# Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions



## EagleEyes

All the discussions for *Chengdu J-10/F-10 Aircraft* here.

Regards.

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## EagleEyes

The Chengdu J-10 (Jian-10, or F-10 in its export name) is a single-engine, all-weather, high-performance multirole fighter aircraft capable of both air-to-air and air-to-ground roles. The aircraft was designed by Chengdu-based 611 Aircraft Design Institute and manufactured by Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAIC). The aircraft is available in single-sear fighter (A variant) and tandem two-seat fighter-trainer (B variant) versions. The aircraft first flew in 1998 and entered the PLA Air Force (PLAAF) service in 2003. About 50~70 examples are expected to have been delivered by 2006. These planes are powered by a Russian-made AL-31FN turbofan engine, while on later production variants this will be replaced by Chinese indigenous WS-10A &#8220;TaiHang&#8221; turbofan. The total number of production may be as many as 300.

The J-10 development programme, also known as &#8220;Project 8610&#8221;, officially began in 1986 to counter the fourth-generation fighters such as MiG-29 and Su-27 then being introduced by the Soviet Union. The aircraft was initially designed as an air-superiority fighter aircraft but changing requirements later shift the development towards a multirole fighter. It was widely speculated that the J-10&#8217;s initial design was based on the cancelled Israeli Aerospace Industry (IAI) Lavi lightweight fighter. Despite the denial by both Chinese and Israelis, the high resemblance of the two aircraft appears to support this claim. Russia provided key assistance to the aircraft development after 1990 by helping Chengdu engineers integrate the Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan engine into the aircraft.

The J-10 is single-engine fighter with a rectangle belly air intake, low-mounted delta wings, and front canard wings. The airframe possesses a large vertical tail, as well as canards placed near the cockpit. The air intake is rectangular in shape, and is located beneath the fuselage. The aircraft is the first Chinese-made fighter to be fitted with a large two-piece bubble canopy to provide 360 degrees of visual coverage for the pilot. If necessary, the aircraft could be fitted with an in-flight refuelling probe.

The J-10 fighter represents the highest achievement of the Chinese aviation industry today. The aircraft achieves high manoeuvrability by using a large amount of composite materials in its fuselage and wing structures to reduce the its overall weight and thus increase the thrust-to-weight ratio. The aircraft design is aerodynamically unstable, to provide a high level of agility, low drag and enhanced lift. The pilot controls the aircraft through a computerised digital, quadruplex (four-channel) &#8220;fly-by-wire&#8221; (FBW) system, which provides artificial stabilisation and gust elevation to give good control characteristics throughout the flight envelope. The aircraft&#8217;s cockpit avionics and fire-control system are also believed to be superior to those of other Chinese indigenous fighter aircraft.

In the late 1990s, the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence estimated that the J-10 could be as manoeuvrable as the U.S. F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. With its advanced &#8220;fly-by-wire&#8221; system, the J-10 may have a better aerodynamic performance compared to the Russian Su-27, which still uses the conventional control method. The Hong Kong-based newspaper Sing Tao Jih Pao reported on 29 May 2004 that during an aerial war game conducted by the PLAAF, the J-10 fighter has beaten the Su-27 fighter in all three rounds of &#8220;dogfight&#8221; in the mid-air.

The J-10A single-seat fighter entered service with the PLAAF in 2003, with 50~70 examples delivered so far. The production continues at a rate of 2~3 units per month. The two-seat variant J-10B joined the service In 2006. The aircraft may become available for export market by 2007~08.









Great overview on the J-10/F-10 Aircraft: 

http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news095.htm

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## F.O.X

Sorry Wrong Info Posted.

I apologise

Regards
Champ


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## F.O.X

J-10

The Chengdu J-10 (Jian-10, or F-10 in its export name) is a single-engine, all-weather, high-performance multirole fighter aircraft capable of both air-to-air and air-to-ground roles. The aircraft was designed by Chengdu-based 611 Aircraft Design Institute and manufactured by Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAIC). The aircraft is available in single-sear fighter (A variant) and tandem two-seat fighter-trainer (B variant) versions. The aircraft first flew in 1998 and entered the PLA Air Force (PLAAF) service in 2003. About 50~70 examples are expected to have been delivered by 2006. These planes are powered by a Russian-made AL-31FN turbofan engine, while on later production variants this will be replaced by Chinese indigenous WS-10A Ã¢â¬ÅTaiHangÃ¢â¬Â turbofan. The total number of production may be as many as 300.

The J-10 development programme, also known as Ã¢â¬ÅProject 8610Ã¢â¬Â, officially began in 1986 to counter the fourth-generation fighters such as MiG-29 and Su-27 then being introduced by the Soviet Union. The aircraft was initially designed as an air-superiority fighter aircraft but changing requirements later shift the development towards a multirole fighter. It was widely speculated that the J-10Ã¢â¬â¢s initial design was based on the cancelled Israeli Aerospace Industry (IAI) Lavi lightweight fighter. Despite the denial by both Chinese and Israelis, the high resemblance of the two aircraft appears to support this claim. Russia provided key assistance to the aircraft development after 1990 by helping Chengdu engineers integrate the Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan engine into the aircraft.

The J-10 is single-engine fighter with a rectangle belly air intake, low-mounted delta wings, and front canard wings. The airframe possesses a large vertical tail, as well as canards placed near the cockpit. The air intake is rectangular in shape, and is located beneath the fuselage. The aircraft is the first Chinese-made fighter to be fitted with a large two-piece bubble canopy to provide 360 degrees of visual coverage for the pilot. If necessary, the aircraft could be fitted with an in-flight refuelling probe.

The J-10 fighter represents the highest achievement of the Chinese aviation industry today. The aircraft achieves high manoeuvrability by using a large amount of composite materials in its fuselage and wing structures to reduce the its overall weight and thus increase the thrust-to-weight ratio. The aircraft design is aerodynamically unstable, to provide a high level of agility, low drag and enhanced lift. The pilot controls the aircraft through a computerised digital, quadruplex (four-channel) Ã¢â¬Åfly-by-wireÃ¢â¬Â (FBW) system, which provides artificial stabilisation and gust elevation to give good control characteristics throughout the flight envelope. The aircraftÃ¢â¬â¢s cockpit avionics and fire-control system are also believed to be superior to those of other Chinese indigenous fighter aircraft.

In the late 1990s, the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence estimated that the J-10 could be as manoeuvrable as the U.S. F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. With its advanced Ã¢â¬Åfly-by-wireÃ¢â¬Â system, the J-10 may have a better aerodynamic performance compared to the Russian Su-27, which still uses the conventional control method. The Hong Kong-based newspaper Sing Tao Jih Pao reported on 29 May 2004 that during an aerial war game conducted by the PLAAF, the J-10 fighter has beaten the Su-27 fighter in all three rounds of Ã¢â¬ÅdogfightÃ¢â¬Â in the mid-air.

The J-10A single-seat fighter entered service with the PLAAF in 2003, with 50~70 examples delivered so far. The production continues at a rate of 2~3 units per month. The two-seat variant J-10B joined the service In 2006. The aircraft may become available for export market by 2007~08.


Weapons

The fixed weapon on the J-10 includes a single-barrel 23mm internal cannon.

The aircraft has 11 stores stations Ã¢â¬â six under the wing and three under the fuselage. The inner wing and centre fuselage stations are plumped to carry external fuel tanks.

The aircraft carries a range of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons for different mission profiles. For interception and air-superiority mission, the aircraft carries the indigenous 2~4 PL-12 active radar-homing medium-range air-to-air missile and 2 PL-8 infrared-homing short-range air-to-air missiles. It is not clear whether the aircraft is equipped with helmet-mounted sight (HMS) but the technology is available.

For ground attack roles, the J-10 will carry 500kg laser-guided bombs (LGB), free-fall bombs, and 90mm unguided rocket launcher pods.

The two front hardpoints under the fuselage can be used to carry target acquisition and navigation pods.


Power Plant

The initial production variant J-10s are powered by the Russian Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan rated at 17,857lb (79.43kN) dry and 27,557lb st (122.58kN) with afterburning. The same powerplant is also being used by the PLAAF's Su-27 and Su-30 fighters. The AL-31FN model used by the J-10 has been specially modified to fit the aircraftÃ¢â¬â¢s fuselage. Lyulka-Saturn delivered 54 AL-31F turbofan engines to China between 2002 and 2004 for the initial batch of the J-10.

In July 2005, China ordered an additional 100 AL-31FN engines for more J-10 productions. Some reports suggested that these could be the improved model with increased thrust and possibly a fully variable, all-aspect thrust vector control (TVC) nozzle. Lyulka-Saturn demonstrated a TVC-equipped AL-31FN during the 2002 Zhuhai Air Show. The TVC capability would further enhance the aircraft's manoeuvrability.

Shenyang-based AVIC1 Aviation Engine Institute has been developing the indigenous WS-10A turbofan engine, which is also known as Ã¢â¬ËTaihangÃ¢â¬â¢ in its commercial name. Reportedly based on some AL-31F technologies, the engine is rated at 73.5kN dry and 110kN with afterburning.

The WS-10A development was completed in December 2005 and the engines may be ready for batch production soon. It was reported that the later variants of the J-10 and J-11 fighters will be powered by the WS-10A.

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10.asp

Regards
Champ

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## Owais

can any one tell me what kind of avionics & radar are used in F-10?


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## Janbaz

Owais said:


> can any one tell me what kind of avionics & radar are used in F-10?


http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news095.htm

Extent of Russian involvement in the J-10 program is significant. In addition to providing the J-10 with the Al-31FN turbojet Russia also offered advanced multifunction radars, navigation and targeting systems, ECM suite, and missile warning and defense systems. Russian avionics manufacturer Phazotron offered China three different radars for the J-10 project. These include the N010 "Zhuk" ("Beetle") and the RP-35 "Zhemchug" ("Pearls"). The "Zhuk" radar ("Zhuk-8-II") has been selected by China for the F-8IIM upgrade program. Over a hundred of these radars were recently sold to China. 

"Zhuk" is a large family of X-band (8 to 12.5 GHz) airborne multimode radars. The radar was originally developed for the MiG-29 tactical fighter but since then a multitude of versions have been produced for MiG-23, Su-27, F-8IIM and other aircraft. Later models of "Zhuk" offer look-up/look-down range-while-search and Track-While-Scan of 10 targets with simultaneous engagement of up to four (two targets for the "Zhuk-8-II"); vertical search; head-up display search; wide-angle search; boresight and automatic terrain avoidance for low-altitude combat operations; real beam ground-mapping; Doppler beam sharpening; synthetic aperture; display enlargement/freeze; TWS on four targets; ground target Moving Target Indicator (MTI)/tracker; air-to-surface ranging and navigation update. Weapons compatibility for "Zhuk" includes the Kh-31A, R-27R1, R-27T1, R-37E and RW-AE missiles. Later models of "Zhuk" such as the "Zhuk-F" offer detection range of up to 200km for a 5 m2 RCS targets with +/- 70 deg angular coverage and detection of 24 targets with simultaneous tracking of 8 targets. The radar weighs between 180 kg and 300 kg depending on the model. 

The most likely candidate for the J-10's future radar is the Phazotron RP-35 "Zhemchug" which is an X-band radar with digital fire-control sensors and an electronically scanning phased-array antenna. The radar features a liquid-cooled traveling wave tube transmitter; an exciter; a three channel microwave receiver and programmable signal and data processors. All critical radar controls for "Zhemchug" are integrated into the aircraft's throttle grip and stick controller and radar data is displayed via the head-up and head-down displays allowing for one-man operation. This radar has an expanded air-to-ground capability and is compatible with a wide range of Russian air-to-air and air-to-ground munitions. 

Another candidate is the Chinese version of the Israeli Elta EL/M-2035 multimode pulse Doppler fire control radar based on the original development by Elta Electronics Industries - a subsidiary of Israel Aircraft Industries Electronics Group. This radar is used on the South African Denel (Atlas) "Cheetah" fighter - a development of the Dassault "Mirage III". The Elta EL/M-2035 radar is based on the 2021B version used by the IAI Kfir-C2 fighter. The radar offers a range of 46km for a 5 m2 RCS target, five air-to-air modes (automatic target acquisition, boresight, look-down, look-up, and track-while-scan) and two air-to-ground modes (beam-sharpened ground mapping and terrain avoidance and sea-search). Originally the Elta EL/M-2035 was developed for the "Lavi" program and after the program's cancellation the radar was offered for export.

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## EagleEyes

How many two seat versions of J-10 are we planning to get?

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## Zeeshan S.

*J-10 Is A Pleasing Fighter Jet, source from China military magazine*

Weinuoqie. Silapanni [Pakistan Test Pilot, I translate the name from Chinese pronunciation, correct me if i'm wrong]:I feel very impressed by his manipulation system, excellent performance and mobility close-air support (CAS) and battlefield interdiction (BAI) , his air combat particularly worthy of praise. 

&#32500;&#35834;&#20999;&#26031;&#25289;&#28504;&#23612;&#65306;&#35797;&#39134;&#20013;&#22269;&#30340;&#27516;10&#25112;&#26007;&#26426;&#65292;&#25105;&#30340;&#24863;&#35273;&#24456;&#22909;&#65292;&#20182;&#30340;&#25805;&#25511;&#31995;&#32479;&#65292;&#24615;&#33021;&#20248;&#24322;&#65292;&#39134;&#20302;&#65293;&#20302;&#65293;&#20302;&#65292;&#25171;&#20987;&#39134;&#34892;&#65292;&#24456;&#29702;&#24819;&#12290;&#26426;&#21160;&#24615;&#33021;&#29305;&#21035;&#20540;&#24471;&#36190;&#36175;

The missile launching system is not in line with my habit, but its easy to operate, the reliability is very good. Compare to F-16 I flied, the reaction speed is a bit faster. 

&#23548;&#24377;&#21457;&#23556;&#31995;&#32479;&#25163;&#25345;&#23039;&#24577;&#65292;&#19981;&#22826;&#31526;&#21512;&#25105;&#30340;&#20064;&#24815;&#65292;&#20294;&#26159;&#65292;&#25805;&#20316;&#31616;&#20415;&#65292;&#21487;&#38752;&#24615;&#20063;&#26159;&#24456;&#19981;&#38169;&#12290;&#23545;&#27604;&#25105;&#35797;&#39134;&#30340;F16&#25112;&#26007;&#26426;&#26469;&#35828;&#65292;&#21453;&#24212;&#36895;&#24230;&#27604;&#27516;10&#35201;&#24930;&#19968;&#20123;&#12290;

J-10 is uniquely designed to compatible with American missiles, the radar scanning distance is very close with F-16. Compare with F16 the resolution is slightly low probability . However, the cockpit design is very modern, compared with the early F16AB, I can have to say it is far beyond.

&#27516;10&#30340;&#35266;&#30596;&#31995;&#32479;&#35774;&#35745;&#19978;&#21313;&#20998;&#29420;&#29305;&#65292;&#20182;&#21487;&#20197;&#26377;&#25928;&#20860;&#23481;&#65292;&#25105;&#20204;&#30446;&#21069;&#20351;&#29992;&#30340;&#22810;&#31181;&#31867;&#22411;&#32654;&#22269;&#24418;&#24335;&#30340;&#23548;&#24377;&#65292;&#38647;&#36798;&#25195;&#25551;&#36317;&#31163;&#19982;F16&#27604;&#36739;&#25509;&#36817;&#12290;&#20998;&#36776;&#29575;&#27010;&#29575;&#36739;&#20043;F16&#30053;&#26377;&#19981;&#36275;&#12290;&#20294;&#26159;&#65292;&#24231;&#33329;&#35774;&#35745;&#21313;&#20998;&#29616;&#20195;&#65292;&#23545;&#27604;&#26089;&#26399;&#30340;F16AB&#26469;&#35828;&#65292;&#21487;&#20197;&#35828;&#23436;&#20840;&#36229;&#36234;&#12290;

The combat radius range to 1,100 km , with drop tanks the range can extend to 1,300 kilometers; Afterburner system is runing very attractive smooth. Resonance within relatively small, compare to F16AB. 

&#21152;&#21147;&#31995;&#32479;&#24037;&#20316;&#21313;&#20998;&#39034;&#30021;&#65292;&#24320;&#21551;&#21152;&#21147;&#24231;&#33329;&#20869;&#20565;&#21516;&#38663;&#21160;&#27010;&#29575;&#27604;&#36739;&#20302;&#65292;&#27604;&#36739;&#33298;&#36866;&#12290;&#27604;F16B&#30340;&#20849;&#25391;&#65292;&#35201;&#33298;&#36866;&#24456;&#22810;&#12290;&#27604;&#36739;&#36866;&#21512;&#24555;&#36895;&#31361;&#38450;&#20351;&#29992;&#20316;&#25112;&#12290;&#33322;&#31243;&#26041;&#38754;&#20182;&#22823;&#20110;F16&#30340;900&#20844;&#37324;&#20316;&#25112;&#21322;&#24452;&#65292;&#21487;&#20197;&#24310;&#20280;&#21040;1100&#20844;&#37324;&#12290;&#21152;&#35013;2&#24231;&#21103;&#27833;&#31665;&#21487;&#20197;&#25552;&#39640;&#21040;1300&#20844;&#37324;&#12290;

Electronic sensor system seems slightly inadequate, particularly lack of rapid opening butterfly-lock-twisting incockpit . repairation is very tedious once, the transient fault. 

&#30005;&#20256;&#31995;&#32479;&#65292;&#30053;&#26174;&#19981;&#36275;&#65292;&#29305;&#21035;&#26159;&#26426;&#33329;&#20869;&#32570;&#20047;&#24555;&#36895;&#24320;&#21551;&#34678;&#22411;&#38145;&#25197;&#12290;&#19968;&#26086;&#20986;&#29616;&#26242;&#26102;&#24615;&#25925;&#38556;&#65292;&#20462;&#22797;&#21313;&#20998;&#32321;&#29712;&#12290;&#25805;&#20316;&#36719;&#20214;&#65292;&#30446;&#21069;&#26159;&#20013;&#33521;&#25991;&#31995;&#32479;&#65292;&#27809;&#26377;&#25105;&#22269;&#25991;&#23383;&#31995;&#32479;&#12290;&#20294;&#26159;&#65292;&#33521;&#25991;&#20063;&#26159;&#25105;&#20204;&#21487;&#20197;&#24456;&#22909;&#30340;&#25509;&#21463;&#30340;&#35821;&#35328;&#12290;

System software can supoort Chinese/English. However, English is also an acceptable language for us.

&#19979;&#35270;&#19982;&#21518;&#35270;&#33021;&#21147;&#65292;&#26159;&#20182;&#30340;&#20027;&#35201;&#29305;&#28857;&#65292;&#20320;&#26080;&#38656;&#22312;&#24231;&#33329;&#20869;&#65292;&#22312;&#22235;&#22788;&#35266;&#26395;&#65292;&#36890;&#36807;&#26174;&#31034;&#23631;&#20320;&#21487;&#20197;&#35266;&#23519;&#21040;&#21518;&#37096;&#65292;&#19979;&#37096;&#65292;&#20219;&#24847;&#35282;&#24230;&#30340;&#35270;&#35282;&#65292;&#36825;&#26679;&#65292;&#22312;&#25112;&#26007;&#20013;&#65292;&#25171;&#20987;&#25932;&#20154;&#21313;&#20998;&#20415;&#21033;&#12290;&#30446;&#21069;&#21360;&#24230;&#24341;&#36827;&#30340;&#29983;&#20135;&#30340;SU27MKK&#26426;&#22411;&#65292;&#20063;&#24102;&#26377;&#19979;&#35270;&#33021;&#21147;&#65292;&#20294;&#26159;&#21518;&#35270;&#33021;&#21147;&#19981;&#36275;&#12290;

J-10 has full vision of backsight while Su27mkk 's backsight is weak.

Data transmission systems of J-10 's is more complicated, it is not easy to master . possibiy due to China has to accompany a variety of early-warning radar systems, in our country, some of its functions can be eliminated accordingly to our early-warning radar link.

&#25968;&#25454;&#20256;&#36755;&#31995;&#32479;&#27516;10&#26174;&#24471;&#27604;&#36739;&#22797;&#26434;&#65292;&#19981;&#23481;&#26131;&#24555;&#36895;&#20351;&#29992;&#65292;&#20294;&#26159;&#36825;&#19982;&#30446;&#21069;&#20013;&#22269;&#31354;&#20891;&#37197;&#23646;&#30340;&#22810;&#31181;&#39044;&#35686;&#38647;&#36798;&#31995;&#32479;&#26377;&#20851;&#65292;&#22914;&#26524;&#22312;&#25105;&#20204;&#22269;&#23478;&#65292;&#21017;&#20250;&#20943;&#23569;&#20854;&#19968;&#20123;&#30456;&#24212;&#21151;&#33021;&#65292;&#20197;&#36866;&#21512;&#25105;&#20204;&#20026;&#25968;&#19981;&#22810;&#30340;&#39044;&#35686;&#38647;&#36798;&#36830;&#25509;&#31995;&#32479;&#12290;
Finally, I think that in combat, When I can pilot it out to fight our enemy ,Depend on the excellent air mobility, superior electronic fire control system. and the performance of the long-range precision-guided weapons, Add with my experience , I do think. My enemy should be ready to become a "droop angle spiral slide in air," they have no chance of survival. 

&#26368;&#21518;&#25105;&#35748;&#20026;&#65292;&#22914;&#26524;&#22312;&#25112;&#26007;&#20013;&#65292;&#25105;&#21487;&#20197;&#39550;&#39542;&#23427;&#21069;&#20986;&#36814;&#20987;&#23545;&#25163;&#65292;&#37027;&#20040;&#25105;&#35748;&#20026;&#65292;&#20381;&#38752;&#27516;10&#20248;&#24322;&#33391;&#22909;&#30340;&#31354;&#20013;&#26426;&#21160;&#33021;&#21147;&#65292;&#36229;&#21069;&#30340;&#30005;&#23376;&#35774;&#22791;&#31995;&#32479;&#65292;&#20197;&#21450;&#31934;&#30830;&#21046;&#23548;&#27494;&#22120;&#30340;

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## Alex

WS-10 was completed,no Al-31FN

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## honor2001cn

who want to see j-10 new picture more than 20 pics.link is http://military.club.china.com/jsp/pub/staticFile/htmls/2007/1/1011/7088281_page0.html

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## Iceman2

welcoem to pakistani forum bro! enjoy ur stay here.


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## vnomad

Janbaz said:


> http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news095.htm
> Another candidate is the Chinese version of the Israeli Elta EL/M-2035 multimode pulse Doppler fire control radar based on the original development by Elta Electronics Industries - a subsidiary of Israel Aircraft Industries Electronics Group. Originally the Elta EL/M-2035 was developed for the "Lavi" program and after the program's cancellation the radar was offered for export.


Shouldn't this be the EL/M-2032. I've never heard of an Elta-2035.


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## Keysersoze

vnomad said:


> Shouldn't this be the EL/M-2032. I've never heard of an Elta-2035.



This might help a bit.....

Elta EL/M-2035 Multi-Mode Pulse Doppler Radar

The Elta EL/M-2035 multi-mode pulse-Doppler radar was a development of the Elta EL/M-2021B multi-mode Doppler radar of the IAI Kfir-C2. The radar was very advanced and had a coherent transmitter and a stable multi-channel receiver for reliable look-down performance over a broad band of frequencies and for high resolution mapping. An Elta programmable signal processor, backed by a distributed, embedded computer network, would provide optimum allocation of computing power and great flexibility for growth and the updating of algorithims and systems growth.

The radar could provide speed and position of targets in the air and on the ground, and could provide the pilot with a map of the terrain the Lavi was overflying. It could track several targets at 46 km distance in at least five air-to-air modes (automatic target aquisition, boresight, look down, look up and track while scan (TWS)). The radar had at least two air-to-ground modes (beam-sharpened ground mapping/terrain avoidance and sea search). After the cancellation of the Lavi programme the radar was offered for multi-role fighter retrofits, including the Denel Cheetah E. 

http://www.combatsim.com/archive/htm/htm_arc3/lavi2.htm

Another candidate is the Chinese version of the Israeli Elta EL/M-2035 multimode pulse Doppler fire control radar based on the original development by Elta Electronics Industries - a subsidiary of Israel Aircraft Industries Electronics Group. This radar is used on the South African Denel (Atlas) "Cheetah" fighter - a development of the Dassault "Mirage III". The Elta EL/M-2035 radar is based on the 2021B version used by the IAI Kfir-C2 fighter. The radar offers a range of 46km for a 5 m2 RCS target, five air-to-air modes (automatic target acquisition, boresight, look-down, look-up, and track-while-scan) and two air-to-ground modes (beam-sharpened ground mapping and terrain avoidance and sea-search). Originally the Elta EL/M-2035 was developed for the "Lavi" program and after the program's cancellation the radar was offered for export. 

http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/j-10/j-10.htm


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

I saw the J-10 video clip in california today on CNN.

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## Neo

This is a fresh release Mastan, PFF special.  

Thanks to Munir!

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=8869512750983413810

:ChinaFlag: :flag:

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## vnomad

keysersoze said:


> This might help a bit.....
> 
> Elta EL/M-2035 Multi-Mode Pulse Doppler Radar


Mmmm .... thanks. This is enlightening.


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## xulei

F-10 is a good aircraft.
But his enemy from F-16 changed to F-22 and F-35.
So,Chengdu must develop F-13 or F-14.

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## Owais

xulei said:


> F-10 is a good aircraft.
> But his enemy from F-16 changed to F-22 and F-35.
> So,Chengdu must develop F-13 or F-14.



it will take atleast 10 years to develope F-13.



Neo said:


> This is a fresh release Mastan, PFF special.
> 
> Thanks to Munir!
> 
> http://video.google.nl/videoplay?doc...12750983413810


that link is giving error on page.:wall:


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## alamgir

can some one tell me about klj_15 chines next radar for j10


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## niaz

I have just watched the video, except for the 'Chin' air intake. The aircraft resembles SAAB Viggen a lot. Must be due to the large 'canard'. No matter, it looks awesome. Does any one know if it has thrust vectoring ?


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## xulei

Owais said:


> it will take atleast 10 years to develope F-13.
> 
> 
> that link is giving error on page.:wall:



Maybe you are right,Maybe more than 10 years.But we will try our best to reach the aim.

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## falcone

The thrust-vecotring engine is being developed (or maybe it is being actively tested now). If I recall properly, the thrust-vectoring version of the WS-13 is nearing completion or has been completed. In any case, it seems that the J-10 will eventually have thrust vectoring (although the aircraft with thrust vectoring maybe the Super 10). 

Does anyone know whether the four hard-points on the intake of the J-10 can hold air-to-air missiles or can they only hold the free-fall bombs shown in the drawings?


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## falcone

I just remembered: does the J-10 have a passively phased array radar, an active electronically phased array radar, or a plain old pusle-doppler radar?


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## Owais

falcone said:


> I just remembered: does the J-10 have a passively phased array radar, an active electronically phased array radar, or a plain old pusle-doppler radar?



The radar equipping the J-10 is not yet known; possibly, candidates it uses Russian RP-35, the Israeli EL/M-2035 or chinese KLJ-3 pulse-Doppler fire-control radar.


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## falcone

Thanks!:flag: :army:


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## Adux

Owais said:


> The radar equipping the J-10 is not yet known; possibly, candidates it uses Russian RP-35, the Israeli EL/M-2035 or chinese KLJ-3 pulse-Doppler fire-control radar.



Source for this please, EL/M-2035 for China.


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## PakSniper

Adux said:


> Source for this please, EL/M-2035 for China.



http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/j-10/j-10.htm



> The radar for the J-10 is not yet selected, options include the N010 Zhuk and RP-35 Zehmchug by Russian avionics manufacturer Phazotron or the Israeli Elta EL/M-2035 radar, which was originally developed for the Lavi.



Note: Some time you Indias need to search on your own, it's said this everywhere if you look up J-10 Radar on google,. and sometimes trust people with what they say, instead of going to sources, we pakistani's been reading up on J-10s everytime possible, etc.

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## xulei

In China,Someone says our country will provide J-10 for Pakistan,the number is 36,really?

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## EagleEyes

xulei said:


> In China,Someone says our country will provide J-10 for Pakistan,the number is 36,really?



Yes, or the number could be up to 50!

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## xulei

WebMaster said:


> Yes, or the number could be up to 50!



Very good.As our ally,Pakistan ought to get the newest jet. 
In addition, someone said the jets is improved type.

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## Adux

dragonking786 said:


> http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/j-10/j-10.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Note: Some time you Indias need to search on your own, it's said this everywhere if you look up J-10 Radar on google,. and sometimes trust people with what they say, instead of going to sources, we pakistani's been reading up on J-10s everytime possible, etc.



you call that a valid link


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## Keysersoze

Adux said:


> you call that a valid link



Dude I provided a couple of links regarding the el/m 2035 radar a few pages back.
The design of the aircraft is a lot like the Lavi so it makes sense to have that radar as an option. It is also available for export.


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## Adux

Keys,

Israeli assitance to China has stopped following US intervention. I am looking for the link, it started from the Phalcon deal to China being cancelled by the US. Though there has been considerable weapon technology sales to China in the past, it is not so now.


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## PakSniper

Makes you indians any happy I will give a link to a indian website..

http://members.tripod.com/israindia/isr/July25/index.html

Info is on the right hand side bottom. If you don't like the link ask Keys' or go suck on a banana.

And yes the link I gave first is a valid link., on mostly all fighter jets.

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## falcone

I know that the J-10 has inflight refueling capability. Does anyone know whether it has a retractrable fueling probe or not?


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## Neo

xulei said:


> In China,Someone says our country will provide J-10 for Pakistan,the number is 36,really?



Initially we need 36 of these aircrafts but infact PAF needs 400 new aircraft to replace existing ageing fleet.
150 JF-17 will be inducted to replace the Mirage 3/5's, so there's another 250 aircraft to be ordered to replace the J-7 and AQ-5's.


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## Bull

Neo said:


> Initially we need 36 of these aircrafts but infact PAF needs 400 new aircraft to replace existing ageing fleet.
> 150 JF-17 will be inducted to replace the Mirage 3/5's, so there's another 250 aircraft to be ordered to replace the J-7 and AQ-5's.



Order 150 more JF -17, if its so good and path-breaking why restrict it to 150 only. Its damn cheap also compared to other fighters.So you need to buy more of it.

So you will have totally 300 JF-17 and order another 40 or so J-10.

Isnt that a good deal?


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## Adux

I dont how people over here assume That technological gap will decrease when all the facts and evidence states otherwise. The number of force-multipliers as well new projects are more in india than in pakistan. Non- of the JF-17's have been inducted as yet, J-10 production is only dream now as PLAAF needs them, what you have for sure is the F-16. A darn good fighter Jet, But there 3 better or equal jets in indian side for very F-16.

How Pakistan can employ its assets better and more efficiently than India's, I dont get it.beats me?


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## pah571

thx for translation,&#30475;&#33521;&#35821;&#30495;&#35201;&#21629;


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## Munir

Initial batch JF17 = 150 and J10 = 36...

Like a normal nation buys it goes through batches and improvements cause it is a new fighter. It isn't a tested su27 that is converted into MKI... It is a brand new plane that will evolve.

Even China bought their Flankers in certain batches and versions... Just like USA had a mix from block15 towards block52...


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## salman77

J-10's use Russian-made AL-31FN turbofan engine, while on later production variants the powerplant will be replaced by a Chinese indigenous WS-10A &#8220;TaiHang&#8221; turbofan. _*Does that mean we won't be getting the J-10's either, until they r replaced by Chinese engines.*_


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## Contrarian

Probably, but J-10's are far off as of now. JF-17's are the planes that Pakistan is focussing on.


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## Contrarian

Munir said:


> Initial batch JF17 = 150 and J10 = 36...
> 
> Like a normal nation buys it goes through batches and improvements cause it is a new fighter. It isn't a tested su27 that is converted into MKI... It is a brand new plane that will evolve.
> 
> Even China bought their Flankers in certain batches and versions... Just like USA had a mix from block15 towards block52...



As did India buy its Su-30 planes. The initial planes bought from Russia were just Su-30K and MK. They were later evolved in the MKI.


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## Lilo

falcone said:


> I know that the J-10 has inflight refueling capability. Does anyone know whether it has a retractrable fueling probe or not?



it has a retractable fuel probe, ive seen it in a video.


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## falcone

Thanks Lilo!


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## Munir

Lilo said:


> it has a retractable fuel probe, ive seen it in a video.



it has not... Just watch my video...

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=8869512750983413810


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## Keysersoze

Munir said:


> it has not... Just watch my video...
> 
> http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=8869512750983413810



Then what is it doing 1.51 mins into the video?


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## Abs

keysersoze said:


> Then what is it doing 1.51 mins into the video?



at 1.51 it is refueling but its not retractable. 
look at 2.00 minutes, its flying with the fuel probe out, its external.

it does have a fuel probe that can be externally fixed onto the aircraft should the mission require in flight refueling. 

quote from sinodefence:

'If necessary, the aircraft could be fitted with an in-flight refuelling probe'. if it was retractable it would always carry it in the aircraft. 

sinodefence


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## Lilo

Abs said:


> at 1.51 it is refueling but its not retractable.
> look at 2.00 minutes, its flying with the fuel probe out, its external.
> 
> it does have a fuel probe that can be externally fixed onto the aircraft should the mission require in flight refueling.
> 
> quote from sinodefence:
> 
> 'If necessary, the aircraft could be fitted with an in-flight refuelling probe'. if it was retractable it would always carry it in the aircraft.
> 
> sinodefence



Ohh my bad, i thought that was a retractable one


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## falcone

Thank you all for all of your clarifications. Yes, the J-10 has a non-retractable refeuling probe.


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## JK!

On the 29th of December 2006 J10 was officially declassified.

Heres the link http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10news.asp

Also check out the artist conception pics on wikipedia of Super 10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super-10

Wikipedia mentions a couple of serious drawbacks of the indeginous chinese engines. 
The most serious is it cannot match the Russian engine in the time to reach its performance. Also it lacks FADEC which is the digital control of the engine.

The source given for these on wikipedia is an interview with Test Pilots


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## PakSniper

Bring the origiinal source Wikipedia alone doesn't confirm anything it's not very reliable, and I checked the reference list and nothing on their leads to the article about the interview with the test pilot.


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## Abs

JK! said:


> Wikipedia mentions a couple of serious drawbacks of the indeginous chinese engines.
> The most serious is it cannot match the Russian engine in the time to reach its performance. Also it lacks FADEC which is the digital control of the engine.



wikipedia is talking about the WS10, but the engine that will equip the J10's in the future is WS10A 'Taihang'. 

the WS10 did fail to meet the requirments and match the russian engine but the WS10A recitifes all these problems. and it's also complete, its been tested and formally certificated and given the name 'Taihang'.

WS10A

don't know how reliable the source is, was origonally in chinese and google translator isn't always that accurate.

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## falcone

Here is a link about the J-10's powerplant from sinodefence.com:

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10powerplant.asp .


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## falcone

Here is a picture of the WS-10A from sinodefence.com:


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## ishaqnoor17

j-10 is goooooooooooooood!


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## kidwaibhai

when will the j-10 be inducted into the pakistani airforce


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## Owais

kidwaibhai said:


> when will the j-10 be inducted into the pakistani airforce



PAF didnot ordered F-10 yet.
we have to wait till IAF's 126MRCA deal is finalised.


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## Contrarian

Owais said:


> PAF didnot ordered F-10 yet.
> we have to wait till IAF's 126MRCA deal is finalised.


Why??
.....


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## Munir

Then Russia would not have to face the whinging about the engine of the J10 like it had with JF17.

1 + 1 = 2


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## Keysersoze

malaymishra123 said:


> Why??
> .....



Or maybe they want to see what they have to counter first?


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## Contrarian

keysersoze said:


> Or maybe they want to see what they have to counter first?



But say India goes for MiG 35 the entire way. I mean all orders for MiG 35. How does that Change the decision of which a/c to buy?? I mean only J-10 is on offer right? China has no other planes. J-10 has just come out. it will take some time to mature, it will also evolve a lot. So i'l say J-10's journey has just begun...


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## Munir

Pakistan was intrested in Mirage 2000... So India went to rance to stop Pakistan and buy lots of Mirages 2000... Never Happened. Pakistan wanted to buy Gripen and India went to Sweden to stop Pakistan and buy lots of Gripen... Never Happened. India did the same tactic with Lockheed and F16... They even started daydreaming about Block 70 special for India... Never happened cause they now say that they only want double engined plane...

The problem is that Indian mentallity is based on inderiority complexes. They cannot look at themself... Almost every nation aroud India is irritated... Pakistan (Kashmir)... Ceylon/Sri Lanka (Tamil terrrorism support from India)... Bangladesh... China.... And still it is India that is world democracy... Or India that is capable to be superpower and prosuce latest tech... Reality is that India is a failed nation with lots of internal struggles. India failed to produce a decent tank (Ajun), missiles (Trishul), Ballistic missiles, world smallest fighterjet (LCA)...

Sp basicly I have here a nationalistic country failing in every direction... Cool. The fact that it is so Pakistan oriented is that it will never be able to compete againt something of its own size... Hell, even with more quality and quantity it cannot force Pakistan. Now Pakistan is developing a lot more and now even without assistance... While India runs from Russia to France to Israel...


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## Adux

Munir said:


> Pakistan was intrested in Mirage 2000... So India went to rance to stop Pakistan and buy lots of Mirages 2000... Never Happened. Pakistan wanted to buy Gripen and India went to Sweden to stop Pakistan and buy lots of Gripen... Never Happened. India did the same tactic with Lockheed and F16... They even started daydreaming about Block 70 special for India... Never happened cause they now say that they only want double engined plane...
> 
> The problem is that Indian mentallity is based on inderiority complexes. They cannot look at themself... Almost every nation aroud India is irritated... Pakistan (Kashmir)... Ceylon/Sri Lanka (Tamil terrrorism support from India)... Bangladesh... China.... And still it is India that is world democracy... Or India that is capable to be superpower and prosuce latest tech... Reality is that India is a failed nation with lots of internal struggles. India failed to produce a decent tank (Ajun), missiles (Trishul), Ballistic missiles, world smallest fighterjet (LCA)...
> 
> Sp basicly I have here a nationalistic country failing in every direction... Cool. The fact that it is so Pakistan oriented is that it will never be able to compete againt something of its own size... Hell, even with more quality and quantity it cannot force Pakistan. Now Pakistan is developing a lot more and now even without assistance... While India runs from Russia to France to Israel...



Awwww, I wouldnt call chinese development as Pakistani's.
Technological and Educational base of India is far superior to pakistan, instaead of ranting, do something constructive to improve your situation


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## Munir

I am ranting? You are pathetic. The usual blaiming and arrogance. Did you reply to anything I said? FY.


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## EagleEyes

Adux said:


> Awwww, I wouldnt call chinese development as Pakistani's.
> Technological and Educational base of India is far superior to pakistan, instaead of ranting, do something constructive to improve your situation



Nice way to continue my friend. 

You dont have any idea about technological nor educational base of Pakistan.

Plus, putting it as a cake that Chinese development isn't a Pakistani development, please counter the arguments which are already stated.


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## Adux

WebMaster said:


> Nice way to continue my friend.
> 
> You dont have any idea about technological nor educational base of Pakistan.
> 
> Plus, putting it as a cake that Chinese development isn't a Pakistani development, please counter the arguments which are already stated.



it is your assumption that i dont know much Pakistani development and educational base,

take this case

Only 40 Sukhoi's are going to be bought from Russia, so as to increase the speed of deployment, and an already ageing and depleting fleet the rest is already being made here amounting upto 190 or so.

For which Munir, stated the whole of Suk-30MKi production line is going to be taken to Russia. Doesnt that show his grasp of the situation, he has been baiting and going unchecked for a long time


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## Adux

And it is also ur assumption that being in Glasgow, i would have never had any Pakistani friends or contacts, 
Every textbook in India, blames the indian government for loosing 1962 war/battle with China. First thing for a country to progress "Self introspection"; we had a kargil commision lamblasting the indian amry for its intelligence lapse, how much time did u take for setting up a commision, 
let me guess: all the fault lies with indian deception, along with evil jews and USA not supporting you.

I am sorry, I find this a very pathectic attitude.

Adu


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## Contrarian

Munir said:


> Pakistan was intrested in Mirage 2000... So India went to rance to stop Pakistan and buy lots of Mirages 2000... Never Happened. Pakistan wanted to buy Gripen and India went to Sweden to stop Pakistan and buy lots of Gripen... Never Happened. India did the same tactic with Lockheed and F16... They even started daydreaming about Block 70 special for India... Never happened cause they now say that they only want double engined plane...
> 
> The problem is that Indian mentallity is based on inderiority complexes. They cannot look at themself... Almost every nation aroud India is irritated... Pakistan (Kashmir)... Ceylon/Sri Lanka (Tamil terrrorism support from India)... Bangladesh... China.... And still it is India that is world democracy... Or India that is capable to be superpower and prosuce latest tech... Reality is that India is a failed nation with lots of internal struggles. India failed to produce a decent tank (Ajun), missiles (Trishul), Ballistic missiles, world smallest fighterjet (LCA)...
> 
> Sp basicly I have here a nationalistic country failing in every direction... Cool. The fact that it is so Pakistan oriented is that it will never be able to compete againt something of its own size... Hell, even with more quality and quantity it cannot force Pakistan. Now Pakistan is developing a lot more and now even without assistance... While India runs from Russia to France to Israel...



"I can rape your comments on technical grounds"

Webby, this is just baiting to start a flame war. This guy has NO knowledge whatsoever about anything, all he does is rant.


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## Adux

Webby

Munir is baiting for a reason, not cuz he is hot headed in front of the computer; he is going to taunt the indians so much that they become exactly like him which inturn make situations that would hurt your sentiments,as you are a pakistani yourself and plus everybody has their own prejudices, only talking and understanding each other can eliminate it. He is one of those people who would like to generalize a whole set of people according to his point of view to further his own agenda. He is deliberatly twisting facts and going around in circle so as to make a confrontation and force you to take a side. In the end this Board would be exactly like PDF; The Major reason Neo and You made this board was not to become like PDF.

Adu


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## alamgir

Adux said:


> And it is also ur assumption that being in Glasgow, i would have never had any Pakistani friends or contacts,
> Every textbook in India, blames the indian government for loosing 1962 war/battle with China. First thing for a country to progress "Self introspection"; we had a kargil commision lamblasting the indian amry for its intelligence lapse, how much time did u take for setting up a commision,
> let me guess: all the fault lies with indian deception, along with evil jews and USA not supporting you.
> 
> I am sorry, I find this a very pathectic attitude.
> 
> Adu


 if only you not see a pakistani in glasgow not mean that pakistani not get higher edu.and tell me the result of these commision what happen about the commision of sikh genocide in dehli no on accused which show how much effective these commisions


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## Adux

alamgir said:


> if only you not see a pakistani in glasgow not mean that pakistani not get higher edu.and tell me the result of these commision what happen about the commision of sikh genocide in dehli no on accused which show how much effective these commisions



Politics, I wil not offer defence, People killed sikhs cuz of indira gandhi assasiantion as well as the radical freedom movement funded by Pakistan, And the ministers did not do anything..Its a shameful part of our history, there are two sides to the coin always, but i will not defend what the mob did. Its a very similar to the Prophet's (PBUH) cartoon issue in Pakistan, could you control it.

You are deviating from the Topic into a political one, In case of Kargil; the government already held the army accountable.


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## Contrarian

alamgir said:


> if only you not see a pakistani in glasgow not mean that pakistani not get higher edu.and tell me the result of these commision what happen about the commision of sikh genocide in dehli no on accused which show how much effective these commisions



I believe he was comparing Pakistan's educational base "with repect to India" not whether Pakistani citizen in general gets higher education or not.
How does Sikh Genocide come in between?


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## Adux

alamgir said:


> if only you not see a pakistani in glasgow not mean that pakistani not get higher edu.and tell me the result of these commision what happen about the commision of sikh genocide in dehli no on accused which show how much effective these commisions



Ps: I met Pakistani's who were doing thier masters,and some of them were my classmates not some Kebab shop owner..They are very close to me. I know about the ground realities in pakistan a lot. Things are improving and I wish you the best,


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## alamgir

malaymishra123 said:


> I believe he was comparing Pakistan's educational base "with repect to India" not whether Pakistani citizen in general gets higher education or not.
> How does Sikh Genocide come in between?



you read carefuly his post,according to him every odd thing happen in india is going under a commision. for educational base i think you go to see in educational threat


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## Adux

alamgir said:


> you read carefuly his post,according to him every odd thing happen in india is going under a commision. for educational base i think you go to see in educational threat



Where did I say everything, dont twist my post for your convience. I have been honest and forthcoming, atleast show the respect for the same


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## Contrarian

alamgir said:


> you read carefuly his post,according to him every odd thing happen in india is going under a commision.



Well...i dunno whether he said it or not, but every odd thing does indeed gets studied by a commision in India !
Most of them are good, with some being exceptions, not even exceptions about 4 or 5 of such cases, when the commisions didnt give any report after a long time or such. The commisions only give their findings, they have no legal authority to act on any matter.

They will study the problem upside down in a neutral manner, and come out with reasons, faults, true facts and finally recommendations. They have the legal authority to complete their task, that is to study everything about the task assigned to them. Then its upto the govt to act upon it, or accept or reject the recommendations.

The Kargil commitee came out blasting the army for intelligence failure, gave the exact nature of intrusions, gave the information as to how the Kargil invasion came about, how it first got reported. The complete lack of co-ordination between the army and air force, etc, etc. It was good stuff.


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## Munir

I think that Kargill on the Pakistani side seems to have the same conclusions. No communication between PA and PAF...  We share so much....


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## Adux

Oh, this is hillarious


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## Contrarian

There have been NO commisions or studies on Kargil in Pakistan. Absolutely none apart from public mud throwing matches between politicians.


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## falcone

So... any deal yet on the J-10 aircraft?


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## Abramdy.shao

Come here,there has lots of J-10 pictures in chinese military forum!
http://junshi.daqi.com/bbs/00/1093166.html


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## Confucius

J10&#12288; 7.X&#12288;tons&#12288;initiated 86-87&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;equipped 2003
&#24635;&#36733;&#27833;~&#26426;&#20869;&#27833;&#32422;3500kg+3&#20010;&#21103;&#27833;&#31665;&#20849;&#21487;&#35013;&#32422;3500kg=&#32422;7000kg&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#65288;oil&#65289;
========================================================
J1X&#12288;1X.&#12288;tons&#12288;initiated 200X(X&#65308;3&#65289;&#12288;&#12288;first flight 2010-2011&#12288;&#12288;equipped 201X&#65288;X&#65310;6) 
maximum take off weight 3X tons&#12288;&#12288;maximum thrust 17X-18XKN&#12288;&#12288;&#25512;&#27604;&#65310;&#65297;&#65296;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;&#12288;RCS 0.0X-0.08

========================================================
Now the most important thing for our fourth generation plane is the engine ,maybe we can use the improved "TaiHang" for a while ,a new engine is on the pipeline .


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## Confucius

HOW to edit the post?


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## Muradk

My friend you can just press edit and delete the post . 
If Iam not wrong we have a lot of info on J-10 on the forum you just need to look fot it.


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## w&n

I strongly support China to sell pakistan J10. I heard that some deals have been going on there. Does anybody have information about it?


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## Keysersoze

I believe any deal will be made after the Indian MRCA tender. With a Initial purchase of 30-40 aircraft which will be increased there after.


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## Adux

How can you compare LCA to The J-10, J-10 is a superior aircraft with superior range and payload. While LCA is a point Defence Fighter. You have a good chance of the J-10 and the Su-30MKI crossing the Himalayals, While LCA will be a compeltly a defence fighter, for the incoming attackers.


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## Keysersoze

Adux said:


> How can you compare LCA to The J-10, J-10 is a superior aircraft with superior range and payload. While LCA is a point Defence Fighter. You have a good chance of the J-10 and the Su-30MKI crossing the Himalayals, While LCA will be a compeltly a defence fighter, for the incoming attackers.



Dude did you post this in the right thread? I can't see anyone comparing anything here??????There was a thing about Kargil which was a bit random......


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## Adux

keysersoze said:


> Dude did you post this in the right thread? I can't see anyone comparing anything here??????There was a thing about Kargil which was a bit random......



true true, saw the title and the last and posted, only after went thru the previous pages, i came to know about the thread, and i have already posted here.
kargill is a like salt in food for us desi's, we need it in very thread


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## EagleEyes

What do you guys think about the acquisitions of J-10? Is it a good idea, seeing that Pakistan is now trying to improve its JF-17 on par to the J-10 in terms of being modern and latest. I think it will send out a bad signal if we procure J-10. What are your views on this?


----------



## Owais

WebMaster said:


> What do you guys think about the acquisitions of J-10? Is it a good idea, seeing that Pakistan is now trying to improve its JF-17 on par to the J-10 in terms of being modern and latest. I think it will send out a bad signal if we procure J-10. What are your views on this?



webby, J-10 can be used as bombing purpose where as JF-17 ia a light weight, air defence fighter. if western electronics with AESA Radar are slected for F-10 with WS-10A engine, then PAF definately need that kind of fighter in huge numbers to balance india's 126 MRCAs (F-18E/F)


----------



## Neo

WebMaster said:


> What do you guys think about the acquisitions of J-10? Is it a good idea, seeing that Pakistan is now trying to improve its JF-17 on par to the J-10 in terms of being modern and latest. I think it will send out a bad signal if we procure J-10. What are your views on this?



Its definately a good idea to purchase J-10/FC-20 in great numbers and Imho its not linked to the capabilites of the JF-17.

We need to replace 380+ fighets in different roles by 2015, JF-17 won't be enough but will certainly claim half the number.

FC-20 has greater range, more powerfull engines and higher payload, it can be used for interdict strike and deep peneteration whereas JF-17 will specialise in Air Defence and Air Superiority and Close Support roles.

To create a relaible force without being too vulnrable to santions (or a temp grounding of the fleet) we need to have atleast three platforms. F-16, JF-17 and FC-20 will create that force till 2020.
By then we'll be looking into Stealth...


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## Neo

Munir also hinted on the Block II variant of the JF-17, a project still under development and I won't be surprised that the drawings you posted earlier will become reality.

With JF-17 we have a good platform, its designed to integrate new systems on 'plug and go' base so basically we can take it further without Chinese assistance.
Here's where our true strenght lies, adapting and improvising the designs.


----------



## pg7

in many of our arguments, we want to balance out india on one to one basis which i think is misconception. in fact what we should possess is the kind of air force arsenal which can protect our land and naval assets preventing indians from inflicting heavy losses without losing their aircrafts. for this purpose we need not to strike deep in india nor should this be our motive. what we require is aircrafts which good point defencers and can destroy the indian assets within 200km range. aeroplanes like typhoon, eurofighters etc are beasts for strategic designs which we have none. actually when mirage 2000 was being evaluated, modifications were requested to it good dog fighters because it often lost in dog fights against f-7mp simulator games paf run before finalising the deal.french were not interested to downgrade thier prime product. so before going in to fighters selection, we need to keep these things in mind. j-10 will definitely be purchased and block c and d will used to improve it. but wedont need them in big numbers.


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## Quwa

The FC-20/J-10 gives the PAF the range and payload the JF-17s do not provide. Unlike JF-17 the J-10 has the airframe one should have if they intend to put a radar like RBE2-AA and expensive avionics and ECM/EW suites. I think the number of active J-10 in PAF will cross 100 and reach close to 150. I reckon a Pakistan specific J-10 would be $35-45mn per aircraft - if PAF procured 100-150 such versions. Remember the PAF needs a higher-end fighter that is relatively low in cost in contrast to other options and has a steady source of supply. The J-10 fits the bill.


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## Adux

J-10 needs to finish its requirements in PLAAF, and that takes a longtime, I suggest the Rafale.


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## Neo

Mark is quite right there, F-10/FC-20 is ideal for PAF's requirement for all the reasons mentioned.
Rafale would be a great assett but we can't afford it in great numbers.
I believe the unitcost is around $70 million.


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## Adux

J-10 will take a long time, Rafale is available of the shelf, and you can milk the french, cuz they dont have any buyers for it yet


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## Janbaz

Adux said:


> J-10 will take a long time, Rafale is available of the shelf, and you can milk the french, cuz they dont have any buyers for it yet



They got Saudi's for their new baby. J 10 ought to be inducted as a platform that can serve us better than the F 16 and JF 17. With certain modifications it might rival the MKI and be a direct opponent to the MRCA deal. It's ability to carry large loads is a huge asset for PAF especially when accompanied by bigger F 16 blk 52's.:banana2:


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## Adux

SAudi's are getting the Eurofighter's, if it is the J-10 when do you expect the First delivery.


----------



## mxiong

Janbaz said:


> With certain modifications it might rival the MKI and be a direct opponent to the MRCA deal.


I would say J-10 already has the ability to counter IAF's Su-30MKI.


----------



## Adux

mxiong said:


> I would say J-10 already had the ability to counter IAF's Su-30MKI.



Really lets have debate on that then, Give me the current Specifications of J-10 with its current avionics(not if's or wishful thinkin). J-10 on its current form is not as good as the F-16 Block 30. Even the Pakistani's will agree to that.

China's doing good for herself, no doubt. But for you to reach weapon system and avionics reaching the standards of the leaders in the field you have a very very long way to go. And it is harder for you obtain technology beacause of the various technology bans kept on you by USA and Europe.


----------



## kidwaibhai

Yeah i do think that j-10 is not that close to the SU-30. But i do think that the chinese are getting really close maybe in the next 10-12 years. Dont worry after that we will kick *** all over the place


----------



## mxiong

Adux said:


> Really lets have debate on that then, Give me the current Specifications of J-10 with its current avionics(not if's or wishful thinkin). J-10 on its current form is not as good as the F-16 Block 30. Even the Pakistani's will agree to that.
> 
> China's doing good for herself, no doubt. But for you to reach weapon system and avionics reaching the standards of the leaders in the field you have a very very long way to go. And it is harder for you obtain technology beacause of the various technology bans kept on you by USA and Europe.


PLAAF has conducted both field exercise and computer simulation and J-10 had excellent exchange ratio w/ J-11(Su-27SK w/ upgraded avionics) as 1:2 and a even better 1:4 w/ Su-30MKK. So I believe the exchange ratio b/t J-10 and Su-30MKI is approx. 1:1.2~1.5.


----------



## Adux

mxiong said:


> PLAAF has conducted both field exercise and computer simulation and J-10 had excellent exchange ratio w/ J-11(Su-27SK w/ upgraded avionics) as 1:2 and a even better 1:4 w/ Su-30MKK. So I believe the exchange ratio b/t J-10 and Su-30MKI is approx. 1:1.2~1.5.



It was a Su-27, And I dont believe them I rather take neutral views.
Just for a Taster;Do you know the your SU-30MKK and Su-27 carriers a N001 Radar while a Su-30 MKI carries a BARS PESA.

Now Stop feeding CPC Propaganda, and give me the accurate details of the avionics, performance, parameters of the J-10 and I will give you the exact details of Su-30MKI with all source, Dont tell me about any if's and wishful thinking. And lets have a debate.


----------



## Adux

kidwaibhai said:


> Yeah i do think that j-10 is not that close to the SU-30. But i do think that the chinese are getting really close maybe in the next 10-12 years. Dont worry after that we will kick *** all over the place



Quite right, But I will give it 15-25 years. You do have to understand that along with China moving forward, the other countries are also moving forward.


----------



## mxiong

Adux said:


> It was a Su-27, And I dont believe them I rather take neutral views.
> Just for a Taster;Do you know the your SU-30MKK and Su-27 carriers a N001 Radar while a Su-30 MKI carries a BARS PESA.
> 
> Now Stop feeding CPC Propaganda, and give me the accurate details of the avionics, performance, parameters of the J-10 and I will give you the exact details of Su-30MKI with all source, Dont tell me about any if's and wishful thinking. And lets have a debate.


I would like to silence you resistance with facts. But unfortunately the detalied specification of J-10 is still classified. Maybe we can have a better debate once J-10 twin-engine or "stealth" variants come out.


----------



## Adux

mxiong said:


> I would like to silence you resistance with facts. But unfortunately the detalied specification of J-10 is still classified. Maybe we can have a beeter debate once J-10 twin-engine or "stealth" variants come out.



Ok dude, well and good. have a nice day. Also dont forget about the X-Wing Space Fighter


----------



## mxiong

Adux said:


> Ok dude, well and good. have a nice day. Also dont forget about the X-Wing Space Fighter


Thanks. We are working on its conceptual design as well


----------



## pg7

On one to one basis, su-30mki is far more superior to oof our present or future assets. But indopak scenario is not going to be on one to one basis.Given the situation, j-10 can hold its ground. PAF should really look most advanced Chinese and Europian air defence assets to really compensate indian threat of mig-27. Once it happens, indians can be stretched to limits. Moreover, our arab brethern always look to most advanced assets in the world and can never keep them in the state desired. In order to develop your own infrastructure and to produce highly skilled manpower, we need to have experiments with medium technology fighters/equipment. In this regard, Chinese euipment has helped our strategic organizations a lot. We successfully use our western assets to improve the chinese one. Moreover, expanding ties with countries like Ukraine, South Africa, Italy , Germany and France can pay dividends in combination with China. We need to rely as minimum as possible on us, england and russia. This will keep us away from hurdles and sanctions etc. American are in every likelihood certain to sanction pakistan in any difficult times of conflicts likely to happen.


----------



## Adux

Pg7,

Numbers are in the favour of IAF and technology too.

Are you talking about the SEAD capability of the Mig-27 or was that a Typo.

ps: lets not derail the thread,this is a J-10 thread, so lets keep that in prespective on our debates.


----------



## morind

I'd like to offer some vedios of J-10,but I don't know how to upload,so I have only to list the links that can be download to get watched.
mms://nv.sina.com.cn/news/2006/12/29643676.wmv
it was the vedio when J-10 was firstly revealed in CCTV's central news.12.29.2006
mms://nv.sina.com.cn/news/2006/12/29841400.wmv
it was the vedio of lengthened version in CCTV's news channal
mms://winmedia.cctv.com.cn/wwwwxinwen/2007/01/wwwwxinwen_300_20070105_16.wmv
it was the vedio displayed in CCTV news channal in 1.5.2007


----------



## Bull

Well as of now i guess Pak plans to induct 150 JF-17 at a rate of 12-13 planes a year, the intial 30 might be the basic fighters and remaind miht be the one with eurpoean avionics and aramaments. As PAF cant wait for the entrie negotiations to end to start inducting. They may only get the J-10 after they finish the quota of 150 JF-17, bcoz i think PAC wont be having spare capacity to make / assemble J -10s.

1. Would PLAAF be able to give PAF some 20 - 30 readymade J-10s, would they have spare production capacity.

2. Are the JF-17 going to be made in PAC or assembled? If Assembled wouldnt that slow down the production rate as China would have to produce parts for both PLAAF and PAF at the same time?


----------



## Adux

Bull,

We still have the Engine Issue...


----------



## Bull

Imagine if they have that solved.


----------



## Janbaz

Adux said:


> SAudi's are getting the Eurofighter's



Nope, the order was canclled. There was a thread in here somewhere. I am dead certain.


----------



## Adux

Janbaz said:


> Nope, the order was canclled. There was a thread in here somewhere. I am dead certain.



They had a corruption problem with the BaE, but now the House of commons agreed on it and cleard it. It is the Typhoon.


----------



## Neo

Bull said:


> Well as of now i guess Pak plans to induct 150 JF-17 at a rate of 12-13 planes a year, the intial 30 might be the basic fighters and remaind miht be the one with eurpoean avionics and aramaments. As PAF cant wait for the entrie negotiations to end to start inducting. They may only get the J-10 after they finish the quota of 150 JF-17, bcoz i think PAC wont be having spare capacity to make / assemble J -10s.


New facility at PAC is designed to handle 20-25 airframes per annum. During the first year 15 Thunders will be built but production will peak 2009 already as stated by Tanvir Mahmood.
PAF will finally get 200+ JF-17's, 150 is just a projected figure based on PAF requirements almost ten years ago.



> 1. Would PLAAF be able to give PAF some 20 - 30 readymade J-10s, would they have spare production capacity.


Probably so. Chinese aviotion industry can absorb excellerated delivery and production rate is already high.
I believe first 8 J-10's were handed over to PLAAF for flight testing in 2004. The number built sofar is more than 100...



> 2. Are the JF-17 going to be made in PAC or assembled? If Assembled wouldnt that slow down the production rate as China would have to produce parts for both PLAAF and PAF at the same time?


By 2009 we'll have realised full production capacity of *producing* 20-25 aircrafts.
Half the spares will be built by China the rest by Pakistani industry. 
Some contracts are already known. Taxilla Heavy Industry will play a leading role.


----------



## Keysersoze

Adux said:


> Bull,
> 
> We still have the Engine Issue...



The engine issue, I believe will not be an issue at all. The first few JF-17's obviously have Russian engines (When they fly on the 23rd march they smoke trail will confirm this.) If the Russians do nothing then you will have an answer. 

Long duration testing on the WS-13 was being undertaken a while back (I don't have the link to hand but I believe Dragonking posted it somewhere on here) so by next year or even this eyar it will no longer be a problem.

As for the J-10 the Chinese will have more than enough production lines (I read that they can produce at full capacity approx 50 a year.)


----------



## Adux

Hey it is no issue to me as long as it is not a RD-33,


----------



## Neo

Adux said:


> Hey it is no issue to me as long as it is not a RD-33,



Its not a RD-33...we got the latest version based on (smokeless) RD-33K, the RD-93.


----------



## Adux

Neo said:


> Its not a RD-33...we got the latest version based on (smokeless) RD-33K, the RD-93.



The ever flowing wetdreams


----------



## Neo

This is confirmed news dude, China received 100 RD-93's which are improved RD-33K to power the FC-1/JF-17.


----------



## A.Rahman

Neo said:


> This is confirmed news dude, China received 100 RD-93's which are improved RD-33K to power the FC-1/JF-17.



tell me more plz, post the news if possible


----------



## alamgir

As i read in some chines defence sites that china will induct j10A in small numbers, because the next version of j10 with twin engine probely ws10A with TVC and better radar and electronics will arrive in next few years,so if it is true then pakistan will go for that


----------



## Neo

A.Rahman said:


> tell me more plz, post the news if possible


Its been discussed to lenghts in Sinodefence and there's an analysis by Highsea in WAB.

But here's a report from an independant Russian source:



> Things We Signed
> 
> The deal with China to sell 34 Il-76MD military transportation planes and 4 Il-78 inflight refueling tankers was the biggest one in 2005 costing $1.2 but the mass media put the price at $1.5 billion. China also ordered three sets of aircraft motors. *The $267 million contract to deliver 100 RD-93 motors for Chinese FC-1 light fighters was struck in April.* The $580 million order for 100 AL-31FN motors to be used for Russian Su-27SKs and Su-30MKKs followed in July. This pattern of Chinese purchases is quite peculiar. Beijing evidently prefers to gradually stop buying fight planes and start importing hardware and components parts that the Chinese industry is unable to produce so far.
> 
> http://www.kommersant.com/t651264/r_3/n_36/1_Billion_in_4_Days/



I'll be back with more...


----------



## Neo

*Russia Signed AL-31 Engine Deal with China*

According to the report of Russia media Kommersant, the Russian state-owned arms trading company Rosoboroneksport has concluded a US$300 million deal for the export of 100 modified AL-31FN turbofan engines from the Salyut Moscow Machine Building Production Enterprise to China. These engine will be fitted on the PLA Air ForceÃ¢â¬â¢s latest indigenous J-10 fighter aircraft.

The report confirmed the earlier speculation that China had received 54 Salyut-made AL-31FP turbofan engines for a test fleet of J-10s between 2002 and 2004. Later Salyut, through Rosoboroneksport, successfully negotiated the sale of the engine for mass production of the fighter aircraft.

An official of Salyut stated that the deal, which is the latest of their deals with China, is for 100 modified AL-31FN engines worth more than US$300 million. He clearly confirmed that these engines will not be installed Russian-made fighters, but Chinese. Ã¢â¬ÅThe contract allows us to enlarge the spectrum of our collaboration with China while avoiding ties to production only of engines of the Sukhoi family,Ã¢â¬Â he said.

Salyut services and renovates engines for Su-27SK and Su-30MK2 fighters delivered to Beijing previously. A US$100 million contract was recently concluded for the delivery of parts for those engines over the next three years. It is understood that Salyut signed that contract directly, since it has a five-year license for the independent delivery of spare parts and technical servicing. It received that license in September 2002.

Experts say that the total demand of China for AL-31FN engines is 250, which could earn Russia about $900 million. Obviously, after receipt of the first lot of engines, China will sign a new contract with Salyut.

*The contract with Salyut is the second within three months for the delivery of Russian engines for Chinese fighter planes. At the beginning of April, Rosoboroneksport signed a contract with Beijing for the sale of 100 RD-93 engines for the new Chinese FC-1 for $267 million. The engine was developed by the Klimov plant based on the RD-33 used in the improved MiG-29. Mass production of the RD-93 for China will be carried out at the Chernyshev plant in Moscow. Beijing's total demand for RD-93 will be about 500 pieces.*

http://www.sinodefence.com/news/2005/news05-07-31.asp


----------



## Neo

*Chendu FC-1*

The Chengdu FC-1 fighter program was initiated in 1991 as a replacement for China's J-7 fighters and for Pakistan. The aircraft was developed with assistance of Mikoyan designers and is based on the Mikoyan's experience with the MiG-33 fighter, a single seat development of MiG-29. *The aircraft will be powered by a modernized Klimov RD-33 turbofan engine, the RD-93,* and will employ a manual flight control system with analog fly-by-wire controls backup. There are plans to develop a two-seat trainer version of this aircraft.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/fc1.htm

Also check this link...all about Russian engines:
http://www.aeronautics.ru/index/aeronautics_K.htm


----------



## ahussains

What is the possiablites of Inducting J-10s in PAF and in how much time, what i know that the cabeint approves it .. but still it need time. and how it works with Saab Erieye when PAF got it and can chinees and Swedish engineer are agree to expose their technolgies to each other...


----------



## ahussains

What is the basic diffrence in RD 33 and RD 93 how 93 is superior to 33 and how many hours of life is of both 33 and 93 are they superior to P&W100 (i think ) which is fitted in F-16


----------



## Owais

ahussains said:


> What is the basic diffrence in RD 33 and RD 93 how 93 is superior to 33 and how many hours of life is of both 33 and 93 are they superior to P&W100 (i think ) which is fitted in F-16



RD 93 is much cleaner with more thrust than RD 33 but both of them are inferior to PW100 in thrust.


----------



## kvLin

Present throughput of JF-17 at Chendu: 2 per month,to increase in later half of 2007. PAF order in priority, according to the bilateral contract.

J-10(A/B): not sure. the hearsay 50 per year might not be true,since China is now focusing on its variations instead of output.

possible deployment of J-10: 5 aircraft groups (mixed unit with J-11,Chinese version Su-27), an aviatic base,and a training center.

Engine for J-10: batch1: 54 AL-31Fn, batch2: 100 AL-31Fn M1
China didn't sign supplemental purchase with Russia,due to the stereo type and batch production of WS-10A.


----------



## BATMAN

Reference to Pakistan's decision of procuring J-10 fighters, does any one know what would be the estimated price of each aircraft?
Is it final by now that those will be fitted with Russian AL-31FN?
In my opinion Pakistan should not hurry with this deal and wait until India procure its new 126 aircrafts! Any hints who is in and who is out on Indian deal?


----------



## Contrarian

Well...after the integrity pact thing, Russians stand on thin ice, and the compeition was essentially b/w MiG 35 and US Shornet.Thats our speculation BTW. Though Typhoon or Rafale might just surprise us all.


----------



## Neo

BATMAN said:


> Reference to Pakistan's decision of procuring J-10 fighters, does any one know what would be the estimated price of each aircraft?


Don't know the exact price but it will be cheaper than the block 52 F-16C/D.
I'm thinking in the range of 25-30 million with chinese avionics.


> Is it final by now that those will be fitted with Russian AL-31FN?


 The are fitted with Russian AL-31FN's but Russia is assisting China to copy the engine in the WS series.


> In my opinion Pakistan should not hurry with this deal and wait until India procure its new 126 aircrafts! Any hints who is in and who is out on Indian deal?


Why should we? Is there any other alternative? For sure the Rafale and Typhoon will be available but we can't afford to buy any of these designs in great numbers.

Regardless of where India buys the 126 MRC, we need atleast 50 J-10/FC-20's by 2015 to maintain current status quo.


----------



## BATMAN

Neo said:


> Don't know the exact price but it will be cheaper than the block 52 F-16C/D.
> I'm thinking in the range of 25-30 million with chinese avionics.
> The are fitted with Russian AL-31FN's but Russia is assisting China to copy the engine in the WS series.
> 
> Why should we? Is there any other alternative? For sure the Rafale and Typhoon will be available but we can't afford to buy any of these designs in great numbers.
> 
> Regardless of where India buys the 126 MRC, we need atleast 50 J-10/FC-20's by 2015 to maintain current status quo.



Thanks for the info. but to my humble sense if India don't go ahead with its procurement by 2010 then it should be them worrying about status quo! as Pakistan will be having perhaps 20 JF-17 by than and probably some F-16 too.
Taking decision after India would give Pakistan more options of negotiations, even if Pakistan loose his status quo in Airpower slightly for few months it does not mean any thing to me. By 2015 Pakistan will have lot of JF-17 and air to land version of cruise missels.


----------



## BATMAN

malaymishra123 said:


> Well...after the integrity pact thing, Russians stand on thin ice, and the compeition was essentially b/w MiG 35 and US Shornet.Thats our speculation BTW. Though Typhoon or Rafale might just surprise us all.



So all options are still open.
As per Indian Bible 'google' initially this aqusition should have taken place 2006!!! 
What do you think how long Indian lollypop will last?


----------



## Contrarian

Well, the RFQ would be out this year itself undoubtedly, and the first planes sould start arriving by 2012-15. Indian military timetables are not known for their accuracy. So this figure too by its nature is very vague.


----------



## Matador

Yes ,but when can pakistan air force get J-10,I don't know who was better Indian SUMKI vs china J-10?


----------



## Matador

ye good job!


----------



## EagleEyes

Matador said:


> Yes ,but when can pakistan air force get J-10,I don't know who was better Indian SUMKI vs china J-10?



PAF is not getting it this year for sure. May be at the end of the next year or so.


----------



## kvLin

BATMAN said:


> Reference to Pakistan's decision of procuring J-10 fighters, does any one know what would be the estimated price of each aircraft?
> Is it final by now that those will be fitted with Russian AL-31FN?
> In my opinion Pakistan should not hurry with this deal and wait until India procure its new 126 aircrafts! Any hints who is in and who is out on Indian deal?



I'm not sure about the unit price of JF-17,20 million? then J-10 may probably bid at 25million, as hearsay from Chinese military website.

As for engine to power J-10, 154 AL-31FN had arrived by the end of 2006,with the later 100 pieces improved (marked with M1). also hearsay that China is to enlarge the total order up to 500 pieces and meanwhile the copy work of WS-10A had succeeded now in betterment to steadily gain on AL-31FN. That is to say,according to the yearly capacity of J-10 and finished product of 120 or so(68 already deployed) , if the purchase urges to nail down within a year,40 J-10s can be obtained with AL-31FN. 

As per balance with India's new aircraft,which is called 4 gen ones, J-14might be among best choices in coming decade. The Chinese routine will get you noted that J-14 must has been in process since J-10 is unveiled.


----------



## BATMAN

kvLin said:


> I'm not sure about the unit price of JF-17,20 million? then J-10 may probably bid at 25million, as hearsay from Chinese military website.



I guess with this price it is possible to buy a western fighter i.e. 'Saab grippen' and with a large order of e.g. 100 aircrafts many things could be negotiated.



kvLin said:


> As per balance with India's new aircraft,which is called 4 gen ones, J-14might be among best choices in coming decade. The Chinese routine will get you noted that J-14 must has been in process since J-10 is unveiled.



J-14 is exactly what Pakistan needs not J-10 and that would be in next 10 years considering the underway development.


----------



## wdyy918

hehe 
So many Chinese!


----------



## Keysersoze

kvLin said:


> I'm not sure about the unit price of JF-17,20 million? then J-10 may probably bid at 25million, as hearsay from Chinese military website.
> 
> As for engine to power J-10, 154 AL-31FN had arrived by the end of 2006,with the later 100 pieces improved (marked with M1). also hearsay that China is to enlarge the total order up to 500 pieces and meanwhile the copy work of WS-10A had succeeded now in betterment to steadily gain on AL-31FN. That is to say,according to the yearly capacity of J-10 and finished product of 120 or so(68 already deployed) , if the purchase urges to nail down within a year,40 J-10s can be obtained with AL-31FN.
> 
> As per balance with India's new aircraft,which is called 4 gen ones, J-14might be among best choices in coming decade. The Chinese routine will get you noted that J-14 must has been in process since J-10 is unveiled.



I have heard from a reliable source that the unit price of the block 2's will be 25-30 million. (Jf-17's) This reflects the other avionic within. The J-10's price should reflect any potential upgrades as well.


----------



## crywolf

Actually,I knew J-10 in 1999. In later years that J-10 was not unveiled, I kept silence when other people bgan to talk warmly about it.


----------



## crywolf

A unversity teacher told me about programme 10 and other secret programmes.He is not my friend.I knew him because i offered him consultation service.He researched some material related to radar.


----------



## kvLin

keysersoze said:


> I have heard from a reliable source that the unit price of the block 2's will be 25-30 million. (Jf-17's) This reflects the other avionic within. The J-10's price should reflect any potential upgrades as well.



the unit price mentioned above is not what PAF,the co-manufacturer actually paid at for JF-17. while F-16A quoted at approx 35 million.


----------



## Keysersoze

kvLin said:


> the unit price mentioned above is not what PAF,the co-manufacturer actually paid at for JF-17. while F-16A quoted at approx 35 million.



The price I am quoting is the total unit cost including all possible upgrades (western radars etc etc) I am sure the basic unit cost is still going to be around the original prices quoted.


----------



## kvLin

keysersoze said:


> The price I am quoting is the total unit cost including all possible upgrades (western radars etc etc) I am sure the basic unit cost is still going to be around the original prices quoted.



I understand that,Keys,but still mean it coz the airframe had been priced kinda low (you just guess it). along with Chinese aviation it's 20-25 million, hereby cost performance has been the biggest advantage of JF-17. so I bet that PAF didn't throw bucks as much as you estimate.


----------



## Keysersoze

kvLin said:


> I understand that,Keys,but still mean it coz the airframe had been priced kinda low (you just guess it). along with Chinese aviation it's 20-25 million, hereby cost performance has been the biggest advantage of JF-17. so I bet that PAF didn't throw bucks as much as you estimate.



Well the reason why the price has been raised is that the J-10 has "stolen" some of the JF-17's thunder (no pun intended!) Hence the improved Avionics will make the aircraft more sale-able to potential buyers who are looking for a mid-tech fighter. I am sure it would be sold side by side with the basic model for those looking for a replacement for J-7's or Mig-21's. The big bucks are for western Avionics which are going to be fairly costly. Bear in mind a blk52 upgrade for a F-16 costs 26 million dollars (approx) 
P


----------



## Interceptor

Owais said:


> can any one tell me what kind of avionics & radar are used in F-10?



Pakistan wont consider chinnese avionics insteads its planning its own desired avionics into the J-10.


----------



## kvLin

"J-10 will be equipped with indigenous engine in serial productions within 2007", said Luoronghuai,CEO of Chengdu Avaition Corp (CAC) and Li Wenzheng the director of Aircraft Design Institute of CAC that China is speeding up development in the engine area, and in fact the engine (WS-10A) had been successfully developed during R&D of J-10. To be more cautious, CAC was still using mature engine (AL-31Fn) in the past few years. "but what we can be certain of is that the J-10 would have a "Chinese heart in this year."

Source:Yangzi Evening
http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2007-04/14/content_5974578.htm







China News Agency,Hong Kong 
Experts have pointed out that many countries are interested in the introduction of the J-10, made all by China, exports will be free from external constraints.

It has been learned that after acquiring power systems at the core of the third-generation fighter, China's design on further generation fighters will be going more expertly. and starting from the 4th gen fighter (J-14) project, hindered progress by the foot-dragging engine issue will be gone forever,which is the real sense of success.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2007-04/16/content_5981386.htm


----------



## Keysersoze

While China Ramps Up
China is accelerating the development of its military power on almost every front, particularly in intercontinental ballistic missiles, the Pentagon said in May.

In its annual assessment of Chinaâs military power, required by Congress, the Defense Department confessed to being âsurprisedâ at âthe pace and scope of [Chinaâs] strategic forces modernization,â which features several new classes of missiles with ranges that can reach the United States.

Overall, âChinaâs military expansion is already such as to alter regional military balances. Long-term trends in Chinaâs strategic nuclear forces modernization, land- and sea-based access denial capabilities, and emerging precision-strike weapons have the potential to pose credible threats to modern militaries operating in the region,â according to the report, prepared by the Office of the Secretary of Defense.

The Pentagon said China is the one country that could reasonably âcompete militarily with the United States.â

As the Pentagon has noted before, China continues to be secretive about its plans and ambitions and has âyet to adequately explain the purposes or desired end-states of [its] military expansion.â The Pentagon pegs Chinaâs defense spending at between $70 billion and $105 billion in 2006, or up to three times Chinaâs own stated figures. (See âAerospace World: China Boosts Arms Budget,â May, p. 25.) Chinaâs defense budget has continued to increase by double-digit percentage points annually since the early 1990s, and the Defense Intelligence Agency estimates Chinaâs military budget will triple by 2025.

While its annual defense budget is substantially less than that spent by the US, Chinaâs personnel pay and support costs are sharply lower than those of the US or other Western militaries, allowing most of the expenditure to go toward procurement of hardware.

In the document, DOD noted that China continues to pile up combat aircraft and tactical missiles directly across the Taiwan Strait from Taiwan, which it continues to claim as part of its territory. China frequently practices a wide range of amphibious attack techniques in large-scale exercises, the Pentagon said.

âChinaâs military buildup appears focused on preparing for Taiwan Strait contingencies, including the possibility of US intervention,â according to the white paper. DOD noted that many of Chinaâs military advances are aimed at being able to âinterdict, at long ranges, aircraft carrier and expeditionary strike groups that might deploy to the western Pacific.â

However, the buildup also will give China wider options in âconflicts over resources or territory.â The Pentagon noted that Chinaâs appetite for energy resourcesâoil and coalâis already voracious, and the military buildup may be aimed in part at âsecuringâ either vital sea-lanes of supply or communication, âor key geostrategic terrain.â

In the Cold War-style showdown with Taiwan, the balance of forces is âshifting in the mainlandâs favor,â the Pentagon said. China has deployed nearly 800 short-range tactical ballistic missiles opposite Taiwan and adds about another 100 every year. China has deployed about 400,000 troops opposite Taiwan, or about 25,000 more than last year.

Its new strategic missiles, the DF-31 and DF-31A, are solid-fueled and road-mobile, making them more survivable against a first strike, and the latter missile can cover most of the US. A similar new submarine-based missile, called the JL-2, is in advanced development.

China has deployed more than 700 advanced combat aircraft in the region of Taiwan and is continuing to acquire advanced Su-27 Flanker derivative types from Russia, build its own versions under license, and develop its own indigenous combat aircraft.

DOD seemed to offer a re-assessment of the capabilities of Chinaâs F-10 fighter, which it previously had compared to the F-16 Block 30. (See âWashington Watch: Chinese Military Is Catching UpâFast,â September 2005, p. 12.) In this latest version of the annual China report, the Pentagon said the F-10 is probably more comparable to the Eurofighter Typhoon and French Rafale, considered among the top three fighters in the world today, after the US F-22A. The Pentagon expects more than 1,200 F-10s will be built, and improved versionsâthe F-10A and âSuper-10ââare in advanced development.

China also is improving its night and all-weather maritime strike capability, although the Defense Department still is not sure if a Kuznetsov-class aircraft carrier purchased from Russia in the 1990s will be fitted for naval use, used as a floating museum, or, as the Chinese claim, turned into a floating casino.

Besides the combat aircraft, China is proceeding with reconfiguring Russian airlifters into airborne warning and control platforms and intelligence collection sensor aircraft. Some 40 Il-76 transports are being bought from Russia, along with eight Il-78 Midas air refueling aircraft.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/July2006/0706watch.asp


----------



## Keysersoze

China builds a superpower fighter
By David Lague
Published: February 8, 2007


BEIJING: For more than two decades, China has labored to build its first state-of-the-art jet fighter as part of the country's drive to become a leading military power.

In December, it appeared to have closed in on that ambition when it revealed, in an unusual blaze of publicity, that its new fighter, the J-10, had entered service in the air force.

Footage of the new aircraft firing missiles and refueling in flight was shown on state-controlled television, and Chinese defense magazines have published lengthy reports with photographs of the single-engine fighter.

Although specific details about the J-10's performance and specifications remain highly classified, some Western and Chinese military experts say the successful development of this advanced, multirole aircraft could be the catalyst for China to become a leading force in military aviation.

They say that Chinese engineers, with help from Israel and Russia, had refined a design aimed at matching advanced aircraft such as the Lockheed Martin F-16, the frontline U.S. Air Force fighter that has also been sold to more than 20 countries.


"A generation of engineers was put through their major production experience on that aircraft," said Rick Fisher, an expert on the Chinese military and vice president of the International Strategy and Assessment Center, a research institute based in Alexandria, Virginia.

"It has enabled China to create a cadre of experts that will be building ever more advanced aircraft over the next 50 years."

Along with China's successful test of an anti-satellite missile on Jan. 11, the new fighter is further evidence that double-digit increases in defense spending over much of the last 15 years are being converted into sharply increased firepower for the People's Liberation Army.

The introduction of modern aircraft, missiles, submarines and warships over the past decade, along with the increased professionalism of its service personnel, means that China is rapidly gaining the military muscle to match its growing economic clout.

And, according to Chinese and foreign military analysts, its domestic defense industries are steadily mastering key technologies needed to reduce the military's heavy dependence on Russian weapons.

The fanfare for the J-10 was overshadowed outside China by the international outcry over the missile strike that destroyed a defunct weather satellite.

In the aftermath of the missile test, Beijing attempted to allay fears that its military buildup poses a threat to its neighbors or other major powers.

"We do not conceal our intention to build a strong and modern national defense," the deputy chief of general staff of the People's Liberation Army, Lieutenant General Zhang Qinsheng, said in an interview last Friday that was published on the front page of the official China Daily newspaper.

"But," he continued, "we also tell the world candidly that the Chinese defense policy is always defensive in nature."

Despite these assurances, new weapons such as the J-10 are likely to contribute to growing unease, particularly in Asia, about China's long-term ambitions.

The threat from China's mounting air power is most keenly felt in Taiwan. Beijing regards the self-governing island as a renegade province and refuses to rule out the use of force if Taiwan makes any move toward formal independence.

Military experts say the deployment of the J-10 in big numbers will further erode the advantage in military technology that Taiwan's air force has enjoyed over its mainland rival.

On Jan. 23, Major General Wang Cheng-hsiao of Taiwan said that China had so far put about 60 J-10s into service and that these, in combination with China's advanced Russian-designed fighters, would give the mainland "supremacy over Taiwan in the air."

Lin Chong-pin, president of a research institute based in Taipei, the Foundation on International and Cross- Strait Studies, said Taiwan's advantage "is getting narrower and narrower."

"At the moment it is just in balance," added Lin, a former deputy defense minister in the governing Democratic Progressive Party. "If Taiwan doesn't do anything, it will tip in favor of the PLA air force."

To counter the threat, Taiwan wants to buy more F-16 fighters from the United States, but most analysts believe it is unlikely that the Bush administration will agree to this request while the island's legislature continues to block funding for an earlier arms order.

China plans to overhaul its air force as part of a larger effort to modernize its military, according to the defense White Paper that the Chinese government published in December. The document said China would concentrate on developing new fighters while reducing the overall number of combat aircraft.

"The air force aims at speeding up its transition from territorial air defense to both offensive and defensive operations and increasing its capabilities in the areas of strike, air and missile defense, early warning and reconnaissance and strategic projects," it said.

Although the official Chinese media described the J-10 as a "breakthrough" for Chinese military aviation, these reports also suggested that the plane was inferior to U.S. fighters like the F-16.

The Pentagon noted in May in its annual study on Chinese military power reports that the J-10 would be similar in weight and performance to two advanced European fighters, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Dassault Rafale.

Fisher, of the International Strategy and Assessment Center, says that of the fighters in service around the world, only the American F-22 Raptor, jointly produced by Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Pratt & Whitney for the U.S. Air Force, would clearly outmatch the J-10.

"The J-10 is a significant military capability," he said. "It's a highly maneuverable fighter."

It is unclear how many J-10's its maker, China Aviation Industry Corporation I, the country's most important aircraft manufacturer, plans to deliver to the air force.

Small numbers of single-seat and two-seat versions of the new fighter are already operational and some experts believe up to 300 could soon be produced to supplement the high-performance, Russian-designed Sukhoi Su-27 and Su-30MK aircraft already in service with the Chinese Air Force.

There has been some speculation that the production run could be expanded if the J-10, which is expected to be much cheaper than an F-16, can win export orders from countries unable to pay for expensive Western aircraft.

Prices of fighters vary sharply depending on capability but Chile is paying $60 million each for 10 F-16's it has on order from the United States. Fisher estimates a J-10 could sell for $25 million to $40 million.

The U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency forecasts that up to 1,200 of these aircraft could eventually be built, according to the Pentagon report on the Chinese military.

The publicity surrounding the new aircraft &#8212; including interviews with the leading designers &#8212; appeared to be aimed at fostering a sense of national pride in the achievements of the domestic defense industry.

For most of the period when the J-10 was under development, the Western arms embargo imposed after the 1989 Tiananmen crackdown meant that China was denied access to American and European aviation technology.

However, while acknowledging the technical advances China has made over that period, most experts believe the J-10 has relied heavily on technology transferred from Israel's aborted Lavi fighter project.

Prototypes of the Lavi, which was similar in capability to the F-16, had performed well in tests but Israel canceled the project in the late 1980s after the United States withdrew financial support.

Elements of its design are evident in the size and shape of the new Chinese fighter.

Fisher and other experts suggest that Israel also supplied the so-called fly- by-wire computer software that controls the aircraft in flight.

And technical difficulties that have long dogged Chinese efforts to build high-performance military jet engines forced the manufacturer to import Russian turbofan engines to power the J-10.

Locally produced engines could soon be available for the J-10 and other Chinese military aircraft, according to some analysts.

Lin, of the Foundation on International and Cross-Strait Studies in Taiwan, and some other military experts believe this combination of borrowed and adapted technology could detract from the J-10's operational performance, at least in the short term.

"This is a potpourri of parts from different countries," Lin said. "Naturally, there will be some limits to its capability. I suspect there is still room for improvement."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/08/news/fighter.php?page=2


----------



## ahussains

What are the Basic technical diffrence between J-10 /Su 27 / and JF-17 can any one let me know simply


----------



## kvLin

check this: http://cnair.top81.cn/index.html


----------



## Keysersoze

ahussains said:


> What are the Basic technical diffrence between J-10 /Su 27 / and JF-17 can any one let me know simply



Dude just enter the names of the planes into google and do some research......We can't hold your hand through everything....


----------



## khanbhai

iam confused are we going to buy J-10 or not


----------



## EagleEyes

khanbhai said:


> iam confused are we going to buy J-10 or not



What is confusing you? So far the air cheif has said that the negotiations are being done. So hold it my friend.


----------



## Interceptor

What is the Unit price for the J-10? Pakistan should consider more than 40 J-10's these planes are very good step forward for Pakistan to make its new Interceptor squad up from they are considerd quite deadly as the report said. Wh doesn't Pakistan trash the F-16's and buy the J-10's instead I say this because if Pakistan needs spares for the F-16 or upgrades its all ways a pain trying to get them. It is better to go for a reliable source like China who will help Pakistan in bad times.


----------



## Keysersoze

Interceptor said:


> What is the Unit price for the J-10? Pakistan should consider more than 40 J-10's these planes are very good step forward for Pakistan to make its new Interceptor squad up from they are considerd quite deadly as the report said. Wh doesn't Pakistan trash the F-16's and buy the J-10's instead I say this because if Pakistan needs spares for the F-16 or upgrades its all ways a pain trying to get them. It is better to go for a reliable source like China who will help Pakistan in bad times.



Because...

1)PAF has operated the f-16 for years. It will not require as much induction.
2)It is still technologically more advanced than the J-10 currently,which will probably be fitted out with western tech anyway.
3)The cost of 100+ new jets and western tech for it, would very expensive as well.
4) It is better to rely upon more than one source as history has proven.


----------



## mirage_lover

How many weapon stations and internal payload does the J10 have?


----------



## EagleEyes

Dude read the whole thread.

And stop looking at your post count. 

Weapon station: 11

Internal payload: I dont know. What the heck is that?  Does it matter?

http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news095.htm


----------



## kvLin

Keysersoze said:


> Because...
> 
> 1)PAF has operated the f-16 for years. It will not require as much induction.
> 2)It is still technologically more advanced than the J-10 currently,which will probably be fitted out with western tech anyway.
> 3)The cost of 100+ new jets and western tech for it, would very expensive as well.
> 4) It is better to rely upon more than one source as history has proven.



complements:
1) J-10 is built against F-16, and commonly recognized to confront F-16C/D.
2) Pakistan will buy weapons from USA to meet both its diplomatic and technical needs.


----------



## Adux

J-10 is in no position to confront the F-16 C/D Block 52+


----------



## Muradk

Adux said:


> J-10 is in no position to confront the F-16 C/D Block 52+



Adux for you my friend.


----------



## mirage_lover

WebMaster said:


> Dude read the whole thread.
> 
> And stop looking at your post count.
> 
> Weapon station: 11
> 
> Internal payload: I dont know. What the heck is that?  Does it matter?
> 
> http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news095.htm



I wasn't looking at my post count. It's hard to look through SO MUCH info for a small phrase. 
Internal payload as in, storage for unguided bombs inside the belly of the aircraft  
sorry for the trouble  thanx for info.


----------



## Adux

Muradk said:


> Adux for you my friend.
> 
> [/QOUTE]
> 
> Sir,
> 
> Aerodynamically, I do believe it might succeed a 52++, especially since it comes with conformal tanks, which reduces aerodynamic performance. But to say J-10 will match the mission, payload, range, avionics. capacity of the 52++ is just not done. The Best aircraft in PAF Airwing will be 52++ not the J-10.


----------



## mxiong

Adux said:


> Muradk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Adux for you my friend.
> 
> [/QOUTE]
> 
> Sir,
> 
> Aerodynamically, I do believe it might succeed a 52++, especially since it comes with conformal tanks, which reduces aerodynamic performance. But to say J-10 will match the mission, payload, range, avionics. capacity of the 52++ is just not done. The Best aircraft in PAF Airwing will be 52++ not the J-10.
> 
> 
> 
> Right now F-16 post-Block50/52 might have its edge in various BI/SEAD/AR missions, but regarding air-superiority "confrontation" J-10 will kick the living **** out of the latest variant of F-16 nevertheless.
Click to expand...


----------



## Sgt. Automatic

Is the latest version of F-16 (blk 52) better than F-15E's in air supermacy, if not then how does J-10 stand beside an F-15E. From what I know F-15's were better than F-16s up to blk 30, I don't know after that.


----------



## EagleEyes

On air supremecy scheme it all comes down to an effective radar (including jamming capability) and advanced medium range missiles. Where i think F-15 wins hands down but then again if J-10 too has an AESA radar, you have an equal match. Also do note that quite a few anti-missiles technology has been developed by China for American air to air missiles.


----------



## mxiong

F-15E "Strike Eagle" is mainly for ground attack, whereas F-15C fights for air superiority. F-15 w/ AESA is better than current J-10, but the upcoming twin-engine variant of J-10 w/ AESA + TVC + low observability will be able to confront not just F-15, but even F-35 and F-22.


----------



## Interceptor

*China launches new stealth fighter project*

10 December 2002

By Yihong Chang, JDW Correspondent, Zhuhai

Shenyang Aircraft CompanyThe Shenyang Aircraft Company has been selected to head research and development of a new heavyweight fighter for China's People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), according to a senior source at the China Aviation Industry Corp I (AVIC I).

Development of the engines and weapon subsystems for the fourth-generation fighter has been underway for some time, according to the source, who revealed that a number of design concepts have already been created. Wind-tunnel tests of these are about to start. Images of the concepts show a twin-engine aircraft sharing some design traits with Lockheed Martin's stealthy F/A-22 multirole fighter, now undergoing tests with the US Air Force, such as the internal carriage of its weapon systems. The Chinese designs retain a more conventional wing, however, and use a single vertical tail fin.

AVIC I officials told JDW that the new aircraft - tentatively dubbed the J-X and possibly to receive the service designation J-13A - could use the WS10A turbofan engine designed by the Shenyang Liming Motor Company during its development and trials process.

In development for more than a decade, the WS10-series powerplant completed air trials earlier this year with an Su-27SK (NATO reporting name: 'Flanker-B') fighter. The WS10A is scheduled for introduction with the PLAAF's new J-10A fighter, which has yet to be formally unveiled.

Continuing research into advanced control techniques is expected to in time allow the air force to field WS10A-powered J-10A and J-X fighters equipped with thrust-vectoring nozzles offering improved aircraft manoeuvrability.

While AVIC I sources will not speculate when the new fighter might make its first test flight, a debut around the end of the decade could be expected if the project matches the development process for China's J-10A and J-8D projects. 



http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jdw/jdw021210_2_n.shtml

Old but relevent to the topic.


----------



## JK!

F15 was built in response to Soviet MiG 25 foxbat.

Against say MiG 29 it has a disadvantage in dogfighting. Its advantage is more thrust and powerful radar.


----------



## EagleEyes

*&#8216;PAF to modernise fleet&#8217;*

ISLAMABAD: Air Chief Martial Tanveer Mehmood Ahmed has said that more than 300 warrior aircrafts, missiles and an early warning system will be acquired at a cost of $ 9 billion to modernise the Pakistan Air Force.

In an interview with a private TV channel, Tanveer Mehmood Ahmed said Pakistan Air Force plans to modernise its fleet by replacing aging aircrafts with more than 300 multi-roll combat aircrafts including the American F-16s and Chinese JF-17 thunder fighter jets and J-10 aircrafts over the next few years.

He further said, &#8220;We are looking forward to changing most of our Mirage, A-5 and F-7 aircrafts which total number touched to the figure of two hundred and fifty.

Talking about the difference between a JF-17 and a SE-20 aircraft, the air chief said, &#8220;The basic difference between the JF-17 and SE-20 is that the latter is slightly bigger in size, however, it has greater capacity to carry more weapon load and more fuel and it has more endurance. So, its radar will be bigger and, therefore, the ability to attack enemy target will be longer. It has more stations to carry more air-to-air missiles and air-to-ground weapons and also has air-to-air refuelling capability.&#8221; online

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


----------



## EagleEyes

Notice the change in name. SE-20, now what the heck is that? Why is the media keep changing the aircrafts name. Also it says a total $9 billion will be spent in the modernization of the Pakistan Air Force alone!


----------



## Ababeel

What is this SE-20 Aircraft!!
What is its earlier name. I didn't understand to which aircraft he is somparing the JF-17 Thunder.
Please explain!!


----------



## master_fx

mxiong said:


> F-15E "Strike Eagle" is mainly for ground attack, whereas F-15C fights for air superiority. F-15 w/ AESA is better than current J-10, but the upcoming twin-engine variant of J-10 w/ AESA + TVC + low observability will be able to confront not just F-15, but even F-35 and F-22.



get real! there is no dual engine J-10 nor in development. the heavy air superior fighter role has already being fill up by the Su-27 and Su-30. Plus PLAAF has already spend much its $$$ and energy to license produce and modify Su-27, the development for another fighter of this class will be a complete waste of time and money.


----------



## blain2

WebMaster said:


> Notice the change in name. SE-20, now what the heck is that? Why is the media keep changing the aircrafts name. Also it says a total $9 billion will be spent in the modernization of the Pakistan Air Force alone!



Think about it as such..FC could easily have been misunderstood for SE. They sound very much alike. The aircraft in PAF lingo is FC-20.


----------



## Neo

Ababeel said:


> What is this SE-20 Aircraft!!
> What is its earlier name. I didn't understand to which aircraft he is somparing the JF-17 Thunder.
> Please explain!!



I'm sure its a typo, PAF has already evaluated the J-10 and as per ASR (Air Staff Requirement) the J-10 will undergo heavy modifications and upgrades to meet PAF's MRCA requirements. The PAF specific J-10C is designated as FC-20 and will carry a number of European avionics and weapons.

Earlier it was also reported that GoP has asked Russia to supply Saturn TVC engines currently used by SU-30's.


----------



## VIRUS

Friendz is dis jet capable enough to take out SU-27, SU-30, & the Mig-29's in IAF, because it will be serving as a front line fighter in PAF, ?????


----------



## Keysersoze

VIRUS said:


> Friendz is dis jet capable enough to take out SU-27, SU-30, & the Mig-29's in IAF, because it will be serving as a front line fighter in PAF, ?????



two points.......

1)Read through the threads we have on this subject in the forum This question has been debated to death over the last few years.

2)It is THIS not DIS. One thing that earns my ire more than anything is the usage of txt speech.


----------



## EagleEyes

J-10 with conformal fuel tanks.


----------



## A.Rahman

I found this interesting post on sinodefence:



tphuang said:


> alright, listening to the guy talking about J-10's avionics now from &#201;&#238;&#219;&#218;&#202;&#208;&#195;&#241;&#206;&#196;&#187;&#175;&#180;&#243;&#189;&#178;&#204;&#195;-&#212;&#218;&#207;&#223;&#202;&#211;&#198;&#181;- 07&#196;&#234;&#181;&#218;75&#189;&#178;02&#161;&#170;&#203;&#213;&#194;&#161;&#199;&#229;&#163;&#186;&#207;&#214;&#180;&#250;&#213;&#189;&#213;&#249;&#214;&#208;&#181;&#196;&#191;&#213;&#190;&#252;&#215;&#176;&#177;&#184;&#188;&#188;&#202;&#245;
> - he said that avionics are very import, but are also very expensive
> - J-10 cost 200 million Yuan each, export to Pakistan would probably be 300 million each
> - out of that, 100 million is spent on the avionics, takes 10 years to develop
> - one is DCFS (Digital Flight Control Systems), which allows pilot to control the plane with displayed information
> - talks about the FBW computer, which does 500 K calculation per second (that's not even 1 MHz!, what?)
> - other is mission computer, you just plug in the mission and the fighter will tell you what to do
> - then talks about INS (inertial navigational system), you can go from Beijing to Shenzhen with this and only be off by 500 m
> - and the other is CADC (central air data computer), it is used to detect the temperature, dew point, wind direction/speed and stuff like that.
> - other is SMS (store management system), this is the system controlling the launching of missiles and bombs (it has to calculate how high you are launching certain weapons and your speed to achieve optimize results)
> *- radar - can detect up to 150 km (here is interesting part, he mentions that F-22 can only do 170 km, but that is vs 1 m^2 target, I doubt J-10 is facing that size to get to 150 km, maybe 3 m^2 or 5 M^2?)*
> - CNI - communication/navigation/identification, plane has wide band, narrow band (different types of waves that it's sending and receiving), didn't really talk about datalink or IFF, but I'm guessing that's part of this
> - EMS - (electronic counter measure system?) - not much said
> talks about a fighter jet is like a networked computer system with many sub parts, each has a computer that can do half to 1 million calculations per second. Also, they take up very little space.
> 
> That's about it on J-10's avionics.


----------



## IceCold

Isnt the conformal fuel tanks suppose to be under the wings rather the fuselarge? It seems rather unrealistic to be beneath the air intake.


----------



## Keysersoze

IceCold said:


> Isnt the conformal fuel tanks suppose to be under the wings rather the fuselarge? It seems rather unrealistic to be beneath the air intake.



Take a look at the F-16 conformal tanks and you will see they are in a similar position. They are the large bulges near the top of the fuselage not the targeting pods you are looking at dude.


----------



## Neo

Targetting pods indicate a future strike role for J-10.  
Keys, does China have a tergetting pods, anything comapareable to Sniper?


----------



## Keysersoze

Neo said:


> Targetting pods indicate a future strike role for J-10.
> Keys, does China have a tergetting pods, anything comapareable to Sniper?



To be honest I think this was a fanboy offering, but China does have targeting pods. A couple of examples here.

FILAT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Blue Sky navigation pod - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Neo

Thanks, Blue Sky must have matured by now if it was displayed in Zuhai Air Show in 1998 with the 3rd generation now in service with PLAAF. 

Hats off for the chinese for their intelligence, not easy to get the AN/AAQ-13 from a downed aircraft in Gulf War into China.


----------



## A.Rahman

Neo said:


> Hats off for the chinese for their intelligence, not easy to get the AN/AAQ-13 from a downed aircraft in Gulf War into China.



what aircraft? when? post the story please


----------



## Neo

A.Rahman said:


> what aircraft? when? post the story please



No story mate, just a reference to Wiki posted by Keys in #191.  
Open the Blue Sky link.


----------



## IceCold

Keysersoze said:


> Take a look at the F-16 conformal tanks and you will see they are in a similar position. They are the large bulges near the top of the fuselage not the targeting pods you are looking at dude.



Thanks for pointing out sir keys


----------



## overseer

WebMaster said:


> J-10 with conformal fuel tanks.




Those are VRAY renders.... you can even see it says "VRay"...and the render time down the bottom. I highly doubt those are official design.
I don't think J-10 would be upgraded with conformal fuel tanks for a long time to come (If there is ever a need).

Another thing is, having conformal fuel tank also makes the plane fly like a brick, no matter how aerodynamically "conformal" it gets.


----------



## Awesome

Fan fiction? Or do we have an actual bird like that?

I've always thought PAF lacks a deep strike option (in the event we use up all of our limited cruise missiles).


----------



## Awesome

overseer said:


> Those are VRAY renders.... you can even see it says "VRay"...and the render time down the bottom. I highly doubt those are official design.


What are vray renders?


----------



## EagleEyes

Asim Aquil said:


> Fan fiction? Or do we have an actual bird like that?
> 
> I've always thought PAF lacks a deep strike option (in the event we use up all of our limited cruise missiles).



Conformal fuel tanks increase the range, hence giving aircrafts deep strike capability. Some air forces use the area to equip Electronic Warfare systems other use it to increase the range (conformal tanks).

Thanks.


----------



## overseer

Asim Aquil said:


> What are vray renders?



What I mean is that those images are rendered with a plugin for 3DS MAX called VRay.

V-Ray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The images are rendered by some Chinese CG hobbyist, it may look very authentic and accurate, but they are by no mean "official" or real.


----------



## EagleEyes

Of course overseer, i acknowledge that.

This is the creative stuff to show how the J-10 will look like it, if certain modifications are done.


----------



## overseer

WebMaster said:


> Of course overseer, i acknowledge that.
> 
> This is the creative stuff to show how the J-10 will look like it, if certain modifications are done.



Sorry Webby  I didn't mean to sound so mean. hehe.

About conformal fuel tank, I personally think it isn't such a good idea for strike aircraft to get such "upgrade". It makes the plane becomes slower & fly like a brick and you don't get any "option" to dump those fuel tanks incase of emergency (evasive actions). This was the case for the Taiwan's AIDC ****-1D Ching-kuo Fighter upgrade project.


AIDC **** Indigenous Defence Fighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is widely talked about in some circle that after the AIDC ****-1D got upgraded with conformal fuel tanks, it makes the already slow fighter (max speed 1.8 mach) even slower, and far less manuvarable. It is even reported due to the weight increase with various upgrades (eg. fuel tanks, fuel weight, radars, ECM, and an extra engine), that all the advantages of range increase are actually nullified, so it become a slower, same range fighter as it was before, except it is more deck out.

Just think of it this way, if you are riding a bike, and you are forced to put on *several backpacks filled with rocks*, it will definitely limit your endurance, agility, and range how far you can bike. 

So, unless the fighter is upgraded with far more powerful jet-engines, enlarging the wing area and lengthening the plane, I think generally, the conformal fuel tank is just a very costly bad idea.

EDIT: I don't know why the forum is blocking the military designation of the aircraft.... the link is broken due to it. If anyone interested to learn more, you need to search "Indigenous Defence Fighter" on wiki.

Admin Edit: There seems to be some banned word which is filtering the link. I will look into it. Thanks!


----------



## EagleEyes

I dont think it is necessary with all the aircrafts given that modifications are effectively done. 

The Isreali F-16I has both conformal fuel tanks and different spine to accomodate EW systems.


----------



## Loong

Sources tell you a few days ago a test flight of its latest j10


----------



## IceCold

Loong said:


> Sources tell you a few days ago a test flight of its latest j10



Loong you mean the super 10. Can you elaborate on it with details as to which version are you talking about?

Regards
IceCold


----------



## Muradk

Overseer regarding CFT yar I think someone gave you wrong info about it.
The CFT have neglible effect on the aircraft agility, at subsonic speed, However, at supersonic speed, the drag is increased proportionally to the increase in speed. When fitted with CFT the aircraft retains almost the full handling qualities, flight limits, and signature.
and Dog Fights takes place way below Supersonic Speeds.

CFT are being used by IAF on ther F-16s and UAE B/60 the american test pilots say that 
The CFTs have very little adverse effect on the F-16s renowned performance, said Maj. Timothy S. McDonald, U.S. Air Force project pilot for CFT testing at Eglin. A set of CFTs carries 50 percent more fuel than the centerline external fuel tank, but has only 12 percent of the drag. The CFTs are designed for the full F-16 flight envelope  up to 9 gs, maximum angle of attack and sideslip and maximum roll rate.


----------



## Loong

IceCold said:


> Loong you mean the super 10. Can you elaborate on it with details as to which version are you talking about?
> 
> Regards
> IceCold



China's senior military enthusiasts have modified j10 judgment for the latest stealth modified.


----------



## overseer

Loong said:


> China's senior military enthusiasts have modified j10 judgment for the latest stealth modified.



I think it's best you don't talk about it if you don't have any proof.

Benjamin Franklin once said : "It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."


----------



## EagleEyes

Loong,

Since your not new, we dont know how credible you are. Please provide sources, because it doesn't seems true.


----------



## Munir

Loong said:


> China's senior military enthusiasts have modified j10 judgment for the latest stealth modified.



I have seen the posts of Chinese senior posters on keymags and other forums but I am not thatmuch impressed by their knowledge. Certainly that discussion ok keymag where they were trying to build a case to show that China was exportnig degraded weapons... Laughable posts by Tphuang, Crobato and others.


----------



## Munir

Muradk said:


> Overseer regarding CFT yar I think someone gave you wrong info about it.
> The CFT have neglible effect on the aircraft agility, at subsonic speed, However, at supersonic speed, the drag is increased proportionally to the increase in speed. When fitted with CFT the aircraft retains almost the full handling qualities, flight limits, and signature.
> and Dog Fights takes place way below Supersonic Speeds.
> 
> CFT are being used by IAF on ther F-16s and UAE B/60 the american test pilots say that
> The CFTs have very little adverse effect on the F-16s renowned performance, said Maj. Timothy S. McDonald, U.S. Air Force project pilot for CFT testing at Eglin. A set of CFTs carries 50 percent more fuel than the centerline external fuel tank, but has only 12 percent of the drag. The CFTs are designed for the full F-16 flight envelope  up to 9 gs, maximum angle of attack and sideslip and maximum roll rate.



I agree with most of your post but do not forget that every pound punishes acceleration... It is handy to drop wingfueltanks when going to do some real heavy dogfighting... CFT will stay there and are a pain in the back when you lost power and need to do a quick landing...

The real advantage for CFT is that you free up the mjor wingstations for ground stores. So the real advantage will be ground attack and not a2a... Anyway. Grate post.


----------



## Contrarian

Munir said:


> I have seen the posts of Chinese senior posters on keymags and other forums but I am not thatmuch impressed by their knowledge. Certainly that discussion ok keymag where they were trying to build a case to show that China was exportnig degraded weapons... Laughable posts by Tphuang, Crobato and others.



You also have to see the photos of Chinese military equipment that Chinese military enthusiasts put up on the net. Just one step short of star trek cruisers!


----------



## EagleEyes

> So the real advantage will be ground attack and not a2a... Anyway. Grate post.



Munir,

Why not a2a weapons?


----------



## Loong

overseer said:


> I think it's best you don't talk about it if you don't have any proof.
> 
> Benjamin Franklin once said : "It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."



Well, This issue does not need to debate. Just to give you an idea.
 
In addition, the Chinese people do not know what what Franklin said.

This issue does not need to debate. Chinese people do not need others to tell how we should do.


----------



## IceCold

People are gone nutts and this is something i recently found on pakistani defence regarding J-10:



> August 17, 2007: China is touting the advanced electronics in their new J10A fighter. The J10A is using an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. AESA systems consist of thousands of tiny radars that make it possible to track many different targets simultaneously. China claims the J10A radar can track ten targets at once, and attack four of them simultaneously (with long range missiles). China has revealed other military AESA radars recently, indicating years of intense research and development in this area.
> 
> 
> The J10 is also Chinese made. It looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J10 has only one engine. Originally, the J10 used a Russian AL-31FN engine, but China has been working for a decade to manufacture their own version of this, the WS10A.
> 
> 
> 
> It's no accident that the J10 resembles the F-16, because Israel apparently sold them technology for the Israeli Lavi jet fighter. Israel abandoned the Lavi project, because of the high cost and availability of cheaper alternatives (buying F-16s and F-15s from the United States.) But the Lavi was meant to be a super F-16, and incorporated a lot of design ideas from the F-16 (which the Israelis were very familiar with, as they used them, and had developed new components for them.) China has about a dozen J10As in service, and will probably increase production once their WS10A engine is operational (which may be in a year or two.) China's extensive espionage efforts in the U.S. has long sought jet engine and AESA technology.
> 
> Source:
> 
> http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htecm/art...s/20070817.aspx.


----------



## su-47

J-10s capabilities are a real mystery. some say its only as good as an early model f-16, while i have even heard some chinese members say its as good as rafale and eurofighter.

However, i read somewhere (cant remember exactly where, will try to look for it) that US generals consider J-10 to be a threat only in large numbers, so i dont think its that advanced


----------



## IceCold

su-47 said:


> J-10s capabilities are a real mystery. some say its only as good as an early model f-16, while i have even heard some chinese members say its as good as rafale and eurofighter.
> 
> However, i read somewhere (cant remember exactly where, will try to look for it) that US generals consider J-10 to be a threat only in large numbers, so i dont think its that advanced



Well its considered to be as advance as a block-40. PAF wasnt much impressed by the J-10 either, dispite of the approval from the cabinet PAF hasnt odered it and is still evaluating it. PAF wants it to have western avonics but would require heavy modifications on part of PAF. But having an AESA radar is totally out of the league.


----------



## fatman17

at best the J-10 is = to a F-16A-Blk15. J-10 will require heavy modifications if PAF ever orders this type. plus the engine could possibly be an issue. I think PAF wants to 1st integrate the JF-17 before even thinking about the J-10/F-20.


----------



## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> at best the J-10 is = to a F-16A-Blk15. J-10 will require heavy modifications if PAF ever orders this type. plus the engine could possibly be an issue. I think PAF wants to 1st integrate the JF-17 before even thinking about the J-10/F-20.



Sir are you sure its comparable to block 15. Because whatever source once can find on the internet leaving the chinese sources out, it says that it is as capable as a block40 F-16. Chinese sources claim its equal to block 50 which i doubt.


----------



## su-47

fatman17 said:


> at best the J-10 is = to a F-16A-Blk15. J-10 will require heavy modifications if PAF ever orders this type. plus the engine could possibly be an issue. I think PAF wants to 1st integrate the JF-17 before even thinking about the J-10/F-20.



i'm sure its better than block 15. even JF-17 is better than block 15 and chinese say that J-10 is better than JF-17


----------



## EagleEyes

If i were you, i wouldn't take strategy page a serious source for military confirmation. So please take a it with a pinch of salt!


----------



## su-47

the problem with chinese military equipment is that they are so reluctant to disclose its true capabilities. no one knows how good chinese weapons are.


----------



## EagleEyes

Well as per by my knowledge. The Pakistani J-10 will be as good as Rafale and Typhoon, given that it is able to select the western avionics including weapons sytems including that it is able to integrate the Chinese weapon systems also. Thats a plus, plus for Pakistan.


----------



## fatman17

i agree with webby - whilst the chinese are our dear and fast friends, their tech is atleast 10-15 yrs behind western tech. that is why PAF has always insisted on modifications (radar, fire control, avionics, ejection seats, AAMs etc) for all platforms which they have inducted. i would go further to say that if western engines were available for the F-6,A-5C, F-7PG, then PAF would have opted for them. JF-17 will hopefully be the best of them all with western systems, russian engine and AAMs. i can hardly wait for the 1st operational squadron to be inducted (God-willing)


----------



## EagleEyes

There has been lot of discussion going on the FC-20. It seems like that it will be very close to the EF Typhoon with the twin engine being a possiblity.


----------



## araz

WebMaster said:


> There has been lot of discussion going on the FC-20. It seems like that it will be very close to the EF Typhoon with the twin engine being a possiblity.



Webby.
Educate a simple man please. On the one hand you say that chinese avionics and general industry is technologically 5-15 yrs behind the developed world , and in the same breath we are talking about a super duper J10 which will have capabilities similar to EF/Rafale. Are we talking in the present moment as in the next one to 2 yrs or 5-10 yrs, as even the task of catching up is going to take time and research which means more money.
As far as i know, there are no signs of AESA for J10, there are concerns that a lot of its hard points can carry nothing more than **** bombs. The indegenous engine is at least a yr away from certification, and the BVR missiles are untested and of unknown capability. As far as I know, there have been no significant advances in incorporation of composites in to J10. Could someone please tell me what are the concrete indications for their assessment of this statement and also what changes are envisaged and what are the possibilities.
WaSalam
Araz


----------



## roadrunner

araz said:


> As far as i know, there are no signs of AESA for J10,



They've been making AESA components for the last decade. 



> and the BVR missiles are untested and of unknown capability.



SD-10 is supposed to be very capable..as capable as the AIM-120 AMRAAM supposedly.


----------



## jantobanto

any whrbouts of J-11, any pics plz welcome?


----------



## niaz

I had chance to visit the Dubai Air Show last Thursday. There was a stall of the Chinese Aircraft industry. It had static display models of JF17, L-15 and FTC2000. But no J-10. I inquired about J-10 from the people at the stall but they declined to comment. I find this behaviour very strange considering that J10 is already in service with PLAAF and openly discussed in the aviation circles.


----------



## goldenview73

jantobanto said:


> any whrbouts of J-11, any pics plz welcome?



here you go


----------



## ahussains

What will be the possiable Equipments and Changes if Pakistan willing to Induct J10 

can any one ..


----------



## IceCold

ahussains said:


> What will be the possiable Equipments and Changes if Pakistan willing to Induct J10
> 
> can any one ..



pakistan will be looking for an advance version of the J-10 possibly called super-10 with an AESA radar and a TVC. If J-10 are inducted in its current status, only the avonics will be of western orgin and perhaps the chinese domestic engine will power it.


----------



## Quwa

I think FC-20 will be the modified/upgraded J-10 - which is poised to be in the Eurofighter/Rafale class...and it would make sence too as it would be a solid counter to the IAF MRCA.


----------



## ahussains

J10 is good and a nice plane so far more then 70 Air craft was build and are in use of PLAAF it was a good option for PAF also because there is no chance of getting any new plane from any westren country and we have to on chainess , Its not easy to mixing J10 with Chiness and Westren Avioncis because every one have to open its equipemnts to each other this is really tough decision for any one ... ?


----------



## corebag

PAF should commit j-10 squardan for naval support and air defence for Karachi and to replace miraj5 or at least purchase 30 aircraft like su33, rafale m


----------



## MOSABJA

Can it match Su 30 Mki .Su 30 Mki is avery capable aircraft that India has .Pakistan must have some thing to counter it.


----------



## mxiong

Don't worry about it. J-10 w/ AESA + TVC will shoot down Su-30MKI like turkeys its not even funny.


----------



## Owais

MOSABJA said:


> Can it match Su 30 Mki .Su 30 Mki is avery capable aircraft that India has .Pakistan must have some thing to counter it.



we are getting F-16 to counter Mki
also, JF-17/F-10 backed by AWACs can easily kill Mki. We will get F-10 with AESA Radar in order to have an edge over Mki and their 126 MRCA


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

Owais said:


> we are getting F-16 to counter Mki
> also, JF-17/F-10 backed by AWACs can easily kill Mki. We will get F-10 with AESA Radar in order to have an edge over Mki and their 126 MRCA



*I agree with your first part but F-10 with AESA, i think not!*

PESA on J-10 advanced model F-10 or Super 10 what ever its designation in PAF will be, is likely but AESA from China requires atleast 3+ years to come!


----------



## KENT

Mark Sien said:


> I think FC-20 will be the modified/upgraded J-10 - which is poised to be in the Eurofighter/Rafale class...and it would make sence too as it would be a solid counter to the IAF MRCA.



Let the final specification of IAF MRCA comes out, as Lockheed has offered IAF with Supercruising F-16.


----------



## KENT

mxiong said:


> Don't worry about it. J-10 w/ AESA + TVC will shoot down Su-30MKI like turkeys its not even funny.



AESA+TVC J-10

We dream lots of things about our future but very little of it come every day.


----------



## KENT

Owais said:


> we are getting F-16 to counter Mki
> also, JF-17/F-10 backed by AWACs can easily kill Mki. We will get F-10 with AESA Radar in order to have an edge over Mki and their 126 MRCA



I never thaught about exclusivity of MKI as it will go head on against fighter planes like J-17/F-10 with AWACS.


----------



## Owais

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> *I agree with your first part but F-10 with AESA, i think not!*
> 
> PESA on J-10 advanced model F-10 or Super 10 what ever its designation in PAF will be, is likely but AESA from China requires atleast 3+ years to come!



I didn't say that F-10 will be having chinese AESA. we are looking for western avionics and radar for F-10.


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

Owais said:


> I didn't say that F-10 will be having chinese AESA. we are looking for western avionics and radar for F-10.



My friend,

It seems very very less likely that Pakistan can atain an AESA tech from West as only US has and Europe is in making one. So is the case with Russia and China.

*I would like to add that the day Flankers have AESA on board, no Jet except F-22 Raptor will be able to engage a Flanker (SU-27 and Onwards) without better ECM suite or AWACS support.*


----------



## Quwa

The new J-10 variant in testing by CAC will eventually have AESA, by 2015 at the latest - around the time the 36-40 FC-20 will be inducted into PAF. Chinese AESA technology is already on large platforms or set to be on large platforms, their smaller fighter based systems have been in development for a while as well. Nonetheless be assured FC-20 will have AESA, by 2015.


----------



## mxiong

KENT said:


> AESA+TVC J-10
> 
> We dream lots of things about our future but very little of it come every day.



That is for the virtue of humility . Because I don't want the heated response if the truth was spoken as "J-10 TODAY will shoot down Su-30MKI like turkeys its not even funny".


----------



## IceCold

mxiong said:


> That is for the virtue of humility . Because I don't want the heated response if the truth was spoken as "J-10 TODAY will shoot down Su-30MKI like turkeys its not even funny".



Hey man! no offence but i think you are actually under estimating the indian MKI. Its one of the best in the flanker series actually more better then the mk and mk2 the chinese have. J-10 is a capable jet and with time i believe the way chinese are going, it will only get better but shooting down a MKI like a turkey is far fletched.


----------



## ahussains

What is the best Suit of Avioncis for PAF in J-10 / FC -20


----------



## mxiong

IceCold said:


> Hey man! no offence but i think you are actually under estimating the indian MKI. Its one of the best in the flanker series actually more better then the mk and mk2 the chinese have. J-10 is a capable jet and with time i believe the way chinese are going, it will only get better but shooting down a MKI like a turkey is far fletched.



Now Su-30MKK/MKK2 in PLAAF/PLANAF are used just as long-range bombers, that's exactly because during AoA exercises "J-10 shot down Su-30s like turkeys its not even funny". You many argue how much Su-30MKI is better than Su-30MKK/MKK2 which might make a difference, which I kinda agree, so allow me to change the words:"J-10 will shoot down Su-30MKI like fighters its serious".


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

mxiong said:


> Now Su-30MKK/MKK2 in PLAAF/PLANAF are used just as long-range bombers, that's exactly because during AoA exercises "J-10 shot down Su-30s like turkeys its not even funny". You many argue how much Su-30MKI is better than Su-30MKK/MKK2 which might make a difference, which I kinda agree, so allow me to change the words:"J-10 will shoot down Su-30MKI like fighters its serious".



*I totally disagree with you!*....

*SU-30MKI and J-10 are no match when it comes to BVR.

In the league of WVR also donot give Su-30MKI a blink otherwise the best will be downed.*


----------



## ahussains

So if MKI also have AESA and conects with the AWACS what will happend


----------



## KENT

mxiong said:


> That is for the virtue of humility . Because I don't want the heated response if the truth was spoken as "J-10 TODAY will shoot down Su-30MKI like turkeys its not even funny".



Definetly you have complete faith on you J-10 as it will shoot down Su-30MKI as it is natural for anyone as J-10 is from your country. You know I can even says that our LCA can even shot down Su-30MKI. But alas the truth is way away from our dreaming perspective.


----------



## KENT

mxiong said:


> Now Su-30MKK/MKK2 in PLAAF/PLANAF are used just as long-range bombers,



but there is way differene between Su-30MKK and Su-30MKI.



mxiong said:


> that's exactly because during AoA exercises "J-10 shot down Su-30s like turkeys its not even funny".



But it doesn't imply that it can even shot down Su-30MKI.



mxiong said:


> You many argue how much Su-30MKI is better than Su-30MKK/MKK2 which might make a difference, which I kinda agree, so allow me to change the words:"J-10 will shoot down Su-30MKI like fighters its serious".



What does exactly mean about last pairs of words? "J-10 will shoot down Su-30MKI like fighters its serious"

What does this mean serious over here?


----------



## KENT

ahussains said:


> So if MKI also have AESA and conects with the AWACS what will happend



First of all MKI doesn't need any AWACS support, since its radar and ECM suite is more then enough to engage any target except F-22.


----------



## Keysersoze

KENT said:


> First of all MKI doesn't need any AWACS support, since its radar and ECM suite is more then enough to engage any target except F-22.



err no.....you need to do more study on ranges and rcs


----------



## ahussains

KENT said:


> You know I can even says that our LCA can even shot down Su-30MKI. But alas the truth is way away from our dreaming perspective.



then what is the purpose of MKI if LCA shoot down..


----------



## solid snake

ahussains said:


> then what is the purpose of MKI if LCA shoot down..



He's being sarcastic.


----------



## KENT

ahussains said:


> then what is the purpose of MKI if LCA shoot down..



Since MKI is long range bomber, huge payload which LCA lacks.


----------



## KENT

solid snake said:


> He's being sarcastic.



Sarcastic by what proporation! 

If J-10 can shot down MKI according to previous chinese poster then why can't LCA shot down MKI.


----------



## IceCold

KENT said:


> Sarcastic! solid snake by what proporation.
> 
> If J-10 can shot down MKI according previous chinese poster then tell me why can't LCA shot down MKI according to me.



LCA is a light combact aircraft, it too cannot be compared with the J-10, J-10 is a heavy bomber just like the MKI with more range. However i highly doubt that the J-10 in its current status can shot down the MKI like turkeys. I believe there was more patriotism then knowledge when such a statement was concluded.


----------



## su-47

IceCold said:


> LCA is a light combact aircraft, it too cannot be compared with the J-10, J-10 is a heavy bomber just like the MKI with more range. However i highly doubt that the J-10 in its current status can shot down the MKI like turkeys. I believe there was more patriotism then knowledge when such a statement was concluded.



well put. i read in the Janes Defence Magazine that the Americans compare the J-10 to a mid-model F-16. They are more concerned about the sheer numbers of the J-10 rather than its technical aspects. Considering the fact that the american air force will have more information about the J-10 than any of us civilians, i think their statement is pretty accurate. 

that being said, i think the j-10 is a superb plane. it might not be a technological marvel, but it gets the job done. it is quite high-tech, relatively cheap and can be mass produced. in a war, numbers matter, and the j-10 is built for crushing enemies with numerical superiority.


----------



## KENT

IceCold said:


> LCA is a light combact aircraft, it too cannot be compared with the J-10, J-10 is a heavy bomber just like the MKI with more range.




Correct, but there is much to be taken into account with mere range and payload and hence I had as I didn't compared LCA with J-10 rather Su-30MKI.



IceCold said:


> However i highly doubt that the J-10 in its current status can shot down the MKI like turkeys. I believe there was more patriotism then knowledge when such a statement was concluded.



You are beng on target


----------



## IceCold

su-47 said:


> well put. i read in the Janes Defence Magazine that the Americans compare the J-10 to a mid-model F-16. They are more concerned about the sheer numbers of the J-10 rather than its technical aspects. Considering the fact that the american air force will have more information about the J-10 than any of us civilians, i think their statement is pretty accurate.
> 
> that being said, i think the j-10 is a superb plane. it might not be a technological marvel, but it gets the job done. it is quite high-tech, relatively cheap and can be mass produced. in a war, numbers matter, and the j-10 is built for crushing enemies with numerical superiority.



Its considered equal to a block 40 of the F-16 in its current status, however with a better radar for instance the way chinese are working an AESA radar and a possible TVC, it will be considered top noch and in the same league as other modern day fighter jets of 4.5th gen are. But i assume it will take another five years or so to achieve that level, i might be wrong here.


----------



## IceCold

KENT said:


> Correct, but there is much to be taken into account with mere range and payload and hence I had as I didn't compared LCA with J-10 rather Su-30MKI.



Yes indeed, there are other things as well that speak for themselves, for e.g the radar, the ECM suite, avonics, TVC.


----------



## EagleEyes

su-47 said:


> well put. i read in the Janes Defence Magazine that the Americans compare the J-10 to a mid-model F-16. They are more concerned about the sheer numbers of the J-10 rather than its technical aspects. Considering the fact that the american air force will have more information about the J-10 than any of us civilians, i think their statement is pretty accurate.
> 
> that being said, i think the j-10 is a superb plane. it might not be a technological marvel, but it gets the job done. it is quite high-tech, relatively cheap and can be mass produced. in a war, numbers matter, and the j-10 is built for crushing enemies with numerical superiority.



J-10 has outclassed Su-27 in air superiority role (Much of the Su-30). J-10 can match Su-30MKK in ground role anyday.

Dont listen to those critics. The real guys who should be concerned of this new fighter, are concerned with it. If you read that magazine again, those people are nobody.


----------



## EagleEyes

KENT said:


> Sarcastic by what proporation!
> 
> If J-10 can shot down MKI according to previous chinese poster then why can't LCA shot down MKI.



LCA can't because it has no radar or any missile currently.  But armed with a good radar and a missile it can shoot down the turkey any day.


----------



## usmanshiekh786

well i think pakistan should not get any more f16s and united states is selling them to india. j10 would be our answer to any threat that we will have. i think pakistan shuould cancle f16s and get some thing better


----------



## blain2

In the greater scheme of things, just wanted to throw this out there that no two countries with F-16s in their inventories have gone to war....This is one of the slogans pushed by LM...there is some truth behind it but obviously there is more to it than just the F-16s 

So maybe F-16s in PAF and IAF may not be a bad thing after all.


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

blain2 said:


> In the greater scheme of things, just wanted to throw this out there that no two countries with F-16s in their inventories have gone to war....This is one of the slogans pushed by LM...there is some truth behind it but obviously there is more to it than just the F-16s
> 
> So maybe F-16s in PAF and IAF may not be a bad thing after all.



India will never go the US way.... *No way!*

And if such a miracle happened then we shall see a broader spectrum of Choices for PAF other than Rafle, EF and J-10.


----------



## KENT

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> India will never go the US way.... *No way!*



Mate, right now IAF is not only looking out for Ultra-Modern fighter planes comprises of MRCA, but also Air to ground ammunition and BVR missiles as well as not to forget AESA. In all the contender of MRCA, only US counterparts are offering some of the top-noth ammunition,AESA and BVR weapons. So we can safely assume that either Rafale or F-18EF are going to become a part of IAF. 




Proud to be Pakistani said:


> And if such a miracle happened then we shall see a broader spectrum of Choices for PAF other than Rafle, EF and J-10.



Not only this fighter planes but also BVR and AESA as well.


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

KENT said:


> Mate, right now IAF is not only looking out for Ultra-Modern fighter planes comprises of MRCA, but also Air to ground ammunition and BVR missiles as well as not to forget AESA. In all the contender of MRCA, only US counterparts are offering some of the top-noth ammunition,AESA and BVR weapons. So we can safely assume that either Rafale or F-18EF are going to become a part of IAF.
> 
> Not only this fighter planes but also BVR and AESA as well.



India becoming a part of US arms sale is highly unlikely but you can presume what you want!

Thou it does good to Pakistan if India becomes a Part of US arms purchasing network since it will in turn only weaken the bond it has with Russia which is primarily only and only due to Military Purchases=Money!


----------



## KENT

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> India becoming a part of US arms sale is highly unlikely but you can presume what you want!



Recall about the deals of USN Trenton as well as $ 1 Billion deal of C-130 Hercules then you will come to know about impertiveness of MRCA deal with US offer of F-16 and F-18.




Proud to be Pakistani said:


> Thou it does good to Pakistan if India becomes a Part of US arms purchasing network since it will in turn only weaken the bond it has with Russia



How convient for you to proclaim that US cosying up with India will bring Pakistan and Russia closer?

Have you forgotten about $5 Billion deal for PAK-FA, Space technology coopeartion, Infrastrucutre, Nucler plant at Kalppakam, Billions of dollers of purchase of Naval ships etc?



Proud to be Pakistani said:


> which is primarily only and only due to Military Purchases=Money!



Right now Trade and Investment as well Military cooperation between India and Russia is worth of Ultra-Billion doller. How much pakistan can contribute as compared to India in terms of Doller value?


----------



## TOPGUN

Guys just wondering why is it taking so long to get these j-10's any one know or have any views?? thx


----------



## blain2

TOPGUN said:


> Guys just wondering why is it taking so long to get these j-10's any one know or have any views?? thx



J-10 requires integration of PAF specific requirements (quite a few things on the list). Only after the aircraft meets these requirements (which include robust air to air and air to surface capabilities), it would be inducted.


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## TOPGUN

Thx Colonel!!!!!!!


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## fatman17

_update on J-10 MRF..._

J-10 Multirole Fighter Aircraft

Last updated: 7 February 2008

Variants 

J-10 
J-10S 

Information 

J-10 History 
J-10 Design 
J-10 Weapons 
J-10 Powerplant 
J-10 Deployment 
J-10 Pictures 

J-10 in the News 

J-10 Fighter to be Fitted with a Chinese-Made Engine (17 Apr 07) 
J-10 Fighter Officially Declassified (29 Dec 06) 
Russia Signed AL-31 Engine Deal with China (31 July 05) 

The Chengdu J-10 (Jianji-10, or Jian-10), China&#8217;s first indigenous third-generation fighter aircraft, flew for the first time on 22 March 1998. The Chinese state media first announced the J-10 in November 2006, two years after the aircraft entered operational service with the People&#8217;s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). The J-10 is a single-engine, all-weather multirole fighter aircraft with &#8216;beyond-visual-range&#8217; air-to-air combat and surface attack capabilities. The aircraft is built in one-seater J-10 fighter and two-seater J-10S fighter-trainer configurations.

The development of the J-10 has been carried out by the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (also known as 611 Institute) of the Aviation Industries of China I (AVIC I). The aircraft is manufactured the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) of AVIC I at its production facilities located in the suburb of Chengdu City.

The initial batch of 80~100 examples were delivered to the PLAAF between 2004 and 2006, while it was estimated that a total of 300 aircraft may be required by the PLAAF and PLA Navy. A number of countries including Pakistan, Iran, and Thailand have also shown strong interest in the aircraft. *Some reports suggested that Pakistan will receive the first export version of the J-10, up to 36 aircraft, by around 2010*.


The J-10S fighter-trainer is identical to the single-seater variant in performance and avionic configuration, but has its forward fuselage stretched to accommodate a second pilot seat. Two pilots sit in tandem in the two-seat cockpit with one single large bubble canopy. An enlarged dorsal spine accommodates additional avionic for the second pilot. The aircraft can be used for pilot training or as a standard fighter. A Chinese report suggested that the aircraft could also be modified for the airborne command & control aircraft role, with the rear-seat pilot being the commander of a small four-plane formation.

The J-10 programme had been kept under tight security and high secrecy by the Chinese authority. The development is believed to have benefited from Israeli and Russian technologies, though the two countries were not directly involved in the design work. The J-10&#8217;s aerodynamic layout was heavily influenced by the cancelled Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI) Lavi fighter, and Israel also supplied the software of Lavi&#8217;s &#8220;fly-by-wire&#8221; control. Russia supplied the AL-31F turbofan engine as the J-10&#8217;s powerplant, and may also offered avionics technology to be used on the J-10&#8217;s fire-control radar.

The J-10 was originally developed as an air-superiority fighter to counter the Soviet Union&#8217;s emerging fourth-generation fighters, the Mikoyan MiG-29 and Sukhoi Su-27. However, changes in security environment and operational requirements has shifted the development towards a multirole fighter aircraft. Instead of purely for air defence mission, the aircraft was asked to take on the air-to-surface attack role too. This transformation was partially due to financial consideration, but more importantly it reflects the PLAAF&#8217;s ambition to build an air power with both defensive and offensive capabilities.

The J-10 marks the highest achievement of the Chinese aviation industry in the 1990s. The programme featured a large amount of new technologies, including composite materials, computerised flight-control (&#8220;fly-by-wire&#8221 system, advanced radar and cockpit electronics, computer-aided design and manufacturing (CAD/CAM), etc. In the J-10 programme, China not only obtained a third-generation fighter aircraft, but also gained considerable knowledge and experience in modern fighter technologies. Through the J-10 programme, the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute and Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation have involved into China&#8217;s second aerospace research and development centre, capable of carrying out fighter aircraft design, development, and manufacturing independently.

Despite the huge publicity the J-10 has enjoyed on the Chinese media, no official data has been provided regarding the actual capabilities and performance of the aircraft. Without basic data such as the aircraft&#8217;s dimension and weight, one can only make estimates based on information available from open sources. The real performance of the aircraft, however, remains a state secret.

UK-based Air Force Monthly magazine published in its January 2007 issue some estimated data of the J-10: Length: 15.50m; Wingspan: 9.7m; Wing area: 39m2; Empty weight: 8,300kg; Maximum take-off weight: 18,000kg; Air-to-air combat weight: 13,200kg; Maximum speed: Mach 2.2 (high-level) or Mach 1.2 (sea-level); Internal fuel: 4,500kg.

The Jane&#8217;s All the World&#8217;s Aircraft made some similar estimates: Length: 16.50m; Wingspan: 9.36m; wing area: 34.6m2; Empty weight: 8,300kg; Maximum range: 2,300km (internal fuel only) or 2,900km (with drop tanks); Service ceiling: 19,000m.

Based on the above estimates, it can be concluded that the J-10 is about the same size as a Lockheed Martin F-16. With its canard configuration and slightly larger wing, the J-10 probably has slightly better manoeuvrability than the F-16. The aircraft also features some major characteristics of Western third-generation fighters such as the F-16 and the Boeing F/A-18, including the computerised &#8220;fly-by-wire&#8221; (FBW) flight control; the use of high-thrust afterburning turbofan jet engine that ensures a near 1:1 thrust-to-weight ratio for high performance 8~9g combat manoeuvring; and the ability to employ advanced radar and weapons.

The J-10 is powered by a 122.5kN (12,500kg or 27,557 lb) thrust Salyut AL-31FN turbofan engine, with 4,500kg internal fuel. The aircraft also features a digital fuel management system to help improve fuel assumption efficiency. The combat radius of the aircraft was estimated to be 550~600km, but it could be extended to over 1,000km once the aircraft is added with the aerial refuelling capability, which has already been demonstrated on a J-10 prototype.

The J-10 has made some significant improvements in avionics, which is traditionally a major weakness for all Chinese-made fighters. CAC revealed that the indigenous radar equipped by the J-10 is a pulse-Doppler (PD) design with a mechanically slewed planar array antenna, capable of tracking 10 targets and engaging 2 (using semi-active radar-homing AAM) or 4 (using active radar-homing AAM) of them simultaneously. Possibly based on Russian or Israeli technologies, the radar is believed to be comparable to the early 1990s era Western fighter radar designs. Alternatively the J-10 could be fitted with a range of fire-control radar introduced by Russian, Israeli, and European manufacturers on its export variant.

The workload of the J-10 pilot is greatly reduced, thank to the modern human-machine interface of the J-10's cockpit, which features a wide field of view head-up display (HUD), a full-colour and two monochrome LCD multi-functional displays (MFD), Western-style &#8220;Hands On Throttle And Stick&#8221; (HOTAS) controls, and an indigenous helmet-mounted sight (HMS).

For air-superiority mission, the fighter carries 2~4 PL-11 (semi-active radar-homing) or PL-12 (active radar-homing) medium-range air-to-air missiles (MRAAM), and two PL-8 or PL-9 all-aspect IR-homing short-range air-to-air missiles (SRAAM). The J-10 was the first Chinese-made fighter to have surface attack capability in mind right from the design stage. The fighter is fully capable of all-weather offensive strikes, and could be fitted with a forward looking infrared and laser target designator pod. The AVIC I has displayed a model of the J-10 carrying what were believed to be targeting and navigation pods, which would provide the capability of the J-10 to deploy laser and satellite navigation guided weapons. In a typical surface attack mission, the fighter carries up to eight 250kg bombs, along with two drop tanks and two PL-8/9 SRAAMs.


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## solid snake

Nice. So it seems J-10 is on par with the F-18 except in terms of avionics. Which Pakistan can improve by fitting with western radar.


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## IceCold

[B said:


> Some reports suggested that Pakistan will receive the first export version of the J-10, up to 36 aircraft, by around 2010[/B].



So just like the F-16 why are not there any confirm reports about pakistan getting these birds. Its a known fact that PAF was interested in these jets but wanted some modifications mostly with the avonics, however if PAF did ordered them, whats the big secret all about?


----------



## EagleEyes

IceCold said:


> So just like the F-16 why are not there any confirm reports about pakistan getting these birds. Its a known fact that PAF was interested in these jets but wanted some modifications mostly with the avonics, however if PAF did ordered them, whats the big secret all about?



Pakistan is waiting for the order. Its too busy with F-16s and JF-17s right now. Organization takes a lot of time in this aspect.


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## asaad-ul-islam

PAF will get these aircraft, but only when they mature a little more. J-10 has a lot of potential.


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## araz

asaad-ul-islam said:


> PAF will get these aircraft, but only when they mature a little more. J-10 has a lot of potential.



I agree. At the moment we have our hands full inducting JF17. The process will take at least 2-3 yrs. By that time F16s will start to come in.Inducting those and setting up services for these will also consume some time. I suspect Paf weill wait till 2009 -10 before it orders J10s. we have no external pressures on us at the moment and can afford to wait. We needed to let the Americans know that we have an option to their precious F16s should they decide to sanction us and therefore the early announcement and the reduced order. I suspect in the same period PAF may order more F16s Bl52s. We may therefore have J10s coming in 2012/13 possibly with upgraded avionics and AESA radar as well as more composites
At least my 2 Ps worth
Araz


----------



## araz

blain2 said:


> J-10 requires integration of PAF specific requirements (quite a few things on the list). Only after the aircraft meets these requirements (which include robust air to air and air to surface capabilities), it would be inducted.



Blain2
Do you know what PAFs requirements for J10 are ?. As far as I can recall, there are questions about AESA radar, Indegenous engine, and avionics. But these are only guesses. Does anybody have any concrete idea about what specs PAF wants J10 to have.
Help would be appreciated
Araz


----------



## BATMAN

Why can't PAF stick only with multirole JF-17 and spend all the available resources to increase their numbers first as much possible.
I trust JF-17 is as gutsy as J-10. I'm also sure that its quality and potency will add further in the process of production and till 2010 we will have a JF-17 which would be better than today's J-10.


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## maqsad

I have read in many places that the J-10 is more advanced than the JF-17 but specifically what can the J-10 do that the JF-17 cannot be modified to do also? And the JF-17 costs around $20 million per plane so it makes me curious how much the J-10 costs per plane. From what I understand there will be 150 to 300 JF-17s in PAF eventually but so far only 37 J-10s are on order.


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## Titanium

Just look at it for a few seconds .......without taking your eyes off.

Now you know....what J-10 is about.


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## fatman17

maqsad said:


> I have read in many places that the J-10 is more advanced than the JF-17 but specifically what can the J-10 do that the JF-17 cannot be modified to do also? And the JF-17 costs around $20 million per plane so it makes me curious how much the J-10 costs per plane. From what I understand there will be 150 to 300 JF-17s in PAF eventually but so far only 37 J-10s are on order.



the JF-17 advanced version with western avionics and weapons will be costing around US$ 25-30m so the average cost of a JF-17 will fall in the 20-25m range.
i expect the J-10/F-10 to be in the 35-40m range esp with western avionics and weaqpons which PAF will insist upon. since the 1st F-10 in PAF livery is only expected by 2010-11 expect the cost to escalate.


----------



## IceCold

Titanium said:


> Just look at it for a few seconds .......without taking your eyes off.
> 
> Now you know....what J-10 is about.



Come on man! you posted it like its a F-22 raptor. The only difference at this stage between JF-17 and J-10 is of the payload. Its a heavy bomber/fighter carring more payload then that of the JF-17. Other then that the differences are minor as far as avonics are concerned but the way JF-17 is going and according to the AC, PAF is already trying to increase the payload by increasing the number of hard points from 7 to 9. Also with the help of in flight refueling the range will also be extended. 

As for the avonics, well there too J-10 doesnt exceed the margin by miles and since PAF is already looking for a new radar possibly an AESA radar so by the time an AESA radar will be made available for J-10, its very likely that JF-17 will also have the same.

Besides lets not forget that the F-16 block52 that we are getting is more advance then the chinese J-10, so IMO there is no point for going for a less capable jet when we have the option to get more of these jets. However we should only exercise the option for J-10 if and only if the F-16s get sactioned otherwise it will be a waiste of resources.

Also we shouldnt forget that the jets of 21st century will have a whole new breed of capabilities that the J-10 misses for instance

1) AESA radar
2) Super cruise
3) TVC
4) Stealth

So far none of these capabilities are with the PAF. Even if the stealth and TVC are removed from the equation, the ability to super cruise and an AESA radar is a must and we should focus are ability to induct these rather going for something which isnt even surpassing the F-16s that we will get inshallah.

In the end i would say we need to focus on the JF-17 and the F-16s and we need to exercise the option for the 18 more of these birds and then spare our resources for something like the EF or Rafale which will make PAF into a ROBUST force of the 21st century.


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## blain2

araz said:


> Blain2
> Do you know what PAFs requirements for J10 are ?. As far as I can recall, there are questions about AESA radar, Indegenous engine, and avionics. But these are only guesses. Does anybody have any concrete idea about what specs PAF wants J10 to have.
> Help would be appreciated
> Araz



Araz,

I would be lying if I told you what these exact, specific mods really are...I do know that PAF has specific things that they want to see on the aircraft and really, really like the aircraft because of its potential


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## blain2

BATMAN said:


> Why can't PAF stick only with multirole JF-17 and spend all the available resources to increase their numbers first as much possible.
> I trust JF-17 is as gutsy as J-10. I'm also sure that its quality and potency will add further in the process of production and till 2010 we will have a JF-17 which would be better than today's J-10.



Range, Payload, hardpoints etc. are all much better on the J-10 than JF-17. JF-17 is a light MR aircraft in Gripen/Tejas (much to the consternation of our Indian friends  class. J-10 with appropriate avionics and weapons suite allows PAF a tremendous boost in its MR capability. JF-17 is good, however instead of spending more money on it and making it more expensive, it would come with a decent package of weapons and avionics and provide the replacement for the older airframes in large numbers.

The J-10 as inducted by the PAF would not be the same as the Chinese variant..as always if available, western avionics would be integrated by the PAF and potentially even western armaments (after going through the process of doing the same on the JF-17, I would think this would be an easier task).


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

J-10 might enter service in the PAF by 2009 or 2010, there is already a committee set up to handle the deal as the articles mention. Insha'Allah by then China should have an AESA radar ready for the J-10, what I'm hoping for is TVC, but that's not that big of a deal.


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## blain2

asaad-ul-islam said:


> J-10 might enter service in the PAF by 2009 or 2010, there is already a committee set up to handle the deal as the articles mention. Insha'Allah by then China should have an AESA radar ready for the J-10, what I'm hoping for is TVC, but that's not that big of a deal.



TVC is not the end of it all. I think a very good EW/ECM suit, good stand-off weaponry and a decent radar are the combo that PAF should focus on. Keep in mind that TVC brings in additional maintenance and support headaches and with BVR/WVR weaponry constantly improving, the survival of the aircraft with fancy maneuvers becomes harder (the machines are able to do awesome things, but are limited by what a human body can take).


----------



## araz

blain2 said:


> Araz,
> 
> I would be lying if I told you what these exact, specific mods really are...I do know that PAF has specific things that they want to see on the aircraft and really, really like the aircraft because of its potential



Thank you for your reponse. i understand.
Araz


----------



## BATMAN

blain2 said:


> Range, Payload, hardpoints etc. are all much better on the J-10 than JF-17. JF-17 is a light MR aircraft in Gripen/Tejas (much to the consternation of our Indian friends  class. J-10 with appropriate avionics and weapons suite allows PAF a tremendous boost in its MR capability. JF-17 is good, however instead of spending more money on it and making it more expensive, it would come with a decent package of weapons and avionics and provide the replacement for the older airframes in large numbers.
> 
> The J-10 as inducted by the PAF would not be the same as the Chinese variant..as always if available, western avionics would be integrated by the PAF and potentially even western armaments (after going through the process of doing the same on the JF-17, I would think this would be an easier task).



Thanks for the information, I was just looking from the point of priorities.
In my opinion PAF should attempt to get rid of its ageing fleet first and full induction and integration of JF-17. Later things can be re-evaluated from the fresh perspectives.
Having said that I still welcome any improvement.


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

BATMAN said:


> In my opinion PAF should attempt to get rid of its ageing fleet first and full induction and integration of JF-17.


yea, things are starting to look good for the PAF. I still think PAF should consider starting another joint venture with china immediately, but perhaps on something that includes stealth. of course pakistan and turkey have already given that thought. 
we haven't had anything in a while, our neighbor had the best tech and BVR missiles. that was the lost decade for the PAF because we relied sources that would dump us in hour of need. now, alhamdulillah, we will make our own and hopefully will never have to look up to any nation again.


----------



## Quwa

asaad-ul-islam said:


> yea, things are starting to look good for the PAF. I still think PAF should consider starting another joint venture with china immediately, but perhaps on something that includes stealth. of course pakistan and turkey have already given that thought.
> we haven't had anything in a while, our neighbor had the best tech and BVR missiles. that was the lost decade for the PAF because we relied sources that would dump us in hour of need. now, alhamdulillah, we will make our own and hopefully will never have to look up to any nation again.


Based on pshamim's posts, there is enough to suggest that PAF is at least studying the feasibility of funding & developing a stealth fighter. First we need to consider that it is an eventuality, it will happen ultimately. 

Second the issue is not if, but rather when PAF would initiate a project...JF-17 has set the precedent, the stealth fighter will be manufactured in Pakistan. It will probably see more Pakistani input...the idea of "joint-venture" will likely be seen in smaller stand-alone projects that all lead to the big bird. Hence the cooperation with Turkey, South Africa & Ukraine in a diverse range of areas. 

Third we need to admit that the PAF caught up very fast and effeciently...it is set to induct 4-4.5+ generation fighters in mass at the same time as IAF, KSAF & other equivalents across the world. If IAF has already signed onto a 5th generation fighter, then it should mean PAF has a team working on formulating a plan. I do not think major concerns will include hardware, material or suppliers in general...but rather the technical issues of design, testing and finances. 

However...the idea of "joint-development" might be more multilateral as the nature of the project will be felt by not only Pakistan...but also Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Algeria - possibly Turkey, South Africa & Brazil as well. In this case Pakistan has much more flexibility as the project would not only have access to a diverse range of expertise - but very large base of funds. 

This is my take based on basic media reporting of JF-17...

1) PAF & Pakistani R&D are studying preliminary conceptual designs from CAC and SAC which were dropped in favour for the J-14 design. Like the JF-17...chances are that the "team" would look at incorporating widely used designs, i.e. something resembling F/A-22. The Sukhoi T-50 and most of the stealth fighters out there are using the F/A-22 concept.

2) PAF/Pak-R&D with CAC/SAC would jointly design a basic concept outlining the performance parameters; materials; key hardware; key capabilities such as internal payload, TVC, etc. We may see more of a "localization" in terms of capability to use coal-based synthetic jet-fuel, etc - as this may become a part of Pakistani resource production in the future. 

3) The design will be unveiled, PAC & CAC/SAC would sign an MoU to develop it in 2010-2011...Pakistan would release first phase of funds. At this point we would hope for further participation from Saudi Arabia - as at this point - has no direct access to a 5th generation fighter. Next we may see participation from Malaysia, Algeria, Turkey and Brazil - all of whom seek to become key regional powers. Not sure about South Africa...but it could go either way with them...but contracted support may be seen from South Africa, South Korea, France, etc in very specific areas.

4) The partners would have varying levels of participation and input. One might expect extensive composite & airframe experience from Brazil & China. Sensor fusion, integration, etc, experience from Turkey & Pakistan. Multiple smaller projects relating to the aircraft through work from Malaysian, Saudi, Algerian and small firms from all walks. 

5) Engine would probably be Chinese...manufacturing plants would be set up in the participating countries wishing to produce the aircraft. Not sure if we would see standardization of avionics, ECM/EW, radar, weapon-systems, etc...chances are all will do their own thing in this regard.

6) Production starting at around 2020-2022...PAF replacing first 50 JF-17 & 60 F-16A/B MLU by early 2030s. Hopefully they would call it the ITF-24 "Saker" or "Aquila" - ITF standing for "Intercontinental Fighter"  I think 2020 could be a very interesting year...the 5th generation Al Khalid-2 MBT; maybe reveal the design for a new SSK and FFG, etc...call it the start of the new Golden Era.


----------



## Proud to be Pakistani

I would only say very futuristic!

*But i will love to see it Happen!*


----------



## IceCold

Mark Sien said:


> Based on pshamim's posts, there is enough to suggest that PAF is at least studying the feasibility of funding & developing a stealth fighter. First we need to consider that it is an eventuality, it will happen ultimately.
> 
> Second the issue is not if, but rather when PAF would initiate a project...JF-17 has set the precedent, the stealth fighter will be manufactured in Pakistan. It will probably see more Pakistani input...the idea of "joint-venture" will likely be seen in smaller stand-alone projects that all lead to the big bird. Hence the cooperation with Turkey, South Africa & Ukraine in a diverse range of areas.
> 
> Third we need to admit that the PAF caught up very fast and effeciently...it is set to induct 4-4.5+ generation fighters in mass at the same time as IAF, KSAF & other equivalents across the world. If IAF has already signed onto a 5th generation fighter, then it should mean PAF has a team working on formulating a plan. I do not think major concerns will include hardware, material or suppliers in general...but rather the technical issues of design, testing and finances.
> 
> However...the idea of "joint-development" might be more multilateral as the nature of the project will be felt by not only Pakistan...but also Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Algeria - possibly Turkey, South Africa & Brazil as well. In this case Pakistan has much more flexibility as the project would not only have access to a diverse range of expertise - but very large base of funds.
> 
> This is my take based on basic media reporting of JF-17...
> 
> 1) PAF & Pakistani R&D are studying preliminary conceptual designs from CAC and SAC which were dropped in favour for the J-14 design. Like the JF-17...chances are that the "team" would look at incorporating widely used designs, i.e. something resembling F/A-22. The Sukhoi T-50 and most of the stealth fighters out there are using the F/A-22 concept.
> 
> 2) PAF/Pak-R&D with CAC/SAC would jointly design a basic concept outlining the performance parameters; materials; key hardware; key capabilities such as internal payload, TVC, etc. We may see more of a "localization" in terms of capability to use coal-based synthetic jet-fuel, etc - as this may become a part of Pakistani resource production in the future.
> 
> 3) The design will be unveiled, PAC & CAC/SAC would sign an MoU to develop it in 2010-2011...Pakistan would release first phase of funds. At this point we would hope for further participation from Saudi Arabia - as at this point - has no direct access to a 5th generation fighter. Next we may see participation from Malaysia, Algeria, Turkey and Brazil - all of whom seek to become key regional powers. Not sure about South Africa...but it could go either way with them...but contracted support may be seen from South Africa, South Korea, France, etc in very specific areas.
> 
> 4) The partners would have varying levels of participation and input. One might expect extensive composite & airframe experience from Brazil & China. Sensor fusion, integration, etc, experience from Turkey & Pakistan. Multiple smaller projects relating to the aircraft through work from Malaysian, Saudi, Algerian and small firms from all walks.
> 
> 5) Engine would probably be Chinese...manufacturing plants would be set up in the participating countries wishing to produce the aircraft. Not sure if we would see standardization of avionics, ECM/EW, radar, weapon-systems, etc...chances are all will do their own thing in this regard.
> 
> 6) Production starting at around 2020-2022...PAF replacing first 50 JF-17 & 60 F-16A/B MLU by early 2030s. Hopefully they would call it the ITF-24 "Saker" or "Aquila" - ITF standing for "Intercontinental Fighter"  I think 2020 could be a very interesting year...the 5th generation Al Khalid-2 MBT; maybe reveal the design for a new SSK and FFG, etc...call it the start of the new Golden Era.



Well as much as its good to read it, i do have doubts about it one for the reason that too many countries are involved in it specially countires like SouthAfrica and Brazil. A simple pressure from the US could lead these countries to withdraw their efforts from the above mentioned jet.
As for turkey, well Turkey is already a partner in JSF, does it need to get involved in another fighter programe that remains doubtful. However we can see a possible joint venture between countires like pakistan, china, Malaysia, Ukraine and SA for funding of the programe.


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## Quwa

IceCold said:


> Well as much as its good to read it, i do have doubts about it one for the reason that too many countries are involved in it specially countires like SouthAfrica and Brazil. A simple pressure from the US could lead these countries to withdraw their efforts from the above mentioned jet.
> As for turkey, well Turkey is already a partner in JSF, does it need to get involved in another fighter programe that remains doubtful. However we can see a possible joint venture between countires like pakistan, china, Malaysia, Ukraine and SA for funding of the programe.


I wasn't so sure about South Africa as a partner, but as a contracted supplier it is very possible. For Brazil...it is set to be one of the leading new industrialized states alongside China and India...it has a regional and strategic goal. Perhaps the U.S. could offer it the F-35...however the other fighter has its technological and financial merits. In the end it is up to Brazil...but do not discount them just like that.

As for Turkey...as good as F-35 is, do remember that Turkey wants to be a key regional player in the East-West link. How can it offer influence if its air force is already "half-hacked" by NATO? The F-35...everyone in Western Europe would know about it...it would just keep Turkey's AF half armed. The Turks are on a massive localization drive of their weapons...and unlike T-129, MITUP, MILGEM, TF-2000, TIHA UAV, etc...F-35 is not as closely attached nor fully exploitable by Turkey. If the Turks want to dash another T on a fighter and truly make it a real force...then they will need a better sense of stealth...F-35 does not offer that. Eventually they will need to replace their newer F-16s, and if they want to really want to compete with Western Europe...they ought to introduce a fighter none of them can crack.


----------



## BATMAN

Pair of Chinese fighter planes form PLAAF&#8217;s high-low mix
By David Donald

February 21, 2008


> *
> Aircraft *
> China&#8217;s march to overhaul its front-line fighter fleet is making good progress, thanks to two major indigenous production programs involving the Chengdu J-10 and Shenyang J-11 models. The Chengdu product is an all-Chinese design that is now entering service in numbers. The J-11 is a license-built Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker, which in its latest production version incorporates important Chinese components.
> 
> Together, the two types are providing the People&#8217;s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) with a &#8220;high/low&#8221; fighter mix, akin to those employed by the U.S. (F-15/F-16) and Russia (Su-27/MiG-29). The advanced nature of both types signals China&#8217;s intentions to transform its air force from one in which sheer numbers could carry the day to one in which a much reduced number of aircraft can maintain the force&#8217;s effectiveness through technology.
> 
> *Vigorous Dragon*
> Called the &#8220;Vigorous Dragon,&#8221; the J-10 program dates back to 1983, when China initiated a multi-role fighter competition after the failure of several other programs. The Chengdu, Nanchang and Shenyang organizations submitted proposals and the first of these was chosen.
> 
> For the J-10, Chengdu drew upon its earlier J-9 fighter design. It also took full advantage of the developments of various Western technologies that were acquired in the 1970s under the Peace Pearl program, and subsequently in deals with Israeli and European companies.
> 
> In June 1997, the prototype was rolled out, making its maiden flight on March 23 the following year. An initial prototype batch of nine or 10 aircraft was followed by at least six preproduction aircraft. Exactly five years after the first flight, the aircraft&#8217;s test campaign officially ended in 2003, and a week later the first aircraft were delivered to the Chinese air force&#8217;s Operational Trials Regiment at Cangzhou.
> 
> The first front-line user was the 131st Regiment of the 44th Air Division at Kunming, which received its first aircraft on July 13, 2004. Later that year initial operating capability was declared and deliveries have subsequently been made to additional regiments. After years of speculation and sightings, the existence of the aircraft was made public officially only on Dec. 29, 2006.
> 
> Production of the J-10A single-seater runs at around 24 to 36 units per year and the production run is expected to reach 300 to 500 units. Partnering with the single-seater is a fully combat-capable two-seater, variously reported as the J-10B, J-10S or J-10AS. The first of two two-seater prototypes flew on Dec. 26, 2003, and since then J-10AS production has been interspersed with single-seaters on the assembly line. Trials have been performed with a retractable refueling probe, although this feature has not yet been seen on operational aircraft.
> 
> *J-11&#8217;s Flanker Pedigree*
> In 1992 the PLAAF received the first of an eventual 36 single-seat Su-27SK and 40 two-seat Su-27UBK fighters to re-equip key air defense units. Experience with the Flanker led to the type being adopted as the primary heavy fighter for the PLAAF. As a result, China went on not only to procure 100 Su-30MKKs and Su-30MKK2s for the fighter-bomber and maritime roles, but also to negotiate a license to assemble Su-27SK fighters at Shenyang.
> 
> In 1996 Sukhoi and Shenyang reached agreement to assemble 200 aircraft, initially from Russian KnAAPO-supplied kits followed by increasing local component manufacture. Designated J-11, the first was rolled out in 1998, although manufacturing problems led to a delay in full-scale production until 2000. Observers believe that 96 standard J-11s were produced by 2003.
> 
> The following year it was reported that production stopped at around 100 aircraft and that the J-11 no longer satisfied Chinese requirements. Under the terms of the original coproduction agreement there was no technological transfer for avionics or engines, and they had to be bought from Russia.
> 
> While production of the baseline J-11 was under way, Shenyang began work on an advanced version known as the J-11B, with Chinese engines and avionics. The locally developed WS-10A Taihang engine was tested in an Su-27SK and has been fitted to trial versions of the J-11B. The improved aircraft also has an indigenous radar housed in a new style radome and the type is compatible with a range of Chinese weapons. J-11Bs have undergone tests since 2003, while the radar was tested in a modified Shaanxi Y-8 (An-12).
> 
> *Engine Issues*
> China&#8217;s desperate search for a successful modern fighter turbofan reaches back decades, with a string of failures. In the 1970s and 1980s, Western technology was acquired in the shape of the Rolls-Royce Spey and the CFM International CFM56. The latter is thought to have provided the starting point for what became the Shenyang WS-10 turbofan. This engine was intended to power the J-10, although development was so slow it became obvious that it would not be ready in time for the new fighter.
> 
> In the early 1990s the embattled WS-10 program gained breathing space thanks to the Sukhoi fighter deal, which provided access to the Salyut (Lyulka) AL-31F engine that powers the Su-27. Negotiations soon began to procure AL-31Fs for the J-10. The first few prototypes flew with development WS-10s, but subsequent aircraft have been powered by the Salyut AL-31FN&#8211;a modified version of the Flanker engine with gearbox relocated to underneath to match the J-10&#8217;s single-engine requirements.
> 
> There have been four orders for the AL-31FN, the first reportedly totaling between 10 and 50, while the three subsequent purchases cover 254 engines.
> 
> Meanwhile, WS-10 development continued, including an increase in thrust to produce the WS-10A Taihang. As the Chinese engine was seen as a potential alternative to the AL-31F, the dimensions were kept the same as the Russian powerplant. Flight tests began in 2002, with one engine replacing an AL-31F in a test Su-27SK. The model was certified in 2006.
> 
> It now appears that J-11 production will use the WS-10A, while for the foreseeable future the J-10A will retain the Salyut powerplant. However, it is a stated aim to fit the WS-10A in the J-10. This program has ramifications in the export market, as a Taihang-powered J-10 would be an &#8220;all-Chinese&#8221; fighter completely free of outside export restrictions.
> 
> *Missile Ready*
> Both the J-10 and J-11B are adapted to carry the PL-12 active-radar air-to-air missile (equivalent to the U.S. AMRAAM), as well as earlier Chinese weapons such as the PL-8 (similar to Rafael Python 3) and the PL-11 (semi-active radar honing missile based on the Italian Aspide). Both types also have an impressive air-to-ground capability and are being developed to carry a range of precision weapons.
> 
> According to reports in the Chinese media, the J-10 and Flanker have met several times in mock combats, with the J-10 reportedly coming out on top in most engagements. This indicates not only its superior flight control system, but also highlights the capabilities of the aircraft&#8217;s indigenous avionics. However, the Flanker scores well in terms of range/load characteristics.


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## JimmyJ

The best option for Pakistan regarding 5th Gen should be to join the Chineese stealth project. There would be more understanding between the teams on the requirements.

One doubt will Pakistan go for a two engined or single engined 5th gen fighter. I mean taking into consideration that cross country flight across Pakistan won' take much time, will Pakistan be preferring a single engined craft..

For now if PAF is able to acquire J-10 and J-17 it should make the right mix along with the F-16 fleet.


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## BATMAN

^^ Any one can analyse that Pakistan military is a defensive army and so is its airforce. All our military build up is a result of various measures to counter the imminent aggression.
Following the same doctrine, so far PAF's inventory and development are of point defence nature.
Looking from the same angle, I suppose PAF will continue with single engine.
I also believe that going for twin engines have nothing to do with cross country over own country, infect twin engines are meant to carry offensive operations over foreign lands.
Twin engines are generally larger jets and lack the manuverability of single engine. Their prime role is bombing but now there are smaller twin engines jets which are multirole.
Again, it does not seem wise to spend money on such expensive multirole jets, when Pakistan always have to be on defending end.


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## Quwa

JimmyJ said:


> The best option for Pakistan regarding 5th Gen should be to join the Chineese stealth project. There would be more understanding between the teams on the requirements.
> 
> One doubt will Pakistan go for a two engined or single engined 5th gen fighter. I mean taking into consideration that cross country flight across Pakistan won' take much time, will Pakistan be preferring a single engined craft..
> 
> For now if PAF is able to acquire J-10 and J-17 it should make the right mix along with the F-16 fleet.


It would depend on the threat perception and PAF requirements in the time the 5th generation fighter would serve. That is decades worth of time, so we should not immediately say it will be a single engine fighter. Take into account the funds PAF would have by the time it inducts a 5th generation fighter, and the threat-level national analysts perceive around that time. Plus the partners PAF decides to develop the fighters will have an affect on its performance parameters...would Saudi Arabia want a single-engine fighter? What if China wants a lighter fighter than J-14, but still twin-engine? What if PAF wants to extend its range and payload capabilities in the future? There are multiple scenarios to take into account...and it would also depend on the preliminary designs CAC & SAC have...what if they based their design philosophy around twin-engine fighters?


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## fatman17

_this is a one year old article written by a western analyst. note the heading given to this article._

*China builds a superpower fighter*

By David Lague 
Published: February 8, 2007

BEIJING: For more than two decades, China has labored to build its first state-of-the-art jet fighter as part of the country's drive to become a leading military power.
In December, it appeared to have closed in on that ambition when it revealed, in an unusual blaze of publicity, that its new fighter, the J-10, had entered service in the air force.

Footage of the new aircraft firing missiles and refueling in flight was shown on state-controlled television, and Chinese defense magazines have published lengthy reports with photographs of the single-engine fighter.

Although specific details about the J-10's performance and specifications remain highly classified, some Western and Chinese military experts say the successful development of this advanced, multirole aircraft could be the catalyst for China to become a leading force in military aviation.

They say that Chinese engineers, with help from Israel and Russia, had refined a design aimed at matching advanced aircraft such as the Lockheed Martin F-16, the frontline U.S. Air Force fighter that has also been sold to more than 20 countries.

"A generation of engineers was put through their major production experience on that aircraft," said Rick Fisher, an expert on the Chinese military and vice president of the International Strategy and Assessment Center, a research institute based in Alexandria, Virginia.

"It has enabled China to create a cadre of experts that will be building ever more advanced aircraft over the next 50 years."

Along with China's successful test of an anti-satellite missile on Jan. 11, the new fighter is further evidence that double-digit increases in defense spending over much of the last 15 years are being converted into sharply increased firepower for the People's Liberation Army.

The introduction of modern aircraft, missiles, submarines and warships over the past decade, along with the increased professionalism of its service personnel, means that China is rapidly gaining the military muscle to match its growing economic clout.
And, according to Chinese and foreign military analysts, its domestic defense industries are steadily mastering key technologies needed to reduce the military's heavy dependence on Russian weapons.

The fanfare for the J-10 was overshadowed outside China by the international outcry over the missile strike that destroyed a defunct weather satellite.

In the aftermath of the missile test, Beijing attempted to allay fears that its military buildup poses a threat to its neighbors or other major powers.

"We do not conceal our intention to build a strong and modern national defense," the deputy chief of general staff of the People's Liberation Army, Lieutenant General Zhang Qinsheng, said in an interview last Friday that was published on the front page of the official China Daily newspaper. "But," he continued, "we also tell the world candidly that the Chinese defense policy is always defensive in nature."

Despite these assurances, new weapons such as the J-10 are likely to contribute to growing unease, particularly in Asia, about China's long-term ambitions.

The threat from China's mounting air power is most keenly felt in Taiwan. Beijing regards the self-governing island as a renegade province and refuses to rule out the use of force if Taiwan makes any move toward formal independence.

Military experts say the deployment of the J-10 in big numbers will further erode the advantage in military technology that Taiwan's air force has enjoyed over its mainland rival.

On Jan. 23, Major General Wang Cheng-hsiao of Taiwan said that China had so far put about 60 J-10s into service and that these, in combination with China's advanced Russian-designed fighters, would give the mainland "supremacy over Taiwan in the air."
Lin Chong-pin, president of a research institute based in Taipei, the Foundation on International and Cross- Strait Studies, said Taiwan's advantage "is getting narrower and narrower."

"At the moment it is just in balance," added Lin, a former deputy defense minister in the governing Democratic Progressive Party. "If Taiwan doesn't do anything, it will tip in favor of the PLA air force."

To counter the threat, Taiwan wants to buy more F-16 fighters from the United States, but most analysts believe it is unlikely that the Bush administration will agree to this request while the island's legislature continues to block funding for an earlier arms order.
China plans to overhaul its air force as part of a larger effort to modernize its military, according to the defense White Paper that the Chinese government published in December. The document said China would concentrate on developing new fighters while reducing the overall number of combat aircraft.

"The air force aims at speeding up its transition from territorial air defense to both offensive and defensive operations and increasing its capabilities in the areas of strike, air and missile defense, early warning and reconnaissance and strategic projects," it said.

Although the official Chinese media described the J-10 as a "breakthrough" for Chinese military aviation, these reports also suggested that the plane was inferior to U.S. fighters like the F-16.

*The Pentagon noted in May in its annual study on Chinese military power reports that the J-10 would be similar in weight and performance to two advanced European fighters, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Dassault Rafale.*

*Fisher, of the International Strategy and Assessment Center, says that of the fighters in service around the world, only the American F-22 Raptor, jointly produced by Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Pratt & Whitney for the U.S. Air Force, would clearly outmatch the J-10.*

"The J-10 is a significant military capability," he said. "It's a highly maneuverable fighter."
It is unclear how many J-10's its maker, China Aviation Industry Corporation I, the country's most important aircraft manufacturer, plans to deliver to the air force.
Small numbers of single-seat and two-seat versions of the new fighter are already operational and some experts believe up to 300 could soon be produced to supplement the high-performance, Russian-designed Sukhoi Su-27 and Su-30MK aircraft already in service with the Chinese Air Force.

*There has been some speculation that the production run could be expanded if the J-10, which is expected to be much cheaper than an F-16, can win export orders from countries unable to pay for expensive Western aircraft.*

Prices of fighters vary sharply depending on capability but Chile is paying $60 million each for 10 F-16's it has on order from the United States. Fisher estimates a J-10 could sell for $25 million to $40 million.

The U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency forecasts that up to 1,200 of these aircraft could eventually be built, according to the Pentagon report on the Chinese military.

The publicity surrounding the new aircraft  including interviews with the leading designers  appeared to be aimed at fostering a sense of national pride in the achievements of the domestic defense industry.

For most of the period when the J-10 was under development, the Western arms embargo imposed after the 1989 Tiananmen crackdown meant that China was denied access to American and European aviation technology.

However, while acknowledging the technical advances China has made over that period, most experts believe the J-10 has relied heavily on technology transferred from Israel's aborted Lavi fighter project.

Prototypes of the Lavi, which was similar in capability to the F-16, had performed well in tests but Israel canceled the project in the late 1980s after the United States withdrew financial support.

Elements of its design are evident in the size and shape of the new Chinese fighter.
Fisher and other experts suggest that Israel also supplied the so-called fly- by-wire computer software that controls the aircraft in flight.

And technical difficulties that have long dogged Chinese efforts to build high-performance military jet engines forced the manufacturer to import Russian turbofan engines to power the J-10.

Locally produced engines could soon be available for the J-10 and other Chinese military aircraft, according to some analysts.

Lin, of the Foundation on International and Cross-Strait Studies in Taiwan, and some other military experts believe this combination of borrowed and adapted technology could detract from the J-10's operational performance, at least in the short term.
"This is a potpourri of parts from different countries," Lin said. "Naturally, there will be some limits to its capability. I suspect there is still room for improvement."


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

It is an old habbit of the americans of exagerrating the performance of the russian and chinese equipment. One reason is to get more funding from congress for defence projects---second is to keep their pilots on their toes and get them prepared for the worst case scenarios, third is to keep the enemy in a comfort zone so that they believe that their product is indeed deadly and extremely competitive with the american euipment.

Comparison of the j 10 with the Eurofighter and Rafael is not correct. Both the later fighter are flying for a while specially the rafael and the info that has come out shows Rafael to be an extremely potent machine. About the j 10, everything is still a part of the rumour mill. It may come out to be a great plane, but it may not be in the same league as the rafael for now---things will change in the years to come.


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## ahussains

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is an old habbit of the americans of exagerrating the performance of the russian and chinese equipment. One reason is to get more funding from congress for defence projects---second is to keep their pilots on their toes and get them prepared for the worst case scenarios, third is to keep the enemy in a comfort zone so that they believe that their product is indeed deadly and extremely competitive with the american euipment.
> 
> Comparison of the j 10 with the Eurofighter and Rafael is not correct. Both the later fighter are flying for a while specially the rafael and the info that has come out shows Rafael to be an extremely potent machine. About the j 10, everything is still a part of the rumour mill. It may come out to be a great plane, but it may not be in the same league as the rafael for now---things will change in the years to come.



SO it means that the J-10 is not that much capable as we suppose it ?


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## IceCold

ahussains said:


> SO it means that the J-10 is not that much capable as we suppose it ?



We dont suppose anything. We know that J-10 is a capable jet and with the passage of time it will only get better but at this stage, it would be unfair to compare the J-10 with Rafale and EF yet alone the F-22.


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## mxiong

IceCold said:


> We dont suppose anything. We know that J-10 is a capable jet and with the passage of time it will only get better but at this stage, it would be unfair to compare the J-10 with Rafale and EF yet alone the F-22.



Actually the just-roll-out J-10B is said to be comparable as Rafale in terms of avionics.


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## MastanKhan

Ahussain,

I am just trying to share the american media campaign, how they try to manipulate and exagerrate the performance of the russians and chinese equipment for their own benefits. 

The reasoning behind it is to create ' respect and fear ' for the enemy and his machine. The reason for 'respect' is to be prepared for the unexpected and not to let your guards down---the 'fear'is for other reasons---it is stated that if you want to conquer the mountain top, you got to prepare for the mountain slope, you got to fear what the mountain slope will throw at you to fail and lose your life---the fear will make you prepare and train hard and you will be ready for all the obstacles that you will come across---the fear of loss will make you work harder at your job.

Now coming back to the J 10---it is a very potent platform---on a scale of 1---10 where you place a rafael and a eurofighter at 10, the j 10 would be around 8.5. Are they in the same league---absolutely---then how do you differentiate their performances---by open mindset pilot training, quick thinking form the seat of your pants, being prepared and anticipating the unexpected, knowing the limits of your machine but more so knowing the maximus of the opponents machine in combat, electronic equipment package and weaponery, mission planning and training---training---training and quick thinking and quick reaction time under actual threat scenario and remembering your training and what you were taught to do when you hear the actual missile lock and missile launch warning on your threat radar screen.

A better trained and thinking pilot will make up for the minimal gap in technology---.


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## asaad-ul-islam

at it's current state J-10 is not that far behind the EF-2000, if you disregard the usage of composites. Keep in mind, the J-10 is based of Israeli LAVI fighter or it would be better to say Israeli technology.

It's highly maneuverable(JF-17 is also) and is on the path to becoming a more matured fighter. PAF pilots will have a lot of fun on this baby, believe me.

there is no reason to think that chinese avionics are behind western avionics, rather chinese technology is based on western designs. Keep in mind, they have western sources that they've tapped into. It's just that the PAF does not like how the Chinese radars function; tracking of targets, look down, etc.

as for quality of chinese products, i think it's sheer arrogance how westerners disregard chinese technology. sure, other nations have had problems with their products, but it really comes down to training. The PAF, for example, was able to shoot down supersonic Mig-21's with its subsonic F-6.


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## Keysersoze

asaad-ul-islam said:


> at it's current state J-10 is not that far behind the EF-2000, if you disregard the usage of composites. Keep in mind, the J-10 is based of Israeli LAVI fighter or it would be better to say Israeli technology.
> 
> It's highly maneuverable(JF-17 is also) and is on the path to becoming a more matured fighter. PAF pilots will have a lot of fun on this baby, believe me.
> 
> there is no reason to think that chinese avionics are behind western avionics, rather chinese technology is based on western designs. Keep in mind, they have western sources that they've tapped into. It's just that the PAF does not like how the Chinese radars function; tracking of targets, look down, etc.
> 
> as for quality of chinese products, i think it's sheer arrogance how westerners disregard chinese technology. sure, other nations have had problems with their products, but it really comes down to training. The PAF, for example, was able to shoot down supersonic Mig-21's with its subsonic F-6.



You see this is the problem I have with some posters. And their tendency to stick their head in the sand.

If a country is lagging behind in it's designs then it is BEHIND! China is catching up but still does not spend a fraction of what western companies/governments spend on R&D. Noticed how the PA and PAF is sticking a lot of WESTERN equipment into their planes and tanks? Hell the Russians haven't even got their 5th gen aircraft up yet and the Chinese are still buying from them.

Training is great but if it was the be all and end all of the situation then the PAF would still be flying bi-planes and relying upon skill.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## IceCold

mxiong said:


> Actually the just-roll-out J-10B is said to be comparable as Rafale in terms of avionics.



Nothing is more pleasing to hear then this, however i would still ask you to back your claim with some authentic source.

Regards

IceCold


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## mxiong

IceCold said:


> Nothing is more pleasing to hear then this, however i would still ask you to back your claim with some authentic source.
> 
> Regards
> 
> IceCold



I'd love to offer a news link or something, but that's not how you get latest Chinese military progress. Take the declassification of J-10 for example, the official news came some 3 years after the fighter went into small-batch production. So mostly you go to Chinese military forum and chat with diff. ppl, and the credibility of the rumors is judged by the poster's reputation and connection. I got this J-10B's info from a very authoritative figure online regarding Chinese politico-military news, and his ID is &#24403;&#38138;. So I just take his words, and they often turn out to be true, unfortunately the official conformation usually comes after a long time.


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## Logic note

Sukhoi piracy: Russia threatens to sue China-Europe-World-The Times of India



> MOSCOW: Russia has threatened to sue China for copying its Sukhoi Su-27SK fighters and its pirate production
> for export to Pakistan and other Third World countries at much cheaper prices, a leading Russian daily reported
> on Tuesday.
> 
> "Russia has officially notified China that the production of J11 (fighters), a copy of Russian Su-27SK, violates inter-governmental agreements. Moscow has vowed to launch legal procedures for the protection of its intellectual property," Nezavisimaya Gazeta said.
> 
> Under the 1996 agreement, China had the right to assemble 200 Su-27SK fighters under the local brand J11. However, after receiving 95 kits and 180 AL31F engines, Beijing in November 2004 notified Moscow that it no more needs Russian kits for the assembly of Su-27 fighters, saying that combat capabilities of the fighter were very limited and further action would be taken after analysis of production experience by Chinese experts, the paper said.
> 
> "It seems the analysis was successful, as in the beginning of 2007, China unveiled its 'development' &#8212; J11B fighter, suspiciously reminding of Su-27," the daily reported.
> 
> Now, Moscow seems to have completely stopped the deliveries of engines. The onboard Zhuk radar is one of the problem modules for China as from the very beginning it was supplied with limited combat capabilities, the report said.
> 
> "What irks Moscow most is that the 1996 agreement did not allow the re-export of J11 to third countries, but now Beijing is busy in the search for the markets of this fighter.
> 
> First in the queue is Pakistan," it said, adding China plans to build 5,000 J11B fighters. Given their cheap price, J11B fighters may wipe out not only Su-27, but also MiG-29 and US F-16 from the Third World markets.


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## IceCold

Logic note said:


> Sukhoi piracy: Russia threatens to sue China-Europe-World-The Times of India



Ohh please give up on anti chinese campaign for god sake. This isnt even the thread for an article about SU-27.So quit your trolling dude. 
This article is BS, why because first of all Pakistan was never interested in twin engine jets and that includes the J-11b. Pakistan has always been interested in the J-10 and not the J-11.
J-11 was a licence version of the Su-27 but J-11b falls into an altogether different class. It heavily incooperates domestice parts and the new domestic engine has also been aproved for the twin engine J-11B. 
So imo it would be an insult to call it a russian jet, coz its not.


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## lexislichan

we Chinese now is developping F-13 and F-14 in two different aircraft plants in Chendu and Shengyang.i believe that maybe after 2 years the experience flight will come out.coz of the serious situation that China confronts is too cruel and hot. we must devote ourselves to the development of our country. the fourth generation flight is our dream in upcoming 10 years.


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## mxiong

lexislichan said:


> we Chinese now is developping F-13 and F-14 in two different aircraft plants in Chendu and Shengyang.i believe that maybe after 2 years the experience flight will come out.coz of the serious situation that China confronts is too cruel and hot. we must devote ourselves to the development of our country. the fourth generation flight is our dream in upcoming 10 years.



You mean 5th Gen. under Russia/US classification right? I think Chengdu will win the design proposal, but both will produce the plane together, cuz stealth fighter is a huge project and all resources of Chinese aviation industry must be utilized.


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## gpit

IceCold said:


> Ohh please give up on anti chinese campaign for god sake. This isnt even the thread for an article about SU-27.So quit your trolling dude.
> This article is BS, why because first of all Pakistan was never interested in twin engine jets and that includes the J-11b. Pakistan has always been interested in the J-10 and not the J-11.
> J-11 was a licence version of the Su-27 but J-11b falls into an altogether different class. It heavily incooperates domestice parts and the new domestic engine has also been aproved for the twin engine J-11B.
> So imo it would be an insult to call it a russian jet, coz its not.



IC, it is his tradition and culture.


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## Ahassan

pakistan AF should go for 66 j-10's rather than increasing number of f-16's.....india is looking up to morre 196+ su-30s...

http://www.defence.pk/20080310398/world-watch/india-to-upgrade-its-mig-29-aircrafts.html

please read.....


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## araz

I think once PAF is satisfied with the development level of J10, it will buy it in tranches as its finances allow. I dont think PAF will confine itself to just 40. 
Araz


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## xishan786

Well Sir 

Despite all odds J 10 is the best option that could be vailed by Pakistan. 2 J 10s are better then 4 F22 let alone F-16s, atleast for Pakistan !!!!

Hey dont shout let me explain, most of you guys must have kept a close eye on Afghan War, didnt u know that stringers fired by taliban at American planes failed to hit them not because of superior plane but because they were chipped.

How can be we sure about american equipments that they would perform in war as they perform in peace. You just cant secure any data stored in any computer windows , linux Pix, ASA or whatever **** you may do for security

*Rule is simple whatever has software in it Try that you write it yourself no libraries no templeates, yes you have to re-invent the wheel atleast in this case otherwise dont complain that things were not working as they were suppose to be, be it fly-by-wire, HUD, BVR, Sidewinder or any programmeable thing.*

I am in the field of computers from last many years and system programming is my faviourte 'time pass' and I can guarentee untill and unless you have coded something from scratch you just cant be sure about its contents, fly-by-wire or what ever americans offer us how can be ve sure that when metal is actually hot it wont decive us? 

Why are we forgetting radar jamming in 65 and 71 by our beloved US and subsequestnt burning of records of inquiry held by PAF not to mention craetes of ammo recoverd by Pak army from indians marked "Gifted by US".

and if I am not wrong it is understood fact that Pakistani Top Brass admits that one day "bari anni hai" 

Come on guys chinese are some one we can trust on, though ultimate soloution is only and only self reliance we should be thankfull china is providing us with the lot of TOT.


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## gpit

xishan786 said:


> Well Sir
> 
> Despite all odds J 10 is the best option that could be vailed by Pakistan. 2 J 10s are better then 4 F22 let alone F-16s, atleast for Pakistan !!!!
> 
> Hey dont shout let me explain, most of you guys must have kept a close eye on Afghan War, didnt u know that stringers fired by taliban at American planes failed to hit them not because of superior plane but because they were chipped.
> 
> How can be we sure about american equipments that they would perform in war as they perform in peace. You just cant secure any data stored in any computer windows , linux Pix, ASA or whatever **** you may do for security
> 
> *Rule is simple whatever has software in it Try that you write it yourself no libraries no templeates, yes you have to re-invent the wheel atleast in this case otherwise dont complain that things were not working as they were suppose to be, be it fly-by-wire, HUD, BVR, Sidewinder or any programmeable thing.*
> 
> I am in the field of computers from last many years and system programming is my faviourte 'time pass' and I can guarentee untill and unless you have coded something from scratch you just cant be sure about its contents, fly-by-wire or what ever americans offer us how can be ve sure that when metal is actually hot it wont decive us?
> 
> Why are we forgetting radar jamming in 65 and 71 by our beloved US and subsequestnt burning of records of inquiry held by PAF not to mention craetes of ammo recoverd by Pak army from indians marked "Gifted by US".
> 
> and if I am not wrong it is understood fact that Pakistani Top Brass admits that one day "bari anni hai"
> 
> Come on guys chinese are some one we can trust on, though ultimate soloution is only and only self reliance we should be thankfull china is providing us with the lot of TOT.



Make very much sense.


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## MastanKhan

Hi Xishan,

Sir, there is misinformation and lack of knowledge about missiles in your post. Stinger was a heat seeker---once it locked on, regardless whose ar-se it painted, it was on its way. It doesnot mean that it works 100&#37; of the time. Heat seekers are fire and forget missiles.

Now if it was a radar guided missile, it is a different story. The stinger can have an intial problem of locking onto the target and that is not because of the chip but rather of not getting a proper heat signature. Even though the missile may be launched, if there is no lock or a loss of heat lock, or flares or some other anomaly, it will go astray. For that very reason, president Clinton's regime tried very hard to buy back all the remaining stingers, because they have a very high kill ratio.

The rest of your article about equipment is completely bad bad information. Seems to me that you are clueless how the defence industry operates in the world.

Let me get you off your mis-information wagon---the defence industry in based upon trust---yessir trust---do you think that they have a department where they have people installing defective parts in equipment going to pakistan and another department where they installing quality parts---which would at the time of failure bring about shame to their manufacturers. Do you really have any beliefe that once these machines fail in actual combat, that there would be any other nations left to buy the equipment from that company.

Kid, you have no clue about pride of performance and pride in your workmanship kind of mentality---you need to learn and understand that when you manufacture and design a machine, it has your name, sweat, blood, your integrity, your honesty, your quality of workmanship, the future of the epmloyees working at that plant and the future of their families being attached to it---to top it all off---it has the name of the company or the name of the owner of the company stamped on it.

I donot know of any defence equipment producing company that pakistan deals would fall in the category of short-changing its end user.

Why don't you print some info and background the information burning issue of PAF and we will see where it leads.

At the end of your post you come up with that dreaded word TOT---do you really know what it means---do you really know where pakistan can put all that TOT and make any use of it.


----------



## BATMAN

mxiong said:


> I'd love to offer a news link or something, but that's not how you get latest Chinese military progress. Take the declassification of J-10 for example, the official news came some 3 years after the fighter went into small-batch production. So mostly you go to Chinese military forum and chat with diff. ppl, and the credibility of the rumors is judged by the poster's reputation and connection. I got this *J-10B's *info from a very authoritative figure online regarding Chinese politico-military news, and his ID is &#24403;&#38138;. So I just take his words, and they often turn out to be true, unfortunately the official conformation usually comes after a long time.



Mxiong, 
Isn't J-10B is a designation for 2 seater J-10?
New version of J-10 may have a different designation!
And please, don't forget to post any pictures youcome across for the new J-10


----------



## xishan786

MastanKhan said:


> Hi Xishan,
> 
> Sir, there is misinformation and lack of knowledge about missiles in your post. Stinger was a heat seeker---once it locked on, regardless whose ar-se it painted, it was on its way. It doesnot mean that it works 100% of the time. Heat seekers are fire and forget missiles.
> 
> Now if it was a radar guided missile, it is a different story. The stinger can have an intial problem of locking onto the target and that is not because of the chip but rather of not getting a proper heat signature. Even though the missile may be launched, if there is no lock or a loss of heat lock, or flares or some other anomaly, it will go astray. For that very reason, president Clinton's regime tried very hard to buy back all the remaining stingers, because they have a very high kill ratio.
> 
> Well Khan Sahib try to use your brain a bit, Obviously not like yahaya khan but like AQ khan, Ever heared about RFIDs and its uses?? agreed stringers are heat seakers but Mr khan have you ever opned a stringer and see what is inside it ? how can can you be so sure that when u fire a stringer on an american plane its RFID tage gets activated as it approaches plane and it goes out of spin? Its so stange why dont people use their brains. Atleast I would never like a missile provided by me to some one hits my own plane. What do u say people?? Its just a simple example other weapon system are much more complex and have much more space for incorporation of neferious objects.
> 
> 
> The rest of your article about equipment is completely bad bad information. Seems to me that you are clueless how the defence industry operates in the world.
> 
> 
> mr actually its that you simply dont know that you dont know
> 
> Let me get you off your mis-information wagon---the defence industry in based upon trust---yessir trust---do you think that they have a department where they have people installing defective parts in equipment going to pakistan and another department where they installing quality parts---which would at the time of failure bring about shame to their manufacturers. Do you really have any beliefe that once these machines fail in actual combat, that there would be any other nations left to buy the equipment from that company.
> 
> Do u know how much budget CIA have and what is their mendate??. do u really think their only work is to Tape monika lewensky?? comeon man grow up I just wish that your mindset is not shared by our top brass Dont you know that every item pakistan gets is checked several times, People correct me if I am wrong when we got F-16s they were feather balnced and their electrical wiring related to delivery of nukes had been removed, Maybe something to do with craftmanship huh?? and navy people would attest to my verdict as they had quite a lot which had been tonned down.
> 
> Khan Saab in this world nobody would u give a weapon to destroy themselve its a basics of military startegy to plan the future and always have a exit strategy. GROw up do u really think that all their firms are workinga nd just supplying equipment all over world and pentagon is sitting and just getting fat on their asses??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kid, you have no clue about pride of performance and pride in your workmanship kind of mentality---you need to learn and understand that when you manufacture and design a machine, it has your name, sweat, blood, your integrity, your honesty, your quality of workmanship, the future of the epmloyees working at that plant and the future of their families being attached to it---to top it all off---it has the name of the company or the name of the owner of the company stamped on it.
> 
> 
> What do u think about Iraq?? why was there so somooth roll over? Mr khan modern weapons of today are not are not sabers or spears (your craftmanship), you are living in primitive times plz come out of it, these weapons of toady are very complex mechanism and most have ability to perform on their masters or for you in simpler wordsfor you they have their brains and they sense its only that you dont know. If in future there is a conflict between us and pak then this would be the first time americans would be facing formidable oppostion and belive me they have plans for it i dont remmebr who said it but there is a saying which Americans belive firmly is that if you find an formidable oppostion then you donthave planned your war .
> 
> I donot know of any defence equipment producing company that pakistan deals would fall in the category of short-changing its end user
> 
> Fools Paradise
> 
> Why don't you print some info and background the information burning issue of PAF and we will see where it leads.
> 
> It is said it was an accident(Zia sahib C130 accicdent seems familiar aint it?? ) that caused burning of investigation and records regarding signal jamming and I think it was sargodha where it happened. Let me check if i can get you some proof. An airforce person told me.
> 
> 
> At the end of your post you come up with that dreaded word TOT---do you really know what it means---do you really know where pakistan can put all that TOT and make any use of it.



TOT means transfer of technolgy. yeah sure i know and had worked in defence industry for some time so i know a lot about it which you claim that you know what problem you have with it?? this is the only sensible way of acquiring wepons from other nations.


----------



## MastanKhan

Xishan,

Removing the wiring if it happened was a part of the original deal---it is not defective workmanship---the agency doesnot interfere in the manufactruing of defence equipment in any defence related industry---as a matter of fact the agency has no right to interfere in the internal national production of defence equipment and having operatives inside who are intentionally misplacing wires from planes or putting defective CPU's with special codes--.

As a matter of fact, anyone from the agency maynot even get close to the design and manufacturing of the equipment---this defence industry is a private industry and it safegurads its secrets and manufacturing process more than any thing imagined. Second thing is the the federal beureau would be all over it like flies over an open can of honey----it becomes a JURISDICTION issue. The agency has no jurisdiction in the internal affairs or anything on the u s mainland soil---it is the federal beureau issues and they fight tooth and nail to protect their turf.

It is alright to strut and brag a little bit and we will let you---but it is better to have a better understanding of manufacturing processes related to defence industry and not to beligerantly argue.

Now don't let anyone get confused with a cheap quality product---a cheap quality product was cheap from the begining---we already knew its defects and shortcomings. 

I am just giving you the basics as to how the industry works---now you are putting a spin on what I stated about the equipment---it was about the equipment in the 65 war and there after about the radars and etc---yes they have certain safeguards in certain weapons that they sell us and we know that because they have already told that to us---but what you were talking in your earlier post is different than is what you are responding to.

For some reason the equipment you are arguing about didnot have what you are stating, because they wanted to pay upwards of 100k to 200k per launcher even with the dead batteries---ten years after the batteries expired their normal use.

Where does iraq or the Zia's C130 come intot eh picture---or are you trying to wing anything that you can--- it is time to take a deep breath and start afresh allover one more time.

Don't worry about my brains---have concerns about your presence here---you are seemingly already on the exit list.


----------



## Muradk

Hi Xishan, looks like you want to prove that all the senior members are fools and you know every thing. if you are trying to make a point make it without disrespecting a member. You dont know any thing about Zia Crash if you have read the book Bear Trap. read it as a novel there are a very few people who are alive who know what happend to that C130 and the ones who are alive are not in pakistan.
Lets talk about F-16s the first 4 F-16 delivered to us they were flown by the US to Dahran , When Shahid and khattak were doing pre-flight they found out there was no radar in it, they got of the plane and call AHQ , Zia told them to come back dont touch the F-16s. The US had to pick them up from Dharan and then deliver us what we wanted. Our PAF engg are so smart that they reconfigured our mirages and f-16s to deliver NB.
*Again just an advice you Command respect not demand respect. On this forum we have people from all origins and we respect all of them*.


----------



## skybolt




----------



## xishan786

MastanKhan said:


> Xishan,
> 
> Removing the wiring if it happened was a part of the original deal---it is not defective workmanship---the agency doesnot interfere in the manufactruing of defence equipment in any defence related industry---as a matter of fact the agency has no right to interfere in the internal national production of defence equipment and having operatives inside who are intentionally misplacing wires from planes or putting defective CPU's with special codes--.
> proves my point J10 and chines products are much better for us at least they would do what they are suppose to doAs a matter of fact, anyone from the agency maynot even get close to the design and manufacturing of the equipment---this defence industry is a private industry and it safegurads its secrets and manufacturing process more than any thing imagined. Second thing is the the federal beureau would be all over it like flies over an open can of honey----it becomes a JURISDICTION issue. The agency has no jurisdiction in the internal affairs or anything on the u s mainland soil---it is the federal beureau issues and they fight tooth and nail to protect their turf.
> 
> Wow in your imagination, things are not that much rosy as you think,first of all CIA does not use to opertae inside mainland yes you were right atleast on papers. Its done by NSA. Ok but Khan sahiball of CIA operations are concieved governed funnded and often armed from the main land. when its about american interst there is no such things as jurisdiction.
> 
> It is alright to strut and brag a little bit and we will let you---but it is better to have a better understanding of manufacturing processes related to defence industry and not to beligerantly argue.
> 
> Now don't let anyone get confused with a cheap quality product---a cheap quality product was cheap from the begining---we already knew its defects and shortcomings.
> 
> I am just giving you the basics as to how the industry works---now you are putting a spin on what I stated about the equipment---it was about the equipment in the 65 war and there after about the radars and etc---yes they have certain safeguards in certain weapons that they sell us and we know that because they have already told that to us---but what you were talking in your earlier post is different than is what you are responding to.
> 
> For some reason the equipment you are arguing about didnot have what you are stating, because they wanted to pay upwards of 100k to 200k per launcher even with the dead batteries---ten years after the batteries expired their normal use.
> 
> Where does iraq or the Zia's C130 come intot eh picture---or are you trying to wing anything that you can--- it is time to take a deep breath and start afresh allover one more time.
> 
> Don't worry about my brains---have concerns about your presence here---you are seemingly already on the exit list.




Khan sahib dont worry about my exit nobody is going to stay anywhere always, but i see it otherwise, My point was simple and staright you just simply cant trust us given their past record and future that I could see. 

I mean, with all due respects, conflict between USA and Pak is destined to happen its just only matter of time so all i wanted that we should rely more on people and companies who would be on our side in such scenario.

I have already mentioned that i had worked in Pak defence industry so i know perfectly well how they work. C130((it was for accidents) and iraq factor fits in to the situation as these two factors were predominnatly US based and in both IRaq wars iraqis failed to respond, Iraq was not that much a bannana as it appeared in the war, I am simply suugessting that we should be carefull.

and by the way who told u american comapnies are free and they keep their secrets aka make their own decisions, khan sahib its not like this, american socitty is every closely monitored by US govenment, and they are not very open to their normal industry leave alone defence industry. Port of duabi case do u remeber that ??

Ok leave it I think this thread is more about J10 and not about American dirty work if u wish to prove your point that americans are reliable technolgy partners lets start another thread.

pardon me I was a bit rude-- Khans often get irritated by citation of brains


----------



## araz

> pardon me I was a bit rude-- Khans often get irritated by citation of brains



Xishan.
I am not Mastan Khan, but I still find your posts arrogant and disgustingly naive. You have hardly been here a few days and managed to get people like Muradk and myself annoyed with your "holier than thou " approach. You have type casted people and your last remark about Pashtun Brothers is not only in poor taste but reeks of bias and racism. I have never done this on any of the forums before, but I am reporting you to the mods. With an atttitude like yours you do not deserve to be on this forum.
MODS Please TAKE NOTICE.
Araz


----------



## Shoaib_Sham

xishan786 said:


> Khan sahib dont worry about my exit nobody is going to stay anywhere always, but i see it otherwise, My point was simple and staright you just simply cant trust us given their past record and future that I could see.
> 
> I mean, with all due respects, conflict between USA and Pak is destined to happen its just only matter of time so all i wanted that we should rely more on people and companies who would be on our side in such scenario.
> 
> I have already mentioned that i had worked in Pak defence industry so i know perfectly well how they work. C130((it was for accidents) and iraq factor fits in to the situation as these two factors were predominnatly US based and in both IRaq wars iraqis failed to respond, Iraq was not that much a bannana as it appeared in the war, I am simply suugessting that we should be carefull.
> 
> and by the way who told u american comapnies are free and they keep their secrets aka make their own decisions, khan sahib its not like this, american socitty is every closely monitored by US govenment, and they are not very open to their normal industry leave alone defence industry. Port of duabi case do u remeber that ??
> 
> Ok leave it I think this thread is more about J10 and not about American dirty work if u wish to prove your point that americans are reliable technolgy partners lets start another thread.
> 
> pardon me I was a bit rude-- Khans often get irritated by citation of brains



You are in dire need of spell checker .. aint u?


----------



## Neo

araz said:


> Xishan.
> I am not Mastan Khan, but I still find your posts arrogant and disgustingly naive. You have hardly been here a few days and managed to get people like Muradk and myself annoyed with your "holier than thou " approach. You have type casted people and your last remark about Pashtun Brothers is not only in poor taste but reeks of bias and racism. I have never done this on any of the forums before, but I am reporting you to the mods. With an atttitude like yours you do not deserve to be on this forum.
> MODS Please TAKE NOTICE.
> Araz



*Mr Xishan786 will take a 10 days break and learn to show respect to fellow members.

Neo*


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## blain2

xishan786 said:


> pardon me I was a bit rude-- Khans often get irritated by citation of brains



Very much out of place...lets keep the cancer of provincialism out of these discussions please.


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## BATMAN

skybolt said:


>



And what is this advance J-10?


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## Owais

BATMAN said:


> And what is this advance J-10?



no!
its proposed model of naval version of J-10


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## fatman17

Jane's Login

Chinese J-10 'benefited from the Lavi project'

Robert Hewson Jane's Air-Launched Weapons Editor-Russia

Key Points
Russian sources have confirmed to Jane's that the J-10, which they worked on, is based on Israel's Lavi 

China "had already had a lot of help from Israel", said one source


Russian aerospace engineers have confirmed to Jane's that China's Chengdu J-10 fighter aircraft benefited from significant, direct input from Israel's Lavi programme - including access to the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) Lavi aircraft itself. 

In a number of interviews Jane's has talked at length with several engineers, designers and technical specialists - some of whom have been working with their Chinese counterparts for decades and have had first-hand experience on Chinese military projects. They have provided detailed accounts of the assistance given to various Chinese manufacturers and their military aircraft projects. This has included extensive design and performance modelling, wind-tunnel testing and advanced aerodynamic design input. 

Senior Russian engineers who spoke to Jane's recalled their many visits to Chengdu, and elsewhere in China, some of which began in the 1980s. Jane's was told how Chengdu officials of the highest level stated how they had one of the IAI Lavi prototypes in their facilities. Describing his conversations with Chengdu concerning possession of a Lavi aircraft, one Jane's source commented: "I did not consider that to be a revelation ... doesn't everyone know that already?" 

It is not possible to independently verify the Russian comments. The charge of Lavi technology transfer has been made before, but this time the claims come from individuals with sustained personal experience of the programme. Both Chinese and Israeli officials have long refuted any purported links between the J-10 and the Lavi. 

*Neither is it clear whether a Lavi aircraft was permanently transferred to China or if one was given to Chengdu for a specific period of time. When asked, the same Russian engineer commented that he had never heard anyone in Chengdu suggest that China had a acquired a Pakistan Air Force Lockheed Martin F-16 for study to inform J-10 development - a claim that has been made elsewhere in the past.* 

Officials from Israel Aerospace Industries, previously Israel Aircraft Industries, declined to comment on the Russian claims.

Jane's has heard how Russian engineers met Israeli counterparts at Chinese facilities and often saw documentation and technical drawings marked in Hebrew. When asked about the J-10, one Russian department head remarked: "What Chengdu aircraft? There is no Chengdu aircraft. Everything they have came from somebody else." 

There is no doubt that some J-10 design and development work was done in Russia. For example, in 2000 - when there were still flaws in the basic aircraft - Chengdu engineers took a number of different J-10 models to Russia for extensive wind-tunnel testing. A key Russian skill was the ability to conduct detailed spin and high-angle-of-attack testing in a horizontal wind tunnel. 

One Russian specialist involved in those and other tests said: "They had already had a lot of help from Israel and what they wanted most of all was to validate their own people and their testing methods rather than the design. Chengdu already has access to a huge aerodynamics facility with underground wind tunnels." 

Those Russian specialists who have worked in China are often scathing about China's real level of design capabilities and have become more so as China relies less and less on foreign industrial input. They remain impressed, however, by the scale of resources and funding that has been poured into China's programmes. 

"The advance in facilities at Chengdu has been astonishing over the last 20 years. They now have a huge site with completely new test and development facilities, laboratories and an entirely new production line - quite apart from what was there to begin with. Chengdu is the only Chinese manufacturer to maintain its own design bureau. At Shenyang they have only a small office that can make small changes. Chengdu on the other hand is sitting in China's Silicon Valley. The nearby town of Mianyang is a major centre for China's electronics industry and also has a big aerodynamics research facility of its own [the China Air Dynamics Research and Development Centre]," Jane's was told. 

*However, the potential impact of the Sichuan earthquake of 11 May on the aviation industry centred around Chengdu could be severe. There were particular fears for the research facility at Mianyang, one of the towns close to the epicentre of the quake reported to have been completely destroyed. With the disaster striking at the heart of China's aviation hub, it was hard not to see the J-10 project - and China's aviation industry as a whole - suffering considerable setbacks. *


----------



## ahussains

What are the chances of J-10 in PAF


----------



## Owais

ahussains said:


> What are the chances of J-10 in PAF



we have already decided to buy 36 of them by the end of 2009 but its avionics are yet to be decided.


----------



## Mubashar_ali

Chinese J-10 'benefited from the Lavi project' 
By Robert Hewson 
19 May 2008


Russian aerospace engineers have confirmed to Jane's that China's Chengdu J-10 fighter aircraft benefited from significant, direct input from Israel's Lavi programme - including access to the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) Lavi aircraft itself. 

In a number of interviews Jane's has talked at length with several engineers, designers and technical specialists - some of whom have been working with their Chinese counterparts for decades and have had first-hand experience on Chinese military projects. They have provided detailed accounts of the assistance given to various Chinese manufacturers and their military aircraft projects. This has included extensive design and performance modelling, wind-tunnel testing and advanced aerodynamic design input. 

Senior Russian engineers who spoke to Jane's recalled their many visits to Chengdu, and elsewhere in China, some of which began in the 1980s. Jane's was told how Chengdu officials of the highest level stated how they had one of the IAI Lavi prototypes in their facilities. Describing his conversations with Chengdu concerning possession of a Lavi aircraft, one Jane's source commented: "I did not consider that to be a revelation ... doesn't everyone know that already?" 

It is not possible to independently verify the Russian comments. The charge of Lavi technology transfer has been made before, but this time the claims come from individuals with sustained personal experience of the programme. Both Chinese and Israeli officials have long refuted any purported links between the J-10 and the Lavi. 

Image: China's J-10 (Internet) 

234 of 785 words 
© 2008 Jane's Information Group


----------



## fatman17

duplicate thread - already posted in J-10/F-10 thread.


----------



## Always Neutral

Asia Times

*Israel's role in China's new warplane 
By David Isenberg*

The recent unveiling (sort of) of China's first domestically designed (sort of) fighter jet was the culmination of a long saga of international military-hardware wheeling and dealing that has seen US-designed or -funded high-tech weaponry fall into the hands of potential military rivals

The program began in the late 1980s and is thought to be based on an Israeli design. It contains Israeli and Russian avionics, and is powered by Russian engines.


Chinese engineers developed the J-10 from a single F-16 provided by Pakistan, and with assistance from Israeli engineers associated with Israel's US-financed Lavi fighter program, which was canceled in 1987, according to the Federation of American Scientists website. The Lavi was based on the US F-16 and built with US$1.3 billion in aid from Washington. 


Yet China's acquisition of the Russian Su-27, after China had attempted for years to develop the J-10 aircraft with equivalent technology to perform similar functions, is seen by some experts as a sign that China lacks confidence in its domestic industrial capabilities. 



*Just posted some interesting comments on the so called Chinese effort put into the J 10.

Regards*


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

The Chinese did put a lot of effort into the J-10.

No one is calling it the Lavi are they? While it may have benefited from the "input from Israels Lavi program", it is nonetheless not considered a Lavi or F-16 clone, and China needed the requisite scientific, technological and manufacturing base to incorporate and develop any "input" it received.

The Saudis have a lot of money as well, do you think that if the US handed over all the designs for the F-16 the Saudis could even come close to developing and manufacturing more a handful of components used in the F-16, let alone design a new fighter based of some of the design parameters of the F-16?

Whether one "imports" scientists (the US nuclear program) or technology to get a heads up, I see little difference. They key is whether the nations doing the "importing" have the capability to absorb and further develop the knowledge being imported. And the Chinese have shown they do, as have the Pakistanis in their nuclear and missile program.


----------



## araz

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> The Chinese did put a lot of effort into the J-10.
> 
> No one is calling it the Lavi are they? While it may have benefited from the "input from Israels Lavi program", it is nonetheless not considered a Lavi or F-16 clone, and China needed the requisite scientific, technological and manufacturing base to incorporate and develop any "input" it received.
> 
> The Saudis have a lot of money as well, do you think that if the US handed over all the designs for the F-16 the Saudis could even come close to developing and manufacturing more a handful of components used in the F-16, let alone design a new fighter based of some of the design parameters of the F-16?
> 
> Whether one "imports" scientists (the US nuclear program) or technology to get a heads up, I see little difference. They key is whether the nations doing the "importing" have the capability to absorb and further develop the knowledge being imported. And the Chinese have shown they do, as have the Pakistanis in their nuclear and missile program.



I fully agree with this post. What one has to understand is that this news has done the rounds before as well. It was never confirmed, and refuted by both parties,ie Chinese and Israelis.
The truth is there may have been a lot of input in to the basic design by the Israelis but things have moved on and the J10 that we see today is different from the Lavi in many respects. It is an attribute to the hard work, research and determination of the chinese which has made J10 the plane it is today. 
The story of collaboration is there for many projects but it should not take the credit away from the chinese who have brought the job to fruition.
waSalam
Araz


----------



## fatman17

Owais said:


> we have already decided to buy 36 of them by the end of 2009 but its avionics are yet to be decided.



and the powerplant (?)


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

Regardless of what one may believe about the chinese ingenuity and experties, they were clueless as to how to make a world class fighter aircraft. They had no technique and ability and didnot know from where to start---at the head or at the toe---no insult intended---. Indeed the israelis helped them alot with their lavi design. After the israelis were gone---the paf engineers helped them in a better finished product in other production ventures.

The reader must understand that it is next to impossible to come up with a potent design and style as that of a J 10 without any prior experience of producing a similiar fighter.

Agno---you are correct---without an advanced understanding, an advanced design capability and manufacturing facilities, any design is worthless unless it can be deciphered at first---the problem one faces is that at every step of this aircraft's design and manufacture, there is a MOUNT EVEREST to conquer for the first time each time till you get down to manufacturing the engine---that is when the abilities of the men are seperated from the boys.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

By: Feng 
Military Analyst 

Recently, a lot of news have been coming out revealing the performance of J-10. We know that an upgraded J-10 is being worked out and might even have a prototype out next month and fly before the end of the year. One of the more revealing interviews came out recently through an interview with someone involved pretty deeply in J-10's avionics development. You can see the part one of the interview here and the part two of the interview here. It's in Chinese and really slow, so you might have problem viewing it, here is a recap of what I heard regarding to J-10:
- he said that avionics are very import, but are also very expensive
- J-10 cost 200 million Yuan each, export to Pakistan would probably be 300 million each
- out of that, 100 million is spent on the avionics, takes 10 years to develop
- one is DCFS (Digital Flight Control Systems), which allows pilot to control the plane with displayed information
- talks about the FBW computer, which does 500 K calculation per second (that's not even 1 MHz!, what?)
- other is mission computer, you just plug in the mission and the fighter will tell you what to do
- then talks about INS (inertial navigational system), you can go from Beijing to Shenzhen with this and only be off by 500 m
- and the other is CADC (central air data computer), it is used to detect the temperature, dew point, wind direction/speed and stuff like that.
- other is SMS (store management system), this is the system controlling the launching of missiles and bombs (it has to calculate how high you are launching certain weapons and your speed to achieve optimize results)
- radar - can detect up to 150 km (here is interesting part, he mentions that F-22 can only do 170 km, but that is vs 1 m^2 target, I doubt J-10 is facing that size to get to 150 km, maybe 3 m^2 or 5 M^2?)
- CNI - communication/navigation/identification, plane has wide band, narrow band (different types of waves that it's sending and receiving), didn't really talk about datalink or IFF, but I'm guessing that's part of this
- EMS - (electronic counter measure system?) - not much said
talks about a fighter jet is like a networked computer system with many sub parts, each has a computer that can do half to 1 million calculations per second. Also, they take up very little space.
China Air and Naval Power: Search results for pakistan


----------



## Myth_buster_1

sh1h1bsLqIY[/media] - Pakistan Airforce acquiring 5th generation advanced fighters


----------



## Myth_buster_1

What makes FC-20 a 5th gen aircraft? 
Will it have TVC ASEA or European avionics? 
I dont see any Chinese radar capable to be in a league of 5th gen radar, so if PAF does intend to equip FC-20 with european radar most likely French "RBE2" and anything less then this will not make FC-20 anywhere close to 5th or 4.5th gen MRCA.


----------



## asaad-ul-islam

23march, the info you posted above on the J-10 might as well be worthless. china does not reveal anything about its military ambitions. that's why you'll see a lot of criticism and concerns.

In the late 1990s, the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence estimated that the J-10 could be as maneuverable as the U.S. F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. this is no laughing matter, if it's good enough for the PAF, then it certainly is one of THE BEST aircraft.

as for the ACM classifying the FC-20 as a fifth generation fighter, maybe he thinks the F-22 and F-35 are sixth generation? Maybe he doesn't know that there is a separate classification of 4.5th generation fighters?


----------



## mxiong

J-10B w/ AESA fears no one but Raptor and Lightning II.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

asaad-ul-islam said:


> 23march, the info you posted above on the J-10 might as well be worthless. china does not reveal anything about its military ambitions. that's why you'll see a lot of criticism and concerns.
> 
> *In the late 1990s, the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence estimated that the J-10 could be as maneuverable as the U.S. F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. this is no laughing matter, if it's good enough for the PAF, then it certainly is one of THE BEST aircraft.*
> 
> as for the ACM classifying the FC-20 as a fifth generation fighter, maybe he thinks the F-22 and F-35 are sixth generation? Maybe he doesn't know that there is a separate classification of 4.5th generation fighters?



I am aware of that fact. just maneuverability does not make a fighter world class and their is no dough that F-16 is more maneuverable then F-18 and J-10 with canards and TVC will leave teens in dust! F-18 is merely concentrated with electronic warfare then maneuverability. 
But i am pretty much sure that ACM is aware of the fact 4 4.5 5th gen aircraft classification and their is no 6th gen. maybe he meant 4.5 gen?


----------



## indiapakistanfriendship

> In the late 1990s, the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence estimated that the J-10 could be as maneuverable as the U.S. F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.



Did you say super hornet, mate super hornet is not particularly known for manuverability


----------



## Quwa

asaad-ul-islam said:


> 23march, the info you posted above on the J-10 might as well be worthless. china does not reveal anything about its military ambitions. that's why you'll see a lot of criticism and concerns.
> 
> In the late 1990s, the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence estimated that the J-10 could be as maneuverable as the U.S. F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. this is no laughing matter, if it's good enough for the PAF, then it certainly is one of THE BEST aircraft.
> 
> as for the ACM classifying the FC-20 as a fifth generation fighter, maybe he thinks the F-22 and F-35 are sixth generation? Maybe he doesn't know that there is a separate classification of 4.5th generation fighters?


The media screwed up, ACM didn't say 5th generation at all.


----------



## BATMAN

Analysis: China's fighter planes -- Part 1

Published: May 29, 2008 at 4:39 PM

By ANDREI CHANG
HONG KONG, May 29 (UPI) -- Front-line combat units of China's People's Liberation Army air force will have at least 112 J-10 fighter jets by the end of the year, an analysis of current deployments and in-progress production reveals.

*There are multiple indications that the 2nd Regiment of the No. 1 Division of the People's Liberation Army air force has received a full complement of the domestic-made, next-generation fighter jets run by the 4th J-10 -- J-10A -- Fighter Regiment. *
Each such regiment normally is equipped with 28 fighters; 28 link-structured aircraft hangars have been constructed at Chifeng Air Base, where the regiment is based. The exterior structure of these hangars is very similar to those at the Changxing Air Base run by the No. 3 Division, and the runway at Chifeng seems to have undergone renovation. 

The PLA air force currently has three other J-10 regiments. They are the 132nd Regiment under the No. 44 Division, based at Luliang in southern Yunnan province, the 8th Regiment under No. 3 Division, based at Changxing in the east coast province of Zhejiang, and the 5th Regiment under the No. 2 Division, based at Guilin in the southeast province of Guangxi, which borders Vietnam. 

*An educated guess puts the number of J-10A fighter jets that China has already manufactured at 120*. Within this year, China is expected to receive a new batch of 50 Russian-made AL31FN engines, bringing the total number of these imported engines to 304.

China has been importing engines at a ratio of two for every one completed fighter jet, presumably for backup. This means the PLA air force already has enough engines to provide aircraft for a 5th J-10 Fighter Regiment. It can be concluded that the fighters currently under manufacture are for this fifth regiment, due to be completed in 2009. 

The J-10 fighter deployment within the PLA air force basically has followed the same pattern as that of the earlier Russian Sukhoi Su-27 fighters and China's domestic version, the J-11. At least one J-10 regiment is first established in the air force division of each major military region, so that these air force units can become familiar with the operation of third-generation fighters. This practice is also intended to achieve balanced development of each military region. 

The regiments that have received J-10 fighters all have had experience using J-11 fighters -- for instance, the No. 3, No. 2 and No. 1 Divisions. The only exception is the No. 44 Division, which was the first one to receive J-10 fighters. 

This may be because the division's 132nd Regiment, stationed at Luliang, is far from the Taiwan Strait and therefore it would have been easier to conceal the aircrafts' deployment there. Moreover, Luliang is geographically close to Vietnam and India. India is quite familiar with Russian Sukhoi fighters, and thus it makes sense to deploy J-10A fighters in this region first. 

It is significant that the No. 1 Division in north China is among the first bases to receive a complement of J-10 fighters. 

Next: Strengthening military power in Shandong

--

(Andrei Chang is editor in chief of Kanwa Defense Review Monthly, registered in Toronto.)


----------



## mxiong

It seems we don't have to worry about J-10 couldn't carry enough MRAAMs...


----------



## fatman17

mxiong said:


> It seems we don't have to worry about J-10 couldn't carry enough MRAAMs...



where is this J-10 parked - downtown beijing!


----------



## BATMAN




----------



## BATMAN

J-10 in above pictue does not have those supporting bars above air intake.
Was it an earlier version or a version with different engine?
BTW, what does 1068 stand for? it can't be the serial number!


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## Muradk

fatman17 said:


> where is this J-10 parked - downtown beijing!



The missiles attached are fakes not original, You never do repairs or fix the plane in the middle of down town or even on the base with such explosives attached , but like you said know we know they can carry AM's.


----------



## Keysersoze

The ones based in the city may even be a large model.


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## melb4aust

Well here is an interview ACM regarding J-10(FC-20)...........Plus according to the report and his interview, he himself has doubts about the latest F-16 deal, though he said its unlikely that its gonna happen, as we have alternatives, ready as a back-up, i wonder what those alternatives will be? *French or chinese*???

YouTube - Pakistan Airforce acquiring 5th generation advanced fighters


----------



## Neo

BATMAN said:


> J-10 in above pictue does not have those supporting bars above air intake.
> Was it an earlier version or a version with different engine?



Seems like an earlier picture with huge air intake (15-20&#37; overcapacity). Later versions have much flatter intake and various supporting bars.


----------



## jian-10

the plane on the scaffolding is supposedly a used prototype that has been gutted and prepared to be placed on display infront of the Avic building (orange).
The one in the hangar is a model in an aircraft theme park.


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## Alex_2008

I hope PAF may get J-10 as soon as possible. China and Pakistan are borthers.


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## Owais

Alex_2008 said:


> I hope PAF may get J-10 as soon as possible. China and Pakistan are borthers.



PAF is looking for a western AESA Radar for FC-20 with possibly a TVC Engine.


----------



## araz

Owais said:


> PAF is looking for a western AESA Radar for FC-20 with possibly a TVC Engine.



Owais.
J10 is already quite maneouverable, So what would PAF achieve by adding TVc to it. You must remember the 50 G capability of latest generation 0f WVR missiies vs the 9 G limit that the pilot has. TVC will also add to the workload of maintenance, which may not be something PAF wants.I would certainly agree with AESA radar,but TVC seems a waste of time for J10.What do you think?
WaSalam
Araz


----------



## Myth_buster_1

araz said:


> Owais.
> J10 is already quite maneouverable, So what would PAF achieve by adding TVc to it. You must remember the 50 G capability of latest generation 0f WVR missiies vs the 9 G limit that the pilot has. TVC will also add to the workload of maintenance, which may not be something PAF wants.I would certainly agree with AESA radar,but TVC seems a waste of time for J10.What do you think?
> WaSalam
> Araz



ok fine according to you TVC may not be that important for evading missiles but still some what effective and also it may be very important during dogfights to avoid bad guys at your 6. dont you think?


----------



## araz

23march said:


> ok fine according to you TVC may not be that important for evading missiles but still some what effective and also it may be very important during dogfights to avoid bad guys at your 6. dont you think?



The honest answer my friend is i dont know. I have to say that I know of no *single engined *plane currently in production(especially with Canards) with TVC.The americans did toy with the idea and gave it up. The problem I have is what good it would do for the plane knowing 5th Gen missiles and for what cost. You are adding cost without a significant benefit.
Perhaps Muradk or Xman can talk on this issue and elaborate PAFs view point.
WaSalam
Araz.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

araz said:


> The honest answer my friend is i dont know. I have to say that I know of no *single engined *plane currently in production(especially with Canards) with TVC.The americans did toy with the idea and gave it up. The problem I have is what good it would do for the plane knowing 5th Gen missiles and for what cost. You are adding cost without a significant benefit.
> Perhaps Muradk or Xman can talk on this issue and elaborate PAFs view point.
> WaSalam
> Araz.



XZQDwRKHCSQ[/media] - F-16 MATV Extended Video (Rare Footage)

please notice that in this video the MATV F-16 a "single engine" fighter is not far behind in terms of maneuverability when comparing it with any Russian TVC fighters like Su-35 or Mig-35.. this F-16 was a testbed for US super maneuverability fighter "F-22"..
TVC may not be that important for evading 5th gen missile but still is a very important factor in dogfights..


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## araz

Iwould add that F16 MATV did not go into production. While there is a role of TVC in twin engined jets Like SU series, F22 etc, I would again repeat that no single engined fighter has gone down this route. Incidentally I have also seen f15s with TVC. Also i do not understand why you would use TVC and canards simultaneously , when you have both of them for increased maneouverability.
waSalam
Araz


----------



## Myth_buster_1

araz said:


> Iwould add that F16 MATV did not go into production. While there is a role of TVC in twin engined jets Like SU series, F22 etc, I would again repeat that no single engined fighter has gone down this route. Incidentally I have also seen f15s with TVC. Also i do not understand why you would use TVC and canards simultaneously , when you have both of them for increased maneouverability.
> waSalam
> Araz



Well then is it not good that J-10 will be the first fully operational single engine fighter with TVC and canards?? the american F-16 MATV demonstrated that single engine TVC fighters are just as maneuverable as any TVC twin engine fighters..


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## araz

23march said:


> Well then is it not good that J-10 will be the first fully operational single engine fighter with TVC and canards?? the american F-16 MATV demonstrated that single engine TVC fighters are just as maneuverable as any TVC twin engine fighters..



23march.
It is not a case of being good or bad. Yes I would love to have all the goodies on the J10. The question is also not one of the realms of possibilities but of what benefit at what cost?Mind you the cost factor should also include the actual cost of the modification and its mainteneance cost.I would again reiterate that The americans inspite of having the technology since the 90s have not put it on a single engined plane.The honest answer my friend is my knowledge has limits which do not allow me to give you the right answer. Personally I find the additional costs unnecessary.I will rest my case here .
Regards
Araz


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## IceCold

araz said:


> 23march.
> It is not a case of being good or bad. Yes I would love to have all the goodies on the J10. The question is also not one of the realms of possibilities but of what benefit at what cost?Mind you the cost factor should also include the actual cost of the modification and its mainteneance cost.I would again reiterate that The americans inspite of having the technology since the 90s have not put it on a single engined plane.The honest answer my friend is my knowledge has limits which do not allow me to give you the right answer. Personally I find the additional costs unnecessary.I will rest my case here .
> Regards
> Araz



Maybe its because single engine jets are already highly maneuverable and agile because of their light weight they don,t need TVC as compared to twin engine jets which are heavy and to bring it on par with a light weight fighter jet in terms of maneuverability, dog fight and missile avoidance, TVC is added.


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## araz

Icecold.
Iam aware of the logic of Putting TVC on twin engined jets. The ongoing debate with 23rd march was regarding the logic of putting TVC on a single engined plane, especially one with canards(J10). I frankly did not see the logic whereas 23rd march insisted it was for avoidance of missiles and useful in dogfights. 
waSalam
araz


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## IceCold

araz said:


> Icecold.
> Iam aware of the logic of Putting TVC on twin engined jets. The ongoing debate with 23rd march was regarding the logic of putting TVC on a single engined plane, especially one with canards(J10). I frankly did not see the logic whereas 23rd march insisted it was for avoidance of missiles and useful in dogfights.
> waSalam
> araz



Well the intended purpose of my post was that i too agree that there is no need to add TVC on a single engine jet. TVC only adds to maneuverability and as single engine jets such as the F-16 and JF-17( don't know about the J-10) are already highly maneuverable there is no point in adding a thrust vector control. It will only add fuel to the cost and nothing more.


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## araz

IceCold said:


> Well the intended purpose of my post was that i too agree that there is no need to add TVC on a single engine jet. TVC only adds to maneuverability and as single engine jets such as the F-16 and JF-17( don't know about the J-10) are already highly maneuverable there is no point in adding a thrust vector control. It will only add fuel to the cost and nothing more.



Ice cold 
Thank you for your post. I thought it was in congruity with my post ,but remained unclear, so i elaborated . I am glad we are in agreement that this venture is a waste of time.
WaSalam
Araz


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## Owais

but I have a question that are single jets as maneuverable as TVC Jets??? I mean what will happen if an MKI get into close combat with our F-16 or JF-17??


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## IceCold

Owais said:


> but I have a question that are single jets as maneuverable as TVC Jets??? I mean what will happen if an MKI get into close combat with our F-16 or JF-17??



TVC is added into the twin engine jets to increase their maneuverability. Think if the MKI does not have TVC, how agile would it be against the F-16 in a dog fight. So imo both jets will be equal interms of capability in close combat and in the end it will be the pilot skill that would lead anyone of them to a decisive victory.


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## Muradk

Owais said:


> but I have a question that are single jets as maneuverable as TVC Jets??? I mean what will happen if an MKI get into close combat with our F-16 or JF-17??



If a MKI gets into a close fight with the above planes it will the man behind the machine not the machine.
Remember some thing TVC, Changing the direction to the nose does not alter its flight path,this has been demonstrated in MIG29 as it pitches its nose end-over-end while its existing momentum continues to propel it along the original trajectory.


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## shehbazi2001

IceCold said:


> TVC is added into the twin engine jets to increase their maneuverability. Think if the MKI does not have TVC, how agile would it be against the F-16 in a dog fight. So imo both jets will be equal interms of capability in close combat and in the end it will be the pilot skill that would lead anyone of them to a decisive victory.




Based on what I know till now.......single or dual engine has got nothing or less to do with maneuverability. F-104 Starfighter had single engine but had very bad maneuverability. Likely Mirage-III/V are also single engine but are not very maneuverable platforms. IDF/AF used special tactics with Mirage, all related to energy maneuvering against the agile Migs. They used the speed and energy of Mirage to overcome the opponents.

But now the fighters are all-in-one, speed+energy+maneuverability.

What I know is that you have to make the aircraft unstable and then control it through computers (fly by wire) to make it maneuverable. But there are some other factors too like leading edge slats, area of control surfaces, positioning of control surfaces. Either elevators are pushed very back or canards are installed. If you see F-22, the elevators are fixed further back then even the nozzles.


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## IceCold

shehbazi2001 said:


> Based on what I know till now.......single or dual engine has got nothing or less to do with maneuverability. F-104 Starfighter had single engine but had very bad maneuverability. Likely Mirage-III/V are also single engine but are not very maneuverable platforms. IDF/AF used special tactics with Mirage, all related to energy maneuvering against the agile Migs. They used the speed and energy of Mirage to overcome the opponents.
> 
> But now the fighters are all-in-one, speed+energy+maneuverability.
> 
> What I know is that you have to make the aircraft unstable and then control it through computers (fly by wire) to make it maneuverable. But there are some other factors too like leading edge slats, area of control surfaces, positioning of control surfaces. Either elevators are pushed very back or canards are installed. If you see F-22, the elevators are fixed further back then even the nozzles.



The purpose of mentioning single and dual engine was to highlight the importance of weight. I agree with the examples that you quoted about the F-104 but then again i too quoted examples. Take F-16 into account and compare it with a heavy MKI. Which fighter should be more agile? I think the answer is pretty much clear and that is exactly why the indian MKI's are far maneuverable as compared to the original flanker series. 
Rest i agree with your post.


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## HAIDER

Janes.com


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## araz

Haider 
This article is old and has been posted on various fora.The main problem at the moment is finding the resource for all these goodies.
Araz


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## HAIDER

I think only france right now, plus Pakistan is waiting for the delivery of F16c/d. After analyzing their performance, Pakistan will come up with final modification of J10. PAF measuring stick is F16. Selling a plane to PAF is not easy task, they match so many standard of air war. Specially when opponent as state of the art planes.


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## Super Falcon

can any indian jet can we compare with j 10


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## mxiong

Super Falcon said:


> can any indian jet can we compare with j 10



If India chose the F/A-18E/F as their MRCA winner, the Super Hornets would definitely outmatch any fighter currently in PLAAF service, but soon-to-come J-11C and J-10B both equipped with AESA and improved turbofan engines and avionics should resume the balance.


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## Super Falcon

is pakistan airfoce sifned a deal to buy j 10 and which varients pak is going for and how much tey are gonna buy thisss

and does this exists that the j 10 varients will be builed as u mantioned

and does indians signed the deal for hornet


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## nitesh

Super Falcon said:


> is pakistan airfoce sifned a deal to buy j 10 and which varients pak is going for and how much tey are gonna buy thisss
> 
> and does this exists that the j 10 varients will be builed as u mantioned
> 
> and does indians signed the deal for hornet



Well no deal is signed about MRCA as such but I think this is a good read regarding different platforms:

Can We Save the RAF? Or Does Unilateral Disarmament Have To Be So Expensive?


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## fatman17

Super Falcon said:


> is pakistan airfoce sifned a deal to buy j 10 and which varients pak is going for and how much tey are gonna buy thisss
> 
> and does this exists that the j 10 varients will be builed as u mantioned
> 
> and does indians signed the deal for hornet



my dear super falcon - kindly dont mind but your posts dont make sense!


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## BATMAN

mxiong said:


> If India chose the F/A-18E/F as their MRCA winner, the Super Hornets would definitely outmatch any fighter currently in PLAAF service, but soon-to-come J-11C and J-10B both equipped with AESA and improved turbofan engines and avionics should resume the balance.



Hi, Mxiong, Any new pictures of asskicking J10B?


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## mxiong

BATMAN said:


> Hi, Mxiong, Any new pictures of asskicking J10B?



I am afraid not. The one I posted before was a fan-drawn Computer Graphic, because the real one is still under development at Chengdu in secrecy. But rumors on Chinese forums say J-10B undertook its maiden flight around late 2007 or early 2008, so I guess we just have to wait and see.


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## Super Falcon

what type of a ompovement it would be and can we compare j 10 with eurofighter or rafales catagory what its special role is air to ground or air to air


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## IceCold

Aneeq Rashid said:


> I like to know when pakistan will able to get J-10?



As soon as it meets the PAF requirements.


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## BATMAN

mxiong said:


> I am afraid not. The one I posted before was a fan-drawn Computer Graphic, because the real one is still under development at Chengdu in secrecy. But rumors on Chinese forums say J-10B undertook its maiden flight around late 2007 or early 2008, so I guess we just have to wait and see.



Thanks Mxiong, I have also said it before that the pictures you posted didn't seemed to me a CG. I think the frame modifications shown are sensible and not some thing out of fiction. Normally CG&#8217;s are conceptual designs of futuristic technology. What we se on J10B is not fictional science though it is very advance concept.
DSI are already implemented on JF-17 (FC-10) and it makes sense to implement those on J-10 specially when the technical know how exists with China aviation industry.
As you said let&#8217;s wait and see.
I found this one floating on web:

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## araz

BATMAN said:


> Thanks Mxiong, I have also said it before that the pictures you posted didn't seemed to me a CG. I think the frame modifications shown are sensible and not some thing out of fiction. Normally CGs are conceptual designs of futuristic technology. What we se on J10B is not fictional science though it is very advance concept.
> DSI are already implemented on JF-17 (FC-10) and it makes sense to implement those on J-10 specially when the technical know how exists with China aviation industry.
> As you said lets wait and see.
> I found this one floating on web:



what a beauty. It solves a lot of the problems that have been raised earlier. If we have reached this stage and the design is a reality, then I daresay we are not too far from inducting this bird.
Regards
Araz


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## IceCold

araz said:


> what a beauty. It solves a lot of the problems that have been raised earlier. If we have reached this stage and the design is a reality, then I daresay we are not too far from inducting this bird.
> Regards
> Araz



If i am not mistaken, i think induction of J-10 has much to do with the avionics and not the over all design. I maybe wrong but the initial design of the J-10 is fine, all it needs now for PAF point of view as stated by the ACM that we need an avionics package of our own on it and not what the chinese are offering.

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## ejaz007

I think we shall be getting them in around 2010.


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## Owais

araz said:


> what a beauty. It solves a lot of the problems that have been raised earlier. If we have reached this stage and the design is a reality, then I daresay we are not too far from inducting this bird.
> Regards
> Araz



I think its an edited Image J10 needs 4-5 years to get mature like it counterparts. also avionics package is yet to be decided and I don't see any country providing AESA (as powerful as APG 80) for our FC-20.

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## araz

IceCold said:


> If i am not mistaken, i think induction of J-10 has much to do with the avionics and not the over all design. I maybe wrong but the initial design of the J-10 is fine, all it needs now for PAF point of view as stated by the ACM that we need an avionics package of our own on it and not what the chinese are offering.



Ice cold.
Thank you for your response. You are absolutely correct and I shoul have elaborated. My response was in continuation with an earlier post that I had made. My concern with J10( very personal one I would say)is that hte 4 hardpoints on its belly are for dumb bombs only and bery small ones at that. There has been talk regarding shifting the rear wheels on to the wings to increase the space on the belly for the four hardpoints, which gives the J10 more versatility,although i understsand that it is not desireable for every plane to have all its hardpoints utilized by aams(S&M).
My wish list was for the J10
1_ more versatility with regards to hardpoints.
2- Integrated FLIR and IRST.
3_CFT
4-AESA radar
5-more use of composited.

When I saw this picture I saw all my whims fulfilled(at least the structural ones!!) and therefore made my post. 
Owais. Thank you for your post .Asexplained above my post was in relation to the reasons cited above.
WaSalam
Araz


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## Myth_buster_1

keypublishing.co.uk


> "In Aviation Weeks's "Show News" for yesterday published pictures of an early J-10 being set up as a gate guardian for AVIC.
> 
> According to the article, the PLAAF display team Bai-Yi will be re-equipped with J-10s and make a flypast of the Olympic stadium during the opening ceremonies."


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## Myth_buster_1

View attachment e6b6b058f5d9473bf546e9b9a0eafc38.jpg


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## Myth_buster_1

J-10 Flypass 26 july..


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## Myth_buster_1

so is this the official FC-20??
View attachment 14b7ec898e18fd384476cfe98aae2d37.jpg

View attachment a79ddcf714cc3cd3243de66d77395e0b.jpg

View attachment f5cfb0f5efa7117e748325d505fdac47.jpg

View attachment cb98b3920e41c47089662cb5f13ed60e.jpg

View attachment 054f39d6e279454e4598bc9f3b357f6f.jpg

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## JK!

Its a good look dorsal spine maybe containing extra avionics and conformal fuel tanks.

What are the two white pods?


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## Myth_buster_1

JK! said:


> Its a good look dorsal spine maybe containing extra avionics and conformal fuel tanks.
> 
> What are the two white pods?



i think those are targeting pods...


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## JK!

23march said:


> i think those are targeting pods...



Yeah my guess as well.

I wonder what sort of league they are in and what current pods like Lantirn or sniper they are comparable too.


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## Neo

JK! said:


> What are the two white pods?



Targetting pods indicating a FGA role and night attack capability.


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## fatman17

^^^very impressive but i think the specifications of the F-20 have not been finalised.


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## Super Falcon

slight change in design


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## Owais

Looks Nice but official design doesn't show DSI as well as some stealth features.


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## araz

Ithink there has been daebate on Sino defence.com on at least the first Photograph. The gentleman in question is apparently Mao Tze Tung's grand son. This photo is a CGP and probably a fake. I have not seen the other ones. Knowing Chinese tendencies to keep things under wrap, on a type that is not likely to be in production till 2011, I would say this is fan boy CGP. It looks nice none the less and may well be close to the production type when it comes out .
Araz


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## IceCold

M.KHURRAM.KHAN [747 ARMY];177377 said:


> FJ 17 IS A bless of allah for pakistan.its a brilliant fighter.it power boosted PAF.we need to upgrade our are old fighters.THANKS



What is FJ-17?? Or do you mean JF-17. Dude this thread about J-10 and not JF-17.


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## ejaz007

Came across this thought should share it with you all:

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## Myth_buster_1

su-47 said:


> Damn! that is some really funny photoshopping. some naughty photoshopper at work.
> 
> but in real life it might be the other way around, especially if the F-16 is a block 52



In real life their is no dogy style only dog fights... and J-10 has upper hand..


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## JK!

23march I'd change the tone this is a serious defence forum and like Araz I think that photos bad taste.

I'd also have to agree with Su 47 I'd give it to the F16....for now at least.


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## ejaz007

F-16 has proven itself in combat while J-10 is still learning to fly. So F-16 has an upper hand in comparison.


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## IceCold

For now i'll consider the photo the other way round. J-10 still needs time to become a mature platform, F-16 already has.


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## muse

The Photo is in poor taste, perhaps it belongs in some other forum


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## nitesh

sir, leave it can be taken as a joke.


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## Owais

su-47 said:


> Damn! that is some really funny photoshopping. some naughty photoshopper at work.
> 
> but in real life it might be the other way around, especially if the F-16 is a block 52



lolz J-10 still got upper hand in dog fights and when FC20 comes up, that pic might become reality!


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## Keysersoze

Closed for Moderation.


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## Keysersoze

Ok forum re-opened.......Please realise that this site is accessible to most ages and therefore inappropriate images will be censured.


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## araz

Keysersoze said:


> Ok forum re-opened.......Please realise that this site is accessible to most ages and therefore inappropriate images will be censured.



Thank you Keysersoze.
Idont think there is place for such photos on a serious and professional forum. I am glad that people have seen where i am coming form.
WaSalam
Araz


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## mss_TheRock

Hey guys, im back after a LONG time at PDF

Last time i cheked the parliment apporved some J 10s any news oof them?
Iv also heard of Pakistan bieng offered j 11s


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## fatman17

mss_TheRock said:


> Hey guys, im back after a LONG time at PDF
> 
> Last time i cheked the parliment apporved some J 10s any news oof them?
> Iv also heard of Pakistan bieng offered j 11s



wellcome back! pls check the aviation section for answers to your questions?


----------



## crowreturns

So many guys talk about DSI for J10 including we Chinese.In my opinion,although DSI looks so cool but is not suitable for speed . Coz While over 2.0M ,efficiency will be low with DSI . The Caret what on F-22 is more advisable for J10.


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## Nomi929

any newz about potential radar for PAF J-10.


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## Myth_buster_1

crowreturns said:


> So many guys talk about DSI for J10 including we Chinese.In my opinion,although DSI looks so cool but is not suitable for speed . Coz While over 2.0M ,efficiency will be low with DSI . The Caret what on F-22 is more advisable for J10.



no thats not right.. DSI is designed to be low drag, stealthier, and better air inflow for the engine...


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## Nomi929

As J-10 has greater payload and longer range.

What other benefit does J-10 offer, if PAF inducts them as compared to JF-17.

Coz there will be no Long range radar available to PAF, except Chinese Radars.

France has yet to make its AESA radar!


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## nitesh

Nomi929 said:


> France has yet to make its AESA radar!



Check this info
AESA for the RAFALE

not much of info is out but seems like 2012-2014 time frame they will have operational AESA radar. (may be early also)


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## Nomi929

nitesh said:


> Check this info
> AESA for the RAFALE
> 
> not much of info is out but seems like 2012-2014 time frame they will have operational AESA radar. (may be early also)



Yes i know!

But the point is that, it will not be available for PAF in very near future.

France will not allow radar of its Prmairy Fighter to be fitted on Chinese plane.


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## nitesh

Nomi929 said:


> Yes i know!
> 
> But the point is that, it will not be available for PAF in very near future.
> 
> France will not allow radar of its Prmairy Fighter to be fitted on Chinese plane.



Yeah that is a problem, but unfortunately there seems to be no solution


----------



## Nomi929

nitesh said:


> Yeah that is a problem, but unfortunately there seems to be no solution



So Chinese AESA Radar is the only option left or some decent PESA radar from France .

i think China with the assistance of Russia might bring out some decent AESA for J-10


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## nitesh

Nomi929 said:


> So Chinese AESA Radar is the only option left or some decent PESA radar from France .
> 
> i think China with the assistance of Russia might bring out some decent AESA for J-10



Hey do u have any info about chinese progress on this particular front. Kindly share.


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## Nomi929

nitesh said:


> Hey do u have any info about chinese progress on this particular front. Kindly share.



Electronic Weapons: Chinese Deploy Superior Avionics


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## IceCold

Nomi929 said:


> Electronic Weapons: Chinese Deploy Superior Avionics



This is rubbish. J-10 has no AESA radar till date.


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## Nomi929

IceCold said:


> This is rubbish. J-10 has no AESA radar till date.



Yes.

AESA radar will be fitted on SU-35, so no way china gonna attain this technology before russia.

A Good PESA radar will be ideal for J-10.


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## Neo

Can you please provide more details and a link to support your claim?


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## Munir

IceCold said:


> This is rubbish. J-10 has no AESA radar till date.



I think you need to do some more research. The factries that are busy for quite some time with AESA are known. I have seen and read enough to know that they are busy with fighter sized AESA. As far as I know 2 factories are in final developments... Just for the logic, which kind of radar do you hink is attached to balanced beam AEW&C? Do you think a smaller radar is more or less complex then that? Which problems do you think they will have to overcome? I know some of the answers but since you gave a straight forward answer last time I am looking for depth to see how well you know your field of expertise.

Thanks.


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## Muradk

Munir said:


> I think you need to do some more research. The factries that are busy for quite some time with AESA are known. I have seen and read enough to know that they are busy with fighter sized AESA. As far as I know 2 factories are in final developments... Just for the logic, which kind of radar do you hink is attached to balanced beam AEW&C? Do you think a smaller radar is more or less complex then that? Which problems do you think they will have to overcome? I know some of the answers but since you gave a straight forward answer last time I am looking for depth to see how well you know your field of expertise.
> 
> Thanks.



You are right Munir, If the J-10 had AESA. We would have them in Thunders by now.


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## IceCold

Munir said:


> I think you need to do some more research. The factries that are busy for quite some time with AESA are known. I have seen and read enough to know that they are busy with fighter sized AESA. As far as I know 2 factories are in final developments... Just for the logic, which kind of radar do you hink is attached to balanced beam AEW&C? Do you think a smaller radar is more or less complex then that? Which problems do you think they will have to overcome? I know some of the answers but since you gave a straight forward answer last time I am looking for depth to see how well you know your field of expertise.
> 
> Thanks.



Research regarding what? J-10 has no AESA radar as of now contrary to what is written in the article. The radar of the J-10 is a pulse doppler mechanically slewed planar array one and not an AESA one. Now i am simply unaware of your logic of comparing it with an AWAC. The size of the radar fitted in the AWACS and that off to be fitted in the nose of the J-10, there is one hell of a difference. And by the way if it was so easy to reduce the size of the radar to accomodate into the nost of a fighter jet while keeping the same level of performance, it would have been done years ago. Why do you think that even the EF and rafale did not had an AESA radar? If we go by your theory, they should have had within the first batch as both europe and France are well aware of the AESA radar technology.

To prove my point here is an article from sino defence about the radar of the J-10 which clearly states its not an AESA one. China still has years to go before finally it could come up with a working AESA radar for its J-10 fighter.

J-10 Multirole Fighter Aircraft (Part 2) - SinoDefence.com

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## Munir

I did not say J10 has AESA radar but that two factories are busy making a finished product. Aesa isn't that superduper some some sugest. If they can produce a bigger and more complex ballanced beam then I bet they are not sleeping when it comes to smaler sized fighter radars. Just google AESA and China and you will find enough links to do some research. The logic lies in the fact that one has to think beyond the published papers or posts. If we have to wait till we get a picture then we might skip discussing everything that might become possible in the near future.

No one knows what FC20 exactly is. Yet if you think hard enough and read here and there you might end up knowing more. No one knows about Jxx. Nobody knew about J10 in the past. Yet with one sat pic we could extract a lot more then most posters can imagine. 

Let me put it simple. I am not sure whether a test version of AESA is in the J10. I do know that multiple factories are busy with that. I do not understand where you skipped that info or why you get thanks for just saying something I did not conform. Murad did understand it. And indeed, if J10 will have AESA then it is matter of smaller edition with lower technology (just to keep J10 superior and to secure Chinese assets) will end up in the JF17...

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## IceCold

Munir said:


> I did not say J10 has AESA radar but that two factories are busy making a finished product. Aesa isn't that superduper some some sugest. If they can produce a bigger and more complex ballanced beam then I bet they are not sleeping when it comes to smaler sized fighter radars. Just google AESA and China and you will find enough links to do some research. The logic lies in the fact that one has to think beyond the published papers or posts. If we have to wait till we get a picture then we might skip discussing everything that might become possible in the near future.
> 
> No one knows what FC20 exactly is. Yet if you think hard enough and read here and there you might end up knowing more. No one knows about Jxx. Nobody knew about J10 in the past. Yet with one sat pic we could extract a lot more then most posters can imagine.
> 
> Let me put it simple. I am not sure whether a test version of AESA is in the J10. I do know that multiple factories are busy with that. I do not understand where you skipped that info or why you get thanks for just saying something I did not conform. Murad did understand it. And indeed, if J10 will have AESA then it is matter of smaller edition with lower technology (just to keep J10 superior and to secure Chinese assets) will end up in the JF17...



If you did not say then why did you ask me to do some more research or did i miss something?
Clearly when i called the article rubbish it was because of the fact that J-10 does not have an AESA radar where as the article was quoting it to have one. For now AESA is something super dupper for the rest of the world and that is exactly why we have not seen many jets flying with an AESA radar other then the US. Both Europe and France much much ahead in aviation industry then China have started to build their own AESA radar for the EF and Rafale much latter as compared to their jet development. ALso while i do not doubt that China will be working day and night to develop their own version of an AESA radar, they are still years behind and alot has to be done to catch up. Now i know they have a working AESA radar for their KJ-200 but then again we are not sure about its performance as compared to its western counterparts. Also to reduce its size and enable it to be fitted into the nose of the J-10 is a challenge within. If that was as simple as you just put it into your words, let me assure you that China would have done it along ago.
Also as far as the logic is concerned and thinking beyond published facts and figures, then let me ask you why in the hell should i google for this issue only? World goes by facts and not what you and me think or perhaps where are creativity leads us. Chinese aviation industry still lacks in many important and crutial aspects and that is exactly where Russia comes into the equation but then again Russia herself has only recently developed an AESA radar which is of not the same calliber as the US APG80 is but its a step in the right direction and only when this radar matures up and Chinese could get their hands on one we may see an AESA radar in the new version of the J-10 called the super 10 or perhaps in the J-xx programe other then that its just an empty whistle.


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## fatman17

^^^my dear friends - let cooler heads prevail - thx in advance!


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## Munir

I do not see how someone can conclude that China is not even into AESA... I am not even hot but I do have now opinion about Icecold. Let us skip it.


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## Myth_buster_1

Munir said:


> I do not see how someone can conclude that China is not even into AESA... I am not even hot but I do have now opinion about Icecold. Let us skip it.



Munir i totally understand your point.. at the moment J-10s dont carry AESA which is obvious and their is no dough that China is developing fighter size AESA...


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## Nomi929

23march said:


> Munir i totally understand your point.. at the moment J-10s dont carry AESA which is obvious and their is no dough that China is developing fighter size AESA...



So no need to BUY J-10 yet.


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## IceCold

Munir said:


> I do not see how someone can conclude that China is not even into AESA... I am not even hot but I do have now opinion about Icecold. Let us skip it.



Sorry to say but after reading this, i can only wonder how come you are a think tank when you cant even continue a debate with positive input and that backed with facts rather then personal opinions and emotions. What you are doing is all based all your emotions and not facts and since you have nothing solid to base on, i would therefore rest my case here or until you can prove me other wise.

On a side note i never said China isn't working on an AESA radar, i just said they are far from inducting it into their fighter jet.


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## Munir

IceCold said:


> Sorry to say but after reading this, i can only wonder how come you are a think tank when you cant even continue a debate with positive input and that backed with facts rather then personal opinions and emotions. What you are doing is all based all your emotions and not facts and since you have nothing solid to base on, i would therefore rest my case here or until you can prove me other wise.
> 
> On a side note i never said China isn't working on an AESA radar, i just said they are far from inducting it into their fighter jet.



Sadly your pesonal remarks degrade the forum. If you are not able to understand the logic and developments without seing the reality you miss that extra to become a think tank. I do not have to prove that China is busy with AESA. Just ask Crobato. He can give you the factory numbers and some detail. I am not intrested in personal vendetta or copy paste attitude or personal bashing. But somehow you just want to say the last word, don't you? Love that.


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## Munir

International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Chinas J-10 Jet Fighter: How Much Do We Know?

>>>A Chinese source disclosed in early 2005 that CAC was considering a program to build a "F-35" class fighter. This would likely mean that CAC is considering stealthy, AESA-radar equipped, internal weapon carrying high performance combat aircraft. It is logical that CAC would consider such a "lightweight" fighter project, inasmuch as Shenyang seems to be building "heavy" fighters. Nevertheless, brochures from the 601 Design Institute, usually associated with CAC, appear to indicate they are considering a "heavy" twin-engine 5th generation design that may be in competition with Shenyang&#8217;s longstanding 5th generation fighter program. However, Shenyang&#8217;s revelation of an advanced forward-swept wing but single-engine 5th generation fighter concept at the recent 2006 Zhuhai Airshow, may mean it also is aiming for an &#8220;affordable&#8221; next-generation design.

So they are stil busy with J6 according to you? Or do you think that revealing J10 was jus their last card?


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## Munir

Probably not true but still signs of activity.... More then your word that they do not have.

>>>
China develops advanced avionicsnews	

20 August 2007	

China's new J10A fighter uses a hi-tech active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. The country revealed its range of military AESA radars recently, after years of intense research and development.

AESA systems consist of thousands of tiny radars that make it possible to track many different targets simultaneously. China claims its new J10A radar can track 10 targets at a time and attack four of them simultaneously with long-range missiles.

The J10 is also completely Chinese made, though it looks very similar to the American F-16 and even weighs about the same (19 tonnes). Like the F-16 (and unlike the Russian Su-27), the J10 has only one engine, the new Chinese WS10A, developed after a decade of development. Originally, the J10 used a Russian AL-31FN engine.

The J10 resembles the F-16 because Israel is supposed to have secretly sold China the technology for the Israeli Lavi jet fighter after Israel itself abandoned the Lavi project because it was cheaper to buy F-16s and F-15s from the United States.


The Lavi was meant to be a super F-16, and the Israelis had developed new components for the plane. China has about a dozen J10As in service. The numbers will increase once the WS10A engine is put into production, in a year or two. China has long sought jet engine and AESA technology from the US, and has often been accused of espionage for the purpose.

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## Munir

Let us look at Janes...

>>>China working on 'Super-10' advanced fighter

09 January 2006
China working on 'Super-10' advanced fighter 

By Henry Ivanov JDW Correspondent 
Moscow 

China is developing an advanced version of the Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Corporation (CAC) J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, referred to as the Super-10, with a more powerful engine, thrust-vector control, stronger airframe and passive phased-array radar, according to Russian sources. 

Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG (RSK-MiG) specialists, contracted to provide technical assistance to Chinese design houses, said the enhancement to the J-10 airframe is a logical step, since the fighter was initially intended to have the compact Pratt&Whitney PW1120 engine that powered the Israeli Lavi aircraft, which served as a basis for the J-10. 

However, the imposition of US export restrictions forced the decision to install the 20 per cent heavier Russian AL-31FN engine, which requires a larger intake as it needs 40 per cent more air flow. 

In late 2005 China placed a USD300 million order for a second batch of AL-31FN engines; these are a derivative of the Su-27's AL-31F for single-engine aircraft, with a lower positioning of the gearbox. At first, it was believed the contract was for the same engines as in the first batch of 54 units supplied in 2001-02 and installed into development prototypes and initial production J-10s. However, AL-31FN-maker Moscow Machine Production Plant (MMPP) Salyut in December 2005 revealed the order to be for the AL-31FN M1, which is claimed to be a new AL-31FN production standard. 

The company's general manager, Yuri Eliseyev, said the new engine was purposely developed for what he referred to as the "Chinese Super-10 fighter". Four such engines have been seen assembled at MMPP Salyut's Moscow production site. One of these has been demonstrated undergoing fire testing, during 

You can say where there is smoke there will be some fire... And frankly I rather look at more sources and then say something logical then a personal flame that think tank member should know better... 

[You can find the rest yourself... I bet you know how to handle Google]


----------



## IceCold

Munir said:


> Sadly your pesonal remarks degrade the forum. If you are not able to understand the logic and developments without seing the reality you miss that extra to become a think tank. I do not have to prove that China is busy with AESA. Just ask Crobato. He can give you the factory numbers and some detail. I am not intrested in personal vendetta or copy paste attitude or personal bashing. But somehow you just want to say the last word, don't you? Love that.



ohh please! what did i say that has degraded this forum? It was you who gave the personal remark at the first place about me doing some more reasearch or that you now have an opinion about me and when i asked you on what should i do more research, you backed away since you had no grounds to hold on to at the first place and as for your opinion about me, do you really think i give a damn about it, No i dont. Instead of discussing the issue at hand you are running in circles and hiding behind others. Sorry but if this is what you call extra to become a think tank, i am better off without it. From the beginning till now all you have come up is with your personal crap and nothing related to the issue. Being a think tank your attitude sucks.


----------



## IceCold

Munir said:


> International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Chinas J-10 Jet Fighter: How Much Do We Know?
> 
> >>>A Chinese source disclosed in early 2005 that CAC was considering a program to build a "F-35" class fighter. This would likely mean that CAC is considering stealthy, AESA-radar equipped, internal weapon carrying high performance combat aircraft. It is logical that CAC would consider such a "lightweight" fighter project, inasmuch as Shenyang seems to be building "heavy" fighters. Nevertheless, brochures from the 601 Design Institute, usually associated with CAC, appear to indicate they are considering a "heavy" twin-engine 5th generation design that may be in competition with Shenyangs longstanding 5th generation fighter program. However, Shenyangs revelation of an advanced forward-swept wing but single-engine 5th generation fighter concept at the recent 2006 Zhuhai Airshow, may mean it also is aiming for an affordable next-generation design.



Again nonsense. These rumors have been there all along with China building this and China building that. I am clearly surprised that you actually buy this BS. JXX and its related pictures have been bashed already on other forums and though i do not discount the fact that china is being busy in modernizing her armed forces, it is still years behind from what the west has to offer.



> So they are stil busy with J6 according to you? Or do you think that revealing J10 was jus their last card?



Stop posting crap i never said so. Read my posts again.


----------



## IceCold

Munir said:


> Probably not true but still signs of activity.... More then your word that they do not have.
> 
> >>>
> China develops advanced avionicsnews
> 
> 20 August 2007
> 
> China's new J10A fighter uses a hi-tech active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. The country revealed its range of military AESA radars recently, after years of intense research and development.
> 
> AESA systems consist of thousands of tiny radars that make it possible to track many different targets simultaneously. China claims its new J10A radar can track 10 targets at a time and attack four of them simultaneously with long-range missiles.
> 
> The J10 is also completely Chinese made, though it looks very similar to the American F-16 and even weighs about the same (19 tonnes). Like the F-16 (and unlike the Russian Su-27), the J10 has only one engine, the new Chinese WS10A, developed after a decade of development. Originally, the J10 used a Russian AL-31FN engine.
> 
> The J10 resembles the F-16 because Israel is supposed to have secretly sold China the technology for the Israeli Lavi jet fighter after Israel itself abandoned the Lavi project because it was cheaper to buy F-16s and F-15s from the United States.
> 
> 
> The Lavi was meant to be a super F-16, and the Israelis had developed new components for the plane. China has about a dozen J10As in service. The numbers will increase once the WS10A engine is put into production, in a year or two. China has long sought jet engine and AESA technology from the US, and has often been accused of espionage for the purpose.



Ohh for god sake! Will you just stop posting crap. My God you just copied the same article from the previous page and pasted it here again to support your paper argument. J-10 has an AESA radar, do i even need to say anything more to prove how creditable this news source of yours is.


----------



## IceCold

Munir said:


> Let us look at Janes...
> 
> >>>China working on 'Super-10' advanced fighter
> 
> 09 January 2006
> China working on 'Super-10' advanced fighter
> 
> By Henry Ivanov JDW Correspondent
> Moscow
> 
> China is developing an advanced version of the Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Corporation (CAC) J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, referred to as the Super-10, with a more powerful engine, thrust-vector control, stronger airframe and passive phased-array radar, according to Russian sources.
> 
> Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG (RSK-MiG) specialists, contracted to provide technical assistance to Chinese design houses, said the enhancement to the J-10 airframe is a logical step, since the fighter was initially intended to have the compact Pratt&Whitney PW1120 engine that powered the Israeli Lavi aircraft, which served as a basis for the J-10.
> 
> However, the imposition of US export restrictions forced the decision to install the 20 per cent heavier Russian AL-31FN engine, which requires a larger intake as it needs 40 per cent more air flow.
> 
> In late 2005 China placed a USD300 million order for a second batch of AL-31FN engines; these are a derivative of the Su-27's AL-31F for single-engine aircraft, with a lower positioning of the gearbox. At first, it was believed the contract was for the same engines as in the first batch of 54 units supplied in 2001-02 and installed into development prototypes and initial production J-10s. However, AL-31FN-maker Moscow Machine Production Plant (MMPP) Salyut in December 2005 revealed the order to be for the AL-31FN M1, which is claimed to be a new AL-31FN production standard.
> 
> The company's general manager, Yuri Eliseyev, said the new engine was purposely developed for what he referred to as the "Chinese Super-10 fighter". Four such engines have been seen assembled at MMPP Salyut's Moscow production site. One of these has been demonstrated undergoing fire testing, during
> 
> You can say where there is smoke there will be some fire... And frankly I rather look at more sources and then say something logical then a personal flame that think tank member should know better...
> 
> [You can find the rest yourself... I bet you know how to handle Google]



Do you ever give up. Read the article you just pasted, it says a passive phased array and not an active phased array? Do you even understand the difference between the two? Also if you just happened to spend a little more time in reading my previous posts a bit carefully rather then spending your time in searching utter nonsense, you would have noticed that i did too mentioned the super-10 and my previous post on about the article being rubbish was based on the current model of the J-10 having an AESA radar and not super-10.

You have just waisted enough of my time and i certainly do not wish to carry on with you on this since you have no grounds to hold on too, therefore this will be my last reply to you on this issue.


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## Munir

You wouldn't recognize a donkey, even if it was written on it. 

If you hardly have the knowledge to understand why Turkey and Greece do not start shooting eachother then why should I believe you? What is your background and what makes you worth to be read? Sofar I see hardly valuable input from your side. To tell you the truth, we have seen many posters on several websites saying they knew it all. And you might wonder why they got it wrong? I bet you cannot think even beyond that. Are you a Pakistani? I doubt that. 2300 posts doesn't make you worth anything. And I can clearly say that you should join Pakistani politics. You are suited for that.

Mr many posts quits discussion cause he has nothing else to say besides China cannot produce a fighter based AESA... What is next? Crying?


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## IceCold

Munir said:


> You wouldn't recognize a donkey, even if it was written on it.
> 
> If you hardly have the knowledge to understand why Turkey and Greece do not start shooting eachother then why should I believe you? What is your background and what makes you worth to be read? Sofar I see hardly valuable input from your side. To tell you the truth, we have seen many posters on several websites saying they knew it all. And you might wonder why they got it wrong? I bet you cannot think even beyond that. Are you a Pakistani? I doubt that. 2300 posts doesn't make you worth anything. And I can clearly say that you should join Pakistani politics. You are suited for that.
> 
> Mr many posts quits discussion cause he has nothing else to say besides China cannot produce a fighter based AESA... What is next? Crying?



There you go again with your usual rant. Now tell me from where did Turkey and Greece fall into? When i asked that, it was beecause of the videos posted there showing a dog fight going on between the two sides and as this guy from turkey was saying that the Greek jet crashed, so i asked big deal, unlike you i do have the gutts to ask others if i do not have the understanding of a certain issue. You on the other hand are too bigot to understand anything beyond your self centered personality.

And about me not being Pakistani, look who's saying it some one from holland with pakistani flags. A sincere piece of advice stop waisting Bandwidth.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Settle down now guys, before we have to lock this thread and start issuing infractions.*

Both of you have essentially agreed on the original point.

China does not as of now have a working AESA in its J-10 (that we know of), though that does not preclude them from having potential prototypes or ongoing development work on an AESA.

Lets leave it at that please.

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## Munir

And the topic was:

I said China is certainly busy with fighter sized AESA and Icy thinks that J10/China has no AESA...

EDITED


Let me refrase the topic:

Is China at this moment busy with AESA or not? Is there anything like JXX in the deveopment? And then the part : WHY?


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## fatman17

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> *Settle down now guys, before we have to lock this thread and start issuing infractions.*
> 
> Both of you have essentially agreed on the original point.
> 
> China does not as of now have a working AESA in its J-10 (that we know of), though that does not preclude them from having potential prototypes or ongoing development work on an AESA.
> 
> Lets leave it at that please.



cooling off period is highly recommended bcuz i have a lot of respect for both munir and icecold!

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## Munir

I dumped the entire topic but since it is edited and the best idea ever about cooling down is " forced". We can settle this topic as non importante. Unfortunate both PAF and China are not the most open source so we will see in the next -12 months hopeful something to get more discussion...

I am no fan of AESA on small fighters. It comes intresting on MKI/F15 size... You need awful lot space for cooling, hardware and I hope that AEW&C could do that much better... I would not add 5 million radar on a plane worth 15 million.


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## Nomi929

Munir said:


> I am no fan of AESA on small fighters. It comes intresting on MKI/F15 size... You need awful lot space for cooling, hardware and I hope that AEW&C could do that much better... I would not add 5 million radar on a plane worth 15 million.



Fully Agreed!!!

There is no point is equipping Jf-17 with AESA.

All PAF needs to do is add two additional hardpoints and reduce the weight of Aircraft. Thats IT!

JF-17 with French RC-400 radar along with MICA missiles will more than fulfills its objective.

For AESA radars, it would be nice to see them on J-10.


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## Neo

Keep in mind that JF-17 Block I won't need an AESA for its primary roles. We've entered the era of netcentric warfare where Awacs can do the same if not better job for the pilot and whole formation by interlinks.

Munir has a point that AESA is an overkill for smaller planes, specially JF-17 which lacks range to perform deep interdict strikes and therefor will not operate in deeper hostile aesospace.

Future Block II but certainly FC-20 are better candidates for the AESA and will have IDS/DP capability.

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## indiapakistanfriendship

> I am no fan of AESA on small fighters. It comes intresting on MKI/F15 size... You *need awful lot space for cooling, hardware *and I hope that AEW&C could do that much better... I would not add 5 million radar on a plane worth 15 million.



Are you for real, AESA packaging and cooling solutions are more compact and efficient then any other mechanicl counterpart. Infact that is also one of the major advantages of AESA. Do you have any idea how much heat mechanical radars emit and the amount of hardware and cooling solutions required for conventonal radars.

IPF

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## indiapakistanfriendship

> Munir has a point that AESA is an overkill for smaller planes, specially JF-17 which lacks range to perform deep interdict strikes and therefor will not operate in deeper hostile aesospace.



Neo I think you forgot an important feature of AESA which is stealth. Jf 17 is primarily designed for interception and when faced with Indian deep strike package like MKI or MRCA, it is always better to be low observable ...

IPF


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## Munir

indiapakistanfriendship said:


> Are you for real, AESA packaging and cooling solutions are more compact and efficient then any other mechanicl counterpart. Infact that is also one of the major advantages of AESA. Do you have any idea how much heat mechanical radars emit and the amount of hardware and cooling solutions required for conventonal radars.
> 
> IPF




Another person with hardly reliable info... Sorry to say but I have read a lot more about AESA then average poster. You should think how F22 had to change lots of things just bacause of cooling... Resetting computers was one of the problems!

You still have no money to buy a decent aircraft but you want the best possible radar on it? Let me give you a thumbrule... AESA is okay if multi engined and atleast 4 BVR... Otherwise you have performed a circus act like giving Bison BVR capability  I spoke to pilots that fly Romanian BVR Mig21. They did agee... Not happy but still agreed.

Can I hear more of you background? I do not expect that someone with electronics or aviation background can say that AESA is easier to install then conventional radars..

BTW it is not stealth. Anything that emits signals can be tracked. The problem is you need more computing power cause the radar can scan in sectors and so others will not able to track the signal...

>>>Standard equipment for fifth-generation fighters, Active Electronically Scanned Array radars are breathing new life into legacy military and Coast Guard aircraft
Ed McKenna

The operational launch of the F-22 Raptor clearly signaled a changing of the guard for the United States fighter force. Bristling with advanced sensors and weapons systems, the fifth-generation Raptor, along with the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, will take the lead in future war fighting efforts.

These new aircraft are also prompting a renewed retrofit focus on former generation fighters, including the addition of next-generation technologies to make many F/A-18, F-15 and F-16 fighters viable over the next two decades.

Critical to these upgrade efforts is Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. This technology, which is standard on the fifth-generation aircraft, will become the sensor backbone for many of the earlier platforms. Lauded for its versatility, AESA radar also is being deployed on U.S. Coast Guard HC-130H surveillance aircraft and fighters destined for international customers.

*Despite the operational and financial benefits, the campaign to outfit legacy fighters with AESA technology is running into some challenges, namely power, cooling and system costs.*

AESA is the "latest and greatest (and) most desirable radar technology out there," said William Ostrove, electronics analyst for Forecast International, Newtown, Conn. The growth in AESA sales will help boost the worldwide radar market to $50 billion over the next 10 years, Ostrove said. Radars based on mechanically scanned arrays will still make up the bulk of the systems on the market, but the more expensive AESA units will account for a growing percentage of production over the decade.

AESA manufacturers, Raytheon and Northrop Grumman top Forecast International&#8217;s list of radar producers. There are also a number international consortia and companies involved, such as Selex Galileo, Thales and Israel Aerospace Industries.

Carving out a niche in the U.S. military market, AESA radar is also being sought by a number of countries that are purchasing aircraft, such as Singapore and United Arab Emirates. The Indian air force has made AESA radar a requirement in its Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft competition. That tender for 126 aircraft features a faceoff between six of the world&#8217;s leading fighter aircraft &#8212; the Lockheed Martin F-16, Boeing


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## IceCold

Neo said:


> Keep in mind that JF-17 Block I won't need an AESA for its primary roles. We've entered the era of netcentric warfare where Awacs can do the same if not better job for the pilot and whole formation by interlinks.
> 
> Munir has a point that AESA is an overkill for smaller planes, specially JF-17 which lacks range to perform deep interdict strikes and therefor will not operate in deeper hostile aesospace.
> 
> Future Block II but certainly FC-20 are better candidates for the AESA and will have IDS/DP capability.



Neo you forget something that the intended role for the JF-17 is to be the back bone of the PAF which means that it will not only be used for defending and intercepting but deep strike missions as well. Remember PAF is not buying those IL-78 out of nothing. Also as stated by the ACM in his interview, the on going work to increase the hard points from 7 to 9 clearly highlights the fact that the JF-17 will be used for offensive missions as well and with air to air refueling it can effectively carry the mission however in a hostile environment where one would expect tough resistance from a much superior airforce, the thunders will need an AESA radar. It does not matter if the jet costs 15 million and the radar costs 5, the bottom line is that 15 million is just the basic cost of the jet, with western hardware it will surely rise to 25 plus million per jet and more with an AESA radar.


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## muse

Ice

can you explain why the question of number of hardpoints is so important -- if it is true that engagments may last seconds and that in deep strike missions the payload will effect other parameters, why is that we read so much about the number of hard points as a criticism of JF-17 - please shed some light on this


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## Munir

You do not want to have a few punches for long range and risking expensive asset...

Murad:
>>>
System Benefits

The demand for these new radar systems is largely driven by the significant performance improvements and increased reliability gained over legacy systems, according to industry and military officials. Generally, legacy systems rely on mechanically driven antennas that move back and forth to scan. An AESA antenna, on the other hand, does not move but rather consists of a matrix of small, solid state transmit/receive (T/R) modules, in which timing differences between the signals at each module are used to form and steer the radar beam.

On a practical level, the AESA radar "will register a 40 percent savings in life cycle costs over the legacy systems," said Patrick Geraghty, executive vice president radar systems, with Selex Sensors and Airborne Systems U.S. When you replace "the central traveling wave tube technology with a distributed multi-element array, you eliminate that single point of failure risk and get an inherent reliability increase," Geraghty said.

Also, the AESA antenna "has a gradual degradation," said Bill McHenry, Lockheed Martin F-16 business development director. There is no single antenna, but "hundreds of T/R modules, and if you lose one you still have (many) left." If you monitor the situation, "you can plan your maintenance and repairs (and) still fly the airplane and perform your missions."

Reliability was a key selling point for the U.S. Coast Guard when it tapped the Selex Seaspray 7500E AESA surveillance radar to replace the mechanically scanned Raytheon APS-137 on 16 of its HC-130Hs. The APS-137 has been "a very capable radar," but the system&#8217;s wave guides are "failing about every 80 hours," said Capt. Douglas Menders, aviation program manager, U.S. Coast Guard Aviation Acquisition.

The 7500E prototype has been deployed on an HC-130H for more than a year and "really has yet to fail," Menders said. In that time, the system has racked up more than 450 hours of operation.

The Coast Guard AESA radars have about 300 T/R modules, fewer than fire control radars on fighter aircraft, which can have more than 1,000 modules. It is "what we call a partially filled array," Geraghty said.

The system, which costs less than the higher density radars, requires fewer modules "because it is surveillance related."

The 7500E technology was developed in European programs including the Airborne Multirole Solid State Active Array Radar and CAPTOR Active Electronically Scanning Array Radar, Geraghty said. SELEX also offers its Vixen 500E AESA radar for fighter aircraft and UAVs as well as fixed and light helicopters.

Slated to be deployed by late 2009, the Coast Guard radars will cost $49 million, Menders said.

While it was standalone acquisition, the AESA radar will fit nicely with the new cockpit avionics suite, including five or six multifunction displays, that the Coast Guard is planning for the HC-130H, he said. The aircraft &#8212; some which date back to the early 1980s &#8212; are projected to continue in service to at least 2027.

Operationally, AESA radar is expected to deliver a 2-to-3 times boost in performance, said Mike Henchey, Raytheon director of strategy and business development, Tactical Airborne Systems (TAS). The technology extends "the range at which you are able to detect a target" and, "because you&#8217;ve got many, many small radars (or T/R modules), updates the target&#8217;s position very, very quickly," said Geraghty.

AESA radar can "truly be a force multiplier," said Dave Goold, Raytheon&#8217;s business development director for the F-18. On a two-place Super Hornet with decoupled cockpit, for example, "you could have the front cockpit doing an air-to-air mission, while nearly simultaneously the aft cockpit is performing air-to-ground."

The radar "supports multiple radar modes that include real beam mapping, Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) mapping, sea surface search, ground moving target indication and tracking and air-to-air search and track," said Cmdr. A.J. McFarland, F&#8260;A-18 and EA-18G radar integrated product team military lead for the Navy.

"These modes can be interleaved and operated near-simultaneously, demonstrating a quantum leap in combat capability over our legacy radars."

The Navy plans to deploy 437 F/A-18 E/F and EA-18G Growlers &#8212; the latter an electronic attack version of the F/A-18F slated to replace the EA-6B Prowler. About 304 will be delivered off the line from Boeing, while 133 will be retrofitted with radars "procured directly from Raytheon on a schedule of roughly 20 per year," McFarland said.

In July, Raytheon delivered its 100th APG-79 AESA system to Boeing and the Navy for the F/A-18 and EA-18G.

The first unit to deploy F/A-18s with the AESA radar is VFA-22, the "Redcocks," from Naval Air Station (NAS) Lemoore in California. "They deployed aboard USS Ronald Reagan in May (and) are currently in the Western Pacific," McFarland said in July.

The VAQ-129 Electronic Attack Squadron at NAS Whidbey Island, Wash., is the first EA-18G squadron to deploy the radar.

System Challenges

For all its potential, AESA technology also provides challenges. Selex&#8217;s Seaspray system, for example, includes many more modes than the older system, and "those modes are pretty robust," said Menders. "There are a lot of different interfaces and target symbologies (involved), so there is going to be a pretty good learning curve for the operators."

"In many ways, aircrew workload will increase because the AESA radar is capable of providing much more information than previous radars could provide," said McFarland.

"However, the improved range of the AESA also provides the aircrew with exponentially better situational awareness, enabling them to make better informed tactical decisions sooner than they could using legacy radars."

Radar manufacturers have faced and continue to face development challenges.

"Weight, costs, electricity and cooling &#8212; those are the big challenges," especially in the retrofit of these technologies, said Richard Aboulafia, vice president of analysis at the Teal Group.

Eight years ago, the first generation array was deployed on the F-15C because it is a "bigger fighter with a real solid structure and it could carry some weight," said Henchey. In fact, the system was so much heavier than the mechanical systems "ballast had to be placed in the back of airplanes," he added.

Current systems weigh about half as much as earlier radars, or about the same as mechanical systems, and will continue to decrease as the AESA gets thinner, Henchey said. Eventually, the array will become flexible enough to mount in areas other than the nose "because the requirement for flat mounting space will be backed off." The radar will be able to be oriented in different directions and provide a broader perspective.

The U.S. Air Force plans to upgrade the radars in 177 F-15Cs and 224 F-15Es &#8212; the two models are slated to remain in the fleet through 2025 and 2035, respectively, Henchey said.

In the marketplace, weight, cooling and power issues helped drive Lockheed Martin to build the separate F-16 Block 60 to meet United Arab Emirates&#8217; requirement for 80 aircraft with AESA technology. The airplanes required "some cooling and power upgrades or enhancements," said McHenry. The first aircraft with the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80 was delivered to UAE in 2005.

Lockheed is looking at upgrading some of its F-16 Block 50 aircraft.

"We are cautiously optimistic that this is a doable do and won&#8217;t involve a significant modification to the airplane," McHenry said.

The optimism is based on two recently launched programs: Northrop Grumman&#8217;s Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) and Raytheon&#8217;s Advanced Combat Radar (RACR). The two programs are targeted at F-16 retrofits at least in the short run.

SABR is designed specifically to address F-16 electrical and physical interfaces without modification and fit within currently defined power and cooling requirements, according to Northrop Grumman. SABR demonstration flights are planned for later this year on Northrop Grumman&#8217;s Sabreliner, which emulates the F-16 avionics suite and has been used for previous F-16 radar testing. The SABR program "is our investment toward maintaining the F-16&#8217;s combat capability," said Chris Sheppard, F-16 Sensor Systems Program Development manager.

Similarly, RACR, unveiled at the Farnborough Airshow in July, "is designed to work with existing aircraft power and cooling," Henchey said. The RACR system can be "dropped with minimal impact into to the airplane."

The programs also tout lower prices. In fact, all of the manufacturers say prices have been on the decline, and there is evidence in the market to support this. "As it is being produced more and more and technology is maturing, the price is starting to go down, which is further increasing demand" for the systems, Ostrove said.

"We have been running the program since the early 1990s and have been able to over that time evolve the costs down to the point where we can readily compete with the traditional mechanical systems," said Geraghty.

It is "not exactly dollar for dollar; but when you compare the cost of acquisition compared with the life cycle cost savings, it is a very compelling argument."

"AESA is one of those technologies that is emerging and is now becoming cost effective," said McHenry. "By 2020 or 2025... it will be an accepted part of fighter airplanes."

However, outside of the Indian competition, "I don&#8217;t have any other customer who has an RFI [request for information] or RFP [Request for Proposal] on the street that says an AESA is a requirement. But I do have customers that are interested in talking about it," McHenry said.

AESA Developed For Communications
A versatile technology, Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar is being developed as a base for high-speed communications. However, the initiative is running up against funding challenges that are thwarting its progress.

Spearheaded by L-3 Communications, the effort to deploy this communication capacity is being abetted by both Raytheon and Northrop Grumman. The goal is allow for speedy transmission of the mass of critical data gathered by advanced sensors on fighter aircraft to others that may need it on the ground or in the air.

"What we have done is modify one of the common data link waveforms and turned it into a waveform that enables data to be carried on a pulse carrier signal instead of traditional continuous wave carrier," said Bruce Carmichael, vice president of Air Force Programs with L-3 Communication Systems West, based in Salt Lake City.

This waveform, called the Radar Common Data Link (R-CDL) or Pulsed Common Data Link (P-CDL), has been developed and was successfully flight tested about a year ago, Carmichael said. In practical terms, the capability would be "a new mode for the radar &#8212; a communications mode of operation," said Carmichael.

The capability of that mode encompasses a range of potential operations, from one-way broadcasts to interleaved "fully duplexed" exchanges between two stations, said Dave Robbins, an engineering lead for R-CDL at L-3 Communications.

Raytheon has demonstrated the system can transmit data at rates of 274 megabytes a second &#8212; "a speed that starts to approach instantaneous," said Mike Henchey, Raytheon&#8217;s director of strategy and business development, Tactical Airborne Systems. It is a speed that easily eclipsed the current military standard. "If you are relying on a tactical data link like Link 16, it might take you close to an hour to get a 72-megabyte file off of the aircraft," said Carmichael. With R-CDL, that transmission "is a matter of 3 to 5 seconds," he said.

The system could be used to provide close air support or help take out surface-to-air missile sites, said Joe Nunes, program manager for the Northrop Grumman R-CDL team at L-3 Communications. "Our sources told us that once a SAM site knows it is painted it can move in as little as six minutes," so time is of the essence, Nunes said. R-CDL can also provide real-time battle damage assessment to decision makers on the ground for re-tasking.

As far as system development is concerned, "we have gone through the basic challenges &#8212; the next step is to integrate the capability on the aircraft themselves... along with the man-machine interfaces," Carmichael said.

However, to do this and keep the program team together, the initiative needs funding. "That is the biggest thing right now," Carmichael said. "Our team is in a funding gap, so it is hard to keep the team together and go ahead," said Nunes.

On the positive side, "it has been recognized as a requirement for the F-22, so that is a major step forward," said Carmichael. &#8212; Ed McKenna

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## IceCold

muse said:


> Ice
> 
> can you explain why the question of number of hardpoints is so important -- if it is true that engagments may last seconds and that in deep strike missions the payload will effect other parameters, why is that we read so much about the number of hard points as a criticism of JF-17 - please shed some light on this



The point of having more hard points is to effectively carry on with bombing raids while having something to defend its way back after the successful delivery of the payload.Currently with a max weapon payload of 3800 kg,it cannot perform well in a dedicated air to ground role. More payload for example with conformal fuel tanks, the drag increases meaning it will certainly effect the performance when quick turns are needed in case of a dog fight or perhaps from a SAM site. Dog fights these days might become very rare as all jets, interceptors, strikers will be equipped with BVR and fuel tanks can be dropped once the intended distance is achieved.


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## muse

So the criticism is that it's payload is insufficient for deep strike mission and not necessarily that it requires more hard points


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## indiapakistanfriendship

EDITED



> You should think how F22 had to change lots of things just bacause of cooling... Resetting computers was one of the problems!


Cooling is a problem because you need to perfect cooling solutions o highly sensitive modules and computers, but how does that mean you need an awful lot of cooling space as you had mentioned in your post. From concept stage to today everything in F22 is an evolution so it is expected to undergo problems. Designing very small cooling solution for micro level electronics is a challenging task and will obviously face probles but that never means they occupy an awful lot of space. So much for your knowledge on AESA.



> You still have no money to buy a decent aircraft but you want the best possible radar on it? Let me give you a thumbrule



Frankly I don't care what happens with PAF, untill you posted wrong infromation regarding AESA ie *. You need awful lot space for cooling, hardware* and proceed to belillte other members. 



> AESA is *okay if multi engined* and atleast 4 BVR... Otherwise you have performed a circus act like giving Bison BVR capability I spoke to pilots that fly Romanian BVR Mig21. They did agee... Not happy but still agreed.



Tell that to SAAB and Lock mart who in all their very little knowledge decided to install AESA in single engined aircrafts.



> Can I hear more of you background? I do not expect that someone with electronics or aviation background can say that AESA is easier to install then conventional radars..



Ill tell u what, I come from a university whose Aerospace department is the best in India, which contributes nearly half of manpower to DRDO and HAL as far as aviation is concerned, Kalam was our alumnus and I have had lectures under him. I personally have my university hostel mates working on cutting edge stuff in defence both here and for western governments. As far as I am concerned, I advice a South Indian state government and an African government on policy level for adopting certain space based leapfrog(for developing nations) technologies. No go figure out...



> BTW it is not stealth. Anything that emits signals can be tracked. The problem is you need more computing power cause the radar can scan in sectors and so others will not able to track the signal



Yeah I know that, your pont being.



> Despite the operational and financial benefits, the campaign to outfit legacy fighters with AESA technology is running into some challenges, namely power, cooling and system cost




Good lord you have based all your arguments based on this one statement. EDITED


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Comments like "Are you for real" (IPF), will lead to responses like "Another person with hardly reliable info" (Munir), and "hot air" (IPF).

You guys do not need to ridicule the other before or after you make your point - just make your point, and present your sources/justification/evidence and leave it at that.

Enough of this disrespecting each other crap. Keep it civil.


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## Neo

IceCold said:


> Neo you forget something that the intended role for the JF-17 is to be the back bone of the PAF which means that it will not only be used for defending and intercepting but deep strike missions as well. Remember PAF is not buying those IL-78 out of nothing. Also as stated by the ACM in his interview, the on going work to increase the hard points from 7 to 9 clearly highlights the fact that the JF-17 will be used for offensive missions as well and with air to air refueling it can effectively carry the mission however in a hostile environment where one would expect tough resistance from a much superior airforce, the thunders will need an AESA radar. It does not matter if the jet costs 15 million and the radar costs 5, the bottom line is that 15 million is just the basic cost of the jet, with western hardware it will surely rise to 25 plus million per jet and more with an AESA radar.



ACM was referring to the BLock II as there will be no structural changes in Block I which is not designed for IDS role. Current payload is 3800kg with 7 hardpoints, the Thunder will have to refuel en flight to enhance range and still it will not get deep into hostile territory due refueling restrictions. 
JF-17 will do excellent job as interceptor providing air defence and CAS in point defending role. Once FC-20 is inducted we'll have true DP capability with an typical Strike formation of 8 FC-20, 8 F-16D and 16 JF-17's.
Thats when AESA comes into the picture.


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## jzhang

I don't like it's aspect.


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## Kharian_Beast

I agree, sticking AESA into the JF-17 without structural changes and improvements in engine and payload isn't worth it. AESA could be a possibility on the Super 10 (if this infact is not a JXX derived rumor). By the way, some top notch fighters in the world today such as Eurofighter and Rafale *do not even use AESA radar* !


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## su-47

Kharian_Beast said:


> By the way, some top notch fighters in the world today such as Eurofighter and Rafale *do not even use AESA radar* !



But they plan to get AESA. Their AESAs are in development.


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## IceCold

Kharian_Beast said:


> I agree, sticking AESA into the JF-17 without structural changes and improvements in engine and payload isn't worth it. AESA could be a possibility on the Super 10 (if this infact is not a JXX derived rumor). By the way, some top notch fighters in the world today such as Eurofighter and Rafale *do not even use AESA radar* !



Why do you think Gripen has an AESA radar? Also both Rafale and EF will be equipped with an AESA radar. Improvement in is payload is already on its way as suggested by the ACM however as mentioned by NEO it will be for the next batch and so does the engine issue. By the way we are talking about an AESA radar for the next batch of the JF-17.


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## Kharian_Beast

IceCold said:


> Why do you think Gripen has an AESA radar? Also both Rafale and EF will be equipped with an AESA radar. Improvement in is payload is already on its way as suggested by the ACM however as mentioned by NEO it will be for the next batch and so does the engine issue. By the way we are talking about an AESA radar for the next batch of the JF-17.



Gripen currently does not have active phased radar! Though they will in a few years. 

And you must keep in mind that the Gripen will be substantially upgraded to accommodate AESA (Gripen NG). EF and Rafale were capable platforms from the start...not sure why why would they leave out the AESA from the beginning. Was the European consortium and France really that far behind in radar just a few years ago?

What will the new engine be on the Thunder?


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## IceCold

Kharian_Beast said:


> Gripen currently does not have active phased radar! Though they will in a few years.
> 
> And you must keep in mind that the Gripen will be substantially upgraded to accommodate AESA (Gripen NG). EF and Rafale were capable platforms from the start...not sure why why would they leave out the AESA from the beginning. Was the European consortium and France really that far behind in radar just a few years ago?
> 
> What will the new engine be on the Thunder?



The Gripen NG has an AESA radar that is why it is offered to both Netherlands and India with it. 



> Gripen NG Fighters for The Netherlands
> Following the submission of its proposals in response to the Dutch MoDs F-16 Replacement programme, the Saab/Gripen team held a press conference in Den Haag to outline its proposals.
> 
> Gripen NG Next Generation fighter.
> 
> 9/1/2008 | The Saab proposal is a comprehensive response to the Royal Netherlands Air Force (RNLAF) F-16 fighter replacement Questionnaire.
> 
> Saab is offering an all-inclusive package comprising eighty-five (85) fully compliant NATO interoperable Gripen Next Generation (NG) true multi-role fighter aircraft with unrivalled availablilty, tailored for the future Net Centric (NCW) operational environment. Gripen NG will meet the demanding operational requirements of the RNLAF over the next 50 years and its unrivalled multi-role capability will provide the RNLAF with tactical flexibility in an unknown future.
> 
> Gripen NG offers operational dominance and flexibility with outstanding mission survivability. Air-to-air superiority is guaranteed with METEOR, AMRAAM, IRIS-T, AIM-9X, 12 missile capability, supercruise and Gripen NGs superior situation awareness is delivered through an *AESA radar*, IRST, HMD, leading edge avionics design, next generation data processing and a state-of-the-art cockpit. These features, coupled with Gripen NGs inherent Net Centric Capabilities including advanced data communications, dual datalinks, satellite comms and video links, coupled with increased range and thrust from its General Electric F414G Turbofan engine.
> 
> Saab is also offering a support solution that includes optimized key functions such as maintenance, training, supply and clearly defined support resources. The package includes Role Equipment for 85 aircraft including aircrew equipment, helmet-mounted displays, fuel drop tanks, pylons, EW systems, IRST systems and chaff and flare dispensers. In addition, the package includes mission support equipment, including mission planning and evaluation systems, digital map generating systems, threat library support systems, radio frequency planning systems and maintenance ground support system.
> The training and logistics element includes mission simulators, desktop and computer-based training systems, pilot and ground crew training as well as ground support equipment, spares, publications and aircrew and ground crew support.
> 
> The Gripen NG solution meets the operational requirements of the RNLAF, delivers true multi-role capability and state-of-the-art technology. Owing to its outstanding reliability, maintainability and supportability Gripen will deliver at the most affordable acquisition and operational costs, compared to the known or predicted costs of alternative platforms. Gripens credible and fixed acquisition cost is based upon firm orders and known programme timescales. For the Netherlands, this would imply significant cost savings over 40+ years operation in comparison to alternative platforms. With experience from over 100,000 flight hours, current Gripen users have proven the unbeatable Life Cycle Costs of Gripen, which will be further improved in Gripen NG.
> 
> Gripen industrial co-operation has a proven track record around the world. Saab AB has a successful track record from more than 20 countries and has always succeeded in fulfilling industrial co-operation commitments, as proven in for example the Netherlands, Denmark, Hungary, Czech Republic, South Africa and Norway. In the Netherlands, Saab has co-operated with over 90 Dutch companies directly, or through industrial networks, with an offset delivery of 181 MEUR to date. Gripen International, through Saab AB, guarantees to deliver more than 100% of the contract value.
> 
> Gripen NG fulfills all Dutch requirements and will keep the RNLAF at the leading edge of military capabilities through 2050. Gripen NG meets all of the RNLAF operational requirements, has unbeatable low acquisition, operation and support costs and with technology transfer, will provide unrivalled access enabling autonomy and increased national security. With the full support of the Swedish government, the backing of world-leading defence industrial partners, Gripen NG is the fighter for the Netherlands.




EF and Rafale are both capable platforms yet they did not have an AESA radar which shows about the difficulties that lie when incooperating an AESA radar to a fighter size. Note China too has an AESA radar for their AWACS, yet the J-10 does not have it. Point that i am trying to make is that it has nothing to do with backwardness but the difficulties that are there to incooperate an AESA radar. It might not be related with the radar alone, but different factors including the cooling down of the system in a fighter nose.
As for the engine I think there is an on going discussion over the engine issue in the JF-17 thread, its better if we discuss is there as this is not the thread.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Multiple hard points are not loaded with weapons for long range missions---on present day long range missions there maybe one or two smart bombs and depending upon he severity of the mission, the plane maynot even have any defensive capability like A to A missiles except for the machine guns---the plane will be loaded up with extra fuel to make it to the point of impact and maybe barely enough fumes to fly back to the home base.

The multiple hard points are for ground stike role in assisting the army on the front lines. Deep strike missions into iraq by the usaf F 16's---where the F 16 only carried a single smart bomb----similiarly IAF israel F 16 using the F 16 with a single or two smart bombs for their deep strike missions and no A to A missile for the protection of the aircraft---only F 15's flying behind to give protection on the way back.


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## AAHAN

Kindly discuss the efficiency of j-10 specially against f-16,su-30 and f-18


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## Neo

AAHAN said:


> Kindly discuss the efficiency of j-10 specially against f-16,su-30 and f-18



Read the thread and whole you'll find enough answers.


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## JF-17

I would like to say just this thing over here that China's aircraft are not relible. If pakistan get the J_10lso JF-17 we have modify these aircraft according to thier opponents. i think you peoples agre with me.
first of pakistan air force is to make thier aircraft BVR compaitible( F-7's, Mir iii/v, F-16's)
then they hould think about any think other


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## Muradk

JF-17 said:


> I would like to say just this thing over here that China's aircraft are not relible. If pakistan get the J_10lso JF-17 we have modify these aircraft according to thier opponents. i think you peoples agre with me.
> first of pakistan air force is to make thier aircraft BVR compaitible( F-7's, Mir iii/v, F-16's)
> then they hould think about any think other



Very true China's Aircrafts are not relible that's why PAF has been flying there fighter for the last 40 years. You never modify a plane you upgrade it to your level of satisfaction, Where you say Ok this plane is ready for operational use. Once again I stress that BVR is not a big deal.

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## ejaz007

JF-17 said:


> I would like to say just this thing over here that China's aircraft are not relible. If pakistan get the J_10lso JF-17 we have modify these aircraft according to thier opponents. i think you peoples agre with me.
> first of pakistan air force is to make thier aircraft BVR compaitible( F-7's, Mir iii/v, F-16's)
> then they hould think about any think other



Proper entry procedure into a forum is by introducing yourself first. Please go to members introduction and introduce yourself so that we may know about you a bit better.

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## Myth_buster_1

JF-17 said:


> I would like to say just this thing over here that China's aircraft are not relible.


why is that? Chinese F-6/mig-19 in 71 war came out with better kill ratio then any other fighter and even shot down superior mig-21. in 1979 Pak-US joint exercise "midlink" F-6 was pitched aganist USAF F-4 and F-15 and in couple of exercises scored kills on F-15! and some experienced pilots on F-6 have also scored kills on PAF F-16s..
then we have Chinese built mig-21 "F-7" for the last 2 decade which has more successful story in PAF then those flying coffins mig-21 in IAF! 



> If pakistan get the J_10lso JF-17 we have modify these aircraft according to thier opponents. i think you peoples agre with me.
> first of pakistan air force is to make thier aircraft BVR compaitible( F-7's, Mir iii/v, F-16's)
> then they hould think about any think other



dude what ever you have been hearing or reading is not ture! PAF F-16 block 15 OCU is BVR capable but only lacks BVR missile which was never provided to us other then Aim-7 (20-30km range).. PAF has also upgraded its Mirage-III fleet which are now "BVR capable" but again lacks BVR missile.. recently PAC has installed air refueling prob on 30+ Mirage-III for Il-78 which will be arriving next month. 
As for your wonderful idea of inducting only 40 rafaels and scraping 250 JF-17 and FC-20 is just absurd.. JF-17 is going to be PAF backbone for 2-3 decades. now you can not have a army with only "special forces", regulars play as important role as SSGs.. FC-20 is not going to be anything like J-10.. it will feature French avionics and probibly radar.. JF-17 will be equipped with SD-10, MICA and 5th generation short range AAM like A-Darter or ASRAAM. my advice to you would be to read JF-17, FC-20 and F-16 related thread.

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## Neo

JF-17 said:


> I would like to say just this thing over here that China's aircraft are not relible. If pakistan get the J_10lso JF-17 we have modify these aircraft according to thier opponents. i think you peoples agre with me.
> first of pakistan air force is to make thier aircraft BVR compaitible( F-7's, Mir iii/v, F-16's)
> then they hould think about any think other



Dear JF-17,

Your avatar and screen name is quite miseading, your knowedge of the Thunder is extremey poor and your opinion quite biased. JF-17 Block I with chinese avionics and weapon suite is aready rated to be more capable than block 15 F-16A/B currenty in use with PAF, Bock II will be even more capable depending on its radar, strengthened fuselage and wings and addintional hardpoints with possibility of a european powerplant.

Only frontline fighters in PAF's inventory , i.e. F-16, JF-17 and Mirage III Rose will be equipped with BVR missiles. There's no need to modify F-7P or PG.

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## Spring Onion

Thank You Munir . I had posted the video to pay you tribute for making it on Youtube.

Great


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## Munir

I am honoured! I wish I had the oppertunity to get HD quality back then but if times change I hope once to get there in Pakistan to make a much better JF17 movie... A few nice pics will do but nothing beats good filming and nice music!

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## Spring Onion

Munir said:


> I am honoured! I wish I had the oppertunity to get HD quality back then but if times change I hope once to get there in Pakistan to make a much better JF17 movie... A few nice pics will do but nothing beats good filming and nice music!



 actualy i was recalling where i had read your name on a video then suddenly it clicked as i was also on def.info.

Great work.

If you land here in Pakistan. Be my guest Sir.


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## Munir

Some time earlier...











and the fun project with a smile

http://video.google.com/videosearch...-nl&q=LCA&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wv#

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## Neo

A Chinese exclusive on FC-1/JF-17

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## IceCold

Neo said:


> A Chinese exclusive on FC-1/JF-17
> 
> [url="
> 
> 
> 
> - JF-17 FC-1 Thunder[/url]



We do need to do something about this smoke trail that its leaving behind. The infra red signature is quite visable and so is the smoke to the naked eye.


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## Munir

Icecold,

The engine problem is not that bad that we need to so something. We cannot do cause it is a rugged engine and the point of smoke is not always an issue. The Phantom had two much more smokey engines and yet it did well in WVR against Mig17... And smoke does not mean more IR signature... I think that the exhaust temperature says more about IR then smoke.


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## Nomi929

IceCold said:


> We do need to do something about this smoke trail that its leaving behind. The infra red signature is quite visable and so is the smoke to the naked eye.



I think, Carburetor of JF-17 needs to be changed, so that it can be less smokey


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## araz

Nomi929 said:


> I think, Carburetor of JF-17 needs to be changed, so that it can be less smokey



No stop adulterating the fuel with MITTI KA TAELlol:
Araz


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## Neo

J10 shown at CAC 50th Anniversary. I believe we're looking at the concept of the FC-20 here.

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## Imran Khan

nice its full loaded demo sir every thing is there thanks sir neo


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## TOPGUN

Beautyful pic's thx Imran sir!!!!!!


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## Myth_buster_1

I believe FC-20 will be slightly different then J-10S. 
we are expected to have 2 more hard points on wingtips, DSI and missile warning approach on the rudder if thats what it is on JF-17. i dont see any of those on J-10S so we still have to wait another year of so.


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## Imran Khan

araz said:


> No stop adulterating the fuel with MITTI KA TAELlol:
> Araz



next genration jet fule free only cerosene put on it and flame


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## Black Stone

That's a nice bird, I quite like the J-10.


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## Nishan_101

Salam, man no one in the world can under-estimate J-10s coz it is secret and even its avionics wic i am sure built with the elp of IAI companies R&D. If u look 2 the front it is quite similar 2 Soufa i know by look u can't beleive it , but trust me most of the people think that it is better 2 have J-10s tan F-16(Right). I think they should induct 150-160 FC-20s by 2016 even 2 replace the F-16s which wort coz F-16 is quite expensive 2 operate even for those which have overhaulin facility like egypt n also FC-20s airframe is 4.5 gen whic makes it stealthy n i heard about the WS-10A that it might be rumoured that it is 24900lb engine but now most of the people sayin that it is in the leage of AL-31F1 or maybe better but are not specifing it .The thing that i want 2 say is that plz PAF should never ever be pressurised 2 buy planes of political choice like BLK-52s*($50 million per piece)* which everyone will agry that they took earthquake as an *EXCUSE * to not buy F-16s BLK-52's & also ACM said that FC-20 is going 2 b inducted in 2009 upto 36(may be 50) but i beleive its induction started it would be around 150-160 in 2016. personally i think that IAI avionics companies like ELBIT,ELISRA&KAISER are developing avionics of FC-20. i think they should cancel the order & get some birds. thoroughly n then answer but don't say PAF can't live without F-16's in 2015 okPLZ think now plz reply ok But don't mind it ok ALLAH-HAFIZ.


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## ejaz007

imran khan said:


> next genration jet fule free only cerosene put on it and flame



Why don't we change it to CNG. I know its smooke free fuel and you can refuel any where you want.

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## IceCold

ejaz007 said:


> Why don't we change it to CNG. I know its smooke free fuel and *you can refuel any where you want*.



So this means that our air2air refuelers will actually supply CNG to the jets and not jet fuel.


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## Quwa

Nishan_101 said:


> Salam, man no one in the world can under-estimate J-10s coz it is secret and even its avionics wic i am sure built with the elp of IAI companies R&D. If u look 2 the front it is quite similar 2 Soufa i know by look u can't beleive it , but trust me most of the people think that it is better 2 have J-10s tan F-16(Right). I think they should induct 150-160 FC-20s by 2016 even 2 replace the F-16s which wort coz F-16 is quite expensive 2 operate even for those which have overhaulin facility like egypt n also FC-20s airframe is 4.5 gen whic makes it stealthy n i heard about the WS-10A that it might be rumoured that it is 24900lb engine but now most of the people sayin that it is in the leage of AL-31F1 or maybe better but are not specifing it .The thing that i want 2 say is that plz PAF should never ever be pressurised 2 buy planes of political choice like BLK-52s*($50 million per piece)* which everyone will agry that they took earthquake as an *EXCUSE * to not buy FC-20s i think they should cancel the order & get some birds. PLZ think thoroughly n then answer but don't say PAF can't live without F-16's in 2015 ok


Please consider the fact that FC-20 is still under development if we're to consider it a 4.5 generation fighter. The likely Chinese name for FC-20 is J-10B, and according to Chinese reports/sources - it is still going through testing (of some sort). Granted it may have lower RCS, much better avionics, phased-array radar, stronger engine, TVC, longer-range and higher-payload, etc...but it means little if it hasn't entered production. PAF will receive its first batch around 2010-2011.

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## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> Please consider the fact that FC-20 is still under development if we're to consider it a 4.5 generation fighter. The likely Chinese name for FC-20 is J-10B, and according to Chinese reports/sources - it is still going through testing (of some sort). Granted it may have lower RCS, much better avionics, phased-array radar, stronger engine, TVC, longer-range and higher-payload, etc...but it means little if it hasn't entered production. *PAF will receive its first batch around 2010-2011.*



looking more like 2014 after full induction of JF-17s and F-16s. there is only so much the PAF can do with its limited resources. i wish it was earlier!

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## fatman17

_I have posted this here bcuz it has the latest status of the J-10 purchase for which there is a lot of speculation on the forum_

ASIA PACIFIC 

Date Posted: 21-Oct-2008 

Jane's Defence Weekly 

Pakistan strikes deal for Chinese nuclear reactors

Farhan Bokhari JDW Correspondent - Islamabad

Trefor Moss JDW Asia-Pacific Editor - London

A four-day visit to Beijing by Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari ended on 17 October with China agreeing to sell two new nuclear reactors to Pakistan. 

However, Zardari failed to secure badly needed financial assistance, in spite of the warm relations between the two countries.

According to sources close to the talks, Zardari asked China for a cash deposit of up to USD3 billion: money that Pakistan needs if it is to avoid defaulting on its current-account payments. Islamabad has a current-account deficit of about USD4 billion and a funding gap of USD10 billion for the financial year to June 2009. 

The Chinese rebuttal means that Pakistan will almost certainly have to turn to the International Monetary Fund to help it through an economic crisis driven by high food and fuel prices that, alongside a protracted war against militants in the country's northwest, threatens Pakistan's stability. 

However, Shah Mehmood Qureshi, Pakistan's foreign minister, on 18 October chose to stress the "deep understanding" between the two countries as he announced the civil nuclear deal. 

*No announcement was made on the potential purchase of up to 36 J-10 fighter aircraft by Pakistan, although the deal is believed to have been on Zardari's agenda. *

Pakistan already operates a Chinese reactor at Chasma in Punjab, where the new reactors will be built, with a second currently under construction at the same site. 
Western defence officials said this latest agreement demonstrated that China was prepared to overlook concerns surrounding Pakistan's nuclear programme stemming from the sale of nuclear technology to Iran, Libya and North Korea by the programme's founder AQ Khan. 

Pakistan has sought a civil nuclear agreement from the United States to counterbalance Washington's agreement with India, but has been denied such a deal because of Khan's activities. 

*Pakistani officials renewed their pledge to keep tough safeguards in place surrounding the nuclear programme, including those introduced following the Khan affair. "The world must eventually recognise the systems now in place to control any leakages," a senior Pakistani official told Jane's *. 

*Defence experts believe Pakistan possesses up to 60 nuclear bombs made with uranium and another 10 plutonium-based weapons.*

&#169; 2008 Jane's Information Group


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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> looking more like 2014 after full induction of JF-17s and F-16s. there is only so much the PAF can do with its limited resources. i wish it was earlier!


H Khan on PakDef said that the first batch would arrive in 2010-2011.

Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info

In the long-run, the PAF could end up with up to 150 FC-20s...as per the link.

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## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> H Khan on PakDef said that the first batch would arrive in 2010-2011.
> 
> Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info
> 
> In the long-run, the PAF could end up with up to 150 FC-20s...as per the link.



Mark-i am only questioning the time-lines for induction of platforms. the way i see it the blk-15 F-16s after the MLU will be in service till atleast 2020. the bkl-52s would probably undergo a MLU at some-point in their service life and would be serving the PAF till atleast 2030 or longer. the mirages and F-7, A-5s would be history in the next 3-5 years. that just leaves the JF-17 and the F-20 and possibly the J-11 which will make the bulk of the PAF fleet in the long term. inducting upto 250 F-17s and 150 F-20s over the 2010-1015 time-span sounds awfully ambitious not to mention keeping the F-16s in full readiness and finally who's to say that more F-16s blk 52 wont be purchased.

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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> Mark-i am only questioning the time-lines for induction of platforms. the way i see it the blk-15 F-16s after the MLU will be in service till atleast 2020. the bkl-52s would probably undergo a MLU at some-point in their service life and would be serving the PAF till atleast 2030 or longer. the mirages and F-7, A-5s would be history in the next 3-5 years. that just leaves the JF-17 and the F-20 and possibly the J-11 which will make the bulk of the PAF fleet in the long term. inducting upto 250 F-17s and 150 F-20s over the 2010-1015 time-span sounds awfully ambitious not to mention keeping the F-16s in full readiness and finally who's to say that more F-16s blk 52 wont be purchased.


Well the link said that the first batch of FC-20s of the 36 would arrive in 2010-2011. The PAF may not have a fleet of 150 FC-20s until 2019 or perhaps later. The fleet of 250 JF-17s will probably be inducted by 2019 or a little later...

As I see it, the infrastructure is already in place for the F-16A/B Blk-15, hence any addition of these aircraft would not be too much of an issue. The first F-16C/Ds will not arrive until 2010-2011, and if PAF is going to order more, it will have to confirm in 2009-2010.


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## zavis2003

well i just wanna ask that till 2017 we will have some considerable j 10s than at that time 5th gen Fighters be superior how it will wct as a FRONTLINE fighter


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## Imran Khan

zavis2003 said:


> well i just wanna ask that till 2017 we will have some considerable j 10s than at that time 5th gen Fighters be superior how it will wct as a FRONTLINE fighter



its my dream

PAF fleet till 2015 should be like this...

60- Mirage 2000-9 (FRANCE)
40- Rafale (FRANCE)
40- JAS-39 Grippen (SWEDEN) 
80- SU-27 ubk (UKRAIN) used
120- J10 (CHINA)
50- F/A-18 Hornet (USA)
50 pls F 15 Eagle (KSA or USA) used
60- Panavia Tornado IDV (KSA or DUETCHLAND) used
150-180 F 16 A/B Blk 30/40 (USA) used with MLU
200- JF-17 Armed with better avionics and SD-10 (CHINA-PAK)
120- Mirage F1 for PN (FRANCE) used
40- JH-7A (CHINA)
300-plus F 7-PG with SD-10 (CHINA)
4-5- EMB-145 AWACS (BRAZIL)
4-5- Airbus A-330 Tankers (FRANCE)
30- C-130J (USA)
10- C-17 trooper (USA)
60- K-8 Trnr (CHINA)


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## BATMAN

fatman17 said:


> looking more like 2014 after full induction of JF-17s and F-16s. there is only so much the PAF can do with its limited resources. i wish it was earlier!



Considering above listed modifications which Mark.S has mentioned 2014 seems more realistic possibility, and this is beside the resources issue.
As it is speculated at present testing on prototype of J10S/J10B/FC20 is underway. If we count production start date from begining of 2010 than I guess first serial roll outs will be close to 2011. 
PAF a/c will go under production at earliest 2012..13 and rolling out 2013..14.
Training of pilots may start earlier, hence induction / transition may not be as big of an issue as it seems today.
Considering that it will be superior to F-16 block50/52 ... it is not a bad proposal. 

Until unless, some one decide to buy J-10 which may be readily available.


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## Neo

imran khan said:


> its my dream
> 
> PAF fleet till 2015 should be like this...
> 
> 60- Mirage 2000-9 (FRANCE)
> 40- Rafale (FRANCE)
> 40- JAS-39 Grippen (SWEDEN)
> 80- SU-27 ubk (UKRAIN) used
> 120- J10 (CHINA)
> 50- F/A-18 Hornet (USA)
> 50 pls F 15 Eagle (KSA or USA) used
> 60- Panavia Tornado IDV (KSA or DUETCHLAND) used
> 150-180 F 16 A/B Blk 30/40 (USA) used with MLU
> 200- JF-17 Armed with better avionics and SD-10 (CHINA-PAK)
> 120- Mirage F1 for PN (FRANCE) used
> 40- JH-7A (CHINA)
> 300-plus F 7-PG with SD-10 (CHINA)
> 4-5- EMB-145 AWACS (BRAZIL)
> 4-5- Airbus A-330 Tankers (FRANCE)
> 30- C-130J (USA)
> 10- C-17 trooper (USA)
> 60- K-8 Trnr (CHINA)



Sweet dreams! 
Never gonna happen!


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## Kharian_Beast

Neo said:


> Sweet dreams!
> Never gonna happen!



If I can get elected President maybe even Prime Minister of Pakistan I bet you I could make those dreams come true. As a pre-campaign promise, I will raise more money than Pablo Escobar to allocate for the defense budget which I will set at 47 billion USD. Children will be taken to school in Eurofighters and the Frontier Corps will be getting shiny new G-36C rifles and CV90's, while the Navy will be allowed to have 2 carriers one named PNS Mohammad Ali Jinnah and the other named PNS Kharian Beast. My presidency would also see the development of the first nuclear sub, the PNS Khudahafiz.

Maybe I should campaign closer to JXX timeframe, because that would be of utmost importance to the Air Force and with the usual crowd in power you are looking at probably a 50 year wait if China gets it on the assembly line within 10 years. I would get the plane even before China 

Al Khalid 3 would be stealth.

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## Black Stone

Kharian_Beast said:


> If I can get elected President maybe even Prime Minister of Pakistan I bet you I could make those dreams come true. As a pre-campaign promise, I will raise more money than Pablo Escobar to allocate for the defense budget which I will set at 47 billion USD. Children will be taken to school in Eurofighters and the Frontier Corps will be getting shiny new G-36C rifles and CV90's, while the Navy will be allowed to have 2 carriers one named PNS Mohammad Ali Jinnah and the other named PNS Kharian Beast. My presidency would also see the development of the first nuclear sub, the PNS Khudahafiz.
> 
> Maybe I should campaign closer to JXX timeframe, because that would be of utmost importance to the Air Force and with the usual crowd in power you are looking at probably a 50 year wait if China gets it on the assembly line within 10 years. I would get the plane even before China
> 
> Al Khalid 3 would be stealth.



Imran khan's post is already a dream...your post is on another level.


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## Kharian_Beast

Black Stone said:


> Imran khan's post is already a dream...your post is on another level.



YES WE CAN! CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN!


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## Imran Khan

Neo said:


> Sweet dreams!
> Never gonna happen!



may be but no body can stop me whats i think in my free time


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## su-47

Kharian_Beast said:


> If I can get elected President maybe even Prime Minister of Pakistan I bet you I could make those dreams come true. As a pre-campaign promise, I will raise more money than Pablo Escobar to allocate for the defense budget which I will set at 47 billion USD. Children will be taken to school in Eurofighters and the Frontier Corps will be getting shiny new G-36C rifles and CV90's, while the Navy will be allowed to have 2 carriers one named PNS Mohammad Ali Jinnah and the other named PNS Kharian Beast. My presidency would also see the development of the first nuclear sub, the PNS Khudahafiz.
> 
> Maybe I should campaign closer to JXX timeframe, because that would be of utmost importance to the Air Force and with the usual crowd in power you are looking at probably a 50 year wait if China gets it on the assembly line within 10 years. I would get the plane even before China
> 
> Al Khalid 3 would be stealth.



u have given this a lot of thought haven't you? Well, best of luck.


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## superbikez

My dream  

PAF fleet till 2015-217 should be like this...

3- B-52
2-B1
4-KC-135 Air Refueler
30- F/A-18 Hornet 
15- F-15 Eagle
200- F 16 A/B Blk 30/40
200- JF-17
20-JXX Stealth
atleast 1 Nuclear Aircraft Carrier  (Abraham lincon)

*after if B2 wageera bhi mil jaye tu masla nahe  *


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## ejaz007

Kharian_Beast said:


> If I can get elected President maybe even Prime Minister of Pakistan I bet you I could make those dreams come true. As a pre-campaign promise, I will raise more money than Pablo Escobar to allocate for the defense budget which I will set at 47 billion USD. Children will be taken to school in Eurofighters and the Frontier Corps will be getting shiny new G-36C rifles and CV90's, while the Navy will be allowed to have 2 carriers one named PNS Mohammad Ali Jinnah and the other named PNS Kharian Beast. My presidency would also see the development of the first nuclear sub, the PNS Khudahafiz.
> 
> Maybe I should campaign closer to JXX timeframe, because that would be of utmost importance to the Air Force and with the usual crowd in power you are looking at probably a 50 year wait if China gets it on the assembly line within 10 years. I would get the plane even before China
> 
> Al Khalid 3 would be stealth.



You can't get elected in Pakistan on this agenda. However I can tell you an easier way. Join PA, get promoted to the rank of General and then ............................... I guess you have figured out the rest by now.


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## Myth_buster_1

What is this.. FC-20 MRCA thread turned into a wish list? 
but lol nice one Kharian_Beast
Imran bahi apni feelings ko control karoo.. 
superbikez 
you have 7 different type of combat plane including 2 super expensive bombers! whooping 200 block 30 which is really useless when we have JF-17s in many variants. how ever i would love to have 200 block 15 with less hours clocked and give them MLU M3 or M4! 
F-15's life is really close and they are starting to have all sort of technical problems, like mid air wing collapse so we dont want that to happen in combat.


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## zavis2003

All the time u people included American bombers and fighters in ur wish list . y not the Russians TU 160 . And Russia sells us Engine for JF17 y not selling SU30 Mk


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## Imran Khan

> Imran bahi apni feelings ko control karoo..



no man i am looking for 1o billons loan for all this my dream 



> And Russia sells us Engine for JF17 y not selling SU30 Mk



i think its your dream also


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## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC 
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2008 

Jane's Defence Weekly 

China deploys J-10 fighters ahead of air show

Ted Parsons, JDW Correspondent

*Two Chengdu J-10 fighter aircraft have been deployed to Zhuhai International Airport ahead of Air Show China, which begins on 4 November, in what is thought to be the first public deployment of an operational J-10 unit.* 

*The two aircraft are also unusual in that they feature in-flight refuelling probes - something not previously seen on operational J-10s*. 

Pictures of the J-10s, taken on or around 20 October, appear to show that the aircraft's refuelling probe may be detachable, indicating that this may be a longstanding capability within the J-10 force. Previous reports of this modification were confirmed in January 2007 as part of the fighter's official 'declassification' by China's television and print media. Images revealed at that time indicated that initial refuelling probe modifications date back to at least 2004. However, China is yet to release official data for the J-10 and the aircraft's internal fuel capacity remains unknown, as does its unrefuelled and refuelled range. 

Video footage from 2007 showed the J-10 connecting to the fuel hose from a modified H-6U tanker aircraft. With the H-6U also expected to feature at the Zhuhai air show, the J-10s may be set to demonstrate a refuelling manoeuvre. 

The J-10's arrival at Zhuhai illustrates the event's elevated importance for China; the People's Liberation Army Air Force is now a prominent sponsor for the show.


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## Interceptor

*China Prepares for Zhuhai Air Show*

By wendell minnick 
Published: 23 Oct 11:56 EDT (15:56 GMT)

Taipei - China is preparing for its 7th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition for Nov. 4-9 in Zhuhai, Guangdong Province, in southern China.

The government-sponsored show features exhibitors from 35 countries, including: 20 French companies - the Safran Group, Snecma and Thales; 40 Russian companies - Irkut, Rosoboronexport and Sukhoi Aviation; three from the United Kingdom - Rolls Royce; five Ukrainian companies - Antonov; and 24 U.S. companies - Boeing, GE Aviation, Rockwell Collins, Pratt & Whitney, Sikorsky and United Technologies. 

Related TopicsAsia & Pacific Rim 
Air Warfare 
More than 100 Chinese defense and aerospace companies, including government organizations, are scheduled to exhibit. The exhibition center has been renovated, which consisted of "rebuilding and decorations, including renovating all three exhibition halls, the press center, chalets and the comprehensive village," said a press release.

Show officials are expecting more than 200,000 public visitors, compared with 180,000 in 2006. The increase is due to the planned attendance of three Chinese astronauts, along with one or more of the re-entry vehicles.

China conducted its first space walk in September. It was the third manned space mission in five years. China has a stated goal of putting a space station in orbit and conducting a manned mission to the moon by 2020. 

This year, China is expected to finally display the J-10 "Vigorous Dragon" fighter. Show officials promised in 2006 to display the aircraft, but the fighter never appeared. With a delta-canard configuration, the J-10 is a single-engine, multirole fighter built by the Chengdu Aircraft Corp.

It has been the subject of much speculation since its first test flight in 1998. The Chinese media finally acknowledged its existence in 2006, despite years of reporting in the international press. Based on the Israeli-designed Lavi fighter, it is considered a competitor to Lockheed Martin's F-16 on the international arms market and a model for its stealth fighter program.

*Reportedly, Chengdu is working on a J-13 stealth fighter based on the J-10, and the Shenyang Aircraft Corp. is working on the J-12 stealth fighter based on a different design*.

Show officials would give no details on what military aircraft would be on display, but the 2006 show included 52 commercial and military aircraft, including the Hongdu L-15 Advanced Trainer, along with 10 different UAVs, including the Tianyi (Sky Wing) and Soar Dragon UAVs.

There were also new conceptual models on display, including the stealthy Anjian (Dark Sword) unmanned combat aerial vehicle. This year, helicopter deals are expected in both the commercial and military market. 

"China has become the fastest-growing market in the world" for helicopters, said a show press release, with 1,600 new helicopters to be procured by China by 2010. "Currently, there are only 400 helicopters in use in China's public service, such as police, rescue and fire control, far from being enough," said a press release.

The recent earthquake in Sichuan Province demonstrated a strong need for more helicopters.

China Prepares for Zhuhai Air Show - Defense News


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## PurpleButcher

hi!(this is my first post in a forum)


Are there any credible reports that pakistan is invovled in the j-12 or j-13 projects?


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## T-Rex

PurpleButcher said:


> hi!(this is my first post in a forum)
> 
> 
> Are there any credible reports that pakistan is invovled in the j-12 or j-13 projects?



No, there are no such reports. Sorry to disappoint you.


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## PurpleButcher

i am not at all disappointed .... keeping in mind the economic crisis pakistan is facing these days........ its rather a releif......


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## IceCold

PurpleButcher said:


> hi!(this is my first post in a forum)
> 
> 
> Are there any credible reports that pakistan is invovled in the j-12 or j-13 projects?



Pakistan is not invloved in the project as in the case of JF-17 however PAF has plans to induct FC-20 which will be a modified version of the orginal J-10.


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## PurpleButcher

we all know that fc-20/j-10 will be inferior to the j-xx..... so why are we so desperate the get our hands on the j-10......

just wait a couple of years let the jf-17 platform mature .......get its second batch ,fitted with european avionics and bvraams, operational and by that time the j-xx will be insha allah flying high in chinese skies.....

and by that time our economy wud have recovered a bit hopefully...... 

just wait and then get our hands on the j-xx


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## Myth_buster_1

PurpleButcher said:


> we all know that fc-20/j-10 will be inferior to the j-xx..... so why are we so desperate the get our hands on the j-10......
> 
> just wait a couple of years let the jf-17 platform mature .......get its second batch ,fitted with european avionics and bvraams, operational and by that time the j-xx will be insha allah flying high in chinese skies.....
> 
> and by that time our economy wud have recovered a bit hopefully......
> 
> just wait and then get our hands on the j-xx



PAF 2019 modernization plan 

so by the end of 2020 PAF should have

4th generation JF-17 block I &2 
4th Gen F-16s
4.5 gen FC-20
4.5 JF-17 block III "quite possible"
5th gen Chinese stealth fighter.


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## PurpleButcher

do we have the resources for such a modernization plan frankly speaking we are talking about Pakistan where people dont even get electricity.....

we are in a bad bad position financially speaking ..... 

i dont see that plan(despite my wishes) getting implemented


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## Myth_buster_1

PurpleButcher said:


> do we have the resources for such a modernization plan frankly speaking we are talking about Pakistan where people dont even get electricity.....
> 
> we are in a bad bad position financially speaking .....
> 
> i dont see that plan(despite my wishes) getting implemented



thats why its a "2019" plan!
11 years!

Pakistan already has a healthy defence export market, in fact it touched 300 million dollars mark this year and it could increase another 100 million next year when BD T-59 are upgraded in pakistan. PAC has a huge potential in its export market. Azerbijian has already placed 260 million dollars order for JF-17 from pakistan. Sri lank BD and many other african and asian air force are very very interusted in JF-17 so alot of orders are expected. 
US has diverted 200+ million dollars funds from WOT to F-16 MLU program and another 100 could be expected. 
oh btw. PAkistan has already singed 2 civil nuclear reactors with china and they will be finished by 2014 so it has been taken care of.. i am pretty sure the economy will be in better condition then it is now.


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## BATMAN

Hi guys, This report was published in January 2006 Janes.
Its just a reminder that Super J-10 which PAF would recieve will be a befitting match to F-16 50/52 so future of PAF will not be affected by any further US sanctions.
BTW, features like thrust vectoring are even not available in F-16.
Looking at the article date, one can expect that super J-10 would be starting its serial production any time.



> *China working on &#8216;Super-10&#8217; advanced fighter*
> HENRY IVANOV
> JDW Correspondent
> Moscow
> 
> China is developing an advanced version of the Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Corporation (CAC) J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, referred to as the Super-10, with a more powerful engine, thrust-vector control,stronger airframe and passive phased-array radar, according to Russian sources. Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG (RSK-MiG) specialists, contracted to provide technical assistance to Chinese design houses, said the enhancement to the J-10 airframe is a logical step, since the fighter was initially intended to have the compact Pratt&Whitney PW1120 engine that powered the Israeli Lavi aircraft, which served as a basis for the J-10. However, the imposition of US
> export restrictions forced the decision to install the 20 per cent heavier Russian AL-31FN engine, which requires a larger intake as it needs 40 per cent more air flow.
> The J-10 was planned to carry the Phazotron-State Scientific Research Institute of Radio (NIIR) Zhemchug radar with mechanically scanned slotted antenna: a derivative of the Zhuk series fitted to advanced MiG-29 models. While Russia supplied three units to China and assisted Chinese institutes
> working on the J-10 fire-control system, Phazotron-NIIR does not have any additional Chinese orders.
> Company officials said the Zhemchug could not be copied because designers would not have access to some of its critical components, such as various Russian-made chips that are impossible to copy.
> However, another Russian radar firm, Tikhomirov NIIP, said it had recently resumed working with China on a derivative of the Pero passive phased-array radar. The company said a developmental Pero unit was supplied to China in the late 1990s but, after a short test period, it was kept unused until recently when China restarted a joint programme with Tikhomirov NIIP.
> Pero, originally developed for the discontinued Su-30KN multirole fighter, may well have been taken as a specimen for a Super-10 radar. Tikhomirov NIIP previously worked on a scaled-down version of the Pero for the MiG-29 and such a unit could fit into a planned Super-10.
> In late 2005 China placed a USD300 million order for a second batch of AL-31FN engines; these are a derivative of the Su-27&#8217;s AL-31F for single-engine aircraft, with a lower positioning of the gearbox.
> At first, it was believed the contract was for the same engines as in the first batch of 54 units supplied in 2001-02 and installed into development prototypes and initial production J-10s. However, AL-31FN-maker Moscow Machine Production Plant (MMPP) Salyut in December 2005 revealed the order to be for theAL-31FN M1, which is claimed to be a new AL-31FN production standard.
> The company&#8217;s general manager, Yuri Eliseyev, said the new engine was purposely developed for what he referred to as the &#8220;Chinese Super-10 fighter&#8221;. Four such engines have been seen assembled at MMPP Salyut&#8217;s Moscow production site. One of these has been demonstrated undergoing fire testing, during which its swivel nozzle was deflected up/down and sideways at full power and reheated thrust.
> Eliseyev said the AL-31FN M1 differs from the original in having an enlarged fan with an inlet diameter of 924 mm instead of 902 mm.
> The increased airflow boosts the engine&#8217;s thrust at full afterburner from 27,560 lbst (122.6 kN) to 29,760 lbst (132.4 kN). It also has a swivel nozzle developed by Salyut together with St Petersburg-based Zavod imeni Klimova.
> The nozzle features the Klimov Vectored Thrust (KliVT) design earlier applied to the RD-33OVT on the MiG-29OVT vectored-thrust demonstrator. Unlike the similar Nauchno-Proizvodstvennoe Obiedinenie (NPO) Saturn design in use on the Indian Air Force Su- 30MKI multirole fighters, which deflects only in pitch, the KliVT deflects in both pitch and yaw.
> Eliseyev said the new swivel nozzle, compared to pitch-only designs, is &#8220;a lot more suitable&#8221; for single-engined aircraft, giving them the capability to remain fully controllable at extremely low speeds.


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## fatman17

PurpleButcher said:


> we all know that fc-20/j-10 will be inferior to the j-xx..... so why are we so desperate the get our hands on the j-10......
> 
> just wait a couple of years let the jf-17 platform mature .......get its second batch ,fitted with european avionics and bvraams, operational and by that time the j-xx will be insha allah flying high in chinese skies.....
> 
> and by that time our economy wud have recovered a bit hopefully......
> 
> just wait and then get our hands on the j-xx



J-xx is still on the drawing board guys. it will be a few years yet. PAF will transition to JF-17, F-16C blk50/52, FC-20 (advanced), maybe the J-11(?) before it even thinks about the J-xx.


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## zavis2003

i thing bad days are just to realize us about our abilities as 1965 71 and now economic crises. we should be united and no one INSHAHALLAH can hurt PAKISTAN the GREAT


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## Myth_buster_1

fatman17 said:


> J-xx is still on the drawing board guys. it will be a few years yet. PAF will transition to JF-17, F-16C blk50/52, FC-20 (advanced), maybe the J-11(?) before it even thinks about the J-xx.



NO! Chinese 5th generation stealth program is not just on the drawing board and i am pretty sure it has passed wind tunnel testings as one of Russian defense analyst commented that Chinese program could be ahead of Russian PAK-FA if not at the same level.


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## Luftwaffe

Hi..
We need J-10 that looks like eurofighter period! lol. It will solve almost all problems for pakistan and make all troubles for BheeIndiyans.


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## ejaz007

luftwaffe said:


> Hi..
> We need J-10 that looks like eurofighter period! lol. It will solve almost all problems for pakistan and make all troubles for BheeIndiyans.



I hope this is the case and hope you know what you are saying. By the way care to explain what do you mean.


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## Luftwaffe

i mean what everyone means a fighrer jet that carry more payload better than the current J-10 better range perform ATG ATA. DESIGN DOES MATTER. Rich with eurofighter influenced design you know what it will be capable of. Again i can't really much comment i'm junior lol. Give me some time. ty


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## gpit

A model of the Jian-10 (Fighter-10), China's homemade fighter aircraft, is seen at the exhibition hall during the 7th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in Zhuhai, south China's Guangdong Province, Nov. 4, 2008. Jian-10 is shown on the exhibition which is held from Nov. 4 to Nov. 9.(Xinhua/Zhou Wenjie) 







The Jian-10 (Fighter-10), China's homemade fighter aircraft, performs during the 7th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in Zhuhai, south China's Guangdong Province, Nov. 4, 2008. Jian-10 is shown on the exhibition which is held from Nov. 4 to Nov. 9. (Xinhua/Lu Hanxin







A model of the Jian-10 (Fighter-10), China's homemade fighter aircraft, is seen at the exhibition hall during the 7th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in Zhuhai, south China's Guangdong Province, Nov. 4, 2008. Jian-10 is shown on the exhibition which is held from Nov. 4 to Nov. 9.(Xinhua/Zhou Wenjie)

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## TOPGUN

Looks beautyful!!


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## gpit

Single J10 performance in Zhuhai Air Show: near vertical climbing and more...

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## gpit

BTW, according to other source, the runway length in the above video clip is 250 meters.


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## Neo

gpit said:


> BTW, according to other source, the runway length in the above video clip is 250 meters.



Great video mate, thanks for sharing!
250m? Wow...I guess the canards give the aircraft a STOL capability.


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## Munir

PAF team ready to test J10...

http://trishulgroup.blogspot.com/200...pressions.html
The on-going aerospace expo in Zhuhai from November 4 to 8 will be remembered for the sheer new types of UAVs, UCAVs and air defence systems&#8212;all indigenous&#8212;that have been unveiled by China&#8217;s gigantic military-industrial complex. No less than three new types of MALE UAVs and an equal number of MALE/HALE UCAVs were showcased at the expo. The most interesting exhibits&#8212;however&#8212;the indigenous J-10A medium multi-role combat aircraft now in series-production at Chengdu Aircraft Corp&#8217;s (CAC) facilities in Chengdu; and scale-models displayed by Russia&#8217;s Rosoboronexport State Corp/Sukhoi Aircraft Corp of the Su-35MKK and Su-33MKK heavy multi-role combat aircraft that are due to be acquired by the PLA Air Force and the PLA Navy in the near future. Present plans of the PLA Air Force call for the acquisition of 38 Su-35MKKs whose primary armaments package will include Novator&#8217;s KS-172 long-range air combat missile as well as the Yakhont multi-role supersonic cruise missile from NPO Mashinostroineyie. Interestingly, the Yakhonts will be upgraded will an all-digital navigation-and-guidance system developed by Russia&#8217;s JSC Konstern Avionika. Therefore, it is now a distinct possibility that the Yakhont-equipped Su-35MKKs will become operational much earlier than the BrahMos-equipped Su-30MKI. The Yakhonts will also be on board the Su-33MKKs, eight of which are on the verge of being ordered by the PLA Navy. These aircraft will also be armed with the 220km-range C-705 subsonic anti-ship cruise missile, which was unveiled by CPMIEC at Airshow China 2008 and which bears a close resemblance to the Novator-built 3M14E Club. The Su-33MKKs will be based at a newly upgraded air base in Inner Mongolia, where a land-based ski-ramp was recently commissioned by the PLA Navy for imparting flying training to the Su-33MKK aircrew. 


The J-10A, two of which are giving daily flying displays, will be joined by a tandem-seat J-10B at Chengdu after the conclusion of the expo and these three aircraft will be evaluated by a seven-member team of test-pilots and ground crew hailing from the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), which has already confirmed its intention to procure an initial 34 J-10As and four J-10Bs. The PAF will designate this aircraft-type as the FC-20. The J-10As showcased at Zhuhai are equipped with a comprehensive defensive aids-suite comprising radar warning receivers, missile approach warning system, an internal EW jammer, as well as a SATCOM system used for both communications as well as navigation. In fact, the on-going deployment of the &#8216;Beidou&#8217; regional constellation of GPS navigation satellites by China has resulted in both the PLA Navy and PLA Air Force beginning to induct in large numbers a variety of GPS-guided precision-guided munitions, including the FT-3 and FT-5 small diameter bombs, LT-3 PGM, and LS-3 glide bomb. Needless to say, such PGMs will also be specified by the PAF for its FC-20s

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## Munir

Neo said:


> Great video mate, thanks for sharing!
> 250m? Wow...I guess the canards give the aircraft a STOL capability.



Well, getting in the air was just 10 seconds. Pretty much something I need to study on. But the landing is surely not short... Not sure how fast the speed decreased.


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## Munir

I checked F22 video... Less impressive. It takes a longer run to get i the air. Then it takes some time to increasy speed before getting vertical and een then less impressive.

Not that J10 is superior but it still shows that it is very impressive in thrust-weight...


F15...

http://video.google.com/videosearch...o&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wv&start=10

14 seconds...

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## Quwa

This is just J-10A's physical performance, to the PLAAF it probably isn't a big deal given that the J-10B should be entering production soon! The J-10B will have lower RCS, stronger engine with possible TVC, further aerodynamic improvements and much better avionics, ECM/EW and plans for AESA radar! The only wildcard would be supercruise...most are unsure if J-10B will have this...


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## fatman17

*after the conclusion of the expo and these three aircraft will be evaluated by a seven-member team of test-pilots and ground crew hailing from the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), which has already confirmed its intention to procure an initial 34 J-10As and four J-10Bs.*

sources in the PAF as well as JDW clearly indicate that no clear negotiations or MoU of any kind has taken place / signed regarding the acquisition of the J-10A/FC-20 and will not in the forseeable future.

certainly the PAF may have sent test-pilots for initial evaluation of the current J-10A.


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## Munir

I do not think there is any haste to getting it. They can get it but why going the same route as JF17. PAF needs to optimize JF17 first and if that is going well they will shift to newer version with better avionics. The plane is just fine. Certainly if they can have the semi stealth version with internal bay... In that the Indians will have to rethink their entire airforce. Here they are prssing our nose with 200+ MKI and out_of_the_coffin_ready_to_kill_f22_Bison and now they have to face a stealth plane...

Seems to be the same investment for them as defending against Babur... To costly to execute.


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## was

YouTube - j-10 flying


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## Imran Khan

nice j-10 man its take off like rocket.but camera is not good to cacth that


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## Quwa

The PAF is probably waiting for the J-10B, which has yet to be put into PLAAF service (officially)...but it would be wrong to say that there are no negotiations. Please remember that the J-10B has not been disclosed, hence the PAF cannot say it is negotiating for a fighter that officially does not exist. This fighter will be our true weapon...it will surpass the J-10A in physical performance; house EF/Rafale-generation ECM/EW, avionics; AESA radar; Meteor & IRIS-T-generation weapons; TVC and maybe even supercruise.

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## HAIDER

> The J-10A, two of which are giving daily flying displays, will be joined by a tandem-seat J-10B at Chengdu after the conclusion of the expo and these three aircraft will be evaluated by a seven-member team of test-pilots and ground crew hailing from the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), which has already confirmed its intention to procure an initial 34 J-10As and four J-10Bs. The PAF will designate this aircraft-type as the FC-20. The J-10As showcased at Zhuhai are equipped with a comprehensive defensive aids-suite comprising radar warning receivers, missile approach warning system, an internal EW jammer, as well as a SATCOM system used for both communications as well as navigation. In fact, the on-going deployment of the Beidou regional constellation of GPS navigation satellites by China has resulted in both the PLA Navy and PLA Air Force beginning to induct in large numbers a variety of GPS-guided precision-guided munitions, including the FT-3 and FT-5 small diameter bombs, LT-3 PGM, and LS-3 glide bomb. Needless to say, such PGMs will also be specified by the PAF for its FC-20s.Prasun K. Sengupta


TRISHUL: Airshow China 2008: First Impressions


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## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> The PAF is probably waiting for the J-10B, which has yet to be put into PLAAF service (officially)...but it would be wrong to say that there are no negotiations. Please remember that the J-10B has not been disclosed, hence the PAF cannot say it is negotiating for a fighter that officially does not exist. This fighter will be our true weapon...it will surpass the J-10A in physical performance; house EF/Rafale-generation ECM/EW, avionics; AESA radar; Meteor & IRIS-T-generation weapons; TVC and maybe even supercruise.



MS,
I respect your information sharing but unless we dont get any concrete evidence, this could be just wishful thinking!


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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> MS,
> I respect your information sharing but unless we dont get any concrete evidence, this could be just wishful thinking!


Sir, the information you get on Janes is fairly limited in scope when looking at Chinese projects. If you wish to study the PLA and its weapons development, then you'll need to go straight to Chinese evidence. The bulk of my information comes from the following blog that basically translates Chinese defence sources: http://china-pla.blogspot.com/

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## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> Sir, the information you get on Janes is fairly limited in scope when looking at Chinese projects. If you wish to study the PLA and its weapons development, then you'll need to go straight to Chinese evidence. The bulk of my information comes from the following blog that basically translates Chinese defence sources: China Air and Naval Power



yes and no. as china opens up to the world, information about their military progress is quite evident from the 3 or 4 JDW articles i have recently posted in TT section and Chinese military section.
thanks,


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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> yes and no. as china opens up to the world, information about their military progress is quite evident from the 3 or 4 JDW articles i have recently posted in TT section and Chinese military section.
> thanks,


Problem is that until the PLA officially discloses its hardware, JDW falls into the stream of speculatative thought that I brought...because it relies on the same sources. What JDW termed as "Super-10" back a few years ago is essentially the J-10B, though the J-10B is less radical in terms of stealthiness.


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## Pk_Thunder

Guys Watch out this video

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## Black Stone

Nice video, pretty impressive manoeuvers.


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## araz

THUNDER777 said:


> Guys Watch out this video
> Xk5uBXBS-Js[/media] - J-10 by Ralph Losemann at Jetpower 2008



good moves from a nicely made demo.I wish the real one could do the moves though!!!
Araz


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## Pk_Thunder

araz said:


> good moves from a nicely made demo.I wish the real one could do the moves though!!!
> Araz



So as i wish sir....this bird with stealthy features would become one of the deadliest jet around the globe....i havent seen such monueverability yet except that of f22 raptor...though j10 cant match f16 block 52 at this point of time but one should remain optimistic about its development...lets see when the chinese will incorporate AESA in j10...


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## Kharian_Beast

I had to watch that twice to figure out it was a model...


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## Myth_buster_1

FlightGlobal

China is likely to accelerate the modernisation of its fighter fleet over the next decade, and is looking to induct additional indigenous aircraft and order new types from Russia.

Beijing's Chengdu J-10 fighter was displayed publicly for the first time earlier this month at Airshow China 2008 in Zhuhai, where Chinese officials indicated that it would also develop new versions of the type. A B-model aircraft has already been proposed, *with this to have a thrust-vectoring engine and an active electronically scanned array radar.*
"The J-10 has been identified as the backbone of the Chinese air force. They will continue to increase the production rate and improve on the earlier version," says one observer. China has never revealed how many J-10s have entered service since 2006, but industry sources speculate that more than 100 have been produced from an eventual requirement for around 300.

A naval version of the J-10 is also on the cards, with sources saying that China hopes to get its aircraft carrier programme up and running in the next decade. But with an indigenous naval fighter expected to take too long to develop, China is reportedly negotiating with Russia's Rosoboronexport arms agency for an interim batch of 48 Sukhoi Su-33 fighters.

*China has also shown interest in the Su-35, but could first place a significant order for Chengdu's FC-1/JF-17 fighter, which was jointly developed with Pakistan*. Concurrently, Beijing is pursing several highly secretive studies to develop a stealthy fifth-generation fighter, and is also reportedly developing a stealth bomber, various unmanned air vehicles and indigenous powerplants.

Meanwhile, the air force's first cadre of eight pilots to graduate from the Chinese Flight Test Establishment finished their two-year course in mid-November, with each having received instruction on seven aircraft types and logged almost 1,000 sorties


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## araz

THUNDER777 said:


> So as i wish sir....this bird with stealthy features would become one of the deadliest jet around the globe....i havent seen such monueverability yet except that of f22 raptor...though j10 cant match f16 block 52 at this point of time but one should remain optimistic about its development...lets see when the chinese will incorporate AESA in j10...



Thunder
F16 backed up by the American techno giant took 3 decades to evolve into its present form after induction. Give J10 some time. It will evolve too. 
regards
Araz

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## Muradk

manoeuvers between 2:41 to 3:00 will put the pilot to sleep for good. too much gs positive and negative. But very impressive.


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## Jliu

Keysersoze said:


> This might help a bit.....
> 
> Elta EL/M-2035 Multi-Mode Pulse Doppler Radar
> 
> The Elta EL/M-2035 multi-mode pulse-Doppler radar was a development of the Elta EL/M-2021B multi-mode Doppler radar of the IAI Kfir-C2. The radar was very advanced and had a coherent transmitter and a stable multi-channel receiver for reliable look-down performance over a broad band of frequencies and for high resolution mapping. An Elta programmable signal processor, backed by a distributed, embedded computer network, would provide optimum allocation of computing power and great flexibility for growth and the updating of algorithims and systems growth.
> 
> The radar could provide speed and position of targets in the air and on the ground, and could provide the pilot with a map of the terrain the Lavi was overflying. It could track several targets at 46 km distance in at least five air-to-air modes (automatic target aquisition, boresight, look down, look up and track while scan (TWS)). The radar had at least two air-to-ground modes (beam-sharpened ground mapping/terrain avoidance and sea search). After the cancellation of the Lavi programme the radar was offered for multi-role fighter retrofits, including the Denel Cheetah E.
> 
> Lavi (www.combatsim.com)
> 
> Another candidate is the Chinese version of the Israeli Elta EL/M-2035 multimode pulse Doppler fire control radar based on the original development by Elta Electronics Industries - a subsidiary of Israel Aircraft Industries Electronics Group. This radar is used on the South African Denel (Atlas) "Cheetah" fighter - a development of the Dassault "Mirage III". The Elta EL/M-2035 radar is based on the 2021B version used by the IAI Kfir-C2 fighter. The radar offers a range of 46km for a 5 m2 RCS target, five air-to-air modes (automatic target acquisition, boresight, look-down, look-up, and track-while-scan) and two air-to-ground modes (beam-sharpened ground mapping and terrain avoidance and sea-search). Originally the Elta EL/M-2035 was developed for the "Lavi" program and after the program's cancellation the radar was offered for export.
> 
> MILAVIA - Aircraft - Chengdu J-10



Sources vary but some IAF Mig-21BM have emissions that fit the EL/M-2035v(2) profile which is their latest offering as does at least one Mig-29 (testbed?). The Chinese have their hands on the Elta EL/M-2021B and possibly the EL/M-2035v(1) or some other pre-2035 derivative since the J-10A's signatures all resemble known profiles. I would not discount a Chinese knockoff of the v(1) fitted to current versions.


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## Munir

Originally Posted by xsu
This is an interview of Senior Colonel Lei Qiang, chief test pilot of J-10. The pilots that flew J-10 in Zhu hai air show are his student and student of student.

Interesting points in the article.
1. J-10 project started in the mid 80's with no specific name, only called "3rd gen fighter" or "New fighter". 

2. When they first started selecting perspective test pilots, only fighter in China that had HUD was J-7M. So they used a Yes/No test to screen them. That is, each person was given 0.3 second to view a HUD image, and determine if it's correct, and they had to identify 100 pictures in a row with no mistake to pass. Lei Qiang was the first to pass, second was Lu Jun, third was a staff officer from an airbase. 

3. The three were later sent to Israel to fly LAVI simulator in 1986, 

4. They formed a 19 member test pilot team, of the 19, 9 were selected as "first batch test pilot" group, participating fully in the design process. Then 5 of the 9 formed the chief test pilot group for the actual test flight.

5. Lei Qiang and Lu Jun were sent to Russian in 1993 for test pilot training, practicing tail spin and Su27/30. But Lu Jun later died in an accident, so Lei Qiang was the only one flying the entire test flight phase.

6. The change of J-10's landing gear door from two piece to three piece were Lei Qiang's suggestion.

7. Lei Qiang flew tail spin recovery in Russia to familiarize with triangle wing tail spin recovery, then on Su27 to familiarize with 3rd gen fighter operation

8. The shape of control sticks, placement and function of buttons on the stick and around the displays are the work of test pilots.

9. Lei Qiang first saw the full scale wooden mock up of J-10 around 1990

10. He helped to determine placement of instruments, canopy opening, feedback on the stick, controls on electric switch, engines, etc.

11. Lei Qiang first met Israeli scientists in 1984, as part of test program for firing PL-8 on J-7. Firing PL-8 will cause J-7 to roll sideway 40 degrees, and if pilot compensate right away, the smoke from missile to stop the engine.

12. Lei Qiang had NO EXPERIENCE FIRING MISSILES in 1984?! (Shocking, isn't it.) He didn't know to compensate for the roll right away, but that's how his engine didn't stop from the smoke. And that's the solution they decided on, so when PLAAF J-7 fires a PL-8, the force from the launch will cause the plane to roll, and the pilots are instructed to not compensate for 2 seconds. (Another typical PLA non-technical solution to a very technical problem)

13. From this experience, Israelis told Chinese that their plane sucks, and Israel has something far better. (Guess that's how they wind up going to Israel to fly the Lavi simulator)

14. When they first started designing the J-10, neither the designer nor the pilots can conceptually grasps the operation of FBW system.

15. 60&#37; of the technology used on J-10 are new.

16. Lei Qiang's first real experience on a FBW aircraft is on a British converted LearJet in 1995. There he experienced what PIO could be like.

17. When conducting high speed taxi test, they almost could not test lifting up the front wheel because CAC's runway is too short. 

18. Lei Qiang did flight demonstration of J-10 to foreign guests, and probably did a tail slide then going directly into a vertical climb. Exact wording are: After vertical climb and turn, I did not turn on afterburner right away and accelerate vertically, instead allowed aircraft to drop slightly before turning on afterburner. 

19. The first flight of J-10 were done in unstable configuration.

20. First flight were in 1998, march 23rd

21. During first flight, the responsiveness of J-10 so surprised lei Qiang that he shouted, "WTF!"

22. J-10's instantaneous roll rate is more than 200 degrees/sec.

23. During the first two years of J-10's test flight, Lei Qiang was the only test pilot! (another shocker and WTF, what if he crashed and died or injured? The whole project could have died)

24. 04 prototype tested a new engine. 05 prototype was testing domestication. (What does this mean? J-10 wasn't domestic up to that point?)

25. To train to be a test pilot, Lei Qiang had went to Israel, Russia, UK, Sweden and Egypt for training, Russia for 5 times.

26. J-10 is not a copy of Lavi. Israelis taught them how to design aircraft, such as using computer for design, simulation and analysis.

27. Israelis saw J-10 taking off with full external load. (Wonder when did that happen)

28. Maximum sustained turning G load for J-10 is 8.9. Lei Qiang flew it starting at Mach 1.2, 1000 meter, full afterburn. Speed dropped to Mach 0.6 after a while. (I guess they aren't kidding when they say triangle wing bleed energy during tight turn) Lei Qiang was 48 at the time, seemed to have broken a record for highest age and longest time flying at 8.9G.

29. J-10 was transfered to flight test academy after 05 prototype flew.

30. 01 prototype flew to academy on a lot of internal fuel (I'm guessing full internal) and drop tanks. After arriving at Xian, he still had more than 1 hour of fuel left before reaching landing weight.

31. J-10's turning radius is much, much smaller than J-7. J-7 seems to take 30 seconds to complete a full turn.

32. According to Lei Qiang, F-16's horizontal turning capability doesn't measure up to J-10. J-10's vertical turning capability is even with F-16. Su-27's vertical maneuver capability is stronger than J-10 because it has higher T/W ratio. Horizontal turning is even. But rolling rate J-10 is much better. At Mach 1.2, Su-27 has roll rate of 20-30 degrees/sec,(this has to be a mistake) while J-10 has more than 200 degrees/sec. 

33. According to Lei Qiang, J-10's instrument is better than F-16 (although this is probably only true compared with Pakistan's F-16A) and much superior to Su-27.

34. J-10 can perform the Cobra maneuver, up to 160 degrees . (This would be a sight to see if it's true)

Source: http://www.china-defense.com/forum/i...5&gopid=95295& (post: 2233)

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## Black Stone

> so surprised lei Qiang that he shouted, "WTF!"



Did he say that in English or in Mandarin?.


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## fatman17

Black Stone said:


> Did he say that in English or in Mandarin?.



or punjabi!!!


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## Munir

according to wmf, EW version of J-10 (EJ-10?) enter service last september.according to the article the aircraft provide standoff jamming similiar to EF-18G.
it is more likely that this specialized version compatible to F-16CJ,wild weisel type SAM suppression aircraft rather than escort jammer.


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## Super Falcon

i hope now pakistan might ask china to give pak J10 very Quickly after growing tensions between india and pakistan


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## Owais

Super Falcon said:


> i hope now pakistan might ask china to give pak J10 very Quickly after growing tensions between india and pakistan



I think PAF is waiting until they will get their hand on F16 Blk52+. after getting these block52s, they will modify J10 which will result in something better than block 52+


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## Super Falcon

pakistan still havent got modified Block 52 of F16 i heared that 4 of f16 pakistan got from usa if it is wrong when do pakistan be getting F16 and what type of radar J 10 have. and does it have 360 degree versitile i mean it is be better versit ile bird than F 16 or it will be BVR Missile system


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## Super Falcon

The J-10 (Jian 10 or Fighter 10) is China's indigenously built multi-role fighter aircraft developed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry. Chengdu Aircraft Industry is part of the China Aviation Industry Corporation I (AVIC I). In the west the J-10 aircraft is known as the Vigorous Dragon.

It is estimated that up to 300 J-10 fighter aircraft will be manufactured. China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) includes the army, navy, air force and Strategic Rocket Force. The Air Force (AFPLA) has 200 fighter and fighter ground attack squadrons and 120 strike fighter squadrons.

"The J-10 (Jian 10 or Fighter 10) is China's indigenously built multi-role fighter aircraft."The J-10 aircraft is considered as a replacement for the J-7 and Q-5. The Air Force currently operates about 250 J-7 (MiG-21) air defence and attack aircraft and about 500 Q-5 attack aircraft.

China formally announced the J-10 in February 2007. The existence of the J-10 was first reported in 1994, but the J-10 program was started in 1988 and the first flight of the single seat aircraft took place in 1998. A two-seater variant made its first flight in 2003.

There are reports that the J-10 entered service in 2005 and is operational in single seater and two seater versions in at least two PLA Air Force squadrons. It has also been reported that Pakistan will receive the first export versions of the J-10, up to 36 aircraft, by around 2010. China and Pakistan have worked closely on the development of another fighter aircraft, the JF-17 or FC-1 light fighter aircraft.

J-10 DESIGN
The structure of the aircraft is based on a tail-less delta (triangular planform) wing, foreplanes and a sweptback vertical tail. There are two, fixed, outwardly canted ventral (on the underside of the body) fins near the tail. The size and design of the J-10 are very similar to that of the Israeli Aircraft Industries Lavi fighter aircraft, which itself is similar to and derived technology from the USAF F-16 aircraft.

The horizontal close-coupled foreplanes (larger than those on the Lavi) on the forward fuselage improve the take-off and low speed handling characteristics.

WEAPONS
The J-10 has 11 external hardpoints: five hardpoints on the fuselage with one on the centreline and a pair of hardpoints on each side of the fuselage, and three hardpoints on each wing.

The outer wing stations carry air-to-air missiles such as the Chinese built Python 3 PL-8, P-11 or PL-12 or the Russian Vympel R-73 (AA-11 'Archer') or R-77 (AA-12 'Adder).

The PL-8 infrared homing short-range air-to-air missile is manufactured in China under a licensed production agreement by the China Academy (formerly the Luoyang Electro-optics Technology Development Centre) and is a variant of the Israeli Python 3 missile. The PL-11 is a licensed-manufactured variant of the MBDA Italy Aspide medium-range air-to-air missile.

The PL-12 missile is manufactured in China under a collaborative agreement with Russia. It uses the Russian AA-12 Adder missile technology configured with a Chinese-developed rocket motor to give a range of 50 miles and speed of Mach 4.

"In the west the J-10 aircraft is known as the Vigorous Dragon."The aircraft can be armed with laser-guided bombs, the anti-ship YJ-8K or C-801K solid rocket powered missiles, the C-802 land attack and anti-ship turbojet-powered missiles manufactured by CHETA, and the YJ-9 anti-radiation missile. A 23mm cannon is installed internally on the port side of the forward section of the fuselage above the nosewheel.

SENSORS
The aircraft could be fitted with a forward looking infrared and laser target designator pod. The China Aviation Industry Corporation I (AVIC I ) has displayed an exhibition model of the J-10 fitted with targeting pods, which would provide the capability of the J-10 to deploy laser and satellite navigation guided weapons.

Possible pulse Doppler radar fits include the Chinese Type 1473 radar, Russian Phazotron Zhuk-10PD or Zhemchug, the Chinese JL-10A, the Israeli IAI Elta EL/M-2023 or the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo 2000.

COCKPIT
The single seat fighter aircraft is also being developed in a two-seat variant as a trainer aircraft and as an electronic warfare aircraft. The first flight of the two-seat variant was completed in 2003. The cockpit is fitted with a zero-zero ejection seat.

The aircraft has a digital fly-by-wire flight control system and HOTAS Hands-On Throttle And Stick control on which the pilot has every control for combat incorporated into the two handholds.

Cockpit displays include a helmet-mounted weapon sight, a wide field of view head-up display and one full-colour and two monochrome liquid crystal multi-function displays. The avionics is served by a 1553B databus.

ENGINE
The aircraft is powered by the AL-31 turbojet engine supplied by Saturn Lyulka. The prototype aircraft and the first series of production aircraft are fitted with the AL-31FN developing 79kN and 123kN with afterburn, and which is the currently used in the Chinese Air Force Su-27 and Su-30 aircraft.

The more highly powered and advanced variant of the J-10, the Super-10, first reported in 2006, is fitted with the AL-31FN M1 supplied by Salyut. The AL-31FN M1 provides 132.5kN and is equipped with full authority digital engine control and a four-way swivelling exhaust nozzle for vectored thrust.

"It is estimated that up to 300 J-10 fighter aircraft will be manufactured."The aircraft carries a maximum of 4,950l of fuel internally, comprising 3,180l in the wing tanks and 1,770l in the fuselage tanks. A fixed refuelling probe for in-flight refuelling is installed halfway up the forward port side of the fuselage and just forward of the pilot. Aerial refuelling of the J-10 is from a Xian H-6U tanker aircraft.

Additional fuel can be carried in auxiliary tanks on the centreline under the fuselage and on the innermost pair of the three sets of wing hardpoints.

LANDING GEAR
The aircraft is equipped with tricycle-type landing gear. The nose unit has twin heels and retracts rearwards and the main units retract forward. The aircraft has a drogue parachute for landing.


Expand Image
The J-10 (Jian 10 or Fighter 10) is China's indigenously built multi-role fighter aircraft.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Expand Image
It is estimated that China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) has a requirement for up to 300 J-10 fighter aircraft to replace J-7 and Q-5 aircraft.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Expand Image
The J-10 has 11 external hardpoints for weapons and fuel tanks &#8211; five on the fuselage (one on the centreline and a pair on each side of the fuselage) and three hardpoints on each wing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Expand Image
The J-10 has a maximum speed of Mach 1.9 and a combat range of 550km.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Expand Image
The J-10 fitted with external fuel tanks and the PL-8 short range air-to-air missile, which is a variant of the Rafael Python 3 missile manufactured under licence in China.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Expand Image
The horizontal close-coupled foreplanes on the forward fuselage improve the take-off and low-speed handling characteristics of the J-10.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Expand Image
The J-10 is powered by one AL-31FN turbojet engine. The more advanced J-10 Super 10 has AL-31FN engine with thrust-vectoring nozzle.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## ahussains

What are the Chances of J10 in PAF .... How long the take to inducted in PAF


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## Imran Khan

ahussains said:


> What are the Chances of J10 in PAF .... How long the take to inducted in PAF



next year i hope they fly in pakistan in case late 2010 they must be here


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## Kharian_Beast

Probably start off with 36 J10A and B with options for more. My estimate is that the first squadron will be operational by late 2010 although I could be wrong.


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## Super Falcon

is it is betterf than f 16 and it can be refuled from IL 78


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## araz

My own take is that PAF will wait till the cofiguration of J10 is just as it wants. The J10 announcement may have been in connection with sending a message to USA that we have readily available options should you try anything funny AGAIN!!. If PAF starts getting F16s delivered in time, it will probably order 2010 for 2012-13 deployment of the much reported B version with all the advances from Block 52 incorporated ala west/chinese/local ventures. If not then we will buy j10 in current configuration to keep numbers up and change avionics/ warfare suite as available.
I think it makes sense both to keep pressure up on both the parties so that we get the best bang for the buck. Buying J10 prematurely in a configuraton PAF is not entirely happy with will be a last ditch stand.
My 2 paisas worth.
Araz

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## Nishan_101

Does blk-52's have composite airframe like J-10's or not or blk-60's have and i think blk-70's may have


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## Anwar2

BLK-52 is the same plain vanilla aluminum airframe. Block-60 is a needlessly expensive "fuel truck" with conformal tanks and AESA. The downside with Blk-52 is that they cannot be used against India, or the US will pull the carpet under our feet.


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## Hayreddin

I THINK we should forget F16s n concentrate on J10 n other options


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## araz

ahmed said:


> I THINK we should forget F16s n concentrate on J10 n other options



Wisful thinking. Technologically F16s are still more advanced and a mature platfom. If you see the ACM latest interview and his comments about J10 you will understand PAFs concerns about the plane>also take a look at the order No. and realize what PAF is doing making an order of 18 only.
Hope you understand.
Araz


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## Kharian_Beast

^ Agreed that F-16 is more mature and capable platform. But isn't J-10 cheaper/being sold by a trustworthy ally? Can the cost benefit analysis hold sway for acquiring many J-10 with no strings compared to very few F-16 with more strings than a cobweb?


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## IceCold

Kharian_Beast said:


> ^ Agreed that F-16 is more mature and capable platform. But isn't J-10 cheaper/being sold by a trustworthy ally? Can the cost benefit analysis hold sway for acquiring many J-10 with no strings compared to very few F-16 with more strings than a cobweb?



J-10 is cheaper but dont forget that the F-16s that we are getting will add punch to its value and PAF was not able to afford a different platform of the same caliber as the F-16s will be block 52 that is. Its is however sad that they do have many strings attacked to them but then again lets not jump to conclusion here, lets wait and see. For now everything seems to be right on track.


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## Kharian_Beast

Any word on the current situation of the Block 52 deal? I am happy that we will get JDAM and possibly IRIS-T, but I heard this package is to cost 5.1 billion USD ? 

Because that's a lot of money, we could probably buy 150 J10 +missiles + logistics + training with that amount not to mention possible ToT...


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## Kharian_Beast

Somehow to me the combination of F-16 + Zardari is not something worth pursuing...


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## TOPGUN

We need f-16 lets see wat happens the PAF high command is not crazy to want it for no reason. One can say lets not hope for the history to repeat its self again as far as platform and everything else f-16 is wat we need if we can get the order !!


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## araz

Kharian_Beast said:


> ^ Agreed that F-16 is more mature and capable platform. But isn't J-10 cheaper/being sold by a trustworthy ally? Can the cost benefit analysis hold sway for acquiring many J-10 with no strings compared to very few F-16 with more strings than a cobweb?



Kharian Beast. 
You are referring to a quality versus number argument. what I am referring to is a more subtle approach ,ie buy a few to see whats in them and do the rest your self. i have alluded to it in my earlier post but probably got missed out. Also once the cat is out of the bag, and in PAFs hands, subsequent embargoes become irrelevantThis is a scenario, which need not be gotten into if we get equal value or better toys from elsewhere. Even then, we will have to argue using the security of a delivered order from US!!! I hope you understand now!
WaSalam
Araz

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## Super Falcon

why not we go for rafale why we need same f 16 yes f 16 is good without any doubt but we need to be going forward look at iaf they will get EF200 pak-fa and su 30
and where we are same old crap we need rafale+J10 and 20 to 25 f 16 thats all


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## Imran Khan

> why not we go for rafale



see unit cost of refale thats why IAF never go refale


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## Owais

Robotech said:


> With 60 Million a Price, 126 will and can come under 10-12 Billion program



$60million price of rafale?? man this is not some Russian toy! the unit cost of this elephant is approx $65million so it will have a price tag of about $75-80million and if you include training, support and maintenance, the price would be *$90million* per piece


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## Imran Khan

its total cost including traning parts systems jets and much more needs for opraete them will be realy 90mn$ per unit its not car you buy and drive see only wapens system of each cost moere then 10mn$


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## Nihat

imran khan said:


> its total cost including traning parts systems jets and much more needs for opraete them will be realy 90mn$ per unit its not car you buy and drive see only wapens system of each cost moere then 10mn$



that still comes to round about $12.5 billion - good enough . also Imran I have not taken into account that price per unit will come down when serial production is increased.

Any further clarification , pls mention on MRCA thread , this one is for J-10 I think


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## araz

Super Falcon said:


> why not we go for rafale why we need same f 16 yes f 16 is good without any doubt but we need to be going forward look at iaf they will get EF200 pak-fa and su 30
> and where we are same old crap we need rafale+J10 and 20 to 25 f 16 thats all



You have to understand that planes cannot just be bought like cars. there are issues with maintenance and other ongoing care taking. then a certain number of spares have to be kept. So in short a whole infrastructure needs to be built up before you can bu a plane and that doubles/triples the price of a plane during its life . then there are issues with regards to weapons integration and commonality. F16 was and is the most sensible deal for Pakistan. even if it had not materialized i doubt if Rafale would have been bought by PAF. Perhaps Gripen but even then PAF might have concentrated on developing Thunder a bit more.
I hope it helps.
waSalam
Araz


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## Imran Khan

Nihat said:


> that still comes to round about $12.5 billion - good enough . also Imran I have not taken into account that price per unit will come down when serial production is increased.
> 
> Any further clarification , pls mention on MRCA thread , this one is for J-10 I think



so whats india wait from 5 years go ahed we also looking what they select and what we buy for counter.but india is stop on first step from 5 years just they every day say MRCA MRCA .


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## nitesh

imran khan said:


> so whats india wait from 5 years go ahed we also looking what they select and what we buy for counter.but india is stop on first step from 5 years just they every day say MRCA MRCA .



Are baba do you buy based on your requirement or according to Indian requirement? The MRCA was supposed to be Mirage 2000 with the assembly line getting transferred but unfortunately that hadn't happened (main reason were the sanctions and shortage of money ). Then finally it has came out the field evaluation will begine on first quarter (Jan to Mar) then IAF will submit it's recommendations in 2-3 months. Then let's see how the political leadership takes it to conclusion

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## All-Green

Is the 36 J-10 order for 2009 finalized or we may expect delays/problems due to payment issues in wake of recent economic situation?
Also can anyone confirm whether Pakistan has ever shown any interest to enter into co production of J-10 in the future?


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## jamal18

All-Green said:


> Is the 36 J-10 order for 2009 finalized or we may expect delays/problems due to payment issues in wake of recent economic situation?
> Also can anyone confirm whether Pakistan has ever shown any interest to enter into co production of J-10 in the future?



I have heard a quote from a defence exhibition in which it was said that pakistan had no industrial interest in the j-10.


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## wangrong

All-Green said:


> Is the 36 J-10 order for 2009 finalized or we may expect delays/problems due to payment issues in wake of recent economic situation?
> Also can anyone confirm whether Pakistan has ever shown any interest to enter into co production of J-10 in the future?



1&#12289;Because Sichuan Earthquake*&#65288;2008/05/12&#65289;*
May be We can deliver more JF17 in 2008(+8)&#65292;I think we can produce 20 + JF17s a year.

2&#12289;Pakistan should first establish an early warning system, this is more important than the J10

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## All-Green

wangrong said:


> 1&#12289;Because Sichuan Earthquake*&#65288;2008/05/12&#65289;*
> May be We can deliver more JF17 in 2008(+8)&#65292;I think we can produce 20 + JF17s a year.
> 
> 2&#12289;Pakistan should first establish an early warning system, this is more important than the J10



Thanks jamal18 and wangrong, my concern was that since J-10 has been in service with PLAAF it would be prudent to expedite delivery or at least ensure timely delivery since it is more mature platform than thunder and will be combat ready with PAF in lesser time...hopefully.
With the way things are PAF needs to acquire combat ready aircraft and i do believe thunder will take a few years to be properly inducted.
Any chance PAF pilots are already being familiarized with the J-10 in china?


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## notorious_eagle

You can expect deliveries of J10B(which is an advanced version of J10), in early 2009. To be exact, i think we should be getting the deliveries in March or April.


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## IceCold

notorious_eagle said:


> You can expect deliveries of J10B(which is an advanced version of J10), in early 2009. To be exact, i think we should be getting the deliveries in March or April.



Are you sure on this one? Also according to sinodefence and wiki, J-10b is nothing but a twin seater version of the J-10. So where are we going with this one?


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## IceCold

Kharian_Beast said:


> 2 seater is J-10S. Wikipedia is a crock of nonsense, I doubt sinodefence made that mistake.



Here is another link:

Electronic Aviation - Chengdu J-10 - J-10B Fighter-Trainer


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## notorious_eagle

IceCold said:


> Are you sure on this one? Also according to sinodefence and wiki, J-10b is nothing but a twin seater version of the J-10. So where are we going with this one?



J10S is the twin seater; J10B is an improved version of J10A with extremely high thrust vector and maneuverability. We really dont have enough official info on J10b because the Chinese are very secretive but i have managed to find some info:

THE J-10B IS A HUGE UPGRADE OF THE J-10A WITH FEATURES SUCH AS: 
- Thrust-vector control 
- Extremely-high maneuverability
- Stealth DSI intakes 
- More hardpoints
- AESA radar
- MUCH MUCH MORE 

It entered service in 2007.

The J-10B lies on a WHOLE NEW GENERATION than the J-10A. It is much superior to the F-15 Eagle and the Eurofighter Typhoon. Pakistan will use the J-10B (which they call it the FC-20) and they said it was as good as a 5TH-GENERATION FIGHTER.

SPECIFICATIONS (J-10A):
- Speed: Mach 2.2
- g-limits: +9/-3 g (+88/-29 m/sÂ², +290/-97 ft/sÂ²)
- Combat radius: 2,540 km (1,370 mi) 
- Range (without refuelling): 3,400 km
- Service ceiling 20,000 m (65,600 ft)
- Wing loading: 335 kg/mÂ² (64 lb/ftÂ²)
- Minimum thrust/weight: 
- With afterburner: 0.98
- In-flight refuelling: Yes
- Thrust-vector-control: Yes
- Maneuverability: Extremely high

WEAPONS:
- Guns: 2Ã 23 mm internal cannon
- Hardpoints: 11, 3 under each wing and 5 under the fuselage
- Missiles: 
- Air-to-air: PL-8, PL-9, PL-11, PL-12
- Air-to-surface: PJ-9, YJ-9K, 90 mm rockets 
- Rocket launcher pods
- Bombs: laser-guided bombs (LT-2), glide bombs (LS-6) and unguided bombs

COMPARABLE TO:
- F-15E "Strike Eagle"
- Eurofighter "Typhoon"
- Sukhoi Su-30MKK "Flanker"
- Dassault "Rafale"
- F-16 "Falcon" (latest versions) 

Air-Attack.com Videos :: J-10 FIGHTER: DEFINITION OF INVINCIBILITY

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## Jihad

Kharian_Beast said:


> Great question All Green. Anyone know if this is a possibility?



Isn't Pakistan spoiling its Airforce Pilots with too many goodies. 
Then again, they deserve it because they're one of the best of their kind.


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## apr1000

COMPARABLE TO:
- F-15E "Strike Eagle"
- Eurofighter "Typhoon"
- Sukhoi Su-30MKK "Flanker"
- Dassault "Rafale"
- F-16 "Falcon" (latest versions) 

i doubt it, all of these are mature aircraft from countries that have experience building airplanes, the J-10 is prolly comparable to F-16, M2k, and Mig-29, and maybe Gripen

that's it, F-15, Typhoon, Rafale, and MKK are way above its league, I highly doubt china has tech for AESA(small radars not AWACS AESA), only country that does is America. Russia, Europe, and Israel are just getting it

also u can maybe import ur own aesa, but its expensive

also compared to other aircraft, the j-10 and the jf-17 were built way to fast, it took less than 10 yrs to design and put them into production, compared to 30 years for Typhoon, Rafale, and LCA. meaning they didn't test everything or didn't do it right.

AND ITS NEVER BEEN IN COMBAT, all of the following except Typhoon and LCA have been combat proven.


oh and did i mention that MKI will get Ibris(AESA), the MRCA will have AESA, IAF wants better engine, and AESA for LCA(but this will dely 2-3 more years so instead of 2010 it will be 2012-2013.


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## SSGPA1

apr1000 said:


> COMPARABLE TO:
> ... oh and did i mention that MKI will get Ibris(AESA), the MRCA will have AESA, IAF wants better engine, and AESA for LCA(but this will dely 2-3 more years so instead of 2010 it will be 2012-2013.



The second I read LCA, I knew there is an Indian friend trying to push the case of LCA.

JF-17 program was launched a while ago by China and then 12 yrs ago PAF came on board. China and Pakistan are two responsible countries who wouldn't put its security and pilots at risk by rushing through the tests.

When LCA was initiated, the intention was to have a Light Combat Aircraft which is also a Low Cost Aircraft. India has yet to achieve any of the two meanings. 

Please open a thread on an Indian defense forum and discuss LCA in details.


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## All-Green

Right on Kharian_Beast

Cant wait for that thread to start...always an exciting time to get new fighters

my father was based in Sargodha when we received the F-16s and man that was an awesome sight, to see brand new F-16s making their runs night and day.

I believe i was 5 at that time...but still felt the rush


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## wangrong

IceCold said:


> Are you sure on this one? Also according to sinodefence and wiki, J-10b is nothing but a twin seater version of the J-10. So where are we going with this one?





*a twin seater version of the J-10 is J10S*

The same

*a twin seater version of the J-11B is J11BS*

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## wangrong

*J10-----J10A(like F16AblockXX---F16AblockYY)

and

J10A----J10B(like F16A/B---F16C/D)*

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## wangrong

Kharian_Beast said:


> *Great question All Green. Anyone know if this is a possibility? *



It's a Secret.

*We should not stimulate some people*


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## IceCold

notorious_eagle said:


> J10S is the twin seater; J10B is an improved version of J10A with extremely high thrust vector and maneuverability. We really dont have enough official info on J10b because the Chinese are very secretive but i have managed to find some info:
> 
> THE J-10B IS A HUGE UPGRADE OF THE J-10A WITH FEATURES SUCH AS:
> - Thrust-vector control
> - Extremely-high maneuverability
> - Stealth DSI intakes
> - More hardpoints
> - AESA radar
> - MUCH MUCH MORE
> 
> It entered service in 2007.
> 
> The J-10B lies on a WHOLE NEW GENERATION than the J-10A. It is much superior to the F-15 Eagle and the Eurofighter Typhoon. Pakistan will use the J-10B (which they call it the FC-20) and they said it was as good as a 5TH-GENERATION FIGHTER.
> 
> SPECIFICATIONS (J-10A):
> - Speed: Mach 2.2
> - g-limits: +9/-3 g (+88/-29 m/s&#194;&#178;, +290/-97 ft/s&#194;&#178
> - Combat radius: 2,540 km (1,370 mi)
> - Range (without refuelling): 3,400 km
> - Service ceiling 20,000 m (65,600 ft)
> - Wing loading: 335 kg/m&#194;&#178; (64 lb/ft&#194;&#178
> - Minimum thrust/weight:
> - With afterburner: 0.98
> - In-flight refuelling: Yes
> - Thrust-vector-control: Yes
> - Maneuverability: Extremely high
> 
> WEAPONS:
> - Guns: 2&#195;&#8212; 23 mm internal cannon
> - Hardpoints: 11, 3 under each wing and 5 under the fuselage
> - Missiles:
> - Air-to-air: PL-8, PL-9, PL-11, PL-12
> - Air-to-surface: PJ-9, YJ-9K, 90 mm rockets
> - Rocket launcher pods
> - Bombs: laser-guided bombs (LT-2), glide bombs (LS-6) and unguided bombs
> 
> COMPARABLE TO:
> - F-15E "Strike Eagle"
> - Eurofighter "Typhoon"
> - Sukhoi Su-30MKK "Flanker"
> - Dassault "Rafale"
> - F-16 "Falcon" (latest versions)
> 
> Air-Attack.com Videos :: J-10 FIGHTER: DEFINITION OF INVINCIBILITY



Ok this look all fancy, but how much reality is in it that remains debatable. Somehow i have my doubts. Frist DSI style intakes, i think this was debated earlier somewhere in this thread and most senior members were of an opinion that it was more of a fan boy concept then in reality, however i may be wrong on this one.
AESA radar is another thing i have my doubts, reason being that till today the only country with an effective working AESA radar was the US. Not even the french or the europeans could induct an AESA radar into their first batch of rafale and the EF. China has a long way to go. Pakistan was never really impressed by the Chinese made pulse doppler radars and our priority was always to find a western one, examples are the grifo-7 for F-7s and we still are searching for a western radar for JF-17 although we have the KLJ. So to expect an AESA radar in J-10 imo is farfetched.
Thrust vector control, now i know that a russian engine AL-31FN with thrust vectoring nozzle was demostrated in 2001 in paris airshow for the J-10 but it came with a cost, a cost what the Indian MKI faces, a very lower MTBO and a chinese copy of the same is still far from being finalized to be given the clearance for use in a single engine jet. Would PAF an already budget constraint airforce will go for something not cost effective at all and more over will require Russian permission. I kinda doubt. PAF doesnt seem to be too happy with the performance of the RD-93 either.


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## waraich66

deleted double post


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## waraich66

IceCold said:


> Ok this look all fancy, but how much reality is in it that remains debatable. Somehow i have my doubts. Frist DSI style intakes, i think this was debated earlier somewhere in this thread and most senior members were of an opinion that it was more of a fan boy concept then in reality, however i may be wrong on this one.
> AESA radar is another thing i have my doubts, reason being that till today the only country with an effective working AESA radar was the US. Not even the french or the europeans could induct an AESA radar into their first batch of rafale and the EF. China has a long way to go. Pakistan was never really impressed by the Chinese made pulse doppler radars and our priority was always to find a western one, examples are the grifo-7 for F-7s and we still are searching for a western radar for JF-17 although we have the KLJ. So to expect an AESA radar in J-10 imo is farfetched.
> Thrust vector control, now i know that a russian engine AL-31FN with thrust vectoring nozzle was demostrated in 2001 in paris airshow for the J-10 but it came with a cost, a cost what the Indian MKI faces, a very lower MTBO and a chinese copy of the same is still far from being finalized to be given the clearance for use in a single engine jet. Would PAF an already budget constraint airforce will go for something not cost effective at all and more over will require Russian permission. I kinda doubt. PAF doesnt seem to be too happy with the performance of the RD-93 either.



I dont think J-10 will be selected by PAF.They have selected JF-17 to replace old J6&J7 planes.China is working on J-14/15 

PAF H-4 missile can be launched from JF-17 and mirages ,chines also now not ranking J-10 the best chinees air craft.

PAF should go for latest mirages 4 or 4.5 gen as main fighter planes.


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## Quwa

PAF will acquire J-10 under the FC-20 designation; could possibly be the J-10B under development right now. Initial batch will consist of 36 aircraft, and depending on circumstance, the PAF J-10 fleet may go up to 150. In any case, the FC-20 is regarded by PAF as a 4+/4.5 generation fighter; I'm pretty sure we'll see TVC, AESA, next-gen weapon-systems, etc, on FC-20.

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## Luftwaffe

Sir jee its not easy to make an airplane from scratch its so easy to say rejected lol. U have no idea sir.

Ok take it this way then why did Pakistan wasted investment on jf-17 making a small jet then instead of making such a small jet they should have invested more on this plane and with Chinese cooperation designed and develop something like alleged FC-20 or something that might have seemed exact equal in size and if not exact replica of F-16. Atleast we would have delayed J-10 till that time to be matured. I am not saying JF-17 project is a blunder its a very wise project good Pakistan started this but i am really puzzled why did Pakistan not invested more to make this plane instead a light jet should have been developed in class of F-16 if Pakistan could invest 550 million though the real figure is around 675 million dollars had Pakistan invested 150 million dollars more and really enhanced its design it would have really be one hell of a fighter in Pakistan. Do you Agree with me on this or not?? though its my opinion if i was given this project i would have invested a lil more on this JF-17 and waited to get J-10s after 2012-2013. I strongly feel Pakistan should have made this JF-17 in the same class as F-16, if JF-17 with best avionics costs 25 million it would have cost us 29 million?? but look at this we would have a F-16 class fighter. JF-17 is not at all in the league of F-16 perhaps in future i am sure avionics will be in the league of F-16 or even better may be.


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## All-Green

luftwaffe said:


> Sir jee its not easy to make an airplane from scratch its so easy to say rejected lol. U have no idea sir.
> 
> Ok take it this way then why did Pakistan wasted investment on jf-17 making a small jet then instead of making such a small jet they should have invested more on this plane and with Chinese cooperation designed and develop something like alleged FC-20 or something that might have seemed exact equal in size and if not exact replica of F-16. Atleast we would have delayed J-10 till that time to be matured. I am not saying JF-17 project is a blunder its a very wise project good Pakistan started this but i am really puzzled why did Pakistan not invested more to make this plane instead a light jet should have been developed in class of F-16 if Pakistan could invest 550 million though the real figure is around 675 million dollars had Pakistan invested 150 million dollars more and really enhanced its design it would have really be one hell of a fighter in Pakistan. Do you Agree with me on this or not?? though its my opinion if i was given this project i would have invested a lil more on this JF-17 and waited to get J-10s after 2012-2013. I strongly feel Pakistan should have made this JF-17 in the same class as F-16, if JF-17 with best avionics costs 25 million it would have cost us 29 million?? but look at this we would have a F-16 class fighter. JF-17 is not at all in the league of F-16 perhaps in future i am sure avionics will be in the league of F-16 or even better may be.



Luftwaffe, please note that F-16 today is nowhere near in capability as F-16 of Day1. These birds take a lot of time and effort to mature. 
Whereas i do understand that JF-17 is being inducted at a time when lots of modern aircraft platform are in service, the thing to be noted is that JF-17 is designed as a light maneuverable aircraft (a concept similar to F-16) with multirole capabilities in mind and lots and lots of room for improvement in terms of avionics package. 
In future thrust to weight may take a jump with better engines and lighter composite materials, RCS is already low and if composite materials are used it shall be that harder to detect.
Already a lot of things like Modern glass Cockpit, LERX were seen in the built version which was not on paper a few years back.
I think we shall see in the next few years what really is in store for JF-17.


As far as FC-20 is concerned it is supposed to be an advanced version of J-10 as rightly pointed out by Mark Sien and Kharian_Beast.

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## notorious_eagle

luftwaffe said:


> Sir jee its not easy to make an airplane from scratch its so easy to say rejected lol. U have no idea sir.
> 
> Ok take it this way then why did Pakistan wasted investment on jf-17 making a small jet then instead of making such a small jet they should have invested more on this plane and with Chinese cooperation designed and develop something like alleged FC-20 or something that might have seemed exact equal in size and if not exact replica of F-16. Atleast we would have delayed J-10 till that time to be matured. I am not saying JF-17 project is a blunder its a very wise project good Pakistan started this but i am really puzzled why did Pakistan not invested more to make this plane instead a light jet should have been developed in class of F-16 if Pakistan could invest 550 million though the real figure is around 675 million dollars had Pakistan invested 150 million dollars more and really enhanced its design it would have really be one hell of a fighter in Pakistan. Do you Agree with me on this or not?? though its my opinion if i was given this project i would have invested a lil more on this JF-17 and waited to get J-10s after 2012-2013. I strongly feel Pakistan should have made this JF-17 in the same class as F-16, if JF-17 with best avionics costs 25 million it would have cost us 29 million?? but look at this we would have a F-16 class fighter. JF-17 is not at all in the league of F-16 perhaps in future i am sure avionics will be in the league of F-16 or even better may be.



JF17 will be improved with time, the first batch will only carry Chinese avoinics and radars. But PAF is already in negotiation with many European firms, so you can expect the next batch of JF17 will be more lethal with better equipment. It took years to improve early versions of F16's and F15's, with time and better equipment they developed this fierce reputation.


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## All-Green

I think JF-17 is stealing the thunder of J-10 here 
Bottom line is JF-17 will be a force to be reckoned with, mark my words.
So with that diversion lets get back to J-10 "the vigorous dragon" (feeling ignored). 


waraich66 claims that J-10 is not being regarded by Chinese as their best Chinese plane.
In current scenario where J-10 is the premier locally designed (not just manufactured) fighter and hundreds of which have been inducted; Please tell me what lead you to this conclusion?

Also i believe PAF has ordered 36 already and they do realize that it shall become a very very potent fighter.
Anything you heard contrary to this?


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## wangrong

All-Green said:


> I think JF-17 is stealing the thunder of J-10 here
> Bottom line is JF-17 will be a force to be reckoned with, mark my words.
> So with that diversion lets get back to J-10 "the vigorous dragon" (feeling ignored).
> 
> 
> *waraich66 claims that J-10 is not being regarded by Chinese as their best Chinese plane.*In current scenario where J-10 is the premier locally designed (not just manufactured) fighter and hundreds of which have been inducted; Please tell me what lead you to this conclusion?
> 
> Also i believe PAF has ordered 36 already and they do realize that it shall become a very very potent fighter.
> Anything you heard contrary to this?



*J11XX&#65288;after J11B)
This is an open secret, secret solution also needs some time*


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## raheelocelot

Wangrong, u a partially rite. PAF has ordered some J-10s but that deal has not been finalized yet. It is going through some package changes n stuff. And talking about the comparison of jf-17 and j-10; there is no comparsion my friend. J-10 is a far superior aircraft, consideredhi-tech against a med-tech Jf-17. And the combination of them would be very lethal. So, lets wait till 2015 and pray for the best


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## All-Green

wangrong said:


> *J11XX&#65288;after J11B)
> This is an open secret, secret solution also needs some time*



wangrong my friend.
I believe J-11 was upgraded version of SU-27
Whereas i think it would have been greatly enhanced by China, still it cannot be called a true breakthrough like J-10 which was the first high tech Chinese designed and manufactured aircraft.
That is why i said that i have heard nothing contrary to J-10 being the best Chinese fighter (from Chinese fighter i meant Chinese made).

Also what is J-11XX?
A newer version of J11?

Thanks.


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## Imran Khan

may be new vision of su-30mki.made in chaina very good.


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## wangrong

All-Green said:


> wangrong my friend.
> I believe J-11 was upgraded version of SU-27
> Whereas i think it would have been greatly enhanced by China, still it cannot be called a true breakthrough like J-10 which was the first high tech Chinese designed and manufactured aircraft.
> That is why i said that i have heard nothing contrary to J-10 being the best Chinese fighter (from Chinese fighter i meant Chinese made).
> 
> Also what is J-11XX?
> *A newer version of J11?*
> 
> Thanks.



Yes.


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## wangrong

imran khan said:


> may be new vision of su-30mki.made in chaina very good.




No,they are very different,the different roles


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## nitetrogen70

quick question guys wats the difference between j 10a and j 10b and can the j10b be in the same class as the the raphel grippen and the euro typhoone


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## wangrong

nitetrogen70 said:


> quick question guys wats the difference between j 10a and j 10b and can the j10b be in the same class as the the raphel grippen and the euro typhoone



1&#12289;
j10A air-to-air 

j10B *Multifunctional*

2&#12289;*Composite materials*

*Reduce weight 

Increase the range*

3&#12289;*DSI*

4&#12289;*Electronic warehouse*

&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;

Anyway&#65292;they were very different...


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## wangrong




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## Kharian_Beast

I'm getting a lot of net chatter about J-10B and it's supposed maiden flight on December 26, it was mentioned once here but the Chinese forums are ablaze with some stories about top PLAAF officials waiting outside all morning in the cold for a test flight of a brand new aircraft. I wish we could have some definitive confirmation but alas this is China we are talking about and they keep the lid very tight on such projects. All I know for sure is that FC-20 is not J-10A.


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## Kharian_Beast

PS - If this turns out to be bogus do not blame me! Air Chief Tanvir Mahmoud did not refer to "high tech FC-20" as J10 or F10 even though he could have and has said that contracts will be signed in 2009.


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## Arsalan

i wish pakistan get there hands on this system as soon as possible, we badly need them and some J11 will also do good. the reason being that at the moment we lack to match the india Su30 and Su27 threat.

by getting the J10z we can atleast start thinking of a competition


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## All-Green

Kharian_Beast said:


> PS - If this turns out to be bogus do not blame me! Air Chief Tanvir Mahmoud did not refer to "high tech FC-20" as J10 or F10 even though he could have and has said that contracts will be signed in 2009.



Wasn't the delivery confirmed for 2009?
Now Air Chief is saying that even contract has not been signed yet!!!


Well that makes two of us...i am really expecting a beast of a plane...


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## TOPGUN

We need them asap who knows wats going in PAF high command ??


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## Zob

my friends...u have to understand even if Pakistan wants to get the J11's we cannot...because J11 is an upgraded SU-30 variant and Mother Russia will never authorise the sale of such a fighter to pakistan due to indian pressure. However given the current friendly athmoshpere between India and US i think its time to make allies with Russia....CHINA PAK AND RUSSIA....should come together...as for the FC20 well i think it is bascially the J10B but with western avionics....but there is no AESA or TVC in it. correct me if i am wrong...!!thank you


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## IceCold

Zob said:


> my friends...u have to understand even if Pakistan wants to get the J11's we cannot...because J11 is an upgraded SU-30 variant and Mother Russia will never authorise the sale of such a fighter to pakistan due to indian pressure. However given the current friendly athmoshpere between India and US i think its time to make allies with Russia....CHINA PAK AND RUSSIA....should come together...as for the FC20 well i think it is bascially the J10B but with western avionics....but there is no AESA or TVC in it. correct me if i am wrong...!!thank you



That is not the issue because J-11b is anything but Russian, even the powerplant is domestic Chinese built. The only reason we are not going for J11 is because PAF seems to satisfied with its current and future acquisitions, the F-16s, FC-20 and the JF-17s.


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## z9-ec

Well, folks, this is what I found. I don't know how reliable China Defense Mashup is but seems good to me.



> Greatly Improved J-10 Fighter First Flight in China
> 
> Chengdu, Dec 27 (China Defense Mashup Report)  Several eyewitnesses in Chengdu city prove that a greatly improved J-10 fighter makes its first flight from CAC (Chengdu Aircraft Corporation) internal airport in Huang Tianba (&#40644;&#30000;&#22365.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One Chinese Artists CG Imagine Image of Improved J-10 Fighter
> 
> Some spectators say that the eyeable improvements include a DSI inlet, Forward Looking Infra Red (FLIR) Pod and Tail Wing-tip Integrated Electrical Avionics. Besides, some Internet resources claim that new J-10 has equipped with high-performance AESA radar, modified wing inner structure and stealth in-board pylons. The engine is still the Russian AL-31F, which will be replaced by FADEC AL-31FM3 for better air performance. But Chinas WS-10 engine also has opportunity.
> 
> The flight lasts about 10 minutes and the test pilot is believed to be Liang Wanjun (&#26753;&#19975;&#20426.
> 
> Although closing to 3.5th+ generation fighters like Typhoon and Rafael, how many new J-10 fighters will be purchansed by PLA Air Force is still one question, because CAC and SAC have entered the drastic competition for PLAs 5th generation fighter. There always a rumor that CAC will provide prototype fighter before 2012.


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## PAFAce

I don't think we have to match India stride for stride. Have enough air power to make India seriously consider any misadventures, and mass enough nuclear missiles just to drive home the point.
An Arms race with India is not something we can afford.

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## IceCold

PAFAce said:


> I don't think we have to match India stride for stride. Have enough air power to make India seriously consider any misadventures, and mass enough nuclear missiles just to drive home the point.
> *An Arms race with India is not something we can afford*.



And we are not looking for one either, its the minimum deterrence that we need to maintain and that is what we are currently doing.


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## PAFAce

IceCold said:


> And we are not looking for one either, its the minimum deterrence that we need to maintain and that is what we are currently doing.



I agee with you 100%. But the definition of 'minimum deterrence' is different for different people. We are acquiring/have acquired new F-16s B/52s, upgraded/upgrading old F-16s, acquiring JF-17s, about to acquire FC-20s, and still, we feel that we need to spend more on J-11s etc. I am not entirely against the acquisitions of J-11s and J-XXs, but we must draw the line somewhere. Our resources are limited. 

Pakistanis' Lives in the Future is inversely proportional to Pakistanis' Livelihoods Today. Build a great arsenal and we may be able to protect more lives in the future, but at the expense of people's livelihoods today, and vice versa. We must balance this equation.

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## hj786

PAFAce I am in complete agreement with you on this issue of procurement. Rest assured, I very much doubt PAF will buy J-11. It is nowhere near as cost effective as the dragons - FC-20 and JF-17. For PAF I think its current procurements (JF-17, FC-20, AWACS, refuellers) are more than enough to keep Pakistan and it's interests safe. 
Any extra military funds should be moved to development of Pakistan's economy, infra-structure, education system and so on. I believe the Air Chief Marshal is a wise man and hope he will not waste Pakistan's resources on capabilities that will probably never be tested.

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## PAFAce

hj786 said:


> Any extra military funds should be moved to development of Pakistan's economy, infra-structure, education system and so on. I believe the Air Chief Marshal is a wise man and hope he will not waste Pakistan's resources on capabilities that will probably never be tested.



Exactly. You've nailed it. Investing in education and research today will benefit our defence program as well, we just have to be patient.

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## Luftwaffe

Confused where to post! i am posting it here...

An Armature thought...Wish It would come true.

Pakistan future apart from current fleets must include a large fleet of J-10 with state of the art technology it is apparent that J-10s in due time will have state of the art avionics and most importantly AESA radar that at least might be comparable to European counterparts or a step lower and above Russians. A Fleet of 150 J-10s till 2023 that is in next 14 years will ensure Pakistan&#8217;s fleet with high-tech Jets. This is my opinion if Pakistan wants a good product we must not look to Europeans or Americans for out next procurement of fighter jets after F-16 due to American and european sanctions factor etc Better our Nuclear Weapons Program continue and advance as well number of Nukes in our stocks and adding more. We must concentrate on J-10 look forward to China as our only guarantor providing us with some of the best weapons on the earth. We have seen Chinese revolution in Weapons and Jets making by the fact that China is in many areas has totally got independence from Russians. I think in next 5 Years China will come up with a better AESA that Russians are offering Indians on MIG-35. It&#8217;s a clear sign that China is working on an AESA radar project looking at the development on their AWACS though the radar is not AESA but then again Chinese might be working on AESA version for their AWACS. We know later JXX will appear after 2020 till than we should totally concentrate on Nukes developments and Missiles programs and keep pushing the development of the JF-17 Thunder. I disagree that Pakistan should only develop around 240 JF-17s because we know F-7s and Mirages will be decommissioned around 2018 definitely after giving upgrades to these Jets some members are saying they will soon be decommissioned such statements are foolish. Seriously thinking 240 fleet of JF-17s plus around 54 F-16s not counting J-10s after complete decommissioning of F-7s and Mirages doesn&#8217;t make sense. To me Pakistan must have a strong fleet of 400 JF-17s with top notch avionics and new blocks. By new blocks I mean J-17 must be designed sooner or later on basis of F-16. With new engine development in near future by Chinese engineers and enough engineering know how by our hard working Pakistani aeronautical aerospace engineers in due course I am pretty sure we can modify JF-17 block II must equally similar exactly in size and some design to F-16C blk52 if we need JF-17 that can be used for Naval and long range sorties partial deep strikes. I strongly feel that JF-17 blk II must in size and some area of deign should be = F-16C/D if we need something close or or equal to F-16 blk 60 in future. I&#8217;m sure some of you will say J-10 is the answer whatever others say it&#8217;s their opinion I respect but to me our need for future we must concentrate on JF-17 blk II after first 50 JF-17s or after 100/150 Fleet. 150 JF-17 blk I and 250 JF-17 blk II all equipped with AESA will neutralize the effects of large fleet of Indian Jaguars, Mig 21, Migs 23, Mig 27, Mig 29, Mirage 2000s and lca. We know JF-17 has more room for upgradation and expansion and it is where Migs lack for future looking at their upcoming upgrades and also the age of these old birds. 
2024
400 JF-17s Block I/II
150 J-10s Blocks ??
54 F-16s block 52/MLU
If economy was better might get our hands on French Rafale up to 36
640 Fleets

VS
Jaguars 110
Mig 23/Mig27/Mig29/possible Mig35 340
SU-30s 230
FA/18E 126 possible more license to build to round up figure to 200
Mirage 2000s 69-70 plus 30 more purchases from third parties. 100
LCA 250
No MIG 21s
1230-1300 Fleets
This is Just a speculation dream imaginations i am not saying this is going to be the way but it might we can&#8217;t say for sure but can hope in regards to Pakistan. 
We must not look for quantity frankly quantity is out of our reach. But certainly we can and must reduce this 3:1 to 2:1 till 2024. 
Also we must have a robust better Air Defense systems with Army & Air Force we must reach an agreement with China to get stuff that&#8217;s top notch when it comes to Defense of our country. 
We must obtain in next few years SAMs that are comparable to S-300 or better from China fair enough to protect our Air Space heavily that enemy has to think not twice but thrice. Also this Missile defense System is must for Pakistan sooner or later Indian is getting it from US for sure. If China is working on its Missile Defense System to which frankly I don&#8217;t have knowledge if anyone on thread or forum knows let me know thanks..So we must get it whenever it&#8217;s available to neutralize the problem the soonest in near future. 
640 VS 1300 is not a bad ratio considering India will store almost half of its inventory for China which bring 1:1 in true sense.


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## Keysersoze

rpa1 said:


> luftwaffe
> 
> actual numbers will be more like this for iaf around 2024
> 
> 100-200 PAK-FA
> 230 mki's
> 70 mig-29s
> 50 m2ks
> 250-300 lca
> 200 mrca (prolly rafael or typhoon)
> 
> so instead of 1300 more like 900-1000
> 
> vs
> 
> 400 jf-17
> 150 j-10
> 60 f-16
> maybe j-xx
> rafael too expensive
> 
> as for support aircraft (aewacs, refuellers, and ew)
> 
> paf:
> 
> 10 aewacs (6 eyrie, 4 chinese ones)
> 20 refuellers
> 10 ew planes
> 
> 
> iaf:
> 
> 20 aewacs (10 phalcons and 10 ingeneous)
> 30 refuellers?
> 20 ew planes



These numbers are probably the dumbest thing i have seen in a long while......


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## Luftwaffe

No Indian Jaguars well above 100 are being upgraded or being under upgradation process as well as Indian will do anything to lay its hands on those Mirage 2000 from third parties and upgrade them to bring total number of fleet to 100. Yes possibilities of completely phasing out mig23s is possible till 2019. 100 PAK-FA never for ur sake it'll be only 70. I'm talking about total number of MIG 29, that is India has 69-70 already plus 16 ordered Naval version, that makes already 85-86 add 15 or 16 more i am sure India loves 100 figure . Correct 250 lca, 230 SU-30 MKI after red flag exercises India is not in mood to get more than 230, I am pretty sure there will be a time when India cries out again and will get 74 license to produce 74 more to bring total number to 200 (My bet FA/18E is certain), you did not read news did you?, India is upgrading more than 100 mig27s they already have about 130-140 mig27s. calculate they won't let these migs go easily before 2027. No fool would decommission a plane after upgrading it i don't think an upgrade is for 4-5 year its for a long term yes again u might be right Indian might decommission atleast 60 of them in 2020 rest will go till 2028. 
Still its going to be 1200 fleet. umm JXX i hope if JXX becomes reality and again as you said rafale are expensive u can expect a better economy by Pakistan till 2020+ till that time Gawadar port will be in full swing i believe. Haven't you read at fullest gawadar can make 60 billion dollars a year though i do not believe it but yes at the most 15 billions dollars and 2020 will be the start of it I can expect atleast that Pakistan will be making 5-6 billion dollars a year from 2018 and beyond. sorry to bring gawadar in this topic
approx 600 V 1200 is expected till 2024 i believe so India is also going towards Quality we've to watch that factor as well.

100 Mirage 2000
100 Mig29
120 Jaguars
120 Mig 27
40 Mig 23
250 lca
230 SU-30
200 FA/18
70 PAK-FA for you

again I strongly have this feeling Pakistan will increase the number of JF-17s to 
400 jf-17 BLK I/II
150 J-10
54 F-16
36 rafale pakistan:add karney mein kya harj hai bhai)
Remember in my earlier post India will store half of the Inventory for China so no worries they are not using it all against Pakistan they have to protect the other side hehe Indians are squeezed. till 2024 along with an Increase in our fleet Quality will be at the peak for Pakistan Air Force.


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## Keysersoze

Ok now you have started as well....this is now starting to get stupid....... time to let this thread have a break until you guys come to your senses...


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## PAFAce

Thanks Keysersoze for re-opening the thread. However, I think it would be better if I started another thread.


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## mean_bird

A request to the moderator(s)/Admin(s).

Please do not close threads that go out of control, instead warn, brig or ban the offenders. Closing a thread is penalizing the serious members because of the actions of some over-enthusiastic trolls and is unfair. Infact, it provides an opportunity for anyone to derail the topic and have it closed. 

Sorry for the off-topic post. Just a suggestion/request, rest you guys know best how to run the forum.


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## iceman2009

Those Air force numbers are outrageous for two developing countries..

We are not oil rich arabs or Western Europeans..

Look at our GDPs or defense budgets first,,, look were we are heading

AT BEST THEY WILL BE BY 2020

PAF 70 F16 52/MLU 

60 FC20/J10

140 JF17 block 1 & 2 

80 F7P/PG

350 FIGHTERS (230 NEW FIGHTERS IN 11 Years) not bad for a country with a GDP of $160b & defense budget of $6b currently

compare

IAF 200 SU30MKI

100 MRCA RAFAEL/F18

80 Tejas 1/2

50 mirage 2000-5 

60 mig29smt

70 jaguar

550 planes ( 280 new planes in 11 years) 

Only 70 more planes from a country with a $1.1 trillion gdp and defense budget of $27b currently

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## PAFAce

Pakistan: An advanced jet designed, developed and produced in 10 years, not bad for a country with a GDP per capita of $2,600 (in a steady incline since 2003) and 40.8 million people below the poverty line.

Not Pakistan: An advanced jet in production for 10 years but not yet completed, not bad for a country with a GDP per capita of $2,900 (down $1,100 in 1 year) and 285 million people below the poverty line

Sources: 
CIA World Fact Book
Index Mundi

(Sorry mods, could not resist. It will never happen again.)

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## Quwa

PAC clearly stated that they will produce 50 JF-17 a year to meet the PAF's requirement of 250-300 by 2019. Beyond this PakDef has the FC-20 figures at 60~150...with the first batch of initial 36 arriving in 2010-2011. PAF will retain its F-7PG and Mirage ROSE as well.

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## hj786

Mark Sien said:


> PAC clearly stated that they will produce 50 JF-17 a year to meet the PAF's requirement of 250-300 by 2019. Beyond this PakDef has the FC-20 figures at 60~150...with the first batch of initial 36 arriving in 2010-2011. PAF will retain its F-7PG and Mirage ROSE as well.



I understand keeping F-7PG, those things are nearly new. But Mirage ROSE? Do those airframes still have lots of life left? Which ones will be kept? If the older airframes will stick around too, does it make financial sense to keep rebuilding them?
I am guessing only the strike platforms (ROSE 2 and 3?) will be kept in service since the interceptor platforms (ROSE 1?) will be replaced by the JF-17. 

I like the ROSE Mirages very much but I don't see the point of spending money to rebuild them all the time, especially when the ROSE 1 interceptor variants are pretty much obsolete anyway.

Just to not go off the topic, Mark weren't some of your sources at Pakdef also saying that J-10s could POSSIBLY arrive at the end of this year?


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## hasang20

it says the delivery of FC-20s will be in early 2009 cant wait to see it.


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## Quwa

hj786 said:


> Just to not go off the topic, Mark weren't some of your sources at Pakdef also saying that J-10s could POSSIBLY arrive at the end of this year?


Who was it specifically?


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## hj786

Mark Sien said:


> Who was it specifically?


Can't remember, but I thought I read that somewhere either on Pakdef or PDF. Never mind, probably just me.


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## shehbazi2001

Mark Sien said:


> Who was it specifically?



Actually the Nov 2008 issue of Asian Military Review also says that initial 26 J-10s shall be delivered to Pakistan in 2009. 

I dont know the exact configuration of J-10 but perhaps these initial 26 birds may be inducted with chinese weapons and avionics. Any modifications of western avionics and weapons carried out in china on these fighters specifically for Pakistan are not known.


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## mean_bird

February 4, 2009 Wednesday


Russia to supply over 100 fighter plane engines to China - Rosoboronexport

Text of report by Russian state news agency ITAR-TASS

Moscow , 4 February: Russia has signed its first contract in 2009 with China on the supply of over 100 aircraft engines for J-10 planes, Rosoboronexport Director-General Anatoliy Isaykin has said.

"The world's leading analysts think that the People's Republic of China will continue to buy military transport aircraft, including strategic refuelling tankers, long-range radar surveillance and carrier-borne aircraft, as well as aircraft engines. By the way, our first contract in 2009 was signed with China on the supply of over 100 aircraft engines for J-10 planes," Isaykin said in an interview with Nezavisimaya Gazeta published today.

"That country is also showing keen interest in air defence equipment. Our partners pay great attention to upgrading their navy through imports as well," he added.

At the same time, the Rosoboronexport head noted that the expanding geography and increasing volumes of Russian military exports "logically lead to the reduction of China 's share in our arms exports."

"It is quite likely that it may drop from 40 per cent to 10 per cent. We are not concerned about that because the volume of sales remains high," Isaykin predicted.

Source: ITAR-TASS news agency, Moscow , in Russian 0810 gmt 4 Feb 09


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## mean_bird

I wonder what implications that has for our FC-20s?


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## Arsalan

it is being claimed that the FC20 will be flying in pakistan by 2009-2010, right?

but where are they, no news of FC20 being in production, no news of its specs,,,, can anyone help us??

i guess it may turn out to be a surprise item just as the J10 did s there is no option as if they are to enter PAF in 2009 they must be well under production!!


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## Arsalan

i also have a small problem or query with the FC20

they are said to be massive upgrade of the J10 that will be able to counter any of its counter-part, but the point is that i dont think we have given enough time to J10 to become fully known and they perform some improvement,

dont you people think so that the J10 plane being new itself, how can it be MASSIVELY improved to become FC20!!

thanks


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## araz

One of the things that irks me about this news, is that although ACM has made his intentions well known, regarding FC20s, we have not heard officially about a contract being signed for the same. Is this usual in Sino PAk relations? 
If the contract has not been signed, how can we expect PAF to have these planes by 20009/10. The circumstances may well change if the clouds over our skies darkened, but unless they do, i expect, a contract in 09/10 and arrival of planes in 3 yrs.
WaSalam
Araz


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## Quwa

mean_bird said:


> I wonder what implications that has for our FC-20s?


PAF FC-20s will be using Russian engines...

Pakistan to introduce 36 China-made fighter planes | Pakistan Daily

_Pakstan's air force picked the FC-20 from dozens of candidates as it adapted Russian engines with the most advanced thrust vectoring technology, the general said._


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## hj786

Mark Sien said:


> PAF FC-20s will be using Russian engines...
> 
> Pakistan to introduce 36 China-made fighter planes | Pakistan Daily
> 
> _Pakstan's air force picked the FC-20 from dozens of candidates as it adapted Russian engines with the most advanced thrust vectoring technology, the general said._


I am still sceptical of Russian engines, why would PAF want the infamous AL-31 in their latest greatest jets? It is my opinion that they will wait for the WS-10A to be cleared for use on J-10, if it isn't already. 

I have read an article somewhere saying that China has shown their own TVC nozzle for WS-10A in development (might be finished now), it was shown deflecting 15 degrees horizontally and vertically under full afterburner. But I don't see why J-10 needs TVC anyway. Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen don't, so why does J-10?


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## mean_bird

Well according to the article i posted , and assuming its true, the Chinese have ordered 100 new russian engines in 2009 so it clearly shows the WS-10A isn't ready yet.


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## hj786

mean_bird said:


> Well according to the article i posted , and assuming its true, the Chinese have ordered 100 new russian engines in 2009 so it clearly shows the WS-10A isn't ready yet.


Wrong, it is in use on the J-11B from what I have read. According to people on Chinese forums, new orders are because China can't produce enough WS-10A yet, so they are having to order more AL-31 to keep all the current and new J-10/J-11 flying.


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## Hasnain2009

Are C20 and J-10b same??


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## Hasnain2009

FC-20 and J-10b


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## showstopper

hi everyone. this is my first time posting, so i hope i do this right. 
what variant of the j-10 is paf intending to procure? there's a j-10a and a j-10b, which one is coming our way? also, how many is paf going to get . i know the current order is for 36, but i heard a rumour for 100. is that true? finally, when will these aircraft be inducted into the paf? thanks.

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## PAFAce

This is the best quality video of the J-10 I have seen till date. I hope it has not been posted here before.






To answer the above questions, nobody is sure which variant of the J-10 exactly will chosen as Pakistan's FC-20 (most people here lean towards the J-10B which is still under development). We are not even sure whether or not the first FC-20s will be customized for Pakistani use or not. However, I my knowledge is limited and someone else could end up coming up with a _credible source_ to answer the questions.

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## mean_bird

showstopper said:


> hi everyone. this is my first time posting, so i hope i do this right.
> what variant of the j-10 is paf intending to procure? there's a j-10a and a j-10b, which one is coming our way? also, how many is paf going to get . i know the current order is for 36, but i heard a rumour for 100. is that true? finally, when will these aircraft be inducted into the paf? thanks.



read through the thread as all the information you asked is there.

In short, nobody knows which variant PAF will get. They are looking for western avionics and radar so its probably going to be something a bit different from what the PLAF has. Its also going to be called the FC-20. J10b isn't out yet so nobody knows what's in it. Rumors have it that there is TVC and DSI and probably a more powerful radar. 

PAF ACM said in Sept 2008, that a deal would be signed for 36 FC-20s within the next 12 months. So you can estimate the time yourself of the deliveries. More FC-20 could be procured after we get the first ones and are satisfied with it and/or there is some problem with the F-16 blk 52s that we are getting. 

Hope that helps but I suggest you go through the thread for more details


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## hj786

mean_bird said:


> In short, nobody knows which variant PAF will get. They are looking for western avionics and radar so its probably going to be something a bit different from what the PLAF has. Its also going to be called the FC-20. J10b isn't out yet so nobody knows what's in it. Rumors have it that there is TVC and DSI and probably a more powerful radar.
> 
> PAF ACM said in Sept 2008, that a deal would be signed for 36 FC-20s within the next 12 months. So you can estimate the time yourself of the deliveries. More FC-20 could be procured after we get the first ones and are satisfied with it and/or there is some problem with the F-16 blk 52s that we are getting.


This interview is an excellent insight into PAF procurements:


Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed said:


> ...150 JF-17 Thunders and *36 F-10A* aircraft will also be joining PAF, and more F-10s can be expected. Most probably we will also purchase FC-20 fighter aircraft from China.


There you go. The first 36 J-10 will likely be A models (F-10A), but upgraded variant (FC-20, seems to be J-10B) will likely be procured - probably depending on economic situation.

Also, we know little about J-10B. The only source on it that I know of is this: 
China working on 'Super-10' advanced fighter - Jane's Air Forces News
This article indicates an aircraft designated Super-10 will be a J-10 upgraded with passive phased array (PESA) radar and 3D TVC being the notable new features. This is according to Russian sources. Many believe this is referring to J-10B. But it is important to remember that Janes Defence don't know anything about secret Chinese stuff, this is basically just Russian rumours - probably the same Russians who claim "J-10 is a LAVI but modified by Russia, not China." Also note that this article is from 2006, it is 3 years old.

It is important to bear in mind, everything about J-10B/Super-10 that we know is basically just rumours, so we shouldn't go around telling people stupid crap like "YES PAF WILL HAVE 150 J-10B UPGRADED WITH WESTERN RADAR AND AVIONICS AND MISSILES, blah blah blah."

PAFACe thanks for posting the vid. Can anybody tell me what the white smoke being blown out backwards from the J-10 at 0:50 is? Looks like it is being blown out of the engine. 
Interesting points of the video: 
1:17 the J-10 starts the take-off run
1:34 the J-10 lifts off the ground
1:35 the J-10 goes vertical
All this is done with NO afterburner.

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## Munir

It is a shame that none know the basic way for this Saturn to dump fuel... Just that much is pushed into the flow that it will not good enough to burn. Handy to locate eachother or just to dump before landing. Or as in this case... If you want to have the perfect weight for a smart going vertical... You dump the extra weight.

Just check my old J10 video and you will see that it is nothing new. And it is surely not diesel cause we would smell that. I have seen this plane a few times doing it and it surely did not smell wrong.

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## showstopper

thanks everyone!


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## Quwa

hj786,

Good catch!

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## mean_bird

Does anyone know which AESA radar is currently on offer to PAF?


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## mean_bird

Some stuff related to J-10


> In addition, the Pakistan Air Force is also seeking Chinese help its modernization, China and Pakistan jointly research the JF-17 "Lightning" / FC-1 "Xiaolong" fighters, 250 of the fighters will be a gradual replacement of strong-5C attack planes, F-7P fighter aircraft and Mirage III fighters, and thus constitute a Pakistani Air Force's main models.
> 
> Pakistan also seeks 7 - 8 hundred million US dollars loans from China,to help the Pakistani Air Force for the first batch of 50 JF-17 fighter planes before 2011 .
> 
> The article also mentioned, Pakistan in this year will decide whether to purchase 36-40
> F -10 fighter aircraft (the Pakistani side calls FC-20). This batch of high-end fighter plane will supplement Pakistan Air force active duty F-16A and already ordered F-16C/D which will be of order Block52. (round the world Times in American special correspondent Wang Qichao)&#12288;
> ÃÀ¿¯:°Í»ùË¹Ì¹»ò½«²É¹ºÖÐ¹ú054A»¤ÎÀ½¢-¾üÊÂÌìµØ-ÖÐ¹úÄþ²¨Íø
> 
> feb 6, 2009



If the interview of the ACM posted by hj786 is correct ( since it was posted as a translation by someone and we havent seen the original interview as a picture/video) then it seems that the first 36 aircrafts would be the J10a, probably with western avionics and stuff. And the FC-20 could possibly refer to a future modified version....with the demand and specification and possibly collaboration of the PAF....this theory agrees with what pshamim said on pakdef of a new fighter to be revealed by 2012. 

This theory, however, contradicts what tphuang said and what's mentioned in the quote I posted above, that J10 (or F-10 the export version) and FC-20 are the same thing. It also looks from the PAF calender I posted that shows the J-10 as FC-20. The fact that it will be ordered this year makes it highly unlikely that we will see any major alteration (that might require testing) but probably just upgraded avionics.

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## Zob

well firstly i don't think the contract has been inked... but i heard from somewhere another rumour i guess that a more advanced J-10 flew in december 2008...can someone confirm this report....cuz if this is the case then i think we can expect J-10b to be set on flight testing within 2009....and if pakistan hasn't inked the contract we can surely do once the trials are over....so by 2012 we can expect first deliveries...damn seems like a long time!!


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## adnan1479

the new fighter that mean_bird mentioned in his thread - - -could it be the j-xx/j-14?
also, with 3 possibilities on the table for a frontline system i.e 
1-standard j-10
2-advanced j-10/j-10b with aesa, conformal tanks and loads of onboard electronics (the graphics of which we have seen on this site)
3-j-xx/j-14
what would be the most sensible long term decision?


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## Zob

nothing has been inked yet so J10A OR B can't be guarnteed but i like the fact that finally china is making some advanced fighters unlike before.


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## araz

My take is PAF is playing a nice game. If the situation gets tough , it will order J10s in their current configuration. However, if things go according to plan, PAF will wait , I strongly suspect, it has given its input in what changes it wants in J10s, and the chinese are working on it. The recent flight may have been related to it. If on final evaluation, PAF finds all to its satisfaction, it will induct J20s in larger numbers than originally announced.
At the moment that is all that we can say.
Araz

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## Munir

The Indians are trying to get everyone in the MRCA deal. Sooner or later they have to select. The longer they wait the more outdated planes they will get. No one is going them to sell f35 or F22... We will see how far Russians will go after MKI. All other parties will be running to opposite site to sell. The goodies to upgrade JF17 or J10 will be more available then ever. If not they will buy the best version of J10 available.


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## Zob

Ok firstly India increased there defnce budget by 34&#37; and india is a rich and big country everyone wants to win the contract for MRCA cuz that means lots of business and money for the winner....so yes they will always be offering india the top of the line things and indias economical muscle means india can ask for TOT and whatever it wants. but an ideal scenario would be that india buys US fighters....then Russia gets annoyed PAKISTAN,CHINA,RUSSIA join hands and we get russian state of the art equipment...UTOPIA!! but realistically if we get 2 squadrons of J-10s with AESA radars we would be well placed...!! and if we get TOT for J10s that would be even better!!


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## araz

Whereas I agree with your post, My only adddendum to your statement is that PAF will only be a buyer of J10s. It is not feasible for a small country like Pakistan to afford to run 2 side by side assemblies for JF17 and J10/FC20. I think PAf should concentrate on Thunder which needs all the attention it can get at the moment, so that the platform can be launched. Then there are developments for the second tranche which will keep us busy till 2112-13. So if we have had to shift out manufacturing of K8 to concentrate on JF17, you need to understand why PAF will not take over *manufacturing* of J10 EVEN IF IT WAS OFFERED TO US, WHICH AT THE MOMENT HAS NOT!!!
WaSalam
Araz

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## TOPGUN

I wonder if our j-10's will be in grey color schme?


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## Hasnain2009

President leaves for China today

Staff Report 

ISLAMABAD: President Asif Ali Zardari will leave for China on Friday (today), on his second visit to the friendly neighbour since assuming office last year.

He will explore avenues of economic cooperation in various fields, including Chinese investment in Pakistan&#8217;s energy sector.

During his visit from February 20 to 23, the president will visit Hubei, Yichang and Shanghai &#8211; the industrial hubs of China. &#8220;The visit will provide an opportunity for both sides to explore the avenues of economic cooperation and investments particularly in agriculture, industry and energy sectors,&#8221; the Foreign Office spokesman said.

Sources said the president would focus on seeking Chinese cooperation, expertise and investment to tackle the energy crises in Pakistan. He would ask Chinese firms to invest in renewable energy sources.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Hope we will get good news abt J-10s


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## Luftwaffe

I don't like JF-17 color scheme i'd like to see its color scheme that of F7PGs or better like F-16.


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## blain2

Hasnain2009 said:


> President leaves for China today
> 
> Staff Report
> 
> ISLAMABAD: President Asif Ali Zardari will leave for China on Friday (today), on his second visit to the friendly neighbour since assuming office last year.
> 
> He will explore avenues of economic cooperation in various fields, including Chinese investment in Pakistans energy sector.
> 
> During his visit from February 20 to 23, the president will visit Hubei, Yichang and Shanghai  the industrial hubs of China. The visit will provide an opportunity for both sides to explore the avenues of economic cooperation and investments particularly in agriculture, industry and energy sectors, the Foreign Office spokesman said.
> 
> Sources said the president would focus on seeking Chinese cooperation, expertise and investment to tackle the energy crises in Pakistan. He would ask Chinese firms to invest in renewable energy sources.
> 
> Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
> 
> Hope we will get good news abt J-10s



There maybe a news about the signing of the deal with regards to the FC-20, however I would not put money on it. Usually Pakistan-China defence deals are simply covered in news releases under the garb of "x agreements/MoUs were signed" etc. Details come later.

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## Quwa

blain2 said:


> There maybe a news about the signing of the deal with regards to the FC-20, however I would not put money on it. Usually Pakistan-China defence deals are simply covered in news releases under the garb of "x agreements/MoUs were signed" etc. Details come later.


It's not always necessary to have a high profile figure in China to sign it...the first 4 KJ-200 AEW&C were inked out of the blue. For all we know an MoD official will head out to China in a few weeks and PAF will announce it then and there.

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## Neo

Could this be the J-10B/FC-20?


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## Super Falcon

dark black camo on j 10 will be good and desert camo on jf 17 willl be great which camo in our f 16 have it is very boring paf use to present fighter jets like fighter jets not like bamboo


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## Munir

Neo said:


> Could this be the J-10B/FC-20?



Just from engineering point of view Neo... Delta and canards with V tail is not possible. You will have impossible strengthening and accept disfunctional rudder. Fan-art is nice but they never had aviation engineering classes like i did. On the other hand... I suck in producing fan-art...

If it is possible then EF2000 would have it. Do mind that mki is not a delta and the canards are small. And outside the range of the rudders.

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## Munir

Talking about aeronautics. The Indians have shown an big UAV. The most important mistake... Jumping from nothing right towards MALE or even towards Global Hawk aspirations. Since I only look at pictures and structure I can tell that this latest plane is just a mockup. Wooden engine blocks. Laughable rudder. Just look at the T size and the antenna's on the elevator... Furthermore the gear looks almost playmobil and the sandbags in the middle are clearly a sign that there is nothing real in it. The paint job is amaturistic. So whoever wanted to show that they are doing something did a real bad job. I hope the other parties did not look at it. Or it was an cheap advertisement to get foreign aprties involved in another "indeg Indian" product. I am a bit sarcastic but somehow I often have the correct conclusions.

And they already talking about weapons on their Rustum... Well... It will be a major Israeli program and int he end they will buy something Israeli...

DSC01572-781162.JPG (image)


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## Quwa

Speaking of UAVs, H Khan said we'll soon see "locally designed and produced Armed-UAVs (AUAV). I suspect it is either the Turkish TIHA or an indigenous program we haven't heard about yet....


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## shehbazi2001

Munir said:


> Just from engineering point of view Neo... Delta and canards with V tail is not possible. You will have impossible strengthening and accept disfunctional rudder. Fan-art is nice but they never had aviation engineering classes like i did. On the other hand... I suck in producing fan-art...
> 
> If it is possible then EF2000 would have it. Do mind that mki is not a delta and the canards are small. And outside the range of the rudders.




Just for the combination of canards, delta wing and dual fins, take a look at XB-70 Valkyrie bomber. Although it did not enter production, it did prove from engineering point of view that the above combination is possible.

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2077109280037627062rydIEp

Also Su-30 does not have V-tail, yes it has dual vertical fins.

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## Munir

When that bomber was developed it had simple purpose of flying high and fast. They had no idea what the impact would be if the rudder was placed in the wake of canard turbullence... The problems starts being clear with F14... That one has kind of canards and double rudders... They advised that those canards would stay inside! Each time they see something they did not know. 

There is a big difference between the size of a small fighterjet and a bomber. There is a lot of difference how the flight profiles are. And there is something that you surely do not know when you make prototypes. The problems occur often during operational frame.

It is nothing new that if you put a canard in front that causes drag and wake which wil impact the rudder that is placed in the back. Even without a canard you do need to know that two vertical rudders can have impact in they are placed close to eachother (like F15/F14).

About V or normal vertical rudders... If you get terrible airflow you cannot do anything good with them.

Think tank members rule! Good discussion.


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## Munir

Here some basic info. In aviation it is a well known fact. Just adding that canards produce vortices and the rest is the same as the paper explains... 

>>>Unsteady flow phenomena associated with leading-edge vortices


C. Breitsamter, a, 

aInstitute of Aerodynamics, Technische Universit&#228;t M&#252;nchen, Boltzmannstra&#223;e 15, 85748 Garching, Germany


Available online 11 January 2008. 
Abstract

This paper presents selected results from extensive experimental investigations on turbulent flow fields and unsteady surface pressures caused by leading-edge vortices, in particular, for vortex breakdown flow. Such turbulent flows may cause severe dynamic aeroelastic problems like wing and/or fin buffeting on fighter-type aircraft. The wind tunnel models used include a generic delta wing as well as a detailed aircraft configuration of canard-delta wing type. The turbulent flow structures are analyzed by root-mean-square and spectral distributions of velocity and pressure fluctuations. Downstream of bursting local maxima of velocity fluctuations occur in a limited radial range around the vortex center. The corresponding spectra exhibit significant peaks indicating that turbulent kinetic energy is channeled into a narrow band. These quasi-periodic velocity oscillations arise from a helical mode instability of the breakdown flow. Due to vortex bursting there is a characteristic increase in surface pressure fluctuations with increasing angle of attack, especially when the burst location moves closer to the apex. The pressure fluctuations also show dominant frequencies corresponding to those of the velocity fluctuations. Using the measured flow field data, scaling parameters are derived for design purposes. It is shown that a frequency parameter based on the local semi-span and the sinus of angle of attack can be used to estimate the frequencies of dynamic loads evoked by vortex bursting.


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## shehbazi2001

Munir said:


> Here some basic info. In aviation it is a well known fact. Just adding that canards produce vortices and the rest is the same as the paper explains...
> 
> >>>Unsteady flow phenomena associated with leading-edge vortices
> 
> 
> C. Breitsamter, a,
> 
> aInstitute of Aerodynamics, Technische Universität München, Boltzmannstraße 15, 85748 Garching, Germany
> 
> 
> Available online 11 January 2008.
> Abstract
> 
> This paper presents selected results from extensive experimental investigations on turbulent flow fields and unsteady surface pressures caused by leading-edge vortices, in particular, for vortex breakdown flow. Such turbulent flows may cause severe dynamic aeroelastic problems like wing and/or fin buffeting on fighter-type aircraft. The wind tunnel models used include a generic delta wing as well as a detailed aircraft configuration of canard-delta wing type. The turbulent flow structures are analyzed by root-mean-square and spectral distributions of velocity and pressure fluctuations. Downstream of bursting local maxima of velocity fluctuations occur in a limited radial range around the vortex center. The corresponding spectra exhibit significant peaks indicating that turbulent kinetic energy is channeled into a narrow band. These quasi-periodic velocity oscillations arise from a helical mode instability of the breakdown flow. Due to vortex bursting there is a characteristic increase in surface pressure fluctuations with increasing angle of attack, especially when the burst location moves closer to the apex. The pressure fluctuations also show dominant frequencies corresponding to those of the velocity fluctuations. Using the measured flow field data, scaling parameters are derived for design purposes. It is shown that a frequency parameter based on the local semi-span and the sinus of angle of attack can be used to estimate the frequencies of dynamic loads evoked by vortex bursting.




Firstly if you want to quote an article, its good to quote its CONCLUSION part and not the abstract. Abstract is an introduction to the content of the article and Conclusion contains the results of the research article.

Secondly , I dont see any solid reference to the point being discussed. First you referred to structural complexity and then you are referring to turbulence and wake effects etc. But it does not mention that delta, canard and V-tail are incompatible.

The purpose of dual fins mostly is to gain more control of aircraft at high angles of attack. Besides, two small fins are better than one big fin from RCS point of view. Side RCS shall be lower, because one fin will not be visible to the radar.


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## shehbazi2001

Munir said:


> When that bomber was developed it had simple purpose of flying high and fast. They had no idea what the impact would be if the rudder was placed in the wake of canard turbullence... The problems starts being clear with F14... That one has kind of canards and double rudders... They advised that those canards would stay inside! Each time they see something they did not know.
> 
> There is a big difference between the size of a small fighterjet and a bomber. There is a lot of difference how the flight profiles are. And there is something that you surely do not know when you make prototypes. The problems occur often during operational frame.
> 
> It is nothing new that if you put a canard in front that causes drag and wake which wil impact the rudder that is placed in the back. Even without a canard you do need to know that two vertical rudders can have impact in they are placed close to eachother (like F15/F14).
> 
> About V or normal vertical rudders... If you get terrible airflow you cannot do anything good with them.
> 
> Think tank members rule! Good discussion.




Almost all existing vertical fins+elevators face more or less the wake of the canards+wings, whether V-tail or T-tail or dual vertical fin or simple single vertical fin. But this wake effect is serious only at higher angles of attack. To improve controllability at higher angles of attack, designers put dual rudders. But even then the designers have now found methods to address this issue somehow even with a single vertical fin.


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## shehbazi2001

I would also like to add that we should use the words "vertical fin" or "vertical stabilizer" instead of rudder because a "rudder" is only the movable part of a vertical stabilizer.


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## Owais

Munir said:


> Just from engineering point of view Neo... Delta and canards with V tail is not possible. You will have impossible strengthening and accept disfunctional rudder. Fan-art is nice but they never had aviation engineering classes like i did. On the other hand... I suck in producing fan-art...
> 
> If it is possible then EF2000 would have it. Do mind that mki is not a delta and the canards are small. And outside the range of the rudders.




I dont know either it is real or mock-up but This thing have V tail and canards as well

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## lmjiao

I can assure you that the picture above is a fake one made by a military fan with softwares.

From the official newspapers we can conclude that the 5-th generation fighters are under development, but untill now, no pictures or futher information are open to the public.

The only thing that is certain is that all the pictures of Chinese 5-th generation you can get on line is not true.


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## mean_bird

lmjiao said:


> I can assure you that the picture above is a fake one made by a military fan with softwares.
> 
> From the official newspapers we can conclude that the 5-th generation fighters are under development, but untill now, no pictures or futher information are open to the public.
> 
> The only thing that is certain is that all the pictures of Chinese 5-th generation you can get on line is not true.



If thats a photoshop, I must say its a good job.

However, I do remember reading news about the Chinese Military criticizing "certain websites and forums" for leaking "confidential and state secrets" that could be potentially dangerous for national security. 

Add to that, we had seen leaked JF-17 pics very early that turned out to be true.

I am not ruling out PS job here....its getting better each day and we have no shortage of it on the net.


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## ALi Rizwan

what about this mig 1.44


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## zombie:-)

ALi Rizwan said:


> what about this mig 1.44
> 
> 
> 6R2lm2QzCp8[/media] - MIG 1.42/1.44 5th generation Russian fighter Jet


*
same fate as su-37,su-47 berkut IT IS A TECHNOLOGY DEMONSTRATOR*


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## ALi Rizwan

zombie:-) said:


> *
> same fate as su-37,su-47 berkut IT IS A TECHNOLOGY DEMONSTRATOR*



it was for Mr. Munir


> *Munir*
> Just from engineering point of view Neo... Delta and canards with V tail is not possible.


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## Sargodhian_Eagle

Its feb 2009 n J-10 spply vl begin in 2009 bt no anouncmnt is still made
Whn vl this pretty brd arive to Pak Land?????


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## Super Falcon

no clue dude still there is so much confusion about this probleum deal havent signed between pak and china on this topic why our media doesent play their role on this topic day i hope in few of media channel should take interview of ACM on this topic and also speak with ministry of defence officials


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## araz

I dont know what the link of this leak had to do with Gen Kiyani's visit to US. If he is asking for surplus Bl 30/32s this news could be used as fodder to incite the US into agreeing. Otherwise we always have our trusted friends to fall back on.
WaSalam
Araz


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## lmjiao

We don't have enough Russian engins.

So it is of high possibility that the new J-10s will be equiped by Taihang( a chinese engin which has been successfully used in J-10b)


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## Awesome

lmjiao said:


> We don't have enough Russian engins.
> 
> So it is of high possibility that the new J-10s will be equiped by Taihang( a chinese engin which has been successfully used in J-10b)


Didn't China just order like hundreds of new J-10 engines?

China should keep a big stockpile of those engines. Russia throws tantrums every now and then, and the re-export to Pakistan issue might come up again.


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## lmjiao

Asim Aquil said:


> Didn't China just order like hundreds of new J-10 engines?
> 
> China should keep a big stockpile of those engines. Russia throws tantrums every now and then, and the re-export to Pakistan issue might come up again.



I also heard of similar information, but untill now no offical confirmation.

I agree with that China should keep a big stockpile of those engines, but I think they are mainly for reparement of old J-10s equipped by Russian engines.

The Chinese goverment dislike planes with foreign engines, so it tried to use Chinese engines in every fighters, including Su-27 family members, which is now called J-10b.


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## MastanKhan

Asim Aquil said:


> Didn't China just order like hundreds of new J-10 engines?
> 
> China should keep a big stockpile of those engines. Russia throws tantrums every now and then, and the re-export to Pakistan issue might come up again.





Deleted post.


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## TOPGUN

Wat color schme u guys think they will be in grey?


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## pakpower

I guess they will be in Mixed Dark & Light Grey Shades or Shining Grey Shade. Total Guess work.

Does anyone has a rough idea that How many Pakistan will Buy these J-10s in Future what will be roughly Estimates of No of Jets in PAF ?


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## mean_bird

pakpower said:


> I guess they will be in Mixed Dark & Light Grey Shades or Shining Grey Shade. Total Guess work.
> 
> Does anyone has a rough idea that How many Pakistan will Buy these J-10s in Future what will be roughly Estimates of No of Jets in PAF ?



Our total number of hi-end fighters will be around 130-150 (comprising of F-16 and FC-20). If we take around 60-80 F-16s, you can work out the approximate number of J-10s to be inducted. 

My guess would be, we will go for around 36 planes now and a similar number in future.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*There are already a couple of J-10 threads, so what was the point of starting another one?

Especially when the only thing the thread starter wanted to do was ask a question.

Use the existing threads please instead of cluttering up the forum with frivolous threads.

Threads merged.*


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## SU-33

some news said that Pakistan had signned 40 FC-20,
and I think the FC-20 will use chinese engine, maybe also will use some europe's device


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## Hasnain2009

SU-33 said:


> some news said that Pakistan had signned 40 FC-20,
> and I think the FC-20 will use chinese engine, maybe also will use some europe's device



Good news, did u listen this news on chinese channel?? You live in china, you can tell us about FC-20!! Thanks


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## SU-33

Hasnain2009 said:


> Good news, did u listen this news on chinese channel?? You live in china, you can tell us about FC-20!! Thanks



some reporters interviewed Pakistan' air force commander, he said Pakistan had signed FC-20,need 40,
if this news is really, I think Pakistan will get FC-20 after sevel years

The prodcution speed of F10 will faster than befor, it's said now there's two production lines(befor only one)


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## pakpower

u said Reporters so my question is this reporters of some TV Station or some Daily Newspaper. Can you gave the details on that ?

And by the way what is F10?


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## SU-33

F10=J10=&#27516;10

The news is from a chinese magazine <<&#20853;&#24037;&#31185;&#25216;>>
and Canada <<kanwa defense review>>


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## Hayreddin

[url="http://


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## Arsalan

TOPGUN said:


> Wat color schme u guys think they will be in grey?




the dark grey or charcoal black color just as that of the F!% strike eagle will rock!!!


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## hj786

Bottom left - possible colour scheme of PAF F-10A:






Looks pretty sweet.

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## dbc

hj786 said:


> Bottom left - possible colour scheme of PAF F-10A:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks pretty sweet.


Side profile it looks like an F-16 with whiskers..  
it appears more potent than JF-17

It looks great in PAF colors


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## Hayreddin




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## Arsalan

I.Come.In.Peace said:


> Side profile it looks like an F-16 with whiskers..
> it appears more potent than JF-17
> 
> It looks great in PAF colors




for sure it is very much better than the JF17!!

i want to see tem in PAF colors as soon as possible, they will be here by 2010 Inshallah!!


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## mean_bird

PAF to start serial production of JF17 fighter aircraft soon PDF Print E-mail
ISLAMABAD, Mar 7 (APP): With singing of an agreement between Pakistan Air Force and Chinese firm CATIC the serial production of JF&#8209;17 (Thunder) aircraft would start soon. The agreement between PAF and CATIC on the basis of sellers credit was reached at a ceremony held here Saturday, whereby 42 fighter jets would be joitly produced for the use of PAF.


The agreement was signed on behalf of PAF by Chairman Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Air Marshal Khalid Chaudary and President CATIC MA Zhiping which was witnessed by Chief of the Air Staff PAF Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed and Ambassador of China to Pakistan Luo Zhaohui besides other senior officials from both the parties.

Under the agreement the lot of 42 aircraft would be co&#8209;manufactured by China and Pakistan and later these would be inducted in the PAFs fleet.

Talking to media, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed congratulated the peoples and governments of Pakistan and China on conduction of successful tests and trails of the most modern aircraft of its class and signing of agreement for start of their serial production.

He said despite all odds we have been successful to reach the stage of starting serial production of the aircraft.

In the beginning we will produce 15 aircraft annually and their number will increase to 30 in a year &#8209; this programme will be carried out in phases, he said.

He said first squadron of these highest quality fighter jets would be inducted in the PAFs fleet by mid of this year as PAF has already been using 8 jointly produced aircraft for the last couple of years.

This fleet would be raised in Peshawar, he added.

About the delivery of AWACS system to Pakistan, he said that agreement had already been reached with a Chinese firm which would start its delivery by 2010.

On the delivery of first AWACS system Pakistan would pay 10 % cost of the aircraft while the rest would be paid on easy installments basis, he said.

*Answering a question, he said the agreement between Pakistan and China for the delivery of High&#8209;Tech aircraft J&#8209;10 was intact and these aircraft after improving them further would be delivered to PAF in 2014&#8209;15. He said these aircraft are being modernized in accordance with the PAFs requirements and delivered under the title of FC&#8209;20.*
Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan&#039;s Premier NEWS Agency ) - PAF to start serial production of JF17 fighter aircraft soon

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## mean_bird

Is that a boo boo by our journalists or has the plan changed? 2014 is still a long way to go

First the news on that J-10s will be inducted, even the ACM in his interviews earlier had said that. Murad saheb on this forum as well as various respected members on pakdef have report J-10 coming from dec. 2009 to next year. 

This is strange news...Are we buying some now and some later? or waiting till 2014 to get the FC-20...which seems the case if we want the WS-10, and chinese AESA, etc


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## ALi Rizwan

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - PAF to start serial production of JF17 fighter aircraft soon



> Answering a question, he said the agreement between Pakistan and China for the delivery of High&#8209;Tech aircraft J&#8209;10 was intact and *these aircraft after improving them further would be delivered to PAF in 2014&#8209;15*. He said these aircraft are being modernized in accordance with the PAFs requirements and delivered under the title of FC&#8209;20.



*Is it j-10 A or J-10 B? *


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## hj786

But sir MuradK, pshamim and others with inside contacts have all confirmed that 36 J-10A (F-10A) will be in Pakistan by the end of this year and/or early next year. 

Couldn't the Air Chief simply be referring to the modified variant FC-20, perhaps the same/similar to J-10B (aka Super-10 by the Russians)?


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## mean_bird

hj786 said:


> But sir MuradK, pshamim and others with inside contacts have all confirmed that 36 J-10A (F-10A) will be in Pakistan by the end of this year and/or early next year.
> 
> Couldn't the Air Chief simply be referring to the modified variant FC-20, perhaps the same/similar to J-10B (aka Super-10 by the Russians)?



That's definitely a possibility since he said : "*after improving them further* would be delivered to PAF in 2014&#8209;15."

Its very confusing... J-10, FC-20, new aircraft by pak and china in 2012 (as reported by pshamim).

First of all we need to clear this up...lets see what the other newspaper have to say tomorrow as our journalists can't really be trusted in dates or names.


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## fatman17

mean_bird said:


> Is that a boo boo by our journalists or has the plan changed? 2014 is still a long way to go
> 
> First the news on that J-10s will be inducted, even the ACM in his interviews earlier had said that. Murad saheb on this forum as well as various respected members on pakdef have report J-10 coming from dec. 2009 to next year.
> 
> This is strange news...Are we buying some now and some later? or waiting till 2014 to get the FC-20...which seems the case if we want the WS-10, and chinese AESA, etc



2014-15 was always the plan for induction of the FC-20. it is posters on this forum who have decided to change the induction date for the FC-20.

it is amazing that we are still not believing what the ACM has stated!

arm-chair ACMs should be careful in future!

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## Quwa

Regarding the ACM dates, seems PAF will get J-10B in 2014-2015.


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## pakpower

The Bottom Line is that We dont have enough money to get these birds in our colours so that's we are getting these jets so late as we expected earlier. And surely the dates which ACM or News paper mentions is far far far away right now.


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## mean_bird

fatman17 said:


> 2014-15 was always the plan for induction of the FC-20. it is posters on this forum who have decided to change the induction date for the FC-20.



Well Murad sahib on this forum as well as other senior members and respected on pakdef had also said that the first J-10 would be arriving in Dec 2009 and a squadron ready by April 2010.

Ofcourse the FC-20 (or improved J-10) would be inducted in 2014-15... but I was wondering in some J-10A would be sought before on soft loans as was confirmed by these senior and respected members.


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## All-Green

The time line given by ACM is realistic if we take into consideration the hinted improvements which are to be made on the J-10 platform to make it FC-20.
I think Pakistan would have decided all of this taking into account the threat being faced currently and risk assessment of delaying delivery of J-10 (if it was to be delivered in 2009 it would certainly not be FC-20) to make sure we get FC-20 and not J-10A.
Maybe the delivery of F-16 BLK 52 and MLU for existing fleet is considered certain by Armed Forces (a lot of US/China visits by military and government of Pakistan delegations lately) and they can wait a bit more for the FC-20 instead of going with J-10A.
Personally i would have even preferred J-10As at this point in time to enhance PAF capability (if we had the money) but clearly we are not privy to all the details and i think this would have been the best option for PAF since budget limitations dictate that we spend money where it is worth spending.
Upgrading F-16s is a good step since we already have them but buying brand new J-10A fighters and then immediately upgrading after 4-5 years may not be a very bright idea.
If we get J-10A now and decide to upgrade later to FC-20 it may not be possible and would certainly not be cost effective.

One can hope that this decision is the result of a well thought out strategy by those responsible keeping in mind all the factors.


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## Luftwaffe

maybe a slight touch and other structural changes like EF2000 for the 2014 fleet of FC-20 who knows.


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## hj786

All-Green said:


> Maybe the delivery of F-16 BLK 52 and MLU for existing fleet is considered certain by Armed Forces (a lot of US/China visits by military and government of Pakistan delegations lately) and they can wait a bit more for the FC-20 instead of going with J-10A.
> Personally i would have even preferred J-10As at this point in time to enhance PAF capability (if we had the money) but clearly we are not privy to all the details and i think this would have been the best option for PAF since budget limitations dictate that we spend money where it is worth spending.
> Upgrading F-16s is a good step since we already have them but buying brand new J-10A fighters and then immediately upgrading after 4-5 years may not be a very bright idea.
> If we get J-10A now and decide to upgrade later to FC-20 it may not be possible and would certainly not be cost effective.



But PAF surely are getting J-10A at the end of this year, insiders on two different forums have confirmed it. The air chief said it in an older interview as well, F-10A over the next couple of years and then "high tech" FC-20 later.
Even in this latest interview, somebody said the air chief's comments on J-10 were added to by the Chinese representative, who said something like "but the first aeroplanes will fly in Pakistan this year". This is almost certainly pointing at J-10, since JF has been flying in Pakistan for the last two years. 

One more point. I don't see how buying J-10A now and FC-20 later is not cost effective. The main difference is expected to be new radar and engine, and they may even be able to retro-fit the J-10A with those.


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## araz

hj786 said:


> But PAF surely are getting J-10A at the end of this year, insiders on two different forums have confirmed it. The air chief said it in an older interview as well, F-10A over the next couple of years and then "high tech" FC-20 later.
> Even in this latest interview, somebody said the air chief's comments on J-10 were added to by the Chinese representative, who said something like "but the first aeroplanes will fly in Pakistan this year". This is almost certainly pointing at J-10, since JF has been flying in Pakistan for the last two years.
> 
> One more point. I don't see how buying J-10A now and FC-20 later is not cost effective. The main difference is expected to be new radar and engine, and they may even be able to retro-fit the J-10A with those.



ACM in one of his interviews said hat we will get J10s and also acquire FC20s. Having said that it seems that we will wait and go for FC20s there being no present threat to our sovereignty (at least an external one!!!). I think there was a message sent out to the parties concerned that PAF does have options and can exercise them rapidly if needed so dont mess around with us!! It obviously has worked and we are back on schedule with time lines for induction for FC20s. Though the number could end up being higher, than the40or so , suspect it iwill be done in batches.
Araz

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## pakpower

Pakistan has not enought power to get more then 40 Planes even in year 2015. These all hypocriates Politiican will fill their pockets instead of buying jets for the defence of the company.


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## All-Green

hj786 said:


> But PAF surely are getting J-10A at the end of this year, insiders on two different forums have confirmed it. The air chief said it in an older interview as well, F-10A over the next couple of years and then "high tech" FC-20 later.
> Even in this latest interview, somebody said the air chief's comments on J-10 were added to by the Chinese representative, who said something like "but the first aeroplanes will fly in Pakistan this year". This is almost certainly pointing at J-10, since JF has been flying in Pakistan for the last two years.
> 
> One more point. I don't see how buying J-10A now and FC-20 later is not cost effective. The main difference is expected to be new radar and engine, and they may even be able to retro-fit the J-10A with those.



Me thinks that had situation been out of control, PAF would certainly have gone with J-10A at this stage and i also clearly stated that it would have been my strategy (even in current scenario).
However i think that maybe in light of threat assessment and cost analysis, it may come to pass that we do not see J-10A at all in PAF but direct induction of FC-20.

I do not have any inside link but if we assume that FC-20 may have significantly better engines, structural changes/enhancements, TVC, enhanced Radar and avionics; it will certainly bear a tremendous cost to fit these modifications to J-10A and may even not be possible (limitations are always there).
I think it is quite logical to assume that it will be cost effective to buy the FC-20 instead of buying J-10A and then upgrading (if possible).

Maybe i am proven wrong and we get J-10A this year...
I would love to be wrong here


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## hj786

araz said:


> ACM in one of his interviews said hat we will get J10s and also acquire FC20s. Having said that it seems that we will wait and go for FC20s there being no present threat to our sovereignty (at least an external one!!!). I think there was a message sent out to the parties concerned that PAF does have options and can exercise them rapidly if needed so dont mess around with us!! It obviously has worked and we are back on schedule with time lines for induction for FC20s. Though the number could end up being higher, than the40or so , suspect it iwill be done in batches.
> Araz


I disagree, sir Muradk on this forum and (I think) pshamim on another forum, both ex PAF pilots, have stated very very recently that J-10A will be in Pakistan late this year/early next year. I don't see why PAF would change their mind so quickly.


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## melb4aust

hj786 said:


> I disagree, sir Muradk on this forum and (I think) pshamim on another forum, both ex PAF pilots, have stated very very recently that J-10A will be in Pakistan late this year/early next year. I don't see why PAF would change their mind so quickly.



A new Air chief may do so........

Even though claimed by some authentic sources like sir Muradk or others, it seemed pretty unlikely that FC-20 to be inducted into PAF without installing western avionics or some other major add-on's along with its maturization as per PAF requirements.


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## hj786

melb4aust said:


> A new Air chief may do so........


The new Air Chief may cancel F-16 MLU program, stop buying any more than first 42 JF, cancel the ZDK-03 contract... the list can go on. 



melb4aust said:


> Even though claimed by some authentic sources like sir Muradk or others, it seemed pretty unlikely that FC-20 to be inducted into PAF without installing western avionics or some other major add-on's along with its maturization as per PAF requirements.


The first 36 J-10 that should be delivered late this year/early next year will not be FC-20! They will be J-10A, designated F-10A according to ex-Air Chief Tanvir M. Ahmad. 

It also seemed unlikely that PAF would induct JF without installing western avionics, but they did. They didn't make any Western add-ons to the JF at all, why would they need to do so on the J-10? It is supposed to be more capable than JF, JF uses technology from the J-10 (according to Jane's, the JF's KLJ-7 radar is a smaller version of the J-10's KLJ-10 radar).


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## notorious_eagle

I agree, i think the J10A program is still on track but even if its stopped i dont think there is anything wrong with that. PAF will get even better planes by 2014 or 2015, i have heard from several sources that J10B should be better or as good as Eurofighter. I know for a fact that PAF pilots who have evaluated both EF and J10 believe that J10 has more potential than EF. J10 is more maneuverable; but if better sensors, avionics and radars are added to the package(which the Chinese are working on) it can give the EF a fight for its money. 
P.S. HJ786; i dont think PAF is looking specifically for Western avionics or radars, i think they will be more comfortable if they can add on better Chinese avionics or radars which are equavilent or better to their western counterparts.


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## melb4aust

hj786 said:


> The new Air Chief may cancel F-16 MLU program, stop buying any more than first 42 JF, cancel the ZDK-03 contract... the list can go on.



you're taking my statement into totally different context. I would like to see J-10 in PAF colours as much as all other pakistani members on this forum



hj786 said:


> The first 36 J-10 that should be delivered late this year/early next year will not be FC-20! They will be J-10A, designated F-10A according to ex-Air Chief Tanvir M. Ahmad.



I Wish they do so.....



hj786 said:


> It also seemed unlikely that PAF would induct JF without installing western avionics, but they did. They didn't make any Western add-ons to the JF at all, why would they need to do so on the J-10? It is supposed to be more capable than JF, JF uses technology from the J-10 (according to Jane's, the JF's KLJ-7 radar is a smaller version of the J-10's KLJ-10 radar).



JF-17 and J-10 are totally different projects and Aircrafts, JF-17 is pakistan's necessity, its a joint venture and as we all know Pakistan is contributing abt50% of the whole project, they have to have to put efforts in order to make it better plane as it will become the back bone of PAF. They are still working on on it as they have to perform XYZ tests before induction.

While J-10 is altogether a different story, Pakistan would definately like to induct this plane in a premature state along with lots of improvements, rather than a plane with basic gadgets and avionics, if not par but as close as to Block-52. 

Right now i dont think they are in such hurry to induct J-10 and there is such a need, when there is room to wait for further improvements as per PAF standards. Rest, god knows what will happen!


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## hj786

melb4aust said:


> Right now i dont think they are in such hurry to induct J-10 and there is such a need, when there is room to wait for further improvements as per PAF standards. Rest, god knows what will happen!


I agree, but we should insult our inside sources by saying their information is wrong just because of some news report. That report does not talk about PAF J-10A being cancelled at all, it only talks about a high tech variant, FC-20. You are right, we'll have to wait and see what happens!


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## melb4aust

hj786 said:


> I agree, but we should insult our inside sources by saying their information is wrong just because of some news report. That report does not talk about PAF J-10A being cancelled at all, it only talks about a high tech variant, FC-20. You are right, we'll have to wait and see what happens!



Again wrong, i m not insulting any1 ( i never do ) and neither do i have to follow any news or media posts, its just an simple opinion my friend.


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## All-Green

hj786 said:


> I agree, but we should insult our inside sources by saying their information is wrong just because of some news report. That report does not talk about PAF J-10A being cancelled at all, it only talks about a high tech variant, FC-20. You are right, we'll have to wait and see what happens!



Personally speaking i am in favor of J-10A induction now to give PAF more bite at this stage and discourage adventurism by any other nation over Pakistan soil.
However threat assessment is responsibility of PAF and GOP and if they prefer to get all jets on FC-20 standard in 2014-15 then that can be acceptable as well (provided they do their homework).
Hopefully it shall all be clear by end of this year.

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## PAFAce

The PAF is probably the only national institution that is visibly making some effort to improve right now. Good job. With all this talk of F-10s and FC-20s, I can almost see the hours of effort that is being put in by the personnel in decision making positions.

As for the F-10/J-10A, I believe that had the relationship with India not deteriorated suddenly, Pakistan would have held off until the proper upgrades could be made. As has been discussed above, if we _do_ get the F-10s, it will be because the PAF wants to make up for any shortfalls in case of hostile activities from our neighbour in the short term. 

Acquiring F-10s, however, will definitely not be beneficial for us in the long term because 10 years down the road, we'd much rather have a greater number of FC-20s than a mixture of some F-10s and some FC-20s. Also, by not getting the F-10s now, the PAF may be able to rid itself of a huge logistical task, that of operating many different weapon systems at the same time. This is a problem which the PAF faces today because we currently operate a weird and unique combination of American, French and Chinese systems. If, 10 years down the road, we operate only Chinese/Pakistani and some European/American systems, it will reduce the logistical workload immensely. 

Just my two cents.

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## IceCold

What if we keep our focus only on the development of the JF-17 and the purchase of F-16s used ones i am talking about and getting our hands on as many as we could and latter upgrading them to mlu standards. I don't see our relations with the US dying anytime soon, not till the time they are in afghanistan. Also we can still exercise the option for the purchase of 18 more F-16s block 52 once we start getting the deliveries from the previous order. Moreover the higher our order will be, the less likely it will be for the americans to sanction us after all Lockhead will continue its plant of F-16s meaning americans won't loose their job which other wise would be pretty soon out of one.

J-10 or Fc-20 can be acquired at a latter stage once the jet reaches its true potential i.e by 2014-15. By that time the jet would be on par with the EF or the rafale something that will be needed to counter India's MRCA.

This is however my personal opinion and we can all agree to disagree.

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## pakpower

> J-10 or Fc-20 can be acquired at a latter stage once the jet reaches its true potential i.e by 2014-15. By that time the jet would be on par with the EF or the rafale something that will be needed to counter India's MRCA.
> 
> This is however my personal opinion and we can all agree to disagree.



Hi dude how are you Yaar you are right in your opinion I m 100% with you on this stance of yours. But I wanna clear this up that are you also against the quick purchae of F-10s now in this year or may be 2010 ? or you happy to get these birds in 2014-2015 ? 

What you say ?


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## Mav3rick

PAFAce said:


> The PAF is probably the only national institution that is visibly making some effort to improve right now. Good job. With all this talk of F-10s and FC-20s, I can almost see the hours of effort that is being put in by the personnel in decision making positions.
> 
> As for the F-10/J-10A, I believe that had the relationship with India not deteriorated suddenly, Pakistan would have held off until the proper upgrades could be made. As has been discussed above, if we _do_ get the F-10s, it will be because the PAF wants to make up for any shortfalls in case of hostile activities from our neighbour in the short term.
> 
> Acquiring F-10s, however, will definitely not be beneficial for us in the long term because 10 years down the road, we'd much rather have a greater number of FC-20s than a mixture of some F-10s and some FC-20s. Also, by not getting the F-10s now, the PAF may be able to rid itself of a huge logistical task, that of operating many different weapon systems at the same time. This is a problem which the PAF faces today because we currently operate a weird and unique combination of American, French and Chinese systems. If, 10 years down the road, we operate only Chinese/Pakistani and some European/American systems, it will reduce the logistical workload immensely.
> 
> Just my two cents.



Most of you guys have missed the most important thing about acquiring any new technology.......training! If we acquire 2 squadrons of J-10's today our pilots will have 10 years of extensive training and experience on the upcoming advanced models instead of having to start off fresh. I'd rather my pilots be more trained and experienced today then 10 years later!

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## spurdozer

Guys What I understand from the developing situation is that first PAF wants to get it's hands on F-16 Block-52 and then after studying and evaluating the plane would order the J-10 As or Bs designated the FC-20 according to it's own hi-tech specifications. Ofcourse this is just my opinion and don't have the knowledge possesed by Sir Muradk or Sir Pshamim to disagree with them.


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## Comet

I think that both of these jets are a real time requirement. And PAF will go for both of these.


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## araz

hj786 said:


> I disagree, sir Muradk on this forum and (I think) pshamim on another forum, both ex PAF pilots, have stated very very recently that J-10A will be in Pakistan late this year/early next year. I don't see why PAF would change their mind so quickly.



hj786
I have the utmost of respect for both the gentlemen you have mentioned and sir muradk is a friend as well. I remember what they both said. The only reason i commented on this issue was that the timeline in view of all the other acquisitions seemed wrong to my inexpert eye. i would love to see PAF having J10s but it now seems more and more likely that we will get FC20 in 2014-15. Also please remember that even Sir Muradk had said that these are not like cars. there are certain issues that need to be resolved and the chinese are very careful in their sales(or something to that tune)
waSalam
Araz.

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## araz

IceCold said:


> What if we keep our focus only on the development of the JF-17 and the purchase of F-16s used ones i am talking about and getting our hands on as many as we could and latter upgrading them to mlu standards. I don't see our relations with the US dying anytime soon, not till the time they are in afghanistan. Also we can still exercise the option for the purchase of 18 more F-16s block 52 once we start getting the deliveries from the previous order. Moreover the higher our order will be, the less likely it will be for the americans to sanction us after all Lockhead will continue its plant of F-16s meaning americans won't loose their job which other wise would be pretty soon out of one.
> 
> J-10 or Fc-20 can be acquired at a latter stage once the jet reaches its true potential i.e by 2014-15. By that time the jet would be on par with the EF or the rafale something that will be needed to counter India's MRCA.
> 
> This is however my personal opinion and we can all agree to disagree.



There is nothing wrong with your strategy. However, the airframes that PAF has looked at are all heavily used, and hence PAF is reluctant to take on more F16s. I also am not certain what the implications of getting bl 32/42 would be with regards to setup and infrastructure. Also consider that PAF has so far only wanted its own Bl15OCUs back, 12 of these are with navy and US has offered to give us Block 30s in exchange to which PAF does not appear to be too enthusiasti(atleast outwardly)
the other thing is how much is the US will ing to sell us more F16s in view of the opposition it faces in the congress. 
Lastly, I think it was calculated that a new Block 52 cost PAF 82 million per plane. Compared to that FC20 would be half the cost, better capability and more upgradable.
In the light of the above i support PAfs current policy of continuing with limited numbers of F16s along with MLUs ,and improve and induct Thunders and FC20s as the platforms mature.
WaSalam
Araz


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## IceCold

araz said:


> There is nothing wrong with your strategy. However, the airframes that PAF has looked at are all heavily used, and hence PAF is reluctant to take on more F16s. I also am not certain what the implications of getting bl 32/42 would be with regards to setup and infrastructure. Also consider that PAF has so far only wanted its own Bl15OCUs back, 12 of these are with navy and US has offered to give us Block 30s in exchange to which PAF does not appear to be too enthusiasti(atleast outwardly)
> the other thing is how much is the US will ing to sell us more F16s in view of the opposition it faces in the congress.
> Lastly, I think it was calculated that a new Block 52 cost PAF 82 million per plane. Compared to that FC20 would be half the cost, better capability and more upgradable.
> *In the light of the above i support PAfs current policy of continuing with limited numbers of F16s along with MLUs ,and improve and induct Thunders and FC20s as the platforms mature.*
> WaSalam
> Araz



Sir how do you see the current rumor as most members are stating here which is PAF getting J-10 initially by the end of 2009 and then by 2014 perhaps we will get the FC-20, version specifically built for Pakistan i would say. I mean if we consider the above rumor to be true, don't you think it will only add to cost maintaining 2 different type of platforms for an already budget constraint airforce. 
About the older F-16s i agree with the most part, however one point i do want to bring it to your attention if it isn't already that PAF is not only interested in older F-16s from the US, but from where ever it can get it hands on, and in the light of that is it safe to assume that when Turkey will move towards the JSF, their F-16s can be bought my Pakistan and if yes then it wouldn't be a bad idea, certainly cost effective as well.


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## PAFAce

Mav3rick said:


> Most of you guys have missed the most important thing about acquiring any new technology.......training! If we acquire 2 squadrons of J-10's today our pilots will have 10 years of extensive training and experience on the upcoming advanced models instead of having to start off fresh. I'd rather my pilots be more trained and experienced today then 10 years later!



We will have the proper training with hi-tech aircrafts once we get our MLUs and B/52s. Also, 10 years down the road, a larger number of better jets will be more beneficial. F-10s will only be bought if the PAF feels it needs to quickly catch up to the IAF in the short term, period.

One advantage of F-10s will be that, in case of an all out war, Pakistan could "loan" more F-10/J-10As from the Chinese until the end of the war (since we will already know how to operate them). I am not sure, however, how realistic this situation is. I had heard rumors of Chinese jets in Pakistan during the 2002/03 stand-off between Pakistan and India, but it was never really confirmed.

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## Patriot

IceCold said:


> Sir how do you see the current rumor as most members are stating here which is PAF getting J-10 initially by the end of 2009 and then by 2014 perhaps we will get the FC-20, version specifically built for Pakistan i would say. I mean if we consider the above rumor to be true, don't you think it will only add to cost maintaining 2 different type of platforms for an already budget constraint airforce.
> About the older F-16s i agree with the most part, however one point i do want to bring it to your attention if it isn't already that PAF is not only interested in older F-16s from the US, but from where ever it can get it hands on, and in the light of that is it safe to assume that when Turkey will move towards the JSF, their F-16s can be bought my Pakistan and if yes then it wouldn't be a bad idea, certainly cost effective as well.


That's a very good idea.If PAF can maintain 30 years+ old Mirages I am sure they can also maintain old F'16s of Turkey and other countries which are willing to sell them.


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## hj786

melb4aust said:


> Again wrong, i m not insulting any1 ( i never do ) and neither do i have to follow any news or media posts, its just an simple opinion my friend.


I didn't say you insulted anybody brother, I was also posting my opinion. 



PAFAce said:


> We will have the proper training with hi-tech aircrafts once we get our MLUs and B/52s.


 But J-10 is a completely different aircraft. Surely different performance, different capabilities require different tactics? I agree with Mav3rick.



PAFAce said:


> Also, 10 years down the road, a larger number of better jets will be more beneficial.


If the Chinese design the J-10B's radar/avionics upgrades to fit old J-10A (F-10A) as well, then that point is moot. They have a large fleet of J-10A themselves, surely they would want commonality with the J-10B. 
The F-16 MLU will have the same radar and avionics as the brand new block 52 models. If they can do that to the 20-30 year old F-16A, I think they can do it to the J-10A.


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## PAFAce

hj786 said:


> If the Chinese design the J-10B's radar/avionics upgrades to fit old J-10A (F-10A) as well, then that point is moot. They have a large fleet of J-10A themselves, surely they would want commonality with the J-10B.



You are correct, I did not take upgrades into coinsideration when I presented my analysis. However, you can probably already guess, the overall cost of purchasing F-10s now and upgrading them to FC-20 standards later will definitely be higher than just purchsing the FC-20s when they are ready. As for the Chinese, they can definitely afford mass upgradations of this manner, but even they may choose not to. I think that if a reasonable offer is made to them by a customer for their old J-10As, they could sell them off and re-equip with J-10Bs, simply because they can afford to. 

Also, every plane has a fixed amount of upgradability, and the F-10, after being upgraded to FC-20 standards, may not be upgradable in the future. This has already happened with the F-16s and Mirages. Both these platforms have pretty much reached their maximum capability through upgradation, and only significant technological breakthroughs could possibly make them better.

Therefore, I summarize my position: If the PAF feels that they need to quickly strengthen up to face potential threats in the short term (2009 to 2012), F-10s are probably our most best choice and I am all for them. However, if there is no real threat in the short term, or if existing threats subside, then the PAF should definitely wait for technology to mature, and then purchase the better product. This is the more economic choice in both the short and long term, and will eventually result in a stronger Air Force.

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## mean_bird

Some info/rumor about the FC-20 posted from pakdef

** PAF is likely to seek for 36 FC-20 that will cost around $1.5 Billion. All of which are expected to be single seat variants. Earlier there were rumors elsewhere about 40 FC-20 (36 single seater + 4 double seaters). 

*PAF is more likely to go for western avionics/Radar (could have some commonality atleast as in same manufacturer with JF-17???)

*It will be capable of firing a variety of missiles

* J-10 has a high rate of Acceleration and Climb that will help in Short Take Off ; Its high thrust will also enable near vertical climb. 
(can also be seen on youtube videos: search J-10 outclasses F-22 climb rate)

* Rumored to have Intermittent super cruise
*

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## IceCold

mean_bird said:


> This aircraft *may* turn out to be more capable than the Block-50 F-16 we will have



There is a huge may in it. May i add that PAF had the option to go for the J-10 all along, yet we choose to go down the difficult road of acquiring the F-16s block 52 that is which means that PAF was not impressed. 
Block52 is something that is yet to be matched by anything the Chinese have to offer. J-10 has the potential and there is no doubt that the ones we are gonna get i.e FC-20 by 2014 will be on par with the latest generation western fighters however this is 2009 and there is a huge gap in between which needs to be full filled and F-16 does that imo.


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## asaad-ul-islam

*A NOTE TO EVERYONE, PLEASE READ:*

I urge everyone to show restraint when posting news of future Pakistani developments. *Please do not openly post pshamim's statements*, especially on other forums besides Pakdef. He isn't comfortable with that, and only gives us news expecting it to stay within the thread he posts in. Please keep in mind, there should be a degree of secrecy, and we should avoid posting of excitement (something which even I have trouble containing). there has even been a case of someone being court-martialed on Pakdef, and news leaks can even irk the Chinese.

let's avoid posting news from private sources, and instead rely on official news sources. as good as a person's news may sound, it should not be used in arguments and discussions. Let's also tell others to do the same, just in case they haven't read this message. Thank You!

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## was



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## was



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## was



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## was



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## was



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## wangrong

*J10 #02*

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## mean_bird

asaad-ul-islam said:


> *A NOTE TO EVERYONE, PLEASE READ:*
> 
> I urge everyone to show restraint when posting news of future Pakistani developments. *Please do not openly post pshamim's statements*, especially on other forums besides Pakdef. He isn't comfortable with that, and only gives us news expecting it to stay within the thread he posts in. Please keep in mind, there should be a degree of secrecy, and we should avoid posting of excitement (something which even I have trouble containing). there has even been a case of someone being court-martialed on Pakdef, and news leaks can even irk the Chinese.
> 
> let's avoid posting news from private sources, and instead rely on official news sources. as good as a person's news may sound, it should not be used in arguments and discussions. Let's also tell others to do the same, just in case they haven't read this message. Thank You!



I believe this post was prompted by my post quoting Shamim sahib from pakdef.

Firstly, I accept that it wasn't really a smart thing from my side to quote someone from another forum with his permission. I had edited and reworded the post and hope to be more careful in future about such things.

However, this is a forum that is wide open to all internet users. So I do not think anything once posted remains or maintains any degree of secrecy. This forum or pakdef or any other forum is open for public viewing so any post is open for all to see. If anyone wanted to know about these "secret tidbits", I don't think he would rely on some other person to quote this news. He would just go ahead and read it. You do not even have to register to read any of those. 

He, himself, has said that he doesn't post news until it has been reported by atleast a certain part of the media. In this case, the FC-20 project is common knowledge and publicly acknowledged. Even the further improvement part has been publicly stated. The role, climb rate, etc are all public knowledge and I am sure those who wanted to know about it specially would know far more than the public knows.

I do not believe any information once posted on an open forum has any "secrecy" left to it but thanks for your reminder and I shall be careful in future.

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## spurdozer

thanks wangrong and was. cool pics


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## araz

mean_bird said:


> I believe this post was prompted by my post quoting Shamim sahib from pakdef.
> 
> Firstly, I accept that it wasn't really a smart thing from my side to quote someone from another forum with his permission. I had edited and reworded the post and hope to be more careful in future about such things.
> 
> However, this is a forum that is wide open to all internet users. So I do not think anything once posted remains or maintains any degree of secrecy. This forum or pakdef or any other forum is open for public viewing so any post is open for all to see. If anyone wanted to know about these "secret tidbits", I don't think he would rely on some other person to quote this news. He would just go ahead and read it. You do not even have to register to read any of those.
> 
> He, himself, has said that he doesn't post news until it has been reported by atleast a certain part of the media. In this case, the FC-20 project is common knowledge and publicly acknowledged. Even the further improvement part has been publicly stated. The role, climb rate, etc are all public knowledge and I am sure those who wanted to know about it specially would know far more than the public knows.
> 
> I do not believe any information once posted on an open forum has any "secrecy" left to it but thanks for your reminder and I shall be careful in future.



I would like to ad that in addition to what mean bird has already said, the only reason that we have mentioned his name is to give him credit for the information provided. As mean bird has already mentioned once he has made a post in an open forum, it is common knowledge and accessible to everyone. However, in respect of the above mentioned member, all that I can say is that I will post only in think tank forum, which will deprive members of availing good news
WaSalam
Araz


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## araz

IceCold said:


> Sir how do you see the current rumor as most members are stating here which is PAF getting J-10 initially by the end of 2009 and then by 2014 perhaps we will get the FC-20, version specifically built for Pakistan i would say. I mean if we consider the above rumor to be true, don't you think it will only add to cost maintaining 2 different type of platforms for an already budget constraint airforce.
> About the older F-16s i agree with the most part, however one point i do want to bring it to your attention if it isn't already that PAF is not only interested in older F-16s from the US, but from where ever it can get it hands on, and in the light of that is it safe to assume that when Turkey will move towards the JSF, their F-16s can be bought my Pakistan and if yes then it wouldn't be a bad idea, certainly cost effective as well.



Icey
My background in totally non defence so I am as good as anybody else in hazarding a guess. With this proviso, I will attempt to answer your querry.
I think that one of the reasons for floating this news was as a message to some parties to not interfere in the PAF acquisition plans. Secondly, it was a ploy to cover for any deficiencies that our enemies might have percieved in our defence. The timelines were possible and knowing PAK- China relationship, and the previous acquisitions on fast track, it was doable as well. 
However, it is not just about getting a new platform, it is also about money, infrastructure and training needs of our aces.From that point I deduce that the time for PAFs acquisition of J10 in its present condition has come and gone(as tensions have subsided in the subcontinent). The 2014/25 timeline makes sense and we will get the right plane at that time for a fantastic cost. It will probably have western avionics and maybe other goodies that may be required although with the chinese aviation industry coming of age, all that we can see at this time is PAF will assess the situation closer to the time.Again there is a news to the effect that all the FC20s will be ingle seaters. This leaves a big gap in our training needs which does not make sense to me personally.
As to the F16 issue, PAF may be interested, but the matter is of finding airframes tha t have not been run into the ground..the turks work their planes hard as they have to show off to the Greeks,so the chances of getting good frames from he are remote. However, if they decide to go for later blocks3040 planes, there will be infrastructure issues which is why PAF is reluctant to take them on.
With JSF induction and retirement of F16s you have to remember that we are talking of 3-5 yrs from now.The Turks will start by upgrdingtheir oldest planes first. Then there would be the cost of upgrading the plane(10-12 million perunit if i am not mistaken). I think it would be better to go down the J10/Thunder route and develop and acquire brand new planes that will keep us going for 20 yrs.
I hope it makes sense to you.
WaSalam
Araz

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## Munir

Some mistake...

Introduction on a larger scale of the JSF is around 2020. Till that F16 block52 (mostly upgraded) would probably the most used fighterjet. We have to wait and see which numbers F22 will be. Around 2012 they will only release a few test versions of JSF for the customers.


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## spurdozer

I don't know about Icey but it made sense to me & answered some of the questions in my mind! Thanks Araz sir!


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## sergente rehan

Thanks for the awesome pics!!


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## TOPGUN

Great pic's thx!


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## pshamim

I just happened to visit your forum It is quite informative and a very good discussion going on. 
I also saw my name mentioned here. Thanks!.

I like to say that I usually do not post anything that can have an adverse effect on the safety and security of Pakistan, nor I post anything secret. Some of this information is already on the open sourse. You can quote me anythime you borrow anythinmg from post on Pakdef by giving due credit to Pakdef.
Thanks again.

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## Neo

Its an honor to have you here Sir. Hope you'll continue to visit and support humble forum. 

Thank you!


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## araz

pshamim said:


> I just happened to visit your forum It is quite informative and a very good discussion going on.
> I also saw my name mentioned here. Thanks!.
> 
> I like to say that I usually do not post anything that can have an adverse effect on the safety and security of Pakistan, nor I post anything secret. Some of this information is already on the open sourse. You can quote me anythime you borrow anythinmg from post on Pakdef by giving due credit to Pakdef.
> Thanks again.



PShamim Saheb .
It is really a pleasure to see you on this forum. Welcome. We can now say that we get postings from two of PAFs greats--yourselves and Sir MuradK your course mate. We would love to see you post here as well please. 
We understand the process of posting news but felt clarifications were needed after Asad,s posts. If I post a news from another forum , I always give credit to the poster as do a lot of the other posters here. We are fully cognizant of the fact that no Ex PAF hero would ever divulge anything contrary to PAFs interest nor would we want you to. Hope to see you on this forum as well as our sister forum.
WaSalam
Araz


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## wangrong

*J10s*



*FC20#01*

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## adnan1479

finally - - a solid and credible post backed by proper photos.
good work wangrong.

it looks great. my prayers for a successful flight test programme for that prototype.

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## hj786

Wow. Is it just me, or does that thing have a divertless supersonic intake, just like in the J-10B computer-generated pictures and in the F-16 DSI demonstrator? 
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/2000/articles/july_00/divertless_1.html
I didn't think they would put one on the J-10. It is larger than JF, so has more spare space for proper variable geometry inlets. I also read somewhere it restricts max. speed to around Mach 2-ish, dunno if that is true though.

The nose is a different shape too, new radar? I hope it's a PESA if not an AESA.
What is the thing next to the windscreen? An in-flight refuelling probe, or an IRST sensor?
Why are the vertical stabiliser (tail fin) and edge of the wing circled? I can't see any difference to normal J-10 side view:
http://www.airlinebuzz.com/chickenworks/images/FR_J10s_Bw.jpg

Thank you wangrong sir, please post any other pictures that you find.


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## Awesome

Regular J-10






Can you guys explain the differences as well?


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## Myth_buster_1

woow niceee... at first sight it looks like another PS job but if you analyze it carefully then you can see some realistic details. 
- IRST
- DSI "air intake"
- extended nose cone.
- longer nose antenna suggesting that the radar is still in testing phase 
- and forgot the term but notice the big dot just above the exhaust nozzle on the rudder. 

hope its real..


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## wangrong



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## wangrong

IRST


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## wangrong

DSI "air intake" like this


J10's CG

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## wangrong

radar

According to customer request &#65288;PESA or AESA&#65289;

PESA is cheaper than AESA


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## wangrong

Wing peak tank 
Vertical stabilizer electron cabin 
Engine
.........

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## Kharian_Beast

Wow...depending on the authenticity of that picture, many of us were right all along regarding certain upgrades...

FC-20 is going to not only neutralize the SU30MKI threat but be a major player and probably leader in the legit 4.5 generation fighter league. 

AESA radar may be fitted on J-10B on top of the visible differences

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## wangrong

They are different between #01 and #0X

the picture is #01


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## notorious_eagle

This baby is definitely worth the wait , cant wait to see it in PAF colours. I reckon that J10B will be the best plane in its league of 4.5 generation aircrafts.

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## Munir

The intake, the rudder show that the picture is not original. I have been playing with PS so often that changes applied with less cool programs are seen very easily. Sorry to disappoint you guys.


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## arslan_treen

Awsome pics .. tHnx for the upload hope the testing goes well and it gets inducted soon seem like the work of same team who decided to change the intakes of jf17 into divertless intakes . thanks again


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## wangrong

Munir said:


> The intake, the rudder show that the picture is not original. I have been playing with PS so often that changes applied with less cool programs are seen very easily. Sorry to disappoint you guys.





the picture come from Chinese forum 

PS?

Please post Original picture


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## Kharian_Beast

According to my colleagues the picture does not appear to be PS'D aka photo phucked. 

Just a heads up, feel free to discuss further.


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## qsaark

Actually it appeares that it is PSed. If the pictures is blown up, you can see that there is no consistency in the pixels. 

Compare this blown-up photo with another photo blown-up to the same magnification. You wont notice inconsistency.


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## Myth_buster_1

qsaark said:


> Actually it appeares that it is PSed. If the pictures is blown up, you can see that there is no consistency in the pixels.



as a matter of fact the whole pic has no "consistency" in the pixels. just check out the upper right and left corner.


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## wangrong

PC said:


> woow niceee... at first sight it looks like another PS job but if you analyze it carefully then you can see some realistic details.
> - IRST
> - DSI "air intake"
> - extended nose cone.
> - *longer nose antenna suggesting that the radar is still in testing phase *
> - and forgot the term but notice the big dot just above the exhaust nozzle on the rudder.
> 
> hope its real..



JF17#04

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## Munir

Sorry to spoil the joy but I never learned to shut my b mouth...  I have watched some of the pics a few hundred hours. Sometimes days. And doing that for a few decades you can get the feeling. I made one big mistake. When someone released second gen JF17 pictures I thought that it was BS. It wasn't... But this one is easy. Put together. Some alterations. Then softoned some parts... There is always a problem area and the gentlemen above did a splendid job to clear it up.

Friend Wangrong. If I had every pic to provide you the answer then you should have fired me. I do not use old pics to prove it. The western way is not to have large computations to achieve something but less computations to achieve more. But do understand that it doesn't mean that I dislike the poster or the plane... I am after objective info and sometimes it means I can hurt sides that are not ready to alter as fast as needed...


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## Myth_buster_1

qsaark said:


> Compare this blown-up photo with another photo blown-up to the same magnification. You wont notice inconsistency.



now thats a really bad comparison. one with the armaments has a very high resolution so it can afford to have a huge blown-up while the original FC-20 pic has really bad resolution so when blown-up the picture loses pixels.. what i think the pic must have been taken by a cellphone camera.


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## Munir

wangrong said:


> JF17#04



Let me give a hint.

The first DSI version...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/4512-jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-2-a-4.html

How come it had a normal pitot tube there? Cause yours is fake. And if we have to be a joker then the fun is over. It is waste of time. If you see the ring at almost the end of the pitot tube... That is where it originally started... No more of these please.


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## Jihad

Fake or not, wangrong keep em' coming, we know that the J10 will most likely look like these pictures, so what, i'm feeling good, i'm sure you guys do too, besides, the real deal will look much better anyways if these are fake.

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## PAFAce

qsaark said:


> Actually it appeares that it is PSed. If the pictures is blown up, you can see that there is no consistency in the pixels.



Photoshop could have been used to turn a low-res and blurred picture into a more clear and crisp one. This does not have to mean that the picture is not original, but simply that someone at some point will have taken it to an image editing software and altered a few things. I would like to further discuss these images before writing them off, simply to satisfy my enthusiasm for the project and to spark my imagination.

Even so, I will wait before I believe these pictures to be real.

Also, out of curiosity, is there a way to tell whether or not a jet has thrust vectoring capability just by looking at its exhaust?


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## was




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## was



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## was

improved PLA J-10 Fighter in test for Intake&#8217;s Enhancing Beams removed

Beijing, Sept.18 (China Defense Mashup Report) &#8212; Recently Some unleashed photos display that An Improved Variant of PLA Air Force J-10 Fighter is in flight test because of its intake&#8217;s enhancing beams removed. The J-10 (Jianji-10, or Jian-10) is a single-engine, all-weather multi-role fighter aircraft designed by Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (also known as 611 Institute) and built by the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC). Its original intake design created a gap between the air intake and the forward fuselage and requires six small beams to enhance the structure for high-speed flight. Many Analysers believes that these small supporting beams seriously increase the RCS of J-10.


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## was



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## was




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## was



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## was



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## was

see the avionics


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## was

J-10 ejector seat


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## was




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## was




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## was

lol lol lol


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## pshamim

araz said:


> PShamim Saheb .
> It is really a pleasure to see you on this forum. Welcome. We can now say that we get postings from two of PAFs greats--yourselves and Sir MuradK your course mate. Araz



Thanks Araz Saheb. Are you sure he is my course/badgemate? Give me more info about him. Alzheimer is probably setting in and I have trouble remembering sometimes. I will be glad to talk to him.
Best regards. I am enjoying this forum and will inshallah contribute in future.
Regards/


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## pshamim

Engine may become an issue but PAF and China are deligently working on it. It may a different engine than the AL-31FN. Will be interesting to see what they comeup with, but it will be a non-russian soursed.


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## kungpaochicken

for those that questioned the authenticity of this pic, here's an other close up.
Now PS gurus pls make your comments

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## kungpaochicken

pshamim said:


> Engine may become an issue but PAF and China are deligently working on it. It may a different engine than the AL-31FN. Will be interesting to see what they comeup with, but it will be a non-russian soursed.



From the latest released picture of J10B/FC20, it will be WS10A with a DSI inlet


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## kungpaochicken

check out the IRST on the nose of this baby

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## pshamim

kungpaochicken said:


> From the latest released picture of J10B/FC20, it will be WS10A with a DSI inlet



That is the correct assumption according to popular belief. But some news from a credible indicates that it may turn out to be a completely different engine. I do not know what they are testing in China but it is not WS-10A. Time will tell what is in works.


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## wangrong

compare to F16

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## wangrong



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## M_Saint

pshamim said:


> That is the correct assumption according to popular belief. But some news from a credible indicates that it may turn out to be a completely different engine. I do not know what they are testing in China but it is not WS-10A. Time will tell what is in works.



Pshamim Sir, 

Could you please enlighten us on why J-10 wasn't acquired off the shelf when news were surfacing its MKK kill ratio was like 10 : 1 as oppose to egging on F-Solas 2011 arrivals? Couldn't $ 1.5 B be better spent on it than block-50s ambigious arrivals? Even why Mr. 10%'s latest visit didn't bring the good news of signing J-10 deal? Wasn't cutting Budget on missile production, postponning strategic research and claiming Mumbai attack was conceived at PAK's land synoymous to making PAK as India's Sub-Servient?


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## Munir

I am not a guru but the pics are altered.


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## AjnabiZ

Munir said:


> I am not a guru but the pics are altered.




If you accept yourself as NOT a guru, then how can you say that they are altered ?

Or do we need a guru to tell us that ?


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## Munir

AjnabiZ said:


> If you accept yourself as NOT a guru, then how can you say that they are altered ?
> 
> Or do we need a guru to tell us that ?



Let me put it simple... Telling others that you are guru sounds like a fake title...

Anyway... The pic with the red square shows behind the cockpit no UHF antenna... Yet the picture posted earlier wherre you see the cockpit someone forgot to erase that same antenna... And there are some other features which I do not want to tell cause next time they will have more spare time and I will have to put more effort in analysing something that is not worth to analyse...

Good day.


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## Awesome

Munir said:


> Let me put it simple... Telling others that you are guru sounds like a fake title...
> 
> Anyway... The pic with the red square shows behind the cockpit no UHF antenna... Yet the picture posted earlier wherre you see the cockpit someone forgot to erase that same antenna... And there are some other features which I do not want to tell cause next time they will have more spare time and I will have to put more effort in analysing something that is not worth to analyse...
> 
> Good day.


The Antenna argument is good. The antenna is there in every FC-20 pic posted, except for the last one wangrong posted. Where'd it go?


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## adnan1479

we were in a state of complete denial when zardari became president.
its the same case now.
come on - -accept it - - the j-10 was going to get DSI and irst sooner or later. it was only a matter of time. now that they've finally made a prototype nobody's willing to accept it.
i don't know about anyone else but i sure believe at least ONE of the features - - -the DSI - - its all real. as for irst, i wouldnt be surprised if the sudanese put irst on their mig-21s - - why on earth should i be surprised if the chinese put it on the j-10.
and besides irst is no big deal - -its been around for more than 25 years for goodness sake - - on fulcrums and flankers


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## Myth_buster_1

Munir said:


> The pic with the red square shows behind the cockpit no UHF antenna...



all you need is a good eye sight and good concentration because it is there.
View attachment 15f9eed9f4f78f7b93b8e54a066e8393.jpg


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## Awesome

PC said:


> all you need is a good eye sight and good concentration because it is there.
> View attachment 15f9eed9f4f78f7b93b8e54a066e8393.jpg


Munir, your argument? 

Haha, hey if its true and real nothing like it. 

Perhaps Wangrong, you can tell us more about the source you got the pics from and how reliable it is?

Btw, what is that shade type difference on the tail for?

It is all very exciting, this makes the FC-20 delivery quite timely.


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## wangrong




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## araz

Kharian_Beast said:


> Wow...depending on the authenticity of that picture, many of us were right all along regarding certain upgrades...
> 
> FC-20 is going to not only neutralize the SU30MKI threat but be a major player and probably leader in the legit 4.5 generation fighter league.
> 
> AESA radar may be fitted on J-10B on top of the visible differences



My friend.
I would hold back on the enthusiasm. We have all been excited and disappointed whaen these snaps turned out to be CGs . Secondly what is more importat is what is not revealed,ie engine, avionics compatibility with western missiles, Sino missile development. There are so many imponderables. All that I say is wait till some more news comes out.
For instance although i hate the Chin inlet cosmetically, why would you change it to a DSI inlet? especially when the plane performs well on the inlet. If I remember correctly, no plane with DSI can go Mach 2+(although you can correct me if i am wrong). So you may be decreasing the planes speed with out any significant gains. 
I am sure by the time it comes into PAFs hand it would be a fantastic plane, but PAF has been talking about a non chinese avionics suite and radar. Whether the chinese progress in Radar and avionics satisfies PAF or not is to be seen. Then if they go for western radar what will they go for? What implications will it have on weapons integration of FC20? We really have to wait and see. Though i have to say , I cant wait to see it in PAF colours either !!!!!
WaSalam
Araz


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## araz

AjnabiZ said:


> If you accept yourself as NOT a guru, then how can you say that they are altered ?
> 
> Or do we need a guru to tell us that ?



AjnabiZ
If I were you i would listen to Munir. He is a senior member with a very keen eye. You never know you might learn something!!! I certainly do!!
WaSalam
Araz

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## araz

pshamim said:


> Thanks Araz Saheb. Are you sure he is my course/badgemate? Give me more info about him. Alzheimer is probably setting in and I have trouble remembering sometimes. I will be glad to talk to him.
> Best regards. I am enjoying this forum and will inshallah contribute in future.
> Regards/



Pshamim Saheb.
I have Pmed you in this regards.
With regards to FC20, one of the questions raised which has irked a lot of us is why would they change the Chin inlet to a DSI inlet when the plane is performing satifactorily on the former. i would love to hear your and senior members views on this matter.
waSalam
Araz


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## Kharian_Beast

araz said:


> My friend.
> I would hold back on the enthusiasm. We have all been excited and disappointed whaen these snaps turned out to be CGs . Secondly what is more importat is what is not revealed,ie engine, avionics compatibility with western missiles, Sino missile development. There are so many imponderables. All that I say is wait till some more news comes out.
> For instance although i hate the Chin inlet cosmetically, why would you change it to a DSI inlet? especially when the plane performs well on the inlet. If I remember correctly, no plane with DSI can go Mach 2+(although you can correct me if i am wrong). So you may be decreasing the planes speed with out any significant gains.
> I am sure by the time it comes into PAFs hand it would be a fantastic plane, but PAF has been talking about a non chinese avionics suite and radar. Whether the chinese progress in Radar and avionics satisfies PAF or not is to be seen. Then if they go for western radar what will they go for? What implications will it have on weapons integration of FC20? We really have to wait and see. Though i have to say , I cant wait to see it in PAF colours either !!!!!
> WaSalam
> Araz



Wise Araz, 

You are correct in a sense and I do see where you are coming from, in fact it was the first line of thinking I adopted when I saw this thread. However we must not forget that there are well placed reports of J-10B testing and evaluation trials along with a report that declared the prototype of J-10B to have been completed a few months back, and even if these pictures are faker than silicone, they still give us a rough idea possibly the best visual representation of what to expect, and since FC-20 is far from fantasy, the pictures do not represent something off topic or blatant attempts at causing false alarms and unneccessary excitement as I see it. 

Regarding the radar and avionics, I think PAF wouldn't have too much of a problem going with an entirely Chinese approach if Western equipment would be made unavailable for us, as in the case of initial batches JF-17. Same could apply for missiles, although PAF has a wide variety in this case to choose from. 

Yes DSI intake would be less useful at speeds past mach 2 though there would be effective methods of attack to make up for this shortcoming taught to the pilots (with every aircraft there are some maneuvres you avoid and others that you utilize when you are engaging targets). Despite this, it would not compromise top speed capabilities of the aircraft in any way, and in fact it would aid in maneuvrability at higher speeds. Also it would reduce flutter problems when attacking from high angles along with reducing RCS. 

For general overview, let me quote from a friend : 



> DSI stands for Divertless Supersonic Intakes. The bumps seen at the intakes are litterally called Bumps. At high aircraft speeds through supersonic, the bumps work with forward-swept inlet cowls to redirect unwanted boundary layer airflow away from the inlets, essentially doing the job of heavier, more complex, and more costly approaches used by current fighters. It proved to save significant weight, reduce RCS by concealing the engine's fans which generate most of the RCS when searching from the front. It improves performances both when supersonic and subsonic. The DSI bump functions as a compression surface and creates a pressure distribution that prevents the majority of the boundary layer air from entering the inlet at speeds up to Mach 2. In essence, the DSI does away with complex and heavy mechanical systems.





technicians inspecting DSI intake on J-10B :

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## spurdozer

Araz saheb, J-10 might look like this


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## Neo

araz said:


> Pshamim Saheb.
> I have Pmed you in this regards.
> With regards to FC20, one of the questions raised which has irked a lot of us is why would they change the Chin inlet to a DSI inlet when the plane is performing satifactorily on the former. i would love to hear your and senior members views on this matter.
> waSalam
> Araz



Sir,

DSI intakes reduce weight, costs and complexity while improving performance. The intake reduces one of the three major forward scatters of an aircraft that typically represents between 30%-35% of the RCS of an aircraft. The technology has successfully been tested on JF-17 and would boost FC-20's performance.

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## Quwa

Pictures have also been posted on this site:

Chinese Military Aviation


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## Munir

The background is green... Yet the almost dark and huge fin suddenly becomes a shade that only can be seen by concentration and focus? I think it is obvious that you want it to see and I just want ot be sure whether it is correct.


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## pshamim

Neo said:


> Sir,
> 
> DSI intakes reduce weight, costs and complexity while improving performance. The intake reduces one of the three major forward scatters of an aircraft that typically represents between 30%-35% of the RCS of an aircraft. The technology has successfully been tested on JF-17 and would boost FC-20's performance.



Good answer. Let me also add a little bit more information on DSI. This technology was first tested on F-16 and it really created unbelievable results which were later introduced on F-35.

When flying at high to supersonic speeds, aircrafts use heavy and expensive equipment/approaches to divert the unwanted boundry layer airflow. This is easily achieved by using the DSI. This approach is neith costly nor increases the weight. DSI works with the forward swept inclet cowls and redirects the unwanted airflow away.

Lockheed Martin tested this approach with F-16 . They tested the clearnce and functional checks as well as the performance checks at very high speeds, low speeds, using after burners, turning off engine and restart during flight, Engine restarted every time after switch off and restart and never stalled. DSI also made a huge difference in speed and Mach2 was achieved.
Performance anf functional enhancements also contributed to lessening the TBO.

Hope this helps understand why Pakistan needs the best performing aircrafts at fraction of the cost. It is a smart approach.

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## mean_bird

pshamim said:


> This technology was first tested on F-16 and it really created unbelievable results which were later introduced on F-35.
> 
> ...
> DSI also made a huge difference in speed and Mach2 was achieved.



a quick question shamim sahib, 

- Why later block or later manufactured F-16s do not use DSI? 

I suppose because F-16 program is coming to a close and its costly to change the assembly line when you are thinking of stopping the assembly line anyway. Is this thinking true?


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## pshamim

mean_bird said:


> a quick question shamim sahib,
> 
> - Why later block or later manufactured F-16s do not use DSI?
> 
> I suppose because F-16 program is coming to a close and its costly to change the assembly line when you are thinking of stopping the assembly line anyway. Is this thinking true?



Correct. It does mean impacting aircraft's forebody and center fuselage as well redesigning of weapons bay etc. And that can be really costly. In case of F-16 the DSI was tested by making changes on a single F-16 Block-30 aircraft and then klessons learned were incorporated in the design of the JSF from the very beginning.


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## Quwa

Seeing the new F-15SE...is it theoretically possible to have a future J-10/FC-20 with internal payload?


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## mean_bird

that would require a significant leap in technological advancement by china and also a RAM coating for without that, there is hardly any significantly more stealth.


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## Kharian_Beast

Mark Sien said:


> Seeing the new F-15SE...is it theoretically possible to have a future J-10/FC-20 with internal payload?



Theoretically yes, and I will agree with mean bird that China would have to step up in the R&D department though I have read reports of China making significant breakthroughs in stealth technology including radar absorbent material which they had been working on since presumably the late 90s. Not sure about the CFT with internal weapons capability as this is brand spanking new technology though in theory nothing is impossible.


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## AjnabiZ




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## Kharian_Beast

^^ Wow talk about full blown *turd **burglary *. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/328798-post44.html


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## AjnabiZ




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## AjnabiZ

Kharian_Beast said:


> ^^ Wow talk about full blown *turd **burglary *.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/328798-post44.html



Sorry i did not notice that you had already posted it, i got the image from another forum


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## AjnabiZ

pshamim said:


> Lockheed Martin tested this approach with F-16 .



Is it this one


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## AjnabiZ

Is this J-10B cockpit ?


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## AjnabiZ

araz said:


> AjnabiZ
> If I were you i would listen to Munir. He is a senior member with a very keen eye. You never know you might learn something!!! I certainly do!!
> WaSalam
> Araz



Point taken 

Thanks


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## wangrong




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## Munir

Latest from Pakdef

H Khan H Khan is offline
Senior Member

Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,374
Re: Pakistan Air Force Pictures & Videos - IV
Quote: 

Originally Posted by pshamim 



HKhan Saheb,Per our conversation yesterday, what is the probability of WS-10A be the engine of FC-20 or there may be other option? 


Shamim sahib,

We had a pretty good conversation about FC-20 and it is always a pleasure talking to you.

I would like to share some information about FC-20 which I have disclosed to couple of the forum members:

The reason for the delay in FC-20 fighters delivery to PAF is, yes, you have guessed it right, it is the engine.

China's CAC manufacturer of J-10/FC-20 has been very up front with PAF about the engine issue. Presently, all of J-10's flying with PLAAF have the Russian MMPP Salyut AL-31FN engines which produces reheat trust of between 27,000- 32,000 pounds. Recently, China purchased 100 AL-31FN but these engines are for J-11B not J-10's. CAC has already informed PAF that Russian have so far not made any types of objections to the sale of J-10 to any country but the word 'Pakistan wakes up the drunk bear...' is a irritant for both parties.

China has demonstrated two different engines to PAF for its FC-20. One is WS-10 and the other one, which is still at its development stage, has not being disclosed yet. The only item known about the unknown engine is that it's pretty powerful and uses state of art the technologies.

The other item which has caused the delay is the radar for FC-20. PAF has decided not to gingel with radar for FC-20 as it did with JF-17. The front runners for the M-AESA is a joint radar developed by Sweden and Italy, a Chinese and some unknown radar from France.

The last aspect for delayed deliver, which is by default, that by 2014, JF-17 and F-16 projects would be completed or near completion and PAF will have clearer picture is to how many FC-20 to procure.

By 2014 some of the F-16 would more than 30 years old and PAF will looking to replace them if some of the older A/B don't go through MLU.

There is a newer version of Raad being developed to be launched from the wing-pylons of JF-17.

The image of IL-76 at Chaklala AB is indeed an IL-76. It is leased from Ukraine for flight training until the delivery of Midas. PAF might keep this leased IL-76.

Any ways, PAF is in good shape currently and has mapped a prudent strategy to keep air-dominance as its doctrine.
__________________
H Khan

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## Munir

You are suprising me... But how come the rudder is pointier and not rounded as first pic? And do I miss suddenly the red 01 on one side of the intake? The UHF/VHF antenna is smaller and all black. Not as in the picture posted earlier. The midwing pylon (where the mainwing delta is "cropped" is gone.

How come the car and tow handle have shadow (sun right above) while the front part of the plane not?


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## wangrong

Munir said:


> You are suprising me... But how come the rudder is pointier and not rounded as first pic? And do I miss suddenly the red 01 on one side of the intake? The UHF/VHF antenna is smaller and all black. Not as in the picture posted earlier. The midwing pylon (where the mainwing delta is "cropped" is gone.



different airplane

#01..#02.....


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## Awesome

That 01 area looks like it has been repainted... shiny shiny.


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## Awesome

I never understood what is that black shaded thing on top of the tail. How come that's different in this picture too.


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## wangrong




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## wangrong




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## Munir

Here the other 01...


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## Munir

wangrong said:


> different airplane
> 
> #01..#02.....



That indeed could be it... I just play devils advocate but you do know we want to be sure. If true the chinese not only suprised the world with another marvel design but also aviation experts cause it does look splendid. Not fully reliable cause I need untouched pictures for optical and technical analyses of the plane... You can continue posting them. I am all eyes sofar.


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## wangrong

Munir said:


> That indeed could be it... I just play devils advocate but you do know we want to be sure. If true the chinese not only suprised the world with another marvel design but also aviation experts cause it does look splendid. Not fully reliable cause I need untouched pictures for optical and technical analyses of the plane... You can continue posting them. I am all eyes sofar.



The camera isnt good enough


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## Munir

wangrong said:


> AESA



Second pic most realistic sofat only the pitot tube seems to be strange. There is no need to point it downwards. First pic is altered. Certainly the inlet is a little more lengthened.


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## cherryerror

You are right, Mr. Munir. One of these photos is a fake one. but the others could basically be considered original. Yes, these candid photographs are big bomb on every chinese Military fans' forums. consequently a fierce debate on the authenticity of those photos, whether they were photoshoped or not, was going on these days. It was when the photo in which some people stood underneath the plane made its appearance, most of military fans began to think that these photos(exclude the fake one) are very likely original photos, not photoshoped.

It is always fun to make some speculation, according to those candid photos, about what new functions or parts have been added or upgraded to the new plane, J10B. After the analyses of the plane in those photos, many of our chinese military enthusiasts have drawn a conclusion that the technologies such as AESA, DSI, IRST, sensor fusion, ECM, advanced avionics architecture have been very likely achieved on the J10B's prototype #01. As to the engine, whether its russian's engine was replaced by chinese one is still unknown.

By the way, many chinese military fans believe that the J10B is customized for PAF, and not much J10B will be introduced into PLAF. what PLAF want to equip is said to be the J10C. who knows.

Finally I hope all of you friends can read well the information above I want to convey. Sorry, you know, it is a bit hard for me, an average chinese with poor English, to connect those English words together

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## pshamim

M_Saint said:


> Pshamim Sir,
> 
> Could you please enlighten us on why J-10 wasn't acquired off the shelf when news were surfacing its MKK kill ratio was like 10 : 1 as oppose to egging on F-Solas 2011 arrivals? Couldn't $ 1.5 B be better spent on it than block-50s ambigious arrivals? Even why Mr. 10&#37;'s latest visit didn't bring the good news of signing J-10 deal? Wasn't cutting Budget on missile production, postponning strategic research and claiming Mumbai attack was conceived at PAK's land synoymous to making PAK as India's Sub-Servient?



Pakistan will buy whatever version comes close to providing capabilities that PAF wants and needs. May that is the reason that the version it needs was not available. Aircrafts are not something that you can pick up off the shelf. Also the first production goes to PLAAF.

What Pakistan really needs is a "First look, first shoot, first kill" capability. They may not get 100% of what they wish but anything close will be grabbed.


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## Munir

pshamim said:


> Pakistan will buy which comes close to providing cqapabilities that PAF wants and needs. May that is the reason that the version it needs was not available. Aircrafts are not something that you can pick up off the shelf. Also the first production goes to PLAAF.
> 
> What Pakistan really needs is a "First look, first shoot, first kill" capability. They may not get 100% of what they wish but anything close will be grabbed.




I think PsHamim hits the nail. The point is that PAF never takes second option. But the sellers are not that nice these days. So PAF moved from high quality import to internal production (made Mirage 3 parts etc) towards JF17. We hear a lot of people still writing that it is just 70% f16 or that it is not good enough against MKI. Well, how many nations joined these kind of projects? How many nation produced such a plane? How many nations fly such a plane? Can you imagine what it means from blocked F16A towards F7P/PG to now JF17? That is not a minor improvement but a huge big bang in military aviation. You will have indigenous 350 fighterjets with BVR and Ra'ad as weapons... And still remind that it is the lower of the high low combination. I am not wondered that FC20 is still being negotiated cause that will be surely even higher end result then we expect...

I keep reminding Indians that it was called a paper plane by them...

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## Munir

It was an honour looking at the pics. I agree with you remarks about PAF and PLA. As far as I know PAF will buy both versions if problems occur with USA. But the main problems remains engine. It is not decent to forward you to Pakdef but I think people here do not make much problem out of it. There you will see which problems are expected on the PAF J10 path. There are two Chinese engine options. If needed Russian option might be possible but possible dangerous. Depending on Indian MRCA selection. The radar is more an international selection but China's version is included (AESA).

Hope to see more of you guys. And your Englich is fine.


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## Munir

Food for thought...


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## cherryerror

here are another two latest candid photographs about J10B prototype.


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## HAIDER

How about this concept..
View attachment 61ab9f078d2efe0aa49da7d089de92e8.jpg

(China is developing an advanced version of the Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Corporation (CAC) J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, referred to as the Super-10, with a more powerful engine, thrust-vector control, stronger airframe and passive phased-array radar.)

View attachment a61ba7ba5988cb023411f817d992368d.jpg

(PAF refers to more advance version of J-10 as FC-20. Not much details are out their yet but we can assume the newer version to be something like the 2 pictures. PAF plan is to acquire 36-100 FC-20.)
Chinese forum comments
*08:39 GMT, January 19, 2009 First pictures are now becoming available of the dedicated two-seat attack version of the Chinese J-10 fighter aircraft, this being distinct from the standard combat-capable trainer/OCU aircraft that is already in service. The new version, which is variously referred to as J-10B or J-10C, features improvement such as Divertless Supersonic Intake (DSI) engine air intake, conformal fuel tanks, new EW equipment on the vertical tail, IRST/FLIR and laser designation pods, and is reported to be equipped with a new radar fitted with a PESA (Passive Electronic Scanning Array) antenna.

The new version of the J-10 is thus a (relatively) lightweight attack aircraft while maintaining good air combat capabilities, rather similar to the Israeli F-16I SOUFA in concept if not in performance. It will be interesting to see whether the PLA Air Force will now move to procure the J-10B/C in lieu of the earlier J-10A, or the two types will rather be procured in parallel.
*

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## HAIDER

March 18, 2009: China only publicly admitted its new J-10s jet fighter existed two years ago, even though the first few entered service in late 2003. There are only about a hundred J-10As are in service, and they are being offered to export customers for about $42 million each. Currently, China is producing 2-3 J-10s a month.

*Pictures recently appeared showing the improved J-10B model. This version carries improved electronics, including better radar warning, a laser range finder and targeting electronics. The new nose cone looks like the one on the F-16, indicating that the J-10B is now ready to be fitted with an AESA (phased array) radar (which is more capable and more reliable than older types, but also more expensive.) The cockpit also has a larger and more detailed HUD (Head Up Display).
*
The J-10 already has a reputation as a maintenance nightmare, and that the Chinese are having a hard time keeping the aircraft operational in reasonable numbers. But the J-10 is the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. The aircraft is an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful.

Work on the J-10 began over twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that could compete with the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16. But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were problems, and it wasn't until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller problems. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia.

The J-10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J-10 has only one engine. Originally, the J-10 used a Russian AL-31FN engine, but China has been working for a decade to manufacture their own version of this, the WS10A. The WS10A is something of an acid test for them, as it is a powerful military engine, and a complex piece of work. Russia refused to license China to produce the AL-31FN, so the Chinese stole as much of the technology as they could and designed the WS10A. This engine has been tested, and officially approved for production, but apparently still has quality control and performance problems.

It's no accident that the J-10 resembles the F-16, because Israel apparently sold them technology for the Israeli Lavi jet fighter. Israel abandoned the Lavi project, because of the high cost and availability of cheaper alternatives (buying F-16s and F-15s from the United States.) But the Lavi was meant to be a super F-16, and incorporated a lot of design ideas from the F-16 (which the Israelis were very familiar with, as they used them, and had developed new components for them.)
Warplanes: China Builds A Better Fighter

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## Myth_buster_1

Looks like the radar is AESA, the angle of antenna is fixed as the phase array faces upwards. 



View attachment ec96fede788e8cfdc55d2bc9ccb1002f.jpg


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## Munir

Munir said:


> Food for thought...



I meant how more do you want to see the original picture? The planes are parked at the same spot and th epicture is identical. Just look at the taxiway in front of the intake... The trees... etc etc...


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## Rafael

The fist plane has another one behind it I guess.


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## Munir

raheel1 said:


> The fist plane has another one behind it I guess.



It is the same plane. It is the same pic just the second one is PS. I think I need 10 minutes to move from the frist pic top the second... If these alterations are that difficult then I wonder what people look at 

Waiting for more pics cause sofar onle one was impressive.


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## Myth_buster_1

Munir said:


> It is the same plane. It is the same pic just the second one is PS. I think I need 10 minutes to move from the frist pic top the second... If these alterations are that difficult then I wonder what people look at
> 
> Waiting for more pics cause sofar onle one was impressive.



what you have pointed out is a very obvious cheap PS job... however the very first pic of this thread and this one 
are real thing.


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## Munir

PC said:


> what you have pointed out is a very obvious cheap PS job... however the very first pic of this thread and this one
> are real thing.



I think this and two other pics others are probably the real pics. The strange idea for not straight pitot tube is understandable : if they want to meassure high AOA data... But I would not do it this way. Maybe it is the cheapest way. 

That the plane flies is not a suprise... But they want to know how it behaves on different AOA with this DSI. Expect that the design will be altered later. Personally I do not think that this is the best version yet so I am looking forward to the practical improvements.

About the radar... I bet this plane has no radar in it now.


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## Kharian_Beast

So did we finally conclude that there is a possibility some of these pics of J-10B aren't all bullsh** ? 

Just as a friendly request, if more pictures of J-10B or C are leaked please post them to this thread as well as the J-10 official thread.


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## araz

would it not be better to just merge the thread for ease of reference. what do you guy think?
Araz

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## Myth_buster_1

here is a better quality picture.

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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

PC said:


> here is a better quality picture.



The DIS definitely looks more realistic IMO - but that IRST still looks like an ice cream cone that got slapped on, and the tapered end of the IRST looks like its creeping up the windshield a bit ...


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Threads merged on request.*


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## Myth_buster_1

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> but that IRST still looks like an ice cream cone that got slapped on, and the tapered end of the IRST looks like its creeping up the windshield a bit ...



 sir g.... the IRST on FC-20 is on the right side like on the new flanker family such as MKI and as far as i know, the cone is only there to give some aerodynamics to the actual IRST sensor which appears to be the gray part on new FC-20 pic.


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## MastanKhan

double post---how did I do that

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## Fennecus




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## mean_bird

_mods can you please shift the above off-topic posts to another proper thread so we can continue discussion there?_

A break for the on-going discussion... 

*hours ago, News reported,

A J-10 frighter encountered with power-off and the engine stoppage in 1400m height air, The ground control center asked him to eject,but he decided to forced landing . The pilot drive the plane that without power to glide,and land safely. the plane has been damaged, But the pilot are safe.

the report said, this is the first time that J10 meet with malfunction in the sky since the j10 equiped in PLAAF.*


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## araz

mean_bird said:


> _mods can you please shift the above off-topic posts to another proper thread so we can continue discussion there?_
> 
> A break for the on-going discussion...
> 
> *hours ago, News reported,
> 
> A J-10 frighter encountered with power-off and the engine stoppage in 1400m height air, The ground control center asked him to eject,but he decided to forced landing . The pilot drive the plane that without power to glide,and land safely. the plane has been damaged, But the pilot are safe.
> 
> the report said, this is the first time that J10 meet with malfunction in the sky since the j10 equiped in PLAAF.*



Although it could happen to anyone and any plane, it is a stark reminder that Russian Engines are not as reliable as western ones. PAF has had reservations about this annd this news has justified its stand.
Araz


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Mirage 2000 Posts moved here: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...istan-negotiating-france-mirage-fighters.html*


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## Myth_buster_1

ok back to the topic..

here is my wish list of Russian equipments for FC-20

- Powerplant = AL-31 2D TVC
- Radar = Zhuk AE


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## Zarbe Momin

Pakistan will be ready to buy if price is reasonable whether russia will be agree to sell this to us.


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## IceCold

Fennecus said:


>



The color scheme is really awesome.

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## IceCold

araz said:


> Although it could happen to anyone and any plane, it is a stark reminder that Russian Engines are not as reliable as western ones. PAF has had reservations about this annd this news has justified its stand.
> Araz



The good news is that the plane can be glided over to land safely, not many jets can do that after an engine failure and specially single engine jet.

Araz sb is it safe to assume that just because the Chinese version of the engine which too itself is based on the russian technology, its reliability is questionable and if yes can PAF equip the J-10 with a western power plant? IMO i don't think any western nation would allow its engine to be fitted on a chinese platform because of the fear of a technology breach.


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## mean_bird

IceCold said:


> The good news is that the plane can be glided over to land safely, not many jets can do that after an engine failure and specially single engine jet.
> 
> Araz sb is it safe to assume that just because the Chinese version of the engine which too itself is based on the russian technology, its reliability is questionable and if yes can PAF equip the J-10 with a western power plant? IMO i don't think any western nation would allow its engine to be fitted on a chinese platform because of the fear of a technology breach.



Lets see if an official report comes out.. This is the first such accident.


nice work by the pilot and impressive design of the plane, kinda reminds me of the Israeli F-15 that flew on one wing.


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## araz

IceCold said:


> The good news is that the plane can be glided over to land safely, not many jets can do that after an engine failure and specially single engine jet.
> 
> Araz sb is it safe to assume that just because the Chinese version of the engine which too itself is based on the russian technology, its reliability is questionable and if yes can PAF equip the J-10 with a western power plant? IMO i don't think any western nation would allow its engine to be fitted on a chinese platform because of the fear of a technology breach.



Ice cold.
I gather there are 2 engines being tried out in China. WS10 which we have heard about and WS15(ihope i am correct with the nomenclature). PAF likes the second one and sees the potetntial in it.Apparently quite a few changes have been made in it and qulalitatively it is a better engine. 
There are a few things to note. This is the first accident for J10 and we need to wait for a report to see whether the engine was really to be blamed for it. Secondly we dont really know what the record of the chinese engine is on the J10. As far as i know the only planes using WS10 atthe moment are J11s(combination of WS10 and AL31FN).However so far the record for chinese products has not been a bad one. 
Secondly PAF will have very little choice but to go Chinese as there are problems associated with European(Price ) and Us (sanctions/lack of trust)alternates. 
You are right as to the lack of alternatives with regards to engine for FC20. the only alternative seems to be the F16 Bl 52 engine with a thrust of 28000lbs, which may be the right size, but carries with it huge problems even if we could acquire it. Or we could go down the Mirage 2K5/9 route till problems get sorted out. I hope this answers your querry.
WaSalam
Araz

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## Munir

araz said:


> Ice cold.
> I gather there are 2 engines being tried out in China. WS10 which we have heard about and WS15(ihope i am correct with the nomenclature). PAF likes the second one and sees the potetntial in it.Apparently quite a few changes have been made in it and qulalitatively it is a better engine.
> There are a few things to note. This is the first accident for J10 and we need to wait for a report to see whether the engine was really to be blamed for it. Secondly we dont really know what the record of the chinese engine is on the J10. As far as i know the only planes using WS10 atthe moment are J11s(combination of WS10 and AL31FN).However so far the record for chinese products has not been a bad one.
> Secondly PAF will have very little choice but to go Chinese as there are problems associated with European(Price ) and Us (sanctions/lack of trust)alternates.
> You are right as to the lack of alternatives with regards to engine for FC20. the only alternative seems to be the F16 Bl 52 engine with a thrust of 28000lbs, which may be the right size, but carries with it huge problems even if we could acquire it. Or we could go down the Mirage 2K5/9 route till problems get sorted out. I hope this answers your querry.
> WaSalam
> Araz



Excellent reply Araz. Adding to that.... You have always a relationship between price - maintenance costs - power... Russian engines hare very rugged and simple to maintain. Yet you need to replace them more often. If you have western engines you need to invest a lot in safety, maintenance and you will get a better performance. But the cost will be a lot higher. Just see it like this. When the first time F16 landed in Poland the Americans had every runway and taxi way vacuum cleaned. Even when landed the planes had always stay behind a truck that vacumed the road... Compare that with Mig29... That plane can fly from a dirty strip or even soft roads. Another example is A10 and SU25. The A10 will have every problem you can imagine if you have dirty fuel. Thje SU25 will fly on diesel or even Vodka... You will have less power but the engine is that good it can handle almost any fuel...

If you are US then you need high tech airfields and well trained maintenance engineers. In Russia you need just a strip. Even farmers can learn the maintenance if needed...

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

All russian war birds are designed to land or the worst type of air strip. They also design their millitary equipment to be field overhauled. That is why the landing gears of russian planes are extremely heavy duty.


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## mhussain

The problem with a WS-15 would be:

1. That it is a whole new generation and far more ambitious than the WS-10, surely would either have teething problems in service or would need time to work out all kinks
2. The need for it to be fitted into the J-10 would take time and $
3. Would China be willing to sell their possibly most important technology project
4. Can Pakistan wait for such an engine, a few months ago the PAF needed something faster
5. Would need to upgrade maintenance capabilities significantly as this is a class of engine that is far more sophisticated than anything Pakistan has seen (again, time and loads of $$$)


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## araz

Brother.
1.As of now we are talking about 5-6 yr before delivery. the engine already exists and has been shown to PAF, which likes it.
2.Size is similar with more thrust, so should not be a problem. again we have time, the new plane is not due to fly /be ready till 2011-12so there are 3 yrs to go still.
3. If it was shown to PAF it must have been shown with a view to sell it. It is logical to assume it.
4.FFC20s are not due in till 2014-15.
5.we would need to upgrade capabilities and infrastructure for it in any case so why should it matter what engine is being used?


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## Munir

mhussain said:


> The problem with a WS-15 would be:
> 
> 1. That it is a whole new generation and far more ambitious than the WS-10, surely would either have teething problems in service or would need time to work out all kinks
> 2. The need for it to be fitted into the J-10 would take time and $
> 3. Would China be willing to sell their possibly most important technology project
> 4. Can Pakistan wait for such an engine, a few months ago the PAF needed something faster
> 5. Would need to upgrade maintenance capabilities significantly as this is a class of engine that is far more sophisticated than anything Pakistan has seen (again, time and loads of $$$)



You might say the same when talking about F22 or JSF... This is the way aviation technology works. Something is invented. It takes 3-5 years to introduce. You need another decade to get it fully tested cause you never know how it will react under al cicumstances. We have funny stories about F22 computers not able to handle time-zone. We heard about B2 not able to handle normal hangars so sepcial hangars and often repainting needed. We heard so many things so we know there is a reserve. But I do think that we are talking about less dangerous developments when it comes to Chinese way of inventing. They do it a little by little so this engine or the technoligies are much more reliable then totally new. About your points. If PAkistani can handle things like Ra'ad and Babur then they can handle a lot more things then we know. It is not a small country nor is it that much handicapped. We have enough potential inside and outside the nation. We might not have it like China but compared let us say India we do a lot better.


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## pshamim

I am blessed with some great friends in China who share my passion with Air Force. They keep sending me interesting and intriguiging photographs and keep me abreast with latest news.

My friend Dongqui has sent me the following photos which I like to share. Shows the ingenuity and resoursefulness of our Chinese brothers. Please see some pictures of a 2 seater F-10 and its air frame assembly on the spot.
Regards,
Pshamim

1.Just arrived in the morning, two cranes have been in place and everybody at busy. 
2. Small size of the cable car to the left hung up.
3. Left on the left.
4. Large size crane hoist and then the right-wing to the right. 
5. Vertical lift down later, the two put airframe lifting cranes, trailers up to next to go.

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## pshamim

6. Everyone busy in the left landing gear installed under the fuselage
7. Busy morning.
8. Also install the main landing gear, it is not easy loading.
9. Installed the main landing gear well, and is still vacant Medium. Load-bearing can be seen landing at the former, two main round was a certain angle inward
10. Efforts to make you the instrument panel.

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## pshamim

11. Before the landing gear also ready.
12. S-type bubble-type canopy bubble Ah really.
13Landing gear is installed well, and put on the ground

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## MZUBAIR

*Pakistan is not getting 36 J-10/FC-20 this year.*

The order is altered.

*Now Pakistan is getting almost 50 J-10/FC-20 "high-tech" variant, to be delivered to the PAF in 2014-15, some speculate that this could be a version of the upgraded J-10B model.*

On March 7th 2009, at agreement signing ceremony of JF-17 Thunder aircraft, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed said the agreement between Pakistan and China for the delivery of High-Tech aircraft J-10 was intact and these aircraft after improving them further would be delivered to PAF in 2014-15. He said these aircraft are being modernized in accordance with the PAF&#8217;s requirements and delivered under the title of FC-20.

Currently PAF is focusing to develop Full-fledged production of JF-17 in Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra.

*Planned Upgrade of JF-17 till 2015.*

The first 50 JF-17s entering Pakistan Air Force service will most likely incorporate only Chinese avionics and other systems. 
Extendable in-flight refueling probes will be added soon. 
*Minor airframe modifications to add two more external hardpoints have also been mentioned by some sources.*

Greater use of composite materials in the airframe to decrease weight. 
Chinese Infra-Red Search and Track (IRST) system, possibly the Type Hongguang-I *Electro-optical radar originally developed for the Chengdu J-10 fighter by Sichuan Changhong Electric Appliance Corporation*. JF-17 is already compatible with this system but currently it must be carried externally in a pod mounted on one of the hardpoints. 
*New engine; most likely the Chinese WS-13 TianShan, although the PAF is considering fitting European powerplants such as the French Snecma M88 to its aircraft. *

*Minor airframe modifications to reduce the aircraft's radar cross-section by adding stealthy features.*

Beyond the initial 50 PAF JF-17s, the remaining production aircraft may also be equipped with European avionics, radars and weaponry. Pakistan had begun negotiations with British and Italian defence firms over potential avionics and radars for JF-17 during initial development. Some of the radar options for JF-17 are the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7and the French Thomson-CSF RC400 (a variant of the RDY-2), along with the MBDA MICA IR/RF short/medium range air-to-air missiles.


This would make the fighter more attractive.


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## SEAL

I heard that advanced version of J-10 is based on MIG 1.41/1.42 design, stealthy features,and ofcourse tvc and pesa airborne radar. so we should wait for better yield..


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## hj786

MZUBAIR said:


> *Pakistan is not getting 36 J-10/FC-20 this year.*
> 
> The order is altered.
> 
> *Now Pakistan is getting almost 50 J-10/FC-20 "high-tech" variant, to be delivered to the PAF in 2014-15, some speculate that this could be a version of the upgraded J-10B model.*
> 
> On March 7th 2009, at agreement signing ceremony of JF-17 Thunder aircraft, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed said the agreement between Pakistan and China for the delivery of High-Tech aircraft J-10 was intact and these aircraft after improving them further would be delivered to PAF in 2014-15. He said these aircraft are being modernized in accordance with the PAFs requirements and delivered under the title of FC-20.
> 
> Currently PAF is focusing to develop Full-fledged production of JF-17 in Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra.
> 
> *Planned Upgrade of JF-17 till 2015.*
> 
> The first 50 JF-17s entering Pakistan Air Force service will most likely incorporate only Chinese avionics and other systems.
> Extendable in-flight refueling probes will be added soon.
> *Minor airframe modifications to add two more external hardpoints have also been mentioned by some sources.*
> 
> Greater use of composite materials in the airframe to decrease weight.
> Chinese Infra-Red Search and Track (IRST) system, possibly the Type Hongguang-I *Electro-optical radar originally developed for the Chengdu J-10 fighter by Sichuan Changhong Electric Appliance Corporation*. JF-17 is already compatible with this system but currently it must be carried externally in a pod mounted on one of the hardpoints.
> *New engine; most likely the Chinese WS-13 TianShan, although the PAF is considering fitting European powerplants such as the French Snecma M88 to its aircraft. *
> 
> *Minor airframe modifications to reduce the aircraft's radar cross-section by adding stealthy features.*
> 
> Beyond the initial 50 PAF JF-17s, the remaining production aircraft may also be equipped with European avionics, radars and weaponry. Pakistan had begun negotiations with British and Italian defence firms over potential avionics and radars for JF-17 during initial development. Some of the radar options for JF-17 are the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7and the French Thomson-CSF RC400 (a variant of the RDY-2), along with the MBDA MICA IR/RF short/medium range air-to-air missiles.
> 
> 
> This would make the fighter more attractive.



Why are you copying these things from Wikipedia and then posting it as if it is accurate information?


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## syedmobeenali

Jian-10B (J-10B) Multirole Fighter Aircraft - SinoDefence.com

updated on official defense site of china.


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## was

IRST for j-10


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## Keysersoze

syedmobeenali said:


> Jian-10B (J-10B) Multirole Fighter Aircraft - SinoDefence.com
> 
> updated on official defense site of china.



SDF is a good site but not a official site.


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## Super Falcon

now paf buy 50 J 10


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## pshamim

Posted on pakdef as well:

Latest on J-10B: 
J-10B was unveilled in December 2008. It had its maiden test flight this month (March 2009)

Some new information about the changes :

*1, Airframe and avionics have been improved;

2. DSI replacing a lot of structures thus reducing weight by almost 300 Kgs and making it stealthier;

3. Reportedly an Electro-optical tracking system (EOTS) has been incorporated into the J-10. In addition EOTS, an IRST and Laser Range Finder has also been added. This will help in passive tracking of enemy target without activating the Fire Control radar;

4. Vertical Electronic warfare pods cabin and Electronic warfare antenna have also been added to the side of the fuselage and tail.*Information still trickling in. We should get more info.

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## M_Saint

pshamim said:


> Posted on pakdef as well:
> 
> Latest on J-10B:
> J-10B was unveilled in December 2008. It had its maiden test flight this month (March 2009)
> 
> Some new information about the changes :
> 
> *1, Airframe and avionics have been improved;
> 
> 2. DSI replacing a lot of structures thus reducing weight by almost 300 Kgs and making it stealthier;
> 
> 3. Reportedly an Electro-optical tracking system (EOTS) has been incorporated into the J-10. In addition EOTS, an IRST and Laser Range Finder has also been added. This will help in passive tracking of enemy target without activating the Fire Control radar;
> 
> 4. Vertical Electronic warfare pods cabin and Electronic warfare antenna have also been added to the side of the fuselage and tail.*Information still trickling in. We should get more info.



Great but please beware that Chanakyas are working day and night to spoil our party. They have started it under the guise of 'Joint exercise against terrorism with our Chinese Brothers' and are now cruising on sending FGs in the upcoming multi-national Naval exercises in CHN. Please be mindful on that. Please take my word on it that they will ultimately try to seduce Chinese not to sell stuff to PAK MIL.

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## pshamim

M_Saint said:


> Great but please beware that Chanakyas are working day and night to spoil our party. They have started it under the guise of 'Joint exercise against terrorism with our Chinese Brothers' and are now cruising on sending FGs in the upcoming multi-national Naval exercises in CHN. Please be mindful on that. Please take my word on it that they will ultimately try to seduce Chinese not to sell stuff to PAK MIL.



I agree. Pakistan has to remain cautious. At the risk of inserting a political note, let me also mention that Chanakyas have found themselves at a great disadvantage now. Being too smart, they tried to toe Bush's strategy to put them as a hedge against the Chinese, resulting in Chanakyas giving a cold shoulder to SCO. Now, after Bush's exit, they find both NATO and SCO's eagerness and insistence of Pakistan's centrality in solving the Afghanistan's problem. Of Course Chanakyas do not like that but they are stuck now.


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## Hasnain2009

^^Who r CHANKYAS??


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## Hasnain2009




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## Rafael

pshamim said:


> Posted on pakdef as well:
> 
> Latest on J-10B:
> J-10B was unveilled in December 2008. It had its maiden test flight this month (March 2009)
> 
> Some new information about the changes :
> 
> *1, Airframe and avionics have been improved;
> 
> 2. DSI replacing a lot of structures thus reducing weight by almost 300 Kgs and making it stealthier;
> 
> 3. Reportedly an Electro-optical tracking system (EOTS) has been incorporated into the J-10. In addition EOTS, an IRST and Laser Range Finder has also been added. This will help in passive tracking of enemy target without activating the Fire Control radar;
> 
> 4. Vertical Electronic warfare pods cabin and Electronic warfare antenna have also been added to the side of the fuselage and tail.*Information still trickling in. We should get more info.




So this means the pictures which were posted by a chinese member on another thread were not photoshopped?


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## M_Saint

pshamim said:


> I agree. Pakistan has to remain cautious. At the risk of inserting a political note, let me also mention that Chanakyas have found themselves at a great disadvantage now. Being too smart, they tried to toe Bush's strategy to put them as a hedge against the Chinese, resulting in Chanakyas giving a cold shoulder to SCO. Now, after Bush's exit, they find both NATO and SCO's eagerness and insistence of Pakistan's centrality in solving the Afghanistan's problem. Of Course Chanakyas do not like that but they are stuck now.


I'm well aware of the LIMBO that they are in right now, brother but please don't discount them yet since the combination of their shrewd and resourcefulness always help them to spearhead toward achieving their cunningness. For example, after seeing PAK's resolve on Afghan affairs they are sending signals to D.C. on taking Talibs with the help of Iranians and Ruskies. And on another front they are relentlessly pushing PAK to become isolated through the declaration of 'Terrorist state'. So, all the upcoming deliveries of SAAB AWACS and F-Solas will be postponed. Please beware of that too and let Medias as well bloggers, Web warriors to play co-ordinate rules just like they have thwarted Chanakya's evil efforts for implicating 'PAK nation as a terrorist one.


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## fatman17

*New J-10 variant sighted*

Ted Parsons, JDW Correspondent

Chinese web pages have featured photos of a new variant of the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) J-10 multirole fighter that appears to confirm a spate of late December 2008 web reports on this same aircraft, with some accounts noting it has already been test flown. 

This single-seat variant differs from the initial single-seat J-10 model in that it appears to feature a revised engine inlet, consistent in design with the diverter-less supersonic inlet (DSI) featured on the latest version of the Chengdu FC-1 lightweight multirole fighter. Reminiscent of the DSI modification first tested on a Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 30 in 1996, this modification saves weight and improves specific engine power and stealth. It also cleans up the J-10's previous complex inlet configuration, which was reportedly prone to vibration. 

China's research on DSIs dates back to the late 1990s, with Chengdu's 611 institute for aerospace design having been assisted by government-funded research at the Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics. 

In addition, this J-10 variant has a new infrared search and track (IRST) system canted to the right of the windscreen, with an apparent smaller optical sensor below the radome area, and a new electronic systems faring near the top of the vertical stabiliser, also similar to that of the FC-1. *In addition, the radome has been changed to a flatter F-16-like profile. The back-leaning angle of the radome attachment bulkhead gives credence to web reports suggesting it also has a new radar, perhaps a new electronically scanned array, either active or passive.* 

The photos do not offer any indication of a new engine, either a new more powerful version of the Russian Saturn AL-31FN or the Chinese developed Liming WS-10A. While these could follow later, this aircraft appears to be an incremental upgrade for the J-10, which would be consistent with previous Chinese practice for indigenously designed combat aircraft. Nevertheless, these upgrades, perhaps to include a new radar, would enhance the aerial combat flexibility of the J-10, positioning it to better compete with the Shenyang J-11B for People's Liberation Army Air Force orders. *It is also suggested that this J-10 is an initial development for what may become the 'FC-20' to be purchased by Pakistan. *

For some time there have been indications, mainly from Russian industry sources, that Chengdu has been developing advanced variants of the J-10. The most near-term upgrade cited by these sources would have used a thrust-vectored version of the AL-31FN to power a potential aircraft carrier variant or one better suited for high-altitude airfields near India.

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## mean_bird



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## pshamim

mean_bird said:


> cqtWP27Ipss[/media] - Analysis of the J-10B



You make a lot of sense. Thanks.


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## was



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## was



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## was

hmmm

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## Rafael

why cant I see the pics?


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## was



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## Abu Zolfiqar

at this point how familar are our pilots with the FC-20s? I assume theyve been getting some strong training in China with Chinese airforce...


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## qaisar52

I have a question here if some one can answer it.
Q. When will be the serial production start for J-10 A or B? Is there a time frame for that?
Thanks
Qaisar


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## araz

Abu Zolfiqar.
Brother, the FC20 has recently flown. All we have are *unconfirmed* reports of PAF having anlyzed the plane and flown it for 40 mins. PAF may have been involved in the changes, so it means that they have a fair idea of what the changes would do to the plane. 

Quaisar52
Brother J10 A is already in production and more than a 100 have been made. As to J10B/FC20. It has had its first test flight recently. The plane is not due to bbe manufactured till 20012.
WaSalam
Araz

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## Kharian_Beast

The recent prototypes will continue to be upgraded and tested according to PAF needs, they are not finished products and we may see brand new engines on FC-20. At this stage I'm still debating whether a tvc engine would be better or not and PAF is probably too.


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## araz

Kharian_Beast said:


> The recent prototypes will continue to be upgraded and tested according to PAF needs, they are not finished products and we may see brand new engines on FC-20. At this stage I'm still debating whether a tvc engine would be better or not and PAF is probably too.



J10 even without any changes is a pretty maneouverable aircraft. What you need is powerful Chinese engine and stealthy features. TVC will add weight and complexity of maintenance. On those grounds i will oppose it. A to further changes, keep them coming brother.
waSalam
Araz


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## Kharian_Beast

araz said:


> J10 even without any changes is a pretty maneouverable aircraft. What you need is powerful Chinese engine and stealthy features. TVC will add weight and complexity of maintenance. On those grounds i will oppose it. A to further changes, keep them coming brother.
> waSalam
> Araz



Well put, indeed J-10A is very capable in the air. TVC would indeed be a maintenance nightmare like the SU30MKI's are. What sort of stealthy features would you like to see ? I think radar absorbent material coating would be top notch. I hope its possible that some weapons are mounted semi-recessed into the aircraft. The key is in RCS reduction, and there is a lot that can be done. 

For example, though very similar aircraft, the RCS of a Rafale is 2 sq. m while that of a Euro Typhoon is 1. If you take a look at the Eurofighter (which FC-20 shares some similarities) it is a small aircraft by many standards, and much of its profile is rounded. The wing, canard and fin leading edges, are highly swept, so this will divert radar energy away from the front portion. Since the FC-20 will be going up against aircraft with AESA radar in the future, low RCS is key. I would like the canopy to be treated as well. The mean aerodynamic chord (MAC) of Dassault Rafale is -5&#37; and that of the EuroTyphoon is -35% respectively. This means that the supersonic drag is lower in the Typhoon making it much more agile, it wastes less energy inmaneuvering. 

AESA radar also would be well worth it, at whatever the cost it is something you simply can not be frugal about in this day and age.


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## Munir

I do not think that more swept wing has lower rcs... Looking forward to get the theory on this...

About supersonic high agility... You can skip that in a nation with zero depth and where agility in subsonic speed and low altitude is far more important then mach 2 and a few g's...

About AESA... Nice to have on AWACS or ground but a fighter based AESA is hardly worth the extra costs. Netcentric is a solution. AWACS is a superb asset. For the rest AESA is at the moment not much wore worth then the normal dish...


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## was

hmm nice cockpit

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## cherryerror

good picture. It is the pilot in the photo above who drove the J10 plane that without power to glide,and land safely. And yesterday he was given a first class award for meritorious service, along with a Air Force Meritorious Golden Medal.

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## omerhhh

Can anyone tell me how big the j-10s radar cross section is?


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## mean_bird

New pics from CDF

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## Kharian_Beast

omerhhh said:


> Can anyone tell me how big the j-10s radar cross section is?



That's not something anyone will willingly disclose on this forum, though the information is out there.


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## Rafael

why cant I see the pics? please someone help!


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## mean_bird

raheel1 said:


> why cant I see the pics? please someone help!



Trying quoting the post, you will see the links of the pictures...copy paste the link in your browser to see the pictures.

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## omerhhh

mean_bird said:


> New pics from CDF



There's a tree in the way!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Kharian_Beast

mean_bird said:


> New pics from CDF



SWEET ! I believe first J-10B pic while airborn!!


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## PAFAce

Maybe a second J-10B airborne. I am not sure. What do you guys think?


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## hj786

PAFAce said:


> Maybe a second J-10B airborne. I am not sure. What do you guys think?



There are no Missile Approach Warning sensors on the base of the tail like the other J-10B pictures. One of the previous pictures also showed no MAW sensor, but some believe that this picture was definitely photoshopped. I think you need to compare the small fins underneath the engine housing (ventral fins) with the other pictures to identify the variant of this J-10.

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## qsaark

hj786 said:


> There are no Missile Approach Warning sensors on the base of the tail like the other J-10B pictures. One of the previous pictures also showed no MAW sensor, but some believe that this picture was definitely photoshopped. I think you need to compare the small fins underneath the engine housing (ventral fins) with the other pictures to identify the variant of this J-10.


Yes, you are right. Look at the attached picture.

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## Kharian_Beast

Generation 4.5 here we come...SU30MKI please kiss your glory days goodbye.


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## Munir

For defense purpose the J10B has a lot better future then the huge MKI. Smaller, lighter, less RCS, better ECM/ECCM, good radar, better in high speed, extremely good in low speed, superb STOL. And add to that unkown to enemy... The Indians have no BVR we do not know... The Indians have not netcentric approach like we do.


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## Kharian_Beast

Munir said:


> I do not think that more swept wing has lower rcs... Looking forward to get the theory on this...



For this answer you must think in geometric terms because we are talking about radar deflection on certain physical planes (I wish I could draw this out but I will do my best to describe it instead). The design of a faceted airframe drastically reduces the number of specular directions from which large echoes are observed but this faceting creates a multiple of ''edges''. The scattering of radar signatures then is spread over the shape of a cone. When viewed from a normal incidence, the ''edge'' collapses to a disk and the intensity can be strong enough to be picked up by even relatively weak radar. Even if you manage to angle a surface so that the surface is never seen from a direction anywhere near the direction of its ''surface normal'', there still may be an edge with a large number of of specular directions spread over a plane perpendicular to the edge. So even though aviation manufacturers may rely on shaping to direct a specular surface reflection away from the radar, they must also rely on shaping to direct edge scattering away from radar. This means you choose the *sweep angle *of the *wing **to direct the edge diffraction out of the threat cone*, which is usually centered on the direction of flight. 



> About supersonic high agility... You can skip that in a nation with zero depth and where agility in subsonic speed and low altitude is far more important then mach 2 and a few g's...



No arguments here, this is why I stated the key is in RCS reduction though nothing wrong with having the capability on your side when **** hits the fan. 



> About AESA... Nice to have on AWACS or ground but a fighter based AESA is hardly worth the extra costs. Netcentric is a solution. AWACS is a superb asset. For the rest AESA is at the moment not much wore worth then the normal dish...



If your AWACS goes offline in a variety of conceivable scenarios, it will not have dire consequences for the entire fleet if your top tier fighter aircraft have powerful AESA radars. Our AWACS should be used to direct the Thunder and F-16 among various others and that in itself is more than 300 aircraft being directed by a handful of AWACS platforms.

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## Munir

>>>For this answer you must think in geometric terms because we are talking about radar deflection on certain physical planes (I wish I could draw this out but I will do my best to describe it instead). The design of a faceted airframe drastically reduces the number of specular directions from which large echoes are observed but this faceting creates a multiple of ''edges''. The scattering of radar signatures then is spread over the shape of a cone. When viewed from a normal incidence, the ''edge'' collapses to a disk and the intensity can be strong enough to be picked up by even relatively weak radar. Even if you manage to angle a surface so that the surface is never seen from a direction anywhere near the direction of its ''surface normal'', there still may be an edge with a large number of of specular directions spread over a plane perpendicular to the edge. So even though aviation manufacturers may rely on shaping to direct a specular surface reflection away from the radar, they must also rely on shaping to direct edge scattering away from radar. This means you choose the *sweep angle *of the *wing **to direct the edge diffraction out of the threat cone*, which is usually centered on the direction of flight. 

The only part of the frontal wing area that contributes to refelection is the space between slats... And then we talk about certain slats angles... You can add angles in the space between the slats to that to avoid it. The F22 has a good example how to do that. There is no impact for x degrees or more... Any fighterjet has sweep in its wing unless you talk about ww2 era... And even those have minor radar reflection if you take the wing. Just in case we do not have the same idea... RCS is often only the frontal section. So we talking about head on. If you talk about above or lower then you just might think about curving but it will have lots of impact on your weight cause making that stiff enough will cost you enough headache. Since you talk about sweep I guess you are talking about frontal area... I am looking forward to a drawing cause sofar there is no reason for me to change practice or theory. 



>>>No arguments here, this is why I stated the key is in RCS reduction though nothing wrong with having the capability on your side when **** hits the fan. 

If you have something like F22 and even then the plane is nothing without superb network of sats and radar. There is no **** that comes from India. They had some with Mig25 but if they had something like that now we would sit in bunkers in Islamabad. Don't go overestimating everyone... One side you talk about getting Mirage 2000 and the other side you think that even JSF is not good enough.


>>>If your AWACS goes offline in a variety of conceivable scenarios, it will not have dire consequences for the entire fleet if your top tier fighter aircraft have powerful AESA radars. Our AWACS should be used to direct the Thunder and F-16 among various others and that in itself is more than 300 aircraft being directed by a handful of AWACS platforms.

Do you think that anyone would add an awacs that could go offline? The AESA is not a magic stick... At the moment you are talking about development and not active. The power of awacs depend on size and computing power (often even related to cooling power). Good luck in adding something good enough is a "light" fighter. And just in cast you do not know... The radar is not that cheap that you would go for 100+... Otherwise everyone would have one.

Just for fun... Do you have technical or airforce background? Not to irritate you but I miss often facts in your theories.


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## Kharian_Beast

> The only part of the frontal wing area that contributes to refelection is the space between slats... And then we talk about certain slats angles... You can add angles in the space between the slats to that to avoid it. The F22 has a good example how to do that. There is no impact for x degrees or more... Any fighterjet has sweep in its wing unless you talk about ww2 era... And even those have minor radar reflection if you take the wing. Just in case we do not have the same idea... RCS is often only the frontal section. So we talking about head on. If you talk about above or lower then you just might think about curving but it will have lots of impact on your weight cause making that stiff enough will cost you enough headache. Since you talk about sweep I guess you are talking about frontal area... I am looking forward to a drawing cause sofar there is no reason for me to change practice or theory.



I think I have lost you. 




> Don't go overestimating everyone... One side you talk about getting Mirage 2000 and the other side you think that even JSF is not good enough.



I've never participated in the Mirage 2000 thread and this thread is about FC-20 not JSF which I have never mentioned before, so I guess you are pulling facts out of the air again. 





> Not to irritate you but I miss often facts in your theories.



What a coincidence! I often have the same problem reading your posts.


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## Munir

The I ask you to draw how you would explain that the frontal RCS is lower if the wing is more sweeped... Can't be that difficult cause you say that you know the facts. And if you could earn a few thanks then that would be an extra, wouldn't it?

So let us draw a frontal wing area... One is sweeped 30 degrees and the other 45 degrees... You are using a radar that is located in front of the plane... How much waves will be able to return to you dish? You can use any type of radar...


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## Kharian_Beast

Munir said:


> The I ask you to draw how you would explain that the frontal RCS is lower if the wing is more sweeped...



I will kindly re-state : 

The scattering of radar signatures from the edges of a faceted surface (wing of an airplane in this case) is spread over the shape of a cone. This means you choose the sweep angle of the wing to direct the edge diffraction out of the threat cone. The more swept at a certain angle the less discernable clutter from these edges of the wing.

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## mean_bird

Munir said:


> I do not think that more swept wing has lower rcs... Looking forward to get the theory on this...
> 
> About supersonic high agility... You can skip that in a nation with zero depth and where agility in subsonic speed and low altitude is far more important then mach 2 and a few g's...
> 
> About AESA... Nice to have on AWACS or ground but a fighter based AESA is hardly worth the extra costs. Netcentric is a solution. AWACS is a superb asset. For the rest AESA is at the moment not much wore worth then the normal dish...




Munir Sahib,

For head-on detection (frontal) - the more sweep a wing has, the less the detectability (or in other words lower RCS). 

This has to do with scattering of reflecting radar waves. By have more sweep, you move the 'cone' of these reflected waves away from the emitting radar wave source.

For further details, including diagrams you may refer to the book "Aircraft design" by Jan Roskam page 142. You can preview the book (including the page referred to) on google books for free.




> Do you think that anyone would add an awacs that could go offline? The AESA is not a magic stick... At the moment you are talking about development and not active. The power of awacs depend on size and computing power (often even related to cooling power). Good luck in adding something good enough is a "light" fighter. And just in cast you do not know... The radar is not that cheap that you would go for 100+... Otherwise everyone would have one.



True AWACS are not added for going offline, but in a war you don't want to end up in a situation where the enemy can shoot down your AWACS and you have nothing as a back-up. 

Secondly, for offensive strike mission you will not have the support of AWACS. In such a scenario, it it will be wise for one or two of your striking unit to be equipped with a long range very powerful AESA Radar and be data-linked with the others to act as a mini-AWACS. Kind of what was missing in Cope India where the US had practiced 1:3 numerical deficiency with atleast 2 of their F-15 having a long range AESA radar. In Cope India, these radars were lacking and we all know what happened.

In my humble opinion, having very powerful AESA radars on 2-3 squadrons of FC-20 would be very handy both in strike mission as well as acting like a 'mini-AWACS' despite the cost involved. Hopefully, by the timeline (2014-15), China will have a functioning, tested and reliable AESA radar.

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## mean_bird

Munir said:


> The I ask you to draw how you would explain that the frontal RCS is lower if the wing is more sweeped... Can't be that difficult cause you say that you know the facts. And if you could earn a few thanks then that would be an extra, wouldn't it?
> 
> So let us draw a frontal wing area... One is sweeped 30 degrees and the other 45 degrees... You are using a radar that is located in front of the plane... How much waves will be able to return to you dish? You can use any type of radar...



Try the attached file, it will help.

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## qsaark

mean_bird said:


> Try the attached file, it will help.


Yes you are right. Some more information can be obtained from here Radar cross section - Google Book Search

6.4. Diffraction at Page 250 - 256

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## Munir

mean_bird said:


> Try the attached file, it will help.



So as can be seen on the provided info none of the original waves returns to the receiver... And often people tend to think that wing contributes a lot to RCS... It is more the intake, the sensors, the canopy... Only if the slats are made of "composite" that do not reflect radar then the nextr layer is thick enough to do that... If something is printed doesn't mean that it is correct.

About the provided info... I am more intrested in these kind of info then the basic.

Fundamentals of EM waves

Electromagnetic (EM) waves are created by time-varying currents and charges. Their interactions with materials obey the boundary conditions of Maxwell&#8217;s equations. EM waves can be guided by structures (transmission lines) or by free space. An antenna is a material structure that directs EM fields from a source into space, or, by reciprocity, from space to a receiver. The shape and size of the antenna controls the transition from the near field to the far field.

The near field consists of the reactive near field, also known as the quasi-static near field, and the radiating near field also known as the Fresnel zone or Fresnel region. In the quasi-static near field we see fields that strongly resemble the electrostatic fields of a charge dipole for a dipole antenna and the fields of a magnetic dipole for a loop antenna. In large antennas the quasi-static field can be seen near edges.

In the Fresnel zone the waves are clearly not plane and may have phase shifts that do not vary linearly with distance from a (fictitious) phase center.

From the near field to the far field, EM radiation changes from spherical waves to plane waves. The far-field is sometimes called the Fraunhoffer region.

Common to all electrically small (less than a wavelength) antennas is that the near field excites the environment in which the antenna resides. It&#8217;s the antenna combined with its environment that radiates EM waves. Electrically small antennas include:

Before tackling the near field, it&#8217;s best to understand the behavior of the far field. Far from the source, the spherical EM waves flatten out and can be treated like plane waves. The power density is given by:

Ptransmitted/Area spread out = W/m2

In the far field, E-field and H-field are proportional to 1/radius. The Poynting vector (power/area) is given by E x H. Therefore, power density drops as 1/radius2.

Electrically large antennas are good sources of plane waves in the laboratory. A large antenna focuses the power, this is called directivity, or directive gain. 

The antenna creates a large (D>>) area of electromagnetic field, with nearly uniform phase.

*Then you go into more about reflections of radar beams...
*
An absorber with &#8211;12 dB return loss allows the scatterer to get twice as close to the radar before being detected, compared to an object with 0 dB return loss.

Radar cross-section is dominated by shape, because it's the shape that governs how much of the incident power is captured and sent back, as illustrated in the three examples below, where the objects are assumed to be large compared to the incident wavelength. For a cylinder, the reflected signal is proportional to 1/lamda. On the right is a sphere, which also reflects back a signal proportional to the radius of the sphere (and not a function of wavelength).

Orientation of the shape is critical. The worst case when the wave is incident perpendicular to a flat part of the surface, which results in specular reflection. Canting the surfaces redirects this echo.

Beware of "corner reflectors" when you are designing for low radar cross-section, as shown below. Inside corners can increase your radar cross-section much more than you'd imagine.

*If the specular echo is redirected, the remainder is the next greatest contributor to radar cross-section. It is due to diffraction, which is caused by discontinuities of the surface. Discontinuities imply a change in the boundary conditions; and boundary conditions are what govern the distribution of the fields in the first place. Metals at radio frequency behave nearly like perfect electric conductors (PECs). This invokes a well-known boundary condition of Maxwell's equations: the tangential E-field must go to zero on the surface of a conductor.*

Where did the energy go if total ETE =>0? It goes into the H-field:

On metal surfaces, E total is always perpendicular to the surface, and H total is parallel to the surface. On the shadow side the E-field attaches and travels along the surface at the speed of light. Equal and opposite charges created at the leading edge create almost no scatter. On the illuminated side we get a running (traveling) wave consisting of incident and reflected waves until it runs out of surface. Then it scatters strongly.

V-Pol, TM incidence on wing
*
For horizontal polarization (H-pol) it is the leading edge of an object such as of an aircraft wing that scatters strongly. The leading edge gets a very strong current induced in it whose job is to create the wave that exactly cancels the E field tangential to the metal. Clearly the radar cross-section reduction job is different for leading edges and trailing edges. Because Etotal = 0, there is no significant diffraction off the trailing edge.*

I do not mind that you guys have a different opinion and it is good to have these kind of more technical discussions. As an engineer we know what to see as valuable informaton. As an engineer you need to think beyond the crap posted by journalists. The copy pasted text above pretty much explains why the theory of wingsweep is hardly worth to be seen as correct. It depends on other more complex factors. It depends on beam theory and how certain materials behave when being beamed... Maybe you know understand that some composites are nice to have when you want weight reduction but they are pain in the a when you need lower RCS...

I am not intrested in more thanks. Just trying to contribute.

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## sohailbutt

I don't know whether this was posted before, anyway i've posted it here.

Changes look good but an expert eye will know what effects they will actually have on the fighter capabilities, not me.


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## mean_bird

Nice model diagram of the supposed J10B posted on CDF

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## kiuppal

Is there any effect of DSI on maximum payload ?


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## was

so can someone tell me if this improvement on j-10 is real or only a dream of chinese fanboys??? please


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## PAFAce

was said:


> so can someone tell me if this improvement on j-10 is real or only a dream of chinese fanboys??? please



Good question. The changes in a lot of these pictures are more or less consistent with each other and with what had been forecasted by experts. Also, the changes just make a lot of sense. If this is not the J-10B prototype, it is very close to it.


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## BATMAN

was said:


> so can someone tell me if this improvement on j-10 is real or only a dream of chinese fanboys??? please



On various occasions it has been confirmed by many Chinese members that development of J10-B is for real and those drawings describes the changes.

Now it has also been clear that some time down the line Pakistan will be getting those J10-B.


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## AchtungSpitfire

That looks so much like the F-16. Their best looking fighter so far.

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## PAFAce

First ever attempt to photoshop a fighter jet. Let me know what you think.

*FC-20*




Attention: I do not take credit of the original work. Only the colour-scheme and PAF insignia.

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## spurdozer

Looks Gr8 PAFace


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## Luftwaffe

Are there any significant changes to the Wings similar to EF-2000 or rafale? are there any plans to bring changes to it, cuz i have noticed wings are same or am i wrong?


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## Munir

PAFAce said:


> First ever attempt to photoshop a fighter jet. Let me know what you think.
> 
> *FC-20*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Attention: I do not take credit of the original work. Only the colour-scheme and PAF insignia.



It looks awesome... If you make kind o triangles then it would look more aggressive... But this surely looks like a winner to me.


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## wangrong

enjoy

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## hj786

Thanks for those pictures PAFAce and Wangrong, they look great.

Just to post something on FC-20/J-10B, copied from a post by "challenge" on SinoDefence.com forum.
http://www.*********************/air-force/new-j-10-thread-iii-20-4290.html (replace the stars with "sinodefenceforum")


challenge (*********************) said:


> &#20420;&#23186;&#65306;&#20013;&#22269;&#27516;10B&#35013;&#22791;&#20445;&#24418;&#27833;&#31665;&#23558;&#20986;&#21475;&#24052;&#22522;&#26031;&#22374;
> 
> &#12288;
> &#19996;&#26041;&#32593;&#28040;&#24687;&#65306;&#25454;&#20420;&#32599;&#26031;&#33322;&#31354;&#28207;&#32593;&#31449;&#25253;&#36947;&#65292;&#20013;&#22269;&#30340;&#25104;&#37117;&#39134;&#26426;&#24037;&#19994;&#38598;&#22242;(CAC)&#24050;&#24320;&#22987;&#30528;&#25163;&#29983;&#20135;&#21452;&#24231;&#22411; &#30340;&#27516;-10&#22411;&#25112;&#26007;&#26426;&#65293;&#65293;&#27516;-10B&#12290;&#20854;&#23545;&#24052;&#22522;&#26031;&#22374;&#20986;&#21475;&#26102;&#30340;&#21517;&#31216;&#23558;&#26159;FC-20&#12290;
> &#12288;&#12288;&#24052;&#31354;&#20891;&#28040;&#24687;&#20154;&#22763;&#36879;&#38706;&#65292;&#24052;&#26041;&#23558;&#37319;&#36141;36&#65293;100&#26550;FC-20&#12290;&#20013;&#26041;&#30340;&#20379;&#36135;&#23558;&#22312;2014&#65293;2015&#24180;&#38388;&#24320;&#22987;&#12290;
> 
> &#19982;&#35299;&#25918;&#20891;&#31354;&#20891;&#29616;&#24441;&#30340;&#27516;-10A&#30456;&#27604;&#65292;&#27516;-10B&#23558;&#35013;&#22791;&#21487;&#25511;&#30690;&#37327;&#25512;&#21147;&#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#65292;&#26426;&#36523;&#20004;&#20391;&#20063;&#23558;&#23433;&#35013;&#19982;&#32654;&#22269;F-16 Block 60&#31867;&#20284;&#30340;&#20445;&#24418;&#27833;&#31665;&#12290;&#20174;&#30446;&#21069;&#20844;&#24067;&#30340;&#29031;&#29255;&#19978;&#26469;&#30475;&#65292;&#27516;-10B&#30340;&#26426;&#36523;&#20004;&#20391;&#20986;&#29616;&#20102;&#39069;&#22806;&#30340;&#22825;&#32447;&#65292;&#36825;&#34920;&#26126;&#65292;CAC&#24050;&#20026;&#20854;&#26356;&#25442;&#20102;&#26032;&#22411;&#26080;&#32447;&#30005;&#30005;&#23376;&#35774;&#22791;&#12290;&#26377;&#19987;&#23478;&#25512;&#27979;&#65292;&#27516; -10B&#36824;&#23558;&#35013;&#22791;&#20027;&#21160;&#30456;&#25511;&#38453;&#38647;&#36798;&#12290;
> &#12288;&#12288;&#25454;&#24713;&#65292;&#27516;-10B&#30340;&#30740;&#21046;&#24037;&#20316;&#22987;&#20110;2004&#65293;2005&#24180;&#38388;&#65292;&#24182;&#22312;2008&#24180;12&#26376;&#20221;&#23436;&#25104;&#20102;&#39318;&#27425;&#39134;&#34892;&#12290;&#20174;&#29031;&#29255;&#19978;&#21028;&#26029;&#65292;&#35813;&#26426; &#37319;&#29992;&#20102;&#37325;&#26032;&#35774;&#35745;&#30340;&#26080;&#38468;&#38754;&#23618;&#38548;&#36947;&#36229;&#38899;&#36895;&#36827;&#27668;&#36947;(DSI)&#65292;&#19981;&#20294;&#20943;&#36731;&#20102;&#39134;&#26426;&#30340;&#25972;&#20307;&#37325;&#37327;&#65292;&#32780;&#19988;&#36824;&#38477;&#20302;&#20102;&#38647;&#36798;&#21453;&#23556;&#38754; &#31215;&#12290;
> &#12288;&#12288;&#38500;&#27492;&#20043;&#22806;&#65292;&#27516;-10B&#36824;&#35013;&#22791;&#20102;&#19982;&#33487;-30MKK&#31867;&#20284;&#30340;&#20809;&#30005;&#36319;&#36394;&#31995;&#32479;&#12290;&#35813;&#31995;&#32479;&#37197;&#32622;&#20110;&#25112;&#26426;&#24231;&#33329;&#30422;&#30340;&#21491;&#21069;&#26041;&#65292;&#30001;&#19968;&#37096;&#32418;&#22806;&#25628;&#32034;&#36319;&#36394;&#20256;&#24863;&#22120;&#21644;&#19968;&#37096;&#28608;&#20809;&#27979;&#36317;&#20202;&#65292;&#21487;&#20197;&#34987;&#21160;&#24335;&#25506;&#27979;&#25932;&#26041;&#30446;&#26631;&#32780;&#26080;&#38656;&#24320;&#21551;&#28779;&#25511;&#38647;&#36798;&#65292;&#20174;&#32780;&#38477;&#20302;&#34987;&#25932;&#26041;&#25112;&#26426;&#21457;&#29616;&#30340;&#27010;&#29575;&#12290;&#33267;&#20110;&#27516;-10B&#22402;&#23614;&#19978;&#26041;&#22686;&#21152;&#30340;&#19968;&#20010;&#36739;&#22823;&#25972;&#27969;&#32617;&#65292;&#37324;&#38754;&#24456;&#21487;&#33021;&#23433;&#35013;&#20102;&#30005;&#23376;&#25112;&#21644;&#30005;&#23376;&#23545;&#25239;&#35774;&#22791;&#12290;
> &#12288;&#12288;&#38500;&#27492;&#20043;&#22806;&#65292;&#27516;-10B&#26426;&#36523;&#21644;&#26426;&#32764;&#19979;&#30340;&#27494;&#22120;&#25346;&#28857;&#20063;&#23558;&#26377;&#25152;&#22686;&#21152;&#65292;&#24182;&#20250;&#21152;&#25346;&#30446;&#26631;&#25351;&#31034;&#21514;&#33329;&#12290;&#26377;&#28040;&#24687;&#31216;&#65292;&#27516;-10B&#35745;&#21010;&#24471;&#21040;&#20102;&#20420;&#32599;&#26031;&#8220;&#31859;&#26684;&#8221;&#39134;&#26426;&#21046;&#36896;&#20844;&#21496;&#19987;&#23478;&#30340;&#25216;&#26415;&#24110;&#21161;&#12290;(&#26149;&#39118
> 
> CHina has developed conformal fuel tank for J-10,export version designated as FC-20,the first customer is pakistan AF.



A google translation of the Chinese text:



> Translation: Chinese &#187; English
> 
> Daily News: It is reported that the Russian aviation website in Hong Kong, China's Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAC) has started production of the F-type two-seater fighter aircraft -10 - F-10B. *When its exports to Pakistan will be the name of FC-20.
> Pakistan Air Force sources, the Palestinian side will purchase 36-100 aircraft FC-20. China's supply will start at between 2014-2015.*
> 
> And the People's Liberation Army Air Force active duty *compared to the F-10A, F-10B will be equipped with thrust vector control engines, the fuselage will also be installed on both sides with the United States F-16 Block 60 similar conformal fuel tanks. Published photos from the current point of view, the F-10B on both sides of the fuselage had extra antenna, which shows that, CAC has been for the replacement of a new type of radio electronic equipment. Experts have speculated that the F-10B will be equipped with active phased array radar.*
> The F-10B's development began in 2004-2005 and completed in December 2008 the first flight. To judge from the photos on,* it has been redesigned using the free boundary layer separated Road supersonic inlet (DSI)*, will not only reduce the overall weight of the plane, but also reduces the area of radar reflectivity.
> In addition, the *F-10B is equipped with the Su-30MKK similar electro-optical tracking system.* The system configuration *in the plane right in front of the canopy, by an infrared search and track sensor and a laser range finder* can be passive and do not aim to detect the enemy opened fire control radar, thus reducing the enemy fighters were found in the probability. As for *F-10B vertical increase in the top of a larger fairing, which is likely to install the electronic warfare and electronic countermeasure equipment.*
> In addition, the *F-10B airframe and wing weapons under the mount point will also be increased, and will add instructions linked pod goal.* It is reported that F-10B program have been Russia's "MiG" aircraft manufacturing company of technical assistance experts. (Spring)



Please discuss.


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## Munir

If they started building then it is a bit unrealistic that delivery will be starting in 2014/15... Pak delayed the J10. They do not want extra cash flow to Zardari, not having introduction of Block52/JF17 an J10 at the same time, time to add western electronics/weapons etc etc

The posted article above is pretty unclear... It doesn't say anything that adds to our knowledge.


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## PAFAce

Thanks a lot to everyone for appreciating my work. It means a lot. I _should_ have been studying for my exams, but I was hooked onto it for hours (its addictive!).

Munir: Thanks for the contructive criticism. What do you mean by "more triangle"? As in, the camo patterns should be more pointy?



> F-10B will be equipped with thrust vector control engines



I have been wondering that for a while now. The rest of the stuff is pretty well known and discussed. Thanks hj786 for posting that. Since you seem to be a frequent visitor to that forum, how reliable, according to you, is this source?

If the J-10B does have thrust vectoring, I can no longer think of anything that would give the Su-30MKI an advantage over the J-10B (except for payload and distance), but even those advantages can be mitigated through numberical deployment and A2A refuelling.


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## Kharian_Beast

PAFAce said:


> If the J-10B does have thrust vectoring, I can no longer think of anything that would give the Su-30MKI an advantage over the J-10B (except for payload and distance), but even those advantages can be mitigated through numberical deployment and A2A refuelling.



Thrust vectoring isn't always an advantage, most aircraft don't even bother with it mostly due to maintenance issues. At this point I believe the TVC rumour mostly stems from fanboy sources.


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## Munir

PAFAce said:


> Munir: Thanks for the contructive criticism. What do you mean by "more triangle"? As in, the camo patterns should be more pointy?



Well, if it is worth watching then you did a great job.

Here an example about more straight lines... You do not have to go beyond 2 colours but this works very well or blending.

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## PAFAce

Kharian_Beast said:


> Thrust vectoring isn't always an advantage, most aircraft don't even bother with it mostly due to maintenance issues. At this point I believe the TVC rumour mostly stems from fanboy sources.



You are correct. There is a rule in engineering, the more moving/complex parts you have, the shorter the mean time between failure (MTBF). Just ask the designers of the Advanced Tactical Fighter (Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrop, Pratt and Whitney, General Electric etc). They had a terrible time trying to meet both performance and reliability, maintainability & supportability (RM&S) requirements. Originally, the ATF was supposed to have "thrust reversing" too, but that would have increased the engine weight and RM&S issues to unacceptable levels.

What I meant by that statement was that I don't see any reason why the J-10B should not be able to counter the Su-30MKI effectively, both BVR and WVR (assuming all the TVC, AESA, BVRAAM, etc. rumors are true). This would mean that India would no longer have a qualitative edge over us (though the quantitative edge would remain).



Munir said:


> Here an example about more straight lines... You do not have to go beyond 2 colours but this works very well or blending.



That is just a gorgeous paint job on an awsome looking plane. Saw that picture in the Media section and just _had_ to save it. I will keep that in mind next time (hopefully, after the exams). Thanks, again, for your help.

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## Kharian_Beast

Agree to both posts above.


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## hj786

Kharian_Beast said:


> Thrust vectoring isn't always an advantage, most aircraft don't even bother with it mostly due to maintenance issues. At this point I believe the TVC rumour mostly stems from fanboy sources.



I recall reading a news article in which it was reported that ex-Air Chief Tanvir M. Ahmad mentioned FC-20 was chosen from "dozens of other candidates" partly due to its "use of advanced Russian engines with thrust vectoring." Can somebody find this news article? Pretty sure its here somewhere, I remember it cos an Indian poster on World Affairs Board was making fun of the Air Chief for saying "dozens of other candidates"... he added a sarcastic comment, something like "a dozen, nay, a double dozen candidates!" 

Munir, if it is true, then FC-20 has conformal fuel tanks - I certainly did not know that. Can you tell me more about the implications of this feature? Is it for boosting loitering time or range? Is it to make FC-20 a strike platform (shouldn't this job be done by ALCMs?) or a CAP fighter for defending AEW/Cs, refuellers and other PAF force multipliers from attack (shouldn't this job be done by JF-17?).
(Also, can you tell us anything on the Naar UCAV you mentioned in another post, or do we have to wait for the 2 months?)



PAFAce said:


> Thanks a lot to everyone for appreciating my work. It means a lot. I _should_ have been studying for my exams, but I was hooked onto it for hours (its addictive!).


 Good luck with those exams!


PAFAce said:


> Thanks hj786 for posting that. Since you seem to be a frequent visitor to that forum, how reliable, according to you, is this source?


Not reliable at the moment, waiting to see what Crobato and TPHuang say about it. I dunno, if FC-20 was to have conformal fuel tanks, why weren't they seen on the J-10B prototypes? We have seen everything else though, except perhaps the TVC engines. Maybe the CFTs and TVC engines will come later.


PAFAce said:


> If the J-10B does have thrust vectoring, I can no longer think of anything that would give the Su-30MKI an advantage over the J-10B (except for payload and distance), but even those advantages can be mitigated through numberical deployment and A2A refuelling.


TVC still isn't combat proven, I'd rather see that money sunk into ramjet BVRAAMs like MBDA Meteor and seekers that combine radar homing and IR guidance to get around the problems of both, particularly the ECM problem for radar homing missiles. TVC might give PAF a small advantage in 1v1 fights, but a superior BVR missile will be far more devastating to enemy air forces.


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## Quwa

_Pakistan's air force picked the FC-20 from dozens of candidates as it adapted Russian engines with the most advanced thrust vectoring technology, the general said._

Pakistan to introduce 36 China-made fighter planes | Pakistan Daily


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## qsaark

DOZENS (more than or at-least 24) of other candidates? Realistically speaking, what other option PAF had besides F-16s?

F-22 = No, not available to PAF
F-35 = No, not available to PAF
F-18 = No, not available to PAF
F-15 = No, not available to PAF
F-16 Block 52+ = Yes, lots of strings attached
Grippen = Maybe, but strings attached
Typhoon = No, too expensive
Mirage 2000 = Yes, mystery surrounds the M2K issue
Rafael = No, too expensive
J-11 = No, not available to PAF
J-10 = Yes

This list includes fewer than one dozen aircrafts, God knows from where the DOZEN OF OTHER CANDIDATES came from.

My understanding is, ACM would have never made this statement, if he made, it has been altered by the journalist who reported that.

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## cqjjccwj

According to the Russian Aviation and Hong Kong website reported that the Chinese Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group (CAC) has started production of the F-type two-seater fighter aircraft -10 - F-10B. When its exports to Pakistan will be the name of FC-20.

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## cqjjccwj

And the People's Liberation Army Air Force active duty compared to the F-10A, F-10B will be equipped with thrust vector control engines, the fuselage will also be installed on both sides with the United States F-16 Block 60 similar conformal fuel tanks. Published photos from the current point of view, the F-10B on both sides of the fuselage had extra antenna, which shows that, CAC has been for the replacement of a new type of radio electronic equipment. Experts have speculated that the F-10B will be equipped with active phased array radar.

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## mean_bird

qsaark said:


> DOZENS (more than or at-least 24) of other candidates? Realistically speaking, what other option PAF had besides F-16s?
> 
> F-22 = No, not available to PAF
> F-35 = No, not available to PAF
> F-18 = No, not available to PAF
> F-15 = No, not available to PAF
> F-16 Block 52+ = Yes, lots of strings attached
> Grippen = Maybe, but strings attached
> Typhoon = No, too expensive
> Mirage 2000 = Yes, mystery surrounds the M2K issue
> Rafael = No, too expensive
> J-11 = No, not available to PAF
> J-10 = Yes
> 
> This list includes fewer than one dozen aircrafts, God knows from where the DOZEN OF OTHER CANDIDATES came from.
> 
> My understanding is, ACM would have never made this statement, if he made, it has been altered by the journalist who reported that.



Please excuse our journalists...their head goes dumb when it comes to numbers or anything technical. That's what you get when a journalist gets a job because he is someone's chacha/mama/bhatija/bhanja rather then on merit.

btw, F-18 not available to PAF, correct me if I miss something but did we ever request any of those? it seems the USAF preferred the F-16 over the F-18 (which was preferred by the navy) so presumably the F-16s are more suitable for us too. And we do not operate an aircraft carrier.

With our current F-16, I don't think PAF would consider buying F-18 irrespective of whether they are available or not.

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## zombie:-)

hello guys 

seems to be some hot discussions going on about VECTORED THRUST CONTROL 

ok any aircraft for that matter including the mki will defenately be more maintainance intensive because of the number of parts involved in the TVC setup ...remember it will not directly affect the engine performance ...reports of it affecting is just BS ...as the TVC kit will just deflect the thrust or the exhaust gasses coming out of the engines ....this setup is just the next level of *exhaust nozzles* present on any after burning turbofan engines ...hence it will not hinder performance of any aircraft engine ....one more thing is that the russian TVC setup comes as kits to the engines ..these kits can be installed on any engine the kit is designed for even the decade old russian aircrafts can be fitted with them ..but it will require changes in the avionics systems thats anothe issue ...it there are MECHANICAL problems regarding TVC we can just remove the faulty kit and install a new one ...hence i dont think it will be much of a bothering issue


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## hj786

Mark Sien said:


> _Pakistan's air force picked the FC-20 from dozens of candidates as it adapted Russian engines with the most advanced thrust vectoring technology, the general said._
> 
> Pakistan to introduce 36 China-made fighter planes | Pakistan Daily



Thanks for posting that link Mark. A fellow called Jawad on sinodefence forum has pointed out that in another interview, CAS said FC-20 would not need CFT because it already has large fuel tanks, which when combined with aerial refuelling give enough range. I'm certain that interview is around here somewhere too. So we have one for and one against the above source posted at sinodefence?


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## BATMAN

cqjjccwj said:


> Published photos from the current point of view, the F-10B on both sides of the fuselage had extra antenna, which shows that, CAC has been for the replacement of a new type of *radio electronic equipment*.


Does this means counter measure / jammers?

No mention of the IRST sensors, shown on the pictures? optical tracking system can be considered as big plus!

Over all J10-B will be more stealth, more manuevarable, better engine, more sensors, better radar, more wepon pods....

And most of above count down has started!


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## mean_bird

BATMAN said:


> Does this means counter measure / jammers?
> 
> No mention of the IRST sensors, shown on the pictures? optical tracking system can be considered as big plus!
> 
> Over all J10-B will be more stealth, more manuevarable, better engine, more sensors, better radar, more wepon pods....
> 
> And most of above count down has started!



It could be referring to secure and uninterrupted radio communication.


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## Keysersoze

Seromontis said:


> ok so i think there is new j-10b out according to pictures i dont know if its fake or not but i'll assume its real. anyway discuss info on j-10b like radar, engine, new avionics, etc...
> 
> oh and plx plx dont post fanboy stuff that will take 5-10 years to happen like aesa, tvc, supercruise, stealth, etc... UNLESS you have a credible source (not local or chinese media either). truth is china hasn't mastered engine technology yet the ws-10 is a start but they are almost a decade or 2 away from ingenious tvc or supercruise engine, and aesa radar is most likely 5 years away for china only country that has aesa atm is the USA.
> 
> so let me start by saying that the j-10b is expected to have an al-31 engine or an ws-10 most likely it'll be ws-10.
> 
> so can someone tell me the benefits of this engine over the al-31?



New here and so many opinions huh? right since we can't use Chinese sources which ones should we use? Martian? Indian?

Now you must have some special sources because you are ruling everything out then expect us to come up with discussion topics?

Heres a Idea for you........The stealth CAn be discussed as the features shown in the picture give the aircraft more LO features. 

The Chinese have been developing the WS-10 since 1998 and it was shown with TVC (there are 4 versions of the engine) on Chinese television in 2002
in fact the Chinese have been tinkering with engines for a while and may have learned a few things (after all their students are known to be quite bright)

As for radar that is merely conjecture but the first radar in the JF-17 is a Chinese one and that was chosen over Western ones that should tell you how quickly the Chinese have progressed.

Do some more reading then come back....

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## Neo

Lemme see what we have here. A Canadian using a Bengali flag and posting from Kalamazoo (US), asking us to refrain from fanboys stuff but seems to have more insight in the timeframe of the J-10B's development than most of D.Pk's experts all together....my guess is that we have a genius here, probably named Gupta or Singh!

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## Keysersoze

naaah Neo its a nitwit we have banned a few times he keeps coming back with the same Crap........lol I should have checked before I replied to the fool.


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## Neo

Damn....can't we keep it a little longer...for lil fun?
I promis to give it food and water...

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## Keysersoze

Dude thats what you said the previous 6 times..........


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## Zob

lol Neo and Keysersoze...don't ban him this time it will be fun honig our skills on Bharat rakshak boys its fun to hear the utopian world they live in....where everything chinese is crap and everything that India buys is the "MOST ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY IN THE WORLD"

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## Munir

I think we have onother toilet from India being flushed cause suddenly there are a lot of Indian posters trying to post as much as possible and thank eachother for poting crap...


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## spurdozer

Neo saheb. Talking of supercruise J-10 is not going to have this tech??? Isn't it!!!


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## araz

Munir said:


> I think we have onother toilet from India being flushed cause suddenly there are a lot of Indian posters trying to post as much as possible and thank eachother for poting crap...



Why is Indian Toilet being flushed on to a Pakistani forum???? They should keep the crap themselves. They are more than welcome to it. No trolls. This is our policy. Ban Him I say.
Araz


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## BATMAN

mean_bird said:


> It could be referring to secure and uninterrupted radio communication.



I just read a post from Munir, poted in other thread.
He was telling about DRFM.. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/341223-post416.html

After reading above post I tend to believe it is DRFM!

Just a picture, J10-B:
View attachment 2476


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## a1b2c145




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## Hasnain2009

This guy has posted this link!!
lol


d:/My Documents/My Pictures/15423280_513371.jpg


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## SSGPA1

Not sure if you folks have seen this tiny video of J-10.

Chinese J-10 fighter jet in televised drama.

Chinese J-10 fighter jet in televised drama - Times Online


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## wangrong



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## pakpower

> http://p13.freep.cn/p.aspx?u=v20_p13_p_0904100159338558_0.jpg



Is this J-10B Jet Picture which modifications.


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## was



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## HAIDER

Enlarge it...











Test of newer version of J10

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## echo 1

But this is the older one. Can you see if you can get a picture if the B thanks


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## HAIDER

Look at the nose of newer version...


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## SEAL

okey now it is confirmed that we'll get more improved version J-10's(fc-20b) wid TVC, its a new tech i think our pilots needs special training n TVC jets so they can fully utilize jets features and develop their own fighting tactics.

Any chance of 2,3 trainee J-10's before 2011???


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## aboutimeee

fox said:


> okey now it is confirmed that we'll get more improved version J-10s wid TVC, its a new tech i think our pilots needs special training n TVC jets so they can fully utilize jets features and develop their own fighting tactics.
> 
> Any chance of 2,3 trainee J-10's before 2011???




TVC? i still not sure about that j10 has 1 tail and i dont know if it has been mentioned before but it looks like there isnt enough space for the nozel to move.


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## angels50

The radar type equipping the J-10 is not yet known; possible candidates include the Russian RP-35, the Israeli EL/M-2035, the Italian Grifo 2000 and the domestic JL-10A. A comprehensive Electronic countermeasures (ECM) package is likely to be present, including active jammers.

All the JL-10A fire control radar has been incorporated into the JH-7A (JH-7, the evaluation batch, uses Type 232H FCR). Some evidence suggests that a derivative of the Type 1421 on later J-8 models has been selected. This could be the KLJ-3 FCR.


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## angels50

the 1st batch of J-10s which PAF will rec is unlikely to b TVC equipped......later dliveries will be fully equipped

MOD EDIT In future write clearly and don't use TXT speech


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## Kharian_Beast

angels50 said:


> the 1st batch of J-10s which PAF will rec is unlikely to b TVC equipped......later dliveries will be fully equipped



source ? ?


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## NEHA

Super.......


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## spurdozer

angels50 said:


> the 1st batch of J-10s which PAF will rec is unlikely to b TVC equipped......later dliveries will be fully equipped



Are you sure? What is the source of the information?


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## echo 1

thanks guys


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## Keysersoze

Guys (especially mzubair) you are posting old pictures and in some cases old CGI pictures. They have been posted before and are not real in some cases.


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## TOPGUN

Old or new the pic's are great thx guys!


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## Myth_buster_1




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## spurdozer

It looks more likely we might end up not having an AESA on J-10?


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## yh1

IMHO FC20 does not need an AESA radar considering the threat PAF is facing. On the other hand China's AESA production cost right now is more expensive than those of Western countries. Yet its performance might not be as good. PAF might want to have the latest Chinese avionics and higher thrust WS-10A engine (132kN and 138kN variants) on the plane.


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## Quwa

According to PakDef the PAF is considering the Swedish-Italian M-AESA.

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## Arsalan

sorry i have been out of contact fro the last few week.

can onyone please update me about the current status of pakistan accquiring J10zz when will we be getting them. 

i wish to see them here as soon as it gets!!

i will appreciate your information regarding my question
thankyou!


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## mean_bird

arsalanaslam123 said:


> sorry i have been out of contact fro the last few week.
> 
> can onyone please update me about the current status of pakistan accquiring J10zz when will we be getting them.
> 
> i wish to see them here as soon as it gets!!
> 
> i will appreciate your information regarding my question
> thankyou!



The FC-20 (improved J-10) will be acquired around 2014-15. It seems like the earlier J-10 purchase, as reported earlier by some people, is not happening. SO currently, it is 2014-15 for FC-20 as was mentioned on the day of signing of the first 42 JF-17 planes by the ACM.

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## Kharian_Beast

PAF should look into European avionics and radar, we can commend the Chinese on what looks like to be a first class airframe in J-10B but nonetheless are having problems with the new engine development. I can only imagine the hurdles they face in sticking a small streamlined AESA radar into the nose of the J-10 along with a state of the art man to machine interface in the cockpit as well. France, Italy, UK are all good places to shop for such things (I would prefer French or UK radar and avionics over any others).

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## mean_bird

Kharian_Beast said:


> PAF should look into European avionics and radar, we can commend the Chinese on what looks like to be a first class airframe in J-10B but nonetheless are having problems with the new engine development. I can only imagine the hurdles they face in sticking a small streamlined AESA radar into the nose of the J-10 along with a state of the art man to machine interface in the cockpit as well. France, Italy, UK are all good places to shop for such things (I would prefer French or UK radar and avionics over any others).



Somewhere, somehow I have the feeling that the date 2014-15 indicates that PAF will not go for western avionics and certainly not a western engine for the FC-20.

If you recall the interview ex-ACM gave at IDEAS 2008 about FC-20, he said: " *we have told them exactly what kind of avionics we need, we have told them exactly what kind of radar and missiles we need,...*", which indicates that the complete package will be Chinese and no western equipment would be used. 







I think it should be clear from the above video that FC-20 will have Chinese systems and not western. He specifically said, "technical negotiations are almost over...". 

Frankly, unlike the JF-17, it would be extremely difficult to convince either China or EU country to open up their product to the other. Its just 2009, and look how quickly they are moving ahead in technology...and consider we are talking 4-5 years from now, and then imagine where they would be at that time.

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## Arsalan

hmm, it is better to stick with the chines option. we can wait till 2014 but the US or european are never going to give it to us, and if they do, it would be way too expensive!

but 2014 seem to be far far away, what are our option for this period of time,

the JF17 are still a new palne, it will need upgrades and funds for upgrades are to be generated from export, thus this seems to be a long road to success!! the F!^ upgrades are no where in picture, nor are we listening any thing about the Block 52, about which some members were so sure that we gonna get them!! A bit too wishfull i guess!!

so back to the point, what actually are oue options to stay in air till 2014 or even a bit later!!


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## Super Falcon

for me J 10B is now a succes and it is in production right now as we speek i hope sonn we will sign the contract and JH 7 is cool to for bomber role


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## araz

I think the problem is from both sides. PLAAF will not allow another airforce/Aircraft manufacturer to look into their pride and joy and the Europeans would shy away from doing it. As to Avionics PAF might try to integrate them at Kamra, but that wont happen without chinese approval. But with the chinese avionics industry coming along leaps and bounds, who knows what happens in 2015. Lets see what happens.
Araz


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## Arsalan

hmm, so it means another 5 years without any competent plane fro PAF, what are our options to survive for this period of time, we cannot sit back and relax thinking about our old F16z or the new born JF17. specially in the lights of Su27, Su30, Mig,s and the US F18z or F16 (the latest block 79 or F 16IN)


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## mean_bird

arsalanaslam123 said:


> hmm, so it means another 5 years without any competent plane fro PAF, what are our options to survive for this period of time, we cannot sit back and relax thinking about our old F16z or the new born JF17. specially in the lights of Su27, Su30, Mig,s and the US F18z or F16 (the latest block 79 or F 16IN)



PAF will get the new blk 52 and MLUs (hopefully) by 2010-11...so its not waiting another 5 yrs. 

MMRCA wont enter service before 2013-15 by which time FC-20 would be around. Tejas (if they are any worth) wont be entering service anytime soon either. Their Mirages haven't got the updates as well, so currently on the Su-30 are the threat. 

But until then (2010-11), the current status will remain. Not much of an option there considering even teh JF-17 where bought on loans. Even if the UAE mirages were available, they would be beyond 2011-12 so that's not an option either. 

Until Uncle Sam is here fighting his WOT, there are little chances of war. In extreme cases, we have other weapons to fall back upon.


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## wabs

hello guyz , i saw this pic on web , i think its new . i dont know about any one else has posted it or not

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## Rafael

I dont know if its real or photoshopped, but one thing i like about it is its colour scheme...

Maybe we can have a similar sort of colour scheme in PAF.


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## Arsalan

> *Originally Posted by Mean Bird*
> PAF will get the new blk 52 and MLUs (hopefully) by 2010-11...so its not waiting another 5 yrs.



dear why dont simply get this off our head,, we wont ever be getting the block 52, i dont think ever!!
sir we have always been fooled by the ststements made by the US and sadly our rulers also support them in fooling us as it is necessary for there rule and this is all they are intrested in! to hell with the nation from there side!

Pakistan will have to STOP relaying on the US! they wont ever be sincere with us!

what do you think!


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## ironman

Bad News...

Chinese AVIC Top Head admits the Poor Quality of Jet Engine|China-Defense-Mashup

Apr.2 (China Defense Mashup Reporting by Johnathan Weng)  Mr. Lin Zuoming (&#26519;&#24038;&#40483, the top head of ACIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China), has to admit that Chinas Taihang WS-10 Turbofan Engine is still unsatisfactory in its quality.

In one of his opening letter, he says that the military aircraft engine production has been the chronic illness in Chinese aviation industry and he urges that the solving of Taihang WS-10 Turbofan engine is the key step to reinforce the Quality Control Procedure in AVIC.

Now PLA Air Force has install some WS-10 engine on its J-11B dual-engine heavy fighters for evaluation. But the result is not positive. Some resources report that the quality of WS-10 engine is terrible and PLA Air Force has begun to lose patiency of purchasing more WS-10 engine.

In early March 2009, One Chinese PLA Air Force Pilot sucessfully made a forced landing of one J-10 fighter due to the air shut-down of AL-31F engine. As one kind of single engine fighter, J-10 is very dangerous when power system in trouble.

As a result, PLA Air Force has been knowing the stability of Russian engines and just imported AL-31F engines before the finish of WS-10 development. But the fact shows that the WS-10 engine just looks advanced but has no real advantages to AL-31F.

The forced landing accident warns PLA Air Force that the aviation engines has been the killing shortages of its J-10 and J-11 fleets. No combat aircraft after all can fight without reliable engines.


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## mean_bird

^^ That's old news and thats the reason the J10 hasn't been fitted with WS-10 (or for that matter JF-17 with WS-13).


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## ironman

mean_bird said:


> ^^ That's old news and thats the reason the J10 hasn't been fitted with WS-10 (or for that matter JF-17 with WS-13).



But its posted on 2nd April 2009..


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## TOPGUN

wabs said:


> hello guyz , i saw this pic on web , i think its new . i dont know about any one else has posted it or not



If this isn't photoshopped looks nice in that schme !


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## Arsalan

i dont think it will be very trouble causing for Pakistan, we would prefer to go for some reliable engine anyway!


but for the chines friends, i know they will sort this problem out very soon, they are really good rather amazing at these things!

what are our options for avionics, and engine of the FC20 we want to have?


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## mean_bird

4-5 years is enough time to sort out engine problem, mature avionics, etc especially when the WS-10 is already fitted on the twin-engined J-11. 

If Grifo supplied radar/avionics for fitting in F-7, then doing the same in JF-17 or FC-20 shouldn't be a problem. We know already from IDEAS2008, that an AESA is on offer.

ex-ACM also mentioned some "new" weapons being developed by the Chinese for themselves and for us. Then, he mentioned about "We will see the weapons trial on the FC-20" during IDEAS-2008.

All in all, it looks good if engine works out, which it should by this time-frame.


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## Zob

what i don't understand is why not buy the J10 now...and then go for a MLU program when the J10B comes out...i think even now a J10 will give us a good boost in fire power.....i mean we bought the F-16 block 15 not wait around for 20 years(even though we were made to) and buy the BLOCK 60s.....buy what you get now learn from it and help in development....

unfortunately i kind of understand what sir MASTAN KHAN meant when he said PAF always under performs and is short sighted and then complain in the future....

PAF after all helped in development of the F7s....so i don't know why we can't develop the J10s as our baby


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## mean_bird

Zob said:


> what i don't understand is why not buy the J10 now...and then go for a MLU program when the J10B comes out...i think even now a J10 will give us a good boost in fire power.....i mean we bought the F-16 block 15 not wait around for 20 years(even though we were made to) and buy the BLOCK 60s.....buy what you get now learn from it and help in development....
> 
> unfortunately i kind of understand what sir MASTAN KHAN meant when he said PAF always under performs and is short sighted and then complain in the future....
> 
> PAF after all helped in development of the F7s....so i don't know why we can't develop the J10s as our baby



J-10, now, flies with a Russian engine. I am afraid you, I, or Mastan Khan cannot do anything about it unless we can develop our own engine. Fitting it with the WS-10, when they aren't ready would be akin to buying brand new flying coffins.

Secondly, there is not much the J-10 can offer as of now in terms of technology that the JF-17 won't have except better payload. The whole reason of buying J-10 is for the "punch power" or being "high-tech" which it would fail to deliver. 

Thirdly, JF-17 are being bought on credit, Erieye is being bought on credit, loads of money has gone to F-16 both new and MLU, and the loads of accompanying ammunition. Its time we realized that a loan is not free money and has to be paid back too. 

Last but not least, you cannot go begging for money from one hand, while purchasing defense equipment from the other. Any such move now will block the aid that is flowing, so the J-10 will ultimately end up costing its price plus the $5-7billion that is coming as aid.

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## ahussains

so we need at least 5 years to get all these things


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

It is true that the engine issue of the J 10B has to be resolved first and foremost, before pakistan acquires them---that is why we are looking at the start up delivery around 2014-15.

This situation is unlike that of F 7's. We increased the life span / between servicing of that engine.

Mean-bird is right in his assessment---we are going for the FC 20 is to increase the "Punch Power"---something as good as the BLK 52 and competing with the likes of rafael in the future with upgrades.

My personal belief and assessment is that Musharraf did us a favour by forcing paf to buy 2 chinese awacs---it totally changed the direction PAF was headed for---from unpredictable to predictable---from sanction prone to free at last---at least half of them.

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## Munir

If plan goes as planned then China will have it readu between 2012-2014.


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## Arsalan

quite true what mean bird said!!

at the present J10 is not offering much that we cannot get from the JF17, both are BVR, and BVR was the technology we wanted to induct in PAF as soon as possible, now as we have it in form of JF17 the plus points of J10 like extra payload, more speed are not enough to but such an expensive new plane!

now there is a question i have, when in 2014 we will be having the FC20 our JF17 would alos have been modified as proposed, westren avionics, engine and may be also some fire power from the west. so if the JF17 is upgraded as proposed, would it be suitable or helpful to get FC 20 in 2014 unless it turns out to be an Advance 4.5 generation with some stealty and deadly avionics and super weapons??

so do you think that FC20 will get so good to be a paksitani choice even with upgraded JF17 
or
do you think that pakistan will ultimately lose intrest in the improvement of JF17, as there was a rumor of this being happening when the J10 was dispalyed first time!!

i will look forword for responce from you people!

regards


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Our current systems on the jf 17 would take us into the next 10 years of service. You just simply cannot upgrade systems after 4 to 5 years time. Now different batches may have upgraded systems to the prior batch ie the current batch of 42 aircraft will be of similiar or of same equipment.

The next batch would be obviously different in electronic equipment package.

JF 17---Fc 20---are different types of aircraft--one complements the other---but then otoh paf may go a different route depending upon the funds.


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## araz

arsalanaslam123 said:


> quite true what mean bird said!!
> 
> at the present J10 is not offering much that we cannot get from the JF17, both are BVR, and BVR was the technology we wanted to induct in PAF as soon as possible, now as we have it in form of JF17 the plus points of J10 like extra payload, more speed are not enough to but such an expensive new plane!
> 
> now there is a question i have, when in 2014 we will be having the FC20 our JF17 would alos have been modified as proposed, westren avionics, engine and may be also some fire power from the west. so if the JF17 is upgraded as proposed, would it be suitable or helpful to get FC 20 in 2014 unless it turns out to be an Advance 4.5 generation with some stealty and deadly avionics and super weapons??
> 
> so do you think that FC20 will get so good to be a paksitani choice even with upgraded JF17
> or
> do you think that pakistan will ultimately lose intrest in the improvement of JF17, as there was a rumor of this being happening when the J10 was dispalyed first time!!
> 
> i will look forword for responce from you people!
> 
> regards



Bhai.
We have invested money in the JF17 project and are harping about the huge market that the thunder will have . Yet you expect s to lose interest in JF17 when FC20 arrives. The answer is a hefty NO!! You just cannot afford to lose interest in JF17. I have mentioned this before that one of my friend is an Ex RAF pilot. He says inspite of having the typhoon, the only fighter that they are afraid of to cause them a problem is the Gripen.Goes to show the advantage of having a small well linked up plane in a net centric environment. I think PAF will continue to develop the Thunder and make it high 4th Generation fighter, if funds allow it. If funds do not allow it ____ then we wont have funds for FC20 either.
WaSalam
Araz


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## fatman17

i think the west and the americans are more worried about the J-10 than the JF-17. the chinese are more keen to invest in future upgrades of the J-10 as more a/c are inducted in the PLAAF!


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## mean_bird

I agree with araz, JF-17 is our baby, its our backbone...you just cannot lose interest in a plane you intend to acquire 250 of. If there were such a thing, we wouldn't be saying we might need to go for 250 even when the initial understanding was for 150. 

We thought of the concept of the JF-17, we developed it. If we wanted anything bigger, we could have designed a bigger plane similar to the F-16 or J-10 in terms of weight. But we knew our restrictions...financial restrictions ...and that is why we went for a light weight, low cost plane. Who wouldn't like his inventory to be full of nice big planes, but you have to do what your pocket dictates.

Having said that JF-17 doesn't complete our requirement because we also need some trucks for the bombs and Air superiority. But such 'trucks' are very expensive and we cannot afford to buy 250 of them, hence a division between the medium weight and the light weight aircrafts. Just see 36 F-16s are costing around $3 billion while you can probably get 150 JF-17 for that amount. 

So instead of buying 72 F-16 for $6 billion, you can get 36 F-16 and 150 JF-17 and have squadrons that are a mixture of both..similar to F-15 and F-16 mixtures. Also you can use those medium/heavy fighters for deep strike and carrying heavy loads.

The only point where we can "lose interest" is if we discover a dozen or more oil wells.


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## Arsalan

araz said:


> Bhai.
> We have invested money in the JF17 project and are harping about the huge market that the thunder will have . Yet you expect s to lose interest in JF17 when FC20 arrives. The answer is a hefty NO!! You just cannot afford to lose interest in JF17. I have mentioned this before that one of my friend is an Ex RAF pilot. He says inspite of having the typhoon, the only fighter that they are afraid of to cause them a problem is the Gripen.Goes to show the advantage of having a small well linked up plane in a net centric environment. I think PAF will continue to develop the Thunder and make it high 4th Generation fighter, if funds allow it. If funds do not allow it ____ then we wont have funds for FC20 either.
> WaSalam
> Araz



well thats good and that how it should be!
actually about an year or so back, there was such a rumor!
infact one of my friends, an aeronautical engg. with PAF also pointed out at this issue but it seems that all that was some misconception!



> I think PAF will continue to develop the Thunder and make it high 4th Generation fighter, if funds allow it. If funds do not allow it ____ then we wont have funds for FC20 either.


for this part as it hadbeen disscussed in another thread on this site, the secret lies in export of the plane!
if we somehow manag to start the export of the plane with current specs even a small quantity, it may do wonders!
first of all it will be a big moral boost for the country as very few nation have developed and are in position to export fighter jets, being one of them is certainly a big pride!
secondly we may well use the funds generated from these exports to further upgrade and improve the plane to attarct more customers, if this process starts it will be great! it is just the same case as with F16, lockheed martine have always been ablt to export there current block F16 in enough amount to generate funds to develop a far improved and upgraded next block!

i hope this starts with the JF17 also!

the customers may not be a big issue, azerbijan is on the list selling them 25 to 30 planes can figure out money to develop the future planes to be sold to countries with higher specs requirment and the process may continue!
the only problem that comes to my mind is that the revenue generated, instead of being used in developing an upgraded second block, may well be transfered to swiss accounts 

that is the set back of our nation! the politicians


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## mean_bird

From Pshamim at pakdef

_Something new to ponder about. It is being said that China may develop the 3rd generation of J-10 with the ability to super cruise at 1.5 mach.

I wonder if it will have any effect on the FC-20 or will it be a totally new aircraft. Its configuration will be close to British Typhoon. Can the J-10 have this ability on a single power plant ot it will have two engines._

**************
I guess we will ultimately end up getting the J-11 everybody here have supported in the form of J-10 evolution and without the hassle.


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## Arsalan

mean_bird said:


> From Pshamim at pakdef
> 
> _Something new to ponder about. It is being said that China may develop the 3rd generation of J-10 with the ability to super cruise at 1.5 mach.
> 
> I wonder if it will have any effect on the FC-20 or will it be a totally new aircraft. Its configuration will be close to British Typhoon. Can the J-10 have this ability on a single power plant ot it will have two engines._
> 
> **************
> I guess we will ultimately end up getting the J-11 everybody here have supported in the form of J-10 evolution and without the hassle.



well not me!!  

actually i am not a fan of PAF getting the J11, the reason are quite obvious!

1: big budget requirment, (maintaniance nightmare so lesser flying hours)
2: cannot drop J10 to get J11, so it will be an extra expense and may not be an appropiate option considering the Su30 and MRCA are operational with our sweet neighbours and J11 will not stand in there way (obviously this is the reason we want to add a squadron or two of them)
3: china may not be intrested in selling a copy of russian plane rather then there very own J10, they might push us to get the FC20
4: last but not the least, what makes you think russains will ALLOW this deal?

regards!


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## PAFAce

fatman17 said:


> i think the west and the americans are more worried about the J-10 than the JF-17. the chinese are more keen to invest in future upgrades of the J-10 as more a/c are inducted in the PLAAF!



Good observation. But I wonder, will the West _really_ be worried by _either_ of the aircraft cutting into its market share? I don't see any of the major customers leaving the Americans/Europeans for Chinese/Pakistani planes. UAE? Saudi Arabia? Greece? Turkey? I don't think so. At the most, the J-11B may have the ability to eat into the Su-27 market share, but that doesn't look too likely.



mean_bird said:


> From Pshamim at pakdef
> 
> _Something new to ponder about. It is being said that China may develop the 3rd generation of J-10 with the ability to super cruise at 1.5 mach.
> 
> I wonder if it will have any effect on the FC-20 or will it be a totally new aircraft. Its configuration will be close to British Typhoon. Can the J-10 have this ability on a single power plant ot it will have two engines._
> 
> **************
> I guess we will ultimately end up getting the J-11 everybody here have supported in the form of J-10 evolution and without the hassle.



Very interesting stuff. Regardless of whether the tech will be included in the FC-20 or not, Pakistan will always have the option to buy the "third generation of the J-10" with supercruise, if and when it becomes a reality. Therefore, it is an exciting prospect. 

Also, I've never been a supporter of the J-11B deal personally, mainly due to cost issues.


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## Manticore

Grande Strategy: The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging

double engined j10-c equavalent to eurofighter with super cruise whick paf might opt..instead of j11b.. i posted this in some other thread aswell

''The J-10B, represents a 4.5 generation plane but it remains to be seen what engine is used with this plane. Meanwhile, according to informed commentators, a J-10C with twin engines around the size of RD-33s and incorporating similar features to the J-10B has arrived. This is supposedly a direct competitor to the Eurofighter and has the same layout - twin engined canard delta with a single tail. The PLAAF will have to decide whether to go with the J-10B or the J-10C at some point. Pakistan will not go for the J-10C as the twin engines do not comply with their doctrine of single-engined fighters and with the AFFDP-2019. ''


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## mean_bird

PAFAce said:


> Very interesting stuff. Regardless of whether the tech will be included in the FC-20 or not, Pakistan will always have the option to buy the "third generation of the J-10" with supercruise, if and when it becomes a reality. Therefore, it is an exciting prospect.
> 
> Also, I've never been a supporter of the J-11B deal personally, mainly due to cost issues.



PAFAce, the interesting stuff here would be that it is very difficult for us to get the Russian engine. Whatever will happen with the WS-10 is unclear. However, it will suit pakistan that if both JF-17 and FC-20 can have the WS-13 engines or an equivalent western engine. 

Also those who support the J-11 are not completely wrong...but we are unlikely to have them because of Russian license issue. If the J-10 can carry heavier load because of twin engine, have commonality with JF-17, and be able to supercruise it is a win-win situation for pakistan. 

Ofcourse the WS-10 should be ready by 2014-15 also so that shouldnt be a problem. And it also remains to be seen if Chengdu can make this plane within the timeframe given. Remember we also heard "rumors" about a "new plane" around 2012.


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## Gucci Juice

j-10c isn't possible.

if u add 2 engines, u need more space for more fuel, u need to add more weight to the front of the airplane to keep it balanced, you need to do structural changes, you need to strengthen the air frame, you need to add another air ingester, and a whole lot of other things.

i think its better to just build a new plane.


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## mean_bird

Gucci Juice said:


> j-10c isn't possible.
> 
> if u add 2 engines, u need more space for more fuel, u need to add more weight to the front of the airplane to keep it balanced, you need to do structural changes, you need to strengthen the air frame, you need to add another air ingester, and a whole lot of other things.
> 
> i think its better to just build a new plane.



People suggesting the J-10C are indeed proposing radical changes that will require significant re-work and testing/evaluation. It will, however, still have a heritage of the J-10 and hence the time frame we are talking about is shorter than building a completely new plane. 

The question to wonder about is if indeed such a plane is coming and if yes, then for how long it has been already in development.


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## yh1

Twin-engine J-10 project has been put aside since 2008 because the priority at the CAC 611 Institute is given to the development of Jxx, the 4th G fighter.


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## notorious_eagle

Well all arguments aside, one thing is forsure and that is that this plane is going to be one hell of a beastttt.

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## Arsalan

well a J10C, if there is anything will be only good for us if it gives major upper hand over the FC20, inducting a squadron or two of such a heavy plane wil help us but it will never fit in the role of main or frontline aircraft because of huge buying and flying cost and provision of lesser flying hours! nevertheless it will be something better that the Su27, may well be on par with the Su30, this is the only reason chines would develop it as they are getting Su30 already!!

regards

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## Manticore

well if not j10-c.. then some funky j13.... i noted that on su34 the pilots sit side by side and enter the jet through an underneath 'trap door'! wow! and it has some serious bomb load carrying ability.. [ who knows if the chinese have set there eyes on this beauty]


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## bilal1219

This is some crazy *** fighter. This is what you call a real air dominace and a2g capability. And aside from this its a russian plane like any other SuKHOI. Which means that even if china ends up making it, they would not be selling/exporting it to pakistan. Thats just my assumption.


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## Luftwaffe

let first SU-33 deal goes thru.....


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## Arsalan

all these planes are russian so even if china gets them with ToT we wont be able to get our hands on to them!

let us hope that china develops in collaboration with Pakistan the system that fullfill our requirment!


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## sancho

bilal1219 said:


> This is some crazy *** fighter. This is what you call a real air dominace and a2g capability. And aside from this its a russian plane like any other SuKHOI. Which means that even if china ends up making it, they would not be selling/exporting it to pakistan. Thats just my assumption.


It's not a air superiority fighter, it's a fighter bomber with some a2a capabilities and that might be the problem for PLAAF. Even it is better with PESA radar, lower RCS, better armor... than Chinas Su 30 Mkk it would compete it in the same role. I doubt that they really show interest, Su 35 would be a much better choice because it's the better a2a fighter and also comes with such good features.


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## Arsalan

well fellows do you people think that pakistan needs a dedicated groung attack platform,

do keep in mind our finance limits and the current air to air capability!??

i will wait for your suggestions!

regards!


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## wangrong

compare


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## Arsalan

wangrong said:


> compare




well 

the top one got missiles and the bottom one have drop tanks   

can you refer what are you pointing at! i mean are you saying something about the refuleing probe or i do even think that te air intakes are probably slight changed!
am i right?


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## Munir

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well
> 
> the top one got missiles and the bottom one have drop tanks
> 
> can you refer what are you pointing at! i mean are you saying something about the refuleing probe or i do even think that te air intakes are probably slight changed!
> am i right?




It is a fake. Very difficult to find but if you look at the canards of the J10b then the hidden canard is far behind the original location (just visible in front of the main wing). The used the second pic to produce it. Probably they removed the PL9 from the real pic cause it is odd to see three fuel tanks without the totally standars PL9...


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## Arsalan

ok as you say sir !!

actually i am a bit bad at this!

anyway waht about the refueling probe and the change in air intake!


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## ironman

China readies J-10A fighter for export - upiasia.com

By Andrei Chang and John Wu 
Column: Military Might........................................Published: May 08, 2009

Hong Kong, China &#8212; China is aiming at a substantial share of the international market for third-generation fighter aircraft, with a particular eye on oil-rich third-world countries as part of its arms-for-oil strategy. This was evidenced by the high-profile display of its J-10A fighter at the 2008 Zhuhai Air Show last November.

Chinese experts were observed giving exhaustive information on the J-10A to military delegations from Angola, Nigeria and Venezuela at the air show. Venezuela seemed most interested in the aircraft.

The first foreign buyer of the J-10A will be Pakistan, a source from the Chinese aviation industry said. In March, Pakistan&#8217;s Air Chief Marshall Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed confirmed that a deal with China had been reached, and the aircraft would be delivered in 2014 and 2015. The version for Pakistan will be called the FC-20.

However, there is an issue with the engine on this aircraft. The J-10A is currently equipped with Russian-made AL-31F aviation engines. It is unclear whether Russia will permit China to install these engines on its aircraft and then export them to Pakistan. Such a move would have not only economic but also political repercussions, considering that Pakistan&#8217;s rival, India, is a major purchaser of Russian arms.

For this reason, the export version of the J-10A fighter is still under design. Both the engine and the weapon systems on board will be different from the domestic version, according to the source from the Chinese aviation industry.

India has been using the Russian AL-31FP engine extensively in its fighter aircraft. If China exports large numbers of J-10P/FC-20 fighters outfitted with Russian engines to Pakistan, India will be much more concerned over this deal than with China&#8217;s earlier export of JF-17 2.5-generation fighters to Pakistan. As a third-generation combat aircraft, the J-10A will pose a real threat to the Indian Air Force.

With this concern, India sent a strong delegation to the Zhuhai Air Show to expand its contacts with the Chinese, led by its air chief of staff. The Indian Air Force&#8217;s aerobatics demonstration team also put on a performance at this event.

At the Singapore Air Show earlier last year, Indian Air Chief Marshall Fali Homi Major had already carefully inspected the simulation cockpit of the JF-17, which is being jointly developed by China and Pakistan. His trip to Zhuhai was to examine the J-10A/ FC-20 fighter.

In contrast to India&#8217;s increased interest in engaging with China, Russia sent a much smaller delegation than usual to Zhuhai. For the first time, Russia did not exhibit any combat aircraft or radar systems at the air show. Some representatives of Russian enterprises even cancelled their planned trips to China at the last minute.

One member of the Russian military delegation described China-Russian arms trade as being in a long and drawn-out &#8220;winter.&#8221; A representative of Rosoboronexport, the agency that handles exports of Russian defense equipment, declined to comment on China&#8217;s possible export of J-10A fighters equipped with Russian AL-31F engines.

China did have its own indigenous engine on display at the show, the Taihang turbofan engine, with a thrust power of 13,200 kilograms &#8211; although some experts say it is only 12,800 kilograms. The Taihang&#8217;s exterior design and modular structure, as well as the processing and polishing technologies of the core machine and engine blades, seem to be an improvement over China&#8217;s previous aviation engines, but it is still far behind similar systems from Russia and Western countries.

Representatives of China&#8217;s Liming Motor Corporation refused to answer questions about the engine&#8217;s performance features. It is unclear why China decided to introduce this engine to the international market when it has not elected to use it on its own J-10 fighters.

A Chinese military source disclosed that China has been promoting the J-10A to Egypt, but it appears that no substantial negotiations have yet taken place. An authoritative source from the Russian military industry has said that Russia will not allow China to use its engines in exported planes if it perceives such sales as having a negative impact on Russia&#8217;s own export market. Egypt was once a major client of Russian arms, though it now buys little other than spare parts.

Pakistan, on the other hand, is not a traditional client of Russian aircraft. Therefore Russia allowed its engines to be used on the JF-17 fighters China is developing with Pakistan. The same arrangement may therefore hold for the J-10A.

The basic price for the J-10A is about US$29.3 million, according to the Chinese source. Considering that China aims to sell this fighter primarily to oil-producing countries &#8211; and is prepared to trade it for oil and other natural resources &#8211; it could be an attractive option for such countries.

A general assessment of the export version of the J-10A fighter can conclude that its engine has less thrust than the F-16 Block 52, while its radar system is more or less on a par with the Zhuk-ME multifunction radar on the Russian MiG-28 SMT. This is because Russia&#8217;s Phazotron Design Bureau exported to China three sets of its Zemchung multirole radar systems after 2001, allowing China to come up with its own version of the Zhuk-ME radar. This radar has a detection range of 120 kilometers for 5m2 aerial targets and can attack four targets in the air simultaneously.

In terms of the diversity and performance of its weapon systems, especially long-range attack weapons, the J-10A lags far behind the F-16 Block 52. The-air-to-air missiles loaded on the J-10A fighter at the Zhuhai exhibition were SD-10A AAMs with compound hardpoints. The SD-10A is a medium-range active radar-guided air-to-air missile upgraded from the SD-10, with its maximum range extended to 70 kilometers. Its length is 3.9 meters, diameter 203 millimeters, weight 198 kilograms, and maximum speed Mach 5.

The PL-12 air-to-air missiles currently in service in the PLA Air Force have undergone similar upgrading. Short-range missiles include the new-generation PL-5EII and PL-9C. The PL-5EII is equipped with a multichannel infrared seeker, the latest laser proximity fuse, and a rocket motor with a non-smoke propellant.

The air-to-ground weapons on the J-10A mainly include the LT-2 laser-guided bomb and the FT series of global positioning system-guided bombs. In recent years China has been imitating U.S. aviation combat weapons, a trend that is reflected in the weapon platforms on the J-10A, including its imitation U.S. joint direct attack munition serial bombs.

At the most recent Zhuhai show, China put on open display its FT-5 GPS-guided bomb. The FT-1 and FT-3 500/250-kilogram-class GPS-guided bombs were on display at the previous show in 2006. China also showed off its 500-kilogram-class FT-2 with gliding fins added. The FT-2 has an effective range of 15-90 kilometers, a circular error probability of 20 meters and an air-dropping altitude of 3,000 to 12,000 meters.

The FT-5 small-diameter bomb copies the latest design of the U.S. military. A designer of the system said that the FT-5&#8217;s warhead has a weight of 35 kilograms and a circular error probability of 15 meters. It was developed mainly for unmanned aerial vehicles. The effective range of the FT-5 is 2-5 kilometers when launched from a UAV and 3-35 kilometers when launched from a J-10A.

China has also developed the LT-3 GPS+ terminal laser-guided air-to-ground missile for the J-10A, which is very similar in structure to the U.S. Army&#8217;s JDAM+ laser-guided bomb.

These imitations provide evidence that the Chinese military has been tracking U.S. technology, viewing the United States as both a presumed enemy and a competitor in the arms export market. Of course China&#8217;s imitations are not limited to U.S. military equipment, but it is certainly learning from U.S. technology as well as military combat doctrines.

China is now paying close attention to the development of anti-GPS-jamming multiple-guidance weapons. Its Sekong Company has developed a 570-kilogram-class guided bomb based on the Russian Krasnopole laser-guided projectile&#8217;s seeker technology. China plans to promote this guided bomb along with the J-10A. A designer says that this bomb has a circular error probability of 3.1 meters and an air-release altitude of 500-10,000 meters.

It is not clear whether the LT-3 has ever been test-fired, as China did not show video footage of this guided bomb under test.

As for anti-ship weapons, Chinese promoters of the J-10A claim that the fighter can carry 75-kilometer-range new-generation C-705 anti-ship missiles or C-802A anti-ship missiles with a range close to 250 kilometers. The C-705 was also on exhibit for the first time. The C-705 is a modified version of the C-704, with a turbojet engine and two flight fins. The weight of its warhead is 110 kilograms and it has a minimum flight altitude of 12 meters.

The J-10A fighter has 11 hardpoints, two of which are of compound structure, making the total number of hardpoints 13.

The PLA Navy seems to be assessing the possibility of acquiring J-10As for its combat ships. A Chinese source said that the navy liked its price and its aerial refuelling capability. This source also disclosed that the J-10A&#8217;s combat radius is 800 kilometers. In this regard, the technological standard of the materials used on the J-10A can be judged far inferior to those of the same-generation fighters of the United States and Europe.

The J-10A is already fitted with an arresting hook imported from Russia for shipboard landing drills. However, the same source said no decision had as yet been made as to whether the PLA Navy will employ the J-10A as a ship-borne combat aircraft.

--

(Andrei Chang is editor-in-chief of Kanwa Defense Review Monthly, registered in Toronto, Canada. John Wu is a reporter for the same magazine.)


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## Arsalan

the FC 20 pakistan is going to have will be different from the J10A publically known at the time!

actulal configration of the FC20 is still not know but it is rumored that it will be including more advanced westren avionics and thus able to support westren weapons which for the time being seem to be available to pakistan from sweden, france and german!

hope it turn out to be even better than the J10! a true 4.5 generation plane, it is very much necessary as we will be having them in fve to six years time when technology will be more advanced and also the region will be crowded with Su30 and MRCA!!

regards


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## a1b2c145

wangrong said:


> compare



_wangrong! nice pictures,J10B looks more smooth than J10A, isn't it?_
*Hi,dear Boys here,Can you tell me the way to upload pictures from my computer' s hard disk?*


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## a1b2c145

arsalanaslam123 said:


> ok as you say sir !!
> 
> actually i am a bit bad at this!
> 
> anyway waht about the refueling probe and the change in air intake!



I Can't any 'big' changes see in this photo.


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## mean_bird

^^

Here's how to upload a picture

1. click on the "Go Advanced" button located below where you type your response
2. Scroll down to "Additional options" 
3. Click the "Manage attachments" and use it to upload the pictures. 

Alternatively, upload the pictures to a web hosting site like flickr or photobucket and use the link from there.

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## aimarraul

ironman said:


> But its posted on 2nd April 2009..



don't worry about our engine ,check out this report

US$29b to let China's jumbo fly
Published: May 10, 2009 
China will invest 200 billion yuan (US$29 billion) in developing its domestic jumbo jet, according to Zhang Qingwei, chairman of Commercial Aircraft Corp of China.

"We will invest 60 billion yuan in the jumbo jet project in the next three to five years, and an overall investment of 200 billion yuan is required to finally put the jet on the market," he said.

The company, which is 31-percent controlled by the central government and 26-percent owned by the Shanghai government, will spend 30 billion yuan in research and development of the jet, including engines and airborne systems.

"The central government will fund less than a third of the R&D investment and the rest will come from public capital," Zhang said in an interview with China Central Television.

The establishment of R&D, customer service and assembly centers will cost another 30 billion yuan, he said.

The 150-seat jumbo jet, codenamed C919, is part of the country's aim to become a world-class plane producer with a lineup of globally competitive products.

All facets of the process - from design to sourcing and production - will be done in China, as the project aims to reduce the country's reliance on overseas firms such as Boeing and Airbus.

An initial design of the jet has been completed and the aircraft is scheduled to make its maiden flight in 2014 and is expected to be delivered to customers by 2016.

However, it may be equipped with foreign-made engines for the maiden flight as the country still needs time to make breakthroughs in some key technologies, including engines and composite materials.

Zhang said the company would need 30,000 employees to deal with design, assembly, customer services, marketing and airworthiness certificates. It has 4,000 employees at present.

A jumbo jet is defined as a plane with more than 150 seats or a payload over 100 tons. Only the United States, Russia, France, Germany, Britain and Spain currently manufacture them.

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## Luftwaffe

aimarraul then PAF using chinese jumbo too lol man i would love to see them in gray color scheme and PIA finally can say goodbye to boeing and airbus..ah dreams for now..
you know what i think j-10 has a bit of Pakistani investment just teeny weeny but there is..


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## a1b2c145

mean_bird said:


> ^^
> 
> Here's how to upload a picture
> 
> 1. click on the "Go Advanced" button located below where you type your response
> 2. Scroll down to "Additional options"
> 3. Click the "Manage attachments" and use it to upload the pictures.
> 
> Alternatively, upload the pictures to a web hosting site like flickr or photobucket and use the link from there.




Very good!!! I know now!!!!!!!!!!



Apparently counterfeit but interesting!!


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## MZUBAIR

luftwaffe said:


> aimarraul then PAF using chinese jumbo too lol man i would love to see them in gray color scheme and PIA finally can say goodbye to boeing and airbus..ah dreams for now..
> *you know what i think j-10 has a bit of Pakistani investment just teeny weeny but there is*..



I dont think so !!!


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## Arsalan

luftwaffe said:


> you know what i think j-10 has a bit of Pakistani investment just teeny weeny but there is..



well its been in the air that pakistan is assisting chines in technical spes of the plane as they have been flying westren and US planes so can better make some changes in the J10 project keeping in ming the american or european stangards!
no news of an financial investment!

regards!


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## fatman17

*China pushes J-10A fighter for export to Pakistan, Egypt*

By ANDREI CHANG and JOHN WUPublished: May 19, 2009

HONG KONG, May 19 (UPI) -- One member of the Russian military delegation to last November's Zhuhai Air Show described the Chinese-Russian arms trade as being in a long and drawn-out winter.

A representative of Rosoboronexport, the agency that handles exports of Russian defense equipment, declined to comment on China's possible export of J-10A fighters equipped with Russian AL-31F engines.

China did have its own indigenous engine on display at the show, the Taihang turbofan engine, with a thrust power of 13,200 kilograms, or 29,101 pounds. However, some experts say it is only 12,800 kilograms -- 28,219 pounds. The Taihang's exterior design and modular structure, as well as the processing and polishing technologies of the core machine and engine blades, seem to be an improvement over China's previous aviation engines, but it is still far behind similar systems from Russia and Western countries. 

Representatives of China's Liming Motor Corp. refused to answer questions about the engine's performance features. It is unclear why China decided to introduce this engine to the international market when it has not elected to use it on its own J-10 fighters. 

A Chinese military source said China has been promoting the J-10A to Egypt, but it appears that no substantial negotiations have yet taken place. An authoritative source from the Russian military industry has said that Russia will not allow China to use its engines in exported planes if it perceives such sales as having a negative impact on Russia's own export market. Egypt was once a major client of Russian arms, though it now buys little other than spare parts.

*Pakistan, on the other hand, is not a traditional client of Russian aircraft. Therefore, Russia allowed its engines to be used on the JF-17 fighters China is developing with Pakistan. The same arrangement may therefore hold for the J-10A.*

The basic price for the J-10A is about $29.3 million, according to the Chinese source. Considering that China aims to sell this fighter primarily to oil-producing countries -- and is prepared to trade it for oil and other natural resources -- it could be an attractive option for such countries.

A general assessment of the export version of the J-10A fighter can conclude that its engine has less thrust than the F-16 Block 52, while its radar system is more or less on par with the Zhuk-ME multifunction radar on the Russian MiG-28 SMT. This is because Russia's Phazotron Design Bureau exported to China three sets of its Zemchug multi-role radar systems after 2001, allowing China to come up with its own version of the Zhuk-ME radar. This radar has a detection range of 120 kilometers, or 75 miles, for 5-square-meter aerial targets and can attack four targets in the air simultaneously. 

In terms of the diversity and performance of its weapon systems, especially long-range attack weapons, the J-10A lags far behind the F-16 Block 52. The air-to-air missiles loaded on the J-10A fighter at the Zhuhai exhibition were SD-10A AAMs with compound hard points. The SD-10A is a medium-range active radar-guided air-to-air missile upgraded from the SD-10, with its maximum range extended to 70 kilometers, or 43 miles. Its length is 3.9 meters, around 13 feet; diameter, 203 millimeters, around 8 inches; weight, 198 kilograms, just under 440 pounds, and maximum speed Mach 5, 3,800 miles per hour at sea level. 

The PL-12 air-to-air missiles currently in service in the People's Liberation Army Air Force have undergone similar upgrading. Short-range missiles include the new-generation PL-5EII and PL-9C. The PL-5EII is equipped with a multichannel infrared seeker, the latest laser proximity fuse and a rocket motor with a non-smoke propellant. 

The air-to-ground weapons on the J-10A mainly include the LT-2 laser-guided bomb and the FT series of Global Positioning System-guided bombs. In recent years, China has been imitating U.S. aviation combat weapons, a trend that is reflected in the weapon platforms on the J-10A, including its imitation U.S. joint direct attack munition serial bombs. 

-- 

(Andrei Chang is editor in chief of Kanwa Defense Review Monthly, registered in Toronto.)


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## Munir

I have been following Kanwa for more then a few years and they do not have positive feelings about anything Chinese.. Saying the J10-A is less then block52 sounds logical. But block52 is almost the latest you can get ( I guess block60 is almost a new breed and damn expensive)... It still will cost you almost the double of a J10-A... About the teeths, J10-A is just getting first generation weapons... I started a few years ago and the Chinese af jumped to block40+ level in most developments. Give them 2 years and block 50+ is a easy jump... 

They have a big mouth in the west about technology but the time the west needs and the costs at the end show that China is passing them within a few years... Where can you buy a decent BVR fighterjet brand new for around 10 million USD? Even a 30 years old F16A without MLU will cost you more headache to buy if you remind the restrictions....

The J10-B looks like PS. If you calculate the air it needs the intakes of the DSI are a bit small... So someone is doing overtime PS pics.


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## Manticore

*China&#8217;s Emerging 5th Generation Air-to-Air Missiles*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/19447-air-air-missiles-command-air.html#post374190

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## wangrong

J10B

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## wangrong

J10B new picS

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## BaburCM

Zabardast! Thanks for sharing these gems! I cannot even begin to imagine how the final product will end up looking like for PAF! Exciting stuff!


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## Rafael

looks like a PS job


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## iclutchcity

i353.photobucket.com/albums/r367/acgcat/2009-052210BSHRSteps_2000x.jpg
i353.photobucket.com/albums/r367/acgcat/2009-052210BSHRI_2000x1425-1.jpg


uhhhhh,, the girl's wing undersurface,,,, according to some insiders from Chinese military forums this creator exactly shows the electronic countermeasure pods at inner wing stations and formation lights we haven't seen on other photos before. who knows.

&#65288;may someone who has enough authority post these two images&#65374; thx


========

now it's ok~~


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## Arsalan

wangrong said:


> J10B new picS




the bottom pic looks like PS, can someone kindly shed light of it!


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## Arsalan

here you go *iclutchcity*

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## hj786

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the bottom pic looks like PS, can someone kindly shed light of it!



Doesn't matter, this one is no PS:






From PLAAF News, Photos and Speculation #12 - Page 19 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums


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## wangrong



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## Arsalan

nice pics, whats going on with the pgradation or modification for the upcomming J10B, no specs are out officially but any news on it??


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## Imran Khan

last 2 are not PS i think so


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## iclutchcity

arsalanaslam123 said:


> here you go *iclutchcity*



thank you so much

i think it need a "http://" before the link


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## iclutchcity

imran khan said:


> last 2 are not PS i think so



yeah, they're posted by a staff from CAC

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## Munir

THe best sofar. Only the cockpit glass seems to be strange but seen that also on certainly not PS pics. High probablity of authentic pic.


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## Gucci Juice

wtf is up with all of these photoshop claims?

they look pretty real to me...


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## a1b2c145

What about this one, this is the most clear pic?


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## iclutchcity

a1b2c145 said:


> What about this one, this is the most clear pic?



they were shot by the same guy


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## mean_bird

Munir said:


> THe best sofar. Only the cockpit glass seems to be strange but seen that also on certainly not PS pics. High probablity of authentic pic.



Cockpit looks strange on the reduced pics...kinda weird...but If you click to view the full size, the cockpit looks just fine.


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## iclutchcity

Munir said:


> THe best sofar. Only the cockpit glass seems to be strange but seen that also on certainly not PS pics. High probablity of authentic pic.



What make you feel strange about the canopy?


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## mean_bird

Some Hi-resolution pictures posted from pakdef

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## Imran Khan

its code 01 mean its first of fc-20.nice improvement keep it up China.

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## Munir

Just judging the action then this should be the high speed taxi tests...


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## mean_bird

courtesy CDF



Notice the JF-17 behind the J-10b


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## Arsalan

imran khan said:


> its code 01 mean its first of fc-20.nice improvement keep it up China.


sir kindly let me know that how do you distinguished it being FC20 from a J10! they seem same to me, what are the visible differences in the pic,

thankyou

regards!


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## mean_bird

arsalanaslam123 said:


> sir kindly let me know that how do you distinguished it being FC20 from a J10! they seem same to me, what are the visible differences in the pic,
> 
> thankyou
> 
> regards!



While your question was to Imran Khan, and I am sure he will reply to you but let me add my few cents.

The "01" you see on the inlet (the DSI) indiciates that this is a prototype number 1. Its pretty evident they are experimenting DSI, new ECM on the tail, different type of radome, IRST, bigger elevators, etc on this. 

So if this works out well, it is reasonable to assume that this will be the standard model for future J-10 to be manufactured, just like after developing blk 40 and 50 F-16s, LM doesn't go back to manufacture blk-15 anymore. Obviously, if this model is kept then it means it is an improvement over the previous one and the design will be present for both PLAAF and export versions. 

FC-20 is still 4+ yrs away, which is significant time for any prototype tested now or even in the near future to mature and enter serial production.


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## Arsalan

mean_bird said:


> While your question was to Imran Khan, and I am sure he will reply to you but let me add my few cents.
> 
> The "01" you see on the inlet (the DSI) indiciates that this is a prototype number 1. Its pretty evident they are experimenting DSI, new ECM on the tail, different type of radome, IRST, bigger elevators, etc on this.
> 
> So if this works out well, it is reasonable to assume that this will be the standard model for future J-10 to be manufactured, just like after developing blk 40 and 50 F-16s, LM doesn't go back to manufacture blk-15 anymore. Obviously, if this model is kept then it means it is an improvement over the previous one and the design will be present for both PLAAF and export versions.
> 
> FC-20 is still 4+ yrs away, which is significant time for any prototype tested now or even in the near future to mature and enter serial production.




the thing i was confused at is that how do you state that it is a prototype for future FC20, couldnt it be an old pic of the J10 first prototype?? there must be some physical features that let you know that it is different from the J10, can you kindly shed light on it! i will appreciate if we can have pictorial comparision! it will also be benificial for other members!!

and this time my request is for all members who ever can come up with the solution post!  

regards!


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## mean_bird

This might be helpful



added: another one






arsalanaslam123 said:


> the thing i was confused at is that how do you state that it is a prototype for future FC20, couldnt it be an old pic of the J10 first prototype?? there must be some physical features that let you know that it is different from the J10, can you kindly shed light on it! i will appreciate if we can have pictorial comparision! it will also be benificial for other members!!
> 
> and this time my request is for all members who ever can come up with the solution post!
> 
> regards!



As you can see from the pictures posted above, in both cases the upper one is the J10 (existing) while the lower one is the J-10b.

See most of the things that were changed in the J10b are systems or subsystems that were developed later...later than the first version of the J10. For example, the DSI (air intakes) were tested on prototype 04 of the JF-17. Similarly, the ECM fairings ( on top of the tail) is somewhat similar to the one tested on the JF-17. It did not exist in the previous J10. Same goes with slanted radome (grey nose at front)...you can see the difference from the previous version. The IRST was developed for the J-11 which also wasn't present in the previous version.

Hope that helps.

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## Fennecus

Too many photos from too many different angles for the recent J-10B pics to be fake. 

Looks like the project is moving along on time, and will begin to be delivered to Pakistan as soon as it enters PLAAF serial production.


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## iclutchcity

imran khan said:


> its code 01 mean its first of fc-20.nice improvement keep it up China.



or means its first of the type with DSI


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## iclutchcity

ok, i have reuploaded the image.


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## hj786

Fennecus said:


> Too many photos from too many different angles for the recent J-10B pics to be fake.
> 
> Looks like the project is moving along on time, and will begin to be delivered to Pakistan as soon as it enters PLAAF serial production.



I guess PLAAF will take as many as can be built before ~2014-2015, then make deliveries to PAF too?


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## Munir

The problem is the exact date of the pics. But it cannot be far from this moment looking at vegetation around the airport. Maybe someone can help us with that (How long ago was the vegetation in Chengdu exact the same as we see on pics?)

About the release order... The first pics were engine startup pics. One can see clearly people watching closely and plane parked at a normal parking spot. These latest show that plane is doing high speed taxi tests. Mostly one month before first flight. Some of the pics with plane up in the air cannot be true cause the first flight is always with gear down... And looking at the fact that there is no pilot in the cockpit these are probably wrong.


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## mean_bird

Munir said:


> The problem is the exact date of the pics. But it cannot be far from this moment looking at vegetation around the airport. Maybe someone can help us with that (How long ago was the vegetation in Chengdu exact the same as we see on pics?)



People at CDF have speculated it to be from May since some of the windows in the buildings are open , which suggest a warm weather.

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## Rafael

^^ Lol, you guys are amazing...judging the time through vegetation and windows...

Hats off to you all!


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## wangrong

FC1#06 and J10B


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## xukxuk

so many J10B pic pup up these few day
the chinese military forum atmosphere is like party over there


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## Arsalan

mean_bird said:


> This might be helpful
> 
> 
> 
> added: another one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see from the pictures posted above, in both cases the upper one is the J10 (existing) while the lower one is the J-10b.
> 
> See most of the things that were changed in the J10b are systems or subsystems that were developed later...later than the first version of the J10. For example, the DSI (air intakes) were tested on prototype 04 of the JF-17. Similarly, the ECM fairings ( on top of the tail) is somewhat similar to the one tested on the JF-17. It did not exist in the previous J10. Same goes with slanted radome (grey nose at front)...you can see the difference from the previous version. The IRST was developed for the J-11 which also wasn't present in the previous version.
> 
> Hope that helps.



thanks alot brother,

it was rumored that the J10B will be more stealthy, taking the plane to be true 4.5 generation plane so what on with it! the DSI will add something to this point but what will be other upgrades in this regard?
more compositis, i gues??
and can someone let us know that what help the slanted nose offers!
what about ECM with the original J10 and its comparison with that of J10B and JF17!

i guess if these points are disscussed in detail it will almost conclude the J10B configration topic?

regards!


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## Arsalan

here we continue with pictorial comparision
*J10B*


*J10*


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## Munir

mean_bird said:


> People at CDF have speculated it to be from May since some of the windows in the buildings are open , which suggest a warm weather.



I think that indeed there must be some delay of 2 moths max cause the winter is a lot different. It is greenish but still hazy and foggy compared with real summer like end of may. Probably the reason for delay was the punishment remark for Chinese posters a few months ago.


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## Arsalan

the FC20 pakistan will be getting is not the J10B i guess. it will the J10 export version with SOME modifications. it might not be the J10B as it will be modified J10 for chines use!
what do you people think!

regards!


----------



## mean_bird

arsalanaslam123 said:


> thanks alot brother,
> 
> it was rumored that the J10B will be more stealthy, taking the plane to be true 4.5 generation plane so what on with it! the DSI will add something to this point but what will be other upgrades in this regard?
> more compositis, i gues??
> and can someone let us know that what help the slanted nose offers!
> what about ECM with the original J10 and its comparison with that of J10B and JF17!
> 
> i guess if these points are disscussed in detail it will almost conclude the J10B configration topic?
> 
> regards!



Getting to 4.5gen has more to do with avionics than stealth. Mind you all these generation stuff is very vague and fuzzy. There is NO official way to classify generations. Its just a general term to indicate better avionics then previous fighters like early F-16, F-15,etc.

The radome is slanted to 'supposedly' accomodate an AESA radar, which fits in a slightly slanted position. This in turn helps reduce radar reflection.

Having dedicated ECM house definitely mean an improvement in EW/ECM capability and freeing up a station for a jammer pod. 



arsalanaslam123 said:


> the FC20 pakistan will be getting is not the J10B i guess. it will the J10 export version with SOME modifications. it might not be the J10B as it will be modified J10 for chines use!
> what do you people think!
> 
> regards!



FC-20 is quite far away to speculate anything. Besides, external changes doesnt matter much but its the internal changes that will matter. If the DSI performs good, it is there to stay for all models whether for PLAAF or export. JF-17 already has DSI and dedicated ECM house on the tail. 

What will matter most of PAF is radar + weapons + Navigation systems, etc or in general terms the avionics.


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## Arsalan

mean_bird said:


> What will matter most of PAF is radar + weapons + Navigation systems, etc or in general terms the avionics.



yse perhaps the FC20 will be incorporating more westren systems and J10B is a more advanced chines avionics, radar and engine machine!
nevertheless we can get some plus points of the J10B includede in our FC20 too! like if the chines avionics worked well we will need not go for expensive westren options!

regards!


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## wangrong



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## Owais

wangrong said:


>



this might be a prototype of Xianglong Unmanned Reconnaissance Aerial Vehicle

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## Lockheed F-16

The J-10 uses PL-12 BVRs whereas the F-22 for example uses AIM 120, am I right? If this is the case, then the J-10's have a superior missile.


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## Keysersoze

On what basis? The aim 120D is the benchmark BVR


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## mean_bird

Lockheed F-16 said:


> The J-10 uses PL-12 BVRs whereas the F-22 for example uses AIM 120, am I right? If this is the case, then the J-10's have a superior missile.



How did you come to that conclusion? and which AIM-120 are you talking about because they come as different variants. 

I think the AIM-120C5 and above is currently the best A2A missile before the MBDA Meteor arrives.


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## Patriot

AIM120D is the best version but AIM120C are still in service and will be in service for quite sometime.I think Pakistan should take oppurtunity and somehow acquire MBDA Meteor Missile which is best!


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## Lockheed F-16

Some sources claim the resulting combination has a greater range than the Russian missile, and a fire-and-forget active guidance (from R-77) capability comparable to the modern U.S. AIM-120 AMRAAM.[4] [5] [6] The PL-12 is outwardly very similar to the US-designed AIM-120 AMRAAM. The two share a comparable aerodynamic configuration, although the PL-12 is a little longer, wider and heavier than the AMRAAM. The PL-12 has four rear-mounted control fins that each have a very distinctive notch cut into their base. These fins are longer and more prominent than those of the AMRAAM and are cropped at an angle (rather than in line with the missile body). Four larger triangular fins are fixed to the mid-section of the missile. Internally, the leading edge of the centrebody fins is in line with the start of the missile's rocket motor. That motor is a variable-thrust solid rocket booster, that offers two levels of motive power for different sections of the flight envelope. CATIC is known to be developing X-band and Ku-band active radar seekers, which may be intended for the PL-12. However the latest reports confirm that China has been co-operating closely with Russia's AGAT Research Institute, based in Moscow, and that AGAT is the source of the PL-12's essential active seeker. This joint development effort (perhaps with the name 'Project 129') has reportedly seen the supply of AGAT's 9B-1348 active-radar seeker (developed for the Vympel R-77, AA-12 'Adder') to China for integration with the Chinese-developed missile. Alternatively, technology from AGAT's 9B-1103M seeker family may be offered to China. Russia is also the source for the missile's inertial navigation system and datalink. The PL-12 has four engagement modes. To take the greatest advantage of its maximum range it will use a mix of command guidance (via a datalink) plus its own inertial guidance before entering the active radar terminal guidance phase. The missile can also be launched to a pre-selected point, using its strap-down inertial system, before switching on its own seeker for a terminal search. Over short ranges the missile can be launched in a 'fire-and-forget' mode using its own active seeker from the outset. Finally, the PL-12 has a 'home-on-jam' mode that allows it to passively track and engage an emitting target, without ever using its own active radar or a radar from the launch aircraft. This capability is the foundation on which the capability of anti-radiation missile is developed. The seeker is connected to a digital flight control system that uses signal processing techniques to track a target. The missile's warhead is linked to a laser proximity fuse. The PL-12 is claimed to have an operational ceiling of at least 21 km, with a maximum effective range of 80 km and a minimum engagement range of 1,000 m. The missile has a 38+ g manoeuvering limit and, according to CATIC, it has been tested for a 100-hour captive 'live flight' life. According to the Chinese claim, P*L-12 is more capable than the American AIM-120 A/B*, but slightly inferior than the AIM-120C


That was the thing I meant


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## mean_bird

The AIM-120 A/B is so yesteryear. Its like comparing something to F-16 but meaning the block 5.


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## Lockheed F-16

saadahmed said:


> AIM120D is the best version but AIM120C are still in service and will be in service for quite sometime.I think Pakistan should take oppurtunity and somehow acquire MBDA Meteor Missile which is best!



Agreed, Pakistan should try to get its hand on them, Meteors are great missiles


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## mean_bird

The MBDA meteor is on the cards for the JF-17. This was reported during IDEAS 2008. You can check their online brochure but Meteor is still a bit far away from entering service.


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## Arsalan

mean_bird said:


> The MBDA meteor is on the cards for the JF-17. This was reported during IDEAS 2008. You can check their online brochure but Meteor is still a bit far away from entering service.




well brother from what i know about the meteor, it is going to be the best air to air missile until and unless some one else comes up with some thing even better which is very unlikely as it is far superior than anything present on under development (publicaly known projects) today!

i really dont think Pakistan is ever going to get hands on to it! the only possibility is of a large contract deal including some planes, avionics for JF17 etc and then this system may be offered as there will be a lot of money involved but the missiles for JF17 only seem a bit difficult!!

do anyone of you have any link or info in this regard!


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## mean_bird

"Meanwhile, France has offered Pakistan its RC-400 radar and MBDA MICA missile for the aircraft. However, AESA radar of different makes have also been offered to the Pakistan Air Force and the MBDA Meteor missile too is on the cards. Pakistan has begun negotiations with British, Italian, and French defence firms over potential avionics and other systems for the JF-17 Thunder aircrafts." (IDEAS 2008)

Just for info, there are other possibilities too like South African new BVR (R-Darter?) and speculated Chinese Ramjet based BVR.

It depends if we for for RC-400 or some European AESA radar. Ofcourse, we can't get it to integrate on Chinese systems but if we buy a radar that is already compatible, then there are chances of getting it.


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## Gucci Juice

its offered

but can the govt afford the meteor?

it costs 1.5 million dollars PER MISSILE

thats almost 4x more than aim-120 c5, 15x more than pl-12, 2x more than the aim-120 d.

and the R series prices are not listed, but expect them to be 1.5x cheaper then the aim-120 series.

and 500 aim-120 c5's are already ordered and they're pretty good but 500 is a low quantity compared to about 3000-5000 bvr missiles the IAF has.

dont deny this because in 5 years there will be 500+1000 pl 12 which equals 1500. if u can get 1500 in 5 years than the IAF can easily get over 5000 in 20 years.


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## sohailbutt

Gucci Juice said:


> its offered
> 
> but can the govt afford the meteor?
> 
> it costs 1.5 million dollars PER MISSILE
> 
> thats almost 4x more than aim-120 c5, 15x more than pl-12, 2x more than the aim-120 d.
> 
> and the R series prices are not listed, but expect them to be 1.5x cheaper then the aim-120 series.
> 
> and 500 aim-120 c5's are already ordered and they're pretty good but 500 is a low quantity compared to about 3000-5000 bvr missiles the IAF has.
> 
> dont deny this because in 5 years there will be 500+1000 pl 12 which equals 1500. if u can get 1500 in 5 years than the IAF can easily get over 5000 in 20 years.



Can you give the sources to all the crap you've written above!

3000-5000 BVR in IAF are you nuts!

$1.5 for one missile, mate the camera on a predator UAV is only worth a $1 million dollar, AIM 120 D is worth $750,000 according to wiki, but meteor according to you is just an overstated price.

Please provide sources with your post or else it's better not to derail the thread and create confusion by posting BS!


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## Arsalan

mean_bird said:


> "Meanwhile, France has offered Pakistan its RC-400 radar and MBDA MICA missile for the aircraft. However, AESA radar of different makes have also been offered to the Pakistan Air Force and the MBDA Meteor missile too is on the cards. Pakistan has begun negotiations with British, Italian, and French defence firms over potential avionics and other systems for the JF-17 Thunder aircrafts." (IDEAS 2008)
> 
> Just for info, there are other possibilities too like South African new BVR (R-Darter?) and speculated Chinese Ramjet based BVR.
> 
> It depends if we for for RC-400 or some European AESA radar. Ofcourse, we can't get it to integrate on Chinese systems but if we buy a radar that is already compatible, then there are chances of getting it.



well if this happens it is going to be great for us. with all the things going around in our countrty and almost finalized deal being delayed (the german submarine), it seem unlikely to happen but i wish i am wrong!


]anyways thanks for the report

regards


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## Gucci Juice

sohailbutt said:


> Can you give the sources to all the crap you've written above!
> 
> 3000-5000 BVR in IAF are you nuts!
> 
> $1.5 for one missile, mate the camera on a predator UAV is only worth a $1 million dollar, AIM 120 D is worth $750,000 according to wiki, but meteor according to you is just an overstated price.
> 
> Please provide sources with your post or else it's better not to derail the thread and create confusion by posting BS!



R-27RE1/TE1 [AA-10 Alamo-C/D] [www.bharat-rakshak.com]


that's for 1500 r-27s with a range of 120-130 km

and i have no doubt that an equal amount of r-77s were ordered

also around 500 bvrs were also probably ordered for mirage 2000s

that's around 3500

close to my 3000-5000 range for bvr missiles

oh and for the cost of meteor

and the 1.5 million dollar cost is from wikipedia,WHICH IS REFERENCED FROM the auditor general of England in 2003.

the cost on wikipedia is in gbp but converting that to dollars means its 1.5 million dollars TODAY, but in future when gbp recovers it will be even more possibly 2 million dollars.

this isn't a surprise since aim-120, r-27, and r-77 have been mass produced thus lowering their price. however since meteor hasn't even been produced yet the price will be high for quite some time until some competitor emerges.

edit:

wow what a quintessence, the air chief himself says that there are 3500 bvr missiles.

now do u believe me?

if not look for a thread here

lol that was funny


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## Keysersoze

Sorry mate but you are wrong India has to declare missiles that it has under treaty. Also the shelf life on Russian missiles is low for example the r-27 is only 8 years


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## kungpaochicken

There are rumors going around in CDF that Chengdu is developing a new enhanced model of J10, it was internally referred as "big eye frogie", because it is a twin engine semi stealthy plane that looks like a frog from behind. It could be a natural extension of framed guestimation by Chinese bloggers after the leak of J10B pictures over internet, (the long-rumored DSI version just revealed to be reality, why not the twin engine version?). But who knows, even US can only equip with limited amount of 4th gen fighters, China may have to resort to a solution which is less expensive and quicker to be implemented.


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## Keysersoze

Don't know about the rest of you guys but would love to see a aircraft that looks like a frog from behind


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## kungpaochicken

Keysersoze said:


> Don't know about the rest of you guys but would love to see a aircraft that looks like a frog from behind



frogs can be very cute as well


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## Jihad

kungpaochicken said:


> frogs can be very cute as well



LOL, well the J10 plane is still shredded in clouds, China is keeping it a good secret.
The plane shouldn't be cute though, we need it to be deadly..


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## mean_bird

kungpaochicken said:


> There are rumors going around in CDF that Chengdu is developing a new enhanced model of J10, it was internally referred as "big eye froggy", because it is a twin engine semi stealthy plane that looks like a frog from behind. It could be a natural extension of framed guestimation by Chinese bloggers after the leak of J10B pictures over internet, (the long-rumored DSI version just revealed to be reality, why not the twin engine version?). But who knows, even US can only equip with limited amount of 4th gen fighters, China may have to resort to a solution which is less expensive and quicker to be implemented.



Can you please post a few links to where this rumor is being discussed?


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## kungpaochicken

well if you read Chinese and have the patience to go through 800 threads filled with jargons and teasing phrases in cjdby.net, you may find words such as "big eye frogie" or "the ribbon(4th gen fighter)shows up with much higher frequency recently. Sometime back when PPL start talking about "upturned beak J10" , I thought that was just bragging :-D


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## kungpaochicken

The so called big eye frogie was believed to be the twin engine version of J10, however recent rumors sugguest that 611 won out the 4th gen design and j14 will be a canard layout. This raises some serious debates on whether or not it is feasible to use a canard while achieving stealth capability at the same time. Most of the post express doubt over the design but it seems the info came from at least two different sources


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## Munir

Gucci Juice said:


> its offered
> 
> but can the govt afford the meteor?
> 
> it costs 1.5 million dollars PER MISSILE
> 
> thats almost 4x more than aim-120 c5, 15x more than pl-12, 2x more than the aim-120 d.
> 
> and the R series prices are not listed, but expect them to be 1.5x cheaper then the aim-120 series.
> 
> and 500 aim-120 c5's are already ordered and they're pretty good but 500 is a low quantity compared to about 3000-5000 bvr missiles the IAF has.
> 
> dont deny this because in 5 years there will be 500+1000 pl 12 which equals 1500. if u can get 1500 in 5 years than the IAF can easily get over 5000 in 20 years.



That is peanuts cause the plane that carries cost a lot more. Even the training of the pilot is more expensive...


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## Tempest II

Here 1st photo from xinhui on CDF. The other 2 from Hellraiser and on CDF too.

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## Munir

Some people tend to make hype out of nothing. Those yellow black lines are formation lights... They skipped the bulbs (RCS and easy to see for enemies). Now you can turn it on, dim it and even close the light... So only planes very next to you can see you. Nothing else. It is on many other planes.

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## FC-20

can any one tell if AESA is on cards for J-10B n which AESA will be used ofr J-10B??


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## Patriot

Nobody knows.It's a highly secret project.I guess by the time PAF will get these babies then AESA RADARs will be quite cheap compared to today's cost.


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## Arsalan

saadahmed said:


> Nobody knows.It's a highly secret project.I guess by the time PAF will get these babies then AESA RADARs will be quite cheap compared to today's cost.



well i wish its not so long that the radar get cheap!! 
i wish and hope we get em soon!! 



regards!


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## hj786

FC-20 said:


> can any one tell if AESA is on cards for J-10B n which AESA will be used ofr J-10B??



Take a look at the J-10B's nose.



You probably know that the grey part is where the radar is. Notice the straight line between the grey part and the yellow fuselage. The line is at an angle. Many believe this means J-10B will have an ESA (also known as phased array) radar . Why?

Fighters with normal Slotted Array Radars have an antenna that sits straight because a Slotted Array Radar can only send signals straight. The problem with keeping the antenna straight is that it reflects the enemy's radar signals straight back to the enemy.

Phased Array Radars (same as AESA or PESA) are special because they can send signals at any angle between 0 and 180 degrees. They can have an antenna that sits at an angle, so enemy radar signals don't bounce straight back, they bounce at an angle away from the enemy.

Basically, the photos make it looks like J-10B will have a phased array radar, either AESA or PESA. Some Chinese fellows say it will be AESA because China has already developed AESA radars for ships and AWACS aeroplanes. Problem is, AESA radars for fighters are VERY difficult to develop, so many people do not believe that. Even Europe does not have a AESA radars in its latest fighters just yet, only PESA and normal Slotted Array. But PESA radars for fighters are easier to develop, so J-10B may have PESA.

To summarise, either J-10B will have a phased array radar or China is trying to fool us all into believing it will.

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## Munir

Good post! We probably should know that at this moment the plane has no radar but fake weight installed. Then again the Tornado had during its operational years no radar! I think China has enough capability to get into PESA and AESA. The only problem for the next 4-5 years is a high performance engine...


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## pakpower

No matter which Radar will be fit in the J10b dont worry guys PAF should take good care of the IAF from every angle.


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## Munir

J10 doing cobra...




Do mind that it is a clean configuration... Personally I am curious whether they switched off the FBW or not... Well, now you have this baby soon able to handle IRST, IFR, HMS, AESA and doing some nasty flying. I think I would have this one instead of the block60. F16 had its era but if you have to stay subsonic to be nasty then you are having tough times with fast attacks and high altitude combat.

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## gambit

Munir said:


> J10 doing cobra...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do mind that it is a clean configuration... *Personally I am curious whether they switched off the FBW or not*... Well, now you have this baby soon able to handle IRST, IFR, HMS, AESA and doing some nasty flying. I think I would have this one instead of the block60. F16 had its era but if you have to stay subsonic to be nasty then you are having tough times with fast attacks and high altitude combat.


Good God Almighty...If the initials 'FBW' is to mean 'fly-by-wire', you cannot 'switch' it off. I doubt if this aircraft has dual flight control system. Either the FCS is an mech-elec-hydraulic system or a FBW-hydraulics system. Where in the world did this silly notion came from?


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## Munir

gambit said:


> Good God Almighty...If the initials 'FBW' is to mean 'fly-by-wire', you cannot 'switch' it off. I doubt if this aircraft has dual flight control system. Either the FCS is an mech-elec-hydraulic system or a FBW-hydraulics system. Where in the world did this silly notion came from?



For your info... If the Flanker does do something like this they switch off the FBW for short period... Just for fun, can you use brains or do I post something complex?

Here from the net (where you are smart enough to use google and search whether it is possible...)

>>>At one point I also practised a couple of emergencies. One of them was a stall at an extreme nose-high attitude. The aircraft, as expected by the IP, came out of control and began doing some uncontrollable oscillations, which are rather hard to explain without actually showing with my hand or with a model. The procedure for getting out of this is this: first step is to release the stick, and give the FBW system the chance to figure out and try to get the aircraft out of this situation. You have to allow it 10 seconds to do so, and believe me those 10 seconds felt like a whole life time! You have to remember that the aircraft is falling out of the sky like a brick during these 10 seconds. Then if the 10 seconds pass, and the situation hasnt changed, you have to take action. *First thing to do is to hit and hold the FBW manual-override switch to disengage the FBW system. *Then, you have to try to increase the oscillations, yes increase! You have to actually help the aircraft do what its doing and not work against it. This may sound insane, but by doing so, you will get the F16 into some very high- and very low-nose attitudes, where at one point, the aircraft is pointing vertically down. When this happens, you make sure to keep that attitude, and that will result in the aircraft regaining air speed and will therefore be flyable again.


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## Arsalan

Munir said:


> J10 doing cobra...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do mind that it is a clean configuration... Personally I am curious whether they switched off the FBW or not... Well, now you have this baby soon able to handle IRST, IFR, HMS, AESA and doing some nasty flying. I think I would have this one instead of the block60. F16 had its era but if you have to stay subsonic to be nasty then you are having tough times with fast attacks and high altitude combat.



now that some thing really facinating!!  isnt it!! 
well i agree with you sir munir that it may serve us even better that the block 60z F16. 
people may say that it is a new plane and F16 is matured with all its problems ironed out but still we must remember that by the time we start getting J10 chinaes would have gained five six years experience and i guess it is enough time for things to get smooth!
J10 is an extremly agile plane, we have seen it doing vertical take offs, sharps turns and now the cobra!!! chines sure have developed one hell of a machine  . jsut get an AESA fitted and it surely stand in the league of the top 4.5 generation planes like the EF, rafale and all!
regards!


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## Munir

The best F16 offered is the block60 and I think that it raped the idea of the F16. It is no longer lightweight. There is hardly room left to put electronics in. And we have seen it brake in the air or bursting tyres when landing. I think it had its time and it is better to develop a whole new plane like FC20. The FC20 incorporates all technology till today. It is not based on subsonic agile WVR dominator... It is much more.


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## wangrong

*J10B new pics*

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## wangrong

*J10B and J10S*

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## Fennecus

So far so good.


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## gambit

Munir said:


> For your info... If the Flanker does do something like this they switch off the FBW for short period... Just for fun, can you use brains or do I post something complex?
> 
> Here from the net (where you are smart enough to use google and search whether it is possible...)
> 
> >>>At one point I also practised a couple of emergencies. One of them was a stall at an extreme nose-high attitude. The aircraft, as expected by the IP, came out of control and began doing some uncontrollable oscillations, which are rather hard to explain without actually showing with my hand or with a model. The procedure for getting out of this is this: first step is to release the stick, and give the FBW system the chance to figure out and try to get the aircraft out of this situation. You have to allow it 10 seconds to do so, and believe me those 10 seconds felt like a whole life time! You have to remember that the aircraft is falling out of the sky like a brick during these 10 seconds. Then if the 10 seconds pass, and the situation hasnt changed, you have to take action. *First thing to do is to hit and hold the FBW manual-override switch to disengage the FBW system. *Then, you have to try to increase the oscillations, yes increase! You have to actually help the aircraft do what its doing and not work against it. This may sound insane, but by doing so, you will get the F16 into some very high- and very low-nose attitudes, where at one point, the aircraft is pointing vertically down. When this happens, you make sure to keep that attitude, and that will result in the aircraft regaining air speed and will therefore be flyable again.


I worked on the F-16 for five years and prior to that on the F-111 also for five years. I doubt, that given what I have seen from you so far, that you can post a source that is too complex for me to grasp. So either you have no sources to back up your argument, or that you misunderstood what your sources said. If you misunderstood the technical aspects of your sources, then we can see who is cannot understand complex issues.

So show everyone your sources.

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## mean_bird

gambit said:


> I worked on the F-16 for five years and prior to that on the F-111 also for five years. I doubt, that given what I have seen from you so far, that you can post a source that is too complex for me to grasp. So either you have no sources to back up your argument, or that you misunderstood what your sources said. If you misunderstood the technical aspects of your sources, then we can see who is cannot understand complex issues.
> 
> So show everyone your sources.



Gambit,

I believe what Munir is referring to is FBW both as a FBW system and as FCS. The system has build-in checks that will not allow you to do maneuvers that potentially gets you into irrecoverable postion. The computer code on the system just won't allow you to do so.

For example, take the case of airbus which also uses FBW systems. If you pitch the nose up too high, the FCS automatically increases engine power without you having to touch it. It also won't allow you to go beyond a certain AoA. Same is the case if you try to roll it..it just won't let you turn upside down.

However, at any time during the flight, you can manually override these instructions. The idea here is that in an emergency situation, you might need to do maneuvers that are beyond "safe limits" established by the manufacturers. This was even talked about in the recent Air France Airbus A330 accident over the Atlantic where people suggested that FBW could have maintained restrictions over the pilot but Airbus refuted the idea saying you can override those at any time. If you remember, a similar thing happened to a recent Qantas flight, where due to bad sensor data, the auto-pilot took a sudden dive. To get out of this situation, they had to not only turn off the auto-pilot but also override these "safe limits" to get out of the situation.

As for the source, here is what Munir was talking about.

F16 simulator report

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## a1b2c145

almost have fresh pics everyday!

greet!


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## gambit

mean_bird said:


> Gambit,
> 
> I believe what Munir is referring to is FBW both as a FBW system and as FCS. The system has build-in checks that will not allow you to do maneuvers that potentially gets you into irrecoverable postion. The computer code on the system just won't allow you to do so.
> 
> For example, take the case of airbus which also uses FBW systems. If you pitch the nose up too high, the FCS automatically increases engine power without you having to touch it. It also won't allow you to go beyond a certain AoA. Same is the case if you try to roll it..it just won't let you turn upside down.
> 
> However, at any time during the flight, you can manually override these instructions. The idea here is that in an emergency situation, you might need to do maneuvers that are beyond "safe limits" established by the manufacturers. This was even talked about in the recent Air France Airbus A330 accident over the Atlantic where people suggested that FBW could have maintained restrictions over the pilot but Airbus refuted the idea saying you can override those at any time. If you remember, a similar thing happened to a recent Qantas flight, where due to bad sensor data, the auto-pilot took a sudden dive. To get out of this situation, they had to not only turn off the auto-pilot but also override these "safe limits" to get out of the situation.


Overriding safety limiters is a far cry from...


Munir said:


> Personally I am curious whether they *switched off the FBW* or not...


When I had my flight in an F-111E over the UK, I was in the WSO's seat, we had a request from the French to assist them in testing their new defense radar. We were in a four-ship flight and was authorized to do anything to help the French out. Even though I was not a pilot, I was well familiar with the F-111's avionics that I overrode the TFR's safety limits and we were 12-15meters over the Channel. I tuned the TFR sufficiently sensitive that we were picking up surface waves. It made for a very bumpy flight as the TFR interpreted the waves to be 'terrain'. The French never picked us up until we broke horizon, which pretty much mean weapons release and that radar would have been dead.

When I had my flight in an F-16D over the Gulf of Mexico, the pilot overrode the FCS limiters and I experienced +9gs turns. It helped that we were clean, which was unusual for a D. I know what safety limiters are.



mean_bird said:


> As for the source, here is what Munir was talking about.
> 
> F16 simulator report


I know...I found it easily enough. Too bad he interpreted it to mean turning off the FCS then implied may be I cannot understand technically complex topics.


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## Hasnain2009

View attachment c23c71cc74182516dfbfe65d1c167522.jpg


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## mean_bird

gambit said:


> Good God Almighty...If the initials 'FBW' is to mean 'fly-by-wire', you cannot 'switch' it off. I doubt if this aircraft has dual flight control system. Either the FCS is an mech-elec-hydraulic system or a FBW-hydraulics system. Where in the world did this silly notion came from?





gambit said:


> Overriding safety limiters is a far cry from...




Lots of people refer to the complete system of pilot command +FCC+Sensors+automatic correction as "fly-by-wire" as opposed to just replacing the hydraulics by electrical wires. 

I don't think Munir meant replacing electrical wires by hydraulics when he talked about turning FBW but actually overriding the FCC manually, which is definitely possible. 

"Turning off" or manually over-riding the FCC is a bit more than just over-riding safety limits, which I gave just as an example. I am in a hurry now, but if you want I can explain that in detail later.

So I guess we all agree to manual over-riding of the FBW system, right?



> Originally Posted by Munir View Post
> First thing to do is to hit and hold the FBW manual-override switch to disengage the FBW system.

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## Munir

Well, if we switched the definitions then I say sorry for that but Mean_bird explained it terrific so I thanked him twice. It is indeed not the whole systems of actuators etc that is inactive but the automatic correction at high level. If a sensor makes a big mistake then you would end up dead... I think the Royal Dutch Airforce vcould do a funny trick when up and very high by switching off the fbw on their f16MLU's. Heard that also from Flanker pilots. After the trick they always turned it back on. Anyway, nice to know to have someone with more then words. I have some experience in destructive and non destructive testing and maintenance. Non weapon (ejection seat included) and non avionics.

Did had some university lectures about latest fbw but was happy to dump that knowledge... I think in the pre jf17 they could turn off the fbw computers one by one... And somehow the f22 must have it how else do the reboot the computers during flight?


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## Munir

Seems to be authentic. Plane did a sorty. Taxied back right to the spot where a new chute is on the tarmac... Then it was added and it went away. OK!


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## Fennecus

J-10B.


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## Munir

Eat this MKI...

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## SQ8

Munir i had a chat about the FCS limiter a while back with some people at F-16.net, according to them it serves very little purpose in terms of increasing maneuverability. rather it serves to exceed AOA limits in a deep stall situation.


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## Munir

Well, that limiter is set for Belgium F16 MLU at 10 g While the dutch can touch max 9... The reason is that Belgiun goes for max agility while the Dutch want to have more flight time...


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## qsaark

One more picture of the same plane:

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## Youdiedz

In December 2008, rumors were rife of the J-10's latest incarnation, the J-10B, had taken off for the first time. Now in April 2009, we see the initial leak of images for this plane. The J-10B appears as the next iteration of China's vaunted 4th Generation fighter and looks to take the J-10 to the 4.5 Generation level. 

The differences that have been identified from the earlier J-10 include a DSI intake, similar to the one on the FC-1/JF-17. The nose is now oval, more similar to an F-16's and is slightly canted downwards. An IRST similar to the J-11Bs also feature on top of the nose. Slanted radome paint along with some of the other features suggest an AESA radar.

The J-10B incorporates a new small ECM housing on the vertical stabilizer and this stabilizer also appears to be longer and ending in a "shark-fin". The ECM housing is similar to the housing on the JF-17. The two ventral fins are also extended further and are larger irrespective of the shark-fin. The aerodynamic refinements of the longer vertical stabilizer and the ventral fins appear to be a result of the DSI intakes which create greater lateral forces on the aircraft. 

The wide angle HUD featured on the J-11Bs seem to have also appeared on the J-10B. While it cannot be confirmed, it appears that the cockpit itself has been redesigned extensively. Other than the new ECM housing on the vertical stabilizer, new MAWs appear on the tail bump. Just below these, curious breaks appear on the fuselage that some observers are referring to as possible formation lights "slime lights", but expert opinion from a Lockheed Martin source suggest that they are FLIR sensors. A redesigned satellite communication unit appears right behind the cockpit. 

A retractable refueling probe is likely, given the development of the J-10 thus far, and is possibly located on the port side, not visible in the latest photographs. The photographs also suggest new under-wing pylons. These appear to be strengthened for a variety of possible uses, ranging from larger drop tanks to ASMs. 

The engine is likely to be either a redesigned WS-10A (B?) or possibly the WS-15, a new generation engine currently in advanced development. This would not only have higher thrust than the AL-31s, but also feature TVCs, giving the J-10Bs vaunted agility an even greater boost. The actual engine on the aircraft presently on the released pictures, is the AL-31. 

Like the J-10S, a J-10BS is also eventually likely. This would be an advanced trainer with the 360 degree view similar to the J-10S. EW/Wild Weasel variants could also eventually be possible.

PAF 

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has shown a great deal of interest in the J-10 project as a possible substitute for Western combat aircraft for its high end requirements. The PAF, however, wanted a more modern version. Just as the FC-1s (and before the FC-1, the F-7s) were significantly upgraded due to the PAF's push for improvements, the J-10 appears to be going through a similar phase. The reason for this is that the PAF has a far closer view of Western technologies and trends and thus can provide deeper insight than more insulated Chinese expertise. The J-10B in all likelihood has had major input from the PAF and is the FC-20 that the PAF has ordered. 

While there were rumors of the PAF receiving its first J-10s as early as 2009, the purchase has been delayed to 2014/2015. However, there is no doubt that the PAF sees its future inextricably linked to the J-10Bs/FC-20s. Informed sources suggest that PAF is not only looking to purchase, but to set up the necessary infrastructure to maintain and upgrade these birds. According to well informed sources, the aforementioned delay is primarily as a result of engine issues. The AL-31 would create maintenance and logistics problems for the PAF, given the lack of a working relationship with Russia. The WS-10A/B has not met quality standards. This leaves the PAF high and dry for now vis-a-vis the J-10. Their engine options now are to either to wait for a more reliable WS-10A version or to go for the WS-15, a new generation engine with similar dimensions.

WS-15 Milestone Celebration 

The delay in procurement is critical for PAF as it needs a quality high end to counter the larger IAF with her MKIs, Mirage-2000s and MRCA. With a new sensor rich environment dominated by AWACS on both sides and a large number of BVR platforms, higher altitude BVR engagements would become vital. J-10s are ideally suited for such combat given their aerodynamics including low wing loading in an A2A configuration. The instantaneous turn rates achievable on the J-10 (or the Euro canards) are likely to give an advantage in such engagements, as opposed to the high wing loadings on the over-evolved F-16s which were essentially designed for turning dog fights rather than high altitude BVR slash and dash maneuvers. 

With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India. Even then, with the 5 present contenders left in the MRCA, only the Eurofighter (assuming AESA radars) would be able to match the J-10 in air-to-air combat. 

The PAF is looking for a total of 150 high end aircraft like the F-16 Block 52s and the FC-20 (J-10Bs or J-10Ps). The FC-20s could be procured in greater numbers, depending on relations with the U.S. and the operability of the F-16s. The J-10Ps and the JF-17s make a perfect pair - one ideal for high altitude air superiority and deep strike missions while the other ideal as a true multirole fighter. Where the J-10 lacks in deep strike, the F-16s make up for it. Where the J-10s lack in CAS, the JF-17s make up for it. Where the JF-17 lacks in high altitude BVR engagements, the J-10s make up for it. 

The J-10s, F-16s and JF-17s also fit into the AFFDP-2019 requirements. The AFFDP-2019 is the core document on the strategic planning of Pakistan's armed forces over 15 years. While this document is not available in the public domain, informed sources note that the PAF has been assigned procurement of only single engine combat aircraft. The J-10Ps/FC-20s coupled with the JF-17s and F-16s thus ideally meet these requirements. 

In the event that the Indian Air Force decides to procure massive numbers of Western 4.5 generation fighters, beyond the 126 MRCA, while increasing the Su-30MKI numbers and upgrades their MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s, the PAF has a clear charted path in increasing JF-17s and FC-20s, having by then set up the infrastructure and training for these planes. Further, the JF-17s would not only allow PAF to counter numbers, but also allow her to maintain larger numbers of FC-20s and F-16s for war-time and lower their depreciation - providing a low cost training aircraft to fly liberally during peacetime. This would be a similar arrangement to how the Israeli Air Force uses F-16s to keep meet the flight time allocations of its F-15 pilots. 

The PAF is looking to add as much potency as possible, within its budget constraints; shopping for avionics from Western sources to add further potential to its JF-17s and FC-20s. Thus far, Chinese developments have been so rapid that by the time decisions were to be made at the PAF, the Chinese would meet or exceed requirements and the competition at a lower price. It remains to be seen if this can be pulled off again by the Chinese when PAF goes shopping for the next block of JF-17s and the new FC-20s. For the FC-20s, EW, cockpit interface and reliability of the new Chinese AESA radar will play a critical role. The PAF is meanwhile keeping open options with European equivalents, including the M-AESA (Multi-role Active Electronically Scanned Antenna) being developed by Saab and Selex and a French AESA, yet to be revealed. 

By 2014, some of PAF's F-16s would be ready for retirement as well. While they have been better kept than many other air forces, some of these birds would by then have been in service for more than 30 years. FC-20s could also be used to replace these. 

J-10Bs for Iran? 

There have been some reports of Iran being interested in purchasing the J-10Bs from China. Looking at Iran's present arsenal, there is no doubt Iran needs new planes. In fact, it has been seen as surprising that Iran has not procured new fighter planes from China since a small purchase of J-7s. They certainly have shown interest in the new J-7Gs and the JH-7s, both perfect substitutes for Iranian F-5s, Su-24s and F-4s. With some Israeli lineage in the J-10s, some commentators have questioned if their may not be an agreement that these birds never be sold to Iran, as a condition for Israeli technical help. Another reason is that Iran and China have not always seen eye-to-eye on patent related issues. Life is stranger than fiction it appears, as China has had issues with its products being reverse-engineered by Iran. 



J-10 Vs F-16 Technical Comparison 

The F-16 was designed from the outset as a dog-fighter. The moderate sweep of the wings and aspect ratios were ideal for this. The trade-off however, was greater supersonic resistance. The thrust offered by the two engine options on the F-16 is impressive even to this day. TWR in air combat is about 1.15, ensuring impressive climbing rates and sustained turn rates. As noted, the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance, not only in its wing design but also in its fixed air intakes. In supersonic flight, engine thrust is lost. While it can reach Mach 2.0, pragmatically it has poor supersonic performance. 

While the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance for subsonic dogfighting, the J-10 did not make the same sacrifice. Thus, while when the F-16 was designed, turning dogfights were what was projected as the bread and butter of air combat, when the J-10 was being designed, the BVR era had arrived (or re-arrived). The J-10s aerodynamic design, including wing design and inlet design, take this into account. For instance, the J-10 visibly has greater wing sweep and a variable inlet. With the J-10B, a DSI intake. While the J-10B sacrifices maximum theoretical top speeds with its DSI intakes, for all relevant combat speeds, it gives the J-10 superior performance. 

Under modern BVR conditions and higher altitude combat, the J-10 is significantly superior to the F-16. This is also reflected in its higher instantaneous turn rates. The Mirage-2000s have been a point of major concern both for the Pakistanis and the Turkish air forces, because of these aerodynamic issues, despite the Mirages weak engines. The Greeks, who operated both the Mirage 2000 and F-16C considered the F-16 to be better at low altitude, low speed, hard turning fights, and Mirage 2000 to be superior at hi-hi.The F-16 would have to attempt to survive the first merge in an air combat scenario, which becomes increasingly suicidal with high off-bore sight missiles. BVR further compounds these problems for the F-16s. In previous eras, flying hi and fast was fine, but you often had to come down low to engage a low flying enemy aircraft. Today, that becomes less relevant with longer range BVR missiles and look-down shoot-down capabilities. 

The F-16 has also been adding weight over time and attempting to counterbalance this with increased engine thrust. However, since wing area remained the same, maneuverability has been sacrificed. Higher wing loading is particularly detrimental for higher altitude maneuverability. The J-10 on the other hand, has all the wing area it could ever need with a delta canard layout. 

The newer block F-16s however, are great for low altitude air-to-ground missions. The high wing loading favors low fliers and the moderate wing sweep helps handling at lower speeds often necessary during ordnance delivery. The J-10 is thus not ideal for the CAS role. However, because of the range and payload advantages, the J-10 can be considered an effective deep striker. CAS was never a pressing need for the PLAAF, and the PAF has the JF-17 which is ideal for that role.

Chinese 5th Gen 
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--> 
<!--[endif]-->

The 5th Generation Chinese stealth plane is what would eventually close down J-10 production. The XXJ or J-XX as it is often referred to, has been the subject of intense competition between China's two premier fighter design institutions - CAC and SAC. While CAC's 611 Institute lost the bid to SAC's 601 Institute, both entities have begun joint development of the new fighter. How the rivalry plays out remains to be seen. It appears Chengdu has the upper hand as it is perceived to have been more successful. J-10 program director Liu Gaozhou recently stated that, " we are researching and developing a fourth generation to meet the requirements of defending the motherland." China's fourth generation is of course, the 5th generation we refer to in the West. 

The design is a conventional layout in direct similarity to the F-22. The J-XX will be powered by the WS-15, a new generation engine in development. Normal TO weight would roughly measure to 20 tons and thus be in the heavy fighter class.The J-XX would possibly be superior to all but the PAKFA and the F-22, being inferior to the latter. 

What has escaped most observer radars is the MiG-E and a yet unnamed fighter from China that represent a direct counterpart to the F-35. According to an informed source, the configuration of the MiG-E is a canard delta while the configuration for the Chinese equivalent is hitherto not known. It is however, this author's opinion that we will not see (as in leaked photographs on the internet) any development on the 5th Generation front for at least the next decade. Meanwhile, we will see steady evolution of the J-10 and J-11 with every new block and reworked configurations.

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## Manticore

the link to the above post
Grande Strategy: The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging


China&#8217;s Emerging 5th Generation Air-to-Air Missiles
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.181/pub_detail.asp





International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Chengdu J-10 Fighters for Iran
j10 stats table from this link


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## Stealth




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## Tempest II

While the above photo is a fake - I have seen photos of the J-10 with a double PL-12 pylon next to the outer PL-8. Which makes 4. I have then seen a seperate image (real) with a PL-12 missiles under each of the inlet dict pylons. That makes a total of six.


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## Stealth

Tempest II said:


> While the above photo is a fake - I have seen photos of the J-10 with a double PL-12 pylon next to the outer PL-8. Which makes 4. I have then seen a seperate image (real) with a PL-12 missiles under each of the inlet dict pylons. That makes a total of six.



maybe u r right dude...! sorry if this one fake i really dont know


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## Stealth




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## Munir

http://bp3.blogger.com/_I2KtyvwA8HQ/SBoVv_sEwEI/AAAAAAAAA7g/8cJMz2z5Zgc/s1600-h/1_J-10-2.jpg
http://bp2.blogger.com/_I2KtyvwA8HQ.../s1600-h/b7d85d6d9d97a1063c4d304bd04d33d1.jpg

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## wangrong



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## mean_bird

Quoted from SDF


a TV program on CCTV discussing the prospect of China exporting J-10. There is a bunch of stuff said about J-10.
¼ß-10ÄÜ·ñ³ÉÎª¹ú¼ÊÊÐ³¡³è¶ù£¿ ·ÀÎñÐÂ¹Û²ì CCTV.com

- First J-10 has excellent maneuverability, so a lot of advantage in WVR combat

- Using J-10 to take orders away from F-16
- J-10's T/W ratio allows for its climb rate, it's sea level acceleration, its roll rate and take-off distance to be very good

- *It says that J-10 is mass equipped with ESA radar* (didn't mention PESA or AESA), kind of surprising because up to this point, we all thought it was using slotted array radar

- It says that the radar allows it to detect stealth fighters at certain distance (I'm assuming it's saying a respectable distance).

- It says that it is equal to or better than F-16C in most aspects (I think it's being compared to the recent variant in Singapore) and that it's also currently the best fighter in Asia in this category.

- they believe that the climb rate of J-10 is greater than that of Rafale

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## DANGER-ZONE

what about this..people r saying that this is photoshoped.

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## waqasjj

These air craft pics are very nice.Iwill use them as wallpaper


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## wangrong



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## Munir

The first time you see pitot tube with the extra direction sensors... Definately a real test model... I see tensions sensors on all moveable parts... Definately they first 10 flights.

I still try to onderstand those 2 pods/pylons... Could be same as something to localize stealth aircraft. It looks like they use GSM technology to achieve that.


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## DANGER-ZONE

no no...just see the missile,its too bright.and soft painted portion in the middle and fogy tail???
i dont think that pic is photoshoped,but people were talking about these things on multimedia forum on defence.pk
*well wat ever,plz tell me that four underneeth hard points r capable of loading SD-10 missiles or not.*


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## Munir

Anyone able to translate? Thanks.

?-10??????????-??????20090614?-??????-??????


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## hj786

Munir said:


> I still try to onderstand those 2 pods/pylons... Could be same as something to localize stealth aircraft. It looks like they use GSM technology to achieve that.



Why couldn't they just be very strong hardpoints for carrying multiple ejector racks? Are there any fighters with similar structures? They could be ECM fairings, but there is already one at the tip of the tail fin according to many.


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## Speeder

Munir said:


> Anyone able to translate? Thanks.
> 
> ?-10??????????-??????20090614?-??????-??????




Nothing special there. It argues that to maintain China's role as a major weapon exporter, J-10 should take the leading role in the coming years to take F16 customers by its pricing advantage, since within light fighter catagory J-10's specs in general are better than Israeli Levi, and similar to F-16C stationed in Singapore.

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## IceCold

Is it possible that the reason we have delayed the procurement of the J-10 by 2014 is because next year we are suppose to get F-16s block-52 and from that time onwards we will have enough experience to incooperate our experience into the J-10 to perhaps take it to a level ahead of the block-52 F-16s. That is ofcourse a hypothesis, perhaps some one shed more light on to it.


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## mean_bird

IceCold said:


> Is it possible that the reason we have delayed the procurement of the J-10 by 2014 is because next year we are suppose to get F-16s block-52 and from that time onwards we will have enough experience to incooperate our experience into the J-10 to perhaps take it to a level ahead of the block-52 F-16s. That is ofcourse a hypothesis, perhaps some one shed more light on to it.



PAF pilots have been flying the UAE blk 60 for some time now (and I believe even the technicians there are also PAF personnel?) so I suppose they have plenty of experience in that area. 


The primary reason, I believe, is to allow China to mature its engine and also avionics (I believe it will be all chinese and no western equipments on it) like radar, navigation system, weapons, etc.

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## SBD-3

mean_bird said:


> PAF pilots have been flying the UAE blk 60 for some time now (and I believe even the technicians there are also PAF personnel?) so I suppose they have plenty of experience in that area.
> 
> i also read it somewhere that PAF pilots also have sufficient experience of F-15SEs operated by RSAF that experience might also become handy


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## TOPGUN

Do u guys think the fc-20 when we get it will be in the light grey schme as well?


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## SBD-3

I hope so but I would like to see it in white colour like some j-7s


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## Munir

This plane gets more and more potential... The Chinese of F18 Growler...

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## SBD-3

that is J-8 ryt?


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## Tempest II

hasnain0099 said:


> that is J-8 ryt?



That is the JH-7.


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## SBD-3

ok but is JH-7 different from J-7?


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## wangrong




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## IceCold

Is the pic PS? Either case looks cool. Is it J-10b because the air intake appears to be DSI. Also what pod is it carrying?


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## wangrong




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## DANGER-ZONE

r there four underneeth hard points in j10b too.what kind of hardpoint this j10 have overhere.


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## qsaark




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## SBD-3

danger-zone said:


> r there four underneeth hard points in j10b too.what kind of hardpoint this j10 have overhere.



yap I think its also carries the same HPs as J-10 i.e. 11


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## DANGER-ZONE

Tempest II said:


> While the above photo is a fake - I have seen photos of the J-10 with a double PL-12 pylon next to the outer PL-8. Which makes 4. I have then seen a seperate image (real) with a PL-12 missiles under each of the inlet dict pylons. That makes a total of six.







one is here,j 10 with multipaylons for sd-10.can u show other pic of six missiles.and also tell me that y j10 cannot load 4 underneeth missiles.

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## Tempest II

danger-zone said:


> one is here,j 10 with multipaylons for sd-10.can u show other pic of six missiles.and also tell me that y j10 cannot load 4 underneeth missiles.



In your photo about, there are 4 SD-10s on two pylons. The inner pylons, can carry another 2 as below to make a total of 6. 



The photo I had seen with SD-10 on the intake (chin) pylons, apparently was photoshopped.


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## a1b2c145

this pic shows the composite material used on this plane,absolutely not a PS pic


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## a1b2c145

IceCold said:


> Is the pic PS? Either case looks cool. Is it J-10b because the air intake appears to be DSI. Also what pod is it carrying?


this pic shows the composite material used on this plane,absolutely not a PS pic


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## a1b2c145

Munir said:


> This plane gets more and more potential... The Chinese of F18 Growler...



look at its hard points~

in fact, i think Pakistan need more this plane(JH-7) than JF-17!!!


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## SBD-3

a1b2c145 said:


> look at its hard points~
> 
> in fact, i think Pakistan need more this plane(JH-7) than JF-17!!!



are you just considering the hardpoints for a case of preference?


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## wangrong



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## MZUBAIR

a1b2c145 said:


> look at its hard points~
> 
> in fact, i think Pakistan need more this plane(JH-7) than JF-17!!!



Man, JF-17 is more advanced.............................


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## SBD-3

MZUBAIR said:


> Man, JF-17 is more advanced.............................


Both are different ACs JH-7 is more of a pricesion strike AC suitable for the said role whereas JF-17 is a multirole AC espacially for CAS and interception role this AC is custom made for that role no wonder China is not considering this as an export option due to its limited role in PLAAF as opposed to J-10 or J-11
here s an article 
China revives production of JH-7 strike aircraft 



Monday, June 08, 2009
By Kaleem Omar

China is now spending upwards of $ 60 billion a year to modernise its military, with the eventual aim of giving it power-projection capability far beyond its borders. In typical fashion, however, Beijing is not rushing pell mell into this endeavour, but is proceeding with due deliberation one step at a time, so as not to alarm its neighbours. 

Unlike the United States, China is also not given to throwing its weight about in its dealings with other countries and tends to err, if anything, on the side of caution. Such caveats aside, however, the fact remains that China is becoming stronger and stronger militarily with each passing year and recently announced plans to build its first aircraft carrier battle group. The US has 12 such battle groups, so its going to be a long time before China achieves conventional military parity with America. 

*Such larger issues aside, China has, meanwhile, decided to revive production of its JH-7 strike aircraft. British and French engine manufacturers are vying with each other to provide China with engine technology to support the potential additional production of 170 upgraded JH-7s.

First produced in the mid-1990s, the JH-7 met with limited success because the aircraft maker, Xian Aircraft Co., Xian, Shaanxi, China, experienced difficulties in manufacturing the powerplant, the WS9 turbofan engine. The WS9 is a version of the Rolls Royce Spey Mk202 that the company builds under licence.*
A report in the American weekly military journal Defence News quoted industrial and government sources as saying that China is now planning additional production of the JH-7. According to the report, discussions have been going on with Rolls Royce plc, London, and France&#8217;s Societe Nationale d&#8217;Etude et de Construction de Monteurs d&#8217;Aviation (Snecma), to build engines for the attack aircraft.

Jean-Paul Bechat, president of Snecma, was quoted as saying that his company was having regular discussions with the Chinese authorities about the possibility of fitting the M53 engine to a variant of the JH-7 aircraft. The M53 powers the French Mirage 2000 fighter aircraft.

Another Snecma official familiar with the Asian market was quoted as saying that discussions with China had so far centred on the technical feasibility of replacing the JH-7&#8217;s existing engine with the &#8220;slightly more powerful&#8221; M53. 

A Chinese official was quoted as saying that China is building the JH-7. He said the Chinese Navy&#8217;s aviation arm is is buying the JH-7. Bringing the JH-7 into widespread service within the Naval Air Force would boost the service&#8217;s capabilities, the Chinese official was quoted as saying.

A European industrialist was quoted as saying that the People&#8217;s Liberation Army&#8217;s Naval Air Force could produce an additional 50 to 70 aircraft, and the PLA Air Force may purchase some 100 planes. Some of the planes to be built will be improved variants of the aircraft, dubbed the JH-7A. 

*The JH-7, a two-seat, twin-engine, attack aircraft, is in limited service with the Naval Air Force. According to the Defence News report, the naval JH-7 is equipped with standoff anti-ship missiles and would be used primarily for maritime strike missions.*
In addition to talks with Snecma, Chinese officials are also discussing the Spey Mk202 with Rolls Royce. Under the terms of a deal concluded in the late 1970s, Rolls Royce has provided several dozen Spey engines to China, with the intention that the Xian Aero-engine Co. was to manufacture the engine under licence as the WS9, says the Defence News report.

A source was quoted as saying that discussions with the British company now focus on Rolls Royce providing further support and sub-components to Xian to support a production run of the WS9. Rolls Royce may also provide a number of additional complete second-hand Spey engines. &#8220;We have a long standing relationship with China,&#8221; Gary Atkins, a Rolls Royce spokesman, was quoted as saying.

With regard to the Chinese Spey/WS9, Atkins was quoted as saying, &#8220;We have been supporting this project in a number of ways, ever since China acquired a batch along with the manufacturing technology.&#8221;

According to the Defence News report, there remains considerable political sensitivity surrounding the sale of military equipment to China, which remains subject to a European Union arms embargo, though this covers only weaponry and complete weapons systems.

The Snecma official was quoted as saying that since the discussions with Chinese officials had so far been of a technical nature, his company had not sought approval from the French government. He added, however, that if business discussions get underway, Snecma would first have to get French government approval for any sale.

&#8220;It&#8217;s a delicate situation because the European Union imposed an embargo on military exports to China in 1989 which is still in place,&#8221; the Snecma official said. He said that any export contracts for this type of engine to China would also have to go through the European Union&#8217;s code of conduct for arms exports regulations.

The official said that it was likely that China would want to put new engines on the JH-7 in the 2004-2006 time frame, but that these dates were not fixed. China would insist on at least having full repair and maintenance capacity for these engines, he said. Ideally, what they would want &#8220;is step by step to reach 80 per cent capacity of building the M53 engine themselves, 10 or 15 years down the road.&#8221;

Meanwhile, in another development, Russia and China have clinched a deal to have more Su-27SK fighters assembled at a Chinese aviation plant for China&#8217;s Air Force.

The $ 1.4 billion deal involves a contract for the fighters to be assembled at the Shenyang Aircraft Making Factory in Shenyang, Liaoning province.The contract was signed by Chinese defence officials and managers of Russia&#8217;s chief arms exporter, Rosvoorouzhenie. 

It is not known how many Su-27SK fighters will be assembled under the deal, but the contract reportedly bans the Chinese from exporting any of these jets.

A press report said that Ivan Skrylnik, spokesman for Rosvoorouzhenie, refused to give details about the deal, as did Yuri Chervakov, spokesman for AVPK Sukjoi, which develops and manufactures Sukhoi fighters. Both companies are based in Moscow. 

The Russian government was said to have welcomed the cash deal as it would inject liquidity into Russia&#8217;s defence industry and keep employees of AVPK Sukhoi and its subcontractors busy for years.

The SU-27SK is an export version of the Russian Air Force&#8217;s basic SU-27. The SU-27SK began production in 1991. It has a maximum range of 3,680 kilometres, a maximum speed of 2,125 kilometres per hour and can carry up to eight air-to-air missiles. 

Though described by Rosvoorouzhenie as an advanced aircraft, the Su-27SK is today not quite in the same class more advanced models, such as the French-made Mirage 2000-5s or modified F-16s operated by the Taiwanese and Japanese air forces, respectively, according to Konstantin Makienko. Deputy head of the Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) in Moscow. 

Paradoxically, the fact that the Su-27SK is inferior to the Mirage 2000-5 and even Sukhoi&#8217;s own Su-30MKK fighter could turn into a positive development for AVPK Sukho, Makienko was quoted as saying.

&#8220;Sooner or later the Chinese will have to upgrade these planes to modern requirements, such as the ability to attack ground targets. This means that Sukho will sign new deals to carry out these upgrades,&#8221; Makienko was quoted as saying. 

Russia and China concluded a $ 2 billion deal in 1996 to have the Shenyang Aircraft Making Factory assemble 200 Su-27SKs from kits provided by AVPK Sukhoi&#8217;s Komsomolsk-om-Amur Aviation Production Association, according to CAST figures. China also signed a deal in 1990 to procure 20 Su-27SKs and four Su-27UBK combat/training fighters.

In another development, a group of Chinese officials visited Moscow in August 2000 to negotiate the purchase of Russian-built A-50 early warning aircraft. The visit came in the wake of the failure of a similar deal between Beijing and Israel for Phalcon early warning aircraft.

The talks focused on an advanced version of Russia&#8217;s A-50 early warning and control aircraft, dubbed A-50E, for which the Scientific Production Corporation&#8217;s Moscow Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Engineering (MNIIP) has already developed an advanced radar system. 

An MNIIP official was quoted as saying that the Chinese were interested in buying several A-50E aircraft.

The Chinese became interested in buying the A-50E in the autumn of 2000 after then-Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Baruk sent a letter to then-Chinese President Jiang Zemin in July that year informing him of the Israeli decision to back out of the $ 250 million Phalcon sale. 

Barak&#8217;s decision, which was prompted by heavy American pressure to kill the deal, was made during the US-sponsored peace talks between Israeli and Palestinian leaders at Camp David in July 2000.


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## a1b2c145

MZUBAIR said:


> Man, JF-17 is more advanced.............................




sir. 

1. So far as i know , during a survey on chinese pilots recently ,FBC-1 was voted as the best aircraft to control . 
More advanced JF-17 is, it handles not as easily as FBC-1 which even FC-20 can't compare favourably with .
2. FBC-1 , a multifunctional aircraft with many versions such as version for navy , version for Electronic Warfare and version for Ground Attack, has more hardpoints which can take more weapons. FBC-1(version for ground attack) adapts to Pakistan and India's mountainous landform ,and can plays a very important role on bombing. so FBC-1 can also replace A-5 aircraft.
3. FBC-1 has two cocpit and two Entirely self-made engines which is more reliable and powerful than JF-17.
4. JF-17 is only a little advanced than FBC-1 on avionics specially designed for air fight
5. JF-17 can be made in Pakistan which is veery important.

in conclusion, FBC-1 is better for a mountainous nation like Pakistan , and less welcome than JF-17 if we think much of Own Design Manufacturing .

All pics are for FBC-1~~ you can compare it with JF-17


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## wangrong

1&#12289;Both are different &#65292; different role 

JH7/JH7A &#65306; version for navy 
version for Electronic Warfare 
version for Ground Attack
version for Air Attack&#65288;Self-defense &#65289;

JF17: version for Ground Attack
version for Air Attack
*version for navy ???&#65288;maybe c701)*

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## wangrong

.......so FBC-1 can also replace A-5 aircraft.
--------------------------------------------------
i don't think so, Because he is very expensive &#65292;so i think 
PLAAF will buy JF17 to replace A-5


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## wangrong

*3&#12289;JF-17 is advanced than JH7 on "air to air"

JH7 is advanced than JF17 on "air to ground/navy"*

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## Arsalan

i think we cannot afford a dedicated groung atack platform at the time! a JF17 with passage of time may well be modified for beter groung/sea attack mission roles! this will be a better option as we have worked thri=ough the difficult part of manufacturing a plane and all we will have to do will be to modify two or three squadrons for dedicated ground attack role !!

what do you think?

regards!


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## hj786

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i think we cannot afford a dedicated groung atack platform at the time! a JF17 with passage of time may well be modified for beter groung/sea attack mission roles! this will be a better option as we have worked thri=ough the difficult part of manufacturing a plane and all we will have to do will be to modify two or three squadrons for dedicated ground attack role !!
> 
> what do you think?
> 
> regards!



They are already developing the twin-seat model which will be turned into a dedicated ground attack model, according to International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Chinese Dimensions of the 2007 Dubai Airshow


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## muse

I don't know any better however; a dedicated CAS JF-17 may also see a different wing design?


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## Zarbe Momin

We should stick with JF-17 project and try to improve it. JH-7 or its version was offered to pakistan. But i think PAF is interested in multirole fighters like JF-17, J-10 and F-16 block 52. It is also one of the reasons that they neglected JAS-39 because it was air superiority fighter not completely multirole figheter.


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## SBD-3

Last Updated : June 24, 2002

China's Jian-12 or J-12 (F-12 for foreign markets) is 5th generation multirole jet due to fly by 2012 and enter service by 2015. It has been codenamed XXJ by US's Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI). J-12 is destined to be China's top-end fighter along with the Su-30MKK when it will be introduced.(other crap purposefully left)

J-12 / XXJ 5th Generation multirole fighter - China
good news for PAF


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## Munir

hasnain0099 said:


> J-12 / XXJ 5th Generation multirole fighter - China
> good news for PAF



That link is totally crap info...


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## Arsalan

Munir said:


> That link is totally crap info...





regards


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## SBD-3

hay guys i was visiting MKI manufacturer and they have new upgraded birds to show which are futher upgaded than MKI here s one

IRKUT Corporation :: Manufacturing :: Manufacturing


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## Arsalan

hj786 said:


> They are already developing the twin-seat model which will be turned into a dedicated ground attack model, according to International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Chinese Dimensions of the 2007 Dubai Airshow




thats more like it!

that is what we need to do at the time! no more projects, stick to JF17, get some J10 and if possible start cooperation in chines fifth generation plane project! going for stuff of different kind wont be a wise choice keeping in view the economic crunch we are facing 

but 

at the same time on other hand the golabal economic recession may be the best time to get hand onto anything as everyone is searching for buyers to generate some money for themselves! so all in all the situation is quite confusing  so let us leave the decesion for the military top brass, they for sure have better insight and planes for the situation!!

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> thats more like it!
> 
> that is what we need to do at the time! no more projects, stick to JF17, get some J10 and if possible start cooperation in chines fifth generation plane project!
> regards!



well do you really think that collaboration with china over 5th gen fighter will be like Thunder 250 Million USDs? Hell no! 5th gen is usually a three digit billion USDs project we atleast should have 15-20 Blns in our coffers if we are to become partners.And i dont know why we a so optimistic about PAF acquiring JXX.Will China handover a precious plane to friend like Pakistan? look at US's raptor case with Japan


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> well do you really think that collaboration with china over 5th gen fighter will be like Thunder 250 Million USDs? Hell no! 5th gen is usually a three digit billion USDs project we atleast should have 15-20 Blns in our coffers if we are to become partners.And i dont know why we a so optimistic about PAF acquiring JXX.Will China handover a precious plane to friend like Pakistan? look at US's raptor case with Japan



china do always ofeer us the best they have, provided we are willing to buy them, there is not any case of chines declining to give something to pakistan just fo technology issues! the FC20, is a good example. even the F7 PGs came when china was operating them as F7 and the PGs were heavily modified!
as for the money issue we will have to join it one day or the other as indian may be getting hands on to some in 15 to 20 years time. if ToT of joint production is costly we can opt for a squadron or two and buy them from chines as they will be good enough for us!
the thing is that it is totally true that for the time being we must stick o JF17 and J10 projects but if we look beyond 2020 we will have to get some fifth generation planes!

regards!


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## Arsalan

respected friend Mr. *hasnain0099*, also i guess that you have coated the price tag from the raptor project but we know that chines are always a cheaper option also they have examples of raptor and F35 to learn from. even surely they wont get a chance to analyze these US systems but still they may have some important lessons to learn as a lot information is availabe now! i hope you will agree with this that chines are way too goog in learning from other's system, that is what the world calls *copying*!!
i hope you will agree with me on this!

anyway, regards!

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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> respected friend Mr. *hasnain0099*, also i guess that you have coated the price tag from the raptor project but we know that chines are always a cheaper option also they have examples of raptor and F35 to learn from. even surely they wont get a chance to analyze these US systems but still they may have some important lessons to learn as a lot information is availabe now! i hope you will agree with this that chines are way too goog in learning from other's system, that is what the world calls *copying*!!
> i hope you will agree with me on this!
> 
> anyway, regards!



Yap! there was a lot of buzz last days about China facing allegations from US about copying the Information about JSF but Yankees are quite smart as they kept the critical information on computers not connected to internet.I think JSF program is also very costly compare 132 Billion with 200 Billion still a lot of money! and we should not expect JXX to be "Cheap" as in accounting what we call fix cost allocation and in economics, economies of scale. due to limited demand, JXX will not be produced in numbers like JF or other planes so fixed cost will not speard lifting the per unit price of the same i guess it would be about 150~175 millions a piece


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## Tempest II

hasnain0099 said:


> Yap! there was a lot of buzz last days about China facing allegations from US about copying the Information about JSF but Yankees are quite smart as they kept the critical information on computers not connected to internet.I think JSF program is also very costly compare 132 Billion with 200 Billion still a lot of money! and we should not expect JXX to be "Cheap" as in accounting what we call fix cost allocation and in economics, economies of scale. due to limited demand, JXX will not be produced in numbers like JF or other planes so fixed cost will not speard lifting the per unit price of the same i guess it would be about 150~175 millions a piece



I believe over 4,400 F-16 have been produced for the 70s and they still cost more that the J-10 with less than 200 flying. Economies os scale when it comes to importing Western military equipment compared to Chinese I don't think that applies. Yes, Chinese equipment would be even cheaper if they are produced in the same volume, but even the fewer numbers still come out cheaper than American.


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## SBD-3

Tempest II said:


> I believe over 4,400 F-16 have been produced for the 70s and they still cost more that the J-10 with less than 200 flying. Economies os scale when it comes to importing Western military equipment compared to Chinese I don't think that applies. Yes, Chinese equipment would be even cheaper if they are produced in the same volume, but even the fewer numbers still come out cheaper than American.



there are 2 factors
1) Falcon Program is not the same program that was initiated years back in 80s the falcons have gradually improved so R&D is on continious bases so one should expect the price tag to be higher.
2) The case with cheap tech is that when it comes to china, most of the tech is off the shelf and implemented from other programs so as R&D is major cost contributor toward development projects Chinese are able to keep this component down significantly how can you expect to produce a world class AC like thunder in only 500 Mln USDs? Where as in case of western scenario the projects are initiated AB initio rising the cost significantly  (any corrections and counter views will be highly appriciated)


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## Tempest II

hasnain0099 said:


> there are 2 factors
> 1) Falcon Program is not the same program that was initiated years back in 80s the falcons have gradually improved so R&D is on continious bases so one should expect the price tag to be higher.
> 2) The case with cheap tech is that when it comes to china, most of the tech is off the shelf and implemented from other programs so as R&D is major cost contributor toward development projects Chinese are able to keep this component down significantly how can you expect to produce a world class AC like thunder in only 500 Mln USDs? Where as in case of western scenario the projects are initiated AB initio rising the cost significantly  (any corrections and counter views will be highly appriciated)



I understand the F-16 has been improving by further developement as to be expected. However, this R&D has bee increamental - therefore the R&D focused on the F-16, say in the last 10 years, has not been as much as that on the J-10. I.e. there has been more in place for the F-16 in the past decade than the J-10 - including production lines and certified supplier networks. However, because thing in the US are more expensive, the F-16 is still expensive.

Yes, the J-10 will borrow from technologies already developed for those that came before it, i.e. F-16. The same applies to the Chinese J-XX. it will leverage on available technologies they can access on US programs.

The bottom line is the Chinese equivalent will be cheaper.


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> Yap! there was a lot of buzz last days about China facing allegations from US about copying the Information about JSF but Yankees are quite smart as they kept the critical information on computers not connected to internet.I think JSF program is also very costly compare 132 Billion with 200 Billion still a lot of money! and we should not expect JXX to be "Cheap" as in accounting what we call fix cost allocation and in economics, economies of scale. due to limited demand, JXX will not be produced in numbers like JF or other planes so fixed cost will not speard lifting the per unit price of the same i guess it would be about 150~175 millions a piece



yes that right!
still chines can bring down the price by huge amounts, rather it is better to say that they will bring it down by an unbeleivable amount for many reasons:
firstly the chines are always cheaper than rest of the world because on many reasons which includes less labour cost and good technology at home!
secondly the chines will fancy on lot and lot of things that the US had to find out by research and burning billions of dollars! a simplest thing that comes to mind of a common person like me is that the chines do not have to research on the design of vertical tail, they know at what angle they will have the minimum RCS! also what should be shape of nose and thata the internal bay will significantly redice radar signature! all this stuff was researched by US and cost them billions! 
these are the points that immediately come to an ordinary persons mind so you can tink of what the Chines scientists and engineers will be able to extract fromthe F22 and F35!!

Regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> yes that right!
> still chines can bring down the price by huge amounts, rather it is better to say that they will bring it down by an unbeleivable amount for many reasons:
> firstly the chines are always cheaper than rest of the world because on many reasons which includes less labour cost and good technology at home!
> secondly the chines will fancy on lot and lot of things that the US had to find out by research and burning billions of dollars! a simplest thing that comes to mind of a common person like me is that the chines do not have to research on the design of vertical tail, they know at what angle they will have the minimum RCS! also what should be shape of nose and thata the internal bay will significantly redice radar signature! all this stuff was researched by US and cost them billions!
> these are the points that immediately come to an ordinary persons mind so you can tink of what the Chines scientists and engineers will be able to extract fromthe F22 and F35!!
> 
> Regards!



well dear brother that is debatable.The chinese were able to keep the cost down in pricious programs due to the fact that they purchased the design and didnt do much RD by it self on those (that no ways means no RD) look ar Q-5 J-7 JF J-10 and J-11 all are derivatives (differences of openion will be welcomed) dont know much about FBC-1 so they are not building them from scratches and the reason that JSF and JXX will be relativly cheaper is the fact the JSF borrowed from Raptor and JXX will borrow a lot of its structure from J-10 or J-9.About second para well it seems very easy and very simple the way you described it but it is not just consider how long raptor has been there almost all the current fighters (EF,Rafael,Giffon,Mig-35) were produced after F-22 if every thing was simple wh didnt all these had tails like F-22? why didnt they had internal wepons bay? Its not that simple it seems to be and chinese engneers would be able to sort out the tech meaningfully if and only if they somhow get their hands on JSF or Rap which seems next to impossible


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> well dear brother that is debatable.The chinese were able to keep the cost down in pricious programs due to the fact that they purchased the design and didnt do much RD by it self on those (that no ways means no RD) look ar Q-5 J-7 JF J-10 and J-11 all are derivatives (differences of openion will be welcomed) dont know much about FBC-1 so they are not building them from scratches and the reason that JSF and JXX will be relativly cheaper is the fact the JSF borrowed from Raptor and JXX will borrow a lot of its structure from J-10 or J-9.About second para well it seems very easy and very simple the way you described it but it is not just consider how long raptor has been there almost all the current fighters (EF,Rafael,Giffon,Mig-35) were produced after F-22 if every thing was simple wh didnt all these had tails like F-22? why didnt they had internal wepons bay? Its not that simple it seems to be and chinese engneers would be able to sort out the tech meaningfully if and only if they somhow get their hands on JSF or Rap which seems next to impossible



well i agree with you dear but just want to add that if a non professional can find all that stuff the professional scientists and engineers are sure going to extract lot lot more things!
anyway let us get back to the topic, for the time being we will have to stick to JF and FC projetcs!

regards!


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## hazi

is the j-10 going to be used on any of the chinese aicraft carriers and if so how is it going to compare with the russian su-33 which has got folding wings, arrester hook, a reinforced structure, and other modifications that help it deal with carrier operations and landings. 

i would be really glad if you could answer my question


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## SBD-3

hazi said:


> is the j-10 going to be used on any of the chinese aicraft carriers and if so how is it going to compare with the russian su-33 which has got folding wings, arrester hook, a reinforced structure, and other modifications that help it deal with carrier operations and landings.
> 
> i would be really glad if you could answer my question



Yap it is still under development with little details publicized


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## Manticore

hazi said:


> is the j-10 going to be used on any of the chinese aicraft carriers and if so how is it going to compare with the russian su-33 which has got folding wings, arrester hook, a reinforced structure, and other modifications that help it deal with carrier operations and landings.
> 
> i would be really glad if you could answer my question



A carrier based J-10 has also been reported but this is in direct competition with the J-13, a dedicated 4.5++ carrier fighter with a conventional layout similar to the F/A-18 Super Hornets. 

J-10C with twin engines around the size of RD-33s and incorporating similar features to the J-10B has arrived. This is supposedly a direct competitor to the Eurofighter and has the same layout - twin engined canard delta with a single tail. The PLAAF will have to decide whether to go with the J-10B or the J-10C at some point. Pakistan will not go for the J-10C as the twin engines do not comply with their doctrine of single-engined fighters and with the AFFDP-2019. 
Grande Strategy: The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging
j10 comparison table
View attachment 3768

j13
View attachment 3766

i would love to see something like this from china 
View attachment 3770


once our jf17 manufacturing capability is produced, then we would definately go for inhouse production of 100+j10s, if no other 4.5++ fighter is available


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## mean_bird

Another picture of J-10b

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## hazi

do the j-10s come with ToT?
and is pakistan going to manufacture any part of the j-10s in pakistan?


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## Owais

hazi said:


> do the j-10s come with ToT?
> and is pakistan going to manufacture any part of the j-10s in pakistan?



there is no need for full TOT as we are not getting it in huge numbers. TOT is economically feasible when you are getting 150+ jets


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## hazi

but is pakistan going to manufacture any of the parts


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## SBD-3

hazi said:


> but is pakistan going to manufacture any of the parts



I Think we ll end up manufacturing FC-20 bcause
1)If we were offered grippen and rafael PAF refused them Hint Hint!
2)FC-20 share a lot with JF-17
3)With JXX ready in a few years China will switch over to JXX with FC-20 being handed over to Pakistan

any one with other views


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## Munir

Just inside info...

Gripen is pushed out of India competition by the US. Pentagon ordered Israeli forms not to join Gripen NG_I(ndia) so the Indians will have less compaibility with MKI electronics... I be NG will be offered to Pakistan as soon as Saab understands the impact...


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## Manticore

Munir said:


> Just inside info...
> 
> Gripen is pushed out of India competition by the US. Pentagon ordered Israeli forms not to join Gripen NG_I(ndia) so the Indians will have less compaibility with MKI electronics... I be NG will be offered to Pakistan as soon as Saab understands the impact...



wouldnt paf be more interested in the swedish avionics rather than the plane if french deal does not go through for fc20 and jf17 block2?


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## Munir

I think that part is already indirectly covered by getting Saab2000. They will link every plane in the future so in he end you talk about avionic set...


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## SBD-3

ANTIBODY said:


> wouldnt paf be more interested in the swedish avionics rather than the plane if french deal does not go through for fc20 and jf17 block2?


Well PAF is preety hopeful about french deal cuz here well get the avionics of rafael and M88 engine for not only JFs but also FCs and it will greatly help PAF with knowledge and designing in its own advanced engines


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## hj786

hasnain0099 said:


> I Think we ll end up manufacturing FC-20 bcause
> 1)If we were offered grippen and rafael PAF refused them Hint Hint!
> *2)FC-20 share a lot with JF-17*
> 3)With JXX ready in a few years China will switch over to JXX with FC-20 being handed over to Pakistan
> 
> any one with other views



FC-20 will share *NOTHING* with JF-17 except MAYBE a few circuit boards and antennae. 
Take one single look at J-10 and JF-17, what can they possibly have in common except some minor avionics? Who says J-XX will be ready in a few years?


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## PAFAce

hj786 said:


> FC-20 will share *NOTHING* with JF-17 except MAYBE a few circuit boards and antennae.
> Take one single look at J-10 and JF-17, what can they possibly have in common except some minor avionics? Who says J-XX will be ready in a few years?


hj786, while I won't comment on how much commonality the FC-20 and JF-17 will have (due to lack of sufficient in-depth knowledge of either), I will say that the appearance of two aircraft can be vastly different, and yet there could be lots of commonality. I believe Hasnain was basing his arguments on he fact that both aircraft were designed by Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation. As in the case of, say, the F-16 and the F-35 or the F-35 and the F-22, there is bound to be some commonality in the designs.

For example, you'd be amazed at how much these big corporations (LM, Boeing, L3, Honeywell etc.) re-use software code. The theory is, if it ain't broken, don't fix it, and it saves them precious manpower and man hours for designing, developing and testing. The same is true for certain electrical elements as well, such as the Environment Control, Auxiliary Power Unit etc. There has got to be some commonality between the two, even if unintentional. However, I don't believe that this will be enough to merit a production line in Pakistan. We simply don't need a production line for the FC-20 (not immediately, at least), unless we suddenly find loads of cash lying around.

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## Arsalan

also to add i dont think taht we wil be able to run so many projects at home all at one time!

we are producing JF, SAB and F16 induction will also increase the work load and therefore running a new project with limited resources will not be possible! that is what i think!
anyhow i dont think it is a case that as we are only inductiong 36 of them so we wont produce them at home because the intial order of 36 is just an evaluation order and the number can certainly go up to 80 - 90 planes!

regards!


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## Ghazy

Maybe number exceeds from 80-90 to around 120-130 depending upon Indian MMRCA.


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## mean_bird

ANTIBODY said:


> wouldnt paf be more interested in the swedish avionics rather than the plane if french deal does not go through for fc20 and jf17 block2?





hasnain0099 said:


> Well PAF is preety hopeful about french deal cuz here well get the avionics of rafael and M88 engine for not only JFs but also FCs and it will greatly help PAF with knowledge and designing in its own advanced engines



I would be surprised if there are french/western equipments on FC-20. I think its going to be a purely Chinese one. 



hj786 said:


> FC-20 will share *NOTHING* with JF-17 except MAYBE a few circuit boards and antennae.
> Take one single look at J-10 and JF-17, what can they possibly have in common except some minor avionics? Who says J-XX will be ready in a few years?



Lets see- the radars are similar, KLJ-7 is a derivative of KLJ-10. The FBW system, sensors and instruments, etc of current J-10 and JF-17 are similar. The fire similar weapons so quite a bit is similar. Besides, maintenance is much more concerned about things we cannot see i.e those thousands of parts that make up a plane. They might look so different externally, but what we see externally aint the real serviceability issue. 

Let's see what the FC-20 will offer. Its still a bit far away to speculate anything at this stage.

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## a1b2c145

hj786 said:


> FC-20 will share *NOTHING* with JF-17 except MAYBE a few circuit boards and antennae.
> Take one single look at J-10 and JF-17, what can they possibly have in common except some minor avionics? Who says J-XX will be ready in a few years?



Somebody say that JF-17 LOOKS like a composition of F-16, F-18 and F-7.
So J10B changing from J10A is more like a composition of J10A,J11B and F-16,am i right?
Regards


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## TOPGUN

a1b2c145 said:


> Somebody say that JF-17 LOOKS like a composition of F-16, F-18 and F-7.
> So J10B changing from J10A is more like a composition of J10A,J11B and F-16,am i right?
> Regards



Well offcourse j-10a and also looks like f-16 a bit!


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## SBD-3

hj786 said:


> FC-20 will share *NOTHING* what can they possibly have in common except some minor avionics? Who says J-XX will be ready in a few years?



*China's Jian-12 or J-12 (F-12 for foreign markets) is 5th generation multirole jet due to fly by 2012 and enter service by 2015. It has been codenamed XXJ by US's Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI). J-12 is destined to be China's top-end fighter along with the Su-30MKK when it will be introduced.*

For now, China's top-end plane remains J-10, which is basically an Israeli airframe with Russian engines. It is still under development and it is expected that Russian content will increase extensively as the development progresses.

China has developed close ties with Russia's aerospace industry and has license produced many fighters including MiG-21 and Su-27. Their FC-1/Super 7 design is based on MiG-33 (which was rejected by Soviet Air Force). Earlier Chinese planes are the Q-5 Fantan, J-8 Finback and FBC-1. The FBC-1 was their latest attempt, and was'nt successful - the Su-27 filled in for it. Considering their track record, it may well be possible that the J-12 ends up being a re-christened MiG MFI. MAPO-MIG is already involved in the J-10 program. MFI is one of the world's 5th generation designs. However, considering the project's timeframe, it seems unlikely (they would'nt need 15 years to do this).


MiG's MFI project, (project 1.42) was first unveiled to the public in 1999. The production of this promising design unforunately was cancelled due to lack of funds.



Not much is known about J-12 right now - the aircraft is still going through initial work. The project is at is where the USAF ATF (Advanced Tactical Fighter) Program, which lead to the F-22A, was in ~1983. Virtually everything is still wide open. Sources within combat aircraft manufacturer Chengdu confirm that it is looking at a twin-engined design and that they are examining both single and two crew configuration.


Stealthiness is an integral part of all new fighter designs and J-12 is no exception. The engines are most likely to be Russian with Thrust Vectoring. Stealth and thrust vectoring are two features that are a must in all aircraft being designed today. Interestingly, Chinese aircraft designers will actually perform a 'generation leap' if J-12 goes into service with PLAAF. All aircraft produced in China before (apart from licenced Su-27) have been 3rd generation aircraft. Chengdu will have to take Western/Israeli/Russian help to make J-12 truly 5th generation.

J-12's immediate rival will be India's MCA (Medium Combat Aircraft). It too is expected to be a 5th generation aircraft. While the fate of MCA is not clear, J-12 is probably under active development.

J-12 / XXJ 5th Generation multirole fighter - China

and to talk about a few circuits here are some of the many commonalites that i have been able to get out
1)BM/KG300G electronic counter-measures pod 
2)KZ900 (electronic reconnaissance) pod.
3)infra-red search and track (IRST).
4)The radar is believed to be designed by the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronic Technology (NRIET), designated KLJ-10 and a smaller variant is claimed to be installed on the JF-17 light-weight fighter (KLJ-7)
5)helmet-mounted display (HMD) 
6)ejection seat which is zero-zero capable
7) "hands on throttle and stick" (HOTAS) 
8)fly-by-wire flight control system 
9) In a rather unusual agreement, the single seat version of the J-10 and the twin seat version of J-10 were designed by two different general designers; Song Wencong for the single seat version and Yang Wei (&#26472;&#20255 for the twin seat version, *also the general designer of the JF-17 light-weight fighter*
10)DSI intake
11)ECM Housing
12)WS-10A (future engine for both ACs) with WS-13 also being a possibility
13) FILAT (Forward-looking Infra-red Laser Attack Targeting)
a few things that i was able to point out more than few circuits (No Offence Intended)


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## wangrong

hasnain0099@:
*China's Jian-12 or J-12 (F-12 for foreign markets) is 5th generation multirole jet *due to fly by 2012 and enter service by 2015. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
you are wrong.China's Jian-12 is not 5th generation multirole jet.they are in museum now.

















1969


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## SBD-3

wangrong said:


> hasnain0099@:
> *China's Jian-12 or J-12 (F-12 for foreign markets) is 5th generation multirole jet *due to fly by 2012 and enter service by 2015.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> you are wrong.China's Jian-12 is not 5th generation multirole jet.they are in museum now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1969



Accept my appologies lets call it JXX the word J-12 might be used due to the fact that still the exact desgination is missing some call it J-13 and some J-14.I would be more appriciative if you would provide any thing on the real issue i.e. the induction date and recent developments in the program.J-12 is not my personal designation it is used in the post the link is also attached for your convenience


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## Arsalan

well the chines fifth generation fighter plane project is recognized as JXX or XXJ, all the designations like J12, J13 or so on are the rumored possible designation the plane will be given once it is developed and becomesa reality! at the moment it is under development though no one know at what stage. the russians have reported the chines fifth generatio programme ahead of there own project!

anyway to avoid confusion we must call it JXX! 
but guys there are still years before we must really start discussing the JXX, for now it is thime of J10 and FC20!

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well the chines fifth generation fighter plane project is recognized as JXX or XXJ, all the designations like J12, J13 or so on are the rumored possible designation the plane will be given once it is developed and becomesa reality! at the moment it is under development though no one know at what stage. the russians have reported the chines fifth generatio programme ahead of there own project!
> 
> anyway to avoid confusion we must call it JXX!
> but guys there are still years before we must really start discussing the JXX, for now it is thime of J10 and FC20!
> 
> regards!



but still makes an interesting point
JXX ready in 2015
PAF's FC-20 Taking flight in 2015
I think PAF is gonna get this bird ToT especially with MCRA compitition yielding 128 more fighters for IAF any other comments? 
Chinese are ahead here are some intereting snaps for you


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## ironman

*FC-20 M-MRCA Emerges​*

China&#8217;s Sichuan-based Chengdu Aerospace Corp (CAC) and its affiliated 611 Institute has begun a hectic but structured flight-test programme for the FC-20 medium multi-role combat aircraft (M-MRCA), whose launch export customer is the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). The PAF has an initial requirement for 36 single-seaters and four tandem-seat operational conversion trainers, and envisages a total requirement for 80 FC-20s distributed among four squadrons.

The first single-seat FC-20 prototype was rolled out by CAC last December and it made its maiden flight last March. Derived from the CAC-built J-10A Vigorous Dragon M-MRCA, the FC-20 incorporates an under-nose modified lightweight air inlet, redesigned vertical tailfin, strengthened underwing inner pylons designed for carrying standoff precision-guided munitions (PGM) like the glide kit-equipped LS-6, nose-mounted infra-red search-and-track (IRST) system, a glass cockpit equipped with a holographic wide-angle heads-up display (HUD), a pair of inverted-gull wings (with the inner upper portion extending slightly downward, while the outer portion extending flat), a fixed in-flight refuelling probe, a large vertical tail, twin ventral stabilisers for providing greater stability at high angles of attack, and a single AL-31FN-M1 turbofan engine rated at 132.4kN thrust with afterburning. In August 2005 China had inked a USD 300 million contract with Russia&#8217;s Rosoboronexport State Corp to acquire initial 100 such engines. The entire R&D phase of the FC-20 is being carried out under the oversight of China&#8217;s state-owned China Aviation Industry Corp (AVIC).

The FC-20 will be able to carry 4.5 tonnes of weapons payload, and will come equipped with 11 hardpoints for carrying a wide range of air combat missiles (both within-visual-range and beyond-visual-range) and PGMs. The FC-20&#8217;s performance parameters include a maximum combat radius of 2,540km (1,370nm) in a hi-lo-hi mission profile, or of 1,310km (710nm) in a lo-lo-lo mission profile when carrying a 1,810kg (4,000lb) weapons payload.

The M-MRCA will have an empty weight of 9,750kg, maximum takeoff weight of 19,277kg, internal fuel capacity of 4,500kg, maximum speed of Mach 2 at high altitude and Mach 1.2 at sea level, takeoff run of 500 metres, combat radius of 1,100km, and a service ceiling of 18,000 metres. The FC-20 has a wingspan of 8.78 metres, overall length of 14.57 metres, height of 4.78 metres, and a gross wing area of 33.1 square metres. The airframe features high-quality welding, but is overwhelmingly of metallic construction, with composites accounting for only 12 per cent of the fuselage area.

*CAC and its affiliated 611 Institute are now preparing to roll-out a tandem-seat deep interdictor variant of the FC-20, which, like the single-seater, will be equipped with a laser target acquisition/designation pod, laser-/GPS-guided PGMs, as well as PL-9C within-visual-range and PL-12 beyond-visual-range air combat missiles built by the Luoyang Opto-Electro Technology Development Centre. Design of this variant of the FC-20 is derived from the J-10B operational conversion trainer that made its maiden flight on 26 December 2003.*

*The FC-20&#8217;s tandem-seat variant will feature a stretched forward fuselage and a single-piece bubble canopy. Its dorsal spine will be enlarged to accommodate those avionics displaced by the rear cockpit. The PAF is widely expected to equip its FC-20s with the SELEX Galileo-built X-band Vixen 500E airborne active phased-array fire-control radar. The glass cockpit avionics suite will includes a wide-angle holographic HUD with up-front control panel and a video camera, twin monochrome AMLCD-based multifunction displays, a single colour AMLCD head-down display, infra-red sensors for a helmet-mounted sight, hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) controls, ring-laser-gyro-based inertial navigation system, air data computer, ARW-9101A radar warning receiver, Type 634 digital quadruplex fly-by-wire flight control system using a MIL-STD-1553B digital data bus, and a digital fuel management system and stores management system.

The FC-20&#8217;s compound delta-wing configuration will offer two important aerodynamic qualities. The swept leading edge of the wing will stay ahead of the shock-wave generated by the FC-20&#8217;s nose during supersonic flight, thus making the compound delta-wing a very efficient aerodynamic wing shape for supersonic flight. The leading edge of compound delta-wing will also generate a massive vortex that will attach itself to the upper surface of the wing during high angle-of-attack (AoA) manoeuvres, resulting in very high stall points.*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Munir

Ironman,

I am still not 100&#37; sure that PAF will get FC20. The conract still talks about J10A order. Bu on the other hand why wait till 2014 if we know hat J10A is outdated at this moment. The plane is impressive MRCA. Range could be better but fine for PAF.


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## SBD-3

Munir said:


> Ironman,
> 
> I am still not 100&#37; sure that PAF will get FC20. The conract still talks about J10A order. Bu on the other hand why wait till 2014 if we know hat J10A is outdated at this moment. The plane is impressive MRCA. Range could be better but fine for PAF.



C'mon sir FC-20 is PAF Customized Plane


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## wangrong

hasnain0099 said:


> C'mon sir FC-20 is PAF Customized Plane



FC18?
FC19?


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## owais.usmani

hasnain0099 said:


> but still makes an interesting point
> JXX ready in 2015
> PAF's FC-20 Taking flight in 2015
> I think PAF is gonna get this bird ToT especially with MCRA compitition yielding 128 more fighters for IAF any other comments?
> Chinese are ahead here are some intereting snaps for you



First is just a fanboy CGI circulating on the internet for quite some time;

second is a fake photoshop using images of F-22 raptor;

third is a real photo of a F-22 raptor being painted at the Lookheed Martin Fort Worth plant;

fourth one.....hmmmm....I don't know, maybe another CGI.


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## SBD-3

owais.usmani said:


> First is just a fanboy CGI circulating on the internet for quite some time;
> 
> second is a fake photoshop using images of F-22 raptor;
> 
> third is a real photo of a F-22 raptor being painted at the Lookheed Martin Fort Worth plant;
> 
> fourth one.....hmmmm....I don't know, maybe another CGI.



Well who can tell but the looks preety real though
yap the painting seems like F-22 Raptor 
but the buildings in the Flying pic seem like chinese


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## owais.usmani

hasnain0099 said:


> Well who can tell but the looks preety real though
> yap the painting seems like F-22 Raptor
> but the buildings in the Flying pic seem like chinese



is it really difficult to photoshop a picture of flying f 22 on a picture of a chinese city skyline? (in this case it is probably Beijing)

I know about these pictures because they have been posted before on this forum, pakdef.info and PDF and knowledgeable members, many of them chinese, have dissed them to be fake. 

Just my opinion, I don't think an authentic photo or sketch of the chinese 5th generation fighter program will be avalaible on the internet before 2015.


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## SBD-3

owais.usmani said:


> is it really difficult to photoshop a picture of flying f 22 on a picture of a chinese city skyline? (in this case it is probably Beijing)
> 
> I know about these pictures because they have been posted before on this forum, pakdef.info and PDF and knowledgeable members, many of them chinese, have dissed them to be fake.
> 
> Just my opinion, I don't think an authentic photo or sketch of the chinese 5th generation fighter program will be avalaible on the internet before 2015.


well there is always a diversity in views but keeping inview the article if JXX is to be inducted in 2015 then its tests should be underway now or atleast it should be in final systems design process 
well as far as simmilarity is concerned its not necessary that JXX should be a different AC in Shape.If Raptor Shape serves the purpose then why to invest in R&D of new shapes.I think Chinese are doing it this way


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## Patriot

Husnain the pics are bs.There is no such thing like JXX as of now.


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## SBD-3

well i read it some where that JXX is ahead of PAK FA so expect it early


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## owais.usmani

hasnain0099 said:


> well i read it some where that JXX is ahead of PAK FA so expect it early



I think now a chinese member is required to update you more about their JXX program.

Mr. Wangrong, will you do the honour?


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## Arsalan

i think let us keep it to J10 and FC20 for the time being, atleast on this thread! and wait till JXX project get some break through!

regards!


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## wangrong

owais.usmani said:


> I think now a chinese member is required to update you more about their JXX program.
> 
> Mr. Wangrong, will you do the honour?



2012


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## SBD-3

wangrong said:


> 2012



is it prototype development or induction


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> is it prototype development or induction



it seems that it will be, if any, a prototype! but still cant say anyting with confirmity as we have all awtched the unvieling of the J10, it was a surprise package!!

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> it seems that it will be, if any, a prototype! but still cant say anyting with confirmity as we have all awtched the unvieling of the J10, it was a surprise package!!
> 
> regards!



But i dont think if 2015 is the deadline then proto will developed in 2012 i think it should be around 2010 at max 2011


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## Arsalan

wangrong said:


> 2012



can you kindly provide us with some links to it for further study of this news!

regards!


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## wangrong

arsalanaslam123 said:


> can you kindly provide us with some links to it for further study of this news!
> 
> regards!



no news is good news.


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## SBD-3

wangrong said:


> no news is good news.



it will be decided after hearing the news


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## jawadqamar

Double post


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## jawadqamar

*FC-20 M-MRCA Emerges*


The first single-seat FC-20 prototype was rolled out by CAC last December
By Prasun K. Sengupta


Chinas Sichuan-based Chengdu Aerospace Corp (CAC) and its affiliated 611 Institute has begun a hectic but structured flight-test programme for the FC-20 medium multi-role combat aircraft (M-MRCA), whose launch export customer is the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). The PAF has an initial requirement for 36 single-seaters and four tandem-seat operational conversion trainers, and envisages a total requirement for 80 FC-20s distributed among four squadrons. 

The first single-seat FC-20 prototype was rolled out by CAC last December and it made its maiden flight last March. Derived from the CAC-built J-10A Vigorous Dragon M-MRCA, *the FC-20 incorporates an under-nose modified lightweight air inlet, redesigned vertical tailfin, strengthened underwing inner pylons designed for carrying standoff precision-guided munitions (PGM) like the glide kit-equipped LS-6, nose-mounted infra-red search-and-track (IRST) system, a glass cockpit equipped with a holographic wide-angle heads-up display (HUD), a pair of inverted-gull wings (with the inner upper portion extending slightly downward, while the outer portion extending flat), a fixed in-flight refuelling probe, a large vertical tail, twin ventral stabilisers for providing greater stability at high angles of attack, and a single AL-31FN-M1 turbofan engine rated at 132.4kN thrust with afterburning.* In August 2005 China had inked a USD 300 million contract with Russias Rosoboronexport State Corp to acquire initial 100 such engines. The entire R&D phase of the FC-20 is being carried out under the oversight of Chinas state-owned China Aviation Industry Corp (AVIC). 

The FC-20 will be able to carry 4.5 tonnes of weapons payload, and will come equipped with 11 hardpoints for carrying a wide range of air combat missiles (both within-visual-range and beyond-visual-range) and PGMs. *The FC-20s performance parameters include a maximum combat radius of 2,540km (1,370nm) in a hi-lo-hi mission profile, or of 1,310km (710nm) in a lo-lo-lo mission profile when carrying a 1,810kg (4,000lb) weapons payload. *


*The M-MRCA will have an empty weight of 9,750kg, maximum takeoff weight of 19,277kg, internal fuel capacity of 4,500kg, maximum speed of Mach 2 at high altitude and Mach 1.2 at sea level, takeoff run of 500 metres, combat radius of 1,100km, and a service ceiling of 18,000 metres. The FC-20 has a wingspan of 8.78 metres, overall length of 14.57 metres, height of 4.78 metres, and a gross wing area of 33.1 square metres.* The airframe features high-quality welding, but is overwhelmingly of metallic construction, with composites accounting for only 12 per cent of the fuselage area.

CAC and its affiliated 611 Institute are now preparing to roll-out a tandem-seat deep interdictor variant of the FC-20, which, like the single-seater, will be equipped with a laser target acquisition/designation pod, laser-/GPS-guided PGMs, as well as PL-9C within-visual-range and PL-12 beyond-visual-range air combat missiles built by the Luoyang Opto-Electro Technology Development Centre. Design of this variant of the FC-20 is derived from the J-10B operational conversion trainer that made its maiden flight on 26 December 2003. 

The FC-20s tandem-seat variant will feature a stretched forward fuselage and a single-piece bubble canopy. Its dorsal spine will be enlarged to accommodate those avionics displaced by the rear cockpit.* The PAF is widely expected to equip its FC-20s with the SELEX Galileo-built X-band Vixen 500E airborne active phased-array fire-control radar.* The glass cockpit avionics suite will includes a wide-angle holographic HUD with up-front control panel and a video camera, twin monochrome AMLCD-based multifunction displays, a single colour AMLCD head-down display, infra-red sensors for a helmet-mounted sight, hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) controls, ring-laser-gyro-based inertial navigation system, air data computer, ARW-9101A radar warning receiver, Type 634 digital quadruplex fly-by-wire flight control system using a MIL-STD-1553B digital data bus, and a digital fuel management system and stores management system. 

The FC-20s compound delta-wing configuration will offer two important aerodynamic qualities. The swept leading edge of the wing will stay ahead of the shock-wave generated by the FC-20s nose during supersonic flight, thus making the compound delta-wing a very efficient aerodynamic wing shape for supersonic flight. The leading edge of compound delta-wing will also generate a massive vortex that will attach itself to the upper surface of the wing during high angle-of-attack (AoA) manoeuvres, resulting in very high stall points.



*[Full Feature/Report] *

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## Arsalan

wangrong said:


> no news is good news.




you dont want us to have it or you yourself do not have the link!! 

regards!


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## SBD-3

seems 2nd one


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## a1b2c145

arsalanaslam123 said:


> you dont want us to have it or you yourself do not have the link!!
> 
> regards!



this are two different cockpits designed for Jxx
regards!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## SBD-3

cool man JXX is gonna be some beast


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## zavis2003

It is matter of survival PAF to have 5th generation fighter
Otherwise no body can fight with SWORDS, some advancment is needed


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## Manticore

zavis2003 said:


> It is matter of survival PAF to have 5th generation fighter
> Otherwise no body can fight with SWORDS, some advancment is needed




there are 2 kinds of 5th gen planes.. multirole f35 and air superiority f22.
in the brazilian mrca competetion, rafale was ahead of f35... even if f35 is better , its not cost effective as you have to pay double for only 15 percent increased performance.
f22 is a different matter.. pakistan cant afford its maintance let alone buy it.

if fc20 become equavalent to esa rafale and put into service by beefing their no. upto 200 and jf17 also upto 200, then the indian mrca, mca, su30 will have a tough time.

secondly along with spada2000, we should get the chinese version of s400/3oo airdefence batteries.
The HongQi-9/FD-2000 reportedly combines elements "borrowed" from Russia's S-300 and America's MIM-104 Patriot

http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes...ms/HQ-915-and-RF-9-HHQ-9-and-S-300-China.html
thirdly paf does not have the money for r&d.. let it be done by wealthy countries.. we will do re later if china doesnt already have it!


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## jalip

why we are not going for s 300/ft 2000 we need to have them for the safety of our strategic locations If its true that china is producing ft2000 we should go for it


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## SBD-3

jalip said:


> why we are not going for s 300/ft 2000 we need to have them for the safety of our strategic locations If its true that china is producing ft2000 we should go for it



*In October 2003, it was reported that China had closed a deal with its neighbor, Pakistan, to supply the latter with an unspecified number of FT-2000 missiles to counter India&#8217;s early warning capabilities*. The China-Pakistan deal followed India&#8217;s own arrangement with Israel and Russia to install three Israeli Phalcon AWACS on Ilyushin Il-76 freighter aircraft, thus giving it an airborne early warning system. According to various news sources, shortly after India announced its acquisition of the Phalcon radars, Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, the head of Pakistan&#8217;s air force, visited China and conveyed Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf&#8217;s wish to purchase an unspecified number of FT-2000s.

http://www.missilethreat.com/missiledefensesystems/id.20/system_detail.asp
http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/14206-ft-2000-pakistans-air-defense.html


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## sancho

ANTIBODY said:


> there are 2 kinds of 5th gen planes.. multirole f35 and air superiority f22.
> in the brazilian mrca competetion, rafale was ahead of f35... even if f35 is better , its not cost effective as you have to pay double for only 15 percent increased performance.
> f22 is a different matter.. pakistan cant afford its maintance let alone buy it.


In every gen the were aircrafts mainly designed for air superiority (SU27, EF, F22) and some mainly for multi role (F16, Rafale, F35), so that is nothing special. The advantage of 5. gen fighters is stealth (or very very low RCS) especially in BVR combats! They should be clearly better than any 4th or 4.5 gen fighter and I think the performance in that field will be much better than only 15%. Things will be different when they are WVR, then an EF should handle a F35 too. It will depend on things like t/w ratio, maeuverability, radar and missiles and I doubt that the F35 will be better in all this points. F22 instead has not only the advantage of stealth, but is also a very good air superiority fighter. High t/w ratio and supercruise capabilities, 3D TVC + the combination of JHMCS, latest radar and missiles gives it a clear edge in air combats.

Hard to say if J10B could be equal to Rafale, because most of the capabilities are unknown. But with two 90 KN engines (if UAE pays for it), some of the best avionics in the world and Meteor missile, Rafale will keep some advantages and the EF seems to be even better than Rafale in air combats. MKI in it's present form will surley get some trouble, but 5. gen fighters are clearly no match!


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## PAFAce

F-22 is an Air Dominance fighter. It is much more than an Air Superiority fighter. Also, multi-role fighters have not existed for long. I believe the British Tornado was the original MRCA, with the F-16 solidigyint their importance. You didn't have aircraft designed to achieve multiple goals before 4th Generation.

Secondly, strategy is based on measures and counter measures. Any threat posed by the India MRCA will be rightly countered when the time arrives. Beyond that, there is nothing much to say. No MMRCA or FC-20 for at least 4 years, and no Indian 5th gen capability for at least 10, so let's stop speculating already.


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## sadiqams

seems like a good fighter


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## Munir

Well, there is a simple thumb rule. The US had the old outdated tanks during WW2. The Germans had their tigers... Better, complex and expensive. Yet they lost cause if quantity rules then no one gives a s-h-i-t about quality...

The US an have the F22 but sofar they only invaded and terrorized weakened souvereign nations... Well, in case of China I read about stupid remarks that the only reason they will not win it cause they will have not enough planes/missiles/fuel... I think that it is a bit overestimated from something that has software crashes every 90 minutes... And I doubt whether they can use their sats and communications and whether they risk to bully someone that really can nuke their frontyard...

India and Pakistan do not need an cannot afford latest. Both have good experience and have fought more and tougher battles then the average... Both have weapons that are and will hurt the opponent.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## MastanKhan

Munir said:


> Well, there is a simple thumb rule. The US had the old outdated tanks during WW2. The Germans had their tigers... Better, complex and expensive. Yet they lost cause if quantity rules then no one gives a s-h-i-t about quality...
> 
> The US an have the F22 but sofar they only invaded and terrorized weakened souvereign nations... Well, in case of China I read about stupid remarks that the only reason they will not win it cause they will have not enough planes/missiles/fuel... I think that it is a bit overestimated from something that has software crashes every 90 minutes... And I doubt whether they can use their sats and communications and whether they risk to bully someone that really can nuke their frontyard...
> 
> India and Pakistan do not need an cannot afford latest. Both have good experience and have fought more and tougher battles then the average... Both have weapons that are and will hurt the opponent.






Hi,


Wish it was as simple as that---!!!


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## SBD-3

Munir said:


> India and Pakistan do not need an cannot afford latest. Both have good experience and have fought more and tougher battles then the average... Both have weapons that are and will hurt the opponent.



Well untill we have arms race b/w the countries expect every thins


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## sancho

Munir said:


> Well, there is a simple thumb rule. The US had the old outdated tanks during WW2. The Germans had their tigers... Better, complex and expensive. Yet they lost cause if quantity rules then no one gives a s-h-i-t about quality...


But where is the advantage of quantity if you can't see (detect) your opponent? He can bring himself in the better position and will always have the first shot, so even a smaller number of F22 can take out a larger number of J10 right?


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## Munir

sancho said:


> But where is the advantage of quantity if you can't see (detect) your opponent? He can bring himself in the better position and will always have the first shot, so even a smaller number of F22 can take out a larger number of J10 right?



Well, the idea is that you can see if you have the numbers... Right? The plane is not invisible nor cloaking... If it enters wvr then it is as good as non stealth with same weapons or size... And there are ways to get into WVR. But since I do not want to share everything I provide only known info to you. 

In vietnam era they had the wheel... They had topcover... They had some other tactics. Now, they have more. Why do you think they suddenly add IRIS on almost every plane?


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## Gucci Juice

what i dont understand is why everyone here says the j-10b is comparable to the f-16, ef, and rafael. it doesn't make any sense

the f-16, ef, and rafael all weigh similar to the j-10 +-1000 lbs, however ALL of them have more thrust, giving them more power, and a higher altitude, more weapons load, and most importantly better wvr performance compared to the j-10b.

and as for the 3d tvc j-10 is supposed to have, i highly doubt it for a few reasons

1. its expensive
2. it costs a lot more to maintain

and the aesa may not even be an aesa but a pesa since china wont possess aesa technology of its own for another 10 years by my estimate.

and by the time the j-10b actually does come in 2015 the rafael will have 90 kn engines with tvc, the ef will have tvc, and the f-16 will be replaced by the f-35 not to mention the electronics will have advanced another 5 years.

and the j-10b being comparable to the mki is just a dream, why?

1. the j-10b's engines do not provide it enough power for its radar to have same range as mki
2. the mki's fuel load is way way higher allowing more endurance in wvr
3. the mki carres way more stuff
4. the mki has more room for upgrades/more ew equipment
5. the mki has higher tvr and more performance
6. by 2015 the mki will have supercruise, aesa, and reduced rcs and this has been comfirmed.


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## Munir

Yep, and by 2015 you will have 500 LCA's... Dream on Gucciboy.


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## maverick2009

Munir. 

The statement re SU30MKI upgrade is true. 

The Indians with Russian help are already working on RCS reduction and the IBRIS AESA will inducted into mki plus new ELECTRONICS

The russians/ indians are calling this " Smart skin " 

The one thing i cannot confirm how low the RCS will become. 

This news is being reported from PARIS AIR SHOW SEE hyperlink below 

Developing the &#8216;Smart Skin&#8217; concept for Su-30MKI - Military Photos


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## Munir

The same discussion about MKI being stealthier is on SDF... And I posted the intake copied from BRF... And you know what? It is impossible to make that stealthier...

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## SBD-3

But Indian can do any thing if they can compare LCA with F-22 then any thing is possible

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## Jako

hasnain0099 said:


> But Indian can do any thing if they can compare LCA with F-22 then any thing is possible



yeah right.....and suddenly j10 disappears from the thread.......wait a day or so,and jf17,mig29,jaguars,f35,rafale etc would be dumped in it as well!


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## Munir

Well, I have to agree with that some people tend to believe that LCA is getting only overclassed by f22. Let us forget those stories and move on. I think we have to wait to see first pics with real BVR's on both (jf17/LCA) planes...


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## SBD-3

ya moving with the spirit
munir bahi do you have ny news on navalized version of Thunder there re roumers about it also its intended customers and utility
thanks a million


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## MZUBAIR

Hai, wt abt the cost of J-10B.
Did Pakistan already paid for that.

I know JF-17 is on installments.


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## Gucci Juice

Munir u are right about design change u cant change the design but u can add new paint or composites to reduce rcs and also add a jammer reducing it further. And vy 2015 it will be in service for 15 plus years and due for upgrade which will include thpse things and the proof for this is that two mkis were sent to irkut to undergo upgrades to fire brahmos but itll take two years thats too long for a simple thing like that


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## SBD-3

MZUBAIR said:


> Hai, wt abt the cost of J-10B.
> Did Pakistan already paid for that.
> 
> I know JF-17 is on installments.



41Millians USD fly away


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## Munir

Gucci Juice said:


> Munir u are right about design change u cant change the design but u can add new paint or composites to reduce rcs and also add a jammer reducing it further. And vy 2015 it will be in service for 15 plus years and due for upgrade which will include thpse things and the proof for this is that two mkis were sent to irkut to undergo upgrades to fire brahmos but itll take two years thats too long for a simple thing like that



Composites do not decrease RCS. I think that it is something written by someone who hardly understands radar principles. If you add composites and the radar passes through then you have a bigger problem cause everything behind the composites needs to be redesigned in a very inefficient way to reduce RCS... It is all about refelction directions and changes in curves.

About RAM... Well. I wish you luck in adding ram on engine blades...  Or radar dish... Or deflectors or airflow mechanics...


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## gambit

Munir said:


> *Composites do not decrease RCS.* I think that it is something written by someone who hardly understands radar principles. If you add composites and the radar passes through then you have a bigger problem cause everything behind the composites needs to be redesigned in a very inefficient way to reduce RCS... It is all about refelction directions and changes in curves.
> 
> About RAM... Well. I wish you luck in adding ram on engine blades...  Or radar dish... Or deflectors or airflow mechanics...


I will correct that a bit. Composites fall under the classification materials and materials do have a direct effect on the total RCS value of a body. Radar absorbent materials (RAM) are essentially composites. The primary consideration for an RCS value is body shaping but also because different materials do have slightly different radar absorbent capabilities, materials can and do either add or decrease to that value.

An FYI -- We detect birds by their beaks more than by their bodies. Feathers are more radar absorbent than people think, and the bird's roundedness are natural radar behavior influence. The easiest birds to detect are those with great big honkers like pelicans.

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## Arsalan

gambit said:


> I will correct that a bit. Composites fall under the classification materials and materials do have a direct effect on the total RCS value of a body. Radar absorbent materials (RAM) are essentially composites. The primary consideration for an RCS value is body shaping but also because different materials do have slightly different radar absorbent capabilities, materials can and do either add or decrease to that value.
> 
> An FYI -- We detect birds by their beaks more than by their bodies. Feathers are more radar absorbent than people think, and the bird's roundedness are natural radar behavior influence. The easiest birds to detect are those with great big honkers like pelicans.



sir perhaps it can be said from your post that:

1. the nose or the tip of the plane is a key factor of RCS
2. using better radar absorbrnt material and stealthier design of the nose can add alot good to the planes stealth feature.

can you kindly clarify the confusion or have i got it right!

regards!


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## sancho

Munir said:


> Well, the idea is that you can see if you have the numbers... Right? The plane is not invisible nor cloaking... If it enters wvr then it is as good as non stealth with same weapons or size... And there are ways to get into WVR. But since I do not want to share everything I provide only known info to you.


You can see if you have the numbers? It is invisible in BVR and even WVR how should a J10 counter the better t/w ratio, JHMCS and AI9X?


Munir said:


> In vietnam era they had the wheel... They had topcover... They had some other tactics. Now, they have more. Why do you think they suddenly add IRIS on almost every plane?


Are we still talking about J10 engaging 5. gen fighter?


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## gambit

arsalanaslam123 said:


> sir perhaps it can be said from your post that:
> 
> 1. the nose or the tip of the plane is a key factor of RCS
> 2. using better radar absorbrnt material and stealthier design of the nose can add alot good to the planes stealth feature.
> 
> can you kindly clarify the confusion or have i got it right!
> 
> regards!


The frontal aspect, or 'nose on' view, of *ANY* aircraft has the lowest RCS value. Overall, the entire aircraft's RCS value is an average from all aspects: front, top, bottom, sides and rear. So it is incorrect that the 'nose on' view is a key factor of RCS. The main reason why RAM is installed on leading edges is because the attacking aircraft is heading straight for the radar, or whatever it is that the radar is tasked defending.

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## gambit

> Munir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there is a simple thumb rule. The US had the old outdated tanks during WW2. The Germans had their tigers... Better, complex and expensive. Yet they lost cause if quantity rules then no one gives a s-h-i-t about quality...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sancho said:
> 
> 
> 
> But where is the advantage of quantity if you can't see (detect) your opponent? He can bring himself in the better position and will always have the first shot, so even a smaller number of F22 can take out a larger number of J10 right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Munir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, *the idea is that you can see if you have the numbers... Right?* The plane is not invisible nor cloaking... If it enters wvr then it is as good as non stealth with same weapons or size... And there are ways to get into WVR. But since I do not want to share everything I provide only known info to you.
> 
> In vietnam era they had the wheel... They had topcover... They had some other tactics. Now, they have more. Why do you think they suddenly add IRIS on almost every plane?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

That is not a very convincing argument in favor of quantity over quality. Tanks cannot reduce their visibility by manipulating visible spectrum eletromagnetic waves impacting their bodies. Whereas the F-22 and its brethens are able to influence the behavior of the non-visible freqs to reduce their electronic signatures. Ground battles are two dimensional. Air battles are three dimensional, making target detection problematic in the visible spectrum, hence to need to detect aircrafts using non-visible spectrum freqs. Saturating one's airspace with visible detectors -- pilots -- in order to force the F-22 into visual range battles is not feasible -- money -- and this is presuming that the F-22 is already inside one's airspace. But even if it is somehow logistically possible to have such a saturation of coverage, several F-22s outside of one's airspace will be able to shoot down aircrafts to create gaps so that other 'stealth' aircrafts will slip through.

As The Borg says -- Resistance is futile.





Munir said:


> Composites do not decrease RCS. *I think that it is something written by someone who hardly understands radar principles. If you add composites and the radar passes through* then you have a bigger problem cause everything behind the composites needs to be redesigned in a very inefficient way to reduce RCS... It is all about refelction directions and changes in curves.
> 
> About RAM... Well. I wish you luck in adding ram on engine blades...  Or radar dish... Or deflectors or airflow mechanics...


Composite materials intending to reduce RCS do not 'passes through' radar signals. Do refrain from making comments like this else it would be revealing as to who really do not understand basic radar principles.


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## Arsalan

so what is the debate about. no one says that the J10 is meant to take on the F22!! they are different planes. for the F22 the programme is of JXX. if J10 was to be on par with F22 then there would not be any 5th generation programme. we all agree to this.
but
yes we in the same manner it is also true that J10 can take out any othe 4 or 4.5 generaton plane and many people try to disagree with this fact! i do not mean to say that the J10 will out power anyother plane but that it will not be out powered by any other! it will be an even money bet but as i said certain members try to mak epoint that the J10 cannot even stand a chance against the LCA or the Su30! perhaps it is posts like these that flame up the forum!

all in all we can say that J10 is a true 4.5 gneration plane able to dominate the air!

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> so what is the debate about. no one says that the J10 is meant to take on the F22!! they are different planes. for the F22 the programme is of JXX. if J10 was to be on par with F22 then there would not be any 5th generation programme. we all agree to this.
> but
> yes we in the same manner it is also true that J10 can take out any othe 4 or 4.5 generaton plane and many people try to disagree with this fact! i do not mean to say that the J10 will out power anyother plane but that it will not be out powered by any other! it will be an even money bet but as i said certain members try to mak epoint that the J10 cannot even stand a chance against the LCA or the Su30! perhaps it is posts like these that flame up the forum!
> 
> all in all we can say that J10 is a true 4.5 gneration plane able to dominate the air!
> 
> regards!



I wont say that J-10 cant take on F-22 if a falcon can take out a raptor J-10 can do that aswell.
Now raptor has become a big problem for US we all know its a tactical fighter and no other fighter can even come close.
US having publicized all this created big problems for it self like just wonder an F-22 is downed by a fighter that would creat voices in US about the hundreds of billions spent on development and Maintainence of this "unmatchable" AC.US doesnt put forward Raptor against any other AC nor did they use it in Iraq War why? because the whole program would be ruined if a loop hole was detected against it.
LHM Co engaged more than a thousand sub contractors on this project so the quality management would be a real issue. I mean 44.5K USD for every hour of flight aaah its a sitting duck kept just for showcase of advancement.
 (any contrary views welcomed)

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## s90

J-10 vertical climb at takeoff


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> I wont say that J-10 cant take on F-22 if a falcon can take out a raptor J-10 can do that aswell.
> Now raptor has become a big problem for US we all know its a tactical fighter and no other fighter can even come close.
> US having publicized all this created big problems for it self like just wonder an F-22 is downed by a fighter that would creat voices in US about the hundreds of billions spent on development and Maintainence of this "unmatchable" AC.US doesnt put forward Raptor against any other AC nor did they use it in Iraq War why? because the whole program would be ruined if a loop hole was detected against it.
> LHM Co engaged more than a thousand sub contractors on this project so the quality management would be a real issue. I mean 44.5K USD for every hour of flight aaah its a sitting duck kept just for showcase of advancement.
> (any contrary views welcomed)



yes this is the point! we may never come to fight the raptor! however the case you have pointed to regarding the falcon taking down a raptor have many clarifications that need to be made, and that was also once in the blue moon! we can not say that J10 will be able to tackel the raptor on regular basis but we will also not agree with someone who says that the SU30 can easily take down the FC20 without the second one not standing a chance against the Su! this is wrong! 
the Su30 and FC20 will be a wise comparison to make!

i hope you understand what i mean to say! however thanks for your post!

regards!


----------



## MastanKhan

s90 said:


> J-10 vertical climb at takeoff
> 
> zeuON3eGA0o[/media] - J-10 Vertical Climb At Takeoff - J-10 beats F-22 Raptor





Hi,

It is of a simple mind to accept that J 10 beats F 22 on take off---. F22's capabilities of verticle climb or other manouvers will never be made public for another 5---10 years at least.

No outsider will find the actual rate of vertical climb on the F 22---we are only shown that part which is not of much importance----.

The J 10 vertical is a little joke---I saw the F 16's take off at hill afb in 1984--85--86 ---sitting on the south side of the runway on hwy 193 in my car---I saw them go vertical right before the end of the runway till they almost disappeared from the eye sight---possibly 10000---15000 ft up in the air----and hill afb is around 3000---4000 ft elevation.

So---please don't feel the high rush for this chicken little kind of miniature vertical climb of J 10.


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## MastanKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> I wont say that J-10 cant take on F-22 if a falcon can take out a raptor J-10 can do that aswell.
> Now raptor has become a big problem for US we all know its a tactical fighter and no other fighter can even come close.
> US having publicized all this created big problems for it self like just wonder an F-22 is downed by a fighter that would creat voices in US about the hundreds of billions spent on development and Maintainence of this "unmatchable" AC.US doesnt put forward Raptor against any other AC nor did they use it in Iraq War why? because the whole program would be ruined if a loop hole was detected against it.
> LHM Co engaged more than a thousand sub contractors on this project so the quality management would be a real issue. I mean 44.5K USD for every hour of flight aaah its a sitting duck kept just for showcase of advancement.
> (any contrary views welcomed)




Hi,

Americans always play the mind games---just because a person can read english, does not mean that they understand what the americans are saying---you have to know american psyche, the american mindset to understand what is being said---and if you know all that---still there is no way for a civilian to decipher what kind of confusing statement the americans are making.

It is hell of a confusion for a foreign millitary analyst to decipher the F 22 scenario---let alone some pakistani civilians on this board. What is shown on the media is supposed to put you into a lull---to get you into a state of slumber.


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## BATMAN

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is of a simple mind to accept that J 10 beats F 22 on take off---. F22's capabilities of verticle climb or other manouvers will never be made public for another 5---10 years at least.
> 
> No outsider will find the actual rate of vertical climb on the F 22---we are only shown that part which is not of much importance----.
> 
> The J 10 vertical is a little joke---I saw the F 16's take off at hill afb in 1984--85--86 ---sitting on the south side of the runway on hwy 193 in my car---I saw them go vertical right before the end of the runway till they almost disappeared from the eye sight---possibly 10000---15000 ft up in the air----and hill afb is around 3000---4000 ft elevation.
> 
> So---please don't feel the high rush for this chicken little kind of miniature vertical climb of J 10.



One thing cannot be debated and this is that western engines are more advance than eastern counterparts.
name of the game is war and perhaps J-10 out number F-22 in apossible encounter. and all other realities which had been discussed in past, about offense and defense roles.
F-22 may come out as winner if it is flown out of india, Taiwan or Afghanistan but if it has no chance to over power PLAAF flying off from an AC carrier.
again same old rehtoric...imagine J-10 and F-22 both shooting their BVR at each other.. wonder who will come out as winner.
in any WVR senario, imean switching to guns....smaller AC will be more effective.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

F 22 won't be by itself---bvr does not mean that---if I can see you then in return you can see me as well. The elctronic jammers will be playing the most important part. The chinese may not be able to see what is coming from where---not now---not any time soon---they will be flying blind .

There will be no switching to guns in 99.99 % of situations. F 22 pilots are not trained to be cow boys---unless it becomes desperate---their flying techniques are based totally shoot and scoot.

It is very simplistic to say that J 10's will outnumber the F 22. Well the thing here is, that is how the F 22 has been designed to make its assault---to fight against larger numbers, launch its missiles and take off.

One must understand that neither india, taiwan or afghanistan would allow the flight of F 22---secondly the u s will not allow itself to launch its planes from these places. It knows the consequences to the locale very well.

The only enemy would be a lack of fuel for the F 22---for that, the chinese will have to take down the refuellers---the F 22 would be flying in from the base in the pacific---they will top off their tanks approximately 800 to a thousand miles away from mainland china---if the chinese are able to take down the refuellers, then the only escape route is japan---to cover that, chinese will have to place a large airforce to block the approach to the japanese island---but then the problem arises---chinse won't have front line interceptors to cover the retreat into japan---and planes coming out of japan to protect the incoming F 22's would still be superior to the chinese---.

So---the end result would be a total decimation of the chinese defencive strike force---at what cost---maybe maybe---the americans send out a total of 20 F 22's-----it will cost the chinese at least 50 to 60 of the top of the line intercptors---on their escape route maybe 2% of the F 22 are taken out---but then 2/3rd of the chinse aircraft guarding the japan route would be neutralized---possibly---out of 40 planes---maybe maybe 10 of them would return---now that is not where it ends---.

In order to take out the refuellers---the chinese will have to send a large number of aircraft to take down the KC's---the good chance is that even though the chinese may take the refuellers out---the planes guarding the refuellers will take out at least 60---80% of the chinese strike force.

So---basically---in just a period of 24 hours, the chinese air force would be pumelled into submission---with a possible loss of around 80---to a 150 of their best of the planes and the best of the best of their air force jocks. The rest will be open skies over blue waters etc etc.

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## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> F 22 won't be by itself---bvr does not mean that---if I can see you then in return you can see me as well. The elctronic jammers will be playing the most important part. The chinese may not be able to see what is coming from where---not now---not any time soon---they will be flying blind .
> 
> There will be no switching to guns in 99.99 % of situations. F 22 pilots are not trained to be cow boys---unless it becomes desperate---their flying techniques are based totally shoot and scoot.
> 
> It is very simplistic to say that J 10's will outnumber the F 22. Well the thing here is, that is how the F 22 has been designed to make its assault---to fight against larger numbers, launch its missiles and take off.
> 
> One must understand that neither india, taiwan or afghanistan would allow the flight of F 22---secondly the u s will not allow itself to launch its planes from these places. It knows the consequences to the locale very well.
> 
> The only enemy would be a lack of fuel for the F 22---for that, the chinese will have to take down the refuellers---the F 22 would be flying in from the base in the pacific---they will top off their tanks approximately 800 to a thousand miles away from mainland china---if the chinese are able to take down the refuellers, then the only escape route is japan---to cover that, chinese will have to place a large airforce to block the approach to the japanese island---but then the problem arises---chinse won't have front line interceptors to cover the retreat into japan---and planes coming out of japan to protect the incoming F 22's would still be superior to the chinese---.
> 
> So---the end result would be a total decimation of the chinese defencive strike force---at what cost---maybe maybe---the americans send out a total of 20 F 22's-----it will cost the chinese at least 50 to 60 of the top of the line intercptors---on their escape route maybe 2% of the F 22 are taken out---but then 2/3rd of the chinse aircraft guarding the japan route would be neutralized---possibly---out of 40 planes---maybe maybe 10 of them would return---now that is not where it ends---.
> 
> In order to take out the refuellers---the chinese will have to send a large number of aircraft to take down the KC's---the good chance is that even though the chinese may take the refuellers out---the planes guarding the refuellers will take out at least 60---80% of the chinese strike force.
> 
> So---basically---in just a period of 24 hours, the chinese air force would be pumelled into submission---with a possible loss of around 80---to a 150 of their best of the planes and the best of the best of their air force jocks. The rest will be open skies over blue waters etc etc.



preety simple but you didnt explain what kind of resistence they would be facing i mean what kind of ACs other than raptors if they are flcons superhornets or eagles and you forgot to mention the sam networks that they would deploy 

---------- Post added at 07:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:31 AM ----------

Subject: China's anti-stealth capability
EastWind_81 4/21/2004 10:33:26 AM 
This is from a while back: link 

THE CIA and Pentagon fear that China may be on the verge of perfecting a new anti-aircraft technology that can locate and track the stealth fighters and bombers that form a central plank of US air power. 

The US defence establishment is so concerned that China may be forging a PCL, or ?passive coherent location? system, that America?s military planners have been summoned to a meeting in Washington next month to examine the strategic implications of such a breakthrough, Newsweek reported yesterday. 

Existing anti-aircraft early-warning systems rely on conventional radar, which the bat- shaped Stealth fighters are designed to evade. Such radars are also vulnerable to jamming and attack by missiles which follow the path of radar beams to transmitters. 

The new Chinese system, by contrast, simply monitors civilian radio and television broadcasts and analyses the minute fluctuations caused by the passage of an aircraft through commercial wavelengths. 

Relying on a network of receivers similar to television aerials, the ?silent? PCL system does not emit a tell- tale radar signal and is therefore much harder to locate and destroy. 

US military strategy could be dramatically undermined if US stealth aircraft, including the F117 fighter and the F22 fighter now in development, become vulnerable to Chinese interception, particularly given China?s more aggressive recent stance over Taiwan. 

?Everyone is wondering about the cost of defending Taiwan,? one senior intelligence official was quoted as saying. 

The US is developing a similar system, the ?silent sentry?, which monitors energy reflected from commercial TV and radio signals to track aircraft. 

The shooting down of a US Air Force F117 fighter in March during the Kosovo conflict has added to US fears that the stealth technology, developed amid intense secrecy during the 1970s, may no longer be the asset that it was. 

Yugoslavia is believed to have sold on the wreckage of the F117, probably to China or Russia, and defence experts say that while the stealth technology used in that aircraft is now out of date, the wreck may still be useful for perfecting a means to track it. The Pentagon has refused to discuss how the aircraft was brought down, but defence officials say that the F117 was probably shot down by a Serb SA3 surface-to-air missile. 

The B2 bomber, first deployed during the Kosovo conflict, uses a more advanced type of stealth technology than the F117, but it could still leave a ?signature? detectable by a Chinese PCL system. 

The US is the only country with stealth technology in use, and both Russia and China have been researching a means of tracking the ?invisible? aircraft since the early 1970s. On conventional radar, if the technology is working correctly, a stealth aircaft is impossible to detect, but a PCL system may be able not only to ?see? the incoming aircraft, but identify the make by its disruption of television and radio signals permanently in the atmosphere. 

China's anti-stealth capability


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

We are just over water till now---haven't gone over land yet---keeping the discussion simple---because that is where it was.

I mean to say---first of all there is not going to be any confrontation between u s and china----if we are talking about a scenario----then it would be a complete air strike force supported by a carrier battle group---with F 22 taking off from guam---B 2's targeting the ground targets---F 18's flying from the carriers to give air cover to refuellers and AWACS and acting as back up for the F22's---F 15's flying from japan to help escort the F 22's back to land in japan---.

The first major concern for the chinese will ne to to find the air battle group---all chinese radars systems will be heavily jammed---possibly---half the chinese air force in the air would be running around chasing phantom targets created by the americans.

The air dominance by the americans will never be the issue---the issue would be---where would the conflict lead itself to---.

You see---americans have a habbit of creating panic in their populace---so that they can get more funds for the millitary--so that they can startup a war wherever they want to---so---when you listen to an american telling you that they are concerned with someones technology etc---you gotta get your antenaes up---and watch all around you---and be on your best behaviour---that is the time that they would strike---.

Coming back---this air assault would hurt china so much that they will end up using nuclear strikes against the carrier battle group and against the air base in guam---and regular cruise missile strikes on the japanes air bases as well. The siuation will get out of control in the first hours of the contact.

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## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> We are just over water till now---haven't gone over land yet---keeping the discussion simple---because that is where it was.
> 
> I mean to say---first of all there is not going to be any confrontation between u s and china----if we are talking about a scenario----then it would be a complete air strike force supported by a carrier battle group---with F 22 taking off from guam---B 2's targeting the ground targets---F 18's flying from the carriers to give air cover to refuellers and AWACS and acting as back up for the F22's---F 15's flying from japan to help escort the F 22's back to land in japan---.
> 
> The first major concern for the chinese will ne to to find the air battle group---all chinese radars systems will be heavily jammed---possibly---half the chinese air force in the air would be running around chasing phantom targets created by the americans.
> 
> The air dominance by the americans will never be the issue---the issue would be---where would the conflict lead itself to---.
> 
> You see---americans have a habbit of creating panic in their populace---so that they can get more funds for the millitary--so that they can startup a war wherever they want to---so---when you listen to an american telling you that they are concerned with someones technology etc---you gotta get your antenaes up---and watch all around you---and be on your best behaviour---that is the time that they would strike---.
> 
> Coming back---this air assault would hurt china so much that they will end up using nuclear strikes against the carrier battle group and against the air base in guam---and regular cruise missile strikes on the japanes air bases as well. The siuation will get out of control in the first hours of the contact.



Dont expect Chinese to be Dumb 
Russian / PLA Low Band Surveillance Radar Systems (Counter Low Observable Technology Radars)


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## gambit

> The new Chinese system, by contrast, simply monitors civilian radio and television broadcasts and analyses the minute fluctuations caused by the passage of an aircraft through commercial wavelengths.
> 
> Relying on a network of receivers similar to television aerials, the ?silent? PCL system does not emit a tell- tale radar signal and is therefore much harder to locate and destroy.
> 
> The US is developing a similar system, the ?silent sentry?, which monitors energy reflected from commercial TV and radio signals to track aircraft.


The foundation for this new type of sensor is *NOT* new. It is called a 'bi-static' set-up. There are serious disadvantages for a bi-static radar system.

Most people are familiar with the idea of a rotating antenna that perform *BOTH* transmit and receive functions. This is called a 'mono-static' set-up. The transmissions are pulsed, meaning the antenna stops transmissions in order to 'listen' for any echoes. The mono-static system was developed *AFTER* the bi-static system due to the first serious drawback -- portability. In a bi-static system, there are two antennas, one to transmit and one to receive. The transmission can be continuous wave (CW) or pulsed. The receiver antenna is the one that does the actual 'listening' of any echoes. The portability issue is clear.

Next issue is synchronicity. The receiver must be aware of what the transmitter is doing at what time down to the picosecond. Anything less and with a target moving at several hundreds km/hr, perhaps even more, and a miss can be disastrous for the defenders. What about distance? Any competent EE will say that signals degrades as distances increases. Installing periodic amplifier stations along the cables linking the two antennas increases the portability problem.

Next issue is ownership. In a typical bi-static system, there is only one owner. But in this detection scheme where ordinary TV, radio and assorted electronic signals are exploited, the user is not the owner of the transmissions. There is now a magnitudinal difference in data processing power on the receiver end to sort out which echo come from which freq. Remember that an echo is created by two elements: the body and the frequency. Tranmit two different freqs at the same body and there will be distinct echoes, each contain slightly different information about the target. Now try to sort out all the echoes off a body traveling at several hundreds km/hr that are from TV channels 2, 3, 8, 12, etc...etc...Not counting AM/FM radios...Not counting cell phone signals...Not counting background radiation.

For each transmitter-target-receiver situation, there is what is called 'the bi-static triangle'...

Bistatic radar noncooperative illumination synchronization techniques


> Synchronization techniques used in the Bistatic Alerting and Cueing (BAC) program are examined. Particular attention is given to illuminator search, target search synchronization, RF synchronization, PRF (pulse repetition frequency) synchronization, range gate synchronization, and *solution of the bistatic triangle*. All of the synchronization techniques have been implemented and tested during the two and a half years of field-test demonstration of the BAC system. It is concluded that feasibility testing produced excellent results.


A receiver antenna in this detection scheme cannot afford to isolate and process a single freq due to the fact that the freq may not be as coherent as desired, or may contain freq modulations, or amplitude modulations or combinations of all. The list is not comprehensive. So the receiver antenna must process several echoes at any given time and must try to correlate them. Each bi-static triangle *PER FREQUENCY* must be resolved independently. Now add in multiple targets to the mix, targets that travels at different speeds, altitudes and directions. This detection scheme is best for civilian population centers, not geographically isolated military targets.

For geographically isolated military targets, several sufficiently sophisticated mono-static systems can indeed function as a bi-static system whose elements -- transmitters and receivers -- are mobile. The entire system can revert itself so that each element can become mono-static again to enhance its survivability, or to act as decoy for beamrider missiles, or pair with another mono-static element to momentarily be a bi-static system to further confuse the enemy. This also offer immunity from power outage. What if the enemy destroy the city's power stations? Iraq, anyone? Now there are gaps because of missing TV, radios and cell phone transmissions for the receivers to use. Who needs to go after the receivers when they are only receivers? Destroy the main power sources that produces those TV, radio and cell phone transmisions. But several mono-static elements that can function as a single large bi-static system do not have this weakness because they are originally mono-static, so each has its own power source.

People...Do not swallow wholesale what the Russians and the Chinese vomitted up.



> The shooting down of a US Air Force F117 fighter in March during the Kosovo conflict has added to US fears that the stealth technology, developed amid intense secrecy during the 1970s, may no longer be the asset that it was.
> 
> Yugoslavia is believed to have sold on the wreckage of the F117, probably to China or Russia, and defence experts say that while the stealth technology used in that aircraft is now out of date, the wreck may still be useful for perfecting a means to track it. The Pentagon has refused to discuss how the aircraft was brought down, but defence officials say that the F117 was probably shot down by a Serb SA3 surface-to-air missile.


It was a typical 'spray and pray' tactic. If whatever that Zoltan Dani did was so good, then why is it that out of 21,000 sorties only two aircrafts, an F-16 and an F-117, was shot down? Is that a combat record to toast a few beers about? Whoever wrote the phrase '...added to US fears...' are interested only in rhetorics, nothing more. We designed the aircraft, we know its weaknesses.



> The B2 bomber, first deployed during the Kosovo conflict, uses a more advanced type of stealth technology than the F117, but it *could* still leave a ?signature? detectable by a Chinese PCL system.
> 
> The US is the only country with stealth technology in use, and both Russia and China have been researching a means of tracking the ?invisible? aircraft since the early 1970s. On conventional radar, if the technology is working correctly, a stealth aircaft is impossible to detect, but a PCL system *may be* able not only to ?see? the incoming aircraft, but identify the make by its disruption of television and radio signals permanently in the atmosphere.


Could and may be...If this the best this 'expert' can come up with, we have nothing to worry about.

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## SBD-3

nice piece of information


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## MastanKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> Dont expect Chinese to be Dumb
> Russian / PLA Low Band Surveillance Radar Systems (Counter Low Observable Technology Radars)





Hi,

It is not a matter of considering the chinese as dumb---it is a matter of talking to people who want to make china what it is not.

People---in their dislike of the u s, one must not loose focus from the devastating power they have over any adversary.

There will be no mano a mano dog fights between F 22 and J 10---but if there are---they maybe incidental for a few seconds when the planes are merging---through the merge the F 22 will be disengaging and flying away.


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## s90

^ i wasnt comparing it with F-22


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## kashmir

I think we do not need Rafale or Eurofighter any more 


*China builds a superpower fighter - Asia - Pacific - International Herald Tribune*
By David Lague
Published: Thursday, February 8, 2007


*BEIJING * For more than two decades, China has labored to build its first state-of-the-art jet fighter as part of the country's drive to become a leading military power.

In December, it appeared to have closed in on that ambition when it revealed, in an unusual blaze of publicity, that its new fighter, the J-10, had entered service in the air force.

Footage of the new aircraft firing missiles and refueling in flight was shown on state-controlled television, and Chinese defense magazines have published lengthy reports with photographs of the single-engine fighter.

Although specific details about the J-10's performance and specifications remain highly classified, some Western and Chinese military experts say the successful development of this advanced, multirole aircraft could be the catalyst for China to become a leading force in military aviation.

They say that Chinese engineers, with help from Israel and Russia, had refined a design aimed at matching advanced aircraft such as the Lockheed Martin F-16, the frontline U.S. Air Force fighter that has also been sold to more than 20 countries.

"A generation of engineers was put through their major production experience on that aircraft," said Rick Fisher, an expert on the Chinese military and vice president of the International Strategy and Assessment Center, a research institute based in Alexandria, Virginia.

"It has enabled China to create a cadre of experts that will be building ever more advanced aircraft over the next 50 years."

Along with China's successful test of an anti-satellite missile on Jan. 11, the new fighter is further evidence that double-digit increases in defense spending over much of the last 15 years are being converted into sharply increased firepower for the People's Liberation Army.

The introduction of modern aircraft, missiles, submarines and warships over the past decade, along with the increased professionalism of its service personnel, means that China is rapidly gaining the military muscle to match its growing economic clout.

And, according to Chinese and foreign military analysts, its domestic defense industries are steadily mastering key technologies needed to reduce the military's heavy dependence on Russian weapons.

The fanfare for the J-10 was overshadowed outside China by the international outcry over the missile strike that destroyed a defunct weather satellite.

In the aftermath of the missile test, Beijing attempted to allay fears that its military buildup poses a threat to its neighbors or other major powers.

"We do not conceal our intention to build a strong and modern national defense," the deputy chief of general staff of the People's Liberation Army, Lieutenant General Zhang Qinsheng, said in an interview last Friday that was published on the front page of the official China Daily newspaper.

"But," he continued, "we also tell the world candidly that the Chinese defense policy is always defensive in nature."

Despite these assurances, new weapons such as the J-10 are likely to contribute to growing unease, particularly in Asia, about China's long-term ambitions.

The threat from China's mounting air power is most keenly felt in Taiwan. Beijing regards the self-governing island as a renegade province and refuses to rule out the use of force if Taiwan makes any move toward formal independence.

Military experts say the deployment of the J-10 in big numbers will further erode the advantage in military technology that Taiwan's air force has enjoyed over its mainland rival.

On Jan. 23, Major General Wang Cheng-hsiao of Taiwan said that China had so far put about 60 J-10s into service and that these, in combination with China's advanced Russian-designed fighters, would give the mainland "supremacy over Taiwan in the air."

Lin Chong-pin, president of a research institute based in Taipei, the Foundation on International and Cross- Strait Studies, said Taiwan's advantage "is getting narrower and narrower."

"At the moment it is just in balance," added Lin, a former deputy defense minister in the governing Democratic Progressive Party. "If Taiwan doesn't do anything, it will tip in favor of the PLA air force."
To counter the threat, Taiwan wants to buy more F-16 fighters from the United States, but most analysts believe it is unlikely that the Bush administration will agree to this request while the island's legislature continues to block funding for an earlier arms order.

China plans to overhaul its air force as part of a larger effort to modernize its military, according to the defense White Paper that the Chinese government published in December. The document said China would concentrate on developing new fighters while reducing the overall number of combat aircraft.

"The air force aims at speeding up its transition from territorial air defense to both offensive and defensive operations and increasing its capabilities in the areas of strike, air and missile defense, early warning and reconnaissance and strategic projects," it said.

*Although the official Chinese media described the J-10 as a "breakthrough" for Chinese military aviation, these reports also suggested that the plane was inferior to U.S. fighters like the F-16.

The Pentagon noted in May in its annual study on Chinese military power reports that the J-10 would be similar in weight and performance to two advanced European fighters, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Dassault Rafale.
*
*Fisher, of the International Strategy and Assessment Center, says that of the fighters in service around the world, only the American F-22 Raptor, jointly produced by Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Pratt & Whitney for the U.S. Air Force, would clearly outmatch the J-10.

"The J-10 is a significant military capability," he said. "It's a highly maneuverable fighter."
*
It is unclear how many J-10's its maker, China Aviation Industry Corporation I, the country's most important aircraft manufacturer, plans to deliver to the air force.

Small numbers of single-seat and two-seat versions of the new fighter are already operational and some experts believe up to 300 could soon be produced to supplement the high-performance, Russian-designed Sukhoi Su-27 and Su-30MK aircraft already in service with the Chinese Air Force.

There has been some speculation that the production run could be expanded if the J-10, which is expected to be much cheaper than an F-16, can win export orders from countries unable to pay for expensive Western aircraft.

Prices of fighters vary sharply depending on capability but Chile is paying $60 million each for 10 F-16's it has on order from the United States. Fisher estimates a J-10 could sell for $25 million to $40 million.

The U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency forecasts that up to 1,200 of these aircraft could eventually be built, according to the Pentagon report on the Chinese military.

The publicity surrounding the new aircraft  including interviews with the leading designers  appeared to be aimed at fostering a sense of national pride in the achievements of the domestic defense industry.

For most of the period when the J-10 was under development, the Western arms embargo imposed after the 1989 Tiananmen crackdown meant that China was denied access to American and European aviation technology.

However, while acknowledging the technical advances China has made over that period, most experts believe the J-10 has relied heavily on technology transferred from Israel's aborted Lavi fighter project.

Prototypes of the Lavi, which was similar in capability to the F-16, had performed well in tests but Israel canceled the project in the late 1980s after the United States withdrew financial support.

Elements of its design are evident in the size and shape of the new Chinese fighter.

Fisher and other experts suggest that Israel also supplied the so-called fly- by-wire computer software that controls the aircraft in flight.

And technical difficulties that have long dogged Chinese efforts to build high-performance military jet engines forced the manufacturer to import Russian turbofan engines to power the J-10.

Locally produced engines could soon be available for the J-10 and other Chinese military aircraft, according to some analysts.

Lin, of the Foundation on International and Cross-Strait Studies in Taiwan, and some other military experts believe this combination of borrowed and adapted technology could detract from the J-10's operational performance, at least in the short term.

"This is a potpourri of parts from different countries," Lin said. "Naturally, there will be some limits to its capability. I suspect there is still room for improvement."


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## notorious_eagle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is not a matter of considering the chinese as dumb---it is a matter of talking to people who want to make china what it is not.
> 
> People---in their dislike of the u s, one must not loose focus from the devastating power they have over any adversary.
> 
> There will be no mano a mano dog fights between F 22 and J 10---but if there are---they maybe incidental for a few seconds when the planes are merging---through the merge the F 22 will be disengaging and flying away.



I completely agree with you sir, at present their is no country in the world that can afford to go head on against the US conventionally. If ever there was a country after WW2 that had the firepower to match the Americans, that was the Soviet Union but it came at a cost of their economy which ultimately brought their collapse. But i would say one thing, in its present power China cannot match the might of US but in the next 30 years if everything goes according to plan the Chinese will boast a military that can challenge the Americans. The Chinese are investing billions of dollars in their military, but unlike the Soviets the Chinese are expanding their economy at a rapid pace.

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## MastanKhan

Hi N E,

Thanks for you r comments. China has decided to take the 'high road' to success---it does not need the military route to do the job.

Day before yesterday---there were more american cars sold in china than in the u s of a. A sale record was broken. Secondly---the americans donot get any benefit for those sales---because all the assembly and manufacturing is supposedly being done in china.

Chinese business people are in contetion of buying the 'HUMMER' brand from GM---some in china are against it ---but then we will wait and see- china is also a buyer of Volvo from GM.

All the chinese exports are being absorbed by the americans---china has the most amount of us dollars outside of u s of a---more than the u s itself---why then does china need to combat the u s.

Even though china imports its high tech CNC machine tooling equipment from the u s---it also knows the limitations that china has with its weapons systems---.

Even though we may consider that china will come up with something in 25 to 30 years---but then the u s will be light years away as well---when people want to compare what china wil become in future----they should remember the SR 71---when we saw this plane in retirement in the 90's after a service of 30 years---this plane was far advanced than any other plane on this planet---basically a plane of late 50's technology was way ahead of anything that this world has seen anywhere in this universe in the years of 1990's.

Now---if this is the difference in the technology---then the chinese are not interested in any warfare against the u s----today they don't even have a single successful hi tech fighter jet engine in production yet. It may take them another 15---20 years to get there where the current day upgraded F 15 or the F 16 or the FA 18 jet engines are.

So---the bottomline is again---no combat between the two---. J 10 may never get to take a shot at the F 22.

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## Arsalan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi N E,
> 
> Thanks for you r comments. China has decided to take the 'high road' to success---it does not need the military route to do the job.
> 
> Day before yesterday---there were more american cars sold in china than in the u s of a. A sale record was broken. Secondly---the americans donot get any benefit for those sales---because all the assembly and manufacturing is supposedly being done in china.
> 
> Chinese business people are in contetion of buying the 'HUMMER' brand from GM---some in china are against it ---but then we will wait and see- china is also a buyer of Volvo from GM.
> 
> All the chinese exports are being absorbed by the americans---china has the most amount of us dollars outside of u s of a---more than the u s itself---why then does china need to combat the u s.
> 
> Even though china imports its high tech CNC machine tooling equipment from the u s---it also knows the limitations that china has with its weapons systems---.
> 
> Even though we may consider that china will come up with something in 25 to 30 years---but then the u s will be light years away as well---when people want to compare what china wil become in future----they should remember the SR 71---when we saw this plane in retirement in the 90's after a service of 30 years---this plane was far advanced than any other plane on this planet---basically a plane of late 50's technology was way ahead of anything that this world has seen anywhere in this universe in the years of 1990's.
> 
> Now---if this is the difference in the technology---then the chinese are not interested in any warfare against the u s----today they don't even have a single successful hi tech fighter jet engine in production yet. It may take them another 15---20 years to get there where the current day upgraded F 15 or the F 16 or the FA 18 jet engines are.
> 
> So---the bottomline is again---no combat between the two---. J 10 may never get to take a shot at the F 22.




nice analysis sir!
almost all of us agree with the point that the J10 wont be countering the F22, there seems to be no possibility of such a misadventure from any side but the question was if it iis able to do so. i mean it was just a comparison of these technologies, a fruitfull analysis here would have helped us in countring the claims regarding the J10 being a below average 4.5 generation plane!

anyway thanks for your analysis!

regards!


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## SBD-3

Gates is right on the F-22
By: Winslow T. Wheeler 
July 6, 2009 04:50 AM EST

Congress is busying itself trying to overturn Secretary of Defense Robert Gates?s decision to stop producing the F-22 fighter. But President Barack Obama has threatened to veto a spending bill for the entire Defense Department if it contains a single F-22 over the 187 now authorized.

Gates has said that, without a doubt, Obama should veto a bill that includes additional F-22s. The fact that there are doubts demonstrates the mess our defenses are in.

The House committee wants to make a down payment on 12 more F-22s in 2011; the Senate committee wants seven more in 2010.

The House passed its version of the bill on June 25 by a vote of 389-22. So Obama and Gates have a long way to go to show that they have the 145 or so votes they would need to sustain a veto.

Gates and Obama?s case against the F-22 is reasonable but needs to be more comprehensive.

Gates has argued that not a single F-22 has flown in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But there simply are no enemy air forces there. 

Also, the F-22 is outrageously expensive. The 187 now authorized are costing the nation more than $65 billion, almost $350 million for each one. 

More important, but so far unaddressed, is whether the F-22 is even a good fighter. Actually, it is a gigantic disappointment.

Its boosters advertise the F-22 as a technological wonder &#8212; which it isn?t.

Its ?stealth? characteristic is greatly exaggerated. And, while the F-22 is less detectable by some radar at certain angles, it is easily detectable to many types of radar in the world, including early Russian and Chinese models. Just ask the pilots of the two stealthy F-117 bombers that were put out of action by Serbs in the 1999 Kosovo air war using antiquated radar systems.

Worse, the F-22 depends on its radar and long-range, radar-guided missiles. Such ?beyond visual range? radar-based air warfare has failed time and time again in war. 

There are two problems. First, even the low probability of intercept radar in the F-22 is vulnerable to detection by enemies, especially with the proliferation of spread-spectrum technology in cell phones and laptops. The radar not only signals the F-22?s presence to enemies but also acts as a beacon for their radar-homing missiles. While both the Russians and the Chinese specialize in such missiles, our Air Force, in its exercises, insists that such capabilities do not exist.

Second, its aerodynamic performance, short-range missiles and guns are nothing special, which I observed at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada when an F-16 ?shot down? an F-22 in exercises.

A vote in Congress for more F-22s is a vote to decay our pilots? skills, shrink our Air Force at increasing cost and reward Congress?s lust for pork. Congress?s new defense bill should, indeed, be vetoed if a single F-22 is added. Pro-defense members of Congress will support that move.

Winslow T. Wheeler is the director of the Straus Military Reform Project of the Center for Defense Information. He is the author of the new anthology ?America?s Defense Meltdown: Pentagon Reform for President Obama and the New Congress.?

&#169; 2009 Capitol News Company, LLC

Horrible Politico article on the F-22

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## SBD-3

F-22 Has A Fatal Skin Disease
July 12, 2009: Congressional hearings over building more F-22s has led to the release of data about how much it costs, per flight hour, to maintain the aircraft. It's $44,000 per flight hour, compared to $30,000 per hour for the older F-15 that the F-22 is replacing. The F-22 per-hour cost is nearly twice what it is for the F-16. While it requires 19 man hours of maintenance for each F-16 flight hour, the F-22 requires 34 hours. The manufacturer originally said it would be less than ten hours. Most of this additional F-22 expense (and man hours) is for special materials and labor needed to keep the aircraft invisible to radar. 

The main problem is the radar absorbent material used on the aircraft. The B-2 had a similar problem, which was eventually brought under control. But even then, the B-2 cost more than twice as much to operate than the half century old B-52. The B-2 and F-22 use different types of radar absorbent materials, so many of the B-2 solutions will not work for the F-22. 

Some of the F-22 electronics are still not as reliable as the air force would like. The F-35 uses a different approach to defeating radar signals, and the manufacturer insists that F-35 maintenance costs will be closer to that for the F-15, than for the F-22. But Lockheed Martin has been saying, for years, that its F-22 would be cheaper to maintain than existing aircraft. The air force never challenged this, at least not in public. Instead, the air force tried to keep the high operating costs a secret.

In addition, the F-22 costs more than three times as much as the aircraft it was to replace. The air force wants to build more than 187, and has allies in Congress who want the jobs (and votes) continued production will generate. But the Department of Defense is reluctant to spend that kind of money, especially when there so many other programs seeking funds (like electronic warfare aircraft, UAVs and upgrades for F-15s and F-16s). Thus, earlier this year, the Department of Defense decided to terminate F-22 production at 187 aircraft. This resulted in each aircraft costing (including development and production spending), $332 million. Just the production costs of the last F-22s built was $153.2 million. Added to the cost of the last few aircraft was a $147 million fee the Department of Defense agreed to pay if the production line was shut down. This goes to pay for shutting down facilities and terminating contracts with hundreds of supplies. 

The F-22 is a superb aircraft, probably the most capable fighter in the world. But the development and manufacturing costs kept rising until it became too expensive for the media, voters and politicians. The air force was able to build it, but they couldn't sell it to the people who paid the bills. 

A decade ago, the F-22 was a $62 billion program, of which development accounted for $18.9 billion (this was a spending cap imposed by Congress). A decade before that, the air force was planning to buy 750 F-22s. Costs kept going up for two decades, and Congress refused to provide more money. So, for $62 billion, the air force ended up getting fewer aircraft. 

The air force ran into a similar problem with the B-2 bomber, which became so expensive they were only allowed to build 21, and these cost $2.1 billion each. . About half of that was development expense. Actual construction costs for each of those aircraft was about $933 million each. Still pretty high, mainly because a lot of special machinery and factories had to be built to manufacture the many custom components. 

The air force likes to point out that if the original (1986) plan had been followed, each B-2 would have cost $438 million each. But then the entire program would have cost $58.2 billion, versus $44.3 billion for the 21 plane program (which included $10 billion more R&D expense). 

New technology gives a weapon, especially an aircraft, an edge in combat. But since World War II, most military technology has been developed in peacetime conditions. This means it is more than twice as expensive, as there is no wartime urgency to overcome bureaucratic inertia (and emphasis on covering your ***, which is very time consuming and expensive) and hesitation (because you don't have a war going on to settle disputes over what will work best). Developing this new technology takes longer in peacetime, which also raises the cost, and fewer units of a new weapon are produced (driving up the amount of development cost each weapon will have to carry.) If several hundred B-2s were produced under wartime conditions, each aircraft would have probably cost $200 million, or less. In other words, a tenth of what it actually cost. Same deal with the mythical $35 million F-22, or any other high tech weapon.

Other nations have adapted more effectively to peacetime development conditions. But the United States has the largest amount of peacetime military research and development, and this has created a unique military/industry/media/political atmosphere that drives costs up to the point where voters, politicians and the media will no longer support them.

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## SBD-3

""international AIR POWER REVIEW" - year 2006, issue 20, page 45. - ISNB: 1-880588-91-9 (casebound) or ISBN: 1473-9917. 

"more recently, there have been repeated reports that two RAF Typhoons deployed to the USA for OEU trails work have been flying against the F-22 at NAS China Lake, and have peformed better than was expected. There was little suprise that Typhoon, with its world-class agility and high off-boresight missile capability was able to dominate "Within Visual Range" flight, but the aircraft did cause a suprise by getting a radar lock on the F22 at a suprisingly long range. The F-22s cried off, claiming that they were "unstealthed" anyway, although the next day&#180;s scheduled two vs. two BWR engagement was canceled, and "the USAF decided they didn&#180;t want to play any more ."" 

I dare say that I am not surprised it if is true . 

Cheers .


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## gambit

hasnain0099 said:


> Gates is right on the F-22
> By: Winslow T. Wheeler
> July 6, 2009 04:50 AM EST
> 
> Congress is busying itself trying to overturn Secretary of Defense Robert Gates?s decision to stop producing the F-22 fighter. But President Barack Obama has threatened to veto a spending bill for the entire Defense Department if it contains a single F-22 over the 187 now authorized.
> 
> Gates has said that, without a doubt, Obama should veto a bill that includes additional F-22s. The fact that there are doubts demonstrates the mess our defenses are in.
> 
> The House committee wants to make a down payment on 12 more F-22s in 2011; the Senate committee wants seven more in 2010.
> 
> The House passed its version of the bill on June 25 by a vote of 389-22. So Obama and Gates have a long way to go to show that they have the 145 or so votes they would need to sustain a veto.
> 
> Gates and Obama?s case against the F-22 is reasonable but needs to be more comprehensive.
> 
> Gates has argued that not a single F-22 has flown in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But there simply are no enemy air forces there.
> 
> Also, the F-22 is outrageously expensive. The 187 now authorized are costing the nation more than $65 billion, almost $350 million for each one.
> 
> More important, but so far unaddressed, is whether the F-22 is even a good fighter. Actually, it is a gigantic disappointment.
> 
> Its boosters advertise the F-22 as a technological wonder  which it isn?t.
> 
> *Its ?stealth? characteristic is greatly exaggerated. And, while the F-22 is less detectable by some radar at certain angles, it is easily detectable to many types of radar in the world, including early Russian and Chinese models. Just ask the pilots of the two stealthy F-117 bombers that were put out of action by Serbs in the 1999 Kosovo air war using antiquated radar systems.*
> 
> Worse, the F-22 depends on its radar and long-range, radar-guided missiles. Such ?beyond visual range? radar-based air warfare has failed time and time again in war.
> 
> *There are two problems. First, even the low probability of intercept radar in the F-22 is vulnerable to detection by enemies, especially with the proliferation of spread-spectrum technology in cell phones and laptops. The radar not only signals the F-22?s presence to enemies but also acts as a beacon for their radar-homing missiles. While both the Russians and the Chinese specialize in such missiles, our Air Force, in its exercises, insists that such capabilities do not exist.*
> 
> Second, its aerodynamic performance, short-range missiles and guns are nothing special, which I observed at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada when an F-16 ?shot down? an F-22 in exercises.
> 
> A vote in Congress for more F-22s is a vote to decay our pilots? skills, shrink our Air Force at increasing cost and reward Congress?s lust for pork. Congress?s new defense bill should, indeed, be vetoed if a single F-22 is added. Pro-defense members of Congress will support that move.
> 
> Winslow T. Wheeler is the director of the Straus Military Reform Project of the Center for Defense Information. He is the author of the new anthology ?America?s Defense Meltdown: Pentagon Reform for President Obama and the New Congress.?
> 
> © 2009 Capitol News Company, LLC
> 
> Horrible Politico article on the F-22


This 'Winslow T. Wheeler' is obviously a technical ignoramus. Eveything highlighted have been effectively debunked as I have explained how several times here. Looks like the US critics, unable to challenge the F-22 on technical issues, must resort to trolling the Internet for and post as many of these nonsensical op-eds as possible.


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## gambit

hasnain0099 said:


> The F-35 uses a different approach to defeating radar signals,


Care to explain what that is...?


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## a1b2c145

fly~~~~~~~~~~
Fly,fly and fly


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## mean_bird

J-10b in regular color (posted by GT@CDF)

Reactions: Like Like:
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## spurdozer

hasnain0099 said:


> Gates is right on the F-22
> 
> Its ?stealth? characteristic is greatly exaggerated. And, while the F-22 is less detectable by some radar at certain angles, it is easily detectable to many types of radar in the world, including early Russian and Chinese models. Just ask the pilots of the two stealthy F-117 bombers that were put out of action by Serbs in the 1999 Kosovo air war using antiquated radar systems.



Assalam-o-Alaikum

How are you? The F-22 uses a different approach for LO than the F-117. The F-117's stealth technology is outdated and all the F-117 platforms are now retired from service. Although I am not a technical man. But as gambit sir has several times explained that F-22 does not use the stealth technology used on the F-117. 
Although I have never been a fan of the F-22 project financially but no one can deny the super-technological wonder it is, and it is simply dumb to under-estimate the powers of F-22. One might have have reservations about the financial aspects of the project but the plane itself is a magnificent piece of supreme technology.
Salam.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## spurdozer

mean_bird said:


> J-10b in regular color (posted by GT@CDF)





Masha-Allah. Looks beautiful.


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## Stealth

spurdozer said:


> Masha-Allah. Looks beautiful.



wOW!! aircraft loOkin seXi


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## Arsalan

i wish the FC20 turns out to be even better! not in apperance only but inn specs and performance!
and i wish to see em soon!!

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i wish the FC20 turns out to be even better! not in apperance only but inn specs and performance!
> and i wish to see em soon!!
> 
> regards!



what defferences are you expecting in FC-20???


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## mean_bird

We don't know the specs of this plane but the different between FC-20 and the regular J-10 would be in better Radar, Navigation system and weapons. 

Additionally, the engine is like to change as well. There might be other things too but we do not know about it yet.


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## SBD-3

hum nice to hear that and any AESA contenders????????


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> what defferences are you expecting in FC-20???



the FC 20 is going to be an aircraft tailor made for PAF! it will suit our maintainance facilities and will be compaitable with most of westren system. the actual specs are not known as yet but i expect it to have better radar and may even a slightly improved engine. there is no doubt that the J10 in itself is a great plane and PAF wont be seeking much upgrades into the FC20 and rather then upgrades there will be odifications to suit our requirments, this most importantly means compatibility with westren systems!

regards!


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## Arsalan

mean_bird said:


> We don't know the specs of this plane but the different between FC-20 and the regular J-10 would be in better Radar, Navigation system and weapons.
> 
> Additionally, the engine is like to change as well. There might be other things too but we do not know about it yet.



yes, that the way it is supposed to develop! it may not incorporate westren systems but will be compaitable with them. FC 20 will be a case of modification done to J10 to suit PAF rather then upgradations to take it to another level! as far as weapons are considered, yes, it may well be modified to fire westren origin weapons along with the chines ones!

regards!


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## a1b2c145

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the FC 20 is going to be an aircraft tailor made for PAF! it will suit our maintainance facilities and will be compaitable with most of westren system. the actual specs are not known as yet but i expect it to have better radar and may even a slightly improved engine. there is no doubt that the J10 in itself is a great plane and PAF wont be seeking much upgrades into the FC20 and rather then upgrades there will be odifications to suit our requirments, this most importantly means compatibility with westren systems!
> 
> regards!



yes! FC-20 is changing all the time, and better and better~~~
FC-20 has learn much from JF-17 like its air intake
I also believe that JF-17 will be better


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## p4kistan

do we know if the fc20 will have tvc for a fact or not


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## SBD-3

p4kistan said:


> do we know if the fc20 will have tvc for a fact or not



Yes if FC-20 is equipped with WS-10A then it will have TVC ability.


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## Arsalan

but there is a big IF involved in this?


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## hj786

p4kistan said:


> do we know if the fc20 will have tvc for a fact or not



We can't be 100&#37; sure until we actually see it with TVC, decisions are changed all the time. 
All we know right now is that Air Chief Marshal Tanvir M. Ahmad told a newspaper that FC-20 would have "Russian TVC technology". 

We also know the Chinese are making a 3D TVC nozzle for their engines:
www.kanwa.com 4G fighter engine, TVC nozzle


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## SBD-3

Is there going to be AL-31F powering FC-20? Hell no! IAF is gonna be furious about it better to have M-88 and what about the new russian AL-41F it has supercruise capability as well


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## Arsalan

hj786 said:


> We can't be 100% sure until we actually see it with TVC, decisions are changed all the time.
> All we know right now is that Air Chief Marshal Tanvir M. Ahmad told a newspaper that FC-20 would have "Russian TVC technology".
> 
> We also know the Chinese are making a 3D TVC nozzle for their engines:
> www.kanwa.com 4G fighter engine, TVC nozzle



if everything is ok with russian engine then we may be getting the TVC! i say this because the chines TVC will still not be mature by the time we start getting the FC20 and therefore it is more likely to happen if the russian can give it to us!
as a first thought it may come to many mindes that rusians wont have any problem in supplying us with engines as they have already done so for the JF17 engine despite all the efforts of india! but, on the other hand we may face a different scenario! with a tender and deal of 126 MRCA on the cards and Mig35 as contender the russians might not be willing to upset the indians and indians on the other hand may keep on delaying the project just to spoil any Pak-China-Russia relations/deal!

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> if everything is ok with russian engine then we may be getting the TVC! i say this because the chines TVC will still not be mature by the time we start getting the FC20 and therefore it is more likely to happen if the russian can give it to us!
> as a first thought it may come to many mindes that rusians wont have any problem in supplying us with engines as they have already done so for the JF17 engine despite all the efforts of india! but, on the other hand we may face a different scenario! with a tender and deal of 126 MRCA on the cards and Mig35 as contender the russians might not be willing to upset the indians and indians on the other hand may keep on delaying the project just to spoil any Pak-China-Russia relations/deal!
> 
> regards!


Ok what else then?


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## hj786

arsalanaslam123 said:


> if everything is ok with russian engine then we may be getting the TVC! i say this because the chines TVC will still not be mature by the time we start getting the FC20 and therefore it is more likely to happen if the russian can give it to us!
> as a first thought it may come to many mindes that rusians wont have any problem in supplying us with engines as they have already done so for the JF17 engine despite all the efforts of india! but, on the other hand we may face a different scenario! with a tender and deal of 126 MRCA on the cards and Mig35 as contender the russians might not be willing to upset the indians and indians on the other hand may keep on delaying the project just to spoil any Pak-China-Russia relations/deal!
> 
> regards!



The Chinese engine might well be mature by the delivery date 2014-15. They have ~5 years to develop it and according to the Chinese, they are already flying WS-10A in some fighters. They are even developing new engines based on it for larger transport aircraft.


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## Munir

What a miracle that Pakistani FC20 will be delivered in 2014-2015...


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## SBD-3

Munir said:


> What a miracle that Pakistani FC20 will be delivered in 2014-2015...



to me it looks like other engine than Russian one perhaps that's the main reason to me


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## sancho

hasnain0099 said:


> to me it looks like other engine than Russian one perhaps that's the main reason to me


But which other engine than the AL 31 (between 120 - 130 Kn thrust), or an Chinese would be usefull?
M88 from Rafale - only 75 Kn with afterburner so far

EJ 200 from EF - reports for LCA MK 2 engines say something between 90 and 100 Kn 

GE 414 from F18SH - 98 Kn, but latest reports officially talks about a 20% increase

F100-PW-229 from F16 block 52 - 129 Kn

and the Saturn 117 from the latest Su 35 - 142 Kn

The only engine which wouldn't mean a setback in thrust would be the US (which are more than unlikely) and the Saturn 117, which I personally doubt, because I think it will be on offer for MKI upg. 

Will be interesting to see what the final specs will look like (what radar, what engine).


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## SBD-3

sancho said:


> But which other engine than the AL 31 (between 120 - 130 Kn thrust), or an Chinese would be usefull?
> M88 from Rafale - only 75 Kn with afterburner so far
> 
> EJ 200 from EF - reports for LCA MK 2 engines say something between 90 and 100 Kn
> 
> GE 414 from F18SH - 98 Kn, but latest reports officially talks about a 20% increase
> 
> F100-PW-229 from F16 block 52 - 129 Kn
> 
> and the Saturn 117 from the latest Su 35 - 142 Kn
> 
> The only engine which wouldn't mean a setback in thrust would be the US (which are more than unlikely) and the Saturn 117, which I personally doubt, because I think it will be on offer for MKI upg.
> 
> Will be interesting to see what the final specs will look like (what radar, what engine).



Radar will defenatly be an AESA Vixen 500/1000 or other Engine will be WS-10A.M88 will go into Thunder


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> Radar will defenatly be an AESA Vixen 500/1000 or other Engine will be WS-10A.M88 will go into Thunder



is there any offical report to support it that you know of or is this a guess??

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> is there any offical report to support it that you know of or is this a guess??
> 
> regards!



Vixen AESA offer cand be verified from wikipedia J-10 however PAF is looking of M-AESA developed by a sweedish co but engine is a pure guess like if J-10B is flown then why is it taking 2014 to be in Pakistan? i think it is engine prob


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> Vixen AESA offer cand be verified from wikipedia J-10 however PAF is looking of M-AESA developed by a sweedish co but engine is a pure guess like if J-10B is flown then why is it taking 2014 to be in Pakistan? i think it is engine prob



hmmm, the engine may well be one of the reason but the main thing is that paksitan wanted massive upgrades and some beleive it to be an aircraft with entirely different specs from the existing J10 platforms!

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> hmmm, the engine may well be one of the reason but the main thing is that paksitan wanted massive upgrades and some beleive it to be an aircraft with entirely different specs from the existing J10 platforms!
> 
> regards!



Not a redesign for sure Avionics upgrade should take that long I am sure PAF is looking for WS-10A


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## SBD-3

Bhai Log here is somthing interesting 


> HONG KONG, Dec. 14 (UPI) -- Is China preparing to export its J-10A fighter aircraft to Iran? Most likely, say military observers in Moscow and Tehran. The Russian Kommersant Daily reported that an Iranian aviation company agent had confirmed that China would export to Iran 24 J-10A fighters between 2008 and 2010 at a price of $1 billion.
> 
> Allowing this information to surface at this time appears intended to embarrass, and warn, the United States. China is sending the message that it too can play the arms export game -- reminding the United States to think twice about its arms sales to Taiwan, especially Block 52 F-16 fighters.
> 
> It is widely known that Iran has been seeking to acquire third-generation fighter aircraft. Not long ago Iran approached Russian aircraft manufacturer Sukhoi, saying the country intended to import as many as 250 Sukhoi fighters. Iran is also sending messages, in the midst of the tussle over its nuclear intentions, that it has strong non-Western allies and shouldn't be trifled with. Iran is taking advantage of U.S.-China friction to cozy up to Beijing and warn the United States and Israel not to take any reckless action.
> 
> Politically, if the sale of the J-10A fighters goes through, it will certainly cause turbulence in U.S.-China relations. Despite this strategic aggressiveness, China will hold to its longstanding policy of biding its time and concealing its military capabilities while trying to minimize Sino-U.S. friction. Therefore, unless a major conflict breaks out in the Taiwan Strait, the United States intervenes militarily and U.S.-China relations deteriorate dramatically, China will somewhat restrain its exports of high-tech weapons, strategic weapons and long-range missiles to Iran at the current stage.
> 
> Technologically, the J-10As are fitted with Russian AL31FN engines. China has signed a contract to procure a new batch of 50 such engines from Russia in 2008, which means China's indigenous WS10A turbofan engine cannot yet meet the requirements of the PLA air force.
> 
> Under this circumstance, Russia will not allow China to use AL31FN engines on the J-10As to be exported to Iran, in order to protect Sukhoi's market. As a consequence, China may have to delay the export of its fighters to Iran until after it perfects the WS10A technology. This is unlikely to happen now or anytime soon.
> 
> Furthermore, the J-10A production lines are now focused on meeting the needs of the PLA air force, and Pakistan will come next. China's production capacity is not yet sufficient to meet the demands of the two air forces for J-10A fighters.
> 
> *Pakistan assisted China in developing the J-10A by providing a thorough understanding of the structure of the F-16 fighter aircraft, which Pakistan has from the United States. Therefore, the Pakistani air force has first access to the J-10A. China and Pakistan also have future plans to jointly develop FC-20 fighters on the basis of the J-10A.*
> The final factor in the speculation about Iran's planned fighter purchase involves Tehran's financial capability. It seems highly suspect that Iran intends to purchase as many as 250 Sukhoi fighters. In building up its air force, Iran has basically followed in the footsteps of China, relying mainly on indigenous production.
> 
> Russia recently provided to Iran 50 RD-33 engines for the development of Iran's indigenous "Lightning" fighter. The speculation that Iran intends to purchase Sukhoi fighters from Russia has been around for quite a long time, but in fact the only Russian combat aircraft that Iran has purchased from Russia are three Su-25UBTs. The contract was reportedly signed in 2005, but this has not been officially confirmed.
> 
> On top of speculations about China's planned export of J-10As to Iran are hints that China has been actively promoting its FBC2 (JH-7A) fighter-bomber to Iran as well, obviously under the same political and military rationale. Nonetheless, this is unlikely to result in any definite deal anytime soon.


Analysis: China eyes J-10A sale to Iran - UPI.com


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## SBD-3

Chinese media reported on 15 April that the Chengdu J-10 fighter was to be fitted with a indigenously-built engine "within this year".

According to the report, a senior official of Chengdu-based 611 Aircraft Design Institute recently told the press that although the early production variant of the J-10 was fitted with a foreign-made engine for lower risk, the fighter would certainly be fitted with a Chinese indigenous engine, and this was likely to happen this year.

Currently the J-10 fighters in service with the PLA Air Force are powered by a Russian-made Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan engine. This means that the aircraft cannot be sold to a foreign customer without Russia&#8217;s consent. Such a limitation was reflected in the sale of another Chinese-made fighter FC-1/JF-17, which also uses the Russian-made engine. To avoid offending its biggest weapon buyer India, Russia was reluctant to allow the fighter powered by its RD93 engine to be exported to Pakistan, causing delays in the delivery of the fighter.

China has been developing its own WS-10A (commercial name: Taihang) turbofan engine for over a decade, but the project has encountered enormous technical difficulties. The engine was only certified for design finalisation in early 2006. Integration of the engine with the J-10 fighter is believed to be underway at Chengdu Aircraft Corporation.

Although the J-10 has yet been offered to the export market, many countries including Pakistan, Thailand, and Sri Lanka have already expressed their interests in this fighter. Once the fighter is fitted with the Chinese indigenous engine, it can be sold to any customer without restriction.



J-10 Fighter to be Fitted with a Chinese-Made Engine - SinoDefence.com


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## SBD-3

*Future Chinese carrier aircraft: Super J-10?*
With work on Chinas first aircraft carrier getting closer to completion, and the well publicized hopes of the PLAN (Chinese Navy) to gain an aircraft carrier capability, we can consider whether the notional J-10C twin engine J-10 development is likely to produce a credible fighter. 

The main competitors to the much rumored (but never substantiated) J-10C (twin engine) are the Su-33 Flanker (Naval) and Mig-29k Fulcrum (Naval). 

Artists impression of the Super-J10: 

Note the wider air intakes and fatter fuselage. 

Enlarging the fuselage/wings to accommodate two engines is likely to increase the airframe weight by around 75% (depending largely on the engines used). Also, navalization (the adding of arrester gear, wing folding mechanisms, beefed up undercarriage etc) is likely to add 3000lb to the overall weight. The increase in internal fuel carriage is not proportionate to the increase in the number of engines, meaning that the aircrafts range is likely to decrease. 

Thrust to weight ratios are likely to improve, and be reflected in a heavier maximum weapons load. 

The basic J-10 uses a single Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F engine which is essentially the same engine as powers the Flanker. This engine produces 27,557 lb static thrust with afterburner, which is extremely powerful. The much rumored Chinese W-10A is (reportedly) actually a copy of this engine with thrust vectoring, closely equivalent to the latest models of AL-31 which produce in the region of 32,000lb static thrust and feature thrust vectoring. The thrust vectoring (steerable) nozzles do add weight however. The first option for the Super-J-10 is thus twin AL-31FUs (or W-10A equiv) which we will call Option1. I estimate that this would increase the airframe weight by about 75% and allow a 20% increase in internal fuel. 

Another option is to use a smaller engine such as the RD-33/34 which powers the Fulcrum and FC-1 fighters, and is also available with thrust vectoring nozzles. This engine produces 18,300lb static thrust with afterburner (19,180lb emergency thrust). I estimate that this option (Option2) would increase the airframe weight by around 50% and increase internal fuel by around 20%. The airframe would also be slimmer than Option1 and likely to incur less drag. 

Option1 would have a truly fantastic thrust to weight ratio, even better than either the Mig or Sukhoi. Option 2 would have a terrible thrust to weight ratio for a fighter, eliminating it from further analysis (even worse than the single engine J-10A which itself is very poor for a fighter). The issue here is that unlike the Sukhoi, Option1 would have to routinely operate with external fuel tanks (see below), significantly reducing the effective thrust to weight ratio when compared to the Sukhoi this is the Achilles heal of the design. 

Other performance issues 
Option1s massive increase in power over the J-10A is likely to increase its maximum speeds, probably to the region of Mach 1.25; similar to the Mig and Sukhoi. Its rate of climb would be increased and the thrust vectoring control would further enhance agility. And it would be capable of carrying a heavier weapons load. Range is the obvious area of concern. The airframe holds significantly less fuel than the Su-33 (which could have the exact same powerplant). The increase in fuel consumption is not matched by the increase in internal fuel capacity, thus making a limited ranged aircraft even more reliant on external fuel tanks. 

too big and yet too small? 
Where it looses out to the Mig, though not the Sukhoi, is overall size. Space is at a premium onboard an aircraft carrier; the bigger and heavier the aircraft, the fewer you can carry. The Mig is around 40% lighter and much smaller than Option1. Whilst Option1 is marginally lighter, and a fair bit smaller than the Su-33, it also has a smaller nose, prohibiting the employment of the massive but extremely capable NO-11M Phased Array radar. Redesign of the forward fuselage to accommodate larger radar would drastically increase weight and bring the aircrafts thrust to weight ratio to around about the same as the Su-33, or lower. 

Conclusion 
On paper a twin AL-31 powered Super J-10 appears an impressive naval fighter. It would have excellent performance and benefit from an awesome thrust to weight ratio, once itd ditched its drop tanks. But it would have to carry drop tanks for nearly all missions, significantly detracting from its strike and swing-role potential. And being rather large and heavy, a carrier could carry fewer of them than say the Mig. It would also not be able to match the Sukhoi in terms of radar performance.


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## SBD-3



Reactions: Like Like:
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## SBD-3

WEI Gang, Minister of Equipment Department of the Air Force, Major-General recently said that the 60th anniversary of the National Day parade this year, the Air Force will display the "-10 F" fighter planes. According to foreign media, said the follow-up J -10 fighter jets are also being rolled out progressively improved in the fuselage of some local details have been improved, making the aircraft's performance is also greatly enhanced. 

Entered in April 2009, the J -10 fighter has improved some pictures circulating on the Internet. All along, the Chinese have developed three generations of J -10 fighter so proud of, and the three generations of fighter planes as part of its next-generation J-10B model aircraft, its performance may have reached the standard of the three generations of half-planes. 

April 2009, Pakistan's "grand strategy research institutions" had published an article by a researcher from the organization written by M Hussein, the article focused on an analysis of the main J-10B to improve the process and improved performance. 

The article said that J-10B fighter aircraft -10 F and early difference is mainly reflected in its supersonic inlet, the J-10B fighter jets FC-1/JF-17 the inlet and the inlet is similar to DSI . In addition, the J-10B fighter aircraft nose and oval-shaped, with the F-16 fighter plane nose is quite similar, but slightly downward-sloping. J-10B aircraft infrared search and tracking system installed in its nose above the machine. Radome sloping line seems to be active phased array radar. 

J-10B fighter wing on the vertical stability of the installation of a new housing small electronic countermeasures system, and the stability seems a long wing and the end was "shark fin" shape. J-10B aircraft electronic warfare systems of housing and the JF-17 fighter similar jacket. J-10B fighter wing abdominal 2 has also been extended. Vertical stability of a longer wing and abdominal aerodynamic wing device seems to benefit from the improved supersonic inlet - the aircraft manufacturer for the stronger side force. 

F-11B fighter proud head-up display (HUD) seems to have been assembled in the J-10B fighter. Although it is impossible to confirm this, but the J-10B fighter cockpit appears to have been carried out large-scale re-engineering. In addition, with the exception of the vertical wings on the stability of the electronic countermeasures system installed outside the housing, the tail of J-10B aircraft position processes seem to be installed on the incoming missile warning device. Moreover, the J-10B aircraft fuselage section also installed the forward-looking infrared sensor. The right side of the cockpit aircraft re-emerged in the design of satellite communication devices. 

The article said that from the current J -10 fighter development, the J-10B fighter retractable refueling probe may be located in the left side of the aircraft, but the latest photos from this part do not see. Internet spread out these photos also showed that the J-10B aircraft are equipped with the wing below the new pod. The new pod has a wide variety of applications, from flying a bigger drop tank to air-to-surface missile
china car: Pakistan Experts J-10B: F -10 than a significant improvement plans


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## SBD-3

Electronic Aviation - Chengdu J-10 - Gallery


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## TOPGUN

Nice pic!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## muse

I'm find the similarity of the J10 and Saab Viggen interesting - BTW, I understand the Viggen was once a candidate for the PAF along with some production facilities, before the Mirage was chosen.


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## SBD-3

muse said:


> I'm find the similarity of the J10 and Saab Viggen interesting - BTW, I understand the Viggen was once a candidate for the PAF along with some production facilities, before the Mirage was chosen.



what similarity?
i dont see much


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> what similarity?
> i dont see much




the angle from which the picture is take make them look similar as far as the canards and delta wings are concerned but apart from this there is noting in common in the two planes!
specially if you see the side on view the difference is clear!











look at the different shape of nose
the tail is of different shape and design
the bubble canopy is absent
even the canards and the delta wing appear to be differnet in view
and 
not to mention the entirely different air intakes!

so the bottom line is:
*sir muse,* sir jee there is no similarity!!! 

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the angle from which the picture is take make them look similar as far as the canards and delta wings are concerned but apart from this there is noting in common in the two planes!
> specially if you see the side on view the difference is clear!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> look at the different shape of nose
> the tail is of different shape and design
> the bubble canopy is absent
> even the canards and the delta wing appear to be differnet in view
> and
> not to mention the entirely different air intakes!
> 
> so the bottom line is:
> *sir muse,* sir jee there is no similarity!!!
> 
> regards!



the canards are stationary/fixed no DSI as well looks more like mirrage with fixed canards


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## SBD-3

here s another one


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## SBD-3

President Asif Ali Zardari has left Pakistan on a four-day visit to China today. During this visit to china he will explore avenues for cooperation with China in the fields of energy and agriculture resources. An 11-member delegation will accompany Zardari. President Zardari will hold talks with the Chinese counterpart about the acquisition of two squadrons of Fc-20 fighter jets which are customized version of Chinese J-10 jets on easy terms in the first phase of cooperation. Pakistan air force has an eventual requirement of five squadrons of Fc-20. 
These fighter jets from china will be powered by the Russian AL-31 turbojet engine with thrust vectoring technology. First of these jets will land within one year on the agreement on final aspects of technology and finances.Fc-20 will serve as frontline fighter jet equipped with AESA radar, advance BVRAAM and WVRAAM for PAF to counter Indian Su-30MKI. 
ASIAN DEFENCE: President Zardari to discuss the purchase Fc-20 for PAF


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## Manticore

hasnain0099 said:


> President Asif Ali Zardari has left Pakistan on a four-day visit to China today. During this visit to china he will explore avenues for cooperation with China in the fields of energy and agriculture resources. An 11-member delegation will accompany Zardari. President Zardari will hold talks with the Chinese counterpart about the acquisition of two squadrons of Fc-20 fighter jets which are customized version of Chinese J-10 jets on easy terms in the first phase of cooperation.* Pakistan air force has an eventual requirement of five squadrons of Fc-20. *
> These fighter jets from china will be powered by the Russian AL-31 turbojet engine with *thrust vectoring technology*. First of these jets will land *within one year* on the agreement on final aspects of technology and finances.Fc-20 will serve as frontline fighter jet equipped with *AESA radar,* advance BVRAAM and WVRAAM for PAF to counter Indian Su-30MKI.
> ASIAN DEFENCE: President Zardari to discuss the purchase Fc-20 for PAF


 around 100 aesa fc20s?? thats a relief


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## TaimiKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> President Asif Ali Zardari has left Pakistan on a four-day visit to China today. During this visit to china he will explore avenues for cooperation with China in the fields of energy and agriculture resources. An 11-member delegation will accompany Zardari. President Zardari will hold talks with the Chinese counterpart about the acquisition of two squadrons of Fc-20 fighter jets which are customized version of Chinese J-10 jets on easy terms in the first phase of cooperation. Pakistan air force has an eventual requirement of five squadrons of Fc-20.
> These fighter jets from china will be powered by the Russian AL-31 turbojet engine with thrust vectoring technology. First of these jets will land within one year on the agreement on final aspects of technology and finances.Fc-20 will serve as frontline fighter jet equipped with AESA radar, advance BVRAAM and WVRAAM for PAF to counter Indian Su-30MKI.
> ASIAN DEFENCE: President Zardari to discuss the purchase Fc-20 for PAF





February 20, 2009 news posted today ?????

Thats a very very old news.


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## TaimiKhan

muse said:


> I'm find the similarity of the J10 and Saab Viggen interesting - BTW, I understand the Viggen was once a candidate for the PAF along with some production facilities, before the Mirage was chosen.










I think now there is some similarity, WINGS


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## wangrong




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## SBD-3

On training mission ryt


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## SBD-3

here is some more interesting article on J-10 by Australian Think tank


> *J-10 the Sinocanards*
> The pinnacle of indigenous Chinese fighter design is the Chengdu J-10, a single engine delta-canard agile multirole fighter which was alleged to be a clone of the IAI Lavi design, enhanced through alleged access to Pakistani F-16A examples. Even cursory comparison of the J-10 and Lavi indicates that 'Lavi-cloning' is not the case, even if the fighters share the same general configuration [1], [2]. The nose and vertical tail shape are however near enough to the F-16 to raise serious questions.
> 
> Development of the J-10 commenced in 1988, with the first prototype flying in 1996, and production planned to commence in 2005. The J-10 occupies the same niche as the F-16C/D/E/F and the Rafale, being smaller than the F/A-18E/F and Eurofighter. It is to form the low end of a hi-lo mix with the Su-27SK/J-11/Su-30MKK and be used for air combat and strike roles, replacing the J-6, Q-5 and J-7 in frontline combat regiments.
> 
> Early models are powered by the Russian AL-31F common to the Su-27/30, with Chinse sources claiming the indigenous WS-10 fan will be introduced later. The design is claimed to use a quadruplex digital fly-by-wire control system, a glass cockpit similar in layout to the Gripen is employed, and a HMS is expected to be used. Chinese sources claim the Phazotron Zhuk series and indigenous JL-10A to be the likely candidate radars for production.
> 
> The J-10 represents an important milestone for China's industry - it is modern combat aircraft competitive in cardinal parameters with current EU production technology, and is clearly a unique indigenous design despite the comments of Western critics.* Just like the Su-27/MiG-29 blended the best ideas in the teen series types, the J-10 blends the best ideas from the Eurocanard series and the F-16, to produce a high performance low cost mass production fighter. *While the J-10 will not have the strategic impact of the long range Sukhois, it is well matched to the PLA-AF's established Soviet-like all-arms warfare doctrine, providing local air superiority over land forces and close air support / battlefield interdiction capabilities. With the likelihood of large scale production, we could see in time well over a thousand airframes built and exports made to various established PRC clients in the region.
> 
> *In close combat the J-10 is apt to match or outperform the teen series fighters, and match the Eurocanards.* Its principal limitation will be in its sizing and combat radius performance - the top end roles being ceded to the Sukhois.
> 
> 
> With the J-10 China has finally joined the club of nations capable of designing a modern agile combat aircraft.


Chengdu J-10 Sinocanard
there is a snap of J-10 and SU-27 taking off togather what does it shows???


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## SBD-3

> Description: The J-10 is a lightweight, single-engine, multi-role fighter developed by Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) and 611 Institute for the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). The high-performance J-10 aircraft has been designed as an air superiority fighter with air-to-surface capability. The aircraft's development started in the mid-1980s based upon the cancelled Israeli Air Force Lavi lightweight fighter. In the 1990s, the Russians joined the J-10 project providing the AL-31FN as the replacement engine for Chinese incapable WS-10 turbofan. The first J-10 prototype made its maiden flight in March 1998 and the aircraft achieved initial operational capability (IOC) with PLAAF by late 2003/early 2004.
> 
> The J-10 aerodynamic configuration is based on a delta-wing with canard foreplanes design with a single ventral air intake. All in, the J-10 is very similar to Eurofighter/Typhoon multi-role aircraft being procured by European countries. The J-10 aircraft is made of composite materials resulting in a high thrust-to-weight ratio with enhanced maneuverability and low drag thanks to its advanced aerodynamics. The flight control system is based on a 4-channel fly-by-wire (FBW) system. An engine digital control system provides for fuel consumption efficiency. The J-10 has been fitted with a glass cockpit and pulse-Doppler radar system capable of tracking 10 targets at ranges of up 100 km while engaging four of them simultaneously.
> 
> The J-10 aircraft has 11 external stations for weapons and auxiliary fuel tanks. For air-to-air engagements the aircraft can be equipped with PL-8 (a version of Israel's Python 3) infrared-guided short-range and PL-12 radar active medium-range missiles. Laser guided bombs, free fall bombs and rockets are provided for the air-to-ground attack role. In addition, the J-10 is provided with a single-barrel 23mm internal gun. Future plans call for the installation of the improved Chinese-built WS-10A turbofan in lieu of AL-31FN. The J-10 might be fitted with a detachable air refueling probe to extend its radius of operation or carrying a greater load of weapons. A pilot's helmet-mounted sight system is under study.
> 
> *The single-seat J-10A, dubbed Vigorous Dragon, is an air superiority fighter with capabilities and performance that resemble closer to those of F-15, F-16, F-18, Mig-29 and Su-27 aircraft. The J-10 has been designed as the replacement for aging J-7 and Q-5 aircraft within the PLAAF with an estimated initial requirement for 300 aircraft. The F-10 designation refers to a export version. The J-10B is an improved version highlighting enhanced maneuverability and equipped with AL-31FN-M1 engine featuring thrust vectoring control. The J-10B maiden flight is expected in 2007.* Currently, CAC's assembly line is delivering 2 to 3 J-10 aircraft per month a second assembly may double that figure with approximately 60 J-10s delivered per year at full rate production




J-10A / F-10, J-10B, Vigorous Dragon


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## Fennecus




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## wangrong

---------- Post added at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:35 PM ----------


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## a1b2c145

hasnain0099 said:


> here s another one



i have more~~


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## grey boy 2

Nice pictures of J10, great work brother, J10b next?


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## niaz

J-10 looks great but reminds of Israel Lavi aircraft


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## SBD-3

J-10, Chengdu 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Photo from Chinese Defence Today 

J-10 (Project 10/Project 8810?) is a multi-role single-engine fighter being developed by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) and 611 Institute. It has been selected by PLAAF as the next generation fighter to replace the obsolete J-7 fighter and Q-5 attack aircraft. The aircraft appears to have an Su-27 style nose and retangular air intake, an AL-31F type engine, twin nosewheels, and a distinct low-visibility camouflage color scheme. The aircraft also has a large vertical tail plus twin F-16 style ventral stablizers believed to provide greater stability at high AoA. Its fuselage looks considerably longer compared to Israeli Lavi. However its bubble canopy appears less elevated than that of F-16, suggesting the pilot has yet to possess a true 360° view. Unlike J-7E with double-delta wings, it appears to have a pair of inverted gull wings (i.e. the inner portion extends slightly downward, while the outer portion extends flat). Two red dummy PL-8 AAMs are regularly seen carried under the wing as well. 

The J-10 project was started in the mid-80s based on the experience (tailless delta wing and canard foreplanes) with J-9 which was cancelled earlier in favor of the less risky J-7C/MIG-21MF project. An early model of J-10 revealed a Mirage 2000 style intake with a center shock cone for better high speed performance and a Lavi style tail section, suggesting a possible connection with the cancelled Israeli fighter (however this was firmly denied by both parties). The change indicates that J-10 has gone through at least one major redesign in its 10-year development period from the initial conventional layout (as an air-superiority fighter) to the latest semi-stealthy design (as a multi-role fighter). This change may reflect a shift of its potential adversaries from former Soviet MiG-29/ Su-27 to current American F-15/F-16 after end of the Cold War. 

The new design will certainly be fitted with advanced avionics including a "glass cockpit" (1 wide-angle HUD + 2 monochrome MFD + 1 color MFD), HMS, HOTAS, GPS/INS, air data computer, RWR, digital quadruplex FBW, digital fuel management system, 1553B databus, and a new PD fire-control radar (search distance 52~148 km, track 8 targets simutaneously), which can be either Israeli Elta EL/M 2035, Russian Phazotron Zhuk derivative (Zhemchoug?), or the indigenous JL-10A from LETRI (with technical assistance from Phazotron?). A variety of newly developed air-to-air (e.g. PL-8 short-range IR-guided AAM and PL-11/PL-12/SD-10 medium-range radar-guided AAM) and air-to-surface weapons (e.g. C-701 TV-guided ASM & LGBs) are also expected to be carried under 11 hardpoints. Although it was believed to be powered initially by a 27,560 lb/12,500 kg thrust AL-31FN turbofan, a modified AL-31F which itself powers Su-27/J-11, Russia reportedly had denied China the license to produce the engine locally. As the result, an indigenous engine (WS-10A?) may be fitted later when the serial production starts. 

*Some US military analysts believe that J-10 could pose a serious challenge to the F/A-18E in terms of maneuverability. Some specifications of J-10 are (speculated): empty weight 9,750kg, max TO weight 18,500kg, internal fuel 4,500kg, external load 4,500kg, g load -3~+9, max speed Mach 2.0 (high altitude)/Mach 1.2 (sea level), take-off distance under 500m, combat radius 463~566 km. *
The development of J-10 has proven to be tortuous. The prototype was rumored to have first flown in 1996, but the project suffered a serious setback in late 1997 when the 02 prototype lost control and crashed, as the result of certain system failure, presumably with either the FBW system or the engine. After careful redesign and extensive ground test, the successful flight of the new prototype (J-10A?) took place on March 23, 1998, which put the project back on the track. Initially 6 prototypes (serial numbers 1001-1006) were built undergoing various static and flight tests at CAC in Chengdu and at the CFTE in Yanliang. Subsequently 3 more prototypes were built (1007-1009) as the project is moving to the pre-production phase while PLAAF remains fully committed. A carrier based version (J-10B?) was rumored but never confirmed. The J-10 entered service at the end of 2005. The first J-10 in production standard first flew on June 28, 2002. 

Type: Chendgu J-10
Country: China
Function: Fighter
Year: 2003
Crew: 1
Engines: 1 * Lyulka Saturn AL-31F turbofan, rated at 79.43 kN dry and 122.58 kN with afterburning
Wing Span: 8.78 m
Wing area: 33.10 m2
Canard area: 5.45 m2
Length: 14.57 m
Height: 4.78 m 
Ceiling: 18000 m
Empty Weight: 9750 kg
Max.Weight: 18400 kg
Speed: Mach 2.0
g-Limits: +9/-3 g
Ferry Range: 1850 km
Combat radius : 550 km
Armament: 1 * g 23 mm, 4500 kg payload on 11 hardpoints



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NAME:
PLA Designation: J-10 Westernised Name: F-10 

MANUFACTURER:
Chengdu Aircraft Industry Co. (CAC) 

TYPE:
Single-engine, single-seater multirole fighter capable for interception, air superiority, and ground attack missions. 

PROGRAMME:
The Chengdu (CAC) J-10 fighter, China's fourth generation multi-role fighter aircraft, will be the most advanced fighter in the PLAAF's inventory once introduced to service. The J-10 programme (Project No.10) has been under way for over a decade. Six prototypes have been built by 2001 and these aircraft are reported being undertaking extensive test flights at CAC's test site. 

The J-10 programme can trace its origins back to the J-9, a Mach 2.5 canard-delta fighter, which is a blend mixture of MiG-23 and Saab JA-37 Viggen. The J-9 project was transferred from Shenyang to Chengdu in 1969 and was later cancelled due to insufficient funds. 

Work on the J-10 began in the 1980s as a counter to the Soviet Union's fourth-generation fighters, the MiG-29 and Su-27. The original mission was air superiority, but the break-up of the Soviet Union and changing requirements shifted development towards a multirole fighter to replace the Shenyang J-6 (MiG-19) and Chengdu J-7 (MiG-21), which are backbone of China's air force. 

Originally based on the cancelled Israel Avation Industry (IAI) 'Lavi' lightweight fighter, the J-10's development has experienced some major re-design work due to the changes of requirements. Some estimates project that the as many as 300 aircraft will be produced for the Chinese air force, although reports suggest as few as 30 aircraft will have been built by 2005 - a drop in the ocean of J-6s and J-7s in the PLAAF's inventory waiting to be replaced. 

DESIGN FEATURES:
The J-10 has a rectangle belly air intake, with low-mounted delta wings, a pair of front canard wings, a large vertical fin, and two underfuselage fins. The design is aerodynamically unstable, to provide a high level of agility, low drag and enhanced lift. The pilot controls the aircraft through a computerised digital fly-by-wire system, which provides artificial stabilisation and gust elevation to give good control characteristics throughout the flight envelope. 

COCKPIT:
The J-10's cockpit is fitted with three flat-panel liquid crystal multifunction displays (MFDs), including one colour MFD, wide field-of-view head-up display (HUD), and possibly helmet-mounted sight (HMS). It is not know whether the HMS is the basic Ukrainian Arsenel HMS copied by China's Luoyang Avionics, or a new helmet display featured briefly at the 2000 Zhuhai air show. 

The pilot manipulates the J-10 by the 'Iron Bird' flight-control system, a quadruple (four channels) digital fly-by-wire (FBW) based on the active control technology tested by the Shenyang J-8IIACT demonstrator aircraft. The pilot will also be aided by advanced autopilot and air data computer. 

RADAR: 
Several options are available for the J-10 fighter. These include the Russian Phazotron Zhuk-10PD, a version of the system in later Su-27s, with 160 km search range and ability to track up to six targets. Israel has offered its Elta EL/M-2035 radar for competition. In addition, China has also developed its own design JL-10A, which might be assisted by Russian technology. 

For low-level navigation and precision strike, a forward-looking infrared and laser designation pod is likely to be carried F-16-style on an inlet stores station. A Chinese designed pod similar to the Israeli Rafael Litening was revealed at the 1998 Zhuhai air show. 

ENGINE: 
The single-seat, single-engine J-10 is similar in size to the Lockheed Martin F-16C/D. The initial batch J-10s are going to be powered by 27,500 lb-thrust (120 kN) Russian Lyulka Saturn AL-31F turbofan, the same power plant also being used by Chinese air force Sukhoi Su-27s and Su-30s. Some report indicated that 100 AL-31F engines with features specially designed for the J-10 have already been delivered to China in early 2001. 

China is also developing its own WS-10 turbofan power plant, and it could be fitted on the later versions of the J-10. According to the U.S. intelligence, the J-10 might be slightly more manoeuvrable than the F-18E/F, which is slated to become the U.S. Navy's next principal combat aircraft. 

ARMARMENTS: 
The J-10 has 11 stores stations - six under the wing and five under the fuselage. The inner wing and centre fuselage stations are plumped to carry external fuel tanks. Fixed weapon is a 23-mm inner cannon hidden inside fuselage. 

In addition to the PL-8 short-range infrared-guided air-to-air missile, which was derived from Israeli Rafael Python-3 technology, the J-10 could also carry Russian Vympel R-73 (AA-11) short-range and R-77 (AA-12) medium-range missiles carried by Chinese Flankers. It may also be fitted with indigenously developed PL-11 or PL-12 medium-range AAM for BVR combat. 

For ground attack missions, the J-10 will carry laser-guided bombs, YJ-8K anti-ship missile, as well as various unguided bombs and rockets. Some missiles surrently under development such as the YJ-9 ramjet-powered anti-radiation missile may also be carried by the J-10. 

UPGRADE:
An all-aspect vectored-thrust version of the AL-31F was revealed for the first time at Zhuhai Air Show 1998, leading to speculation that this advanced engine may wind up on the J-10, potentially conferring phenomenal manoeuvrability. It also projects that a naval variant of the J-10, perhaps with twin-engines, may equip a possible Chinese aircraft carrier. China might also be considering upgrading the J-10 with more advanced phased-array radar to improve its combat capabilities. 



SPECIFICATIONS
Crew: One
Dimentions: N/A
Weight: N/A
Powerplant: One Lyulka Saturn AL-31F turbofan, rated at 17,857 lb (79.43 kN) dry and 27,557 lb st (122.58 kN) with afterburning
Maximum Speed: Mach 1.2 (sea-level) or Mach 2.0 (high altitude)
Range: Combat radius over 550 km Service
Ceiling: 18000 m
Maximum Climb Rate: N/A
G Limit: -3/+9 G
Avionics: One PD radar (Russian Phazotron Zhuk-10 or Israeli EL/M-2035), with a detect-range 52.5~148 km, being able to track up to 8 targets simultaneously
Fixed Weapon: One 23 mm internal cannon
Stores Stations: 11, six under the wing and five under the fuselage, up to 4,500 kg
Air-to-Air Missiles: PL-8, PL-9, Python-4, R-73, R-77
Ground Attack Weapons: Laser-guided bomb, YJ-81 (C-801) anti-ship missile
Chengdu J-10


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## SBD-3

The J-10 is a fourth-generation multi-role fighter, produced by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Co. (CAC). The secretive program started in the late '80s, and is reportedly based on the Israeli Lavi fighter, Israels attempt to develop its own F-16. Pakistan also provided F-16 technology, which was given to the PLAAF as part of a secret military trade deal between Pakistan and China. 


*
A two-seat J-10B fighter-trainer version first flew in December 2003, and in early 2006 Jane's reported that a more advanced version of the J-10 is planned. Russian sources told Jane's the new J-10 version is called the Super-10, and has a more powerful engine, thrust-vector control, stronger airframe and passive phased-array radar. *

Dispite the fact that the program got off with a slow start, and is based on old, foreign technology, *many experts now believe the J-10 has the potential of becoming one of the most significant fighters in the next few decades.*
Air-Attack.com :: Chengdu J-10 Factsheet

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> President Asif Ali Zardari has left Pakistan on a four-day visit to China today. During this visit to china he will explore avenues for cooperation with China in the fields of energy and agriculture resources. An 11-member delegation will accompany Zardari. President Zardari will hold talks with the Chinese counterpart about the acquisition of two squadrons of Fc-20 fighter jets which are customized version of Chinese J-10 jets on easy terms in the first phase of cooperation. Pakistan air force has an eventual requirement of five squadrons of Fc-20.
> These fighter jets from china will be powered by the Russian AL-31 turbojet engine with thrust vectoring technology. First of these jets will land within one year on the agreement on final aspects of technology and finances.Fc-20 will serve as frontline fighter jet equipped with AESA radar, advance BVRAAM and WVRAAM for PAF to counter Indian Su-30MKI.
> ASIAN DEFENCE: President Zardari to discuss the purchase Fc-20 for PAF




well these are the comments posted on this reports on the site:



> *Anonymous said...*
> from where you got this news? I don see it reported anywhere





> *February 20, 2009 10:48 AM
> ASIAN DEFENCE said... *
> First I got this news from my own sources which I consider reliable and you are wrong this news is reported by different Pakistani news channels in local language. You might not see the deal signing ceremony in his visit as there are few issue related to final avionics configuration of Fc-20. PAF pilots are conducting lots of trials of modified J-10 and are helping Chinese side to meet its requirements. One thing my source was sure was that by mid next year(most likely by 23rd March ) PAF will have its first operation squadron of Fc-20. PAF has held its option for 18 Block 52+ F-16 C to save money for this deal and now china is also offering soft loan for the purchase.



i guess this sayts it all! nothing to get excited about.
moreover this was posted way back in February and we havent heard of any thing regards the deal being finalized so i suggest we should sit tight as the will not be comming before 2014-2015! nothing public about FC20 as yet!

i hope you people get the point!
anyway tanks for the post (though a bit too old and unreliable  )

regards!


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## Arsalan

niaz said:


> J-10 looks great but reminds of Israel Lavi aircraft



it surely have taken some of its designed features from the LAVI!
it have been discussed already!

regards!


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## SBD-3

Musharraf Visits China: Current Issues In Pakistan-China Relations
by Richard Fisher, Jr.
Published on February 25th, 2006
ARTICLES

On the eve of President George W. Bush&#8217;s visit to India, Afghanistan and Pakistan the first week of March, Pakistan&#8217;s President Pervez Musharraf visited China from February 19 to 24. While public reports of his visit reveal little of its substance, it can be assumed that Musharraf and Chinese leaders addressed a range of strategic, nuclear, military, as well as economic concerns. However, with both Washington and Beijing in a galloping competition to court Delhi&#8217;s strategic alignment, Islamabad is anxious as well to seek assurances and added benefits from both its main strategic partners. At the same time, Beijing and Washington, from differing perspectives, want Pakistan&#8217;s leadership to crack down on terrorist groups that it is often unwilling to oppose.

Prior to President Musharraf&#8217;s visit some effort was made to highlight that 2006 marks the 55th year of formal China-Pakistan relations. In the post Cold War era, especially following the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, it is China which has emerged as Pakistan&#8217;s most important strategic guarantor vis-a-via its much larger and longstanding rival India. China was the source of initial design information for Pakistan&#8217;s nuclear weapons, assisted the building of its nuclear technology complex, and has enabled Pakistan to build three types of solid-fuel ballistic missiles which can deliver nuclear weapons. China is Pakistan&#8217;s the most important source of modern conventional weaponry as well as a key source of trade and investment. And for China, a nuclear missile armed Pakistan stokes a continued over-arching strategic preoccupation in Delhi with its traditional rival, which diverts Delhi as Beijing builds relationships of future strategic importance in Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Burma, Nepal and Iran, which all serve to surround India.

Following the Al-Qaeda led attacks of 9/11/01 and the subsequent U.S.-led War on Terror, President Bush sought to accelerate a new strategic alignment with India, with special stress on counter-terrorism and increased military cooperation as a hedge against a potentially more dangerous China. U.S. officials have openly stated their intention "to help India become a major world power in the 21st century."[1] At the same time Bush pursued a more vigorous engagement with Pakistan, which was needed as a staging point for operations to defeat the Taliban regime in Afghanistan in late 2001. Since then the Bush Administration has ended U.S. sanctions imposed after Pakistan&#8217;s 1997 nuclear tests (as it has done with India), committed to provide over $3 billion in economic and military aid from 2003 to 2007, and has resumed the sale of weaponry embargoed in 1990 like advanced Lockheed-Martin F-16 jet fighters and Lockheed-Martin P-3 anti-submarine patrol aircraft. Following Pakistan&#8217;s devastating October 8, 2005 earthquake the U.S. committed to providing $200 million in emergency assistance. Washington hopes that by promoting democracy in Pakistan that it can strengthen a greater regional democratic trend.

Both China and Russia reacted with alarm to the rapid U.S. move into Central Asia. Despite the seeming contradiction of having made Pakistan a nuclear missile power, China has sought to revive relations with India by stressing trade and investment and appearing to allow concessions on long-standing border disputes. China also led the formation of the Shanghai-based Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) in June 2001, originally comprising China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, but expanded in 2005 to include India, Pakistan, Iran and Mongolia as "observers." As largescale China-Russia military exercises were held in China in August 2005, it is reasonable to consider that China hopes to lead the SCO into becoming a military-economic entente powerful enough to sway India away from the U.S orbit.

It is against this backdrop that China might be justified in viewing its role as Pakistan&#8217;s strategic nuclear guarantor as an increasing liability. This should certainly worry Islamabad, which does not have the market, economic dynamism or geostrategic potential India can offer China. Nevertheless, while the prospects are low for a dramatic improvement in China-India relations that would diminish Chinese strategic support for Pakistan, Islamabad is keen to preserve and strengthen its unique strategic relationship with Beijing. Initial reviews of Musharraf&#8217;s visit indicate that China will sustain that steadfast strategic support.

Allied Rhetoric

Upon their meeting on February 20, Chinese President Hu Jintao called Musharraf an "old friend of the Chinese people" and praised him for making "an important contribution to the development of our relations". But in an even stronger statement, Pakistan&#8217;s Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmad told a Chinese TV interviewer that Pakistan will stand beside China if the United States ever tries to "besige" it.[2] While there has not yet been any official Pakistani elaboration on this statement, at face value it appears to constitute one important official&#8217;s acknowledgement of Chinese government fear of U.S. appeals for democratic reform in China. But is also may signify a preference for authoritarian China over the democratic United States. For China such a statement would be comforting on the eve of President Bush&#8217;s visit to Islamabad. For Washington, this statement serves as a reminder that as it seeks to strengthen democratic forces in Pakistan, it must consider that many Pakistani anti-democrats are allied with China.

While Pakistan is receiving generous U.S. aid, it is also receiving generous Chinese economic assistance. China is involved in many key infrastructure projects in Pakistan, to include upgrading the Karakorum Highway and building a new deep-water port in the coastal town of Gwadar. The later will feature railroad and possibly pipeline linkages that will extend into China&#8217;s western provinces, giving China an additional avenue for Persian Gulf petroleum transport that will lessen its current dependence on Indian Ocean sea lanes it cannot yet ensure. However, when the Chinese Navy becomes larger and features aircraft carriers, it should not be surprising that they find welcome facilities in Gwadar.

Full SCO Membership: Dilemma For China

One important request that Musharraf was not afraid to publicly telegraph before going to Beijing was that of having Pakistan elevated to the level of "full member" of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. Hoping to prove that the SCO is a consensus organization, SCO Secretary General Zhang Deguang said, "We will relay Pakistan&#8217;s hope to become a full member of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization to all members of the group."[3] But it is instructive that Pakistan chose to convey its request to China. Musharraf is very likely putting China on the spot to demonstrate that Pakistan retains greater Chinese favor than India. This is timely as Indian sources note that later this summer, Russia and China hope to include Indian military forces in a counter-terrorism exercise under the auspices of the SCO&#8212;that will not include Pakistan. While China has conducted anti-terror exercises with Pakistan, the unlikely inclusion of Pakistani forces in this summer exercise, plus any delay in advancing Pakistan&#8217;s full membership before that of India, will be viewed in Islamabad as a negative tilt. And likewise, China&#8217;s decision to allow Pakistan to be elevated before India will likely increase the perception in Delhi that the SCO is but a budding Anti-NATO alliance and a future threat. This would then defeat both Russia&#8217;s and China&#8217;s desire that the SCO become more attractive power-center to Delhi, at least to the point of moderating its deepening cooperation with Washington.

Nuclear Upgrade?

China may also be considering upgrading Pakistan&#8217;s nuclear capabilities. China is already the widely acknowledged source of Pakistan&#8217;s initial nuclear weapon design, the major partner in the development of Pakistan&#8217;s nuclear weapons complex, the major source of Pakistan&#8217;s short and medium range solid fuel missile technology[4], and the likely partner in the development of Pakistan&#8217;s Land Attack Cruise Missile tested in 2005.[5] Through the network led by Pakistan&#8217;s former chief nuclear scientist A.Q. Khan, Pakistan sold Chinese nuclear weapons plans to Libya.[6] Then last January, press reports noted the International Atomic Energy Agency had disclosed that Iran had obtained data needed to fabricate the enriched uranium "pit" necessary to make a nuclear weapon from "the same network [that] provided Libya with drawings of a crude nuclear bomb."[7] It is thus logical to conclude that the A.Q. Khan network also sold China&#8217;s nuclear weapon plans to Iran..

In January The Financial Times reported that China and Pakistan are negotiating the purchase of 6 to 8 new Chinese nuclear power reactors, in addition to the one Chinese-built nuclear power reactor now at Chasma in the Punjab Province.[8] Following the October earthquake there were reports that nuclear-related facilities had been damaged, reports that were quickly denied by Pakistan.[9] Nevertheless, there have been repeated Indian press reports that China has offered to upgrade Pakistan&#8217;s nuclear weapon and nuclear storage facilities.[10] These reports, which have not been confirmed in the U.S. or Western media, also note that Washington has protested this Chinese intention.

Military Sales

China has proven to be a reliable supplier of conventional military equipment for Pakistan, selling F-7 fighters, a version of the T-96 main battle tank, and subsidizing the future construction of four frigates for the Pakistan Navy. Pakistan&#8217;s Navy is also considering the future purchase of Chinese conventional submarines.[11] In contrast, the U.S. embargoed F-16 fighters purchased by Pakistan in 1990 and has just resumed arms sales. Pakistan recently took delivery of two of the formerly embargoed F-16A fighters and may take delivery of another 10 older F-16s from the U.S. in 2006.[12] Following the October 2005 earthquake Musharraf delayed plans to buy up to 75 new F-16s and may instead pursue a mix of 35 to 50 new and used F-16s.[13] India has protested U.S. plans to sell new F-16s to Pakistan.

*On February 23 President Musharraf took a day to visit Sichuan Province and the Chengdu Aircraft Company, where he was photographed in the cockpit of a new FC-1 fighter, called the JF-17 "Thunder" in Pakistan service.[14] In 1999 Pakistan and China agreed to co-develop and co-produce Chengdu&#8217;s FC-1 lightweight fighter, which had originally started in the late 1980s as a co-development of the J-7 fighter with the former U.S. Grumman Corporation. The FC-1 has been in flight testing since 2003, is now undergoing design refinements and is expected to begin production within a year, and enter Pakistan Air Force service by 2009.[15] Pakistan has a stated requirement for 150 and most will be co-produced in Pakistan. With an expected cost of less than $20 million each, the FC-1 is a modern multi-role fighter that can fire advanced self-guided medium range air-to-air missile and deliver precision guided air-to-ground weapons, which the U.S. F-16 can do too with somewhat better performance, but at about double the price. While chances are good the FC-1 will be purchased by the Chinese military, that has not materialized, but with Pakistan&#8217;s help, Chengdu now has a modern fighter that will soon compete with U.S., Russian and European fighters in the low-price market.

Pakistan is also considering the purchase of the more capable Chengdu J-10. Depending on the availability of the U.S. F-16, Pakistan&#8217;s Air Force Commander Air Marshal Kaleem Sadat has noted that Chengdu&#8217;s more capable J-10 is also an option for Pakistan. In September 2004 he noted that Pakistani pilots were to test the J-10 later that year.[16] The J-10 is just now entering Chinese Air Force regiments and offers performance and weapons capabilities that are more comparable to modern variants of the F-16. Soon upgraded versions will feature a thrust-vectored engine[17] and possibly new electronics[18], enhancing the maneuverability of this already quite agile canard fighter. If as expected, China meets with success in building its indigenous WS-10A turbofan engine, Pakistan may view a thrust-vectored engined J-10 as its match for India&#8217;s thrust-vectored engined Sukhoi Su-30MKI. So even if Pakistan does purchase more F-16s that does not rule out a future J-10 purchase.*

Terrorism

The increasing radicalization of Islam in Pakistan combined with the growing weakness the Pakistani government faces in confronting real terrorist organizations, poses a threat to China&#8217;s relations with Pakistan as it does with the United States. Overshadowing Musharraf&#8217;s visit to China was the February 15 killing of three Chinese engineers by rebels in Balochistan[19], the third such attack against Chinese nationals in Pakistan since May 2004. In that attack, a bomb killed three Chinese engineers working on the large Chinese-Pakistani Gwadar port construction, and then later that October, two Chinese were kidnapped, with one later being rescued while one died during the rescue attempt. In response to China&#8217;s increasing role in supporting the Pakistani government, Baloci rebels have decided to target Chinese nationals in Balochistan. Deeply embarrassing for Pakistan, these deaths, including the latest, featured formal Pakistan military ceremony and transport of the deceased to China, who were then received in a military-like ceremony and extensive Chinese media coverage. While Pakistani authorities responded the day after this latest attack by rounding up 55 suspects[20], it fell to Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao to admonish, "I hope Pakistan will adopt measures to guarantee the personal safety and property of Chinese in Pakistan."[21]


----------



## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well these are the comments posted on this reports on the site:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i guess this sayts it all! nothing to get excited about.
> moreover this was posted way back in February and we havent heard of any thing regards the deal being finalized so i suggest we should sit tight as the will not be comming before 2014-2015! nothing public about FC20 as yet!
> 
> i hope you people get the point!
> anyway tanks for the post (though a bit too old and unreliable  )
> 
> regards!


But with MRCA in IAF FC-20 are going up for sure eventually 80 to 100 FC-20s are in Plans and further if F-16s are uncertain FC-20s will be procured in greater numbers


----------



## SBD-3

China&#8217;s Emerging 5th Generation Air-to-Air Missiles
by Richard Fisher, Jr.
Published on February 2nd, 2008
ARTICLES

Internet source imagery from January 4 has offered the first glimpses of what may be China&#8217;s emerging 5th generation air-to-air missiles (AAM). One missile, called the PL-ASR or PL-10, shows a very close resemblance to the South African Denel A-Darter AAM. A second image, discovered on a China&#8217;s Northwestern University web site in mid-December, shows another missile similar to the radar-guided South African Denel R-Darter, designed in cooperation with Israel. Both of these missiles are likely designed for use with modern Helmet-Mounted Displays (HMD), which enable pilots to &#8220;look to kill&#8221; their targets. But there is more: additional imagery suggests that a previously reported ramjet powered development of the Chinese Luoyang PL-12 active-radar guided AAM, called the PL-13, could give the People&#8217;s Liberation Army (PLA) an AAM that could out-range existing U.S. AAMs.[1] 



Luoyang PL-ASR/PL-10: This image obtained from Chinese web pages on January 4 was the first revelation of the existence of the advanced PL-10 5th generation AAM. The text indicates development began in 2004 and production is expected by 2010. The missile also has a 90 degree off-bore-sight view and a &#8220;Lock On After Launch&#8221; capability, meaning it can better exploit high off bore-sight firing. Source: CJDBY web page.

Data along with one image suggests the PL-10 could enter production in 2010 but it is not known when the other two new AAMs would enter production. When they do enter service, these AAMs could give both old and new PLA Air Force fighters a decisive advantage over Taiwan Air Force fighters armed with shorter range U.S. AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles. The PL-ASR/PL-10 could have up to double the range of the new U.S. AIM-9X, the first U.S. HMD sighted AAM, which is just now entering service with U.S. Air Force and Navy squadrons. The ramjet powered &#8220;PL-13&#8221; may out-range current variants of the AIM-120. 

Absolute determination of AAM capabilities is greatly hampered by the efforts of governments and manufacturers to deny information, such as that regarding missile range and countermeasures, which would allow potential adversaries to gain an advantage.[2] Furthermore, the utility of an AAM is also determined by many attributes of the carrying aircraft: its radar and electronic support systems, the availability of off-board sensor data, and the degree of training and experience of the launching pilot. But there is little margin for error when considering a major factor such as weapons, especially when considering that China&#8217;s increasing numbers of competitive 4th generation combat aircraft may be followed by 5th generation combat aircraft early to mid-next decade. Absent a U.S. response, such as the purchase of more 5th generation fighters, the development of a new generation of AAMs, or even the purchase of more capable European AAMs, the air power balance in Asia could shift dangerously toward China. 

5th Generation Short Range Air to Air Missiles

Since the 1940s the progress of combat aircraft and their weapons have been measured in &#8220;generations.&#8221; The latest 5th Generation combat aircraft, of which the U.S. Lockheed-Martin F-22A Raptor is the only one operational, are defined usually by their ability to combine the attributes of stealth, advanced electronically scanned (AESA) radar, and engines powerful enough to cruise supersonically without recourse to fuel-guzzling afterburners (super-cruise). These capabilities give the F-22A the ability to detect and attack before being detected, and to evade new and deadly Russian surface-to-air missiles. But since their introduction in the 1970s, American, Russian and other manufacturers have been constantly upgrading their 4th generation fighters such as the Boeing F-15 Eagle and the Sukhoi Su-27/30 Flanker with ever more modern electronic systems and weapons.

In the 1980s Russia began the trend toward the 4th generation AAMs with the introduction of the Vympel R-73, the first thrust-vectored AAM with a 45-degree off-bore-sight view (90-degree field of view) infrared seeker, and the ability to be targeted with a helmet-mounted sight (HMS). This gave Soviet-Russian fighters a decisive advantage over U.S. and European fighters: the Soviets could always launch their short-range AAMs first as they did not have to orient or &#8220;dogfight&#8221; their fighter, but merely needed to &#8220;look&#8221; at the target to direct the R-73 AAM. This technology has evolved into a 5th generation defined by the inclusion of more sensitive imaging-infrared seekers that home in on a specific part of the target aircraft; seekers with wider 90-degree off-bore-sight view(180-degree fields of view); seekers that incorporate advanced anti-jamming and anti-decoy technology; and those which use more advanced helmet-mounted displays. Examples of 5th generation infrared guided AAMs include the British ASRAAM, German IRIS-T, Israeli Python-5, Japanese AAM-5, U.S. AIM-9X, the improved Vympel R-73 and the South African A-Darter. Should a longer range 5th generation AAM like the Python-5 miss its target on the first pass, it usually has the range and agility to attack once more.



MBDA&#8217;s Modern AAMs: The ASRAAM short-range and Meteor long-range AAMs seen at the recent Dubai Airshow. Source: RD Fisher

While first generation short range infrared guided AAM relied on the pilot to find and maneuver to attack an often rapidly moving target, 4th and 5th generation short-range AAMs rely on aircraft sensors and advanced helmet mounted displays to target these latest AAMs which usually have much greater range than a pilot&#8217;s sight. In the 1980s, in addition to using the aircraft&#8217;s radar, the Soviets introduced more sophisticated optical infrared search and tracking (IRST) systems, which allowed aircraft to turn off emitting radars which in turn could be targeted by opposing electronic sensors and jamming. The Russian OLS-30 IRST used in late versions of Sukhoi fighters, and Shenyang co-produced Su-27/J-11 fighters, is reportedly able to passively search and track targets out to 50-90km. While Russian IRSTs are reportedly not able to determine range, the Russians apparently network several fighter IRSTs and radar to find the range of targets, even stealthy targets.[3] HMDs are able to collate data from radar, optical sensors, plus aircraft performance data onto the pilot&#8217;s helmet visor, allowing him to target distant threats without having to concentrate on cockpit instruments. Israel&#8217;s DASH HMD became the basis for the U.S. Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) HMD, which support the AIM-9X AAM that in 2003 started entering service on U.S. F-15, F-16 and F/A-18 fighters. 



Active Radar-Guided AAMs

While the U.S. has lagged in the development of 5th generation HMD sighted AAMs, it has helped to lead the field in the development of medium range active-guided AAMs. The Raytheon AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) began in 1975 leading to fielding in the early 1990s, while the Vympel R-77 program began in 1982 and first appeared in the early 1990s. Both missiles sought to perfect the advancement of incorporating an active radar seeker to allow the AAM to guide itself autonomously for part of its flight. Previous &#8220;semi-active&#8221; radar guided AAMs like the AIM-7 Sparrow and the Vympel R-27 required continuous &#8220;painting&#8221; by aircraft radar with constant radio signals to guide the missile until reaching its target. Active radar guided missiles like the AIM-120 and R-77 still require target location data from the launching aircraft, or more recently, from an off-board sensor like an AWACS aircraft, but after the missile&#8217;s active radar acquires the target the launching aircraft has the option to maneuver to safety or commence another attack. 




AIM-120D and R-77: The AIM-120D is the latest model of the AMRAAM due to enter service soon, whereas China may have purchased up to 1,000 of the Vympel R-77 AAM. Source: US Air Force and RD Fisher

The AIM-120, the Russian R-77 and the French MICA dominate the market for active-guided AAMs. In this decade Japan, China and Taiwan have fielded active guided AAMs, with the latter two relying on imported technology. All active-guided AAM makers have sought to improve their products with better seekers, some using satellite navigation guidance, enhanced electronic counter measures, the addition of data links to provide updated target location data, and better engines to enable longer range. The U.S., Russia, Europe, South Africa, and perhaps more recently China, have developed ramjet engine powered AAMs to achieve longer ranges without increasing missile size. Ramjets also allow the missile to sustain its high speed over most of its range, which significantly expands the &#8220;no escape zone&#8221; or area within which a target will likely be killed. The only ramjet powered AAM soon to enter service is the MBDA Meteor, which advertises a 100+km range, and a constant Mach 4+ speed and a &#8220;no escape zone&#8221; three times that of early AIM-120 AAMs.[4] More recently Russia has revived its very long range missile program with the Novator K-100 or K-172, which has been variously reported to have a 200km to 400km range. The last U.S. very long range Hughes AIM-54C Phoenix, capable of reaching 150km, was retired from U.S. Navy service in 2004. While the U.S. had two-stage and ramjet missile engine AAM test programs in the 1980s and 1990s,[5] it has chosen not to replace the long range AIM-54C. 



China&#8217;s Record of Foreign AAM Technology Reliance

Almost from the beginning the PLA has relied on foreign technology, whether from the United States, Russia, Israel and now South Africa, to develop ever more modern air-to-air missiles. In September 1958 a U.S. AIM-9B Sidewinder short range air-to-air missile (AAM) was captured by China after it was fired by a Taiwanese F-86 Sabre fighter at a Chinese MiG-17, becoming lodged in the airframe without exploding. At the time the AIM-9B was the most modern air-to-air missile anywhere and it was soon copied by the Soviet Union and China. For the Soviets it became the K-13 (NATO: AA-2 Atol) and for China the PL-2 (PL meaning Thunderbolt). During the Vietnam War China was able to obtain unexploded copies of more advanced AIM-9 missiles, which influenced the PL-5, as well as early version of the Raytheon AIM-7 Sparrow, which influence the radar-guided PL-11. During the 1980s China obtained the French Matra 550, which was copied as the PL-7 and the Israeli Python-3, which was copied as the PL-8. 

From the 1990s to the present period the PLA has purchased thousands of modern Russian AAMs, including the Vympel R-73 short-range AAM, and multiple variants of the semi-active radar and infrared guided Vympel R-27 medium range AAM. In addition the PLA has purchased about 1,000 of the more modern active radar guided Vympel R-77 medium range AAM. These missiles almost exclusively arm Sukhoi/KnAAPO made Su-27SK/Su-30MKK/MKK2 fighters or the Shenyang Aircraft Co. co-produced version of the Su-27SK called the J-11, or J-11A. It has been reported that some number of early purchase Su-27SKs and early J-11s were upgraded in order to be able to fire the R-77, whereas the Su-30s had this capability from delivery. 

Starting in the 1990s, as it did with other weapons purchases, the PLA decided to purchase the underlying technology of weapons systems or their components, so as to make weapon systems with increasing indigenous Chinese content. By the mid 1990s China&#8217;s main missile maker Luoyang had developed the PL-9, which took the fuselage of the Python-3, attached different guidance fins, and incorporated a copy of the Ukrainian Arsenel helmet sight, called the TK-14 in Chinese service, to make a new AAM.[6] The latest PL-9C features an increase in range to 22km, up from 15km for the PL-9, PL-8 and Python-3 AAMs. One mystery has been why the PL-9 has not seen widespread usage in the PLA air forces. From the 1996 Zhuhai show and at subsequent shows, Luoyang officials have noted to the author that the PLA was not interested in buying the PL-9, even though it has occasionally been seen on some fighters like the late model Chengdu J-7G. 




PL-9C and HMS: It is not clear that the PL-9C AAM with the TK-14 helmet sight is in widespread PLA service, an indication that the PLA was instead waiting for a more advanced short-range AAM. Source: RD Fisher

Perhaps a key reason for not purchasing the PL-9 has been the expectation that the PLA would be building an even better AAM. At the 2002 Zhuhai Airshow Luoyang officials told this analyst and other reporters that the company was working on an advanced AAM. The few details disclosed, such as advanced guidance, the use of thrust vectoring and helmet displays created a basis for speculation that Luoyang was interested in an AAM like the British ASRAAM. Despite the heavy reliance on purchased Russian short range AAMs like the R-73, the inspiration for Luoyang&#8217;s 5th generation AAM was to come from elsewhere.

Possible &#8220;South African&#8221; AAMs

At the 2002 Zhuhai Airshow South African firms set up a small booth and spoke of their desire to do business with the PLA but did not go into specifics. At subsequent shows the South African presence grew larger and it is now clear that there have been several cooperative programs, including unmanned aircraft, air defense systems and air to air missiles. While South African firms have said little about the latter, in 2004 Yihong Chang reported on PLA interest in purchasing the 5th generation Denel A-Darter AAM.[7] The data revealed on January 4 indicated that development of the PL-10 started in 2004, which might track very well with the reported deepening of South African-PLA cooperation. The few clear images of the PL-ASR/PL-10 show a near 95 percent similarity with the Denel A-Darter AAM. The main differences are in the rear fin shape and configuration, but it is a relatively minor difference. So it is possible to speculate that the PL-10 may very well have a performance similar to or better than the A-Darter, which would include use of advanced imaging infrared guidance and a maximum range of 20km or better. The January 4 revelation indicates the seeker has a 90-degree off-bore-sight capability (180 degree field of view). It also has a lock-on-after-launch capability, meaning it can be launched from a high off-bore-sight position and acquires the target, usually accomplished with the aid of a helmet sight or IRST. 




PL-10 and A-Darter: This comparison shows the basic similarity between the Denel A-Darter (top) and the Luoyang PL-10. Source: CJDBY and Internet

This missile could arm most PLA fighters equipped with an IRST, even a short range radar but also with computers capable of processing for the helmet mounted display. This would likely initially include J-10 and J-11B fighters, but then older J-11As, and then late model J-8II and J-7 fighters. 

New Type AAM

The revelation of PL-10 imagery with the clear implication of South African technical participation also provides possible insights into another AAM found on a Chinese university website in mid-December 2007. This AAM has not yet been identified by any official or unofficial PLA source, but this single picture shows some similarity to the Denel radar-guided R-Darter, which is virtually the same missile as the Israeli Aircraft Industries Derby. The product of Israeli and South African cooperation during the 1980s and 1990s, the R-Darter has a light weight of 120kg and reported range of 63km.[8] It appears that the R-Darter/Derby program intended to produce a very maneuverable but light-weight radar-guided AAM that could be back-fitted to advanced 3rd and 4th generation fighters. R-Darter entered service with the South African Air Force but Derby has not yet entered service with the Israeli Air Force, though it is reportedly being used by the Singapore Air Force.




New Radar Guided AAM: Two new-type AAMs straddle a single PL-12 on a three-missile pylon on a JH-7A fighter bomber (top). This vague image was obtained from a Chinese university web site, and appears to show some similarity to the somewhat larger South African/Israeli R-Darter (bottom) radar-guided AAM. Source: Internet

The key similarity between the new PLA AAM and the R-Darter appears to be their shape and the possible inclusion of a small roll stabilization fins behind the front fins. However, it also appears that this new missile is appreciably smaller than the R-Darter, perhaps weighing only about 100 to 110kgs.[9] This would mean a shorter range, perhaps 20 to 30km. It is not known whether this new AAM has a semi-active, active, or even a passive seeker. One possibility may be a version of the new small 150mm seeker being marketed by Russia&#8217;s AGAT.[10] It is clear that the PLA intends to exploit this missile&#8217;s light weight, as its first public illustration shows two of the new missiles paired with a PL-12 on a single three-missile launch pylon. This pylon configuration allows newer fighters such as the FC-1, J-10, J-11B and JH-7A to increase their beyond-visual-range AAM carriage capability. This missile could also be intended to quickly upgrade the latest models of 3rd generation fighters like the Shenyang J-8IIF/H and the Chengdu J-7E/G with a lightweight radar guided AAM to complement the PL-10 infrared/imaging AAM. 

If these two new PLA AAMs were aided substantially by South Africa, then it would stand to reason that South Africa may have also provided key enabling technologies such as Helmet Mounted Display systems and data links. Denel&#8217;s Archer HMD was developed to support the A-Darter and R-Darter and would likely have been sold to China along with the AAM technology. China&#8217;s Luoyang group has also long commented, albeit cryptically, on its interest in developing HMD technology, with images of experimental HMDs appearing from time to time. A new Luoyang HMD may benefit from indigenous and foreign technology. A helmet mounted sight displayed by the Cigong Group at the 2004 Zhuhai show uses prominent light-emitting diodes to allow cockpit computers to track the position of the pilot&#8217;s head, in order to target weapons, the same system used by the Denel Archer HMD. 




Advanced Helmet Systems: The South African &#8220;Archer&#8221; helmet mounted display (top) uses light emitting diodes to track pilot head position in order to target weapons. The Cigong Group helmet sight seen a the 2004 Zhuhai show used a similar head tracking system. Any potential South African help with new PLA AAMs likely included the sale of advanced helmet display technology. Source: Denel and RD Fisher

PL-12 

Indicating a major advance in its AAM technology, in 2001 Chinese sources began revealing the first data on the Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute (LETRI) SD-10, later PL-12 active radar guided AAM. It is likely that at about the same time that the PLA was negotiating to purchase the R-77, it was also pressing Russia&#8217;s missile concerns for technology to support an indigenous Chinese program. Russia&#8217;s missile radar maker AGAT reportedly sold China drawings of the 9B-1103M radar for the active-guided version of the R-27 AAM. But China presumably also gained insights from the AGAT 9B-1348 radar on the R-77.[11] The PL-12 also reportedly has a &#8220;passive&#8221; seeking mode that would allow it to home in on an emitting target, such as a jamming or AWACs radar aircraft.[12] However, the SD-10 uses a Chinese-made missile motor, which when combined with a &#8220;lofted&#8221; flight profile, can achieve a maximum range of 70km, about 10km less than the R-77. Nevertheless, in the PL-12 the PLA has a modern self-guided AAM that is in the same class as the U.S. AIM-120 and the Russian R-77. In 2002 China revealed basic data about the SD-10 and began to display models of the missile at air-shows, such as Zhuhai in November 2002. By 2005 to 2006 the PL-12 began to appear in photos of PLA fighters, especially the Chengdu J-10 and some versions of the Shenyang J-8II. It has also been tested on the Shenyang J-11B, now in advanced development, and has been seen in at least on photo on a wing pylon of a Xian JH-7A fighter attack fighter. 




PL-12 In Service: The 70km range PL-12 active-guided radar is known equip some Shenyang J-8II fighters (top), all Chengdu J-10 fighters (bottom) and will in the future equip the Shenyang J-11B. Source: Chinese Internet

&#8220;PL-13&#8221;

Another surprise in the imagery made available on Chinese web pages on January 4 was a curious computer-generated depiction of a missile called the &#8220;PL-13.&#8221; However, it must be stressed that this is the first image of this missile and a definitive determination of its existence and performance must await further disclosures. Arguing in favor of this program&#8217;s existence is the fact that its image appears with clear images of the PL-12 and the new PL-10, which would tend to lend credibility to the new missile depiction. In addition, Luoyang was reported to have been interested in ramjet propulsion to develop the PL-12.[13] This PL-13 image also points to the possibility that Vympel has sold China the technology needed to make such an AAM. The PL-13 image appears to show a two-intake ramjet motor, a configuration that Vympel had come to prefer as it was developing its R-77M-PD, following early 1990s collaboration with France&#8217;s former MATRA Corporation.[14] The ramjet intake shape on the PL-13 appears to conform to one known Vympel configuration. Furthermore, the four cruciform fins at the front end of the PL-13 are also characteristic of other Vympel missiles like the R-27, and Vympel was also reportedly discarding the &#8220;grid&#8221; shape fins for conventional fins,[15] which also coincides with the PL-13 image. Inasmuch as Russia apparently decided not to purchase the R-77M-PD, it is possible that Vympel was allowed to sell this missile technology to China.[16] But it is also possible that South Africa was a source for some AAM ramjet engine technology, inasmuch as South Africa also had an unrealized program called the Long Range Air-to-Air Missile (LRAAM). 



First &#8220;PL-13&#8221; Image: This computer generated image appeared on the CJDBY website on January 4, 2008. While little is known about this missile the image&#8217;s credibility is supported by the inclusion of images of the PL-12 and the recently revealed PL-10. Source: CJDBY web site

If a real program, then the PL-13 would give the PLA a long-range AAM with considerable new capabilities. The R-77M-PD was reported to have an estimated range of 160km and the PL-13 should be expected to do as well or better. Furthermore, as it a ramjet powered missile, it is expected to sustain its high speed, likely about Mach 4 and greater, throughout its engagement, meaning that it has a substantial &#8220;no escape&#8221; zone, perhaps similar to that of the MBDA Meteor. Should the PL-13 see a near-term introduction, the it will likely be used in conjunction with the PLA&#8217;s AWACS aircraft that can find distant targets and then pass targeting data to attacking aircraft, likely J-11B and J-10 fighter. But the potential range of the PL-13 offers an indication that the PLA is also likely developing long-range radar for its 4th and 5th generation fighters, or may be interested in upgrading existing fighters with new longer range Russian radar. Inasmuch as Vympel has been marketing passive guided versions of the R-27 and R-77, it is reasonable to speculate that a version of the PL-13 may feature a passive guidance system, to better enable long-range attacks against critical support aircraft like AWACS, electronic warfare and tanker aircraft. The PL-13 could also form the basis for a future light-weight anti-radar or supersonic anti-ship missile.




PL-13 and R-77M-PD Compared: The ramjet intakes of the PL-13 (top) and the R-77M-PD (bottom) show a clear similarity, whereas the PL-13 adopts the two-intake configuration Vympel reportedly settled upon following early 1990s collaboration with France&#8217;s MATRA. Source: CJDBY and Internet

There is also the possibility that the PLA could purchase new Russian very long-range AAMs or develop similar AAMs themselves. Inasmuch as the PLA is reportedly interested in purchasing some number of the new Russian Sukhoi Su-35 fighter, it may also purchase the unique weapons offered with this fighter, like the 300-400km range Novator K-100/172. India may be interested in an advanced version of this missile capable of anti-missile intercepts.[17] Asian military sources also note that China is developing a 400km range surface-to-air missile.[18] If this new PLA SAM is based on Russian S-400 components, for which China is reportedly an investor, then this new SAM may be small enough to be developed into a very long-range AAM, perhaps even with future anti-missile intercept capabilities. 



Novator K-100/172: In development since the late Cold War, the latest version of the very long range Novator K-100 design was revealed at the 2007 Moscow Airshow. Source: Internet

Growing PLA Airpower, Growing Intimidation

After nearly 15 years of effort, by 2005 the PLA&#8217;s many investments in modern air combat capabilities began paying off. The Chengdu J-10 4th generation fighter and the indigenous Xian JH-7A fighter-bomber were both entering production. About a hundred or so of each have now been produced, each comprising about three to four operational units. In recent months the JH-7 has been seen with new electronic warfare pods perhaps conferring a capability similar to the U.S. Northrop Grumman EA-6B. By 2005 PLA Air Force and Naval Air Force had completed acceptance of 180+ Russian made Sukhoi Su-27 fighters and Su-30 attack fighters. The Shenyang Aircraft Corporation had co-produced about 100 Su-27s as the J-11, and was making breakthroughs in its effort to absorb and &#8220;indigenize&#8221; the Su-27 as the J-11B fighter. Furthermore, by 2005 the PLA had two types of phased array radar AWACS and a possible phased array radar ground mapping aircraft in advanced development, The venerable Xian H-6 (Tu-16) bomber was also being upgraded into a more powerful land attack cruise missile and PGM carrier. While open data is very scant, U.S. and Chinese sources indicate that both Chengdu and Shenyang have 5th generation combat aircraft programs that could fly by the middle of the next decade, and both companies are likely developing a range of unmanned combat aircraft. The first PLA Naval Air Force carrier wing may include modified J-11B or J-10 fighters, to be followed by a Chinese or Russian 5th generation naval fighter.

These hardware improvements have been accompanied by the development of new offensive and joint-force aerial doctrines, and increases in training time and training sophistication. China&#8217;s leadership has also shown its willingness to use its Air Forces to intimidate Japan and Taiwan. Japan had to scramble fighters to intercept intruding PLA aircraft 13 times in 2005 and 107 times in the first three months of 2006.[19] For two days in September 2007 the PLA sent 40 bomber sorties into the disputed Shirakaba/Chunxiao East China Sea gas field region, prompting 12 Japanese fighter intercept sorties.[20] In November 2007 PLA Air Force exercises with KJ-2000 AWACS apparently followed coordinated East Sea Fleet and South Sea Fleet naval exercises designed to intimidate Taiwan. Starting abruptly in 1999 the PLA Air Force has increased its presence in the Taiwan Strait, often flying up to or over the &#8220;mid line,&#8221; an unofficial boundary both sides have honored, offering some degree of &#8220;confidence,&#8221; but which Chinese commentators now say is not recognized by China.[21] From 1998 to 1999 PLA air sorties in or near the Strait jumped from 400 to 1,100, and then jumped from 940 to 1,700 from 2005 to 2006.[22]

But in late 2007, in a move consistent with Beijing&#8217;s efforts to intensify its &#8220;Legal Warfare&#8221; against Taiwan, China began indicating its intention to create a new air transport corridor which at some points would be barely 30km from the Taiwan Strait mid line, and also indicated it was going to create a Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) over the Taiwan Strait.[23] By one definition, an ADIZ is &#8220;The area of airspace over land or water, extending upward from the surface, within which the ready identification, the location, and the control of aircraft are required in the interest of national security.&#8221; While China may want the new air corridor to help ease airport congestion, China currently only allocates 30 percent of its airspace for civil traffic,[24] raising questions about its real intent on the Taiwan Strait. Both the new air corridor and a new ADIZ over the Taiwan Strait would offer multiple opportunities for miscalculation or for the creation of &#8220;aerial incidents&#8221; that could justify military escalation. For example, what if Taiwanese fighters or SAM bases could not identify a Chinese airliner that has strayed well over the &#8220;mid line&#8221; prompting a tragedy similar to the 1983 Soviet shoot-down of the Korean Airlines Flight 007? Might China then attack Taiwan or just force concessions? Or might a Taiwan Air Force scramble to indentify such an intruder give the PLA cause to launch S-300 SAMs or fighters at the Taiwanese? 

As there appears to be a relationship between China&#8217;s growing airpower in its willingness to use its new capabilities to intimidate its neighbors, U.S. policy makers to pay close attention to how the PLA is quickly shifting the airpower balance on the Taiwan Strait. For example, Taiwan does not have a 5th generation helmet display guided AAM that can counter the PL-10. Should the PLA decide to upgrade its late model third generation J-7E/G and J-8F/H and newer 4th generation J-10 fighters with the PL-10 and its new light-weight radar guided AAM, it might quickly gain over 500 fighters that could dominate Taiwan&#8217;s 126 F-16s, 57 Mirage-2000s, 90 or so F-5 and 126 IDF combat aircraft in a short-range battle. The PLA&#8217;s Sukhoi fighter fleet has had this superiority since the mid-1990s due to its R-27 helmet sighted AAMs. All Taiwan fighters save the F-5s have the ability to fire self-guided medium range AIM-120, MICA EM or Sky Sword 2 AAMs, but these could in the future be handily outranged by a ramjet-powered PL-13. The PL-13 would also pose a new threat to Taiwan&#8217;s six E-2 Hawkeye AWACS, essential for Taiwan to appropriately employ its smaller number of fighters against a larger force. The introduction of these new PLA AAMs place greater pressure on Taiwan to replace its F-5s with 66 F-16 Block 50 fighters, as it has been trying to do for some time, and also to upgrade other elements of its air force. Taiwan now has an urgent requirement for the helmet display sighted AIM-9X AAM for all of its fighters, as it also could handily justify an early purchase of Lockheed Martin F-35 fighters which would give it a modest technical advantage in terms of stealth. 

Narrowing Choices for Washington

China&#8217;s growing airpower also creates greater pressure for the United States to react, both in terms of improving its own capabilities and those of its allies and friends. The advent of the PL-10 and possibility the PL-13 raises the possibility of a new &#8220;AAM Gap,&#8221; a condition that U.S. Air Forces endured for the 1990s. Soon after the Cold War it was determined that former East German MiG-29 fighters had a decisive &#8220;first-shot&#8221; close-in battle advantage over U.S. fighters due to the helmet-sighted Vympel R-73 AAM. The PLA purchased this AAM with its Su-27SK and Su-30MKK fighters in the 1990s, and had the same advantage over U.S. fighters until the 2003 introduction of the AIM-9X. But in the PL-ASR/PL-10 the PLA may have a close-in combat AAM that could potentially have twice the range of the AIM-9X.[25] This presents U.S. defense planners with little alternative but to seek an upgraded longer-range AIM-9. In 1998 Australia chose the 20km range HMD sighted British ASRAAM over the AIM-9X to arm its F/A-18A fighters.

Furthermore, save for the F-35 which will not enter U.S. units until 2012, no U.S. fighter has an integral Infrared Search and Tracking (IRST) system, as is carried by PLA Su-27, Su-30 and J-11 fighters, and is employed by the European Eurofighter and the French Rafale. This may enable the PLA to get the first shot with its new PL-10 AAMs when targeted passively by their IRST. The U.S. Navy is proposing adding an IRST to the F/A-18E/F, but its placement on a centerline fuel tank offers a restricted field of view.[26] 

At the same time the U.S. may be facing stronger competition regarding longer-range AAMs. While the maximum range of the AIM-120D remains a classified number, limitations of size dictate that it may very well be outranged by a ramjet powered missile that does not need to include an oxidizer in its fuel. For the 1990s the U.S. justified its lag in developing a 5th generation short-range AAM due to the superiority of the Raytheon AIM-120 self-guided AAM family. This, combined with the use of E-3 and E-2 AWACS, was believed to enable existing F-15 air superiority fighters to sustain a commanding edge in battle. This proved valid against lesser air forces like those of Iraq and Bosnia. And the U.S. expects that the Lockheed Martin F-22A&#8217;s impressive advantages in stealth, long range AESA radar and passive sensors, and super-cruising speeds to sustain the ability of the U.S. to find and attack it opponents first, thus securing air dominance. 

But as the emergence of PLA 5th generation AAMs indicates, this picture could change quickly absent U.S. action. China is developing long-range AAMs like the PL-13 or could purchase the longer range Russian Novator K-100 and present an unacceptable threat to critical U.S. AWACS aircraft. Denied superior &#8220;situational awareness&#8221; from AWACS, U.S. F-15s and F-16s would be forced to rely on their own radar, electronics and weapons. The PLA&#8217;s development of new AAMs and its purchase of Russian AAMs would then raise the possibility of uncomfortably reducing the U.S. margin of superiority, and thus reducing deterrence. The U.S. is now introducing the AIM-120D, which may have range in excess of 100km and has the advantage of a two-way data-link, so the missile&#8217;s radar can increase the situational awareness of the combat network. The U.S. is also developing a next generation AAM designed to combine short-range, medium range air combat superiority and ground attack capabilities, called the Joint Dual Role Air Dominance Missile (JDRADM). But despite experimental programs in the 1980s and 1990s the U.S. does not appear interested in a very long range AAM. It may now be necessary for the U.S. to revisit programs that sought to develop two-stage and ramjet powered very long-range AAMs,[27] or consider purchasing the ramjet powered MBDA Meteor. 



Ramjet ARM: The U.S. Air Force recently released this image of a new ramjet-powered missile being tested from a QF-4 drone, apparently a new version of the AGM-88 anti-radar missile. This power plant could also form the basis for a new very long range AAM. Source: U.S. Air Force

The U.S. introduction of the F-22A offers substantial compensation, as its stealth and super-cruise offer great tactical advantages over most 4th generation fighters. But the U.S. decision to limit the number of F-22As to 183 means that only 58 are going to be based in Alaska and Hawaii.[28] This advantage is also in danger of being neutralized by the potential emergence of Chinese 5th generation fighters in the next decade, or a possible Chinese decision to purchase Russia&#8217;s 5th generation fighter. Meanwhile, the U.S. faces even greater pressures from the potential loss of over one-third of its 440 F-15 fighter fleet due to recently discovered structural flaws.[29] Even though there have been longstanding concerns about the aging F-15,[30] the U.S. Air Force has plans to upgrade about 177 with new AESA radar, a plan that may be reconsidered.[31] It may now be more important that the U.S. build up to the U.S. Air Force&#8217;s requirement for 381 F-22As, or even better, consider an upgraded version that could carry more and better long, medium and short-range AAM, and include an IRST device. 

The brutal surprise of Russian MiG-15s early in the Korean War helped push the U.S. to remain a leader in air superiority, an expensive investment sustained for three generations. Preserving air superiority has also been a critical factor in America&#8217;s ability to deter large-scale conflict, especially in Asia. The U.S. has also sustained a policy of providing its allies and key friends with ever more modern air defense systems so that they in turn contribute to the deterrence of conflict. Washington has especially relied on maintaining Taiwan&#8217;s technical superiority in the air to undergird its ability to deter Chinese aggression. But China&#8217;s sustained across-the-board investment in modern air combat capabilities is but one of many emerging areas of U.S.-Chinese military competition. The U.S. has little choice but to exceed China&#8217;s capacity to produce superior combat aircraft, the weapons to arm them, and the support aircraft to ensure they sustain the ability to quickly establish command of the air in order to dominate battlefields below. 



Two of Japan&#8217;s Choices: Japan wants the F-22A and perhaps Australia may elect to seek it as well. But of the two only Japan has a fall-back indigenous 5th generation fighter program. Source: RD Fisher

Furthermore, it is necessary for Washington to consider additional measures to allow U.S. allies and friends to sustain local air superiority. The U.S. will not sell the F-22A to Australia and Japan, despite their strong interest.[32] Australia has decided to purchase up to 100 F-35s, which are optimized for attack missions, and the new Labour Party-led government is now re-evaluating the Liberal government&#8217;s 2007 decision to buy F/A-18E/F fighters, in part because they do not offer commanding superiority over Russian Sukhois being sold to China, Indonesia and Malaysia. Given China&#8217;s all-around progress in air power building, it may be necessary to review F-22 export restrictions, and perhaps consider a version that can be more safely exported. Japan has an urgent requirement to replace its 1960s vintage F-4EJ fighters but is also quietly investing in its own 5th generation fighter that could fly by the end of the next decade if the U.S. does not sell the F-22A.[33] In addition, the U.S. must become far more responsive to Taiwan&#8217;s needs, to include rapid approval of Taipei&#8217;s request for 66 new F-16 Block 50 fighters, which can use the AIM-9X AAM. Assisting Taiwan&#8217;s ability to deter China in the air can also serve to deter China&#8217;s ongoing buildup of missiles, naval blockade forces and invasion forces aimed at Taiwan.

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## SBD-3

China&#8217;s J-10 Jet Fighter: How Much Do We Know?

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by Richard Fisher, Jr.
Published on January 16th, 2007
ARTICLES

Since late December 2006 China has been rolling out its Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) Jian-10 (Fighter-10, or J-10) multi-role fighter, with some publicity. We have seen unprecedented video[1] and print press coverage[2] of the fighter and interviews with prominent members of the CAC design team.[3] The purposes seem to be, first, to demonstrate to Chinese and foreigners alike that China can build her own "indigenous" aircraft itself, without relying on foreign help, and second, that as a responsible "rising power," China has nothing to hide from the world (the theme of the National Defense White Paper of December 29, 2006).

But the whole exercise has also been conspicuous for what it lacks. First, no official data have been provided regarding the actual capabilities and performance of the J-10. And second, we have heard little or nothing from the many Israeli and Russian engineers who helped make this aircraft possible.





After 20 Years, A J-10 Party: Some of the current issues of Chinese military magazines that feature cover stories on the J-10; for most Chinese military journalists, a very long wait to cover a well known story. Credit: Chinese Internet

From the early 1990s to the present period the J-10 has been viewed by government and non-government analysts as a key indicator of Chinese military potential, and as such, has been an object of intense scrutiny and speculation. In 1997 the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence produced speculative artist imagery of the J-10 (an honor previously reserved for mysterious new Soviet combat aircraft) estimating that an eventual twin-engine version would fly off a future Chinese aircraft carrier. But at about the same time, many U.S. government and non-government analysts regarded the J-10 (and the idea of Chinese aircraft carriers) as far-fetched.



American Estimates: In 1997 the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence produced speculative imagery of a twin-engine J-10 flying form a future Chinese aircraft carrier, which at that time, was an estimate viewed by some U.S. analysts as &#8220;humorous.&#8221; Credit: Office of Naval Intelligence

The J-10 program started in the 1960s with the J-9, a canard (horizontal stabilizer in front of the wing) fighter (like the J-10) which resembled the Swedish JA-37 Viggen. The J-9 was conceived of then, in the years of the Sino-Soviet confrontation, as short take-off and fast climbing interceptor to ward of invading Soviet aircraft. Work started at the Shenyang Aircraft Company, but was switched to CAC. As time passed, however, with no plane, the concept of the J-10 evolved into that of a full multi-role fighter. The Chinese would like the world to believe that the J-10 is "designed and made entirely in China."[4] However, over the course of its development the J-10 required substantial technical and consulting inputs from Israel and then Russia. The J-10&#8217;s basic configuration has clear influences from the Israeli Aircraft Industries Lavi,-- an aircraft program, never completed, that was largely paid for by the United States.[5] These include its underslug air intake and slightly anhedral delta wings. What appears to be a likely early concept for the J-10 even copies the Lavi&#8217;s vertical stabilizer.




Possible Early Configuration: In the mid-1990s this model of an early configuration of the J-10 was given legitimacy by the presence of former Politburo member Li Peng in the picture. The Israeli Lavi-style vertical stabilizer is apparent. Credit: Chinese Internet

The J-10 is furthermore completely "fly by wire," or computer driven, an achievement probably to be credited to Israeli consultants, who in turn may in turn have relied on their exposure to U.S. technology associated with the pioneering fly-by-wire Lockheed-Martin F-16. Chengdu did develop its own system, however, which it tested on a modified JJ-6 training aircraft.

Finally, the J-10 was developed in considerable secrecy. Planned debuts in previous years were evidently canceled. The aircraft has been unveiled just now not as a prototype but as an aircraft already in production and serving with the PLA air force. What do we know about it?



Debut Canceled: A week before the November 2006 Zhuhai Airshow, CAC flew a special J-10 painted in AVIC-1 markings before assembled journalists, only to have its triumphal Zhuhai debut cancelled at the last minute. Despite a press embargo, some images from that demonstration flight were leaked to the Internet. Source: Chinese Internet

We Know #1: The CAC J-10 is now in production and is serving in PLA Air Force units.

Internet source imagery confirms that the J-10 is flying in at least two active PLAAF regiments, the first becoming operational in 2005, plus a testing regiment. Other reporting indicates that another two more regiments may be transitioning to the J-10. At least one regiment contains two-seat J-10S versions, which reportedly first flew in December 2003. The J-10S is designed for training, but could in the future be upgraded to dedicated attack variant. It should be expected that the PLA Navy will purchase some to replace obsolete J-7 fighters. And furthermore, Pakistan may be first in line to purchase the J-10, perhaps toward the end of this decade, or soon into the next.



One of the First J-10 Units: So far, it appears that the J-10 only serves in two PLAAF regiments, with reports of two others working up. Source: Chinese Internet

We Know #2: China now has a 4th generation multi-role fighter having performance that will soon approach that of the Lockheed-Martin F-16 Block 40.

The J-10 exhibits the major characteristics of 4th generation fighters such as the F-16 and F/A-18, such as computer driven or "fly-by-wire" control systems that ensure far greater flying precision; use of high-thrust turbofan engines to ensure a near 1 to 1 thrust-to-weight ratio for high performance 8-9G combat maneuvering; and the ability to employ advanced radar and weapons.

With its canard configuration and slightly larger wing, the J-10 can probably be credited with slightly better maneuverability than the F-16.

The fighter employs a Chinese developed radar, which, although it may rely on technology obtained from Russian or other sources, is nevertheless a Chinese product it can now sell. This radar, the maker, name or performance of which has not been officially disclosed, is usually assumed to employ a mechanically slewed planar array comparable to early 1990s era Western fighter radar, but with the performance enhancements gained from integrating more modern computer components.

Multiple images also confirm the J-10 uses modern Chinese-made cockpit systems to include hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) controls that enable use of the range of combat systems while hands remain on these critical aircraft controls, and glass multi-function displays which allow a pilot to view flight system data or target imagery by pressing a button.

We Know #3: The J-10 is armed with modern weapons systems and can be refueled in flight.

The J-10 employs now (or will soon be able to employ) modern anti-air and ground attack weapons. In early 2005 Chinese sources disclosed to the author that CAC had completed integration of the PL-12/SD-10 self-guiding medium range air-to-air missile,[6] two to four of which can be carried by the J-10. While the PL-12 relies on a Russian/Ukrainian developed missile radar, its Chinese designed missile engine is credited with giving it a slightly greater range than the comparable Russian Vympel R-77, which makes it very competitive with relatively recent versions of the U.S. Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM.

As for ground attack, an early January AVIC-1 press conference displayed a J-10 model equipped with two low-light/laser targeting pods attached to the engine intake. While this modification has yet to be seen on J-10s "in the field," this modification is how the F-16 employs the twin-pod LANTRIN targeting and low-light navigation system, or the new singke-pod systems. The F-16 did not integrate LANTRIN until its Block 40 version, which began delivery in 1989, a decade after the initial F-16As entered service. This Chinese targeting pod was developed, according to Russian sources, with the help of the Russian UOMZ optical targeting system company, but again, it will be marketed as a Chinese system. Imaging made available over the last 18 months and more recent videos show the J-10 can carry bombs on wing and fuselage, for a total of 11 weapon attachments. The use of targeting pods indicates the J-10&#8217;s potential to employ the laser and navigation satellite guided bombs revealed by the Louyang Company and CASIC consortium during the 2006 Zhuhai show.



Press Con Model: At a January 5 press conference AVIC-1 revealed a J-10 model equipped with two targeting pods of a type that received Russian technical assistance. In service it is likely the J-10 will use only one such pod, to target new Chinese-made laser and satellite-guided munitions. Credit: CCTV

A video released late December also included the first ever images of a J-10 equipped with a fixed probe for aerial refueling, taking fuel from a Chinese-built Xian H-6U tanking aircraft. Images of initial J-10 units do not indicate this is a current standard feature for the J-10, but it could for future versions. Such tanking ability would significantly increase the J-10&#8217;s operational flexibility to sustain longer combat air patrols or to undertake longer range attack missions.




This is new: One of the actual real revelations of late December 2006 was that at least one J-10 has been successfully modified for aerial refueling. Credit: AVIC-1; CCTV

We Know #4: The Chinese are about to master complex propulsion technology, and with the imminent production of the Shenyang WS-10A "Taihang" turbofan engine, the J-10 can soon be marketed as a fully indigenous Chinese 4th generation fighter.

Turbofan and jet engine technology has been one area in which the Chinese have encountered great difficulty in developing indigenous systems. The metallurgy of long-lasting fan blades is extremely complicated, as is the engineering, which is often viewed as much art as science.

Today the J-10 is powered by a Russian AL-31FN engine. China has purchased 150 AL-31FNs and in the recent past Russian sources have spoken of their expectation that China would purchase another 200 or so. The final number purchased will depend on how quickly China&#8217;s WS-10A Taihang turbofan engine can complete final testing and reach sufficient production to contribute to the J-10 program.

China&#8217;s quest for a modern high performance turbofan combat aircraft engine has lasted as long as the J-10&#8217;s story. While WS-10A is given a lower profile in reporting about the PLA, is perhaps a more important accomplishment than the J-10, inasmuch as this new engine enables multiple combat aircraft, enables the development of modern turbofans for airliner and cargo transports and its establishes a critical knowledge base for developing 5th generation fighters engines.



Taihang: The first &#8220;official&#8221; picture of China&#8217;s WS-10A turbofan appeared on a wall at the 2006 Zhuhai Airshow. While the chief designer has been feted in the Chinese press, as of yet there are no officially released performance statistics on this engine. Source: Chinese Internet

Official performance statistics for the Taihang have yet to be revealed. Numerous Chinese sources credit this engine with a 13,200kg maximum thrust, which could compare very favorably to the 12,500kg rating for the AL-31FN now used by the J-10.

China is also developing thrust vectoring for this engine, which serves to greatly enhance maneuverability and is also useful under certain conditions, for lowering landing speeds.

However, it appears that Shenyang and its J-11B, a greatly indigenized version of the Sukhoi Su-27 being co-produced by Shenyang, will have first claim on Taihang engine production. This J-11 may prove to be a more important combat aircraft than the J-10 in terms of performance. But perhaps because it is largely based on a foreign Russian design, it will not be given the same "debut" party as the J-10.

The J-10&#8217;s future, especially its export prospects, are tied to the Taihang engine. For example, Chengdu&#8217;s smaller FC-1 Fierce Dragon fighter, which is part of a major co-development and co-production agreement with Pakistan, has been bedeviled by Indian pressure on Russia not to sell its rival the Russian-made Klimov RD-93 engines which now power the FC-1. Pakistan is also planning to purchase an initial batch of 36 J-10s, and the Taihang would allow CAC to avoid foreign engine entanglements.

We Don&#8217;t Know:

Even by her own standards, China has been rather secretive with respect to the development of the J-10. Evidently the desire was to garner the full publicity value of the unexpected revelation of existing production and in place operational capabilities about which foreigners had hitherto only speculated. Some attempt was probably made as well to divert foreign attention away to major technology indigenization. Now after the debut, there is still much we do not know.

The Chengdu Aircraft Corporation has yet to release its own dimension, weight and performance statistics for the J-10 and twin-seat J-10S. Barring such a release it is not possible to know from open sources or from what may appear to be reasonably sound estimates, what is the real performance of the J-10. Such information remains a state secret.

We do not know how many J-10s the PLA Air Force will purchase. Some analysts estimate the PLAAF may only purchase 300 to 400 J-10s. At the 2003 Moscow Airshow a Russian source gave the author his estimate that total lifetime production for the J-10 could reach 1,200. This number has since been reported in the Department of Defense annual reports to the U.S. Congress on Chinese military modernization.

Nor do we know how quickly will modified versions emerge, or will the J-10 soon be eclipsed by a new 5th generation fighter.

In early 2005 Chinese sources told the author that "advanced" versions of the J-10 were in development, but would not elaborate.[7] In late 2005 and early 2006 reporting emerged that China was potentially basing new versions of the J-10 on a combination of up-rated and possibly thrust-vectored AL-31FN engines and new active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.[7] Such an upgrade path is quite plausible and follows the example set by other 4th generation fighters now in production. Nevertheless there is no definitive information from CAC on new versions of the J-10.

At the 2005 Moscow Airshow one Russian source believed that China&#8217;s interest in a thrust-vectored version of the AL-31FN engine was driven primarily by its intention to develop a carrier-capable version of the single-engine J-10. The combination of canard configuration, precise computer controls, and thrust vectoring might indeed allow the J-10 to achieve rather slow landing speeds, a critical factor in carrier operations safety. However, a carrier capable J-10 would require extensive airframe and undercarriage strengthening and modification. In addition this fighter would have to prove significant cost and safety advantages over the carrier-proven twin-engine Russian Sukhoi Su-33, which so far appears to be favored by the PLA for the first Chinese aircraft carrier.




Carrier bound?: Russian sources believe CAC&#8217;s interest in a thrust-vectored version of the AL-31FN is for a new aircraft carrier version of the J-10. The former Russian-Ukrainian carrier Varyag continues to undergo refurbishment in Dalian harbor for an undisclosed military purpose: Credit: RD Fisher, Chinese Internet

There is also the possibility that in the next decade that the J-10 may become eclipsed by a new 5th generation (4th generation in China) combat aircraft. J-10 program director Liu Gaozhou recently stated that, "&#8230;we are researching and developing a fourth generation to meet the requirements of defending the motherland."[8]

A Chinese source disclosed in early 2005 that CAC was considering a program to build a "F-35" class fighter. This would likely mean that CAC is considering stealthy, AESA-radar equipped, internal weapon carrying high performance combat aircraft. It is logical that CAC would consider such a "lightweight" fighter project, inasmuch as Shenyang seems to be building "heavy" fighters. Nevertheless, brochures from the 601 Design Institute, usually associated with CAC, appear to indicate they are considering a "heavy" twin-engine 5th generation design that may be in competition with Shenyang&#8217;s longstanding 5th generation fighter program. However, Shenyang&#8217;s revelation of an advanced forward-swept wing but single-engine 5th generation fighter concept at the recent 2006 Zhuhai Airshow, may mean it also is aiming for an &#8220;affordable&#8221; next-generation design.




5th generation concepts?: The yellow image from a 601 Institute brochure may indicate CAC&#8217;s interest in developing a heavy twin-engine 5th generation fighter. The Shenyang concept was revealed in November 2006. Source: Chinese Internet

Conclusion

*All indications are that China has successfully completed the development and commenced deployment of a competitive 4th generation combat aircraft, that when modified with better engines and AESA radar, perhaps in the near-term, will provide the PLAAF and its clients with a multi-role combat aircraft competitive with advanced versions of the F-16C/D Block 50+ and the Boeing F/A-18E/F. Even with advanced features, the J-10 will be sure to beat the U.S. fighters in terms of price, which offers the chance of real success in the market. There are indications it could sell for between $25 and $40 million, much better than the $60 million Chile recently paid for F-16s.
*
Furthermore, as Liu Gaozhou and other Chinese press reports have elaborated, the J-10 and J-11 &#8220;indigenization&#8221; programs have allowed China to give a relatively young cadre of aircraft, engine, component and weapons engineers their first taste of success. Having mastered the initial version of the J-10 and its many subsystems, it should not take long for upgraded models to follow, and this broad experience can be expected to accelerate progress on 5th generation combat aircraft programs.

This is not good news for any of China&#8217;s neighbors: not for Japan, or Korea, or for Taiwan, which was just had its request for a small number of new F-16 Block 50s rebuffed by Washington. *Nor is it good news for India, once the J-10 lands in Pakistan. Middle Eastern and Latin American countries may prove interested as well.* This news will disappoint Russians who had looked to a steady stream of Chinese purchases to fund their own advanced aircraft development. *Finally, this not good news for the United States, which will now require far more than the U.S. Air Force&#8217;s currently planned 182 Lockheed-Martin F-22, the only 5th generation fighter available to the U.S. which offers decisive superiority over the J-10 and J-11. Nor can the U.S. cannot rest on its laurels*. China should not be expected to take another 20 years to unveil its 5th generation fighter designs.


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## Arsalan

come on friend, these are very very old articles and all these points have already been discussed to death. most of the members will agree with this!
let us move forward now. it will be much better for all of us if you can come up with some latest informationabout the FC20 and not the one that is already known to all and have been discussed!

i hope you will understand!
thanks dear!

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> come on friend, these are very very old articles and all these points have already been discussed to death. most of the members will agree with this!
> let us move forward now. it will be much better for all of us if you can come up with some latest informationabout the FC20 and not the one that is already known to all and have been discussed!
> 
> i hope you will understand!
> thanks dear!
> 
> regards!


ok I am trying to get as much info as possible


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> ok I am trying to get as much info as possible



that is what will really be appreciated by anyone and everyone here!
just keep up with the good work and try to avoide repeatition of years old news that have been discussed in detail!

i hope you understand this and its benifits for all of us!

regards!


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## a1b2c145

J10 refueling


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## SBD-3

a1b2c145 said:


> J10 refueling



this is JF-17 snaps i think they could be posted on relevant thread


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## pakpower

Hello to all 

I hope all you guys are doing fine and well. I keep get confused by people remards about JF-17 that it's a low tech jet it can't compete against the likes of SU-30MKI, Rafale, MK2, Mig 29 etc... and the list goes on and on.

So now my question is this from all you guys that why than PAF insisting to procure lot's of these jets i heard about 250-350 if the JF-17 is not that capable?

If this the case then it's total no must be reduce to let's say about 100 and procure FC-20's in big no's likes of 200, and a squardon of two Rafale if our chiefs of the country allow this country to build and didn't loot this country much let some money go into the treasure box of this country and not in their pockets and personal bank accounts.


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## TaimiKhan

pakpower said:


> Hello to all
> 
> I hope all you guys are doing fine and well. I keep get confused by people remards about JF-17 that it's a low tech jet it can't compete against the likes of SU-30MKI, Rafale, MK2, Mig 29 etc... and the list goes on and on.
> 
> So now my question is this from all you guys that why than PAF insisting to procure lot's of these jets i heard about 250-350 if the JF-17 is not that capable?
> 
> If this the case then it's total no must be reduce to let's say about 100 and procure FC-20's in big no's likes of 200, and a squardon of two Rafale if our chiefs of the country allow this country to build and didn't loot this country much let some money go into the treasure box of this country and not in their pockets and personal bank accounts.



Dear, only Indians over here say that JF-17 is not a capable aircraft, we Pakistani's are in full agreement that its a capable aircraft for its size and will keep on getting much much better in future. 
Plus, comparing it with a twin engined aircraft is a total mis-match. 
u can't fight a Light Weight Competitor with a Heavy Weight Contender. J-10 may become a contender to Su-30 series but not JF-17 for the time being. 

PAF is a very sound and sensible organization, they know what they are doing, and they are going with a lo-hi combination. One light weight contender for Indian LCA kind of aircraft, and one heavy weight contender J-10 kind for the MMRCA & Su-30 type aircraft. 

PAF strength will never be stagnant at 350 to 450 combat aircraft, as time passes it will increase also. 300 JF17s, plus 100s of J-10s and some other latest types too.


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## SBD-3

taimikhan said:


> PAF strength will never be stagnant at 350 to 450 combat aircraft, as time passes it will increase also. *300 JF17s*, plus 100s of J-10s and some other latest types too.



JFs will stay 200 to 250 im expecting more FC-20 or a new platform after comploetion of induction of JF-17


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## TaimiKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> JFs will stay 200 to 250 im expecting more FC-20 or a new platform after completion of induction of JF-17



u never know, if the future versions performs exceptionally & are meeting the requirements sufficiently then the number of production can go more then 250. Its not a hard and fast rule. When F-16 was made, no one even the USAF would have thought that they would buy thousands of them or LM had expected it to be such an exceptional & popular plane. F-22 had a production figure of approx 400+, but now i guess in operation there are no more then 200 or 300 and the production has stopped. 
The start figure for JF-17 was 150, raised to 250 and some talking about 300 or so. I guess time will tell.


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## SBD-3

taimikhan said:


> u never know, if the future versions performs exceptionally & are meeting the requirements sufficiently then the number of production can go more then 250. Its not a hard and fast rule. When F-16 was made, no one even the USAF would have thought that they would buy thousands of them or LM had expected it to be such an exceptional & popular plane. F-22 had a production figure of approx 400+, but now i guess in operation there are no more then 200 or 300 and the production has stopped.
> The start figure for JF-17 was 150, raised to 250 and some talking about 300 or so. I guess time will tell.



Yes but even if the plane performs well and with MRCA in IAF pocket.PAF will definatly look for more advanced aircrafts like JXX but JF-17 will be kept alive for export customers i wonder if Thunder will be watered down for exports


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## DANGER-ZONE

what is this?
wing tip missile?
confusing


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## DANGER-ZONE

this is how it is made.
j10b DSI


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## DANGER-ZONE



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## wangrong

---------- Post added at 11:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 AM ----------

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## SBD-3

danger-zone said:


> what is this?
> wing tip missile?
> confusing


Yes PAF do want FC-20s to carry two SRAAM at wingtips just like F-16


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## a1b2c145

PLA also use K-8 to train their pilots
we should also use them to train pilots for JF-17 AND FC-20


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## SBD-3

a1b2c145 said:


> PLA also use K-8 to train their pilots
> we should also use them to train pilots for JF-17 AND FC-20



obviously as training ACs they are primarily used for F-16 and others so they will also be used for FC-20 and JF-17


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## TaimiKhan

a1b2c145 said:


> PLA also use K-8 to train their pilots
> we should also use them to train pilots for JF-17 AND FC-20




Pakistan is already using K-8 and a newer version K-8P, but its an intermediate jet trianer, u can't train pilots of JF-17 & FC-20 on them, there is a full pilot conversion procedure in PAF. Basic Trainer is MushshaK, then comes the Intermediate Trainer K-8,K-8P & T-37, then the advance trainer FT-7, FT-6, and after this comes the assigned fighter air crafts.


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## MZUBAIR

pakpower said:


> Hello to all
> 
> I hope all you guys are doing fine and well. I keep get confused by people remards about JF-17 that it's a low tech jet it can't compete against the likes of SU-30MKI, Rafale, MK2, Mig 29 etc... and the list goes on and on.
> 
> So now my question is this from all you guys that why than PAF insisting to procure lot's of these jets i heard about 250-350 if the JF-17 is not that capable?
> 
> If this the case then it's total no must be reduce to let's say about 100 and procure FC-20's in big no's likes of 200, and a squardon of two Rafale if our chiefs of the country allow this country to build and didn't loot this country much let some money go into the treasure box of this country and not in their pockets and personal bank accounts.



Your answer is in your question. 
PAF is planned 250 + coz its capable to mature and can be compared to SU-30 MKI, Rafeal and others in couple of years. 

New French Engine (also used in Rafeal), latest western avonics and various radars including AESA radar (negotiation is under way with SELEX) is under evaluation for JF-17. With these new specs JF-17 would be compared with MKI and Rafeal, etc.

At the moment u can compare JF-17 with MK2 & Mig 29. JF-17 is using RD-93 engine which is varient of RD-33 (used in Mig 29).

U can consult JF-17 thread to know more abt it.


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## EagleEyes

Nice! So guys what are some major differences?

DSI is there.
Changes underneath the aircraft.

This is very nice development.


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## TaimiKhan

WebMaster said:


> Nice! So guys what are some major differences?
> 
> DSI is there.
> Changes underneath the aircraft.
> 
> This is very nice development.



ECM system at the top of the tail rudder, the pylons under the wings are also new, their purpose is not yet clear, some say some kind of ECM thing and some say just for testing purposes. 

IRST in the nose section, new kind of radar may be, as there are three strips on each side of the new J-10B, one at the nose cockpit area, one at the back of the fuselage near the engine, and one on the tail area. Same strips seen on the UAE F-16 E/F Block 60, giving speculation that an AESA radar is being tested or might be integrated in future, plus the nose has also become little flatter then the previous oval or round nose.

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## SBD-3

here is a another cool stuff for every1


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## Super Falcon

very hot man not so cool


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## Arsalan

pakpower said:


> Hello to all
> 
> I hope all you guys are doing fine and well. I keep get confused by people remards about JF-17 that it's a low tech jet it can't compete against the likes of SU-30MKI, Rafale, MK2, Mig 29 etc... and the list goes on and on.
> 
> So now my question is this from all you guys that why than PAF insisting to procure lot's of these jets i heard about 250-350 if the JF-17 is not that capable?
> 
> If this the case then it's total no must be reduce to let's say about 100 and procure FC-20's in big no's likes of 200, and a squardon of two Rafale if our chiefs of the country allow this country to build and didn't loot this country much let some money go into the treasure box of this country and not in their pockets and personal bank accounts.


the answer to your question comes in two parts:
firstly, the JF17 is a truely capable plane. it is among the best of its calss! the Su30 is of a different league, it is a heavy weight contendor while JF17 is a light weight plane, this surely have a significatn effect of the performance and role of both these aircrafts! let us not the hread into JF17 vs Su30 thread so yes, currently the number of BVR that su carries and the radar to give it an edge over the su30 but together with AWE&C and employing larger numbers of JF 17 into a battle will help us out to some extent. remember that the JF is much more fuel eficient and more importantly maintainance friendly compared to Su so can easily be employed in greater numbers as comapred to Su30!
secondly th JF17 is designed to be produced in blocks! the same as F16! this means that the plane was designed keeping in view the requirment of future upgrades! we are just producing block 1 and news and reports of upgradations for block 2 are in the air, now you better guess what the latter blocks will come up with! i mean it can be altogether a different aircraft in latter blocks, the evolution of F16 from block 1 o block 60 is there as an example! i bet it will be better then the F16 as is designed for a BVR role and still is on par with the falcons in dog fights!
all in all, JF17 is a great potential plane and will work wonders for PAF!

*i hope you have got the point now!*

regards


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> JFs will stay 200 to 250 im expecting more FC-20 or a new platform after comploetion of induction of JF-17




you m=ight be right on this but you know it is all about the system gets matured and in evoloved as the time passes!
the F16 blk52 are on par wiht the FC20 deeloped now and the first blk of F16s were not even a match for the JF17,
you know, the F16 programme is a real inspiration for me, the way it have evolved from its block turning it into a new generation fighter aircraft! i hope the same is possible for the JF17, it have good market potential, and have the potential of heavy upgrades! this is what make the JF17 a very potent aircraft!
we may end up with more JF17 if the project matures nicely and upgradations are done wisely!
anyhow at the time, it seems that your idea of 250 JF and some more FC20 is the call of the day!

regards!


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## SBD-3

Super Falcon said:


> very hot man not so cool



Lolz i was afraid of being banned so that's why I rephrased it


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## Arsalan

no, you are not going to baned for such stuff, i mean to say, i hope not!!

just keep up with the good work that you are doing and that will prevent you from being banned, i mean keep up with the infos and some new reports!

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> no, you are not going to baned for such stuff, i mean to say, i hope not!!
> 
> just keep up with the good work that you are doing and that will prevent you from being banned, i mean keep up with the infos and some new reports!
> 
> regards!



lolz sure dude


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## hj786

taimikhan said:


> IRST in the nose section, new kind of radar may be, as there are three strips on each side of the new J-10B, one at the nose cockpit area, one at the back of the fuselage near the engine, and one on the tail area. Same strips seen on the UAE F-16 E/F Block 60, giving speculation that an AESA radar is being tested or might be integrated in future, plus the nose has also become little flatter then the previous oval or round nose.



Those "strips" are seen on cargo aircraft like C-130 Hercules, they are not for AESA radars, they are called "slime lights" and their purpose has nothing to do with any kind of radar. The part that has raised speculation on AESA radar is the slanted join between nose radome and fuselage, which you can also see in F-16E/F.


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## bigmoneymaker

china will always keep their high edge technology in military a secret, as the old quotation from dao de jing ''superior weapon of a country, will not easily be displayed to others''. discussion about very detailed info seems meaningless unless reliable *maybe official news released.


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## SBD-3

China keeps thing secret.its their national policy.Even minor things are kept secret but PAF was the 1st one given access to highly classified J-10 project


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## SBD-3

yesterday i was watching Future Weapons-JSF part 1 on you tube i saw something that sent a spark in my brain 
while watching this movie there comes a scene where there are two models (likely F-22 and JF-35) but for a split second the camera turns to the other ones and you know what?
i saw this! (i have encircled it)

it can be seen for only a second or less than that.so what that could a twin tail canard fighter be doing over there? (The JXX in IMHO) (perhaps they are considering its potential compition in designing JSF
I posted in JXX thread but it is inactive need some comments on this

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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> yesterday i was watching Future Weapons-JSF part 1 on you tube i saw something that sent a spark in my brain
> while watching this movie there comes a scene where there are two models (likely F-22 and JF-35) but for a split second the camera turns to the other ones and you know what?
> i saw this! (i have encircled it)
> 
> it can be seen for only a second or less than that.so what that could a twin tail canard fighter be doing over there? (The JXX in IMHO) (perhaps they are considering its potential compition in designing JSF
> I posted in JXX thread but it is inactive need some comments on this



nice point friend! infavt rwlly nice observation!
but
it is a single engine fighter but surely in something different from waht we have sen flying! definetly a new jet!

good work!


regards!


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> China keeps thing secret.its their national policy.Even minor things are kept secret but PAF was the 1st one given access to highly classified J-10 project



and that too happened after lots of persuing and assuring them that we will purchase these systems!
we have all haered about the report about the PAF officials not being given acces to the J10 easily, thatwas hard work but surely worth it!

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> nice point friend! infavt rwlly nice observation!
> but
> it is a single engine fighter but surely in something different from waht we have sen flying! definetly a new jet!
> 
> good work!
> 
> 
> regards!



thanx a lot but the question remains what could be the purpose???


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## wangrong




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## TaimiKhan

Wangrong, are the BVR missile on these J-10 PL-11 or PL-12 ??

From the fin design of the missile they look like PL-11.


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## wangrong

taimikhan said:


> Wangrong, are the BVR missile on these J-10 PL-11 or PL-12 ??
> 
> From the fin design of the missile they look like PL-11.



PL8 and PL11


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## DANGER-ZONE

hasnain0099 said:


> yesterday i was watching Future Weapons-JSF part 1 on you tube i saw something that sent a spark in my brain
> while watching this movie there comes a scene where there are two models (likely F-22 and JF-35) but for a split second the camera turns to the other ones and you know what?
> i saw this! (i have encircled it)
> 
> it can be seen for only a second or less than that.so what that could a twin tail canard fighter be doing over there? (The JXX in IMHO) (perhaps they are considering its potential compition in designing JSF
> I posted in JXX thread but it is inactive need some comments on this



dear thats not j-xx.
hav u lost ur mind,u want to see chinese j-xx on english chaneel Discovery with USAF top stealth aircrafts on table.
americans n britains will never demonstrate or show any aircraft which is not from there forces.
now listen carefully this aircraft is an x-plane on usaf,i dont really know that it is underconstuction or rejected experment.but i found it nearly 2 years ago when i was searching for x-32,and its name is x32too.





i dont know much about it,but its a Boings or LHMs aircraft.and i think its a STOVL bird much similar to F-35.the aircraft in ur pic is much more similar to its structure.
i hope this works 
regards

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## Arsalan

danger-zone said:


> dear thats not j-xx.
> hav u lost ur mind,u want to see chinese j-xx on english chaneel Discovery with USAF top stealth aircrafts on table.
> americans n britains will never demonstrate or show any aircraft which is not from there forces.
> now listen carefully this aircraft is an x-plane on usaf,i dont really know that it is underconstuction or rejected experment.but i found it nearly 2 years ago when i was searching for x-32,and its name is x32too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i dont know much about it,but its a Boings or LHMs aircraft.and i think its a STOVL bird much similar to F-35.the aircraft in ur pic is much more similar to its structure.
> i hope this works
> regards



X32 was a boeing project, a contestant of JSF programme in which it was beaten by F35!
the pic mentioned here is not an X32, i doubt it to be a chines jet but still cannot say anything about the project as it is something that is not public!
anyways here is a brief report about X32, i hope this will help you and hasnain!



> The Boeing X-32 was a multi-purpose jet fighter in the Joint Strike Fighter contest. It lost to the Lockheed Martin X-35 demonstrator which was further developed into the F-35 Lightning II.


Boeing X-32 - JSF prototype

regards!


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## Arsalan

well i have somethng to add!
yes i searched on that pic and have fond some thing realting to it!

it seems to be some sort of platform to be used by NASA. well *danger_zone *you were absolutely right, the link claim the thing to be an X32 but it is different from the X32 we know about!
here is the link:
The latest X projects..., page 1

i guess *hasnain* this will clear the situation to some extent, yes is a generation X platform but for NASA and not for USAF!but to add aother twist in the tail, thw plane in the pic is carrying USAF markings!!!!
CONFUSED??? ??? so am i!!!!

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## SBD-3

but look at the design of the X-32 and the one encircled the X-32 wing shape is daimond whereas the one encircled is a proper delta shape and furthermore the fan on the top is also missing and also canards are much bigger than X-32 and twin tails are at the wings rather than at the end of the wing


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## Arsalan

i am refering to the pics that danger zone have posted. that one and the one you have encircled apper to be the same!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i am refering to the pics that danger zone have posted. that one and the one you have encircled apper to be the same!



here is what i m talking about


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## DANGER-ZONE

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well i have somethng to add!
> yes i searched on that pic and have fond some thing realting to it!
> 
> it seems to be some sort of platform to be used by NASA. well *danger_zone *you were absolutely right, the link claim the thing to be an X32 but it is different from the X32 we know about!
> here is the link:
> The latest X projects..., page 1
> 
> i guess *hasnain* this will clear the situation to some extent, yes is a generation X platform but for NASA and not for USAF!but to add aother twist in the tail, thw plane in the pic is carrying USAF markings!!!!
> CONFUSED??? ??? so am i!!!!



no arsalan i said that its name is also x32,well i know about boing x32 very much.and this is an preety old aircraft and its first xperiment was done a few years after x35 n x32,i saw this plane on Aerospaceweb.org | Reference for Aviation, Space, Design, and Engineering almost two or threeyears ago,i donty really remeber when!but now they have delete its database from there,thats why i cant tell u more about it.but its picturs r still on internet with the name x32.


hasnain0099 said:


> here is what i m talking about



hey hasnain,the picture i hav posted here is of first PT about 8 to ten years old.i think they have changed its sturcture a little bit.and the lifting fan,it would be covered like F35.that is not much different from my pic just a few angels of stabilater,wings and canards r different and other things r same.like the first yf22 and product f22 r very different from each other,if u try to observe.
if this aircraft is still under development,then they might have changed its structure a little bit like f22.


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## SBD-3

danger-zone said:


> no arsalan i said that its name is also x32,well i know about boing x32 very much.and this is an preety old aircraft and its first xperiment was done a few years after x35 n x32,i saw this plane on Aerospaceweb.org | Reference for Aviation, Space, Design, and Engineering almost two or threeyears ago,i donty really remeber when!but now they have delete its database from there,thats why i cant tell u more about it.but its picturs r still on internet with the name x32.
> 
> 
> hey hasnain,the picture i hav posted here is of first PT about 8 to ten years old.i think they have changed its sturcture a little bit.and the lifting fan,it would be covered like F35.that is not much different from my pic just a few angels of stabilater,wings and canards r different and other things r same.like the first yf22 and product f22 r very different from each other,if u try to observe.
> if this aircraft is still under development,then they might have changed its structure a little bit like f22.



still under development? i mean USAF has scraped most of the x planes latest X-44 MANTA that was 6th gen .With two 5 gen in pocket why US would waste funds on third??


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## ironman

Some more Information to an already existing post.

*FC-20 M-MRCA Emerges​*
China&#8217;s Sichuan-based Chengdu Aerospace Corp (CAC) and its affiliated 611 Institute has begun a hectic but structured flight-test programme for the FC-20 medium multi-role combat aircraft (M-MRCA), whose launch export customer is the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). The PAF has an initial requirement for 36 single-seaters and four tandem-seat operational conversion trainers, and envisages a total requirement for 80 FC-20s distributed among four squadrons. The first single-seat FC-20 prototype was rolled out by CAC last December and it made its maiden flight last March. Derived from the CAC-built J-10A Vigorous Dragon M-MRCA, the FC-20 incorporates an undernose modified lightweight air inlet, redesigned vertical tailfin, strengthened underwing inner pylons designed for carrying standoff precision-guided munitions (PGM) like the glide kit-equipped LS-6, nose-mounted infra-red search-and-track (IRST) system, a glass cockpit equipped with a holographic wide-angle heads-up display (HUD), a pair of inverted-gull wings (with the inner upper portion extending slightly downward, while the outer portion extending flat), a fixed in-flight refuelling probe, a large vertical tail, twin ventral stabilisers for providing greater stability at high angles of attack, and a single AL-31FN-M1 turbofan engine rated at 132.4kN thrust with afterburning. In August 2005 China had inked a US$300 million contract in with Russia&#8217;s Rosoboronexport State Corp to acquire an initial 100 such engines. The entire R & D phase of the FC-20 is being carried out under the oversight of China&#8217;s state-owned China Aviation Industry Corp (AVIC).

The FC-20 will be able to carry 4.5 tonnes of weapons payload, and will come equipped with 11 hardpoints for carrying a wide range of air combat missiles (both within-visual-range and beyond-visual-range) and PGMs. The FC-20&#8217;s performance parameters include a maximum combat radius of 2,540km (1,370nm) in a hi-lo-hi mission profile, or of 1,310km (710nm) in a lo-lo-lo mission profile when carrying a 1,810kg (4,000lb) weapons payload.

The M-MRCA will have an empty weight of 9,750kg, maximum takeoff weight of 19,277kg, internal fuel capacity of 4,500kg, maximum speed of Mach 2 at high altitude and Mach 1.2 at sea level, takeoff run of 500 metres, combat radius of 1,100km, and a service ceiling of 18,000 metres. The FC-20 has a wingspan of 8.78 metres, overall length of 14.57 metres, height of 4.78 metres, and a gross wing area of 33.1 square metres. The airframe features high-quality welding, but is overwhelmingly of metallic construction, with composites accounting for only 12&#37; of the fuselage area. CAC and its affiliated 611 Institute are now preparing to roll-out a tandem-seat deep interdictor variant of the FC-20, which, like the single-seater, will be equipped with a laser target acquisition/designation pod, laser-/GPS-guided PGMs, as well as PL-9C within-visual-range and PL-12 beyond-visual-range air combat missiles built by the Luoyang Opto-Electro Technology Development Centre. Design of this variant of the FC-20 is derived from the J-10B operational conversion trainer that made its maiden flight on December 26, 2003.

The FC-20&#8217;s tandem-seat variant will feature a stretched forward fuselage and a single-piece bubble canopy. Its dorsal spine will be enlarged to accommodate those avionics displaced by the rear cockpit. The PAF is widely expected to equip its FC-20s with the SELEX Galileo-built X-band Vixen 500E airborne active phased-array fire-control radar.

*The glass cockpit avionics suite will includes a wide-angle holographic HUD with up-front control panel and a video camera, twin monochrome AMLCD-based multifunction displays, a single colour AMLCD head-down display, infra-red sensors for a helmet-mounted sight, hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) controls, ring-laser-gyro-based inertial navigation system, air data computer, ARW-9101A radar warning receiver, Type 634 digital quadruplex fly-by-wire flight control system using a MIL-STD-1553B digital data bus, and a digital fuel management system and stores management system.*

*The FC-20&#8217;s compound delta-wing configuration will offer two important aerodynamic qualities. The swept leading edge of the wing will stay ahead of the shock-wave generated by the FC-20&#8217;s nose during supersonic flight, thus making the compound delta-wing a very efficient aerodynamic wing shape for supersonic flight. The leading edge of compound delta-wing will also generate a massive vortex that will attach itself to the upper surface of the wing during high angle-of-attack (AoA) manoeuvres, resulting in very high stall points.
The FC-20&#8217;s leading edge extensions at the root of the leading edge of the main wings will remain out of airflow in cruise flight and will be used during high AoA manoeuvres to generate a high-speed vortex that will stay attached to the top of the main wing. This in turn will maintain a low-pressure zone over the upper surface of the wing, generating lift beyond what would have been the stall point for a single delta-wing. The compound delta-wing has another quality significant for the FC-20: this wing profile offers increased survivability by having increased structural and airflow stability.
*
*The FC-20&#8217;s twin canard surfaces, unlike a conventional tailplane which they have replaced, will generate positive lift. During high AoA manoeuvres the canard surfaces will stall first. This will cause the nose of the aircraft to pitch down and prevent the main wing from stalling&#8212;a valuable feature for a combat aircraft. At the same time, however, the canard surfaces will create a downwash which will degrade the main wing&#8217;s performance. Canards will also make it very difficult to apply flaps: normally, extending flaps causes a downward movement of the nose, which is compensated by the tailplane. However, in the FC-20&#8217;s case, there is no tailplane and therefore there is nothing required to compensate for the effect of the flaps.

PGMs to be carried by the FC-20 will include China National Precision Machinery Import-Export Corp&#8217;s (CPMIEC) C-704 anti-ship cruise missile with 35km range, the C-802KD air-launched anti-ship cruise missile with 120km range, YJ-91 supersonic anti-ship cruise missile with 70km range and the YJ-98 supersonic anti-radiation missile with 200km range, 500kg FT-1 GPS-guided bomb, 250kg FT-3 GPS-guided bomb, and the LS-6 500kg bomb that is fitted with glide kit comprising twin pop-out wings. The LS-6 has a range of 40km when launched from an altitude of 30,000 feet.*

*Yet another air-launched PGM that will be carried by the FC-20 is the 500kg LT-2 laser-guided bomb, currently operational with the PLA Navy&#8217;s JH-7As and the PLAAF&#8217;s Q-5M tactical strike aircraft. Laser target acquisition-cum-designation for this bomb will be provided by a pod developed and built by CLETRI. The LT-2 is essentially a licence-built KAB-500L laser-guided bomb that has a nominal weight of 500kg (1,102lb), and comes fitted with a semi-active laser seeker and guidance fins, turning it into a guided, unpowered glide bomb.*

Last Updated ( Monday, 27 July 2009 )


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## Arsalan

the part highlighted in red is the mot important one for me! that really is a hell of precesion munitions that the bird carries and is able to deleiver at pin point target!. the will surely be the most cherished feature of the FC20 or atleast one od them as it will give PAF with real precision strike element, whether it be enemy SAM sites, raars or warships!
good going~~~
i hope we get the comlplete package with these birds!

regards!


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## Super Falcon




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## Super Falcon

very impresive but what type of countermeasures do J 10 have against sams and enemy lock on its very important of war how to dominate skies


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## IceCold

ironman said:


> Some more Information to an already existing post.
> 
> *FC-20 M-MRCA Emerges​*
> Chinas Sichuan-based Chengdu Aerospace Corp (CAC) and its affiliated 611 Institute has begun a hectic but structured flight-test programme for the FC-20 medium multi-role combat aircraft (M-MRCA), whose launch export customer is the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). The PAF has an initial requirement for 36 single-seaters and four tandem-seat operational conversion trainers, and envisages a total requirement for 80 FC-20s distributed among four squadrons. The first single-seat FC-20 prototype was rolled out by CAC last December and it made its maiden flight last March. Derived from the CAC-built J-10A Vigorous Dragon M-MRCA, the FC-20 incorporates an undernose modified lightweight air inlet, redesigned vertical tailfin, strengthened underwing inner pylons designed for carrying standoff precision-guided munitions (PGM) like the glide kit-equipped LS-6, nose-mounted infra-red search-and-track (IRST) system, a glass cockpit equipped with a holographic wide-angle heads-up display (HUD), a pair of inverted-gull wings (with the inner upper portion extending slightly downward, while the outer portion extending flat), a fixed in-flight refuelling probe, a large vertical tail, twin ventral stabilisers for providing greater stability at high angles of attack, and a single AL-31FN-M1 turbofan engine rated at 132.4kN thrust with afterburning. In August 2005 China had inked a US$300 million contract in with Russias Rosoboronexport State Corp to acquire an initial 100 such engines. The entire R & D phase of the FC-20 is being carried out under the oversight of Chinas state-owned China Aviation Industry Corp (AVIC).
> 
> The FC-20 will be able to carry 4.5 tonnes of weapons payload, and will come equipped with 11 hardpoints for carrying a wide range of air combat missiles (both within-visual-range and beyond-visual-range) and PGMs. The FC-20s performance parameters include a maximum combat radius of 2,540km (1,370nm) in a hi-lo-hi mission profile, or of 1,310km (710nm) in a lo-lo-lo mission profile when carrying a 1,810kg (4,000lb) weapons payload.
> 
> The M-MRCA will have an empty weight of 9,750kg, maximum takeoff weight of 19,277kg, internal fuel capacity of 4,500kg, maximum speed of Mach 2 at high altitude and Mach 1.2 at sea level, takeoff run of 500 metres, combat radius of 1,100km, and a service ceiling of 18,000 metres. The FC-20 has a wingspan of 8.78 metres, overall length of 14.57 metres, height of 4.78 metres, and a gross wing area of 33.1 square metres. The airframe features high-quality welding, but is overwhelmingly of metallic construction, with composites accounting for only 12% of the fuselage area. CAC and its affiliated 611 Institute are now preparing to roll-out a tandem-seat deep interdictor variant of the FC-20, which, like the single-seater, will be equipped with a laser target acquisition/designation pod, laser-/GPS-guided PGMs, as well as PL-9C within-visual-range and PL-12 beyond-visual-range air combat missiles built by the Luoyang Opto-Electro Technology Development Centre. Design of this variant of the FC-20 is derived from the J-10B operational conversion trainer that made its maiden flight on December 26, 2003.
> 
> The FC-20s tandem-seat variant will feature a stretched forward fuselage and a single-piece bubble canopy. Its dorsal spine will be enlarged to accommodate those avionics displaced by the rear cockpit. The PAF is widely expected to equip its FC-20s with the SELEX Galileo-built X-band Vixen 500E airborne active phased-array fire-control radar.
> 
> *The glass cockpit avionics suite will includes a wide-angle holographic HUD with up-front control panel and a video camera, twin monochrome AMLCD-based multifunction displays, a single colour AMLCD head-down display, infra-red sensors for a helmet-mounted sight, hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) controls, ring-laser-gyro-based inertial navigation system, air data computer, ARW-9101A radar warning receiver, Type 634 digital quadruplex fly-by-wire flight control system using a MIL-STD-1553B digital data bus, and a digital fuel management system and stores management system.*
> 
> *The FC-20s compound delta-wing configuration will offer two important aerodynamic qualities. The swept leading edge of the wing will stay ahead of the shock-wave generated by the FC-20s nose during supersonic flight, thus making the compound delta-wing a very efficient aerodynamic wing shape for supersonic flight. The leading edge of compound delta-wing will also generate a massive vortex that will attach itself to the upper surface of the wing during high angle-of-attack (AoA) manoeuvres, resulting in very high stall points.
> The FC-20s leading edge extensions at the root of the leading edge of the main wings will remain out of airflow in cruise flight and will be used during high AoA manoeuvres to generate a high-speed vortex that will stay attached to the top of the main wing. This in turn will maintain a low-pressure zone over the upper surface of the wing, generating lift beyond what would have been the stall point for a single delta-wing. The compound delta-wing has another quality significant for the FC-20: this wing profile offers increased survivability by having increased structural and airflow stability.
> *
> *The FC-20s twin canard surfaces, unlike a conventional tailplane which they have replaced, will generate positive lift. During high AoA manoeuvres the canard surfaces will stall first. This will cause the nose of the aircraft to pitch down and prevent the main wing from stallinga valuable feature for a combat aircraft. At the same time, however, the canard surfaces will create a downwash which will degrade the main wings performance. Canards will also make it very difficult to apply flaps: normally, extending flaps causes a downward movement of the nose, which is compensated by the tailplane. However, in the FC-20s case, there is no tailplane and therefore there is nothing required to compensate for the effect of the flaps.
> 
> PGMs to be carried by the FC-20 will include China National Precision Machinery Import-Export Corps (CPMIEC) C-704 anti-ship cruise missile with 35km range, the C-802KD air-launched anti-ship cruise missile with 120km range, YJ-91 supersonic anti-ship cruise missile with 70km range and the YJ-98 supersonic anti-radiation missile with 200km range, 500kg FT-1 GPS-guided bomb, 250kg FT-3 GPS-guided bomb, and the LS-6 500kg bomb that is fitted with glide kit comprising twin pop-out wings. The LS-6 has a range of 40km when launched from an altitude of 30,000 feet.*
> 
> *Yet another air-launched PGM that will be carried by the FC-20 is the 500kg LT-2 laser-guided bomb, currently operational with the PLA Navys JH-7As and the PLAAFs Q-5M tactical strike aircraft. Laser target acquisition-cum-designation for this bomb will be provided by a pod developed and built by CLETRI. The LT-2 is essentially a licence-built KAB-500L laser-guided bomb that has a nominal weight of 500kg (1,102lb), and comes fitted with a semi-active laser seeker and guidance fins, turning it into a guided, unpowered glide bomb.*
> 
> Last Updated ( Monday, 27 July 2009 )



I dont understand what are we planning to gain out of this aircraft since by the time the delivery starts to the PAF and a suitable strength of squardon is added, it will roughly be the same time when India might be getting its next 5th generation fighter. What are we going to do about that or are we simply of the opinion that by the time India gets its Pak-FA, China will to have the so called J-xx ready so we need not worry.


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## Arsalan

IceCold said:


> I dont understand what are we planning to gain out of this aircraft since by the time the delivery starts to the PAF and a suitable strength of squardon is added, it will roughly be the same time when India might be getting its next 5th generation fighter. What are we going to do about that or are we simply of the opinion that by the time India gets its Pak-FA, China will to have the so called J-xx ready so we need not worry.



what makes you think so sir!
by the time we get them in operational squadron strength, the indian will be in last satge or would have just finialized the deal for MRCA, will be getting last of there Su30z let alone the Fifth generation!! 
it will take hell of time to reach there!
i hope yo understand!

regards!


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## IceCold

arsalanaslam123 said:


> what makes you think so sir!
> by the time we get them in operational squadron strength, the indian will be in last satge or would have just finialized the deal for MRCA, will be getting last of there Su30z let alone the Fifth generation!!
> it will take hell of time to reach there!
> *i hope yo understand*!
> 
> regards!



Nope i dont. I am not talking about MRCA. PAK-FA has started and Indian are planning of inducting it by 2015 even if we take it as an exaggerating still by 2020 PAK-FA should be in the Indian skies which means where are we left? nowhere


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## pakpower

> Nope i dont. I am not talking about MRCA. PAK-FA has started and Indian are planning of inducting it by 2015 even if we take it as an exaggerating still by 2020 PAK-FA should be in the Indian skies which means where are we left? nowhere



Then what you suggest here what should PAF do to encounter that threat of 5th Generation Pak-Fa jet?

Waiting for your kind suggestion on that.


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## IceCold

pakpower said:


> Then what you suggest here what should PAF do to encounter that threat of 5th Generation Pak-Fa jet?
> 
> *Waiting for your kind suggestion on that.:enjoy*:



I dont respond well to sarcasm. And i am not suggesting anything here, merely pointing out a fact that we are not taking into account. Over sixty plus years of existence, we have lived in a fantasy world believing one pakistanis is equal to 10 indians and we have some divine strength behind us that will lead us to victory in every battle but the result has been pretty much the opposite. Hope you understand before making sarcastic remarks.


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## pakpower

> I dont respond well to sarcasm. And i am not suggesting anything here, merely pointing out a fact that we are not taking into account. Over sixty plus years of existence, we have lived in a fantasy world believing one pakistanis is equal to 10 indians and we have some divine strength behind us that will lead us to victory in every battle but the result has been pretty much the opposite. Hope you understand before making sarcastic remarks.



I am not asking you too much as you look very coutious about past, current and obviously future development, you must suggest something here from your end. When someone raise a point like this or for that matter amongst the other fields of life then that person should suggest something about it or must proivde a solution to it rather then just pointing out a problem.

Everyone can point out but it takes a guts to speak about the solution of that particular problem which he was talking about.


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## mean_bird

IceCold said:


> I dont understand what are we planning to gain out of this aircraft since by the time the delivery starts to the PAF and a suitable strength of squardon is added, it will roughly be the same time when India might be getting its next 5th generation fighter. What are we going to do about that or are we simply of the opinion that by the time India gets its Pak-FA, China will to have the so called J-xx ready so we need not worry.



Here are my views on the subject. 


I think anyone who thinks "China will have the J-XX and we'll get it from them" is living in a...I would say "unknown territory" instead of fool's paradise. While there is a good chance that PAF might be in a position to get the next Chinese aircraft if and when it comes out, there are no such guarantees.

Having said that, I believe this aircraft ( the J-10) will be quite effective for PAF given its meagre resources. Let's not forget that PAK-FA is not the only aircraft IAF will have. There would still be hundreds of 4th and 4.5 gen fighters with them. And we do not know as of yet, what the capabilities of the PAK-FA will be. Heck, we do not even fully know what the capabilities of the FC-20 will be. If it gets a good AESA radar and next gen. of missiles, it would be capable enough to make anyone think not twice but thrice before challenging it. 

Another thing is that no airforce, even the mighty USAF flies all 5th gen aircrafts. So even if China does have a J-XX and even if we are able to get hold of it, we still need to fill up the strength because we do not expect their strength to be beyond one or two squadrons, say be 2020 or 2025. They are going to be pretty expensive for a country that is struggling to buy the J-10s and JF-17s. Similarly,and as I mentioned above, neither will IAF has a complete fleet of PAK-FA. Ideally, we should get the J-10s ASAP but wishes are not always fulfilled both by our financial condition and the fact that J-10s have Russian engines. 

Moreover, I would say that its not the F-22 or the B-2 or F-117 that defeated the USSR but the financial liability to follow suite. One could argue that if you cannot match it, then why even bother. Why not even save the money to be spent on the J-10s? To that I would say, that modern wars by countries with superior hardware are only fought against those with no hardware. Otherwise put, Iraq had nothing and got invaded but say Russia or china has nothing to match the F-22 but US will never think of invading them. Even the threat of a bloody nose is better than no threat at all. With the close proximity of India and the changing environment of warefare (AWACS, BVR, SAMs,etc) FC-20 is a powerful threat for a bloody nose to anyone. 

Finally-- I do not think PAF will be (or rather should be) our primary force for deterrence for an all out war. That should go to the non-conventional weapons. The armed forces (including PAF) should be there to avoid any "limited" or "partial" war with the constant threat of the non-conventional weapons. We simply cannot invest the billions required to seek a similar joint project(s) in airforce/Navy. All we can do is optimize the resources we have and build diversified but lower cost solutions to our threat. 

Thinking smarter rather than harder should be the key to our policy. The threat from a PAK-FA is less than the threat form trying to emulate it. That's not to say that we shouldn't use our strategic/political/diplomatic ties to get whatever we can.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## IceCold

mean_bird said:


> Here are my views on the subject.
> 
> 
> I think anyone who thinks "China will have the J-XX and we'll get it from them" is living in a...I would say "unknown territory" instead of fool's paradise. While there is a good chance that PAF might be in a position to get the next Chinese aircraft if and when it comes out, there are no such guarantees.
> 
> Having said that, I believe this aircraft ( the J-10) will be quite effective for PAF given its meagre resources. Let's not forget that PAK-FA is not the only aircraft IAF will have. There would still be hundreds of 4th and 4.5 gen fighters with them. And we do not know as of yet, what the capabilities of the PAK-FA will be. Heck, we do not even fully know what the capabilities of the FC-20 will be. If it gets a good AESA radar and next gen. of missiles, it would be capable enough to make anyone think not twice but thrice before challenging it.
> 
> Another thing is that no airforce, even the mighty USAF flies all 5th gen aircrafts. So even if China does have a J-XX and even if we are able to get hold of it, we still need to fill up the strength because we do not expect their strength to be beyond one or two squadrons, say be 2020 or 2025. They are going to be pretty expensive for a country that is struggling to buy the J-10s and JF-17s. Similarly,and as I mentioned above, neither will IAF has a complete fleet of PAK-FA. Ideally, we should get the J-10s ASAP but wishes are not always fulfilled both by our financial condition and the fact that J-10s have Russian engines.
> 
> Moreover, I would say that its not the F-22 or the B-2 or F-117 that defeated the USSR but the financial liability to follow suite. One could argue that if you cannot match it, then why even bother. Why not even save the money to be spent on the J-10s? To that I would say, that modern wars by countries with superior hardware are only fought against those with no hardware. Otherwise put, Iraq had nothing and got invaded but say Russia or china has nothing to match the F-22 but US will never think of invading them. Even the threat of a bloody nose is better than no threat at all. With the close proximity of India and the changing environment of warefare (AWACS, BVR, SAMs,etc) FC-20 is a powerful threat for a bloody nose to anyone.
> 
> Finally-- I do not think PAF will be (or rather should be) our primary force for deterrence for an all out war. That should go to the non-conventional weapons. The armed forces (including PAF) should be there to avoid any "limited" or "partial" war with the constant threat of the non-conventional weapons. We simply cannot invest the billions required to seek a similar joint project(s) in airforce/Navy. All we can do is optimize the resources we have and build diversified but lower cost solutions to our threat.
> 
> Thinking smarter rather than harder should be the key to our policy. The threat from a PAK-FA is less than the threat form trying to emulate it. That's not to say that we shouldn't use our strategic/political/diplomatic ties to get whatever we can.



My concern is the time line acquiring the FC-20s. Imagine a scernario where our block-52 gets sanctioned( and the unpredictability of the US policies, its not that hard to imagine) what are we left with JF-17s and upgraded F-16s and like few members suggested maybe mirage-2000 from UAE. Now there is a big gap from the time to when we start getting the FC-20s which is 2015. Also we can all speculate about its capabilties, but the one fact that we need to keep in mind is that PAF wasnt impressed by the original J-10 and instead opted for the good old F-16s, my point is what if the same happens with FC-20 although i understand the fact that it is tailored to meet PAF requirement. We will be caught with our pants down because it will be too late and nearly impossible to fill in the huge gap as India by then will not only start receiving its MRCA but also LCA, upgraded migs, MKIs and something that we dont keep into account while discussing future indo Pakistan scenarios the PAK-FA. We can disagree with time span, but we cannot disagree with the fact that sooner or latter it will be flying in Indian colours and we have nothing to counter it. 
The first delivery for the FC-20 should have been by 2010 and within few years not only had we inducted the jet in full multiple squardon strenght but also mastered it like we have mastered F-16s and have further improved it as per our requirements and growing threat perception.

Now non conventional weapons are all good but in the end its the airforce that provides cover to these non conventional assests. Certainly they are of no value if blown even before we could launch them.
Remember the only airfield in 71 was blown by the IAF after which the PAF could not provide effective air cover to the land forces and the result is been seen by all.

My 2 cents over the issue.


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## Arsalan

IceCold said:


> Nope i dont. I am not talking about MRCA. PAK-FA has started and Indian are planning of inducting it by 2015 even if we take it as an exaggerating still by 2020 PAK-FA should be in the Indian skies which means where are we left? nowhere



sir, though i cannot raise point to your crediability but stil i doiubt this inforamtion!
the PAK-FA is stil under develpment. there is no news of any prototype and not even any instrument testing for the plane. Russian sources claimes that the chines JXX project is ahead of there one! even if we take it as a propagande claim still there is no news of PAKFA taking it to the skies...
not even a prototype yet, and after the first prototype it will take some good five or more years to get tit operational at squadron level!

regards!


----------



## PAFAce

Even the Indian Air Force Chief of Air Staff does not expect operational PAK-FA/FGFA well into the next decade (i.e., 2020+). By 2015, the IAF won't even have all the MMRCAs flying in their sky, induction for that begins 2014 at the earliest. By 2015, Russia will be lucky to have an LRIP model for testing and V&V. India will be lucky if their pilots get a taste of one of the IOC aircraft by 2017.
Source: _NOT_ my intuition, which is obviously not as well developed as yours, but Aviation Week, probably the most reliable aviation magazine around.

That gives us what, a mere decade to develop countermeasures? Hmm, I wonder how we will ever squeeze it in!



arsalanaslam123 said:


> sir, though i cannot raise point to your crediability but stil i doiubt this inforamtion!
> the PAK-FA is stil under develpment. there is no news of any prototype and not even any instrument testing for the plane. Russian sources claimes that the chines JXX project is ahead of there one! even if we take it as a propagande claim still there is no news of PAKFA taking it to the skies...
> not even a prototype yet, and after the first prototype it will take some good five or more years to get tit operational at squadron level!
> 
> regards!


Now that's an intelligent answer. But, what source claims the J-XX is ahead? I haven't come across it.


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## fatman17

View attachment 4361


just a nice picture!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> sir, though i cannot raise point to your crediability but stil i doiubt this inforamtion!
> the PAK-FA is stil under develpment. there is no news of any prototype and not even any instrument testing for the plane. *Russian sources claimes that the chines JXX project is ahead of there one!* even if we take it as a propagande claim still there is no news of PAKFA taking it to the skies...
> not even a prototype yet, and after the first prototype it will take some good five or more years to get tit operational at squadron level!
> 
> regards!


*J-XX The PLAAFs Plans for a Stealthy Fifth Generation Fighter*

There is very little information available about the J-XX. The existence of the program was first disclosed by US Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) in 1997 when J-XX was described as a 4th generation fighter to enter the service around 2015. China, however, tends to use Russian parlance, and in Russian parlance J-XX is a fifth generation fighter. Much of the information actually available is speculation - other information confuses the J-10, intended as the PLAAF answer to the latest variants of F-16, with J-XX. J-XX might be designated with J numbers between J-12 and J-14. The project has completed a stage equivalent to the USAF Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) program of the early 1980s. The fighter is thought to be in the early stages of what later led to the F/A-22 Raptor.

What is known with reasonable certainty about J-XX is that it is intended to be the Chinese response to F-22. However, this is probably for public consumption and the type should be seen as a response to F-35. This accords with a similar Russian program. This is the Sukhoi T-50 project and it is aimed at being able to counter the F-35 both operationally and in the export theatre. T-50 is not a counter to F-22. It is not likely that J-XX is intended to exceed the capability of theT-50, nor does this seem possible given the great effort and expense the US had to make to develop the F-22. The only potential spoiler behind that assessment is Chinese espionage. This is known to be excellent, extremely well funded and directed, and to have deeply penetrated all aspects of US industry up to and including Chinese acquisition of US nuclear weapons design details. So deeply penetrated is the US by China that anything is possible, including their access to some F-22 material.

Reporting on J-XX is highly varied and contains much speculation. There seems to be general agreement that it is now a twin engined, twin tailed fifth generation fighter with advanced stealth characteristics. The fighter is in the 19-21 ton class (empty) and is generally thought to have benefited from extensive Chinese industrial espionage against US industry.

China launched its next generation stealthy fighter aircraft program in the late 1990s. Two major industrial entities are primary in the program, Chengdu Aircraft Design and Research Institute (CADRI or 611 Institute) and the Shenyang Aircraft Industry Companys Shenyang Aircraft Design Institute (SADI or 601 Institute). There appear to have been three designs offered for the competition, with CADRI and SADI both offering designs for a twin-engine multi-role reduced RCS fighter with internal weapons carriage, thrust vectoring and manoeuvrability comparable to American F/A-22. The third design offered was apparently a J-10 derivative with canards, but this is believed to have been rejected early in the process.

The Shenyang Aircraft Corporation is now probably the primary production contractor, with CADRI being prime on the design of the J-XX. It is believed that each of these design houses offered their own designs, with the competition based on both companies receiving major work from it. CADRI is generally thought to have won the competition.

Development of the aircrafts subsystems, including the engine and weapon suite for J-XX, has been underway since about 2000. While available images are little more than guesses, concepts and artists impressions, they have some common features. *The most credible show a twin-engine aircraft bearing a generic resemblance to Lockheed Martin's very low radar cross section (RCS) F/A-22 Raptor multirole fighter. These common features include internal carriage of weapons. However, care must be exercised: it is not known if these illustrations are based on real data, or are based on F-22 because that is a known type.
*
Chinese military aviation is solidly based on Soviet roots and has a long history of license production of former Soviet types. Since the collapse of the USSR it has developed even deeper ties with Russia's aerospace industry. While many of these are commercial, there is a hidden world of Chinese reverse engineering of Russian technology and of their use of information also obtained by clandestine means. According to Russian reports, in about 2001 the Russian Government decided to develop a new fifth-generation fighter. The Sukhoi, Mikoyan and Yakovlev Design Bureaus partook in a design competition, which Sukhoi won with a project they refer to internally as T-50.

The Russian project has since met its milestones and the first T-50 prototype is scheduled to fly during August 2009. Systems development has been done aboard a small number of modified Su-27 series aircraft, with supercruise engines, advanced avionics and advanced radar having been tested in flight. The head of the Sukhoi Design Bureau, Mr Mikhail Pogosyan, has confirmed first flight of T-50 in Russian media. He has also confirmed that a two-seat version and a carrier version are also under consideration. During mid 2008, Russian officials confirmed that construction of the first three T-50 prototypes was underway at Sukhois Komsomolsk-na-Amur factory (KNAAPO). It was also stated that testing and evaluation of the T-50 would cover the period 2001-2014 and that initial production would not occur until about 2015, assuming all went well with the trials program.

The Tikhomirov Institute of Instrument Design developed the Irbis radar for the Su-35BM Flanker. There are unconfirmed reports that this radar is be the basis for the T-50 radar, and that the Su-35BM avionics is the development basis for the T-50s avionics suite. Little confirmed information is available on T-50 although it is known to be a fighter in the 20 ton (empty) and circa 30 ton (maximum take off weight) classes and to bear a general resemblance to the F-22. It is known that the prototypes and first production spiral will have the 117S (upgraded AL-31) turbofan engines built by the Russian company Saturn. This implies the obvious, the T-50 is based on the Sukhoi Design Bureaus experience with the Flanker series. As a result, the T-50 is a heavy fighter with a takeoff weight of over 30 metric tons and will have the same dimensions as the well-known Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker.

Why this is important to the Chinese program is that China has a close relationship with Sukhoi due to its Flanker fleet and license production of the type. Therefore, the Russian timeline and development path, which clearly leverages off Sukhois expertise in developing the numerous Flanker family, is likely to bear a close similarity to the Chinese development path for J-XX. As Russia has already discussed export of T-50 with India, it may well be seen by China as a potential backup for J-XX or it may provide technology and information feeding into that project. Whichever is true, J-XX will certainly utilise the expertise provided to the Chinese aviation industry by license building Flanker.

Therefore, it is certain that J-XX will contain considerable Russian design input, both indirectly from Chinese involvement in Flanker production, and directly from Sukhoi. *Unconfirmed reports state that - along with India - China has been offered joint development and production of T-50.*



A wind tunnel model resembling an F-22 was shown in a promotional video at the 2002 Zhuhai Airshow. A prototype thrust-vectoring nozzle was on display at the 2002 Zhuhai Airshow. It is not known if this was related to the J-XX project, but this is at least possible. Other hints as to its systems have been noticed. The J-XX will use the fly by wire system. This has been developed by SADI aboard its J-8IIACT technology demonstrator. Russian assistance in software support has been widely reported but is not confirmed, as the reports seem to track back to a single Russian source.

J-XX has finished its theoretical definition stage and is probably still in its program definition stage. If this is so, then various technologies are still being examined according to their ability to meet defined operational requirements. Therefore, China is probably well aware of the gaps in its capability, and is probably in the process of seeking from Russia.

*Speculation the J-XX may enter service as early as 2015 can confidently be dismissed. Chinas aviation base is not quite as developed as that of Russia and the very earliest that T-50 might achieve IOC is 2015.* Designing, testing and then producing a fighter of this type demands extensive and complex investment, technology integration and development across materials science, advanced avionics, high-performance jet engine, avionics, software and RCS technology. None of this is easy, and it has to be supported by very advanced computer-aided design and computer-aided manufacture (CAD/CAM) processes, the whole then coordinated through highly sophisticated project management techniques. Very few countries possess such capabilities and developing them is the work of a generation. It is scarcely credible that China could develop this capability at the first attempt, and do so in the same time as the more experienced Russian industry. 
Variants

In early 2009 the head of the PLA(N), Admiral Wu Shengli stated that the PLA(N) was interested in supercruise capable fighter to operate from large combat surface ships. This probably flags PLA(N) interest in a carrier-based variant of J-XX as no other suitable supercruise capable fighter is known to under development in China. Chinese media also suggests that a two-seat attack version is possible, perhaps as a replacement for the F-7 Flounder.

The actual nature of J-XX is far less relevant than what the project to develop such an aircraft says about the Chinese attitudes. The most important thing about J-XX is that is serves notice: China aims to be a major player in aviation development and to build the industrial base of a great power. Irrespective of the success of J-XX or its nature, *in designing and building such an aircraft China will equal the European powers in aviation industry capability, as they have to combine to produce fighters of this nature. China will not quite have reached Russia with J-XX, but she will be very close.*

That marks a milestone of very great significance.

J-XX The PLAAF&rsquo;s Plans for a Stealthy Fifth Generation Fighter


----------



## IceCold

PAFAce said:


> What?! PAK-FA in Indian skies by 2015? And you have "Senior Member" written under your name!



If only you have read my post a bit more carefully rather spending your time building up this rant of yours you would have realized that i clearly wrote the line *if we take it as an exaggeration *meaning that i dont buy the argument of 2015 either but what i buy is the fact as mentioned in one of my reply to meanbird that sooner or latter it would be in the Indian skies for which we dont have a counter too as we didnt even started thinking for a counter yet alone make one. India has started a joint venture with the Russians now and they are expecting by 2020, do you think that we can manage to counter it up in just days? And if you think that by then there will be something called the J-xx, then as suggested by meanbird and i fully agree with him, you are not living in fools paradise but in another dimension. First Chinese aviation industry has not reached the same level as that of their Russian counterparts which is why China still uses a russian powerplant in their main workhorse and so is Pakistan in JF-17 and even if china does develop Jxx by that time which i doubt, there is no guarantee that China would agree to sell such a vital technology to Pakistan just because it agreed to sell J-10 something which didnt impress Pakistan to begin with. So what countermeasures are you babbling about only in your wet dreams maybe but not otherwise. The fact is no country in the world is willing to sell Pakistan a damn thing because first we are a muslim country and second we are beggars, we will be lucky enough if we get the F-16s without interruption.




> I doubt you deserve that. Enjoy the fanboys, because, really, that's all you deserve.
> 
> PS: I wouldn't have taken such a tone to your post had it not been for your lack of respect for anyone who counters you.



Like i give a hoot about it. By the way why is your back burning?I dont see anything disrespectful in my post but only a reply to a sarcastic comment. You give respect to gain one and not the other way round. Moreover If you consider my post so disrespectful why bother replying in the first place, i didnt ask for you reply nor am i interested in debating with a moron like you. Consider this as a last reply. 

Goodday and enjoy the la la land you are living in after all its the Pakistanis living in Pakistan that will suffer the brunt and not some canadian Pakistani wanna be.


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## araz

PAFAce said:


> What?! PAK-FA in Indian skies by 2015? And you have "Senior Member" written under your name!
> 
> Even the Indian Air Force Chief of Air Staff does not expect operational PAK-FA/FGFA well into the next decade (i.e., 2020+). By 2015, the IAF won't even have all the MMRCAs flying in their sky, induction for that begins 2014 at the earliest. By 2015, Russia will be lucky to have an LRIP model for testing and V&V. India will be lucky if their pilots get a taste of one of the IOC aircraft by 2017.
> Source: _NOT_ my intuition, which is obviously not as well developed as yours, but Aviation Week, probably the most reliable aviation magazine around.
> 
> That gives us what, a mere decade to develop countermeasures? Hmm, I wonder how we will ever squeeze it in!
> 
> 
> I doubt you deserve that. Enjoy the fanboys, because, really, that's all you deserve.
> 
> PS: I wouldn't have taken such a tone to your post had it not been for your lack of respect for anyone who counters you.
> 
> 
> Now that's an intelligent answer. But, what source claims the J-XX is ahead? I haven't come across it.



Come on Brothers settle down. No need to get into an argument!! lets carry on this debate like the brothers that we are!!
Regarding pakfa, i doubt that the Indians will be getting it in 2015. I agree with PAF ace that the timeline is more likely to be 2020-25. The MRCA induction would have just started in 2014(based on an order in 2011__12) I dont think India would be in any position to add another fighter in its inventry.
i have a funny feeling that the fifth generation saga will not last very long. We have seen how there have been instances where even conventional radars have picked up these fighters. the moment a new technology comes on which can locate these planes they will loose their luster faster than the old two penny. As such i wonder if the answer is really to skip it altogether and move onto drones and pilot less planes . 
In the Indo Pak scenario we will be looking at a conventional fight till 2025.I suspect that we will only have a few squadrons of quality planes(late 4th or 5th gen)and the rest will be more or less our urrent inventry slightly upgraded. it is also interesting that the EU is not trying to put out anything to counter the F35and 22. Is it because they feel the same or they really dont have any thing to offer.They ar einstead looking at buying F35and f22.
The real problem is in 2010-13 for PAF where if we dont get F16s we will have a huge hiatus with not enought thunders and no J10. I dont know the answer there but i suspect PAF has discussed the eventuality(Ex ACM said F16s if they come are a bonus) and have a plan up ther sleeves, but the problem is financing this in light of our current financial crisis. 
I suspect we can go for M2Ks , but even that will not arrive till 2012-13. If we do we will have no problems till 2020, and we can have time to induct FC20 and look at another plane for( late 4th gen or 5th gen) qualitative edge. Money will however remain an issue
waSalam
Araz


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## PAFAce

> Originally Posted by *araz*
> Come on Brothers settle down. No need to get into an argument!! lets carry on this debate like the brothers that we are!!


I'm sorry, araz, for losing my cool. I broke the most important rule of web-forums, never, ever, disagree with an ignoramus.

As for what you've written, right on the money with the PAK-FA and MMRCA situation. Though, I disagree that 5th Gen AC will die out. See, Stealth is just a part of next-gen aircraft (an important part, but a part nonetheless); other next-gen features; such as enhanced avionics, net-centric capabilites, supercruise, next-gen weapons, ECM, EO/IR sensors, radars, etc. are all here to stay. Also, stealth tech will mature, so don't count it out just because some radars were able to detect it. Most of these radars were particularly looking for the next-gen aircraft in simulated and controlled environments. It's much more difficult to detect them when you don't know when or where they will come from, and how many.

Assuming the worst case scenario in the PAF-IAF situation, i.e., we have no F-16 B/52s and a squadron or two of FC-20s, whereas India may have a squadron or two of MMRCA in addition to Su-30MKI, the gap will _not_ be much larger than it is today. PAF will not allow the situation to deteriorate further, so this talk of India inducting the PAK-FA while we still have the same arsenal as today is not very realistic. Remember, Pakistan is closer to getting the FC-20s and F-16s than India is to getting their FGFA. As for J-XX, that is definitely a real project as admitted by Western media sources, but Pakistan should not currently invest much hope in that. In short, PAF will not reveal Plan B to us, not until it is necessary, and right now it seems Plan A is working just fine (not for the alarmists, but for us normals). It is foolish to let the enemy know what you intend to do in any situation, particularly a disadvantaged one.


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## araz

PAFAce said:


> I won't even bother replying to the first half of your post, its pointless because you've clearly revealed you know just about nothing about the international aerospace industry. Comparing engine design to airframe design capability is so childish, I can't even explain it to you without stooping to your level of intelligence. Secondly, you really don't know much about how the Chinese or the PAF operates either, quite evidently.
> 
> As for the second half, oh, someone is getting personal. The quality of this particular creature is revealed. What do you know about me to claim I am not a Pakistani? You just wanted to low-blow me, and I bet you feel proud of that. I could very well report you for it, but what's the point, you'll just throw another tantrum. And you wondered why people here won't respect you. Just read what you wrote one more time, or if you have trouble, get someone else to read it and then critique it. They'll tell you what I'll tell you, you're a worthless piece of ...
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, araz, for losing my cool. I broke the most important rule of web-forums, never, ever, disagree with an ignoramus.
> 
> As for what you've written, right on the money with the PAK-FA and MMRCA situation. Though, I disagree that 5th Gen AC will die out. See, Stealth is just a part of next-gen aircraft (an important part, but a part nonetheless); other next-gen features; such as enhanced avionics, net-centric capabilites, supercruise, next-gen weapons, ECM, EO/IR sensors, radars, etc. are all here to stay. Also, stealth tech will mature, so don't count it out just because some radars were able to detect it. Most of these radars were particularly looking for the next-gen aircraft in simulated and controlled environments. It's much more difficult to detect them when you don't know when or where they will come from, and how many.
> 
> Assuming the worst case scenario in the PAF-IAF situation, i.e., we have no F-16 B/52s and a squadron or two of FC-20s, whereas India may have a squadron or two of MMRCA in addition to Su-30MKI, the gap will _not_ be much larger than it is today. PAF will not allow the situation to deteriorate further, so this talk of India inducting the PAK-FA while we still have the same arsenal as today is not very realistic. Remember, Pakistan is closer to getting the FC-20s and F-16s than India is to getting their FGFA. As for J-XX, that is definitely a real project as admitted by Western media sources, but Pakistan should not currently invest much hope in that. In short, PAF will not reveal Plan B to us, not until it is necessary, and right now it seems Plan A is working just fine (not for the alarmists, but for us normals). It is foolish to let the enemy know what you intend to do in any situation, particularly a disadvantaged one.



PAF ace 
My friend this is what I meant. Technological advancements aside the human in the aircraft is the biggest impediment to making the fighter perform better. Plus they are expensive to train and only last 20-30yrs at best. I think in many ways 5th generation is a tech demonstrator for things to come. I am still intrigued by how EU has letitself fall behind quite intentionlly in the race to get 5th gen fighters. However they are all going great guns for UAVs. It seems that they too foresee it as a temporary measure and therefore not worth persuing. 
In PAfs scenario instead of going after 5th gen, I would concentrate on a very small cheap yet strong UCAV carrying 1-2 SRAAM/MRAAms. Imagine your sky full of a hundred or so UCAVS with no radars but getting updates from a plane flying 150-200KMs behind. Small and lethal.
What do you think
Araz


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## IceCold

araz said:


> PAF ace
> My friend this is what I meant. Technological advancements aside the human in the aircraft is the biggest impediment to making the fighter perform better. Plus they are expensive to train and only last 20-30yrs at best. I think in many ways 5th generation is a tech demonstrator for things to come. I am still intrigued by how EU has letitself fall behind quite intentionlly in the race to get 5th gen fighters. However they are all going great guns for UAVs. It seems that they too foresee it as a temporary measure and therefore not worth persuing.
> In PAfs scenario instead of going after 5th gen, I would concentrate on a very small cheap yet strong UCAV carrying 1-2 SRAAM/MRAAms. Imagine your sky full of a hundred or so UCAVS with no radars but getting updates from a plane flying 150-200KMs behind. Small and lethal.
> What do you think
> Araz



Sir if the 5th generation was just a tech demonstrater, why do you think US is spending billions in research. Moreover your argument about why EU is left behind the 5th generation race, well sir its not valid, the reason is that most of the EU countries are partners in the JSF project (UK, Germany......) so why reinvent the wheel when it already exists. Russia has started developing its own 5th generation fighter jet with India as partner and certainly China too as suggested by many have entered into developing its own version of a 5th generation figther jet.


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## PAFAce

araz said:


> PAF ace
> My friend this is what I meant. Technological advancements aside the human in the aircraft is the biggest impediment to making the fighter perform better. Plus they are expensive to train and only last 20-30yrs at best. I think in many ways 5th generation is a tech demonstrator for things to come. I am still intrigued by how EU has letitself fall behind quite intentionlly in the race to get 5th gen fighters. However they are all going great guns for UAVs. It seems that they too foresee it as a temporary measure and therefore not worth persuing.
> In PAfs scenario instead of going after 5th gen, I would concentrate on a very small cheap yet strong UCAV carrying 1-2 SRAAM/MRAAms. Imagine your sky full of a hundred or so UCAVS with no radars but getting updates from a plane flying 150-200KMs behind. Small and lethal.
> What do you think
> Araz


Yep, UAS are definitely the future, I couldn't agree with you more. It's not just the Europeans, even the Americans are spending lots of their R&D resources (this includes valuable finances and invaluable expertise) on UAS development. Almost half of all aviation/space system media nowadays is covered with featured reports on UAV/UCAV systems and the Robotics industry. The benefits of these, as you explained, are quite obvious. As one US Navy Chief Petty Officer put it When a robot dies, you dont have to write a letter to its mother. That's profound, in that it would save lives. People would go to war like they go to office jobs, drive to the pilot-station, fly the aircraft, and drive home at night to be with the family. Of course, that's an exaggerated view, but that's possible with UAS. 

However, we must not get carried away. The fights of the near future will still (largely) be between manned aircraft, and next-gen tech gives you an unfair advantage over your adversary. Europe did not _permit itself to fall behind_, but rather fell behind purely due to their threat perception. In Europe, it is much more difficult for governments to justify spending billions on technology that won't serve any useful purpose for almost 50 years. In other words, there is a reason why there is no European DARPA. The same can be said about the respective Space programs of Europe and the USA.

Like I said, in any hypothetical future war with a theoretically well-matched enemy (say, Russia or China), the American pilots will still have an unfair leg-up on their enemies. And that, for the Americans, justifies the push into fifth-generation.

Lastly, you may consider the F-117 a tech demonstrator, even the B-2 or the SR-71, but the F-22 is very much an operationally inclined aircraft. It was built to be that way, from the day the program started 20 years ago. Of course, since it _is_ so new, it has had problems that were unprecedented. Therefore, we _will_ learn from it, but that's not its primary goal. It's primary goal is to destroy hi-tech enemy forces.


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## SBD-3

PAFAce said:


> Yep, UAS are definitely the future, I couldn't agree with you more. It's not just the Europeans, even the Americans are spending lots of their R&D resources (this includes valuable finances and invaluable expertise) on UAS development. Almost half of all aviation/space system media nowadays is covered with featured reports on UAV/UCAV systems and the Robotics industry. The benefits of these, as you explained, are quite obvious. As one US Navy Chief Petty Officer put it When a robot dies, you dont have to write a letter to its mother. That's profound, in that it would save lives. People would go to war like they go to office jobs, drive to the pilot-station, fly the aircraft, and drive home at night to be with the family. Of course, that's an exaggerated view, but that's possible with UAS.
> 
> However, we must not get carried away. The fights of the near future will still (largely) be between manned aircraft, and next-gen tech gives you an unfair advantage over your adversary. Europe did not _permit itself to fall behind_, but rather fell behind purely due to their threat perception. In Europe, it is much more difficult for governments to justify spending billions on technology that won't serve any useful purpose for almost 50 years. In other words, there is a reason why there is no European DARPA. The same can be said about the respective Space programs of Europe and the USA.
> 
> Like I said, in any hypothetical future war with a theoretically well-matched enemy (say, Russia or China), the American pilots will still have an unfair leg-up on their enemies. And that, for the Americans, justifies the push into fifth-generation.
> 
> Lastly, you may consider the F-117 a tech demonstrator, even the B-2 or the SR-71, but the F-22 is very much an operationally inclined aircraft. It was built to be that way, from the day the program started 20 years ago. Of course, since it _is_ so new, it has had problems that were unprecedented. Therefore, we _will_ learn from it, but that's not its primary goal. It's primary goal is to destroy hi-tech enemy forces.



one thing that sparks me is that why US is passive or not owrking on 6th gen fighters i mean even if not now but when PAK-FA and JXX will take to skies They will pose a serious threat to US JSFs and Raptors as well so either conclusion is US has underestimated Chinese and Russians or it thinks that F-22 will never be matched by any other country in coming ages


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## gambit

hasnain0099 said:


> one thing that sparks me is that* why US is passive or not owrking on 6th gen fighters* i mean even if not now but when PAK-FA and JXX will take to skies They will pose a serious threat to US JSFs and Raptors as well so either conclusion is US has underestimated Chinese and Russians or it thinks that F-22 will never be matched by any other country in coming ages


What make you believe we are not? Just because you do not see such news in print or in the rumor mills?

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## Mercenary

hasnain0099 said:


> one thing that sparks me is that why US is passive or not owrking on 6th gen fighters i mean even if not now but when PAK-FA and JXX will take to skies They will pose a serious threat to US JSFs and Raptors as well so either conclusion is US has underestimated Chinese and Russians or it thinks that F-22 will never be matched by any other country in coming ages



It has no need to work on a 6th generation aircraft.

It would if the Cold War was still going on but its not.

USA is embroiled in an insurgency wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and needs to invest more on UAV rather than F-22 which have not flown a single combat mission over Iraq and Afghanistan.

USA is ordering equipment to fight the war it is currently engaged in and not the one it might in the future against Russia or China.


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## EagleEyes

Discuss without the rants. Topic cleared, and members noticed.


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## pakpower

> You know what i am going to report both you and PAFace for your bullshit ranting and bullying other members.



Go report it whatever you want, but I must tell you one thing you dont give respect to others I dont know why you do that but it's a fact you only care for yourself which is not good for your future.


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## SBD-3

gambit said:


> What make you believe we are not? Just because you do not see such news in print or in the rumor mills?


with MANTA scrapped and here s something I got


> Boeing is touting an even newer version of its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet that, paired with an advanced* sixth-generation fighter in the works at the company, would give customers what Boeing deems a better package of capabilities than Lockheed Martin's combination of the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.*
> 
> The idea is that customers could buy 4.5 generation Super Hornets (perhaps 4.75 generation with the planned extra forward stealth and extra range of Block 3 aircraft) and then switch to a new, sixth generation faster than if they bought the fifth generation Joint Strike Fighter. *To be available circa 2024, the sixth generation aircraft would feature a combat radius of more than 1,000 miles and stealth against a much wider spectrum of radars.*
> 
> "The [Navy] C-version of the F-35 doesn't buy you a lot that the Super Hornet doesn't provide," says Bob Gower, Boeing's vice president for F/A-18 and EA-18G programs. "Our strategy is to create a compelling reason for the services to go to the next [sixth] generation platform. How do you bridge F/A-18E/F to get us there? We want to convince customers to stay with [Super Hornet] a few years longer -- by adding advanced capabilities and lowering price -- so that they can get to the sixth generation faster. If you go to JSF first, it's going to be a long time."
> 
> Another part of Boeing's argument is that the "Navy is comfortable with the Super Hornet against the highest [enemy] threat through 2024, with the [improved] capabilities we have in the flight plan," Gower says. "The ability to counter the threat gets you to about the point that [Boeing's] sixth generation is available."
> 
> It's part of Boeing's counterattack on Lockheed Martin's claim that the decreasing price of the F-22, which is now at $140 million each, will make it so attractive that Australia may reconsider its buy -- already being paid for -- of 24 two-seat F/A-18F Super Hornets. Until Australia's recent change in government, a number of U.S. officials said the government was considering a second lot of 24 Super Hornets and a six-plane squadron of EA-18G Growlers.
> 
> Boeing makes the argument that a sliding in-service date for the JSF is worrying both the Australians and the U.S. military.
> 
> "The U.S. Air Force and Navy are now talking a lot more about where they need to go with sixth generation to get beyond JSF," Gower says. "It could be unmanned, but I think you will see a combination of missions -- some manned, some unmanned."
> 
> For Boeing, the real discriminators are going to be extended range (1,000-1,500 miles), a small radar signature against low-frequency radars, expanded awareness through connections with the network, and the ability to carry a number of bombs internally.



????????????????????????????????????????

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## PAFAce

gambit said:


> What make you believe we are not? Just because you do not see such news in print or in the rumor mills?


Yes, *gambit*, there is no way to know. But tell me, as an engineer, you know you can't engineer something without requirements. Where are the requirements going to come from, to merit a so-called sixth-generation capability?

Now, I am sure DARPA has something up its sleeve, I have always been a huge fan of the DARPA concept, but even they work on systems that may have some use 50 years down the road.

_Unless_, sixth-gen means space-wars or star-wars (Reagan's dream), where the engines will be non-air breathing/air-breathing hybrids and the primary area of focus will be the upper earth atmosphere or lower space. That's something the US is already working towards (DARPA's got a project listed on their website, an unmanned upper atmosphere static aircraft), so it's not really that secretive.

*hasnain0099*, thanks for that article, but what they've described there hardly merits an entire next-gen credibility. That's more like 5.5th-gen if anything, with everything from the fifth-gen, but better. But, who am I to argue with a company like Boeing?


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## gambit

PAFAce said:


> Yes, *gambit*, there is no way to know. But tell me, as an engineer, you know you can't engineer something without requirements. *Where are the requirements going to come from, to merit a so-called sixth-generation capability*?


The next generation of 'stealth' will be *ACTIVE* instead of passive radar effects.

There are four main methods of affecting the behavior of a radar signal on a body, not merely a surface, we are past that, but on a body, which is a compilation of surfaces and is irregular. People should not confuse symmetry with regularity. The human face is symmetrical but *NOT* uniform. The nose, depressions for the eyes, lips and the hollows of the cheeks, all are irregular features. Same for an aircraft which is symmetrical but highly irregular in features.

The four methods are:

- Shaping
- Absorbers (RAM)
- Passive cancellation
- Active cancellation

We already are highly experienced with the first three items. The fourth -- active cancellation -- require the skin of the body to be absorbers *AND* emitters. Photolithography, the technology of semiconductor manufacturing that I am currently in right now, is ideal for creating transistors and capacitors on a panel. With active cancellation, we *WILL* make a claim of 'invisibility', or a drone will appear on radar as the giant B-52. This is not about carrying a transponder to pretend to be a B-52 but about absorbing radar signals and manipulating them. We will disappear off the scope at will no matter the distance we are from the seeking transmitter, even if the body is stationary and is only one meter away from the antenna.

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## PAFAce

gambit said:


> The next generation of 'stealth' will be *ACTIVE* instead of passive radar effects.
> 
> There are four main methods of affecting the behavior of a radar signal on a body, not merely a surface, we are past that, but on a body, which is a compilation of surfaces and is irregular. People should not confuse symmetry with regularity. The human face is symmetrical but *NOT* uniform. The nose, depressions for the eyes, lips and the hollows of the cheeks, all are irregular features. Same for an aircraft which is symmetrical but highly irregular in features.
> 
> The four methods are:
> 
> - Shaping
> - Absorbers (RAM)
> - Passive cancellation
> - Active cancellation
> 
> We already are highly experienced with the first three items. The fourth -- active cancellation -- require the skin of the body to be absorbers *AND* emitters. Photolithography, the technology of semiconductor manufacturing that I am currently in right now, is ideal for creating transistors and capacitors on a panel. With active cancellation, we *WILL* make a claim of 'invisibility', or a drone will appear on radar as the giant B-52. This is not about carrying a transponder to pretend to be a B-52 but about absorbing radar signals and manipulating them. We will disappear off the scope at will no matter the distance we are from the seeking transmitter, even if the body is stationary and is only one meter away from the antenna.



That's interesting. I am somewhat familiar with the techniques used to create semiconductor devices (at an undergrad level). However, what you're talking about is turning the entire aircraft into a giant emitter. Transistors are greatly affected by their surroundings, slight variations in temperature affect their performance. If you have transistors embedded in an aircraft, their performance will vary incredibly. That will probably require complex control, or maybe not. You never know what you're going to get, but I I have a feeling this active-stealth tech will require more than just an understanding og Electromagnetics. I have to get back to work, so I'll add more later.


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## gambit

PAFAce said:


> That's interesting. I am somewhat familiar with the techniques used to create semiconductor devices (at an undergrad level). However, what you're talking about is turning the entire aircraft into a giant emitter. Transistors are greatly affected by their surroundings, slight variations in temperature affect their performance. If you have transistors embedded in an aircraft, their performance will vary incredibly. That will probably require complex control, or maybe not. You never know what you're going to get, but I I have a feeling this active-stealth tech will require more than just an understanding og Electromagnetics. I have to get back to work, so I'll add more later.


We do not need to create nowhere as detailed as substrate circuits. Current absorbers can be made to be frequency selective, but they are static: Jaumann, Dallenbach, Salisbury and circuit analog.

Radar-absorbent material - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> A Jaumann absorber or Jaumann layer is a radar absorbent device. When first introduced in 1943, the Jaumann layer consisted of two equally-spaced reflective surfaces and a conductive ground plane. One can think of it as a generalized, multi-layered Salisbury screen as the principles are similar.


It the fourth -- circuit analog -- that interest us and the basic techniques for creating a dynamic absorber is already available...

Simple design of thin and wideband circuit analogue absorber


> A new and simple design for thin and broadband circuit analogue absorbers is presented. The proposed absorber is composed of a two-dimensional periodic array of multiple patches printed on a conductor-backed substrate, which exhibits the property of multiple resonances and provides a wide absorbing bandwidth. Measured results show that this simple absorber has a bandwidth of 76% for 10 dB RCS reduction and its thickness is only one-eighth free-space wavelength at the centre frequency.


The issue is mass manufacturing then how to control the panels on the aircraft. Conformal arrays are already in the works.

For the F-22 and F-35, each is already 'self-aware' of its own RCS with respect to the transmitting radar, meaning the aircraft knows its dimensions, detect the transmitting direction, call up its figures, calculate its own RCS in respect to that transmitter, and finally adjust its flight attitude to present the lowest possible RCS to that radar. All without conscious inputs from the pilot. For the future, the computational power required to create false RCS-es through these conformal arrays will be enormous because the aircraft is moving. Without sufficient native technological foundation, it is not possible to manufacture these next generation of aircrafts.


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## BATMAN

Mercenary said:


> It has no need to work on a 6th generation aircraft.
> 
> It would if the Cold War was still going on but its not.
> 
> USA is embroiled in an insurgency wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and needs to invest more on UAV rather than F-22 which have not flown a single combat mission over Iraq and Afghanistan.
> 
> USA is ordering equipment to fight the war it is currently engaged in and not the one it might in the future against Russia or China.



I believe it, because there are no known projects of 5th generation aircraft from Europe also.
Senate cannot approve any amount for a more advance jet than F-35 or F-22 while US cannot benifit from exisiting developments due ot financial reasons.

Only country which seems going after the 5th generation project is China.


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## gambit

BATMAN said:


> Senate cannot approve any amount for a more advance jet than F-35 or F-22 while *US cannot benifit from exisiting developments due ot financial reasons*.


How DARPA allocate research fundings is independent of the US Congress budgeting process. The unclassified DARPA budget is here...

DARPA | DARPA Budget

DARPA's research budget is anywhere between 3-4 bils. That is a pittance compared to how much those Saudi princes squandered their oil wealth.

Saudi Prince's Firm Loses $8.3B in 4Q - ABC News

The reason why DARPA in specific, and the US in general, is so successful at implementing seemingly esoteric research into working models is because of the diversity of the native US technology base. When I left avionics a decade ago and entered semiconductor manufacturing, it never entered my mind that semicon manufacturing techniques and technology could be applicable to aviation. Then one day a friend who remained in avionics called me up and asked a few questions regarding photo 'steppers'...

Stepper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> A stepper is a device used in the manufacture of integrated circuits (ICs) that is similar in operation to a slide projector or a photographic enlarger. Steppers are an essential part of the complex process, called photolithography, that *creates millions of microscopic circuit elements on the surface of tiny chips of silicon*. These chips form the heart of ICs such as computer processors, memory chips, and many other devices.


The absorber technique used in the F-117 contained ferrite particles in a composite material that can be either a liquid or an applied film. Those ferrite particles can be of different sizes to affect different freqs, but overall the particles are not uniform throughout the medium holding them. Turns out that these 'steppers' could be used for creating complex ferrite particle patterns that are necessary for *SELECTIVELY* trapping and absorbing radar signals. What 'could be' mean to the average person does not carry the same context for DARPA. On any circuit board are 'traces' for electrical pathways between components. Same for silicon substrate level in connecting microscopic components on a 'die' to make a CPU or a DRAM memory unit. So the idea, on paper at least, is to electrically connect these complex ferrite particle patterns to make them electrically active at will. This is several generations beyond common commmercial radome coatings that passes through transmissions. This is not science fiction and would not take any avionics engineer very long to connect the dots. May be DARPA found something else better by now. But this is DARPA's strength -- creativity. DARPA will fund the basic research, make enquiries among companies whose ordinary operations are related and applicable, and simply file those information away. All the while DARPA make regular check-ups in the industries on technology progress. So when there is a need for the idea, if it remains applicable by that time, DARPA will already have all the necessary basic data for the manufacturers to apply their skills.


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## araz

IceCold said:


> Sir if the 5th generation was just a tech demonstrater, why do you think US is spending billions in research. Moreover your argument about why EU is left behind the 5th generation race, well sir its not valid, the reason is that most of the EU countries are partners in the JSF project (UK, Germany......) so why reinvent the wheel when it already exists. Russia has started developing its own 5th generation fighter jet with India as partner and certainly China too as suggested by many have entered into developing its own version of a 5th generation figther jet.



Ice cold.
For every stage of development in fighters there have been comparable US and EU fighters. Why not 5th Generation? This is something that bugs me. If you think EU is just contributing, why have they not done so and reaped the harvest of American work? I am not saying i am right or wrong. Like any novice it is one of those things that bug you. If the answer is simply reinventing the wheel, then why rafale and EF and gripen? 
Do you see where I am coming from?
Araz


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## IceCold

araz said:


> Ice cold.
> For every stage of development in fighters there have been comparable US and EU fighters. Why not 5th Generation? This is something that bugs me. If you think EU is just contributing, why have they not done so and reaped the harvest of American work? I am not saying i am right or wrong. Like any novice it is one of those things that bug you. If the answer is simply reinventing the wheel, then why rafale and EF and gripen?
> Do you see where I am coming from?
> Araz



perhaps sir you have a point however keep this fact in mind also that EU is not just simply contributing, but they are fully involved in the project. I remember a year ago or maybe it was further back, UK threaten to withdraw from the JSF project because US was simply not giving them the source codes needed for them to modify the software of the plane as per their needs. Gripen well it uses most of the parts made in the US besides lets not forget the reason why gripen was made in the first place, it has nothing to do with 5th generation but a simple fact a plane that could take off and land from roads in sweden and french are simply not involved into the project of 5th generation so far so rafale makes sense but EF is more like replacing the aging fleet since imo not every single jet in the EU inventory can be replaced by the JSF so 4.5th generation fighters will still be flying besides EU does not faces the same level of threat the americans claim to face, the only threat to EU comes from Russia i suppose and i think EU will perhaps jump into the 5th category only after the russians get their hand on one and until that time they will remain engaged with the JSF.
In any case calling 5th generation a tech demonstrater just because EU for now is not fully involved and only collaborating with the americans would be an understatement. like some one suggested back F-117 can be called as a tech demonstrater but certainly not the F-22 or even the JSF.

My 2 paisas over the issue.


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## PAFAce

gambit said:


> How DARPA allocate research fundings is independent of the US Congress budgeting process. The unclassified DARPA budget is here...
> 
> DARPA | DARPA Budget
> 
> DARPA's research budget is anywhere between 3-4 bils. That is a pittance compared to how much those Saudi princes squandered their oil wealth.
> 
> Saudi Prince's Firm Loses $8.3B in 4Q - ABC News
> 
> The reason why DARPA in specific, and the US in general, is so successful at implementing seemingly esoteric research into working models is because of the diversity of the native US technology base. When I left avionics a decade ago and entered semiconductor manufacturing, it never entered my mind that semicon manufacturing techniques and technology could be applicable to aviation. Then one day a friend who remained in avionics called me up and asked a few questions regarding photo 'steppers'...


And I have always maintained that no country, not even the mighty Russia, can match the US in technology due to their quality and pace of R&D precisely due to organizations like DARPA and NASA and due to the great many fields in whichthe US maintains a significant edge. 

By the way, just curious, whose spearheading the semiconductor based active-stealth technology? One of the major manufacturers of semicon devices would have to involved (Intel, AMD, Actel, IBM, TI, etc.) which is it?

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## gambit

PAFAce said:


> And I have always maintained that no country, not even the mighty Russia, can match the US in technology due to their quality and pace of R&D precisely due to organizations like DARPA and NASA and due to the great many fields in whichthe US maintains a significant edge.


The Soviets had a 'brute force' approach to technological advancement...

Secret Cities


> On the eve of the Great Patriotic War the Soviet military-industrial complex created a number of new other towns and cities for weapons development and manufacturing. The creation of such "town-forming enterprises" accelerated during the War, as much of the Soviet military industrial infrastructure was relocated beyond the reach of Hitler's advancing armies.
> 
> In response to the immense challenge of the unfolding East-West arms race, Stalin decided to create dozens of centers of research and development excellence in the USSR. Some of these so-called "Naukograds" [Science Towns] were "Akademgorodok" [Academic Cities} devoted to basic research. Others were secret cities which were to provide the technical foundation for Soviet military technology - sputniks, long-range missiles, thermonuclear warheads of extreme yield. Among the work performed in such places were chemical, biological and nuclear weapons research and manufacturing, enrichment of plutonium, space research, and military intelligence work.





PAFAce said:


> By the way, just curious, *whose spearheading the semiconductor based active-stealth technology?* One of the major manufacturers of semicon devices would have to involved (Intel, AMD, Actel, IBM, TI, etc.) which is it?


As far as I personally know? No one company is leading. I am guessing that this is just one of many possibilities being explored at this time. Current knowledge of absorber materials indicate that with increasing oblique angle far less energy is absorbed. Plus decreasing material thickness decreases bandwidth absorbed. Increasing material thickness would return those bandwidth losses but would increase weight and maintenance requirements, but that would still leave the incidence angle versus absorbed energy problem. So increasing material thickness is not an option for an aircraft and that would leave semicon techniques in contention as we work in very small scale.

Metamaterials, meaning man-made materials that have properties that does not exist in nature, is under serious consideration. Photolithography technology to etch patterns for these new materials seems to be the best avenue so far, but that is just my guess. Hydroflouric acid (HF) is toxic and is used daily for our silicon wafers. I doubt that HF would be useful to clean composite materials in order for us to lay in patterns for the metamaterials. The HF would probably destroy the panel. I can already guess at least ten major problems right off the top. But this is how DARPA works, let the industries who are already experts evaluate the possibilities and create solutions, then shelf the information away until needed. My parent company is Intel and we donate plenty of equipments to universities. Many of these university labs are ISO certified. If several labs managed to correlate the new technology among themselves, then the next logical step is to let the manufacturing facilities figure out how to mass produce.

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## Arsalan

> Originally Posted by *araz *
> Ice cold.
> For every stage of development in fighters there have been comparable US and EU fighters. Why not 5th Generation? This is something that bugs me. If you think EU is just contributing, why have they not done so and reaped the harvest of American work? I am not saying i am right or wrong. Like any novice it is one of those things that bug you. If the answer is simply reinventing the wheel, then why rafale and EF and gripen?
> Do you see where I am coming from?
> Araz



sir cannt it be a case of allainace on a much large scale then we expect. i mean you can not see any american project on any other true 4.5 generation plane. with the F18 and all getting older they US may require to replace this fleet of F16, F 18 and all that. now considering the ost of F22 and the cost of F35 for its value, i dont hink that all of the existing fleet will be replace by merely these two projects!
in thats case the US will be accquiring a 4.5 generation plane and that amy come from EU. i know it sounds a bit unrealistic to say US importing war machines but then four or five decades back no on would have thought of the strong relation that exist between US and Japan or Us and germany! !
is there any chance of a situation where we can see the F35 becomming the power punch in all of europe and the EF, rafale and gripens making the it to US market as a fill-in for maintaining good number of aircrafts!!

i admit that the post seems a bit too childish for one's liking but still we have seen the world changing its diplomacy at a rapid pace, havent we??
looking forward to your thoughts!

regards!


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## araz

arsalanaslam123 said:


> sir cannt it be a case of allainace on a much large scale then we expect. i mean you can not see any american project on any other true 4.5 generation plane. with the F18 and all getting older they US may require to replace this fleet of F16, F 18 and all that. now considering the ost of F22 and the cost of F35 for its value, i dont hink that all of the existing fleet will be replace by merely these two projects!
> in thats case the US will be accquiring a 4.5 generation plane and that amy come from EU. i know it sounds a bit unrealistic to say US importing war machines but then four or five decades back no on would have thought of the strong relation that exist between US and Japan or Us and germany! !
> is there any chance of a situation where we can see the F35 becomming the power punch in all of europe and the EF, rafale and gripens making the it to US market as a fill-in for maintaining good number of aircrafts!!
> 
> i admit that the post seems a bit too childish for one's liking but still we have seen the world changing its diplomacy at a rapid pace, havent we??
> looking forward to your thoughts!
> 
> regards!


Ice cold and Arsalan
In its history America has not bought any arms from any other nation . Regarding the JSF and their alleged alliance with EU they have been at loggerheads with EU with transfer of sensitive technology to EU so much so that a few of the countries have threatened to cancel their orders. To date the matter remains unresolved to the best of my knowledge(feel free to let me know if the matter is otherwise)
American philosophy and its wars are propagated to keep its cartel of armaments industries active and happy. I think it is against its basic philosophy to compromise it by buying arms from elsewhere. As to why it does not have 4.75 gen fighters, it can afford to keep upgrading its current inventory and still keep ahead of its competition.So we keep seeing reinventions of later blocks of f15, 16, and 18s. I think they will produce a lot of f35s but not enough F22s, as the price is not worth the effort. So where will all the knowledge go? It will be integrated into some old planes to upgrade them and sell them on and the rest goes into the 6th generation research.
So guys there you have it. These are my thoughts and the reasons behind it.
Araz

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Except for Berretta.

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## niaz

araz said:


> Ice cold and Arsalan
> In its history America has not bought any arms from any other nation . Regarding the JSF and their alleged alliance with EU they have been at loggerheads with EU with transfer of sensitive technology to EU so much so that a few of the countries have threatened to cancel their orders. To date the matter remains unresolved to the best of my knowledge(feel free to let me know if the matter is otherwise)
> American philosophy and its wars are propagated to keep its cartel of armaments industries active and happy. I think it is against its basic philosophy to compromise it by buying arms from elsewhere. As to why it does not have 4.75 gen fighters, it can afford to keep upgrading its current inventory and still keep ahead of its competition.So we keep seeing reinventions of later blocks of f15, 16, and 18s. I think they will produce a lot of f35s but not enough F22s, as the price is not worth the effort. So where will all the knowledge go? It will be integrated into some old planes to upgrade them and sell them on and the rest goes into the 6th generation research.
> So guys there you have it. These are my thoughts and the reasons behind it.
> Araz



Hon Araz, 

British Harrier was purchased by the US for use with the Marine Corps. Later US improved it to AV-8B but the first AV-8As that entered service with US Marines in the early 70&#8217;s were totally British.

After the success of Israeli battlefield UAV's had proven a great success in destroying Syrian missile sites in 1982: US Navy asked Israel Aircraft Industries to submit a proposal for battlefield UAV in 1984. This was later produced in the US with active Israeli participation.

US also buys weapons from abroad, albeit very rarely.

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## Arsalan

niaz said:


> Hon Araz,
> 
> British Harrier was purchased by the US for use with the Marine Corps. Later US improved it to AV-8B but the first AV-8As that entered service with US Marines in the early 70s were totally British.
> 
> After the success of Israeli battlefield UAV's had proven a great success in destroying Syrian missile sites in 1982: US Navy asked Israel Aircraft Industries to submit a proposal for battlefield UAV in 1984. This was later produced in the US with active Israeli participation.
> 
> US also buys weapons from abroad, albeit very rarely.



yes it may well be true that US had some foreign equipment in there military service but the thig is that there ratio to there own systems is almost negligiable! considering this and the fact that US have gone far ahead of the world in all the department, it seems unlikely that US will go for a foreign project as big as a 4.5 generation fighter plane. but then what are there choices?? i agree with the point that F35 will be procured in larger amount but it wont ever be enough to repace the entire fleet of 4th generation planes they have, moreover i think they will soon realize that the F35 is also a bit too expensive relative to the value it offers. keeping all this stuff in mind that they will focus on the reported upgradation plan for there F18 fleet, in addition to this may accquire a fet F15 silent eagles and then complement them with F35 and F22!
the option of going for EU 4.5 or maybe 4.75 planes would have been a good option rather then investing on F18 but it donot think it will be going with the US approach.
so to conclude that we may see a decade or so of EU relaiance on US for high tech planes and having nothing to offer in return (except dollars ofcourse )

regards!


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## Hunter911

Carefully leaked secret! Pakistan Air Force is to tame it?Why China does not sell it in North Korea?
Who knows the exact answer?


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## applesauce

Hunter911 said:


> Carefully leaked secret! Pakistan Air Force is to tame it?Why China does not sell it in North Korea?
> Who knows the exact answer?



what are you trying to say??? i cant quite understand, as for korea..... they cant afford food let alone a decent jet fighter


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## Hunter911

Recently, some media to the Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman asked whether the Government of China to North Korea once again rejected the sale of J-10.
Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman's reply to some vague:There is no such news to hear.
North Korea did not qualify for J-10, North Koreas behavior is like a replica of Vietnam.


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## mean_bird

arsalanaslam123 said:


> *it seems unlikely that US will go for a foreign project as big as a 4.5 generation fighter plane.*




The next gen aircraft (X35?) is being co-developed with Germany. Even the lead test pilot is a german.


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## Hunter911

This is the logic of Chinese engineers, sir.

jf-17would defeated f-16c/d.I'm sure.


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## Hunter911

I agree with your view .But it has been painted the body with material to absorb radar waves! Believe it or not as you like .One japanese Air Force F-2 fighter aircraft had been locked by J-10 with it's radar .


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## Arsalan

mean_bird said:


> The next gen aircraft (X35?) is being co-developed with Germany. Even the lead test pilot is a german.



well it is a surprisw package if true. 
i have not been able to find anything relevant to any such programme, it will surely be helpfull if you can post some report or linl regarding this news as it will somewhat conclude the whole discussion!!
waiting for yor response!

regards!


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## mean_bird

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well it is a surprisw package if true.
> i have not been able to find anything relevant to any such programme, it will surely be helpfull if you can post some report or linl regarding this news as it will somewhat conclude the whole discussion!!
> waiting for yor response!
> 
> regards!




Here you go -- Its the X31

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell-MBB_X-31


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> yes it may well be true that US had some foreign equipment in there military service but the thig is that there ratio to there own systems is almost negligiable! considering this and the fact that US have gone far ahead of the world in all the department, it seems unlikely that US will go for a foreign project as big as a 4.5 generation fighter plane. but then what are there choices?? i agree with the point that F35 will be procured in larger amount but it wont ever be enough to repace the entire fleet of 4th generation planes they have, moreover i think they will soon realize that the F35 is also a bit too expensive relative to the value it offers. keeping all this stuff in mind that they will focus on the reported upgradation plan for there F18 fleet, in addition to this may accquire a fet F15 silent eagles and then complement them with F35 and F22!
> the option of going for EU 4.5 or maybe 4.75 planes would have been a good option rather then investing on F18 but it donot think it will be going with the US approach.
> so to conclude that we may see a decade or so of EU relaiance on US for high tech planes and having nothing to offer in return (except dollars ofcourse )
> 
> regards!





The United States Air Forces Chief of Staff, General Schwartz, testified to the House Armed Services Committee that the Air Force is willing to sacrifice their current fleet of A-10, F-15 and F-16 aircraft to free up funds to expedite delivery of the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter. The JSF will be delivered in various configurations for the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps to replace F-16, F/A-18 and AV-8B aircraft.

General Schwartz stated that the Air Force wanted to begin moving the JSF to its maximum production rate of 110 a year as soon as possible. Secretary of Defense Gates has proposed ending F-22 production and speeding the JSF up to make up for the end of the high end, stealthy aircraft. Schwartz proposed retiring two hundred and fifty older aircraft to free money up to purchase the JSF.

The JSF is at the stage where it is transitioning from development to production and that is a time in a program that is fraught with difficulties. If there are issues that were not discovered in testing that can delay the onset of full production, or if issues arise in the production line that too can increase schedule and cost.

If these kind of things do happen then the USAF could be caught with a smaller, less capable force for a time as the older aircraft are retired and the JSF fighters are not delivered. There will also be a gap where you do not have the right mix of crew which might require more investment in training. The F-15 especially is starting to have problems due to its age and certainly a more rapid procurement of the JSF would solve those problems.

Another tack might be to continue production of the F-22 while retiring the aircraft. That line is hot and stable and while the F-22 is certainly more expensive then the F-35 a decent number could be bought for the kind of money the Air Force thinks it will save with the retirements. It is obvious that this will be a major discussion as the 2010 budget is developed.
Air Force Willing To Sacrifice Today's Force For JSF Future | BNET Government Blog | BNET


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## Arsalan

mean_bird said:


> Here you go -- Its the X31




well thanks for the link 
but
it is not a next generation fighter programme, its only a thrust vetoring technology demonstrator. 
i searched for some X35 programme so that why i got confused, the X31 is a lost story now!

regards!


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## mean_bird

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well thanks for the link
> but
> it is not a next generation fighter programme, its only a thrust vetoring technology demonstrator.
> i searched for some X35 programme so that why i got confused, the X31 is a lost story now!
> 
> regards!



The two points to which I responded with this were

1. Its the next generation after F-22. Even the video mentions that its the next generation after F-22. Yes it is just an experimental plane that will not go into production but the technologies developed will--whether on a manned or an unmanned aircraft. 

Btw, its more than just TV tech. The avionics and FBW would be raised to a whole new level.

2. Its a cooperation between USA and Germany.


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## gambit

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well thanks for the link
> but
> it is not a next generation fighter programme, its only a thrust vetoring technology demonstrator.
> i searched for some X35 programme so that why i got confused, the X31 is a lost story now!
> 
> regards!


Here is the misconception about the X-planes. They are *NOT* intended to establish any foundation for any 'next generation' of aircraft. What the X-planes are about is to take a certain idea and/or technology and design an aircraft around it. 

Bell X-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> On 16 March 1945, the United States Army Air Forces' Flight Test Division and the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (NACA) (now NASA) contracted Bell Aircraft to build three XS-1 (for "Experimental, Supersonic", later X-1) aircraft *to obtain flight data* on conditions in the transonic speed range.[1] The XS-1 was the first high-speed aircraft built purely for aviation research purposes and was never intended for production.


The highlighted is what any X-plane is supposed to do -- obtain data -- and to do it with minimum influences from other factors. So if the intention is to obtain data on subsonic to transonic to supersonic regimes, is there a need to obtain data on maneuverability? Not really, so the aircraft would be designed to have just enough maneuverability to make it flight capable. The Bell X-1 probably would not last in a dogfight against the WW I Sopwith Camel.

Without a dedicated program like the X-planes, it is not possible to develop any 'generation' of aircraft, be it an airliner to a fighter. The data collected from one X-plane about supersonic maneuverability would be applied against the data about materials possibly from another X-plane and the result would be a 'next generation' of fighter whose skin could withstand high temperature. Avionics would be tougher to demonstrate since digital data could be better simulated than analog but there would be an X-plane either designed for that purpose or a current design would be modified to demonstrate the idea or technology, like the F-16XL or the AFTI F-16, both qualified to be X-planes in their own right.


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## SBD-3

gambit said:


> Avionics would be tougher to demonstrate since digital data could be better simulated than analog but there would be an X-plane either designed for that purpose or a current design would be modified to demonstrate the idea or technology, like the F-16XL or the AFTI F-16, both qualified to be X-planes in their own right.



But sir F-16 XL was produced in direct competition to Super hornet (or Super Eagle don't exactly remember most likely i think it was SH) just like Boeing X-35 so it may not be true that they are pure technology demonstrators


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## a1b2c145

very good thrust~~~

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## sancho

hasnain0099 said:


> But sir F-16 XL was produced in direct competition to Super hornet (or Super Eagle don't exactly remember most likely i think it was SH) just like Boeing X-35 so it may not be true that they are pure technology demonstrators


I think the X in these cases are just a bit irritating and has nothing to do with real X-planes. The F16XL for example was only a larger version of the F16 with a different wing design and could be named XL because of that and not because of new technologies (btw it was fielded against the F15 Strike Eagle).

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## hazi

i heard later on that the j-10 is later on going to be powered with the chinese ws-10a. There also rumours that a variant of the ws-10a which has thrust vectoring capabilities are undergoing tests.

Are the pakistani FC-20s going to be powered by anyone one of these engines.


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## gambit

sancho said:


> I think the X in these cases are just a bit irritating and has nothing to do with real X-planes. The F16XL for example was only a larger version of the F16m with a different wing design and could be named XL because of that and not because of new technologies (btw it was fielded against the F15 Strike Eagle).


Supposedly against the F-15 Eagle, which would result in the Strike Eagle, but the original intention for the XL was for research for a delta winged supersonic transport, Supersonic Cruise and Maneuvering Program (SCAMP), for which the small size of the F-16 and its highly configurable fly-by-wire flight control system was well suited for the research. Then when there was a chance turn the new design into a functional combat fighter with the new technology, GenDyn understandably jumped at the chance.

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## SBD-3

gambit said:


> Supposedly against the F-15 Eagle, which would result in the Strike Eagle, but the original intention for the XL was for research for a delta winged supersonic transport, Supersonic Cruise and Maneuvering Program (SCAMP), for which the small size of the F-16 and its highly configurable fly-by-wire flight control system was well suited for the research. Then when there was a chance turn the new design into a functional combat fighter with the new technology, GenDyn understandably jumped at the chance.


i read it somewhere that it is still in use with NASA.what kind of use is it being under?


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## Arsalan

it may be, can be used for testing modren systems by applying them to this platform!
i guess Gambit can confirm this for us!

anyway let us get back on track, the J10!!

regards!


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## SBD-3

any latest roumer about J-10?


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## Arsalan

asking about a rumor or a news!

i guess you must be more intrested in some real news instead!!!
well atleast i am anxious about some news about the FC20 specs, speciall with indian MRCA around the corner. i hope the same goes for almost everyone here!

regards!


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## owais.usmani



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## SQ8

must be the angle but it looks psed... still.. might be the angle and the frames..


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## Hunter911




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## Hunter911

xx said: "The boys in India, do not go to Tibet to stir up trouble; you know that you are faced with a beast &#65311; Don't provoke it! And your mother want you to go home for dinner!"

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## Ghazy

Is it FC-20


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## Owais

Hunter911 said:


> Allah said: "The boys in India, do not go to Tibet to stir up trouble; you know that you are faced with a beast &#65311; Don't provoke it! And your mother want you to go home for dinner!"



is this image a photoshopped? I heard that Jxx is still on paper


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## mean_bird

Hunter911 said:


> Allah said: "The boys in India, do not go to Tibet to stir up trouble; you know that you are faced with a beast &#65311; Don't provoke it! And your mother want you to go home for dinner!"



I don't want to offend anyone here but please keep Allah out of this. 


This picture is a photoshop job just in case some people fall for it.

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## Arsalan

Hunter911 said:


> Allah said: "The boys in India, do not go to Tibet to stir up trouble; you know that you are faced with a beast &#65311; Don't provoke it! And your mother want you to go home for dinner!"


well you better edit this post as it is not right to associate things with Allah just to prove your point!!
i man i and all of the Muslim fell offended! guys you better keep your eyes open for such non sense, only mean-bird picked it out from alll of you people!! 
i man we shold not neglect such attitude!!
MOD pleas take care of this, also Hunter it will be better to remove this as soon as possible!!

regards!

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## Arsalan

well sorry guys no offense to you people but i am surprised that how did people like Sir. Owais and Batman missed it all together!!
i hope you can understand my feelings and dont get angry with me!!
take care of this stuff sir !!

regards!


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## SQ8

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well sorry guys no offense to you people but i am surprised that how did people like Sir. Owais and Batman missed it all together!!
> i hope you can understand my feelings and dont get angry with me!!
> take care of this stuff sir !!
> 
> regards!



That would be the human condition.. And generally not all that obvious.. 
Besides its a cultural misunderstanding.. Lets send Mr hunter a polite PM to tell him of his little faux pax. 
Besides.. how many MUSLIMS have intentionally or Unintentionally insulted another religion.


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## BATMAN

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well sorry guys no offense to you people but i am surprised that how did people like Sir. Owais and *Batman missed it all together*!!
> QUOTE]
> What are you reffering to?


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## Hunter911

Dear Muslim friends, on my terms wrong, i awoke to the danger.
I had corrected it. However, I must make it clear that I am not an insult to Muslim people. Although I am a person who atheism.

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## SBD-3

Hunter911 said:


> xx said: "The boys in India, do not go to Tibet to stir up trouble; you know that you are faced with a beast &#65311; Don't provoke it! And your mother want you to go home for dinner!"


Dear thats the old "JXX" rumored stuff that I ve been watching for months now.I also saw pics where something like Raptor was flying in the skies of Shanghai.I am not able to sort out true JXX up till now JXX is supposedly in the 2nd phase i.e design phase so there is no question of prototype development up till now


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## TaimiKhan

http://img170.imageshack.us/i/j10b1920x1080.jpg/ http://g.imageshack.us/img170/j10b1920x1080.jpg/1/

http://img517.imageshack.us/i/125034152798511.jpg/ http://g.imageshack.us/img517/125034152798511.jpg/1/


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## seele9999

PSed BY &#39640;&#23665;&#65292;end of discussion&#12290;the real projet still classified&#12290;

but this dude(&#39640;&#23665 first made a cg of j10b&#65288;95&#37; accuracy&#65289; he got something...i guess..

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## Arsalan

BATMAN said:


> What are you reffering to?



i am refeering to the post by Mr. Hunter! you read the post i guess and thanked it,, here is what i was amazed at:


> *Allah said*: "The boys in India, do not go to Tibet to stir up trouble; you know that you are faced with a beast &#65311; Don't provoke it! And your mother want you to go home for dinner!"


i hope you can understand, anyway he have edited it now and i acknowledge his understanding!!

regards!


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## Arsalan

Hunter911 said:


> Dear Muslim friends, on my terms wrong, i awoke to the danger.
> I had corrected it. However, I must make it clear that I am not an insult to Muslim people. Although I am a person who atheism.



well it is fine as far as you have edited your post. thanks for understanding, i really appreciate it.
i understand that all this was by mistake and not an intentional offense.
again, thankyou for understand my point!

regards!

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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well it is fine as far as you have edited your post. thanks for understanding, i really appreciate it.
> i understand that all this was by mistake and not an intentional offense.
> again, thankyou for understand my point!
> 
> regards!



dual posting


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## PAFAce

Came across an interesting article related to the J-10 in Aviation Week. It says that:
*"The Chinese navy hints that the country is working on a supercruise for a J-10 successor or derivative"*.

I can't post the whole thing, it's too long, but here are the main points.

*Aviation Week & Space Technology*
Bradley Perrett - April 27, 2009 - Beijing

*Speed Priority: China's navy lays out its requirements and one is a supercruising fighter.*

- Chinese naval Admiral Wu Shengli has outlined a supercruising fighter as a "high priority".
- Step up work on precision missiles to overcome enemy defenses.
- Faster development of combat surface ships, probably the aircraft carrier program that is increasingly imminent.
- The design of the J-XX is unknown. It could be a new aircraft or quite possibly a development of the J-10.
- J-10's configuration is similar to the Eurofighter Typhoon, which the manufacturer says can supercruise at Mach 1.5, although it is likely to be somewhat slower with a useful external load.
- For Chinese navy, supercrusiing would allow to cover large defensive area in less time, quite useful if the imagined target is a US carrier group at long range.
- All demands look quite achievable for the Chinese navy over the next decade.
- Adm. Shegli: "We must develop new-generation weapons such as large surface combat ships, stealthy long-endurance submarines, supercruising combat aircraft, precision long-range missiles that can penetrate defenses, as well as deep-diving, fast and intelligent torpedoes, and electronic combat equipment offering compatibility and commonality.
- "we need to enhance the modern technology content of our equipment and move to new-generation quality and the next step in performance."
- Supercruising aircraft would almost certainly fly from naval land bases.
- Defence penetrating weapon is likely the ship-homing version of the DF-21 ballistic missile.
- An amphibious or carrier task-group is most likely a long-term aspiration.

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## SBD-3

PAFAce said:


> Came across an interesting article related to the J-10 in Aviation Week. It says that:
> *"The Chinese navy hints that the country is working on a supercruise for a J-10 successor or derivative"*.
> 
> I think you are talking about Super-10
> hay any rumor about J-11/J-10 hybrid?


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## sancho

PAFAce said:


> Came across an interesting article related to the J-10 in Aviation Week. It says that:
> *"The Chinese navy hints that the country is working on a supercruise for a J-10 successor or derivative"*.
> 
> I can't post the whole thing, it's too long, but here are the main points.
> 
> *Aviation Week & Space Technology*
> Bradley Perrett - April 27, 2009 - Beijing
> 
> *Speed Priority: China's navy lays out its requirements and one is a supercruising fighter.*
> 
> - Chinese naval Admiral Wu Shengli has outlined a supercruising fighter as a "high priority".
> - Step up work on precision missiles to overcome enemy defenses.
> - Faster development of combat surface ships, probably the aircraft carrier program that is increasingly imminent.
> - The design of the J-XX is unknown. It could be a new aircraft or quite possibly a development of the J-10.
> - J-10's configuration is similar to the Eurofighter Typhoon, which the manufacturer says can supercruise at Mach 1.5, although it is likely to be somewhat slower with a useful external load.
> - For Chinese navy, supercrusiing would allow to cover large defensive area in less time, quite useful if the imagined target is a US carrier group at long range.
> - All demands look quite achievable for the Chinese navy over the next decade.
> - Adm. Shegli: "We must develop new-generation weapons such as large surface combat ships, stealthy long-endurance submarines, supercruising combat aircraft, precision long-range missiles that can penetrate defenses, as well as deep-diving, fast and intelligent torpedoes, and electronic combat equipment offering compatibility and commonality.
> - "we need to enhance the modern technology content of our equipment and move to new-generation quality and the next step in performance."
> - Supercruising aircraft would almost certainly fly from naval land bases.
> - Defence penetrating weapon is likely the ship-homing version of the DF-21 ballistic missile.
> - An amphibious or carrier task-group is most likely a long-term aspiration.


Mh, it sounds like they want to design a whole new aircraft just to get supercruise capability, but aren't the engine and the thrust to weight ratio of the aircraft the important parts of SC? 
I mean the Gripen NG proves SC with the GE 414 engine, but the F18SH which had the same engine don't offer that capability. So if they wan SC, don't they have to improve the engine of J10 mainly?


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## seele9999

chinese fourm call it 3.75

somebody said it's a failed project for next gen fighter,air force don't wanna it,but navy like it for now.&#8592; chinese fourm rumour may be totally bullshit

my point,j10X,not likely..if it's real,will be jXX

i guess it's finally be a rumor or big surprise.

both could happen.

ps,my english is poor,sorry guys.

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## hj786

seele9999 said:


> chinese fourm call it 3.75
> 
> somebody said it's a failed project for next gen fighter,air force don't wanna it,but navy like it for now.&#8592; chinese fourm rumour may be totally bullshit
> 
> my point,j10X,not likely..if it's real,will be jXX
> 
> i guess it's finally be a rumor or big surprise.
> 
> both could happen.
> 
> ps,my english is poor,sorry guys.



Your english is fine buddy! 
J-10B was just a rumour until the authentic pictures came out a few months ago. 
Seele, how about a supercruising J-10 by around 2015? Are there any rumours about a turbofan more advanced than WS-10A (possibly WS-15) completing development by that time? The reason I ask is that according to a very respected poster (he used to fly F-16 for the Pakistan Air Force), the Chinese offered two engines to Pakistan for J-10P (FC-20): one is a current engine (we believe this is the WS-10A), but the other is a next generation engine that is still being worked on by China (which we think must be WS-15). What do you think?


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## seele9999

i think if there is j10 navy type or jxx or su33 copy depends on Varyag carrier reconstruction progress&#12290;&#65288;almost done&#65289;may be around 2010-2012

WS10 series will be done in 2010,rumour.but seems ture.about ws15.i don't konw much.but is the key issue of plaaf.won't be too easy.

my guess is,2012, new type of j10,navy's new toy and etc.2015,if lucky,ws15 and 5th gen fighter.

but,u konw,things change everyday,especially in china.

regards.


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## Id46

I hope we get this combat jet soon, so we can strengthen our defense.


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## Munir

seele9999 said:


> i think if there is j10 navy type or jxx or su33 copy depends on Varyag carrier reconstruction progress&#12290;&#65288;almost done&#65289;may be around 2010-2012
> 
> WS10 series will be done in 2010,rumour.but seems ture.about ws15.i don't konw much.but is the key issue of plaaf.won't be too easy.
> 
> my guess is,2012, new type of j10,navy's new toy and etc.2015,if lucky,ws15 and 5th gen fighter.
> 
> but,u konw,things change everyday,especially in china.
> 
> regards.



I think China will go for su33/35cause they can absorb the technology faster. The next plane will be true Chinese. A naval J10 won't be a true option cause the design is not handy (delta, canards, gear, intake) for carriers That is what my opinion is...


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## hazi

do you think thats why the pakistan j-10 has been delayed to 2014-2015?

i would be really glad if you could answer my question!!!


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## Munir

hazi said:


> do you think thats why the pakistan j-10 has been delayed to 2014-2015?
> 
> i would be really glad if you could answer my question!!!



According to ex acm the reason is purely financial and we just finished our specifications so it needed to be different then what can be bought now. Besides that in 5 years the plane can mature.


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## SBD-3

hj786 said:


> Your english is fine buddy!
> J-10B was just a rumour until the authentic pictures came out a few months ago.
> Seele, how about a supercruising J-10 by around 2015? Are there any rumours about a turbofan more advanced than WS-10A (possibly WS-15) completing development by that time? The reason I ask is that according to a very respected poster (he used to fly F-16 for the Pakistan Air Force), the Chinese offered two engines to Pakistan for J-10P (FC-20): one is a current engine (we believe this is the WS-10A), but the other is a next generation engine that is still being worked on by China (which we think must be WS-15). What do you think?



from my readings I think Pakistan has not gone for WS-10A immediatly because of its immaturity W-15 is still a distant possibilty as it will complement JXX which itself is distant so the only reason would be PAF is looking for airframe maturity and engine maturity


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## SBD-3

Munir said:


> I think China will go for su33/35cause they can absorb the technology faster. The next plane will be true Chinese. A naval J10 won't be a true option cause the design is not handy (delta, canards, gear, intake) for carriers That is what my opinion is...



but CB rafael serves as an example


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## seele9999

Munir said:


> I think China will go for su33/35cause they can absorb the technology faster. The next plane will be true Chinese. A naval J10 won't be a true option cause the design is not handy (delta, canards, gear, intake) for carriers That is what my opinion is...



su33,possible&#12290;su35?hmmmm not very likely...

another rumour is navy have F18/SU hybrid version project...

ps,let's me explain why pla have so much rumour.we have nearly 0.4 billions Internet user,any chinese fourm is a disater.trust me.hard to tell what is ture,what is not... but if chinese fourm have some leak pics,i will post it here asap.

again apologize for my english level..regards.

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## seele9999

w w w.fyjs.cn/bbs/htm_data/27/0908/201805.html

10.1 National Day parade plaaf training pics (j10 Air-air Refueling ,jh7,z9,etc)

plz del the space between www

regards.

god...i hate my isp..


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## SBD-3

seele9999 said:


> w w w.fyjs.cn/bbs/htm_data/27/0908/201805.html
> 
> 10.1 parade plaaf training pics (j10 Air-air Refueling ,jh7,z9,etc)
> 
> plz del the space between www
> 
> regards.
> 
> god...i hate my isp..



looks like pics from some sort of parade


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## Arsalan

sancho said:


> Mh, it sounds like they want to design a whole new aircraft just to get supercruise capability, but aren't the engine and the thrust to weight ratio of the aircraft the important parts of SC?
> I mean the Gripen NG proves SC with the GE 414 engine, but the F18SH which had the same engine don't offer that capability. So if they wan SC, don't they have to improve the engine of J10 mainly?



well nothing hints to development of a new design. not atleast in this report as far as i get it!
it only claims that they want to develop a SC fighter plane,,
yes with a TV engine for J10 on cards, super cruise may be next to come,,
i wonder if we can get it on our FC20 but i dint think it will happen, not atleast with the first 36 ordered!!

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well nothing hints to development of a new design. not atleast in this report as far as i get it!
> it only claims that they want to develop a SC fighter plane,,
> yes with a TV engine for J10 on cards, super cruise may be next to come,,
> i wonder if we can get it on our FC20 but i dint think it will happen, not atleast with the first 36 ordered!!
> 
> regards!


well China can buy AL-41F which is SC capable so no prob for them.Yap PAF won't see SC capable fighter any soon only if it by negligible chance decides to buy Griffon NG


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> well China can buy AL-41F which is SC capable so no prob for them.Yap PAF won't see SC capable fighter any soon only if it by negligible chance decides to buy Griffon NG



well i am not talking about a new plane to induct the SC ability but only about FC20 being able to super cruise.
as i said, it wont be there with the first 36 ordered but the follow orders may see them!!

regards!


----------



## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> as i said, it wont be there with the first 36 ordered *but the follow orders may see them!!*
> 
> regards!



No chance baby.


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> No chance *baby*.



and what make you so sure,,
any links with chines military top brass? ? ? 



> No chance baby


 is what we first heared for our nuclear programme,


> No chance baby


 was exactly what the world thought about our indegenious fighter palne,
it was again a


> No chance baby


, which we received when we talked about our missile programmes,

so *baby* you better dont put your money on it!

regards!


----------



## Chinamilitary

Exposure! China disclosed J-10B fighter plane.

wareye.com/exposure-china-disclosed-j-10b-fighter-plane


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## Narkun

I was expecting to have significant stealth features. Slightly disappointed.


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## Myth_buster_1

Narkun said:


> I was expecting to have significant stealth features. Slightly disappointed.



Huh? its merely a 4.5 generation MRCA not 5ht! btw be disappointed at that 30 years old LCA project. eat up so much money and still not in production yet. all we hear is... next year, next year... lol i wont be surprised if J-10B gets FOC before LCA.


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## Arsalan

well this is the same thing we have been discussing for long on the relavent thread.. nothing new!
the only news in this article for me was that; boy call it the J10B from now!!
we have desicussed so much about it and take it be be an upgraded J10, just never used J10B for it!!

anyway saying all this, it truely is a great plane and once we get it after further modification as per our requirement under the designation of FC20, it will surely help PAF out of hot water they had been in for the past decade or so!!

regards!

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## SinoIndusFriendship

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well this is the same thing we have been discussing for long on the relavent thread.. nothing new!
> the only news in this article for me was that; boy call it the J10B from now!!
> we have desicussed so much about it and take it be be an upgraded J10, just never used J10B for it!!
> 
> anyway saying all this, it truely is a great plane and once we get it after further modification as per our requirement under the designation of FC20, it will surely help PAF out of hot water they had been in for the past decade or so!!
> 
> regards!



You guys might want to wait for the twin-engine version of J-10.


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## Jako

Twin engined version?....are you for real?


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## Adios Amigo

Jako said:


> Twin engined version?....are you for real?



yes, wats wrong with that, china is considering for its navy, it will be called j10c or super 10.


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## Arsalan

SinoIndusFriendship said:


> You guys might want to wait for the twin-engine version of J-10.


wellnothing planned as yet, , 
it might well saty more of a rumor then becoming a news anytime soon!
in the mean while PAF wil go ahead with FC20 with the first order schedueled for 2015!

regards!


----------



## Munir

If they are serious about naval J10 then I think it will be twin engined... You do not risk planes on the ocen and you need that extra power to get more and faster form the deck... But since Russia offered Su32/35 it might be less priority... We will see. I think a twin engined would be nice for PAF...


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## Adios Amigo

here is its pic,




View attachment 4644


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## Manticore

> Recently, China announced the J-10B fighter plane.
> 
> The aircraft is the latest version of Chinas fourth generation fighter aircraft J-10, beling similar to FC-1, it used the clam-type inlet, abandoned the traditional rectangular inlet design, in the case of the normal work of the aircraft engine ensured, the aircraft was simplified design, reduced the moving parts of the inlet, in reducing the weight of the aircraft at the same time, also reduced the cross section of the aircrafts radar.
> 
> J-10B was installed photovoltaic targeting device at right anterior side of the cockpit, which is similar to J-10 and Su-27 China equiped. The device includes the infrared search, track sensors and laser range finder, which can detect enemy targets passively without startup Radar passive case detection of enemy targets, reduces ones own aircraft probability of detection.
> 
> J-10B was installed electronic countermeasures devices, which are located on both sides of the cockpit and engine vents on both sides of the end of the wire array, as well as the electronic module at the top of the vertical tail, it is believed to be mainly used for electronic countermeasures.



nothing new in it... i bet they wont take out the rabbit out of the hat that early infront of the media


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## Manticore

Twin engined options for china
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...-thunder-multirole-fighter-83.html#post437649


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## jnd3x0

as we heard j 10b(fc 20) will be given to pakistan,so what will be more in our fc 20 then noemal j 10a and how it will go against f16,f16 blk 52,j 10 ,su30mki,mirage 2000,n marca


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## jnd3x0

normal* j10 and jf 17..


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## SBD-3

jnd3x0 said:


> as we heard j 10b(fc 20) will be given to pakistan,so what will be more in our fc 20 then noemal j 10a and how it will go against f16,f16 blk 52,j 10 ,su30mki,mirage 2000,n marca



let the specs come out first


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## All-Green

Salaams jnd3x0
Please route all questions pertaining to FC-20 and any related queries in the relevant thread which is very active and more likely to get you the answers.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca.html

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## nightrider_saulat

*can't see the pic*


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## Arsalan

All-Green said:


> Salaams jnd3x0
> Please route all questions pertaining to FC-20 and any related queries in the relevant thread which is very active and more likely to get you the answers.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca.html



cold'nt agree mre,
if you can visit that thread you will find out that this threas main claim just speculation and nothing else.
do visit 

it surely will help,
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca.html
regards!


----------



## Arsalan

it is not displayed here,
go to the link posted and you will end up in JF17 thread where it is displayed!!

i hope you get it this time...

regards!


----------



## Super Falcon

well good news for us J 10 B will be more faster and ore lethal


----------



## Super Falcon

-10B is a modified variant of the J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, with modifications in airframe and avionics. Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) of AVIC began to develop a follow-on variant of its J-10 fighter around 2004/05. A J-10B prototype reportedly made its maiden flight in December 2008. Photos of the aircraft began on emerge on the Chinese Internet in March 2009. FULL


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## Karvin

good, i like it


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## Arsalan

we all did,
but perhaps the bird that we are looking forward to be painted in PAF colors ie the FC20 is different from even the J10B,
J10B was the planned upgarded version of J10 and the sequence is rumored to went on to a J10C but the FC20 will be a different designation and a different palne, 
perhaps it might not be something entirely different but will be modified to look upon our requirment of specs that are fairly different from those that the chines need for themselves,,
a need to complement various westren systems in service with PAF being one of them,

regards!


----------



## Munir

We can say everything but there is no written or spoken evidence what exactly the J10P/FC20 will be... The J10A was not good enough, but how can we be sure it is the J10B? I think PAF is as usual playing hide and not willing or not able to say something useful.


----------



## Arsalan

agreed,
the spec, not even the intended specs of FC20 are know as yet, being kept secret as the J10 project itslef was....
perhaps the specs of FC20 will also be slightly influenced by indian MMRCA winner,
it is not that the J10 was not good but it was not according to our requirments, i mea we usually want our system to be able to accept both chines and westren systems and this surely is one of various points that will be kept in focus while making the FC20!

regards!


----------



## SBD-3

But there hasn't been any rumor about PAF's requirements.Perhaps PAF is still considering the specs of FC-20 causing the delay in the project like engine radar and other things


----------



## Hunter911

arsalanaslam123 said:


> we all did,
> but perhaps the bird that we are looking forward to be painted in PAF colors ie the FC20 is different from even the J10B,
> J10B was the planned upgarded version of J10 and the sequence is rumored to went on to a J10C but the FC20 will be a different designation and a different palne,
> perhaps it might not be something entirely different but will be modified to look upon our requirment of specs that are fairly different from those that the chines need for themselves,,
> a need to complement various westren systems in service with PAF being one of them,
> 
> regards!


yeah.That's a problem about chinese radar .Some reports said that, Pakistan is studying and develops its own new radar.I think that Pakistan has already had some new radars now.


----------



## SBD-3

Hunter911 said:


> yeah.That's a problem about chinese radar .Some reports said that, *Pakistan is studying and develops its own new radar*.I think that Pakistan has already had some new radars now.


can you please provide the link?
and yes PAC is already producing Grifo's for F-7PGs i think


----------



## irfan wazir

when this aircraft will be supply to pakistan there is any possibility to give this plane to pakistan and if yes than how many


----------



## SBD-3

irfan wazir said:


> when this aircraft will be supply to pakistan there is any possibility to give this plane to pakistan and if yes than how many


36 initially and might come up in B/W 2012-2015


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## Hunter911

hasnain0099 said:


> can you please provide the link?
> and yes PAC is already producing Grifo's for F-7PGs i think



Oh brother, this is a secret .Who leaked Who will be got in jail.

Pakistan's UAV project includes not only Germany or Turkey UAV products and technologies, the ultimate aim is to have its own co-aperture radar and so on.
We need to be patient.
regards!


----------



## SBD-3

Hunter911 said:


> Oh brother, this is a secret .Who leaked Who will be got in jail.



lolz now thats some information


----------



## Hunter911

nightrider_saulat said:


> *can't see the pic*




Musharraf deserves the respect of many people. Therefore, the terrorists afraid of him, but people respect him very much. so sir, if he saw you've used his portrait ,how would you do?

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## Arsalan

irfan wazir said:


> when this aircraft will be supply to pakistan there is any possibility to give this plane to pakistan and if yes than how many



PAF as yet have ordered 36 FC20 aircrafts, saod to be deleivered somewhere in 2014-2015!
however these 36 are only the initial order, once deleivered and inducted into PAF, we are certain to see more follow-up oreders,
the number may go upto somewhere around 100 eventually
hope it helped!

regards!


----------



## a1b2c145

arsalanaslam123 said:


> PAF as yet have ordered 36 FC20 aircrafts, saod to be deleivered somewhere in 2014-2015!
> however these 36 are only the initial order, once deleivered and inducted into PAF, we are certain to see more follow-up oreders,
> the number may go upto somewhere around 100 eventually
> hope it helped!
> 
> regards!



yes! 36. exactly~~~~~~~~``


----------



## a1b2c145

arsalanaslam123 said:


> PAF as yet have ordered 36 FC20 aircrafts, saod to be deleivered somewhere in 2014-2015!
> however these 36 are only the initial order, once deleivered and inducted into PAF, we are certain to see more follow-up oreders,
> the number may go upto somewhere around 100 eventually
> hope it helped!
> 
> regards!



yes! 36. exactly~~~~~~~~``


----------



## Arsalan

a1b2c145 said:


> yes! 36. exactly~~~~~~~~``



only initially!!
well i cannot wait to atleast get some insight on its specs, i know it will be kept under covers but let us atleast get our hands onto some harmless information,,

regards!


----------



## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> only initially!!
> well i cannot wait to atleast get some insight on its specs, i know it will be kept under covers but let us atleast get our hands onto some harmless information,,
> 
> regards!



Like what?? Brother one specification can give a good guess about others  and I agree with you on number of FC-20 will increase from initial 36. PAF will pull limits of these plans before telling CAC which new teeth we want for this beast


----------



## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> Like what?? Brother one specification can give a good guess about others


something about the engine like whether it will be TV and SC,, both the abilities are rumored to come with them, if not with the initial 36 then atleast with follw order,



> and I agree with you on number of FC-20 will increase from initial 36. PAF will pull limits of these plans before telling CAC which new teeth we want for this beast


i didnt said it onmy own, it is stated by PAF officials! 

regards!


----------



## PakShaheen79

Well to be honest I am also looking for some specs but we better forget those before MRCA of IAF is announced.  We both know obvious reasons for this


----------



## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> Well to be honest I am also looking for some specs but we better forget those before MRCA of IAF is announced.  We both know obvious reasons for this



hmm, rightly said. i do not think much will be available about radars, avionics and ECM before the MRCA is finalized by india as we may make change to our requirment accordingly!!
however i hope the engine will show up well before it, atleast we will know that are we going for a chines dveloped engine or will it be something from Russia. i know there are lot of speculations about it at the moment but sit tight as somoe concrete info may be comming soon!!

regards!


----------



## PakShaheen79

Definitely a Chinese engine even i can tell you with 99&#37; authenticity. Russian will never sell AL-31F to Pakistan and to be honest Pakistan must restraint from Russian power plants as well. Those need a lot of maintenance.


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## Arsalan

for maintainance part i agree with you but cannot be sure that chines engines will be a great improvement in this regard either. moerover it is new and un reliable!!
for Russians not going to sell them to pakistan, it wont be he case. china and paksitan if come up with a joint purchase deal, russians wont ever decline it, thats for sure. the only problem can be that china may not be willing to let us have a russian engine as they will be keen to sale there own!!

regards!

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## hj786

PakShaheen79 said:


> Definitely a Chinese engine even i can tell you with 99&#37; authenticity. Russian will never sell AL-31F to Pakistan and to be honest Pakistan must restraint from Russian power plants as well. Those need a lot of maintenance.


They didn't just sell RD-93, they're offering upgraded versions with TVC, they know InAF will probably not select MiG-35 anyway. Why wouldn't they sell a simple basic Al-31FN? The Chinese may well just install engines from their existing stockpile and order some more for themselves. Is Russia going to say no to one of their biggest customers when they have many R&D projects to fund?



arsalanaslam123 said:


> the only problem can be that china may not be willing to let us have a russian engine as they will be keen to sale there own!!


That is a very good point you brought up.


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## Arsalan

it is not only that Russians may fel betrayed by indian MRCA project, in fact this may not be a case as russians have other projects worth billions of dollars going on wiht indians and they wont like to offened them to lose these aswell. the actual problem that they wont even like to decline a chines request because the venturs with china surely do worth more, moreove having said that russians wont betray indians just for sake of MRCA but still it wont be easy for them to digest a 10 billion project going down the drain, this will help us!! provided chines ask russian for engines for Pakistan!!

regards!


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## WaleedGilani

guys do you know how many j10s are ordered by pakistan????/


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## TOPGUN

WaleedGilani said:


> guys do you know how many j10s are ordered by pakistan????/



36 are planned to be orderd ! perhaps nothing is finial as of yet from wat i know again the #'s can and i think will go up in the future once we have mastered the aircraft and offcourse need to fill in the gaps for hi-tech aircraft ...


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## PakShaheen79

hj786 said:


> They didn't just sell RD-93, they're offering upgraded versions with TVC, they know InAF will probably not select MiG-35 anyway. Why wouldn't they sell a simple basic Al-31FN? The Chinese may well just install engines from their existing stockpile and order some more for themselves. Is Russia going to say no to one of their biggest customers when they have many R&D projects to fund?
> 
> Ever heard something known as PAK-FA or T-50?? This will explain reason for not selling AL-31FN next please note the time line 0f 2014-15 this also means PAF wanted plane with Chinese engine and not with Russians.


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## Arsalan

WaleedGilani said:


> guys do you know how many j10s are ordered by pakistan????/




*guys* why dont you bother to turn some pages and look for the question in atleast few of last pages. 
tell you what, you will find it funny as this question is answered daily since last four days or so. you can chek it as a daily post. 
infact i am thinking to make it my first post daily, whenever i log on i will post this information. or i may even make it my signature 

look brother Waleed i do not mean that i want to offened you all i want you to realize is that instead of just logging in and asking a question, if you manage to search for it on the forum you will easily find out the answer but more importantly you are sure to come across varoius other very important and intresting information...
i hope you understand! this is just a friendly advice to you,,

regards!


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## jalip

arsalanaslam123 said:


> *guys* why dont you bother to turn some pages and look for the question in atleast few of last pages.
> tell you what, you will find it funny as this question is answered daily since last four days or so. you can chek it as a daily post.
> infact i am thinking to make it my first post daily, whenever i log on i will post this information. or i may even make it my signature
> 
> look brother Waleed i do not mean that i want to offened you all i want you to realize is that instead of just logging in and asking a question, if you manage to search for it on the forum you will easily find out the answer but more importantly you are sure to come across varoius other very important and intresting information...
> i hope you understand! this is just a friendly advice to you,,
> 
> regards!


totally agree next time if some body posses this kind of question 
Arslan will be like


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## Arsalan

jalip said:


> totally agree next time if some body posses this kind of question
> Arslan will be like


so what else do you expect. everyone here is to get knowledge and i dont think there is anything wrong in searching a few pages for your own good!!
do people expect that every thing will be presented in a platter and that too three times a day,,
however i never meant to be offensive toward waleed and you also kindly do not try to make sch an impression out of my post,
i hope he understand what i meant to say to him,,,



> Arslan will be like



i have to, i am not allowed to be like  otherwise that is what i would like more...

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

I think a more sensible question can be where Pakistan Air Force will house these two squadrons of FC-20s? On which bases? Any guess and logic behind that guess?


----------



## Zarbe Momin

one may be in sargodha and other may be in kamra!


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## SQ8

considering that the army is repeatedly expanding its desert capabilities one should expect better aerial cover in the desert...However only the coming of this aircraft 5 years later will dictate its deployment according to its capabilities.


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## Arsalan

santro said:


> considering that the army is repeatedly expanding its desert capabilities one should expect better aerial cover in the desert...However only the coming of this aircraft 5 years later will dictate its deployment according to its capabilities.



the new blk 52 F16s will be based at Sukkher,,,

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the new blk 52 F16s will be based at Sukkher,,,
> 
> regards!



It makes a lot of sense as well. First of all air base will get new facilities along with new shelters for planes. Secondly, It you look at map closely Sukkar is very critical as it is soft belly of Pakistan and also don't forget all important Sukkar Barrage and other located on Indus.


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## wild peace

appy Defence Day to all of you,

May Pakistan Live long,
Inshallah!


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## SQ8

I thought the new B-52's were going to Jacobabad..??... or is that close to Sukkur..god I really have forgotten my geography..


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## PakShaheen79

Both Jacobabad and Sukkar are located in Sindh province.


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## SQ8

I was aware of that.. but I was wondering why he mentioned Sukkur..since Jacobabad is in the vicinity... and I have not heard of PAF Sukkur..

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## Arsalan

he news about Shabaz Airbase Sukkar was:


> *ECC grants Rs 7bn loan for Jacobabad airbase upgrade*
> 
> ISLAMABAD: The Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) guaranteed on Tuesday to provide Rs 7 billion in loans to convert the Shahbaz Airbase in Jacobabad from a forward-operating base to a main-operating base.
> 
> A forward-operating base is only activated at times of war, while a main-operating base is fully operational in all states of combat readiness. Chaired by Federal Privatisation Minister Syed Naveed Qamar, the ECC meeting at the Prime Minister&#8217;s Secretariat granted ex-post facto approval for a government of Pakistan Guarantee and Term Finance Agreement for a loan of Rs 1 billion from the Allied Bank Limited for the base conversion.
> 
> The meeting also approved another government of Pakistan guarantee for Rs 6 billion during its discussion into the acquisition of a bank loan for the base conversion. It also approved the term finance agreement for the same amount that had already been signed by the Finance Division for the upgradation of the base.
> 
> The ECC also approved several other initiatives during the meeting, including the extension by one year of a Rs 3 billion government guarantee for the Karachi Electric Supply Company financial improvement plan.



it may be possible that i got it wrong at they might be based here but it is not mentioned in this report. actually i heared the news some time ago and do not actually remember it exactly. my be some senior member who do remember can guide us here!

regards!


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## Arsalan

santro said:


> I was aware of that.. but I was wondering why he mentioned Sukkur..since Jacobabad is in the vicinity... and I have not heard of PAF Sukkur..


yeap, you got it right my friend!



> *ACM T Mahmood interview September 2008*
> Block 52 F-16's will be based at *PAF Shahbaz *to replace Mirage aircreft in AD role. ''Final modifications are being sorted out in co-ordination with US authorities to ensure F-16 related facilities conform with DSCA standards/requirements''. Persumably this refers to the security guarantees asked for by the US prior to releasing the aircraft to PAF, in that the former wanted the ability to check (unannounced) the presence and location of these aircraft to ensure an example or two did not end up being loaned to someone (like China)



thanks for creating the doubt in my mind making me re-check the information. Thankyou.

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

I think Jacobabad was choosen so that US officials already there can keep an eye on people who are dealing with F-16Ms.


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## SQ8

No Us officials in Jacobabad.. packed up and left a while ago. However.. they did add infrastructure.. which has led to the improvment of Jacobabad.


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## Arsalan

santro said:


> No Us officials in Jacobabad.. packed up and left a while ago. However.. they did add infrastructure.. which has led to the improvment of Jacobabad.



it was being said that due to high temprature in jaccobabad the hangers will be build underground. any news on that??
it was reported that Shahbaz Airbase will be upgraded to turn it into a state of the art, high tech airbase with under ground facilities and F16 blk 52 stationed!!

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

This is really a good news if no yanki is there in Jacobabad. Surely if F-16M will be stationed at SAB it will have to go through some modification or may be expansion in facilities as well as more crew will be there once it is converted into Main Operational Base of PAF.

Current Shelters for fighter jets at SAB


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## SQ8

Nope Arsalan.. nothing on that..only know about the improvements made to the runway and tarmac by the Americans.
Lets just hope the newer blocks even make it to Pakistan.. I have the sickening feeling that to add insult to injury they will be blockaded soon and given to the Moroccans as a starter package.


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## PakShaheen79

santro said:


> Nope Arsalan.. nothing on that..only know about the improvements made to the runway and tarmac by the Americans.
> Lets just hope the newer blocks even make it to Pakistan.. I have the sickening feeling that to add insult to injury they will be blockaded soon and given to the Moroccans as a starter package.



To be honest after all this Harpoon modification sage in news I also have same feelings. But still positive lets wait and see what is there to unfold.


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## Ghazy

PakShaheen79 said:


> Both Jacobabad and Sukkar are located in Sindh province.



Jacobabad is in balochistan, district borders with Sindh province.


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## PakShaheen79

Ghazy said:


> Jacobabad is in balochistan, district borders with Sindh province.



Indeed it has a border with Baluchistan but here for your help. See youself where it is

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## TOPGUN

Does any one know when we get the fc-20's where they will ne stationed?


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## PakShaheen79

TOPGUN said:


> Does any one know when we get the fc-12's where they will ne stationed?


Hope you are talking about FC-20.. OK. In 2013-14 and my wild guess is .......... Chaklala AFB.


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## Sapper

PakShaheen79 said:


> Hope you are talking about FC-20.. OK. In 2013-14 and my wild guess is .......... Chaklala AFB.



I don't think so ... chaklala doesnt have the room to accommodate a couple of squadron of that many planes and support equipment ... besides it is in a very populated area.

Also, it is shared with civilian aircraft and maintenance/ground personnel ... and the most advanced fighter in Pakistan's arsenal should not be exposed to such an easy civilian scrutiny.

My 2 cents


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## PakShaheen79

Sapper said:


> I don't think so ... chaklala doesnt have the room to accommodate a couple of squadron of that many planes and support equipment ... besides it is in a very populated area.
> 
> Also, it is shared with civilian aircraft and maintenance/ground personnel ... and the most advanced fighter in Pakistan's arsenal should not be exposed to such an easy civilian scrutiny.
> 
> My 2 cents



Lol...Ok my wild guess eaten up....
Why you forget to make your own about possible AFB where FC-20 will stationed


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## araz

PakShaheen79 said:


> Lol...Ok my wild guess eaten up....
> Why you forget to make your own about possible AFB where FC-20 will stationed



Would it not depend on what role is perceived for them. We need naval defence, plus defence of our premier installation, so possibly, Karachi and Kamra?? Just a wild guess.
Araz


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## SBD-3

araz said:


> Would it not depend on what role is perceived for them. We need naval defence, plus defence of our premier installation, so possibly, Karachi and Kamra?? Just a wild guess.
> Araz


yap i think one sqadern each at both the places


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## PakShaheen79

araz said:


> Would it not depend on what role is perceived for them. We need naval defence, plus defence of our premier installation, so possibly, Karachi and Kamra?? Just a wild guess.
> Araz



What about Shorkot?? Thunders...? Now we must also keep in mind new F-16M will be on Shahbaz AFB in Jacobabad,Sindh.


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## Arsalan

well for a guess, i dont thik they will be stationed anywhere i sindh!
Sindh is going to have 18F16 blk 52, so for me the FC20 may go to Shorkot being isolated and better located. the other Squadron may well go toward Sargodha.
for sindh (karachi) the task will be upto the Blk 2z, Mirages and latter o the JF when they finall replace them,

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

> for sindh (karachi) the task will be upto the Blk 2z, *Mirages* and latter o the JF when they finall replace them,
> 
> regards!


But Mirages will be retired by then? We are talking about 2014 time line bro. JF-17 will be there much before FC-20s. No doubts Thunders will be there in Sindh AB and also in Karachi but we must also keep in mind 18 F-16M will be used in other roles than defending air space.

Shorkot makes prefect sense for FC-20, at least for one squadron but PAF may have all FC-20 there to minimize expenses in up gradation of air bases. To me Minhas air base Kamra also a big candidate of FC-20 as most of strategic sites are located close to it. Hmmmmmm..... I think we need much more FC-20 than 36.


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## Ghazy

May be due to infancy of Chinese technology in aviation field, PAF has so far ordered 36. But after 2015 when PAF will use FC-20 and "rate" it then number will increased to _ _ _ say around 90-100.

Sorry bro I mixed Jafarabad with Jacobabad


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## SBD-3

Diplomats said that the incident underscored the problems the PLA has had developing an engine for the fighter. "They will be very disappointed by this, one said.The J-10, which China has taken about 20 years to make, was on a training exercise with deputy regiment air force commander Li Feng at the controls. He tried to exercise a tricky manoeuvre at an altitude of 4,500 metres when the engine failed, state media reported. Realising the the jet could lose power at any time, he requested permission to return.Related LinksStiill seven kilometers from the airfield, the engine stopped and the jet began to lose altitude at a rate of 25 metres per second. The pilot succeeded in gliding the fighter onto the runway without power. The rear parachute also failed, but he succeeded in bringing the fighter to a halt after taxiing for some 1,400 metres down the runway.
The entire landing took 104 seconds, state television said. The success of the pilot may have influenced their decision to broadcast the landing.One aviation expert said that the skill of the pilot should not be underestimated. He said: A fighter jet glides like a soggy brick.It was the first reported incident involving the J-10 since it was unveiled with great fanfare before an international audience at the Zhuhai air show in southern China last November. It received several impressive reviews of its performance at the time. Vladimir Karnozov, a Mosco-based aerospace journalist, wrote a blog calling the J-10 the real deal. He said: The pilot did none of the show tricks like post-stall or tail slide or pitch-back, but turns were very tight, initial rate of turn very high. It was clear there is a lot of potential in this airplane to achieve the same maneuvers more quickly. However, diplomats said question marks still hung over the plane, which has taken some 20 years to develop. Most involve its engine.All the J-10 fighters built so far are believed to be powered by a single Russian-built turbofan engine, the AL-31F. Diplomats said that there had been problems adapting the plane and the engine to fit, adding that the use of a Russian engine could affect Chinese plans to sell the jet overseas.
China already has an order for 40 of the fighters from Pakistan.They said that China was keen to install its own engine in the aircraft but so far this had not been possible. Chinese media said last year that the PLA had finally developed an indigenous turbojet engine called the WS-10A, or "Taihang", as it is known commercially, and had started installing it in the J-10.Chinese-made engines are currently used in the twin-engine J-8, which is based on the design of the Russian Sukhoi-15 fighter, but these are still being adapted to the far more rigorous demands of a single-engine jet.
The Chinese engine is believed to take twice as long as the Russian one to reach the same level of performance: the lag of up to one minute could mean the difference between life or death for a pilot needing to restart his engine or eject. The aviation expert said: These single-engine fighters are often known as widow-makers.Experts said that China was apparently still trying to adapt its domestic engines to power the J-10. Its programme faces additional urgency since the PLA may be keen to use fully homemade fighters once it builds its own aircraft carrier. Several senior officers have indicated Chinas construction of such a group is now only a matter of time.
ASIAN DEFENCE: J-10


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## hj786

I think we can expect to see at least one J-10 squadron based at Sargodha for use in Combat Commanders School air combat training sorties, replacing the Mirage squadron. Delta wing fighters are not going to be retired along with PAF's Mirage III/5, therefore pilots going through CCS would need to experience this type of fighter in dissimilar air combat training to develop new tactics as well as refine current tactics.


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## wangrong

first J10 #1001

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## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> But Mirages will be retired by then? We are talking about 2014 time line bro. JF-17 will be there much before FC-20s. No doubts Thunders will be there in Sindh AB and also in Karachi but we must also keep in mind 18 F-16M will be used in other roles than defending air space.
> 
> Shorkot makes prefect sense for FC-20, at least for one squadron but PAF may have all FC-20 there to minimize expenses in up gradation of air bases. To me Minhas air base Kamra also a big candidate of FC-20 as most of strategic sites are located close to it. Hmmmmmm..... I think we need much more FC-20 than 36.



bro have antoher go :


> for sindh (karachi) the task will be upto the Blk 2z, *Mirages and latter on the JF when they finall replace them*,
> 
> regards!


mirages are involved in marinetime warfare duties and will stay there untill they are replaced by JF17, this is what ia am saying!!
so foe me it will be like:
for high end role f16 blk52,
for normal duties Mirages for the time being and JF 17 when it replaces the existing mirage fleet!!
i hope you get the point now!

regards!


----------



## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> Shorkot makes prefect sense for FC-20, at least for one squadron but PAF may have all FC-20 there to minimize expenses in up gradation of air bases.


yeap shorkot is an obvious choice because of its location, it will surely see FC20, if not the first squadrons for one reason or the other then from next batches,



> To me Minhas air base Kamra also a big candidate of FC-20 as most of strategic sites are located close to it.


again agreed, kamra and sargodha are also located at epicenter of our defence industry with coverage as far as Islamabad, AWC, PCA HIT, POF and many more. also *hj786* to support your claim one should not forget sargodha's interception role for fighter flying towards Kohota!!



> Hmmmmmm..... I think we need much more FC-20 than 36



no not again, bro 36 is only the intial order and PAF will surely cme up with follow orders. it is not my claim but what the PAF top brass have said time and time again!! the number is bound to go as high as 100 atleast!

regards!

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

I believe that a sqdrn of FC 20's will be at samungli---quetta, if that air base does not get a couple of sqdrns of JF 17's. 

It will be a big morale booster for baluchistan and will also get some more young baluch kids to jointhe air force.

If it was for my vote---firstsqdrn of Fc 20 for samungli---.

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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> mirages are involved in marinetime warfare duties and will stay there untill they are replaced by JF17, this is what ia am saying!!
> so foe me it will be like:
> for high end role f16 blk52,
> for normal duties Mirages for the time being and JF 17 when it replaces the existing mirage fleet!!
> i hope you get the point now!
> 
> regards!


but we unlike in Past JF will not only have to perform an Antiship role it will also have to engage Fulcrum Ds of IN as well. For naval patrolling it will need a lot of fuel (all three fuel tanks IMHO) plus more than one AShM and then AAMs which would be 2 WVRs on tips. So if it wants to engage MIGs at BVR range it will have to abandon either its ASh role by allowing BVRs or sacrifice range By having lesser fuel. I think FC-20 will be a much better Maritime option as compared to JF-17 as it has 4 more hard points as compared to JF-17 so its a better contender

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## TaimiKhan



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## PakShaheen79

taimikhan said:


> mbjmK3ytHVs[/media] - ???????????



Funnyyyyyy,,, nicely done though.


----------



## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> but we unlike in Past JF will not only have to perform an Antiship role it will also have to engage Fulcrum Ds of IN as well. For naval patrolling it will need a lot of fuel (all three fuel tanks IMHO) plus more than one AShM and then AAMs which would be 2 WVRs on tips. So if it wants to engage MIGs at BVR range it will have to abandon either its ASh role by allowing BVRs or sacrifice range By having lesser fuel. I think FC-20 will be a much better Maritime option as compared to JF-17 as it has 4 more hard points as compared to JF-17 so its a better contender




well that is a strong point!  
but the initial deleiveries of FC20 will have more important tasks at there hand to tackkle threat form our eastren border in form of Su30 and MMRCA. when we are done wiht the follow order then we may see a squadron dedicated to marine duties!
what do you think?

regards!

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## PakShaheen79

Well One think just strike my mind... In presence of BM Pakistan must make sure that it spread its assets all over Pakistan. Pakistan is yet to have a reliable anti missile system so to avoid a possible (emphasis in on possible) missile strikes on air bases by missile like Barhamos etc.


----------



## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> Well One think just strike my mind... In presence of BM Pakistan must make sure that it spread its assets all over Pakistan. Pakistan is yet to have a reliable anti missile system so to avoid a possible (emphasis in on possible) missile strikes on air bases by missile like Barhamos etc.



that is what is being done,
we have some strong deployment all over the country of our present assets. now as the PF is going through modrenization phase the point is still kept in mind!
the deployment of F16Blk52 (when we get them) at *shahbaz* air base is an example of this!!

regards!


----------



## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> that is what is being done,
> we have some strong deployment all over the country of our present assets. now as the PF is going through modrenization phase the point is still kept in mind!
> the deployment of F16Blk52 (when we get them) at *saheen air base* is an example of this!!
> 
> regards!



Isn't it Shahbaz Airbase jacobabad?


----------



## GLOBAL HAWK

taimikhan said:


> mbjmK3ytHVs[/media] - ???????????



Funny video though!! F-22 shotdown by j-10???
I'll leave it to the wisdom of clip makers.


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## Fennecus

New J-10 Pic.

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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> Well One think just strike my mind... In presence of BM Pakistan must make sure that it spread its assets all over Pakistan. Pakistan is yet to have a reliable anti missile system so to avoid a possible (emphasis in on possible) missile strikes on air bases by missile like Barhamos etc.



Brahmos has a range of 290 Km and yet AL version is under development so if you say IA launching it from land I think its range is insufficient it will have to be an AL version but with AWACS in the air detecting it from 450 KMs I think PAF should be able to strike first. I am assuming AWACS over the Airfield if it is a bit away the effective distance would be 600 to 700 KM good margin for PAF to make an interception


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## Arsalan

Fennecus said:


> New J-10 Pic.



nice pic bro but i think it is the old one, isnt it. No ECM housing on topp of tail, air intakes are also the old one as now they use DSI intakes,,
perhaps it is a pic of some of the first batch planes!

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> nice pic bro but i think it is the old one, isnt it. No ECM housing on topp of tail, air intakes are also the old one as now they use DSI intakes,,
> perhaps it is a pic of some of the first batch planes!
> 
> regards!



ECM top housing, DSI intake are all characteristics of J-10*B* It is J-10*A*

Regards


----------



## PakShaheen79

hasnain0099 said:


> Brahmos has a range of 290 Km and yet AL version is under development so if you say IA launching it from land I think its range is insufficient it will have to be an AL version but with AWACS in the air detecting it from 450 KMs I think PAF should be able to strike first. I am assuming AWACS over the Airfield if it is a bit away the effective distance would be 600 to 700 KM good margin for PAF to make an interception



I agree with you on Barhamos range but still there are lots of airbases close to international border which can fall in range of this missile like Lahore, Sialkot etc.


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> I agree with you on Barhamos range but still there are lots of airbases close to international border which can fall in range of this missile like Lahore, Sialkot etc.



here comes another point, Barahmos like other Supersonic cruise missile fly high not like subsonic missile like Babur which can use train hugging and and use hard to detect ideology rather than Russian "Hard Hit with speed" ideology. If brahmos is launched by IA, then it will be easily detected from a good distance as it will not be flying low so it will be intercepted by using SAM sites if they are able to respond in time


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## PakShaheen79

hasnain0099 said:


> here comes another point, Barahmos like other Supersonic cruise missile fly high not like subsonic missile like Babur which can use train hugging and and use hard to detect ideology rather than Russian "Hard Hit with speed" ideology. If brahmos is launched by IA, then it will be easily detected from a good distance as it will not be flying low so it will be intercepted by using SAM sites if they are able to respond in time



Do Pakistan has that sort of SAM systems? I think CIWS are much more potent against cruise missiles rather than SAM system and particularly against one like Barhamos and one more thing 290 KM for a missile traveling supersonic is not that much distance, So PAF will have to have detect mobile launchers of Barahmos and also will have to destroy them before that can hit. Here application of Raad is more significant but i would never mind if any other weapon is used by PAF until and unless it is serving the purpose.


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> Do Pakistan has that sort of SAM systems? I think CIWS are much more potent against cruise missiles rather than SAM system and particularly against one like Barhamos and one more thing 290 KM for a missile traveling supersonic is not that much distance, So PAF will have to have detect mobile launchers of Barahmos and also will have to destroy them before that can hit. Here application of Raad is more significant but i would never mind if any other weapon is used by PAF until and unless it is serving the purpose.


But would you prefer using CIWS against Nuke tipped Brahmos? look 
here is a diagram
<--------------------AWACS+Defenders**--------------------> 

IA-------> Brahmos !!!!! Border SAMs**-----------SAMS** at PAF Base

now you see we may have three options AAMs can intercept them best as they are faster than Brahmos Mach 3max Vs Mach 4. SAMs can also do it we have Spada 2000 plus an indigenous Sam for short range so options are there


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## PakShaheen79

hasnain0099 said:


> But would you prefer using CIWS against Nuke tipped Brahmos? look
> here is a diagram
> <--------------------AWACS+Defenders**-------------------->
> 
> IA-------> Brahmos !!!!! Border SAMs**-----------SAMS** at PAF Base
> 
> now you see we may have three options AAMs can intercept them best as they are faster than Brahmos Mach 3max Vs Mach 4. SAMs can also do it we have Spada 2000 plus an indigenous Sam for short range so options are there


Lol I would never use even SAM to take a nuclear tipped SAM for that matter as SAM's max range would be 20-30 KM (until Pakistan can get something like S-300MPU in order to destroy nuclear tipped missiles at some safe distance)


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## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> ECM top housing, DSI intake are all characteristics of J-10*B* It is J-10*A*
> 
> Regards





> *originally post by myself,,,*
> perhaps it is a pic of some of the first batch planes!


 and that i guess are the ones you call J10. as far as i know the project is now moving *into* J10B,,,

regards!


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> Lol I would never use even SAM to take a nuclear tipped SAM for that matter as SAM's max range would be 20-30 KM (until Pakistan can get something like S-300MPU in order to destroy nuclear tipped missiles at some safe distance)



we have FT-2000 which would do the same but with SS speed the interception distance is much lesser


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## TaimiKhan

Fennecus said:


> New J-10 Pic.



I think Fennecus meant to say that it is a new tandem seated J-10S variant of the old design, China is still manufacturing & inducting the old design J-10 becoz the new J-10B is still some years before it becomes into production line & becomes operational, till then China will keep producing a sufficient number of J-10 aircraft for its air force.


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## TaimiKhan

A miniature J-10 in action  enjoy


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## Haanzo

hasnain0099 said:


> here comes another point, *Barahmos like other Supersonic cruise missile fly high* not like subsonic missile like Babur which can use train hugging and and use hard to detect ideology rather than Russian "Hard Hit with speed" ideology. If brahmos is launched by IA, then it will be easily detected from a good distance as it will not be flying low so it will be intercepted by using SAM sites if they are able to respond in time



I beg to differ have you seen a video of the brahmos flight path ..it does not completely have a high altitude flight path --during the launch and the terminal phase it is very low ,all the brahmos test videos show it attacks the target from the side and not the top

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## SBD-3

Haanzo said:


> I beg to differ have you seen a video of the brahmos flight path ..it does not completely have a high altitude flight path --during the launch and the terminal phase it is very low ,all the brahmos test videos show it attacks the target from the side and not the top



can you please also elaborate that how does it achieves greater maneuverability required at low level while being Mach 3?


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## PakShaheen79

hasnain0099 said:


> can you please also elaborate that how does it achieves greater maneuverability required at low level while being Mach 3?



Guys! Keep the threat to J-10s. Thanks


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## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> and that i guess are the ones you call J10. as far as i know the project is now moving *into* J10B,,,
> 
> regards!



Yeah sure! but it will take some time before it J-10B got matured. While till that time it will be J-10A all the way


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## sancho

hasnain0099 said:


> Brahmos has a range of 290 Km and yet AL version is under development so if you say IA launching it from land I think its range is insufficient it will have to be an AL version but *with AWACS in the air detecting it from 450 KMs* I think PAF should be able to strike first. I am assuming AWACS over the Airfield if it is a bit away the effective distance would be 600 to 700 KM good margin for PAF to make an interception


That's not correct, the maximum instrumental range of Erieye is over 400Km, but for fighters, or cruise missiles it is less. As you can see in the picture the detection range for cruise missiles is less than 200 Km. 

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/7272/saab2000ig9.jpg


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## Haanzo

hasnain0099 said:


> can you please also elaborate that how does it achieves greater maneuverability required at low level while being Mach 3?



yes i agree that maneuverability is inversely proportional to speed but brahmos is not completely non maneuverable, but THE LAND TARGETS ARE NOT MOBILE IN MOST OF THE CASES IN WHICH THE BRAHMOS WILL BE USED ----mostly important radars locations 

and for sea targets you have to consider the simple fact of relative motion as a ship moving at 30 knots will not pose much of a challenge 

i dont want to post anything further about this topic in THIS THREAD


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## naseebkhanniazi

j10 is best but iam wating for j10b give me the information about j10b

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## gambit

Haanzo said:


> yes i agree that maneuverability is inversely proportional to speed but brahmos is not completely non maneuverable, but THE LAND TARGETS ARE NOT MOBILE IN MOST OF THE CASES IN WHICH THE BRAHMOS WILL BE USED ----mostly important radars locations


There are serious considerations in designing a high speed moving body, mainly it is about the body itself. A tube, which is what a missile really is, will undergo longitudinal stress upon any deviation in flight, the higher the speed plus the higher the rate of deviation, the more severe the stress. Avionics will also be affected, especially for the missile's radar antenna if it is gimbaled. All of this add up to a heavier and expensive missile.



Haanzo said:


> and for sea targets you have to consider the simple fact of relative motion as a *ship moving at 30 knots will not pose much of a challenge *


Yes it will...Granted a ship cannot move as fast on sea surface as an aircraft in flight or even a wheeled vehicle on land, its size and its movement require the missile to have %100 accuracy. Think about it for a moment...A building is relatively uniform in shape compared to a ship, which is always length dominant. If a bomb missed the building it will impact the ground and if the error distance is merely one meter, the explosion will do some severe damages to the building. A missile is no different, it will have a descending flight to the ground, a building just happened to be in the way.

Against a ship, however, the missile will dive into the water if it missed the ship, even by just one meter. If the missile is able to maneuver for another attempt, by now the ship will have its defensive measures in full deployment, such as chaff blooms and flares, the odds for a miss dramatically increases as the missile must discriminate the ship from among these distractions. Another miss, even by just one meter, and the ship won the fight. If the ship is already alerted of the missile's approach, in about three seconds it can launch several chaff blooms that will create an electronic cloud several thousands square meters, enough to blanket the missile's radar view, and the ship is still moving behind this cover. Again, even if the error distance is merely one meter, the ship won the fight.

This is why anti-ship attacks fare better with low altitude cruise missiles than other tactics simply because of the 'a-ha' surprise factor that drastically compress the response time from the ship. Not guaranteed , just better odds of success.







There are many attempts to increase the odds of success for an ASCM that remove the 'a-ha' factor from the equation. The above image is one such attempt. What the missile's radar could attempt to do is to take a 'fractal' radar image of a ship based upon its many segmented facets that a composite body has. A ship is a composite body with doors, stairs, windows, guns...etc...etc...That produces large variations of radar returns. But it is known that the largest facets are the ones near the center of the ship. Algorithms can be introduced into the avionics package to instruct the missile to home in on the greatest concentration of those large facets. Be warned...The above image is *NOT* how the radar 'sees' the ship. What the radar has are the equivalent of V spikes on a graph, linear or 3D depending on the level of sophistication of the electronics. The above image is only to give the readers a better visualization of what a ship look like under these algorithms.

Now imagine several chaff blooms that totally electronically blanket what the missile sees...

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## Haanzo

gambit said:


> There are serious considerations in designing a high speed moving body, mainly it is about the body itself. A tube, which is what a missile really is, will undergo longitudinal stress upon any deviation in flight, the higher the speed plus the higher the rate of deviation, the more severe the stress. Avionics will also be affected, especially for the missile's radar antenna if it is gimbaled. All of this add up to a heavier and expensive missile.
> 
> Yes it will...Granted a ship cannot move as fast on sea surface as an aircraft in flight or even a wheeled vehicle on land, its size and its movement require the missile to have &#37;100 accuracy. Think about it for a moment...A building is relatively uniform in shape compared to a ship, which is always length dominant. If a bomb missed the building it will impact the ground and if the error distance is merely one meter, the explosion will do some severe damages to the building. *A missile is no different, it will have a descending flight to the ground, a building just happened to be in the way.
> *
> but brahmos is different it will not have a descending flight to the ground
> *Against a ship, however, the missile will dive into the water if it missed the ship, even by just one meter. If the missile is able to maneuver for another attempt, by now the ship will have its defensive measures in full deployment*
> i dont believe only one missile will be fired at a maneuverable target target
> , such as chaff blooms and flares, the odds for a miss dramatically increases as the missile must discriminate the ship from among these distractions. Another miss, even by just one meter, and the ship won the fight. If the ship is already alerted of the missile's approach, in about three seconds it can launch several chaff blooms that will create an electronic cloud several thousands square meters, enough to blanket the missile's radar view, and the ship is still moving behind this cover. Again, even if the error distance is merely one meter, the ship won the fight.
> 
> This is why anti-ship attacks fare better with low altitude cruise missiles than other tactics simply because of the 'a-ha' surprise factor that drastically compress the response time from the ship. Not guaranteed , just better odds of success.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are many attempts to increase the odds of success for an ASCM that remove the 'a-ha' factor from the equation. The above image is one such attempt. What the missile's radar could attempt to do is to take a 'fractal' radar image of a ship based upon its many segmented facets that a composite body has. A ship is a composite body with doors, stairs, windows, guns...etc...etc...That produces large variations of radar returns. But it is known that the largest facets are the ones near the center of the ship. Algorithms can be introduced into the avionics package to instruct the missile to home in on the greatest concentration of those large facets. Be warned...The above image is *NOT* how the radar 'sees' the ship. What the radar has are the equivalent of V spikes on a graph, linear or 3D depending on the level of sophistication of the electronics. The above image is only to give the readers a better visualization of what a ship look like under these algorithms.
> *
> Now imagine several chaff blooms that totally electronically blanket what the missile sees..*.
> what iff the missile in this case the brahmos which impacts the target from the side is instructed not to go above a certain height in the terminal phase lets say 3-4 meters ---- hence vertically it might not miss the target ---which in turn means better chances of sucess



but it was a nice post thank you


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## gambit

Haanzo said:


> but brahmos is different it will not have a descending flight to the ground


Yes it does...No matter how slight. Still...A miss at sea produces zero result while a miss on land can still produce some damages to the target. There is a chance the missile can acquire a different target on the other side of the first target.



Haanzo said:


> i dont believe only one missile will be fired at a maneuverable target target


It would be beneficial to increase the odds of success with multiple missiles. However, the question will be -- Where are your launch directions? If you launch from the same direction, your missiles will have little angular differences on how each sees the target area and ultimately the target itself. The greater the angular differences, meaning the further the distances between your launch positions, the greater the odds of each missile seeing a different view of the target, assuming there is only one target, hence more difficult for the target to deploy defensive measures effectively. Also, you should not launch at the same time. Chaff blooms and flares have finite airborne time. If all your missiles arrive at the target area at the same time while the area is electronically blanketed, odds are good or better than good that all of them will miss. This is why attacking a moving ship at sea, even a capital ship like an aircraft carrier, is not as easy as most people think.



Haanzo said:


> what iff the missile in this case the brahmos which impacts the target from the side is instructed not to go above a certain height in the terminal phase lets say 3-4 meters ---- hence vertically it might not miss the target ---which in turn means better chances of sucess


Three to four meters will place the missile within grasp of the sea...

Douglas Sea Scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look at the 'Wind Sea' chart for wave height. This is even more problematic than geography where land features are constant. Keep in mind that under combat conditions, ships are spread out and is on the move.

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## Arsalan

sancho said:


> That's not correct, the maximum instrumental range of Erieye is over 400Km, but for fighters, or cruise missiles it is less. As you can see in the picture the detection range for cruise missiles is less than 200 Km.
> 
> http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/7272/saab2000ig9.jpg



 
well here you go friend!!
in this same picture that you are using as your reference it is also stated that it have 360 degree coverage but you never seem to agree with thiss!!
now i am sorry to say this bro but donyt you think such actions speak out loud about your biasedness! i mean you take some of the points that can devalue the system while at the same time you keep on denying the credibility of the same source if it is claiming the PAF system to be a good!!
well dear i really am disappointed with such acts of yours,, 

regards!


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## Arsalan

well *Mr. Gambit *it really was nice piece of information provided by you. great work but it will be better if we can get back to topic. 
*Mr. Hanzoo*, you too kindly try to keep the brahmos out of this thread! you can find a better place to discuss it once it is realy operational.. 
this is not the right pace for this discussion!!

i hope you guys understand and agree!

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

OK!
back to J-10...here is some pics of J-10B


Now those are two ECM pods other than dummy missiles... 
A cross breed of F-16 and J-10  






> The 01/1031 prototype of the new J-10B was unveiled in March 2009, 3 months after its maiden flight in December 2008. This much improved variant features a DSI/bump engine inlet which not only cuts weight but also reduces RCS, after a similar design was first tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. The aircraft also features a J-11B style IRST/LR and a wide-angle holographic HUD. IRST enables passive detection of enemy aircraft, making J-10B more stealthy in combat. Its nose appears flatter too, similar to that of American F-16, and *radar is thought to be PESA which is still under development (of Russian origin?), the first of such type ever being developed for a Chinese fighter aircraft, giving J-10B a stronger multi-target engagement and ECCM capability. **Two large ECM pods are attached under the wings.* The tip of vertical tailfin was redesigned as well, featuring a large fairing containing communication and ECM antennas, which resembles that of French Mirage 2000. A rear facing MAWS sensor can be seen underneath the parachute boom. A similar system was tested onboard FC-1/JF-17 as well. All these improvements suggest that J-10B is equipped with a new generation of integrated electronic system, ranging from radar to EW system. The aircraft thus serves likely as a testbed for various advanced avionics onboard the 4th generation J-14 (see below). Its mission may be changed from air-superiority to multi-purpose, such as AG or EW. In addition, the aircarft is expected to be powered eventually by an indigenous WS-10A turbofan. Overall J-10B is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60
> Chinese Military Aviation



It looks like J-10B is tailored for SEAD/DEAD missions.Any comments


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## wild peace

we also want few of these birds (dalta wing) 
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac95/ISI_1990/Rafale/getData3.jpg
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac95/ISI_1990/Rafale/military01-800x600.jpg
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac95/ISI_1990/Rafale/6412_101010613245157_10000008655010.jpg
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac95/ISI_1990/Rafale/rafale1049.jpg
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac95/ISI_1990/Rafale/6412_101010036578548_10000008655010.jpg


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## PakShaheen79

wild peace said:


> we also want few of these birds (dalta wing)
> http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac95/ISI_1990/Rafale/getData3.jpg



These birds are busy currently in MMRCA of IAF. So keep your fingers cross after JF-17 and J-10B there is very few chances Pakistan will go for an Western fighter. To keep our operational cost down we need unified fighters not diversified.


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## SBD-3

wild peace said:


> we also want few of these birds (dalta wing)
> http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac95/ISI_1990/Rafale/getData3.jpg
> http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac95/ISI_1990/Rafale/military01-800x600.jpg
> http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac95/ISI_1990/Rafale/6412_101010613245157_10000008655010.jpg
> http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac95/ISI_1990/Rafale/rafale1049.jpg
> http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac95/ISI_1990/Rafale/6412_101010036578548_10000008655010.jpg


beautiful toy but i would rather prefer Girppen than Rafale


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> beautiful toy but i would rather prefer Girppen than Rafale



more more and more FC20,, thats what i prefer,,


regards!


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## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> more more and more FC20,, thats what i prefer,,
> 
> 
> regards!


 And I second that  Pakistan lack that kind of cash which required to have Rafale otherwise who don't want that thing in PAF or PN.


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## zavis2003

Haanzo said:


> but it was a nice post thank you



as what gambit told how RADAR sees A ship i want to share with u that its SAR and inverse SAR techniques through wigh we gets imagery of targets 
A Sythetic Aperture Radar (SAR) is an airborne system which utilizes the flight path of the aircraft to simulate an extremely large antenna or aperture electronically. Over time, individual transmit/receive cycles (PRT's) are completed with the data from each cycle being stored electronically. After a given number of cycles, the stored data is recombined (taking into account the Doppler effects inherent in the different transmitter to target geometry in each succeeding cycle) to create a high resolution picture of the terrain being over flown.

Using such a technique, radar designers are able to achieve resolutions which would require real aperture antennas so large as to be impractical with arrays ranging in size up to 10 m.

An Synthetic Aperture Radar was used on board of an Space Shuttle during the Shuttle Radar Topography Mission (SRTM).

SAR radar is partnered by what is termed Inverse SAR (abbreviated to ISAR) technology which in the broadest terms, utilizes the movement of the target rather than the emitter to create the synthetic aperture. ISAR radars have a significant role aboard maritime patrol aircraft to provide them with radar image of sufficient quality to allow it to be used for target recognition purposes.


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## zavis2003

gambit said:


> There are serious considerations in designing a high speed moving body, mainly it is about the body itself. A tube, which is what a missile really is, will undergo longitudinal stress upon any deviation in flight, the higher the speed plus the higher the rate of deviation, the more severe the stress. Avionics will also be affected, especially for the missile's radar antenna if it is gimbaled. All of this add up to a heavier and expensive missile.
> 
> Yes it will...Granted a ship cannot move as fast on sea surface as an aircraft in flight or even a wheeled vehicle on land, its size and its movement require the missile to have %100 accuracy. Think about it for a moment...A building is relatively uniform in shape compared to a ship, which is always length dominant. If a bomb missed the building it will impact the ground and if the error distance is merely one meter, the explosion will do some severe damages to the building. A missile is no different, it will have a descending flight to the ground, a building just happened to be in the way.
> 
> Against a ship, however, the missile will dive into the water if it missed the ship, even by just one meter. If the missile is able to maneuver for another attempt, by now the ship will have its defensive measures in full deployment, such as chaff blooms and flares, the odds for a miss dramatically increases as the missile must discriminate the ship from among these distractions. Another miss, even by just one meter, and the ship won the fight. If the ship is already alerted of the missile's approach, in about three seconds it can launch several chaff blooms that will create an electronic cloud several thousands square meters, enough to blanket the missile's radar view, and the ship is still moving behind this cover. Again, even if the error distance is merely one meter, the ship won the fight.
> 
> This is why anti-ship attacks fare better with low altitude cruise missiles than other tactics simply because of the 'a-ha' surprise factor that drastically compress the response time from the ship. Not guaranteed , just better odds of success.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are many attempts to increase the odds of success for an ASCM that remove the 'a-ha' factor from the equation. The above image is one such attempt. What the missile's radar could attempt to do is to take a 'fractal' radar image of a ship based upon its many segmented facets that a composite body has. A ship is a composite body with doors, stairs, windows, guns...etc...etc...That produces large variations of radar returns. But it is known that the largest facets are the ones near the center of the ship. Algorithms can be introduced into the avionics package to instruct the missile to home in on the greatest concentration of those large facets. Be warned...The above image is *NOT* how the radar 'sees' the ship. What the radar has are the equivalent of V spikes on a graph, linear or 3D depending on the level of sophistication of the electronics. The above image is only to give the readers a better visualization of what a ship look like under these algorithms.
> 
> Now imagine several chaff blooms that totally electronically blanket what the missile sees...





*how radar makes the image of ship a totally technical approach*




http://www.radartutorial.eu/20.airborne/pic/aperture.jpg

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## zavis2003

this is synthetic aperture radar

*every complex thing is made by so many simple things *

look at above ship imagery here guys PRT1 2 3 4 etc all adds on and every point has influence by previous valueand thats the theory to make SAR just that simple idea of imagery

i thin it woulld be a good knowledge for GAMBIT and ur disscussions about imagery of ships targeting with radars

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## wild peace

arsalanaslam123 said:


> more more and more FC20,, thats what i prefer,,
> 
> 
> regards!



It carries a lot more weight then JF ....having 14 hard points then JF's 7 at the momment may be near future it is 9. and so ......

....I said we want few for our indigenous infant industry..

other About JF17 and Fc20 InshaAllah They are ours and no body except God has a power to change this.....

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## wild peace

1.0 Introduction
http://www.f-22raptor.com/pix/photos/radar/gal_146_b_1.jpg
The F/A-22's avionics and software system is the most advanced ever integrated into an aircraft. It is the first aircraft to use integrated avionics, where the weapons management system, electronic warfare system and the AN/APG-77 radar work as one, giving the pilot unprecedented situation awareness.

A joint venture of Northrop Grumman's Electronic Sensors and Systems Division (ESSD) and Raytheon is developing the advanced AN/APG-77 active-element electronically scanned array radar for the F/A-22.


2.0 Capabilities
The AN/APG-77 radar is designed for air-superiority and strike operations and features a low observable, active aperture, electronically-scanned array with multi-target, all-weather capability.

http://www.f-22raptor.com/pix/illustrations/af_radar_bvr.gif

The radar is key to the F/A-22's integrated avionics and sensor capabilities. It will provide pilots with detailed information about multiple threats before the adversary's radar ever detects
:: Beyond Visual Range attack, executed by 2 F/A-22's
the F/A-22. This is also called BVR, or Beyond Visual Range capability.

It will give an F/A-22 pilot the possibility in air-to-air combat, to track, target and shoot at multiple threat aircraft before the adversary's radar ever detects the F/A-22.


3.0 Technology
The F/A-22's AN/APG-77 radar is an active-element, electronically scanned (that is, it does not move) array of around 2000 finger-sized transmitter / receiver modules. Each module weights ca 15g and has a poweroutput of over 4W. The APG-77 is capable of changing the direction, power and shape of the radar beam very rapidly, so it can acquire target data, and in the meantime minimizing the chance that the radar signal is detected or tracked.
http://www.f-22raptor.com/pix/illustrations/af_radar_capabilities.gif

:: Multiple function performance of the AN/APG-77 radar system, varying from simple area sweeps to tracking and missile fire control, all at the same time.

Most of the mechanical parts common to other radars have been eliminated, thus making the radar more reliable.This type of antenna, which is integrated both physically and electromagnetically with the airframe, provides the frequency agility, low radar cross-section, and wide bandwidth necessary to support the F/A-22's air dominance mission.

One requirement that drove all of the ATF designs was a wide field of regard for sensors, enabling the Raptor to acquire and track multiple targets beyond visual range. The requirement called for a 120-degree radar field of regard on each side of the nose.

A forward-looking infrared search and track capability was also desired. Lockheed approached the field-of-regard requirement for the radar with three radar arrays placed in the nose of the aircraft (one facing forward and two facing sideways). Each wing root carried an infrared search and track system that operated through faceted windows.


4.0 Radar Software
The avionics software is to be integrated in three blocks, each building on the capability of the previous block. Block 1 is primarily radar capability, but Block 1 does contain more than 50 percent of the avionics suite's full functionality source lines of code (SLOC) and provides end-to-end capability for the sensor-to-pilot data flow

This Block 1 software enables the basic operation of the radar and its initial mode complement, including the simultaneous operation of search and track modes and systems health and maintenance or built-in-test modes. For more information on the F/A-22 software in general, click here.

At the Boeing Avionics Integration Laboratory the F/A-22 radar was integrated with the avionics mission software and other aircraft avionics sensors such as the electronic warfare system, and the communications, navigation and information systems.


5.0 Testing
By the first quarter of 1998, the radar was delivered to The Boeing Company's F/A-22 Avionics Integration Laboratory in Seattle, Wash., where engineers integrated the radar with other F/A-22 avionics.

Meanwhile, flight testing of a second F/A-22 radar continued aboard a modified Boeing 757 testbed aircraft at ESSD. The test bed consistsed of an F/A-22 forward fuselage installed on the 757's forward pressure bulkhead. Electronic warfare (EW) and communication, navigation and identification (CNI) sensors were mounted directly on the sensor wing, which was designed to simulate the sensor positioning found on the F/A-22's wings.

:: Clearly visible on the testbed are the F/A-22 nose-cone (radome), the wing on top and various sensors on the bottom of the plane.

The cabin had space for 30 software engineers and technicians who could evaluate avionics and identify anomalies, in real time. A simulated F/A-22 cockpit was installed in the cabin of the Flying Test Bed. It had all primary and secondary F/A-22 displays, as well as the throttle and stick.

The conducted flight tests successfully demonstrated the expected levels of performance of the F/A-22 radar, including basic search and track functions.


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## Arsalan

wild peace said:


> It carries a lot more weight then JF ....having 14 hard points then JF's 7 at the momment may be near future it is 9. and so ......
> 
> ....I said we want few for our indigenous infant industry..
> 
> other About JF17 and Fc20 InshaAllah They are ours and no body except God has a power to change this.....



well i gues PakSaheen answered you perfectly.
ofcourse we woul love to see them in PAF colors, no objections!! but the thing is that can we get them. it is not only about getting two or three squadrons, the thing is can we handel them, yes, but what will the costs of doing so?
what will be the effect of using billions in getting them on our JF17 and FC20 programmes?
are the FC20 really so bad that we cannot get any good from them and so we are in desperate need of this multi million deal?
is the future of JF 17 so doomed that we must cancel future development of the project and immediately switch to new option?

well i agree the idea of getting them in small number and keep going with Jf17 and FC20 projects sounds facinating but you can not negelect its effects on future of these projects!! 

i hope you understand!

regards!

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## PakShaheen79

@wild peace

Why you posted F-22 article here. What you want to say?

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## gambit

zavis2003 said:


> as what gambit told how RADAR sees A ship i want to share with u that its SAR and inverse SAR techniques through wigh we gets imagery of targets
> A Sythetic Aperture Radar (SAR) is an airborne system which utilizes the flight path of the aircraft to simulate an extremely large antenna or aperture electronically. Over time, individual transmit/receive cycles (PRT's) are completed with the data from each cycle being stored electronically. After a given number of cycles, the stored data is recombined (taking into account the Doppler effects inherent in the different transmitter to target geometry in each succeeding cycle) to create a high resolution picture of the terrain being over flown.
> 
> Using such a technique, radar designers are able to achieve resolutions which would require real aperture antennas so large as to be impractical with arrays ranging in size up to 10 m.
> 
> An Synthetic Aperture Radar was used on board of an Space Shuttle during the Shuttle Radar Topography Mission (SRTM).
> 
> SAR radar is partnered by what is termed Inverse SAR (abbreviated to ISAR) technology which in the broadest terms, utilizes the movement of the target rather than the emitter to create the synthetic aperture. ISAR radars have a significant role aboard maritime patrol aircraft to provide them with radar image of sufficient quality to allow it to be used for target recognition purposes.


I will explain SAR in a perspective that us *GUYS* can understand...It worked in class before...

Suppose you are photographing a beautiful and *NUDE* woman, say for Playboy magazine. You have a special camera that does not capture images on chemical film but in an electronic format. This camera has a viewing aperature of 3 meters. After one shot, you take a sidestep, your span is also 3 meters, then you take another shot. At this point this special camera append the aperature of the second shot to the aperature of the first shot to create a virtual aperature of 6 meters. Physical aperature is 3 meters versus virtual aperature of 6 meters. You also have a new angle of the model which include new details about her body that usually interests us guys. As you continue to sidestep and take a shot with each pause, this special camera continue to append the new position's physical aperature to the virtual aperature that is still in memory. So after ten steps, you have a virtual aperature of 30 meters plus increasing details on the model, assuming you are circling the target, of course.

Obviously memory size of the SAR computer is extremely important as each position change increases target details. Ground targets produces the most as the Earth itself such as hills and rivers will return information along with the building that is the desired target. The target itself could be bland from one angle and all of a sudden produces complex echoes from many shapes and different surfaces. Sort of like the nude woman's back versus her much more interesting front side, natch? The high resolution image from a SAR system does not necessarily come from a 'per pulse' operation but from a composition of many pulses as the platform travels. So if you have short term memory issues, then what good are you? Limited memory capacity is the equivalent of having short term memory problem in humans as echoes from later pulses can force the system to erase any information from earlier pulses. Precisely because target information is unpredictable from point to point as the SAR system is in motion, many SAR systems will stop transmission after X distance traveled and proceed to process the returns from these many points. More sophisticated systems will have this procedure done faster than lesser capable systems.

Inverse SAR (iSAR) is like having you, the perving photographer, stand still while the nude woman model rotate or move in a way that would allow her different features to be photographed.

From pulse to pulse, that is from point to point as the SAR system travels, unexpected atmospheric phenomenon can interfere with the entire operation. The fancy phrase here is 'inhomogeneous medium' and anomalous propagation is the consequence...

WHAT ARE ANOMALOUS PROPAGATION AND FALSE ECHOS?


> WHAT ARE ANOMALOUS PROPAGATION
> AND FALSE ECHOS?
> 
> In cases where the index of refraction is unusual, AP is much more likely to show on radar. In extreme cases, the air near the ground may be so cold and dense that a radar beam that starts out moving upward is bent all the way down to the ground. This produces strong echoes at large distances from the radar.


Processing power and memory capacity in the SAR computer directly affect the quality of the final image so the more sophisticated SAR system will be abler to compensate for these unpredictable and uncontrollable events. The word 'compensate' here can be a bit misleading as the degraded or false echoes must be received as they are. They cannot be passed through filters as they are, in a manner of speaking, legitimate echoes that came from an atmospheric phenomenon. They are 'compensated' in the sense that hopefully subsequent transmissions will produce better target echos that the SAR computer can use to eliminate the degraded echoes.

What we have talked about so far is called 'spotlight' SAR...And there is 'stripmap' SAR...

Glossary of remote sensing terms


> Compared to conventional *SAR strip mapping mode*, which assumes a fixed pointing direction of the radar antenna broadside to the platform track, *Spotlight SAR* is capable of extending the high-resolution SAR imaging capability significantly. This is achieved by keeping a target within the spotlight illumination of the radar beam for a longer time through electronic beam steering, resulting in a longer synthetic aperture which leads, in turn, to increased azimuth resolution (graphic 1).


Stripmap SAR basically just point the pulses at no target and process all returns, resulting in a band of electronic information. The beam is broad in stripmap and narrow in spotlight. This is just very basic information on SAR.

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## urglyfly

Maybe i can try to translate this sentense for you :
To me 
This is so hard to read in english


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## Arsalan

urglyfly said:


> Maybe i can try to translate this sentense for you :
> To me
> This is so hard to read in english



???
what are you taliking about??
have you posted it on this thread by mistake or have i missed somthing??

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

gambit
Excellent... Can you please clear difference working of AESA, PESA and MESA radars with little explanation in simplified English? Thanks in Advance,.


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## wild peace

PakShaheen79 said:


> @wild peace
> 
> Why you posted F-22 article here. What you want to say?



Sorry to answer so late because I was in faisalabad to spend eid holiday in my SUSRAL  .

I am sorry this is a mistake but you know F22 is for sale......


Eid mubarak for all of you


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## PakShaheen79

^ Lol who told you that it is for sale...


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## Arsalan

Mr. wild peace i hopr it is not for sale near novelty pull Faisalabad,,,
BTW i am also from faisalabad,,,,

niec to know about you,

regards!


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## gambit

PakShaheen79 said:


> gambit
> Excellent... Can you please clear difference working of AESA, PESA and MESA radars with little explanation in simplified English? Thanks in Advance,.


Sure. For now...Assume all transmit/receive (TR) modules to be the same in quality and quantity in an array for ease of discussion.

Superposition of Waves

Understanding of the wave superposition principle is crucial to understanding basic ESA operation. Remember that each module can transmit and receive, effectively making each module a miniature radar antenna, just so happen that we hobbled together a bunch of them to take advantage of the wave superposition principle.

A Passive ESA antenna will have all T/R modules under a unified controlled operation, meaning all modules will have the same phasing, just different power output for beam forming and steerage. Passive ESA operation is the simplest and first evolution of Elect. Scan Array system.

An Active ESA antenna will have all T/R modules under selective controlled operation, meaning if there is an appropriate hardware and software combination, the radar computer will be able to not only control power output but also phase changes per *INDIVIDUAL* module. So if there are 100 T/R modules in an array, theoretically it is possible to have 100 individual radar operations *AT DIFFERENT TIMES* if desired, but nothing useful would be gained from this since each module's individual power output is too small. A Passive ESA antenna cannot do this, either none or all 100 modules work together at the same time. So an Active ESA can act like a Passive ESA but not vice versa.

A very appropriate analogy is your typical shower head in your home's bathroom. Now imagine that it is possible to control the power (pressure) output of individual holes. Now imagine that it is possible to control each hole's direction. Now imagine that is is possible to group some holes to pulsate, some holes in another group for wide area spray, and finally each group can be independently steer to any direction desired.

There is a difference between an array and an antenna. An array is a group of T/R modules. An antenna is the physical structure that contain the array. Dimension wise, the antenna usually larger than the array. It must be so because there has to be a definitive spacing arrangement between individual T/R modules.

Multi-band wide-angle scan phased array antenna with novel grating lobe suppression - US Patent 7034753 Description


> *Array element spacing* is related to the operating wavelength and it sets the scan performance of the array.



There is a process called 'subarray partitioning' and it is possible only with AESA system. This process can create multiple smaller arrays -- subarrays -- inside the main array just like the fantasy shower head with multiple independently controlled water holes.

The current American AESA installed in the F-22 and F-35 can turn from one large array into nine smaller arrays for multiple purposes. This is what is conveniently labeled as Multi-role ESA (MESA). Only an AESA system can be a true multi-role (mESA) radar system.

Non-AESA radars can perform different operations such Track-while-Scan (TwS). But what actually happened is that the radar in scan mode picked up an echo that is above clutter (junk) threshold, it record in memory the approximate (guess) location of the target, then it continue to scan past the target. On the next scan (sweep) cycle, as the antenna's movement approaches the supposedly location of the target that is in memory from the previous scan cycle, the radar computer command the main beam to switch from the current freq to a higher one, thereby increasing target details, and if the target is still there, its new location and details are updated. So while we call this Track-while-Scan, it is not true TwS as all we are doing is guesses where the target should be and hope that we will find it again on the next scan cycle based upon information from the previous scan cycle. Scan or sweep mean the same. If the target disappeared on the new scan cycle, less capable radar system will dismiss that target to be an anomaly. This is what Very Low Obserable, aka 'stealth', aircrafts are supposed to create -- ambiguities -- from one scan cycle to the next.

Keep in mind that every radar antenna, no matter what kind, has a main beam. Same for an array that it also has a main beam. So if we can create multiple arrays *INSIDE* a single antenna, then we have multiple main beams. Therefore it is only with an AESA system that can create subarrays that we can have a true mESA radar system. Upon detecting a target, we can divide the main array into two arrays, one array continue to do volume search and the other array to keep watch on the target with a 'spotlight' or 'boresight' main beam. Two main beams doing two different tasks *AT THE SAME TIME*. Not only that, the previously mentioned Track-while-Scan (TwS) action can be done by the AESA subarray. In other words, if the main array can pseudo-TwS ten targets, for example, so can a subarray perform that same pseudo-TwS action.

Try to imagine this...With the main array, we detected thirty targets with varying distances from us. We then partitioned the main array into nine subarrays. We keep one beam to continue volume search of the area. We focus another beam on the closest target, presumably the most imminent threat, and this would be a true Track-while-Scan (TwS) operation. We focus another beam to perform pseudo-TwS on ten targets, the next group of threats down the list. Further are ten more targets heading away from us at an angle so we focus another beam to perform pseudo-TwS operation on them. That is four out of nine beams used and we still have five more beams available. We decide to focus one beam on the ground to keep track of friendly forces. Five beams used and four more beams, or subarrays, to go. We then turn one of the remaining four subarrays into a data relay for all friendly forces int the area. That leave three subarrays remaining. We can turn one of these into an interrogator (IFF). Now we have two remaining subarrays. We can turn these two remaining subarrays into a larger array to perform volume search in another direction. This is a *TRUE* mESA system.

The caveat here is the software so even if the hardware is capable of turning the main array into several subarrays, if the choreography software is not there, we have not even the basic AESA system. Earlier I said to assume all T/R modules are of the same quality and quantity. Now if the quality of the T/R modules from one manufacturor is not as high as another manufacturor's, then there will be serious performance differences between systems that no softwares can compensate.

Clear as mud?

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## zavis2003

The AESA includes multiple individual active transmit/receive (T/R) elements within the
antenna. Depending upon the precise implementation, there may be anywhere between 1000
and 2000 of these individual T/R elements which, together with the RF feed, comprise the
AESA antenna. As for the passive ESA, these elements are highly redundant and the radar
can continue to operate with a sizeable percentage of the devices inoperative. This graceful
redundancy feature means that the radar antenna is extremely reliable; it has been claimed
that an AESA antenna will outlast the host aircraft.


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## wild peace

PakShaheen79 said:


> ^ Lol who told you that it is for sale...



I quote this before in the different thread but for you I post it again.

Senate panel agrees to open door to possible F-22 exports

The Senate Appropriations Committee voted unanimously Thursday to approve an fiscal 2010 Defense spending bill that would allow the Defense Department to develop an export version of the radar-evading F-22 Raptor fighter jet.While the committee bill, if enacted, would not repeal a decade-old law prohibiting foreign sales of the stealthy fighter, it would mark a significant step forward in opening up the Lockheed Martin Corp. jet to U.S. allies just as the plane's domestic production lines are winding down."It's a good next step," a Senate aide said of the F-22 provision in the $636.3 billion spending bill.

For years, lawmakers in both chambers have thwarted any effort to sell the F-22 overseas, arguing that exporting the advanced technologies in the fighter jet would pose a significant security risk. But proponents of exporting the plane argue that selling an export model of the F-22, stripped of secret U.S. technologies, would eliminate that risk.House lawmakers approved a floor amendment to the fiscal 2007 Defense appropriations bill that would lift the ban. But export opponents in the House and Senate eliminated that provision during conference negotiations on the bill.

The Senate's language in the fiscal 2010 bill will likely meet stiff resistance from House appropriators -- especially Appropriations Committee Chairman David Obey, D-Wis., author of the 1998 ban on F-22 exports -- who continue to be concerned about the security implications of selling the F-22 abroad.While the Senate bill maintains the export ban, it says the Defense Department "may conduct or participate in studies, research, design and other activities to define and develop an export version of the F-22A." The committee report accompanying the bill encourages the Air Force to use F-22 research and development funds to begin work on an export version of the fighter.The House bill, which was approved in July, continues the ban and does not open the door to developing an exportable version of the fighter.

But the political landscape could be shifting a bit as domestic production of the F-22 comes to an end -- a development the program's supporters in Congress fear will lead to thousands of aerospace jobs lost in dozens of states.Both the House and Senate already have approved versions of the fiscal 2010 defense authorization bill with language demanding the Pentagon report to Congress on the costs of developing an exportable version of the F-22 and any potential strategic implications.Japan is considered the most likely customer for the F-22, particularly as North Korea continues its ballistic missile testing. South Korea, Australia and Israel have also have expressed interest in buying the plane despite a price tag that could top $150 million a jet.

The Senate is expected to take up the $636.3 billion Defense appropriations bill later this month.Senate Appropriations Committee ranking member Thad Cochran, R-Miss., said Thursday that his goal is to wrap up conference negotiations with the House and send the bill to the president's desk by Oct. 1,


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## Arsalan

well if the deal ever materialize it will be only for countries like Israel and perhaps japan. US wont have a problem giving it to australians but they are now going with F35 so very unlikely to see an F22 with them. however if it really happens, that is if the F22 is actually saled to anyother nation it would be a downgraded version for sure. US have a policy determining a certain degree of stealth that it wold sale to other countries!!

regards!


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## wild peace

AESA

An Active Electronically Steered Array (AESA) takes the concept of using an array antenna a step further. Instead of shifting the phase of signals from a single high power transmitter AESA employs a grid of hundreds of small "transmitter-receiver (TR)" modules that are linked together by high-speed processors.

Each TR module has its own transmitter, receiver, processing power, and a small spikelike radiator antenna on top. The TR module can be programmed to act as a transmitter, receiver, or radar. The TR modules in the AESA system can all work together to create a powerful radar, but they can do different tasks in parallel, with some operating together as a radar warning receiver, others operating together as a jammer, and the rest operating as a radar. TR modules can be reassigned to any role, with output power or receiver sensitivity of any one of the "subsystems" defined by such temporary associations proportional to the number of modules.

AESA provides 10-30 times more net radar capability plus significant advantages in the areas of range resolution, countermeasure resistance and flexibility. In addition, it supports high reliability / low maintenance goals, which translate into lower lifecycle costs. Since the power supplies, final power amplification and input receive amplification, are distributed, MTBF is significantly higher, 10-100 times, than that of a passive ESA or mechanical array. This results in higher system readiness and significant savings in terms of life cycle cost of a weapon system, especially a fighter.

The use of multiple TR modules also means failure of up to 10&#37; of the TR modules in an AESA will not cause the loss of the antenna function, but merely degrade its performance. From a reliability and support perspective, this graceful degradation effect is invaluable. A radar which has lost several TR modules can continue to be operated until scheduled downtime is organized to swap the antenna. 
Google Image Result for http://pvo.guns.ru/images/other/usa/thaad/lmco/thaad_radar_hi.jpg


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## wild peace

MEAS

MESA builds on the company's expertise acquired from the AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) to bring military airborne surveillance capabilities to mid-size Boeing 737 aircraft. MESA enables sophisticated air-to-air and maritime coverage and integrated identification of friend-or-foe systems.

Advances in technology have caused a revolution in the capabilities and flexibility of airborne surveillance systems and sensors used in Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) systems. Developments in distributed transmitters, commercial off-the-shelf processing and high-performance antenna arrays have enabled ES multirole electronically scanned array (MESA) radar to be cost effectively applied to the next generation Boeing 737-700 series aircraft. The MESA radar provides air-to-air coverage, air-to-surface coverage, integrated identification friend or foe, special track beams and focused sector operation.

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## wild peace

*Diferences between PESA and AESA *

There are fundamental differences in potential that are related directly to the design diferences between PESA and AESA that will always exist.

As far as beam agilty (steering), they are fairly similar, since both types are electronically steered. PESA radars use TWT tubes, which means that the frequencies are fixed. AESA elements are frequency agile, which makes jamming a lot more difficult, because each element can Tx/Rx indepedently. In a jamming environment, only a small percentage of the AESA elements are affected, and they can just switch to a clear frequency. Saturate a TWT tube, and the display goes white until the range gets close enough for the radar to burn through the jamming signal.

LPI- each element of an AESA radar can be adjusted wrt when and how and it is transmitting. So you have 1500+ elements that can transmit at different frequencies and power levels, pulse forms, PRF, each element individually operating below the threshold of the opponent's RWR set and jumping around in an unpredictable fashion. The computer then combines these returns for the overall target picture. So the opponents RWR may only see 3 or 4 watts of power, and only for a very brief instant, compared to the kilowatts that the passive array is cranking out on a fixed frequency. The AESA is not putting out enough energy for passive detection. The oponent may think there's something out there, but he will not know what or where, if it's a false alarm, etc. In the meantime, the Raptor already has him targeted.

Graceful degradation- A TWT tube gets weaker with age. This affects the performance of the entire system. AESA elements have their own T/R built in- individual elements can fail without significantly affecting the peformance of the system. This directly affects reliability- a single TWT failure on a PESA radar renders it inoperable until it s replaced, and TWT tubes have low MTBF rates. You will have something like 150-200 hours for the TWT tube vs. 1500-2000 hours for the AESA. The AESA antennas are so reliable that they are built as completely sealed LRU's. A couple power connectors and coolant lines, you can literally swap out the antenna in minutes. Disadvantage is that the MMIC's generate heat, and like all electronics, they work better when cool. So the AESA set requires active cooling.

Versatility- The PESA radar can operate only on as many frequencies as it has TWT tubes, and as you add tubes, weight and complexity goes up, and reliability goes down. So you can have L-band search and X-band tracking/targeting at the same time by using part of the antenna for each function, but that's about as far as it goes. The AESA can do these functions, plus SAR imaging, communications, IFF, passive scanning, jamming, RWR, etc.- all simultaneously. It can train multiple beams at different targets, each one doing something different, to a much greater extent than any PESA set wil ever be capable of doing.

There's no question that the future lies with AESA. Every radar house in the world is working frantically to catch up. AMSAR, RBE-2 Active, NIIR, etc. The French and Israelis have sets, either in testing or on the market, using US MMIC's. Russia doesn't have the capability for mass-producing the modules as yet, but given the money, they could build it. Anyone can build a laboratory set, but consider that the JSF program alone will require over 2,000,000 modules, and you can see that mass-production is necessary for any practical application.

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## PakShaheen79

gambit & Wild peace
----------------------

Special thanks of both you. 

Now it is indeed clear like mud that PAF wanted new FC-20 with AESA.


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## adnan1479

we should have had a different thread for radar - - - -


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## PakShaheen79

adnan1479 said:


> we should have had a different thread for radar - - - -



  After reading so detailed post by Sir Gambit and Wild Peace I think you are right.


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## wangrong



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## PakShaheen79

I think it is SD-10 with C-701 in model above.


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## Kompromat

US must have something else in Mind .. they are Smart Kids .


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## wild peace

PakShaheen79 said:


> After reading so detailed post by Sir Gambit and Wild Peace I think you are right.


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## Myth_buster_1

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think it is SD-10 with C-701 in model above.



Not SD-10.... more like PL-11


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## wild peace

*Pls every one explain stealth aircraft principle,and with what type of changes we make our exsiting or comming batches stealthier........*

Stealth technology also known as* LOT* (Low Observability Technology) is a sub-discipline of military electronic countermeasures which covers a range of techniques used with aircraft, ships and missiles, in order to make them less visible (ideally invisible) to radar, infrared and other detection methods.

The concept of stealth is not new: being able to operate without the knowledge of the enemy has always been a goal of military technology and techniques. However, as the potency of detection and interception technologies (radar, IRST, surface-to-air missiles etc.) has increased, so too has the extent to which the design and operation of military vehicles have been affected in response. A 'stealth' vehicle will generally have been designed from the outset to have reduced or controlled signature. It is possible to have varying degrees of stealth. The exact level and nature of stealth embodied in a particular design is determined by the prediction of likely threat capabilities and the balance of other considerations, including the raw unit cost of the system.







A mission system employing stealth may well become detected at some point within a given mission, such as when the target is destroyed, but correct use of stealth systems should seek to minimize the possibility of detection. Attacking with surprise gives the attacker more time to perform its mission and exit before the defending force can counter-attack. If a surface-to-air missile battery defending a target observes a bomb falling and surmises that there must be a stealth aircraft in the vicinity, for example, it is still unable to respond if it cannot get a lock on the aircraft in order to feed guidance information to its missiles.

Stealth principles
Stealth technology (often referred to as "LO", for "low observability") is not a single technology but is a combination of technologies that attempt to greatly reduce the distances at which a vehicle can be detected; in particular radar cross section reductions, but also acoustic, thermal and other aspects specifically:

Radar cross-section (RCS) reductions
Main article: Radar cross section
Almost since the invention of radar, various techniques have been tried to minimize detection. Rapid development of radar during WWII led to equally rapid development of numerous counter radar measures during the period; a notable example of this was the use of chaff.

The term 'Stealth' in reference to reduced radar signature aircraft became popular during the late eighties when the F-117 stealth fighter became widely known. The first large scale (and public) use of the F-117 was during the Gulf War in 1991. However, F-117A stealth fighters were used for the first time in combat during Operation Just Cause, the United States invasion of Panama in 1989. Since then it has become less effective due to developments in the algorithms used to process the data received by radars, such as Bayesian particle filter methods. Increased awareness of stealth vehicles and the technologies behind them is prompting the development of techniques for detecting stealth vehicles, such as passive radar arrays and low-frequency radars. Many countries nevertheless continue to develop low-RCS vehicles because low RCS still offers advantages in detection range reduction as well as increasing the effectiveness of decoys against radar-seeking threats.






Vehicle shape
The possibility of designing aircraft in such a manner as to reduce their radar cross-section was recognized in the late 1930s, when the first radar tracking systems were employed, and it has been known since at least the 1960s that aircraft shape makes a very significant difference in how well an aircraft can be detected by a radar. The Avro Vulcan, a British bomber of the 1960s, had a remarkably small appearance on radar despite its large size, and occasionally disappeared from radar screens entirely. It is now known that it had a fortuitously stealthy shape apart from the vertical element of the tail. On the other hand, the Tupolev 95 Russian long range bomber (NATO reporting name 'Bear') appeared especially well on radar. It is now known that propellers and jet turbine blades produce a bright radar image; the Bear had four pairs of large (5.6 meter diameter) contra-rotating propellers.

Another important factor is the internal construction. Behind the skin of some aircraft are structures known as re-entrant triangles. Radar waves penetrating the skin of the aircraft get trapped in these structures, bouncing off the internal faces and losing energy. This approach was first used on SR-71.

The most efficient way to reflect radar waves back to the transmitting radar is with orthogonal metal plates, forming a corner reflector consisting of either a dihedral (two plates) or a trihedral (three orthogonal plates). This configuration occurs in the tail of a conventional aircraft, where the vertical and horizontal components of the tail are set at right angles. Stealth aircraft such as the F-117 use a different arrangement, tilting the tail surfaces to reduce corner reflections formed between them. The most radical approach is to eliminate the tail completely, as in the B-2 Spirit.






In addition to altering the tail, stealth design must bury the engines within the wing or fuselage, or in some cases where stealth is applied to an existing aircraft, install baffles in the air intakes, so that the turbine blades are not visible to radar. A stealthy shape must be devoid of complex bumps or protrusions of any kind; meaning that weapons, fuel tanks, and other stores must not be carried externally. Any stealthy vehicle becomes un-stealthy when a door or hatch is opened.

Planform alignment is also often used in stealth designs. Planform alignment involves using a small number of surface orientations in the shape of the structure. For example, on the F-22A Raptor, the leading edges of the wing and the tail surfaces are set at the same angle. Careful inspection shows that many small structures, such as the air intake bypass doors and the air refueling aperture, also use the same angles. The effect of planform alignment is to return a radar signal in a very specific direction away from the radar emitter rather than returning a diffuse signal detectable at many angles.

Stealth airframes sometimes display distinctive serrations on some exposed edges, such as the engine ports. The YF-23 has such serrations on the exhaust ports. This is another example in the use of re-entrant triangles and planform alignment, this time on the external airframe.

Shaping requirements have strong negative influence on the aircraft's aerodynamic properties. The F-117 has poor aerodynamics, is inherently unstable, and cannot be flown without computer assistance. Some modern anti-stealth radars target the trail of turbulent air behind it instead, much like civilian wind shear detecting radars do.

Ships have also adopted similar techniques. The Visby corvette was the first stealth ship to enter service, though the earlier Arleigh Burke class destroyer incorporated some signature-reduction features . Other examples are the French La Fayette class frigate, the USS San Antonio amphibious transport dock, and most modern warship designs.

*Propulsion subsystem shaping*
Now in research, fluidic nozzles for thrust vectoring with aircraft jet engines, and ships, will have lower RCS, due to being less complex, mechanically simpler, with no moving parts or surfaces, and less massive (up to 50% less). They will likely be used in many unmanned aircraft, and 6th generation fighter aircraft. Fluidic nozzles divert thrust via fluid effects. Tests show that air forced into a jet engine exhaust stream can deflect thrust up to 15 degrees.
*
Non-metallic airframe*
Dielectric composites are relatively transparent to radar, whereas electrically conductive materials such as metals and carbon fibers reflect electromagnetic energy incident on the material's surface. Composites used may contain ferrites to optimize the dielectric and magnetic properties of the material for its application.

*Radar absorbing material*
Radar absorbent material (RAM), often as paints, are used especially on the edges of metal surfaces. One such coating, also called iron ball paint, contains tiny spheres coated with carbonyl iron ferrite. Radar waves induce alternating magnetic field in this material, which leads to conversion of their energy into heat. Early versions of F-117A planes were covered with neoprene-like tiles with ferrite grains embedded in the polymer matrix, current models have RAM paint applied directly. The paint must be applied by robots because of problems of solvent toxicity and tight tolerances on layer thickness.

Similarly, coating the cockpit canopy with a thin film transparent conductor (vapor-deposited gold or indium tin oxide) helps to reduce the aircraft's radar profile because radar waves would normally enter the cockpit, bounce off something random (the inside of the cockpit has a complex shape), and possibly return to the radar, but the conductive coating creates a controlled shape that deflects the incoming radar waves away from the radar. The coating is thin enough that it has no adverse effect on the pilot's vision.

Radar stealth countermeasures and limitations

*Low frequency radar*
Shaping does not offer stealth advantages against low-frequency radar. If the radar wavelength is roughly twice the size of the target, a half-wave resonance effect can still generate a significant return. However, low-frequency radar is limited by lack of available frequencies which are heavily used by other systems, lack of accuracy given the long wavelength, and by the radar's size, making it difficult to transport. A long-wave radar may detect a target and roughly locate it, but not identify it, and the location information lacks sufficient weapon targeting accuracy. Noise poses another problem, but that can be efficiently addressed using modern computer technology; Chinese "Nantsin" radar and many older Soviet-made long-range radars were modified this way. It has been said that "there's nothing invisible in the radar frequency range below 2 GHz".
*Multiple transmitters*
Much of the stealth comes from reflecting the transmissions in a different direction other than a direct return. Therefore detection can be better achieved if the sources are spaced from the receivers, known as bistatic radar , and proposals exist to use reflections from sources such as civilian radio transmitters, including cellular telephone radio towers.

*Acoustics*
Acoustic stealth plays a primary role in submarine stealth as well as for ground vehicles. Submarines have extensive usage of rubber mountings to isolate and avoid mechanical noises that could reveal locations to underwater passive sonar arrays.

Early stealth observation aircraft used slow-turning propellers to avoid being heard by enemy troops below. Stealth aircraft that stay subsonic can avoid being tracked by sonic boom. The presence of supersonic and jet-powered stealth aircraft such as the SR-71 Blackbird indicates that acoustic signature is not always a major driver in aircraft design, although the Blackbird relied more on its extremely high speed and altitude.

*Visibility*
Most stealth aircraft use matte paint and dark colors, and operate only at night. Lately, interest on daylight Stealth (especially by the USAF) has emphasized the use of gray paint in disruptive schemes, and it is assumed that Yehudi lights could be used in the future to mask shadows in the airframe (in daylight, against the clear background of the sky, dark tones are easier to detect than light ones) or as a sort of active camouflage. The B-2 has wing tanks for a contrail-inhibiting chemical, alleged by some to be chlorofluorosulphonic acid, and mission planning also considers altitudes where the probability of their formation is minimized.

*Infrared*
An exhaust plume contributes a significant infrared (IR) signature. One means of reducing the IR signature is to have a non-circular tail pipe (a slit shape) in order to minimize the exhaust cross-sectional volume and maximize the mixing of the hot exhaust with cool ambient air. Often, cool air is deliberately injected into the exhaust flow to boost this process. Sometimes, the jet exhaust is vented above the wing surface in order to shield it from observers below, as in the B-2 Spirit, and the unstealthy A-10 Thunderbolt II. To achieve infrared stealth, the exhaust gas is cooled to the temperatures where the brightest wavelengths it radiates on are absorbed by atmospheric carbon dioxide and water vapor, dramatically reducing the infrared visibility of the exhaust plume. Another way to reduce the exhaust temperature is to circulate coolant fluids such as fuel inside the exhaust pipe, where the fuel tanks serve as heat sinks cooled by the flow of air along the wings.
*
Reducing radio frequency (RF) emissions*
In addition to reducing infrared and acoustic emissions, a stealth vehicle must avoid radiating any other detectable energy, such as from onboard radars, communications systems, or RF leakage from electronics enclosures. The F-117 uses passive infra-red and "low light level TV" sensor systems to aim its weapons and the F-22 Raptor has an advanced LPI radar which can illuminate enemy aircraft without triggering a radar warning receiver response.

*Measuring stealth*
The size of a target's image on radar is measured by the radar cross section or RCS, often represented by the symbol &#963; and expressed in square meters. This does not equal geometric area. A perfectly conducting sphere of projected cross sectional area 1 m2 (ie a diameter of 1.13 m) will have an RCS of 1 m2. Note that for radar wavelengths much less than the diameter of the sphere, RCS is independent of frequency. Conversely, a square flat plate of area 1 m2 will have an RCS of &#963; = 4&#960; A2 / &#955;2 (where A=area, &#955;=wavelength), or 13,982 m2 at 10 GHz if the radar is perpendicular to the flat surface. At off-normal incident angles, energy is reflected away from the receiver, reducing the RCS. Modern stealth aircraft are said to have an RCS comparable with small birds or large insects, though this varies widely depending on aircraft and radar.

If the RCS was directly related to the target's cross-sectional area, the only way to reduce it would be to make the physical profile smaller. Rather, by reflecting much of the radiation away or absorbing it altogether, the target achieves a smaller radar cross section.

*Stealth tactics*
Stealthy strike aircraft such as the F-117, designed by Lockheed Martin's famous Skunk Works, are usually used against heavily defended enemy sites such as Command and Control centers or surface-to-air missile (SAM) batteries. Enemy radar will cover the airspace around these sites with overlapping coverage, making undetected entry by conventional aircraft nearly impossible. Stealthy aircraft can also be detected, but only at short ranges around the radars, so that for a stealthy aircraft there are substantial gaps in the radar coverage. Thus a stealthy aircraft flying an appropriate route can remain undetected by radar. Many ground-based radars exploit Doppler filter to improve sensitivity to objects having a radial velocity component with respect to the radar. Mission planners use their knowledge of the enemy radar locations and the RCS pattern of the aircraft to design a flight path that minimizes radial speed while presenting the lowest-RCS aspects of the aircraft to the threat radar. In order to be able to fly these "safe" routes, it is necessary to understand the enemy's radar coverage . Mobile radars such as AWACS can complicate matters.

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## wild peace

one is surely SD10
Google Image Result for http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/2_SD10_missile.jpg

the second one if c701
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/c-701_1-s.jpg

or if PL10
Google Image Result for http://cnair.top81.cn/missiles/PL-8B.jpg


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## Myth_buster_1

wild peace said:


> one is surely SD10
> Google Image Result for http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/2_SD10_missile.jpg
> 
> the second one if c701
> http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/c-701_1-s.jpg
> 
> or if PL10
> Google Image Result for http://cnair.top81.cn/missiles/PL-8B.jpg



PL-11 it is...


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## PakShaheen79

Growler said:


> Not SD-10.... more like PL-11



I am talking about first one from fuselage. Other one is a AAM Pl-11 / or Pl-12. My question was one bigger one next to AAM. I think it is C-701.


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## PakShaheen79

@ Wild Peace

Please mention your source and provide links as well. Next please fix the links of pics in your Stealth post. It must be JPG in file extension instead of jpgr.


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## Arsalan

Growler said:


> PL-11 it is...



which one are you talking about, inlight of reference pics provided by wild_peace it seem that he have spotted them correctly. can yu please tell us which one do you doubt.

regards!


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## Myth_buster_1

arsalanaslam123 said:


> which one are you talking about, inlight of reference pics provided by wild_peace it seem that he have spotted them correctly. can yu please tell us which one do you doubt.
> 
> regards!



I am referring to 2nd AAM pylon with PL-11... 
and some how those pictures are not related to PAF.


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## abbasniazi

No matter how good J10 turn out to be, it would be arriving too late for pakistan i.e 2014-15+

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## PakShaheen79

^ Pakistani J-10 will b considerably different from current J-10. Just look at J10B. I think Pakistan is waiting for Chinese engine and AESA radar.


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## Arsalan

Growler said:


> I am referring to 2nd AAM pylon with PL-11...
> and some how those pictures are not related to PAF.



well the one you posted here does not look like the one shown in the previous post,,
there the front wings are slightly slanted backwards while the one you posted have a perfect delta,,
anyhow with FC20 a justified topic of debate for PAF we may not neglect the weapons that might come along!!!

regards!


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## TaimiKhan

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well the one you posted here does not look like the one shown in the previous post,,
> there the front wings are slightly slanted backwards while the one you posted have a perfect delta,,
> anyhow with FC20 a justified topic of debate for PAF we may not neglect the weapons that might come along!!!
> 
> regards!



This below pic may give a better Idea of what PL-11 looks like.


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## Myth_buster_1

taimikhan said:


> This below pic may give a better Idea of what PL-11 looks like.



yep... and right along side the pl-11 is the the SD-10...


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## wild peace

Assalam u allaikum



PakShaheen79 said:


> @ Wild Peace
> 
> Please mention your source and provide links as well. Next please fix the links of pics in your Stealth post. It must be JPG in file extension instead of jpgr.



Done. Images available there. Enjoy.


Long live Pakistan ever ....................


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## PakShaheen79

What is RCS of J-10B? Any source any one. I think i must be close to F-16's.


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> What is RCS of J-10B? Any source any one. I think i must be close to F-16's.



The 01/1031 prototype of the new J-10B was unveiled in March 2009, 3 months after its maiden flight in December 2008. *This much improved variant features a DSI/bump engine inlet which not only cuts weight but also reduces RCS*, after a similar design was first tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. *The aircraft also features a J-11B style IRST/LR and a wide-angle holographic HUD. IRST enables passive detection of enemy aircraft, making J-10B more stealthy in combat.* Its nose appears flatter too, similar to that of American F-16, and radar is thought to be PESA which is still under development (of Russian origin?), the first of such type ever being developed for a Chinese fighter aircraft, giving J-10B a stronger multi-target engagement and ECCM capability. Two large ECM pods are attached under the wings. The tip of vertical tailfin was redesigned as well, featuring a large fairing containing communication and ECM antennas, which resembles that of French Mirage 2000. A rear facing MAWS sensor can be seen underneath the parachute boom. A similar system was tested onboard FC-1/JF-17 as well. All these improvements suggest that J-10B is equipped with a new generation of integrated electronic system, ranging from radar to EW system. The aircraft thus serves likely as a testbed for various advanced avionics onboard the 4th generation J-14 (see below).* Its mission may be changed from air-superiority to multi-purpose, such as AG or EW.* In addition, the aircarft is expected to be powered eventually by an indigenous WS-10A turbofan. *Overall J-10B is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60. *


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## Owais

PakShaheen79 said:


> What is RCS of J-10B? Any source any one. I think i must be close to F-16's.



it might be less than F16 due to DSI


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## Myth_buster_1

hasnain0099 said:


> *Overall J-10B is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60. *



i highly dough it. 

we all know that J-10A is at most only comparable to F-16 block 42 so i dont expect such a dramatic change from J-10A to B that it is worth comparable to block 60! unless Pakistan can find what it needs from european market FC-20 can be turned into a very capable MRCA!


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## PakShaheen79

@hasnain0099
----------------

But still there is no RCS figure is given in this article about J-10B. As far as being comparable to F-16 Block 60 is concerned well, I will only consider it comparable to Block 60 if it also has an AESA like Block-60. Other than that I don't think Chinese know much about Block 60 neither we know much about J-10B.


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> @hasnain0099
> ----------------
> 
> But still there is no RCS figure is given in this article about J-10B. As far as being comparable to F-16 Block 60 is concerned well, I will only consider it comparable to Block 60 if it also has an AESA like Block-60. Other than that I don't think Chinese know much about Block 60 neither we know much about J-10B.


Why would some one tell about RCS figure? c'mon i was n't expecting this
PAF will be acquiring FC-20 with AESA sir so it is not a problem and yes Chinese would know as much about the BL-60 as US about J-10B or J-11B so the comparison is generally on the bases of features and similarities in real sense no two planes can be compared do they?


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## SBD-3

Growler said:


> i highly dough it.
> 
> we all know that J-10A is at most only comparable to F-16 block 42 so i dont expect such a dramatic change from J-10A to B that it is worth comparable to block 60! unless Pakistan can find what it needs from european market FC-20 can be turned into a very capable MRCA!



ok lets Rob the wallet of FED


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## PakShaheen79

hasnain0099 said:


> Why would some one tell about RCS figure? c'mon i was n't expecting this
> PAF will be acquiring FC-20 with AESA sir so it is not a problem and yes Chinese would know as much about the BL-60 as US about J-10B or J-11B so the comparison is generally on the bases of features and similarities in real sense no two planes can be compared do they?



I think RCS of many fighter jets are documented now. I was trying to get a general idea. As far as getting FC-20 with AESA, I second that.

Well, all the features are Block-60 are available but J-10B is still in testing so i don't think it is wise for comparing it with something like F-16 Block60. We even don't know about true specifications of J-10B as yet.


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think RCS of many fighter jets are documented now. I was trying to get a general idea. As far as getting FC-20 with AESA, I second that.
> 
> Well, all the features are Block-60 are available but J-10B is still in testing so i don't think it is wise for comparing it with something like F-16 Block60. We even don't know about true specifications of J-10B as yet.



the specs that are available are generally of export models Chinese will never reveal the true specs of J-10B mark my words


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## Myth_buster_1

hasnain0099 said:


> the specs that are available are generally of export models Chinese will never reveal the true specs of J-10B mark my words



J-10B is a export product so i would rather expect Chinese to over hype the capabilities then to hide it in order to generate alot of export.


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## SBD-3

Growler said:


> J-10B is a export product so i would rather expect Chinese to over hype the capabilities then to hide it in order to generate alot of export.





> J-10B: An *upgraded variant of J-10*. Existence is not confirmed by official Chinese sources but numerous images of a new J-10 variant have appeared, showing a prototype J-10 modified with a diverterless supersonic intake (DSI), an infra-red search and track (IRST) sensor, modified vertical stabiliser and ventral fins, housings fitted under the wings and a modified nose that could indicate a new type of radar.[26][27] This variant may be the same aircraft as "Super-10", a variant reported by Russian sources in January 2006 to be under development and incorporating a passive phased array (PESA) radar, stronger airframe and the Saturn AL-31FN M1 turbofan engine with 3D thrust vector control (TVC).


export variants are usually watered down


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## batmannow

the QUESTION is that, what we are doing on this , great project, i mean not from the chinese side, but from PAF side, what kind of work we are doing to make it , 4 star fighter?


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## Myth_buster_1

batmannow said:


> the QUESTION is that, what we are doing on this , great project, i mean not from the chinese side, but from PAF side, what kind of work we are doing to make it , 4 star fighter?



nothing but ordering... and i am serious.. however... JF-17 has alot of our own indigenous inputs.


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## batmannow

Growler said:


> nothing but ordering... and i am serious.. however... JF-17 has alot of our own indigenous inputs.



Dear sir, would you kindly , sharre the "our own indigenous inputs"?


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## PakShaheen79

hasnain0099 said:


> export variants are usually watered down



So you are trying to tell that F-16 Block 60s are watered downed? R u serious....?

To me it all depends what ur customer wants.... JXX is now something secret in China not J-10 and its variants.


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## Sapper

PakShaheen79 said:


> So you are trying to tell that F-16 Block 60s are watered downed? R u serious....?
> 
> To me it all depends what ur customer wants.... JXX is now something secret in China not J-10 and its variants.



Please remember that F16 block 60 is the first and ONLY exception ... it even says so in its info bulletins.

Generally, Export variants are watered down ... you cannot build upon an exception and say that the "rule" doesn't exist ... consider an exception as an exception.


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## PakShaheen79

Sapper said:


> Please remember that F16 block 60 is the first and ONLY exception ... it even says so in its info bulletins.
> 
> Generally, Export variants are watered down ... you cannot build upon an exception and say that the "rule" doesn't exist ... consider an exception as an exception.



Why can't Pakistan can be one such exception for Chinese products. Ever heard BVR AAM coming with Thunders. It is prime project of Chinese and they spend well over 10 years in its developments and straightaway it is coming to PAF.


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> Why can't Pakistan can be one such exception for Chinese products. Ever heard BVR AAM coming with Thunders. It is prime project of Chinese and they spend well over 10 years in its developments and straightaway it is coming to PAF.



F-7PGs offered to Pakistan were at higher tech level than F-7s used by PLAAF at that time and FC-20 will be based on J-10B or even upgraded J-10B so expect the same thing again


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## SQ8

indigenous inputs referred to may include the hundred or so PAF engineers that were actively involved in the design process.


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## wangrong



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## Myth_buster_1

hasnain0099 said:


> F-7PGs offered to Pakistan were at higher tech level than F-7s used by PLAAF at that time and FC-20 will be based on J-10B or even upgraded J-10B so expect the same thing again



Mind you F-7 is a freaking 40+ years old plane... and now after 30 years China decides to modify it for "export"... mind you bangladesh have got the same variant as well.. 
as for J-10.... like i have said before.. China never gives their new products straight away... they make you wait for some time.... and plus.. like F-7PG.... FC-20 is a export product... so basically.. china has two production line.. one for domestic use and other for export.


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## Quwa

Usman Shabbir on PakDef confirmed that the J-10B airframe will be used for FC-20. The question I guess is on the radar, avionics, ECM/EW and weapon-systems. 

1. IMO it's clear that JF-17 and FC-20 will use the same set of A2A and A2G weapon-systems. If Pakistan were to cooperate with South Africa & Europe in this regard, then I would rule out Chinese-systems.

2. The radar could require a lot more guessing. The PAF is clear on using AESA with JF-17, and will acquire ToT for any radar it chooses (for domestic production & development). It's possible that FC-20 may use an AESA radar from the same core-provider, or maybe Pakistan will develop one in cooperation with China/Italy-U.K.

3. I expect ECM/EW will be approached in the same manner as radar, though we may see more cooperation with Turkey in this regard.

4. Avionics will likely be developed & produced in Pakistan.

Keep in mind that the PAF has set a figure of 60~150 FC-20s in the long-run.

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## Myth_buster_1

Mark Sien said:


> Usman Shabbir on PakDef confirmed that the J-10B airframe will be used for FC-20. The question I guess is on the radar, avionics, ECM/EW and weapon-systems.
> 
> 1. IMO it's clear that JF-17 and FC-20 will use the same set of A2A and A2G weapon-systems. If Pakistan were to cooperate with South Africa & Europe in this regard, then I would rule out Chinese-systems.
> 
> 2. The radar could require a lot more guessing. The PAF is clear on using AESA with JF-17, and will acquire ToT for any radar it chooses (for domestic production & development). It's possible that FC-20 may use an AESA radar from the same core-provider, or maybe Pakistan will develop one in cooperation with China/Italy-U.K.
> 
> 3. I expect ECM/EW will be approached in the same manner as radar, though we may see more cooperation with Turkey in this regard.
> 
> 4. Avionics will likely be developed & produced in Pakistan.
> 
> Keep in mind that the PAF has set a figure of 60~150 FC-20s in the long-run.



Wow that should clear alot of things from my head. 
Thats what i was wondering and hoping for the PAF. IMO a chinese version of FC-20 wont be such a competitive 4.5 generation fighter as most of their top notch R&D are concentrated for "domestic" production. 
I also hope to add another Technology provider "South Korea" for FC-20 and JF-17 program. Recently they have developed ECM technology which has been offered to pakistan and i think without hesitation we should ask for co operations. 
During IDAS defense exhibition, PAF did show alot of interests on western weapon systems such as Meteor and i wonder if that could likely be primary AAM for FC-20? 
As for the AESA radar for JF-17. Do you think PAF is perhaps looking forward to integrating right after delivery of 50 Chinese version or after the contract of 150?


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## wangrong



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## PakShaheen79

wangrong

Did you made all these 3d J-10s?


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## owais.usmani



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## Tempest II

*Here more indications/evidence that PAF will be getting the J-10B.*

*China's AVIC steps up sales push for FC-1, J-10 fighters*



> By Siva Govindasamy
> 
> China plans to market the Chengdu FC-1/JF-17 and J-10 fighters aggressively as part of its plan to become a major player in the global aerospace industry.
> 
> "While AVIC's main job is to manufacture aircraft, the company also fulfils a national agenda by producing military aircraft for China's political allies around the world," says a source close to Chengdu's state-owned parent company. "There are also countries that would like to buy a good fighter, but not at the cost of a Western fighter.
> 
> "While China's military aircraft have been exported for many years, this is the first time that there is a concerted effort to properly market them and establish a support network," the source adds.
> 
> In the past few months, senior company officials have been identifying the military products that will be given the most attention for the export market. In the fighter segment, the JF-17 and the J-10 are the two most important aircraft, says the source.
> 
> "Given that the JF-17 has been in service in China and Pakistan for a number of years and is a mature programme, it is being given first priority," the source adds.
> 
> Islamabad, which helped to develop the JF-17, has committed to buying 150 aircraft produced by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex. This figure could rise to 300 aircraft to replace the country's air force fleets of Nanchang A-5s, Chengdu F-7s and Dassault Mirage III and Mirage Vs.
> 
> The JF-17 will be able to carry a variety of conventional and precision-guided bombs, and air-to-air and air-to-sea missiles from short- to beyond-visual-range. The type is already being marketed to countries in Africa, the Middle East, South America and South-East Asia.
> 
> "The J-10 is not ready for export yet, as AVIC is still finalising upgrades for the fighter," the source says. "But there has been interest from several countries."
> 
> *AVIC is likely to begin exports of the new type - which entered Chinese air force service in early 2007 - after it has finished developing an upgraded J-10B version. Enhancements are to include a modified vertical stabiliser and ventral fins, redesigned engine inlet, a new radar and an infrared search and track sensor.
> 
> Pakistan is likely to be the first export customer, having begun negotiations to buy 36 aircraft several years ago. To be designated locally as FC-20s, deliveries are likely to begin from 2014-15.*
> 
> Beijing could extend loans to purchasing countries and offer local assembly if there are sufficient orders, the source adds.


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## almasilyas

well that shows they have finished or completed the J10B.......sounds really cool if it is....it also helps Pakistan to catch  these beauties little early.....


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## SBD-3

almasilyas said:


> well that shows they have finished or completed the J10B.......sounds really cool if it is....it also helps Pakistan to catch  these beauties little early.....


it has happened months ago in 2008 they had done this but it is in testing, system integration mode so dont expect it soon. PAF will get it even later as it plans to induct western systems in the Aircraft


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## PakShaheen79

hasnain0099 said:


> it has happened months ago in 2008 they had done this but it is in testing, system integration mode so dont expect it soon.* PAF will get it even later as it plans to induct western systems in the Aircraft*



I don't think so. China will not allow that so easily man. Plus PAF did gave them a cushion of time period so that they can check and mature their systems.


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> I don't think so. China will not allow that so easily man. Plus PAF did gave them a cushion of time period so that they can check and mature their systems.


well why China would not *Allow*that? FC-20 will be customized for PAF just like JF-17 which will feature western systems in later block China will have to compete for tech as they successfully did in JF-17 case


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## IceCold

hasnain0099 said:


> well why China would not *Allow*that? FC-20 will be customized for PAF just like JF-17 which will feature western systems in later block China will have to compete for tech as they successfully did in JF-17 case



Maybe because unlike JF-17, J-10 is not a joint venture between Pakistan and China and being the front line fighter jet, Chinese maybe a bit reluctant to expose their jet to western technology. On the other hand looking at the past,i don't feel that the idea of inducting western technology is far fetched. 

On a side note the way Chinese are making progress imo Pakistan wont find a need to go for western technology as far as J-10 is concerned.


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## PakShaheen79

hasnain0099 said:


> well why China would not *Allow*that? FC-20 will be customized for PAF just like JF-17 which will feature western systems in later block China will have to compete for tech as they successfully did in JF-17 case



Because PAF has set its requirements and Chinese have assured they will meet them by 2014-15. Secondly, it is not confirm if China will sell these with permission to be updated with Western tech.

Customized mean not necessarily to have Western systems.


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> Because PAF has set its requirements and Chinese have assured they will meet them by 2014-15. Secondly, it is not confirm if China will sell these with permission to be updated with Western tech.
> 
> Customized mean not necessarily to have Western systems.


they should not have any reservations as we will be integrating western avionics in FC-20 just like we did in F-7PG. Remember Pakistan will be manufacturing these in Pakistan under ToT if it heads with the decision. We will not be handing over our ACs to westerns. As PAF will be inducting possible french avionics in Thunder so it will have the opportunity to do the same with FC-20


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## PakShaheen79

hasnain0099 said:


> *they should not have any reservations as we will be integrating western avionics in FC-20 just like we did in F-7PG.* Remember Pakistan will be manufacturing these in Pakistan under ToT if it heads with the decision. We will not be handing over our ACs to westerns. As PAF will be inducting possible french avionics in Thunder so it will have the opportunity to do the same with FC-20



Dear FC-20 and J-10 have nothing to do with F-7PG. That was some 40 year old design whereas J-10 is pride of China. Taking nothing away from Western avionics let me tell you one thing straight PAF will only let FC-20 inducted once it meet requirements set by PAF. Just look at deliver time... What you think where Chinese avionics will be at that time. I will not surprised if FC-20 comes with a Chinese AESA by then.


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> Dear FC-20 and J-10 have nothing to do with F-7PG. That was some 40 year old design whereas J-10 is pride of China.


I was quoting F-7PG as an example


> Taking nothing away from Western avionics let me tell you one thing straight PAF will only let FC-20 inducted once it meet requirements set by PAF. Just look at deliver time... What you think where Chinese avionics will be at that time. I will not surprised if FC-20 comes with a Chinese AESA by then.


it may also be die to the reason that by then we would have integrated European avionics in Thunder so that we would be able to decide whether we want to induct these or Chinese Avionics on FC-20


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## arsenal_gooner

(if this has been posted then delete this post please ) exept for the pics at the bottom of my post


China Defense Blog: J-10B for Pakistan

This article confirms what we already know for some time  the Pakistan Air Force is interested in J-10B instead of the standard J-10 variant currently in service with the PLAAF.


DATE:30/09/09
SOURCE:Flight International
China's AVIC steps up sales push for FC-1, J-10 fighters
By Siva Govindasamy

China's AVIC steps up sales push for FC-1, J-10 fighters

China plans to market the Chengdu FC-1/JF-17 and J-10 fighters aggressively as part of its plan to become a major player in the global aerospace industry.

"While AVIC's main job is to manufacture aircraft, the company also fulfils a national agenda by producing military aircraft for China's political allies around the world," says a source close to Chengdu's state-owned parent company. "There are also countries that would like to buy a good fighter, but not at the cost of a Western fighter.

"While China's military aircraft have been exported for many years, this is the first time that there is a concerted effort to properly market them and establish a support network," the source adds.

In the past few months, senior company officials have been identifying the military products that will be given the most attention for the export market. In the fighter segment, the JF-17 and the J-10 are the two most important aircraft, says the source.

"Given that the JF-17 has been in service in China and Pakistan for a number of years and is a mature programme, it is being given first priority," the source adds.

Islamabad, which helped to develop the JF-17, has committed to buying 150 aircraft produced by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex. This figure could rise to 300 aircraft to replace the country's air force fleets of Nanchang A-5s, Chengdu F-7s and Dassault Mirage III and Mirage Vs.

The JF-17 will be able to carry a variety of conventional and precision-guided bombs, and air-to-air and air-to-sea missiles from short- to beyond-visual-range. The type is already being marketed to countries in Africa, the Middle East, South America and South-East Asia.

"The J-10 is not ready for export yet, as AVIC is still finalising upgrades for the fighter," the source says. "But there has been interest from several countries."

AVIC is likely to begin exports of the new type - which entered Chinese air force service in early 2007 - after it has finished developing an upgraded J-10B version. Enhancements are to include a modified vertical stabiliser and ventral fins, redesigned engine inlet, a new radar and an infrared search and track sensor.
Pakistan is likely to be the first export customer, having begun negotiations to buy 36 aircraft several years ago. To be designated locally as FC-20s, deliveries are likely to begin from 2014-15.

Beijing could extend loans to purchasing countries and offer local assembly if there are sufficient orders, the source adds.

here are some recent pics of the J-10B 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3wZSwFvZz...s/aw6C2PDo4Oo/s1600/j10b-1254313327_79489.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3wZSwFvZz...k/CZSWtXI6Xz8/s1600/j10b-1254313327_48772.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3wZSwFvZz...c/kJFIBviFkMc/s1600/j10b-1254313327_32794.jpg


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Wonderful piece of art


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## SBD-3

arsenal_gooner said:


> (if this has been posted then delete this post please ) exept for the pics at the bottom of my post
> 
> 
> China Defense Blog: J-10B for Pakistan
> 
> This article confirms what we already know for some time  the Pakistan Air Force is interested in J-10B instead of the standard J-10 variant currently in service with the PLAAF.
> 
> 
> DATE:30/09/09
> SOURCE:Flight International
> China's AVIC steps up sales push for FC-1, J-10 fighters
> By Siva Govindasamy
> 
> China's AVIC steps up sales push for FC-1, J-10 fighters
> 
> China plans to market the Chengdu FC-1/JF-17 and J-10 fighters aggressively as part of its plan to become a major player in the global aerospace industry.
> 
> "While AVIC's main job is to manufacture aircraft, the company also fulfils a national agenda by producing military aircraft for China's political allies around the world," says a source close to Chengdu's state-owned parent company. "There are also countries that would like to buy a good fighter, but not at the cost of a Western fighter.
> 
> "While China's military aircraft have been exported for many years, this is the first time that there is a concerted effort to properly market them and establish a support network," the source adds.
> 
> In the past few months, senior company officials have been identifying the military products that will be given the most attention for the export market. In the fighter segment, the JF-17 and the J-10 are the two most important aircraft, says the source.
> 
> "Given that the JF-17 has been in service in China and Pakistan for a number of years and is a mature programme, it is being given first priority," the source adds.
> 
> Islamabad, which helped to develop the JF-17, has committed to buying 150 aircraft produced by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex. This figure could rise to 300 aircraft to replace the country's air force fleets of Nanchang A-5s, Chengdu F-7s and Dassault Mirage III and Mirage Vs.
> 
> The JF-17 will be able to carry a variety of conventional and precision-guided bombs, and air-to-air and air-to-sea missiles from short- to beyond-visual-range. The type is already being marketed to countries in Africa, the Middle East, South America and South-East Asia.
> 
> "The J-10 is not ready for export yet, as AVIC is still finalising upgrades for the fighter," the source says. "But there has been interest from several countries."
> 
> AVIC is likely to begin exports of the new type - which entered Chinese air force service in early 2007 - after it has finished developing an upgraded J-10B version. Enhancements are to include a modified vertical stabiliser and ventral fins, redesigned engine inlet, a new radar and an infrared search and track sensor.
> Pakistan is likely to be the first export customer, having begun negotiations to buy 36 aircraft several years ago. To be designated locally as FC-20s, deliveries are likely to begin from 2014-15.
> 
> Beijing could extend loans to purchasing countries and offer local assembly if there are sufficient orders, the source adds.
> 
> here are some recent pics of the J-10B
> 
> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3wZSwFvZz...s/aw6C2PDo4Oo/s1600/j10b-1254313327_79489.jpg
> 
> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3wZSwFvZz...k/CZSWtXI6Xz8/s1600/j10b-1254313327_48772.jpg
> 
> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3wZSwFvZz...c/kJFIBviFkMc/s1600/j10b-1254313327_32794.jpg



I think some one has posted this article and mr owais has posted these pics

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## owais.usmani

*Primary armament of J-10: The SD-10 BVRAM*


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## Kompromat

Posting J10/B pictures


Is J-10B finally revealing itself? 
Going away from the naval coverage for a second, this week we probably had one of the bigger events for PLA watchers.

Back in December, we heard about J-10B (which is the improved variant of J-10) taking off for the first time. So in the past week, we apparently got the first set of images for this plane. A lot of people may ask what's the big deal here. Well, the problem is that much of the Western media has been inflating the story of Russian military imports to China in the past 15 years. For PLAAF, I don't think I've read any report without talking about Su-27s and Su-30s that China bought. As significant as those are, the reality is that none of those planes are anywhere near as important to PLAAF as J-10. And this also explains why China waited until 2006 before unveiling the plane and did not give US permission to see J-10 even though they got permission to see and talk to the pilots of flankers + fly JH-7A. As early as 2005, we started receiving stories about J-10 crushing flankers in PLAAF's own red vs blue exercises. So, J-10B is supposed to be the one major fighter that bridges the gap between J-10A and the 5th generation plane currently under development at CAC. They say that it is suppose to be a more multi-role plane, but I think that it is still going to be the premier air superiority plane in PLA. When DoD, USAF and private organizations like RAND run their simulations, they really should use this plane instead of Su-27s.

I've delayed posting these pictures, because it is very unclear and many people thought it looked to be PSed from previous photos. But I think these pictures have lasted long enough to have validity. And in many ways, I think the picture actually was pretty much what I expected it to be. You can see J-10B in the photos

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## PakShaheen79

Notion of being a bridge between J-10A and 5th gen sound interesting... US also did test lots of F-22 sub systems on proven F-16s. So i will not wonder if China follow the same path.


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## SBD-3

IT WAS hardly a celebration, with no one allowed to line the streets or even stand on balconies to watch the troops and tanks parade through central Beijing. Amid tight security, China marked its National Day on October 1st with an extravaganza showing off a rapidly growing arsenal of sophisticated made-in-China weaponry.

Even homing pigeons, commonly kept by Beijing residents, had to stay in their cages (for fear of bombing pigeons, apparently). Kite-flying was banned. China did not want its first military parade in a decade to be marred by any hint of the unrest that has roiled the distant regions of Tibet and Xinjiang in the past two years. Citizens were encouraged to stay at home and watch the spectacular on television.

*Unlike at the parade in 1999, which featured Russian-made SU-27 fighter-jets streaking overhead, this parade, marking the 60th anniversary of the founding of communist China, involved only Chinese-built equipment. This included everything from J-10 fighters, a newly developed plane boosted as a serious competitor to Americas F-16*, and missiles, including the nuclear DF-31 intercontinental ballistic one capable of hitting anywhere in America. The Pentagon says the DF-31 has been deployed in the past two or three years. Unlike Chinas older silo-based strategic missiles, which would have been relatively easy to destroy before launch, the DF-31 can be concealed on the back of a lorry.

The nearly 500 pieces of hardware rumbling through Tiananmen Square past members of the ruling Politburo also included DF-15 and DF-11 short-range ballistic missiles. The Pentagon believes that more than 1,050 of these have been deployed on the coast facing Taiwan since the late 1990s. Chinese state-run television noted that the parade was the first through Beijing to feature cruise missiles. China has been developing these to counter American warships that might intervene should hostilities break out in the Taiwan Strait.

Officials were careful not to mention America or Taiwan by name. But the message was clear enough. The official news agency, Xinhua, noted that fewer troops, 8,000, took part than in 1999 (10,000). But there were more vehicles and aircraft. China has been working hard in the past decade to develop its own technologies and reduce its dependence on Russia for state-of-the-art hardware. This parade showed how far it had come.

It was also intended to show the Communist Partys own strength at a time of global economic crisis. Today, a socialist China geared toward modernisation, the world and the future stands rock firm in the east, said President Hu Jintao in a speech. On the vast expanse of Tiananmen Square before him, tens of thousands of students flipped coloured cards to form phrases such as obey the partys command and be loyal to the party. Even the weather paid heed. After several days of smog and occasional drizzle, the sky over Beijing turned a clear blue.

It was Mr Hus first military parade in Beijing as commander-in-chief and his last before he steps down as party leader in 2012 and as president in 2013. Marchers displayed some of his favourite slogans, such as his pledge to build a harmonious society. With Beijing full of security personnel, few would have been convinced that he has made much progress.
China's National Day: Party like it's '49 | The Economist

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## truepakistani17

as far as i understand from the discussion above we cannot say that J10 will eventually turn out to be a fifth generation plane but what can be said is that it surely is going to play a pivtol role in the development of a fifth generation by providing the chines aeronautical industry with a platform of there own where then can check there systems and can modifiy it to analyse various techniques. also the technical experties gained in thies project may well prove fruitfull!


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## gambit

truepakistani17 said:


> as far as i understand from the discussion above *we cannot say that J10 will eventually turn out to be a fifth generation plane* but what can be said is that it surely is going to play a pivtol role in the development of a fifth generation by providing the chines aeronautical industry with a platform of there own where then can check there systems and can modifiy it to analyse various techniques. also the technical experties gained in thies project may well prove fruitfull!


Yes we can...The J-10 is *NOT* a fifth-generation fighter.


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## TaimiKhan

Ê×ÆØ£º¼ßÊ®BµÄÏà¿ØÕóÀ×´ï£¿Îó´«¡£| Ó¥»÷³¤¿Õ - ·ÉÑï¾üÊÂ ÐñÈÕ³ö¶«·½£¬¾«²ÊÔÚ·ÉÑï - powered by phpwind.net


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## Jabar 1

[/IMG]


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## PakShaheen79

taimikhan said:


> &#202;&#215;&#198;&#216;&#163;&#186;&#188;&#223;&#202;&#174;B&#181;&#196;&#207;&#224;&#191;&#216;&#213;&#243;&#192;&#215;&#180;&#239;&#163;&#191;&#206;&#243;&#180;&#171;&#161;&#163;| &#211;&#165;&#187;&#247;&#179;&#164;&#191;&#213; - &#183;&#201;&#209;&#239;&#190;&#252;&#202;&#194; &#208;&#241;&#200;&#213;&#179;&#246;&#182;&#171;&#183;&#189;&#163;&#172;&#190;&#171;&#178;&#202;&#212;&#218;&#183;&#201;&#209;&#239; - powered by phpwind.net



Now that looks like a big antenna and is going to be ab AESA. It must also put things in prospective why time line for J-10B in PAF is set around 2014-15.


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## Myth_buster_1

PakShaheen79 said:


> Now that looks like a big antenna and is going to be ab AESA. It must also put things in prospective why time line for J-10B in PAF is set around 2014-15.


I highly dough China will be able to produce entirely new AESA radar on its own capable as any other 4.5 generation MRCA without a product to work from.


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## PakShaheen79

Growler said:


> I highly dough China will be able to produce entirely new AESA radar on its own capable as any other 4.5 generation MRCA without a product to work from.



Any idea who provide 

-Nuclear subs to China to work from
-ICBMs to China to work from
-Anti Sat tech to China to work from
-Cruise Missiles to China to work from


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## xukxuk

Growler said:


> I highly dough China will be able to produce entirely new AESA radar on its own capable as any other 4.5 generation MRCA without a product to work from.



that's the main key china can close the tech gap with the west in the shot period of time
guys i can promise you
in next ten years you will see less and less copy weapon made by china
the reason is innovation cost a lot more money than copy and improving. 
from late 70s to last 90s we cut a lot our military budget to build our home town to do education to increase our GDP 
and now we got the money and the technician to do innovation.
so thanks to deng xiao ping's reformation and opening policy
after 30 years we finally got the strength to play the game with the west.

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## Myth_buster_1

xukxuk said:


> that's the main key china can close the tech gap with the west in the shot period of time
> guys i can promise you
> in next ten years you will see less and less copy weapon made by china
> the reason is innovation cost a lot more money than copy and improving.
> from late 70s to last 90s we cut a lot our military budget to build our home town to do education to increase our GDP
> and now we got the money and the technician to do innovation.
> so thanks to deng xiao ping's reformation and opening policy
> after 30 years we finally got the strength to play the game with the west.



Thanks buddy... thats exactly what i am trying to say. China needs some time to improve its military technology "indigenously". Lets give china about 20-30 years and i can confidently say their technology will be par with western without even copying the way how they have really advanced. and like you have said about the GDP.. heck with that GDP even western companies would wana invest or even run away from their country to help china.  
But to say that today china has mastered technology and are on par with west is no right.


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## gambit

Growler said:


> Thanks buddy... thats exactly what i am trying to say. China needs some time to improve its military technology "indigenously". Lets *give china about 20-30 years and i can confidently say their technology will be par with western without even copying the way how they have really advanced.* and like you have said about the GDP.. heck with that GDP even western companies would wana invest or even run away from their country to help china.
> But to say that today china has mastered technology and are on par with west is no right.


That is based upon the assumption that the West will remain static, which is unlikely. I have said it elsewhere and I will repeat it here: That there is no such thing as 'military technology' but rather it is about the adoption and adaptation of technology to military uses. These adoptions and adaptations may occur ahead of civilian use perhaps due to special circumstances, such as war, but generally it is the civilian sector that will innovate. The US Dod DARPA organization does not produce anything but only provide funding and direction for projects and that relies upon the dynamicism of the civilian marketplace to make possible those projects. In this, as long as the US continues to fund these special projects, it is unlikely that China will achieve parity with US on the 'military technology' front.

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## MZUBAIR

PakShaheen79 said:


> Any idea who provide
> 
> -Nuclear subs to China to work from
> -ICBMs to China to work from
> -Anti Sat tech to China to work from
> -Cruise Missiles to China to work from



Exactly....if they can develop those things then Y not AESA Radar.


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## Arsalan

MZUBAIR said:


> Exactly....if they can develop those things then Y not AESA Radar.



the point is quite clear and simple to understand for those who want to!!

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

gambit said:


> That is based upon the assumption that the West will remain static, which is unlikely. I have said it elsewhere and I will repeat it here: That there is no such thing as 'military technology' but rather it is about the adoption and adaptation of technology to military uses. These adoptions and adaptations may occur ahead of civilian use perhaps due to special circumstances, such as war, but generally it is the civilian sector that will innovate. The US Dod DARPA organization does not produce anything but only provide funding and direction for projects and that relies upon the dynamicism of the civilian marketplace to make possible those projects. In this, as long as the US continues to fund these special projects, it is unlikely that China will achieve parity with US on the 'military technology' front.



What if China also accelerate funding into defense projects more than US. If we look at last 10 years i think technological differences between US and China has decreased not increased. In 1980s China was busy with 3rd gen fighters whereas US had initiated 5th gen fighter programs... After 2000 we saw US just began inducting 5th gen fighters and China has also started work on them. It is still some 10 years behind but within next 5-7 years we will witness both US and China doing extensive R & D around 6th gen programs.

I think space is an area where US will enjoy technological edge for longer than aviation. Eurpoe and China will catch US in next decade in aviation but space is one place where there is no competitor for NASA; neither in East nor in West.


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## a1b2c145

xukxuk said:


> that's the main key china can close the tech gap with the west in the shot period of time
> guys i can promise you
> in next ten years you will see less and less copy weapon made by china
> the reason is innovation cost a lot more money than copy and improving.
> from late 70s to last 90s we cut a lot our military budget to build our home town to do education to increase our GDP
> and now we got the money and the technician to do innovation.
> so thanks to deng xiao ping's reformation and opening policy
> after 30 years we finally got the strength to play the game with the west.



play with wolfs, 

you guys back up pakstain while US and russia will support us, we will win, play with money


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## applesauce

a1b2c145 said:


> play with wolfs,
> 
> you guys back up pakstain while US and russia will support us, we will win, play with money



yes.... exactly...you keep thinking that us and russia will be with you forever


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## applesauce

gambit said:


> That is based upon the assumption that the West will remain static, which is unlikely. I have said it elsewhere and I will repeat it here: That there is no such thing as 'military technology' but rather it is about the adoption and adaptation of technology to military uses. These adoptions and adaptations may occur ahead of civilian use perhaps due to special circumstances, such as war, but generally it is the civilian sector that will innovate. The US Dod DARPA organization does not produce anything but only provide funding and direction for projects and that relies upon the dynamicism of the civilian marketplace to make possible those projects. In this, as long as the US continues to fund these special projects, it is unlikely that China will achieve parity with US on the 'military technology' front.



actually no, assumptions that china in the military and financial front will be near the us by 2040-50 is not based on a static west, but rather based on current growth rates for both, by that time china's GDP will be much closer to the US than it is now and hence far more money to spend and with developed infrastructure, of course this is assuming nothing major happens to either side. thus meaning more money for R and D, with comparable number of researchers and similar facilities with large amounts of money the end result will be a department that will produce things rather than just copy. i do agree that the private sector have to take on the responsibility to innovate (they do it better) but there are efforts. right now the private sector is not up to the challenge due to lack of expertise and they cannot compete with western/military yet, private sectors generally also have a non-military side to them. but in time the government will start to encourage them, it is wide known that china likes to encourage their own companies, the passenger planes and civilian copters are just a start, they will have dual uses. all i can say is give it time, as far as i see it the direction is correct for now.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Russia is not happy with India since they back stabbed Russia and Took , Nuclear deal with US ... 

I mean how can you backstab your best ally Russia , they have you all these air planes, and fighter training and missiles and you thanked them by ... taking deal from their cold war foe ? 

 Russian must be heart broken , and they need a true frind like China now .. and Pakistan

Reported On The Hindu : Front Page News : Wednesday, October 14, 2009
_On the flight into Moscow, Indian officials had admitted to a &#8220;sense of drifting away on both sides.&#8221; It was only a perception, they hastened to add, yet they had no answers to why such a perception must undermine a relationship they said was strong and based on high levels of trust. The unease was evident in Moscow too, with the intelligentsia &#8212; the media, security analysts, policy wonks, etc., &#8212; nearly unanimous that India-Russia relations, never the same after the break up of the Soviet Union, had suffered more recently from India&#8217;s &#8220;*obsessive*&#8221; engagement of the United States, and Russia, in turn looking elsewhere to consolidate its business and strategic interests.[/I]

Russia + China + Pakistan (The new Mega Powers?) who would have imagined it 20 years ago , day would come when Russia would give Pakistan engines for JF17 THUNDER_


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## MZUBAIR

a1b2c145 said:


> play with wolfs,
> 
> you guys back up pakstain while US and russia will support us, we will win, play with money



US is with for his concerns.
U dont have any western technology except Mirage 2K.

Lockhead refused u to support in LCA.

*US friendship only depends on its intrust.*

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## Arsalan

well it is quite foolish to think that you can tie up russia and US in one relationship. i agree that it is money that talks for india but still making an alliance including Russia and US joining together is easier siad then done. also keep that in mind that China Russian and Pakistan seem o be a more practicle option then Russia US and India!

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

I think decision of MMRCA will be a very tough to take for Indian government as well. Western options, US options and Russian option... Which one to take and which one to leave.


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think decision of MMRCA will be a very tough to take for Indian government as well. Western options, US options and Russian option... Which one to take and which one to leave.



I think the real competition is between US and Russia.Cuz there has to be one choice either switch to US for tech, or to stay on board with Russia. West doesn't stand much chance


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## PakShaheen79

hasnain0099 said:


> I think the real competition is between US and Russia.Cuz there has to be one choice either switch to US for tech, or to stay on board with Russia. West doesn't stand much chance



But I think in given circumstances West has biggest probability as India will make both Russian and US understand that they will buy more from them later on keeping both of them with India.
But I think right now it is very difficult for India to ignore US. Strategically, politically and technically it will be a very tough decision to take.


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## SBD-3

yap agreed its more of a political than technical decision


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## Wingman

PakShaheen79 said:


> What if China also accelerate funding into defense projects more than US. If we look at last 10 years i think technological differences between US and China has decreased not increased. In 1980s China was busy with 3rd gen fighters whereas US had initiated 5th gen fighter programs... After 2000 we saw US just began inducting 5th gen fighters and China has also started work on them. It is still some 10 years behind but within next 5-7 years we will witness both US and China doing extensive R & D around 6th gen programs.
> 
> I think space is an area where US will enjoy technological edge for longer than aviation. Eurpoe and China will catch US in next decade in aviation but space is one place where there is no competitor for NASA; neither in East nor in West.



In my opinion China will hold world economy in coming decade, the reason is that Chian has launched its cheap product by careful analysis of the countries infact they introduced products in relation to the buying power of the people, for every social set up of every country... In pakistan every where China da Maal is being sold it seems that in Eid ul Azha, Chinese Bakraaz will be introduced..


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## PakShaheen79

dreamer said:


> In my opinion China will hold world economy in coming decade, the reason is that Chian has launched its cheap product by careful analysis of the countries infact they introduced products in relation to the buying power of the people, for every social set up of every country... In pakistan every where China da Maal is being sold it seems that in Eid ul Azha, *Chinese Bakraaz will be introduced..*



will our Mullahs will validate them as hilal...


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## Kharian_Beast

I have some good news...

FC-20 prototype J-10B has passed all of it's technical and aerial trials, proven it's new user interface and suites, and will be coming to the PAF with an advanced Chinese engine which will undergo serial production in 2013. There are only minor delays in a supposed variant of WS-10 which has been tossed, is currently being tested. Airframe is made with more composite materials and the payload has increased. Also CFT's have been successfully tested and will also be a part of the initial 36 FC-20 package which will come with A-2-G and A-2-A munitions such as a new PLAAF ramjet bvr missile and of course SD-10. 

Here is the best part... FC-20 is coming with ToT and there will be maintenance facilities and also some production capabilities which will keep this bird in service for at least 30 years. 

It is also confirmed baat that FC-20 is not J-10A and China will be undertaking a MLU close to FC-20 standards in about 10 years when the PLAAF will have seriously ramped up J-10 production as they want in ideal terms at least 600 J-10B flying and all their old J-10A will have undergone the same upgrade as PAF's FC-20's except for certain western components which the PAF will supposedly obtain. 

Also the RADAR was decided to be a high performing PESA radar rather than AESA which makes sense, as these would increase the cost of each fighter by at least 20-25&#37;. There will already be Chinese awacs providing long range coverage, Pakistan is not the size of the US or Russia so the PAF will 99% not get AESA in FC-20.

It is supposedly going to be marketed against Rafale, Typhoon and other Western 4.5 gen fighters in a way which China says it has not done before and many air forces who would have bought MiG or Lockheed will get J-10A export variants. PAF and PLAAF will be the only nations flying the J-10B for foreseeable future.

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## Kharian_Beast

Sources are not official PLAAF or PAF but certain information presented has been leaked from PLAAF. Take them at face value or don't.


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## Kharian_Beast

I am also assuming FC-20 upgrades like IRST and other capabilities will be seen on a JF-17 future block upgrade along with airframe enhancements, radar and suites upgrade.Supposedly that is going to take place halfway through production probably 5-8 years after induction of first squadron.


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## SBD-3

> Here is the best part... FC-20 is coming with ToT and there will be maintenance facilities and also some production capabilities which will keep this bird in service for at least 30 years.


I think I heard it as well in moin ansari's column. Yap you are right J-10A will be exported after modifications not J10B. J-10B makes sense for PAF as it shares a lot with Thunder and the F-16 look also indicates PAF help. But if PAF is gonna have it with ToT then what about this


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Very beautiful bird, and would look nice in Pakistan colors , when are pakistan expected to get the 36 J10's they would definitly be a great lead fighter in squadrons with JF17 Thunders offering support roles 

It all makes sense greatly


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## PAFAce

Kharian_Beast said:


> I have some good news...
> 
> FC-20 prototype J-10B has passed all of it's technical and aerial trials, proven it's new user interface and suites, and will be coming to the PAF with an advanced Chinese engine which will undergo serial production in 2013. There are only minor delays in a supposed variant of WS-10 which has been tossed, is currently being tested. Airframe is made with more composite materials and the payload has increased. Also CFT's have been successfully tested and will also be a part of the initial 36 FC-20 package which will come with A-2-G and A-2-A munitions such as a new PLAAF ramjet bvr missile and of course SD-10.
> 
> Here is the best part... FC-20 is coming with ToT and there will be maintenance facilities and also some production capabilities which will keep this bird in service for at least 30 years.
> 
> It is also confirmed baat that FC-20 is not J-10A and China will be undertaking a MLU close to FC-20 standards in about 10 years when the PLAAF will have seriously ramped up J-10 production as they want in ideal terms at least 600 J-10B flying and all their old J-10A will have undergone the same upgrade as PAF's FC-20's except for certain western components which the PAF will supposedly obtain.
> 
> Also the RADAR was decided to be a high performing PESA radar rather than AESA which makes sense, as these would increase the cost of each fighter by at least 20-25&#37;. There will already be Chinese awacs providing long range coverage, Pakistan is not the size of the US or Russia so the PAF will 99% not get AESA in FC-20.
> 
> It is supposedly going to be marketed against Rafale, Typhoon and other Western 4.5 gen fighters in a way which China says it has not done before and many air forces who would have bought MiG or Lockheed will get J-10A export variants. PAF and PLAAF will be the only nations flying the J-10B for foreseeable future.


Most of what you mentioned here seems quite possible, other than ToT, of course. But when you think about it, even ToT doesn't seem too improbable, I mean this is a Sino-Pak deal we're talking about, if the ZDK-03 AWACs can come with ToT, why not the FC-20. I guess that your sources are close to the mark, if not on it.

What added credibility to your information was the bit regarding PESA vs AESA for the FC-20. It makes sense for the PESA to be integrated, at least for now. AESA could be a possible addition down the road, since the Chinese claim to be very close to AESA production for fighter aircraft, but the technology is currently probably not mature enough. Which brings me to the engine. That was the most doubtful part of your report. I don't know how far the Chinese are on engine development, but I thought the first true Chinese turbofan engines won't be ready until around 2014. 

In any case, thanks for the information. We'll get a much better picture of what the FC-20 will be when concrete information re: the J-10B is available.

*Edit*
Missed the part about the Ramjet BVR AAM (thanks *ice_man*). Would definitely wait for more news on that too.


----------



## ice_man

@Kharian 

you mentioned a ramjet capable BVR what is the nae specifications of it any idea...what you said i wish icuold take it at face value but i have taken too much at face value on this forum only to find out it was someone's wishful thinking.....9 i mean no disrespect bro but this usually what happens) 

and when will the PAF pilots get strapped up first time in a FC-20 seat for trial and evaluation anytime frame....like the time frame that by 2013 we will have 36 J-10Bs


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## SBD-3

I have a sneaky feeling about the PAF's decision to acquire block 52. I can assure you one thing that PAF will acquire whatever available from US.I feel something.....can disclose here.... too sensitive


----------



## Fennecus

Pakistan will most likely be the only foreign nation to be able to purchase the J-10B.


----------



## MZUBAIR

Fennecus said:


> Pakistan will most likely be the only foreign nation to be able to purchase the J-10B.



Yeah, but we are waiting for it with new wngine (W-10) and AESA or PESA radar.

At the moment no one knows abt its specs n ability.


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

Pak china relationship is heading towards the u s / britain like relationship when it comes to millitary hardware---it is a big big step for china to start sharing its top notch aircraft with pak air force---but then paf have also done their bit to deserve the procurement. Without the paf's indulgence, there maynot have been an J 10B / FC 20 in the making---.

Assets and abilities will become known when the planes are in the delivery mode.

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## Stealth

can anyone explain about the J10 B generation ? its 4.5 or 4 ?


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## IceCold

Stealth said:


> can anyone explain about the J10 B generation ? its 4.5 or 4 ?



It definitely would be 4.5.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Fennecus said:


> Pakistan will most likely be the only foreign nation to be able to purchase the J-10B.



whats this on its nozel and fitted to tail.


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## Fennecus

danger-zone said:


> whats this on its nozel and fitted to tail.



It's called a spin chute, helping the pilot recover if he enters a flat spin.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Fennecus said:


> It's called a spin chute, helping the pilot recover if he enters a flat spin.



hmmm so j10 here checking its TVC engine..nice plz put some videos in which j10 is shown using its nozel.


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## PakShaheen79

danger-zone said:


> hmmm so j10 here checking its TVC engine..nice plz put some videos in which j10 is shown using its nozel.



Don't think it has anything to do with TVC.



> *AFTI/F-16 Spin chute close-up*
> 
> A close-up photo of the spin chute mounted on the rear fuselage of the AFTI F-16, a safety device designed to prevent the loss of aircraft in spin conditions. Under some circumstances, pilots cannot recover from spins using normal controls. It these instances, the spin chute is deployed, thus "breaking" the spin and enabling the pilot to recover. The spin chute is held in a metal cylinder attached to the AFTI F-16 by four tubes, a structure strong enough to withstand the shock of the spin chute opening. Unlike the air probe in the last photo, spin chutes are not standard equipment on research or prototype aircraft but are commonly attached expressly for actual spin tests.
> F-16AFTI ECN-22193: AFTI/F-16 Spin chute close-up


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## PakShaheen79

Kharian_Beast said:


> I have some good news...
> 
> FC-20 prototype J-10B has passed all of it's technical and aerial trials, proven it's new user interface and suites, and will be coming to the PAF with an advanced Chinese engine which will undergo serial production in 2013. There are only minor delays in a supposed variant of WS-10 which has been tossed, is currently being tested. Airframe is made with more composite materials and the payload has increased. Also CFT's have been successfully tested and will also be a part of the initial 36 FC-20 package which will come with A-2-G and A-2-A munitions such as a new PLAAF ramjet bvr missile and of course SD-10.
> 
> Here is the best part... FC-20 is coming with ToT and there will be maintenance facilities and also some production capabilities which will keep this bird in service for at least 30 years.
> 
> It is also confirmed baat that FC-20 is not J-10A and China will be undertaking a MLU close to FC-20 standards in about 10 years when the PLAAF will have seriously ramped up J-10 production as they want in ideal terms at least 600 J-10B flying and all their old J-10A will have undergone the same upgrade as PAF's FC-20's except for certain western components which the PAF will supposedly obtain.
> 
> Also the RADAR was decided to be a high performing PESA radar rather than AESA which makes sense, as these would increase the cost of each fighter by at least 20-25%. There will already be Chinese awacs providing long range coverage, Pakistan is not the size of the US or Russia so the PAF will 99% not get AESA in FC-20.
> 
> It is supposedly going to be marketed against Rafale, Typhoon and other Western 4.5 gen fighters in a way which China says it has not done before and many air forces who would have bought MiG or Lockheed will get J-10A export variants. PAF and PLAAF will be the only nations flying the J-10B for foreseeable future.



This is indeed encouraging but seriously i am little skeptical about that Engine thing which you mentioned here.


----------



## Storm Force

Don,t be surprised if PAF cut the Thunders nos to 150 max and inducts far more J10s from 2016 onwards. 

The J10/FC20 has the look and feel of a true 4 gen fighter. Its design looks very aerodynamic similar to Typhoon and those canards add a feel for true 4.5 gen fighter. 

I firml;y believe china,s missles and radar tech in 5 years will match Russia,s and Europe/west. They are stil behind in engine tech though stil relying on Russian engines for most of their fighters including Thunder

If the chinease succesfully build their own TVC engine by 2016-2020 then PAF will have the ready made answer to su30mki at under $40m each.


----------



## PakShaheen79

Storm Force said:


> *Don,t be surprised if PAF cut the Thunders nos to 150 max and inducts far more J10s from 2016 onwards. *
> 
> The J10/FC20 has the look and feel of a true 4 gen fighter. Its design looks very aerodynamic similar to Typhoon and those canards add a feel for true 4.5 gen fighter.
> 
> I firml;y believe china,s missles and radar tech in 5 years will match Russia,s and Europe/west. They are stil behind in engine tech though stil relying on Russian engines for most of their fighters including Thunder
> 
> If the chinease succesfully build their own TVC engine by 2016-2020 then PAF will have the ready made answer to su30mki at under $40m each.



I think Thunder number has been fixed at 250 for now and will remain so. As far as FC-20 is concerned it is still not there mean it is under development whereas Thunders are in production. Now as FC-20 goes through various stages of production Thunder will be moving from one block to another. PAF has a urgent requirement for a work horse; a plane capable enough to be depend on and cheap enough to be inducted in numbers. JF-17 Thunder fit perfectly in this role whereas FC-20 is next big thing after Block 52 F-16s...so naturally PAF will procure them in small batches over a large number of time to keep budgetary constraints under control.


----------



## raveolution

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think Thunder number has been fixed at 250 for now and will remain so. As far as FC-20 is concerned it is still not there mean it is under development whereas Thunders are in production. Now as FC-20 goes through various stages of production Thunder will be moving from one block to another. PAF has a urgent requirement for a work horse; a plane capable enough to be depend on and cheap enough to be inducted in numbers. JF-17 Thunder fit perfectly in this role whereas FC-20 is next big thing after Block 52 F-16s...so naturally PAF will procure them in small batches over a large number of time to keep budgetary constraints under control.



Hi Pakshaheen.The current order for the JF-17 stands at 150 for now, production of which will continue till 2015. The eventual requirement is stated to be at 250-300 but no firm orders have been made. So there is still an opportunity for the PAF to cut down JF-17 orders and order more J-10B's, if it is feels the need to do so and are impressed with the J-10B, the first of which should be delivered to the PAF around 2014.

JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## PakShaheen79

raveolution said:


> Hi Pakshaheen.The current order for the JF-17 stands at 150 for now, production of which will continue till 2015. The eventual requirement is stated to be at 250-300 but no firm orders have been made. So there is still an opportunity for the PAF to cut down JF-17 orders and order more J-10B's, if it is feels the need to do so and are impressed with the J-10B, the first of which should be delivered to the PAF around 2014.
> 
> JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I can even tell you that 150 are not confirmed yet lol. Only 42 are confirmed to complete first batch. Please stay away from Wiki as much as possible


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> I can even tell you that 150 are not confirmed yet lol. Only 42 are confirmed to complete first batch. Please stay away from Wiki as much as possible



I Think Thunder will be evolved to Grippen standards and J-10B to Typhoon. That will make PAF a deadly force


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## yesboss

[/IMG]



[/IMG]



[/IMG]



[/IMG]

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## DANGER-ZONE

PakShaheen79 said:


> Don't think it has anything to do with TVC.



then how an aircraft can spin flat.?
when aircraft do extra ordianry manuevers,then chances r high for uncontrollable spins.to avoid this,testing PT r fitted with spin chuts so they recover the spin and dont cauze a loss of PT.
thats why they r not fitted in ordinary birds.ive seen a program on it on Discovery
thats why that j10 is fitted with a chute cuz it is doing somthing unusual,clear from the pic,full after burn with blue flame,vertical climbing and LE Flaps r deployed


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## PakShaheen79

danger-zone said:


> then how an aircraft can spin flat.?
> when aircraft do extra ordianry manuevers,then chances r high for uncontrollable spins.to avoid this,testing PT r fitted with spin chuts so they recover the spin and dont cauze a loss of PT.
> thats why they r not fitted in ordinary birds.ive seen a program on it on Discovery
> thats why that j10 is fitted with a chute cuz it is doing somthing unusual,clear from the pic,full after burn with blue flame,vertical climbing and LE Flaps r deployed



Yeah but that is one condition of it not the only one. Me and Fennecus posted two pics of US jets with Spin Chuts none of them has TVC with their engine. So what is the point of testing it there?
And please read below text i posted above once again...


> A close-up photo of the spin chute mounted on the rear fuselage of the AFTI F-16, a safety device designed to prevent the loss of aircraft in spin conditions. Under some circumstances, pilots cannot recover from spins using normal controls.* It these instances, the spin chute is deployed, thus "breaking" the spin and enabling the pilot to recover. *The spin chute is held in a metal cylinder attached to the AFTI F-16 by four tubes, a structure strong enough to withstand the shock of the spin chute opening. *Unlike the air probe in the last photo, spin chutes are not standard equipment on research or prototype aircraft but are commonly attached expressly for actual spin tests.*


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## xukxuk

add 2 more j10b photo 
these two photos haven't been seen in this forum
hope you guys like it
one step closer to fourth generation fighter aircraft

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## a1b2c145

hasnain0099 said:


> I think I heard it as well in moin ansari's column. Yap you are right J-10A will be exported after modifications not J10B. J-10B makes sense for PAF as it shares a lot with Thunder and the F-16 look also indicates PAF help. But if PAF is gonna have it with ToT then what about this



so&#65292;what is that ? that's not true ,false


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## SBD-3

a1b2c145 said:


> so&#65292;what is that ? that's not true ,false


you can dream while your asleep


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## aimarraul

A Secret Anechoic Chamber for Chinese Fighters

Beijing, Jan 04 (China Defense Mashup Report by Johnathan Weng) &#8212; This photo displays a semi-opening anechoic microwave chamber for PLA Air Force Fighter dome and fire-control radar studies. The exact location of this chamber is unknown, but the pyramidal RAM and a combat aircraft nose dome can be seen. Perhaps this chanmber is used for J-11B fighter fire-control radar development.

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## SBD-3

interesting indeed............................


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## MALIKATIF

Neo said:


> This is a fresh release Mastan, PFF special.
> 
> Thanks to Munir!
> 
> http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=8869512750983413810
> 
> :ChinaFlag: :flag:



CAN ANY ONE TELL ME JF-17 AND J-10 COMPARISON WITH AIRCRAFTS


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## Arsalan

MALIKATIF said:


> CAN ANY ONE TELL ME JF-17 AND J-10 COMPARISON WITH AIRCRAFTS



THIS IS SOMETHING YOU CAN FIND EVERY WHERE IN THIS FORUM. 
PERHAPS IT IS SOMETHING THAT DONT ENDS UP RESULTING MUCH GOOD! I MEAN IF WE CAN JUST DISCUSS THE SPECS AND SHARE TECHNICAL KNOWLEDGE ABOUT A SYSTEM WE USUALLY GET MORE CREDIABLE INFORMATION WHEREAAS WHEN THREADS TURN INTO A *A VS B* SORT OF THING IT USUALLY TURNS FANBOISH!!

AND YES, I HOPE AFTER GOING THROUGH THE ENTIRE POST YOU WOULD HAVE REALIZED THAT HOW AKWARD IT IT TO GO THROUGH THIS STYLE OR FONT OF POST. BROTHER KINDLY AVOIDE THIS AND JUST STICK TO normal lowercase font ,

regards!
REGARDS!


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## aimarraul



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## Arsalan

what is that thing around the engine,, 

sort of some grip or stand!! can anyone tell what it is???

regards!


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## Arsalan

these seem to be the pics of older J10 or what you can say J10 A as they do not have DSI intaake and the shark fin tail housing some sensors is also missing!

regards!


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## PAFAce

Seems like flight testing of some sort of EW/ECM pod. Radar Warning Receiver perhaps?
*arsalanaslam123*, it's most assuredly a J-10A.
*aimarraul*, can you provide more information regarding these pictures?

*Edit*
900 posts! _Man_ I talk too much.


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## aimarraul

PAFAce said:


> Seems like flight testing of some sort of EW/ECM pod. Radar Warning Receiver perhaps?
> *arsalanaslam123*, it's most assuredly a J-10A.
> *aimarraul*, can you provide more information regarding these pictures?
> 
> *Edit*
> 900 posts! _Man_ I talk too much.



spin chute&#65292;just started this test since early this year 
J-10B is already equipped with different RWR

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## wangrong

arsalanaslam123 said:


> what is that thing around the engine,,
> 
> sort of some grip or stand!! can anyone tell what it is???
> 
> regards!


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## wangrong




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## Arsalan

thanks for the pics wangrong but still they need clarification on what it is doing on the J10??

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

PAFAce said:


> Seems like flight testing of some sort of EW/ECM pod. Radar Warning Receiver perhaps?
> *arsalanaslam123*, it's most assuredly a J-10A.
> *aimarraul*, can you provide more information regarding these pictures?
> 
> *Edit*
> 900 posts! _Man_ I talk too much.



*Spin Chute*
A safety device designed to prevent the loss of aircraft in spin conditions. Under some circumstances, pilots cannot recover from spins using normal controls. It these instances, the spin chute is deployed, thus "breaking" the spin and enabling the pilot to recover.

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## aimarraul

arsalanaslam123 said:


> thanks for the pics wangrong but still they need clarification on what it is doing on the J10??
> 
> regards!



it use in the spin/stall training ,can help the jet out of stall status when the recovery fail


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## wangrong

arsalanaslam123 said:


> thanks for the pics wangrong but still they need clarification on what it is doing on the J10??
> 
> regards!



J10#1003 is a testing bird

When the airplane enters the tail spin time, turns on the tail spin recovery umbrella. The airplane recovers the tail spin under umbrella's function to use 



all new birds must do this testing before the Initial Operational Capability (IOC)

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## Chanakyaa

IceCold said:


> It definitely would be 4.5.



Can u plz clear the diff between gen 4 and gen 4.5 Aircrafts.
Thanks.


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## BlackenTheSky

is j10 a 5th generation aircraft..??


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## yesboss

dez said:


> is j10 a 5th generation aircraft..??



NO. It's a true multirole 4th generation jet fighter,being upgraded upto the level of a 4.5th generation.





[/IMG]


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## PakShaheen79

XiNiX said:


> Can u plz clear the diff between gen 4 and gen 4.5 Aircrafts.
> Thanks.



Mainly,
*4th Gen.*

-BVR
-IFR
-TVC (Optional)
-FBW
-Data Link
-ECM Suite
-Super Sonic

*4.5 Gen *
(All what 4th gen need plus following)
-Super cruise
-AESA Radar
-Super Maneuverability (with or without TVC) 
-Increased Stealth / RCS reduction 
-Composites
-Advanced ECM/ECCM 
etc. etc.

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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> Mainly,
> *4th Gen.*
> 
> -BVR
> -IFR
> -TVC (Optional)
> -FBW
> -Data Link
> -ECM Suite
> -Super Sonic
> 
> *4.5 Gen *
> (All what 4th gen need plus following)
> -*Super cruise*
> -*AESA Radar*
> -*Super Maneuverability* (with or without TVC)
> -Increased Stealth / RCS reduction
> -Composites
> -*Advanced ECM/ECCM *
> etc. etc.



I think this configuration is of 4.5++ rather than 4.5


----------



## xukxuk

hasnain0099 said:


> I think this configuration is of 4.5++ rather than 4.5



i think it's not really nessecary to seperate 4.5 or 4.5+ or 4.5++
they are basicly not much difference so it's meaning less to compare them
and a lot of time it's only because of personal feeling makes it one + or two +

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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> I think this configuration is of 4.5++ rather than 4.5



there is no concrete specs mention for differentiating between what you call 4.5 nad 4.5++. basically it is just like if it is good 4.5 generation plane people mentioned it as 4.5+!! no realy difference can be pointed on basis of spec. the main features of the 4.5 generation plane are actualy rightly mentioned by Mr. PakSaheen and that is what it is, nothing more nothng less...
J10 at them moment in a good 4 th generaation plane and upgradation to 4.5 generation is being worked on. if you see the J10B it is actually a step forward toward that mark and we may see a 4.5 generation plane in shape of the FC20!

regards!


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## Arsalan

wangrong said:


> J10#1003 is a testing bird
> 
> When the airplane enters the tail spin time, turns on the tail spin recovery umbrella. The airplane recovers the tail spin under umbrella's function to use
> 
> 
> 
> all new birds must do this testing before the Initial Operational Capability (IOC)




thanks for explaining it...

regards!


----------



## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> .
> J10 at them moment in a good 4 th generaation plane and upgradation to 4.5 generation is being worked on. if you see the J10B it is actually a step forward toward that mark and we may see a 4.5 generation plane in shape of the FC20!
> 
> regards!


I think we would be able to comment on it as the configurations come out.............


----------



## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> I think we would be able to comment on it as the configurations come out.............



the specs of J10 are know and the plane is a fourth generation plane!
the upgradation in J10B such as ECM systems and DSI intakes are concidered a step toward the 4.5 generation version...
yes we dont know the specs of FC20 but as rumored, AESA radar, TV technology and SC makes it a 4.5 generation plane. although you are right that we can not confirm it as far as the plane rolls out but this is what the news repots claim!!

regards!


----------



## Stealth

J10B loOks HOT! but twinseater


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## PakShaheen79

Stealth said:


> J10B loOks HOT! but *twinseater *



Bro I think you have mixed J-10B and J-10S. J-10S is twin seat where as J-10B is Single seat like J-10A.
*J-10B*


----------



## PakShaheen79

hasnain0099 said:


> I think this configuration is of 4.5++ rather than 4.5



I posted difference based on induction of technologies in two categories. If we go by your logic, then there will be no difference between 4th and 4.5th gen fighter as you have exclude almost all new technologies from the list. Reduction in RCS is nothing new. AESA, Super Cruise are new tech thing. Hope you understand now.

BTW, What 4.5++ thing is? Any example with specs.


----------



## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> I posted difference based on induction of technologies in two categories. If we go by your logic, then there will be no difference between 4th and 4.5th gen fighter as you have exclude almost all new technologies from the list. Reduction in RCS is nothing new. AESA, Super Cruise are new tech thing. Hope you understand now.
> 
> BTW, What 4.5++ thing is? Any example with specs.



What i ve read about 4.5++ on different forums is that this configuration is really closed to a fifth generation fighter with 4.5++ configuration.....IMHO the only thing left out is stealth design like raptor......At current MKI, SH ,Strike Eagles,Grippen and Viper D, Alongwith Mig-29 OVT,SU-30,J-11 and J-10B can be considered 4.5 Gen Aircrafts where as Grippen NG, Typhoon, Rafale, are 4.5++ and Desert falcons,SU-35 and Mig-35 can be considered 4.5+ class Aircraft.....feel free to disagree


----------



## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> I posted difference based on induction of technologies in two categories. If we go by your logic, then there will be no difference between 4th and 4.5th gen fighter as you have exclude almost all new technologies from the list. Reduction in RCS is nothing new. AESA, Super Cruise are new tech thing. Hope you understand now.
> 
> BTW, What 4.5++ thing is? Any example with specs.



spot on friend!!
it is just a way to differ beteen a good 4.5 generation plane and an average 4.5 generation plane. it is nothing theoratical. as far as i get it both these have the same specs, the ones you mentioned earlier, the difference is how good are there systems and this makes people call them 4.5, 4.5+ or 4.5++ and so on...
i agree with the spec you mentioned for 4.5 in gernal!

regards!


----------



## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> *What i ve read about 4.5++ on different forums is that this configuration is really closed to a fifth generation fighter with 4.5++ configuration*.....IMHO the only thing left out is stealth design like raptor......At current MKI, SH ,Strike Eagles,Grippen and Viper D, Alongwith Mig-29 OVT,SU-30,J-11 and J-10B can be considered 4.5 Gen Aircrafts where as Grippen NG, Typhoon, Rafale, are 4.5++ and Desert falcons,SU-35 and Mig-35 can be considered 4.5+ class Aircraft.....feel free to disagree



the same hold true for 4.5 generation over all..
it is just thatif a plane have beter engine, AESA radar, and all that stuff that pakSaheen mentioned better then the other one we give it a *" + "* making it 4.5+. nothing theoratical i guess..

regards!


----------



## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> spot on friend!!
> it is just a way to differ beteen a good 4.5 generation plane and an average 4.5 generation plane. it is nothing theoratical. as far as i get it both these have the same specs, the ones you mentioned earlier, *the difference is how good are there systems a*nd this makes people call them 4.5, 4.5+ or 4.5++ and so on...
> i agree with the spec you mentioned for 4.5 in gernal!
> 
> regards!



 It will again lead to VS debate among 4.5 Gen fighters to be qualified as 4.5++. Apart from Range of weapons nothing can be said 100% on any other specs. Even US companies never reveal true range of their radars..so it becomes pretty difficult to compare two 4.5 gen fighters on paper to declare one of them as 4.5++.


----------



## TOPGUN

Any new news on the fc-20 ? haven't heard anything in a while nor any new pic's!


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## PakShaheen79

TOPGUN said:


> Any new news on the fc-20 ? haven't heard anything in a while nor any new pic's!



Ahhhh.... I think we must seek news for Thunders before we look for an update on FC-20 as its time line is far from now. 

BTW, Only god knows what FC-20 actually would be. J-10A with advanced avionics, J-10B or upgraded J-10B?


----------



## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> It will again lead to VS debate among 4.5 Gen fighters to be qualified as 4.5++. Apart from Range of weapons nothing can be said 100% on any other specs. Even US companies never reveal true range of their radars..*so it becomes pretty difficult to compare two 4.5 gen fighters on paper to declare one of them as 4.5++*.



yes and that is why i suggest that it is not a god idea to make such categories. let them be the 4 and the 4.5 generation and avvoid the + / - signs,,,

regards!


----------



## PakShaheen79

Some More Pics of J-10B
----------------------------

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## SBD-3

TOPGUN said:


> Any new news on the fc-20 ? haven't heard anything in a while nor any new pic's!



its is still in testing phase.....It will take about 2 Years that we start hearing about it on regularbases


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## yesboss

[/IMG]


----------



## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> its is still in testing phase.....It will take about 2 Years that we start hearing about it on regularbases



true indeed,, the FC20 plane will take some time before it come into lime light.. specially if we take the rumors about the AESA radar, TV engine and probably the SC ability to be true then there is some work to be done yet.

regards!


----------



## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> true indeed,, the FC20 plane will take some time before it come into lime light.. specially if we take the rumors about the AESA radar, *TV engine* and probably the SC ability to be true then there is some work to be done yet.
> 
> regards!



Yes TV engine is on the cards and FC-20 will probably have WS-10A and later blocks to have new gen WS-15. But given the AESA, the weight will significantly increase and given the single engine design, realistically I don't see FC-20 coming with SC not until twin engine configuration emerges such as rumored Super-10.


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## Chanakyaa

PakShaheen79 said:


> Some More Pics of J-10B
> ----------------------------



The second pics resembles like F16 , the air Intake ... isnt it ?


----------



## wangrong



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## yesboss

[/IMG]


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## xukxuk

XiNiX said:


> The second pics resembles like F16 , the air Intake ... isnt it ?



very different
here is a f16 intake


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## kungpaochicken



Reactions: Like Like:
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## naseebkhanniazi

nice pic's if you have more then post plz
or
specialy j10s in action pic's

Reactions: Like Like:
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## xukxuk

naseebkhanniazi said:


> nice pic's if you have more then post plz
> or
> specialy j10s in action pic's



here are 3 pictures about j10s
wish you like them


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## PakShaheen79

Some more for eyes of members...


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## PakShaheen79

Watch the beast closely 


---------- Post added at 01:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 AM ----------

And two more...


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## SBD-3

yaar sirf photos he reh gyee hain kaya????????????


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## wangrong



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## MAB

keep it up guys. Very nice pictures


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## conworldus

I thought Pakistan was getting J-10B only. Are there more J-10B pictures?


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## SBD-3

conworldus said:


> I thought Pakistan was getting J-10B only. Are there more J-10B pictures?


lets hope some Chinese friends are waiting with their cameras near Chengdu Air Base.


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## Chanakyaa

Glorious Pics.


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## sancho

hasnain0099 said:


> Yes TV engine is on the cards and FC-20 will probably have WS-10A and later blocks to have new gen WS-15. But given the AESA, the weight will significantly increase and given the single engine design, realistically I don't see FC-20 coming with SC not until twin engine configuration emerges such as rumored Super-10.


Why? Gripen NG has an empty weight of 7100Kg and a dry thrust of 62,3 kN and is reported to have SC, will J10 be so much heavier?
Is TVC tested on the WS 10?


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## Stealth

*Dont like J10A ........... love J10B look more aggressive and HOT! 

PAF going for J10A or J10B ??*


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## aimarraul

Stealth said:


> *Dont like J10A ........... love J10B look more aggressive and HOT!
> 
> PAF going for J10A or J10B ??*



i doubt J10A can meet PAF's requirements


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## SBD-3

aimarraul said:


> i doubt J10A can meet PAF's requirements



I agree.......PAF would n't be so patient if we were to get J-10A


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## PakShaheen79

Stealth said:


> *Dont like J10A ........... love J10B look more aggressive and HOT!
> 
> PAF going for J10A or J10B ??*



Well On official PAF calender 2009 there is J-10A next to description of FC-20. So it may be J-10A but I think J-10B came after those calenders were printed.(Late 2008)


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> Well On official PAF calender 2009 there is J-10A next to description of FC-20. So it may be J-10A but I think J-10B came after those calenders were printed.(Late 2008)



J-10A can't be better than Falcons. It should be J-10B otherwise PAF would've exercised the option for Vipers


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## Stealth

hasnain0099 said:


> J-10A can't be better than Falcons. It should be J-10B otherwise PAF would've exercised the option for Vipers



Fully agreed even i dont think so J10B better thn F16... F16 is pure battle proven and most high performance bird in the world.


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## PakShaheen79

hasnain0099 said:


> J-10A can't be better than Falcons. It should be J-10B otherwise PAF would've exercised the option for Vipers



Brother every matter must be seen keeping geo politics of world. J-10B are the best we can afford and ask out great friends (China) to make it as good as they can.

Number of vipers are not very big (36) whereas according to Pakdef PAF is in need of More than 100 J-10s will be procured after first 36 can't say if US would have given us 100 Vipers (New One)...


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> Brother every matter must be seen keeping geo politics of world. J-10B are the best we can afford and ask out great friends (China) to make it as good as they can.
> 
> Number of vipers are not very big (36) whereas according to Pakdef PAF is in need of More than 100 J-10s will be procured after first 36 can't say if US would have given us 100 Vipers (New One)...



but one thing must be kept in mind is that we could also buy J-10s after 16 Vipers. And we also had Grippen on offer. I doubt PAF would drop that beauty in favor of J-10A. It gotta be a J-10B.


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## truepakistani17

as far as i know it wont be the J10A. infact what we call the FC20 is not even the J10B as the specs of FC20 may well be further modified if required after the idaina MRCA deal in finalized.


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## wangrong



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## monitor

fc-20 will be custom build for pakistan ?or it will be build in pakistan by pakistan as the indian doing with their su-30miki by instaling israeli and french parts.
if not i think pakistan should try to produce some avionics parts in pakistan under licensce from any western company to use in their fc-20 and also for jf-17 and gradualy try to degine and build their own avionics just as the turkey doing for their f-35 beside this it would be wise to even try to produce engine of jf-17 in pakistan under tot from any country


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## wangrong



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## SBD-3

monitor said:


> fc-20 will be custom build for pakistan ?or it will be build in pakistan by pakistan as the indian doing with their su-30miki by instaling israeli and french parts.
> if not i think pakistan should try to produce some avionics parts in pakistan under licensce from any western company to use in their fc-20 and also for jf-17 and gradualy try to degine and build their own avionics just as the turkey doing for their f-35 beside this it would be wise to even try to produce engine of jf-17 in pakistan under tot from any country


There are rumors that it will be coming with ToT , however PAF will be installing western avionics produced under license in these birds, French avionics seem to be the winner in this case


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## deathfromabove

Hui Tong's site has updated J-10B info:
(Initially AESA then to PESA and now X-band AESA!)

The 01/1031 prototype of the new J-10B was unveiled in March 2009, 3 months after its maiden flight in December 2008. This much improved variant features a DSI/bump engine inlet which not only cuts weight but also reduces RCS, after a similar design was first tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. The aircraft also features a J-11B style IRST/LR and a wide-angle holographic HUD. IRST enables passive detection of enemy aircraft, making J-10B more stealthy in combat. Its nose appears flatter too, similar to that of American F-16, and fire-control radar is thought to be an X-band AESA developed by the 607 Institute, the first of such type ever being developed for a Chinese fighter aircraft, giving J-10B a stronger multi-target engagement and ECCM capability. Two large ECM pods are attached under the wings. The tip of vertical tailfin was redesigned as well, featuring a large fairing containing communication and ECM antennas, which resembles that of French Mirage 2000. A rear facing MAWS sensor can be seen underneath the parachute boom. A similar system was tested onboard FC-1/JF-17 as well. All these improvements suggest that J-10B is equipped with a new generation of integrated electronic system, ranging from radar to EW system. The aircraft thus serves likely as a testbed for various advanced avionics onboard the 4th generation J-14. Its mission may be changed from air-superiority to multi-purpose, such as AG or EW. In addition, the aircarft is expected to be powered eventually by an indigenous WS-10A turbofan. Overall J-10B is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60.

Chinese Military Aviation


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## ice_man

ok as for J10As or J-10Bs i just hope we sign the deal soon...maybe at the 60th anniversary of the PLAAF.....we haven't signed the agreement officially yet!!!


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## deathfromabove

All you need to know about J-10B

*The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging*







In December 2008, rumors were rife of the J-10's latest incarnation, the J-10B, had taken off for the first time. Now in April 2009, we see the initial leak of images for this plane. The J-10B appears as the next iteration of China's vaunted 4th Generation fighter and looks to take the J-10 to the 4.5 Generation level.

The differences that have been identified from the earlier J-10 include a DSI intake, similar to the one on the FC-1/JF-17. The nose is now oval, more similar to an F-16's and is slightly canted downwards. An IRST similar to the J-11Bs also feature on top of the nose. Slanted radome paint along with some of the other features suggest an AESA radar.






The J-10B incorporates a new small ECM housing on the vertical stabilizer and this stabilizer also appears to be longer and ending in a "shark-fin". The ECM housing is similar to the housing on the JF-17. The two ventral fins are also extended further and are larger irrespective of the shark-fin. The aerodynamic refinements of the longer vertical stabilizer and the ventral fins appear to be a result of the DSI intakes which create greater lateral forces on the aircraft.

The wide angle HUD featured on the J-11Bs seem to have also appeared on the J-10B. While it cannot be confirmed, it appears that the cockpit itself has been redesigned extensively. Other than the new ECM housing on the vertical stabilizer, new MAWs appear on the tail bump. Just below these, curious breaks appear on the fuselage that some observers are referring to as possible formation lights "slime lights", but expert opinion from a Lockheed Martin source suggest that they are FLIR sensors. A redesigned satellite communication unit appears right behind the cockpit.

A retractable refueling probe is likely, given the development of the J-10 thus far, and is possibly located on the port side, not visible in the latest photographs. The photographs also suggest new under-wing pylons. These appear to be strengthened for a variety of possible uses, ranging from larger drop tanks to ASMs.

The engine is likely to be either a redesigned WS-10A (B?) or possibly the WS-15, a new generation engine currently in advanced development. This would not only have higher thrust than the AL-31s, but also feature TVCs, giving the J-10Bs vaunted agility an even greater boost. The actual engine on the aircraft presently on the released pictures, is the AL-31.

Like the J-10S, a J-10BS is also eventually likely. This would be an advanced trainer with the 360 degree view similar to the J-10S. EW/Wild Weasel variants could also eventually be possible.






*PAF*

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has shown a great deal of interest in the J-10 project as a possible substitute for Western combat aircraft for its high end requirements. The PAF, however, wanted a more modern version. Just as the FC-1s (and before the FC-1, the F-7s) were significantly upgraded due to the PAF's push for improvements, the J-10 appears to be going through a similar phase. The reason for this is that the PAF has a far closer view of Western technologies and trends and thus can provide deeper insight than more insulated Chinese expertise. The J-10B in all likelihood has had major input from the PAF and is the FC-20 that the PAF has ordered.

While there were rumors of the PAF receiving its first J-10s as early as 2009, the purchase has been delayed to 2014/2015. However, there is no doubt that the PAF sees its future inextricably linked to the J-10Bs/FC-20s. Informed sources suggest that PAF is not only looking to purchase, but to set up the necessary infrastructure to maintain and upgrade these birds. According to well informed sources, the aforementioned delay is primarily as a result of engine issues. The AL-31 would create maintenance and logistics problems for the PAF, given the lack of a working relationship with Russia. The WS-10A/B has not met quality standards. This leaves the PAF high and dry for now vis-a-vis the J-10. Their engine options now are to either to wait for a more reliable WS-10A version or to go for the WS-15, a new generation engine with similar dimensions.

The delay in procurement is critical for PAF as it needs a quality high end to counter the larger IAF with her MKIs, Mirage-2000s and MRCA. With a new sensor rich environment dominated by AWACS on both sides and a large number of BVR platforms, higher altitude BVR engagements would become vital. J-10s are ideally suited for such combat given their aerodynamics including low wing loading in an A2A configuration. The instantaneous turn rates achievable on the J-10 (or the Euro canards) are likely to give an advantage in such engagements, as opposed to the high wing loadings on the over-evolved F-16s which were essentially designed for turning dog fights rather than high altitude BVR slash and dash maneuvers.

With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India. Even then, with the 5 present contenders left in the MRCA, only the Eurofighter (assuming AESA radars) would be able to match the J-10 in air-to-air combat.

The PAF is looking for a total of 150 high end aircraft like the F-16 Block 52s and the FC-20 (J-10Bs or J-10Ps). The FC-20s could be procured in greater numbers, depending on relations with the U.S. and the operability of the F-16s. The J-10Bs and the JF-17s make a perfect pair - one ideal for high altitude air superiority and deep strike missions while the other ideal as a true multirole fighter. Where the J-10 lacks in deep strike, the F-16s make up for it. Where the J-10s lack in CAS, the JF-17s make up for it. Where the JF-17 lacks in high altitude BVR engagements, the J-10s make up for it.

The J-10s, F-16s and JF-17s also fit into the AFDP-2019 requirements. The AFDP-2019 is the core document on the strategic planning of Pakistan's armed forces over 15 years. While this document is not available in the public domain, informed sources note that the PAF has been assigned procurement of only single engine combat aircraft. The J-10Bs/FC-20s coupled with the JF-17s and F-16s thus ideally meet these requirements.

In the event that the Indian Air Force decides to procure massive numbers of Western 4.5 generation fighters, beyond the 126 MRCA, while increasing the Su-30MKI numbers and upgrades their MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s, the PAF has a clear charted path in increasing JF-17s and FC-20s, having by then set up the infrastructure and training for these planes. Further, the JF-17s would not only allow PAF to counter numbers, but also allow her to maintain larger numbers of FC-20s and F-16s for war-time and lower their depreciation - providing a low cost training aircraft to fly liberally during peacetime. This would be a similar arrangement to how the Israeli Air Force uses F-16s to keep meet the flight time allocations of its F-15 pilots.

The PAF is looking to add as much potency as possible, within its budget constraints; shopping for avionics from Western sources to add further potential to its JF-17s and FC-20s. Thus far, Chinese developments have been so rapid that by the time decisions were to be made at the PAF, the Chinese would meet or exceed requirements and the competition at a lower price. It remains to be seen if this can be pulled off again by the Chinese when PAF goes shopping for the next block of JF-17s and the new FC-20s. For the FC-20s, EW, cockpit interface and reliability of the new Chinese AESA radar will play a critical role. The PAF is meanwhile keeping open options with European equivalents, including the M-AESA (Multi-role Active Electronically Scanned Antenna) being developed by Saab and Selex and a French AESA, yet to be revealed.

By 2014, some of PAF's F-16s would be ready for retirement as well. While they have been better kept than many other air forces, some of these birds would by then have been in service for more than 30 years. FC-20s could also be used to replace these.

*J-10Bs for Iran?*

There have been some reports of Iran being interested in purchasing the J-10Bs from China. Looking at Iran's present arsenal, there is no doubt Iran needs new planes. In fact, it has been seen as surprising that Iran has not procured new fighter planes from China since a small purchase of J-7s. They certainly have shown interest in the new J-7Gs and the JH-7s, both perfect substitutes for Iranian F-5s, Su-24s and F-4s. With some Israeli lineage in the J-10s, some commentators have questioned if their may not be an agreement that these birds never be sold to Iran, as a condition for Israeli technical help. Another reason is that Iran and China have not always seen eye-to-eye on patent related issues. Life is stranger than fiction it appears, as China has had issues with its products being reverse-engineered by Iran.

*J-10 Vs F-16 Technical Comparison*

The F-16 was designed from the outset as a dog-fighter. The moderate sweep of the wings and aspect ratios were ideal for this. The trade-off however, was greater supersonic resistance. The thrust offered by the two engine options on the F-16 is impressive even to this day. TWR in air combat is about 1.15, ensuring impressive climbing rates and sustained turn rates. As noted, the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance, not only in its wing design but also in its fixed air intakes. In supersonic flight, engine thrust is lost. While it can reach Mach 2.0, pragmatically it has poor supersonic performance.

While the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance for subsonic dogfighting, the J-10 did not make the same sacrifice. Thus, while when the F-16 was designed, turning dogfights were what was projected as the bread and butter of air combat, when the J-10 was being designed, the BVR era had arrived (or re-arrived). The J-10s aerodynamic design, including wing design and inlet design, take this into account. For instance, the J-10 visibly has greater wing sweep and a variable inlet. With the J-10B, a DSI intake. While the J-10B sacrifices maximum theoretical top speeds with its DSI intakes, for all relevant combat speeds, it gives the J-10 superior performance.

Under modern BVR conditions and higher altitude combat, the J-10 is significantly superior to the F-16. This is also reflected in its higher instantaneous turn rates. The Mirage-2000s have been a point of major concern both for the Pakistanis and the Turkish air forces, because of these aerodynamic issues, despite the Mirages weak engines. The Greeks, who operated both the Mirage 2000 and F-16C considered the F-16 to be better at low altitude, low speed, hard turning fights, and Mirage 2000 to be superior at hi-hi.The F-16 would have to attempt to survive the first merge in an air combat scenario, which becomes increasingly suicidal with high off-bore sight missiles. BVR further compounds these problems for the F-16s. In previous eras, flying hi and fast was fine, but you often had to come down low to engage a low flying enemy aircraft. Today, that becomes less relevant with longer range BVR missiles and look-down shoot-down capabilities.

The F-16 has also been adding weight over time and attempting to counterbalance this with increased engine thrust. However, since wing area remained the same, maneuverability has been sacrificed. Higher wing loading is particularly detrimental for higher altitude maneuverability. The J-10 on the other hand, has all the wing area it could ever need with a delta canard layout.

The newer block F-16s however, are great for low altitude air-to-ground missions. The high wing loading favors low fliers and the moderate wing sweep helps handling at lower speeds often necessary during ordnance delivery. The J-10 is thus not ideal for the CAS role. However, because of the range and payload advantages, the J-10 can be considered an effective deep striker. CAS was never a pressing need for the PLAAF, and the PAF has the JF-17 which is ideal for that role.

*Three Different J-10s?*

The reported total estimated number of J-10s is 1,200. This figure is according to Russian sources from the Moscow Airshow and is also reported in the Department of Defense annual reports to the U.S. Congress on Chinese military modernization. Given these numbers would go to the various J-10 variants. This author's view is that China has no limits set for the production of J-10s. They'll take as many as Chengdu can produce. However, the real question is - which J-10?






Firstly, we have the First Generation J-10s with AL-31 engines. Chengdu was to follow these with a J-10A with WS-10A engines. This evolution has encountered obstacles related to reliability issues. The J-10B, represents a 4.5 generation plane but it remains to be seen what engine is used with this plane. Meanwhile, according to informed commentators, a J-10C with twin engines around the size of RD-33s and incorporating similar features to the J-10B has arrived. This is supposedly a direct competitor to the Eurofighter and has the same layout - twin engined canard delta with a single tail. The PLAAF will have to decide whether to go with the J-10B or the J-10C at some point. Pakistan will not go for the J-10C as the twin engines do not comply with their doctrine of single-engined fighters and with the AFDP-2019. 

A carrier based J-10 has also been reported but this is in direct competition with the J-13, a dedicated 4.5++ carrier fighter with a conventional layout similar to the F/A-18 Super Hornets. Lastly, we have a stealth 5th Generation evolution of the delta canard, but this has reportedly lost out to a conventional layout based on the F-22. Chengdu has reportedly not lost out completely but is taking part in the project jointly with Shenyang.






*Chinese 5th Gen*

The 5th Generation Chinese stealth plane is what would eventually close down J-10 production. The XXJ or J-XX as it is often referred to, has been the subject of intense competition between China's two premier fighter design institutions - CAC and SAC. While CAC's 611 Institute lost the bid to SAC's 601 Institute, both entities have begun joint development of the new fighter. How the rivalry plays out remains to be seen. It appears Chengdu has the upper hand as it is perceived to have been more successful. J-10 program director Liu Gaozhou recently stated that, " we are researching and developing a fourth generation to meet the requirements of defending the motherland." China's fourth generation is of course, the 5th generation we refer to in the West.

The design is a conventional layout in direct similarity to the F-22. The J-XX will be powered by the WS-15, a new generation engine in development. Normal TO weight would roughly measure to 20 tons and thus be in the heavy fighter class.The J-XX would possibly be superior to all but the PAKFA and the F-22, being inferior to the latter.

What has escaped most observer radars is the MiG-E and a yet unnamed fighter from China that represent a direct counterpart to the F-35. According to an informed source, the configuration of the MiG-E is a canard delta while the configuration for the Chinese equivalent is hitherto not known. It is however, this author's opinion that we will not see (as in leaked photographs on the internet) any development on the 5th Generation front for at least the next decade. Meanwhile, we will see steady evolution of the J-10 and J-11 with every new block and reworked configurations.

Credits:
Forums: Keypublishing Forums, Defence.pk, Sino Defence Forums, China-Defense Forums

Special Credits:
Crobato
Deino
FaisalK (Mark Sein)
Farooq
GAF
Huitong
Jawad
Murad (Muradk)
Munir
Pinko, CDF
vikasrehman
Zia ul haq

http://www.grandestrategy.com/2009/04/559695923848203-dragons-new-claws-j-10b.html


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## Chanakyaa

> With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India. Even then, with the 5 present contenders left in the MRCA, only the Eurofighter (assuming AESA radars) would be able to match the J-10 in air-to-air combat.



Is J10B Really Going to be better than F16IN Blk 60 , F/A 18IN and Rafale ( All 3 will have AESA ) ?
In A2A Frame.
Plz Explain. Thanks.


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## deathfromabove

XiNiX said:


> Is J10B Really Going to be better than F16IN Blk 60 , F/A 18IN and Rafale ( All 3 will have AESA ) ?
> In A2A Frame.
> Plz Explain. Thanks.



Dude, I'm not really the guy to ask. Check out the credits. I hope some senior member will be able to address your query.


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## mean_bird

XiNiX said:


> Is J10B Really Going to be better than F16IN Blk 60 , F/A 18IN and Rafale ( All 3 will have AESA ) ?
> In A2A Frame.
> Plz Explain. Thanks.




You do realize you are asking a question about a plane that is not even out yet? Nobody can tell you for sure what it will be because nobody knows...and if anyone knows, he/she will not disclose it. 

At the moment, all is speculation. If we are to believe chinese officials, then even the J-10A is superior in A2A than the J-11 (upgraded Su-27). However, even the basic data about J-10 is not available for the general public and is mostly guess work. We do see from the exterior pictures some improvements like ECM housing, slightly slanted cone that suggests a PESA or an AESA, etc. 

My personal opinion is that it will be more manuevarable in A2A than F-16 and F-18 but 'might' lack in avionics and missiles (in terms of technology) but thats just my personal opinion based on stuff I have read around and is purely a guess work at this stage. But even if it does, I do not think it will be far behind. 

Lets wait and see for more information to surface before drawing any definitive conclusions.


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## Chanakyaa

Thank u for the replies, seems we'll have to wait to get something really conclusive abt J10.


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## Sinnerman108

Some thing that i have been wanting to point out here 
is can any one speculate the power of the flight control system on board J-10 ?
secondly which control surfaces are hooked on, and what &#37; sensitivity do we expect / axis ?

The front canard design has been bothering me ...


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## Arsalan

thats it,, as mean bird suggest it is not practical to start comparing the plane with others when its configration is not out yet.
even if we know the specs we can not compare fighter jets on one t one bases as there all a lot of systems that need to be considered and the edge of onne plane in a particular scenario is gone when it face the opposition in some other condition!

regards!


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## SEAL

Which BVR missiles PAF version (FC-20) will carry??
SD-10?


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## a1b2c145

fox said:


> Which BVR missiles PAF version (FC-20) will carry??
> SD-10?



PL-12, of course


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## sancho

arsalanaslam123 said:


> thats it,, as mean bird suggest it is not practical to start comparing the plane with others when its configration is not out yet.
> even if we know the specs we can not compare fighter jets on one t one bases as there all a lot of systems that need to be considered and the edge of onne plane in a particular scenario is gone when it face the opposition in some other condition!
> 
> regards!


I agree, but what about J10A and F16 Block 52? Are enough specs of J10 A available now for a comparison?


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## Quwa

fox said:


> Which BVR missiles PAF version (FC-20) will carry??
> SD-10?


For a while perhaps, but I'd imagine PAF would work towards arming FC-20 and JF-17 with the South African A-Darter and T-Darter, especially after 2015 when missiles of this calibre will be a norm among major air forces.

Denel conceptualises new missile | ITWeb


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## PAFAce

a1b2c145 said:


> PL-12, of course


SD-10 = PL-12.


Mark Sien said:


> For a while perhaps, but I'd imagine PAF would work towards arming FC-20 and JF-17 with the South African A-Darter and T-Darter, especially after 2015 when missiles of this calibre will be a norm among major air forces.



What about the AMRAAM? We're procuring a huge bunch of those, any chance of cross-compatibility? The JF-17s surely will, why not the FC-20?


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## hj786

Mark Sien said:


> For a while perhaps, but I'd imagine PAF would work towards arming FC-20 and JF-17 with the South African A-Darter and T-Darter, especially after 2015 when missiles of this calibre will be a norm among major air forces.
> 
> Denel conceptualises new missile | ITWeb



They proposed T-Darter to the PAF a decade ago for the Super 7, according to this article:
Denel proposes advanced Darter derivatives-28/04/1999-Flight International



PAFAce said:


> SD-10 = PL-12.
> 
> What about the AMRAAM? We're procuring a huge bunch of those, any chance of cross-compatibility? The JF-17s surely will, why not the FC-20?


SD-10 is the "export version" of PL-12, I reckon there will be some minor differences. 
About AMRAAM on JF-17, the US refused to clear it until the PAF assured them all US weaponry and aircraft would be kept at one base, away from Chinese systems. Apart from that there's the technical side of mating missile with aircraft avionics, I think the only way this could be done is by installing European avionics that comes with AMRAAM already integrated. Again, that would require permission from the US and the Indian lobby would have a field day whining about 250 JF-17s armed with AMRAAM.

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## Arsalan

sancho said:


> I agree, but what about J10A and F16 Block 52? Are enough specs of J10 A available now for a comparison?



brother even if the specs of J10A are available as i already mentioned and also many other members have stated time to time that one to one comparison of two fighter jets is not possible. Now look for instance consider a scenario where one plane have slightly better radar with longer range whereas the other have better RCS. now on paper we may give adavantage to plane with better range radar but in actual scenario they may well be equal as the second plane with lesser RCS will be difficult to detect at longer rangs. 
bro as i am not a person from the servise so the example may sound stupid but this is how i think. the fighter jets can never be discussed in A vs B thread that members here love to start!!

i hope yo understand!

regards!


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## wangrong



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## funner

*more*

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## marcos98

dunno if this was posted before... but i clearly noticed paf pilots flying jf17
ciao.....


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## RameeX Xaved

> dunno if this was posted before... but i clearly noticed paf pilots flying jf17
> ciao.....



so whats so weird about it


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## Windjammer

My information is that the PAF actually placed a couple of F-16s in PRC and a lot of input into the J-10 materialised from there.


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## k7x

Windjammer said:


> My information is that the PAF actually placed a couple of F-16s in PRC and a lot of input into the J-10 materialised from there.



oh boy; if that is true dont you thing Pak is betraying USA


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## PAFAce

Windjammer said:


> My information is that the PAF actually placed a couple of F-16s in PRC and a lot of input into the J-10 materialised from there.



First, there is no proof of physical hardware transfer to PRC, ever. Second, there is no credible proof that teams of Chinese engineers were ever allowed to take apart the F-16 on Pakistani air-bases. Third, There is no credible proof that engineering documents that may have been provided to Pakistan were ever transferred to China. I am not saying that this is impossible, I am just saying that there is no credible proof of such, only rumors which may very well have originated from our neighboring territory to the East.

That said, expertise gained by PAF pilots on the F-16 were almost surely passed onto CAC during the design phase of the JF-17, and maybe even the J-10. In addition, I would be willing to bet that Pakistani engineers and senior technicians, who have years of F-16 and Mirage maintenance experience, would have met with Chinese engineers to discuss aircraft design, especially with regards to the JF-17 and FC-20. There is absolutely nothing illegal or unethical about any of this.

American government, and even Lockheed Martin, would have never agreed to sell us the Block 52s if there were any credible proof of this story. 



k7x said:


> oh boy; if that is true dont you thing Pak is betraying USA


Even if it were true that Pakistan let Chinese engineers study the F-16, there is still no "betrayal". Pakistan paid for the F-16s, they belonged to us. We even paid for F-16s that we never received, so if anybody was wronged, it was Pakistan. Ideally, it should be entirely up to Pakistan who gets access to those F-16s, however, this world is neither ideal nor fair.

If I were to purchase an Aston Martin DBS (as I have so many times in my dreams), I would be the one to decide who gets to drive it and who gets to work on it, not Aston Martin.

*Edit*


Windjammer said:


> My dear, the Lavi project which the Chinese purchased off the shelf from Israel, had a lot of American input in it and unlike the Phalcon AWACS, the Americans never objected to it's transfer, unlike the current models, the F-16 in question incorporated 30+ year old tech.
> Suffice to say i have even seen images of an F-16 airframe used as a gate guardian in some Beijing park.


Indeed, sir. I am well aware of the links between the Lavi project and Chinese aircraft. MY point was simply that _there is no credible evidence that Pakistan ever allowed the Chinese to reverse engineer the F-16s_. Israel is a different country altogether.

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## Windjammer

k7x said:


> oh boy; if that is true dont you thing Pak is betraying USA



Pakistan paid hard cash for those birds hence they were property of GOP, how the authorities utilise it's equipment is not a matter of American concern.


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## Windjammer

PAFAce said:


> First, there is no proof of physical hardware transfer to PRC, ever. Second, there is no credible proof that teams of Chinese engineers were ever allowed to take apart the F-16 on Pakistani air-bases. Third, There is no credible proof that engineering documents that may have been provided to Pakistan were ever transferred to China. I am not saying that this is impossible, I am just saying that there is no credible proof of such, only rumors which may very well have originated from our neighboring territory.
> 
> That said, expertise gained by PAF pilots on the F-16 were almost surely passed onto CAC during the design phase of the JF-17, and maybe even the J-10. In addition, I would be willing to bet that Pakistani engineers and senior technicians, who have years of F-16 maintenance experience, would have met with Chinese engineers to discuss the F-16, especially with regards to the JF-17 and FC-20. There is absolutely nothing illegal or unethical about any of this.
> 
> American government, and even Lockheed Martin, would have never agreed to sell us the Block 52s if there were any credible proof of this story.



My dear, the Lavi project which the Chinese purchased off the shelf from Israel, had a lot of American input in it and unlike the Phalcon AWACS, the Americans never objected to it's transfer, unlike the current models, the F-16 in question incorporated 30+ year old tech.
Suffice to say i have even seen images of an F-16 airframe used as a gate guardian in some Beijing park.


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## MastanKhan

Windjammer said:


> My information is that the PAF actually placed a couple of F-16s in PRC and a lot of input into the J-10 materialised from there.





Mister,

When there are idiots like you in pakistan---who needs any enemies----somebody get this fool of this board.

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## hj786

Windjammer said:


> My dear, the Lavi project which the Chinese purchased off the shelf from Israel, had a lot of American input in it and unlike the Phalcon AWACS, the Americans never objected to it's transfer, unlike the current models, the F-16 in question incorporated 30+ year old tech.
> *Suffice to say i have even seen images of an F-16 airframe used as a gate guardian in some Beijing park.*



By implying that a PAF F-16 is stored in China, you have proved you're typing rubbish. Lockheed Martin has conducted checks of Pakistan's F-16 inventory for years and, as far as I know, they and the US government has been completely satisfied that all 40 of the F-16A/B fighters delivered to Pakistan from 1983 to 1987 are accounted for. That includes the 8 F-16s that have crashed, their wreckage has been stored at a PAF base and inspected by Lockheed Martin technicians.

Did you know there's an AH-64 Apache gunship on display in China too? Its a 1:1 scale model built by an enthusiast.

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## wangrong




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## wangrong



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## ejaz007

Windjammer said:


> My information is that the PAF actually placed a couple of F-16s in PRC and a lot of input into the J-10 materialised from there.



That is why USA is providing us block 52 F-16's so that we may send better fighters to China for copying.

Members should refrain from posting comments which can not be backed up with solid reasoning.


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## SBD-3

fox said:


> Which BVR missiles PAF version (FC-20) will carry??
> SD-10?



Yap not only SD-10 but also possibly speculated PL-14 Ramjet based BVR. But recently it is hinted that PAF would go for MICA or Meteor

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## MZUBAIR

Roumours that PAF is going to get 50,
Last month I read in paper that requirements and proposal of J-10B, 4.5th generation fighter is going to be finalized till Dec 2010.

I am quoting reference of that news.



>



*
i feel number will increase from 36.*

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## SBD-3

a possible 100 I think


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## RameeX Xaved

hasnain0099 said:


> a possible 100 I think



dear, all depends on our economy.
war on terror has caused us some 200 Billion dollars..wonder how much J-10Bs and rafaels and Block 52s we could have bought by just 10% of that amount


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## SBD-3

RameeX Xaved said:


> dear, all depends on our economy.
> war on terror has caused us some 200 Billion dollars..wonder how much J-10Bs and rafaels and Block 52s we could have bought by just 10% of that amount



but we should also note that FX reserves are, by the grace of Allah are on the rise near 14 billion USD i think so lets hope for more positive developments and we will be in a position


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## Windjammer

MastanKhan said:


> Mister,
> 
> When there are idiots like you in pakistan---who needs any enemies----somebody get this fool of this board.



Buddy, there is no need to convey your table manners on a public forum,
My disclosure is not exactly "Breaking news".
This story dates back to 90s and for your belligerent attitude, the news actually appeared in a Western aviation journal. period.


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## SBD-3

Windjammer said:


> Buddy, there is no need to convey your table manners on the forum,
> My disclosure is not exactly "Breaking news".
> This story dates back to 90s and for your belligerent attitude, the news actually appeared in a Western aviation journal. period.



its not that easy to make a statement like you did...............should add sound backing and ......obviously sense of responsibility to point .............which honestly speaking......your "claim" lacked. I hope you ll understand............Choice is yours


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## Windjammer

hj786 said:


> By implying that a PAF F-16 is stored in China, you have proved you're typing rubbish. Lockheed Martin has conducted checks of Pakistan's F-16 inventory for years and, as far as I know, they and the US government has been completely satisfied that all 40 of the F-16A/B fighters delivered to Pakistan from 1983 to 1987 are accounted for. That includes the 8 F-16s that have crashed, their wreckage has been stored at a PAF base and inspected by Lockheed Martin technicians.
> 
> Did you know there's an AH-64 Apache gunship on display in China too? Its a 1:1 scale model built by an enthusiast.


Sometimes it helps to read between the lines, I never mentioned about any PAF aircraft stationed in China, however two F-16s were there for sometimes eventually returning to their home base.
As for your sarcastic remark, a little search can often prove beneficial as the Gate guardian frame is of full scale and China has aquired it from other sources than PAF.


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## Windjammer

hasnain0099 said:


> its not that easy to make a statement like you did...............should add sound backing and ......obviously sense of responsibility to point .............which honestly speaking......your "claim" lacked. I hope you ll understand............Choice is yours



Thank you for your observation, but my dear there is no medal table here, i only posted what i did read in a reputable aviation journal.


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## SBD-3

Windjammer said:


> Thank you for your observation, but my dear there is no medal table here, i only posted what i did read in a reputable aviation journal.



you could quote it..................and tell you what.....every single westerner believes that PAF did give its vipers to China for design understanding......I dont know why West hates China?


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## Windjammer

hasnain0099 said:


> you could quote it..................and tell you what.....every single westerner believes that PAF did give its vipers to China for design understanding......I dont know why West hates China?



The Aviation journal claimed that the "Have a look" materialized with a nod from US.


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## SBD-3

Windjammer said:


> The Aviation journal claimed that the "Have a look" materialized with a nod from US.


lolz.....................now what can you call that?


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## Windjammer

hasnain0099 said:


> lolz.....................now what can you call that?



Loosely it can be translated into,

"You can have my car but, i am not giving it to you.


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## Speeder

*China has agreed to sell Pakistan at least 36 advanced fighter jets in a landmark deal worth as much as $1.4bn, according to Pakistani and western officials. *

Beijing will supply two squadrons of the J-10 fighter jet in a preliminary agreement that could lead to more sales to Pakistan in the future, said a Pakistani official.

The official said Pakistan might buy larger numbers of the multi-role aircraft in the future, but dismissed reports that Pakistan had inked a deal to buy as many as 150 of the fighter jets.

Defence experts described the agreement with China as a landmark event in Pakistans defence relationship with the growing military power. Chinas transition from a manufacturer of low-fighters to more advanced jets comparable to some western models is seen as evidence of Beijings growing strategic clout in Asia.

This agreement should not simply be seen in the narrow context of Pakistans relations with China, said Abdul Qayyum, a retired Pakistani general.

There is a wider dimension. By sharing its advanced technology with Pakistan, China is ... also saying to the world that its defence capability is growing rapidly.

China has supplied Pakistan with fighter jets for more than three decades. But Beijing has seldom supplied Pakistans air force with advanced fighter aircraft. Islamabad turned to France for Mirage fighter jets in the 1970s and to the US for F-16s in the 1980s.

Pakistan has a fleet of 45 F-16s, which are built by Lockheed Martin. The Pakistani air force is using the fighter jet in its campaign against militants in South Waziristan. The US has agreed to sell Islamabad another 18 new F-16s and about a dozen older versions of the aircraft. 

Over the past decade, China and Pakistan have collaborated on building their first jointly produced advanced fighter jet, known as the JF-17, or Thunder. Pakistan is expected to roll out the first domestically built version of the Thunder within weeks. 

Pakistans air force plans to purchase at least 250 of the Thunder fighters over the next four to five years. Experts see the new Pakistani focus on China as a supplier of advanced fighters as evidence that Beijing is trying to expand its military power.

Countries like Iran and possibly some of the Middle Eastern countries would be keen to deal with China if they can find technology which is comparable to the west, said one western official in Islamabad. 

Pakistan will work as the laboratory to try out Chinese aircraft. If they work well with the Pakistani air force, others will follow.​

FT.com / Asia-Pacific - Pakistan in Chinese fighter jet deal

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## SBD-3

Speeder said:


> *China has agreed to sell Pakistan at least 36 advanced fighter jets in a landmark deal worth as much as $1.4bn, according to Pakistani and western officials. *
> 
> Beijing will supply two squadrons of the J-10 fighter jet in a preliminary agreement that could lead to more sales to Pakistan in the future, said a Pakistani official.
> 
> The official said Pakistan might buy &#8220;larger numbers&#8221; of the multi-role aircraft in the future, but dismissed reports that Pakistan had inked a deal to buy as many as 150 of the fighter jets.
> 
> Defence experts described the agreement with China as a landmark event in Pakistan&#8217;s defence relationship with the growing military power. China&#8217;s transition from a manufacturer of low-fighters to more advanced jets comparable to some western models is seen as evidence of Beijing&#8217;s growing strategic clout in Asia.
> 
> &#8220;This agreement should not simply be seen in the narrow context of Pakistan&#8217;s relations with China,&#8221; said Abdul Qayyum, a retired Pakistani general.
> 
> &#8220;There is a wider dimension. By sharing its advanced technology with Pakistan, China is ... also saying to the world that its defence capability is growing rapidly.&#8221;
> 
> China has supplied Pakistan with fighter jets for more than three decades. But Beijing has seldom supplied Pakistan&#8217;s air force with advanced fighter aircraft. Islamabad turned to France for Mirage fighter jets in the 1970s and to the US for F-16s in the 1980s.
> 
> Pakistan has a fleet of 45 F-16s, which are built by Lockheed Martin. The Pakistani air force is using the fighter jet in its campaign against militants in South Waziristan. The US has agreed to sell Islamabad another 18 new F-16s and about a dozen older versions of the aircraft.
> 
> Over the past decade, China and Pakistan have collaborated on building their first jointly produced advanced fighter jet, known as the JF-17, or &#8220;Thunder&#8221;. Pakistan is expected to roll out the first domestically built version of the Thunder within weeks.
> 
> Pakistan&#8217;s air force plans to purchase at least 250 of the Thunder fighters over the next four to five years. Experts see the new Pakistani focus on China as a supplier of advanced fighters as evidence that Beijing is trying to expand its military power.
> 
> &#8220;Countries like Iran and possibly some of the Middle Eastern countries would be keen to deal with China if they can find technology which is comparable to the west,&#8221; said one western official in Islamabad.
> 
> &#8220;Pakistan will work as the laboratory to try out Chinese aircraft. If they work well with the Pakistani air force, others will follow.&#8221;​
> 
> FT.com / Asia-Pacific - Pakistan in Chinese fighter jet deal



Impressive article but two contradicting points 


> Defence experts described the agreement with China as a landmark event in Pakistan&#8217;s defence relationship with the growing military power. *China&#8217;s transition from a manufacturer of low-fighters to more advanced jets *comparable to some western models is seen as evidence of Beijing&#8217;s growing strategic clout in Asia.


and



> China has supplied Pakistan with fighter jets for more than three decades. *But Beijing has seldom supplied Pakistan&#8217;s air force with advanced fighter aircraft*. Islamabad turned to France for Mirage fighter jets in the 1970s and to the US for F-16s in the 1980s.



Now PAF got vipers and mirages in 80s when China was busy with Mig-21s and Mig-19s.....As far as I know....Its more like two children learning how to play China comes with Manufacturing Exprience and PAF with western Technical Knowledge.............its a win win situation for both


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## bighead

> But Beijing has seldom supplied Pakistans air force with advanced fighter aircraft



China did not have advanced fighter until recently

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## Skywalker

hasnain0099 said:


> Impressive article but two contradicting points
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> Now PAF got vipers and mirages in 80s when China was busy with Mig-21s and Mig-19s.....As far as I know....Its more like two children learning how to play China comes with Manufacturing Exprience and PAF with western Technical Knowledge.............its a win win situation for both



Little bit of correction buddy...Pakistan recieved first of its mirages in 1969/70, so its either later sixties or early seventies. If you search the picture section on defence forum...you will find a picture posted by someone. There were around 22 mirages parked. This picture was first published 1971 after the 71 war where India initially claimed that they have shot down 6 mirages.

During 71 war Pakistan had 24 mirages, 22 of them can be seen in the picture, one was crashed prior to the war and one was damaged and parked in the repair hanger.

This was also confirmed by the flight International megazine.

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## Windjammer

bighead said:


> China did not have advanced fighter until recently



It is worth remembering and mentioning that until early eighties, when the US sanctions were in full swing and the Mirages were being inducted in penny packets, the Chinese supplied F-6s were forming the back bone of the PAF, in fact the Air H.Q once described them as "the saving grace of PAF".!!!!!!!


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## MZUBAIR

We dont want 36, it shld be 136.


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## Stealth

MZUBAIR said:


> We dont want 36, it shld be 136.



Dear thats not good for us if we place order for 136. Without testing this aircraft in our country and our country weather and against other Aircrafts. No information related technology and quality both of J10 anywhere. F16 Mig etc are battle proven Fighters even in service of different countries since last 20-30 years. There is no J10 authentic information related its quality (Test) against any aircraft even on over A2A and A2G. So i think 36 are better for Today. When we see If the aircraft really meetup PAF requirements thn we will go for more. 

Thanks,

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## SBD-3

bighead said:


> China did not have advanced fighter until recently



That's exactly what i was trying to point out that PAF had good fighters perhaps better than those PRC was producing at that time so they didn't turned to PRC. It was western embargo that prompted Pakistan to go for F-7s.


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## pakpower

Stealth said:


> Dear thats not good for us if we place order for 136. Without testing this aircraft in our country and our country weather and against other Aircrafts. No information related technology and quality both of J10 anywhere. F16 Mig etc are battle proven Fighters even in service of different countries since last 20-30 years. There is no J10 authentic information related its quality (Test) against any aircraft even on over A2A and A2G. So i think 36 are better for Today. When we see If the aircraft really meetup PAF requirements thn we will go for more.
> 
> Thanks,



My dear friend I like your dedication and love for country but I'm afraid that you are not the one to decide that which aircraft paf should purchase and moreover paf must have evaluate this jet in detailed and then practice this option.


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## Stealth

pakpower said:


> My dear friend I like your dedication and love for country but I'm afraid that you are not the one to decide that which aircraft paf should purchase and moreover paf must have evaluate this jet in detailed and then practice this option.



Dear u ddnt understand what actually i am trying to say.... read my paragraph carefully i am not the one who decide which one is the best or which one is not. Read my msg carefully 

Thanks,


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## pakpower

Marae bahi I have read your paragraph reads it very carefully in the first place but after all paf guys must have evaluate the jet first and then take this decision they knows better and you are right in your own thoughts i also feels that PAF should get Rafale or something more capable proven jet but it's decision and they must have thought on this on my times.

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## Stealth

pakpower said:


> Marae bahi I have read your paragraph reads it very carefully in the first place but after all paf guys must have evaluate the jet first and then take this decision they knows better and you are right in your own thoughts i also feels that PAF should get Rafale or something more capable proven jet but it's decision and they must have thought on this on my times.



But still i doubt our J10. I dont know which version PAF go for B or A ? still confuze about that


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## lmjiao

Stealth said:


> But still i doubt our J10. I dont know which version PAF go for B or A ? still confuze about that



I think it should be J-10P, and P stand P stand for Pakistan


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## wangrong

Stealth said:


> But still i doubt our J10. I dont know which version PAF go for B or A ? still confuze about that



FC20 is J10B block X


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## lmjiao

wangrong said:


> FC20 is J10B block X



Any confirmation or links?


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## pakpower

Stealth said:


> But still i doubt our J10. I dont know which version PAF go for B or A ? still confuze about that


Dude I m quite sure it will be J-10B designated as FC-20 for Pakistan.


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## SBD-3

pakpower said:


> Dude I m quite sure it will be J-10B designated as FC-20 for Pakistan.



It should be something like J-10B nothing less......if it were J-10A then PAF could have gone for Vipers


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## Stealth

@ Airforce Professionals

Kindly answer of this question please PAF go for J10 A or B ?


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## cherryerror

latest photo of J10B #03.
enjoy it.


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## TaimiKhan

First of all, PAF will be getting these jets after about 5 years as we all know. And as for the version it is still a very long time to go, to manufacture different variants of J-10 with different configurations and then selecting the most optimized one. Just like we saw in JF-17 but would be faster in this case. 

The original design of J-10A is still being manufactured for PLAAF as they need a minimum strength to be operational. J-10B with the DSI intakes is in the testing & evaluation phase, IF the design passes the testing phase and the design with DSI intakes proves to be a viable option with no problems in the performance of the aircraft being faced due to the new design then it will go into production, how much time that gonna take, well we all can guess about that but if we see more prototypes of J-10B then it may signal that the design with DSI intakes has been found viable with no problems being faced in the performance of the aircraft, this i believe may happen within a year or little over an year. So once we see that then be assured we will be getting the one with DSI intakes as once the design is finalized the Chinese will put it into production. But main issue is the engine, we have to see its outcome and as what PAF chief had said that this version of PAF will be having TVC too (if i am not mistaken), so we have to see first if the DSI design viable, then the WS-10A engine and its performance has to be seen and also to be seen is that will TVC would be installed or not and if yes in the initial 36 batch or in the future ones. 

A lot of journey is still left to be done, we are still seeing JF-17 going through different phases of its journey, FC-20 would also be a long journey to watch to. Looking at the Chinese aviation industry progress, i think in a year to two years time, the picture would be very clear to the progress on FC-20. Do remember China is working on many multiple aircraft projects, so their resources are also not unlimited and priority wise it will also depend.


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## TaimiKhan

Enjoy the larger and more cleared pic of the latest prototype of J-10B

http://img35.imageshack.us/i/125793242196166.jpg/ http://g.imageshack.us/img35/125793242196166.jpg/1/


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## SBD-3

taimikhan said:


> Enjoy the larger and more cleared pic of the latest prototype of J-10B
> 
> http://img35.imageshack.us/i/125793242196166.jpg/ http://g.imageshack.us/img35/125793242196166.jpg/1/



that number indicates the 3rd prototype is in..........so the project is well underway...........I also agree that PAF would get WS-10A fitted ACs but to judge the reliability and maturity of WS-10A, a longer time is required


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## monitor

but where is the irst on it ? is that give up in its latest prototype or it going to build in on its airframe . and thankes to timikhanfor the nice picture


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## TaimiKhan

monitor said:


> but where is the irst on it ? is that give up in its latest prototype or it going to build in on its airframe . and thankes to timikhanfor the nice picture



IRST is on the right side of the cockpit, from this angle it can't be seen as this pic is taken from the left side, in coming days as more pics of this prototype surfaces, IRST will get cleared too.


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## TaimiKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> that number indicates the 3rd prototype is in..........so the project is well underway...........I also agree that PAF would get WS-10A fitted ACs but to judge the reliability and maturity of WS-10A, a longer time is required



Well WS-10A is being tested / in use by Chinese for quiet sometime, they must have by now a pretty good idea of its defects and may have solved many and solving other problems in it. But the secrecy of Chinese weapons development programs is well known, so we can't be sure of the stage in which WS-10A is, but if PAF guys are giving the 2014-2015 time period of its delivery then hopefully by then it will be a mature enough engine. 

3rd prototype means the program is well underway and the flight characteristics have been established or are being established through the first prototype as this 03 prototype is missing the pitot tube kind of thing on its nose, 2nd prototype would be for ground static testing purposes, may be we will see one or two prototypes more before the J-10 goes into initial production stage. It may happen by either middle of next year or by end of it.

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## MZUBAIR

Stealth said:


> @ Airforce Professionals
> 
> Kindly answer of this question please PAF go for J10 A or B ?



PAF will select J-10B


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## SBD-3

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF will select J-10B



Most probably but nothing is clear until now about the block


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## TOPGUN

Do you guys think the fc-20's will be in the same grey dark schme as the f-16's or like the thunders ?


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## TaimiKhan

TOPGUN said:


> Do you guys think the fc-20's will be in the same grey dark schme as the f-16's or like the thunders ?



It will depend on the location of their deployment. If you look at other aircrafts of PAF, their colors are as per their area of deployment, camouflage purposes.


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## SBD-3

TOPGUN said:


> Do you guys think the fc-20's will be in the same grey dark schme as the f-16's or like the thunders ?



whatever it is but it certainly wont be yellowP


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## fatman17

11 November 2009

*Pakistan may buy up to 36 Chinese J-10 fighter aircraft.*


November 10: The UK&#8217;s Financial Times reports that Pakistan may buy up to 36 Chinese J-10 fighter aircraft in a deal worth $1.4bn.

*It is believed that the J-10 version being considered by the Pakistan Air Force is the FC-20, an export version that would comply with Pakistani avionics requirements. It would be operational by 2015. The J-10 is regarded by the industry as a &#8216;fourth-generation&#8217; fighter, similar in capability to the latest versions of the F-16 and Saab&#8217;s Gripen.*

Pakistan has bought Chinese-built fighters in the past &#8211; it operates 100 Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAIC) F-7P &#8216;Airguards&#8217;, a licence-built version of the elderly MiG-21 Fishbed produced as recently as 2006, in three front-line squadrons as well as 26 Shenyang Aircraft Corporation FT-5/6s, based upon the even older MiG-17. 

*The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has recently teamed up with CAIC to produce the JF-17 &#8216;Thunder&#8217; light fighter, the first examples being delivered to Pakistan in mid-March 2008. The first squadron, No. 26, is expected to stand-up in early 2010 and Pakistan may eventually buy up to 250.*

AFM.


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## unicorn148

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF will select J-10B



the j 10 b is still in development phase and it may take some years to become a complete fighter so initial FC20 will be based on j 10 a and may be in future it will be j 10 b


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## BATMAN

unicorn148 said:


> the j 10 b is still in development phase and it may take some years to become a complete fighter so initial FC20 will be based on j 10 a and may be in future it will be j 10 b



Are you talking about Pakistani order or in general about J-10?
And in your opinion, what is missing in dragon to become a complete fighter? what is missing?

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## TaimiKhan

unicorn148 said:


> the j 10 b is still in development phase and it may take some years to become a complete fighter so initial FC20 will be based on j 10 a and may be in future it will be j 10 b



PAF will be getting the J-10 in 2014-2015 time frame, 5 more years still to go and with 3rd prototype of J-10B in the air, hopefully we would be seeing a production variant next year, so if the production did start by next year or even by start of 2011, PAF would be getting the J-10B design as once it goes into production the earlier variant J-10A production will be stopped. So how things are moving we would be seeing J-10B design in PAF service.

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## unicorn148

no one can conform that it will be ready by 2011 and before that chinese air force have to induct that so first batch of pakistans may not be J10 b


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## unicorn148

BATMAN said:


> Are you talking about Pakistani order or in general about J-10?
> And in your opinion, what is missing in dragon to become a complete fighter? what is missing?



any plane to become a complete fighter it should be thoroughly tested the systems of J10 b are new so it will take time for the plane to start production


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## TaimiKhan

unicorn148 said:


> no one can conform that it will be ready by 2011 and before that chinese air force have to induct that so first batch of pakistans may not be J10 b



Yes no one can confirm, but by looking at the Chinese previous record of manufacturing aircraft, it can be safely said it will be in production in about 2 years at the max, as the design is not 100% new, its based on a design which is already flying and tested. Also its going to be about one year since this new design is in the air, so it has covered its 1 year of testing & evaluation. The surfacing of 3rd prototype means it has now entered a new stage of its testing, at the most we will be seeing one or 2 more prototypes before it gets into production. 

And China is already inducted J-10A and J-10S variants as we speak, already may have crossed the 100 aircraft mark in PLAAF, the are also inducting the J-11 variants, JH-7As and other aircraft too, even talk of their 4th generation to take the sky is in circulation, so giving 36 aircrafts to Pakistan won't be much of a problem for them, they already have helped Pakistan a lot in the past also.

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## TaimiKhan

unicorn148 said:


> any plane to become a complete fighter it should be thoroughly tested the systems of J10 b are new so it will take time for the plane to start production



Which systems you think are going to be new ?? IRST ?? That is already working on their Su-27 / J-11 variants. 

The major thing to be seen is the radar on it, as no news about it has been confirmed, rest of the systems are either old one on the earlier variants and the new ECM suit is also going to be tested if it has not been installed on any other aircraft. 

Engine is yet in testing & evaluation and slow rate production and being tested on the J-11 variants.


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## unicorn148

yes they are but still to integrate it with the J10 will be a big task and the are new on the J10 platform so i don't think china will try to induct without testing the plane thoroughly and yes china hast nice record but still it will first induct the J10 b then only it will sell to Pakistan so lets see what will happen


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## ejaz007

*Pakistan Buying Chinese J-10 Fighters*
11-Nov-2009 22:11 EST

Pakistan and China have been cooperating for a number of years on the JF-17/ FC-1 Thunder, a low-medium performance, low-cost aircraft that has attracted interest and orders from a number of 3rd World air forces. In November 2009, a long-rumored deal was announced for Chinas Jian-10/ FC-20 4+ generation fighter, whose overall performance compares well with the F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft that Pakistan has ordered from the United States.

The J-10 has been reported as a derivative of the 1980s Israeli Lavi project, and reportedly incorporates an Israeli fly-by-wire control base that was transferred in the projects early years. The change in relations that followed the Tienanmen Square massacre hurt the J-10 project badly, however, forcing the replacement of planned Western avionics and engines with Chinese and Russian equipment. The required redesign was very extensive, affected all areas of the airframe, and took over a decade, amounting to the development of a new aircraft. The first operational J-10 unit entered service with the PLAAF in July 2004.

China has reportedly ordered 100 J-10s to date. The initial Pakistani order is for 2 squadrons, but could expand as technical cooperation and orders increase. The $1+ billion sale represents the J-10s first export order but almost certainly not its last.

*Contracts and Key Events*

*Nov 11/09:* Widespread reports surface that Pakistan has signed a $1.4 billion contract for 36 of CATICs Jian-10 fighters, which will be known as FC-20 in Pakistan. The deal is described as a preliminary agreement, and there are reports that Pakistan may eventually be interested in acquiring up to 150 of these aircraft. Retired Pakistani general Abdul Qayyum is qoted as saying that:

The agreement should not simply be seen in the narrow context of Pakistans relations with China. There is a wider dimension. By sharing its advanced technology with Pakistan, China is  also saying to the world that its defence capability is growing rapidly.

The UKs Financial Times echoes this theme, noting that the $21.7 billion Aviation Industry Corporation (AVIC) group is rapidly emerging as a big military goods exporter. The group is also involved in Chinas civilian aircraft program, and gives only total revenue figures, but the Financial Times quotes industry sources who believe a recent remerger of 2 split-out groups late in 2008 was aimed at creating a bigger and internationally competitive player. 

It is not clear whether Pakistans FC-20s will carry Russian Salyut AL-31FN turbofans (17,130/ 27,557 pounds dry/afterburner thrust) that are similar to the engines in many SU-27 family aircraft, or the larger Chinese WS-10A derivative (reportedly a lesser 16,523/ 24,729 pounds dry/afterburner thrust) developed by Chinas AVIC Aviation Engine Institute and Shenyang Liming Aero-Engine Group. Pakistans Daily Times | IBN Live | Press Trust of India | Times of India | UK Financial Times.

*March 7/09*: The Associated Press of Pakistan reports that a contract for 42 co-produced JF-17/ FC-1 fighters has been signed in Islamabad by Chinas CATIC and the Pakistani Air Force, financed by sellers credit. Production capacity is listed at 15 aircraft in the first year, rising to 30 aircraft per year thereafter. Pakistan has been flying 8 aircraft to work out tactics, techniques, and procedures, and expects to stand up the first JF-17 squadron before the end of 2009. The aircraft will be based at Peshawar, alongside existing Chinese-made Q-5/A-5C Fantan fighters that are a hugely modified Chinese derivative of the MiG-19, and their accompanying JJ-6/FT-6 MiG-19 trainers.

The article adds a quote from Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed. He reiterates that cooperation on Chinas canard-winged J-10/FC-20 is also progressing, with first deliveries to Pakistan expected in 2014-15. CATICs President MA Zhiping reportedly added that the first FC-20 aircraft built under that agreement would fly in 2009. APP | Pakistans The News.

*March 29/07*: Pakistans The News International references an interview that Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed gves to Janes:

On other important projects with China, the Pakistani air chief also revealed that Pakistan is well advanced in negotiations with China on the possible acquisition of up to 40 J-10 fighters which are the most advanced fighter aircrafts so far produced by China. Pakistan President General Pervez Musharraf was given a detailed briefing on the J-10 during his last visit to China.

We are serious in our discussions and, as air chief, I look forward to getting this programme (of the J-10) to a stage where we can contract this. I am looking at two squadrons of aircraft, anywhere between 32 and 40 platforms, said the Air chief.


Pakistan Buying Chinese J-10 Fighters

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## SBD-3

taimikhan said:


> PAF will be getting the J-10 in 2014-2015 time frame, 5 more years still to go and with 3rd prototype of J-10B in the air, hopefully we would be seeing a production variant next year, so if the production did start by next year or even by start of 2011, PAF would be getting the J-10B design as once it goes into production the earlier variant J-10A production will be stopped. So how things are moving we would be seeing J-10B design in PAF service.



For Chinese, Getting J-10B in production will not be a problem as they will have the freedom to use Russian engine. But for export, the engine concern is a considerable factor. Furthermore, as PAF will be integrating western Avionics in this bird. So creating a design and adaptable system will also require time


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## SBD-3

unicorn148 said:


> any plane to become a complete fighter it should be thoroughly tested the systems of J10 b are new so it will take time for the plane to start production


I have already said that it is not necessary that PAF would go for Chinese systems. I think PAF will surely use more mature western systems in the AC


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## S10

I am having a bit of doubt whether the J-10 being sold to Pak is the B version. As far as I'm concerned, J-10B only flew in April this year and has not been inducted into PLAAF yet. Assuming production starts next year, I don't know if CAC can fill Pak's order since they must first satisfy domestic demands first. Perhaps an upgraded variation of the J-10A is being sold here.

Either way, the main advantage of Pakistani J-10 is that it will not carry any political string normally associated with American or European products.


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## SBD-3

S10 said:


> I am having a bit of doubt whether the J-10 being sold to Pak is the B version. As far as I'm concerned, J-10B only flew in April this year and has not been inducted into PLAAF yet. Assuming production starts next year, I don't know if CAC can fill Pak's order since they must first satisfy domestic demands first. Perhaps an upgraded variation of the J-10A is being sold here.
> 
> Either way, the main advantage of Pakistani J-10 is that it will not carry any political string normally associated with American or European products.



its 2009 ending........................we still have 5 years till we will see this AC is Pakistani Colours


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## unicorn148

hasnain0099 said:


> its 2009 ending........................we still have 5 years till we will see this AC is Pakistani Colours



5 years is not enough to complete the entire testing and induction it may be possible of plaaf to induct the j10 B but to export these planes in 5 years will be very difficult because the engine will be russian engine because the ws-10a engine is not yet ready


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## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC 
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2009 

Jane's Defence Weekly 

*China seals J-10 fighter sale to Pakistan*

Farhan Bokhari JDW Correspondent - Islamabad

China has agreed to sell at least 36 of its CAC J-10 multirole fighter aircraft to Pakistan in a deal involving one of its most advanced weapon systems, according to senior Pakistani and Western defence officials. 

News of the agreement came on 11 November while Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Chief of Staff of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), was on a visit to China. *A senior Western defence official based in Islamabad who closely tracks Sino-Pakistani military co-operation told Jane's : "The deal for the J-10 is finally together now." *

*According to the Western defence official, who declined to be named, China agreed to supply the batch of 36 J-10s (two squadrons) by 2012 or 2013,* almost coinciding with the PAF's timeframe to induct up to 250 JF-17 'Thunder' fighter aircraft, built jointly by Pakistan and China. The two sides have also left open the possibility of a future agreement for the sale of more J-10s. 

*The timing of the J-10 deal is significant.* The first JF-17 made in Pakistan is expected to be rolled out of the PAF-run Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at Kamra, north of Islamabad, before the end of November. 

*Western defence analysts say the JF-17's airframe is produced at the PAC, while its avionics and weapon systems include some Chinese and Western systems. "This [the JF-17] will be a truly global aircraft, including specs from different sources," one Western defence official based in Islamabad told Jane's .* 

The deal for the 36 J-10s, which is expected to be worth at least USD1.4 billion, was described by the Western defence official "as part of evidence of growing evidence of sophistication in Pakistani-Chinese relations". 

China has long been the main supplier of military hardware to Pakistan, although its weapon systems have traditionally been considered technically inferior to those from other sources, notably the United States. 

Chinese equipment delivered during the 1980s included HAIC A-5 ground attack/strike and F-7 multirole fighters. During the same period the US was supplying Pakistan with 40 Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft, viewing Pakistan as a frontline state against the occupation of Afghanistan by the Soviet Union. 

International defence analysts said China's co-operation with Pakistan in fighter aircraft manufacture also carries some benefits for Beijing's defence industrial complex. 

"The Chinese defence industrial base has been increasingly forced to pay for itself and to find export markets," Bates Gill, head of the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), told Jane's , referring to the emerging situation after the end of the Cold War that has left many suppliers struggling to find large new buyers. *Gill said an arms agreement with Pakistan could benefit China's defence manufacturing capability as it provides scientists and weapon developers with continuing opportunities to undertake new projects. *

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## SBD-3

unicorn148 said:


> 5 years is not enough to complete the entire testing and induction it may be possible of plaaf to induct the j10 B but to export these planes in 5 years will be very difficult because the engine will be russian engine because the ws-10a engine is not yet ready



WS-10A is under testing not development.........and whith already third prototype in Air .......the production is not far away as you suggest


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## S10

unicorn148 said:


> 5 years is not enough to complete the entire testing and induction it may be possible of plaaf to induct the j10 B but to export these planes in 5 years will be very difficult because the engine will be russian engine because the ws-10a engine is not yet ready


Correction: WS-10A engine is, or was, ready for production. However, the entire line was recalled when quality problems emerged last year. The design of the engine was not the problem, but quality control was crap at the manufacturing plant. Because of poor worker ethics, the initial batch of engine was of sub-par quality. It led to a crash of J-11B prototype. In short, WS-10A could be used at anytime, but at a cost of reduced engine lifespan and reliability. Thus, it is only used in twin-engine aircrafts like J-11, but on J-10.



hasnain0099 said:


> WS-10A is under testing not development.........and whith already third prototype in Air .......the production is not far away as you suggest


Read my post above.

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## mean_bird

S10 said:


> I am having a bit of doubt whether the J-10 being sold to Pak is the B version. As far as I'm concerned, J-10B only flew in April this year and has not been inducted into PLAAF yet. *Assuming production starts next year, I don't know if CAC can fill Pak's order since they must first satisfy domestic demands first. Perhaps an upgraded variation of the J-10A is being sold here.
> *
> Either way, the main advantage of Pakistani J-10 is that it will not carry any political string normally associated with American or European products.



Unless you are assuming second hand (from PLAAF inventory) J-10A will be sold, it makes little sense. 

J-10A and B are fairly identical and its very unlikely you will have two assembly lines making the A and B models. As long as the delivery dates are the original 2013-14, the same assembly line that can make the A model as also make the B model in the same amount of time. In other words, when they shift to the B model, no more A models will be produced. 

The only exception is if the contract is signed for the A model either due to price or Chinese unwillingness to export the B model yet. Even then, its fairly possible to have the shape of the B model with differences in avionics/radar (which PAF has hinted it would like a western radar anyway). 

Logistically, I do not see a problem because the same assembly will be converted to produce the B model.


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## S10

mean_bird said:


> Unless you are assuming second hand (from PLAAF inventory) J-10A will be sold, it makes little sense.
> 
> J-10A and B are fairly identical and its very unlikely you will have two assembly lines making the A and B models. As long as the delivery dates are the original 2013-14, the same assembly line that can make the A model as also make the B model in the same amount of time. In other words, when they shift to the B model, no more A models will be produced.
> 
> The only exception is if the contract is signed for the A model either due to price or Chinese unwillingness to export the B model yet. Even then, its fairly possible to have the shape of the B model with differences in avionics/radar (which PAF has hinted it would like a western radar anyway).
> 
> Logistically, I do not see a problem because the same assembly will be converted to produce the B model.


If the delievery date is 2013-2014, I do not forsee Pakistan is getting the B version at all. Remember that J-10B has not finished testing as of this moment yet, and CAC must satisfy PLAAF's own demands first, which is at least over a hundred aircraft. It's safe to assume once production of J-10B starts somewhere next year, J-10A line will no longer continue as we've seen in J-11A lines when J-11B became available.

There is no political reason why Pakistan can't get the B model, as Pakistan has always obtained what it needed in the past from China in the past. China was introducing the J-10A at around 20 planes a year from 2004 onwards. Going by that rate, I don't know how Pakistan will get J-10B before 2015 unless production is drastically increased.

If Pakistan has to get J-10 between 2013 and 2014, there is a good chance it will be an upgraded A version.


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## houshanghai

PLAAF 60th anniversary J-10 air show 

http://space.tv.cctv.com/video/VIDE1258256734350883


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## Arsalan

well the time frame projected is 2012-2013! i think it is a bit too optimistic if we actually do want to induct what we call the FC20 as it is reported to be a modification of J10 acording to PAF will, which accordingly will be made after the Indian MRCA winner in announced...
now this is a bit too fast. 
other possibility that also seem to be the better choice will be that PAF go for J10B or even J10A in basic configration in nu,ber amountin to some 36 or so and get them ready by 2013 and then after excessive evaluation further place the order for more modified plane that will eventually be the FC20z!!!
what do you thin of it??

regards!

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## SBD-3

hay guys awesome video

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## SBD-3

S10 said:


> If the delievery date is 2013-2014, I do not forsee Pakistan is getting the B version at all. Remember that J-10B has not finished testing as of this moment yet, and CAC must satisfy PLAAF's own demands first, which is at least over a hundred aircraft. It's safe to assume once production of J-10B starts somewhere next year, J-10A line will no longer continue as we've seen in J-11A lines when J-11B became available.
> 
> There is no political reason why Pakistan can't get the B model, as Pakistan has always obtained what it needed in the past from China in the past. China was introducing the J-10A at around 20 planes a year from 2004 onwards. Going by that rate, I don't know how Pakistan will get J-10B before 2015 unless production is drastically increased.
> 
> If Pakistan has to get J-10 between 2013 and 2014, there is a good chance it will be an upgraded A version.



What i foresee is that CAC will double the current production (3 ACs a month) by opening second production line as I read it in somewhere in a report. The idea is also reinforced by the fact that PLAAF J-10As will also be taking MLU as J-10B becomes operative. And PAF will customize its FC-20 with western avionics. There are also reports that J-10B will be coming with ToT. So it will be PAF's headache to operate a separate line as CAC production lines will be busy in catering PLAAF and export customers


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## BATMAN

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well the time frame projected is 2012-2013! i think it is a bit too optimistic if we actually do want to induct what we call the FC20 as it is reported to be a modification of J10 acording to PAF will, which *accordingly will be made after the Indian MRCA winner in announced*...
> now this is a bit too fast.


Where did you read this?
Specially, when contract is signed! lets assume if tomorrow indian decide on mrca do you expect PAF to cancel this order?



> other possibility that also seem to be the better choice will be that PAF go for J10B or even J10A in basic configration in nu,ber amountin to some 36 or so and get them ready by 2013 and then after excessive evaluation further place the order for more modified plane that will eventually be the FC20z!!!
> what do you thin of it??
> regards!



No this is not good idea IMO.
PAF need to repalce and build its fleet as soon possible.
Specially, when we are talking of integrating newer air frames.
PAF should target 2010 to acheive major upgrades and i believe J10-B are in production as we speak.


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## unicorn148

the J10B are still in testing stage the complete testing may take 2-3 years and pakisthan has increased the order to 150 so i think pakisthan will intially get J10A and remaining J10B


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## unicorn148

hasnain0099 said:


> What i foresee is that CAC will double the current production (3 ACs a month) by opening second production line as I read it in somewhere in a report. The idea is also reinforced by the fact that PLAAF J-10As will also be taking MLU as J-10B becomes operative. And PAF will customize its FC-20 with western avionics. There are also reports that J-10B will be coming with ToT. So it will be PAF's headache to operate a separate line as CAC production lines will be busy in catering PLAAF and export customers



pakisthan cannot build J10s because it has to first build the JF17 and the production is too low and now pakithan is planning to increase the production but still not sufficient to build J10 because its planning to build 200 JF17 so china has to build J10 for pakisthan for now and there is no TOT of J10Bs .TOT was made only in JF17 and no news of TOT in J10 is made


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## truepakistani17

yes Pakistan is not going to produce the J10 locally, not atleast the first two batches but still getting some system from China mean assurity of maintainance repairs and upgrades can be carriedout locally


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## SBD-3

unicorn148 said:


> pakisthan cannot build J10s because it has to first build the JF17 and the production is too low and now pakithan is planning to increase the production but still not sufficient to build J10 because its planning to build 200 JF17 so china has to build J10 for pakisthan for now and there is no TOT of J10Bs .TOT was made only in JF17 and no news of TOT in J10 is made


JF-17 is already in production and PAC also has other facilities that would be available for additional plane i.e. Mirage rebuild factory and F-6 rebuild factory. these facilities would be of help as the mirages will be phased out so infrastructure would be installed on these to go ahead with FC-20 (feel free to disagree)


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## unicorn148

hasnain0099 said:


> JF-17 is already in production and PAC also has other facilities that would be available for additional plane i.e. Mirage rebuild factory and F-6 rebuild factory. these facilities would be of help as the mirages will be phased out so infrastructure would be installed on these to go ahead with FC-20 (feel free to disagree)



these are rebuild factory the cant manufacture a whole plane they are only for overhaul of foreign planes and can only make parts and not a full plane it was build only for maintenance of those mirages and you cant expect to build a whole new plane out of it (stop day dreaming)


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## unicorn148

till now no news of TOT of J10 is being made if you have some proof show us


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## mean_bird

unicorn148 said:


> the J10B are still in testing stage the complete testing may take 2-3 years and pakisthan has increased the order to 150 so i think pakisthan will intially get J10A and remaining J10B



J-10B is NOT a new plane but a variant of an existing plane. Therefore, it would require much less testing than the original platform since a lot of test data already exists. 

Besides, the first test flight supposedly took place in Dec. last year so we are already one year into the testing. Unless, there find some big problems with the design (that cannot be quickly fixed), it is quite possible to see production start from next year.

Secondly, it is extremely unlikely FC-20 will be produced here. We have enough work to do on the JF-17 already. Producing 25-30 planes per year (which is the target) is no joke if you want to maintain your quality standards. Its also helpful to remember that ToT does not mean the plane will be built here. I presume there will be some ToT so maintenance and overhauling could be done here and also some sub-systems will have commonality, at least in design, to the JF-17 so that will be helpful as well. 

PAC will have a lot of more priority projects to do than thinking of building the FC-20 here which will require a lot of money to built up the setup. If anything, PAF and PAC will be more interested in the drones that are being built ..i.e to add use load on them. Similarly, being able to overhaul the JF-17 engines should be a big priority. Similarly, the next generation of JF-17 might go for upgrade avionics and radar...that also require expertise. 

Finally, not to forget that the AWACS coming from China are coming with a lot of ToT so that will be a major task to absorb and digest all these new projects and technologies. If they are able to do all these tasks simultaneously, it will be nothing sort of marvelous.

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## wangrong

J-10B is NOT a new plane but a variant of an existing plane. Therefore, it would require much less testing than the original platform since a lot of test data already exists. 

+1


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## SBD-3

Kharian_Beast said:


> I have some good news...
> 
> FC-20 prototype J-10B has passed all of it's technical and aerial trials, proven it's new user interface and suites, and will be coming to the PAF with an advanced Chinese engine which will undergo serial production in 2013. There are only minor delays in a supposed variant of WS-10 which has been tossed, is currently being tested. Airframe is made with more composite materials and the payload has increased. Also CFT's have been successfully tested and will also be a part of the initial 36 FC-20 package which will come with A-2-G and A-2-A munitions such as a new PLAAF ramjet bvr missile and of course SD-10.
> 
> Here is the best part... FC-20 is coming with ToT and there will be maintenance facilities and also some production capabilities which will keep this bird in service for at least 30 years.
> 
> It is also confirmed baat that FC-20 is not J-10A and China will be undertaking a MLU close to FC-20 standards in about 10 years when the PLAAF will have seriously ramped up J-10 production as they want in ideal terms at least 600 J-10B flying and all their old J-10A will have undergone the same upgrade as PAF's FC-20's except for certain western components which the PAF will supposedly obtain.
> 
> Also the RADAR was decided to be a high performing PESA radar rather than AESA which makes sense, as these would increase the cost of each fighter by at least 20-25&#37;. There will already be Chinese awacs providing long range coverage, Pakistan is not the size of the US or Russia so the PAF will 99% not get AESA in FC-20.
> 
> It is supposedly going to be marketed against Rafale, Typhoon and other Western 4.5 gen fighters in a way which China says it has not done before and many air forces who would have bought MiG or Lockheed will get J-10A export variants. PAF and PLAAF will be the only nations flying the J-10B for foreseeable future.



http://rupeenews.com/2009/05/08/joi...-as-fc-20s-to-be-operationalized-before-2015/
 FYI


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## wangrong

*J10S's Cockpit *

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## SBD-3

I have high hope for this AC to be a shining star in the same league of EF, Rafale and Griffon


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## S10

hasnain0099 said:


> I have high hope for this AC to be a shining star in the same league of EF, Rafale and Griffon


J-10A? No, more comparable to F-16 block 30 or 40
J-10B? Somewhere in the neighborhood

Gripen should not be mentioned in the same league as EF or Rafale.


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## SBD-3

S10 said:


> J-10A? No, more comparable to F-16 block 30 or 40
> J-10B? Somewhere in the neighborhood
> 
> Gripen should not be mentioned in the same league as EF or Rafale.



I meant J-10B and probably super ten. I was talking about Griffon NG


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## truepakistani17

well if you can not say mention gripen in the league of rafale and or EF the it must also be noted that the J10 even the earlierJ10-A variant is also not as low as F16 blk 30/40. it aslo is superior to these mentioned blocks of F16. we can check the specs of these two planes and J10 A sounds to be the better one as it is a new designed plane keeping in view the modren warfare tactics. as for the J10B it surely is going to be a much superior plane is it actually comes out with all that is promised of it..

thanks

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## Arsalan

i also agree with you MR. Pakistani. although i dont feel it is that simple to compare fighter jets but yes the J10 A seem to be more then a match to F16 blk30/40. also the specs of J10B showcase the plane to be superior to F16 blk 52.

regards!


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## Windjammer

Guys, i am not sure if these have been posted before, but it's looking good.



http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx325/NND2008/twy1/20090611070935954.jpg

http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx325/NND2008/twy1/15669132_2009101608482249255200-1.jpg

http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx325/NND2008/twy1/15669132_2009101608481473042600.jpg

http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx325/NND2008/twy1/15669132_2009101608481899597400.jpg


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## Kompromat

*Can someone explain this*


*Pak to buy 14 Chinese fighter jets, 114 more may come*

Agencies Tags : Pakistan, China, J-10 fighter jets Posted: Wednesday, Nov 11, 2009 at 1340 hrs Islamabad:


In a major move to boost its air warfare capability, Pakistan is to purchase 36 J-10 fighter aircraft from China in a deal worth more than USD 1.4 billion, with options open for induction of more similar aircraft.

China will supply the 36 J-10 fighter jets, enough to equip two squadrons, under a preliminary agreement that could lead to "more sales", a Pakistani official has said. Pakistan might buy "larger numbers" of the multi-role aircraft in the future but has not signed any deal to purchase as many as 150 jets, the official told the Financial Times.

The J-10 or Jian 10 is China's most advanced combat aircraft and is the third generation fighter comparable to American F-16 Fighting Falcons. Islamabad and Beijing are also collaborating to build an advanced fighter -- JF-17 or "Thunder" and the first of these aircraft are expected to roll out by the end of this month, air force chief Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman said recently. 

Defence experts have described Pakistan's agreement with China to buy the J-10 jets as a "landmark event" in the defence relationship between the two countries.

"This agreement should not simply be seen in the narrow context of Pakistan's relations with China," said Abdul Qayyum, a retired Pakistani general.

"There is a wider dimension. By sharing its advanced technology with Pakistan, China is... also saying to the world that its defence capability is growing rapidly," he said.


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## SBD-3

well nothing clear about 114 more


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## Stealth

Its impossible for PAF to go for 100 J10 A or B because without any test without any proper checking of this Aircraft in Pakistan How PAF go for 100 J10 ??? No battle result no operation result!


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## SBD-3

Stealth said:


> Its impossible for PAF to go for 100 J10 A or B because without any test without any proper checking of this Aircraft in Pakistan How PAF go for 100 J10 ??? No battle result no operation result!



Obviously PAF will only go for More J-10s if they meets or exceeds PAF's Requirements. Any fallback plans for PAF (Att! millitary professionals)


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## TaimiKhan

Guys, PAF will go for more FC-20s, don't worry and will meet our criteria also. 

Point to consider here is MONEY. PAF has not so much resources at its disposal. 

We are inducting Saab 2000 AEW&C, Chinese AEW&C, plan for 250 JF-17s, MBDA's SAM system, radars, precision guided weapons, FC-20s, modernization of F-16s to take place, up gradation of infrastructure happenings, as more assets come in, operational costs go up also, the new SSW formation being raised which needs money too for all its requirements, so when you have all such plans happening at the same time, they need money, alot of money.

So lets just wait, by 2014-15, many of these programs would be completed and then PAF can order more of the FC-20s or something more better if by then Chinese induct it as more fiscal room would be available to PAF.

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## Wingman

taimikhan said:


> Guys, PAF will go for more FC-20s, don't worry and will meet our criteria also.
> 
> Point to consider here is MONEY. PAF has not so much resources at its disposal.
> 
> We are inducting Saab 2000 AEW&C, Chinese AEW&C, plan for 250 JF-17s, MBDA's SAM system, radars, precision guided weapons, FC-20s, modernization of F-16s to take place, up gradation of infrastructure happenings, as more assets come in, operational costs go up also, the new SSW formation being raised which needs money too for all its requirements, so when you have all such plans happening at the same time, they need money, alot of money.
> 
> So lets just wait, by 2014-15, many of these programs would be completed and then PAF can order more of the FC-20s or something more better if by then Chinese induct it as more fiscal room would be available to PAF.



I agree with you TK, PAF is heading towards modernization, with self produced JF-17s and Saab 2000 AEW&C, Chinese AEW&C. I think by 2015, PAF will have at least half a dozen squadron of FC-20s


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## Arsalan

Stealth said:


> Its impossible for PAF to go for 100 J10 A or B because without any test without any proper checking of this Aircraft in Pakistan How PAF go for 100 J10 ??? No battle result no operation result!



that is what is said in the report dear. it talks about 114 aircraft that will follow the initial deleivery. this measn that once PAF have evaluated the aircraft it may well place follow orders and that is sure to happen, however i am not certain about the numbers mentioned in this report.,

regards!


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## conworldus

arsalanaslam123 said:


> that is what is said in the report dear. it talks about 114 aircraft that will follow the initial deleivery. this measn that once PAF have evaluated the aircraft it may well place follow orders and that is sure to happen, however i am not certain about the numbers mentioned in this report.,
> 
> regards!



If Chengdu opens up 2 additional production line specifically for Pakistan, it can produce 4 J-10s for Pakistan every month, so 48 per year... It will take about 3 years to complete all the orders. However, Pakistan may too get a production line...


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

There is too much technology coming in alongwith the hardware----it will be too much for pak air force to abosrb all that, in such a short time of 5---8 years.


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## fatman17

^^^where are you guys getting these figures - the PAF's approved budget for front-line a/c is 20-22 sqdns. beyond this the PAF would need to increase its number of personnel and build new infrastructure. i dont see that happening.

6 sqdns of F-16s
9-10 sqdns of JF-17s
2 sqdns of FC-20s
2 sqdn each of the Mirage Rose and F-7PG is the short to near-term ASR requirement. ~354 a/c and not all available at any one time due to overhauls and maintenance.
PAF is a medium-sized airforce and will remain so, with improvements in thequality and sophistication of its assets as the key not quantity. it has always been this way!!!

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## Zhukov

WebMaster said:


> Yes, or the number could be up to 50!



Its Actually 100 For Pakistan Bro


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## PakShaheen79

fatman17 said:


> ^^^where are you guys getting these figures - the PAF's approved budget for front-line a/c is 20-22 sqdns. beyond this the PAF would need to increase its number of personnel and build new infrastructure. i dont see that happening.
> 
> 6 sqdns of F-16s
> 9-10 sqdns of JF-17s
> 2 sqdns of FC-20s
> 2 sqdn each of the Mirage Rose and F-7PG is the short to near-term ASR requirement. ~354 a/c and not all available at any one time due to overhauls and maintenance.
> PAF is a medium-sized airforce and will remain so, with improvements in thequality and sophistication of its assets as the key not quantity. it has always been this way!!!



Yeah at present that seems the case but with the pace India is builiding its AF i will not surprise if PAF decide to raise some new squadrons i.e. get more budget.


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## jupiter2007

PakShaheen79 said:


> Yeah at present that seems the case but with the pace India is builiding its AF i will not surprise if PAF decide to raise some new squadrons i.e. get more budget.



_If Zardari remain in the office Pakistan may end up losing a squadron._

*My Dream PAF/PN Inventory 2020.*
Pakistan Air Force _(12 planes per Squadron)_
6 sqdns of F-16s (block 52 + MLU)
10 sqdns of JF-17s
3-6 sqdns of FC-20s
6 Sqdns EF-2000

Pakistan Navy
4 sqdns Rafale
5 sqdns Jf-17s
2 sqdns Mirage Rose III

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## RameeX Xaved

jupiter2007 said:


> _If Zardari remain in the office Pakistan may end up losing a squadron._
> 
> *My Dream PAF/PN Inventory 2020.*
> Pakistan Air Force _(12 planes per Squadron)_
> 6 sqdns of F-16s (block 52 + MLU)
> 10 sqdns of JF-17s
> 3-6 sqdns of FC-20s
> 6 Sqdns EF-2000
> 
> Pakistan Navy
> 4 sqdns Rafale
> 5 sqdns Jf-17s
> 2 sqdns Mirage Rose III



now where did EF and Rafael come into play  
by 2020 PAF must be looking towards J-XX as J-10B and third block of Jf-17 must have met all the requirements of 4.5 generation gap we will be facing soon.. moreover if we get our hands on the F-16s which are being phased out be different countries, it will fill in our quantitative gap after going through MLU. 
i think naval version of Jf-17s and Mirage 2009 from UAE makes more sense for PN. btw if India doesnt select F-18s in its MRCA and we press US government (because its completely dependent on Pakistan on war on terror hence very vunerably) we can even get a bunch of F-18s for our navy by 2020. what say?


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## pakpower

RameeX Xaved said:


> now where did EF and Rafael come into play
> by 2020 PAF must be looking towards J-XX as J-10B and third block of Jf-17 must have met all the requirements of 4.5 generation gap we will be facing soon.. moreover if we get our hands on the F-16s which are being phased out be different countries, it will fill in our quantitative gap after going through MLU.
> i think naval version of Jf-17s and Mirage 2009 from UAE makes more sense for PN. btw if India doesnt select F-18s in its MRCA and we press US government (because its completely dependent on Pakistan on war on terror hence very vunerably) we can even get a bunch of F-18s for our navy by 2020. what say?


Highly unlikely dude I have a feeling that India will go for USA products more and more in the future and as you can see the products which Indians are currently buying are more or less US products so there is more chances even 99% sure that India will go for US products.


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## Arsalan

pakpower said:


> Highly unlikely dude I have a feeling that India will go for USA products more and more in the future and as you can see the products which Indians are currently buying are more or less US products so there is more chances even 99% sure that India will go for US products.



very true.. 
india seem to be shifthing there focus toward US. moreover the US is also trying to penetrate indian market so is offering them the best of there lot.
well hopefull relation and reliance on US will hurt india as badly as it did to us...

regards!


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## Kompromat

J-10's new picture..


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## BlackenTheSky

This is indeed a kool bird.i dont know why many ppl have objection over PAF to acquire this Aircraft


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## Kompromat

dez said:


> This is indeed a kool bird.i dont know why many ppl have objection over PAF to acquire this Aircraft



The people who appose Thunder and FC/20 is Because they do not understand this term.

" *A bird in a hand is better than 9 in the bush* "

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## PAFAce

jupiter2007 said:


> _If Zardari remain in the office Pakistan may end up losing a squadron._
> 
> *My Dream PAF/PN Inventory 2020.*
> Pakistan Air Force _(12 planes per Squadron)_
> 6 sqdns of F-16s (block 52 + MLU)
> 10 sqdns of JF-17s
> 3-6 sqdns of FC-20s
> 6 Sqdns EF-2000
> 
> Pakistan Navy
> 4 sqdns Rafale
> 5 sqdns Jf-17s
> 2 sqdns Mirage Rose III


Haha. If you're going to dream, why not dream impossibly big? How's this for big dreaming ?

*Air Force*
100 Sqd F-22
100 Sqd F-16 Block 90
100 Sqd JF-17 Block III

*Navy*
100 Sqd F-35
100 Sqd J-11E

I guess we'll have to accelerate our population growth if we're going to have pilots to fly all these aircraft. Let's go boys, get on it.

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## BlackenTheSky

PAFAce said:


> Haha. If you're going to dream, why not dream impossibly big? How's this for big dreaming ?
> 
> *Air Force*
> 100 Sqd F-22
> 100 Sqd F-16 Block 90
> 100 Sqd JF-17 Block III
> 
> *Navy*
> 100 Sqd F-35
> 100 Sqd J-11E
> 
> I guess we'll have to accelerate our population growth if we're going to have pilots to fly all these aircraft. Let's go boys, get on it.



..Include J-xx and FIGFA too in your squadrons


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## SBD-3

PAFAce said:


> Haha. If you're going to dream, why not dream impossibly big? How's this for big dreaming ?
> 
> *Air Force*
> 100 Sqd F-22
> 100 Sqd F-16 Block 90
> 100 Sqd JF-17 Block III
> 
> *Navy*
> 100 Sqd F-35
> 100 Sqd J-11E
> 
> I guess we'll have to accelerate our population growth if we're going to have pilots to fly all these aircraft. Let's go boys, get on it.



lolz I agree with dreaming big.....but not that big.... I would rather like to see FC-20/JF/F-16 combo. But I rather oppose Navalized Thunders. I think Thunder is not the one for the Sea. We should rather employ FC-20 and Vipers in similar roles. Look We are going to face some very good birds from IN from the sea. With long range weaponary at their disposal I rather think to put one of the best of the best ACs we have. I truly follow the naval practises, I would like to see J-11s looking after seas


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## truepakistani17

Black blood said:


> The people who appose Thunder and FC/20 is Because they do not understand this term.
> 
> " *A bird in a hand is better than 9 in the bush* "



i hope by bush you mean to say the BUSH administration....


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## rajeev

PAFAce said:


> Haha. If you're going to dream, why not dream impossibly big? How's this for big dreaming ?
> 
> *Air Force*
> 100 Sqd F-22
> 100 Sqd F-16 Block 90
> 100 Sqd JF-17 Block III
> 
> *Navy*
> 100 Sqd F-35
> 100 Sqd J-11E
> 
> I guess we'll have to accelerate our population growth if we're going to have pilots to fly all these aircraft. Let's go boys, get on it.



And with this mega-force who will you fight? Rest of world 

100-Sqd of F22 (oh my goodness !)


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## mean_bird

*Another good news, the AESA radar has been finished​*
This news have been reported in an news paper run by Chinese military industy:

*This news says the AESA for Chinese J-XX has finished, its a X-band AESA radar, developed in 607th research insistitue in Sichuan.
*
The *Vice-commander of China Airforce* has been there to accept the radar and praise the team, he said he is very pleased by this news and he *think now one of the two challenges (engine and radar) for J-XX have been overcome.*

From this news the Airforce plan to not only install this AESA radar on J-XX, but also use it to *upgrade their existing 3rd genertaion figthers.*

Cross posted from SDF.

Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics (one the three top schools in aero-related subjects in China) 's offfical website also post this news:

´´ÐÂ³¬Ô½´Ù·¢Õ¹--¼ÇÖÐº½¹¤ÒµÀ×µçÔº³¤ÕÅÀ¥»Ô
´´ÐÂ³¬Ô½´Ù·¢Õ¹--¼ÇÖÐº½¹¤ÒµÀ×µçÔº³¤ÕÅÀ¥»Ô_ÐÐÒµ¾«Ó¢_ÖÐ¹úº½¿ÕÐÂÎÅÍø

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## wangrong

mean_bird said:


> *Another good news, the AESA radar has been finished​*
> This news have been reported in an news paper run by Chinese military industy:
> 
> *This news says the AESA for Chinese J-XX has finished, its a X-band AESA radar, developed in 607th research insistitue in Sichuan.
> *
> The *Vice-commander of China Airforce* has been there to accept the radar and praise the team, he said he is very pleased by this news and he *think now one of the two challenges (engine and radar) for J-XX have been overcome.*
> 
> From this news the Airforce plan to not only install this AESA radar on J-XX, but also use it to *upgrade their existing 3rd genertaion figthers.*
> 
> Cross posted from SDF.
> 
> Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics (one the three top schools in aero-related subjects in China) 's offfical website also post this news:
> 
> ´´ÐÂ³¬Ô½´Ù·¢Õ¹--¼ÇÖÐº½¹¤ÒµÀ×µçÔº³¤ÕÅÀ¥»Ô
> ´´ÐÂ³¬Ô½´Ù·¢Õ¹--¼ÇÖÐº½¹¤ÒµÀ×µçÔº³¤ÕÅÀ¥»Ô_ÐÐÒµ¾«Ó¢_ÖÐ¹úº½¿ÕÐÂÎÅÍø



old news,i think j10B Xblock will test this radar


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## Stealth

@China

Stop using Russian Engine first learn how to make ENGINE and use it in ur Aircrafts.


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## wangrong

Stealth said:


> @China
> 
> Stop using Russian Engine first learn how to make ENGINE and use it in ur Aircrafts.



*Time* is the only factor restricting Chinese engines now


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Can Fc-20 can match su 30 mki of India.

Pesrsonally i think theres no match of American fighter aircrafts not even russians and europeans can match them .


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## owais.usmani



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## faithfulguy

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Can Fc-20 can match su 30 mki of India.
> 
> Pesrsonally i think theres no match of American fighter aircrafts not even russians and europeans can match them .



America is way ahead of China and is pulling further and further ahead. china has to run just to stand still...


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## TaimiKhan

faithfulguy said:


> America is way ahead of China and is pulling further and further ahead. china has to run just to stand still...



Needs a lot of proof to support such a statement, off course America is ahead in technological field but the other things you said don't seem to be true looking at the current developments.


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## jupiter2007

PAFAce said:


> Haha. If you're going to dream, why not dream impossibly big? How's this for big dreaming ?
> 
> *Air Force*
> 100 Sqd F-22
> 100 Sqd F-16 Block 90
> 100 Sqd JF-17 Block III
> 
> *Navy*
> 100 Sqd F-35
> 100 Sqd J-11E
> 
> I guess we'll have to accelerate our population growth if we're going to have pilots to fly all these aircraft. Let's go boys, get on it.



Mirage 3 upgrade - ????


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## MAB

jupiter2007 said:


> Mirage 3 upgrade - ????



I am pretty sure that this is not true. Why would the mirage have the rd-93 engine. The mirages are being replaced anyways. The photo by the way is photoshopped. The nose looks like its from the rafale.

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## MAB

owais.usmani said:


>



Really nice pic.


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## aimarraul



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## 592257001

These are just some of the J-10 fighter collections:
http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_0911/27_126678_5b73c5de98c8168.jpg

http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_0910/27_126678_bc2bdec2c344781.jpg
http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_0910/27_8798_a75a2727280b3fc.jpg
http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_0910/27_8798_a54f3872a9a54f1.jpg
Most of them are J-10B

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## mshoaib61




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## mshoaib61



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## mshoaib61




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## derek

I heard China would export J10B to our bro neighbor.
1 billion for 35 jets, I was shocked. 
It's too expensive even including fighter training fee.

damn corrupt officers~

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## TaimiKhan

derek said:


> I heard China would export J10B to our bro neighbor.
> 1 billion for 35 jets, I was shocked.
> It's too expensive even including fighter training fee.
> 
> damn corrupt officers~



The amount coming to approx 39Million USD$ per aircraft including everything, spares, extra engines, training and other stuff does not makes it into a bad deal, and no corruption can be seen in it. 

This is a fine aircraft, with a good price attached to it.

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## SBD-3

mean_bird said:


> *Another good news, the AESA radar has been finished​**This news says the AESA for Chinese J-XX has finished, its a X-band AESA radar, developed in 607th research insistitue in Sichuan.
> *
> The *Vice-commander of China Airforce* has been there to accept the radar and praise the team, he said he is very pleased by this news and he *think now one of the two challenges (engine and radar) for J-XX have been overcome.*



what about design and avionics and most importantly engine as WS-10A has just been opertaionalized WS-15 will take a long time man


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## Arsalan

we are not going to get them before 2013-2014 and i guess by that time there will be some good options available as far as engines are concerned...


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> we are not going to get them before 2013-2014 and i guess by that time there will be some good options available as far as engines are concerned...



rather make it 17-18 minimum

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## DaRk WaVe

*" FC-20":The New Cornerstone of Sino-Pakistani Defense Cooperation​*
China and Pakistan have forged a formidable partnership in high-tech defense production. This partnership is born of their ever-deepening military and strategic cooperation that is also reflective of the burgeoning capacity of China's defense industries and the budding Sino-Pakistani defense relationship. The epitome of this bilateralism is the recent revelation that the Chinese have agreed to the sale of 36 FC-20/J-10B fighter jets to Pakistan (Financial Times, November 10). The FC-20/J-10 aircrafts are known to be one of the most advanced weapon systems in China&#8217;s arsenal, of which Pakistan will be the first recipient. With the delivery of 36 fighter jets, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will raise two fighting squadrons that will further sharpen its combativeness. The FC-20/J-10 deal was reportedly sealed for a whopping $1.4 billion, which accounts for 70 percent of Chinese average arms sales of $2 billion a year (China Brief, July 9).

*The J-10 Sale Epitomizes Strategic Alliance*

The deal marks the depth of a strategic alliance between Beijing and Islamabad. Some reports suggest that Pakistan is actually seeking 150 FC-20/J-10 fighter jets, which go by Chengdu Jian-10 in China and FC-20 in Pakistan, for a sum of $6 billion (The Hindu, November 11). The Pakistani government, however, dismisses such reports as inflated (Financial Times, November 10). Although Pakistan has not yet made the deal public, its prime minister, Yousaf Raza Gilani, on November 23, confirmed that &#8220;his country is in talks with China for securing the FC-20/J-10s&#8221;. Pakistan turned to China for these aircraft in 2006 after it failed to secure the F-16s from the United States (Dawn, May 1, 2006). General Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan&#8217;s former military ruler, who negotiated the deal during his visit to China in 2006, is the real architect of this grand sale (The Hindu, November 11). 
The J-10s are China&#8217;s third generation fighter aircraft that it has indigenously developed (The Hindu, November 11) and manufactured at the Chengdu Aircraft Industry (CAI). Some observers, however, believe that J-10s are China&#8217;s fourth generation aircraft. &#8220;This aircraft is a cousin to the Israeli Lavi (upon which it is based) and roughly equivalent in capabilities to the U.S. F-16C flown by several air forces around the world&#8221; (See "China&#8217;s Re-emergence as an Arms Dealer: The Return of the King?" China Brief, July 9). The J-10s started development in the mid-1980s and finally entered production for the People&#8217;s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) about three or four years ago. Aviation experts rank them below the F-16s, the Swedish Gripen and other smaller combat aircraft (China Brief, July 9). According to a report in The Hindu (November 11), China is working on developing its fourth generation fighter jets as well. The United States, The Hindu report further claims, is the only country that possesses a fourth generation combat aircraft&#8212;the F-22s. Yet aviation experts believe the F-22s are fifth generation fighter jets. Chinese Deputy Commander of the PLAAF General He Weirong claimed that &#8220;China would operationalize its very own fourth generation aircraft in the next eight or ten years&#8221; (The Hindu, November 11). The Chinese official further claimed that the fourth generation planes would &#8220;match or exceed the capacity of similar jets in existence today&#8221; (The Hindu, November 11).

In anticipation, China is also training Pakistani fighter pilots for flying the fourth generation combat aircraft. On January 16, it delivered eight Karakoram K-8P trainer jets to Pakistan for this purpose. According to an official statement, the K-8P jets had enhanced the basic training of PAF pilots and provided a &#8220;potent platform for their smooth transition to more challenging fourth generation fighter aircraft&#8221; (The Asian Defence, January 16). The K-8P is an advanced trainer jet that has been jointly developed by China and Pakistan. It is already in service at the PAF Academy. At the handing-over ceremony for the K-8Ps, a visiting Chinese delegation as well as high-ranking PAF officers were in attendance. 

China&#8217;s sale of the FC-20/J-10 fighters to Pakistan, however, signals the depth of its strategic alliance with Pakistan. Pakistan will be the first country to receive the most advanced Chinese aircraft, which speaks volumes to Chinese faith in its strategic partnership with Pakistan. Defense analysts, however, believe that the sale sends an important message to the world that China&#8217;s &#8220;defense capability is growing rapidly&#8221; (Financial Times, November 10). China-Pakistan military relations spanned over 43 years, starting in 1966 when China provided Pakistan with F-6s, which were followed by the successive supply of such aircraft as FT5, A5, F-7P, F-7PG and K-8 (Jang, November 22).

These relations continue to grow with high-level exchanges in the defense sector. As recently as October of this year, Chinese Vice-Minister Chen Qiufa, administrator of China&#8217;s State Administration for Science, Technology & Industry for National Defense (SASTIND), led a delegation of Chinese defense-companies to Pakistan. He called on Prime Minister Gilani and discussed cooperation in the JF-17 Thunder Project, Al Khalid tank, F-22 frigates, Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS), and aircraft and naval ships (APP, October 17). The Chinese delegation included representatives from China's missile technology firm Poly Technologies as well as Aviation Industries Corp. of China, China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation, China Electronics Technology Group and China North Industry Corporation.

Although there is a proliferation of joint defense projects between China and Pakistan, their collaboration in aviation industry has peaked at the turn of the millennium. The mainstay of their joint defense production is the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra (Punjab), which services, assembles and manufactures fighter and trainer aircraft. The PAC is rated as the world&#8217;s third largest assembly plant. Initially, it was founded with Chinese assistance to rebuild Chinese aircraft in the PAF fleet, which included Shenyang F-6 (now retired), Nanchang A-5, F-7 combat aircraft, Shenyang FT-5 and FT-6 Jet trainer aircraft. The PAC also houses the Kamra Radar and Avionics Factory (KARF), which is meant to assemble and overhaul airborne as well as ground-based radar systems, electronics, and avionics. The KARF, which is ISO-9002 certified, has upgraded the PAF Chengdu F-7P interceptor fleet. Over time, the PAC has expanded its operation into aircraft manufacturing, and built a specialized manufacturing unit in the 1980s: The Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (AMF). The AMF got noticed in the region when it partnered with the Hongdu Aviation Industry Group of China to design, develop and coproduce the K-8 Karakoram (Hongdu JL-8), which is an advanced jet trainer. The AMF&#8217;s flagship project, however, is the Sino-Pakistani joint production and manufacture of the JF-17 Thunder aircraft, which it is producing with the Chengdu Aircraft Industry (CAI).

*JF-17 Thunder Makes Over the PAF*

In recent history, China and Pakistan set out for the joint production of JF-17 combat aircraft that both countries consider a substitute for U.S. F-16s. Pakistan&#8217;s indigenous manufacture of the first JF-17 (which goes by FC-1 in China) came to fruition on November 23, when Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), an arm of the Pakistan Air Force, turned it over to the PAF to the chants of &#8220;Long Live Pak-China Friendship&#8221; (The News International, November 24)

Pakistan&#8217;s Prime Minister, Pakistan Chief of Army Staff and Chinese Ambassador to Pakistan, Lou Zhaohui, were among the dignitaries who attended the handing-over ceremony. Chinese Ambassador Zhaohui, speaking on the occasion, told his audience: &#8220;China wants to further broaden the defense cooperation with Pakistan&#8221; (Jang, November 23). The PAF already has 10 JF-17s, which were produced in China, in its fleet. The JF-17 project began in 1992, under which China agreed to transfer technology for the aircraft&#8217;s joint production. The project was hampered in 1999, when Pakistan came under proliferation sanctions. It gained momentum in 2001.
On September 3, 2003, its prototype, which was manufactured in China, conducted the first test flight. The PAF claims that the JF-17s, with a glass cockpit and modern avionics, are comparable to any fighter plane (Jang, November 23). It is a lightweight combat jet, fitted with turbofan engine, advanced flight control, and the most advanced weapons delivery system. As a supersonic plane, its speed is 1.6 times the speed of its sound, and its ability to refuel midair makes it a &#8220;stand-out&#8221; (Jang, November 23). Pakistan intends to raise a squadron of JF-17s by 2010. The Chief of Air Staff of the PAF told a newspaper that JF-17s would help &#8220;replace the existing fleet of the PAF comprising F-7s, A-5s and all Mirage aircraft&#8221; (The News International, November 8). Eventually, Pakistan will have 250 JF-17s that will completely replace its ageing fleet.

Pakistan also plans to export these aircraft to developing countries for which, it says, orders have already started pouring in (Jang, November 22). China and Pakistan anticipate an annual export of 40 JF-17s to Asian, African and Middle Eastern nations. At $25 million apiece, the export of 40 aircraft will fetch them $1 billion per year. There are estimates that Asia will purchase 1,000 to 1,500 aircraft over the next 15 years. In this Sino-Pakistani joint venture, Pakistan will have 58 percent of shares, while China will have 42 percent (The News International, November 25). Besides defense aviation, China and Pakistan are closely collaborating on the joint production of naval ships as well.

*Chinese Frigates for the Pakistan Navy*

China and Pakistan worked out a $750 million loan to help Pakistan build four F-22P frigates (The News International, September 16, 2004). In 2004, Pakistan negotiated this non-commercial (i.e. low-cost) loan with China for the joint manufacture of naval ships. China and Pakistan have since moved fast to begin work on this project. They have now expanded the original deal to build eight F22P frigates respectively at Hudong Zhonghua shipyard in Shanghai, China, and Karachi shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW), Pakistan. The manufacturing cost of each F22P Frigate, which is an improved version of China&#8217;s original Type 053H3 Frigate, is $175 million. At this rate, the cost of eight frigates will run at about $1.4 billion. 

The first Chinese-built F-22 frigate, named PNS Zulfiqar (Arabic for sword), was delivered to Pakistan on July 30 (The Nation, July 31). A month later, the ship was formally commissioned in the Pakistan Navy fleet in September. Soon after its arrival in July, the ship participated in the Pakistan Navy&#8217;s SeaSpark exercises. Of the original four frigates, three were to be built in China and one in Pakistan (Asia Times, July 11, 2007). After the delivery of PNS Zulfiqar, the remaining two ships that are being built in China are expected to be commissioned in the Pakistan Navy fleet by 2010. The fourth ship being built in Pakistan&#8217;s Karachi shipyard will be ready by 2013 (Asia Times, July 11, 2007).

The Pakistan Navy describes the F-22P frigate as a Sword Class ship that is equipped with long-range surface-to-surface missiles (SSM) and surface-to-air missiles (SAM), depth charges, torpedoes, the latest 76mm guns, a close-in-weapons system (CIWS), sensors, electronic warfare and an advanced command and control system (The Nation, July 31). The ship has a displacement of 3,000 tons and carries anti-submarine Z9EC helicopters. China has already delivered the first batch of two such helicopters to Pakistan. Although the Pakistan Navy has Sea-King helicopters for anti-submarine operations, it is now acquiring Chinese Z9ECs to enhance its operational capabilities (The Nation, July 31). In addition to building eight frigates, the Sino-Pakistan defense deal includes the upgrading of the Karachi dockyard for indigenous production of a modern surface fleet. The frigates deal is the first of its kind between China and Pakistan, which forges their two navies into a high-level collaboration for boosting their surface fleet. 
*
Conclusion*

At the turn of the millennium, China and Pakistan have diversified their defense trade into joint defense production. They have since been collaborating on the production of most advanced weapons systems, such as the JF-17s combat aircraft and F-22P Frigates. Pakistan will receive the transfer of technology for the FC-20/J-10s as well. China recognizes that Pakistan is rich with human capital in the high-tech defense industry, which serves as a magnet for its investment. Both China and Pakistan look to capture wider defense export markets in Asia, Africa and the Middle East. At the same time, their growing cooperation in aviation and naval defense systems signals an important shift in Pakistan&#8217;s military doctrine that traditionally favored Army (especially ground forces) over its sister services&#8212;Navy and Air Force. In the region&#8217;s changing strategic environment, in which China has growing stakes, Pakistan has come to recognize the critical importance of air and naval defense. The China-Pakistan collaboration in aviation and naval defense amply embodies this recognition.

ASIAN DEFENCE: " FC-20":The New Cornerstone of Sino-Pakistani Defense Cooperation

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## SBD-3

emo_girl said:


> *" FC-20":The New Cornerstone of Sino-Pakistani Defense Cooperation​*
> China and Pakistan have forged a formidable partnership in high-tech defense production. This partnership is born of their ever-deepening military and strategic cooperation that is also reflective of the burgeoning capacity of China's defense industries and the budding Sino-Pakistani defense relationship. The epitome of this bilateralism is the recent revelation that the Chinese have agreed to the sale of 36 FC-20/J-10B fighter jets to Pakistan (Financial Times, November 10). The FC-20/J-10 aircrafts are known to be one of the most advanced weapon systems in China&#8217;s arsenal, of which Pakistan will be the first recipient. With the delivery of 36 fighter jets, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will raise two fighting squadrons that will further sharpen its combativeness. The FC-20/J-10 deal was reportedly sealed for a whopping $1.4 billion, which accounts for 70 percent of Chinese average arms sales of $2 billion a year (China Brief, July 9).
> 
> *The J-10 Sale Epitomizes Strategic Alliance*
> 
> The deal marks the depth of a strategic alliance between Beijing and Islamabad. Some reports suggest that Pakistan is actually seeking 150 FC-20/J-10 fighter jets, which go by Chengdu Jian-10 in China and FC-20 in Pakistan, for a sum of $6 billion (The Hindu, November 11). The Pakistani government, however, dismisses such reports as inflated (Financial Times, November 10). Although Pakistan has not yet made the deal public, its prime minister, Yousaf Raza Gilani, on November 23, confirmed that &#8220;his country is in talks with China for securing the FC-20/J-10s&#8221;. Pakistan turned to China for these aircraft in 2006 after it failed to secure the F-16s from the United States (Dawn, May 1, 2006). General Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan&#8217;s former military ruler, who negotiated the deal during his visit to China in 2006, is the real architect of this grand sale (The Hindu, November 11).
> The J-10s are China&#8217;s third generation fighter aircraft that it has indigenously developed (The Hindu, November 11) and manufactured at the Chengdu Aircraft Industry (CAI). Some observers, however, believe that J-10s are China&#8217;s fourth generation aircraft. &#8220;This aircraft is a cousin to the Israeli Lavi (upon which it is based) and roughly equivalent in capabilities to the U.S. F-16C flown by several air forces around the world&#8221; (See "China&#8217;s Re-emergence as an Arms Dealer: The Return of the King?" China Brief, July 9). The J-10s started development in the mid-1980s and finally entered production for the People&#8217;s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) about three or four years ago. Aviation experts rank them below the F-16s, the Swedish Gripen and other smaller combat aircraft (China Brief, July 9). According to a report in The Hindu (November 11), China is working on developing its fourth generation fighter jets as well. The United States, The Hindu report further claims, is the only country that possesses a fourth generation combat aircraft&#8212;the F-22s. Yet aviation experts believe the F-22s are fifth generation fighter jets. Chinese Deputy Commander of the PLAAF General He Weirong claimed that &#8220;China would operationalize its very own fourth generation aircraft in the next eight or ten years&#8221; (The Hindu, November 11). The Chinese official further claimed that the fourth generation planes would &#8220;match or exceed the capacity of similar jets in existence today&#8221; (The Hindu, November 11).
> 
> In anticipation, China is also training Pakistani fighter pilots for flying the fourth generation combat aircraft. On January 16, it delivered eight Karakoram K-8P trainer jets to Pakistan for this purpose. According to an official statement, the K-8P jets had enhanced the basic training of PAF pilots and provided a &#8220;potent platform for their smooth transition to more challenging fourth generation fighter aircraft&#8221; (The Asian Defence, January 16). The K-8P is an advanced trainer jet that has been jointly developed by China and Pakistan. It is already in service at the PAF Academy. At the handing-over ceremony for the K-8Ps, a visiting Chinese delegation as well as high-ranking PAF officers were in attendance.
> 
> China&#8217;s sale of the FC-20/J-10 fighters to Pakistan, however, signals the depth of its strategic alliance with Pakistan. Pakistan will be the first country to receive the most advanced Chinese aircraft, which speaks volumes to Chinese faith in its strategic partnership with Pakistan. Defense analysts, however, believe that the sale sends an important message to the world that China&#8217;s &#8220;defense capability is growing rapidly&#8221; (Financial Times, November 10). China-Pakistan military relations spanned over 43 years, starting in 1966 when China provided Pakistan with F-6s, which were followed by the successive supply of such aircraft as FT5, A5, F-7P, F-7PG and K-8 (Jang, November 22).
> 
> These relations continue to grow with high-level exchanges in the defense sector. As recently as October of this year, Chinese Vice-Minister Chen Qiufa, administrator of China&#8217;s State Administration for Science, Technology & Industry for National Defense (SASTIND), led a delegation of Chinese defense-companies to Pakistan. He called on Prime Minister Gilani and discussed cooperation in the JF-17 Thunder Project, Al Khalid tank, F-22 frigates, Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS), and aircraft and naval ships (APP, October 17). The Chinese delegation included representatives from China's missile technology firm Poly Technologies as well as Aviation Industries Corp. of China, China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation, China Electronics Technology Group and China North Industry Corporation.
> 
> Although there is a proliferation of joint defense projects between China and Pakistan, their collaboration in aviation industry has peaked at the turn of the millennium. The mainstay of their joint defense production is the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra (Punjab), which services, assembles and manufactures fighter and trainer aircraft. The PAC is rated as the world&#8217;s third largest assembly plant. Initially, it was founded with Chinese assistance to rebuild Chinese aircraft in the PAF fleet, which included Shenyang F-6 (now retired), Nanchang A-5, F-7 combat aircraft, Shenyang FT-5 and FT-6 Jet trainer aircraft. The PAC also houses the Kamra Radar and Avionics Factory (KARF), which is meant to assemble and overhaul airborne as well as ground-based radar systems, electronics, and avionics. The KARF, which is ISO-9002 certified, has upgraded the PAF Chengdu F-7P interceptor fleet. Over time, the PAC has expanded its operation into aircraft manufacturing, and built a specialized manufacturing unit in the 1980s: The Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (AMF). The AMF got noticed in the region when it partnered with the Hongdu Aviation Industry Group of China to design, develop and coproduce the K-8 Karakoram (Hongdu JL-8), which is an advanced jet trainer. The AMF&#8217;s flagship project, however, is the Sino-Pakistani joint production and manufacture of the JF-17 Thunder aircraft, which it is producing with the Chengdu Aircraft Industry (CAI).
> 
> *JF-17 Thunder Makes Over the PAF*
> 
> In recent history, China and Pakistan set out for the joint production of JF-17 combat aircraft that both countries consider a substitute for U.S. F-16s. Pakistan&#8217;s indigenous manufacture of the first JF-17 (which goes by FC-1 in China) came to fruition on November 23, when Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), an arm of the Pakistan Air Force, turned it over to the PAF to the chants of &#8220;Long Live Pak-China Friendship&#8221; (The News International, November 24)
> 
> Pakistan&#8217;s Prime Minister, Pakistan Chief of Army Staff and Chinese Ambassador to Pakistan, Lou Zhaohui, were among the dignitaries who attended the handing-over ceremony. Chinese Ambassador Zhaohui, speaking on the occasion, told his audience: &#8220;China wants to further broaden the defense cooperation with Pakistan&#8221; (Jang, November 23). The PAF already has 10 JF-17s, which were produced in China, in its fleet. The JF-17 project began in 1992, under which China agreed to transfer technology for the aircraft&#8217;s joint production. The project was hampered in 1999, when Pakistan came under proliferation sanctions. It gained momentum in 2001.
> On September 3, 2003, its prototype, which was manufactured in China, conducted the first test flight. The PAF claims that the JF-17s, with a glass cockpit and modern avionics, are comparable to any fighter plane (Jang, November 23). It is a lightweight combat jet, fitted with turbofan engine, advanced flight control, and the most advanced weapons delivery system. As a supersonic plane, its speed is 1.6 times the speed of its sound, and its ability to refuel midair makes it a &#8220;stand-out&#8221; (Jang, November 23). Pakistan intends to raise a squadron of JF-17s by 2010. The Chief of Air Staff of the PAF told a newspaper that JF-17s would help &#8220;replace the existing fleet of the PAF comprising F-7s, A-5s and all Mirage aircraft&#8221; (The News International, November 8). Eventually, Pakistan will have 250 JF-17s that will completely replace its ageing fleet.
> 
> Pakistan also plans to export these aircraft to developing countries for which, it says, orders have already started pouring in (Jang, November 22). China and Pakistan anticipate an annual export of 40 JF-17s to Asian, African and Middle Eastern nations. At $25 million apiece, the export of 40 aircraft will fetch them $1 billion per year. There are estimates that Asia will purchase 1,000 to 1,500 aircraft over the next 15 years. In this Sino-Pakistani joint venture, Pakistan will have 58 percent of shares, while China will have 42 percent (The News International, November 25). Besides defense aviation, China and Pakistan are closely collaborating on the joint production of naval ships as well.
> 
> *Chinese Frigates for the Pakistan Navy*
> 
> China and Pakistan worked out a $750 million loan to help Pakistan build four F-22P frigates (The News International, September 16, 2004). In 2004, Pakistan negotiated this non-commercial (i.e. low-cost) loan with China for the joint manufacture of naval ships. China and Pakistan have since moved fast to begin work on this project. They have now expanded the original deal to build eight F22P frigates respectively at Hudong Zhonghua shipyard in Shanghai, China, and Karachi shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW), Pakistan. The manufacturing cost of each F22P Frigate, which is an improved version of China&#8217;s original Type 053H3 Frigate, is $175 million. At this rate, the cost of eight frigates will run at about $1.4 billion.
> 
> The first Chinese-built F-22 frigate, named PNS Zulfiqar (Arabic for sword), was delivered to Pakistan on July 30 (The Nation, July 31). A month later, the ship was formally commissioned in the Pakistan Navy fleet in September. Soon after its arrival in July, the ship participated in the Pakistan Navy&#8217;s SeaSpark exercises. Of the original four frigates, three were to be built in China and one in Pakistan (Asia Times, July 11, 2007). After the delivery of PNS Zulfiqar, the remaining two ships that are being built in China are expected to be commissioned in the Pakistan Navy fleet by 2010. The fourth ship being built in Pakistan&#8217;s Karachi shipyard will be ready by 2013 (Asia Times, July 11, 2007).
> 
> The Pakistan Navy describes the F-22P frigate as a Sword Class ship that is equipped with long-range surface-to-surface missiles (SSM) and surface-to-air missiles (SAM), depth charges, torpedoes, the latest 76mm guns, a close-in-weapons system (CIWS), sensors, electronic warfare and an advanced command and control system (The Nation, July 31). The ship has a displacement of 3,000 tons and carries anti-submarine Z9EC helicopters. China has already delivered the first batch of two such helicopters to Pakistan. Although the Pakistan Navy has Sea-King helicopters for anti-submarine operations, it is now acquiring Chinese Z9ECs to enhance its operational capabilities (The Nation, July 31). In addition to building eight frigates, the Sino-Pakistan defense deal includes the upgrading of the Karachi dockyard for indigenous production of a modern surface fleet. The frigates deal is the first of its kind between China and Pakistan, which forges their two navies into a high-level collaboration for boosting their surface fleet.
> *
> Conclusion*
> 
> At the turn of the millennium, China and Pakistan have diversified their defense trade into joint defense production. They have since been collaborating on the production of most advanced weapons systems, such as the JF-17s combat aircraft and F-22P Frigates. Pakistan will receive the transfer of technology for the FC-20/J-10s as well. China recognizes that Pakistan is rich with human capital in the high-tech defense industry, which serves as a magnet for its investment. Both China and Pakistan look to capture wider defense export markets in Asia, Africa and the Middle East. At the same time, their growing cooperation in aviation and naval defense systems signals an important shift in Pakistan&#8217;s military doctrine that traditionally favored Army (especially ground forces) over its sister services&#8212;Navy and Air Force. In the region&#8217;s changing strategic environment, in which China has growing stakes, Pakistan has come to recognize the critical importance of air and naval defense. The China-Pakistan collaboration in aviation and naval defense amply embodies this recognition.
> 
> ASIAN DEFENCE: " FC-20":The New Cornerstone of Sino-Pakistani Defense Cooperation



ya another Moin Ansari, one thing I cant understand about his articles is that he gives it all to armed forces, his articles state that PAF will have J-10 and J-11 as well with ToT. Now here i raise credibility doubts


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## TOPGUN

hasnain0099 said:


> ya another Moin Ansari, one thing I cant understand about his articles is that he gives it all to armed forces, his articles state that PAF will have J-10 and J-11 as well with ToT. Now here i raise credibility doubts



Where did he mention the j-11's? perhaps i miss that part.....

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## DaRk WaVe

hasnain0099 said:


> ya another Moin Ansari, one thing I cant understand about his articles is that he gives it all to armed forces, his articles state that PAF will have J-10 and J-11 as well with ToT. Now here i raise credibility doubts



its By Tarique Niazi


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## SBD-3

emo_girl said:


> its By Tarique Niazi


ya only posted by moin ansari, now i stand corrected 
J-10: The New heart of Sino-Pakistani Defense Nexus Rupee News


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## SBD-3

TOPGUN said:


> Where did he mention the j-11's? perhaps i miss that part.....



http://rupeenews.com/2008/04/23/why-did-pakistan-buy-fewer-f-16s-hint-indigenous-flanker/


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## MZUBAIR

I am feeling that PAF wants J-10B with TOT, and 150 in number.


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## SBD-3

MZUBAIR said:


> I am feeling that PAF wants J-10B with TOT, and 150 in number.



ya i think so as well.......but someone also said that navy is thinking about J-11s


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## Hunter911

Growler said:


> Thanks buddy... thats exactly what i am trying to say. China needs some time to improve its military technology "indigenously". Lets give china about 20-30 years and i can confidently say their technology will be par with western without even copying the way how they have really advanced. and like you have said about the GDP.. heck with that GDP even western companies would wana invest or even run away from their country to help china.
> But to say that today china has mastered technology and are on par with west is no right.



pakistan have been doing a lot of works for china from 1955 ,and that's a very ,very key esential factor in the progress and sucess of china. but today india they've copyed the same way with chinese rivals,enimies,then in order to defeat its ... 
So,be careful with such games!

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## wangrong

*WS-10 Engine*

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## Arsalan

without TV???


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## wangrong

arsalanaslam123 said:


> without TV???



Do you know the difference between ws-10 and AL31?


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## Dr-Sangeen

I have been contributing to this forum for almost two months now. During this i time i have fought with the sheer arrogance of the moderators and admins of this forum. 

The final straw was when they closed my welcome thread, as some of my friends were posting there. 

I asked them for a reason and the reply was and i quote " i shall consider myself lucky that it was allowed for that long..." 

No I don't consider myself lucky at all, they shall consider themselves lucky that people, like myself, waste their time by posting on this web page. 

As far as i am concern if my welcome thread is not good enough to be here then they don't deserve to have my other contributions to this forum either.

Hence i am withdrawing all my posts from this forum.


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## illuminatus

Dr-Sangeen said:


> This is a slightly off the topic question but can anyone tell me what are the implications for Pakistan regarding Saab's GrippenIN offer to India?
> 
> You can get further information from following link:
> 
> Gripen - The wings of your nation - Gripen NG for India



The MMRCA tender is bound to have implications for PAF in any case. Any contender that is chosen by the IAF is going to pose challenges. Gripen wouldn't be an exception in that regard. Fortunately, Pakistan can rely on China for more advanced aircraft such as the FC-20 and other future platforms to counter such acquisitions.


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## BATMAN

wangrong said:


> *WS-10 Engine*



Congrats........ any feed back from the flight tests?


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## SBD-3

wangrong said:


> *WS-10 Engine*



J-11 can afford WS-10 or WS-10A because it has *2* engines the same is opposit for J-10 where the sole dependence is on the single engine so reliability should be spot on. J-11 is a good test bed for WS-10 series as it has more chance to servive as compared to J-10 in case of an engine failure. Develop it uptill it become both mature and reliable to be able to implement itself on J-10

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## razgriz19

i dont really know about its specs against modern 4/4.5 generation fighter.......but for looks it is probably one of sexiest jet i've ever seen

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## Dr-Sangeen

I have been contributing to this forum for almost two months now. During this i time i have fought with the sheer arrogance of the moderators and admins of this forum. 

The final straw was when they closed my welcome thread, as some of my friends were posting there. 

I asked them for a reason and the reply was and i quote " i shall consider myself lucky that it was allowed for that long..." 

No I don't consider myself lucky at all, they shall consider themselves lucky that people, like myself, waste their time by posting on this web page. 

As far as i am concern if my welcome thread is not good enough to be here then they don't deserve to have my other contributions to this forum either.

Hence i am withdrawing all my posts from this forum.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## TaimiKhan

Dr-Sangeen said:


> Thanks for the answer. But my main issue that i can see in it is the ToT and the level of ToT that is on offer.
> 
> furthermore, JF17 is less advanced then J11/J10. would it not be better that Pakistan seek joint venture on J10 or J11, cut the number of JF17 its going to order, work on having AESA Radar and work on ToT on J11 forging long term partnership in future projects as well like 5 gen projects the way India is doing with Russia.
> 
> if we do do go that way what are the pros and cons of adopting all Chinese airframes from PAF while updating the radars and other bits and bobs wherever necessary...
> 
> i think this will give a strategic direction to PAF and we will know where do we want to go in future what are the strengths, weaknesses and opportunities, threats. Rather then going around from time to time and see what we can get and what we can not get... and meanwhile having nothing much to rely on.
> 
> We desperately need a strategic partnerships now more then ever. I wouldn't call JF17 a strategic partnership as China itself isnt that interested in buying them. it would have been a partnership if China was to induct substantial numbers into PLAAF.
> 
> Other question that arises from above is that how flexible is Kamra? if we want to move from JF17 to FC20 (assuming we take strategic partnership with china) how much can we carry over from existing pool of resources? would we have to develop totally new assembly lines or the current ones can multi role. I am sure Human Capital will be versatile enough......
> 
> 
> 
> Sellers like Saab etc will not want to deal with Pakistan if they have a bigger buyer like India with much bigger orders to place. we can see that many main brands are bending over backwards to get India buy their products. its only a matter of time that USA offer them F35 as the marketing model of F35 is very similar to F16 and India can be a good market for it (depending on Russian PAK-FA developments)
> 
> any comments?



Well Sir, when JF-17 was being made or started, PAF did knew about J-10 and even when Musharaf went to China to sign the agreement he was shown the J-10 manufacturing plant also. So with Pak-China history it can be safely assumed that PAF was and must have been shown the J-10, but if it still went for the JF-17 means PAF evaluated its strategic objectives and opted for the JF-17 which full fills the role it has been been selected for. Well i have no idea about the PAF mindset, but some of the logic behind JF-17 comes to mind would be first of all price, as its half the price of any modern 4th gen fighter aircraft, even half the price of J-10. 2ndly it has been seen to have good export prospects as a lot of airforces around the world would like to have an aircraft like JF-17 in this price range which can replace a lot of old outdated aircraft of these air forces and especially if PAF is using them, it raises the stakes of export, and exports would be revenues which would help us fund other major fighter aircraft programs. 3rdly we don't have much of a huge airspace to defend, width wise our country lacks dept thus these fighters don't have to go at lengths to intercept incoming enemy aircraft, plus major Indian air fields and strategic locations vital for us are within a few hundred miles of the border, where JF-17 can easily reach and accomplish its mission. And smaller the aircraft, smaller the RCS, harder for radars to detect at longer ranges, so if a mission can be accomplished by a JF-17, why send a J-10 for it. PAF main objective is to defend its airspace and if possible attack the enemy vital installations, which both functions can be done by a JF-17, so why use a bigger more expensive more fuel guzzler J-10 or even F-16. Let these heavy aircrafts do the fight against the other heavy weights. 

And most important of all, JF-17 has still to go a long way to become a mature platform, composites are still left to be used, AESA radars and many other things, which will make into a deadly platform fully capable enough to defend pakistani airspace. 

We need a capable SAM system to augment the fighter aircrafts, as our first priority is to keep our airspace clean and have a power punch, which BVR precision weapons like Ra'ad, JDAMs kind and cruise missiles can provide. 

So no need for J-10 ToT as we most probably would be full with export orders. Plus the new JF-17 plant is big enough as its specifically made for plane production, hope you have seen the pictures of the new production infrastructure.

PLAAF has not yet officially rejected the JF-17/FC-1 nor any official news has surfaced. One of the major issue hampering FC-1 order may be the engine as per Chinese websites as China is already depended on Russian engines fully for their J-10 and J-11 fighters, their main strike weapons, so if another aircraft also needs dependence on russian engines would be less attractive for them. So let a Chinese engine for FC-1 come then we would be for certain whether FC-1 is required by PLAAF or not. By the way a 6th Prototype Pt-06 with Chinese communication equipment is still being flown in China, which may suggest its still going through testing and evaluation with fully Chinese systems. 

As for J-11, first russian won't allow as its their designed fighter aircraft, IPR issue, and then the engine would be the major issue as again its a much superior engine then RD-93 that we currently got. India may never allow it nor would Russia. And most importantly PAF doctrine is not for twin engine fighters as they are more expensive to maintain and operational maintenance nearly twice the time of a single engined fighter, requiring nearly double human resource too. Plus we don't need a twin engine aircraft to do the functions required to achieve the objectives as per PAF doctrine. 

Anything left, plz do let me know.

Hope i was brief, as still had so much to write

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## Dr-Sangeen

I have been contributing to this forum for almost two months now. During this i time i have fought with the sheer arrogance of the moderators and admins of this forum. 

The final straw was when they closed my welcome thread, as some of my friends were posting there. 

I asked them for a reason and the reply was and i quote " i shall consider myself lucky that it was allowed for that long..." 

No I don't consider myself lucky at all, they shall consider themselves lucky that people, like myself, waste their time by posting on this web page. 

As far as i am concern if my welcome thread is not good enough to be here then they don't deserve to have my other contributions to this forum either.

Hence i am withdrawing all my posts from this forum.


----------



## mean_bird

Dr-Sangeen said:


> Bravo a very good answer. thank you very much.
> 
> but one final thing .... i asked about aligning ourselves completely with China thus having complete vision of future plans etc. is it possible ?
> 
> again thanks for comprehensive answer.



It is dangerous in today's world to align oneself completely to one supplier no matter how 'close' you are. PAF has learnt its lessons from the F-16 and is and should try to diversify and more importantly become self reliant especially on major assets. You don't want to find yourself in a situation where one nation can cause a major damage if it ever wanted to. Also, being completely reliant on a particular nation weakens your bargaining power and makes you even more dependent. I think the current policy is balance enough. 

Also there are a lot of other things and partnerships with china. For example, the gwadar port investment, broadening the KKH and possibly railway in future, cooperation in space technology, launching of our satellites by china, etc on the non-military side as well as JF-17, its joint sale and marketing, FC-20, ZDK-03, K-8 trainers, etc. Also the JF-17 is NOT a finished product but would evolve in the future. The cooperation is quite enough I would say. 

Hope that replies to your post

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## BATMAN

If we are talking about aircrafts than today... in shape of JF-17 Pakistan stand at a position that it is independent of reliance on one supplier.
Where as Pakistan and China concern they share strategic interests.
Much beyond what mean burd just listed.... i believe stability of China is subjected to stability of Pakistan,especially the adjoining areas of Gilgit Baltistan need to be kept clean from any religous fanatics and foreign conspirators.


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## qsaark

> It is dangerous in today's world to align oneself completely to one supplier no matter how 'close' you are. PAF has learnt its lessons from the F-16 and is and should try to diversify and more importantly become self reliant especially on major assets. You don't want to find yourself in a situation where one nation can cause a major damage if it ever wanted to. Also, being completely reliant on a particular nation weakens your bargaining power and makes you even more dependent. I think the current policy is balance enough.


There is no question that one should not align itself with any one supplier, however, one also has to take the history into consideration. We had a bad bad experience with US, but were this for the first time? Did something different happen during the 1965 war? During the entire decade of 1970, Pakistan could not buy any platform from the US in spite of its interest in the Americans planes. US was not willing to sell us anything that would bring us at par or even close to at par with the Indians, instead we were offered the A-7s? What we were going to do with the A7s? It was only the Soviet invasion that opened up a window of opportunity that was closed soon after the Soviets left Afghanistan. 

Now compare this with our dealing with the Chinese. They did not give us their frontline platforms, probably because we were not able to purchase them, or probably because the PAF considered the Chinese hardware as the last resort; but they did sell us their next most sophisticated platforms (as per Chinese standards), the ones that were already making the backbone of their own air force. They did not hesitate to let us modernize those planes with western technology and helped us building their maintenance and overhauling facilities. They made us a partner in the JF-17 project and welcomed our input in the project. 

Bottom line is, like you, I am not in favor of putting all my eggs in one basket, but whenever the situation called for, Chinese never showed hesitance to support us whole nine yards.

We have to admit that we are not like India who is for certain reasons, in the good books of all the major high technology/armament suppliers; and not only that, she is as much capable of affording even the most expensive platforms available to any foreign customers. Our options are ridiculously limited, and if we have to maintain a minimum level of conventional deterrence, we would have to avoid from inducting technology from several sources since these technologies always come attached with some strings. US technology is notorious for the conditions it comes with, but European technologies are also not free of this crap. I would suggest that we should take our cooperation with the Chinese to an entirely new level, send more and more engineers and Scientists to China and hire Chinese in our academic and research institution on preferential basis. We have to get rid of our inferiority complex about the so called superior western/American technology. Chinese technology is developing in leaps and bounds and this is the right time to invest into their technology and learn from their experience.

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## BATMAN

hasnain0099 said:


> J-11 can afford WS-10 or WS-10A because it has *2* engines the same is opposit for J-10 where the sole dependence is on the single engine so reliability should be spot on. J-11 is a good test bed for WS-10 series as it has more chance to servive as compared to J-10 in case of an engine failure. Develop it uptill it become both mature and reliable to be able to implement itself on J-10



I believe WS-10 isunder development and later testing for long period of time. It has been already tested on J-10A.
Technical reliability, issues are normally spoted in lab testing and design reliability issues are spotted in flight tests.
Once it serial production starts it can be accepted as an engine for J-10B.
I don't remember.....but one of our member quite rightly said 'a bird in hand is better than 10 in the bush'

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## Quwa

Regarding J-10B, I don't think Russian engines would be an issue, but, beyond the Chinese WS-10 and WS-10A, there is also the next-gen WS-15.


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## mean_bird

Mark Sien said:


> Regarding J-10B, I don't think Russian engines would be an issue, but, beyond the Chinese WS-10 and WS-10A, there is also the next-gen WS-15.



Yes but so far none has entered service or been long enough to prove its reliability. The only thing we have to go by is some J-11B pics "apparently" with chinese engines. WS-15 is even longer. 

So what are the chances they will be functional by the FC-20 timeline (and they have to be at least a year or two before for them to be fitted) and how reliable would they be for PAF to opt for them? 
These are serious questions that would need to be answered though we all hope for the best.


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## Quwa

mean_bird said:


> Yes but so far none has entered service or been long enough to prove its reliability. The only thing we have to go by is some J-11B pics "apparently" with chinese engines. WS-15 is even longer.
> 
> So what are the chances they will be functional by the FC-20 timeline (and they have to be at least a year or two before for them to be fitted) and how reliable would they be for PAF to opt for them?
> These are serious questions that would need to be answered though we all hope for the best.


Well the J-10B may be the platform where the WS-10A is being fine-tuned before it is introduced into service and production. Since the J-10B is not slated for entry until 2014-2015, the WS-10A by then shouldn't be an issue. The other likely option would be Russian engines, the PAF is already considering the Russian RD-93M for future JF-17s.


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## Dr-Sangeen

I have been contributing to this forum for almost two months now. During this i time i have fought with the sheer arrogance of the moderators and admins of this forum. 

The final straw was when they closed my welcome thread, as some of my friends were posting there. 

I asked them for a reason and the reply was and i quote " i shall consider myself lucky that it was allowed for that long..." 

No I don't consider myself lucky at all, they shall consider themselves lucky that people, like myself, waste their time by posting on this web page. 

As far as i am concern if my welcome thread is not good enough to be here then they don't deserve to have my other contributions to this forum either.

Hence i am withdrawing all my posts from this forum.

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## TaimiKhan

Dr-Sangeen said:


> Bravo a very good answer. thank you very much.
> 
> but one final thing .... i asked about aligning ourselves completely with China thus having complete vision of future plans etc. is it possible ?
> 
> again thanks for comprehensive answer.



Well i believe you got enough answers for your query , anyway i believe PAF should take up this path as that is the best solution for it. PAF should send more aeronautical engineering students each year for studies and training to China & elsewhere if possible and develop countr's own aerospace infrastructure as it will help in future. 

China has a future potential, they are gonna make heavy airlift transporters, they are aiming for civilian aircrafts, so if we make our own infrastructure we can become self reliant to a great extent. 

Plus i believe PAF might try to keep and acquire a western 4+ gen fighter to compare its performance with its Chinese counterparts & keep itself updated to the latest gen of avionics in market. 

And this western platform is gonna be the one which mostly would be used in the arab world, i believe that you know why

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## Kompromat

taimikhan said:


> Well i believe you got enough answers for your query , anyway i believe PAF should take up this path as that is the best solution for it. *PAF should send more aeronautical engineering students each year for studies and training to China & elsewhere if possible and develop countr's own aerospace infrastructure as it will help in future. *
> 
> China has a future potential, they are gonna make heavy airlift transporters, they are aiming for civilian aircrafts, so if we make our own infrastructure we can become self reliant to a great extent.
> 
> Plus i believe PAF might try to keep and acquire a western 4+ gen fighter to compare its performance with its Chinese counterparts & keep itself updated to the latest gen of avionics in market.
> 
> And this western platform is gonna be the one which mostly would be used in the arab world, i believe that you know why




sir i just need to know that , what skill is most needed for PAF ? is it Engineering or Avionics ?


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## TaimiKhan

Black blood said:


> sir i just need to know that , what skill is most needed for PAF ? is it Engineering or Avionics ?



Aeronautical engineering will nearly cover all the things. 

Engines are the hardest of all, but atleast we should be able to make max spare parts needed and overhaul them locally and making them would required decades and decades. We can buy engines and fit them in Pakistan. 

Read the below to get a good idea how what i mean. 

Aerospace engineering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## mean_bird

Mark Sien said:


> Well the J-10B may be the platform where the WS-10A is being fine-tuned before it is introduced into service and production. Since the J-10B is not slated for entry until 2014-2015, the WS-10A by then shouldn't be an issue. The other likely option would be Russian engines, the PAF is already considering the Russian RD-93M for future JF-17s.



Mark,

Its pretty unlikely that a new engine is tried and 'fine-tuned' in a single engine aircraft. So I do not believe that the J10B will be trying it out (unless it is already a proven engine).

The best chance we have is that those J-11B pics actually do have the WS-10A on it and that tests are (and have been for a while) going on for the engine to be thoroughly tested before being installed on the FC-20/J-10B. 

It remains to be seen if Russia will have a similar agreement with China as it did for the RD-93. It might be more politically sensitive than the RD-93 issue but nothing can be ruled out.


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## TaimiKhan

mean_bird said:


> Mark,
> 
> Its pretty unlikely that a new engine is tried and 'fine-tuned' in a single engine aircraft. So I do not believe that the J10B will be trying it out (unless it is already a proven engine).
> 
> The best chance we have is that those J-11B pics actually do have the WS-10A on it and that tests are (and have been for a while) going on for the engine to be thoroughly tested before being installed on the FC-20/J-10B.
> 
> It remains to be seen if Russia will have a similar agreement with China as it did for the RD-93. It might be more politically sensitive than the RD-93 issue but nothing can be ruled out.



As per Chinese defense forums there seems to be 2 variants of WS-10 engine series, one is the basic WS-10 variant at about 125Kn thrust and the WS-10A at 132Kn and most probably having TVC, as per picture reviews by some Chinese members. 

A recent picture of the designer of WS-10 series seen in a video shows WS-10 engine being manufactured in the background, and it seemed to be a mass production kind of facility as multiple WS-10s were being seen, and as per some other reports the production rate of components being used in WS-10 engines from plants have increased too. Suggesting that WS-10 is ready for service, while WS-10A is still in the trial and evaluation version. 

But again as per Chinese traditions, their defence products are kept secret till the last end and only rumors and some confirmed specifications are known, so we all can guess about the WS-10 and WS-10A engines and their status, but their real official status will be only known when they get started to be used or we see multiple aircrafts with WS-10 series engines like the above picture of J-11 with both engines as WS-10 or the A variant. 

But the emergence of the above picture if real may suggest that it has been started to be incorporated in the J-11s and that one of the variants has become operational.

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## mean_bird

Sometimes, you work with a technology and get stuck with it. You keep trying to work harder and harder but the improvements are marginal. It turns out, you need to try a different technology and that may work out faster, better and easier than spending time on what you got stuck with.

From the tidbits I have been reading on Chinese forums, it seems the same is happening with the Chinese engines. WS-10, WS-10A and WS-15. It appears the WS-15 is just not an enhanced version but technologically different. It may turn out that this is the breakthrough technology they have been waiting for, or atleast let's hope it is. 

We should not overlook this factor that it might as well be the WS-15. On the other hand, one nice sunny day you get the breakthrough you have been waiting for years in a manner you were least expecting. Anyone of these will be good news for the FC-20 though the more powerful engine the better. 

We know from former PAF chief's interview that 'technical negotiations' are almost over but the FC-20 timeline is quite a bit in the future. Engine could be just one of the many requirements. Systems mentioned in the technical requirement include a better radar, better avionics, and better weapons. To me this is a clear sign that the technical requirement is quite significant and the FC-20 will be 'one hell of a plane'


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## Tempest II

J-10 model with CFT wind tunnel testing

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## aimarraul



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## SBD-3

What about future development plans for J-10


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## lmjiao

mean_bird said:


> Yes but so far none has entered service or been long enough to prove its reliability. The only thing we have to go by is some J-11B pics "apparently" with chinese engines. WS-15 is even longer.
> 
> So what are the chances they will be functional by the FC-20 timeline (and they have to be at least a year or two before for them to be fitted) and how reliable would they be for PAF to opt for them?
> These are serious questions that would need to be answered though we all hope for the best.



Here is what you want


And see my thread bellow:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/42978-ws-10-taihang-ready.html


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## illuminatus

The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging - Grande Strategy

A very good read on J-10B if it hasn't already been posted.


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## SBD-3

it has been discussed, plz go through all the posts


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## owais.usmani

*Chinese Chengdu J-10 Emerges​*

Jan 14, 2010 
 
By Richard D. Fisher, Jr.
Washington 



Wrapped in secrecy for most of the decade following its 1998 test flight, Chengdu Aircraft Corp.s J-10 multirole fighter is set to enter the global market. Following a development history that extends to the 1960s, and five years in the Peoples Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), the J-10 may emerge in the market soon after 2010, offering capabilities approaching Lockheed Martins F-16C Block 60, at half the price.

About 150 J-10s may be in PLAAF units. This could exceed 300 based on Russian disclosures that China purchased 300-400 12.7-ton-thrust Salyut AL-31FN engines for the fighter. Pakistan, which received Chinese nuclear weapons technology and generations of conventional weapons, will be the debut J-10 customer.

Reports from Pakistan say a deal has been reached to sell 36 J-10s to Islamabad for $1.4 billion, about $40 million per unit. F-16C Block 60 fighters with AN/APG-80 active phased array radar were sold to the United Arab Emirates for about $80 million each. It is not known whether the price of Pakistans J-10 includes spares, support and training.

Pakistan could buy 70-150 J-10s. The country has been an F-16 operator since 1982, and is taking delivery of 18 F-16C/D Block 52 fighters, half of an expected sale of 36. Pakistani sources tell DTI that the J-10 is not expected to become a coproduction project with Pakistan. There have also been reports of interest in the J-10 by Iran, Myanmar and the Philippines.

China has not released data about the J-10. Recent Chinese media reports, however, offer the following: length, 16.43 meters (53.9 ft.); wingspan, 8.78 or 9.75 meters; maximum takeoff weight, 19,227 kg. (42,300 lb.); maximum weapons load, 7,000 kg.; combat radius, 1,100 km. (683 mi.); maximum speed, Mach 2; maneuverability, 9g.

Despite a history of Israeli and Russian design assistance, and its dependence on the Salyut engine, China touts the J-10 as a domestic product. November festivities marking the PLAAFs 60th anniversary featured a J-10 aerobatic display and the showing of a prototype and full-scale, twin-seat mockup at the national aviation museum.

Besides price, what makes the J-10 attractive is competitive electronic and weapon systems. The latest version, sometimes called the J-10B (or FC-20 when slated for Pakistan) emerged in Internet photos in January 2009. It features a diverterless supersonic inlet similar in principle to that of the Joint Strike *Fighter. The nose is redesigned, with an infrared search-and-track system in front of the windscreen and what appears to be a canted radar bulkhead consistent with a fixed electronically scanned array radar. If true, this would be a major advance for Chinas radar technology, and may make the J-10 competitive with upgraded Western and Russian fourth-generation-plus fighters. The cockpit is dominated by three multifunction displays and a head-up display.

The J-10 has 11 hardpoints, including five on the fuselage. Its principal counter-air weapon is the Luoyang PL&#8209;12 active radar-guided air-to-air missile (AAM) with 70-km. range. With a twin-AAM pylon on the inner wing mount, plus two on forward fuselage mounts, the J-10 could carry eight PL-12s. Short-range AAMs include the PL-8, a copy of the Israeli Python-3, and an improved version of this missile, the PL-9, both helmet-sighted. The J-10 may soon feature a more capable helmet-mounted display and a new fifth-generation AAM from Luoyang.

The fighters market success will depend on Chinas ability to produce reliable advanced turbofan engines. Rival fighter maker Shenyang has been developing its WS-10A Taihang turbofan since the mid-1980s, which could offer 13.2 tons of thrust. Russian sources believe it is beset by developmental difficulties.

Chengdu may have a competing Huashan advanced turbofan engine program, which some Chinese sources note is based on its late-1990s acquisition of the engineering data and sales rights to the Tumansky R-79 turbofan developed for the defunct Yakovlev Yak-141 supersonic vertical/short-takeoff-and-landing fighter. Nevertheless, Russian sources say China remains interested in more powerful versions of the Salyut AL-31FN, which could come in 13.5- and, eventually, 15-ton-thrust versions.

Chengdu remains ready to develop a carrier-based version of the J-10. During the PLAAF anniversary, a test pilot was reported noting that ground-test simulations prove the J-10 can operate from a carrier.


Chinese Chengdu J-10 Emerges

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## SBD-3

interesting indeed


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## DANGER-ZONE

owais.usmani said:


> *Chinese Chengdu J-10 Emerges​*
> 
> Jan 14, 2010
> 
> By Richard D. Fisher, Jr.
> Washington
> 
> 
> 
> Wrapped in secrecy for most of the decade following its 1998 test flight, Chengdu Aircraft Corp.s J-10 multirole fighter is set to enter the global market. Following a development history that extends to the 1960s, and five years in the Peoples Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), the J-10 may emerge in the market soon after 2010, offering capabilities approaching Lockheed Martins F-16C Block 60, at half the price.
> 
> About 150 J-10s may be in PLAAF units. This could exceed 300 based on Russian disclosures that China purchased 300-400 12.7-ton-thrust Salyut AL-31FN engines for the fighter. Pakistan, which received Chinese nuclear weapons technology and generations of conventional weapons, will be the debut J-10 customer.
> 
> Reports from Pakistan say a deal has been reached to sell 36 J-10s to Islamabad for $1.4 billion, about $40 million per unit. F-16C Block 60 fighters with AN/APG-80 active phased array radar were sold to the United Arab Emirates for about $80 million each. It is not known whether the price of Pakistans J-10 includes spares, support and training.
> 
> Pakistan could buy 70-150 J-10s. The country has been an F-16 operator since 1982, and is taking delivery of 18 F-16C/D Block 52 fighters, half of an expected sale of 36. Pakistani sources tell DTI that the J-10 is not expected to become a coproduction project with Pakistan. There have also been reports of interest in the J-10 by Iran, Myanmar and the Philippines.
> 
> China has not released data about the J-10. Recent Chinese media reports, however, offer the following: length, 16.43 meters (53.9 ft.); wingspan, 8.78 or 9.75 meters; maximum takeoff weight, 19,227 kg. (42,300 lb.); maximum weapons load, 7,000 kg.; combat radius, 1,100 km. (683 mi.); maximum speed, Mach 2; maneuverability, 9g.
> 
> Despite a history of Israeli and Russian design assistance, and its dependence on the Salyut engine, China touts the J-10 as a domestic product. November festivities marking the PLAAFs 60th anniversary featured a J-10 aerobatic display and the showing of a prototype and full-scale, twin-seat mockup at the national aviation museum.
> 
> *Besides price, what makes the J-10 attractive is competitive electronic and weapon systems. The latest version, sometimes called the J-10B (or FC-20 when slated for Pakistan) emerged in Internet photos in January 2009. It features a diverterless supersonic inlet similar in principle to that of the Joint Strike *Fighter. The nose is redesigned, with an infrared search-and-track system in front of the windscreen and what appears to be a canted radar bulkhead consistent with a fixed electronically scanned array radar. If true, this would be a major advance for Chinas radar technology, and may make the J-10 competitive with upgraded Western and Russian fourth-generation-plus fighters. The cockpit is dominated by three multifunction displays and a head-up display.
> 
> The J-10 has 11 hardpoints, including five on the fuselage. Its principal counter-air weapon is the Luoyang PL&#8209;12 active radar-guided air-to-air missile (AAM) with 70-km. range. With a twin-AAM pylon on the inner wing mount, plus two on forward fuselage mounts, the J-10 could carry eight PL-12s. Short-range AAMs include the PL-8, a copy of the Israeli Python-3, and an improved version of this missile, the PL-9, both helmet-sighted. The J-10 may soon feature a more capable helmet-mounted display and a new fifth-generation AAM from Luoyang.*
> The fighters market success will depend on Chinas ability to produce reliable advanced turbofan engines. Rival fighter maker Shenyang has been developing its WS-10A Taihang turbofan since the mid-1980s, which could offer 13.2 tons of thrust. Russian sources believe it is beset by developmental difficulties.
> 
> Chengdu may have a competing Huashan advanced turbofan engine program, which some Chinese sources note is based on its late-1990s acquisition of the engineering data and sales rights to the Tumansky R-79 turbofan developed for the defunct Yakovlev Yak-141 supersonic vertical/short-takeoff-and-landing fighter. Nevertheless, Russian sources say China remains interested in more powerful versions of the Salyut AL-31FN, which could come in 13.5- and, eventually, 15-ton-thrust versions.
> 
> Chengdu remains ready to develop a carrier-based version of the J-10. During the PLAAF anniversary, a test pilot was reported noting that ground-test simulations prove the J-10 can operate from a carrier.
> 
> 
> Chinese Chengdu J-10 Emerges



this is what people should read
great job

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## SBD-3

I heard about PL-14 BVRAAM but not new WVRAAM....any updates on this


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## hboGYT

hasnain0099 said:


> I heard about PL-14 BVRAAM but not new WVRAAM....any updates on this



You mean PL-13?


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## SBD-3

hboGYT said:


> You mean PL-13?



Yes to be presice PL-13/14 Ramjet based LRAAM


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## Dazzler

Just to share with all friends what i heard (some of it off course) feom a reliable source, 

The J-10 variant tested last year to which we know as J-10 B is not actually the J-10 B but in reality, is the FC-20. The aircraft featured everything that the PAF asked from Chinese friends from IRST to DSI intake. All the requirements were associated in the aircraft including the radar which is still being tested as of now. Nriet is very close to develop an AESA variant for FC-20 as well as jf-17. They are now so confident that they are pitting both radars for competition with western western firms. Some really interesting developments indeed but the eventual winner in either case will be. The PAF !!!


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## Dazzler

Just to share with all friends what i heard (some of it off course) feom a reliable source, 

The J-10 variant tested last year to which we know as J-10 B is not actually the J-10 B but in reality, is the FC-20. The aircraft featured everything that the PAF asked from Chinese friends from IRST to DSI intake. All the requirements were associated in the aircraft including the radar which is still being tested as of now. Nriet is very close to develop an AESA variant for FC-20 as well as jf-17. They are now so confident that they are pitting both radars for competition with western western firms. Some really interesting developments indeed but the eventual winner in either case will be. The PAF !!!

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## SBD-3

J-10B will be FC-20, its confirmed from other sources as well.Adding to you, PLAAF also see a twin engine J-10 reaching Typhoon standard known as J-10C


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## ejaz007

Came across this link thought should share:

Pak to buy 14 Chinese fighter jets, 114 more may come


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## Super Falcon

Industry Corporation 
And has produced specifically for the Air Force of the People's Liberation Army
And called the name of the West Vigorous Dragon Dragon awakening and the fighter J-10 You can fight in all weather conditions day and night and compares China with F16 and Mirage 2000 and the program was J-10 A secret and very mysterious until formally announced in the December 26, 2006 and that by the News Network Chinese Kinwa 

Program:
Program Fighter Support the first time by Chinese leader Deng Khiaobing, which exchange very large sums on the project, but have been working on the project officially by the government Chinese In early 1986 and has been launched by the fighters to fight the new fourth-generation and the government had agreed Chinese To make it be the same specifications of the MiG-29 and the Su-27 Soviet 
At the beginning of the project was Fighter Ad hoc, but later was modified and increase the project budget and turned into a multi-role fighter 
Journal of children in China in 1979 published a picture in one of the themes of the children a picture of a child Chini a plane with his hand and playing with the form of the plane is very similar to b J-10 This indicates that the project began in 1979 
Despite the fact that the project started before 1979 did not go by the government Chinese Formal and as I mentioned earlier, the agency Kinwa in 2006 announced Fighter But the government and Chinese Allowed for the first time in June 2007 and the first published pictures of the images were obtained on the agency Kinwa Alr.s. and has been so secretive and vague, and it was the first test in 1997 and crashed in one of the planes and was not successful and the first successful test was on March 23 1998 and entered service in 2004 after 18 years of development, and converted to multi-task and I was the successful test by the pilot Lee Kiang in the March 23, 1998, lasted the test period of twenty minutes, and in 2003 was tested again and then on December 21, 2003 was tested on the fighting and were fired Zkrp live in the test and the first squadron was obtained by the 131 Squadron of the Task Force 44 

General information about theJ-10 :
Type: multi-tasking

Country of Origin: China
Record Label: Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation Designer: Institute Chengdu Aircraft design
First flight date: March 23, 1998
Date Posted: 2005
Users: China and have both versions of the 128 single-seat and two seats and will own China in the coming years, more than 300 fighter
Pakistan has asked 36 and will be delivered in 2014-2015 

Date of Production: 2003 to Today

Product number: more than 180 
Price: $ 28 million
$ 41 million for copies of export with spare parts and
Maintenance 




States that used by China:
Although China and bones and how big, but others engaged in the production and fight them, according to official sources, which says that the J-10 Is an enhanced version of the Chengdu J-9 but there is conflicting reports that there is a connection with the program Fighter Israeli IAI Lavi and the failure of the Israeli program for a long time and maybe I helped China in the J-10 
But in an exclusive interview with lead designer, Mr. Sung and Ikong on state television, he said Mr.: (Our nation has produced in Almqaltp own and structure and Aerodinamekadtha alone without the cooperation with foreigners and this makes me very proud, and that the J-9 We created in the sixties are Aonta by Canard But those who claim that the J-10 Is a copy of the Lavi Israel says it Hraat and make me laugh)


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## mean_bird

*J-10 fighter enters international market at $40 million​*







Recently, the U.S. think tank, International Assessment and Strategy Center, published an article about the Chinese J-10 fighter. The article claimed that the J-10 fighter is about to enter the international market after 2010, while its price tag of 40 million U.S. dollars is half of its U.S. counterpart, the F-16 fighter.

According to the article, the J-10 fighter is going to sell on the international weapons market around 2010 after extensive R&D and equipping of the Chinese Air Force is complete. It is understood that the Chinese Air Force started developing J-10 back in the 1960s, and it has been fully equipped for the last five years.

*The progress that China has made in developing the engine makes the fighter very competitive on international markets*; while with its good quality electronics and weapon systems, the price is just half of an American F-16. Pakistan is sure to be the first buyer, and many countries including Iran and the Philippines are also planning to introduce the fighter.

According to Pakistani sources, Pakistan has already reached an agreement with China to buy 36 J-10 fighters at a total value of 1.4 billion U.S. dollars (40 million U.S. dollars for each fighter). While the single price for an F-16, which U.S. sold to the UAE affiliated with AN/APG-80 radar, was 80 million U.S dollars. At the moment it is unclear whether spare parts, maintenance support, training and other services are included into the J-10's price. It is estimated that Pakistan might buy 70 to 150 J-10 fighters in all.






*Besides price, what makes the J-10 attractive is its competitive electronics and weapon systems.* *The latest version, sometimes called the J-10B (or FC-20 when slated for Pakistan) emerged in Internet photos in January 2009.* It features a driverless supersonic inlet similar in principle to that of the Joint Strike Fighter. The nose is redesigned, with an infrared search-and-track system in front of the windscreen and what appears to be a canted radar bulkhead consisting of a fixed, electronically scanned array radar. If true, this would be a major advance for China's radar technology, and may make the J-10 competitive with upgraded Western and Russian fourth-generation-plus fighters. The cockpit is dominated by three multifunction displays and a heads-up display.

The J-10 has 11 hardpoints, including five on the fuselage. Its principal counter-air weapon is the Luoyang PL 12 active radar-guided air-to-air missile (AAM) with 70-km. range. With a twin-AAM pylon on the inner wing mount, plus two on forward fuselage mounts, *the J-10 can carry eight PL-12s. *Short-range AAMs include the PL-8, a copy of the Israeli Python-3, and an improved version of this missile, the PL-9, both helmet-sighted. *The J-10 may soon feature a more capable helmet-mounted display and a new fifth-generation AAM from Luoyang.*

The fighter's market success will depend on China's ability to produce reliable advanced turbofan engines. Rival fighter maker *Shenyang has been developing its WS-10A Taihang turbofan since the mid-1980s*, which could offer 13.2 tons of thrust. Russian sources believe it is beset by developmental difficulties.

*Chengdu may have a competing Huashan advanced turbofan engine program, which some Chinese sources note is based on its late-1990s acquisition of the engineering data and sales rights to the Tumansky R-79 turbofan developed for the defunct Yakovlev Yak-141 supersonic vertical/short-takeoff-and-landing fighter. Nevertheless, Russian sources say China remains interested in more powerful versions of the Salyut AL-31FN, which could come in 13.5- and, eventually, 15-ton-thrust versions.
*
Chengdu remains ready to develop a carrier-based version of the J-10. During the PLAAF anniversary, a test pilot was reported noting that ground-test simulations prove the J-10 can operate from a carrier.

Global Times contributes to the story

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## Arsalan

*@ mean_bird*

nice to hear from you after so long..
well i hope all these things mentioned in the article turn out to be true as soon as possible. this wont only help PAF's future procurement in shape of FC20 but will aslo help to take the already existing JF17 to a new level.
the future of PAF and thus overall Pakistan military forces heavily dependent on these two planes!!

regards!

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

THIS PLAN DESERVES A NICKNAME 

"VENOM" ...

Oh yes J10 VENOM -


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## BATMAN

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> THIS PLAN DESERVES A NICKNAME
> 
> "VENOM" ...
> 
> Oh yes J10 VENOM -



No.... this is not good name...it sounds too satanic.

Star or Hawk sounds beter.



> The fighter's market success will depend on China's ability to produce reliable advanced turbofan engines.


This is some thing China should take Pakistan on board, perhaps a joint development could be good direction.


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## BATMAN

nabil_05 said:


> Just to share with all friends what i heard (some of it off course) feom a reliable source,
> 
> The J-10 variant tested last year to which we know as J-10 B is not actually the J-10 B but in reality, is the FC-20. The aircraft featured everything that the PAF asked from Chinese friends from IRST to DSI intake. All the requirements were associated in the aircraft including the radar which is still being tested as of now. Nriet is very close to develop an AESA variant for FC-20 as well as jf-17. They are now so confident that they are pitting both radars for competition with western western firms. Some really interesting developments indeed but the eventual winner in either case will be. The PAF !!!



Now from article:


> what makes the J-10 attractive is its competitive electronics and weapon systems. The latest version, sometimes called the J-10B (or FC-20 when slated for Pakistan) emerged in Internet photos in January 2009. It features a driverless supersonic inlet similar in principle to that of the Joint Strike Fighter. The nose is redesigned, with an infrared search-and-track system in front of the windscreen and what appears to be a canted radar bulkhead consisting of a fixed, electronically scanned array radar. If true, this would be a major advance for China's radar technology, and may make the J-10 competitive with upgraded Western and Russian fourth-generation-plus fighters. The cockpit is dominated by three multifunction displays and a heads-up display.


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## mean_bird

The J10b is nothing but a name given to it by internet forums. Officially the plane does not exist so it doesn't even have a name. Though it might end up actually being J10b similar to J11b.

The idea that this is the plane pakistan is going to get makes more sense considering PAF chief had said that the J10A lacks in what PAF wanted and they had demanded various enhancements. Similarly, the designation FC-20 also hints at this being something (even if slightly) different from the J10 already existing.

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## Dazzler

Batman

what was the point of your post?


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## BATMAN

Yes... indeed but FC-20 should have some name! like thunder for JF-17


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## BATMAN

nabil_05 said:


> Batman
> 
> what was the point of your post?



I just hinted that the main reason of J-10's popularity is FC-20 version which you exactly mentioned just above.
I was just highlighting the analogy of your post and international article.

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## DANGER-ZONE

in the mid of 2009 i met a family friend of mine who is an airforce engineer.
i never took it serious that what he told me.

he told me on my enquiry about FC20
"*F-10(FC-20) will be superior to all chinese aircraft in service except of chinese sukhois(i think he ment to say j11 n su30).it could load up to 10 BVRAAM and two short-range AAM under wing(outer hard point),with total sum of missiles 12 and leaving two of four belly hard point free that are behind.its belly tank would have increased capacity of more then 300gal with CFTs 200gal(100 each).PAF will also get PL-13 for F-10 and JF-17.it would have increased loadind capacity and will be fitted with Chinese made engine.f-10 will also carry westren weapons specilly aim-120*"
*he also said that May be f-10 get phased aray radar but not cofirmed.i also heard it from EMO-GIRL*.


it is much similar to the articals para.
The J-10 has 11 hardpoints, including five on the fuselage. Its principal counter-air weapon is the Luoyang PL&#8209;12 active radar-guided air-to-air missile (AAM) with 70-km. range. With a twin-AAM pylon on the inner wing mount, plus two on forward fuselage mounts, the J-10 could carry eight PL-12s. Short-range AAMs include the PL-8, a copy of the Israeli Python-3, and an improved version of this missile, the PL-9, both helmet-sighted. The J-10 may soon feature a more capable helmet-mounted display and a new fifth-generation AAM from Luoyang.
The fighter&#8217;s market success will depend on China&#8217;s ability to produce reliable advanced turbofan engines. Rival fighter maker Shenyang has been developing its WS-10A Taihang turbofan since the mid-1980s, which could offer 13.2 tons of thrust. Russian sources believe it is beset by developmental difficulties.




after reading the newly released artical about j10b i am confirmed about f-10s capabilities and it will be a really rocking fighter which could really kiks MKIs and MMRCAs butt.


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## Kompromat

@ BATMAN 

Do you have any idea about the AIM-120 AMRAAM purchase ?

I am concerned that we might need the AIM-120/D which has a range over 208 kms to counter larger MKI radar and Its BVRMs


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## monitor

what about the weapons load on FC-20/J-10 mrca ?
little confused and concern about it as most of the wesite i visited tells that it has a weapons load of 4500 kg not 7000 kg mention in the article .
is it going to increase its weapons loading capacity or just a buzz??


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## DaRk WaVe

Black blood said:


> @ BATMAN
> 
> Do you have any idea about the AIM-120 AMRAAM purchase ?
> 
> I am concerned that we might need the AIM-120/D which has a range over 208 kms to counter larger MKI radar and Its BVRMs



we will be on the defense, couple all PAF jets with AWACS the radar advantage of MKI can be nullified 

Americans won't be selling us AIM-120D

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## DANGER-ZONE

Black blood said:


> @ BATMAN
> 
> Do you have any idea about the AIM-120 AMRAAM purchase ?
> 
> I am concerned that we might need the AIM-120/D which has a range over 208 kms to counter larger MKI radar and Its BVRMs



wow bro its not 208 km...
its 150+ range is mentioned on various web sites and from reliable sources its range is 180km maximum.






we can never get this thing and stop dreaming and say good by to uncle sam.its better for us that not to engage more weaponry deals with them.


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## Tiger Awan

emo_girl said:


> we will be on the defense, couple all PAF jets with AWACS the radar advantage of MKI can be nullified



But with SAMs and anti radiation missiles i do not think so that our (and also indian) AWACS will be very near to the combat area.

If we keep them about 150-200 km away from combat aircrafts then we are left with at maximum 200km coverage.

Is that enough?

MKI radar has 200 km tracking range!!!!!


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## TOPGUN

Does anyone have new ps pic's of our fc-20?


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## zagahaga

just a heads up we are going to get j 10b .... only j 10


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## mean_bird

*"Yesterday, Chinese Central Television confirmed that J10 has equiped with Chinese AESA."*

xposted from SDF


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## DaRk WaVe

TOPGUN said:


> Does anyone have new ps pic's of our fc-20?



​


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## Kompromat

*J-10 fighter enters international market at $40 million
16:29, January 21, 2010 *






Recently, the U.S. think tank, International Assessment and Strategy Center, published an article about the Chinese J-10 fighter. The article claimed that the J-10 fighter is about to enter the international market after 2010, while its price tag of 40 million U.S. dollars is half of its U.S. counterpart, the F-16 fighter.

According to the article, the J-10 fighter is going to sell on the international weapons market around 2010 after extensive R&D and equipping of the Chinese Air Force is complete. It is understood that the Chinese Air Force started developing J-10 back in the 1960s, and it has been fully equipped for the last five years.

The progress that China has made in developing the engine makes the fighter very competitive on international markets; while with its good quality electronics and weapon systems, the price is just half of an American F-16. Pakistan is sure to be the first buyer, and many countries including Iran and the Philippines are also planning to introduce the fighter.






*According to Pakistani sources, Pakistan has already reached an agreement with China to buy 36 J-10 fighters at a total value of 1.4 billion U.S. dollars (40 million U.S. dollars for each fighter). While the single price for an F-16, which U.S. sold to the UAE affiliated with AN/APG-80 radar, was 80 million U.S dollars.* At the moment it is unclear whether spare parts, maintenance support, training and other services are included into the J-10's price. It is estimated that *Pakistan might buy 70 to 150 J-10 fighters in all.
*

Besides price, what makes the J-10 attractive is its competitive electronics and weapon systems. *The latest version, sometimes called the J-10B (or FC-20 when slated for Pakistan) emerged in Internet photos in January 2009. It features a driverless supersonic inlet similar in principle to that of the Joint Strike Fighter. The nose is redesigned, with an infrared search-and-track system in front of the windscreen and what appears to be a canted radar bulkhead consisting of a fixed, electronically scanned array radar (AESA?). If true, this would be a major advance for China's radar technology, and may make the J-10 competitive with upgraded Western and Russian fourth-generation-plus fighters.* The cockpit is dominated by three multifunction displays and a heads-up display.

The J-10 has 11 hardpoints, including five on the fuselage. Its principal counter-air weapon is the Luoyang PL 12 active radar-guided air-to-air missile (AAM) with 70-km. range. With a twin-AAM pylon on the inner wing mount, plus two on forward fuselage mounts, the J-10 can carry eight PL-12s. Short-range AAMs include the PL-8, a copy of the Israeli Python-3, and an improved version of this missile, the PL-9, both helmet-sighted. The J-10 may soon feature a more capable helmet-mounted display and a new fifth-generation AAM from Luoyang.

The fighter's market success will depend on China's ability to produce reliable advanced turbofan engines. Rival fighter maker Shenyang has been developing its WS-10A Taihang turbofan since the mid-1980s, which could offer 13.2 tons of thrust. Russian sources believe it is beset by developmental difficulties.

Chengdu may have a competing Huashan advanced turbofan engine program, which some Chinese sources note is based on its late-1990s acquisition of the engineering data and sales rights to the Tumansky R-79 turbofan developed for the defunct Yakovlev Yak-141 supersonic vertical/short-takeoff-and-landing fighter. Nevertheless, Russian sources say China remains interested in more powerful versions of the Salyut AL-31FN, which could come in 13.5- and, eventually, 15-ton-thrust versions.

Chengdu remains ready to develop a carrier-based version of the J-10. During the PLAAF anniversary, a test pilot was reported noting that ground-test simulations prove the J-10 can operate from a carrier.

Global Times contributes to the story

By People's Daily Online

J-10 fighter enters international market at $40 million - People's Daily Online


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## Kompromat

TOPGUN said:


> Does anyone have new ps pic's of our fc-20?


*
Bhai jan visit my thread I have Posted Hottest new Pics of J10/B , Do not forget to Thank me for that .. samjay kya*

*Link:* http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/44373-chinese-chengdu-j-10-emerges-4.html#post638802


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## Kompromat

emo_girl said:


> we will be on the defense, couple all PAF jets with AWACS the radar advantage of MKI can be nullified
> 
> Americans won't be selling us AIM-120D


Emo Russian Missiles have greater Range you know that.

Ok i know A jet would get the Target from AWACS 300kms away which is close to the range of MKI's own Radar.

In a BVR Combat the winner would be who would have timely detection and Longer range on BVR's.

Unka to Abba bhi dega AMRAAM


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## Kompromat

danger-zone said:


> wow bro its not 208 km...
> its 150+ range is mentioned on various web sites and from reliable sources its range is 180km maximum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> we can never get this thing and stop dreaming and say good by to uncle sam.its better for us that not to engage more weaponry deals with them.



You might have been reading Indian sources.

Look at this:

Engine	High-performance directed rocket motor
Wingspan	20.7 in (526 mm) (AIM-120A/B)
Operational
range	AIM-120A/B: 48 km (30 miles)[1]
AIM-120C-5: 105 km (65 miles)
*AIM-120D: 130+ miles* = 208km+

We need AIM-120D AMRAAM or MBDA Meteor .


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## Kompromat

emo_girl said:


> ​



I am just worried about the one who made this picture 

How this jet flew in the first place with all that load covering the Landing gear??

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## Tempest II

This is a post from SDF, the J-10 thread!



sydneylaide said:


> Yesterday, Chinese Central Television confirmed that J10 has equiped with Chinese AESA.


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## Supersonic26

emo_girl said:


> ​



hello. After viewing pic of this jet fighter am wondering does it move while flying? The load below this jet fighter is more then expected. No jet fighter in world can move easily when its full loaded. This jet fighter looks like bomber more.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Black blood said:


> I am just worried about the one who made this picture
> 
> How this jet flew in the first place with all that load covering the Landing gear??



if u had done a little positive research regarding this problem,u might got ur answer vry early.the above picture is absolutely perfect except of wingtip missile. 

this pic speaks for itself.the area of landing gare is clearly shown and j10 is carring same kind of fuel tanks.

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## Dazzler

The FC-20 has an ecliptic nose cone similar to the f-16. Surprisingly, a phased array radar antenna was displayed on NRIET website stating that this is a radar for newly developed Chinese fighter (J-10 most likely). Later, for some reason the image was removed. Now is this the FC-20 radar?? You decide. Notice the similarities in nose shape and radar antenna size.


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## Super Falcon

good news of radar and it can carry more payload than F 16

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## razgriz19

my very first attempt to make a fighter jet....

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7164/scan0002al.jpg

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## Dazzler

It is only looking good and good.


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## SBD-3

With AESA and WS-10A in pocket.....China will be really gearing up for Super-10.....can wait to see this steel thirsty beast


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## hataf

razgriz19 said:


> my very first attempt to make a fighter jet....
> 
> http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7164/scan0002al.jpg



And a good one congressss

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## TOPGUN

I would like to see a fc-20 photo shopped in our PAF schme  can anyone show us?


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## razgriz19

TOPGUN said:


> I would like to see a fc-20 photo shopped in our PAF schme  can anyone show us?



http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/7259/0d720427f3c05d96828941c.jpg

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## TOPGUN

razgriz19 said:


> http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/7259/0d720427f3c05d96828941c.jpg



Looks awsome wow thx


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## razgriz19

TOPGUN said:


> Looks awsome wow thx



no prob! glad u like it!


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## fatman17

*Chinese Chengdu J-10 Emerges*

Aviation Week

by Richard Fisher, Jr.

Published on January 14th, 2010

*Wrapped in secrecy for most of the decade following its 1998 test flight, Chengdu Aircraft Corp.&#8217;s J-10 multirole fighter is set to enter the global market. Following a development history that extends to the 1960s, and five years in the People&#8217;s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), the J-10 may emerge in the market soon after 2010, offering capabilities approaching Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16C Block 60, at half the price.*

About 150 J-10s may be in PLAAF units. This could exceed 300 based on Russian disclosures that China purchased 300-400 12.7-ton-thrust Salyut AL-31FN engines for the fighter. *Pakistan, which received Chinese nuclear weapons technology and generations of conventional weapons, will be the debut J-10 customer.*

*Reports from Pakistan say a deal has been reached to sell 36 J-10s to Islamabad for $1.4 billion, about $40 million per unit. F-16C Block 60 fighters with AN/APG-80 active phased array radar were sold to the United Arab Emirates for about $80 million each. It is not known whether the price of Pakistan&#8217;s J-10 includes spares, support and training.*

*Pakistan could buy 70-150 J-10s. The country has been an F-16 operator since 1982, and is taking delivery of 18 F-16C/D Block 52 fighters, half of an expected sale of 36. Pakistani sources tell DTI that the J-10 is not expected to become a coproduction project with Pakistan. There have also been reports of interest in the J-10 by Iran, Myanmar and the Philippines.*

China has not released data about the J-10. Recent Chinese media reports, however, offer the following: length, 16.43 meters (53.9 ft.); wingspan, 8.78 or 9.75 meters; maximum takeoff weight, 19,227 kg. (42,300 lb.); maximum weapons load, 7,000 kg.; combat radius, 1,100 km. (683 mi.); maximum speed, Mach 2; maneuverability, 9g.

Despite a history of Israeli and Russian design assistance, and its dependence on the Salyut engine, China touts the J-10 as a domestic product. November festivities marking the PLAAF&#8217;s 60th anniversary featured a J-10 aerobatic display and the showing of a prototype and full-scale, twin-seat mockup at the national aviation museum.

Besides price, what makes the J-10 attractive is competitive electronic and weapon systems. *The latest version, sometimes called the J-10B (or FC-20 when slated for Pakistan)* emerged in Internet photos in January 2009. It features a diverterless supersonic inlet similar in principle to that of the Joint Strike Fighter. The nose is redesigned, with an infrared search-and-track system in front of the windscreen and what appears to be a canted radar bulkhead consistent with a fixed electronically scanned array radar. If true, this would be a major advance for China&#8217;s radar technology, and may make the J-10 competitive with upgraded Western and Russian fourth-generation-plus fighters. The cockpit is dominated by three multifunction displays and a head-up display.

*The J-10 has 11 hardpoints, including five on the fuselage. Its principal counter-air weapon is the Luoyang PL 12 active radar-guided air-to-air missile (AAM) with 70-km. range. With a twin-AAM pylon on the inner wing mount, plus two on forward fuselage mounts, the J-10 could carry eight PL-12s. Short-range AAMs include the PL-8, a copy of the Israeli Python-3, and an improved version of this missile, the PL-9, both helmet-sighted. The J-10 may soon feature a more capable helmet-mounted display and a new fifth-generation AAM from Luoyang.*

*The fighter&#8217;s market success will depend on China&#8217;s ability to produce reliable advanced turbofan engines. Rival fighter maker Shenyang has been developing its WS-10A Taihang turbofan since the mid-1980s, which could offer 13.2 tons of thrust. Russian sources believe it is beset by developmental difficulties.*

*Chengdu may have a competing Huashan advanced turbofan engine program, which some Chinese sources note is based on its late-1990s acquisition of the engineering data and sales rights to the Tumansky R-79 turbofan developed for the defunct Yakovlev Yak-141 supersonic vertical/short-takeoff-and-landing fighter. Nevertheless, Russian sources say China remains interested in more powerful versions of the Salyut AL-31FN, which could come in 13.5- and, eventually, 15-ton-thrust versions.*

Chengdu remains ready to develop a carrier-based version of the J-10. During the PLAAF anniversary, a test pilot was reported noting that ground-test simulations prove the J-10 can operate from a carrier.


Related Links 
Chinese Chengdu J-10 Emerges (Aviation Week)

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## SBD-3

but WS-10A is already on J-11B i Think


----------



## Dazzler

New dual missile carrying rack developed for the j-10/FC-20

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## Dazzler

The Chinese are working at a new long range air-air missile with an expected range of 150-180 km


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## lionheartsalahudin

Hope this thing could pull the same maneuvers in real ,I think its possible if provided a proper thurst to weight ratio means a good engine well! This proves the design is perfect for dogfight if it could stand that sort of g-forces in real life.bravo Chinese!

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## SBD-3

I Agree but we should keep in mind that at current J-10 is using AL-31F....we ll have to see that how WS-10A impacts the aircraft's performance attributes


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

lionheartsalahudin said:


> Hope this thing could pull the same maneuvers in real ,I think its possible if provided a proper thurst to weight ratio means a good engine well! This proves the design is perfect for dogfight if it could stand that sort of g-forces in real life.bravo Chinese!
> 
> 
> YouTube - J-10 Fighter RC Jet CRAZY FLY




DAAAAAAAAAAMn that is not a propeller based crap engine its using a jet engine in a RC model  did not knew you could buy these ... is that legal .. that thing could literally kill someone if it hits someone on runaway


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## Sanchez

Good news for Pak bros: PLA started to retrofit AESA radars on J-10As since 2008. WS-10A has been installed on J-10As for flight tests since 2009. If the engine passes all tests PAF might be able to get J-10 in 2012-2013. 

The J-10B for PAF might be the one with DSI intake while PLAAF will get another variant without DSI in 2011.

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## nightrider_saulat

nabil_05 said:


> New dual missile carrying rack developed for the j-10/FC-20



*are the first two missiles from right SD-10​*


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## Dazzler

@Saulat

Yes, they are SD-10s mounted on a new dual rack.


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## Arsalan

now this development may also help the JF17!!

great news!

regards!


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## Arsalan

but PAF have absolutely no previous experience in this department and also lacks the infrastructure required to make engines for fighter jets. Pakistan may only join in latter once the chines are done with there home work!!!

but yes i do agree that PAF require a reliable engine for a stable future in shape of JF17 and FC20z!!

regards!
regards!


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## nightrider_saulat

nabil_05 said:


> @Saulat
> 
> Yes, they are SD-10s mounted on a new dual rack.



thanks for re knowledging me again dear!


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## Windjammer

See the J-10s superb Manoeuvrability at 1.10.

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## Sanchez

Pay attention to 0:52 and 1:12 moments.


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## Sapper

Sanchez said:


> Pay attention to 0:52 and 1:12 moments.



Wow , 180 degree turn in 5 seconds ... Very Very Impressive.

Regards,
Sapper

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## wangrong

ws-10


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## Adios Amigo

wangrong said:


> ws-10



wow, that looks like it has entered full scale production stage. good to see them on assembly lines great going china, keep it up










adios


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## Mani2020

will also good to see them in PAF


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## SBD-3

Windjammer said:


> See the J-10s superb Manoeuvrability at 1.10.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube - J-10 Manoeuvrability



we should remember that this is J-10A , J-10B is said to be more maneuverable than J-10A


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## Mani2020

also j-10b will have DSI which will reduce its weight and make it more manuoverable


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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> also j-10b will have DSI which will reduce its weight and make it more manuoverable


of course all the redesign and addition of such features are for the purpose of making an aircraft more agile


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## Mani2020

hasnain0099 said:


> of course all the redesign and addition of such features are for the purpose of making an aircraft more agile



lol i also said the samethng


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

here my concern is that can,t we get at least a squadron of j-10A before j-10B/fc-20 enters in service in 2014-15 because 5 years are too much and after reading cold start doctrine i am really worried about that factor because our f-16 are also going to start undergoing MLU this year with only 18 f-16 block 52 and some jf-17 it will be really atough job to stop enemy thrust .... so counter that there should some j-10a to cover the airs


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## Mani2020

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> here my concern is that can,t we get at least a squadron of j-10A before j-10B/fc-20 enters in service in 2014-15 because 5 years are too much and after reading cold start doctrine i am really worried about that factor because our f-16 are also going to start undergoing MLU this year with only 18 f-16 block 52 and some jf-17 it will be really atough job to stop enemy thrust .... so counter that there should some j-10a to cover the airs



PAF didnt like J-10A as it lacked different thngs and was not upto PAF's mark thats why Paf upgraded J-10A as FC-20 according to her requirments 

Btw that is also worrying for me just a handful of jf-17 that still is in earlier stages lacking IRF and othr thngs F-16 are also going for MLU and structural upgrade it will thn left Paf with ancient mirages and f-7


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## Dazzler

There is a high possibility that FC-20 will be in the PAF before 2014-15 as Chinese are negotiating the Russians regarding the Engine issue.


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## Mani2020

nabil_05 said:


> There is a high possibility that FC-20 will be in the PAF before 2014-15 as Chinese are negotiating the Russians regarding the Engine issue.



it will take time coz PAF is not inducting J-10 A rather its upgrade variant Fc-20 which has to undergo various flight tests so u cant expect them to enter service before 2015, as the example of jf-17 is infront of u even after flight testing in 2003 it had to undergo various prototype tests and it took 7 years to get to the poiunt where they are at present and still not any squardon of jf-17


----------



## Kharian_Beast

Mani2020 said:


> it will take time coz PAF is not inducting J-10 A rather its upgrade variant Fc-20 which has to undergo various flight tests so u cant expect them to enter service before 2015, as the example of jf-17 is infront of u even after flight testing in 2003 it had to undergo various prototype tests and it took 7 years to get to the poiunt where they are at present and still not any squardon of jf-17



JF-17 is delayed even by PAF's own schedule. Whatever internet theories we might come up with regarding PAF not liking J-10A and requesting for J-10B, the J-10A has the West scared, comparing it to an early block F-16 which is currently going even further upgrades to be comparable to Block 52. Pakistan jumped on the wrong horse.


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## Mani2020

Kharian_Beast said:


> JF-17 is delayed even by PAF's own schedule. Whatever internet theories we might come up with regarding PAF not liking J-10A and requesting for J-10B, the J-10A has the West scared, comparing it to an early block F-16 which is currently going even further upgrades to be comparable to Block 52. Pakistan jumped on the wrong horse.



so u mean to say PAF needed to get J-10A rather J-10B


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## Kharian_Beast

Mani2020 said:


> so u mean to say PAF needed to get J-10A rather J-10B



No, read carefully son. I mean to say PAF should have collaborated on J-10 project rather than JF-17. PLAAF will go forth with J-10B with or without Pakistan's consent. The J-10 is a bird entirely meant for PLAAF.


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## Mani2020

Kharian_Beast said:


> No, read carefully son. I mean to say PAF should have collaborated on J-10 project rather than JF-17. PLAAF will go forth with J-10B with or without Pakistan's consent. The J-10 is a bird entirely meant for PLAAF.



i had same thng in mind but now its useless to talk on what has happened coz its done n dusted ,currently we are discussing about the possible future avionics package for jf-17


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## Kharian_Beast

Mani2020 said:


> i had same thng in mind but now its useless to talk on what has happened coz its done n dusted ,currently we are discussing about the possible future avionics package for jf-17



Look which thread you are in beta. 

By the way, the only way to solve this mess will be to purchase J-10A as stop gap instead of paying 40 million a piece for JF-17 and then slowly integrate J-10B as it completes testing by 2020.


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## Mani2020

Kharian_Beast said:


> Look which thread you are in beta.
> 
> By the way, the only way to solve this mess will be to purchase J-10A as stop gap instead of paying 40 million a piece for JF-17 and then slowly integrate J-10B as it completes testing by 2020.



oops its my fault i was replying in different posts so mixed it up


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## Mani2020

Kharian_Beast said:


> Look which thread you are in beta.
> 
> By the way, the only way to solve this mess will be to purchase J-10A as stop gap instead of paying 40 million a piece for JF-17 and then slowly integrate J-10B as it completes testing by 2020.




i thnk J-10B should b inducted as soon as possible to counter the threat of Su-30 and Paf should by another platforn to counter the threat of MRCA


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

exactly .... but here is problem of money too... we went for jf-17 cos we were looking for cheap and capable aircraft thats what jf-17 is, but to compare with j-10, look at the price difference too ... jf-17 15 million dollar and j-10 40 million dollar .... but here again have different school of thoughts .. it would be better to have 60+ f-16 , 100+ , fc-20 , 30 or 40 mirage 2000 as option from UAE.. that have large fleet of 250 jf-17 . + f-7pg.... i mean less no and better quality


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## MZUBAIR

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> exactly .... but here is problem of money too... we went for jf-17 cos we were looking for cheap and capable aircraft thats what jf-17 is, but to compare with j-10, look at the price difference too ... jf-17 15 million dollar and j-10 40 million dollar .... but here again have different school of thoughts .. it would be better to have 60+ f-16 , 100+ , fc-20 , 30 or 40 mirage 2000 as option from UAE.. that have large fleet of 250 jf-17 . + f-7pg.... i mean less no and better quality



Yes, but so far 60 F-16 block 52, 100+ FC 20, 200 JF-17 (Block II) and Mirage 2000 from UAE is *unrealistic*...without these PAF looks to me weak........And if Pak get these then there is no worry but till then we have to worry as IAF upgrading their fleet......


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

india is upgrading its su-30mki with AESA radars by 2012. that is goina be a big challenge for PAF ... what i was trying to say rather than having 150+ jf-17 and other aircrafts .. why not have toal of 200 high tech aircraft ... eg.. 60 f-16 block 52, 40+ fc-20, 50-60 jf-17 but highly equipped and some mirage 2000.... i think that would be better .. than 400+ fighter ... go for quality instead of numbers... and india has to counter china too ... for us around 200 high tech fighters are more than enough....... 
regards


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## Dazzler

FC-20 will have an AESA, so will at least one batch of Thunders, but falcons and other will not have it at least for now. The problem is that we want everything on par with the Indians and this cannot occur in our case. For those who are in a hurry, history tells us that India has always had an edge on us in terms of quantity and quality (quality from the 90s). This is where the strategy comes in and PAF top brass is fully aware of Challenges lying ahead. AWACS, AAR and many other inductions in only 4 years is a hint just how rapidly they are modernizing their entire force. Still to come is FC-20 and Chinese AWACS which will only add to the punch. Just because we do not know what is happening behind the curtain, does not mean nothing is happening.

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## Kharian_Beast

> FC-20 will have an AESA, so will at least one batch of Thunders



We'll see.


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## Sanchez

J-10B with DSI intake and AESA is believed to be made to fit PAF's specifications. Together with the Falcons they could be the answers to MKI and MRCA. PAF might need 100-150 of these planes.

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## razgriz19

u guyz do realize that the battle is fought by missiles, not by avionics and radar! so pls just hope for a decent radar with a good BVR missile capability! 
and leave the rest on PAF pilots....


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## MZUBAIR

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> india is upgrading its su-30mki with AESA radars by 2012. that is goina be a big challenge for PAF ... what i was trying to say rather than having 150+ jf-17 and other aircrafts .. why not have toal of 200 high tech aircraft ... eg.. 60 f-16 block 52, 40+ fc-20, 50-60 jf-17 but highly equipped and some mirage 2000.... i think that would be better .. than 400+ fighter ... go for quality instead of numbers... and india has to counter china too ... for us around 200 high tech fighters are more than enough.......
> regards



*Planning is good thing*, but we are facing execution problem....
We were expecting JF-17 Block II production in 2010, 60+ F-16 Block 52....in 2009....but nothing is so far executed..........so we planned but practically we are not geting things easily. So reality is different......so far we have empty pockets and with that we cant make the dreams reality.

One more thing UAE mirage is offered or not....its not clear at the moment....and if in case they would offered .....how many chances that PAF would accept it......and how early we can get them....coz M2K is useless for us after 2015.


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## Stealth

@ All

Stop defending Military Airforce ... better to finish currption we will buy anything!

simple! dont blame money.. money is not a problem problem is BS leaders !

we can buy anything we have enough money to make or buy anything thats totally BS a country full of resources and we are always beegging and crying over we dont have money we dont have money bla bla! seem soo BS!

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## Mani2020

Stealth said:


> @ All
> 
> Stop defending Military Airforce ... better to finish currption we will buy anything!
> 
> simple! dont blame money.. money is not a problem problem is BS leaders !
> 
> we can buy anything we have enough money to make or buy anything thats totally BS a country full of resources and we are always beegging and crying over we dont have money we dont have money bla bla! seem soo BS!



i will agree with u to some extent few days back i heard a news that *PAKISTAN has coal reserves of nearly* *15 trillion* man its lot of worth equal to the total US reserves but our leaders are corrupt even corruption is a little word for them According to experts if work isnt done on these reserves and if they cant b utilize in next 60 years thn it will b a huge blunder on the part of govt coz after 60-70 years they will b useless


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## ice_man

Mani2020 said:


> i will agree with u to some extent few days back i heard a news that *PAKISTAN has coal reserves of nearly* *15 trillion* man its lot of worth equal to the total US reserves but our leaders are corrupt even corruption is a little word for them According to experts if work isnt done on these reserves and if they cant b utilize in next 60 years thn it will b a huge blunder on the part of govt coz after 60-70 years they will b useless


*
YES we have the 4th pargest coal reserve in the world!!! but we are just Di*ks!!!!! our leaders are like leeches sucking our nations blood dry!!!* 


http://www.gsp.gov.pk/resources/seminars2.htm

sorry timikhan back to the topic just had to say it


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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> i will agree with u to some extent few days back i heard a news that *PAKISTAN has coal reserves of nearly* *15 trillion* man its lot of worth equal to the total US reserves but our leaders are corrupt even corruption is a little word for them According to experts if work isnt done on these reserves and if they cant b utilize in next 60 years thn it will b a huge blunder on the part of govt coz after 60-70 years they will b useless



be open and honest when criticizing.....millitary itself is not free of curruption.....just look at the top brass. there are a lot of scandals coming every now and then in the millitary....the generals admirals and air marshals, all got their hands filled with riches didn't they what we can say is that "aaway ka aaaawa bigra hua hay"


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## sancho

Kharian_Beast said:


> JF-17 is delayed even by PAF's own schedule. Whatever internet theories we might come up with regarding PAF not liking J-10A and requesting for J-10B, the J-10A has the West scared, comparing it to an early block F-16 which is currently going even further upgrades to be comparable to Block 52. *Pakistan jumped on the wrong horse.*


I agree with you, PAF might get a cost-effective replacement for older J7 an Mirage fighters, but was that enough foresight?

If they had joined the J10 development (if it was proposed from China, donno about it), they might get a fighter with a bit more operational and unit costs, but also a fighter that is in the F16 class and as capable, maybe even better!

Some say JF cost only around $20 millions, but J10 around 40, but they forget, that this is the export price of J10! If PAF had joined the development, with the same ammount of investment and production in Pakistan...like they do with JF 17 development, J10 would be cheaper too.
It still would be costlier than JF to procure and to operate, but that means only that you can buy less. Instead of the first 2 batches of JF (50 + 100 if I'm not wrong), PAF might only be able to procure and operate 100 J10A. So instead of the 250(+) JF in total, maybe only 170(+) J10 right? 
Although in numbers they would be slighty less, wouldn't the benefits in quality be worth it?
Instead of a high/low mix of around 120 J10/F16 and 250(+) JF17, PAF could also have one level of 290(+) J10/F16 right? J10 in these high numbers for air superiority and 60 F16MLU/B52 with the advantages of the US weapon pack in the strike role, would be (imo) the cleary more capable and better combo for PAF.

I am not saying JF is a bad fighter, but there is a reason why many Pakistani members still hope for J11B, or even foreign fighters like Gripen NG, or even Rafale. Because as good as JF might be, it will remain only a low end fighter, while J10 could have been a cost-effective medium, or high end fighter!

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## Dazzler

PAF wanted to collaborate in the J-10 project initially but China was reluctant to share its most sensitive technology with anyone. This was quite understandable to PAF and we respect their decision. Another reason was the time period as even Chinese were not sure when will J-10 be inducted until the late 90s. However, things changed after the induction in 2004 as Chinese eventually agreed to sell it to us. Joint Collaboration was out of equation for J-10 also because it was an expensive project to begin with. Chinese promised to deliver the Thunder on time and with all specifications required by PAF.
The bottom line is that J-10 project was as ambitious for China as the JF-17 is for Pakistan.

Thanks

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

brother PAF also have to consider the factor of maintenance too.. jf-17 is suitable in every way cos it provides us with multi-role fighter at very low cast and also its matter of fact that those in PAF command know batter they would have evaluated both jf-17 and j-10 than they would have taken that step. so in my piont of view jf-17 is very capable and can be improved with time .... and still even at that time it is really capable fighter


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## Mani2020

i thnk we are getting diverted from the topic the topic is about fc-20 so we should discuss about fc-20 here rather than jf-17 ,for jf-17 there is seprate thread
hope u dun mind it


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## Dazzler

@Mani

Please read my post again as it was all about J-10 except the last line.


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## S.U.R.B.

J-10 having an SD-10 on board, what will the effective range of engagement against flankers?


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## SBD-3

enjoy some J-10's stunning and Crazy Maneuvers


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

hahaha... but it was looking to be a toy not fighter yet....... it was a toy.........


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## S.U.R.B.

I hope the original one can do the same maneuvers as well.


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## razgriz19

Stealth said:


> @ All
> 
> Stop defending Military Airforce ... better to finish currption we will buy anything!
> 
> simple! dont blame money.. money is not a problem problem is BS leaders !
> 
> we can buy anything we have enough money to make or buy anything thats totally BS a country full of resources and we are always beegging and crying over we dont have money we dont have money bla bla! seem soo BS!



first of all, its our people who brought these theives into power!
so dont blame those theives they r just doing their job!(which is making $$$)


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## jalip

[&#202;&#211;&#198;&#181;]&#188;&#223;&#202;&#174;&#213;&#189;&#187;&#250;&#191;&#231;&#214;&#231;&#210;&#185;&#209;&#181;&#193;&#183; &#184;&#250;&#215;&#217;&#200;&#171;&#188;&#205;&#194;&#188;_&#208;&#194;&#206;&#197;&#204;&#168;

new video J 10 looks amazing


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## FireFighter

hasnain0099 said:


> enjoy some J-10's stunning and Crazy Maneuvers



I was just doing many of those maneuvers in Battlefield 2 with a J10, and that is one hell of maneuverable plane even in the game its portrayed as such, i shot down a total of 9 f-18s and F-35s in one go lol


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## SBD-3

FireFighter said:


> I was just doing many of those maneuvers in Battlefield 2 with a J10, and that is one hell of maneuverable plane even in the game its portrayed as such, i shot down a total of 9 f-18s and F-35s in one go lol



I ve heard a lot about it.....but yet i not not able to come out of Novalogic series and Lock on.......whats the sys req for BF2?


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## MZUBAIR

I am waiting for 150 J-10B deal...
36 arent enough.........


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## AVIAN

MZUBAIR said:


> I am waiting for 150 J-10B deal...
> 36 arent enough.........



May be first 36 ordered are first trenche and PAF likely to order more once all this J-10s landed in Pakistan.


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## junaid_mt



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## Mani2020

junaid_mt said:


>



good work man thx for sharing


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## SBD-3

J-10 getting refueled over Islamabad.....we have Kamra, Sargodha and Chaklala there.........It would make sense if its some where else


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## FireFighter

hasnain0099 said:


> I ve heard a lot about it.....but yet i not not able to come out of Novalogic series and Lock on.......whats the sys req for BF2?



2.6Ghz Pentium 4 CPUs (dual Core or Quad Core recommended)
1 GB RAM (2 GB recommended)
5 GB of hard disks memory
128MB graphics card. map with pixel Shader 3.0
DirectX 9.0c or better

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## SBD-3

FireFighter said:


> 2.6Ghz Pentium 4 CPUs (dual Core or Quad Core recommended)
> 1 GB RAM (2 GB recommended)
> 5 GB of hard disks memory
> 128MB graphics card. map with pixel Shader 3.0
> DirectX 9.0c or better



I ve got 
Core 2 Duo @ 1.66
rest I am at min req......I think my NB also needs a MLU


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## MZUBAIR

*ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has deferred the purchase of state of the art fighter J-10 planes from China till test flights.*

Defence sources told Online Monday Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was taking interest in acquisition of state of the art J-10 fighter planes from China. Air Chief Marshall, Rao Qamar Suleman however during his briefing to the members of senate committee on defence told no formal decision had been taken so far to purchase these planes. &#65533;We are reviewing the matter. Until these planes are inducted in Chinese air fleet and they meet their targets and objectives during test flights then PAF will decide to purchase them that upto what extent these planes can prove productive for PAF &#65533;, he remarked. 

Sources told PAF was facing lack of funds problem in the wake of tough economic situation. Therefore, PAF was completing its ongoing projects and these would be completed in time.However a clear decision with reference to J-10 planes would be made after their induction in Chinese air fleet and their performance in test flights.

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## SBD-3

*China's J-10 fighter leads Taiwan air threat, says USA *
By Graham Warwick

Spearheaded by new indigenously developed or improved fighters and bombers, such as the Chengdu J-10, China is building up its capability to use force against Taiwan while making it harder for the USA to come to the defence of the island nation.

That is a conclusion of the US Department of Defense's latest analysis of Chinese military power, submitted to Congress at the beginning of March. The report highlights the increasing capability of Beijing's air and air defence forces 

A growing percentage of the 490 combat aircraft based within unrefueled range of Taiwan are newer, more advanced types, claims the Pentagon.


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## MZUBAIR

I think PAF should work on the following projs.

70	F-16	B-52 ( 4th gene)
80	Mirage	ROSE (eq to 4th gene)
55	F-7PG	(eq to 4th gene)
50	JF-B1	( 4th gene)
150	JF-B2	( 4th gene)
70	Mirage	2K9 (If possible From UAE/France) ( 4th gene)
Total 475 -70 (if PAF dont get from UAE) = 407

Considering India _(on realistic basis...)_ would only be having following jets after couple of years *(Indians dont Trol)*


200	MKI
100	Mig 29
50	Mirage 2K9
Total 350
*Other Indian jets are unfit for war.*

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## nightrider_saulat

MZUBAIR said:


> I think PAF should work on the following projs.
> 
> 70	F-16	B-52 ( 4th gene)
> 80	Mirage	ROSE (eq to 4th gene)
> 55	F-7PG	(eq to 4th gene)
> 50	JF-B1	( 4th gene)
> 150	JF-B2	( 4th gene)
> 70	Mirage	2K9 (If possible From UAE/France) ( 4th gene)
> Total 475 -70 (if PAF dont get from UAE) = 407
> 
> Considering India _(on realistic basis...)_ would only be having following jets after couple of years *(Indians dont Trol)*
> 
> 
> 200	MKI
> 100	Mig 29
> 50	Mirage 2K9
> Total 350
> *Other Indian jets are unfit for war.*


*i think the next five years are going to be very crucial for the IAF
i doubt that mig-21,mig-27and jaguar will make their way ahead till 2015*

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## sancho

MZUBAIR said:


> I think PAF should work on the following projs.
> 
> 70	F-16	B-52 ( 4th gene)
> 80	Mirage	ROSE (eq to 4th gene)
> 55	F-7PG	(eq to 4th gene)
> 50	JF-B1	( 4th gene)
> 150	JF-B2	( 4th gene)
> 70	Mirage	2K9 (If possible From UAE/France) ( 4th gene)
> Total 475 -70 (if PAF dont get from UAE) = 407
> 
> Considering India _(on realistic basis...)_ would only be having following jets after couple of years *(Indians dont Trol)*
> 
> 
> 200	MKI
> 100	Mig 29
> 50	Mirage 2K9
> Total 350
> Other Indian jets are unfit for war.


Shouldn't you make a realistic comparison then, instead of leaving half of IAF out?


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## Myth_buster_1

sancho said:


> Shouldn't you make a realistic comparison then, instead of leaving half of IAF out?



He even left half of PAF out.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

MZUBAIR said:


> *ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has deferred the purchase of state of the art fighter J-10 planes from China till test flights.*
> 
> Defence sources told Online Monday Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was taking interest in acquisition of state of the art J-10 fighter planes from China. Air Chief Marshall, Rao Qamar Suleman however during his briefing to the members of senate committee on defence told no formal decision had been taken so far to purchase these planes. &#65533;We are reviewing the matter. Until these planes are inducted in Chinese air fleet and they meet their targets and objectives during test flights then PAF will decide to purchase them that upto what extent these planes can prove productive for PAF &#65533;, he remarked.
> 
> Sources told PAF was facing lack of funds problem in the wake of tough economic situation. Therefore, PAF was completing its ongoing projects and these would be completed in time.However a clear decision with reference to J-10 planes would be made after their induction in Chinese air fleet and their performance in test flights.



36 jets were ordered in 2006 and now this news that they are thinking of buying jets plus Defence ministers statement about talks to purchase jets from China with TOT,rumours of 150 J10Bs....all lead to what i had been talking about:
1)J10B not J10 as the statement (*Pakistan has deferred the purchase of state of the art fighter J-10 planes from China till test flights*)
2)More jets maybe 150 like the def ministers statement and now chief of air staffs statement.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

yep i also have same kind of news . according to my little information its because of lack of funds and also some matter of changes in aircraft too ..PAF is looking to induct western avionics for FC-20 while Chinese are not willing and also big deal is engine problem. at this time Russia under Indian pressure is reluctant to supply AL-31 engine for PAF. S now at this time every thing is hanging on Indians MRCA deal if they don,t go with mig-35 than surely RUSSIA will consider PAF request and than we can get even AL-41 with super cruse .... thats why PAF is delaying till yet


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## Mani2020

not again i dun want to hear that same old story that PAF didnt had enough funds to go for high tech fighters ...dun wana see that ancient mirage kinda stuff again


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

but dear brother thats the fact .... say your leaders to take austerity measure , focus on pakistan rather than their self centered politics then u can improve economy , if this happens and u gets money only than we can look for high tech fighters cos no money no honey ....... so 1st make some money then all things are available


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

dear j-10 is relatively cheap but still 40 million dollars each is big amount for us and also fact 40 million dollar is for j-10A ... keep in mind j-10b will more costly .. so quite clear that if u want high tech then u have to pay huge money thats what India is doing .. 160 billion dollar for next 10 years .... where we are standing at that moment for us even 20-30 billion for next 10 years is looking looking impossible from here.. can we make even a deal of worth 12 billion for only single class jet .. hahaha.. no rather this amount is more than enough for our whole air force ..


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## Mani2020

MZUBAIR said:


> I think PAF should work on the following projs.
> 
> 70	F-16	B-52 ( 4th gene)
> 80	Mirage	ROSE (eq to 4th gene)
> 55	F-7PG	(eq to 4th gene)
> 50	JF-B1	( 4th gene)
> 150	JF-B2	( 4th gene)
> 70	Mirage	2K9 (If possible From UAE/France) ( 4th gene)
> Total 475 -70 (if PAF dont get from UAE) = 407


*
70 F-16 blck 52*

u mean again open a way for US sanctions ,and remain begging to US wat we did in all our history?No availability of spare parts and upgrade in case of any sanction like we had in case of our 80's f-16?

*80 Mirage ROSE (eq to 4th gen)*

plz dun say me that ur serious, lol from where these ancient mirages look 4th generation? they had enough of service their airframe will not long last enough,look the date of their service entry and most of them are second hand purchased from other countries

*50	JF-B1	( 4th gene)
150	JF-B2	( 4th gene)*

even the first squardon is not ready and u r dreaming about 200 jf-17 in service they will not b4 2017 plus u have to still finalize the contract for avionics that will b used on jf-17 block2,and jf-17 no doubt is a good fighter but its not matured yet n i wonder after three years PAF will again say we dun have funds


We agree that we are here to talk about PAF but not on such biased basis and bogus claims,
Reality it is very harsh and v have to digest it that IAF will have fleet of 250 Su-30 Mki till 2012 plus the MRCA deal which will b stuck soon plus M2k ,mig-29 all in current inventory

Since the last 2 decades we are hearing that PAF wants to buy aircrafts but sanctions did not allow them blah blah but when tym came again no funds same old story,where is the budget allocation of last 2 decades?

Sorry to say but with this
we are going no where ,with this technology i cant expect anythng from PAF,
We always talk about good pilots ,pilot skills i agree we have best the best pilots but atleast give them somethng to go with atleast give them the technology upto their standards
These Falcons donot deserve junk lyk ancient mirages n stuff

only ALLAH can save us HE is the ALMIGHTY

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

we can spent money to buy bullet proof cars to protect our politicians who are unfortunately no pakistani ... just read the recent news all NRO beneficiaries are transferring their money out of Pakistan ... and most of them all their reserves in foreign accounts and every Pakistani called them their leader .. so let them do there job , let them loot pakistan and then go and rest where their property lies .. why we are weeping for lack of money .. we have no right to say that... sorry for being off the topic but this the fact ... ans of common question why we are reluctant to buy and others reluctant to sell us high tech aircraft .. simple example is that we are buying jf-17 with chinese debet... cheers

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

dear now sanctions are off u can buy any fighter jet ... simply pay money and buy.... and for GOD sake mirage rose . and f7-pg all are 2nd gen .. and specially our mirages 30-40 years old too much yar don,t talk of them ... for me better option is to fully devote our selves with jf-17 and make it as much as we can... cos we its tech and we can modify it according to our needs.. we will be not so much dependent on any one any more...


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## Tiger Awan

Zardari and Nawaz Sharif can pay for *250 J-10b* for sure.

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## imranumer

slam o alikum borthers 
i am ver quries about j10b can any one expalin its radar ranga and its radar capibility thanks


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## imranumer

Mani2020 said:


> *
> 70 F-16 blck 52*
> 
> u mean again open a way for US sanctions ,and remain begging to US wat we did in all our history?No availability of spare parts and upgrade in case of any sanction like we had in case of our 80's f-16?
> 
> *80 Mirage ROSE (eq to 4th gen)*
> 
> plz dun say me that ur serious, lol from where these ancient mirages look 4th generation? they had enough of service their airframe will not long last enough,look the date of their service entry and most of them are second hand purchased from other countries
> 
> *50	JF-B1	( 4th gene)
> 150	JF-B2	( 4th gene)*
> 
> even the first squardon is not ready and u r dreaming about 200 jf-17 in service they will not b4 2017 plus u have to still finalize the contract for avionics that will b used on jf-17 block2,and jf-17 no doubt is a good fighter but its not matured yet n i wonder after three years PAF will again say we dun have funds
> 
> 
> We agree that we are here to talk about PAF but not on such biased basis and bogus claims,
> Reality it is very harsh and v have to digest it that IAF will have fleet of 250 Su-30 Mki till 2012 plus the MRCA deal which will b stuck soon plus M2k ,mig-29 all in current inventory
> 
> Since the last 2 decades we are hearing that PAF wants to buy aircrafts but sanctions did not allow them blah blah but when tym came again no funds same old story,where is the budget allocation of last 2 decades?
> 
> Sorry to say but with this
> we are going no where ,with this technology i cant expect anythng from PAF,
> We always talk about good pilots ,pilot skills i agree we have best the best pilots but atleast give them somethng to go with atleast give them the technology upto their standards
> These Falcons donot deserve junk lyk ancient mirages n stuff
> 
> only ALLAH can save us HE is the ALMIGHTY






slam o alikum brov
what u said its 100 percent true at the moement we far behind iaf we should think about that


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

imranumer said:


> slam o alikum borthers
> i am ver quries about j10b can any one expalin its radar ranga and its radar capibility thanks


dear there are no confirm reports about its radar yet ..... but sure it will be AESA


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Tiger Awan said:


> Zardari and Nawaz Sharif can pay for *250 J-10b* for sure.



I ALSO AGREE WITH U ... FEW DOZEN NAMES OWN MORE THAN WHOLE PAKISTAN ...


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## SBD-3

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> yep i also have same kind of news . *according to my little information its because of lack of funds and also some matter of changes in aircraft too* ..PAF is looking to induct western avionics for FC-20 while Chinese are not willing and also big deal is engine problem. at this time Russia under Indian pressure is reluctant to supply AL-31 engine for PAF. S now at this time every thing is hanging on Indians MRCA deal if they don,t go with mig-35 than surely RUSSIA will consider PAF request and than we can get even *AL-41 with super cruse* .... thats why PAF is delaying till yet



like they say that the devil is in the details 


> *Sources told PAF was facing lack of funds problem in the wake of tough economic situation*. Therefore, PAF was completing its ongoing projects and these would be completed in time.However a clear decision with reference to J-10 planes would be made after their induction in Chinese air fleet and their performance in test flights.


you should know that AL-41 would likely e used in Pak-fa.....so most likely not to be available for FC-20.....it would be rather logical to see WS-10A (which has already begun its trials on J-10 after J-11)


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## sancho

Growler said:


> He even left half of PAF out.


Like? As fas as I see it, he already replaced all A5, most Mirage and F7 with UAE M2K and JF 17 right? The only fighter I miss on PAFs side are the 36 x J10 (although these latest news seems to make them unlikely anyway), the rest of the numbers could be correct unless the clasification of generations maybe.
On IAF side (in a realistic comparison), you have to add around 125 Mig 21 Bisons, 40 Mig 27 and around 100 Jags of the older fighters. All these are, or will be upgraded to remain in service till around 2020, not to mention the LCA and MMRCA that should arrive in the same time frame like those 200 JF 17 he mentioned right (I guess he means till the end of the decade)?


hasnain0099 said:


> like they say that the devil is in the details


But what about J10A, shouldn't they be cheaper than the B with AESA and stuff, or are there no funds for J10 at all at the moment? Also wouldn't China be ready to give a loan?


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## SBD-3

sancho said:


> But what about J10A, shouldn't they be cheaper than the B with AESA and stuff, or are there no funds for J10 at all at the moment? Also wouldn't China be ready to give a loan?



J-10A are optimized for A2A like Typhoon T-1. PAF wants a multirole model.

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## ice_man

brothers we ALL hate our POLITICIANS! however respecting this forum as OUR OWN! we need to discuss J10 and ONLY J10 on this thread...for letting out our feelings for our corrupt & inept leaders national political issues thread exists! let's uphold the high standards of this forum!


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## SBD-3

ice_man said:


> brothers we ALL hate our POLITICIANS! however respecting this forum as OUR OWN! we need to discuss J10 and ONLY J10 on this thread...for letting out our feelings for our corrupt & inept leaders national political issues thread exists! let's uphold the high standards of this forum!



did someone talk about it????????????


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## TaimiKhan

MZUBAIR said:


> *ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has deferred the purchase of state of the art fighter J-10 planes from China till test flights.*
> 
> Defence sources told Online Monday Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was taking interest in acquisition of state of the art J-10 fighter planes from China. Air Chief Marshall, Rao Qamar Suleman however during his briefing to the members of senate committee on defence told no formal decision had been taken so far to purchase these planes. &#65533;We are reviewing the matter. Until these planes are inducted in Chinese air fleet and they meet their targets and objectives during test flights then PAF will decide to purchase them that upto what extent these planes can prove productive for PAF &#65533;, he remarked.
> 
> Sources told PAF was facing lack of funds problem in the wake of tough economic situation. Therefore, PAF was completing its ongoing projects and these would be completed in time.However a clear decision with reference to J-10 planes would be made after their induction in Chinese air fleet and their performance in test flights.



I have tried to check other sources of the news, but no reliable news, plus there is no news mentioning of the CAS giving a briefing to the committee in recent days by any major newspaper or online news portals. 

My guess, its a fictional story. 

The report says: "We are reviewing the matter. Until these planes are inducted in Chinese air fleet and they meet their targets and objectives during test flights then PAF will decide to purchase them that upto what extent these planes can prove productive for PAF" 

These planes have already been inducted into the PLAAF and the number has already crossed the 200+ figure and more and more regiments are being raised of this plane, and their induction at such a fast pace means they have met rather proved more then expected the parameters set by PLAAF. And we have already flew this aurcraft to test it and we have no problem in test flying this aircraft if we want, just like the JF-17 which was being flown by Pakistani and Chinese test pilots simultaneously during the testing phase. 

And the CAS recently on the 60th Anniversary of PLAAF did see the aircraft himself, rather it was shown to the whole world airforce officials. 

This story is hoax, as the writer doesn't knows the ABC of the aircraft and air forces and about this specific aircraft.

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## SBD-3

taimikhan said:


> I have tried to check other sources of the news, but no reliable news, plus there is no news mentioning of the CAS giving a briefing to the committee in recent days by any major newspaper or online news portals.
> 
> My guess, its a fictional story.
> 
> The report says: "We are reviewing the matter. Until these planes are inducted in Chinese air fleet and they meet their targets and objectives during test flights then PAF will decide to purchase them that upto what extent these planes can prove productive for PAF"
> 
> These planes have already been inducted into the PLAAF and the number has already crossed the 200+ figure and more and more regiments are being raised of this plane, and their induction at such a fast pace means they have met rather proved more then expected the parameters set by PLAAF. And we have already flew this aurcraft to test it and we have no problem in test flying this aircraft if we want, just like the JF-17 which was being flown by Pakistani and Chinese test pilots simultaneously during the testing phase.
> 
> And the CAS recently on the 60th Anniversary of PLAAF did see the aircraft himself, rather it was shown to the whole world airforce officials.
> 
> This story is hoax, as the writer doesn't knows the ABC of the aircraft and air forces and about this specific aircraft.



the article points to J-10B which is still in flight testing....J-10As of PLAAF will be taking a MLU to J-10B standard when J-10B will enter the service.....which is still some distance as WS-10A has just made its way to J-10...as per my information...

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## Arsalan

as far as my understanding of this matter is concerned it is all about the rumor that surfaced last year. it was something about PAF opting for 36 J10z in order to cut short the technological gap with IAF. it was said that PAF will initially get these 36 plane in basic J10A configration whereas the actuall deal will come into play from 2013 when the FC20 is finally available. if you can go back a few pages you can find discussion regarding this new/rumor. now this news claims that PAF have opted out of J10 deal and this gives me a feeling that this is just negating the intial rumor. PAF will not go for the J10A in any case but yes the FC20 programme stay intact.
what supports my view is the previous discussion about the purchase of 36 J10A's and also the statement by Air Cheif marshal claiming that PAF will decide once the plan is done with testing and evaluation flights!!the J10A are now operational , even the J10B have moved towards maturity it is the FC20 that still need to tested and evaluated...

however this is just my analysis based on the sttudy of the news and previous discussion regarding the rumor of PAF going for 36 J10Az!!

regards!

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## Mani2020

imranumer said:


> slam o alikum borthers
> i am ver quries about j10b can any one expalin its radar ranga and its radar capibility thanks



we are not even sure about the induction of j-10 at ths moment so radar is irrelevant issue i thnk untill and unless we become sure that the above news is not more than a rumor


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## Mani2020

taimikhan said:


> I have tried to check other sources of the news, but no reliable news, plus there is no news mentioning of the CAS giving a briefing to the committee in recent days by any major newspaper or online news portals.
> 
> My guess, its a fictional story.
> 
> The report says: "We are reviewing the matter. Until these planes are inducted in Chinese air fleet and they meet their targets and objectives during test flights then PAF will decide to purchase them that upto what extent these planes can prove productive for PAF"
> 
> These planes have already been inducted into the PLAAF and the number has already crossed the 200+ figure and more and more regiments are being raised of this plane, and their induction at such a fast pace means they have met rather proved more then expected the parameters set by PLAAF. And we have already flew this aurcraft to test it and we have no problem in test flying this aircraft if we want, just like the JF-17 which was being flown by Pakistani and Chinese test pilots simultaneously during the testing phase.
> 
> And the CAS recently on the 60th Anniversary of PLAAF did see the aircraft himself, rather it was shown to the whole world airforce officials.
> 
> This story is hoax, as the writer doesn't knows the ABC of the aircraft and air forces and about this specific aircraft.



I really wish that this story would be nuthng more than a rumor, but we cant say anythng untill and unless some PAF source claims the reality


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## shanixee

dont worry guys we hve got many sons of this nation to sacrafise...though worth not more then a penny....so we can sacrafise them and then show tears on the stage shows....creating a drama....sympothising their parents...and then sleep tight....we will never ask our rulers why the hell they died...why were they not provided with the latest weapons...


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## TaimiKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> the article points to J-10B which is still in flight testing....J-10As of PLAAF will be taking a MLU to J-10B standard when J-10B will enter the service.....which is still some distance as WS-10A has just made its way to J-10...as per my information...





arsalanaslam123 said:


> as far as my understanding of this matter is concerned it is all about the rumor that surfaced last year. it was something about PAF opting for 36 J10z in order to cut short the technological gap with IAF. it was said that PAF will initially get these 36 plane in basic J10A configration whereas the actuall deal will come into play from 2013 when the FC20 is finally available. if you can go back a few pages you can find discussion regarding this new/rumor. now this news claims that PAF have opted out of J10 deal and this gives me a feeling that this is just negating the intial rumor. PAF will not go for the J10A in any case but yes the FC20 programme stay intact.
> what supports my view is the previous discussion about the purchase of 36 J10A's and also the statement by Air Cheif marshal claiming that PAF will decide once the plan is done with testing and evaluation flights!!the J10A are now operational , even the J10B have moved towards maturity it is the FC20 that still need to tested and evaluated...
> 
> however this is just my analysis based on the sttudy of the news and previous discussion regarding the rumor of PAF going for 36 J10Az!!
> 
> regards!



The previous CAS Tanvir Sb, from day one had been giving the specifications of FC-20, which clearly were different from the J-10A specifications, thus it was clear from day one that we are not going for J-10A variants. And as far as money is concerned, by 2011-12 all the major platforms being acquired would be inducted and would have been paid for, as except Chinese no one gives us products on loan, all charge up the money from start, thus F-16 Blk 52s and the supporting weapons most probably already paid for, AEW&Cs paid for to sweden, the refuellers paid for by then, Chinese AEW&C isn't that costly as per the public price tag, plus hopefully it will be paid for by then, even by then the JF-17s loan for first 42s to a good amount would be paid for, and China has no issue in giving us FC-20s on sellers credit. 

So i say, bogus made up story. 

As if you guys Google it, no one else first reported it, no major newspaper and there is no news of any recent briefing by the CAS to the standing committee, the last time the committee had come to PAC and were briefed, that was about one year back.

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## truepakistani17

taimikhan said:


> This previous CAS Tanvir Sb, from day one had been giving the specifications of FC-20, which clearly were different from the J-10A specifications, thus it was clear from day one that we are not going for J-10A variants. And as far as money is concerned, by 2011-12 all the major platforms being acquired would be inducted and would have been paid for, as except Chinese no one gives us products on loan, all charge up the money from start, thus F-16 Blk 52s and the supporting weapons most probably already paid for, AEW&Cs paid for to sweden, the refuellers paid for by then, Chinese AEW&C isn't that costly as per the public price tag, plus hopefully it will be paid for by then, even by then the JF-17s loan for first 42s to a good amount would be paid for, and China has no issue in giving us FC-20s on sellers credit.
> 
> So i say, bogus made up story.
> 
> As if you guys Google it, no one else first reported it, no major newspaper and there is no news of any recent briefing by the CAS to the standing committee, the last time the committee had come to PAC and were briefed, that was about one year back.



this is what sir Arsalan and sir Hasnain have also said. now your your similar comments further suport this argument.
if you remeber there was a discussion some four months ago about PAF going for J10Az. it was taken as a rumor even at that time by many members. now this news is also turning out to be of same kind. either it is just a baseless news like the previous one or it may be a rumor to nullify the previous bogus news item anout deal for J10A. 
all in all there seems nothing to be worried about. as you said PAF want to have FC20 and are all set to go for them!!!

thankyou.


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> as far as my understanding of this matter is concerned it is all about the rumor that surfaced last year. it was something about PAF opting for 36 J10z in order to cut short the technological gap with IAF. it was said that PAF will initially get these 36 plane in basic J10A configration whereas the actuall deal will come into play from 2013 when the FC20 is finally available. if you can go back a few pages you can find discussion regarding this new/rumor. now this news claims that PAF have opted out of J10 deal and this gives me a feeling that this is just negating the intial rumor. PAF will not go for the J10A in any case but yes the FC20 programme stay intact.
> what supports my view is the previous discussion about the purchase of 36 J10A's and also the statement by Air Cheif marshal claiming that PAF will decide once the plan is done with testing and evaluation flights!!the J10A are now operational , e*ven the J10B have moved towards maturity* it is the FC20 that still need to tested and evaluated...
> 
> however this is just my analysis based on the sttudy of the news and previous discussion regarding the rumor of PAF going for 36 J10Az!!
> 
> regards!


how can you mature a plane without inducting it in regular service?


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> as far as my understanding of this matter is concerned it is all about the rumor that surfaced last year. it was something about PAF opting for 36 J10z in order to cut short the technological gap with IAF. it was said that PAF will initially get these 36 plane in basic J10A configration whereas the actuall deal will come into play from 2013 when the FC20 is finally available. if you can go back a few pages you can find discussion regarding this new/rumor. now this news claims that PAF have opted out of J10 deal and this gives me a feeling that this is just negating the intial rumor. PAF will not go for the J10A in any case but yes the FC20 programme stay intact.
> what supports my view is the previous discussion about the purchase of 36 J10A's and also the statement by Air Cheif marshal claiming that PAF will decide once the plan is done with testing and evaluation flights!!the J10A are now operational , even the J10B have moved towards maturity it is the FC20 that still need to tested and evaluated...
> 
> however this is just my analysis based on the sttudy of the news and previous discussion regarding the rumor of PAF going for 36 J10Az!!
> 
> regards!



yes your points carry weight too.....I still dont understand the logic of FC-20....I mean We call F-16s as F-16s......Yes exceptions are also there like F-20 tigershark, J-11 and F-2......but what makes our CAS use FC-20.........it could be a new plane.......but I don't think so PAF would venture any such thing right now as thunder will be the focus for the time being...anyways...Deal may be deferred because of J-10B I think cuz i was going through a blog where it was mentioned that PAF is interested in acquiring J-10B not J-10A so as PLAAF would be the 1st priority...so delay is quite understandable
@truepakistani 
I'm just a man in street no "sir" kind of a thing


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## MastanKhan

truepakistani17 said:


> this is what sir Arsalan and sir Hasnain have also said. now your your similar comments further suport this argument.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Please don't use the term 'SIR' in front of screen name---it sounds very tacky---thanks.

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## SBD-3

*Future of J-10*
I wonder if PAF is looking for this........


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## jalip

If tension with india increases and Pakistan face 26/11 like situation again paf will go for J10A and i hope they will be delivered on short notice
on the other hand PAF wants FC 20 and will get them after Chinese tests and inductions

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## SBD-3

join J-10 on FB


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## aks

kar lia join

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## Arsalan

jalip said:


> If tension with india increases and Pakistan face 26/11 like situation again paf will go for J10A and i hope they will be delivered on short notice
> on the other hand PAF wants FC 20 and will get them after Chinese tests and inductions



PAF want the FC20 to be one single answer to whatever IAF can throw at them... for this reason PAF is keen to wait for a more stronger chines engine, better avionics and perhaps an AESA radar to fit in fc20!!
well to say the truth if all these demands are met it is worth waiting for it!!

regards!


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## aks

arsalanaslam123 said:


> PAF want the FC20 to be one single answer to whatever IAF can throw at them... for this reason PAF is keen to wait for a more stronger chines engine, better avionics and perhaps an AESA radar to fit in fc20!!
> well to say the truth if all these demands are met it is worth waiting for it!!
> 
> regards!



yar i have read on fb page about j10b's they are comparing it with euro fighter n rafales n claiming it to b better then lastest f16s ...  and even they are saying j10b is better than chinese flankers


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## Mani2020

aks said:


> yar i have read on fb page about j10b's they are comparing it with euro fighter n rafales n claiming it to b better then lastest f16s ...  and even they are saying j10b is better than chinese flankers



abay tunay tau mujhe f-35 bhi kaha tha msg kar k yeh f-35 ab kahan gaya teri post ma


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## aks

Mani2020 said:


> abay tunay tau mujhe f-35 bhi kaha tha msg kar k yeh f-35 ab kahan gaya teri post ma



f35 ka comparison khudi parh lay tu jo us nai kiya tha larkay nai  fb page par


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## Mani2020

aks said:


> f35 ka comparison khudi parh lay tu jo us nai kiya tha larkay nai  fb page par



lol link tau dai kabse se mang raha ho


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> PAF want the FC20 to be one single answer to whatever IAF can throw at them... for this reason PAF is keen to wait for a more stronger chines engine, better avionics and perhaps an AESA radar to fit in fc20!!
> well to say the truth if all these demands are met it is worth waiting for it!!
> 
> regards!



it can not be......A multirole fighter has to make a sacrifice of A2A if it wants to become a good A2G fighter look at rafale and Typhoon....rafale is more potent A2G fighter while Typhoon is more capable in A2A.....so its always a trade off.....lets say IAF houses MKI as Airsuperiority and MMRCA as multirole....I think FC-20 being a multirole will be at par with MMRCA but below MKI.......I'm not saying FC-20 can't bring MKI down.....the point is that you can not design a fighter that can take out any fighet....(Raptor is an exception)


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## Sanchez

hasnain0099 said:


> it can not be......A multirole fighter has to make a sacrifice of A2A if it wants to become a good A2G fighter look at rafale and Typhoon....rafale is more potent A2G fighter while Typhoon is more capable in A2A.....so its always a trade off.....lets say IAF houses MKI as Airsuperiority and MMRCA as multirole....I think FC-20 being a multirole will be at par with MMRCA but below MKI.......I'm not saying FC-20 can't bring MKI down.....the point is that you can not design a fighter that can take out any fighet....(Raptor is an exception)



MKI is a good plane but is also severely underpowered. It looks great in performing those aerobatics at low speed. Has anyone ever seen nice moves when MKI has a payload on or at a higher and meaningful speed? I guess no.

If India inducts Typhoon or F/A-18 as MMRCA they should bring lots more headache to PAF than MKI.


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## Tempest II

A.Man on SDF posted:



> China National Defence University Professor, Rear Admiral Zhang rating F/A-16 C/D, M-2000 V, J-10 fighters:
> 
> YouTube - ?????20100207 -- ?????? "??"???? 02



And the screenshot below are his conclussions:


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## DMLA

> MKI is a good plane but is also severely underpowered. It looks great in performing those aerobatics at low speed. Has anyone ever seen nice moves when MKI has a payload on or at a higher and meaningful speed? I guess no.
> 
> If India inducts Typhoon or F/A-18 as MMRCA they should bring lots more headache to PAF than MKI.



really!!!

AFAIK, the Al-31FP has 16,754 lbf dry thrust & 27,600 lbf afterburner thrust (from saturn website). 
Sukhoi website claims mki's to have a maximum take off weight of 76,000 lbf and a nominal take off weight of 54,600 lbf (with including rockets 2xR-27R1 + 2xR-73E, 5270 kg fuel). Considering the latter, it still gives a TWR of more than 1 (1.01)! How the hell is it severely underpowered?


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## SBD-3

Sanchez said:


> MKI is a good plane but is also severely underpowered. It looks great in performing those aerobatics at low speed. Has anyone ever seen nice moves when MKI has a payload on or at a higher and meaningful speed? I guess no.
> 
> If India inducts Typhoon or F/A-18 as MMRCA they should bring lots more headache to PAF than MKI.



I would love to get a further elaboration


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## Sanchez

hasnain0099 said:


> I would love to get a further elaboration



If we look at the basic features of Su-27/30, they have similar aerodynamic design and engines: very good manoeuvrability (instant and sustained turn at 28d/s and 22d/s, respectively).

Su-27/30: empty weight 16400 kg, 2 x 12500 kg engines.

For MKI, the weight increased 2000 kgs to 18400 kg. It means that MKI would make slightly less in sustained turn per sec. The addition of canards and TVC both contribute to help MKI in making instantaneous turns, so called agility. The high agility enables MKI have very large angle of attack that is advantagous in WVR or dog fight. 

However, the agility of MKI is speed dependent: the lower the speed the better the agility. It could do instantaneous turn between 27 - 35 d/s with help of TVC but again depending on speed. Since the thrust weight ratio of MKI drops, it may only fly as normal as a Su-27 when it's loaded.

Here's some comparison:
Su-35BM: empty weight 18400kg, 2 x 14500kg engines = better thrust/weight ratio or manoeuvrability when loaded.

J-11B: empty weight 15500kg, 2 x 13200kg engines = A lot better thrust/weight ratio

In reality one should forget the aerobatic tricks that MKI can do. Instead, ECMs, weapons or pilot skills would be more important factors to decide who will win.

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## DMLA

Sanchez said:


> If we look at the basic features of Su-27/30, they have similar aerodynamic design and engines: very good manoeuvrability (instant and sustained turn at 28d/s and 22d/s, respectively).
> 
> Su-27/30: empty weight 16400 kg, 2 x 12500 kg engines.
> 
> For MKI, the weight increased 2000 kgs to 18400 kg. It means that MKI would make slightly less in sustained turn per sec. The addition of canards and TVC both contribute to help MKI in making instantaneous turns, so called agility. The high agility enables MKI have very large angle of attack that is advantagous in WVR or dog fight.
> 
> However, the agility of MKI is speed dependent: the lower the speed the better the agility. It could do instantaneous turn between 27 - 35 d/s with help of TVC but again depending on speed. Since the thrust weight ratio of MKI drops, it may only fly as normal as a Su-27 when it's loaded.
> 
> Here's some comparison:
> Su-35BM: empty weight 18400kg, 2 x 14500kg engines = better thrust/weight ratio or manoeuvrability when loaded.
> 
> J-11B: empty weight 15500kg, 2 x 13200kg engines = A lot better thrust/weight ratio
> 
> In reality one should forget the aerobatic tricks that MKI can do. Instead, ECMs, weapons or pilot skills would be more important factors to decide who will win.



You are bringing up numbers without sources. Could you provide source for the weights you quote!?! Who told you that the weight of mki increased by 2000 kg? On top of all the unsubstantiated claims I am reading in your post, I should add that mki is slated for upgrades in 3-4 years which would include further weight reduction (compared to the vanilla mki/mkk/mkm's)

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## sancho

Sanchez said:


> If we look at the basic features of Su-27/30, they have similar aerodynamic design and engines: very good manoeuvrability (instant and sustained turn at 28d/s and 22d/s, respectively).
> 
> Su-27/30: empty weight 16400 kg, 2 x 12500 kg engines.
> 
> For MKI, the weight increased 2000 kgs to 18400 kg. It means that MKI would make slightly less in sustained turn per sec. The addition of canards and TVC both contribute to help MKI in making instantaneous turns, so called agility. The high agility enables MKI have very large angle of attack that is advantagous in WVR or dog fight.
> 
> However, the agility of MKI is speed dependent: the lower the speed the better the agility. It could do instantaneous turn between 27 - 35 d/s with help of TVC but again depending on speed. Since the thrust weight ratio of MKI drops, it may only fly as normal as a Su-27 when it's loaded.
> 
> Here's some comparison:
> Su-35BM: empty weight 18400kg, 2 x 14500kg engines = better thrust/weight ratio or manoeuvrability when loaded.
> 
> J-11B: empty weight 15500kg, 2 x 13200kg engines = A lot better thrust/weight ratio
> 
> In reality one should forget the aerobatic tricks that MKI can do. Instead, ECMs, weapons or pilot skills would be more important factors to decide who will win.


You are mixing up too many things at once don't you think?
At first the the MKI is a version of the Su 30 MK twin seater, so it is logical that it has an increased weight compared to Su 35, or J11 single seat versions. But if you compare it to similar versions like the Su 30MKK, the weight difference is only small, because of the addition of canards, a heavier PESA radar and TVC nozzels (should be a total of around 500Kgs). But unlike PLAAF that searched mainly for a twin seat multi role Flanker for strikes, IAF wanted to increase the capabilities and make it more useful for the air superiority role too. That's exactly why the MKI got these techs in addition, because although it makes the fighter slightly heavier than the MKK, the clearly increased agility and radar range was worth it!
So when it comes to agility, the MKI even with an inferior t/w ratio is way closer to single seat Flankers, than any MK version (unless the MKM of course), if not on par. 
Regarding TVC and high speeds, the F22 is known for high speeds and great maneuverability, which mainly comes from its 2D TVC right? Also the US follows a BVR combat strategy and don't focus too much on dog fights and low speed maneuverability anymore, so if TVC don't offer advantages at high speed turns too, why do they use it?
Shouldn't a fighter with TVC have advantages even at high speed turns, compared to fighters that only can use the rudders to turn? 
And to get back to the thread topic, the J10 is also known for its high maneuverability, but why are there still reports that the new Chinese engine for J10B will have TVC, if it only offers advantages at lower speeds?

Btw, the weight for Su 35BM is wrong! It is a single seat fighter which don't have canards anymore, reduced the weight with composites and other changes, so it can't weigh the same as a twin seat MKI and should be on par, if not lighter than J11.

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## Chinamilitary

Pakistan Air Force will postpone the purchase of J-10 fighter planes caused a huge reaction in China, a number of websites and forums reported and discussed the news.
China Military Report

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## Mani2020

Chinamilitary said:


> Pakistan Air Force will postpone the purchase of J-10 fighter planes caused a huge reaction in China, a number of websites and forums reported and discussed the news.
> China Military Report



lol we all were assuming that it may just be a rumor that appeared in just one newspaper but um shocked after reading your post 

did it appear in chinese newspaper?

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## TaimiKhan

Except for just one news source, no one else has reported this so called decision. Thus it can easily be said as unconfirmed report and as posted earlier seems to be a made up story. As no one knows this news source, and the major news sources did not report any such happening. 

Don't worry, InshAllah we will get the FC-20s at the right time.

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## Myth_buster_1

I have been saying this for a long time now. No offence but it seems to me PAF is not satisfied with J-10 to meet its 4.5 generation requirement that will be competing MKI and most probably Super Hornets. They want to integrate european advance systems and unfortunately it seems to me what ever was offered to them did not meet their requirements and IMO at most those systems were best for upgrading early models of Mirage-2000 or F-16s. If this is the case then PAF is better off with more block 52+.

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## shanixee

Growler said:


> I have been saying this for a long time now. No offence but it seems to me PAF is not satisfied with J-10 to meet its 4.5 generation requirement that will be competing MKI and most probably Super Hornets. They want to integrate european advance systems and unfortunately it seems to me what ever was offered to them did not meet their requirements and IMO at most those systems were best for upgrading early models of Mirage-2000 or F-16s. If this is the case then PAF is better off with more block 52+.



i agree with u sir...pakistan must concentrate on the US F16 block 52. and i hope u will also agree with me that in time of need like war time situations when we will surely be facing sanctions from the US. i hope u willl arrange spareparts and other tech facilities.....
as far as my info is concerned....no reliable source has confirmed that Pakistan is not buying J10....some times i think J10 and FC20 are both diffrent planes....the reason is that in news pappers always J10 is called with J10 and Fc20 is called with the name oof FC20....they separate them in news and by cheaf of airstaff...u may find this in Youtube..

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Chinamilitary said:


> Pakistan Air Force will postpone the purchase of J-10 fighter planes caused a huge reaction in China, a number of websites and forums reported and discussed the news.
> China Military Report




Origionally Pakitan Air force is slotted to get these birds 
2014/2015

2010 (Development & Testing)
2011 (Development & Testing)
2012 (Development & Testing) AESA radar integration
2013 (Final Tests) - live ammunition and weapons test
2014 (Wepons test final checks - tweaks) start hand over (18 planes)
2015 (18 planes)

So what the new news probbly mean was look ... we don't have 
J10B right now its advance version of J10 class , and its still being tested between 2010 -2013 so unless this testing is completed we can't possible be running this plane ...

So when testing is completed 2013 , we can start getting our shipments as agreed before 

Some people just mis understood that as a postponement , we all know we kicked F16 A/B and invested in J10 becasue its a superior Chinese plane 

China = Quality , innovation , great BVR fighting capability, Dependable support

Here is our JF17 Thunder project 
2010 *25 planes + 10 from china* 
2011 *25 planes + 10 from china*
2012 *25 planes + 10 from china*
2013 *25 planes + 10 from china* local production can be 30 planes max
2014 *25 planes + 10 from china* local production can be 30 planes max
2015 *25 planes + 10 from china* local production can be 30 planes max

Here is our F16 C/D
2010 *18 planes *
2011 possibly 9 planes (Option)
2012 possibly 9 planes (Option)

So .... 'THE SITUATION' looks good

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## Mani2020

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Origionally Pakitan Air force is slotted to get these birds
> 2014/2015
> 
> 2010 (Development & Testing)
> 2011 (Development & Testing)
> 2012 (Development & Testing) AESA radar integration
> 2013 (Final Tests) - live ammunition and weapons test
> 2014 (Wepons test final checks - tweaks) start hand over (18 planes)
> 2015 (18 planes)



From where did u get these stats?are these ur self generated or got from some source? mean any credible source?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

It is just common sense

AESA radar/ ENGINE issues on J10 are being addressed at moment and there is no hidden fact to it , obviously it means that we don't have the planes in our inventory 

Wiki has the reference - AESA radar/engine are areas that are being tweaked up 

So if someoen stated the obvious in some post .. its pretty obvious what they tried to say ..

Look ...the plane is not ready as chinese aviation is working on the AESA radar/ engine finalization issues and with out testing - which is suppose to happen anyway , we won't have any planes J10B before 2015 so cool down - 

We do not have these planes in our inventory

Before any plane diliveries are made from china to pakistan the planes are tested and evaluations are done prior to shipment - or any gadget...

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## Stealth

PAF stop buying more F16s and J10 and better to go for Rafale!


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## Mani2020

Stealth said:


> PAF stop buying more F16s and J10 and better to go for Rafale!



Sadly there is a huge price difference b/w j-10 and Rafael i dun thnk we can afford them.Paf evaluated them sometime ago but didnt orderd them and opted for j-10

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## Myth_buster_1

shanixee said:


> i agree with u sir...pakistan must concentrate on the US F16 block 52. and i hope u will also agree with me that in time of need like war time situations when we will surely be facing sanctions from the US. i hope u willl arrange spareparts and other tech facilities.....



actually i have arranged those spare parts for you. 
kindly go through F-16 deal which includes surplus amount of spare parts.


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## Arsalan

taimikhan said:


> Except for just one news source, no one else has reported this so called decision. Thus it can easily be said as unconfirmed report and as posted earlier seems to be a made up story. As no one knows this news source, and the major news sources did not report any such happening.
> 
> Don't worry, InshAllah we will get the FC-20s at the right time.



agreed!! 
first we heared about PAF going for 36 J10z prior to the FC20 inductions just to fill in the technology gap with IAF. lots of discussion took place in this very thread and in the end it turned to be nothing but a Rumor... same is going to happen with this news regarding PAF canceling the J10 deal!! as a matter of fact it is clear from day one that what PAF will go for will be the FC20 and that wont just be merely an export variant of J10 but offers a lot more in term of better avionics and an AESA radar to cop with the increasing threat being imposed by IAF's MKI and now the MMRCA deal!!

regards!


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## Arsalan

Growler said:


> actually i have arranged those spare parts for you.
> kindly go through F-16 deal which includes surplus amount of spare parts.



even if the F16 deal concludes PAF is acting wise enough to keep other safer options open!! i take it as a nice strategy!
PAF must not invest in more F16 unless we have got hold of first 18!

regards!

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## Sanchez

Chinamilitary said:


> Pakistan Air Force will postpone the purchase of J-10 fighter planes caused a huge reaction in China, a number of websites and forums reported and discussed the news.
> China Military Report



I won't say it's a huge reaction. We don't actually have an idea how it's going on with the tests of WS-10A fit J-10B. It only started from late 2009.


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## SBD-3

Growler said:


> I have been saying this for a long time now. No offence but it seems to me PAF is not satisfied with J-10 to meet its 4.5 generation requirement that will be competing MKI and most probably Super Hornets. They want to integrate european advance systems and unfortunately it seems to me what ever was offered to them did not meet their requirements and IMO at most those systems were best for upgrading early models of Mirage-2000 or F-16s. If this is the case then PAF is better off with more block 52+.



are you saying that PAF made another stupid mistake.....they took great interst in J-10.....must have evalutaed it.....it is also on the record that PAF pilots were very satisfied with it....and PAF conveyed to PLAAF that this fighter can be as good as Typhoon....So are you making an argument that PAF make a judgment in space? C'mon.....I have told you that PAF is interested in new J-10 type (J-10B).....and J-10B has not entered in service......so it is logical....pretty logical....that PAF will have to wait for J-10Bs.....cuz PLAAF will be the prioroty.....then Comes PAF.....the best possiblity would be a JV type ToPT...which would enable PAC to manufacuture them....But i dont think PAC would be too mature at this stage....


> Beijing could extend loans to purchasing countries and offer local assembly if there are sufficient orders, the source adds


here are some links i am sharing with you (i dont share my info links btw)China's AVIC steps up sales push for FC-1, J-10 fighters
China Defense Blog: J-10B for Pakistan


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## AVIAN

hasnain0099 said:


> are you saying that PAF made another stupid mistake.....they took great interst in J-10.....must have evalutaed it.....it is also on the record that PAF pilots were very satisfied with it....and PAF conveyed to PLAAF that this fighter can be as good as Typhoon....So are you making an argument that PAF make a judgment in space? C'mon.....I have told you that PAF is interested in new J-10 type (J-10B).....and J-10B has not entered in service......so it is logical....pretty logical....that PAF will have to wait for J-10Bs.....cuz PLAAF will be the prioroty.....then Comes PAF.....the best possiblity would be a JV type ToPT...which would enable PAC to manufacuture them....But i dont think PAC would be too mature at this stage....
> 
> here are some links i am sharing with you (i dont share my info links btw)China's AVIC steps up sales push for FC-1, J-10 fighters
> China Defense Blog: J-10B for Pakistan



*PAF conveyed to PLAAF that J-10 is as good as Typhoon*

But when this tregedy happened?


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## AVIAN

It is quite clear that, PAF has been going through very tough financial crisis and hence it may have put off the purchase. Regardless of euphoria on Pakistani Defence forum about the purchase of J-10, it was quite wise on the part of PAF to convey their hurdle in advanced rather then keeping rest of the aviation lovers in dark about possible purchase of J-10. 

It is quite shock to see that, not even J-10 has any affordibility quotient that can help PAF in the times of its crisis.


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## TaimiKhan

AVIAN said:


> It is quite clear that, PAF has been going through very tough financial crisis and hence it may have put off the purchase. Regardless of euphoria on Pakistani Defence forum about the purchase of J-10, it was quite wise on the part of PAF to convey their hurdle in advanced rather then keeping rest of the aviation lovers in dark about possible purchase of J-10.
> 
> It is quite shock to see that, not even J-10 has any affordibility quotient that can help PAF in the times of its crisis.



Once again saying this, there is no confirm report that the decision for delay has been taken. The story got reported from just one source, which is itself not reliable enough as it is a source which we don't hear much, rather never. 

As said on many occasions, PAF major acquisitions would be online by 2011, the F-16s, Saab Erieyes, Aerial tankers, radars and other stuff, which all have been paid for in advance or would be paid by then. Thus from 2010-11 onward there would be fiscal room available as we would only be paying for the JF-17s and the FC-20s, thus no fiscal worries there. 

And FC-20s intended induction is 2014-15 which is 5 years away, more then enough time available for getting the money required. And except for JF-17s and Chinese AEW&Cs no other major project or induction planned. Yeah, the rumor of the 1B+ Euro deal of French Avionics for JF-17s is there, but not yet confirmed, when it will get confirmed then we will see. And even if it gets confirmed, it won't be a full amount in advance deal, rather as per orders which are placed and that too will range on a number of years as per induction of JF-17s.

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## Arsalan

AVIAN said:


> *PAF conveyed to PLAAF that J-10 is as good as Typhoon*
> 
> *But when this tregedy happened*?



if you can spare out some time from trolling you can find out that:

*this tragedy never happened!!!!*​
  

i cannot understand how people use to jump into a thread and start posting without having slightest of idea that what is being posted and discussed!!!!

just cut this crap and go through last 20 posts!!

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## Myth_buster_1

hasnain0099 said:


> .they took great interst in J-10.....must have evalutaed it.....
> it is also on the record that PAF pilots were very satisfied with it....and PAF conveyed to PLAAF that this fighter can be as good as Typhoon....So are you making an argument that PAF make a judgment in space


What are you saying? J-10 par to EF-2000? Are you insane? Its like Indian fanboys claiming their LCA is better then Gripen and par with EF. Just for the record, PAF rejected J-10A back in 2004-6 while they were evaluating top european fighters and actually were very very impressed though due to political and financial hurdles europe could not win the orders. And few years ago a advance version of J-10 has been offered and a non westernized version is inferior to F-16 bock 52+ in many aspects. 


> ? C'mon.....I have told you that PAF is interested in new J-10 type (J-10B).....and J-10B has not entered in service......so it is logical....pretty logical....that PAF will have to wait for J-10Bs.....cuz PLAAF will be the prioroty.....then Comes PAF.....the best possiblity would be a JV type ToPT...which would enable PAC to manufacuture them....But i dont think PAC would be too mature at this stage....


J-10B is not even PLAAF priority because its a export product not intend for PLAAF use. 


> here are some links i am sharing with you (i dont share my info links btw)China's AVIC steps up sales push for FC-1, J-10 fighters
> China Defense Blog: J-10B for Pakistan


Thanks for sharing classified information with me  .


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## Arsalan

taimikhan said:


> Once again saying this, there is no confirm report that the decision for delay has been taken. The story got reported from just one source, which is itself not reliable enough as it is a source which we don't hear much, rather never.
> 
> As said on many occasions, PAF major acquisitions would be online by 2011, the F-16s, Saab Erieyes, Aerial tankers, radars and other stuff, which all have been paid for in advance or would be paid by then. Thus from 2010-11 onward there would be fiscal room available as we would only be paying for the JF-17s and the FC-20s, thus no fiscal worries there.
> 
> And FC-20s intended induction is 2014-15 which is 5 years away, more then enough time available for getting the money required. And except for JF-17s and Chinese AEW&Cs no other major project or induction planned. Yeah, the rumor of the 1B+ Euro deal of French Avionics for JF-17s is there, but not yet confirmed, when it will get confirmed then we will see. And even if it gets confirmed, it won't be a full amount in advance deal, rather as per orders which are placed and that too will range on a number of years as per induction of JF-17s.



bro i guess it is just you and me stupid enough for trying to tell them they same thing again and agian.
what i am going to do from no onward is just to refer such trolls to related posts!

regards!

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## SBD-3

Growler said:


> What are you saying? J-10 par to EF-2000? Are you insane? Its like Indian fanboys claiming their LCA is better then Gripen and par with EF. Just for the record, PAF rejected J-10A back in 2004-6 while they were evaluating top european fighters and actually were very very impressed though due to political and financial hurdles europe could not win the orders. And few years ago a advance version of J-10 has been offered and a non westernized version is inferior to F-16 bock 52+ in many aspects.
> J-10B is not even PLAAF priority because its a export product not intend for PLAAF use.
> 
> Thanks for sharing classified information with me  .





here is 2006 news about it


> 09 January 2006
> 
> China working on 'Super-10' advanced fighter
> 
> By Henry Ivanov JDW Correspondent
> Moscow
> 
> China is developing an advanced version of the Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Corporation (CAC) J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, referred to as the Super-10, with a more powerful engine, thrust-vector control, stronger airframe and passive phased-array radar, according to Russian sources.
> 
> Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG (RSK-MiG) specialists, contracted to provide technical assistance to Chinese design houses, said the enhancement to the J-10 airframe is a logical step, since the fighter was initially intended to have the compact Pratt&Whitney PW1120 engine that powered the Israeli Lavi aircraft, which served as a basis for the J-10.
> 
> However, the imposition of US export restrictions forced the decision to install the 20 per cent heavier Russian AL-31FN engine, which requires a larger intake as it needs 40 per cent more air flow.
> 
> In late 2005 China placed a USD300 million order for a second batch of AL-31FN engines; these are a derivative of the Su-27's AL-31F for single-engine aircraft, with a lower positioning of the gearbox. At first, it was believed the contract was for the same engines as in the first batch of 54 units supplied in 2001-02 and installed into development prototypes and initial production J-10s. However, AL-31FN-maker Moscow Machine Production Plant (MMPP) Salyut in December 2005 revealed the order to be for the AL-31FN M1, which is claimed to be a new AL-31FN production standard.
> 
> The company's general manager, Yuri Eliseyev, said the new engine was purposely developed for what he referred to as the "Chinese Super-10 fighter". Four such engines have been seen assembled at MMPP Salyut's Moscow production site. One of these has been demonstrated undergoing fire testing, during which its swivel nozzle was deflected up/down and sideways at full power and reheated thrust.
> 
> 283 of 916 words
> 
> 
> End of non-subscriber extract









remeber the interview of Chinese naval chief in which he required super cruising fighters.....I think J-10 will be in compitition with more powerful engine and TVC


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## Myth_buster_1

hasnain0099 said:


> here is 2006 news about it



why are you replying to me with links that i am already aware of? Whats your point?


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## Arsalan

well Hasnain i guess saying J10 to be on par EF2000 is a little too much. i mean the EF have the best westren equipment fitted into it. it is correctly claimed to be at number three spot after the F22 and F35 and J 10 is not of that class. saying this i am not degrading the J10 plane, it surely is a master peice and is good enough to match up with F16 blk52z, SU30z and Rafales!!

regards!


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## Arsalan

and yes!! that too i dont think wont match in its current J10 specs. but with a new engine, AESA radar, and perhaps TVC introduction the next J10 variants would be as good as F16 blk60, Su30z, Rafale and Gripens!!
i guess most of the members would agree with this!!

regards!


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## All-Green

The J-10 as it was, did not meet the PAF requirement and that is why we did not take an early delivery. J-10 was good but FC-20 has major upgrades and that was something we wanted.
The FC-20 is in the pipeline and the acquisition date is yet quite far off.

I would not believe any source other than PAF or GOP itself officially stating that FC-20 (not J-10) is not to be acquired...i do not think i have come across such a statement till date.

Had the J-10 in its past configuration been as good as Eurofighter, the PAF would have been really stupid not to buy it, it would have been the biggest Bang for Buck in history of aviation if that would have been the case...just some food for thought!

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## SBD-3

Growler said:


> why are you replying to me with links that i am already aware of? Whats your point?



here is my point
With

1) AESA....
2) Structural redesign
3) More powerful engine
4) DSI (Wich EF does not have not uptill T3 even IMO)
5) TVC (WS-10A or AL-31F M1)


> At this stage there are no definite plans to fit the nozzle to any production Eurofighter. However Eurofighter, EuroJet and a number of consortium nations and other companies have indicated a desire to include the nozzle (if possible) in Tranche-3 aircraft (due from 2010). This would fit with the stated desire of the four consortium nations to incorporate new technologies in sucessive Eurofighter production runs. The current Eurofighter struture has already been strengthened in anticipation of increased loads created by TVC as well as higher output EJ2x0 series powerplants.


Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Propulsion

6-Possible Supercruise (like Typhoon)
so Let J-10 spend some time.....I have high hopes with this bird...


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## sancho

hasnain0099 said:


> here is 2006 news about it


That wind tunnel model is not a J10, its a Rafale (2 rounded air intakes with canards directly besides them):





All-Green said:


> The J-10 as it was, did not meet the PAF requirement and that is why we did not take an early delivery. J-10 was good but FC-20 has major upgrades and that was something we wanted.
> The FC-20 is in the pipeline and the acquisition date is yet quite far off.
> 
> I would not believe any source other than PAF or GOP itself officially stating that FC-20 (not J-10) is not to be acquired...i do not think i have come across such a statement till date.
> 
> Had the J-10 in its past configuration been as good as Eurofighter, the PAF would have been really stupid not to buy it, it would have been the biggest Bang for Buck in history of aviation if that would have been the case...just some food for thought!



I think the question must be, what was PAFs requirement? 

J10A is a different airframe, with better A2A design and if I'm not wrong a bigger nose, for a bigger radar than the JF 17. But all key techs and weapons would have been the same, or similar Chinese radar and weapons. So in this config and in addition to the first batch of JF 17, it wouldn't offer much advantages for the higher costs right?
Even if PAF had considered western avionic pack, similar to JF second batch, which would have been on offer? Nothing that is in a similar class as the techs of EF T2, Rafale F2, or F16 B52, which again means not enough advantages for the higher costs.

So the requirement might not have been in direct comparison to western fighters, but to JF 17 and the capabilities that PAF already has with it.
EF in T2 is still limited as a multi role fighter, but so is J10A and even EF in T1 is clearly superior to J10A. Doubtful that they really compared those against each other.


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## wild peace

Guys the deal is going to confirm in march even with tot ....refrence todays Daily News and Daily Jhang page no 8.


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## Mani2020

wild peace said:


> Guys the deal is going to confirm in march even with tot ....refrence todays Daily News and Daily Jhang page no 8.



Can u paste the article here


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## aks

wild peace said:


> Guys the deal is going to confirm in march even with tot ....refrence todays Daily News and Daily Jhang page no 8.



on page no.8 of jang there is only columns of journalists


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## SBD-3

Yeah you're right..........I dont know why did he made such a vague post.....to get some thanks?????

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## Mani2020

wild peace said:


> Guys the deal is going to confirm in march even with tot ....refrence todays Daily News and Daily Jhang page no 8.



Dun understand the reason behind ur fake post...be careful nxt tym

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## pakpower

I think J-10B will gonna rock on his arrival in PAF.

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## wild peace

aks said:


> on page no.8 of jang there is only columns of journalists



Go and read the Jang paper Rawalpindi edition ....first then say some thing....... (hati kaa dant khana ka aur , aur dakhana ka aur)

one thing should be very clear to you guys Its really honor to be a part of this forum else what ever is after this ......Go and search that page if find it then past it here otherwise Tell me I shall do it but after both of u guys effort...........

just a peace but after wild


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## Mani2020

wild peace said:


> Go and read the Jang paper Rawalpindi edition ....first then say some thing....... (hati kaa dant khana ka aur , aur dakhana ka aur)
> 
> one thing should be very clear to you guys Its really honor to be a part of this forum else what ever is after this ......Go and search that page if find it then past it here otherwise Tell me I shall do it but after both of u guys effort...........
> 
> just a peace but after wild



We are not playing hide n seek here...if u have that news then post/paste it here ...so it would benefit other members

Regards


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## Arsalan

well* Mr. WildPeace* if there is any news article that backs your claim then you should post it here. it is not something to take for granted, we are all here to share knowledge and if you can do this it will be appreciatd and if you dont have any article all all you said were your sppeculation then you must have mentioned it and it would not have been a problem!!
it is *Mr Hasnain, Mani and aks *who are rightly advicing you to post that article as it would be helpfull for all of us!!!!
waiting to see you post soon!!

regards!


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## Arsalan

*@@ WILDPEACE*

brother still waiting for your responce!!!
nothing????
it will be really helpfull if you can post a link to back your claim!

regards!


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## news

In fact, J-10B is not the final version of the J-10 do not know you have not heard of-J-10-21.


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## SBD-3

news said:


> In fact, J-10B is not the final version of the J-10 do not know you have not heard of-J-10-21.



my bet.....next up is stealth optimized Twin engine Supercrusing J-10 Varient


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## TOPGUN

Guys wats going on with the fc-20 deal ?? any new news??


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Just like any news leaks about the JF 17 have been curtailed, I believe that the similiar thing has been done to the J 10 B procurement. Paf has put a lid on it and has stomped on it hard.


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## mean_bird

The last and most reliable news were heard from the PAF chief himself.

FC-20 technical negotiations are "almost over", some systems have to be developed and tested, Pakistan would like a radar of "its own choice" and the delivery dates are around 2013-14. PAF is also seeking credit facility for those planes.

I don't know how and why an internet based rumor can stir such debate and caste such doubts. What I mentioned above is the last we heard from any reliable source and that's where the deal stands for me.

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## araz

Guys relax!! There is time still for the plane to mature. PAF will have its hands full inducting Thunder and then the Block52s and MLUs. Do you think this is easy? It will take a lot of time. You do not want to complicate things by getting a half ccoked deal in a hurry.These things take time and our friends in China are hard at work perfecting the plane. Once things are ready, we will get the news that we have been waiting for.
Araz

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## Dazzler

It was a single news piece that created doubts in many minds. Let me state that they are coming for sure. The J-10 B was made for PAF as Chinese are even happy with the A version. J-10 B (FC-20) IS the Pakistani version of J-10 exclusively made by China on our specifications including Nriet AESA radar. Our pilots are taking part in test and evaluation phase since its creation.

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## Luftwaffe

araz..could we be seeing more than 36 orders of FC-20? to be its most likely and logical conclusion for waiting 4 more years..


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## Sanchez

nabil_05 said:


> It was a single news piece that created doubts in many minds. Let me state that they are coming for sure. The J-10 B was made for PAF as Chinese are even happy with the A version. J-10 B (FC-20) IS the Pakistani version of J-10 exclusively made by China on our specifications including Nriet AESA radar. Our pilots are taking part in test and evaluation phase since its creation.



China also has another J-10"B" variant with PLAAF specifications. These "B" variants have to be equipped with Chinese made engines.

The J-10B with DSI intake has been discussed as the PAF variant in China. China is helping to develop a suitable FC-20 that can put up a credible fight against MKI or MRCAs.

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## Dazzler

Sanchez


Thanks for confirmation bro


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

FC-20 /J10B .... wonderful Future Pakistani plane of Chinese origin

"Translation : Hope Pakistan Likes these planes" lol


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## A$HU

I have a doubt whether the pakistani j10 will be equipped with aesa or not.
I would be grateful if any pakistani bother can clarify my doubt.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

A$HU said:


> I have a doubt whether the pakistani j10 will be equipped with aesa or not.
> I would be grateful if any pakistani bother can clarify my doubt.



We all want the fighter jets to come with AESA radars including these two 

"I want it AESA WAY"






our FC20/J10B will have AESA , cuz we all want it that way


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## araz

luftwaffe said:


> araz..could we be seeing more than 36 orders of FC-20? to be its most likely and logical conclusion for waiting 4 more years..



Luftwaffe
The preliminary order will be for 36. PAF will almost certainly buy more than that and the overall number may go up to 100-150. If you look at the current fleet of PAF we will need at least 200 high end fighter or perhaps more to keep a balance of power in the subcontinent.With the f16s and J10s PAF has got options and it will certainly play one against the other (in the nicest possible way!!! ) to get what it wants. The third factor is how much improvements the JF17 gets and to what extent is that going to change the picture.To be honest if we improve Thunder, it will be at the expenserof old blocks of F16s rather than FC20.
There are other confounding factors as to what else becomes available and what the threat perception turns out to be in the local arena which will change our acquisition strategy , but you can make a pretty good guess that we will be flying more than 36 J10s/FC20, and you wont be wrong.
regards
Araz


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## araz

A$HU said:


> I have a doubt whether the pakistani j10 will be equipped with aesa or not.
> I would be grateful if any pakistani bother can clarify my doubt.



There are credible reports coming out of china that they have an AESA radar available to install in J10and possibly FC1s. PAF will initiate a competition and whatever comes out best will be incorporated.
Araz

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## A$HU

araz said:


> There are credible reports coming out of china that they have an AESA radar available to install in J10and possibly FC1s. PAF will initiate a competition and whatever comes out best will be incorporated.
> Araz


Thanx for your post.
But you cannot initiate a competition for something like aesa radars .They are are highly sensitive technologies.But even if there is an competition which would be the other country which is interested in selling aesa to pakistan.


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## DANGER-ZONE

guys,i found the first ever J10s picture.it is the first prototype......look very similar to LAVI.

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## TaimiKhan

A$HU said:


> Thanx for your post.
> But you cannot initiate a competition for something like aesa radars .They are are highly sensitive technologies.But even if there is an competition which would be the other country which is interested in selling aesa to pakistan.



We have very good relations with Italian manufacturers from whom we got Grifo radars, Falco UAV, Spada SAM system and other stuff. 

SO what PAF did before was make a competition between Grifo radar manufacturers and Chinese ones for the current radar of JF-17s, which the Chinese won by supplying a superior radar. 

Similarly, the Vixen series radar are a good choice for any future AESA radar for JF-17, and Chinese are gonna come with something to compete with them.

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## TaimiKhan

danger-zone said:


> guys,i found the first ever J10s picture.it is the first prototype......look very similar to LAVI.



A better comparison:

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

J10B can only be compared to F16 delta wing

The Israel plane was just stolen design for F16XL


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## Peregrine

Hi,
Some how i think J-10 is a much better looking plane than Lavi.


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## Sanchez

taimikhan said:


> We have very good relations with Italian manufacturers from whom we got Grifo radars, Falco UAV, Spada SAM system and other stuff.
> 
> SO what PAF did before was make a competition between Grifo radar manufacturers and Chinese ones for the current radar of JF-17s, which the Chinese won by supplying a superior radar.
> 
> Similarly, the Vixen series radar are a good choice for any future AESA radar for JF-17, and Chinese are gonna come with something to compete with them.



China's radar tech advances fast. 

Grifo was superior at the time of J-7PG. The first 50 JF-17s have a Chinese PD radar. If PAF wants an open bid to get AESA radars on JF-17 China could offer one in competition. China's AESA is different from Russia's now that Russia has to buy certain key parts from Europe.

There are reportedly two fighter AESA radars certified. Induction of AESA radars on J-10As and J-11s began in 2008.

Personally I think PAF should procure both European and Chinese radars for J-10B.

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## SBD-3

just found this........


> China&#8217;s fifth-generation efforts date back to the early 1990s and will start with two heavy fighters from China&#8217;s two main fighter companies. A Chinese source told me in early 2005 that the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, famous for developing the fourth-generation J-10 fighter, was considering the development of a medium-weight fifth-generation plane comparable to the F-35. This could mean that Chengdu&#8217;s fighter will be built in vertical take-off and aircraft carrier versions. In 2006, the competing Shenyang Aircraft Corporation revealed a concept for a single-engine forward-swept-wing fighter that would be highly maneuverable and potentially stealthy. It seems the PLA envisions two levels to its program: a heavy fighter for maintaining air superiority, and a medium-weight plane that&#8217;s cheaper and more versatile.
> 
> Even before China&#8217;s fifth-generation fighter flies, advances in electronics and engines will enable new &#8220;four-plus&#8221; generation fighters, like the J-10B that recently began flight testing. These fighters and eventual fifth-generation fighters will pose a more effective challenge to current and future U.S. air forces, and will make obsolete the fourth-generation fighter fleets of Japan, South Korea and Taiwan.


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## TaimiKhan

Sanchez said:


> China's radar tech advances fast.
> 
> Grifo was superior at the time of J-7PG. The first 50 JF-17s have a Chinese PD radar. If PAF wants an open bid to get AESA radars on JF-17 China could offer one in competition. China's AESA is different from Russia's now that Russia has to buy certain key parts from Europe.
> 
> There are reportedly two fighter AESA radars certified. Induction of AESA radars on J-10As and J-11s began in 2008.
> 
> *Personally I think PAF should procure both European and Chinese radars for J-10B.*



Looking at JF-17 avionics future, it seems so. PAF will try to get both western & Chinese avionics & radars on its JF-17s & FC-20s, leaving aside the F-16s which would be fully American ones. 

This way PAF can compare the techs of both sides and see which lags what and which has advantage on the other one, that way Chinese can improve their tech further if required, and PAF can even ask the western to make some improvements. And other operational benefits would be gotten too. 

Chinese would always love to supply PAF with something from their best, as their tech has now improved a lot and can give the western manufacturers a run for their money. 

Hope we see an AESA radar soon from China.


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## manglasiva

if most of the subsystems imported,,what benefit u have if say Russians comes into the market with their own low cost aircraft with same features and at a fraction of cost ?


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## Aslan

manglasiva said:


> if most of the subsystems imported,,what benefit u have if say Russians comes into the market with their own low cost aircraft with same features and at a fraction of cost ?



The Russians have a thing of building something good and competitive but at the same time the cheaper it is from them the more injury prone it becomes. At present the Mig 29 is also in the market cheap but it is a disaster with in its self. I could be wrong.

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## Thunder Omni Role

Bird in hand better than 2 in bush...so far J-10B seems like pipe dream. I have heard people getting emotional and telling me it will be comparable to Block 50+ F-16. I honestly believe this is nonsense and if Chinese can upgrade J-10 to such levels, JF-17 can go through same. Let us focus on our workhorse instead of worrying about acquiring 30 odd unknown planes from China. 

People say PAF struck deal for this bird long ago, but why without seeing finished product? We should play cool with any military acquisition that we are not getting benefits of production or knowhow from now on, including from China. Budget does not allow waste.


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## MastanKhan

Thunder Omni Role said:


> Bird in hand better than 2 in bush...so far J-10B seems like pipe dream. I have heard people getting emotional and telling me it will be comparable to Block 50+ F-16. I honestly believe this is nonsense and if Chinese can upgrade J-10 to such levels, JF-17 can go through same. Let us focus on our workhorse instead of worrying about acquiring 30 odd unknown planes from China.
> 
> People say PAF struck deal for this bird long ago, but why without seeing finished product? We should play cool with any military acquisition that we are not getting benefits of production or knowhow from now on, including from China. Budget does not allow waste.




Hi,

I gues you might have missed out on the posts of the last 4 ---6 years.

The first blk of J 10 is already in service with plaaf for the last many years. Pakistan possibly tested that airframe in 2003 or somewhere around that time.

PAF showed interest in that plane on the condition that it would be modified to what PAF wants---first of all the chinese were surprised to find that paf and the world knew about that plane at that time---secondly about the modifications that paf engrs proposed. Once those modicfications were acknowledged by the chinese engrs for paf, they accepted it to be superior to J 10 A.

The blk 52 that we are getting, the J 10 B would be as good or better than that---paf won't say---but the J 10 B would be better than blk 52 that is coming in this year.

Blk 60 is a different story.

Currently---the PAF has gone into a shell for the last six months and has stopped any news leak about its current weapons system---the JF 17---the awacs--J 10 B.

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## TaimiKhan

manglasiva said:


> if most of the subsystems imported,,what benefit u have if say Russians comes into the market with their own low cost aircraft with same features and at a fraction of cost ?



Currently except for the engine, what other you see russian in J-10 ?? 

And most probably, what variant we will get of FC-20, it would be with Chinese engine, so nothing russian in it ?? 

And by the way, Russia is no more a communist country, they are now capitalist too.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Actually, russia doesnot have the time, energy or the money to come up with a similiar aircraft to compete. And neither does it have the time for that.

Secondly, russia has already moved ahead in a different direction---it is now more focused on manufacturing something that can stand upto the three top tier american and european aircraft.

All of its focus is now on high end twin tail twin engine aircrafts. Single engine are a part of the history as of now.


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## SBD-3

Thunder Omni Role said:


> Bird in hand better than 2 in bush...so far J-10B seems like pipe dream. I have heard people getting emotional and telling me it will be comparable to Block 50+ F-16. I honestly believe this is nonsense and if Chinese can upgrade J-10 to such levels, JF-17 can go through same. Let us focus on our workhorse instead of worrying about acquiring 30 odd unknown planes from China.
> 
> People say PAF struck deal for this bird long ago, but why without seeing finished product? We should play cool with any military acquisition that we are not getting benefits of production or knowhow from now on, including from China. Budget does not allow waste.



I suggest you do some research before posting any thing.....don't expect constrainted PAF to be too stupid to spend on such a thing which they would not know...PAF pilots recomended it after flying it. themselves...


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## bc040400065

news said:


> In fact, J-10B is not the final version of the J-10 do not know you have not heard of-J-10-21.



please if u can provide some info about this version????????????


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## a1b2c145



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## TOPGUN

Wat is going on with our fc-20? no news no nothing lately uff..


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## M_Saint

TOPGUN said:


> Wat is going on with our fc-20? no news no nothing lately uff..


Add on to your frustration are no missile test, no NUKE deal, No U-214 deal and continuation of the box of AKQ etc. Having observed PAK related developments for years, I've become edgy to inform that it has already been reduced to an Indian dictated/subordinated state like Bangladesh. And FC-20 order is now a distant reality IMO.


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## TaimiKhan

M_Saint said:


> Add on to your frustration are no missile test, no NUKE deal, No U-214 deal and continuation of the box of AKQ etc. Having observed PAK related developments for years, I've become edgy to inform that it has already been reduced to an Indian dictated/subordinated state like Bangladesh. And FC-20 order is now a distant reality IMO.





Good Joke for day start.


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## M_Saint

taimikhan said:


> Good Joke for day start.



BRO Taimi,

Your counter claims regard the Media reports on AVM Rao's negation on ordering FC-20 were read thus rational of forming jokes in your mind was understood. But that portion aside, could you please tell why wait for F-Solas for 4 YRS without DFRM and AESA were prefferd than taking deliveries of off the shelf J-10As right away? While MKIs numbers were rising monthly and PAK-FA as well as MRCAs were taking shapes at IND, what rational could be behind such delaying brain-fart? And while Indians tested missiles reguraly, why did you guys need to boast the ability of yester year? I can go on with many more whys but the above citation along with giving IND central Asian link, killing its enemies in PAK soil seem part of the joke to start a day for you, brother?


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## TaimiKhan

M_Saint said:


> BRO Taimi,
> 
> Your counter claims regard the Media reports on AVM Rao's negation on ordering FC-20 were read thus rational of forming jokes in your mind was understood. But that portion aside, could you please tell why wait for F-Solas for 4 YRS without DFRM and AESA were prefferd than taking deliveries of off the shelf J-10As right away? While MKIs numbers were rising monthly and PAK-FA as well as MRCAs were taking shapes at IND, what rational could be behind such delaying brain-fart? And while Indians tested missiles reguraly, why did you guys need to boast the ability of yester year? I can go on with many more whys but the above citation along with giving IND central Asian link, killing its enemies in PAK soil seem part of the joke to start a day for you, brother?



F-16s are a battle tested, very much liked, with maintenance infrastructure & experience available platform to PAF. While J-10A lacks these things so far, and the major issue in J-10As are the Russian Engine, which would have been difficult to acquire as you know yourself how hard was for us to get it, with Indian opposition to it. RD-93 isn't that much of a super class engine, so the Russians even with Indian opposition gave it, but if it had come to the AL-31 series engine, the Russians won't have given it as J-10 would have been a serious adversary. So the major reason was engine and the early stage of the Chinese avionics. 

Pak-Fa & MRCA or MMRCA are all still in the pipeline, and the FC-20s & JF-17s and hopefully a future Chinese Stealth are all the platforms that would be inducted to counter these Indian aircraft. 

If you look at history, India always has enjoyed a superiority in quality and quantity both. They are bigger nation and we can't compete at 1:1. 

And as for Missile tests and other stuff, well if you hadn't noticed for last 2 years we have been going under severe internal conflict crises, and in this chaos, doing such tests makes no sense as people & soldiers are getting martyred on daily basis, so such chest thumping is of no use. 

India is our main adversary, and we have all the missiles and other stuff to counter it. If we have a 2500KM missile, no need for now to go to a 3000KM missile as no enemy is there at 3000KM mark. We need to cover India, which we have, now we need to get other capabilities to increase our conventional strength and defeat the taliban menace. 

So Bangladesh may have submitted to Indian pressure, but we haven't. Let us first deal with this internal issue, then we will see about the other things mentioned by you. 

And don't you worry, all the defence organizations are doing their work and making new things and perfecting older ones, no need to panic. 

And IAF superiority would also be countered with. We are a cash strafed country thanks to our oligarchs, so we will take some time to counter the threat. Be assured, we aren't sleeping. 

And yeah FC-20s deal is still on and you will see them inducted on time, God forbid if something else not happens. 

Thanks for your concern.

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## no_name

Apparently I read it somewhere (chinese) that J-10Bs were meant to provide some stop gap measures against F-15 silent eagle that Japan and S/Korea may op for replacement of their older craft.


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## a1b2c145



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## IceCold

Just wondering have we droped the idea of acquiring J-10s. The reason i am inclined to ask this question is because we are trying to obtain 14 more F-16s apart from the already 18.


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## mean_bird

IceCold said:


> Just wondering have we droped the idea of acquiring J-10s. The reason i am inclined to ask this question is because we are trying to obtain 14 more F-16s apart from the already 18.



The J10s might come some time around 2014 as there are still things to sort out. The 14 F-16s might arrive sooner and it they are EDAs, cheaper too. 

PAF would like 150 or so hi-end planes and the sooner you get them, the better.


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## Adios Amigo



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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

New phi-ter ki baat hi kuch aur hoti hai ....

new advance J10B fighters


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## Dazzler

Hmmm very interesting, the new cockpit for Chinese J-10 A !

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## Sanchez

PAF might be able to try mixed formation of F-16bk52 and J-10B. F-16 might have better avionics and electronic warfares (ECW). J-10B will certainly be better in maneuverability and agility. The combination could offer better capability against MKIs.

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## Karakoram8 Eagle

J-10 cming to land!


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## Sanchez

Nice looking bird from PLAAF 44th division stationed close to Burma/Endia.


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## Creder

Any ideas on when they are going to start getting these birds ?


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## Peregrine

Creder said:


> Any ideas on when they are going to start getting these birds ?


Hi
By 2014 i guess


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## Luftwaffe

instead of opening another thread i'm posting this video here..video is old enjoy..
lol to "thus denying us air supremacy" as it is their right and to "proliferation"-selling fighter jets to other nations.

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## SekrutYakhni

Sanchez said:


> PAF might be able to try mixed formation of F-16bk52 and J-10B. F-16 might have better avionics and electronic warfares (ECW). J-10B will certainly be better in maneuverability and agility. The combination could offer better capability against MKIs.



These two qualities i.e. avionics and maneuverability will be in the future J10 (unknown) 

*InshAllah*


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## Trichy

Sanchez said:


> Nice looking bird from PLAAF 44th division stationed close to Burma/Endia.



Hi Shina


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## SU-33

http://club.mil.news.sina.com.cn/slide.php?tid=198003#p=3

aircraft cockpits of J10S

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## hataf

SU-33 said:


> ¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³_ÐÂÀËÍø
> 
> aircraft cockpits of J10S



does j10 has train mapping ability


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## Indestructible

Possible future PAF jet - J10B


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## araz

Indestructible said:


> Possible future PAF jet - J10B



Note the presence of the pitot tube. Does this signify that J10B is still being tested. This and its introduction into the PLAAF has been what has held PAF from ordering it in numbers.
Araz


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## Indestructible

Bro! Could you tell me what is a pilot tube?

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## TaimiKhan

Indestructible said:


> Bro! Could you tell me what is a pilot tube?



Read this:

Pitot tube - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## applesauce

araz said:


> Note the presence of the pitot tube. Does this signify that J10B is still being tested. This and its introduction into the PLAAF has been what has held PAF from ordering it in numbers.
> Araz



if i remember correctly there are newer pics of J-10B's that are fully combat equipped and as such i believe they are nearly done testing or are already putting them in service.


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## dingyibvs

applesauce said:


> if i remember correctly there are newer pics of J-10B's that are fully combat equipped and as such i believe they are nearly done testing or are already putting them in service.



You mean like this one?






Doesn't have the pitot tube either. This is the 3rd prototype I believe, the pic surfaced 3 or 4 months ago.


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## mean_bird

Indestructible said:


> Possible future PAF jet - J10B





araz said:


> Note the presence of the pitot tube. Does this signify that J10B is still being tested. This and its introduction into the PLAAF has been what has held PAF from ordering it in numbers.
> Araz



This is the first prototype of the J-10b that was tested and this is amongst the first pictures that we got on the internet of the j-10b. 
Notice the "01" which means its the first prototype. 

This picture is probably from sometime early 2009.


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## Ham-ster

[/COLOR]


Indestructible said:


> Possible future PAF jet - J10B



WoW this looks like F-16.......


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## S.U.R.B.



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## DANGER-ZONE

this is J-10b 03.





but there isnt any electronic pod under both wing.





and some SPY photos of 03


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## DANGER-ZONE

one more...


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## hataf

danger-zone said:


> one more...



the engine name ????
in this picture


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## TaimiKhan

hataf said:


> the engine name ????
> in this picture



Russian AL-31 variant, already being used in the J-10 series. 

Chinese one is not yet fully ready.

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## razgriz19

^probably the russian...


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## razgriz19



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## DANGER-ZONE



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## aimarraul




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## DANGER-ZONE

aimarraul said:


>


looks similar to APG-68(v9).is it for j-10 or fc-20


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## Dazzler

Mechanical Scan Antenna, most likely a J-10 A radar. J-10 B has an ESA one developed in Lab -14 (Nriet)


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## Kompromat

*Update*


U.S. Jing Bao: Chinese Five planes of two newly developed real insider (2010-04-13 10:41:33) reproduced Tags: military 
The Wall Street Journal September 1, 2009 published in the United States, Chinese military expert Richard - Fisher's article, the article's title is "to create a fighter in China - Beijing's Five military challenge to the United States", the article content as follows: 




The article first said that out of a few exceptions, very few Chinese show of military construction in progress or strategic considerations of substantive information, but the recent Moscow air show and other air show news, plus occasional interviews with Chinese and Russian engineers that the next generation of air superiority in terms of China will not yield to any party, especially the United States. 






The article said that Beijing during long-term efforts to build a can and the U.S. F-22 and F-35 fighter jets to rival the Five Dynasties period, which can be a large range of stealth aircraft, equipped with advanced radar, can not open Afterburning room to achieve supersonic cruise conditions. PLA naval officer in April made a request, that is, during the 60th anniversary of National Day can be a supersonic cruise aircraft. Currently only the United States to deploy the F-22A "Raptor" Five fighters can do that. 







The article goes on to say, be sure, China faces many technical difficulties, particularly the development of a 15-ton thrust to other advanced engine, which is a bottleneck. But China's efforts to develop the Five machines of the last century can be traced back to the early 90s, and will begin the two planes from the major manufacturers began to develop two heavy fighters. Fisher said in the article, in early 2005, a Chinese source told him the news that R & D J-10 fighter and the well-known four generations of CAC is considering the development of a comparable U.S. F-35 medium machine Five This may mean that they will build a vertical take-off of the carrier-based aircraft version. In 2006, Shen Fei revealing the (development of) a single, before the idea of a little wing aircraft, the aircraft will be equipped with high maneuverability and stealth performance potential. It appears that the PLA for its plan envisions two levels of fighter: one is to maintain air superiority of the heavy fighter, one is more use of cheaper mid-sized fighter. 







Fisher's article goes on to say, even in China's Five Dynasties machine before God, in the electronic systems and engine areas of progress will enable a new "fourth generation +" fighter as possible, for example, come in to begin flight tests of the J-10B aircraft. This is the end of the Five fighters and fighters of the Air Force will be present, and future challenges constitute a more effective, will enable Japan, Korea and Taiwan, the fourth generation fighter group to be outdated waste. U.S. Navy is not seeking F-22 fighter as good as the plan, but intends to rely on the slower F-35C, it is the most suitable for an attack mission. 







The article mentioned, the PLA seeks to accelerate these projects as a research and development, reducing reliance on foreign technology to Russia and other means. News from Ukraine, said Ukraine and China, a research company is discussing the development of China's Five Dynasties and machine engines second paragraph of item, but a large number of aircraft sold to China, the Russian Sukhoi aircraft company officials pointedly, not in China The Five aircraft projects to help, but with the development of India's Five machine cooperation. 







Fisher also said that China in the (development of new aircraft side) alone is about to produce several important implications. Sale of aircraft to a third party, the China's current dependence on Russian technology, in fact, gave Moscow a veto. As China-made engines in the self-made design expertise, she will get rid of this restriction, allowing the larger goal of sales within the country to sell their advanced aircraft. U.S. Jing Bao: Chinese Five planes of two newly developed real insider (2010-04-13 10:41:33) reproduced Tags: military 
The Wall Street Journal September 1, 2009 published in the United States, Chinese military expert Richard - Fisher's article, the article's title is "to create a fighter in China - Beijing's Five military challenge to the United States", the article content as follows: 




The article first said that out of a few exceptions, very few Chinese show of military construction in progress or strategic considerations of substantive information, but the recent Moscow air show and other air show news, plus occasional interviews with Chinese and Russian engineers that the next generation of air superiority in terms of China will not yield to any party, especially the United States. 






The article said that Beijing during long-term efforts to build a can and the U.S. F-22 and F-35 fighter jets to rival the Five Dynasties period, which can be a large range of stealth aircraft, equipped with advanced radar, can not open Afterburning room to achieve supersonic cruise conditions. PLA naval officer in April made a request, that is, during the 60th anniversary of National Day can be a supersonic cruise aircraft. Currently only the United States to deploy the F-22A "Raptor" Five fighters can do that. 







The article goes on to say, be sure, China faces many technical difficulties, particularly the development of a 15-ton thrust to other advanced engine, which is a bottleneck. But China's efforts to develop the Five machines of the last century can be traced back to the early 90s, and will begin the two planes from the major manufacturers began to develop two heavy fighters. Fisher said in the article, in early 2005, a Chinese source told him the news that R & D J-10 fighter and the well-known four generations of CAC is considering the development of a comparable U.S. F-35 medium machine Five This may mean that they will build a vertical take-off of the carrier-based aircraft version. In 2006, Shen Fei revealing the (development of) a single, before the idea of a little wing aircraft, the aircraft will be equipped with high maneuverability and stealth performance potential. It appears that the PLA for its plan envisions two levels of fighter: one is to maintain air superiority of the heavy fighter, one is more use of cheaper mid-sized fighter. 







Fisher's article goes on to say, even in China's Five Dynasties machine before God, in the electronic systems and engine areas of progress will enable a new "fourth generation +" fighter as possible, for example, come in to begin flight tests of the J-10B aircraft. This is the end of the Five fighters and fighters of the Air Force will be present, and future challenges constitute a more effective, will enable Japan, Korea and Taiwan, the fourth generation fighter group to be outdated waste. U.S. Navy is not seeking F-22 fighter as good as the plan, but intends to rely on the slower F-35C, it is the most suitable for an attack mission. 







The article mentioned, the PLA seeks to accelerate these projects as a research and development, reducing reliance on foreign technology to Russia and other means. News from Ukraine, said Ukraine and China, a research company is discussing the development of China's Five Dynasties and machine engines second paragraph of item, but a large number of aircraft sold to China, the Russian Sukhoi aircraft company officials pointedly, not in China The Five aircraft projects to help, but with the development of India's Five machine cooperation. 







Fisher also said that China in the (development of new aircraft side) alone is about to produce several important implications. Sale of aircraft to a third party, the China's current dependence on Russian technology, in fact, gave Moscow a veto. As China-made engines in the self-made design expertise, she will get rid of this restriction, allowing the larger goal of sales within the country to sell their advanced aircraft. *The new J-10B may have been intended for Pakistan. *

Google Translation , source Chinese internet.


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## Kompromat

J10B would have a retrackable refuling probe ?

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## hataf

Black Blood said:


> J10B would have a retrackable refuling probe ?



thats great


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## hataf

aimarraul said:


>



aimarraul 

can u translate the chinees language on these pictures


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## Koga Ryu

Interesting link about J-10 and its technologies on BBC.

BBC News - China shows off its fighter jets to the world

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## Crypto

*China has given the world* a glimpse of its air force at a special performance by a display team.
Four Chinese-made J-10 fighters put on a show of aerial stunts at a military base just outside the city of Tianjin.
China hopes the manoeuvrability and price of the J-10 will make it attractive to buyers in other countries.
The BBC's Michael Bristow was at the show in Tianjin.

*Link for video
*
BBC News - China shows off its fighter jets to the world


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## DANGER-ZONE

Koga Ryu said:


> Interesting link about J-10 and its technologies on BBC.
> 
> BBC News - China shows off its fighter jets to the world



so if u'd like to see the high resolution pictures of same event....
click here.http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/54004-j-10s-stunning-aerobatic-pictures.html

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## dingyibvs

hataf said:


> aimarraul
> 
> can u translate the chinees language on these pictures



It's nothing important, she's just introducing the aircraft.


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## applesauce

hataf said:


> aimarraul
> 
> can u translate the chinees language on these pictures



frame one, it is like a kid(maybe shes saying the plane is new?)

rest, j-10 is the work(heart and blood) of generations of our people(engineers i suppose)

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Reference:
'Pak can buy Chinese J-10 fighter jets' | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

*'Pak can buy Chinese J-10 fighter jets'*
Published: April 14, 2010 
Print Facebook Digg StumbleUpon Text Size 
YANGCUN AIR BASE, China, (Reuters) - Four Chinese J-10 fighter jets banked and sported in perfect formation in the blue skies near Tianjin on Tuesday, before executing a neat landing, their braking parachutes billowing out just in front of a viewing stand filled with military attaches.
Many of the 51 attaches, some from Africa and the Middle East, may be future customers for the Made-in-China fighter jet.
So far no other country&#8217;s air force has the J-10, but China hopes the plane&#8217;s manoeuvrability and price can compete with the US and others in sales to third countries, many of them allies through whom Beijing is courting global influence.
Ever since the early 1990s, China has been working to slim and upgrade its military into a modern fighting force. That means developing fighters for the People&#8217;s Liberation Army Air Force, and also planes that others would want.
*&#8220;Yes, we have been given the option of getting this aircraft, and we are studying this option,&#8221; said Salman Ahsan Bokhari, the Beijing-based air attache from Pakistan, tipped as a potential bulk buyer of the J-10.*&#8220;Until this time, we haven&#8217;t seen it physically flying... It&#8217;s a good time for all the world&#8217;s air force to know the PLA has a valuable and important aircraft flying in the skies.&#8221;

Islamabad is negotiating with the United States to buy 14 more F-16 fighter planes, Pakistan defence officials said in March after talks aimed at reversing tempestuous ties between the allies.
&#8220;In Pakistan we have Western aircraft, French aircraft and Chinese aircraft, so we will be able to see how we can position this in,&#8221; Bokhari said, referring to possible purchases of the J-10. The Alabama-trained pilot said he wanted to try flying it.
&#8220;Price-wise, this is a point which is still under discussion, the main point.&#8221;
*For pilots like Yan Feng, the beauty of the J-10 lies in its manoeuverability, its stability, and its integrated avionics system.
Compared to a J-7 plane, which China has already exported, the J-10 &#8220;is like an adult to a child,&#8221; Yan said.*&#8220;As a pilot and a division chief, I am very proud to have J-10 aircraft.&#8221;

Yan estimated a J-10 cost the PLA Air Force, which he noted is also a consumer, about 190 million yuan ($27.84 million). That&#8217;s pricey compared to the $15 million-plus price tag on a U.S. F-16 fighter, a favourite of world air forces.
&#8220;I believe the vendors know how to put it across to whoever the buyer is,&#8221; said K Gambo, military attache from Nigeria, who said his country might consider buying from China.
&#8220;With good bargaining the price can come down.&#8221;

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## air marshal

Chinas 4th gen J-10 fighter redesigned, upgraded by Pakistan as FC-20

China&#8217;s 4th gen J-10 fighter redesigned, upgraded by Pakistan as FC-20 Military Strategy

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## Adios Amigo



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## was




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## Indestructible

I don't know why PAF is delaying induction of new J-10s when there is so much need for a capable fighter jet.


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## Mani2020

Indestructible said:


> I don't know why PAF is delaying induction of new J-10s when there is so much need for a capable fighter jet.



Because of the ongoing modifications to further improve the aircraft, According to PAF ex Air Chief j-10 lacked in some aspects so to make j-10 on power with its western counterparts an upgraded variant named as fc-20 will b inducted in PAF but not before 2015


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## thunder rules

i want this bird to be soon inducted in paf.. its look good as well as lethal.


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## Indestructible

Mani2020 said:


> Because of the ongoing modifications to further improve the aircraft, According to PAF ex Air Chief j-10 lacked in some aspects so to make j-10 on power with its western counterparts an upgraded variant named as fc-20 will b inducted in PAF but not before 2015



This was said in 2004. And I am not really sure even after the upgrades it can encounter the Indian MMRCA and current SU-30. Don't you think we need something more big?


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## F86 Saber

Indestructible said:


> This was said in 2004. And I am not really sure even after the upgrades it can encounter the Indian MMRCA and current SU-30. Don't you think we need something more big?



Yeah lets buy A-380's and arm them with Babur's and 30mm cannons, they big enough???


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## Mani2020

Indestructible said:


> This was said in 2004. And I am not really sure even after the upgrades it can encounter the Indian MMRCA and current SU-30. Don't you think we need something more big?



We have to buy according to our budget and sadly we have much limited budget thats why unlike india we cant buy western aircrafts with huge price tags neither we can launch a tender like their's .

Aircrafts like Rafale and Ef-2000 or even f-18 E/F are not affordable for us ,so at the end of the day we have to get what we can with suitable modifications to improve it as best as we can


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## TaimiKhan

Indestructible said:


> This was said in 2004. And I am not really sure even after the upgrades it can encounter the Indian MMRCA and current SU-30. Don't you think we need something more big?





F86 Saber said:


> Yeah lets buy A-380's and arm them with Babur's and 30mm cannons, they big enough???



Hear what the Ex-CAF had to say about FC-20. Personally i belief we are not gonna see a final version of FC-20 or confirm news till Indian MRCA tender has not been awarded, as PAF would like something which can counter both Su-30s and the MRCA winner, so the specifications might not have been finalized so far, but would be at a very advanced or near to final stage, so that when Indian winner is announced, things which are left are incorporated to counter the new Indian jet.


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## AVIAN

TaimiKhan said:


> Hear what the Ex-CAF had to say about FC-20. Personally i belief we are not gonna see a final version of FC-20 or confirm news till Indian MRCA tender has not been awarded, as PAF would like something which can counter both Su-30s and the MRCA winner, so the specifications might not have been finalized so far, but would be at a very advanced or near to final stage, so that when Indian winner is announced, things which are left are incorporated to counter the new Indian jet.
> 
> YouTube - Chief of Air Staff talks to media at IDEAS 2008 Defence Exhibition - November 27, 2008




There is really nothing that can stop PAF to buy J-10 regardless of what MRCA purchase of IAF would be. Fact of the matter is, PAF really somehow fighting for enough budget to fulfill its growing needs of rising threat on its eastern border.


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## Mani2020

AVIAN said:


> There is really nothing that can stop PAF to buy J-10 regardless of what MRCA purchase of IAF would be. Fact of the matter is, PAF really somehow fighting for enough budget to fulfill its growing needs of rising threat on its eastern border.



He meant to say that once MRCA will be decided thn PAF will get to know what IAF has selected, so PAF can upgrade FC-20 with respect to the selected MRCA in order to get best out of it and counter the MRCA threat


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## TaimiKhan

AVIAN said:


> There is really nothing that can stop PAF to buy J-10 regardless of what MRCA purchase of IAF would be. Fact of the matter is, PAF really somehow fighting for enough budget to fulfill its growing needs of rising threat on its eastern border.



Budget us not an issue, as PAF major purchases have nearly ended & paid for, now only the JF-17s & FC-20s are left to be inducted. 

As said FC-20 is going through technical specifications upgrade as per PAF requirements. By the time they are finally done, PAF will have funds and we all know China would give the seller credit facility as they have no issues with that and such facility gives us a bigger fiscal room to work into. 

And yes MRCA is important, as just like Su-30s, we need something to counter the future Indian jet, as we can't later on again start running and look for another platform to match the MRCA winner, so better from now start looking for one. 

JF-17s are gonna be the work horse for now, until a much more upgraded variant is not seen, F-16s and FC-20s are gonna be the front line fighters, which will be taking on the Indian Su-30s and MRCA winner.


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## hataf

i can't seee your pics


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## a1b2c145



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## Super Falcon

thanx alot for amazing and beautyfull photos of truely marvelous fighter jet


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## razgriz19



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## araz

Nobody commented on the fact that only the last picture is one of J10B. Also please note that it is without its pitot tube, which means they are either PSed, or its development has progressed a lot further than we thought. I dont know what PLAAF wants to do with J10Bwith regards to induction. There are mutterings that it is very much on the cards and PLAAF has already curtailed J10 production. There is also rumour(??source) that there are more than one B variants. So which way is this conundrum going to settle?
Araz

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## TaimiKhan

araz said:


> Nobody commented on the fact that only the last picture is one of J10B. Also please note that it is without its pitot tube, which means they are either PSed, or its development has progressed a lot further than we thought. I dont know what PLAAF wants to do with J10Bwith regards to induction. There are mutterings that it is very much on the cards and PLAAF has already curtailed J10 production. There is also rumour(??source) that there are more than one B variants. So which way is this conundrum going to settle?
> Araz



Well there is no recent picture which shows the pitot tube replaced, thus it is photo shopped, as this picture in the original scheme is out there. J-10 production line does not seems to have ceased as Chinese forums are still getting pictures of newer J-10s being inducted, thus till the finalization of the J-10B design with DSI, this production line is still gonna go, as China needs these planes. 

J-10B still seems to be in the testing stage, and may take 1-2 years more before we may see it coming into production. 

And for more then B variant, well there may be, as one variant may be for PAF specifications and CAF may get their own variant with their specification equipment. 

Chinese designations are sometimes confusing and no one can be sure about them. I remember, some Chinese forums even talking about the B variant to be in the old design shaped, they say there was initially, the J-10, then came the J-10A and a much more non-DSI old shape J-10B, and this newer DSI J-10B. so confusion all around. 

But it hasn't yet come into the production stage, and we may have to wait for another 1-2 years before we see it finally coming into production.

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## wangrong

TaimiKhan said:


> But it hasn't yet come into the production stage, and we may have to wait for another 1-2 years before we see it finally coming into production.



the J10B is very close to the Initial Operations Clearance

*2010-2011*

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## TaimiKhan

wangrong said:


> the J10B is very close to the Initial Operations Clearance
> 
> *2010-2011*



Well then my guess of 1 year is good enough  

As the plane design has not been radically changed, DSI and little bit nose change are the most noticeable ones, rest of the wings, tail, canard and other stuff is same, so it shouldn't take much time in finalizing the flying characteristics and profile with these changes. 

Then the story goes to the avionics, which i believe may take time or may be even its near finalization too, as an AESA seems must and probable in this variant. But as usual our worries are about the engine, hope to see a in production fully ready WS-10 or WS-10A soon. As without the engines difficult for us to get hands on the J-10.

Hope to see more details and why no more pictures of the J-10B DSI variant coming online ?? Its been quiet awhile.

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## wangrong

TaimiKhan said:


> Well then my guess of 1 year is good enough



1&#12289;composite material&#65288;substantial increase&#65289;
2&#12289;DSI
3&#12289;new IRST


4&#12289;new E-pod/ECIPS&#65288;Electronic Combat Integrated Pylon System

5&#12289;new radar

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## Jazzbot

is it 4th generation or above ..? sorry for my lake of knowledge.. 
and also i think this is the plane in which Pakistan is interested a lot, as per my knowledge J10 or J10 B ..


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## Mani2020

jazzy_superior said:


> is it 4th generation or above ..? sorry for my lake of knowledge..
> and also i think this is the plane in which Pakistan is interested a lot, as per my knowledge J10 or J10 B ..



J-10A is 4th generation where as j-10b would be 4.5 generation and the basic version of j-10 will be upgraded according to PAF needs and will known as FC-20 in Paf service


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## TOPGUN

Whats going on with the fc-20 ? there is no recent news etc... i wonder .


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## Peregrine

Hi
is it certain that Chinese will give Pakistan J-10B with top notch configuration & not a downgraded variant as it was reported on this forum that they will not be giving us KJ-2000 as they consider it too advanced.


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## Speeder 2

Hi guys, 

KJ 2000 for the moment for not, me thinks that China would do her best to provide PAF some key equipment upgrades just enough to deal with IAF, to more or less maintain the current military statue quo of the South Asia. If J-XX comes out well as expected, personally I think PLAAF would like to arm FC-20 to the teeth if neccesary. Call me optimistic, I even think it's quite logical for China to send a J-XX variant to PAF somewhere after 2025 if PAKFA poses a sufficient threat to PAF.

I just read a report yesterday out of The Hong Kong Commercial Daily(HKCD), a newspaper in HK (written in Chinese ????---???). HKCD was the first financial newspaper published in Chinese after WW2, a quite serious business paper, sort of like Financial Times to the UK. I don't know its quality on millitary-related news, but generally it is not considered as a tablod news source. 

The article wnet that there's a recent rumour (  of course it's only a rumour as no one really has the truth due to the ultra high level of security of the project) that PLAAF 5th gen 's maiden flight being imminent, since PLAAF is quite busy at training related pilots for the next gen.

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## chengdusudise

jazzy_superior said:


> is it 4th generation or above ..? sorry for my lake of knowledge..
> and also i think this is the plane in which Pakistan is interested a lot, as per my knowledge J10 or J10 B ..



maybe PAF is interesting in finally version of J-10------J-10-21?
the latest fifth G fighter J-20 rumoured will make the first test fly in this or next year. generally, these "rumours" from some well-thought-of member in china military forums will be confirmed finally


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## nakodo

Indestructible said:


> Possible future PAF jet - J10B



The air intake on this 1 is so much better than j10a


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## Kompromat

nakodo said:


> The air intake on this 1 is so much better than j10a



This is DSI or Divertless supersonic Intake they also are used now on Thunders.

Infact Thunder is world's First operational Fighter Jet in production with DSI's.


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## nakodo

^^^^^^^^^
Code One Magazine: JSF Diverterless Supersonic Inlet &#8212; July 2000

Dug up some info on DSI. It was first TESTED on F16 Blk 30. 

The *unassuming fuselage bump at each inlet* on the Lockheed Martin Joint Strike Fighter performs miracles that only aeronautical engineers can fully appreciate. At high aircraft speeds through supersonic, the bumps work with forward-swept inlet cowls to redirect unwanted boundary layer airflow away from the inlets, essentially doing the job of heavier, more complex, and more costly approaches used by current fighters.

DSI Flight Tests

The overall inlet design, called a diverterless supersonic inlet or DSI, moved from concept to reality when it was installed and flown on a Block 30 F-16 in a highly successful demonstration program. The flight test program consisted of twelve flights flown in nine days in December 1996. The first flight on 11 December addressed initial envelope clearance and functional checks. Subsequent flights addressed performance characteristics of the unique inlet design in both level and maneuvering flight. Rapid throttle transients during these flights confirmed the compatibility between the inlet and engine.

The flight tests covered the entire F-16 flight envelope and achieved a maximum speed of Mach 2.0. The modified aircraft demonstrated flying qualities similar to a normal production F-16 at all angles of attack and at all angles of sideslip. Lockheed Martin test pilots *performed two inflight engine restarts and 164 successful afterburner lights, with no failures*. Fifty-two afterburner lights were performed during hard maneuvers. *No engine stalls or anomalies* occurred during the test flights.

The new inlet showed slightly better subsonic specific excess power than a production inlet and that verified the overall system benefits of eliminating the diverter. Test pilots remarked that military power settings and thrust characteristics were very similar to standard production F-16 aircraft with the same General Electric F110-GE-129 engine. Considering the overall goal of the flight test program was to demonstrate the viability of this advanced inlet technology, the results were excellent.

Fighter Inlet Design Basics

*in flightTactical aircraft pose a formidable challenge for inlet designers. A fighter inlet must provide an engine with high-quality airflow over a wide range of speeds, altitudes, and maneuvering conditions while accommodating the full range of engine airflow from idle to maximum military or afterburning power. *The inlet designer must also consider the constraints imposed by configuration features, such as nose landing gears, weapon bays, equipment access panels, and forebody shaping.* The design must produce the lowest drag, lowest weight, lowest cost, and highest propulsion performance. It must also meet stringent low observable requirements.*

Historically, *inlet complexity is a function of top speed for fighter aircraft. Higher Mach numbers require more sophisticated devices for compressing supersonic airflow to slow it down to subsonic levels before it reaches the face of the engine.* (Jet engines are not designed to handle the shock waves associated with supersonic airflow.) These compression schemes involve the conversion of the kinetic energy of the supersonic airstream into total pressure on the compressor face of the engine. Speeds over Mach 2 generally require more elaborate compression schemes. The F-15 inlet, for example, contains a series of movable compression ramps and doors controlled by software and elaborate mechanical systems. The ramps move to adjust the external and internal shape of the inlet to provide the optimum airflow to the engine at various aircraft speeds and angles of attack. Doors and ducting allow excess airflow to bypass the inlet.

Inlet designs for fighter aircraft must also account for* a layer of low-energy air that forms on the surface of the fuselage at subsonic and supersonic speeds. (These layers also form on the inlet compression surfaces.) This layer of slow moving, turbulent air, called a boundary layer, can create chaos when disturbed by the shock waves created by the inlet. The result can be unwanted airflow distortions at the engine face. If the shock wave/boundary layer interaction is severe enough, the engine will stall. The boundary layer thickens with increased speed and increased forebody distance, the length from the nose of the airplane to the inlet itself.
*
JSFDesigners of supersonic aircraft deal with this boundary layer phenomenon by redirecting the layer before it reaches the engine and placing the inlet away from the boundary layer in the freestream, where airflow is unaffected by the boundary layer phenomenon.* On the F-16, a structure called a diverter provides a 3.3-inch gap between the fuselage and the upper lip of the inlet. The size of the gap equates to the thickness of the boundary layer at the maximum speed of the F-16.* *Other fighters remove boundary layer airflow with combinations of splitter plates and bleed systems*. The latter redirect the unwanted airflow through small holes in the compression ramps to bleed ducts within the inlet.* The DSI bump functions as a compression surface and creates a pressure distribution that prevents the majority of the boundary layer air from entering the inlet at speeds up to Mach 2. In essence, the DSI does away with complex and heavy mechanical systems.*

DSI Origins

The DSI traces its roots to work done by Lockheed Martin engineers in the early 1990s as part of an independent research and development project called the Advanced Propulsion Integration project. The concept was developed and refined with Lockheed Martin-proprietary computer modeling tools made possible by advances in Computational Fluid Dynamics, or CFD. CFD is the science of determining a numerical solution to the governing equations of fluid flow and advancing this solution through space or time to describe a complete flow field of interest&#8212;in this case, the flow field of a fighter forebody, inlet, and inlet duct.

JSF dynamicsCFD, considered a branch of fluid dynamics, provides a cost-effective means of simulating airflow. The development of more powerful computers has furthered CFD advances to the point that it has become the preferred means of evaluating aerodynamic designs.

Basic research of the inlet concept continued through the mid-1990s. Traditional wind tunnel testing of small plastic inlet models built with stereolithographic techniques augmented a CFD-based development process for the DSI. Engineers made enough technical advances during this period that two US patent applications were filed, one dealing with the overall design and the second dealing with the integration process of the new technology. (Both patents were granted in 1998.) *The diverterless inlet designs built and tested with this combination of CFD and small-scale wind tunnel models formed a database of inlet configurations that would subsequently prove valuable to the Lockheed Martin JSF design.*

Stereolithography

Stereolithography builds a part very quickly from a vat of photocurable resin. A laser scans the surface of the resin, following a computer-based description of the part. The laser draws the bottom layer of the part first. When the layer is complete, a platform just below the cured layer drops lower into the vat of resin. Fresh resin washes over the part, and the laser proceeds to build the next layer. A three-dimensional design is built up in this additive process. When all layers are complete, the part is cleaned and put through a final curing process.

Full-Scale Test Inlet

The DSI flight-tested on the F-16 in 1996 was designed on computer workstations using three-dimensional solid models. It was developed with minimal airframe impacts and maximum use of existing hardware to reduce design and manufacturing costs. The F-16&#8217;s modular inlet design allowed development of a DSI-equipped inlet module without significant impacts to the aircraft forebody or center fuselage. As with the existing inlet design, the new inlet module formed part of the forward fuselage extending from the inlet leading edge to the interface between the forward fuselage and center fuselage. The compression surface was attached to the existing forward fuselage below the cockpit without affecting the rest of the forebody or the chine. New duct lines were developed to form a transition from the new inlet aperture to the existing duct.

inlet constructionThe upper surface of the F-16 inlet module forms the floor of the forward fuel tank. This fuel tank is located directly behind the pilot. The lower surface of the fuel tank floor forms the upper surface of the F-16 inlet duct. This fuel tank floor offered an ideal starting point for the structural layout of the new inlet module since it is an assembly that can be procured directly from the F-16 production line. The diverter support beam was also retained and, in combination with the fuel tank floor, formed the primary means of attaching the new inlet module to the forward fuselage.

inlet constructionThe inlet module consisted of 300 parts, which included 113 machined parts and eighty-three formed skin panels. The bump, more accurately termed a fixed, three-dimensional compression surface, was formed from graphite epoxy at LM Aeronautics facilities in Palmdale, California. Most of the substructure consists of aluminum. The inlet module was built and installed at LM Aeronautics facilities in Fort Worth, where the flight tests took place.

LM Aeronautics JSF Design Adopts DSIinlet construction

The DSI concept was introduced into the JAST/JSF program as a trade study item in mid-1994. It was compared with a traditional "caret" style inlet. The trade studies involved additional CFD, testing, and weight and cost analyses. T*he new inlet earned its way into the JSF design after proving to be thirty percent lighter and showing lower production and maintenance costs over traditional inlets while still meeting all performance requirements.*

inlet constructionThe flight tests on the F-16 validated the aerodynamic properties of the inlet, which will be validated further on the upcoming flights of the Lockheed Martin JSF demonstrator aircraft in 2000. The flight test also proved that the analytical performance and inlet flow stability predictions from the CFD analysis matched operations in the real world. The JSF program further refined the production version of the DSI design using these CFD tools.

The DSI inlet used on the JSF has evolved through several design iterations. The shaft-driven lift fan on the STOVL JSF required the use of a bifurcated duct with one inlet on each side. The initial version was essentially the same design used on the lower surface of the F-16 rotated up onto either side of the JSF forward fuselage. This design had a cowl that wasinlet construction symmetrical about the centerline of the bump. This version of the inlet appears on the X-35 demonstrator aircraft. Later CFD analysis and testing led to refinements of the design to improve its performance at high angles of attack by shifting the upper and lower cowl lips to take advantage of the side-mounted location and to improve high angle-of-attack performance. This later version has been fully tested in the wind tunnel and will be used on the EMD and on production aircraft.

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## rizhussain44

^^^^^



nakodo said:


> ^^^^^^^^^
> Code One Magazine: JSF Diverterless Supersonic Inlet  July 2000
> 
> Dug up some info on DSI. It was first TESTED on F16 Blk 30.
> ...



You might be correct and so is BB when he says that thunder is the world's first *operational Fighter Jet in production* with DSI's.

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## Dark Angel

*The overall inlet design, called a diverterless supersonic inlet or DSI, moved from concept to reality when it was installed and flown on a Block 30 F-16 in a highly successful demonstration program. The flight test program consisted of twelve flights flown in nine days in December 1996. The first flight on 11 December addressed initial envelope clearance and functional checks. Subsequent flights addressed performance characteristics of the unique inlet design in both level and maneuvering flight. Rapid throttle transients during these flights confirmed the compatibility between the inlet and engine.*














*The DSI flight-tested on the F-16 in 1996 and were produced later on with DSI intakes so F-16 was serial produced with DSI .....SO HOW DOES THUNDER BECOME FIRST ONE TO DO SO*


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## IceCold

Dark Angel said:


> *The overall inlet design, called a diverterless supersonic inlet or DSI, moved from concept to reality when it was installed and flown on a Block 30 F-16 in a highly successful demonstration program. The flight test program consisted of twelve flights flown in nine days in December 1996. The first flight on 11 December addressed initial envelope clearance and functional checks. Subsequent flights addressed performance characteristics of the unique inlet design in both level and maneuvering flight. Rapid throttle transients during these flights confirmed the compatibility between the inlet and engine.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The DSI flight-tested on the F-16 in 1996 and were produced later on with DSI intakes so F-16 was serial produced with DSI .....SO HOW DOES THUNDER BECOME FIRST ONE TO DO SO*



They were developed but for the sole purpose of testing while thunders have been inducted and will commence active duty. Has an F-16 with DSI saw active duty? No so that makes thunder the first operational jet with DSI.

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## Aslan

@ nakodo;
@ Dark Angel;

First operational jet guys, the F-16 was experimental. If it make you guys to feel any better J-17 is the first jet in production and operation and is also inducted with DSI. Now stop derailing the thread. Thanks

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## Comrade

PAF wanted the plane to be extensively tested and all of its components to be matured by the time it inducts them. This may be frustrating to us, but wise in general. After all it will be the premier fighter aircraft of the PAF and it wants to make sure it has systems that work rather than look pretty. PAF is lucky in that it has bought time with the induction of the JF-17 and the F-16block 52s being inducted later this year. These will give the PAF the breathing room it needs until J-10B has met PAFs requirments. Besides, no MMRCA until ~2015 in all likelyhood.


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## nakodo

rizhussain44 said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> 
> 
> You might be correct and so is BB when he says that thunder is the world's first *operational Fighter Jet in production* with DSI's.



What is meant by operational? I believe the Pakistanis are still looking for avionics for this plane. Till such time as its complement is not complete it is hardly a fighter, at best a air plane.


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## TaimiKhan

nakodo said:


> What is meant by operational? I believe the Pakistanis are still looking for avionics for this plane. Till such time as its complement is not complete it is hardly a fighter, at best a air plane.



It has a radar with 110KM+ detection and tracking range, it has avionics, it has data link capability, RWR & defensive suit, can launch PGMs, launch BVR missiles. 

It had everything which any modern fighter can have. 

Its in production, nearly 20 or may be more are made, first Sqd with 14 aircraft became operational and has joined the strength and force of PAF. Even has taken part in the air campaign against the militants. 

*And is fully capable to take on its adversary aircraft rather aircrafts. *

Hope enough said to make you understand that it is the first operational inducted aircraft with DSI intakes and the F-35 would be the second one.

And yeah as for looking for avionics, that is to make it compatible with western weaponry, as western weaponry is tried and tested and we currently have lot of western weapons in our inventory and we can easily get them from western sources and in case of war, friendlier nations can also supply them.

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## rizhussain44

nakodo said:


> What is meant by operational? *I believe the Pakistanis are still looking for avionics for this plane. *Till such time as its complement is not complete it is hardly a fighter, at best a air plane.



Well... thanks to Taimi he has already replied to this. 

Regarding the avionics package that PAF is looking for, that is for the 2nd batch of Thunder. A squardon of atleast 14 planes from the first batch is already operational with the Chinese avionics.


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## bc040400065

well as always indian can never accept something good about pakistan... no surprise... the whole world knows that thunder has DSI and is in production and operational with PAF but no indians will never accept no matter what

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## TaimiKhan

bc040400065 said:


> well as always indian can never accept something good about pakistan... no surprise... the whole world knows that thunder has DSI and is in production and operational with PAF but no indians will never accept no matter what



Couldn't agree more. Tomorrow will say, it has all steel body and no composites (which many had said before also), thus it is not a fighter but just an airplane. Even without knowing what JF-17 is really made of. 

Anyway, that is understandable.


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## nakodo

bc040400065 said:


> well as always indian can never accept something good about pakistan... no surprise... the whole world knows that thunder has DSI and is in production and operational with PAF but no indians will never accept no matter what



CC: Taimikhan

Dont let history clutter your vision & lead you on to pronouncements that belie the standard of this forum. I never said the cr@p you are rofl about. All I said is it was tested on F16 and that in my opinion JF17 is still not operational if PAF is still looking for fitments for it. Appreciable since unlike the IAF which is chasing the perfect plane, the PAF is being more practical.

Infact I hope Pakistanis can do a better job of offering competition to the Indians. Had things gone per plan I would have hoped to see F/A 18s and JSFs in the pipeline for PAF, but not so. We need some seriously capable AF across the border so that the dividends of competition can be reaped this side. A la US vs USSR race to outdo each other.

If the Thunder has DSI that is a fact & cannot be denied.


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## Aslan

nakodo said:


> CC: Taimikhan
> 
> Dont let history clutter your vision & lead you on to pronouncements that belie the standard of this forum. I never said the cr@p you are rofl about. All I said is it was tested on F16 and that in my opinion JF17 is still not operational if PAF is still looking for fitments for it. Appreciable since unlike the IAF which is chasing the perfect plane, the PAF is being more practical.
> 
> Infact I hope Pakistanis can do a better job of offering competition to the Indians. Had things gone per plan I would have hoped to see F/A 18s and JSFs in the pipeline for PAF, but not so. We need some seriously capable AF across the border so that the dividends of competition can be reaped this side. A la US vs USSR race to outdo each other.
> 
> If the Thunder has DSI that is a fact & cannot be denied.




Great trolling. Keep it up. U make all of trolistan happy. I bet soon there will be more of your CC buddies joining you to mess up a perfectly staraight forward discussion. 
*
We need some seriously capable AF across the border so that the dividends of competition can be reaped this side. A la US vs USSR race to outdo each other.* 

You should be happy about it, imagine we are able to give you guys heart burn with the not so good quality second grade merchandise that we have. Then what we would have been able to do if we had better stuff. Stop acting like a typical Brichsaw driver and stop derailing the thread.

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## nakodo

^^^^^^^^^
& Just when I thought I had run into some1 who could offer something substantial. Nada.


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## Aslan

nakodo said:


> ^^^^^^^^^
> & Just when I thought I had run into some1 who could offer something substantial. Nada.



Thats ok the door is right behind you and make sure u close it on your way out. 

Why dont you enlighten us by what substantial offerings are you looking for.


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## Aslan

nakodo said:


> If I have your ear, I'd like you to stop being a jerk. There are other Pakistanis here who handled the same issue with a lot more poise.
> 
> One you have reconciled yourself then you can go back to #2429. If you have been true, prolly you can see things in a new light.



AA gaye na apni auqat pay. Now I asked you a question what exactly is the information that you are looking for.


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## Dazzler

Nakodo

It is understandable just why you are making a mountain out of mole. Somethings hurt too much but to bear them is the only way out....

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## Aslan

nakodo said:


> If I have your ear, I'd like you to stop being a jerk. There are other Pakistanis here who handled the same issue with a lot more poise.
> 
> One you have reconciled yourself then you can go back to #2429. If you have been true, prolly you can see things in a new light.



your query was answered by 4 different people and still you came back with more trolling and rather then accepting the facts bring in more issues. I gues that the guy who posted 2 posts before the one that you had mentioned 2429 was right it is nothing more then the case of heart burn by you indian that we have something that actually works and you have something that you have to beg others to make it work. And what irony I am the jerk 

---------- Post added at 02:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 AM ----------




nabil_05 said:


> Nakodo
> 
> It is understandable just why you are making a mountain out of mole. Somethings hurt too much but to bear them is the only way out....



Thanks that is what me and others are trying to tell the troll.

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## nakodo

nabil_05 said:


> Nakodo
> 
> It is understandable just why you are making a mountain out of mole. Somethings hurt too much but to bear them is the only way out....



How can you make a mountain out of a mole. I am more or less appreciative of how PAF has gone about inducting thunder, but I am also pointing out that PAF need not have settled for just the thunder as their lead a/c. Better planes could have been introduced to the subcontinent.

@khalidali:

May be I am expecting too much from you.


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## Aslan

nakodo said:


> How can you make a mountain out of a mole. I am more or less appreciative of how PAF has gone about inducting thunder, but I am also pointing out that PAF need not have settled for just the thunder as their lead a/c. Better planes could have been introduced to the subcontinent.
> 
> @khalidali:
> 
> May be I am expecting too much from you.



Stop with your fake concerns this is what you had to say about the same issue in other thread;
*
The thing is that while India has for long been entrenched in the decision making and design of military systems with foreign partners aka collaboration, Pakistan only collaborates with China for 2nd rung stuff and that too from an inferior status of i-will-make-do-with-whatever-you-got. When was the last time Pakistan got involved in some military project that made heads turn around the world? The nuke leakers ring?*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...refuses-sell-barak-8-turkey-5.html#post824648

What Pakistan buys and makes is non of your concern. And no your expecting any thing from me you cant just handle some one when they try to tell you the truth if it dont suit you.

*And congrats you have been successful in derailing the thread for good 2 pages. I request every one to stop entertaining the troll and dont answer him any more and mods please take action. If I have done any thing which have derailed the thread I will own up to it. *


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## araz

nakodo said:


> How can you make a mountain out of a mole. I am more or less appreciative of how PAF has gone about inducting thunder, but I am also pointing out that PAF need not have settled for just the thunder as their lead a/c. Better planes could have been introduced to the subcontinent.
> 
> @khalidali:
> 
> May be I am expecting too much from you.



Nakodo
Your querry has been answered. it may be a play of words to you but the fact is that you are both right. As explained earlier, no one denies the fact that DSI was *TESTED* on the F16. It was subsequently adfapted for use on the JSF and Thunder. Thunder is the only *OPERATIONAL *plane with DSI. We have a fully weaponised and tested squadron inducted with flight testing complete. It has also been explained to you that western avionics are being looked at for *Block2* and not the current block. This is our right to avail all avenues to make the plane better than what it is. 
Now can we move on or will be still be stuck here on this topic? You may not have liked what khalid , taimi or nabil have said to you but , I have spelled it out to you very civilly.
Lets move on people.
Araz

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## hataf

araz said:


> Nobody commented on the fact that only the last picture is one of J10B. Also please note that it is without its pitot tube, which means they are either PSed, or its development has progressed a lot further than we thought. I dont know what PLAAF wants to do with J10Bwith regards to induction. There are mutterings that it is very much on the cards and PLAAF has already curtailed J10 production. There is also rumour(??source) that there are more than one B variants. So which way is this conundrum going to settle?
> Araz



there is no pitot tube in new j-10 b

The 01/1031 prototype of the new J-10B was unveiled in March 2009, 3 months after its maiden flight in December 2008. This much improved variant features a DSI/bump engine inlet which not only cuts weight but also reduces RCS, after a similar design was first tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. The aircraft also features a J-11B style IRST/LR and a wide-angle holographic HUD. IRST enables passive detection of enemy aircraft, making J-10B more stealthy in combat. Its nose appears flatter too, similar to that of American F-16, and fire-control radar is thought to be an X-band AESA developed by the 607 Institute, the first of such type ever being developed for a Chinese fighter aircraft, giving J-10B a stronger multi-target engagement and ECCM capability. Two large ECM pods are attached under the wings. The tip of vertical tailfin was redesigned as well, featuring a large fairing containing communication and ECM antennas, which resembles that of French Mirage 2000. A rear facing MAWS sensor can be seen underneath the parachute boom. A similar system was tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. RAM coating is also expected in certain areas such as engine inlet and wing leading edges to reduce RCS. The aircraft may be fitted with CFTs in the future to further extend its range. All these improvements suggest that J-10B is equipped with a new generation of integrated electronic system, ranging from radar to EW system. The aircraft thus serves likely as a testbed for various advanced avionics onboard the 4th generation J-20 (see below). Its mission may be changed from air-superiority to multi-purpose, such as AG or EW. In addition, the aircarft is expected to be powered eventually by an indigenous WS-10A turbofan. Overall J-10B is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60. The latest image indicated that the 03 prototype has flown, which has the pitot tube rumoved from the nose tip. 

the picture of prototype 03



here is link
Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force

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## DANGER-ZONE

*FOLKS*
J10 is compared to F16 and Lavi from initial stages.both f16 and Lavi(cancelled) were made to be 4 generation fighters.now J10 is meant to be 4+ fighter.
But have u guys ever thought about TVC engine concept in J10? which makes it high maneuvering aircraft and different to other single engine birds.

*NOW CONSIDER THIS !*

this is an initial design of J10,which shows similarities b/w Lavi and J10 to high extent.
*J-10*

*LAVI*





NO TVC,SMALL DESIGN,MUCH CLOSER CANARDS,EVEN AIR BREAKS ARE SIMILAR.

*but things change later.WANT TO KNOW WHY?*

a research air craft of *U.S.NASA-German Rockwell-Messerschmitt-B&#246;lkow-Blohm X-31 VECTOR* _Enhanced Fighter Maneuverability program_ started in late 80's and first prototype built on October 11,1990.
more details here Rockwell-MBB X-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
this was built to study high Maneuverability.
its simple design is this.




1-Semi delta wings.
2-Canards 
3-vertical stabilator 
4-TVC Engine.
u can easily find all these things in J-10




although the canards are fitted on different position as compare to X-31 but changed from first design like LAVI'S.

I READ ABOUT IT A FEW MONTHS AGO IN A FORUM OF F-16.NET BUT COULDN'T FIND IT RIGHT NOW.BUT STILL RESEARCH CAN CLARIFY THE CONCEPT DESIGN.


enjoy a few more snaps of X-31.

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## farhan_9909

Who is better
f-16 block 52 or J-10B?

If j-10B then i am sure we should nt buy j-10B..j-11B will be a better option..

My option for future is

J-11B or Rafale.twin engine


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## TOPGUN

Seems as something is not in the mix right.. we are not hearing anything further about the fc-20? whats going on?


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## Sanchez

TOPGUN said:


> Seems as something is not in the mix right.. we are not hearing anything further about the fc-20? whats going on?



FC20 must have TH engines. They are still under testing (starting from last year).


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## Luftwaffe




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## cherryerror

latest leaked photo of J10B #1033 with PLLA's emblem painted. Enjoy it.

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## Arsalan

TOPGUN said:


> Seems as something is not in the mix right.. we are not hearing anything further about the fc-20? whats going on?



its two months since i last posted on this forum and now when a came back,, we are still speculation FC-20 arrival.
i wonder why PAF is not saying anything about it??


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## hataf

arsalanaslam123 said:


> its two months since i last posted on this forum and now when a came back,, we are still speculation FC-20 arrival.
> i wonder why PAF is not saying anything about it??



defense deal do not complete in months it took yearssssssssssssss


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## farhan_9909

heard that J-10 price is 27Mn USD?

iif its true its very cheap..only french upgrade per aircraft cost was 32Mn..

jf-17 can compete with j-10A right now..and i am sure jf-17 with upgrade will be much better then j-10..

then why to buy j-10B why nt any other aircraft in small numbers
or even the j-11B,,

J-11B will be the best response to both MKI and MMRCA only..
j-10B cannot compete with MKI nor any Aircraft in MMRCA except Gripen


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## Peregrine

Hi^^
I dont think Pakistan has any plans to acquire J-10b any soon, and as for j-11 its twin engine so it doesn't suite PAF requirements. but its too immature to say J-10 b cannot compete with any jet in MMRCA or Mki because there is very little knowledge on it so far, however if it comes with a TVC engine & other advanced features it definitely will be better than a lot of them since the Americans have acknowledged them selves that it is more maneuverable than f-18


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## farhan_9909

Peregrine said:


> Hi^^
> I dont think Pakistan has any plans to acquire J-10b any soon, and as for j-11 its twin engine so it doesn't suite PAF requirements. but its too immature to say J-10 b cannot compete with any jet in MMRCA or Mki because there is very little knowledge on it so far, however if it comes with a TVC engine & other advanced features it definitely will be better than a lot of them since the Americans have acknowledged them selves that it is more maneuverable than f-18



Why it doesnt meet PAF(j-11)
yess j-10B will come with TVC bt jf-17 Engine with TTVC already tested on it few days back(ws-12)
actually i wanna say when jf-17 and j-10 are very much similar..
j-10 is better in payload bt after 100KN engine Jf-17 will also hav +5ton payload
with western avionics and AESA i am sure it will comparable to J-10B or i can say even better,,

what j-10B has only good radar and few more modication then j-10A


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## Peregrine

Hi^^ 
That is why PAF has no immediate plans to acquire J-10b, currently they are focused on JF-17. As for lack of interest in j-11 it has some thing to to with high maintenance being a twin engine jet


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## farhan_9909

its good..
j-10B similar to jf-17 next block.

jf-17 next block will be a true 4.5th generation fighter


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## AVIAN

farhan_9909 said:


> its good..
> j-10B similar to jf-17 next block.
> 
> jf-17 next block will be a true 4.5th generation fighter



Huh! how so JF-17's next block will be regarded as a 4.5th generation fighter jet? since to make something like that PAF need huge budget which it can ill afford as far as it is dependent upon Foriegn aid.


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## AVIAN

farhan_9909 said:


> Why it doesnt meet PAF(j-11)
> yess j-10B will come with TVC bt jf-17 Engine with TTVC already tested on it few days back(ws-12)
> actually i wanna say when jf-17 and j-10 are very much similar..
> j-10 is better in payload bt after 100KN engine Jf-17 will also hav +5ton payload
> with western avionics and AESA i am sure it will comparable to J-10B or i can say even better,,
> 
> what j-10B has only good radar and few more modication then j-10A



I would highly appreciate testing of TVC engine by China for JF-17 and J-10.


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## AVIAN

Peregrine said:


> Hi^^
> I dont think Pakistan has any plans to acquire J-10b any soon, and as for j-11 its twin engine so it doesn't suite PAF requirements. but its too immature to say J-10 b cannot compete with any jet in MMRCA or Mki because there is very little knowledge on it so far, however if it comes with a TVC engine & other advanced features it definitely will be better than a lot of them since the Americans have acknowledged them selves that it is more maneuverable than f-18



Your immaturity is unfortunetly is off course of highest order when you are saying that secretive J-10B can be compared to MKI else it will be immaturish, well Secret does become = At par, equal to MKI. 

As for Americans, yes they have admitted so but only it was their observation and nothing to get panic about it.


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## farhan_9909

AVIAN said:


> I would highly appreciate testing of TVC engine by China for JF-17 and J-10.



check jf-17 thread only few pages back

ws-12(TVC version) tested on jf-17

and about j-10B it is said it will be equipted with ws-10A
and we all know that ws-10A has TVC..


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## AVIAN

farhan_9909 said:


> check jf-17 thread only few pages back
> 
> ws-12(TVC version) tested on jf-17
> 
> and about j-10B it is said it will be equipted with ws-10A
> and we all know that ws-10A has TVC..



If this is the case then why does there isn't any formal declaration of the same from PAF or any other higher authorities. Please I would appreciate a link for that.


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## farhan_9909

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-3-a-122.html
'
news is in chineese bt translated ther..
ws-12 has TVC and is tested on jf-17..

ws-13 is without tvc bt 100KN


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## IceCold

AVIAN said:


> Huh! how so JF-17's next block will be regarded as a 4.5th generation fighter jet? since to make something like that PAF need huge budget which it can ill afford as far as it is dependent upon Foriegn aid.



You know what surprises me is Indians telling us about our budget constraints every now and then. How to do you think Pakistan came this far????? 
There are already planned upgrades after the induction of first 50 aircraft's and with those upgrades JF-17 will become a true 4.5 generation fighter jet.


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## Creder

F-18 is a 4.5 gen fighter, JF-17 will be lucky to become a half decent fighter with the next upgrades


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## farhan_9909

By france upgrade jf-17 will remain a 4th generation..because of rc-400 radar is nt AESA

and for 4,5th generation AESA is must..

look Su 30MKi is nt in 4.5th generation aircraft because of AESA


----------



## IceCold

farhan_9909 said:


> By france upgrade jf-17 will remain a 4th generation..because of rc-400 radar is nt AESA
> 
> and for 4,5th generation AESA is must..
> 
> look Su 30MKi is nt in 4.5th generation aircraft because of AESA



Do you realize that both eurofighter and rafale are considered 4.5th generation fighter jet and none have an AESA radar. On the other hand F-15, and F-18 are considered 4th generation fighter jets even though they are equipped with AESA radar.
Here is a list for your review:

List of fighter aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And by the way RC-400 isnt the only radar PAF is evaluating. The Chinese companies may very well come up with an AESA radar of their own for the second batch of JF-17s.


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## farhan_9909

IceCold said:


> Do you realize that both eurofighter and rafale are considered 4.5th generation fighter jet and none have an AESA radar. On the other hand F-15, and F-18 are considered 4th generation fighter jets even though they are equipped with AESA radar.
> Here is a list for your review:
> 
> List of fighter aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> And by the way RC-400 isnt the only radar PAF is evaluating. The Chinese companies may very well come up with an AESA radar of their own for the second batch of JF-17s.



again follow your own link..and check ther is written rafale/eurofighter AESa radar in development dats why they are in 4.5th generation aircraft
LCA was in 4.5th generation catagory bt few weeks back it was proved that LCA current radar is nt AESA bt simple Elta 20/32 and it is again iin 4th genrationa ircraft

So any aircraft having or are radar ordered or in developments are in 4.5th generation aircraft


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## TOPGUN

Man i don't understand this is a j-10 /fc-20 thread why talk about other things here ??


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## Kompromat

Guys keep the Thunder discussions to its related threads , Thanks.


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## IceCold

farhan_9909 said:


> *So any aircraft having or are radar ordered or in developments are in 4.5th generation aircraft*



Not really because radar although one of the important factor, isnt the only thing needed to turn a jet into a true 4.5th generation fighter jet.

Here it is what makes a jet a true 4.5th generation fighter jet:

4.5th generation jet fighters (1990s to the present)

The end of the Cold War in 1991 led many governments to significantly decrease military spending as a "peace dividend". Air force inventories were cut, and research and development programs intended to produce what was then anticipated to be "fifth-generation" fighters took serious hits; many programs were canceled during the first half of the 1990s, and those which survived were "stretched out". While the practice of slowing the pace of development reduces annual investment expenses, it comes at the penalty of increased overall program and unit costs over the long-term. In this instance, however, it also permitted designers to make use of the tremendous achievements being made in the fields of computers, avionics and other flight electronics, which had become possible largely due to the advances made in microchip and semiconductor technologies in the 1980s and 1990s. *This opportunity enabled designers to develop fourth-generation designs  or redesigns  with significantly enhanced capabilities. These improved designs have become known as "Generation 4.5" fighters*, recognizing their intermediate nature between the 4th and 5th generations, and their contribution in furthering development of individual fifth-generation technologies.


*The primary characteristics of this sub-generation are the application of advanced digital avionics and aerospace materials, modest signature reduction (primarily RF "stealth"), and highly integrated systems and weapons*. These fighters have been designed to operate in a "network-centric" battlefield environment and are principally multirole aircraft. *Key weapons technologies introduced include beyond-visual-range (BVR) AAMs; Global Positioning System (GPS)-guided weapons, solid-state phased-array radars; helmet-mounted sights; and improved secure, jamming-resistant datalinks. Thrust vectoring to further improve transient maneuvering capabilities have also been adopted by many 4.5th generation fighters, and uprated powerplants have enabled some designs to achieve a degree of "supercruise" ability. Stealth characteristics are focused primarily on frontal-aspect radar cross section (RCS) signature-reduction techniques including radar-absorbent materials (RAM), L-O coatings and limited shaping techniques*. 

"counter-measure systems and forward looking infrared.


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## Dark Angel

farhan_9909 said:


> again follow your own link..and check ther is written rafale/eurofighter AESa radar in development dats why they are in 4.5th generation aircraft
> LCA was in 4.5th generation catagory bt few weeks back it was proved that LCA current radar is nt AESA bt simple Elta 20/32 and it is again iin 4th genrationa ircraft
> 
> So any aircraft having or are radar ordered or in developments are in 4.5th generation aircraft





Couple of things dude SU30 Mki is 4.5 Gen having a AESA isnt the only criteria SU30MKI has a range of 350 Kms search in the front hemisphere and 60 km in the rear hemisphere The Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft 

LCA will have ELTA 2052 radar and it is still considered to be 4.5 gen because of Fly-by-wire control, it is equipped with a quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system to ease handling by the pilot

The Tejas has a night vision goggles (NVG)-compatible "glass cockpit" that is dominated by an indigenous head-up display (HUD), three 5 in x 5 in multi-function displays


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## Peregrine

Dark Angel said:


> Couple of things dude SU30 Mki is 4.5 Gen having a AESA isnt the only criteria SU30MKI has a range of 350 Kms search in the front hemisphere and 60 km in the rear hemisphere The Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft
> LCA will have ELTA 2052 radar and it is still considered to be 4.5 gen because of Fly-by-wire control, it is equipped with a quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system to ease handling by the pilot
> The Tejas has a night vision goggles (NVG)-compatible "glass cockpit" that is dominated by an indigenous head-up display (HUD), three 5 in x 5 in multi-function displays



Hi
And LCA will have super duper every thing but the fact that on paper when the real one will come we will see, BTW this is an FC-20 thread not come in here and boost about a paper plane thread


----------



## SomeGuy

Don't know if this vid has been posted before, but check out the turning ability between 1:05 and 1:13. That is a tight turn.

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## hataf

SomeGuy said:


> YouTube - J-10 Manoeuvrability
> 
> Don't know if this vid has been posted before, but check out the turning ability between 1:05 and 1:13. That is a tight turn.



aw-sum
really aw-sum
really really aw-sum 

no doubt more maneuverability than f-16

now i know why PAF is after fc-20

if some Chinese brother can put some translation of the conversation


----------



## S.U.R.B.

SomeGuy said:


> YouTube - J-10 Manoeuvrability
> 
> Don't know if this vid has been posted before, but check out the turning ability between 1:05 and 1:13. That is a tight turn.



well that 1:05 and 1:13 portion looks like a fast forward too me.....Isn't it?
Let's see if someone expert in this field puts some light on this.

J10 is awesome.It really looks like a dragon....


----------



## SomeGuy

S.U.R.B. said:


> well that 1:05 and 1:13 portion looks like a fast forward too me.....Isn't it?
> Let's see if someone expert in this field puts some light on this.
> 
> J10 is awesome.It really looks like a dragon....



Doesn't look fast forwarded at all, especially when you see it several times.
Also, fast forwading can't alter the fact that the turn was done in a really short amount of space.

When the indigenous WS-10 engine variant with Thrust Vector is inducted, it will become even more agile.

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## was




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## farhan_9909

can we put ws-15(180 Kn Thrust) in J-10B

in wiki it is written that Ws-15 will power j-10B..

if it is true then one ws-15 is equal to two engines of EF and Rafale


----------



## bc040400065

Does anyone know which PAF base will house these 2 sqds of FC20??


----------



## 592257001

hataf said:


> aw-sum
> really aw-sum
> really really aw-sum
> 
> no doubt more maneuverability than f-16
> 
> now i know why PAF is after fc-20
> 
> if some Chinese brother can put some translation of the conversation



This video was taken during practice run of the 60th anniversary of the PLAAF in northern China. The pilots basically demonstrated J-10A's basic maneuvers

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## 592257001

farhan_9909 said:


> Why it doesnt meet PAF(j-11)
> yess j-10B will come with TVC bt jf-17 Engine with TTVC already tested on it few days back(ws-12)
> actually i wanna say when jf-17 and j-10 are very much similar..
> j-10 is better in payload bt after 100KN engine Jf-17 will also hav +5ton payload
> with western avionics and AESA i am sure it will comparable to J-10B or i can say even better,,
> 
> what j-10B has only good radar and few more modication then j-10A



Jf-17 and J-10 are two totally different platform. It's the difference between a light fighter and a medium fighter. Jf-17's engine can never reach the thurst of J-10B, same for its payload


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## hataf

592257001 said:


> This video was taken during practice run of the 60th anniversary of the PLAAF in northern China. The pilots basically demonstrated J-10A's basic maneuvers





592257001 said:


> Jf-17 and J-10 are two totally different platform. It's the difference between a light fighter and a medium fighter. Jf-17's engine can never reach the thurst of J-10B, same for its payload



for second quote no doubt

if these are basic than what will be extensive???

man its aw-sum


----------



## farhan_9909

592257001 said:


> Jf-17 and J-10 are two totally different platform. It's the difference between a light fighter and a medium fighter. Jf-17's engine can never reach the thurst of J-10B, same for its payload



medium weight and light weight i knw
bt i am talking about jf-17 block II
J-10B will hav AESA and Jf-17 block II both
J-10B engine thrust will be 129Kn and jf-17 100KN
after greater use of composite jf-17 empty weight will be reduced and getting a 100Kn engine so its payload will also be increased..around 5ton and j-10B is 6ton
hard points will be increased to 9 of jf-17

J-10B wil be superior bt nt that much very little difference between jf-17 block II and j-10B

so personally i think PAF should go for j-11B or j-xx in future and keeep upgrading the jf-17 with high techs


----------



## hataf

farhan_9909 said:


> medium weight and light weight i knw
> bt i am talking about jf-17 block II
> J-10B will hav AESA and Jf-17 block II both
> J-10B engine thrust will be 129Kn and jf-17 100KN
> after greater use of composite jf-17 empty weight will be reduced and getting a 100Kn engine so its payload will also be increased..around 5ton and j-10B is 6ton
> hard points will be increased to 9 of jf-17
> 
> J-10B wil be superior bt nt that much very little difference between jf-17 block II and j-10B
> 
> so personally i think PAF should go for j-11B or j-xx in future and keeep upgrading the jf-17 with high techs



no matter what ever u put in Suzuki mehran(800cc) it can not compete Toyota corolla(200cc)

what ever you do with jf it can only carry max i mean max 4.5 ton of load now if you want to increase from that you need to increase the wing area and it increase drag so you need to put a more powerful engine for that u need to redesigned the engine bay

instead of making all these changes its better to develop a new aircraft

basically jf is a light weight aircraft and it will full its purpose very well. we just need a longer range radar on it and bvr missile with range in excess of 120km

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## Cent4

self delete


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## Cent4

guys i got these pics from internet i dont know weather they are posted before of not. just see the difference 

J-10


now see J-10b

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## pshamim

China had offered to Pakistan the J-10 for $40 million each. Pakistan has reportedly countered with a new offer of 25 million for each aircraft. 
Lets us see what price they agree on. This may very well be one of the reasons, PAF has delayed the acquisition.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Pshamim sir,
Wats ur opinion about the rumours reguarding the purchase of J10B with possiable TOT and much more in numbers then just 36?
Thanks in advance sir.


----------



## Luftwaffe

Looking at souped up fulcrum's price of $27-29 Million or $34 Million for su-30, J10B $40 Million is expensive.


----------



## Desertfalcon

luftwaffe said:


> Looking at souped up fulcrum's price of $27-29 Million or $34 Million for su-30, J10B $40 Million is expensive.


$40 Mil per? Wow! That is way more expensive than what I thought it would be. Something like a fulcrum with good avionics seems like a better deal. 

Have the Chinese had any other export customers for the J-10?


----------



## wangrong

luftwaffe said:


> Looking at souped up fulcrum's *price of $27-29 Million or $34 Million for su-30*, J10B $40 Million is expensive.



r you sure?


----------



## Kompromat

pshamim said:


> China had offered to Pakistan the J-10 for $40 million each. Pakistan has reportedly countered with a new offer of 25 million for each aircraft.
> Lets us see what price they agree on. This may very well be one of the reasons, PAF has delayed the acquisition.



Sir can you clear some confusion here please.

Are those jets J-10A or J-10B or something else?


----------



## zagahaga

j 10b is going to be good it has IRST i heard it can detect stealth fighters but to a minimum range of a couple of km


----------



## Luftwaffe

wangrong...did you read pshamim's post. 
If the approx price tag i stated are wrong do correct me.

with the upgraded avionics/twin engines fulcrum is being sold in the international market for the price tag I stated earlier while J-10B new single engine over priced yet to mature. 
pshamim needs to give us information although I am sure $25 million each is without weaponry.


----------



## ptldM3

zagahaga said:


> j 10b is going to be good it has IRST i heard it can detect stealth fighters but to a minimum range of a couple of km



What are the specs on the IRST?


----------



## TaimiKhan

ptldM3 said:


> What are the specs on the IRST?



Must be equal to or inferior to the Russian system specifications. 

Its said its based on the Russian OLS-31E system, and *may have* been upgraded and little bit better.


----------



## wangrong

luftwaffe said:


> wangrong...did you read pshamim's post.
> If the approx price tag i stated are wrong do correct me.



1&#12289;2009/12/15

vietnam *$48Million for su-30MK2V*







2&#12289;2010/02/23

malaysia *$53Million for su-30MKM*






3&#12289;2008/12/26

indonesia * $52Million for Su-30MK2*






4&#12289;

venezuela *$52Million for Su-30MKM*

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## wangrong



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## Jazzbot

nice pics wangrong


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## TaimiKhan

Wangrong, are the engines in these pictures AL-31 series or something else. 

As i remember having seen Su-27s and J-10s in afterburn with engine giving red flame, while saw a supposedly WS-10 engine during afterburn tests with blue flame giving out. 

Plus in this pic the engine nozzle seems to be open the way WS-10 has been shown as normally during take off the nozzle is more tighter, closed. 

Is this the WS-10 or the AL-31 series ???

A supposedly WS-10 engine during tests:


----------



## wangrong

TaimiKhan said:


> Wangrong, are the engines in these pictures AL-31 series or something else.



it is AL-31 







this is WS-10


----------



## wangrong

TaimiKhan said:


> As i remember having seen Su-27s and J-10s in afterburn with engine giving red flame



J11A with AL31


----------



## aimarraul

the nozzle of ws-10a is shorter ,useing different materials ,so the color is different.

http://a.imagehost.org/view/0945/1001032055742a843386a7617e

http://a.imagehost.org/view/0933/100103205561871a513c28712e

the flame is red because it turn on the afterburner

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## sancho

wangrong said:


> r you sure?





> *Myanmar to buy 20 MiG-29 fighters for $570 mln*
> 
> A 400 million-euro ($570 mln) contract has been signed for the delivery of Russian MiG-29 fighters for the Myanmar Air Force, a source close to Russia's arms export monopoly told a business daily on Wednesday.
> 
> Vedomosti quoted the source at Rosoboronexport as saying the Russian bid to supply MiG-29 Fulcrum-D carrier-based fighter jets beat China's offer to sell its latest J-10 and FC-1 fighters...



Myanmar to buy 20 MiG-29 fighters for $570 mln - paper | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire


$570 million by 20 fighters, means 28.5 million each, but we are talking about Mig 29 D here. The Mig 29K for IN costs $46 million each so we can expect normal SMT versions for the air force possibly around $35 million each.

J10 was offered for Myanmar Air Force at $ 41 million each!


----------



## wangrong

sancho said:


> Myanmar to buy 20 MiG-29 fighters for $570 mln - paper | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire
> 
> *J10 was offered for Myanmar Air Force at $ 41 million each*!



fake news

J10+*AL31* VS MIg29?


----------



## Desertfalcon

Sancho said:


> J10 was offered for Myanmar Air Force at $ 41 million each!



That price still really surprises me. What is the average unit cost of Grippen? Can't be much more than that and I would think the J39 is better, but I think the true capabilities of the J10 is still unknown by comparison.


----------



## gowthamraj

Desertfalcon said:


> That price still really surprises me. What is the average unit cost of Grippen? Can't be much more than that and I would think the J39 is better, but I think the true capabilities of the J10 is still unknown by comparison.



sir the cost of gripen is between 50 to 60 million without VAT . in my personal view china taking time to introduce its j-10 in international shows and market.


But it true that they eagerly waiting to display their meacine worldwide like what US did

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## zeeshe100

Nice Aircraft love it .......


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## Luftwaffe

This makes J-10A/B still expensive against mig-29er and su-30 standard version that costs around $34/35 Million dollars


----------



## Sanchez

TaimiKhan said:


> Must be equal to or inferior to the Russian system specifications.
> 
> Its said its based on the Russian OLS-31E system, and *may have* been upgraded and little bit better.



30% better or 50+kms shown from an exhibition material 2-3 years ago.

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## Sanchez

J-11B costs more than 50m USD.


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## Kompromat




----------



## wangrong

http://www.calf.cn/attachments/day_100529/20100529_d41c3358f3c788274284bl67jDyuczCr.jpg

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## Stealth

good! ...


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

wangrong said:


> http://www.calf.cn/attachments/day_100529/20100529_d41c3358f3c788274284bl67jDyuczCr.jpg



after watching this angle,im doubtful about J10s TVC.
there isn't much space b/w tail chute and TVC nozzle,then how it can move around.??

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## sancho

danger-zone said:


> after watching this angle,im doubtful about J10s TVC.
> there isn't much space b/w tail chute and TVC nozzle,then how it can move around.??



Interesting point, but that is J10A with AL 31 engine, found this pic of J10B and the engine nozzels looks different here. 






The gap between them and the chute is bigger too, still not enough space, but that's also no TVC version.


----------



## zagahaga

there no TVC but they made up with canards which is a subsitute for TVC and TVC dont need to be 3D TVC there also 2D TVC used on su 30 f 16 f 35 and many other


----------



## TaimiKhan

sancho said:


> Interesting point, but that is J10A with AL 31 engine, found this pic of J10B and the engine nozzels looks different here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The gap between them and the chute is bigger too, still not enough space, but that's also no TVC version.



The engines and nozzles on both versions are same. 

The change in nozzle which you are seeing in the J-10B is due to the movement done in the nozzle mostly when the engine goes into after burner stage or during take off. 

See videos of F-16s or Sukhois during take off, their engine nozzle change.

here watch this video and see how the nozzle changes:


----------



## sancho

zagahaga said:


> there no TVC but they made up with canards which is a subsitute for TVC and TVC dont need to be 3D TVC there also *2D TVC used on su 30 f 16 f 35 and many other*


But these also move upwards, at J10 this seems ot to be possible.



TaimiKhan said:


> The engines and nozzles on both versions are same.
> 
> The change in nozzle which you are seeing in the J-10B is due to the movement done in the nozzle mostly when the engine goes into after burner stage or during take off.



Might be true, but the nozzels clearly look different, more like in post 2499 on the last page.


----------



## Sanchez

The use of TVC on J-10 isn't really much needed. The fighter has superior maneuverability, turn rates and agility. Addition of TVC will create overlaps on the advantages of canards and require a lot more thrust but only bring goodies for showing low speed aerobatic capability-- something similar to that of MKI.

J-10 still has an engine issue. AL-31FN is a little under powered for J-10A, needless to say J-10B. China has paid Russians on the development of Al-31FM series. But the Al-31FM2 (14200kg thrust) is not yet ready. On the Chinese side WS-10A (13200kg) or a modified WS-10A (14000kg) will need time to mature, too.

Chinese TVC may first be seen on J-xx.

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## Tiger Awan

Black Blood said:


>



check the nozzle on the bottom of right page

it resembles this one


wangrong said:


>



not this one



sancho said:


>


----------



## TaimiKhan

Guys, the nozzle changes with thrust, its controlled by the pilot either or its auto as per thrust setting:

here see this one:






On the net you will find J-10s pics with wide open nozzle, as well as close nozzles.


----------



## TaimiKhan

sancho said:


> Interesting point, but that is J10A with AL 31 engine, found this pic of J10B and the engine nozzels looks different here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The gap between them and the chute is bigger too, still not enough space, but that's also no TVC version.



Now compare this one with the above one:


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Sanchez said:


> The use of TVC on J-10 isn't really much needed. The fighter has superior maneuverability, turn rates and agility. Addition of TVC will create overlaps on the advantages of canards and require a lot more thrust but only bring goodies for showing low speed aerobatic capability-- something similar to that of MKI.
> 
> J-10 still has an engine issue. AL-31FN is a little under powered for J-10A, needless to say J-10B. China has paid Russians on the development of Al-31FM series. But the Al-31FM2 (14200kg thrust) is not yet ready. On the Chinese side WS-10A (13200kg) or a modified WS-10A (14000kg) will need time to mature, too.
> 
> Chinese TVC may first be seen on J-xx.



u made my day bro.....
using TVC only for low speed maneuvers will never create any problem.because at low thrust rate,nozzle of jet engine contracts and become like this 





but do not open completely.hence wide area is provided for the movement of thrust vectoring nozzle.

i was considering J10 that it performs maneuvers using TVC with fully after burn  and u guys have seen in above video,at full afterburn engine nozzle opens completely.
thanx to *taimikhan* and *Sanchez*

but guys i have seen a separate joy-stick containing yellow buttons in J10 cockpit,i think thats use for TVC.


----------



## Luftwaffe

purpose to post it some people on the internet think J-10B is too ugly. 
FC-20/J-10B Looks good.





EF-2000


----------



## wangrong

@taimikhan

blue flame (ws-10)

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## DaRk WaVe

whats the status of SD-10 BVRAAM, have there been live firings of SD-10 from J-10, I havent been able to find anything substantial & detailed about SD-10


----------



## Sanchez

EmO GiRl said:


> whats the status of SD-10 BVRAAM, have there been live firings of SD-10 from J-10, I havent been able to find anything substantial & detailed about SD-10



There have been two modifications on SD-10 in recent years. The first modified variant is coded as SD-10A and PL-12A. You may be able to get an image of the PL-12a with google. The second modification finished last year, including a totally different guidance system and extended range. In Chinese it's a Pl-12G. It's now being inducted to PLAAF. Pl-12G firing tests were said to be successful but the firing platform was not specified.

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## TaimiKhan

wangrong said:


> @taimikhan
> 
> blue flame (ws-10)



Thanks, so it would mean that WS-10 and AL-31s both have the blue flames. As i remember having seen red flaming engine on Su-27s. 

Or is the red and blue flame natural and any engine can have any of the color as exhaust ???


----------



## wangrong



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## hataf

can't see your images


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## wangrong



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## Kompromat

^ CFT's ??


----------



## bc040400065

Whats this J10X??? vertical stabilizers??


----------



## TaimiKhan

bc040400065 said:


> Whats this J10X??? vertical stabilizers??



Nops, it has canards, but it seems it is a twin tail design.


----------



## zeeshe100

&#9474;&#65279;&#65279;&#65279;&#65279; _______
[&#9608;&#9608;PAKISTAN&#9608;&#9608;&#9608;]&#9604;&#9604;&#9604;&#9604;&#9604;&#9604;&#9604;&#9604;&#9604;&#9604;
&#9604;&#9605;&#9608;&#65279;ZINDABAD&#9608;&#9605;&#9604;&#9603;&#9602;
I&#9608;&#9608;&#9608;&#9608;&#9608;&#9608;&#9608;&#9608;&#9608;&#9608;&#9608;&#9608;&#9608;&#9608;&#9608;&#9608;&#9608;&#9608;&#9608;]
...&#9701;&#8857;&#9650;&#8857;&#9650;&#8857;&#9650;&#8857;&#9650;&#8857;&#9650;&#8857;&#9650;&#8857;&#9700;


----------



## sancho

TaimiKhan said:


> Nops, it has canards, but it seems it is a twin tail design.



Still single, or possibly twin engined? With 2 engines and the J10B air intake changes it would be a great fighter.


----------



## bc040400065

TaimiKhan said:


> Nops, it has canards, but it seems it is a twin tail design.



Ok thanks. It looks like chinese are wokring on more than one J10 upgrade version. one more question. FC20 has refueling probe. i read some where that this increases the RCS. am i right?
and also does anyone know the RCS of J10 or J10B/FC20?


----------



## farhan_9909

well the j-10X look twin engine to me...


----------



## wangrong

sancho said:


> Still single, or possibly twin engined? With 2 engines and the J10B air intake changes it would be a great fighter.

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## wangrong



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## IceCold

wangrong said:


>



If this is going to 4th generation Chinese stealth jet, its one hell of a mean looking machine. I suppose Chinese have two parallel stealth projects running and the other one is a single engine. Are there any computer generated images for it as well?


----------



## Adios Amigo



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## a1b2c145

IceCold said:


> If this is going to 4th generation Chinese stealth jet, its one hell of a mean looking machine. I suppose Chinese have two parallel stealth projects running and the other one is a single engine. Are there any computer generated images for it as well?



http://military.china.com/zh_cn/bbs2/11053806/20100603/15964084.html


----------



## TaimiKhan

Thanks to aimarraul, this pic is of a J-10, behind the cockpit see the 1033 on the yellow tail, meaning it is the 3rd prototype of the J-10B as the first prototype was designated 1031. 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...ty-forces-combat-training-100.html#post912484

So it means J-10B is on track and with 3rd prototype in the air, it may be soon coming of age and entering service. Most probably by end of next year we may see operational ones being inducted. 


http://a.imagehost.org/view/0430/hkzs100705

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## SBD-3

I would appreciate this but humbly speaking...this is too unconventional...I mean If China is going its own way (developing a unique design) then I think it is considerably far that we would see such a design (not underrating Chinese).Stealth AC is altogether a different beast and China knows it....I Think Chinese 1st preference should be maturing 4.5thG tech so that it may gradually move towards 5th gen like US and (possibly) Russia....


----------



## Speeder 2

hasnain0099 said:


> I would appreciate this but humbly speaking...this is too unconventional...I mean If China is going its own way (developing a unique design) then I think it is considerably far that we would see such a design (not underrating Chinese).Stealth AC is altogether a different beast and China knows it....*I Think Chinese 1st preference should be maturing 4.5thG tech so that it may gradually move towards 5th gen like US and (possibly) Russia....*




*"No, No, Mav, you can't do this..." *




*"Sorry Goose, it's time to bust the Tower"*


----------



## ptldM3

Speeder 2 said:


> *"No, No, Mav, you can't do this..." *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"Sorry Goose, it's time to bust the Tower"*



I'm pretty sure Maverick said 'buzz' the tower, not bust

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## applesauce

hasnain0099 said:


> I would appreciate this but humbly speaking...this is too unconventional...I mean If China is going its own way (developing a unique design) then I think it is considerably far that we would see such a design (not underrating Chinese).Stealth AC is altogether a different beast and China knows it....I Think Chinese 1st preference should be maturing 4.5thG tech so that it may gradually move towards 5th gen like US and (possibly) Russia....



it appears that the CG design is based on the darksword? uav which is shown before


----------



## Speeder 2

ptldM3 said:


> I'm pretty sure Maverick said 'buzz' the tower, not bust



Mav got no live ammo, but we do. You stink, Cougar.


----------



## SBD-3

applesauce said:


> it appears that the CG design is based on the darksword? uav which is shown before



but still UAVs are not ment to be Fighters. a UAV design may result into a good fighter cuz requirements are altogather different


----------



## applesauce

hasnain0099 said:


> but still UAVs are not ment to be Fighters. a UAV design may result into a good fighter cuz requirements are altogather different



i understand this but im just saying thats appears to be where the CG is based on and people figure the uav was meant to be stealthy...so....


----------



## Sanchez

J10 Q performer

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## sancho

Hi, does anybody know a web site about J10, maybe from the official manufacturer, or privat that gives more infos about it and its development?


----------



## applesauce

sancho said:


> Hi, does anybody know a web site about J10, maybe from the official manufacturer, or privat that gives more infos about it and its development?



you can check out their website ³É¶¼·É»ú¹¤Òµ£¨¼¯ÍÅ£©ÓÐÏÞÔðÈÎ¹«Ë¾ its in chinese and i doubt you'll find anything we dont already know


----------



## a1b2c145



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## a1b2c145



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## sohailpk

thanks to share


----------



## hataf

a1b2c145 said:


>





a1b2c145 said:


> helicopter driver



can't see your pics


----------



## Romahiz

Still unable to see the Pics


----------



## Adios Amigo

J-10B- 03 i.e Third Prototype. Point to note is, the pitot tube being removed from the nose tip.


----------



## hataf

adeos amigo said:


> J-10B- 03 i.e Third Prototype. Point to note is, the pitot tube being removed from the nose tip.



man i have seen this picture 4 to 6 minth ago

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## Mughal-Prince

wangrong said:


> @taimikhan
> 
> blue flame (ws-10)



Well a little curious about the color of flame ... blue color flame is more heat radiating then red-sh-orange or yellow color flame ... it means it is a little more vulnerable to a heat seeking missile ???


----------



## razgriz19



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## hataf

princeiftikharmirza said:


> Well a little curious about the color of flame ... blue color flame is more heat radiating then red-sh-orange or yellow color flame ... it means it is a little more vulnerable to a heat seeking missile ???



does color of exhaust also matter on the material used in engine???


----------



## razgriz19

i think colour of the flames indicate the temprature..
blue being the hottest and orange-yellow not so hot..

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## a1b2c145

i found many FC-20, share with you and download them if you like, best wishes~~~~~~~~~~~

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## a1b2c145

i don't know whether you have them, so i posted them again

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## a1b2c145



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## SBD-3

these are J-10 brother according to some sources FC-20 will be J-10B with western components


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## SBD-3




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## a1b2c145

hasnain0099 said:


>



can't see you pictures


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## Romahiz

Nice Pic's but my question is that will Pakistan getting these beauties like FC-1 JF-17 Thunder a joint project between Chengdu and PAC.
Tomorrow got the news from Waqt News that pakistan getting 18 F-16 from America Next week and as per my opinion they are getting these planes like black box so getting FC-20 is better then getting aging F-16 there was a time that F-16 was a pride of Pakistan but now ppl lote more talking about JF-17 if Pakistan get FC-20 i think they will be easy to maintain as this will be a technology transfer and may be Pakistan can sale these planes to other countries


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## applesauce

Romahiz said:


> Nice Pic's but my question is that will Pakistan getting these beauties like FC-1 JF-17 Thunder a joint project between Chengdu and PAC.
> Tomorrow got the news from Waqt News that pakistan getting 18 F-16 from America Next week and as per my opinion they are getting these planes like black box so getting FC-20 is better then getting aging F-16 there was a time that F-16 was a pride of Pakistan but now ppl lote more talking about JF-17 if Pakistan get FC-20 i think they will be easy to maintain as this will be a technology transfer and may be Pakistan can sale these planes to other countries



pakistani is not a partner in the development of the j-10 and even now the engines are russian with the chinese version only now coming online. thus even with TOT i dont see pakistan being allow nor capable of selling j-10s to other nations plus pakistan will have its hands full with jf-17 anyways


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## flanker143

> Nice Pic's but my question is that will Pakistan getting these beauties like FC-1 JF-17 Thunder a joint project between Chengdu and PAC.
> Tomorrow got the news from Waqt News that pakistan getting 18 F-16 from America Next week and as per my opinion they are getting these planes like black box so getting FC-20 is better then getting aging F-16 there was a time that F-16 was a pride of Pakistan but now ppl lote more talking about JF-17 if Pakistan get FC-20 i think they will be easy to maintain as this will be a technology transfer and may be Pakistan can sale these planes to other countries



you can't sell jets once u get tot......are u for real !!!


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## SBD-3

a1b2c145 said:


> can't see you pictures



http://www.chnqiang.com/uploadfile/article/uploadfile/201006/20100624031339492.jpg


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## Mughal-Prince

razgriz19 said:


> i think colour of the flames indicate the temprature..
> blue being the hottest and orange-yellow not so hot..



Hmm does it means bigger IR Signature ??? which is not good


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Sanchez said:


> J10 Q performer
> 
> YouTube - 2009Q???J10????



That is a cute plane


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## Kompromat

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> J10B can only be compared to F16 delta wing
> 
> The Israel plane was just stolen design for F16XL




According to my sources Israel sold Drum packed Lavi project to China.


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## xkasx

This is |Funny lol

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## wangrong

---------- Post added at 11:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:26 PM ----------







---------- Post added at 11:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 PM ----------

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## hataf

wangrong said:


> ---------- Post added at 11:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:26 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 PM ----------



aw-sum picks

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## SBD-3

princeiftikharmirza said:


> Hmm does it means bigger IR Signature ??? which is not good


dont worry imo blue flame means use of gaseous fuel (greater methane and ethane) while yellow flame is a result of high carbon fuel used

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## hataf

hasnain0099 said:


> dont worry imo blue flame means use of gaseous fuel (greater methane and ethane) while yellow flame is a result of high carbon fuel used



thanks for clarification's


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## Luftwaffe

From the angle the F-16 pic looks more like the japanese F-2.


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## Nishan_101

I think PAF might want to induct about 150 J-10B, I still don't know whether it si twin seat aircraft or has a single seater version but in my opinion if the economy pakistan has take some sort of pick due to any revolution then i think PAF might just go for about 100+ J-10B and may be investing 25&#37; in chinese 5th Gen. Fighter and procure about 100+ J-XX and may be another 50-80 J-XX to replace F-16s in future. these will include 200 JF-17 single seater.


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## Nishan_101

Was it posiible for PAF to signed a deal with Pratt & Witteny Canada to supply or give licence production of its engines to PAC for J-10 about 50+ for getting 50 J-10 and J-10S. And now for J-10B we could get the WS-10A on our second version about 100 jets. And try to refuse the 18 Blk-52 deal and just try to get our 24 F-16s with upgrade along with 32 F-16s in service.


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## nangyale

Nishan_101 said:


> Was it posiible for PAF to signed a deal with Pratt & Witteny Canada to supply or give licence production of its engines to PAC for J-10 about 50+ for getting 50 J-10 and J-10S. And now for J-10B we could get the WS-10A on our second version about 100 jets. And try to refuse the 18 Blk-52 deal and just try to get our 24 F-16s with upgrade along with 32 F-16s in service.



The simple answer is no. America would never allow any of its defence companies to do business with China, even through third parties. FC-20 is still a work in progress and hopefully by the mid of this decade it would be inducted in PAF. But in its current configuration as J-10 its not as capable as F-16 block 52. So again we are better off with the deal to buy f-16s.


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## Nishan_101

nangyale said:


> The simple answer is no. America would never allow any of its defence companies to do business with China, even through third parties. FC-20 is still a work in progress and hopefully by the mid of this decade it would be inducted in PAF. But in its current configuration as J-10 its not as capable as F-16 block 52. So again we are better off with the deal to buy f-16s.



Man you might be right but i am saying Pratt & Witteny engines for PAFs J-10s not for chinese. Ok by the way you might be right because they have an agreement on F-16s engine supply to U.S.
But one thing that GOP might have done which is that they should have deal with French like for licence Prodution of about 200 - 250 Mirages and may be with the U.S to buy F-16s like 71(to make our fleet complete with 110 F-16s Blk-15) that has been ordered. This could happen if our GOP has shown keen interest in that matter.
And by the time we could join with the E.U like France/U.K/Italy in Avionics development so it could benefit in future upgrades as well as for K-8 and JF-17 prorammes.


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## Mani2020

> *Nishan_101*





> Man you might be right but i am saying Pratt & Witteny engines for PAFs J-10s not for chinese


Using Americans engine will mean again dependence on US technology which no one wants as no one have forgot the embargoed imposed on us in 80's. Secondly going for US engines will not serve our purpose of going indigenous and in case of embargo US will stop the supply of parts for the engines and our j-10's will also be sitting dicks along with f-16's which we never want in any case




> But one thing that GOP might have done which is that they should have deal with French like for licence Prodution of about 200 - 250 Mirages


Mirage is an old aircraft now,many airforces are on the verge of retiring them also the production lines of mirage are closed ,
why would you like to have a stock of 4th generation fighters when world has 4.5 generation and rapidly moving to fifth generation
Also we have f-16 and jf-17 which are almost similar to mirage


> and may be with the U.S to buy F-16s like 71(to make our fleet complete with 110 F-16s Blk-15) that has been ordered


It is already stated that our f-16's fleet will be somewhere around 100 as PAF always wanted to have them in such numbers



> And by the time we could join with the E.U like France/U.K/Italy in Avionics development so it could benefit in future upgrades as well as for K-8 and JF-17 prorammes


We are already negotiating for french avionics for jf-17 and Italy has been a reliable supplier so far as they have supplied us with Grifo series of radars for local production and we have also purchased spada-2000 ADS.Plus Vixen AESA radar is also on offer to PAF


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## AVIAN

Mani2020 said:


> .
> It is already stated that our f-16's fleet will be somewhere around 100 as PAF always wanted to have them in such numbers
> 
> *And by the time we could join with the E.U like France/U.K/Italy in Avionics development so it could benefit in future upgrades as well as for K-8 and JF-17 prorammes*
> 
> We are already negotiating for french avionics for jf-17 and Italy has been a reliable supplier so far as they have supplied us with Grifo series of radars for local production and we have also purchased spada-2000 ADS.Plus Vixen AESA radar is also on offer to PAF



100 F-16 on order for PAF, since when? I simply cannot believe that. When such thing ever happened, because US provided F-16 are specifically assigned to fight war on terror. Regarding future upgrades for K-8 and JF-17, I don't think it would be any big deal given Pakistan's inability to fight both Budget and Diplomatic pressure at once.


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## Mani2020

AVIAN said:


> 100 F-16 on order for PAF, since when? I simply cannot believe that. When such thing ever happened, because US provided F-16 are specifically assigned to fight war on terror. Regarding future upgrades for K-8 and JF-17, I don't think it would be any big deal given Pakistan's inability to fight both Budget and Diplomatic pressure at once.



I never said that 100 are on order ,i said PAF always wanted to have a fleet of 100 f-16's,and we will have 100 of them 

Do mathematics

we have currently 46 f-16 A/B and 3 F-16 c/d which makes it to 48,15 more f-16 c/d will arrive in this year making them to reach a total of 63, 14 more f-16's are under negotiations,probably be delivered in during next year which will make the fleet to rise to 77 and there are also negotiations of getting more used f-16's under EDA or f-16's which were embargoed and are under USN use to maintain total fleet of 100

All the used and old f-16's will go MLU,to make them on par with f-16 block 52


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## AVIAN

Mani2020 said:


> I never said that 100 are on order ,i said PAF always wanted to have a fleet of 100 f-16's,and we will have 100 of them
> 
> Do mathematics
> 
> we have currently 46 f-16 A/B and 3 F-16 c/d which makes it to 48,15 more f-16 c/d will arrive in this year making them to reach a total of 63, 14 more f-16's are under negotiations,probably be delivered in during next year which will make the fleet to rise to 77 and there are also negotiation of getting more used f-16's under EDA or f-16's which were embargoed and are under USN use to make a total fleet of 100



Once against do the mathematics, because given PAF's preference for some advanced generation F-16s in the catagory of Block 52, it would be really hard pressed to bring used F-16's to make up for century mark.


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## Mani2020

AVIAN said:


> Once against do the mathematics, because given PAF's preference for some advanced generation F-16s in the catagory of Block 52, it would be really hard pressed to bring used F-16's to make up for century mark.



Why is it so hard to digest,I am already pissed awf by repeating same stuff again n again.Check out the "PAF f-16 MLU thread" you will get your answer.You will find a list of things included in MLU including structural upgrades etc

this is not a right thread to discuss f-16's


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Mani2020 said:


> I never said that 100 are on order ,i said PAF always wanted to have a fleet of 100 f-16's,and we will have 100 of them
> 
> Do mathematics
> 
> we have currently 46 f-16 A/B and 3 F-16 c/d which makes it to 48,15 more f-16 c/d will arrive in this year making them to reach a total of 63, *14 more f-16's are under negotiations*,probably be delivered in during next year which will make the fleet to rise to 77 and* there are also negotiations of getting more used f-16's *under EDA or f-16's which were embargoed and are under USN use to maintain total fleet of 100
> 
> All the used and old f-16's will go MLU,to make them on par with f-16 block 52



Brother its 14-18 F-16 BLK 52s under negotiations as per chief of airforce and we WILL be recieving 26 F-16s tht were embargoed in 90s... as per vice chief of staff.... thts more then 100 F-16s MLU n BLK 52.

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## AVIAN

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Brother its 14-18 F-16 BLK 52s under negotiations as per chief of airforce and we WILL be recieving 26 F-16s tht were embargoed in 90s... as per vice chief of staff.... thts more then 100 F-16s MLU n BLK 52.



I am not able to figure out how does you manage to make up for 100 Block 52 in one stroke.


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## Mani2020

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Brother its 14-18 F-16 BLK 52s under negotiations as per chief of airforce and we WILL be recieving 26 F-16s tht were embargoed in 90s... as per vice chief of staff.... thts more then 100 F-16s MLU n BLK 52.



*Thanks for correction*,
actually there is always so much complication when it comes to f-16 deals


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## MenOfHonor

arsalanaslam123 said:


> you m=ight be right on this but you know it is all about the system gets matured and in evoloved as the time passes!
> the F16 blk52 are on par wiht the FC20 deeloped now and the first blk of F16s were not even a match for the JF17,
> you know, the F16 programme is a real inspiration for me, the way it have evolved from its block turning it into a new generation fighter aircraft! i hope the same is possible for the JF17, it have good market potential, and have the potential of heavy upgrades! this is what make the JF17 a very potent aircraft!
> we may end up with more JF17 if the project matures nicely and upgradations are done wisely!
> anyhow at the time, it seems that your idea of 250 JF and some more FC20 is the call of the day!
> 
> regards!



well i just dont understand the block system an why they are taking so long to upgrade. its a fully matured frame on paper, an currently produced an flying. why dont the PAF get all the latest tech avonics, radar, laser guide infra red, engine an what ever latest is out there for once and stack it on the god damn plane. i can understand upgrade but if they are going to add 1 new thing every year then we can wait for 10 years or so before the plane really matures, by that time jf17 will have the same level as A5. at least the current new ones should be produced at par with f16 block 52 in terms of technology. instead of producing 250 fighters by 2015 they should focus on producing 200 but top quality fighters.

I have started to notice a pattern pak arm forces are showing a bit of laziness, sorry to say, as we want all this TOT on weapons but we dont create our own. we have agosta 90 TOT, by now pak navy should have had 6 agosta 90, i dont care about reasons or excuses why they are not making, as they have the money an the means to do it. same goes with f22P, we are making one right now, we should have 4 more already planned for the future an ground work should already be started on them. 

same goes with g3 rifle well the army has been using it an producing it for 30 years, they should get few gun smiths, engineers an designers together, look at whats the new materials are in the market an create a new weapon some thing not as heavy as g3, all weather an environment, light weight, accurate with a strong punch. in 30 years they have not thought of stop copying the same rifle an creating a new weapon for the army , yet they think pk8 is a great rifle its just a copy of hk33 its nothing new... just spending lots of money is not everything some time one needs to spend money creatively as well. they should hire people or create depts who job is to only work on new weapons designs an creativity, the reason the west is ahead or usa is ahead in weapons an every thing is because they truely spend money on research recognise education an talent and dont dont give jobs to their nephew or uncle or chacha who doesent have a clue what he is suppose to do. etc etc


----------



## Luftwaffe

You should really surf up good on all the thread of interests..


----------



## SIgnupful

is there any possibe way that pakistan air force will acquire f-16 block 60 or J-11..


----------



## SIgnupful

is there any possibe way that pakistan air force will acquire f-16 block 60 or J-11.. people saying that pakistan GDP and thier defence budget will not allow them to purchase f-16 block 60 or j-11..
after indian Mrca deal pakistan have to do something better for PAF i think


----------



## Areesh

AVIAN said:


> I am not able to figure out how does you manage to make up for *100 Block 52* in one stroke.



He said 100 F-16 Blk52/MLU's. It is simple mathematics I guess.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

@AVIAN

46 present F-16s (gelling MLU) 26 more F-16(embargoed in 90s),18 new BLK 52s and 14-18 more F-16 Blk 52s comming =???
Common sense is somethin isnt it


----------



## zagahaga

STOP this soo called fake news look at the f16 thread there


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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

SIgnupful said:


> is there any possibe way that pakistan air force will acquire f-16 block 60 or J-11..



Even the USA doesn't have block 60... as for J-11, the basic J-11 is just Su-27SK made in China, why want that old design? 

J-11B is indigenous, but i think there are barriers - for one, the Russian won't be too pleased, J-11B used domestically in China is one thing, exporting it (with or without ToT) would creating even more political pressures. Of course there are going to be 10-fold increase for Indian members protesting on the forum, but if we can get the Russia's concern cleared, then other voices are irrelevant. There shouldn't be any obstacles on Chinese side, just a matter of how much aircraft they can produce...

Only one other thing, does Pakistan really need J-11B heavy fighter? Look at the need first, don't buy a 50in TV for a room when 42in will suffice.

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## nangyale

Ibr0kEmYrAz0r said:


> Even the USA doesn't have block 60... as for J-11, the basic J-11 is just Su-27SK made in China, why want that old design?
> 
> J-11B is indigenous, but i think there are barriers - for one, the Russian won't be too pleased, J-11B used domestically in China is one thing, exporting it (with or without ToT) would creating even more political pressures. Of course there are going to be 10-fold increase for Indian members protesting on the forum, but if we can get the Russia's concern cleared, then other voices are irrelevant. There shouldn't be any obstacles on Chinese side, just a matter of how much aircraft they can produce...
> 
> Only one other thing, does Pakistan really need J-11B heavy fighter? Look at the need first, don't buy a 50in TV for a room when 42in will suffice.



Well said. I dont understand this facination with all things big. J-11b is good for China. They have a huge area to cover and it does the job. For Pakistan we dont need a heavy fighter thats apart from the problems associated with J-11s russian origin.
As far block 60 its way too expensive and so outside our budget. In the current situation block 52 is good enough. We can gain experience with it and thus put up more suggestions for FC-20. 
thus we would a competitive fighter hopefully with AESA radar and all the latest goodies and we would be able to buy it in numbers. 
by the time America gets kicked out of Afghanistan we wouldnt be needing their f-16s anymore.

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## SBD-3

Ibr0kEmYrAz0r said:


> Even the USA doesn't have block 60... as for J-11, the basic J-11 is just Su-27SK made in China, why want that old design?
> 
> J-11B is indigenous, but i think there are barriers - for one, the Russian won't be too pleased, J-11B used domestically in China is one thing, exporting it (with or without ToT) would creating even more political pressures. Of course there are going to be 10-fold increase for Indian members protesting on the forum, but if we can get the Russia's concern cleared, then other voices are irrelevant. There shouldn't be any obstacles on Chinese side, just a matter of how much aircraft they can produce...
> 
> Only one other thing, does Pakistan really need J-11B heavy fighter? Look at the need first, don't buy a 50in TV for a room when 42in will suffice.



I credit this "desire" for J-11B more attributable to Indian posters admiring their MKI rather than Pakistani senior posters...The major source of inspiration is being Twin engine AC rather than the AC which fits in PAF's role...anyways nice reply....but I tell you one thing....let 3 or 4 pages pass and you ll be confronting with the same question again....


----------



## Indestructible

Isn't the development stage of J-10B taking too long  ? Are they integrating some 5th generation equipment like the French have done in Rafale? It's price will shoot up then  Whaddya guys say?

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## sopc_dsp

new j10B
what's new? look.
---------
yes, it's new pics at 7.2010
&#35874;&#35874; deyidanran2009
http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/htm_data/27/1007/262850.html
-------

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## sopc_dsp

yes, it's new pics at 7.2010
&#35874;&#35874; deyidanran2009
http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/htm_data/27/1007/262850.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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## sopc_dsp

can anyone tell me what's different


----------



## rAli

superb Pics, thanks for posting.

I see IFR thats being added and pitot tube removed, other then that i don't see any external changes. . Is it a new prototype? Where was this picture taken, CAC? I have counted 11 new J-10A/B in the pic. The production rate is phenomenal.


----------



## sopc_dsp

at end of this year, this type J10B will join PLAAF, ............. ,

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## Peregrine

Hi,
its a good looking jet . Thanks for new pics


----------



## SBD-3

sopc_dsp said:


> can anyone tell me what's different



I think the colour scheme indicates its no more a prototype (absence of Yellow and silver scheme)...in PLAAF colours so I think it has probably entered into service!.....OMG!!!!!.......


----------



## TaimiKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> I think the colour scheme indicates its no more a prototype (absence of Yellow and silver scheme)...in PLAAF colours so I think it has probably entered into service!.....OMG!!!!!.......



Not yet inducted, still going under testing.


----------



## Manticore

looks like j10b prototypes in the distant warehouse of the pics


----------



## marcos98




----------



## Super Falcon

want to see them immediatley in paf fleet more than 50 needed in first batch or tranche 36 wont be enough atleast 150 hi tech jets needed by paf 250 second strike jets which we got already we have 65 hi tech F 16 50 more will bring the number to 115 than order 35 more J 10


----------



## Super Falcon




----------



## Super Falcon




----------



## sopc_dsp

ok, this J10B type is the newest type

*J10BZ*

it is the best type.










-

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## Tiger Awan

TaimiKhan said:


> Not yet inducted, still going under testing.



Nothing can be taken for sure, But they may have entered IOC. This change of colour means some thing.

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## rAli

sopc_dsp said:


> ok, this J10B type is the newest type
> 
> *J10BZ*
> 
> it is the best type.



What does Z suggest here? Is 'Z' for the one with IFR or are we talking about something being added in for the future? 
Just one more question, how many prototypes of J-10B are flying as of now?


----------



## SBD-3

TaimiKhan said:


> Not yet inducted, still going under testing.



I can count 7 planes in yellow..in the second picture....I suspect them to be the prototypes...So this may be the final touch if it is in testing..I can assume that The current AC is most likely commercial model undergoing final trials...What makes me believe your argument is that the current AC is still without weapons....so I may assume that weapons integration and testing is still to come....what about engine...The one looks like WS-10 rather than AL-31F as WS-10A has wider nozels than AL-31F
here is a j-11 with Ws-10A





now looking at J-10B against a SU-31 with AL-31..the nozel difference can be seen


----------



## TaimiKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> I can count 7 planes in yellow..in the second picture....I suspect them to be the prototypes...So this may be the final touch if it is in testing..I can assume that The current AC is most likely commercial model undergoing final trials...What makes me believe your argument is that the current AC is still without weapons....so I may assume that weapons integration and testing is still to come....what about engine...The one looks like WS-10 rather than AL-31F as WS-10A has wider nozels than AL-31F
> here is a j-11 with Ws-10A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> now looking at J-10B against a SU-31 with AL-31..the nozel difference can be seen



Plz check the last two pictures in post# 2605, you will see the nozzle changed. The engines are still the Al-31s, not WS-10. AL-31 nozzles can be opened and closed, but as per the above told pics its clear these are AL-31s. 

There is no way that it can be told that in background the planes are J-10Bs or which one. 

Neither by these pictures it can be said this is which variant, an operational one or not. It even may be the first prototype modified with IFR and being tested for aerial refueling or it can be the 3rd prototype or 4th one, as Chinese mostly make 4-5 prototypes and then certify the plane for serial production, for now, we have seen evidence of 3 prototypes, this is 4th or any of the old, that time will tell.

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## bilal1219

Well, i think the above pictures show something. couz we know chinese are full of surprises. they will inform us about its IOC when they have 2 squadrans of it running already.


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## Arsalan

i hope that PAF gets these in due time ie by 2013~2014.

PAF will surely go for more then 36 once the initail 36 are evaluated unless China come up with something even better.... i dare to , some fifth generation plane.

regards!


----------



## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i hope that PAF gets these in due time ie by 2013~2014.
> 
> PAF will surely go for more then 36 once the initail 36 are evaluated unless China come up with something even better.... i dare to , some fifth generation plane.
> 
> regards!



This Chain of events remind me of an article which I used to laugh at 


> Pakistan has rapidly moved from the design and development stage to deployment and operationalization phases of the JF-17 Thunder and beyond. Pakistan is working with China to imporve to the J-10s and the J-11s. Already the Pakistan feedback has paid its dividends in the newer versions of the J-10s and the J-11 and possibly the J-14s (J-xx).





> PAF OWNS ABOUT 400 PLANES GOING TO ABOUT A THOUSAND IN THE NEXT DECADE: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has acquired 18 F-16 of the Block 52 series taking its total to 64, a squadron of jointly produced (China-Pakistan) JF 17 Thunder fighters. It has ordered some 36 J-10B fighters* upgraded to the the Super 10 an upgraded version of the J-10 with a locally made Chinese TVC engine* (beyond the WS-13). The PAF produced the K-8 trainer and is also working with the Chinese to produce L-15 supersonic trainers.





> With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India. Even then, with the 5 present contenders left in the MRCA, only the Eurofighter (assuming AESA radars) would be able to match the J-10 in air-to-air combat.


and interestingly


> Some versions of the redesigned J-10s will take off in 2009, however the official flight date for the Pakistani FC-20s is 2015, but in actuality the Pakistanis are way ahead on the schedule and working beyond the J-10 redesigns. The PAF is looking beyond the JF-17 thunders and the J-10s. The design for the next generation of Pakistani aircraft has already begun. The Chinese J-10s are ready for export now. The redesign and upgrade of the FC-20s will take about five more years.


----------



## zou_hope

I come here. I just tell you that we love you.

please read this link. please tell other brothers.

club.china.com\data\thread\12171906\2715\48\84\3_1 .htm

change \ to /. 
add "l" in link end.
remove blank in 3_1 .htm

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## rohailmalhi

This is the whole article ,translated using Google Translation.


> *Real relationship between Pakistan and China *
> Published :2010-07-13 00:00:09
> Analysis: China 1 Cao Min Send message add friends more works blog
> Level: Major Points: 11266
> 
> Pakistan's relations with China changed in two stages, the founding of China just when the pro-Pakistan line completely away, not very good relations with China, but also not bad, Pakistan has been hesitant in the swing of. 60 years, Pakistan has witnessed how China is "tens of thousands of border guards," the blow to India, this is changing.
> 
> 70's, the second Indian Ba Zhizhan, the United States first abandoned what he called "Asia's best friend" Pakistan. In order to draw the arms of the former Soviet Union was voted newspaper of India, the U.S. military to delay under various names, withheld that should be quickly handed over to Pakistan's weapons and equipment, and procurement of a large number of former Soviet Union, India advanced fighter aircraft, and complete the defeat of Pakistan, achieved air supremacy. At this time Pakistan has actually become a "World Orphans," a Pakistani go-vern-ment veteran president said: "We have been abandoned by the world."
> 
> At this point it is simply for India, "Sister Lin dropped the world" a good thing. Dongba eventually forced to independence, saw the Indian annexation of Pakistan has become possible, Pakistan limited resistance from the air beginning to be India defeated.
> 
> But in India, doing "split Dongba, recovering Pakistan," the occasion of the dream, a poor country but very suddenly stood behind Pakistan, Pakistan and China began to increase in this close contact. From the past "American Western communication platform" into a friendly country of China, were manufactured in China, "Jian 6,7" fighter, especially after the J-7 fighters into Pakistan. Making frantic series of the Indian Air Force has suffered significant losses.
> 
> Pakistan has been working to J-7 as a "guard the guardians over the capital" to look at, nicknamed "air sentry." At a time and began a radical Palestinian internal "big reflection" operation, the new go-vern-ment came to power, to change the original one-sided U.S. policy, turning into the embrace of China.
> 
> Pakistani politician's motto: If you believe that the United States at any time to opt for the abandoned. Analysis in Pakistan, western China's comparative advantages for Pakistan's largest "China is the CP-led country," is a mass attack system, a State may insist on at least 50-100 years of strong foreign policy, unlike the United States almost replace a president will face a new standard measure of friends. This is just too important for Pakistan.
> 
> China began to take unilateral 80 pro-US policies, while the Pakistani political attitude change. From the past very closely and to a slight flaw. But Pakistan insisted their policy strategies.
> 
> After the former Soviet Union invasion of Afghanistan, Pakistan was very nervous, after all, the Soviet Red Army all-powerful, so Pakistan and China closer together. While trying to make use of China and the United States at this time to contain the former Soviet Union. Pakistan determined to establish a road leading to Afghanistan's Resistance Army, the United States money, China to provide weapons, Pakistan is responsible for transportation to the hands of insurgents and eventually devoured the former Soviet Union in Afghanistan led to the complete bankruptcy plan.
> 
> 80-90 Years Ago, the United States replaced the head of China began to use soft means of internal differentiation, ultimately leading to the "Beijing Spring", and the U.S. Open later in the General Assembly requested sanctions against China over the world. Pakistan at this time is a watershed decision. Ruo-based Tully retired CIA officer recalled: The United States used to assist a large number of surplus military equipment, some new fighters, and not less than five million U.S. dollars each year for assistance, asked to leave Pakistan initiative to stand up to China's "democracy and freedom" side.
> 
> Pakistan did not give a direct answer, but while the United States began to acquiesce form of sale of F16 fighter Pakistan plans. When the United Nations General Assembly voting on the decision to impose sanctions on China occasion, Pakistan suddenly stand up (although small but still loud) answered aloud: "We firmly oppose sanctions against China, this is no reason to interfere with national sovereignty", which is associated Big sanctions on China's first against the motion. Pakistan welcomed the result as the U.S. military turmoil, economic and diplomatic sanctions.
> 
> Soon after the military coup in Pakistan Army go-vern-ment came to power. May have changed a lot, But the only thing Pakistani military go-vern-ment has not changed but strengthened, that is, toward relations with China. Here I might mention as far away as Cuba, North America, Chinese friends, who also voted against the proposal, followed by 48 Non-Aligned Movement advocated the convening of the Assembly of States around the world, the absolute advantage of a landslide against the United Nations passed a motion to interfere in China's internal affairs
> 
> Ciwai Pakistani military cooperation with China more closely. China developed the Red Arrow 8 missile business for the occasion, almost no market, Pakistan is the first bulk purchase, and held in their countries of 11 countries with Europe and the United States to participate in the so-called "pilot launch" this reputation in Red Arrow 8 Panama's decision to the assistance of Chinese experts strongly imitation, to replace his earlier "Tao 1" missile, named "Green Sword" (not the gum). Support through the United States secretly sold to Yugoslavia and independents against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia go-vern-ment troops, made beyond "reminder Eagle" good results.
> 
> Pakistan has good relations with France. In the early 90s, as head of the European arms embargo is the fire, Chirac did not dare openly sell weapons to China. But this time the expanding Taiwan independence, China is facing the East China Sea "a sea without military" situation, the urgent hope that the replacement of a new type of submarines, China has begun talks with the French intend to introduce the French Agesita B submarine technology.
> 
> Pakistan took the lead in China before the B purchased three Egesita submarines, of which one was secretly destined for China, the supply of China "to help maintain their research programs." Thus, 1996,97 consecutive 2 years, the Chinese Song-class series of 1,2-developed two models launched in the same year. 1 for the independent design, with a ladder form of watchtowers; 2 look almost the same as the French Agesita B is now the Song-class remodeling. 1 small volume, type 2 is based on the rate of a year since 3-4 vessels. (This information for the U.S. intelligence claims that France's opposition, Pakistan did not say anything.)
> 
> L8 training aircraft jointly developed by China and Pakistan, Pakistan spared no expense to participate in the research, but selling is not L8 very good, but Pakistan have no complaints. China and Pakistan jointly developed the new tank, based on their body is out of the Chinese army out of T85IIMP, which previously came from Thailand, many are not conducive to T85II rumors, Pakistan does not seem to hear!
> 
> 21st Century 10 years ago promised a new type of fighter Xiaolong finally flies, on the whole country is celebrating the occasion of Pakistan, India, Russia, the use of weapons contracts attempt to force the interruption of supply Xiaolong fighter engine. And Pakistan have no recourse but to pin their hopes on him that the "most reliable" country of China. Sure enough, China has a lot of ways to lift restrictions in Russia and the Klimov company into China. India will cost about 7.8 billion U.S. dollars to buy the Russian huge "second-hand" contract agreement did not prevent the ultimate domestic Pakistani cooperation, but was thrown a handful of Russia.
> 
> State President to visit Pakistan, the country's president in a ceremony led by the biggest go-vern-ment team went to airport waiting for. Even play a "6 Star Red Flag", the Indian media have commented that, "Pakistan military go-vern-ment in selling Pakistan." China gave Pakistan President is "4 good neighbors" highly.
> 
> Ciwai military go-vern-ment came to power after a lot of news to increase the content of tubes. In Pakistan are not allowed to "Taiwan and China" or "Beijing and Taipei" and to report the so-called edge ball rhetoric, they are still saying that, "China Taiwan Province." And several of my journalist friends in 2006 and 2007 were visited Pakistan, where there have been several incidents of armed attacks against the Chinese site. Since then, all by the Chinese for the completion of projects, have increased the large number of armed soldiers. Almost more than the president guard. Bus in Pakistan, if you are Chinese, you will feel what is "friends", "4 good neighbors?" You can visit many of the facilities to set up a closed area, and if that Westerners may be rejected. This is the 2006 British Thames Times story.
> 
> Here I should also talk to us. A Pakistani media reported that he saw and heard in China, attracted considerable public dissatisfaction with Pakistan. In some parts of the foreign affairs staff, always put Pakistan as a poor beggar country, Beijing, Shanghai and other cities of the foreign service area, always with the Palestinian people and India as aroused great dissatisfaction. (Both still very good resolution). In 2006, a newspaper reporter in the internal reference in the southwest reported the number of Border Road in southwest China's drivers, see the Palestinian people to house a large shopping bags, they bluntly asked them to get in his mouth abuse stop, this was also published in the Zhongguo Qingnian Bao. Reported seems to be improved.
> 
> These things Pakistani go-vern-ment current internal blockade, are not allowed to know their own nationals. But some "drinking foreign ink," a senior Chinese people there to run what tabloid leaked to the Palestinian people should matter, but also declared that the best you do not go to China. Pakistan go-vern-ment although these tabloid confiscated. But they can not handle those "Chinese", only deportation.
> 
> From the large area that we go-vern-ment can be worthy of a friend. However, from trivial that some of our citizens really do not know in the end who is a friend? In the end who think highly of you! I am not criticizing their own. But some of us like this, the more people look down on us, we must face happens to heat the cold *** people posted, but for those who love our faith, gave and cynicism. Less than the total number of Pakistani nationals in China 1 / 3, we offend the hundreds of thousands, find much to complain, to open tomorrow, hundreds of thousands of crimes, but also that much to complain ~ ~ Pakistani nationals whether there are several hundreds of thousands, enough to offend us how many days of?
> 
> Then ask! China's many friends in the international arena, it? In 1989 the UN General Assembly, the whole world impose sanctions on China, this is only the United States, where the results of hand shook slightly. The past, our friend is not a coward to speak, that is, the dollar took Mei Xin. Only two true friends said the word justice, subsequently met with U.S. sanctions. But then we can give them? Money? Is a very, very advanced weapons? Or something else? Almost nothing. However, retained faith in the hearts of Pakistan and Cuba, they still firmly believe that China will one day rise.
> 
> Frankly we in the international arena, not a few sincere friends left, and ancestors left behind, "Red International" We have quickly lost his savings of almost the same. Do not recover. We really want to become a "loner" it? May overshoot to rope in those such as Korea, Vietnam, such a "buddy" it?
> 
> Assistance to Pakistan is the case of China, in order to save transport space, multi-material containing some relief, travel with the team's medical team removed the seats to fly to China this position relief ......
> 
> My father told me that when the world abandoned us, the best thing the Chinese people themselves do not give to us, we defeated the invaders, I am willing to contribute all, willing to save! "That the Chinese earthquake, a Pakistani friends wrote this message. And similar stand in these days is not uncommon in Pakistan.
> 
> Chinese brothers need something, we will provide something. "Two days after the earthquake, Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf that the Chinese embassy in Pakistan in person, sent his condolences to the Chinese people. Pervez Musharraf said that Pakistan two years ago, suffered a major earthquake hit South Asia, China's assistance to the people of Pakistan" remember. "
> 
> This will be "China is a staunch ally of Pakistan," written in the primary school textbooks on the state, this time almost exhausting. 16 May morning, two C-130 transport plane took off from an air base in Rawalpindi, loaded about 90 million U.S. dollars worth of relief materials to fly China. On the same day, Pakistan Red Crescent Society to contribute 50,000 U.S. dollars the Chinese Red Cross.
> 
> Pakistan People's life is not rich, but generous in the first, which in the Palestinian Red Crescent did not seem strange, Acting Chairman of Xihanifu: "Chinese brothers and Pakistan go-vern-ment and people have the greatest difficulty 'll help! "May 27, from 28 Pakistani doctors and paramedical personnel and the medical team, arrived in China.
> 
> To address victims temporary residence, from May 19 to 22, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman urged the international community to support three consecutive tent. Following the announcement, Pakistan go-vern-ment swift action, continuous donations to China quake tents. Carefully to find the Chinese people, China's tent Palestinian contributions to the 10-digit number of accurate, up 22,260, while in batch transportation, or even accurate to single digits. The reason is, Pakistan, the use of a national strategic reserve of all the tent!
> 
> Pakistani brotherhood, so many Chinese people moved. "What can I say, a country can do all the tents donated to the reserve in China, which has gone beyond friendship." "No wonder we often say that Pakistan is a brother, indeed, a lot of brothers can not do this. "
> 
> International affairs, difficult to have such a deep friendship, and the vast majority of benefits take the lead!
> 
> The earthquake relief, Pakistan donated 22,000 tents, as well as the relief effort, you can search for relevant reports ----------- for the assistance the Chinese earthquake in Pakistan domestic readiness to move light tent
> 
> After reading what you feel you.?
> 
> Please, please, people. .. To see Palestinian people right out of your friendly .. they also hold a friendly hand.
> 
> Not for any other group of real brothers .. hope to be able to top what you read! With your support more people will know the real thing!

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## Patriot

zou_hope said:


> I come here. I just tell you that we love you.
> 
> please read this link. please tell other brothers.
> 
> club.china.com\data\thread\12171906\2715\48\84\3_1 .htm
> 
> change \ to /.
> add "l" in link end.
> remove blank in 3_1 .htm


Here, let me post correct link for you 
????????????_????_?????--??????--????????

---------- Post added at 12:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:47 PM ----------

Here's a google translation link Google Translate


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## Dazzler

zou_hope said:


> I come here. I just tell you that we love you.
> 
> please read this link. please tell other brothers.
> 
> club.china.com\data\thread\12171906\2715\48\84\3_1 .htm
> 
> change \ to /.
> add "l" in link end.
> remove blank in 3_1 .htm



Hi, 

thanks for a wonderful and heart warming article. The trust and mutual respect we share is rarely seen in modern world at such a level. Long live Sino-Pak friendship.

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## hataf

from depths of my heart....

long live china-pak friendship

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## TOPGUN

Yes we love you too China now people plzz lets use the sections for what they are used for as this one J-10 / FC-20 MRCA thanks kindly.. when i came here i actually thought there was some new news on fc-20 .

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## Manticore

Fisher pointed out that in China's fifth-generation fighter plane before take-off, China's aviation advances in the field of electronics and the engine is likely to birth a new "four half generation" fighters, such as the recently begun flight testing the F-10B aircraft. These fighter planes and may eventually develop a successful fifth-generation fighter will be the current and future challenges of the U.S. Air Force constitute a more effective, but also Japan, South Korea and Taiwan was forced out of its fourth-generation fighter. United States Navy are not being created as the F-22 fighter as the fifth-generation fighter project excellence, but its intention to rely on the slow flying F-35C fighters - an attack mission.

USsaysChinaisdevelopingtwofifthgenerationfighters-PLA Air Force-china defense xinjunshi.com


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## Kompromat

zou_hope said:


> I come here. I just tell you that we love you.
> 
> please read this link. please tell other brothers.
> 
> club.china.com\data\thread\12171906\2715\48\84\3_1 .htm
> 
> change \ to /.
> add "l" in link end.
> remove blank in 3_1 .htm



Same on this side of the border

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## MenOfHonor

Well I have been reading all these threads lot of people have lots of opinions about what PAF should have or not. I just have one concern, Now that we have a fighter plane of our own, our own platform. I would like PAF to evolve this JF17 into a 4.5 generation fighter by improving its size, material, avonics, radar missiles etc etc etc. as i have seen PAK in the past, they aquire the TOT an latest techgnologies but due to our lack of technicans an unprofessionalism we never exceeded our selves. they should in next 2 years make JF 17 a medium weight fighter evolve into samething like the F16 block52 or J10B. increase size, latest evonics, radar, technology weapons more weight to thrust ratio, better composite an carbon material. that is what PAF needs...


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## cloyce

Hi everybody.
By searching technical datas on J-10, I found different conflicting information in the web.

So, could you provide me the most reliable info source in your opinion, please?

Especially, I'm interested more on these informations:

1. Climbing rate
2. Instant turn rate
3. sustained turn rate
4. Typical air-air range and typical air-ground range.
5. Radar used.

Thank you.


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## Tshering22

That's a really nice fighters Chinese have built. I think you guys can benefit a lot from opening up its exports to more countries in a similar scheme as as USA does with European countries.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

J10B will be GEM of Pakistan Airforce , 40-80 units  it would be fantastic , superior planes 

Real Air Superiority fighters with advance technology that probbly would not be sold to us by other countries for another 10 years



China is the real SUPER POWER and demands respect , 100&#37; chinese plane , engineering marval

I can just imagine the J10B in pakistani Airforce color scheme the J10B would just look amazing just like the JF17 thunder was looking amazing in recent airshow ...

And 40 J10B fighters parked in Pakistan Airforce bases ... I hope get a group shot of these planes


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## TOPGUN

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> J10B will be GEM of Pakistan Airforce , 40-80 units  it would be fantastic , superior planes
> 
> Real Air Superiority fighters with advance technology that probbly would not be sold to us by other countries for another 10 years
> 
> 
> 
> China is the real SUPER POWER and demands respect , 100% chinese plane , engineering marval
> 
> I can just imagine the J10B in pakistani Airforce color scheme the J10B would just look amazing just like the JF17 thunder was looking amazing in recent airshow ...
> 
> And 40 J10B fighters parked in Pakistan Airforce bases ... I hope get a group shot of these planes



Yes Azad we are all wating bro.. to get out fc-20's inshallah can't to have them in our PAF schme


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## a1b2c145



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## a1b2c145



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## SBD-3

Tshering22 said:


> That's a really nice fighters Chinese have built. I think you guys can benefit a lot from opening up its exports to more countries in a similar scheme as as USA does with European countries.



as per previous discussions....J-10B will *not be exported* to other countries only users will be PAF and PLAAF

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## bc040400065




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## tequiero

is it a good aircraft???


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## hataf

tequiero said:


> is it a good aircraft???



As you know its Chinese "MAAL"

third class

dumb like a Buffalo

and will not provide Even one second stand against your mighty LCA TEJAS

don't have BVR IF have than Untrustable .. . . . .
Bombs never fall on target but Km away from target

in precision it can't even Ever achieve the accuracy like your missiles .. . . 

hope this will satisfy you

*on a serious note if you want to find out you have to read previous 2,000 posts*

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## Momin

tequiero said:


> is it a good aircraft???



 plese don't cry, it will be pakistani flying coffins....

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## Jungibaaz

tequiero said:


> is it a good aircraft???

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## True_Pakistan_Zindabad

hasnain0099 said:


> as per previous discussions....J-10B will *not be exported* to other countries only users will be PAF and PLAAF



If it is a successful platform surely they will be. I would not mind friendly nations like Turkey, Central Asian states, Gulf states, or far East states to fly a common airplane. With the help of states like Turkey we could further evolve this aircraft to being capable of being compared to F-16 Block 60+

The Chinese do not have access to great technological masterpieces like F-16 or like the upcoming JSF. We should involve others in J-10B project. PAF will have to go to western companies to source some of the hardware anyways, so no use in keeping this plane secret. People should know about your capabilities right off the page if this plane is truly an advanced specimen of Chinese ingenuity.


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## SBD-3

True_Pakistan_Zindabad said:


> If it is a successful platform surely they will be. I would not mind friendly nations like Turkey, Central Asian states, Gulf states, or far East states to fly a common airplane. With the help of states like Turkey we could further evolve this aircraft to being capable of being compared to F-16 Block 60+
> 
> The Chinese do not have access to great technological masterpieces like F-16 or like the upcoming JSF. We should involve others in J-10B project. PAF will have to go to western companies to source some of the hardware anyways, so no use in keeping this plane secret. People should know about your capabilities right off the page if this plane is truly an advanced specimen of Chinese ingenuity.



Chinese will not risk their premier asset to fall into any hands....no one does.....Even Russians limited Indians to their 25&#37; share when they got money in their coffers (thanks to oil exports).....Trust me, alongwith other things....lack of finances was another factor which forced Russians to export their advance birds.....With Russian AF in shackles, with lack of money to buy the new platforms, Running the AF industry could only be successfully met by getting export orders.....even with their triumph S-500 (which they hinted could be exported) seems to have a low probability of being exported as Russians have 300 Billion USD up their pockets.....Applying the same thing China would not need to export this model...instead baseline J-10A may be offered as a high end solution along with FC-1 but the fact remains, they dont need to export their champion because they simply dont need money like Russia...Secondly regarding JSF....you haven't heard the news about Chinese breaking into LMCo's systems and hacking TBs of data about JSF....and as they are building their ( or perhaps two) 5th Gen program.....they would have been investing Billions of USD in R&D. So Turkish wont be able to offer something ground breaking tech to Chinese....

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## Indian-Devil

hataf said:


> As you know its Chinese "MAAL"
> 
> third class
> 
> dumb like a Buffalo
> 
> and will not provide Even one second stand against your mighty LCA TEJAS
> 
> don't have BVR IF have than Untrustable .. . . . .
> Bombs never fall on target but Km away from target
> 
> in precision it can't even Ever achieve the accuracy like your missiles .. . .
> 
> hope this will satisfy you
> 
> *on a serious note if you want to find out you have to read previous 2,000 posts*



cool guys, answere could have been given in different manner also, he is a new guy. why so much frustration on a new guy..

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## Donatello

Indian-Devil said:


> cool guys, answere could have been given in different manner also, he is a new guy. why so much frustration on a new guy..



Because the "new" guy is showing ignorance by not reading what happened in this thread earlier.

plus his question is just too vague. Few words yet the answer will be so long....whether from a Pakistani, Indian or Chinese perspective.

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## Luftwaffe

If someone has not already posted.

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## SBD-3

Luftwaffe said:


> If someone has not already posted.



this is the prototype while it was in intial testing phase. Wangrong has posted some fresh pictures on the previous pages where one could see J-10B in PLAAF colour.


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## SBD-3

@wangrong
one of the posteres were mentioning it as J-10BZ,,,,,i wonder what Z stands for ( AFAIK S stands for dual seater in Chinese)


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## SBD-3

here is something i was able to get from a chinese forum 


> Listen sopc_dsp private occasion that this section of J10BZ latest test type, compared to J10B, J10BZ type of aerodynamic shape, or change slightly in the J10 series
> J10BZ type is characterized by:
> Light weight,
> Accelerate the performance of the best
> J10BZ high-altitude maximum speed of not only the J10 series in the fastest model, J10BZ type missile with a maximum speed of 4 is the fastest growing country,
> J10BZ type flight was a J10 series where the furthest Revealed nothing specific. J10BZ good form in the northwest.


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## Super Falcon

personally J 10 is a premiere aircraft of chinese airforce and the second biggest airforce of the world so it has something in it thats why china is still in process of inducting it

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## Arsalan

Super Falcon said:


> personally J 10 is a premiere aircraft of chinese airforce and the second biggest airforce of the world so it has something in it thats why china is still in process of inducting it



sometime i simple hate this policy of Chines to keep all specs of military hardwares under thinck cover sheets.
i mean, look we are going for the FC-20, we should know about its realy abilities, we should be able to talk about it and be proud of it...
for this i sometime really Hate the PAF and Chines policies of keeping it silent!
but
.
.
.
.
most of the time i simply love them for this,
WoW, what a way to do things,
just keep it "SiLiEnT"
 


regards!


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## shanixee

The J-10C carrier-based fighter performance parameters estimated to be: the captain 14.57 meters, wingspan of 8.78 meters, height: 5.3 meters, sweep angle 50-52 degrees, the wing area of 38 square meters, vertical tail area of 8.4 square meters, thrust of 152 kN.



Takeoff and landing roll distance: less than 50 meters

High altitude of the maximum speed: 2.0 Mach

Low maximum speed: 1.2 Mach (1473 km / h)

Maximum ceiling: 18,000 meters

Combat radius: 1,300 km

Maximum range: 3,000 km

Maximum Takeoff Weight: 18.27 thousand kilograms, 6000 kilograms load of bombs, thrust-weight ratio greater than 1.1.

Plug-in 11 (5 under the fuselage, each wing the next three), the largest external fuel tanks 4100 liters (1500 × 2,1100 × 1)



These data indicate that J-10C carrier-based and J-10 package type is almost identical, but thrust from 122 kN to 152 kN, roll distances have been shortened to 50 meters only. Like with the J-10, J-10C carrier-based addition to maintaining the normal level flight, there are enough thrust to meet the needs of the implementation of a variety of motor actions, so that the level of acceleration, climbing, circling, etc. have a larger performance increase, even in the air combat mode effortlessly vertically upwards. 



J-10C will be equipped with a weapons system operator is responsible for precision strikes, J-10C can carry more than 4 tons of ammunition, but also equipped with a goal of launching precision-guided munitions pod instructions. This aircraft will probably have ground attack capability.



Related link: Google interactive J-10C by 81 Army Soul


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## AVIAN

arsalanaslam123 said:


> sometime i simple hate this policy of Chines to keep all specs of military hardwares under thinck cover sheets.
> i mean, look we are going for the FC-20, we should know about its realy abilities, we should be able to talk about it and be proud of it...
> for this i sometime really Hate the PAF and Chines policies of keeping it silent!
> but
> .
> .
> .
> .
> most of the time i simply love them for this,
> WoW, what a way to do things,
> just keep it "SiLiEnT"
> 
> 
> 
> regards!



There is nothing uncommon to keep things secrets as it is their major policy to keep things under doubt until they get major appearance. If you are really willing to have some specification of J-10 then you need to study fighter jets of its class, I mean F-16, Lavi as well as Mig-29. Then only you will get some meaningful info about J-10


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## SBD-3

AVIAN said:


> There is nothing uncommon to keep things secrets as it is their major policy to keep things under doubt until they get major appearance. If you are really willing to have some specification of J-10 then you need to study fighter jets of its class, I mean F-16, Lavi as well as Mig-29. Then only you will get some meaningful info about J-10



Okey F-16 makes sense.....but lavi and Mig-29????.....its you IMHO who seriously need some study.....J-10 in structure and mission capabilities should be compared to Grippen, Typhoon and Rafale which ecompas similar roles and structure


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## SBD-3

here is a detailed discussion....I would appreciate a Chinese bro translate it more accurately


> Improved version of SU-30MKI VS J-10B
> 
> sunli1217 on 2009-8-21 00:46: All the Western media on the Su-30MKI have a high rating. &#12290; . &#12290; .
> 
> I stand mountain high:
> 
> When a high rating? In addition to the Comedy of the F-22 MKI overwhelming outside investigation? Redflag in Laomi the F-15 DF only to easily drill its brain out, and that TVC is not using the degree of home, Poststall chaos to the results beaten.
> 
> Westerner himself evaluation of SKM operational effectiveness than MKI, MKI actually also nerve to get to than the new 35 SM2. The essence of Mao's technology will be reflected in the Soviet -50, including the Su -35, MKI or step aside it.
> 
> Boulders and more clouds: so that MKI is equivalent to what level? F16BLOCK52 air is better than not?
> 
> I stand on top of mountains 2009-8-21 01:29
> 
> Do not expect too complacent. What qualifications and BLK52 MKI ratio? Astra performance is higher than the AIM-120C7? Or BARS than APG-68V5 / 7? Is R-73 is better than AIM-9X? First aim is simple beat JHMCS? AL-31FP thrust increases put into effect? How it 122.6KN also stop there? TVC nozzle can be brought about? Post Stall What are the consequences of improper use effect? AT the TVC pretending you this AVEN, no combination of aerodynamic design can play a number of performance? The RWR, ECM, ECCM, towed decoy so the hair simply no technical essence to the MKI, do not talk and Laomi compared to the. Mao Su -35 people there is the real good stuff.
> I stand mountain high 2009-8-21 12:54
> 
> 11B is lower than 10B, 10B to play the role of Su -35, four generations ahead.
> 
> erwinhans erwinhans
> 
> J-11B J-10B worse than where it? Avionics are amplified at the ....
> 
> I stand mountain high
> 
> If you read the avionics architecture would not have said so.
> 
> *PUPU has been said, 11B 10A stronger than in theory, but now look, or 10A is more reliable, even after considering tactics is the most capable air combat aircraft.*
> 
> *Of course, you can say no on the very line 11B is not complete until the state of 11B, 11B, etc. only to full status, and it is more than a 10B, not 10A.*
> 
> socket on 2009-8-21
> 
> SU30MKI weight of two tons, the engine thrust has not changed, first of all a lot of thrust-weight ratio on the decline,
> 
> sunli1217 sunli1217
> 
> SU30MKI because the radar heavy, so only use the canard to trim weight, engine thrust has not changed how do you know?
> 
> I stand mountain high:
> 
> Kanwa&#30340;&#25968;&#25454;&#30053;&#22686;&#19968;&#28857;981210d.html Kanwa slightly increased data point 981210d.html
> [url=http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread199779/pg1]AL-31FP/Su 30 MKI : 3D TVC or enhanced 2D TVC?, page 1 that no changed altogether.
> If the push to have increased significantly, then the flow of T4 changed or changed?
> 
> sunli1217 sunli1217
> Even if the thrust has not changed but SU30MKI a vector tail jet, although the life span is not long, but in war enough.
> 
> I stand mountain high:
> TVC manually operated vents had better not copy the F-22 This combination of aerodynamic design, the fire pushed one flight TVC design effect. People forget TVC jet F-119 is still more than 10 of the weight of T / W, you AL-31 would have the U.S. standard T / W is only 7.14, add 110 kg more FC the vents. Two gave hundreds of kilograms of weight the aircraft it originally MKI on weight gain, and the next like dead ducks. And two-seat Su -27 resistance is relatively large, stood Haohao De insisted not to use single-seat two-seat configuration, but still maintains the development of F-15D / E, and F-14's kind of low resistance two-seat cockpit, which for MKI already insufficient thrust is too worse the. General mobility can be very bad MKI must not be better than the MKK where to go. As for the TVC to give the Post-stall capacity, in the exercise had already been fully demonstrated Redflag passed, at least not well Asan use this feature, but lost to hover performance data often do not own nice F-15.
> 
> sunli1217 sunli1217
> In the case of electronic equipment and a very heavy mid-sized fighter aircraft or the more obvious advantages.
> 
> I stand mountain high:
> 
> Will the two aerodynamic design of an era it? Will the Soviet Union's flight control to -27 J-10 level? MKI you spend the legendary KSU-142M does not?&#65311; Where is your child that advantage of it?
> sbtcsem:
> AL-31FP who is popular on this? Why do I find the data is 132kN?
> 
> erwinhans:
> 
> 126/128, should not 132
> 
> Zhong Yan:
> Yesterday, several of us all in the same batch of 35 new radar data, we 11b of 14XX, desperate to expand antenna diameter, more than one meter, can meet nearly f22 radar purposes. F22 to 5 square meters goal is 240km, 35 not expand in diameter, less than one meter, he always has the power density electronic devices as we and the United States and Europe, you said that the power of how to expand ah? American f22 destined phased array, the power density than us and bigger in Europe, barely do 5 m 240km, Westerner a broken radar, still shouting 400km, or 3 square meters of the target, Westerner's caliber and f22's almost, you If the Westerner said the tradition of honest and radar under the same conditions to go beyond the United States, How painful, directly and did the old radar forget, do not like the new suicide, the role of distance is three digits.
> Zhong Yan Su-30MKK with the high cost of ground attack, as JH-7A, and avionics bad. Acting in 2006 when four of 30 against a s300 position, results in all were shot down before, there is no local position was found. While for the two fertilizer explosive to use, direct dry blasting s300 position themselves unharmed.
> 
> I stand mountain high:
> 
> How should increase the rear weight, right? &#12290; Comparison of Su-27B and UB at a glance. Asan MKI position very clear on it? If it is air superiority, why bother with the seat? This high resistance of the seat or, worse than the F-15E of many, it touches on a new two-seater MIG-29 is a low resistance profile. If it is ground, how it on the TVC?
> 
> I stand mountain high:
> IRBIS-E despite two enlarged, but the average power is 5KW, PESA's shortcomings are not do not know how it is impossible, and APG-77 than the detection range, right?
> 
> BARS What is a good stock? What can be comparable to ZHUK-MSF? N001VEP PERO another antenna processing system combined with not less than it was. Mao is not to say people are not good merchandise, but there is not Asan.
> 
> IRBIS-E of Peak Power and Average Power were 20KW and 5KW, MAKS on published data, Carlo Kopp, who has been so used. Do not see how the letter before other evidence of other data?
> 
> BARS is not a rigid target is indeed a good delivery, but there is no advantage of PD. You have to really say good BARS radar rigid target with MIG-31 on the N-007 are.
> 
> .... However, compared to MKK BARS edge detection distance is too narrow a search. While the goal of scanning less, but can be targeted more. But consume a lot less than the MKK power ....
> 
> I stand mountain high:
> 
> PD did not have the advantage? You mean mechanically scanned antenna, right? Electronic scanning can not escape from pulsed-doppler ah. BARS detection range than N001VEP really big number, but the 14XX in the J-11B was to cry out before. The words I touched in passing, not to downgrade the hair people, after all 14XX and Mao were associated not small.
> 
> Do you think BARS can match ZHUK-MSF? Whether power, detection range, gain, or treatment system not a class, good and evil ZHUK-MSF, before the AESA is NIIR in ace, BARS What in the NIIP is the status?
> 
> It is not necessary is not, the original JL-10A with the British technology, power density is very high indeed. *607 and 14 are now in rapid development, and there are sources of foreign technology, 14XX and the J-10B's radar more than is rational BARS or something.*
> 
> Do not count the weight of the mechanical scanning of the APG-68V9 commendable before nor any place, people, but a small antenna 72X48 cm.
> 
> erwinhans erwinhans
> 
> BARS&#24403;&#28982;&#27604;&#19981;&#19978;Zhuk-MSF BARS, of course not compare Zhuk-MSF
> But not the outgoing incumbent, Zhuk-MAE/AE 30MKI or NIIP with products under the What?
> 
> Now the radar, optical calculation power has no meaning, because the development of modern RWR soon, not according to the air situation very precise control of electromagnetic radiation energy itself can not be a good control of their waveform, optical power increases The result is likely to be found each other first. This is TG in actual combat took the lead in the confrontation has been verified.
> 
> APG-77 and APG-81 to emphasize not just the power, but DBF waveform caused by a combination of control, burst pulse pseudo-random spread spectrum technology and can bring a low interception rate and the resulting health of powerful electromagnetic confrontation capacity. They stressed that the availability of complex electromagnetic environment, rather than mere theoretical detection range
> 
> ...... F-35's APG-81 is actually a conformal antenna system, to do with the part of the communications, electronic surveillance, electronic countermeasures antennas and integrated data integration, bringing the overall SA high bonus points, APG-77 + ALR- 94 compared the outcome of the main indicators Shangqie no points (features and upgrade potential is certainly better), the hair that AESA 5 or forget it ......
> 
> I stand mountain high:
> 
> BARS replaced ZHUK-MAE? Way for radar suppliers? This thing possible? That Vladimir Zagorodniy will certainly take a knife burst into the HAL and NIIR and human Rush's. NIIP next generation products? Five useless on wool will MKI What? Looks around and only IRBIS-E is available. But the MKI's power supply system can support the two amplified monster? ZHUK-MSF average power looks like only 2-3KW, but has been BARS high.
> 
> pzgr43 pzgr43
> 
> According to various channels of information, Westerner back some of the radar signal processing algorithm is also considerable cattle X, but the Westerner has been plagued by low device performance for decades, the typical example is the 27SK and 30MKI on the weight of electronic devices, almost more than contemporary U.S. aircraft doubled, performance is very or somewhat weaker.
> 
> Upstairs Westerner through it that this situation may have improved recently?
> 
> prometheus prometheus
> Mao Guogong data when snow leopard fabric, very strong domestic and international military response drops of the altar. In the T / R modules and the number of parameters such as power and CIP are behind apg77 circumstances, its very difficult to claim that performance. At that time you want to install in the Soviet Union 35 Snow Leopard, according to Su-35 can provide power supply and cooling systems, the work seems to be difficult for the snow leopard needs to provide effective heat dissipation and thus cause its power is limited to a lower level, there is no possible Legends of the 3RCS detection of more than 400 objects. The newly designed T50 may change the power supply and cooling issues, but still not escape the problem of low integration module.
> Served by the progress of the last batch of birds of prey should have changed the mode switch apg77 the module package 81. Raptor design cooling capacity has been considered sufficient to accommodate any lateral upgraded radar. 35 upgrade is limited.
> ...... 35BM that 400KM distance gaze pattern detection angle and restricts the search ...... great ......


Google Translate


----------



## SBD-3

furthremore,


> *J10B-to-ground capacity to be strengthened though, but its air combat capability is improved several times, J10B main function is to combat air superiority,*
> J10B overall aerodynamic shape of the transonic and supersonic area ratio, area ratio was the depth of optimization, re-design the front fuselage, vertical fin, pelvic fins, replace the new wing (airfoil is essentially the same, using a more complex material), a new generation of three-dimensional supersonic inlet at 2 times the speed of sound BUMP available when the total pressure recovery was better than 3 wave system inlet, optimized aerodynamic shape in Asia, cross, supersonic envelope The drag reduction effect is obvious, acceleration performance is improved. Judging from the test flight, high altitude with a bomb under (simulated bombs) and maximum static speed and ceiling were all improved.
> *J10B the structural weight weight loss significantly, mount capability has been enhanced.
> *
> J10B using next-generation avionics system, including an improved flight control system, the latest supporting airborne phased array radar (active / passive) electronic warfare systems, *new optical radar*.
> J10B the system updates no less than 70&#37;
> 
> J10B composite materials used in expanding the scope of the structural weight after weight loss despite obvious, but AESE radar, optical radar, electronic warfare equipment, offset part of the structure weight gain weight, J10B J10A empty weight, is less than some relief, but J10B or empty weight of 8 tons.
> 
> Wing is removable under the electric baton, pulled down two electric batons to light the other 10B service, you will find 10B not always with two electric batons for


----------



## SBD-3

and............


> J10B the first effect of the change before the machine:
> 1, to meet the pre-compression before dsi, high intake efficiency.
> 2, the lower flat was the first machine the first circular machine than the more compressed the first lift, a larger amount of supersonic, the focus moves forward, so J10B telex control law must be part of the changes.
> 3, the first effect of the change before the machine to improve the area ratio of transonic, supersonic area ratio, J10B better supersonic drag ratio.
> 
> Not to install AESE play flat nose, but AESE more suitable than the flat plate antenna head.





> In 2008 after the suspension of the other programs, and 10 full shift change Bump inlet single program, have discussed the possibility of the ship, finally installed air-driven, air superiority performance to strengthen and expand the multi-purpose capabilities, complete give up the ship's direction.
> In 2008 on the identification of 10 change as a 3.5 (4.5) on behalf of the production machine, and 4 (5) on behalf of some technology validation.
> . Was tapped on the identification of 10 4 (5) generation of avionics into (of course, includes the AESA).
> Therefore, a significant increase in 10 to change the use of composite materials, try to reduce the RCS of the process, in addition to Bump inlet, re-designed machine first, before the fuselage, the wings changes the distribution of materials and external, vertical tail and tail (ventral) fin repair type, but also to minimize the appearance of the prominence body, would Air light into half-buried, the cooling air inlets from the convex-type embedded into possession,. &#12290; . &#12290; . &#12290; . &#12290; .
> The result is significant drag the whole machine, Asian / cross / drag ratio to enhance supersonic, RCS reduce an order of magnitude.
> 
> The latest J10BZ, flight test in early J10B based on the data obtained, were further optimized on the air, the latest J10BZ and future production of J10B still have some differences.
> Future production of J10B shape with the latest appearance will be consistent J10BZ.


----------



## AVIAN

hasnain0099 said:


> Okey F-16 makes sense.....but lavi and Mig-29????.....its you IMHO who seriously need some study.....J-10 in structure and mission capabilities should be compared to Grippen, Typhoon and Rafale which ecompas similar roles and structure



You and mine described aircraft are of similar class depending upon its avionics system. I never in any way comparing J-10 with Lavi and Mig-29 rather specifiying a need of further study to overcome its secrecy syndrome. By the way, J-10 is a secret project as specified by above member then only you are forcing yourself to assume it in the league of Gripen, Typhoon and Rafale catagory is beyond my level of comprehension.


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## SBD-3

AVIAN said:


> You and mine described aircraft are of similar class depending upon its avionics system. *I never in any way comparing J-10 with Lavi and Mig-29* rather specifiying a need of further study to overcome its secrecy syndrome.


referring to you're post


> If you are really willing to have some specification of J-10 then you need to study *fighter jets of its class, I mean F-16, Lavi as well as Mig-29*


 I hope you're not using Chinese so that I misunderstood this 



> By the way, J-10 is a secret project as specified by above member then only you are forcing yourself to assume it in the league of Gripen, Typhoon and Rafale catagory is beyond my level of comprehension.


Every Chinese Project is a secret project, I dont remeber a single project that they announced publically before development.....do you know any?.....secondly if my classification is wrong then you should specify a class.....where would you classify J-10 ??


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## Momin




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## SBD-3

Momin said:


>



I think its more PSed cuz PLAAF version has just finished up....PLAAN version will take longer

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## shanixee

U.S. forces have recently Baoliao: China's Cheng Fei has developed the latest J10 improved - J10C fighters. The successful development of this fighter is also expected back in the U.S. military side, because J10 aircraft were formally stripped of its official to disclose their have been listed in installed as many as dozens of front-line troops.

J10C equipped with more advanced radar equipment, radar, the radar has a relatively J10 greater detection range and have to track 12 targets and pose the greatest threat against them six goals. The cockpit set up a more advanced home-made diffraction HUD. In addition, equipped with J10C In addition to the more advanced PL12 in the moment will also be equipped with air to air missiles, more advanced PL-13 long-range air to air missiles, which have an anti-missile early-warning capabilities. Installation of a laser-guided pod J10C, can launch a variety of laser-guided bombs, to further enhance the fighter-to-ground precision strike capability.


J10C with the J10 has a very different in appearance, its inlet using a more sophisticated design, the original thrust of the engine because of the additional installation of a larger design of six bone ribs will cease to exist, replaced by a more streamlined design. In addition to other inlet, J10C and J10 appearance on the biggest difference is that, J10C also the same as the F16E installation of a similar "Hunchback Falcon" and two extra large fuel tanks. The U.S. side was not surprised, the United States that the J10 fighter design success is in its completely digested and absorbed the advantages of the F16 fighter, so J10C uses the F16E similar design to increase the practice of the voyage was not surprising. J10 fighter overall performance has exceeded F16A / B, while the performance of J10C fighters will have to surpass the U.S. active-duty, one of the main fighter plane of all models of F16. But the U.S. also believes that because of J10 aircraft engines still rely on Russia, so Russia's J10C can only use the latest improved AL-31FN engine.


The United States further noted that, J10C the successful development of China's significance lies not only J10C fighters themselves, but more because, as China's fourth-generation fighter demonstrator important mission! It is learned that, J10C use of stealth coatings, infrared signature suppression, and many of the stealth technology to reduce the amount of infrared radiation, and radar reflectivity, while the U.S. military successfully developed before the fourth-generation fighter F35 is also the first in the F16E aircraft carried out a stealth design verification work, and the Russian launch of S-37 Golden Eagle fighter planes also serve the same task. Therefore, J10C marks the successful development of China's real fourth-generation fighters JXX is also about to take off!




Journal of the Australian air force official blog has the author, exposure of China's J-10C carrier-based aircraft data and the performance of the shape, which reduce the landing roll to 50 meters distance.


The article points out, these data show, J-10C carrier-based aircraft and the J-10 fighter series is almost identical, only the thrust increased from 122 kN to 152 kN, taxiing distances have been shortened to 50 meters. With the J-10, like, J-10C carrier-based aircraft In addition to maintaining a normal level flight, there are plenty of thrust to meet the needs of the implementation of a variety of combat missions, therefore, J-10C acceleration, climbing and circling and other standards may be a substantial increase, even if the increase in air into the vertical mode is also effortlessly.


The article said, J-10C carrier-based aircraft would be a weapons system operator manipulation, and is responsible for a precision strike. J-10C can carry more than 4 tons of ammunition, but the future will be equipped with precision-guided munitions. In addition, the carrier-based aircraft may also have the right to attack capability.

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## Donatello

Any updates on the version Pakistan is getting and it's armament?

They are expected until 2014, so that still leaves 4 years....


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## SBD-3

penumbra said:


> Any updates on the version Pakistan is getting and it's armament?
> 
> They are expected until 2014, so that still leaves 4 years....



Hay that reminds me of a poster referring to PAF pilot saying that PAF will have something like SU-30 in 2015
Now if i believe this there are three possibilities
1- Super Ten (FC-20) (Twin engined J-10 version in the possible class of advanced T III Typhoon) or a heavily modified J-10B as FC-20 (some times I have suspicion that 20 class means an altogather new level of AC gen just like F-22 after teen series so I would suspect the super ten) 
2- A possible J-11BS J-15 hybrid as FC-20 as it would be almost identical to SU-30 MKI... (or it may be another possible deal
3- The rumored J-10 J-11 Hybrid which could be unveiled in 2012 possibly
But these are my views only and thus open for criticism or debate


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## DESERT FIGHTER

PAF will be gettin J-10B further upgraded by PAF.


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## SBD-3

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> PAF will be gettin J-10B further upgraded by PAF.



I think we haven't yet heard J-10B from Air Chief, have we?


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## Donatello

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> PAF will be gettin J-10B further upgraded by PAF.



That's a vague statement.

What kind of upgrades? Because avionics and structure both play a crucial role along with engine. If they are spend the next 4 years on development, actually starting in 2008 when the contract was signed, we might expect something big. This maybe due to fact that maybe the structure is ready, engine is chosen but they are waiting on the avionics.....which might be done by 2013. Kinda makes me wonder If it's a AESA radar and what range...albeit similar to maybe the SU 30...though with the induction of APG 68V9 with F-16s, our pilots already have a long range radar..


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## Luftwaffe

Simply PAF would be getting full FC-20/J-10B package loaded and ready by 2013 through 2015 with weapons and avionics some what in the class of block 60/EF-2000/rafale with performance parameters exceeding gripen NG and behind EF-2000/rafale.


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## SBD-3

Luftwaffe said:


> Simply PAF would be getting full FC-20/J-10B package loaded and ready by 2013 through 2015 with weapons and avionics some what in the class of block 60/EF-2000/rafale with performance parameters exceeding gripen NG and behind EF-2000/rafale.


well only thing that i can think of is that PAF first want PLAAF to evaluate the platform and see how it performs and then will decide to buy it


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## Quwa

There are a few reports saying that J-10B was developed with Pakistan in mind...


> At the end of 2008 Chinese reports emerged of a new variant of the J-10 testing at Chendgu, and images soon emerges of what is called the &#8220;J-10B,&#8221; which has a redesigned engine air intake, a new infrared search and tracking (IRST) device and what may be a new AESA radar. Russian sources suggest that an early Russian Phazotron Corporation AESA radar sold to China in the mid-1990s may have formed the basis for the new Chinese radar. Some reports also suggest that the J-10B is primarily intended to meet a requirement from Pakistan. These modifications point to the J-10 having evolved rapidly toward a 4+ generation level of capability


International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Chinas Aviation Sector: Building Toward World Class Capabilities

And others suggest that PAF might get upwards 100~150 FC-20/J-10B:
Pakistan signs deal for Chinese J-10 fighters

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## shanixee

Luftwaffe said:


> Simply PAF would be getting full FC-20/J-10B package loaded and ready by 2013 through 2015 with weapons and avionics some what in the class of block 60/EF-2000/rafale with performance parameters exceeding gripen NG and behind EF-2000/rafale.



how do u know al this..????


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## SBD-3

shanixee said:


> how do u know al this..????



cuz he's been a regular poster


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## Nahraf

shanixee said:


> how do u know al this..????



These are rumors, myths, and tidbits of information mixed together since there are no facts available. Hopefully FC-20 project will be as successful as JF-17 project.


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## SBD-3

Nahraf said:


> These are rumors, myths, and tidbits of information mixed together since there are no facts available. Hopefully FC-20 project will be as successful as JF-17 project.


J-10B is about to be inducted..so what that means is that plane has taken the majority of pain involved in testing phase ...only significant challenge for FC-20 will be the integration of Western systems in Platform (or design refinement if required).... FC-20 will be rocking the Pakistani Skies soon bro Inshallah


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## SBD-3

here is an interesting piece of info


> J-10B Performance Analysis
> J-10B testing machine latest photos of gray paint has been out. J-10B should have several states, we now see one of them. This type may be related with the export model of Pakistan, but it is our J-10B.
> 
> 
> 1: Significant changes
> 
> J-10B looks the most obvious change is the inlet to DSI ("clam" style) (non-inlet boundary layer separated Road) inlet.
> With the original adjustable inlet dual 3 compared to wave system, DSI can play to reduce weight, increase stealth capability to increase the intake efficiency, reduce costs and increase reliability function. As a model and all-area air fighter, J-10 has a relatively high speed at height requirements, for the use of a complex wave system of binary 3 adjustable inlet, it has a higher than SU-27, F- 16 more excellent high-altitude high-speed capabilities, as is J-10 has just made public a statement that he was one of the reasons 3.5 generation fighter. But such large weight of the inlet structure; order to strengthen the structure of the additional six ribs on the role of stealth damage greatly criticized by unscrupulous people, while the 3rd generation, 3.5 generation of aircraft ribs are common. DSI intake inlet and lighter than conventional, compared to the original inlet, greatly reduced structural weight. J-10 SU-27 has good than a lot of maneuverability, the only regret is that the engine thrust is not big enough reasons, the thrust to weight ratio, stability has been the subject of suspicion hovering ability. DSI will undoubtedly increase the adoption of J-10B thrust-weight ratio, stability, performance, and the whole plane circled mobility plays a significant role. Plus benefits in other areas, DSI performance on the J-10B obvious effect. DSI as a 4-generation technology, the FC-1 when he first appeared on the altar in the army caused a huge stir in the J-10B is also the unanimous choice on the possible applications.
> J-10B is another significant change in its nose radome. The nose radome combination with backward inclined to slash office, learned that that its equipment was AESA (active phased array radar).
> 
> J-10 is the 1473 original equipment flat slot array radar, is the 3rd generation technology; AESA is four-generation technology. AESA longer detection range, higher accuracy, reflecting the faster, more capable handling multi-objective, more reliable; have more updated use function; adopting some technology, stealth stronger. AESA AESA's use of the Chinese fighter radar in the area and the European stand on the same starting line. Under the photos show, J-10B radar diameter smaller than the original, this may be due to the use of AESA, it do not then the diameter of the original so great. Smaller diameter reduces wind resistance head, help to improve the flight speed. Another change is the J-10B from the conical head into a flat circle, to play on the air inlet before entering the pre-compression. Head slightly downward, to improve the vision.
> Nose droop angle of attack increased, improved mobility.
> 
> Photos from the front view, J-10B switched to diffraction HUD, the installation of the IRST (optical detection system).
> 
> Diffraction HUD, also known as wide-angle holographic HUD. Compared with the refraction HUD, its larger field of view (with help of weapons targeting and night flying), location perspective rate, a higher reflectivity characters.
> 
> Passive optical detection technology is the trend of the early 21st century, both the Air Force or the Navy also. As passive detection to avoid exposure to the whereabouts of their firing radar and avoid arouse his suspicions. The early 21st century infrared detection devices must not only be able to Discovery location, but also to conduct thermal imaging, in addition to increasing the performance of enemy detection accuracy, increase the accuracy of infrared missiles, fighter planes have also made an unexpected self-defense capabilities - to intercept air to air missile. In fact the photoelectric detection device said to be the trend of the early 21st century, a friend who is very sorry the north - Russia - the early 1980s, SU-27 and MiG-29, the photoelectric detector has become the necessary equipment, the West until the new generation of fighters (the West 4th generation) began to use, it might be the former East Germany after German reunification MiG-29 brought to Europe so that attention to the impact of the technology. Installation of this type is said IRST "60KM Department in tracking stealth aircraft, 30KM to 50KM away with identification on the enemy, show enemy formation, the number of statistical enemy aircraft, missiles to provide guidance on the ability"; if the allegations are true , that is the world's advanced level.
> 
> As can be seen from the photos, J-10B may use the composite rack.
> Composite rack mounted with the same mount point more than pieces of weapons and the ability to significantly increase the number of weapons mounted on the improvement of ground attack role is great. J-10 as an air-superiority fighter, although it has a strong potential for ground attack, but the past performance is not obvious. J-10B's use of composite pylons that its formal conversion to multi-purpose fighter.
> It is reported that J-10B machine increases the fuel tank, increasing the wing area, there are claims that an increase of 4&#37;.
> 
> J-10B, another significant change is the vertical tail to install an electronic module. This shows that have greatly strengthened its electronic warfare capability.
> 
> The other is the horizontal tail cutting tip, airspeed cancellation changed.F-10B cut tail tip, ventral fin cutting tip, useful to improve the aircraft's high-speed performance. Not much here to do comments.
> 
> Has been questioned before the J-10B "DSI inlet" of the change, fearing it will affect the J-10B high-speed performance, it now appears that due to ignorance and excess. J-10B's "DSI Inlet" will be designed to be placed on the 2.0MH, canard fly-in the 4th generation systems excellent balance of high / low speed performance. Actual flight test results show that, "J-10B high-altitude high-speed better than the J-10A, mobile quality and better", its full flight envelope (0 ~ 2.3MH) stages are better acceleration performance and stable hover performance improvement is gratifying.
> 
> 
> 2. Stealth Performance
> 
> Alleged use of integrated stealth technology, J-10B radar reflection area of less than the J-10A an order of magnitude. *In this case, the stealth performance and double the wind (both in Europe and most advanced fighter) is similar to radar reflection area of less than 1.*
> 
> 
> 3. Avionics and weapons systems
> 
> Although the J-10B enhance aerodynamic performance of the other people surprise, but some people say, J-10B real highlight is its avionics and weapons upgrade.
> J-10B, as the fourth generation of fighter avionics test aircraft, the avionics system is pretty good. &#8221; Someone said: "In fact, 10B on the AESA is not even worth very excited - the other avionics and significance of the pace of change is much greater than one kind of aircraft can be loaded in the AESA. 10B avionics architecture and performance of a kind of degree, with reference to the Po columns F-22 standards, such as an independent flight control, fire control replaced by a new generation of integrated CIP (Common Signal Processor). SU-35 is closer to Western standards, natural more clearly. But now the situation seems, SU-35 is the standard Western-type levels of the three generations later. "
> 
> According to the now popular aircraft performance evaluation formula:
> 
> Machine performance = speed &#215; mobility (square) &#215; Avionics (cubic) &#215; weapons (four square)
> 
> J-10B overall avionics upgrade (on behalf of the nearly 3.5 to nearly 4 generations), will bring his quality to enhance combat capability.
> 
> Well weapons systems, in addition to precision strikes all kinds of ammunition, four generations in the remote, short-range air to air missile should be enough. Four generations of fighting to be heard before the missile to equip the rumors.
> 
> 
> 4. Future development
> 
> Someone Language: In fact, the modified J10 will always exist, one increased (re-4 (5) pre-service) needs of the Air Force air power, and second, to share part of the re-4 (5) the risk of the development, re-4 (5 ) is an independent research funding, J10 of the modification is independent funding, J10 of the modification to the 4th generation (5) approaches, share the burden of re-4 (5) the risks of scientific research and experiment on the re-4 (5) development of play multiplier effect, improved version of the ultimate vest will spend a standard 4-generation (5) in the single machine supporting avionics.
> 
> 5.Conclusion
> With the J-10B, we do not envy double the In addition to the engine. &#12290; . &#12290; .
> 
> Is uncertain whether the current use of the J-10B "Flying fire push" integration of technology, but the J-10B will use.
> The J-10B is now clear experimental aircraft engines are installed or the original AL-31FN, may be improved with a greater thrust. Planned J-10B standard configuration should be "too by changing the" engine, thrust 142 KN.If the J-10B is equipped with a greater thrust of the "Taihang change." &#12290; . &#12290; .
> 
> Unfortunately, even the "Taihang", and still is problematic. "Taihang change", to drag the progress of the.
> Of course, we You Liangshou preparation, the Russian AL-31FN M1, or is said that chickens lay eggs in Russia by the 99M2, can meet the requirements. But the engine also on large-scale imports of you constantly.
> We only hope the dawn companies hope they can learn, practical and strict, to progress to catch up to.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

I hate the guys who write these articles damn! Cant they use correct english?


----------



## Luftwaffe

*Nahraf..These are rumors, myths, and tidbits of information mixed together since there are no facts available. Hopefully FC-20 project will be as successful as JF-17 project. *

Actually what we know of J-10A is already impressive. Facts like AESA radar in development for J-10B and so on. I would suggest news ones to go through start off with page 1 of J-10 thread.


----------



## Super Falcon

hope we get this jet because this jet since 2005 is on pappers and on tongues but nothing has happened to buy it


----------



## SBD-3

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> I hate the guys who write these articles damn! Cant they use correct english?



its actually chinglish (translated from Chinese)......
but lemme sum this up for you
1- Improved design with more fuel carrying capacity and 4&#37; larger wings
2- Greater Maneuverability 
3- RCS less than 1
4- Top speeds 2-2.3 Mach
5- Racks for carrying more weapons
6- Diffraction HUD, also known as wide-angle holographic HUD,independent flight control and fire control replaced by a new generation of integrated CIP (Common Signal Processor)
7- AESA

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## Donatello

Nothing is what it seems.

Not until our boys actually fly these birds home.


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## Quwa

Super Falcon said:


> hope we get this jet because this jet since 2005 is on pappers and on tongues but nothing has happened to buy it


In 2005 there was no J-10B (i.e. 4.5 gen) variant...and J-10B first flew in 2008 and has since been in testing. Until the 2014~2015 initial delivery date, we can expect the J-10B to undergo further improvements and additions. The additional time will allow us to acquire a long-range AESA radar alongside a top notch ECM/EW kit in league of whats used on Rafale & Typhoon; ensure integration of next-generation weapon-systems in class of Meteor and IRIS-T; and potentially secure a higher performance engine with TVC and maybe even super-cruise. Remember, FC-20 is PAF's answer to the Indian MRCA...and according to the Chinese, the J-10B will likely end up utilizing the subsystems (avionics, ECM/EW, etc) of the 5th generation fighters.

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## Nahraf

Luftwaffe said:


> *Nahraf..These are rumors, myths, and tidbits of information mixed together since there are no facts available. Hopefully FC-20 project will be as successful as JF-17 project. *
> 
> Actually what we know of J-10A is already impressive. Facts like AESA radar in development for J-10B and so on. I would suggest news ones to go through start off with page 1 of J-10 thread.



We were specifically discussing the capabilities of FC-20. J-10B is an upgraded variant of the J-10A. While FC-20 is export version of J-10B. We know many capabilities of J-10A and take it as a base model. What I am saying is that we do not know the enhanced capabilities of FC-20.


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## SBD-3

Nahraf said:


> We were specifically discussing the capabilities of FC-20. J-10B is an upgraded variant of the J-10A. While FC-20 is export version of J-10B. We know many capabilities of J-10A and take it as a base model. What I am saying is that we do not know the enhanced capabilities of FC-20.


 but we can certainly say that they will be at least on par with J-10B and you can see what goodies are there on J-10B


----------



## SBD-3

penumbra said:


> Nothing is what it seems.
> 
> Not until our boys actually fly these birds home.



yes indeed it may be and may not be....but given the ongoing JXX development, Chinese 4.5th gens will certainly benifit and work as test beds for these systems......


----------



## SQ8

Mark Sien said:


> In 2005 there was no J-10B (i.e. 4.5 gen) variant...and J-10B first flew in 2008 and has since been in testing. Until the 2014~2015 initial delivery date, we can expect the J-10B to undergo further improvements and additions. The additional time will allow us to acquire a long-range AESA radar alongside a top notch ECM/EW kit in league of whats used on Rafale & Typhoon; ensure integration of next-generation weapon-systems in class of Meteor and IRIS-T; and potentially secure a higher performance engine with TVC and maybe even super-cruise. Remember, *FC-20 is PAF's answer to the Indian MRCA*...and according to the Chinese, the J-10B will likely end up utilizing the subsystems (avionics, ECM/EW, etc) of the 5th generation fighters.



Its a nice jet, But No answer.. I think its about time we stop thinking of tit for tat countering matches and instead focus on operational needs and what matches that...
The FC-20 probably fits the bill for long range strike escort for the PAF.. considering most of the Falcons will be delegated to the deeper strategic strikes. 
India's purchase too is for its own needs and not a "counter" to anything.

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## Kompromat

santro said:


> Its a nice jet, But No answer.. I think its about time we stop thinking of tit for tat countering matches and instead focus on operational needs and what matches that...
> The FC-20 probably fits the bill for long range strike escort for the PAF.. considering most of the Falcons will be delegated to the deeper strategic strikes.
> India's purchase too is for its own needs and not a "counter" to anything.



I dont agree with that assessment , FC-20(J-10B) is a state of the art fighter which is as capable as any jet India would field up after MMRCA competition.

PAF Tends to field up true "Multirole" fighter jets ie F-16's which meet up most of our requirements.

This is why PAF Engineers are working closely in FC-20 Program to get their needs catered in the Development.

Having said that , the idea that Fc-20 is a Bill fitting aircraft that could escort the Long range strikes is nonsense.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Indian mindset is of air dominance and air superiority---and that is what reflects in their equipment---the su 30. Once you have those systems in place---to counter it---anything less than that doesnot work.

The counter effect doesnot have to match in numbers---one on one---but in substance and material---whereas the opponent has 120 aircraft on their side---on our side---we can do very well with 36 to 48 aircraft. We can't match them in numbers---we don't need to match them in numbers.

War is more of a psychological game and the weapons systems and air dominance fighters of today have really taken it to a diiferent level.

The AIR DOMINANCE FGHTER is not a fighter of the old---it is not the fighter that our grand daddy grew up with. True to its name---it is what it says. It is meant for air superiority---that is what its job is---that is what it is designed for---and in the end that is what it will deliver.

Now where inida has gone onto the right in your face large---massive---aggressive kind of aircraft---pak still wants to stay with sleek---slender---tactical---easy to operate and easy to maintain kind of aircrafts. Two air forces---right next to each other---two different kind of aircrafts for air superiority and each one of them defines an image as to how they would get into the battlefield.

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## Quwa

santro said:


> Its a nice jet, But No answer.. I think its about time we stop thinking of tit for tat countering matches and instead focus on operational needs and what matches that...
> The FC-20 probably fits the bill for long range strike escort for the PAF.. considering most of the Falcons will be delegated to the deeper strategic strikes.
> India's purchase too is for its own needs and not a "counter" to anything.


FC-20 is a 4+/4.5 generation fighter like the MMRCA...it is the answer.

AS for long-range strike into India, this will primarily be conducted through the use of long-range stand-off weapon-systems, such as Ra'ad, H2/H4 etc. Interestingly, the fighters to be equipped with these will be FC-20 and JF-17. 

Higher risk missions may involve ARMs (MAR-1), A2G missiles (similar to AASM), and JDAM/PGBs - but F-16 will not be the only fighter to be equipped with these weapons. Sure, F-16 has the JDAM-series...but JF-17 and FC-20 can potentially use the Denel Umbani or Ukrainian BAU-01K, which essentially use the same concept. But even then, the Denel Umbani can apparently go up to 120km with specific configurations, and with a module, up to 200km range. 

Although, I do believe more priority needs to be put into developing a 1000~1200km ALCM similar to JASSM as well as a tactical <300km ALCM like Storm Shadow.

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## SBD-3

Black Blood said:


> I dont agree with that assessment , FC-20(J-10B) is a state of the art fighter which is as capable as any jet India would field up after MMRCA competition.
> 
> PAF Tends to field up true "Multirole" fighter jets ie F-16's which meet up most of our requirements.
> 
> This is why PAF Engineers are working closely in FC-20 Program to get their needs catered in the Development.
> 
> Having said that , the idea that Fc-20 is a Bill fitting aircraft that could escort the Long range strikes is nonsense.



I agree with santro that FC-20 will be a more of a A2A superiority deterrence. We already have a decent number of MRFs. What PAF now needs is a capable aircraft that can shelter them from ASFs or interceptors. According to Chinese posters even though the A2G in J-10B is improved but A2A is improved manifold. Which Implies that PAF is looking to enhance its strike capability but also a better interception of incoming strike package where FC-20s may be used to take out escorts while Thunders or Vipers to engage the strike package


----------



## siegecrossbow

I was insane enough to go through every single comment on this thread and I don't think this question has been asked. What is the NATO callsign for the J-10. I know, like everyone on this forum, that the nickname is "Vigorous Dragon" but that doesn't follow the NATO protocol of starting the names of fighters with the letter F. Besides, isn't Vigorous Dragon a bit of a mouthful to say and as a result defeats the purpose of the callsign in the first place?

I've asked this on sinodefence but no one seems to know the answer. Hopefully someone here could enlighten me. Thanks.


----------



## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> I was insane enough to go through every single comment on this thread and I don't think this question has been asked. What is the NATO callsign for the J-10. I know, like everyone on this forum, that the nickname is "Vigorous Dragon" but that doesn't follow the NATO protocol of starting the names of fighters with the letter F. Besides, isn't Vigorous Dragon a bit of a mouthful to say and as a result defeats the purpose of the callsign in the first place?
> 
> I've asked this on sinodefence but no one seems to know the answer. Hopefully someone here could enlighten me. Thanks.



it may be f-10 vanguard

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## siegecrossbow

I do hope that NATO goes by the Pakistani designation. Vanguard is a great name and sure beats unpleasant names like frogfoot, fishbed, and even faggot.


----------



## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> I do hope that NATO goes by the Pakistani designation. Vanguard is a great name and sure beats unpleasant names like frogfoot, fishbed, and even faggot.


Yeah! I dont know.... J-7 is also named as skybolt....I haven't even heard the NATO designation for JFT...AFA my guess J-11's designation is flanker B ryt?


----------



## Indiarox

hasnain0099 said:


> Yeah! I dont know.... J-7 is also named as skybolt....I haven't even heard the NATO designation for JFT...AFA my guess J-11's designation is flanker B ryt?



Isn't Flanker designation only give to Sukhoi 's of the T-10 series(T-10 Flanker A)
Falkner-B is the Designation for the Su-27


----------



## Indiarox

siegecrossbow said:


> I do hope that NATO goes by the Pakistani designation. Vanguard is a great name and sure beats unpleasant names like frogfoot, fishbed, and even faggot.



Those names a pathetic when compared to the Planes they designated who were really Awesome .

Vanguard would be a nice name for the F-10

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## SBD-3

Indiarox said:


> Isn't Flanker designation only give to Sukhoi 's of the T-10 series(T-10 Flanker A)
> Falkner-B is the Designation for the Su-27



I think Whole SU series is generally called Flanker...SU-35 is specifically called Super Flanker and Su-37 is named a terminator


----------



## siegecrossbow

hasnain0099 said:


> Yeah! I dont know.... J-7 is also named as skybolt....I haven't even heard the NATO designation for JFT...AFA my guess J-11's designation is flanker B ryt?



Indiarox is right. The NATO dsignation for all variations of J-11, as far as I know, is just Flanker. Perhaps they are running out of ideas for names that start with F .


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## SBD-3

here is good source enjoy!
Designation-Systems.Net


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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> Indiarox is right. The NATO dsignation for all variations of J-11, as far as I know, is just Flanker. Perhaps they are running out of ideas for names that start with F .



But nothing much they can do, they can't give a new name to improved variant say F-16 Blocks and F-15 and 18 Varients ...."super" is a good addition IMHO


----------



## Indiarox

hasnain0099 said:


> I think Whole SU series is generally called Flanker...SU-35 is specifically called Super Flanker and Su-37 is named a terminator



The Flanker thing caught on after the T-10 was launched and the 27,30 30MKI are all highly modified spin-offs of the T-10and hence the Name Flanker.All air craft built by Sukhoi after it built were derivatives of the T-10.

The only exception is the S-37(Su-47) which was a test bed for the T-50 series of Aircraft and hence it got a different name.

Su-35 is said to be the latest most advanced and Last of the T-10 series hence it is referred to as the "Super flanker "or "The Last Flanker"


----------



## SBD-3

Indiarox said:


> The Flanker thing caught on after the T-10 was launched and the 27,30 30MKI are all highly modified spin-offs of the T-10and hence the Name Flanker.All air craft built by Sukhoi after it built were derivatives of the T-10.
> 
> The only exception is the S-37(Su-47) which was a test bed for the T-50 series of Aircraft and hence it got a different name.
> 
> Su-35 is said to be the latest most advanced and Last of the T-10 series hence it is referred to as the "Super flanker "or "The Last Flanker"



I was referring to SU-37 which was a derivative of SU-35 referred to as Terminator


----------



## Indiarox

hasnain0099 said:


> I was referring to SU-37 which was a derivative of SU-35 referred to as Terminator



I guess they got sick of messing up the letters after the name Flanker


----------



## Indiarox

siegecrossbow said:


> Indiarox is right. The NATO dsignation for all variations of J-11, as far as I know, is just Flanker. Perhaps they are running out of ideas for names that start with F .



Wonder what they are going to name the T-50 series.


----------



## siegecrossbow

Indiarox said:


> Wonder what they are going to name the T-50 series.



Hopefully they'll keep the words "stealth", "silent", and "dark" out of it. Damn I'm tired of the cliched naming conventions.

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## Indiarox

siegecrossbow said:


> Hopefully they'll keep the words "stealth", "silent", and "dark" out of it. Damn I'm tired of the cliched naming conventions.



People start naming thins stealth this or that bring in a new radar it aint so stealthy any more


----------



## Luftwaffe

Mods peek into this thead its going off..


----------



## siegecrossbow

Sorry for going off topic let me try to remedy that with some pictures of J-10's manufacturing facility.


----------



## SBD-3

not working man!!!


----------



## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Indian mindset is of air dominance and air superiority---and that is what reflects in their equipment---the su 30. Once you have those systems in place---to counter it---anything less than that doesnot work.
> 
> The counter effect doesnot have to match in numbers---one on one---but in substance and material---whereas the opponent has 120 aircraft on their side---on our side---we can do very well with 36 to 48 aircraft. We can't match them in numbers---we don't need to match them in numbers.
> 
> War is more of a psychological game and the weapons systems and air dominance fighters of today have really taken it to a diiferent level.
> 
> The AIR DOMINANCE FGHTER is not a fighter of the old---it is not the fighter that our grand daddy grew up with. True to its name---it is what it says. It is meant for air superiority---that is what its job is---that is what it is designed for---and in the end that is what it will deliver.
> 
> Now where inida has gone onto the right in your face large---massive---aggressive kind of aircraft---pak still wants to stay with sleek---slender---tactical---easy to operate and easy to maintain kind of aircrafts. Two air forces---right next to each other---two different kind of aircrafts for air superiority and each one of them defines an image as to how they would get into the battlefield.




I would like to point one thing out...

SU30 might be India's Air superiority fighter it certainly isn't for the rest of the world.

SU30's main advantage might be it's long range Radar, which unless Indians prove in Red Flag or Green Flag, we still can't say anything as it is not combat proven.


With the advent of the APG 68 v9 on most PAF f-16s, with ranges greater than 250km, i don't see how SU30 can still retain that untested edge.


Lastly, we will have Patrolling AWACs and a plane like SU30 would light up the radar screen from way long distance and too easily, not to mention the exact type of weapons it is carrying.


----------



## MastanKhan

penumbra said:


> I would like to point one thing out...
> 
> SU30 might be India's Air superiority fighter it certainly isn't for the rest of the world.
> 
> SU30's main advantage might be it's long range Radar, which unless Indians prove in Red Flag or Green Flag, we still can't say anything as it is not combat proven.
> 
> 
> With the advent of the APG 68 v9 on most PAF f-16s, with ranges greater than 250km, i don't see how SU30 can still retain that untested edge.
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Radar is just a small part of the problem---the real problems are hanging under the wings and are 8 in number.
> 
> If you want to overcome the enemy---then fear its power---that would force you to prepare better to confront the threat.


----------



## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> penumbra said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to point one thing out...
> 
> SU30 might be India's Air superiority fighter it certainly isn't for the rest of the world.
> 
> SU30's main advantage might be it's long range Radar, which unless Indians prove in Red Flag or Green Flag, we still can't say anything as it is not combat proven.
> 
> 
> With the advent of the APG 68 v9 on most PAF f-16s, with ranges greater than 250km, i don't see how SU30 can still retain that untested edge.
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Radar is just a small part of the problem---the real problems are hanging under the wings and are 8 in number.
> 
> If you want to overcome the enemy---then fear its power---that would force you to prepare better to confront the threat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, but in cost of one SU30MKI PAF can have two JF-17s.
> 
> As i said, even if SU30 are on strike, PAF can scramble JF-17s which has really low RCS. Plus they can always switch their radar off and get vectored by AWACs or Ground controllers.....and find the SU30.....the thing is that for one SU30 we can have two JF17s.
> 
> Out running and out beating two jf-17s is going to be really tough for one SU30....
Click to expand...

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## AVIAN

penumbra said:


> MastanKhan said:
> 
> 
> 
> True, but in cost of one SU30MKI PAF can have two JF-17s.
> 
> As i said, even if SU30 are on strike, PAF can scramble JF-17s which has really low RCS. Plus they can always switch their radar off and get vectored by AWACs or Ground controllers.....and find the SU30.....the thing is that for one SU30 we can have two JF17s.
> 
> Out running and out beating two jf-17s is going to be really tough for one SU30....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is the range, endurance as well as battle field management of a particuler jet will determine its advantage over its opponents. You can have a 10 JF-17's against One Flanker, but you cannot take out the same unless you have Opeational Battlefield Management in line with PAF's current resources to match its tactics and techniques. At the same time, there is a an increasing dependency on stand off weapon as well as well establish full proof ECM and jamming system which will make life very difficult for any Ground based radar or Awacs to cop with state of the art fighters.
Click to expand...


----------



## SBD-3

AVIAN said:


> penumbra said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is the range, endurance as well as battle field management of a particuler jet will determine its advantage over its opponents. You can have a 10 JF-17's against One Flanker, but you cannot take out the same unless you have Opeational Battlefield Management in line with PAF's current resources to match its tactics and techniques. At the same time, there is a an increasing dependency on stand off weapon as well as well establish full proof ECM and jamming system which will make life very difficult for any Ground based radar or Awacs to cop with state of the art fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so the point is..........?????
Click to expand...


----------



## rockstarIN

penumbra said:


> MastanKhan said:
> 
> 
> 
> True, but in cost of one SU30MKI PAF can have two JF-17s.
> 
> As i said, even if SU30 are on strike, PAF can scramble JF-17s which has really low RCS. Plus they can always switch their radar off and get vectored by AWACs or Ground controllers.....and find the SU30.....the thing is that for one SU30 we can have two JF17s.
> 
> Out running and out beating two jf-17s is going to be really tough for one SU30....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi..
> 
> Just want to share something..
> 
> I think Indian air force formation will not consist only one or more Su-30s.
> 
> As did in Cope India-04 exercise, it will be a combination of Su-30s, Mig-29/Mirage-2000H + few Mig-21 Bison's.
> 
> There is high chance that from this formation, Su-30 fire long range Air to Air Missiles to the PAF interceptors and to disengage/stay away from the visual range of the air battle where as the others move on.
> 
> As the USAF pilots are very impressed with the Mig-21 performance in the excercise as track all other fighters in the radars but the Mach-2,BVR capable Mig-21s made them sweat.
Click to expand...


----------



## siegecrossbow

penumbra said:


> MastanKhan said:
> 
> 
> 
> True, but in cost of one SU30MKI PAF can have two JF-17s.
> 
> As i said, even if SU30 are on strike, PAF can scramble JF-17s which has really low RCS. Plus they can always switch their radar off and get vectored by AWACs or Ground controllers.....and find the SU30.....the thing is that for one SU30 we can have two JF17s.
> 
> Out running and out beating two jf-17s is going to be really tough for one SU30....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you really think about it light and medium fighters like the F-16, JF-17, and J-10 are the better choice for the Pakistani Air Force than heavy fighters. While heavy fighters have longer range, superior weapons load, and better radar/avionics you have to keep in mind that they are also more expensive. Air defence, not long range penetration strikes, is the main purpose of the Pakistani Air Force and the light fighters, despite their short range, could cover most of Pakistan quite well.
Click to expand...

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## Donatello

rockstar said:


> penumbra said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi..
> 
> Just want to share something..
> 
> I think Indian air force formation will not consist only one or more Su-30s.
> 
> As did in Cope India-04 exercise, it will be a combination of Su-30s, Mig-29/Mirage-2000H + few Mig-21 Bison's.
> 
> There is high chance that from this formation, Su-30 fire long range Air to Air Missiles to the PAF interceptors and to disengage/stay away from the visual range of the air battle where as the others move on.
> 
> As the USAF pilots are very impressed with the Mig-21 performance in the excercise as track all other fighters in the radars but the Mach-2,BVR capable Mig-21s made them sweat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because you had to step in...
> 
> 
> PAF also did exercises called High mark in which JF-17s were flown alongside Mirage, F-7, F-16 and A5s.
> 
> 
> So they pretty much know what they are doing.
> 
> 
> Also, by 2015 we will have 3 types of aircraft. All multi-role. So it will be easy to manage them.
Click to expand...


----------



## siegecrossbow

I tried to post some images of the J-10 manufacturing facility recently leaked by CCTV but the images won't show up. Now I am going to try reposting the links.

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## no_name

^^^ try uploading it to site like imageshack (free) and then link from there so the pics don't disappear.

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## MastanKhan

penumbra said:


> MastanKhan said:
> 
> 
> 
> True, but in cost of one SU30MKI PAF can have two JF-17s.
> 
> As i said, even if SU30 are on strike, PAF can scramble JF-17s which has really low RCS. Plus they can always switch their radar off and get vectored by AWACs or Ground controllers.....and find the SU30.....the thing is that for one SU30 we can have two JF17s.
> 
> Out running and out beating two jf-17s is going to be really tough for one SU30....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> No it is not---first of all---iaf has 120 su 30's---pak has only 16---. Secondly---in a true bvr scenario---a batch of 4 jf 17's will be taken out by one su 30---because of its 8 bvr---two bvr's per aircraft---.
> 
> Thirdly---the su 30 doesnot need to get into close range---it can technically launch all its bvr's---turn away from the battle field---do the F22.
> 
> Now the Jf 17's are busy taking evasive measures against the missiles---when the second su 30 approaches within its 90% kill range of bvr and again launches two missiles each at those 4 jf 17---.
> 
> There is no pilot in the world that can escape two missiles at one time---leave alone 4 missiles---.
> 
> Pakistan's only hope is the amraams---which have a longer kill range than the russian missiles. The sd 10 equipped jf won't work---.
> 
> Now if the su 30 is over pak territory---the situation may become WVR----.
> 
> For a layman---each missile has a range within which the adversary has a 90 or 95 % chance of being hit. THe bvr missile on the su 30 has a loneger range than that of the sd 10.
> 
> Now as far as the F 16 and the amraam is concerned---the amraam will come out ahead.
> 
> But our real problem is the iaf will beat us up with numbers---. The heavy dutry air dominance fighters will rule the air ----there are no ifs and buts about it. The massive number of missiles that they carry are a force multiplier by itself.
> 
> For example---one jf 17 will carry----2 sd 10's----one su 30 will cary 8 bvr's----so one su 30 is equal to 4 jf 17's in weapons load.
> 
> Pakistanis must understand that the SU 30 is the pride of the russian fleet---this plane was designed to take on the F 15's and the USAF and not an overrated paf.
> 
> I understand that it is good to be nationalistic and love your country---but it needs more than that to make it a potent offencive and defencive force.
> 
> Now---if you were talking about the F 16 and the combination of J 10B's---I would say---yes---it is a threatening scenario for the iaf---but not the jf 17.
> 
> You have to look at what JF 17 is replacing.
Click to expand...

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## gowthamraj

Is it confirmed that Pakistan purchased j-10


----------



## razgriz19

well i guess ur saying that jft equiped with sd-10 wont work because of sd-10's limited range, right?
welll then f-16s with amraam c-5 wont work either because russian vympel has more range than amraam!!!!

And PAF wont use thunders as interceptors!
f-16s has that job, and btw wat makes u think that thunders' pilots wouldn't fire missiles?


----------



## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> penumbra said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> No it is not---first of all---iaf has 120 su 30's---pak has only 16---. Secondly---in a true bvr scenario---a batch of 4 jf 17's will be taken out by one su 30---because of its 8 bvr---two bvr's per aircraft---.
> 
> Thirdly---the su 30 doesnot need to get into close range---it can technically launch all its bvr's---turn away from the battle field---do the F22.
> 
> Now the Jf 17's are busy taking evasive measures against the missiles---when the second su 30 approaches within its 90% kill range of bvr and again launches two missiles each at those 4 jf 17---.
> 
> There is no pilot in the world that can escape two missiles at one time---leave alone 4 missiles---.
> 
> Pakistan's only hope is the amraams---which have a longer kill range than the russian missiles. The sd 10 equipped jf won't work---.
> 
> Now if the su 30 is over pak territory---the situation may become WVR----.
> 
> For a layman---each missile has a range within which the adversary has a 90 or 95 % chance of being hit. THe bvr missile on the su 30 has a loneger range than that of the sd 10.
> 
> Now as far as the F 16 and the amraam is concerned---the amraam will come out ahead.
> 
> But our real problem is the iaf will beat us up with numbers---. The heavy dutry air dominance fighters will rule the air ----there are no ifs and buts about it. The massive number of missiles that they carry are a force multiplier by itself.
> 
> For example---one jf 17 will carry----2 sd 10's----one su 30 will cary 8 bvr's----so one su 30 is equal to 4 jf 17's in weapons load.
> 
> Pakistanis must understand that the SU 30 is the pride of the russian fleet---this plane was designed to take on the F 15's and the USAF and not an overrated paf.
> 
> I understand that it is good to be nationalistic and love your country---but it needs more than that to make it a potent offencive and defencive force.
> 
> Now---if you were talking about the F 16 and the combination of J 10B's---I would say---yes---it is a threatening scenario for the iaf---but not the jf 17.
> 
> You have to look at what JF 17 is replacing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You do know that SU30 has blind spots and also the fact that SU30 won't simply meet JF-17 head on??
> 
> Right?
> 
> 
> Also, doesn't matter what range the Radar has because Missile is limitied by it's own range. Plus depending on the guidance you need Radar pointing in the target zone to guide.
> 
> 
> Much more complex scenario than what you say here.....
> 
> 
> In anycase your post says 1 Su30 can take out 4 JF-17s? So why upgrade? Lets keep flying the F-7 and Mirage.
Click to expand...


----------



## MastanKhan

razgriz19 said:


> well i guess ur saying that jft equiped with sd-10 wont work because of sd-10's limited range, right?
> welll then f-16s with amraam c-5 wont work either because russian vympel has more range than amraam!!!!
> 
> And PAF wont use thunders as interceptors!
> f-16s has that job, and btw wat makes u think that thunders' pilots wouldn't fire missiles?



Hi,

A simply study of physics will suffice---just draw up some tangents.

The 90-95 &#37; kill ratio range of the amraam is much higher than the russian long range.

But if the Vympel has a longer 90% ratio kill range higher to the amraam---then you have some serious issues.


----------



## MastanKhan

penumbra said:


> MastanKhan said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do know that SU30 has blind spots and also the fact that SU30 won't simply meet JF-17 head on??
> 
> Right?
> 
> 
> Also, doesn't matter what range the Radar has because Missile is limitied by it's own range. Plus depending on the guidance you need Radar pointing in the target zone to guide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Due to the geographic positioning of india in relation to pak---the location of their air bases---the higher number of heavy air dominance fighters they have---they can dictate the terms of engagement---the direction of approach---.
> 
> Paf is severly handicapped---the last 20 years of no procurement of a potent fighters is telling heavily on their capabilities.
> 
> It will take another 10 to 15 years for paf to reach its potentioal---right now they are living on BRAVADO.
Click to expand...

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## rockstarIN

MastanKhan said:


> %UOTE=razgriz19;1085743]well i guess ur saying that jft equiped with sd-10 wont work because of sd-10's limited range, right?
> welll then f-16s with amraam c-5 wont work either because russian vympel has more range than amraam!!!!
> 
> And PAF wont use thunders as interceptors!
> f-16s has that job, and btw wat makes u think that thunders' pilots wouldn't fire missiles?



Hi,

A simply study of physics will suffice---just draw up some tangents.

The 90-95 % kill ratio range of the amraam is much higher than the russian long range.

But if the Vympel has a longer 90% ratio kill range higher to the amraam---then you have some serious issues.[/QUOTE]



As of now, there is no air fight between Western amraam vs Russian R-77 yet. Though US made F-16s & F-15s shot down several Russian made Mig 29s (Iraq, Serbian), No Migs were equipped with modern radars and BVR missiles. Even in air combat exercises, no air force will allow its pilots to use their long range radars.(Su-MKI didnt use their radars during in Red Flags & USAF F-15s during Cope India Exercises.


The only BVR air battle happened when the Eritrean-Ethiopian War, where Ethiopian Su-27s shot down Eritrean Mig-29s. So the heavy air dominance fighter(Su-27) won the battle against the light weight multi role fighter(Mig-29).

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## raveolution

penumbra said:


> MastanKhan said:
> 
> 
> 
> True, but in cost of one SU30MKI PAF can have two JF-17s.
> 
> As i said, even if SU30 are on strike, PAF can scramble JF-17s which has really low RCS. Plus they can always switch their radar off and get vectored by AWACs or Ground controllers.....and find the SU30.....the thing is that for one SU30 we can have two JF17s.
> 
> Out running and out beating two jf-17s is going to be really tough for one SU30....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A very strange comment... So thinking according to your analysis, the IAF's budget is 5 times that of the PAF. So will it be 5 SU30's vs 2 JF17's?? Really!!
> 
> The number of JF-17's for the PAF is planned at 150 which may go further to 250. The number of SU-30's ordered for the IAF already stands at 270+.
Click to expand...


----------



## Jazzbot

raveolution said:


> penumbra said:
> 
> 
> 
> The number of JF-17's for the PAF is planned at 150 which may go further to 250. The number of SU-30's ordered for the IAF already stands at 270+.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and you really think that india will throw all of its SU's inside Pak air space if war break out..?
Click to expand...


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## Luftwaffe

ravolution..correction the above post that you quote is by penumbra, not MK.


----------



## PAKISTANI TIGER

su-30 out class the f-15 c so we have to very carefull about it.


----------



## PAKISTANI TIGER

what statage does the paf have to counter the su-30mkI


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## rockstarIN

PAKISTANI TIGER said:


> what statage does the paf have to counter the su-30mkI



I think viable option for PAF is to get good SAMs (S-300 & PAC-3 level) to counter + some light weight fighters since heavy air dominance fighters not available to PAF as of now (F-15 & Su-27 series). Even modern Chinese multi role fighters like j-10 is not enough.(As china buys Su-30 MKKs for this purpose, not producing more J-10s)
Even s-300 class SAMs are costly too. probably can get reverse engineering copy of s-300 from china.

Still, Su-30s+MMRCA is too hard to handle


----------



## SMC

In a defensive role, a 100 odd F-16 Block 52+ and MLU can give MKIs a good run for their money.

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## Dash

SMC said:


> In a defensive role, a 100 odd F-16 Block 52+ and MLU can give MKIs a good run for their money.


very true, a good fighter is a good fighter only when handled by a good pilot.

Wars are not own just by planes, its the over all effort.

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## SomeGuy

rockstar said:


> I think viable option for PAF is to get good SAMs (S-300 & PAC-3 level) to counter + some light weight fighters since heavy air dominance fighters not available to PAF as of now (F-15 & Su-27 series). Even modern Chinese multi role fighters like j-10 is not enough.(As china buys Su-30 MKKs for this purpose, not producing more J-10s)
> Even s-300 class SAMs are costly too. probably can get reverse engineering copy of s-300 from china.
> 
> Still, Su-30s+MMRCA is too hard to handle



Actually, it's the other way around - China is no longer buying MKK/MKK2 but developing J-10B and J-11B.


----------



## Donatello

Why do you have to make every thread into J-10 vs JF-17 vs Su30 thread?


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## Jungibaaz

rockstar said:


> I think viable option for PAF is to get good SAMs (S-300 & PAC-3 level) to counter + some light weight fighters since heavy air dominance fighters not available to PAF as of now (F-15 & Su-27 series). *Even modern Chinese multi role fighters like j-10 is not enough*.(As china buys Su-30 MKKs for this purpose, not producing more J-10s)
> Even s-300 class SAMs are costly too. probably can get reverse engineering copy of s-300 from china.
> 
> Still, Su-30s+MMRCA is too hard to handle



I think it's to early to say that MKI's are better than j-10b (fc-20).
IMO, if the j-10b gets a long range AESA radar, a modern EW site and IRST it would be close to a 4.5 gen fighter.


----------



## siegecrossbow

Jungibaaz said:


> I think it's to early to say that MKI's are better than j-10b (fc-20).
> IMO, if the j-10b gets a long range AESA radar, a modern EW site and IRST it would be close to a 4.5 gen fighter.



I think IRST was confirmed but the AESA radar hasn't been confirmed but was speculated from the shape of J-10b's nose cone. The fact that the official Chinese media refuses to even acknowledge the existence of J-10b, despite the existence of numerous images, is extremely irritating to military fans .

By the time the Chinese media finally confirms that there are 4 squadrons of J-10b in service and that they all had electronically scanned radars we'd probably be speculating about the authentic J-XX image...


----------



## TOPGUN

Dash said:


> very true, a good fighter is a good fighter only when handled by a good pilot.
> 
> Wars are not own just by planes, its the over all effort.



Agreed and those so called good pilots we have my friend.


----------



## Donatello

SomeGuy said:


> Actually, it's the other way around - China is no longer buying MKK/MKK2 but developing J-10B and J-11B.




That's the point, develop Russian technology into a copy of similar performance or improve it. And they have a long history of it.


----------



## cybertron

IAF uses russian raw tech + western tech
dats enough to counter chinese reverse engineered stuff


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## siegecrossbow

cybertron said:


> IAF uses russian raw tech + western tech
> dats enough to counter chinese reverse engineered stuff



What about self-sufficiency? If you buy foreign planes/missiles you are entirely dependent upon them in times of war. What if Russia, for one reason or another, decided to sanction you?


----------



## sab

Russian fighters like Migs and Su-30MKI are being manufactured in India for decades with license from Russia. A sanction is not going to hurt that much any more.


----------



## Patriot

Guys Don't worry about our J10.Believe me your air force will be treated well over Pakistani Skies.Now stop making OT posts here.

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## Donatello

sab said:


> Russian fighters like Migs and Su-30MKI are being manufactured in India for decades with license from Russia. A sanction is not going to hurt that much any more.




Correction...

They are not been Manufactured but Assembled.


You may make one part or two, but still the Raw materials are coming from elsewhere including the so called high-strength steel for your new ACs.

---------- Post added at 03:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:37 AM ----------




Patriot said:


> Guys Don't worry about our J10.Believe me your air force will be treated well over Pakistani Skies.Now stop making OT posts here.



Just like after Mumbai attack, threats from India of Surgical Strikes........


----------



## siegecrossbow

siegecrossbow said:


> What about self-sufficiency? If you buy foreign planes/missiles you are entirely dependent upon them in times of war. What if Russia, for one reason or another, decided to sanction you?



True. India is capable of producing and assembly most of the Su-30 MKI. However is India capable of manufacturing the PESA radar and jet engines as well? Also keep in mind that the Su-30s are compatible with Russian munition only. China stopped ordering more MK2s to invest in the J-11Bs because of this.


----------



## Quwa

Jungibaaz said:


> I think it's to early to say that MKI's are better than j-10b (fc-20).
> 
> IMO, if the j-10b gets a long range AESA radar, a modern EW site and IRST it would be close to a 4.5 gen fighter.



International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Chinas Aviation Sector: Building Toward World Class Capabilities

_Some reports also suggest that the J-10B is primarily intended to meet a requirement from Pakistan. These modifications point to the J-10 having evolved rapidly toward a 4+ generation level of capability._

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## gowthamraj

SMC said:


> In a defensive role, a 100 odd F-16 Block 52+ and MLU can give MKIs a good run for their money.



Very True 


F-16 is a battle proven with the record of 64-0. 


With PAF pilots having decades of experience in it. It would be tuf call


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## Donatello

gowthamraj said:


> Very True
> 
> 
> F-16 is a battle proven with the record of 64-0.
> 
> 
> With PAF pilots having decades of experience in it. It would be tuf call





Well, as we have said, you cannot take paper details of aircraft and let those dictate the outcome. Even the best computer simulations are only accurate to a certain degree. As long as we have multiple aircraft and differently trained pilots, we are bound to have way more complex scenario than any one of us can point out.


Had both PAF and IAF been operating lets say MIG and F-16s, we could guess. But we have totally different aircraft.

Egyptians and Syrians didn't have bad equipment yet they were badly out run by Israelis.

Similarly, British were way superior in Falklands war yet the Argentine Air force and Navy fought till the last moment.


----------



## rockstarIN

SomeGuy said:


> Actually, it's the other way around - China is no longer buying MKK/MKK2 but developing J-10B and J-11B.



Yes, but J-11B is the copy of Su-27/SU-30 only. Air dominance fighter like MKK and they have already got 69 Su-27s, 100 mkk/mk2s and already build 172 J11 A/Bs, can't undermine the importance of air superiority fighter.


----------



## rockstarIN

gowthamraj said:


> Very True
> 
> 
> F-16 is a battle proven with the record of 64-0.
> 
> 
> With PAF pilots having decades of experience in it. It would be tuf call




Yes F-16 is a very proven fighter and Americans added new technology to it. But PAF received block 52 c/d planes recently, which are BVR capable. So it may take some time to master in BVR battle.


----------



## marcos98

i hope these stunners werent posted before /:

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## rockstarIN

Which jet is this?


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## Luftwaffe

posted before..
this jet is F10,000
This is J-10A please go through the thread.

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## Manticore

Chengdu J-10

Technical Report APA-TR-2007-0107

by Dr Carlo Kopp, SMAIAA, MIEEE, PEng
January, 2007
Updated August 2009
Updated August 2010

Chengdu J-10 Sinocanard

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## Tajdar adil

Can anyone tell me PAF to get that fighter.


----------



## SomeGuy

rockstar said:


> Yes, but J-11B is the copy of Su-27/SU-30 only.



Only the basic shape is copied.

Most other subsystems in J-11B, radar, avionics, materials, RCS etc is superior to MKK2.



rockstar said:


> Air dominance fighter like MKK and they have already got 69 Su-27s, 100 mkk/mk2s and already build 172 J11 A/Bs, can't undermine the importance of air superiority fighter.



I read somewhere that in PLAAF combat exercises, the basic J-10A was able to defeat Su-27 and MKK, so J-10A is good enough - some say that it's comparable to F-16C/D blk 52.

J-10B is more advanced and can certainly be used in air-to-air role.

It will also get latest Chinese tech because its being used as testbed for 5th gen technologies.

The only difference is that being a medium fighter it just lacks the range and payload of a heavyweight fighter.

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## siegecrossbow

Tajdar adil said:


> Can anyone tell me PAF to get that fighter.



They already are. In 2014 I think the PAF is going to start purchasing J-10Bs.



> Only the basic shape is copied.
> 
> Most other subsystems in J-11B, radar, avionics, materials, RCS etc is superior to MKK2.



That's right. The Su-27 airframe is superb so it makes a great testbed for indigenous radars and avionics. I still think that the primary reason the PLA risked confrontations with the Russians to develop the J-11 is that the PLA must end its dependency on Russian munitions/engines. Just look at what happened to Argentina during the Falkland Wars when the French stopped selling the Exocets!



> I read somewhere that in PLAAF combat exercises, the basic J-10A was able to defeat Su-27 and MKK, so J-10A is good enough - some say that it's comparable to F-16C/D blk 52.



The results of the exercise came as a great shock to the PLA. The J-10As were on the "Blue", or the "enemy", side of the Red-Blue Exercise since their stats/attributes closesly matched those of the F-16. This is also one of the reasons (the other being the introduction of J-11B) why PLAAF stopped importing the Su-30s, at least for now.

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## MastanKhan

Mark Sien said:


> International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Chinas Aviation Sector: Building Toward World Class Capabilities
> 
> _Some reports also suggest that the J-10B is primarily intended to meet a requirement from Pakistan. These modifications point to the J-10 having evolved rapidly toward a 4+ generation level of capability._



Mark,

Good find---good article---shows how difficult is it to make a turbofan---.

A realistic article----the writer wished he new more about the chinese program.


----------



## rockstarIN

SomeGuy said:


> Only the basic shape is copied.
> 
> Most other subsystems in J-11B, radar, avionics, materials, RCS etc is superior to MKK2.
> 
> Agree, I think the engine being used still from Russia only as their experiment for new engine encountered technical snags.
> 
> 
> The only difference is that being a medium fighter it just lacks the range and payload of a heavyweight fighter.




The range and play load really matters in modern air combat as you need to run away from the enemy Air to Air long range to missiles in order to evade it and come back to the combat range again to engage. So the more range you have, more you can sustain.

and about play load, the kill probability increases if you fire 2 missiles to one enemy target. More missiles & weapons is always an advantage.


----------



## rockstarIN

Suppose the cost of the F-16 Block 52 C/Ds and J10 is the same and both are available to PAF by US and China, which one PAF select?

Cost of F-16E/F US$26.9 million (2005) - Wikipedia

Cost of J-10 - (27.84 million USD; 2010 - Wikipedia


----------



## Sapper

rockstar said:


> Suppose the cost of the F-16 Block 52 C/Ds and J10 is the same and both are available to PAF by US and China, which one PAF select?
> 
> Cost of F-16E/F US$26.9 million (2005) - Wikipedia
> 
> Cost of J-10 - (27.84 million USD; 2010 - Wikipedia



Dear,

The 2006 Price at which Pakistan Ordered F16 Bl52+ was almost 65 Mil USD, coming up to little less than 80 Mil USD (with spares) per unit. The figure you have quoted is quite old.

Also, the J10B estimated induction cost in 2014~2015 is around 40~45 Mil USD (with spares) per unit.

Regards,
Sapper


----------



## SomeGuy

rockstar said:


> Suppose the cost of the F-16 Block 52 C/Ds and J10 is the same and both are available to PAF by US and China, which one PAF select?
> 
> *Cost of F-16E/F US$26.9 million (2005) - Wikipedia*
> 
> Cost of J-10 - (27.84 million USD; 2010 - Wikipedia



Sorry, but I just simply cannot believe that the very latest E/F variant would only cost $27mil.

Even if J-10 and F-16 were priced the same, PAF should go for both.
Although F-16 might be better in some areas it comes with strings attached.
You don't want all your top end fighters being grounded by sanctions do you?!

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## siegecrossbow

If the J-10B has, as widely speculated, AESA capabilities then it should be in the same league as the latest block F-16s. Three F-2s, with phased array radars and high end electronics, still got locked on by two J-10s during an encounter at Senkaku Island. I believe J-10 has a lot of untapped potentials.

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## Trac

siegecrossbow said:


> If the J-10B has, as widely speculated, AESA capabilities then it should be in the same league as *the latest block F-16s.* Three F-2s, with phased array radars and high end electronics, still got locked on by two J-10s during an encounter at Senkaku Island. I believe J-10 has a lot of untapped potentials.



Sir,
I think all major components of j10b is still under development include engine, radar, aviation so how can you compare a aircraft under development with one the the worlds best aircraft ???


----------



## hataf

Trac said:


> Sir,
> I think all major components of j10b is still under development include engine, radar, aviation so how can you compare a aircraft under development with one the the worlds best aircraft ???



sorry can't stop my self

the same way the Indian compare their TEJAS with TYPHON





> If the J-10B has, as widely speculated, AESA capabilities then it should be in the same league as the latest block F-16s. Three F-2s, with phased array radars and high end electronics, *still got locked on by two J-10s during an encounter at Senkaku Island*. I believe J-10 has a lot of untapped potentials.



i think you missed to read this part
he is enlightening you with practical example 

on my note 

thanks bro great news for me

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## siegecrossbow

Trac said:


> Sir,
> I think all major components of j10b is still under development include engine, radar, aviation so how can you compare a aircraft under development with one the the worlds best aircraft ???



If something as basic as the engine were still under development you wouldn't see all those J-10bs running around in the airfields my friend. The Chinese government has the annoying tendency (for military fans, anyways) to guard any newly developed tech closesly. The J-10A, for example, wasn't formally announced until 2006, when several squadrons of the said plane was already in service in the PLAAF. 

As for what I said about the J-10b being in the same league as the F-16E it is only my personal opinion. No one can no for certain just how good the J-10b is since the stats have not been leaked. I'm making a bit of a jump by upscaling the J-10A's performance. Only time will tell if I am right or not.

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## shanixee

siegecrossbow said:


> If the J-10B has, as widely speculated, AESA capabilities then it should be in the same league as the latest block F-16s. Three F-2s, with phased array radars and high end electronics, still got locked on by two J-10s during an encounter at Senkaku Island. I believe J-10 has a lot of untapped potentials.



J10 B would be better then F16E/F...PAF is not waiting to get something equal to block 52 F16C/D...if J10B were equal to Block 52 they would hve got more F16 rather then waiting for 5 years for J10B. i hope you get my point...china is working quietly regardless of wat ppl think and comment abt its technological advancement..China will rise high very soon in Fighter jet Industry.

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## Trac

hataf said:


> sorry can't stop my self
> 
> the same way the Indian compare their TEJAS with TYPHON



I think you never agreed with me but Chinese made engine are highly doubtful. 

They are still testing engine for jf17 and that take minimum 3 years to be mature and here we are talking about 4.5 gen fighters. 

Well lets wait and watch but till then comparing with others is just prediction


----------



## siegecrossbow

Trac said:


> I think you never agreed with me but Chinese made engine are highly doubtful.
> 
> They are still testing engine for jf17 and that take minimum 3 years to be mature and here we are talking about 4.5 gen fighters.
> 
> Well lets wait and watch but till then comparing with others is just prediction



The WS-13 used by the JF-17 has been successfully tested in flight recently. The WS-10A that will eventually replace the AL-31s have been successfully tested as well and will exclusively equip future J-10s and J-11Bs.

I never said that the J-10B comparison with F-16E WASN'T just my prediction.


----------



## Trac

siegecrossbow said:


> The WS-13 used by the JF-17 has been successfully tested in flight recently. The WS-10A that will eventually replace the AL-31s have been successfully tested as well and will exclusively equip future J-10s and J-11Bs.
> 
> I never said that the J-10B comparison with F-16E WASN'T just my prediction.



WS-13 tested first time so it need almost 3 years i think you also cant deny that 

And about engine of j10 found out some thing about it on wikipedia 

The AL-31FN was initially expected to be replaced by a domestic powerplant developed and manufactured in China, the WS-10A (WoShan-10A) Taihang turbofan, giving a thrust of 129 kN (13,200 kgf or 29,101 lbf). However, given the poor quality of the engine and other development difficulties[36][37], the PLAAF is reluctant to integrate the WS-10 onto the aircraft.[38][39]


----------



## siegecrossbow

Trac said:


> WS-13 tested first time so it need almost 3 years i think you also cant deny that
> 
> And about engine of j10 found out some thing about it on wikipedia
> 
> The AL-31FN was initially expected to be replaced by a domestic powerplant developed and manufactured in China, the WS-10A (WoShan-10A) Taihang turbofan, giving a thrust of 129 kN (13,200 kgf or 29,101 lbf). However, given the poor quality of the engine and other development difficulties[36][37], the PLAAF is reluctant to integrate the WS-10 onto the aircraft.[38][39]



The WS-13 will need three years to mature but in the RD-93 will (the recent rumours of a sanction are, as a matter of fact, just rumours) do nicely for the time being.

As for the WS-10A, keep in mind that unlike J-10 and J-10A (which are often used interchangeably) the WS-10A is an improved version of the earlier WS-10. I admit that there are still problems with quality control but the WS-10A has already solved many of the problems on the original prototype (increasing the thrust and enhancing engine life time). Keep in mind that dependence on foreign engines has plagued the PLAAF for the past few decades and therefore is a priority that will be sorted out ASAP.


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## Trac

siegecrossbow said:


> The WS-13 will need three years to mature but in the RD-93 will (the recent rumours of a sanction are, as a matter of fact, just rumours) do nicely for the time being.
> 
> As for the WS-10A, keep in mind that unlike J-10 and J-10A (which are often used interchangeably) the WS-10A is an improved version of the earlier WS-10. I admit that there are still problems with quality control but the WS-10A has already solved many of the problems on the original prototype (increasing the thrust and enhancing engine life time). Keep in mind that dependence on foreign engines has plagued the PLAAF for the past few decades and therefore is a priority that will be sorted out ASAP.



Sir,
I think you have to read this one 

*Chinese AVIC Top Head admits the Poor Quality of Jet Engine
Posted on 02 April 2009*

Apr.2 (China Defense Mashup Reporting by Johnathan Weng) -- Mr. Lin Zuoming (&#26519;&#24038;&#40483, the top head of ACIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China), has to admit that China's "Taihang"* WS-10 Turbofan engine is still unsatisfactory in its quality.*

In one of his opening letter, he says that the military aircraft engine production has been the "chronic illness" in Chinese aviation industry and he urges that the solving of "Taihang" WS-10 Turbofan engine is the key step to reinforce the Quality Control Procedure in AVIC.

*Now PLA Air Force has install some WS-10 engine on its J-11B dual-engine heavy fighters for evaluation. But the result is not positive. *Some resources report that the quality of WS-10 engine is terrible and PLA Air Force has begun to lose patiency of purchasing more WS-10 engine.

In early March 2009, One Chinese PLA Air Force Pilot sucessfully made a forced landing of one J-10 fighter due to the air shut-down of AL-31F engine*. As one kind of single engine fighter, J-10 is very dangerous when power system in trouble.*

*As a result, PLA Air Force has been knowing the stability of Russian engines and just imported AL-31F engines before the finish of WS-10 development. But the fact shows that the WS-10 engine just looks advanced but has no real advantages to AL-31F.*

*The forced landing accident warns PLA Air Force that the aviation engines has been the killing shortages of its J-10 and J-11 fleets. No combat aircraft after all can fight without reliable engines.*


Chinese AVIC Top Head admits the Poor Quality of Jet Engine|China Military Power Mashup

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## hboGYT

Trac said:


> Sir,
> I think you have to read this one
> 
> *Chinese AVIC Top Head admits the Poor Quality of Jet Engine
> Posted on 02 April 2009*
> 
> Apr.2 (China Defense Mashup Reporting by Johnathan Weng) -- Mr. Lin Zuoming (&#26519;&#24038;&#40483, the top head of ACIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China), has to admit that China's "Taihang"* WS-10 Turbofan engine is still unsatisfactory in its quality.*
> 
> In one of his opening letter, he says that the military aircraft engine production has been the "chronic illness" in Chinese aviation industry and he urges that the solving of "Taihang" WS-10 Turbofan engine is the key step to reinforce the Quality Control Procedure in AVIC.
> 
> *Now PLA Air Force has install some WS-10 engine on its J-11B dual-engine heavy fighters for evaluation. But the result is not positive. *Some resources report that the quality of WS-10 engine is terrible and PLA Air Force has begun to lose patiency of purchasing more WS-10 engine.
> 
> In early March 2009, One Chinese PLA Air Force Pilot sucessfully made a forced landing of one J-10 fighter due to the air shut-down of AL-31F engine*. As one kind of single engine fighter, J-10 is very dangerous when power system in trouble.*
> 
> *As a result, PLA Air Force has been knowing the stability of Russian engines and just imported AL-31F engines before the finish of WS-10 development. But the fact shows that the WS-10 engine just looks advanced but has no real advantages to AL-31F.*
> 
> *The forced landing accident warns PLA Air Force that the aviation engines has been the killing shortages of its J-10 and J-11 fleets. No combat aircraft after all can fight without reliable engines.*
> 
> 
> Chinese AVIC Top Head admits the Poor Quality of Jet Engine|China Military Power Mashup



You have to read this one more carefully. It says "WS-10", the older version of the engine. This lineage's later evolution is the WS-10A that is now being installed on J-11B.


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## SBD-3

the engine production is not a child's play. Apart from US, Russia and Few European countries, no one is in the business yet. Why? because its not that simple...Look at China, its been decades of development behind WS-10 and yet its not perfected. The same is with Kaveri.....so dont expect WS-10 to be coming out flawless in the first place. But having designed one, now China will be able to look forward for bug fixing rather than painful development....so still a good achievement for China IMHO...

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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> If the J-10B has, as widely speculated, AESA capabilities then it should be in the same league as the latest block F-16s. *Three F-2s, with phased array radars and high end electronics, still got locked on by two J-10s during an encounter at Senkaku Island. I believe J-10 has a lot of untapped potentials*.



Thats what I was looking for from quite some time. I think this event is about a year older yrt?....can you please provide me with a link for further details of this event? TIA


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## SBD-3

rockstar said:


> Suppose the cost of the F-16 Block 52 C/Ds and J10 is the same and both are available to PAF by US and China, which one PAF select?
> 
> Cost of F-16E/F US$26.9 million (2005) - Wikipedia
> 
> Cost of J-10 - (27.84 million USD; 2010 - Wikipedia



you forgot to look at the years.....now F-16 Costs around 60 Mio and J-10 about 40 Mio


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## SBD-3

rockstar said:


> The range and play load really matters in modern air combat as* you need to run away from the enemy Air to Air long range to missiles in order to evade it and come back to the combat range again to engage. So the more range you have, more you can sustain.*
> 
> and about play load, the kill probability increases if you fire 2 missiles to one enemy target. More missiles & weapons is always an advantage.



aaah...I think you have been playing a simulation lately....but hay, there is a good military medicine for this problem by the name of Air Launched Standoff missiles and Glide Bombs


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## Trac

hboGYT said:


> You have to read this one more carefully. It says "WS-10", the older version of the engine. This lineage's later evolution is the WS-10A that is now being installed on J-11B.



Buddy i am already read it first look the date of the news and if you miss this part so read it again 

*In early March 2009, *One Chinese PLA Air Force Pilot sucessfully made a forced landing of one J-10 fighter due to the air shut-down of AL-31F engine. As one kind of single engine fighter, J-10 is very dangerous when power system in trouble.

As a result, PLA Air Force has been knowing the stability of Russian engines and just imported AL-31F engines before the finish of WS-10 development. But the fact shows that the WS-10 engine just looks advanced but has no real advantages to AL-31F.


If they are still importing Russian engine then how can you claim that their new version is ready and already installed in their aircraft .

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## rockstarIN

hasnain0099 said:


> aaah...I think you have been playing a simulation lately....but hay, there is a good military medicine for this problem by the name of Air Launched Standoff missiles and Glide Bombs



1) Only Simulation can be possible today plus various air force exercise results to analyze aircraft capabilities as i mentioned earlier only once air combat happened where both sides have advanced aircrafts with BVR capabilities.(Ethiopia-Eritrea War, 1999) else are simulations/interpretations. 

2) Cant understand how Air Launched Standoff missiles and Glide Bombs can substitute range weapon play load. Pls explain.

Cheers..


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## rockstarIN

siegecrossbow said:


> If the J-10B has, as widely speculated, AESA capabilities then it should be in the same league as the latest block F-16s. Three F-2s, with phased array radars and high end electronics, still got locked on by two J-10s during an encounter at Senkaku Island. I believe J-10 has a lot of untapped potentials.



Can you provide the link pls?


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## SBD-3

rockstar said:


> 1) Only Simulation can be possible today plus various air force exercise results to analyze aircraft capabilities as i mentioned earlier only once air combat happened where both sides have advanced aircrafts with BVR capabilities.(Ethiopia-Eritrea War, 1999) else are simulations/interpretations.
> 
> 2) Cant understand how Air Launched Standoff missiles and Glide Bombs can substitute range weapon play load. Pls explain.
> 
> Cheers..



the main purpose of stand off missiles and glide bombs is to take out the target without entering into the range of enemy air defence.....now such weapons are available from range of 60 KM to 500 or 1000KM as well


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## SBD-3

rockstar said:


> Can you provide the link pls?



Go to the previous discussions on the same page


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## rockstarIN

hasnain0099 said:


> Go to the previous discussions on the same page



I didnt see any link in the earlier posts


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## rockstarIN

hasnain0099 said:


> the main purpose of stand off missiles and glide bombs is to take out the target without entering into the range of enemy air defence.....now such weapons are available from range of 60 KM to 500 or 1000KM as well



Those weapons are made against land or sea based target, not for Air to Air roles


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## SBD-3

rockstar said:


> Those weapons are made against land or sea based target, not for Air to Air roles



plz clarify you context of earlier posts as range is most cruicial for strike missions. you dont go deep in enemy territory just to engage their aircrafts.... I am amazed


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## rockstarIN

hasnain0099 said:


> plz clarify you context of earlier posts as range is most cruicial for strike missions. you dont go deep in enemy territory just to engage their aircrafts.... I am amazed



Just to clarify, I talked about only Air to Air roles not for strike missions..!!

Pls read my earlier posts, I wrote heavy fighter can carry more weapons & longer range, this machine can stay in the combat area more time, can run away to escape from incoming missiles and enter again come back and re engage.


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## hboGYT

Trac said:


> Buddy i am already read it first look the date of the news and if you miss this part so read it again
> 
> *In early March 2009, *One Chinese PLA Air Force Pilot sucessfully made a forced landing of one J-10 fighter due to the air shut-down of AL-31F engine. As one kind of single engine fighter, J-10 is very dangerous when power system in trouble.
> 
> As a result, PLA Air Force has been knowing the stability of Russian engines and just imported AL-31F engines before the finish of WS-10 development. But the fact shows that the WS-10 engine just looks advanced but has no real advantages to AL-31F.
> 
> 
> If they are still importing Russian engine then how can you claim that their new version is ready and already installed in their aircraft .



I read the time. At the time, the fleet with WS-10 was grounded. But, now we have photographic evidence of J-11B flying with WS-10A.


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## siegecrossbow

rockstar said:


> Can you provide the link pls?



Would Chinese news do?

The only non-Chinese source I have is the anti-Chinese Strategy page (which repeated called the J-10 a cheap, Lavi ripoff), which will probably quell any suspicions that they are playing up Chinese capabilities.

Surface Forces : Chinese Fleet Closes In On Okinawa



> There have been confrontations. Last year, two Chinese J-10A chased away three Japanese F-2 fighters that were near the Senkakus. Two years ago, Chinese coast guard ships began patrolling in the Senkakus, along with Chinese J-10A fighters.

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## siegecrossbow

Trac said:


> Buddy i am already read it first look the date of the news and if you miss this part so read it again
> 
> *In early March 2009, *One Chinese PLA Air Force Pilot sucessfully made a forced landing of one J-10 fighter due to the air shut-down of AL-31F engine. As one kind of single engine fighter, J-10 is very dangerous when power system in trouble.
> 
> As a result, PLA Air Force has been knowing the stability of Russian engines and just imported AL-31F engines before the finish of WS-10 development. But the fact shows that the WS-10 engine just looks advanced but has no real advantages to AL-31F.
> 
> 
> If they are still importing Russian engine then how can you claim that their new version is ready and already installed in their aircraft .



Buddy read again it said that the J-10 made a forced landing because of the Russian engine, not a WS-10!

The author did not back up why the WS-10 just "looks avanced but has no real advantages to AL-31F'. Although the WS-10A has a shorter life time than the AL-31F (and relatively poor reliability) the WS-10A also could generate greater thrust than the AL-31F.

Regards.


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## Trac

hboGYT said:


> I read the time. At the time, the fleet with WS-10 was grounded. But, now we have photographic evidence of J-11B flying with WS-10A.



I love to see that 
BTW they are flying j10 with ws10 from 2005 but still quality of ws10 is doubtful so how can you say that second one is batter ???


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## siegecrossbow

Trac said:


> I love to see that
> BTW they are flying j10 with ws10 from 2005 but still quality of ws10 is doubtful so how can you say that second one is batter ???



Go to this link for the images. They are still a bit cautious about the engines since the landing gears are down but hey, it is still flying.


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## Trac

siegecrossbow said:


> Buddy read again it said that the J-10 made a forced landing because of the Russian engine, not a WS-10!
> 
> The author did not back up why the WS-10 just "looks avanced but has no real advantages to AL-31F'. Although the WS-10A has a shorter life time than the AL-31F (and relatively poor reliability) the WS-10A also could generate greater thrust than the AL-31F.
> 
> Regards.



Chinese AVIC Top Head admits the *Poor Quality of Jet Engine*
Posted on 02 April 2009

Apr.2 (China Defense Mashup Reporting by Johnathan Weng) -- Mr. Lin Zuoming (&#26519;&#24038;&#40483, the top head of ACIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China),* has to admit that China's "Taihang" WS-10 Turbofan engine is still unsatisfactory in its quality.*

In one of his opening letter, he says that the military aircraft engine production has been the "*chronic illness" *in Chinese aviation industry and he urges that the solving of "Taihang" WS-10 Turbofan engine is the key step to reinforce the Quality Control Procedure in AVIC.

Now PLA Air Force has install some WS-10 engine on its J-11B dual-engine heavy fighters for evaluation. But the result is not positive. Some resources report that the quality of WS-10 engine is terrible and PLA Air Force has begun to lose patiency of purchasing more WS-10 engine.


Sir 
I dnt want to say this again and again 
Just want to prove one point that J10b is still underdevelopment and all major components of this fighters are in development 
I dnt have doubt on Chinese capability 

We know about engine problem because of pressure of press means China still importing engines so they have to admit it but what about other things like AESA radar other important things ????

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## siegecrossbow

Trac said:


> Chinese AVIC Top Head admits the *Poor Quality of Jet Engine*
> Posted on 02 April 2009
> 
> Apr.2 (China Defense Mashup Reporting by Johnathan Weng) -- Mr. Lin Zuoming (&#26519;&#24038;&#40483, the top head of ACIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China),* has to admit that China's "Taihang" WS-10 Turbofan engine is still unsatisfactory in its quality.*
> 
> In one of his opening letter, he says that the military aircraft engine production has been the "*chronic illness" *in Chinese aviation industry and he urges that the solving of "Taihang" WS-10 Turbofan engine is the key step to reinforce the Quality Control Procedure in AVIC.
> 
> Now PLA Air Force has install some WS-10 engine on its J-11B dual-engine heavy fighters for evaluation. But the result is not positive. Some resources report that the quality of WS-10 engine is terrible and PLA Air Force has begun to lose patiency of purchasing more WS-10 engine.
> 
> 
> Sir
> I dnt want to say this again and again
> Just want to prove one point that J10b is still underdevelopment and all major components of this fighters are in development
> I dnt have doubt on Chinese capability
> 
> We know about engine problem because of pressure of press means China still importing engines so they have to admit it but what about other things like AESA radar other important things ????



Well I stopped trying to say that the WS-10A could enter service immediately about 10-20 posts ago. I acknowledge that mistake. I was just saying that Russian engines, too, aren't as reliable as we like and we can't be too dependent on them either.

Electronically scanned radar is speculated, current J-10A models are still using the good old doppler radars. I don't know whether the J-10B will go with domestic or Russia AESA.


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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> Electronically scanned radar is speculated, current J-10A models are still using the good old doppler radars. I don't know whether the J-10B will go with domestic or Russia AESA.


Russian AESA is a good choice on first hand as Chinese AESA is immature, But we will also have to see whether Russians will be willing to provide AESA for J-10? J-10 will certainly a worthy competitor for Russian Birds in international markets so Russians will certainly be mindful of that. As for PAF, I think PAF would prefer a western AESA (Vixen 1000E) in the first place. Chinese AESA would likely be a fallback option.


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## muse

> I think PAF would prefer a western AESA (Vixen 1000E) in the first place. Chinese AESA would likely be a fallback option



This whole Western avionics package thing might have been relevent a couple of years ago, but is it still? For instance, one does not hear the PAF making such suggestions, when was the last time you heard PAF say they want a Wesgtern radar on the J10/FC20?.

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## SBD-3

muse said:


> This whole Western avionics package thing might have been relevent a couple of years ago, but is it still? For instance, one does not hear the PAF making such suggestions, when was the last time you heard PAF say they want a Wesgtern radar on the J10/FC20?.


Taking your view....PAF has been mostly silent on even what model of J-10 will it procure, J-10A or B. unless its was leaked out in forums


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## siegecrossbow

hasnain0099 said:


> Russian AESA is a good choice on first hand as Chinese AESA is immature, But we will also have to see whether Russians will be willing to provide AESA for J-10? J-10 will certainly a worthy competitor for Russian Birds in international markets so Russians will certainly be mindful of that. As for PAF, I think PAF would prefer a western AESA (Vixen 1000E) in the first place. Chinese AESA would likely be a fallback option.



I don't think that the Russian suppliers will want to sanction AESA to China and miss out on the business opportunity. Although the J-10, like the JF-17, may offer competition on the international market as you said there is nothing stopping the buyers from getting Chinese or Western radars. Besides there is a tenuous strategic tie between China and Russia right now. At the end of the day everyone should just relax and make more money .

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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> I don't think that the Russian suppliers will want to sanction AESA to China and miss out on the business opportunity. Although the J-10, like the JF-17, may offer competition on the international market as you said there is nothing stopping the buyers from getting Chinese or Western radars. Besides there is a tenuous strategic tie between China and Russia right now. At the end of the day everyone should just relax and make more money .



but yet Russian AESA is also relatively new......although older than Chinese one ryt?


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## fatman17

hasnain0099 said:


> Taking your view....PAF has been mostly silent on even what model of J-10 will it procure, J-10A or B. unless its was leaked out in forums



the PAF is getting the FC-20, which is different in many ways with the standard chinese J-10A or J-10B. reports suggest the FC-20 is more closer to the J-10B but still different is its 'specifications'.

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## siegecrossbow

fatman17 said:


> the PAF is getting the FC-20, which is different in many ways with the standard chinese J-10A or J-10B. reports suggest the FC-20 is more closer to the J-10B but still different is its 'specifications'.



I hope it is going to be the J-10B. J-10A, while a capable plane right now, may be a bit outdated when Pakistan purchases it in 2014 when a recent influx of stealth fighters (F-35/PAK-FA) ruins the regional air-power balance. Later along the roads (2020ish) I am hoping that China will produce stealth variants of the J-10. A dedicated stealth air superiority fighter is going to be very expensive, as demonstrated by the F-22 and PAK-FA, so a "converted" Fourth Gen Fighter similar to the Silent Eagle may be a more economical solution.

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## S-A-B-E-R->

siegecrossbow said:


> I hope it is going to be the J-10B. J-10A, while a capable plane right now, may be a bit outdated when Pakistan purchases it in 2014 when a recent influx of stealth fighters (F-35/PAK-FA) ruins the regional air-power balance. Later along the roads (2020ish) I am hoping that China will produce stealth variants of the J-10. A dedicated stealth air superiority fighter is going to be very expensive, as demonstrated by the F-22 and PAK-FA, so a "converted" Fourth Gen Fighter similar to the Silent Eagle may be a more economical solution.



i was just going through some pics hear u or any other may know the answer but fc20 hear have a smaller nose cone then j10b i mean its not final but it does show absence of AESA or im wrong plz speculate


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## siegecrossbow

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> i was just going through some pics hear u or any other may know the answer but fc20 hear have a smaller nose cone then j10b i mean its not final but it does show absence of AESA or im wrong plz speculate



FC-20 hasn't been finalized yet and I don't think pictures have leaked out just yet. Also your picture isn't showing.


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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> I hope it is going to be the J-10B. J-10A, while a capable plane right now, may be a bit outdated when Pakistan purchases it in 2014 when a recent influx of stealth fighters (F-35/PAK-FA) ruins the regional air-power balance. Later along the roads (2020ish) I am hoping that China will produce stealth variants of the J-10. A dedicated stealth air superiority fighter is going to be very expensive, as demonstrated by the F-22 and PAK-FA, so a "converted" Fourth Gen Fighter similar to the Silent Eagle may be a more economical solution.



indeed......well I dont see somthing like F-22 coming out in Asia and Europe....all outputs will remain near JSF standards....even PAK-FA will be a LO instead of all aspect stealth lyk Raptor same can be expected from JXX as well....even with PAK-FA having its tail exposed, would be vulnerable to IRSTs and heat seeking missile ( not to mention the "hoard" of radars put on it in hope of finding F-22) which means that PAK-FA will have greater radar emissions as compared to even JSF...so IMHO a good maneuverable fighter with potent radar system will be able to track PAK-FA at reasonable distance


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## marcos98



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## siegecrossbow

marcos98 said:


>



Cool CG picts of a J-10B. Which website did you link it from? I've never seen this one before.


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## applesauce

siegecrossbow said:


> Cool CG picts of a J-10B. Which website did you link it from? I've never seen this one before.



they look like CGI


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## siegecrossbow

applesauce said:


> they look like CGI



I know, that's why I asked him where he got to CG pictures. It must've been done by a new guy because I haven't seen these two CG picts before.


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## marcos98



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## Donatello

marcos98 said:


>



The last one says FC-10....

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## Kompromat

penumbra said:


> The last one says FC-10....



this is a real deal.

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## rockstarIN

hasnain0099 said:


> indeed......well I dont see somthing like F-22 coming out in Asia and Europe....all outputs will remain near JSF standards....even PAK-FA will be a LO instead of all aspect stealth lyk Raptor same can be expected from JXX as well....even with PAK-FA having its tail exposed, would be vulnerable to IRSTs and heat seeking missile ( not to mention the "hoard" of radars put on it in hope of finding F-22) which means that PAK-FA will have greater radar emissions as compared to even JSF...so IMHO a good maneuverable fighter with potent radar system will be able to track PAK-FA at reasonable distance



If it is vulnerable to heat seeking missiles, it can't be called a fifth generation aircraft, merely 4th generation.

Do not underestimate Russians, you think Russians took so much time even to design PAK-FA to make it as 4th generation?


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## akinkhoo

rockstar said:


> If it is vulnerable to heat seeking missiles, it can't be called a fifth generation aircraft, merely 4th generation.


actually IR stealth is not a requirement of 5th gen, the JSF didn't have very good engine masking too and it is call 5th gen as well... engine masking double the cost of maintenance as it requires the engine to be embedded deep inside and harder to extract engine out. cost of servicing the F22 is 4 times that of eurofighter...

i don't see it as a major issue, if you are close enough to get a IR missile on your tail, you are probably close enough to be detected each other on the radar anyway.


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## rockstarIN

akinkhoo said:


> actually IR stealth is not a requirement of 5th gen, the JSF didn't have very good engine masking too and it is call 5th gen as well... engine masking double the cost of maintenance as it requires the engine to be embedded deep inside and harder to extract engine out. cost of servicing the F22 is 4 times that of eurofighter...
> 
> i don't see it as a major issue, if you are close enough to get a IR missile on your tail, you are probably close enough to be detected each other on the radar anyway.



Point noted.

So you are saying F-22's engine is masked enough that it is not prone to heat seeking missiles? 

If IR stealth is not a requirement for 5th gen, can't enemy fighters monitor it thru their radars by the heat signatures?


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## General General

No jet has complete stealth from all aspects. Even the Raptor can be tracked by a reasonably modern infra-red seeking missile at a certain range. The Raptors skin has radar-absorbing structures and paint. The heat-signatures have been concealed to a limited extent. But common-sense says as long as there is an after-burner flame emmiting from the engine, there will be heat-enough for a missile to get a lock on it. Here is a view of the heat-signature of an F-22 Raptor:





This picture of J-10 shows two different types of the aircraft. One is J-10a, the other one is either J10b or FC-20.


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## Patriot

To be fair to Raptor That picture is taken at very close distance.Put Raptor 20KM away and infrared wont be able detect it even at 10KM i doubt it will be able to detect it considering the fact that FA18 Pilot could not lock onto F22 even though he could see the pilot of f22 through canopy.I doubt any F22 Pilot would let enemy jets anywhere near 50KM much less 3-5 KM.


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## fatman17

Patriot said:


> *To be fair to Raptor That picture is taken at very close distance.*Put Raptor 20KM away and infrared wont be able detect it even at 10KM i doubt it will be able to detect it considering the fact that FA18 Pilot could not lock onto F22 even though he could see the pilot of f22 through canopy.I doubt any F22 Pilot would let enemy jets anywhere near 50KM much less 3-5 KM.



r u suggesting that the F-22 is vulnerable at WVR!


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## Patriot

Of course it would be venerable to Bullets at very close range like 4-5 KM but that is of course same for every jet because you can't hide jet visually from pilot eyes.Most WVR missiles are at 20-25KM range and i doubt it would be detected at that range.I read a interview of F18 pilot who said i could not lock my radar on F22 despite the fact that i could see the pilot.In any case; A F22 PIlot would never let anyone come close.

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## WAQAS119

marcos98 said:


>



Isn't Pakistan version of J10 i.e., J10B will be having DSI intakes?? Pictures seems to be wrong!


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## TOPGUN

WAQAS119 said:


> Isn't Pakistan version of J10 i.e., J10B will be having DSI intakes?? Pictures seems to be wrong!



Perhaps... but so many stories had been going around one still doesn't know the real deal i hope soon it will be shown what we are really going to have PAF that is.


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## rockstarIN

Patriot said:


> Of course it would be venerable to Bullets at very close range like 4-5 KM but that is of course same for every jet because you can't hide jet visually from pilot eyes.Most WVR missiles are at 20-25KM range and i doubt it would be detected at that range.I read a interview of F18 pilot who said i could lock my radar on F22 despite the fact that i could see the pilot.In any case; A F22 PIlot would never let anyone come close.



Also F-22 have more powerful engine and Trust Vectoring, So even in WVR, it is not easy to counter it.

But I think in order to counter one F-22, 4-6 fourth or 4.5 generation fighters can go for a close visual combat and have a chance even accepting after causalities.


----------



## General General

An F 16 C shot down a Raptor during a Red Flag exercise with a missile in 2007(after which it was shot down itself). Like I said, it depends upon the technology you're using against the Raptor. I suppose a Eurofighter also has a fighting chance against it if armed with 5th gen. missiles.

SU 30MKI is the most advanced jet in the Indian Air Force inventory, and the FC 20 will be the most advanced in the Pakistan Air Force. However, if both are compared, they fair equally. One might come out on top of the other in some cases, like manuverability and payload in SU 30, and maximum ceiling and speed in the FC 20. So, giving this, the SU 30 will be used for a deep-penetration attacker/bomber and the FC 20 will be used as an interceptor/bomber.


----------



## rockstarIN

General General said:


> An F 16 C shot down a Raptor during a Red Flag exercise with a missile in 2007(after which it was shot down itself). Like I said, it depends upon the technology you're using against the Raptor. I suppose a Eurofighter also has a fighting chance against it if armed with 5th gen. missiles.
> 
> SU 30MKI is the most advanced jet in the Indian Air Force inventory, and the FC 20 will be the most advanced in the Pakistan Air Force. However, if both are compared, they fair equally. One might come out on top of the other in some cases, like manuverability and payload in SU 30, and maximum ceiling and speed in the FC 20. So, giving this, the SU 30 will be used for a deep-penetration attacker/bomber and the FC 20 will be used as an interceptor/bomber.



In that sense the main difference between Su-30 & FC-20 is Trust Vectoring, So far Su-30 MKI and F-22 are the only jets with TVC now.


----------



## SBD-3

rockstar said:


> If it is vulnerable to heat seeking missiles, it can't be called a fifth generation aircraft, merely 4th generation.
> 
> Do not underestimate Russians, you think Russians took so much time even to design PAK-FA to make it as 4th generation?



the cornerstone of 5th gen tech is stealth, all the other attributes like Supercruise, Supermanuverbility are for increasing survivability. Not only raptor but Rafale's engine is also optimized for low IR signatures. Russians had a choice to go near Raptor standard but that would not only require significant technological development (mean higher cost) which could hurt PAK-FA's sale prospectus as 200 Million worth AC will not find its way into much of air forces. The Russians hope that with super maneuverability, they would be able to increase the survivability. but all in all, PAK-FA is not the class of F-22


----------



## SBD-3

rockstar said:


> In that sense the main difference between Su-30 & FC-20 is Trust Vectoring, So far Su-30 MKI and F-22 are the only jets with TVC now.



again as i said....TVC is an addition for survivability...and FC-20 is rumored to come with WS-10A which has TVC nozzle on it. Having said that MKI's heat signature will be significantly higher than that of FC-20 being a single engine fighter (not to mention 15times more RCS)


----------



## SBD-3

General General said:


> An F 16 C shot down a Raptor during a Red Flag exercise with a missile in 2007(after which it was shot down itself). Like I said, it depends upon the technology you're using against the Raptor. I suppose a Eurofighter also has a fighting chance against it if armed with 5th gen. missiles.
> 
> SU 30MKI is the most advanced jet in the Indian Air Force inventory, and the FC 20 will be the most advanced in the Pakistan Air Force. However, if both are compared, they fair equally. One might come out on top of the other in some cases, like manuverability and payload in SU 30, and maximum ceiling and speed in the FC 20. So, giving this, the SU 30 will be used for a deep-penetration attacker/bomber and the FC 20 will be used as an interceptor/bomber.



here is an extract 


> from the Air National Guard 174th Fighter Wing will be flying training missions over the desert outside Nellis Air Force Base, trying desperately to compete during simulated combat over the high Nevada desert. Their foes are F-22 Raptors, stealth airplanes that can identify and destroy foes before their targets even know they are there.
> 
> The stakes are high--careers can be made and pilots' lives ended as dozens of warplanes share airspace in faux combat. To add to the pressure, this mission will be the Syracuse, N.Y.-based air wing's last deployment in F-16 fighters. In 2010 the wing will be assigned to fly armed drones by joystick, ending more than 60 years of manned aircraft operations.
> 
> "I'm honored to have the privilege of leading this detachment on its last deployment in the F-16," says Lt. Col. D. Scott Brenton, deputy operations group commander with the 174th Fighter Wing. "I can think of no better place to take a fighter wing on its last deployment than to Nellis." The name of the game is training, not victory, in this last mission--after all, they will be facing the most sophisticated airplane in the world.
> 
> Brenton (call sign "Gripper") has flown the F-16 for 20 years and has close to 4000 hours, including 750 hours of combat. He is also a former Weapons School instructor pilot at Nellis, the same program in which the 174th today is testing its mettle against the Raptor. He doesn't like to lose, but against the F-22 he has little choice. "Fighter pilots are competitive by nature. When the F-22 first became operational, most F-16 and F-15 pilots relished the challenge of going up against it," he says. "I know I did. That is, until I actually did it and discovered how humbling an experience it really was."
> 
> The F-22's manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, and the Air Force cite a 30:1 kill ratio between Raptors and their prey. That doesn't equate to one F-22 taking on dozens of enemies; the figure means that for every Raptor shot down, 30 opposing airplanes are expected to be killed. "The F-22 was not built to fight a fair fight," Brenton says.
> 
> The Art of Losing
> No U.S. airplane--or any other in the world--can match the F-22 in a dogfight during combat training. To get experience in realistic battle conditions, Raptor pilots--always the Blue Team-- are training with U.S. pilots who serve as adversaries, or "Red Teams." Last week, Raptor pilots finished training against Navy F-15s and F/A-18 Super Hornets in Japan. From February through April, Nellis hosts F-22s at the 2009 Red Flag wargames, a six-week, multinational training exercise held at Eielson Air Force Base in Alaska and at Nellis.
> 
> F-22s dominate at Red Flag as well. Red Teams flying F-16s and F-15s take them on. Those who train to be the adversaries at Red Flag belong to the 64th and 65th Aggressor squadrons. These seasoned Red Team veterans find it frustrating to fight what they can't see. "Aggressor pilots are not typical Air Force line units. They tend to have much more experience," says Mike Estrada, a spokesman at the air base. "And I can tell you that our Aggressor pilots are getting very tired of always getting shot down by the F-22."
> 
> The reputation of the Raptor is evident in the pride that some take in downing one in simulated combat. A photo surfaced on an aviation website that recently caused a stir when the unnamed pilot of a surveillance aircraft said the silhouette of a warplane he painted on his fuselage was an F-22 that he helped locate and shoot down during an exercise. "Some Navy pilots like to brag if they even lock on to a Raptor," says one Air Force officer.
> 
> Learning Potential of a One-Sided Fight
> In late March, Brenton's pilots faced F-22s at the Weapons Instructor Course (WIC), an intensive six-month training session that qualifies graduates to train other F-22 pilots from their respective units. Unlike Red Flag, WIC is a classroom, with lessons taught in the air as well as behind desks. The students' adversaries come from Air Force active-duty squadrons, National Guard and Reserve units, Navy and Marine tactical aviation units and from the indigenous Adversary Tactics Squadrons stationed at Nellis.
> 
> Red Team pilots trying to shoot down Raptors study intelligence reports about foreign countries' air forces and operate their own aircraft, missiles and radar to emulate the emerging threats and give their opponents a tough time. However, the disparity between the Raptor, which can evade enemy radar and shoot from farther away, means that Red Teams usually get the call over their radio that they have been killed before they even know the fight started.
> 
> "My F-16 is still a formidable weapons system in its own right. But it is not even in the same league as an F-22," Brenton says. "Technology keeps the F-22 a virtually undetectable and untouchable regime. It is fair to say that unless an F-22 driver makes a mistake, or has a critical system failure, I will always lose a fight against him. That is a good thing. As a nation, we want it this way. We also want him to be able to handle two, six or eight of us completely on his own."


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## ASHISH KAUSHIK

General General said:


> An F 16 C shot down a Raptor during a Red Flag exercise with a missile in 2007(after which it was shot down itself). Like I said, it depends upon the technology you're using against the Raptor. I suppose a Eurofighter also has a fighting chance against it if armed with 5th gen. missiles.
> 
> SU 30MKI is the most advanced jet in the Indian Air Force inventory, and the FC 20 will be the most advanced in the Pakistan Air Force. However, if both are compared, they fair equally. One might come out on top of the other in some cases, like manuverability and payload in SU 30, and maximum ceiling and speed in the FC 20. So, giving this, the SU 30 will be used for a deep-penetration attacker/bomber and the FC 20 will be used as an interceptor/bomber.



J-10B is not comparable to Su-30mki . J-10b is a cheap chinese aircraft with inferior MSA radar , avionics , EW machine etc. 

On the other hand , MKI is a well reputed air superiority aircraft with TVC and superior PESA Bars radar which can detect a J-10 from 200+ kms. 
[/B]


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## Trac

ASHISH KAUSHIK said:


> J-10B is not comparable to Su-30mki . J-10b is a cheap chinese aircraft with inferior MSA radar , avionics , EW machine etc.
> 
> On the other hand , MKI is a well reputed air superiority aircraft with TVC and superior PESA Bars radar which can detect a J-10 from 200+ kms.
> [/B]



Buddy dnt tell truth here otherwise you got banned 
They are comparing MKI with uncomplete fighter 

Engine : under development
Aesa : Pata nahi

but still batter than MKI

Now some people start to say that Chinese kept all secret so why they dnt compare J10b with F22 cuase may be its batter than F22 
who knows???


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## ASHISH KAUSHIK

J-10 B's radar will definitely be MSA (mechanically scanned array radar) not AESA .


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## DANGER-ZONE

WAQAS119 said:


> Isn't Pakistan version of J10 i.e., J10B will be having DSI intakes?? Pictures seems to be wrong!



Buddy thats an old picture and info too, about the time when PAF showed interest in J-10. At that time there was no sign of j-10b

*here is Fc-20*





Fc-20 would look like this one or it would be exactly this.


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## DANGER-ZONE

ASHISH KAUSHIK said:


> J-10B is not comparable to Su-30mki . J-10b is a cheap chinese aircraft with inferior MSA radar , avionics , EW machine etc.
> 
> On the other hand , MKI is a well reputed air superiority aircraft with TVC and superior PESA Bars radar which can detect a J-10 from 200+ kms.
> [/B]





Trac said:


> Buddy dnt tell truth here otherwise you got banned
> *They are comparing MKI with uncomplete fighter*
> 
> *Engine : under development
> Aesa : Pata nahi
> 
> but still batter than MKI*
> 
> Now some people start to say that Chinese kept all secret so why they dnt compare J10b with F22 cuase may be its batter than F22
> who knows???





ASHISH KAUSHIK said:


> J-10 B's radar will definitely be MSA (mechanically scanned array radar) not AESA .



it is similar situation, as u compare ur "fighter of nowhere" LCA Tejas with worlds 4+ gen fighters.
where as 
LCA in service = no where
Radar = dont know.
Engine = dont have.
maneuverability = super duper while having delta wings, only.
Class of fighter = 4+++ (just like un born Lavi )

we just wanted to make u laugh by comparing J10 with MKI as ur LCA providing us clasiical entertainment to us for the last twenty years. 

happy now


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## rockstarIN

hasnain0099 said:


> again as i said....TVC is an addition for survivability...and FC-20 is rumored to come with WS-10A which has TVC nozzle on it. Having said that MKI's heat signature will be significantly higher than that of FC-20 being a single engine fighter (not to mention 15times more RCS)



TVC always a real advantage, which was acknowledged by Singapore, US, UK & French pilots.(while exercises with IAF).

About RCS, in EW&C environment, there is hardly any surprises in the air.


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## rockstarIN

Would like to know, if JF-17 or J-10 participated any of the air combat excercises against other air forces? If yes, what is the opinion from the enemy pilots please.


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## General General

As far as I know, they still haven't taken part in any exercise. The J 10a has taken part in exibitions, but that's all (we know). As for JF 17, it still has to be fully integrated into the Pakistan Air Force, besides, the first 50 will be a very basic version of the aircraft. The next batch will be an evolved version that will integrate European and possibly American tech.


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## rockstarIN

General General said:


> As far as I know, they still haven't taken part in any exercise. The J 10a has taken part in exibitions, but that's all (we know). As for JF 17, it still has to be fully integrated into the Pakistan Air Force, besides, the first 50 will be a very basic version of the aircraft. The next batch will be an evolved version that will integrate European and possibly American tech.



Yet to tested against other AFs then,

When will the JF-17 new version will be operational with PAF?


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## General General

As far as I have learned, the JF 17 will be divided into blocks of 50, each one more advanced than the last. Finishing at a (yet unconfirmed) stealth(y) version, equalent to f-15 Silent Eagle. The JF-17 project will last till 2025. So, we might expect the Pakistan Air Force to come out with the next version of the aircraft within 3-5 years. Ofcourse it all depends upon the political and economic situation of the country. They won't exactly be announcing multi-billion dollar deals for radars and missiles when the country is facing its worst disaster.
Comming back to the topic, as far as I can decipher the intentions of the PAF chief, he does not seem very enthusiastic about thrust vectoring technology for his air force. He _did _say that TV is not very useful in modern long-range BVRM air missions of today, however he mentioned it _was_ useful in dodging an incoming missile. Which makes me wonder if the new TV engines being developed and tested on J-10, are for the Chinese 10B or the Pakistani FC-20.


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## Donatello

General General said:


> As far as I have learned, the JF 17 will be divided into blocks of 50, each one more advanced than the last. Finishing at a (yet unconfirmed) stealth(y) version, equalent to f-15 Silent Eagle. The JF-17 project will last till 2025. So, we might expect the Pakistan Air Force to come out with the next version of the aircraft within 3-5 years. Ofcourse it all depends upon the political and economic situation of the country. They won't exactly be announcing multi-billion dollar deals for radars and missiles when the country is facing its worst disaster.
> Comming back to the topic, as far as I can decipher the intentions of the PAF chief, he does not seem very enthusiastic about thrust vectoring technology for his air force. He _did _say that TV is not very useful in modern long-range BVRM air missions of today, however he mentioned it _was_ useful in dodging an incoming missile. Which makes me wonder if the new TV engines being developed and tested on J-10, are for the Chinese 10B or the Pakistani FC-20.




Sir jee, TVC for Single Engine fighter jets is still a new concept. You really need to take into account the complexity of TVC on single engine jets as they are primarily made around the engine it self.

Mig 35, SU 30, F/A22 all are two engine jets where the jet is more balanced.

However, NASA experimented with X-31 for years....look here...

Rockwell-MBB X-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Also, some good read on F-16 forums..

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-11016.html



In anycase, modern AAMs can turn at upwards of 20Gs, way more than what a jet can handle and even if it did, the pilot won't.

Yes TVC might have advantage in dog fights, but that has yet to be seen in a full combat.

I don't know why JF-17 would be made more complex by adding TVC. The whole concept is of having a flexible cheap fighter.

We have J-10 for heavy roles.....lets see.


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## siegecrossbow

penumbra said:


> Sir jee, TVC for Single Engine fighter jets is still a new concept. You really need to take into account the complexity of TVC on single engine jets as they are primarily made around the engine it self.
> 
> Mig 35, SU 30, F/A22 all are two engine jets where the jet is more balanced.
> 
> However, NASA experimented with X-31 for years....look here...
> 
> Rockwell-MBB X-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Also, some good read on F-16 forums..
> 
> http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-11016.html
> 
> 
> 
> In anycase, modern AAMs can turn at upwards of 20Gs, way more than what a jet can handle and even if it did, the pilot won't.
> 
> Yes TVC might have advantage in dog fights, but that has yet to be seen in a full combat.
> 
> I don't know why JF-17 would be made more complex by adding TVC. The whole concept is of having a flexible cheap fighter.
> 
> We have J-10 for heavy roles.....lets see.



Agreed. Adding TVC to J-10 might also be redundant since the delta-canard airframe already provides sufficient manueverability. I think the priority should be developing a more powerful, reliable engine.


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## Kompromat

TVC is good but JHMCS makes it almost worthless , we should bring in such a great system for JFT and FC-20.


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## General General

penumbra said:


> Sir jee, TVC for Single Engine fighter jets is still a new concept. You really need to take into account the complexity of TVC on single engine jets as they are primarily made around the engine it self.
> 
> Mig 35, SU 30, F/A22 all are two engine jets where the jet is more balanced.
> 
> However, NASA experimented with X-31 for years....look here...
> 
> Rockwell-MBB X-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Also, some good read on F-16 forums..
> 
> http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-11016.html
> 
> 
> 
> In anycase, modern AAMs can turn at upwards of 20Gs, way more than what a jet can handle and even if it did, the pilot won't.
> 
> Yes TVC might have advantage in dog fights, but that has yet to be seen in a full combat.
> 
> *I don't know why JF-17 would be made more complex by adding TVC.* The whole concept is of having a flexible cheap fighter.
> 
> We have J-10 for heavy roles.....lets see.



I'd like you point out *where*, in my post, did I say that TV was an option for the *JF-17*? I was refering to the *J-10*. Chinese are in the process of manufacturing WS 10A engine for the new versions of J-10. It is already being powered by the AL-31 engine. The same engine, but different variant, is used on SU 30MKI and has TV. TV is not only used in manuverability, but for short take-off and landings. For more information on the Chinese plans on introducing TV on J-10, look here:International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Chinese Dimensions of the 2005 Moscow Aerospace Show


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## Jungibaaz

Black Blood said:


> TVC is good but JHMCS makes it almost worthless , we should bring in such a great system for JFT and FC-20.



Agreed, I prefer JHMCS over TVC. 

JHMCS + a 5th gen WVRAAM such as the aim-9x will give our fighters the upper hand in dogfighting.


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## siegecrossbow

rockstar said:


> Would like to know, if JF-17 or J-10 participated any of the air combat excercises against other air forces? If yes, what is the opinion from the enemy pilots please.



I think the J-10 has participated in domestic air fights with the Su-27 and Su-30 before.


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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> I think the J-10 has participated in domestic air fights with the Su-27 and Su-30 before.



what he is referring to is international or joint excercises


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## mjnaushad

rockstar said:


> Would like to know, if JF-17 or J-10 participated any of the air combat excercises against other air forces? If yes, what is the opinion from the enemy pilots please.


Not Internationally but locally JF 17 beat old F 16 many times in dog fights.....

Not to forget F 16 BLK 15 are more manuverable then newer version (Correct me if i am wrong)


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## WAQAS119

General General said:


> I'd like you point out *where*, in my post, did I say that TV was an option for the *JF-17*? I was refering to the *J-10*. Chinese are in the process of manufacturing WS 10A engine for the new versions of J-10. It is already being powered by the AL-31 engine. The same engine, but different variant, is used on SU 30MKI and has TV. TV is not only used in manuverability, but for short take-off and landings. For more information on the Chinese plans on introducing TV on J-10, look here:International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Chinese Dimensions of the 2005 Moscow Aerospace Show



I don't think J10 be having TVC! With its complex design (especially canards) will make life worse for it. Not only it will make handling difficult but also cause extraordinary stress on its structure. Article, you have provided, is too much speculative.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## siegecrossbow

hasnain0099 said:


> what he is referring to is international or joint excercises



The thing is China will never dare to have international exercises. Not when everyone starts shouting "OMG the warmongering Chinese are planning to take over Asia" every time we dig an irrigation canal.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## rockstarIN

siegecrossbow said:


> The thing is China will never dare to have international exercises. Not when everyone starts shouting "OMG the warmongering Chinese are planning to take over Asia" every time we dig an irrigation canal.



What is the reason Y China Air Force not conducting joint exercise even with PAF?


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## amalakas

rockstar said:


> What is the reason Y China Air Force not conducting joint exercise even with PAF?



why should they? 

And besides you are forgeting the historical factor, China has always been mostly keeping to itself (mostly).


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## SBD-3

rockstar said:


> What is the reason Y China Air Force not conducting joint exercise even with PAF?



They did have one in 2003 
here is a discussion on it
Pakistani Defence Forum > Plaaf And Paf Air War Exercises


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## siegecrossbow

rockstar said:


> What is the reason Y China Air Force not conducting joint exercise even with PAF?



That would be correct. The U.S. won't be thrilled if China learns about the full capabilities of Block 52 F-16s.



> They did have one in 2003
> here is a discussion on it
> Pakistani Defence Forum > Plaaf And Paf Air War Exercises



I'm pretty sure that was just a B.S. source bro.

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## Donatello

siegecrossbow said:


> That would be correct. The U.S. won't be thrilled if China learns about the full capabilities of Block 52 F-16s.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure that was just a B.S. source bro.





Err, the Chinese may not be able to fly the F-16 themselves but they can talk to PAF pilots, who have been there since the good old days of F-6 and F-7 Aircraft and recently even the Mechanics for F-16s who were posted in Chengdu for the JF-17 project.


Chinese Pilots can always fly them, though in limited numbers and secrecy in Pakistan. How is USA gonna find about them?

CIA still admits that it has no clue to where most of Pakistani Nuclear weapons are......i am sure if PAF wanted Chinese to Fly BLK 52 they could manage it. Couple more years and US personal might be gone from Jacobabad.


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## siegecrossbow

penumbra said:


> Err, the Chinese may not be able to fly the F-16 themselves but they can talk to PAF pilots, who have been there since the good old days of F-6 and F-7 Aircraft and recently even the Mechanics for F-16s who were posted in Chengdu for the JF-17 project.
> 
> 
> Chinese Pilots can always fly them, though in limited numbers and secrecy in Pakistan. How is USA gonna find about them?
> 
> CIA still admits that it has no clue to where most of Pakistani Nuclear weapons are......i am sure if PAF wanted Chinese to Fly BLK 52 they could manage it. Couple more years and US personal might be gone from Jacobabad.



I never doubted that there are exchanges between PAF and PLAAF pilots. I am just suspicious about claims that there were mock airfights between the two nations.


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## MZUBAIR

PAF have number of MOU's with UAE Air force, Turkey Air force, China Air Force, Egyption Air Force, Jordan Air force.......
These MOU's are kind of exchange of pilots ........but countries also keep the AirCraft Vendors concerns....Like PAF pilots in Turkey couldnt fly F-16 Block 52 untill 2006 when ristrictions were remove USA.....There were number of pilots flew F-16 Block 52 after 2006.

So number of pilots from PAF fly aircrafts in China similarly Chinees pilots fly PAF AC's in PAkistan but PAF pilots cant Flly J-11, Su 30 similarly Chinees pilots cant fly F-16's.

Besides that China has many other soruces to study abt Block 52....its not a big deal these days.


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## fatman17

PAF has never excercised with the PLAAF AFAIK - but they shd IMO

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## siegecrossbow

fatman17 said:


> PAF has never excercised with the PLAAF AFAIK - but they shd IMO



Yes this will benefit both sides tremendously but particularly PLAAF. The Chinese air force has not had a lot of experience post Vietnam War and we need help from the Pakistani Airforce, which achieved aerial victories with 4th gen fighters, to complete the modernization of the Air Force doctrines.


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## SomeGuy

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF have number of MOU's with UAE Air force, Turkey Air force, China Air Force, Egyption Air Force, Jordan Air force.......
> These MOU's are kind of exchange of pilots ........but countries also keep the AirCraft Vendors concerns....Like PAF pilots in Turkey couldnt fly F-16 Block 52 untill 2006 when ristrictions were remove USA.....There were number of pilots flew F-16 Block 52 after 2006.
> 
> So number of pilots from PAF fly aircrafts in China similarly Chinees pilots fly PAF AC's in PAkistan but PAF pilots cant Flly J-11, Su 30 similarly Chinees pilots cant fly F-16's.
> 
> Besides that China has many other soruces to study abt Block 52....its not a big deal these days.



What's this then?:



fatman17 said:


> *Viper Driver*
> 
> Name Wg.Cmd. Aamir Masood
> Country Pakistan
> Unit 9th squadron "Griffins"
> Flying F-16s
> Viper Hours 2000
> Currently flying Su-30MK1 for the Chinese Navy.
> 
> 2006: Commanding Officer of 9 sqn.


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## Donatello

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF have number of MOU's with UAE Air force, Turkey Air force, China Air Force, Egyption Air Force, Jordan Air force.......
> These MOU's are kind of exchange of pilots ........but countries also keep the AirCraft Vendors concerns....Like PAF pilots in Turkey couldnt fly F-16 Block 52 untill 2006 when ristrictions were remove USA.....There were number of pilots flew F-16 Block 52 after 2006.
> 
> So number of pilots from PAF fly aircrafts in China similarly Chinees pilots fly PAF AC's in PAkistan but PAF pilots cant Flly J-11, Su 30 similarly Chinees pilots cant fly F-16's.
> 
> Besides that China has many other soruces to study abt Block 52....its not a big deal these days.






The issue of PAF pilots not being able to fly the Turkish BLK50 jets seems reasonable as those were US jets and Pakistan was under US restrictions.

But in case of China it doesn't matter. J-11 is Chinese and the fact it is based on SU27/30 does not make a bit of difference. Russia can protest all it want, and just like the recent MIG 29 vs JF-17 market debates, it cannot do much beyond a certain point.

Russia is so desperate for money so they don't want to piss China off which is still buying their tech. Otherwise it would be only India as their large customer.


Remember how Pakistan was not supposed to have Nuclear reactors? Not only did it get civilian reactors from China, but also Military ones, plus weapons support and ballistic missiles all under the nose of the Western powers.


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## AVIAN

siegecrossbow said:


> I never doubted that there are exchanges between PAF and PLAAF pilots. I am just suspicious about claims that there were mock airfights between the two nations.



Why do you getting suspicious about claims of mock airfight is something beyond me. Pakistani Pilots have been extensively trained on Chinese supplied Fighter Jets and Mock battles are often the part of such a training session.


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## mjnaushad

SomeGuy said:


> What's this then?:


Sir pshamim denide this on other forum i think.....No PAF pilot is flying Su 30

*Still I am not confimed until i find the post*


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## DESERT FIGHTER

mnushad i think the info is frm F-16.net!


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## mjnaushad

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> mnushad i think the info is frm F-16.net!


I know....I read it on f16.net first time too...But i remember i read it somewhere on this forum that A TT member denide it. Tried to search but its almost impossible to find in thousands of posts.


----------



## siegecrossbow

AVIAN said:


> Why do you getting suspicious about claims of mock airfight is something beyond me. Pakistani Pilots have been extensively trained on Chinese supplied Fighter Jets and Mock battles are often the part of such a training session.



I was thinking more along the lines of Red Flag/Blue Flag. Besides I don't think that Chinese pilots could really benefit from going up against Chinese planes.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

The only chinese jets we have been using are modified J-7Pgs, A-5 in the past most of our jets were either brit or US... Star fighter,Sabres,mirages,F-16s etc.


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## siegecrossbow

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> The only chinese jets we have been using are modified J-7Pgs, A-5 in the past most of our jets were either brit or US... Star fighter,Sabres,mirages,F-16s etc.



How dare you forget F-6 and FC-1 ? (Just kidding bro).

I do get your point. It is a common misconception that most of the jets flown by Pakistan are Chinese just because China and Pakistan are military partners.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

siegecrossbow said:


> How dare you forget F-6 and FC-1 ? (Just kidding bro).
> 
> I do get your point. It is a common misconception that most of the jets flown by Pakistan are Chinese just because China and Pakistan are military partners.



 F.16.net reports a viper man practising on ur SU30.
And u still owe me noodles for occupying G/B

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## S-A-B-E-R->

siegecrossbow said:


> FC-20 hasn't been finalized yet and I don't think pictures have leaked out just yet. Also your picture isn't showing.



basically these r the russian sketches of j 10 development also shown in previous posts

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## siegecrossbow

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> basically these r the russian sketches of j 10 development also shown in previous posts



I hope those aren't it because I think most Pakistani friends want J-10Bs.


----------



## wangrong

*simulator*

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## wangrong



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## siegecrossbow

Does anyone know the precise number of J-10s (both As and Bs) currently in service or a good estimation?


----------



## Donatello

siegecrossbow said:


> How dare you forget F-6 and FC-1 ? (Just kidding bro).
> 
> I do get your point. It is a common misconception that most of the jets flown by Pakistan are Chinese just because China and Pakistan are military partners.



Actually a lot of our fleet has been China, when we found that Chinese offered us the ability to flexibily modify the jets to our needs.

F-6....Soviet design, western avionics and missiles made in China flown by Pakistani men.

F-7, western avionics, missiles but made in China.


JF-17 same story.


Mirage didn't offer much other than ROSE while F-16s we all know what happens with Uncle sam.


Good lesson that we learned for our own betterment.

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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> Does anyone know the precise number of J-10s (both As and Bs) currently in service or a good estimation?



I read somewhere about 300 J-10A and S in service....J-10BZ is expected to join PLAAF by the end of this year

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## wangrong




----------



## xuwei

Sorry,my English is poor,its my first reply.
I want to know PAF have F16C/D and JF17 already,they need J10B/S or not?


----------



## SBD-3

xuwei said:


> Sorry,my English is poor,its my first reply.
> I want to know PAF have F16C/D and JF17 already,they need J10B/S or not?



they certainly will, its always good to add a potent weapon in one's arsenel. FC-20 will be just like it. F-16s are more of a stop gap IMHO. the way PAF has gone for Block 52 is that FC-20 may be some distance away

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## mjnaushad

xuwei said:


> Sorry,my English is poor,its my first reply.
> I want to know PAF have F16C/D and JF17 already,they need J10B/S or not?


We have F 16s and JFT (which will become a hell of AC after every block) but PAF dont want to put all the eggs in one Basket thats why J10B is required.

In Simple words PAF is interested in J10B

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## SBD-3

mjnaushad said:


> We have F 16s and JFT (which will become a hell of AC after but PAF dont want to put all the eggs in one Basket thats why J10B is required.
> 
> In Simple words PAF is interested in J10B



thats another thing....bt at the moment, the most advanced fighter in PAF inventory remain Bl 52+. As FC-20 is expected in 2015 so there is a definit need for a front liner.


----------



## siegecrossbow

hasnain0099 said:


> thats another thing....bt at the moment, the most advanced fighter in PAF inventory remain Bl 52+. As FC-20 is expected in 2015 so there is a definit need for a front liner.



I don't know whether the J-10B itself would receive further upgrades by the time we get to 2015. So is Pakistan considering making the J-10B the spearhead of her air force for the next decade?


----------



## xuwei

mjnaushad said:


> We have F 16s and JFT (which will become a hell of AC after every block) but PAF dont want to put all the eggs in one Basket thats why J10B is required.
> 
> In Simple words PAF is interested in J10B



thanks.
As i know,PAF has much Military aid from UnitState,they can use it buy F16s which as well as J10B.
In the near future,Chinese 5'th Fighter will develope,it's the real good thing for PAF.

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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> I don't know whether the J-10B itself would receive further upgrades by the time we get to 2015. So is Pakistan considering making the J-10B the spearhead of her air force for the next decade?



yes indeed...what expected upgrades i can think of are of course western and some local avionics integration by PAC i dont think we will see any significant structual redesign on the bird


----------



## xuwei

siegecrossbow said:


> I don't know whether the J-10B itself would receive further upgrades by the time we get to 2015. So is Pakistan considering making the J-10B the spearhead of her air force for the next decade?



did you heard J10-21?
============
klonoa1121&#65306;&#23545;&#20102;&#31163;&#39064;&#19968;&#19979;, huzhigeng&#20320;&#30693;&#36947;J10-21&#26159;&#20160;&#20040;&#19996;&#35199;&#21527;


huzhigeng&#65306;&#12304; &#25105;&#21482;&#30693;&#36947;&#27516;&#21313;B&#19981;&#26159;&#27516;&#21313;&#31995;&#21015;&#30340;&#26368;&#32456;&#25913;&#22411;&#12290;&#12305;

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## xuwei

the imaging picture of 5'th aircraft

i think many Technology of 5th aircraft will be used in J10

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## SBD-3

xuwei said:


> did you heard J10-21?
> ============
> klonoa1121&#65306;&#23545;&#20102;&#31163;&#39064;&#19968;&#19979;, huzhigeng&#20320;&#30693;&#36947;J10-21&#26159;&#20160;&#20040;&#19996;&#35199;&#21527;
> 
> 
> huzhigeng&#65306;&#12304; &#25105;&#21482;&#30693;&#36947;&#27516;&#21313;B&#19981;&#26159;&#27516;&#21313;&#31995;&#21015;&#30340;&#26368;&#32456;&#25913;&#22411;&#12290;&#12305;



are you referring to Super 10?.....well its not going to ba a 5th gen, rather something similar to typhoon.


----------



## xuwei

hasnain0099 said:


> are you referring to Super 10?.....well its not going to ba a 5th gen, rather something similar to typhoon.



maby.
some friends of chinese forum just Mentioned it,but unwill say more.
i guess it's more powefull than J10B.


----------



## SBD-3

xuwei said:


> maby.
> some friends of chinese forum just Mentioned it,but unwill say more.
> i guess it's more powefull than J10B.


yes it will be cuz it will have SC due to twin engines, more weapons load, more range and adapatability for Carriers


----------



## SBD-3

xuwei said:


> i think many Technology of 5th aircraft will be used in J10



here is what I've got


----------



## xuwei

hasnain0099 said:


> yes it will be cuz it will have SC due to twin engines, more weapons load, more range and adapatability for Carriers



hehe,it is the 5'th image pictrue.
likes J10,has Canard,and DSI ,but inlet (not Drum)is Adjustable.


----------



## SBD-3

xuwei said:


> hehe,it is the 5'th image pictrue.
> likes J10,has Canard,and DSI ,but inlet (not Drum)is Adjustable.



its not a 5th gen fighter.....but the expected pinnacle of J-10 Development


----------



## siegecrossbow

xuwei said:


> did you heard J10-21?
> ============
> klonoa1121&#65306;&#23545;&#20102;&#31163;&#39064;&#19968;&#19979;, huzhigeng&#20320;&#30693;&#36947;J10-21&#26159;&#20160;&#20040;&#19996;&#35199;&#21527;
> 
> 
> huzhigeng&#65306;&#12304; &#25105;&#21482;&#30693;&#36947;&#27516;&#21313;B&#19981;&#26159;&#27516;&#21313;&#31995;&#21015;&#30340;&#26368;&#32456;&#25913;&#22411;&#12290;&#12305;



As a matter of fact my friend I did a partial translation of this very article on Sinodefence. I was extremely startled by some of the informations leaked by huzhigeng.

If anyone needs to see the partial translation I am more than happy to post it here.


----------



## S.U.R.B.

siegecrossbow said:


> As a matter of fact my friend I did a partial translation of this very article on Sinodefence. I was extremely startled by some of the informations leaked by huzhigeng.
> 
> If anyone needs to see the partial translation I am more than happy to post it here.



Yes please do share it with us.


----------



## siegecrossbow

Here is the original (there is more but I haven't translated them yet):

huzhigeng&#32769;&#22823;&#29190;&#26009;&#30340;&#19996;&#35199;&#24456;&#22810;&#37117;&#23454;&#29616;&#20102;&#21834;&#65292;&#20170;&#24180;&#30475;&#19981;&#21040;&#37325;&#22235;&#20102;&#65292;&#30475;&#26469;&#20182;&#19981;&#26159;&#22312;&#21561;&#29275;~-

&#12288;huzhigeng &#65306;&#12304;&#25104;&#37117;&#30340;JJ&#65292;&#26412;&#26469;&#23601;&#26426;&#21160;&#24615;&#27604;F22&#24378;&#21322;&#20010;&#26723;&#27425;&#65292;&#36825;&#24456;&#22909;&#29702;&#35299;&#21568;&#65292;&#36793;&#26465;&#21152;YA&#23376;&#65288;YA&#23376;&#27604;&#36825;&#19978; &#38754;&#30340;&#22270;&#35201;&#22823;&#65289; &#65292;&#21319;&#21147;&#20307;&#26426;&#36523;&#65292;&#20917;&#19988;DSI&#26159;&#21487;&#35843;&#30340;&#65292;&#25152;&#20197;&#20174;&#21069;&#38754;&#30475;&#36215;&#26469;&#12290;&#36827;&#27668;&#36947;&#26377;&#20123;&#24618;&#24618;&#30340;&#65292;&#19981;&#36807;&#25972;&#26426;&#30456;&#24403;&#31185;&#24187;&#65292; &#27604;F22&#35201;&#31185; &#24187;&#12290;&#12305;


&#12288;&#12288;huzhigeng &#65306;&#12304;&#33267;&#20110;&#27784;&#38451;&#30340;&#37027;&#20010;&#33853;&#36873;&#30340;&#19977;&#32764;&#38754;&#38634;HU&#65292;&#20010;&#23376;&#22826;&#22823;&#65292;&#20840;&#26426;&#37325;&#37327;&#20063;&#22823;&#65292;&#21448;&#38271;&#21448;&#32454;&#65292;&#39134;&#25511;&#26497;&#24230;&#22797;&#26434;&#65292;&#36229; &#24033;&#36824;&#27604;&#19981;&#19978;&#25104; &#37117;&#30340;&#65292;&#38544;&#36523;&#24615;&#33021;&#20063;&#27604;&#19981;&#19978;&#25104;&#37117;&#30340;&#65288;&#21452;&#19977;&#35282;&#32764;&#23545;&#24433;&#36523;&#36824;&#26159;&#26377;&#20123;&#24433;&#21709;&#30340;&#65289;&#12290;&#26426;&#21160;&#24615;&#21452;&#26041;&#21508;&#26377;&#21315;&#31179;&#65292;&#25104;&#37117;&#30340; &#30636;&#30424;&#21644;&#31283;&#30424;&#30456; &#24403;&#20986;&#33394;&#65292;&#33021;&#37327;&#26426;&#21160;&#26356;&#24378;&#65292;&#25152;&#20197;&#36824;&#21152;&#20102;&#20010;&#22823;&#36793;&#26465;&#65292;&#37197;&#21512;YA&#23376;&#65292;&#22312;&#21152;&#33713;&#29305;&#21644;DSI&#20004;&#32773;&#36873;&#25321;&#26041;&#38754;&#65292;&#25104;&#37117; &#30340;&#21487;&#35843;DSI &#65292;&#27604;&#19981;&#21487;&#35843;&#30340;&#21152;&#33713;&#29305;&#36827;&#27668;&#36947;&#26356;&#20808;&#36827;&#65288;601&#30340;&#19987;&#23478;&#29616;&#22312;&#20063;&#22312;611&#25152;&#65289;&#12305;


&#12288;&#12288;huzhigeng &#65306;&#12304;DSI&#21253;&#21253;&#26159;&#22266;&#23450;&#30340;&#65292;&#19981;&#33021;&#21160;&#65292;&#20294;&#26159;&#36827;&#27668;&#36947;&#21487;&#35843;&#65292;&#25152;&#20197;&#26679;&#26426;&#20174;&#21069;&#38754;&#30475;&#36215;&#26469;&#24456;&#24618;&#65292;&#24456;&#24618;&#12290;&#12305;


&#12288;&#12288;huzhigeng &#65306;&#12304;&#39640;&#23665;&#30340;&#26159;&#26426;&#33145;&#36827;&#27668;&#30340;&#65292;&#22235;&#20195;&#26681;&#26412;&#19981;&#20250;&#26426;&#33145;&#36827;&#27668;&#65292;&#39640;&#23665;&#30340;&#22270;&#21644;&#20197;&#21069;&#26366;&#32463;&#23384;&#22312;&#20110;&#22270;&#32440;&#19978;&#30340;&#22823;&#21313;&#27604;&#36739;&#30456; &#36817;&#12290;&#12305;


&#12288;&#12288;huzhigeng &#65306;&#12304;F22&#37027;&#26679;&#30340;&#24120;&#35268;&#24067;&#23616;&#25105;&#20204;&#20061;&#21313;&#24180;&#20195;&#23601;&#25630;&#24471;&#20986;&#26469;&#65292;&#20294;&#26159;F22&#24378;&#22823;&#24182;&#19981;&#21482;&#26159;&#22240;&#20026;&#27668;&#21160;&#24067;&#23616;(F2 2&#30340;&#27668;&#21160;&#24067;&#23616; &#20063;&#20165;&#20165;&#26159;&#20843;&#20061;&#21313;&#24180;&#30340;&#26368;&#39640;&#27700;&#24179&#65292;&#32780;&#26159;&#27668;&#21160;&#24067;&#23616;&#21152;&#39134;&#25511;&#65292;&#21152;&#24378;&#22823;&#30340;&#25317;&#26377;&#25512;&#21147;&#30690;&#37327;&#30340;&#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#65292;&#20197;&#21450;&#24378;&#22823; &#30340;&#30005;&#23376;&#25216;&#26415;&#12290; &#25105;&#20204;&#22914;&#26524;&#21644;F22&#19968;&#26679;&#25630;&#20010;&#21516;&#26679;&#30340;&#24120;&#35268;&#24067;&#23616;&#65292;&#25105;&#20204;&#26412;&#26469;&#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#23601;&#27604;&#21035;&#20154;&#24046;&#19968;&#20123;(&#24403;&#28982;WS15&#21644;F1 19&#19968;&#20010;&#26723;&#27425; &#65292;&#20294;&#26159;F119&#20063;&#21482;&#26159;&#32654;&#22269;&#20061;&#21313;&#24180;&#20195;&#30340;&#25216;&#26415&#65292;&#37027;&#36824;&#23545;&#25239;&#20010;&#27611;&#21568;&#12290;&#25105;&#20204;&#30340;&#22235;&#20195;&#30340;&#35201;&#27714;&#35828;&#26126;&#20070;&#23545;&#24615;&#33021;&#21487; &#26159;&#35201;&#27714;&#24456;&#39640;&#30340; &#12290;&#25152;&#20197;&#25104;&#37117;&#35201;&#29992;&#30456;&#24403;&#22797;&#26434;&#30340;&#27668;&#21160;&#24067;&#23616;&#65292;&#21464;&#24577;&#30340;&#27668;&#21160;&#24067;&#23616;&#12290;&#12305;


&#12288;&#12288;huzhigeng &#65306;&#12304;&#21152;&#33713;&#29305;&#36827;&#27668;&#36947;611&#20061;&#21313;&#24180;&#20195;&#23601;&#25630;&#24471;&#24456;&#29087;&#20102;&#65292;&#19981;&#35201;&#20197;&#20026;&#21152;&#33713;&#29305;&#26159;&#19975;&#33021;&#30340;&#65292;&#22825;&#19979;&#26080;&#25932;&#65292;&#20063;&#26377;&#19981;&#23569;&#32570; &#38480;&#12290;&#12305;


&#12288;&#12288;huzhigeng &#65306;&#12304;&#26126;&#24180;&#24213;&#23601;&#21487;&#20197;&#30475;&#21040;&#26679;&#26426;&#20102;&#65292;&#19971;&#26376;&#20221;&#24050;&#32463;&#22522;&#26412;&#19978;&#21457;&#23436;&#20102;&#22270;&#65292;&#26679;&#26426;&#24050;&#32463;&#24320;&#36896;&#65292;601&#30340;&#19981;&#23569;&#19987;&#23478;&#25972;&#22825; &#23432;&#22312;611&#25152; &#65292;&#32780;&#19988;&#27611;&#23376;&#19981;&#23569;&#19987;&#23478;&#20063;&#22312;611&#25152;&#12290;&#25152;&#20197;&#19978;&#27425;&#21160;&#21592;&#24320;&#22823;&#20250;&#30456;&#24403;&#28909;&#38393;&#65292;&#21508;&#36335;&#31070;&#20185;&#19968;&#36215;&#25253;&#36947;&#12290;&#12305; 

huzhigeng&#65306;&#12304;&#37325;&#22411;&#26426;&#26159;&#20840;&#22269;&#22823;&#21327;&#20316;&#65292;&#26041;&#26696;&#26159;611&#25152;&#30340;&#65292;&#39134;&#25511;&#20063;&#26159;611&#35774;&#35745;&#30340;&#65292;&#32467;&#26500;&#35774;&#35745;&#26159;60 1&#21644;611&#20849;&#21516;&#35774;&#35745;&#65292;(&#22240;&#20026;&#21452;&#21457;&#25112;&#26426;601&#32463;&#39564;&#26356;&#22810;&#65292;&#20170;&#24180;&#37325;&#22235;&#21457;&#22270;&#12290;601&#25152;&#20063;&#21442;&#19982;&#36827;&#26469;&#20102;&#65292;&#32780;&#19988; &#26426;&#20307;&#32467;&#26500;&#36824; &#26159;601&#25152;&#20026;&#20027;&#65292;&#19996;&#21271;&#22312;&#26426;&#20307;&#32467;&#26500;&#65292;&#22797;&#21512;&#26448;&#26009;&#37096;&#20214;.&#38043;&#21512;&#37329;&#37096;&#20214;&#26041;&#38754;&#27604;&#25104;&#37117;&#26377;&#20248;&#21183;&#12290;&#25152;&#20197;&#19978;&#27425;&#21457;&#22270;&#65292; 601&#25152;&#24537;&#27515; &#25481;&#20102;&#65292;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#22235;&#20195;&#35201;&#21457;&#22270;&#65292;&#36824;&#35201;&#24110;611&#25152;&#37325;&#22235;&#19968;&#36215;&#21457;&#22270;&#65292;&#36824;&#22909;&#20219;&#21153;&#24050;&#32463;&#23436;&#25104;(&#25152;&#20197;&#31163;&#23376;&#40060;&#25165;&#20250;&#21561;&#22040; &#19996;&#21271;&#24471;&#20102;&#22810;&#23569; &#22810;&#23569;&#65292;&#19996;&#21271;&#20154;&#33258;&#24049;&#26377;&#22235;&#20195;&#65292;&#32780;&#19988;&#37325;&#22235;&#33258;&#24049;&#20063;&#26377;&#20221&#20004;&#36793;&#37117;&#24471;&#12290;&#12305;


&#12288;&#12288;&#26539;&#20848;&#65306;&#19996;&#21271;&#30340;&#19997;&#24102;&#26159;&#19981;&#26159;&#33328;&#36733;&#26426;&#21834;&#65311;&#38590;&#36947;&#20013;&#22269;&#36824;&#35201;&#25630;&#20960;&#20010;&#22235;&#20195;&#65311;&#36731;&#20013;&#22411;&#65311;&#37325;&#22411;&#65311;&#33328;&#36733;&#30340;&#65311;&#65311;


&#12288;&#12288;huzhigeng&#65306;&#12304;&#19996;&#21271;&#30340;&#26368;&#36817;&#21457;&#20102;&#22270;&#30340;&#26159;&#32473;&#31354;&#20891;&#29992;&#30340;&#65292;&#28023;&#20891;&#30340;&#27809;&#37027;&#20040;&#24555;&#12290;&#12305;


&#12288;&#12288;&#21035;&#31163;&#38057; &#65306;huzhigeng &#32769;&#22823;&#65292;&#20320;&#26159;&#35828;&#26426;&#22836;&#12289;&#21069;&#26426;&#36523;&#21644;&#20840;&#23610;&#23544;&#26679;&#26426;&#26377;&#24046;&#21035;&#65292;&#21518;&#26426;&#36523;&#27604;&#36739;&#25509;&#36817;&#21527;&#65311;&#35831;&#36176;&#25945;


&#12288;&#12288;huzhigeng&#65306;&#12304;611&#25152;&#19968;&#33324;&#21916;&#27426;&#29992;&#26426;&#26426;&#39564;&#35777;&#22235;&#20195;&#25216;&#26415;&#30340;&#65292;&#27516;&#21313;&#12289;&#23567;&#40857;...&#19981;&#36807;&#36825;&#20010; J J &#30340;&#36793;&#26465;&#21644;&#26679;&#26426;&#26377;&#24046;&#21035;&#30340;&#65292;&#22235;&#20195;&#26159;&#31867;&#20284;&#20110;&#23567;&#40857;&#21644;&#36229;&#32423;&#22823;&#40644;&#34562;&#37027;&#26679;&#30340;&#23574;&#25329;&#36793;&#26465;&#65292;&#24456;&#22823;&#30340;&#36793;&#26465;&#21727;&#65292;&#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#23617; &#32929;&#26159;&#22278;&#30340;&#36724;&#23545; &#31216;&#19977;&#30334;&#20845;&#21313;&#24230;&#30690;&#25512;&#65292;&#19981;&#26159;&#20108;&#20803;&#30340;&#12290;&#12305;


&#12288;&#12288;&#38738;&#20043;&#20845; &#65306;&#27491;&#22312;&#36896;&#30340;&#24212;&#35813;&#26159;01&#21407;&#22411;&#26426;&#21543;&#65311;&#22240;&#20026;&#25454;&#26576;&#29378;&#28909;&#20998;&#23376;&#30127;&#29399;*&#25152;&#35828;&#65292;&#20840;&#23610;&#23544;&#37329;&#23646;&#26679;&#26426;&#24050;&#32463;&#25630;&#23450;N&#24180;&#20102;&#65311; &#65281;


&#12288;&#12288;huzhigeng&#65306;&#12304;&#20840;&#23610;&#23544;&#37329;&#23646;&#26679;&#26426;&#30830;&#23454;&#26089;&#24050;&#32463;&#20986;&#26469;&#20102;&#65292;&#21487;&#26159;&#26377;&#20154;&#25954;&#36827;132&#25293;&#29031;&#21527;&#65311;&#36827;&#24471; &#21435;&#21527;&#65311;&#36825;&#20010;J J&#21487;&#19981;&#20250;&#20572;&#22312;&#33609;&#22320;&#19978;&#35753;&#20320;&#25293;&#30340;&#12290;01&#26550;&#30830;&#23454;&#24050;&#32463;&#22312;&#36896;&#65292;&#26679;&#26426;&#31185;&#24187;&#21448;&#27604;&#36739;&#24618;&#24322;&#65292;&#29305;&#21035;&#26159;&#20174;&#21069;&#38754;&#30475;&#12290;&#12305;


&#12288;&#12288;klonoa1121&#65306;&#23545;&#20102;&#31163;&#39064;&#19968;&#19979;, huzhigeng&#20320;&#30693;&#36947;J10-21&#26159;&#20160;&#20040;&#19996;&#35199;&#21527;


&#12288;&#12288;huzhigeng&#65306;&#12304; &#25105;&#21482;&#30693;&#36947;&#27516;&#21313;B&#19981;&#26159;&#27516;&#21313;&#31995;&#21015;&#30340;&#26368;&#32456;&#25913;&#22411;&#12290;&#12305;


&#12288;&#12288;&#21035;&#31163;&#38057;&#65306;&#35831;&#25945; huzhigeng &#32769;&#22823; &#65292;&#22235;&#20195;&#26426;&#30340;&#24635;&#35774;&#35745;&#24072;&#26159;&#35841;&#65311;&#26159;&#23435;&#25991;&#39586;&#65311;&#26472;&#20255;&#65311;&#36824;&#26159;&#26032;&#35843;&#26469;&#30340;&#23395;&#26195;&#20809;&#65311;


&#12288;&#12288;huzhigeng&#65306;&#12304;&#20255;&#21733;&#65292;&#20294;&#26159;&#23435;&#20063;&#26377;&#24456;&#22823;&#30340;&#21151;&#21171;&#65292;&#22522;&#30784;&#26159;&#20182;&#25171;&#19979;&#19979;&#30340;&#12290;&#24403;&#28982;&#65292;11&#25972;&#20010;&#22242; &#38431;&#30340;&#21151;&#21171;&#12290;&#12305;


&#12288;&#12288;cyjsk&#65306; &#32769;&#22823;&#21487;&#35843;DSI&#26159;&#20160;&#20040;&#27010;&#24565;&#65311;&#38590;&#36947;&#26159;&#40723;&#21253;&#21487;&#35843;&#65311;&#37027;&#21487;&#30495;&#26159;&#22826;&#31185;&#24187;&#20102;&#12290;


&#12288;&#12288;huzhigeng&#65306; &#40723;&#21253;&#24403;&#28982;&#19981;&#21487;&#35843;&#65292;&#20294;&#26159;&#36827;&#27668;&#36947;&#21487;&#35843;&#65292;&#36825;&#26679;&#26368;&#22823;&#36895;&#24230;&#23601;&#19978;&#21435;&#20102;&#65292;&#19968;&#20030;&#20004;&#24471;&#12290;&#12305;


&#12288;&#12288;&#20992;&#38155;2009&#65306;&#36319;&#20154;&#35831;&#25945;&#19979;HUZIGENG&#21704;&#65306;&#20320;&#23545;&#20845;&#20195;&#65288;&#32654;&#26631;&#20116;&#20195;&#65289;&#26159;&#20160;&#20040;&#27010;&#24565;&#65311;


&#12288;&#12288;huzhigeng&#65306;&#12304;&#32654;&#22269;&#20154;&#20063;&#22312;&#35770;&#35777;&#65292;&#21040;&#26102;&#20505;&#23601;&#30693;&#36947;&#65292;&#25105;&#20204;&#20063;&#22312;&#35770;&#35777;&#65292;&#19981;&#36807;&#20843;&#20061;&#19981;&#31163;&#21313;&#65292;&#37117; &#20250;&#24046;&#19981;&#22810;&#30340;&#65292; &#20845;&#20195;&#20998;&#26377;&#20154;&#21644;&#26080;&#20154;&#20004;&#31181;&#12290;&#12305;


&#12288;&#12288;freedr &#65306;huzhigeng&#22823;&#22823;&#65292;&#20026;&#20160;&#20040;&#31354;&#20891;&#20250;&#26377;&#20004;&#20010;&#22235;&#20195;&#65292;&#38590;&#36947;&#19968;&#19979;&#25630;&#23450;&#39640;&#20302;&#25645;&#37197;&#65292;&#36824;&#26159;&#30495;&#22914;&#31163;&#23376;&#40060;&#25152; &#35828;611&#30340;&#21487; &#33021;&#21482;&#26159;&#39564;&#35777;&#26426;&#65292;&#25110;&#32773;&#19981;&#20250;&#22823;&#25209;&#37327;&#35013;&#37197;&#30340;&#26426;&#22411;&#12290;

&#12288;&#12288;huzhigeng&#65306;&#12304;&#21621;&#21621;&#65292;611&#39564;&#35777;&#26426;&#65311;&#25104;&#37117;&#37325;&#22235;&#21644;F22&#19968;&#26679;&#65292;&#19981;&#20250;&#29983;&#20135;&#22826;&#22810;&#65292;&#26368;&#22810;&#19977; &#30334;&#26469;&#26550;&#12290;&#22240;&#20026; &#36825;&#26159;&#37325;&#22411;&#26426;&#65292;&#37325;&#22312;&#31934;&#19981;&#22312;&#22810;&#12290;&#19981;&#20687;&#19996;&#21271;&#30340;&#65292;&#26159;&#37327;&#22810;&#36136;&#31245;&#36807;&#21435;&#21435;&#12290;&#25105;&#20174;&#26469;&#27809;&#26377;&#21548;&#35828;&#37325;&#22411;&#26426;&#20250;&#27604;&#20013;&#22411;&#26426;&#35013; &#22791;&#24471;&#22810;&#12290;F2 2&#35013;&#22791;&#25968;&#37327;&#26377;F35&#22810;&#65311;&#21621;&#21621;&#12290;&#12305;


&#12288;&#12288;&#20992;&#38155;2009 &#65306; &#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#36824;&#26377;&#24456;&#22810;&#19981;&#30830;&#23450;&#22240;&#32032;&#65292;&#35805;&#24590;&#20040;&#33021;&#35828;&#30340;&#22826;&#28385;&#20102;&#65311;


&#12288;&#12288;huzhigeng&#65306;&#12304;&#39318;&#39134;&#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#32943;&#23450;&#19981;&#20250;&#29992;WS15&#12290;&#27809;&#26377;&#19968;&#20010;&#22269;&#23478;&#39318;&#39134;&#20250;&#29992;&#26032;&#30340;&#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#12290; &#32654;&#22269;&#20332;&#30340;YF 22&#20063;&#19981;&#26159;&#12290;&#27611;&#22269;&#20063;&#19981;&#26159;&#12290;&#21516;&#29702;&#25105;&#20204;&#20063;&#19981;&#20250;&#29992;&#12290;&#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#20063;&#19981;&#20250;&#24930;&#12290;&#12305;


&#12288;&#12288;jcyjsk &#65306; &#35874;&#32769;&#22823;&#32784;&#24515;&#35762;&#35299;&#12290;&#20320;&#35828;&#26377;&#27611;&#23376;&#22312;611&#21442;&#19982;&#19997;&#24102;&#65292;&#38590;&#36947;&#19981;&#24597;&#27844;&#23494;&#21834;&#65311;&#20420;&#32599;&#26031;&#36825;&#20010;&#30333;&#30524;&#29436;&#65292;&#21681;&#19981;&#24471;&#19981;&#38450; &#21834;&#12290;


&#12288;&#12288;huzhigeng&#65306;&#12304;&#24456;&#26089;&#21069;611&#23601;&#26377;&#27611;&#22269;&#20154;&#12290;&#20061;&#21313;&#24180;&#20195;&#23601;&#35831;&#20102;&#19968;&#20123;&#12290;611&#30340;&#27611;&#22269;&#19987;&#23478;&#20027; &#35201;&#26159;&#26426;&#20307;&#32467;&#26500; &#26041;&#38754;&#30340;&#19987;&#23478;&#12290;&#20182;&#20204;&#26159;&#25343;&#25105;&#20204;&#30340;&#24037;&#36164;&#30340;&#12290;&#21621;&#21621;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12305;


&#12288;&#12288;gotowork &#65306;huzhigeng&#32769;&#22823; &#35831;&#25945;&#19968;&#19979; 611&#23545;&#20110;&#37325;&#22235;&#30340;&#26631;&#20934;&#65288;&#22914;&#38544;&#36523;&#12289;&#36229;&#24033;&#12289;&#36229;&#26426;&#21160;&#12289;&#36229;&#35270;&#36317;&#65289;&#21644;&#32654;&#22269;&#19968;&#26679;&#21527;&#65311;&#36824;&#26159;&#24102;&#26377;&#20013;&#22269;&#29305;&#33394;&#65311;


&#12288;&#12288;huzhigeng&#65306;&#12304;&#22235;&#20195;&#30340;&#26631;&#20934;&#23601;&#26159;&#38544;&#36523;&#12289;&#36229;&#26426;&#21160;&#12289;&#36229;&#24033;&#12289;&#36229;&#35270;&#36317;&#12290;&#20320;&#24819;&#24819;&#65292;&#36825;&#26159;&#26631;&#20934;&#12290;&#25152; &#20197;&#25105;&#20204;&#30340;&#22235;&#20195; &#20250;&#23569;&#21527;&#65311;&#21482;&#26159;&#25105;&#20204;&#26356;&#20391;&#37325;&#20110;&#36229;&#26426;&#21160;&#12289;&#36229;&#24033;&#65288;&#25152;&#20197;&#25105;&#20204;&#30340;&#22235;&#20195;&#37117;&#26159;&#27604;&#36739;&#32454;&#38271;&#30340;&#65289;&#12290;611&#22235;&#20195;&#20854;&#23454;&#26159;&#21462; &#32654;&#22269;&#21644;&#27611;&#22269;&#30340; &#31934;&#21326;&#65292;&#26377;&#29420;&#29305;&#20013;&#22269;&#29305;&#33394;&#30340;&#22235;&#20195;&#26426;&#65292;&#26377;&#40493;&#32764;&#65292;&#26377;&#23574;&#25329;&#22823;&#36793;&#26465;&#65292;DSI&#21487;&#35843;&#36827;&#27668;&#36947;&#65292;&#36825;&#20123;&#38590;&#36947;&#19981;&#26377;&#29305;&#33394;&#65311; &#12305; 


here is my translation. I must give thanks to sinodefence members latenlazy, maxx, and xywdx for helping me with the technical jargons.

I am going to mark parts that I don't understand with an asterisk

First part:

A lot of huzhigeng predictions came true. We can't see *"double four" this year, it looks like he isn't bragging.

huzhigeng: Chengdu's (referring to CAC) "airplane" (referring to J-XX) is better than the F-22 manueverability wise and this is the result of canards, lift-body configuration, and *adjustable DSI. The inlets look very strange and the whole plane has this Sci-Fi look to it. Its appearance is even more "Sci-Fi" than that of the F-22.

huzhigeng: The Shengyang (SAC) "triplane" (referring to the tri-plane canard) that failed at the competition was too big, too heavy, too long, and too skinny. Its flight controls were too complicated and its stealth capabilities were inferior to that of Chengdu's (the double-delta design adversely affected stealth capabilities). Manueverability wise both planes had their own advantages. The Chengdu prototype had superb instanteneous and sustained turnrates and its specific excess power is even better. This is why the plane had a *&#22823;&#36793;&#26465; to assist the canards. When choosing between the Garrett and DSI inlets Chengdu's adjustable DSI inlets are far superior to the unadjustable Garrett inlet (Engineers who formerly worked at 601 currently work at 611).

huzhigeng &#65306;The "bump" in a DSI is fixed and couldn't be moved. However the intake itself (I believe he is referring to the opening) could be adjusted. This is why the plane looks so strange from the front.

huzhigeng &#65306;Gaoshan's (plane) uses a belly intake. Fourth generation (Fifth generation) fighters will never use belly intakes! Gaoshan's picture is very similar to the "Big 10" (Super 10) pictures that we used to see.


huzhigeng &#65306;China could've come up with a conventional configuration similar to that of the F-22 back in the 90s! The F-22, however, is a superb plane not because of its configuration(which was state of the art back in the 80s and 90s) but *configuration+flight control (Fly by wire?), a powerful, thrustvectored engine, and state of the art avionics. Let's assume that we make a plane with a conventional configuration not unlike that of the F-22. Our engines are far worse than that of the U.S. (the WS-15 has similar capabilities to the F-119 but the F-119 is 90s U.S. technology). Our planes won't stand a chance! Chinese standards for her Fourth Generation (Fifth gen) fighters are very high so Chengdu is going to employ a "perverse" (very complicated) configuration.


huzhigeng &#65306;The 611 research division has been familiar with the Garret inlet since the 1990s. Don't think that the Garret inlet is invincible! The deign has its defects.

huzhigeng &#65306;We should be able to see the prototype by the end of next year. The drawings were done since July and work on the prototype already began. Many experts from 601 are staying at 611. Many "Hairy" (Chinese phrase for Russian) scientists are also working at 611. A lot of people attended the last meeting. 

huzhigeng: The large Chinese passenger plane is a national effort. The plan and flight control were developed by 611 while the structure was a cooperative effort between 601 and 611 (This is because 601 is more experienced dealing with twin-engined fighters (*he also mentioned something about "heavy four", as in heavy fourth generation (fifth gen) jet and I don't know how to translate it). The plane's structure was primarily designed by 601 since Dongbei (Manchurian province of China where Shengyang is located) has the upperhand when it comes to structural design, composite materials, and titanium alloys. Last time 601 was really busy posting pictures (more stuff on the "heavy four". I don't think it is very important).

&#26539;&#20848;: Is Dongbei's fourth generation (fifth gen) plane carrier-capable? How many fourth generation (fith gen) planes does China need? Are we going to get light-medium, heavy, and carrier capable fifth generation fighters?

huzhigeng: The picture recently released by Dongbei is that of a Airforce Fighter. The navy won't get their fighters this fast.

&#21035;&#31163;&#38057; &#65306;huzhigeng, you said that the head, the front of the plane, and the models of the two planes (SAC and CAC fighters) have major differences. Are the planes' rears similar to one another?

huzhigeng: 611 usually likes to use their planes to test 4th gen (fifth generation) technology... J-10 and JF-17 are good examples. However the LERX on this plane are different from those of the sample plane. Fourth generation (fifth gen) fighters have large, sharp, protruding LERX not unlike those found on the JF-17 and Super Hornet. The engine nozzle has circular symmetry about the axis and could produce 360 degree *&#30690;&#25512;&#65292;&#19981;&#26159;&#20108;&#20803;&#30340;&#12290;

&#38738;&#20043;&#20845;: The plane under construction should be the 01 prototype, right? According to J-xx fanatic &#30127;&#29399;* the scaled model was made years ago!

huzhigeng: Right. The scaled-model has been made years ago but who dares to go in 132 and snap a picture? Can anyone get in? They won't just park the model on the lawn and let your snap pictures! They really are producing the 01 prototype. It looks very strange and "Sci-Fi", especially from the front.

klonoa1121&#65306;Let me go off topic for a sec. huzhigeng, do you know anything about J10-21?

huzhigeng: All I know is that J-10B is not the last J-10 variant.

&#21035;&#31163;&#38057;: huzhigeng, who is the chief designer of the fourth gen (fifth gen) fighter? Is it &#23435;&#25991;&#39586; (designer of J-10), &#26472;&#20255;, or the new comer - &#23395;&#26195;&#20809;?

huzhigeng: &#20255;&#21733; (Chinese phrase for Viagra . No, its &#26472;&#20255. However &#23435;&#25991;&#39586; is an important contributer. He laid the foundation for the whole project. Finally the J-xx won't be possible without the hard work and dedication of the entire 11-th regiment.

cyjsk&#65306;Hey boss (huzhigeng), what did you mean by adjustable DSI? Could the little "bumps" really move? If that's true then the J-xx is "Sci-Fi" indeed!

huzhigeng: Of course you can't adjust the bumps! However the intakes are adjustable. This way you can raise the maximum velocity. Killing two birds with one stone!

&#20992;&#38155;2009: huzhigeng, what is your opinion on 6th generation fighters?

huzhigeng: Americans are talking about it and we'll know when they are ready. We are talking about 6th gen fighters as well and our predictions are probably the same as their's. There should be two types of 6th gen. fighters - manned and unmanned.

freedr: Hey huzhigeng why does the air force need two Fourth generation (fifth gen) fighters? Is it because the air force needs high-lo combinations or is it because the 611 model is just an experimental plane or a plane not intended for mass production?

huzhigeng: What? A 611 experimental plane? Chengdu's heavy fourth gen. (fifth gen) fighter is similar to the F-22 and not many will be produced. I predict that only 300 will be produced. This is because Chengdu's plane is a heavy fighter and a heavy fighter emphasizes quality over quantity. The reverse is true for Dongbei's planes. I've never heard of countries that produce more heavy fighters than medium-light fighters. Are there more F-22s than F-35s? 

&#20992;&#38155;2009: Don't talk big when there are still problems with indigenious engines!

huzhigeng: The prototype won't use the WS-15. No one ever test new engines on their new fighters! The YF-22 didn't use new engines and neither did Russia's fighter (PAK-FA). We probably won't use new engines either. Our engines won't be slow (so don't worry)!

jcyjsk: Thank you huzhigeng! You said that some Russians are working on the Fourth Gen. (Fifth gen) fighter. Aren't you worried that they might leak information (look whose harking ).

huzhigeng: There have been Russians working at 611 since the 90s! The Russian engineers at 611 are primarily airframe/structural experts. We are paying them well right now .

gotowork: hey huzhigeng! Do we classify Fourth gen (Fifth gen) fighters the same way as the Americans (the 4S) or are we developing stealth fighters with "Chinese characteristics"?

huzhigeng: The characteristics of fourth generation (fifth gen) fighters are stealth, supermanueverability, supercruise, and AESA radars. Think about it! Those are the standards! Do you seriously think that our planes will be inferior? Our planes, however, emphasize supermanueverability and supercruise (that's why our 4th gen (5th gen) fighters are long and skinny). The 611 fighter will incorporate the advantages of American and Russian 5th generation fighters, use canards, large, sharp LERX, and adjustable DSI. Don't you think this plane is unique? 

*&#22823;&#36793;&#26465; refers to LERX

*Large Fighter is a national project, they joined produced Heavy 4 because 601 has more experience with twin engine frames. 

*&#30690;&#25512;&#65292;&#19981;&#26159;&#20108;&#20803;&#30340;, Thrust vectoring, not 2D.

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## SQ8

Are there any supposed pictures of the fighters this article is referring to?


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## SBD-3

santro said:


> Are there any supposed pictures of the fighters this article is referring to?


aimarraul's avatar seems like one


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## xuwei

Good news,pupu said: PAF will have the Improvement Model J10.


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## siegecrossbow

xuwei said:


> Good news,pupu said: PAF will have the Improvement Model J10.



Do you have the Chinese source? I'll be happy to do another translation for our Pakistani bros.

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## SBD-3

xuwei said:


> Good news,pupu said: PAF will have the Improvement Model J10.



We already have some rumors here that J-10B will only be used by PAF and PLAAF. Export version, if any will be baseline J-10A


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## xuwei

siegecrossbow said:


> Do you have the Chinese source? I'll be happy to do another translation for our Pakistani bros.



http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-985451-2-1.html

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## SBD-3

xuwei said:


> Èý¹ø×°±¸T-50ºó°ÍÌúµÄ°²È«ÔõÃ´°ì£¿[Page:2] - ¿Õ¾ü°æ - ¡º ³¬¼¶´ó±¾ÓªÂÛÌ³ ¡» ³¬È»ÎïÍâ ÓÐÈÝÄË´ó - Powered by CJDBY.NET



Please translate Pupu's post 72 that seems interesting but not clearly translated though 


> Currently known, is put into the flight itself with Pakistan, the two programs. One is now a test flight of the F -10 improved model based on the dress up are being developed in the domestic push of a single large multi-purpose version of the advanced. This version is very interesting, I have seen in the owner PLA where a very detailed description 611 means to light in accordance with the FC-1's example, spent nearly three times the research funding (all aircraft avionics system). Another is the improvement of twin models, this model can not say much, because we know too little


&#19968;&#20010;&#26159;&#22312;&#30446;&#21069;&#24050;&#32463;&#35797;&#39134;&#30340;&#27516;-10&#26576;&#25913;&#36827;&#22411;&#21495;&#30340;&#22522;&#30784;&#19978;&#65292;&#25442;&#35013;&#30446;&#21069;&#27491;&#22312;&#30740;&#21046;&#20013;&#30340;&#22269;&#20135;&#26576;&#22823;&#25512;&#30340;&#21333;&#21457;&#20808;&#36827;&#22810;&#29992;&#36884;&#29256;&#26412;&#12290;&#36825;&#20010;&#29256;&#26412;&#24456;&#26377;&#24847;&#24605;&#65292;&#25105;&#26366;&#32463;&#22312;&#26001;&#31481;PLA&#37027;&#37324;&#30475;&#21040;&#36807;&#38750;&#24120;&#35814;&#23613;&#30340;&#20171;&#32461; &#12290; . 611&#30340;&#24847;&#24605;&#65292;&#26159;&#35201;&#23567;&#24052;&#25353;&#29031;FC-1&#30340;&#20363;&#23376;&#65292;&#25237;&#20837;&#36817;&#19977;&#20493;&#30340;&#30740;&#21046;&#32463;&#36153;&#65288;&#20840;&#26426;&#33322;&#30005;&#31995;&#32479;&#65289;&#12290; &#36824;&#26377;&#19968;&#20010;&#65292;&#26159;&#21452;&#21457;&#25913;&#36827;&#22411;&#21495;&#65292;&#36825;&#20010;&#22411;&#21495;&#19981;&#33021;&#22810;&#35828;&#65292;&#22240;&#20026;&#30693;&#36947;&#30340;&#22826;&#23569;

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## Pk_Thunder

hasnain0099 said:


> Please translate Pupu's post 72 that seems interesting but not clearly translated though
> 
> *&#19968;&#20010;&#26159;&#22312;&#30446;&#21069;&#24050;&#32463;&#35797;&#39134;&#30340;&#27516;-10&#26576;&#25913;&#36827;&#22411;&#21495;&#30340;&#22522;&#30784;&#19978;&#65292;&#25442;&#35013;&#30446;&#21069;&#27491;&#22312;&#30740;&#21046;&#20013;&#30340;&#22269;&#20135;&#26576;&#22823;&#25512;&#30340;&#21333;&#21457;&#20808;&#36827;&#22810;&#29992;&#36884;&#29256;&#26412;&#12290;&#36825;&#20010;&#29256;&#26412;&#24456;&#26377;&#24847;&#24605;&#65292;&#25105;&#26366;&#32463;&#22312;&#26001;&#31481;PLA&#37027;&#37324;&#30475;&#21040;&#36807;&#38750;&#24120;&#35814;&#23613;&#30340;&#20171;&#32461; &#12290; . 611&#30340;&#24847;&#24605;&#65292;&#26159;&#35201;&#23567;&#24052;&#25353;&#29031;FC-1&#30340;&#20363;&#23376;&#65292;&#25237;&#20837;&#36817;&#19977;&#20493;&#30340;&#30740;&#21046;&#32463;&#36153;&#65288;&#20840;&#26426;&#33322;&#30005;&#31995;&#32479;&#65289;&#12290; &#36824;&#26377;&#19968;&#20010;&#65292;&#26159;&#21452;&#21457;&#25913;&#36827;&#22411;&#21495;&#65292;&#36825;&#20010;&#22411;&#21495;&#19981;&#33021;&#22810;&#35828;&#65292;&#22240;&#20026;&#30693;&#36947;&#30340;&#22826;&#23569;*



Its Translation is as under


*



One is currently in a test flight of the F -10 basis of improved models, dress up currently being developed in the domestic push of a single large multi-purpose advanced version. This version is very interesting, I have seen in the owner PLA where a very detailed description. . 611 The meaning is to light in accordance with the FC-1's example, nearly three times the development of investment funds (all aircraft avionics system). Another is the improvement of twin models, this model can not say much, because we know too little

Click to expand...

*

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## Brotherhood

One is currently in a test flight of the F -10 basis of improved models, dress up currently being developed in the domestic push of a single large multi-purpose advanced version. This version is very interesting, I have seen in the owner PLA where a very detailed description. . 611 The meaning is to light in accordance with the FC-1's example, nearly three times the development of investment funds (all aircraft avionics system). Another is the improvement of *twin models,* this model can not say much, because we know too little

From my limited Chinese language skill, i think it meant an improved "Twin engine" version of J-10

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## SBD-3

Brotherhood said:


> One is currently in a test flight of the F -10 basis of improved models, dress up currently being developed in the domestic push of a single large multi-purpose advanced version. This version is very interesting, I have seen in the owner PLA where a very detailed description. . 611 The meaning is to light in accordance with the FC-1's example, nearly three times the development of investment funds (all aircraft avionics system). Another is the improvement of *twin models,* this model can not say much, because we know too little
> 
> From my limited Chinese language skill, i think it meant an improved "Twin engine" version of J-10



yes Twin engine J-10 is very much on the cards, but i suspect PLANAF to be the primary customer which has outlined the requirement of twin engine stealthy and Supercruising aircraft for its Carrier(s). I suspect J-15 to be more of a stop gap in regard.


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## chengdusudise

pupu seems hints that the PAF J-10 will based on J-10B and use a simplified version of ws-15.

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## siegecrossbow

Sorry fellahs I've been delayed!



> &#19968;&#20010;&#26159;&#22312;&#30446;&#21069;&#24050;&#32463;&#35797;&#39134;&#30340;&#27516;-10&#26576;&#25913;&#36827;&#22411;&#21495;&#30340;&#22522;&#30784;&#19978;&#65292;&#25442;&#35013;&#30446;&#21069;&#27491;&#22312;&#30740;&#21046;&#20013;&#30340;&#22269;&#20135;&#26576;&#22823;&#25512;&#30340;&#21333;&#21457;&#20808;&#36827;&#22810;&#29992;&#36884;&#29256;&#26412;&#12290;&#36825;&#20010;&#29256;&#26412;&#24456;&#26377;&#24847;&#24605;&#65292;&#25105;&#26366;&#32463;&#22312;&#26001;&#31481;PLA&#37027;&#37324;&#30475;&#21040;&#36807;&#38750;&#24120;&#35814;&#23613;&#30340;&#20171;&#32461; &#12290; . 611&#30340;&#24847;&#24605;&#65292;&#26159;&#35201;&#23567;&#24052;&#25353;&#29031;FC-1&#30340;&#20363;&#23376;&#65292;&#25237;&#20837;&#36817;&#19977;&#20493;&#30340;&#30740;&#21046;&#32463;&#36153;&#65288;&#20840;&#26426;&#33322;&#30005;&#31995;&#32479;&#65289;&#12290;&#36824;&#26377;&#19968;&#20010;&#65292;&#26159;&#21452;&#21457;&#25913;&#36827;&#22411;&#21495;&#65292;&#36825;&#20010;&#22411;&#21495;&#19981;&#33021;&#22810;&#35828;&#65292;&#22240;&#20026;&#30693;&#36947;&#30340;&#22826;&#23569;



One of the (variants) is based on a improved J-10 variant that has made successful testflights. This will be used to replace a certain Chinese made advanced single engined, multirole fighter. This variant is very interesting. I've seen detailed informations regarding this variant posted by the OP PLA. 611 wants to follow Pakistan's FC-1 example and spend three times the funds (*improved avionics?). I can't say much about the twin-engined variant because I don't know too much about it.

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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> Sorry fellahs I've been delayed!
> 
> 
> 
> One of the (variants) is based on a improved J-10 variant that has made successful testflights. This will be used to replace a certain Chinese made advanced single engined, multirole fighter. This variant is very interesting. I've seen detailed informations regarding this variant posted by the OP PLA. 611 wants to follow Pakistan's FC-1 example and spend three times the funds (*improved avionics?). I can't say much about the twin-engined variant because I don't know too much about it.


finally someone good translation other than google translator 
after induction of BZ model what will be done of baseline A and S models...will they be exported or MLUed to BZ standards???


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## siegecrossbow

hasnain0099 said:


> finally someone good translation other than google translator
> after induction of BZ model what will be done of baseline A and S models...will they be exported or MLUed to BZ standards???



I think the PLAAF will still operate the baseline J-10As for some time before upgrading or selling them considering that third gen. fighters like J-7s and J-8s still make up the bulk of the Chinese air force.

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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> I think the PLAAF will still operate the baseline J-10As for some time before upgrading or selling them considering that third gen. fighters like J-7s and J-8s still make up the bulk of the Chinese air force.


but with almost 300 J-10A/S already in PLAAF active service, Will PLAAF be willing to take this number to some 450,500+?.....coupled with J-11s and MKKs in service wouldn't it increase the maintainance burden significantly?....If this option is excercise PLAAF will go for hi-hi combination


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## siegecrossbow

hasnain0099 said:


> but with almost 300 J-10A/S already in PLAAF active service, Will PLAAF be willing to take this number to some 450,500+?.....coupled with J-11s and MKKs in service wouldn't it increase the maintainance burden significantly?....If this option is excercise PLAAF will go for hi-hi combination



First of all I don't think there are as many as 300 J-10As in PLAAF. A friend of mine did a calculation based on the J-10s he spotted on google earth and the number of divisions officially reviewed by CCTV News and he came up with 196 fighters. 

I don't think PLAAF will take the number of baseline J-10s as high as 450. J-10A, although a comparatively advanced fighter in the Chinese arsenal, is already a bit dated compared to some of the fighters operated by our neighbors. I do know for a fact that other variants of J-10, together with the J-10A, will make up the bulk of the Chinese air force and step in the shoes of the J-7s. They, in turn, will probably be eventually supplanted by SAC's reputed single-engined stealth fighter or perhaps stealth J-10s.

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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> First of all I don't think there are as many as 300 J-10As in PLAAF. A friend of mine did a calculation based on the J-10s he spotted on google earth and the number of divisions officially reviewed by CCTV News and he came up with 196 fighters.
> 
> I don't think PLAAF will take the number of baseline J-10s as high as 450. J-10A, although a comparatively advanced fighter in the Chinese arsenal, is already a bit dated compared to some of the fighters operated by our neighbors. I do know for a fact that other variants of J-10, together with the J-10A, will make up the bulk of the Chinese air force and step in the shoes of the J-7s. They, in turn, will probably be eventually supplanted by* SAC's reputed single-engined stealth fighter* or perhaps stealth J-10s.


I didnt see that coming.....I knew that there may be two stealth programs under progress but I suspected CAC to be the boss as it had a better track record than SAC


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## siegecrossbow

hasnain0099 said:


> I didnt see that coming.....I knew that there may be two stealth programs under progress but I suspected CAC to be the boss as it had a better track record than SAC



That appears to be the case. CAC got the deal, apparently, on the twin-engined heavy stealth fighter that will be China's analogue to the F-22 and PAK-FA while SAC only got the single engine jet. However SAC will give a great deal of assistance to the CAC project as well since the SAC has prior experience with twin engined jets (various flankers) and is better with composite materials.

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## bc040400065

chengdusudise said:


> pupu seems hints that the PAF J-10 will based on J-10B and use a simplified version of ws-15.



Please if you can provide more info or any link because is it possible to have ws15 engine on Fc20??? Any confirmation from any source


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## siegecrossbow

bc040400065 said:


> Please if you can provide more info or any link because is it possible to have ws15 engine on Fc20??? Any confirmation from any source



I personally think that he meant a enhanced WS-10 variant (even better than WS-10A which is also experiencing problems). The WS-15 is intended for the J-XX.


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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> I personally think that he meant a enhanced WS-10 variant (even better than WS-10A which is also experiencing problems). The WS-15 is intended for the J-XX.



exactly....more like WS-10G


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## gypgypgyp

siegecrossbow said:


> That appears to be the case. CAC got the deal, apparently, on the twin-engined heavy stealth fighter that will be China's analogue to the F-22 and PAK-FA while SAC only got the single engine jet. However SAC will give a great deal of assistance to the CAC project as well since the SAC has prior experience with twin engined jets (various flankers) and is better with composite materials.




It is very different from what I read from the furom. the rumour I heard is CAC is developing next generation twin engine interceptor with SAC's help, especially in structure. SAC is response for next generation twin engine multi-role aircraft which is focus on cost efficiency. SAC will use Flanker as base to develop a ultimate "Flanker" like F-15SE.


Regarding J-10 in PLAAF, I didn't see PLAAF treat J-10 production as first priority. Last year(2009), a picture from SAC show J-11B is in massive production phase. Dozens J-11B is parking in SAC and waiting for engine. While J-10 import another 100 engine from Russian. The only engine suitable for J-11B is Ws-10 in China. From this two new, I think it is clear show PLAAF treat J-11B as the first priority and allocate most production capacity of ws-10a to SAC. beside that PLAN's goal is J-15.(J-15 use ws-10a as well)


I believe upgrade verion J-10 is in development, but I think twin-engine J-10 is more like a joke, add another engine will cause a major structure change. PLAAF will better off with upgrade J-11.

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## siegecrossbow

gypgypgyp said:


> It is very different from what I read from the furom. the rumour I heard is CAC is developing next generation twin engine interceptor with SAC's help, especially in structure. SAC is response for next generation twin engine multi-role aircraft which is focus on cost efficiency. SAC will use Flanker as base to develop a ultimate "Flanker" like F-15SE.
> 
> 
> Regarding J-10 in PLAAF, I didn't see PLAAF treat J-10 production as first priority. Last year(2009), a picture from SAC show J-11B is in massive production phase. Dozens J-11B is parking in SAC and waiting for engine. While J-10 import another 100 engine from Russian. The only engine suitable for J-11B is Ws-10 in China. From this two new, I think it is clear show PLAAF treat J-11B as the first priority and allocate most production capacity of ws-10a to SAC. beside that PLAN's goal is J-15.(J-15 use ws-10a as well)
> 
> 
> I believe upgrade verion J-10 is in development, but I think twin-engine J-10 is more like a joke, add another engine will cause a major structure change. PLAAF will better off with upgrade J-11.



Each man to his rumour, I guess. We'll never know for sure until official news regarding the J-XX program gets leaked (probably three years after the first prototypes fly successfully).

I think that the J-10, being the Lo in China's high-lo combination, will be produced in significant numbers as well. It is definitely more expensive to maintain the twin-engined flankers especially in light of China's problems with domestic engines. I think the air force will go for more J-10s than J-11s just out of cost consideration.

J-15 will be China's first carrier plane. I, however, see them more as a gap-filler before China's fifth gen carrier borne planes come out. By the time China's carrier comes out the F-35 will become the premier carrier borne fighter for most Western countries.

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## xuwei

chengdusudise said:


> pupu seems hints that the PAF J-10 will based on J-10B and use a simplified version of ws-15.



WS - 15 need at least 5 years to developed


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## xuwei

pupu said:help me show the picture to Pakistan brother.This is my uncle in Pakistan, a model of the scene after delivery.

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## Tuahaa

I'm no military/politics buff, but how much do you think China will sell these for to Pakistan? Or will it just be the super epic privilege of getting one of these planes in the first place?


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## xuwei

Tuahaa said:


> I'm no military/politics buff, but how much do you think China will sell these for to Pakistan? Or will it just be the super epic privilege of getting one of these planes in the first place?



Firstly,Pakistan is the most friendly country to China and we have Common strategic interests,some country purchased large advanced aircraft these years,break South Asia military balance;
Secondly,China has a habit of military:The best one will be confidential until the better one successfully developed .J10 use to be the most confidential plane in China,it had no the official decryption until recently.It tells that:Chinese 5'th fighter will be developed.in rumor:the 5'th fighter will first flew early in the next year.

So it is understandable!

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## xuwei

gypgypgyp said:


> It is very different from what I read from the furom. the rumour I heard is CAC is developing next generation twin engine interceptor with SAC's help, especially in structure. SAC is response for next generation twin engine multi-role aircraft which is focus on cost efficiency. SAC will use Flanker as base to develop a ultimate "Flanker" like F-15SE.
> 
> 
> Regarding J-10 in PLAAF, I didn't see PLAAF treat J-10 production as first priority. Last year(2009), a picture from SAC show J-11B is in massive production phase. Dozens J-11B is parking in SAC and waiting for engine. While J-10 import another 100 engine from Russian. The only engine suitable for J-11B is Ws-10 in China. From this two new, I think it is clear show PLAAF treat J-11B as the first priority and allocate most production capacity of ws-10a to SAC. beside that PLAN's goal is J-15.(J-15 use ws-10a as well)
> 
> PLAAF will better off with upgrade J-11.



My friend, but i don't think so.
I surpose J10 is More priorier than J11B,have you heard that:J10A beat J11B in many Against drill,so J10 is the best air-advantage fighter in China now.611 also develop FC-1/JF-17 succesffully.That's why Country give the 5'th fighter development to 611 

---SAC will use Flanker as base to develop a ultimate "Flanker" like F-15SE.-------no The official news prove it,mybe it's SAC's plan.Now,The country has one 5'TH fight program.
until now,J11 have nothing change of Pneumatic structure to SU27SK,but J10B is mature.I belive there will be J10C,J10D.....J10Z.The advantage of J11 is two-engine,more Load capacity,and more voyage,that's J10 hard to reach.


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## siegecrossbow

Tuahaa said:


> I'm no military/politics buff, but how much do you think China will sell these for to Pakistan? Or will it just be the super epic privilege of getting one of these planes in the first place?



Pakistan is already a confirmed customer of the J-10.

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan&#039;s Premier NEWS Agency ) - PAF to start serial production of JF17 fighter aircraft soon


> Answering a question, he said the agreement between Pakistan and China for the delivery of High&#8209;Tech aircraft J&#8209;10 was intact and these aircraft after improving them further would be *delivered to PAF in 2014&#8209;15*. He said these aircraft are being modernized in accordance with the PAFs requirements and delivered under the title of FC&#8209;20.



The only real question is which variant of the J-10 Pakistan is getting but since the air chief said that the J-10 will be modernized in accordance to PAF requirements, I believe that it will be J-10B. Pakistan will also have access to Western radars/avionics so the PAF J-10 variant may be more advanced than that of the original.

Don't worry about it. If China is not selling the J-10 to Pakistan, she won't sell it to any other nation. Pakistan is China's only reliable all weather partner.

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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> Pakistan is already a confirmed customer of the J-10.
> 
> Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - PAF to start serial production of JF17 fighter aircraft soon
> 
> 
> The only real question is which variant of the J-10 Pakistan is getting but since the air chief said that the J-10 will be modernized in accordance to PAF requirements, I believe that it will be J-10B. Pakistan will also have access to Western radars/avionics so the PAF J-10 variant may be more advanced than that of the original.
> 
> Don't worry about it. If China is not selling the J-10 to Pakistan, she won't sell it to any other nation. Pakistan is China's only reliable all weather partner.



about a year ago, someone ( idont know his name now) put an interesting post in this regard.According to him, J-10B will be only used by PAF and PLAAF and J-10B model will not be exported to any third country. Once J-10B is in PLAAF, FC-20 development will start and when FC-20 development is complete, PLAAF J-10A fleet will take MLU upgrade to FC-20 Standards. The official flight date for FC-20 variant is somewhere between 2014-2015. The export model will be based on J-10A (if China decides to export this to other countries)

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## siegecrossbow

I found a few pictures of J-10, H-6, and KJ-2000 participating in Peace Mission 2010 on Tiexue that I want to share.

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## xuwei

who can help me translate these acticle to Pakistan friends,and it is helpful to know about J10:

sopc_dsp:
&#23601;&#36825;&#30446;&#21069;&#22269;&#20135;&#25112;&#26426;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#30340;TR&#32452;&#20214;&#30340;&#21407;&#22411;
J10B&#30340;&#35797;&#20135;&#23567;&#25209;&#37327;&#24555;&#20102;&#65292;J10B&#29992;&#30340;&#23601;&#26159;&#22312;&#27492;&#21407;&#22411;&#22522;&#30784;&#19978;&#25552;&#39640;&#25104;&#21697;&#29575;&#12289;&#38477;&#20302;&#25104;&#26412;&#30340;&#25209;&#20135;&#22312;&#21363;&#30340;TR&#32452;&#20214;&#65292;&#21482;&#35201;&#35746;&#21333;&#36275;&#22815;&#65292;&#35797;&#20135;&#26399;&#38388;&#21487;&#20445;&#35777;&#22823;&#20110;&#65288;10&#37096;AESA&#38647;&#36798;/&#24180;&#65289;&#30340;&#20135;&#37327;&#12290;
&#31561;J10B&#23436;&#20840;&#25209;&#20135;&#20102;&#65292;&#20272;&#35745;&#22269;&#20135;&#25112;&#26426;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#30340;TR&#32452;&#20214;&#30340;&#20135;&#37327;&#21487;&#20445;&#35777;&#36229;&#36807;&#65288;50&#37096;AESA&#38647;&#36798;/&#24180;&#65289;&#30340;&#20135;&#37327;&#12290;
J11B&#12289;J15&#20063;&#20250;&#29992;&#19978;&#26356;&#22823;&#30340;&#22269;&#20135;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#12290;

&#30446;&#21069;J10B&#25285;&#24403;AESA&#39046;&#20808;&#35797;&#29992;&#30340;&#37325;&#20219;&#65292;
&#37327;&#20135;&#30340;AESA&#20063;&#23558;&#39318;&#20808;&#28385;&#36275;J10B&#65292;
&#23558;&#26469;&#22312;J10B&#19981;&#26029;&#25193;&#20805;&#30340;&#26426;&#32676;&#20013;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#30340;TR&#32452;&#20214;&#21487;&#33719;&#24471;&#19981;&#26029;&#30340;&#25913;&#36827;&#21644;&#25552;&#21319;&#65292;
&#22312;&#27492;&#22522;&#30784;&#19978;&#30740;&#21046;5&#20195;&#37325;&#27516;&#30340;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#30340;&#25104;&#26412;&#21644;&#39118;&#38505;&#20250;&#22823;&#22823;&#38477;&#20302;&#65292;
&#20174;&#27516;10B&#30340;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#65292;&#20223;&#21046;&#25918;&#22823;&#30340;&#35013;&#22791;J11B&#12289;J15&#30340;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#65292;&#24517;&#23450;&#20250;&#25237;&#20135;&#30340;&#12290;


sopc_dsp:&#21457;&#34920;&#20110; 2010-5-8 18:38
J10A&#25191;&#34892;&#31354;&#20248;&#20219;&#21153;&#65292;&#25346;&#36733;&#33021;&#21147;&#19981;&#24369;&#65292;6&#26522;&#23548;&#24377;&#65288;2&#36817;4&#20013;&#65289;&#26368;&#22823;&#36895;&#24230;&#19981;&#23567;&#20110;1.8M,4&#26522;&#23548;&#24377;&#65288;2&#36817;2&#20013;&#65289;&#26368;&#22823;&#36895;&#24230;&#19981;&#23567;&#20110;2M&#65292;&#20855;&#26377;&#20248;&#31168;&#30340;&#39640;&#31354;&#36229;&#38899;&#36895;&#26426;&#21160;&#33021;&#21147;&#65288;&#36229;&#38899;&#36895;&#22823;&#36807;&#36733;&#30424;&#26059;&#33021;&#21147;&#19981;&#20302;&#20110;6g&#65292;&#20855;&#26377;&#36817;9g&#30340;&#36328;&#38899;&#36895;&#22823;&#36807;&#36733;&#25481;&#22836;&#33021;&#21147;&#65292;200&#24230;/&#31186;&#24555;&#36895;&#27178;&#28378;&#29575;&#65289;&#65292;&#20248;&#31168;&#30340;&#20013;&#20302;&#31354;&#20122;&#38899;&#36895;&#26426;&#25935;&#24615;&#65288;&#20013;&#20302;&#31354;&#20122;&#38899;&#36895;&#22823;&#20110;31&#24230;&#30340;&#24613;&#30424;&#26059;&#65292;&#26497;&#39640;&#30340;&#27178;&#28378;&#21152;&#36895;&#24230;&#21644;&#32422;300&#24230;/&#31186;&#24555;&#36895;&#27178;&#28378;&#65288;&#26356;&#22823;&#30340;&#27178;&#28378;&#29575;&#34987;&#30005;&#20256;&#38480;&#21046;&#20102;&#65289;&#65289;&#12290;
J10A&#25191;&#34892;&#25252;&#33322;&#20219;&#21153;&#65292;4&#26522;&#23548;&#24377;&#65288;2&#36817;2&#20013;&#65289;&#65292;3&#21103;&#27833;&#31665;&#65292;&#21487;&#28385;&#36275;JH7A&#20840;&#31243;&#25252;&#33322;&#35201;&#27714;&#65292;
J10A&#21482;&#22312;&#25191;&#34892;&#23545;&#22320;&#23545;&#28023;&#25171;&#20987;&#20219;&#21153;&#26102;&#65292;&#25171;&#20987;&#33021;&#21147;&#19981;&#21450;Su30kk&#12289;JH7A&#30340;&#19968;&#21322;&#12290;

&#23601;&#21046;&#31354;&#32780;&#35328;&#65292;&#31354;&#20891;&#23545;&#20854;&#24615;&#33021;&#38750;&#24120;&#28385;&#24847;&#12290;&#23545;&#22320;&#25171;&#20987;&#19981;&#26159;&#20854;&#37325;&#28857;&#12289;&#22823;&#23478;&#20063;&#30475;&#36807;&#65292;J10A&#25171;&#28779;&#31661;&#24377;&#20063;&#26159;&#24456;&#20934;&#30340;&#12290;

J10B&#23545;&#22320;&#33021;&#21147;&#34429;&#24471;&#21040;&#21152;&#24378;&#65292;&#20294;&#20854;&#31354;&#25112;&#33021;&#21147;&#21017;&#25104;&#20493;&#25552;&#39640;&#65292;J10B&#30340;&#20027;&#35201;&#20316;&#25112;&#21151;&#33021;&#36824;&#26159;&#31354;&#20248;&#65292;
J10B&#30340;&#24635;&#20307;&#27668;&#21160;&#22806;&#24418;&#23545;&#36328;&#38899;&#36895;&#38754;&#31215;&#29575;&#21644;&#36229;&#38899;&#36895;&#38754;&#31215;&#29575;&#36827;&#34892;&#20102;&#28145;&#24230;&#20248;&#21270;&#65292;&#37325;&#26032;&#35774;&#35745;&#20102;&#21069;&#26426;&#36523;&#12289;&#22402;&#30452;&#23614;&#32764;&#12289;&#33145;&#40141;&#65292;&#26356;&#25442;&#20102;&#26032;&#30340;&#20027;&#32764;&#65288;&#32764;&#22411;&#22522;&#26412;&#19981;&#21464;&#65292;&#37319;&#29992;&#20102;&#26356;&#22810;&#30340;&#22797;&#21512;&#26448;&#26009;&#65289;&#65292;&#26032;&#19968;&#20195;&#30340;3&#32500;&#36229;&#38899;&#36895;BUMP&#36827;&#27668;&#36947;&#22312;2&#20493;&#38899;&#36895;&#26102;&#21487;&#25552;&#20379;&#30340;&#24635;&#21387;&#24674;&#22797;&#22909;&#20110;3&#27874;&#31995;&#36827;&#27668;&#36947;&#65292;&#20248;&#21270;&#21518;&#30340;&#27668;&#21160;&#22806;&#24418;&#22312;&#20122;&#12289;&#36328;&#12289;&#36229;&#38899;&#36895;&#30340;&#21253;&#32447;&#20869;&#30340;&#20943;&#38459;&#25928;&#26524;&#26126;&#26174;&#65292;&#21152;&#36895;&#24615;&#33021;&#24471;&#21040;&#25913;&#21892;&#12290;&#20174;&#35797;&#39134;&#24773;&#20917;&#26469;&#30475;&#65292;&#39640;&#31354;&#24102;&#24377;&#24773;&#20917;&#19979;&#65288;&#27169;&#25311;&#24377;&#65289;&#30340;&#26497;&#36895;&#21644;&#26368;&#22823;&#38745;&#21319;&#38480;&#22343;&#26377;&#25152;&#25552;&#39640;&#12290;
J10B&#30340;&#32467;&#26500;&#37325;&#37327;&#20943;&#37325;&#26126;&#26174;&#65292;&#25346;&#36733;&#33021;&#21147;&#26377;&#25152;&#22686;&#24378;&#12290;

J10B&#37319;&#29992;&#20102;&#26032;&#19968;&#20195;&#30340;&#33322;&#30005;&#31995;&#32479;&#65292;&#21253;&#25324;&#25913;&#36827;&#30340;&#39134;&#25511;&#31995;&#32479;&#65292;&#26368;&#26032;&#30340;&#37197;&#22871;&#26426;&#36733;&#30456;&#25511;&#38453;&#38647;&#36798;&#12289;&#65288;&#20027;&#21160;/&#34987;&#21160;&#65289;&#30005;&#25112;&#31995;&#32479;&#65292;&#26032;&#22686;&#20809;&#30005;&#38647;&#36798;&#12290;
J10B&#30340;&#31995;&#32479;&#26356;&#26032;&#27604;&#20363;&#19981;&#20302;&#20110;70%

sopc_dsp 2010-5-8 19:43 :
&#24453;TH&#30340;&#24615;&#33021;&#31283;&#23450;&#20102;&#65292;j10b&#23558;&#25104;&#20026;&#25105;&#31354;&#20891;&#30340;&#20027;&#21147;&#25112;&#26426;&#65288;&#28023;&#33322;&#19981;&#28165;&#26970;&#65289; 

sopc_dsp &#21457;&#34920;&#20110; 2010-5-10 16:35
&#21069;&#27573;&#26102;&#38388;&#65292;&#35299;&#25918;&#20891;&#25253;&#26576;&#25991;&#65292;&#19981;&#26159;2&#26550;J10&#23545;&#25112;4&#26550;J11&#65288;&#21319;&#32423;&#36807;&#30340;&#65289;&#65292; &#21319;&#31354;&#21518; J10&#20698;&#26426;&#22240;&#25925;&#38556;&#34987;&#36843;&#36864;&#20986;&#65292;J10&#38271;&#26426;&#21482;&#24471;&#30828;&#30528;&#22836;&#30382;&#21435;1&#26550;J10&#23545;4&#26550;J11&#65292;&#23545;&#25239;&#32467;&#26524;4&#26550;J11&#34987;&#21028;&#23450;&#20987;&#33853;&#65292;&#21333;&#26550;J10&#24847;&#22806;&#25438;&#20010;4:0&#25112;&#32489;&#65292;&#36830;J10&#38271;&#26426;&#37117;&#27809;&#24819;&#21040;&#12290;

&#27492;&#25991;&#65292;&#21069;&#27573;&#26102;&#38388;&#22312;&#32593;&#19978;&#24050;&#34987;&#28909;&#28818;&#36807;&#20102;&#12290;

&#23454;&#38469;&#19978;06&#24180;&#20197;&#21518;&#65292;2&#23545;4&#65292;4&#23545;4&#65292;8&#23545;8&#65292;J10&#23545;&#25112;&#30340;&#22522;&#26412;&#19978;&#26159;J11&#65292;&#32780;&#19988;&#26159;&#22823;&#24378;&#24230;&#26816;&#39564;&#24615;&#23545;&#25239;&#65292;&#20063;&#26377;&#21333;&#26550;J10&#34987;&#21028;&#23450;&#20987;&#33853;&#65292;J11&#34987;&#21028;&#23450;&#20840;&#28781;&#20063;&#19981;&#23569;&#12290;



&#25105;&#35760;&#24471;&#25105;&#19968;&#30452;&#26159;8&#21544;&#27966;&#30340;&#65292;&#25105;&#26366;&#32463;&#35828;&#36807;&#21482;&#26377;J10AS(&#21452;&#24231&#22312;&#31639;&#19978;2&#20010;&#20154;&#30340;&#24773;&#20917;&#19979;&#31354;&#37325;&#25509;&#36817;8.9&#21544;&#12290;
J10B&#22312;&#25193;&#22823;&#22797;&#21512;&#26448;&#26009;&#20351;&#29992;&#33539;&#22260;&#21518;&#34429;&#28982;&#22312;&#32467;&#26500;&#37325;&#37327;&#19978;&#20943;&#37325;&#26126;&#26174;&#65292;&#20294;&#30001;&#20110;AESE&#38647;&#36798;&#65292;&#20809;&#30005;&#38647;&#36798;&#65292;&#30005;&#25112;&#35774;&#22791;&#30340;&#22686;&#37325;&#25269;&#28040;&#20102;&#37096;&#20221;&#32467;&#26500;&#20943;&#37325;&#65292;J10B&#31354;&#37325;&#34429;&#27604;J10A&#26377;&#25152;&#20943;&#36731;&#65292;&#20294;J10B&#36824;&#26159;8&#21544;&#32423;&#30340;&#31354;&#37325;&#12290;




J10 &#31995;&#21015;

&#31354;&#20248;&#22411;&#65306;J10A

&#31354;&#20248;&#12289;&#23545;&#22320;&#25915;&#20987;&#22411; &#20860; &#21516;&#22411;&#25945;&#65306;J10S

(&#31354;&#20013;&#20248;&#21183 &#31354;&#20248;&#22411; &#20860; &#22810;&#29992;&#36884;&#65306;J10B

L15&#25104;&#29087;&#12289;&#37327;&#20135;&#21518;&#65292; J10S&#30340;&#20135;&#37327;&#20250;&#32553;&#20943;&#65292;&#36827;&#19968;&#27493;&#24773;&#20917;&#26410;&#30693;&#12290;

&#37325;5&#26381;&#24441;&#21069;&#65292;J10B&#23558;&#25104;&#20026;&#22269;&#22303;&#38450;&#31354;&#20027;&#21147;&#65292;&#31354;&#35013;&#23545;J10B&#30340;&#30740;&#21046;&#30447;&#24471;&#24456;&#32039;&#65292;&#31354;&#35013;&#26159;J10B&#30340;&#35746;&#36135;&#22823;&#25143;&#65292;&#19981;&#36807;&#28023;&#33322;&#24456;&#24819;&#25554;&#19968;&#33050;&#65292;&#20599;&#25688;&#23558;&#26469;&#30340;&#26524;&#23376;&#12290;

J10B&#37327;&#20135;&#21518;J10A&#23601;&#23558;&#36880;&#27493;&#20943;&#20135;&#30452;&#21040;&#20572;&#20135;&#12290;

&#30446;&#21069;(J10A+J10S)&#65306;(J11 &#31995;&#21015&#20135;&#37327;&#27604;&#20363;&#26159;2 &#65306;1

&#19981;&#25490;&#38500;&#23558;&#26469;&#20986;&#29616;(J10B)&#65306;(J11 &#31995;&#21015&#20135;&#37327;&#27604;&#20363; 3 &#65306;1 &#30340;&#21487;&#33021;

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## Pk_Thunder

xuwei said:


> who can help me translate these acticle to Pakistan friends,and it is helpful to know about J10:
> 
> sopc_dsp:
> &#23601;&#36825;&#30446;&#21069;&#22269;&#20135;&#25112;&#26426;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#30340;TR&#32452;&#20214;&#30340;&#21407;&#22411;
> J10B&#30340;&#35797;&#20135;&#23567;&#25209;&#37327;&#24555;&#20102;&#65292;J10B&#29992;&#30340;&#23601;&#26159;&#22312;&#27492;&#21407;&#22411;&#22522;&#30784;&#19978;&#25552;&#39640;&#25104;&#21697;&#29575;&#12289;&#38477;&#20302;&#25104;&#26412;&#30340;&#25209;&#20135;&#22312;&#21363;&#30340;TR&#32452;&#20214;&#65292;&#21482;&#35201;&#35746;&#21333;&#36275;&#22815;&#65292;&#35797;&#20135;&#26399;&#38388;&#21487;&#20445;&#35777;&#22823;&#20110;&#65288;10&#37096;AESA&#38647;&#36798;/&#24180;&#65289;&#30340;&#20135;&#37327;&#12290;
> &#31561;J10B&#23436;&#20840;&#25209;&#20135;&#20102;&#65292;&#20272;&#35745;&#22269;&#20135;&#25112;&#26426;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#30340;TR&#32452;&#20214;&#30340;&#20135;&#37327;&#21487;&#20445;&#35777;&#36229;&#36807;&#65288;50&#37096;AESA&#38647;&#36798;/&#24180;&#65289;&#30340;&#20135;&#37327;&#12290;
> J11B&#12289;J15&#20063;&#20250;&#29992;&#19978;&#26356;&#22823;&#30340;&#22269;&#20135;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#12290;
> 
> &#30446;&#21069;J10B&#25285;&#24403;AESA&#39046;&#20808;&#35797;&#29992;&#30340;&#37325;&#20219;&#65292;
> &#37327;&#20135;&#30340;AESA&#20063;&#23558;&#39318;&#20808;&#28385;&#36275;J10B&#65292;
> &#23558;&#26469;&#22312;J10B&#19981;&#26029;&#25193;&#20805;&#30340;&#26426;&#32676;&#20013;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#30340;TR&#32452;&#20214;&#21487;&#33719;&#24471;&#19981;&#26029;&#30340;&#25913;&#36827;&#21644;&#25552;&#21319;&#65292;
> &#22312;&#27492;&#22522;&#30784;&#19978;&#30740;&#21046;5&#20195;&#37325;&#27516;&#30340;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#30340;&#25104;&#26412;&#21644;&#39118;&#38505;&#20250;&#22823;&#22823;&#38477;&#20302;&#65292;
> &#20174;&#27516;10B&#30340;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#65292;&#20223;&#21046;&#25918;&#22823;&#30340;&#35013;&#22791;J11B&#12289;J15&#30340;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#65292;&#24517;&#23450;&#20250;&#25237;&#20135;&#30340;&#12290;
> 
> 
> sopc_dsp:&#21457;&#34920;&#20110; 2010-5-8 18:38
> J10A&#25191;&#34892;&#31354;&#20248;&#20219;&#21153;&#65292;&#25346;&#36733;&#33021;&#21147;&#19981;&#24369;&#65292;6&#26522;&#23548;&#24377;&#65288;2&#36817;4&#20013;&#65289;&#26368;&#22823;&#36895;&#24230;&#19981;&#23567;&#20110;1.8M,4&#26522;&#23548;&#24377;&#65288;2&#36817;2&#20013;&#65289;&#26368;&#22823;&#36895;&#24230;&#19981;&#23567;&#20110;2M&#65292;&#20855;&#26377;&#20248;&#31168;&#30340;&#39640;&#31354;&#36229;&#38899;&#36895;&#26426;&#21160;&#33021;&#21147;&#65288;&#36229;&#38899;&#36895;&#22823;&#36807;&#36733;&#30424;&#26059;&#33021;&#21147;&#19981;&#20302;&#20110;6g&#65292;&#20855;&#26377;&#36817;9g&#30340;&#36328;&#38899;&#36895;&#22823;&#36807;&#36733;&#25481;&#22836;&#33021;&#21147;&#65292;200&#24230;/&#31186;&#24555;&#36895;&#27178;&#28378;&#29575;&#65289;&#65292;&#20248;&#31168;&#30340;&#20013;&#20302;&#31354;&#20122;&#38899;&#36895;&#26426;&#25935;&#24615;&#65288;&#20013;&#20302;&#31354;&#20122;&#38899;&#36895;&#22823;&#20110;31&#24230;&#30340;&#24613;&#30424;&#26059;&#65292;&#26497;&#39640;&#30340;&#27178;&#28378;&#21152;&#36895;&#24230;&#21644;&#32422;300&#24230;/&#31186;&#24555;&#36895;&#27178;&#28378;&#65288;&#26356;&#22823;&#30340;&#27178;&#28378;&#29575;&#34987;&#30005;&#20256;&#38480;&#21046;&#20102;&#65289;&#65289;&#12290;
> J10A&#25191;&#34892;&#25252;&#33322;&#20219;&#21153;&#65292;4&#26522;&#23548;&#24377;&#65288;2&#36817;2&#20013;&#65289;&#65292;3&#21103;&#27833;&#31665;&#65292;&#21487;&#28385;&#36275;JH7A&#20840;&#31243;&#25252;&#33322;&#35201;&#27714;&#65292;
> J10A&#21482;&#22312;&#25191;&#34892;&#23545;&#22320;&#23545;&#28023;&#25171;&#20987;&#20219;&#21153;&#26102;&#65292;&#25171;&#20987;&#33021;&#21147;&#19981;&#21450;Su30kk&#12289;JH7A&#30340;&#19968;&#21322;&#12290;
> 
> &#23601;&#21046;&#31354;&#32780;&#35328;&#65292;&#31354;&#20891;&#23545;&#20854;&#24615;&#33021;&#38750;&#24120;&#28385;&#24847;&#12290;&#23545;&#22320;&#25171;&#20987;&#19981;&#26159;&#20854;&#37325;&#28857;&#12289;&#22823;&#23478;&#20063;&#30475;&#36807;&#65292;J10A&#25171;&#28779;&#31661;&#24377;&#20063;&#26159;&#24456;&#20934;&#30340;&#12290;
> 
> J10B&#23545;&#22320;&#33021;&#21147;&#34429;&#24471;&#21040;&#21152;&#24378;&#65292;&#20294;&#20854;&#31354;&#25112;&#33021;&#21147;&#21017;&#25104;&#20493;&#25552;&#39640;&#65292;J10B&#30340;&#20027;&#35201;&#20316;&#25112;&#21151;&#33021;&#36824;&#26159;&#31354;&#20248;&#65292;
> J10B&#30340;&#24635;&#20307;&#27668;&#21160;&#22806;&#24418;&#23545;&#36328;&#38899;&#36895;&#38754;&#31215;&#29575;&#21644;&#36229;&#38899;&#36895;&#38754;&#31215;&#29575;&#36827;&#34892;&#20102;&#28145;&#24230;&#20248;&#21270;&#65292;&#37325;&#26032;&#35774;&#35745;&#20102;&#21069;&#26426;&#36523;&#12289;&#22402;&#30452;&#23614;&#32764;&#12289;&#33145;&#40141;&#65292;&#26356;&#25442;&#20102;&#26032;&#30340;&#20027;&#32764;&#65288;&#32764;&#22411;&#22522;&#26412;&#19981;&#21464;&#65292;&#37319;&#29992;&#20102;&#26356;&#22810;&#30340;&#22797;&#21512;&#26448;&#26009;&#65289;&#65292;&#26032;&#19968;&#20195;&#30340;3&#32500;&#36229;&#38899;&#36895;BUMP&#36827;&#27668;&#36947;&#22312;2&#20493;&#38899;&#36895;&#26102;&#21487;&#25552;&#20379;&#30340;&#24635;&#21387;&#24674;&#22797;&#22909;&#20110;3&#27874;&#31995;&#36827;&#27668;&#36947;&#65292;&#20248;&#21270;&#21518;&#30340;&#27668;&#21160;&#22806;&#24418;&#22312;&#20122;&#12289;&#36328;&#12289;&#36229;&#38899;&#36895;&#30340;&#21253;&#32447;&#20869;&#30340;&#20943;&#38459;&#25928;&#26524;&#26126;&#26174;&#65292;&#21152;&#36895;&#24615;&#33021;&#24471;&#21040;&#25913;&#21892;&#12290;&#20174;&#35797;&#39134;&#24773;&#20917;&#26469;&#30475;&#65292;&#39640;&#31354;&#24102;&#24377;&#24773;&#20917;&#19979;&#65288;&#27169;&#25311;&#24377;&#65289;&#30340;&#26497;&#36895;&#21644;&#26368;&#22823;&#38745;&#21319;&#38480;&#22343;&#26377;&#25152;&#25552;&#39640;&#12290;
> J10B&#30340;&#32467;&#26500;&#37325;&#37327;&#20943;&#37325;&#26126;&#26174;&#65292;&#25346;&#36733;&#33021;&#21147;&#26377;&#25152;&#22686;&#24378;&#12290;
> 
> J10B&#37319;&#29992;&#20102;&#26032;&#19968;&#20195;&#30340;&#33322;&#30005;&#31995;&#32479;&#65292;&#21253;&#25324;&#25913;&#36827;&#30340;&#39134;&#25511;&#31995;&#32479;&#65292;&#26368;&#26032;&#30340;&#37197;&#22871;&#26426;&#36733;&#30456;&#25511;&#38453;&#38647;&#36798;&#12289;&#65288;&#20027;&#21160;/&#34987;&#21160;&#65289;&#30005;&#25112;&#31995;&#32479;&#65292;&#26032;&#22686;&#20809;&#30005;&#38647;&#36798;&#12290;
> J10B&#30340;&#31995;&#32479;&#26356;&#26032;&#27604;&#20363;&#19981;&#20302;&#20110;70%
> 
> sopc_dsp 2010-5-8 19:43 :
> &#24453;TH&#30340;&#24615;&#33021;&#31283;&#23450;&#20102;&#65292;j10b&#23558;&#25104;&#20026;&#25105;&#31354;&#20891;&#30340;&#20027;&#21147;&#25112;&#26426;&#65288;&#28023;&#33322;&#19981;&#28165;&#26970;&#65289;
> 
> sopc_dsp &#21457;&#34920;&#20110; 2010-5-10 16:35
> &#21069;&#27573;&#26102;&#38388;&#65292;&#35299;&#25918;&#20891;&#25253;&#26576;&#25991;&#65292;&#19981;&#26159;2&#26550;J10&#23545;&#25112;4&#26550;J11&#65288;&#21319;&#32423;&#36807;&#30340;&#65289;&#65292; &#21319;&#31354;&#21518; J10&#20698;&#26426;&#22240;&#25925;&#38556;&#34987;&#36843;&#36864;&#20986;&#65292;J10&#38271;&#26426;&#21482;&#24471;&#30828;&#30528;&#22836;&#30382;&#21435;1&#26550;J10&#23545;4&#26550;J11&#65292;&#23545;&#25239;&#32467;&#26524;4&#26550;J11&#34987;&#21028;&#23450;&#20987;&#33853;&#65292;&#21333;&#26550;J10&#24847;&#22806;&#25438;&#20010;4:0&#25112;&#32489;&#65292;&#36830;J10&#38271;&#26426;&#37117;&#27809;&#24819;&#21040;&#12290;
> 
> &#27492;&#25991;&#65292;&#21069;&#27573;&#26102;&#38388;&#22312;&#32593;&#19978;&#24050;&#34987;&#28909;&#28818;&#36807;&#20102;&#12290;
> 
> &#23454;&#38469;&#19978;06&#24180;&#20197;&#21518;&#65292;2&#23545;4&#65292;4&#23545;4&#65292;8&#23545;8&#65292;J10&#23545;&#25112;&#30340;&#22522;&#26412;&#19978;&#26159;J11&#65292;&#32780;&#19988;&#26159;&#22823;&#24378;&#24230;&#26816;&#39564;&#24615;&#23545;&#25239;&#65292;&#20063;&#26377;&#21333;&#26550;J10&#34987;&#21028;&#23450;&#20987;&#33853;&#65292;J11&#34987;&#21028;&#23450;&#20840;&#28781;&#20063;&#19981;&#23569;&#12290;
> 
> 
> 
> &#25105;&#35760;&#24471;&#25105;&#19968;&#30452;&#26159;8&#21544;&#27966;&#30340;&#65292;&#25105;&#26366;&#32463;&#35828;&#36807;&#21482;&#26377;J10AS(&#21452;&#24231&#22312;&#31639;&#19978;2&#20010;&#20154;&#30340;&#24773;&#20917;&#19979;&#31354;&#37325;&#25509;&#36817;8.9&#21544;&#12290;
> J10B&#22312;&#25193;&#22823;&#22797;&#21512;&#26448;&#26009;&#20351;&#29992;&#33539;&#22260;&#21518;&#34429;&#28982;&#22312;&#32467;&#26500;&#37325;&#37327;&#19978;&#20943;&#37325;&#26126;&#26174;&#65292;&#20294;&#30001;&#20110;AESE&#38647;&#36798;&#65292;&#20809;&#30005;&#38647;&#36798;&#65292;&#30005;&#25112;&#35774;&#22791;&#30340;&#22686;&#37325;&#25269;&#28040;&#20102;&#37096;&#20221;&#32467;&#26500;&#20943;&#37325;&#65292;J10B&#31354;&#37325;&#34429;&#27604;J10A&#26377;&#25152;&#20943;&#36731;&#65292;&#20294;J10B&#36824;&#26159;8&#21544;&#32423;&#30340;&#31354;&#37325;&#12290;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J10 &#31995;&#21015;
> 
> &#31354;&#20248;&#22411;&#65306;J10A
> 
> &#31354;&#20248;&#12289;&#23545;&#22320;&#25915;&#20987;&#22411; &#20860; &#21516;&#22411;&#25945;&#65306;J10S
> 
> (&#31354;&#20013;&#20248;&#21183 &#31354;&#20248;&#22411; &#20860; &#22810;&#29992;&#36884;&#65306;J10B
> 
> L15&#25104;&#29087;&#12289;&#37327;&#20135;&#21518;&#65292; J10S&#30340;&#20135;&#37327;&#20250;&#32553;&#20943;&#65292;&#36827;&#19968;&#27493;&#24773;&#20917;&#26410;&#30693;&#12290;
> 
> &#37325;5&#26381;&#24441;&#21069;&#65292;J10B&#23558;&#25104;&#20026;&#22269;&#22303;&#38450;&#31354;&#20027;&#21147;&#65292;&#31354;&#35013;&#23545;J10B&#30340;&#30740;&#21046;&#30447;&#24471;&#24456;&#32039;&#65292;&#31354;&#35013;&#26159;J10B&#30340;&#35746;&#36135;&#22823;&#25143;&#65292;&#19981;&#36807;&#28023;&#33322;&#24456;&#24819;&#25554;&#19968;&#33050;&#65292;&#20599;&#25688;&#23558;&#26469;&#30340;&#26524;&#23376;&#12290;
> 
> J10B&#37327;&#20135;&#21518;J10A&#23601;&#23558;&#36880;&#27493;&#20943;&#20135;&#30452;&#21040;&#20572;&#20135;&#12290;
> 
> &#30446;&#21069;(J10A+J10S)&#65306;(J11 &#31995;&#21015&#20135;&#37327;&#27604;&#20363;&#26159;2 &#65306;1
> 
> &#19981;&#25490;&#38500;&#23558;&#26469;&#20986;&#29616;(J10B)&#65306;(J11 &#31995;&#21015&#20135;&#37327;&#27604;&#20363; 3 &#65306;1 &#30340;&#21487;&#33021;



Translation as under



> In this current fighter AESA radar made the prototype TR component
> J10B small batch trial production faster, J10B used in this prototype is based on the increased yield and lower production costs will soon grant the TR component, as long as enough orders, the trial production period can be guaranteed more than (10 AESA radar / years) production.
> Other J10B full batch production, with an estimated domestic fighter AESA radar can guarantee the output of TR over component (50 AESA radar / year) of production.
> J11B, J15 will spend more domestic AESA radar.
> 
> AESA is currently playing a leading trial J10B responsibility,
> Production of the AESA will first meet the J10B,
> Ever-expanding future J10B AESA radar in the TR cluster components and enhance the availability of continuous improvement,
> On this basis, re-development of the F 5 generation of the AESA radar will significantly reduce costs and risks,
> The AESA radar from the F-10B, generic amplification equipment J11B, J15 of the AESA radar, will be put into operation.
> 
> 
> sopc_dsp: Posted at 2010-5-8 18:38
> J10A perform air superiority missions, mount capability is not weak, 6 missiles (two near 4) The maximum speed of not less than 1.8M, 4 missiles (2 near 2) The maximum speed of not less than 2M, with excellent ultra-high-altitude mobility speed of sound (supersonic circled high overload capacity of not less than 6g, 9g a near overload of transonic big U-turn capacity, 200 degrees / sec fast roll rate), excellent low-altitude subsonic alertness (low-altitude subsonic large hovering at 31 degrees of urgency, a high roll acceleration and about 300 degrees / sec fast roll (roll rate was more limited fax)).
> J10A perform escort missions, 4 missiles (2 near 2), 3 fuel tanks, full escort to meet JH7A requirements
> J10A only in the implementation of ground-to-sea combat missions against the ability of less than Su30kk, JH7A half.
> 
> To the air, the Air Force, its performance is very satisfactory. Not the focus on combat, we have seen, J10A rocket hit is quite accurate.
> 
> J10B-to-ground capability, although to be strengthened, but the air combat capability is improved several times, J10B main function is to combat air superiority,
> J10B overall aerodynamic shape of the transonic and supersonic area ratio of the depth of area rate optimization, re-design of the forward fuselage, vertical tail, pelvic, replacement of a new wing (airfoil is essentially the same, using a more complex material), a new generation of 3-dimensional supersonic inlet at 2 times the speed of sound BUMP available when the total pressure better than 3 wave system inlet, optimized aerodynamic shape in subsonic, transonic and supersonic envelope drag reduction effect was to speed up performance is improved. Judging from the test flight, with the missile at high altitude conditions (simulated projectile) the speed and the maximum static ceiling were all improved.
> J10B weight structural weight significantly, mount capability has been enhanced.
> 
> J10B using a new generation of avionics systems, including an improved flight control system, the latest supporting airborne phased array radar, (active / passive) electronic warfare systems, new optical radar.
> J10B system update no less than 70%
> 
> sopc_dsp 2010-5-8 19:43:
> TH's performance to be stable, j10b will become the Air Force's main fighter (HNA is not clear)
> 
> sopc_dsp Posted at 2010-5-10 16:35
> Some time ago, Liberation Army Daily, a paper, not 2 Battle 4 J10 J11 (upgraded), the launch failure, after forced to withdraw due wingman J10, J10 lead plane had to bite the bullet and go to one of four J10 J11, confrontation Results 4 J11 was determined to shoot down a single aircraft accident in fishing for a 4-0 record J10, J10 lead aircraft did not even think of.
> 
> This article, some time ago on the Internet has been touted before.
> 
> In fact after 06, 2 on 4,4 on 4,8 on the 8, J10 Battle is basically J11, but also a test of high-intensity combat, but also shot down a single aircraft was convicted J10, J11 is also a lot of determination Quanmie .
> 
> 
> 
> I remember when I was 8 tons have been sent, and I said only J10AS (seat) in the case of count 2, empty weight of individuals close to 8.9 tons.
> J10B in expanding the use of composite materials in structural weight after weight loss despite obvious, but AESE radar, optical radar, electronic warfare equipment, offset part of the structure of the weight gain weight, J10B J10A empty weight, is less than some relief, but J10B or empty weight of 8 tons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J10 Series
> 
> Air superiority type: J10A
> 
> Air superiority, ground attack and the same type of education: J10S
> 
> (Air superiority) air superiority over the type and purpose: J10B
> 
> L15 mature, mass production, J10S production will shrink, further information is unknown.
> 
> 5 before re-serving, J10B air defense will become the main land, air and equipment for the development keep a close eye J10B, J10B ordering air equipment is large, but the HNA would like into the act, picking fruit in the future.
> 
> J10A J10B mass production will be gradually cut until the cut-off.
> 
> Currently (J10A + J10S): (J11 series) production ratio is 2: 1
> 
> Not preclude the emergence (J10B): (J11 series) production ratio of 3: 1

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## xuwei

Pk_Thunder,your Chinese is so good,how could you translate it so quickly?


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## S.U.R.B.

xuwei said:


> Pk_Thunder,your Chinese is so good,how could you translate it so quickly?



_Google translate_ brother. Try yourself.


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## mjnaushad

google translater sucks really......

seigecrossbow need help here......


Anyway what i understood is J10 is under trail with AESA.....and if we can use KLJ 7 (smaller version of KLJ-10) AESA might also be an option .....Sorry for bringing JF 17....


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## SBD-3

I think siegecrossbow can be of help....in translating this


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## siegecrossbow

hasnain0099 said:


> I think siegecrossbow can be of help....in translating this



Right on sir:



> sopc_dsp:
> &#23601;&#36825;&#30446;&#21069;&#22269;&#20135;&#25112;&#26426;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#30340;TR&#32452;&#20214;&#30340;&#21407;&#22411;
> J10B&#30340;&#35797;&#20135;&#23567;&#25209;&#37327;&#24555;&#20102;&#65292;J10B&#29992;&#30340;&#23601;&#26159;&#22312;&#27492;&#21407;&#22411;&#22522;&#30784;&#19978;&#25552;&#39640;&#25104;&#21697;&#29575;&#12289;&#38477;&#20302;&#25104;&#26412;&#30340;&#25209;&#20135;&#22312;&#21363;&#30340;TR&#32452;&#20214;&#65292;&#21482; &#35201;&#35746;&#21333;&#36275;&#22815;&#65292;&#35797;&#20135;&#26399;&#38388;&#21487;&#20445;&#35777;&#22823;&#20110;&#65288;10&#37096;AESA&#38647;&#36798;/&#24180;&#65289;&#30340;&#20135;&#37327;&#12290;
> &#31561;J10B&#23436;&#20840;&#25209;&#20135;&#20102;&#65292;&#20272;&#35745;&#22269;&#20135;&#25112;&#26426;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#30340;TR&#32452;&#20214;&#30340;&#20135;&#37327;&#21487;&#20445;&#35777;&#36229;&#36807;&#65288;50&#37096;AESA &#38647;&#36798;/&#24180;&#65289;&#30340;&#20135;&#37327;&#12290;
> J11B&#12289;J15&#20063;&#20250;&#29992;&#19978;&#26356;&#22823;&#30340;&#22269;&#20135;AESA&#38647;&#36798;



sopc_dsp: This is the current model for the TR component on indigenous AESA radar for Chinese fighters. We'll see small scale productions (of this radar) for the J-10B soon. The one used by the J-10B is based on this model but will reduce defects and lower th ecost for mass producing the TR components. As long as there are enough orders, at least 10 AESA radars could be produced during the trial production period.
When J-10B enters mass production, I believe that the production rate for the TR component will exceed 50 per year. J-11B and J-15 will use larger indigenous AESA radars.



> &#30446;&#21069;J10B&#25285;&#24403;AESA&#39046;&#20808;&#35797;&#29992;&#30340;&#37325;&#20219;&#65292;
> &#37327;&#20135;&#30340;AESA&#20063;&#23558;&#39318;&#20808;&#28385;&#36275;J10B&#65292;
> &#23558;&#26469;&#22312;J10B&#19981;&#26029;&#25193;&#20805;&#30340;&#26426;&#32676;&#20013;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#30340;TR&#32452;&#20214;&#21487;&#33719;&#24471;&#19981;&#26029;&#30340;&#25913;&#36827;&#21644;&#25552;&#21319;&#65292;
> &#22312;&#27492;&#22522;&#30784;&#19978;&#30740;&#21046;5&#20195;&#37325;&#27516;&#30340;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#30340;&#25104;&#26412;&#21644;&#39118;&#38505;&#20250;&#22823;&#22823;&#38477;&#20302;&#65292;
> &#20174;&#27516;10B&#30340;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#65292;&#20223;&#21046;&#25918;&#22823;&#30340;&#35013;&#22791;J11B&#12289;J15&#30340;AESA&#38647;&#36798;&#65292;&#24517;&#23450;&#20250;&#25237;&#20135;&#30340;&#12290;



Right now the J-10B has the important task of being used as a AESA testing platform. As a result J-10B will be equipped by the first batch of AESAs. As more and more J-10Bs are produced in the future the TR component of AESA radars will also be modified and improved. By using this radar as a foundation for AESAs on 5th generation heavy fighters we can significantly reduce developmental costs and risks. The enlarged versions of J-10B's AESA radars will be used to equip J-11B and J-15s and those will be massed produced as well.



> sopc_dsp:&#21457;&#34920;&#20110; 2010-5-8 18:38
> J10A&#25191;&#34892;&#31354;&#20248;&#20219;&#21153;&#65292;&#25346;&#36733;&#33021;&#21147;&#19981;&#24369;&#65292;6&#26522;&#23548;&#24377;&#65288;2&#36817;4&#20013;&#65289;&#26368;&#22823;&#36895;&#24230;&#19981;&#23567;&#20110;1.8M,4&#26522;&#23548;&#24377;&#65288;2&#36817;2&#20013;&#65289; &#26368;&#22823;&#36895;&#24230;&#19981;&#23567;&#20110;2M&#65292;&#20855;&#26377;&#20248;&#31168;&#30340;&#39640;&#31354;&#36229;&#38899;&#36895;&#26426;&#21160;&#33021;&#21147;&#65288;&#36229;&#38899;&#36895;&#22823;&#36807;&#36733;&#30424;&#26059;&#33021;&#21147;&#19981;&#20302;&#20110;6g&#65292;&#20855;&#26377;&#36817;9g&#30340;&#36328;&#38899;&#36895; &#22823;&#36807;&#36733;&#25481;&#22836;&#33021;&#21147;&#65292;200&#24230;/&#31186;&#24555;&#36895;&#27178;&#28378;&#29575;&#65289;&#65292;&#20248;&#31168;&#30340;&#20013;&#20302;&#31354;&#20122;&#38899;&#36895;&#26426;&#25935;&#24615;&#65288;&#20013;&#20302;&#31354;&#20122;&#38899;&#36895;&#22823;&#20110;31&#24230;&#30340;&#24613;&#30424;&#26059;&#65292;&#26497;&#39640;&#30340;&#27178;&#28378;&#21152;&#36895;&#24230;&#21644;&#32422;300 &#24230;/&#31186;&#24555;&#36895;&#27178;&#28378;&#65288;&#26356;&#22823;&#30340;&#27178;&#28378;&#29575;&#34987;&#30005;&#20256;&#38480;&#21046;&#20102;&#65289;&#65289;&#12290;
> J10A&#25191;&#34892;&#25252;&#33322;&#20219;&#21153;&#65292;4&#26522;&#23548;&#24377;&#65288;2&#36817;2&#20013;&#65289;&#65292;3&#21103;&#27833;&#31665;&#65292;&#21487;&#28385;&#36275;JH7A&#20840;&#31243;&#25252;&#33322;&#35201;&#27714;&#65292;
> J10A&#21482;&#22312;&#25191;&#34892;&#23545;&#22320;&#23545;&#28023;&#25171;&#20987;&#20219;&#21153;&#26102;&#65292;&#25171;&#20987;&#33021;&#21147;&#19981;&#21450;Su30kk&#12289;JH7A&#30340;&#19968;&#21322;&#12290;



sopc_dsp:

J-10A's air to air capability and hardpoint capacity aren't exactly week. It could carry six missiles (two close-in heatseekers and 4 MRAAMS) and maintain a speed of Mach 1.8 and carry four missiles (two close in and 2 MRAAMS) and maintain a speed of Mach 2. It has superb manueverability at supersonic speeds (the airframe could tolerate 6 g at supersonic speeds at 9 g and subsonic speeds and has superb turning abilities, with a roll rate of 200 degrees/sec). It also has superb manueverability at medium to low speeds (with a turnrate of 30 degrees at subsonic speeds and a high roll rate of 300 degrees per second (higher turnrates are limited by the electronics)).

When the J-10A is on an escort mission it could carry 4 missiles (2 close-in and 2 MRAAMs) and three fuel tanks, enough to cover the range of the JH-7A. When the J-10A is used for ground and naval strike missions its capabilities are less than 1/2 of those of the Su-30Mkk and JH-7A.



> &#23601;&#21046;&#31354;&#32780;&#35328;&#65292;&#31354;&#20891;&#23545;&#20854;&#24615;&#33021;&#38750;&#24120;&#28385;&#24847;&#12290;&#23545;&#22320;&#25171;&#20987;&#19981;&#26159;&#20854;&#37325;&#28857;&#12289;&#22823;&#23478;&#20063;&#30475;&#36807;&#65292;J10A&#25171;&#28779;&#31661;&#24377;&#20063;&#26159;&#24456; &#20934;&#30340;&#12290;
> 
> J10B&#23545;&#22320;&#33021;&#21147;&#34429;&#24471;&#21040;&#21152;&#24378;&#65292;&#20294;&#20854;&#31354;&#25112;&#33021;&#21147;&#21017;&#25104;&#20493;&#25552;&#39640;&#65292;J10B&#30340;&#20027;&#35201;&#20316;&#25112;&#21151;&#33021;&#36824;&#26159;&#31354;&#20248;&#65292;
> J10B&#30340;&#24635;&#20307;&#27668;&#21160;&#22806;&#24418;&#23545;&#36328;&#38899;&#36895;&#38754;&#31215;&#29575;&#21644;&#36229;&#38899;&#36895;&#38754;&#31215;&#29575;&#36827;&#34892;&#20102;&#28145;&#24230;&#20248;&#21270;&#65292;&#37325;&#26032;&#35774;&#35745;&#20102;&#21069;&#26426;&#36523;&#12289;&#22402;&#30452;&#23614;&#32764;&#12289;&#33145;&#40141;&#65292; &#26356;&#25442;&#20102;&#26032;&#30340;&#20027;&#32764;&#65288;&#32764;&#22411;&#22522;&#26412;&#19981;&#21464;&#65292;&#37319;&#29992;&#20102;&#26356;&#22810;&#30340;&#22797;&#21512;&#26448;&#26009;&#65289;&#65292;&#26032;&#19968;&#20195;&#30340;3&#32500;&#36229;&#38899;&#36895;BUMP&#36827;&#27668;&#36947;&#22312;2&#20493;&#38899;&#36895;&#26102;&#21487; &#25552;&#20379;&#30340;&#24635;&#21387;&#24674;&#22797;&#22909;&#20110;3&#27874;&#31995;&#36827;&#27668;&#36947;&#65292;&#20248;&#21270;&#21518;&#30340;&#27668;&#21160;&#22806;&#24418;&#22312;&#20122;&#12289;&#36328;&#12289;&#36229;&#38899;&#36895;&#30340;&#21253;&#32447;&#20869;&#30340;&#20943;&#38459;&#25928;&#26524;&#26126;&#26174;&#65292;&#21152;&#36895;&#24615;&#33021;&#24471;&#21040; &#25913;&#21892;&#12290;&#20174;&#35797;&#39134;&#24773;&#20917;&#26469;&#30475;&#65292;&#39640;&#31354;&#24102;&#24377;&#24773;&#20917;&#19979;&#65288;&#27169;&#25311;&#24377;&#65289;&#30340;&#26497;&#36895;&#21644;&#26368;&#22823;&#38745;&#21319;&#38480;&#22343;&#26377;&#25152;&#25552;&#39640;&#12290;
> J10B&#30340;&#32467;&#26500;&#37325;&#37327;&#20943;&#37325;&#26126;&#26174;&#65292;&#25346;&#36733;&#33021;&#21147;&#26377;&#25152;&#22686;&#24378;&#12290;



The air force is very satisfied with the J-10's air to air capabilities and air to ground capabilities aren't exactly the focus. However, as we can all see, the J-10 is still very good at straffing targets with unguided rockets.

The J-10B (compared to J-10A) has modestly improved its air to ground capabilities but its air to air capabilities has improved many folds. J-10B is still primarily an air superiority fighter. Its airframe has been redesigned with an emphasis on improved transonic and supersonic area rules. The front, vertical tail, pectoral fins, and wings (the wing shape didn't change but more composite materials were used) were all redesigned. A new generation 3D supersonic BUMP intake could perform better than the traditional air intake at Mach 2+ speeds. The improved airframe has significantly reduced air resistance at sub, trans, and supersonic speeds and the acceleration has improved as a result of this. Judging from the testflights so far, the max high altitude air speed (with missiles, dummies) and the maximum operational ceiling have both increased.

The J-10B has significantly reduced weight and the max load of the plane has increased.



> J10B&#37319;&#29992;&#20102;&#26032;&#19968;&#20195;&#30340;&#33322;&#30005;&#31995;&#32479;&#65292;&#21253;&#25324;&#25913;&#36827;&#30340;&#39134;&#25511;&#31995;&#32479;&#65292;&#26368;&#26032;&#30340;&#37197;&#22871;&#26426;&#36733;&#30456;&#25511;&#38453;&#38647;&#36798;&#12289;&#65288;&#20027;&#21160;/&#34987;&#21160;&#65289;&#30005;&#25112;&#31995;&#32479;&#65292;&#26032;&#22686;&#20809;&#30005;&#38647;&#36798;&#12290;
> J10B&#30340;&#31995;&#32479;&#26356;&#26032;&#27604;&#20363;&#19981;&#20302;&#20110;70&#37;
> 
> sopc_dsp 2010-5-8 19:43 :
> &#24453;TH&#30340;&#24615;&#33021;&#31283;&#23450;&#20102;&#65292;j10b&#23558;&#25104;&#20026;&#25105;&#31354;&#20891;&#30340;&#20027;&#21147;&#25112;&#26426;&#65288;&#28023;&#33322;&#19981;&#28165;&#26970;&#65289;
> 
> sopc_dsp &#21457;&#34920;&#20110; 2010-5-10 16:35
> &#21069;&#27573;&#26102;&#38388;&#65292;&#35299;&#25918;&#20891;&#25253;&#26576;&#25991;&#65292;&#19981;&#26159;2&#26550;J10&#23545;&#25112;4&#26550;J11&#65288;&#21319;&#32423;&#36807;&#30340;&#65289;&#65292; &#21319;&#31354;&#21518; J10&#20698;&#26426;&#22240;&#25925;&#38556;&#34987;&#36843;&#36864;&#20986;&#65292;J10&#38271;&#26426;&#21482;&#24471;&#30828;&#30528;&#22836;&#30382;&#21435;1&#26550;J10&#23545;4&#26550;J11&#65292;&#23545;&#25239;&#32467;&#26524;4&#26550;J11&#34987;&#21028;&#23450;&#20987; &#33853;&#65292;&#21333;&#26550;J10&#24847;&#22806;&#25438;&#20010;4:0&#25112;&#32489;&#65292;&#36830;J10&#38271;&#26426;&#37117;&#27809;&#24819;&#21040;&#12290;



The J-10B has employed a new generation of avionics. This includes improved flight control, new plane carried radar, active/passive electronic warfare pods, and a newly added photoelectric radar. At least 70% of J-10's systems have been upgraded.

When the TH capabilities become stable, J-10B will become the backbone of China's airforce (I don't know about PLANAF).

A while ago I read, on a PLAAF report, that it wasn't two J-10s going up against four J-11s (upgraded ones). When the planes got into the air one of the J-10s had to make an emergency landing so the other J-10 had to go up against 4 J-11s by itself. In the end all four J-11s were "shot down" by the J-10 and the J-10 earned a 4-0 victory by accident. Not even the J-10 pilot thought he could've pulled that off.



> &#27492;&#25991;&#65292;&#21069;&#27573;&#26102;&#38388;&#22312;&#32593;&#19978;&#24050;&#34987;&#28909;&#28818;&#36807;&#20102;&#12290;
> 
> &#23454;&#38469;&#19978;06&#24180;&#20197;&#21518;&#65292;2&#23545;4&#65292;4&#23545;4&#65292;8&#23545;8&#65292;J10&#23545;&#25112;&#30340;&#22522;&#26412;&#19978;&#26159;J11&#65292;&#32780;&#19988;&#26159;&#22823;&#24378;&#24230;&#26816;&#39564;&#24615;&#23545;&#25239;&#65292;&#20063;&#26377;&#21333; &#26550;J10&#34987;&#21028;&#23450;&#20987;&#33853;&#65292;J11&#34987;&#21028;&#23450;&#20840;&#28781;&#20063;&#19981;&#23569;&#12290;
> 
> 
> 
> &#25105;&#35760;&#24471;&#25105;&#19968;&#30452;&#26159;8&#21544;&#27966;&#30340;&#65292;&#25105;&#26366;&#32463;&#35828;&#36807;&#21482;&#26377;J10AS(&#21452;&#24231&#22312;&#31639;&#19978;2&#20010;&#20154;&#30340;&#24773;&#20917;&#19979;&#31354;&#37325;&#25509;&#36817;8. 9&#21544;&#12290;
> J10B&#22312;&#25193;&#22823;&#22797;&#21512;&#26448;&#26009;&#20351;&#29992;&#33539;&#22260;&#21518;&#34429;&#28982;&#22312;&#32467;&#26500;&#37325;&#37327;&#19978;&#20943;&#37325;&#26126;&#26174;&#65292;&#20294;&#30001;&#20110;AESE&#38647;&#36798;&#65292;&#20809;&#30005;&#38647;&#36798;&#65292;&#30005;&#25112;&#35774;&#22791;&#30340;&#22686; &#37325;&#25269;&#28040;&#20102;&#37096;&#20221;&#32467;&#26500;&#20943;&#37325;&#65292;J10B&#31354;&#37325;&#34429;&#27604;J10A&#26377;&#25152;&#20943;&#36731;&#65292;&#20294;J10B&#36824;&#26159;8&#21544;&#32423;&#30340;&#31354;&#37325;&#12290;



The article above has gained notoriety a short while before.

Since 2006 the 2-4, 4-4, and 8-8 mock airbattles involving the J-10 were all against the J-11s. Some J-10s have been "shot down" but entire groups of J-11s have been "decimated as well.

I remember that I've always been a part of the "8-ton" party (the author believes that the J-10 weighs eight metric tons). From what I've heard only J-10AS (two pilot variant) has an operational weight of 8.9 tons. Although the J-10B decreased the structural weight significantly by using more composite materials the AESA radar, photoelectric radar, and electronic attack pods have offset the weight reduction to some degree. Although the structural weight of the J-10B is less than that of the J-10A, the actual weight of the plane is still 8 tons.



> J10 &#31995;&#21015;
> 
> &#31354;&#20248;&#22411;&#65306;J10A
> 
> &#31354;&#20248;&#12289;&#23545;&#22320;&#25915;&#20987;&#22411; &#20860; &#21516;&#22411;&#25945;&#65306;J10S
> 
> (&#31354;&#20013;&#20248;&#21183 &#31354;&#20248;&#22411; &#20860; &#22810;&#29992;&#36884;&#65306;J10B
> 
> L15&#25104;&#29087;&#12289;&#37327;&#20135;&#21518;&#65292; J10S&#30340;&#20135;&#37327;&#20250;&#32553;&#20943;&#65292;&#36827;&#19968;&#27493;&#24773;&#20917;&#26410;&#30693;&#12290;
> 
> &#37325;5&#26381;&#24441;&#21069;&#65292;J10B&#23558;&#25104;&#20026;&#22269;&#22303;&#38450;&#31354;&#20027;&#21147;&#65292;&#31354;&#35013;&#23545;J10B&#30340;&#30740;&#21046;&#30447;&#24471;&#24456;&#32039;&#65292;&#31354;&#35013;&#26159;J10B&#30340;&#35746;&#36135;&#22823;&#25143;&#65292;&#19981;&#36807; &#28023;&#33322;&#24456;&#24819;&#25554;&#19968;&#33050;&#65292;&#20599;&#25688;&#23558;&#26469;&#30340;&#26524;&#23376;&#12290;
> 
> J10B&#37327;&#20135;&#21518;J10A&#23601;&#23558;&#36880;&#27493;&#20943;&#20135;&#30452;&#21040;&#20572;&#20135;&#12290;
> 
> &#30446;&#21069;(J10A+J10S)&#65306;(J11 &#31995;&#21015&#20135;&#37327;&#27604;&#20363;&#26159;2 &#65306;1
> 
> &#19981;&#25490;&#38500;&#23558;&#26469;&#20986;&#29616;(J10B)&#65306;(J11 &#31995;&#21015&#20135;&#37327;&#27604;&#20363; 3 &#65306;1 &#30340;&#21487;&#33021;



J-10 series:

Air superiority variant: J-10A

Air superiority, ground attack, and trainer: J-10S

Air superiority and multi-role: J-10B

When the L-15 becomes mature and is mass produced the production of J-10S will probably decrease. 

Before the heavy 5th generation fighter enters service, the J-10B will be the backbone of China's air defence. The Air Force is watching the J-10B development anxiously since it is J-10B's primary customer but we shouldn't rule out the possibility that the PLANAF will try to interfere and "steal the fruits" of the Air Force.

When the J-10B enters mass production the production of J-10A will end.

Currently J-10 production (J-10A/S) vs J-11 production is about 2:1.

When the J-10B emerges the ratio will probably be 3:1 (against J-11s).

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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> A while ago I read, on a PLAAF report, that it wasn't two J-10s going up against four J-11s (upgraded ones). When the planes got into the air one of the J-10s had to make an emergency landing so the other J-10 had to go up against 4 J-11s by itself. In the end all four J-11s were "shot down" by the J-10 and the J-10 earned a 4-0 victory by accident. Not even the J-10 pilot thought he could've pulled that off.
> 
> 
> 
> The article above has gained notoriety a short while before.
> 
> Since 2006 the 2-4, 4-4, and 8-8 mock airbattles involving the J-10 were all against the J-11s. Some J-10s have been "shot down" but entire groups of J-11s have been "decimated as well.



So will there also be an improvement in J-11B's Air superiority skill set or they will be assigned the role of Strike force rather than Air superiority? (which IMHO will negate the development of J-11BS variant)


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## siegecrossbow

hasnain0099 said:


> So will there also be an improvement in J-11Bs or they will be assigned the role of Strike force rather than Airsuperiority?



I don't think that the J-11B will every be used primarily as a strike fighter. That job is for the Su-30MKK. What the article is saying is that the J-10B will be the backbone of China's Air superority fighters, not the J-11B.

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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> I don't think that the J-11B will every be used primarily as a strike fighter. That job is for the Su-30MKK. What the article is saying is that the J-10B will be the backbone of China's Air superority fighters, not the J-11B.


But i read somewhere that China would be updating its flanker fleet (J-11s) to SU-35BM level....any news on this??


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## Manticore

CANARDS -- i found some nice info and wanted to share it with you guys



> If you look at the basics you will find that canards have advantages and disadvantages.
> In modern fighter aircraft canards are used as vortex generators, it means as a way to increase wing lift at high AoA, in most cases are used on Delta wing aircraft, like the Rafale and J-10.
> Canards are used also as pitch control, in this case they are very useful as a pitch up force in turns, this gives an aircraft excellent instantaneous turn rates, they can also be used as STOL devices reducing Take off or landing approaching speeds.
> In the case of the Su-34 and B-1B, they are used as turbulance dampers at low altitude and high speed.
> Now these are canard`s main advantages, the main disadvantage is they reduce wing lift at level flight, thus having more drag.
> 
> Shape and position are also constraigns and limits they have, the best position for a canard is above wing level, thus its low preassure vortex increases wing lift at high AoA.
> 
> The Shape is also very important, for an aircraft in order to reduce drag at level flight while using a canard , it needs a small high aspect canard with weak wingtip vortex downwash but this means it will generate less wing lift at high AoA due to the same weaker wingtip vortex.
> 
> If the canard needs to create more lift at high Ao A a big low aspect canard is used but this generate more drag at level flight.
> canard wing distance is also important a closer position to the wing means more drag and less lift at level flight but better wing lift at high AoAs.
> 
> On aircraft with tailplanes you can use LERXes sometimes called wing strakes and LEVCONs to increase wing lift at high AoA, these wing strakes generate low preassue vortices like canards do therefore increasing wing lift at high AoA.
> The LERX by its self can not be uses as a pitch control device, but if used on an aircraft with tailplanes that disadvantage does not exist.
> 
> The LERX does not generate downwash, and the same is for the LEVCON, reducing thus drag and wing size.
> 
> Canards also limit the max lift potential of the wing, this makes canards highly mission dependant, as you can see stealth aircraft have shape and position limitations that will impact an aircraft with canards in a greater way than one with tailplanes.
> Now the use of thrust vectoring aids by reducing the pitch control tailplanes do thus reducing trimming drag and allowing the tailplanes to be used as roll devices.
> 
> In the T-50 you will find it has LEVCONs and LERXes, so these devices are increasing wing lift at high AoA as a canard would do but without the canard generated downwash.
> In both the F-22 and





> To understand canards we first have to understand they are wings, as a wing they have trailing edges, at the end of any trailing edge the upper wing`s low preassure and the lower wing`s high preassure meet, this creates the downwash, at the tip of any wing you also have a place where the wing`s difference of preassure meet, this usually create downwash too, on straight wing or a very high aspect wing this is a realtively weak vortex and therefore generates weaker downwash; the F-14 will sweep its wing at 16 degrees to make it straight basicly reducing its swept thus reducing the relative AoA of the wing and induced lift drag.
> So the F-14 wing at 16 degree of swept does not need a higher AoA to achieve higher lift as a delta wing will, a higher AoA also induce low preassure wing separation and stall the wing at very high AoA.
> 
> A highly swept wing generates a strong low preassure vortex that moves diagonally with respect the aircraft flight path until its shed behind the wing.
> 
> Delta wings are this type of wing, so a highly swept LERX or canard generate stronger low preassure vortices than a a lower swept LERX or Canard.
> 
> Now, the canard low preassure vortex appears the strongest at high angles of attacks. it means that the canard vortex will only increase the wing lift above 5 degrees of AoA up to 40 degrees of AoA, however the canard downwash affects mostly at level flight or 0 degrees of AoA, this kills wing lift at level flight.
> 
> The LERXs has no trailing edge, thus it has no downwash.
> 
> Now a canard as a pitch control is positioned with the certer of gravity in a way it can balance the aircraft as it pitches up or down, this is achieved by increasing or reducing lift.
> A LERX can not do that because it is part of the wing and it shares a common center of preassure with the main wing, therefore you need tailplanes or elevons.
> 
> The Canard and wing do not share a common center of lift , so they can be used as the tips of a seesaw or two boys each one seated at each extreme of the seesaw, with the center of gravity balanced by these two lifting surfaces basicly working like a fulcrum of a lever.
> Now at turns, the wing is at higher AoAs so the canard aids the wing by increasing its lift as it is while landing or taking off.
> The reason why canards are prefered over tailplanes is since they generate lift ahead of the center of gravity they generate a pitch up force so while turning the response is quicker than a tailplane this will increase Instantaneous turn rates.
> the problem of this is most modern fighters with canards have delta wings, a delta as i told you before gets stalled faster than a straight wing because of the downwash it generates, if you are flying a F-14 you will set the wing at mid settings around 45 degrees or 16 at very low speeds so you wing has the lowest drag lift.
> 
> Most canard delta wing aircraft bleed energy fast in turns so the have a big difference in instantaneous turn rates and sustained turn rates.
> 
> Now if you possition the canard at lower levels than the wing the lower preassure vortices it generates goes under the wing thus reducing even further the wing lift, that is the reason canards are set above the wing level.
> 
> The canard generates a pitch up force so as control surface to pitch up the aircraft it is easier but not pitching down, so their size is reduced as a pitch up force but not as pitch down control, An aircraft with canards can use the wing elevons too as pitch devices like are used on a tailess delta wing. most aircraft have small canards to reduce drag. Because canards need to be very close to the wing like in the Rafale, so in order to reduce downwash a small size is recomended.

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## S.U.R.B.

ANTIBODY said:


> CANARDS -- i found some nice info and wanted to share it with you guys



And you forgot to mention the *source*.Anyways nice job doc.

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## Manticore

S.U.R.B. said:


> And you forgot to mention the *source*.Anyways nice job doc.



i wasnt sure if i could post someother forum's link here bro-- i think youre the same 'surb' there? -- anyone can paste the first sentence of my qoute and google it , to find the source anyway

[hahaha , i didnt say that i wrote it - rather i found it on the net!]

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## siegecrossbow

hasnain0099 said:


> But i read somewhere that China would be updating its flanker fleet (J-11s) to SU-35BM level....any news on this??



I don't know just how far China will upgrade the J-11s. Perhaps "Silent Flankers" will be the ultimate incarnation of Chinese J-11s, perhaps not. What I know for sure is that the J-11B is probably not going to be China's last domestic flanker variation.

Many Pakistani brothers support Pakistan's purchase of J-11s. Do you guys still think this way after reading the reports on mockfights between the J-10s and J-11s though? I know that the J-11 is a superb AA platform too but the maintenance cost for a twin engined heavy fighter is higher than that of a single engined fighter like the J-10. Besides China may face pressure from Russia and possibly India for such a deal. It seems that J-10B may be the best contender for the "high" in Pakistan's High-lo combination (Lo being the FC-1).

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## gypgypgyp

siegecrossbow said:


> I don't know just how far China will upgrade the J-11s. Perhaps "Silent Flankers" will be the ultimate incarnation of Chinese J-11s, perhaps not. What I know for sure is that the J-11B is probably not going to be China's last domestic flanker variation.
> 
> Many Pakistani brothers support Pakistan's purchase of J-11s. Do you guys still think this way after reading the reports on mockfights between the J-10s and J-11s though? I know that the J-11 is a superb AA platform too but the maintenance cost for a twin engined heavy fighter is higher than that of a single engined fighter like the J-10. Besides China may face pressure from Russia and possibly India for such a deal. It seems that J-10B may be the best contender for the "high" in Pakistan's High-lo combination (Lo being the FC-1).



The battle result you mention about is happened around 2006, and it is J-10(which newly design and build around 2005) versus J-11(newly build but the design still use Su-27sk. Su-27sk was designed in late 1980's and into PLAAF service in 1992.) I don't think the result show the potential ability of two airframe, especially consider in version J-11b was in service around 2009.

and the advantage for Su-27 is that they are BIG, it is mean you have more free space to add up more stuff. Aircraft will be in service around 25 to 30 years. The MLU potential is realy essential point for any aircraft.

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## xuwei

hasnain0099 said:


> But i read somewhere that China would be updating its flanker fleet (J-11s) to SU-35BM level....any news on this??



J11s will not follow SU35 or SU27,China will established military security System by ourself,and we did it.

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## siegecrossbow

gypgypgyp said:


> The battle result you mention about is happened around 2006, and it is J-10(which newly design and build around 2005) versus J-11(newly build but the design still use Su-27sk. Su-27sk was designed in late 1980's and into PLAAF service in 1992.) I don't think the result show the potential ability of two airframe, especially consider in version J-11b was in service around 2009.
> 
> and the advantage for Su-27 is that they are BIG, it is mean you have more free space to add up more stuff. Aircraft will be in service around 25 to 30 years. The MLU potential is realy essential point for any aircraft.



Well I agree with you that the J-11 is a great platform and has good upgrade potential. However is it truly suitable for the needs of the Pakistan Air Force, which has significantly different doctrines from that of the PLAAF?


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## AVIAN

siegecrossbow said:


> Well I agree with you that the J-11 is a great platform and has good upgrade potential. However is it truly suitable for the needs of the Pakistan Air Force, which has significantly different doctrines from that of the PLAAF?



It is not doctrine, rather Purchase and Operating Cost of operating Flanker which makes it beyond the reach of PAF.


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## AVIAN

gypgypgyp said:


> The battle result you mention about is happened around 2006, and it is J-10(which newly design and build around 2005) versus J-11(newly build but the design still use Su-27sk. Su-27sk was designed in late 1980's and into PLAAF service in 1992.) I don't think the result show the potential ability of two airframe, especially consider in version J-11b was in service around 2009.
> 
> and the advantage for Su-27 is that they are BIG, it is mean you have more free space to add up more stuff. Aircraft will be in service around 25 to 30 years. The MLU potential is realy essential point for any aircraft.




First time I heard that big airframe bestow Flanker with more advantages as far as above post is concerned.


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## SBD-3

AVIAN said:


> It is not doctrine, rather Purchase and Operating Cost of operating Flanker which makes it beyond the reach of PAF.


may be but PAF is satisfied with the current developments and given the J-10B will be the air superiority fighter of PAF, it seems somewhat unnecessary to have another big bird for this role unless you can do it with a medium one but obviously PAF will gradually move to medium and ultimately heavy birds if regional situation warrants this

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## TaimiKhan

AVIAN said:


> It is not doctrine, rather Purchase and Operating Cost of operating Flanker which makes it beyond the reach of PAF.



None of the above issues, if Flankers are deemed as dire need and of dire importance, but since they are not and we can have other platforms which can fulfill the requirements of PAF more effectively and efficiently, then why go for Flankers. 

If the day comes and we need flankers badly, we will get them, we can very well buy them as well as operate them.

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## siegecrossbow

Video on Peace Mission 2010 featuring J-10 and H-6! Jump ahead to :36 to see them!

¡°ºÍÆ½Ê¹Ãü-2010¡±ÁªºÏ·´¿Ö¾üÑÝ£º½ñÌì¾ÙÐÐÊµ±øÑÝÁ·_ÔÚÏßÊÓÆµ¹Û¿´_ÍÁ¶¹ÍøÊÓÆµ ¹þÈø¿ËË¹Ì¹ ºÍÆ½Ê¹Ãü2010·´

Looks like the primary mission of the J-10 at the exercise was to protect the H-6 by releasing flares at lower altitudes. Does any one have a video of the J-10 straffing targets with rockets or carrying out precision guided bombing? Thnx.

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## SBD-3

TaimiKhan said:


> None of the above issues, if Flankers are deemed as dire need and of dire importance, but since they are not and we can have other platforms which can fulfill the requirements of PAF more effectively and efficiently, then why go for Flankers.
> 
> If the day comes and we need flankers badly, we will get them, we can very well buy them as well as operate them.



Rather than J-11s which has a possibility "may be or may not be". I think PAF may have the possibility of procurement of F-15s under EDA when F-15 fleet is retired by USAF.


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## siegecrossbow

hasnain0099 said:


> Rather than J-11s which has a possibility "may be or may not be". I think PAF may have the possibility of procurement of F-15s under EDA when F-15 fleet is retired by USAF.



I personally think that the F-15 might be a tad bit too old by the time it is retired by USAF. Pakistan might be better off investing in a lighter plane with stealth characteristics.


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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> I personally think that the F-15 might be a tad bit too old by the time it is retired by USAF. Pakistan might be better off investing in a lighter plane with stealth characteristics.


there are a couple of advantages of any such offers
1- only payment of cost of upgrades...
2- Possibility of upgradation upton Silent Eagle standard in 40 Million USD (as per the statement of company)
so effectively in 50 Million range,PAF can procure a LO aircraft


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## TaimiKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> Rather than J-11s which has a possibility "may be or may not be". I think PAF may have the possibility of procurement of F-15s under EDA when F-15 fleet is retired by USAF.



No more US aircraft, hope F-16s are the last of them. 

World is going towards stealth, we should start looking that way now, not backwards and look for F-15s, plus F-15s are gonna be one hell of a trouble for us.

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## SBD-3

TaimiKhan said:


> No more US aircraft, hope F-16s are the last of them.
> 
> World is going towards stealth, we should start looking that way now, not backwards and look for F-15s, plus F-15s are gonna be one hell of a trouble for us.



well F-15s are certainly not backward...look at singapore and Korea which have procured brand new F-15s....F-15s will remain effective until Sukhoiz and Migs are flying around.


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## TaimiKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> well F-15s are certainly not backward...look at singapore and Korea which have procured brand new F-15s....F-15s will remain effective until Sukhoiz and Migs are flying around.



They are buying the latest models, while you talked about EDA, which would be initially the older models, and by the time the latest models get to EDA, Migs and Sukhois might be about to leave. 

Plus, its AMERICAN. So better we keep ourselves away from as much american platforms as possible.

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## SBD-3

TaimiKhan said:


> They are buying the latest models, while you talked about EDA, which would be initially the older models, and by the time the latest models get to EDA, Migs and Sukhois might be about to leave.
> 
> Plus, its AMERICAN. So better we keep ourselves away from as much american platforms as possible.



at least Indian MKIs (which they are procuring right now) wont be grounded uptil then, regarding their age, I did mention that PAF can upgrade even F-15Cs (which are expected to be retired earlier than E versions) to SE standard. The manufacturer will be happy to do this as the company's upgrade offer stands for all the Eagle operators and further in the face of stiff compitition with LMCo JSF-35, the company is desperate for new customers. Even Boeing's 6th Gen will also be availbale for customers of F-15s. So eventhough its american but potentially we can have a 5th Gen option at least. I mean after all, we will own these aircraft and can use them in case of need. There is a cost, but also a lot of benifit.


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## Areesh

I wish F16 would be the last American AC for PAF. No more American AC's please.


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## xuwei

gypgypgyp said:


> The battle result you mention about is happened around 2006, and it is J-10(which newly design and build around 2005) versus J-11(newly build but the design still use Su-27sk. Su-27sk was designed in late 1980's and into PLAAF service in 1992.) I don't think the result show the potential ability of two airframe, especially consider in version J-11b was in service around 2009.
> 
> and the advantage for Su-27 is that they are BIG, it is mean you have more free space to add up more stuff. Aircraft will be in service around 25 to 30 years. The MLU potential is realy essential point for any aircraft.



My friend,your information perhaps not right.
The time when J11b in service is more earlier,and most J11A (not su27sk) had upgrated twards the standard of J11B.
J10A not just beat J11A,J11B,but also SU30MKK,MKK2.PLAAF often carry out against the drill internal.
So it is the most Air superiority fighter in China,but the Ability of capmulti-purpose ,voyage is not so good to J11.


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## Donatello

Areesh said:


> I wish F16 would be the last American AC for PAF. No more American AC's please.



They are.

The next gen American planes are F/A-22 which is off limits to anyone.

F-35, still under development, too expensive and really not worth the trouble of integrating.


They aren't offering much.

F-16BLK 52+ is the last plane Pakistan is getting. Remember we are configuring our own version of J-10 so we don't need American A/Cs anymore.


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## siegecrossbow

xuwei said:


> My friend,your information perhaps not right.
> The time when J11b in service is more earlier,and most J11A (not su27sk) had upgrated twards the standard of J11B.
> J10A not just beat J11A,J11B,but also SU30MKK,MKK2.PLAAF often carry out against the drill internal.
> So it is the most Air superiority fighter in China,but the Ability of capmulti-purpose ,voyage is not so good to J11.



The J-11B prototype flew in 2006. I think the J-11s engaged by the J-10As in 2006 were upgraded J-11As and not true J-11Bs, with incorporated superior avionics, far more composite material, and significant RCS reduction. The article did mention, however, that the J-10As were able to gain an advantage over J-11s in later exercises.


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## sancho

hasnain0099 said:


> at least Indian MKIs (which they are procuring right now) wont be grounded uptil then, regarding their age, I did mention that PAF can upgrade even F-15Cs (which are expected to be retired earlier than E versions) to SE standard. The manufacturer will be happy to do this as the company's upgrade offer stands for all the Eagle operators and further in the face of stiff compitition with LMCo JSF-35, the company is desperate for new customers. Even Boeing's 6th Gen will also be availbale for customers of F-15s. So eventhough its american but potentially we can have a 5th Gen option at least. I mean after all, we will own these aircraft and can use them in case of need. There is a cost, but also a lot of benifit.



The Silent Eagle is not developed as an upgrade package for older F15s, but as a dedicated fighter version and as an alternative to 5. gen fighters. But so far not even Israel, or Saudi Arabia gets them, so PAF won't get them for sure. If the US offers PAF a new fighter, I think it will be F18 Super Hornet in this decade, or F35 in the next, but that's a long time and many things can change till then. 
J10 instead is a good and cost-effective hi level fighter for PAF, I don't think they will go for a 4th type besides it F16 and JFT.

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## General General

The Pakistan Airforce modernization program 2009-2019 does not incorporate a twin engine fighter, only single engine ones.

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## @rrows

General General said:


> The Pakistan Airforce modernization program 2009-2019 does not incoporate a twin engine fighter, only single engine ones.



you are absolutely correct, PAF did not incorporated a twin engine fighters in modernization program 2009-19. Lets wait & watch if PAF deem to have any twin engine fighters in its elite fleet.


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## AVIAN

@rrows said:


> you are absolutely correct, PAF did not incorporated a twin engine fighters in modernization program 2009-19. Lets wait & watch if PAF deem to have any twin engine fighters in its elite fleet.



Then why does it is still operating Q-5 in its elite fleet?


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## siegecrossbow

AVIAN said:


> Then why does it is still operating Q-5 in its elite fleet?



Q-5 isn't technically a fighter, it is more of a ground attack aircraft.

The only twin-engined fighter that Pakistan formerly operated was the F-6.


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## AVIAN

siegecrossbow said:


> Q-5 isn't technically a fighter, it is more of a ground attack aircraft.
> 
> The only twin-engined fighter that Pakistan formerly operated was the F-6.



Well, I never contexted its role rather its mistake to not to include Q-5 in PAF's elite modernization plan.


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## Quwa

In MY opinion, Pakistan must avoid getting itself entangled with the Americans needlessly - and if that means avoiding arms-transactions, then so be it. Ideally the purchase of F-16s and Cobras should be considered as pure commercial transactions, but realistically speaking, I am sure they're closely tied to Washington's policy objectives and consequently Islamabad's subordination (i.e. following U.S orders). Until our relations with U.S. are strictly business/commercial, we should avoid them...


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## fatman17

AVIAN said:


> Then why does it is still operating Q-5 in its elite fleet?



there were only 2 sqdns equipped with the A-5, 16 and 26 based at peshawar - in the process of being replaced by the JF-17. A-5 is history IMO.


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## Pk_Thunder

fatman17 said:


> there were only 2 sqdns equipped with the A-5, 16 and 26 based at peshawar - in the process of being replaced by the JF-17. A-5 is history IMO.



Na Sirji I still see A-5 flying in the skies...Whenever i stand outside to see jf17 thunder fly,i come back home disappointed after seeing A-5 fly instead...lagta hai itni asani se jaan nahi chorrnay walay

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## TaimiKhan

Pk_Thunder said:


> Sir I still see A-5 flying in the skies...Whenever i stand outside to see jf17 thunder fly,i come back home disappointed after seeing A-5 fly instead...lagta hai itni asani se jaan nahi chorrnay walay



hahahaaahahah, same case with me. 

I hear the sound of the fighter, go out and see the A-5s going by. 

Well it seems the pilots need their monthly hours, thus one of the Sqd is flying. 

We have for now just one the 26th Sqd raised with JF-17s, while the other Sqd is still left. 

Thus the day we see the other Sqd raised, we may see no more A-5s, but they will be kept in flying condition and once in a while see them fly also. 

Waiting patiently for the day JF-17s come and i go to the runway boundary and make videos of it.

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## fatman17

Pk_Thunder said:


> Na Sirji I still see A-5 flying in the skies...Whenever i stand outside to see jf17 thunder fly,i come back home disappointed after seeing A-5 fly instead...lagta hai itni asani se jaan nahi chorrnay walay



where have i said they are not flying anymore - if u cant understand what i am trying to say, then what can i say.....


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## xuwei

some imformation about the Chinese 5'th g fighter.

huzhigeng &#21457;&#34920;&#20110; 2010-10-2 08:39
&#20197;&#21518;&#25112;&#26426;&#37325;&#22411;&#21270;&#26159;&#36235;&#21183;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#30475;&#30475;&#21035;&#20154;&#32769;&#32654;&#21543;&#12290;F35&#21495;&#31216;&#20013;&#22411;&#12290;&#12290;&#34429;&#28982;&#26159;&#21333;&#21457;&#12290;&#21487;&#26159;&#27604;&#26576;&#20123;&#21452;&#21457;&#26426;&#36824;&#35201;&#37325;&#22411;&#21270;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#33267;&#20110;&#19981;&#30475;&#22909;&#25104;&#39134;&#25630;&#37325;&#22235;&#12290;&#12290;&#21035;&#20154;&#27516;&#21313;&#25630;&#24471;&#22909;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#22235;&#20195;&#26041;&#26696;&#35780;&#23457;&#30340;&#26102;&#20505;&#12290;&#24847;&#35265;&#19968;&#36793;&#20498;&#12290;&#12290;&#24635;&#26377;&#36947;&#29702;&#30340;&#12290;&#25105;&#21487;&#27809;&#30475;&#21040;&#35780;&#23457;&#19968;&#36793;&#24847;&#35265;&#20498;&#21521;&#27784;&#38451;&#12290;&#12290;&#25104;&#37117;&#30340;&#26041;&#26696;&#30830;&#23454;&#27604;&#36739;&#21560;&#24341;&#20154;&#12290;&#12290;&#35780;&#23457;&#26102;&#20505;&#30340;&#25968;&#25454;&#20063;&#27604;&#27784;&#38451;&#30340;&#35201;&#39640;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#24403;&#28982;&#20320;&#21487;&#20197;&#35828;&#21561;&#27700;&#30340;&#12290;&#20294;&#26159;&#26576;&#20123;&#25968;&#25454;&#30830;&#23454;&#26159;&#30456;&#24403;&#20248;&#24322;&#12290;&#12290;&#26041;&#26696;&#20063;&#27604;&#37027;&#20010;&#19977;&#32764;&#38754;&#39046;&#20808;&#24456;&#22810;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#25152;&#20197;&#27784;&#38451;&#36755;&#20102;&#23601;&#26159;&#36755;&#20102;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#36755;&#20102;&#30340;&#35805;&#23601;&#32769;&#32769;&#23454;&#23454;&#30340;&#25226;&#33258;&#24049;&#25163;&#19978;&#30340;&#37027;&#20010;&#22810;&#29992;&#36884;&#26426;&#26426;&#25630;&#22909;&#12290;&#12290;




&#29616;&#22312;&#25105;&#20204;&#37117;&#26159;&#23398;&#32769;&#32654;&#12290;&#12290;&#25105;&#20204;&#22235;&#20195;&#26426;&#27969;&#31243;&#21644;&#32769;&#32654;&#24456;&#20687;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#19968;&#20123;&#23376;&#31995;&#32479;&#30456;&#24403;&#25509;&#36817;97&#24180;&#30340;F22&#12290;&#24403;&#28982;&#19981;&#25265;&#25324;&#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#31995;&#32479;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#25152;&#20197;&#32943;&#23450;&#35201;&#21152;&#20010;&#23383;&#27597;&#30340;&#12290;&#12290;&#20917;&#19988;&#32769;&#27611;&#23376;&#30340;T50&#39318;&#39134;&#20063;&#19981;&#36807;&#22914;&#27492;&#12290;&#12290;&#37117;&#19968;&#26679;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#29305;&#21035;&#26159;&#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#12290;&#12290;&#37117;&#26159;&#35013;&#32769;&#29256;&#30340;&#39318;&#39134;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;
&#21271;&#36793;&#30340;&#37027;&#20010;JJ&#12290;&#12290;&#20063;&#19968;&#26679;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#36867;&#19981;&#20102;&#30340;&#12290;&#12290;&#27605;&#31455;&#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#21644;&#21335;&#36793;&#30340;&#37117;&#29992;&#19968;&#26679;&#30340;&#22411;&#21495;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;


kkkddd125 &#21457;&#34920;&#20110; 2010-10-1 07:43
&#26082;&#28982;2&#23478;&#37117;&#26377;&#26032;jj&#65292;&#37027;&#22352;&#31561;&#32467;&#26524;&#21834;&#65292;&#21040;&#26102;&#20505;&#27604;&#27604;&#23601;&#33021;&#30475;&#20986;&#39640;&#19979;&#20102;&#65292;&#27604;&#22312;&#36825;&#25171;&#22068;&#20183;&#22909;&#22810;&#20102;

huzhigeng &#21457;&#34920;&#20110; 2010-10-2 08:39

&#26082;&#20351;&#20986;&#26469;&#20102;&#12290;&#12290;&#20063;&#19981;&#21487;&#33021;&#27604;&#20010;&#39640;&#20302;&#30340;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#25104;&#37117;&#30340;&#26159;&#23436;&#20840;&#31354;&#20248;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#32780;&#21271;&#36793;&#26159;&#22810;&#29992;&#36884;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#24403;&#28982;&#12290;&#31354;&#20248;&#20063;&#24456;&#19981;&#38169;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#20294;&#26159;&#26368;&#22909;&#19981;&#35201;&#21644;&#25104;&#37117;&#30340;&#21435;&#27604;&#31354;&#20248;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;






lizyu:
&#26412;&#26469;&#23601;&#26159;&#26576;&#27963;&#21160;&#32467;&#26463;&#21518;&#21152;&#30340;&#23383;&#27597;&#65292;&#24847;&#20041;&#23601;&#26159;&#31354;&#20891;&#21457;&#29616;&#26576;&#26041;&#38754;&#23454;&#22312;&#19981;&#22823;&#38752;&#35889;&#65292;&#20043;&#21518;&#30340;&#39033;&#30446;&#24403;&#28982;&#26159;&#26377;&#23383;&#27597;&#30340;&#21518;&#32493;&#20102;&#12290;&#29616;&#22312;&#24403;&#28982;&#26159;&#39034;&#21033;&#36827;&#34892;&#20102;&#65292;&#19981;&#36807;&#26159;&#25353;&#29031;&#20107;&#23454;&#19978;&#30340;&#35774;&#35745;&#26465;&#20214;&#36827;&#34892;&#30340;&#65292;&#33267;&#20110;&#25104;&#21697;&#21644;&#24403;&#21021;&#23459;&#20256;&#26377;&#20160;&#20040;&#24046;&#24322;&#21644;&#24046;&#36317;&#65292;&#37027;&#31561;&#20986;&#26469;&#21518;&#19981;&#23601;&#28165;&#26970;&#20102;&#65292;&#31561;&#30528;&#30475;&#30475;&#37027;&#20010;&#23383;&#27597;&#20160;&#20040;&#26102;&#20505;&#21462;&#28040;&#22909;&#20102;&#12290;

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&#20320;&#35201;&#26159;&#30693;&#36947;&#37027;&#27425;&#27963;&#21160;&#23601;&#24212;&#35813;&#30693;&#36947;&#37027;&#20010;&#23383;&#27597;&#24403;&#26102;&#21487;&#27809;&#26377;&#65292;&#21040;&#20043;&#21518;&#26576;&#35780;&#23457;&#21518;&#25165;&#20986;&#29616;&#30340;&#65292;&#22914;&#26524;&#30495;&#26159;&#35745;&#21010;&#22909;&#30340;&#21271;&#36793;&#37027;&#20010;&#24590;&#20040;&#27809;&#26377;&#65311;**&#30340;&#26102;&#20505;&#24590;&#20040;&#27809;&#26377;&#21602;&#65311;&#22914;&#26524;**&#26102;&#20505;&#23601;&#26377;&#21452;&#26041;&#30340;&#24773;&#20917;&#20250;&#23436;&#20840;&#21464;&#21270;&#20102;&#12290;

huzhigeng:&#36825;&#26041;&#38754;&#36824;&#26159;&#35201;&#34920;&#25196;&#19968;&#19979;601&#30340;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#38382;&#39064;&#33021;&#22815;&#22522;&#26412;&#19978;&#23436;&#28385;&#35299;&#20915;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;601&#21644;611&#19968;&#36215;&#36890;&#31435;&#21327;&#20316;&#12290;&#12290;&#23617;&#32929;&#25830;&#24471;&#20063;&#24046;&#19981;&#22810;&#20102;&#12290;&#21478;&#22806;&#12290;&#12290;&#21271;&#36793;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#19996;&#35199;&#20063;&#21040;&#20102;&#26368;&#20851;&#38190;&#30340;&#26102;&#20505;&#20102;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#36824;&#26377;&#21035;&#30340;&#22411;&#21495;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#37117;&#19981;&#30693;&#36947;601&#30340;&#20154;&#26159;&#24590;&#20040;&#24537;&#24471;&#36807;&#26469;&#65292;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#21453;&#27491;&#22870;&#37329;&#22823;&#22823;&#30340;&#26377;&#12290;&#12290;&#36234;&#22810;&#27963;&#12290;&#12290;&#36234;&#22909;&#12290;

&#36825;&#20010;&#23383;&#27597;&#21518;&#38754;&#32943;&#23450;&#36824;&#26159;&#35201;&#21462;&#28040;&#30340;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;

&#37027;&#27809;&#21150;&#27861;&#12290;&#29616;&#23454;&#30340;&#23601;&#26159;&#21271;&#36793;&#30340;&#22240;&#20026;&#21335;&#36793;&#30340;&#25226;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#19996;&#35199;&#30340;&#36827;&#24230;&#24930;&#19968;&#25293;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#25152;&#20197;&#20170;&#24180;&#20320;&#20063;&#30475;&#21040;&#20102;&#12290;&#12290;601&#24537;&#25104;&#20160;&#20040;&#26679;&#23376;&#12290;&#12290;&#36824;&#22909;&#12290;&#29616;&#22312;&#33258;&#24049;&#30340;&#19996;&#35199;&#20063;&#23436;&#25104;&#30340;&#24555;&#24046;&#19981;&#22810;&#20102;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#35828;&#23454;&#35805;&#12290;&#20170;&#24180;&#12290;&#12290;601&#30340;&#20154;&#31639;&#26159;&#32047;&#24808;&#20102;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#19968;&#20010;&#21448;&#19968;&#20010;&#37325;&#28857;&#22411;&#21495;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#27604;&#21335;&#36793;&#30340;&#22411;&#21495;&#22810;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#25152;&#20197;&#19981;&#35201;&#35828;&#21271;&#36793;&#27809;&#26377;&#22235;&#20195;&#12290;&#20063;&#19981;&#35201;&#35828;&#20160;&#20040;&#21271;&#36793;&#21482;&#20250;&#23665;&#23528;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#33267;&#20110;&#24456;&#22810;&#20154;&#35828;&#21271;&#36793;&#30340;&#37027;&#20010;&#19996;&#35199;&#26159;&#23665;&#23528;T50&#12290;&#36825;&#19981;&#26159;&#25199;&#35848;&#21527;&#12290;&#12290;601&#36824;&#29992;&#21435;&#23665;&#23528;&#27611;&#23376;&#37027;&#20010;&#39640;&#19981;&#25104;&#20302;&#19981;&#23601;&#30340;&#19996;&#35199;&#65311;&#65311;&#65311;


601&#25152;&#30340;&#37027;&#20010;&#22826;&#27880;&#37325;&#27668;&#21160;&#24615;&#33021;&#20102;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#24819;&#19981;&#20381;&#38752;&#25512;&#21147;&#30690;&#37327;&#26426;&#21160;&#24615;&#23601;&#33021;&#36798;&#21040;&#21464;&#24577;&#30340;&#22320;&#27493;&#12290;&#12290;&#24819;&#27861;&#26159;&#22909;&#12290;&#19981;&#36807;&#22826;&#36807;&#20110;&#26497;&#33268;&#20102;&#12290;&#12290;&#20498;&#26159;611&#30340;&#21644;&#32769;&#32654;&#30340;F22&#19968;&#26679;&#12290;&#12290;&#31616;&#21333;&#12290;&#39640;&#25928;&#12290;&#23454;&#29992;&#12290;&#12290;F22&#27668;&#21160;&#24182;&#19981;&#22797;&#26434;&#12290;&#20294;&#26159;&#20381;&#38752;&#22909;&#30340;&#27668;&#21160;&#12290;&#12290;&#22909;&#30340;&#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#29031;&#26679;&#26497;&#20026;&#20986;&#33394;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#35828;&#23454;&#35805;&#12290;&#12290;611&#21644;601&#30340;&#35774;&#35745;&#29702;&#24565;&#36824;&#26159;&#26377;&#24046;&#36317;&#30340;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#36825;&#20063;&#34920;&#29616;&#22312;&#26041;&#26696;&#19978;&#38754;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;

lizyu:&#27809;&#21150;&#27861;&#30340;&#20107;&#65292;601&#21507;&#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#20111;&#21507;&#30340;&#22826;&#22810;&#20102;&#12290;





&#20027;&#35201;&#26159;&#35828;&#36825;&#19996;&#35199;&#32456;&#20110;&#19981;&#22312;&#26159;&#20010;&#22270;&#32440;&#19978;&#30340;&#22771;&#23376;&#20102;&#65292;&#20272;&#35745;&#19981;&#20986;&#22823;&#24847;&#22806;&#24050;&#32463;&#20855;&#22791;&#19978;&#22825;&#30340;&#26465;&#20214;&#65292;&#33267;&#20110;&#20854;&#20182;&#30340;&#36824;&#24471;&#30475;&#12290;


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## xuwei

It proves that:China has two 5'th generation program.One Air superiority in Chengdu ,and another multi-purpose in Shenyang.All use Double big thrust engine,and will be developed almost the same time.

And judges Tend to Chengdu in the 5'th Heavy fighters bid,an important reason is the succesful of J10.


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## AVIAN

Mark Sien said:


> In MY opinion, Pakistan must avoid getting itself entangled with the Americans needlessly - and if that means avoiding arms-transactions, then so be it. Ideally the purchase of F-16s and Cobras should be considered as pure commercial transactions, but realistically speaking, I am sure they're closely tied to Washington's policy objectives and consequently Islamabad's subordination (i.e. following U.S orders). Until our relations with U.S. are strictly business/commercial, we should avoid them...



Very difficult to label any military transactions with US any commercial in nature, as long as Terror Camps running in Afganistan and NWFP of Pakistan, till then I don't see any point in getting commerical with military transaction. Basically, US can provide and pay the bill for the war on terror which it is getting it done with the help of Pakistan.


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## AVIAN

xuwei said:


> It proves that:China has two 5'th generation program.One Air superiority in Chengdu ,and another multi-purpose in Shenyang.All use Double big thrust engine,and will be developed almost the same time.
> 
> And judges Tend to Chengdu in the 5'th Heavy fighters bid,an important reason is the succesful of J10.




I beg to differ on this, as long as China maintain its secretive nature till then it is difficult to judge the role of in development fighter and can be termed as a Guesswork.


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## xuwei

AVIAN said:


> I beg to differ on this, as long as China maintain its secretive nature till then it is difficult to judge the role of in development fighter and can be termed as a Guesswork.



Time will prove it!
waiting for next year.
OY


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## Arsalan

will there be a clue to what FC-20 will be on the chines air show or we have to guess it only after analyzing the J-10b?

cant wait for that event!

regards!


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## TaimiKhan

AVIAN said:


> I beg to differ on this, as long as China maintain its secretive nature till then it is difficult to judge the role of in development fighter and can be termed as a Guesswork.



Used to be said about a lot of other Chinese weapons programs, but in the end we saw the real products. 

Their naval, AF & land forces, all have secretive nature so are the weapon platform R&D. We keep hearing about something and then we see it.

So its good you people are thinking it as guesswork, while they would keep developing it and then one day will show it to the world.

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## siegecrossbow

arsalanaslam123 said:


> will there be a clue to what FC-20 will be on the chines air show or we have to guess it only after analyzing the J-10b?
> 
> cant wait for that event!
> 
> regards!



I'm afraid we have to wait till after the J-10b is officially released. Perhaps they'll have a J-10b with Pakistani themed paintwork that will fly as a part of the "surprise" at Zhuhai this November?

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## Stealth_fighter

Is j-10b definitely gonna be equipped with AESA radar?


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## siegecrossbow

Stealth_fighter said:


> Is j-10b definitely gonna be equipped with AESA radar?



The J-10b, so far, is only speculated to carry a electronically scanned radar. There is a coversation that I translated earlier which stated that the AESA used on the J-10b will be enlarged and used on J-11b and the J-15. This will in turn serve as the foundation for the J-XX's radar.


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## AVIAN

siegecrossbow said:


> The J-10b, so far, is only speculated to carry a electronically scanned radar. There is a coversation that I translated earlier which stated that the AESA used on the J-10b will be enlarged and used on J-11b and the J-15. This will in turn serve as the foundation for the J-XX's radar.



If AESA according to your converstion is *used on * J-10B, J-11B, J-15 then how does it becomes Speculative in nature?


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## miads

Areesh said:


> I wish F16 would be the last American AC for PAF. No more American AC's please.



That's for sure. American won't sell their latest war machine fighter (F-35)to pk airforce and pk airforce can't afford to buy such high price/high tech airplane.


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## Arsalan

Stealth_fighter said:


> Is j-10b definitely gonna be equipped with AESA radar?



the ones PAF is intrested in and calls as FC-20 were reported to surely carry AESA radar.
we may also se TVC onboard however it is a bit pre mature to calim anything at this point of time.
dont quote me on this!

regards!


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## Arsalan

miads said:


> That's for sure. American won't sell their latest war machine fighter (F-35)to pk airforce and pk airforce can't afford to buy such high price/high tech airplane.



bro US dont only have F-3 5 and F-16 to offer!
with a buch of othet jets around the corner, we still hope that F-16z are the last top line fighter jets we are getting from US!


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## siegecrossbow

AVIAN said:


> If AESA according to your converstion is *used on * J-10B, J-11B, J-15 then how does it becomes Speculative in nature?



Sir the J-10B, at this point, is only speculated to carry AESA radar. In the conversation that I translated, which is not from an official source and therefore only speculations at this point, the OP stated that the J-10B will be the first Chinese fighter to carry AESA radar and latter models of the AESA radar used on the J-10B will be used on J-11B and J-15. Only time will tell whether his claims are correct or not.


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## Stealth_fighter




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## Stealth_fighter



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## Stealth_fighter




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## Stealth_fighter




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## Stealth_fighter

[/IMG]


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## Stealth_fighter

sorry i dont know how to post multiple pic in one post...ne1 up for help plz


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## Stealth_fighter

so far i couldnt find any pic of j-10 with refueling probe


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## siegecrossbow

Stealth_fighter said:


> sorry i dont know how to post multiple pic in one post...ne1 up for help plz



You just post links to multiple pictures in one post. Did you hotlink them?


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## Donatello

Is there any other news of FC-20? Like the status....etc.

Shrouded in secrecy for so long....better be cooking something good.


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## xuwei



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## SBD-3

hay siegecrossbow, i need your help on this bro
????-????-J-10B????


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## Jungibaaz

hasnain0099 said:


> hay siegecrossbow, i need your help on this bro
> ????-????-J-10B????



here's what is says bro...


Performance Analysis of J-10B

J-10B test drive the latest pictures of the gray paint is out. J-10B should have several states, we now see is one of them. This type may be related with the export model of Pakistan, but it is our J-10B.


One. Significant change

J-10B looks the most obvious change is the inlet to DSI ("clam" type) (no inlet boundary layer separated Road) inlet.

With the original dual shock system adjustable inlet than 3, DSI can play to reduce weight, increase stealth performance, increase intake efficiency and reduce costs, increase reliability and so on. As a type all airspace of the air fighter, J-10 has a relatively high speed at height requirements, for the use of a complex wave system of binary 3 adjustable inlet, it has a ratio of SU-27, F- 16 high-altitude high-speed capability better, which is the J-10 has just made public the allegation that he was one of the reasons 3.5 generation fighter. But such large weight of the inlet structure; order to strengthen the structure of the additional six ribs on the destructive effects of stealth also greatly criticized by unscrupulous people, although the 3rd generation, 3.5 generation aircraft to strengthen tendons are common. Lighter than conventional inlet DSI intake, compared to the original inlet, greatly reduced structural weight. J-10 SU-27 has good than a lot of mobility, the only regret is not big enough engine thrust as the reasons, the thrust-weight ratio, stability has been the subject of suspicion hovering ability. DSI will undoubtedly increase the adoption of J-10B thrust-weight ratio, stability, performance, and the whole machine circled mobility plays a significant role. Plus other benefits, DSI performance of J-10B obvious effect. DSI as a 4-generation technology, the FC-1 had just appeared on the altar in the army caused a huge stir in the J-10B is to be applied widely expected.

J-10B Another obvious change is the nose radome. The radome is the junction with the head tilted backwards slash, it is learned that that it is equipped with AESA (active phased array radar.)

J-10 is the original equipment, flat-panel slot array radar 1473, are 3-generation technology; AESA is the 4th generation technology. AESA longer detection range, higher accuracy, reflecting the faster, more powerful processing and more objective, more reliable; with more updated using function; use some technology, stealth stronger. AESA use of aircraft radar in terms of the Chinese and the European stand on the same starting line. Under the photos show, J-10B radar is smaller in diameter than the original, which may be due to the use of AESA, it do not then the diameter of the original so much. Smaller diameter reduces wind resistance head, help to improve the flight speed. Another change is the J-10B from the conical head into a flat circle, in order to play in front of the inlet air into the pre-compression. Head slightly down, to improve vision.
Nose droop angle of attack increased, improving maneuverability.

Photos from the front view, J-10B HUD diffraction facelift, the installation of the IRST (photoelectric detection system.)

Diffraction HUD, also known as wide-angle holographic HUD. Compared with the refraction of HUD and its larger field of view (in favor of weapons targeting and night flying), location perspective rate, a higher reflectivity characters.

Optical passive detection technology is the trend of the early 21st century, whether the Air Force or the Navy also. Because passive detection can avoid radar and exposed to the whereabouts of their launch to avoid arouse his suspicions. The early 21st century not only the infrared detection device to be able to ascertain the location, but also to thermal imaging, in addition to increasing the performance of enemy detection precision, increased accuracy of infrared missiles, fighter planes have also made an unexpected self-defense capabilities - air to air interceptor missile. In fact the optical detection device said to be the trend of the early 21st century is very sorry his friend north - Russia - as early as the 1980s, SU-27 and MiG-29, the photoelectric detector has become the necessary equipment, the West until the new generation of fighters (the fourth generation of the West) came into use, one hand may be the former East Germany after the reunification of Germany, MiG-29 to bring the European countries so that attention to the impact of the technology. It is said that the installation of this type of IRST "can track stealth aircraft at 60KM, 30KM to 50KM distance to identify the enemy has to show enemy formation, the number of enemy statistics, to provide guidance on the ability of the missile"; if the allegations are true , that is the world's advanced level.

It can be seen from the photos, J-10B may use a composite rack.

Composite rack mount with a mount point in the same capacity of more than pieces of weapons, can significantly increase the number of weapons mounted on the ground attack role is very big capabilities. J-10 as an air-superiority fighter, although it has a strong potential for ground attack, but before the performance is not obvious. J-10B's use of composite pylons that its formal conversion to multi-purpose fighter.

It is reported that J-10B machine increases the fuel tank, increasing the wing area, there are claims that an increase of 4%.

J-10B is the tail of another significant change in the installation of the electronic module. This shows that the greatly enhanced its electronic warfare capability.

The other is the horizontal tail cutting tip, airspeed control cancellation changed. F-10B cut tail tip, ventral fin cutting tip, useful to improve the aircraft's high-speed performance. Not much to do here reviewed.

Had always been questioned J-10B "DSI intake," the change, fearing it will affect the J-10B high-speed performance, it seems that this is due to ignorance and excess. J-10B's "DSI inlet" to the design point on the 2.0MH, canard fly-in the 4th generation system an excellent balance of high / low-speed performance. Actual flight test results show that, "J-10B high-altitude high-speed better than the J-10A, mobility and better quality", which in the whole flight envelope (0 ~ 2.3MH) all stages have better acceleration performance and stable hovering performance improvement is gratifying.


II. Stealth Performance

Alleged use of integrated stealth technology, J-10B radar reflection area ratio of J-10A reduce an order of magnitude. In this case, the stealth performance and double the wind (two types of Europe's most advanced fighter) is similar to radar reflection area of less than 1.


III. Avionics and weapons systems

Although the J-10B enhance the aerodynamic performance of the other people surprises, but some people say, J-10B real highlight is its avionics and weapons upgrade.

J-10B, a fourth generation fighter avionics test machine, the avionics system is quite good. Someone said: "In fact, even on the AESA 10B is not worth very excited - the other avionics and pace of change is much more than a plane can be filled with AESA. 10B avionics architecture and performance of a species degree is the reference Po F-22 columns of the standards, such as an independent flight control, fire control, etc. replaced by a new generation of integrated CIP (general information processor). SU-35 is closer to the Western standards, the natural can be clearly compared. But now the situation seems, SU-35 is three generations of Western standards of late-type level. "

Aircraft performance based on evaluation of the now popular formula:

Overall performance = velocity × mobility (square) × Avionics (cubic) × Weapon (four square)

J-10B overall avionics upgrade (on behalf of the nearly 3.5 to nearly 4 generations), will bring his quality to enhance combat capability.

Well weapons systems, in addition to precision strikes all kinds of ammunition, four generations in the remote, short-range air to air missiles should be the same subject. Four generations of fighting to be heard before the missile to equip the rumors.


IV. Future Development

Someone Language: In fact, the modified J10 will always exist, one is to increase (re-4 (5) service before) the needs of the Air Force combat strength, the second is to share part of the re-4 (5) Development of the risk of re-4 (5 ) is an independent research funding, J10 of the modification is independent of funding, J10 of the modification to the 4th generation (5) approximation, sharing part of the re-4 (5) the risks of scientific research and experiment on the re-4 (5) development of play multiplier effect, the ultimate vest will spend an improved version of the standard 4-generation (5) in the single machine supporting avionics. 


Five. Conclusion

With the J-10B, we are no longer the envy of double wind. In addition to the engine. . .

Is uncertain whether the current use of the J-10B "flying fire push" integration technology, but the J-10B will be used.

J-10B is not clear now the engine experimental aircraft equipment or the original AL-31FN, may be improved with a greater thrust. J-10B is scheduled standard configuration should be "too much to change the line" engine, thrust 142 KN. If the J-10B is equipped with more thrust, "so the line change." . .

Unfortunately, even the "Taihang", now also still problematic. "Taihang change" and to drag the progress of the.

Of course, we You Liangshou preparation, the Russian AL-31FN M1, or said that we in Russia, the chickens lay eggs 99M2, can meet the requirements. However, we continue to scale the engine but also on imports of you. . .

We can only hope the dawn companies want them to learn, practical and strict, the pace to catch up.

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## SBD-3

Jungibaaz said:


> here's what is says bro...
> 
> 
> Performance Analysis of J-10B
> 
> J-10B test drive the latest pictures of the gray paint is out. J-10B should have several states, we now see is one of them. This type may be related with the export model of Pakistan, but it is our J-10B.
> 
> 
> One. Significant change
> 
> J-10B looks the most obvious change is the inlet to DSI ("clam" type) (no inlet boundary layer separated Road) inlet.
> 
> With the original dual shock system adjustable inlet than 3, DSI can play to reduce weight, increase stealth performance, increase intake efficiency and reduce costs, increase reliability and so on. As a type all airspace of the air fighter, J-10 has a relatively high speed at height requirements, for the use of a complex wave system of binary 3 adjustable inlet, it has a ratio of SU-27, F- 16 high-altitude high-speed capability better, which is the J-10 has just made public the allegation that he was one of the reasons 3.5 generation fighter. But such large weight of the inlet structure; order to strengthen the structure of the additional six ribs on the destructive effects of stealth also greatly criticized by unscrupulous people, although the 3rd generation, 3.5 generation aircraft to strengthen tendons are common. Lighter than conventional inlet DSI intake, compared to the original inlet, greatly reduced structural weight. J-10 SU-27 has good than a lot of mobility, the only regret is not big enough engine thrust as the reasons, the thrust-weight ratio, stability has been the subject of suspicion hovering ability. DSI will undoubtedly increase the adoption of J-10B thrust-weight ratio, stability, performance, and the whole machine circled mobility plays a significant role. Plus other benefits, DSI performance of J-10B obvious effect. DSI as a 4-generation technology, the FC-1 had just appeared on the altar in the army caused a huge stir in the J-10B is to be applied widely expected.
> 
> J-10B Another obvious change is the nose radome. The radome is the junction with the head tilted backwards slash, it is learned that that it is equipped with AESA (active phased array radar.)
> 
> J-10 is the original equipment, flat-panel slot array radar 1473, are 3-generation technology; AESA is the 4th generation technology. AESA longer detection range, higher accuracy, reflecting the faster, more powerful processing and more objective, more reliable; with more updated using function; use some technology, stealth stronger. AESA use of aircraft radar in terms of the Chinese and the European stand on the same starting line. Under the photos show, J-10B radar is smaller in diameter than the original, which may be due to the use of AESA, it do not then the diameter of the original so much. Smaller diameter reduces wind resistance head, help to improve the flight speed. Another change is the J-10B from the conical head into a flat circle, in order to play in front of the inlet air into the pre-compression. Head slightly down, to improve vision.
> Nose droop angle of attack increased, improving maneuverability.
> 
> Photos from the front view, J-10B HUD diffraction facelift, the installation of the IRST (photoelectric detection system.)
> 
> Diffraction HUD, also known as wide-angle holographic HUD. Compared with the refraction of HUD and its larger field of view (in favor of weapons targeting and night flying), location perspective rate, a higher reflectivity characters.
> 
> Optical passive detection technology is the trend of the early 21st century, whether the Air Force or the Navy also. Because passive detection can avoid radar and exposed to the whereabouts of their launch to avoid arouse his suspicions. The early 21st century not only the infrared detection device to be able to ascertain the location, but also to thermal imaging, in addition to increasing the performance of enemy detection precision, increased accuracy of infrared missiles, fighter planes have also made an unexpected self-defense capabilities - air to air interceptor missile. In fact the optical detection device said to be the trend of the early 21st century is very sorry his friend north - Russia - as early as the 1980s, SU-27 and MiG-29, the photoelectric detector has become the necessary equipment, the West until the new generation of fighters (the fourth generation of the West) came into use, one hand may be the former East Germany after the reunification of Germany, MiG-29 to bring the European countries so that attention to the impact of the technology. It is said that the installation of this type of IRST "can track stealth aircraft at 60KM, 30KM to 50KM distance to identify the enemy has to show enemy formation, the number of enemy statistics, to provide guidance on the ability of the missile"; if the allegations are true , that is the world's advanced level.
> 
> It can be seen from the photos, J-10B may use a composite rack.
> 
> Composite rack mount with a mount point in the same capacity of more than pieces of weapons, can significantly increase the number of weapons mounted on the ground attack role is very big capabilities. J-10 as an air-superiority fighter, although it has a strong potential for ground attack, but before the performance is not obvious. J-10B's use of composite pylons that its formal conversion to multi-purpose fighter.
> 
> It is reported that J-10B machine increases the fuel tank, increasing the wing area, there are claims that an increase of 4%.
> 
> J-10B is the tail of another significant change in the installation of the electronic module. This shows that the greatly enhanced its electronic warfare capability.
> 
> The other is the horizontal tail cutting tip, airspeed control cancellation changed. F-10B cut tail tip, ventral fin cutting tip, useful to improve the aircraft's high-speed performance. Not much to do here reviewed.
> 
> Had always been questioned J-10B "DSI intake," the change, fearing it will affect the J-10B high-speed performance, it seems that this is due to ignorance and excess. J-10B's "DSI inlet" to the design point on the 2.0MH, canard fly-in the 4th generation system an excellent balance of high / low-speed performance. Actual flight test results show that, "J-10B high-altitude high-speed better than the J-10A, mobility and better quality", which in the whole flight envelope (0 ~ 2.3MH) all stages have better acceleration performance and stable hovering performance improvement is gratifying.
> 
> 
> II. Stealth Performance
> 
> Alleged use of integrated stealth technology, J-10B radar reflection area ratio of J-10A reduce an order of magnitude. In this case, the stealth performance and double the wind (two types of Europe's most advanced fighter) is similar to radar reflection area of less than 1.
> 
> 
> III. Avionics and weapons systems
> 
> Although the J-10B enhance the aerodynamic performance of the other people surprises, but some people say, J-10B real highlight is its avionics and weapons upgrade.
> 
> J-10B, a fourth generation fighter avionics test machine, the avionics system is quite good. Someone said: "In fact, even on the AESA 10B is not worth very excited - the other avionics and pace of change is much more than a plane can be filled with AESA. 10B avionics architecture and performance of a species degree is the reference Po F-22 columns of the standards, such as an independent flight control, fire control, etc. replaced by a new generation of integrated CIP (general information processor). SU-35 is closer to the Western standards, the natural can be clearly compared. But now the situation seems, SU-35 is three generations of Western standards of late-type level. "
> 
> Aircraft performance based on evaluation of the now popular formula:
> 
> Overall performance = velocity × mobility (square) × Avionics (cubic) × Weapon (four square)
> 
> J-10B overall avionics upgrade (on behalf of the nearly 3.5 to nearly 4 generations), will bring his quality to enhance combat capability.
> 
> Well weapons systems, in addition to precision strikes all kinds of ammunition, four generations in the remote, short-range air to air missiles should be the same subject. Four generations of fighting to be heard before the missile to equip the rumors.
> 
> 
> IV. Future Development
> 
> Someone Language: In fact, the modified J10 will always exist, one is to increase (re-4 (5) service before) the needs of the Air Force combat strength, the second is to share part of the re-4 (5) Development of the risk of re-4 (5 ) is an independent research funding, J10 of the modification is independent of funding, J10 of the modification to the 4th generation (5) approximation, sharing part of the re-4 (5) the risks of scientific research and experiment on the re-4 (5) development of play multiplier effect, the ultimate vest will spend an improved version of the standard 4-generation (5) in the single machine supporting avionics.
> 
> 
> Five. Conclusion
> 
> With the J-10B, we are no longer the envy of double wind. In addition to the engine. . .
> 
> Is uncertain whether the current use of the J-10B "flying fire push" integration technology, but the J-10B will be used.
> 
> J-10B is not clear now the engine experimental aircraft equipment or the original AL-31FN, may be improved with a greater thrust. J-10B is scheduled standard configuration should be "too much to change the line" engine, thrust 142 KN. If the J-10B is equipped with more thrust, "so the line change." . .
> 
> Unfortunately, even the "Taihang", now also still problematic. "Taihang change" and to drag the progress of the.
> 
> Of course, we You Liangshou preparation, the Russian AL-31FN M1, or said that we in Russia, the chickens lay eggs 99M2, can meet the requirements. However, we continue to scale the engine but also on imports of you. . .
> 
> We can only hope the dawn companies want them to learn, practical and strict, the pace to catch up.


but this is google translate....Siegecrossbow can translate it into a better one if he does


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## conworldus

Basically, the article saying that with J-10B you no longer need to be envy of the likes of Typhoon.

The only unsure thing is whether it will keep using the Russian engine of the improved version of WS10. The WS10 imrpoved has 142kn thrust, and should have resolved lot of quality issues of AL-31FN. (In China J-10 has crashed because of engine failure).

Once the engine issue is resolved the J-10B will be every bit as powerful as any of the multirole fighters in the world.

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## Super Falcon

J 10B is a best Multi Role Fighter Jet Avaialable in the world wth F 16 Fighting Falcon infact J 10 is more Agile in air than its other Compitattor F 16


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## SBD-3

Super Falcon said:


> J 10B is a best Multi Role Fighter Jet Avaialable in the world wth F 16 Fighting Falcon infact J 10 is more Agile in air than its other Compitattor F 16



partially incorrect, while the J-10B has better A2G than J-10A yet the development focus was on enhancing A2A so J-10B is more of a AS fighter not a true omnirole fighter like Rafael


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## BATMAN

^^J10B have improved ECM, IRST, various other targeting pods, AESA, lighter weight, more hardpoints, improved cockpit, A2A refueling, more stealthy and WS10A.

It is definately better than J-10.. why did you think other wise?


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## Stealth_fighter

let the j-10b fly .........we'll get the ans


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## TOPGUN

I must say i just love the shape of the fc-20 looks damn sexy


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## siegecrossbow

Damn conworldus beat me to it. If you need specific translations on parts of the article I will assist.


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## SQ8

siegecrossbow said:


> Damn conworldus beat me to it. If you need specific translations on parts of the article I will assist.



Please.. 
What does chicken lay the eggs mean here.. or is it a Chicken laying an egg.
At the same time..what is being said here..
_J-10B, a fourth generation fighter avionics test machine, the avionics system is quite good. Someone said: "In fact, even on the AESA 10B is not worth very excited - the other avionics and pace of change is much more than a plane can be filled with AESA. 10B avionics architecture and performance of a species degree is the reference Po F-22 columns of the standards, such as an independent flight control, fire control, etc. replaced by a new generation of integrated CIP (general information processor). SU-35 is closer to the Western standards, the natural can be clearly compared. But now the situation seems, SU-35 is three generations of Western standards of late-type level. _


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## gypgypgyp

santro said:


> Please..
> What does chicken lay the eggs mean here.. or is it a Chicken laying an egg.
> At the same time..what is being said here..
> _J-10B, a fourth generation fighter avionics test machine, the avionics system is quite good. Someone said: "In fact, even on the AESA 10B is not worth very excited - the other avionics and pace of change is much more than a plane can be filled with AESA. 10B avionics architecture and performance of a species degree is the reference Po F-22 columns of the standards, such as an independent flight control, fire control, etc. replaced by a new generation of integrated CIP (general information processor). SU-35 is closer to the Western standards, the natural can be clearly compared. But now the situation seems, SU-35 is three generations of Western standards of late-type level. _



&#21487;&#24796;&#30340;&#26159;&#21363;&#20351;&#26159;&#22826;&#34892;&#65292;&#29616;&#22312;&#20063;&#36824;&#26159;&#38382;&#39064;&#37325;&#37325;&#12290;&#22826;&#34892;&#25913;&#65292;&#35201;&#25302;&#36827;&#24230;&#20102;&#12290;

&#24403;&#28982;&#65292;&#25105;&#20204;&#20063;&#26377;&#20004;&#25163;&#20934;&#22791;&#65292;&#20420;&#32599;&#26031;&#30340;AL-31FN M1&#25110;&#32773;&#25454;&#35828;&#25105;&#20204;&#22312;&#20420;&#32599;&#26031;&#20511;&#40481;&#19979;&#34507;&#30340;99M2&#65292;&#37117;&#21487;&#20197;&#36798;&#21040;&#35201;&#27714;&#12290;&#20294;&#25105;&#20204;&#30340;&#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#36824;&#35201;&#38752;&#19981;&#26029;&#22823;&#35268;&#27169;&#36827;&#21475;&#21527;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;

It means


WS-10 upgrading plan is behind schedule, and some technical issue still unsolved.

But PLAAF get a plan B for J-10B. The engine may use AL-31FN M1 or 99M2. Both of them suitable for J-10B


Chicken and egg from "&#20511;&#40481;&#19979;&#34507;"

means "borrow a chicken from others and grab a eggs"

the this case, it mean PLAAF borrow the design insitution(chicken) from rassian to make a engine(egg) suitable for J-10 requirement.

Sum all up is J-10B will have a much more powerful engine, if WS-10 upgrading plan is delayed, AL-31FNM1 or 99M2(or higher version) will equip J-10B.

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## gypgypgyp

santro said:


> Please..
> What does chicken lay the eggs mean here.. or is it a Chicken laying an egg.
> At the same time..what is being said here..
> _J-10B, a fourth generation fighter avionics test machine, the avionics system is quite good. Someone said: "In fact, even on the AESA 10B is not worth very excited - the other avionics and pace of change is much more than a plane can be filled with AESA. 10B avionics architecture and performance of a species degree is the reference Po F-22 columns of the standards, such as an independent flight control, fire control, etc. replaced by a new generation of integrated CIP (general information processor). SU-35 is closer to the Western standards, the natural can be clearly compared. But now the situation seems, SU-35 is three generations of Western standards of late-type level. _



Long para generally say.

J-10B as a test machine of 4th generation fighter, its avionics is outstanding. Someone comment" install ASAE on J-10B havs nothing to exciting. The major advancement of J-10B is avionics. In some aspect, J-10B's avionic structure and performance goal is aiming on "Pave pillar" project, such as independent flight control, fire control, etc. replaced by a new generation of integrated CIP (general information processor). SU-35 is forwarding to west standard, it is clear comparasion. Base on our view, Su-35 is on a late 3rd generation level.


Red word is copy/paste, too technical for me.


From Chinese reading, I understand that in some area, J-10B avionics has same structure with F-22, which called "Pave Pillar", and performance goal is aiming on F-22 in some aspect.



BWT USAAF is working on "Pave Pale" project now. The Pave pillar was finished at 1980s, by now applied on F-22 and RAH-66

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## SBD-3

gypgypgyp said:


> Long para generally say.
> 
> J-10B as a test machine of 4th generation fighter, its avionics is outstanding. Someone comment" install ASAE on J-10B havs nothing to exciting. The major advancement of J-10B is avionics. In some aspect, J-10B's avionic structure and performance goal is aiming on "Pave pillar" project, such as independent flight control, fire control, etc. replaced by a new generation of integrated CIP (general information processor). SU-35 is forwarding to west standard, it is clear comparasion. Base on our view, Su-35 is on a late 3rd generation level.
> 
> 
> Red word is copy/paste, too technical for me.
> 
> 
> From Chinese reading, I understand that in some area, J-10B avionics has same structure with F-22, which called "Pave Pillar", and performance goal is aiming on F-22 in some aspect.
> 
> 
> 
> BWT USAAF is working on "Pave Pale" project now. The Pave pillar was finished at 1980s, by now applied on F-22 and RAH-66



yeah J-10B will incorporate a holographic hud....
for those who are not familiar with the concept, here is a simple video about the concept




 
for CIP


> Raptor 'Common Integrated Processor'
> The Hughes-built Common Integrated Processor (CIP) is the 'brain' of the integrated avionics system  a system which has some unusual characteristics.
> 
> For instance, the F-22 has no radios, no navigation gear like TACAN or global positioning system or instrument landing system and no radar, in the traditional sense.
> 
> Rather than radar, the CIP, which is about the size of a oversized bread box, supports all signal and data processing for all sensors and mission avionics.
> 
> Reprogramming ability
> The CIP modules have the ability to emulate any of the electronic functions through automatic reprogramming. For example, if the CIP module that is acting as radio dies, one of the other modules will automatically reload the radio program and take over the radio function.
> 
> This approach to avionics makes the equipment extremely tolerant to combat damage as well as flexible from a design upgrade point of view.
> 
> The aircraft's avionics architecture remains flexible to accept future upgrades without having to design and retrofit new hardware to the fighter.
> 
> Expandability
> There are two CIPs in each F-22, with 66 module slots per CIP. They have identical backplanes and all of the F-22's processing requirements can be handled by only seven different types of processors. Currently, 19 of 66 slots in CIP 1 and 22 of 66 slots in CIP are open and available for expansion.
> 
> Each module is limited by design to only 75 percent of its capability, so the F-22 has 30 percent growth capability with no change to the existing equipment. There is space, power and cooling provisions in the aircraft now for a third CIP, so the requirement for a 200 percent avionics growth capability in the F-22 can be easily met.
> 
> There is coordinated plan for technology growth that will help keep the CIP at state-of-the-art levels. As electronics continue to get smaller and more powerful, it is conceivable that there could be 300 percent increase in avionics capability.


If J-10B is able to get a good AESA, then it means ECM capability is also enhanced manifold as AESA can also be used effectively for Jamming incoming missiles and SEAD operations. So a lot of goodies are coming PAF way with J-10B/FC-20

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## SQ8

Fairly irrelevant video.. if you don't mind my saying it. 
this is a holographic Hud..nothing too fancy.. has more to do with easing depth perception and strain than anything else.





_A holographic HUD simply uses a holographic optical element or HOE as the combiner. This is a specialized diffraction grating that can both combine and collimate. HOEs can be made very wavelength specific to allow the maximum amount of light from the forward field of view to pass through to the pilot. A holographic HUD can deliver a larger field of view for a given weight than can a HUD based solely on lenses and/or mirrors._

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## SBD-3

santro said:


> Fairly irrelevant video.. if you don't mind my saying it.
> this is a holographic Hud..nothing too fancy.. has more to do with easing depth perception and strain than anything else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _A holographic HUD simply uses a holographic optical element or HOE as the combiner. This is a specialized diffraction grating that can both combine and collimate. HOEs can be made very wavelength specific to allow the maximum amount of light from the forward field of view to pass through to the pilot. A holographic HUD can deliver a larger field of view for a given weight than can a HUD based solely on lenses and/or mirrors._



exactly, Thats exactly what i was trying to say, The video posted was for the members who were novice to this concept. The ideas is that J-10B will facilitate the pilot by lessening his workload and flexible field of view, leading to greater situational awareness and combat effectiveness


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## Jungibaaz

it is possible said:


> PAF is still stuck in 3rd gen or 4th gen fighters.



Firstly Thank you for trolling 

yes we are, but 3rd gen are being replaced by 4th gen jf-17 and J-10B/FC-20 is comparable to a 4.5gen fighter, and as for 5th gen; no other country apart from the US has operational fifth gen fighters.

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## SMC

it is possible said:


> PAF is still stuck in 3rd gen or 4th gen fighters.



Which 5th generation fighter does bharat have?

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## SBD-3

it is possible said:


> PAF is still stuck in 3rd gen or 4th gen fighters.


Is it necessary to poke your nose in every discussion without having sane reason???? I am sick of such in jumps

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## SBD-3

Furthermore, Given the timeframe of FC-20 and the recent developments on J-10B, I suspect that JFT III will certainly incorporate all these techs as by that time
1) PAF would have FC-20 by ToPT as indicated by Defence Minister.
2) These techs would have been reasonably matured 
So if FC-20 goes smooth, we may see a indigenous 4.5++ fighter around 2017 onwards


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## Jungibaaz

hasnain0099 said:


> Furthermore, Given the timeframe of FC-20 and the recent developments on J-10B, I suspect that JFT III will certainly incorporate all these techs as by that time
> 1) PAF would have FC-20 by ToPT as indicated by Defence Minister.
> 2) These techs would have been reasonably matured
> So if FC-20 goes smooth, we may see a indigenous* 4.5++* fighter around 2017 onwards



Part in bold....

Are you saying that it will be better then a 4.5 gen fighter??


----------



## SBD-3

Jungibaaz said:


> Part in bold....
> 
> Are you saying that it will be better then a 4.5 gen fighter??



very likely as uptil 2017 PAF would have also gained significant experience of mastering the "first step" 5G technologies (in FC-20 project). There is every chance that China would also have essentially developed highly significant (if not complete) 5th Gen systems and engine techologies by then so there is a very high probability that PAF will try to incorporate those techs in JFT UB (Ultimate Block) in order to enhance its combat and operational capabilities.

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## SBD-3

btw....any new pictures of J-10B/BZ???? Chinese bros plz


----------



## siegecrossbow

Documentary on the Chengdu J-10. Significant since footages of the first test flight were included:

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## TaimiKhan

siegecrossbow said:


> Documentary on the Chengdu J-10. Significant since footages of the first test flight were included:
> 
> YouTube - ????? 720HD?????????? 1/4 ???? The Road to J-10



This one video seems more like to be about JF-17


----------



## siegecrossbow

TaimiKhan said:


> This one video seems more like to be about JF-17



No sir I assure you that it is about the J-10. The JF-17 is mentioned since it too is a mile stone in Chinese aviation.

Here is the flight footage of J-10's first flight in 98. Notice the green uniforms that the PLAAF wore back then.

YouTube - ãé¾è¾ä¸æ¹ 720HDè§é¢ãï¼äºï¼çé¾å²å¤© 2/4 æ­¼åä¹è·¯ The Road to J-10


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## TaimiKhan

siegecrossbow said:


> No sir I assure you that it is about the J-10. The JF-17 is mentioned since it too is a mile stone in Chinese aviation.
> 
> Here is the flight footage of J-10's first flight in 98. Notice the green uniforms that the PLAAF wore back then.
> 
> YouTube - ãé¾è¾ä¸æ¹ 720HDè§é¢ãï¼äºï¼çé¾å²å¤© 2/4 æ*¼åä¹è·¯ The Road to J-10



haahaahahahahah, don't take it seriously bro, i was just kidding, i had previously seen the videos too and even currently seeing them right now, of J-7s too. 

Chinese have been covering a lot of milestones lately


----------



## SBD-3

any other latest leaks about J-10BZ???


----------



## Stealth_fighter




----------



## Stealth_fighter




----------



## razgriz19

Stealth_fighter said:


>



the first one is definetly not a j-10 cockpit!


----------



## SBD-3

Yeah...I agree with you as there is no mean of verification....and other pics are also a mix of J-10A and J-10B initial leaks


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## AVIAN

hasnain0099 said:


> very likely as uptil 2017 PAF would have also gained significant experience of mastering the "first step" 5G technologies (in FC-20 project). There is every chance that China would also have essentially developed highly significant (if not complete) 5th Gen systems and engine techologies by then so there is a very high probability that PAF will try to incorporate those techs in JFT UB (Ultimate Block) in order to enhance its combat and operational capabilities.



What logic have you applied to your post to make it any meaningful. Uptil 2017 and gaining some skills in 5th Generation tech is nothing but meaningless trait. There is no chance that China would have manage to develop certain tech to represent their readiness for 5th generation tech, perhaps you may shed more light on this by providing some links and source.


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## Stealth_fighter

the 1st 1 supposed to be a j-10 cockpit...by the way y u disagree sir?just curious


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## siegecrossbow

Stealth_fighter said:


> the 1st 1 supposed to be a j-10 cockpit...by the way y u disagree sir?just curious



I think he was referring to the plane with a canted tail on display on one of the LCD screens.

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## General General

Don't know how much weight this holds:





I like the new J-10B a whole lot better than the J-10A. The A model didn't radiate class or sophistication at all. I mean the intake had bits of metal holding on to the fuselage.


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## SBD-3

AVIAN said:


> What logic have you applied to your post to make it any meaningful. Uptil 2017 and gaining some skills in 5th Generation tech is nothing but meaningless trait. There is no chance that China would have manage to develop certain tech to represent their readiness for 5th generation tech, perhaps you may shed more light on this by providing some links and source.



If you go to previous posts, the current leaks suggest that F-10B is serving as a test bed for 5th generation technologies like DSI,CIP, Wide Holographic Huds and AESA. effectively this means that China has started progression on 5th Gen platforms as these developments are a product of nothing but a 5th Gen program.The only possible hurdle IMHO is the engine, but one Chinese poster did indicate that Like PAK-FA and YF-22, the F-XX prototype will be powered by a more matured engine rather than a new product (WS-15). As FC-20 will come later than F-10B, the most probable reason for this delay is that PAF will like the F-10B systems to mature. So FC-20 is likely to Incorporate prodominently Chinese matured systems as West wont be able to offer much on this except Spectra protection suit or a more matured AESA and engine.(like vixen 1000) so in all FC-20 will have almost 80 to 90% Chinese system (personal estimates) and rest may be western engines. PAF will not likely to implement local gadgets for JFT I and II on FC-20 because the reported Chinese systems are likely to be far superior than local systems produced by then and learning on these, PAC will likely to master and implement them on JFT UB which will be coming around 2017-2020. but these are just my personal views, open for discussion. may be siegecrossbow can grace us with his thoughts on my hypothesis

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## SBD-3

General General said:


> Don't know how much weight this holds:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like the new J-10B a whole lot better than the J-10A. The A model didn't radiate class or sophistication at all. I mean the intake had bits of metal holding on to the fuselage.



FYI, this "not at all sophisticated" A model busted J-11s of PLAAF repeatedly in mock fights.


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## siegecrossbow

General General said:


> Don't know how much weight this holds:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like the new J-10B a whole lot better than the J-10A. The A model didn't radiate class or sophistication at all. I mean the intake had bits of metal holding on to the fuselage.



What the hell is J-10C?


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## Storm Force

_FYI, this "not at all sophisticated" A model busted J-11s of PLAAF repeatedly in mock fights. _

Is that Why Even Today PLAAF is planning to induct upto 500 flankers

300 new versions J11B & J13 

Single engined Fighters rarely beat a twin engined fighter if they are from the same genere.

Only reason Air forces buy single engined planes is to reduce cost.


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## SBD-3

Storm Force said:


> _FYI, this "not at all sophisticated" A model busted J-11s of PLAAF repeatedly in mock fights. _
> 
> Is that Why Even Today PLAAF is planning to induct upto 500 flankers
> 
> 300 new versions J11B & J13
> 
> Single engined Fighters rarely beat a twin engined fighter if they are from the same genere.
> 
> Only reason Air forces buy single engined planes is to reduce cost.



May be siegecrossbow can update you so as to why J-10 was able to beat J-11s

---------- Post added at 12:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 AM ----------




siegecrossbow said:


> What the hell is J-10C?



may be he is referring to super-10


----------



## WAQAS119

General General said:


> Don't know how much weight this holds:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like the new J-10B a whole lot better than the J-10A. The A model didn't radiate class or sophistication at all. I mean the intake had bits of metal holding on to the fuselage.



From where you got this comparison chart?


----------



## WAQAS119

Storm Force said:


> Single engined Fighters rarely beat a twin engined fighter if they are from the same genere.
> 
> Only reason Air forces buy single engined planes is to reduce cost.



Thank you Sir for your super expert opinion!!!!! 
BTW nice try....!


----------



## Jungibaaz

Storm Force said:


> Only reason Air forces buy single engined planes is to reduce cost.



your right, after all.... the Q-5 costs a whole lot more than the F-35


----------



## General General

WAQAS119 said:


> From where you got this comparison chart?


I got it from here: The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging - Grande Strategy
Like I said, I'm not sure how accurate this is.

@hasnain0099


> FYI, this "not at all sophisticated" A model busted J-11s of PLAAF repeatedly in mock fights.


For *your *information, I used the term *radiate*. Meaning, it does not apparenty look that good on the outside, but it might be one hell of a machine on the inside. I was* merely referring to the looks*. I suggest you carefully read and notice the choice of words before replying.


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## siegecrossbow

hasnain0099 said:


> May be siegecrossbow can update you so as to why J-10 was able to beat J-11s
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> may be he is referring to super-10



One of the primary reasons that the J-10 defeated the J-11 was, initially, superior avionics. Although the J-10A in the fight had upgraded avionics I don't think they were a match for the much newer J-10A. I think radar cross section was also an issue but much of the details of the fights were unreleased.


----------



## Stealth_fighter

siegecrossbow said:


> I think he was referring to the plane with a canted tail on display on one of the LCD screens.


probably thats the image of UFO in Lcd ....who dare to mess with j-10?


----------



## gypgypgyp

Storm Force said:


> _FYI, this "not at all sophisticated" A model busted J-11s of PLAAF repeatedly in mock fights. _
> 
> Is that Why Even Today PLAAF is planning to induct upto 500 flankers
> 
> 300 new versions J11B & J13
> 
> Single engined Fighters rarely beat a twin engined fighter if they are from the same genere.
> 
> Only reason Air forces buy single engined planes is to reduce cost.



your number is totally wrong


PLAAF

Su-27SK&#65306;36 

Su-27UBK&#65306;40 

Su-30MKK&#65306;76 

J-11A: 95 (Su-27sk build in China under licience)

J-11B: ??(rumour is 100 unit)

PLAN 

Su-30MKK2&#65306;24


Majority was purchased between 1992 and 2003, J-11A stopped in 2006

There is no J-13. J-13 project was launch in 1970s, and intend to design a aircraft similar to Su-25.


----------



## siegecrossbow

gypgypgyp said:


> your number is totally wrong
> 
> 
> PLAAF
> 
> Su-27SK&#65306;36
> 
> Su-27UBK&#65306;40
> 
> Su-30MKK&#65306;76
> 
> J-11A: 95 (Su-27sk build in China under licience)
> 
> J-11B: ??(rumour is 100 unit)
> 
> PLAN
> 
> Su-30MKK2&#65306;24
> 
> 
> Majority was purchased between 1992 and 2003, J-11A stopped in 2006
> 
> There is no J-13. J-13 project was launch in 1970s, and intend to design a aircraft similar to Su-25.



Are you sure that there are 100 J-11Bs? I thought that all J-11Bs are equipped with WS-10. If the rumors are true then Taihang has been mass produced?


----------



## AVIAN

hasnain0099 said:


> If you go to previous posts, the current leaks suggest that F-10B is serving as a test bed for 5th generation technologies like DSI,CIP, Wide Holographic Huds and AESA. effectively this means that China has started progression on 5th Gen platforms as these developments are a product of nothing but a 5th Gen program.The only possible hurdle IMHO is the engine, but one Chinese poster did indicate that Like PAK-FA and YF-22, the F-XX prototype will be powered by a more matured engine rather than a new product (WS-15). As FC-20 will come later than F-10B, the most probable reason for this delay is that PAF will like the F-10B systems to mature. So FC-20 is likely to Incorporate prodominently Chinese matured systems as West wont be able to offer much on this except Spectra protection suit or a more matured AESA and engine.(like vixen 1000) so in all FC-20 will have almost 80 to 90% Chinese system (personal estimates) and rest may be western engines. PAF will not likely to implement local gadgets for JFT I and II on FC-20 because the reported Chinese systems are likely to be far superior than local systems produced by then and learning on these, PAC will likely to master and implement them on JFT UB which will be coming around 2017-2020. but these are just my personal views, open for discussion. may be siegecrossbow can grace us with his thoughts on my hypothesis



CURRENT LEAKS, Chinese Poster and what more becomes your authentic sources and link to prove that Chinese are incorporating stealth element in J-10. On the top of that, you people simply producing various varient of J-10 out of nowhere, possible it was FC-20, J-10B and now this F-10B, perhaps you may lowered down the confusion and address this similar plane with very similar plane.


----------



## gypgypgyp

siegecrossbow said:


> Are you sure that there are 100 J-11Bs? I thought that all J-11Bs are equipped with WS-10. If the rumors are true then Taihang has been mass produced?



J-11BS is two seat version, for training purpose like Su-27UBK


J-11B start production in 2007, by early 2008 1st division 1st squadron already equiped with J-11B. 

J-11B is the only production of SAC at that period time. If SAC do not shut down their operation, what are they doing? pay staff to do nothing?


By the way, rumour also say J-11B production already shut down by now. J-11B's function is more like fill the gap, PLAAF originally want 200 local made Su-27, but J-11A only produced 95 unit. 

Following pic was shoot on early 2008, the location is 1st division training base

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## Storm Force

Current PLAAF link

People's Liberation Army Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Main highlights 

294 Flankers in total in service on order.

Biggest SURPRISE only 80 J10 so far (very slow progress) 

New carrier fighter based on J11 flankers in design ...


----------



## gypgypgyp

Storm Force said:


> Current PLAAF link
> 
> People's Liberation Army Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Main highlights
> 
> 294 Flankers in total in service on order.
> 
> Biggest SURPRISE only 80 J10 so far (very slow progress)
> 
> New carrier fighter based on J11 flankers in design ...





1st division 2nd squadron
2nd division 5th squadron
3rd division 7th squadron
9th division 26th squadron
24th division 72th squadron
44th division 132th squadron


each squadron 28 units

Plus

August 1st Aerobatics Demonstration Team 12 unit

Training and Testing center 13th squadron at least 10


Total 190 unit


9th division is the last one equip with J-10, date around end of 2009



New carrier fighter's video has been upload for monthes.

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## SBD-3

AVIAN said:


> CURRENT LEAKS, Chinese Poster and what more becomes your authentic sources and link to prove that Chinese are incorporating stealth element in J-10. On the top of that, you people simply producing various varient of J-10 out of nowhere, possible it was FC-20, J-10B and now this F-10B, perhaps you may lowered down the confusion and address this similar plane with very similar plane.


AFAIK, It took 8 years for China to acknowedge the presence of J-10A. PLAAF and CAC are officially silent on J-10B. even its presence was leaked out only through pics taken by various chinese members. same goes true for J-15. But in the latest leaks, J-10B could be seen with PLAAF insignia but no official comment came from PLAAF right from prototypes til the current pics. Secondly J-10B is also known as F-10B (Chinese fora refer to this as F-10). Similarly J-11 can also be written as F-11.


----------



## gypgypgyp

hasnain

Actually J-10B still is a AS aircraft.


PLAAF get Su-30 J/H-7 H-6 deal with ground target


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## SBD-3

gypgypgyp said:


> hasnain
> 
> Actually J-10B still is a AS aircraft.
> 
> 
> PLAAF get Su-30 J/H-7 H-6 deal with ground target



yes indeed, Just replying to avian's argument that why not a baseline J-10A model


----------



## Hasnain2009

Storm Force said:


> Current PLAAF link
> 
> People's Liberation Army Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Main highlights
> 
> 294 Flankers in total in service on order.
> 
> Biggest SURPRISE only 80 J10 so far (very slow progress)
> 
> New carrier fighter based on J11 flankers in design ...



SU-30MKK - Introduced - December 2000

J-11 - Introduced - 1998

Su-27 - Introduced - December 1984

J10 - Introduced - 2005.

SO the they are manufacturing flankers since decades, but J10 is only 5 year old.
Its better for u to chng ur flags.

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## siegecrossbow

Storm Force said:


> Current PLAAF link
> 
> People's Liberation Army Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Main highlights
> 
> 294 Flankers in total in service on order.
> 
> Biggest SURPRISE * only 80 J10 so far *(very slow progress)
> 
> New carrier fighter based on J11 flankers in design ...



Your data is outdated. 80 J-10s was an estimate by the Australians in 2008. The current number of J-10s is estimated to be close to 200 according to a recent tally of squadrons leaked by CCTV.

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## Stealth_fighter



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## gypgypgyp

WS-10A








holographic hud


Getting better everyday


the last nagetive new of WS-10A already 1 year ago. It seems steady now

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## Stealth_fighter

so this HUD will be fitted in j-10b?looks supercool


----------



## siegecrossbow

Speaking of the J-10B.... It looks like CAC has been hard at work recently. This picture was originally shared by Deino on sinodefence:

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## S.U.R.B.

siegecrossbow said:


> Speaking of the J-10B.... It looks like CAC has been hard at work recently. This picture was originally shared by Deino on sinodefence:



*Aik ,do, teen ,charr ,panch ,chei, saat.*.......

Brother kindly deliver 4 of them to PAF before 23march 2011.We want to see them flying in Pakistan color soon.(if the parade ever happened.) The formation will get completed that way.

You can keep the rest 3 for missile test etc.(Just kidding)

Nice pic.


----------



## mohan goyal

S.U.R.B. said:


> *Aik ,do, teen ,charr ,panch ,chei, saat.*.......
> 
> Brother kindly deliver 4 of them to PAF before 23march 2011.We want to see them flying in Pakistan color soon.(if the parade ever happened.) The formation will get completed that way.
> 
> You can keep the rest 3 for missile test etc.(Just kidding)
> 
> Nice pic.


23 march 2010 nikal gaya miya lol...agle saal ka khahiye.


----------



## mshoaib61

mohan goyal said:


> 23 march 2010 nikal gaya miya lol...agle saal ka khahiye.



Read carefully again. he said before march 2011

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## Stealth_fighter

why yellow colour?


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## siegecrossbow

Stealth_fighter said:


> why yellow colour?



All planes have yellow primers when they come off the PLAAF production line. Grey paintworks are going to be applied once testflights are complete.


----------



## Manticore

http://dc275.*******.com/img/sf6rbREQ/0.9074920014605302/j10_b__new.jpeg
http://dc123.*******.com/img/g_jG3kYN/0.22063794154960725/j10_b__new_w2.jpg
new


where can i find one of these?
http://dc182.*******.com/img/OU1I9Jj6/f16.jpg


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## no_name

^^^ I think those are still J-10A s


----------



## siegecrossbow

no_name said:


> ^^^ I think those are still J-10A s



Nope. He got the pictures from the same source as me. The J-10s in question use DSI inlets so they have to be J-10Bs.


----------



## TaimiKhan

siegecrossbow said:


> Nope. He got the pictures from the same source as me. The J-10s in question use DSI inlets so they have to be J-10Bs.



These are J-10A, look at the below pics enlarging them and you will see that they don't have the ECM on the top of the tails, as well as the nose cone is round just like J-10As, while J-10Bs have slightly different shaped nose cone, more like a F-16 and the inlets are the usual old ones, not DSI ones. 

They seem to be a new batch of J-10A for CAF. 

Remove the space between sino & defence and paste in the link area for this below link.

http://www.sino defence/attachments...ead-iii-j-10a-yellow-line-up-cac-20.10.10.jpg

Check this below website, click on the picture and then enlarge it, you will see the difference. 

&#210;&#187;&#197;&#197;&#181;&#200;&#180;&#253;&#189;&#187;&#184;&#182;&#181;&#196;&#187;&#198;&#198;&#164;&#188;&#223;10&#213;&#189;&#187;&#250;!_&#191;&#213;&#190;&#252;&#176;&#230;_&#200;&#253;&#190;&#252;&#194;&#219;&#204;&#179;_&#190;&#252;&#202;&#194;&#194;&#219;&#204;&#179;_&#208;&#194;&#192;&#203;&#205;&#248;

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## TaimiKhan

Enlarged Picture of the new batch of J-10As:

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## TaimiKhan

Awesome J-10:

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## abdullahk

so f 10b is a step in fifth generation capabilities for china.... test bed. how good can this be to PAF . and one more thing , the IRST can it detect stealth aircraft

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## TaimiKhan

abdullahk said:


> so f 10b is a step in fifth generation capabilities for china.... test bed. how good can this be to PAF . and one more thing , the IRST can it detect stealth aircraft



It would be very good for PAF, would be coming with lot of potential as well as capabilities. 

Yes, IRST can be useful in detecting a stealth aircraft due to the heat signature.

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## mjnaushad

TaimiKhan said:


> It would be very good for PAF, would be coming with lot of potential as well as capabilities.
> 
> Yes, IRST can be useful in detecting a stealth aircraft due to the heat signature.


what is the usual range of IRST...??


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## TaimiKhan

mjnaushad said:


> what is the usual range of IRST...??



The Russian OLS-35 system has this specification:

The aerial target acquisition range (in nonafterburner mode) in the front hemisphere is at least 50 km and that in the rear hemisphere is at least 90 km. The laser rangefinder ranges aerial targets out at 20 km and ground targets out at 30 km with a precision of 5 m.

http://www.sukhoi.org/files/su_news_29-08-07_eng.pdf

And the OLS-50M may have something like 70NM range. 

Air Combat: Russia?s PAK-FA versus the F-22 and F-35

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## mjnaushad

TaimiKhan said:


> The Russian OLS-35 system has this specification:
> 
> The aerial target acquisition range (in nonafterburner mode) in the front hemisphere is at least *50 km* and that in the rear hemisphere is at least *90 km*. The laser rangefinder ranges aerial targets out at 20 km and ground targets out at 30 km with a precision of 5 m.
> 
> http://www.sukhoi.org/files/su_news_29-08-07_eng.pdf
> 
> And the OLS-50M may have something like *70NM* range.
> 
> Air Combat: Russia?s PAK-FA versus the F-22 and F-35




IRST on J10 and JFT will give us some serious air warfare advantages.


----------



## TaimiKhan

mjnaushad said:


> IRST on J10 and JFT will give us some serious air warfare advantages.



Yeah, with reduced RCS, these IRST can be very useful as enemy plane may not be able to detect earlier, while the IRST equipped plane may detect it early or through ground radar support or AEW&C sneak close to the enemy and fire its missiles without opening up his radar.

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## SBD-3

IMHO, the biggest advantage of IRST is that a good IRST allows passive detection at BVR range without switching one's radar on. It helps aircraft to maintain a low profile and reduced the detection range of Hostile radar and thus giving home AC ability to make the first launch

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## Stealth_fighter

Isnt it true that IRST will be integrated with jf-17?


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## Stealth_fighter




----------



## SBD-3

Stealth_fighter said:


> Isnt it true that IRST will be integrated with jf-17?



AFAIK, JFT is most likely to carry IRST pod. However, an integrated IRST like J-10B is still not confirmed.

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## mjnaushad

Stealth_fighter said:


> Isnt it true that IRST will be integrated with jf-17?


Not in the first batch.....

A very respected member nabil said that its possibility that in 2nd batch the IRST will be integrated.

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## monitor

I have been thinking about one thing that how much different it will be in the quality of fc-20 and the possible jf-17 block II ?can any one give analysis ?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

According to PACs official web site IRST is present un JF-17 Thunder.


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## SBD-3

mjnaushad said:


> Not in the first batch.....
> 
> A very respected member nabil said that its possibility that in 2nd batch the IRST will be integrated.



I personally think that IRST will not feature in JFT Transition Block (Block II) as the first target on hand is the replacement of old fleet and given that integrating an IRST sensor in The nose would require some adjustments to not only nose but possible canopy as well. This would require some time which is PAF is short of so yes we may see an integrated IRST in JFT UB but not in Bl II


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## mjnaushad

hasnain0099 said:


> I personally think that IRST will not feature in JFT Transition Block (Block II) as the first target on hand is the replacement of old fleet and given that integrating an IRST sensor in The nose would require some adjustments to not only nose but possible canopy as well. This would require some time which is PAF is short of so yes we may see an integrated IRST in JFT UB but not in Bl II


well he actually said in PM to me and i quote, 



> probably in second or *third*



So we both are right and we both are wrong.


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Wow can't wait for 2013-2014 when we will start getting this wonderful plane in our inventory


----------



## aimarraul



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## Typhoon

aimarraul said:


>



Man this looks like F-16, China and its blatant reverse engineering


----------



## TaimiKhan

Typhoon said:


> Man this looks like F-16, China and its blatant reverse engineering



From where does it looks like F-16 ??

Are the nose have similarity ??

The intakes have similarity ??

Does F-16 has canards ??

Have you checked out the landing gear mechanism ?? 

Have you see the wing design of both ??

Does the cockpit layout matches with F-16s ??

Does the canopy matches with F-16 ??

Does the placement of the internal gun matches to F-16 ??

Which part of J-10 design matches to F-16 ?? 

Why guys like to post ignorant remarks without having done know how about what you are gonna paste or talking about ??

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## houshanghai

http://www.tudou.com/v/4elnBl82xjA/v.swf


81 air show team J-10 Painting&#8212;&#8212;cctv Program


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## Firemaster

TaimiKhan said:


> From where does it looks like F-16 ??
> 
> Are the nose have similarity ??
> 
> The intakes have similarity ??
> 
> Does F-16 has canards ??
> 
> Have you checked out the landing gear mechanism ??
> 
> Have you see the wing design of both ??
> 
> Does the cockpit layout matches with F-16s ??
> 
> Does the canopy matches with F-16 ??
> 
> Does the placement of the internal gun matches to F-16 ??
> 
> Which part of J-10 design matches to F-16 ??
> 
> Why guys like to post ignorant remarks without having done know how about what you are gonna paste or talking about ??



Actually ,j10 is a mixture of many good fighters:

1. nose like su-27 style

2. Air intakes like F-16 & lavi though j-10 have flat type

3. Canards like rafale ( close to wings ) and like EFT ( in size )

4. streamlined fuselage like that of f-16

5. canopy like gripen with dropped nose cone

6. wings like lavi but much improved

and all these things made j10 a potent fighter


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## houshanghai

J10 air show 2008 zhuhai media 

http://www.tudou.com/v/oWvIJd2CmZA/v.swf

http://www.tudou.com/v/DldXP1pxCN8/v.swf

we can see Pakistani pilots will fly the JF-17thunder perfoming at China ZhuHai Air show in Nov 16th - 21st 2010!


PAF song JAZBA by Shafqat Amanat Ali

http://www.tudou.com/v/KIuue8bE45E/v.swf



(Although I do not understand what the song means, but paf is the world's great air force, plaff need to learn to paf)



Please excuse my bad English

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## khurasaan1

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Wow can't wait for 2013-2014 when we will start getting this wonderful plane in our inventory



okay great inshallah....

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## Jungibaaz

firemaster said:


> 1. nose like su-27 style



the noses don't look that much alike.


firemaster said:


> 2. Air intakes like F-16 & lavi though j-10 have flat type



what's wrong with that??? if 2 planes have this design then 1 more would make j-10 a copy?


firemaster said:


> 3. Canards like rafale ( close to wings ) and like EFT ( in size )


Atlas Cheetah
Chengdu J-10
Dassault Rafale
Eurofighter Typhoon
Grumman X-29A
IAI Lavi
McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing) F-15 S/MTD
Pterodactyl Ascender
Rockwell-MBB X-31
Saab JAS 39 Gripen
Sukhoi Su-30 MKI
Sukhoi Su-33
Sukhoi Su-34
Sukhoi Su-35
Sukhoi Su-37
Sukhoi Su-47

all have canards, but it doesn't make them a copy of each other



firemaster said:


> 4. streamlined fuselage like that of f-16



a pretty normal feature for a plane! it needs to aerodynamic...


firemaster said:


> 5. canopy like gripen with dropped nose cone


Alot of planes have a bubble canopy, doesn't make them copies.


firemaster said:


> 6. wings like lavi but much improved


the wings on the Lavi are swept back, the wings on j-10 look like the ones on EFT and Grippen.

J-10 truly is an amazing aircraft!

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## wangrong



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## Firemaster

Jungibaaz said:


> the noses don't look that much alike.
> 
> 
> what's wrong with that??? if 2 planes have this design then 1 more would make j-10 a copy?
> 
> Atlas Cheetah
> Chengdu J-10
> Dassault Rafale
> Eurofighter Typhoon
> Grumman X-29A
> IAI Lavi
> McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing) F-15 S/MTD
> Pterodactyl Ascender
> Rockwell-MBB X-31
> Saab JAS 39 Gripen
> Sukhoi Su-30 MKI
> Sukhoi Su-33
> Sukhoi Su-34
> Sukhoi Su-35
> Sukhoi Su-37
> Sukhoi Su-47
> 
> all have canards, but it doesn't make them a copy of each other
> 
> 
> 
> a pretty normal feature for a plane! it needs to aerodynamic...
> 
> Alot of planes have a bubble canopy, doesn't make them copies.
> 
> the wings on the Lavi are swept back, the wings on j-10 look like the ones on EFT and Grippen.
> 
> J-10 truly is an amazing aircraft!



I don,t say that by having air intake below fuelsage j10 is a copy but inspired from it.nose also inspired frm su-27.

I said it is very good to place canards close to wings, many fighters inspired frm it , i dont tell it as a copy
the wings on lavi are swept back (u r right, but it can give inspiration)

i said streamlined body of j10 look like f-16 and lavi.

*above all* I am a fan of j10 
and i dont tell it as a copy but told that it is bleesed with many good features of potent fighters of today that make it very maneuverable
aircraft of today.

By the way, I am new at this forum.

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## siegecrossbow

Typhoon said:


> Man this looks like F-16, China and its blatant reverse engineering



Yup. Two wings and round wheels.

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## Jungibaaz

siegecrossbow said:


> Yup. Two wings and round wheels.



and it can fly just like the f-16, China has gone too far this time!

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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> Yup. Two wings and round wheels.


To be honest, they find it hard to digest. They scream louder than even the Russians. "its a copy!!!", "Crappy Copy!!", "Chinese Theft!!!" blaw blaw blaw. But they know that they can't even do a s**t about it

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## Trichy

i think thats while this one lost to MiG-29M in Myanmar????????


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Trichy said:


> i think thats while this one lost to MiG-29M in Myanmar????????



FC-20 is still in testing and not for sale to anyone.

J-10 was offered(no official sources?).... Mig 29 won.... coz it was cheap and they were already making it... hence tht would be far expensive for a poor country like myanmar.

Logic.

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## siegecrossbow

Trichy said:


> i think thats while this one lost to MiG-29M in Myanmar????????



The Burmese purchased their first batch of MIG-29s in 2001. They have experience operating the 29s. Besides I'm not sure that the PLAAF is willing to sell the J-10As until Pakistan receives the first batch (2014) since the J-10A is still China's premier fighter.

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## TaimiKhan

Trichy said:


> i think thats while this one lost to MiG-29M in Myanmar????????



Aaahhhh, the usual Indian line that J-10 lost, based on unofficial news sources. 

Can anyone of you provide the official source from China to have presented the J-10 to Burma, or anything from Burma. J-10 are using Russian engines, how come China will be selling the J-10s to another country of they don't have the permission for re-export.

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## SBD-3

TaimiKhan said:


> Aaahhhh, the usual Indian line that J-10 lost, based on unofficial news sources.
> 
> Can anyone of you provide the official source from China to have presented the J-10 to Burma, or anything from Burma. J-10 are using Russian engines, how come China will be selling the J-10s to another country of they don't have the permission for re-export.



indeed, thats why Chinese are so intense on their engine development.I mean hoestly, Russia will never allow China to capture Russian Market by using Russian Engines. In fact, Russian did not expected from Chinese platforms to outclass theirs. Thats why we often see frequent requests by Sukhoi and MigDB from Russian government to stop the engine exports.J-10 will not be exportable unless it getting the most awaited WS-10A (which is almost double the life of AL-31F and at least similar power)

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## gypgypgyp

hasnain0099 said:


> indeed, thats why Chinese are so intense on their engine development.I mean hoestly, Russia will never allow China to capture Russian Market by using Russian Engines. In fact, Russian did not expected from Chinese platforms to outclass theirs. Thats why we often see frequent requests by Sukhoi and MigDB from Russian government to stop the engine exports.J-10 will not be exportable unless it getting the most awaited WS-10A (which is almost double the life of AL-31F and at least similar power)




I want repeat my point again

We need question that

Does China has enough produce capacity of WS-10A?


J-11B/J-11BS/J-15 is in prior position compare with J-10, and they may consume hunderd engine a year.


I think J-10 will rely on Rassian engine for another couple years.

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## houshanghai

some sinodefence boss(ex&#65306; pupu.....)said J10B engine maybe ws15/ 99M1/M2




sinodefence website:
10B&#178;&#187;&#202;&#199;&#190;&#161;&#205;&#183;&#163;&#172;&#186;&#243;&#205;&#183;&#187;&#185;&#211;&#208;&#184;&#252;&#186;&#195;&#181;&#195;&#182;&#224;&#181;&#196;&#184;&#196;&#208;&#205;&#161;*&#161;* &#183;&#201;&#209;&#239;&#190;&#252;&#202;&#194; &#208;&#241;&#200;&#213;&#179;&#246;&#182;&#171;&#183;&#189;&#163;&#172;&#190;&#171;&#178;&#202;&#212;&#218;&#183;&#201;&#209;&#239; - powered by phpwind.net


plz time to prove all


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## houshanghai

some j10 new pic

°ËÒ»±íÑÝ¶Ó²ÉÓÃÐÂÍ¿×°¼Ó½ôÑµÁ·±¸Õ½Öéº£º½Õ¹_¸ßÇåÍ¼¼¯_ÐÂÀËÍø


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## Luftwaffe



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## IceCold

Luftwaffe said:


>



Love the color scheme.

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## fatman17

IceCold said:


> Love the color scheme.



thats a 'bad' looking machine!!!

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## xuwei

gypgypgyp said:


> I want repeat my point again
> 
> We need question that
> 
> Does China has enough produce capacity of WS-10A?
> 
> 
> J-11B/J-11BS/J-15 is in prior position compare with J-10, and they may consume hunderd engine a year.
> 
> 
> I think J-10 will rely on Rassian engine for another couple years.



My friend,i don't think the produce capacity of WS-10A is the reason.
The time of the resent Major accident for WS10A is the end of 2009.Which made lots of J11B stop at the airport for no engine.That may be the real reason.However,one year past,there is no major accident any more for J11B.That's why chengdu can think about testing WS10A in J10B.we can sure one thing:the J10B of PAF will use WS10A.


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## xuwei

hasnain0099 said:


> indeed, thats why Chinese are so intense on their engine development.I mean hoestly, Russia will never allow China to capture Russian Market by using Russian Engines. In fact, Russian did not expected from Chinese platforms to outclass theirs. Thats why we often see frequent requests by Sukhoi and MigDB from Russian government to stop the engine exports.J-10 will not be exportable unless it getting the most awaited WS-10A (which is almost double the life of AL-31F and at least similar power)



You are right!
J-10 will not be exportable unless it getting the most awaited WS-10A


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## xuwei

Typhoon said:


> Man this looks like F-16, China and its blatant reverse engineering



you looks like apes

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## cloneman

Trichy said:


> i think thats while this one lost to MiG-29M in Myanmar????????



J10A was never offered to Myanmar,How could it be defeated in a competetion with Mig29? Do you have any offical Chinese links that the J10 was offered to the countries except Pakistan?


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## Luftwaffe

Its a Bad A.s.s and Impressive Machine.

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## SBD-3

xuwei said:


> My friend,i don't think the produce capacity of WS-10A is the reason.
> The time of the resent Major accident for WS10A is the end of 2009.Which made lots of J11B stop at the airport for no engine.That may be the real reason.However,one year past,there is no major accident any more for J11B.That's why chengdu can think about testing WS10A in J10B.we can sure one thing:the J10B of PAF will use WS10A.



I think not only J-10B but also every export variant of J-10 series will carry WS-10A. even the PLAAF versions will switch to WS-10A as it matures.


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## houshanghai

ws10A

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## abaseen99

i think it is better for paf to fly j 10b with ws 10a


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## Stealth_fighter



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## Stealth_fighter



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## xuwei

hasnain0099 said:


> I think not only J-10B but also every export variant of J-10 series will carry WS-10A. even the PLAAF versions will switch to WS-10A as it matures.



WS15 is in development for 5's generation fighter,and the targit of changing WS10.But how long will ok,we don't know.Optimistic estimates 2020 can equipt airforces.


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## Stealth_fighter

new pictures of j-10 looks like L-15 I GUESS


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## houshanghai



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## houshanghai



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## houshanghai



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## Mughal-Prince

@ Wangrong ::: Sir, I want to ask that, what is the probability of integrating WS-15 in J-10 after it is matured as I see with its enormous thrust it may give it supercruise capability or is this could be achieved with WS-10 series ...


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## abaseen99

houshanghai said:


>



very nice thanks


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## siegecrossbow

Video of August First's recent performance in Shi Jia Zhuang. This is filmed by an amateur so the video quality is not too good.

101025_°ËÒ»·ÉÐÐ_ÔÚÏßÊÓÆµ¹Û¿´_ÍÁ¶¹ÍøÊÓÆµ °ËÒ»·ÉÐÐ ¼ßÊ®


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## marcos98




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## marcos98




----------



## MZUBAIR

All of above are J10A..

We are waiting for J10B flight tests ...!!!!

*Any guess wt could be the new and different features would J10B have*

Lets have some discussion on J10A Vs J10B


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## SBD-3

MZUBAIR said:


> All of above are J10A..
> 
> We are waiting for J10B flight tests ...!!!!
> 
> *Any guess wt could be the new and different features would J10B have*
> 
> Lets have some discussion on J10A Vs J10B



J-10B is almost near induction, and these are acrobatic manuvers not flight test manuvers. We have already discussed a bit on the difference in previous posts. J-10B is an enhancement of J-10A's both A2A and A2G capabilities but the foucus remained on enhancing A2A.

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## rockstarIN

houshanghai said:


>



These two pics are super..

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## MZUBAIR

*J-10A VS J-10B*​
*J-10A*






Powerplant: 1× Saturn-Lyulka AL-31FN
Speed:- 1.9 Mach
Loaded weight:- 14,876 kg (32,797 lb)
Combat radius:-~550 km
Thrust/weight: 0.89
Hardpoints: 11 in total 
Radar:- NRIET KLJ-10 multi-mode fire-control radar
Major Armament:- 
Air to Air medium range BVR PL-12 (SD-10).
Air to Air short range WVR PL-9
Air to Surface LT2 , LS6
Anti-ship missile YJ-9K 
Anti-radiation missiles such PJ-9.


Major Points:-
1) Due to the J-10A's aerodynamically unstable design, a digital quadruplex-redundant fly-by-wire flight control system aids the pilot in flying the aircraft.
2) Liquid crystal Multi-function displays(MFD) Cockpit, LCD display panel
3)Advance HUD (for all weathers)
4) helmet-mounted display (HMD) 
5) Advance internal electronic counter-measures (ECM) suite.
6)Jammer *Pods* , signals intelligence (SIGINT) *pods*
7)Infra-red search and track (IRST) *Pods* system 
8) FILAT (Forward-looking Infra-red Laser Attack Targeting) *pod* for laser designation of targets and the Blue Sky forward looking infra-red (FLIR) *pod* for low visibility.
9)Air-refulling capability

_(Pods are externally-mounted)_

*Thanxs to wekipedia and reference sources from wekipedia*

*J-10B*




_(Prototype)_





Latest Image

*The J-10B is a modified variant of the J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, with modifications in airframe and avionics.*

The design has a number of prominent changes which will improve performance and capabilities


*Such as enhancements are to include a modified vertical stabiliser and ventral fins, manevers, redesigned engine inlet, a new radar and an infrared search and track sensor and new versions of weapons.*

Powerplant: WS-10A Taihang turbofan with *thrust vectoring, TVC*
Speed:- ~+/- 2.0 Mach (expected)
Loaded weight:- ~ +/-18,000 kg (expected)
Combat radius:- ~ +/- 600KM (expected)
Thrust/weight: ~1.0
Hardpoints: 11 points 
Radar:- Long range Unknown but PESA or may be AESA
Major Armament:- 
Air to Air Long range BVR ????
Air to Air medium range *new varients* BVR PL-12 (SD-10).
Air to Air short range *new varients* WVR PL-9
Air to Surface ????
Anti-ship missile *new varients* YJ-9K 
Anti-radiation missiles New ????.

*Major Notable Points:-*
1) Chin-mounted diffuser supersonic inlet (DSI) air inlet. This helps to eliminate all moving parts on the inlet, *lightening the overall weight and reducing the aircrafts radar signature.*
2)electronic-optic targeting system (EOTS), commonly found in Russian AC's
3) electronic warfare and countermeasures (EW/ECM) equipment _(mounted at the tip of the tailfin)_



_*Thanxs to weki, sindefence and other sourcees*_
Sinodefence

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## Jungibaaz

MZUBAIR said:


> Powerplant: WS-10A Taihang turbofan with *thrust vectoring, TVC*



J-10B with TVC??? this is new to me.

Good news if true, it would really enhance it's dogfighting capabilities.


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## trident2010

Surely J10B is a nice fighter plane. 

But I don't know I find its Fuselage bit too long. I am sure it is having its aerodynamic benifits.


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## rockstarIN

trident2010 said:


> Surely J10B is a nice fighter plane.
> 
> But I don't know I find its Fuselage bit too long. I am sure it is having its aerodynamic benifits.



Ya its a 'long' plane, can any experts explain the benefits?


----------



## SBD-3

Jungibaaz said:


> J-10B with TVC??? this is new to me.
> 
> Good news if true, it would really enhance it's dogfighting capabilities.



J-10B needs not necessarily to come with a TVC. Its already very agile and the turn rates and manuvering seems astonishing. WA-10A is reported to be more reliable and and possessing better thrust than WS-10A but no TVC. I think if there is any such thing as TVC, I suspect to see that more likely on WS-10G rather than WS-10A

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## SBD-3

MZUBAIR said:


> *Major Notable Points:-*
> 1) Chin-mounted diffuser supersonic inlet (DSI) air inlet. This helps to eliminate all moving parts on the inlet, *lightening the overall weight and reducing the aircrafts radar signature.*
> 2)electronic-optic targeting system (EOTS), commonly found in Russian AC's
> 3) electronic warfare and countermeasures (EW/ECM) equipment _(mounted at the tip of the tailfin)_
> 
> 
> 
> _*Thanxs to weki, sindefence and other sourcees*_
> Sinodefence



To add to your points
4) Integrated IRST
5) More composits
6) Installation of Paylons for increased weapons load
7) New AESA
8) CIP suite replacing dedicated avionics 
9) A possible Ramjet Based BVRAAM (PL-14)
10) Increased Max Airspeed to 2.0 Mach


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## SBD-3

On Missiles front, The most possible WVRAAM for FC-20 will be A-Darter while BVRAAM will be PL-14 (if it shows up) otherwise expect MICA or T-Darter like BVRAAM produced by AWC


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## Jungibaaz

hasnain0099 said:


> On Missiles front, The most possible WVRAAM for FC-20 will be A-Darter while BVRAAM will be PL-14 (if it shows up) otherwise expect MICA or T-Darter like BVRAAM produced by AWC



I don't know about the PL-14...

Could you please share what you know about it?


----------



## xuwei



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## xuwei



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## TaimiKhan

trident2010 said:


> Surely J10B is a nice fighter plane.
> 
> But I don't know I find its Fuselage bit too long. I am sure it is having its aerodynamic benifits.





rockstar said:


> Ya its a 'long' plane, can any experts explain the benefits?



How is it too long ?? 

F-16 length: 49 ft 5 in

J-10: 50 ft 10 in

Difference is 1 ft 5 inches, so its nearly equal to the length of an F-16, thus not that much bigger fuselage. And the difference may be due to the length of the engine fitted in J-10 as its lengthier compared to some some models of the engine powering F-16s.

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## SBD-3

Jungibaaz said:


> I don't know about the PL-14...
> 
> Could you please share what you know about it?



Little is known about this missile, its more likely a ramjet based missile which would be in the similar class of Vymple R-77 and AIM-120D AMRAAM. But there is no official acknowledgement by China as like other programs.

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## Arsalan

rockstar said:


> Ya its a 'long' plane, can any experts explain the benefits?




how long dear??
it is 50 ft 10 in, compared to

F-16
Length: 49 ft 5 in 
that is 1ft 5 in shorter

if we want to pick a huge fighter aircraft the names are to be Su-27, Su-30 and F-15. although twin engine but these are real big boys..

regards!


----------



## farhan_9909

Jungibaaz said:


> I don't know about the PL-14...
> 
> Could you please share what you know about it?



I think it is like Europian meteor BVR.
powered by ramjet engine...
bt is still underdevelopment


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## rockstarIN

arsalanaslam123 said:


> how long dear??
> it is 50 ft 10 in, compared to
> 
> F-16
> Length: 49 ft 5 in
> that is 1ft 5 in shorter
> 
> if we want to pick a huge fighter aircraft the names are to be Su-27, Su-30 and F-15. although twin engine but these are real big boys..
> 
> regards!




But it really look very long, isn't it?


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## trident2010

rockstar said:


> But it really look very long, isn't it?




Yes !!

I was also talking about the proportions. If you see any other fighter say F-16 or F-18, they looks fairly balanced. I am sure J-10 is a potent aircraft but I don't like its long look. 

cheers


----------



## SBD-3

trident2010 said:


> Yes !!
> 
> I was also talking about the proportions. If you see any other fighter say F-16 or F-18, they looks fairly balanced. I am sure J-10 is a potent aircraft but I don't like its long look.
> 
> cheers



I see the issue here, here look at the first pic and then look at the second pic








you see that J-10 and Typhoon are roughly of same size, the only difference is that of canards placement.In J-10 the canards are placed behind cockpit whereas in typhoon, the canards are ahead of the cockpit, Grippen has the similar type of positioning as J-10 so their noses look long where as if you see the typhoon and J-10, both are roughly of the same size. So its primarily canard placement which is making you think that J-10 is a "long" aircraft. And secondly being sexy is another thing but effectiveness is the main goal of aircraft design. B-2 is no way as handsome as any other bomber, but it does its job like no other. similarly F-22 may not be as sexy as typhoon but it remains the king of the skies

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## cloneman

Jungibaaz said:


> I don't know about the PL-14...
> 
> Could you please share what you know about it?

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## siegecrossbow

Well the J-10 is affectionately nick named the "stick" by Chinese aviation enthusiasts. I think this has to do with the fact that the actual body of the plane isn't as wide as that of the F-16.

In my opinion the J-10B is a much sexier plane than the J-10A due to the slanted radome and the removal of "braces" above the engine intakes.

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## justanobserver

hasnain0099 said:


> similarly F-22 may not be as sexy as typhoon but it remains the king of the skies



Are you kidding me?! F-22 is way more sexy than the Typhoon. It's helmet looks more high tech than the Euro-canard !


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## siegecrossbow

justanobserver said:


> Are you kidding me?! F-22 is way more sexy than the Typhoon. It's helmet looks more high tech than the Euro-canard !



Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Some people like blonds while others like brunettes.

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## IceCold

siegecrossbow said:


> Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Some people like blonds while others like brunettes.



Well said


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

justanobserver said:


> Are you kidding me?! F-22 is way more sexy than the Typhoon. It's helmet looks more high tech than the Euro-canard !



by the way its F35's helmet.


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## SBD-3

danger-zone said:


> by the way its F35's helmet.



well Typhoon also has one. Its called HMSS (helmet mounted symbology system)

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## Jungibaaz

Are the Chinese developing some sort of JHMCS? 
I'd love to see JHMCS+fifth gen WVRAAM on jf-17 and j-10.


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## SBD-3

Jungibaaz said:


> Are the Chinese developing some sort of JHMCS?
> I'd love to see JHMCS+fifth gen WVRAAM on jf-17 and j-10.



chinese do has a HMS and I think JFT has HMS at the moment (not sure 100%)

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## siegecrossbow

hasnain0099 said:


> well Typhoon also has one. Its called HMSS (helmet mounted symbology system)



The HMSS is so futuristic looking!!! I like how the pilot in the Typhoon picture has this "evil" look due to his "glowing eyes" lol.

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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> The HMSS is so futuristic looking!!! I like how the pilot in the Typhoon picture has this "evil" look due to his "glowing eyes" lol.



 yeah I wonder what he would say to his tech staff after getting out of cockpit....may be "greeting earthlings!!"  ... anyways the advantage of HMS is so immense that it has virtually proved "looks can kill"

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## Stealth_fighter

looks like alien


----------



## abdullahk

hasnain0099 said:


> well Typhoon also has one. Its called HMSS (helmet mounted symbology system)



it looks like he ghonna say PEEK KA BOOO


----------



## SBD-3

here is the Chinese one
















certainly not as advanced as JHMCS or HMSS


----------



## Luftwaffe

Looks like an early 1st prototype hasnain0099.


----------



## SBD-3

Luftwaffe said:


> Looks like an early 1st prototype hasnain0099.



But there are no pics of any next gen HMS from China.


----------



## SBD-3

Jungibaaz said:


> I don't know about the PL-14...
> 
> Could you please share what you know about it?



here is some detail about it


> PL-13
> 
> Another surprise in the imagery made available on Chinese web pages on January 4 was a curious computer-generated depiction of a missile called the PL-13. However, it must be stressed that this is the first image of this missile and a definitive determination of its existence and performance must await further disclosures. Arguing in favor of this programs existence is the fact that its image appears with clear images of the PL-12 and the new PL-10, which would tend to lend credibility to the new missile depiction. In addition, Luoyang was reported to have been interested in ramjet propulsion to develop the PL-12.[13] This PL-13 image also points to the possibility that Vympel has sold China the technology needed to make such an AAM. The PL-13 image appears to show a two-intake ramjet motor, a configuration that Vympel had come to prefer as it was developing its R-77M-PD, following early 1990s collaboration with Frances former MATRA Corporation.[14] The ramjet intake shape on the PL-13 appears to conform to one known Vympel configuration. Furthermore, the four cruciform fins at the front end of the PL-13 are also characteristic of other Vympel missiles like the R-27, and Vympel was also reportedly discarding the grid shape fins for conventional fins,[15] which also coincides with the PL-13 image. Inasmuch as Russia apparently decided not to purchase the R-77M-PD, it is possible that Vympel was allowed to sell this missile technology to China.[16] But it is also possible that South Africa was a source for some AAM ramjet engine technology, inasmuch as South Africa also had an unrealized program called the Long Range Air-to-Air Missile (LRAAM).
> 
> 
> First PL-13 Image: This computer generated image appeared on the CJDBY website on January 4, 2008. While little is known about this missile the images credibility is supported by the inclusion of images of the PL-12 and the recently revealed PL-10. Source: CJDBY web site
> 
> 
> If a real program, then the PL-13 would give the PLA a long-range AAM with considerable new capabilities. The R-77M-PD was reported to have an estimated range of 160km and the PL-13 should be expected to do as well or better. Furthermore, as it a ramjet powered missile, it is expected to sustain its high speed, likely about Mach 4 and greater, throughout its engagement, meaning that it has a substantial no escape zone, perhaps similar to that of the MBDA Meteor. Should the PL-13 see a near-term introduction, the it will likely be used in conjunction with the PLAs AWACS aircraft that can find distant targets and then pass targeting data to attacking aircraft, likely J-11B and J-10 fighter. But the potential range of the PL-13 offers an indication that the PLA is also likely developing long-range radar for its 4th and 5th generation fighters, or may be interested in upgrading existing fighters with new longer range Russian radar. Inasmuch as Vympel has been marketing passive guided versions of the R-27 and R-77, it is reasonable to speculate that a version of the PL-13 may feature a passive guidance system, to better enable long-range attacks against critical support aircraft like AWACS, electronic warfare and tanker aircraft. The PL-13 could also form the basis for a future light-weight anti-radar or supersonic anti-ship missile.
> 
> 
> 
> PL-13 and R-77M-PD Compared: The ramjet intakes of the PL-13 (top) and the R-77M-PD (bottom) show a clear similarity, whereas the PL-13 adopts the two-intake configuration Vympel reportedly settled upon following early 1990s collaboration with Frances MATRA. Source: CJDBY and Internet
> 
> 
> There is also the possibility that the PLA could purchase new Russian very long-range AAMs or develop similar AAMs themselves. Inasmuch as the PLA is reportedly interested in purchasing some number of the new Russian Sukhoi Su-35 fighter, it may also purchase the unique weapons offered with this fighter, like the 300-400km range Novator K-100/172. India may be interested in an advanced version of this missile capable of anti-missile intercepts.[17] Asian military sources also note that China is developing a 400km range surface-to-air missile.[18] If this new PLA SAM is based on Russian S-400 components, for which China is reportedly an investor, then this new SAM may be small enough to be developed into a very long-range AAM, perhaps even with future anti-missile intercept capabilities.
> 
> 
> Novator K-100/172: In development since the late Cold War, the latest version of the very long range Novator K-100 design was revealed at the 2007 Moscow Airshow. Source: Internet


----------



## Arsalan

trident2010 said:


> Yes !!
> 
> I was also talking about the proportions. If you see any other fighter say F-16 or F-18, they looks fairly balanced. I am sure J-10 is a potent aircraft but I don't like its long look.
> 
> cheers





























and you say its not a beauty??


----------



## hahahaha

How many of j 10 did pakistan order? And when will it enter service?


----------



## Arsalan

hahahaha said:


> How many of j 10 did pakistan order? And when will it enter service?



PAF have alredy order a first batch of 36 with more orders to follow taking the numbers to aroubd 75.
the initial requirment of PAF has been of five squadrons of FC-20 with first 36 ordered..

regards!


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## mjnaushad

*2 Seats*

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## monitor

last picture of j-10 is really sexy cannot wait to see them in paf color

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## SBD-3

mjnaushad said:


> *2 Seats*



yeah PAF also flies Falcon B which acts like a fighter cum trainer for new pilots


----------



## mjnaushad

hasnain0099 said:


> yeah PAF also flies Falcon B which acts like a fighter cum trainer for new pilots


Thats what i am pointing. Its not J10...The upper pic...Looks like Falcon, The intake and also seems CFTs are installed. But then again is that IRST on Falcon??


----------



## SQ8

mjnaushad said:


> Thats what i am pointing. Its not J10...The upper pic...Looks like Falcon, The intake and also seems CFTs are installed. But then again is that IRST on Falcon??



Yup..
probably a prototype for the block 60.. although that is not an IRST in a true sense... more of a built in FLIR.

The J-10B has no two seater.. and probably by the looks of it.. wont have one..unless the PAF asks for one.
pilots will be trained on existing J-10BS's (i hate these chinese designations.. what was wrong with ABC?)


----------



## siegecrossbow

hahahaha said:


> How many of j 10 did pakistan order? And when will it enter service?



I think around 30-40 and they'll be purchased around 2014-2015?


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## Indian-Devil

PAF ordered 36 J-10B (2 squadron) fighters few years back. As per the news details, they are supposed to join PAF in 2014-15.


----------



## cloneman

hasnain0099 said:


> here is the Chinese one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> certainly not as advanced as JHMCS or HMSS



I 2007 or 2008 they displayed a helmet which is believed will to be used on the JXX.But you can only see it from the behind.


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## nwmalik

if u do a search of its photos, u will see how sexy it looks.


----------



## houshanghai

look at the pics of F-16 &#65288;DSI) vs j10b































Very interesting comparison

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## Hasnain2009

trident2010 said:


> Yes !!
> 
> I was also talking about the proportions. If you see any other fighter say F-16 or F-18, they looks fairly balanced. I am sure J-10 is a potent aircraft but I don't like its long look.
> 
> cheers



Do u know what is the length of PAK FA?
Its 20m, it looks more unbalanced;


----------



## Indian-Devil

Hasnain2009 said:


> Do u know what is the length of PAK FA?
> Its 20m, it looks more unbalanced;



Guys, how come just 1-2 mt difference in length make any aircraft unbalanced. There are so many other laws applied while designing an fighter aircraft. Do you think Sukhoi which is manufacturing fighter aircrafts from decade they are developing an unbalanced aircraft because its 20 mts long. BTW F-22 raptor is around 19 mt long. Will this logic will apply for F-22 also ??


----------



## SQ8

What does length have to do with unbalanced..
I surprised most of you who otherwise seem fairly knowledgeable are using the length of the jet to judge it.
The F-104 was one of the most ill proportioned looking fighters out there.. long slim body.. small thin razor sharp wings.. but it was good at what it did.
On the other hand.. look at the northdrop wings.. by all means they should be rolling end over end.. yet they arent.
Aircraft are designed using a lot more factors then length..
Any one want to know about the length of the SR-71?.. 

The T-50 is more wing and less fuselage.. blended wings, contoured fuselage .. all give the jet maximum lift area.
in fact the way its shaped in the nose probably generates a little lift.
Concurrently.. the J-10's shape is well suited for a high instantaneous rate.. 
And Im quite sure the designers did not look at it and think "hey thats too long.. it looks bad for feng shui.. ".

*Wow..the stuff u guys come up with.*

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## siegecrossbow

santro said:


> What does length have to do with unbalanced..
> I surprised most of you who otherwise seem fairly knowledgeable are using the length of the jet to judge it.
> The F-104 was one of the most ill proportioned looking fighters out there.. long slim body.. small thin razor sharp wings.. but it was good at what it did.
> On the other hand.. look at the northdrop wings.. by all means they should be rolling end over end.. yet they arent.
> Aircraft are designed using a lot more factors then length..
> Any one want to know about the length of the SR-71?..
> 
> The T-50 is more wing and less fuselage.. blended wings, contoured fuselage .. all give the jet maximum lift area.
> in fact the way its shaped in the nose probably generates a little lift.
> Concurrently.. the J-10's shape is well suited for a high instantaneous rate..
> And Im quite sure the designers did not look at it and think "hey thats too long.. it looks bad for feng shui.. ".
> 
> *Wow..the stuff u guys come up with.*



Agreed. Perhaps we can have an aircraft beauty contest in another thread.

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## krash

Indian-Devil said:


> Guys, how come just 1-2 mt difference in length make any aircraft unbalanced. There are so many other laws applied while designing an fighter aircraft. Do you think Sukhoi which is manufacturing fighter aircrafts from decade they are developing an unbalanced aircraft because its 20 mts long. BTW F-22 raptor is around 19 mt long. Will this logic will apply for F-22 also ??



u missed the point mate....he was saying exactly what your saying with regards to J-10b apparently being too long to be stable.

cheers

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## no_name

santro said:


> And Im quite sure the designers did not look at it and think "hey thats too long.. it looks bad for feng shui.. ".
> 
> *Wow..the stuff u guys come up with.*



ROFL


----------



## trident2010

santro said:


> What does length have to do with unbalanced..
> I surprised most of you who otherwise seem fairly knowledgeable are using the length of the jet to judge it.
> The F-104 was one of the most ill proportioned looking fighters out there.. long slim body.. small thin razor sharp wings.. but it was good at what it did.
> On the other hand.. look at the northdrop wings.. by all means they should be rolling end over end.. yet they arent.
> Aircraft are designed using a lot more factors then length..
> Any one want to know about the length of the SR-71?..
> 
> The T-50 is more wing and less fuselage.. blended wings, contoured fuselage .. all give the jet maximum lift area.
> in fact the way its shaped in the nose probably generates a little lift.
> Concurrently.. the J-10's shape is well suited for a high instantaneous rate..
> And Im quite sure the designers did not look at it and think "hey thats too long.. it looks bad for feng shui.. ".
> 
> *Wow..the stuff u guys come up with.*



No one is judging the performance of J-10 with only looks. However I still maintain that it looks longer than wide and hence look unbalanced. All the examples you gave are correct, however since we are all here discussing here about J-10 therefore I pointed out my observation. And I can see I am not the only person who thinks that. 

About the performance I am sure it will be very good.


----------



## wali87

Could anyone state the specs which the J-10B is pressumably gonna have?


----------



## MastanKhan

trident2010 said:


> No one is judging the performance of J-10 with only looks. However I still maintain that it looks longer than wide and hence look unbalanced. All the examples you gave are correct, however since we are all here discussing here about J-10 therefore I pointed out my observation. And I can see I am not the only person who thinks that.
> 
> About the performance I am sure it will be very good.





Hi,

Actually---the visuals tell a lot about the aircraft---to an observant eye---to an aeronautical design engineer. With a good computer programme and the know how---a competent analyst can tell you what a plane can do---.

Americans are the best at it.


----------



## Hasnain2009

Indian-Devil said:


> Guys, how come just 1-2 mt difference in length make any aircraft unbalanced. There are so many other laws applied while designing an fighter aircraft. Do you think Sukhoi which is manufacturing fighter aircrafts from decade they are developing an unbalanced aircraft because its 20 mts long. BTW F-22 raptor is around 19 mt long. Will this logic will apply for F-22 also ??



I m not saying PAK FA is unbalance, i was replying to the post of fellow indians who were saying that J-10b looks unbalanced even its 4m shorter in length as compared to PAK-FA.


----------



## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Actually---the visuals tell a lot about the aircraft---to an observant eye---to an aeronautical design engineer. With a good computer programme and the know how---a competent analyst can tell you what a plane can do---.
> 
> Americans are the best at it.



S'True.. but then again.. lets leave it to the aeronautical engineer to judge it.
Story:
A few years back I used to know some people who were working in IDS. Word is.. the Boss designed a new UAV with a very unusual design.. his subordinates were apprehensive but he pushed it through saying the design was sound. The pilot who was supposed to fly it had one look at the plane and told the Boss cum chief designer it wont fly... The boss was adamant.. the pilot insisted that it wont fly and he was willing to bet his salary on it.
When the day came.. true to his prediction.. the aircraft was uncontrollable.. and crashed after gaining a few meters.
The boss was furious and blamed the pilot(who had previously test flown all of IDS's designs) that it was his fault and he did not how to fly...the pilot true to his word.. said "I told you so".. and resigned that very day.. without even taking his salary.

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## AsianLion

FC-20 name is boring - it looks like a Football Club - Why not change the name to something better ? What is the actual name of fc-20 like jf-17's actual name is, "Thunder" why not fc-20 'a symbol title' have a name like *'Vulture' or 'fc-20 Vulture*'.

Any new recommendations ?


----------



## siegecrossbow

AsianUnion said:


> FC-20 name is boring - it looks like a Football Club - Why not change the name to something better ? What is the actual name of fc-20 like jf-17's actual name is, "Thunder" why not fc-20 'a symbol title' have a name like *'Vulture' or 'fc-20 Vulture*'.
> 
> Any new recommendations ?



Vulture is a terrible name (carrion eater). Why not just stick with Vigorous Dragon.

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## Areesh

siegecrossbow said:


> Vulture is a terrible name (carrion eater). Why not just stick with Vigorous Dragon.



Vigorous Dragon is cool.  

Vulture. A pathetic name indeed.


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## SomeGuy

Falcon would be an apt name.


----------



## S.U.R.B.

or probably the *FC-20* _*Shikra*_.

Shikra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



It suits i guess.

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## mjnaushad

S.U.R.B. said:


> or probably the *FC-20* _*Shikra*_.
> 
> Shikra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> It suits i guess.


How about FC-20 Shakira 

Shakira - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## SBD-3

mjnaushad said:


> How about FC-20 Shakira
> 
> Shakira - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Why not just tweak the name to FC-20 Sharika
listen to this song and replace kuri with FC-20 in the opening lines 
YouTube - Sharikan nu aag lagdi


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## AsianLion

Aren't there any better recommendations then loose dancing Shakira. 



siegecrossbow said:


> Vulture is a terrible name (carrion eater). Why not just stick with Vigorous Dragon.



Vigorous Dragon is Chinese, which goes fine with J-10. Am talking about a name for FC-20, which is for Pakistani export name. FC-20 sounds like a Football Club 20. 'Vulture' is Vulture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The recommendation was based on similarity of fc-20 to Vulture bird and Vulture bird is considered as a 'Raptor'. Don't you think so, it suits it ?


----------



## SBD-3

AsianUnion said:


> Aren't there any better recommendations then loose dancing Shakira.
> 
> 
> 
> Vigorous Dragon is Chinese, which goes fine with J-10. Am talking about a name for FC-20, which is for Pakistani export name. FC-20 sounds like a Football Club 20. 'Vulture' is Vulture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The recommendation was based on similarity of fc-20 to Vulture bird and Vulture bird is considered as a 'Raptor'. Don't you think so, it suits it ?


I think PAF designation would be FC-20 vanguard....looks good


----------



## AsianLion

hasnain0099 said:


> I think PAF designation would be FC-20 vanguard....looks good



Yup, Vanguard is a suitable designation for Fc-20 and it was given before but its was no more taken forward. It was called *F-10 Vanguard*. *Fc-20 Vanguard or Vulture*(not bad)


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## SBD-3

AsianUnion said:


> Yup, Vanguard is a suitable designation for Fc-20 and it was given before but its was no more taken forward. It was called *F-10 Vanguard*. *Fc-20 Vanguard or Vulture*(not bad)



I dont why do you like such a lame bird, guess you're from a wilderness where theres nothing but left over skeletons and hovering vultures..


----------



## conworldus

FC-20 Koala Bear!


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## no_name



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## SurvivoR

conworldus said:


> FC-20 Koala Bear!



LOL... Thats at least better than Vulture...

My suggestion... FC-20 Flying Panda


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## Manticore

on word ''devestator''

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## nwmalik

FC20 Lightning.

we already have JF17 Thunder, so will make nice pair


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## Hasnain2009



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## monitor

nwmalik said:


> FC20 Lightning.
> 
> we already have JF17 Thunder, so will make nice pair



No after thunder its come storm .
so the name should be FC-20 STORM.
or FC-20 LIGHTNING STORM


----------



## AsianLion

For FC-20 - No.1 = Vanguard, No.2 = Vulture, and No.3 = Devastator. 

How about *Fc-20, "Boom"*. 



hasnain0099 said:


> I dont why do you like such a lame bird, guess you're from a wilderness where theres nothing but left over skeletons and hovering vultures..



Because, Vulture looks sexy.



nwmalik said:


> FC20 Lightning.
> 
> We already have JF17 Thunder, so will make nice pair



F 35 is called Lightning, so its no use. "Storm Lightning", could be.


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## SBD-3

On one thought why not Dragon as J-10 looks just like Dragon, relatively long body with lesser wing span very strongly resembles the body structure of a dragon which is long and the wings are not as wide....

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## farhan_9909

FC-20 Stupid LoveRR.


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## Stealth_fighter

FC-nightmare


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## Stealth_fighter

Or probably FC-nameless


----------



## krash

AsianUnion said:


> For FC-20 - No.1 = Vanguard, No.2 = Vulture, and No.3 = Devastator.
> 
> Because, Vulture looks sexy.



bro are u sure which bird ur talking about??? In my view too "vulture" would not be an appropriate name......its a SCAVENGER for God's sake! and super SUPER ugly!

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## siegecrossbow

krash said:


> bro are u sure which bird ur talking about??? In my view too "vulture" would not be an appropriate name......its a SCAVENGER for God's sake! and super SUPER ugly!



I get it now. AsianUnion must be a starcraft fan .


----------



## wangrong



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## Arsalan

i think it must be enemy *@$$ buster*...


----------



## S.U.R.B.

As far as it's role in the region.

My suggestion will be,

*FC-20 Dominator*

or probably

*FC-10 Dominator*

(because i personally don't like the number 20 after FC.)


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## deathfromabove

For the love of god people, it does not matter how intimidating the name sounds but what is does in actual war/conflict scenario, really counts.

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## AsianLion

Okay! , FC-20 "Vanguard" sounds the best for Pakistani export air-craft and in later editions it may be called Fc-20 "Stealth Vanguard" or FC-20 SV in abbreviated form.
FC-20 "Boom" is also fine - anyone hates it? . 


deathfromabove said:


> For the love of god people, it does not matter how intimidating the name sounds but what is does in actual war/conflict scenario, really counts.


Like no-one knows !!! 
But there should be a proper name, FC-20 ? Duh !!! J-10 Fierce Dragon is at-least has a proper name. 


krash said:


> bro are u sure which bird ur talking about??? In my view too "vulture" would not be an appropriate name......its a SCAVENGER for God's sake! and super SUPER ugly!


See the pics and what is super ugly. 
vulture - Google Search


siegecrossbow said:


> I get it now. AsianUnion must be a starcraft fan .


Thanks !!! Have ended the game.


hasnain0099 said:


> On one thought why not Dragon as J-10 looks just like Dragon, relatively long body with lesser wing span very strongly resembles the body structure of a dragon which is long and the wings are not as wide....


J-10 Fierce Dragon is already a Chinese name allotted to it. Recommendations for Fc-20 was asked.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

AsianUnion said:


> Okay! , FC-20 "Vanguard" sounds the best for Pakistani export air-craft and in later editions it may be called Fc-20 "Stealth Vanguard" or FC-20 SV in abbreviated form.
> FC-20 "Boom" is also fine - anyone hates it? .
> 
> Like no-one knows !!!
> But there should be a proper name, FC-20 ? Duh !!! J-10 Fierce Dragon is at-least has a proper name.
> 
> See the pics and what is super ugly.
> vulture - Google Search
> 
> Thanks !!! Have ended the game.
> 
> J-10 Fierce Dragon is already a Chinese name allotted to it. Recommendations for Fc-20 was asked.



This is all Super Sh*t ! 
You or any one else here do not have authority for this, Its all PAF's Job Kid. They Must have much better names in their minds.
You better get a pig and name it vulture to fulfill your desire.
keep off with the vulture name for Fc-20


----------



## AsianLion

danger-zone said:


> This is all Super Sh*t !
> You or any one else here do not have authority for this, Its all PAF's Job Kid. They Must have much better names in their minds.
> You better get a pig and name it vulture to fulfill your desire.
> keep off with the vulture name for Fc-20


Listen are you drunk or what...Your comment is more baseless piece of shi*t than what has been provided by me. Am just recommending not authorising it. It is indeed PAF's job or Pakistan's job to name its aircraft but FC-20 Vanguard is already a name given to it - look right above picture: Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You are no-one to tell me that Vulture cannot be recommended,
Now jerk off !!!


----------



## SBD-3

AsianUnion said:


> Okay! , FC-20 "Vanguard" sounds the best for Pakistani export air-craft and in later editions it may be called Fc-20 "Stealth Vanguard" or FC-20 SV in abbreviated form.
> FC-20 "Boom" is also fine - anyone hates it? .
> 
> Like no-one knows !!!
> But there should be a proper name, FC-20 ? Duh !!! J-10 Fierce Dragon is at-least has a proper name.
> 
> See the pics and what is super ugly.
> vulture - Google Search
> 
> Thanks !!! Have ended the game.
> 
> J-10 Fierce Dragon is already a Chinese name allotted to it. Recommendations for Fc-20 was asked.



FYI J-10's official name in PLAAF is Vigourous Dragon. Fierce Dragon (Xialong) is designated for JFT

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## DANGER-ZONE

AsianUnion said:


> Listen are you drunk or what...Your comment is *more baseless piece of shi*t than what has been provided by me*. Am just recommending not authorising it. It is indeed PAF's job or Pakistan's job to name its aircraft but FC-20 Vanguard is already a name given to it - look right above picture: Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> You are no-one to tell me that Vulture cannot be recommended,
> Now jerk off !!!



and ur no one to recommend Fc-20 a name.
wikki isn't a credible source mate,besides it doesn't states anywhere that FC-20 is Vanguard, bring any other source naming FC-20 Vanguard ,specially Chinese. even wiki says F-10 Vanguard not Fc-20. F-10 is an other story, it nothing have to do with FC-20. its more likely an alternative name of J-10.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10#Variants
kid FC-20 isn't a finalized bird, how come any one give it a name.
i ve came to know about six months ago at PDF that FC-20's NATO name is "VILLAIN",posted by some Chinese guy but no proof. 

So better keep Vulture out of PDF and FC-20


----------



## MastanKhan

AsianUnion said:


> Listen are you drunk or what...Your comment is more baseless piece of shi*t than what has been provided by me. Am just recommending not authorising it. It is indeed PAF's job or Pakistan's job to name its aircraft but FC-20 Vanguard is already a name given to it - look right above picture: Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> You are no-one to tell me that Vulture cannot be recommended,
> Now jerk off !!!





Sir,

30000 plus members on this board---if everybody got ticked off at the other and starting using vulgar comments---there will be chaos--------.

I am surprised that none of the moderators have taken any action against your comments so far.

People---have our standards gone down so much.

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## AsianLion

Negative MastanKhan, You need to first squibble at the comment below by dangerzone than becoming to smart to use inflaming here.



danger-zone said:


> This is all Super Sh*t !
> You better get a pig and name it vulture to fulfill your desire.
> keep off with the vulture name for Fc-20



Rest, it was just a name recommended for FC-20 which is Vanguard or Vulture and would keep it to those recommendations by me!


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## SBD-3

AsianUnion said:


> Negative MastanKhan, You need to first squibble at the comment below by dangerzone than becoming to smart to use inflaming here.
> 
> 
> 
> Rest, it was just a name recommended for FC-20 which is Vanguard or Vulture and would keep it to those recommendations by me!



by The way, Mastan is one of the most undisputedly respected posters around so using such language is highly inappropriate. If someone has fallen below the bar, you should not jump into the gutter too just to reply him. I hope you will understand. A good poster though floats his ideas but also respects the ideas of others

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## SQ8

Btw Danger zone.. I agree its the job of the PAF to decide the name it wants to give.. and most likely it will be called the FC-20.. since the F-6 was never referred to as the farmer by the PAF personnel...and I have yet to hear an informal name for the F-6 as well.. unlike the FT-5 which I have heard as being referred to as "Kodu".

On the subject of popular name giving..
the first US shuttle was going to be called something else.. but on the insistence of hundreds if not thousands of Star trek fans it was named the enterprise.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Numbers are the best names---non personal----no humiliation attached---no degrading factor attached.

Let say----we name a system Saifullah---the sword of God---which is taken out by the enemy T90 or Arjun on regular basis ( just an example )---now you have allowed the enemy to make fun of the Sword of Allah---you have made the enemy make fun of our God---.

But why some of us looking for arab sounding names----don't we pakistanis have our own pakistani heroes-----are we lacking in our local heritage and heroes---are our pakistani heroes any less than those arab heroes---isn't the heroism of our own warriors of the same level as any other hero.

Why must we kowtow to an arab name.

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## sergente rehan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Numbers are the best names---non personal----no humiliation attached---no degrading factor attached.
> 
> Let say----we name a system Saifullah---the sword of God---which is taken out by the enemy T90 or Arjun on regular basis ( just an example )---now you have allowed the enemy to make fun of the Sword of Allah---you have made the enemy make fun of our God---.
> 
> But why some of us looking for arab sounding names----don't we pakistanis have our own pakistani heroes-----are we lacking in our local heritage and heroes---are our pakistani heroes any less than those arab heroes---isn't the heroism of our own warriors of the same level as any other hero.
> 
> Why must we kowtow to an arab name.



Maybe bcz it's part of our traditions to name our tanks, ships, jets according to the famous battle's, historic heroes as they were the first fighters & defenders of Islam and Muslims.


----------



## General General

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Numbers are the best names---non personal----no humiliation attached---no degrading factor attached.
> 
> Let say----we name a system Saifullah---the sword of God---which is taken out by the enemy T90 or Arjun on regular basis ( just an example )---now you have allowed the enemy to make fun of the Sword of Allah---you have made the enemy make fun of our God---.
> 
> But why some of us looking for arab sounding names----don't we pakistanis have our own pakistani heroes-----are we lacking in our local heritage and heroes---are our pakistani heroes any less than those arab heroes---isn't the heroism of our own warriors of the same level as any other hero.
> 
> Why must we kowtow to an arab name.



Yes, its can be named FC-20 Waheed Murad. 
But jokes apart, jet fighters have been mostly named after a predator, like Tomcat (F-14), Eagle (F-15), Falcon (F-16), Hornet (F-18), Raptor (F-22), Tiger (F-5), Nighthawk (F-117) etc. Or it has been named after a force of nature like Thunder (JF-17), Lightning (F-35), Tornado (B-45, GR1), Thunderbolt (A-10) etc. Therefore, it is unlikely a jet fighter will be named after a person. Although, personally, I thought Vigorous Dragon was a perfectly suitable name.


----------



## krash

AsianUnion said:


> \
> See the pics and what is super ugly.
> vulture - Google Search



so u see nothing ugly in those pics??? 

a bald, leather neck freak is what it is......nothing majestic, beautiful or even remotely cool about that bird.....and again it eats the dead scraps left by other more respectable predators....... not the kind of lazy a$$, honor less image one wants to have associated with ones own *FIGHTER* aircraft

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## MastanKhan

sergente rehan said:


> Maybe bcz it's part of our traditions to name our tanks, ships, jets according to the famous battle's, historic heroes as they were the first fighters & defenders of Islam and Muslims.



Hi,

What tradition----who gave then a right for a tradition---those battles were not fought by us---we had nothing to do with those battles---they are a part of islamic history---and that is where it ends---.

Our birds are fine as they are---the names are as suitable as they can be---pak needs to change the names of its missiles and take out the names of the afghan warriors----as well as the battles---unless they are ours---. 

There are many a naval, army, air force, rangers, FC men who laid down their lives for the nation. It is their right to have something named after them.

Be pakistani, have pakistani identity---have pakistani integrity---have pakistani recognition---be someone---be a pakistani.

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## Jigs

Why not name it Phoenix. 


A phoenix is a mythical bird that is a fire spirit with a colorful plumage and a tail of gold and scarlet (or purple, blue, and green according to some legends). It has a 500 to 1000 year life-cycle, near the end of which it builds itself a nest of twigs that then ignites; both nest and bird burn fiercely and are reduced to ashes, from which a new, young phoenix or phoenix egg arises, reborn anew to live again.

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## Stealth_fighter

Jigs said:


> Why not name it Phoenix.
> 
> 
> A phoenix is a mythical bird that is a fire spirit with a colorful plumage and a tail of gold and scarlet (or purple, blue, and green according to some legends). It has a 500 to 1000 year life-cycle, near the end of which it builds itself a nest of twigs that then ignites; both nest and bird burn fiercely and are reduced to ashes, from which a new, young phoenix or phoenix egg arises, reborn anew to live again.


bcause phoenix is a myth and j-10 is reality


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## siegecrossbow

Stealth_fighter said:


> bcause phoenix is a myth and j-10 is reality



Didn't know that Dragons are real lol.

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## Stealth_fighter



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## Stealth_fighter

the people who says its bad shaped/ugly looking plane ,they must have some problems in there eyes


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## Stealth_fighter

siegecrossbow said:


> Didn't know that Dragons are real lol.


jian-10 means dragon?never knew that..lol


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## PurpleButcher

how about J-10 Jangli Dus Numbri


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## siegecrossbow

Stealth_fighter said:


> jian-10 means dragon?never knew that..lol



No the nickname is vigorous dragon. The JF-17 is likewise nicknamed the fierce dragon.


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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> No the nickname is vigorous dragon. The JF-17 is likewise nicknamed the fierce dragon.



any updates about the induction of J-10B process in PLAAF? and will it be designated as J-10B?...( I havent heard any official designation from PLAAF yet)


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## gypgypgyp

hasnain0099 said:


> any updates about the induction of J-10B process in PLAAF? and will it be designated as J-10B?...( I havent heard any official designation from PLAAF yet)





Currently on chinese furom hot topic is about

this baby









this baby








this baby




this baby




this baby





and romour about 4th generation


not much news about J-10b

but from my view, once J-10b paint in grey colour, PLAAF will start play with new toy and they will need quiet some time to reach conclusion.

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## SBD-3

is this J-11BS or J-15?....can't actually see the canards from straight side view. But by the look of conopy in the second pic , I can assume its a J-11BS rather than J-15




pl correct me if i am wrong


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## Hasnain2009

wangrong said:


>



lovely....and...killer, will J10b perform in Nov air show?


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## SBD-3

Hasnain2009 said:


> lovely....and...killer, will J10b perform in Nov air show?



This is J-10AY not J-10B and J-10B's existence is not acknowledged by PLAAF or CAC, how can you expect a performance....

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## Stealth_fighter

siegecrossbow said:


> No the nickname is vigorous dragon. The JF-17 is likewise nicknamed the fierce dragon.


bro its nice to see that an aircraft having nickname, surname, initials etc


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## gypgypgyp

hasnain0099 said:


> is this J-11BS or J-15?....can't actually see the canards from straight side view. But by the look of conopy in the second pic , I can assume its a J-11BS rather than J-15
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pl correct me if i am wrong




I think yellow one is J-15, grey is J-11BS. both aircraft in pic is double seat.


yellow development phase

grey massive production phase

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## aimarraul

expecting the great performance from PAF in the upcoming airshow

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## siegecrossbow

Looks like the paintworks improved a great deal. I wonder when we'll be able to see a dragon insignia on the J-10.

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## Brotherhood

*J-10 fighter jet to cut a dash at air show - People's Daily Online* November 05, 2010 




*A PLA air force officer introduces the J-10 fighter jet of the August 1st Aerobatic Team to reporters at a military base in Tianjin on Tuesday. [Photo/China Daily]*

The new paint scheme for China's most advanced fighter jets used by the military aerobatic team will make its debut later this month, the air force of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) announced on Thursday.

In contrast to the usual decision-making process involved in selecting the paint scheme for the planes used by the famous August 1st Aerobatic Team, it was not the air force that chose the latest design, but military fans.

"It looks like an amazing three-dimensional sword when the aircraft rockets into the sky," said a PLA air force senior colonel involved in the project who declined to give his name for security reasons.

"It will be the first time that a three-dimensional design appears before world aerobatic teams," he said.

Seven J-10 aircraft painted in a combination of dark blue, "China red" and silvery white will soon fly to Zhuhai city in Guangdong province to prepare for performances at a one-week international air show starting on Nov 16.

As one of the five major international air shows around the world, the China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition has always attracted elite aerobatic teams from home and abroad. 

The unnamed officer said the military decided to redesign the paint scheme of the J-10 fighter jets in 2009 after many netizens had criticized it for being "too garish" and not representative of the plane's superior performance.

The Central Academy of Fine Arts was selected to carry out the design work. Zhang Yutong, one of the designers, said it was challenging to live up to the expectations of military fans fascinated by the J-10.

"As it is the most advanced fighter jet in China, their high expectations are understandable," Zhang said, adding that some fans had even demanded that the J-10 be painted with an open-mouthed shark on it.

The designers put three paint schemes for the J-10 on the Internet in June to enable people to choose the best. In 18 days, 1.15 million netizens from 117 cities across the country and overseas participated in the poll. 

Among the three schemes, which featured a sword, a dragon and a thunderbolt, the sword proved to be the most popular.

"The dark blue represents the calmness of the Chinese air force and it makes the J-10 look more delicate and distinctive," Zhang said.

The domestically developed J-10 fighter jet, which represents the highest level of Chinese manufacturing, is a very good platform for combat, according to Senior Colonel Yan Feng, who is in charge of the August 1st Aerobatic Team.

"We pilots have a strong sense of pride every time we take off," said the 46-year-old command pilot.

Yan also said his team is now among the top aerobatic teams around the world. "Our intensity of action and density of planes during flights can match another two teams in the world, which fly third-generation fighter jets," he said, referring to the Thunderbirds of the US Air Force and the Russian Knights of the Russian Air Force.

The August 1st Aerobatic Team is currently conducting test flights to adjust to the plane's new design, which could have an impact on their performance during dangerous stunts, Yan said.

Source: China Daily

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## aimarraul



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## Brotherhood

*PLA's 7 J-10 jet fighters with new coating to make debut - People's Daily Online* November 05, 2010





Zhang Yutong (C), one of the designers for the new coating of Bayi Aerobatic Team of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force briefs to media in Beijing, capital of China, Nov. 2, 2010. Seven new J-10 jet fighters of Bayi Aerobatic Team with new coating, were to make their debut in the 8th China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition which would open in Zhuhai of Guangdong on Nov. 16, 2010. (Xinhua/Yang Guang)





A J-10 jet fighter of Bayi Aerobatic Team of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force, with its new coating, is seen in a hangar in Beijing, capital of China, Nov. 2, 2010. Seven new J-10 jet fighters of Bayi Aerobatic Team with new coating, were to make their debut in the 8th China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition which would open in Zhuhai of Guangdong on Nov. 16, 2010. (Xinhua/Yang Guang)

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## Brotherhood

*PLA air force preps for Zhuhai Air Show - People's Daily Online*

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## Stealth_fighter

wow wicked plane man...i wonder about the systems onboard


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## abaseen99

gypgypgyp said:


> Currently on chinese furom hot topic is about
> 
> this baby
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this baby
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this baby
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this baby
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this baby
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and romour about 4th generation
> 
> 
> not much news about J-10b
> 
> but from my view, once J-10b paint in grey colour, PLAAF will start play with new toy and they will need quiet some time to reach conclusion.



these r j 11a r b not j 10b


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## abaseen99

Hasnain2009 said:


> lovely....and...killer, will J10b perform in Nov air show?



yes very nice these r j 10b


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## abaseen99

Jian-10B (J-10B) Multirole Fighter Aircraft - SinoDefence.com for all to visit


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## abaseen99

Chengdu J-10 Sinocanard also visit with regards


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## SBD-3

gypgypgyp said:


> I think yellow one is J-15, grey is J-11BS. both aircraft in pic is double seat.
> 
> 
> yellow development phase
> 
> grey massive production phase



I agree with the color scheme but looking at the pictures posted see here





but looking at the J-15 pic




you see a clear difference i.e. J-15 is a single seater while the plane in yellow in first pic is a two seater which made me think about it being J-11BS rather than J-15 I had another reason as well 
now look at the second picture and note the canopy design




and now see the MKI canopy




they are similar which made me think that these airframes (both yellow and grey) are same i.e. J-11BS

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## Stealth_fighter

whats that thingy raising up behind the canopy


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## siegecrossbow

Stealth_fighter said:


> whats that thingy raising up behind the canopy



Airbrake. Used to reduce airspeed during a landing.

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## houshanghai

http://tv.sohu.com/upload/swf/20101...lt.cjdby.net/thread-1007933-1-1.html&topBar=1

81 air show team videos

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## nightcrawler

This is showing bluish flame??; unlikely that of Sukhois & MiGs which has a kind-off orange efflux indicating high content of Dinitrogen monoxide (NitrousOxide)



> GM-1 (Göring Mischung 1), colloquially known as Haha-Gerät (Ha-Ha Device) was a system for injecting nitrous oxide (laughing gas) into aircraft engines that was used by the Luftwaffe in World War II to boost the high-altitude performance of their aircraft. A different system for low-altitude boost known as MW 50 was also used, although GM-1 and MW 50 were rarely used on the same engine. However, MW-50 was not a nitrous-oxide system, but a Methanol-water injection system, which injected a mixture of methanol and water into the cylinders to cool the mix. Cooling causes the air to become denser, therefore allowing more into each cylinder for a given volume. This is the same principle that intercoolers and cold-air intakes work on.

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## wangrong



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## Brotherhood

*J-10 jet fighters of Bayi Aerobatic Team arrive in Zhuhai, China's Guangdong - People's Daily Online* November 09, 2010 




A ground crew member exams a J-10 jet fighter in Tianjin, east China, Nov. 5, 2010. Seven new J-10 jet fighters of Bayi Aerobatic Team with new coating arrived in Zhuhai, south China's Guangdong Province, on Monday, and they would make their debut in the 8th China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition which was slated to open on Nov. 16. (Xinhua/Yang Guang)





Team members of China's Bayi Aerobatic Team (L-R) Shan Wenping, Guo Fuyong, Li Bin, Cao Zhen, Wei Guoyi, Jiang Jinquan, Cao Zhenzhong pose for a photo in front of a J-10 jet fighter with new coating in Tianjin, east China, Nov. 5, 2010. Seven new J-10 jet fighters of Bayi Aerobatic Team with new coating arrived in Zhuhai, south China's Guangdong Province, on Monday, and they would make their debut in the 8th China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition which was slated to open on Nov. 16. (Xinhua/Yang Guang)





Cao Zhen, the captain of China's Bayi Aerobatic Team, salutes on a J-10 jet fighter in Tianjin, east China, Nov. 5, 2010. Seven new J-10 jet fighters of Bayi Aerobatic Team with new coating arrived in Zhuhai, south China's Guangdong Province, on Monday, and they would make their debut in the 8th China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition which was slated to open on Nov. 16. (Xinhua/Yang Guang)

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## S.U.R.B.

siegecrossbow said:


> Airbrake. Used to reduce airspeed during a landing.



Come on siege , that's a camera man hiding behind he needs some fresh air as well.

For the questioner, here is some more stuff of such type.







Ever thought, what are these?












And these are for the JFT.


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## Brotherhood

*Bayi Aerobatic Team's J-10 jets arrive in Zhuhai - People's Daily Online*
November 09, 2010





n Nov. 8, 2010, Seven J-10 jet fighters of the Bayi Aerobatic Team arrived in Sanzao Airport in Zhuhai, south China's Guangdong Province after two hours flight. They will make their debut in the 8th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition. (Zhao Xin/CFP)

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## houshanghai

http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMjIxMzk5NDky/v.swf



http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMjIxNDE4NzY0/v.swf


http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMjIxMTgxNzA4/v.swf

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## nightcrawler

Do correct me if I am wrong; but aren't these *spoilers* besides engine on either side


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## S.U.R.B.

nightcrawler said:


> Do correct me if I am wrong; but aren't these *spoilers* besides engine on either side



No buddy these are air brakes.Fully extended.

The difference between spoilers & air brakes is that air brakes are designed to increase drag while making little change to lift, while the spoilers infact greatly reduce lift while making little change to drag.

I'll try to post some material on this a bit later in relevant thread, if you have further queries.


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## Dil Pakistan

Going back on the discussion of naming FC-20.

How about: *FC-20 Terminator*

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## Jungibaaz

Dil Pakistan said:


> Going back on the discussion of naming FC-20.
> 
> How about: *FC-20 Terminator*



that would be awesome but....

the su-37 already has that name

how about FC-20 Arnie?


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## Dil Pakistan

OK then how about:

*FC-20 Widow Maker*


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## Stealth_fighter

INSTEAD OF FC-20 WHICH MEANS FIGHTER CHINA,IT SHOULD BE FP-20


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## Pak1Samurai

PF2O pak fighter 20 :p


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## no_name

Jungibaaz said:


> that would be awesome but....
> 
> the su-37 already has that name
> 
> how about FC-20 Arnie?



FC-20 Commando? lol. 
FC-20 Eraser
We're gonna dig up all movie titles that have arnie starred in it.


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## wali87

Guys could someone please upload some ORIGINAL pictures of the J-10B ? not J-10A


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## TaimiKhan

wali87 said:


> Guys could someone please upload some ORIGINAL pictures of the J-10B ? not J-10A













http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3wZSwFvZz...s/aw6C2PDo4Oo/s1600/j10b-1254313327_79489.jpg

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## Arsalan

wali87 said:


> Guys could someone please upload some ORIGINAL pictures of the J-10B ? not J-10A



The pics of J-10B are available every where on net.
I think you are asking about the FC-20, the one PAF is interested in.
It is sometimes reported that it is something different from the J-10b but nothing is made public about it as yet.

Here are some J-10B pics, 











you can easily differentiate this with the J-10 by the air inlet and shark fin tail and slanted radar housing..





the top one is J-10B while the bottom is the J-10!

regards!

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## a1b2c145

china 4th

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## wangrong



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## Mughal-Prince

a1b2c145 said:


> china 4th


Woo What is this ??? I can clearly see 2 V Stabilizers (rudder) it seems to be the famous J-10 C Twin Engine model  ... interesting vvvery interesting ...


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## SBD-3

princeiftikharmirza said:


> Woo What is this ??? I can clearly see 2 V Stabilizers (rudder) it seems to be the famous J-10 C Twin Engine model  ... interesting vvvery interesting ...



yes indeed....this was what i have posted again and again that china will develop J-10 development before gearing up for J-20 (J-XX) here. I had a pic of Chinese pilot with J-10C drawing board but lost it


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## SBD-3

here it is

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## khurasaan1

good job guyz great pics ......


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## siegecrossbow

Ahem that is just a picture of two August First J-10s flying in tandem.


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## abaseen99

Recently, China announced the J-10B fighter plane.

The aircraft is the latest version of Chinas fourth generation fighter aircraft J-10, beling similar to FC-1, it used the clam-type inlet, abandoned the traditional rectangular inlet design, in the case of the normal work of the aircraft engine ensured, the aircraft was simplified design, reduced the moving parts of the inlet, in reducing the weight of the aircraft at the same time, also reduced the cross section of the aircrafts radar.

J-10B was installed photovoltaic targeting device at right anterior side of the cockpit, which is similar to J-10 and Su-27 China equiped. The device includes the infrared search, track sensors and laser range finder, which can detect enemy targets passively without startup Radar passive case detection of enemy targets, reduces ones own aircraft probability of detection.

J-10B was installed electronic countermeasures devices, which are located on both sides of the cockpit and engine vents on both sides of the end of the wire array, as well as the electronic module at the top of the vertical tail, it is believed to be mainly used for electronic countermeasures.
some detail of j 10B.


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## gypgypgyp

princeiftikharmirza said:


> Woo What is this ??? I can clearly see 2 V Stabilizers (rudder) it seems to be the famous J-10 C Twin Engine model  ... interesting vvvery interesting ...





Your pic was taken in SAC, the model show at the bottom part of pic is SAC 4th gen fighter. But they lost the tender, so no such thing any more in A2A 4th gen fighter.













The 1st pic design is from CAS
The 2nd pic design is from SAS

left upper side win the competition, and CAS award the project with name J-20

That is why you see a lot CG work like this












or this












[/IMG]


The detail has not been confirmed yet, but general shape is somewhere around it


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## nightcrawler

Behind the cockpit the black pit or something ....Is it some kindoff a lifting engine's place; just like the Yak-38?? for vertical lifting/landing


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## gypgypgyp

nightcrawler said:


> Behind the cockpit the black pit or something ....Is it some kindoff a lifting engine's place; just like the Yak-38?? for vertical lifting/landing



I think it is purely because the low skill of CG maker. This pic is combine several aircraft together.

The J-20 is pure A2A heavy fighter, its role is very similar to YF-22, not F-22A or F-35


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## SBD-3

gypgypgyp said:


> Your pic was taken in SAC, the model show at the bottom part of pic is SAC 4th gen fighter. But they lost the tender, so no such thing any more in A2A 4th gen fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 1st pic design is from CAS
> The 2nd pic design is from SAS
> 
> left upper side win the competition, and CAS award the project with name J-20
> 
> That is why you see a lot CG work like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The detail has not been confirmed yet, but general shape is somewhere around it



AFAIK There are three designs,One JH-X, one resembling S-37 and other as speculated in common here are the my bets

1-JH-X





2-J-XX1




3-J-20


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## gypgypgyp

hasnain0099 said:


> AFAIK There are three designs,One JH-X, one resembling S-37 and other as speculated in common here are the mine two bets
> 
> 1-JH-X
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2-J-XX1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3-J-20



Actually due the J-20 is pure A2A fighter(super multi-role aircraft which can against F-22A and attack ground unit is really out of China ability), China indeed need a multi-role X Gen fighter or JH aircraft. However the project was not formally launch yet, SAS is useing its own funding and support from the corporation to finish the aircraft(rumour J-16/ CAS is focusing on J-20, SAS is the only insititution can work on it). But it is still in early stage and there is no commitment from PLAAF to buy. The design may use the one lost in tender(2nd pic left hand side), they also may select other design which keeped internally. No matter what is it gonna looks like, it will ba a huge aircraft, larger than J-20.

Regard with J-XX1, I don't know much about it. Can you provide a specify info?

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## SBD-3

gypgypgyp said:


> Actually due the J-20 is pure A2A fighter(super multi-role aircraft which can against F-22A and attack ground unit is really out of China ability), China indeed need a multi-role X Gen fighter or JH aircraft. However the project was not formally launch yet, SAS is useing its own funding and support from the corporation to finish the aircraft(rumour J-16/ CAS is focusing on J-20, SAS is the only insititution can work on it). But it is still in early stage and there is no commitment from PLAAF to buy. The design may use the one lost in tender(2nd pic left hand side), they also may select other design which keeped internally. No matter what is it gonna looks like, it will ba a huge aircraft, larger than J-20.
> 
> Regard with J-XX1, I don't know much about it. Can you provide a specify info?



Yeah sure be glad to


> "Flight Home
> SubscribeYou are in: Home  News Article
> DATE:03/04/01
> SOURCE:Flight International
> USA rethinks view of China's next generation XXJ fighter
> 
> The USA is revising its assessment of the Chinese advanced fighter, which is known by its US Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) designation of "XXJ". At the same time, Shenyang is developing a multirole version of the J-8II air defence fighter.
> 
> Washington sources say the original information provided by the ONI in 1997, showing a design resembling the Boeing F-15 Eagle, has been superseded. The agency predicted the XXJ would be multirole, have stealth features and was expected to enter Chinese air force and navy service by around 2015.
> 
> *This estimate has been revised to 2010. Both Chinese fighter companies - Chengdu and Shenyang - are thought to be working on advanced combat aircraft concepts.*
> 
> Indications are that the XXJ will have a canard configuration and be equipped with twin thrust-vectoring engines. The design seems influenced by *Sukhoi's advanced concepts such as the Su-37 and forward-swept wing S-37 Berkut, suggesting that Shenyang, which has a link with the Russian manufacturer dating from the early 1990s, is the developer*. Combining a foreplane, a tailplane and thrust vectoring enhances manoeuvrability.
> 
> Engines are likely to be a version of the Wopen WP15 in the 26,000lb-thrust (115kN) class. Pictures of a large engine equipped with thrust-vectoring nozzles was displayed at last year's Zuhai aerospace show.
> 
> The fighter is expected to have a 20,000kg (44,000lb) empty weight and incorporate a fly-by-wire control system similar to that developed by Shenyang and tested in the J-8IIACT programme.
> 
> Meanwhile, Shenyang is building a new multirole version of the twin-engined J-8II fighter, reflecting China's doctrinal shift towards offensive capabilities. Creating a new version of a dated design underlines the country's urgency in building up its strike forces.
> 
> Taiwanese and US sources say the J-8IIC is a J-8IID development, incorporating the latter's in-flight refuelling system and true, instead of secondary, air-to-ground role.
> 
> The aircraft is equipped either with a new Chinese-developed dual mode radar or the Russian Phazotron Zhuk-8II (acquired for the F-811M export fighter). Both have a 70km (38nm) range.
> 
> Other likely enhancements include a new electronic warfare system and an upgraded cockpit with multifunction displays, head-up display and the new data-link.
> 
> The fighter will be powered by a Wopen WP14 engine developing up to 16,215lb thrust, an improvement on the J-8IID's 14,550lb-thrust WP13A.


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## gypgypgyp

hasnain0099 said:


> Yeah sure be glad to



a lot mistake in article.

however I think they are talking about J-16(multi-role aircraft I mentioned before). J-16 is not funded by PLAAF yet, and I don't think it can came out any time before 2020. Currently SAS's development doesn't mean they are awarded the project, it's just a pre-study phase(maybe a prototype). PLAAF will have a tender for multi-role aircraft as well, no one know who gonna win. J-16 receive a project name and long time pre-study certainly will get SAS a upper hand in tender, nothing more than that.

Usually people say SAS get the project mainly because CAS is focusing on the most important project for PLAAF, they may lack in resource to win multi-role tender. (SAS current project J-15 is much easier than X Gen)


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## houshanghai

China-made aircraft engine has started mass production of three generations of an annual output of 100
Posted on November 13th, 2010


-made F-11B fighter aircraft has been using domestic&#8221; Taihang &#8220;high-thrust turbofan engine. the Zhuhai air show appearance in the last row is too large thrust turbofan engine.

in 1956 by a small high-temperature materials , to the current annual income of nearly 3 million, Steel Research Gaona (300 034) has become the field of high temperature alloys the most advanced technology, production types, one of the most complete. Currently, the company achieved more than 20&#37; per year steady growth, but to the world-class high-temperature alloy business forward, Steel Research Gaona is on the upstream and downstream enterprises in the search for goals, hopes through mergers and acquisitions to achieve leapfrog development. Recently, high-sodium, general manager of Iron and Steel Research Zhaoming Han for the first time to face the media, about the company in the field of high-temperature alloy development and growth process.

&#8220;the old&#8221; national mission GEM Enterprises

Steel Institute was established in 2002 with high sodium, high-temperature materials by Steel Institute and IAS Powder Metallurgy Research Center&#8217;s core quality assets through the merger, the actual controller is the SASAC, mainly engaged in high-temperature aerospace alloy materials development, production and sales of its predecessor, steel, high temperature materials IAS was created in 1956. From initial planning to the Main Board listing, the listing was changed to small plates, to take aim, GEM, until December 2009 was successfully listed on the GEM, after 54 years of ups and downs, steel, called the GEM research in high-sodium the oldest listed companies.

different origin, different natural doomed mission. As aerospace materials supply chain in an important one, is satisfied that the business of Iron and Steel Research has been involved in the high national strategic interests. &#8220;We must complete the task of the State, but also have benefits.&#8221; Zhao Minghan repeatedly emphasized that the company assumed the national mission.

According to reports, in our third generation fighter engine has a ton of multiple, involving a total of multiple components, including an indispensable component is satisfied by the high production of Iron and Steel Research. the part before the country can not produce, but as it involves military secrets, not to sell abroad in China, R & D component of the task falls on the study of high steel satisfied, the company ultimately fail in their mission. At present, only the steel of this study can produce parts with high sodium. The beginning of the production only a few kilograms per year for one or two engines, to 2007, the part needs a sudden heavy volume, you need to supply more than 60 copies, 2008,2009 demand is reached in more than 100 copies . companies to raise emergency funds, the equipment, but production lines are qualified construction period and production of modulation requires a long process.

in the next three years, from the material under the Task Force members to put a lot of energy, 3 years, there is little rest. Also, because the state approved the project takes time, Steel Research Gaona first Dianqian independent research and development on their own. Hard work pays off in 2009, the company&#8217;s shipments to the state expected production to meet the user requirements.

&#8220;Company executives are working to shareholders. Iron and Steel Research Gaona state-owned enterprises, the former shareholders of the state, materials related to national defense and national security, the State must be responsible, this is a mission; Now the company listed on the GEM, raising funds of 5.5 billion, our net assets have more than 8 million into a shareholder which also joined the ordinary investors, they voted the money, we have for they are responsible, can not be discounted, This is another mission. &#8220;Zhao Minghan words full of sense of mission and responsibility.

civilian proportion will be raised to 70%



steel research products with high sodium current is casting high temperature alloys, wrought superalloy products and new high temperature alloys, The company has a casting capacity of 920 tons high-temperature alloys, wrought superalloy 150 tons, 15 tons of new high-temperature alloys. Iron and Steel Research Gaona 2009 revenue of nearly 3 billion, 60% of the products for aerospace customers.

in the company&#8217;s revenue structure, the military accounted for 60%, 40% civilian. Zhao Minghan that military products is very important, demand is very stable, to bring stability to the company&#8217;s sales revenue and net profit; Moreover, the field of aerospace materials company which is one of the industries supported by the state, the future will benefit from the China Aviation The rapid development of aerospace and a substantial investment. But the disadvantages are also obvious that there are limits on the scale of a year&#8217;s demand is only so much growth can not be too large, and the company&#8217;s growing scale of production does not match. If you rely solely on the military market, the Iron and Steel Research development of high rate of satisfaction in the coming years will surely be affected, while the broad market areas of the development of civilian space for Iron and Steel Research Gaona see hope.

Steel Research Gaona listed on the GEM funds raised will be mainly for the aerospace and deformation temperature of powder metal products, aerospace aluminum with a titanium metal products, new high-temperature solid self-lubricating composite materials and products , casting high temperature alloys high-quality precision casting, vacuum casting and high temperature alloys, master alloys level projects. In addition to the new system to meet the aerospace materials and equipment needs, the company will open up car engine with turbocharger turbine superalloy precision castings, and chemical industry and automotive engine valve casting parts precision casting, and other civilian market. Clearly, in addition to consolidating the basis for the field of aerospace materials, steel, high-sodium has been increased research in the civilian areas of expansion.

Zhao Minghan evangelism, fund-raising project of this company by leaps and bounds is an important step in the development of the company to enhance market competitiveness and long-term development of great significance, in 2014, the production of several major projects , the company will increase the proportion of civilian share of revenues to 70%, while the military will drop to 30%.

He particularly the future of automotive products, high hopes, because the demand for automotive turbocharger to a rate of 30% per year. This is a greater demand for high-temperature alloys market worldwide in the needs of the turbocharger turbine more than 900 million pieces of 2 tons of material each year the domestic market demand, and growing every year, this study of high steel satisfied that the development of expansion has great appeal. But the whole industry a bit confusing, quite a mixed bag, some small township enterprises do, the quality is uneven.

&#8220;With our technology, the company the industry leader to do this no problem.&#8221; Zhaoming Han admitted that the company is considering expanding production scale. Iron and Steel Research Gaona turbocharger turbine superalloy materials used in the traditional technology will be improved so that higher material quality and production efficiency, material costs will also come down, the end product life will be longer. He said the company&#8217;s products with high quality and low cost advantage to expand their market strategies have been identified and will consider a number of professional sales companies for product promotion.

supreme alternative incentives

compare alternative is satisfied that the current high steel research only not implemented the GEM equity incentive company. Although the era of knowledge economy has jealously guard the high-tech talent, but making the rich GEM vigorous myth has nothing to do with them.

&#8220;in the existing conditions, to one person too much money out of the reward is not realistic, but the Iron and Steel Research Gaona&#8217;ve tried everything, including the company the highest possible treatment, and the spirit of national honor award. &#8220;The policy and institutional constraints, Zhaoming Han did not express much worry. The actual control of the company are the SASAC, the annual selection of the advanced level of individuals, companies and technical personnel has won many honors, which is priceless. He sighed, &#8220;like us to do research, more attention to the embodiment of human values, we are working to the state, such a lofty national pride not everyone has access to, is paramount.&#8221;

in the &#8220;alternative incentive&#8221; under the effect of lack of incentive stock options and Steel Institute did not give the development of high-sodium bring too much of the past. From 1985 to now, 20 years, inclusive of high-performance steel research steadily rising, there is no decline in the year before. This allows Zhao Minghan proud.

talk to him: &#8220;The company is growing very strong, emboldened enough, operation, and all for a common purpose, and the year exceeded targets every year. In the GEM in the horizontal comparison, Iron and Steel Research The annual performance of high growth and satisfaction is not too prominent, but the longitudinal comparison, the company has been developing, on a small step each year, and is a world-class enterprises into the high-temperature alloys. &#8220;

Nevertheless, Bound system inevitably led to the loss of a number of technical staff. For long-term development and ambitious future goals, high-sodium is bound to face Iron and Steel Research radical institutional change.

Zhaoming Han admitted that the company to the outside world the impression that the incentive system in place, and strong enough, the core technical staff lack of enthusiasm. This year&#8217;s shareholder meeting, shareholder proposals to solve the company has senior management and core technical staff of the equity incentive problem, the company has recognized this problem and is actively working with major shareholders, communication and consultation with competent authorities to seek practical and concrete solutions. The main problem facing the program is the exercise price and conditions of vesting conditions set too high, employees will feel that is true, of enthusiasm, given the low and pass the examination and approval. Although the dilemma, a specific implementation plan has not yet been established, there is no specific timetable, but Zhaoming Han said the confidence to produce a satisfactory answer to everyone.






made F-11B fighter aircraft has been using domestic&#8221; Taihang &#8220;high-thrust turbofan engine.





ws10 the Zhuhai air show appearance in the last row is too large thrust turbofan engine.


ps:some china Forum Boss say :ws-10 have been used in a j-10,it is in the fight test phase!

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## unicorn

So did they officially announced its specs.how much thrust does ws10 has?


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## houshanghai

http://photo.56.com/album/?do=Show&did=89197106&p=#pid=1035492878

j-xxx (qianlong) Imagine Photo


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## houshanghai

YouTube - Video J-10 AIRCRAFT TO DEBUT AT CHINA AIR SHOW

YouTube - Video J-10 FIGHTER JETS GET A MAKEOVER

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## unicorn

I wanted to know that J10B complete designation in Pakistan is FC-20 vanguard or will it be FC-20 only.


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## wali87

Welll boys, we recieved the ZDK-03 AESAs yesterday.. all of them.. I assume these airplanes will work in tandem with the growing fleet of Jf-17s and the upcoming FC-20s.. 

Considering the Pace at which Pakistan is modernising its armed forces, I believe its just a matter of another 5 years.. and the edge that the Indians once had would be completely Eliminated.. We must not forget to Put the china-indo relation into the equation..

With FC-20s and f-16s joining PAF and JXX joining the PLAAF.. India would definately be getting a feeling of being surrounded for the first time in history.. whether the Indians admit it or not..

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## Rumpelstilskin

wali87 said:


> Welll boys, we recieved the ZDK-03 AESAs yesterday.. all of them.. I assume these airplanes will work in tandem with the growing fleet of Jf-17s and the upcoming FC-20s..
> 
> Considering the Pace at which Pakistan is modernising its armed forces, I believe its just a matter of another 5 years.. and the edge that the Indians once had would be completely Eliminated.. We must not forget to Put the china-indo relation into the equation..
> 
> With FC-20s and f-16s joining PAF and JXX joining the PLAAF.. India would definately be getting a feeling of being surrounded for the first time in history.. whether the Indians admit it or not..



Hello,

I registered to this Forum With the motive to reply to your Statement... No One denies we are surrounded, We knew that the very first day You two Shook Hands , But thats Sense did not make us Weak we still have the Guts to Openly say we can take on You both Even If it may not be true as we know we do not have the Required capability to open a two front war as Of Now.... 

But I seriously do not think you can bother us By Acquiring a Few F-20's or F-16's Because we are Upgrading our Armed forces Nearly 10 times the speed and Quantities as That of What You are Upgrading...

When You are negotiating for FC-20 we have moved ahead with MMRCA,AMCA, FGFA,T-50 and the Very indigenous Airborn Early Warning Radars.... Do You still think you can bother us???


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## fatman17

*we are Upgrading our Armed forces Nearly 10 times the speed and Quantities as That of What You are Upgrading...*

your procurement is notorious for massive delays!!!

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## SBD-3

Rumpelstilskin said:


> Hello,
> 
> I registered to this Forum With the motive to reply to your Statement... No One denies we are surrounded, We knew that the very first day You two Shook Hands , But thats Sense did not make us Weak we still have the Guts to Openly say we can take on You both Even If it may not be true as we know we do not have the Required capability to open a two front war as Of Now....
> 
> But I seriously do not think you can bother us By Acquiring a Few F-20's or F-16's Because we are Upgrading our Armed forces Nearly 10 times the speed and Quantities as That of What You are Upgrading...
> 
> When You are negotiating for FC-20 we have moved ahead with MMRCA,AMCA, FGFA,T-50 and the Very indigenous Airborn Early Warning Radars.... Do You still think you can bother us???



Correction 1: IAF is still negotiating for MMRCA and no delivery schedule is evident whereas PAF has deliveries coming 2014-2015.
2- The reaction of Indian posters do indicate that they are bothered even with a single bullet purchase of Pakistan Armed forces. 
3- PAF has the advantage over IAF that if IAF spends 100 Million, PAF can counter it by just spending 50 Million cuz India has adversaries everywhere so its force is scattered whereas Pakistan has only east to look for. Thats a *Big!* advantage as we can concentrate our 100% on east whereas India cant do this cuz they have to worry from all directions (thanks to your policymakers).


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## Ammyy

hasnain0099 said:


> *Correction 1*: IAF is still negotiating for MMRCA and no delivery schedule is evident whereas PAF has deliveries coming 2014-2015.
> 2- The reaction of Indian posters do indicate that they are bothered even with a single bullet purchase of Pakistan Armed forces.
> 3- PAF has the advantage over IAF that if IAF spends 100 Million, PAF can counter it by just spending 50 Million cuz India has adversaries everywhere so its force is scattered whereas Pakistan has only east to look for. Thats a *Big!* advantage as we can concentrate our 100&#37; on east whereas India cant do this cuz they have to worry from all directions (thanks to your policymakers).



*Correction: we are negotiating those fighters those are already developed and war proof and you are talking about fighter which was still in development (Engine, Radar, Range etc etc ..... no buddy know exactly ) *


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## Donatello

Rumpelstilskin said:


> Hello,
> 
> I registered to this Forum With the motive to reply to your Statement... No One denies we are surrounded, We knew that the very first day You two Shook Hands , But thats Sense did not make us Weak we still have the Guts to Openly say we can take on You both Even If it may not be true as we know we do not have the Required capability to open a two front war as Of Now....
> 
> But I seriously do not think you can bother us By Acquiring a Few F-20's or F-16's Because we are Upgrading our Armed forces Nearly 10 times the speed and Quantities as That of What You are Upgrading...
> 
> When You are negotiating for FC-20 we have moved ahead with MMRCA,AMCA, FGFA,T-50 and the Very indigenous Airborn Early Warning Radars.... Do You still think you can bother us???





Bother?

Kid, go back in time, two years back. After Mumbai attacks who was bothering who?


I hope you were born then, or ask your parents.

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## Ammyy

penumbra said:


> War proof?
> 
> How many wars have your SU-30 MKI fought or proofed?
> 
> Or the new EF typhoons or Rafale that IAF is looking for?
> 
> 
> Please give me a number.



Good for you that you pick only this point 
Not others 
J10b is still underdevelopment and we are looking for already developed fighter 

And BTW meaning is that all their systems already tested they are not super duper secret.


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## cloneman

The PAF is already doing good enough to counter the IAF with such small buget and resource.I dont think otherone else could do better than the PAF if its in the same position.Regarding the J10B,there is rumor on the Chinese defence forums that J10B had finished the test and will be in mass production in 2011,the WS10A will be expected to fit on it around 2012.That makes sence if the PAF wants to induct it from 2014 to 2015.I have no proof ragrding the rumor,I wrote it because I felt it will fit the time table.

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## Ammyy

Jungibaaz said:


> why, he is telling the truth... no-one cares what India has or is going for this thread is about J-10!
> 
> enough about other planes.



Just go and told this to those looser who are posting in MMRCA and LCA thread


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## Pk_Thunder



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## SBD-3

DRDO said:


> *Correction: we are negotiating those fighters those are already developed and war proof and you are talking about fighter which was still in development (Engine, Radar, Range etc etc ..... no buddy know exactly ) *



which one is warproven except Flacon and Superhonet?

J-10B is entering PLAAF service Janab I dont know why do you guys have such a short memory and such behaviour....here let me help you out.....go to Google and search "J-10B ready to enter the service" and see the pics for yourself


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## unicorn

Does J-10 has shorter combat radius than JF-17?

J-10 Specs on wikipedia

Combat radius: 550 km (341 mi[7])
Service ceiling: 18,000 m (59,055 ft [43])
Wing loading: 335 kg/m&#178; (69 lb/ft&#178
Thrust/weight: .89

JF-17 Specs on wikipedia

Combat radius: 1,352 km (840 mi)
Ferry range: 3,000 km (2,175 mi)
Service ceiling: 16,700 m (54,790 ft)
Thrust/weight: 0.95


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## SBD-3

unicorn said:


> Does J-10 has shorter combat radius than JF-17?
> 
> J-10 Specs on wikipedia
> 
> Combat radius: 550 km (341 mi[7])
> Service ceiling: 18,000 m (59,055 ft [43])
> Wing loading: 335 kg/m² (69 lb/ft²)
> Thrust/weight: .89
> 
> JF-17 Specs on wikipedia
> 
> Combat radius: 1,352 km (840 mi)
> Ferry range: 3,000 km (2,175 mi)
> Service ceiling: 16,700 m (54,790 ft)
> Thrust/weight: 0.95



 that would have been some J-10 or "Chinese lavi copy" hater editing this on wiki........J-10 is a medium category air craft unlike JFT which is in light category so J-10 naturally has more fuel and payload capacity and greater range....its a simple point ma man

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## unicorn

hasnain0099 said:


> that would have been some J-10 or "Chinese lavi copy" hater editing this on wiki........J-10 is a medium category air craft unlike JFT which is in light category so J-10 naturally has more fuel and payload capacity and greater range....its a simple point ma man



Can u give me the official specs of combat radius of both aircraft please.


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## mourning sage

wali87 said:


> Welll boys, we recieved the *ZDK-03 AESAs *yesterday.. all of them.. I assume these airplanes will work in tandem with the growing fleet of Jf-17s and the upcoming FC-20s..
> 
> Considering the Pace at which Pakistan is modernising its armed forces, I believe its just a matter of another 5 years.. and the edge that the Indians once had would be completely Eliminated.. We must not forget to Put the china-indo relation into the equation..
> 
> With FC-20s and f-16s joining PAF and JXX joining the PLAAF.. India would definately be getting a feeling of being surrounded for the first time in history.. whether the Indians admit it or not..



i thought ZDK-03 was an AWAC system. 
is it a radar???


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## SBD-3

unicorn said:


> Can u give me the official specs of combat radius of both aircraft please.



No not much people here know about them....and those who know, wont tell you so.....


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## Kompromat

Rumpelstilskin said:


> Hello,
> 
> I registered to this Forum With the motive to reply to your Statement... No One denies we are surrounded, We knew that the very first day You two Shook Hands , But thats Sense did not make us Weak we still have the Guts to Openly say we can take on You both Even If it may not be true as we know we do not have the Required capability to open a two front war as Of Now....
> 
> But I seriously do not think you can bother us By Acquiring a Few F-20's or F-16's *Because we are Upgrading our Armed forces Nearly 10 times the speed and Quantities as That of What You are Upgrading...
> *
> When You are negotiating for FC-20 we have moved ahead with MMRCA,AMCA, FGFA,T-50 and the Very indigenous Airborn Early Warning Radars.... Do You still think you can bother us???



There isn't anything special in that my little friend because that comes out of your necessity since your jets are falling out of sky like dead ducks. You are upgrading not because you want to but because you have to and we will love to keep you raising your defense budget and dont spend any money on your slums and people dying out of hunger.

A little wake up tablet for you.



> *Obsolescence precentage in IAF at alarming 50&#37;*
> 
> *The Indian Air Force on Monday said that 50% of its systems and equipments were obsolete, and that steps are being taken to bring down the level of obsolescence by 2014-15.
> *
> The Indian Air Force Air Cheif Marshal P V Naik said, &#8220;The obsolescence percentage is 50%, by 2014-15, it would come down to 20%&#8221;.
> 
> The information came out on Monday while the IAF cheif was addressing his annual press conference on the Air Force Day held on October 8 every year. The air force cheif added that the most critical area for the air force in this regard is the Air Defence.
> 
> The Indian Air Force Air Cheif Marshal P V Naik however made it clear that even with 50% obsolete equipment, the IAF was capable of handling threats from the medium of air and space. &#8220;We are fully capable of defending the country from any threat.&#8221;
> 
> For over two decades that IAF has relied mainly on the Russian based air defence systems OSA-AK and Pechora, and the shoulder-fired Igla missiles. In order to improve its air defence in recent past the IAF has been working on indigenous air defence network and is also looking to procure various systems in this regard.
> 
> The force has already ordered over six squadrons of Akash air defence system developed by the DRDO and the Spyder medium-range surface to air missile system from Israel along with aerostat radars to prevent any aerial attacks.



You talk about taking on China and Pakistan at once ? you must have been smoking some serious substance as you can't even take on Naxals.

You must have been listening to US and Israeli media lately who will keep telling you that you are more powerful than you actually are and want to actually put you in a war with SinoPak that they can sale their weapons to you and also eliminate the chances of power shift to Asia.

Have a nice day.

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## siegecrossbow

Here is an interesting article that I found on a Chinese military website:

?-30?-10?????????0?5????_??_???



> &#34013;&#26041;&#20165;&#23384;&#19968;&#26550;&#25104;&#21151;&#31361;&#38450;
> 
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;11&#26376;9&#26085;&#65292;&#22312;&#21335;&#31354;&#33322;&#31354;&#20853;&#26576;&#24072;&#19968;&#22330;&#31354;&#20013;&#31361;&#20987;&#19982;&#38450;&#24481;&#20316;&#25112;&#28436;&#32451;&#20013;&#65292;&#34013;&#26041;&#25285;&#36127;&#31361;&#20987;&#20219;&#21153;&#30340;&#33322;&#31354;&#20853;&#26576;&#22242;&#25439;&#22833;5&#26550;&#25112;&#26426;&#65292;&#21482;&#26377;1&#26550;&#25112;&#26426;&#31361;&#30772;&#37325;&#22260;&#12290;&#35841;&#30693;&#65292;&#23548;&#28436;&#32452;&#23459;&#24067;&#65306;&#8220;&#34013;&#26041;&#32988;&#65281;&#8221;
> 
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;&#24590;&#20040;&#22238;&#20107;&#65311;&#23548;&#28436;&#32452;&#35762;&#35780;&#35828;&#65306;&#8220;&#34013;&#26041;&#36194;&#23601;&#36194;&#22312;&#31361;&#38450;&#25104;&#21151;&#30340;&#36825;&#19968;&#26550;&#39134;&#26426;&#19978;&#65281;&#8221;&#24072;&#38271;&#21525;&#24314;&#24378;&#23545;&#31508;&#32773;&#35828;&#65292;&#23613;&#31649;&#36825;&#19968;&#22330;&#25112;&#26007;&#34013;&#26041;&#31934;&#38160;&#23613;&#22833;&#65292;&#25112;&#25439;&#27604;&#20363;&#36739;&#22823;&#65292;&#20294;&#21807;&#19968;&#31361;&#38450;&#25104;&#21151;&#30340;&#19968;&#20010;&#26550;&#27425;&#36798;&#25104;&#20102;&#20316;&#25112;&#24847;&#22270;&#65292;&#22240;&#32780;&#21028;&#32988;&#12290;
> 
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;&#22238;&#25918;&#27492;&#24441;&#65292;&#30495;&#30456;&#22823;&#30333;&#65306;&#34013;&#26041;&#25351;&#25381;&#21592;&#12289;&#22242;&#38271;&#26472;&#27704;&#39134;&#20197;&#32477;&#22823;&#22810;&#25968;&#25112;&#26426;&#29992;&#20110;&#20335;&#25915;&#21644;&#25513;&#25252;&#65292;&#25226;&#31361;&#38450;&#30340;&#37325;&#20219;&#20132;&#32473;&#26497;&#23569;&#37096;&#20998;&#39134;&#34892;&#21592;&#23436;&#25104;&#12290;
> 
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;&#36825;&#26679;&#25171;&#33021;&#34892;&#21527;&#65311;&#31508;&#32773;&#22312;&#25351;&#25381;&#22823;&#21381;&#22823;&#23631;&#24149;&#19978;&#30475;&#21040;&#65292;&#32418;&#26041;&#25112;&#26426;&#36215;&#39134;&#21518;&#65292;&#20998;&#24038;&#20013;&#21491;3&#20010;&#26041;&#21521;&#24067;&#21183;&#65292;&#23558;&#38450;&#24481;&#30446;&#26631;&#22260;&#24471;&#20005;&#20005;&#23454;&#23454;&#12290;&#34013;&#26041;&#25112;&#26426;&#20998;&#25104;&#20004;&#36335;&#65292;&#22914;&#21516;&#20004;&#25226;&#23574;&#20992;&#30452;&#25554;&#23545;&#25163;&#20004;&#32907;&#12290;&#25968;&#20998;&#38047;&#21518;&#65292;&#21452;&#26041;&#25509;&#25932;&#65292;&#23601;&#22312;&#34013;&#26041;&#25112;&#26426;&#30456;&#32487;&#34987;&#20987;&#33853;&#20043;&#38469;&#65292;&#19968;&#26550;&#25112;&#26426;&#24189;&#28789;&#33324;&#25670;&#33073;&#19982;&#23545;&#25163;&#30340;&#32544;&#26007;&#65292;&#36229;&#20302;&#31354;&#23545;&#32418;&#26041;&#25112;&#30053;&#30446;&#26631;&#25104;&#21151;&#23454;&#26045;&#25171;&#20987;&#12290;
> &#12288;&#35780;&#20272;&#32467;&#26524;&#20844;&#24067;&#21518;&#65292;&#8220;&#21333;&#26538;&#21305;&#39532;&#8221;&#25197;&#36716;&#25112;&#23616;&#30340;&#34013;&#26041;&#39134;&#34892;&#21592;&#39640;&#26223;&#23545;&#31508;&#32773;&#35828;&#65292;&#31361;&#38450;&#36807;&#31243;&#20013;&#65292;&#33258;&#24049;&#39550;&#39542;&#30340;&#25112;&#26426;&#20063;&#26366;&#22810;&#27425;&#34987;&#23545;&#25163;&#38145;&#23450;&#20986;&#29616;&#21578;&#35686;&#65292;&#20294;&#27809;&#26377;&#19982;&#23545;&#26041;&#32416;&#32544;&#65292;&#19968;&#36793;&#26045;&#25918;&#24178;&#25200;&#65292;&#19968;&#36793;&#23454;&#26045;&#22823;&#36733;&#33655;&#26426;&#21160;&#65292;&#32456;&#20110;&#25226;&#23545;&#25163;&#29993;&#22312;&#36523;&#21518;&#65292;&#30830;&#20445;&#23436;&#25104;&#20219;&#21153;&#12290;&#65288;&#20219;&#29995;&#28165;&#12289;&#29305;&#32422;&#36890;&#35759;&#21592;&#38379;&#22269;&#26377;&#25253;&#36947;&#65289;
> 
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;&#32418;&#26041;&#31354;&#25112;&#32467;&#26524;5&#65306;0&#34987;&#21028;&#36755;
> 
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;&#8220;&#20973;&#20160;&#20040;&#21028;&#25105;&#20204;&#36755;&#65311;&#8221;&#23545;&#25239;&#32467;&#26524;&#19968;&#20844;&#24067;&#65292;&#20987;&#33853;&#20987;&#20260;&#8220;&#25932;&#26426;&#8221;5&#26550;&#12289;&#33258;&#24049;&#27627;&#21457;&#26410;&#25439;&#30340;&#32418;&#26041;&#39134;&#34892;&#21592;&#20010;&#20010;&#33080;&#32418;&#33046;&#23376;&#31895;&#65292;&#35201;&#27714;&#22797;&#30424;&#37325;&#23457;&#12290;
> 
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;&#22797;&#30424;&#20877;&#29616;&#20132;&#25112;&#30011;&#38754;&#65306;&#34013;&#26041;&#20004;&#20010;&#26041;&#21521;&#30340;&#36827;&#25915;&#38598;&#32676;&#21018;&#19968;&#39134;&#20020;&#25112;&#22330;&#20998;&#30028;&#32447;&#65292;&#32418;&#26041;&#21363;&#23454;&#26045;&#25318;&#25130;&#12290;&#21491;&#32764;&#65292;10&#22810;&#20998;&#38047;&#26102;&#38388;&#20869;&#65292;&#34013;&#26041;&#25112;&#26426;&#20840;&#37096;&#34987;&#20987;&#20013;&#12290;&#24038;&#32764;&#65292;&#34013;&#26041;&#21482;&#26377;&#19968;&#26550;&#25112;&#26426;&#20389;&#24184;&#31361;&#30772;&#32418;&#26041;&#25318;&#25130;&#12290;&#22914;&#26524;&#25353;&#25112;&#32489;&#31639;&#65292;5&#8758;0&#65292;&#32418;&#26041;&#26159;&#24403;&#20043;&#26080;&#24871;&#30340;&#32988;&#32773;&#12290;&#20294;&#20107;&#23454;&#19978;&#65292;&#23601;&#26159;&#34013;&#26041;&#31361;&#38450;&#25104;&#21151;&#30340;&#36825;&#26550;&#25112;&#26426;&#65292;&#25104;&#20102;&#32418;&#26041;&#32988;&#32489;&#30340;&#8220;&#32456;&#32467;&#32773;&#8221;&#12290;
> 
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;&#24635;&#23548;&#28436;&#12289;&#24072;&#38271;&#21525;&#24314;&#24378;&#36136;&#38382;&#32418;&#26041;&#25351;&#25381;&#21592;&#65306;&#8220;&#20320;&#20204;&#38450;&#24481;&#30340;&#30446;&#26631;&#22312;&#21738;&#37324;&#65311;&#22312;&#22320;&#38754;&#65281;&#22312;&#22825;&#19978;&#20987;&#33853;&#20987;&#20260;&#25932;&#26426;&#26159;&#20026;&#20102;&#20160;&#20040;&#65311;&#26159;&#20026;&#22320;&#38754;&#30446;&#26631;&#23433;&#20840;&#12290;&#23545;&#26041;&#21807;&#19968;&#31361;&#38450;&#25104;&#21151;&#30340;&#19968;&#26550;&#25112;&#26426;&#24688;&#24688;&#24178;&#25481;&#20102;&#20320;&#20204;&#37325;&#20853;&#38450;&#23432;&#30340;&#30446;&#26631;&#65292;&#33021;&#35828;&#20320;&#20204;&#36194;&#20102;&#21527;&#65311;&#8221;
> 
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;&#22823;&#21381;&#37324;&#40486;&#38592;&#26080;&#22768;&#65292;&#32418;&#26041;&#39134;&#34892;&#21592;&#37117;&#20302;&#19979;&#20102;&#22836;&#12290;&#35762;&#35780;&#32467;&#26463;&#21518;&#65292;&#32418;&#26041;&#25351;&#25381;&#21592;&#12289;&#22242;&#38271;&#26446;&#38155;&#24515;&#24742;&#35802;&#26381;&#22320;&#23545;&#31508;&#32773;&#35828;&#65306;&#8220;&#24072;&#38271;&#35828;&#24471;&#23545;&#65292;&#25105;&#20204;&#20002;&#20102;&#35199;&#29916;&#25441;&#20102;&#33437;&#40635;&#65292;&#21028;&#25105;&#20204;&#36755;&#19968;&#28857;&#19981;&#20900;&#26505;&#65281;&#8221;&#65288;&#36213;&#27704;&#22266;&#12289;&#29305;&#32422;&#36890;&#35759;&#21592;&#38379;&#22269;&#26377;&#25253;&#36947;&#65289;
> 
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;&#20132;&#25112;&#24863;&#35328;
> 
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;&#29616;&#20195;&#31354;&#25112;&#65292;&#30446;&#20809;&#32477;&#19981;&#33021;&#20165;&#20165;&#20572;&#30041;&#22312;&#8220;&#20987;&#33853;&#25932;&#26426;&#8221;&#22810;&#23569;&#30340;&#23618;&#38754;&#19978;&#12290;&#27491;&#20687;&#8220;001&#8221;&#21644;&#8220;100&#8221;&#30456;&#27604;&#65292;&#34429;&#28982;&#37117;&#26159;&#21516;&#26679;&#30340;&#19977;&#20010;&#25968;&#23383;&#65292;&#20294;&#23436;&#25104;&#20219;&#21153;&#30340;&#8220;1&#8221;&#26159;&#8220;&#26377;&#25928;&#25968;&#23383;&#8221;&#65292;&#21482;&#26377;&#36825;&#20010;&#8220;1&#8221;&#23384;&#22312;&#65292;&#20987;&#33853;&#20987;&#20260;&#8220;&#25932;&#26426;&#8221;&#30340;&#37027;&#20123;&#8220;0&#8221;&#25165;&#26500;&#25104;&#25112;&#32489;&#12290;
> 
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;&#8212;&#8212;&#32418;&#26041;&#25351;&#25381;&#21592;&#12289;&#21335;&#31354;&#33322;&#31354;&#20853;&#26576;&#22242;&#22242;&#38271; &#26446;&#38155;
> 
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;&#25105;&#20204;&#36825;&#25903;&#20891;&#38431;&#36807;&#21435;&#25171;&#20183;&#26377;&#19968;&#20010;&#22909;&#20256;&#32479;&#65306;&#19981;&#35745;&#36739;&#19968;&#22478;&#19968;&#22320;&#30340;&#24471;&#22833;&#65292;&#37325;&#22312;&#36798;&#25104;&#25112;&#30053;&#30446;&#30340;&#12290;&#36807;&#21435;&#22320;&#38754;&#20316;&#25112;&#22914;&#27492;&#65292;&#22914;&#20170;&#31354;&#20013;&#20316;&#25112;&#20063;&#19981;&#24212;&#8220;&#24536;&#26412;&#8221;&#12290;&#25105;&#20204;&#24120;&#35828;&#65292;&#39134;&#34892;&#21592;&#35201;&#26377;&#25112;&#30053;&#22836;&#33041;&#65292;&#30475;&#36215;&#26469;&#35201;&#27714;&#24456;&#39640;&#19981;&#22909;&#25226;&#25569;&#65292;&#20854;&#23454;&#23601;&#20307;&#29616;&#22312;&#20855;&#20307;&#30340;&#25112;&#26415;&#36816;&#29992;&#20013;&#12290;
> 
> 
> &#12288;&#12288;&#8212;&#8212;&#34013;&#26041;&#25351;&#25381;&#21592;&#12289;&#21335;&#31354;&#33322;&#31354;&#20853;&#26576;&#22242;&#22242;&#38271; &#26472;&#27704;&#39134;



The story is basically about a mock air fight between six Su-30 mkks, representing the blue team (the "enemy"), with J-10s on the red team. The Su-30s were on a strike mission and the J-10s took out 5 (shot down or injured) of the bombers and escorts with zero loss but guess who won?

The blue team because one of the Su-30s successfully penetrated the J-10's defence.

I don't want to turn this into another tiredsome Su-30 vs. J-10 thread but want to examine the PLAAF's training doctrines instead. Does anyone here think that the red team are being treated a little too harshly? Just how much damage could a lone Su-30 do?

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## Ammyy

hasnain0099 said:


> which one is warproven except Flacon and Superhonet?
> 
> J-10B is entering PLAAF service Janab I dont know why do you guys have such a short memory and such behaviour....here let me help you out.....go to Google and search "J-10B ready to enter the service" and see the pics for yourself



*If photos are available does that mean J10b entered in service ???

please provide any official link 

And BTW there are thousands of photos of F-35 available on net so by your logic F 35 already entered in service???? *


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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> Here is an interesting article that I found on a Chinese military website:
> 
> ?-30?-10?????????0?5????_??_???
> 
> 
> 
> The story is basically about a mock air fight between six Su-30 mkks, representing the blue team (the "enemy"), with J-10s on the red team. The Su-30s were on a strike mission and the J-10s took out 5 (shot down or injured) of the bombers and escorts with zero loss but guess who won?
> 
> The blue team because one of the Su-30s successfully penetrated the J-10's defence.
> 
> I don't want to turn this into another tiredsome Su-30 vs. J-10 thread but want to examine the PLAAF's training doctrines instead. Does anyone here think that the red team are being treated a little too harshly? Just how much damage could a lone Su-30 do?



Though a little, but yet they failed to intercept the attack force. Just consider the Blue as USAF and Red as PLAAF and say blues are tasked with taking out KJ-2000 (which will be the prioroty targets of USAF alongwith tankers) nearly all the attck fighters would have been euipped with AMRAAMs and if even 1 of the aircraft is able to get within the lanuching range, KJ-2000 will be as good as dead, so it would not matter that the 9 out of 10 aircrafts were shot down. the loss of one KJ-2000 will means blues have achieved their mission.

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## SBD-3

DRDO said:


> *If photos are available does that mean J10b entered in service ???
> 
> please provide any official link
> 
> And BTW there are thousands of photos of F-35 available on net so by your logic F 35 already entered in service???? *



official link?....its in final testings btw...we are not dealing with DRDO of India


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## houshanghai

(j10)zhuhai airshow Program cctv Military Channel 

sorry.it is chinese program

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## abaseen99

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_DRsCVlpdC4A/TNwp7soStzI/AAAAAAAAAIQ/M2nG08gDQUE/20101029104700752.jpg


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## abaseen99

http://www.chinanews.com.cn/tp/hd/2010/11-12/U179P4T303D12395F14530DT20101112082333.jpg


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## abaseen99

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_DRsCVlpdC4A/T...laboard/uploads/20101112-1289491777_35328.jpg


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## Indestructible

J-10 currently performing at Zhuhai's Airshow.

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## SEAL

When JF-17 will perform i m waiting from last 2 hours.


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## kursed

Self-delete [wrong thread]


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## gzz

??????????????????? - ?? - ???? - ????
J10, air show, very good video


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## gzz

???????? ?10???????? - ?? - ???? - ????


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## Tajdar adil

We need stealth technology.......


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## abaseen99

http://www.aviationnow.com.cn/images/Hot/2008-09/j-10.jpg

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## Jungibaaz

Tajdar adil said:


> We need stealth technology.......



the Chinese are working on it... but, lets try to induct more 4.5 gen fighter, further develop the JF-17 and when the time is right we will move on to stealth tech when it is available to us.

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## fatman17

Jungibaaz said:


> the Chinese are working on it... but, lets try to induct more 4.5 gen fighter, further develop the JF-17 and when the time is right we will move on to stealth tech when it is available to us.



JF-17 'stealth' is planned - maybe from the blk3 onwards and then all 150 JFT's wld be 'stealth' - how abt them apples!

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## AMCA

fatman17 said:


> JF-17 'stealth' is planned - maybe from the blk3 onwards and then all 150 JFT's wld be 'stealth' - how abt them apples!



Interesting, Could You Please Tell Me more about it??? Is it going to have a smart skin Update or something?? Or any Design Changes??? Which Could Make it stealthier By design..... Or Going for Al round Composites to reduce its RCS???


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## DANGER-ZONE

AMCA said:


> Interesting, Could You Please Tell Me more about it??? Is it going to have a smart skin Update or something?? Or any Design Changes??? Which Could Make it stealthier By design..... Or Going for Al round Composites to reduce its RCS???



i guess its too early to talk about it. he told you what PAF thinking about JF-17's future. .


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## mjnaushad

AMCA said:


> Interesting, Could You Please Tell Me more about it??? Is it going to have a smart skin Update or something?? Or any Design Changes??? Which Could Make it stealthier By design..... Or Going for Al round Composites to reduce its RCS???


An AESA and IRST are planned for JFT. Composite material also planned. JFT already have DSI. Could be more things which we don't know yet. It wont be a 5th gen stealth but a good 4.5th gen stealth. Which serve our needs best.

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## monitor

fatman17 said:


> JF-17 'stealth' is planned - maybe from the blk3 onwards and then all 150 JFT's wld be 'stealth' - how abt them apples!



I think pakistan should now concentrate on blockII with better rader composit material engine more weapons hard point etc along side of developing a block III vertion with stealth feature on it to counter any future eventualities if getting chinese j-xx become delayed or f-35 become imposible then the combinaton of FC-20 and jf-17 blockII and blockIII may thwart nay aggration on pakistans soil. allahu akbar

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## Indestructible

I think PAF would wait until all the planned weapons for Blk-1 are incorporated into current design. Once done, we can hope for a Blk-2.


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## fatman17

AMCA said:


> Interesting, Could You Please Tell Me more about it??? Is it going to have a smart skin Update or something?? Or any Design Changes??? Which Could Make it stealthier By design..... Or Going for Al round Composites to reduce its RCS???



AFAIK no design changes - not much is known abt this for obvious reasons - we all have to wait


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## houshanghai

J-10 of China unveiled a full set of weapons systems against a wide range of firepower
Posted on November 18th, 2010


China Aviation Museum&#8217;s J-10 aircraft model display and a full set of weapons system Photo: doors wide

The air show in the aircraft industry once again demonstrated the full range of domestic J-10 aircraft weapons systems. J-10 fighter is a refreshing advanced fighters, J-10 fire against an array of plug-in system is confusing. Judging from the show, J-10 can mount most domestic airborne ammunition, targets from the sky, land to ocean, J-10 fully demonstrate the manner of the king.

J-10 on the fight against the most important equipment is the low-altitude navigation pod, the system that evolved from the sky. J-10 low altitude navigation pod provides for the climb/dive instruction to complete the all-weather low altitude penetration, is essential to tactical attacks on key equipment. Navigation pod with terrain following radar, main, wide field of forward-looking infrared system, the control computer, environmental controls and power pose. J-10 mounted weapons can be guided according to different requirements, before the hanging points in the fuselage mounted laser-guided pods, electronic countermeasures pod, IR/chaff bomb jamming pod, anti-ship missile pod data transmission, phase Phased array radar reconnaissance pods and so on. J-10 display only the mounted pods and laser-guided navigation pod, the pod that other types of options can be mounted by the J-10. J-10 has to reconnaissance, electronic warfare, penetration, weapons guidance and other multi-mission adaptability .

J-10 air defense missiles mainly by IR dogfight missile PL-8, medium-range semi-active radar-guided PL-11 and PL-12 active radar guided composition, but also linked to plant PL-5 series than the new Infrared fighting bombs. PL-5 is a self-developed, has also been improvements. PL-8 was introduced in the 80 -3 constrictor Israel on the basis of technology developed from the Chinese fighter is now &#8220;standard&#8221; fighting bombs, there are several development models. PL-11, formerly known as Sparrow missiles, 80 years the introduction of the technology developed from the Italian Asi Pai, the only investment in the development of a long research equipment. PL-12 is currently China&#8217;s most advanced medium-range missiles, AIM-120 with the United States very early models.

ground attack showed seven 90 mm rockets nest, firing arrows 90-1 type of non-killing bomb navigation system should be able to mount 57 mm, 130 mm rockets nest, omitted in the display . J-10 plug too many weapons, secondary weapons are only a representative selection. No controlled bomb many varieties to choose from, there are anti-explosion aviation bombs 500-4,500-3, 250 kg bombs and other low resistance, in addition, there are various types of cluster bombs caliber, anti-artillery bombs, fuel air bombs, all impedance free-fall bombs, let alone mount. Bombs are hanging in the body hanging point, the centerline of belly bombs can be linked to large-caliber weapons, the four small-diameter bombs hanging rack side. J-10 chose the lightweight 23 mm cannon, normally used for air operations, not used for combat.

J-10 precision-guided munitions are many varieties, most of the Zhuhai air show display can be used to mount precision-guided bombs. Mounted for display with LT-2, LS-6. 500 LS-6 by the caliber of low resistance retrofit kit to upgrade from a bomb, a gliding projectile package, so that a range of up to 65 km standoff launch carrier aircraft to reduce the probability of attack. LS-6 after launching from the GPS satellite navigation system or the Green Corners provide guidance, precision can reach 10 meters. The future, as the second generation of passive systems in use Beidou satellite navigation guidance mode is expected to be large-scale application. LS-6 glide bombs outside diameter than 500,250, this air show also brought a small-caliber ammunition, precision attack, a 50 kg, a 100 kg, developed ideas similar to the U.S. GBU-39. This guided bombs in addition to satellite navigation and positioning, it also adds a small seeker, may increase such as laser, infrared seeker. Flight components by the middle of the edge of the missile wing and tail cabin composition. J-10 display weapons are developed in the aircraft industry, in fact, Aerospace Science and Industry, there are many precision munitions to choose from. If technology is leading the small-diameter LS-6 of the FT-5 series of missiles.

small diameter precision-guided munitions is the development of popular varieties, based on the stealth fighter guided weapons to use and to fill existing vacancies. Because of small size, it is easy to mount in the bomb bay and unmanned stealth fighter attack aircraft, and better mobility, attack flexibility, smaller warhead and greater accuracy also reduces collateral damage. More fighters to mount small-caliber ammunition, can expand the scope of or against a continuous attack on high-value targets. Precision-guided munitions and large caliber mixed use, expanding the mission flexibility and combat types. J-10 particularly suitable for small-caliber ammunition used fighter planes, FT series to choose from a variety of small-caliber ammunition. FT-1 on the basis of a bomb in the general installation of GPS guidance device, relying on air power to control, hit accuracy of 30 meters. FT-2 modified folding wings, the maximum running distance from 18 km up to 60-90 km, to achieve standoff launch the bomb like LS-6. FT-3 to switch to edge of the wing flight components, increased laser-guided, two-balanced laser proofing mode. Integration of the integrated missile design, coordinate attacks, hit accuracy level meters. FT-6 FT-3 in the installation of lift components based on the extended range, while optimizing the navigation, guidance, control system, the standoff launch, destroying the ground or low-speed fixed and moving targets at sea. FT-5 guided bombs caliber 100, FT-3 with a similar flight components, installation in different ways, adding GPS guidance SINS, precision meter class. FT-5 panels show a family can be developed, such as increased lift components into a small glider bombs, laser or color infrared seeker to increase first-class. To be mature technology, Compass navigation satellite into use the second generation, J-10 probably made extensive use of precision-guided munitions, particularly the small-diameter precision-guided munitions.

surprising that J-10 finally shown in this air show mount anti-ship missile capability, show the development is completed J-10 Navy, serving in sight. Air show in the minicomputer contained a variety of emerging anti-ship missiles can be mounted on the J-10, hanging belly main strong point of carrying capacity and may even be mounted such as the YJ-91 supersonic anti-ship missiles such large scale. J-10 KAD-88 missile is a flagship series, the YJ-8 Airborne Model (export C801), can be used for anti-ship and ground attack. J-10 load of bombs because of the restrictions, the future is expected to use the lightweight C-704, C-705 anti-ship missiles such as the export of domestic models, in order to increase the number of mounts. (Wind Yu)

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## funner

http://you.video.sina.com.cn/api/sinawebApi/outplayrefer.php/vid=41756075_27/s.swf

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

houshanghai said:


> J-10 of China unveiled a full set of weapons systems against a wide range of firepower
> Posted on November 18th, 2010
> 
> 
> China Aviation Museum&#8217;s J-10 aircraft model display and a full set of weapons system Photo: doors wide
> 
> The air show in the aircraft industry once again demonstrated the full range of domestic J-10 aircraft weapons systems. J-10 fighter is a refreshing advanced fighters, J-10 fire against an array of plug-in system is confusing. Judging from the show, J-10 can mount most domestic airborne ammunition, targets from the sky, land to ocean, J-10 fully demonstrate the manner of the king.
> 
> J-10 on the fight against the most important equipment is the low-altitude navigation pod, the system that evolved from the sky. J-10 low altitude navigation pod provides for the climb/dive instruction to complete the all-weather low altitude penetration, is essential to tactical attacks on key equipment. Navigation pod with terrain following radar, main, wide field of forward-looking infrared system, the control computer, environmental controls and power pose. J-10 mounted weapons can be guided according to different requirements, before the hanging points in the fuselage mounted laser-guided pods, electronic countermeasures pod, IR/chaff bomb jamming pod, anti-ship missile pod data transmission, phase Phased array radar reconnaissance pods and so on. J-10 display only the mounted pods and laser-guided navigation pod, the pod that other types of options can be mounted by the J-10. J-10 has to reconnaissance, electronic warfare, penetration, weapons guidance and other multi-mission adaptability .
> 
> J-10 air defense missiles mainly by IR dogfight missile PL-8, medium-range semi-active radar-guided PL-11 and PL-12 active radar guided composition, but also linked to plant PL-5 series than the new Infrared fighting bombs. PL-5 is a self-developed, has also been improvements. PL-8 was introduced in the 80 -3 constrictor Israel on the basis of technology developed from the Chinese fighter is now &#8220;standard&#8221; fighting bombs, there are several development models. PL-11, formerly known as Sparrow missiles, 80 years the introduction of the technology developed from the Italian Asi Pai, the only investment in the development of a long research equipment. PL-12 is currently China&#8217;s most advanced medium-range missiles, AIM-120 with the United States very early models.
> 
> ground attack showed seven 90 mm rockets nest, firing arrows 90-1 type of non-killing bomb navigation system should be able to mount 57 mm, 130 mm rockets nest, omitted in the display . J-10 plug too many weapons, secondary weapons are only a representative selection. No controlled bomb many varieties to choose from, there are anti-explosion aviation bombs 500-4,500-3, 250 kg bombs and other low resistance, in addition, there are various types of cluster bombs caliber, anti-artillery bombs, fuel air bombs, all impedance free-fall bombs, let alone mount. Bombs are hanging in the body hanging point, the centerline of belly bombs can be linked to large-caliber weapons, the four small-diameter bombs hanging rack side. J-10 chose the lightweight 23 mm cannon, normally used for air operations, not used for combat.
> 
> J-10 precision-guided munitions are many varieties, most of the Zhuhai air show display can be used to mount precision-guided bombs. Mounted for display with LT-2, LS-6. 500 LS-6 by the caliber of low resistance retrofit kit to upgrade from a bomb, a gliding projectile package, so that a range of up to 65 km standoff launch carrier aircraft to reduce the probability of attack. LS-6 after launching from the GPS satellite navigation system or the Green Corners provide guidance, precision can reach 10 meters. The future, as the second generation of passive systems in use Beidou satellite navigation guidance mode is expected to be large-scale application. LS-6 glide bombs outside diameter than 500,250, this air show also brought a small-caliber ammunition, precision attack, a 50 kg, a 100 kg, developed ideas similar to the U.S. GBU-39. This guided bombs in addition to satellite navigation and positioning, it also adds a small seeker, may increase such as laser, infrared seeker. Flight components by the middle of the edge of the missile wing and tail cabin composition. J-10 display weapons are developed in the aircraft industry, in fact, Aerospace Science and Industry, there are many precision munitions to choose from. If technology is leading the small-diameter LS-6 of the FT-5 series of missiles.
> 
> small diameter precision-guided munitions is the development of popular varieties, based on the stealth fighter guided weapons to use and to fill existing vacancies. Because of small size, it is easy to mount in the bomb bay and unmanned stealth fighter attack aircraft, and better mobility, attack flexibility, smaller warhead and greater accuracy also reduces collateral damage. More fighters to mount small-caliber ammunition, can expand the scope of or against a continuous attack on high-value targets. Precision-guided munitions and large caliber mixed use, expanding the mission flexibility and combat types. J-10 particularly suitable for small-caliber ammunition used fighter planes, FT series to choose from a variety of small-caliber ammunition. FT-1 on the basis of a bomb in the general installation of GPS guidance device, relying on air power to control, hit accuracy of 30 meters. FT-2 modified folding wings, the maximum running distance from 18 km up to 60-90 km, to achieve standoff launch the bomb like LS-6. FT-3 to switch to edge of the wing flight components, increased laser-guided, two-balanced laser proofing mode. Integration of the integrated missile design, coordinate attacks, hit accuracy level meters. FT-6 FT-3 in the installation of lift components based on the extended range, while optimizing the navigation, guidance, control system, the standoff launch, destroying the ground or low-speed fixed and moving targets at sea. FT-5 guided bombs caliber 100, FT-3 with a similar flight components, installation in different ways, adding GPS guidance SINS, precision meter class. FT-5 panels show a family can be developed, such as increased lift components into a small glider bombs, laser or color infrared seeker to increase first-class. To be mature technology, Compass navigation satellite into use the second generation, J-10 probably made extensive use of precision-guided munitions, particularly the small-diameter precision-guided munitions.
> 
> surprising that J-10 finally shown in this air show mount anti-ship missile capability, show the development is completed J-10 Navy, serving in sight. Air show in the minicomputer contained a variety of emerging anti-ship missiles can be mounted on the J-10, hanging belly main strong point of carrying capacity and may even be mounted such as the YJ-91 supersonic anti-ship missiles such large scale. J-10 KAD-88 missile is a flagship series, the YJ-8 Airborne Model (export C801), can be used for anti-ship and ground attack. J-10 load of bombs because of the restrictions, the future is expected to use the lightweight C-704, C-705 anti-ship missiles such as the export of domestic models, in order to increase the number of mounts. (Wind Yu)




THIS PLANE IS WOW LOADED !!!!  check out the targeting units on display wow just super plane 36 of these babies coming to Pakistan Airforce Brand NEW wow can't wait for 2014

It would be great honor to have these birds in our inventory crown jewls in our airforce no doubt once they get inducted

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## FighterFan

J10 looks like a pretty close copy to the F16


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## DESERT FIGHTER

FighterFan said:


> J10 looks like a pretty close copy to the F16



Too much drugs................ >>>>REHAB.

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## fatman17

FighterFan said:


> J10 looks like a pretty close copy to the F16



its based on a combination of the defunct israeli 'lavi' design and has 'similarities' to the F-16 also.


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## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC 
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2010 


Jane's Defence Weekly 

*PLAAF puts best foot forward at Airshow China*.

Robert Hewson JDW Correspondent - Zhuhai, China

The eighth Airshow China, held from 16-21 November in Zhuhai, Guangdong province, continued to provide a unique (but biennial) insight into China's development as an aerospace and military power. The show was heavily supported by the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), which exhibited front-line aircraft types including the H-6H bomber, J-8F interceptor, KJ-200 airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) platform, JH-7A strike aircraft and WZ-9G armed helicopter. 

The show also saw the debut of the PLAAF's 'August 1' display team with its new fleet of specially built J-10A demonstration aircraft - underlining how the J-10 has become China's standard front-line fighter. 

Prior to the show, rumours swept across the internet in China that the new fifth-generation fighter aircraft now under development at Chengdu had emerged from the factory. The aircraft, referred to obliquely by its serial number as 'New Chengdu Machine 2001', is reported to have started engine runs on 5 November. There was no evidence of the new fighter at Airshow China, but several Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) officials - including weapon designers working with the programme - acknowledged its existence. 

Among the new aircraft that were on display was the latest version of Hongdu's L-15 advanced trainer (Aircraft 06), which is powered by an afterburning Motorsich AI-222-25F turbofan. Hongdu's L-7 piston-powered primary trainer was also seen in public for the first time. The prototype aircraft had been transported to Zhuhai as it is yet to make its maiden flight. This is expected before the end of the year, according to company sources. 

Key themes at the show included the widespread emergence of armed unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) programmes in China along with a new range of small 'smart' munitions to equip them. At least four all-new armed UAV systems were displayed by different manufacturers, with each claimed to be in full development and several claimed to be in operational service. 

Two of China's leading guided weapon houses - CASC and LOEC - showed a variety of new designs. LOEC has developed two highly evolved versions of its LS-6 guided glide bomb family. The 50 kg LS-6(50) and 100 kg LS-6(100) use some of the basic GPS/INS guidance components of the much larger LS-6(250) and LS-6(500) but with a redesigned airframe and a new semi-active laser terminal seeker for greatly enhanced precision. 

CASC has further developed its FT series of guided glide bombs, with the small-diameter FT-5 version now cleared for use on the company's CH-3 armed UAV and delivered to a customer, believed to be Pakistan. 

Other new weapons to emerge in Zhuhai included an air-launched, land-attack version of the COSIC C-802A missile, dubbed the CM-802AKG. Cleared for service and perhaps already delivered to an export customer (likely to be Iran), the CM-802AKG is fitted with a new blast/fragmentation warhead, imaging infrared seeker and datalink to be effective over a range of about 250 km. 

COSIC also exhibited the TB-1 multi-purpose lightweight missile - a laser-guided weapon able to engage air or ground targets from helicopters - along with its YZ-200 guided bomb concept. 

New (overtly) armed UAV programmes included AVIC's Predator-class Pterodactyl 1, COSIC's jet-powered WJ-600 (said to be in service and operational with an unidentified customer) and the Xian ASN Technology Group ASN-229A Satcom-enabled reconnaissance and attack UAV. 

Another new UAV, the CASC SL-200, was described as "a high-altitude UAV able to release materials for artificial precipitation, agricultural sowing, pesticide spraying, disaster prevention and pest control". Clearly a stealthy design capable of carrying a very diverse payload, the SL-200 stood out for attempting to disguise its true capabilities at an event that was otherwise very overt in its message concerning China's defence technology bow-wave.

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## Kompromat

> New (overtly) armed UAV programmes included AVIC's Predator-class Pterodactyl 1, COSIC's jet-powered WJ-600 *(said to be in service and operational with an unidentified customer)*



Who is that customer ???


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## houshanghai

Chengdu J-10 Next Variant Developing


Nov 19, 2010



By Reuben F. Johnson
ZHUHAI, China

Chengdu Aerospace&#8217;s most famous product, the J-10 fighter aircraft, made its inaugural appearance at Zhuhai&#8217;s Air Show China in 2008, offering one of the most remarkable flight displays of the event. In the intervening two years, the program has made notable progress.

The J-10&#8217;s evolution mirrors that of another famous single-engine fighter aircraft, the Lockheed Martin F-16 in more than one respect.

One of the F-16&#8217;s major developmental milestones was the introduction of a second, alternate engine, the F110-GE-100, which at the time produced 6,000 lbs more thrust than the F-100-PW-100/220 that was the aircraft&#8217;s original power plant. In the same vein, Chinese industry has been hard at work to complete testing and development of the Liming Aeroengine Manufacturing Corporation (LMAC) WS-10A engine.

According to Chinese news reports, the WS-10A has been flying on board prototype aircraft of the J-10&#8217;s next block-series development, which has been designated as J-10B. The WS-10A will replace the Salyut AL-31FN engine, which was the aircraft&#8217;s original power plant.

Included as part of the J-10B&#8217;s configuration is an entirely new design for the engine inlet, which has changed from the rectangular configuration developed for the AL-31FN to an oval-shaped inlet. This again parallels the F-16&#8217;s development in which a &#8220;big mouth&#8221; inlet was developed for the aircraft to provide an increase in air flow for the enhanced thrust of the GE F110 engine.

In the modern day, however, what makes the major difference in combat aircraft performance is the capability of the on-board electronic systems. Chinese industry officials told Aviation Weel that a new line of products is in development to replace some of the major pod container systems in use now on the J-10 and other aircraft.

Most notable here is the CETC KG300G electronic warfare pod, which will be redesigned in a new variant that expands the frequency bandwidths it can cover. Also in development is a new-generation active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar that would replace the aircraft&#8217;s current mechanically-steered array. &#8220;AESA radars are a major improvement for any fighter aircraft,&#8221; said one Chinese designer, &#8220;in that it provides a significant increase in reliability and radar performance.&#8221;

Photo: Douglas Barrie








Chengdu J-10 Next Variant Developing | AVIATION WEEK


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## houshanghai



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## fatman17

Black Blood said:


> Who is that customer ???



hee.hee.....!!!

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## PakSher

Hunter911 said:


> This is the logic of Chinese engineers, sir.
> 
> jf-17would defeated f-16c/d.I'm sure.



PAF pilot during training and exercise have dog fights with all air crafts. Pilots that flew the F-16s for years were transferred to Mirages, F7s and there have been many occasions that Mirages and F7s have performed cold kills of F-16s. If that is possible JF17 should also be able to defeat the F-16.


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## wangrong



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## Indestructible

J-10 does not have wing tip rails???


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> hee.hee.....!!!



great rep sir jee,,

well we dont know, who is going to get it,, 
no, we really dont 



> Originally posted by *Indestructible*
> J-10 does not have wing tip rails???


who said this bro??




J-10 have 11 hardpoints,
two on wing tips,
siz under wings (three on both sides)
one centerline under fuselage and two light hardpoints under fuselage just under air inlet.

i hope it helps


regards!


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## TaimiKhan

Indestructible said:


> J-10 does not have wing tip rails???



Nops, it does not has any wing tip rails. 

It has 11 hard points, 3 under each wing and 5 under the fuselage belly. 

The picture in Wangrong's post is of a fully loaded J-10, all 6 hardpoints under the wings loaded, as well as the 5 hardpoints under the main body are also loaded.

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## DANGER-ZONE

TaimiKhan said:


> Nops, it does not has any wing tip rails.
> 
> It has 11 hard points, 3 under each wing and 5 under the fuselage belly.
> 
> The picture in Wangrong's post is of a fully loaded J-10, all 6 hardpoints under the wings loaded, as well as the 5 hardpoints under the main body are also loaded.



j-10 have 11 hard points while FC-20 will have 11 hard points too but would not be having backward fuselage hard points (near to landing gears) instead it will have wingtip rails. The picture Arsalanslam has posted up is actually assumed FC-20 not J-10.


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## TaimiKhan

danger-zone said:


> j-10 have 11 hard points while FC-20 will have 11 hard points too but would not be having backward fuselage hard points (near to landing gears) instead it will have wingtip rails. The picture Arsalanslam has posted up is actually assumed FC-20 not J-10.



The CGI picture is of an advanced or a future variant of J-10 by Chinese sources. 

Whether FC-20 would be like this or not, is for now not clear. 

As the current J-10B, the rumored to be future variant of FC-20 has for now no wing tip rails. 

Its easy to show the rails in CGI pictures, but in reality it depends on the aerodynamic profile, does the wing tip rails have affect on the aerodynamic characteristics of the plane or not, would decide whether any future variant will have or not. As my understanding is, had there been no major aerodynamic problem attached to wing tip rails for J-10, Chinese manufacturers would have added it at initial stages, but since the aerodynamic profile of the J-10 is different, it may have not been added as it would have caused some problems in its flying characteristics. 

So, end result is, if it has no problems for the flying profile of the plane, they will get added, if it has issues with this delta cum canard design, they may not add it. 

Plus, its good if its added, then we can have 13 hard points, as the removal of 2 hard points from fuselage would be a weak point rather then plus point. China has come up with smaller PGM munitions, 50KG & 100KG bombs, which loaded on the J-10 will give it more lethality as it can target more targets without the issue of payload crossing the limit.


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## DANGER-ZONE

TaimiKhan said:


> The CGI picture is of an advanced or a future variant of J-10 by Chinese sources.
> 
> Whether FC-20 would be like this or not, is for now not clear.
> 
> As the current J-10B, the rumored to be future variant of FC-20 has for now no wing tip rails.
> 
> Its easy to show the rails in CGI pictures, but in reality it depends on the aerodynamic profile, does the wing tip rails have affect on the aerodynamic characteristics of the plane or not, would decide whether any future variant will have or not. As my understanding is, had there been no major aerodynamic problem attached to wing tip rails for J-10, Chinese manufacturers would have added it at initial stages, but since the aerodynamic profile of the J-10 is different, it may have not been added as it would have caused some problems in its flying characteristics.
> 
> So, end result is, if it has no problems for the flying profile of the plane, they will get added, if it has issues with this delta cum canard design, they may not add it.
> 
> Plus, its good if its added, then we can have 13 hard points, as the removal of 2 hard points from fuselage would be a weak point rather then plus point. China has come up with smaller PGM munitions, 50KG & 100KG bombs, which loaded on the J-10 will give it more lethality as it can target more targets without the issue of payload crossing the limit.








well v had seen Jf-17s DSI intake and ECM device mounted on tail,for the first time a Chinese GCI. people were surprised...
same it looks like with FC-20,to me. 
above picture shows the same aircraft named as FC-20 as posted by Arsalan Aslam. it was posted here http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca-169.html by a *WANGRONG* the most credible Chinese source on PDF. plus it also shows J-10b.

of course Fc-20 will based on J-10b but a little modified.

Also the 12th & 13th of backward fuselage will not be able to load any thing more thee mk81 of less weighing bomb(less then 150 kg), because of length. there is not much space b/w landing gears and Hardpoints.


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## TaimiKhan

danger-zone said:


> well v had seen Jf-17s DSI intake and ECM device mounted on tail,for the first time a Chinese GCI. people were surprised...
> same it looks like with FC-20,to me.
> above picture shows the same aircraft named as FC-20 as posted by Arsalan Aslam. it was posted here http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca-169.html by a *WANGRONG* the most credible Chinese source on PDF. plus it also shows J-10b.
> 
> of course Fc-20 will based on J-10b but a little modified.
> 
> Also the 12th & 13th of backward fuselage will not be able to load any thing more thee mk81 of less weighing bomb(less then 150 kg), because of length. there is not much space b/w landing gears and Hardpoints.



I agree with what you are saying, but as i said, CGI are easy to make, but in reality it depends on the planes aerodynamic profile. If wind model tests are positive, no prob is why not getting it. I am not contesting that it can not have them, all i am saying for now no real life example to suggest that it will be having them. 

And even a 50/100KG bomb each on the 12 & 13th hard point behind the fuselage can be of great help, as 2 more targets can be attacked in the same sortie or more PGMs can be launched for one target. China has come up with a 50KG and 100KG JDAM styled munitions, which can be used for good. 

So, i am all in for the wing tip rails, it will added more hard points if we want.


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## Kompromat

according to this CGI the FC-20 will have CFTs too.


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## Kompromat

I have made things a little easier

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## wangrong

TaimiKhan said:


> Nops, it does not has any wing tip rails.
> 
> It has 11 hard points, 3 under each wing and 5 under the fuselage belly.
> 
> The picture in Wangrong's post is of a fully loaded J-10, all 6 hardpoints under the wings loaded, as well as the 5 hardpoints under the main body are also loaded.

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## PurpleButcher

going through the pic posted by danger zone I have noticed that the nose cone of FC-20 is smaller as compared to that of j-10a/b/x. And aesa radar perhaps requires a larger nose so how is this design credible?

Secondly Black Blood, you have pointed aesa just under the cockpit , is that the location of radars :~( ?


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## sancho

wangrong said:


>



But how realistic is that load in modern times? I have big doubts that PLAAF would send out J10s with dumb bombs for strike missions and if so, only the wing stations would be useful for PGMs.
The front fuselage stations are for pods mainly (targeting, recon...), the centerline for fuel tank, or heavy weapons, not sure what weapon really can be installed on the rear stations. That means wingtip stations for SR missiles would make more stations free for PGMs, or heavy weapons.
Do you have any source/graphic like this that shows what load (in Kg, or t) each station can carry?






Would be interesting in regard of weapon loads, also can you tell me what kind of fuel tanks the J10 carries, I mean with how much fuel?


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## abaseen99



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## abaseen99



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## houshanghai



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## houshanghai



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## humza_313

i have heard that the russian government has threatened china not to sell the new j-11 (derivative of the su-27 flanker) to pakistan..!


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## humza_313

PurpleButcher said:


> going through the pic posted by danger zone I have noticed that the nose cone of FC-20 is smaller as compared to that of j-10a/b/x. And aesa radar perhaps requires a larger nose so how is this design credible?
> 
> Secondly Black Blood, you have pointed aesa just under the cockpit , is that the location of radars :~( ?



well the j-10 is actually smaller in size..


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

humza_313 said:


> i have heard that the russian government has threatened china not to sell the new j-11 (derivative of the su-27 flanker) to pakistan..!



well Pakistan is also not interested in buying j-11. 
it,s hard to mantain aircraft like j-11.
j-10b suits us


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## abaseen99




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## abaseen99

[/IMG]

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## abaseen99

different weapons of j 10a

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## abaseen99

J 10B WITH WS 10A engine for pakistan

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## abaseen99



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## Pk_Thunder



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## abaseen99




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## abaseen99



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## Pk_Thunder



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## !!craft!!

lovely pics!!


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## houshanghai



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## nightcrawler

What is this ??


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## DANGER-ZONE

nightcrawler said:


> What is this ??



*AS-17 'Krypton*





Kh-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## wangrong

danger-zone said:


> *AS-17 'Krypton*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kh-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



*it is YJ-91*

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## nightcrawler

J-10 has Russian radar?


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## WAQAS119



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## abaseen99

j 10b


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## abaseen99

J 10B WITH AESA RADAR

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Hmm any chance we can get them in 2011 ? I will go crazy waiting for 2014  these pictures look fantastic 

36 brand new babies , in our airforce ... with all the goods wow

I would love to get a plane in black and pirate theme ... J10B


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## Indestructible

Guys! Any new pictures of J-10*B*


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## sancho

abaseen99 said:


>



Are there more details available about the radar, how many T/R modules it will have for example?


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## Donatello

sancho said:


> Are there more details available about the radar, how many T/R modules it will have for example?



Start counting from the picture :p

Anyway, i think it would be classified for a while....


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## TaimiKhan

sancho said:


> Are there more details available about the radar, how many T/R modules it will have for example?



That is not a Chinese AESA radar pic, its an AN/APG-79 AESA radar pic.

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## lamdafriend

clearly the jf 17 will make pakistan a leading defence supplier for many of the third world nations. it will give pakistan the role of a god father eventually.its neighbour's counter part the tejas a.k.a the radiant won't beat jf 17 in the markets.thumps up

iam new to this site.pls tell me how to insert the avatar

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## AMCA

lamdafriend said:


> clearly the jf 17 will make pakistan a leading defence supplier for many of the third world nations. it will give pakistan the role of a god father eventually.*its neighbour's counter part the tejas a.k.a the radiant won't beat jf 17 in the markets.thumps up
> *
> iam new to this site.pls tell me how to insert the avatar



Look Sir, I hope You are not well aware of our Program, If You are not, Why would U bother speaking of it... If U need to Know more you may Come to Tejas Thread .... For Your Avatar, Go to user Cp(top left) then click edit avatar

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## sancho

TaimiKhan said:


> That is not a Chinese AESA radar pic, its an AN/APG-79 AESA radar pic.



Thanks, then any new news about the radar on J10B?


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## F-16_Falcon

abaseen99 said:


> J 10B WITH AESA RADAR


Pakistan is getting the J-10B, is it going to have AESA?

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## abaseen99

J-10 from Zhuhai airshow 
J-10 was clearly the star of the recent Zhuhai airshow. There were many UAVs, but J-10 attracted all of the attention. You can see many of its flight performances on youtube by searching "j-10 zhuhai air show". You will be able to find clips like this, this and this. We saw J-10 doing steep climbs, sharp turns and refueling with HU-6. It certainly prompted some new reactions to the plane. One of the more famous ones were posted by Stephen Trimble. The comment by a Moscow-based aerospace journalist is as follows.

I watched how the J-10 flew over Zhuhai, in 30 degree Celsius temperatures and high humidity.

The pilot did none of the show tricks like post-stall or tail slide or pitch-back, but turns were very tight, initial rate of turn very high. It was clear there is a lot of potential in this airplane to achieve the same maneuvers more quickly.

The pilot rarely used afterburner and the degrees of canard deflection were small. Still, the airplane flew very well. I reckon it will beat F-16C or MiG-29/SMT easily.

Now, I certainly feel vindicated that a Russian is actually really praising J-10 over Russian fighters. I'm still waiting for more article to come out on J-10 at the moment. I haven't seen anything by Richard Fisher or PKF on this.

The other revealing part about J-10 came out of an interview with Lei Qiang, one of the first J-10 test pilots. He certainly brought a lot of heated exchanges on Chinese bbs by saying that J-10 can do Cobra better than su-27. He also gave an interview with a magazine where he talked about his experiences with J-10. He talked about where J-10 was stronger and weaker. However, one of the more interesting thing that came out was a commentary online regarding Lei Qiang. The writer just talked about how the upper level in PLAAF didn't know how well J-10 would fare against su-27. So they asked Lei Qiang for his assessment. Unlike a more conservative/shy pilot would do, LQ clearly listed the areas that J-10 are better and the areas that su-27 are better. He ended it by saying that he definitely thinks J-10 can dominate su-27. So, they actually took su-27s flied by top pilots from one of the elite units and put it again J-10s flown by test pilots. And J-10 won handily. That is how J-10 project got supported. This man has also flown F-16 and Mirage III in Pakistan. He has also traveled to other country to see the tactics of other country's pilots. Basically, he has had some experience with modern Western fighters and tactics. His comments to PLAAF bosses and then the subsequent performance of J-10 vs su-27 probably ensured the success of the program.

And after the air show, we also heard PAF officials reiterating its desire to purchase about 2 squadrons of J-10. It's hard to say what is the next revelation of this plane. I suppose we will see J-10B's pictures coming out soon. We should also see WS-10A equipped J-10 pictures, although it's not that easy to differentiate that from AL-31FN equipped ones. I will also be waiting eagerly for next generation AAMs and PGMs (some of which were displayed in Zhuhai) equipped on J-10.

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## Jungibaaz

F-16_Falcon said:


> Pakistan is getting the J-10B, is it going to have AESA?



most likely...It will have AESA and alot of other goodies, FC-20 will be a beast

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## TaimiKhan

sancho said:


> Thanks, then any new news about the radar on J10B?



You know about Chinese stuff, info like these is hard to come by, especially since its in the development & testing stage. 

All for now we know is, NRIET made AESA is being tested on some J-10 model, rest we will know in a few years time after the product has gone through its development stage.

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## SBD-3

TaimiKhan said:


> You know about Chinese stuff, info like these is hard to come by, especially since its in the development & testing stage.
> 
> All for now we know is, NRIET made AESA is being tested on some J-10 model, rest we will know in a few years time after the product has gone through its development stage.



well taking you point, PAF will certainly like to add a mature AESA on J-10B (highly likely Vixen-500/1000 as PAF will have more trust in Selex Galilio's products since its been a long time customer of these).Well, NRIET AESA.......I dont think so PAF would risk its front liner to be dependent upon a relatively new development rather than a product from trusted supplier.


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## TaimiKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> well taking you point, PAF will certainly like to add a mature AESA on J-10B (highly likely Vixen-500/1000 as PAF will have more trust in Selex Galilio's products since its been a long time customer of these).Well, NRIET AESA.......I dont think so PAF would risk its front liner to be dependent upon a relatively new development rather than a product from trusted supplier.



Buddy, Chinese AESA systems are already in operational use, their KJ-2000 AESA based AWACS platform is in use since 2003, while the KJ-200 platform is also in use since 2005-06, and China has been playing with AESA since late 90s, thus its already more then a decade since the Chinese are playing around with AESA. Their HQ-9 series SAM system have AESA based radars, their Type-052C destroyer has AESA radar for the naval version HQ-9 missiles. 

So, China has more AESA based platforms operational compared to Europeans i believe, Selex platform would be good, but they are also yet to deploy these radars operationally. While China has as mentioned many active operational platforms in service, thus plz don't underestimate the Chinese AESA radars, they have good experience in it and are building more of them and based on this experience, they are gonna be making AESA based radars for the coming fighter jets. 

Currently China has 8 aerial platforms being used as AWACS & AEW&C, 3 KJ-2000s and 5 KJ-200s. 2 ships of Type-052C with AESA radars and 2-3 more on the way, and numerous HQ-9 batteries equipped with the AESA radars. 

I think, the above is sufficient to tell that China is doing good in the AESA tech and have sufficient experience for PAF to go with their technology.

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## Stealth

IMO J10B version especially make for Export (to Pakistan and few selective countries), I am pretty sure this time China will show some awesome Fighter jet with good quality of avionics and other Fighter related equipments.


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## PAFAce

TaimiKhan said:


> Buddy, Chinese AESA systems are already in operational use, their KJ-2000 AESA based AWACS platform is in use since 2003, while the KJ-200 platform is also in use since 2005-06, and China has been playing with AESA since late 90s, thus its already more then a decade since the Chinese are playing around with AESA. Their HQ-9 series SAM system have AESA based radars, their Type-052C destroyer has AESA radar for the naval version HQ-9 missiles.


I understand your point, but don't you think the argument made by *hasnain009* still stands? Ideally, PAF would not want to use relatively new fighter-borne AESA tech on the JF-17. There are already many untested systems on-board the JF-17, you don't want one of your most important systems to be brand new as well. 

If all else fails, a Chinese AESA will remain the only option (and I doubt any European AESA radars will be secured). However, we're discussing the ideal here, not reality.


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## TaimiKhan

PAFAce said:


> I understand your point, but don't you think the argument made by *hasnain009* still stands? Ideally, PAF would not want to use relatively new fighter-borne AESA tech on the JF-17. There are already many untested systems on-board the JF-17, you don't want one of your most important systems to be brand new as well.
> 
> If all else fails, a Chinese AESA will remain the only option (and I doubt any European AESA radars will be secured). However, we're discussing the ideal here, not reality.



Yups Sir, the argument still stands, but problem is, even Europe has to for now produce a tested AESA platform for its fighters. CAPTOR-E is still to become operational and Selex is a part of this project. RBE2-AA is to become operational in Rafale by 2012. And then the JAS-39 Gripen NG again would be having an AESA radar in which Selex is again gonna be playing a part. Thus Selex is another option for us, except for that we have no other European option, leaving aside the Americans & Russians. 

So looking at the Europeans, we have just one good bet and that would be the Vixen series from a good reliable partner for us, Selex galileo, the ones who gave us the Grifo radar, Falco UAV and other stuff. And then we have the Chinese. So, just 2 options for us, and the best one and most reliable one would be the Chinese. Plus as i mentioned, the Chinese seem to be using more of these AESA based platforms and have operationalized compared to Europeans, so my bet and guess would be that China may be having more experience and tested platforms compared to Europeans, as in Europe only Sweden has good experience with their Erieye AESA based platform, rest are still doing research, development and future operational plans. 

I would have gone with Selex option for JF-17s and Chinese option for FC-20s, so that we can know the performance parameters between the both and can judge which is more good and reliable. 

Plus as i said, China has lot of active platforms with AESA tech, it would most probably mean they are more confident on their tech and are maturing it more rapidly. Their major platforms are equipped with AESA radars, so if they are so confident about it, why shouldn't we be ??

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## sancho

TaimiKhan said:


> Plus as i mentioned, the Chinese seem to be using more of these AESA based platforms and have operationalized compared to Europeans, so my bet and guess would be that China may be having more experience and tested platforms compared to Europeans, as in Europe only Sweden has good experience with their Erieye AESA based platform, rest are still doing research, development and future operational plans.



I don't think this is correct nor representative, because you have to consider that Europe is split in different countries, while China is one. China spends much more in developing this tech,and also fielding them, while in Europe, the countries are competitiors and develop techs, but often as tech demonstrators and not field all of them into operational service. But that doesn't mean they have not more experience compared to China. Ericsson (now Saab), or Selex have long experience with AESA radars, Erieye as you know is flying for a long time, so are older Selex radars, EF and Rafale has started their AESA radar developments in the early 2000s and the RBE 2 is ready and even in production.
Bottom line is, only because they have not the money to field all their techs, it doesn't mean they have not vast experience with them!
I don't understimates Chinas abilities, but I have some doubt about their radar and avionics beeing comparable to western.
But we can compare them only if we have reliable sources and specs of comparable Chinese radars.

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## abaseen99



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## houshanghai



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## somebozo

When is FC20 flying in PAF colors?? its a beautiful bird indeed and will make an eye appealing candy next to F16.


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## applesauce

^^ it would take many years for that to happen, first the next block(j10B) need to be standardized first then the production lines have to be set up and the current A version production needs to be stopped or switched over, the newer just built "A" version arnt gonna be upgraded for years after that due to costs and the fact that they are brand new

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Wasnt vixen 500 AESA offered for JFT?not FC-20!


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## TaimiKhan

sancho said:


> I don't think this is correct nor representative, because you have to consider that Europe is split in different countries, while China is one. China spends much more in developing this tech,and also fielding them, while in Europe, the countries are competitiors and develop techs, but often as tech demonstrators and not field all of them into operational service. But that doesn't mean they have not more experience compared to China. Ericsson (now Saab), or Selex have long experience with AESA radars, Erieye as you know is flying for a long time, so are older Selex radars, EF and Rafale has started their AESA radar developments in the early 2000s and the RBE 2 is ready and even in production.
> Bottom line is, only because they have not the money to field all their techs, it doesn't mean they have not vast experience with them!
> I don't understimates Chinas abilities, but I have some doubt about their radar and avionics beeing comparable to western.
> But we can compare them only if we have reliable sources and specs of comparable Chinese radars.



Well i did not said that Europe has less experience then China, my POV was with respect to operational deployment of AESA radars, where China has more experience compared to Europe, as due to whatever reason, they have more AESA based techs on the field, airborne system, land based system & sea based system all are in operational use and for many years now. So, Europe must be in this field before China entered, but since China fielded in operational use more of these assets, thus they may have more experience in the field related experience. As testing and development experience and operational experience are both different and have different results. And I did mention that Selex and Saab are the ones with major experience in this field. 

Chinese may be not equal to Western, but since they have more assets in service, it gives them better edge to learn about the issues in the field operations and as told before, they seem to have good trust in their systems, thus deploying them in numbers now. 

And Europeans would be no less then anyone, as their vast experience when combined together would result in a very good product. Even in start and currently also, European systems have American components too, which hopefully in future would become all European.

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## SQ8

There is a possibility that the Chinese have rushed their AESA into the field.. deciding to complete all trails while deployed..and iron out any problems in the field.


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## BATMAN

Santro,, what is this circuit board as your avatar?

I see FO connections.. seems to me like some signal interface and processor!


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well to be honest , most europeans also complete products with defects just look at Euro fighters , it crashed so often 

Yet the marketing ppl keep spreading stuff that it is the most stable most deadly weapon ever built yet it crashes in Saudia , crashes in Europe been cancelled by few and then ordered here and there. 

The cloack of European "Quality" is sorta disappearing its a myth that started with cars like BMW how great and efficient they are this and that but now all the stuff is out sourced and that idea is dead now same with Euro fighter its outsoured plane 

Vs the J10B is a 100% built plane in China , and its well tested - 10 years + how much more testing can it get infact 

And now China is making J11 and J10 and JF17 thunder so they already have mastered the art of making Awesome fighter planes 

Even the outer body and shape , and design used to be a european/american advantage but look at J10B its just a amazing looking plane unique and 100% chinese and even then the haters will try to credit Israelis ofr the plane if Israeli are so great why don't they make a plane ?  the bottom line is they were horrible at it and so that was it 

China created J10B with hard work , and it pays off 

Once we induct the 36 J10B in our fleet we will be wonderful balanced force , 36 airsuperiority fighters, and 75 F16 in support role

300 JF17 thunder for multi purpose missions.

And lets not forget 200 Mirages that are are still operational armed with SD-10 BVR

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## araz

RaptorRX707 said:


> ^ 2014-2015 approximately.
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, can someone clarify if China is going to replace all current J-10A to *advanced J-10B * near future, correct? so no longer on J-10A?



No. However new ones maybe j10B or similar configuration.
araz

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## Pfpilot

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Vs the J10B is a 100% built plane in China , and its well tested - 10 years + how much more testing can it get infact
> 
> And now China is making J11 and J10 and JF17 thunder so they already have mastered the art of making Awesome fighter planes
> 
> Even the outer body and shape , and design used to be a european/american advantage but look at J10B its just a amazing looking plane unique and 100% chinese and even then the haters will try to credit Israelis ofr the plane if Israeli are so great why don't they make a plane ?  the bottom line is they were horrible at it and so that was it



I was under the impression that the Isrealis did provide some input through their Lavi project during the development of the J-10. I think its wrong to claim the Isrealis were horrible at building planes. They are a small nation with a relatively small military budget; when you can buy US planes at subsidized prices, what is the reasoning for developing your own. Instead the Isrealis have focused development on specific key parts in order to customize US planes to their liking, far more cost effective, F-16I is a perfect example.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Isreal produces no planes just some drones and some electrical and computing research and development even that is stolen US goods 

I think too much credit is given to Israel's contribution why would China that produced its own russian versioned planes LONG before , J11, J10 JF17 etc would want to learn from Israel ? 

Really 

Its like asking a blind person to teach me how to see the light when Israel has not produced a single fighter of its own how can they possibly teach anyone else if anything ...its a GIMICK to steal away from Chinese engineer's vision and innovation ....


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## conworldus

The Lavi project helped great deal in J-10's development, and the knowledge has been fully absorbed by China's engineers. Innovation is never about reinventing the wheel. It is about improvement. J-10 is the point when China starts to develop its own line of military aviation. Future Chinese planes will not be Russian, American, or European. They will be Chinese concept and Chinese innovation. The J-10 is already radically different from the original Lavi, and it is on a level that Israel cannot possibly achieve alone by itself.

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## siegecrossbow

houshanghai said:


>



I really wish that the PLAAF would paint the dragon insignia but it probably won't happen.

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## abaseen99



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## abaseen99




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## TOPGUN

Iam really die to see our fc-20's when we get them can't wait


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## Introvert

TOPGUN said:


> Iam really die to see our fc-20's when we get them can't wait



In 2014...


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## abaseen99

TOPGUN said:


> Iam really die to see our fc-20's when we get them can't wait



bhai sabar ka phal meeta hota ha

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## dbc

sancho said:


> I don't think this is correct nor representative, because you have to consider that Europe is split in different countries, while China is one. China spends much more in developing this tech,and also fielding them, *while in Europe, the countries are competitior*s and develop techs, but often as tech demonstrators and not field all of them into operational service.



I suppose you've never heard of the EUROGaAs initiative, the EUROGaAs is an initiative launched in the mid 90's as a combined European effort to improve the competitiveness and erode American and Japanese dominance of the microwave industry. There are several reason the Europeans have struggled to get beyond technology demonstrators to full fledged production and operational deployment of AESA radar. Primary among them is the production maturity required to manufacture GaAs in sufficient quantities economically - in this regard the Europeans are still uncompetitive.

The Chinese are comfortably ahead of Europe in their ability to manufacture MMIC (Monolithic Microwave Integrated Circuit).

I'll stop now, I'm afraid someone will accuse me of being Chinese....

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## Donatello

Baazi said:


> In 2014...



The number of PAF personal working in China, seems like we might get a small batch before 2014. And maybe, PAC kamra production after that as JF-17 production starts to wind down??


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## Hulk

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I suppose you've never heard of the EUROGaAs initiative, the EUROGaAs was initiative launched in the mid 90's as a combined European effort to improve the competitiveness and erode American and Japanese dominance of the microwave industry. There are several reason the Europeans have struggled to get beyond technology demonstrators to full fledged production and operational deployment of AESA radar. Primary among them is the production maturity required to manufacture GaAs in sufficient quantities economically - in this regard the Europeans are still uncompetitive.
> 
> The Chinese are comfortably ahead of Europe in their ability to manufacture MMIC (Monolithic Microwave Integrated Circuit).
> 
> I'll stop now, I'm afraid someone will accuse me of being Chinese....



Are you on payroll from Boeing? If yes you are doing an awesome Job on MRCA thread.


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## lianwei



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## dbc

indianrabbit said:


> Are you on payroll from Boeing?



lol no, I can't stand Rafale fan boys


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

J10B in none reflective - black color theme with white tail pirate theme hmm would be fantastic plane







This is sorta like grey non reflective paint job ... just some fancy mumbo jumbo done to convince Saudis to buy it 






HMM ... imagination





Something like this perhaps color wise





Hmm j10b in this color would look just perfect ...


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## S-A-B-E-R->

siegecrossbow said:


> I really wish that the PLAAF would paint the dragon insignia but it probably won't happen.



guys again my query stays the nose cone of fc 20 looks smaller and different than j10 b?or is it just me ?


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## Mani2020

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> guys again my query stays the nose cone of fc 20 looks smaller and different than j10 b?or is it just me ?



lol where you have seen fc-20 it is not out yet .it is either j-10 A or j-10B 

and the pictures above posted in Paf color scheme are j-10b


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## humza_313

TOPGUN said:


> Iam really die to see our fc-20's when we get them can't wait



4 years dude..>! but i really wish we could acquire the j-11s..!


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## Luftwaffe

There is no confirmation of FC-20s exact delivery in 2014. Either we would see it earlier then 2014 or in or after 2014.


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## Jungibaaz

self-delete


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## abaseen99

j 10b with different modification


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## Bossman

I have a question for every one who has posted on this thread. Why is the FC-20 being called MRCA? MRCA is term developed by IAF for its needs. It is not a generic terms and has never been used by PAF. Kinda reflects the immaturity of folks on this site.


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## SMC

MRCA means Multi-role combat aircraft. It's not developed by IAF, rather IAF and Indians are using the term to describe the aircrafts they want to buy. It is indeed a generic term for all multi role combat aircrafts, and FC-20/J-10B will indeed be a multi role combat aircraft.

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## siegecrossbow

abaseen99 said:


> j 10b with different modification



Who took the close up pict of the DSI intake? That person must have some guts since the J-10B hasn't been officially disclosed yet.


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## S.U.R.B.

That last one isn't the DSI intake of J-10B.


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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> Who took the close up pict of the DSI intake? That person must have some guts since the J-10B hasn't been officially disclosed yet.



This is J-10A's intake, notice the upward wedge on the upperside and straightish structure of intake rather than fwd leaning DSI on J-10B


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## S-A-B-E-R->

Mani2020 said:


> lol where you have seen fc-20 it is not out yet .it is either j-10 A or j-10B
> 
> and the pictures above posted in Paf color scheme are j-10b



actually i was referring to the pick Russians issued 
http://i3.6.cn/cvbnm/b9/fc/87/f7037ec4a1a29ff32e8d9091354a005f.jpg
you can clearly see there


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## Luftwaffe

*I have a question for every one who has posted on this thread. Why is the FC-20 being called MRCA? MRCA is term developed by IAF for its needs. It is not a generic terms and has never been used by PAF. Kinda reflects the immaturity of folks on this site. *

Abbreviation MRCA Multirole Combat Aircraft term is not harmful so can be used by any nation for their requirement for the Fighter Jets.

Factually PAF's requirement and the right term is ATA-ATF Advance Tactical Aircraft/Fighter or can also be called ADTA


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## Mani2020

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> actually i was referring to the pick Russians issued
> http://i3.6.cn/cvbnm/b9/fc/87/f7037ec4a1a29ff32e8d9091354a005f.jpg
> you can clearly see there



i don't think there is any reality in what they showed as fc-20 ,nobody can say anything untill and unless the original thing comes out.untill than its anybody's guess


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Luftwaffe said:


> There is no confirmation of FC-20s exact delivery in 2014. Either we would see it earlier then 2014 or in or after 2014.



One thing that makes China stand out is that THEY KEEP THEIR PROMIS AND DELIVERY DATES 

That is why the world prefers to buy from China 2014 it is

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## Bossman

SMC said:


> MRCA means Multi-role combat aircraft. It's not developed by IAF, rather IAF and Indians are using the term to describe the aircrafts they want to buy. It is indeed a generic term for all multi role combat aircrafts, and FC-20/J-10B will indeed be a multi role combat aircraft.



The term MRA i.e. was used only for Panavia Tornado and after that the only country to use the term MRCA or MMRCA is India. As far as PAF is concerned all it's recent or future acquistions are multirole i.e. JF-17, F-16 Blk 52 or the FC-20 so using the term MRCA for the FC-20 is really redundant and does say anything unique about the acquistion. PAF has never used the term either internally or publicly.


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## SBD-3

Bossman said:


> The term MRA i.e. was used only for Panavia Tornado and after that the only country to use the term MRCA or MMRCA is India. As far as PAF is concerned all it's recent or future acquistions are multirole i.e. JF-17, F-16 Blk 52 or the FC-20 so using the term MRCA for the FC-20 is really redundant and does say anything unique about the acquistion. PAF has never used the term either internally or publicly.



FC-20 will though be capable of MRMs but will be used as air superiority rather than true MRCA. So we will have MR Fleet (JFTs and Falcons) and Air domninence Fleet (FC-20)


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## Luftwaffe

*One thing that makes China stand out is that THEY KEEP THEIR PROMIS AND DELIVERY DATES
That is why the world prefers to buy from China 2014 it is *

Bhai read my post.
You and others can say 4 years or 2014 as long as we don't have confirmed dates we'll be waiting..be it in 2014 awesome for us, the point is exact date is not given only if pak def dot com sources confirms it on here.

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## fatman17

Luftwaffe said:


> *One thing that makes China stand out is that THEY KEEP THEIR PROMIS AND DELIVERY DATES
> That is why the world prefers to buy from China 2014 it is *
> 
> Bhai read my post.
> You and others can say 4 years or 2014 as long as we don't have confirmed dates we'll be waiting..be it in 2014 awesome for us, the point is exact date is not given only if pak def dot com sources confirms it on here.



delivery is 'planned' on or around 2014, if all PAF requirements are catered for - the issue is the powe-plant - russia has as yet not given 'ok' to use their engine, so a chinese engine wld be fitted on the FC-20. anyway still too early to predict what will happen.

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## silent hawk

hasnain0099 said:


> FC-20 will though be capable of MRMs but will be used as air superiority rather than true MRCA. So we will have MR Fleet (JFTs and Falcons) and Air domninence Fleet (FC-20)



From what I hear the breakdown shall be in the Hi tech and medium tech fighters. FC-20 and F-16 shall make about 150 Hi tech fighters pitted against 400 odd Hitech SU-30, Mig29 and Mirage2000. Similarly there shall be about 250 JF-17s against 500 odd Indian Medium and low tech aircrafts. The defensive balance shall hence remain.


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## Manticore

silent hawk said:


> From what I hear the breakdown shall be in the Hi tech and medium tech fighters. FC-20 and F-16 shall make about 150 Hi tech fighters pitted against 400 odd Hitech SU-30, Mig29 and Mirage2000. Similarly there shall be about 250 JF-17s against 500 odd Indian Medium and low tech aircrafts. The defensive balance shall hence remain.



jf17 blk1,2,3--- would take care of most of iaf fighters other than su30

for su30, we will have a combo of medium weight mrca f16/fc20 

paf pilots have flown 'in'' , 'against' and 'with' most of modern western fighters

Input from paf viper pilots and chinese flanker pilots -- 

Experience of manufacturing j10a /jf17 /j11b

4years to upgrade an already operational fighter means some serious modifications

We might just get a very lethal fighter j10b ''devastator''

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## Luftwaffe

*delivery is 'planned' on or around 2014, if all PAF requirements are catered for - the issue is the powe-plant - russia has as yet not given 'ok' to use their engine, so a chinese engine wld be fitted on the FC-20. anyway still too early to predict what will happen. *

Sensible answer.

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## abaseen99



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## Manticore

ive made it right now, so audioswap wont be active on all pixel qualities yet--

plz do switch between the qualities, till you get sound-- i like the song!


Eurofighter Typhoon vs J-10B Comparison

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## abaseen99

J-10B Vigorous Dragon 
The 01/1031 prototype of the new J-10B was unveiled in March 2009, 3 months after its maiden flight in December 2008. This much improved variant features a DSI/bump engine inlet which not only cuts weight but also reduces RCS, after a similar design was first tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. The aircraft also features a J-11B style IRST/LR and a wide-angle holographic HUD. IRST enables passive detection of enemy aircraft, making J-10B more stealthy in combat. Its nose appears flatter too, similar to that of American F-16, and fire-control radar is thought to be an X-band AESA developed by the 607 Institute, the first of such type ever being developed for a Chinese fighter aircraft, giving J-10B a stronger multi-target engagement and ECCM capability. Two large ECM pods are attached under the wings. The tip of vertical tailfin was redesigned as well, featuring a large fairing containing communication and ECM antennas, which resembles that of French Mirage 2000. A rear facing MAWS sensor can be seen underneath the parachute boom. A similar system was tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. RAM coating is also expected in certain areas such as engine inlet and wing leading edges to reduce RCS. The aircraft may be fitted with CFTs in the future to further extend its range. All these improvements suggest that J-10B is equipped with a new generation of integrated electronic system, ranging from radar to EW system. Its mission may be changed from air-superiority to multi-purpose, such as AG or EW. In addition, the aircarft is expected to be powered eventually by an indigenous WS-10A turbofan. Overall J-10B is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60. The 03 prototype first flew in August 2009, with the pitot tube rumoved from the nose tip. It is possible that J-10B may serve only as a testbed for various advanced technologies adopted by the 4th generation .

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## topgun787

PAK WILL HAVE EVEN MORE MODIFIED VERSION OF J10 B


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## abaseen99

http://v.ku6.com/show/U3RQi7NEmxhPQxDB.html


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## houshanghai



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## Manticore

The Year in Defense 2010 Aerospace Edition

read in full screen [j10]
The Year in Defense 2010 Aerospace Edition

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## abaseen99

J-10B
The J-10B is a modified variant of the J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, with modifications in airframe and avionics. Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) of AVIC began to develop a follow-on variant of its J-10 fighter around 2004/05. A J-10B prototype reportedly made its maiden flight in December 2008. 

Photos of the aircraft began to emerge on the Chinese Internet in March 2009. Once commissioned, the J-10B is likely going to become the standard for later J-10 productions.
Rampless Inlet 

The J-10B features a chin-mounted diffuser supersonic inlet (DSI) air inlet. The traditional rectangle-shape air inlet on the J-10 requires a large moveable inlet ramp to generate a rearward leaning oblique shock wave to aid the inlet compression process. The ramp sits at an acute angle to deflect the intake air stream from the longitudinal direction. The air inlets comprises many moving parts, which increases the aircraft&#8217;s weight and radar reflections.The newly designed rampless inlet, first tested on the FC-1/JF-17 fighter design by Chengdu, employs a one-piece bump at the top of the inlet replacing the movable ramp. This eliminates all moving parts on the inlet, lightening the overall weight and reducing the aircraft&#8217;s radar signature. 

Electro-Optic Targeting System
The J-10B has been added with an electronic-optic targeting system (EOTS) commonly found on all fourth-generation Russian fighter aircraft such as Su-27 and MiG-29. Placed forward of the cockpit canopy to the right, the system comprises an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor and a laser rangefinder, which can detect enemy targets passively without requiring to turn on the fire-control radar, thus reducing the chance of the aircraft being detected. The EOTS of the J-10B is likely based on a Russian design.
Tailfin ECM Pod
The upper edge of J-10B&#8217;s tailfin is curved, in contrast to the straight-edged tailfin of the J-10. A large fairing is added to the tip of the tailfin to accommodate electronic warfare and countermeasures (EW/ECM) equipment. 

ECM Antenna Array
The J-10B has four black antenna arrays attached externally to the fuselage, a larger one on either side of the cockpit and a smaller one on either side of the rear fuselage near the engine nozzle. The specific purpose of these antennas is unknown but they are thought to be for electronic countermeasures purpose.

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## abaseen99



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## abaseen99




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## abaseen99



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## Mani2020

abaseen99 said:


>



It is not J-10 its Israel's Lavi


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## fatman17

abaseen99 said:


>



looks like the defunct israeli LAVI fighter or a F-16?


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## siegecrossbow

fatman17 said:


> looks like the defunct israeli LAVI fighter or a F-16?



normal F-16s don't have canards. Definitely a Lavi.

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## Manticore

i had a couple of lavi pics saved in my pc-- here u go!

http://dc181.*******.com/img/5bfFh1Al/0.27693416884323885/lavi.gif

http://dc244.*******.com/img/Gw7wKYOI/0.6092586465811997/IAI-Lavi-B-2-hatzerim-2.jpg

you can see lavi written under the cockpit


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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> normal F-16s don't have canards. Definitely a Lavi.



what do you think would be the possible differences between PAF version and PLAAF version of J-10B.....apart from some local and western avionics. As i am highly skeptical that PAF version would feature same critical and advanced components as PLAAF, so IMHO J-10B will still remain superior to FC-20 in some key areas e.g. systems and avionics


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

This plane is definitly not a J10B ... lol 

I mean this is just a F16 A/B mini white painted with a horrible canopy 

*J10B is a100&#37; Chinese Innovation and design , I mean just look the length of the plane , and the engine , and the amazing delta wing chinese plane had I mean the agility of the plane is just beyond any possible with even F16 *

This is another one of those moment when in Manhatten project 130,000 people scientiest took part and for some reason , "MEDIA" opted to make one guy e=mc2 has the brain child of Atomic bomb , and then it just clicked to me why ? And please even the atomic theory was brain child of several scientist 

To say that LEVi is something is funny I rather compare it some what to F16 the experimental delta wing design 

But the J10B just is a New plane - its better then F16 and LEVI was a experimental RC plane more comparable to K8 even K8 is more reliable

I will give credit where its due , I mean I am a big Spielberg fan and also appreciate Natlie Portman etc but I mean really J10B is copy of LEVI is a far fetched idea


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## SQ8

Back in the early 80's.. Isreali engineers requested an extra course on the F-16 with the designers themselves, such as aerodynamics, construction , avionics etc.. as they said "to allow for better maintenance".
However.. the knowledge they gained on the F-16 was used on the Lavi using US funding.. it took a lot of American pressure to cancel that program.. had it stayed.. Israel would no longer look to the US for hardware..
As much as people would like to think..the US Israel relationship is a lot of give and take.. and the Americans did not want to lose an important customer...even though its American tax payer money that pays for that hardware.. weird world this is.

The Israelis did provide an initial study for the J-10.. but think of it as primary school..the rest of it was all in house. Which is why the J-10 is distinctively different from the Lavi.

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## malikkhawar

China&#8217;s Jian-10/ FC-20 4+ generation fighter.

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## malikkhawar

The Pakistan Air Force has unveiled plans to purchase, build and fly more than 150 J-10 planes, one the finest flying birds in the Chinese inventory. This acquision (which includes shared development, improvement in design, and local manufacting in Pakistan) will add unprecedented fire power to the PAF which is continueing to build, and export the JF-17 Thunders. Islamabad plans to build more than 500 JF-17 Thunders and keep at least 250 of these for its own use.
Some versions of the redesigned J-10s will take off in 2009, however the official flight date for the Pakistani FC-20s is 2015, but in actuality the Pakistanis are way ahead on the schedule and working beyond the J-10 redesigns. The PAF is looking beyond the JF-17 thunders and the J-10s. The design for the next generation of Pakistani aircraft has already begun. The Chinese J-10s are ready for export now. The rediesgn and upgrade of the FC-20s will take about five more years. Here is a report by Defense Industry Daily, a very respectable news source on defense equipment.Pakistani FC-20s--improved and redesigned versions of J-10s made per Pakistani specifications--will be manufactured in Pakistan: In November 2009, a long-rumored deal was announced for China&#8217;s Jian-10/ FC-20 4+ generation fighter.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

malikkhawar said:


> The Pakistan Air Force has unveiled plans to purchase, build and fly more than 150 J-10 planes, one the finest flying birds in the Chinese inventory. This acquision (which includes shared development, improvement in design, and local manufacting in Pakistan) will add unprecedented fire power to the PAF which is continueing to build, and export the JF-17 Thunders. Islamabad plans to build more than 500 JF-17 Thunders and keep at least 250 of these for its own use.
> Some versions of the redesigned J-10s will take off in 2009, however the official flight date for the Pakistani FC-20s is 2015, but in actuality the Pakistanis are way ahead on the schedule and working beyond the J-10 redesigns. The PAF is looking beyond the JF-17 thunders and the J-10s. The design for the next generation of Pakistani aircraft has already begun. The Chinese J-10s are ready for export now. The rediesgn and upgrade of the FC-20s will take about five more years. Here is a report by Defense Industry Daily, a very respectable news source on defense equipment.Pakistani FC-20s--improved and redesigned versions of J-10s made per Pakistani specifications--will be manufactured in Pakistan: In November 2009, a long-rumored deal was announced for Chinas Jian-10/ FC-20 4+ generation fighter.



Post the link.


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## Manticore

PAFs lethal potency&#8211;150 FC-20s, 250 JF-17 Thunders & 75 F-16s Rupee News


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## Mani2020

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Post the link.



lol surely it would be rupee news


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

So who sponsors the Rupee news ? I am so curious reading Rupee news makes my day 

Is ISI or Chinese sponsoring it , I just want to congradulate the organization that runs that covert operation


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## Storm Force

Lavi looks amazing.

J10 looks to long and big to be JUST POWERED by a single engine. 

I don,t think it could match a twin engined fighter for range or acceleration.


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## graphican

Storm Force said:


> Lavi looks amazing.
> 
> J10 looks to long and big to be JUST POWERED by a single engine.
> 
> I don,t think it could match a twin engined fighter for range or acceleration.



You just witnessed its performance in the link given above.. J-10 is 10/10! Not an inch short of a complete challenger to any western 4+ gen fighter which are though twin-engined.


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## Pfpilot

Storm Force said:


> Lavi looks amazing.
> 
> J10 looks to long and big to be JUST POWERED by a single engine.
> 
> I don,t think it could match a twin engined fighter for range or acceleration.



oh my god people! The whole Chinese establishment has failed, only one engine for the j-10! How could they ever approve a single engine fighter! Quick, someone get Chengdu on the line and tell them to slap on another engine or two because super engineer storm force is skeptical about its capabilities. 
Its one thing to dislike a plane or its capabilities, but at least provide some sort of tangible evidence. Twin engines are great, on a heavier plane; unless the idea is to use j-10 as a transport to the moon, I think we are good.

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## General General

Storm Force said:


> Lavi looks amazing.
> 
> J10 looks to long and big to be JUST POWERED by a single engine.
> 
> I don,t think it could match a twin engined fighter for range or acceleration.



It's the power out-put of an engine that counts, not the number. The JSF is powered by a single engine and performs better than 2 engine A-5 Fantan. (This comparison is given keeping your logic as the point of view)

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## Mani2020

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> So who sponsors the Rupee news ? I am so curious reading Rupee news makes my day
> 
> Is ISI or Chinese sponsoring it , I just want to congradulate the organization that runs that covert operation



lol thats why you are always so optimistic like the author of rupeenews

BTW his name is Moin Ansari


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## siegecrossbow

I think that AL-31 is powerful enough to handle a medium fighter like the J-10. Just keep in mind that the F-16 and Mirage 2000 were also single engined jets.


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## sergente rehan

Storm Force said:


> Lavi looks amazing.
> 
> J10 looks to long and big to be JUST POWERED by a single engine.
> 
> I don,t think it could match a twin engined fighter for range or acceleration.



Damn you come up just now to tell us this important fact?! how could we have missed this...guys lets restart the project from the begining we have just figured out a main problem which we overlooked!


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## Manticore

Aeronautics - Stealth Fighters and Bombers in China / The Quest for Superpower Status

The JF-17 is in state of continual design evolution, it might be considered as an ongoing testbed for advanced features even as it has entered production for the PAF. It is light years past the Super-7 stage when it was basically a clone of the MiG-21. Stealthiness continues to improve via: nose redesign around a new AESA radar for reduced RCS; increased use of composite materials; a new RAM paint; and a new DSI with better performance at high altitudes and high speeds. The latest iteration of the WS-13 turbofan may be used in the stealthier JF-17, although improved Thrust to Weight Ratio (TWR) is mitigated by the weight increases due to increased wing size, larger internal fuel tanks and twin tails although increased use of light weight composites will be utilized.

Larger wing size brings with it improved high altitude maneuverability, and the capacity to utilize larger fuel tanks for greater range. How many of these important design changes go into production, as opposed to restriction to a technology demonstrator, is not clear. 'Officially', the major upgrade to the JF- 17 is scheduled for 2012 by which time Chinese made avionics and turbofan engine meet qualifications. A major, production upgrade to an export fighter should not be made until a first and major customer is contracted. Pakistan may also unveil a second advanced fighter in 2012 based upon the American F-16, block 60 as flown by the UAE Air Force. Or buy J-10s - ?J-10B  from China? Latest air to air missiles are being acquired from France. 

In March 2009. the prototype of the Chengdu J-10B was unveiled, three months after the maiden flight in December, 2008. The J-10 series is well known over several models, but the J-10B was shrouded in secrecy from its beginning b because of advanced features that are believed to include a significantly reduced radar cross section. A DSI/bump inlet engine reduces aircraft weight and tested favorably on the FC-1/JF-17 It was then adopted for the J-10B. A IRST/LR radar enables passive detection of enemy aircraft which increases the stealth advantage of the J-10B in combat scenarios. A flatter nose resembles that of the USA F-16. It is believed that the 601 Design Institute developed a X-band AESA fire control radar, the first of its kind for a Chinese fighter. This increases the J-10B multi-target engagement and ECCM capability (cf pods under wings)

The vertical tailfin has a large fairing and ECM antenna, similar to that on on the French Mirage 2000. First tested on the FC-1/JF-17, the J-10B has a rear facing fairing MAWS sensor is underneath the parachute boom. Radar cross section is further minimized by RAM coating at engine inlet and the leading edges of the wings. When production is on the horizon, the turbofan engine may be the Chinese made WS-10A. Overall, the J-10B represents a major advance and might be the testbed for the advanced avionics earmarked for the J-20 stealth fighter. Overall, it now is comparable to the USA F-16E/block 60 and might be soon designated a multi-mission fighter, with an acceptable to speed less than that of the J-10A. Latest photos show that the prototype with pitot tube removed from the nose which indicates that the 03 prototype has had its maiden flight.


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## houshanghai

only for reference

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## DANGER-ZONE

houshanghai said:


> only for reference



ha ha.....look what is written under the nose of J-10b *"FC-20 Export"* 
also translate this it says something about J-10b twin seater.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Who is this *Bridy Chang*, he have also painted Jf-17 that i posted in Jf-17 thread.


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## Manticore

yar, am i dreaming?? -- i got 1300 hits on my youtube video n the past 8 hours!! 

ive only posted this video's link here, no other forum

Eurofighter Typhoon vs J-10B / FC-20 Comparison


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## Manticore

houshanghai said:


> only for reference



venzuelian or spanish language?

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## abaseen99

j 10 with 12 hard points

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## SQ8

thats 9 hardpoints..(11 if you count the pod mounts)
the LGB's are on dual rails..
and thats the 4th repost of that pic


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## houshanghai

danger-zone said:


> Who is this *Bridy Chang*, he have also painted Jf-17 that i posted in Jf-17 thread.

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## abaseen99




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## abaseen99

J 10B



ISRAELI LAVI


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## Jungibaaz

abaseen99 said:


> J 10B
> 
> 
> 
> ISRAELI LAVI



for the love of God! STOP!

it also looks alot like the eurofighter! 
but you would expect delta wing aircraft with canards to look the same wouldn't you?

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## abaseen99




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## BATMAN

I hope FC-20 will have wing tip hardpoint as well.


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## houshanghai

J10 and lavi have different canard







jas39's canard Looks more like lavi 







j9&#8216;s canard

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## houshanghai

PAF Painting J10A,looks awsome.LOL

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## houshanghai

J10B AESA radar information 

GOOGLE TRANSLATE
LINK:Google Translate

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

This proves it once and for all that the J10B is 100% chinese plane , and pictures show that the Levi was just a (manufactured F16 with out licence in Israel) 


While J10B is a 100% chinese innovation and plane I mean its bigger , meaner , in PRODUCTION , candidate for Top 4 planes in world 

While the Levi was shut down becasue it was an illegal copy of F16 - and it was 80% size of F16 or something like that more like a testing miniture plane "model"

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## siegecrossbow

houshanghai said:


> J10 and lavi have different canard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jas39's canard Looks more like lavi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> j9s canard



Where did you find the J-10 and Lavi plastic models???

Any ways I really wished the the J-9 went into production. Too bad China didn't have the right turbofan engine... The wind tunnel hours contributed significantly to J-10's development though.

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## houshanghai

siegecrossbow said:


> Where did you find the J-10 and Lavi plastic models???
> 
> Any ways I really wished the the J-9 went into production. Too bad China didn't have the right turbofan engine... The wind tunnel hours contributed significantly to J-10's development though.



from fat sheep
link:http://www.fyjs.cn/viewarticle.php?id=241075

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## malikkhawar

J10B - LAVI & JAS39's looks similar but i doesnt mater....
one of then is cancelled..other two are flying.


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## DANGER-ZONE

houshanghai said:


>



hey can u tell me from where i can buy these models online ?

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## houshanghai

danger-zone said:


> hey can u tell me from where i can buy these models online ?



i only know chinese web-shop,

e-bay or other webshop have these models Probably.

china link

j10

http://translate.google.com/transla...BB%FA&pid=mm_13340738_0_0&unid=0&mode=63&cat=

jf17

http://translate.google.com/transla...BB%FA&pid=mm_13340738_0_0&unid=0&mode=63&cat=

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## SQ8

Jungibaaz said:


> for the love of God! STOP!
> 
> it also looks alot like the eurofighter!
> but you would expect delta wing aircraft with canards to look the same wouldn't you?



There are elements of the Lavi's design that made it into the J-10..
the Wings and canards arent the part..
Structural knowhow.. etc. 
But those that call the J-10 a descendant of the Lavi are incorrect.. it is a descendant of the J-9.. albeit with inputs from the Lavi program.

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## siegecrossbow

danger-zone said:


> hey can u tell me from where i can buy these models online ?



Haha the J-10B model is out despite the fact that it is still officially a "secret". Wonder what the PLAAF has to say about this (hopefully they won't ask the toy makers to drink tea lol).


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## abaseen99



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## abaseen99



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## abaseen99



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## abaseen99



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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

D.R.A.G.O.N !!! power for get the viper and falcon

ITS DRAGON time!!!


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## malikkhawar

fc-20 rooks


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## SomeGuy

Why do all the PAF FC-20 depictions always show the plane with the standard J-10A rectangular air intake and not the redesigned DSI intake on J-10B?


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## SBD-3

SomeGuy said:


> Why do all the PAF FC-20 depictions always show the plane with the standard J-10A rectangular air intake and not the redesigned DSI intake on J-10B?



cuz they are all fanboy stuff..............


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## Tehmasib

sir. can u explain whats the different btw J10 and FC 20. what types of changes which PAF wants in J10 (for FC 20)................


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## Manticore

Tehmasib said:


> sir. can u explain whats the different btw J10 and FC 20. what types of changes which PAF wants in J10 (for FC 20)................



The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging - Grande Strategy

youtube video-
Eurofighter Typhoon vs J-10B / FC-20 Comparison

--
ive seen the pic for the first time----- look at the notice board at the airfield , prohibiting taking pictures!!

http://dc248.*******.com/img/GkHsduc6/0.1333689244187959/112604_58590224_Kinezi_ostaju_.jpg

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## Tehmasib

When FC-20 inducts by PAF ......2014. i am not sure that agreement sign by Pak and China or not.........I love this bird


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## siegecrossbow

ANTIBODY said:


> The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging - Grande Strategy
> 
> youtube video-
> Eurofighter Typhoon vs J-10B / FC-20 Comparison
> 
> --
> ive seen the pic for the first time----- look at the notice board at the airfield , prohibiting taking pictures!!
> 
> http://dc248.*******.com/img/GkHsduc6/0.1333689244187959/112604_58590224_Kinezi_ostaju_.jpg



More people would've agreed had they not built the air strip near a major road.

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## Manticore

siegecrossbow said:


> More people would've agreed had they not built the air strip near a major road.



i wasnt being sarcastic bro , i was just noticing the irony in the pic , that a person not only caught the notice board aswell as a lady taking a pic!


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## houshanghai

http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMjIyNzg5MTA4/v.swf
J10 fire missiles.

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## abdulbarijan

well Hello every one!! i heard a rumor about the J-10 that China will give it to Pak with ToT.. so is it confirmed by an official source...or is it just a rumor??


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## Jungibaaz

abdulbarijan said:


> well Hello every one!! i heard a rumor about the J-10 that China will give it to Pak with ToT.. so is it confirmed by an official source...or is it just a rumor??



ToT would be great!!! can anyone confirm this?


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## xuwei

Jungibaaz said:


> ToT would be great!!! can anyone confirm this?



What does 'ToT' mean?

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## Pak123

xuwei said:


> What does 'ToT' mean?



Transfer of technology

Technology transfer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Areesh

Jungibaaz said:


> ToT would be great!!! can anyone confirm this?



It hasn't been confirmed yet but it is possible looking at the past defence deals between Pakistan and China. Check this threaad it might give you some idea about any possible TOT of J-10.

J10 will come with TOT

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## conworldus

The aim of the J-10 is to be exported to other countries besides Pakistan after both China and Pakistan have acquired enough jets.

A ToT to Pakistan will enable all the links between Pakistan and Islamic nations to act as sells channel. Also important is that Pakistan possesses a number of western equipments. With Pakistan on ToT, China can draw configurations from western parts and modify certain components to fit foreign clients' needs much better.

In the next decades a combination of JF-17 and FC-20 will be a low/high end export options for many different countries. There will be a lot of money!

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## Tehmasib

FC-20/J-10 multirole fighter aircraft

The Jian-10 (J-10, or F-10 in its export name) is a single-engine, all-weather, high-performance multirole fighter aircraft designed and developed by Chengdu-based 611 Aircraft Design Institute and Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) for the Peoples Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). The aircraft was designed as an air-superiority fighter with beyond-visual-range air combat as well as surface attack capability. The J-10 is the first Chinese indigenous fighter aircraft that can match modern Western fighters in performance and capability. The aircraft entered the PLAAF service in 2003 and may soon become available to the export market.

Development of the J-10 by 611 Aircraft Designed Institute officially began in October 1986 in response to the PLAAFs demand for a new-generation fighter which could counter the fourth-generation fighters such as MiG-29 and Su-27 then being introduced by the Soviet Union. It was widely speculated that during its early years the J-10 development had benefited from the cancelled Israeli Aerospace Industry (IAI) Lavi lightweight fighter, though the allegation was strongly denied by the people involved in the J-10 project. In the 1990s, Russia also provided key assistance to the J-10 programme by providing its Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan engine as a replacement for the incapable Chinese indigenous WS-10 turbofan.

The J-10 has been developed under tight security and high secrecy. The first prototype, 1001, possibly powered by a Chinese indigenous WS-10 powerplant, made its first flight in mid-1996. However, the flight was not entirely successful and Chengdu engineers had gone through some redesign work. A modified third prototype 1003 made a successful flight on 22 March 1998the officially recognised first flight date of the J-10. Development of the two-seat fighter-trainer variant began in 2000 and the first flight took place on 26 December 2003.

The J-10 features a composite material airframe with low-mounted delta wings, front canard wings located near the cockpit, a large vertical tail, as well as two under-belly stabilising fins. The air intake located beneath the fuselage is rectangular in shape. The aircraft is the first Chinese-made fighter to be fitted with a large two-piece bubble canopy to provide 360 degrees of visual coverage for the pilot. A detachable fixed refuelling probe can be fitted on the starboard side of the nose near the cockpit.

The J-10 fighter achieves high manoeuvrability by using a large amount of composite materials in its fuselage and wing structures to reduce the its overall weight and thus increase the thrust-to-weight ratio. The aircraft design is aerodynamically unstable, to provide a high level of agility, low drag and enhanced lift. The pilot controls the aircraft through a computerised digital, quadruplex (four-channel) fly-by-wire (FBW) system, which provides artificial stabilisation and gust elevation to give good control characteristics throughout the flight envelope. The aircraft is also fitted with a digital fuel management system for fuel assumption efficiency.

The production variant J-10 is fitted with a Chinese indigenous (designation reported to be Type 1473) pulse-Doppler (PD) fire-control radar, which is capable of tracking 10 targets and attacking 4 of them simultaneously. The maximum detecting range was estimated to be around 100km. The aircraft has a glass cockpit with four multifunctional displays (MFD) and a head-up display (HUD) with 40 degree horizontal field-of-view. Other avionic systems may include GPS/INS navigations, air data computer, and ARW9101 radar warning receiver (RWR). The aircraft is not equipped with helmet-mounted sight (HMS) as many have predicted but the technology is available for integration with later variants.

The fighter has 11 external hardpoints for weapons and drop tanks. Air-to-air weapons include the Chinese indigenous PL-12 (SD-10) active radar-homing medium-range air-to-air missile and the PL-8 IR-homing short-range air-to-air missile. For the ground attack role, the aircraft can carry laser-guided bombs (LGB), free-fall bombs, and unguided rocket launcher pods.

The J-10 fighter is powered by a Russian-made AL-31FN turbofan engine rated at 17,857lb (79.43kN) dry and 27,557lb st (122.58kN) with afterburning. China has received 50 AL-31FN engines to built 40~50 fighters, and ordered an additional 100 engines in 2004 for follow-on productions. Later production variants may be fitted with a Chinese indigenous WS-10A Taihang turbofan.

J-10S Fighter-Trainer

The two-seat J-10 (reportedly designated J-10S) is identical to the single-seat J-10 in performance and avionic configuration. The forward fuselage of the aircraft was stretched to accommodate an additional pilot seat. Two pilots sit in tandem in the two-seat cockpit with one single large bubble canopy. The aircraft also has an enlarged dorsal spine to accommodate additional avionic for the second pilot.

The two-seat J-10 is deployed in amalgamation with the single-seat J-10 fighter by the PLAAF. The aircraft is mainly used for training purpose, but could also be used as a standard fighter aircraft if necessary. A Chinese report suggested that the aircraft could also be modified for the airborne command & control aircraft role, with the rear-seat pilot being the commander of a small four-plane formation.

History
1985: In the early 1980s, the PLAAF required a new-generation fighter aircraft that can compete with the Soviet Unions fourth-generation fighters (i.e. Su-27 and MiG-29). The single-engine air-superiority fighter aircraft J-10 proposed by Chengdu Aircraft Company and its substituted 611 Aircraft Design Institute was finally chosen by the PLAAF in 1985.

October 1986: The new fighter development programme was officially approved by the Chinese government and PLA. The programme began under the codename project 8610. The aircraft was designated J-10. SONG Wen-Cong was appoint as the chief designer of the aircraft. To help the J-10 development, China reportedly obtained some Western technologies including an example of the Lockheed F-16 fighter and a CFM International CFM56 turbofan engine core.

1987: China obtained the cancelled Israeli Aerospace Industries (IAI) Lavi (Lion) fighter technology. The Lavi fighter development began in October 1982 under the help of the United States, and the aircraft made the first flight in December 1986. However, the U.S. was not prepared to finance an aircraft that would compete in export market with the F-16C/D and F/A/-18C/D, and a dispute arose to the final cost. The Israeli Government was unable to finance the project along and the development programme was finally cancelled in 1987. The Lavi technologies including its aerodynamic design and software for the fly-by-wire system were later transferred to Chengdu to help the J-10 development. With the help of the Israelis, the Project 8610 entered full-scale development.

1990: As a result of the arms ban on China imposed by the U.S. and other Western countries following the June 1989 incident, China was unable to import key technologies such as turbofan engine which is crucial for the J-10 development. This has caused serious problems for the J-10 programme since neither China nor Israel was capable of developing the engine required by the J-10.

1993: Chengdu had constructed the first full-scale metal mockup of the J-10. Wind tunnel testing revealed potential problems with low-speed performance and less-than-expected maximum AOA at subsonic speeds. At the same time the main trend in fighter aircraft development was a transition from single-purpose fighters such as high-speed interceptor or low-altitude dogfighters to multirole aircraft combining good subsonic and supersonic air-to-air performance with extensive air-to-ground capabilities. Added requirements for air-to-ground operations called for an in-depth redesign of the J-10 to accommodate terrain-following radar, more and sturdier hardpoints, an entirely new targeting, flight control and navigation systems.

1996: The first prototype '1001' made its maiden flight but the design was not entirely successful.

The mid-1990s: Russia became involved in the J-10 development programme by contributing its Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan engine.

22 March 1998: After a 15-month delay, a modified second prototype '1003' made its maiden flight. The same year the aircraft received its official service designation "J-10". By then, the development programme was already two years behind the schedule.

1999: Chengdu had produced seven prototypes for flight testing. The first five were powered by an indigenous WS-10 engine while the last two were powered by a Russian-made AL-31F engine and also featured some modifications in avionics.

December 1999: Two J-10 prototypes were transferred from Chengdu to China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) based at Yanliang, Shaanxi Province for further flight tests and service evaluations.

2000: Development of the two-seat fighter-trainer variant J-10B officially began at Chengdu, with YANG Wei appointed as the chief designer.

May 2000: Intensive flight tests of the J-10 were carried out by CFTE at Yanliang. By late 2000 the flying models accumulated over 140 flight hours.

Summer 2000: The first successful live test of the ejector seat for the J-10 fighter was carried out on a test plane.

2001: China ordered 54 specially configured AL-31FN engines from Russia to power the initial batch of the J-10 fighter. These engines were received in 2002~04.

Summer 2002: After two years of flight tests in Yanliang, the J-10 prototypes were relocated to the PLAAFs Dingxin AFB in Shuang Cheng Zi, Gansu Province for weapon and fire-control tests.

28 June 2002: The first flight of the pre-production model J-10A. Small batch production of the aircraft began shortly after.

10 March 2003: J-10 fighter officially entered PLAAF service. Six J-10A fighter were delivered to the PLAAF Flight Test & Training Centre at Cangzhou AFB, Hebei Province for operational trial and evaluation. During the handover ceremony, two J-10 fighters made demonstration flights to senior PLA officials.

Spring 2003: The test of the J-10s fire-control radar was carried out onboard a modified Y-8 radar testbed in Shandong Province.

Summer 2003: The J-10 conducted its first successful aerial refuelling simulation.

26 December 2003: The two-seat J-10B fighter-trainer variant made its first flight.

December 2003: The first successful air-to-air missile test launch from the J-10.

Early 2004: The J-10 fighter received its design certificate, marking the ending of the 18-year development programme.

August 2004: The first J-10 regiment was formed in the PLAAF 44th Air Division based at Mengzi AFB, Yunnan Province. 

2005: The J-10B fighter-trainer variant completed its flight test and received its design certificate.

July 2005: China reportedly ordered an additional 100 modified AL-31FN engines worth US$300 million from Russia for more J-10 fighters. Production continues at a rate of 2~3 units per month at the moment.

Weapons
The fixed weapon on the J-10 includes a single-barrel 23mm internal cannon.

The aircraft has 11 stores stations  six under the wing and five under the fuselage. The inner wing and centre fuselage stations are plumped to carry external fuel tanks.

The aircraft carries a range of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons for different mission profiles. For a typical interception/air-superiority mission, the aircraft carries four PL-12 active radar-homing medium-range air-to-air missile and two PL-8 infrared-homing short-range air-to-air missiles.

For ground attack roles, the J-10 can carry up to six 500kg laser-guided bombs (LGB), free-fall bombs, and 90mm unguided rocket launcher pods.

The two front hardpoints under the fuselage can be used to carry target acquisition and navigation pods.

Powerplant
The J-10 prototypes were reportedly powered by a Chinese indigenous WS-10 turbofan engine, but its performance was not fully satisfactory. Later prototypes and the production variant were powered by a Russian Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan rated at 17,857lb (79.43kN) dry and 27,557lb st (122.58kN) with afterburning. The same powerplant is also being used by the PLAAF's Su-27 and Su-30 fighters. The AL-31FN model used by the J-10 has been specially modified to fit the aircrafts fuselage. Lyulka-Saturn delivered 54 AL-31F turbofan engines to China between 2002 and 2004 for the initial batch of the J-10.

In July 2005, China ordered an additional 100 AL-31FN engines for more J-10 productions. Some reports suggested that these could be the improved model with increased thrust and possibly a fully variable, all-aspect thrust vector control (TVC) nozzle. Lyulka-Saturn demonstrated a TVC-equipped AL-31FN during the 2002 Zhuhai Air Show. The TVC capability would further enhance the aircraft's manoeuvrability.

Shenyang-based AVIC1 Aviation Engine Institute has been developing the indigenous WS-10A turbofan engine, which is also known as Taihang in its commercial name. Reportedly based on some AL-31F technologies, the engine is rated at 73.5kN dry and 110kN with afterburning.

The WS-10A development was completed in December 2005 and the engines may be ready for batch production soon. It was reported that the later variants of the J-10 and J-11 fighters will be powered by the WS-10A.

Specifications
HISTORY

First flight: 22 March 1998

Initial operational capability: 2003

Operator: PLA Air Force 

Variants: J-10 (prototype)
J-10A (single-seat fighter)
J-10B (two-seat fighter-trainer)

CREW
J-10A: One
J-10B: Two

DESIGN
Role: Air-superiority, ground attack
Manufacturer: Chengdu Aircraft Company 

DIMENSIONS
Length: 15.50m
Wingspan: 9.70m

WEIGHTS
Empty: 8,300kg
Typical Air-to-Air Combat: 13,200kg

PERFORMANCE
Max level speed: Mach 1.2 (sea-level) or Mach 2.2 (high altitude)
G limit: +9/-3g

AVIONICS
Fire-control radar: Type 1473 (?) pulse-Doppler radar, ~100km detecting range, tracking 10 targets and attacking 2 of them simultaneously
Other: A glass cockpit with four multifunctional displays (MFD), head-up display (HUD), GPS/INS navigations, air data computer, ARW9101 radar warning receiver (RWR), Type 634 digital quadruplex fly-by-wire (FBW) system, and digital fuel management system

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## hataf

houshanghai said:


> http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMjIyNzg5MTA4/v.swf
> J10 fire missiles.



after watching this video . . . . . . i am in love with J-10 

Can any one bring 2014 tomorrow . . . . please

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## Tehmasib

Some versions of the redesigned J-10s will take off in 2009, however the official flight date for the Pakistani FC-20s is 2015, but in actuality the Pakistanis are way ahead on the schedule and working beyond the J-10 redesigns. The PAF is looking beyond the JF-17 thunders and the J-10s. The design for the next generation of Pakistani aircraft has already begun. The Chinese J-10s are ready for export now. The redesign and upgrade of the FC-20s will take about five more years


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## abaseen99

1,000 or so 4th generation fighters. In 2010 the PLA Air Force and PLA Naval Air Forces have about 500 4th and 3+ generation fighters and fighter bombers, with about 200 having been imported from Russia. Current production of Chengdu J-10, Shenyang J-11B and Xian JH-7A combat aircraft is estimated at about 50-to-60 per year. The key variable for future fighter production will be whether the PLA can master indigenous turbofan engines, and it may be on the cusp of putting into production the FWS-10 Taihang for the J-11B and J-10, and the WS-13 for the FC-1. Thanks to help from Britian&#8217;s Rolls Royce the Xian Aircraft Co. has been producing improved Spey turbofans for the JH-7A strike-fighter since 2002. Russian sources are confident that China will continue to purchase their engines as they make their own,[6] which increases the probability of higher fighter production rates through this decade. Both the J-10 and J-11B will soon introduce new Chinese-designed electronically scanned array (AESA) radar putting them into the 4+ generation category. These could be aided by a mix of 20-30 large KJ-2000 and smaller KJ-200 AWACs radar aircraft. 





4+ Gen J-10B?: Photographed recently at the Chengdu Aircraft Co. factory, a J-10B appeared in PLA Air Force service grey, suggesting it may be intended for a PLAAF unit. Source: Chinese Internet


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## Manticore

http://dc207.*******.com/img/-UHSQi1d/0.146773294850725/27_152464_c1a6cfc2ef771f7.jpg


http://dc281.*******.com/img/9XWXhLfl/0.18263982562800107/j10b_PAF.jpg



this will become a reality in the coming years


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## MastanKhan

!!!!! the J-10 that China will give it to Pak with ToT.. so is it confirmed by an official source...or is it just a rumor??[/QUOTE]



Hi,

Why is this stupidity starting all over----again on this board---and the following posts as well---.

Can you kids read up on the posts on this board and try to keep up with the standard of the material posted. Thankyou.

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## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> !!!!! the J-10 that China will give it to Pak with ToT.. so is it confirmed by an official source...or is it just a rumor??





Hi,

Why is this stupidity starting all over----again on this board---and the following posts as well---.

Can you kids read up on the posts on this board and try to keep up with the standard of the material posted. Thankyou.[/QUOTE]
Totally Agreed, I mean some fresh people dont care to go through previous posts and will ask the same old things again and again. Yeah and there is a seprate thread for multimedia, I think the admins should deal with this issue approperiately. I had visited this thread about 10 times before your post but honestly there was nothing in content that would spark my interest


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## Indestructible

abaseen99 said:


> 4+ Gen J-10B?: Photographed recently at the Chengdu Aircraft Co. factory, a J-10B appeared in PLA Air Force service grey, suggesting it may be intended for a PLAAF unit. Source: Chinese Internet



Could you post a higher res photo? I smell something fishy 



ANTIBODY said:


> http://dc207.*******.com/img/-UHSQi1d/0.146773294850725/27_152464_c1a6cfc2ef771f7.jpg
> 
> this will become a reality in the coming years



An excellent picture. The plane looks more mightier in PAF color scheme


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## Indian-Devil

Indestructible said:


> Could you post a higher res photo? I smell something fishy
> 
> 
> 
> An excellent picture. The plane looks more mightier in PAF color scheme



Does a color scheme make a fighter jet more mighter? It may look beautiful or very own, nothing more than that.


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## TOPGUN

Indian-Devil said:


> Does a color scheme make a fighter jet more mighter? It may look beautiful or very own, nothing more than that.



True.... but when you get your new fighters.. wouldn't you want to see them in your iaf color scheme.. same here my friend all he was saying was that he would like to them in our scheme since we will be getting these aircrafts and i must i do like my Paf's color scheme good day .

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## IamINDIA

dose j-10 have aesa radar alrady or is it suposed to be a future upgrade/addition.


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## Indestructible

Indian-Devil said:


> Does a color scheme make a fighter jet more mighter? It may look beautiful or very own, nothing more than that.



Ever heard of metaphoric linguistic terms? I just use one in my post. Might look into it.


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## Manticore

Indian-Devil said:


> Does a color scheme make a fighter jet more mighter? It may look beautiful or very own, nothing more than that.





ANTIBODY said:


> http://dc207.*******.com/img/-UHSQi1d/0.146773294850725/27_152464_c1a6cfc2ef771f7.jpg
> 
> 
> http://dc281.*******.com/img/9XWXhLfl/0.18263982562800107/j10b_PAF.jpg


a darker colour scheme looks more dominating than yellow/light grey

plz dont waste anymore posts on such a useless issue

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## siegecrossbow

ANTIBODY said:


> a darker colour scheme looks more dominating than yellow/light grey
> 
> plz dont waste anymore posts on such a useless issue



Yellow is the color of the primer on the aircraft before paint is applied. No "finished" Chinese fighters have yellow paint jobs.


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## marcos98

*Brand new J-10 costs US$27 million*


Jane&#8217;s reported that Chinese officials quoted US$27 million for a J-10 fighter to Yemeni officials. A JF-17 costs $15 million.

read at:
Janes Def Weekly v47 iss51 22nd Dec10


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## Manticore

marcos98 said:


> *Brand new J-10 costs US$27 million*
> 
> 
> Jane&#8217;s reported that Chinese officials quoted US$27 million for a J-10 fighter to Yemeni officials. A JF-17 costs $15 million.
> 
> read at:
> Janes Def Weekly v47 iss51 22nd Dec10



US$25 million was circulating here a month back-- for paf


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## rockstarIN

marcos98 said:


> *Brand new J-10 costs US$27 million*
> 
> 
> Janes reported that Chinese officials quoted US$27 million for a J-10 fighter to Yemeni officials. A JF-17 costs $15 million.
> 
> read at:
> Janes Def Weekly v47 iss51 22nd Dec10



US$27 includes weapon package(SD-10)?


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## S10

rockstar said:


> US$27 includes weapon package(SD-10)?


I think it's just the plane itself, weapons extra. 27M for J-10 is quite a cheap price, indicating Yemen was aiming for lower end configuration. Not surprising considering Yemen is possibly the poorest of the Arab states.


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## fatman17

rockstar said:


> US$27 includes weapon package(SD-10)?



this is just for the a/c
weapons and ground equipment is extra


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## fatman17

ANTIBODY said:


> US$25 million was circulating here a month back-- for paf



whats a few millions between friends

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## monitor

fatman17 said:


> this is just for the a/c
> weapons and ground equipment is extra



Then it will cost 37 to 38 million for yemen if we consider pakistans fc-20 contract i think .


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## Mani2020

monitor said:


> Then it will cost 37 to 38 million for yemen if we consider pakistans fc-20 contract i think .



Don't know about how much will it cost to Yemen but when the J-10 came to scene the price quoted by sources was 40 million per piece


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## chengdusudise

12.25 ,2010 , chengdu , CAC huangtianba aerodrome














---------- Post added at 03:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:35 PM ----------







---------- Post added at 03:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:36 PM ----------

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## monitor

are those above pictures are j-xx or any modified j-10 ?


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## chengdusudise

monitor said:


> are those above pictures are j-xx or any modified j-10 ?


 jXX, i,e. J-20


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## Indian-Devil

Can someone pls post more clear pics of J-xx.


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## houshanghai

YouTube - PLAAF 81 Aerobatic Team Air Show China 2010ï¼music+orignal sound)
















J10s were kissing in the sky

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## siegecrossbow

Guys keep J-20 material out of this thread please. There are already 10 different threads on the subject.

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## Indestructible

I recently watched a movie called "Tomorrow when the war began". It is an Australian movie which shows Asians invading Australia. During the war a group of teenage friends who are left alone in their town fight for their lives. A very good movie overall.

In one scene, they have shown an animated dogfight which looks very realistic. In the cinema, I couldn't identify the planes. I downloaded the movie to check. To my amazement the planes were Boeing F-18 and *Chengdu J-10*. I am pretty sure about the J-10. On Wikipedia it said that the plane was JF-17! I made the correction on the page. In the dogfight, J-10 blows up a F18 using a missile. I thought it'd be interesting to share it here. So I cut that part of the video and uploaded on YouTube for you guys to see. Enjoy!

YouTube - F18 Shot By J10 [Extract From Tomorrow When The War Began]

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## applesauce

Indestructible said:


> I recently watched a movie called "Tomorrow when the war began". It is an Australian movie which shows Asians invading Australia. During the war a group of teenage friends who are left alone in their town fight for their lives. A very good movie overall.
> 
> In one scene, they have shown an animated dogfight which looks very realistic. In the cinema, I couldn't identify the planes. I downloaded the movie to check. To my amazement the planes were Boeing F-18 and *Chengdu J-10*. I am pretty sure about the J-10. On Wikipedia it said that the plane was JF-17! I made the correction on the page. In the dogfight, J-10 blows up a F18 using a missile. I thought it'd be interesting to share it here. So I cut that part of the video and uploaded on YouTube for you guys to see. Enjoy!
> 
> YouTube - F18 Shot By J10 [Extract From Tomorrow When The War Began]



interesting i suppose, but the book the movie is based on, gives no indications of who the hostile power invading Australia is, in fact multiple clues given leads one to conclude that no nation on earth meets the criteria of the invader in the book


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## Indestructible

Exactly! And I have not assumed that it was China. I have read the book and it does give hints that they might be Asians. Lets not just get into this discussion. Just watch the animation and admire its reality.


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## SBD-3

Indestructible said:


> Exactly! And I have not assumed that it was China. I have read the book and it does give hints that they might be Asians. Lets not just get into this discussion. Just watch the animation and admire its reality.


Well, Ausairpower thinks China to be the biggest threat to Australia, if you look at all of their analysis, the major threats are China, Malaysia, Indonesia and all the russian equipment operators, so its pretty logical that they would have portrayed China invading them 
Air Power Australia - Home Page


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## Fieldmarshal

N China is one of the biggest if not the biggest investor in aus, so much so that mandarin is being taught as a second language in schools.

While in reality the aus foreign policy looks at china as the enemy.


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## hboGYT

I saw this movie in the cinema. The missile used to kill the F-18 looked like PL-12. Though using gun then missiles seems stupid.


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## siegecrossbow

Indestructible said:


> I recently watched a movie called "Tomorrow when the war began". It is an Australian movie which shows Asians invading Australia. During the war a group of teenage friends who are left alone in their town fight for their lives. A very good movie overall.
> 
> In one scene, they have shown an animated dogfight which looks very realistic. In the cinema, I couldn't identify the planes. I downloaded the movie to check. To my amazement the planes were Boeing F-18 and *Chengdu J-10*. I am pretty sure about the J-10. On Wikipedia it said that the plane was JF-17! I made the correction on the page. In the dogfight, J-10 blows up a F18 using a missile. I thought it'd be interesting to share it here. So I cut that part of the video and uploaded on YouTube for you guys to see. Enjoy!
> 
> YouTube - F18 Shot By J10 [Extract From Tomorrow When The War Began]



Still might be Indonesia though. Apparently Indonesia has shown interest in the J-10 and given how China provided Su-30 trainings in the past a deal could certainly fall through.


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## xuwei

delete........


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## monitor

In early 2009 images of the first prototype of the advanced J-10B variant emerged on a number of Chinese websites.

The design has a number of prominent changes which will improve performance and capabilities.

The radome geometry has been altered with a new tilted bulkhead which will reduce radar bay RCS. Aft of the radome is mounted a new electro-optical sensor turret, most likely an Infra-Red Search / Track (IRST) set. The dark colour could be a painted dummy optical dome, or a Germanium longwave dome.

The most important design change is the completely revised higher massflow inlet design. The new inlet combines two design features observed in earlier US designs, a general arrangement similar to the F-8U3 Crusader III prototype, and a diverterless inlet bulge design similar to the F-16 demonstrator used to prove the inlet design for the X-35 JSF demonstrators. The inlet to fuselage join will significantly reduce the radar signature of the forward fuselage in the upper bands.

Other interesting changes include an extended antenna fairing on the vertical fin, and large inboard pylons - or instrumentation pods - with what appear to be dielectric radomes over the front and aft of the pylon. The prototype carries inert PL-8 Python 3 rounds.

To date no performance figures have been disclosed. What is clear is that this design has been engineered to be fitted with a more powerful engine and radar than the J-10A.


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## SBD-3

monitor said:


> In early 2009 images of the first prototype of the advanced J-10B variant emerged on a number of Chinese websites.
> 
> The design has a number of prominent changes which will improve performance and capabilities.
> 
> The radome geometry has been altered with a new tilted bulkhead which will reduce radar bay RCS. Aft of the radome is mounted a new electro-optical sensor turret, most likely an Infra-Red Search / Track (IRST) set. The dark colour could be a painted dummy optical dome, or a Germanium longwave dome.
> 
> The most important design change is the completely revised higher massflow inlet design. The new inlet combines two design features observed in earlier US designs, a general arrangement similar to the F-8U3 Crusader III prototype, and a diverterless inlet bulge design similar to the F-16 demonstrator used to prove the inlet design for the X-35 JSF demonstrators. The inlet to fuselage join will significantly reduce the radar signature of the forward fuselage in the upper bands.
> 
> Other interesting changes include an extended antenna fairing on the vertical fin, and large inboard pylons - or instrumentation pods - with what appear to be dielectric radomes over the front and aft of the pylon. The prototype carries inert PL-8 Python 3 rounds.
> 
> To date no performance figures have been disclosed. What is clear is that this design has been engineered to be fitted with a more powerful engine and radar than the J-10A.



please refrain from posting information which has already been posted here many times before, let this thread be a debate rather than a cyclic thread or a photoalbum


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## rolandzhangt

&#21457;&#36825;&#20010;&#24086;&#23376;&#26159;&#20026;&#20102;&#25226;&#20013;&#22269;&#30340;4&#20195;&#26426;&#30340;&#22270;&#29255;&#21457;&#19978;&#26469;


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## rolandzhangt

&#21457;&#36825;&#20010;&#24086;&#23376;&#26159;&#20026;&#20102;&#25226;&#20013;&#22269;&#30340;4&#20195;&#26426;&#30340;&#22270;&#29255;&#21457;&#19978;&#26469;
Pls webmaster forgive me!

---------- Post added at 09:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 PM ----------

&#21457;&#36825;&#20010;&#24086;&#23376;&#26159;&#20026;&#20102;&#25226;&#20013;&#22269;&#30340;4&#20195;&#26426;&#30340;&#22270;&#29255;&#21457;&#19978;&#26469;
Pls webmaster forgive me!forgive me!

---------- Post added at 09:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 PM ----------

&#21457;&#36825;&#20010;&#24086;&#23376;&#26159;&#20026;&#20102;&#25226;&#20013;&#22269;&#30340;4&#20195;&#26426;&#30340;&#22270;&#29255;&#21457;&#19978;&#26469;
Pls webmaster forgive me!
A chinese friend

---------- Post added at 09:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 PM ----------

&#21457;&#36825;&#20010;&#24086;&#23376;&#26159;&#20026;&#20102;&#25226;&#20013;&#22269;&#30340;4&#20195;&#26426;&#30340;&#22270;&#29255;&#21457;&#19978;&#26469;
Pls webmaster forgive me!forgive me!

---------- Post added at 09:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 PM ----------

&#21457;&#36825;&#20010;&#24086;&#23376;&#26159;&#20026;&#20102;&#25226;&#20013;&#22269;&#30340;4&#20195;&#26426;&#30340;&#22270;&#29255;&#21457;&#19978;&#26469;
Pls webmaster forgive me!forgive!


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## SBD-3

claimed to be J-10B cockpit...this somewhat affirms my suspicions about J-10B being the testbed for J-20 Systems





















here is F-22s cockpit

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## fatman17

it is also widely believed that the J-10B is also the FC-20 to be in PAF service in about 3-5 years.


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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> it is also widely believed that the J-10B is also the FC-20 to be in PAF service in about 3-5 years.



in fact, some of the chinese friends have mentioned that J-10B is tailored for PAF specs, but lets see


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## xuwei

hasnain0099 said:


> in fact, some of the chinese friends have mentioned that J-10B is tailored for PAF specs, but lets see



I also agree.
Another important factors might be subsystem test for 5'th G.
Some insiders mentioned J10-21,a stealth characteristics fighter.I doubt whether it links to Pakistan demand?


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## muse

All this stealth this and that talk makes me very uneasy -- lets get the basics and then we can move on - lets concentrate on ground based, under water and satellite system that allow Pakistan to monitor air and space and under the sea in 2 or 3 thousand radius and then move on to these other so called stealth systems which don't mean anything without other systems such advanced radar and long range BVR missilery.


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## SBD-3

xuwei said:


> I also agree.
> Another important factors might be subsystem test for 5'th G.
> Some insiders mentioned J10-21,a stealth characteristics fighter.I doubt whether it links to Pakistan demand?


Yeah i also heard roumers about something called J-10 3 (or super 10) which is likely to be the pinacle of J-10 development. But the guy was referring towards PLAN not PAF to be the customer as PLAN wanted supercruise capable stealth fighters


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## SBD-3

muse said:


> All this stealth this and that talk makes me very uneasy -- lets get the basics and then we can move on - lets concentrate on ground based, under water and satellite system that allow Pakistan to monitor air and space and under the sea in 2 or 3 thousand radius and then move on to these other so called stealth systems which don't mean anything without other systems such advanced radar and long range BVR missilery.



we are not referring to stealth systems, but rather system integration and facility for smoother transition to 5th gen (if required). I also said it earlier that the first task for PAF is to get rid of 3rd gens that it is operating right now by completeing thunder induction in time. 
then for front liner, as PAF would have gained some ground, infrastructure and capabilities on aircraft manufacturing (thanks to JFT) then PAF can look for project FC-20. The successful completeion of FC-20 will not only help enhancing PAF' manufactuing capabilities but will also help it understanding and designing the advanced system for 5th gen. Only then, PAF can chalk out "what more than this" (a question about 5th gen)


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## farhan_9909

the cockpit looks like su 35 cockpit


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## Kompromat

hasnain0099 said:


> claimed to be J-10B cockpit...this somewhat affirms my suspicions about J-10B being the testbed for J-20 Systems
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> here is F-22s cockpit



Last picture is F22's cockpit.


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## xuwei

hasnain0099 said:


> Yeah i also heard roumers about something called J-10 3 (or super 10) which is likely to be the pinacle of J-10 development. But the guy was referring towards PLAN not PAF to be the customer as PLAN wanted supercruise capable stealth fighters



In my opinion:5'th G fighter is a offensive weapons,long combat radius and Large load are important for offensive strategy of PLA.This is limited of J10X.
That's why i guess J10-21 is Suitable for Pakistan.


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## SBD-3

xuwei said:


> In my opinion:5'th G fighter is a offensive weapons,long combat radius and Large load are important for offensive strategy of PLA.This is limited of J10X.
> That's why i guess J10-21 is Suitable for Pakistan.



but what you aren't incorporating is the mobility of Aircraft carriers of PLAN. a heavy class fighter like J-20 will not only be to bulky for plan but also occupy larger space on "space stapped" ACC. which makes me believe about the fact.However, you may be true, but at least i am not in a position to comment upon the idea as i havent come accross any such news or rumor

---------- Post added at 02:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:50 PM ----------




Black Blood said:


> Last picture is F22's cockpit.



last two pics are of F-22, i did mention it in my post


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## xuwei

hasnain0099 said:


> but what you aren't incorporating is the mobility of Aircraft carriers of PLAN. a heavy class fighter like J-20 will not only be to bulky for plan but also occupy larger space on "space stapped" ACC. which makes me believe about the fact.However, you may be true, but at least i am not in a position to comment upon the idea as i havent come accross any such news or rumor
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:50 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> last two pics are of F-22, i did mention it in my post




Maby shengyang(SAC,which developed J15) is developing anather Multi-purpose five generations of aircraft.If it's true,also it will be two-engines heavy fighters.


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## SBD-3

xuwei said:


> Maby shengyang(SAC) is developing anather Multi-purpose five generations of aircraft.If it's true,also it will be two-engines heavy fighters.



yeah this is what suspects me. But interestingly there has also been romurs about JH-7B stealth striker. If this idea is materialized, then i can expect a single engine fighter out of SAC. However, this is interesting to see


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## truthseeker2010

J-10B's cockpit looks more futuristic!


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## xuwei

hasnain0099 said:


> yeah this is what suspects me. But interestingly there has also been romurs about JH-7B stealth striker. If this idea is materialized, then i can expect a single engine fighter out of SAC. However, this is interesting to see




JH7B won't change much to JH7A,Engine increase pushed,Fuselage weight loss,Local stealth change shoule be reality.Because time and efficiency is more important.
China's leaders Like two legs to walk(which means double insurance).
J11--J10
J11BS--JH7A
J16--JH7B
J20--J10-21--JXX(Multi-purpose fighter)


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## SBD-3

xuwei said:


> JH7B won't change much to JH7A,Engine increase pushed,Fuselage weight loss,Local stealth change shoule be reality.Because time and efficiency is more important.
> China's leaders Like two legs to walk(which means double insurance).
> J11--J10
> J11BS--JH7A
> J16--JH7B
> J20--J10-21--JXX(Multi-purpose fighter)



but what makes me wonder that if the other one is J-10-21 then why SAC is assigned a design in which CAC already has expertise. I mean I am 99% sure that SAC design will be different from CAC i.e. J-10 structure. I suspect SU-47 type fighter because I read it somewhere that Sukhoi was actively looking for customers for SU-47 but perhaps not allowed by RuAF as the project was funded by them. I suspect SAC would have purchased the program from SuDB and would be modifying it now. But this is all my personal views, feel free to disagree


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## xuwei

hasnain0099 said:


> but what makes me wonder that if the other one is J-10-21 then why SAC is assigned a design in which CAC already has expertise. I mean I am 99% sure that SAC design will be different from CAC i.e. J-10 structure. I suspect SU-47 type fighter because I read it somewhere that Sukhoi was actively looking for customers for SU-47 but perhaps not allowed by RuAF as the project was funded by them. I suspect SAC would have purchased the program from SuDB and would be modifying it now. But this is all my personal views, feel free to disagree



J20(CAC leading,SAC assist) is Air superiority.
I belibve SAC's 5'th G fighter will be Conventional layout,super regula.
And one thing i can sure:China won't follow Russia.Needless to say Su47.


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## xuwei

hasnain0099 said:


> but what makes me wonder that if the other one is J-10-21 then why SAC is assigned a design in which CAC already has expertise. I mean I am 99% sure that SAC design will be different from CAC i.e. J-10 structure. I suspect SU-47 type fighter because I read it somewhere that Sukhoi was actively looking for customers for SU-47 but perhaps not allowed by RuAF as the project was funded by them. I suspect SAC would have purchased the program from SuDB and would be modifying it now. But this is all my personal views, feel free to disagree



You mean J10-21 is Former plunder wing?
I don't think so.

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## wangwei11607

---------- Post added at 11:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 AM ----------

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## wangwei11607



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## siegecrossbow

Looks like J-XX stole all of J-10's attention...

Any ways does anyone know whether PLAAF will induct J-10B or will it be an export variant, as some claim?


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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> Looks like J-XX stole all of J-10's attention...
> 
> Any ways does anyone know whether PLAAF will induct J-10B or will it be an export variant, as some claim?


more likely yes as the latest flight leaks did indicate PLAAF insignia on J-10B, an indication of its induction. btw someone (Chinese member) posted here that PLAAF will induct it in early 2011


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## xuwei

J10A and J10B will both inducted dozens per year.


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## SBD-3

xuwei said:


> J10A and J10B will both inducted dozens per year.



As per my information, J-10B will replace the standard model of future production for PLAAF and will be inducted, not J-10A. Once induction completes around 2018-2019, then in the second phase J-10As of PLAAF will be going through upgrade to J-10B


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## xuwei

hasnain0099 said:


> As per my information, J-10B will replace the standard model of future production for PLAAF and will be inducted, not J-10A. Once induction completes around 2018-2019, then in the second phase J-10As of PLAAF will be going through upgrade to J-10B



There is some pneumatic Structure layout difference between J10A and J10B,so it can't say update to J10B level.and PLA has lots of J7s/J8s to replace,so upgrate J10a to J10B is Very low cost-effectiveness ratio.You should know the avionics of j10A is in high standard now.
And It's much more expensive for J10B,which limit purchase quantity in time of peace.

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## xuwei

Yes,I heard somebody said:All test is OK,and J10B will be induct in2011.
Although the best Air combat ability fighter is J10B in China,There are two points limit it:
1:engine,WS10A still have time to improve stability,and Increase thrust.PLA won't equipt lots unless engine will be OK.
2:Single fighter has a Inherent disadvantages,short Combat radius and low load.In defensive,It's perfect.But the large area of South China sea and vast territory need long Combat radius and high load heavy fighter.


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## xuwei



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## siegecrossbow

xuwei said:


>



First picture, I believe, of the J-10b carrying missiles. Look like the plane is about to enter operation soon.


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## Kompromat

hasnain0099 said:


> yeah this is what suspects me. But interestingly there has also been romurs about JH-7B stealth striker. If this idea is materialized, then i can expect a single engine fighter out of SAC. However, this is interesting to see



This is a UCAV not a fighter.


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## F86 Saber

xuwei said:


>



Missiles are photo shopped, the left one seems to be on the wing tip and seems to be tilted downwards while the right one is towards the middle.


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## PakShaheen79

So, any confirmation about radar of J-10B/FC-20? want to know, if it would be an AESA.


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## SBD-3

Black Blood said:


> This is a UCAV not a fighter.



A UCAV with canopy and possible cockpit?....

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## Kompromat

hasnain0099 said:


> A UCAV with canopy and possible cockpit?....



Watch closely its not a canopy. 

Its similar to Dark Sword UCAV.


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## SBD-3

Black Blood said:


> Watch closely its not a canopy.







what is it then????


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## Kompromat

hasnain0099 said:


> what is it then????



Two different UCAV designs.


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## SBD-3

Black Blood said:


> Two different UCAV designs.


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## Kompromat

hasnain0099 said:


>



Hasnain i am not having a go at you neither i want to stress too much on this , but what you are pointing out to is canards and a supposed cockpit. 

I will stick to my assessment of that because that what you point out to is not actually a cockpit but probably its a conformal electronics housing tube which meets the aerodynamic requirements by having a bubble canopy outlook.


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## xuwei

PakShaheen79 said:


> So, any confirmation about radar of J-10B/FC-20? want to know, if it would be an AESA.



radar would be AESA.

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## farhan_9909

xuwei said:


> radar would be AESA.



do you have anylink

which confirms that AESA in china is in development?


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## xuwei

farhan_9909 said:


> do you have anylink
> 
> which confirms that AESA in china is in development?



some insiders said.
And 10B is also a project which test for 5th'G subsystem.
So I suppose AESA is a very natural thing.


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## Stealth

any authentic specs of this aircraft available ?


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## Kompromat

Stealth said:


> any authentic specs of this aircraft available ?



Even J-10B has not officially been announced so no specs available.

Look at this.

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## houshanghai

j10b is 100&#37; AESA radar


sopc_dsp (chinese defence forum&#8216;s boss)





Google Translate

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## Dazzler

j-10b has two primary roles, a testbed of avionics and some sub systems for the j-20 as well as to become the fc-20 for PAF. It most likely has an AESA as the nose design suggests (NRIET made in 2008). Cant wait to see it in PAF

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## siegecrossbow

Stealth said:


> any authentic specs of this aircraft available ?



There is no advantage to a canted nose if AESA isn't used.


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## xuwei

nabil_05 said:


> j-10b has two primary roles, a testbed of avionics and some sub systems for the j-20 as well as to become the fc-20 for PAF. It most likely has an AESA as the nose design suggests (NRIET made in 2008). Cant wait to see it in PAF



some insider posted:There would be no J20 without J10B.


ºÚË¿½ãÇÀ·çÍ·£¬¹÷×ÓB¸çÔõÃ´°ì£¿[Page:1] - ¿Õ¾ü°æ - ¡º ³¬¼¶´ó±¾ÓªÂÛÌ³ ¡» ³¬È»ÎïÍâ ÓÐÈÝÄË´ó - Super Military Base
&#27809;&#26377;&#26829;&#23376;B&#23601;&#27809;&#26377;&#26032;&#19997;&#24102;&#65292;&#27809;&#26377;&#26829;&#23376;B&#23601;&#27809;&#26377;&#26032;&#19997;&#24102;~
&#36825;&#20010;&#35201;&#29992;&#37027;&#20010;&#27468;&#26354;&#30340;&#35843;&#23376;&#21809;&#20986;&#26469;

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## fatman17

nabil_05 said:


> j-10b has two primary roles, a testbed of avionics and some sub systems for the j-20 as well as to become the fc-20 for PAF. It most likely has an AESA as the nose design suggests (NRIET made in 2008). Cant wait to see it in PAF



2015 is not too far

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## Mani2020

fatman17 said:


> 2015 is not too far



neither is 2020


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## PakShaheen79

What about formal agreement with China for supply of FC-20?? I believe that it is yet to be signed.

Please correct me if i am wrong.


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## Mani2020

PakShaheen79 said:


> What about formal agreement with China for supply of FC-20?? I believe that it is yet to be signed.
> 
> Please correct me if i am wrong.



yeah atleast apparently who knows the inside story as most Sino-Pak deals are made under the cover and you don't know what is coming util it leaks out .there are lot of examples from the past supporting my claim.


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## siegecrossbow

xuwei said:


> some insider posted:There would be no J20 without J10B.
> 
> 
> ºÚË¿½ãÇÀ·çÍ·£¬¹÷×ÓB¸çÔõÃ´°ì£¿[Page:1] - ¿Õ¾ü°æ - ¡º ³¬¼¶´ó±¾ÓªÂÛÌ³ ¡» ³¬È»ÎïÍâ ÓÐÈÝÄË´ó - Super Military Base
> &#27809;&#26377;&#26829;&#23376;B&#23601;&#27809;&#26377;&#26032;&#19997;&#24102;&#65292;&#27809;&#26377;&#26829;&#23376;B&#23601;&#27809;&#26377;&#26032;&#19997;&#24102;~
> &#36825;&#20010;&#35201;&#29992;&#37027;&#20010;&#27468;&#26354;&#30340;&#35843;&#23376;&#21809;&#20986;&#26469;



Hahahaha funny song.

It is sad to see the J-10 threads getting neglected due to the J-20 though. Another thing that ticks me off is how people claim that no more J-10s will be made... They have no concept of cost/performance ratios.


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## Dazzler

xuwei said:


> some insider posted:There would be no J20 without J10B.
> 
> 
> ºÚË¿½ãÇÀ·çÍ·£¬¹÷×ÓB¸çÔõÃ´°ì£¿[Page:1] - ¿Õ¾ü°æ - ¡º ³¬¼¶´ó±¾ÓªÂÛÌ³ ¡» ³¬È»ÎïÍâ ÓÐÈÝÄË´ó - Super Military Base
> &#27809;&#26377;&#26829;&#23376;B&#23601;&#27809;&#26377;&#26032;&#19997;&#24102;&#65292;&#27809;&#26377;&#26829;&#23376;B&#23601;&#27809;&#26377;&#26032;&#19997;&#24102;~
> &#36825;&#20010;&#35201;&#29992;&#37027;&#20010;&#27468;&#26354;&#30340;&#35843;&#23376;&#21809;&#20986;&#26469;



Thanks for confirmation bro..

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## Silk

I think it is obvious that there are technologies that go from the one to the other. The engineers, projectmanagers and others are located in the same area and the same factories. But I think it is a blessing for the smallest (JF17) to be allowed to get better and better technologies. Only the engine is the big different thing. RD93 versus AL31F or derivative versus unknown... You can see the same HUD as J11b (3d holgr.) .

I think they have two prototypes to speed up as much as possible. One with AL31 and one witn Chinese engines. And knowing that we can say that they must be sure that their versions work. No one is going to risk such prototype.

I think that 2014/2015 will be very important year for Pakistan. If India moves faster to stealth technology or huge quantative advantage (MRCA/SU30) then I expect Pakistan might opt for something near this plane. Unless the JF17 stealth is going to be seriously good. But knowing the strategy of Pakistan we will get surprised. We saw Babur... We saw Ra'ad... We will see something like predator. And we maybe see something more stealthy then what we have. The Indians expect overwhelming power but if a smaller Pakistan can sneak up their high tech then the overwhelming power is eroded, atleast in their minds.


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## Dazzler

J-10B, (fc-20) is rumored to be equipped with first Chinese EMCON (Emmission Control) technology as is the case with j-20. Apart of f-22 and f-35, Super Hornet is another example. Satcom is already there in j-10A so this is good news indeed.

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## Silk

I am still a bit surprised we do not use satcom in JF17. Ok, we do not have it. We have hardly strategic depth... But still, it could be far more difficult to counter and you could go for deep strike.

The satcom on the J10/FC20 is that white dis behind the cockpit. I think they have a different system for J20. Looking forward to the testflight tomorrow!


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## Dazzler

JFT does have SATCOM integrated my friend . In the mean time, enjoy the fc-20 a.k.a J 10 b prototype 03...

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b146/KhanSaeed/PLAAFJ-10B03-1.jpg

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## Conqueror

nabil_05 said:


> JFT does have *SATCOM *integrated my friend . In the mean time, enjoy the fc-20 a.k.a J 10 b prototype 03...
> 
> http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b146/KhanSaeed/PLAAFJ-10B03-1.jpg



Sir, we need to know some more about it..


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## Kompromat

nabil_05 said:


> JFT does have SATCOM integrated my friend . In the mean time, enjoy the fc-20 a.k.a J 10 b prototype 03...
> 
> http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b146/KhanSaeed/PLAAFJ-10B03-1.jpg

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## Indestructible

Why isn't any video of J-10B out yet? It is very strange. J-XX's video is out so fast. Doesn't it seem weird? Some people on the net have start believing that this plane is a hoax.


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## hboGYT

I have a theory, that FC-20 is in fact the J-20. 
Superficially, they all have the number 20 in their designations, which might indicate some kind of connection.

Logically, assuming the rumours that J-10B is used as a testbed for many 5th gen. technologies is true, then J-10B technology is J-XX technology. Would China export J-10B when she is not ready to export J-XX? Probably not. However, when she is ready to export J-XX, would Pakistan still want J-10B? Probably not. 

I think J-10B is not going to see service in any air force.


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## SBD-3

hboGYT said:


> I have a theory, that FC-20 is in fact the J-20.
> Superficially, they all have the number 20 in their designations, which might indicate some kind of connection.
> 
> Logically, assuming the rumours that J-10B is used as a testbed for many 5th gen. technologies is true, then J-10B technology is J-XX technology. Would China export J-10B when she is not ready to export J-XX? Probably not. However, when she is ready to export J-XX, would Pakistan still want J-10B? Probably not.
> 
> I think J-10B is not going to see service in any air force.



I disagree, J-10B will see active service because
1- it offers a lot more over standard J-10 model so even PLAAF will be eagerly eyeing this as standard J-10 variant 
2- The details of PAF deal indentified J-10 and even ACM said that PAF has no contribution towards 5th Gen which implies that PAF has not been eyeing J-20.


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## shanixee

hasnain0099 said:


> I disagree, J-10B will see active service because
> 1- it offers a lot more over standard J-10 model so even PLAAF will be eagerly eyeing this as standard J-10 variant
> 2- The details of PAF deal indentified J-10 and even ACM said that PAF has no contribution towards 5th Gen which implies that PAF has not been eyeing J-20.



I agree with the post a above that J20 Might be FC20 at the end..Becuase FC20 contract was sighned in 2007 when airforce reduced number of F16.. and J10 Contract was sign in Nov 2009...since few years we are hearing abt J10 and FC20 being inducted...made many ppl confuse if we are getting J10...and no confirmed news in available where PAF has catagorically stated that pakistan has no contribution in 5th gen fighter....however even if we dont hve any contribution in RND that does not mean we cannot get it...
Regards


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## TaimiKhan

PAF would be going for the single engine version of whatever Chinese are gonna produce in the 5th Gen category. This current J-20 is not what PAF wants, its a huge aircraft and by the design and size it seems, its more likely to be for bombing missions compared to air superiority mission. It will do air to air combat, but the size means its more inclined towards carrying heavy payloads at large distances. 

FC-20 is PAF designation for J-10B, not Chinese designation, thus it can't be confused with J-20, which is Chinese designation for their fighter. 

FC-20s are J-10Bs for PAF and would be inducted hopefully as planned, while PAF would be and is looking at a single engine 5th Gen fighter from the Chinese. 

And yeah as for the videos, had Chinese officials not wanted to leak out the J-20 pics, it would not have happened, but by letting to leak out or let people take pics of the J-20 means they are trying to send a message, that is why it is being allowed so openly, and that is why we don't see in flight videos of J-10B as its not a game changer or for sending any message to anyone, but a 5th gen aircraft is a message for someone or for some around the world.

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## shanixee

TaimiKhan said:


> PAF would be going for the single engine version of whatever Chinese are gonna produce in the 5th Gen category. This current J-20 is not what PAF wants, its a huge aircraft and by the design and size it seems, its more likely to be for bombing missions compared to air superiority mission. It will do air to air combat, but the size means its more inclined towards carrying heavy payloads at large distances.
> 
> FC-20 is PAF designation for J-10B, not Chinese designation, thus it can't be confused with J-20, which is Chinese designation for their fighter.
> 
> FC-20s are J-10Bs for PAF and would be inducted hopefully as planned, while PAF would be and is looking at a single engine 5th Gen fighter from the Chinese.
> 
> And yeah as for the videos, had Chinese officials not wanted to leak out the J-20 pics, it would not have happened, but by letting to leak out or let people take pics of the J-20 means they are trying to send a message, that is why it is being allowed so openly, and that is why we don't see in flight videos of J-10B as its not a game changer or for sending any message to anyone, but a 5th gen aircraft is a message for someone or for some around the world.



With all due respect sir i dont think that ur the policy maker of Pakistan Armed forces who will decide if pakistan will Hve 1 engine or 2 engine aircraft...ppl normally refer to so called doctrine in which PAF stated that it will hve 1 engine aircraft...how ever since 1965 PAF operated atleast 1 aircraft having 2 engine e.g F6 and A5...anyways i dont agree that Pakistan doctrine of not having 2 engine aircraft bacause main contents does not come out..... J10 would hve been given name of FC10 rather then FC20...anyways you might be right i respect your comments...regards


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## Dazzler

Conqueror said:


> Sir, we need to know some more about it..



White dish slightly smaller than that of j-10, behind the comm antenna, mulyi purpose, jam resistant, cant say more than this buddy....::

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## Dazzler

due to bad net connection, had it posted thrice...


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## Dazzler

Conqueror said:


> Sir, we need to know some more about it..



White dish slightly smaller than that of j-10, behind the comm antenna, multi purpose, jam resistant, cant say more than this buddy.... ::


jftsatcom.jpg picture by nexeltroop - Photobucket


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## Conqueror

nabil_05 said:


> White dish slightly smaller than that of j-10, behind the comm antenna, multi purpose, jam resistant, cant say more than this buddy.... ::
> 
> 
> jftsatcom.jpg picture by nexeltroop - Photobucket



Looks like a small white square but hope it would be big in functionality. Good to know it is there


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## mjnaushad




----------



## xuwei

TaimiKhan said:


> PAF would be going for the single engine version of whatever Chinese are gonna produce in the 5th Gen category. *This current J-20 is not what PAF wants, its a huge aircraft *and by the design and size it seems, its more likely to be for bombing missions compared to air superiority mission. It will do air to air combat, but *the size means its more inclined towards carrying heavy payloads at large distances. *
> 
> FC-20 is PAF designation for J-10B, not Chinese designation, thus it can't be confused with J-20, which is Chinese designation for their fighter.
> 
> FC-20s are J-10Bs for PAF and would be inducted hopefully as planned, while PAF would be and is looking at a single engine 5th Gen fighter from the Chinese.
> 
> And yeah as for the videos, had Chinese officials not wanted to leak out the J-20 pics, it would not have happened, but by letting to leak out or let people take pics of the J-20 means they are trying to send a message, that is why it is being allowed so openly, and that is why we don't see in flight videos of J-10B as its not a game changer or for sending any message to anyone, but a 5th gen aircraft is a message for someone or for some around the world.




Agree!
"This current J-20 is not what PAF wants."

PAF won't need so heavy payloads at so large distances.

I belive No matter what cost China would develope an export 5'th G fighter,even no other partner investments.
It's Strategic thinking.


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## TaimiKhan

shanixee said:


> With all due respect sir i dont think that ur the policy maker of Pakistan Armed forces who will decide if pakistan will Hve 1 engine or 2 engine aircraft...ppl normally refer to so called doctrine in which PAF stated that it will hve 1 engine aircraft...how ever since 1965 PAF operated atleast 1 aircraft having 2 engine e.g F6 and A5...anyways i dont agree that Pakistan doctrine of not having 2 engine aircraft bacause main contents does not come out..... J10 would hve been given name of FC10 rather then FC20...anyways you might be right i respect your comments...regards



Yes Sir, thanks for letting me know that i am not the policy maker of PAF, which by the way i am not also. 

Also, do remember, the 2-engine fighter aircraft that we had been operating or operated, were out of necessity, not due to our desire for 2-engine fighters. 

I hope i don't have to repeat the pros and cons of double engine fighters with respect to the size and budget of PAF. 

By the way, i do live among PAF people, so i do have a little bit of insight into the mindset of what PAF would ideally want and a 2-engine fighter is not their first priority.


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## SBD-3

TaimiKhan said:


> Yes Sir, thanks for letting me know that i am not the policy maker of PAF, which by the way i am not also.
> 
> Also, do remember, the 2-engine fighter aircraft that we had been operating or operated, were out of necessity, not due to our desire for 2-engine fighters.
> 
> I hope i don't have to repeat the pros and cons of double engine fighters with respect to the size and budget of PAF.
> 
> By the way, i do live among PAF people, so i do have a little bit of insight into the mindset of what PAF would ideally want and a 2-engine fighter is not their first priority.


You know what, his thinking is the trickle down effect of 5th gen joint development thread


----------



## monitor

xuwei said:


> Agree!
> "This current J-20 is not what PAF wants."
> 
> PAF won't need so heavy payloads at so large distances.
> 
> I belive No matter what cost China would develope an export 5'th G fighter,even no other partner investments.
> It's Strategic thinking.



J-20 is not paf wanted and the demand by any developing country to have a fifth generation fighter is not a j-20 class fighter. though its true that china does not need any parter but yet considering the ever lasting trust and partnership between china and pakistan if pakistan can pursue china to develop a fifth generation fighter together for developing country's same ways as jf-17 will be most judicious decision for paf which will support paf at least for 40 years .

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## SBD-3

monitor said:


> J-20 is not paf wanted and the demand by any developing country to have a fifth generation fighter is not a j-20 class fighter. though its true that china does not need any parter but yet considering the ever lasting trust and partnership between china and pakistan if pakistan can pursue china to develop a fifth generation fighter together for developing country's same ways as jf-17 will be most judicious decision for paf which will support paf at least for 40 years .



I dont know why are we talking about Joint development at the moment?...Its just not possible at this stage, PAF has a busy schedule ahead upto 2020 and honestly I see long procurement of 4.5th gen to match the numbers game before consideration of a 5th Gen. And it will likely be off the shelf as induction will be in limited numbers. I mean Chinese single engine 5th gen will be ready before PAF ends FC-20 Program which eliminates the chances of a JV.


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## monitor

hasnain0099 said:


> I dont know why are we talking about Joint development at the moment?...Its just not possible at this stage, PAF has a busy schedule ahead upto 2020 and honestly I see long procurement of 4.5th gen to match the numbers game before consideration of a 5th Gen. And it will likely be off the shelf as induction will be in limited numbers. I mean Chinese single engine 5th gen will be ready before PAF ends FC-20 Program which eliminates the chances of a JV.



What we are is not start building 5th generation in pakistan right now but to join with chinese in R&D so that paf can gain valuable experience .after 2020 pakistan may think about getting 5th generation off the self or start manufacturing in pakistan if the economic and strategic situation sustain and demand that . before that i think pakistan might be busy in production of jf-17 in different blocks and getting fc-20 in large number to match the number game.


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## houshanghai

J10a solo display in zhuhai airshow 2008

YouTube - J-10 China AirForce ??????????J-10 F-10

vs

jf17 solo display in zhuhai airshow 2010

YouTube - JF-17 Pakistan Air Force Air Show china 2010

So finally we will see J10 b perfoming at zhuhai Air show 2012!would love to see it

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## abdulbarijan

Does any one know about the RCS of FC-20/J-10B 
It should have reduced due to the addition of DSI intake and RAM but does any one know the precise RCS value of J-10B???

...............................................

Thanks in advance


----------



## SBD-3

abdulbarijan said:


> Does any one know about the RCS of FC-20/J-10B
> It should have reduced due to the addition of DSI intake and RAM but does any one know the precise RCS value of J-10B???
> 
> ...............................................
> 
> Thanks in advance



some poster (I think Sinosoldier) claimed equal RCS to that of JSF but this does not appeal. I personally think it should be lesser than F-16's (1M2) but much greater than JSF (~0.01M2) some where near 0.1M2

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## SBD-3

houshanghai said:


> J10a solo display in zhuhai airshow 2008
> 
> YouTube - J-10 China AirForce ??????????J-10 F-10
> 
> vs
> 
> jf17 solo display in zhuhai airshow 2010
> 
> YouTube - JF-17 Pakistan Air Force Air Show china 2010
> 
> So finally we will see J10 b perfoming at zhuhai Air show 2012!would love to see it



I think performance in 2012 is a bit over optimistic, considering how many J-10B will be inducted in service in 2011. The first priority will be PLAAF platoons (which i think will be requiring about 50+ J-10Bs at least)rather than acrobatic team.

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## houshanghai

hasnain0099 said:


> I think performance in 2012 is a bit over optimistic, considering how many J-10B will be inducted in service in 2011. The first priority will be PLAAF platoons (which i think will be requiring about 50+ J-10Bs at least)rather than acrobatic team.



j10a wasn't acrobatic team's perfoming in zuhai 2008 &#12290;So most Probably we will see J10b's solo display in 2012.

j10b will be serviced in PLAAF soon.

http://fanyi.cn.yahoo.com/translate....cn/bbs/htm_data/27/1101/303685.html&lp=zh_en

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## Mani2020

This is what i got courtesy to EagleHannan

"*A few weeks ago, I showed the leaked pics to some PAF personal and they agreed that top brass of PAF has always known of this project and the pictures are indeed the J-20*. *However, like all Pakistani acquisations, we are NOT interested in J-20 as it is. **China is where the Stealth 5th generation MRCA will be bought from but that wont exactly be J-20. *
The way PAF deals with and has always delath with Chinese manufacturers (JF-17s are exception) is that we let them present what they have. Then analyse and give them our own requirements and integrate our man power and share information we get from our own sources into the project.

Eaxmples: F-7MG --> F-7PG (Chinese couldnt come up with avionics so we bought it from theird party back when sun used to shine well in west for PAF)
J-10 --> J-10B 

*LIke I said before, we have no input so far in this J-20. A few have laid eyes on it. My source told me, it will be another J-20 --> J-20-B story when Chinese will put it on Table.* Chances are the thing will NOT be on table anytime before 2015. For many reasons, including sales of J-10. *Any plane operating with PAF is a free marketing for Chinese companies (I was so proud of it when an AVIC personal said it to me in the presence of PAF personal that the world trusts PAFs standards). *
*Chinese want to see J-10B in considerable number before even offering J-20. *The money + interest of Chinese companies is in NOT offering Pakistan J-20 unless J-10B is flying with PAF in number.
*PAF exercised their judgment back in 2007, PAF could either choose to go with large number of F-16s or bring in J-10B. My info on this is, Chinese clearly denied to do anything with J-10 unless the orders of F-16s are cut down.* PAF did burn their boats after agreeing to it (I am glad they did. Thanks Allah for that) and sent thier team for a long tern partnership with China (Currently located in Chingdu). *It was only after then that the Chinese let in PAF/PAC engineers tweak with J-10s and we saw the J-10B. 
Time line for J-20 in small batch can easily be after 2016 and only then PAF might be invited to jump in.*

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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> This is what i got courtesy to EagleHannan
> 
> "*A few weeks ago, I showed the leaked pics to some PAF personal and they agreed that top brass of PAF has always known of this project and the pictures are indeed the J-20*. *However, like all Pakistani acquisations, we are NOT interested in J-20 as it is. **China is where the Stealth 5th generation MRCA will be bought from but that wont exactly be J-20. *
> The way PAF deals with and has always delath with Chinese manufacturers (JF-17s are exception) is that we let them present what they have. Then analyse and give them our own requirements and integrate our man power and share information we get from our own sources into the project.
> 
> Eaxmples: F-7MG --> F-7PG (Chinese couldnt come up with avionics so we bought it from theird party back when sun used to shine well in west for PAF)
> J-10 --> J-10B
> 
> *LIke I said before, we have no input so far in this J-20. A few have laid eyes on it. My source told me, it will be another J-20 --> J-20-B story when Chinese will put it on Table.* Chances are the thing will NOT be on table anytime before 2015. For many reasons, including sales of J-10. *Any plane operating with PAF is a free marketing for Chinese companies (I was so proud of it when an AVIC personal said it to me in the presence of PAF personal that the world trusts PAFs standards). *
> *Chinese want to see J-10B in considerable number before even offering J-20. *The money + interest of Chinese companies is in NOT offering Pakistan J-20 unless J-10B is flying with PAF in number.
> *PAF exercised their judgment back in 2007, PAF could either choose to go with large number of F-16s or bring in J-10B. My info on this is, Chinese clearly denied to do anything with J-10 unless the orders of F-16s are cut down.* PAF did burn their boats after agreeing to it (I am glad they did. Thanks Allah for that) and sent thier team for a long tern partnership with China (Currently located in Chingdu). *It was only after then that the Chinese let in PAF/PAC engineers tweak with J-10s and we saw the J-10B.
> Time line for J-20 in small batch can easily be after 2016 and only then PAF might be invited to jump in.*



very realistic, but just one point, it would be very hard to modify a stealth plane to "B" formation as even turning it to omnirole (which has been the traditional doctrine of PAF) will require significant modifications. looking at J-10B which remains an Air Superiority Fighter with though enhanced but still limited A2G capabilities and given the small order of PAF. I doubt J-20B honestly, but something like J-11D or J-16 which is expected to be an omnirole stealth fighter coming PAF way as creation of J-20B will not only require additional pains for engneers but may also entail a considerable cost


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## rockstarIN

hasnain0099 said:


> some poster (I think Sinosoldier) claimed equal RCS to that of JSF but this does not appeal. I personally think it should be lesser than F-16's (1M2) but much greater than JSF (~0.01M2) some where near 0.1M2



Fully armed one might touch 1-2 m2 considering there is no internal weapon bays..


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## Mani2020

hasnain0099 said:


> very realistic, but just one point, it would be very hard to modify a stealth plane to "B" formation as even turning it to omnirole (which has been the traditional doctrine of PAF) will require significant modifications. looking at J-10B which remains an Air Superiority Fighter with though enhanced but still limited A2G capabilities and given the small order of PAF. I doubt J-20B honestly, but something like J-11D or J-16 which is expected to be an omnirole stealth fighter coming PAF way as creation of J-20B will not only require additional pains for engneers but may also entail a considerable cost



My guess is it would be a single engine stealth fighter incorporating many technologies from J-20


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## SBD-3

rockstar said:


> Fully armed one might touch 1-2 m2 considering there is no internal weapon bays..



...stealth with 1-2m2 RCS????, even F-16's RCS is ~1m2 (JFT has lower than this)


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## rockstarIN

hasnain0099 said:


> ...stealth with 1-2m2 RCS????, even F-16's RCS is ~1m2 (JFT has lower than this)



Arn't we talking stealth? we are talking about J-10B.

F-16 clean RCS might be 1m2(without weapons, fuel tanks), but not fully armed one..


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## SBD-3

rockstar said:


> Arn't we talking stealth? we are talking about J-10B.
> 
> F-16 clean RCS might be 1m2(without weapons, fuel tanks), but not fully armed one..


agreed.....
Baseline RCS will be much lesser than F-16 cuz 
1-Bump Inlet
2-RAM
3-Some redesign
well yes if on long range strike it should carry full load but the real RCS magnifiers are 1)Paylons/Racks 2)FuelTanks i.e. three fuel tanks plus full A2A missile load. But probably they will keep it a clean configuration as PAF will not operate deep into India as land based and sea based missile launchpads will be most preferred platforms so if J-10Bs are refueled before leaving Pakistani Airspace, 550 KM, I think most probable load will be A2A as FC-20 will be more likely escorts. So yes ~1M2 but that would also be an appriciative RCS as it will reduce the detection range


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## wangrong



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## S-A-B-E-R->

wangrong said:


>



move the truck move the truck

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## Luftwaffe

What did Chinese do to J-10B, something been done to the nose cone again or its the picture.


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## kakalalaso

wangrong said:


>




2 canopies have different color.


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## kakalalaso




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## Mani2020

Luftwaffe said:


> What did Chinese do to J-10B, something been done to the nose cone again or its the picture.



No, 

the J-10 with black nose in the pics is J-10A while the one with grey nose and IRST is J-10b ,may be thats why you got confused .there is no change ,same nose cone we first saw in the very first J-10B


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## Luftwaffe

No i didn't give a look at J-10A, I am taking about J-10B because the slop dropped nose cone looks even slimmer then the previous J-10B pics or as i said could be the angle from which pic taken..


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## DANGER-ZONE

Luftwaffe said:


> No i didn't give a look at J-10A, I am taking about J-10B because the slop dropped nose cone looks even slimmer then the previous J-10B pics or as i said could be the angle from which pic taken..



i dont see anything changed. perhaps the bad picture quality and the truck behind the jet too, giving extra bright shade to bottom of the nose.


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## nightcrawler

self-delete


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## cw2005

The 10B seems having a tinted canopy. Some kind of test for J20?


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## Mani2020

cw2005 said:


> The 10B seems having a tinted canopy. Some kind of test for J20?



No, its because of the background and the color of the wall 

this pic will give you a better idea


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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> No,
> 
> the J-10 with black nose in the pics is J-10A while the one with grey nose and IRST is J-10b ,may be thats why you got confused .there is no change ,same nose cone we first saw in the very first J-10B



There are two things that i can think of 
1- The serial and color scheme indicating J-10B is in active service now ( Last time some chinese brother mentioned that J-10B is likely to enter service in 2010) so if the serial is 1031 then it could effectively mean that the aircraft is in service since 2010.
2- This is a photoshoped pic to show that J-10B is in service.
So the curx is that Either J-10B is in service or about to enter service


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## conworldus

if the J-10B is in service then the AESA radar is probably done.


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## Mani2020

hasnain0099 said:


> There are two things that i can think of
> 1- The serial and color scheme indicating J-10B is in active service now ( Last time some chinese brother mentioned that J-10B is likely to enter service in 2010) so if the serial is 1031 then it could effectively mean that the aircraft is in service since 2010.
> 2- This is a photoshoped pic to show that J-10B is in service.
> So the curx is that Either J-10B is in service or about to enter service



i don't think it is a photoshoped ,yeah the thing to notice as you mention is that the color scheme changed from yellow to grey that is an indication of being in service or atleast it has gone through initial flight testing .

as you must have remembered the 4th prototype of jf-17 although was not inducted into the PLAAF but still it has greyish color scheme with red markings on it .

So J-10b should have gone through the testing phase and now it is in advance phase


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## SBD-3

cw2005 said:


> The 10B seems having a tinted canopy. Some kind of test for J20?



very likely.... here have a look

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## Silk

That thing what is circled is light emitter. You have the same on the tail. It reduces RCS (no external device with a mirror) and it can control the light so you can control who sees you form what distance. These were long time standard on naval planes.


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## cw2005

With the speed of how the Chinese develope their 5G technologies, In 2015, Pakistan might have a good chance to receive its J10s loaded with ASEA, Tinted Canopy, RAM, WS10x? with more power, increased composite usage, reduced weight, DSI, and improved BVRM. That would be as good as any 4++ fighters available in the market. However, these would also add cost to the plane. From what I observe in this forum, I do not believe Pakistan would invest in J10 if it is not significantly more advance than its F16s.


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## Stealth_fighter



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## siegecrossbow

Stealth_fighter said:


>



Best PS I've seen. Hopefully the real paintwork is going to be like this.


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## Stealth_fighter

yeah hopefully


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## Manticore

cw2005 said:


> With the speed of how the Chinese develope their 5G technologies, In 2015, Pakistan might have a good chance to receive its J10s loaded with ASEA, Tinted Canopy, RAM, WS10x? with more power, increased composite usage, reduced weight, DSI, and improved BVRM. That would be as good as any 4++ fighters available in the market. However, these would also add cost to the plane. From what I observe in this forum, I do not believe Pakistan would invest in J10 if it is not significantly more advance than its F16s.



hi! the jf17 and jxb are testbeds for many jxx technologies -- some external obvious examples, some internal and hidden examples

the requirement of paf---considering indian mmrca and su30 -- was to do mock fights with most of the 4.5+ fighters around the world , not only to get experience in countering tactics , but also setting a benchmark for quality requirements in jxb...examples..

red flag
anatolian eagle
iron eagle
falcon meet
-- one going on in saudi arabia just now

also some of our pilots are flying chinese 4.5+ fighter
we are already operating f16 blk52s


j10b might just endup a cross between f16 blk60/eurofighter/ j11b , not to forget borrowing some gadgets from jxx


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## Manticore

siegecrossbow said:


> Best PS I've seen. Hopefully the real paintwork is going to be like this.



the white griffin logo , gave it away



hasnain0099 said:


> very likely.... here have a look



i couldve really used this pic in my video,,


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## SBD-3

Silk said:


> That thing what is circled is light emitter. You have the same on the tail. It reduces RCS (no external device with a mirror) and it can control the light so you can control who sees you form what distance. These were long time standard on naval planes.


really???? well let me show you some things

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## siegecrossbow

hasnain0099 said:


> really???? well let me show you some things



In other words a slap in the face to those "experts" who think that China doesn't have plane based AESA.

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## S10

hasnain0099 said:


> really???? well let me show you some things


From my understanding, AESA generates quite a bit of heat and that thing is used for ventilation purposes.


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## SBD-3

S10 said:


> From my understanding, AESA generates quite a bit of heat and that thing is used for ventilation purposes.



of couse the energy emmisions are enourmous if you consider only watts or kilo watts of MSAs against often Megawatts of energy of AESAs. One more good thing is that now with AESA in, we can say bye bye to the installation of Jamming pods as the enourmous energy of AESA can effectively be used also as a jamming device


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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> In other words a slap in the face to those "experts" who think that China doesn't have plane based AESA.



and that too in active service!, now see how 

1st prototype





3rd Prototype





And now consider this




you can see1031 means 1st induction in 2010.
and now this




if you concentrate, you can see that J-10 in new pic also carries the same serial number i.e. 1031 
what is notable is that unlike last time 
what makes me absolutely sure is that look at this pic




here J-10 carries no serial, which led us to conclude at that time that it was in final testing for PLAAF as PLAAF insignia can be seen. But serial number makes me 99.9% sure that China has not only an active plane born AESA but in active service

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## Silk

hasnain0099 said:


> really???? well let me show you some things



Actually what did you show me?

O here a tomcat with AESA!





And even a Phantom during Vietnam war....






That F15 is launching not even AMRAAM but AIM7... That is a very old pic. Did not know they had AESA in it.


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## Silk

Here... Read some. Maybe it helps next time to understand what it is and not copy what others post.

HOME OF M.A.T.S. - The most comprehensive Grumman F-14 Reference Work - by Torsten Anft!


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## xuwei

In this pictrue we can see:differ from J10A,it's gold-plated cockpit in J10B,which also test for J20.


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## SBD-3

Silk said:


> Actually what did you show me?
> 
> O here a tomcat with AESA!
> 
> And even a Phantom during Vietnam war....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That F15 is launching not even AMRAAM but AIM7... That is a very old pic. Did not know they had AESA in it.



So you're implying that if a fighter can fire a BVRAAM its necessarily needs aesa?.........Well F-16 Block 52+ of PAF can fire AMRAAM but they are not AESAed. Block 40 can fire AMRAAM but they are not AESAed. Typhoon can fire AMRAAM but its not AESAed. MIG-29s can fire Vymple R-77 BVRAAM but they are not AESAed. Even F-14A could fire AIM-54 Phoenix missile which had longer range than AMRAAM but it did not have AESA. AESA is not necessarily a radar with long range. But what makes it more preferable is its capabilities. Radar uses signals to detect target, for this, essentially signal has to travel 1) to the object 2) return back to the aircraft but radar's received energy drops with the fourth power of distance which essentaially limits the quality of signal recieved.Here AESAs come to help as the higher energy of these radars ensure that signal quality is good enough which enhances the chances of detection. Secondly since radars use radio signals thus any good RWR is capable to store different frequencies that it senses in its memory for different radars and then able to interpert it when a similar set of frequencies is sensed. After matching the received frequency against the known set, it issues a Radar warning to the pilot essentially even before the host radar is able to hear the echo. But since with greater energy at disposal, AESA can virtual utter every signal with differnt frequency from the previous one randomely thus RWR is essentially getting a new frequency everytime which makes it impossible to get an idea of what is present on the other side which makes its vurtually ineffecitive against AESA. BVRAAM can be fired with any good MSA.
2- F-14 AFAIK, never had an AESA even the latest F-14D had APG 71
F-14D

Now let me give you another example 

here is F-18C varient with MSA




and here is F-18E with APG-79 AESA




can you see the exhaust at nose?


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## Silk

Spanish F18 Hornet 14 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Just position lights... Or since when did Spain added Aesa?


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## Silk

I do not see the AESA, do you?


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## SBD-3

Silk said:


> I do not see the AESA, do you?



If you see the intakes on the second plane, they are round intakes, which means its hornet C\D not E\F which have rectangular intakes.


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## Stealth_fighter



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## houshanghai



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## Silk

hasnain0099 said:


> If you see the intakes on the second plane, they are round intakes, which means its hornet C\D not E\F which have rectangular intakes.



Let me try to understand. First you show me that those horizontal lines near the radome are coolers or linked with the AESA radar. Now I show you those lines with an old plane and a Spanish hornet with o EASA and you still think you are correct? Where did we miscommunicate?


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## SBD-3

Silk said:


> Let me try to understand. First you show me that those horizontal lines near the radome are coolers or linked with the AESA radar. Now I show you those lines with an old plane and a Spanish hornet with o EASA and you still think you are correct? Where did we miscommunicate?



Since you're very confident, let me put it in counter question, how can we identify AESA born plaform and Non-AESA born one


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## SQ8

If you gentlemen wish to identify an AESA.. best to look at the antenna itself.
Current AESA antenna's are thick due to the T/R modules.
A normal PD antenna is a nice thin flat plate..
Although.. I suppose with the continuing miniaturization of power circuits..newer AESA's may get thinner and smaller as well. 

If this was what you are discussing...


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## symbios

Information on every aspect of the Fighting Falcon.


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## SBD-3

santro said:


> If you gentlemen wish to identify an AESA.. best to look at the antenna itself.
> Current AESA antenna's are thick due to the T/R modules.
> A normal PD antenna is a nice thin flat plate..
> Although.. I suppose with the continuing miniaturization of power circuits..newer AESA's may get thinner and smaller as well.
> 
> If this was what you are discussing...



If you go a bit backward (on previous page) I am pretty sure you ll be able to grab the idea of our discussion. I hope the gentalman silk, since has presumably more know how about identification of AESA born aircraft, so i am hoping that he will be able to correct me soon. I am waiting for his reply. I have made my arguments on the previous page. Eventhough I was convinced of his "in depth" understanding of AESA when he made a hallarious post about AESA being the sole radar to give BVR capability to an aircraft  but anyways I may be wrong, so just waiting for his reply


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## SQ8

Not sure who knows more.. 
But the both of you are definitely on entirely different pages.

What he is alluding to.. is this:





These are strip lights(not sure of the exact technical name for them) and generally seen on Boeing or specifically the MD jets...
The F-111 also had such lighting.
The UAEAF F-16's have such reflectors on the tails and I suppose on the nose as well.. a better end to this debate would be a night shot of the F-16E to see if it has a glowing strip on the nose where the purported ventilation for the AESA is said to be.
I do think though.. that those are the strip lights..
The blacked out type are supposed to be NVG and IR friendly..
Another way to wait for a shot of the J-10b at night.. or try to check the tail or other surfaces for these strips..
Since quite a few modern jets carry these low voltage lights.

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## Silk

santro said:


> Not sure who knows more..
> But the both of you are definitely on entirely different pages.
> 
> What he is alluding to.. is this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are strip lights(not sure of the exact technical name for them) and generally seen on Boeing or specifically the MD jets...
> The F-111 also had such lighting.
> The UAEAF F-16's have such reflectors on the tails and I suppose on the nose as well.. a better end to this debate would be a night shot of the F-16E to see if it has a glowing strip on the nose where the purported ventilation for the AESA is said to be.
> I do think though.. that those are the strip lights..
> The blacked out type are supposed to be NVG and IR friendly..
> Another way to wait for a shot of the J-10b at night.. or try to check the tail or other surfaces for these strips..
> Since quite a few modern jets carry these low voltage lights.



So as I said these are low observable position lights. They can be dimmed to avoid detection from certain distances but clear enough for close maneuvering. These lights are standard for decades in US navy. You need those lights to control aircraft movement on the aircraft carrier. You surely do not want all those flashing lights...

Hasnai... It takes a man to admit that he was wrong.

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## SBD-3

santro said:


> Not sure who knows more..
> But the both of you are definitely on entirely different pages.
> 
> What he is alluding to.. is this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are strip lights(not sure of the exact technical name for them) and generally seen on Boeing or specifically the MD jets...
> The F-111 also had such lighting.
> The UAEAF F-16's have such reflectors on the tails and I suppose on the nose as well.. a better end to this debate would be a night shot of the F-16E to see if it has a glowing strip on the nose where the purported ventilation for the AESA is said to be.
> I do think though.. that those are the strip lights..
> The blacked out type are supposed to be NVG and IR friendly..
> Another way to wait for a shot of the J-10b at night.. or try to check the tail or other surfaces for these strips..
> Since quite a few modern jets carry these low voltage lights.



Thank you for correcting me, now i stand corrected


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## DANGER-ZONE

here are a few more lights 
F-14 tomcat





also on IAF C-130j





German F-4s





Canadian F-5





British Hawk 





Its surly doesn't have to do anything with AESA radar.


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## DANGER-ZONE

wasn't that needed in Jf-17 too ? 
even HAL LCA teja also has such lights. !


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## Silk

I think the improved JF17 will probably go for it cause those bulbs are causing more RCS. Beside that you do want to achieve maximum visual stealth and if the neighbour is covering your borders it is not smart to use flash bulbs hat are seen far away.

FC20 does have these positions lights already.

Hasnai bro. No problems. We need these discussions to find the facts.There are many battles in a war and winning them all is impossible.


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## SQ8

If the Fc-20 is using the IR capable lights.. then it seems a sure bet.. that the jet is being designed from the onset to be a true MR.. capable of Day/night precious strikes..in other words.. a MRCA.

There are other ways to assume an AESA.. 
for one thing.. why the redesigned nose??
There seemed nothing wrong with the last one.. and the F-16 DSI demonstrator showed that the DSI need not effect nose aerodynamics.

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## Silk

santro said:


> If the Fc-20 is using the IR capable lights.. then it seems a sure bet.. that the jet is being designed from the onset to be a true MR.. capable of Day/night precious strikes..in other words.. a MRCA.
> 
> There are other ways to assume an AESA..
> for one thing.. why the redesigned nose??
> There seemed nothing wrong with the last one.. and the F-16 DSI demonstrator showed that the DSI need not effect nose aerodynamics.




If you develop a plane right now then it would be stupid to only think about the conventional rotating radar. Why not incorporating the slightly tilted attachment? And by the time it is ready then there is probably a big chance to add AESA. 

I doubt you see the Block60 with lots of lower RCS developments. The one and only development is Silent Eagle and even then you have not extremely new plane and just look at the price. It is even more expensive then JSF! So adding DSI on the f16 might be interesting but probably costly. The USA is not willing to go the lower RCS way with big structural redesigns. They jump from 4th gen to F22 and JSF.

About FC20 being multirole. Most of the planes are multi/omi role. Even low RCS planes need to do A2A and A2G. You have some specialists like F117 but that is some time ago.

About nose effect. There is a whole different effect if you have side inlets. The chin intake is a lot bigger to compensate the nose upwards movement.

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## SQ8

Silk said:


> If you develop a plane right now then it would be stupid to only think about the conventional rotating radar. Why not incorporating the slightly tilted attachment? And by the time it is ready then there is probably a big chance to add AESA.
> 
> I doubt you see the Block60 with lots of lower RCS developments. The one and only development is Silent Eagle and even then you have not extremely new plane and just look at the price. It is even more expensive then JSF! So adding DSI on the f16 might be interesting but probably costly. The USA is not willing to go the lower RCS way with big structural redesigns. They jump from 4th gen to F22 and JSF.
> 
> *About FC20 being multirole*. Most of the planes are multi/omi role. Even low RCS planes need to do A2A and A2G. You have some specialists like F117 but that is some time ago.
> 
> About nose effect. There is a whole different effect if you have side inlets. The chin intake is a lot bigger to compensate the nose upwards movement.



I was referring to the F-16 DSI testbed only...
Which was a testbed for the DSI.. and did not need any modifications to the nose.

And yes.. its quite likely that you would expect the FC-20 to have an AESA system on a swashplate.

The US is avoiding the stealth structural upgrades because it is hedging its bets on the JSF.. since it only has a limited budget..and any F-15SE type upgrades will result in taking up the share of the JSF meaning shaving off orders.. as it is the program is having setbacks.
But there are now talks underway for a "golden" eagle type of upgrade for the F-15C fleet to augment the F-22's.. so while there may not be any structural changes.. a good dosage of RAM and something akin to the ASPJ would be in the order..

The bold part.. I stated to reiterate for those with doubts about the FC-20..especially the more vocal(or what would be the accurate term for a typed statement??) ones.


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## alimobin memon

read first para in page


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## Stealth_fighter

I think this picture J-10 seems like mig-29UB ....


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## ANG

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ej5kQwZWlzM/TTlMCQ9EiRI/AAAAAAAABfU/Ccu7EGj3NEc/s1600/Chengdu_J-10B.jpg


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## farhan_9909

ANG said:


> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ej5kQwZWlzM/TTlMCQ9EiRI/AAAAAAAABfU/Ccu7EGj3NEc/s1600/Chengdu_J-10B.jpg



i dnt even knw the name of this language


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## ANG

Chengdu J-10 Next Variant Developing ~ ASIAN TECH NEWS


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## Stealth_fighter



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## Lankan Ranger

*J-10B*

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## Lankan Ranger




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## Lankan Ranger




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## Lankan Ranger




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## SEAL

*F-16 Vista with TVC *
Vista's TVC nozzle max movement is 17degrees and it can do Cobra maneuver. I wish JF-17 future blocks and J-10B to have TVC engine.


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## siegecrossbow

According to CCTV the J-10s flown by the Second Division achieved a 1:18 kill ratio against other planes in a mock air-battle.


ZTCD£¬½ñÈÕCCAV±¨µÀÄÏ½®º½¿ÕÄ³Ê¦¼ß10ÓëÐÖµÜ²¿¶Ó¿ÕÕ½Õ½Ëð±È1±È18| Ó¥»÷³¤¿Õ - ·ÉÑï¾üÊÂ ÐñÈÕ³ö¶«·½£¬¾«²ÊÔÚ·ÉÑï - powered by phpwind.net

If someone has a link to the CCTV video please share it with us.

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## Areesh

siegecrossbow said:


> According to CCTV the J-10s flown by the Second Division achieved a 1:18 kill ratio against other planes in a mock air-battle.
> 
> 
> ZTCD£¬½ñÈÕCCAV±¨µÀÄÏ½®º½¿ÕÄ³Ê¦¼ß10ÓëÐÖµÜ²¿¶Ó¿ÕÕ½Õ½Ëð±È1±È18| Ó¥»÷³¤¿Õ - ·ÉÑï¾üÊÂ ÐñÈÕ³ö¶«·½£¬¾«²ÊÔÚ·ÉÑï - powered by phpwind.net
> 
> If someone has a link to the CCTV video please share it with us.



Who were the opponents of J-10 in that mock air battle?

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## siegecrossbow

Areesh said:


> Who were the opponents of J-10 in that mock air battle?



CCTV showed footages of J-11 and J-8II but since the channel is notorious for posting the wrong planes, no one is sure at this point.


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## siegecrossbow

Video link to the J-10 exercise news:

¾üÊÂ±¨µÀ 2011-01-22"+pindao+"_ÖÐ¹úÍøÂçµçÊÓÌ¨

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## SekrutYakhni

I don't know many things about defence but I was curious to ask this...

The landing gear of Chinese aircrafts are same as the U.S. (by in large) or are they completely different?


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## SQ8

saad445566 said:


> I don't know many things about defence but I was curious to ask this...
> 
> The landing gear of Chinese aircrafts are same as the U.S. (by in large) or are they completely different?



The initial Chinese jets were copies of the Russian designs and usually had rugged landing gear.. suitable for unpaved operations.
With their own indigenous designs..the chinese have gone to the American camp believing in the availability of Paved runways at all times for takeoff. And consequently the landing gears have lost their girth and weight.. 
saving space.. but losing the ability that Russian jets possess of taking off from a farm road if needed.


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## Sinnerman108

Where did the canards go on this one ?


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## SQ8

The angle of the pic makes it look as if they arent there..
But look closely at the first leading edge from the fuselage you see...
That is the canard..
If you look at the first hardpoint..the leading edge changes abruptly after it..
which is infact the edge of the canard blending in..
The actual wing and its leading edge is the darker yellow..


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## Sinnerman108

santro said:


> The angle of the pic makes it look as if they arent there..
> But look closely at the first leading edge from the fuselage you see...
> That is the canard..
> If you look at the first hardpoint..the leading edge changes abruptly after it..
> which is infact the edge of the canard blending in..
> The actual wing and its leading edge is the darker yellow..



Yaar,

Off course i did that ... Checked the LERX and observed the paint difference.
it is evident here,
the main wing ... see 




I don't mean to suggest any thing ...
Just curious

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## SQ8

Just helping out...


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## Sinnerman108

santro said:


> Just helping out...



Well

you are right ... there are TWO shades of yellow ...
one of them is the leading edge, 
the other one is the canards !

cat killed !


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## houshanghai

http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMjM5MDcyNjE2/v.swf

j10 air refueling

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## houshanghai

posted duplication


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## SBD-3

an interesting post from eaglehannan


> Munir has rightly said "It more like you show confidence and commit to the cause." All companies work like it. Chinese business mentality is as such, they want to know before selling if they'll get money or not. It simple plain business. They knew once the funds are allocated to F-16s there is a little chance Pakistan will jump in on J-10B. PAF at that time was not confident on J-10 as a top tier AC. But once Chinese allowed us in on design and avionics, PAF did cut orders for F-16s. I remember when early J-10 cockpit pictures were released, we all concluded that it&#8217;s no better than JF-17 and then near exact layout was brought in on J-10s later since Pakistan committed to J-10B.
> Sir, for J-10s Pakistan is given very generous deal, inshallah I'll write about it when I am permitted to. I must commend Chinese for their business ideas. They knew Pakistan back in 2005/6 is not interested in J-10s and that simply means no market for J-10 outside China as the world sees Pakistan as the launch customer of anything good coming from China. Examples are J6/F-6, J7/F-7, J7MGs/F-7PG and inshallah FC-1/JF-17s. There was no sales of JH-7 and J-8MII, even when they were offered to many and are serving PLAAF in numbers.
> I think, it was PakDef where back in 2006, I wrote that there is serious evaluation of J-10 going on. PAF saw the potential and wanted R&D with Chinese on another version of partially same air frame but improved avionics.* PAF brought in their info on an F-16 version avionics that was to be unveiled in Middle East*. In fact the RFP sent to LM was forwarded to Chinese with minor changes (That&#8217;s not my assumption or speculation).
> As per Allah's will and thankfully it was in a good way that we finally decided to peal away from US dependence. I can imagine if we would have put our eggs in US basket, what would have been the situation today. "Never again" was rightly exercised.
> Right now, the planned acquisition of *J-10B's first batch is in mid of 2013* Inshallah. Engine is a hurdle (this is my speculation). *We might not want to go for AL31FN and as per my info WS-10 is not failed but having teething problems, bad ones*. Other than that, *I confirm the engine is built with high grade materials and new labs are being built to check the manufacturing process for it*. This shows commitment and promise. Some PAF personal visiting these labs told me, they are impressed. Nanjing institute is prime contractor for Radar (both Air born and AD. AD team is here already and inshallah we'll see some joint project in AD as well)for PAF.

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## shanixee

hasnain0099 said:


> an interesting post from eaglehannan



Bro 1 simple question...will J10 be able to take MRCA of india....wat does inside of PAF thinks...will it be good enough...


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## Mani2020

shanixee said:


> Bro 1 simple question...will J10 be able to take MRCA of india....wat does inside of PAF thinks...will it be good enough...



Fc-20 has been customized by PAF while keeping in mind the MRCA ,as the basic aim is to deal the threat of MRCA .You can't compare aircrafts one on one basis specially when there are many twin engine fighters competing in MRCA ,its still to be decided which jet is going to win ,if it happens before the induction of Fc-20 it will give more clear idea to PAF about what they will be dealing in future .

Specially with the emergence of J-20 and J-10B being said to be a test bed i don't see why FC-20 will not be able to deal with MRCA.the main thing is that it will be customized by PAF And i think they are professional enough to know what they hold


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## shanixee

Mani2020 said:


> Fc-20 has been customized by PAF while keeping in mind the MRCA ,as the basic aim is to deal the threat of MRCA .You can't compare aircrafts one on one basis specially when there are many twin engine fighters competing in MRCA ,its still to be decided which jet is going to win ,if it happens before the induction of Fc-20 it will give more clear idea to PAF about what they will be dealing in future .
> 
> Specially with the emergence of J-20 and J-10B being said to be a test bed i don't see why FC-20 will not be able to deal with MRCA.the main thing is that it will be customized by PAF And i think they are professional enough to know what they hold



Thanks for your reply... few more questions...1 is PAF aircheif said that MRCA will make difference so why he said that...2nd J10 is also comming in twin engine...now plz dont tell me its not in our doctrine...we can hve both...single engine and twin engine


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## SBD-3

shanixee said:


> Bro 1 simple question...will J10 be able to take MRCA of india....wat does inside of PAF thinks...will it be good enough...





> PAF brought in their info on an F-16 version avionics that was to be unveiled in Middle East.


I think This pretty much sums up every thing. The benchmark for J-10B was none other than desert falcon (what i can confirm is that UAE funded the development of Desert falcon so there is a good reason to believe that such information would have been used for J-10B RFP).
to know more on desert falcon please consider the following link
The UAE&#8217;s F-16 Block 60 Desert Falcon Fleet


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## SBD-3

shanixee said:


> Thanks for your reply... few more questions...1 is PAF aircheif said that MRCA will make difference so why he said that...2nd J10 is also comming in twin engine...now plz dont tell me its not in our doctrine...we can hve both...single engine and twin engine


if there is a twin engine thing, its basically a product for PLA navy.PAF may not be interested in it


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## Mani2020

shanixee said:


> Thanks for your reply... few more questions...1 is PAF aircheif said that MRCA will make difference so why he said that...2nd J10 is also comming in twin engine...now plz dont tell me its not in our doctrine...we can hve both...single engine and twin engine



Because apart from MRCA we also have to negate large fleet of MKI's that will be somewhere around 270 mark and also FC-20's are inducted in limited numbers ,just 2 squadrons as of now,there are rumors that the order may go upto 150 but still you can't bank on rumors until and unless there is some solid background .


The twin engine of J-10 which has been rumored around as J-10C is still nowhere near reality ,we even don't know that will it ever materialize or its just a paper concept .even if there is development going on of J-10C still we can't go for it as it will take a lot of time for PAF to induct them and time is essence in this case

Secondly Twin engine doesnot always mean that it is better ,when you can accomplish your purpose with single engine then whats the need to burden yourself.

And yes according to AFDP PAF is refrained from inducting any twin engine aircraft until 2019.Yes we have operated twin engine aircrafts in past but that was a different case


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## Mani2020

hasnain0099 said:


> I think This pretty much sums up every thing. The benchmark for J-10B was none other than desert falcon (what i can confirm is that UAE funded the development of Desert falcon so there is a good reason to believe that such information would have been used for J-10B RFP).
> to know more on desert falcon please consider the following link
> The UAEs F-16 Block 60 Desert Falcon Fleet



Husnain the more focus would have been on the AESA radar of desert falcons and the know how of it other then that i don't see anything as Desert falcons have almost everything similar to our Block 52's ,the different is just AESA radar .


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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> Husnain the more focus would have been on the AESA radar of desert falcons and the know how of it other then that i don't see anything as Desert falcons have almost everything similar to our Block 52's ,the different is just AESA radar .



of course our block 52 came after desert falcons. so once in place, these upgrades would have been on offer. What i was trying to point is that since a similar version is put against RFP of MRCA, thus benchmarking Desert falcon would mean meeting or exceeding MCRA requirements indirectly

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## shanixee

hasnain0099 said:


> I think This pretty much sums up every thing. The benchmark for J-10B was none other than desert falcon (what i can confirm is that UAE funded the development of Desert falcon so there is a good reason to believe that such information would have been used for J-10B RFP).
> to know more on desert falcon please consider the following link
> The UAEs F-16 Block 60 Desert Falcon Fleet



ok agreed the benchmark is Block 60.....but if chinese can meet this benchmark for J10B...why cant they meet the same benchmark for JF17 thunder....why is PAF looking eueropean countries for it...and how better is Block 60 AESA rader from Block 52+ that we got..


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## conworldus

shanixee said:


> ok agreed the benchmark is Block 60.....but if chinese can meet this benchmark for J10B...why cant they meet the same benchmark for JF17 thunder....why is *PAF looking eueropean countries *for it...and how better is Block 60 AESA rader from Block 52+ that we got..



this is pakistan's way of helping china out.

1. china will not put PLA standard radar/avionics on the jf-17 because the plane can be easily inspect by western nations. that will be like giving secrets away.

2. european system are decent and they will make the jf-17 potent. It also keeps china updated on foreign technology. Not necesarily for copying because they might not be better, but at least for having the intelligence...


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## shanixee

Mani2020 said:


> Because apart from MRCA we also have to negate large fleet of MKI's that will be somewhere around 270 mark and also FC-20's are inducted in limited numbers ,just 2 squadrons as of now,there are rumors that the order may go upto 150 but still you can't bank on rumors until and unless there is some solid background .
> 
> 
> The twin engine of J-10 which has been rumored around as J-10C is still nowhere near reality ,we even don't know that will it ever materialize or its just a paper concept .even if there is development going on of J-10C still we can't go for it as it will take a lot of time for PAF to induct them and time is essence in this case
> 
> Secondly Twin engine doesnot always mean that it is better ,when you can accomplish your purpose with single engine then whats the need to burden yourself.
> 
> And yes according to AFDP PAF is refrained from inducting any twin engine aircraft until 2019.Yes we have operated twin engine aircrafts in past but that was a different case



yeah u hve got some weight in ur argument...but i dont think PAF has conciered anything to counter MRCA..they are only reling on FC20 and JF17 as yet..????


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## Mani2020

hasnain0099 said:


> of course our block 52 came after desert falcons. so once in place, these upgrades would have been on offer. What i was trying to point is that since a similar version is put against RFP of MRCA, thus benchmarking Desert falcon would mean meeting or exceeding MCRA requirements indirectly



The F-16 offered to India is of version F-16IN which was said to be most advanced version, so it is still to see what were the additions to desert falcon to convert it into IN ,secondly there is not only F-16IN competing rather then variety of other platforms with everyone having unique speciality and characteristics thats why i said comparing FC-20 on one-on-one basis is just impossible . Also i don't see MRCA going to F-16


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## Mani2020

shanixee said:


> yeah u hve got some weight in ur argument...but i dont think PAF has conciered anything to counter MRCA..they are only reling on FC20 and JF17 as yet..????



You forgot to mention f-16's too and that too being upgraded too block 52 standard . 

With the kind of budget PAF has (thanks to our economy and poor policies) These 3 platforms are more then enough,mean with such cash strapped country how much you can go for .we already have done quite a bit to with limited budget to maintain a nice blend of modernization .


If economy gets better then we might see something else but till then these are the backbone

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## shanixee

Mani2020 said:


> You forgot to mention f-16's too and that too being upgraded too block 52 standard .
> 
> With the kind of budget PAF has (thanks to our economy and poor policies) These 3 platforms are more then enough,mean with such cash strapped country how much you can go for .we already have done quite a bit to with limited budget to maintain a nice blend of modernization .
> 
> 
> If economy gets better then we might see something else but till then these are the backbone



hey u mind adding me on yahoo or msn...its shanixeee@yahoo.com..or xeeshan1@hotmail.com...we can talk 
regards


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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> The F-16 offered to India is of version F-16IN which was said to be most advanced version, so it is still to see what were the additions to desert falcon to convert it into IN ,secondly there is not only F-16IN competing rather then variety of other platforms with everyone having unique speciality and characteristics thats why i said comparing FC-20 on one-on-one basis is just impossible . Also i don't see MRCA going to F-16



inbuilt IRST is the most prominent upgrade in block 70. well in systems, it will be pretty much on par with Desert Falcon (or some additions from JSF program but i dont see much difference as Block 60 came in a time where the JSF and F-22 programs existed). to know more, here is the link and you can compare it with the information about desert falcon i posted before
F-16IN Super Viper | Lockheed Martin


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## SQ8

conworldus said:


> this is pakistan's way of helping china out.
> 
> 1. *china will not put PLA standard radar/avionics on the jf-17 because the plane can be easily inspect by western nations. that will be like giving secrets away.
> *
> 2. european system are decent and they will make the jf-17 potent. It also keeps china updated on foreign technology. Not necesarily for copying because they might not be better, but at least for having the intelligence...



It goes both ways..when we make sure the new Block 52's dont get scanned by the Chinese, we make sure the chinese hardware does not get inspected by the West.
No restrictions as such.


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## SBD-3

shanixee said:


> ok agreed the benchmark is Block 60.....but if chinese can meet this benchmark for J10B...why cant they meet the same benchmark for JF17 thunder....*why is PAF looking eueropean countries for it*...and how better is Block 60 AESA rader from Block 52+ that we got..



for what???....Radar is now confirmed to be Chinese as PAF gears building them in house. Engine is also not going to Europeans. Avionics are being built in house also. Where did you read now PAF is looking to west. If you are mentioning the french deal. There has not been anything on this for a long time now. So IMHO, PAF is looking to put local components on JFT.


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## shanixee

santro said:


> It goes both ways..when we make sure the new Block 52's dont get scanned by the Chinese, we make sure the chinese hardware does not get inspected by the West.
> No restrictions as such.



well pilot is the most important one in whole scenerio....wat i am trying to say is that he is the person who know everything in his finger tips.. doesnt matter even if u dont show Block 52 to chinese but pilot can brief them how it works and wat kind of interface it it is having


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## SQ8

shanixee said:


> well pilot is the most important one in whole scenerio....wat i am trying to say is that he is the person who know everything in his finger tips.. doesnt matter even if u dont show Block 52 to chinese but pilot can brief them how it works and wat kind of interface it it is having



There is a difference in somebody telling you 
"its a great jet, excellent maneuverability and great avionics"

and

"corner velocity is at 450knots with 98% RPM indicated, the radar scans between one tenth of a millisecond at 50hz intervals."

I dont think the Pilots indulge in the latter.

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## shanixee

hasnain0099 said:


> for what???....Radar is now confirmed to be Chinese as PAF gears building them in house. Engine is also not going to Europeans. Avionics are being built in house also. Where did you read now PAF is looking to west. If you are mentioning the french deal. There has not been anything on this for a long time now. So IMHO, PAF is looking to put local components on JFT.



Bro for up coming blocks PAF is looking for more potent radar...


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## Mani2020

shanixee said:


> Bro for up coming blocks PAF is looking for more potent radar...



The block2 radar will be the Klj-7 with some modifications and incorporation of indigenous components and the block 3 will most probably have Chinese AESA radar


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## houshanghai

YouTube - Serbian Air Force Visit j-10

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## Parashuram1

houshanghai said:


> YouTube - Serbian Air Force Visit j-10


I never knew Serbs had a registered interest in the J-10? Also, when your deal with Pakistan was signed, only a few South Asian defense journals reported it with the revelation that Chinese only offered J-10s to Pakistan so far and no one else.


----------



## farhan_9909

Mani2020 said:


> The block2 radar will be the Klj-7 with some modifications and incorporation of indigenous components and the block 3 will most probably have Chinese AESA radar



block 3 means after first 100? or after first 150.


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## houshanghai

Parashuram1 said:


> I never knew Serbs had a registered interest in the J-10? Also, when your deal with Pakistan was signed, only a few South Asian defense journals reported it with the revelation that Chinese only offered J-10s to Pakistan so far and no one else.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...tirole-fighter-thread-4-a-23.html#post1139904

it seems like that they were more interesting in jf17

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## SBD-3

houshanghai said:


> YouTube - Serbian Air Force Visit j-10


Awsome video, Luved the take off. J-10 is some bird!.By looking at the delegation's size i can say that they meant business.Congratulations to China on this development

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## SBD-3

farhan_9909 said:


> block 3 means after first 100? or after first 150.



The last 100 (150-250)


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## farhan_9909

hasnain0099 said:


> The last 100 (150-250)



dats sad..it means AESA dream for jf-17 before 2016-17 is nt possible


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## razgriz19

Parashuram1 said:


> I never knew Serbs had a registered interest in the J-10? Also, when your deal with Pakistan was signed, only a few South Asian defense journals reported it with the revelation that Chinese only offered J-10s to Pakistan so far and no one else.



actually china eagerly wants to sell both of its fighters J-10 and thunder to any nation who wants buy them..

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## Manticore

houshanghai said:


> YouTube - Serbian Air Force Visit j-10



this event took place awhile back , didnt it?

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## abdulbarijan

farhan_9909 said:


> dats sad..it means AESA dream for jf-17 before 2016-17 is nt possible



Hey no need to be sad block 2 will incorporate a radar which Pakistan will make with Chinese assistance,any way 2016-17 isn't far away and we need to take small steps before taking a massive one


----------



## houshanghai

ANTIBODY said:


> this event took place awhile back , didnt it?



it is now unclear and SAF visited jf17's performance too

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## Mani2020

houshanghai said:


> it is now unclear and SAF visited jf17's performance too



any video of that


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## houshanghai

Mani2020 said:


> any video of that









i haven&#8216;t any videos ,only have a pic from a old threads of CDF 

and SAF should be visit PAF jf17 performance in zhuhai airshow too.

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## razgriz19

does anyone have a video of SD-10 being test fire???
thanx in advance!


----------



## SBD-3

razgriz19 said:


> does anyone have a video of SD-10 being test fire???
> thanx in advance!



Eaglehannan did point to the fact that PAF tested the SD-10A but was not satisfied with it. While SD-10B is undergoing testing on FC-1 version in China


----------



## monitor

hasnain0099 said:


> Eaglehannan did point to the fact that PAF tested the SD-10A but was not satisfied with it. While SD-10B is undergoing testing on FC-1 version in China



please post Any picture / video available of the test .thanks in advance


----------



## SBD-3

monitor said:


> please post Any picture / video available of the test .thanks in advance


None have been leaked so far, they dont suppose to invite photographers on their missile testing facilities do they?


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## Super Falcon

the pic of JF 17 thunder i think it is not a J 10


----------



## lamdafriend

AMCA said:


> Look Sir, I hope You are not well aware of our Program, If You are not, Why would U bother speaking of it... If U need to Know more you may Come to Tejas Thread .... For Your Avatar, Go to user Cp(top left) then click edit avatar


thanks for the avatar,and further i know very much about the lca,and i can say that u can be proud of it
what i meant is that pak govt may be ready to sell its jet to some politically unstable nations too,whereas india's policies won,t allow itself to sell war machines to a nation that can be easily over powered by bands of thugs with kalanishkovs,or a gone wrong president.

further the jf 17 is cheaper and there are many pak friendly 3rd world nations


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## SBD-3

Anyways back to the topic, now the discussion is heating up for Block II and FC-20 and even some informed people are hinting about J-20 tech in JFT-II (MFD is the most prominent part)


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## Mani2020

hasnain0099 said:


> Anyways back to the topic, now the discussion is heating up for Block II and FC-20 and even some informed people are hinting about J-20 tech in JFT-II (MFD is the most prominent part)



Hasnain ,it will be highly unlikely ,we will see some of the J-20 tech in FC-20 but in Jf-17 it seems highly unlikely as we know that JF-17 was basically designed as a medium tech and low cost fighter .incorporating 5th generation tech in it will kill the purpose and the price will shoot up as we know 5th generation tech is very costly also when we are incorporating the 5th generation tech in FC-20 which are meant to be high-end fighters then why would we go for the same J-20 tech in jf-17 ,it will result in lot of similarities in FC-20 and jf-17 then.

block 2 will not be much enhanced version as compared to block1 as it will just be added with some of the basic things which are currently lacking in current jf-17 like IFR, IRST etc .

Also large chuck of Block 1 is completed ,we have 21 jf-17's currently and 9 are in almost completion stage so by March 2011 we will already have 30 JF-17's and will left with 20 aircrafts from block 1 ,by going with same pace at the end of 2011 we will roughly have 45 fighters as the current figures state 25 aircrafts per year. In early 2012 we will be done with block when then it will come to block 2 ,so it will not be much time to incorporate such high class tech in block 2

We might see these advancements in block 3

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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> Hasnain ,it will be highly unlikely ,we will see some of the J-20 tech in FC-20 but in Jf-17 it seems highly unlikely as we know that JF-17 was basically designed as a medium tech and low cost fighter .incorporating 5th generation tech in it will kill the purpose and the price will shoot up as we know 5th generation tech is very costly also when we are incorporating the 5th generation tech in FC-20 which are meant to be high-end fighters then why would we go for the same J-20 tech in jf-17 ,it will result in lot of similarities in FC-20 and jf-17 then.
> 
> block 2 will not be much enhanced version as compared to block1 as it will just be added with some of the basic things which are currently lacking in current jf-17 like IFR, IRST etc .
> 
> Also large chuck of Block 1 is completed ,we have 21 jf-17's currently and 9 are in almost completion stage so by March 2011 we will already have 30 JF-17's and will left with 20 aircrafts from block 1 ,by going with same pace at the end of 2011 we will roughly have 45 fighters as the current figures state 25 aircrafts per year. In early 2012 we will be done with block when then it will come to block 2 ,so it will not be much time to incorporate such high class tech in block 2
> 
> We might see these advancements in block 3



what i have posted was not my personal view but mostly sorted from the posts of senior posters (Munir and Pshamim). And it may make sense as well. 
1-JFT is not a medium tech fighter. looking at its expected service horizon, it cant afford to be. You dont expect to be flying a medium tech plane in 2020+. it was posted by nabil a while ago that even block 1 was at par with Grippen C/D models of 2002 and 2003. 
2-How much cost will add up if J-20/FC-20's system are incorporated? 30 million?, at max 40 Million?(almost 4 times the current cost) still very decent considering 60Million Falcon or Grippen. Having said that, I have kept my estimated very biased upwards as PAF may or will only incorporate certain subsystems, not the whole structure of J-20 which could be a costly thing.
3-firstly, they were talking about the improved KLJ-7 (ver II?) for JFT II (block II) and AESA for JFT UB (Ultimate Block III) but now munir sb is speculating AESA for block II. There must have been some developments, otherwise, I dont find him posting this like a fanboy

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## farhan_9909

Mani2020 said:


> Hasnain ,it will be highly unlikely ,we will see some of the J-20 tech in FC-20 but in Jf-17 it seems highly unlikely as we know that JF-17 was basically designed as a medium tech and low cost fighter .incorporating 5th generation tech in it will kill the purpose and the price will shoot up as we know 5th generation tech is very costly also when we are incorporating the 5th generation tech in FC-20 which are meant to be high-end fighters then why would we go for the same J-20 tech in jf-17 ,it will result in lot of similarities in FC-20 and jf-17 then.
> 
> block 2 will not be much enhanced version as compared to block1 as it will just be added with some of the basic things which are currently lacking in current jf-17 like IFR, IRST etc .
> 
> Also large chuck of Block 1 is completed ,we have 21 jf-17's currently and 9 are in almost completion stage so by March 2011 we will already have 30 JF-17's and will left with 20 aircrafts from block 1 ,by going with same pace at the end of 2011 we will roughly have 45 fighters as the current figures state 25 aircrafts per year. In early 2012 we will be done with block when then it will come to block 2 ,so it will not be much time to incorporate such high class tech in block 2
> 
> We might see these advancements in block 3



When i knew that JFT II will have a little improved Klj-7 this statement embrassed me infront of indians.

I used to say that JFT II will be on par with f-16 block 60 with AESA

2nd thing JfT at present dnt have full fly by wire,no HMD,No IRST,NO IFR,payload is nt 3.6ton bt it is 2 ton(empty weight 6400kg and loaded weight 9500KG),

with this modification.i dnt think JFT will be a good A2A fighter.

about cost if cost was the issue then PAF would nt have chosen the thales for the avionics/missile

just for 50 JFT pak was ready for paying 1.6Bn USD.32 million per each JFT.

including 12-15 million JFT cost.

So we can add some medium range AESA if option is available.

italy is ready to provide us their vixen..we should demand a little better and they can do this for us in 2 years


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## Mani2020

farhan_9909 said:


> When i knew that JFT II will have a little improved Klj-7 this statement embrassed me infront of indians.
> 
> I used to say that JFT II will be on par with f-16 block 60 with AESA
> 
> 2nd thing JfT at present dnt have full fly by wire,no HMD,No IRST,NO IFR,payload is nt 3.6ton bt it is 2 ton(empty weight 6400kg and loaded weight 9500KG),
> 
> with this modification.i dnt think JFT will be a good A2A fighter.
> 
> about cost if cost was the issue then PAF would nt have chosen the thales for the avionics/missile
> 
> *just for 50 JFT pak was ready for paying 1.6Bn USD.32 million per each JFT.
> *
> *including 12-15 million JFT cost.*
> 
> So we can add some medium range AESA if option is available.
> 
> italy is ready to provide us their vixen..we should demand a little better and they can do this for us in 2 years



No, it was costing less then 32million as you also have to exclude the price of current avionics which were to be replaced by french from this 15 million price tag.

Secondly the current klj-7 is on par with the french radar being offered as mentioned earlier .

The max take of weight is low because JFT is light weight fighter where as f-16's are medium weight fighters and Jf-17 is smaller in size when compared to others 

Chinese origin radar is also preferred in block-2 because of the integration of local missiles like RAAD and H2/h4, 

We will see AESA radar but my point was AESA radar will not be available so early so we might see them in block-3 rather then block-2 

And you can't expect everything from a new platform as it takes time, improvement will be done step by step , even the high-end fighters in light of Rafale .Gripen and EF-2000 don't have AESA radar.


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## alimobin memon

farhan_9909 said:


> When i knew that JFT II will have a little improved Klj-7 this statement embrassed me infront of indians.
> 
> I used to say that JFT II will be on par with f-16 block 60 with AESA
> 
> 2nd thing JfT at present dnt have full fly by wire,no HMD,No IRST,NO IFR,payload is nt 3.6ton bt it is 2 ton(empty weight 6400kg and loaded weight 9500KG),
> 
> with this modification.i dnt think JFT will be a good A2A fighter.
> 
> about cost if cost was the issue then PAF would nt have chosen the thales for the avionics/missile
> 
> just for 50 JFT pak was ready for paying 1.6Bn USD.32 million per each JFT.
> 
> including 12-15 million JFT cost.
> 
> So we can add some medium range AESA if option is available.
> 
> italy is ready to provide us their vixen..we should demand a little better and they can do this for us in 2 years



jf17 has fly by wire!!


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## araz

hasnain0099 said:


> what i have posted was not my personal view but mostly sorted from the posts of senior posters (Munir and Pshamim). And it may make sense as well.
> 1-JFT is not a medium tech fighter. looking at its expected service horizon, it cant afford to be. You dont expect to be flying a medium tech plane in 2020+. it was posted by nabil a while ago that even block 1 was at par with Grippen C/D models of 2002 and 2003.
> 2-How much cost will add up if J-20/FC-20's system are incorporated? 30 million?, at max 40 Million?(almost 4 times the current cost) still very decent considering 60Million Falcon or Grippen. Having said that, I have kept my estimated very biased upwards as PAF may or will only incorporate certain subsystems, not the whole structure of J-20 which could be a costly thing.
> 3-firstly, they were talking about the improved KLJ-7 (ver II?) for JFT II (block II) and AESA for JFT UB (Ultimate Block III) but now munir sb is speculating AESA for block II. There must have been some developments, otherwise, I dont find him posting this like a fanboy



If I may add a few points here. PAF, as we all know is not only cash strapped but its capability to bring about major changes to the JFT are limited. It therefore has to rely on chinese help if not totally then at least partially. We have 250 fighters which are already obsolete or facing obsolescence .As such our situation demands quick incorporation of 4th generation capabilities at the smartest price that we can manage.
Given the size of JFT, we can only incorporate few changes as making too many changes may require a newer engine and redesign which has financial implications. Whether we can get a higher thrust engine from a reliable source is something that needs to be seen. But if we want higher technological advantage why not buy J10, in the 2015-2020corridor to make up that deficiency.It makes a lot more sense as the chinese impetus would remain in favour of J10 rather than JFT.
As we have seen with other planes like M3/5 rose and PGs PAF has incorporated tech, like better radars and only minor changes to airframe to enhance the capabilites of these planes. I think this is what we will do. incorporate changes borrowed from J10 into JFTwhich are relatively cheaper to do so with minor downsizing, but avoid any major redesign which delays things and makes a good plane unreliable. People need to understand that all the tech that we need is in JFT at the moment. The price is what makes it such an attractive buy for all the nations, who cannot afford heavy expenditure on their defence. If tech comes along which improves the plane profile and is worth making the changes , we will do so ,but these will be few and minor ones.
One also needs to understand these changes from a purely financial aspect also. Irrespective of how many changes you make, your plane has a ceiling beyond which it will not improve. Going against a heavier plane like Su or Mig29/35 it will always be at a disadvantage. You can circumvent this disadvantage by a better BVR,WVR and better training, but you will llose a certain number of planes in a combat. In a defensive posture you will need a 1:3 ratio. Now even a 2:3 loss of JFT VS a SU at its current price of 15 million vs40 million is a viable option(30:120 million). But add another 15 million of gadgets and you wont change this equation any more in your favour . So all that will happen is your price to take down a SU goes up to 60 million, but you dont change this ratio.
The only way to change this ratio is to buy a plane that would improve your ratio to 1:3 or better and PAF is banking on FC20 to do this. In this perspective see why PAF has objected to the price of 40 million and wants to drive down the cost to around 25-30million.
This analysis is purely mine and people can add or take away from it but it seems that at some stage everything comes down to money. In this perspective see Indian decision not to take up the offer of F22/35 and instead rely on F50 in which it will have individual rights to manufacture which would drive the cost down and keep IAF sanction free.
Regards
Araz

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## SBD-3

araz said:


> If I may add a few points here. PAF, as we all know is not only cash strapped but its capability to bring about major changes to the JFT are limited. It therefore has to rely on chinese help if not totally then at least partially. We have 250 fighters which are already obsolete or facing obsolescence .As such our situation demands quick incorporation of 4th generation capabilities at the smartest price that we can manage.
> Given the size of JFT, we can only incorporate few changes as making too many changes may require a newer engine and redesign which has financial implications. Whether we can get a higher thrust engine from a reliable source is something that needs to be seen. But if we want higher technological advantage why not buy J10, in the 2015-2020corridor to make up that deficiency.It makes a lot more sense as the chinese impetus would remain in favour of J10 rather than JFT.
> As we have seen with other planes like M3/5 rose and PGs PAF has incorporated tech, like better radars and only minor changes to airframe to enhance the capabilities of these planes. I think this is what we will do. incorporate changes borrowed from J10 into JFTwhich are relatively cheaper to do so with minor downsizing, but avoid any major redesign which delays things and makes a good plane unreliable. People need to understand that all the tech that we need is in JFT at the moment. The price is what makes it such an attractive buy for all the nations, who cannot afford heavy expenditure on their defence. If tech comes along which improves the plane profile and is worth making the changes , we will do so ,but these will be few and minor ones.
> One also needs to understand these changes from a purely financial aspect also. Irrespective of how many changes you make, your plane has a ceiling beyond which it will not improve. Going against a heavier plane like Su or Mig29/35 it will always be at a disadvantage. You can circumvent this disadvantage by a better BVR,WVR and better training, but you will llose a certain number of planes in a combat. In a defensive posture you will need a 1:3 ratio. Now even a 2:3 loss of JFT VS a SU at its current price of 15 million vs40 million is a viable option(30:120 million). But add another 15 million of gadgets and you wont change this equation any more in your favour . So all that will happen is your price to take down a SU goes up to 60 million, but you dont change this ratio.
> The only way to change this ratio is to buy a plane that would improve your ratio to 1:3 or better and PAF is banking on FC20 to do this. In this perspective see why PAF has objected to the price of 40 million and wants to drive down the cost to around 25-30million.
> This analysis is purely mine and people can add or take away from it but it seems that at some stage everything comes down to money. In this perspective see Indian decision not to take up the offer of F22/35 and instead rely on F50 in which it will have individual rights to manufacture which would drive the cost down and keep IAF sanction free.
> Regards
> Araz



Agreed, as per Eagle Hannan, 
1-PAF has no intentions for redesigning the bird as the current configuration is optimized for flight performance 
A) Hard point deficiency is being met by using dual racks
B) There is only limited room kept in current structure (that too for only electronic and pod integration)so at current PAF has no plans for major redesigning (possibly not even JFT UB).
2- PAF is not integrating WS-13 into JFT as the time of WS-13 integration as per PAF, has already passed. Secondly, PAF is very impressed with RD-93/RD-33MK so it will stick with Russian engine (Chinese Version may use WS-13)
3- Munir Sahib also hinted towards the avionic part this also affirms hannan's post
4- 25-30 Million, IMHO would not be the price for PAF (though it might be the offer price for PLAAF since they funded J-10) considering the expected systems (PAF official did indicate that Bl-52 may not be the most advanced bird in PAF inventory in years to come) 25-30 Mio is too low. Hannan did mention that PAF is getting a very generous deal (may be Full ToT, Soft loan or as you said reduced price) but has not explained it.
5-I agree that there is a limit for up gradation but JFT,-in its current configuration- can afford a lot better, I am not talking about the airframe but putting up some more advanced systems in it, upgradation should be the way as its no rocket science that 1 high tech aircraft can deal with its adversary much better than 3 low tech/low capability aircrafts so a minor investment on JFT for incorporating better systems and weapons would be much better than adding up another weak thunder.


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## localoca

its this a FC-20 or an early prototype of a J-10?..


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## krash

localoca said:


> its this a FC-20 or an early prototype of a J-10?..




Thats an X-31. It was made for the U.S.NASA-German Rockwell-Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm X-31 VECTOR Enhanced Fighter Maneuverability program to experiment with thrust vectoring.

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## localoca

krash said:


> Thats an X-31. It was made for the U.S.NASA-German Rockwell-Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm X-31 VECTOR Enhanced Fighter Maneuverability program to experiment with thrust vectoring.


so will the J-10 have TV...


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## SBD-3

localoca said:


> so will the J-10 have TV...


 
its not confirmed yet that FC-20 will have TVC Engine. However, some Chinese posters indicated early generation of WS-15 for J-10B (FC-20) which yet, remains to be confirmed.


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## abaseen99



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## siegecrossbow

Fan made CG animation of J-10bs fighting what appears to be Go'auld Death gliders.

maya71_[

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## ANG

Hi, this is an interesting development, conformal fuel tanks being developed for the FC-20/J-10. Take care.

Chinese J-10 Fighter With Conformal Fuel Tanks CFT's In Wind Tunnel Testing ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

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## abdulbarijan

Now i wasn't completely satisfied by the answers given in the indian section so i decided that we should discuss it here since it concerns both india and pakistan 

FC-20 vs MMRCA (Rafale or Typhoon)
Radar:-





Mr.Prins says the most key features of the super viper features when it comes to the jet capability
-AESA radar
Now according to wikipedia 
Typhoon has the
Euroradar CAPTOR which although does have an AESA varient at present but is not used in the typhoon but is intended to replace Captor in the future.
mean while the rafale has the
RBE2(PESA)

So the question now being will the Indian MMRCA jet (euorofighter or rafale) feature an AESA ???
According to Mr.Prins the difference b/w the super viper and other MMRCA aircrafts was the AESA..

FC-20 on the other hand will have an AESA as the redesigned jet has a longer nose cone
pic of J-10B with longer nose cone 

Maneuverability:-

Now currently Rafale neither the typhoon does have TVC (according to my info so plz correct if the fact is otherwise)

FC-20 is rumored to have a new engine with TVC

Stealth:-

Now lets compare stealth capabilities

the rafale uses extensive composite materials and serrated patterns on the trailing edges of the wings and canards to help reduce the radar cross section (RCS)

The euorotyphoon although not designated a stealth fighter, measures were taken to reduce the Typhoon's radar cross section (RCS), especially from the frontal aspect. An example of these measures is that the Typhoon has jet inlets that conceal the front of the jet engine (a strong radar target) from radar. Many important potential radar targets, such as the wing, canard and fin leading edges, are highly swept, so will reflect radar energy well away from the front sector. Some external weapons are mounted semi-recessed into the aircraft, partially shielding these missiles from incoming radar waves. In addition radar absorbent materials (RAM) developed primarily by EADS/DASA coat many of the most significant reflectors, e.g. the wing leading edges, the intake edges and interior, the rudder surrounds, strakes, etc. The Typhoon does not use internal storage of weapons. External mounting points are used instead, which increases its radar cross section but allows for more and larger stores.

But FC-20 has DSI intakes which are more stealthy,extensive use of composites and ram so it should be safe to say that J-10 B is the most stealthiest amongst the three...

This is just a lame attempt to put the thread in the direction of FC-20 in terms of how effective will it be when going up against one of the MMRCA aircrafts which according to this vid are typhoon or rafale

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## SQ8

For starters any attempt to flame by ANYBODY here instead of a logical post will lead to a ban..ive had it upto here with messed up vs threads.

Now..
lets take the above in one by one.

*Radar*:
The Fc-20 is based on the J-10.. and since we are generally well acquainted with the J-10's radar.. the KJL-10.. it can be a safe assumption that any AESA designed by the Chinese would be based on this line up(if the Chinese follow a stepwise tech tree). We dont have much on the the way of the KJL-10's capabilities but the ones for the KJL-7 are somewhat know.. and as we have read here and I have heard.. the PAF is quite satisfied with the radar.. 
therefore. The KJL-10 cannot be anything less than the KJL-7. The Chinese have just stepped into the realm of AESA.. so it remains to be seen what path they chose to follow.. The Russians also use AESA.. yet theirs is still based on slightly primitive chipsets. resulting in larger (if more powerful) T/R modules. The Americans have relied on miniaturization and their AESA antenna are made up of no less than a 1000-1500 T/R modules compared to the russians more modest 600-800. So while Russian radars can see further... they are less precise.
Come to the Chinese.. Their initial approach was to reverse engineer or emulate Russian designs.. a quick way of getting things done.
After the 90's and the computer boom..they changed their approach considerably.. they have adapted technology much more comprehensively than the west has.. and they want to use it everywhere they can. Thus while the Chinese AESA may have elements of Russian designs.. its processors are going to be based on western ideas.
Just how effective this AESA will be.. cant be quantified now.

The MMRCA AESA's.. well..the American ones are battle tested.. and come from a rich pedigree of radars.. The Russians.. too have operational AESA's.. albeit less capable than the Americans.. The European AESA's have not been tested..and are still in the pipeline.

*Maneuverability*:

With the advent of 5th gen missiles..which will equip both the MMRCA and FC-20.. the need for turning superiority.. in the knife fight is diminishing at a rapid rate.. unless a new kind of counter measure is found.. most fights in the WVR wont be too long.. either it will be a fire and run and expect a kill..or fire, get killed.. maybe the other guy got killed as well. In this case...its the one who can point the nose..or in today's HMS environment.. point the head at the target quicker.. which means the two guy philosophy will have the upper edge.. where one can concentrate on flying and the other can make the kill. If however..there is a need to point the nose for a kill...
Then it comes down to instantaneous turn rates.. in which case.. the Eurocanards..and the FC-20 both are equally matched..on aerodynamics..
add TVC..then it comes down to raw power.. since the aerodynamic part takes a back seat.
Right now...apart from the Mig-35.. all other jets apart from the Americans offer TVC as part of a roadmap..
There are speculations about TVC on the J-10..nothing more.
So when it comes to maneuverability.. Ill go with even.

*Stealth*:

each of the competitors in the MMRCA competition offer reduced RCS from the "standard" model. Out of which.. the Superhornet is clearly showing the upper hand in moving for a complete RCS solution.. 
the Rafale's RCS reduction is still very 90's.. the Eurofighter offers the least frontal RCS or so it claims.. using canard control..which the Chinese have adapted already.. That leaves the F-16..which has all the "have glass" improvements built in.. is still a little behind the SH and the eurocanards.. the Mig is dead last in this arena.
the FC-20 however...has taken all that is best in each of them.. and another bit that isnt..and merged them into its design..
while DSI isnt exactly a magic wand.. it is easy for even a casual enthusiast to realize that it offers benefits in terms of engine blade concealment.
Use of extensive composite's and honeycomb structures in the FC-20's design have been claimed on Chinese forums.. for now.. I can only confirm the composites.. 
What will be the final RCS(sorry gambit.. I know its variable..but we something to go on).. probably somewhere in the range of the eurofighter and the Rafale.


I am ignoring the weapons fit on the aircraft...as per the post's format..
But in a one on one scenario..the FC-20 would be able to hold its own in a fight with any of the above MMRCA.. 
but its rarely that way.. in air combat between our nation's the future. Most view it as a fast high paced mixup.. 
In that case.. the pilots having the most situational awareness would be having the edge.
if the MMRCA goes West..and it will.. the bar will be very high for the FC-20 to beat.

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## abaseen99

Chinese J-10 Fighter With Conformal Fuel Tanks CFT's In Wind Tunnel Testing ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS



in pic shows one is j 10b while another one fc 20 whats defferents......?

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## Jungibaaz

abaseen99 said:


> Chinese J-10 Fighter With Conformal Fuel Tanks CFT's In Wind Tunnel Testing ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS
> 
> 
> 
> in pic shows one is j 10b while another one fc 20 whats defferents......?



J-10B is a variant of J-10, FC-20 is an export variant of J-10B tailored for the PAF.
and i must say, i'm in love with the pic of the FC-20

The FC-20 is a twin seater, with CFTs and other goodies in that pic

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## TOPGUN

Can't wait to see our first fc-20 inshallah will be some sight..


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## nightcrawler

In the film namely Tomorrow.When.The.War.Began.2010. which are the three planes that are following single Australian plane?? Those to me look like J10s & the plane being followed either a F-18/15??


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## Fieldmarshal

nightcrawler said:


> In the film namely Tomorrow.When.The.War.Began.2010. which are the three planes that are following single Australian plane?? Those to me look like J10s & the plane being followed either a F-18/15??


 
J-10 following and shoots down a F-18.

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## houshanghai

Y8CA 079 radar testbed (j10B AESA)






link;http://www.top81.cn/top81bbs/thread.php?cid=1&rootid=2799667&id=2800320
old pic

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## applesauce

houshanghai said:


> Y8CA 079 radar testbed (j10B AESA)


 
this may be kinda a dumb question but what are the lines between the tail and the front of the aircraft do?


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## SBD-3

houshanghai said:


> Y8CA 079 radar testbed (j10B AESA)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> link;¶¦Ê¢ÂÛÌ³ ¾üÊÂÌìµØ ÔÎ~~ÄÇÍ¼ÄãÃÇ¶¼Ã»¿´µ½°¡£¿£¡
> old pic


 
interesting indeed,








and the latest update is


> A single Y-8C transport aircraft (serial #079) was converted into a radar testbed by XAC as Y-8CA. It has been used exclusively by China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) at Yanliang to test various airborne radar and related equipment. The most noticeable feature is a modular radome section which replaced the old Tu-16 style glass nosecone. Radomes in different shapes and sizes (pointed vs. blunt) can be adoped depending on the type of radar antenna being tested. The Y-8CA radar testbed first flew in August 1999 and was believed to have been involved in several key fighter and fighter bomber projects (e.g. J-10, J-11B & JH-7A). The aircarft also served as the testbed for the new JL-4 6-blade high-efficiency propeller installed on its #1 engine. The new properller has been adopted by the Y-8 Type III platform (KJ-200 & ZDK-03). Currently Y-8CA is testing the AESA radar of J-10B.
> Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force


here are two pix for good comparison


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## wangwei11607



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## Manticore

one of the best images


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## lemurian

applesauce said:


> this may be kinda a dumb question but what are the lines between the tail and the front of the aircraft do?


 
radio antenna

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## wangwei11607

First exposure of old photos


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## fatman17

Monday, February 21, 2011

The present and the future direction of J-10 

As readers of this blog probably know, I have been a fan of J-10 for a long time. In many ways, the J-10 project marked a turning point in Chinese military aviation industry. When its development first started in 1986, the Chinese aviation industry was constantly abandoning new development projects due to lack of funding, technology and development experience. China was forced to go the conservative route and continue to develop J-7 and J-8 variants. Many J-7 and J-8 variants were delayed due to delays in avionics, engine and missile projects. With the exception of J-8, China had not successfully developed a fighter jet since the Soviet split. The J-10 projects succeeded in large part because China finally opened up itself to the West. The help that China received from Israel is well documented. However, I would say that another important help to J-10 and all recent aviation projects is the improved manufacturing capability, improved funding, access to advanced civilian technology and improved project management that came through the trade liberalization. For example, how would companies like NRIET be able to develop radar and avionics for PLA if China did not become competitive in the electronics industry? After 18 years of hard work by CAC, J-10 finally achieved operational status in 2004. With the success of the J-10 projects and advancement in civilian industry, we have seen a lot more stories of successes in Chinese military aviation industry in the recent years. I have read some real praises recently toward the aerospace engineers at CAC about their youthfulness and energy. I don't think we would've seen something like J-20 come out this soon, if CAC did not gain so much experience from the J-10 program.

Back when J-10 first came out, there were a lot of skepticism about its capabilities and deployment status. Even though the first J-10 regiment achieved operational status by 2004, many people questioned its status until it was officially declassified in late 2006. At the same time, I read many reports about its successes in exercises against different flanker variants. Most people were rightfully skeptical toward such reports. As time went on, it became more and more obvious that J-10 was taken over the reign as the backbone of PLAAF from flankers. Even now, we still often read reports about J-10s crushing flankers and J-8s in different training exercises. Even with all of its successes, the J-10 program still has experienced some stumbles along the way. I think most people would agree that propulsion is the biggest bottleneck for J-10. Due to lack of available domestic options and the Western arms embargo, China was forced to select AL-31FN as the powerplant. After the initial batch for J-10 prototypes, China has since placed orders for batches of 54, 100 and 122 AL-31FN engines for production variants. Many of us thought WS-10A might be available after the second batch of engines, but its production problems in the past 2 years have been well documented. As a result, China had to make that third purchase in 2009 for 122 AL-31FN costing $500 million. Due to the delays in WS-10A, J-10 production basically came to a standstill for most of 2008 and early part of 2009. Although, it is believed that some of the first product batch of J-10s delivered to 44th division were brought back to CAC to be upgraded to the latest configurations. From the first 154 AL-31FNs, CAC delivered J-10s for FTTC (60x8x), 131st regiment of 44th division (50x5x), 8th regiment of 3rd division (10x4x), 5th regiment of 2nd division (10x3x) and 2nd regiment of 1st division (10x2x). After signing the 3rd AL-31FN contract, CAC produced a 4th batch of J-10s to 70th regiment of 24th division (30x5x) and the special August First flight demonstration squad of 24th division. In this past year of 2010, CAC produced a 5th batch of J-10s of 37 single seaters + a good number of twin-seaters to fully convert the 25th regiment of 9th division (20x0x) and a good portion of the 12th regiment of 4th PLANAF division (83x4x). Since late last year, we have started seeing test trials of a 6th batch of J-10s from CAC. This batch will most likely be delivered to fill the 12th regiment of PLANAF and also convert a new PLAAF regiment. I think this will be the last batch of J-10s that can be produced from the third AL-31FN contract. Here is a breakdown of production J-10s at the moment:

6 PLAAF regiments (28 J-10s each &#61664; 6 x 28 = 168)
12 J-10s serving in the August First demonstration squad
Around 16 J-10s serving in the FTTC aggressor squad
10 to 20 J-10s serving in the 12th regiment of PLANAF
So, my guess is that there are around 200 to 220 J-10s in service at the moment for different branches of PLAAF and PLANAF.

So, where does the J-10 program go from here? Some fans are already gushing over the first flight of J-20 and about ready to stop J-10 production very soon. Some question whether or not J-10B is needed at all. I definitely think those talks are crazy. China will have many J-7 regiments retiring in the coming years. I think some regiments will not be replaced, but PLAAF also does not want the fleet to shrink that much. I have brought up the talk of using JF-17 to fill a good number of the third tier regiments, but J-10s are still needed to replace more strategically located J-7 regiments. CAC has shown that it can mass produce J-10s at relatively low cost of less than 200 million RMB. Until J-20 joins service, J-10 and J-11 will form the core of PLAAF. Even though J-10 is smaller and cheaper than J-11, it has been the more capable air defense fighter jet. Therefore, even after J-20 becomes available, J-10 should still be continually produced. As we saw with J-7, CAC kept producing newer variants for PLAAF until at least 2007 even though J-10 was already operational with several regiments. So I think different variants of J-10s will be produced for the foreseeable future. In the immediate future, CAC will finish the 6th batch of J-10s to fully convert the 12th regiment of PLANAF and possibly fully convert another PLAAF regiment. I think this should be the end of J-10/A production run (about 240 to 250 using 276 AL-31FNs). 

After this point, I think the production should shift to J-10Bs. We&#8217;ve seen the Y-8 radar test bed recently testing with what appears to be the nose of J-10B, so all signs are pointing toward J-10B production starting sometimes late this year or early next year. As stated before, J-10B should represent quite an improvement over J-10A when it comes to new avionics architecture, latest range of sensors (AESA radar, IRST and MAWs), new generation of MMI and more integrated EW installations. It should also have better multi-role capability and be able to fire all of the latest generation of AAMs, AGMs and PGMs (many shown in Zhuhai Airshow). The other question with J-10B and future J-10 variants is how it will move into the future world of stealth fighters. Clearly, future J-10 variants can be designed to have reduced signature like hornets to super hornets or eagle to silent eagle, but it cannot be redesigned into a LO aircraft. In fact, we are already seeing some greater consideration for stealth on J-10B when it comes to greater usage of composite material, integrated IRST/ECM, LPI radar and adoption of DSI inlet (although this could be more of a weight/subsonic performance vs supersonic performance tradeoff). There are also plenty of claims on Chinese forums that J-10B has also adopted plasma stealth, but I do not know how I can verify that. The other question is what engine will be used by future J-10s. Will China make a new large order for AL-31FN or will WS-10 series finally reach acceptable performance/reliability level to be installed on J-10B? We will have to keep the wait and see approach to find out. I would say that at least one more order of AL-31FNs is needed before WS-10 can become ready for both J-10 and J-11.

And finally, we should also see more export deals with J-10 in the coming years. As we&#8217;ve seen in numerous reports, PAF will be the first export customer for J-10, although we don&#8217;t know the exact configuration yet. After Pakistan, J-10 will probably be offered to most countries around the world. It will actually be interesting to see how that will affect JF-17&#8217;s export prospects, since most potential export customers would only select one of the two fighters. China will also not be able to export to many countries until WS-10 becomes a viable engine option. 
Posted by Feng

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## Riz

New Pictures of J-10B

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## Kompromat

^Very old in fact.


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## Mani2020

Hui Tong's Chinese military aviation has update on J10B saying PAF has placed order for 36 units in Feb 2011

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## fatman17

Mani2020 said:


> Hui Tong's Chinese military aviation has update on J10B saying PAF has placed order for 36 units in Feb 2011



we know that a MoU has been signed for 36 examples and PAF has 'finalised' its requirements and provided the same to the chinese. a formal agreement and terms are to be finalised and signed - the deal will be worth in excess of USD 1 billion, so the MoD/PAF have to find/allocate funds starting 2013-14 for this program.

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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> we know that a MoU has been signed for 36 examples and PAF has 'finalised' its requirements and provided the same to the chinese. a formal agreement and terms are to be finalised and signed - the deal will be worth in excess of USD 1 billion, so the MoD/PAF have to find/allocate funds starting 2013-14 for this program.


Hannan was saying that the deliveries will start from Mid 2013. If i assume, he meant June, July 2013 then as Fiscal year prevails, the funding would either already have been allocated or will be allocated in FY-2012-2013 i.e. Current Year Post July


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## fatman17

hasnain0099 said:


> Hannan was saying that the deliveries will start from Mid 2013. If i assume, he meant June, July 2013 then as Fiscal year prevails, the funding would either already have been allocated or will be allocated in FY-2012-2013 i.e. Current Year Post July



china can only export the J-10 with a chinese engine!


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## Beast

fatman17 said:


> china can only export the J-10 with a chinese engine!


 
I think Chinese has already think of that problem and has no problem exporting J-10. They even once demonstrate J-10 to a group of Serbia delegates who are intend to procure new fighter jet for their Airforce. In fact, CAC are also quite active in promoting J-10 for export.

With WS-10A going so well for J-11b so far. I think its a matter of time, J-10 will be fitted with domestic engine. And 2013 is still 2 years time. More than enough time to test out the WS-10A on J-10 and mature it.

Chinese has all the time prove everybody they do plan things before hand when organising a project. Remember those doubter claim JF-17 project will be stall becos Russian will refuse export of RD-93 engine to Pakistan and claim China has bad project management.. In the end , what happen?


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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> china can only export the J-10 with a chinese engine!


 
not necessary, Pakistan is not a direct customer of Russia, like JFT case. So there will be a minimal resistence from russia as far as Pakistan is concerned. This may be different for other countries who are buyers of Russian equipment like Egypt, Malaysia, Indonesia and Bangladesh etc. Thats probably a reason why yet there is no confirmed exports contract of JFT (the problem with WS-13) as i can recall the post


> According to Airforce people, we can not invest on an Engine we can not upgrade within its physical dimentions. WS series engine is so far not ready and I believe has some kind of set backs due to which some RD93+ like RD33MK version displayed as model in Zhuhai airshow might be the upgrade. The PAF person said, the time for WS engine incorporation has come and gone on JF-17s. We are happy with current Engine.* May be Chinese mature the Engine in a couple of years but by then we'll be operating the russian Engine in numbers*. The joint license manufacturing of RD93 did not materialize with China and Russia because *Chinese are very much concerned with the JD10s engine. It is also expected to be russian AL-31FN for coming years.*


 So since WS-10A stil has considerable time to go, it is highly likely that at least the inital batch due in 2013 will be with AL-31F. China though has started to market J-10 for export but engines are the critical bottlenecks in export potential.


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## mil-avia

New J-10 diagrams and photos in Tiexue (part 1) :


































[?]???10?? C ? 


J-10 - Tiexue - Minus


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## mil-avia

New J-10 diagrams and photos in Tiexue (part 2) :


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## mil-avia

New J-10 diagrams and photos in Tiexue (part 3) :

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## mil-avia

New J-10 diagrams and photos in Tiexue (part 4) :

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## fatman17

hasnain0099 said:


> not necessary, Pakistan is not a direct customer of Russia, like JFT case. So there will be a minimal resistence from russia as far as Pakistan is concerned. This may be different for other countries who are buyers of Russian equipment like Egypt, Malaysia, Indonesia and Bangladesh etc. Thats probably a reason why yet there is no confirmed exports contract of JFT (the problem with WS-13) as i can recall the post
> So since WS-10A stil has considerable time to go, it is highly likely that at least the inital batch due in 2013 will be with AL-31F. China though has started to market J-10 for export but engines are the critical bottlenecks in export potential.



that is your opinion based on JFT. remember china had to take 'permission' to use the RD-33 engine for overseas sales. so far there is no indication of china requesting the russians for use of the AL-31 for pakistan's order. chinese exports are a 'threat' to russia esp. the turmoil taking place in the ME which is a major market for them.

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## cloneman

fatman17 said:


> that is your opinion based on JFT. remember china had to take 'permission' to use the RD-33 engine for overseas sales. so far there is no indication of china requesting the russians for use of the AL-31 for pakistan's order. chinese exports are a 'threat' to russia esp. the turmoil taking place in the ME which is a major market for them.


AL-31FN is not in the J-10s future plan.The CAC will push the J10 and FC1 export since it already had the J20 card.It can provide different exporting pakages with various combinations of engines and electronic warfairs.Those who claimed the Chinese engine issue apparentlly didnt notice that the WS10A already runs on the J11B for two years and the WS10G is fitted on the J20 for its maiden flight.The near future toppest J10 variant which also called FC20 will fit with the WS10G.

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## S-A-B-E-R->

houshanghai said:


> Y8CA 079 radar testbed (j10B AESA)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> link;¶¦Ê¢ÂÛÌ³ ¾üÊÂÌìµØ ÔÎ~~ÄÇÍ¼ÄãÃÇ¶¼Ã»¿´µ½°¡£¿£¡
> old pic


 
there was somthing similar with f35 project wasent it?


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## S-A-B-E-R->

abaseen99 said:


> Chinese J-10 Fighter With Conformal Fuel Tanks CFT's In Wind Tunnel Testing ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS
> 
> 
> 
> in pic shows one is j 10b while another one fc 20 whats defferents......?


 
i have asked this question like a hundred times look at the pic the fc20 do not have an aesa ?why?


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## farhan_9909

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> i have asked this question like a hundred times look at the pic the fc20 do not have an aesa ?why?


 
saw the picture before in different background colour

i wonder why the J-10B in the picture has aesa why nt the FC-20?

i thought FC-20 means J-10B


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## S-A-B-E-R->

farhan_9909 said:


> saw the picture before in different background colour
> 
> i wonder why the J-10B in the picture has aesa why nt the FC-20?
> 
> i thought FC-20 means J-10B


 
yah i m confused too


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## fatman17

cloneman said:


> AL-31FN is not in the J-10s future plan.The CAC will push the J10 and FC1 export since it already had the J20 card.It can provide different exporting pakages with various combinations of engines and electronic warfairs.Those who claimed the Chinese engine issue apparentlly didnt notice that the WS10A already runs on the J11B for two years and the WS10G is fitted on the J20 for its maiden flight.The near future toppest J10 variant which also called FC20 will fit with the WS10G.



sounds good but very speculative - unfortunately the weak-link in chinese a/c is the chinese maufactured engines. dont get me wrong, i wld love to see quick progress made by the chinese in this segment - its a few years away!


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## Manticore

lavi/j10 some new design comparisons








navalized j10 proposal
http://dc122.*******.com/img/bTnA1GTf/0.8991551799357959/127964441502001044.jpg
http://dc306.*******.com/img/5zXLvyG9/0.39878518765871085/7_online.JPG

http://dc122.*******.com/img/40q0PfKs/0.9275910872305669/6d240627d155.jpg

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## nightcrawler

AntiBody as a suggestion I would recommend tinypic.com for hosting image files


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## Manticore

ive misplaced the page where i kept my username / passwords of some other image sharing sites-- so im using the one i primarilyremembered for fat burning books! -- however it [4 shared] makes small thumbnails, so helps in loading the page , i guess


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## Kompromat

nightcrawler said:


> AntiBody as a suggestion I would recommend tinypic.com for hosting image files


 
Sign up with Picasa.


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## nightcrawler

Black Blood said:


> Sign up with Picasa.


If you are using Firefox; Using PixelPipe add-on will make you able to directly upload images to your tinypic account from any webpage

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## houshanghai



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## alimobin memon

houshanghai said:


>


 
is that edited!!!


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## farhan_9909

alimobin memon said:


> is that edited!!!


 
without any doubt

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## Manticore

navalized j10b version in these models -- looks like this isnt merely a rumour...


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## fatman17

houshanghai said:


>



looks nice! will be reality in 2014-15

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## truthseeker2010

Does J-10B have a better payload capacity than the current J-10?


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## DANGER-ZONE

> * The latest rumor (February 2011) suggested that Pakistan AF has ordered a number of J-10Bs but this has not been confirmed. *
> _Last Updated 2/25/11_


Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force


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## Manticore

houshanghai said:


>


 
http://dc207.*******.com/img/-UHSQi1d/27_152464_c1a6cfc2ef771f7.jpg[URL=http://www.*******.com/photo/9XWXhLfl/j10b_PAF.html][IMG]http://dc281.*******.com/img/9XWXhLfl/j10b_PAF.jpg[/URL]

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## Manticore

http://dc231.*******.com/img/ay_Lnyu7/0.30121177948966094/HAMALYASJ10.jpg






weapons of knowledge published on November 97, the imagination of a J10 map





Google Translate


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## abdulbarijan




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## araz

fatman17 said:


> looks nice! will be reality in 2014-15


 
The main question is whether the engine issue will be resolved by then. I have a funny feeling PAF is not taking any chances and trying to get as many F16s as possible just in case there is a delay. However, the way the chinese industry is going, i would actually be surprised if they did not have a viable engine for J10B by 2014-15.
Araz


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## DANGER-ZONE

^ in such case, Russia will be providing engines for J-10b just like they did for Jf-17  
As the total no on order yet not disclosed and if in case Chinese engine won't be ready. then ordering greater no of Fc-20 = equal or more quantity of Russian engines = MORE MONEY = Russia will be agreed


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## TOPGUN

Man i really like the way the fc-20 looks can't wait till PAF gets it.


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## Machoman

I don't like j10 only j10bs looks nice.


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## SBD-3

araz said:


> The main question is whether the engine issue will be resolved by then. I have a funny feeling PAF is not taking any chances and trying to get as many F16s as possible just in case there is a delay. However, the way the chinese industry is going, i would actually be surprised if they did not have a viable engine for J10B by 2014-15.
> Araz


Haven you seen J-20 proto 2002? It is using a brand new engine and would have been mature enough that Chinese put it up in the back of J-20. It has been speculated many times in Chinese fora that J-10B for PAF will have baseline WS-15 (some say WS-10G) so as there is a very good chance that this engine has been in service for small time (otherwise no one would be willing to risk an off the assembly engine straight into most critical design). secondly what makes me sure is the fact that Whushan is the one working on WS-15 not the Tihang which is rolling out WS-10X series.


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## araz

danger-zone said:


> ^ in such case, Russia will be providing engines for J-10b just like they did for Jf-17
> As the total no on order yet not disclosed and if in case Chinese engine won't be ready. then ordering greater no of Fc-20 = equal or more quantity of Russian engines = MORE MONEY = Russia will be agreed


 
If that had been the case why is J10 not in our inventory now? The fact that inspite of liking J10s and even offering the chinese to by the As as well as Bs we have not gone ahead , means there are problems with the sale. The only thing that I can think of is the engine.
Araz

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## SBD-3

araz said:


> If that had been the case why is J10 not in our inventory now? The fact that inspite of liking J10s and even offering the chinese to by the As as well as Bs we have not gone ahead , means there are problems with the sale. The only thing that I can think of is the engine.
> Araz


let me repost eaglehannan's post here to weed out doubts about J-10 deal or delay or why not A version and why B version


> Munir has rightly said "It more like you show confidence and commit to the cause." All companies work like it. Chinese business mentality is as such, they want to know before selling if they'll get money or not. It simple plain business. They knew once the funds are allocated to F-16s there is a little chance Pakistan will jump in on J-10B. PAF at that time was not confident on J-10 as a top tier AC. But once Chinese allowed us in on design and avionics, PAF did cut orders for F-16s. I remember when early J-10 cockpit pictures were released, we all concluded that it&#8217;s no better than JF-17 and then near exact layout was brought in on J-10s later since Pakistan committed to J-10B.
> Sir, for J-10s Pakistan is given very generous deal, inshallah I'll write about it when I am permitted to. I must commend Chinese for their business ideas. They knew Pakistan back in 2005/6 is not interested in J-10s and that simply means no market for J-10 outside China as the world sees Pakistan as the launch customer of anything good coming from China. Examples are J6/F-6, J7/F-7, J7MGs/F-7PG and inshallah FC-1/JF-17s. There was no sales of JH-7 and J-8MII, even when they were offered to many and are serving PLAAF in numbers.
> I think, it was PakDef where back in 2006, I wrote that there is serious evaluation of J-10 going on. PAF saw the potential and wanted R&D with Chinese on another version of partially same air frame but improved avionics. PAF brought in their info on an F-16 version avionics that was to be unveiled in Middle East. In fact the RFP sent to LM was forwarded to Chinese with minor changes (That&#8217;s not my assumption or speculation).
> As per Allah's will and thankfully it was in a good way that we finally decided to peal away from US dependence. I can imagine if we would have put our eggs in US basket, what would have been the situation today. "Never again" was rightly exercised.
> Right now, the planned acquisition of J-10B's first batch is in mid of 2013 Inshallah. Engine is a hurdle (this is my speculation). We might not want to go for AL31FN and as per my info WS-10 is not failed but having teething problems, bad ones. Other than that, I confirm the engine is built with high grade materials and new labs are being built to check the manufacturing process for it. This shows commitment and promise. Some PAF personal visiting these labs told me, they are impressed. Nanjing institute is prime contractor for Radar (both Air born and AD. AD team is here already and inshallah we'll see some joint project in AD as well)for PAF.


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## ChineseTiger1986

houshanghai said:


> SKY FIGHTER (J10 movie&#65289;


 
The director of the movie has been confirmed to make a J-20 movie later.

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## S-A-B-E-R->

houshanghai said:


> SKY FIGHTER (J10 movie&#65289;


 
holy s@$it a cobera menuvor lol.any way they shuld make a movie with PAF abt J 10b and JF 17 it ll be fun

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## S10

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The director of the movie has been confirmed to make a J-20 movie later.


Fcuk no, watching the trailer almost made me puke. Most Chinese directors doing military films need to be beaten, tortured then decapitated. All records of their filming need to be burned with a flamethrower.


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## tanlixiang28776

S10 said:


> Fcuk no, watching the trailer almost made me puke.


 
I tried watching it but I couldn't either. Chinese dramas are so melodramatic these days


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## ChineseTiger1986

S10 said:


> Fcuk no, watching the trailer almost made me puke. Most Chinese directors doing military films need to be beaten, tortured then decapitated. All records of their filming need to be burned with a flamethrower.


 
The CGI of the AEW&C looks so shitty and i would be happy if they can keep the special effect as good as the raptors in the Iron Man movie.

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## Manticore

tanlixiang28776 said:


> I tried watching it but I couldn't either. Chinese dramas are so melodramatic these days


 
you havent watched our punjabi movies yet...

however the special effects of the airbattles werent good

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## houshanghai

J10B

















PLAN J10AS






PLAAF J10A





PLAAF J10AS


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## houshanghai

PLAAF FIGHTER





PAF AND PLAAF J7MG


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## Irfan Baloch

S10 said:


> Fcuk no, watching the trailer almost made me puke. Most Chinese directors doing military films need to be beaten, tortured then decapitated. All records of their filming need to be burned with a flamethrower.


 
thats a bit of an over reaction I think.


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## araz

hasnain0099 said:


> let me repost eaglehannan's post here to weed out doubts about J-10 deal or delay or why not A version and why B version


 
Hasnain
I am aware of Eagle Hannan posts on pakdef.info and accept the value of these posts. bUT READ WHAT HE HAS SAID ABOUT THE ENGINE. Talk to MuradK saheb, and see what he has to say. I can only say that PAF had offered to buy both A and B versions, but engine issue remains a hurdle. If you know how many yrs it takes to sort out the reliability of the engine then you will see that we have not yet reached the stage where PAF will have faith in the WS10, or other chinese engine. Otherwise believe me we would have switched over to WS13 by now. There are ongoing trials and WS10 is still not considered reliable enough for PAF to gamble its future on it. J10B is a lovely plane and PAF would love to have its hands on it, but only once it is happy with all aspects of the plane and PAF will not take on a half baked cake. Also remember that J10B will enter in PLAAF service before it comes into PAF service, although you hear quite a few things about different varients. PAF just cant afford to take on a plane which has not entered PLAAF service, one example being the sale of JF17 to PLAAF, not for anything else but for purely financial reasons that the cost of developments become less as the number of planes become more. J10 will if required have all the frills including CFTs as the chinese will want to ensure that PAF never looks towards USA for a fighter plane again. Plus it would ensure that the loiter time for the plane increases even more. personally it makes sense to me. J10 is PLAAF premier plane and they would want to have all the frills to go with it. 
Araz

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## Tiger Awan

@ ^^^

+ it will be better for us to work with one aircraft at a time. Pilot training, infrastructure etc.

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## Rafi

Godless-Kafir said:


> Why cant Pakistan ask for F-22? India spent so much time with USSR and Russia and now we have so much trust that we do JVs with them but Pakistan spent 60years with US and you should demand the F-22 or JSF!


 
Godless bas*ard has been reincarnated.

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## truthseeker2010

Does the J-10B has more payload capacity than the A Variant?


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## AwA.

Does anyone has seen the video of J-10B flying? I have seen many pictures but not a single video so far.


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## AwA.

Payload capacity can be increased (without compromising the agility) by reducing the weight of the airframe and using more powerful engine. We do not have any official details about the payload capacity of J-10B, but since it is a common belief that J-10B will incorporate increased percentage of Composite materials in the airframe and Maybe a higher thrust engine therefore we can conclude it will have better payload capacity as compared to the J-10A. I will repeat again that this is pure assumption there is no official specification available.


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## siegecrossbow

truthseeker2010 said:


> Does the J-10B has more payload capacity than the A Variant?


 
J-10B will have superior air to ground capabilities so yes I would expect greater payload capacity.

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## fatman17

siegecrossbow said:


> J-10B will have superior air to ground capabilities so yes I would expect greater payload capacity.



how so?
same airframe and under-wing hard points!


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## AwA.

fatman17 said:


> how so?
> same airframe and under-wing hard points!


Multiple rack on a hard points.


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## Luftwaffe




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## maxx

fatman17 said:


> how so?
> same airframe and under-wing hard points!


_If_ a more powerful engine will be used, then each hard points will have higher load capacity (assuming the airframe limit is yet to be reached).


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## Manticore

found a great shot!

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## Silk

maxx said:


> _If_ a more powerful engine will be used, then each hard points will have higher load capacity (assuming the airframe limit is yet to be reached).


 
More engine power does not only lead to more payload... If your construction is not up to the task you will not have many happy landings.

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## Tanzil

Is j10's technology is inspired by Euro Fighter


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## ChineseTiger1986

Tanzil said:


> Is j10's technology is inspired by Euro Fighter


 
Maybe F-16 as well, since it was aimed to be the rival for single-engined 3rd gen fighter.


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## pakiboy341

Can Somebody Give any New Input on any Development in Engine Issues
Is it Possible for Pakistan to Get J 10B Engine from Russia(AL32FN).I hope people know that j-10b is very different from jf-17.J10b Will seriously Impose threat to India
Also lots of India plains are using AL31FN Engine.so can Russia give that Engine to Pakistan?

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## a1b2c145



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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

J10B is a modern fighter, that happens to have 9-10 hard points , a air superiority plane is justifiable role, a much more advance plane then the planes made in 80's and much of 90's 

Best fighter planes in world , and soon to be joining Pakistan Airforce


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## Storm Force

J10 joining PAF is up in the Air.

Air forces monthly article This month suggest the proposed order of 36 fc20 by PAF have hit a hurdle due to financial issues.

The are debates this rumour in 2 other seperate PAK DEFENCE FORUMS.. 

Like i said ITS CONJECTURE/RUMOUR etc.


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## Bratva

"It is *Thought *That Pakistan has cancelled the order"


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## Manticore

^^ j10a/b was to counter indian mmrca --- i think paf is waiting to see the actual fighter iaf will choose and then necessary adjustments will take place--I dont think that paf will ditch the FC-20 in favour of more f16 because of past experiences

maybe j10 will be upgraded to such an extent for paf,[stealthy varient] that the name might be eventually changed aswell 

once the indian mmrca is announced,paf might get its counter mmrca delivery even before the indians!

however indians wanted to block all potential sellers to paf by delaying the mmrca tender but they didnt count on the china factor and its effect on our future aviation development.

moreover i personally will go with huitong's site
The latest rumor (February 2011) suggested that Pakistan AF has ordered a number of J-10Bs but this has not been confirmed.


----------



## TEXAS BATTLESTAR

Thanks for sharing the clips of the movie HousShanghai!


----------



## TEXAS BATTLESTAR

tanlixiang28776 said:


> I tried watching it but I couldn't either. Chinese dramas are so melodramatic these days


 
At least the chick is hot!


----------



## TOPGUN

There is nothing in the air nor a rumor it is just to keep everyone in suspense these things take time you just don't worry or loose any sleep you shall see fc-20 in our PAF colors soon to come look out for it

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## Storm Force

FC20 doubts could be real based on a PAF opinion that FC20 is too similar in size and capability to F16 MLU/52.

#Maybe they want a twin engined fighter NEXT


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## Jungibaaz

Storm Force said:


> FC20 doubts could be real based on a *PAF opinion that FC20 is too similar in size and capability to F16 MLU/52.*
> 
> #Maybe they want a twin engined fighter NEXT


 
FC-20> F-16/52

FC-20 will be used to counter Indian MMRCA, as it will be a 4.5 gen fighter

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## S-A-B-E-R->

guys talked to my cosun in paf abt this issue ,he says dont worry PAF have nt givenany ofical statement on any issue regarding FC20...he said we dont give an aircraft designation and ditch it .....he said the level of traning all pilots r getting now days is a whole new level and entire PAF is buzzing like bees ...a lot is going on ...he also said all u fanatics have to do is be patient and dont worry abt f16 and fc20 both r different projects with nothing in common even funding is with different name

he was very care ful with his words as he told me before that this year ll be much busier then last one and paf is nt taking any chances

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## SQ8

The FC-20 is coming.. for now.
any rumors are to be taken as they are.. rumors.

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## Thorough Pro

Godless-Kafir said:


> Why cant Pakistan ask for F-22? India spent so much time with USSR and Russia and now we have so much trust that we do JVs with them but Pakistan spent 60years with US and you should demand the F-22 or JSF!


 
Stop trolling. on just 18 f-16's your government cried so much, what would they do if Pakistan asks for any thing more advanced, although we are not going to get those .


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## houshanghai

J-10 fighter training simulator


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## SBD-3

Godless-Kafir said:


> Why cant Pakistan ask for F-22? India spent so much time with USSR and Russia and now we have so much trust that we do JVs with them but Pakistan spent 60years with US and you should demand the F-22 or JSF!

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## SBD-3

Storm Force said:


> FC20 doubts could be real based on a PAF opinion that FC20 is too similar in size and capability to F16 MLU/52.
> 
> #Maybe they want a twin engined fighter NEXT


----------



## SBD-3

houshanghai said:


> J-10 fighter training simulator


 
I have these pics but it was rumored that these pictures are from J-10B Cockpit. Can you please confirm on what J-10 Varient are you referring to here??


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## SBD-3

I have also come across a post indicating J-10B is *J-10 block 7*. Anybody with confirmation on that and any more details on block specifications in J-10

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## houshanghai

hasnain0099 said:


> I have these pics but it was rumored that these pictures are from J-10B Cockpit. Can you please confirm on what J-10 Varient are you referring to here??


 

these pic from chinese offcial website .it is j10 block2 cockpit






[/IMG]

link;
http://mil.huanqiu.com/photo/newpic/2009-11/641321.html

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## a1b2c145

a1b2c145 said:


>


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Is the J 10 / FC 20 dead for pakistan---is that what air force monthly is reporting!!!!!


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## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Is the J 10 / FC 20 dead for pakistan---is that what air force monthly is reporting!!!!!


 
I dont think so, cuz if it were, then PAF would have shown a lot of urgency for more and more vipers. if J-10B is not for PLAAF then for whom? general Export market? 2015 is still 4 years from now. I heard that FC-20 will start arriving from Mid 2013, which is also almost 2 years away, so lets just sit and relax and see how things develop.


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## MastanKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> I dont think so, cuz if it were, then PAF would have shown a lot of urgency for more and more vipers. if J-10B is not for PLAAF then for whom? general Export market? 2015 is still 4 years from now. I heard that FC-20 will start arriving from Mid 2013, which is also almost 2 years away, so lets just sit and relax and see how things develop.


 
Hasnain,


A member on a sister site def info is stating / quoting that the AFM stating the FC20 dead for pakistan-----! My question is in relation to that.


----------



## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> Hasnain,
> 
> 
> A member on a sister site def info is stating / quoting that the AFM stating the FC20 dead for pakistan-----! My question is in relation to that.


 
Yeah i read that article, the wording was, "it is thought that the cost was deemed prohibitive and order was canceled", so it was author's own perception, hannan said that PAF had got a very generous offer. Now honestly think that what we have been talking about J-10B in 30 Million USD a piece, good systems do cost more, so J-10B will cost more if it comes with advanced systems of J-20.At current PAF is busy with JFT and F-16s. And apparently wants to get done with these two tasks as soon as possible. Unless we hear something drastic coming out which would sound like Plan B, we can not say that FC-20 plan has been scrapped.


----------



## Pioneerfirst

there is no doubt that j-10 is a perfect air frame but the difficulty is the avionics.China is far behind than west in this field.PAF wants western avionics over its FC-20,this will increase the fighter price to almost 1.5 times.As PAF plans to induct more F-15 blk 52 and used USAF fighters with upgradation so it does not has the financial muscle to do all this JFT programme running fast.But the FC-20 project is still intact and all we see are difficulties which do rise.


----------



## SBD-3

Pioneerfirst said:


> there is no doubt that j-10 is a perfect air frame but the difficulty is the avionics.China is far behind than west in this field.PAF wants western avionics over its FC-20,this will increase the fighter price to almost 1.5 times.As PAF plans to induct more F-15 blk 52 and used USAF fighters with upgradation so it does not has the financial muscle to do all this JFT programme running fast.But the FC-20 project is still intact and all we see are difficulties which do rise.


 
How do you say China is far behind the west? they have a demonstrator for 5th Gen flying, can you build a 5th Gen fighter with 3rd gen systems? look at the avionics package for JFT, it is as good as any western jet. So dont under estimate Chinese progress, US made a fatal mistake by estimating 5th Gen around 2020,2030 and you see what happened...

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## JPUSINVNSCK

J10B will have AESA radar right?When do the PAF will have those J10b enter service?


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## F86 Saber

hasnain0099 said:


> How do you say China is far behind the west? they have a demonstrator for 5th Gen flying, can you build a 5th Gen fighter with 3rd gen systems? look at the avionics package for JFT, it is as good as any western jet. So dont under estimate Chinese progress, US made a fatal mistake by estimating 5th Gen around 2020,2030 and you see what happened...


 
Hasnain Bhai you know you wasted your time typing three lines as a reply when reposting the GIF in your post # 3888 would have sufficed.

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## fatman17

the gap with china when compared to the west is in engine manufacturing. in all other areas they have made great strides.

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## rcrmj

Pioneerfirst said:


> there is no doubt that j-10 is a perfect air frame but the difficulty is the avionics.China is far behind than west in this field.PAF wants western avionics over its FC-20,this will increase the fighter price to almost 1.5 times.As PAF plans to induct more F-15 blk 52 and used USAF fighters with upgradation so it does not has the financial muscle to do all this JFT programme running fast.But the FC-20 project is still intact and all we see are difficulties which do rise.


 
mate the main area china is behind west is the engine not the avionics.. we estimate it is 20 years gap between u.s and china in jet engine field.

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## MastanKhan

rcrmj said:


> mate the main area china is behind west is the engine not the avionics.. we estimate it is 20 years gap between u.s and china in jet engine field.


 
Sir,

It is more like 50 years---regarding fighter aircraft engines.


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## tanlixiang28776

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> It is more like 50 years---regarding fighter aircraft engines.


 
No we are not. The most powerful fighter engine the US will be fielding is the F 135 with a maximum thrust of 191Kn. China will be using the WS 15 which will produce a maximum of 180Kn.


----------



## ChineseTiger1986

tanlixiang28776 said:


> No we are not. The most powerful fighter engine the US will be fielding is the F 135 with a maximum thrust of 191Kn. China will be using the WS 15 which will produce a maximum of 180Kn.


 
F-135 is not designed to supercruise, it is not the same type of engine as F-119.

Whereas WS-15 is the same LBR type of engine as F-119, but presumably it will be more powerful.

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## notorious_eagle

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> It is more like 50 years---regarding fighter aircraft engines.


 
At Face Value, Yes the Chinese are quite behind but factor in how fast the Chinese industry is growing. They are running multiple simultaneous jet engine projects to master this technology, its only a matter of time before the Chinese close up this gap. We have already seen how fast they have closed up the gap in the areas of avionics and weaponry. China is looking to become a military superpower, and their investments in different Defence Projects confirms this premise.

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## houshanghai

Not so exaggerated&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;50 years


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## ChineseTiger1986

houshanghai said:


> Not so exaggerated&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;50 years


 
20 years of gap sounds appropriate.

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## khurasaan1

MastanKhan said:


> Hasnain,
> 
> 
> A member on a sister site def info is stating / quoting that the AFM stating the FC20 dead for pakistan-----! My question is in relation to that.


 Is possible due to the fact that we getting JF17 in the next version more capable than the present FC20 on the table ...
so the time will tell what is gonna happen and what is behind the curtain...
I guess if we get JF17 stealth version within next 2 to three yearz and be able to mass produce it ..then maybe FC20 might go outta equation....for time being..yea maybe we go for J20 in future...with single engine most probably...


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## khurasaan1

rcrmj said:


> mate the main area china is behind west is the engine not the avionics.. we estimate it is 20 years gap between u.s and china in jet engine field.


 
I guess by looking at the level of skill in China ..this gap will be matched within the next 5 to 6 yearz at the most...hopefully Insha-Allah...


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## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> It is more like 50 years---regarding fighter aircraft engines.


 
Even the highly anti China sources such as strategypage recognized that the engines that russian offered had a life span of 1000 Hrs where as Chinese were able to tweak their engines to 1500 Hrs. They did note that China is catching up on at least Russia, really fast. 50 Years is too pessimistic. China has the resource, the structure and the talent to do it real quick, i dont wana see you caught as Robert Gates

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## mean_bird

I think what Mastan was trying to compare is that China is still fielding Russian engines on 4th (western) generation fighters that were built 40 years or more ago like F-14, F-15 and F-16. The equivalent J-11 and J-10 are still having (mostly) Russian engines.

So in a sense its true the gap is very wide. However, I do believe that once the critical knowledge of material science is gained for one engine, a huge gap can be covered in just a couple of years with China potentially reducing the gap to just 10 yrs in say say another 5 yrs.

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## Manticore

khurasaan1 said:


> Is possible due to the fact that we getting JF17 in the next version more capable than the present FC20 on the table ...
> so the time will tell what is gonna happen and what is behind the curtain...
> I guess if we get JF17 stealth version within next 2 to three yearz and be able to mass produce it ..then maybe FC20 might go outta equation....for time being..yea maybe we go for J20 in future...with single engine most probably...


 
stealthy 4.5 generation jf17 e better better radar, engine, payload, combat radius.... but the weapons bay will add extra weight, so either we use greater composites or get a more powerful engine..

maybe we are starting another jv for a fifth gen, single engined fighter like the f35...instead of investing money in three 4.5 generation platforms, which might feel the heat after pakfa induction..


----------



## rcrmj

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> It is more like 50 years---regarding fighter aircraft engines.


 
lol how? 50 years ago turbofan engine wasnt even developed, 100% of most advanced aircrafts at that time were using turbojet engines. with russian's help china wasnt too shabby in turbojet engine fields`

so my suggestion for u is to say things more accordingly mate``


----------



## phrozenflame

What if Pakistan decides to skip J-10 in favour of this:



> The latest rumor (March 2011) suggested that 611 is working on a downgraded single-engine stealth fighter design which will be ready for export just like American F-35.



Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force


----------



## MastanKhan

Very emotional people----think with your brains---think like engineers and not with rhetoric---manufacturing a stealth plane is easier than manufacturing an engine for it---.


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## SQ8

I still dont think the FC-20 idea is completely out yet..
and if it is.. be sure to thank the economy and the present government.

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## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> Very emotional people----think with your brains---think like engineers and not with rhetoric---manufacturing a stealth plane is easier than manufacturing an engine for it---.


I said it before and I am saying it again, engine production and design is not a child's play, The engine is the most crucial part of airplane to me at least, or to be a bit more pessimistic, equally crucial as design and weapon systems. Chinese planners admit that they made a fatal mistake by concentrating on design more and almost neglecting engine research (100K Rinminbi a fiscal year).But now, they are tying to make up for it by investing 10 bliion Rinminbi in engine research AVIC to invest 10 billion yuan in engine R&D | China business news. AFAIK, the engines for 4th gen fighters. i.e. WS-10 and WS-13 are handled by Tihang which is encountering some issues (understandable as engine needs time to mature). The engine for 5th Gen i.e. WS-15 is being produced by Whushan, and the project is promising till date. However, this is what I have come across during my time spent on different reads and thus, remains an opinion.

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## alimobin memon

To me fc20 is not good, better buy more thunders and update the same design ,radar,ram etc j10a has same avionics only more radar range payload etc
but fc20 is upgraded more by 4.5++ avionics suite so if we upgrade jf17 as same since nose has been changed and increased so radar accommodation is more 'irst' and some more avionics, well design can be made larger to add internal EW and Jammers inside as f16 to f2(japan)...my2cents.


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## SBD-3

Santro said:


> I still dont think the FC-20 idea is completely out yet..
> and if it is.. be sure to thank the economy and the present government.


there one interesting rumor that FC-20 will come with baseline WS-15 engine instead of WS-10 or WS-10A. What sparks my interest in this is that J-20 will be operationalize circa 2015-2016. PLAAF still have a considerable requirement for replacement of their J-7s and J-8s. So there is a requirement of J-10s. I dont think PLAAF will induct J-20 in huge numbers (may be numbers near USAF raptor i.e. circa 200). The rest will be 4.5th gen or may be single engine stealth(snowy owl, or CAC 5th Gen, J-11D) you never know. J-10B looks more potent than J-10A so there is no reason why PLAAF would sit and wait for 2015-2016 and not replace its aging platforms with J-10B


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## muse

Lets keep our powder dry, there's little point in arguing 20 years or 50 years ahead or behind - we need a better understanding of what kinds of problems the Chinese are experiencing, it may be that problems are not of science but of production process, or that problems in a one or two key areas is hampering development overall -- and lets be mindful that overcoming one or more particular problems, whether in science, materials manufacturing or manufacturing process, can have huge implications over a rather short period of time.

Lets try and understand what the problems are before we can make meaningful statements.

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## muse

What's up Hataf, you missing the good old days?


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## MastanKhan

Hataf,

I was just thinking about the irony of the fact---the poor man has no place to wash his rickshaw----and then he is being punished in the most humiliating and degrading form----a punishment that is absolutely pathetic---now I wouldn't mind using it on my two boys at home for once, just to give them a taste of 'pakistan'----but for an adult man to do it to another man----that is reprehensible.

As for the engine----before you climb the mountain top---fear the slope---for that is where you get killed---. The engine that sr71 has/had---were designed in the 50's---neither does russia and nor china have anything similiar----china won't be close to manufacturing something like that for maybe another 20--25 years----. Which may put them at about 60----75 years behind america in that technology.

You people think that china is the master of the universe----in some forms it is----but not in engine building----china gets a lots of stuff that is leaked out from U S/russia----in the form of engineers, brain drain and paper material---.

Now think in a different manner----what if the leak is intentional-----out of 10 equations----7 or 8 equations are right----but 2 or 3 ---the most critical are wrong---the way the progress and design is setup----you have to manufacture from 1---7----then you get to the rest---you have invested billion dollars and ten years to get there----and when you get to the point to testing and performing---after you have designed the last 2/3 critical item-----you find that those 2/3 critical items had design flaws---intentional design flaws---which looked good on the paper but had no way of being proven to be incorrect. What if those design flaws were a form of sabotage by the west/russians---.

What if they were put in there intentionally----to keep the chinese going in a way---but to make them stumble at the very end. Industrial sabotage has different forms and shapes----this one of the worst kind.


Let me go back a little bit----if you are the west or russia---you already know that china is going to try to get the design-----now do you fear the moment that they steal it all on their own----just like the israelis did for the mirage 3 designs from switzerland in the 60's when the french put sanctions on them---and you have no control over what happens after that---or you admit to the fact---yes it will happen---it is inevitable---so why not create a ruse----let us set them in the seemingly right direction in bits and pieces----have news media cry about the chinese engineering prowess----create scenarios for the chinese to believe that they are in the right direction and so close to hitting the jackpot------IT IS JUST LIKE ALCHEMY-----EVRYTIME THERE IS JUST A TAD BIT HERE A TAD BIT THERE THAT YOU MISSED THE MAKING OF THE GOLD----.

Some of you were so confident tha you were already fighting your air battles and air superiority of the FC 20 a long time ago----TO THOSE-----HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THE SAYING-----PROMISE LESS DELIVER MORE.

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## houshanghai

del myself


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## BATMAN

^^ Reading this, it seems what MK wrote above had really been the case with China engine development.


----------



## teddy

Don't worry, FC-20 is actually the J10B. believe me.


----------



## farhan_9909

hasnain0099 said:


> there one interesting rumor that FC-20 will come with baseline WS-15 engine instead of WS-10 or WS-10A. What sparks my interest in this is that J-20 will be operationalize circa 2015-2016. PLAAF still have a considerable requirement for replacement of their J-7s and J-8s. So there is a requirement of J-10s. I dont think PLAAF will induct J-20 in huge numbers (may be numbers near USAF raptor i.e. circa 200). The rest will be 4.5th gen or may be single engine stealth(snowy owl, or CAC 5th Gen, J-11D) you never know. J-10B looks more potent than J-10A so there is no reason why PLAAF would sit and wait for 2015-2016 and not replace its aging platforms with J-10B


 
i want to tell you about this rumour

if your talking about the wikipedia
where in ws-15 search it is written that Ws-15 is to be installed on j-xx and J-10B

then dont be happy because

j-10B is added by me their long time back and it is still their.

and this is true


----------



## SBD-3

farhan_9909 said:


> i want to tell you about this rumour
> 
> if your talking about the wikipedia
> where in ws-15 search it is written that Ws-15 is to be installed on j-xx and J-10B
> 
> then dont be happy because
> 
> j-10B is added by me their long time back and it is still their.
> 
> and this is true


 
I *Do not* consult wikipedia for referencing


----------



## sino_pak

A chinese military expert said on cctv that j-10's combat capability was similar with F-16cd.


----------



## sino_pak

j-10 will likely to play a main role in future air battle instead of all outdated chinese fighters.


----------



## shanixee

sino_pak said:


> A chinese military expert said on cctv that j-10's combat capability was similar with F-16cd.


 
which J10...J10 A or J10 B


----------



## abdulbarijan

shanixee said:


> which J10...J10 A or J10 B


 
He was talking about J-10 A which is in PLAAF service,J-10 B would be something superior may be comparable to block 60 or higher


----------



## Super Falcon

but when do PAF gets this i dont think so it is exists anymore that we get J 10


----------



## sino_pak

Pakistan military shall pay much attention to how to make j-10,not total number of j-10

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## SBD-3

Super Falcon said:


> but when do PAF gets this i dont think so it is exists anymore that we get J 10


Be patient, its 2011.........


----------



## Dazzler

FC-20 contract is on track as i said earlier, will be inducted by 2013-14

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## houshanghai



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## Manticore



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## farhan_9909

seems like J-10B is another u-214 in making


----------



## Machoman

Is there any chance Pakistan will get j-15 from China in future? or Russia will block this one too like j-11?


----------



## red_baron




----------



## Areesh

farhan_9909 said:


> seems like J-10B is another u-214 in making


 
Have patience. J 10 was not supposed to be inducted in 2011 anyways.


----------



## mjnaushad

red_baron said:


>


 
Love battlefield 2..... Its a shame they dont have any ranked server in Pakistan.


----------



## Manticore

found a labelled better resolution one


----------



## Mani2020

How many times we are gonna see the same pictures time an time again?

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## taimoorb

HI,
I havent been following this forum that much but i had a question. Did Pakistan arforce induct j-10's into its inventory?


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## Manticore

^^no,not yet-------- the fc20 might not even be j10b--- we will know better about its induction in 2013


----------



## Ahmad Abdullah Ravian

according to China Govt ;
'Pakistan is likely to be the first export customer, having begun negotiations to buy 36 aircraft several years ago. To be designated locally as FC-20s, deliveries are likely to begin from 2014-15."
but still JF-17 is doing the job


----------



## houshanghai

j10b PT1034 new pic.and J10A PT1004(ws10) is testing in yanliang now .paf will buy full-status j10b(ws10+Aesa).the cockpit of J10b is second only to F35 (info from cdf)

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## aimarraul

J-10B equip with AESA radar?












ZTCD¡°¶ºÄãÍæ¡±ÐÂÍ¼£º´ø°å×©µÄ10B£¬¾ÝËµÊÇÓÐÔ´| Ó¥»÷³¤¿Õ - ·ÉÑï¾üÊÂ ÐñÈÕ³ö¶«·½£¬¾«²ÊÔÚ·ÉÑï - powered by phpwind.net

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## DANGER-ZONE

aimarraul said:


> J-10B equip with AESA radar?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ZTCD¡°¶ºÄãÍæ¡±ÐÂÍ¼£º´ø°å×©µÄ10B£¬¾ÝËµÊÇÓÐÔ´| Ó¥»÷³¤¿Õ - ·ÉÑï¾üÊÂ ÐñÈÕ³ö¶«·½£¬¾«²ÊÔÚ·ÉÑï - powered by phpwind.net


 
it seems to be the Twin seater J-10b

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## Mani2020

danger-zone said:


> it seems to be the Twin seater J-10b


 
lol what a secret


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## seele9999

FC-20 radar

from

½ñÌì´òÄñ¹éÀ´×÷Òµ[Page:1] - ¿Õ¾ü°æ - ³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³ - ×î¾ßÓ°ÏìÁ¦¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³ Super Military Forum Of China

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## wangwei11607

PESA
Amplification 15 times

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## seele9999

another version says its only a shell&#65292;not real radar&#12290;because that middle wire thing is some words:nanjing 14 xxxxx


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Hope we also get the J10B on urgent delivery mode 30 J10B would do us good , with AESA

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## SU-33

¾ÍÕâÑù¸øÐºÁË£¬¼ß10BÕ½»úµÄÏà¿ØÕóÇåÎúÍ¼_¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³_ÐÂÀËÍø
This is picture of J10B with ASEA.


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## S10

wangwei11607 said:


> PESA
> Amplification 15 times


Wrong, those words says Nanjing 14th Insitute.

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## houshanghai



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## seele9999

NEW PIC TODAY






¡¾³¬´óÊ×·¢¡¿ºÚË¿ÃÃÃÃ Ã°ËÀÅÄÉã ÎÞË½·îÏ× ¡¾¸ßÇå¡¿¡¾5ÔÂ19ÈÕ2193#¡¿[Page:55] - ¿Õ¾ü°æ - ³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³ - ×î¾ßÓ°ÏìÁ¦¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³ Super Military Forum Of China

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## Manticore

Following are some updates by eaglehannon





Confirmed: The 50 new jets will be Block 2 JF-17s. The structure parts will be flown to Chinese for final avionics and testing assembly. Unlike the first block where all avionics were assembled at Kamra. I think thats why Media is confusing "Made in China". The reason is new radar readied by Nanjing Institute with complex assembly procedures. Sensor suit is an upgrade and all Chinese.
I am not sure about this emergency bases thing in Media. I think its wrong news. but I have not confirmed it. This posted info is from a senior person as our ordinary pilots an engineers can not comment on anything as such for obvious reasons. I dont write any account of interaction with them as there has earlier been an incident of disclosure some times back and the blamed person had to bear consiquences (I was not party in that. Someone here was he knows it)

Confirmed: Current block 1s will not be upgraded. It will be replaced by block2s at the end of 150 jets. A new squadern will be raised for the sole purpose of training foreign buyers of this aircraft and rest of the examples will move to CCS to replace ageing Aircrafts. Block 2 might be the last version of JF-17s. The block2 radar (will disclose name and improvements once I get a nod from someone senior... or not) shall be the standard radar for all JF-17s. Improvements will all be based on this standard version. Block 1 radar carrying planes are exception.
*
Confirmed: FC-20's 90% pending issues are finished. The wings are slightly modified and are composite structures (above 50%). Canard foreplane's hight is slightly changed.
I am sure the tactics for this plane are already in place and this Aircraft will see front lines immediately on induction (my estimate: this years end or starting mid next year). FC-20 is a excellent platform as per pilots. Confirmed by the ones who did it, it does perform that SU30's famous manuver and recovers much faster than it.
*
Confirmed: SD-10B is already inducted. Numbers are being made up. It is indeed confirmed that side by side performance comparissons put it on par with Aamram120c5s. All JF-17s and FC20s will carry it for next 5 years before a new version is presented. (Confirmed existance of a NG Medium range missile programe by Chinese for their stealth version). The Meteor is out of equation as vendor will now allow integration with Chinese platorms.

From a Chinese source: There is still a posibility of J-11B with russian engine for PK Navy. I said it before in 2009. PAF comment was, its all dependant on WS10 engine which may be common in FC20 and J11B. I wish it materialize as I have heard it over and again by senior navy officers. Surface assets are vulnerable to attack. I remember posting a detailed conversation with a senior navy officer some times ago.

Inshallah will post the postables from my recent interactions as I find time.

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## Donatello

ANTIBODY said:


> Following are some updates by eaglehannon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Confirmed: The 50 new jets will be Block 2 JF-17s. The structure parts will be flown to Chinese for final avionics and testing assembly. Unlike the first block where all avionics were assembled at Kamra. I think thats why Media is confusing "Made in China". The reason is new radar readied by Nanjing Institute with complex assembly procedures. Sensor suit is an upgrade and all Chinese.
> I am not sure about this emergency bases thing in Media. I think its wrong news. but I have not confirmed it. This posted info is from a senior person as our ordinary pilots an engineers can not comment on anything as such for obvious reasons. I dont write any account of interaction with them as there has earlier been an incident of disclosure some times back and the blamed person had to bear consiquences (I was not party in that. Someone here was he knows it)
> 
> Confirmed: Current block 1s will not be upgraded. It will be replaced by block2s at the end of 150 jets. A new squadern will be raised for the sole purpose of training foreign buyers of this aircraft and rest of the examples will move to CCS to replace ageing Aircrafts. Block 2 might be the last version of JF-17s. The block2 radar (will disclose name and improvements once I get a nod from someone senior... or not) shall be the standard radar for all JF-17s. Improvements will all be based on this standard version. Block 1 radar carrying planes are exception.
> *
> Confirmed: FC-20's 90% pending issues are finished. The wings are slightly modified and are composite structures (above 50%). Canard foreplane's hight is slightly changed.
> I am sure the tactics for this plane are already in place and this Aircraft will see front lines immediately on induction (my estimate: this years end or starting mid next year). FC-20 is a excellent platform as per pilots. Confirmed by the ones who did it, it does perform that SU30's famous manuver and recovers much faster than it.
> *
> Confirmed: SD-10B is already inducted. Numbers are being made up. It is indeed confirmed that side by side performance comparissons put it on par with Aamram120c5s. All JF-17s and FC20s will carry it for next 5 years before a new version is presented. (Confirmed existance of a NG Medium range missile programe by Chinese for their stealth version). The Meteor is out of equation as vendor will now allow integration with Chinese platorms.
> 
> From a Chinese source: There is still a posibility of J-11B with russian engine for PK Navy. I said it before in 2009. PAF comment was, its all dependant on WS10 engine which may be common in FC20 and J11B. I wish it materialize as I have heard it over and again by senior navy officers. Surface assets are vulnerable to attack. I remember posting a detailed conversation with a senior navy officer some times ago.
> 
> Inshallah will post the postables from my recent interactions as I find time.


 
Let's hope all this is true.....by end of 2011.

However, you said JF-17 BLK II will replace aging aircraft at CCS? Doesn't CCS operate F-16s....due for MLUs?

Anyway, good info.


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## Manticore

> The wings are slightly modified and are composite structures (above 50%). Canard foreplane's hight is slightly changed.



dont see much difference..


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## Manticore

looks like pesa in j10b


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## wangwei11607

Confirm.

PESA J10 100% 






China electromechanical product exhibitions

Label: CHINA PESA 

J10 PESA

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## Silk

The difference between pesa and aesa is that there is a central emitter which can transmit only one frequency at a moment (but one can switch fast to the next) and the aesa can transmit as many frequencies as the number of modules. You can say that pesa is kind of risc processor while ease is the normal intel. If you have enough speed in switching in the pesa then there is little difference. Pesa can be a powerful radar but the main advantage is lower compexity of the modules.


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## ambivalence

great pictures.


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## farhan_9909

So our AESa dream for J-10B is vanished


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## S-A-B-E-R->

guys somting big is going on back doors PAF have taken OBL thing really on its head some big deal of aircrafts is getting its way with china(no not jf or fc) along with som kind of mobile air def system frm russia..and somthinabt amping up all posts with man pads ..i mean its just the tip of ice berg i have a lot of info i cant tell and im dying too...


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## muse

> From a Chinese source: There is still a possibility of J-11B with Russian engine for PK Navy.


Antibody


Strongly support a potent naval aviation component built around the J11

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## Donatello

muse said:


> Antibody
> 
> 
> Strongly support a potent naval aviation component built around the J11



Question is, who would provide the funds to run and keep these beasts?

I mean, Even today PAF runs the strike platform for PN. Such a dedicated setup for PN would be atleast half a billion dollars.....

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## Manticore

^^ mirages can be revamped with carrier version of j11bs , which is completely chinese

China will not take the industrial trade risk for selling their version of landbased Su-27


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## Areesh

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> guys somting big is going on back doors PAF have taken OBL thing really on its head some big deal of aircrafts is getting its way with china(no not jf or fc) along with som kind of mobile air def system frm russia..and somthinabt amping up all posts with man pads ..i mean its just the tip of ice berg *i have a lot of info i cant tell and im dying too*...


 
You can PM me. this can also save you from dying...

I won't tell anybody about it.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

Areesh said:


> You can PM me. this can also save you from dying...
> 
> I won't tell anybody about it.


 
nah u may be isi and come to kill me dont worry soon the info ll be out by paf it self


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## trident2010

Good work. 

However I don't find this out of propotion length very attractive. Wish that the length of this plane was little smaller, it looks like flying pipe. Just my observation, nothing negative intended.


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## Donatello

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> nah u may be isi and come to kill me dont worry soon the info ll be out by paf it self


 

Dude, WTF.


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## AwA.

trident2010 said:


> Good work.
> 
> However I don't find this out of propotion length very attractive. Wish that the length of this plane was little smaller, it looks like flying pipe. Just my observation, nothing negative intended.


 
The above image in not in right proportion. Take a look at a good quality picture with right proportions, only then you will be truly appreciate the beauty of this plane.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

penumbra said:


> Dude, WTF.


 
i know mate just kidding wait for a wile ill get permission to open the word


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## farhan_9909

Pakistan will recieve FC-20 this year..confirmed news.confirmed by eaglehannan and also by dunya news

China will provide FC20. The B version of J-10, this year. 34 might be the initial number. The radar is AESA. Wait for the news to break inshallah.

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## razgriz19

*He said Pakistan requested for frigates of 4400 tons on credit basis and also asked the Chinese government to train Pakistani personnel on submarines. 
The Minister further stated,We are grateful to the Chinese government for constructing Gwader Port. However, we will be more grateful to the Chinese government if a naval base is being constructed at the site of Gwader for Pakistan.
Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani told his Chinese counterpart that their programme of JF-17 Thunder Aircraft was going on successfully, but it would be a pleasure for us if the PLA (Peoples Liberation Army) will induct the aircraft in their air fleet. This will give us a lot of publicity to our aircraft and we will be able to sell a larger quantity of the aircraft to bring down the cost.
The Chinese government subscribed to our request to equip our Air Force with FC-20 Aircraft.*

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## Manticore

some more tidbits from eagle hannon




Pakistan has been impressed with SD-10 and there is a commitment from Chinese side to further upgrade the missile. To my info, Chinese in recent presentations have given road map for upgrades and PAF agrees to it.

J-11 might be the part of political decission. I did not know how to put it but with Gawader definately going to Chinese. They will be given bases symbolicaly (mark my words, this has already been planned). I am sure they'll announce it and then Chinese will request to have a base which will be given. J-11 might come this way. Operating with Pakistanis. PAF high level officials have already made deal for FC-20 and New JF-17s, finalized a month ago and waiting for Gillani to come and announce a success story blah blah.

Chinese base in Balochistan which Shall be the BASE for open help Pakistan might need from China.

China will provide FC20. The B version of J-10, this year. 34 might be the initial number. The radar is AESA. Wait for the news to break inshallah.

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## Manticore

China accedes request to take over operations at Gawadar Port: Mukhtar 

ISLAMABAD, May 21 (APP): The Chinese government has acceded to Pakistans request to take over the operations at Gawadar Port as soon as the term of agreement with the incumbent Singapore Port Authority expires. This was stated by Federal Minister for Defence, Chaudhry Ahmad Mukhtar after completing his visit to China, said a press release. 
China is an all-weather friend and the closest ally of Pakistan, and it can be judged from the fact that in which ever sectors Pakistan requested assistance during PMs recent visit to China, they immediately agreed with Pakistan, he said.
Chaudhry Mukhtar said that during their meeting with Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jia Bao, he, being the Defence Minister of Pakistan, raised and discussed some important strategic and economic issues.
He said, Pakistan considers that peaceful and stable Afghanistan is in the interest of Pakistan and the whole region. Pakistan supports a stable government in Kabul which shall be Afghan owned.
He said Pakistan requested for frigates of 4400 tons on credit basis and also asked the Chinese government to train Pakistani personnel on submarines.
The Minister further stated,We are grateful to the Chinese government for constructing Gwader Port. However, we will be more grateful to the Chinese government if a naval base is being constructed at the site of Gwader for Pakistan.
Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani told his Chinese counterpart that their programme of JF-17 Thunder Aircraft was going on successfully, but it would be a pleasure for us if the PLA (Peoples Liberation Army) will induct the aircraft in their air fleet. This will give us a lot of publicity to our aircraft and we will be able to sell a larger quantity of the aircraft to bring down the cost.
The Chinese government subscribed to our request to equip our Air Force with FC-20 Aircraft.
The Chinese Premier was pleased to discuss that his government would help us in repairing Attaabad Lake and KKH road, once the clarification regarding these projects are being received to the Chinese government, he added.
He said,We agreed on the point that stability had to be achieved in the region by the joint efforts of both Pakistan and China and by defeating the terrorists in the region.
At this point Pakistan asked China that a message may be conveyed to the US government that Pakistans sovereignty should be respected. The Chinese government assured that they would help us to remove all the bottlenecks coming in the way of our prosperity. 

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan&#039;s Premier NEWS Agency ) - China accedes request to take over operations at Gawadar Port: Mukhtar

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## Manticore

sorry , the edit option vanishes in a day-- i was intrigued by the dsi change and as eagle hannaon said the canards position has changed--

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## Manticore

i cant find the pic i used in this video at 1.47 timestamp , comparing prototype j10b with the preproduction one

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## Manticore

twin seater testing
ä¸å½é¶é«åº¦ååº§å¼¹å°æçç³»ç»è¯éªè§é¢ - è§é¢ - ä¼é·è§é¢ - å¨çº¿è§ç
[video]http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODA0MDIwOTI=.html[/video]




*JF-17 Block II, A Final Thunder & The FC-20 - Updates*

5/20/2011
Meinhaj Hussain, 

Pakistan and China have recently concluded a final agreement for the manufacture of a second batch of JF-17s. According to well-vetted sources from Pakdef (Eagle Hannan), these 50 jets are the final form of the JF-17s. The aircraft will be manufactured at Kamra, Pakistan, but will be flown to China for additional work. This work is said to relate to a new generation of avionics and sensor suite. 

The Block II JF-17 is believed to have AESA radars similar to those observed on the J-10B. The integrated avionics, sensors and EW suite is entirely Chinese and is believed to be at the level of Europes best planes. The AESA radar is a slightly smaller version of the one being utilized for the J-10B. The radar is highly sophisticated and its installation is beyond the present capacity at PAC Kamra and will thus require the aircraft to take a trip to Nanjing, China.

The Block II will be the standard version to be used in the PAF with the older Block Is to be retired after the end of production for the first 150 aircraft. This suggests that the structural changes needed to convert the Block Is to Block II standard are significant, suggesting considerable changes to the revised edition. The following are believed to be some of the key changes:

1. AESA radar

2. Comprehensive upgrades for low RCS profile including cockpit glass, RAM paint, refined structure, completely new nose structure for AESA, significant increase in the use of composites and retractable refueling probe. 

3. Awaited integration of A-Darter missiles from Brazil / South Africa with HOBS capability and Brazilian HMS. 

4. The BVR missile is the SD-10B which has been found more than a match for the AMRAAM-120 C5s. An unknown Meteor class missile is in the works beyond the SD-10Bs.
A significant export order has been secured and an entire squadron is being dedicated for training and familiarization of foreign pilots (Source: Eagle Hannan, Pakdef).
*
Contrary to conflicting reports in the media, this writer believes that the order for the FC-20s were finalized and that this order has increased to 58 planes. *Given the recent crisis post-Abbottabad, the PAF is being beefed up in a hurry and the FC-20s will play a critical role in the defence of the Western sector. Given the nature of the mountainous terrain and the inability to use the F-16s, these platforms along with the JF-17 will prove to be of significant deterrence value. China is believed to be sacrificing its own production requirements to meet PAF's needs in a hurry and unbelievable financial terms appear to have been extended. 

These FC-20s are a highly lethal version of the original and incorporate AESA radars, a high degree of composite use, low observability features and an advanced integrated avionics suite. The wide HUD visible on the J-11s are also believed to have been utilized. In Eagle Hannan's recent update, he notes that the wings have been modified and include over 50% composite use. He also makes the surprising claim that the canard fore-planes have been modified. Both these factors indicate a significant structural and aerodynamic revamp that would require significant changes even in the FBW.Such a revamp was already suspected given the canted nose and the DSI bump.

The same source also indicates that the plane (FC-20) has been praised by pilots and capable of incredible maneuvers including the Cobra so famously performed by the FLANKERs. He notes that FC-20 not only performs this maneuver but also performs it better, recovering significantly faster. While this maneuver is not of great military importance, the maneuverability and Fly-By-Wire (FBW) maturity this indicates, suggest that the FC-20 is a well-evolved and lethal machine.

Eagle Hannan also indicates that the Pakistan Navy is interested in the J-11Bs with Russian engines. This appears to be counter-intuitive given the sensitive nature of Russia's copyright relations with China. However, it is possible that Pakistan may attempt to placate this sensitivity by buying Russian engines and paying royalties. It is also possible that Russia is smarting from India's recent rejection of Russian military gear and move towards Western sources. These all make for a great deal of controversy and are likely to keep arm-chair generals and military analysts busy in the foreseeable future.What is clear is that Pakistan and the PAF will get a significant boost, in fact a major leap in capabilities in the next 12-24 months.

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## Kompromat

Scalable Agile Beam AESA Radar. 






Anyone ?

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## MJaa

*Whole Sale Defence Deals: Pakistan and China*

Its amazing to hear about so many deals in one day especially the Submarines, New Naval Base, JF-17 Thunders for PLAAF, FC-20 Fighter Jets and Type 054A Jiangkai Stealth Frigate:

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## hatf IX

ANTIBODY:- i really have love and respect for your devotion 

great work man . . . .

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## MJaa

ANTIBODY said:


> twin seater testing
> ä¸å½é¶é«åº¦ååº§å¼¹å°æçç³»ç»è¯éªè§é¢ - è§é¢ - ä¼é·è§é¢ - å¨çº¿è§ç
> [video]http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODA0MDIwOTI=.html[/video]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *JF-17 Block II, A Final Thunder & The FC-20 - Updates*
> 
> 5/20/2011
> Meinhaj Hussain,
> 
> Pakistan and China have recently concluded a final agreement for the manufacture of a second batch of JF-17s. According to well-vetted sources from Pakdef (Eagle Hannan), these 50 jets are the final form of the JF-17s. The aircraft will be manufactured at Kamra, Pakistan, but will be flown to China for additional work. This work is said to relate to a new generation of avionics and sensor suite.
> 
> The Block II JF-17 is believed to have AESA radars similar to those observed on the J-10B. The integrated avionics, sensors and EW suite is entirely Chinese and is believed to be at the level of Europes best planes. The AESA radar is a slightly smaller version of the one being utilized for the J-10B. The radar is highly sophisticated and its installation is beyond the present capacity at PAC Kamra and will thus require the aircraft to take a trip to Nanjing, China.
> 
> The Block II will be the standard version to be used in the PAF with the older Block Is to be retired after the end of production for the first 150 aircraft. This suggests that the structural changes needed to convert the Block Is to Block II standard are significant, suggesting considerable changes to the revised edition. The following are believed to be some of the key changes:
> 
> 1. AESA radar
> 
> 2. Comprehensive upgrades for low RCS profile including cockpit glass, RAM paint, refined structure, completely new nose structure for AESA, significant increase in the use of composites and retractable refueling probe.
> 
> 3. Awaited integration of A-Darter missiles from Brazil / South Africa with HOBS capability and Brazilian HMS.
> 
> 4. The BVR missile is the SD-10B which has been found more than a match for the AMRAAM-120 C5s. An unknown Meteor class missile is in the works beyond the SD-10Bs.
> A significant export order has been secured and an entire squadron is being dedicated for training and familiarization of foreign pilots (Source: Eagle Hannan, Pakdef).
> *
> Contrary to conflicting reports in the media, this writer believes that the order for the FC-20s were finalized and that this order has increased to 58 planes. *Given the recent crisis post-Abbottabad, the PAF is being beefed up in a hurry and the FC-20s will play a critical role in the defence of the Western sector. Given the nature of the mountainous terrain and the inability to use the F-16s, these platforms along with the JF-17 will prove to be of significant deterrence value. China is believed to be sacrificing its own production requirements to meet PAF's needs in a hurry and unbelievable financial terms appear to have been extended.
> 
> These FC-20s are a highly lethal version of the original and incorporate AESA radars, a high degree of composite use, low observability features and an advanced integrated avionics suite. The wide HUD visible on the J-11s are also believed to have been utilized. In Eagle Hannan's recent update, he notes that the wings have been modified and include over 50% composite use. He also makes the surprising claim that the canard fore-planes have been modified. Both these factors indicate a significant structural and aerodynamic revamp that would require significant changes even in the FBW.Such a revamp was already suspected given the canted nose and the DSI bump.
> 
> The same source also indicates that the plane (FC-20) has been praised by pilots and capable of incredible maneuvers including the Cobra so famously performed by the FLANKERs. He notes that FC-20 not only performs this maneuver but also performs it better, recovering significantly faster. While this maneuver is not of great military importance, the maneuverability and Fly-By-Wire (FBW) maturity this indicates, suggest that the FC-20 is a well-evolved and lethal machine.
> 
> Eagle Hannan also indicates that the Pakistan Navy is interested in the J-11Bs with Russian engines. This appears to be counter-intuitive given the sensitive nature of Russia's copyright relations with China. However, it is possible that Pakistan may attempt to placate this sensitivity by buying Russian engines and paying royalties. It is also possible that Russia is smarting from India's recent rejection of Russian military gear and move towards Western sources. These all make for a great deal of controversy and are likely to keep arm-chair generals and military analysts busy in the foreseeable future.What is clear is that Pakistan and the PAF will get a significant boost, in fact a major leap in capabilities in the next 12-24 months.


 
Nice work friend keep it up

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## Donatello

Keep us Updated, AntiBody.


Good to hear this news.

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## VelocuR

Anyone missing:

*Another thing about J-11B
*
Eagle Hannan also indicates that the Pakistan Navy is interested in the J-11Bs with Russian engines. This appears to be counter-intuitive given the sensitive nature of Russia's copyright relations with China. However, it is possible that Pakistan may attempt to placate this sensitivity by buying Russian engines and paying royalties. It is also possible that Russia is smarting from India's recent rejection of Russian military gear and move towards Western sources. These all make for a great deal of controversy and are likely to keep arm-chair generals and military analysts busy in the foreseeable future.What is clear is that Pakistan and the PAF will get a significant boost, in fact a major leap in capabilities in the next 12-24 months.


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## VelocuR

Aeronaut said:


> Scalable Agile Beam AESA Radar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone ?



I don't see how you compare to F16's radars, are they same?


*PESA RADARS*

8 Red Points





Example: 
8 Red Points





It is Pesa clearly.


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## Manticore

more info from eagle hannon





Bit of exageration here and there. I tried to carefully mention with reasons of J-11 and also mentioned, the source for this particular one is NOT Pakistani.

Block II configurations were layed down since last September (2010). I did mention them in my earlier posts.

A swash plate AESA was in testing till 2011, January and was to be redied till the planned visit of Prime Minister Gillani. However, I think the media is exagerating about 50 numbers in weeks. Impossible. I can tell that Aicrafts will be fitted with sensors and electronics in batches of 5. If they take 2 weeks per batch (fitting, testing), how will they complete 50? in 6 months makes more sense.

One thing I want to clear is, that while I am sure the sensors wil be fitted in JF-17s in Chingdu, I did not ask if all the said 50 will be flown here or a few batches to have the engineers trained and rest of the work being done at Kamra.
*
FC20 was indeed praised in best words and FC20 inshallah will be announced soon. I was told 34 as a first order. Deliveries should begin by december or Jan next year.*

There are serious exagertion mentioned for JF-17s, RETRACTABLE IFR? Till last news, it was NOT retractable. RAM Coating is a definate.

I was being told that A darter is a serious possibility as the vendor has no problem with its integration on a chinese platform. PAF at present has the problem because Denel Dynamics wants PAF to share develpment cost. Till then PL9C is the standard WVR missile on all Chinese Platforms.

HOBS?? May be after this SRAAM issue matures.


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## ledworld

You guys want to go to ChengDu to see f-20 test flight if possible?


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## monitor

ledworld said:


> You guys want to go to ChengDu to see f-20 test flight if possible?


 
Of course ! send me a ticket and entry pass .


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## ledworld

non required. lot of people gathers outside of perimeter fences andwait for test flight.
For example: at the first test flight the police patrol simply warned the people do not take pictures, just watch.
maybe foreigner will be sighted and exiled.


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## Kompromat

@RaptorRX707


Multiple radars are tested on a platform in order to assess competitiveness of those different radars - FC-20 would have an AESA and it cannot be denied by a picture with PESA radar under testing - it could just be mare comparative testing. 

Moreover in that post i was trying to compare the size of the noses of both a/c that they can accommodate an AESA radar.

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## Riz

ledworld said:


> non required. lot of people gathers outside of perimeter fences andwait for test flight.
> For example: at the first test flight the police patrol simply warned the people do not take pictures, just watch.
> maybe foreigner will be sighted and exiled.


 when the first flight of FC-20 is schedule ? Did you seen FC-20 Before how it looks like ?


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## Mani2020

Lol first try to find out how terrorists every time sneak into such major defense bases then search out what radar is this, can't handle a naval base an talking big . since last few years every major base of military has been attacked and still many sheer optimists and blind patriots say we will do this and that , my a$$

This is the foolishness of this nation that instead of accepting that we are beaten all ends up still we over rate these people . 5 people held up 1500 armed personals including commandos for 17 hours and we say we are proud of there bravery ,my foot ,

Freaks me out the pathetic mentality

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## Dazzler

you need a break, they are giving their lives for our security and this reaction is what they get from people like you? If you have the guts, go join them otherwise calm yourself down. There is always a hope. There is a need of revised security measures but this does not mean we are doomed. On topic though, j-10b radar does seem to have TR modules which suggest its an AESA, also mentioned on huitong's page, those IFF dipoles seem to create confusion though. 

Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force

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## Riz

Nabil bhai, Our defense forces are failed to protect themselves, that is truth, when ever they attacked they claimed fool proof security has been taken place for the protection of any future mishap, They have been attacked multiple times in same way that ordinary peoples like you & me force to think like Mani2020, we have never ever try to learn from the past, on 21 August 2008 The attack on wah factory gate, which killed at least 70 the deadliest on a military site in Pakistan's history when two bombers detonated themselves at the factory's gates while workers were changing shifts, we never learn from it & again it happens on 13 may 2011 attack at a military training center in northwest Pakistan, which reportedly killed more than 80 poor trainees, when they are coming out from the main gate like sheep reyor, infect we don't want to see them wasting there life like fools they should kill the enemy while saving there owns, it is disgusting to see when convoy moving side by side on the rush roads of Rawalpindi, God forbid on single car attack would be resulted fearful casualties to our belove ones.....................Love Pakistasn or Leave Pakistan

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## Stealth

usless money spending on military IMO! purchasing F16s Purchasing Submarines lol US and our other enemies already destroying and destablizing us without WAR! 

These weapons cant do anything! till we dont have proper RULE OF LAW and investigation and one thing which is more important ... our All military establishment heads and govt full of liars.... especially genius book of world record holder "Rehman Malik" and dont forget Military and Govt statements. Better "IMPLEMENTATION OF LAW" rather than passing statements.

we are spending money on totally useless things!


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## Mani2020

nabil_05 said:


> you need a break, they are giving their lives for our security and this reaction is what they get from people like you? If you have the guts, go join them otherwise calm yourself down. There is always a hope. There is a need of revised security measures but this does not mean we are doomed. On topic though, j-10b radar does seem to have TR modules which suggest its an AESA, also mentioned on huitong's page, those IFF dipoles seem to create confusion though.
> 
> Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force


 
our security my a$$ do you know how many civilians have died since 2001? can you feel the pain of those who have lost their parents, sibblings ,children?

they die after utter failures not for defending anyone rather to save their nose.and even if they die its their responsibility to save the nation and this is what they are here for, don't forget the facilities these people get ,nation dies for hunger and these people enjoy the luxury of having houses in most advanced areas with luxury of everything

and btw who is dieing only those poor people who are working at low ranks of military what about the culprits like generals and other higher ups , what they have done can be done by even the forces of vitenam rather even better , can you imagine 1500 trained personals held up by 5 terrorists for 17 hours that too on one of the most sensitive naval bases, isn't it a failure , if you still don't accept it thn you must be having some relative or close relation in military ,Zardari's son can never say Zaradri is corrupt


Its easy for you to come up every 2nd day with " heyyyyyyyyyyyyyy i have found that jf-17 has this and that "but what the hell those people do with these jf-17's who have lost their dear ones in bomb blasts and who don't have security of their lives, tell me? jf-17 and all other things my a$$ if civilians don't have security for their lives and well beings

why don't they sell all civilians to americans for bucks and with that bucks by f-22 or whatever they want and then use them to defend their a$$es

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## Riz

We will be suffering until Keyani & Co. will not realized that the blood of those innocent who are killed in drone attacks are like the blood of our own son's & children, there mothers sisters & wifes have same heart as like our mothers & sisters have for there belove ones, they also cry when they see the body parts of there son's, we should stop getting aid as it is damaging our national honor and should seek help from the people of Pakistan instead.............

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## Stealth

Shame and slap on Pakistan All security organizations and govt!


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## alimobin memon

International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Chinese Dimensions of the 2007 Dubai Airshow

According to this fc20 will have thrust vectored engine AL-31F


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## Gandhi G in da house

why is pakistan not getting/buying J-11 ?


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## farhan_9909

nick_indian said:


> why is pakistan not getting/buying J-11 ?


 
Because we are more intrested in FC-20
andFC-20is also a single engine so suite PAF


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## Mani2020

riz1978 said:


> We will be suffering until Keyani & Co. will not realized that the blood of those innocent who are killed in drone attacks are like the blood of our own son's & children, there mothers sisters & wifes have same heart as like our mothers & sisters have for there belove ones, they also cry when they see the body parts of there son's, we should stop getting aid as it is damaging our national honor and should seek help from the people of Pakistan instead.............


 

They are not going to feel that because they have not suffered with such things themselves, 

All those people who still defend them tell me one thing, if you don't have security in your own country, if you don't have homes in your own country , then what are you going to do with such country?

Tell me if someone's of your relative or brother or anyone dies in a drone attack what are you going to do? remain a calm and coll civilian and wait for the drones to come again and knock your a$$ down or feel helpless and angry and that helplessness and anger will push you towards reactiveness which you now call "terrorism" 

What do you expect frm those people who have lost their families in drones attack to do for you? you are sitting in A/C rooms using laptops and praising culprits or jf-17 but what about those who see bloods 23/24 hours? who just dn't now for how long they are with their family? are they going to see them again or not, who have burried their wives, sons,daughters and husbands with their own hands just because your army in return gets few junks like cobras or f-16's?

Afreen ha tum logon pe

The history proves that muslims never won any battle on the base of technology we won it on imaan then why these people are so materialistic always asking like beggars, where that iman has gone?

You don't know whom you are killing , you don't know whether the person you killed was innocent or not ,whether he was muslim or not but you are just tagging them with "Shaheeds"

Kya Shahadat lafz itna chota hogaya k Benazir bhi maray tau hum usay Shaheed kahain aur koi mulk bechanay wala bhi maray tau usay Shaheed kahain? 

To sell your people for few bucks is this imaan for you?

I fyou want to see imaan ,see the Iman of those who instead of all handicaps defeated kufar in Ghazawa-auhad, Ghazwa-e-badar and keep going throughout the history

A person in military's uniform killing innocent Chechnians in Quetta is not a mujahid, neither a Shaheed 
If a person wears khaki uniform it doesn't mean he is a mujahid or Shaheed 

Don't manipulate islam for your own purposes for heaven sake and don't defend culprits just for one's own benefit, this is the time to stand otherwise our fate will not be different form Palestinians 

24 hours culprits ko defend karne ki bajaye KHUDA se mafi mango k tum per REHAM ho ,

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## ANG

Hi Mr. Mani2020, yes a JF-17 and FC-20 is useless against a terrorist. A lot of people are frustrated at the complete ineptitude of the current leadership and moreover, their blatant lack of concern of the suffering of the mases. 

It is also a national disgrace that over 30K people have died in Pakistan due to bombings and terrorist attacks, and this figure does not even count the countless thousands maimed and injured.

However, this thread is about the FC-20, so I request we stay to this point.


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## ledworld

riz1978 said:


> when the first flight of FC-20 is schedule ? Did you seen FC-20 Before how it looks like ?


Nope, i wasnt around, i am in ShenYang, i see j-11b flew over me everyday tough. Even though i am a chengdu native.





this is picture of people outside of test flight site perimeter.


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## Shahzad Sultan

I totally agree with the Mani's view, Sharm magar hum ko nahin aatee


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## MJaa

Its incredible how people can turn their eyes from the facts when they have already made up their mind to bash someone

JF-17 and especially F-16s are actively participating in the war against terrorists in FATA operations by providing close support and destroying the terrorist hide outs as well as the training camps. 

You can take a look at the NATO and US forces operating against Taliban and their use of fighter jets gunships.


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## SQ8

Stick to the FC-20!


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## Mani2020

sorry mods


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## MJaa

nick_indian said:


> why is pakistan not getting/buying J-11 ?



FC-20 is completely new design, improved as per PAF needs by Chinese and is single engine ie better turnaround rate with low maintaince hours per flight hour. may be may be if offered PN will look into the J-10BS for maritime strike because of its long range but even that can be covered with help of IL-78 Tankers. And may be Chinese are not looking to upset Russians and are more interested in selling their own design.

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## abaseen99

Recently, the online exposure of a few pictures show the latest variant J -10 J-10B fighter radar front picture. Users according to the picture of the F-10B&#8217;s radar is a passive phased array radar (PESA). PESA radar usually the middle of a row or rows of IFF antenna. The Active Phased Array Radar (AESA) has not yet seen the middle of this line is a flat surface without protrusion, so some users believe that the yellow radar map the surface of the black dots array for the IFF actual antenna, which fire control radar is to determine whether to adopt active phased array main indicator of high-tech.

Ordinary radar beam scanning by the radar antenna rotation is achieved, also known as mechanical scanning radar.

The phased array radar is a way to control the power point to changes in the radar beam scanning, this approach is known as electronic scanning. Phased array radar, radar though not as dependent as other rotating antenna to the radar beam rotation, but it is their own &#8220;trick&#8221;, that is using the &#8220;phase shifter&#8221; to turn the radar beam. Phased array radar antenna is a large number of radiators (small antenna) array consisting of (square, triangle, etc.), radiator varies from several hundred to as many as several thousand, even thousands, of each radiator are connected to the back of a controllable phase shifter, each phase shifter controlled by the computer. When the search for long-range phased array radar target, although do not see the antenna rotation, but tens of thousands of radiators controlled by computer focus fired in one direction, deflection, even thousands of meters away on the intercontinental missile and several thousands of meters satellite, can not escape its &#8220;eyes.&#8221; If the goal is to deal with more recent of these emitters and can share the responsibility, produce multiple beams, some search, some track, and some guidance. It is this radar abandon the general principle of the radar antenna, it gave it a different name &#8212; phased array radar, that &#8220;the phase to control the antenna array&#8221; means.

Phased array radar is divided into active (active) and passive (passive) categories. In fact, active and passive phased array radar antenna array the same, the main difference between the two is the transmit / receive element number. Passive phased array radar is only one central transmitter and a receiver, transmitter, high frequency energy generated by the computer automatically assigned to each radiator array, the target reflected signal amplified by the receiver uniform (unlike ordinary radar not very different). Active Phased Array Radar for each radiator is equipped with a transmitter / receiver module, each component can generate their own, receiving electromagnetic waves, and therefore bandwidth, signal processing and redundancy degree of the design than the passive phased array radar has a larger advantage. Because of this, it makes the active phased array radar, expensive and engineering more difficult. But the active phased array radar has unique advantages in functionality, a great passive phased array radar replaces the trend.

Active Phased Array Radar

biggest difficulty lies in transmit / receive components manufacturing, relatively speaking, passive phased array radar is much less technical difficulty. Passive phased array radar in power, efficiency, beam control and reliability, as active phased array radar, but the functionality is obviously better than the ordinary mechanical scanning radar, after all, a good compromise. Therefore developed a practical active phased array radar, before completely passive phased array radar as a transitional product. Moreover, even if the active phased array radar, developed after the passive phased array radar, phased array radar as a family of low-end products, still has great practical value.


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## alimobin memon

Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
check his out page is removed and instead j10 a guy abusing spain!!


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## chiching

You're welcome. BTW, how far back do you suggest answering some of these posted problems? See a lot of unanswered ones going way back.

---------- Post added at 11:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 AM ----------

I saw the J-10 video clip in california today on CNN.

---------- Post added at 11:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 AM ----------

biggest difficulty lies in transmit / receive components manufacturing, relatively speaking, passive phased array radar is much less technical difficulty. Passive phased array radar in power, efficiency, beam control and reliability, as active phased array radar, but the functionality is obviously better than the ordinary mechanical scanning radar, after all, a good compromise. Therefore developed a practical active phased array radar, before completely passive phased array radar as a transitional product. Moreover, even if the active phased array radar, developed after the passive phased array radar, phased array radar as a family of low-end products, still has great practical value.

---------- Post added at 11:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 AM ----------

You can take a look at the NATO and US forces operating against Taliban and their use of fighter jets gunships.

---------- Post added at 11:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 AM ----------

some search, some track, and some guidance. It is this radar abandon the general principle of the radar antenna, it gave it a different name &#8212; phased array radar, that &#8220;the phase to control the antenna array&#8221; means.

---------- Post added at 11:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 AM ----------

I totally agree with the Mani's view, Sharm magar hum ko nahin aatee


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## wolfgen

Riding Vigorous Dragons into the Sky
The Chengdu J-10 is a multirole fighter aircraft designed and produced by the People's Republic of China's Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) for the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). Known as "Vigorous Dragon, the J-10 is the most important aircraft designed in past 20 years in China Aviation Industry, and enter service at 2005. J-10 is a 3+ Generation multi-role combat aircraft capable of all-weather day/night operation. In PLAAF, J-10 takes similar position as F-16 Viper in USAF.

The J-10 from Bear Studios is an accurate and in-depth simulation product for Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 & FSX (ESP/Prepar 3D). In this product, we make complex systems and operating procedures simulating reference from a real combat aircraft.
Note: For flight simulator versions differences and limitations, not all animations and/or features may function during solo or multiplayer flight.

The complete feature list includes:
1,	in depth simulation designed for aircraft system based on official published papers related to Engine, Hydraulic Machinery, Avionics, Radar, Flight Control and Navigation system on J-10.
2,	highly efficient and detailed external modeling for J-10. Delivery and Jettison sequence recreating from real aircraft.
3,	Weapons and storages individually modeled with weight. 
When selected weapons/storage released from aircraft, SMS (Storage Management System) will detect status and take dynamic changes.
4,	Custom keystroke mapped to gaming devices for HOTAS setups.
5,	highly detailed Virtual cockpit (VC) features:
High resolution textures with sharp gauge text. 
Emissive Avionics, MFD and HUD.
Flood light and Console light in 2 colors, MFD and Gauge Back light for Night Flight, Interior lights controlled by individually light control switches, simulating electrical bus behavior.
Switch-able cockpit positions both in FS2004 and FSX (2-seats only)
6,	JL-10A Multi-role Fire Control Radar and Optical Sensor system simulation.
This system has 5 main modes, for searching detecting and calculation of fire control solution to designated AI target and/or selected fixed ground target, Radar with 6 difference scan sub modes related to proper weapons or working functions
CRM/ACM Mode for air target
GMTI Mode for ground moving target
FTT Mode for ground fixed target
NAV Aid (Beacon) Mode
AIFF for ACM/CRM combined Modes
FLIR/ IRST system simulation. Stand-alone LST/LDT or coupled working with FCR.
Integrated Fire Control System simulation
Data Link and Ground Control Intercepting System (GCI) simulation.
7,	all weapons and storages have delivery animate sequence and procedure, controlled by SMS system. Weapons and Stores include:
PL-8 Air-Air Missile
PL-9 Air-Air Missile
PL-12 Middle Range Air-Air Missile
SD-10 AMRAAM
PL-16 HARM
LS-6 Glide JDAM
LT-2 Laser Guided Bomb
250KG free fall / retarded bomb with different working mode controlled by SMS
1400L and 800L drop-able external tanks
Navigation /Terrain Follow Radar Pod
FLIR/LDT Pod
8,	Built-in aerial refueling using AI aircraft for Tanker.
9,	fully animated canopy and ejection sequences. 
10,	Procedural animation system including:
Missile launches (4 types, with smoke tail and flame attached to animated missiles shape). 
JDAM/LGB/Bomb release (4 types, with animated bomb shapes). 
Rocket launches, with smokes tail and flame attached to rockets shapes
Jettison (emergency or selective). 
Boarding ladder, air intake blockage covers, visible controlled by conditional status 
Full pilot articulation with autonomous movement and gesturing. 
Build-in FCS controlled flight control surfaces. 
Speed brake and hydraulics power simulation
Real functional Drag Chute, animated and rotated by conditional status, deploy with real limitation related to real aircraft.
Automatically trailing and leading edge flaps. Controlled by related conditional status
Tip vapor effects. Afterburner and engine flame Effect, controlled by conditional status
Gsh-23-2 Gun system and effect simulation.
11,	Cockpit sound system for warning and advisor voice (FSX only).
12,	Built-in exterior lights for landing, taxing, Dim-able navigation and beacon lights.
13,	60 pages of Operational Flight Manual
14,	Simulated combat capability:
Radar Guided Missile / Radar Homing Missile simulation
Laser Guided Bomb simulation
GPS guided Bomb simulation
FLIR LST and LTD simulation (no IR imagery).
Stand-alone ECM/ESM system with advisor display.
15,	10 models with different typical payload configurations reference from real aircrafts. 10 liveries including typical J-10 units.
16,	Advanced graphics /back lighting techniques. Highly accurate, custom designed avionic displays (MFD, HUD, DTU, CNI displays)
17,	Custom Auto Throttle for Cruise, Approach and Takeoff Status, continually adjust by Flight Control System.
18,	Custom 10-mode autopilot which mimics the actual J-10 FCS:
Barometric Altitude Hold (BALT). 
Radar Altitude Hold (RALT). 
Flight Path Angle Hold (FPAH) 
Heading Select (HSEL).
Custom in-flight waypoint reprogramming via build-in GPS system.
Coupled Waypoint (CPL WPT).
Coupled Sequence (CPL SEQ).
Coupled TACAN (Ground-based TACAN navigation)
Coupled Beacon (Ground-based Beacon navigation).
GCI Coupled Vector for Air-Air Intercepting (GCI CMD)
Low Level Terrain Follow Flight (More Limitations, reference from OFM)
19,	Functional Hydraulics, Failure, Electrical, Fuel, Emergency Power System (EPU), Engine Working Limitation and adjust system (ECU) and more.

System Requirements / FS Compatibility 
MICROSOFT FLIGHT SIMULATOR X (ESP/Prepar 3D)
Windows - Windows XP or Win7/Vista
Processor - 2.8 GHz
Video Card - 256 Mb
Memory - 2 Gb RAM
Hard Drive - 250 Mb

MICROSOFT FLIGHT SIMULATOR 2004
Windows - Windows XP or Win7/Vista
Processor - 2.8 GHz
Video Card - 256 Mb
Memory - 2 Gb RAM
Hard Drive - 600 Mb

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## abdulbarijan

well a simple and blunt question..
Does the FC-20 has something similar to the thales spectra defensive aids suite used on rafale??
Thales Spectra-Wikipedia


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## aimarraul



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## houshanghai

jf17's composite rack exhibited in zhuhai airshow 






j10

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## DANGER-ZONE

houshanghai said:


> jf17's composite rack exhibited in zhuhai airshow



How? any proof? its very much similar to J-10's ? Plz provide some reference regarding rail.


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## houshanghai

danger-zone said:


> How? any proof? its very much similar to J-10's ? Plz provide some reference regarding rail.



inf from cdf

http://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1162094&page=1&authorid=433633

Google Translate

J-10 load with 4 PL-12 &#65288;sd10) training missiles

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## DANGER-ZONE

houshanghai said:


> inf from cdf
> 
> µÚÒ»´Î¼û¹÷×ÓÊ¹ÓÃ¸´ºÏ¹Ò¼Ü´ø4Ã¶PL12·ÉÐÐ - ¿Õ¾ü°æ - ³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³ -
> 
> Google Translate
> 
> J-10 load with 4 PL-12 &#65288;sd10) training missiles


 
No no no broo .... i do believe about J-10's Multiple Missile rail but you said that for Jf-17 


houshanghai said:


> *jf17's composite rack exhibited in zhuhai airshow*


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## houshanghai

danger-zone said:


> No no no broo .... i do believe about J-10's Multiple Missile rail but you said that for Jf-17


 
yeah! the pic is jf17&#8216;s composite rack model on display in zhuhai airshow . but the reference is chinese link and must be registered member can see 

In addition I think their Multiple Missile rack are the same .


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## DANGER-ZONE

houshanghai said:


> yeah! the pic is jf17&#8216;s composite rack model on display in zhuhai airshow . but the reference is chinese link and must be registered member can see
> 
> In addition I think their Multiple Missile rack are the same .



*So this imagination of mine is going to be true. *

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## Dazzler

IIRC, i said JFT will have MER for multiple BVR missiles many months ago as i was told by someone involved in the process. It was a requirement and will be there for sure in JFT as i have no reason to believe why not.


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## TOPGUN

Wonder if the fc-20's will be in grey PAF schme?


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## Bratva

FC-20 will come with chinese or Russian Engines?


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## Arsalan

waiting for some updates on procurement schedual!

i hope the J-10B or FC-20, whatever PAF is looking for do gets inducted around 2013~2014


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## salvage

TOPGUN said:


> Wonder if the fc-20's will be in grey PAF schme?


 
one of them in chrome with black star and crescent would look too good,with a black nose too


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## Arsalan

any news on rcent developments,

which phase these are in and when PAF is hoping to get there hands on to this machine.

also are the specs still under warps or something authentic is know about the radar, EW suite and engines?

(Joining back after a long break and looking forward to refresh my knowledge)

Arsalan Aslam


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## fatman17

arsalanaslam123 said:


> any news on rcent developments,
> 
> which phase these are in and when PAF is hoping to get there hands on to this machine.
> 
> also are the specs still under warps or something authentic is know about the radar, EW suite and engines?
> 
> (Joining back after a long break and looking forward to refresh my knowledge)
> 
> Arsalan Aslam



FC-20 remains on the back burner AFAIK. PAF is committing itself to JF-17 for the time being.


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> FC-20 remains on the back burner AFAIK. PAF is committing itself to JF-17 for the time being.


 
goog enogh, provided that the BLK-II is what we have discussed it to me.
more use of composities, better engine,IRST, retrackable refueling probes perhaps an AESA and more payload.

i dont think this is the case to be..


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## Bratva

I'm having a strong hunch that, we are going to see Russian engine on FC-20. because of recent Pakistani Russian high level interactions and changes in geo political situations.


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## abaseen99




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## abaseen99




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## abaseen99

J-10B fighter&#8217;s radar
Mychinanet - Published Time&#65306;2011-06-06 22:39 Tags&#65306;J-10B Source&#65306;My China Net
Recently, a few photos of J-10B fighter&#8217;s radar array in Chinese websites exposed. Users analysis think that the pictures shows the J-10B&#8217;s radar is a passive phased array radar (PESA). PESA radar usually the middle of a row or rows of IFF antenna. The Active Phased Array Radar (AESA) has not yet seen the middle of this line is a flat surface without protrusion, so some users believe that the yellow radar map the surface of the black dots array for the IFF actual antenna, which fire control radar is to determine whether to adopt active phased array main indicator of high-tech. 



Ordinary radar beam scanning by the radar antenna rotation is achieved, also known as mechanical scanning radar. 
The power phased array radar is a way to control changes in the radar beam point scanning, this approach is known as electronic scanning. Phased array radar, radar though not as dependent as other rotating antenna to make the radar beam rotation, but it is their own "trick", that is using the "phase shifter" to turn the radar beam. Phased array radar antenna is a large number of radiators (small antenna) array consisting of (square, triangle, etc.), radiator varies from several hundred to as many as several thousand, even thousands, of each radiator are connected to the back of a controllable phase shifter, each phase shifter controlled by the computer. When the search for long-range phased array radar target, although do not see the antenna rotation, but tens of thousands of radiators controlled by computer focus fired in one direction, deflection, even thousands of meters away on the intercontinental missile and several thousands of meters satellite, can not escape its "eyes." If the goal is to deal with more recent of these emitters and can share the responsibility, produce multiple beams, some search, some track, and some guidance. It is this radar abandon the general principle of the radar antenna, it gave it a different name &#8212; phased array radar, that "the phase to control the antenna array" means. 
Phased array radar is divided into active (active) and passive (passive) categories. In fact, active and passive phased array radar antenna array the same, the main difference between the two is the transmit / receive element number. Passive phased array radar is only one central transmitter and a receiver, transmitter, high frequency energy generated by the computer automatically assigned to each radiator array, the target reflected signal amplified by the receiver uniform (unlike ordinary radar not very different). Active Phased Array Radar for each radiator is equipped with a transmitter / receiver module, each component can generate their own, receiving electromagnetic waves, and therefore bandwidth, signal processing and redundancy degree of the design than the passive phased array radar has a larger advantage. Because of this, it makes the active phased array radar, expensive and engineering more difficult. But the active phased array radar has unique advantages in functionality, a great passive phased array radar replaces the trend. 
Active Phased Array Radar biggest difficulty lies in transmit / receive components manufacturing, relatively speaking, passive phased array radar is much less technical difficulty. Passive phased array radar in power, efficiency, beam control and reliability, as active phased array radar, but the functionality is obviously better than the ordinary mechanical scanning radar, after all, a good compromise. Therefore developed a practical active phased array radar, before completely passive phased array radar as a transitional product. Moreover, even if the active phased array radar, developed after the passive phased array radar, phased array radar as a family of low-end products, still has great practical value. 
The mainstream of the world have installed a new fighter AESA phased array radar, the installation of new radar to have greater combat aircraft upgrade. Let us look at the world&#8217;s major aircraft phased array radar it. 
F-35&#8242;s APG-81 AESA radar front smaller and only has 1,200 transmit / receive modules, the other, APG-77 power (said to 16.4KW) to be much larger than the APG-81, so. F-22A aerial target radar detection range for the F-35 is far more than about 1 / 3. APG 81 has the advantage of a work on the model, its mapping synthetic aperture radar (SAR) / ground moving target indication (GMTI) / moving target indicator capability at sea-surface / air-sea mode and more than performance on APG a 77. APG-81 An important feature is to have the same time mapping synthetic aperture radar (SAR) and ground moving target indicator (GMTI) capacity, although its detection range against air targets far less than the F-22A, but a 81 APG target detection capability of the air is far stronger than the F / A 18 series and a series of F-16 fighter jets airborne pulse Doppler radar. 
APG-81 in the work mode of the advantage is not absolute, it was reported: The United States is being upgraded by replacing radar radar modules and software approach, working on F-22A&#8217;s APG-77 radar performance upgrades, and soon after upgrade After the APG-77 radar performance under various operating modes will be more powerful, relatively speaking, APG-81 radar upgrade the performance space is very small, the first F-35 nose radome of the size of already small, and the APG -81 radar and EOTS system also share the already crowded head space, followed by the APG 81 radar by a power supply and cooling system of its limitations, so. Hard on the APG-81 radar further hardware upgrade. 
In addition, F-35&#8242;s APG-81 radar, both in cost and weight of the F-22 is one half of their working life and is expected to reach 8,000 hours of life consistent with the aircraft, that is not in the whole life cycle replacement of the radar. In these areas, APG-81 radar obvious advantages, but the replacement of some of the radar module 77 after the APG a radar will significantly reduce weight and cost, work life expectancy.


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## epinephrine

chinese r putting aesa radar in jf-17 block 2 while pesa in j-10b??


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## SBD-3



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## Manticore



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## S-A-B-E-R->

hasnain0099 said:


>


 

there is another pic of same origon which have fc20 on it i have been asking this question that y that pic have smaller nose cone than j 10 ?


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## Mani2020

These all pics are based on speculations there is nothing like anything that proves these images to be worthy of trust or are official,already been posted approx a year ago in Chinese defence section, for me its too much of exaggeration


----------



## houshanghai

hasnain0099 said:


>


 
the pic is old j10c( navy version )programme by rumor,but it have been canceled now.bcz PLAN chose the SAC j15 programme at last.


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## commander africa corps

you thats a sexy plane
do u want to sell some to libya?


----------



## untitled

commander africa corps said:


> you thats a sexy plane
> do u want to sell some to libya?



I cant see any reason why not


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## SBD-3

houshanghai said:


> the pic is old j10c( navy version )programme by rumor,but it have been canceled now.bcz PLAN chose the SAC j15 programme at last.


 
I have seen the pics for Navalized J-10 known as J-10AH (???) will post them soon as pic loading is blocked from my office


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## SBD-3

Navalized J-10AH

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## houshanghai

hasnain0099 said:


> Navalized J-10AH


 
^^it's my error .....bro,I mean that j10c( twin-engined ) is a design of Carrier aircraft .not the current j10a(navy version) you posted

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## siegecrossbow

hasnain0099 said:


> Navalized J-10AH


 
Naval J-10s will have white paintjobs? I think I actually prefer the gray ones.


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## propakistani

HOW MANY J-10B PAK IS BUYING FROM CHINA


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## mirage 5000

i have only one concern why the hell 2014 for this simple order?>\


----------



## Mo12

mirage 5000 said:


> i have only one concern why the hell 2014 for this simple order?>\


 
Two and half years in military terms is like 2 months, so chill out.


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## mirage 5000

Mo12 said:


> One and half years in military terms is like 2 months, so chill out.


 
so 10 years of civil are one year in military lolz.


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## Mo12

mirage 5000 said:


> so 10 years of civil are one year in military lolz.


 
Especially if its in Pakistan and India then yes.


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## khurasaan1

Jungibaaz said:


> initial order for 36 between 2014-2015
> more orders to follow, final number could be up to 150 FC-20


 
Lookz like a pretty formidable number ..Alhamdolillah.....

---------- Post added at 09:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 AM ----------




mirage 5000 said:


> i have only one concern why the hell 2014 for this simple order?>\


 
Looks like Ghaddariz politics involved......


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## Jungibaaz

mirage 5000 said:


> i have only one concern why the hell 2014 for this simple order?>\


 
good things come to those who wait 

The reason for it taking so long is that it will come with lots of goodies, recently produced by China.
AESA, IRST, DSI, SD-10B, RAM coating, Newer ECM/EW suite + KG-300G. 
It will be a damn good 4.5 gen fighter


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## Last Hope

According to my knowledge, the last time I researched for it, the initial order is of 36. The second order was of 36. So minimum of a 72.
I dont think we may acquire more.

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## Jungibaaz

Last Hope said:


> According to my knowledge, the last time I researched for it, the initial order is of 36. The second order was of 36. So minimum of a 72.
> I dont think we may acquire more.


 
depends on alot of factors... such as Indian MMRCA, JF-17 block II and III (if it lives up to it's potential or surpasses it), state of our economy, WOT and our defence budget.

I think 72 of these beasts would pack quite a punch.

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## Last Hope

Jungibaaz said:


> depends on alot of factors... such as Indian MMRCA, JF-17 block II and III (if it lives up to it's potential or surpasses it), state of our economy, WOT and our defence budget.
> 
> I think 72 of these beasts would pack quite a punch.


 
Inside news also tellme that J-11s are being considered. So its around 72 for now. If Block II of JF-T is a huge success (InShaAllah will be), then we might try something else.

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## araz

|People 
We have a running thread on FC20 .Why do we need a second thread to sask a simple question of numbers.
MODS please merge this thread with the running thread on FC20. 
On that forum you will finds the answerr to your post.
Araz


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## khurasaan1

Last Hope said:


> According to my knowledge, the last time I researched for it, the initial order is of 36. The second order was of 36. So minimum of a 72.
> I dont think we may acquire more.


 
I hope we get at least 100 of them if possible...Insha-Allah......


----------



## Mani2020

*Quoted from Pshamim
*


> I can say with certainity that number of FC-20s have been increased to 58 from 46. Will provide PAF an additional squadron. But I am certain the numbermay increase further. A recent news I posted about transfer of technology to Pakistan will make sense if PAF intends to go for larger numbers.

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## alimobin memon

if PAF buys more fc20's that means less number of jf17!!! or PAF might want to increase its size!


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## SBD-3

abaseen99 said:


> J-10B Gets AESA
> Posted by Bill Sweetman at 6/14/2011 7:07 AM CDT
> New Chinese internet images appear to show what has been suspected for some time: The new J-10B version of Chengdu's canard fighter is fitted with an electronically scanned array radar. It could be a Rafale-type passive ESA, but that's improbable in 2011 -- it is more likely an active ESA, its development quite likely aided by China's massive campaign of cyberespionage.
> 
> J-10B Gets AESA
> 
> The J-10B is interesting because it represents a major block change to what is itself a relatively new design. The most visible change is the diverterless supersonic inlet -- a feature that is usually associated with front-sector radar cross-section reduction. (The DSI was originally developed for an improved F-16 design.) In the J-10B's case, it may also be a less costly and less noisy alternative to the strut-braced mixed-compression ramp on the original design -- but the latest J-10B photos also show the telltale tint of a metallic-treated canopy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other changes include what appears to be a new electronic warfare system with larger antennas in underwing fairings and a fin-tip housing, and a missile approach/launch warning system. A standard J-10 has also been seen with twin-rail launchers for PL-12 missiles.


 
please refrain from adding news which have already been discussed....


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## SBD-3

alimobin memon said:


> if PAF buys more fc20's that means less number of jf17!!! or PAF might want to increase its size!


FC-20 and JFT are complements rather than substitutes. So having larger FC-20 fleet is independent from JFT procurement plan. JFTs will be inducted as per schedule.


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## alimobin memon

hasnain0099 said:


> FC-20 and JFT are complements rather than substitutes. So having larger FC-20 fleet is independent from JFT procurement plan. JFTs will be inducted as per schedule.


then i hope we PAF is planning to increase its fleet


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## CallsignAlzaeem

On wikipedia it states that PAF wants 150 of of them,Can somebody please confirm it for me?


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## Mani2020

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> On wikipedia it states that PAF wants 150 of of them,Can somebody please confirm it for me?


 
Wikipedia is a tricky kind of source , The info on wikipedia can prove to be true on one day and to be fabricated on another day, coz it can be edited by anyone , but this 150 numbers rumor is flying around for so long , Sources assure that the number of Fc-20 will be increased as the TOT is taking place ,so that makes sense , but nobody as of yet can confirm this 150 numbers mark, all you can hear are rumors ,but which rumor can hit the point no one knows


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## Salman Ahmad

PAF is trying to get more F16 Block 52 on the other hand they r also considering FC 20 in case US not approve paf request they will increase FC 20 numbers. But i think PAF should get out of F16 fobia as no one knows abt when USA impose sanctions on us.


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## alimobin memon

150fc20's+250jf17's+approx 100f16+some j20's maybe oh my!!! i hope my wish come true!!
520 maybe size increased i hope so by the way its not easy to edit in wikipedia !! so could be serios info of 150 fc20's


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## SBD-3

Salman Ahmad said:


> PAF is trying to get more F16 Block 52 on the other hand they r also considering FC 20 in case US not approve paf request they will increase FC 20 numbers. But i think PAF should get out of F16 fobia as no one knows abt when USA impose sanctions on us.


F-16 has one thing that FC-20 does not, more than 3 decades of reliability and combat effectiveness. No wonder many air forces still prefer falcons to be their wings. FC-20 will mature in due course. FC-20 may have a technological edge over falcon, but falcon remains a time and battle hardened platform

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## Silk

Mani2020 said:


> *Quoted from Pshamim
> *



Mani my friend, we should not use Pshamim, Eaglehannan or Munir as source but Rookh aka Adnan2k as one reliable source... Just read that after being banned on Pakdef he was here screaming like a little child towards the mod of Pakdef and now he is screaming like a little girl on Munir and Pakdef on Keymags. We do not need knowledge or respect but we should believe Adnan. I think you do understand that this is sarcastic cause most info posted ever on Pakdef turns out to be either the truth or very near to the truth. But I do read every post everywhere so it is getting interesting... Even if there is no bases of anything and it is just time consuming. Keep up the good work. Read your posts frequently here.


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## Khan Sahab

Ok my first post. I'm eagerly waiting for our FC-20 to show up. But I had a question, both FC-20 and JFT (Block 2) are rumoured to have AESA, IRST and everything similar SO the only difference will be range and payload?


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## Silk

Khan Sahab said:


> Ok my first post. I'm eagerly waiting for our FC-20 to show up. But I had a question, both FC-20 and JFT (Block 2) are rumoured to have AESA, IRST and everything similar SO the only difference will be range and payload?


 
Since the nose size seems to be different (we should Adnan whether it is same or not) we can say that the dish size is different so the range of the radar is different. Also the penalty of more or bigger sensors on J10B is less compared to the lighter JF17.


----------



## Khan Sahab

Silk said:


> Since the nose size seems to be different (we should Adnan whether it is same or not) we can say that the dish size is different so the range of the radar is different. Also the penalty of more or bigger sensors on J10B is less compared to the lighter JF17.


 
Ofcourse that is implied that FC-20 radar will have longer range and better sensors due to more room but its almost like saying FC-20 is a bigger JFT? Both are manoeuvrable and have same weapons. Only range and payload is smaller in Thunder.
Also I wanted to know how much will the usage of composite materials increase T/W ratios of both aircrafts?


----------



## Silk

Khan Sahab said:


> Ofcourse that is implied that FC-20 radar will have longer range and better sensors due to more room but its almost like saying FC-20 is a bigger JFT? Both are manoeuvrable and have same weapons. Only range and payload is smaller in Thunder.
> Also I wanted to know how much will the usage of composite materials increase T/W ratios of both aircrafts?



Personally I think the delta is much more suited for weigh reduction (simple big wings and more power compared to weight). To make a light plane lighter is simply asking for almost impossible task. Asking to make an heavy plane lighter is a bit easier. There is so much to do.


----------



## Mani2020

Silk said:


> Mani my friend, we should not use Pshamim, Eaglehannan or Munir as source but Rookh aka Adnan2k as one reliable source... Just read that after being banned on Pakdef he was here screaming like a little child towards the mod of Pakdef and now he is screaming like a little girl on Munir and Pakdef on Keymags. We do not need knowledge or respect but we should believe Adnan. I think you do understand that this is sarcastic cause most info posted ever on Pakdef turns out to be either the truth or very near to the truth. But I do read every post everywhere so it is getting interesting... Even if there is no bases of anything and it is just time consuming. Keep up the good work. Read your posts frequently here.


 
hahah lol you seem to be really pissed of that guy haha , lol hota ha 

N BTW thx man


----------



## Mani2020

Khan Sahab said:


> Ofcourse that is implied that FC-20 radar will have longer range and better sensors due to more room but its almost like saying FC-20 is a bigger JFT? Both are manoeuvrable and have same weapons. Only range and payload is smaller in Thunder.
> Also I wanted to know how much will the usage of composite materials increase T/W ratios of both aircrafts?


 
Delta wings are more suitable for high altitudes where as conventional wings are more suited to lower altitudes , so FC-20 being a delta wing will fullfill the higher altitude needs of PAF while jf-17 will be used for relatively lower altitudes , Also FC-20 can carry more weapon loads than jf-17 and also has more combat radius , bigger nose of FC-20 can accommodate a bigger radar thus more range , more advance avionics and so on

F-16's, F-15's and F-18's have many weapons in common so will you say that f-18 is the bigger f-16 and f-15 is the bigger f-18?


----------



## Khan Sahab

Mani2020 said:


> Delta wings are more suitable for high altitudes where as conventional wings are more suited to lower altitudes , so FC-20 being a delta wing will fullfill the higher altitude needs of PAF while jf-17 will be used for relatively lower altitudes , Also FC-20 can carry more weapon loads than jf-17 and also has more combat radius , bigger nose of FC-20 can accommodate a bigger radar thus more range , more advance avionics and so on
> 
> F-16's, F-15's and F-18's have many weapons in common so will you say that f-18 is the bigger f-16 and f-15 is the bigger f-18?


 
I stand corrected. Both being MR will complement each others role... Actually I wasn't critical of FC20, I was more like pleased with the great enhancements Thunder is getting.

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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...houldve-invested-more-j-10s-6.html#post365392

khan sahib , this post might interest you


----------



## Khan Sahab

ANTIBODY said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...houldve-invested-more-j-10s-6.html#post365392
> 
> khan sahib , this post might interest you


 
Thank you. That was informative.


----------



## houshanghai

hasnain0099 said:


> I have seen the pics for Navalized J-10 known as J-10AH (???) will post them soon as pic loading is blocked from my office


 
sorry,sir, Perhaps I am wrong,j10c is existed again.
today,pupu said cac are developing j10c and v-head jft now&#12290;imo,the new j10c(pupu said) maybe a silent j10.time prove his word.

link;
cf

google translate

http://translate.google.com/transla...=viewthread&tid=1175227&page=6&authorid=31490


another cdf link about j10c

http://translate.google.com/transla...u=http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-1175986-1-1.html


video ;cac 29.June

è¿&#8216;è·æ&#8249;æ¼20è¯&#8226;é£&#382;å&#339;° æ¼10æ&#710;&#732;æ&#339;ºå&#339;¨æ&#339;ºåº&#8220;é&#8482;å&#8364;&#8482; - è§&#8224;é¢&#8216; - ä¼&#732;é&#8230;·è§&#8224;é¢&#8216; - å&#339;¨çº¿è§&#8218;ç&#339;&#8249;

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## Mani2020

houshanghai said:


> sorry,sir, Perhaps I am wrong,j10c is existed again.
> today,pupu said cac are developing j10c and *v-head jft* now&#12290;imo,the new j10c(pupu said) maybe a silent j10.time prove his word.
> 
> link;
> cf
> 
> google translate
> 
> Google Translate
> 
> 
> video ;cac 29.June
> 
> è¿&#8216;è·æ&#8249;æ¼20è¯&#8226;é£&#382;å&#339;° æ¼10æ&#710;&#732;æ&#339;ºå&#339;¨æ&#339;ºåº&#8220;é&#8482;å&#8364;&#8482; - è§&#8224;é¢&#8216; - ä¼&#732;é&#8230;·è§&#8224;é¢&#8216; - å&#339;¨çº¿è§&#8218;ç&#339;&#8249;


 
V-head jft? confused, can you throw some light on it houshanghai


----------



## SQ8

houshanghai said:


> sorry,sir, Perhaps I am wrong,j10c is existed again.
> today,pupu said cac are developing j10c and v-head jft now&#12290;imo,the new j10c(pupu said) maybe a silent j10.time prove his word.
> 
> link;
> cf
> 
> google translate
> 
> Google Translate
> 
> 
> video ;cac 29.June
> 
> è¿&#8216;è·æ&#8249;æ¼20è¯&#8226;é£&#382;å&#339;° æ¼10æ&#710;&#732;æ&#339;ºå&#339;¨æ&#339;ºåº&#8220;é&#8482;å&#8364;&#8482; - è§&#8224;é¢&#8216; - ä¼&#732;é&#8230;·è§&#8224;é¢&#8216; - å&#339;¨çº¿è§&#8218;ç&#339;&#8249;


 
Cant get a word of google translate on the first link.
Talks about Viagra scavengers.
Can you sum up the posts..


----------



## Mani2020

Santro said:


> Cant get a word of google translate on the first link.
> *Talks about Viagra scavengers*.
> Can you sum up the posts..


 
order it man , what are you waiting for :p


----------



## VelocuR

Santro said:


> Cant get a word of google translate on the first link.
> Talks about Viagra scavengers.
> Can you sum up the posts..


 


Mani2020 said:


> order it man , what are you waiting for :p


 
 

Hey, please back to topic.


----------



## houshanghai

Santro said:


> Cant get a word of google translate on the first link.
> Talks about Viagra scavengers.
> Can you sum up the posts..



 Viagra scavengers &#65292;chinese word means weige.he is jft and j20's chief designer.

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## SQ8

houshanghai said:


> Viagra scavengers &#65292;chinese word means weige.he is jft and j20's chief designer.
> 
> What is pupu talking about as a sum.
> I understand from the google translation in his second post that there is another large bomber in development??

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## houshanghai

Mani2020 said:


> V-head jft? confused, can you throw some light on it houshanghai


sorry,pupu has released no further details about the v-head jft
but imo&#65292;v-head &#65292;single vertical tail is certain.




Santro said:


> houshanghai said:
> 
> 
> 
> Viagra scavengers &#65292;chinese word means weige.he is jft and j20's chief designer.
> 
> What is pupu talking about as a sum.
> I understand from the google translation in his second post that there is another large bomber in development??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pupu said the fighter- bomber is a sac jxx project.
Click to expand...

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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> V-head jft? confused, can you throw some light on it houshanghai


He is referring to the rumored JFT varient whos pic appeared a while ago with reshaped nose (diamond), like that of J-20

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## Riz

houshanghai said:


> sorry,pupu has released no further details about the v-head jft
> but imo,v-head ,single vertical tail is certain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Santro said:
> 
> 
> 
> pupu said the fighter- bomber is a sac jxx project.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> single verticle tail ? How it is possible ?
Click to expand...


----------



## Mani2020

riz1978 said:


> single verticle tail ? How it is possible ?


 
He was talking about single verticle tail of new jf-17 block 2 not of J-xx

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## ice_man

houshanghai said:


> Viagra scavengers &#65292;chinese word means weige.he is jft and j20's chief designer.


 

he looks like the guy from hangover the chinese dude


----------



## fuse

Bro that was a useless post. I can also say that he looks like Bobby Lee from MadTv, or a constipated Jackie Chan. The point is, where are J-10 for PAF?


----------



## houshanghai

ice_man said:


> he looks like the guy from hangover the chinese dude


 
sorry,sir. It is only the same pronunciation for english words and chinese words of different origins.actually,it is a an error of google translate .this is a very nice joke.but please respect the man.YangWei (weige)is not only the chief deisigner of jf17,j10s,j10b,j20 but also the chairman of CAC&#12290;

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## Mani2020

ice_man said:


> he looks like the guy from hangover the chinese dude


 
really amateurish on your part,


----------



## Adnan2k

Silk said:


> Mani my friend, we should not use Pshamim, Eaglehannan or Munir as source but Rookh aka Adnan2k as one reliable source... Just read that after being banned on Pakdef...But I do read every post everywhere so it is getting interesting... Even if there is no bases of anything and it is just time consuming. Keep up the good work. Read your posts frequently here.


 
Hehe so you're the new spokesperson for PakDef on Def.Pk huh? Nice...im gonna have fun with you! And who said im banned from PakDef? I'm already there under a diff name  Good luck finding me! And screaming? If there was a post like that then you would have presented it here which you haven't. Oopss 
And thanks for reposing the trust in me regards asking  PAF isn't getting the FC-20/J-10 anytime soon. Not in the next 5 years at least or even more. As much as I wanna see the J-10/FC-20 flying in PAF colours its not happening. So continue on counting the days.


----------



## Donatello

Adnan2k said:


> Hehe so you're the new spokesperson for PakDef on Def.Pk huh? Nice...im gonna have fun with you! And who said im banned from PakDef? I'm already there under a diff name  Good luck finding me! And screaming? If there was a post like that then you would have presented it here which you haven't. Oopss
> And thanks for reposing the trust in me regards asking  PAF isn't getting the FC-20/J-10 anytime soon. Not in the next 5 years at least or even more. As much as I wanna see the J-10/FC-20 flying in PAF colours its not happening. So continue on counting the days.


 

I guess the MODs can ban you again?


----------



## Silk

Adnan2k said:


> Hehe so you're the new spokesperson for PakDef on Def.Pk huh? Nice...im gonna have fun with you! And who said im banned from PakDef? I'm already there under a diff name  Good luck finding me! And screaming? If there was a post like that then you would have presented it here which you haven't. Oopss
> And thanks for reposing the trust in me regards asking  PAF isn't getting the FC-20/J-10 anytime soon. Not in the next 5 years at least or even more. As much as I wanna see the J-10/FC-20 flying in PAF colours its not happening. So continue on counting the days.



You have something hostile. Why can't we communicate normal. And if you think I am active on pakdef to find you there? I like the place to get sometimes news. I am not interested in posters that are banned and keep returning back. I am not like you. But I do ask you to provide some insights. You seem to have written here and there that you know more. About screaming. I do not need to go on Keymag to defame Pakdef, its mods, its posters just like you did here... I just ask you what you know. But seriously... 

-You ask me who said you were banned... It is written under your name in Pakdef. I think that is new to you? Why would you start another ID? Was it rhetoric?
-Active under a new name.. So? I am here, you are probably everywhere. I do not care. I hope you start contributing instead of degrading.
-You do not know where you were screaming? Here just before a senior corrected you. There on keymag where another senior warned you. On Pakdef where they banned you.I think you tend to forget what you write. You long for attention. Notorious.
-I am not sure how old you are but you have no manners and i disagree with PSHAMIM about you posting good things in the past. You only post crap. Nada. Nothing.
-Sofar your wisdom about whether PAF is getting or not J-10/FC20. No value. Just a statement. It was indeed adding nothing to what Mani already wrote. We do not need to ask you anything. So what is next. Shouting at Keymag that you are banned here? And it is indeed funny to use Pakistani ID (adnan) or avatar but then say that you are not Pakistani...

It is funny to see that you try to change subject and start asking a lot more questions. Do you really have knowledge of anything?


----------



## SQ8

Alright people.. nuff with the personal chit chat.
If you have something positive to contribute, please do so.
If you have a viewpoint to express, please do so.. but dont try to shove it down the others throat.


----------



## Windjammer

Not sure if these have been posted before, but weapon bays on the J-20 PACK A PUNCH.

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## houshanghai

it is possible that a information about PAF J10. China to buy 123 AL-31FN engines from Russia

the fresh batch of al31fn will Increasing total thrust of engine by the rumor
infs
China to buy 123 AL-31FN engines from Russia
Posted on 03 July 2011 by admin Print This Post



2011-07-04 (China Military News cited from bloomberg.com and written by Jack Jordan) -- China's Ministry of Defense signed a contract to buy Russian aircraft engines worth $500 million in early June, Vedomosti reported, citing an unidentified personsource close to Russia&#8217;s state arms-selling agency and an unidentified manager of an aviation company.
The contract is for 123 AL-31FN engines by 2013, the first 13 of which will be delivered later this year, the newspaper said.

link;
China to buy 123 AL-31FN engines from Russia|China Military Power Mashup



original links;

http://www.vedomosti.ru/newspaper/article/263213/motor_kitaya

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## Dil Pakistan

which other fighters use AL-31FN engines


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## SBD-3

houshanghai said:


> it is possible that a information about PAF J10. China to buy 123 AL-31FN engines from Russia
> 
> the fresh batch of al31fn will Increasing total thrust of engine by the rumor
> infs
> China to buy 123 AL-31FN engines from Russia
> Posted on 03 July 2011 by admin Print This Post
> 
> 
> 
> 2011-07-04 (China Military News cited from bloomberg.com and written by Jack Jordan) -- China's Ministry of Defense signed a contract to buy Russian aircraft engines worth $500 million in early June, Vedomosti reported, citing an unidentified personsource close to Russia&#8217;s state arms-selling agency and an unidentified manager of an aviation company.
> The contract is for 123 AL-31FN engines by 2013, the first 13 of which will be delivered later this year, the newspaper said.
> 
> link;
> China to buy 123 AL-31FN engines from Russia|China Military Power Mashup
> 
> 
> 
> original links;
> 
> ÂÅÄÎÌÎÑÒÈ - Ìîòîð Êèòàÿ


 
So amiarraul was right, there was a major setback in engine......


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## houshanghai

hasnain0099 said:


> So amiarraul was right, there was a major setback in engine......


 lol bro,You have been taken in
there wasn't any major setback in ws15 engine
amiarraul cheated indian only. 
if you do not believe me.You can ask him about it.

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## SBD-3

houshanghai said:


> lol bro,You have been taken in
> there wasn't any major setback in ws15 engine
> amiarraul cheated indian only.
> if you do not believe me.You can ask him about it.


Okey................


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## Dil Pakistan

Dil Pakistan said:


> which other fighters use AL-31FN engines


 
AL-31FN is used by SU-27 and probably SU-37 as well !!! IS IT TRUE ?


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## abaseen99

Eurofighter Typhoon vs J-10B / FC-20 Comparison


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## SBD-3

houshanghai said:


> lol bro,You have been taken in
> there wasn't any major setback in ws15 engine
> amiarraul cheated indian only.
> if you do not believe me.You can ask him about it.


What about testing? I havent seen a single picture with the evidence of active weapon testing.All the pix leaked till now are indicative of flight testing. If my suspecion are true, then we can expect some delay in intital production (as J-10 was expected to go into production line in the last quarter of 2010, i guess)


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## houshanghai

hasnain0099 said:


> What about testing? I havent seen a single picture with the evidence of active weapon testing.All the pix leaked till now are indicative of flight testing. If my suspecion are true, then we can expect some delay in intital production (as J-10 was expected to go into production line in the last quarter of 2010, i guess)


 
Actually,j10b was not made public like j10a or j20 in China. it is very mysterious to all chinese military fans too.But according to some chengdu military fans said the quantity j10a is getting less and less in CAC,maybe CAC are prepared to change the plant over to J10B production.

They took 2 pics of the jft pt 06 in CAC yesterday










btw,some cders said that they had seen chinese version AIM120D&#65288;smaller a lot than sd10a) in SAC and posted the pics of new missile in cdf .Unfortunately,the pic was quickly deleted by the mod of cdf. 

link
?AIM120D?| ?? - ??? - powered by phpwind.net

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## SBD-3

houshanghai said:


> Actually,j10b was not made public like j10a or j20 in China. it is very mysterious to all chinese military fans too.But according to some chengdu military fans said the quantity j10a is getting less and less in CAC,maybe CAC are prepared to change the plant over to J10B production.
> 
> They took 2 pics of the jft pt 06 in CAC yesterday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> btw,some cders said that they had seen chinese version AIM120D&#65288;smaller a lot than sd10a) in SAC and posted the pics of new missile in cdf .Unfortunately,the pic was quickly deleted by the mod of cdf.
> 
> link
> ?AIM120D?| ?? - ??? - powered by phpwind.net


 
Thats what surprises me, J-10B is not a top secret project like J-20. Its initial leaks were out eralier than J-20. But now, though more and more of J-20 Pics appear on the internet everyday, yet the J-10B is suddenly off the canvas. Perhaps a reason is lack of interest of Chinese fora in J-10B given J-20,J-15,JH-7B and stuff. Its been a very long time since we had a solid update on J-10B. There were only 3 leaks (if i am counting right) after taxing trials of J-10B. None else has come out

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## Silk

I think that the reason we see less J10b is because the frame is tested only. They did a lot of flights in the beginning. All the needed to test is how it behaves with different inlet. So now it is probably readied for full production. We saw J10B with a different radar. That can only done after flight testing has been done.

The smaller SD10c for JF17 is probably for multiple launch pylons. And it will be possible to add it on wingtip. PAF does not need the 90km range. And longer range does mean more time for opponent to evade. You do not want you missiles ending in India so they can test it. I think the small RCS of JF17 can evolve in closer range BVR tactic. Less weight and smaller missile means more missiles carried during combat.

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## SQ8

Silk said:


> I think that the reason we see less J10b is because the frame is tested only. They did a lot of flights in the beginning. All the needed to test is how it behaves with different inlet. So now it is probably readied for full production. We saw J10B with a different radar. That can only done after flight testing has been done.
> 
> The smaller SD10c for JF17 is probably for multiple launch pylons. And it will be possible to add it on wingtip. PAF does not need the 90km range. And longer range does mean more time for opponent to evade. You do not want you missiles ending in India so they can test it. I think the small RCS of JF17 can evolve in closer range BVR tactic. Less weight and smaller missile means more missiles carried during combat.



Generally .. missiles have a self destruct mechanism in case they miss their target .. specifically to keep them from falling into the enemy's hands.
Considering the short flight times between the MOB's and FOB's of India and Pakistan.. Long range missiles are operationally a problem for any pre-war scenario.. since you need to confirm hostile intent. A jet may come within ten miles of the no-man's land and then make a turn elsewhere... and you would have a scrambled jet in air waiting for an incident.
How does one tell that a formation of mirage 2000's is on a transit flight and not on a strike mission?
Once a war starts.. and its no holds barred, long range shots will be crucial to ensuring a strike formation goes through.


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## Silk

{Considering the short flight times between the MOB's and FOB's of India and Pakistan.. Long range missiles are operationally a problem for any pre-war scenario.. since you need to confirm hostile intent. A jet may come within ten miles of the no-man's land and then make a turn elsewhere... and you would have a scrambled jet in air waiting for an incident.}

Pre-war is indeed the issue. In war everything is shot at. And we have seen MKI during Red Flag that they indeed shoot at everything.

{How does one tell that a formation of mirage 2000's is on a transit flight and not on a strike mission?
Once a war starts.. and its no holds barred, long range shots will be crucial to ensuring a strike formation goes through.}

With long range weapons like Scalp, Babur, Ra'ad you only be sure when checking their RCS or getting a much better insight (when they are airborne) info. And even in case of Ra'ad. We can use Babur. So I think in the next 4-5 years there will be no real dedicated a2g missions like we had in the past. Airforce will move to air superiority. UAV's for recon. Smart weapons for a2g. But I can be wrong...


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## houshanghai

chinese version AIM - 120D AMRAAM 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-defence/118659-chinese-version-aim-120d-amraam.html


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## cloneman

That's J-10A Vs.J-11A(Su-27SK),the result is no surprising.It would be interesting to see what's the result of J10A Vs.J-11B.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I admire the J10B for it is a unique chinese plane with Chinese identity , J11 is wonderful too but I just love J10B

May be its the Delta wing (triangle shape) or the amazing agility of the fight I mean J10B is a PANTHER .... if F16 was a cheeta


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## SBD-3

A rare pic of J-10


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## Luftwaffe

Saw a similar CFTs to be be developed for Typhoon 2020
http://cencio4.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/eurofighter-2020.jpg

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## SQ8

hasnain0099 said:


> A rare pic of J-10


 
The way the pic is done.. leaves a lot of doubt in one's mind about its authenticity.
However.. it may very well be a real pic.


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## SBD-3

Santro said:


> The way the pic is done.. leaves a lot of doubt in one's mind about its authenticity.
> However.. it may very well be a real pic.


Here is an enlarged Image...may be some Chinese friend can clear things up


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## Mani2020

hasnain0099 said:


> A rare pic of J-10


 
Looks a photoshopped ,also look at the jet parked next to it doesn't have CFt's to it


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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> Looks a photoshopped ,also look at the jet parked next to it doesn't have CFt's to it


its the first production aircraft thus it may be undergoing weapons testing. Its not necessary that all the J-10s be equipped with CFTs at the same time


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## houshanghai

I think it is ps&#12290;j10 haven't CFT version now

---------- Post added at 12:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:00 AM ----------

I think it is ps.j10 haven't CFT version now

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## Arsalan

here is a link to an interesting article. giving step by step evaluation of the J-10 and J-10B with pics.
Chengdu J-10
i hope you guys will like it.


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## abaseen99

China's First Master Designer

July 5, 2011: After years of trying to keep it a secret, China has confirmed that one of their aircraft engineers, Yang Wei, is actually one of those extraordinary designers who produces one successful design after another. Born in 1963, he graduated from college at age 19 and finished graduate school three years later. He soon went to work at the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute, and a decade later was appointed director. So far, he has designed a working fly-by-wire system, as well as the JF-17, J-10B and J-20. He did not design the original J-10, but did design the most successful version, the J-10B, and provided important upgrades for other J-10 models. The new J-20 (a stealth design that is still in development) is less of a surprise now that it's known the Chinese have a genuine ace designer working on it.
Ace aircraft designers are rare, and those that do show up tend to create a number of exceptional designs during a few decades (or much less, if there's a war going on). For example, Russian designer Mikhail Simonov recently died (at age 81). He was responsible for the Su-24 bomber, the Su-25 ground attack plane and the Su-27 fighter. Starting during World War II, for example, one American designer (who was trained in Germany), Edgar Schmued, designed the P-51, followed by the F-86 and F-100 after the war. In Germany, Willie Messerschmitt designed the Me-109, Me-110 and the first jet fighter (Me-262) plus several others during World War II, and a few after the war.

In China, Yang Wei appears to be the first designer in this tradition. He had nothing to do with the original J-10, the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. That appears to explain the many problems this aircraft has had. The J-10 was an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful. Work on the J-10 began over twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that would be comparable to the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16. But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were continued problems, and it wasn't until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller flaws. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J-10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia. The J-10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J-10 has only one engine. Yang Wei improved the J-10 considerably with his J-10B version.

But it was the JF-17 (also known as FC-1) that made Yang Mei's reputation. The JF-17 was developed by China in cooperation with Pakistan, which originally only wanted to buy 150 of them. All this came about because Pakistan could not get modern fighters from anyone else, and turned to China. At the time, China had nothing comparable to the early model F-16s Pakistan already had. The 13 ton JF-17 is meant to be a low cost alternative to the American F-16. The JF-17 is considered the equal to earlier versions of the F-16, but only 80 percent as effective as more recent F16 models. The JF-17 design is based on a cancelled Russian project, the MiG-33. Originally, Pakistan wanted Western electronics in the JF-17, but because of the risk of Chinese technology theft, and pressure from the United States (who did not want China to steal more Western aviation electronics), the JF-17 uses Chinese and Pakistani electronics.

The JF-17 can carry 3.6 tons of weapons and uses radar guided and heat seeking missiles. It has max speed of nearly 2,000 kilometers an hour, an operating range of 1,300 kilometers and a max altitude of nearly 18,000 meters (55,000 feet). China has not yet decided on whether it will use the FC-1/JF-17 itself. This is apparently because China believes its own J-10 and J-11 (a license built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped, but that's another matter.Warplanes: China's First Master Designer

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## Riseup

abaseen99 said:


> China has not yet decided on whether it will use the FC-1/JF-17 itself. This is apparently because China believes its own J-10 and J-11 (a license built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped, but that's another matter.



I don&#8217;t know what is going in the head of Chinese authority on acquiring FC-1 and FC-20 but I believe that Pakistan badly need such a kind of equipment at this time in her inventory in current circumstances and current production line of both equipment would need to work hard to fulfill this requirement. I think this is the point might preventing China to acquire these equipments. At least they have already J-10 and J-11 that could fulfill their current requirement. 

We are thankful of Chinese on this regards.


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## SBD-3

Riseup said:


> I don&#8217;t know what is going in the head of Chinese authority on acquiring FC-1 and FC-20 but I believe that Pakistan badly need such a kind of equipment at this time in her inventory in current circumstances and current production line of both equipment would need to work hard to fulfill this requirement. I think this is the point might preventing China to acquire these equipments. At least they have already J-10 and J-11 that could fulfill their current requirement.
> 
> We are thankful of Chinese on this regards.


The moment they signed off for FC-1, they had no alternatives available for themselves with J-10 being in initial stages going through tweaks. Thanks to flurry of developments in Chinese aviation industry, now PLAAF has more choice and altogather different operational requirements. JFT still fitts well into PAF's operational requirements. And let me tell you, even if exports are made, the export varients will be significantly different from JFT. PAF has histroically seen its procurment decisions independent from PLAAF. It didn't acquire J-7s because PLAAF had it flying but rather optimized to meet her own requirements. The same is the case with JFT. If it were a so called "cheap and inferior" aircraft it would not have been aclaimed and promoted by international defence media. Lastly as I said over and over again, JFT/FC-1 is a JV between CAC and PAF not PLAAF and PAF. So since the PLAAF did not contribute development costs, the cost of JFT for them would not be the same as for PAF. PLAAF funded J-10 and other projects, which means that Price tag of J-10/J-11 for PLAAF would be more attractive than even JFT, not to forget they can spend more.

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## Riseup

hasnain0099 said:


> The moment they signed off for FC-1, they had no alternatives available for themselves with J-10 being in initial stages going through tweaks. Thanks to flurry of developments in Chinese aviation industry, now PLAAF has more choice and altogather different operational requirements. JFT still fitts well into PAF's operational requirements. And let me tell you, even if exports are made, the export varients will be significantly different from JFT. PAF has histroically seen its procurment decisions independent from PLAAF. It didn't acquire J-7s because PLAAF had it flying but rather optimized to meet her own requirements. The same is the case with JFT. If it were a so called "cheap and inferior" aircraft it would not have been aclaimed and promoted by international defence media. Lastly as I said over and over again, JFT/FC-1 is a JV between CAC and PAF not PLAAF and PAF. So since the PLAAF did not contribute development costs, the cost of JFT for them would not be the same as for PAF. PLAAF funded J-10 and other projects, which means that Price tag of J-10/J-11 for PLAAF would be more attractive than even JFT, not to forget they can spend more.


 
Hence the question is that FC-20 is joint venture between PAF, PLAAF and CAC or all modification is according and fulfills the requirement of PAF?


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## abaseen99




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## abaseen99

Riseup said:


> Hence the question is that FC-20 is joint venture between PAF, PLAAF and CAC or all modification is according and fulfills the requirement of PAF?


 read the fc20 MRCA from begning you will be find your answe


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## houshanghai

China order 123 AL-31
http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-defence/118524-china-order-123-al-31-a.html

*fr6*, who works in the AVIC'S electronics industry and he is one of the most reliable members in Chinese defence forums

he said that these new AL31FN(j10) are *export* and spare parts(PLAAF j10).



link;Google Translate

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## houshanghai

today,huzigeng said the j10's contract of PAF had been signed early with avic and these planes are j10A and j10S ???? 
If this true,it seems like j10B isnot still matured and need to continue testing in CATC
In addition, the current j10B haven't double-seated version and also not easy to training.


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## SBD-3

houshanghai said:


> today,huzigeng said the j10's contract of PAF had been signed early with avic and these planes are j10A and j10S ????
> If this true,it seems like j10B isnot still matured and need to continue testing in CATC
> In addition, the current j10B haven't double-seated version and also not easy to training.


Well I suspected the same, there hasn't been any weapons testing leaks on J-10B.But CAC has effectively closed J-10A production lines since last year according to Tphung. In his view CAC was gearing up for J-10B production.

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## houshanghai

hasnain0099 said:


> Well I suspected the same, there hasn't been any weapons testing leaks on J-10B.But CAC has effectively closed J-10A production lines since last year according to Tphung. In his view CAC was gearing up for J-10B production.


 
if this true,I think the reason maybe because the time for the date of delivery has been moved up about 3 years &#65311;&#65311;&#65311;&#65311;&#65311;

well, anyway We should know j10a or j10b by the end of this year


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## SBD-3

houshanghai said:


> if this true,I think the reason maybe because the time for the date of delivery has been moved up about 3 years old&#65311;&#65311;&#65311;&#65311;&#65311;
> 
> well, anyway We should know j10a or j10b by the end of this year


 
I ll try to get a confirmation and post back........

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## Areesh

hasnain0099 said:


> Well I suspected the same, there hasn't been any weapons testing leaks on J-10B.But CAC has effectively closed J-10A production lines since last year according to Tphung. In his view CAC was gearing up for J-10B production.


 
Hey hey. Does that means no J10b for PAF??? Looks like a bit disappointing situation!!!


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## SBD-3

Areesh said:


> Hey hey. Does that means no J10b for PAF??? Looks like a bit disappointing situation!!!


 
Rather a stop gap I suspect, There is a difference between J-10 and J-10A which is thought to be with upgrades over baseline J-10 fighters, the examples of J-10A are in service with PLAAF.


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## SBD-3

here is a nice summery on the J-10 Variants 


> J-10 = original prototypes, pre-serials + prodction models in Block 01 - 03
> J-10S = original twin-seater
> 
> J-10A and AS = improved production type from Block 04 on - currently Block 06 is under delivery - including SAT-nav, IFR-probe ...
> ... included in this block are the (maybe) so called AH and ASH machines for the PLANAF
> 
> J-10AY and SY = PLAAF-demo team machines
> 
> J-10B (and most likely BS) = revised type with DSI


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## Bratva

houshanghai said:


> today,huzigeng said the j10's contract of PAF had been signed early with avic and these planes are j10A and j10S ????
> If this true,it seems like j10B isnot still matured and need to continue testing in CATC
> In addition, the current j10B haven't double-seated version and also not easy to training.


 
Well there is some collision with our sources, they have clearly said that it will be J-10B, or might be mix of J-10 A and B. And currently as we speaking PAF pilots are being trained in China to Fly J-10


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## Areesh

hasnain0099 said:


> Rather a stop gap I suspect, There is a difference between J-10 and J-10A which is thought to be with upgrades over baseline J-10 fighters, the examples of J-10A are in service with PLAAF.


 
But J-10A production line are closed by CAC. And there isn't any news or leak about J-10b either. So we are in a lot of confusion right now about J-10b project. Hopefully things would clarify soon.


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## SBD-3

Areesh said:


> But J-10A production line are closed by CAC. And there isn't any news or leak about J-10b either. So we are in a lot of confusion right now about J-10b project. Hopefully things would clarify soon.


 
A possibility may be a short term lease till J-10B becomes operational......


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## abaseen99




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## Luftwaffe

If news such as JFT BlkII with redesign frontal nose cone is floating around then it could be possible for J-10B so far no clear images of that block. Parameters changes. The recent coming up upgrades of Rafale and Typhoon and Gripen NG upgrades could possibly have delayed the development and upgrades of J-10B which seems logical not to remain behind these technological superior strike fighters.


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## Manticore

it would be wise to lower fc20 's rcs and perhaps we would see the rumoured tech of diamond shaped frontal fuselage being moved over to fc20 aswell -- this might take some time and as a stop gap measure china might be giving 50jft blk2 rather quickly..


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## SBD-3

ANTIBODY said:


> it would be wise to lower fc20 's rcs and perhaps we would see the rumoured tech of diamond shaped frontal fuselage being moved over to fc20 aswell -- this might take some time and as a stop gap measure china might be giving 50jft blk2 rather quickly..


But how much further lower can you take it? essentially a certain reduction can be achieved without changing the design characteristics e.g. DSI, RAM etc but for further reduction a redesign is necessary, like canted tails, shape change. Considering the current design would be optimized for performance, a redsign would mean modifying current equation and then re resolving it for optimum solution, a considerable labour and time consuming phenomenon in itself.


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## SBD-3

Luftwaffe said:


> If news such as JFT BlkII with redesign frontal nose cone is floating around then it could be possible for J-10B so far no clear images of that block. Parameters changes. The recent coming up upgrades of Rafale and Typhoon and Gripen NG upgrades could possibly have delayed the development and upgrades of J-10B which seems logical not to remain behind these technological superior strike fighters.


If that is would have been the case, then JFT approach would have been adopted i.e. implementing ongoing developments on continuous basis. It does not make sense to withhold a design just because of a consitant varible of technology. Rafale, Typhoon and NG all have taken the same path of induction of technologies on ongoing basis then why not FC-20


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## cloneman

Areesh said:


> But J-10A production line are closed by CAC. And there isn't any news or leak about J-10b either. So we are in a lot of confusion right now about J-10b project. Hopefully things would clarify soon.


 
There are acturally three stages to get IOC for the PLA's fighter.Take the J-10B as an example,in the first stage it's prototype had being designed and built in the CAC which you can take photoes since the CAC localises in the central Chengdu and there's no such seriouse military background and security guard,that's why you see the recent J-20 and UAV's picture.Everybody can take shoots in Chengdu.
In the second stage,the J-10B was sent to the AVIC test cental in Yanlian for weapon integration,testing and all kinds of flight test.It has strong militry background and heavy security,only insiders can leak something there.After the testing,the CAC will start to produce a small batch of J-10B for the PLAAF test cental in Changzhou which it's in the stage three.
In Changzhou,the PLAAF will make all kinds of combat test and write the user manu for the J-10B,then induct it to the PLAAF.At this point the CAC can massivelly produce it.As far as I know,the J-10B just finished the stage two and returned back from Yanlian,the next step is to send it to the PLAAF testing cental for real combat test.

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## Areesh

^^^
Thanks for the post dear. Now that clarifies the situation a lot.


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## houshanghai

*Is it me, or the J-10 looked alot larger than the J-20 as it passed by, 0:10 secs. Note, the J-20 is closer to the camera as the J-10 momentarily disappears behind the J-20 as it passes by to get to the main taxi-way!*

*by Dizasta(other forum)*



two others

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## Windjammer



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## Bratva

Windjammer said:


>


 
Looking very sleek, is It J-10A?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Wonderful plane perfect for our national defence from enemies of Pakistan specially sitting on west


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## Stealth_fighter




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## Stealth_fighter




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## SBD-3

Rumored Display Unit for J-10B


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## S-A-B-E-R->

hasnain0099 said:


> Rumored Display Unit for J-10B


 
if it is then yeep kiay M****R F**K**  this is some cool loking display


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## SBD-3

some more interesting news


> Russia Signed AL-31 Engine Deal with China
> According to the report of Russia media Kommersant, the Russian state-owned arms trading company Rosoboroneksport has concluded a US$300 million deal for the export of 100 *modified* AL-31FN turbofan engines from the Salyut Moscow Machine Building Production Enterprise to China. These engine will be fitted on the PLA Air Force&#8217;s latest indigenous J-10 fighter aircraft.
> 
> The report confirmed the earlier speculation that *China had received 54 Salyut-made AL-31FP turbofan engines for a test fleet of J-10s between 2002 and 2004*. Later Salyut, through Rosoboroneksport, successfully negotiated the sale of the engine for mass production of the fighter aircraft.
> 
> An official of Salyut stated that the deal, which is the latest of their deals with China, is for 100 modified AL-31FN engines worth more than US$300 million. *He clearly confirmed that these engines will not be installed Russian-made fighters, but Chinese*. &#8220;The contract allows us to enlarge the spectrum of our collaboration with China while avoiding ties to production only of engines of the Sukhoi family,&#8221; he said.
> 
> Salyut services and renovates engines for Su-27SK and Su-30MK2 fighters delivered to Beijing previously. A US$100 million contract was recently concluded for the delivery of parts for those engines over the next three years. It is understood that Salyut signed that contract directly, since it has a five-year license for the independent delivery of spare parts and technical servicing. It received that license in September 2002.
> 
> Experts say that the total demand of China for AL-31FN engines is 250, which could earn Russia about $900 million. Obviously, after receipt of the first lot of engines, China will sign a new contract with Salyut.
> 
> The contract with Salyut is the second within three months for the delivery of Russian engines for Chinese fighter planes. At the beginning of April, Rosoboroneksport signed a contract with Beijing for the sale of 100 RD-93 engines for the new Chinese FC-1 for $267 million. The engine was developed by the Klimov plant based on the RD-33 used in the improved MiG-29. Mass production of the RD-93 for China will be carried out at the Chernyshev plant in Moscow. Beijing's total demand for RD-93 will be about 500 pieces.


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## Donatello

hasnain0099 said:


> Rumored Display Unit for J-10B


 
The plane that the display is showing, is definitely J-20.


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## SBD-3

penumbra said:


> The plane that the display is showing, is definitely J-20.


There may be an adaptation to J-10B....this was also rumored that many of the systems developed for J-20 were tested on J-10B


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## PWFI

penumbra said:


> The plane that the display is showing, is definitely J-20.



It's not J-20---because it's single engine while J-20 is double engines


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## krash

penumbra said:


> The plane that the display is showing, is definitely J-20.


 
Well not J-20........you can see the horizontal tail-planes in the display, The J-20 has none.


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## razgriz19

hasnain0099 said:


> Rumored Display Unit for J-10B


 
looks like a copy of F-35 display...


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## SBD-3

razgriz19 said:


> looks like a copy of F-35 display...


Yeah, I was also thinking about it, makes sense as well. While Shape may have been benchmarked against F-22, the Avionics would have been benchmarked against F-35. Best of both worlds.....

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## rcrmj

razgriz19 said:


> looks like a copy of F-35 display...


 
maybe the SAC's J-xx?

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## razgriz19

rcrmj said:


> maybe the SAC's J-xx?


 
true could be for another fifth G fighter, probably same class as f-35...


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## DANGER-ZONE

razgriz19 said:


> looks like a copy of F-35 display...


 


rcrmj said:


> maybe the SAC's J-xx?


 


razgriz19 said:


> true could be for another fifth G fighter, probably same class as f-35...


 
yes that what it is.


> The latest rumor (March 2011) suggested that 611 is working on a downgraded single-engine stealth fighter design (J-2X) which will be export-ready similar to American F-35.
> - Last Updated 5/10/11
> Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force



FC-20/J-10b simulator cockpit was revealed long ago in late 2009 or early 2010, it was also posted on DPK forum but later all images were removed.

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## houshanghai

huzigeng said that j10b's cockpit is only next to f35. there is a bit of an exaggeration about what huzigeng means, perhaps&#12290;

Also,pupu said that PAF standards is very hign in j10B/FC20.There have some minor things that must be upto PAF requirements in j10B/FC20.

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## Xracer

Thanks Bro


houshanghai said:


> huzigeng said that j10b's cockpit is only next to f35. there is a bit of an exaggeration about what huzigeng means, perhaps&#12290;
> 
> Also,pupu said that PAF standards is very hign in FC20.There have some minor things that must be upto PAF requirements in FC20.

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## SBD-3

houshanghai said:


> huzigeng said that j10b's cockpit is only next to f35. there is a bit of an exaggeration about what huzigeng means, perhaps&#12290;
> 
> Also,pupu said that PAF standards is very hign in j10B/FC20.There have some minor things that must be upto PAF requirements in j10B/FC20.


AFAIK, 


> PAF exercised their judgment back in 2007, PAF could either choose to go with large number of F-16s or bring in J-10B. My info on this is, Chinese clearly denied to do anything with J-10 unless the orders of F-16s are cut down


and


> PAF brought in their info on an F-16 version avionics that was to be unveiled in Middle East. In fact the RFP sent to LM was forwarded to Chinese with minor changes (That&#8217;s not my assumption or speculation).


PAF came up with block 60 specs and J-10B is benchmarked against it

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## Manticore

old post by EagleHannan


> ''
> A few weeks ago, I showed the leaked pics to some PAF personal and they agreed that top brass of PAF has always known of this project and the pictures are indeed the J-20. However, like all Pakistani acquisations, we are NOT interested in J-20 as it is. China is where the Stealth 5th generation MRCA will be bought from but that wont exactly be J-20.
> The way PAF deals with and has always delath with Chinese manufacturers (JF-17s are exception) is that we let them present what they have. Then analyse and give them our own requirements and integrate our man power and share information we get from our own sources into the project.
> 
> Eaxmples: F-7MG --> F-7PG (Chinese couldnt come up with avionics so we bought it from theird party back when sun used to shine well in west for PAF)
> J-10 --> J-10B
> 
> LIke I said before, we have no input so far in this J-20. A few have laid eyes on it. My source told me, it will be another J-20 --> J-20-B story when Chinese will put it on Table. Chances are the thing will NOT be on table anytime before 2015. For many reasons, including sales of J-10. Any plane operating with PAF is a free marketing for Chinese companies (I was so proud of it when an AVIC personal said it to me in the presence of PAF personal that the world trusts PAFs standards).
> Chinese want to see J-10B in considerable number before even offering J-20. The money + interest of Chinese companies is in NOT offering Pakistan J-20 unless J-10B is flying with PAF in number.
> PAF exercised their judgment back in 2007, PAF could either choose to go with large number of F-16s or bring in J-10B. My info on this is, Chinese clearly denied to do anything with J-10 unless the orders of F-16s are cut down. PAF did burn their boats after agreeing to it (I am glad they did. Thanks Allah for that) and sent thier team for a long tern partnership with China (Currently located in Chingdu). It was only after then that the Chinese let in PAF/PAC engineers tweak with J-10s and we saw the J-10B.
> Time line for J-20 in small batch can easily be after 2016 and only then PAF might be invited to jump in.
> 
> 
> 
> "It more like you show confidence and commit to the cause." All companies work like it. Chinese business mentality is as such, they want to know before selling if they'll get money or not. It simple plain business. They knew once the funds are allocated to F-16s there is a little chance Pakistan will jump in on J-10B. PAF at that time was not confident on J-10 as a top tier AC. But once Chinese allowed us in on design and avionics, PAF did cut orders for F-16s. I remember when early J-10 cockpit pictures were released, we all concluded that it&#8217;s no better than JF-17 and then near exact layout was brought in on J-10s later since Pakistan committed to J-10B.
> Sir, for J-10s Pakistan is given very generous deal, inshallah I'll write about it when I am permitted to. I must commend Chinese for their business ideas. They knew Pakistan back in 2005/6 is not interested in J-10s and that simply means no market for J-10 outside China as the world sees Pakistan as the launch customer of anything good coming from China. Examples are J6/F-6, J7/F-7, J7MGs/F-7PG and inshallah FC-1/JF-17s. There was no sales of JH-7 and J-8MII, even when they were offered to many and are serving PLAAF in numbers.
> I think, it was PakDef where back in 2006, I wrote that there is serious evaluation of J-10 going on. PAF saw the potential and wanted R&D with Chinese on another version of partially same air frame but improved avionics. PAF brought in their info on an F-16 version avionics that was to be unveiled in Middle East. In fact the RFP sent to LM was forwarded to Chinese with minor changes (That&#8217;s not my assumption or speculation).
> As per Allah's will and thankfully it was in a good way that we finally decided to peal away from US dependence. I can imagine if we would have put our eggs in US basket, what would have been the situation today. "Never again" was rightly exercised.
> Right now, the planned acquisition of J-10B's first batch is in mid of 2013 Inshallah. Engine is a hurdle (this is my speculation). We might not want to go for AL31FN and as per my info WS-10 is not failed but having teething problems, bad ones. Other than that, I confirm the engine is built with high grade materials and new labs are being built to check the manufacturing process for it. This shows commitment and promise. Some PAF personal visiting these labs told me, they are impressed. Nanjing institute is prime contractor for Radar (both Air born and AD. AD team is here already and inshallah we'll see some joint project in AD as well)for PAF.

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## houshanghai

ANTIBODY said:


> old post by EagleHannan


 
infs about j10b engine in the futue

*time have proved pupu said again*

Russian 99M2 turbofan engine(thrust: 150kn)of double secure affirmance for CAC fighter in the future that were in the open.china had been pouring a lot of money into the development of 99m2.
actually,it is a good news to j10x in the future .bcz there are another choice but to chinese ws10x and ws15.
So, see not hard&#12290;china was cautious about turbofan in the future. double secure affirmance is good decision&#12290;

Courtesy Pinko in the other forum


Salut reports its AL31F-M2 turbofan is ready, thrust up from 12.5 tons for the basic version to 14.5 tons for the M2 version.

ÐÐ¾Ð²Ð¾ÑÑ&#8218;Ð¸ Aviation EXplorer: ÐÐ&#376;Ð¦ "Ð¡Ð°Ð»Ñ&#381;Ñ&#8218;" Ð¿Ñ&#8364;ÐµÐ´ÑÑ&#8218;Ð°Ð²Ð¸Ð» Ð½Ð¾Ð²Ñ&#8249;Ðµ Ð´Ð²Ð¸Ð³Ð°Ñ&#8218;ÐµÐ»Ð¸ Ð´Ð»Ñ Ð¸ÑÑ&#8218;Ñ&#8364;ÐµÐ±Ð¸Ñ&#8218;ÐµÐ»ÐµÐ¹ Ð¡Ñ&#402;-27 

Just a while ago. There is the order from CAC for 123 units of AL31FN made by Salut.

Several years ago, reported in its " Super-10 " article that Salut developed AL31-M series for future J10. 

It highlights close relation between CAC & Salut & CAC does value its long term partner.

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## Manticore

i got this from a russian forum--

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## Manticore

its 3 month old and hope , now , its ok to post it--
Google Translate

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## Donatello

ANTIBODY said:


> old post by EagleHannan



You know the plane is Kick-***, when the Chinese guy on the left gives it a Mona lisa look.

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## tanlixiang28776

AESA is confirmed

According to this article by an Employee from NRIET the Active Phased Array for the J 10B has 1152 Transmit and receive modules.

It has also already been tested in a airborne aircraft.

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## Jungibaaz

good news...

Could someone please translate the highlighted pink parts...


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## showstopper

Hold on, that (superb) article posted by Antibody says that the J-10B order was cancelled. That's not true, is it? Induction is still expected in 2014ish?


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## Manticore

if anyone is interested to compare [visually] the lavi and j10 prototypes , here are some good pics of lavi


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## TOPGUN

So no futher news on the PAF FC-20's ?


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## Manticore

Sometimes the interesting information leaks in China are very discreet and you must be careful to collect the puzzles ... Cool

letter of thanks that the Factory 132 (ACC) sent the aviation and aerospace university in Beijing, where we learn more interesting information - Some assembly milestones J-20, that there are two units of J-20 ... etc..

. This letter is addressed particularly to a team of researchers developed a new technique for milling and drilling with high precision ultrasonic vibration machining holes between the wings and the cell J-20, a patent application has been filed in November 2010 and it has access to its information from the month of May

In the patent description on the site of the center of Chinese patents, it says that this technique is used in the "High precision machining of chamfers holes between the aircraft skin composite carbon fiber and the fasteners macro-porous titanium laminate. "

The description of this patent at the site of the center of Chinese patent (In Chinese)


This confirms indirectly expressed in these two images - 









http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...8-combat-aircraft-designs-43.html#post1962837

*
^composte % *


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## Manticore

chinese friends , are these the pics that were removed from the chinese site of the secret chinese missile equavalent to aim120d?













the french aviation fans are really interested in these pics

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## rcrmj

ANTIBODY said:


> chinese friends , are these the pics that were removed from the chinese site of the secret chinese missile equavalent to aim120d?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the french aviation fans are really interested in these pics


 
there were discussions on this mysterious missile```but one major conclusions was this missile will be used by Chinese 5th gen fighters, as weapon bays can fit more shortered fins missiles``


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## Manticore

qouting eaglehannon -- sme new info about j10b between the lines



> I have already reported that FC20/J-10Bs are under going final integration. The numbers and contract was to be announced when Gilani was here this year but for certain reasons the numbers and actual contract was not announced. However, Inshallah this bird is coming. As per last news, I also reported this already, the first 4 are to be recieved by this december. I know it sounds un realistic but so was all that I reported before and was proved right. The information I brought is from serious sources and sometimes they do want things to be known before announced. I leave it to senior members or ex forces people here who got my meaning.
> 
> Now there is another twist to this situation. While AF has clearly stated @ occasions that FC20 is exactly the bird we require for our high end requirement, ball less Gilani and Ghadarri want otherwise. US wants more influence in air force. They want the young officers to have A CHAKKER OF AMRICA to as usual infleunce them. I wish our ex-military people here shed some light on this issue. I critisize them if they decide not to do so. This is how US drills into young officers mind that US is mighty, you cant fight it, you have to listen to it, they are next to God. Go back tell your squadern what you saw and liberalism is professionalism.
> No kidding thats true. Thanks to Allah for 80s embargoes, Officers at higher echelons totally understand that and want to break free from such a politicaly induced drug into air force. Army had the fair share of this drug and we are bearing fruits of it now. I can assure you the project directors and leaders from Paf HAVE NO DOUBT THAT THIS BLOCK52 IS NOT TO BE OUR SPEARHEAD. I was not active here that much so i reported it in another forum. Without any masala tarka added, I quoted them as telling me this.
> 
> That is the answer to your question. The fregin Gilani did not annouce the contract. He is thus far trying to shove F-16s down PAFs throat. Again, its not the F-16s that I call the problem. Its the US leverage on AF I am talking about. Issi bahanay the young officers will be invited to US for long stays followed by all the rest of crap. I quote a Chinese source "Taiwanese dreed PAF and PLAAF Nexus. US hates this co-operation, we are definately doing the things right".
> 
> FC20 is J-10B with serious sensor fusion. While less information is leaked out, it is for sure that IT WILL BE MORE THAN A MATCH FOR ANYTHING ELSE IN OR BROUGHT IN THIS REGION. I reported earlier that "J-10A versions are on active duty along with SU30s in South China Sea and straits of Taiwan". While we are again using our "Amrica is God" galsses to view the situation, J-10A version is already challanging F-18EFs. Proves its worth and gives out a lot about FC20.
> 
> 
> Sir, as responded above, F-16s are definately excellent till FC20 make up numbers but this is NO REASON TO GO FOR another 18. The current F-16 forces is enough for current top tier and future mid tier force. The limited resources should be poured in the FC20.
> I have already reported that PAF pilots are getting trained in Chingdu over the A version and 2 B versions. There are 2 teams conducting testings, Pakistani and Chinese.
> I think FC20 will be inducted straight into operational duties and this will be the first time PAF has tactics and procedures in place even before the platform is inducted (This part is my own speculation)
> 
> Rest assured sensor systems on FC20 are extracted from lessons learnt on Western/American platforms by PAF and Russian systems developed and merged by Chinese. The targeting pods in F-16s are no more exclusive. WMD advertised for JFT is @ par with Sniper pod. LGBs and PGMs are already validated on JFT. Passive sensors are mastered by russians, found on SU and Migs have already found their way on JFT blk2. Thats the beauty of integration. I am all for Chinese way. You only need to have a know how of reverse engineering with quality and add to those modules lessons learnt from other sources. No need of reinvesting the wheel. The resulting product is an integration of many tecs of different origins.
> 
> Based on mentioned realities, i deem the purchase of 18 more F-16s a waste of money, wrong political decission, unnecessary leverage given to US and cause of concern in long run.
> 
> 
> 
> PAF said it on Zhuhai Air Show as well as in Turkey that they speculate WS10A which is different from WS10 now under going trials to mature in 5 years, while Chinese friends claim it to be 3 years at most.
> 
> Now a new development in last 2 months is that China finally placed orders for around 121 AL31FNs. This led us all to safely believe that WS10A is not ready and will not be in next few years for Which Pakistan can not wait. It is not feasible for any operator except likes of China to operate 2 types of engines for the same platform. You can see that because we opted for PW engines for F-16s in 80s, we can not go for GE engines for the same platform now, even though they are bit more powerful than PW ones. All our F-16s are with PW engines. Same is the case here, Pakistan needs FC20 fast and once we procure it with AL31FN. It might not be feasible for us to ever go for WS10As. Simply because we would not want to have operational complexities. It is at present safe to speculate that WS10A might not see service with PAF. We may be operating 2 russian engines for our top tier aircrafts. JFT and FC20.
> 
> 
> Sir while you raised very valid points and I totally understand why you partialy disagree the notion about "Waste of Money". Your points about US and Chinese leverage in the future and the idea of "counter balance" is also correct. I however would urge you to do the cost to benifit analysis.
> 
> While we can induct F-16s very fast and they definately are worthy birds with least hastle to operate, definate tactics in place already, and with infastructure in place, the manufacturer of this bird is "NOT JUST INTO SUPPLY OF GOOD AND MIND ITS OWN BUSINESS". USA can be all sassy as it wants but there are somethings that USA values more than money and that is INFLUENCE. I CAN PRETTY MUCH BET ANYONE HERE THAT USA CAN NOT STOP OUR MILITARY AID, UNTILL AND UNLESS US HAS SOME PLAN TO TAKE Pakistan HEAD ON. That time shall come, very soon but not right now.
> 
> All our top most ranks in AF are people who have been for one reason or other have stayed trained and lived in US , ALL IN THE NAME OF F-16s. We have our SQD ldrs, WCs, BCs and middle tiers which were never sent to US for training in 80s embargo. They never developed the kind of mentality that the likes of current COAS has. Believe it or not, the mid tiers openly have expressed their openion and mentality difference many time, insiders can confirm my position here. The other day, I requested the retired AF people to please come forward and tell the nation about this issue. I have personaly met retired high rankers and now they say it that IT WAS NOT JUST TRAINING AND F-16S, IT WAS THE ENVIRONMENT GIVEN TO THEM, SITUATIONS THEY WERE PUT IN DELIBRATELY that IN ONE SENIOR'S OPENION WAS DANGEROUS, INFLUENTIAL AND HIGLY SUGGESTIVE. Please read between the lines and make up of what I am trying to say here.
> 
> I can bet, there is not a soul symphetic to US in high ranks after the lot of current cheif of air staff. Why so? What sets them apart? Its a shift of mentalities. Its the clash of pre and post US embargo. I wish we break all ties with this US of A. They are suggestive and dangerous influence to all who they are friends with them.
> 
> This is the reason why I dread the F-16, cause US has realized its mistake and knows very well that while they have a poodle on top in AF, this might not be the case after the current top rankers are retired. The next COAS may shoot the drone down, thump chest and say bring it on.
> THIS IS THE REASON WHY I BELIEVE USA WILL NOT CUT MILITARY AID. US wants mind slaves again who come back from long stays in US all sponsored by US. While they can not mend or bring back time to influence up coming top tiers, they can influence the young lot again in the name of Traning and F-16

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## muse

Strongly agree with the comments about what comes with "training" in US and that such "influence" can be, and may well be, soon, career ending for officers. I could not more strongly discourage the practice of sending officers to US academies and/or "training" - it is unfair, reckless and dangerous to expose officers to the "influence" opportunity in the US.

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## SQ8

muse said:


> Strongly agree with the comments about what comes with "training" in US and that such "influence" can be, and may well be, soon, career ending for officers. I could not more strongly discourage the practice of sending officers to US academies and/or "training" - it is unfair, reckless and dangerous to expose officers to the "influence" opportunity in the US.


 
But many officer's relish the opportunity since the TA/DA it brings is helpful in being the first in the block to afford a flat screen TV.
The Influence is varied, some gulp it down.. other's reject it. this may even reflect on their grading/remarks after the program.
those that gulped the "influence" down along with the training are earmarked by the CIA for later use.

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## Dazzler

This article on CDF, they are talking about J-10b radar as AESA, containing just under 1200 T/R modules. Good news !


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## Dazzler

Maximum power consumption of 10 kw, high density active electronically scanned array antenna! Now waiting for JFT AESA, getting greedy  

Note: the f-16 blk 60 APG 80 has 1000 t/r modules so not a bad beginning by Chinese at all...


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## Areesh

What about Pakistani plan of J10b procurement Nabil. Do you have any news about that?


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## Dazzler

J-10b is FC-20 as far as i know. All tech that PAF has asked from China, from design to avionic change, is being fulfilled at this point.

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## PWFI

Areesh said:


> What about Pakistani plan of J10b procurement Nabil. Do you have any news about that?


 
4 are coming in december acording to eaglehannan

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## Areesh

PWFI said:


> 4 are coming in december acording to eaglehannan


 
Great. I hope this proves to be true.

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## Xracer

I hope tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo33333333344444444445555555

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## VelocuR

nabil_05 said:


> This article on CDF, they are talking about J-10b radar as AESA, containing just under 1200 T/R modules. Good news !


 
Wow, Nabil, you solved us mystery problems by reading Chinese language. I unable to understood it.

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## Dazzler

i just posted the images as it is yar, someone else did the hard work.


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## abdulbarijan

@ Nabil-05
You posted early about the french deal and the customized spectra that PAF asked for and as i recall you also revealed that there is a Chinese defense aid suite similar to spectra so my question is 
will it be on the JF-17 Block II and possibly the FC-20??
thanks in advance bro..i know we bother you too much but thats one thing we are very good at

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## Manticore

nabil_05 said:


> i just posted the images as it is yar, someone else did the hard work.


 
i also read that a week back but couldnt make out any thing , even by using google translate on the comments below the post , they seemed to question the original poster.. so i have my fingers crossed


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## Dazzler

abdulbarijan said:


> @ Nabil-05
> You posted early about the french deal and the customized spectra that PAF asked for and as i recall you also revealed that there is a Chinese defense aid suite similar to spectra so my question is
> will it be on the JF-17 Block II and possibly the FC-20??
> thanks in advance bro..i know we bother you too much but thats one thing we are very good at



The reason why we asked French for a customised spectra was the fact that JFT is already using pretty much a comprehensive EW suite comprising many sensors, jammers, etc so anything coming from France had to be better than the existing. French were too reluctant about that as Spectra is their state of the EW suite for Rafale, we asked a bit too much i guess .
Now about what i have heard about BLK 2 suite, it is as good as any modern EW out there, shares some EW, sensor fusion tech from FC-20/ J-10b and even a little from J-20. CAC has done a marvel of a job on blk 2 and PAF is anxious about its induction. We are already jumping on our blk 1s. You can guess the rest as i cant go further.

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## cloneman

Latest J-10B PT 05 picture from Chengdu,rumor said it was testing the FWS-10A engine on it.
Note:sorry to houshanghai,I am faster than you.

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## Mani2020

nabil_05 said:


> The reason why we asked French for a customised spectra was the fact that JFT is already using pretty much a comprehensive EW suite comprising many sensors, jammers, etc so anything coming from France had to be better than the existing. French were too reluctant about that as Spectra is their state of the EW suite for Rafale, we asked a bit too much i guess .
> Now about what i have heard about BLK 2 suite, it is as good as any modern EW out there, shares some EW, sensor fusion tech from FC-20/ J-10b and even a little from J-20. CAC has done a marvel of a job on blk 2 and PAF is anxious about its induction. We are already jumping on our blk 1s. You can guess the rest as i cant go further.


 
Nabil also to add to your post , the sensor fusions used on jf-17 block 2 are of hybrid type, some info was provided by PAF based on the experience of Western aircrafts and some was gotten by China from their past experiences with Sukhoi series and Mig , the sensors used on Sukhois and Migs were studied carefully and the strengths were molded into a new system coupled with western systems know how resulting into a hybrid kind based on the good parts of Russia-Western systems

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## zoochee

Some more translation of the highlighted parts from the Chinese article:

1. This AESA radar works at X band 8ghz - 12ghz with a scanning cone of 120 degree
2. It consists of 1275 T/R units with energy consumption of 120kw 
3. Because Chinese manufacturing limit the AESA T/R unit arrangement is based on traditional block formation instead of layered formation. In the future once they master the layered formation then more antenna units will be able to be fit on the same radar
4. Radar is designed with high modularity thus easy to maintain and each module can be replaced if malfunction. Modular design also enables the radar size to be flexible to fit different fighter jet nose cone.

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## Areesh

Good to see pics of J-10b prototypes again. It is sometime that I saw the pics of j10b during development.


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## SBD-3

cloneman said:


> Latest J-10B PT 05 picture from Chengdu,rumor said it was testing the FWS-10A engine on it.
> Note:sorry to houshanghai,I am faster than you.


This is not the latest pic, I have the same pic in my pic collection saved many months ago


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## cloneman

hasnain0099 said:


> This is not the latest pic, I have the same pic in my pic collection saved many months ago


 
Care to post it? I 'm not very sure if your picture is a J-10A.


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## SBD-3

cloneman said:


> Care to post it? I 'm not very sure if your picture is a J-10A.

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## cloneman

hasnain0099 said:


>


 
My bad,it's an old pitcure.Hopeful there will be new picutre leaked recentlly.


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## houshanghai

cloneman said:


> My bad,it's an old pitcure.Hopeful there will be new picutre leaked recentlly.


 
Shame on you! let you guy posted faster than I did.


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## cloneman

houshanghai said:


> Shame on you! let you guy posted faster than I did.


 
You win,buddy.Next time I will wait for your post.

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## khurasaan1

RaptorRX707 said:


> Wow, Nabil, you solved us mystery problems by reading Chinese language. I unable to understood it.


 
Looks like Nabil is master in Chinese too....

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## rcrmj

cloneman said:


> My bad,it's an old pitcure.Hopeful there will be new picutre leaked recentlly.


 
from this pic the engine nozzle looks like AL-31


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## cloneman

rcrmj said:


> from this pic the engine nozzle looks like AL-31


 
Yes it is since it's a picture posted several months ago,and at that time all the J-10s are using the AL-31FN.Unless new picture rleased.we can not prove if the rumor is true that they are testing the FWS-10A on the J-10B.


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## Dazzler

khurasaan1 said:


> Looks like Nabil is master in Chinese too....



I wish i was but this department belongs to our Chinese friends


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## rcrmj

cloneman said:


> Yes it is since it's a picture posted several months ago,and at that time all the J-10s are using the AL-31FN.Unless new picture rleased.we can not prove if the rumor is true that they are testing the FWS-10A on the J-10B.


 
I dont think J-10B is going to use WS-10 as it is very different from AL-31 in size and shape``a redesign of fuslage is needed for fitting WS-10 into J-10 which will change its areodynamics

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## cloneman

rcrmj said:


> I dont think J-10B is going to use WS-10 as it is very different from AL-31 in size and shape``a redesign of fuslage is needed for fitting WS-10 into J-10 which will change its areodynamics


 
Yes,it can and the initial purpose of developing the FWS-10 serieal engines is to both fit it on the J-10 and the J-11.Below the picture is the interview of the FWS-10 chief designer Mr.Zhang En-he.He expressed that the FWS-10a will both surport the two planes.Plus technically there's no too many difficulties to change from the AL-31FN into FWS-10a on the J-10 due to almost the same size of the two engines,and you already see that the J-11B and J-15 are flying with the FWS-10A while the 0ld J-11A is using the AL-31F.The Russians even fit the AL-31F on the MIG-27 and seems there's no much affection.Furthur reading goes here:Çëpu´óÈ·ÈÏ-±ÈAL-31FNÍÆÁ¦´óµÄ·¢¶¯»ú-ÒâÏò²É¹ºÊýÁ¿³öÀ´-137Ì¨--6ÔÂ±±¾©»áÒé£¨ÈøÁôÌØ£© - µÚ11Ò³ - ¿Õ¾ü°æ - ³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³

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## Manticore

*from french*







Translation
Yellow - Ensure the contract of 50 Pakistani FC-1
Blue - Signature of the export of L-15 to start the client (?)
Green - Strive to signing the contract to export J-10
Purple - Promote the draft FC-1 single-seater and two-seater for the Egyptian contract


*from chinese *
CNAC: Xiaolong on Pakistan to ensure the follow-up 50 contracts, L-15 Starting user export transactions; strive Raptors signed the contract ...
-
1 Good grasp of key products in the international arms trade marketing, to ensure follow-up to Pakistan Xiaolong 50 contract, L-15 transaction start user exit; strive Raptors signed the contract to promote the single-seat and seat Xiaolong Egypt project contract; while we must vigorously develop the international military and civilian helicopter market.

2 Continue to strengthen the military and trade new product development efforts, focus on AMF Advanced Multirole Fighter, F-10 export-oriented, Xiaolong two-seater and other key project development and marketing.


They are going to participate in Paris airshow, Moscow airshow, Beijing airshow and Dubai airshow.

AMF is a project with Pak. ???

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## Mani2020

ANTIBODY said:


> Translation
> En jaune - Garantir l'exécution du contrat de 50 FC-1 pakistanais Yellow - Ensure the contract of 50 Pakistani FC-1
> En bleu - Signature de l'exportation de L-15 pour le client de démarrage (??) Blue - Signature of the export of L-15 to start the client (?)
> En vert - S'efforcer à la signature du contrat d'exportation de J-10 Green - Strive to signing the contract to export J-10
> En violet - Promouvoir le projet de FC-1 mono-place et bi-place pour le contrat égyptien Purple - Promote the draft FC-1 single-seater and two-seater for the Egyptian contract


 
Good work antibody but i must say that the google translation is pathetic , lol its even more difficult to understand than the original article in Chinese itself


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## Manticore

thanks ! its french.......

http://translate.googleusercontent....1.1650&usg=ALkJrhjUPT9jGcMEYc3rg8hirkSPlF_yiQ

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## Mani2020

ANTIBODY said:


> thanks ! its french.......
> 
> Google Translate


 
i don't know what it is , the only thing i know is hell i can't understand it


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## Manticore

tidbits by eaglehannon


> JFT and FC20 did not come into existence as mere air superiority fighters. From the design board, they were meant to be MULTIROLE. 2ndly, if this was the reality, I am sure the project directors and other seniors would never have said &#8220;FC20 is our high end platform&#8221;
> J-10A the first J10 to go into production, unlike what you said was a dedicated Ground attack fighter. J10 had SAR since a long time; JL10 fire control radar onboard J10A version has already incorporated inverse ISAR capability. I had this debate before on another green forum, regarding SAR capability of J-10A version, later I came to know through by Chinese sources (not some bloggers but actual operator) that the primary mission since 2007 for initial batches of J-10s was ground attack and protection of South China Sea and complement SU30s. The reason for J10A rejection by PAF was that with JL10 fire control radar and almost no sensor fusion, J10A was hardly a middle tier aircraft. In 2009, even Chinese sources confirmed that JF-17s fire control radar requirements were higher than that of &#8221;then&#8221; J-10. J-10A WAS NOT BOUGHT BECAUSE IT IS NOTHING MORE THAN A MIRRAGE REPLACEMENT. This is also the reason why Chinese air force was not interested in JFTs as they had a same capability aircraft with little long legs and higher payloads.
> 
> FC20 on the other hand is totally new approach to fire control radar. Chinese requirement to replace their aging high end force (and self reliance for this category) dictated the firm cooperation with Pakistanis with experience and access to advanced fire control radars. The AESA, sensor pods, integrated IRST and a lot of sensor fusion and composites made FC20 sit comfortably in the league of 4.5 generation EU birds. FC20 is what PAF is interested in and it DOES give capability enhancements over blk52s.
> 
> If you ask me how would FC20 be the top tier AC? Well, to start with, FC20 insures that all the indigenous OFFENSIVE munitions can be incorporated in a bird which is open to Pakistan and which has sensors to complement the weapon which then can be taken at long distances with precision and full effectiveness. I DON'T SEE THIS LEVERAGE WITH F16s which shall be carrying no other weapon but of AMERICAN origin in limited numbers with unreliable supplies and LIMITED OPERATIONAL USE. F16s will limit us to use US weapons and leave us with no platform with longer legs to take current weapons H2/H4/Raad and many more to come along with continually improving air launched Chinese weapons. WHY DO WE NEED TO HAVE AN AIR LAUNCHED WEAPONS PROGRAME AT ALL IF THERE IS NO PLATFORM TO CARRY IT AND USE IT WITH FULL OPERATIONAL EFFECTIVES? This translates in ANOTHER DEPENDANCE OF US WEAPONARY WITH I REPEAT &#8220;LIMITED OPERATIONAL ENVELOPE&#8221;.
> 
> FC20 ensures, we may acquire techs from here and there develop it AS WE LIKE, add sensor for it on the platform or use the existing AS WE LIKE, produce as many AS WE LIKE, CONTINUE AND EXPAND OUR AIR LAUNCHED PROGRAME AND MAKE USE OF THAT OF OUR ALLIES instead of putting all our eggs in one basket and stay operationally dependant on a unreliable, fair weather supplier.
> 
> FC20 gives a new life to indigenous air launched weapons program. Gives the flexibility of Operational use over long distances and comes with excellent new generation sensors we can base our new weapons production on.

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## siegecrossbow

Looks like people need translation help lol.

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## houshanghai

cloneman said:


> Yes it is since it's a picture posted several months ago,and at that time all the J-10s are using the AL-31FN.Unless new picture rleased.we can not prove if the rumor is true that they are testing the FWS-10A on the J-10B.


 

Personally,i think that PAF FC20\ J10B with WS 10A is impossible.
infs 
127 AL31FN for export and spare parts (The contract has been signed by avic and salut)
137AL31FN(MAX)(The contract is under negotiation in Beijing)


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## Silk

I think they are busy with testing on J11. If it is evolved enough then.... When that will be? I expect 2014-2015 be real turning point. And 127 engines are for the J11 in service. I think those next engines are for FC20. But I do not think that with the cash the Chinese are investing right now that it will take that long. If you look at the number of UAV's now... They can afford it. The engine issue is much more important. We can trust them to be taken serious.


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## cloneman

houshanghai said:


> Personally,i think that PAF FC20\ J10B with WS 10A is impossible.
> infs
> 127 AL31FN for export and spare parts (The contract has been signed by avic and salut)
> 137AL31FN(MAX)(The contract is under negotiation in Beijing)


 
It could be true that it's a logistic reason that the PAF believes to maitan two Russian engines(RD-93 and AL-31FN) is easier than one Russian and one Chinese(FWS-10A).Also current FWS-10A has some bugs on it.But still it doesn't mean the PLAAF will give up the efforts to install the FWS-10A on the J-10B because the current problems we met on the FWS-10A we will have to face them again on the WS-15.We have no choice but to solve it one by one and step by step.The FWS-10 is the first time that the Chinese defence industry tried to designe,develope and massively produce a heavy tubofan engine,I believe the AVIC and the PLA won't abandon it even we still have the opptunity to import the Russian engines.So the PAF will choose the AL-31FN,but we have to rely on our FWS-10 series.

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## Manticore

^post 4221

AMF is a project with Pak. ??? is it fc20 or 5th gen fighhter?


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## houshanghai

ANTIBODY said:


> ^post 4221
> 
> AMF is a project with Pak. ??? is it fc20 or 5th gen fighhter?


 
i dont know what it is.
but huitong(a very famous boss in cdf and feiyang) said that AMF=Aircraft Manufacturing Factory ,it is a factory service for PAC.

So huitong think that it is a sino-pak JV project ...

#61
??| ?? - ??? - powered by phpwind.net

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## houshanghai

self delete


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## Bratva

AMF = Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (A Part of PAC)

AMF = Advance Medium FIghter ( Rumored name given to JF-17 uprgraded versions)


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## houshanghai

According to the latest news from boss.huzigeng
PLAAF will first to equip j10B by the end of this year..
PAF will equip j10a+j10s&#65288;new aircraft electronic system) by the end of this year.
Also some trustworthy chinese boss said that PAF will second to equip j10B in 2014 .



more infs link;

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...hin-cac-j-10b-j-20-also-pakistan-related.html


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## propakistani




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## Areesh

houshanghai said:


> Also some trustworthy chinese boss said that PAF will second to equip j10B in 2013~2014 .


 
Which one. J10b or J10A???


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## houshanghai

Areesh said:


> Which one. J10b or J10A???


 

BCZ j10b have to take a place in line now .you know PLAAF is NO.1 and PLAN is NO.2,PAF is NO.3.
But PAF can not wait to equip J10B in 2014,so PAF first to equip some j10a and j10s(new aircraft electronic system),,,,,,then PAF will equip j10B in 2014


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## propakistani

but according to eagle hannan pak will receive 4 J-10B by the end of this year.


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## Imran Khan

propakistani said:


> but according to eagle hannan pak will receive 4 J-10B by the end of this year.


 
now as papu said pakistan will get soon a good news .so this good news is we may get more then 38 j-10 but first j-10a then j-10b later .


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## propakistani

PAF NEED J-10B BECOZ I DONT THINK J-10A CAN TACKLE INDIAN AIR FORCE


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## S10

propakistani said:


> but according to eagle hannan pak will receive 4 J-10B by the end of this year.


J-10B is entering service with China at the end of the year. Do you think PAF will get it before Chinese themselves?

Straight from the mouth of a CAC employee:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...hin-cac-j-10b-j-20-also-pakistan-related.html


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## propakistani

Imran Khan said:


> now as papu said pakistan will get soon a good news .so this good news is we may get more then 38 j-10 but first j-10a then j-10b later .


 
IN ANOTHER FORUM EAGLE HANNON SAYS PAF NEVER INTERESTED IN J-10A..... THEY WANT TO BUY J-10B


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## propakistani

IF THIS NEWS IS TRUE THAT PAF OPTED FOR J-10A RATHER THAN GOING FOR J-10B THAN IM CRYING


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## houshanghai

Imran Khan said:


> now as papu said pakistan will get soon a good news .so this good news is we may get more then 38 j-10 but first j-10a then j-10b later .


 
pupu's good news that there have V-head JFT PT will make its first flight at the beginning of this year.

That is not j10B's news.some guys completely misconceived pupu's meaning...


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## graphican

What will happen to J-10s which we get after J-10Bs become available to us? Also there was a rumor that J-10Bs will come with TOT and if that is the case, why cannot we set-up a parallel production line in Pakistan to serve our requirements and PLAAF will keep producing J-10B to meet its own?


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## Manticore

Q. What are the options available for PAF to enhance its fleet, and what new fighter types are expected to join PAF in the next five years?

Ans. As I have mentioned earlier, we are keeping all available options open and wants a well balanced multirole jet fighter aircraft. We will be inducting 18 new F-16C/Ds and most probably will use our option of 18 more after the first squadron will be operational. We will also be inducting 26 MLU F-16A/B as well as our existing fleet of 34 aircraft will also undergo the MLU upgrades. 150 JF-17 Thunders and 36 F-10A aircraft will also be joining PAF, and more F-10s can be expected. Most probably we will also purchase FC-20 fighter aircraft from China.

2009
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/22396-interviews.html#post311899

3) FC-20 order should be confirmed in next 12 months or so, whilst final configuration is worked out. Current J-10 technology is not upto PAF requirements and as the platform natures, PAF hopes to include western equipment in the J-10, thereby signifying a different version from PLAAF J-10, which will be known as FC-20 in PAF service. FC-20 will not be required to have any conformal fuel tanks, as it has sufficient internal fuel capacity as well as AAR by Il-78 Midas tankers. Although AESA radar would be nice to have, there is no confirmation if this will be made available to PAF. (persumably refers to non-Chinese suppliers willingness to supply)
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/22396-interviews.html#post311900



For the PAF, not only will the induction of 14 used F-16 aircraft and 18 new F-16C/D aircraft figure prominently in narrowing the gap, but continuing negotiations with China to purchase up to 36 FC-20 fighter aircraft - designated the J-10 in China - will also play an important role.

ACM Qamar said the PAF has finalised the technical proposal for the FC-20 and informed the Chinese of its requirements.

"[The technical proposal] is more or less finalised now. There are some changes that are required, which [the Chinese] are making," he said.

The next stage of the contract will involve financial negotiations between China and Pakistan. ACM Qamar believes that, following the signing of a contract, it will take two to two-and-a-half years before the first FC-20 aircraft is received.
2010

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/22396-interviews-2.html#post422017


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## Xracer

note: huzigeng said that PAF's J10a is a upgraded version of j10a=FC20


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## Xracer

We are Not getting j10as we are getting Fc20 an upgrade variant of the J-10 designed for the Pakistan Air Force.Close To J10bs


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## Xracer

Dont Worry Pakistani Brothers we will get 50 Fc20 an upgrade variant of J10as According to the News of ours Bro S10.but don,t forget deal may go up to 150 Jet we will get other 100 jet of j10bs variant.Now Happy
(INSHALLAH)


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## Areesh

After this news I can just wish that like PAF, PN also don't end up buying song class submarines instead of Qing class. Sh1t happens and in Pakistan case it happens too often.

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## razgriz19

whatever man, we're getting IMPROVED J-10s, i guess that should be enough
it still gonna add more capability, which is always a good thing!

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## razgriz19

Areesh said:


> After this news I can just wish that like PAF, PN also don't end up buying song class submarines instead of Qing class. Sh1t happens and in Pakistan case it happens too often.


 
PN will never go for song class, although Yuan is always welcome! =D


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## HavocHeaven

I also saw Huzhigeng's post on CD forum today. Hu said the Pakistan order is a done deal: about 35 x J10A + MLU (sort of) + several upgrades requested by PAF. 

CFC had a demo show for PLAAF Armament Dept on July 27. Per Hu's post J10B is expected to achieve IOC by the end of this year. Does PAF need J10A that urgently? Other than that, I don't see what's the point to purchase J10A at this point. It should not take more than one year or two for CFC to debug the bird and do the marketing. Anyway I won't be surprised by a following J10B order when the uncertainty in the redesign is gone and, most importantly, the WS-10G engine turns out to be reliable.


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## abdulbarijan

> *Eagle Hannan*
> the moment I read "There is no problem with WS13" I was like yes right and all the PAF people here in China are lying. J-10B/FC20 was PAF requirement.. No J10A version. I think could be some translation error... Its like someone has been running after this guy and asking questions while he half heartidly replied.
> 
> I have quoted the project director from PAF saying "J-10A is hardly a replcement for Mirrages and there is no reason to 2 platforms with same capability". Also so far the acquisition of J-10B is on track. The 4 J-10B inshallah will make it to Pakistan. I have sent an Email to my contact and copied the above report in it. I just want to be sure.. I mean the guy says "little change in avionics". What does that mean? It is not a little change we need a J-10 with. and another point says "10 planes are being readied". CAC has already cleared 2 B models for flight tests and I can confirm PAF is part of evaluation team. Piloting the bird.
> 
> Anyways, I would not be so worried about about this... doesnt seem right
> 
> The confusion may be because Pakistan's designated version is FC20 which is based on J-10B with Pakistan specific requirements on top of J-10B (Chinese desingation of a new air frame + avionics package). It is still going to be based on J10B inshALLAh.


Thanks to Mani2020 for spreading the word

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## SEAL

Self delete


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## TaimiKhan

Areesh said:


> After this news I can just wish that like PAF, PN also don't end up buying song class submarines instead of Qing class. Sh1t happens and in Pakistan case it happens too often.






HavocHeaven said:


> I also saw Huzhigeng's post on CD forum today. Hu said the Pakistan order is a done deal: about 35 x J10A + MLU (sort of) + several upgrades requested by PAF.
> 
> CFC had a demo show for PLAAF Armament Dept on July 27. Per Hu's post J10B is expected to achieve IOC by the end of this year. Does PAF need J10A that urgently? Other than that, I don't see what's the point to purchase J10A at this point. It should not take more than one year or two for CFC to debug the bird and do the marketing. Anyway I won't be surprised by a following J10B order when the uncertainty in the redesign is gone and, most importantly, the WS-10G engine turns out to be reliable.


 
@ Areesh, no need to be so much disappointed. If the basic J-10 design comes with latest avionics and is as capable as the rumored J-10B, then whats the bad thing ?? Just not having a DSI makes any difference ?? Don't think so. 

It seems due to some unknown reason PAF has made the decision to induct the aircraft much before the due time as told before of 2014-15. The J-10B design getting IOC by the end of this year and then another round of testing before formal production starting would have made the 2014-15 time line possible, but due to the need of urgency by PAF it seems the PAF has decided to get the basic design J-10 with its own requirement of Avionics to fill some gap.

F-16s have not come from the EDA stock as hoped and relations with the US have gone down in the past 1-2 years and even the Blk-52s are with restrictions and the codes for them are still being procured from the US. We were hoping to have something close to a 100 F-16s but we are stuck at the 65 F-16 figure, 34 older ones, 13 EDA ones after the loss of one from the original 14 and the new 18 Blk 52s, so we are still short of 2 full Sqds to reach the 100 mark of front line fighters to take on the enemy. 

This short fall needs to be filled asap and the J-10A coming with PAF specified avionics is the best answer as getting F-16s from the US with current relations seems very difficult. 

So, my analysis is that these J-10s are kind of stop gap measure / emergency measure to fill the gap created by no F-16s and by 2014-15 when J-10B would be in full production run, we will start getting more out of them. 

J-10 with PAF specified avionics is gonna be one hell of a fighter and fully capable to take own what the enemy has currently.

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## DANGER-ZONE

hahaha.... so PAF Fans of J-10B are kicked hard once again  .... If right now, we are getting J-10A instead of B then i assure you we are not getting any J-10B ever. Pakistan is out of CASH now a days and we r already getting 50 new JF-17 on soft loans. on the other hand we are getting Bloody military aid from US, which is junk. All the things we have in our military is a decade old as compared to India & we cant even compare ourselves with our primary enemy.
Every day there is a serious mess ... i am not hearing good news at all, any day. 
so i suggest u guys *STOP DREAMING* and face the reality.

RIP FC-20

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## epinephrine

^^^^ u need to consult a psychiatrist please

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## Riseup

Yes as some time ago when I was reading thread about FC20/J10B I have been concern in my mind that, if J10B first coming out of production at the end of this year how can Pakistan get it immediately this year soon, I have been raised concern on that forum but PDF folks could not caught it now this reality brings out here, folks desires and reality are two integrated thinks, you could not get your desires without relying on reality. 

J10B is a new enhanced technology that Chinese required as bad as Pakistan needs it. My Pakistani folks China is not living out of this world they also have conflicts especially on Taiwan and South China Sea where US continually threating her, and you know technological comparison between US and China. How China can afford to avoid getting advance war machines in these circumstances?

Although we do need them too badly but the time that will need to achieve it are too long until 2014, because that would first fulfill the requirement of China. Now the question is that what Pakistan does during that period to overcome her need regarding Air superiority ability of PAF? &#8230; J10A upgraded FC-20 and JF-17 block II is solution for that.


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## DANGER-ZONE

epinephrine said:


> ^^^^ u need to consult a psychiatrist please


 
and so do u .. !
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...-force-symbol-pride-nation-3.html#post1977982


epinephrine said:


> f-16a is a third gen air craft.even the books written abt paf n f-16s call it a third gen aircraft.f-16a is better then jf-17 in range,agility,payload,far more powerful engine n higher twr .jf-17 is better then f-16a in terms of avionics, radar n bvr capability making it a low 4th gen air craft.f-16c is true 4th gen aircraft.jf-17 block 2 will qualify itself to be called as a true 4th gen air craft but still it would be inferior to f-16c in terms of range,payload n agility.
> if su 30 mki is called as a 4.5 gen jet then jf-17 block 2 wont be in the same generation as it will be inferior to su30 mki in almost all aspects except the radar may be as it ll be having aesa.

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## HavocHeaven

danger-zone said:


> hahaha.... so PAF Fans of J-10B are kicked hard once again  .... If right now, we are getting J-10A instead of B then i assure you we are not getting any J-10B ever. Pakistan is out of CASH now a days and we r already getting 50 new JF-17 on soft loans. on the other hand we are getting Bloody military aid from US, which is junk. All the things we have in our military is a decade old as compared to India & we cant even compare ourselves with our primary enemy.
> Every day there is a serious mess ... i am not hearing good news at all, any day.
> so i suggest u guys *STOP DREAMING* and face the reality.
> 
> RIP FC-20


 
Take a chill pill, bro. If PAF can only afford to 35 J10As, by no means they will acquire J10A right now. Instead, they will hold on until J10B becomes available. Hu's post is not a confirmed news, so please take with a grain of salt. Don't forget the fact that Hu even had to call his buddy in Nanjing to figure out J10B radar is PESA or AESA.

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## SQ8

Moreover.. the current J-10A's may form a lend lease package.. to be exchanged back for the B variant at a later stage.
It is nothing to lose heart at.. 
before the transfer of Mig-29N's to Malaysia.. there was an initial transfer of combat capable A's.
To start pilot training... and maintenance familiarization.
I think its rather good.. CASH strapped we may be.. if not for our cockamimi govt.. the PAF isnt making too many mistakes.

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## Manticore

one thing that some posters havent factored in is the option to integrate raad cruise missile aswell as to upgrade to aesa radar in the j10 far quickly than the possible mlu of eda f16s to mlu3/4 standard 

this will make these 2 squadrons far more lethal in the coming years


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## Rafael

So J10/J10 A whatever it is, are we getting it this year or the next one?


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## SBD-3

ANTIBODY said:


> one thing that some posters havent factored in is the availability to integrate raad cruise missile aswell as to upgrade to aesa radar in the j10 far quickly than the possible mlu of eda f16s
> 
> this will make these 2 squadrons far more lethal in the coming years


F-16s with Raa'd will attract an objection of US as it will lead to a violation of famous US covanent of "No offensive use". So i dont think Integrating Raad with Falcon will be a good Idea when we have other sanction free platforms


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## Manticore

^ i think thats what i meant , raad option and aesa availability ---

if we are intending to use these j10 as gap filler in place of eda f16s [and not as gap fillers in place of j10b] , then its a very good move by paf

these squadrons may includes dual seaters [j10s] aswell to train the pilots before moving on to j10b squadrons

they might aswell be the first 4.5 generation fighters capable of air refuelling with midas refuellers , which might be handy in naval operations

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## SBD-3

I dont know whats all the fuse......but Even if its J-10A with upgrades, it will be an addition to our arsnel. J-10As outperformed PLAAF J-11s and PLAN SU-30s, the same J-10As recently locked consistently onto VnAF SU-30s, all point to its decency in A2A capabilities

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## SBD-3

ANTIBODY said:


> ^ i think thats what i meant , raad option and aesa availability ---
> 
> if we are intending to use these j10 as gap filler in place of eda f16s [and not as gap fillers in place of j10b] , then its a very good move by paf
> 
> these squadrons may includes dual seaters [j10s] aswell to train the pilots before moving on to j10b squadrons


They will cost more than EDAs.....but anyways, all we can do is speculate


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## Psyxjen

36 J10As to be used for training and platform integration would hardly be a bad thing! It'll give our pilots a bit of downtime with the 'Dragon', and a large mixed J10 A and J10 B fleet, would be a force to be seriously reckoned with. If this news is true, then I wonder if PAF might be dropping the rumoured used F-16 negotiations.... shifting to a new upper tier 'go-to' aircraft altogether.

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## Jungibaaz

flyinghawkwings said:


> I guess this shoots down the brilliant idea that Pakistan, a nation who cannot design a J7 much less a j10, will have more advanced J10s than China, who created the damn thing. The days of Pakistan wielding slightly superior avionics over Chinese domestic versions are long gone. When will Pakistanis understand this?
> 
> Yet Pakistanis will still claim the JC20 will be superior to any J10a/b China possesses. This is called delusional thinking.


 
Both J-10B and JF-17 Block II will be using 5th gen elements, If my knowledge serves me correctly, PAF will be getting JF--17 Block II soon.
How could you not know this and still post what you just posted?

This is what I call ignorance.

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## flyinghawkwings

graphican said:


> What will happen to J-10s which we get after J-10Bs become available to us? Also there was a rumor that J-10Bs will come with TOT and if that is the case, why cannot we set-up a parallel production line in Pakistan to serve our requirements and PLAAF will keep producing J-10B to meet its own?


 
Because the J10 is a Chinese designed and produced aircraft. 

What is this "rumor" of TOT? Are you sure that is not just fanboy's dreams?


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## Bratva

flyinghawkwings said:


> Because the J10 is a Chinese designed and produced aircraft.
> 
> What is this "rumor" of TOT? Are you sure that is not just fanboy's dreams?


 
Check here for your answers

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...hin-cac-j-10b-j-20-also-pakistan-related.html


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## Imran Khan

flyinghawkwings said:


> Because the J10 is a Chinese designed and produced aircraft.
> 
> What is this "rumor" of TOT? Are you sure that is not just fanboy's dreams?


 
yes we know that its chines production when we claim its ours? they have every right to secure it refuse us tech or get before us .

abut TOT dude you need to learn some more things . for what new plants and land ?

PAF Aeronautical Complex near Nawabshah: 571 acres of land documents handed over

PAF Aeronautical Complex near Nawabshah: 571 acres of land documents handed over to AVM Arshad
RECORDER REPORT
HYDERABAD (October 21, 2010) : Sindh Chief Secretary Ghulam Ali Pasha on Wednesday handed over the legal documents of 571acres of land to Air Vice Martial Arshad Qudoos for establishment of PAF Aeronautical Complex near Nawabshah in a simple ceremony held at Darbar Hall, Nawabshah City.

Information Secretary Mumtaz Ali Shah, Secretary Education Ilmuddin Bullo, Secretary Forest Mushtaque Ahmed Memon, DCO Nawabshah Jamal Mustafa, officers from Pakistan Air force and district government were present in the ceremony. The Chief Secretary said that the land was being provided to PAF for enhancement and establishment of PAF Aeronautical Complex here at Nawabshah to provide modern skills and job opportunities to the local people. He said that this project would have capacity to absorb 4,000 to 5,000 youths of the district and also to provide technical opportunities to many more, enabling them to get jobs at other sister organisations as well.

He said that efforts were being made to complete this project within six to twelve months. He said that the government has acquired the land, and compensation to owners of the land was in progress and hopefully it would be completed within a month. He said that this project would not only be fruitful for the people of district of Benazirabad but also for the people of other districts as well.

Later talking to the media, Ghulam Ali said that the land had been acquired transparently and on market rate under the Land Acquisition Rules of the Government. He said that 7.3 million people, 1,80,000 cattle and standing crops on 2.4 million acres land were affected, damaged, and destroyed due to flood. He said that the government was actively engaged in reconstruction and rehabilitation activities with its own resources and also looking for foreign aid in this regard. He said that in this activity the foreign friends of Pakistan has raised question that "what we are contributing to generate the fund" in this regard.

He said that this was a genuine question and as such the government has decided to impose onetime flood tax on cotton, sugarcane production and big houses in the province. The Chief Secretary added that the areas under flood water would be exempted from this tax. He said that besides it has also been decided to save some amounts from own resources as such the Annual Development Budget was being re-prioritised, and added that some development schemes have to face 50 percent deduction of the allocation.

About encroachments on the land of katcha areas, the Chief Secretary said that the present government is very much serious to eliminate such previous practice. He said that now the legislation has been made in the Assembly and law has been amended in which the encroachment on the state land has been converted into heinous crime. He said that in order to implement this law the Anti Encroachment Force has been established with the support of its 4 stations in the province. He said that not only this but two courts one for tribunal and one trial court were being established.

He said that tribunal would be headed by a retired judge of High Court who decides whether the person under investigation/allegation has occupied state land illegally or not. He said that in case he was found involved in allegation his case would be submitted to the trial court for prosecution/litigation by the tribunal. He said that the trial court would be headed by sitting Sessions Judge.

He said that henceforth land lease in katcha areas would not be given to any one but would be given to the landless farmers of the areas on the basis of proprietary rights under the revise policy of present government. He said that strict vigilance was being done on the river bed and forest land and no one would be allowed to build his private embankments, occupy forest land for his interest. He said that under the amended law whosoever encroached state land or built private bund would have to face the conviction of 10 years imprisonment.

About planning to avoid flood devastation in future, he said that indigenous engineers, experts and foreign consultant firms have been engaged to devise a system and foolproof mechanism to meet the flood challenges in future. He said that a Chinese firm has been engaged for conducting survey in this regard. He said that government has planned to increase the discharge capacity of Sukkur Barrage from 9 to 20 lac cusecs. Similarly the capacity of other barrages would also be increased. He said that in addition to that re-strengthening of embankments of Indus

River, canals and Regulatory System of Irrigation department has also been included in future planning. The Chief Secretary said that the Sindh government was planning de-watering the areas still under flood water, and efforts were being made to complete this task before the cultivation of Rabi crops.

Business and Economy - PAF Aeronautical Complex near Nawabshah: 571 acres of land documents handed over to AVM Arshad


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## flyinghawkwings

So what? What does that article have to do with a J10 production line? It's a fanboy dream not serious idea.


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## flyinghawkwings

mafiya said:


> Check here for your answers
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...hin-cac-j-10b-j-20-also-pakistan-related.html


 
Again, nothing mentioned about a J10 production line! You people are ridiculous!


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## AstroTrain

flyinghawkwings said:


> I guess this shoots down the brilliant idea that Pakistan, a nation who cannot design a J7 much less a j10, will have more advanced J10s than China, who created the damn thing. The days of Pakistan wielding slightly superior avionics over Chinese domestic versions are long gone. When will Pakistanis understand this?
> 
> Yet Pakistanis will still claim the JC20 will be superior to any J10a/b China possesses. This is called delusional thinking.


 
I concur, with $3 trill in reserves China isn't Russia which needs hard currency in its military exports, all mil exports are more of a political tool than anything else. The plants are at max capacity fulfilling orders for domestic, they don't need more work for the next decade or more. 

I always believed these guys were getting the J10-A, which the PRC heavily promoted for export with all the recent flight demos for foreign dignitaries , Serbs, arabs, S Americans etc. 

The J10-B will probably be exported ONLY when its replacement will be near production possibly a single engine cheap 5th gen slightly inferior to F-35 or when all domestic production is satisfied. 

Pakistan getting the J10B before the PLAAF/N is as delusional as the fiction of JF-17 with AESA and internal weapons bay. 

Who actually thinks China will waste considerable sums of resources and funds to miniaturize an Aesa radar on the small nose of a cheap Mig 21 replacement with internal weapons bay and other stealth features?
It makes no logical or financial sense. 

As for the Pakistan getting the J-20, another pipe dream.

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## Imran Khan

flyinghawkwings said:


> So what? What does that article have to do with a J10 production line? It's a fanboy dream not serious idea.


 
then USA should happy why you are boiling and flaming here? its fan boy or my son's dream whats your problem ?we have already a production line ongoing here dude why should we worry for wait few more years ?

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## houshanghai

flyinghawkwings said:


> Dreams are fine. To dream of a strong and vibrant Pakistan is fine.
> 
> To dream of a J10 production line is fine.
> 
> But do you know what's the difference between dream and reality?


 
then I told you specifically that China are developing a single-engine (ws15) real 5 gen fighter for PAF.cac have already had a lot of design programmes( conventional and canard....)about the j2x now . These design programmes of j2x are just waiting for PAF to select from.
also this inf came from what huzigeng and pupu said.so i am afraid you guy are not easier to believe this infs

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## Imran Khan

flyinghawkwings said:


> Dreams are fine. To dream of a strong and vibrant Pakistan is fine.
> 
> To dream of a J10 production line is fine.
> 
> But do you know what's the difference between dream and reality?


 
we was dreaming for nukes we got it
we was dreaming for missiles we got them
we was dreaming for block-52 we got it
we was dreaming for jf-17 we build it with co china
we was dreaming for bvrs we got them
we was dreaming for ALCM we got it
Every success story starts with big dreams.

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## PASCAL LAU

you are right sir ! 

every big big thing just start by a dream , 

i am so happy to see our two big conturies can work together to bulid our future 

Salut

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## PASCAL LAU

you are right sir ! 

every big big thing just start by a dream 

i am so happy to see our two big conturies can work together to bulid our future 

Salut

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## houshanghai

flyinghawkwings said:


> source? provide a link that hizigneng and pupu said this.


 

Do you understand Chinese? 
If you don't believe what I said, you can ask the other chinese member in PDF.

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## SQ8

flyinghawkwings said:


> Based on what? Some of you must return to reality.


 
Your reality??


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## houshanghai

flyinghawkwings said:


> I said, provide a link to what you said. Can you do that? or are you bs-ing?
> 
> You stated China is building 5th generation single engine planes for Pakistan, and this came from huzigeng and pupu. Show me the link.


 


flyinghawkwings said:


> source? provide a link that hizigneng and pupu said this.


 source

some INFs from huitong website,huitong, who is a very famous and respectable boss in cdf and feiyang
The latest rumor (March 2011) suggested that 611 is working on a downgraded single-engine stealth fighter design (J-2X) which will be export-ready similar to American F-35. 
Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force

so you guy should be satisfied with it.

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## SQ8

houshanghai said:


> source
> 
> some INFs from huitong website,huitong, who is a very famous and respectable boss in cdf and feiyang
> The latest rumor (March 2011) suggested that 611 is working on a downgraded single-engine stealth fighter design (J-2X) which will be export-ready similar to American F-35.
> Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force
> 
> so you guy should be satisfied with it.


 
Dont waste your time with him..

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## Areesh

TaimiKhan said:


> @ Areesh, no need to be so much disappointed. If the basic J-10 design comes with latest avionics and is as capable as the rumored J-10B, then whats the bad thing ?? Just not having a DSI makes any difference ?? Don't think so.
> 
> It seems due to some unknown reason PAF has made the decision to induct the aircraft much before the due time as told before of 2014-15. The J-10B design getting IOC by the end of this year and then another round of testing before formal production starting would have made the 2014-15 time line possible, but due to the need of urgency by PAF it seems the PAF has decided to get the basic design J-10 with its own requirement of Avionics to fill some gap.
> 
> F-16s have not come from the EDA stock as hoped and relations with the US have gone down in the past 1-2 years and even the Blk-52s are with restrictions and the codes for them are still being procured from the US. We were hoping to have something close to a 100 F-16s but we are stuck at the 65 F-16 figure, 34 older ones, 13 EDA ones after the loss of one from the original 14 and the new 18 Blk 52s, so we are still short of 2 full Sqds to reach the 100 mark of front line fighters to take on the enemy.
> 
> This short fall needs to be filled asap and the J-10A coming with PAF specified avionics is the best answer as getting F-16s from the US with current relations seems very difficult.
> 
> So, my analysis is that these J-10s are kind of stop gap measure / emergency measure to fill the gap created by no F-16s and by 2014-15 when J-10B would be in full production run, we will start getting more out of them.
> 
> J-10 with PAF specified avionics is gonna be one hell of a fighter and fully capable to take own what the enemy has currently.


 
Thanks Taimi. Your post makes sense. Clarifies the situation a little bit.


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## ziaulislam

i think not getting EDA f-16s and the indian threat is reason PAF went for j-10 as but i still think we might in future go for the j-10 b..
basically the are same fighters with different blocks..point was the timing..


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## krash

flyinghawkwings said:


> Again, nothing mentioned about a J10 production line! You people are ridiculous!


 
In a few years I will answer your post with pictures of J-10s being assembled in Pakistan. Until then patience is what you must exercise and move on with your troll wagon.


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## showstopper

So, the gentleman from the Chinese forum says that it's an upgraded version of J-10A, whereas Eagle Hannan says that it's a modified version of J-10B? From what I've read / I'm reading both are reliable sources, correct? Is there a third source we can use as a "tie-breaker" lol? I remember seeing, either here or on Pakdef, that Eagle Hannan was going to triple check his information...

Oh man I really hope this works out.


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## Mani2020

showstopper said:


> So, the gentleman from the Chinese forum says that it's an upgraded version of J-10A, whereas Eagle Hannan says that it's a modified version of J-10B? From what I've read / I'm reading both are reliable sources, correct? Is there a third source we can use as a "tie-breaker" lol? I remember seeing, either here or on Pakdef, that Eagle Hannan was going to triple check his information...
> 
> Oh man I really hope this works out.



Both are right within themselves , J-10 is being inducted by PAF as an immediate countermeasure to bridge the gap our adversary enjoys, Previously 
F-16's were planned for this role therefore negotiations were taking place about the 18 C/D's in option as well as some used f-16's and as per PAF wish the number of F-16's in PAF inventory was planned to reach somewhere in the range of 100 but now due to increasing fragility in Pak-US relations specially what happened few months ago it seems PAF has diverted their interest form f-16's to J-10 .

The J-10's which Hui is talking about are the one we are getting instead of f-16's while the one called FC-20 deal is as it is as it was in original form , this J-10 deal seems to be a different deal , I think there are two ongoing deals at the same time for J-10 with some improvements while one for FC-20 with some heavy airframe and avionics improvement

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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> Both are right within themselves , J-10 is being inducted by PAF as an immediate countermeasure to bridge the gap our adversary enjoys, Previously
> F-16's were planned for this role therefore negotiations were taking place about the 18 C/D's in option as well as some used f-16's and as per PAF wish the number of F-16's in PAF inventory was planned to reach somewhere in the range of 100 but now due to increasing fragility in Pak-US relations specially what happened few months ago it seems PAF has diverted their interest form f-16's to J-10 .
> 
> The J-10's which Hui is talking about are the one we are getting instead of f-16's while the one called FC-20 deal is as it is as it was in original form , this J-10 deal seems to be a different deal , I think there are two ongoing deals at the same time for J-10 with some improvements while one for FC-20 with some heavy airframe and avionics improvement


 
Well I dont agree with linking the acquisition of J-10A with EDAs. If there was any such thing then there would have also been a cut of Block 52 second order (given the assumption of near death US-PK relationship. The only transactions to be through would be those which have already been executed. But there is no word on the fate of 2nd agreement. Nor there has been any word on the EDAs lately. The order Pakistan has placed is almost the same which had been speculated before i.e. circa 36 platforms (though the rumor was for 56). What we may do is to keep our fingures crossed and watch for the developments.....


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## Mani2020

hasnain0099 said:


> Well I dont agree with linking the acquisition of J-10A with EDAs. If there was any such thing then there would have also been a cut of Block 52 second order (given the assumption of near death US-PK relationship. The only transactions to be through would be those which have already been executed. But there is no word on the fate of 2nd agreement. Nor there has been any word on the EDAs lately. The order Pakistan has placed is almost the same which had been speculated before i.e. circa 36 platforms (though the rumor was for 56). What we may do is to keep our fingures crossed and watch for the developments.....


 
I was not only referring to the EDAS but also with the 18 f-16's C/D available as an option . Many sources have said it time and time again that PAF was always looking to maintain a fleet of 100 f-16's atleast, also there were rumors and reports popping out that PAF will go for the option of remaining 18 plus EDAS or some used ones from 3rd party but that was before ,what Abbottabad operation has made sure that neither Pakistan nor PAF can trust US , PAK-US relationship has its ups and downs ,there was always fragility in relationship but the relationship never touched so low what it did after Abbotabad operation, they directly challenged our sovereignty, So PAF was one of many to realize that in case US does some mishap along with india against us we don't have anythng to put against them , we all know what fate will f-16's carry if any such thing happens other than that what we have to offer is very few .

The region is dynamically changing so are the relations , PAF are smart enough to realize that a mishap is not a far away thing , sooner our sovereignty will be challenged again so we have something to work with and Chinese were/are the best allies to bank our trust upon , their interests and our interests are same so PAF went for the option of J-10's immediately as FC-20/J-10B's are far away so till the real goodie arrive why don't get some j-10's

If PAF had to get J-10's they would have on the first place as what now we are getting has changed avionics but nothing like structural changes so it wouldn't have taken that much time if PAF would have went straight away for J-10's as the original contract was signed way back in 2006 , but as the contract was for much improved version FC-20 so PAF was waiting for it come , but dynamic change in situation forced paf to go for J-10, My gut feeling is that we will not see more f-16's now neither block 52's nor any used ones.

Also once the FC-20/j-10b arrives PAF will feel lot comfortable as the pilots will have there experience on J-10's plus the maintenance facilities will be same for both .

What i think is that once J-10B's arrives then PAF will sent these J-10'A's back to China to upgrade them with the goodies FC-20/J-10b has till than PAF wants to make sure that they have enough in the bank to show there muscle in case of any mishap by our adversary

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## Silk

I agree that going for a total new plane is a risky option. The Fc20 is still a plane that never saw real combat and we have to wait and see what it will be. The F16 is somehow even in Pakistani psychology a known concept. PAF knows it like nothing else. They used it in real combat (Afghanistan/Indian patrols during Kargil/shooting down Indian UAV). Getting 100+ F16's near or on Block52 is something really to look at. Surely there are negative options but do we get something better? Not at the moment. Maybe in 2013-2015. And like we have done in the past. We cannot rely on one producer or plane. If F6 fails we have Mirages...Now if JF17/J10 fails in certain aspect we can try F16 and vice versa... I think it is extremely tough for any opponent to counter two systems. We can be happy that we are able to do that.


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## alibaz

Silk said:


> I agree that going for a total new plane is a risky option. The Fc20 is still a plane that never saw real combat and we have to wait and see what it will be. The F16 is somehow even in Pakistani psychology a known concept. PAF knows it like nothing else. They used it in real combat (Afghanistan/Indian patrols during Kargil/shooting down Indian UAV). Getting 100+ F16's near or on Block52 is something really to look at. Surely there are negative options but do we get something better? Not at the moment. Maybe in 2013-2015. And like we have done in the past. We cannot rely on one producer or plane. If F6 fails we have Mirages...Now if JF17/J10 fails in certain aspect we can try F16 and vice versa... I think it is extremely tough for any opponent to counter two systems. We can be happy that we are able to do that.


 
How many modern fighters have seen real battle and those which saw battle, imagine they were pitched against air forces of what strength. think of strong air forces of Iraq and Taliban


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## siegecrossbow

WS-10 critics better EAT THEIR WORDS NOW:

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## Cool_Soldier

I don't see any harm by inducting J10A meanwhile and then J10B later on as per schedule i-e in 2014.Keeping in mind India's MMRCA plane will be available after 2015 and we need J10B to counter that machine.Hence decision of J10A's induction will counter SU30MKI.


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## razgriz19

siegecrossbow said:


> WS-10 critics better EAT THEIR WORDS NOW:


 
ooooh nice, but what the hell are they advertising!? a website?


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## houshanghai

razgriz19 said:


> ooooh nice, but what the are they advertising!? a website?


 yes,TOP81 is a very famous chinese military website.
LINK;

¶¦Ê¢¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³

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## S10

india rocks said:


> you are suggesting that j-10 a can counter su30mki ????


Considering J-10A recently slaughtered Su-30MK2 in air exercises 5:0, I'd say yes.

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## majesticpankaj

Cool_Soldier said:


> I don't see any harm by inducting J10A meanwhile and then J10B later on as per schedule i-e in 2014.Keeping in mind India's MMRCA plane will be available after 2015 and we need J10B to counter that machine.Hence decision of J10A's induction will counter SU30MKI.


 
2 sq J10 A against 200 odds mki's ??


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## Luftwaffe

majesticpankaj said:


> 2 sq J10 A against 200 odds mki's ??


 
Initial 2 squadrons and later FC-20/J-10B the number could climb to apart from those 36A variants to additional 58? If I'm not mistaken TaimiKhan might have the right figure after this change of recent plans search this thread and keep "makai" out of this thread.


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## Luftwaffe




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## SEAL

PAF believes in guzara, agar kam chal jaye ga to theek ha, achi chez lene ki kiya zarorat ha. 

J-10B is more advanced real 4.5 generation fighter jet, i am not satisfied with this induction until this confirmation that after 36 J-10A they will induct another 36 J-10B in 2014-15.

J-10A are not coming next month it will take time deliveries and induction will take atleast 2 years and if we wait 1 more year we can get J-10B instead, perhaps PAF buying used J-10A from PLAAF with avionics upgrade to counter this so called immediate threat.


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## abaseen99

CHINA GOT THE SECRETS OF U.S. F16 FIGHTER, AND J-10C BOMBER BORNChina got the secrets of U.S. F16 fighter, and J-10C bomber born | WAREYE



Aircraft carrier-based J-10 fighter



F-16D Block 50 combat training aircraft type http://wareye.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/CarrierbasedtwinengineJ10aircraft.jpg Carrier-based twin-engine J-10 aircraft


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## Pfpilot

fox said:


> PAF believes in guzara, agar kam chal jaye ga to theek ha, achi chez lene ki kiya zarorat ha.
> 
> J-10B is more advanced real 4.5 generation fighter jet, i am not satisfied with this induction until this confirmation that after 36 J-10A they will induct another 36 J-10B in 2014-15.
> 
> J-10A are not coming next month it will take time deliveries and induction will take atleast 2 years and if we wait 1 more year we can get J-10B instead, perhaps PAF buying used J-10A from PLAAF with avionics upgrade to counter this so called immediate threat.


 
Your are using flawed logic my friend. We need planes now, the only option is either the j-10a or f-16 block 52. The j-10b plan is still there, but it is of little relevance at this point because the plane is still under development. While that process plays out, we cant just sit around hoping the IAF wont take advantage of a massive superiority. There is no way we can procure the j-10b until it is ready, if the relevant authorities are to be believed, then is it really such a terrible idea to buy the best available equipment?


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## grey boy 2



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## siegecrossbow

Completing the jigsaw puzzle:

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We would welcome J10 with happy smile , fantastic plane

Of course if its A OR B its debatable but we are happy that we will get such a fantastic plane - a new plane that will allow us to retire quite a few mirages or other planes. 

The big picture is J10A or J10B is future for Pakistan Air-force we look forward to this beautiful plane

The BOTTOM LINE IS THAT CHINA is letting Pakistan have this beautiful plane what an honor to have this plane in our Airforce it would be happiest day for all PAF fans 






New planes 
Loaded
New Avionics
Upgraded weapons/avionics (high end)
All the missiles in world 
Integrated with awacs

What else can you ask for


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## air marshal

Jang Newspaper - July 30, 2011

Jang Multimedia

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## Manticore

Pakistan will be the first country to whom China will provide these state of the art planes.
''a squadron of j10b fighters''

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## Dr. Strangelove

ANTIBODY said:


>


 
hope we will get them soon


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## Khan Sahab

Ok... Conflicting reports here. The Chinese source says its J-10A (improved) that PAF will get while Jang claims it'll be J-10B! :S I hope the later becomes reality.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

actually many ppl dont get this but PAF will never ger J10A y the DSI designe was specific for PAF in the start but htan china also found it to be use ful J10 we get in the start mabe Lo on the avionics but they will have same out look as J10 B


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## HavocHeaven

razgriz19 said:


> ooooh nice, but what the hell are they advertising!? a website?


 
That's a WS-10 engine mounted on a J-10B. The WS-10 engines used to be for J11-B only.


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## HavocHeaven

S10 said:


> Considering J-10A recently slaughtered Su-30MK2 in air exercises 5:0, I'd say yes.


 
Yep , that has been confirmed by multiple sources. Ironically, back in 1990's some PLAAF officers looked down on CAC's J-10 and told PLAAF armament department something like give us Su-30 or we lose. What a slap in the face LOL


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## Mani2020

Yet another twist in the tail, looks like China and PAF wants to give PAF fans some sleepless nights

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## dilpakistani

Mani2020 said:


> Yet another twist in the tail, looks like China and PAF wants to give PAF fans some sleepless nights


 
Its not ... who ever said that Paf is buying j-10A mis-quoted the news..... J-10B is actually FC-20 which was agreed between Pakistan and China in 2006. DSI .. longer nose which looks more like f-16 and updated equipment as per PAF requirements are testament to the fact that its FC-20 which we are buying not j-10


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## houshanghai

lol,things is becoming more and more interesting.


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## Mani2020

houshanghai said:


> lol,things is becoming more and more interesting.


 
If this is what you call interesting than i hate interesting things lol

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

An Improved version of J10 = J10B , excuse me but J10B is not a brand new plane but an improved version of J10A

When Pakistan first reviewed the plane they gave a list of customization for Chinese partners , and obviously these changes resulted in J10B (plus the engine/structural changes Chinese were making anyways)


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## Mani2020

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> An Improved version of J10 = J10B , excuse me but J10B is not a brand new plane but an improved version of J10A


 
But there are many structural changes on J-10B which you can't get over night , you can upgrade J-10's to a new level but comparing them one to one with J-10b in features is not possible as J-10B has various structural changes and not only avionics, J-10B has different intakes, vertical stabilizer is changed, there is also a change in the nose. so improved version of J-10A is not equal to J-10B


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## Manticore

pictures reuploaded --

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## Manticore



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## houshanghai

J10B PT05 with WS10A

























+ a J20 pic

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## fatman17

30 Jul, 2011,

*China to give squadron of J10-B fighters to Pakistan*

ISLAMABAD: Taking bilateral defence relations to a new high,China will givePakistan a squadron of the advanced J-10B fighter aircraft, a media report said. 

The offer was made by senior Chinese military leaders to visiting Pakistan Army's Chief of General Staff, Lt. Gen.Waheed Arshad, the Urdu daily Jang reported on Saturday, quoting defence sources. 

The J-10B fighters are equipped with the latest weapons and Pakistan will be the first country, after China, to have these advanced aircraft, it said. 

During his visit, Lt.Gen.Arshad was assured that the defence relationship between the two countries will reach new heights and China's efforts for the safety and security of Pakistan will be never-ending. 

During his visit, Waheed called on General Ma Xiaotian, deputy chief of general staff of People's Liberation Army and other officials including Lt. General Ren Haiquan, the vice president of the National Defence University.

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## DESERT FIGHTER




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## air marshal

*In late-February 2006, the then-President of Pakistan, General (Retd) Pervez Musharraf was given a detailed briefing on J-10 during his visit to China.*

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## IceCold

So its official now that we will get the J-10b and not the A model as previously suggested by Chinese members. Finally a relief.


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## VelocuR

After Huzhigeng made statements about J-10A other threads! (http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...hin-cac-j-10b-j-20-also-pakistan-related.html)

*China to give squadron of J10-B fighters to Pakistan*
July 30, 2011


ISLAMABAD: Taking bilateral defence relations to a new high,China will give Pakistan a squadron of the advanced J-10B fighter aircraft, a media report said.

The offer was made by senior Chinese military leaders to visiting Pakistan Army's Chief of General Staff, Lt. Gen.Waheed Arshad, the Urdu daily Jang reported on Saturday, quoting defence sources.

The J-10B fighters are equipped with the latest weapons and Pakistan will be the first country, after China, to have these advanced aircraft, it said.

During his visit, Lt.Gen.Arshad was assured that the defence relationship between the two countries will reach new heights and China's efforts for the safety and security of Pakistan will be never-ending.

During his visit, Waheed called on General Ma Xiaotian, deputy chief of general staff of People's Liberation Army and other officials including Lt. General Ren Haiquan, the vice president of the National Defence University.







This beast- J-10B (IRST, DSI, bigger size, deep nose, HUD, Euro canards, AESA, more capables) 



More officials credible news than gossip.

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## IceCold

S10 said:


> Considering J-10A recently slaughtered Su-30MK2 in air exercises 5:0, I'd say yes.


 
which MK2 did the J-10A slaughtered? The Vietnamese?


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## TOPGUN

If true awsome news


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## Safriz

same question....

but when?


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## VelocuR

Not only this Jang, more news coming in Yahoo, Defences news, blogs, etc. Let's wait for few more days!

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Looks like we are getting 36 J10B and another 36 J10A

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## Dr. Strangelove

RaptorRX707 said:


> After Huzhigeng made statements about J-10A other threads! (http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...hin-cac-j-10b-j-20-also-pakistan-related.html)
> 
> *China to give squadron of J10-B fighters to Pakistan*
> July 30, 2011
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Taking bilateral defence relations to a new high,China will give Pakistan a squadron of the advanced J-10B fighter aircraft, a media report said.
> 
> The offer was made by senior Chinese military leaders to visiting Pakistan Army's Chief of General Staff, Lt. Gen.Waheed Arshad, the Urdu daily Jang reported on Saturday, quoting defence sources.
> 
> The J-10B fighters are equipped with the latest weapons and Pakistan will be the first country, after China, to have these advanced aircraft, it said.
> 
> During his visit, Lt.Gen.Arshad was assured that the defence relationship between the two countries will reach new heights and China's efforts for the safety and security of Pakistan will be never-ending.
> 
> During his visit, Waheed called on General Ma Xiaotian, deputy chief of general staff of People's Liberation Army and other officials including Lt. General Ren Haiquan, the vice president of the National Defence University.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This beast- J-10B (IRST, DSI, bigger size, deep nose, HUD, Euro canards, AESA, more capables)
> 
> 
> 
> More officials credible news than gossip.


 
I HAVE A QUESTION
WHEN THE DILIVERY OF THESE J10BS STARTS


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## siegecrossbow

air marshal said:


> *In late-February 2006, the then-President of Pakistan, General (Retd) Pervez Musharraf was given a detailed briefing on J-10 during his visit to China.*


 
I think the first guy to Musharraf's right is Yang Wei, chief designer of the Chengdu J-20.


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## Last Hope

I was just gonna post it  

Its been an old but classified new. No surprises here. Congrats to others for hearing this news

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## Moorkh

Are these planes coming on soft loans?

also, how much will they cost?


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## Dr. Strangelove

HOW MANY THESE J10BS WE WILL INDUCT 36 OR 50+


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## maxpayne

Hello all.
Well Pakistan plan to get 36 J10B immediately bcz of the air-power shift in subcontinent. Later on this figure will be released to counter indian purchasing of more advanced planes(mrca).


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well it would be logical to get 30-40 J10 A now , and then get 30 planes in 2015 J10B 

I think its a good strategy , it will give our pilots time to start using the planes immediately

I heard we will get 5-10 J10 fighter jets this year I saw it here on forum or was it 2-3 planes

Just look at the high tech gadgets on the J10 B protoype ... I mean a prototype looks so dangerous imagine a final product ....

Just top of the line ...

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## kartika

will there be local production?
is an AESA radar confirmed?


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## luckyyy

it's an offer , has it accepted ?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Having 40-60 J10 B is equal to having 120 Mirages , or something around that figure I mean the technological enhancements on this plane are just fantastic what a beautiful agile , and technological advance fighter jet to truely bring Pakistan into the 4.5 generation zone

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## monitor

Pakistan will get a total of 155 FC-20 which is modified version of J-10B from china in near future, but by 2014 at least 36 is coming .


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## araz

kartika said:


> will there be local production?
> is an AESA radar confirmed?


 
No to former and yes to latter.
Araz

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## Last Hope

*According to my Calculations, 36 J-10As and 36(Maybe increased) J-10Bs will be induced.*


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## ChineseTiger1986

Sometimes the insiders are prone to make the mistake, also they have different opinions as well.

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## godson

S10 said:


> Considering J-10A recently slaughtered Su-30MK2 in air exercises 5:0, I'd say yes.


 
Right! In another recent air countermine between J10A and SU30-mkv&#65292;J10A had locked SU30-mkv for times while SU30-mkv stiil not find where is J 10A.

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## razgriz19

PAF will only get 36 J-10s..
PAF will be composed of high-medium tech fighters by 2014!
roughly 100 aircrafts will be f-16s and J-10s! (high tech)
and roughly 200-250 will be medium tech, Jf-17 thunders!

i know some of you may argue about thunder-blk2 being more capable than f-16. well f-16s are one of those fighters, which even with crappy radars, can win air battles!


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## Donatello

Indians always asking if it is on soft loans or not. What difference does it make?

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## ChineseTiger1986

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well it would be logical to get 30-40 J10 A now , and then get 30 planes in 2015 J10B
> 
> I think its a good strategy , it will give our pilots time to start using the planes immediately
> 
> I heard we will get 5-10 J10 fighter jets this year I saw it here on forum or was it 2-3 planes
> 
> Just look at the high tech gadgets on the J10 B protoype ... I mean a prototype looks so dangerous imagine a final product ....
> 
> Just top of the line ...



The only reason that PAF may purchase the upgraded J-10A is because it has a different role with J-10B.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well its not loan, when President Musharraf (the honorable , who happened to oust some radicals during his time) , was in power 

Allah bhalla kare ...

Economy was doing fantastic and we had surplus of billion and billions of dollars

So he had paid for 36 J10B fighters, from the money. 
*So that order was paid in 2006 *

Obviously paper work was done around 2007-2008 but the money was paid already. 

So we have a set deadline for 2014 to receive our fighter planes, and we had an option for another *100 J10B fighters* 

Now the soft loan was actually proposed for purchase of the Submarines 6 submarines from China brand new I might add that is what Indian fans are confused about.

So the deal is for 36 J10 (A) with enhanced requirements (FC-20) as we know its called also known as J10B.

But just like the F16 C/D package we have a *OPTIONS CLAUSE* , for extra 100 planes depending on mood of our Air-force.

J10B is a wonderful bench mark in Chinese Aviation and we are really proud to have 36 planes plus option for 100 more fighters to form backbone of our airforce 



RECAP: 2015
80 F16 C/D 
300 JF17 (Block 1 , Block 2 ) 
36 J10B (FC-20) - option of 100 more a counter to MRCA 2016-2018
180 Mirage 
190 F-7

Note the 100 more J10B are mean for arrival as an option and that would help retire older Mirage/ F7 brand from airforce


But my thought is that India and Pakistan might come to light around 2017 and settle Kashmir issue once they see there is political deadlock

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## kartika

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> *Having 40-60 J10 B is equal to having 120 Mirages* , or something around that figure I mean the technological enhancements on this plane are just fantastic what a beautiful agile , and technological advance fighter jet to truely bring Pakistan into the 4.5 generation zone


 
you mean,which mirage?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

kartika said:


> you mean,which mirage?



I am talking about our mirages ... as you know they are a bit old not the sophisticated flying machines that Indian airforce has

We have a lost decade to make up for between 1990 - 2000 when we did not had any new planes and high mileage was recorded on our planes

But recent talks of simulators, and new planes is promising to make up for the lost decade

While in hand of good pilot the Mirage can still engage and protect airspace and even bring down some enemy intruders but , if we can get an upgrading done on our mirages with J10B its a very good news for Pakistan Airforce


But if Indian Air Cheif insist on making bad comments in news after seeing my posts , well then we might just keep our mirages up in air and equip them with SD-10 and keep them operational as well

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## epinephrine

i think they were offered to PAF many years ago n china was working on the upgrades in the j10 as per the demands of the paf.cabinet already has approved the purchase of j10 air craft.


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## rockstarIN

Did J-10B introduce to PLAAF yet? If not yet, when?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

rockstar said:


> Did J-10B introduce to PLAAF yet? If not yet, when?


 
I think China was flying J10 for good 7-10 years , and world did not knew about it 

China is also flying stealth planes and world had no clue 

So what makes you think China will have a press release and tell every one its J10B is not flying in air ?


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## TOPGUN

rockstar said:


> Did J-10B introduce to PLAAF yet? If not yet, when?


 
Who cares if it has or not but they will be soon enough be with PAF


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## kartika

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I am talking about our mirages ... as you know they are a bit old not the sophisticated flying machines that Indian airforce has
> 
> We have a lost decade to make up for between 1990 - 2000 when we did not had any new planes and high mileage was recorded on our planes
> 
> But recent talks of simulators, and new planes is promising to make up for the lost decade
> 
> While in hand of good pilot the Mirage can still engage and protect airspace and even bring down some enemy intruders but , if we can get an upgrading done on our mirages with J10B its a very good news for Pakistan Airforce
> 
> 
> But if Indian Air Cheif insist on making bad comments in news after seeing my posts , well then we might just keep our mirages up in air and equip them with SD-10 and keep them operational as well


 
still your comment that 36 j10b is better than 120 mirage is wrong.
those birds are still good especially when in the hands of a gud pilot.
as you said upgrade them and keep them in service atleast for the sake of numbers


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well I think its time for our Mirages to retire , in next 3-4 years , may be 8 if we are pushing the envelop
I mean 190 mirages is a big force , and with missiles and other tricks it is useful but I think its time to focus on 
replacing options

And J10B option fits in well with plans for modernization for airforce


100 F16
100 J10B
300 JF17 
5 Strategic Stealth Fighters

Is the ideal airforce 

With 80 J11 for Navy 

If we can attain that target we are good for 15 years


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## rockstarIN

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I think China was flying J10 for good 7-10 years , and world did not knew about it
> 
> China is also flying stealth planes and world had no clue
> 
> So what makes you think China will have a press release and tell every one its J10B is not flying in air ?


 
I know J-10 is there for years, I'm asking about J-10B.


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## somebozo

Weapon purchase always makes me happy! And this will take defense co-op to new level.
Will this be nuke capable?


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## Imran Khan

somebozo said:


> Weapon purchase always makes me happy! And this will take defense co-op to new level.
> Will this be nuke capable?


 
if it carry raad ALCM sure it is


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## Xracer

Because F16 Was Introduced in 1978 and made its First flight in 1974.it is in its mass production from 33 Years.After 33 years JF Thunder Will be That Much Mature Tooooooooooo


razgriz19 said:


> i know some of you may argue about thunder-blk2 being more capable than f-16. well f-16s are one of those fighters, which even with crappy radars, can win air battles!


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## Jungibaaz

J-10B? and J-10A?

either way, I'm extremely happy, thanks thread starter, you made my day!
This beast will be PAF's top notch beast!

Can't wait to see it in our colours.

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## Jungibaaz

somebozo said:


> Weapon purchase always makes me happy! And this will take defense co-op to new level.
> *Will this be nuke capable?*


 
Easily!!! Ra'ad could be be integrated, similarly to integration plans for JF-17.

but nuke capable isn't the exciting thing.
we could be seeing a 4.5 gen fighter!!! huge step up for PAF.

It marks the start a new more Chinese and less American future.


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## lmjiao

rockstar said:


> Did J-10B introduce to PLAAF yet? If not yet, when?


 
No, there is no J-10B in service in PLAAF/PLANAF.

The test of J-10B is not finished yet, especially when J-10B is now powered by a new engine WS-10/taihang.

The first block of J-10B with AL-31FN will come out this year, for PAF, I think.

Next blocks of J-10B will upgrade their engines to WS-10/Taihang.

I guess PAF may get J-10B before PLAAF, since PLAAF may prefer and waiting for J-10B/Taihang.

There are more news and pics of J-10B/WS-10 here, in this forum:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-defence/122518-pic-j-10b-ws-10x-8-1-anniversary.html
http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-defence/122233-news-within-cac-j-10b-j-20-also-pakistan-related.html

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## Jungibaaz

razgriz19 said:


> PAF will only get 36 J-10s..
> PAF will be composed of high-medium tech fighters by 2014!
> roughly 100 aircrafts will be f-16s and J-10s! (high tech)
> and roughly 200-250 will be medium tech, Jf-17 thunders!
> 
> i know some of you may argue about thunder-blk2 being more capable than f-16. well f-16s are one of those fighters, which even with crappy radars, can win air battles!


 
Sir, I don't think we'll have 200-250 thunders. 150 is a more realistic number, considering the shift from 4th gen JF-17 production to 4+/4.5gen block II production.

You may however see the number of J-10s and F-16 combined go above 100.

It's all utter speculation of course.


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## Jungibaaz

wasm95 said:


> HOW MANY THESE J10BS WE WILL INDUCT 36 OR 50+


 
I don't know mate, maybe a more well informed member can shed some light on it.

Initially, we heard of an order for 36, EH then said that PAF will get 58, now insiders are saying that we'll be getting J-10As, and other insiders saying 36 J-10B, also some talk to following orders after the first batch is delivered.

So for now, that is a really difficult question to answer.


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## razgriz19

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well I think its time for our Mirages to retire , in next 3-4 years , may be 8 if we are pushing the envelop
> I mean 190 mirages is a big force , and with missiles and other tricks it is useful but I think its time to focus on
> replacing options
> 
> And J10B option fits in well with plans for modernization for airforce
> 
> 
> *100 F16
> 100 J10B*
> 300 JF17
> * 5 Strategic Stealth Fighters*
> 
> Is the ideal airforce
> 
> With 8*0 J11 for Navy*
> 
> If we can attain that target we are good for 15 years


 
stop dreaming man...
noone's buying J-11, more F-16s are highly unlikely, and PAF wont get 100 J-10B!
i think PAF's fleet size would be between 350-400, which is more than good as all the aircrafts are new!
and one more thing, you see fighters are getting more and more expensive, and if we create a huge fleet now, we will face hard time replacing all the aircrafts in future...
our economic growth is just not sufficient to finance future expenses.


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## S.M.R

It is very good that we are getting out from trap of US and allies... They provide us on their terms .... in respect of price etc. and With china... we get on softer terms....

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## lmjiao

Jungibaaz said:


> J-10B? and J-10A?
> 
> either way, I'm extremely happy, thanks thread starter, you made my day!
> This beast will be PAF's top notch beast!
> 
> Can't wait to see it in our colours.


 
Fighters such as F-7,JF-17,A-5,etc are always much more beautiful in PAF colours.
I don't know why, but chinese engineers are doing really badly in painting.
Can't wait to see J-10 in PAF colours, since not untill then we will not know how beautiful they can be.

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## khurasaan1

wasm95 said:


> I HAVE A QUESTION
> WHEN THE DILIVERY OF THESE J10BS STARTS


 
the delivery will start this years end....like 4-5 aircrafts we will get at the years end....Insha-Allah...........
according to some Chinese resource in another forum......


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## S.M.R

Its real beauty....

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## pmukherjee

Delta wings with canards. Looks very mean. Congrats Pakistan.

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## Dil Pakistan

Did anyone notice the CFTs on the plane


RaptorRX707 said:


> After Huzhigeng made statements about J-10A other threads! (http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...hin-cac-j-10b-j-20-also-pakistan-related.html)
> 
> *China to give squadron of J10-B fighters to Pakistan*
> July 30, 2011
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Taking bilateral defence relations to a new high,China will give Pakistan a squadron of the advanced J-10B fighter aircraft, a media report said.
> 
> The offer was made by senior Chinese military leaders to visiting Pakistan Army's Chief of General Staff, Lt. Gen.Waheed Arshad, the Urdu daily Jang reported on Saturday, quoting defence sources.
> 
> The J-10B fighters are equipped with the latest weapons and Pakistan will be the first country, after China, to have these advanced aircraft, it said.
> 
> During his visit, Lt.Gen.Arshad was assured that the defence relationship between the two countries will reach new heights and China's efforts for the safety and security of Pakistan will be never-ending.
> 
> During his visit, Waheed called on General Ma Xiaotian, deputy chief of general staff of People's Liberation Army and other officials including Lt. General Ren Haiquan, the vice president of the National Defence University.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This beast- J-10B (IRST, DSI, bigger size, deep nose, HUD, Euro canards, AESA, more capables)
> 
> 
> 
> More officials credible news than gossip.


 
*Did Anyone notice the CFTs on the plane *

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## Imran Khan

khurasaan1 said:


> the delivery will start this years end....like 4-5 aircrafts we will get at the years end....Insha-Allah...........
> according to some Chinese resource in another forum......


 
that will be really first time in history of PAF when we got 2 types of front line fighters in a year block-52 and j-10 great .


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## VelocuR

Imran Khan said:


> that will be really first time in history of PAF when we got 2 types of front line fighters in a year block-52 and j-10 great .


 
J-10B = F-16 BLOCK 60

It is very higher than our current F-16 Blk 52. J-10A is like Block 30. 

Impatient to see it in PAF colors this yearr!

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## Imran Khan

RaptorRX707 said:


> J-10B = F-16 BLOCK 60
> 
> It is very higher than our current F-16 Blk 52.  J-10A is like Block 30.
> 
> Impatient to see it in PAF colors this yearr!


 

stay on one yaar its 60 or 30 lolz


----------



## Manticore

lmjiao said:


> Fighters such as F-7,JF-17,A-5,etc are always much more beautiful in PAF colours.
> I don't know why, but chinese engineers are doing really badly in painting.
> Can't wait to see J-10 in PAF colours, since not untill then we will not know how beautiful they can be.


 here you go , bro !















more here
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...p-experts-jf-17-wallpapers-9.html#post1984797

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## Manticore

i just uploaded it!

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## Jungibaaz

RaptorRX707 said:


> J-10B = F-16 BLOCK 60
> 
> It is very higher than our current F-16 Blk 52. J-10A is like Block 30.
> 
> Impatient to see it in PAF colors this yearr!


 
J-10A = block 30!? no way dude!
J-10A is very potent and much underestimated, all the hype of J10B has led to us forgetting it's true capability, remember that it beat the flankers on many occasions, also there is a difference between J-10 and J-10A(upgraded version).

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## abaseen99

Standard AA armament layout, PL8+PL11

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## VelocuR

Jungibaaz said:


> J-10A = block 30!? no way dude!
> J-10A is very potent and much underestimated, all the hype of J10B has led to us forgetting it's true capability, remember that it beat the flankers on many occasions, also there is a difference between J-10 and J-10A(upgraded version).


 
Please give me source of flankers beaten by J-10A in many occasions, do you mean someone from inexperienced pilots's Su-30MKI Vietnamese, that's very low bad degrading planes from Russia. Yes, good six times locked by J10A. Not only this, J-10A's DSI (square sharp) not great design in air intake. J10B will have much smaller RCS than current inventories including Su-30MKK. My understanding is it is approximately block 30-40. That's great compared to first F-16s A Blk 15. 

Someone asked how J10A beat Flankers many times.


> There is enough proof to the argument that *PLAAF has test and pitted its J-10A Dragons against its Su-30MKK Flankers. The results have been very encouraging for both the People's Liberation Army Air Force and Pakistan Air Force. For Pakistan Air Force in particular because they're in the process of acquiring the J-10Bs which are an advance version of J-10A Dragons. Also, it was recently reported that Pakistan Air Force is now conducting a Joint-Excersize with the People's Liberation Army Air Force.*
> 
> There is no relevance in pitting Pakistan Air Force Vipers against Flankers, simply because it would constitute as a valid strategic move. Even in actual war, Pakistan Air Force would be expected to use F-16s only for defending its own Air Space, guarding AEWs, IFRs and protecting our Nuclear Installations. Armed with the latest avionics and BVR Missiles, the Vipers would prove an ideal weapons system for enemy 'Air Denial' over its Air Space. Maintening 'Air Dominance' over home territory is vital to the outcome of any future war Pakistan might get pulled into. The J-10B/FC-20 would be exclusively used for COA Ops, providing cover for our Strike Groups into enemy territory.
> 
> It is understood that J-10B of China is designated by Pakistan Air Force as FC-20. A similar sort of designation is found with the Sino-Pak fighter, which is known as FC-1 in China and JF-17 Thunder in Pakistan





> ack when J-10 first came out, there were a lot of skepticism about its capabilities and deployment status. Even though the first J-10 regiment achieved operational status by 2004, many people questioned its status until it was officially declassified in late 2006. *At the same time, I read many reports about its successes in exercises against different flanker variants. Most people were rightfully skeptical toward such reports. As time went on, it became more and more obvious that J-10 was taken over the reign as the backbone of PLAAF from flankers. Even now, we still often read reports about J-10s crushing flankers and J-8s in different training exercises. *Even with all of its successes, the J-10 program still has experienced some stumbles along the way. I think most people would agree that propulsion is the biggest bottleneck for J-10. Due to lack of available domestic options and the Western arms embargo, China was forced to select AL-31FN as the powerplant. Details




Prices: the J-10B's cost approximately 40 million dollars, the J-10A estimated around 27 million dollars.

Note: PAF trains with PLAAF SU-30 fighters (not publicly by taking F-16s over to China). Also Chinese fighter train with PAF F-16s (to address Taiwan!).

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## houshanghai

RaptorRX707 said:


> Please give me source of flankers beaten by J-10A in many occasions, do you mean someone from inexperienced pilots's Su-30MKI Vietnamese, that's very low bad degrading planes from Russia. Yes, good six times locked by J10A. Not only this, J-10A's DSI (square sharp) not great design in air intake. J10B will have much smaller RCS than current inventories including Su-30MKK. My understanding is it is approximately block 30-40. That's great compared to first F-16s A Blk 15.
> 
> Someone asked how J10A beat Flankers many times.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prices: the J-10B's cost approximately 40 million dollars, the J-10A estimated around 27 million dollars.
> 
> Note: PAF trains with PLAAF SU-30 fighters (not publicly by taking F-16s over to China). Also Chinese fighter train with PAF F-16s (to address Taiwan!).


Not only PLAAF j10a defeated VAF SU30MK2 recently . but also PLAAF J10a defeated J11 in the air fighting exercise and the result is j10a *13:1* defeat at j11.
j10 defeat j11 videos

http://static.youku.com/v1.0.0166/v...MTgtai0xMC1mYy0yMC1tcmNhLTI0OS5odG1s&showAd=0

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## Cool_Soldier

All available news sources at the moment are mentioning PAF is Acquiring J10B.There are three version up to now J10, Second J10A, Third J10B.
Hopefully, we are in process of getting J10B.But Question is how long it will take to induct first Squadron of J10B..?


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## abaseen99

More Russian Engines for China&#8217;s J-10 Fighter
By: David Donald
July 18, 2011
Military Aircraft, Military Engines






The AL-31FN is based on the standard Su-27 engine but is reconfigured to suit it to single-engine applications. (Photo: NPO Saturn)

China has signed a fifth contract with Russia&#8217;s Rosoboronexport for the supply of Saturn AL-31FN military turbofan engines from the MMPP Salyut factory to power the Chengdu J-10 multi-role fighter, according to reports from Moscow.
The reports say the $500 million contract covers 123 engines for delivery by 2013, with the first 13 expected before the end of this year. This would take known Chinese procurement of the AL31FN to 399, plus an unspecified number provided in an initial batch for prototypes and pre-production aircraft. Such numbers are in line with analysis concerning expected Chinese procurement of the J-10.
Based on the standard AL-31F used to power versions of the Su-27 Flanker, the FN was redesigned by MMPP Salyut with its gearbox and accessories relocated to underneath the engine. Salyut has offered a number of more powerful versions to China, although it appears that the engines supplied to China so far have been to a common standard.
This new order for the AL-31FN has inevitably raised speculation concerning China&#8217;s indigenous Shenyang Liming WS-10A Taihang engine developed by the 606 Institute. That engine was originally intended for installation in the J-10 at some point. It has been suggested that the WS-10A, while it has been flying for some time in the Shenyang J-11B and J-15 unlicensed Flanker derivatives, might not be deemed reliable enough for a single-engine application.
It is also plausible that the Shenyang Aero Engine Works does not have the capacity to satisfy the demands of the J-10 line, which is in full-rate production, or simply that the Chinese are content with the Russian powerplant and have no desire to change More Russian Engines for China


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## Imran Khan

More Russian Engines for China&#8217;s J-10 Fighter

sure for pakistani orders and chines needs .


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## VelocuR

houshanghai said:


> Not only PLAAF j10a defeated VAF SU30MK2 recently . but also PLAAF J10a defeated J11 in the air fighting exercise and the result is j10a *13:1* defeat at j11.
> j10 defeat j11 videos
> 
> http://static.youku.com/v1.0.0166/v...MTgtai0xMC1mYy0yMC1tcmNhLTI0OS5odG1s&showAd=0


 
Bro, J-11 is based on Russian version SU-27SK in better avionics, radars, and weapons. I don't mean to upset or underestimate, you know J11/SU-27SK was old planes to compete with. 

Suggestion to try friendly dogfights exercise between F-16 Block 40 MLU (Pakistan) and J-10A. 

Pakistan plan to order J-11Bs for its Navy.


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## eurofighter

PAF is going for the upgraded j-10A's to fill the f-16 requirement gap,plus in emergency basis because j-10B is not ready to be procured,this makes a little sense.................................but still let's keep our fingers crossed,whatever will happen in the next couple of years will be more interesting for the PAF Fans


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## razgriz19

ANTIBODY said:


> i just uploaded it!


 
ok so it is confirmed that PLAAF is happy with the WS-10 engine!
and i couldn't help but noticing J-10B's take off run! it was so short! (probably because it didn't have any load but still!)


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## razgriz19

i dont get it, i remember people criticizing russia on spare parts supply...
if those romours were true then why are we going for the russian engine?

the video, above, clearly shows WS-10A is ready to loaded! they've been testing that engine long enough...


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## razgriz19

Dil Pakistan said:


> Did anyone notice the CFTs on the plane
> 
> *Did Anyone notice the CFTs on the plane *



its a photoshop picture my friend....


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## siegecrossbow

houshanghai said:


> Not only PLAAF j10a defeated VAF SU30MK2 recently . but also PLAAF J10a defeated J11 in the air fighting exercise and the result is j10a *13:1* defeat at j11.
> j10 defeat j11 videos
> 
> http://static.youku.com/v1.0.0166/v...MTgtai0xMC1mYy0yMC1tcmNhLTI0OS5odG1s&showAd=0


 
Do we know if they are J-11As or J-11Bs?


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## majesticpankaj

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well its not loan, when President Musharraf (the honorable , who happened to oust some radicals during his time) , was in power
> 
> Allah bhalla kare ...
> 
> Economy was doing fantastic and we had surplus of billion and billions of dollars
> 
> So he had paid for 36 J10B fighters, from the money.
> *So that order was paid in 2006 *
> 
> Obviously paper work was done around 2007-2008 but the money was paid already.
> 
> So we have a set deadline for 2014 to receive our fighter planes, and we had an option for another *100 J10B fighters*
> 
> Now the soft loan was actually proposed for purchase of the Submarines 6 submarines from China brand new I might add that is what Indian fans are confused about.
> 
> So the deal is for 36 J10 (A) with enhanced requirements (FC-20) as we know its called also known as J10B.
> 
> But just like the F16 C/D package we have a *OPTIONS CLAUSE* , for extra 100 planes depending on mood of our Air-force.
> 
> J10B is a wonderful bench mark in Chinese Aviation and we are really proud to have 36 planes plus option for 100 more fighters to form backbone of our airforce
> 
> 
> 
> RECAP: 2015
> 80 F16 C/D
> 300 JF17 (Block 1 , Block 2 )
> 36 J10B (FC-20) - option of 100 more a counter to MRCA 2016-2018
> 180 Mirage
> 190 F-7
> 
> Note the 100 more J10B are mean for arrival as an option and that would help retire older Mirage/ F7 brand from airforce
> 
> 
> But my thought is that India and Pakistan might come to light around 2017 and settle Kashmir issue once they see there is political deadlock


 
can any senior or knowledgeable person confirms the claims made in the post ??


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## khurasaan1

Imran Khan said:


> that will be really first time in history of PAF when we got 2 types of front line fighters in a year block-52 and j-10 great .


 
Alhamdolillah! yes indeed........


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## VelocuR

houshanghai said:


> Not only PLAAF j10a defeated VAF SU30MK2 recently . but also PLAAF J10a defeated J11 in the air fighting exercise and the result is j10a *13:1* defeat at j11.
> j10 defeat j11 videos
> 
> http://static.youku.com/v1.0.0166/v...gt ai0xMC1mYy0yMC1tcmNhLTI0OS5odG1s&showAd=0


 


siegecrossbow said:


> Do we know if they are J-11As or J-11Bs?


 
J-10A beat J-11B 13:1 during war exercise,PAF to acquire the B variant of J-10 !! 







> J-10 is far superior to su-27 in A2A combat, but we don't know how much better it is over J-11B in A2A combat. And also, the overall capability of J-11B is considered higher, because it has better range/load, so it can do certain tasks that J-10 can't do.


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## S10

Pakistan placed orders for J-10A, with some changes to internal systems. That was made very clear by Huzhigeng when someone asked whether Pakistan went for the A or B version. It's utterly ridiculous to think that China would be able to deliver J-10B to Pakistan when it does not even reach IOC until end of the year (Chinese Calendar terms, that means early next year in around January). He also stated that J-10A assembly line would stay open even after J-10B is inducted, because CAC would still need to fill the orders from Chinese Navy and Pakistan for A version.


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## pshamim

razgriz19 said:


> PAF will only get 36 J-10s..
> PAF will be composed of high-medium tech fighters by 2014!
> roughly 100 aircrafts will be f-16s and J-10s! (high tech)
> and roughly 200-250 will be medium tech, Jf-17 thunders!
> 
> i know some of you may argue about thunder-blk2 being more capable than f-16. well f-16s are one of those fighters, which even with crappy radars, can win air battles!



information was posted few months ago which mentioned that numbers were raised from 36 to 56 units but I have strong suspicion that the numbers may eventually be much higher due to the fact that there was news about TOT. You do not transfer technology for produvtion of small numbers.

I hope that those who were apprehensive about higher number than 36 should start to believe. I have also seen few members on CDF who regularly opine as if there statements are true and official Chinese Government's policy. whether it is about share of profit on JF-17 or number or type of J-10 or naval systems Pakistan receives, make me suspect that they are not in Mainland but situated across the border or across Taiwan strait.

I agree with S10. Friends should control their exubrance and think more rationally. There may be fre years before you start seeing the new birds in PAF. If Pakistan needs J-10s immediately then they will be J-10A.

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## houshanghai

siegecrossbow said:


> Do we know if they are J-11As or J-11Bs?


 
They are j11a

j11b has not wage warfare with j10a now.


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## atlantis_cn

J10B officially in PLAAF uniform:


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## farhan_9909

COngrats every one

atlast J-10B has entered into service


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## pshamim

S10 said:


> Pakistan placed orders for J-10A, with some changes to internal systems. because CAC would still need to fill the orders from Chinese Navy and Pakistan for A version.


 
Only if the order is for a stop-gap arrangement otherwise Huzhigeng is speculating.
I know for fact that each new changes that PAF requested for FC-20 were incorporated in J-10B. PAF will not be down in priority. Believe me.

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## S10

pshamim said:


> Only if the order is for a stop-gap arrangement otherwise Huzhigeng is speculating.
> I know for fact that each new changes that PAF requested for FC-20 were incorporated in J-10B. PAF will not be down in priority. Believe me.


Whether it is a stop-gap arrangement is not mentioned, only that J-10A is being exported. PAF does not have higher priority than China's own air force in terms of obtaining new toys, especially when the plane is made in China. That suggestion at the very minimum is silly.

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## itaskol



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## itaskol



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## itaskol



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## itaskol



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## itaskol



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## itaskol



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## itaskol



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## itaskol



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## itaskol

Picture FC 20 with J20.

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## itaskol

[video]http://player.56.com/v_NjIwODYxNzQ.swf[/video]

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## itaskol

[video]http://www.56.com/u73/v_NjIwODYxNzQ.html[/video]

test fly, jf17,fc20 ,j20 together

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## abaseen99

these posts already posted by antibody pleas stop it @ itaskol


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## TalhaBinTariq

Pak Fazzayya must not waste money in buying F-16s or Mirages other Western Planes, because then, we will be at the mercy of West in future war with India. On the other hand, China has not only helped us in past wars of 1965, 1971 (in 1971, First Premier Zhou En Lai offered F-5's that were to be delivered to PLAAF for free! Because he knew that PAF was fighting for Pakistan's life and our traditional "Allies" like the United Sates and France had placed embargo as usual!!!).

Also a wake-up call, the US Congress wants to shut down supply of weapons to Pakistan after Americans come home from Afghanistan with their tails between their legs. Yeah yeah, I know, Dejavu of Pressler Amendment. So the only country who is sincere to us is People's Republic of China. So we must de-Americanize our arsenal, to minimize any future setbacks. J-10 B is a quantum leap for PAF.

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## Manticore

credits houshangahi

J-10B PT01 with russian AL-31FN engine






J-10B PT05 with chinese WS10A engine

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## muse

Antibody

How do we tell that these pictures show two different engines?


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## SEAL

Our Typhoon

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## air marshal



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## Manticore

muse , petal shapes are different

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## hatf IX

ANTIBODY said:


>


 
can any one translate Chinese . . . . please


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## cloud1018

I hope PAF can get J-10B instead of J-10A.

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## Imran Khan

cloud1018 said:


> I hope PAF can get J-10B instead of J-10A.


 
whatever we are happy witj both .at lease we are getting new birds .

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## cloud1018

my English is too bad , so I just try to translate the words :

1.the top of radar cover
2.fuel pipe
3\4\5\6.something convex
6.inlet
7.&#65288;there is no difference&#65289;
8.sensor
9.engine

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## Imran Khan

cloud1018 said:


> my English is too bad , so I just try to translate the worlds :
> 
> 1.the top of radar cover
> 2.fuel pipe
> 3\4\5\6.something convex
> 6.inlet
> 7.&#65288;there is no difference&#65289;
> 8.sensor
> 9.engine


 
very very thank you dear we got it


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## farhan_9909

Imran Khan said:


> whatever we are happy witj both .at lease we are getting new birds .


 
nop..

if we were to get j-10A than why we waited so much for J-10A?
just think about the discussion we have done about j-10B?
it will break my heart if we are to get j-10A instead of j-10B.

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## Xracer

It Will InshALLAH


cloud1018 said:


> I hope PAF can get J-10B instead of J-10A.

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## houshanghai

muse said:


> Antibody
> 
> How do we tell that these pictures show two different engines?


 
sir,Listen carefully ,also the two engine's sounds are different .

J10A with al31fn





J10B with ws10a





The contrast of 2 sounds frequency curve pics are different too.

j10a with al31fn






j10b with ws10a

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## cloud1018

Xracer said:


> It Will InshALLAH


 
Yeah,may Allah bless pakistan.


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## cloud1018

Xracer said:


> It Will InshALLAH


 
Yeah```````````may Allah bless pakistan.

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## dilpakistani

cloud1018 said:


> Yeah```````````may god bless pakistan.


 
 desperately in love with that aircraft.... what a marvel from China.... awsmmm looking machine...

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## araz

farhan_9909 said:


> nop..
> 
> if we were to get j-10A than why we waited so much for J-10A?
> just think about the discussion we have done about j-10B?
> it will break my heart if we are to get j-10A instead of j-10B.


 
The short answer is 
A)Threat perception. What was a rosy garden once is fast turning into a blood fest, and it may get bloodier before it gets better.
B) PAFs reliance on US. We were hoping to get more Bl52s and MLU Bl15s to bring our fleet upto the needs of the time, and that source is appearing to dry up. So we need to upgrade fast.
C)time scale: Our need is dire and the FC20 may be a year away or the PLAAF may have demands it wants to fill first.We therefore will fall back on J10A with advanced avionics to meet our need and allow our main plane time to mature.
D) The chinese may have demanded that we buy a couple of Squadrons of J10As before they will supply FC20s and we have no objection to it at all.


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## abaseen99




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## CallsignAlzaeem

China is offering Pakistan a squadron of J-10B, the advanced multi-role, all-weather fighter aircraft. The official offer was presented to the Pakistan Army&#8217;s Chief of General Staff, Lt Gen Waheed Arshad, during a week long visit to Beijing. If such delivery takes place, Pakistan will be the first country, after China, to operate the J-10B, considered as one of China&#8217;s most advanced, operational combat aircraft. Pakistan and China have been negotiating the potential sale of Chengdu J-10 fighters for several years, with Pakistan seeking to acquire at least two squadrons of the aircraft. However, the newest B version, considered as comparable to the F-16 Block 50/52, surfaced for the first time last week.

Meanwhile the two countries are already underway in the local production of the Chinese designed JF-17, commonly known as &#8216;Thunder&#8217;. The aircraft is currently being produced in Pakistan and actively promoted for export in the world market.

The newest version of the aircraft designated J-10B made its first flight in 2009. The noticeable changes from the original J-10 are a new radome geometry reducing the radar signature of the aircraft, also contributing to this fighter&#8217;s stealth performance is the redesigned inlet, which also delivers higher massflow. Avionics compartments were also installed on the vertical tail and inboard pylons, probably containing various sensors and electronic countermeasures. A new electro-optical sensor turret, most likely an Infra-Red Search / Track (IRST) set has also been introduced. It is also assumed the new version is designed to be fitted with the more powerful engine and larger radar than those used on the J-10A version.

Here's the link :

China Officially Offers J-10 Fighters to Pakistan | Defense Update

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## pshamim

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> China is offering Pakistan a squadron of J-10B, Here's the link :
> 
> China Officially Offers J-10 Fighters to Pakistan | Defense Update


 Thanks Alzaeem,
Further confirmation that Pakistan is not getting an upgraded J-10A. The news by the insider seems to be wrong.

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## siegecrossbow

I personally think that the PAF will get a batch of J-10B with AESA and WS-10B engine before 2014. You've seen videos of the plane takeoff. It is gonna be impressive.

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## acetophenol

houshanghai said:


> sir,Listen carefully ,also the two engine's sounds are different .
> 
> J10A with al31fn


 can someone tell whats that covered aircraft in 2.30?it looks like our hal kiran.


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## SBD-3

pshamim said:


> Thanks Alzaeem,
> Further confirmation that Pakistan is not getting an upgraded J-10A. The news by the insider seems to be wrong.


Sir, here we are talking about a squadron, not a couple of, think this is above and beyond the ordered 36


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## cloud1018

But huzigeng,who is considered as an informed people in a famous military website ,said that AVIC CHENGDU AIRCRAFT INDUSTRY&#65288;GROUP&#65289;CORPORATION LTD has awarded a contract to provide more than a Squadron of J-10A (maybe the number is 36) to PAF .


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## SBD-3

cloud1018 said:


> But huzigeng,who is considered as an informed people in a famous military website ,said that AVIC CHENGDU AIRCRAFT INDUSTRY&#65288;GROUP&#65289;CORPORATION LTD has awarded a contract to provide more than a Squadron of J-10A (maybe the number is 36) to PAF .


The initial info on J-10B from insiders was that it was an export version for Pakistan, lets see what happens....


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## pshamim

cloud1018 said:


> But huzigeng,who is considered as an informed people in a famous military website ,said that AVIC CHENGDU AIRCRAFT INDUSTRY&#65288;GROUP&#65289;CORPORATION LTD has awarded a contract to provide more than a Squadron of J-10A (maybe the number is 36) to PAF .


 
Cloud1018, Many are aware that I was part of the business development team for F-16s at General Dynamics Corporation but G.D> had no control of the decisions made by US Government. It was always a changing situation as to what would eventually be on the table until the last minute. General Dynamics was not permitted to decide what the client would get but the US Government whose decisions were dependent on congressional and defence department analysis.
In case of J-10B, AVIC is not making the decisions but the Chinese Government is based on its foreign policy compulsions.

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## S10

pshamim said:


> Cloud1018, Many are aware that I was part of the business development team for F-16s at General Dynamics Corporation but G.D> had no control of the decisions made by US Government. It was always a changing situation as to what would eventually be on the table until the last minute. General Dynamics was not permitted to decide what the client would get but the US Government whose decisions were dependent on congressional and defence department analysis.
> In case of J-10B, AVIC is not making the decisions but the Chinese Government is based on its foreign policy compulsions.


Certainly the Chinese government decides what to sell to Pakistan, and it's ultimately not up to CAC to decide. However, it was known that Pakistan had signed the contracts for up to two squadrons of J-10A, and CAC has set aside production quota for that as reported by huzhigeng. In this case, it would be similar to someone from General Dynamics commenting the company was producing F-16 for a particular customer.

In addition, CAC is responsible for the progress of J-10B, and Chinese government cannot force them to accelerate the development without cutting safety corners. It is already known that J-10B will not join Chinese air force until end of the Chinese year (early 2011 in Western calandar). Judging by the enourmous need of the PLAAF, it is unlikely that it would be ready to deliver to foreign customers anytime soon.

Therefore, the logical conclusion is that Pakistan is indeed getting J-10A if it hopes for delivery in the next two years. Anything beyond that, the B version is possible.


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## IceCold

That is what happens when you over depend upon somebody. We Pakistanis tend to forget that and need to understand that a Country such as China also has certain requirements and no country in the world will give preference to someone else over those requirements, why do we expect anything different from China. Now coming to the conclusion that Pakistan is indeed getting the A version, question arises.....why? If PAF wasn't satisfied back then when it was offered, what changed now.......avionics? I doubt it that it was only the avionics that made PAF go for block 52 instead of J-10. If we go by the news few years back J-10 A was as capable as an F-16 block 40? Do we really need a block 40 caliber thing in present times when the threats are ever evolving. If 2nd May is the bench mark that made us think as many members suggested, what do we think or does the PAF think that they can pull off from the J-10A against F-18, f-22?What chance does the J-10 have against rafale or typhoon? Or is it that as usual the nation to made to believe in fall sense of security.


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## HavocHeaven

IceCold said:


> That is what happens when you over depend upon somebody. We Pakistanis tend to forget that and need to understand that a Country such as China also has certain requirements and no country in the world will give preference to someone else over those requirements, why do we expect anything different from China. Now coming to the conclusion that Pakistan is indeed getting the A version, question arises.....why? If PAF wasn't satisfied back then when it was offered, what changed now.......avionics? I doubt it that it was only the avionics that made PAF go for block 52 instead of J-10. If we go by the news few years back J-10 A was as capable as an F-16 block 40? Do we really need a block 40 caliber thing in present times when the threats are ever evolving. If 2nd May is the bench mark that made us think as many members suggested, what do we think or does the PAF think that they can pull off from the J-10A against F-18, f-22?What chance does the J-10 have against rafale or typhoon? Or is it that as usual the nation to made to believe in fall sense of security.



Nice input. I was also surprised by Huzhigeng's CDF post about the PAF acquisition of J10A. When your opponent is going after Rafale/Typhoon, J10A should not be your answer. I really hope PAF would just hold on for 2 or 3 years until J10B becomes available to PAF. Just don't rush . J10-B, in my point of view, can perfectly match PAF's need: ESA radar/ RCS reduction design / major overhaul of avonics, etc.

For China it is another story, J-10A can easily deal with Taiwan's F-16A/B and more importantly, the chance of Taiwan strait war is now almost zero.

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## HavocHeaven

houshanghai said:


> J10B with ws10a


 
Thanks for sharing! I have a feeling in my gut that they will meet again some day in Pakistan. 

I cannot wait to see these birds in Chengdu later this year!


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## Arsalan

pshamim said:


> Thanks Alzaeem,
> Further confirmation that Pakistan is not getting an upgraded J-10A. The news by the insider seems to be wrong.


 
yes, its almost confirmed, the insider news , as you siad might have got it a bit wrong here.



> ISLAMABAD:
> Taking bilateral defence relations to a new high, *China will give Pakistan a squadron of the advanced J-10B fighter aircraft*, a media report said.
> 
> The offer was made by senior Chinese military leaders to visiting Pakistan Army's Chief of General Staff, Lt. Gen. Waheed Arshad, the Urdu daily Jang reported on Saturday, quoting defence sources.
> 
> *The J-10B fighters are equipped with the latest weapons and Pakistan will be the first country, after China, to have these advanced aircraft, it said.*


China to give squadron of J10-B fighters to Pakistan - Economic Times

also being reported at:
http://www.combataircraft.com/en/News/2011/08/01/China-Officially-Offers-J-10-Fighters-to-Pakistan/
regards!


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## Xracer

Two Chinese People Liberation Army Air Force Chengdu J-10S flying in formation. The PLA/AF has ordered over 100 Chengdu J-10A. If the Pakistanis will pursue with their order they will be the first international operator of the J10. Photo PLA Air Force.
china is offering Pakistan a squadron of J-10B, the advanced multi-role, all-weather fighter aircraft. The official offer was presented to the Pakistan Army&#8217;s Chief of General Staff, Lt Gen Waheed Arshad, during a week long visit to Beijing. If such delivery takes place, Pakistan will be the first country, after China, to operate the J-10B, considered as one of China&#8217;s most advanced, operational combat aircraft. Pakistan and China have been negotiating the potential sale of Chengdu J-10 fighters for several years, with Pakistan seeking to acquire at least two squadrons of the aircraft. However, the newest B version, considered as comparable to the F-16 Block 50/52, surfaced for the first time last week.

Meanwhile the two countries are already underway in the local production of the Chinese designed JF-17, commonly known as &#8216;Thunder&#8217;. The aircraft is currently being produced in Pakistan and actively promoted for export in the world market.

The newest version of the aircraft designated J-10B made its first flight in 2009. The noticeable changes from the original J-10 are a new radome geometry reducing the radar signature of the aircraft, also contributing to this fighter&#8217;s stealth performance is the redesigned inlet, which also delivers higher massflow. Avionics compartments were also installed on the vertical tail and inboard pylons, probably containing various sensors and electronic countermeasures. A new electro-optical sensor turret, most likely an Infra-Red Search / Track (IRST) set has also been introduced. It is also assumed the new version is designed to be fitted with the more powerful engine and larger radar than those used on the J-10A version.

Chengdu J-10B, first flown in 2009 shows distinct modifications in the radome, air inlet, tail and wings. The aircraft is fitted with an IRST and is designed for a more powerful powerplant.


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## HavocHeaven

pshamim said:


> Cloud1018, Many are aware that I was part of the business development team for F-16s at General Dynamics Corporation but G.D> had no control of the decisions made by US Government. It was always a changing situation as to what would eventually be on the table until the last minute. General Dynamics was not permitted to decide what the client would get but the US Government whose decisions were dependent on congressional and defence department analysis.
> In case of J-10B, AVIC is not making the decisions but the Chinese Government is based on its foreign policy compulsions.



I think nothing prevents AVIC from exporting J-10B but production capacity. If PAF wants to get 1st place in the waiting queue, probably some lobbyists are needed to convince Chinese government that for China's own interest J-10B should be delivered to PAF ASAP, which is doable IMHO.


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## Pakistani Fighter

How many J-10B will Pakistan get????


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## Riz

IceCold said:


> That is what happens when you over depend upon somebody. We Pakistanis tend to forget that and need to understand that a Country such as China also has certain requirements and* no country in the world will give preference to someone else over those requirements*, why do we expect anything different from China. Now coming to the conclusion that Pakistan is indeed getting the A version, question arises.....why? If PAF wasn't satisfied back then when it was offered, what changed now.......avionics? I doubt it that it was only the avionics that made PAF go for block 52 instead of J-10. If we go by the news few years back J-10 A was as capable as an F-16 block 40? Do we really need a block 40 caliber thing in present times when the threats are ever evolving. If 2nd May is the bench mark that made us think as many members suggested, what do we think or does the PAF think that they can pull off from the J-10A against F-18, f-22?What chance does the J-10 have against rafale or typhoon? Or is it that as usual the nation to made to believe in fall sense of security.


 
Did not Russia Sold an upgraded version of SU 30 MKI to india, as for i know it was far more better version then the Russain was operationg itself ?


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## Arsalan

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> How many J-10B will Pakistan get????


 
all the initial plans reported are of 36 planes. however, it is also said that the number can go upto 72.


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## DANGER-ZONE

More positive News are changing my views ...... lets hope it turns out to be J-10B instead of A.
Because it is the only potential fighter that can counter SU-30MKI and MMRCA Winner, while J-10A is lacking such capabilities. If we got J-10A that means we have done nothing for MKI ...


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## bc040400065

even if J10A is equal to blk40, my personal choice would be j10A any day. because we don't have money to waste on F16s.


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## Beast

I think China is trying to convince Pakistan it can offer what the USA provided by offering J-10B and even given them the priority to acquire. It might be an attempt to make PAF drop the idea to get more inferior Blk 52. They want PAF to have an all Chinese hardware.

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

I am really feeling sad , its disgusting to get old technology. no place for j-10A.................


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## Arsalan

Beast said:


> I think China is trying to convince Pakistan it can offer what the USA provided by offering J-10B and even given them the priority to acquire. It might be an attempt to make PAF drop the idea to get more inferior Blk 52. They want PAF to have an all Chinese hardware.


 
and the F-16 do get fropped due to this, i do ot have words to thank china!!
it will be great for Pakistan to stick to J-10B option and cut the F-16z!

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

SLAMABAD: Taking bilateral defence relations to a new high, China will give Pakistan a squadron of the advanced J-10B fighter aircraft, a media report said.

The offer was made by senior Chinese military leaders to visiting Pakistan Army's Chief of General Staff, Lt. Gen. Waheed Arshad, the Urdu daily Jang reported on Saturday, quoting defence sources.

The J-10B fighters are equipped with the latest weapons and Pakistan will be the first country, after China, to have these advanced aircraft, it said.


it,s the news of 30th july.... from where has come j-10a now


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## Arsalan

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> I am really feeling sad , its disgusting to get old technology. no place for j-10A.................


 
perhaps you didnt read the last few posts,(last two pages), atleast look at the posts on this page above your post.
the J-10A is long gone. many sources have confirmed that it will be J-10B


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## Manticore

why are people so looking down on j10a ? it has range and payload , plus can be upgraded e aesa radar


j10a is not that obsolete as you might think..
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca-418.html#post1957879


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## WAQAS119

*China Officially Offers J-10 Fighters to Pakistan*

China is offering Pakistan a squadron of J-10B, the advanced multi-role, all-weather fighter aircraft. The official offer was presented to the Pakistan Army&#8217;s Chief of General Staff, Lt Gen Waheed Arshad, during a week long visit to Beijing. If such delivery takes place, Pakistan will be the first country, after China, to operate the J-10B, considered as one of China&#8217;s most advanced, operational combat aircraft.


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## Imran Khan

same old news waqas bro .


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## Imran Khan

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> I am really feeling sad , its disgusting to get old technology. no place for j-10A.................


 
i don't any such reason bro j-10b need some time and sure we will get them


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## abaseen99



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## Arsalan

ANTIBODY said:


> why are people so looking down on j10a ? it has range and payload , plus can be upgraded e aesa radar
> 
> 
> j10a is not that obsolete as you might think..
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca-418.html#post1957879


 
well there is no point in getting a new platform with an intention to get it upgraded with AESA straight away., this does not make any sense.
apart from the AESA, the J-10B also have an IRST, better design for improved RCS, better EW suite and sensors and DSI etc.




anyways, there is no point comparing the two for PAF since the issue has been cleard and PAF will be getting the J-10B.
this will be our true answer to MKI and MMRCA. will be nicely supported by the 36 F-16 Blk-52 and JFT as well.


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## Manticore

^ i know somewhat of the differences between the 2 j10 fighters --- this is my video






however i was pointing out , other than the blk52 , we dont have any other comparable fighters in its payload category -- and avionics can be updated anyway

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## houshanghai

new pic

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## Xracer

YARO can anyone Compare J10bs with Sukhoi Su-30MKI and Dassault Rafale PLzzzzzzzzzzz


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## abaseen99

????-???-?????????10B???? j 10 b test fly


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## abaseen99




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## abaseen99




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## krash

houshanghai said:


> new pic


 
Whats up with the PLAAF and black (or very dark) radomes? The bird looked allot sexier with the grey radome. Plus, as was the case with the earlier F-16s, these dark radomes will make the bird easier to spot from a distance.


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## pshamim

Notice the fixed probe


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## SBD-3

pshamim said:


> Notice the fixed probe


Nose appears to be smaller than J-10A, I cant see AoA prob though, and the somebody mentioned JHMCS kind of HMD, it looks like TK series helmet in the pic.....


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## pshamim

Here is an article from Chinesemil. security blog. It provides details on several deals between Pakistan and China. What is really interesting that it mentions that Pakistan was interested in FC-20, an export version of J-10B and also about the 6 AIP submarinesI t That is one of the reasons that Pakistanis were so enthusiastic about J-10B development. This article clears up few things but I am not sure if it will able to convince some who do not want to believe and consider personal opinions as facts.
I do not know where to post it since article covers all aspects of the military cooperation. Mods may delete and post it where appropriate.


*Wholesale defence Deals-Pakistan And China from Chinesemil.blog*

Pakistan has looked towards its traditional ally after being bashed by the United States for its defense needs in 1965 and Pak-China defense & economic relationship never looked back. Current visit of the Pakistani Minister was a great success by all means as Pakistan was able to not only pursue China to stand by it in these difficult times but also agreed on number of pending defense deals.

Gawadar Port:

China has agreed to take over the operations of Gawadar Port in Pakistan at the request of the federal government after the

agreement with the Singapore Port Authority expires. Pakistani Defense Minister, Chaudhry Ahmad Mukhtar has announced in front of local media that Pakistan asked for Chinese in number of fields and China was immediately ready to help Pakistan in any way possible.

Type 054A Jiangkai-II Stealth Frigateakistani Defense Minister, Chaudhry Ahmad Mukhtar has said that China has also agreed to provide loan for the purchase of the Chinese 4400 ton frigate. This agreement will clear the financial problems of the Pakistan Navy and it will be able to purchase new generation stealth Type 054A Jiangkai II Multi-Role frigate which is equipped with the HQ-16 Medium-Range Air Defence Missiles.

Chinese HQ-16 Surface to Air missile have range of over 50 kilometers launched from 32 vertical launch system (VLS) and is far more superior then the FM-90N surface-to-air missile (SAM) used on the F-22P Zulfiquar class frigate. Frigate will also use 8 C-802A or C-803 antiship missiles which have range in excess of 180km. Type 054A Jiangkai II frigate is designed with stealth features, including sloped hull design, radar.

Submarines:

Pakistan and China has also agreed to provide training to the personal of the Pakistan Navy on the Chinese submarines. *Pakistani and China has already agreed earlier this year to jointly development and co-production of diesel electric submarines fitted with the Air Independent Propulsion to meet Pakistan Navy&#8217;s long standing requirement of six new generation of submarines.*

Unconfirmed news from Indian sources also suggest that Pakistan and China has also discussed the possibility of leasing a Chinese nuclear powered attack submarine SSN to Pakistan Navy for limited time period.

Pakistan Navy has shown interest in leasing of SSN after the Indian leasing of SSN from Russia and construction of nuclear powered submarine armed with submarine launched ballistic missiles with Russian help.

New Naval Base:

Pakistani defence minister has also said that Pakistan has requested China to construct a naval base for Pakistan at the site of Gawader. This would be the third main naval base for the Pakistan navy.

JF-17 Thunders:

Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani has also asked Chinese counterpart to pursue PLAAF (Peoples Liberation Army Air Force) to induct JF-17 Thunder fighter jets in their air fleet. He said that this will bring lot of publicity for JF-17 Thunder which will be good for exports and further decrease the cost.

Pakistan and China has also agreed on the co-production of second batch of the JF-17 thunder aircraft for the Pakistan air force with advance avionics.

*FC-20 Fighter Jets:

Pakistani Defense Minister, Chaudhry Ahmad Mukhtar has confirmed that Chinese friends have agreed to the Pakistani request to provide FC-20 fighter jet to the Pakistan Air Force.

FC-20 is an export version of the Chinese J-10B is a multirole fighter jet which was developed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) for the People&#8217;s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). J-10B was first time promoted to the Pakistan in 2006 during the visit of then President of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf who was allowed to sit in the cockpit of J-10B. This made him the first foreign head of state to see the aircraft even before its existence was officially recognized.

On 12 April 2006 the Pakistani federal cabinet allowed Pakistan Air Force (PAF) to start negotiations for the initial purchase of 36 J-10Bs under designations of FC-20. Since then Pakistan Air Force has requested our Chinese friends to develop an improved version to meet the Pakistani requirements of high end front line fighter jet.

In 2009, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed, then Chief of the Air Staff of the PAF confirmed the Pakistani interest in purchase of atlease two squadrons of FC-20 in initial phase.*He also said Islamabad had asked Beijing to convey a message to Washington that &#8220;our sovereignty be respected&#8221;.

The Chinese government &#8220;assured us of help in removing hurdles in the way of Pakistan&#8217;s progress&#8221;, the Defence Minister said. 


Whole Sale Defence Deals: Pakistan And China from chinesemil.blogspot.com | The China Military Security and Intelligence Blog

This entry was posted on Tuesday, May 24th, 2011 at 4:23 pm and is filed under China. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Arsalan

ANTIBODY said:


> ^ i know somewhat of the differences between the 2 j10 fighters --- this is my video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> however i was pointing out , other than the blk52 , we dont have any other comparable fighters in its payload category -- and avionics can be updated anyway



i dont mean to say that you dont know the difference. 
my point is that although the J-10A will be equally good as the F-16z but the upgraded J-10B is a true counter weight to MMRCA!

well i have read most of your posts regarding the J-10B i and i bet you know more then i do and also i have understood your point! 

anyways, its not an issue anymore with PAF being reported to go for J-10B!

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## Silk

pshamim said:


> Here is an article from Chinesemil. security blog. It provides details on several deals between Pakistan and China. What is really interesting that it mentions that Pakistan was interested in FC-20, an export version of J-10B and also about the 6 AIP submarinesI t That is one of the reasons that Pakistanis were so enthusiastic about J-10B development. This article clears up few things but I am not sure if it will able to convince some who do not want to believe and consider personal opinions as facts.
> I do not know where to post it since article covers all aspects of the military cooperation. Mods may delete and post it where appropriate.
> 
> 
> *Wholesale defence Deals-Pakistan And China from Chinesemil.blog*
> 
> Pakistan has looked towards its traditional ally after being bashed by the United States for its defense needs in 1965 and Pak-China defense & economic relationship never looked back. Current visit of the Pakistani Minister was a great success by all means as Pakistan was able to not only pursue China to stand by it in these difficult times but also agreed on number of pending defense deals.
> 
> Gawadar Port:
> 
> China has agreed to take over the operations of Gawadar Port in Pakistan at the request of the federal government after the
> 
> agreement with the Singapore Port Authority expires. Pakistani Defense Minister, Chaudhry Ahmad Mukhtar has announced in front of local media that Pakistan asked for Chinese in number of fields and China was immediately ready to help Pakistan in any way possible.
> 
> Type 054A Jiangkai-II Stealth Frigateakistani Defense Minister, Chaudhry Ahmad Mukhtar has said that China has also agreed to provide loan for the purchase of the Chinese 4400 ton frigate. This agreement will clear the financial problems of the Pakistan Navy and it will be able to purchase new generation stealth Type 054A Jiangkai II Multi-Role frigate which is equipped with the HQ-16 Medium-Range Air Defence Missiles.
> 
> Chinese HQ-16 Surface to Air missile have range of over 50 kilometers launched from 32 vertical launch system (VLS) and is far more superior then the FM-90N surface-to-air missile (SAM) used on the F-22P Zulfiquar class frigate. Frigate will also use 8 C-802A or C-803 antiship missiles which have range in excess of 180km. Type 054A Jiangkai II frigate is designed with stealth features, including sloped hull design, radar.
> 
> Submarines:
> 
> Pakistan and China has also agreed to provide training to the personal of the Pakistan Navy on the Chinese submarines. *Pakistani and China has already agreed earlier this year to jointly development and co-production of diesel electric submarines fitted with the Air Independent Propulsion to meet Pakistan Navy&#8217;s long standing requirement of six new generation of submarines.*
> 
> Unconfirmed news from Indian sources also suggest that Pakistan and China has also discussed the possibility of leasing a Chinese nuclear powered attack submarine SSN to Pakistan Navy for limited time period.
> 
> Pakistan Navy has shown interest in leasing of SSN after the Indian leasing of SSN from Russia and construction of nuclear powered submarine armed with submarine launched ballistic missiles with Russian help.
> 
> New Naval Base:
> 
> Pakistani defence minister has also said that Pakistan has requested China to construct a naval base for Pakistan at the site of Gawader. This would be the third main naval base for the Pakistan navy.
> 
> JF-17 Thunders:
> 
> Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani has also asked Chinese counterpart to pursue PLAAF (Peoples Liberation Army Air Force) to induct JF-17 Thunder fighter jets in their air fleet. He said that this will bring lot of publicity for JF-17 Thunder which will be good for exports and further decrease the cost.
> 
> Pakistan and China has also agreed on the co-production of second batch of the JF-17 thunder aircraft for the Pakistan air force with advance avionics.
> 
> *FC-20 Fighter Jets:
> 
> Pakistani Defense Minister, Chaudhry Ahmad Mukhtar has confirmed that Chinese friends have agreed to the Pakistani request to provide FC-20 fighter jet to the Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> FC-20 is an export version of the Chinese J-10B is a multirole fighter jet which was developed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) for the People&#8217;s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). J-10B was first time promoted to the Pakistan in 2006 during the visit of then President of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf who was allowed to sit in the cockpit of J-10B. This made him the first foreign head of state to see the aircraft even before its existence was officially recognized.
> 
> On 12 April 2006 the Pakistani federal cabinet allowed Pakistan Air Force (PAF) to start negotiations for the initial purchase of 36 J-10Bs under designations of FC-20. Since then Pakistan Air Force has requested our Chinese friends to develop an improved version to meet the Pakistani requirements of high end front line fighter jet.
> 
> In 2009, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed, then Chief of the Air Staff of the PAF confirmed the Pakistani interest in purchase of atlease two squadrons of FC-20 in initial phase.*He also said Islamabad had asked Beijing to convey a message to Washington that &#8220;our sovereignty be respected&#8221;.
> 
> The Chinese government &#8220;assured us of help in removing hurdles in the way of Pakistan&#8217;s progress&#8221;, the Defence Minister said.
> 
> 
> Whole Sale Defence Deals: Pakistan And China from chinesemil.blogspot.com | The China Military Security and Intelligence Blog
> 
> This entry was posted on Tuesday, May 24th, 2011 at 4:23 pm and is filed under China. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.


 

>>> J-10B was first time promoted to the Pakistan in 2006 during the visit of then President of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf who was allowed to sit in the cockpit of J-10B.

Huitong: This much improved variant (1031 prototype) made its maiden flight on December 23, 2008, powered by a Russian AL-31FN engine.

I am not so sure that mr Musharraf sat actually in the J10B.


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## CallsignAlzaeem

pshamim said:


> Thanks Alzaeem,
> Further confirmation that Pakistan is not getting an upgraded J-10A. The news by the insider seems to be wrong.



Anytime sir you are more than welcome.


----------



## S10

pshamim said:


> Here is an article from Chinesemil. security blog. It provides details on several deals between Pakistan and China. What is really interesting that it mentions that Pakistan was interested in FC-20, an export version of J-10B and also about the 6 AIP submarinesI t That is one of the reasons that Pakistanis were so enthusiastic about J-10B development. This article clears up few things but I am not sure if it will able to convince some who do not want to believe and consider personal opinions as facts.
> I do not know where to post it since article covers all aspects of the military cooperation. Mods may delete and post it where appropriate.
> 
> 
> *Wholesale defence Deals-Pakistan And China from Chinesemil.blog*
> 
> Pakistan has looked towards its traditional ally after being bashed by the United States for its defense needs in 1965 and Pak-China defense & economic relationship never looked back. Current visit of the Pakistani Minister was a great success by all means as Pakistan was able to not only pursue China to stand by it in these difficult times but also agreed on number of pending defense deals.
> 
> Gawadar Port:
> 
> China has agreed to take over the operations of Gawadar Port in Pakistan at the request of the federal government after the
> 
> agreement with the Singapore Port Authority expires. Pakistani Defense Minister, Chaudhry Ahmad Mukhtar has announced in front of local media that Pakistan asked for Chinese in number of fields and China was immediately ready to help Pakistan in any way possible.
> 
> Type 054A Jiangkai-II Stealth Frigateakistani Defense Minister, Chaudhry Ahmad Mukhtar has said that China has also agreed to provide loan for the purchase of the Chinese 4400 ton frigate. This agreement will clear the financial problems of the Pakistan Navy and it will be able to purchase new generation stealth Type 054A Jiangkai II Multi-Role frigate which is equipped with the HQ-16 Medium-Range Air Defence Missiles.
> 
> Chinese HQ-16 Surface to Air missile have range of over 50 kilometers launched from 32 vertical launch system (VLS) and is far more superior then the FM-90N surface-to-air missile (SAM) used on the F-22P Zulfiquar class frigate. Frigate will also use 8 C-802A or C-803 antiship missiles which have range in excess of 180km. Type 054A Jiangkai II frigate is designed with stealth features, including sloped hull design, radar.
> 
> Submarines:
> 
> Pakistan and China has also agreed to provide training to the personal of the Pakistan Navy on the Chinese submarines. *Pakistani and China has already agreed earlier this year to jointly development and co-production of diesel electric submarines fitted with the Air Independent Propulsion to meet Pakistan Navy&#8217;s long standing requirement of six new generation of submarines.*
> 
> Unconfirmed news from Indian sources also suggest that Pakistan and China has also discussed the possibility of leasing a Chinese nuclear powered attack submarine SSN to Pakistan Navy for limited time period.
> 
> Pakistan Navy has shown interest in leasing of SSN after the Indian leasing of SSN from Russia and construction of nuclear powered submarine armed with submarine launched ballistic missiles with Russian help.
> 
> New Naval Base:
> 
> Pakistani defence minister has also said that Pakistan has requested China to construct a naval base for Pakistan at the site of Gawader. This would be the third main naval base for the Pakistan navy.
> 
> JF-17 Thunders:
> 
> Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani has also asked Chinese counterpart to pursue PLAAF (Peoples Liberation Army Air Force) to induct JF-17 Thunder fighter jets in their air fleet. He said that this will bring lot of publicity for JF-17 Thunder which will be good for exports and further decrease the cost.
> 
> Pakistan and China has also agreed on the co-production of second batch of the JF-17 thunder aircraft for the Pakistan air force with advance avionics.
> 
> *FC-20 Fighter Jets:
> 
> Pakistani Defense Minister, Chaudhry Ahmad Mukhtar has confirmed that Chinese friends have agreed to the Pakistani request to provide FC-20 fighter jet to the Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> FC-20 is an export version of the Chinese J-10B is a multirole fighter jet which was developed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) for the People&#8217;s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF). J-10B was first time promoted to the Pakistan in 2006 during the visit of then President of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf who was allowed to sit in the cockpit of J-10B. This made him the first foreign head of state to see the aircraft even before its existence was officially recognized.
> 
> On 12 April 2006 the Pakistani federal cabinet allowed Pakistan Air Force (PAF) to start negotiations for the initial purchase of 36 J-10Bs under designations of FC-20. Since then Pakistan Air Force has requested our Chinese friends to develop an improved version to meet the Pakistani requirements of high end front line fighter jet.
> 
> In 2009, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed, then Chief of the Air Staff of the PAF confirmed the Pakistani interest in purchase of atlease two squadrons of FC-20 in initial phase.*He also said Islamabad had asked Beijing to convey a message to Washington that &#8220;our sovereignty be respected&#8221;.
> 
> The Chinese government &#8220;assured us of help in removing hurdles in the way of Pakistan&#8217;s progress&#8221;, the Defence Minister said.
> 
> 
> Whole Sale Defence Deals: Pakistan And China from chinesemil.blogspot.com | The China Military Security and Intelligence Blog
> 
> This entry was posted on Tuesday, May 24th, 2011 at 4:23 pm and is filed under China. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.


Whoever wrote that piece is in over his head. Musharraf sitting inside the cockpit of J-10B in 2006? The first J-10B prototype wasn't built until late 2008, and it's still undergoing testing at this very moment.


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## pshamim

S10 No one has claimed that he sat in J-10B cockpit. Pakistan was interested in the J-10 but with a lot of changes. Pakistan called it FC-20. They were never interested in the J-10A variant. FC-20 changes were incorporated and the result is j-10B

This argument is looking more and more like a pissing contest and let us move on.


----------



## Creder

cant really say much it looks like its from a blog


*China Officially Offers J-10 Fighters to Pakistan​*
China is offering Pakistan a squadron of J-10B, the advanced multi-role, all-weather fighter aircraft. The official offer was presented to the Pakistan Army&#8217;s Chief of General Staff, Lt Gen Waheed Arshad, during a week long visit to Beijing. If such delivery takes place, Pakistan will be the first country, after China, to operate the J-10B, considered as one of China&#8217;s most advanced, operational combat aircraft. Pakistan and China have been negotiating the potential sale of Chengdu J-10 fighters for several years, with Pakistan seeking to acquire at least two squadrons of the aircraft. However, the newest B version, considered as comparable to the F-16 Block 50/52, surfaced for the first time last week.

Meanwhile the two countries are already underway in the local production of the Chinese designed JF-17, commonly known as &#8216;Thunder&#8217;. The aircraft is currently being produced in Pakistan and actively promoted for export in the world market.

The newest version of the aircraft designated J-10B made its first flight in 2009. The noticeable changes from the original J-10 are a new radome geometry reducing the radar signature of the aircraft, also contributing to this fighter&#8217;s stealth performance is the redesigned inlet, which also delivers higher massflow. Avionics compartments were also installed on the vertical tail and inboard pylons, probably containing various sensors and electronic countermeasures. A new electro-optical sensor turret, most likely an Infra-Red Search / Track (IRST) set has also been introduced. It is also assumed the new version is designed to be fitted with the more powerful engine and larger radar than those used on the J-10A version.


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## Imran Khan

pshamim said:


> Notice the fixed probe


 
even j-10b sir its mean j-10c have erectable pod?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## houshanghai

krash said:


> Whats up with the PLAAF and black (or very dark) radomes? The bird looked allot sexier with the grey radome. Plus, as was the case with the earlier F-16s, these dark radomes will make the bird easier to spot from a distance.


 
PLAAF had always ugly paintwork in the past.May be PLAAF have just learnt the technique of paintwork from PAF


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## MastanKhan

Imran Khan said:


> even j-10b sir its mean j-10c have erectable pod?


 
Imran Khan----"erectable pod"----what kind of pod is that!


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## Mani2020

*China Officially Offers J-10 Fighters to Pakistanaerospace_featured *


The PLA/AF has ordered over 100 Chengdu J-10A. If the Pakistanis will pursue with their order they will be the first international operator of the J10. China is offering Pakistan a squadron of J-10B, the advanced multi-role, all-weather fighter aircraft. The official offer was presented to the Pakistan Army&#8217;s Chief of General Staff, Lt Gen Waheed Arshad, during a week long visit to Beijing. If such delivery takes place, Pakistan will be the first country, after China, to operate the J-10B, considered as one of China&#8217;s most advanced, operational combat aircraft. Pakistan and China have been negotiating the potential sale of Chengdu J-10 fighters for several years, with Pakistan seeking to acquire at least two squadrons of the aircraft. However, the newest B version, considered as comparable to the F-16 Block 50/52, surfaced for the first time last week.

Meanwhile the two countries are already underway in the local production of the Chinese designed JF-17, commonly known as &#8216;Thunder&#8217;. The aircraft is currently being produced in Pakistan and actively promoted for export in the world market.

The newest version of the aircraft designated J-10B made its first flight in 2009. The noticeable changes from the original J-10 are a new radome geometry reducing the radar signature of the aircraft, also contributing to this fighter&#8217;s stealth performance is the redesigned inlet, which also delivers higher massflow. Avionics compartments were also installed on the vertical tail and inboard pylons, probably containing various sensors and electronic countermeasures. A new electro-optical sensor turret, most likely an Infra-Red Search / Track (IRST) set has also been introduced. It is also assumed the new version is designed to be fitted with the more powerful engine and larger radar than those used on the J-10A version.

China Officially Offers J-10 Fighters to Pakistan | Defense Update


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## lmjiao

arsalanaslam123 said:


> and the F-16 do get fropped due to this, i do ot have words to thank china!!
> it will be great for Pakistan to stick to J-10B option and cut the F-16z!


 
Accutually, In my own opinion, multiply source of Fighters is good for PAF.


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## Areesh

MastanKhan said:


> Imran Khan----"erectable pod"----what kind of pod is that!


 
Hahahahaha. I was thinking the same. At least J10b won't like this pod.


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## S10

pshamim said:


> S10 No one has claimed that he sat in J-10B cockpit. Pakistan was interested in the J-10 but with a lot of changes. Pakistan called it FC-20. They were never interested in the J-10A variant. FC-20 changes were incorporated and the result is j-10B
> 
> This argument is looking more and more like a pissing contest and let us move on.


It's not a pissing contest. Just a few days ago a guy working from CAC stated that they were keeping the J-10A line open for Pakistan and PLAN. Also, the fact that J-10B will not enter service until early next year was told. Now you state that Pakistan was never interested in the A model. Well, you are free to believe what you will, but at the end of the day I trust the CAC source more.


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## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> Imran Khan----"erectable pod"----what kind of pod is that!


Planes dont have this pod ryt?


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## SBD-3

S10 said:


> It's not a pissing contest. Just a few days ago a guy working from CAC stated that they were keeping the J-10A line open for Pakistan and PLAN. Also, the fact that J-10B will not enter service until early next year was told. Now you state that Pakistan was never interested in the A model. Well, you are free to believe what you will, but at the end of the day I trust the CAC source more.


The current J-10B with WS-10A will take recertification, while the earlier ones with AL-31F (which will most likely be installed in PAF order) may have completed its testing and certification. 1031 flew two years ago, given it has been to CFTE, it would have completed its wepaons and flight testing, the one with WS-10A will take its time for flight testing.


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## Luftwaffe

MastanKhan said:


> Imran Khan----"erectable pod"----what kind of pod is that!


 
Think he meant temporary Installed removable Pod mission specific. 

Imran Khan does it use latex


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## MZUBAIR

Its cleared, Pakistan getting J10B, may be with russian engines.

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## Xracer

yes..........................


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## Arsalan

Areesh said:


> Hahahahaha. I was thinking the same. At least J10b won't like this pod.


 


hasnain0099 said:


> Planes dont have this pod ryt?


 
well i dont think it was that difficult to understand! 

i am sure that *Sir Imran Khan* meant to say Retractable Probe for refueling. the J-10B have a fixed probe being shown in the subjected picture (pointed out be Sir Pshamim) and it is clearly visible. *am i right sir?*
If you can check the picture that was being discussed, it will be quite clear and no one can mistake it as a POD (as miss typed by Imran Khan) because, that plane do not carried a POD in that pic!

so lets be a bit open and understand what other are saying.
i hope you take it positively!

regards!

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## Manticore

j10 evolution

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca-418.html#post1957879

ive posted my video some pages back








Modern nske sthacie lietadl


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well i dont think it was that difficult to understand!
> 
> i am sure that *Sir Imran Khan* meant to say Retractable Probe for refueling. the J-10B have a fixed probe being shown in the subjected picture (pointed out be Sir Pshamim) and it is clearly visible. *am i right sir?*
> If you can check the picture that was being discussed, it will be quite clear and no one can mistake it as a POD (as miss typed by Imran Khan) because, that plane do not carried a POD in that pic!
> 
> so lets be a bit open and understand what other are saying.
> i hope you take it positively!
> 
> regards!


 
i was just joking yaar....i think you didnt get the wit

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## graphican

Look at air-intakes in the image above. Look like they are resembling to F-16 more than the earlier versions we saw.


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## S10

graphican said:


> Look at air-intakes in the image above. Look like they are resembling to F-16 more than the earlier versions we saw.


The program was originally going to utilize American engines, since relationship with United States was good during the 1980's. The inlet had to be changed to accomodate AL-31FN.


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## Imran Khan

MastanKhan said:


> Imran Khan----"erectable pod"----what kind of pod is that!


 
ye sara kasoor webby ka hai mujhy kehta hai spellchecker use kero ab dekho main ne Retractable Refuling pod likha us ne ye bana diya .or main tha kitchen main main ne bhi note nhi kiya.

wesy yahaan mery hamdard shagird bhut sary hai beizati kerny waly


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## Imran Khan

wesy main aysi baat ker sakta hoon yaar ? main aik muaziz shareef miskeen innocent admi hoon bhi

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## abaseen99




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## Areesh

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well i dont think it was that difficult to understand!
> 
> i am sure that *Sir Imran Khan* meant to say Retractable Probe for refueling. the J-10B have a fixed probe being shown in the subjected picture (pointed out be Sir Pshamim) and it is clearly visible. *am i right sir?*
> If you can check the picture that was being discussed, it will be quite clear and no one can mistake it as a POD (as miss typed by Imran Khan) because, that plane do not carried a POD in that pic!
> 
> so lets be a bit open and understand what other are saying.
> i hope you take it positively!
> 
> regards!


 
It was just a joke Bhai. I know what he was trying to say.

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## Imran Khan

Areesh said:


> It was just a joke Bhai. I know what he was trying to say.


 
ok ok bus na remaining 30 minutes yaar its not the time for .......... lolz


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> i was just joking yaar....i think you didnt get the wit





> It was just a joke Bhai. I know what he was trying to say.


* Origianlly posted* by *Areesh*

ok, that is fine!
i must have miss understood! i though you making fun a very respectable figure on this forum. sorry for the misunderstanding!

coming back to the point, there were rumors about the retractable probes to be fitted with J-10 but the B version in the picture have the fixed probe. i wonder if these will be replaced later or what!

regards!


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## Manticore

In the August 2011 issue of the magazine Kanwa, the writer published an article on his meeting with two Russian radar experts - the Chief Engineer Dr. NIIP uri PERY and Chief Engineer Yuri Guskov Phazotron.

They believe that according to recent photos of J-10B , the radar images is a PESA, and J-10B at the radar is at least the same level as Su-30MKI with BARS his radar. 







i know this radar is a prototype and russians will downplay it... however note , even after downplaying it , they are comparing it to the mki's radar..

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## Beast

Haha... Kansa author can only asked Russian. This Russian know nuts abt Chinese stuff. That picture of pesa on j-10b is an old prototype. Just becos it's the only photo leaked out with radome open and they claimed it's pesa.

Nanjing institute responsible for radar already claimed it's aesa. Does the institute operate by Russian? Lol.

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## Beast

Haha... Kansa author can only asked Russian. This Russian know nuts abt Chinese stuff. That picture of pesa on j-10b is an old prototype. Just becos it's the only photo leaked out with radome open and they claimed it's pesa.

Nanjing institute responsible for radar already claimed it's aesa. Does the institute operate by Russian? Lol.


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## pshamim

Relations between Pakistan and USA are deteriorating by the day and have become pretty nasty. Super Power US has started to engage in Tit for Tat policy against USA. After Pakistan put restrictions on US national.s free movement, US threatened the same and Pakistan caved in today and lifted the restriction.

Now comes the unbelievable part. After China made an offer to sell J-10B to Pakistan, Hillary Clinton mad a pitch to India and offered to sell F-35 for $65 million a copy to India-well below the actual price. I really do not know if that is a Gidar Bhapki since F-35 are supposed to be sold to the partners first. Exception is as usual Israel, unless US sells out of its stock. Wonder if the partners have any veto power.

Also this may be a carrot which may push away the Indians from Europeans and reposition Lockheed martin.



*Clinton&#8217;s &#8216;Unbelievable&#8217; Pitch to India*

Posted: August 2, 2011 | Author: blondefletch | Filed under: Breaking News | Tags: Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, F-35, Hillary Rodham Clinton, India, Indian Air Force, JSF, New Delhi, Procurement, United States, United States Secretary of State | 

An unprecedented step by the US Secretary of State Hilary Clinton has been made in India following her trip to New Delhi last week, a report from Eurasia.net states. She has stated the US&#8217; willingness to offer the state-of-the-art F-35 warplanes to India at the bargain price of $65 Million each.

Compare this to the $85 Million an Dassault Rafale would cost, or the $125 Million that a Eurofighter Typhoon was offered at, its clear to see how big a step this is. Analysts will obviously suggest that the US are trying to establish a stronger level of military sales in the area, but why is yet to be seen. The recent failure by American companies to procure a $10.4 Billion contract for the Indian Air Force could be partially to blame, but also the transition of F-35 to a production model of late means that it has only just become eligible for the IAF proposal that was originally laid out. Not to mention the offer yesterday China made to Pakistan to give an entire squadron of brand new J-10B&#8217;s recently put into production. Maybe this is a fore planned counter move by the US? Either way, expect more on this as the proposal develops.

http://aerofutures.wordpress.com/201...itch-to-india

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## fatman17

Date Posted: 02-Aug-2011 

*Chengdu J-10 fighters may have been tested with Taihang engine*

Ted Parsons JDW Correspondent - Washington, DC.



Recently surfaced images indicate that the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) J-10 fighter has passed a significant milestone in being tested with an indigenous Chinese turbofan. The engine in question is most probably a version of the WS-10A Taihang. 

The nearly 200 J-10A fighters manufactured to date have been powered by the 12,745 kg (28,100 lb) thrust Russian Saturn AL-31FN, which features a relocated engine gearbox to fit the J-10A airframe. A USD500 million order in early July for 123 Al-31FNs brought Chengdu's total order for the powerplants to 399. 

Unconfirmed reports emerged from the November 2010 Zhuhai Airshow that a J-10 had been tested with a version of the WS-10 turbofan. However, images taken in late July at the CAC test field show a prototype J-10B fighter powered by a version of the WS-10A with a distinctly shorter tailpipe. Chinese reports indicate the J-10B, which first emerged in early 2009, could enter full production later this year. Recent construction at CAC has resulted in an expansion of production facilities to accommodate future J-20 fifth-generation fighter production and perhaps expanded production of the J-10. The J-10B also features a redesigned engine inlet, plus a new active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, new electronic warfare systems and an infrared tracking system. 

*Although it is not yet certain that the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) will adopt the WS-10A powered J-10B, this fighter would not face the foreign sales restrictions of the Al-31FN powered J-10A and would offer the PLAAF a means for accelerating J-10 production*. However, the source for Chengdu's Taihang engines is less clear, as this engine currently produced by the Shenyang Liming Engine Company, is thought to be dedicated to producing the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation's J-11B and J-15 twin engine fighters. However, recent Chinese reports indicate that the No 430 Factory of the X'ian Aeroengine Company and the No 460 Factory of the Guizhou Liyang Machinery Company, a longstanding CAC partner, may also be involved in partial or complete Taihang production. An expansion of WS-10 production as well as its adoption for the J-10 would indicate a higher Chinese confidence in this engine than has been credited by recent Western assessments.


_i have been stating all along on this forum that China could not sell the J-10A to Pakistan because of the re-export restrictions placed on its Russian engine. now that significant progress seems to have been made with the chinese engine, a batch of J-10B is being offered for T&E to the PAF before large numbers are inducted in its inventory_.

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## fatman17

pshamim said:


> Relations between Pakistan and USA are deteriorating by the day and have become pretty nasty. Super Power US has started to engage in Tit for Tat policy against USA. After Pakistan put restrictions on US national.s free movement, US threatened the same and Pakistan caved in today and lifted the restriction.
> 
> Now comes the unbelievable part. After China made an offer to sell J-10B to Pakistan, Hillary Clinton mad a pitch to India and offered to sell F-35 for $65 million a copy to India-well below the actual price. I really do not know if that is a Gidar Bhapki since F-35 are supposed to be sold to the partners first. Exception is as usual Israel, unless US sells out of its stock. Wonder if the partners have any veto power.
> 
> Also this may be a carrot which may push away the Indians from Europeans and reposition Lockheed martin.
> 
> 
> 
> *Clinton&#8217;s &#8216;Unbelievable&#8217; Pitch to India*
> 
> Posted: August 2, 2011 | Author: blondefletch | Filed under: Breaking News | Tags: Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, F-35, Hillary Rodham Clinton, India, Indian Air Force, JSF, New Delhi, Procurement, United States, United States Secretary of State |
> 
> An unprecedented step by the US Secretary of State Hilary Clinton has been made in India following her trip to New Delhi last week, a report from Eurasia.net states. She has stated the US&#8217; willingness to offer the state-of-the-art F-35 warplanes to India at the bargain price of $65 Million each.
> 
> Compare this to the $85 Million an Dassault Rafale would cost, or the $125 Million that a Eurofighter Typhoon was offered at, its clear to see how big a step this is. Analysts will obviously suggest that the US are trying to establish a stronger level of military sales in the area, but why is yet to be seen. The recent failure by American companies to procure a $10.4 Billion contract for the Indian Air Force could be partially to blame, but also the transition of F-35 to a production model of late means that it has only just become eligible for the IAF proposal that was originally laid out. Not to mention the offer yesterday China made to Pakistan to give an entire squadron of brand new J-10B&#8217;s recently put into production. Maybe this is a fore planned counter move by the US? Either way, expect more on this as the proposal develops.
> 
> http://aerofutures.wordpress.com/201...itch-to-india



$65m for F-35 seems un-believable!!!. its less than a F-16C/D Blk 60.

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## Thorough Pro

Finally the desease is catching.....................................



pshamim said:


> Relations between Pakistan and USA are deteriorating by the day and have become pretty nasty. Super Power US has started to engage in Tit for Tat policy against USA. After Pakistan put restrictions on US national.s free movement, US threatened the same and Pakistan caved in today and lifted the restriction.
> 
> Now comes the unbelievable part. After China made an offer to sell J-10B to Pakistan, Hillary Clinton mad a pitch to India and offered to sell F-35 for $65 million a copy to India-well below the actual price. I really do not know if that is a Gidar Bhapki since F-35 are supposed to be sold to the partners first. Exception is as usual Israel, unless US sells out of its stock. Wonder if the partners have any veto power.
> 
> Also this may be a carrot which may push away the Indians from Europeans and reposition Lockheed martin.
> 
> 
> 
> *Clinton&#8217;s &#8216;Unbelievable&#8217; Pitch to India*
> 
> Posted: August 2, 2011 | Author: blondefletch | Filed under: Breaking News | Tags: Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, F-35, Hillary Rodham Clinton, India, Indian Air Force, JSF, New Delhi, Procurement, United States, United States Secretary of State |
> 
> An unprecedented step by the US Secretary of State Hilary Clinton has been made in India following her trip to New Delhi last week, a report from Eurasia.net states. She has stated the US&#8217; willingness to offer the state-of-the-art F-35 warplanes to India at the bargain price of $65 Million each.
> 
> Compare this to the $85 Million an Dassault Rafale would cost, or the $125 Million that a Eurofighter Typhoon was offered at, its clear to see how big a step this is. Analysts will obviously suggest that the US are trying to establish a stronger level of military sales in the area, but why is yet to be seen. The recent failure by American companies to procure a $10.4 Billion contract for the Indian Air Force could be partially to blame, but also the transition of F-35 to a production model of late means that it has only just become eligible for the IAF proposal that was originally laid out. Not to mention the offer yesterday China made to Pakistan to give an entire squadron of brand new J-10B&#8217;s recently put into production. Maybe this is a fore planned counter move by the US? Either way, expect more on this as the proposal develops.
> 
> http://aerofutures.wordpress.com/201...itch-to-india


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Another screw up of PAF---pak def minister and pakistani fans on this forum and other forums as well-----when you get something ---- don't go about bragging what you are getting and what you are going to do with it---before actually getting it in your possession.

These stupid idiots go to china----and then yell at the top of their lungs what they are going to buy---which changes the balance of power.

With this news---the game has been taken to a new pleateau----pakistanis will never learn---possibly they don't have the capacity to learn-----I mean to say----come ask yourself----who could do blunders like that over and over----again and again---fall on their faces all the time-----.

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## houshanghai

The Kanwa magazine is never a reliable source about chinese military .The editor-in-chief of Kanwa named Andrei Pinkov ,who is a chinese and have a japenese wife.then he launched out on a military magazine in Canada. His predictions are always wrong about Chinese military and all chinese military fans like playing jokes on Pinkov.

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## pshamim

I think that nothing will come out of it. This may very well be a package deal offered and F-35 is only one part of it. God knows what the other things are in the package but they may come with a price which India may not be willing to pay.

Then another party to this deal will be DOD. They must agree with the State department for the deal to go through even though India may go for the bait. There have been ocassions before when DOD has refused to go along State department's grand policies and killing its grandstanding proposals in the process.


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## pshamim

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Another screw up of PAF---pak def minister and pakistani fans on this forum and other forums as well-----when you get something ---- don't go about bragging what you are getting and what you are going to do with it---before actually getting it in your possession.
> 
> These stupid idiots go to china----and then yell at the top of their lungs what they are going to buy---which changes the balance of power.
> With this news---the game has been taken to a new pleateau----pakistanis will never learn---possibly they don't have the capacity to learn-----I mean to say----come ask yourself----who could do blunders like that over and over----again and again---fall on their faces all the time-----.
> 
> My children----there is very little hope left for you----.


 
Khan Saheb,
In this instance, the statement was made by senior Chinese military leaders and not the Pakistanis.

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## mymeaningislion

so bandar k hath churi dene ka irada ha miss haliry ka

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## showstopper

I don't buy the balance of power argument. Providing India with F-35s to go along with the PAK-FA, Su-30 and Rafale/Typhoon doesn't sound like balance to me. 

a) US is hell-bent on using India as a counterweight to China, Pakistan's concerns be damned
or
b) US desperately needs to increase the orders for the F-35 in order to control the costs.

There is, of course, the strong possibility that this rumour is a pile of rubbish. That's what I'm hoping, anyway.


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## pshamim

And if you read closely, it is for the basic unit. I am sure it will not fly in India. I agree this could be rubbish though reported widely by news outlets.


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## showstopper

Agreed. The most suspicious detail is that $65 million per unit price tag. The American military said that the aircraft to be procured in 2012 will cost more than 200 million dollars each. And Hillary Clinton just walks in and offers it to India at a third of the price? 

To the moderators, my apologies for contributing to thread derailment. Back to the FC-20 we go.


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## ANG

Hi, Hillary might have offered the F-35, but I doubt India would take the bait. India seems to be fully commited to buying over 250+ PAK-FA stealth fighters from Russia, and plans to build these planes in house. 

Moreover, India seems to have more "bone in its back" and has a more independent foreign policy than Pakistan. Meaning, I doubt they would buy F-35s filled with bugs and kill switches and also limited by the amount of technology transfer. The US never gives out source code, whereas the Europeans and Russian do.

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## ziaulislam

well i thought india should have become a partner in f-35 a level 2 or 3 ..
the fly away cost for f-35 would be around 110-120 million for a project partner but f-35 is far superior than any existing plateforms (other than ofcourse f-22 and pakfa)


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## Mani2020

*Detail differences of J10-B from original J-10A*

The J-10B is a modified variant of the J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, with modifications in airframe and avionics. Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) of AVIC began to develop a follow-on variant of its J-10 fighter around 2004/05. A J-10B prototype reportedly made its maiden flight in December 2008. Photos of the aircraft began to emerge on the Chinese Internet in March 2009. Once commissioned, the J-10B is likely going to become the standard for later J-10 productions.

*Rampless Inlet*
The J-10B features a chin-mounted diffuser supersonic inlet (DSI) air inlet. The traditional rectangle-shape air inlet on the J-10 requires a large moveable inlet ramp to generate a rearward leaning oblique shock wave to aid the inlet compression process. The ramp sits at an acute angle to deflect the intake air stream from the longitudinal direction. The air inlets comprises many moving parts, which increases the aircraft&#8217;s weight and radar reflections.

The newly designed rampless inlet, first tested on the FC-1/JF-17 fighter design by Chengdu, employs a one-piece bump at the top of the inlet replacing the movable ramp. This eliminates all moving parts on the inlet, lightening the overall weight and reducing the aircraft&#8217;s radar signature.

*Electro-Optic Targeting System*
The J-10B has been added with an electronic-optic targeting system (EOTS) commonly found on all fourth-generation Russian fighter aircraft such as Su-27 and MiG-29. Placed forward of the cockpit canopy to the right, the system comprises an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor and a laser rangefinder, which can detect enemy targets passively without requiring to turn on the fire-control radar, thus reducing the chance of the aircraft being detected. The EOTS of the J-10B is likely based on a Russian design.

*Tailfin ECM Pod*
The upper edge of J-10B&#8217;s tailfin is curved, in contrast to the straight-edged tailfin of the J-10. A large fairing is added to the tip of the tailfin to accommodate electronic warfare and countermeasures (EW/ECM) equipment.

*ECM Antenna Array*
The J-10B has four black antenna arrays attached externally to the fuselage, a larger one on either side of the cockpit and a smaller one on either side of the rear fuselage near the engine nozzle. The specific purpose of these antennas is unknown but they are thought to be for electronic countermeasures purpose.


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## fatman17

*J-10B Vigorous Dragon * - update

The latest 1035 prototype of the J-10B was photographed at CAC airfield in July 2011, revealing the indigenous WS-10A turbofan engine. This much improved variant (1031 prototype) made its maiden flight on December 23, 2008, powered by a Russian AL-31FN engine. The improvements include a DSI/bump engine inlet which not only cuts weight but also reduces RCS, after a similar design was first tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. The aircraft also features a J-11B style IRST/LR and a wide-angle holographic HUD. IRST enables passive detection of enemy aircraft, making J-10B more stealthy in combat. Its nose appears flatter too, similar to that of American F-16, and fire-control radar is thought to be an X-band AESA developed by the 14th Institute, the first of such type ever being developed for a Chinese fighter aircraft, giving J-10B a stronger multi-target engagement and ECCM capability. Two large pods housing testing equipments are attached under the wings. The tip of vertical tailfin was redesigned as well, featuring a large fairing containing communication and ECM antennas, which resembles that of French Mirage 2000. A rear facing MAWS sensor can be seen underneath the parachute boom. A similar system was tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. RAM coating is also expected in certain areas such as engine inlet and wing leading edges to reduce RCS. The aircraft may be fitted with CFTs in the future to further extend its range. All these improvements suggest that J-10B is equipped with a new generation of integrated electronic system, ranging from radar to EW system. Its mission may be changed from air-superiority to multi-purpose, such as AG or EW. In addition, the aircraft is expected to be powered eventually by a WS-10A turbofan. Overall J-10B is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60. The 03 prototype first flew in August 2009, with the pitot tube removed from the nose tip. Both 1031 & 1034 prototypes are currently being tested at CFTE. J-10B is very liekly to serve as a testbed for various advanced technologies adopted by the 4th generation J-20 (see below) currently under development at CAC thus may not enter the servive in large quantity with PLAAF. The production of J-10B is expected to imminent (07 batch?). 

- Last Updated 8/2/11


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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> *Detail differences of J10-B from original J-10A*
> 
> The J-10B is a modified variant of the J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, with modifications in airframe and avionics. Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) of AVIC began to develop a follow-on variant of its J-10 fighter around 2004/05. A J-10B prototype reportedly made its maiden flight in December 2008. Photos of the aircraft began to emerge on the Chinese Internet in March 2009. Once commissioned, the J-10B is likely going to become the standard for later J-10 productions.
> 
> *Rampless Inlet*
> The J-10B features a chin-mounted diffuser supersonic inlet (DSI) air inlet. The traditional rectangle-shape air inlet on the J-10 requires a large moveable inlet ramp to generate a rearward leaning oblique shock wave to aid the inlet compression process. The ramp sits at an acute angle to deflect the intake air stream from the longitudinal direction. The air inlets comprises many moving parts, which increases the aircraft&#8217;s weight and radar reflections.
> 
> The newly designed rampless inlet, first tested on the FC-1/JF-17 fighter design by Chengdu, employs a one-piece bump at the top of the inlet replacing the movable ramp. This eliminates all moving parts on the inlet, lightening the overall weight and reducing the aircraft&#8217;s radar signature.
> 
> *Electro-Optic Targeting System*
> The J-10B has been added with an electronic-optic targeting system (EOTS) commonly found on all fourth-generation Russian fighter aircraft such as Su-27 and MiG-29. Placed forward of the cockpit canopy to the right, the system comprises an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor and a laser rangefinder, which can detect enemy targets passively without requiring to turn on the fire-control radar, thus reducing the chance of the aircraft being detected. The EOTS of the J-10B is likely based on a Russian design.
> 
> *Tailfin ECM Pod*
> The upper edge of J-10B&#8217;s tailfin is curved, in contrast to the straight-edged tailfin of the J-10. A large fairing is added to the tip of the tailfin to accommodate electronic warfare and countermeasures (EW/ECM) equipment.
> 
> *ECM Antenna Array*
> The J-10B has four black antenna arrays attached externally to the fuselage, a larger one on either side of the cockpit and a smaller one on either side of the rear fuselage near the engine nozzle. The specific purpose of these antennas is unknown but they are thought to be for electronic countermeasures purpose.


 
Even J-10A has JFT like ECM housing on its tail, the difference should be what else J-10B houses in its ECM in addition to J-10A


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## Manticore

has the canard position change on latest J-10B


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## SBD-3

ANTIBODY said:


> has the canard position change on latest J-10B


Nop, apparently there is no change in the positioning of Canards, the AS verson's canards look different but they are due to longer canopy, the apparent differences are 1) canopy is gold plated 2) A bit larger than J-10A

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## MastanKhan

pshamim said:


> Khan Saheb,
> In this instance, the statement was made by senior Chinese military leaders and not the Pakistanis.


 
pshamim,

Sir, pakistan must never get into a pi-ssing match with the u s when it comes to weapons purchase from other sources or even the u s---there is no need for it---it does not make sense for the defence minister of pakistan stating openly at a critical moment that we will give the gwadar port to china---.

First of all---it is years and years away----secondly---it was possibly them who gave it to singapore against all good judgement----even if the media is screaming their heads off---the state needs to keep its mouth shut.

With all this hoopla created around this weapons purchase----we have given the enemy enough time to prepare to make a political retaliation on the world forum and to consider other venues as well---.

The very thing about procuring weapons systems is secrecy---and if that is not possible then denial---and even if that is not possible then silence---. In this day and age of web----it is not possible to keep a lid on the news---but the state must not participate in the manner that it did.

This was done intentionally by the state operatives to get the attention of the pakistani public away from OBL fiasco----and this has also backfired----. The proper thing to have been done was to get on the TV and talk back to the public what the americans did not do for the last 9 years.


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## MastanKhan

mymeaningislion said:


> so bandar k hath churi dene ka irada ha miss haliry ka


 
Sir,

This is not the place to make such comments----

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## Manticore

today ,j10b is coming out again.

credits houshangahi

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## ejaz007

*China Officially Offers Pakistan J-10 Variant*
By USMAN ANSARI 
Published: 3 Aug 2011 10:22 

ISLAMABAD - China for the first time officially offered Pakistan a variant of its most advanced frontline fighter, the Chengdu J-10 Vigorous Dragon/F-10 Vanguard.

Citing defense sources, the offer was reported in the Urdu press here over the weekend. The offer was made during the recent visit to China by Lt. Gen. Waheed Arshad, the Pakistani Army chief of General Staff.

Official Pakistani interest in the fighter dates back to February 2006, when then-Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf toured the J-10 production facilities on a trip to China. Pakistani government approval for the purchase of 36 FC-20s, a Pakistani-specific variant, was given in April 2006. Service entry was slated for the middle of the decade.

Precise details of the deal are not yet known. However, Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, said "the initial deal will be for at least two squadrons [at least 32 aircraft] and will be financed by China via a soft, long-term loan."

Analyst Kaiser Tufail said the J-10's operational autonomy would be far greater than that provided by the U.S.-built F-16C. 

"It has to be remembered that India refused to consider the F-16C/D and F-18E/F, as they wanted a freer hand in operability aspects as well as technology transfer, which the U.S. was unwilling to provide," Tufail said.

With the J-10, Pakistan would "be able to operate it in an environment not constrained by security restrictions," and could base the aircraft wherever desired, Tufail said. He also said the lack of technology-transfer restrictions from the original equipment manufacturer is a factor.

"The J-10 will provide F-16-class capabilities for Pakistan but without the cost and political encumbrances of U.S.-sourced aircraft," Carlo Kopp of the Air Power Australia think tank said. 

"What a J-10 would provide is quantity over any U.S.- or EU-sourced product," Kopp said, though he is still uncertain whether China will supply "pre-loved J-10Aor new-build J-10A or J-10B airframes."

Shabbir said the broader Sino-Pakistani combat aircraft relationship has eroded Western influence over Pakistan, though he remains concerned about the implications Pakistan's fragile economy has for its defense capabilities.

"The availability of J-10 and JF-17 from the Chinese means that Pakistan is now not that reliant on the U.S. and Europe for its aircraft requirements, and this of course will erode U.S influence over Pakistan in the long term," he said.

The Pakistani Air Force is the largest operator of U.S supplied weapons in South Asia and therefore most vulnerable to sanctions. 

China Officially Offers Pakistan J-10 Variant - Defense News

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## ziaulislam

is the engine same in j-10b and j-10a
if yes..whats really capablities difference between them..other than minor changes..

what i really mean from this point is that if a f-16a/b can be upgraded to f-16c/d standarads (when c/d has a greater wing area and better engine)..why are our members so much upset with an *UPGRADED* j-10 a

i realy think that even if we get *j-10a upgraded*, it will be near j-10b capabilities


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## sohail.ishaque

Whatever but this had to happen.. and i believe its more to do with the American making India fall to their military equipments.. and to keep them under their strong influence...


pshamim said:


> Khan Saheb,
> In this instance, the statement was made by senior Chinese military leaders and not the Pakistanis.


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## alibaz

MastanKhan said:


> Imran Khan----"erectable pod"----what kind of pod is that!

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## abaseen99

Improved F-10B subversive China shocked the world (2011-08-03 15:43:49)Reproduced
Tags: Military	
April 2009, J-10B for shipping. The first slave to the belly has a very significant change, the whole forming, natural, let the world admire the wisdom and fly into the design level. F-10B disruptive progress for Russia's Sukhoi experts were shocked that the F-10A and F-10B is essentially not a machine. 

They pointed out that J-10B is not small change, but including appearance, including a huge improvement. See? J-10A inlet above a few "small stick" has gone. J-10B's appearance is very beautiful, but more important is performance, YST personally think that the J-10B's performance over the United States the latest model of F-16 ** <unfortunately is somewhat less payload and fire some> are three generations of machine in the crowd, some into the fourth generation machine (the body with a plasma stealth device transducers).

A. Inlet

Inlet design is critical for high-performance aircraft, because aircraft at different altitudes, flight speed and attitude to need a different feed rate for combustion, the engine must have a close cooperation in order to get the best combustion efficiency, which directly affect aircraft power, this is not a simple matter, they might even cause the engine air parking, which is very dangerous, high-altitude start the engine with a high degree of risk, so many pilots killed.

J-10B uses the most advanced DSI intake (also known as "clam" inlet), see Fig. Readers in the J-10B of the inlet at the top you can clearly see a bulge, that is, "clam" inlet design. The bulge shape is adjustable to control air imports.

DSI intake has two advantages:

a. Shielding the engine blades, greatly reduces the radar cross section and radar features;

b. Save the inlet and the body of septa, J-10B for DSI intake weight one hundred and eighty kilograms.

DSI intake is the first invention of the United States, but only on the F-35 and is not adjustable. China immediately follow up and it carried forward into adjustable "clam" inlet to improve the efficiency of supersonic flight. Chengdu Aircraft Design has the inlet to the successful application of this advanced in J-10, FC-1 ("Fierce Dragon") and J-20, than its inventor, Lockheed Martin, there are more applications experience.

B. Active Phased Array Radar (Active Electronically Steered Array, called AESA)

"Active Phased Array Radar" is generally defined as the standard fourth-generation fighter, J-10B is equipped, so J-20 will be equipped with active phased array radar.

Today confirmed that J-10B is equipped with Chinese-made phased-array radar, apparently plans to mainland China this advanced electronic products in the J-10B first experiment.

China's neighboring countries have begun or will soon switched phased array radar, such as the French "Rafale", Europe's "Typhoon", Russia's Su-35S, India's Sukhoi-30MKI, and even South Korea's F-15K are U.S. plan to dress the active phased array radar, the Japanese early in 2000, equipped with their own R & D active phased array radar, the 3.5 generation (Western Standard) or after four generations (Russian standard) fighter threat to China, both J-11B or J-10A electronic systems are under pressure, so the J-10B is equipped with Chinese-made active phased array radar is a very natural thing.

Phased array radar is a very important electronic equipment, YST in the next one at the forums.

C. Supersonic cruise

About a year ago reported that YST have seen J-10 supersonic cruise can do short (like 15 minutes), YST guess may be experimenting with new research and development of turbofan-10II (WS-10B) to achieve.

But in China the focus of the target aircraft engines should be "Taihang", currently in production with a small amount of test equipment situation. Recently "Taihang" engine in a growing number of domestic J-11B fighters, and even special emphasis will be installed in the future on the J-15 aircraft carrier, "Taihang" engine reliability will be improved step by step.

J-10B's size and empty weight is only 8.6 tons, smaller than the F-16 **, body light, if equipped with the "Taihang" engine is certainly capable of supersonic cruise for a long time.

D. Invisible

J-10B in the shape significant changes in online leak of the news is an order of magnitude lower RCS. In fact, J-10A when the design has stealth considerations (such as BWB), RCS will not exceed 3m2. If the J-10B to reduce the RCS of an order of magnitude, then it the RCS should be in 0. 3m2 so. In accordance with the definition of YST, RCS is less than 1 is called stealth fighter aircraft, so J-10B could be included in a low-end of the stealth fighter.

E. J-10B will be a low-end machine of the Five Dynasties

November 8, 2009, deputy commander of the Chinese Air Force proud of what China Central Television in an interview revealed that China is "intense" to develop fourth-generation fighters <J-10B,J-20>, "may soon have to make its maiden flight, the first fly and quickly test flight, and soon the troops. According to the present to determine the status of 2011 there may be other stealth fighters will appear.

This is the People's Liberation Army generals at that time heavyweight state-owned radio conversation released by the natural attention, China's fourth-generation fighters immediately aroused heated discussions, the Asia-Pacific balance of power will be completely broken and so, the United Kingdom [Jane's Defence Weekly] According to the current J -20 model even speculated that China's new generation of stealth fighter and combat performance of the local fire performance may surpass the U.S. F-22 and Russian Su-35, T-50.

Mainland China's weapons development has been low-key acting, not like the Chinese military has always lied, trying to avoid the "China threat theory" appears. So a few days out of the Air Force responsible official of the fire, explaining that China is a so-called fourth-generation fighter F-10 an improved type. Zhefan fire was caused by a lot of the Continental Army, then the disappointment of fans.

Today it seems the above two statements are right, how proud of deputy commander, said the J-20, and later the Air Force official said the J-10B.

Mainland China's J-10 as the U.S. F-16, mass production of J-10 is different for each batch, continuous change and evolution of performance, has now revealed the signs of J-10B will meet the "4S" at least become a four-generation low-end machine (the Russian definition of the Five Dynasties machine).

YST very much agree with "Chengdu Aircraft Company," this practice, not the pursuit of extreme performance, or partially beyond the requirements of balanced development, and always able to control the price range of mass production, outside the aircraft to be able to eliminate this is the right way.

Pursuit of a particular aircraft for the ultimate in performance is very unwise, for example, Yu F-22 stealth comprehensive combat capability in the desperate pursuit, the cost scary. Aircraft operations are not singled out but one of the coordinated multi-combat. If the U.S. really fighting in the air early warning aircraft, satellites and various missiles and long-range ground-based radars to support the complex environment of the expensive F-22A J-10B on the cheap may not be an advantage, depending on both tactical and high-angle the use of technology <roar like the U.S. F-18G aircraft electrical power of filial piety by F-22 combat aircraft radar interference, the approaching F-22, re-use infrared heat-seeking missiles to shoot down F-22>. J-20 to face the situation, F-22A's advantage is even more slim. http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4afeb1160102drk0.html?tj=1


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## Manticore

hasnain0099 said:


> Nop, apparently there is no change in the positioning of Canards, the AS verson's canards look different but they are due to longer canopy, the apparent differences are 1) canopy is gold plated 2) A bit larger than J-10A


 i was guessing correctly , however the link of the picture i had posted previously , is dead so i will post houshangai's version of pictures


there are small changes of canard between j10b pt 01 and j10b pt 05

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## abaseen99




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## Tehmasib

good news but no member gussing the date of delivery ......def min say in weeks.......clarify weeks mean 250 weeks or 9 weeks....


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## SBD-3

ANTIBODY said:


> i was guessing correctly , however the link of the picture i had posted previously , is dead so i will post houshangai's version of pictures
> 
> 
> there are small changes of canard between j10b pt 01 and j10b pt 05


 
Thats why i posted the pic from same angle, the difference in angles may lead to different conclusion


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## SBD-3

here is J-10BS Scheme from defence production journal


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## Xracer

Please Tell whats is This mark parts


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## Xracer

I saw same on F16 block50/52


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## epinephrine

these mark points r cfts.the dorsal spine n the cfts look like exactly those of f-16.nice to see advance tech is abt to enter paf without restrictions on its use.

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## krash

Xracer said:


> I saw same on F16 block50/52


 
These are conformal fuel tanks (CFT). They can be attached to the aircraft in a small amount of time to give it more range while minimizing performance loss.

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## Dil Pakistan

hasnain0099 said:


> here is J-10*BS* Scheme from defence production journal


 
J10*BS* - Is it a naval variant OR twin seater version ?


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## Zshu

krash said:


> These are conformal fuel tanks (CFT). They can be attached to the aircraft in a small amount of time to give it more range while minimizing performance loss.



Why dont we see it on current J-10As/B?


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## S-A-B-E-R->

Zshu said:


> Why dont we see it on current J-10As/B?


 
same reason we dont see them on F16 A/B the r not suppose to be there because the Air frame is not built for them


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## SBD-3

Dil Pakistan said:


> J10*BS* - Is it a naval variant OR twin seater version ?


looks like Twin seater Trainer and Attack version


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## SBD-3



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## [--Leo--]

abaseen99 said:


> C. Supersonic cruise
> 
> About a year ago reported that YST have seen J-10 supersonic cruise can do short (like 15 minutes), YST guess may be experimenting with new research and development of turbofan-10II (WS-10B) to achieve.
> 
> But in China the focus of the target aircraft engines should be "Taihang", currently in production with a small amount of test equipment situation. Recently "Taihang" engine in a growing number of domestic J-11B fighters, and even special emphasis will be installed in the future on the J-15 aircraft carrier, "Taihang" engine reliability will be improved step by step.
> 
> J-10B's size and empty weight is only 8.6 tons, smaller than the F-16 **, body light, if equipped with the "Taihang" engine is certainly capable of supersonic cruise for a long time.
> 
> D. Invisible
> 
> J-10B in the shape significant changes in online leak of the news is an order of magnitude lower RCS. In fact, J-10A when the design has stealth considerations (such as BWB), RCS will not exceed 3m2. If the J-10B to reduce the RCS of an order of magnitude, then it the RCS should be in 0. 3m2 so. In accordance with the definition of YST, RCS is less than 1 is called stealth fighter aircraft, so J-10B could be included in a low-end of the stealth fighter.


 
1: Does J-10b have stealthy nozzles and super sonic cruise 
2: RCS play very improtant in protecting From BVR so J-10b is semi stealth or Not stealth 
3: Is it comparble with typhoon and Rafle coz both have sonic cruise and semi stealth in avionics i know both are comparble and it is better than F-16/c/d but i think ahead from westrn tech 
so these are question i ask you can tell me answer and i need comfirm answer beacuse i have seen many different people gives difernet answer thanks it is my first question sorry for my bad english


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The plane looks horrible with the two things sticking out on sides , for fuel its better that they don`t add these hideous monstrosities to the plane the plane is very beautiful with out these


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## cloneman

Zshu said:


> Why dont we see it on current J-10As/B?


 
The CFT is something we expect to see on the future J-10C or J-10D multi role fighter.And a CFT will significantlly increase the weight of the J-10 to reduce its capability in dog fight.The current J-10B is an air superior fighter with 5th generation fighter level electronic warfairs,so no need the CFT to increse its range.


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## cloneman

hasnain0099 said:


> looks like Twin seater Trainer and Attack version


 
Currentlly there's no J-10BS,all the trainning work will be done on the J-10AS.


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## propakistani

China Gives J-10s Away

August 4, 2011: China recently announced that it would give Pakistan a squadron of J-10B fighter-bombers. That would be about twelve aircraft, which have been offered for export, for about half what the similar F-16 costs . The only buyer so far has been Pakistan, which ordered 36 J-10As earlier this year, with the goal of eventually getting 150. So the offer to Pakistan is mainly promotional (to get a foreign "customer" who can say what swell aircraft the J-10B is) and partly political (to show what a good ally China is, coming to the aid of Pakistan when the United States is threatening to cut the billions of dollars a year Pakistan has been receiving.)

However, the J-10 is the kind of gift most air forces would rather not receive. The J-10 is a strange, and dubious, war bird. Moreover, it was only two years ago that China publicly admitted that its new J-10s jet fighter existed. This despite the fact that the J-10 had entered service six years earlier, and there were plenty of J-10 photos on the Internet.

There are only about 200 J-10s are in service, most of them the original J-10As. they are being offered to export customers for about $42 million each. Currently, China is producing 2-3 J-10s a month.

The new and improved J-10B model carries improved electronics, including better radar warning, a laser range finder and targeting electronics. The new nose cone looks like the one on the F-16, indicating that the J-10B is to be fitted with an AESA (phased array) radar (which is more capable and more reliable than older types, but also more expensive.) The cockpit also has a larger and more detailed HUD (Head Up Display). The J-10B is apparently a much more effective aircraft than the J-10A.

But the J-10 already has a reputation as a maintenance nightmare, and that the Chinese are having a hard time keeping the aircraft operational in reasonable numbers. But the J-10 is the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. The aircraft is an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful.

Work on the J-10 began over twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that could compete with the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16. But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were problems, and it wasn't until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller problems. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia.

The J-10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J-10 has only one engine. Originally, the J-10 used a Russian AL-31FN engine, but China has been working for a decade to manufacture their own version of this, the WS10A. The WS10A is something of an acid test for them, as it is a powerful military engine, and a complex piece of work. Russia refused to license China to produce the AL-31FN, so the Chinese stole as much of the technology as they could and designed the WS10A. This engine has been tested, and officially approved for production, but apparently still has quality control and performance problems.

It's no accident that the J-10 resembles the F-16, because Israel apparently sold them technology for the Israeli Lavi jet fighter. Israel abandoned the Lavi project, because of the high cost and availability of cheaper alternatives (buying F-16s and F-15s from the United States.) But the Lavi was meant to be a super F-16, and incorporated a lot of design ideas from the F-16 (which the Israelis were very familiar with, as they used them, and had developed new components for them.)


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## propakistani

China&#8217;s J-10B fighter to Pak worries India

Published: Thursday, Aug 4, 2011, 15:26 IST
By Hemanth CS | Place: Bangalore | Agency: DNA 

The recent official offer of the Chinese to raise a squadron of its home-grown advanced multi-role, all-weather fighter aircraft J-10B to Pakistan has worried Indian defence experts. Pakistan will be the only other country apart from China to have this sophisticated fighter aircraft.

Air Commodore (Retd) Jasjit Singh, director, New Delhi-based Centre for Air Power Studies (CAPS), told DNA: &#8220;India now not only faces the possibility of a two-front war but has to also deal with a two-front military modernisation programme with China supplying its latest weaponry to Pakistan.&#8221;

He said India faces a 10-year window of vulnerability as the Indian Air Force&#8217;s (IAF&#8217;s) present squadron of 34 is way below the sanctioned strength of 39 squadrons. &#8220;It will take 10 years for the IAF to get back to its sanctioned strength of 39 squadrons. While Pakistan at present, with 24 squadrons, is raising its strength rapidly with China&#8217;s support,&#8221; said Singh, who is also the former director of Institute for Defence Studies and Analysis.

Former Vice Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal PK Barbora, however, said China&#8217;s offering Pakistan a squadron of the J-10s may not threaten India&#8217;s air superiority. &#8220;China does not have a great record of producing a world-class aircraft. All they do is reverse engineer and manufacture aircraft. Secondly, by raising just one squadron Pakistan may not benefit much,&#8221; he said.

However, Pakistani media reports indicate that it is looking at raising two squadrons of the fourth generation aircraft to counter India&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, which is still under development. Besides, according to US military and defence technology news website, Defense Update, the Chinese designed Joint Fighter (JF)-17 (commonly known as &#8216;Thunder&#8217 is already under production in Pakistan and is actively being promoted for export in the world market.

Despite his optimism, Air Marshal Barbora warned that the slow pace of India&#8217;s defence indigenisation (read LCA Tejas, in particular) is a cause for worry. &#8220;We will be adding 300 more Su-30 MKIs; getting 126 medium multi role combat aircraft; and upgrading the Mirage 2000s, Jaguars and the MiG-29s. The same cannot be said of some pathetic status of indigenous programmes like the Light Combat Aircraft, which has been delayed for years now,&#8221; he says.


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## propakistani

WoW! We are inducting J-10B just to counter LCA. I liked this part of the news

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## WAQAS119

propakistani said:


> However, *Pakistani media reports indicate that it is looking at raising two squadrons of the fourth generation aircraft to counter India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas*


 
Which Pakistani media report?

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## propakistani

ask Air Commodore (Retd) Jasjit Singh

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## ziaulislam

funny is that they are comparing china of 80s and early 90s with china of 210s i.e 20 years of incrdedible growth, development and access to russian tecn is ignored...
its like comparing america of 1920s to america of 1950s ..or germany of 1920s to germany of 1940s..

20-25 years of magnificent growth making it second largest and soon to be largest econ (by 2016) having the abliity to intiate a sucessful 5th gen aircraft is been down credited by saying it has a history of reverse engineering other aircfts ...its good for us if the enemy under estimates us..


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## Manticore



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## abaseen99

U.S.: China will sell Pakistan F-10B squadron equipped with bar one (1)
2011-08-02 09:51:54 People [ big in small&#12305;




J-10B fighter
According to the U.S. Defense-Update Web site on July 31 reported that China would provide Pakistan with a J-10B multi-purpose all-weather fighter squadron. Allegedly, this is the Department of the Army Chief of Staff in Pakistan went to NATO Wayi De Assad's visit a week finalized. If the transaction fulfillment, Pakistan, China will become the first column after the J-10B fighters mounted the country.
Reported that China and Pakistan have been related to J-10 fighters on the transactions related to years of negotiations, which Pakistan wants to import at least two fighter squadrons. It is believed that the transaction referred to in B-type aircraft performance comparable to the F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft.
U.S. media said, in addition to the J-10B fighter to reach an agreement outside the Wayi De Assad will visit to China, the Chinese defense relations between the two countries also pledged to rise to a new height during the visit, Wye de Sade visited the People's Liberation Army Deputy Chief of Staff and others.
U.S. media said that at present, Pakistan has also started production designed by the Chinese JF-17 fighter. Pakistan is currently building its territory JF-17 fighter, and actively promote this aircraft to the overseas market.
U.S. media said the latest J-10B fighter first flight in 2009. J-10 fighter with a significant difference is the installation of a radar signal can be reduced new aircraft radome. In addition to the radome, the redesign of the inlet in addition to increased gas flow, but also to improve the aircraft's stealth performance. J-10B fighter vertical tail, the cabin pylons are fitted with electronic equipment, which may include a variety of sensors and electronic warfare facilities. This type of aircraft is also fitted with a new type of optical sensor, is likely to be infrared search and track sensor (IRST). It is believed that, compared with the J-10A type, B-type aircraft can be equipped with more powerful engines and radar systems. (By China) ???10B ?1?--?_?


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## abaseen99




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## abaseen99




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## abaseen99



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## krash

Zshu said:


> Why dont we see it on current J-10As/B?


 
The J-10 initially, as was the case with the F-16 too, was not designed and hence *not plumbed* for CFTs i.e. the fuel lines to attach the CFTs to the aircraft do not exist. In the case of F-16s it was only later that the CFTs were designed and made to fit on the later blocks. As will now be the case with the J-10, provided the CFTs do actually make their way to the aircraft. Both the aircraft originally were designed for max performance output. But later on the CFTs were/will be introduced with the idea of increasing the range with minimal performance loss. They come as an 'attachment' so as to allow the user to enjoy the aircraft's max performance perimeters when extra fuel is not needed while at the same time allowing them extra range with minimal performance loss by attaching the CFTs in a few minutes.


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## Bratva

Sorry for Bit off topic but anyone who can help me finding Eagle Hannon Post in which he revealed J-10 will be here in December and he criticized PAF for going after more F-16's......?


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## Manticore

^its posted by me , roughly 25 pages back , give or take

07-21/22-2011

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## pshamim

While we all know that J-10B will have a rampless inlet and the new DSI, other changes are being talked about in Pakistan Air Force Circles. Change to DSI has resulted in reducing weight by 180 kg.

Others changes they have mentioned and I cannot confirm them besides the known DSI include, an 
Active Phased Array radar, 
Super Cruise (work started couple of years ago)-that means the engine may be WS-10B
RCS cut down ro 0.3m2 (But is that empty or with weapons. It cannot be that low with stores hanging to the body).
Appearance is also said to be different than a J-10A
Let us wait. If Pakistan is to receive this aircraft, these changes are no minor one.

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## Luftwaffe

pshamim said:


> Appearance is also said to be different than a J-10A


 
Sir, Could it be typhoonized, "canard delta wing" with extensive use of composites to reduce weight.


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## pshamim

Luftwaffe said:


> Sir, Could it be typhoonized, "canard delta wing" with extensive use of composites to reduce weight.


 
Bhai! I really do not know about the canards. But I know for fact that China acquired one of the leading composite manufactuting company. Having access to it, we may see it in future as this aircraft further evolves.

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## SBD-3

pshamim said:


> Bhai! I really do not know about the canards. But I know for fact that China acquired one of the leading composite manufactuting company. Having access to it, we may see it in future as this aircraft further evolves.


I was reading an article which mentioned sensor fusion as well, it was mentioned that the weight loss by composite was made up adding AESA and newer avionics, so for super cruise, may a limited one like Grippen but not a typical SC such as F-22A. The article also mentioned the possibility DAS and CIP. but given rumor that Chinese will test their EO DAS on J-20 (2003), I have doubts on that, yet top speed is increased to Mach 2+.


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## Manticore

credits houshangahi

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## SBD-3

Some people say, J-10 is a light machine, J-11 is a heavy-duty machine, J-10 J-11 air combat performance compared to, not a grade. The fact that this ruthless answer: in 2006 at the J-10 and SU-27SK confrontation, a J-10 face four SU-27SK, before the enemy discovered, before the enemy opened fire, made a 4:0 impressive record.
In fact, J-10 is not a light machine, its empty weight about 8.6 tonnes maximum take-off weight of about 19.2 tons, belonging to medium-sized machine; FC-1, JAS-39 is the light machine (J-10 the maximum speed 2.2MH, maximum static or limit close to 21,000 meters, the largest mobile service ceiling greater than 2.2 meters and maximum range of 3,500 km, the maximum combat radius of 1350 km, the maximum payload of 7 tons). If in 90 years, SU-27SK is a good fighter, but the 21st century, its avionics, weapons, has lagged behind. J-11 is the Chinese SU-27SK production version of its 00,01,02,03,04 total of five batches of about 100, increasing degree of localization. 00-02 is basically the original batch of SU-27SK; 03,04 gradually switched to homemade batch of radar and other avionics, some capable of firing homemade PL-12 missile, greatly increased combat capability. At present most of the old J-11 avionics have been upgraded, previously only semi-active launch of R-27, launched the initiative to upgrade the R-77, enhanced operational capability. But whether it is switched to the new avionics domestic J-11, or upgrade the old J-11, several times in recent years, the confrontation are not the J-10 opponent.
Heavy machine on the body side, large payload, range far, combat radius, stayed in the air for a long time; on the avionics side said, because more space, you can use a larger and more complex devices (such as larger diameter radar etc.), more powerful, more versatile. So the same level of technology, heavy-duty machine is stronger than the light air performance machine - but the premise is the same technology.
Pneumatic design three generations of such a development process: the energy of the 1970s era of the instantaneous motor &#8594; 80 &#8594; 90 years of motor stall maneuver (ultra-mobile). SU-27SK fighter maneuver is typical of the energy, the instantaneous motor theory of the birth of a typhoon gust, Gripen and other European 3.5 generation. Emphasis on air combat maneuvering instantaneous change in an instant the nose point, with large off-axis angle can launch missiles on the enemy attack. Instantaneous motor theory in our product is J-10. J-10 engine thrust is not as big push than not high, according to the energy motor theory, the stable set of SU-27SK is not dominant, but he has a lot more than the SU-27SK excellent instantaneous plate (31 °), often given priority in fighting locked SU-27SK. Conventional wisdom is that, canard stall angle of attack of 35 degrees, which is proposed by the Israelis, and later the importance for countries, the maximum angle of attack, the French Rafale will be limited to 28 degrees, the Chinese J-10 is limited to 26 degrees (SU-27 to 28 degrees), so that at high angles of attack aviation general performance, as good as conventional canard layout, because duck wing stall angle of attack limits the canard of the high angle of attack performance. However, in-stall flight, the Chinese test pilot indeed found another phenomenon, namely the F-10 high angle of attack control performance is far more than the Su-27 (ie, J-10 Cobra maneuver in the flight than the Su-27's perspective ). This information was first disclosed by the mine strong, but the traditional values held by users of the widely questioned. Research into the flight, that's mine strong argument.
J-10 not only has excellent instantaneous plate, all-digital fax (J-11 is the analog fax), flying fire crosslinking technology to significantly relax the static instability (11%) and integrated pneumatic control technology ( 90) brought back to its superior agility and flying qualities. J-10's air combat performance in all of China's active fighters, you can use the "tough" words to describe.
Advantage of the J-10 supersonic motor is still in its outstanding performance. If the emphasis on high-altitude high-speed second-generation fighter, three generations of machine stress in the low-altitude, sub-transonic combat performance, the fourth generation machine part to emphasize that the supersonic motor performance (super patrol, ultra-mobility). SU-27SK Although the maximum speed than the J-10 large (SU-27 largest 2.35MH, J-10 largest 2.2MH), but the standard aerial mounted under the (4 2 near) its maximum speed will drop to 1.7MH the following, and J-10 (2 of 2 past) is greater than 1.9MH, and in the supersonic phase has better mobility. In the SU-27SK and J-10's confrontation, but often there playing, running captive situation.
J-10 is a full airspace, air superiority fighter full speed, before 2010, J-10 has long been a king in the air.
J-10 just in 2004, while serving the avionics system is not perfect; 2005 started perfect follow-up each batch has a new and improved, the old batch were also upgraded. Forum commonly known as J-10A.
J-11 and not at a standstill, the use of Western design standards, our avionics technology, J-11B first flight in 2003 (reportedly still using analog fax), finalized in 2007 and served. J-11B made of the original plan to use the Taihang engine, but because the line performance is not too stable, the first batch of a group of J-11B is still used in AL-31F. The first half of 2008-2009, the line continues not to force too, J-11B accumulate a lot of body but no engine available. Second half of 2009, the line is too basic to solve the problem, J-11B in late 2009 or early 2010, high-volume service. The current production of about 80 aircraft.
The first batch of equipment AL-31F performance of the J-11B is not stable, a few problems, 2010 has not been an effective fighting formation. 2010 and J-10A is carried out against the unknown, there have been rumors of fight, but the result is not very satisfactory. Taihang version of the J-11B, and this may be against the J-10A, is very much looking forward to individuals.
J-10A of the 1473 radar diameter of about 700mm, the target of 3 m ² effective detection distance of about 120 kilometers, J-11B's 1493 radar diameter 960 mm, the target of 3 m ² effective detection range of about 150 km. J-11B over the horizon looks like the attack on the J-10A enjoy the advantage. But the reality did not so simple.
In modern air combat, air combat are the two sides began a silent flight, to provide early warning of enemy targets by the general direction. About 80 km away from both sides to open the radar search and track targets, about 40 km in the missile attacks began. J-11B radar so far away from the benefits are not obvious, and its RCS has a larger offset this advantage.


J-10 first flew in 1998, 2004, setting service, the number more than 200 aircraft currently in production. J-10 has just made public, the official media have called 3.5 generation, and later renamed the third generation. The reason is, J-10, though they have advanced design concepts, but the lack of engine thrust, avionics, weapons performance, advanced enough, and and J-11B, is currently mainly used for air superiority operations, the ground is not strong.
In 2008, J-10B first flight, China's first generation of a true fighter 3.5 was born. 2011 F-10B to the new equipment gradually complete its flight performance of an order to "Jane's Defense" as the representative of British and American experts together, said it was an accident, because the F-10B and F-10A demonstrated by the performance is greatly different.
Two, J-10B
J-10B, compared with the J-10A, shape has been changed:
1, the inlet into DSI ("clam" type) inlet. J-10 to high-altitude high-speed performance, the use of a complex three-wave system Adjustable dual inlet, weight increased. DSI is the latest emerging technologies, he applied in the United States on the latest F-35. Compared with conventional inlet, DSI canceled boundary compartment, greatly reducing the weight. U.S. F-16 on the test results, DSI complex inlet lower than 182KG. Inlet total pressure recovery coefficient is an important indicator of the total pressure recovery coefficient decreased by 1%, thrust down by 1.1% to 1.6%. DSI will help improve the inlet total pressure recovery coefficient, the actual increase engine thrust. These two advantages make the push than the J-10B has been effectively improved. Another advantage of DSI is to remove the boundary layer separated Road, this large source of radar reflection, significantly reduces the RCS. In addition, DSI can reduce costs and improve reliability.
The assertion that DSI before high-speed performance is relatively poor. U.S. F-16 on the test that, DSI in the 0.6-1.2MH, the total pressure recovery coefficient of 0.98, but 2.0MH when only 0.74. Because some people worry that the use of significantly lower DSI J-10 high-altitude high-speed performance. The worry is unnecessary, technology is always in development. Our test results a certain type of inlet is in 1.8MH total pressure recovery coefficient is 0.91, when in 2.0MH 0.87, better than an average three-wave system inlet.
2, from the conical nose into a flat circle, to play into the inlet air before the pre-compression effect. Head slightly downward, to improve vision. The nose radome and the junction for the backward tilt of the slash, it is learned that that it is equipped with AESA (active phased array radar).
Radar development process are: mechanical radar &#8594; PESA (passive phased array radar) &#8594; AESA (active phased array radar). AESA is the same period in the development of four generations of machines and technology, in addition to the current 4th generation machines and equipment, but also for the 3.5-generation equipment and to upgrade or even three generations of machines. Compared with mechanical radar, AESA longer detection range, higher accuracy, reflecting the faster, more multi-target attack capability, more features, anti-interference ability, and higher reliability. Using some of the technology, stealth capable.


Compared with mechanical radar, AESA significant increase in detection range, and even the United States can claim a 100% increase. Stealth is now gradually entering the era of conventional radar stealth aircraft, cruise missiles, stealth RCS reflection of such a small target detection range is very short, such as J-10 is 0.03 in RCS (such as F-22) dropped to 30 from the discovery of km, electromagnetic interference environment in the shorter distances. AESA greater detection range, higher detection accuracy, enabled him to detect such small targets have a great advantage. Multi-target attack capability is three generations of machines began to claims, usually 8-10 months while tracking the target, and 2-4 against them. However, the actual capacity of the three-generation machine that is not practical. As the aircraft with high maneuverability, the conventional radar lock a target, it is difficult to lock another target, so a third generation machine is generally only attack a target, unless faced with a low maneuvering target. AESA fighter truly make this capability. 3 generations of machines began to be used in combat in silent flight, because of its search radar has been opened, like the night of the flashlight, the other early warning systems can easily be found. This issue is more important for stealth aircraft. Modern wars are accompanied by strong electromagnetic interference, making radar detection range significantly shortened. F-22 AESA radar and effective solution to both problems, through the use of radio frequency management technology, the other more difficult to find its radar electromagnetic radiation, is more difficult to be interference. AESA is the foundation to achieve this function. AESA also makes fighter planes with more features such as electronic warfare, with more to reliability.
U.S. equipment AESA earlier, its first in 2000, began as a modified F-15C AESA, radar transmitter unit only when a large, heavy and power powerful. New types of smaller units of various types of emission AESA radar equipment / modification began in 2004, F-22, F-16block60 (away), 2005 F-18E / F and 2010 F-15C. The U.S. is considering for his F-16C facelift AESA. Europe's 3.5 generation, gust 2013 facelift AESA, Typhoon program in 2015, JAS-39NG currently only demonstrator. Russia in 2014, serving SU-35BM (SU-27SM2) equipment is PESA; MiG-35 touches owns its own AESA, but "600mm diameter, 680 transceiver unit, 130 km detection range" configuration has been more tragic. Japan in 2000, serving F-2 is also equipped with AESA, but the radar performance is very tragic, of space exploration is only 40 km away, often missing the target. . It is said that the problem has been resolved, return to normal.
J-10B by the end of the small batch production, the radar uses 1000-1200 a transceiver unit, the target of 3 m ² effective detection distance of 160-180 km can be to have caught up with the trend of world development.
3, switched to diffraction HUD, head installation IRST (infrared search and track system). Diffraction HUD, which is commonly referred to as the wide-angle holographic HUD. HUD and the refraction than its larger field of view (with help of weapons targeting and night flying), the rate location perspective, the character reflectivity higher. Diffraction HUD 3.5 generation fighter technology in the application of the more common, first used in China's J-11B. Although an effective solution to the AESA radar, radiation and interference problems, but can not be completely avoided. IRST passive detection is not only difficult to be found in the detection of stealth aircraft also has the good effect. And are more functional. F-22 is a passive receiver system through the implementation of this function. As noted in that, J-10B of the IRST can track stealth aircraft at 60KM, 30KM to 50KM away from identification with the enemy on, show the enemy formation, the number of enemy statistics, to provide guidance to the missile's capabilities.
4, the installation of e-tail and wing cabin electronics pod. Aircraft electronic warfare capability is very important and critical ability. This machine for light heavy-duty machines generally have certain advantages. J-10B to increase the wing of a pair of hanging points, to add a pair of electronic pod (allegedly removable pod down), with the vertical tail electronic module, which greatly enhanced electronic warfare capabilities.
5, J-10B tail, fins were cut sharp handling, which will help improve high-speed performance, shows remains of its high-altitude high-speed pursuit. J-10B has improved wing structure (the same airfoil), add a pair of hanging points (for electronic warfare equipment), increasing the wing's oil reserves. Use composite wing skins, wing structure to reduce the weight while also strengthening the wing strength.
J-10 is the first domestic full-authority digital fax canard aircraft, the canard trim complex, for fear of oval cross-section of the front fuselage and canard at high angle of attack induced by coupling the vertical divergence, so with a circular cross-section of the forward fuselage. Also, because a J-8II 3-wave system inlet of technologies, so the use of abdominal 3-wave system inlet. After 2000 domestic DSI intake due to start in depth, then there are the FC-1 DSI intake to practice hands on DSI intake have a more in-depth study. Since the successful development of the J-10 and the troops, the domestic full authority digital fax canard aerodynamic characteristics of the study into a deeper level, has overcome the oval before the body coupled with the canard aerodynamic problems. On this basis, the lower part of the development of a body repair body level before half-oval coupled with the canard a more excellent aerodynamic layout of the forward fuselage to improve lift and angle of attack available.
J10B overall aerodynamic shape of the transonic and supersonic area ratio area ratio for the depth of the optimization (to improve the performance of supersonic key), redesigned forward fuselage, vertical fin, pelvic fins, the replacement of a new wing (wing base is not change, using more composite materials), a new generation of high-speed inlet design point of DSI 2.0MH, 2 times the speed of sound in the available total pressure better than 3-wave system inlet, the total time in *2.2MH *(2.2 Mach)pressure recovery remained at a high level; low design point of 1.2MH. Optimized aerodynamic shape in subsonic, transonic, supersonic envelope within the drag effect is obvious, Asia / cross / supersonic lift-drag ratio improved acceleration performance is improved. Canard fly-in 4-generation system an excellent balance of high / low-speed performance. Actual flight test results show that, J-10B high-altitude high-speed better than the J-10A, motor better quality, in full flight envelope (0 ~ 2.3MH) better at every stage of acceleration, maximum speed and practical, practical ceiling and climb rate is better than J10A. Case of high altitude with a bomb (bomb simulation) and static maximum speed and ceiling were higher, and stable hovering performance is gratifying, digital flight control limits the maximum angle of attack up to about 30 °.


*J-10B to enhance the aerodynamic performance of surprise, but the real highlight is its avionics and weapons upgrade. Someone said: "In fact, even if the 10B on AESA is not worth very excited - other avionics equipment, the pace of change and significance of the aircraft can be much greater than one is installed AESA. 10B avionics architecture and performance of a extent with reference to the F-22 Po columns standards, such as an independent flight control, fire control, etc. replaced by a new generation of integrated CIP (Common information processor). "J10B with a new generation of avionics systems, including improved flight control system, the latest supporting airborne phased array radar (active / passive) electronic warfare systems, new optical radar, the system updates no less than 70%.*
J-10B significant increase in the use of composite materials, tried to reduce the RCS process, in addition to DSI intake, body modification, *but also to minimize the appearance of the prominence body*, the navigation light to a semi-buried, will cooling air inlet from the convex-type change possessed embedded. . . J-10B in the process of raising large, RCS reduced an order of magnitude, similar to the Typhoon, Rafale and F-18E / F. *RCS of J-10B is less than 1m ², is a military aircraft in service in the RCS has the smallest models.*
611 and 601 have been together four generations of our competition machine, start the voice of the larger 601, 611 was to back up, J-10 &#26412; There are many variants. But after four generations of machines Whispering 611,611 main force began to shift to four generations on. After 2008, J-10's other programs are suspended, complete the transition to the DSI 10 to change single program, have discussed the possibility of the ship, and finally air-driven equipment, to strengthen the performance of air superiority, the ability to expand multi-purpose, completely abandon the ship direction. 10 change was identified as a 3.5 generation production machines, technology and 4th generation part of the verification, the fourth-generation avionics into (of course including the AESA).
*J-10B-board equipment, radar, avionics although the 4th generation of the air with heavy-duty machine is not the same, but J10B on-board equipment, radar, avionics is the standard developed by four generations, four generations can be considered the standard first version of the practice*. No practical experience of the first edition, 4th generation of the air heavy machine-board equipment, radar, avionics value there may be mutual interference or non-compliance, and this will lead to heavy-duty machine developed four generations of the air exceeded the budget, the development period extended , setting delay. So take J10B as four generations of the air machine airborne equipment, radar, avionics, weapons facilities, structures technology, new materials technology, production process exercises an object, the accumulation of experience. J10 of the modification will always exist, one is to increase (re-4 before serving) Air Force air power needs, and second, to solve ahead of fourth-generation heavy-duty air machine for possible obstacles, to share some of the risk of re-developed 4 . Re 4 is an independent research funding, J10 variant is independent of the funding. J10 of the modified approach to the fourth generation, to share research and test some of the risk of re-4, 4 on the re-development play a multiplier effect, improved version of its ultimate vest will spend four generations in the standard single machine supporting avionics .
In 2009 J-10B first performance analysis written articles, I'm still guessing a new generation of combat missiles PL-10 status. 2 years later, we see that our long-range air to air missiles in development, such as PL-12 of various modifications and PL-21 long-range missile punch. We can imagine with the new J-10B far, the short-range missiles, air combat capability will become more powerful. After 2006, China's precision ground attack munitions also has been considerable development, variety has been greatly enriched. J-10B itself the ability to expand the multi-purpose, with the new ammunition, and ground attack capability has been greatly improved.
J-10B is currently the biggest problem is the engine. J-10 engine thrust is not involved in large, performance is limited, Taihang engine has been unstable. In 2009 J-10B first performance analysis written article, I worry too much line on the J-10B engine will delay progress. Now 2 years later, things did not find the nature of the change, although a large number of Taihang J-11B is equipped with service, but the J-10 on the test is still ongoing. J-10B will begin to install AL-31FN service, probably at the end of small batch production. It is said that two groups has received orders.
Heard the aircraft prepared to spend a lot of money to develop the engine level, and how will boast how fast development. . We do not care about these boast, but also be able to see, although now a little depressed, but the outlook is still good.
We envy SU-35, SU-37, MiG-1.44, S-37, envy gust, typhoon, Gripen, envy MiG -35, SU-35BM, F-22 and more envious of F-35. Now we finally have a catch up with the advanced world level fighter, although there is a big gap from F-22/F-35, but has other 3.5 generation fighter aircraft in the same grade. With the J-10B, we are no longer the envy of double wind. We even began to think, JAS-39C / D as J-10A, and began to explore the FC-1 and JAS-39 comparison. .
The U.S. aircraft carrier on the 3.5-generation F-18E / F, stationed in Japan, the F-15C has also been upgraded to the 3.5 generation. South Korea, Japan, India is planning to buy 3.5 generation fighter, Singapore has been equipped with a small 3.5-generation F-15SG. Four generations of the F-22 in service in 2004, a total of more than 180 aircraft, will be the end of the escalation, has often military in Okinawa, Japan. F-35 is a lot of flight, the next few years will be served. After 2017, F-35 will gradually into neighboring countries such as Japan, Korea, and Australia. China's J-20 first flight was in January. J-20 appearance marked by China's aviation industry began to catch up with Europe, the Air Force into a world-class threshold. But involvement in the engine, J-20 is currently only at the first stage. Facelift later generation of WS-15, the body re-modification, continue to test until the equipment. WS-15 plans to deliver about 2016, so that J-20 sound version of the service time is about 2018-2020 years. So in the eight years, who defend the country's airspace?
Production of J-11B is part of 3 generations, 2007 for the first flight of the J-11BS J-11B two-seater machine, has started to equip; first flight in 2009, is a test of the J-15 carrier aircraft, performance similar to J -11B; may first flight in the second half of the J-16 is similar to the SU-30MKK fighter-bomber (avionics, weapons, increased dramatically). Therefore, this important task was referred to the J-10B of the body. J-10B can be effective against the surrounding 3.5-generation fighter aircraft; in the system against defensive, you can fight F-35.
Three, J-10B in his country.

Pakistan has been rumored ready to buy my 36 J-10, arrival time is about 2014. According to arrival time, the real model should be the J-10B. *J-10A domestic prices close to $ 30 million, J-11B about 54 million, about 24 million A Flying Leopard. FC-1 take-away prices 1500-2000 Wan*, J-10A current export price of about 40 million, *J-10B about 55 million*. The current international market price of the 3.5 generation are: Typhoon 120 million, gusts 110 million, F-15SG 1 &#20159;, F-18E / F 9000 &#19975;, F-16E / F 8000 &#19975;, JAS-39NG 8000 million, the MiG- -355 000 million; three generations of SU-30MKK 6000 million. Compared with the same aircraft grade, J-10B can be described as inexpensive.
Pakistan's existing 34 F-16Block15OCU, now other countries to avionics upgrade F-16Block50 state, the upgrade is completed in 2014. Pakistan's newly purchased 18 F-16Block50/52, by the end of all of arrival. Pakistan may also be expected to buy 18 F-16Block50/52. This to 2014, Pakistan will have 70 F-16Block50/52 state fighters. Since 2007, receiving the first eight JF-17, 2009 began to receive the second batch of 40 JF-17, currently General of Pakistan has received about 30 aircraft. JF-17 after delivery is estimated to be stable at 20 / year rate. In 2014,* Pakistan will be about 100 JF-17. After that batch, is expected to make large improvements, such as stealth modification, facelift AESA, IRST and other installation. *In this way, to 2014, Pakistan will have 170 three generations of modern fighter aircraft.
India in 1997-1999 purchased 18 SU-30K; 2002-2004 was purchased 32 SU-30MKI. India's HAL 2004, the company began assembling the production SU-30MKI, a total of 2014 to produce 90, the current total production of nearly 70. India in 2007 ordered 40 SU-30MKI ,2011-2012 for delivery; 2009 ordered 50 SU-30MKI, 2013-2014 is expected to deliver. 2010 ordered 42 SU-30MKI, in 2014 the company began assembling the production by the HAL, the production is completed in 2018. India currently has a total of 16 MiG-29K, plan to buy 29. India began the 63 old MiG-29 upgrade MiG-29UPG (15 million cost of upgrading / frame), the 51 old Mirage-2000H upgraded Mirage -2000-5 (40 million cost of upgrading / frame). India made light aircraft in service in January 2011, yield about 10 / year. So that by 2014, India will have 230 SU-30MKI, 60 MiG-29UPG, 50 Mirage -2000-5,40 MiG-29K, 40 &#26550; LCA, a total of 420 three generations of modern fighter aircraft.
India is not satisfied with these, it is in full swing preparing to buy 126 3.5 generation fighter aircraft. Is currently finalizing the purchase of double the wind or F-18E / F. . After 2014, India is ready to SU-30MKI fleet for another upgrade.
Several times in the face of their enemies, especially the more modern face of the future 126-plus 3.5-generation fighter aircraft, Pakistan Air Force, both F-16 Block50/52, or JF-17, all appeared to be inadequate. Pakistan plans to buy more second-hand one F-16A / B and make improvements, to supplement the quantity; the other hand, think Pakistan, China, think of the Chinese J-10B. *In fact, there are rumors that Pakistan has been involved in the development of J-10B. .*
J-10B can be effective against the 3.5 generation fighter for India's future, and the rest of India's third generation machine of repression on the formation of performance. If the FC-1 to Pakistan, the F-16 Block50/52 is located after the second machine, then to Pakistan after the J-10B is located in F-16 Block50/52 before the high-end machine.
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## Mani2020

*Some tid bids from EagleHannan*

Our dealing with China is more of a Strategic Partner than just a neighbor and in that sense of you think, you will know that many things too good to be true are on the table. Before we say it takes times for such things to develop, lets look at the situation in strategic terms. The region is becoming hot bed of activity for super powers, everyone is active as this area is of vital importance as a future energy corridor. China is facing loss of grip in South China seas and its other shipping routes. Moreover these routes Can not sustain China's current growth and China can not depend on them for its future with US and other stooges hell bent to disrupt Chinese military and economic ambitions. I am saying it with 100% confidence. How do I know, lets just say I am a witness of such views expressed from people in Chinese labor party. I can not share the material but I was amazed to attend a presentation where the Chinese expressed the importance of Gawadar in China's future strategy and importance of Pakistan as its strategic partner. It is the reason why China is more than forth coming and inshallah will have to stay this way in the future too that it wants to make sure, Pakistan's security needs are more than met. It is the reason why the are making sure, we do not see any other but Chinese way. Question is, do they want us to be dependant? Answer is both yes and no. The importance of Gawadar and Arabian Sea in Chinese economy and defense strategy is immense. We can discuss it at other time. 

Coming to topic at hand, things are progressing faster than we anticipated but like all military acquisitions, there are delays and hiccups. While I agree with you on that normally such radical developments take time. But 8 years to develop and put in operation a fighter which many thought could be no more than an F7 replacement has already shocked the world. Then it was always planned to manufacture in batches not because of changes that might need to be made on the platform itself. China and Pakistan took a lot of time, freezing this air frame in the present condition. The whole focus is on the avionics and weapons development at the moment. At least for JFT.

The current political situation has dictated that while we can incorporate some sub systems in JFT, the major components like radars and EW suits are not available from the west and seems like they wont be. If you remember the news, Pakistan always stated that it is looking for a western radar and avionics suit for JFT and many names appeared on the horizon as candidates. Because of the urgency (replacement of Fantans and F7s) Pakistan agreed to induct KLJ7 radar over all western radars because it fulfilled the BASIC requirement @ decent cost. I never commented but I always thought that KLJ7 was not something PAF would want to settle for a long time. Moreover, while as you said, radars and avionic suits development takes a lot of time, so does replacement of a full system from an aircraft and replace it with something else totally. Imagine the cost of replacing sensors suits + radar of 50 JFTs already in service specially when there is only one facility to do it all. CAC obviously wont be helping us with western radars and avionic suits. 

Original plan was that PAC will have a joint venture for avionics and radar for the block2 aircraft with some western company. The block 2 radar and avionics suit would then be acquired with ToT and Pakistan will make all the western avionics with license of production. This will be the last bock for at least 200 production untis + export units. Then 2 things happened. 1) Because of geo political reasons, no supplier came forward with ToT and license production except those which PAF had already rejected as not being better than KLJ7. 2) China came forward with a new radar that incorporates and adds to existing sensor suit enhancing capability many folds with ToT (sharing than transfer). The new radar proved to be better in economic terms and is a viable solution for foreseeable future. Add to this, the close cooperation between PAC and CAC. Resulting is even faster production rate for aircrafts. Now if you add this to the geo policitcal situation of the region and Pakistan's immediate and dire need to beef up its defenses with modern air arm, the situation becomes clear.

I suspect and am hopeful about silence on JFT front from PAF means something good is going on. I am also now speculative of radar type but like I confirmed before from reliable sources, the swash plat based AESA radar for JFT was ready before PMs visit to China. I tried to find out many times if there is any prototype of JFT is flying with the new avionic suits but couldnt confirm it. Unlike FC20, about which I could squeeze out information like 2 prototypes are flying and both Chinese and Pakistani teams are testing both the air frame and avionics. 
Soon enough new pictures of FC20 also surfaced to confirm reports. As you know defense acquisitions often have certain conditions associated. While I reported that 4 FC20 inshallah are to join PAF by year's end (the confirmation was from a responsible person) I was not told nor I asked the conditions associated. You and me can only report from our contacts (for sheer patriotism and love of PAF to know about it) and can make sure that we do get info from reliable people. But we know mostly one side of the story and are totally unaware of the other conditions associated in defense deals. Like for instance its economic terms, and fall back plans. 

What PAF contacts in our family and circle of friends can tell us is "whats going on now" but of course they can never reveal to us the fall back plans if the present fails either on technical bases or if policy is like; if A is at X condition now, previously was at Y condition and B is at XX condition. We will not invest in A any more, leave it as it is and try to update A platform's Y condition while we'll focus more on B platform with XX condition. I hope you catch my drift. 

We report here on the bases of what we find out. Definitely at one point A could have been and was to be at X condition and we reported it here while PAF exercised the fall back policy and kept it at Y. This is how things work and this is what forums and think tanks do. Speculate on the bases of solid information of present and its translation into the future. No think tank has power over players.

I am very hopeful that all is a go ahead with JFTs new radar + avionics and no news indeed is good news Inshallah.


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## IceCold

Pardon my ignorance but what is a swash based AESA radar? Never heard of the term?


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## A.Muqeet khan

Swashplate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## A.Muqeet khan

i think this is what u are looking for

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## A.Muqeet khan

40 Years In The Desert: Gripen NG Going With Swash Plate AESA Radar here is an other its not realted to jft but i guess u never know


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## S-A-B-E-R->

IceCold said:


> Pardon my ignorance but what is a swash based AESA radar? Never heard of the term?


 
Basicly an AESA radar that can Rotate 360 degree to increase its feield of view

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## Bratva

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> Basicly an AESA radar that can Rotate 360 degree to increase its feield of view


 

Not 360, Because a a radar can not move in nose completely 360. The Swash Plate Aesa Radar Saab Gripen is getting offers 100 Degree of bore sight. So A Swash Radar offers increase field of view which increases RCS too. But not a 360 field of view

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## Manticore

china operates around 210 j10

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## alibaz

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> Basicly an AESA radar that can Rotate 360 degree to increase its feield of view


 
By mounting an AESA radar on a swashplate, the swashplate angle is added to the electronic scan angle. The typical swashplate angle chosen for this application is 40 degrees so the radar can scan a total angle of 200 degrees out of 360

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## Donatello

alibaz said:


> By mounting an AESA radar on a swashplate, the swashplate angle is added to the electronic scan angle. The typical swashplate angle chosen for this application is 40 degrees so the radar can scan a total angle of 200 degrees out of 360


 
Yes...it is 360 degrees forward looking though.


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## propakistani

China 40 F-10B fighter Jifu Pakistan: Yankees panic

According to the U.S. Defense-Update Web site on July 31 reported that China is providing to Pakistan, a J-10B multi-purpose all-weather fighter squadron. Allegedly, this is the Department of the Army Chief of Staff in Pakistan went to NATO Wayi De Assad's visit a week finalized. If the transaction occurs, Pakistan will become the first column after the Chinese J-10B fighters mounted the country.

&#12288;&#12288;Reported that China and Pakistan have been related to J-10 fighters on the transactions related to years of negotiations, which Pakistan wants to import at least two fighter squadrons. Pakistan Air Force squadrons each about 20 combat aircraft, two squadrons of 40 F-10B For Pakistan, its importance is self-evident, it is believed that the transaction referred to in B-type aircraft performance comparable to the F -16 Block 50/52 aircraft.

&#12288;&#12288;In addition to the J-10B fighter to reach an agreement outside the Wayi De Assad will visit to China, the Chinese defense relations between the two countries also pledged to rise to a new level, and China will always be committed to protect Pakistan security. During his visit, Assad called on the People's Liberation Army Wayi De Ma Xiaotian, deputy chief of staff, including the People's Liberation Army National Defense University, and Vice President Ren Haiquan, including other officials.

&#12288;&#12288;At present, Pakistan has also started production designed by the Chinese JF-17 fighter. Pakistan is currently building its territory JF-17 fighter, and actively promote this aircraft to the overseas market.

&#12288;&#12288;Latest J-10B fighter first flight in 2009. J-10 fighter with a significant difference is the installation of a radar signal can be reduced new aircraft radome. In addition to the radome, the redesign of the inlet in addition to increased gas flow, but also to improve the aircraft's stealth performance. J-10B fighter vertical tail, the cabin pylons are fitted with avionics, which may include a variety of sensors and electronic warfare facilities. This type of aircraft is also fitted with a new type of optical sensor, is likely to be forward-looking infrared search and track system. It is believed that, compared with the J-10A type, B-type aircraft can be equipped with more powerful engines and radar systems. (By China)

&#12288;&#12288;Comments: Because bin Laden and the United States after hostilities break out, the U.S. dollar on the bar of iron frozen aid, relations were tense, which makes iron bar marked with the sense of insecurity, Pakistani Prime Minister Gilani's visit to China to seek political help, but apparently is not enough to support China's military assistance is the obligation as an ally, so only the previous 50 Xiaolong, and now there are these 40 F-10B, I think the most headache should not the United States, the United States but did not dare to lightly humiliated bar iron, the real headache is to Asan.
Hot Bowen recommended:
http://blog.huanqiu.com/blog-429145-2237583.html


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## Dazzler

A bit off topic but.......

Yanks must be in an anguish alright, their War On Terror ate their economy now they are standing on the verge of huge economic crisis as there is hardly 70-75 bill available for expenditures, no money for soldier salary, i never thought i would see the downfall of United States of Yank in my life time. China is the future Super Power so it is better for us to stick with them.

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## propakistani

China sold Pakistan's J-10B fighter, enough to equip two squadrons of Pakistan, J-10A price close to $ 30 million, J-11B approximately $ 54 million , Feibao A is about 24 million FC-1 take-away price for the 1500-2000 Wan, J-10A export price is currently 40 million, J-10B is about 54 million, the current international market, F-16E / F price 80 million, but also the harsh conditions of the U.S. government attachments, JAS-39NG 8000 million, the MiG-35 to 50 million, three generations of SU-30MKK 60 million, compared with the same grade Indian fighter purchase price, you can think and know, how the Indian mind. 

In this, India can only hope Pakistan Despair. In addition, the Chinese fighters to Pakistan, if Pakistan's financial difficulties, China will provide preferential loans, so, India would like to buy fighters the United States or Russia will not get this treatment, from which can be compared to see the relationship between China and Pakistan, but also can not drive a wedge between the United States, Chinese relations with Pakistan but also to upgrade, this is an upgrade from the all-weather partnership, but also to upgrade to which level, the Indian think about it slowly.


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## Manticore

propakistani said:


> China sold Pakistan's J-10B fighter, enough to equip two squadrons of Pakistan, J-10A price close to $ 30 million, J-11B approximately $ 54 million , Feibao A is about 24 million FC-1 take-away price for the 1500-2000 Wan, J-10A export price is currently 40 million, J-10B is about 54 million, the current international market, F-16E / F price 80 million, but also the harsh conditions of the U.S. government attachments, JAS-39NG 8000 million, the MiG-35 to 50 million, three generations of SU-30MKK 60 million, compared with the same grade Indian fighter purchase price, you can think and know, how the Indian mind.
> 
> In this, India can only hope Pakistan Despair. In addition, the Chinese fighters to Pakistan, if Pakistan's financial difficulties, China will provide preferential loans, so, India would like to buy fighters the United States or Russia will not get this treatment, from which can be compared to see the relationship between China and Pakistan, but also can not drive a wedge between the United States, Chinese relations with Pakistan but also to upgrade, this is an upgrade from the all-weather partnership, but also to upgrade to which level, the Indian think about it slowly.


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## DV RULES

*China Officially Offers Pakistan J-10 Variant*



3 Aug 2011 10:22

ISLAMABAD - China for the first time officially offered Pakistan a variant of its most advanced frontline fighter, the Chengdu J-10 Vigorous Dragon/F-10 Vanguard.

Citing defense sources, the offer was reported in the Urdu press here over the weekend. The offer was made during the recent visit to China by Lt. Gen. Waheed Arshad, the Pakistani Army chief of General Staff. 

Official Pakistani interest in the fighter dates back to February 2006, when then-Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf toured the J-10 production facilities on a trip to China. Pakistani government approval for the purchase of 36 FC-20s, a Pakistani-specific variant, was given in April 2006. Service entry was slated for the middle of the decade. 

Precise details of the deal are not yet known. However, Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, said "the initial deal will be for at least two squadrons [at least 32 aircraft] and will be financed by China via a soft, long-term loan." 

Analyst Kaiser Tufail said the J-10's operational autonomy would be far greater than that provided by the U.S.-built F-16C. 

"It has to be remembered that India refused to consider the F-16C/D and F-18E/F, as they wanted a freer hand in operability aspects as well as technology transfer, which the U.S. was unwilling to provide," Tufail said. 

With the J-10, Pakistan would "be able to operate it in an environment not constrained by security restrictions," and could base the aircraft wherever desired, Tufail said. He also said the lack of technology-transfer restrictions from the original equipment manufacturer is a factor. 

"The J-10 will provide F-16-class capabilities for Pakistan but without the cost and political encumbrances of U.S.-sourced aircraft," Carlo Kopp of the Air Power Australia think tank said. 

"What a J-10 would provide is quantity over any U.S.- or EU-sourced product," Kopp said, though he is still uncertain whether China will supply "pre-loved J-10A&#8230;or new-build J-10A or J-10B airframes." 

Shabbir said the broader Sino-Pakistani combat aircraft relationship has eroded Western influence over Pakistan, though he remains concerned about the implications Pakistan's fragile economy has for its defense capabilities. 

"The availability of J-10 and JF-17 from the Chinese means that Pakistan is now not that reliant on the U.S. and Europe for its aircraft requirements, and this of course will erode U.S influence over Pakistan in the long term," he said. 

The Pakistani Air Force is the largest operator of U.S supplied weapons in South Asia and therefore most vulnerable to sanctions.

China Officially Offers Pakistan J-10 Variant | DISAM Online Journal & News Source


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## Beast

nabil_05 said:


> A bit off topic but.......
> 
> Yanks must be in an anguish alright, their War On Terror ate their economy now they are standing on the verge of huge economic crisis as there is hardly 70-75 bill available for expenditures, no money for soldier salary, i never thought i would see the downfall of United States of Yank in my life time. China is the future Super Power so it is better for us to stick with them.



Precisely, those still clinging onto the thinking american stuff is the best, they will be the most technology country is just old thinking. American has not invest hard in R&D and their expenditures on management in military research is laughable. Look at their F-35, how the bill has shake them up.. 

China is the future. With Chinese progress so fast, in just 5 years time. China will make military equipement even superior than USA. In fact, some equipment have already done so. Smart people look at the future, holding onto od thinking and old things is seeking your own grave.

J-10B is comfirmed to be superior Block 52 even Block 60 which the arabs has.. Basically F-16 is an old airframe that can't keep up with the demand of 21th century of super agility and high performance. Trust me, F-16 is no way going to match a J-10 in a dogfight if both pilots are equally competent.


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## AMCA

yes .......


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## Dil Pakistan

I think with the induction of j10B and JF17 paf will gain a very unique advantage over iaf.

Traditionally all airforces learn to counter their adversary airforces strenghts by practicing against their adversary airforces toys in excercises. Now paf can learn about SU30MKI and other iaf planes by doing excercises with chinese airforce and other airforce. However, iaf has no arrangement about jf17 and j10B


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## AMCA

Dil Pakistan said:


> I think with the induction of j10B and JF17 paf will gain a very unique advantage over iaf.
> 
> Traditionally all airforces learn to counter their adversary airforces strenghts by practicing against their adversary airforces toys in excercises. Now paf can learn about SU30MKI and other iaf planes by doing excercises with chinese airforce and other airforce. However, iaf has no iaf has arrangement about jf17 and j10B


 
Su 30 MKI... Design is the the only area of match with su 30 MKK , There is no way you can learn about the sub systems used in MKI. MKI is a joint venture between HAL and Russia..


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## AMCA

Dil Pakistan said:


> I think with the induction of j10B and JF17 paf will gain a very unique advantage over iaf.
> 
> Traditionally all airforces learn to counter their adversary airforces strenghts by practicing against their adversary airforces toys in excercises. Now paf can learn about SU30MKI and other iaf planes by doing excercises with chinese airforce and other airforce. However, iaf has no iaf has arrangement about jf17 and j10B


 
Su 30 MKI... Design is the the only area of match with su 30 MKK , There is no way you can learn about the sub systems used in MKI. MKI is a joint venture between HAL and Russia..


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

AMCA said:


> Su 30 MKI... Design is the the only area of match with su 30 MKK , There is no way you can learn about the sub systems used in MKI. MKI is a joint venture between HAL and Russia..


but at least they are same specie...............


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## Dil Pakistan

AMCA said:


> Su 30 MKI... Design is the the only area of match with su 30 MKK , There is no way you can learn about the sub systems used in MKI. MKI is a joint venture between HAL and Russia..


 
Well! Even if i accept your arguement then the first thing is the aircraft detection i.e. RCS signature and paf can easily learn. Thereafter, paf can learn its maneuvarability, turn rates, weaknesses at different angles etc etc. Sub systems are largely academic and dont need active excercise environment to get used to. 

Contrary to this iaf has no way to learn how to counter jf17 and j10B

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## Beast

Dil Pakistan said:


> Well! Even if i accept your arguement then the first thing is the aircraft detection i.e. RCS signature and paf can easily learn. Thereafter, paf can learn its maneuvarability, turn rates, weaknesses at different angles etc etc. Sub systems are largely academic and dont need active excercise environment to get used to. Contrary iaf has no such arrangements about jf17 and j10B


 
Yup. They know nothing about J-10B. While MKI system is based on Russian, French and Israel which all are friendly countries of China. 

BARS of MKI is no secret. China can easily obtain its spec from Russia. I think India still remember how Russia betray India in order to please China by allowing re export of RD-93 engines to Pakistan few years ago... 

Russia has low regard for Indians. They raise the price of INS Vikramaditya and MKI like no business, knowing India can't do a single thing about it. They even turn away an Indian fleet recently without even notifying Indian side of the cancellation with the Indian fleet making all the way to Russia sea.


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## Cool_Soldier

I agree, At least PAF has learnt about Su30MKI and how to tackle these birds in real war scenario.Moreover, Pakistan too has opportunity to learn about future IAF (Typhoon) by doing exercise with KSA and in case of Rafle then doing Exercise with UAE(If UAE plans to get them).
But India still has no way to learn practically about our future Birds.


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## AMCA

Dil Pakistan said:


> Well! Even if i accept your arguement then the first thing is the aircraft detection i.e. RCS signature and paf can easily learn. Thereafter, paf can learn its maneuvarability, turn rates, weaknesses at different angles etc etc. Sub systems are largely academic and dont need active excercise environment to get used to. Contrary iaf has no such arrangements about jf17 and j10B


 
The Engines, The TVC, the Canards, the Radar, The avionics package are all different... Even the RCS cannot be mapped my dear.


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## AMCA

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> but at least they are same specie...............


 
Indeed... But that doesnt earn a comparison.


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## AMCA

Dil Pakistan said:


> Well! Even if i accept your arguement then the first thing is the aircraft detection i.e. RCS signature and paf can easily learn. Thereafter, paf can learn its maneuvarability, turn rates, weaknesses at different angles etc etc. Sub systems are largely academic and dont need active excercise environment to get used to.
> 
> Contrary to this iaf has no way to learn how to counter jf17 and j10B


 
Lol.... Buddy In India the study is already on, based on the Chinese J-20 which is the only serious threat to Indian air space...


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## Dil Pakistan

AMCA said:


> The Engines, The TVC, the Canards, the Radar, The avionics package are all different... Even the RCS cannot be mapped my dear.


 
AMCA! I hope you understand that one does not need dot to dot information about adversary aircraft to succeed aganist it. As i said before, even if your arguement is accepted, paf can get a "siginicant" amount of knowledge through active war scenario excercises combined with academic knowledge gained via 'other' resources and if paf combines these two smartly that would be the end of your SU30MKI. 

On the other hand iaf has no resource for real war time or academic knowledge of the two most front line fighters of paf


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## Beast

AMCA said:


> Lol.... Buddy In India the study is already on, based on the Chinese J-20 which is the only serious threat to Indian air space...



Talk is cheap. I can say J-10B is serious threat to India, no other country beside China and Pakistan side possess J-10B.

Your MKI is fill with full of foreign system especially Russia. I bet the Russia already allow Chinese delegate to tour the MKI manufacturing side and already brief Chinese delegate all the cons and pros of MKI. The fact, as long as the design and birth of the product is not in your country. It is hard to keep a secret especially Russia is friendly to China.


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## AMCA

Dil Pakistan said:


> AMCA! I hope you understand that one does not need dot to dot information about adversary aircraft to succeed aganist it. As i said before, even if your arguement is accepted, paf can get a "siginicant" amount of knowledge through active war scenario excercises combined with academic knowledge gained via 'other' resources and if paf combines these two smartly that would be the end of your SU30MKI.
> 
> On the other hand iaf has no resource for real war time or academic knowledge of the two most front line fighters of paf


 
What do you mean by resource, a Joint air exercise?? or a ride on it? Or get a real TOT from the manufacturer?? Come on... The Maneuverability , the complexity , the RCS can be measured by conducting a study on it.. Of course the limits are set up by the pilot who pilots it which is perhaps the only thing which cannot be measured or obtained.


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## Dil Pakistan

AMCA said:


> Lol.... Buddy In India the study is already on, based on the Chinese J-20 which is the only serious threat to Indian air space...


 
Really !!!! Is j20 the only threat to iaf !!!! Sir the kill ratio of j10A vs SU30 has been reported as 5 : 0 in favour of j10A. And how about f-16, j10b


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## AMCA

Beast said:


> Talk is cheap. I can say J-10B is serious threat to India, no other country beside China and Pakistan side possess J-10B.
> 
> Your MKI is fill with full of foreign system especially Russia. I bet the Russia already allow Chinese delegate to tour the MKI manufacturing side and already brief Chinese delegate all the cons and pros of MKI. The fact, as long as the design and birth of the product is not in your country. It is hard to keep a secret especially Russia is friendly to China.


 
Well, if you say a joint venture product like MKi whose secrets could be let out to a 3rd country. Then I agree, but how does J-10 B be a threat to our skies?? I have nothing to say if you still think every country shares there technology with you to pit India...


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## AMCA

Dil Pakistan said:


> Really !!!! Is j20 the only threat to iaf !!!! Sir the kill ratio of j10A vs SU30 has been reported as 5 : 0 in favour of j10A. And how about f-16, j10b


 
And when did this happen my dear?? we are talking about MKI here.... Not su 30.


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## Dil Pakistan

AMCA said:


> What do you mean by resource, a Joint air exercise?? or a ride on it? Or get a real TOT from the manufacturer?? Come on... The Maneuverability , the complexity , the RCS can be measured by conducting a study on it.. Of course the limits are set up by the pilot who pilots it which is perhaps the only thing which cannot be measured or obtained.


 
Resources include joint excercises, info from friendly airforces, inside info from manufacturers etc etc


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## Beast

AMCA said:


> Well, if you say a joint venture product like MKi whose secrets could be let out to a 3rd country. Then I agree, but how does J-10 B be a threat to our skies?? I have nothing to say if you still think every country shares there technology with you to pit India...



Then how can SU-30MKI can be a threat to Pakistan side?


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## Dil Pakistan

AMCA said:


> And when did this happen my dear?? we are talking about MKI here.... Not su 30.


 
Just go few pages back on this
Thread and you will find 'how and when it happened'


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## AMCA

Beast said:


> Then how can SU-30MKI can be a threat to Pakistan side?


 
Where in my speech have I ever mentioned it ???


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## AMCA

Dil Pakistan said:


> Just go few pages back on this
> Thread and you will find 'how and when it happened'


 
You mean Su 30 MKI has a 5:0 kill ratio with J-10 B?? wonder when it happened.


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## AMCA

Dil Pakistan said:


> Resources include joint excercises, info from friendly airforces, inside info from manufacturers etc etc


 
Joint exercises are one way to find how potent is the aircraft- Agreed... Do you really think you would be getting Inside infos from Manufacturers and Airforces??? And that would obviously be positive infos, will anyone under rate there product??


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## Beast

AMCA said:


> Where in my speech have I ever mentioned it ???


 
I can sense a sense helpless in that reply.... There is nothing India can do about it.


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## AMCA

Beast said:


> I can sense a sense helpless in that reply.... There is nothing India can do about it.


 
Well, I wonder.... What is that you try to convey??


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## Dil Pakistan

AMCA you have done your best to argue that paf cannot learn about SU30MKI but you have not said a single word that how will iaf learn about jf17 or j10B (or you will continue to burry your head in sand that both are no threat to iaf)


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## Dil Pakistan

AMCA said:


> Joint exercises are one way to find how potent is the aircraft- Agreed... Do you really think you would be getting Inside infos from Manufacturers and Airforces??? And that would obviously be positive infos, will anyone under rate there product??


 
AMCA you should know better than me that it is not difficult at all to get inside from manufacturers and airforces. And these are correct infos! YES


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## AMCA

Dil Pakistan said:


> AMCA you have done your best to argue that paf cannot learn about SU30MKI but you have not said a single word that how will iaf learn about jf17 or j10B (or you will continue to burry your head in sand that both are no threat to iaf)


 
My argument was simple... I have never stated PAF cannot learn about MKI.... I have said a detailed case study on it can finish the job, case study made simple if you have allies, if not another hard nut to crack.


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## AMCA

Dil Pakistan said:


> AMCA you should know better than me that it is not difficult at all to get inside from manufacturers and airforces. And these are correct infos! YES


 
I am not so sure either sir, All I know is, no one shares false info's about there product no matter even if with allies, In this world of marketing and promoting do you think a manufacturer or an Air force would send negative information on a product? If they do, then I have no words to counter it, I believe if in that case...


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## Dil Pakistan

AMCA said:


> My argument was simple... I have never stated PAF cannot learn about MKI.... I have said a detailed case study on it can finish the job, case study made simple if you have allies, if not another hard nut to crack.


 
And how about iaf learning about jf17 and j10B ????

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## AMCA

Dil Pakistan said:


> And how about iaf learning about jf17 and j10B ????


 
Quite simple, Get details about the Lavi fighter from Israel and a little about the Scrapped Mig 19 program from the Russians. Dont you think you have an open book model to look after aswell?


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## Manticore

J10B FLEW AGAIN TODAY (8.6)












credits houshangahi

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## khurasaan1

Alhamdolillah! we are nomore dependant on US anymore......


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## Beast

AMCA said:


> Quite simple, Get details about the Lavi fighter from Israel and a little about the Scrapped Mig 19 program from the Russians. Dont you think you have an open book model to look after aswell?


 
LOL... I admire IAF way of doing it this way... Pathetic.

I helped you answer it ' IAF is clueless about J-10B and JF-17. Helpless too!'


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## Manticore

j10b flew yesterday aswell

credits houshangahi

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## AMCA

Beast said:


> LOL... I admire IAF way of doing it this way... Pathetic.


 
I am no spoke person of IAF... I answered to a question which was asked to me.... My personal opinion...


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## AMCA

Beast said:


> I helped you answer it ' IAF is clueless about J-10B and JF-17. Helpless too!'


 
You just stood for your helplessness... Nothing else...


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## Beast

ANTIBODY said:


> j10b flew yesterday aswell
> 
> credits houshangahi



it seems they are intensifying the test. But I bet the real test is not conducted in the populated city of Chengdu. The one at chengdu is for publicity only.

Real test one shall be at inland remote area of China. Out of public sight with probably 2-3 prototypes flying around to get the data and test more quickly since CCP is loaded with cash and can afford many prototype to fasten everything.


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## Dil Pakistan

It is gorgeous and graceful fighter. I would love to see it fully loaded with missiles and bombs (and obviously in paf colors)


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## Beast

AMCA said:


> You just stood for your helplessness... Nothing else...


 
We helpless? Until now you have not give a credible way or answer how IAF is going to do it. I bet IAF is as clueless as you.


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## AMCA

Beast said:


> We helpless? Until now you have not give a credible way or answer how IAF is going to do it. I bet IAF is as clueless as you.


 
Well I answered it quite and simple... Upto u to take ...


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## Dil Pakistan

Well as we understand now, in a war scenario iaf will be going against paf quite blindly (i think it is quite a nightmare for any airforce). Rest in peace iaf.


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## Beast

AMCA said:


> Well I answered it quite and simple... Upto u to take ...


 
Reader will know that is a stupid answer. I hope IAF is not as stupid as you. You yrself make you sound stupid.


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## Beast

Dil Pakistan said:


> Well as we understand now, in a war scenario iaf will be going against paf quite blindly (i think it is quite a nightmare for any airforce). Rest in peace iaf.



Precisely...


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## AMCA

Its quite surprising isnt it? You can learn about Su 30 MKI from Su 30 MKK and Su 27's But India cannot learn the J-10 from Isreael Lavi and JF-17 from Mig 19... Well if this keeps my neighbors happy so be it.


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## AMCA

Beast said:


> Reader will know that is a stupid answer. I hope IAF is not as stupid as you. You yrself make you sound stupid.


 
Mind your words, do not step on your limits... Its not only you who knows to use such languages... Take it in the spirit of debate, dont take it to the personal edge..


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## Beast

AMCA said:


> Its quite surprising isnt it? You can learn about Su 30 MKI from Su 30 MKK and Su 27's But India cannot learn the J-10 from Isreael Lavi and JF-17 from Mig 19... Well if this keeps my neighbors happy so be it.



You are the only being feeling that way... Don't drag all your compatriot and everybody in. They don't want to be as embarrassing as you.

Let's have a joke... If you know WWII Zero fighter characteristic, you will know Euro2000 Typhoon too... Hehehehe....


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## AMCA

Beast said:


> You are the only being feeling that way... Don't drag all your compatriot and everybody in. They don't want to be as embarrassing as you.


 
You are taking it to the personal level... Debate the topic not the debater...I stick to what I said... Digesting it is your headache not mine..


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

AMCA said:


> Its quite surprising isnt it? You can learn about Su 30 MKI from Su 30 MKK and Su 27's But India cannot learn the J-10 from Isreael Lavi and JF-17 from Mig 19... Well if this keeps my neighbors happy so be it.


 
Are u tht smart? sarcastic.


sU-30mki is a tweaked out su-30.... advanced version of su-27-same airframe,engine? n avionics are also somewhat similiar.
J-10 on lavi? lol

Lavi is decades old while J-10 came was introduced recently and is still going evolution!

What is similiar in Lavi n J-10???

Mig-19? and JF-17? HAHA.. U indians r so funny........ first u rant tht JF-17 is a souped out mig-21.. than u ranted tht it is based on some russian project tht never left drawing board and now mig-19?


Serious u guys r dellusional.

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## Yeti

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Are u tht smart? sarcastic.
> 
> 
> sU-30mki is a tweaked out su-30.... advanced version of su-27-same airframe,engine? n avionics are also somewhat similiar.
> J-10 on lavi? lol
> 
> Lavi is decades old while J-10 came was introduced recently and is still going evolution!
> 
> What is similiar in Lavi n J-10???
> 
> Mig-19? and JF-17? HAHA.. U indians r so funny........ first u rant tht JF-17 is a souped out mig-21.. than u ranted tht it is based on some russian project tht never left drawing board and now mig-19?
> 
> 
> Serious u guys r dellusional.



Where did u get the idea of the mki having the same engine as the su-27? or the 
avionics being similar?


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## Beast

AMCA said:


> You are taking it to the personal level... Debate the topic not the debater...I stick to what I said... Digesting it is your headache not mine..


 
You keep trolling and avoid the question. How do you expect me to talk sense things with you?


----------



## AMCA

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Are u tht smart? sarcastic.
> 
> 
> sU-30mki is a tweaked out su-30.... advanced version of su-27-same airframe,engine? n avionics are also somewhat similiar.
> J-10 on lavi? lol
> 
> Lavi is decades old while J-10 came was introduced recently and is still going evolution!
> 
> What is similiar in Lavi n J-10???
> 
> Mig-19? and JF-17? HAHA.. U indians r so funny........ first u rant tht JF-17 is a souped out mig-21.. than u ranted tht it is based on some russian project tht never left drawing board and now mig-19?
> 
> 
> Serious u guys r dellusional.


 
Wrong judgment, Even the airframe is not similar. Avionics package are from Russia , India and Israel so no comparison, If there is a comparison then is the same with J-10 and Lavi and Mig 19 to JF-17 If its just because of Airframe, Prove it otherwise.


----------



## Dil Pakistan

AMCA!!! There is an analogy between MKK and MKI but there is no analogy between lavi and j10B ( and mig19 and jf17). J10B and jf17 are now completely different beast (i am talking about the end product).


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## AMCA

Beast said:


> You keep trolling and avoid the question. How do you expect me to talk sense things with you?


 
What answer did I avoid, I have answered all your queries, You try to keep it incomplete just because you never expected nor can you digest it... Why not disprove and lets talk...


----------



## AMCA

Dil Pakistan said:


> AMCA!!! There is an analogy between MKK and MKI but there is no analogy between lavi and j10B ( and mig19 and jf17). J10B and jf17 are now completely different beast (i am talking about the end product).


 
End products are different aswell.... What similarity do you find in Su 30 MKK and Su 30 MKI that you call it the same end product... Design wise my statement match aswell isnt it?


----------



## Beast

AMCA said:


> End products are different aswell.... What similarity do you find in Su 30 MKK and Su 30 MKI that you call it the same end product... Design wise my statement match aswell isnt it?



But China can ask Russian for info. So as Israel. Both countries are leaning towards China at the moment. Then China will pass the info to Pakistan.

But India can't ask China for J-10 and JF-17 info, right? The most they can get is engine info from Russia but that will changes soon soon as it will fit with Chinese engine next years.. Then IAF will have zero info on either planes...

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## AMCA

Beast said:


> But China can ask Russian for info. So as Israel. Both countries are leaning towards China at the moment.
> 
> But India can't ask China for J-10 and JF-17 info, right? The most they can get is engine info from Russia but that will changes soon soon as it will fit with Chinese engine next years.. Then IAF will have zero info on either planes...


 
Israel and Russia Leaning on China?? Please.... Dont do that to yourself... And Hey the same can be said about Su 30 MKI... The core product of SU 30 MKI are the "Vetrivale avionics suite" , If design can be obtained from Russia, we can do the same for your J-10 and JF-17 from Israel and Russia Respectively.


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## Beast

AMCA said:


> Israel and Russia Leaning on China?? Please.... Dont do that to yourself... And Hey the same can be said about Su 30 MKI... The core product of SU 30 MKI are the "Vetrivale avionics suite" , If design can be obtained from Russia, we can do the same for your J-10 and JF-17 from Israel and Russia Respectively.


 
Of cos Russia is leaning towards China. Do you still remember the humilitation of Russia approve the re export of RD-93 engines to Pakistan. Between China and India, Russia choose China... Without the re -export of RD-93, it will effectively kill off JF-17 or seriously delay it for many years. But Russia didn't, cos China back the deal. Russia has a huge border with China. They cant ill afford hostile with China especially PLA is very well fund and well arm. Being friendly with China is the only solution. China asking few info about MKI from Russian shall not be a problem.

Israel just re establish military ties with China despite dis approval from Uncle Sam. They know its important to be friend with the new superpower.

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## AMCA

Beast said:


> Of cos Russia is leaning towards China. Do you still remember the humilitation of Russia approve the re export of RD-93 engines to Pakistan. Between China and India, Russia choose China... Without the re -export of RD-93, it will effectively kill off JF-17 or seriously delay it for many years. But Russia didn't, cos China back the deal. Russia has a huge border with China. They cant ill afford hostile with China especially PLA is very well fund and well arm. Being friendly with China is the only solution. China asking few info about MKI from Russian shall not be a problem.
> 
> Israel just re establish military ties with China despite dis approval from Uncle Sam. They know its important to be friend with the new superpower.


 
Well, India was not happy about the RD-93 sale to pakistan , 100% true... It is neither a humiliation nor a tactic of china to have helped to do otherwise. It is a well known fact, a tender once signed cannot be taken back, unless otherwise an international body is ready to compensate the loss...


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## Beast

AMCA said:


> Well, India was not happy about the RD-93 sale to pakistan , 100% true... It is neither a humiliation nor a tactic of china to have helped to do otherwise. It is a well known fact, a tender once signed cannot be taken back, unless otherwise an international body is ready to compensate the loss...


 
Dont kid yourself.. Russia can do what she deemed. They sign a deal with India for INS Vikramaditya and can change another deal with a mark up price and shoved it to India and sign it.... Don't tell me that is not a fact?

They can do that to RD-93 deal but they did not. China is the backer of that deal. You know who not to mess with....


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## AMCA

Beast said:


> Dont kid yourself.. Russia can do what she deemed. They sign a deal with India for INS Vikramaditya and can change another deal with a mark up price and shoved it to India and sign it.... Don't tell me that is not a fact?.



Vikramaditya, a Disappointment indeed , as we just wanted a vessel to be upgraded, but Russia has not only upgraded it but also modified it and is sharing its latest technologies with us, what more does a nation like us want.. Money, if it was ever a problem why would we go for such vessel.. Price rise was because of Corrupt officers and Politicians who played in the middle... Russia has nothing to do with it.


Beast said:


> They can do that to RD-93 deal but they did not. China is the backer of that deal. You know who not to mess with....


 
Definitely not.... A tender was not tried to stop in the fist place then speak of china playing its role...


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## VelocuR

Greattt picture ever seen so far! Dangerous scary J-10B!

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## Manticore

ANTIBODY said:


> J10B FLEW AGAIN TODAY (8.6)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> credits houshangahi





ANTIBODY said:


> j10b flew yesterday aswell
> 
> credits houshangahi

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## SBD-3

Did our media miss that??


> 2011-07-31 (China Military News cited from PTI) -- China will give Pakistan a squadron of the advanced J-10B multi-role, all-weather fighter aircraft in a bid to boost the strategic reach of its close ally, a media report has said.
> 
> China has made the offer to Pakistan Army's Chief of General Staff, Lt Gen Waheed Arshad, who has just concluded a week long visit to China, the Pakistani Urdu daily Jang said.
> 
> Pakistan will be the first country, after China, to have such advanced aircraft which are equipped with the latest weapons, it said.
> During Arshad's visit, China reiterated its defence and economic support to Pakistan and assured him that the relationship between the two countries will reach new heights and Beijing's efforts for the safety and security of "all weather" ally will be never-ending.
> 
> *Lt Gen Arshad visited many sensitive places in China *and called on General Ma Xiaotian, deputy chief of general staff of People's Liberation Army and other officials including Lt General Ren Haiquan, the vice president of the National Defence University.
> 
> China to give squadron of J10-B fighters to Pak
> Though China has earlier supplied Pakistan with fighter jets, this is the first time that it is supplying advanced jets to Pakistan.
> 
> China and Pakistan have also jointly built an advanced fighter jet, JF-17, commonly known as 'Thunder'.

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## chisty_chowdhury

Bangladesh is also planning to procure J-10X and is currently evaluating it.


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## Nestea

Yesterday's J-10A/B images (8.7)

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## Nestea



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## Nestea



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## Nestea



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## Nestea



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## Mani2020



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## Mani2020

Missile integration


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## Arsalan

Mani2020 said:


> Missile integration


 
here are a few more!
















enjoy!
regards!


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## Arsalan

i wish we get to see this picture with PAF Base Sargodha in the background:






what a deadly combination!


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## godson

ANTIBODY said:


> why are people so looking down on j10a ? it has range and payload , plus can be upgraded e aesa radar
> 
> 
> j10a is not that obsolete as you might think..
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca-418.html#post1957879


 
I also think J10A can defeat MKI in most ocasions , because J10A allready had a very smaller RCS than MKI, that's the reason J 10A locked MKV for tens of times while MKV can not find J10A, as to MKI, things still not changed. besides, MKI have front wing, so the RCS maybe lager than MKV. Western media also reported MKI's radar can see far but cant see clearly
When things come to dog fight, anyone konws who is the winner.

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## lmjiao

New Pics&#65306;J-10B with WS-10/Taihang engine.

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## Beast

rockstar said:


> You already answered in your post as what I meant. Chinese are more to produce locally everything...Whereas Indian projects is going on+will be huge in future. I know the China spent more, but locally......in coming days i will grow in the same way.
> 
> If you think Russia sells more weapons to Chinese, just think about these deals.
> 
> 271 MKIs Going on
> 69 MIG 29 upgrade
> Aircraft carrier.
> FGFA - (estimated more than 30 billion)
> This apart from other deals like tanks, other weapons, ships, and lease of nuke subs.
> 
> Also Russians know that there is no future with Chinese sales...


 
This precisely bring my point.. Despite India being Russia biggest arm importer. Russian refuse to bound to India pressure for cancellation of RD-93 sales to Pakistan. Even more ironic is RD-93 sales which assit JFT will come in as direct competitor against Mikoyan Mig-29. Mikoyan CEO even lobby trying to block RD93 engines sales but failed. RD-93 engines sales earn just that little money but anger their biggest importer, compete against their countryman(mig-29) product.. In fact, it is a lose lose deal... Why Russia go ahead with it?

Becos of *CHINA*... Russia after 2006 foresee China as their true strategic partner. A real Superpower.

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## Arsalan

arsalanaslam123 said:


> dear, *i know this wont help as you don't want to understand.* however, *if you have some time, you can check the annual exports of Russian arms to china and India. the Chinese imports are on a decline but are still more then that of India.* i don't think there is any need to mention the comparison of Chinese defense spending with than of India, the difference is huge! this is common sense, isn't it.
> as mentioned, as china is getting more and more self reliable in defense industry of the imports are on a decline but are more then that of India. to this add the Pakistan potential imports and he results will be quite obvious, but, for only those who want to understand!
> 
> in case of RD-93, the order was put up by China and Russian couldn't afford to cancel the deal to please India despite there pressure!
> if you want a link for this as well, you can ask your Indian friends who were very confident that the RD-93 is gone and JFT is a failed project!!
> it is difficult to find them these day!!!


 


rockstar said:


> You already answered in your post as what I meant. Chinese are more to produce locally everything...Whereas Indian projects is going on+will be huge in future. I know the China spent more, but locally......in coming days i will grow in the same way.
> 
> If you think Russia sells more weapons to Chinese, just think about these deals.
> 
> 271 MKIs Going on
> 69 MIG 29 upgrade
> Aircraft carrier.
> FGFA - (estimated more than 30 billion)
> This apart from other deals like tanks, other weapons, ships, and lease of nuke subs.
> 
> Also Russians know that there is no future with Chinese sales...



just as i said, can you please check the underlined part of my post.

anyways, coming back to topic, there are news that Bangladesh are also interested in J-10. it is not confirmed which variant they are interested in but PAF must make sure that they get something that is not going to Bangladesh as anything the Bangladesh air force will procure will eventually end up with IAF having a check and insight at it.
i think here the the J-10B and FC-20 will come into play! nothing much in know as yet so it is better not to speculate!

regards!


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## Bravo92

Can anyone tell me when the specifications of FC-20 will be provided officially?


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## Jango

Are those dummy missiles or the real thing?


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## Manticore

ive started a thread on j10 multimedia
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...3818-j-10-fighter-photos-videos-thread-3.html

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## abdulbarijan

serialkiller said:


> NOPE I'M SERIOUS



Welcome to the forum and my sincerest apologies for the following :-
Dear you might not know this but this is a place which is for good debates and discussions not for some lame old jokes,well occasional jokes are good and are always welcome by forum members here but silly comparisons in attempt to insult somebody is just not right and is not amusing not atleast for me
IF U WANT A PLACE IN WHICH YOU COULD TROLL ALL YOU WANT THEN MY ADVICE IS GO TO YOUTUBE AND TROLL ALL YOU WANT BUT THIS IS JUST NOT THE PLACE
Im sorry mods to have to do this but it was getting way to annoying and was ruining a perfectly good thread
Please serial killer if u can contribute to the thread then please do other wise just dont write useless garbage
My sincerest apologies again for some offending words 
Regards:
Abdul Bari


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## abaseen99

http://tuku.military.china.com/military/html/2011-08-08/180587_1866254.htm#pic nice pics of j 10b


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## abaseen99

Chengdu Flies Chinese-powered J-10 Fighter
By: David Donald
August 8, 2011
Military Aircraft







Aircraft 1035 is the first J-10 to be seen with the Chinese WS-10 engine since the early prototypes. The engine can be distinguished from the Russian AL-31FN by the profile of the nozzle.

The design institute at Chengdu flew a J-10B development aircraft fitted with the indigenous Shenyang Liming WS-10A Taihang engine at the end of July. All previous J-10s, apart from the first few prototypes, have flown with the Russian AL-31FN engine. The aircraft with the homegrown engine is coded &#8220;1035&#8221; and is presumably the fifth J-10B prototype, although that number may include a ground-test article.
The WS-10 has always been the intended powerplant for the J-10, but problems with its development led to an early switch to the Russian powerplant. The J-10B flight trials suggest that the engine has matured enough to now be considered for a single-engine application. Clearance of the Taihang engine would make the J-10 an &#8220;all-Chinese&#8221; aircraft, available for export without any external restrictions.
Meanwhile, an uncorroborated report of comments attributed to a high-ranking official at the Chengdu facility stated that the J-10B is about to enter production for the Chinese air force, and that the first unit of approximately 10 aircraft (with AL-31FN engines) could be delivered by year-end.
According to this same report, production of the J-10B, which features active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar and a diverterless supersonic intake, would proceed alongside that of the J-10A for some time. Chengdu Flies Chinese-powered J-10 Fighter: AINonline

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## abaseen99

look at the power plant prototype 01 is different from prototype 05


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## Beast

J-10b with aesa will be superior to MKI with BARS(PESA). With j-10B superior RCS and agility. it will eat over MKI easily.

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## pshamim

Good posts above. Some changes in J-10b as compared to J-10A also include:
TVC engine
CFTs
More advanced Radio communication equipment necessitating another anttenna
AESA Radar (Probable) still not confirmed
Optical Tracking system
Laser Range Finder
IRST sensor
Increase in tail above fairing to house Electronic warfare equiment
and of course the DSI inlet
More stealthy

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## SBD-3

pshamim said:


> Good posts above. Some changes in J-10b as compared to J-10A also include:
> TVC engine
> CFTs
> More advanced Radio communication equipment necessitating another anttenna
> AESA Radar (Probable) still not confirmed
> Optical Tracking system
> Laser Range Finder
> IRST sensor
> Increase in tail above fairing to house Electronic warfare equiment
> and of course the DSI inlet
> More stealthy


Sir, as far as TVC is concerned, Russia did sell Chinese about 50 Al-41 TVC capable engines, but these engines were used by chinese in testbeds, there are no news till now for their use in combat operational units. So its likely that J-10B prototypes may be equipped with Al-41F giving them TVC capability but no operation division as per my limited knowledge operates these engines. However, the latest AL-31FN purchased were "modified" I dont know yet whether they were modiefied for TVC as the Rumors have it.

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## siegecrossbow

hasnain0099 said:


> Sir, as far as TVC is concerned, Russia did sell Chinese about 50 Al-41 TVC capable engines, but these engines were used by chinese in testbeds, there are no news till now for their use in combat operational units. So its likely that J-10B prototypes may be equipped with Al-41F giving them TVC capability but no operation division as per my limited knowledge operates these engines. However, the latest AL-31FN purchased were "modified" I dont know yet whether they were modiefied for TVC as the Rumors have it.


 
There is no reason to install TVC on the J-10B. Such features, I believe, are redundant on a single engined light jet and while only add weight to the plane.

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## pshamim

You guys may very well be correct. But sources in Pakistan are talking about them. Wonder what they are hearing is correct or not about TVC

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## lmjiao

pshamim said:


> Good posts above. Some changes in J-10b as compared to J-10A also include:
> TVC engine
> CFTs
> More advanced Radio communication equipment necessitating another anttenna
> AESA Radar (Probable) still not confirmed
> Optical Tracking system
> Laser Range Finder
> IRST sensor
> Increase in tail above fairing to house Electronic warfare equiment
> and of course the DSI inlet
> More stealthy


 
Both WS-10 and AL-31FN have no TVC.


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## Beast

There's lots of Indian paint themselves in Pakistan flag comes in here and mess up. I urged moderator check their ip address according and ban them if they start fool around.

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## MastanKhan

pshamim said:


> You guys may very well be correct. But sources in Pakistan are talking about them. Wonder what they are hearing is correct or not about TVC


 
Pshamim,

The TVC may not need to have a real function---but the psychological effect it would have on the opponents populace would be tremendous---. One should always keep it in perspective that major weapons systems are not to fight wars with---but to make the opponent come to the peace table.

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## pshamim

lmjiao said:


> Both WS-10 and AL-31FN have no TVC.


 
What about WS-10A variant. China was reported to have started mass production after all the tests were carried out. News has been that it will be installed on J-11 and then F-10. This engine was said to have tvc feature.

Can you say with certainity as to which variant of WS-10 engine J10B has?


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## houshanghai

lmjiao said:


> Both WS-10 and AL-31FN have no TVC.


Although not now.
but WS10 will have TVC version in future is what zhangenhe(chief designer of WS10) said recently .
We shall produce such kind of engine, which is doubtless


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## SBD-3

pshamim said:


> What about WS-10A variant. China was reported to have started mass production after all the tests were carried out. News has been that it will be installed on J-11 and then F-10. This engine was said to have tvc feature.
> 
> Can you say with certainity as to which variant of WS-10 engine J10B has?


Speculation is for either WS-10A or B version on the J-10b....but i still wonder why didn't PLAAF gave it any official name yet? J-10*b* doesnt make sense, any news on official designation?


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## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> Pshamim,
> 
> The TVC may not need to have a real function---but the psychological effect it would have on the opponents populace would be tremendous---. One should always keep it in perspective that major weapons systems are not to fight wars with---but to make the opponent come to the peace table.


Mastan sahib, its not psychology but the abiility to lure one's opponent to play by one's rule, this is where FC-20 and JFT are essential, their strenghts and weaknesses are classified and not many outside China and Pakistan know about it, this is the very reason why FC-1 is different from JFT and J-10B will see only exlusive operation. We all talk about Supermanuverbility and TVC and stuff, do you think even a fighter packed with all these goodies can outmanuver a HOBS,advanced, resiliant and TVC equipped missile? why to go for merge and enter a turning fight when your missile can do it way way much better than your platform. where does the manuverbility count when your oppoenet can virtually lock you on in every direction above, below, ahead and behind and feed a missile quickly up your aircraft's @ss.


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## Beast

Overhypiing it without sustance will become a joke instead of psychological effect.

Not only India know nuts about JFT and J-10B. They know nuts about PL-12 BVRAAM. They don't even know what frequency it operate, not to mention jamming them. While china has great experience in R-77 missiles. India astra is no where to be commission. By the time, it complete, other generation of missile has already supercede.

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## Silk

Beast said:


> Overhypiing it without sustance will become a joke instead of psychological effect.
> 
> Not only India know nuts about JFT and J-10B. They know nuts about PL-12 BVRAAM. They don't even know what frequency it operate, not to mention jamming them. While china has great experience in R-77 missiles. India astra is no where to be commission. By the time, it complete, other generation of missile has already supercede.



I think you pretty much said the truth. While China is still being ignored and banned by western economies (because it has or will beat them) it is forced to go its own way. We know the dual use boycot... It has to build copies and then evolve with real Chinese products. See the change in Mig19/21 copies towards JF17/J10 and now J20. We here about Lavi or other bashings but we all can see that they evolve faster then anyone else. That is not an normal achievement but something we all see that we did not see it or expect it in this decade. It has the cash, the knowledge and manpower. At the same time the Indians are shouting from every rooftop that they will build their fighterjets. We all saw what that was. Bad investment and bad products. There is no Indian product that is 100% (maybe 10%) Indian. And even then it is not good enough to compete with others. Indians know that is why it is running to every customer. Billions are thrown out but what will it bring to India? I bet a lot less then what the plans were. It stays dependent. It can not produce decent weapon yet it want to be seen as a worldpower. Now it is nothing more then master buyer from Russia and USA. This will not improve as long as it has a foundation to do it in India.


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## soul hacker



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## Jango

soul hacker said:


>


 
Is that a J-11 in the last picture?, and the patch says sherdil??

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## Mani2020

nuclearpak said:


> Is that a J-11 in the last picture?, and the patch says sherdil??


 
No its a J-10 , and the Sherdil is written on the patch because he is a pilot from Sherdil team, he was there to perform aerobatics along with the other team members during the air show in China

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## siegecrossbow

nuclearpak said:


> Is that a J-11 in the last picture?, and the patch says sherdil??


 
Nope that is a August 1st J-10. I believe the pictures were taken during last year's Zhuhai Airshow.

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## Jango

Thanks Mani2020 and seigecrossbow.

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## Donatello

Let's keep it coming....the good news.


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## soul hacker



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## soul hacker



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## siegecrossbow

houshanghai said:


> Although not now.
> but WS10 will have TVC version in future is what zhangenhe(chief designer of WS10) said recently .
> We shall produce such kind of engine, which is doubtless


 
Do you have a Chinese link for that? I haven't seen it yet.


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## SBD-3

siegecrossbow said:


> Do you have a Chinese link for that? I haven't seen it yet.

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## siegecrossbow

hasnain0099 said:


>


 
I've seen this photograph hundreds of times lol. The reason I asked Houshanghai was because he mentioned that one of WS-10's designers officially stated that they are developing a thrust vectored variant of WS-10. I thought it might be an interesting read.


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## houshanghai

siegecrossbow said:


> I've seen this photograph hundreds of times lol. The reason I asked Houshanghai was because he mentioned that one of WS-10's designers officially stated that they are developing a thrust vectored variant of WS-10. I thought it might be an interesting read.


 
&#20854;&#23454;&#22826;&#34892;&#30690;&#37327;&#26089;&#23601;&#26377;&#20102;&#65292;386&#24403;&#24180;&#30475;&#30340;&#23601;&#26159;&#22826;&#34892;&#30340;&#30690;&#37327;&#21943;&#21475;&#30340;&#22270;&#29255;&#65292;&#21482;&#19981;&#36807;&#20026;&#20102;&#31283;&#23450;&#21152;&#24555;&#36827;&#24230;&#27809;&#26377;&#29992;&#65292;&#22826;&#34892;&#25913;&#26159;&#19977;&#20195;&#21322;&#23601;&#24517;&#39035;&#26377;&#30690;&#37327;&#20102;

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google translate

En and: I think that the following aspects of such a revelation: 
One revelation is to increase the basic research efforts. Our team in basic research and basic theory needed to spend more power points. That is our basic research capabilities to be strengthened, but also enhance the technical reserves. If this does not change, future research will be very difficult, higher level will be very difficult. *"Taihang" engine is a "third generation machine", in order to improve it, based on modifications to further improve the performance level to the "Three and a half," forward, it must be on some new things, with several levels of four generations of new technologies such as: the use of electronic transfer system; equipped with thrust-vectoring nozzle; use tile combustion chamber and so on. These will inevitably require us to look ahead of the new design, new materials, new processes, a great deal of structure, components, technology and other research and testing.* "Taihang" engine developed a whole spent 18 years, and foreign developed an engine model is only about 10 years. Is because the engine of the key technologies we are almost in sync after the model project to go, so also a key to the research. The engine developed by advanced countries, the law is that when the engine model project, many key technologies on the level of pre-made successful, model for the whole project only after the integration. 
The second revelation is to achieve a new machine developed during the hardware production of rapid response. To develop a new engine in several batches, the first production after the design is completed, not only to machine manufactured, but also some parts manufactured, and then were used for a variety of machine testing and component testing; problems exposed modify the design came out, and then cast a group; and then change, then vote in a batch. Now we walk a lot, takes about 2-3 years. In some developed countries, the engine production for only 6-9 months; and we produce a fast one and a half years the engine, slow for two years. A three-year cycle, hardware production accounted for two years too long. If the hardware can shorten production cycle, "Taihang" engine will be developed in advance. 
Implications of the three engines is to make unremitting efforts to strengthen the development of qualified personnel. Although there has been now been "Taihang" develop training of technical personnel, but not enough. Engaged in engine development, people are the first important, no one, nothing can be done. From our situation, the absolute number of small technical staff in the whole of the proportion of employees less, the engine can not meet the requirements of the new situation developed, should further strengthen the team. Moreover, the technical research tasks undertaken by heavy, dry day and night, no time for systematic study and further studies. Leaders at all levels should actively create conditions to allow technical staff to further re-education, continued charging, the ability to achieve technological upgrading, so as to ensure that the team take a leading role in the future to create better results. 


&#36824;&#26377;&#36825;&#31687;&#20843;&#32929;&#65306;


&#20197;&#33322;&#31354;&#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#30340;&#23614;&#21943;&#31649;&#20026;&#20363;&#65292;&#20960;&#21313;&#24180;&#26469;&#23614;&#21943;&#31649;&#37319;&#29992;&#20102;&#22823;&#37327;&#20808;&#36827;&#30340;&#32467;&#26500;&#35774;&#35745;&#12290;&#24050;&#32463;&#20174;&#19968;&#31181;&#31616;&#21333;&#30340;&#28909;&#25490;&#27668;&#25910;&#32553;&#31649;&#36947;&#65292;&#28436;&#21464;&#25104;&#22312;&#29616;&#20195;&#39134;&#26426;&#35774;&#35745;&#20013;&#19968;&#31181;&#21487;&#21464;&#20960;&#20309;&#24418;&#29366;&#21644;&#21487;&#23454;&#29616;&#22810;&#31181;&#20219;&#21153;&#30340;&#38750;&#24120;&#22797;&#26434;&#30340;&#37096;&#20214;&#12290;*&#26032;&#30340;&#20219;&#21153;&#21253;&#25324;&#25511;&#21046;&#25512;&#21147;&#22823;&#23567;&#12289;&#23454;&#29616;&#21453;&#25512;&#21147;&#12289;&#23454;&#29616;&#30690;&#37327;&#25512;&#21147;&#12289;&#25233;&#21046;&#22122;&#22768;&#21644;&#32418;&#22806;&#36752;&#23556;&#31561;&#12290;&#20026;&#20102;&#36798;&#21040;&#36825;&#20123;&#30446;&#30340;&#65292;&#24517;&#39035;&#22312;&#21943;&#31649;&#20919;&#21364;&#12289;&#39537;&#21160;&#21644;&#21046;&#36896;&#26041;&#38754;&#26377;&#25152;&#36827;&#23637;&#12290;*

http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2011-07/29/c_121738269_2.htm

Reactions: Like Like:
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## MastanKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> Mastan sahib, its not psychology but the abiility to lure one's opponent to play by one's rule, this is where FC-20 and JFT are essential, their strenghts and weaknesses are classified and not many outside China and Pakistan know about it, this is the very reason why FC-1 is different from JFT and J-10B will see only exlusive operation. We all talk about Supermanuverbility and TVC and stuff, do you think even a fighter packed with all these goodies can outmanuver a HOBS,advanced, resiliant and TVC equipped missile? why to go for merge and enter a turning fight when your missile can do it way way much better than your platform. where does the manuverbility count when your oppoenet can virtually lock you on in every direction above, below, ahead and behind and feed a missile quickly up your aircraft's @ss.


 
Hasnain,

In this day and age of technology----it is very easy to simulate and find the capabilities of an opponents aircraft by capable aeronautical engineers with the right computer programming. A higher calibre engineer can just look at the aircraft design and engine capacity and tell you what it can do within what parameters.

When we use the term 'lure somebody into doing something'----to me it cheapens the things---there is no luring from our side----as a matter of fact---we are being lured into spending more than what we can afford to----.

TVC is showboating and nothing more---it cannot out smart 21st century missiles.


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## Drawn_Sword_of_God

hey guys im little "late" in this thread but how is the j-10 compared to the f16 we currently have and when will the j-10s be delivered to paf?


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## epinephrine

j 10 has better radar (aesa) irst ,reduced rcs.f-16 is better then j10 in everything else.


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## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> Hasnain,
> 
> In this day and age of technology----it is very easy to simulate and find the capabilities of an opponents aircraft by capable aeronautical engineers with the right computer programming. A higher calibre engineer can just look at the aircraft design and engine capacity and tell you what it can do within what parameters.
> 
> When we use the term 'lure somebody into doing something'----to me it cheapens the things---there is no luring from our side----as a matter of fact---we are being lured into spending more than what we can afford to----.
> 
> TVC is showboating and nothing more---it cannot out smart 21st century missiles.


 
Indeed, you cannot out turn missiles that can turn at 20Gs, but TVC might help with dog fights.....though it is a long time since we saw any.

India Pakistan air war would greatly depend on pre-emptive strikes and the one who can take out the fighters while they are still on ground.


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## Xracer

well if we see J10as Yes But J10bs are Better Then f16 even better then their block60


epinephrine said:


> j 10 has better radar (aesa) irst ,reduced rcs.f-16 is better then j10 in everything else.


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## pshamim

penumbra said:


> Indeed, you cannot out turn missiles that can turn at 20Gs, but TVC might help with dog fights.....though it is a long time since we saw any.
> 
> India Pakistan air war would greatly depend on pre-emptive strikes and the one who can take out the fighters while they are still on ground.


 
I may plead your pardon but must say that though the success rate of a BVR missiles are excellent, they are not 100%. It is a misconception that just firing BVR is enough to shoot down the target bogey.

How successful a BVR will be depends on the distance between the two aircrafts and how manuveourable the target aircraft is. that is where the TVC comes. It allows the aircraft many more 2D maneuveres that can protect it from the incoming missile.

For combat pilots it is a great tool. But for others it may be just a toy. Nothing could be further from the truth.


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## pshamim

MastanKhan said:


> Hasnain,
> 
> In this day and age of technology----it is very easy to simulate and find the capabilities of an opponents aircraft by capable aeronautical engineers with the right computer programming. A higher calibre engineer can just look at the aircraft design and engine capacity and tell you what it can do within what parameters.
> 
> 
> When we use the term 'lure somebody into doing something'----to me it cheapens the things---there is no luring from our side----as a matter of fact---we are being lured into spending more than what we can afford to----.
> 
> TVC is showboating and nothing more---it cannot out smart 21st century missiles.


 
Khan Saheb, You are one of my most favorite posters here on this forum. I may not have any qualm with the political segment but last lines do not make any sense.


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## IceCold

pshamim said:


> I may plead your pardon but must say that though the success rate of a BVR missiles are excellent, they are not 100%. It is a misconception that just firing BVR is enough to shoot down the target bogey.
> 
> How successful a BVR will be depends on the distance between the two aircrafts and how manuveourable the target aircraft is. that is where the TVC comes. It allows the aircraft many more 2D maneuveres that can protect it from the incoming missile.
> 
> For combat pilots it is a great tool. But for others it may be just a toy. Nothing could be further from the truth.


 
Sir how likely it is for the target aircraft to outmaneuver a bvr missile once the target seeker locks on to the plane itself? The speed through which both aircrafts would be coming towards each other, is it safe to assume that each will get only one BVR shot before they lock on too WVR combat?


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## pshamim

IceCold said:


> Sir how likely it is for the target aircraft to outmaneuver a bvr missile once the target seeker locks on to the plane itself? The speed through which both aircrafts would be coming towards each other, is it safe to assume that each will get only one BVR shot before they lock on too WVR combat?


 
There are ways to evade a missile which is locked on you. High "G" or crank turns is one maneuver that can be employed. This will cause the enemy missile to fly further and it may bleed out. You can also employ "F" pole maneuver. A good TVC engine will enhance maneuverability of your aircraft.

There are several aspects of the use of BVR. You try to avoid this kind of engagement in a crowd where it may kill one of your friends, 1 vs1 is a better chice. ROE will also also dictate type of engagements.

It is a very huge subject to discuss. ROEs will differ from situation to situation.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## siegecrossbow

IceCold said:


> Sir how likely it is for the target aircraft to outmaneuver a bvr missile once the target seeker locks on to the plane itself? The speed through which both aircrafts would be coming towards each other, is it safe to assume that each will get only one BVR shot before they lock on too WVR combat?


 
I think WVR combat will come in handy when the two air forces in question are closely matched with one another.


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## Pak1Samurai

in onother thread i have seen that Pakistan's participation in research and development of J-10B
WHAT YOU GUYS THINKS ABOUT THIS ?


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## Battle Axe

Pak1Samurai said:


> in onother thread i have seen that Pakistan's participation in research and development of J-10B
> WHAT YOU GUYS THINKS ABOUT THIS ?


 

Any credible source, is yet to confirm that...


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## Pak1Samurai

Battle Axe said:


> Any credible source yet to confirm that...


bro if i have credible source so i dont asked here  maybe some chini brothers have something to say about this


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## Battle Axe

Pak1Samurai said:


> bro if i have credible source so i dont asked here  maybe some chini brothers have something to say about this


 

Sir, I meant that any credible source, is yet to confirm that. I missed 'is'!

Smiles!


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## Battle Axe

pshamim said:


> There are ways to evade a missile which is locked on you. High "G" or crank turns is one maneuver that can be employed. This will cause the enemy missile to fly further and it may bleed out. You can also employ "F" pole maneuver. A good TVC engine will enhance maneuverability of your aircraft.
> 
> There are several aspects of the use of BVR. You try to avoid this kind of engagement in a crowd where it may kill one of your friends, 1 vs1 is a better chice. ROE will also also dictate type of engagements.
> 
> It is a very huge subject to discuss. ROEs will differ from situation to situation.


 

Sir, does than mean, an adversary in numbers, will avoid BVRs when his mates are dispersed...

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Battle Axe

Xracer said:


> well if we see J10as Yes But J10bs are Better Then f16 even better then their block60


 

Sir, Block 60 is one super cool bird, please...

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Pak1Samurai

ONE CHINI BROTHER POSTED THIS ON OTHER THREAD



Pakistan's participation in research and development of J-10B 
I just saw a message: Pakistan involved in the J-10B research and development. 
Although I can not determine: but according to my guess, 80 percent of the possibility of Pakistani involvement of the J-10B research and development. 
I have the following evidence: 
1, JF-17 Pakistan has mastered all the production technology, and has produced more than its own aircraft JF-17. 
2, according to the chief architect of China disclosed JF-17: The latest version of the JF-17 uses a lot of J-10's proven technology. It can be inferred: the latest version of the JF-17 will certainly be produced in Pakistan, then the J-10 technology will certainly be the development of personnel in Pakistan. 
3, J-10B's first customer in Pakistan, this has been determined. Pakistan, a permanent working group in the CAC group. 
4, the J-10B has been sold to Pakistan, the Pakistan Air Force is certainly full of stereotypes in the work of J-10B 
5, according to the special relationship between Pakistan and China, J-10B likely future production in Pakistan, then Pakistan's participation in the development of J-10B is entirely possible. 
Therefore, I believe this news is true.

Source: (see last paragraph)http://www.zgjunshi.com/Article/Clas...7130318_8.html







Pakistan's internal staff to add a message: (can confirm that Pakistan is indeed involved in the development of J-10B)

A few weeks ago, I showed the leaked pics to some PAF personal and they agreed that top brass of PAF has always known of this project and the pictures are indeed the J-20 . However, like all Pakistani acquisations, we are NOT interested in J-20 as it is. China is where the Stealth 5th generation MRCA will be bought from but that wont exactly be J-20.
The way PAF deals with and has always delath with Chinese manufacturers (JF-17s are exception) is that we let them present what they have.
Eaxmples: F-7MG --> F-7PG (Chinese couldnt come up with avionics so we bought it from theird party back when sun used to shine well in west for PAF)
For many reasons, including sales of J-10. Any plane operating with PAF is a free marketing for Chinese companies (I was so proud of it when an AVIC personal said it to me in the presence of PAF personal that the world trusts PAFs standards).
Chinese want to see J-10B in considerable number before even offering J-20. The money + interest of Chinese companies is in NOT offering Pakistan J-20 unless J-10B is flying with PAF in number.
My info on this is, Chinese clearly denied to do anything with J-10 unless the orders of F-16s are cut down. PAF did burn their boats after agreeing to it (I am glad they did. Thanks Allah for that) and sent thier team for a long tern partnership with China (Currently located in Chingdu). It was only after then that the Chinese let in PAF/PAC engineers tweak with J-10s and we saw the J-10B.
Time line for J-20 in small batch can easily be after 2016 and only then PAF might be invited to jump inThis 



message was released in January, when, the Chinese J-20 just released soon.​


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## pshamim

Battle Axe said:


> Sir, does than mean, an adversary in numbers, will avoid BVRs when his mates are dispersed...



There are many complexities in ensuring that you only shoot your enemy and not your friendlies. Various tactics, procedures supported by electronics are usually employed to ensure it. You need to identify what you are pitched against to change your tactics. there are times when you need to avoid the BVR and lure your enemy into the "Furball" and use yoyr SRAAM.

But if you identify that the adversary is a non BVR platform then you keep him away by using BVR and he has no defence. Of course the tactics by your wingman and other friendlies need to be coordinated carefully when employing the BVR option in a crowded situation.

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## razgriz19

Xracer said:


> well if we see J10as Yes But J10bs are Better Then f16 even better then their block60


 
no, block 60 are wayy better than J-10A or B.
everything about that aircraft is perfect, it even uses higher thrust engines. most powerful ever built for f-16s.
everything that J-10B has, Block 60 also has it and on top of that its a proven platform!


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## pshamim

houshanghai said:


> &#20854;&#23454;&#22826;&#34892;&#30690;&#37327;&#26089;&#23601;&#26377;&#20102;&#65292;386&#24403;&#24180;&#30475;&#30340;&#23601;&#26159;&#22826;&#34892;&#30340;&#30690;&#37327;&#21943;&#21475;&#30340;&#
> 
> &#12288;&#24352;&#24681;&#21644;&#65306;&#25105;&#35273;&#24471;&#26377;&#20197;&#19979;&#36825;&#20040;&#20960;&#20010;&#26041;&#38754;&#30340;&#21551;&#31034;&#65306;
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> 
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> 
> En and: I think that the following aspects of such a revelation:
> One revelation is to increase the basic research efforts. Our team in basic research and basic theory needed to spend more power points. That is our basic research capabilities to be strengthened, but also enhance the technical reserves. If this does not change, future research will be very difficult, higher level will be very difficult. *"Taihang" engine is a "third generation machine", in order to improve it, based on modifications to further improve the performance level to the "Three and a half," forward, it must be on some new things, with several levels of four generations of new technologies such as: the use of electronic transfer system; equipped with thrust-vectoring nozzle; use tile combustion chamber and so on. These will inevitably require us to look ahead of the new design, new materials, new processes, a great deal of structure, components, technology and other research and testing.* "Taihang" engine developed a whole spent 18 years, and foreign developed an engine model is only about 10 years. Is because the engine of the key technologies we are almost in sync after the model project to go, so also a key to the research. The engine developed by advanced countries, the law is that when the engine model project, many key technologies on the level of pre-made successful, model for the whole project only after the integration.
> The second revelation is to achieve a new machine developed during the hardware production of rapid response. To develop a new engine in several batches, the first production after the design is completed, not only to machine manufactured, but also some parts manufactured, and then were used for a variety of machine testing and component testing; problems exposed modify the design came out, and then cast a group; and then change, then vote in a batch. Now we walk a lot, takes about 2-3 years. In some developed countries, the engine production for only 6-9 months; and we produce a fast one and a half years the engine, slow for two years. A three-year cycle, hardware production accounted for two years too long. If the hardware can shorten production cycle, "Taihang" engine will be developed in advance.
> Implications of the three engines is to make unremitting efforts to strengthen the development of qualified personnel. Although there has been now been "Taihang" develop training of technical personnel, but not enough. Engaged in engine development, people are the first important, no one, nothing can be done. From our situation, the absolute number of small technical staff in the whole of the proportion of employees less, the engine can not meet the requirements of the new situation developed, should further strengthen the team. Moreover, the technical research tasks undertaken by heavy, dry day and night, no time for systematic study and further studies. Leaders at all levels should actively create conditions to allow technical staff to further re-education, continued charging, the ability to achieve technological upgrading, so as to ensure that the team take a leading role in the future to create better results.
> 
> 
> &#36824;&#26377;&#36825;&#31687;&#20843;&#32929;&#65306;
> 
> 
> &#20197;&#33322;&#31354;&#21457;&#21160;&#26426;&#30340;&#23614;&#21943;&#31649;&#20026;&#20363;&#65292;&#20960;&#21313;&#24180;&#26469;&#23614;&#21943;&#31649;&#37319;&#29992;&#20102;&#22823;&#37327;&#20808;&#36827;&#30340;&#32467;&#26500;&#35774;&#35745;&#12290;&#24050;&#32463;&#20174;&#19968;&#31181;&#31616;&#21333;&#30340;&#28909;&#25490;&#27668;&#25910;&#32553;&#31649;&#36947;&#65292;&#28436;&#21464;&#25104;&#22312;&#29616;&#20195;&#39134;&#26426;&#35774;&#35745;&#20013;&#19968;&#31181;&#21487;&#21464;&#20960;&#20309;&#24418;&#29366;&#21644;&#21487;&#23454;&#29616;&#22810;&#31181;&#20219;&#21153;&#30340;&#38750;&#24120;&#22797;&#26434;&#30340;&#37096;&#20214;&#12290;*&#26032;&#30340;&#20219;&#21153;&#21253;&#25324;&#25511;&#21046;&#25512;&#21147;&#22823;&#23567;&#12289;&#23454;&#29616;&#21453;&#25512;&#21147;&#12289;&#23454;&#29616;&#30690;&#37327;&#25512;&#21147;&#12289;&#25233;&#21046;&#22122;&#22768;&#21644;&#32418;&#22806;&#36752;&#23556;&#31561;&#12290;&#20026;&#20102;&#36798;&#21040;&#36825;&#20123;&#30446;&#30340;&#65292;&#24517;&#39035;&#22312;&#21943;&#31649;&#20919;&#21364;&#12289;&#39537;&#21160;&#21644;&#21046;&#36896;&#26041;&#38754;&#26377;&#25152;&#36827;&#23637;&#12290;*
> 
> ????????????????_????_???


 
Thanks Houshangai for this post. I also thank you for pictures of J-10B with WS-10A engine. This particular engine is said to possess TVC.
Regards

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## SomeGuy

razgriz19 said:


> no, block 60 are wayy better than J-10A or B.
> everything about that aircraft is perfect, it even uses higher thrust engines. most powerful ever built for f-16s.
> everything that J-10B has, Block 60 also has it and on top of that its a proven platform!


 
J-10B is said to be equivalent to block 60s.

I also read somewhere that due to the different designs of the airframes, the J-10 and F-16 have advantages in different areas of engagement: The F-16 having the advantage in low altitude, subsonic arena and J-10 having the advantage in high altitude, supersonic arena.

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## epinephrine

j 10 is not combat proven n f-16 is one of the most reliable jet but for paf j 10 will prove far better then f 16 as we can use it according to our wishes


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## muse

By that logic, neither is F22 and F35 - is the F16 better than those as well, you know, since it's "battle proven"?

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## razgriz19

muse said:


> By that logic, neither is F22 and F35 - is the F16 better than those as well, you know, since it's "battle proven"?


 
battle proven was just ONE point that i mentioned..
Block 60 is a very capable aircraft, and definetly is better than J-10B. 
the payload it can carry is very diverse, it can basically carry any weapon that USAF has in its arsenal...
with more powerful engine and radar, it is one of the deadliest aircraft!


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## Beast

razgriz19 said:


> no, block 60 are wayy better than J-10A or B.
> everything about that aircraft is perfect, it even uses higher thrust engines. most powerful ever built for f-16s.
> everything that J-10B has, Block 60 also has it and on top of that its a proven platform!


 
I don't know where you get the facts f-16 block 60 is way better than j-10b? Basically block 60 is just an old f-16 frame fit with a not that dated AESA and powerful engine. While j-10b is a 4.5th gen airframe. RCS of J-10b is way better than any F-16. The canard, delta wing design gives it high agility while good range without CFT. The AESA on J-10B is the latest from China possibility from J-20 design.

F-22 also unproven design so it's inferior to block 60?

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## epinephrine

but u can search abt the performance of raptors against f-16s n f-15s in various exercises.it proved to be far superior to US legacy fighters.


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## Manticore

SomeGuy said:


> J-10B is said to be equivalent to block 60s.
> 
> I also read somewhere that due to the different designs of the airframes, the J-10 and F-16 have advantages in different areas of engagement: The F-16 having the advantage in low altitude, subsonic arena and J-10 having the advantage in high altitude, supersonic arena.


 
JF-17s would not only allow PAF to counter numbers, but also allow her to maintain larger numbers of FC-20s and F-16s for war-time and lower their depreciation - providing a low cost training aircraft to fly liberally during peacetime. This would be a similar arrangement to how the Israeli Air Force uses F-16s to keep meet the flight time allocations of its F-15 pilots.


The F-16 has also been adding weight over time and attempting to counterbalance this with increased engine thrust. However, since wing area remained the same, maneuverability has been sacrificed. Higher wing loading is particularly detrimental for higher altitude maneuverability. The J-10 on the other hand, has all the wing area it could ever need with a delta canard layout.

The newer block F-16s however, are great for low altitude air-to-ground missions. The high wing loading favors low fliers and the moderate wing sweep helps handling at lower speeds often necessary during ordnance delivery. The J-10 is thus not ideal for the CAS role. However, because of the range and payload advantages, the J-10 can be considered an effective deep striker. CAS was never a pressing need for the PLAAF, and the PAF has the JF-17 which is ideal for that role.''
Grande Strategy

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## SBD-3

razgriz19 said:


> no, block 60 are wayy better than J-10A or B.
> everything about that aircraft is perfect, it even uses higher thrust engines. most powerful ever built for f-16s.
> everything that J-10B has, Block 60 also has it and on top of that its a proven platform!


Who's superior and who'z not, would be only proven by a series of one-on-one duels. But interms of capabilities, Block 60 is a very verstile aircraft, carries an operational AESA from the leading AESA manufacturer (NRG), has the range and not to mention the stand off strike capability. Whats the negative is that while designing, the weight addition by AESA and other technologies have not been compensated by reduction in airframe's weight. This warrented the need for a more powerful engine adding to the costs. I was reading that tyre bursts are common for Block 60 while landing, virtue of heavy weight. On the other hand, we yet dont know what weapons J-10B will be able to carry out, however, according to different reads on the platform, though Multirole (MR) capability has been enhanced, the foucus has remained on air superiority, thus an underscore viz a viz block 60 in MR capabilities. The positive is that the weight addition of new tech in J-10B has been compensated by reducing the platform's weight via composites and DSI, so the need for a more powerful engine was eliminated, saving costs, that is very reason we see J-10B operating the same engine as the J-10A. So interms of MR i think Bl 60 has an edge, for ASup J-10B has the edge and for structure both are roughly the same but J-10B is more economical than block 60

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## ANG

Hi, I wanted to add one more point in regards to thrust-vectoring control (TVC) on an engine, in a post made by Mr. MK. In it he mentioned that TVC was "show boating".

I would tend to agree with that statement. While TVC looks cools and allows a pilot to pull off cool air show moves like the Cobra maneuver, in a dog-fight it is probably of limited use.

I clearly remember reading an article by Air Forces Monthly a few years back, that in a study by the USAF, it was shown that having high-off boresight AAM capability was far more powerful than having TVC engines.

Also the cost of maintaining a TVC engine would also be higher than a regular engine.


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## Beast

epinephrine said:


> but u can search abt the performance of raptors against f-16s n f-15s in various exercises.it proved to be far superior to US legacy fighters.


 
You can search about j-10A performance against su-27 conducted by plaaf. 5 kill of them without a single loss in various exercise. It proved far superior to the Russia legacy fighter.

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## razgriz19

hasnain0099 said:


> Who's superior and who'z not, would be only proven by a series of one-on-one duels. But interms of capabilities, Block 60 is a very verstile aircraft, carries an operational AESA from the leading AESA manufacturer (NRG), has the range and not to mention the stand off strike capability. Whats the negative is that while designing, the weight addition by AESA and other technologies have not been compensated by reduction in airframe's weight. This warrented the need for a more powerful engine adding to the costs. I was reading that tyre bursts are common for Block 60 while landing, virtue of heavy weight. On the other hand, we yet dont know what weapons J-10B will be able to carry out, however, according to different reads on the platform, though Multirole (MR) capability has been enhanced, the foucus has remained on air superiority, thus an underscore viz a viz block 60 in MR capabilities. The positive is that the weight addition of new tech in J-10B has been compensated by reducing the platform's weight via composites and DSI, so the need for a more powerful engine was eliminated, saving costs, that is very reason we see J-10B operating the same engine as the J-10A. So interms of MR i think Bl 60 has an edge, for ASup J-10B has the edge and for structure both are roughly the same but J-10B is more economical than block 60


 
now thats the kind of response i was looking for..
everyone else seems to be stuck on one my comment about f-16 being battle proven.
and the points u raised, based on those points i was assessing falcon over J-10B. having an operational AESA radar, stand off weapons, ability to accomodate future US weapons, and many more things.
like you said, J-10B has also many different advantages and in some cases it has equivelant or better equipment than blk 60.
but overall i think Block 60 is better.....but thats just my opinion.


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## siegecrossbow

Beast said:


> You can search about j-10A performance against su-27 conducted by plaaf. 5 kill of them without a single loss in various exercise. It proved far superior to the Russia legacy fighter.


 
Older Su-27s were disadvantaged by their avionics. Goes to show that superior avionics and radar could make a huge difference in combat.

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## alimobin memon

first of all flankers aren't good for dogfight against multirole single engine small size fighters


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## SBD-3

alimobin memon said:


> first of all flankers aren't good for dogfight against multirole single engine small size fighters


Dont make claims which you can not substantiate

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## Beast

hasnain0099 said:


> Dont make claims which you can not substantiate


 
Precisely, flanker has great agility and in fact is a good dog
Fighter... But it's huge size did put it at disadvantage during dogfight against smaller fighter. It's easier to eyeball a huge flanker than a small J-7 fighter during confusing twist and turn of dogfighting....

But that is not the point. J-10 definitely can out turn a flanker or F-16 in High sPeed, High attitude chase...

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## houshanghai

J10B with WS10B

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## rAli

xie xie houshanghai, for the great pics!

Do you thing WS-10B has TVC, if we think of the engine nozzle to be of three parts from outer edge to the planes body (the petals, outer ring and then inner ring). The outer ring seems to have a curve that could be a dual axis TVC? sorry for making up the terms pretty sure there are proper names for these components.


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## houshanghai

rAli said:


> xie xie houshanghai, for the great pics!
> 
> Do you thing WS-10B has TVC, if we think of the engine nozzle to be of three parts from outer edge to the planes body (the petals, outer ring and then inner ring). The outer ring seems to have a curve that could be a dual axis TVC? sorry for making up the terms pretty sure there are proper names for these components.


 sorry,sir
i only know WS10 engine must have TVC version in future.
but ,is there a TVC nozzle in the current WS10B ?I am not sure.

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## Donatello

Why do they have to use a drag chute to slow the plane down? Doesn't it increase the turn around time?


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## SQ8

penumbra said:


> Why do they have to use a drag chute to slow the plane down? Doesn't it increase the turn around time?


 
Reduces wear on the tires and brakes..Which arent exactly cheap.

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## S10

razgriz19 said:


> no, block 60 are wayy better than J-10A or B.
> everything about that aircraft is perfect, it even uses higher thrust engines. most powerful ever built for f-16s.
> *everything that J-10B has, Block 60 also has it and on top of that its a proven platform*!


You are aware of every sub-systems onboard J-10B? Man, CAC needs to tighten up their security...or maybe that's just a statement without evidence on your part.



razgriz19 said:


> battle proven was just ONE point that i mentioned..
> *Block 60 is a very capable aircraft, and definetly is better than J-10B.*
> the payload it can carry is very diverse, it can basically carry any weapon that USAF has in its arsenal...
> with more powerful engine and radar, it is one of the deadliest aircraft!


Heh. Since Block 30, F-16 has been losing its kinematic advantage. With each new block, more weight had been added. Engine thrust is not the only factor in determining instantaneous manoevurability. The other half has to do with wing loading. With added weight and higher wing loading, Block 60 is slower than Block 30 in climb and turn rates. If radar was the sole determining factor, then we'd be seeing AWACS loaded with missiles.

Without knowing how J-10B performs, you sure seem to draw along of conclusions out of nothing.

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## Beast

S10 said:


> You are aware of every sub-systems onboard J-10B? Man, CAC needs to tighten up their security...or maybe that's just a statement without evidence on your part.
> 
> 
> Heh. Since Block 30, F-16 has been losing its kinematic advantage. With each new block, more weight had been added. Engine thrust is not the only factor in determining instantaneous manoevurability. The other half has to do with wing loading. With added weight and higher wing loading, Block 60 is slower than Block 30 in climb and turn rates. If radar was the sole determining factor, then we'd be seeing AWACS loaded with missiles.
> 
> Without knowing how J-10B performs, you sure seem to draw along of conclusions out of nothing.



Fully agree with you. I don't know why some Pakistan member is so obsess with American thing? Any strong empire will fall, new empire wil rise. Better things will come out and overtake others.

America is an enemy of Pakistan. No more dream of getting more American things, please.

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## krash

penumbra said:


> Why do they have to use a drag chute to slow the plane down? Doesn't it increase the turn around time?


 
Adding to what Santro said the chutes come in cartridges. No need to fold up the recently used chute to put it back in. Just take out the last cartridge and replace it with a new one and you have a ready to use drag chute quicker than the pilot is back from his bathroom break.


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## SBD-3

houshanghai said:


> sorry,sir
> i only know WS10 engine must have TVC version in future.
> but ,is there a TVC nozzle in the current WS10B ?I am not sure.


Apparently does not seems to have a TVC nozzle. WS-10G is expected to have TVC....

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## SBD-3

S10 said:


> You are aware of every sub-systems onboard J-10B? Man, CAC needs to tighten up their security...or maybe that's just a statement without evidence on your part.
> 
> 
> Heh. Since Block 30, F-16 has been losing its kinematic advantage. With each new block, more weight had been added. Engine thrust is not the only factor in determining instantaneous manoevurability. The other half has to do with wing loading. With added weight and higher wing loading, Block 60 is slower than Block 30 in climb and turn rates. If radar was the sole determining factor, then we'd be seeing AWACS loaded with missiles.
> 
> Without knowing how J-10B performs, you sure seem to draw along of conclusions out of nothing.


 
Two notable things here
1- We neither have the complete information about Bl-60 systems nor we had any information about J-10B. Yet a statement can be made with reasonable certainty that Block 60 system are relatively more matured than J-10B systems. While Block 60 will have certain advantages based on its system, J-10B will have its own.
2- Both fighters belong to different concept designs while J-10B is more suitable for Supersonic manuvering (thanks Canards) and tighter turn rates at supersonic speeds (thanks delta wings).The drag created by delta is enormous and subsonic performance is disturbed. Falcon's conventional design is agile at subsonic and trans-sonic maneuverability, but lacks the same at supersonic speeds. so Falcon is ideal for low level engagements,A2G,AShR,WW roles. J-10B is ideal for high speed interceptions,Escorts,Strike, Stand off delivery,Precision attack and air superiority.

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

hasnain0099 said:


> Two notable things here
> 1- We neither have the complete information about Bl-60 systems nor we had any information about J-10B. Yet a statement can be made with reasonable certainty that Block 60 system are relatively more matured than J-10B systems. While Block 60 will have certain advantages based on its system, J-10B will have its own.
> 2- Both fighters belong to different concept designs while J-10B is more suitable for Supersonic manuvering (thanks Canards) and tighter turn rates at supersonic speeds (thanks delta wings).The drag created by delta is enormous and subsonic performance is disturbed. Falcon's conventional design is agile at subsonic and trans-sonic maneuverability, but lacks the same at supersonic speeds. so Falcon is ideal for low level engagements,A2G,AShR,WW roles. J-10B is ideal for high speed interceptions,Escorts,Strike, Stand off delivery,Precision attack and air superiority.


 
well said...
concise information.....
our block 52 are suitable for us and j-10 will augment our air defence


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## Sanchez

Folks, if J-10B were not in the same league as F-16 bl60, Typhoon and Rafale, what's the point to have it? J-10b has an AESA of over 1100 T/R modules, updated avionics and a standard engine of 132kn (FWS10B, maybe later changed to FWS10G with 145kn). I think that it would depend on the skills and experience of a pilot to maximize the performance of these machines. My 2 cents...

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## houshanghai

j10 phasic variation







ws10b nozzle contracted

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## Manticore

hopefully the j10b employ any of the quasi-stealth technologies that its European counterparts use 

(EF - signature management, Rafale - frequency mimicking (reportedly), Gripen - wolf pack silent attack based on its superior data link)

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## Dazzler

from what i know, J-10B has enhanced, near fifth gen EW and many sub-systems incorporated initially in it for testing purposes for J-20. If these systems are a standard on J-10b then there goes the superiority of European fighters!

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## marcos98

*Some old pics:*

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## SBD-3

My fav pic of J-10 till now, makes a perfect wallpaper


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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...123818-j-10-fighter-photos-videos-thread.html

this thread would be a treat for j10 lovers


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## SBD-3

ANTIBODY said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...123818-j-10-fighter-photos-videos-thread.html
> 
> this thread would be a treat for j10 lovers


Pardon me, i was overwhelmed

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## [--Leo--]

1: Does J-10B Have Supercruise Engine
2: Could it be RCS like typhoon
3: Stealthy nozzles ?

We knows it is comparable with F-16 Block 60,Su-35,typhoon,Rafale But FC-20 have any Advantage over these fighter
I think J-10B is My Fav i wonder when PAF gona operate it Because J-10A is Already 4.5 Gen But After Upgrading it can be almost 5th Gen 

Thanks

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## SBD-3

[--Leo--];2030426 said:


> 1: Does J-10B Have Supercruise Engine
> 2: Could it be RCS like typhoon
> 3: Stealthy nozzles ?
> 
> We knows it is comparable with F-16 Block 60,Su-35,typhoon,Rafale But FC-20 have any Advantage over these fighter
> I think J-10B is My Fav i wonder when PAF gona operate it Because J-10A is Already 4.5 Gen But After Upgrading it can be almost 5th Gen
> 
> Thanks


 1- SC, not sure......
2-TVC, Likely, but not a necessity amid growing weapons sophistication
3-Stealthy nozzels?  do you mean heat signature reduction? if you do then no, but with advanced HMS and irfa-optical seekers being in use, this advantage is of no use, if it exists. 
J-10B has AESA while none of these fighters till date (except block 60 or may be su-35) has operational AESA in place. J-10B's AESA is more potent than Block 60's containing 1000TRMs and equal to JSF's AESA. Secondly J-10B is expected to come with serious sensor fusion, much more than on any of its contenders.


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## S10

According to CAC insider sources, J-10B is not the final evolution of J-10 series. There is one more upgrade down the road.

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## PWFI

S10 said:


> According to CAC insider sources, J-10B is not the final evolution of J-10 series. There is one more upgrade down the road.


 
WICHe ONE BRO?


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## SBD-3

PWFI said:


> WICHe ONE BRO?


 
I suspect Super Ten....or J-10C as per speculation....Some people were saying CAC dumped it when J-20 made its flight, but latest rumor had it that CAC has restarted the work on that particular variant.

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## Areesh

hasnain0099 said:


> I suspect Super Ten....or J-10C as per speculation....Some people were saying CAC dumped it when J-20 made its flight, but latest rumor had it that CAC has restarted the work on that particular variant.


 
Isn't J10C carrier version of J-10?


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## abdulbarijan

hasnain0099 said:


> 1- SC, not sure......
> 2-TVC, Likely, but not a necessity amid growing weapons sophistication
> 3-Stealthy nozzels?  do you mean heat signature reduction? if you do then no, but with advanced HMS and irfa-optical seekers being in use, this advantage is of no use, if it exists.
> *J-10B has AESA while none of these fighters till date (except block 60 or may be su-35) has operational AESA in place. J-10B's AESA is more potent than Block 60's containing 1000TRMs and equal to JSF's AESA. *Secondly J-10B is expected to come with serious sensor fusion, much more than on any of its contenders.


that is one serious statement bro,however i would like to know that how do u rate AESA's like AESA A is better than AESA B....just on the basis of the amount of T/R modules used in the AESA or are there other factors involved,if other factors are involved please discuss them considering J-10B's AESA against JSF's AESA

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## Dil Pakistan

Is J10B likely to get the naval role in PAF ? i.e. replacing current Mirages !!!


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## [--Leo--]

Dil Pakistan said:


> Is J10B likely to get the naval role in PAF ? i.e. replacing current Mirages !!!



Sorry to say but i don,t think so PAF is looking for J-11 H Which is naval version but not finalized


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## SBD-3

abdulbarijan said:


> that is one serious statement bro,however i would like to know that how do u rate AESA's like AESA A is better than AESA B....just on the basis of the amount of T/R modules used in the AESA or are there other factors involved,if other factors are involved please discuss them considering J-10B's AESA against JSF's AESA


Of course other factors are also important I am not downplaying them, yet the number of TR modules do give a fair hint of sophistication of AESA since these modules serve as the core of AESA operations, transmit and receive signals. The greater the TRMs, the greater the capability (not necessarily range) and effectiveness of AESA


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## Mani2020

hasnain0099 said:


> Of course other factors are also important I am not downplaying them, yet the number of TR modules do give a fair hint of sophistication of AESA since these modules serve as the core of AESA operations, transmit and receive signals. The greater the TRMs, the greater the capability (not necessarily range) and effectiveness of AESA


 
AESA effectiveness also depends upon

The extent to which and AESA radar has the ability to form multiple beams to scan without mechanical steering
To use each TRM for different roles concurrently
The extent to which an AESA's multiple wave and scanning frequencies can create multiple difficulties for traditional, correlation-type radar detectors.

Also the more the modules of an AESA radar the more advantage it has since each module operates independently of the others, single failures have little effect on the operation of the system as a whole

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## siegecrossbow

Pretty neat J-10B video:

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## TaimiKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> 1- SC, not sure......
> 2-TVC, Likely, but not a necessity amid growing weapons sophistication
> 3-Stealthy nozzels?  do you mean heat signature reduction? if you do then no, but with advanced HMS and irfa-optical seekers being in use, this advantage is of no use, if it exists.
> J-10B has AESA *while none of these fighters till date* (except block 60 or may be su-35) has operational AESA in place. J-10B's AESA is more potent than Block 60's containing 1000TRMs and equal to JSF's AESA. Secondly J-10B is expected to come with serious sensor fusion, much more than on any of its contenders.


 
F-22, some F-15s & F/A-18 E/F are also operational with AESA radars.


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## fatman17

_based on this extract from a defence paper, dont see how the J-10A/B will be in PAF service anytime soon..._

*Power problems*

Engines are among the selective technologies that China must, for now, continue to import. While AVIC intends to invest CNY10 billion (USD1.55 billion) over the next five years in high-performance engine development and to restructure its research and development (R&D) operations, self-sufficiency in this area could still be five to 10 years away. 

The Chinese Ministry of Defence is certainly still hedging its bets, having signed a USD500 million deal with Russia for 123 AL-31FN turbofan engines (which already power much of the PLAAF) in June despite Chinese media reports in late 2010 that the domestically developed WS-10 turbofan engine had entered series production and was now powering the J-11B. Indeed, early production of the WS-10 is reported to have been encountering problems and nobody knows when more advanced Chinese-designed engines like the WS-15 - which could power high-performance aircraft like the J-20 - might be ready for use in the field. 

A shortage of engines may be one factor that accounts for China's unusually slow rate of aircraft production. Cliff pointed out that only around 12 J-10s have been coming off the production line per year so far, compared with the 100 more complex F-35s that will be built annually once that programme is fully up and running. "What this means is that China either still has technical constraints on the production side or that it has very high production costs," he said. This has potentially important consequences for the PLAAF's hopes of replacing the large numbers of legacy aircraft in its inventory. Hundreds of these older aircraft, such as the MiG-19/Q-5, the MiG-21/J-7 and the Chinese-designed J-8, still make up two-thirds of the PLAAF's strength and slow production rates suggest that this state of affairs will not change any time soon.

Slow production rates and high costs would also inhibit the export potential of the J-10 and the FC-1/JF-17, both of which have attracted only one foreign customer so far: Pakistan. China has generally been able to compensate for the inefficiency of its uncompetitive aviation sector by effectively handing blank cheques to aircraft manufacturers like Chengdu and Shenyang. However, this level of funding will not continue indefinitely and Beijing will be unwilling to export aircraft at a significant loss, even if the sales have strategic value. 

High costs and slow production rates could also eventually tip the balance in favour of acquiring new Russian aircraft. If AVIC succeeds in getting on top of these problems within the next five years and also succeeds in mastering the development of core systems such as engines and avionics, then the PLAAF should be inducting the J-20 - or one of the other fifth-generation designs that AVIC subsidiaries are working on - by the 2020s. If not, then acquiring the Su-35 or the T-50 could become necessary. 

Even then, the PLAAF faces major hurdles if it is to become a force capable of more than simply defending the homeland, possessing as yet only a negligible air-to-air refuelling capability, for example. As long as these key enabling capabilities remain only nominal, the theory that impressive-looking programmes like the J-20 are more about grabbing headlines than about military contingency will continue to sound plausible


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## SBD-3

TaimiKhan said:


> F-22, some F-15s & F/A-18 E/F are also operational with AESA radars.


Taimi i am referring to 4.5th Gens. F-15s and F-18s have recently been introduced, but these are American platforms, I any European platform is flying with operational AESA, Fulcurm Ns are also flying with AESA, but i dont know whether SU-35 has an operational aesa and it has a foriegn active service..


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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> _based on this extract from a defence paper, dont see how the J-10A/B will be in PAF service anytime soon..._
> 
> *Power problems*
> 
> Engines are among the selective technologies that China must, for now, continue to import. While AVIC intends to invest CNY10 billion (USD1.55 billion) over the next five years in high-performance engine development and to restructure its research and development (R&D) operations, self-sufficiency in this area could still be five to 10 years away.
> 
> The Chinese Ministry of Defence is certainly still hedging its bets, having signed a USD500 million deal with Russia for 123 AL-31FN turbofan engines (which already power much of the PLAAF) in June despite Chinese media reports in late 2010 that the domestically developed WS-10 turbofan engine had entered series production and was now powering the J-11B. Indeed, early production of the WS-10 is reported to have been encountering problems and nobody knows when more advanced Chinese-designed engines like the WS-15 - which could power high-performance aircraft like the J-20 - might be ready for use in the field.
> 
> A shortage of engines may be one factor that accounts for China's unusually slow rate of aircraft production. Cliff pointed out that only around 12 J-10s have been coming off the production line per year so far, compared with the 100 more complex F-35s that will be built annually once that programme is fully up and running. "What this means is that China either still has technical constraints on the production side or that it has very high production costs," he said. This has potentially important consequences for the PLAAF's hopes of replacing the large numbers of legacy aircraft in its inventory. Hundreds of these older aircraft, such as the MiG-19/Q-5, the MiG-21/J-7 and the Chinese-designed J-8, still make up two-thirds of the PLAAF's strength and slow production rates suggest that this state of affairs will not change any time soon.
> 
> Slow production rates and high costs would also inhibit the export potential of the J-10 and the FC-1/JF-17, both of which have attracted only one foreign customer so far: Pakistan. China has generally been able to compensate for the inefficiency of its uncompetitive aviation sector by effectively handing blank cheques to aircraft manufacturers like Chengdu and Shenyang. However, this level of funding will not continue indefinitely and Beijing will be unwilling to export aircraft at a significant loss, even if the sales have strategic value.
> 
> High costs and slow production rates could also eventually tip the balance in favour of acquiring new Russian aircraft. If AVIC succeeds in getting on top of these problems within the next five years and also succeeds in mastering the development of core systems such as engines and avionics, then the PLAAF should be inducting the J-20 - or one of the other fifth-generation designs that AVIC subsidiaries are working on - by the 2020s. If not, then acquiring the Su-35 or the T-50 could become necessary.
> 
> Even then, the PLAAF faces major hurdles if it is to become a force capable of more than simply defending the homeland, possessing as yet only a negligible air-to-air refuelling capability, for example. As long as these key enabling capabilities remain only nominal, the theory that impressive-looking programmes like the J-20 are more about grabbing headlines than about military contingency will continue to sound plausible


 
Interesting article, but there are certainly a few questions I would like to raise.
1-Had WS-10 series been facing the same problems, it would not have seen itself in tail of a J-10B, installation of WS-10 on J-10B is an active signal that WS-10 is not the same WS-10 which we saw couple of years ago powering J-11Bs. Even at that time i thought it was a smart move to put a new engine into twin engine platform and there would have been a lot of tweaking makeing it acceptable to critical single engine platform. WS-13 has been more promising since it has been powering FC-1 ab initio, as Far as i know WS-13 has FDEC and more thrust but response time was high, but I think it would have been maturing by now. Considering the recent development do you think that Chinese are standing at the same place where they were lets say 2 years ago given now they are fully aware of the critical nature of issue?
2-Had there been a case of induction of Russian platform, the first sign we would have witnessed would have been a development on J-15 Issue. I can still remeber huge amount of J-11s parked at SAC waiting for their engine. After having prmoising developments by CAC and SAC do you think Chinese would be inclined towards Russian platforms?


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## S10

PWFI said:


> WICHe ONE BRO?


Designation was never specified, but I speculate they will graft sub-systems from J-20 on to J-10.

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## fatman17

hasnain0099 said:


> Interesting article, but there are certainly a few questions I would like to raise.
> 1-Had WS-10 series been facing the same problems, it would not have seen itself in tail of a J-10B, installation of WS-10 on J-10B is an active signal that WS-10 is not the same WS-10 which we saw couple of years ago powering J-11Bs. Even at that time i thought it was a smart move to put a new engine into twin engine platform and there would have been a lot of tweaking makeing it acceptable to critical single engine platform. WS-13 has been more promising since it has been powering FC-1 ab initio, as Far as i know WS-13 has FDEC and more thrust but response time was high, but I think it would have been maturing by now. Considering the recent development do you think that Chinese are standing at the same place where they were lets say 2 years ago given now they are fully aware of the critical nature of issue?
> 2-Had there been a case of induction of Russian platform, the first sign we would have witnessed would have been a development on J-15 Issue. I can still remeber huge amount of J-11s parked at SAC waiting for their engine. After having prmoising developments by CAC and SAC do you think Chinese would be inclined towards Russian platforms?



the conventional wisdom is that china is making progress in their engine production from a reliability standpoint but are still 5 to 10 years away from mass production (like in the west). till then russian engines or aircraft will form a significant part of the PLAAF.


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## Beast

I dont know why people keep recycling old outdated western news about Chinese engine development. First of all Mass production of WS-10 has already began. 123 engines are ordered from a last year deal. Probably as replacement engines for J-10A or finished the remaining kit for j-10a. 

The fact they test WS-10 on a single J-10B aircraft show the engine has matured and no problem being mass produced. Have you seen new J-11B running with AL-31 engine? No right? That mean WS-10 are running well to keep J-11B production line running.


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## fatman17

Beast said:


> I dont know why people keep recycling old outdated western news about Chinese engine development. First of all Mass production of WS-10 has already began. 123 engines are ordered from a last year deal. Probably as replacement engines for J-10A or finished the remaining kit for j-10a.
> 
> The fact they test WS-10 on a single J-10B aircraft show the engine has matured and no problem being mass produced. Have you seen new J-11B running with AL-31 engine? No right? That mean WS-10 are running well to keep J-11B production line running.



like you we all hope you are right !!!


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## Mani2020

hasnain0099 said:


> 1- SC, not sure......
> 2-TVC, Likely, but not a necessity amid growing weapons sophistication
> 3-Stealthy nozzels?  do you mean heat signature reduction? if you do then no, but with advanced HMS and irfa-optical seekers being in use, this advantage is of no use, if it exists.
> J-10B has AESA while none of these fighters till date (except block 60 or may be su-35) has operational AESA in place. *J-10B's AESA is more potent than Block 60's containing 1000TRMs and equal to JSF's AESA*. *Secondly J-10B is expected to come with serious sensor fusion*, much more than on any of its contenders.


 


hasnain0099 said:


> Taimi i am referring to 4.5th Gens. F-15s and F-18s have recently been introduced, but these are American platforms, I any European platform is flying with operational AESA, Fulcurm Ns are also flying with AESA, but i dont know whether SU-35 has an operational aesa and it has a foriegn active service..



Husnain don't mind but your statement is bit exaggerated one,Isarel latest developed AESA radar is known to have some 1400 TR modules compared to the rumored 1200 TR modules of J-10B radar ,so if you are comparing them on TR modules basis then certainly Isareli radar is more capable than what we will see on J-10B ,

Also Isarel is known to have incorporated many indigenous systems on their US origin aircrafts and their policy of hiding their stuff is not different to PAF rather i would say more strict so i will not be amazed if they have already incorporated that AESA radar on their F-16's and F-15's. 

And as far as JSF is concerned we don't know the number of modules JSF AESA has , you cant judge that on the basis of F-16 block 60's radar , coz there are three things to be kept in mind 

1) Block-60 is an export aircarft so don't expect US to incorporate their best radar in that aircraft
2) There have been many developments of AESA radar in US and some examples of F-15's and F-18's are flying with way more capable AESA radar than what we see on F-16's , so F-35 radar will be easily considered as a better than f-15 and f-18 and either on par with f-22's or slight variation.
3) The AN/APG-81 used on F-35 is a successor radar to the F-22's AN/APG-77 , so one can think of it to be more capable than AN/APG-77, where as AN/APG-77 AESA radar used on 
F-22 has 1500 TR modules

As far as sensor fusion is concerned what we know is that sensor fusion on j-10b will be some what hybrid form of sensors found on su-30 series and some european ones , but after su-30 Russia has come up with new and more advanced aircrafts like mig-35 and su-35 (although a su-30 variant but more advance then any existing variant of su-30 series) so i will not wonder that these aircrafts will be having better sensor fusion compared to su-30 variants , so no one cant judge from the looks which aircraft has more advance sensor fusion.

Above all we know that all the info of j-10B is hypothetical or based on rumors so jumping to conclusion will be too early

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## Black Widow

Mani2020 said:


> Husnain don't mind but your statement is bit exaggerated one,Isarel latest developed AESA radar is known to have some 1400 TR modules compared to the rumored 1200 TR modules of J-10B radar ,so if you are comparing them on TR modules basis then certainly Isareli radar is more capable than what we will see on J-10B ,
> 
> Also Isarel is known to have incorporated many indigenous systems on their US origin aircrafts and their policy of hiding their stuff is not different to PAF rather i would say more strict so i will not be amazed if they have already incorporated that AESA radar on their F-16's and F-15's.
> 
> And as far as JSF is concerned we don't know the number of modules JSF AESA has , you cant judge that on the basis of F-16 block 60's radar , coz there are three things to be kept in mind
> 
> 1) Block-60 is an export aircarft so don't expect US to incorporate their best radar in that aircraft
> 2) There have been many developments of AESA radar in US and some examples of F-15's and F-18's are flying with way more capable AESA radar than what we see on F-16's , so F-35 radar will be easily considered as a better than f-15 and f-18 and either on par with f-22's or slight variation.
> 3) The AN/APG-81 used on F-35 is a successor radar to the F-22's AN/APG-77 , so one can think of it to be more capable than AN/APG-77, where as AN/APG-77 AESA radar used on
> F-22 has 1500 TR modules
> 
> As far as sensor fusion is concerned what we know is that sensor fusion on j-10b will be some what hybrid form of sensors found on su-30 series and some european ones , but after su-30 Russia has come up with new and more advanced aircrafts like mig-35 and su-35 (although a su-30 variant but more advance then any existing variant of su-30 series) so i will not wonder that these aircrafts will be having better sensor fusion compared to su-30 variants , so no one cant judge from the looks which aircraft has more advance sensor fusion.
> 
> Above all we know that all the info of j-10B is hypothetical or based on rumors so jumping to conclusion will be too early


 
Balanced and sensible post... I totally Agree with you...


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## cw2005

The hot topic now in Chinese forums is mainly on how the newer version's performance of WS10, not whether it is usable or not. They opined that the reason to import more Russian engines is due to production of the Chinese engine could not meet the demands of J10, J11, J15 and possibly other figther program (SF jX??). 

However, so far, newer versions of J11, J15 and J10 pictures indicate WS10s are being used except the first 50 J10B to be produced shortly. 

This engine is being used in testing single-engined J10B shows that PLAA is having confidence to accept the fighter with local engine.


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## Dil Pakistan

*Can somebody please tell me which other fighters use the Russian AL31FN engine (I gather this engine is envisaged for J10B / FC20). Thank you.*


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## Beast

Bro... F-35 is an export plane. The spec of AESA will be hard to hide. Espcially it is going to export to more than a dozen countries.

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## Beast

Dil Pakistan said:


> *Can somebody please tell me which other fighters use the Russian AL31FN engine (I gather this engine is envisaged for J10B / FC20). Thank you.*



Only J-10 uses AL-31FN. It gearbox is located below instead on top of the AL-31 engine uses on Su-27SK. That is the reason why mass production of WS-10 is successful because China has long time never import AL-31 from Russian. Then J-11B engine if not using WS-10 then where did it come from?

An one thing to remember. China build a massive plant to overhaul and upgrade AL-31 engine and AL-31FN, if China immediately switch to WS-10, then this factory will suddenly be redundant and money will be wasted. Part of the reason to import some AL-31FN is to make full use of this facilities with money already spend.

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## [--Leo--]

Beast said:


> Bro... F-35 is an export plane. The spec of AESA will be hard to hide. Espcially it is going to export to more than a dozen countries.



F-35 Have better AESA or F-22 Have better one because F-22 is like mini awacs


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## [--Leo--]

Beast said:


> Bro... F-35 is an export plane. The spec of AESA will be hard to hide. Espcially it is going to export to more than a dozen countries.



F-35 Have better AESA or F-22 Have better one because F-22 is like mini awacs


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## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> _based on this extract from a defence paper, dont see how the J-10A/B will be in PAF service anytime soon..._
> 
> *Power problems*
> 
> Engines are among the selective technologies that China must, for now, continue to import. While AVIC intends to invest CNY10 billion (USD1.55 billion) over the next five years in high-performance engine development and to restructure its research and development (R&D) operations, self-sufficiency in this area could still be five to 10 years away.
> 
> The Chinese Ministry of Defence is certainly still hedging its bets, having signed a USD500 million deal with Russia for 123 AL-31FN turbofan engines (which already power much of the PLAAF) in June despite Chinese media reports in late 2010 that the domestically developed WS-10 turbofan engine had entered series production and was now powering the J-11B. Indeed, early production of the WS-10 is reported to have been encountering problems and nobody knows when more advanced Chinese-designed engines like the WS-15 - which could power high-performance aircraft like the J-20 - might be ready for use in the field.
> 
> A shortage of engines may be one factor that accounts for China's unusually slow rate of aircraft production. Cliff pointed out that only around 12 J-10s have been coming off the production line per year so far, compared with the 100 more complex F-35s that will be built annually once that programme is fully up and running. "What this means is that China either still has technical constraints on the production side or that it has very high production costs," he said. This has potentially important consequences for the PLAAF's hopes of replacing the large numbers of legacy aircraft in its inventory. Hundreds of these older aircraft, such as the MiG-19/Q-5, the MiG-21/J-7 and the Chinese-designed J-8, still make up two-thirds of the PLAAF's strength and slow production rates suggest that this state of affairs will not change any time soon.
> 
> Slow production rates and high costs would also inhibit the export potential of the J-10 and the FC-1/JF-17, both of which have attracted only one foreign customer so far: Pakistan. China has generally been able to compensate for the inefficiency of its uncompetitive aviation sector by effectively handing blank cheques to aircraft manufacturers like Chengdu and Shenyang. However, this level of funding will not continue indefinitely and Beijing will be unwilling to export aircraft at a significant loss, even if the sales have strategic value.
> 
> High costs and slow production rates could also eventually tip the balance in favour of acquiring new Russian aircraft. If AVIC succeeds in getting on top of these problems within the next five years and also succeeds in mastering the development of core systems such as engines and avionics, then the PLAAF should be inducting the J-20 - or one of the other fifth-generation designs that AVIC subsidiaries are working on - by the 2020s. If not, then acquiring the Su-35 or the T-50 could become necessary.
> 
> Even then, the PLAAF faces major hurdles if it is to become a force capable of more than simply defending the homeland, possessing as yet only a negligible air-to-air refuelling capability, for example. As long as these key enabling capabilities remain only nominal, the theory that impressive-looking programmes like the J-20 are more about grabbing headlines than about military contingency will continue to sound plausible



The fact that J-10 has started to be powered by a domestic built engine speaks volume about their confidence in local built engines and the fact that it has matured up to be used in single engine jets such as the J-10 and JF-17. I wonder why the author is producing a sob story. 
As for the cost factor, J-10 to date is still cheaper then its counterparts available world wide. For e.g a eurofighter costs around 90 million euros, add training and spare parts, the cost goes too around 120m. Compare to that J-10 costs much low. So i am not sure how would it loose market.

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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> Husnain don't mind but your statement is bit exaggerated one,Isarel latest developed AESA radar is known to have some 1400 TR modules compared to the rumored 1200 TR modules of J-10B radar ,so if you are comparing them on TR modules basis then certainly Isareli radar is more capable than what we will see on J-10B ,
> 
> Also Isarel is known to have incorporated many indigenous systems on their US origin aircrafts and their policy of hiding their stuff is not different to PAF rather i would say more strict so i will not be amazed if they have already incorporated that AESA radar on their F-16's and F-15's.
> 
> And as far as JSF is concerned we don't know the number of modules JSF AESA has , you cant judge that on the basis of F-16 block 60's radar , coz there are three things to be kept in mind
> 
> 1) Block-60 is an export aircarft so don't expect US to incorporate their best radar in that aircraft
> 2) There have been many developments of AESA radar in US and some examples of F-15's and F-18's are flying with way more capable AESA radar than what we see on F-16's , so F-35 radar will be easily considered as a better than f-15 and f-18 and either on par with f-22's or slight variation.
> 3) The AN/APG-81 used on F-35 is a successor radar to the F-22's AN/APG-77 , so one can think of it to be more capable than AN/APG-77, where as AN/APG-77 AESA radar used on
> F-22 has 1500 TR modules
> 
> As far as sensor fusion is concerned what we know is that sensor fusion on j-10b will be some what hybrid form of sensors found on su-30 series and some european ones , but after su-30 Russia has come up with new and more advanced aircrafts like mig-35 and su-35 (although a su-30 variant but more advance then any existing variant of su-30 series) so i will not wonder that these aircrafts will be having better sensor fusion compared to su-30 variants , so no one cant judge from the looks which aircraft has more advance sensor fusion.
> 
> Above all we know that all the info of j-10B is hypothetical or based on rumors so jumping to conclusion will be too early


Agreed, but few things to discuss further 
1-F-22 has around 2000 TRMs on its AESA as per my reads JSF 1200-1000 and F-16 1000, However, how F-22 it can achieve more from F-16 and JSF is that to compensate the threat of being picked by enemy sensors at long range amid higher radiations emitted,it uses the concept of LPI aka bandpass radome. So having an AESA on a platform is another thing but how do one augment the capabilities, is of course another.Yet I do agree that AESA's performance is a combination of a host of factors, i.e. maturity, sophistication, quality, reliability etc, no questions whatsoever about it, I am certain that there will certainly be a significant difference in capability of NRG AESA when compared with NIRET or ELTA AESA. 
2- Since TRMs work as a both emitter and receivers on the radar, thus a rough concept would be the more TRMs, the more Receivers and Emitters the more the expected quality of the radar (not necessarily range),of course, TRM range in terms of capabilities putting a simple TRM structure vs a sophisticated one is one issue. However, intergration of Higher number of TRM essentially would require miniaturization, just like chips on a board where you have a fixed pie available to you. This might be a reason why Chinese were considering it a challenge to move towards higher TRM aesas. If Israel has been able to produce an aesa with 1400 TRMs on that and both Chinese and Israeli aesa are of the same size, I would certainly make a hatz off to them.
3- On F-16 aesa being less capable, and JSF being more capable than F-22 i would have to disagree, F-16 aesa was funded by UAE, it would also mean that F-16s AESA should have met UAEAF's requirements.Its not necessary that US always offers "watered down" products in export market, I do remember an interview of US official who pointed out that some time US is compelled to offer the fully capable or even more sophisticated product to its allies. If export range AESA is an argument then JSF's aesa should also be less capable than F-22 since it is also an exportable aircraft. However, what gives JSF an edge over F-22 is its sensor fusion technology or to be more specific DAS which augments situation awareness capabilities in addition to aesa. 
4- I do have to disagree on that as well, If all Chinese would have been implementing on their 4th Gen is a mixture of Su-30 systems, then it effectively puts J-20 in the same league or even behind PAK-FA which has somewhat tried to make up for sensor fusion by adding radars.Even Russians IMHO dont have a match for DAS and Chinese lag as per your inference, J-20 is only a stealth shaped 3rd gen put it 3.5. Did you hear the news about JSF data hack a few years ago, Tera bites of data about JSF programs was hacked and transferred, US was quick to blame Chinese. Lets suppose if China was not involved, they would have certainly been sniffing on the net for JSF data. If someone makes a statement that Chinese create a hybrid system for 5th Gen by merely combining 4th Gen technologies, it would be pretty hard to digest, for me at least.


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## Imran Khan



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## Manticore



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## Pfpilot

Imran Khan said:


>



The sd-10 in the first picture closely resembles the amraam series, while the one in the second picture looks much more like the old sparrow. Is the missile in the first picture the latest sd-10 variant being tested?


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## Mani2020

hasnain0099 said:


> Agreed, but few things to discuss further
> 1-F-22 has around 2000 TRMs on its AESA as per my reads JSF 1200-1000 and F-16 1000, However, how F-22 it can achieve more from F-16 and JSF is that to compensate the threat of being picked by enemy sensors at long range amid higher radiations emitted,it uses the concept of LPI aka bandpass radome. So having an AESA on a platform is another thing but how do one augment the capabilities, is of course another.Yet I do agree that AESA's performance is a combination of a host of factors, i.e. maturity, sophistication, quality, reliability etc, no questions whatsoever about it, I am certain that there will certainly be a significant difference in capability of NRG AESA when compared with NIRET or ELTA AESA.
> 2- Since TRMs work as a both emitter and receivers on the radar, thus a rough concept would be the more TRMs, the more Receivers and Emitters the more the expected quality of the radar (not necessarily range),of course, TRM range in terms of capabilities putting a simple TRM structure vs a sophisticated one is one issue. However, intergration of Higher number of TRM essentially would require miniaturization, just like chips on a board where you have a fixed pie available to you. This might be a reason why Chinese were considering it a challenge to move towards higher TRM aesas. If Israel has been able to produce an aesa with 1400 TRMs on that and both Chinese and Israeli aesa are of the same size, I would certainly make a hatz off to them.
> 3- On F-16 aesa being less capable, and JSF being more capable than F-22 i would have to disagree, F-16 aesa was funded by UAE, it would also mean that F-16s AESA should have met UAEAF's requirements.Its not necessary that US always offers "watered down" products in export market, I do remember an interview of US official who pointed out that some time US is compelled to offer the fully capable or even more sophisticated product to its allies. If export range AESA is an argument then JSF's aesa should also be less capable than F-22 since it is also an exportable aircraft. However, what gives JSF an edge over F-22 is its sensor fusion technology or to be more specific DAS which augments situation awareness capabilities in addition to aesa.
> 4- I do have to disagree on that as well, If all Chinese would have been implementing on their 4th Gen is a mixture of Su-30 systems, then it effectively puts J-20 in the same league or even behind PAK-FA which has somewhat tried to make up for sensor fusion by adding radars.Even Russians IMHO dont have a match for DAS and Chinese lag as per your inference, J-20 is only a stealth shaped 3rd gen put it 3.5. Did you hear the news about JSF data hack a few years ago, Tera bites of data about JSF programs was hacked and transferred, US was quick to blame Chinese. Lets suppose if China was not involved, they would have certainly been sniffing on the net for JSF data. If someone makes a statement that Chinese create a hybrid system for 5th Gen by merely combining 4th Gen technologies, it would be pretty hard to digest, for me at least.



Husnain agree on some of your points, but my reply was in accordance to your post where you said TR modules somewhat describes the capability of a radar , In case of F-16 block 60 UAEF may have been agreed upon 1000 TR module based AESA because US was the only country who was offering them an AESA radar while no other country till then had AESA operational so it was a monoply and in monoply you have no chance to bargain about atleast not freely other part is that at that time other than US or may be Israel no other country had AESA operational in their aircrafts so it was an opportunity for UAEF to get what others are still striving for, also not to forget that no matter how less TR modules an AESA has still its better than Pulse doppler or other conventional radars most importantly the good anti-jamming capabilities it provides you , so it may have created some soft spot in the mind of UAEF.

Secondly as you say that JSF also is an export variant so how come i conclude its AESA to be better , Husnain F-16 block 60 was just made for UAEF and USAF was not even using it but in case of JSF its a joint development b/w many partner countries and US also will be using it , even if US provides other countries with downgraded version of AESA still the JSF in USAF inventory will be using the best AESA radar. now as i already said that AN/APG-81 used on F-35 is a successor radar to the F-22's AN/APG-77 so its common sense to think that JSF AESA will be better than F-22's AESA as in technology there is just move ahead and no down turn . Tell me one thing is it possible for a company to forst produce pentium 4 processor and then produce pentium 3 as its successor?

Lastly China has taken many leaps towards latest technology but still one has to understand they are new to this arena they yet have to see the operational capabilities of their systems so far neither J-20 nor J-10B is operational , you cant just hypothetically say that if J-20 has come out it will probable will be the best out of China because still many people are not sure whether J-20 is a technology demonstrator or real form. Even if its not technology demonstrator still you don't know whether in case of avionics suite and sensors it is fully equipped or not , China is still experimenting with the aircrafts it has , so give them some time before concluding everything virtually

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## DANGER-ZONE

Imran Khan said:


>


 


Pfpilot said:


> The sd-10 in the first picture closely resembles the amraam series, while the one in the second picture looks much more like the old sparrow. Is the missile in the first picture the latest sd-10 variant being tested?



Missile in 1st Picture is SD-10 / PL-12 and the one in 2nd is PL-11 which is similar to Aim-7 Sparrow. 
Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force

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## Manticore



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## Beast

Somehow I feel J-10B looks fat with the DSI intake....


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## BATMAN

PT05 is rightfully dragon.

Ever improving.. clearly the fuel capacity had been increased, improved airintake, improved frame, new engine, AESA + electro-optical radar, more advance CM and EW suite.

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## Jango

Beast said:


> Somehow I feel J-10B looks fat with the DSI intake....



Looks like it has a tumor!!


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## Nestea




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## Donatello

Beast said:


> Somehow I feel J-10B looks fat with the DSI intake....



It's been hitting the Gym lately.


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## [--Leo--]

BATMAN said:


> PT05 is rightfully dragon.
> 
> Ever improving.. clearly the fuel capacity had been increased, improved airintake, improved frame, new engine, AESA + electro-optical radar, more advance CM and EW suite.




new engine which 1?


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## PWFI

[--Leo--];2036983 said:


> new engine which 1?



Chinese WS-10


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## IceCold

Imran Khan said:


>



For me the A version always looked more meaner and tougher then the B version. B version is kinda cute lolll  with dsi intake. 



Sorry could not resist.


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## siegecrossbow

IceCold said:


> For me the A version always looked more meaner and tougher then the B version. B version is kinda cute lolll  with dsi intake.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry could not resist.



Braces look cuter...

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## Imran Khan

IceCold said:


> For me the A version always looked more meaner and tougher then the B version. B version is kinda cute lolll  with dsi intake.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry could not resist.



but my dear friend B is so for at this time we should love that baby which is infront of us and we can got it .B is like you love britny .lolz

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## Silk

The j10b is a nice plane but one shortcoming is extremely problem. If you look at the counterparts in the iaf mrca program then i have to conclude that the design is not good enough. Both the Rafale as Eurofighter have belly stationd for three or four bvr's. They both better utilized wingstations (either ecm/decoy or full wing station). I truly thinj that dual launchers are nice but they are far less handy then what the opponents have. The plane can never be truly omnirole/multirole. I thing it was a bad move to focus on the dsi while this issue is neglected.


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## TaimiKhan

Silk said:


> The j10b is a nice plane but one shortcoming is extremely problem. If you look at the counterparts in the iaf mrca program then i have to conclude that the design is not good enough. Both the Rafale as Eurofighter have belly stationd for three or four bvr's. They both better utilized wingstations (either ecm/decoy or full wing station). I truly thinj that dual launchers are nice but they are far less handy then what the opponents have. The plane can never be truly omnirole/multirole. I thing it was a bad move to focus on the dsi while this issue is neglected.


 
The rafale & EF are twin engine fighters, thus have wide body airframes compared to the single engine J-10. Thus, both the twin engine airframes are able to accommodate more hard points under the fuselage compared to J-10. But still, J-10 has 11 hard points and with MERs, the weapon carrying capacity can be further increased. 

And again, we are not in a tit for tat response situation when it comes to IAF. They are buying MRCA as per their own requirements and resources, while we are getting J-10s as per our requirements and resources. They get twin engine fighter does not means you also have to get a dual engine fighter, a dual engine can be countered with a single engine fighter. 

And J-10 is a perfect choice for us, it has good weapon carrying capacity and meets our requirements and will be a good answer to any 4th or 4.5 Gen fighter. And it will be a good multi-role fighter jet once introduced in PAF.

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## houshanghai

J-10B Vigorous Dragon pre-flight check by engineers and/or technicians.





J-10B PT05 with WS-10A engine taxis onto the runway.





J-10B prepares to takeoff.





J-10B is airborne.





J-10B engages in maneuvers, such as climbs, dives, and sharp turns.





J-10B finishes the flight test and comes in for landing.





J-10B touches down on runway.





J-10B deploys its drag 


thx martian edit


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## houshanghai

*thx 8800 and himitechworld 
*













*link*
http://www.avicone.com/Article_Show.asp?ArticleID=16554

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## ziaulislam

Silk said:


> The j10b is a nice plane but one shortcoming is extremely problem. If you look at the counterparts in the iaf mrca program then i have to conclude that the design is not good enough. Both the Rafale as Eurofighter have belly stationd for three or four bvr's. They both better utilized wingstations (either ecm/decoy or full wing station). I truly thinj that dual launchers are nice but they are far less handy then what the opponents have. The plane can never be truly omnirole/multirole. I thing it was a bad move to focus on the dsi while this issue is neglected.



Ef and rafale have 13 hard points while j10 has 11..not a much difference.
under fuselage j-10 has 5 same to that EF..


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## Silk

ziaulislam said:


> Ef and rafale have 13 hard points while j10 has 11..not a much difference.
> under fuselage j-10 has 5 same to that EF..



If you could use them efficiently then there is indeed just two difference but you do not look at the numbers but the usage. If you have no decent BVR stations then you are bound to use your wingstations for that. Two of those wingstations are to be fueltanks. And those body stations can only have unguided small bombs.


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## SQ8

The J-10A has around 4 usable BVR stations under the fuselage.. and another four on the wings. 
If fuel tanks are carried.. that still give it 4 BVR weapons under the fuselage.. +2 tanks in the inboard plumbed stations.. +2 BVR in stations 3 and 4.. along with 2 WVR at the outer wing stations...
However.. that all depends on whether the stations underneath the fuselage are capable of holding BVR's.. weight and ground clearance being the primary factors.
In case they arent.. the J-10 may use a dual rack on 3 & 4 to carry 4 MRAAM's..and 2 SRAAM's.. not a very potent mix.
The fuselage hardpoints for the J-10 are crucial to offer any competitive ability in A2A combat against the eurocanards.


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## Silk

Santro said:


> The J-10A has around 4 usable BVR stations under the fuselage.. and another four on the wings.
> If fuel tanks are carried.. that still give it 4 BVR weapons under the fuselage.. +2 tanks in the inboard plumbed stations.. +2 BVR in stations 3 and 4.. along with 2 WVR at the outer wing stations...
> However.. that all depends on whether the stations underneath the fuselage are capable of holding BVR's.. weight and ground clearance being the primary factors.
> In case they arent.. the J-10 may use a dual rack on 3 & 4 to carry 4 MRAAM's..and 2 SRAAM's.. not a very potent mix.
> The fuselage hardpoints for the J-10 are crucial to offer any competitive ability in A2A combat against the eurocanards.



I agree that it has 4 stations under the fuselage but none able to carry BVR. The frontal are probably going to be used by targetting and IR pods. The back ones are not capable of holding any BVR size weapon without obstructing gear bay doors or ground clearance.

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## Silk

frontal pods..












or bombs...






back ones


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## DANGER-ZONE

Santro said:


> The J-10A has around 4 usable BVR stations under the fuselage.. and another four on the wings.
> If fuel tanks are carried.. that still give it 4 BVR weapons under the fuselage.. +2 tanks in the inboard plumbed stations.. +2 BVR in stations 3 and 4.. along with 2 WVR at the outer wing stations...
> However.. that all depends on whether the stations underneath the fuselage are capable of holding BVR's.. weight and ground clearance being the primary factors.
> In case they arent.. the J-10 may use a dual rack on 3 & 4 to carry 4 MRAAM's..and 2 SRAAM's.. not a very potent mix.
> The fuselage hardpoints for the J-10 are crucial to offer any competitive ability in A2A combat against the eurocanards.



it has been confirmed from many Chinese friends and sources that 4 fuselage Stations of J-10 aren't missile launching station. front two are used for Targeting pods and all four can be used for loading bombs.


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## pshamim

We are rightly excited about the the presence of an AESA radar on J-10b. But reports are coming out of Japan that China has developed an anti-stealth stealth radar and it is being tested on J-10B. No further details are available but if this news is correct and Chinese are successful , it will render the stealth aircrafts far less effective than they were meant to be. News in on internet. Search

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## Drawn_Sword_of_God

where is the j10s cannon?


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## pshamim

Drawn_Sword_of_God said:


> where is the j10s cannon?



port side of front landing gear.

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## Jango

pshamim said:


> We are rightly excited about the the presence of an AESA radar on J-10b. But reports are coming out of Japan that China has developed an anti-stealth stealth radar and it is being tested on J-10B. No further details are available but if this news is correct and Chinese are successful , it will render the stealth aircrafts far less effective than they were meant to be. News in on internet. Search


 
WOW, if really true sir, then the J-10B can really be a potent adversary, and in effect, throwing the stealth programs of India as per this forum into the air.! Really nice development.


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## monitor

It will not just render Indian fifth generation but all the fifth generation fighter includingJ-20


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## ZaYYaF

That would be awesome if this development indeed gets materialized.


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## pshamim

News is from Japanese sources who are not at great terms with Chinese. Let us wait and see if there is a confirmation from other sources.

Also, even if the news is confirmed, will Pakistan have access to this technology. I will hope for the best.

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## razgriz19

Silk said:


> I agree that it has 4 stations under the fuselage but none able to carry BVR. The frontal are probably going to be used by targetting and IR pods. The back ones are not capable of holding any BVR size weapon without obstructing gear bay doors or ground clearance.



but it can still carry 4 BVR missiles as it has dual racks..


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## SQ8

I would be a little skeptical of these heard from this heard from that at this point..
Although one must hand it to the Chinese for delivering on rumors


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## BATMAN

Santro said:


> I would be a little skeptical of these heard from this heard from that at this point..
> Although one must hand it to the Chinese for delivering on rumors



So... i understand.. no complaints?

Just focus on fast track evolution of PT-05... it's all new!!!! and what you see on youtube can never be new at all !!! you can only guage the new with development history and leaks which never failed you.. until now.


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## Jango

Patience is a virtue at this point of time.


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## SQ8

BATMAN said:


> So... i understand.. no complaints?
> 
> Just focus on fast track evolution of PT-05... it's all new!!!! and what you see on youtube can never be new at all !!! you can only guage the new with development history and leaks which never failed you.. until now.



If the J-20 is any evidence of a much maligned rumor.. perhaps there is no harm in having faith in a few more rumors.


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## BATMAN

Santro said:


> If the J-20 is any evidence of a much maligned rumor.. perhaps there is no harm in having faith in a few more rumors.



Ok.....So shall we not expect technologies of J-20 being shared by J-10?


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## pshamim

Santro said:


> If the J-20 is any evidence of a much maligned rumor.. perhaps there is no harm in having faith in a few more rumors.



than Bhai! what is your reason for being skeptical. your earlier post is contradisctory. If China has delivered on almost every rumor, why will you be skeptical.

I am skeptical because of the source of this rumor-the Japanese.


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## SQ8

pshamim said:


> than Bhai! what is your reason for being skeptical. your earlier post is contradisctory. If China has delivered on almost every rumor, why will you be skeptical.
> 
> *I am skeptical because of the source of this rumor-the Japanese*.



That should answer the question... the heard from the japs about the chinese thing.

---------- Post added at 02:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 PM ----------




BATMAN said:


> Ok.....So shall we not expect technologies of J-20 being shared by J-10?



Never said anything supporting or not supporting it.


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## Jango

pshamim said:


> than Bhai! what is your reason for being skeptical. your earlier post is contradisctory. If China has delivered on almost every rumor, why will you be skeptical.
> 
> I am skeptical because of the source of this rumor-the Japanese.


 
But this rumor, even from the Japanese sources, seems a bit baffling. China is a bit behind the other players in this industry aka US and Russia. Or is the US just keeping it a secret.??


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## pshamim

The news/rumors about this type of radar is not new. They have been appearing consistently in Chinese pressfor for the last two years. last i saw was a news item from Chinese press that this radar was being tested on a Chinese UAV. This time, this rumor was eyectaching because it mentioned for the first time that radar was being tested on a J-10B

There have been reports that USA is also developing this capability as well if they have not done so already.

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## SQ8

pshamim said:


> The news/rumors about this type of radar is not new. They have been appearing consistently in Chinese pressfor for the last two years. last i saw was a news item from Chinese press that this radar was being tested on a Chinese UAV. This time, this rumor was eyectaching because it mentioned for the first time that radar was being tested on a J-10B



Ah.. then it deserves more attention.. 
Perhaps there is something in the works.. 
but anti-stealth?? high resolution AESA perhaps??
Or some sort of airborne bi-static? with the emitter and receiver offset in the aircraft.. or perhaps like the F-22.. a large section of the fuselage serves as an antenna.


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## Pfpilot

I may be deviating from the topic a little bit, but here again is why I feel the PAF should have gone with the j-10 instead of the jf-17 altogether. I understand the inherent advantages of a smaller single engine fighter but they would have been more relevant had we had the technological know how to improve the platform on our own. The Chinese seem completely focused on the j-10 and j-20 and all new tech is tested on the j-10, resulting in a further delay for the same tech to be modified or miniaturized to fit on the jf-17. J-10 is a far superior aircraft due its place as a technology demonstrator of sorts and isnt all that expensive, relative to euro canards. Had we invested in this platform instead, we may already have had a significant number of j-10s, which would have actually affected the air power balance in the region, instead of the status quo we are stuck with. Just my highly inexpert opinion.


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## Jango

Pfpilot said:


> I may be deviating from the topic a little bit, but here again is why I feel the PAF should have gone with the j-10 instead of the jf-17 altogether. I understand the inherent advantages of a smaller single engine fighter but they would have been more relevant had we had the technological know how to improve the platform on our own. The Chinese seem completely focused on the j-10 and j-20 and all new tech is tested on the j-10, resulting in a further delay for the same tech to be modified or miniaturized to fit on the jf-17. J-10 is a far superior aircraft due its place as a technology demonstrator of sorts and isnt all that expensive, relative to euro canards. Had we invested in this platform instead, we may already have had a significant number of j-10s, which would have actually affected the air power balance in the region, instead of the status quo we are stuck with. Just my highly inexpert opinion.



Both fighters present different needs and options for the PAF. J-10 was originally a Chinese aircraft, while the PAF wanted a aircraft which had much more of an input and design features by Pakistanis. Otherwise, with J-10 being a Chinese concept, we would have been just buying another aircraft from another country. J-10 is a F-16 kind of plane for Pakistan, not in mass numbers. While the JF-17 is being produced in house (will be), in numbers around the 250 mark if i am correct.

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## Pfpilot

Your point is noted, but again, we are hardly responsible for the tech or the airframe design of the jf-17. What differentiates the two aircraft is that we invested directly into the development of the jf-17s and now our producing it in house. We could have done the same with the j-10, had we invested in that platform instead. In that case, we would be claiming the j-10 as a joint production. Lets face it, neither aircraft is exactly Pakistani, most of jf-17s important subsystems are Chinese, its latest tech is tested in China and the armaments it carries are Chinese. 
I do understand the low cost factor is huge for the PAF, but I wonder if a smaller, but more potent force of j-10 and f-16s would suffice over a land area that is quite small.

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## Jango

Pfpilot said:


> Your point is noted, but again, we are hardly responsible for the tech or the airframe design of the jf-17. What differentiates the two aircraft is that we invested directly into the development of the jf-17s and now our producing it in house. We could have done the same with the j-10, had we invested in that platform instead. In that case, we would be claiming the j-10 as a joint production. Lets face it, neither aircraft is exactly Pakistani, most of jf-17s important subsystems are Chinese, its latest tech is tested in China and the armaments it carries are Chinese.
> I do understand the low cost factor is huge for the PAF, but I wonder if a smaller, but more potent force of j-10 and f-16s would suffice over a land area that is quite small.



Agreed that the JF-17 is not totally 100% is produced in house, and not all the systems were of Pakistani origin, but in a couple of years PAC will be doing mass production of these jets. Hence, the aircraft will have been built by PAC reasonably independently. Not the case with J-10 though. It was made with Chinese requirements in mind, not Pakistani. FC-20 might incorporate a Pakistani mindset system applications, but only very little. The JF-17 was made for PAF exclusively as a low cost, but effective 4 generation A/C to replace the A-5, F-7 and Mirage III/V. J-10 on the other hand is not a replacement, rather an addition, along with the F-16, around 150 are expected to be procured, so not mass numbers, but Hi-Tech in par with the F-16. JF-17 Block II will pack a punch mind you though.

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## pshamim

Santro said:


> Ah.. then it deserves more attention..
> Perhaps there is something in the works..
> but anti-stealth?? high resolution AESA perhaps??
> Or some sort of airborne bi-static? with the emitter and receiver offset in the aircraft.. or perhaps like the F-22.. a large section of the fuselage serves as an antenna.



This article is from Strategy Page dated 2004 and it talks about China's anti-stealth capabilities. It clearly shows that China has been working on this for at least 7 years. So rumor/news from Japanese press seems to hold water. I can provide several links on this subject:




Subject: China's anti-stealth capability
EastWind_81 4/21/2004 10:33:26 AM



This is from a while back: link THE CIA and Pentagon fear that China may be on of perfecting a new anti-aircraft technology that can locate and track the stealth fighters and bombers that form a central plank of US air power. The US defence establishment is so concerned that China may be forging a PCL, or ?passive coherent location? system, that America?s military planners have been summoned to a meeting in Washington next month to examine the strategic implications of such a breakthrough

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/69-5369.aspx

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## Arsalan

pshamim said:


> The news/rumors about this type of radar is not new. They have been appearing consistently in Chinese pressfor for the last two years. last i saw was a news item from Chinese press that this radar was being tested on a Chinese UAV. This time, this rumor was eyectaching because it mentioned for the first time that radar was being tested on a J-10B
> 
> There have been reports that USA is also developing this capability as well if they have not done so already.



exactly, there have been reports that China are developing a new Anti-stealth radar to counter the US legacy in stealth fighters. the news is not new and there are rumors existing. as you suggest, patience is the name of the game at present!
anti-stealth capability have been successfully integrated in land based systems so if there is a radar for fighter aircraft in development with anti stealth capabilities, it wont be a surprise:



> This is from a while back: link THE CIA and Pentagon fear that China may be on the verge of perfecting a new anti-aircraft technology that can locate and track the stealth fighters and bombers that form a central plank of US air power. The US defence establishment is so concerned that China may be forging a PCL, or ?passive coherent location? system, that America?s military planners have been summoned to a meeting in Washington next month to examine the strategic implications of such a breakthrough, Newsweek reported yesterday. Existing anti-aircraft early-warning systems rely on conventional radar, which the bat- shaped Stealth fighters are designed to evade. Such radars are also vulnerable to jamming and attack by missiles which follow the path of radar beams to transmitters. The new Chinese system, by contrast, simply monitors civilian radio and television broadcasts and analyses the minute fluctuations caused by the passage of an aircraft through commercial wavelengths. Relying on a network of receivers similar to television aerials, the ?silent? PCL system does not emit a tell- tale radar signal and is therefore much harder to locate and destroy. US military strategy could be dramatically undermined if US stealth aircraft, including the F117 fighter and the F22 fighter now in development, become vulnerable to Chinese interception, particularly given China?s more aggressive recent stance over Taiwan. ?Everyone is wondering about the cost of defending Taiwan,? one senior intelligence official was quoted as saying. The US is developing a similar system, the ?silent sentry?, which monitors energy reflected from commercial TV and radio signals to track aircraft. The shooting down of a US Air Force F117 fighter in March during the Kosovo conflict has added to US fears that the stealth technology, developed amid intense secrecy during the 1970s, may no longer be the asset that it was. Yugoslavia is believed to have sold on the wreckage of the F117, probably to China or Russia, and defence experts say that while the stealth technology used in that aircraft is now out of date, the wreck may still be useful for perfecting a means to track it. The Pentagon has refused to discuss how the aircraft was brought down, but defence officials say that the F117 was probably shot down by a Serb SA3 surface-to-air missile. The B2 bomber, first deployed during the Kosovo conflict, uses a more advanced type of stealth technology than the F117, but it could still leave a ?signature? detectable by a Chinese PCL system. The US is the only country with stealth technology in use, and both Russia and China have been researching a means of tracking the ?invisible? aircraft since the early 1970s. On conventional radar, if the technology is working correctly, a stealth aircaft is impossible to detect, but a PCL system may be able not only to ?see? the incoming aircraft, but identify the make by its disruption of television and radio signals permanently in the atmosphere.



that would be great. instead on spending millions of stealth, turn the JF or J-10 into stealth killers.
PAF will probable get access when IAF get the Stealth aircraft! China will put this in as a counter weight!


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## pshamim

By the way, China has already unveiled at one of their airshows the ground based Anti-stealth radar which interestingley resembles the Czech Vara radar. China tried to acquire the Vera but US put tremendous pressure on Czechs to not oblige . Pakistan was in possession of Vera when it leased one from the czecks but before it could obtain it, US bought the technology and the factory. Chinese have claimed that the radar is able to detect a F-22 at 1800 km.

But news of an airborne anti-stealth radar is baffling. if true, it has the potential of destroying any advantages that some will enjoy with their Stealth aircrafts.


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## Silk

I do not believe the (1800) range but it is indeed pretty amazing and passive. The concept is probably background noise and the receivers are maybe comparable with those GSM antenna's you all see...


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## IceCold

To have a anti stealth radar, don't you first need something stealth. I mean for now the only country to successfully employ a stealth aircraft is the US of A. So we can safely assume that US might have developed something Anti stealth as well since they have what they call as low observable aircraft's. There is no such thing as stealth. The concept of stealth was in movies only. So how exactly did Chinese develop something anti for which they have yet to achieve the technology of being low observable.
And even if we assume that China indeed has developed something that could detect the likes of F-22, question arises how successful the interception be?


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## Luftwaffe

pshamim said:


> By the way, China has already unveiled  at one of their airshows the ground based Anti-stealth radar which interestingley resembles the Czech Vara radar. China tried to acquire the Vera but US put tremendous pressure on Czechs to not oblige . Pakistan was in possession of Vera when it leased one from the czecks but before it could obtain it, US bought the technology and the factory. Chinese have claimed that the radar is able to detect a F-22 at 1800 km.
> 
> But news of an airborne anti-stealth radar is baffling. if true, it has the potential of destroying any advantages that some will enjoy with their Stealth aircrafts.



Interestingly Omnipol office outside Chez Republic is in hindustan not USA. If US has bought the technology and factory then surely US would have HQ or offices in US, I couldn't find any. 
It seems more likely a technology sharing agreement.

Some information.
http://www.army.cz/acr/vera/veraeeng.pdf


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## pshamim

Or I may be mistaken. US did buy the radar from Era, the manufacturers.
Omnipol is the marketing company with rights to sell Vera Radar.


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## Beast

IceCold said:


> To have a anti stealth radar, don't you first need something stealth. I mean for now the only country to successfully employ a stealth aircraft is the US of A. So we can safely assume that US might have developed something Anti stealth as well since they have what they call as low observable aircraft's. There is no such thing as stealth. The concept of stealth was in movies only. So how exactly did Chinese develop something anti for which they have yet to achieve the technology of being low observable.
> And even if we assume that China indeed has developed something that could detect the likes of F-22, question arises how successful the interception be?


 
Are you high on drugs or what? Then J-20 of China is what? We are not talking somalia developing an anti-stealth radar who has no history of having any stealth fighter jet..

We are talking about CHINA! Is it really so hard to believe it?


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## IceCold

Beast said:


> Are you high on drugs or what? Then J-20 of China is what? We are not talking somalia developing an anti-stealth radar who has no history of having any stealth fighter jet..
> 
> We are talking about CHINA! *Is it really so hard to believe it*?



Yes it is hard to believe. How long has it been since the J-20 came into existence. Heck J-20 hasnt even cleared the testing phase. Its a long way from getting inducted and becoming fully operational. Compare that to the time since the US has stealth technology. If J-20 is the bench mark for anti stealth radars, then good luck with finding the likes of F-22. Both China and Russia are far behind the US interms of stealth. Is it really that hard to accept?
And no i am not high so shut up and learn some manners on how to debate with other members on the forum. I haven't disrespected China or its capabilities just stating the truth bluntly.

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## SBD-3

Pfpilot said:


> Your point is noted, but again, we are hardly responsible for the tech or the airframe design of the jf-17. What differentiates the two aircraft is that we invested directly into the development of the jf-17s and now our producing it in house. We could have done the same with the j-10, had we invested in that platform instead. In that case, we would be claiming the j-10 as a joint production. Lets face it, neither aircraft is exactly Pakistani, most of jf-17s important subsystems are Chinese, its latest tech is tested in China and the armaments it carries are Chinese.
> I do understand the low cost factor is huge for the PAF, but I wonder if a smaller, but more potent force of j-10 and f-16s would suffice over a land area that is quite small.


J-10 could not be a Joint production since this program was directly funded by PLAAF which was never short of funds in 90s due to rising economy of China, on the other hand JFT was also intitally a PLAAF funded program but abandoned due to US embargo. however, CAC kept the program alive with its private funding and then offered Pakistan to invest in which was indeed a good move by Pakistan to jump in a potent yet economical platform. However, ask any Chinese aviation expert, how painful was the J-10 development. If we compare JFT with it, it would not be anything short of an achievement that JFT has been relatively a more smooth program which continues to grow. A factor attributable to that was also that by the time JFT program was shaping up CAC had become a more matured producer as they were almost done with their J-10 Program, so they knew what to do and what not to. And Lastly, JFT was a joint development program and Pakistanis did move in with their contribution, A huge team of Pakistani engineers in CAC was not there for working as an assistant but an active contributor, dont you wonder why JFT was so close to F-16 in its parameters?

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## SBD-3

pshamim said:


> By the way, China has already unveiled at one of their airshows the ground based Anti-stealth radar which interestingley resembles the Czech Vara radar. China tried to acquire the Vera but US put tremendous pressure on Czechs to not oblige . Pakistan was in possession of Vera when it leased one from the czecks but before it could obtain it, US bought the technology and the factory. Chinese have claimed that the radar is able to detect a F-22 at 1800 km.
> 
> But news of an airborne anti-stealth radar is baffling. if true, it has the potential of destroying any advantages that some will enjoy with their Stealth aircrafts.


Sir even the Ukrainians, i think, came forward with Kolchuga radar claiming to be able to detect stealth aircraft but unless this technology is not tested, its reliability will always remain in question


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## SBD-3

IceCold said:


> Yes it is hard to believe. How long has it been since the J-20 came into existence. Heck J-20 hasnt even cleared the testing phase. Its a long way from getting inducted and becoming fully operational. Compare that to the time since the US has stealth technology. If J-20 is the bench mark for anti stealth radars, then good luck with finding the likes of F-22. Both China and Russia are far behind the US interms of stealth. Is it really that hard to accept?
> And no i am not high so shut up and learn some manners on how to debate with other members on the forum. I haven't disrespected China or its capabilities just stating the truth bluntly.


Cool down my man....at times temperature is high but dont let it slip out of your hands....

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## pshamim

hasnain0099 said:


> Sir even the Ukrainians, i think, came forward with Kolchuga radar claiming to be able to detect stealth aircraft but unless this technology is not tested, its reliability will always remain in question



Yes, the Ukraine has cooperated with Chinese according to some reports. 
While employed with Lockheed Martin, I did hear about the development of anti-stealth radar, I never heard that its detection ability was dependent solely on detecting a F-22. Extremely small observable objects and different stimulation techniques were used to test the radar. incidently one of project scientist was from Pakistan who retired from LM and now lives and works in Pakistan. 

As far as China is concerned, Australians are said to be the ones who developed an anti stealth capability in their Jindalee Operational Radar Network. Chinese are rumored to have built upon and replicated the Australian system . So it is totally wrong that you are dependent on developing a F-22 to test and detect.

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## Beast

IceCold said:


> Yes it is hard to believe. How long has it been since the J-20 came into existence. Heck J-20 hasnt even cleared the testing phase. Its a long way from getting inducted and becoming fully operational. Compare that to the time since the US has stealth technology. If J-20 is the bench mark for anti stealth radars, then good luck with finding the likes of F-22. Both China and Russia are far behind the US interms of stealth. Is it really that hard to accept?
> And no i am not high so shut up and learn some manners on how to debate with other members on the forum. I haven't disrespected China or its capabilities just stating the truth bluntly.



Your blind faith with American will bring you no further. J-20 indeed is a bench mark against F-22 in term of stealth. Even the pentagon is speechless when J-20 first appear. I still remember when T-50 first appear. US defence force spokesman immediately make some statement regarding T-50, claiming it unstealthy and skceptical about its stealth profile. But when J-20 appears, they only claim it will be operation many years laters. Of cos, those are just reassuring words for themselves and the public. Layman like you will be easily taken and thinking American supremacy will last many more decades..

I believe you have read too many US propanganda website and fell into the American media trap. US media like to protray themselves as invincible and nobody come close to them. Indeed , the US may still lead many things currently. But when comes to stealth and J-20. It is no way behind F-22. The only concern maybe the rear aspect of the engine. But that might not be the final design as they are waiting for WS-15 to be ready.

Read more deversify sources and broaden your mind. Do not always live in the Uncle Sam world...

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## SBD-3

Beast said:


> Are you high on drugs or what? Then J-20 of China is what? We are not talking somalia developing an anti-stealth radar who has no history of having any stealth fighter jet..
> 
> We are talking about CHINA! Is it really so hard to believe it?


In a way he is correct, because to have an antidote one needs a venom first. Anything coming from USA will be bench-marked against F-22, on the other hand China and Russia dont have this liberty...Thats what he was trying to say


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## Ethnic

Beast said:


> The only concern maybe the rear aspect of the engine. But that might not be the final design as they are waiting for WS-15 to be ready.



I do hope that the next J-20 prototype would be similar in engine nozzle to the F-22,btw what engine is J-20 currently running on?


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## Beast

Ethnic said:


> I do hope that the next J-20 prototype would be similar in engine nozzle to the F-22,btw what engine is J-20 currently running on?



WS-10G........

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## SBD-3

Beast said:


> WS-10G........


WS-10G....? If it were operational already why didnt they test it on J-10B?...I mean WS-10G is on board J-20 while J-10B still with WS-10A or B?...makes me curious


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## Beast

hasnain0099 said:


> WS-10G....? If it were operational already why didnt they test it on J-10B?...I mean WS-10G is on board J-20 while J-10B still with WS-10A or B?...makes me curious



WS-10G is thought to be an overclock WS-10 which will have shortnen lifespan(more superior engine blade but less durable) but upthrust engine. WS-10G is just a temporary measure.

Not really good for operational aircraft but will be enough for a test prototype since J-20 need a bigger thrust engines.

Remember, the J-10B testing now is very likely to be a finalise and operational version. Its need a good,reliable and decent lifespan engine for operational unit. Final engine for J-20 is WS-15, not WS-10G..

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## pshamim

Beast said:


> WS-10G is thought to be an overclock WS-10 which will have shortnen lifespan(more superior engine blade but less durable) but upthrust engine. WS-10G is just a temporary measure.
> 
> Not really good for operational aircraft but will be enough for a test prototype since J-20 need a bigger thrust engines.
> 
> Remember, the J-10B testing now is very likely to be a finalise and operational version. Its need a good,reliable and decent lifespan engine for operational unit. Final engine for J-20 is WS-15, not WS-10G..



Totally agree with your answer. I also think that WS-B was upthrusted for testing purpose only and WS-15 will be the ultimate engine for J-20

J-10B is slated to have the WS-10B.

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## Mani2020

pshamim said:


> The news/rumors about this type of radar is not new. They have been appearing consistently in Chinese pressfor for the last two years. l*ast i saw was a news item from Chinese press that this radar was being tested on a Chinese UAV*. This time, this rumor was eyectaching because it mentioned for the first time that radar was being tested on a J-10B
> 
> There have been reports that USA is also developing this capability as well if they have not done so already.



Here is the news you are talking about

*DWL002 "Anti-Stealth" Radar Allegedly Tested on SAC Darksword UCAV*

High-precision measurement technology and communication transmission technology, to achieve the goal of accurate positioning. The system relies on GPS or other positioning satellite positioning technology (including China's "Compass" system), and the detection accuracy and time synchronization inseparable. The center of the surveillance system and other surveillance station terminal must maintain accurate time synchronization, or time difference calculated does not make sense. There are many ways to achieve time synchronization, the best way is to have received all the reconnaissance satellite receiving station (such as China's "long river II" systems have this capability, precision 10-6 seconds; the next step such as "Compass" system global network is successful, it will provide more accurate timing ability) of the grant, this approach not only high accuracy but also to achieve global coverage. Reported the actual accuracy of the system can reach 2% ~ 3% (CEP).

Ability to identify a target

Obtain the target location information in the same time, the carrier frequency can be targets, signal intelligence and other forms of information, through its own radiation and the radiation source database platform to achieve recognition.

Use effect

Stealth technology has changed the method of air combat, in particular, stealth aircraft and precision guided weapons, the combination of greatly improved operational efficiency, changing the offensive and defensive strategic balance. The development of anti-stealth technology and weapons systems have become an important and urgent task, and anti-stealth research or the development of stealth technology and the driving force of a stimulus, but also check to verify the performance of their indispensable weapons and stealth means.

DWL002 passive detection radar system is a can of air, ground and sea targets to locate, identify and track the electronic intelligence detection system, which can be used as a passive three-dimensional radar, range up to 500 km. It is a strategic and tactical electronic intelligence and passive surveillance systems. Itself does not radiate electromagnetic signals, but the use of external non-cooperative (ie radiation and radar, "do not take the world", there is no direct relationship between coordinated operations) of the radiation source to detect and locate. Difficult to deal with active radar stealth air targets, while the ears of the system are sharp-eyed soul, able to detect the target even if it is issued by weak or electromagnetic transient electromagnetic signal reflected signals, immediately to targets on the radar screen visible. The layout of the system is usually composed by the four sub-stations: the main station as an electronic warfare center, the analysis and processing center, generally located in the central area, the other three signal receiving stations are located in the surrounding areas, round or curved layout to the main station the layout of the center circle, the system started after deployment, the distance between station and station 50 km. Located in front of the terminal to capture electromagnetic signals to the target immediately after the signal sent to the Electronic Warfare Center, station, central station using multi-directional cross-cutting and other methods to detect the location of targets, the target height of the signal captured by the receiving station to determine, to coordinate the target location.

When the system is deployed in place, according to the command center of the command, simultaneously on land, sea and air search for the passive early warning and reconnaissance. Invisible to the radar target detection, for example, when the target appears, it will certainly be passing through the airspace of the various types of electromagnetic waves, including military radar, microwave communications, civilian radio broadcasting, television transmission of civil, civil microwave communications, the Mobile phone base stations and other class a certain perturbation signal, which is like the calm water in the flying swallow the water after grazing will have a slight ripple, will cause some signal reflection. DWL002 is able to receive and analyze the master of weak electromagnetic signal reflection and analysis of immediate settlement through the center of the computer calculated the corresponding data, thereby to determine the source of the coordinate of the location of signal reflection parameters, and then, through the data link or other information transmission channel, these parameters are passed to one's own anti-aircraft missile units on the ground or air forces, resulting in the most appropriate time to get the opportunity to attack the enemy's stealth targets.

Allegedly, the Chinese used to test DWL002 target the enemy capability to detect stealth simulation goal is to just show up in recent years, cross-section of radar reflectivity is less than 0.01 square meters of "Dark Sword" stealth unmanned test machine. Based on the data, this detection system can accurately identify and determine the location of the air properties stealth targets, and high positioning accuracy, which can be with my air field air defense forces to use.

If you deal with other non-stealth target, China DWL002 more at ease.

In addition to the battlefield as a general early warning and reconnaissance tasks, all of the other effect is the passive radar for air defense surveillance radar main, reduced exposure to the electromagnetic characteristics of other radar and location opportunities for each other in this area of electronic surveillance without power and return, this role is very great significance! United StatesAir ForceIn recent years, the war, why can often play a large exchange ratio of air superiority? It's tactical stealth aircraft are often the first to use pre-ground surveillance radar system a good clean out, so that the other types of radar in the absence of early warning aircraft and air in the case of the blind can not command a decent state of air combat, the aircraft can take off only by virtue of their capability to detect conflicts, often only were bashing, it is impossible to obtain any record!

The system not only has excellent performance of anti-stealth, and not because of its own to any electromagnetic radiation, it can be against enemy electronic jamming and anti-radiation missiles to destroy the survival ability. Passive radar system eliminates the need for expensive high-power transmitter, transceiver switches and related electronic equipment, making the system significantly reduced manufacturing and maintenance costs, lower life cycle cost, and time-domain all-weather and all work effectively.

The current development status

Currently, there are many countries interested in the application of passive detection technology.  Lockheed Martin is the first one of the companies involved in the field, allegedly relying on television and radio transmitters, the passive detection range of the system to 220 km.


U.S. Department of Defense and the Defense Research Projects Agency in advance the University of Washington, Georgia Tech University and other universities and companies such as Raytheon, have carried out research in this field. In Europe, France also carried out the corresponding technical studies, demonstrated a prototype system of Italy, the UK is studying the passive coherent radar and "cellular" radar (Celldar), Russia and Ukraine developed the "armor" radar, the Czech Republic has developed a well-known The "Villa"-E Passive Radar and export many countries.

Stealth aircraft in the face of a direct threat to the United States and, therefore, special attention to anti-stealth technology research. With the exception of Southwest Research Institute developed DWL002 electronic devices, but China has also successfully developed the YLC-20 measured bistatic passive radar system, to and positioning, both of the radar function is almost, but DWL002 something more advanced. Same resonant radar detecting stealth targets are also built in 2001, up to 2,000 km from its role, in addition, said China has also developed a dedicated to detecting stealth aircraft, JY-27 solid-state VHF Radar, to detect not only more effective stealth target, and to anti-radiation missile attack.

As the saying goes, there must be a spear, shield, the development of stealth technology in today's world also gave birth to more anti-stealth technology. Now or in development initiatives and other means of anti-stealth technology also includes the long-wave or millimeter wave radar, carrier-free ultra-wide band radar, laser radar and infrared detection systems, passive radio frequency detection technology, Earth's magnetic field variability detection technology.

To fight against stealth aircraft, they must take various measures and means comprehensive. Reliable anti-stealth detection / attack system, the key is to form a different principle and the complexity of the work of different wavelengths on the sensor network. An important part of this network includes not only the sensor itself, but also on the different sources of data collection, processing, correlation and display process. In addition, in order to achieve the required high detection probability of interception system to provide precise target data, the location of the sensor (not only to the territory along the border and deployed in depth, including air, space guard) is also critical. Therefore, the future of the anti-stealth detection system, is likely to be land, sea, air, space an integrated system, the development of radar, passive detection, perhaps the key point.

China DWL002 passive detection radar system is the world's most advanced anti-stealth aircraft's radar system, its main performance is better than similar foreign radar, therefore, expected that the system will be a lot of the same stealth aircraft threats facing the country of choice. (Guang-Wen Chen)


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## pshamim

thanks Mani for digging out the news. There has also been news about tests on J-10B. Can you find it.


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## pshamim

pshamim said:


> thanks Mani for digging out the news. There has also been news about tests on J-10B. Can you find it.



Never mind. Here is an exerpt of the news item on Chinese website. Need to read to the end.

Japanese news media that China announced in radar, one of the small pod system, has been in the F-10B on the experiment. &#20182;&#26159;&#21453;&#38544;&#36523;&#30340;&#26368;&#22909;&#25163;&#27573;&#12290; He is the best means of anti-stealth. &#22240;&#27492;&#65292;F22&#38656;&#35201;&#22312;&#23545;&#20184;&#27516;10&#26102;&#20505;&#65292;"&#24320;&#36275;&#39532;&#21147;&#65292;&#25552;&#36215;&#31934;&#31070;&#65292;&#36319;&#30528;&#39044;&#35686;"&#12290; Therefore, F22 F-10 needs to deal with when the "full steam ahead, lift the spirit, along with early warning

Google Translate

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## Mani2020

pshamim said:


> Never mind. Here is an exerpt of the news item on Chinese website. Need to read to the end.
> 
> Japanese news media that China announced in radar, one of the small pod system, has been in the F-10B on the experiment. &#20182;&#26159;&#21453;&#38544;&#36523;&#30340;&#26368;&#22909;&#25163;&#27573;&#12290; He is the best means of anti-stealth. &#22240;&#27492;&#65292;F22&#38656;&#35201;&#22312;&#23545;&#20184;&#27516;10&#26102;&#20505;&#65292;"&#24320;&#36275;&#39532;&#21147;&#65292;&#25552;&#36215;&#31934;&#31070;&#65292;&#36319;&#30528;&#39044;&#35686;"&#12290; Therefore, F22 F-10 needs to deal with when the "full steam ahead, lift the spirit, along with early warning
> 
> Google Translate



The translation is pretty awful by google ,also some words are mis-translated , so its a hard read sir, but one can get the overall idea from the article.

But the song in the background is cool, though in Chinese but still a good nut .Did you listen it pshamim sahib?

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## Kompromat

Retractable IFR probe would be nice.


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## SBD-3

Aeronaut said:


> Retractable IFR probe would be nice.


The impact will be marginal untill you have main stores being external, why to incur extra cost when you know you cant fly with clean body...


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## ziaulislam

if superior radars do come into service..that can negate the stealth of f-35 i.e able to detect at 100km distance to be least..then it really seems useless to invests so much on f-35 stealth features.?


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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> if superior radars do come into service..that can negate the stealth of f-35 i.e able to detect at 100km distance to be least..then it really seems useless to invests so much on f-35 stealth features.?



Sir,

It don't work that way---enemy aircraft will take out the ground radars in due time----regardless of what kind of radar you have---if you don't have the right compliment of aircraft and missile defence to back it up----it will be toast----. You will have to have aircraft with offencive strike capabilties to match the enemy's aircraft capabilities to have some breathing room.

Al radars have inherent weaknesses----being static---they are vulnerable---regardless whatever capabilities they possess.


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## Luftwaffe

ziaulislam said:


> if superior radars do come into service..that can negate the stealth of f-35 i.e able to detect at 100km distance to be least..then it really seems useless to invests so much on f-35 stealth features.?



You cannot stop SEAD dedicated mission, they are specifically dedicated and trained for it. SEAD is supplementary in all out warfare essentially destroying enemy surface-based air defenses. The Americans are specialists in that field they have dedicated squadrons for it and highly train pilots and systems in place.


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## houshanghai

*J-20 Mighty Dragon and J-10B Vigorous Dragon together*






J-20 Mighty Dragon and J-10B prepared for another test flight.





China's most-advanced J-20 stealth fighter parked next to pioneering J-10B with DSI.

[Note: Thank you to Martian and "cd nx1974nx" for the pictures.]

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## SBD-3

houshanghai said:


> *J-20 Mighty Dragon and J-10B Vigorous Dragon together*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-20 Mighty Dragon and J-10B prepared for another test flight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China's most-advanced J-20 stealth fighter parked next to pioneering J-10B with DSI.
> 
> [Note: Thank you to Martian and "cd nx1974nx" for the pictures.]


J-20s nose appears to be bigger than J-10B....Different radar on both platforms?....


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## Mani2020

hasnain0099 said:


> J-20s nose appears to be bigger than J-10B....Different radar on both platforms?....



Thats due to the bigger size of J-20 it can accommodate bigger and more powerful radar, As the AESA radar for J-10B is said to have 1200 TR modules so for 5th generation China is working for something with more modules to differentiate b/w a radar of 4.5 gen and 5th gen aircraft specially when other 5th generation aircrafts in its category are known to have more powerful radars with more than 1500 TR modules, so by increasing the number of modules radar size is due to increase thus resulting in a bigger nose to accommodate it.

The relationship seems to be more of a J-10B and Jf-17's radar , jf-17's nose is relatively smaller than j-10b thus AESA for jf-17 block-2 will be miniaturized form of J-10b in order to accommodate it , unless and untill the nose of jf-17 is re-designed considerably

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## houshanghai

hasnain0099 said:


> J-20s nose appears to be bigger than J-10B....Different radar on both platforms?....



Of course&#65292;j20 and j10b are 2 different AESA radar's options,but both of them from the same place,NanJing 14 radar research institute.however SAC Jxx's AESA radar come from 607 radar research institute.



2 J10B CG(THX blog.sina.com.cn/cadder)

a contrast of J10B PT01 and PT05

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## pshamim

Don't know if it is true but suggession have been made that the recent announcement for a squadron of J-10B may very well be in addition to 32 J-10b/FC-20 that Pakistan will purchase. Per my friends, they cannot confirm the news now but the rumor is heard in PAF circles. If true, numbers of FC-20 will increase to 48.

Wonder how Pakistan will pay for all this, but sources insist that China will help in this regard as it is still cheaper for China to make such investment, keeping IAF divided on two fronts and reduce the possibilty of a confrontation with India that may cost 100s of time more.

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## SBD-3

pshamim said:


> Don't know if it is true but suggession have been made that the recent announcement for a squadron of J-10B may very well be in addition to 32 J-10b/FC-20 that Pakistan will purchase. Per my friends, they cannot confirm the news now but the rumor is heard in PAF circles. If true, numbers of FC-20 will increase to 48.
> 
> Wonder how Pakistan will pay for all this, but sources insist that China will help in this regard as it is still cheaper for China to make such investment, keeping IAF divided on two fronts and reduce the possibilty of a confrontation with India that may cost 100s of time more.


J-10B flyaway cost is around 40-42 Million.....I think PAF would have allocation for 36 sanctioned...but next 12 would cost a billion more (much lesser in fact if the infrastructure is already in place)....not something far beyond the reach of funding....of course a soft loan can always be negotiated...


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## Gandhi G in da house

pshamim said:


> Don't know if it is true but suggession have been made that the recent announcement for a squadron of J-10B may very well be in addition to 32 J-10b/FC-20 that Pakistan will purchase. Per my friends, they cannot confirm the news now but the rumor is heard in PAF circles. If true, numbers of FC-20 will increase to 48.
> 
> Wonder how Pakistan will pay for all this, but sources insist that China will help in this regard as it is still cheaper for China to make such investment, keeping IAF divided on two fronts and reduce the possibilty of a confrontation with India that may cost 100s of time more.



Sir can you please elaborate the second part ? How will Pakistan having more fighters give india divided on more fronts ? And how does China benefit from that ?


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## Kompromat

nick_indian said:


> Sir can you please elaborate the second part ? How will Pakistan having more fighters give india divided on more fronts ? And how does China benefit from that ?



In a two front war as your Generals dream about , divided strengths both in Pakistan and China will render Indian numerical superiority to next to zero. Understand ?


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## ziaulislam

india would nt go at war with china if Pakistan front has atleast 1/3 capablities to india..i thought its a simple fact

*more importantly china knows that india if have a chance will go at war with Pakistan (just like 71).the purpose of such a war will be to swiftly take northern areas without creating international pressure (its a disputed area) and Pakistani nuke weapons response(too quick, too effective)..
this would be a diaster for china , as for china the Pakistani sea route is vital for its future development of western china*

for such a cause a few billion dollars is nothing..china is giving ore AID to african countries..

anyway most of its soft loan..we are expected to pay it back..once economy recovers


in past Pakistan has payed for its equipment in just a recent downfall in economy due to multiple factors like earthquake,floods.terrorism and stupid govt..things can reverse very quickly..
the whole accusation prog is less than 5 billion dollars (jf-17/j-10) Pakistan payed for 4 billion dollars from 2004-2007 to sweden,america and Ukraine etc for airforce so if econmy is going good it isnt a big sum

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## SBD-3

Aeronaut said:


> In a two front war as your Generals dream about , divided strengths both in Pakistan and China will render Indian numerical superiority to next to zero. Understand ?


Its not necessarily a war oriented doctrine....Another purpose may be to Increase the size of Indian military machine to such extent that it starts to bleed the economy. Having high tech stuff on both sides mean equally heavy investments to be done to counter both sides...more money...more strain...more size...and more future needs because once the military complex gets bigger...it can only grow upward....


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## pshamim

nick_indian said:


> Sir can you please elaborate the second part ? How will Pakistan having more fighters give india divided on more fronts ? And how does China benefit from that ?



Nick, Aeronaut and Zia have answered your question.

But if you look at Chinese strategy, it really does not cost China much. Chinese and Pakistanis have intense negoatiations on purchase price. By donating a squadron, it does bring down the price of 32 J-10 by 1/3rd without a price reduction.
Moreever all this money ends up in China and not somewhere else.

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## pshamim

hasnain0099 said:


> Its not necessarily a war oriented doctrine....Another purpose may be to Increase the size of Indian military machine to such extent that it starts to bleed the economy. Having high tech stuff on both sides mean equally heavy investments to be done to counter both sides...more money...more strain...more size...and more future needs because nce the military complex gets bigger...it can only grow upward....



very true, 
India has always felt secure when the parity is 3 to one in its favor. As the numbers increase in Pakistani , India has to raise its numbers 3 fold. Never ending cat and mouse game is definitely frustrating for India.

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## Yeti

pshamim said:


> very true,
> India has always felt secure when the parity is 3 to one in its favor. As the numbers increase in Pakistani , India has to raise its numbers 3 fold. Never ending cat and mouse game is definitely frustrating for India.




No we have 2 fronts to think of nothing to do with 3:1 parity with Pakistan


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## Yeti

Pakistan is not in our minds now we can handle PAF if there was a future war. 

280 sukhoi mki's (super 30 upgrade)
51 Mirages (being upgraded)
69 Mig 29's (upgraded)

+ MRCA in the next few years will be enough to maintain both our western and eastern fronts


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## SBD-3

Yeti said:


> No we have 2 fronts to think of nothing to do with 3:1 parity with Pakistan


No in even the most recent footage about the depletion of IAF squadrons...the top brass ex and recent professionals were talking about one thing...numerical superiority.....Its been the mindset of Indian Military Machine....However, it can be sustained to a limit.....and with Indian military complex is now virtually running toward this as we witness humongous military expenditure being done by Indian Military....for every dollar spent by Pakistan..a 3 dollar or more expenditure is made by India to maintain the cushion...from Chinese policy making, it is a good strategy to accelerate the process by investing in Pakistani military complex....A similar approach is also in initial stages with Srilanka and very soon we may also see it with Bangladesh...1 million Spent by Chinese over there drains out around 3 million from India...not a bad strategy at all, i must say


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## Gandhi G in da house

pshamim said:


> Nick, Aeronaut and Zia have answered your question.
> 
> But if you look at Chinese strategy, it really does not cost China much. Chinese and Pakistanis have intense negoatiations on purchase price. By donating a squadron, it does bring down the price of 32 J-10 by 1/3rd without a price reduction.
> Moreever all this money ends up in China and not somewhere else.



Ok but i don't think there will be a two fornt war with Chipak . That possibility is almost nil . why would China intervene if an indo-pak war happens ?

And as Zia said , o don't think india wants the northern areas from Pak . We have never tried to take it from Pak . India is happy with its part of kashmir and wants status-quo , that is the unofficial stand .


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## SBD-3

Yeti said:


> Pakistan is not in our minds now we can handle PAF if there was a future war.
> 
> 280 sukhoi mki's (super 30 upgrade)
> 51 Mirages (being upgraded)
> 69 Mig 29's (upgraded)
> 
> + MRCA in the next few years will be enough to maintain both our western and eastern fronts


280 sukhoi mki's (super 30 upgrade) 142 operational till now....and yes super 30 upgrade is precisely what i am talking about...stress the military machine
51 Mirages (being upgraded) again huge amount of money being spent on platforms which would not see a frontline service...(French would be jumping in Joy)
69 Mig 29's (upgraded) again investment on a fighter which is not a front liner.....


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## Nitin Goyal

^^^ what u have to counter them ?


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## Gandhi G in da house

hasnain0099 said:


> No in even the most recent footage about the depletion of IAF squadrons...the top brass ex and recent professionals were talking about one thing...numerical superiority.....Its been the mindset of Indian Military Machine....However, it can be sustained to a limit.....and with Indian military complex is now virtually running toward this as we witness humongous military expenditure being done by Indian Military....for every dollar spent by Pakistan..a 3 dollar or more expenditure is made by India to maintain the cushion...from Chinese policy making, it is a good strategy to accelerate the process by investing in Pakistani military complex....A similar approach is also in initial stages with Srilanka and very soon we may also see it with Bangladesh...1 million Spent by Chinese over there drains out around 3 million from India...not a bad strategy at all, i must say



Indian military budget is as it is 5-6 times that of pakistan in absolute numbers . 

About bangladesh and sri lanka , india feels no threat for them as we have no major disputes. Sound a bit far-fetched .But yeah investing in Pakistani military one can understand .


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## pshamim

If you closely look, it does not cost Chinese Government much to raise the anxiety level of India. Even if they donate 16 aircrafts, they subsidize 33% of the cost. But it keeps the money in China, keep the workers and factories busy, and maintain job levels. How long can Indians keep making 10s of billion dollars deals to answer the increased threat perception from Pakistan. mind you that Indians have felt secure if the parity is 3 to one in its favour. They cannot win against Pakistan 1 to 1.

Seems like a smart poker game started by Chinese. If China keeps playing, we may see a lot more various systems that we cannot otherwise buy due to the related prohibitive cost

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## Gandhi G in da house

hasnain0099 said:


> 280 sukhoi mki's (super 30 upgrade) 142 operational till now....and yes super 30 upgrade is precisely what i am talking about...stress the military machine
> 51 Mirages (being upgraded) again huge amount of money being spent on platforms which would not see a frontline service...(French would be jumping in Joy)
> 69 Mig 29's (upgraded) again investment on a fighter which is not a front liner.....




You think a few billion dollars over a period of many years will bleed the Indian economy ? dude indian economy is going to be worth 2 trillion next year growing 8-9 % each year . We already have foreign reserves worth 310 billion dollars .

Building strength in fine but instead of hurting the indian economy these latest purchases by Pakistan may end up hurting pakistani economy more .


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## Nitin Goyal

pshamim said:


> If you closely look, it does not cost Chinese Government much to raise the anxiety level of India. Even if they donate 16 aircrafts, they subsidize 33% of the cost. But it keeps the money in Chine, the worker busy, maintain job levels. How long can Indians keep making 10s of billion dollars deals to answer the increased threat perception from Pakistan. mind you that Indians have felt secure if the parity is 3 to one in its favour. They cannot win against Pakistan 1 to 1.
> 
> Seems like a smart poker game started by Chinese. If China keeps playing, we may see a lot more various systems that we cannot otherwise be cost prohibitive to us.



India defense budget is 10 times of Pakistan while pakistan have to live on soft loans still it is less than 2.5 of our GDP on the other hand your defense budget is increasing day by day. So you don't enjoy anything on that front.

Also we are getting top notch aircrafts like MKI, MCRA, C-17, C 130 , P8i etc. on the other hand you are getting chinese product who are still evolving and are no match of their western counterparts. remember U have to pay premium for the quality


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## SBD-3

nick_indian said:


> Indian military budget is as it is 5-6 times that of pakistan in absolute numbers .
> 
> About bangladesh and sri lanka , india feels no threat for them as we have no major disputes. Sound a bit far-fetched .But yeah investing in Pakistani military one can understand .


Exactly, this is what the policymakers want...expand this to say 10 to 12 times and slowly take it to unsustainable levels....the theory is that military complex is a hole which only gets bigger and bigger...so Chinese want to open it as much as they can and give it every chance to become a black hole


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## Gandhi G in da house

the whole idea of two front war with india sounds impossible almost .It seems like Indian military by preparing for the two font war is preparing for the worst while china and Pakistan are preparing for the best . lol

---------- Post added at 01:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 AM ----------




hasnain0099 said:


> Exactly, this is what the policymakers want...expand this to say 10 to 12 times and slowly take it to unsustainable levels....the theory is that military complex is a hole which only gets bigger and bigger...so Chinese want to open it as much as they can and give it every chance to become a black hole



Indian economy is growing much faster than pakistani economy and hence the disparity in defence budget will naturally increase without putting any pressure on the Indian economy . Apart from that maintaining defence budget of 5-6 times will be enough for india to counter pakistan. We don't have to take it to 10-12 times.


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## Nitin Goyal

hasnain0099 said:


> Exactly, this is what the policymakers want...expand this to say 10 to 12 times and slowly take it to unsustainable levels....the theory is that military complex is a hole which only gets bigger and bigger...so Chinese want to open it as much as they can and give it every chance to become a black hole



Do you mean so say that we are creating more and more deterrent against china ? Isn't that g good to do that with keeping defence budget in check? Win win situation


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## SBD-3

Nitin Goyal said:


> India defense budget is 10 times of Pakistan while pakistan have to live on soft loans still it is less than 2.5 of our GDP on the other hand your defense budget is increasing day by day. So you don't enjoy anything on that front.
> 
> Also we are getting top notch aircrafts like MKI, MCRA, C-17, C 130 , P8i etc. on the other hand you are getting chinese product who are still evolving and are no match of their western counterparts. remember U have to pay premium for the quality


Here the Chinese come with an "antidot" they allow for local production which means localization of platform local costs..no external drainage...and secondly Pakistan dont usually need any plan to keep 1-1 superiority...its even fine with 2-1 superiority.....so every platform purchased by Pakistan triggers three platform purchase by India....


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## Pfpilot

Though I agree with my fellow Pakistanis, is it not a worrying sign that we are ever more reliant on a Chinese political game for something as crucial as defence? Today, granted China needs us as a counter to India, but what if tomorow they find someone else or dont need a diversion to feel secure against the Indian threat...where does that leave Pakistan? In much the similar situation we are in today, in relation to the US no?
I find it a little scary that the financial problems that have plagued us historically, and hence would be unlikely to go away any time soon, leave us at the mercy of more powerful countries playing a game of cat and mouse...doesnt seem like a sustainable strategy.

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## SBD-3

nick_indian said:


> the whole idea of two front war with india sounds impossible almost .It seems like Indian military by preparing for the two font war is preparing for the worst while china and Pakistan are preparing for the best . lol
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Indian economy is growing much faster than pakistani economy and hence the disparity in defence budget will naturally increase without putting any pressure on the Indian economy . Apart from that maintaining defence budget of 5-6 times will be enough for india to counter pakistan. We don't have to take it to 10-12 times.


It can not grow indefinitely at this pace, even the Indian economy has started to cool down as inflation picks up....this is where the danger lies...when an economy is growing...its just like you have a lot of dog food to feed ur beast....but when you suddenly realise that your dog food can not grow for ever but your beast do, this is where the problem starts


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## ziaulislam

ofcourse it has to do with three to one..
in fact India is reluctant even with that it needs a 1 to 10 number really as in 71

thast why they start shouting even when a single f-16 comes..it really look like childish behavior but we see it so often..i mean they were crying with simple military Aid like bullet proof jackets, a few gunship helicopters and few suqadran of f-16s and were telling/pleading america to stop it..
recent suspension of 800 million dollars were brightly welcome in india ..which infact had mostly bullets an d jackets..
does that even make sense!! when these can only be used against militancy..


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## SBD-3

Pfpilot said:


> Though I agree with my fellow Pakistanis, is it not a worrying sign that we are ever more reliant on a Chinese political game for something as crucial as defence? Today, granted China needs us as a counter to India, but what if tomorow they find someone else or dont need a diversion to feel secure against the Indian threat...where does that leave Pakistan? In much the similar situation we are in today, in relation to the US no?
> I find it a little scary that the financial problems that have plagued us historically, and hence would be unlikely to go away any time soon, leave us at the mercy of more powerful countries playing a game of cat and mouse...doesnt seem like a sustainable strategy.


This is where the "antidot" helps....Chinese Pakistan partnership has been from time when China was not a economic giant as it is today. Pakistan is of such economic significance in Asia that even US is forced to keep relationships with Pakistan. The difference between the Chinese and US is that China Pakistan are natural allies....Pakistan can offer China a trade route, a risk free energy corridor, a source of raw materials, a base for setting up export oriented industry near Arabian sea. India centric nature is just an impression created and aided by our Indian friends...Pakistan China relationships always have the potential to evolve to even greater heights, Some people call Pakistan the Isreal of China, I disagree, Israel does not even comes close to yield potential benefits to US as is Pakistan capable for China

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## ziaulislam

Nitin Goyal said:


> ^^^ what u have to counter them ?



PAF will have to 250 jf-17s ,80 f-16s and 60 j-10s 
i personally think JF can handle all above aircrafts in its own home ground in defensive posture with support from awacs and equipped with latest Aesa radar and SD-10B

f-16BLK52 are as good as any aircraft ..j-10 can easly handle su 30 but they will be used for offensive strikes

as always PAF will try maintain a 1/2.5 capablity as it always have(other than lost decade of 90s)
(450 jets vs 800 jets)

---------- Post added at 01:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 AM ----------




nick_indian said:


> Ok so you are assuming that indian economy will not continue to grow between 8-9 % in coming years . Well it was just in one quarter that indian economy just fell below 8 % to 7.8% . Overall the economy will continue to grow at 8 percent . You can have one bad quarter here and there . it even happened with china in their last 30 years of rapid economic growth .Even that 7.8 % is much faster than Pakistan don't you agree ?
> 
> About cooling of economy in the past few years , well india grew by 10.4 % in 2010 according to the IMF i.e faster than China which grew at 10.3 % .And yes almost all economies slowed down due to the recession , not just India.
> 
> going by assumption that india will not grow fast in the future on the basis of one quarter is not a good idea .
> 
> Anyways , we are getting diverted from the main topic. continue discussing the plane.Thank you .



dont know why are you boastin but IMF says china will grow at incredible speed and become largest eco by 2016

india is still growing at under 8 my friend nearly 7 not in double figures as china has for two decades


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## SBD-3

Nitin Goyal said:


> we do not have any danger


When even the most dominant exporters like Germany are faltering, where would others stand?...high unemployment in west is a poison for export oriented countries...when people wont have the money they wont buy, next era is for commodity exporters like Australia and Canda as a person may postpone the purchasing decision of a car...but cant do so for bread,wheat and stuff.....The whole world is betting on emerging markets cooling down amid forthcoming storm i wonder you look backwards


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## sohail.ishaque

Pfpilot said:


> Though I agree with my fellow Pakistanis, is it not a worrying sign that we are ever more reliant on a Chinese political game for something as crucial as defence? Today, granted China needs us as a counter to India, but what if tomorow they find someone else or dont need a diversion to feel secure against the Indian threat...where does that leave Pakistan? In much the similar situation we are in today, in relation to the US no?
> I find it a little scary that the financial problems that have plagued us historically, and hence would be unlikely to go away any time soon, leave us at the mercy of more powerful countries playing a game of cat and mouse...doesnt seem like a sustainable strategy.



Its not about looking for Donars all the time.. Time is going to change very soon.. with Pakistan building Gawadar, Road network, Gas pipeline, Aircraft production facility, Sub production facitlity and other projects(and a better govt then this), Pakistan may enter into a category of healthy resources state...

and secondly China will always need us and we'll always need China... we need them for Tech and other benefits...
they need us for may be as a trade route and also we are a big nation...... heavy investments lie here...

Just a decent govt(which we never had) and the situation is going to change very quickly....


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## Pfpilot

hasnain0099 said:


> This is where the "antidot" helps....Chinese Pakistan partnership has been from time when China was not a economic giant as it is today. Pakistan is of such economic significance in Asia that even US is forced to keep relationships with Pakistan. The difference between the Chinese and US is that China Pakistan are natural allies....Pakistan can offer China a trade route, a risk free energy corridor, a source of raw materials, a base for setting up export oriented industry near Arabian sea. India centric nature is just an impression created and aided by our Indian friends...Pakistan China relationships always have the potential to evolve to even greater heights, Some people call Pakistan the Isreal of China, I disagree, Israel does not even comes close to yield potential benefits to US as is Pakistan capable for China



Thanks for the answer. Do you see Pakistani deliver on all that promise though? I wont be so naive as to assume the current situation will be a long term problem. But the inherent instability, whether it is based in Afghanistan or Balochistan or Karachi or any other place is going be there for the foreseeable future. The Chinese will continue to help till the benefits out weight the short comings, I am just not sure if Pakistan will be able to deliver in time before China loses interest. 
As you mentioned, developing economies that have been booming over the last decade are steadily grounding to a halt due to another downturn in the western economies. If the Chinese face any sort of crunch, doesnt mean they have no money, but just that they cant spend like they do today, will they be as willing to provide us with military machines at such favourable financial terms, which is the only way we are going to be able to maintain a credible deterrent.

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## Jungibaaz

nick_indian said:


> India grew by 7.8 % in last quarters . India did grow 10.4 % last year according to IMF faster than china .
> India v China: The X factor | The Economist
> 
> Read the first paragraph .
> 
> Secondly Isn't pakistan getting 36-48 J-10s ? Or is it 60 as you say ?



my baby cousin grew around *30%* last year....
sadly no IMF report 

*stick to the topic!!!*

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## razgriz19

Jeez people this is a J-10 thread, not SINO vs INDO economy!!

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## ziaulislam

any idea what radar will FC-20 carry..
what wil be the engine in FC-20


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## notorious_eagle

Nitin Goyal said:


> You are not getting the point.
> 
> First-- we are getting top notch quality -- chinese products are still evolving do not posses any serious threat against It's western counterpart.



And what exactly is that topic quality? I am very curious to know, unless you are talking about the Raptor or the F35, there is nothing that India is acquiring that is a game changer in the current scenario. The PESA radar on the MKI certainly was but it was countered. Whatever India purchases, Pakistan will acquire something to counter it. Whatever Chinese weapons we have acquired, we feel confident that we can counter India's so called superior weapons. If we didnt feel confident, Pakistan Armed Forces would have never acquired them. 



Nitin Goyal said:


> Second-- our defence budget is very less as compared to your defence budget as per GDP, so no extra burden on economy, while your economy in dire state and living on aids and loans



Do these aids and loans make these weapons less deadly? Sometimes even i get surprised the sort of logic you Indians come up with .



Nitin Goyal said:


> Third-- War can't be fought with empty pocket (That is the most important)



Indeed, that is why we keep 45 days of supplies in reserve to ensure we don't run out of supplies. And judging from the current level of threat environment, the next war between India and Pakistan is going to be a weeks at MAX.

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## Beast

Pfpilot said:


> Though I agree with my fellow Pakistanis, is it not a worrying sign that we are ever more reliant on a Chinese political game for something as crucial as defence? Today, granted China needs us as a counter to India, but what if tomorow they find someone else or dont need a diversion to feel secure against the Indian threat...where does that leave Pakistan? In much the similar situation we are in today, in relation to the US no?
> I find it a little scary that the financial problems that have plagued us historically, and hence would be unlikely to go away any time soon, leave us at the mercy of more powerful countries playing a game of cat and mouse...doesnt seem like a sustainable strategy.



Do not worry my friend. To trying to imagine China as the next US is a wrong concept. First of all Pakistan is right beside China unlike USA which is 10000km away from pakistan. China friend and aid will not diminished just because some threat is over. Pakistan is our neighbor. Ensuring Pakistan stability is ensuring China stability too,right? Do not be afraid to rely on China. As long as china has the means, help will always be there. Just like North Korea, is aid still pouring into that country? Yes.

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## Beast

Nitin Goyal said:


> You are not getting the point.
> 
> First-- we are getting top notch quality -- chinese products are still evolving do not posses any serious threat against It's western counterpart.
> 
> Second-- our defence budget is very less as compared to your defence budget as per GDP, so no extra burden on economy, while your economy in dire state and living on aids and loans
> 
> Third-- War can't be fought with empty pocket (That is the most important)



Lol. That is some self delusion words for India. Chinese military hardware is already there and probably surpass western countern part. For every new gen weapon they produced. We Chinese are able to match it. J-10b is as good as your euro typhoon. Then as for the meteor, we have the PL-21 equavaleint. We have J-20 a full stealth fighter jet. Yes, USA have F-22 but what does euro have? Nothing to compete against the Chinese and they need to beg uncle Sam for F-35 to save themselves. 

Then India used to boast about having PESA radar but PAF is going to induct j-10b with AESA Faster than you could settle for your MCA.

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## pshamim

Beast said:


> Lol.Then India used to boast about having PESA radar but PAF is going to induct j-10b with AESA Faster than you could settle for your MCA.



There are some pictures I found purported to be those of F-10B Aesa Radar. Unfortunately I do know how to upload them here. Tried with the Advanced option but failed


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## SBD-3

pshamim said:


> There are some pictures I found purported to be those of F-10B Aesa Radar. Unfortunately I do know how to upload them here. Tried with the Advanced option but failed


They have been already uploaded in the back thread....it really amazes me that how China is able to produce three different varients of AESA radar for three different platform....This is i guess the secret of Chinese rapid success, they are quick to add successful technologies to exisiting designs....goodies from J-10 installed on JFT, goodies of JFT installed on J-10B, goodies of J-20 installed on J-10B and story goes on.....quick and efficient


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## conworldus

hasnain0099 said:


> They have been already uploaded in the back thread....it really amazes me that how China is able to produce three different varients of AESA radar for three different platform....This is i guess the secret of Chinese rapid success, they are quick to add successful technologies to exisiting designs....goodies from J-10 installed on JFT, goodies of JFT installed on J-10B, goodies of J-20 installed on J-10B and story goes on.....quick and efficient



The AESA radar is not an issue. China's electronic industry is already one of the best in the world. The thing is that, to power the AESA radar, you do need a more powerful engine which generates more electricity as well. Now that the WS-10 is maturing (finally), the hardest problem is being solved. Radar? A piece of cake that is...


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## Beast

I can't see a thing.


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## Mani2020

Beast said:


> I can't see a thing.



but i am able to see it , may be there has been a problem with it, ok i m going to delete that


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## aimarraul



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## Beast

What is that? J-10B pre zuhai 2012 air performance at Chengdu?

---------- Post added at 05:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:35 PM ----------




Mani2020 said:


> but i am able to see it , may be there has been a problem with it, ok i m going to delete that



Try imgur....


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## houshanghai

the sharper pic of J10B PT05 rolling.
GIF

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## Areesh

Lovely pics and images houshanghai.

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## houshanghai

J10A PL-12-twin-launchers J-10A + 4x PL-12 training rounds(THX RX8800)

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## IHK_PK

IF THAT IS REAL? I WISH I CAN SEE THOSE MANOVERINGS IN PKI SKIES SOON.


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## rcrmj

Yeti said:


> Pakistan is not in our minds now we can handle PAF if there was a future war.
> 
> 280 sukhoi mki's (super 30 upgrade)
> 51 Mirages (being upgraded)
> 69 Mig 29's (upgraded)
> 
> + MRCA in the next few years will be enough to maintain both our western and eastern fronts


 
according to indian's efficiency when all of above projects are achieved, there are going to be 100+ J-20s and 100+ SAC J-2x, 500+ J10Bs, 500+ J-11B/J-15/J-18``so basically 1200+ 4.5 and 5 gen fighters in PLAAF, so please enlighten me how india is going to maintain both western and eastern fronts?

p.s by that time Pakistan is going to have 250+ JF-17/JF-17blockII, and 50+ J-10Bs which without a doubt superior than MKIs, Mirages and Migs (upgrated ones)

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## Bratva

houshanghai said:


> the sharper pic of J10B PT05 rolling.
> GIF



And this special maneuver called?


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## Beast

Vertical rock n roll

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## razgriz19

IHK_PK said:


> IF THAT IS REAL? I WISH I CAN SEE THOSE MANOVERINGS IN PKI SKIES SOON.



Jf-17 did vertical roll in zhuhai air show......
here is a video!


watch it from 4:20!!

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## razgriz19

SORRY IF POSTED EARLIER!

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## houshanghai

J10A WITH 4 SD10A training rounds

THX FEIYANG z&#20013;&#21335;&#28023;&#20445;&#38230;






video thx 8800

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## fatman17

nnChengdu Flies Chinese-powered J-10 Fighter
By: David Donald

August 8, 2011
Military Aircraft 



Aircraft 1035 is the first J-10 to be seen with the Chinese WS-10 engine since the early prototypes. The engine can be distinguished from the Russian AL-31FN by the profile of the nozzle.

The design institute at Chengdu flew a J-10B development aircraft fitted with the indigenous Shenyang Liming WS-10A Taihang engine at the end of July. All previous J-10s, apart from the first few prototypes, have flown with the Russian AL-31FN engine. The aircraft with the homegrown engine is coded &#8220;1035&#8221; and is presumably the fifth J-10B prototype, although that number may include a ground-test article. 

The WS-10 has always been the intended powerplant for the J-10, but problems with its development led to an early switch to the Russian powerplant. The J-10B flight trials suggest that the engine has matured enough to now be considered for a single-engine application. Clearance of the Taihang engine would make the J-10 an &#8220;all-Chinese&#8221; aircraft, available for export without any external restrictions. 

Meanwhile, an uncorroborated report of comments attributed to a high-ranking official at the Chengdu facility stated that the J-10B is about to enter production for the Chinese air force, and that the first unit of approximately 10 aircraft (with AL-31FN engines) could be delivered by year-end. 

According to this same report, production of the J-10B, which features active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar and a diverterless supersonic intake, would proceed alongside that of the J-10A for some time. 





yyyy

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> nnChengdu Flies Chinese-powered J-10 Fighter
> By: David Donald
> 
> August 8, 2011
> Military Aircraft
> 
> 
> 
> Aircraft 1035 is the first J-10 to be seen with the Chinese WS-10 engine since the early prototypes. The engine can be distinguished from the Russian AL-31FN by the profile of the nozzle.
> 
> The design institute at Chengdu flew a J-10B development aircraft fitted with the indigenous Shenyang Liming WS-10A Taihang engine at the end of July. All previous J-10s, apart from the first few prototypes, have flown with the Russian AL-31FN engine. The aircraft with the homegrown engine is coded &#8220;1035&#8221; and is presumably the fifth J-10B prototype, although that number may include a ground-test article.
> 
> The WS-10 has always been the intended powerplant for the J-10, but problems with its development led to an early switch to the Russian powerplant. The J-10B flight trials suggest that the engine has matured enough to now be considered for a single-engine application. Clearance of the Taihang engine would make the J-10 an &#8220;all-Chinese&#8221; aircraft, available for export without any external restrictions.
> 
> Meanwhile, an uncorroborated report of comments attributed to a high-ranking official at the Chengdu facility stated that the J-10B is about to enter production for the Chinese air force, and that the first unit of approximately 10 aircraft (with AL-31FN engines) could be delivered by year-end.
> 
> According to this same report, production of the J-10B, which features active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar and a diverterless supersonic intake, would proceed alongside that of the J-10A for some time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting!! This is contrary to earlier reports that J10A production has been halted and the next production units will be J10Bs. I wonder what is the reason for the change of mind and why is PLAAF continuing to produce J10As when they are already geared up for J10Bs.Does it mean that the two have different roles?
> Araz


----------



## [--Leo--]

fatman17 said:


> nnChengdu Flies Chinese-powered J-10 Fighter
> By: David Donald
> 
> August 8, 2011
> Military Aircraft
> 
> 
> 
> Aircraft 1035 is the first J-10 to be seen with the Chinese WS-10 engine since the early prototypes. The engine can be distinguished from the Russian AL-31FN by the profile of the nozzle.
> 
> The design institute at Chengdu flew a J-10B development aircraft fitted with the indigenous Shenyang Liming WS-10A Taihang engine at the end of July. All previous J-10s, apart from the first few prototypes, have flown with the Russian AL-31FN engine. The aircraft with the homegrown engine is coded &#8220;1035&#8221; and is presumably the fifth J-10B prototype, although that number may include a ground-test article.
> 
> The WS-10 has always been the intended powerplant for the J-10, but problems with its development led to an early switch to the Russian powerplant. The J-10B flight trials suggest that the engine has matured enough to now be considered for a single-engine application. Clearance of the Taihang engine would make the J-10 an &#8220;all-Chinese&#8221; aircraft, available for export without any external restrictions.
> 
> Meanwhile, an uncorroborated report of comments attributed to a high-ranking official at the Chengdu facility stated that the J-10B is about to enter production for the Chinese air force, and that the first unit of approximately 10 aircraft (with AL-31FN engines) could be delivered by year-end.
> 
> According to this same report, production of the J-10B, which features active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar and a diverterless supersonic intake, would proceed alongside that of the J-10A for some time.



Any news about FC-20 when they gona dilver to PAF??


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## Stealth

araz said:


> fatman17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> nnChengdu Flies Chinese-powered J-10 Fighter
> By: David Donald
> 
> August 8, 2011
> Military Aircraft
> 
> 
> 
> Aircraft 1035 is the first J-10 to be seen with the Chinese WS-10 engine since the early prototypes. The engine can be distinguished from the Russian AL-31FN by the profile of the nozzle.
> 
> The design institute at Chengdu flew a J-10B development aircraft fitted with the indigenous Shenyang Liming WS-10A Taihang engine at the end of July. All previous J-10s, apart from the first few prototypes, have flown with the Russian AL-31FN engine. The aircraft with the homegrown engine is coded &#8220;1035&#8221; and is presumably the fifth J-10B prototype, although that number may include a ground-test article.
> 
> The WS-10 has always been the intended powerplant for the J-10, but problems with its development led to an early switch to the Russian powerplant. The J-10B flight trials suggest that the engine has matured enough to now be considered for a single-engine application. Clearance of the Taihang engine would make the J-10 an &#8220;all-Chinese&#8221; aircraft, available for export without any external restrictions.
> 
> Meanwhile, an uncorroborated report of comments attributed to a high-ranking official at the Chengdu facility stated that the J-10B is about to enter production for the Chinese air force, and that the first unit of approximately 10 aircraft (with AL-31FN engines) could be delivered by year-end.
> 
> According to this same report,* production of the J-10B, which features active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar* and a diverterless supersonic intake, would proceed alongside that of the J-10A for some time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting!! This is contrary to earlier reports that J10A production has been halted and the next production units will be J10Bs. I wonder what is the reason for the change of mind and why is PLAAF continuing to produce J10As when they are already geared up for J10Bs.Does it mean that the two have different roles?
> Araz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AESA ? J10B
Click to expand...


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## Drawn_Sword_of_God

can the j10 do the cobra maneuver? 
and is it more agile then f16?


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## burraak

Can't wait to see these part of PAF


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## Beast

Drawn_Sword_of_God said:


> can the j10 do the cobra maneuver?
> and is it more agile then f16?



Yes, J-10A can do a cobra. Comfirm by Lei qiang. The Chinese test pilot of J-10A. But cobra is useless in dogfight. Its a circus show stunt. But if the plane is able to execute this move, more or less will affirm its great agility.

J-10A definitely is build to be more than a match for F-16. Is biggest advantage over F-16 is its canard design which allow it at high attitude, high speed turn which F-16 will not able to match it.


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## S10

araz said:


> fatman17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting!! This is contrary to earlier reports that J10A production has been halted and the next production units will be J10Bs. I wonder what is the reason for the change of mind and why is PLAAF continuing to produce J10As when they are already geared up for J10Bs.Does it mean that the two have different roles?
> Araz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's all in here:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...hin-cac-j-10b-j-20-also-pakistan-related.html
Click to expand...


----------



## [--Leo--]

i wonder why they called J-10 into FC-20 if they are getting J-10


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## Dr. Strangelove

[--Leo--];2068375 said:


> i wonder why they called J-10 into FC-20 if they are getting J-10


fc20 is an export version of j10b for pakistan


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## houshanghai

thx cdf &#21521;&#32769;&#22823;&#21733;&#33268;&#25964;

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## SEAL

How many BVR missiles J-10 can carry in total 6?


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## abaseen99

China's J-10B fighter completes Chengdu test flights
Andre Su 2011-08-25 09:07 (GMT+8)
China's J-10B fighter completes Chengdu test flights

China's J-10B fighter jet has reportedly carried out several successful tests flights at an airport in Chengdu, Sichuan province.

A J-10B prototype made its maiden flight in December 2008. The latest fighter tested in Chengdu was powered by the domestically-produced Shenyang WS-10 engine instead of the original AL-31FN, which was of Russian design.

The fighter is equipped with an electronically scanned array radar and an electronic optic targeting system (EOTS), commonly found on all fourth-generation Russian fighter aircraft such as the Su-27 and MiG-29. The jet's development has likely been aided by China's massive cyberespionage campaigns.

The modified aerodynamic structure of the fighter jet also improves its air combat ability. The new design has developed advanced synergy of combat ability for the new J-10B, unlike the US F16C/D or the French Mirage 2000-5, military analysts said.

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## abaseen99

August 24th, 2011 | Author: Jeremy Parkinson

Recently, J-10B fighters were equipped with China-made Taihang engine and took multiple stereotypes continuous flight on an airport in Chengdu, some aviation enthusiasts said the J- 10B fighters had high degree of difficulty of maneuvering flight, the aircraft&#8217;s performance is rather excellent. Before this, the J-10B fighter jets have been using Russian-made AL-31FN engine, if the engine supply problems, these fighters are easily controlled by others, Taihang engine equipped with the new J-10B flight test aircraft will complete shape, will greatly enhance our military the level of equipment, get rid of the heavy reliance on foreign air force.
J-10B fighter improved aerodynamic structure, through the installation of a new type of airborne fire control radar, a new generation of avionics equipment, and optical radar system, the installation of new electronic warfare devices, and equipped with a domestic Taihang engine, greatly improving the operational performance, its overall combat capability than US-made F-16C / D fighter aircraft and legal Mirage -2000-5.J-10B fighters with new Radar


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## Last Hope



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## Pk_Thunder

---------- Post added at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 AM ----------

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## houshanghai

celebrate August 1, anniversary 2011&#8212;&#8212;J-20 pt01&#65292; JF-17 pt06&#65292;J-10B pt05 &#65288;WS10B&#65289;&#65292;Flight Testing* HD1080p version* 

thx himitechworld

original chinese youku link;

J20 J10

thx &#27721;&#39746;&#38596;&#39118;



NEW PICS OF J10B PT05 












THX FY 8800

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## houshanghai

today,j10b pt05 carried two fuel tanks for test and flew again.

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## SQ8

the second picture is a killer.

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## S10

AESA confirmed by sopc_dsp, who also works for CAC:



> &#36825;&#26550;J10B&#35013;&#30340;&#23601;&#26159;&#24102;&#65320;&#38754;&#23492;&#29983;&#26438;&#30340;&#39564;&#35777;&#22411;AESA&#65292;&#20840;&#31216;&#26159;&#65306;
> &#24102;&#65320;&#38754;&#23492;&#29983;&#26438;&#22797;&#21512;&#25391;&#23376;&#24133;&#23556;&#20803;&#30340;&#26377;&#28304;&#20302;&#21103;&#29923;&#30456;&#25511;&#38453;&#22825;&#32447;
> 
> &#30001;&#20110;&#24120;&#35268;&#30340;&#30456;&#25511;&#38453;&#22825;&#32447;&#23485;&#35282;&#25195;&#25551;&#37117;&#23384;&#22312;&#19981;&#21516;&#31243;&#24230;&#29305;&#28857;&#30340;&#30450;&#28857;&#25928;&#24212;&#65292;&#21335;&#20140;&#30005;&#23376;&#25216;&#26415;&#30740;&#31350;&#25152;&#23545; &#24102;&#65320;&#38754;&#23492;&#29983;&#26438;&#22797;&#21512;&#25391;&#23376;&#24133;&#23556;&#20803;&#38453;&#21015;&#30340;&#36752;&#23556;&#29305;&#24615;&#30740;&#31350;&#34920;&#26126;&#65292;&#24102;&#65320;&#38754;&#23492;&#29983;&#26438;&#22797;&#21512;&#25391;&#23376;&#24133;&#23556;&#20803;&#38453;&#21015;&#22825;&#32447;&#19981;&#20165;&#33021;&#28040;&#38500;&#25195;&#25551;&#30450;&#28857;&#65292;&#32780;&#19988;&#33021;&#25913;&#21892;&#23485;&#35282;&#25195;&#25551;&#24615;&#33021;&#12290;
> &#36825;&#26550;J10B&#35013;&#30340;&#39564;&#35777;&#22411;AESA&#26159;&#23454;&#29616;&#20102;&#23485;&#39057;&#24102;&#12289;&#23485;&#25195;&#25551;&#35282;&#30340;&#22522;&#20110;&#24102;&#65320;&#38754;&#23492;&#29983;&#26438;&#22797;&#21512;&#25391;&#23376;&#24133;&#23556;&#20803;&#25216;&#26415;&#30340;&#26377;&#28304;&#20302;&#21103;&#29923;&#30456;&#25511;&#38453;&#22825;&#32447;&#12290;


*"This J-10B is equipped with an AESA with H antenna array. Normal electronically scanned arrays have blind spots when performing wide angle scanning. To compensate, Nanjing institute developed this H antenna to eliminate the blind spots, as well as improve wide angle scanning capability."*
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Excuse the poor translation. There is alot of technical terms that I don't know how to translate, so some things may have been lost in the translation.

Also by huzhigeng, you all know who he is by now, or should:



> &#30456;&#25511;&#38453;&#22825;&#32447;&#23485;&#35282;&#23485;&#24102;&#25195;&#25551;&#29305;&#24615;&#30740;&#31350;
> &#29579;&#33538;&#24428; &#21335;&#20140;&#30005;&#23376;&#25216;&#26415;&#30740;&#31350;&#25152;
> &#26152;&#22825;&#26202;&#19978;&#29305;&#24847;&#25171;&#30005;&#35805;&#32473;14&#25152;&#30340;&#26576;&#20154;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#20851;&#20110;&#32593;&#19978;10B&#30340;&#38647;&#36798;&#30340;&#20107;&#24773;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#36824;&#21644;&#20182;&#35828;&#36215;&#29579;&#33538;&#24428;&#12290;&#20182;&#24456;&#24778;&#22855;&#12290;&#20182;&#21482;&#26159;&#31505;&#20102;&#31505;&#12290;&#12290;&#35828;&#29579;&#33538;&#24428;&#23601;&#26159;&#19987;&#38376;&#25630;10B&#30340;&#38647;&#36798;&#12290;&#33267;&#20110;&#26159;P&#36824;&#26159;A&#12290;&#20182;&#35828;&#20320;&#19981;&#26159;&#37117;&#30693;&#36947;&#29579;&#33538;&#24428;&#20102;&#12290;&#36825;&#36824;&#29992;&#38382;&#65311;&#29579;&#26159;&#20182;&#30340;&#21516;&#20107;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;


*"Phased array antenna wide-angle scan properties research: Wang Maobin, Nanjing Electronic Technology Research Institute (AKA, 14th Institute)

Called somebody from 14th Institute last night, about the debates on J-10B's radar. Also talked about Wang Maobin. He was surprised and laughed about it, said Wang Maobin is the one responsible for J-10B's radar. Whether it was P (PESA) or A (AESA), he said "you know it's Wang Maobin already, why do you still need to ask?". Wang Maobin was his colleague."*

---------------------------------------------------------------

That should settle the debate now.

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## Bratva

I have noticed wings of J-10 A and B. Did J-10b have Different wings not the delta one like on J-10 A? and The way the wings are made, a slope then a straight wing. What these wings called and what is their specialty over delta or any other wing?


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## cloneman

My favourate J-10 picture

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## araz

houshanghai said:


> today,j10b pt05 carried two fuel tanks for test and flew again.


Glorious pictures. However, I just wondered whether there is any prospect for a wing tip pylon, ala F16. Is it possible? or indeed on the cards. I remember reading a long time ago that PAF had sent a brief regarding J10, requesting incorporation of a wing tip pylon. Does anyone else remember?
Anyways a beautiful bird, cant wait for PAF to get their handson it.
Araz


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## Dil Pakistan

The J10A in post no.4947 above appears to have a spine but J10B in post 4948 above has no spine !!!!Can anyone explain why ????


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## S-A-B-E-R->

Dil Pakistan said:


> The J10A in post no.4947 above appears to have a spine but J10B in post 4948 above has no spine !!!!Can anyone explain why ????


thats a twin seater just like F16 b or d so the spine to accomodate the equipment moved back i think


----------



## SBD-3

araz said:


> Glorious pictures. However, I just wondered whether there is any prospect for a wing tip pylon, ala F16. Is it possible? or indeed on the cards. I remember reading a long time ago that PAF had sent a brief regarding J10, requesting incorporation of a wing tip pylon. Does anyone else remember?
> Anyways a beautiful bird, cant wait for PAF to get their handson it.
> Araz


I think they are trying to make up for it by using Multi Rail Launchers mounted underwing, but I do agree that there could be a wingtip rail for WVRs.


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## krash

Dil Pakistan said:


> The J10A in post no.4947 above appears to have a spine but J10B in post 4948 above has no spine !!!!Can anyone explain why ????



Yes S-A-B-E-R is correct you'll only see the spine on the 'S' version i.e. the duel seater. Post 4947 shows a duel seater while the one in post 4948 is a single seater.

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## Mani2020

Dil Pakistan said:


> The J10A in post no.4947 above appears to have a spine but J10B in post 4948 above has no spine !!!!Can anyone explain why ????





krash said:


> Yes S-A-B-E-R is correct you'll only see the spine on the 'S' version i.e. the duel seater. Post 4947 shows a duel seater while the one in post 4948 is a single seater.



The spine is there in double seater versions to made up for the room occupied by housing the second seat , so a spine is needed to house the electronic stuff which otherwise would have been in place of second seat in single seat version. This spine is also available on PAF's F-16 block 52+ D version

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## Yodhashakti

Any update regarding the aircraft ? 

When will the delivery begin ?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Yodhashakti said:


> Any update regarding the aircraft ?
> 
> When will the delivery begin ?



No rush , we are not in hurry its not like we are going to war with our neighbors but we plan to induct 2014 while retiring bunch of old planes


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## epinephrine

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> No rush , we are not in hurry its not like we are going to war with our neighbors but we plan to induct 2014 while retiring bunch of old planes



india-pak relations r very fragile.a single blast on indian soil by some terrorists is sufficient enough to bring the armies of both countries on the border.


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## Secur

> india-pak relations r very fragile.a single blast on indian soil by some terrorists is sufficient enough to bring the armies of both countries on the border.


 Still nukes will be able to deter India ... Remember 2001-2002 ? So no rush i rather say ... We are fine at the moment

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## fatman17

* J-10/10A Vigorous Dragon - update * 

A PLAAF J-10A was photographed while carrying training rounds of PL-8 and PL-12 AAMs. J-10 (K/JJ10?) is a multi-functional single-engine fighter being developed by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) and 611 Institute. It has been selected by PLAAF as the next generation fighter to replace the obsolete J-7 fighter and Q-5 attack aircraft. The aircraft appears to have an Su-27 style nose and rectangular air intake, an AL-31F type engine, twin nose wheels, and a distinct low-visibility camouflage color scheme. The aircraft also has a large vertical tail plus twin F-16 style ventral stabilizers believed to provide greater stability at high AoA. Its fuselage looks considerably longer compared to Israeli Lavi. Unlike J-7E with double-delta wings, it appears to have a pair of inverted gull wings (i.e. the inner upper portion extends slightly downward, while the outer portion extends flat). Two red dummy PL-8 AAMs have been regularly seen carried under the wing as well. The J-10 project was conceived in the 1984 based on the experience (tailless delta wing and canard foreplanes) with J-9 which was cancelled in 1980 in favor of the less risky J-7C/MIG-21MF project. An early model of J-10 revealed a Mirage 2000 style intake with a center shock cone for better high speed performance and a Lavi style tail section, suggesting a possible connection with the cancelled Israeli fighter (however this was firmly denied by both parties). The change indicates that J-10 has gone through at least one major redesign in its 18-year development period from the initial conventional layout as an air-superiority fighter to the latest semi-stealthy design as a multi-role fighter. This change may reflect a shift of its potential adversaries from former Soviet Mig-29/Su-27 to current American F-15/16/18 after end of the Cold War. The new design is certainly fitted with advanced avionics including a "glass cockpit" (1 wide-angle HUD + 2 monochrome MFD + 1 color MFD), HMS, HOTAS, GPS/INS, air data computer, ARW9101A RWR, Type 634 digital quadruplex FBW, digital fuel management system, mission management system, 1553B databus, and a detachable IFR probe. A new PD fire-control radar (Type 1473? search >120km, track 4-6, engage 2 simultaneously) is also fitted, but the exact designation is still unknown. A variety of newly developed air-to-air (e.g. PL-8 short-range IR guided AAM and PL-12 medium-range active radar guided AAM) and air-to-surface weapons including KD-88 TV guided ASMs and LS-500J LGBs are also expected to be carried under 11 hardpoints. A new twin-rail missile launch pylon was developed to increase the total number of PL-12 MRAAMs it can carry from 2 to 4. Although it was believed to be powered initially by a 27,560lb/12,500kg thrust AL-31FN turbofan, a modified AL-31F which itself powers Su-27/J-11, Russia reportedly had denied China the license to produce the engine locally. As the result, an indigenous engine (WS-10A) may be fitted later in the serial production. Some US military analysts believed that J-10 could pose a serious challenge to F/A-18E in terms of maneuverability. Some specifications of J-10 are (estimated): empty weight 9,750kg, max TO weight 19,277kg, internal fuel 4,500kg, external load 4,500kg, g load +9/-3, max speed Mach 2.0 (high altitude)/Mach 1.2 (1,450km/h @ sea level), TO distance <500m, combat radius 1,100km, dynamic ceiling 20,300m, ferry range 3,200km. The development of J-10 has not been smooth. A full-scale mock-up was built in 1991. The first prototype was set to fly in 1996, powered by a newly developed WS-10 turbofan based on the CFM56 engine core technology. However the development of this indigenous engine suffered serious difficulties and thus the rear fuselage and engine intake were forced to be redesigned in order to accommodate an alternative AL-31FN engine imported from Russia. After a 15-month delay, the first prototype (01/1001) was rolled out in June 1997. It made its maiden flight on March 23, 1998, two years behind the schedule. 6 prototypes (serial numbers 1002-1009) were built undergoing various static and flight tests at CAC in Chengdu and at the CFTE in Yanliang. Subsequently 3 more prototypes were built (1013-1016) as the project was moving into the pre-production phase while PLAAF remained fully committed. The flight test of J-10 was completed by the end of 2003 and the serial production started earlier that year. Approximately two are being produced each month. A total of 300 have been planned. The first J-10 in production standard first flew on June 28, 2002. The initial batches of 50 (54 AL-31FNs were imported between 2002 and 2004) have been produced by CAC, wearing a new gray/light blue paint scheme. Currently the production continues at a rate of 2-3 per month. This rate may increase when the 2nd assembly line is established. The first 9 (?) were delivered to the PLAAF Flight Test & Training Base for evaluation starting from February 2003 (S/N 60x8x). After some delay due the problems of fire-control system, J-10 was finally certified by the end of 2003. The first J-10 regiment was established in 2004 in the PLAAF 44th Division stationed in Yunnan Province facing India. Around 100 may have been produced by 2006 (01-03 batch, S/N 50x5x, 10x4x, 10x3x, 10x2x, 20x0x). J-10 was officially declassified on December 29, 2006. Some improvements have been made during the production, including a WL-9 radio compass antenna dish behind the canopy. A tandem-seat trainer/attack version (J-10S) has been developed too (see below). Further improved variants including J-10A (improved glass cockpit) and J-10B (JF-17 style cockpit, IRST/LR, AESA radar, DSI engine intake, RAM coating) have been developed (see below). An export version (dubbed FC-20?) is also under development. Its first customer is likely to be Pakistan. Currently J-10A is entering the service with PLAAF (04 batch, S/N 50x5x, 30x5x, 60x8x). The August 1 Aerobatic Demonstration Team also flies J-10AY (05 batch) to replace the old J-7GB. The latest image confirmed that PLAN is receiving its first batch of J-10As (06 batch? dubbed J-10AH? S/N 83x4x). 

- Last Updated 9/11/11 

*
J-10S Vigorous Dragon - update* 

A PLAAF 44th Division J-10S (JJ-10?) advanced trainer was taking off. This version features a stretched forward fuselage and a bubble canopy which can be opened as a single piece. An excellent 360° outside view in the rear cockpit is clearly shown in the photo. Its dorsal spine appears to have been enlarged to accommodate electronics displaced by the rear cockpit. In addition to being a trainer for J-10 pilots, J-10S is likely to be converted into an attack aircraft or EW/Wild Weasel anti-radiation aircraft, where it might carry Blue Sky low altitude navigation pod (similar to American LANTIRN pod), laser designation pod, as well as LS-500J LGBs and KD-88 ASMs. First Flight of 01 prototype took place on December 26, 2003. Two prototypes (01/1021 & 03/1023) were built undergoing various flight tests. J-10S passed the state certification in late 2005 and has entered service with PLAAF (S/N 10x4x, 50x5x, 10x3x, 60x8x). In addition, the August 1 Aerobatic Demonstration Team has been flying J-10SY since mid-2010. In late 2010 the first batch of J-10Ss are entering the service with PLAN (dubbed J-10SH? S/N 83x4x) along with J-10As. 

- Last Updated 7/24/11 


*J-10B Vigorous Dragon - update* 

The latest 1035 prototype of the J-10B was photographed at CAC airfield in July 2011, revealing the indigenous WS-10B (?) turbofan engine. This much improved variant (1031 prototype) made its maiden flight on December 23, 2008, powered by a Russian AL-31FN engine. The improvements include a DSI/bump engine inlet which not only cuts weight but also reduces RCS, after a similar design was first tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. The aircraft also features a J-11B style IRST/LR and a wide-angle holographic HUD. IRST enables passive detection of enemy aircraft, making J-10B more stealthy in combat. Its nose appears flatter too, similar to that of American F-16, and fire-control radar is thought to be an X-band AESA developed by the 14th Institute, the first of such type ever being developed for a Chinese fighter aircraft, giving J-10B a stronger multi-target engagement and ECCM capability. Two large pods housing testing equipments are attached under the wings. The tip of vertical tailfin was redesigned as well, featuring a large fairing containing communication and ECM antennas, which resembles that of French Mirage 2000. A rear facing MAWS sensor can be seen underneath the parachute boom. A similar system was tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. RAM coating is also expected in certain areas such as engine inlet and wing leading edges to reduce RCS. The aircraft may be fitted with CFTs in the future to further extend its range. All these improvements suggest that J-10B is equipped with a new generation of integrated electronic system, ranging from radar to EW system. Its mission may be changed from air-superiority to multi-role, such as CAS or EW. For air-superiority mission, normally 6 AAMs (PL-12x4 + PL-8x2, PL-12s are carried underneath the twin-rail launch pylon) can be carried. For CAS mission, normally 2 KD-88 AGMs or LS-500J LGBs can be carried. In addition, the aircraft is expected to be powered eventually by a WS-10B turbofan. Overall J-10B is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60. The 03 prototype first flew in August 2009, with the pitot tube removed from the nose tip. Both 1031 & 1034 prototypes are currently being tested at CFTE. J-10B is very likely to serve as a testbed for various advanced technologies adopted by the 4th generation J-20 (see below) currently under development at CAC thus may not enter the service in large quantity with PLAAF. The production of J-10B is expected to be imminent (07 batch?). 

- Last Updated 9/7/11

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## zdt1987

J-1O might be a good fighter but still not good enough.Really hope that the stealth fighter plane J-20 could come to our Pakistan friends.

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## razgriz19

some new pictures.............

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## ANG

Chinas J-10B fighter to Pak worries India - India - DNA


Chinas J-10B fighter to Pak worries India
Published: Thursday, Aug 4, 2011, 15:26 IST 
By Hemanth CS | Place: Bangalore | Agency: DNA 

The recent official offer of the Chinese to raise a squadron of its home-grown advanced multi-role, all-weather fighter aircraft J-10B to Pakistan has worried Indian defence experts. Pakistan will be the only other country apart from China to have this sophisticated fighter aircraft.

Air Commodore (Retd) Jasjit Singh, director, New Delhi-based Centre for Air Power Studies (CAPS), told DNA: India now not only faces the possibility of a two-front war but has to also deal with a two-front military modernisation programme with China supplying its latest weaponry to Pakistan.

He said India faces a 10-year window of vulnerability as the Indian Air Forces (IAFs) present squadron of 34 is way below the sanctioned strength of 39 squadrons. It will take 10 years for the IAF to get back to its sanctioned strength of 39 squadrons. While Pakistan at present, with 24 squadrons, is raising its strength rapidly with Chinas support, said Singh, who is also the former director of Institute for Defence Studies and Analysis.

Former Vice Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal PK Barbora, however, said Chinas offering Pakistan a squadron of the J-10s may not threaten Indias air superiority. China does not have a great record of producing a world-class aircraft. All they do is reverse engineer and manufacture aircraft. Secondly, by raising just one squadron Pakistan may not benefit much, he said.

However, Pakistani media reports indicate that it is looking at raising two squadrons of the fourth generation aircraft to counter Indias Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, which is still under development. Besides, according to US military and defence technology news website, Defense Update, the Chinese designed Joint Fighter (JF)-17 (commonly known as Thunder) is already under production in Pakistan and is actively being promoted for export in the world market.

Despite his optimism, Air Marshal Barbora warned that the slow pace of Indias defence indigenisation (read LCA Tejas, in particular) is a cause for worry. We will be adding 300 more Su-30 MKIs; getting 126 medium multi role combat aircraft; and upgrading the Mirage 2000s, Jaguars and the MiG-29s. The same cannot be said of some pathetic status of indigenous programmes like the Light Combat Aircraft, which has been delayed for years now, he says.


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## evildeath

Okay let India to worry more from our J10B fighterz then. Insha-Allah.


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## Fieldmarshal

ANG said:


> Chinas J-10B fighter to Pak worries India - India - DNA
> 
> 
> Chinas J-10B fighter to Pak worries India
> Published: Thursday, Aug 4, 2011, 15:26 IST
> By Hemanth CS | Place: Bangalore | Agency: DNA
> 
> The recent official offer of the Chinese to raise a squadron of its home-grown advanced multi-role, all-weather fighter aircraft J-10B to Pakistan has worried Indian defence experts. Pakistan will be the only other country apart from China to have this sophisticated fighter aircraft.
> 
> Air Commodore (Retd) Jasjit Singh, director, New Delhi-based Centre for Air Power Studies (CAPS), told DNA: India now not only faces the possibility of a two-front war but has to also deal with a two-front military modernisation programme with China supplying its latest weaponry to Pakistan.
> 
> He said India faces a 10-year window of vulnerability as the Indian Air Forces (IAFs) present squadron of 34 is way below the sanctioned strength of 39 squadrons. It will take 10 years for the IAF to get back to its sanctioned strength of 39 squadrons. While Pakistan at present, with 24 squadrons, is raising its strength rapidly with Chinas support, said Singh, who is also the former director of Institute for Defence Studies and Analysis.
> 
> Former Vice Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal PK Barbora, however, said Chinas offering Pakistan a squadron of the J-10s may not threaten Indias air superiority. China does not have a great record of producing a world-class aircraft. All they do is reverse engineer and manufacture aircraft. Secondly, by raising just one squadron Pakistan may not benefit much, he said.
> 
> However, Pakistani media reports indicate that it is looking at raising two squadrons of the fourth generation aircraft to counter Indias Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, which is still under development. Besides, according to US military and defence technology news website, Defense Update, the Chinese designed Joint Fighter (JF)-17 (commonly known as Thunder) is already under production in Pakistan and is actively being promoted for export in the world market.
> 
> Despite his optimism, Air Marshal Barbora warned that the slow pace of Indias defence indigenisation (read LCA Tejas, in particular) is a cause for worry. We will be adding 300 more Su-30 MKIs; getting 126 medium multi role combat aircraft; and upgrading the Mirage 2000s, Jaguars and the MiG-29s. The same cannot be said of some pathetic status of indigenous programmes like the Light Combat Aircraft, which has been delayed for years now, he says.



All credibility in the article was lost when the author penned the following lines *'looking at raising two squadrons of the fourth generation aircraft to counter Indias Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, which is still under development'* .

india needs to field the lca first for PAF to "counter it" with a ft-5 let alone a third gen ac.

If 300 mki and couple of hundred upgraded mig29, mirage 2000 and jaguars cant deal with the threat and u need a failure of an a/c (LCA) than it surely points towards a deep inferiority complex and a sense of insecurity. 
Guess the 1000 years of Muslim rule has done u in for life.


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## Black Widow

Fieldmarshal said:


> All credibility in the article was lost when the author penned the following lines *'looking at raising two squadrons of the fourth generation aircraft to counter Indias Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, which is still under development'* .
> 
> india needs to field the lca first for PAF to "counter it" with a ft-5 let alone a third gen ac.
> 
> If 300 mki and couple of hundred upgraded mig29, mirage 2000 and jaguars cant deal with the threat and u need a failure of an a/c (LCA) than it surely points towards a deep inferiority complex and a sense of insecurity.
> *Guess the 1000 years of Muslim rule has done u in for life.*




So you too believe this bed-time story??? Rest of your comments are un-answerable...


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## BATMAN

J10B..OMG.. Indians acknowledging the presence of J10B !!!!!!!!!!

Finally, its official.... I hope no Indian on this forum will ever again dispute J10B.

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## SBD-3

Fieldmarshal said:


> All credibility in the article was lost when the author penned the following lines *'looking at raising two squadrons of the fourth generation aircraft to counter India&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, which is still under development'* .
> 
> india needs to field the lca first for PAF to "counter it" with a ft-5 let alone a third gen ac.
> 
> If 300 mki and couple of hundred upgraded mig29, mirage 2000 and jaguars cant deal with the threat and u need a failure of an a/c (LCA) than it surely points towards a deep inferiority complex and a sense of insecurity.
> Guess the 1000 years of Muslim rule has done u in for life.


Indian media IMHO deliberately tries to downplay PAF, (I am still not able to understand why do they do this? pehaps to undermine their nerves, anyways) here is another example


> China, Pak in MoU to develop stealth variant on JF-17 Thunder
> Farnborough, Jul 19 (PTI):
> 
> China and Pakistan have reportedly signed a memorandum of understanding* to develop a stealth version of a light-weight fighter *aircraft being jointly produced by them to *match MiG-21 warplane, a work horse of the Indian Air Force. *
> 
> JF-17 Thunder, also known as FC-1, being jointly built by Kamra-based Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and Chengdu Aerospace Company (CAC) today made its first appearance at an international air show having flown in here after making refueling stops in Saudi Arabia and Turkey.
> 
> The plane, which has been in development in one form or another since 1991, is a symbol of cooperation between China and Pakistan and the first assembled version brought out by the Kamra plant, delivered in November last year, according to 'Show News,' a special issue of defence journal Aviation Week for the Farnborough Air Show.
> 
> "The two (countries) have also reportedly signed a memorandum of understanding to develop a stealth variant of the JF-17 Thunder," it said.
> 
> The journal said that Pakistan Air Force (PAK) is expected to acquire around 250 JF-17s, but this may be a split of 100 in the JF-17 configuration, being displayed at the air show here, and 150 of the stealth multi-role combat aircraft (MCRA) between 2015 and 2025.
> 
> The plane is powered by a Russian-built Klimov RD-93 engine -- a specialised single-engine fighter variant of the Mig 29's RS-33 powerplant. The first prototype of the warplane flew in 2003 and the first two Chinese-made versions were handed over to the PAF in March 2007.
> 
> Show organisers said that the two JF-17 fighter planes will not fly as part of the air show. "The aircraft has not completed its full release to service in Pakistan," the journal said, quoting a member of the flight control committee.
> 
> "Although that full release is only month away, the PAF is also today in what is for them new territory. Farnborough is their very first event of this kind ever," it said.
> China, Pak in MoU to develop stealth variant on JF-17 Thunder


In another example, Indian media report completely omitted F-16s while comparing India and Pakistani airforce numbers.

---------- Post added at 12:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 PM ----------




BATMAN said:


> J10B..OMG.. Indians acknowledging the presence of J10B !!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Finally, its official.... I hope no Indian on this forum will ever again dispute J10B.


J-20 has dropped like a Nuke on Indian nerves, they apparently seem paralyzed thereafter, not to mention brand new J-10B

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## Secur

> China and Pakistan have reportedly signed a memorandum of understanding to develop a stealth version of a light-weight fighter aircraft being jointly produced by them to match MiG-21 warplane, a work horse of the Indian Air Force.


 Was he trying to name JFT BlK 2 as flying coffins ?  ... No , seriously even the most pathetic journalist wouldn't do that after IAF cheif called Tejas Mig 21 ++


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## Black Widow

Secur said:


> Was he trying to name JFT BlK 2 as flying coffins ?  ... No , seriously even the most pathetic journalist wouldn't do that after IAF cheif called Tejas Mig 21 ++




No doubt this news doesn't sound good. Infact me too have some reservation to this article. @ LCA as MiG21++ . Most of the genrals start there career flying MiG21. They are emotionally attached to it. The Indian MiGs are very old, they need to replaced much ago. 

As there emotion is attached to MiG21, they don't like it to be said Flying coffins.. Lets talk bout MiG21 capability. Its one of the best point defense fighter with Mach2 capability. With modern avionics and weapons, its lethal. Looking at its lethal capability, Our general quoted LCA as MiG21++. 

@JF17 Blk II: I Will comment on this machine in appropriate thread...


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## houshanghai

*[HD] J10B PT 05 was being tested (2011 .914)*






J10B PT05 NEW PIC 9.14
































tx feiyang dj1023 AND &#27721;&#39746;&#38596;&#39118;

ZTºº»êÐÛ·ç¡ª¡ª¹÷BÓÖÏÖ½ð¾Õ¿ª| Ó¥»÷³¤¿Õ - ·ÉÑï¾üÊÂ ÐñÈÕ³ö¶«·½£¬¾«²ÊÔÚ·ÉÑï - powered by phpwind.net

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## razgriz19

houshanghai said:


> *[HD] J10B PT 05 was being tested (2011 .914)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J10B PT05 NEW PIC 9.14
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tx feiyang dj1023 AND &#27721;&#39746;&#38596;&#39118;
> 
> ZTºº»êÐÛ·ç¡ª¡ª¹÷BÓÖÏÖ½ð¾Õ¿ª| Ó¥»÷³¤¿Õ - ·ÉÑï¾üÊÂ ÐñÈÕ³ö¶«·½£¬¾«²ÊÔÚ·ÉÑï - powered by phpwind.net



hahaha u beat me!
i was going to post these pictures =D

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## very

@housShangai
Thanks for posting so nice pics.

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## [--Leo--]

which 1 is final prototype?


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## PakShaheen79

I think it is still evolving. Plus many of the systems on board with J-20 are being tested on this bird. We will have to wait for a production model.


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think it is still evolving. Plus many of the systems on board with J-20 are being tested on this bird. We will have to wait for a production model.


This pretty much is the production model, IMHO the fuel tanks are for checking wingload stress or drag? may be....but nevertheless, what needs to be asked is wthether this bird will go to CFTE for weapons integration tests or not because if other prototypes have done this, this should not make anysense because systems on borad are pretty much the same...but anyways, looking for replies.


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## razgriz19

[--Leo--];2114240 said:


> which 1 is final prototype?



probably number 5 that you see above or maybe another one #6.
it will take a while though so just sit tight! in a year or so we might see a production model, judging by the speedy work there.


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## SHkhan

Initially 36 i think!


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## PakShaheen79

hasnain0099 said:


> This pretty much is the production model, IMHO the fuel tanks are for checking wingload stress or drag? may be....but nevertheless, what needs to be asked is wthether this bird will go to CFTE for weapons integration tests or not because if other prototypes have done this, this should not make anysense because systems on borad are pretty much the same...but anyways, looking for replies.



well, I am still certain that this plane is not finalized YET particularly internally. i.e. avionics, ECM/ECCM, optronics etc. Weapon package is not finalized either. PL-12/SD-10 plus PL-9/PL-10 would certainly there but i am not certain if PL-21 would be launched from this platform and if it does one thing would be certain that this plane is going to have a really long range radar. And someone above just asked if this plane would ever go to CFTE, well the answer is yes. prototypes 1031 & 1034 are at CFTE right now.

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## SHkhan

Wt evr it is gud news pakistan...


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## lindily

&#24378;&#28872;&#21516;&#24847;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;


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## SBD-3

Interesting catch...........


> Thrust Vector Engines for the J-10 and Carrier News
> January 20th, 2008
> Richard Fisher, Jr.
> Russian sources stated that China and the Russian Salyut engine concern were in the process of negotiating a future sale of the *AL-31FN engine, but with a axisymmetric thrust vectoring nozzle*. These sources would not state the number of engines in this package, but did confirm previous statements that the *thrust vectored engines were intended to support a Chinese Navy version of the Chengdu J-10 fighter* (this came at a time where J-10B was in development and there was no news of J-10AH) --presumably for aircraft carrier use. In 2005 a Russian source had noted Chinas interest in the thrust vectored modified version of the AL-31FN, but in 2007 *it is now apparent that such a sale is under negotiation*. With its forward stabilizer canard configuration, thrust vectoring for the J-10 could conceivably allow a lower landing speed, or enable a faster recovery take-off from a Bolter, or a failed arrested carrier deck landing. Both capabilities would be of interest to the PLA Navy to increase operational safety. In addition, other sources indicate the PLA will use the thrust-vectored J-10 version to better enable useful payloads to be lifted from the high-altitude bases of the Tibetan Plateau just north of India. Otherwise, thrust vectoring would add more to the already inherit high maneuverability of the J-10s canard configuration. Russian sources claim that the thrust vectoring nozzle will not add additional weight to the engine, which might then require airframe or ballast modifications for aircraft.
> International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Chinese Dimensions of the 2007 Dubai Airshow


and now we had


> China Signs $500 Million Russian Jet Engine Deal, Vedomosti Says
> Chinas Ministry of Defense signed a contract to buy Russian aircraft engines worth $500 million in early June, Vedomosti reported, citing an unidentified personsource close to Russias state arms-selling agency and an unidentified manager of an aviation company.
> 
> The contract is for 123 AL-31FN engines by 2013, the first 13 of which will be delivered later this year, the newspaper said.
> 
> China Signs $500 Million Russian Jet Engine Deal, Vedomosti Says
> Chinas Ministry of Defense signed a contract to buy Russian aircraft engines worth $500 million in early June, Vedomosti reported, citing an unidentified personsource close to Russias state arms-selling agency and an unidentified manager of an aviation company.
> 
> The contract is for* 123 AL-31FN engines by 2013*, the first *13 of which will be delivered later this year, the newspaper said*.
> 
> China Signs $500 Million Russian Jet Engine Deal, Vedomosti Says - Bloomberg


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## PakShaheen79

So what does all this mean? Problems with WS-10A??


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## SHkhan

WT EVR...I LUV Ths AIRCRAFT


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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> So what does all this mean? Problems with WS-10A??


No, It means, there is a very high probability that current AL-31FN engines imported reportedly for PAF have TVC technology embedded in them....I can still recall a news calling these new ones "Improved" AL-31FNs......


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## malikkhawar

j-10b 2011


new video of J-10b


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## houshanghai

hasnain0099 said:


> No, It means, there is a very high probability that current AL-31FN engines imported reportedly for PAF have TVC technology embedded in them....I can still recall a news calling these new ones "Improved" AL-31FNs......


 



AL31FN TVC turbofan ( service for J10) are on display at the 14th Beijing Aviation Expo now.

but chinese WS10B have more thrust than AL31FN and WS10 series will also press ahead with the development of TVC version soon.They have begun to feel worried and Russians are impatient to sell china TVC version AL31FN now  


pics link;
AL31FN TVC turbofan on display at the 14th Beijing Aviation Expo

?-10?????AL-31FN???????????_????_???

AL31FN TVC turbofan on display at the 14th Beijing Aviation Expo videos link;

è¿&#8216;è·ç¦»å®&#382;æ&#8249;ï¼&#353;æ*¼-10ç&#8221;¨æ¶¡è½®é£&#381;æ&#8240;&#8225;å&#8216;å&#352;¨æ&#339;º-è§&#8224;é¢&#8216;-ç&#381;¯ç&#402;æ&#8217;*æ&#352;¥-ç&#381;¯ç&#402;ç½&#8216;è§&#8224;é¢&#8216;-ç&#381;¯ç&#402;ç½&#8216;







*J10B PT05 with WS10B(132KN) new pic*

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## SBD-3

houshanghai said:


> AL31FN TVC turbofan ( service for J10) are on display at the 14th Beijing Aviation Expo now.
> 
> but chinese WS10B have more thrust than AL31FN and WS10 series will also press ahead with the development of TVC version soon.They have begun to feel worried and Russians are impatient to sell china TVC version AL31FN now
> 
> 
> pics link;
> AL31FN TVC turbofan on display at the 14th Beijing Aviation Expo
> 
> ?-10?????AL-31FN???????????_????_???
> 
> AL31FN TVC turbofan on display at the 14th Beijing Aviation Expo videos link;
> 
> è¿è·ç¦»å®æï¼æ*¼-10ç¨æ¶¡è½®é£æåå¨æº-è§é¢-ç¯çæ*æ¥-ç¯çç½è§é¢-ç¯çç½
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *J10B PT05 with WS10B(132KN) new pic*


I think the deal has been signed already, Huzuigang's interview also pointed towards these AL-31FNs being imported for Pakistani Platforms. Thats why I raised this point that even the current btach production of J-10Bs will likely have Al-31FNs before eventually switching to WS-10B...


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## S10

hasnain0099 said:


> I think the deal has been signed already, Huzuigang's interview also pointed towards these AL-31FNs being imported for Pakistani Platforms. Thats why I raised this point that even the current btach production of J-10Bs will likely have Al-31FNs before eventually switching to WS-10B...


You do know huzhigeng also said Pakistan is getting a modified A version right?

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## SBD-3

S10 said:


> You do know huzhigeng also said Pakistan is getting a modified A version right?


Yes indeed, I remember that.....


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## malikkhawar

J-10B fighters are equipped with new radar for continuous shape test
Posted by Zhao Yan 6:33:00 PM, under J-10B fighter | No comments
Recently, J-10B fighters were equipped with China-made Taihang engine and took multiple stereotypes continuous flight on an airport in Chengdu, some aviation enthusiasts said the J- 10B fighters had high degree of difficulty of maneuvering flight, the aircraft's performance is rather excellent. Before this, the J-10B fighter jets have been using Russian-made AL-31FN engine, if the engine supply problems, these fighters are easily controlled by others, Taihang engine equipped with the new J-10B flight test aircraft will complete shape, will greatly enhance our military the level of equipment, get rid of the heavy reliance on foreign air force.
J-10B fighter improved aerodynamic structure, through the installation of a new type of airborne fire control radar, a new generation of avionics equipment, and optical radar system, the installation of new electronic warfare devices, and equipped with a domestic Taihang engine, greatly improving the operational performance, its overall combat capability than US-made F-16C / D fighter aircraft and legal Mirage -2000-5.
new video
[video]http://www.56.com/u15/v_NjI5MzI1ODg.html#sm_st=42[/video]

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## [--Leo--]

could it be semi-stealthpakistani verison FC-20 i think there avionics are quite matchable with erofighter and rafale but question is semi stealth and super cruise these 2 things well i was thinking that FC-20 could go with WS-15 which is on J-20 but not sure about this i saw in wikipedia that on WS-15 is for J-20 and J-10B but not sure which 1 is pakistan is getting


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## cloneman

FWS-15 is still in developing,we won't expect to see it in massive production until 2015.And there

is a long list which is waiting for the FWS-15 like the J-20,the SAC J-XX,after that we can talk 

about to fit the FWS-15 on the J-11 and J-10 variants.A realistic solution is to install the 

improved FWS-10 variants on the future J-10s,the Niming factory is massivelly producing the 

FWS-10 and each block of the FWS-10 has a slightlly improvement on the thrust and life 

span.The FWS-10 still has a lot of room to improve,a 145kgf thrust variant will be great helpful to 

the J-10.

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## houshanghai

hasnain0099 said:


> Yes indeed, I remember that.....



I personally think modified J10A version is PAF's own choice .bcz huzhigeng also said that PLAN's J10As and PAF's modified J10As will be the last batch of J10As, Then J10A's production line will be closed .PLAAF will receive the first batch of J10B by the end of this year.


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## SBD-3

houshanghai said:


> I personally think modified J10A version is PAF's own choice .bcz huzhigeng also said that PLAN's J10As and PAF's modified J10As will be the last batch of J10As, Then J10A's production line will be closed .PLAAF will receive the first batch of J10B by the end of this year.


Even the PAF pilot's (Sliapani...whatever..Do we have pilots named like this? lol) interview apparently gave an impression that he was testing J-10A. But there is some confusion in sources as well. While insiders like EagleHannan point to J-10B as PAF's primary requirement and presence of a test team at CFTE alongwith a Chinese one to evlaute J-10B as a reason for that. Huzhigeng point to the other side. I guess we'll know as the subsequent developments emerge to give a clear picture. But i would do like to ask a question. AL-31FN are not exclusively for PAF, Its is also reported that J-10B prototypes were tested with TVC AL-41 engines sold earlier to China by Russia. Since the current lot of AL-31FN is also TVC, there is a very high probability that these engines will land in both PLAAF and PAF's platforms. However, if PAF goes with J-10A with AL-31FN, then there must be a platform undergoing testing with a TVC engine as a design appraisal for TVC engine would be required for a platform which was orignally not ment to operate with TVC engine. Why AL-31FN would land in PLAAF platforms as well? because WS-10B testing will likely take a considerable time, point in case WS-13 on FC-1. Not to mention the subsequent developments to have a TVC nozzel. It seems logical that PLAAF will also move ahead with AL-31FN for the time being rather than wait for certification of WS-10B

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## malikkhawar

*China signs deal for 150 Russian fighter jet engines: Report
PTI Sep 22, 2011, 04.43pm IST
Russian fighter jet engines|jet engine-maker*

*BEIJING:* Russia's top jet engine-maker has signed an agreement to supply over 100 high powered engines for China's new fleet of fighter jets, but Beijing is yet to ratify the deal as it is apparently miffed by some stiff conditionalties of the deal, a media report said.

"The contract will involve 140 to 150 engines, but it has not been confirmed by authorities in Beijing," Alexander A Drozhzhin, the head of press for SALUT, a top Russian company that manufactures engines for the Su-27 aircraft, regarded as the fourth generation fighter aircraft was quoted as saying by China's state-run Global Times.

A*ccording to US media reports, the Russian state arms exporter, Rosoboronexport (ROE), announced in July a sale of 123 SALUT-made AL-31FN turbofan engines to China for USD 500 million.*

The engine is a variant of that used in the Su-27 and Su-30MKK/MK2 fighter jets and is designed to be used on China's single-engine J-10 fighter jet, Drozhzhin said.

*The reported deal involves the third series of the AL-31FN, which have a maximum thrust of 12,500 kilogrammes and 2,000-hour service life.
*
The AL-31FNs currently used on China's J-10s have 11,700-kilogramme thrust and 1,500-hour service life, he said.

China's air force development made headlines earlier this year after news about the prototype J-20 stealth plane emerged. However, aircraft engine design and manufacture have been lagging behind, the newspaper said.

China, which has not got much of technological access to both US and EU aviation technology due to restrictions, is developing a range of new planes including the stealth version, but the engines for the most of these planes were still being imported from Russia and Ukraine, mostly case-by -case.

According to defence analysts, the Chinese, who are masters of reverse engineering technology, were bogged down with Russian and Ukraine insistence they should be used only planes and not for reproduction.

It is the same case with the JF-17, being jointly produced by China and Pakistan as the engines for it were being sourced from Russia.

Pakistan plans to get 250 JF-17 in the next few years. About 50 planes were produced last year and China has assured handing over another 50 this year.

Since 2009, China used Taihang engines, developed and produced by the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), have been fitted to the double engine J-11 fighter jets, its J-15 carrier-based variant and an upgraded version of the J-10 single engine fighter.

Lin Zuoming, President AVIC said it had taken 20 years to develop the Taihang, a Chinese engine and that work on the engine was progressing very well.
*source*
China signs deal for 150 Russian fighter jet engines: Report - Economic Times


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## houshanghai

hasnain0099 said:


> Even the PAF pilot's (Sliapani...whatever..Do we have pilots named like this? lol) interview apparently gave an impression that he was testing J-10A. But there is some confusion in sources as well. While insiders like EagleHannan point to J-10B as PAF's primary requirement and presence of a test team at CFTE alongwith a Chinese one to evlaute J-10B as a reason for that. Huzhigeng point to the other side. I guess we'll know as the subsequent developments emerge to give a clear picture. But i would do like to ask a question. AL-31FN are not exclusively for PAF, Its is also reported that J-10B prototypes were tested with TVC AL-41 engines sold earlier to China by Russia. Since the current lot of AL-31FN is also TVC, there is a very high probability that these engines will land in both PLAAF and PAF's platforms. However, if PAF goes with J-10A with AL-31FN, then there must be a platform undergoing testing with a TVC engine as a design appraisal for TVC engine would be required for a platform which was orignally not ment to operate with TVC engine. Why AL-31FN would land in PLAAF platforms as well? because WS-10B testing will likely take a considerable time, point in case WS-13 on FC-1. Not to mention the subsequent developments to have a TVC nozzel. It seems logical that PLAAF will also move ahead with AL-31FN for the time being rather than wait for certification of WS-10B


 J10B (WS10B) is real finalization version and J10B (AL31FN) is only a passing version.All WS10B series or AL31FN will have TVC version. dont know whether PAF will choose to use TVC on FC20.But according to CDF,this batch of TVC version AL31FNs have not signed the contract .
there is no doubt that J10A is more mature and cheaper than J10B.but you know J10B have many J20's new techniques .however j10A havet. 
BTW,huzigeng's words are also not absolutely right.maybe PAF will receive J10B version soon and EagleHannan is right . Who knows? only time will show who is right......

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## fatman17

houshanghai said:


> J10B (WS10B) is real finalization version and J10B (AL31FN) is only a passing version.All WS10B series or AL31FN will have TVC version. dont know whether PAF will choose to use TVC on FC20.But according to CDF,this batch of TVC version AL31FNs have not signed the contract .
> there is no doubt that J10A is more mature and cheaper than J10B.but you know J10B have many J20's new techniques .however j10A havet.
> BTW,huzigeng's words are also not absolutely right.maybe *PAF will receive J10B version *soon and EagleHannan is right . Who knows? only time will show who is right......



but not with the russian engine!


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## cloneman

fatman17 said:


> but not with the russian engine!


 The engine is a complicated issue.it's hard to say the J-10B will not use the AL-31fn,it's a quantity problem that the current FWS-10s production capacity is not big enough to feed the needs. The Niming factory just reached 100 copies of the FWS-10 seriers capacity in 2010 by the official AVIC newspaper report,in 2009 and 2010 they needed to fit the FWS-10s on:
1.around 50 J-11Bs that had no engines and sat on the SAC airfield for two years due to the FWS-10 issue on 2007/2008
2.every year 40 new J-11Bs produced by the SAC and soon 10 copies of the J-15 for the navy
So there's no FWS-10s left for the J-10s which has to rely on the AL-31FN.The situation can only change until 2014 when the second FWS-10 production line is set and reach a 200+ copies capacity.The Niming factory still need time to train the workers making them experenced.Untill 2014 we can talk to fit the FWS-10s massivelly on the J-10s and export it.What will happen to the FWS-10 mostlikely will be:
1.In 2012 a 110 copies capacity reached to fit on 50 J-11s and J-15,40 J-10A and J-10B in CAC have to rely on the AL-31FN
2.In 2013 a 140 copies capactity reached,110 for the J-11s and j-15,rest 30 for the J-10s
3.In 2014 a new line is set to reach 220 copies,110 for the J-11s and J-15,50 for the J-10Bs and the rest to replace the AL-31FN that fitted in the J-10As since 2004 which will need the MLU during the time frame.

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## houshanghai



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## PakShaheen79

^ J-10B is turning into a mature platform now. It is good sign that after one crash of J-10 in 1990's all Chinese prototype proved that China has moved forward considerably in aerodynamics and FBW systems. Mastering engine must be next big target!


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## rcrmj

PakShaheen79 said:


> ^ J-10B is turning into a mature platform now. It is good sign that after one crash of J-10 in 1990's all Chinese prototype proved that China has moved forward considerably in aerodynamics and FBW systems. Mastering engine must be next big target!



hope within few years we can deal with our chronic 'heart' problem.

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## S10

WS-10 program has been hit with one obstacle after another, but overall its future is quite bright. I will give a brief timeline of the program below:

1982: WS-6 cancelled due to technical difficulties and political considerations (leaders wanted to buy from U.S.), leaving China without any modern turbofan engine program.

1987: WS-10 program started, based on American CFM56 (F108) core design.

1987-1992: Development was lagging behind schedule, as China lacked technical expertise and United States withdrew assistance after Tianamen Square Incident.

1992-2000: Help was sought from Russia, and elements of AL-31F was borrowed. At the same time period, increased military spending on R&D as well as foreign help provided a boost to progress.

2002: First trial of the prototype engine, on a J-11A test bed.

2005: Engine was certified for production, and was produced in small numbers for trial use.

2007: Program went into redesign and production briefly ceased after trials revealed major problems, including a crash of J-11B aircraft that killed the pilot.

2009: Further quality control problems were found, leading to several officials being fired/reprimanded.

2010: Second production batch began entering service, with better reliability and performance. J-11B goes into mass production.

2011: First trial on J-10B.

Currently, quality with the engine is no longer a problem. The engine is actually outperforming AL-31F. Now the biggest hurdle to overcome is to increase rate of production. The program spanned nearly two decades, but when it's all said and done, China will no longer need to rely on foreign suppliers.

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## PakShaheen79

Many people actually don't have the idea that there was no problem with WS-10 series engine design as much as it was with manufacturing and quality control which is now being resolved hence the rate of production is kicking up as well.

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## MastanKhan

PakShaheen79 said:


> Many people actually don't have the idea that there was no problem with WS-10 series engine design as much as it was with manufacturing and quality control which is now being resolved hence the rate of production is kicking up as well.



Hi,

Seems like you are not into engines-----there is a simple basic principal for internal combustion gasoline engines---if you have compression, a spark and fuel, the engine will fire---holds true fo diesel as well turbine engines as well---.

There is never ever a problem with an engine ever in design---because in cannot be produced with an improper design-----someone has to be an idiot to manufacture one---and there are no idiots in the world of engine design and manufacture---it is always the critical parts which are exposed to extremely high stresses and performance and the lack of experience and lack of knowledge of their production in the past, a lack of knowledge of material composition creates major problems that may haunt the project for years till the right combinations are met.

It is a breakdown of those critical parts that creates issues- Otherwise an engine is an engine is an engine---.

Now you can run this engine at 60 70 % of its power and you will never have any problem with it----but when you want to go to 100%, that is where the bullsh-it hits the fan-------.

I believe in one of my earlier posts I had mentioned about reverse engineering----you can only reverse engineer so much----for the critical parts---you need insider information----that is where deception comes into force---.

The manufacturer knows that its tech maybe stolen---and reverse engineered----and the company doing it would need information about the make of the critical components---and persistance will payoff---someone will sell off the information----so they may create their own leak---like about the materials used in the compressor blades---.

As they are the designers---they have known that a certain composition will work for a limited number of hours at 100% power out put for say 400 hours engine life---but to have it go for 2000 hours, the composition was slightly changed by them during their research----.

In their best interest---they may leak out the composition of a poorer quality compressor---which may literally put the project back for another 2-3 years or more and sometimes it may totally fail---because of the cost overruns---. So, by intentionally leaking information, they have kept the process in check and under time control----.

The problem over here is that these critical components---their design and composition looks perfect on the paper and computer.


Could there be a similiar deception in case of the kaveri engine or the diesel engine for the indian tank----. It is up for debate.

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## isi admirer

S10 said:


> WS-10 program has been hit with one obstacle after another, but overall its future is quite bright. I will give a brief timeline of the program below:
> 
> 1982: WS-6 cancelled due to technical difficulties and political considerations (leaders wanted to buy from U.S.), leaving China without any modern turbofan engine program.
> 
> 1987: WS-10 program started, based on American CFM56 (F108) core design.
> 
> 1987-1992: Development was lagging behind schedule, as China lacked technical expertise and United States withdrew assistance after Tianamen Square Incident.
> 
> 1992-2000: Help was sought from Russia, and elements of AL-31F was borrowed. At the same time period, increased military spending on R&D as well as foreign help provided a boost to progress.
> 
> 2002: First trial of the prototype engine, on a J-11A test bed.
> 
> 2005: Engine was certified for production, and was produced in small numbers for trial use.
> 
> 2007: Program went into redesign and production briefly ceased after trials revealed major problems, including a crash of J-11B aircraft that killed the pilot.
> 
> 2009: Further quality control problems were found, leading to several officials being fired/reprimanded.
> 
> 2010: Second production batch began entering service, with better reliability and performance. J-11B goes into mass production.
> 
> 2011: First trial on J-10B.
> 
> Currently, quality with the engine is no longer a problem. The engine is actually outperforming AL-31F. Now the biggest hurdle to overcome is to increase rate of production. The program spanned nearly two decades, but when it's all said and done, China will no longer need to rely on foreign suppliers.



this is correct that china is not yet mastered in making engines bt you also know that f22 is also facing some problems bt if if china wants to be a super power he had to go on tne way of self dependance


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## Secur

isi admirer said:


> this is correct that china is not yet mastered in making engines bt you also know that f22 is also facing some problems bt if if china wants to be a super power he had to go on tne way of self dependance


 It has acheived self dependence ... Name me a weapon that China cant/isn't building at the moment ... China has more than sufficient experience in making engines ... It has began work on WS13 and WS15 after mastering WS10 .... What more do you want ?


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## MastanKhan

isi admirer said:


> this is correct that china is not yet mastered in making engines bt you also know that f22 is also facing some problems bt if if china wants to be a super power he had to go on tne way of self dependance



Hi,

You are right---the F 22 is also facing problems. Is there anyone who doesn't face problems in life. Does Paris Hilton faces problems in life---she does---doesn't she.

A baby starts walking and falls---a full grown man trips over and falls----are these incidences the same----they are similiar---. The grown man fell because he did not see or realize the obstruction---the baby fell because it has not yet learnt to stand on its own yet.

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## monitor




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## DANGER-ZONE

Self deleted


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## Mani2020

danger-zone said:


> This is EF-2000 ... not J-10
> See MFD on Right side



my bad can you delete this post


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## PakShaheen79

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Seems like you are not into engines-----there is a simple basic principal for internal combustion gasoline engines---if you have compression, a spark and fuel, the engine will fire---holds true fo diesel as well turbine engines as well---.



Sir thanks for reply, you said correctly, though I never claimed to be an expert on anything but let me remined you that we are discussing here WS-10 which happens to be a turbofan engine which have totally different design and engineering and also physics behind their designs than one used in internal combustion engine. For your reference just posting two schematics of both... please look at them and tell me how you can have such simplistic view about both  and that too after pretending as being an expert.

Internal Combustion







Turbofan








> There is never ever a problem with an engine ever in design---because in cannot be produced with an improper design-----someone has to be an idiot to manufacture one---and there are no idiots in the world of engine design and manufacture---it is always the critical parts which are exposed to extremely high stresses and performance and the lack of experience and lack of knowledge of their production in the past, a lack of knowledge of material composition creates major problems that may haunt the project for years till the right combinations are met.



And what about what type of turbo fan engine we are going to make? Low bypass (used in military jets) or high bypass one (for commercial planes). You see, even before starting work on critical parts, there is a lot of design parameters which one has to incorporate. And this is just one example of it. There are many other factors as well which demand careful design and engineering during the design phase of a turbofan engine.



> It is a breakdown of those critical parts that creates issues- Otherwise an engine is an engine is an engine---.



 this reminds me of Lashkar Raisani's epic quote, "A degree is a degree, irrespective if it is from some authentic university or a vague one". LOLz. Do you really thing that manufacturing a car engine and a modern low bypass turbofan with 7-stage high pressure compressor, short annular combustor with air blast atomizer and air film cooling blade having single crystal nickel-based turbineblades to allow higher intake temperatures and greater engine thrust is the same task? 



> Now you can run this engine at 60 70 % of its power and you will never have any problem with it----but when you want to go to 100%, that is where the bullsh-it hits the fan-------.
> 
> I believe in one of my earlier posts I had mentioned about reverse engineering----you can only reverse engineer so much----for the critical parts---you need insider information----that is where deception comes into force---.



Yup! and that is exactly why there are very few countries who can make a turbofan engine. It is one hell of complicated thing dear. And you never put an engine in a plane with mere 60-70% performance. Simply, because it is not acceptable in military standards. Here comes the issue of ensuring top notch manufacturing plants and assembly lines. Quality control becomes the most critical factor as not only the life of the pilot but the nation which uses that engine in their military jet would depend on the reliability, durability and consistency factors of the engine which all related to the quality control in an assembly line.

Coming back to WS-10,it was suffering with same issue. Not all the engine manufactured in the WS-10 assembly line had issues with them. Some copies were working as per design parameters but other broke down just after 30 hours. Similarly, most of these engines were taking too long to produce desired thrust required for J-10, J-11 etc. All these issues were related to the quality control not engine engineering, which as explained above is not same as making a car engine.



> The manufacturer knows that its tech maybe stolen---and reverse engineered----and the company doing it would need information about the make of the critical components---and persistance will payoff---someone will sell off the information----so they may create their own leak---like about the materials used in the compressor blades---.
> 
> As they are the designers---they have known that a certain composition will work for a limited number of hours at 100% power out put for say 400 hours engine life---but to have it go for 2000 hours, the composition was slightly changed by them during their research----.
> 
> In their best interest---they may leak out the composition of a poorer quality compressor---which may literally put the project back for another 2-3 years or more and sometimes it may totally fail---because of the cost overruns---. So, by intentionally leaking information, they have kept the process in check and under time control----.



 interesting way to evade any attempt of industrial espionage by your opponent. But, certainly, if someone does that to you, you would not sit and relax, your engineers would eventually tell you what is the problem.



> The problem over here is that these critical components---their design and composition looks perfect on the paper and computer.
> 
> 
> Could there be a similiar deception in case of the kaveri engine or the diesel engine for the indian tank----. It is up for debate.



OR, it is just an issue of NOT being able to produce something even after having a design in your computer. One can only produce a complex machine if he has that kind of engineering skills involved and an assembly line equipped well enough with personnel who can apply that complex design. Designing a computer model and bringing it to life are also not same or simple matters. Making turbofan engine design software would require skills related to IA, Software engineering, programming, graphics etc. but making something physical out of that design is an other ball game. It involves mechanical, chemical, material, fluid dynamics, and lots of other sciences and high degree of skills in each of them.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

In order for you to create simplicity in explanation---the description needs to be simple as well----the concept of different engines being similiar is purely on the basis of air, fuel, compression, ignition----once the reader understands that there is similiarity in dissimiliar engine---it makes things easier to comprehend.

That is what you listen to on day one in auto engineering ENGINES 101 class lecture.

You put the piston engine and turbine engine picture in your post------and you don't see the similiarity in both of them---just the parts and form is different----but they are very similiar---air---compression---fuel---ingitnion---the transfer of energy in one is through a crankshaft and the other through the exhaust nozzle.

You reading beyond the message---you have put a lot of effort in your response---but I did not say any of it what you are trying to impose---. I am saying---engines are engines---different forms---different functions----but they are still internal combustion engines---.

You think gas or diesel engine is easy to make----to make a current day high performance engine---is like a billion dollar project---and still at the end of the day---you ask the question was it worth it or should we had bought it from our neighbour---.

Ask our indian colleagues----they have had this experience with both the aircraft engine 'kaveri' and a diesel engine for their tank---and they even had the legitimate blue prints---and no disrespect to my indian colleagues---( just want to share the difficulty of the task ).

You have taken too mucch liberty with what I am saying and putting a different spin on it---either you did not understand what I was saying or you just simply ignored it and put a spin on it.


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## monitor



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## PakShaheen79

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In order for you to create simplicity in explanation---the description needs to be simple as well----the concept of different engines being similiar is purely on the basis of air, fuel, compression, ignition----once the reader understands that there is similiarity in dissimiliar engine---it makes things easier to comprehend.
> 
> That is what you listen to on day one in auto engineering ENGINES 101 class lecture.



Sir the original discussion was about WS-10 TURBOFAN engine and issues with its production quality. Why you are so keen to take the threat to turn into "what is an engine?" issue? You completely lost the orignal discussion which was about WS-10. 



> You put the piston engine and turbine engine picture in your post------and you don't see the similiarity in both of them---just the parts and form is different----but they are very similiar---air---compression---fuel---ingitnion---the transfer of energy in one is through a crankshaft and the other through the exhaust nozzle.
> 
> You reading beyond the message---you have put a lot of effort in your response---but I did not say any of it what you are trying to impose---. I am saying---engines are engines---different forms---different functions----but they are still internal combustion engines---.



Sir they belong to two different classes of engine. And not all the turbofan engines works on internal combustion. there are exceptions as well. BTW, turbofan is a internal airbreathing combustion engine belonging to reaction engine class.



> You think gas or diesel engine is easy to make----to make a current day high performance engine---is like a billion dollar project---and still at the end of the day---you ask the question was it worth it or should we had bought it from our neighbour---.



Nopes, I dont think so. what i am saying is that turbofan engine is more complex than making a car engine. Indeed later is not an easier thing in itself. I neveer said that making car engine is easier but when we compare it with making a low bypass turbofan engine, indeed it is less complicated one.



> Ask our indian colleagues----they have had this experience with both the aircraft engine 'kaveri' and a diesel engine for their tank---and they even had the legitimate blue prints---and no disrespect to my indian colleagues---( just want to share the difficulty of the task ).



This again compliment what i wrote. Indians were not able to produce these engines as they dont have required level of engineering skills and manufacturing maturity. Why Russians would play dirty with them. After all they are biggest Russian arm market in the world.



> You have taken too mucch liberty with what I am saying and putting a different spin on it---either you did not understand what I was saying or you just simply ignored it and put a spin on it.



I am really sorry if you think that way. But please try to recall that it was your comment on post which triggerred this discussion in the first place. Then, instead of going into any kind of technical debate you are trying to pretend that i have twisted your post. 

No sir, that is not me. I think this must end this debate now!

My apologies if I have offended you in any way... I am not replying unless we have some hardcore technical issue here. Dont want to detrack the entire threat.


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## monitor



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## monitor

*J-10B Vigorous Dragon aircraft may be fitted with CFTs in the future to further extend its range.*

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## DANGER-ZONE

monitor said:


>


its EF-2000's Cockpit not J-10's see the right MFD

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## nomi007

i hope that paf is purchasing j-10b nor j-10a


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## Dazzler

Its gonna b "B" and not "A". Take my word for it.

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## Irfan Baloch

monitor said:


>



does the SU3X have a heart burn or just jealousy? The shotdown plane and its plane doesn&#8217;t explain what hit it. Its body is intact and the placement of the flame is strange too doest look like missile impact or cannons either
, the photoshoper was lazy is all I can think of.


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## Najam Khan

Irfan Baloch said:


> does the SU3X have a heart burn or just jealousy? The shotdown plane and its plane doesnt explain what hit it. Its body is intact and the placement of the flame is strange too doest look like missile impact or cannons either
> , the photoshoper was lazy is all I can think of.


 
Unfortunately this pic is from the time(4+ yrs old if iam not mistaken) when i never thought of investing much time in AOA, altitude, weapon configuration and missile impact details etc...as in any work there is always room for improvement and such valuable feedback has helped me to create some good stuff too

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## CallsignAlzaeem

monitor said:


>



This is Typhoon,s cockpit.


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## unicorn



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## MastanKhan

PakShaheen79 said:


> My apologies if I have offended you in any way... I am not replying unless we have some hardcore technical issue here. Dont want to detrack the entire threat.



Hi,

It is not a matter of being offended------anyway here is a definition of an internal combustion engine.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine - Cached 

the link can be pasted intot he search engine--- ( what kind of engine would that be---internal, external,up in the ether or what )

I am pretty sure you must have looked it up.

What you mentioned is possibly a sub category ----.


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## DANGER-ZONE

nabil_05 said:


> Its gonna b "B" and not "A". Take my word for it.



Print screened, Saved link and taken words .... will post every thing on delivery of first batch


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## PakShaheen79

I honestly think that FC-20 would be a tweaked J-10A. J-10B is still in evaluation stage. Only thing i am interested in is which engine it would have? Chinese or Russian? and Does it would have an AESA inside it?


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## Edevelop

For some reason I think that the J-10 A looks good aesthetically than the J-10 B. The air intake is kind of ugly and the radom is too big maybe cuz of the AESA radar.


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## Mabs

nabil_05 said:


> Its gonna b "B" and not "A". Take my word for it.



Egg your house if it's A ?


----------



## krash

cb4 said:


> For some reason I think that the J-10 A looks good aesthetically than the J-10 B. The air intake is kind of ugly and the radom is too big maybe cuz of the AESA radar.



Egg your house for saying that? :p 

Well I guess each to his own


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## Edevelop

It was just as personal opinion but as long as 'A' or 'B' can match any other 4.5 gen aircraft in a fight then everything is all good


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## graphican

Is that your intuition or told by "resource" ? In either case there would remain a margin of error. 

I am recalling somebody from China (probably their Air-Chief or Navel Chief) who had mentioned about the production of J-10A which will continue after 20XX to fulfil Chinese Navy and PAF's orders. That interview would be pretty hard to discard and think PAF was going for J-10Bs. But I wish it is J-10Bs which is ~half-generation ahead of J-10A.


----------



## S10

graphican said:


> Is that your intuition or told by "resource" ? In either case there would remain a margin of error.
> 
> I am recalling somebody from China (probably their Air-Chief or Navel Chief) who had mentioned about the production of J-10A which will continue after 20XX to fulfil Chinese Navy and PAF's orders. That interview would be pretty hard to discard and think PAF was going for J-10Bs. But I wish it is J-10Bs which is ~half-generation ahead of J-10A.


No, the news that Pakistan would be getting a modified J-10A was told by huzhigeng, an employee of CAC design bureau. However, his meant the next few years, not to 2020. I doubt the J-10 production line would still be open by 2020, as China transitions to its next generation fighter planes.


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## abaseen99

Big New Chinese Order for Russian Fighter Engines

AIN DEFENSE PERSPECTIVE » OCTOBER 3, 2011
by VLADIMIR KARNOZOV






Russia has now sold nearly 1,000 AL-31 engines to China, where they power J-10 and J-11 fighters. (Photo: Vladimir Karnozov)
October 3, 2011, 4:45 AM
China has placed additional orders for Russian AL-31-series fighter engines. State arms trade agency Rosoboronexport clinched two big contracts earlier this year. One is for more than 150 AL-31Fs as replacements for earlier engines of same type that power the Su-27/Su-30MKK/MK2 fighters, that are designated J-11 in China. Engines under this contract will be assembled by the Ufa-based UMPO factory.


The second contract is for more than 120 AL-31FN engines to power newly built Chengdu J-10 fighters. Engines under this contract are already being delivered, from the Moscow-based Salut plant.

Speaking to AIN at the Aviation Expo 2011 in Beijing, Salut general director Vladislav Masalov said that negotiations continue on a second batch of nearly 140 AL-31FNs and that a follow-on contract is expected to be signed in October. 

Masalov further said that the grand total of Salut-made AL-31 series engines in China &#8220;is nearing one thousand units.&#8221; To serve them, Salut has established partnerships with Limin Corp. and Tyan Li company in Chengdu on deliveries and manufacturing of spare parts for both the AL-31F and the AL-31FN. Russia has also agreed to provide all necessary maintenance and repair documentation to the Chinese partners. Salut faces many issues pertaining to ramping up production to fill these big Chinese orders, Masalov said. This year the company must increase its production output by 30 to 40 percent to fulfill the Chinese contracts. &#8220;Certainly there is some pressure on us, with bottlenecks being metal and vendor items,&#8221; Masalov said.

Meanwhile, Salut is negotiating the sale of another 40 AL-31FM1 engines to the Russian Air Force for the Su-27SM upgrade. Twelve have already been ordered. Talks to supply AL-31FM2 versions for the Su-34 continue, Masalov said.http://www.ainonline.com/?q=aviation-news/ain-defense-perspective/2011-10-03/big-new-chinese-order-russian-fighter-engines


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## fatman17

Thursday, October 06, 2011

*Big New Chinese Order for Russian Fighter Engines *

*This news confirms two outstanding rumors -- the PLAAF is not going retrofit its existing SU fleet with the domestic WS-10 Taihang turbofan and the production rate of the WS-10 is not sufficient to cover J-10's production run*.


Big New Chinese Order for Russian Fighter Engines
AIN Defense Perspective » October 3, 2011

http://www.ainonline.com/?q=aviatio...big-new-chinese-order-russian-fighter-engines

by Vladimir Karnozov

Russia has now sold nearly 1,000 AL-31 engines to China, where they power J-10 and J-11 fighters. (Photo: Vladimir Karnozov)
October 3, 2011, 4:45 AM

China has placed additional orders for Russian AL-31-series fighter engines. State arms trade agency Rosoboronexport clinched two big contracts earlier this year. One is for more than 150 AL-31Fs as replacements for earlier engines of same type that power the Su-27/Su-30MKK/MK2 fighters, that are designated J-11 in China. Engines under this contract will be assembled by the Ufa-based UMPO factory.

The second contract is for more than 120 AL-31FN engines to power newly built Chengdu J-10 fighters. Engines under this contract are already being delivered, from the Moscow-based Salut plant.

Speaking to AIN at the Aviation Expo 2011 in Beijing, Salut general director Vladislav Masalov said that negotiations continue on a second batch of nearly 140 AL-31FNs and that a follow-on contract is expected to be signed in October. 

Masalov further said that the grand total of Salut-made AL-31 series engines in China &#8220;is nearing one thousand units.&#8221; To serve them, Salut has established partnerships with Limin Corp. and Tyan Li company in Chengdu on deliveries and manufacturing of spare parts for both the AL-31F and the AL-31FN. Russia has also agreed to provide all necessary maintenance and repair documentation to the Chinese partners. Salut faces many issues pertaining to ramping up production to fill these big Chinese orders, Masalov said. This year the company must increase its production output by 30 to 40 percent to fulfill the Chinese contracts. &#8220;Certainly there is some pressure on us, with bottlenecks being metal and vendor items,&#8221; Masalov said.

Meanwhile, Salut is negotiating the sale of another 40 AL-31FM1 engines to the Russian Air Force for the Su-27SM upgrade. Twelve have already been ordered. Talks to supply AL-31FM2 versions for the Su-34 continue, Masalov said.


_same news with one important point 'highlighted' which means the chinese are not fully satisfied with the WS-10 engine_


----------



## monitor

Chinese J-10S Refuels From PLA-AF H-6U Badger Tanker


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## muse

fatman17 said:


> Thursday, October 06, 2011
> 
> *Big New Chinese Order for Russian Fighter Engines *
> 
> _same news with one important point 'highlighted' which means the chinese are not fully satisfied with the WS-10 engine_


_

Fatman, why isn't this terrible news for PAF?_


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## SBD-3

muse said:


> Fatman, why isn't this terrible news for PAF?


Its not like that.....While J-11s helped maturing WS-10 series, but a comforting factor for them was the presence of *Two* engines thereby increasing the chances of survival in case one of the engine fails in testing. But for a fighter like J-10 and JFT whose sole dependence is on single engine, its an altogether different situation. Since J-10B was due for production even as the end of 2010. I said it earlier that it the AL-31FN order was for PLAAF and PAF both because it didnt make any sense to delay the production of J-10B due to WS-10B being tested or integrating WS-10B prematurely and running a bigger risk. It makes more sense to go with Russian engines for the time being and let WS-10B to mature, a MLU can always be designed for replacement of AL-31FN with then, more mature, WS-10B


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## ANG

Hi, I guess time will tell which engine powers future versions of PAF J-10s. I just hope, that the PAF gets the J-10B and not upgraded J-10As.


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## fatman17

muse said:


> Fatman, why isn't this terrible news for PAF?



this IMO is not good news for the PAF. further i have yet to see any confirmed news that the chinese order for the AL-31 includes a 'few' engines for the J-10B. it is not so. the russians have not given nor the chinese have applied for such clearance. further by just offering 10 J-10B (with WS-10) to the PAF, it is a clear indication that the PAF is 'not sold' on the performance of the WS-10 and would like its pilots to put the WS-10 through a rigourous testing program in its own backyard before giving it a initial IOC.

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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> this IMO is not good news for the PAF. further i have yet to see any confirmed news that the chinese order for the AL-31 includes a 'few' engines for the J-10B. it is not so. the russians have not given nor the chinese have applied for such clearance. further by just offering 10 J-10B (with WS-10) to the PAF, it is a clear indication that the PAF is 'not sold' on the performance of the WS-10 and would like its pilots to put the WS-10 through a rigourous testing program in its own backyard before giving it a initial IOC.


Sir IMHO, J-10As used AL-31F engines.....these are AL-31FN modified engines with Possible TVC nozzel, AFAIK, J-11s seems to be the preferred platforms for WS-10 so these engines are not likely to make their way to J-11s. Rest left are J-10A and J-10B. As i said earlier that if Chinese had opted for WS-10B, then we can say bye bye to J-10B production for couple of more years. So if these engines are for J-10A, then we can not see J-10B before 2014 at least. With CAC going ahead with J-10B this year, the most logical choice is to have AL-31FNs initially and then gradual transformation to WS-10B as the system get certified for J-10B


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## PakShaheen79

All this export of Russian engine is OK. we must understand that Chinese are upgrading their gigantic AF with modern machine and they cannot wait for some engine assembly lines to sort out their quality control issues to boost up the production rate. on the other hand, If we look at the planes being produced it also makes good sense. Some of these engines are for replacement only for earlier engines and then we have J-10A, J-11, J-11B, J-10S etc. in active production so i would not consider it bad news. i would rather think it as part of Chinese strategy to maintain the pace of their modernization drive. Certainly, If PAF is going to get J-10B with WS-10B, by any chance, PAF pilots would not accept a new engine without testing it to their satisfaction. So guys, take a chill pill. Everything is on track.


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## houshanghai

According to cdf(for your reference only)

1.PAF had signed the agreement which are a modified J10As with AL31FN,PLAAF's first batch of J10Bs will be also equiped AL31FN .but PLAAF second batch of J10Bs will be equiped WS10B(13500kgf) .....The real J10B finalization version are also with WS10B and they will be exported.



2.first batch of 123 AL31FNs cause for short Service life of russian AL31FN and china must be import many new AL31FNs to replace old PLAAF J10As's now. The other parts of these AL31FNs will service for PAF

3.The agreement of second batch of 140 AL31FNs which are't still signed now.but view the situation of beijing airshow 2011 as a whole,russian salut were showing AL31FN model which are less thrust of TVC version(12700kgf) but have longer service life(2000 hours).maybe this shows china will import AL31fn version of longer service life not more thrust version.

4.The current problem of WS-10 that china can't make enough of WS10.but there is a large demand for these high-class turbofan engines in china .So china had to import AL31FNs in large quantities from Russian.

5.however with the development of WS10,which have a production capacity of 200 engines a year as of 2014.China will decrease gradually as quantities of import AL31FNs for J10s

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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> Thursday, October 06, 2011
> 
> *Big New Chinese Order for Russian Fighter Engines *
> 
> *This news confirms two outstanding rumors -- the PLAAF is not going retrofit its existing SU fleet with the domestic WS-10 Taihang turbofan and the production rate of the WS-10 is not sufficient to cover J-10's production run*.
> 
> 
> Big New Chinese Order for Russian Fighter Engines
> AIN Defense Perspective » October 3, 2011
> 
> Big New Chinese Order for Russian Fighter Engines | Aviation International News
> 
> by Vladimir Karnozov
> 
> Russia has now sold nearly 1,000 AL-31 engines to China, where they power J-10 and J-11 fighters. (Photo: Vladimir Karnozov)
> October 3, 2011, 4:45 AM
> 
> China has placed additional orders for Russian AL-31-series fighter engines. State arms trade agency Rosoboronexport clinched two big contracts earlier this year. One is for more than 150 AL-31Fs as replacements for earlier engines of same type that power the Su-27/Su-30MKK/MK2 fighters, that are designated J-11 in China. Engines under this contract will be assembled by the Ufa-based UMPO factory.
> 
> The second contract is for more than 120 AL-31FN engines to power newly built Chengdu J-10 fighters. Engines under this contract are already being delivered, from the Moscow-based Salut plant.
> 
> Speaking to AIN at the Aviation Expo 2011 in Beijing, Salut general director Vladislav Masalov said that negotiations continue on a second batch of nearly 140 AL-31FNs and that a follow-on contract is expected to be signed in October.
> 
> Masalov further said that the grand total of Salut-made AL-31 series engines in China &#8220;is nearing one thousand units.&#8221; To serve them, Salut has established partnerships with Limin Corp. and Tyan Li company in Chengdu on deliveries and manufacturing of spare parts for both the AL-31F and the AL-31FN. Russia has also agreed to provide all necessary maintenance and repair documentation to the Chinese partners. Salut faces many issues pertaining to ramping up production to fill these big Chinese orders, Masalov said. This year the company must increase its production output by 30 to 40 percent to fulfill the Chinese contracts. &#8220;Certainly there is some pressure on us, with bottlenecks being metal and vendor items,&#8221; Masalov said.
> 
> Meanwhile, Salut is negotiating the sale of another 40 AL-31FM1 engines to the Russian Air Force for the Su-27SM upgrade. Twelve have already been ordered. Talks to supply AL-31FM2 versions for the Su-34 continue, Masalov said.
> 
> 
> _same news with one important point 'highlighted' which means the chinese are not fully satisfied with the WS-10 engine_


_

Doesn't necessarily means that CAF is not satisfied with the WS-10 engine or that its performance is not upto par, may be they are waiting for it to be more matured or as said, they are not able to make them in numbers as it may compromise the quality, since they were facing quality issues, but that was also 2-3years back news, in 2-3 years time things change a lot. WS-10 variant on J-10B(itself a prototype of something new) speaks something else. Hardly anyone will test a new engine which is not supposedly upto par on a prototype jet itself. Since WS-10 is on J-10B means, Chinese are confident of the engine performance that they have added it to a prototype, and then we have the J-20 prototype supposedly being flown with a Chinese engine too, a WS-10 variant supposedly. Both future top of the line Chinese jets being tested in prototype stagewith Chinese turbofan engines of new origin, says that Chinese are confident of their engines performance and reliability, but main issue is are they currently capable to turn out them in numbers, as even the Russian manufacturers being quoted in the article are showing concerns about ramming up production capacity to meet the new order. 

Also, can the earlier Russian supplied Su-30s & Su-27s integrate WS-10 is a question to be probed. May be the Chinese modified their local produced J-11's to be integrated in future with WS-10, but am not sure about the Russian ones. 

As per my rough estimate, there are atleast 500 or more fighters (300 or so dual engine ones & 200 or so single engined fighters) in the CAF equipped with AL-31 variant engines and replacing them would be one hell of a task, plus Chinese are producing locally J-10s & J-11s in numbers, and Chinese engine may not be upto the mark in the production section to meet that demand for WS-10, thus Russian order is logical. 

300 or so Sukhoi's are in service, thus 600 engines alone are needed for them, then add to them the ones needed for reserve, atleast one engine in spare for every 2 engined fighter may be, so if the calculations are done, its a huge task. 

In simple terms, WS-10 may have matured enough and gone through all the testing benchmarks, but getting them in production in large numbers may be the task for future, till then AL-31s are the alternate option. 

PAF may get the WS-10 equipped jets, since our demand is not in huge numbers, as we would be looking for 2-3 Sqds and at themost may be 1 Sqd per year is inducted._

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## SBD-3

TaimiKhan said:


> Doesn't necessarily means that CAF is not satisfied with the WS-10 engine or that its performance is not upto par, may be they are waiting for it to be more matured or as said, they are not able to make them in numbers as it may compromise the quality, since they were facing quality issues, but that was also 2-3years back news, in 2-3 years time things change a lot. WS-10 variant on J-10B(itself a prototype of something new) speaks something else. Hardly anyone will test a new engine which is not supposedly upto par on a prototype jet itself. Since WS-10 is on J-10B means, Chinese are confident of the engine performance that they have added it to a prototype, and then we have the J-20 prototype supposedly being flown with a Chinese engine too, a WS-10 variant supposedly. Both future top of the line Chinese jets being tested in prototype stagewith Chinese turbofan engines of new origin, says that Chinese are confident of their engines performance and reliability, but main issue is are they currently capable to turn out them in numbers, as even the Russian manufacturers being quoted in the article are showing concerns about ramming up production capacity to meet the new order.
> 
> Also, can the earlier Russian supplied Su-30s & Su-27s integrate WS-10 is a question to be probed. May be the Chinese modified their local produced J-11's to be integrated in future with WS-10, but am not sure about the Russian ones.
> 
> As per my rough estimate, there are atleast 500 or more fighters (300 or so dual engine ones & 200 or so single engined fighters) in the CAF equipped with AL-31 variant engines and replacing them would be one hell of a task, plus Chinese are producing locally J-10s & J-11s in numbers, and Chinese engine may not be upto the mark in the production section to meet that demand for WS-10, thus Russian order is logical.
> 
> 300 or so Sukhoi's are in service, thus 600 engines alone are needed for them, then add to them the ones needed for reserve, atleast one engine in spare for every 2 engined fighter may be, so if the calculations are done, its a huge task.
> 
> In simple terms, WS-10 may have matured enough and gone through all the testing benchmarks, but getting them in production in large numbers may be the task for future, till then AL-31s are the alternate option.
> 
> PAF may get the WS-10 equipped jets, since our demand is not in huge numbers, as we would be looking for 2-3 Sqds and at the most may be 1 Sqd per year is inducted.


Replacement seems an inappropriate idea, I mean if PLAAF is operating such a large number of engines they must have had a decent overhaul infrastructure, Engines would rather be overhauled than scrapped and re imported. Scrapping engines altogether just doesn't make any sense.


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## Storm Force

Dont be surprised if the CHINEASE WS engine is not upto scratch to even the RUSSIAN AFL.

Engine technology is difficult to master. 

AFTER russia only USA UK and France have this cracked


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## TaimiKhan

hasnain0099 said:


> Replacement seems an inappropriate idea, I mean if PLAAF is operating such a large number of engines they must have had a decent overhaul infrastructure, Engines would rather be overhauled than scrapped and re imported. Scrapping engines altogether just doesn't make any sense.



A 100 or so engines for J-11s & same number for J-10s doesn't means they are gonna be used to replace something, they most probably are for the new ones which are being made and some may be used for replacement purposes too. Plus, overhauled things have a life too, a time comes when overhauling may not give you the results you are looking for and the cost may come close to the cost of a new engine, thus the cost benefit analysis may work in favor getting a new engine instead of overhauling repeatedly.


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## monitor




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## Manticore

Reports of J-10B jet crash untrue: Air force - China.org.cn October 10, 2011
Reports of J-10B jet crash untrue: Air force - China.org.cn
Recent reports that a Chinese J-10B fighter jet crashed during a trial flight in northern Shaanxi province have been widely spread on the Internet, but Chinese air force officials say it is 'fake news', reported China News Service Sunday.



The alleged rumor, first published by a blogger in Beijing, attracted broad media attention before being denied by air force officials.

The State Internet Information Office has ordered that the website and individual that first published the 'fake news' be punished according to law, said Chinese air force officials.

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## PakShaheen79

china acquired IL-76 engine test bed. This must be used extensively for WS-10A/B testing. This is the safest way to test turbofan engines. This is for those who think that China test turbofan engines on fighter jets in active PLAAF service 






T first picture of the new Il-76 engine testbed is shown here. The aircraft was modified from a former Russian Il-76SKIP/Be-976 missile tracking aircraft (serial # RA-76456). The modification including the removal of the radar system took place in 2004 at the LII Flight Research Institute and the aircraft was handed over to China in mid-2005. The inner engine on the port side has been converted into an engine testbed, an arrangement similar to Russian Il-76LL engine testbed variant. Two large wingtip pods were retained which now might house engine monitoring instrument. Two small pods of unknown purpose (camera?) can be seen attached to the rear fuselage. The IL-76 engine testbed (serial # 76456/760) has entered the service with CFTE, replacing the old Tu-16 engine testbed. The aircraft is expected to be used for testing the new WS-10 series turbofan engines.

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## vce

hasnain0099 said:


> Replacement seems an inappropriate idea, I mean if PLAAF is operating such a large number of engines they must have had a decent overhaul infrastructure, Engines would rather be overhauled than scrapped and re imported. Scrapping engines altogether just doesn't make any sense.



PLEASE NOTE: the total life of basic version of AL-31F/FN is only 1500 h, time between overhauls(TBO)-500h,far short than the airframe life.



> http://www.npo-saturn.ru/index_b3.php?act=showfull&id=1215429686&sat=7
> ...&#1055;&#1086; &#1089;&#1088;&#1072;&#1074;&#1085;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1102; &#1089; &#1076;&#1074;&#1080;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1103;&#1084;&#1080; &#1040;&#1051;-31&#1060; &#1074; 2-2,6 &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1072; &#1074;&#1086;&#1079;&#1088;&#1086;&#1089;&#1083;&#1080; &#1088;&#1077;&#1089;&#1091;&#1088;&#1089;&#1085;&#1099;&#1077; &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1072;&#1079;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;. _*&#1052;&#1077;&#1078;&#1088;&#1077;&#1084;&#1086;&#1085;&#1090;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1088;&#1077;&#1089;&#1091;&#1088;&#1089; &#1091;&#1074;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1095;&#1080;&#1083;&#1089;&#1103; &#1089; 500*_ &#1076;&#1086; 1000 &#1095;&#1072;&#1089;&#1086;&#1074;. &#1056;&#1077;&#1089;&#1091;&#1088;&#1089; &#1076;&#1086; &#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1074;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1082;&#1072;&#1087;&#1080;&#1090;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1088;&#1077;&#1084;&#1086;&#1085;&#1090;&#1072; - 1500 &#1095;&#1072;&#1089;&#1086;&#1074;. *&#1053;&#1072;&#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1095;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1088;&#1077;&#1089;&#1091;&#1088;&#1089; &#1091;&#1074;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1095;&#1080;&#1083;&#1089;&#1103; &#1089; 1500* &#1076;&#1086; 4000 &#1095;&#1072;&#1089;&#1086;&#1074;.

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## Manticore

Exercise of 2 J-10 against 6 Su-27






credits-no name

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## Kompromat

Who won ? ^^


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## abaseen99

China Defense Blog: October 2011

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## SBD-3

ANTIBODY said:


> Exercise of 2 J-10 against 6 Su-27
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> credits-no name


Gosh.....do you think there would have been like this?..


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## cloneman

FWS-10(A?) in seria production,look at the gear box at the bottom.This is FWS-10 version for the J-10.

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## houshanghai

abaseen99 said:


> China Defense Blog: October 2011



video
PLAAF J10A exercised and droped laser-guided bombs on the Tibetan highlands

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## cloneman

More pictures from FY,the guy below is the FWS-10 chief designer

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## aziqbal

it will be interesting to see wether or not the new 8th PLAAF regiment of J10s will be equipped with J10As or J10Bs


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## aziqbal

TaimiKhan said:


> 300 or so Sukhoi's are in service, thus 600 engines alone are needed for them, then add to them the ones needed for reserve, atleast one engine in spare for every 2 engined fighter may be, so if the calculations are done, its a huge task.
> 
> In simple terms, WS-10 may have matured enough and gone through all the testing benchmarks, but getting them in production in large numbers may be the task for future, till then AL-31s are the alternate option.
> 
> PAF may get the WS-10 equipped jets, since our demand is not in huge numbers, as we would be looking for 2-3 Sqds and at themost may be 1 Sqd per year is inducted.



inncorrect numbers 

currently 4 regiments of J11B are flying with WS10, thats 96 planes , WS10 is a matured engine with a almost perfect record 

57 Regt, 19 Ftr Division
89 Regt, 30 Ftr Divisiion
111 Regt, 37 Ftr Division
22 Regt, 8 PLANAF Ftr Division

that leaves 14 Regiments of Flankers with AL-31, total 336 aircraft 

currently 7 regiments of J10 are flying with AL31 not including the 14 with FTTC total 222 aircraft


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## ChineseTiger1986

The annual production of the TH engine is 200 right now, still not enough to cover our entire aircrafts of PLAAF.


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## PakShaheen79

can some one tell me about a more detailed video of same exercise that houshanghai posted above. please~! I loved the bombing but it is just one long shot.


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## IceCold

Come on man 338 pages of a thread in PAF section of something we don't even know when will join PAF or even if it will ever. This thread should be moved from here.


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## Manticore

an article of J10 from Spanish aviation magazine .


credits- houshangahi

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## HANI

A J 10 fighter during a recent Exercise ..........

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## Zarvan

Pakistan Should get the planed 150 J-10 B as soon as possible with JF-17 Block 2 PAF will be force to reckon


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## ANG

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan Should get the planed 150 J-10 B as soon as possible with JF-17 Block 2 PAF will be force to reckon


 
Hi Mr. Zarvan, I have noticed you have stated that Pakistan should buy 24 frigates, 16 subs, and now 150 J-10Bs. I agree the PN and PAF are in dire need of new equipment, as they are majorly outgunned by India.

But, where is a broke nation like Pakistan going to get the money? Pakistan cannot even pay the interest on its loans, and is going to be begging the IMF for money in a few months. Do you honestly think they can pay for these weapons?

That's the irony of Pakistan, tries to act tough, but in the end has to beg the west for money. What a disgrace, how sad it is. This is a nation of 200M people, it could be such an economic power if it had been managed properly. These politicians and corrupt elite have destroyed that nation.

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## abaseen99



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## SBD-3

abaseen99 said:


>


I think its third time we are watching the same pics on this thread.............

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## fatman17

hasnain0099 said:


> I think its third time we are watching the same pics on this thread.............



over zealous posters but well meaning!

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## Kompromat

*Chengdu J-10 Sinocanard*


*The J-10 is frequently labelled in the West,
especially the United States, as a &#8220;cloned Lavi&#8221;, yet
careful examination shows that it is a completely
indigenous Chinese design which owes more to
the evolved Chengdu J-7E/G Fishbed than it does
to the cancelled United States funded Israeli delta
canard fighter.*

*In the pantheon of contemporary fighters the J-10
occupies a similar niche to the agile European
lightweights, the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter
Typhoon, and SAAB Gripen. It is however a unique
design with a delta planform derived from evolved
J-7 variants, an imported Russian Al-31F engine
from early model Flankers and unique chin inlets
and fuselage design.*

The J-10 was China&#8217;s first modern fighter, and first
indigenous fighter not be be almost completely
based on imported technology. With an unstable
airframe and quadruplex digital flight-by-wire the
basic flight system is of the same generation of
basic technology as its EU built peers.
The first version to be built in numbers was the
J-10A, soon followed by the dual J-10S. 

More recently imagery has emerged of the improved
J-10B prototypes. The most prominent change is
a much larger, higher massflow engine inlet which
appears to be a fusion of the 1960s LTV XF-8U3
Crusader III and the F-16DSI demonstrator, used to
prove the inlet design for the F-35 JSF.
The J-10 has yet to be exported, due to its
dependency on imported Al-31F engines. This will
change as the WS-10, a reverse engineered Al-31F,
matures. The J-10B will provide respectable
performance against its EU peers and the F-16,
while soundly outperforming the F/A-18 series.
All J-10 variants use an indigenous glass cockpit
design, and the J-10B is evidently intended to carry
an AESA of respectable size, as well as a nose
mounted Infrared Search/Track turret modelled on
the Russian OLS-30 series.


The J-10A/S currently equips several PLAAF
regiments. Public statements indicate the intent to
field around 1,000 J-10s as replacements for the
obsolescent day VFR J-6 Farmer and J-7 Fishbed.
The J-10 is small enough to fit into all of the PLAAF
and PLANAF&#8217;s 17 &#8216;J-6 sized&#8217; underground tunnel
hangars, unlike imported Russian Flankers.


AusAirpower.

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## Zarvan

ANG said:


> Hi Mr. Zarvan, I have noticed you have stated that Pakistan should buy 24 frigates, 16 subs, and now 150 J-10Bs. I agree the PN and PAF are in dire need of new equipment, as they are majorly outgunned by India.
> 
> But, where is a broke nation like Pakistan going to get the money? Pakistan cannot even pay the interest on its loans, and is going to be begging the IMF for money in a few months. Do you honestly think they can pay for these weapons?
> 
> That's the irony of Pakistan, tries to act tough, but in the end has to beg the west for money. What a disgrace, how sad it is. This is a nation of 200M people, it could be such an economic power if it had been managed properly. These politicians and corrupt elite have destroyed that nation.


Sir I know that we have problem of money but some how we have to arrange money for these weapons because our enemy is growing faster than ever before and we need to maintain the difference or our existence can come in danger so we need to get J-10 B and should have at least 150 of them with 5th generation BVR Missiles like A Darter or else so we can respond to any aggression


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## ANG

Zarvan said:


> Sir I know that we have problem of money but some how we have to arrange money for these weapons because our enemy is growing faster than ever before and we need to maintain the difference or our existence can come in danger so we need to get J-10 B and should have at least 150 of them with 5th generation BVR Missiles like A Darter or else so we can respond to any aggression



Hi Mr. Zarvan, I understand your point and your frustration. I voice the same opinion. Pakistan needs these weapons not to be a threat, but rather have a credible deterrent.


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## Bratva

December is coming Fast, Will Eagle hannon predictions become true? or will they become false?


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## PakShaheen79

ANG said:


> Hi Mr. Zarvan, I understand your point and your frustration. I voice the same opinion. Pakistan needs these weapons not to be a threat, but rather have a credible deterrent. However, with fiscal managers (financial managers) like these, this country will never have its financial independence.
> 
> This line in the article below says it all _"Islamabad publically denies a return, privately begs the US for help in seeking a second IMF programme"_. I found that article disgraceful, but that is the sad reality the nation is currently in, due to it corrupt rulers.
> 
> 
> Looking for IMF help, Pakistan approaches US &#8211; The Express Tribune



Very rightly pointed out but still believe that it is good in a sense that there would be less debt, less money, less corruption and less strings attached like deduction in defense budget which in turn is good for defense related projects like JFT and FC-20.


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## Manticore

fuzzy / unreal j10b


----------



## houshanghai

This pic of J10BS looks like a CG or PS?


----------



## Irfan Baloch

PakShaheen79 said:


> Very rightly pointed out but still believe that it is good in a sense that there would be less debt, less money, less corruption and less strings attached like deduction in defense budget which in turn is good for defense related projects like JFT and FC-20.



this guy looks like a troll ninja
see how many times he has posted the same comment, I have already deleted his exact comment few post below after you quoted his post which is similar to the one deleted below
we need to keep the moral, economical, religious, ethical & ethnic discussion out of this thread & report any such posts and NEVER EVER quote or respond to such posts


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## ANG

Hi, I am not a troll ninja. My original email was simply edited by someone, without me being notified. As such, I though I had accidentally deleted it. I was simply trying to point out that it would be nice for Pakistan to order 150+ J-10Bs, but funding is limited due to certain reasons. I am an economist/statistician by trade, not a troll. I apologize for any drama that I caused or for unknowingly repeating posts.


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## houshanghai

J10A was being tested in CAC the day before yesterday





















thx fengbueibei

videos









thx 8800

China J 10 in Thanksgiving Trip Flight Demonstration TANGSHAN AIR SHOW





thx hk299792458

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## houshanghai

static J10A displayed some weapons













thx &#19996;&#37326;38&#20891;

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## unicorn

Where is the external fuel probe?

http://chinesemilitaryreview.blogspot.com/2011/11/new-batch-of-j-10a-vigorous-dragon.html


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## abdulbarijan

Well there is still a big confusion on which version will be the FC-20..
Either upgraded J-10A or a specified J-10B
with chinese insider Huzhigeng saying that it was upgraded J-10A that PAF ordered 


> &#32769;&#30340;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#19981;&#36807;&#37324;&#38754;&#35774;&#22791;&#26377;&#21464;&#21270;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;&#12290;
> "The export orders are for older J-10A version, not B. However there are upgrades done."


while our own insider Eagle Hannan has this views over the issue



> the moment I read "There is no problem with WS13" I was like yes right and all the PAF people here in China are lying. J-10B/FC20 was PAF requirement.. No J10A version. I think could be some translation error... Its like someone has been running after this guy and asking questions while he half heartidly replied.
> 
> I have quoted the project director from PAF saying "J-10A is hardly a replcement for Mirrages and there is no reason to 2 platforms with same capability". Also so far the acquisition of J-10B is on track. The 4 J-10B inshallah will make it to Pakistan. I have sent an Email to my contact and copied the above report in it. I just want to be sure.. I mean the guy says "little change in avionics". What does that mean? It is not a little change we need a J-10 with. and another point says "10 planes are being readied". CAC has already cleared 2 B models for flight tests and I can confirm PAF is part of evaluation team. Piloting the bird.
> 
> Anyways, I would not be so worried about about this... doesnt seem right
> 
> The confusion may be because Pakistan's designated version is FC20 which is based on J-10B with Pakistan specific requirements on top of J-10B (Chinese desingation of a new air frame + avionics package). It is still going to be based on J10B inshALLAh.



The matter ended with the conclusion that PAF might acquire some upgraded J-10A's and then move on to a PAF specified version of J-10B..

Here are my queries
-What sort of upgrades can be done on a J-10A if we were to induct them first

*-AESA radar (since seniors did point out that the change in the nose was due to DSI intakes not due to the AESA)
so can we use AESA on J-10A * 
I mean it would be unnatural to have JFT-II with AESA and our supposed higher end fighters of the future not having it...

*-Avionics,ECM and EW upgrades to what extent?? (I mean compared to J-10B a test bed for 5th generation technologies)*

*-Lastly will we integrate some foreign weapons and our own indigenous weapons with the FC-20 and what sort of teeth will it further add to the already a lethal platform...
*

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## SBD-3

something to keep the thread alive......

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## Raftar

^^^BRO yeh SPAIN k kab sey J-10 mein interest hey???


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## SBD-3

Raftar said:


> ^^^BRO yeh SPAIN k kab sey J-10 mein interest hey???


Not Necessarily, the bird may have been painted for a special occasion in China-Spain context.


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## isi admirer

if we can get up to 72 j10s upto 2015 and 150 jft and 60 f16 blk 52 or mlu i think it would be a decent fleet for paf...


----------



## SBD-3

isi admirer said:


> if we can get up to 72 j10s upto 2015 and 150 jft and 60 f16 blk 52 or mlu i think it would be a decent fleet for paf...


ACM has spoken, "we will not enter in an arms race with our eastern rival". Pshamim also pointed to this that PAF has rather decided to enhance the capabilities of its aircrafts. Looks like PAF will have all out multirole fleet. The concept is that of synergy. For instance, if i have a decidcated A2A and and dedicated A2G platforms, the equation comes at 10,10. If i have all of them as Multirole, the equation is enhaced to 20,20. Thats what PAF is looking for, I think.


----------



## fatman17

isi admirer said:


> if we can get up to 72 j10s upto 2015 and 150 jft and 60 f16 blk 52 or mlu i think it would be a decent fleet for paf...



highly unlikely 72 J-10b's and 60 F-16s will be available by 2015


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> highly unlikely 72 J-10b's and 60 F-16s will be available by 2015



I think 2 squadrons by 2014-15 would be a more moderate guess


----------



## SBD-3

penumbra said:


> I think 2 squadrons by 2014-15 would be a more moderate guess


Eagle Hannan Gave Mid-2013. If that happens then may be til mid-2014...


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## Manticore



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## soul hacker

ANTIBODY said:


>



going to be my wallpaper

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## abaseen99



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## isi admirer

i tink pakistan should cancell the deal of optional 18 f 16s and should go fo fc 20s asthey are less expensive more capable and without strings so 36 more instead of 18 optional f 16s would be an ideal choice for paf if it happens then in 2015 it could be possible
60 f16 blk 52 mlu 72 fc20 and 150 jfts a fleet that can provide pakistan very good minimum detrance against??????


----------



## ahussains

Your Idea is good but its very difficult to came out from US pressure and let you roll out towards F20 easily


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## regular

isi admirer said:


> i tink pakistan should cancell the deal of optional 18 f 16s and should go fo fc 20s asthey are less expensive more capable and without strings so 36 more instead of 18 optional f 16s would be an ideal choice for paf if it happens then in 2015 it could be possible
> 60 f16 blk 52 mlu 72 fc20 and 150 jfts a fleet that can provide pakistan very good minimum detrance against??????


Who said that we are going for Optional more 18 F-16'nz ....I don't think so cuz the Chinese Counter parts like J-10B's are more capable and superior in armaments to the US F-16nz right now.....Alhamdolillah!........


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## monitor

But that platform is unknown compare to F-16 you have 30 year experience.

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## Emmie

monitor said:


> But that platform is unknown compare to *F-16 you have 30 year experience*.



Don't forget we have operated F6,A5 for decades and we have been operating F7 for decades plus JF-17 a joint venture.. So we have lot of experience with Chinese tech.


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## PakShaheen79

monitor said:


> But that platform is unknown compare to F-16 you have 30 year experience.



By that yard stick, even JF-17 is unknown to most of the PAF.


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## Cool_Soldier

Fc-20 will be comparable to EF/Rafle and will be used against one of them to counter IF new coming threat.
There were rumors that China will give atleast one Squadron of J10B to PAkistan but still date is un known.I think, it will be announced after Indian MMRCA decesion.


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## SQ8

monitor said:


> But that platform is unknown compare to F-16 you have 30 year experience.



The F-16 is also 30 years old..
Operational concepts need to be developed and these take time.


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## MastanKhan

regular said:


> Who said that we are going for Optional more 18 F-16'nz ....I don't think so cuz the Chinese Counter parts like J-10B's are more capable and superior in armaments to the US F-16nz right now.....Alhamdolillah!........




Sir,

No---they are not as of now.


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## hatf IX

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> No---they are not as of now.


 
MK you are absolutely right about it that, Chinese are behind . . . . .. . 

but the comperison is not about the tech

the relistic comperson will be like, what tech we can get from american compared to what tech we can get from chinese.

and i think in this senario chinese stuf will be better than what we will get frrom america.

so chinese stuf will be better option . . . . ..


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## araz

hatf IX said:


> MK you are absolutely right about it that, Chinese are behind . . . . .. .
> 
> but the comperison is not about the tech
> 
> the relistic comperson will be like, what tech we can get from american compared to what tech we can get from chinese.
> 
> and i think in this senario chinese stuf will be better than what we will get frrom america.
> 
> so chinese stuf will be better option . . . . ..



Add to your post what conditions are imposed on their use. For instance how good are the current F16s under the current siuation that PAF faces. The answer is no good.
Araz

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## Mani2020

araz said:


> Add to your post what conditions are imposed on their use. For instance how good are the current F16s under the current siuation that PAF faces. The answer is no good.
> Araz



Also we got an habit to downplay the others and the dogmatism we have.... The world has changed so are the capabilities ...China has improved alot in all aspects..its just that they don't create much hype like westerns .... Americans are best marketers they would sell you a tin box while making it look like the most precious thing in the world ....We all know how they have downplayed the soviet tech in the past when the later proved to be having the upper hand in many cases 

As one fellow Tempset was talking about in jf-17 related thread that according to his analysis and info jf-17 climb rate was more than that of gripen and even ef-2000 but look at the difference of hype created about the later ones compared to the former...just because they belong to west 


Also don't know for how long these people are going to debate on what is good and what not when they have already witnessed the NATO and particularly US's attitude towards Pakistan... I say in such conditions even a chinese j-8 is better than a F-35

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## Rahil khan

Mani2020 said:


> Also we got an habit to downplay the others and the dogmatism we have.... The world has changed so are the capabilities ...China has improved alot in all aspects..its just that they don't create much hype like westerns .... Americans are best marketers they would sell you a tin box while making it look like the most precious thing in the world ....We all know how they have downplayed the soviet tech in the past when the later proved to be having the upper hand in many cases
> 
> As one fellow Tempset was talking about in jf-17 related thread that according to his analysis and info jf-17 climb rate was more than that of gripen and even ef-2000 but look at the difference of hype created about the later ones compared to the former...just because they belong to west
> 
> 
> Also don't know for how long these people are going to debate on what is good and what not when they have already witnessed the NATO and particularly US's attitude towards Pakistan... I say in such conditions even a chinese j-8 is better than a F-35


 
I agree with you and additionally i would like to say that it was sanctions which shifted Pakistan's attention to build J-F 17 Thunder. Otherwise J-F17 would have been just like LAVI or Indian LCA. I believe that if again US cuts off the aid to Pakistan because Afghan drama is at its end we can look towards more dimension to further secure the airspace of our country.


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## epinephrine

i think pakistani armed forces n pakistani nation need some balls on more urgent bases thab aircrafts


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## Mani2020

Rahil khan said:


> I agree with you and additionally i would like to say that it was sanctions which shifted Pakistan's attention to build J-F 17 Thunder. Otherwise J-F17 would have been just like LAVI or Indian LCA. I believe that if again US cuts off the aid to Pakistan because Afghan drama is at its end we can look towards more dimension to further secure the airspace of our country.


 
We are already looking at different dimensions..Its not what we were in 80's ...that is solely dependent on US ...The focus is already to divert acquisitions at the meanwhile get what you can from US as a last bet..... its like icing on the cake .....


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## ziaulislam

yes but around 2020 china will catch up the west even surpass them..
aircrafts have to be seen in context of their life time..we can expect a lot of updates and upgrades for fc-20 and j-10 

cant say that about f-16 especially when most of the operators will be retiring it soon.


----------



## araz

Mani2020 said:


> Also we got an habit to downplay the others and the dogmatism we have.... The world has changed so are the capabilities ...China has improved alot in all aspects..its just that they don't create much hype like westerns .... Americans are best marketers they would sell you a tin box while making it look like the most precious thing in the world ....We all know how they have downplayed the soviet tech in the past when the later proved to be having the upper hand in many cases
> 
> As one fellow Tempset was talking about in jf-17 related thread that according to his analysis and info jf-17 climb rate was more than that of gripen and even ef-2000 but look at the difference of hype created about the later ones compared to the former...just because they belong to west
> 
> 
> Also don't know for how long these people are going to debate on what is good and what not when they have already witnessed the NATO and particularly US's attitude towards Pakistan... I say in such conditions even a chinese j-8 is better than a F-35




The problem with Chinese tech is that there are no parallels for comparisons. Developments are on going and products are emerging but how good are they? No one really knows primarily because these products have not been tested in battle field. Unlike this the US has engaged in war and has demonstrated its capabilities of its armamentarium to the world and the EU zone to a lesser extent. So unfortunately all that one can say is that the products are nearly as good. we will have to see how they respond under field conditions to stop this argument once and for all. Even the chinese trials are kept secret so for an armchair general like me there are no parameters to compare. This in many ways ids the problem.

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## araz

Mani2020 said:


> We are already looking at different dimensions..Its not what we were in 80's ...that is solely dependent on US ...The focus is already to divert acquisitions at the meanwhile get what you can from US as a last bet..... its like icing on the cake .....



I fully agree . We have wisened up finally!!, however, as always we are reactive in our responses rather than proactive. I think if for once someone higher up has had the sagacity to be proactive and used the window of opportunity to develop equipment, we would be gratful to that champion.
Araz


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

China already matched world by 600 J10A flying in its airforce and latest BVR missiles and AWACs


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## SBD-3

araz said:


> The problem with Chinese tech is that there are no parallels for comparisons. Developments are on going and products are emerging but how good are they? No one really knows primarily because these products have not been tested in battle field. Unlike this the US has engaged in war and has demonstrated its capabilities of its armamentarium to the world and the EU zone to a lesser extent. So unfortunately all that one can say is that the products are nearly as good. we will have to see how they respond under field conditions to stop this argument once and for all. Even the chinese trials are kept secret so for an armchair general like me there are no parameters to compare. This in many ways ids the problem.


The only way China can do it is to become as pathetic as US and NATO allies who have made libya, Iraq and Afghanistan as their weapons testing grounds........French,Germans and Sweeds as well tested their newer weapons thoroughly on defenseless Libyan ground troops....US has never met a respectable match in its history after WWII (Soviet Union went down without a fight).......

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## Obambam

The only ones with at least some ideas would be our brother nation Pakistan, who trained and worked with us on various projects and the Russians to some extent.

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## Mani2020

araz said:


> The problem with Chinese tech is that there are no parallels for comparisons. Developments are on going and products are emerging but how good are they? No one really knows primarily because these products have not been tested in battle field. Unlike this the *US has engaged in war and has demonstrated its capabilities *of its armamentarium to the world and the EU zone to a lesser extent. So unfortunately all that one can say is that the products are nearly as good. we will have to see how they respond under field conditions to stop this argument once and for all. Even the chinese trials are kept secret so for an armchair general like me there are no parameters to compare. This in many ways ids the problem.



And we know against what US has demonstrated its war capabilities....against rusty migs and pilots who never know how to fly ....and in a situation where 5 US jets along with all AWACS and integrated missile systems were against 1 alone aircraft that too lacking even the required armament ...Adding more to misery all media was controlled by US who was like always presenting the hyped analysis of US power while hiding the US loses at the same time......In that situation i wonder how can someone made to access the capabilities of an aircraft or system..... Unless and until you can't see the tussle b/w two equally prepared rivals you can't judge capabilities of any side

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## abdulbarijan

Any one knows what FC-20 would even be like....
I mean sure we see it as a counter to MMRCA and thats just it..
nothing else..
Insider informations from China and Pakistan contradict each other..
we dont even know which version of J-10 the FC-20 is based on....

More than 341 pages and we dont even know that..LOL!


----------



## epinephrine

abdulbarijan said:


> Any one knows what FC-20 would even be like....
> I mean sure we see it as a counter to MMRCA and thats just it..
> nothing else..
> Insider informations from China and Pakistan contradict each other..
> we dont even know which version of J-10 the FC-20 is based on....
> 
> More than 341 pages and we dont even know that..LOL!



this is wat we call"top secret"


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## Skorpion

is there any topic about j-20 ?? d


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## abdulbarijan

Check this out

*Show news Dubai 2011 says that FC-20 will be J-10B *

Dubai ShowNews | Day 2 | Express 3 | Zinio Digital Magazines

Its on page number 8

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## Areesh

^^^

So this proves that FC-20 will be J-10b not J-10a.


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## SQ8

The J-10A purchase was considered as an emergency procurement after the May 2 raid.
However, it dawned on PAF officers that even with the J-10A their combat effectiveness against an attack by an ally would not change. Moreover..it was decided to tackle the threat on the western border by other means and skip quick solutions for a more comprehensive and much more advanced approach to the Air staff requirement.


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## araz

Mani2020 said:


> And we know against what US has demonstrated its war capabilities....against rusty migs and pilots who never know how to fly ....and in a situation where 5 US jets along with all AWACS and integrated missile systems were against 1 alone aircraft that too lacking even the required armament ...Adding more to misery all media was controlled by US who was like always presenting the hyped analysis of US power while hiding the US loses at the same time......In that situation i wonder how can someone made to access the capabilities of an aircraft or system..... Unless and until you can't see the tussle b/w two equally prepared rivals you can't judge capabilities of any side


 
mani
No one here is debating what theUS has or has not done. The world has a prosaic view of arms acquisition and that favours weapons that have been tried and tested in field conditions. In many cases it is the American military industries which have influenced the American Government to go to various wars for that very purpose. However no one is debating that. The question is simply that even basic data is missing for chinese equipment which makes comparison difficult. This is a twin edged sword. i suspect the reason in the past may have been that the tech was just not good enough. Now the tech has drawn level or at least parity, we might see better advertising of the chinese military tech.
Araz


----------



## abaseen99

---------- Post added at 09:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 AM ----------

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## bilal

kick *** machine.we should buy chines equipment usa cant trust any more


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## bilal

nice pic 

---------- Post added at 11:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 AM ----------

china should have display J10B/FC20 at dubai air show it would have rocked


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## TVVELVEMO$

I say this with the utmost gravity; the best advert for Chinese hardware will be a skirmish over Taiwan with US made jets in which J10 , J11 prevail. The next most likely scenario is if Pakistani Thunders Or J10B/FC20 bring down an Indian SU30MKI\Typhoon\Rafale\Mirage 2000\Mig29 in a brief skirmish over Kashmir.

Ironically other maufacturers may engineer such a situation to dis-credit Chinese hardware if Chinese pilots or Pakistani pilots do not come out on top.


Now it is high stake poker my friends and Billions are at stake. Stay sharp.

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## bilal

fc20 any official full specs and images of the equipments coakpit ?


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## R0H1T

TVVELVEMO$ said:


> I say this with the utmost gravity; the best advert for Chinese hardware will be a skirmish over Taiwan with US made jets in which J10 , J11 prevail. The next most likely scenario is if Pakistani Thunders Or J10B/FC20 bring down an Indian SU30MKI\Typhoon\Rafale\Mirage 2000\Mig29 in a brief skirmish over Kashmir.
> 
> Ironically other maufacturers may engineer such a situation to dis-credit Chinese hardware if Chinese pilots or Pakistani pilots do not come out on top.
> 
> 
> Now it is high stake poker my friends and Billions are at stake. Stay sharp.


You seem to be pretty excited about something as horrific as war & yes those two scenarios will lead to a full scale war !


----------



## Donatello

Santro said:


> The J-10A purchase was considered as an emergency procurement after the May 2 raid.
> However, it dawned on PAF officers that even with the J-10A their combat effectiveness against an attack by an ally would not change. Moreover..it was decided to tackle the threat on the western border by other means and skip quick solutions for a more comprehensive and much more advanced approach to the Air staff requirement.




And what would be that more advanced approach?


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## SBD-3

penumbra said:


> And what would be that more advanced approach?


Sticking to long term objectives and accordingly the acquisition plans in line with these objectives....


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## Jango

kindly stop trolling every thread.


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## Sunny Malik94

bilal said:


> long live pakistan1



i have seen same post on othr threads.. r u trying to increase ur number ov posts??

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## sohail.ishaque

self deleted....


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## Lawrie

cb4 said:


> For some reason I think that the J-10 A looks good aesthetically than the J-10 B. The air intake is kind of ugly and the radom is too big maybe cuz of the AESA radar.


J-10B used a more advanced DSI air intake design. Actually the 6 sticks on J-10A is kinda ugly lol
quote from wiki "The Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, JF-17 Thunder, Chengdu J-10B and Chengdu J-20 fighters all incorporate DSI."


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## Lawrie

Don't worry. The Chinese are rich. They will either give them for free, or remit the debt afterwards.


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## MZUBAIR

bilal said:


> fc20 any official full specs and images of the equipments coakpit ?



So far noithing revealed about J10B, only speculations.
But Sino Defence syas this

The J-10B is a modified variant of the J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, with modifications in *airframe and avionics*

DSI Design Modifications
The J-10B features a chin-mounted diffuser supersonic inlet (DSI) air inlet. The traditional rectangle-shape air inlet on the J-10 requires a large moveable inlet ramp to generate a rearward leaning oblique shock wave to aid the inlet compression process. The ramp sits at an acute angle to deflect the intake air stream from the longitudinal direction. The air inlets comprises many moving parts, which increases the aircrafts weight and radar reflections.

The newly designed rampless inlet, first tested on the FC-1/JF-17 fighter design by Chengdu, employs a one-piece bump at the top of the inlet replacing the movable ramp. This eliminates all moving parts on the inlet, lightening the overall weight and reducing the aircrafts radar signature.











The J-10B has been added with an electronic-optic targeting system (EOTS) commonly found on all fourth-generation Russian fighter aircraft such as Su-27 and MiG-29.Placed forward of the cockpit canopy to the right, the system comprises an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor and a laser rangefinder, which can detect enemy targets passively without requiring to turn on the fire-control radar, thus reducing the chance of the aircraft being detected.


Accommodate advanced electronic warfare and countermeasures (EW/ECM) equipment.

*Engine and Radar are still under cover.*


Reference:- J10B Sino Defence

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## Mazharrafiq

nice information bro


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## houshanghai

Yesterday,New delivery of J10a to the PLAAF or PLAN in Chengdu 





















JFT PT 06 was also being tested yesterday






thx to &#36215;&#20010;&#21517;&#24819;&#21322;&#22825;

link;
13?????????| ?? - ??? - powered by phpwind.net

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## TVVELVEMO$

@ROH1T; In reference to your laconic post #5120, you must have picked up my 'latent' excitement from my opening seven words. I do not have a crisp command of the written word as perhaps someone as yourself. 

My comment was a cautionary note for Pakistani and Chinese readers about the treacherous machinations of the Aviation world and not drum beat of war in any manner whatsoever. Such events do become selling points for manufacturers and they often like to influence the perceived outcomes of such events. You picking up what is being laid down?

When you speak of these events leading to full scale war, which war would that be - World War IV amongst whom? In the context of this thread that simply means more military hardware marketing to nations like yours by US, Europe, Russia and Israel. 

Maybe you can enlighten us all why the skirmish in 1999 where you downed an unarmed Pakistani Breguet Atlantique did not lead to war? Or why numerous skirmishes over Durand in 80s did not lead to war, although quite a few Soviet aircraft were downed?
Do you consider the Kargil border skirmishes as full scale war in which you lost a few aircraft?

I am going to quit while I am contextually ahead but I do share you abhorrence of war - ahimsa as you might put it?

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## VelocuR

houshanghai said:


> JFT PT 06 was also being tested yesterday



Lol, both these J-10A and JFT body tube are very similar and look much same except wings. Didnt realized it. 

Though J-10A is like 500 pounds heavy than JF-17- 200 pounds (eating healthy foods). 



MZUBAIR said:


> The J-10B has been added with an* electronic-optic targeting system (EOTS)* commonly found on all fourth-generation Russian fighter aircraft such as Su-27 and MiG-29.Placed forward of the cockpit canopy to the right, the system comprises an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor and a laser rangefinder, which can detect enemy targets passively without requiring to turn on the fire-control radar, thus reducing the chance of the aircraft being detected.



F-35 Lightning II Electro-optical Targeting System - YouTube

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## untitled

I am sorry if this has been discussed before but I could find anything related to this on PDF

Right now Wikipedia says that J-10B is being delivered to PAKISTAN in 2012 and that claim is being supported by the link from Asian Military Review Retrieved 11 July 2011.(it is a PDF file)


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## untitled

^^^ Is the above news out of date ?


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## Major Sam

The J-10s would be modified to Pakistani requirements, and be delivered to two PAF squadrons in 2014&#8211;2015 as the FC-20.


in Wikpedia it is written 2014-15.. whee u read 2012?


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## untitled

usama waqas said:


> The J-10s would be modified to Pakistani requirements, and be delivered to two PAF squadrons in 2014&#8211;2015 as the FC-20.
> 
> 
> in Wikpedia it is written 2014-15.. whee u read 2012?



Here

I had provided the source in the above post too


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## MZUBAIR

The first J-10B would be delieverd to PAF in 2014.


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## CANTANKEROUS

I have seen many pictures and videos of J-10 having pakistani flag on their tails....... is there any chance getting these birds earlier than 2014 ?????


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Some times I wonder why we agreed for the planes to reach us in 2014 , I mean why not 2012 ? I mean they are there just have to be flown into Pakistan now


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## PakShaheen79

I think, PAF would like to have some critical changes or perhaps, Chinese need to fulfil orders for PLAAF. i believe it is the case of customization which is taking time. As PAF is busy with absorbing AEW and Thunders, So it is good in a way if there is a little bit of delay. Plus, MRCA for IAF has not finalized yet either... May be that is the case but it is less likely as PAF always pursue its own plans.


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## 3030

Dear AzadPakistan2009 where are the planes since this is not reporeted earlier. According to this thread rhere are only prototypes seen in pictures. Our Chinese friends have contracted for engines and most likely we will see serial produced J-10Bs early next year. If PLAAF is getting the Bs in 2012 then 2014 is very efficient for the same aircraft to join PAF. This is my take from keeping a tab on this forum but the things can be different in actual as you say?


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## Dr.Death

J-10B is a good fighter but the only downside to it is bad reliability of chinese engines and also its a new design of israeli origin, i think in order to get better strike capability PAF should get MiG-35D.


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## SBD-3

Dr.Death said:


> J-10B is a good fighter but the only downside to it is bad reliability of chinese engines





> and also its a new design of israeli origin





> , i think in order to get better strike capability PAF should get MiG-35*D*.


its a fighter not a bra size  (till date there is only one designation i.e. Mig-35 not Mig-35D)

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## Mughal-Prince

hasnain0099 said:


> its a fighter not a bra size  (till date there is only one designation i.e. Mig-35 not Mig-35D)



 hasnain I think person above have a flag problem ... seems to me is trying to find a new way of trolling ... the filmy way ...

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## Hasnain2009

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Some times I wonder why we agreed for the planes to reach us in 2014 , I mean why not 2012 ? I mean they are there just have to be flown into Pakistan now


 
Why u want to get it in 2012? For me, i would never buy it till i know the package that india is buying as their MRCA...this way J10b will be tailored to challenge indian MRCA...


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## Ammyy

Hasnain2009 said:


> Why u want to get it in 2012? For me, i would never buy it till i know the package that india is buying as their MRCA...this way J10b will be tailored to challenge indian MRCA...



What can you change with respect to Indian selection of MMRCA ?? 

What china will provide, you have to buy it

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## oct605032048

DRDO said:


> What can you change with respect to Indian selection of MMRCA ??
> 
> What china will provide, you have to buy it



You have to buy it also and I don't see anything worth proud of. 

Plus based on the current crash rate in IAF, how many years can the few hundreds of aircrafts last?

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## Jungibaaz

DRDO said:


> What can you change with respect to Indian selection of MMRCA ??
> 
> What china will provide, you have to buy it



Well, we were able to go for J-10B, which is pretty much a 4.5 gen fighter (something unthinkable in 2008 when there was talk of J-10 for PAF) what may seem non-existent now, will shock you folks as it has done in the past.
You folks always seem ignorant of this fact.

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## SBD-3

Jungibaaz said:


> Well, we were able to go for J-10B, which is pretty much a 4.5 gen fighter (something unthinkable in 2008 when there was talk of J-10 for PAF) what may seem non-existent now, will shock you folks as it has done in the past.
> You folks always seem ignorant of this fact.


Not ignorant, but trying to live in a self comforting denial........

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## rcrmj

DRDO said:


> What can you change with respect to Indian selection of MMRCA ??
> 
> What china will provide, you have to buy it



same goes what west can provide you have to buy it``but the difference is that West keeps playing simpeton indians with the fairy tale of 'ToT'```but Pakistan has already had whole production line plus technological know-how

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## Storm Force

How far is FC20 from FOC. 

AND INDEED when is PAF buying and receving thse planes.

TOO MUCH CONFLICTING REPORTS

some say 2015 x 36 planes

others say 150 planes starting 2014 

difficult to judge a REAL CONCRETE PLAN or indeed wat is real and wat is made up forum wishlist


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## Irfan Baloch

DRDO said:


> You present only two planes infront of worlds J10 and JF17 and we all know their capabilities, you forget even Zimbabwe reject your super duper plane




Sir 
Did President Mugabe just call you to say he was rejecting them? or did he explain that the arms embargo means that he was to even "reject" Tejas too?

please share the "secret" footage where Pakistan & China made the sales pitch and took the planes with them to show off to Mr Mogabe? or if he sent his cousin & brother in Law to fly few planes to decide if wanted them or not?

the current sanction on Zimbawe mean that they will "reject" any Russian, American and European planes as long as it has the Anti-west Mugabi at the helm.




Jungibaaz said:


> Well, we were able to go for J-10B, which is pretty much a 4.5 gen fighter (something unthinkable in 2008 when there was talk of J-10 for PAF) what may seem non-existent now, will shock you folks as it has done in the past.
> You folks always seem ignorant of this fact.



and it suits us fine, just fine. dont show off and dont disclose if it is not a public knowledge
I remember when Japanese and Korean products were laughed at and referred as junk but now they rule the markets and their western counterparts factories are closed down and converted into parking lots or flats.
whether the people chose to be ignorant or in denial it doesn&#8217;t matter but what matters is that these planes are tailored to our requirements and have been developed over time the ay we wanted. 
our main aim is to arm ourselves first, then only we can present them for sales to the rest of the world if they are interested. 

the current manufacturers of this industry guard their products with absolute jealousy and too many strings. Not all countries have the budgets and/ or availability of the platforms that they require. JF-17 and J-10 come in the picture with very fair price and all the essential goodies of the 4th to 4.5 planes which is impossible to have in the same price range from Western planes. By the time these planes will be offered to the rest of the world, they would have been already flying in our (Pak China) own air forces for some time so the prospect buyers will have enough data about their performance & capability. And it will be the buyers that will be coming to us not us going to them because the West denies their planes by pricing them too high or just simply not selling them due to its foreign policies & designs in the different regions of the world. We don&#8217;t have these preconditions expect that we wont be offering these to anyone who would present them to our common enemies next day after buying them from us. 

Simplez

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## SQ8

Irfan Baloch said:


> Sir
> Did President Mugabe just call you to say he was rejecting them? or did he explain that the arms embargo means that he was to even "reject" Tejas too?
> 
> please share the "secret" footage where Pakistan & China made the sales pitch and took the planes with them to show off to Mr Mogabe? or if he sent his cousin & brother in Law to fly few planes to decide if wanted them or not?
> 
> the current sanction on Zimbawe mean that they will "reject" any Russian, American and European planes as long as it has the Anti-west Mugabi at the helm.



IB .. I think you are defying your own signature with that

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## Jungibaaz

> You present only two planes infront of worlds J10 and JF17 and we all know their capabilities, you forget even Zimbabwe reject your super duper plane



Any source of 'rejection'? Any at all? 
Or did you not consider the restrictions placed on Zimbabwe by the international community, which would explain why the deal has all but vanished, possibly being done behind closed curtains .

We know how many nations have showed interest, the potential is there.

Well mate, if rejection makes an aircraft bad then Rafale should be one of the worst, no?
Any-who... how goes the LCA project? How many nations have shown interest? How many have been produced? 

On Indian defense forum, trolls much like yourself have infested the Pakistan defense section, I suggest you go there and post, I'll deal with you there. Leave this thread.


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## Irfan Baloch

Santro said:


> IB .. I think you are defying your own signature with that



facepalm 

aouch

couldnt help it


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## MastanKhan

You present only two planes infront of worlds J10 and JF17 and we all know their capabilities, you forget even Zimbabwe reject your super duper plane 
Original Post By DRDO

Hi,

So by that inference all the planes rejected in the MRCA tender were failures I presume!!!!!

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## Donatello

Santro said:


> IB .. I think you are defying your own signature with that




For a moment i thought IB was Intelligence Bureau.


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## Dil Pakistan

oct605032048 said:


> You have to buy it also and I don't see anything worth proud of.
> 
> Plus based on the current crash rate in IAF, *how many years can the few hundreds of aircrafts last?*



hmmm!!! I think 5 years maximum


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## abdulbarijan

Well back to the topic..Ive heard about the sukhoi upgrade ... and with the new changes .. infact im most skeptical about the radar change which is to be an AESA in the future... so what will we do if our neighbours get their hands on something like the Irbis-E..
I mean its a quite powerful radar..
and one more question...*like the pulse doppler radars.... do the AESA radars also give away the position of an aircraft using em? .....*
thanks in advance


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## epinephrine

abdulbarijan said:


> Well back to the topic..Ive heard about the sukhoi upgrade ... and with the new changes .. infact im most skeptical about the radar change which is to be an AESA in the future... so what will we do if our neighbours get their hands on something like the Irbis-E..
> I mean its a quite powerful radar..
> and one more question...*like the pulse doppler radars.... do the AESA radars also give away the position of an aircraft using em? .....*
> thanks in advance



no need to worry.pakistan cant afford to be in an arms race with a fanatic neighbour which feels insecure for no reason.pakistan just need minimun deterrent level against india.indians will never be foolish enough to send their super sukhois against a nuclear capable country.in case of a war we shouldn't hesitate in first nuclear strike.as far as defence of nuslear sites r concened neither ours nor their nukes r completely safe.


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## Jiang

abdulbarijan said:


> and one more question...*like the pulse doppler radars.... do the AESA radars also give away the position of an aircraft using em? .....*
> thanks in advance



AESA don't give away the user's position because it constant changes frequency, it might alert an experienced adversary but the signal is going to be mixed with back ground noise.


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## SQ8

Jiang said:


> AESA don't give away the user's position because it constant changes frequency, it might alert an experienced adversary but the signal is going to be mixed with back ground noise.



AESA with LPI do not give away the position.


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## showstopper

I remember that a reputable poster called eaglehannon said that the first J-10 would be arriving this December. Any signs of that being true?


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## Machoman

Dude when we are planning to receive these?


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## rcrmj

Machoman said:


> Dude when we are planning to receive these?


its damn hard to get an exact date from CCP when it is about defense or high techs,, but at the end day we know PAF will be getting that earlier than IAF's MMRCA


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## razgriz19

showstopper said:


> I remember that a reputable poster called eaglehannon said that the first J-10 would be arriving this December. Any signs of that being true?



i dont think so
the deliveries are impossible till 2013/2014.
CAC is still working on them, and im pretty sure PLAAF would like to have a couple of them first.


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## aimarraul



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## siegecrossbow

aimarraul said:


>



Confirmed PESA radar?


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## aimarraul

siegecrossbow said:


> Confirmed PESA radar?



it appears so.....


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## SBD-3

aimarraul said:


>


Sombody is talking about signal transformation cable saying that this cable is usually not found in PESA radars but AESA radar sets.


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## TOPGUN

I know to quick to assume or even ask... since these will be front line fighters any idea where they will be based out of ?


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## houshanghai

siegecrossbow said:


> Confirmed PESA radar?




Now,this new pic of radar is still cannot sure PESA or AESA in CDF, however,it is reported that J10B's AESA radar is come from NanJing 14 radar research institute

Other pic about J10B radar from official sources 

*AESA RADAR&#65288;607 radar research institute&#65289; information(tr;This radar is our country's first prototype of AESA fire control radar. It is developed by [unknown translation] is capable of agile beam steering, varying in power output, and low power loss. It has long detection range, strong ability in tracking multiple targets, excellent resistance to ECM, and low probabilty of interception. The successful development of this radar signifies our country's level in research of airborne radar is on par with other advanced countries. thx Engineer )







PESA RADAR&#65288;NanJing 14 radar research institute&#65289; information( tr:This radar is our country's first PESA fire control radar, and is developed by 14th institute. It achieves scanning without mechanical movements through the use of electronic beam steering. The radar can detect and track multiple targets, and is capable of tracking 10 targets and engaging 4 targets simultaneously. The use of broad spectrum enables the radar to have excellent resistance against ECM. thx Engineer),




so J10B have PESA and AESA ,two or more options &#65292; China can supply PESA or AESA according to the requirement of customs


*chinese synthetic aperture radar*





china AESA radar has been successfully developed since the 1970s and has come up to advanced world standards






link
http://top81.jschina.com.cn/top81bbs/thread.php?cid=3&rootid=3595782&id=3595790

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## [--Leo--]

what is difference b/w AESA and PESA radar


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## SBD-3

[--Leo--];2422265 said:


> what is difference b/w AESA and PESA radar


As per my humble understanding, PESA radar uses only one beam but at a very fast steering rate Vs multiple beams in AESA radars.


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## Jungibaaz

[--Leo--];2422265 said:


> what is difference b/w AESA and PESA radar



Passive Electronically Scanned Array (PESA) and the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) are the same in terms of technology and how they work, Both AESA and PESA can steer their beams electronically through use of the Phase Shifter, so it can be made in a solid state configuration (without any moving parts).

There are differences in the Radio Frequency source.

AESA has lots of Radiating Elements, where each of them have their own Transmitter and Receiver Module, hence the Antenna (where all the modules are) becomes 'active'

PESA uses Radio Frequency source that usually found in other types of Radar like Klystrons (linear beam vacuum tube), Magnetrons (high powered Vacuum tube) and Travelling Wave Tubes (TWT is used to amplify the Radio Frequency)

Apologies if some of is it is unclear^^^

AESA is generally better then PESA because of the following advantages:

In AESA, the Antenna Elements have their own Transmitter and Receiver modules, located behind the Radiator, it would have lower or even No accidental loss (which is good since it's more efficient in that sense), whereas PESA still needs to be connected to it's Radio Frequency source to Radiating Elements , incidental loss may occur.

High fault tolerance (again this depends on many other factors, but a general overview) failure of some modules will not hamper the operation of Radar; AESA may use well over a 100 elements, BUT since there is such a high number, the entire device wouldn't fail so easily, so if failure occurs in some of the module counts, the entire device would still be working. 

I guess this is pretty much the same as the above, but AESA has No single point failure; the definition is pretty much self explanatory... A single failure will not lead to the failure of the entire device. PESA however, since it uses single transmitter device ie TWT, failure of the transmitter would affect the whole radar.

High ECM resistance, since the fast scan of the AESA radar makes it hard for ECM devices to correct the azimuth ('angle' to put it simply) and elevation the radar's lobe is directed. Also since AESA have high gain thus high ERP, so noise jamming techniques used by some ECM devices wouldn't work in trying to jam the radar.

Fast scan of the emitter, gives it LPI features.

With that said, I wouldn't mind if our FC-20s got PESA, AESA would be a preference. But both Passive/Active ESA enjoy advantages over other radars.

regards,

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## HANI

with so much advantages what will be the price difference in both the radars in terms of whole j10 B? And despite of price difference why would PAF select PESA over AESA ???????? In current scenario when our Enemy is getting super Suks with AESA and also getting brand new fighters either Euro fighter or Rafael why would we get a J10 with out a good radar ? I think its time to get out of old tech and armed our fighters with some new gadgets as for now we have some serious threats on our afghan border also.


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## Jungibaaz

HANI said:


> with so much advantages what will be the price difference in both the radars in terms of whole j10 B? And despite of price difference why would PAF select PESA over AESA ????????


Shouldn't worry about the cost too much, unlike western projects, Chinese AESA wont set us back by too much. I don't expect the price difference between KLJ-10 and possible AESA to change by a significant amount. The gap would be even smaller between AESA and PESA.

Maybe someone else can shed some light on the issue.



> In current scenario when our Enemy is getting super Suks with AESA and also getting brand new fighters either Euro fighter or Rafael why would we get a J10 with out a good radar ?


No we will get a good radar, AESA is likely. 
We had some stats about the T/R modules a while ago, the number was something like 1200 T/R modules which isn't bad at all.

Remember J-10B will have technologies from CAC's 5th gen.



> I think its time to get out of old tech and armed our fighters with some new gadgets as for now we have some serious threats on our afghan border also.



I am confident PAF will be able to deal with our neighbors to the East, but facing up to the USN or USAF, isn't something we can do. You have to be realistic, instead of spending heavily to try to face up to them and get nowhere, money could be better spent elsewhere.

regards,

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## HANI

Jungibaaz said:


> No we will get a good radar, AESA is likely.
> We had some stats about the T/R modules a while ago, the number was something like 1200 T/R modules which isn't bad at all.
> 
> Remember J-10B will have technologies from CAC's 5th gen.
> 
> 
> regards,



I didn,t get this part brother bec i am not of engineering side i am a environmentalist so plz explain this to me what T/R modules are and how it is good for us ????????????


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## CallsignAlzaeem

HANI said:


> I didn,t get this part brother bec i am not of engineering side i am a environmentalist so plz explain this to me what T/R modules are and how it is good for us ????????????



Instead of getting into all that technical thing just understand this that more the T/R (Transmit/Receive) modules better the AESA radar and 1200 T/R modules in Chinese AESA radar means a radar equivalent of a F-35 (fifth gen) radar.

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## Jungibaaz

HANI said:


> I didn,t get this part brother bec i am not of engineering side i am a environmentalist so plz explain this to me what T/R modules are and how it is good for us ????????????



T/R modules. To put it simply are Transmit/receive modules, the number of T/R modules directly impacts the performance of the radar. 

To put it into perspective... the F-35's radar has 1200 T/R modules, the Captor of the EFT has 1400 T/R modules and the Rafale's RBE2 has 1000 T/R modules, the F-16 Block 60 has 1000 T/R Modules.

And of course the j-10B's radar is said to have 1200 T/R modules

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## HANI

Thanx alot brothers now i get it . But one que remains r v getting this AESA or simply PESA


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## abdulbarijan

HANI said:


> Thanx alot brothers now i get it . But one que remains r v getting this AESA or simply PESA


AESA...as a few pages back it was confirmed that J-10B has an AESA...


----------



## Manticore

Rampless Inlet

The J-10B features a chin-mounted diffuser supersonic inlet (DSI) air inlet. The J-10B features a chin-mounted diffuser supersonic inlet (DSI) air inlet. The traditional rectangle-shape air inlet on the J-10 requires a large moveable inlet ramp to generate a rearward leaning oblique shock wave to aid the inlet compression process. The traditional rectangle-shape air inlet on the J-10 requires a large moveable inlet ramp to generate a rearward leaning oblique shock wave to aid the inlet compression process. The ramp sits at an acute angle to deflect the intake air stream from the longitudinal direction. The ramp sits at an acute angle to the intake air Deflect stream from the longitudinal direction. The air inlets comprises many moving parts, which increases the aircraft's weight and radar reflections. The air Inlets comprises many moving parts, which increases the aircraft's weight and radar reflections.

The newly designed rampless inlet, first tested on the FC-1/JF-17 fighter design by Chengdu, employs a one-piece bump at the top of the inlet replacing the movable ramp. The newly designed rampless inlet, first tested on the FC-1/JF-17 fighter design by Chengdu, employs a one-piece bump at the top of the inlet replacing the movable ramp. This eliminates all moving parts on the inlet, lightening the overall weight and reducing the aircraft's radar signature. This eliminates all moving parts on the inlet, lightening the overall weight and reducing the aircraft's radar signature.
Electro-Optic Targeting System Electro-Optic Targeting System

The J-10B has been added with an electronic-optic targeting system (EOTS) commonly found on all fourth-generation Russian fighter aircraft such as Su-27 and MiG-29 . The J-10B has been added with an electronic-optic targeting system (EOTS) commonly found on all fourth-generation Russian fighter aircraft such as Su-27 and MiG-29 . Placed forward of the cockpit canopy to the right, the system comprises an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor and a laser rangefinder, which can detect enemy targets passively without requiring to turn on the fire-control radar, thus reducing the chance of the aircraft being detected. Placed forward of the cockpit canopy to the right, the system comprises an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor and a laser rangefinder, which can detect enemy targets passively without requiring to turn on the fire-control radar, thus reducing the chance of the aircraft being detected. The EOTS of the J-10B is likely based on a Russian design. The EOTS of the J-10B is likely based on a Russian design. 

Tailfin ECM Pod

The upper edge of J-10B's tailfin is curved, in contrast to the straight-edged tailfin of the J-10 . The upper edge of J-10B's tailfin is curved, in contrast to the straight-edged tailfin of the J-10 . A large fairing is added to the tip of the tailfin to accommodate electronic warfare and countermeasures (EW/ECM) equipment. A large fairing is added to the tip of the tailfin to accommodate electronic warfare and countermeasures (EW / ECM) equipment.
ECM Antenna Array ECM Antenna Array

The J-10B has four black antenna arrays attached externally to the fuselage, a larger one on either side of the cockpit and a smaller one on either side of the rear fuselage near the engine nozzle. The J-10B has four black antenna arrays attached externally to the fuselage, a larger one on either side of the cockpit and a smaller one on either side of the rear fuselage near the engine nozzle. The specific purpose of these antennas is unknown but they are thought to be for electronic countermeasures purpose. The specific purpose of these antennas is unknown but they are thought to be for electronic countermeasures purpose. 

Oct 2011, The People's Liberation Army Air Force has denied rumors of a Chinese fighter jet crashing during a recent test flight in Northwest China's Shaanxi Province, according to a post on the website of the flagship newspaper People's Daily.

"It is a completely fabricated report and a rumor," the post cited military sources as saying. "It is a completely fabricated report and a rumor," the post cited military sources as saying.

The rumor surfaced online after a microblog entry claimed that a J10B fighter jet recently crashed during a test flight in Shaanxi, causing the death of the pilot. The rumor surfaced online after a microblog entry and claimed that J10B fighter jet crashed recently during a test flight in Shaanxi, causing the death of the pilot.

According to the People's Daily website, military sources confirmed their knowledge of the false online report, which has been found to have been originally fabricated and posted by a Beijing-based website editor surnamed Pei and later spread inappropriately by other media. According to the People's Daily website, military sources confirmed their knowledge of the false report online, which has been found to have been fabricated and originally posted by a Beijing-based website editor surnamed Pei inappropriately and later spread by other media. 

Recently, China announced the J-10B fighter plane.

The aircraft is the latest version of China's fourth generation fighter aircraft J-10, beling similar to FC-1, it used the clam-type inlet, abandoned the traditional rectangular inlet design, in the case of the normal work of the aircraft engine ensured, the aircraft was simplified design, reduced the moving parts of the inlet, in reducing the weight of the aircraft at the same time, also reduced the cross section of the aircraft's radar. The aircraft is the latest version of China's fourth generation fighter aircraft J-10, Belinga similar to FC-1, it used the clam-type inlet, abandoned the traditional rectangular inlet design, in the case of the normal work of the aircraft engine ensured , the aircraft was simplified design, reduced the moving parts of the inlet, in reducing the weight of the aircraft at the same time, also reduced the cross section of the aircraft's radar.













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## Emmie

HANI said:


> I didn,t get this part brother bec i am not of engineering side i am a environmentalist so plz explain this to me what T/R modules are and how it is good for us ????????????



Transmit receive module (T/R module) is actually a building block of AESA radar, its a self-possessed package. Each T/R module has its own transmitter, receiver, processing power and a small antenna on top. Modules can work independently, can also work together to create a powerful radar. T/R modules can work in groups; some working together as "radar warning reciever", some working together as a jammer and remaining working as a radar.

More are the numbers of T/R modules better is the radar in its function.

Advantages of an AESA radar.

1- Greater detection range.
2- Can scan extremely fast thus large numbers of targets are scaned, so greater engagement range.
3- Very low radar signature.
4- Multiple target tracking
5- Radio jamming
6- Some percetantage of T/R modules failure will not cause loss of function.
7- Less repair becuase of MTBF more than 1000 hours

And list goes on....

P.S: I am not a professional so info can be wrong.... Experts please rectify if concept is faulty

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## araz

Rampless Inlet

The J-10B features a chin-mounted diffuser supersonic inlet (DSI) air inlet. The traditional rectangle-shape air inlet on the J-10 requires a large moveable inlet ramp to generate a rearward leaning oblique shock wave to aid the inlet compression process. The ramp sits at an acute angle to the intake air Deflect stream from the longitudinal direction. The air inlets comprises many moving parts, which increases the aircraft's weight and radar reflections.
The newly designed rampless inlet, first tested on the FC-1/JF-17 fighter design by Chengdu, employs a one-piece bump at the top of the inlet replacing the movable ramp. This eliminates all moving parts on the inlet, lightening the overall weight and reducing the aircraft's radar signature.
Electro-Optic Targeting System Electro-Optic Targeting System

The J-10B has been added with an electronic-optic targeting system (EOTS) commonly found on all fourth-generation Russian fighter aircraft such as Su-27 and MiG-29 . Placed forward of the cockpit canopy to the right, the system comprises an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor and a laser rangefinder, which can detect enemy targets passively without requiring to turn on the fire-control radar, thus reducing the chance of the aircraft being detected. The EOTS of the J-10B is likely based on a Russian design. 

Tailfin ECM Pod

The upper edge of J-10B's tailfin is curved, in contrast to the straight-edged tailfin of the J-10 . A large fairing is added to the tip of the tailfin to accommodate electronic warfare and countermeasures (EW / ECM) equipment.
ECM Antenna Array ECM Antenna Array

The J-10B has four black antenna arrays attached externally to the fuselage, a larger one on either side of the cockpit and a smaller one on either side of the rear fuselage near the engine nozzle. The specific purpose of these antennas is unknown but they are thought to be for electronic countermeasures purpose. 

Oct 2011, The People's Liberation Army Air Force has denied rumors of a Chinese fighter jet crashing during a recent test flight in Northwest China's Shaanxi Province, according to a post on the website of the flagship newspaper People's Daily.

"It is a completely fabricated report and a rumor," the post cited military sources as saying. "It is a completely fabricated report and a rumor," the post cited military sources as saying.

The rumor surfaced online after a microblog entry claimed that a J10B fighter jet recently crashed during a test flight in Shaanxi, causing the death of the pilot.
. According to the People's Daily website, military sources confirmed their knowledge of the false report online, which has been found to have been fabricated and originally posted by a Beijing-based website editor surnamed Pei inappropriately and later spread by other media. 

Recently, China announced the J-10B fighter plane.

The aircraft is the latest version of China's fourth generation fighter aircraft J-10, beling similar to FC-1, it used the clam-type inlet, abandoned the traditional rectangular inlet design, in the case of the normal work of the aircraft engine ensured, the aircraft was simplified design, reduced the moving parts of the inlet, in reducing the weight of the aircraft at the same time, also reduced the cross section of the aircraft's radar. The aircraft is the latest version of China's fourth generation fighter aircraft J-10, Belinga similar to FC-1, it used the clam-type inlet, abandoned the traditional rectangular inlet design, in the case of the normal work of the aircraft engine ensured , the aircraft was simplified design, reduced the moving parts of the inlet, in reducing the weight of the aircraft at the same time, also reduced the cross section of the aircraft's radar.

Sorry Antibody.
The duplicated sentences were doing my head in so I took the liberty of correcting them and reposting the post

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## HANI




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## SBD-3

HANI said:


>


these pictures have been posted at least 3 times before already


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## SBD-3

Emmie said:


> Transmit receive module (T/R module) is actually a building block of AESA radar, its a self-possessed package. Each T/R module has its own transmitter, receiver, processing power and a small antenna on top. Modules can work independently, can also work together to create a powerful radar. T/R modules can work in groups; some working together as "radar warning reciever", some working together as a jammer and remaining working as a radar.
> 
> More are the numbers of T/R modules better is the radar in its function.
> 
> Advantages of an AESA radar.
> 
> 1- Greater detection range.
> 2- Can scan extremely fast thus large numbers of targets are scaned, so greater engagement range.
> 3- Very low radar signature.
> 4- Multiple target tracking
> 5- Radio jamming
> 6- Some percetantage of T/R modules failure will not cause loss of function.
> 7- Less repair becuase of MTBF more than 1000 hours
> 
> And list goes on....
> 
> P.S: I am not a professional so info can be wrong.... Experts please rectify if concept is faulty



1- Greater detection range. (not necessarily, depends upon how do you describe detection) 
2- Can scan extremely fast thus large numbers of targets are scaned, so greater engagement range. (Greater engagement capability since it can correctly track a large number of aircrafts thus can transmit their more precise coordinates to the missile(s) during mid course homing 
3- Very low radar signature. (Its rather probability of intercept i.e. the probability that the enemy RWR will be able to detect your radar signals)
4- Multiple target tracking (Correct)
5- Radio jamming (correct!, since it can emitt massive energy through radar, thus effectively radar itself can be used as a Jamming device)
6- Some percetantage of T/R modules failure will not cause loss of function. (Correct!)
7- Less repair becuase of MTBF more than 1000 hours. (Correct! The initial cost of installment is high though)


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## nomi007

is fc-20 base on j-10b or j-10a

---------- Post added at 05:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 PM ----------


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## abdulbarijan

nomi007 said:


> is fc-20 base on j-10b or j-10a
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 PM ----------





Please go through the previous posts
as ur question goes probably the best answer would be
*"even J-10B is based on J-10A"..LOL!*
so as long as it can serve as a higher end aircraft for PAF..there is nothing to worry about..


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## Xracer

nomi007 said:


> is fc-20 base on j-10b or j-10a
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 PM ----------



Yes Bro FC20 is a variant for PAF of j10 b

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## Storm Force

Any offical confirmation on when these FC20 will arrive in PAF and also how many.


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## HANI

hasnain0099 said:


> these pictures have been posted at least 3 times before already


 Mafi chahta hu sir i have a weak IQ

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## razgriz19

Storm Force said:


> Any offical confirmation on when these FC20 will arrive in PAF and also how many.



previous rumours/announcements suggest they will be here by 2014. 36 of them.
i dont know how authentic are they though...

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## Dazzler

HANI said:


> Mafi chahta hu sir i have a weak IQ



you mean weak memory

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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> previous rumours/announcements suggest they will be here by 2014. 36 of them.
> i dont know how authentic are they though...


 that was the last known delivery date. it will definately be later.


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## SBD-3

razgriz19 said:


> previous rumours/announcements suggest they will be here by 2014. 36 of them.
> i dont know how authentic are they though...


Thats has been quite confusing given China has officially offered Pakistan 1 squadron of J-10Bs, I think the earlier J-10 deal for 36 may have been dropped.....but its just my speculation


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## fatman17

hasnain0099 said:


> Thats has been quite confusing given China has officially offered Pakistan 1 squadron of J-10Bs, I think the earlier J-10 deal for 36 may have been dropped.....but its just my speculation



mere speculation!

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## nomi007

China&#8217;s J-10B Advanced Fighters To Pakistan Worries India ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

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## nomi007

---------- Post added at 02:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 PM ----------

variants of j-10


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## HANI

nabil_05 said:


> you mean weak memory



Same to same sir g hahahaha


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## nomi007

cutaway

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## killerx

Xracer said:


> Yes Bro FC20 is a variant for PAF of j10 b


nice photoshop man

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## killerx

nomi007 said:


> ---------- Post added at 02:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 PM ----------
> 
> variants of j-10



yea but j10b its an upgrade version like block 2 the image shows twin seater as j10b explain

---------- Post added at 05:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:13 PM ----------




nomi007 said:


> cutaway



is this official spes

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## Donatello

nomi007 said:


> cutaway




Who are they marketing to?

If anything, it should be in either Urdu or Chinese Language........

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## killerx

penumbra said:


> Who are they marketing to?
> 
> If anything, it should be in either Urdu or Chinese Language........


does some one have english version of this upload it plz

---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:37 PM ----------




nomi007 said:


> cutaway



does some one have english version of this upload it plz

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## Storm Force

It looks a very potent Fighter. 

I cant comment on chinease electronic warefare or radars or indeed Missles etc BUT at around $40m each its GREAT BANK FOR BUCK.

i HAVE said this before THIS IS CLEARLY a suitable deterrant to the 270 su30mki then both the 63 F16 (constant usa sanction threat) AND THE THUNDER which is smaller lighter fighter which will not be packed up like the FC 20 with bigger payload and longer reach.

PLAAF plan to have over 500 J10/FC20 by 2020 maybe more ALONG SIDE equal no of flankers


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## SBD-3

Storm Force said:


> It looks a very potent Fighter.
> 
> * I cant comment on chinease electronic warefare or radars *or indeed Missles etc BUT at around $40m each its GREAT BANK FOR BUCK.


Given your posting record, indeed you shouldn't



> i HAVE said this before THIS IS CLEARLY a suitable deterrant to the 270 su30mki then both the 63 F16 (constant usa sanction threat) AND THE THUNDER which is smaller lighter fighter which will not be packed up like the FC 20 with bigger payload and longer reach.










> PLAAF plan to have over 500 J10/FC20 by 2020 maybe more ALONG SIDE equal no of flankers


PLAAF is speculated to be already operating around 300 J-10s as we speak, what makes you believe that they will not be only adding 200 more in next 8 years?..

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## Storm Force

Hasnain as you said

SPECULATION 

They have AROUND 200... 

The chinease are also smart. They will acquire 300 more BUT these will be upgraded versions ie bock 2 & block 3 etc.

BEYOND 2020 they will switch to complete induction of fifth gen fighters only 

J20 is too big and too cumbersome I see a single engined Chinease fifth gen fighter arriving on the scence around 2020..

The resaon they will induct ONLY 500 J10 not more is because their immediate adversaries will be fielding superior jets

USN F18S/H F22 & F35
Japan F35 & F15
India SU30MKI & TYPHOON. 
South Korea FSX fighter & F15K 
Russia PAK FA & SU35

For this reason i see FAR MORE INVESTMENT on J20 & SINGLE ENGINED FIFTH GEN FIGHTER.
After 2018 AND 500 VANGUARDS... J10/FC20


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## Pak47

Storm Force said:


> It looks a very potent Fighter.
> 
> I cant comment on chinease electronic warefare or radars or indeed Missles etc BUT at around $40m each its GREAT BANK FOR BUCK.
> 
> i HAVE said this before THIS IS CLEARLY a suitable deterrant to the 270 su30mki then both the 63 F16 (constant usa sanction threat) AND THE THUNDER which is smaller lighter fighter which will not be packed up like the FC 20 with bigger payload and longer reach.
> 
> PLAAF plan to have over 500 J10/FC20 by 2020 maybe more ALONG SIDE equal no of flankers



Plans..

Su 30 mki vs F-16 block 52+ and Jf-17 Block 2
MMRCA Vs Fc-20
T-50 vs J2x

This is how i see acquiring planes. This is also why you won't see Fc-20 in large numbers unless MMRCA is officially ordered.

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## nomi007

killerx said:


> yea but j10b its an upgrade version like block 2 the image shows twin seater as j10b explain
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:13 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> is this official spes


i download image from a site but i m not sure about this

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## killerx

yar some go the official specs in english plz post it of FC20


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## killerx

nomi007 said:


> i download image from a site but i m not sure about this


one here is a j10A right what about he official specs


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## air marshal

*J-10B Vigorous Dragon*

The latest 1035 prototype of the J-10B was photographed at CAC airfield in July 2011, revealing the indigenous WS-10B (?) turbofan engine. This much improved variant (1031 prototype) made its maiden flight on December 23, 2008, powered by a Russian AL-31FN engine. The improvements include a DSI/bump engine inlet which not only cuts weight but also reduces RCS, after a similar design was first tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. The aircraft also features a J-11B style IRST/LR and a wide-angle holographic HUD. IRST enables passive detection of enemy aircraft, making J-10B more stealthy in combat. Its nose appears flatter too, similar to that of American F-16, and fire-control radar is thought to be an X-band AESA developed by the 14th Institute (track 10, engage 4 simultaneously), the first of such type ever being developed for a Chinese fighter aircraft, giving J-10B a stronger multi-target engagement and ECCM capability. Two large pods housing testing equipments are attached under the wings. The tip of vertical tailfin was redesigned as well, featuring a large fairing containing communication and ECM antennas, which resembles that of French Mirage 2000. A rear facing MAWS sensor can be seen underneath the parachute boom. A similar system was tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. RAM coating is also expected in certain areas such as engine inlet and wing leading edges to reduce RCS. The aircraft may be fitted with CFTs in the future to further extend its range. All these improvements suggest that J-10B is equipped with a new generation of integrated electronic system, ranging from radar to EW system. Its mission may be changed from air-superiority to multi-role, such as CAS or EW. For air-superiority mission, normally 6 AAMs (PL-12x4 + PL-8x2, PL-12s are carried underneath the twin-rail launch pylon) can be carried. For CAS mission, normally 2 KD-88 AGMs or LS-500J LGBs can be carried. In addition, the aircraft is expected to be powered eventually by a WS-10B turbofan. Overall J-10B is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60. The 03 prototype first flew in August 2009, with the pitot tube removed from the nose tip. Both 1031 & 1034 prototypes are currently being tested at CFTE. J-10B is likely to serve as a testbed for various advanced technologies adopted by the 4th generation J-20 (see below) currently under development at CAC thus may not enter the service in large quantity with PLAAF. The production of J-10B is expected to be imminent (07 batch?). The initial batches are likely to be powered by Russian AL-31FN engines due to the low productivity rate of WS-10B.

- Last Updated 12/25/11


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## PakShaheen79

I am yet to see an OFFICIAL link from either side proving FC-20 is J-10B. To my understanding, it is a customized version of J-10A.


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## Pak47

PakShaheen79 said:


> I am yet to see an OFFICIAL link from either side proving FC-20 is J-10B. To my understanding, it is a customized version of J-10A.



Im not sure.. in this article.. it says "china anounced it would give PAF J10-B," but if you continue to read on.. 
it says "Pakistan initially ordered 36 J10A's"

i would at this rate conclude if j10a= 1 and j10b= 2 
Fc-20 will be around 1.6-2.0

Bottomline since we are to receave the jets in 2014-2015 time frame. You will see more elements from J-10B than J-10A
Procurement: China Gives J-10s Away

August 4, 2011: China recently announced that it would give Pakistan a squadron of J-10B fighter-bombers. That would be about twelve aircraft, which have been offered for export, for about half what the similar F-16 cost. The only buyer so far has been Pakistan, which ordered 36 J-10As earlier this year, with the goal of eventually getting 150. So the offer to Pakistan is mainly promotional (to get a foreign "customer" who can say what swell aircraft the J-10B is) and partly political (to show what a good ally China is, coming to the aid of Pakistan when the United States is threatening to cut the billions of dollars a year Pakistan has been receiving.) 
However, the J-10 is the kind of gift most air forces would rather not receive. The J-10 is a strange, and dubious, war bird. Moreover, it was only two years ago that China publicly admitted that its new J-10 jet fighter existed. This despite the fact that the J-10 had entered service six years earlier, and there were plenty of J-10 photos on the Internet.

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## houshanghai

In CDF,PUPU said PAF J10 will be J10B,however Huzigeng said PAF J10 is a modified J10A
Actually, pupu and huzigeng are very reliable source of inside infos in CDF,

FC20 is modified J10A that is huzigeng's view





VS

FC20 is J10B that is pupu's view






i think this is still a secret between AVIC and PAF,Only time can show who was right...LOL

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## Pak47

I believe the first initial batch of 36 will be upgraded J-10A's, with later batches being J-10B's. 
J-10B will be available to Paf by 2014-2015 time frame.. after China has them equiped. 

I have also read we can see some Fc-20's for PAF in late 2012. If we get Fc-20's before 2013 they are J-10A if we see the first squadron by Late 2014 they will be J-10B's.

This is what i have come to conclude. Time is of the essance now.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Pak47 said:


> Im not sure.. in this article.. it says "china anounced it would give PAF J10-B," but if you continue to read on..
> it says "Pakistan initially ordered 36 J10A's"
> 
> i would at this rate conclude if j10a= 1 and j10b= 2
> Fc-20 will be around 1.6-2.0
> 
> Bottomline since we are to receave the jets in 2014-2015 time frame. You will see more elements from J-10B than J-10A
> Procurement: China Gives J-10s Away
> 
> August 4, 2011:* China recently announced that it would give Pakistan a squadron of J-10B
> fighter-bomber*s. That would be about twelve aircraft, which have been offered for export, for about half what the similar F-16 cost. The only buyer so far has been Pakistan, which ordered 36 J-10As earlier this year, with the goal of eventually getting 150. *So the offer to Pakistan is mainly promotional (to get a foreign "customer" who can say what swell aircraft the J-10B is) and partly political (to show what a good ally China is, coming to the aid of Pakistan when the United States is threatening to cut the billions of dollars a year Pakistan has been receiving.) *
> However, the J-10 is the kind of gift most air forces would rather not receive. The J-10 is a strange, and dubious, war bird. Moreover, it was only two years ago that China publicly admitted that its new J-10 jet fighter existed. This despite the fact that the J-10 had entered service six years earlier, and there were plenty of J-10 photos on the Internet.



*Wow BONUS squadron !!! 18-24 planes !!! * fantastic that would replace quite a few Mirages no doubt !!! 

Hmm Shamsi Airbase could use some Promotional J10 fighters 


China Officially Offers Pakistan J-10 Variant
By USMAN ANSARI
Published: 3 Aug 2011 10:22
Print Email
Bookmark and Share

ISLAMABAD - China for the first time officially offered Pakistan a variant of its most advanced frontline fighter, the Chengdu J-10 Vigorous Dragon/F-10 Vanguard.


Official Pakistani interest in the fighter dates back to February 2006, when then-Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf toured the J-10 production facilities on a trip to China. Pakistani government approval for the purchase of 36 FC-20s, a Pakistani-specific variant, was given in April 2006. Service entry was slated for the middle of the decade.

Precise details of the deal are not yet known. However, Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, said "the initial deal will be for at least two squadrons [at least 32 aircraft] and will be financed by China via a soft, long-term loan."

*Analyst Kaiser Tufail said the J-10's operational autonomy would be far greater than that provided by the U.S.-built F-16C.
*
"It has to be remembered that India refused to consider the F-16C/D and F-18E/F, as they wanted a freer hand in operability aspects as well as technology transfer, which the U.S. was unwilling to provide," Tufail said.
*
With the J-10, Pakistan would "be able to operate it in an environment not constrained by security restrictions," and could base the aircraft wherever desired, Tufail said. He also said the lack of technology-transfer restrictions from the original equipment manufacturer is a factor.
*
"The J-10 will provide F-16-class capabilities for Pakistan but without the cost and political encumbrances of U.S.-sourced aircraft," Carlo Kopp of the Air Power Australia think tank said.

"What a J-10 would provide is quantity over any U.S.- or EU-sourced product," Kopp said, though he is still uncertain whether China will supply "pre-loved J-10A&#8230;or new-build J-10A or J-10B airframes."

Shabbir said the broader Sino-Pakistani combat aircraft relationship has eroded Western influence over Pakistan, though he remains concerned about the implications Pakistan's fragile economy has for its defense capabilities.
*
"The availability of J-10 and JF-17 from the Chinese means that Pakistan is now not that reliant on the U.S. and Europe for its aircraft requirements, and this of course will erode U.S influence over Pakistan in the long term," he said.
*
The Pakistani Air Force is the largest operator of U.S supplied weapons in South Asia and therefore most vulnerable to sanctions.


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## nomi007

killerx said:


> one here is a j10A right what about he official specs


no 1 knows officials specifications


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## houshanghai

PLAAF J10A tactical training in Tibet( -15°C)

China J10A Deployment in Tibet - YouTube






















thx to Henri K

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## yyetttt

It looks just like the Typhoon.


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## ziaulislam

Storm Force said:


> Hasnain as you said
> 
> SPECULATION
> 
> They have AROUND 200...
> 
> The chinease are also smart. They will acquire 300 more BUT these will be upgraded versions ie bock 2 & block 3 etc.
> 
> BEYOND 2020 they will switch to complete induction of fifth gen fighters only
> 
> J20 is too big and too cumbersome I see a single engined Chinease fifth gen fighter arriving on the scence around 2020..
> 
> The resaon they will induct ONLY 500 J10 not more is because their immediate adversaries will be fielding superior jets
> 
> USN F18S/H F22 & F35
> Japan F35 & F15
> India SU30MKI & TYPHOON.
> South Korea FSX fighter & F15K
> Russia PAK FA & SU35
> 
> For this reason i see FAR MORE INVESTMENT on J20 & SINGLE ENGINED FIFTH GEN FIGHTER.
> After 2018 AND 500 VANGUARDS... J10/FC20


the j-10b were desing to counter any fourth gen(chinese 3rd gen) i.e f-18 or indian su 30 mki, f-15 or su 35..only thing that wount match it in one to one configartion are f-35,PAK-FA..for that j-20 will be inducted.

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## kafumanpk

Do not waste money on a Chinese fighter. Pakistan can buy more F16. F16 is the best third-generation light aircraft. U.S. technology is the best in the world.


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## rcrmj

kafumanpk said:


> Do not waste money on a Chinese fighter. Pakistan can buy more F16. F16 is the best third-generation light aircraft. U.S. technology is the best in the world.


sorry already wasted, so please cry to your mama about it

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## killerx

kafumanpk said:


> Do not waste money on a Chinese fighter. Pakistan can buy more F16. F16 is the best third-generation light aircraft. U.S. technology is the best in the world.



okay my friend i agree F16 is good fighter jet but china is loyal friend of Pakistan and America on other hand for f16 or each penny of there financial relief demands more blood shed in of Pakistan nation china fighter just are very good they have helped us built one JF17 thunder block1 which is 4th generation fighter jet and 4.5 is coming end of this year. And not to mention large no J10B which are more then 4.5 gen equal to f16 and F18 4.5 gen .

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## Zabaniyah

kafumanpk said:


> Do not waste money on a Chinese fighter. Pakistan can buy more F16. F16 is the best third-generation light aircraft. U.S. technology is the best in the world.



After 349 pages on the J-10 discussion, you come down to this? Some people can be so naive. 

Not saying that the F-16 is bad. But J-10/FC-20 has good potential. Please, read up the developments.

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## Pioneerfirst

PakShaheen79 said:


> I am yet to see an OFFICIAL link from either side proving FC-20 is J-10B. To my understanding, it is a customized version of J-10A.



I personally think same,
Jf-17 block two will cost us around 30 million $/piece and PAF has 1.2 billion allocated for FC-20 it means each will be @ 33.33 million $ so I do not expect AESA and thrust vectoring at this price.


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## Zabaniyah

AESA would be damn sweet though...


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## abdulbarijan

Pioneerfirst said:


> I personally think same,
> Jf-17 block two will cost us around 30 million $/piece and PAF has 1.2 billion allocated for FC-20 it means each will be @ 33.33 million $ so I do not expect AESA and thrust vectoring at this price.


Firstly the rumor was of 1.4 Billion dollar deal with the initial target being 36 jets ..
Thats almost 40 million per piece...
Now I dont see how can an AESA + avionics upgrade cant come up .. looking at the likes of JF-17 Thunder which comes with modern avionics in the range of 15-20 million..
just sayin...
And the fact that PAF waited sooo long for this plane indicates that we wanted new things on this..avionics upgrades dont take that much..remember we were first offered J-10A's in 2006 I guess...so PAF waited nearly 6 years for just avionics upgrades..
I dont think so..


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## air marshal

*Calendar 2012*

A formation of J-10B and JF-17 Thunder on a routine training sortie.

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## fatman17

the issue with FC-20/J-10A or B is the engine. its russian and china has not requested russia for re-export permit.


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## PakShaheen79

Hmmm... Yeah that sounds more reasonable. WS-10B is still not avaiable in numbers.


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## nomi007

any info about ws-13


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## SBD-3

Alan Warnes....


> @WasimAfzal1 They continue to evaluate FC-20 but as CATIC Chairman told me at Dubai - the Chinese Govt will not allow export right now.


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## Pak47



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## untitled

kafumanpk said:


> When the Chinese to provide J10, these aircraft are outdated. We have been waiting a long time, why do they still delay?



By *we* do you mean Pakistani, Japanese or American? I see you have pk at the end of your ID which means you are probably a confused Pakistani



> The great Pakistani government, why not buy F35? Pakistan can use all the means.



You seriously need to read more news

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## 帅的一匹

military is just a attachement to politics. Try to think if Pakistan buying F-35 incase of having war with India, Idian will know every single secret and reference of the plane, then it sure will be shot down by MKI nomatter how advaced it is. And it's very tough to replenish components and parts during wars, especially doing business with trick uncle Sam. What pakitan need is stable supply , not the most advanced plane in the word. As to my point of view, F-35 is a expensive toy for Pakistan in practial regional conflict.

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## 帅的一匹

There a only two country packing up J-10b, China and Pakistan.Thunder might be sold to other third world country for making profit. It is Pakistan, the only one true firend of China in the world, will get access to J10-B. Pakistani pilot is very familiar with western aircraft, they could give advice how should Chinese scientist to improve it. Soon, everyone will see a J-10Cwith double seat with retractable fuelling pod,as well as thrust vectoring system. Long life friendship between Pakistan and China!

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## 帅的一匹

Have to acknowlege that J-10's glory is not totally accountable for Chinese, it is also including lots'of efforts from highly educated patriotic expatriates and lots of anonymous soviet union retired scientist working in China. Why China can bring out so many new battle plane due to down formentioned reasons:
1.Economic grows room us large military budget
2.International situatation is getting worse
3.Reframe the talents recruting policy by offering hign salary and motivation procedure
4.Open doors elite scientist all over the world 
5. To build a new regional politic standing in Asia and make china strong once again
6.Let westerner know Chinese is clever and can build anything they don't wann sell us, the technical blocking policy inflicted on China only could delay the modernization of PLA, but the achievement is not ever gonna be turned.

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## 帅的一匹

It is also feasiblle to send technical maintenance personnels to Pakistan if the situation is getting worse. China also can trasfer free of charge PLAAF's in service J-10A to PAF in case of regional conflicts if the J10B delivery schedule is not that quick.

---------- Post added at 08:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 AM ----------

cause the traing to Pakistni pilot of driving J-10 is alredy on the war.

---------- Post added at 08:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 AM ----------

Any way, money is bullshit in the war.








å¤ªè¿&#8225;ç&#732;¾äº&#8224;ï¼å®&#382;æ&#8249;æ*¼10Bæ&#710;&#732;æ&#8211;&#8212;æ&#339;ºè¯&#8226;é£&#382;é&#339;&#8225;æ&#8217;¼ä¸&#8364;å¹&#8226; - è§&#8224;é¢&#8216; - ä¼&#732;é&#8230;·è§&#8224;é¢&#8216; - å&#339;¨çº¿è§&#8218;ç&#339;&#8249;
Enlosed is the landing moment of J-10B recently , can you gus see it? When i upload the link URL, it ermerge like garbage text,can any one help>

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## 帅的一匹

a new picture of J-10B carring AESA RADAR
[video]http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjk3MDIzODU2.html[/video]
A video CLIP of J-10b landing


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## 帅的一匹

fatman17 said:


> the issue with FC-20/J-10A or B is the engine. its russian and china has not requested russia for re-export permit.


China had successfully put WS10A in use, which is a reinforced prototype of AL-31.Why we still buy hundreds of AL-31 is that our production line of WS10A is overloaded,we need to bring in usable engine to pack up PLAAF into fight force ASAP in case of regional conflict, what Chinese goverment has the most is US dollar that's what Russian loved. As long as the window period is over, no single AL-31will be purchased by CHINA, i promise you my friend.Every chinese pilot interviewed credit J10 for it's super manueaverability.As we all know main chinese look implicit when they express themself, or the national security won't let any pilot say in the public how good feel is driving a J-10 with WS10A. It is still a sensitive topic in china even now.

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## nomi007



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## killerx

i am getting confused here FC20 and j10b are not the same


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## [--Leo--]

Every buddy is confused so wait till we recive the FC-20


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## regular

I guess China is doing excellently on J-10/FC-20 project.......we will see them here soon......Insha-Allah......

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## 帅的一匹

J-10B carries air to air missles and dropping fuelling pods ready for take off


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## killerx

FC20 any details on it is the FC20 J10B the same PAF will be buying J10B as named FC20 right


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## miroofi75

i think J10B is the working model for Pakistan and FC20 will be the final version.


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## graphican

*@ All Informed Guys:*

Why is Chinese J-10 not using retractable probes? If they are not using it, should we expect retractable fuelling probes any-time soon on JFT ?


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## ziaulislam

its unlikly that retrtactable one is used for now for thunder.
by the way if i am not wrong rafale doesnt has retractable refueling probe either


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## IHK_PK

ziaulislam said:


> its unlikly that retrtactable one is used for now for thunder.
> by the way if i am not wrong rafale doesnt has retractable refueling probe either



dont worry dude, i have seen retractable refueling probe on j-10b and it is now flying in china.

---------- Post added at 06:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 AM ----------

rafale's also have the same with rafale C and M models.

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## killerx

refuling probe retractable or not is does not matter only thing counts its refule able ha long range

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## DANGER-ZONE

FC-20/J-10B Program seems to be very much inspired by MMRCA. 
DELAY, DELAY, DELAY or CANCEL. ::

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## KRAIT

danger-zone said:


> FC-20/J-10B Program seems to be very much inspired by MMRCA.
> DELAY, DELAY, DELAY or CANCEL. ::



Rightly said bro... they said they will announce the lowest bidder by january end and yet again no sign of any development.
Looks like our countries have strong induction effect.


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## ziaulislam

well to be honest j-10 hasnt been delayed..pro gramme was scheduled to be in 2015 ..so it will be delayed when 2016 comes and we don't have them


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## nomi007

KRAIT said:


> Rightly said bro... they said they will announce the lowest bidder by january end and yet again no sign of any development.
> Looks like our countries have strong induction effect.


what non sense
mmrca delay delay delay
tejas delay delay delay
china now have 200+ j-10a soon j-10b will be enter services


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## DANGER-ZONE

nomi007 said:


> what non sense
> mmrca delay delay delay
> tejas delay delay delay
> *china now have 200+ j-10a soon j-10b will be enter services*



Make sure what we are talking about, first!
its about FC-20 of PAF not PLAAF.
So avoid Flaming, bro.


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## 帅的一匹

IHK_PK said:


> dont worry dude, i have seen retractable refueling probe on j-10b and it is now flying in china.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 AM ----------
> 
> rafale's also have the same with rafale C and M models.



Dear Brother, when and where you see it? That's a good news.


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## 帅的一匹

ziaulislam said:


> well to be honest j-10 hasnt been delayed..pro gramme was scheduled to be in 2015 ..so it will be delayed when 2016 comes and we don't have them


Love to see J10B in PAF paint ASAP. FC-20 more probabaly is J-10b not J-10a, so it take sometime as to the test of WS-10B on J-10b complete.


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## abdulbarijan

With the rafale selected For MMRCA I was interested in comparing RBE2 AESA with the Chinese one
Problem being its very hard to get a figure reliable enough,so here is a post from another forum


> *Originally posted by obligatory*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RBE2-AESA
> Tradition i guess, french fighters comes with small radars, tho some raised concern at the time over nose being too small. (on Rafale)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dassault claim that the passive and active arrays &#8220;are thus totally interchangeable, so that all French Rafales will have the capability to be equipped with an AESA&#8221;. Because there was no plan to increase the Rafale&#8217;s nose diameter, the new radar will occupy much the same volume as the present set, though some equipment will have to be removed or relocated. Some believe that the opportunity should have been taken to increase the diameter of Rafale&#8217;s nose to allow a larger diameter array to be fitted, and that the present 55-cm diameter array will be deficient in range compared to the AESA arrays in, or planned for the F-15, F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Typhoon.
Click to expand...





> *Originally posted by houshanghai *
> some guys ( very reliable guys in cdf)disclosed.
> 
> j10b AESA will have 1200 T/R modules&#12290;J20 AESA will have 2200+ T/R modules.



*
So it looks like in terms of T/R modules J-10B's AESA is ahead...
*

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## KRAIT

Dassault website- AESA profile
Smart and discrete sensors

Rafale offered to India.....

and the figure in the post is from f-16 website and the guy who posted isn't an expert.


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## farhan_9909

KRAIT said:


> Dassault website- AESA profile
> Smart and discrete sensors
> 
> Rafale offered to India.....
> 
> and the figure in the post is from f-16 website and the guy who posted isn't an expert.



He mentioned that J-10 AESa radar has more t/r modules than Rafale one

and your site doesnt mention the t/r modules numbers


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## fatman17

its time for PAF to re-assess the J-10 (FC-20) procurement plans.

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## abdulbarijan

Well well 
The last time I remember asking about FC-20 to a reliable source was back in 2010 and all i got then from him was
"mamla thanda hai"
Lets take a look at what happened


-Rumors from CDF of PAF getting a J-10A with customized avionics 

-Dubai 2011 a PAF officer said that "Our modernization plan includes the induction of a J-10 class platform" when the reporter asked the variant he said "ours will be based on the B model"

-When i posted this our very own brother Santro reported that instead of the the earlier plan of inducting the J-10A's PAF has now adopted a more "comprehensive plan" 

-By the time where MMRCA winner was about to be announced Santro reported about the numbers of JF-17's being cut to 150 from the original 250.


*So we can assume that "the comprehensive plan" included reducing the number of JF-17's to increase the number of FC-20's..
*

And the confirmation of that was given before ... by Sir Pshamim who said that the initial numbers were increased from 36 to 58.

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## sancho

fatman17 said:


> its time for PAF to re-assess the J-10 (FC-20) procurement plans.



The problem is development stage and cost. J10A was offered to export customers like Bruma for example, for around $40 millions per unit. Now add PESA or AESA radar, new engines, structural changes and the new avionics and it will be more costly than a JF 17 block 2 or even 3 by then. So it might end up with the usual question, what is more important, quality (J10B) or quantity (JF 17 block 2 or 3s in higher numbers).
It's still not clear how capable J10B really will be, because there are hardly any reliable specs available, but it's defenitely a good fighter that won't be underestimated by IAF.


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## DANGER-ZONE

abdulbarijan said:


> Well well
> The last time I remember asking about FC-20 to a reliable source was back in 2010 and all i got then from him was
> "mamla thanda hai"
> Lets take a look at what happened
> 
> 
> -Rumors from CDF of PAF getting a J-10A with customized avionics
> 
> -Dubai 2011 a PAF officer said that "Our modernization plan includes the induction of a J-10 class platform" when the reporter asked the variant he said "ours will be based on the B model"
> 
> -When i posted this our very own brother Santro reported that instead of the the earlier plan of inducting the J-10A's PAF has now adopted a more "comprehensive plan"
> 
> -By the time where MMRCA winner was about to be announced Santro reported about the numbers of JF-17's being cut to 150 from the original 250.
> 
> 
> *So we can assume that "the comprehensive plan" included reducing the number of JF-17's to increase the number of FC-20's..
> *
> 
> And the confirmation of that was given before ... by Sir Pshamim who said that the initial numbers were increased from 36 to 58.



One question only, Why are you taking Santro that serious, He's a normal Folk like every one here. No body Exactly knows what PAF is planning. So better wait and see. Your question/point is QABAL AZ WAQT


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## farhan_9909

Calm down guys

I am sure J-10B will be in the league of Rafale

bt EFT was a class apart fighter.I dont know in what circumstances indian MOD has chosen the Rafale.
just 4-5million i dont think so.

---------- Post added at 07:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 PM ----------

Calm down guys

I am sure J-10B will be in the league of Rafale

bt EFT was a class apart fighter.I dont know in what circumstances indian MOD has chosen the Rafale.
just 4-5million i dont think so.

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## Najam Khan

abdulbarijan said:


> -By the time where MMRCA winner was about to be announced Santro reported about the numbers of JF-17's being cut to 150 from the original 250.
> 
> 
> *So we can assume that "the comprehensive plan" included reducing the number of JF-17's to increase the number of FC-20's..
> *
> 
> And the confirmation of that was given before ... by Sir Pshamim who said that the initial numbers were increased from 36 to 58.



PAF top command believes in a small but hard hitting force. JF-17's basic role was a timely & better replacement of A-5/F-7 and Mirage fleet, 150 is itself a big number which can't be met before 2020. Induction of FC-20 is related to decision of MMRCA, the threat perception has been there ever since IAF started this project. PAF did great by sitting back and modernizing its structure. Acquisition of BVRs (of both U.S and Chinese origion), procurement of IL-78 MRTT, Saab-2000 & ZD-03, Bk52s, MLU programme, JF-17 programme, Falco and other ISR platforms, replacement of FT-5, modernization of air defence and C4I systems are some major examples.

Now you can yourself think these all things require time and money both. To make PAF a lethal and hard hitting force, the first requirement was to remove aging fleet and train people on newer platforms...its more like a long answer to minimize the MMRCA threat.

The second answer is an indirect move to towards smaller and more lethal nuclear weapons. What extra advantage will MMRCA bring in a small/medium scale and non-contiguous battle space? Their is no answer to Nasr in such scenario. 

The third answer will be acquisition of FC-20, the reason of so much delay is to allow IAF to make a move..while PAF restructures and re-equips itself before replying to it. PAF still has to decide its number...who know they get 3/4 squadrons.

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## sancho

farhan_9909 said:


> Calm down guys
> 
> I am sure J-10B will be in the league of Rafale
> 
> *bt EFT was a class apart fighter.I dont know in what circumstances indian MOD has chosen the Rafale.
> just 4-5million i dont think so.*



 Somebody is either confused, or is playing games here.



farhan_9909 said:


> congrats to india for choosing such a great machine
> 
> *Rafale is way better than EFT and a true multi role fighter*.

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## BelligerentPacifist

NAjAM Khan said:


> ...
> The second answer is an indirect move to towards smaller and more lethal nuclear weapons. What extra advantage will MMRCA bring in a small/medium scale and non-contiguous battle space? Their is no answer to Nasr in such scenario.
> ...


Nuclear weapons need to be factored OUT in the war plan. We have deterrence as India knows we have those physics packages, and will invent new tactics to work under the nuclear rubicon, and we should be prepared to counter those.

Nasr isn't PAF's weapon, let's leave it out too. I know all services will fight in a war, but PAF would do what PAF is designed to do, and firing ('shooting' in an airforce jargon!) a Nasr isn't part of that.

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## Najam Khan

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Nuclear weapons need to be factored OUT in the war plan. We have deterrence as India knows we have those physics packages, and will invent new tactics to work under the nuclear rubicon, and we should be prepared to counter those.
> 
> Nasr isn't PAF's weapon, let's leave it out too. I know all services will fight in a war, but PAF would do what PAF is designed to do, and firing ('shooting' in an airforce jargon!) a Nasr isn't part of that.


 
Firstly who says that Nukes will be used in war? Why are we pushing so hard on this when we know we won't/can't deliver them?..assuming stuff is one thing but considering limitations of such weapons is another. We believe that our Nuclear weapons are the weapons of last resort, but whats the purpose of investing so much money in the tactical nuclear weapons when we are assuming that our Nuclear threshold WILL NOT be crossed by enemy? Why remain in such _khush fehmi_ and keep on relying on conventional weapons only?

I'll clarify if it sounded as if Nasr is PAF's weapon when I said that it is 'an indirect answer' to MMRCA. What I meant was that there is a need to look at the bigger picture of the strategic edge achieved by India and to deny it the space to launch a limited war under the nuclear overhang. Its Pakistan's strategic forces that is and will decide its delivery....I hope its clear now!

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## farhan_9909

sancho said:


> Somebody is either confused, or is playing games here.



and i have said this over 4-5 times in MMRCA thread
to collect more thanks 

hahaha


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## rcrmj

wanglaokan said:


> China had successfully put WS10A in use, *which is a reinforced prototype of AL-31*.Why we still buy hundreds of AL-31 is that our production line of WS10A is overloaded,we need to bring in usable engine to pack up PLAAF into fight force ASAP in case of regional conflict, what Chinese goverment has the most is US dollar that's what Russian loved. As long as the window period is over, no single AL-31will be purchased by CHINA, i promise you my friend.Every chinese pilot interviewed credit J10 for it's super manueaverability.As we all know main chinese look implicit when they express themself, or the national security won't let any pilot say in the public how good feel is driving a J-10 with WS10A. It is still a sensitive topic in china even now.



wS-10 has nothing to do with AL-31, WS-10 is more related to american and british engines than russians

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## SQ8

abdulbarijan said:


> Well well
> The last time I remember asking about FC-20 to a reliable source was back in 2010 and all i got then from him was
> "mamla thanda hai"
> Lets take a look at what happened
> 
> 
> -Rumors from CDF of PAF getting a J-10A with customized avionics
> 
> -Dubai 2011 a PAF officer said that "Our modernization plan includes the induction of a J-10 class platform" when the reporter asked the variant he said "ours will be based on the B model"
> 
> -When i posted this our very own brother Santro reported that instead of the the earlier plan of inducting the J-10A's PAF has now adopted a more "comprehensive plan"
> 
> -By the time where MMRCA winner was about to be announced Santro reported about the numbers of JF-17's being cut to 150 from the original 250.
> 
> 
> *So we can assume that "the comprehensive plan" included reducing the number of JF-17's to increase the number of FC-20's..
> *
> 
> And the confirmation of that was given before ... by Sir Pshamim who said that the initial numbers were increased from 36 to 58.



The plan to reduce the fleet was taken in light of future scenario's and current economic conditions.
It does not mean that the PAF may not change its mind next week that it wants to buy more JF-17's.
But the current economic conditions that plague the PAF have forced it to decide on a force of some 300 combat aircraft as certainty. With the FC-20 program coming in ONLY after finances are available... the Fc-20 is NOT on this years budget.. and it may not make next years either.
Right now.. by 2015.. the PAF is looking at a Fleet of some 90 ish F-16's, A 130ish JF-17's(more to be added in 2016), and some 30-40 F-7PG's... it may retain its ROSE strike fleet in reserve.

Like Najam says.. who knows. 
Maybe somehow those as of yet unknown and untouched swiss accounts may yield some billion that may allow us budget the FC-20 quicker into budget.
Finance is the ONLY variable that stands between the PAF and its ideal goals.


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## VCheng

Oscar said:


> ................
> Finance is the ONLY variable that stands between the PAF and its ideal goals.



That is the same the world over!

Getting the economic base stronger makes all the difference for defense plans, no matter what arm.


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## 帅的一匹

rcrmj said:


> wS-10 has nothing to do with AL-31, WS-10 is more related to american and british engines than russians


Even WS10B is designed in the reference of core engine of AL31F and do lots of improvement with China Wisdom, why you don't willing to recognize it? You got any insider information to prove i am trollong?


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## Nefory

wanglaokan said:


> Even WS10B is designed in the reference of core engine of AL31F and do lots of improvement with China Wisdom, why you don't willing to recognize it? You got any insider information to prove i am trollong?


 
Genius, what is a WS10B? If you are talking about WS10A, then one would tell you that the core engine of WS10A comes from F101 (or CFM56).

Differences in parameters:
AL-31F 
Compression 4 fans+9 compr. stages 
Bypass ratio 0.59:1 
Turbine 2-single stage(hi+Lo) 

WS-10A/F100-GE
Compression 3 fans + 9 compr. stages
Bypass ratio 0.78:1 (For WS-10A)
Turbine 3-stages (2 lo+ 1hi)

And no one was actually accusing you for trolling. We simply expect that you should learn something about the topic before you start talking about it.

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## rcrmj

wanglaokan said:


> Even WS10B is designed in the reference of core engine of AL31F and do lots of improvement with China Wisdom, why you don't willing to recognize it? You got any insider information to prove i am trollong?


just google it mate


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## 帅的一匹

rcrmj said:


> just google it mate


 
What type of engine packed on J10b, any detail specification?when will Fc20 delivered to Paf to deal with Indian MMRCA,any info?

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## Nefory

wanglaokan said:


> What type of engine packed on J10b, any detail specification?when will Fc20 delivered to Paf to deal with Indian MMRCA,any info?


 
Depends on PAF's requirement. If PAF wanted J10B to be delivered in say this year. Then J10B or not, the first batch of FC20 could only be installed with AL31. If PAF is more patient, then perhaps J10B with more powerful and reliable WS10A will join PAF. However in either cases, WS10A or its further variants are not copies of AL31

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## farhan_9909

j-10B at present has ws-10B engine with 136KN thrust

The one to be delivered will be the best one and might get the ws-10G 155kn engine


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## 帅的一匹

Fc20 with ws10b is really cool...

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## Nefory

farhan_9909 said:


> j-10B at present has ws-10B engine with 136KN thrust
> 
> The one to be delivered will be the best one and might get the ws-10G 155kn engine




Brother, that might be a bit too optimistic. 136kn of thrust (if this is the reality today) with reliable performance is more than what you can ask from a WS10 in the coming 2 years. WS10 might reach 144kn after 2015, but now we have to look into a more feasible option because there is already a unbalance in the sky. If today the Chinese is able to provide J10Bs (even J10As) with reliable trust-worthy engines, I would say that's more than enough.

P.S. What is a WS10B? Are you guys referring WS10 which used on J10? I don't recall any significant improvements were done on the so called WS10B comparing to the WS10A on J11B. In fact, I would say they are almost the same except the position of the gear box.

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## 帅的一匹

I think it is more likely to install WS10A on FC-20. WS-10A is falling behind it's deadline so we use Af-31FN for J-10A. But now Ws-10A is ready for J10b, and it's reliable performance appreciated by PLAAF officer.

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## farhan_9909

Ws-10B is a improved variant of Ws-10 engine series

with possible TVC

ws-10G is a variant with 155Kn thrust and Stealthy nozzel


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## 帅的一匹

Nefory said:


> Brother, that might be a bit too optimistic. 136kn of thrust (if this is the reality today) with reliable performance is more than what you can ask from a WS10 in the coming 2 years. WS10 might reach 144kn after 2015, but now we have to look into a more feasible option because there is already a unbalance in the sky. If today the Chinese is able to provide J10Bs (even J10As) with reliable trust-worthy engines, I would say that's more than enough.
> 
> P.S. What is a WS10B? Are you guys referring WS10 which used on J10? I don't recall any significant improvements were done on the so called WS10B comparing to the WS10A on J11B. In fact, I would say they are almost the same except the position of the gear box.


 WS10b is said to be the super engine trial for stealthy J 20.

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## Nefory

wanglaokan said:


> I think it is more likely to install WS10A on FC-20. WS-10A is falling behind it's deadline so we use Af-31FN for J-10A. But now Ws-10A is ready for J10b, and it's reliable performance appreciated by PLAAF officer.



Appreciated or not, I don't think anyone can confirm that. However, this is what we can confirm: the first test flight of a WS10A installed J10B happened in August 31st last year. From then till now, only 5 months have passed. I think this type of test require at least one year or so of continuous test flight, don't you think? After the whole series test is done and the bird is finally ready for entering service, still it will take at least one year for manufacturing. 
So the conclusion is clear, J10B with WS10A or its later variants won't happened before 2014, or 2013 if being optimistic. And if FC20 is to join PAF this year, it won't come with WS10A.

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## Nefory

wanglaokan said:


> WS10b is said to be the super engine trial for stealthy J 20.


 
Don't buy this bs from ignorant press. There is no evidence that proves that the WS10B exists.

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## Nefory

farhan_9909 said:


> Ws-10B is a improved variant of Ws-10 engine series
> 
> with possible TVC
> 
> ws-10G is a variant with 155Kn thrust and Stealthy nozzel



Hmm...I have no knowledge about them. They might come to existence in near future, but I don't see them necessary. J10B with advanced avionics + reliable engines which can provide 137kn of thrust are sufficient. No doubt that it's better to have more thrust and even thrust vectoring capability, but the fact is that it costs more time and money and it is not a must have. The Indian love to have all kinds of fancy capabilities on their jets and are able to get it as long as they pay. Well that's not the case for the Chinese and the Pakistani, right? Time is never on our side and money don't always solve problems for us. So we have to be more practical. 

A fleet with 150~200 JF17s (n blocks), 50 J10Bs, and 18 F16CD + several AEW or AWACS integrated into highly efficient command system (effective air warning and control system, high speed data link and so forth) are enough to scare off any intrusion from the air. After all, we are not trying to bomb the sh*t out of someone else, right?

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## The enlightened

> J10B with advanced avionics


Btw what are these advanced avionics that you guys keep talking about?


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## 帅的一匹

Nefory said:


> Appreciated or not, I don't think anyone can confirm that. However, this is what we can confirm: the first test flight of a WS10A installed J10B happened in August 31st last year. From then till now, only 5 months have passed. I think this type of test require at least one year or so of continuous test flight, don't you think? After the whole series test is done and the bird is finally ready for entering service, still it will take at least one year for manufacturing.
> So the conclusion is clear, J10B with WS10A or its later variants won't happened before 2014, or 2013 if being optimistic. And if FC20 is to join PAF this year, it won't come with WS10A.


If PLAAF induct J-10B in great number, it will take more time to deliver Fc20 with WS10a. WS10b is still too far away from realistic before 2015.

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## Nefory

The enlightened said:


> Btw what are these advanced avionics that you guys keep talking about?



To be honest, I have no clue. Anything that can provide more information of the target and shorter response time will serve the purpose. Perhaps AESA + better battle field awareness, if possible EODAS or something similar+ mission computer with high processing capability + more effective EW system and so forth.

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## 帅的一匹

The enlightened said:


> Btw what are these advanced avionics that you guys keep talking about?


AESA radar+IRST+built-in avionics pod+ new fire control system

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## sancho

farhan_9909 said:


> and i have said this over 4-5 times in MMRCA thread
> to collect more thanks
> 
> hahaha



Yeah I thought so, if you need that. 




Nefory said:


> To be honest, I have no clue. Anything that can provide more information of the target and shorter response time will serve the purpose. Perhaps AESA + better battle field awareness, if possible EODAS or something similar+ mission computer with high processing capability + more effective EW system and so forth.



Hi Nefory, you sounds very reasonable and since I couldn't get infos in the Chinese sections, can you provide some sources with reliable specs of J10B?

Much of it is just speculation so far, be it the engine thrust, be it emptyweight, materials, not to mention performance figures for avionics.


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## Jon Snow

I am really curious to see this fighter and its specs once fully revealed - it seems to be very potent indeed if some members are to be believed, but some of the claims do sound exaggerated.

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## nomi007

well still paf give no comments on rafael selection
Pakistan need to speed up the j-10b acquisition to counter radael
2nd tell the Chinese response on mmrca selection
last we lost 1 biggest arm supplier France


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## farhan_9909

nomi007 said:


> well still paf give no comments on rafael selection
> Pakistan need to speed up the j-10b acquisition to counter radael
> 2nd tell the Chinese response on mmrca selection
> last we lost 1 biggest arm supplier France



No sir
France arms market was as good as dead for pak

they refused JF-17 avionics(modified spectra)
its better they have nt opted for EFT otherwise they could have blocked us 3 countries arms market.
we have even stopped buying Al khalid main gun from them

we buy small arms from germany,electronics and UAV from italy,IRIS-t from germany

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## 帅的一匹

I saw the flight video of J10b, the tail flam color of WS10A is red, but the tail flam of J20 engine looks exactly blue. That prove WS10b exist for sure.

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## Nefory

wanglaokan said:


> I saw the flight video of J10b, the tail flam color of WS10A is red, but the tail flam of J20 engine looks exactly blue. That prove WS10b exist for sure.


 
The colour of flame tells nothing.
The flame comes from your gas stove might very well be blue as well, it doesn't mean your gas stove is equal to a AL31. Yeah, the flame comes from the AB of an AL31 is blue. And in case you wanna know, the engines on J20 are AL31, not some mysterious WS10B.That I can bet on.

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## Nefory

sancho said:


> Hi Nefory, you sounds very reasonable and since I couldn't get infos in the Chinese sections, can you provide some sources with reliable specs of J10B?
> 
> Much of it is just speculation so far, be it the engine thrust, be it emptyweight, materials, not to mention performance figures for avionics.


 
I am as curious about the bird as you, but unfortunately I don't have any reliable source that can provided me solid information about this machine.

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## Nishan_101

Honestly speaking my wish was that PAF have ordered the J-10/J-10S in 2004 instead of F-16 Block-52s and even didn't went for older F-16s Block-15s as there airframes have been pushed to their limits and we have received the money for the 28 planes in terms of soya bean oil/palm oil in 90s. So we only need to upgrade 31 F-16s like 10 in U.S and 21 in Turkey. 50-70 J-10/J-10S would make a serious difference and would be helpful in replacing some older mirages as well and now we can order some more 50-70 J-10B/J-10BS other the planed 300+ JF-17s.
I really wanted to know the cost of J-10/J-10S in 2004?


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## khanasifm

Dubai 2011 news, page 52 & 14

Dubai ShowNews | Day 1 | Express 3 | Zinio Digital Magazines

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## khanasifm

j-10b for paf

Dubai ShowNews | Day 2 | Express 3 | Zinio Digital Magazines


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## khanasifm

khanasifm said:


> j-10b variant for r paf page 8.
> 
> Dubai ShowNews | Day 2 | Express 3 | Zinio Digital Magazines


 
page 8 new on j-10b for paf


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## nomi007

khanasifm said:


> page 8 new on j-10b for paf


we need now join turkish 5th generation jet fighter program
as a alternative

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## Icewolf

nomi007 said:


> we need now join turkish 5th generation jet fighter program
> as a alternative


 
remember we dont have awesome relationship with turkey (but leaning to the good side)


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## sancho

nomi007 said:


> we need now join turkish 5th generation jet fighter program
> as a alternative



Turkey has not own 5th gen program, they are buying F35 and might join S. Korea and at the end, the problem would be the same as joining China on a 5th gen program, the necessary budget for the development and to maintain such fighters. Don't underestimate the costs that operating stealth fighters will mean, many Indians do the same mistake by dreaming about a whole fleet of stealth fighters, but that's not going to happen. Even the US forces realised that now and we might see several cuts in the F35 procurement, because it simply will be too costly.
Just to compare it, USN stated that the single engine F35C will be 1.5 times costlier to operate than the twin engine F18 Hornets, it will replace!

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## 帅的一匹

The cost of J20 is around 70millions dollar per, too expensive for china itself as well. We are not expected the number in service will surpass 200.

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## Pak47

What is the Turkish TFX then?

TFX (Turkey) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


sancho said:


> Turkey has not own 5th gen program, they are buying F35 and might join S. Korea and at the end, the problem would be the same as joining China on a 5th gen program, the necessary budget for the development and to maintain such fighters. Don't underestimate the costs that operating stealth fighters will mean, many Indians do the same mistake by dreaming about a whole fleet of stealth fighters, but that's not going to happen. Even the US forces realised that now and we might see several cuts in the F35 procurement, because it simply will be too costly.
> Just to compare it, USN stated that the single engine F35C will be 1.5 times costlier to operate than the twin engine F18 Hornets, it will replace!


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## Nishan_101

Honestly speaking my wish was that PAF have ordered the J-10/J-10S in 2004 instead of F-16 Block-52s and even didn't went for older F-16s Block-15s as there airframes have been pushed to their limits and we have received the money for the 28 planes in terms of soya bean oil/palm oil in 90s. So we only need to upgrade 31 F-16s like 10 in U.S and 21 in Turkey. 50-70 J-10/J-10S would make a serious difference and would be helpful in replacing some older mirages as well and now we can order some more 50-70 J-10B/J-10BS other the planed 300+ JF-17s.
I really wanted to know the cost of J-10/J-10S in 2004?


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## MastanKhan

Nishan_101 said:


> Honestly speaking my wish was that PAF have ordered the J-10/J-10S in 2004 instead of F-16 Block-52s and even didn't went for older F-16s Block-15s as there airframes have been pushed to their limits and we have received the money for the 28 planes in terms of soya bean oil/palm oil in 90s. So we only need to upgrade 31 F-16s like 10 in U.S and 21 in Turkey. 50-70 J-10/J-10S would make a serious difference and would be helpful in replacing some older mirages as well and now we can order some more 50-70 J-10B/J-10BS other the planed 300+ JF-17s.
> I really wanted to know the cost of J-10/J-10S in 2004?



Sir,

Honestly speaking---your wish was wrong---blk 52 F16 in the current package is an extremely superior air craft in every sense---as well as all the mlu'd F16's----. Thank goodness that the air force did make the right decision at that time.

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## ziaulislam

j-10 were not upto the mark in 2004..and f-16s were far superior..
however PAF was certain that in a few years it would be there fore it waited for j-10b


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## nomi007

Icewolf said:


> remember we dont have awesome relationship with turkey (but leaning to the good side)


i think we have
read Pakistan-turkey relations
Pakistan


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## sancho

Pak47 said:


> What is the Turkish TFX then?
> 
> TFX (Turkey) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



A rumor placed on wiki:



> According to a Defense Ministry source that remained anonymous,



Wiki is only as reliable as the given references are.


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## miroofi75

Pakistan receive 3 f16, 1 new Block-D/52, 2 upgraded


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## air marshal

*February 2012*

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## SBD-3

Pak47 said:


> What is the Turkish TFX then?
> 
> TFX (Turkey) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Turkey has very recently (a week or two ago) signed up for a couple of F-35As as initial order.


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## Nishan_101

But still I am up to that PAF was more interested in J-10/J-10S instead of the new Block-52s and getting 50 of them like 30 J-10S(multirole strike platform) and 20 J-10 will be a much better idea in 2005 then going with the F-16s as IAF and INAF has gained C-130Js and P-8Is that have ECm builtin that can suppress or jam our F-16 radars and many other surprises that are still unknown to us. So buying the J-10s was better to replace some Mirages and later another 50 J-10Bs for replacing Mirages again, although JF-17 is good but their combination is better. Note: I am not saying that all the Mirages should be replaced, just saying because the Mirages are old and they must be replace in the first place.


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## IHK_PK

nomi007 said:


> we need now join Turkish 5th generation jet fighter program
> as a alternative


Is it that simple.... why we live in fools paradise all the time.... would u like any country to join in ur so called advanced UAV progarmme now if he is not able to put in some efforts and any advanced know-how?


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## IHK_PK

Or u think that PAKISTAN is ahead in aircraft making then Turkey. pls don't mention JF-17 program here.


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## IHK_PK

wanglaokan said:


> The cost of J20 is around 70millions dollar per, too expensive for china itself as well. We are not expected the number in service will surpass 200.



That is really expensive. but may be that's why PAF is going for less in numbers. can u provide any source for the price?


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## untitled

IHK_PK said:


> Or u think that PAKISTAN is ahead in aircraft making then Turkey. pls don't mention JF-17 program here.



Turkey has been assembling/upgrading the F-16 since 1984


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## Pak47

hasnain0099 said:


> Turkey has very recently (a week or two ago) signed up for a couple of F-35As as initial order.



Okay?

We have ordered F-16's after and before we have made our own Jf-17 too.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Ping said:


> Whoever made the above pic must not like the looks of JF-17 very much. It is missing from the center spotlight. The pic suggests Mirage-3, J-10 and F-16s are the ones on which the PAF is counting on. JF-17 is not the hero, only a sidekick to the Mirage-3.



This pic was made in 2008-9, when we had not enough GOOD pictures of JF-17 on net. 
Nothing to fulfil your desire. Go take care of your hero and take necessary steps to bring that project to success.

---------- Post added at 02:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 PM ----------




nomi007 said:


> http://hassaanrabbani.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/pakistan-air-force-weapon-systems.jpg



Why bringing old stuff bhai ??


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## farhan_9909

Ping said:


> lol.. what a silly excuse. There were plenty of JF-17 pics right from 2003. Infact there were plenty of good pics even before 2003 from mockups.
> 
> And I'm not a LCA fan.



i see two pics of JFT in the picture


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## DANGER-ZONE

Ping said:


> lol.. what a silly excuse. There were plenty of JF-17 pics right from 2003. Infact there were plenty of good pics even before 2003 from mockups.
> 
> And I'm not a LCA fan.



Well for your information this PS was made by Waleed Irfan, forum name *Stealth* http://www.defence.pk/forums/members/15664stealth.html.
its not an Official picture anyway. If u didn't like my excuse go ask him your self. 
It is useless to reply you guys.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Double post .. deleted


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## Nishan_101

If I am not wrong then about 50 J-10s are coming to PAF till 2015


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## nomi007

danger-zone said:


> This pic was made in 2008-9, when we had not enough GOOD pictures of JF-17 on net.
> Nothing to fulfil your desire. Go take care of your hero and take necessary steps to bring that project to success.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Why bringing old stuff bhai ??


sorry sir i saq this pic 1st time


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## nomi007




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## S10

Don't think I've mentioned this before, but apparently J-10B is not the final variant in the J-10 series. There will be another upgrade coming in the next few years according to huzhigeng about 6 months ago. I think they might actually graft sensors/ECM suites/avionics from J-20 on to the new variant.

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## mylovepakistan

whats the RCS of j10b?


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## KRAIT

mylovepakistan said:


> whats the RCS of j10b?


Even exact configuration is not known, RCS is far off....chinese are way too secretive about such stuffs.

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## mylovepakistan

seems like RCS would be very low..


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## nomi007

j-10b rcs is better than j-10a
rcs of pak-fa is also very low


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## S-A-B-E-R->

so here is some news you might find intresting.
i talked to a family member in PAF and he told me somthing very bizzar about FC 20 project. he said there r 2 mock cockpits that were made by PAF for FC20 and the major difference in both of them was the controll stick. in one the usual layout of j 10 was kept with some modification but second one was somwhat copy of f16 with controll stick on the riteside he said som technical thing about the full fly by wire being the reason this can be done in FC 20 also he told me china wants pakistan to be the first costumer of j 10 derivatives for marketing reasons and also he said some complicated mumbo jumbo about the new EW and ECCM system being developed by PAF that will also be placed in the UCAV they r building
so some stuff to think about.

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## alimobin memon

I Heard From Paf Official that JF17 can Fight all the Fighters except 5th gen he quoted that su30 and rafale are also in the list of those whom jf17 can fight i-e difference is like F16 block 40 vs Block 50


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## SQ8

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> china wants pakistan to be the first costumer of j 10 derivatives for marketing reasons



But on a loan.. which the PAF does not want.


----------



## moving_ahead

J10B&#39;s ws10B turbofan(TaihangShan ) - YouTube

this is ws10b engine which really exist check the proof

---------- Post added at 01:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 PM ----------

dont ask againt if this ws10b exist or not


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## moving_ahead

chck the video


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## S-A-B-E-R->

alimobin memon said:


> I Heard From Paf Official that JF17 can Fight all the Fighters except 5th gen he quoted that su30 and rafale are also in the list of those whom jf17 can fight i-e difference is like F16 block 40 vs Block 50


JF 17 is a fighter jet yes it can fight any jet in the world but the thing is the technology gap that may caus the jf to be on the lower side of luck . if we pitt this fighter against any other 4th gen in the batch 2 form we ll find a jet that can survive and fight very well the AESA may be a problem in 4+ opponents because of Jamming but even than jf ia a cheap and compitent fighter.


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## SBD-3

Huitong on J-10B radar


> "The J-10B radar bid had two contenders. 607 Institute presented PESA while 14th Institute presented AESA. It was rumored that 14th Institute won the bid with their AESA design. That picture simply shows the losing PESA design by 607 Institute at some internal exhibition. Similarly, that AESA design shown in the other photo by 607 Institute for J-11B was also on display at the same place. However there has been no confirmation that J-11B has an AESA radar. It is likely that J-11B still features a tranditional PD radar since it entered production a few years earlier than J-10B. It is also possible that J-15 will have an AESA radar, or J-11B will be upgraded later with an AESA radar."

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## Nishan_101

When will the 50 J-10Bs are coming to PAF?


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## aimarraul



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## PakShaheen79

^ Is this new prototype. #6?? or an earlier one?


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## DANGER-ZONE

PakShaheen79 said:


> ^ Is this new prototype. #6?? or an earlier one?



i guess this is one of the serial production as it is powered with AL-31F.


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## SBD-3

Update on FC-20 by Pervaiz Shamim Sahib


> Latest news about FC-20 is that technical negotiation were completed abd business negotiations have begun. PAF has made a commitment towards the FC-20 and now the business negotiation needs to complete enabling PAF to buy them.


]PAF Related Discussion: Jan ~ Dec 2012


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## ChineseTiger1986

moving_ahead said:


> J10B's ws10B turbofan(TaihangShan ) - YouTube
> 
> this is ws10b engine which really exist check the proof
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 PM ----------
> 
> dont ask againt if this ws10b exist or not



The green one is WS-10B, and the red one is AL-31FN.

Here is the new video of J-10B running with WS-10B. 

ã&#8364;56å&#376;&#381;äº&#8249;æ&#8249;å®¢-æ&#710;é&#402;½ã&#8364;&#8216;æ*¼10Bæ&#8211;°å¹´é¦&#8211;ç§&#8364;ç¿¼å&#352;¨é&#8225;&#8216;è&#352;å¼&#8364; å&#8250;½äº§å&#8216;å&#352;¨æ&#339;ºV5 -å&#381;&#376;å&#710;&#8250;è§&#8224;é¢&#8216; å&#339;¨çº¿è§&#8218;ç&#339;&#8249; è§&#8224;é¢&#8216;ä¸&#8249;è½½-56ç½&#8216;è§&#8224;é¢&#8216;


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## Nishan_101

Although if the engine is not ready then we might easily get the Russian 117S on F-10Bs.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Nishan_101 said:


> Although if the engine is not ready then we might easily get the Russian 117S on F-10Bs.



I don't worry it will be there with J-10B, and Russians won't sell their precious 117S to us, meanwhile we don't really need it.


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## Slayer786

Nishan_101 said:


> When will the 50 J-10Bs are coming to PAF?



From mid next year, the first batch will start arriving.


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## nitetrogen70

hmm when did we order 50?, i thought the number was always 36?


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## ziaulislam

Slayer786 said:


> From mid next year, the first batch will start arriving.


i have been hearing such rumours for long time..so no i think the best answer will be..we dont know.

as recently a very reliable source came out to be wrong which was predicting j-10 inclusion in december 2011


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## Tehmasib

this msg for pakies friends only

sir FC-20 k bary mne koee achi khabar day dyn coz ab tu lagta hy humary bachy hi in fighters ko daykheen gay,,,,,,,i am reading about these birds far last seven to ten years but yeh tooo alf layla ki khani hy jo khatam hi ni hotiiiii


----------



## dexter

Tehmasib said:


> this msg for pakies friends only
> 
> sir FC-20 k bary mne koee achi khabar day dyn coz ab tu lagta hy humary bachy hi in fighters ko daykheen gay,,,,,,,i am reading about these birds far last seven to ten years but yeh tooo alf layla ki khani hy jo khatam hi ni hotiiiii



Bhai seedhi baat yeh he ke Pakistan k pas in Fighters ko kharidne k paisa nahi hen !


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## Gessler

mylovepakistan said:


> seems like RCS would be very low..



not exactly. the RCS of this plane would be based on what the composites are in this airframe, IR signature etc.
it's got canards...canards are stealth-compromising and there's no provision of weapon bays in this airframe as well,
external weapons increase RCS (coupled with canards) so i guess it could have an RCS no less than 4m2.

but RAM coatings can be of some help here, till now i've seen no J-10 with full RAM coatings, china didn't advanced
much in this area, but might be there in future versions like J-10B.

just my two cents, i'd like someone to enlighten me if i'm wrong somewhere


----------



## Jungibaaz

gessler said:


> not exactly.


IMHO the RCS will be low, similar to the F-18E's RCS.



> the RCS of this plane would be based on what the composites are in this airframe, IR signature etc.


composites only do so much, yes an all metal airframe is no good but use composites isn't enough.



> it's got canards...canards are stealth-compromising and there's no provision of weapon bays in this airframe as well,
> external weapons increase RCS (coupled with canards) so i guess it could have an RCS no less than 4m2.



Yes canards aren't great for RCS, but we can expect them to have composites and extensive RAM coating.
Weapons bays? Okay lets not go there.. we all know that whether it's J-10B, EFT, Rafale or F-18E, putting weapons and tanks on will increase to RCS massively. But I guess it would buy you valuable room before detection.



> but RAM coatings can be of some help here, till now i've seen no J-10 with full RAM coatings, china didn't advanced
> much in this area, but might be there in future versions like J-10B.
> 
> just my two cents, i'd like someone to enlighten me if i'm wrong somewhere



You seem to know a lot about Chinese advancement in this field, can you please enlighten us.


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## killerx

When j10b full production is to start

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## SQ8

gessler said:


> not exactly. the RCS of this *plane would be based on what the composites are in this airframe*, IR signature etc.
> it's got canards...canards are stealth-compromising and there's no provision of weapon bays in this airframe as well,
> external weapons increase RCS (coupled with canards) so i guess it could have an RCS no less than 4m2.
> 
> but RAM coatings can be of some help here, till now i've seen no J-10 with full RAM coatings, china didn't advanced
> much in this area, but might be there in future versions like J-10B.
> 
> just my two cents, i'd like someone to enlighten me if i'm wrong somewhere



Composites have nothing to do with RCS.

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## BATMAN

Oscar said:


> Composites have nothing to do with RCS.



i'm trying to convince endians from years.

Composites add quality, finish, reduce joints and in circumstances can reduce weight and increase production rate (if used extensively)

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## SQ8

BATMAN said:


> i'm trying to convince endians from years.
> 
> Composites add quality, finish, reduce joints and in circumstances can reduce weight and increase production rate (if used extensively)



If its their aircraft... composites enable visual stealth.. active cancellation.. and have anti-gravity properties.
If its a Pakistani or Chinese aircraft.. composites are expensive.. fragile.. and add nothing to the airframe.
PDF's laws of relative perception number 3345.

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## Tempest II

Oscar said:


> Composites have nothing to do with RCS.



Looks like they do - I had to look into this for my own education but I will share so we are all enlightened:

Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Structure 


> Eurofighter benefits from advances over the past twenty years in the fields of metallurgy, polymer science and composites. Over 80% of the airframe is comprised of modern materials. This brings advantages not only in terms of the strength to weight ratio but also has implications for stealth.



https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/mragheb/w...Systems/Radar Signatures of Wind Turbines.pdf






http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public/PubFullText/RTO/MP/RTO-MP-069(II)/MP-069(II)-(SM1)-11.pdf





and *US military innovation since the Cold War: creation without destruction*
By Harvey M. Sapolsky, Benjamin H. Friedman, Brendan Rittenhouse Green


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## abdulbarijan

As far as how much composites effect the RCS of a fighter the answer is a little bit but not too much.

*The fact that stealth aircrafts are made from composites has already taken a deep hold in aviation folklore. After all , Such, At least is the popular theory. What may prove surprising is that the use of composites is not one of the most significant RCS reduction measures.*


*
The role played by composites in reducing RCS is a more subtle one*

Source : (Stealth war planes by Doug Richardson)
Doug Richardson trained as an electronic engineer in the aerospace industry. He has been the defense editor of the aviation journal Flight international, Editor of German journal Military technology , Editor of defense material and technical editor of Armanda international. Currently he is the editor of Jane's Missiles & Rockets .

Stealth Warplanes - Doug Richardson - Google Books


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## Free Soul

This is taking us off topic but thought a bit clarification could be in order (objective better educating myself).

In my opinion better composite material would reduce the Radar signature of J-10 but would not reduce its RCS.

As RCS =Radar Cross-section, it deals with the shape and dimensions of a surface and the angles regardless of what the surface is made up of. 

Radar signature is a totally different thing. Based on dimensions, angles between adjoining surfaces + the material of the surface determine the resulting radar signature of an object.

For example, if you have a spherical object, no matter what that sphere is made up of, the dimensions as in radius and diameter of that sphere would remain the same, as these are mere measurements. You take a measuring tape/scale and measure it, the results would be the same regardless of the sphere being made of wood or glass.

Now if you put same shaped spherical objects (same measurements) under a beam of light, one made of wood and the other of glass, the glass sphere would reflect more light than one made of wood.

Similar principle works when, radar beams strike an object and are reflected back. If the object is made up of more radar reflective material the higher signature you get back. 
Now if an object with bad dimensions (angles between adjoining surfaces prone to more radar beams reflecting back to radar) and bigger size is made up of a more reflective material, then the Radar Signature would be even bigger than one made of less reflective surface.



> Eurofighter benefits from advances over the past twenty years in the fields of metallurgy, polymer science and composites. Over 80% of the airframe is comprised of modern materials. This brings advantages not only in terms of the strength to weight ratio but also has implications for stealth.


What this translates into is *Based on dimensions, angles between adjoining surfaces + the material of the surface determine the resulting radar signature of an object.*
The Idea here is to reduce Radar signature, be it with reduction in RCS or less radar reflective materials or combination of both.

Don&#8217;t know if the following statements have been paraphrased by the posters above, or put as they appear in the original script.



abdulbarijan said:


> &#8220;The fact that stealth aircrafts are made from composites has already taken a deep hold in aviation folklore. After all , Such, At least is the popular theory. What may prove surprising is that the use of composites is not one of the most significant RCS reduction measures.&#8221;
> 
> 
> &#8220;The role played by composites in reducing RCS is a more subtle one&#8221;


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## SQ8

Tempest II said:


> Looks like they do



Yes they do..
but saying composites alone does not.
Whether the composites are shaped to diffract em waves? etc
the word composite by its own covers a while range of materials that may have nothing to do with RCS.
for eg.. Many if not all of Rutan's designs use composites that have more to do with weight saving than RCS.


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## Manticore




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## TOPGUN

Inshallah once we get the fc-20's where do you guys think they will be stationed? close to indian border perhaps as it will be a front line fighter ?


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## MastanKhan

TOPGUN said:


> Inshallah once we get the fc-20's where do you guys think they will be stationed? close to indian border perhaps as it will be a front line fighter ?



Hi,

Front line fighters close to the border are dead meat---that is why when the iaf based their su30 sqdrn's in jammu kasmir---it was a matter of some relief---.


----------



## Edevelop

TOPGUN said:


> Inshallah once we get the fc-20's where do you guys think they will be stationed? close to indian border perhaps as it will be a front line fighter ?



I think PAF Base Mianwali is an excellent place. (Not too close and not too far!)






Right now this place does not station any good aircrafts

Here is the list:
K-8P
F-7P, FT-7P
F-7P, FT-7P
Alouette III


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## Paan Singh

^^

so wont you master this plane before parking this close to border?


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## TOPGUN

cb4 said:


> I think PAF Base Mianwali is an excellent place. (Not too close and not too far!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right now this place does not station any good aircrafts
> 
> Here is the list:
> K-8P
> F-7P, FT-7P
> F-7P, FT-7P
> Alouette III



Yea it will be interesting to see where they will be placed anyhow .. first we have to get them


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## gambit

Tempest II said:


> Looks like they do - I had to look into this for my own education but I will share so we are all enlightened:
> 
> Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Structure


When the word 'composite' is used in discussing RCS control measures, it is safe to assume that the 'composite' in question have been specifically formulated for RCS control measures.

The F-22 has far less 'composite' than popularly believed...

F-22 Materials and Processes


> The *overall percentage of composites in the F-22 (approximately 25%)* is historically high, though not unprecedented. *However, the extensive application of Resin Transfer Molding (RTM) technology and high temperature bismaleimide (BMI)* composite materials directly *resulted in the high weight/performance efficiency* the Raptor demonstrates.



Technically speaking, concrete and plywood are composites (gross), stainless steel is a composite (molecular), and water is a composite (atomic). Most of the things in this world, if not the universe, are composites.

My advice is that while it is not technically wrong to casually use the word 'composite' in these discussions, one should take caution and point out the proper context of 'composite' when appropriate. If the subject under discussion is about weight saving measures, then point out that context, if the subject is about RCS controls, then point out the composite is ferrite particles embedded and is applied on the outer surfaces of the body.

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## SBD-3

Prism said:


> ^^
> 
> so wont you master this plane before parking this close to border?


the point being?..........


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## Gessler

Oscar said:


> Composites have nothing to do with RCS.



that's not true. RCS isn't judged by just composites, that's a fact, but composites having nothing to
do with RCS is not correct.

the amount of composite material used in the airframe does have a lot to with RCS.
an airframe that has extensive composites will have a lesser RCS than that which has an all-metal airframe
or which uses metals more than composites, because composites reflect lesser radar waves than a
metal airframe in its place, so use of these DOES have something to do with RCS, but a lot more matters anyway

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## nomi007

when will 1st j-10 will come
or we are just making khayali paloa

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## Paan Singh

nomi007 said:


> when will 1st j-10 will come
> or we are just making khayali paloa



the same question i was going to ask


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## SBD-3

nomi007 said:


> when will 1st j-10 will come
> or we are just making khayali paloa


J-10b is not inducted even in PLAAF yet, Interesting things is that suddenly all the hush and leaks on the internet have been stopped (Pevaiz Shamim recently said that authorities have been concerned on information leakages about military programs). The most recent according to him is that FC-20 technical negociations are complete and PAF has started commercial negociations.


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## Gessler

hasnain0099 said:


> J-10b is not inducted even in PLAAF yet, Interesting things is that suddenly all the hush and leaks on the internet have been stopped (Pevaiz Shamim recently said that authorities have been concerned on information leakages about military programs). The most recent according to him is that FC-20 technical negociations are complete and PAF has started commercial negociations.



1) First it should get inducted in PLAAF
2) Depending on given feedback by PLAAF pilots, plane might undergo a few small-scale changes (if required)
3) Pakistan should seal all technical and commercial negotiations with china
4) Construction of FC-20 prototype commence
5) Technical evaluation by PAF pilots and aircrew of FC-20
6) Final version FC-20 should test-fly
7) Then, delivery to pak
8) Induction and the operationalization (L-O-N-G word!!)

Hmmm...all this would run very well into 2015-2016, so relax pakistani friends...you aren't getting it anytime
soon


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## killerx

what relly gona come man J10A or J10B so confused and paf shoud increase to no to 60 atlest to counter MMRCA rafale fighter

---------- Post added at 05:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:24 PM ----------




gessler said:


> 1) First it should get inducted in PLAAF
> 2) Depending on given feedback by PLAAF pilots, plane might undergo a few small-scale changes (if required)
> 3) Pakistan should seal all technical and commercial negotiations with china
> 4) Construction of FC-20 prototype commence
> 5) Technical evaluation by PAF pilots and aircrew of FC-20
> 6) Final version FC-20 should test-fly
> 7) Then, delivery to pak
> 8) Induction and the operationalization (L-O-N-G word!!)
> 
> Hmmm...all this would run very well into 2015-2016, so relax pakistani friends...you aren't getting it anytime
> soon



bro pakstian is strating a median stealth fighter jet progam with china soon dont need J20s we will bult fighter jet better then f35


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## 帅的一匹

The RCS of J10b is still classified.


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## SBD-3

gessler said:


> 1) First it should get inducted in PLAAF
> 2) Depending on given feedback by PLAAF pilots, plane might undergo a few small-scale changes (if required)
> 3) Pakistan should seal all technical and commercial negotiations with china
> 4) Construction of FC-20 prototype commence
> 5) Technical evaluation by PAF pilots and aircrew of FC-20
> 6) Final version FC-20 should test-fly
> 7) Then, delivery to pak
> 8) Induction and the operationalization (L-O-N-G word!!)
> 
> Hmmm...all this would run very well into 2015-2016, so relax pakistani friends...you aren't getting it anytime
> soon


1-Plane is designed and testflown by CAC airfield for preliminary flight testing (design appraisal) and any changes and tweaks are made.
2-The plane is then sent to CFTE for Weapons integration and detailed flight tests (Dixing for weapons testing)
3-CAC keeps a parallel testing program with multiple prototypes. 
4- After certification, the platform enters production.

Now J-10B has been to both CAC and CFTE (Prototypes 1-4 being reported in CFTE and 05 in CAC some time ago). In fact, it was also discussed at Chinese fora that CAC would be starting the serial production later part of 2011/2012.
FC-20 will not be radically different in structure from J-10B but rather electronically.

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## Gessler

killerx said:


> what relly gona come man J10A or J10B so confused and paf shoud increase to no to 60 atlest to counter MMRCA rafale fighter
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:24 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> bro pakstian is strating a median stealth fighter jet progam with china soon dont need J20s we will bult fighter jet better then f35



can you prove it with a credible source on the net? yes, i've heard its called J-2X or JF-X or something,
but there's no credible source to believe a contract has actually been signed for co-development,

if you can prove it, your welcom to do so

plus, there's no way you can make it superior to f35, bcoz you'll need state-of-the-art
tech, avionics, materials and engines to do it, but that could run the cost
into more than $100 millions per plane, so how many can you procure?

it'll only look similar to f35 (single engine, two fins, DSI) but it cant be "BETTER"
than f35 no way


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## Bratva

wanglaokan said:


> The RCS of J10b is still classified.



Rumour has it, RCS of J-10B in clean configuration is 0.5 m^2

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## Gessler

mafiya said:


> Rumour has it, RCS of J-10B in clean configuration is 0.5 m^2



wars are not fought with a 'clean configuration' friend. the EF also has less than >0.8m2 RCS with clean config,
but it the externally carried weapons which increase RCS to 3-4m2


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## SBD-3

wanglaokan said:


> The RCS of J10b is still classified.


A picture rumored to be of frontal aspect was available on internet a while ago, I have it in my picture archive at home. Will post it soon.


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## Indian-Devil

Does RCS really matters for 4th generation fighters which carries all the armaments externally. If their clean configuration is 0.5 or 1.5 m2 it doesn't matter because when it will be loaded with fuel tanks, bombs and missiles on its pylons, RCS will reach to 4-5 m2 and it will be in same leauge of F-16, Mig29, Rafael, EFT etc. Because all of these aircrafts in fully loaded configuration will be detected on almost same range by radars.

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## siegecrossbow

Indian-Devil said:


> Does RCS really matters for 4th generation fighters which carries all the armaments externally. If their clean configuration is 0.5 or 1.5 m2 it doesn't matter because when it will be loaded with fuel tanks, bombs and missiles on its pylons, RCS will reach to 4-5 m2 and it will be in same leauge of F-16, Mig29, Rafael, EFT etc. Because all of these aircrafts in fully loaded configuration will be detected on almost same range by radars.



It might matter when you've fired your weapons and need to make a speedy get away? Don't quote me on this though.


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## The enlightened

siegecrossbow said:


> It might matter when you've fired your weapons and need to make a speedy get away? Don't quote me on this though.


What does RCS have anything to do with a speedy shoot and run.


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## SQ8

The enlightened said:


> What does RCS have anything to do with a speedy shoot and run.



If I see you coming even it high speed.. I still know you are coming...and might be able to take actions to stop you.
If I dont see you coming.. and you come in fast.. kill me.. and be gone without me even knowing what happened.


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## The enlightened

Oscar said:


> If I see you coming even it high speed.. I still know you are coming...and might be able to take actions to stop you.
> If I dont see you coming.. and you come in fast.. kill me.. and be gone without me even knowing what happened.


True.
But not the Que. I asked. Or maybe I wasn't clear enough. So here goes.


> It might matter when you've fired your weapons and need to make a speedy get away


Kindly justify how this statement is true.


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## SQ8

The enlightened said:


> True.
> But not the Que. I asked. Or maybe I wasn't clear enough. So here goes.
> 
> *Kindly justify how this statement is true*.



Not in the case of a 4th gen fighter.. 
Not in against a A2A target.

In a strike scenario however.. it may be possible to use NOE flight.. and use your low(er) RCS to get closer to a target and launch a stand off weapon beyond the detection circle of a radar and be able to RTB without being caught by enemy interceptors vectored in to get you.


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## timberwolf

J-10 A in PAF color scheme .

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## SBD-3

hasnain0099 said:


> A picture rumored to be of frontal aspect was available on internet a while ago, I have it in my picture archive at home. Will post it soon.


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## siegecrossbow

The enlightened said:


> What does RCS have anything to do with a speedy shoot and run.



Bro you misunderstood me. The point I tried to make was that after your plane has engaged the enemy and exhausted the missiles, it would have a "clean" RCS, as a matter of speaking. Perhaps it would be easier for your plane to exit the confrontation (if there are still bogies around) and refuel/rearm, if necessary, if you have a smaller RCS.


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## Gessler

siegecrossbow said:


> Bro you misunderstood me. The point I tried to make was that after your plane has engaged the enemy and exhausted the missiles, it would have a "clean" RCS, as a matter of speaking. Perhaps it would be easier for your plane to exit the confrontation (if there are still bogies around) and refuel/rearm, if necessary, if you have a smaller RCS.



you're right, but its the first shot that matters most, and for gaining upper hand hear, you
need to have

a) longer range radar
b) BVRAAMs
c) AWACS advantage (most importent)

the clean RCS you said about would help only when the plane wants to get away after finishing up ordnance.
in combat however, it would still be highly visible on radar as it would fight only WITH the weapons on.

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## MastanKhan

siegecrossbow said:


> Bro you misunderstood me. The point I tried to make was that after your plane has engaged the enemy and exhausted the missiles, it would have a "clean" RCS, as a matter of speaking. Perhaps it would be easier for your plane to exit the confrontation (if there are still bogies around) and refuel/rearm, if necessary, if you have a smaller RCS.



Hi,

Good evening----when you exit the play ground----your behind is towards the opponent that you were just facing---and with one or two large red hot exhausts ( according to the aircraft in question )---the RCS ain't playing any role persay---unless it is the F22---or other variations.

Now suppose you make a right angle departure---the profile view would be bigger than the frontal view---. As one of the members stated---the function of RCS is inversely proportional to the strength of the opponents radar---. Your electronic eye needs to have the vision first of all to see that far with distinction.

Post corrected

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## Gessler

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Good evening----when you exit the play ground----your behind is towards the opponent that you were just facing---and with *two large red hot exhausts*---the RCS ain't playing any role---.
> 
> Now suppose you make a right angle departure---the profile view would be bigger than the frontal view---. As one of the members stated---the function of RCS is inversely proportional to the strength of the opponents radar---. Your electronic eye needs to have the vision first of all to see that far with distinction.



bro, j-10 has got only one exhaust

but anyway the rest of your post does make great sense


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## Thorough Pro

gessler said:


> bro, j-10 has got only one exhaust
> 
> but anyway the rest of your post does make great sense



was that really that hard or are you being naive?


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## 帅的一匹

when will the first FC-20 delivered to PAF?


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## PakShaheen79

wanglaokan said:


> when will the first FC-20 delivered to PAF?



A $10 million worth question but no one can answer that with certainty  Speculation time line varies from as early as Dec. 2012 to 2015-16. But, there exists a even bigger mystery that What is FC-20? J-10, J-10A, J-10B or something yet to be revealed.

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## MastanKhan

gessler said:


> bro, j-10 has got only one exhaust
> 
> but anyway the rest of your post does make great sense



Hi,

Thanks for pointing the error----.

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## CallsignAlzaeem



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## Sanchez

FC-20 is a hybird of J-10 DSI and J-10A. Radar, engine, avionics, RCS... are subject to PAF's choices of available options. It all depends on PAF's final requirements on the specifications of performance to match up to those of MKI and Rafale.

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## moving_ahead

Sanchez said:


> FC-20 is a hybird of J-10 DSI and J-10A. Radar, engine, avionics, RCS... are subject to PAF's choices of available options. It all depends on PAF's final requirements on the specifications of performance to match up to those of MKI and Rafale.


 
we are eager to see latest j10 FC20 in pakistan airforce Oh God plz make it faster for us


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## Edevelop

Sanchez said:


> FC-20 is a hybird of J-10 DSI and J-10A. Radar, engine, avionics, RCS... are subject to PAF's choices of available options. It all depends on PAF's final requirements on the specifications of performance to match up to those of *MKI* and Rafale.







Just like that

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

cb4 said:


> Just like that



i am loving it ...


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## MastanKhan

cb4 said:


> Just like that



Hi,

Young man it is a bad bad quality picture and the person who made this picture is totally clueless to air to air combat---and the fools that are praising this picture are bigger id-iots ---.

The J10 is in an air combat but still has three large fuel tanks hung under the carriage----there are no empty missile racks visible for the missile that may have been launched at the enemy air craft----at least there should have been one empty missile rack-----.

You people are so inferior in actual knowledge of air combat that it is shocking how you guys portary yourself by pasting and posting stolen pictures and points of views---but in truth know diddly about the real picture.

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## SBD-3

Interesting picture.....J-10B with fuel tanks.....Shows the program has entering in the phase of drag analysis. Soon we may see weapons integration....


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## ANG

Hi good post Mr. MK. To add to it, the first thing a pilot does in air-to-air combat is "punch" his fuel tanks, eject them! Fuel tanks are a huge drag on maneuverability, and also a fire/explosion hazard when someone is shooting at you.


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## F86 Saber

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Young man it is a bad bad quality picture and the person who made this picture is totally clueless to air to air combat---and the fools that are praising this picture are bigger id-iots ---.
> 
> The J10 is in an air combat but still has three large fuel tanks hung under the carriage----there are no empty missile racks visible for the missile that may have been launched at the enemy air craft----at least there should have been one empty missile rack-----.
> 
> You people are so inferior in actual knowledge of air combat that it is shocking how you guys portary yourself by pasting and posting stolen pictures and points of views---but in truth know diddly about the real picture.



What if the pilot used his guns to shoot down the other plane? and since it was such easy pickings, he didn't bother jettisoning his tanks??


----------



## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Young man it is a bad bad quality picture and the person who made this picture is totally clueless to air to air combat---and the fools that are praising this picture are bigger id-iots ---.
> 
> The J10 is in an air combat but still has three large fuel tanks hung under the carriage----there are no empty missile racks visible for the missile that may have been launched at the enemy air craft----at least there should have been one empty missile rack-----.
> 
> You people are so inferior in actual knowledge of air combat that it is shocking how you guys portary yourself by pasting and posting stolen pictures and points of views---but in truth know diddly about the real picture.


Like they say, "All Photoshops are idiotic, some are interesting"......

---------- Post added at 07:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 PM ----------




gessler said:


> we're gonna get this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> i do hope pak gets fc-20 quickly...or else this beauty will have to go unrivalled for a quite a while


Dude, only bids have been opened, The commercial negotiations are still to come, then the contract signing, then the deliveries.


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## aimarraul



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## abdulbarijan

self delete

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## MastanKhan

F86 Saber said:


> What if the pilot used his guns to shoot down the other plane? and since it was such easy pickings, he didn't bother jettisoning his tanks??



Sir,

Pigs don't fly-------but if they do http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_X2TWQNlHeM/TelXtw8q8wI/AAAAAAAAADs/iAghGuMAC9w/s1600/ReturnOfTheFlyingPigsCROPPED_1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thinkyourself-happy.com/2011/06/flying-pigs-law-of-attraction.html&h=418&w=520&sz=100&tbnid=ARQdsJbGmMwTrM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=126&zoom=1&docid=-WrPOYoc2BtlVM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aZNTT_aEOKGjiQL43r20Bg&sqi=2&ved=0CG0Q9QEwBA&dur=1016
---then it might happen.

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## Edevelop

abdulbarijan said:


>



WOW,
I always think J-10B has all the best things in one!!!

F-16(RADOME)
LAVI (FUSELAGE)
JF-17(DSI) 
MIRAGE 2000 (DELTA WING)
SU-33 (WING BEND SHOWN HERE)
EUROFIGHTER (AVIONICS +CANARD)

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## Gessler

hasnain0099 said:


> Like they say, "All Photoshops are idiotic, some are interesting"......
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 PM ----------
> 
> 
> *Dude, only bids have been opened, The commercial negotiations are still to come, then the contract signing, then the deliveries.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> but we're going to get it anyway, arent we? just like your getting fc-20...


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## nomi007

as all of us know that israel gave some info of lavi to china
may be in future china gives j-10 to them
an artistic impression

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## Black Widow

Sanchez said:


> FC-20 is a hybird of J-10 DSI and J-10A. Radar, engine, avionics, RCS... are subject to PAF's choices of available options. It all depends on PAF's final requirements on the specifications of performance to match up to those of MKI and Rafale.





It can match Rafale but not Su27 series. Su27 is a heavy class fighter where as J10 is medium class. Su27 has only one competitor left in its class, F15.So if it can match Su27 family, It can definitely match F15 family.. 

Just think over it...


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## Black Widow

nomi007 said:


> as all of us know that israel gave some info of lavi to china
> may be in future china gives j-10 to them
> an artistic impression




I like it..

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## alimobin memon

Black Widow said:


> It can match Rafale but not Su27 series. Su27 is a heavy class fighter where as J10 is medium class. Su27 has only one competitor left in its class, F15.So if it can match Su27 family, It can definitely match F15 family..
> 
> Just think over it...


 
I hate when you guys say medium class cannot be compared with heavy class .
In case of conflict you will see F7pg vs su30mkI i aint saying that f7 will destroy it. so those who are saying that j10 can be compared with SU27 means that the avionics are comparable and can fight .... For example f16 has destroyed So many fighters from different country and classes.

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## Black Widow

alimobin memon said:


> I hate when you guys say medium class cannot be compared with heavy class .
> In case of conflict you will see F7pg vs su30mkI i aint saying that f7 will destroy it. so those who are saying that j10 can be compared with SU27 means that the avionics are comparable and can fight .... For example f16 has destroyed So many fighters from different country and classes.




"Rushtame hind, kahte hai sher ko,
Dhokhe me kutte bhi katte hai sher ko" 

Its not about who win in a certain situation. When we compare two fighter planes we must not include special circumstances like "Extra-extra skilled pilot", Super duper technology, etc. In a real war even a bullet (AK47) can bring down fighter plane (Provided the enemy reach in the hanger).

Su27 series and F15 are huge planes, They can carry more Avionics and weapons than smaller size plane. They are equally agile to any small or medium plane. What technology you can implement in J10,F16,Rafael/EFT similar technology can be incorporated with Su27 and F15, but in larger volume. 
As for 4 and 4.5 gen planes RCS doesn't matter, RCS of these heavy planes should not be discussed.

Now you tell me how you can compare one to one a heavy class fighter to small fighters????


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## Gessler

how many fc-20s is pak going to acquire in the overall?

so far deal for 36 planes is sanctioned, but 36 is too small a number to even pose a threat,
some say 150 of these will be bought in future, but others say not more than 50-60

personally i dont think pak can buy 150 of those, a J-10B costs $42 million per piece (approx),
so 150 would cost nearly $6.5 billions, i dont think pak can shell out that much (add to it, logistics and
maintenance stuff, and training/simulators, deal touches $7 billion)

can someone clarify with link how many are gonna be bought??


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## IceCold

gessler said:


> how many fc-20s is pak going to acquire in the overall?
> 
> so far deal for 36 planes is sanctioned, but 36 is too small a number to even pose a threat,
> some say 150 of these will be bought in future, but others say not more than 50-60
> 
> personally i dont think pak can buy 150 of those, a J-10B costs $42 million per piece (approx),
> so 150 would cost nearly $6.5 billions, i dont think pak can shell out that much (add to it, logistics and
> maintenance stuff, and training/simulators, deal touches $7 billion)
> 
> can someone clarify with link how many are gonna be bought??



There is no link for what you want to know. It all comes down to the funds we can manage. Initially 36 are planned and the number may very well go up to 150, possibly TOT as well. But again it all comes down to how much we can manage in cash. Currently we have our hands full with JF-17, F-16s, AWACS.


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## nomi007

latest images

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## Edevelop

Can J-10 do cobra manoeuvre?


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## DANGER-ZONE

nomi007 said:


> latest images



Sorry, these images of *03* were surfaced late 2010 or early 2011. 
No latest images here. 
but thanx for digging stuff, thats how u'll enhance your research skills.

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## rockstarIN

cb4 said:


> Can J-10 do cobra manoeuvre?



Yes, but only once..

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## Gessler

how many other nations (excluding pak/china) are buying j-10?

is there any prospect for sale to other countries? like those from SA?


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## Edevelop

gessler said:


> how many other nations (excluding pak/china) are buying j-10?
> 
> is there any prospect for sale to other countries? like those from SA?



Bangladesh, Iran, Sri Lanka (Possible)


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## Gessler

cb4 said:


> Bangladesh, Iran, Sri Lanka (Possible)


 
Aren't those three countries looking to buy jft? if they're offered j-10,
then i guess they'll have to choose...bcoz those, i dont think can afford
two different MRCAs, if j-10 is bought, jf-17 sale is kaput

i thought venezuela, peru, or some other SA country was gonna buy the j-10


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## Ammyy

cb4 said:


> Bangladesh, Iran, Sri Lanka (Possible)



Iran only interested in Russian planes and hardware but because of sanctions they are not able to buy them


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## DANGER-ZONE

DRDO said:


> Iran only interested in Russian planes and hardware but because of sanctions they are not able to buy them



He cannot back this statement, it was self created list according to potential/willingness of those countries who can buy Chinese Arms.
As for your information Iran Showed interest in J-10 from early days but China has not yet decided (officially) to export J-10 to other countries except Pakistan. Even Pakistan is the in line waiting for the completion of initial PLAAF requirements and Engine problem also. 
China is focusing on JF-17 right now along with Pakistan.


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## ziaulislam

the ignorants dont even see that lavi and j-10 has more differences in size and even design then say mirage2000 and LCA or typhoon and rafale. Antibody posted design sketches, anyone intersted should see them.

lets see will ws-10 become the main engine in j-10 or not..if it does it would mean complete self reliance in aircrft industry for china

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## aamerjamal

i think two reasons that mgiht hold china to export j10
1. Russian engine
2. untill j20 serial production (coz j10 currently the best bird from china).


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## Nishan_101

Now the image is also showing that the PAF FC-20s will be a bit different and would be more capable too..... They would be in a style like the Su-30 tandem seat.


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## Gessler

Nishan_101 said:


> Now the image is also showing that the PAF FC-20s will be a bit different and would be more capable too..... *They would be in a style like the Su-30 tandem seat*.


 
dude, arent twin-seat configs for these sort of planes only for trainer variants?


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## S-A-B-E-R->

gessler said:


> dude, arent twin-seat configs for these sort of planes only for trainer variants?


moste of the time yes but some ACs have tandom seates for precision air strikes and recon

---------- Post added at 11:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 PM ----------




gessler said:


> dude, arent twin-seat configs for these sort of planes only for trainer variants?


moste of the time yes but some ACs have tandom seates for precision air strikes and recon


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## HANI

---------- Post added at 02:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 AM ----------


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## HANI




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## Nishan_101

Although I was with the older 28 F-16s with MLU Upgrade along with the 31 we have and instead of going for Block-52s PAF should have looked towards FC-20s in a numbers like 70s or so....


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## Gessler

Nishan_101 said:


> Although I was with the older 28 F-16s with MLU Upgrade along with the 31 we have and instead of going for Block-52s PAF should have looked towards FC-20s in a numbers like 70s or so....



fc-20 is untested in combat. f-16 at the other hand is a battle-proven plane hence they chose it.

going for more fc-20s is useless. upgrading jf-17 to better standards, with more composites, new engine, radar,
and conformal fuel tanks (as on the ones in your avatar) to make it more or less comparable to f-16 is the best
option. far cheaper than 42 million-per piece fc-20 and better than going for sanction-prone american planes


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## nomi007

gessler said:


> fc-20 is untested in combat. f-16 at the other hand is a battle-proven plane hence they chose it.
> 
> going for more fc-20s is useless. upgrading jf-17 to better standards, with more composites, new engine, radar,
> and conformal fuel tanks (as on the ones in your avatar) to make it more or less comparable to f-16 is the best
> option. far cheaper than 42 million-per piece fc-20 and better than going for sanction-prone american planes


don't worry we will test them

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## SQ8

gessler said:


> dude, arent twin-seat configs for these sort of planes only for trainer variants?


 


S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> moste of the time yes but some ACs have tandom seates for precision air strikes and recon
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 PM ----------
> 
> 
> moste of the time yes but some ACs have tandom seates for precision air strikes and recon



That trend is no longer existent..
The entire F-16I fleet are dual seaters.. as is going to be the MMRCA.


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## Black Widow

ziaulislam said:


> the ignorants dont even see that lavi and j-10 has more differences in size and even design then say mirage2000 and LCA or typhoon and rafale. Antibody posted design sketches, anyone intersted should see them.
> 
> lets see will ws-10 become the main engine in j-10 or not..if it does it would mean complete self reliance in aircrft industry for china



lavi was israeli design. it is widely assuned tht j10 is lavi design. there was a time when usa was not enemy of China.americans were planning to sell there engine and hardware to china. it is widely believed tht americans persuades israelis to provide lavi design to chinese.americans were planning to sabotage russian businessby enterING into chinese market. China bluffed both they copied american engine, russian plane and israeli design.


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## 21 Dec 2012

Black Widow said:


> lavi was israeli design. it is widely assuned tht j10 is lavi design. there was a time when usa was not enemy of China.americans were planning to sell there engine and hardware to china. it is widely believed tht *americans persuades israelis to provide lavi design* to chinese.americans were planning to sabotage russian businessby enterING into chinese market. China bluffed both they copied american engine, russian plane and israeli design.


Don't you think, if what you stated had the teensiest bit of truth in it - that the Americans would have sold them jets rather than designs. Isn't that the whole reason why the Lavi project was stopped?


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## S-A-B-E-R->

Oscar said:


> That trend is no longer existent..
> The entire F-16I fleet are dual seaters.. as is going to be the MMRCA.


i agree but look at the next gens all r being madt to be single seaters with sensor collusion so gud only one pilot is required?


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## PakShaheen79

I think with the revelation of J-10B, J-20, J-21 ... the debate about origin of J-10 must be over! These projects are true reflection of Chinese military aviation industry.

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## rcrmj

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think with the revelation of J-10B, J-20, J-21 ... the debate about origin of J-10 must be over! These projects are true reflection of Chinese military aviation industry.


there is no solid prove that J-10 is a copy of Lavi but rumors, but there is a documented account of the payment India made to France for the development of LCA.

if just by looking at CAC's development stage from early 60s to now you can find the consistancy of their fighter jet design and the reason it has high reputation within China because of its originitality, J-10 is based on J-9 that CAC had been working on for quite few years and agained canard experience from it, so from 60s, 70s, 80s, 90, and now all of their major designs are canard unlike less reputated (actually most critisized) SAC of sticking with Flank families.

bro inferior complex indians will not understand

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## abdulbarijan

rcrmj said:


> there is no solid prove that J-10 is a copy of Lavi but rumors, but there is a documented account of the payment India made to France for the development of LCA.
> 
> if just by looking at CAC's development stage from early 60s to now you can find the consistancy of their fighter jet design and the reason it has high reputation within China because of its originitality, J-10 is based on J-9 that CAC had been working on for quite few years and agained canard experience from it, so from 60s, 70s, 80s, 90, and now all of their major designs are canard unlike less reputated (actually most critisized) SAC of sticking with Flank families.
> *
> bro inferior complex indians will not understand*



You said it yourself man...so why drag the poor little LCA into all this... Every body knows the total "indigenous" developed LCA is having the likes of Russia,Israel,France even USA as "helpers"...LOL!

As far as J-10 being a copy of Lavi goes...even the "great" Israel (which according to our friends from across the border) has the best industry in the world wasn't able to finish Lavi....
Guess who did??....China....
(that is if you guys still consider it a copy)

So enough off topic discussion lets go back to the topic...

*So can some body here tell me about the development of HMS's in China.. planned to be used on their newer jets like J-10B (in particular)
*


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## 帅的一匹

China is far head of India in the Combat airplane R&D.


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## nitetrogen70

so in the end which engine will be used for this plane ? i heard people say ws13 while others saying ws10b or something along those lines ?


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## ziaulislam

ws-10, ws-13 is for thunder.......
but we still arent sure whether its ready or not, as china is still buying engines from russia..most say its replacement and that ws-10 is already in function though


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## Nishan_101

Honestly speaking I was with the procedure that if PAC and CAC has completed the JF-17 last PT-06 with composites, RD-93B, Retractable IFRP and FLIR(may be if available) then after its successful flight test they will going to produce its dual seat with all hte same things that are present on the single seat version. Then PAC has started production on their own for about 110 JF-17s Block-Is with some 30 Dual seat and a separate procurement of 50 Dual seat as AJTs for CCS more over they have only going for the 28 old F-16s Block-15s with the 31 existing being upgraded till 2010 with the funds from PAF side along with the weapons. So if PAC has planned the JF-17 procurement like: 110 JF-17s Block-Is with 30 Dual seat then 110 JF-17s Block-IIs + 30 Dual seat and 110 JF-17s Block-IIIs + some 30 Dual seat(Thing might have stealth as well). And like now they can place an order for 50-70 FC-20P that can they will going to produce at PAC Kamra with CACs help then the situation in 2020 will be totally different.
PAF would have a fleet like that:
330 JF-17s all Blocks
59 F-16s Block-15s MLU-3s
70+ FC-20Ps

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## manofwar

I dont know why people are always comparing LCA and JF 17....
It's not like they will be facing each other much.

Besides, LCA and JF 17 were built for different missions-
JF 17 to provide a cheap, multi role fighter to PAF
and LCA to provide IAF with a cheap workhorse......

A more proper comparison will be Rafale vs JF 17 (as Rafale is the multi role fighter of IAF)

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## SBD-3

gessler said:


> if j-10 is a copy of lavi then LCA is definetly a copy of mirage=
> is that your slogan now? instead of pressing slogans into biased posts, why dont
> you try to prove it as i've done here? -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> lavi -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> sure there could be some differences, but the basic design and airframe structure
> is copied off from lavi no doubt.
> 
> and what? LCA copy of mirage?
> the only common factors between these are that they're both tail-less delta
> wing designs and both use a single engine, check this out -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> courtesy: stealth spy
> 
> next time, ziaulislam, back up your troll with visual proof, at least!


look at the picture and see for you self that how J-10 differs from Lavi. One word, rather than running to rubbish wikipedia and ratshit forum.Better spend some $$$ on purchasing some good material about the things (of course if you have them).

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Pakistani posters are again showing their ignorance and lack of knowledge----just by talking tough, you don't prove nothing---just by circling certain parts of aircraft---does not mean anything----.

Lavi was a 80's design---thousands of man hours put into it---a perfect oppurtunity for the israelis to make some money out of it and the chinese to take on a flying design---bring about some needed changes in the design to make it a 21st century aircraft----.

For you superstar----when the israelis stole the mirage design from switzeland and came up with their own aircraft----those blue prints weighed over two tons of paper only----. The israelis used the design and came up with their own version---they had scientists as well---very capable scientists---but they didnot want to design an aircraft on their own---they made it similiar to mirage 3---they also feared sanctions and then they decided to go for a next generation aircraft---they had the model of the F16 and the mirage 2000 in front of them---they came up with ther lavi.

Now for the chinese---what other attraction they would have with israeli aviation other than the lavi design and israeli aviation engineers who have worked on it----. China needs a modern single engine aircraft design----israel has just shelved one.

WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS THAT WHERE DO YOU PEOPLE GET THIS IDEA THAT THERE IS SOMETHING BAD ABOUT THIS EXCHANGE----why does this foolish thinking keep popping up in you r discussions all the time.

Suppose israel didnot have the complete permission of the united states to share this design----wouldn't it be prudent on the part of the chinese and israelis to make some changes---and as it is a 10-15 years newer project---why not enhance the design parameters and merge them with a newer technology.

I mean to say it would be utterly stupid on the part of the chinese not to have used an existing design---whence they are known for that in the past and present---and you pakistanis are coming up with your own convulated and twisted views and perception---. 

If it walks like a duck---if it quacks like a duck---it is a duck.

Who teaches you people these things----is there a school that you guys go to or you people just simply have no exposure to the world of technology and technical designs---the effort put into stealing existing designs---the espionage that goes into the effort---the end products that are similiar but are not.

The speed that this project has come into fruitation must leave no doubt in anyone's mind as to what the source of the fountainhead.

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## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pakistani posters are again showing their ignorance and lack of knowledge----just by talking tough, you don't prove nothing---just by circling certain parts of aircraft---does not mean anything----.
> 
> Lavi was a 80's design---thousands of man hours put into it---a perfect oppurtunity for the israelis to make some money out of it and the chinese to take on a flying design---bring about some needed changes in the design to make it a 21st century aircraft----.
> 
> For you superstar----when the israelis stole the mirage design from switzeland and came up with their own aircraft----those blue prints weighed over two tons of paper only----. The israelis used the design and came up with their own version---.
> 
> Now for the chinese---what other attraction they would have with israeli aviation other than the lavi design and israeli aviation engineers who have worked on it----. China needs a modern single engine aircraft design----israel has just shelved one.
> 
> WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS THAT WHERE DO YOU PEOPLE GET THIS IDEA THAT THERE IS SOMETHING BAD ABOUT THIS EXCHANGE----why does this foolish thinking keep popping up in you r discussions all the time.
> 
> Suppose israel didnot have the complete permission of the united states to share this design----wouldn't it be prudent on the part of the chinese and israelis to make some changes---and as it is a 10-15 years newer project---why not enhance the design parameters and merge them with a newer technology.
> 
> I mean to say it would be utterly stupid on the part of the chinese not to have used an existing design---whence they are known for that in the past and present---and you pakistanis are coming up with your own convulated and twisted views and perception---.
> 
> If it walks like a duck---if it quacks like a duck---it is a duck.
> 
> Who teaches you people these things----is there a school that you guys go to or you people just simply have no exposure to the world of technology and technical designs---the effort put into stealing existing designs---the espionage that goes into the effort---the end products that are similiar but are not.
> 
> The speed that this project has come into fruitation must leave no doubt in anyone's mind as to what the source of the fountainhead.


 
Absolutely agree with you, it doesn't matter you get it either way. As long as it serves you well, it is good. LAVI, bench marked against F-16 was indeed a superb design. And just to add, all those who think Israeli design would be inferior. The Israelis lacked radar skills but their design and requirements far exceeded than that of most air forces. It was IDFAF who converted a poorly conceived interceptor (Mirage III) into a global superstar.

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## PakShaheen79

Where is FC-20 in all this debate of Where did J-10 come from? Guys, please stick to the topic!


----------



## nitetrogen70

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pakistani posters are again showing their ignorance and lack of knowledge----just by talking tough, you don't prove nothing---just by circling certain parts of aircraft---does not mean anything----.
> 
> Lavi was a 80's design---thousands of man hours put into it---a perfect oppurtunity for the israelis to make some money out of it and the chinese to take on a flying design---bring about some needed changes in the design to make it a 21st century aircraft----.
> 
> For you superstar----when the israelis stole the mirage design from switzeland and came up with their own aircraft----those blue prints weighed over two tons of paper only----. The israelis used the design and came up with their own version---.
> 
> Now for the chinese---what other attraction they would have with israeli aviation other than the lavi design and israeli aviation engineers who have worked on it----. China needs a modern single engine aircraft design----israel has just shelved one.
> 
> WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS THAT WHERE DO YOU PEOPLE GET THIS IDEA THAT THERE IS SOMETHING BAD ABOUT THIS EXCHANGE----why does this foolish thinking keep popping up in you r discussions all the time.
> 
> Suppose israel didnot have the complete permission of the united states to share this design----wouldn't it be prudent on the part of the chinese and israelis to make some changes---and as it is a 10-15 years newer project---why not enhance the design parameters and merge them with a newer technology.
> 
> I mean to say it would be utterly stupid on the part of the chinese not to have used an existing design---whence they are known for that in the past and present---and you pakistanis are coming up with your own convulated and twisted views and perception---.
> 
> If it walks like a duck---if it quacks like a duck---it is a duck.
> 
> Who teaches you people these things----is there a school that you guys go to or you people just simply have no exposure to the world of technology and technical designs---the effort put into stealing existing designs---the espionage that goes into the effort---the end products that are similiar but are not.
> 
> The speed that this project has come into fruitation must leave no doubt in anyone's mind as to what the source of the fountainhead.


 just like to add since this plane has input from the west and east this can really change ones perception about the quality of this aircraft

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## MastanKhan

nitetrogen70 said:


> just like to add since this plane has input from the west and east this can really change ones perception about the quality of this aircraft



Hi,

Absolutely---you are so correct in your assessment----you look at the design and the known capability of the J10 and it is not your typical chinese aircraft at all. The J10 just takes the chinese millitary aircraft to a different pleateau---the physical appearance is more of a european / american design----.

Now only if the chinese could make a one piece bubble canopy.

Industrial espionage or collaboration has always played an extremely important role in the development of any industry----. In the defence industry---as there is no recourse---basically no patent protection---nations who want to seek bigger and better---are extremely actively searching for other venues.

As a matter of fact---the defence is the only industry where the millitary can say---we stole your design---copied it and now we can compete with you---or we stole your designs and now we made it better and we can take you out.

With the israeli collaboration, the chinse got to the J10A---with the pakistani collaboration they took this aircraft to a different pleateau in the form of J10B.

It ought to be a matter of pride for pakistani posters to say that our millitary industrial base and joint ventures are based upon making better and potent versions of current designs available to us---it saves us a lots of foreign exchange and time.



PakShaheen79 said:


> Where is FC-20 in all this debate of Where did J-10 come from? Guys, please stick to the topic!


 
Hi,

I think it came about from the title of the thread---if I am not wrong

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## nitetrogen70

haha couldn't agree with you more, i mean isn't that what capitalism is all about. On top of that people fail to realize that the j 20 is the end product of having input from all sides and making something brand new  i can bet that this plane will be better then what people think it to be


----------



## Stealth

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pakistani posters are again showing their ignorance and lack of knowledge----just by talking tough, you don't prove nothing---just by circling certain parts of aircraft---does not mean anything----.
> 
> Lavi was a 80's design---thousands of man hours put into it---a perfect oppurtunity for the israelis to make some money out of it and the chinese to take on a flying design---bring about some needed changes in the design to make it a 21st century aircraft----.
> 
> For you superstar----when the israelis stole the mirage design from switzeland and came up with their own aircraft----those blue prints weighed over two tons of paper only----. The israelis used the design and came up with their own version---they had scientists as well---very capable scientists---but they didnot want to design an aircraft on their own---they made it similiar to mirage 3---they also feared sanctions and then they decided to go for a next generation aircraft---they had the model of the F16 and the mirage 2000 in front of them---they came up with ther lavi.
> 
> Now for the chinese---what other attraction they would have with israeli aviation other than the lavi design and israeli aviation engineers who have worked on it----. China needs a modern single engine aircraft design----israel has just shelved one.
> 
> WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS THAT WHERE DO YOU PEOPLE GET THIS IDEA THAT THERE IS SOMETHING BAD ABOUT THIS EXCHANGE----why does this foolish thinking keep popping up in you r discussions all the time.
> 
> Suppose israel didnot have the complete permission of the united states to share this design----wouldn't it be prudent on the part of the chinese and israelis to make some changes---and as it is a 10-15 years newer project---why not enhance the design parameters and merge them with a newer technology.
> 
> I mean to say it would be utterly stupid on the part of the chinese not to have used an existing design---whence they are known for that in the past and present---and you pakistanis are coming up with your own convulated and twisted views and perception---.
> 
> If it walks like a duck---if it quacks like a duck---it is a duck.
> 
> Who teaches you people these things----is there a school that you guys go to or you people just simply have no exposure to the world of technology and technical designs---the effort put into stealing existing designs---the espionage that goes into the effort---the end products that are similiar but are not.
> 
> The speed that this project has come into fruitation must leave no doubt in anyone's mind as to what the source of the fountainhead.



If you get tech from Russia and paint grey scene called Brahmos thn its "our super duper tuper loper sonic missile" but when chines make something which they cant thn "its copy"


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## SBD-3

Stealth said:


> If you get tech from Russia and paint grey scene called Brahmos thn its "our super duper tuper loper sonic missile" but when chines make something which they cant thn "its copy"


You can't do anything about what the others say. In fact, the way I see it, they tend to find refuge in the argument. Indians were shell shocked more than US, when Chinese allowed to leak J-20 pictures.Chinese themselves, never officially denied the rumors of Israeli help. J-10, nevertheless, became the tipping point of revolution in Chinese Aviation Industry.

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## Nishan_101

I hope that Oman will look towards FC-20s instead of EF-2000 and on JF-17 Block-IIs too.


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## SBD-3

gessler said:


> "if j-10 is a copy of lavi, then lca is a copy of mirage"
> 
> that was the point i disproved^^. *you cant deny the fact that j-10 could never have been built
> to its current capability if the israelis didn't help. whereas lca and mirage use
> entirely different means of airframe construction and role they were meant to
> perform*



Well in real world we breath today, J-10 has not only materialized but gone a distence in its evolution while LCA still awaits it faith (Honestly its surprising how an aircraft would evolve without even operational induction). A counter argument can be that would LCA be possible without help from dassalt and GE?....



> the actual chinese plan for a J-7 (MiG-21 copy) replacement was a plane called J-9. but later on
> chinese got in touch with israelis for helping them with the tech and design data of the lavi, to come
> up with a new plane. based on the lavi, but ofcourse with some changes in design (according to
> chinese specifications/requirements), the j-9 was dropped in favor of this new plane, called J-10, which as many
> pointed out, had numerous western inputs, thus superior in every way to the j-9 project that it replaced



The only thing we know about J-9 that it was a concept which never materialized with no authentic records available. Again you apparently are running back to Wikipedia for searches. 


> i dont know what point you guys have made by showing me sketches of j-10
> and lavi (which i've shown you already), and told how they differ. *sure they differ
> somewhat because IDF's and PLAAF's requirements arent the same*, but that
> doesn't prove in any way how j-10 isn't based on lavi design, which is a well-known
> fact throughout the world, the chinese industry itself had never denied
> israeli help in j-10, but i dont know why PAKISTANIS are so interested in
> tryin' to prove they are whole different aircraft


You have answered yourself here, why would i need a supersonic design e.g. EF when my requirements asked for a trans-sonic design like F-16 or a subsonic design like Mig-17? It is certainly not the case that Chinese invested in a design which remained experimental, never materialized as they could have an operational design e.g. Fulcrum which could come with ToT like previous Chinese designs. There are many things we dont know, so all we do is speculate. Btw neither Israel nor China has officially denied or accepted the fact that there was a collaboration on LAVI. Just because wiki says something, doesn't make it a "well-known fact".



Nishan_101 said:


> I hope that Oman will look towards FC-20s instead of EF-2000 and on JF-17 Block-IIs too.


They have long been negotiating for EF, I don't know why do we hope for things which have nothing to back them except someone's mere emotions.

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## MastanKhan

Stealth said:


> If you get tech from Russia and paint grey scene called Brahmos thn its "our super duper tuper loper sonic missile" but when chines make something which they cant thn "its copy"



Hi,

So--in the end, what difference does it make----If it does the job that it was designed to do---. 

To the dead---is death by a russian bullet any different than a chinese bullet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## Gessler

whats the AESA radar on J-10B? is it an improvement to the KLJ-10 or totally new?

i read about a proposed AESA called type-0553 or something like that, i dont remember,
would like some knowledgable member to throw some LIGHT on this


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## Manticore

gessler said:


> whats the AESA radar on J-10B? is it an improvement to the KLJ-10 or totally new?
> 
> i read about a proposed AESA called type-0553 or something like that, i dont remember,
> would like some knowledgable member to throw some LIGHT on this


search the thread - radar ranges of different fighters --- this thread has some 'rumours'


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## Nishan_101

*Pakistan Air Force: 36 on order (As of February 2011) for delivery in 2012, with an eventual requirement for 150*
Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Storm Force

Eventual requirement MEANS NOTHING........

this figure of 150 j10/fc20 has been made up by PDF members as the necsssary nos required to face off 126 mmrca

NO MENTION OF 150 FC20 has been EVER made by PAF or a offical spokesman.

INFACT some PDF members believe EVEN the proposed order of 36 is not yet concrete. 

This 150 STATEMENT IS A LITTLE LIKE INDIANS SUGGESTED IAF need 52 fighter sdqs by 2025 to face dual PLAAF OR PAF threat. OR that one day IAF will field 300 FGFA 

In other words just hearssay.

STICK TO GROOUND REALITY 

WAT HAVE PAF really ordered if any ??????/


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## DANGER-ZONE

Storm Force said:


> Eventual requirement MEANS NOTHING........
> 
> this figure of 150 j10/fc20 has been made up by PDF members as the necsssary nos required to face off 126 mmrca
> 
> NO MENTION OF 150 FC20 has been EVER made by PAF or a offical spokesman.
> 
> INFACT some PDF members believe EVEN the proposed order of 36 is not yet concrete.
> 
> This 150 STATEMENT IS A LITTLE LIKE INDIANS SUGGESTED IAF need 52 fighter sdqs by 2025 to face dual PLAAF OR PAF threat. OR that one day IAF will field 300 FGFA
> 
> In other words just hearssay.
> 
> STICK TO GROOUND REALITY
> 
> WAT HAVE PAF really ordered if any ??????/



For your information we have ordered nothing for FC-20 yet, initial quantity 36 is still not confirmed. 
and for your point on 150 FC-20, its quite valid but yet *"HEART ATTACKS ARE NOT PRE-INFORMED"*. 
So keep your health fit with 126 MMRCA delivery in due time and early production of TEJAS.


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## Manticore




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## aamerjamal

Storm Force said:


> Eventual requirement MEANS NOTHING........
> 
> this figure of 150 j10/fc20 has been made up by PDF members as the necsssary nos required to face off 126 mmrca
> 
> NO MENTION OF 150 FC20 has been EVER made by PAF or a offical spokesman.
> 
> INFACT some PDF members believe EVEN the proposed order of 36 is not yet concrete.
> 
> This 150 STATEMENT IS A LITTLE LIKE INDIANS SUGGESTED IAF need 52 fighter sdqs by 2025 to face dual PLAAF OR PAF threat. OR that one day IAF will field 300 FGFA
> 
> In other words just hearssay.
> 
> STICK TO GROOUND REALITY
> 
> WAT HAVE PAF really ordered if any ??????/



with this logic wat india ordered for MMRCA "NOTHING" *STICK TO GROOUND REALITY* WAT HAVE IAF really ordered if any ?

before answering do check you logic if something is not final even if it is in price negotiation its nothing


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## pilli

Nishan_101 said:


> I hope that Oman will look towards FC-20s instead of EF-2000 and on JF-17 Block-IIs too.


Pakistan has a serious requirement of Jf-17 Block II , so i dont think they will wait.


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## Donatello

Storm Force said:


> Show me the FC20 spoke person taling about PAF buying or negotiating to buy the plane
> 
> or show me some thing like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MMRCA for india and dassult is the most feircly fought competition in the world IN COMPARISON 36 fc20 for PAF is chinease whispers OR should we say PDF whispers only



Firstly, the Indian MMRCA is definitely not the most fiercely fought competition in the world. The Saudi Arms deal was/is.

Second, my source in PAF is one who has been posted to CAC in Chengdu for the past 5 years and has confirmed J-10 evaluations and negotiations. The question is what exact specifications the J-10 will come with for PAF, like engine, avionics etc. I'll take his word over your BS any day.

Third.....doesn't it suck when facts get in the way of your shitty argument,Storm Force Troll?

Fourth, learn to spell.......there is a spell checker on PDF you know.

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## siegecrossbow

Courtesy of Lanpang from FY-JS:

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## Gessler

Donatello said:


> Firstly, the Indian MMRCA is definitely not the most fiercely fought competition in the world. The Saudi Arms deal was/is.
> 
> Second, my source in PAF is one who has been posted to CAC in Chengdu for the past 5 years and has confirmed J-10 evaluations and negotiations. The question is what exact specifications the J-10 will come with for PAF, like engine, avionics etc. I'll take his word over your BS any day.
> 
> Third.....doesn't it suck when facts get in the way of your shitty argument,Storm Force Troll?
> 
> Fourth, learn to spell.......there is a spell checker on PDF you know.



Well, do you really think any single saudi arms deal would run into $20 billions?? Do you think saudis would
purchase 126 (could grow to 200) fighter jets from aboard at a single deal? No, they cant. Another thing is,
not only the competing six companies but also various other countries like Brazil, UAE, Oman etc. were
keenly watching the M-MRCA decision, to see if they can employ the same procedure to select combat
planes for purchase, the saudi deals aren't looked upon with such great earnest, especially because
if their deals are basically managed/corrupted by the kings.

--

We dont disagree that negotiations for FC-20 are ongoing, but nothing is OFFICIALLY CONFIRMED, like,
for instance, the exact number of aircraft that would be purchased, or on what variant of J-10 (A/B) the
FC-20 would be based on. Whereas in the M-MRCA, the 126 planes purchase is CONFIRMED officially, there's
no doubt, the thing that remained to be sorted out until recently was WHICH aircraft would be purchased,
as it is a competitive tender, not HOW MANY, WHEN, or WHETHER the purchase will take place or not, which
is the case of the FC-20 deal, which is direct govt-to-govt deal, no tender.


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## MastanKhan

gessler said:


> Well, do you really think any single saudi arms deal would run into $20 billions?? Do you think saudis would
> purchase 126 (could grow to 200) fighter jets from aboard at a single deal? No, they cant. Another thing is,
> not only the competing six companies but also various other countries like Brazil, UAE, Oman etc. were
> keenly watching the M-MRCA decision, to see if they can employ the same procedure to select combat
> planes for purchase, the saudi deals aren't looked upon with such great earnest, especially because
> if their deals are basically managed/corrupted by the kings.
> 
> --
> 
> We dont disagree that negotiations for FC-20 are ongoing, but nothing is OFFICIALLY CONFIRMED, like,
> for instance, the exact number of aircraft that would be purchased, or on what variant of J-10 (A/B) the
> FC-20 would be based on. Whereas in the M-MRCA, the 126 planes purchase is CONFIRMED officially, there's
> no doubt, the thing that remained to be sorted out until recently was WHICH aircraft would be purchased,
> as it is a competitive tender, not HOW MANY, WHEN, or WHETHER the purchase will take place or not, which
> is the case of the FC-20 deal, which is direct govt-to-govt deal, no tender.



Hi,

The reason I understand the MRCA deal to go the way it did---#1 india wanted to put pakistan into its rightful position---telling it---look buddy---I control the defence procurement market---I can stop whomsoever from selling you the equipment that you want.

#2---going thru all that was available---iaf got to test all the aircraft---.

I doubt if uae or oman or brazil would employee similiar tactic getting an aircraft---I think it was just a wastage of time and resource and more of a show---just struting around---that is what I feel---india does things that only it can.

Now going for the rafael was a great decision---it cutoff pakistan from getting frontline equipment from the only western nation that was willing to sell----but pakistan deserve that from france---pakistan has put together france so many times---pay back is a ******.

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## Gessler

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The reason I understand the MRCA deal to go the way it did---#1 india wanted to put pakistan into its rightful position---telling it---look buddy---I control the defence procurement market---I can stop whomsoever from selling you the equipment that you want.
> 
> #2---going thru all that was available---iaf got to test all the aircraft---.
> 
> I doubt if uae or oman or brazil would employee similiar tactic getting an aircraft---I think it was just a wastage of time and resource and more of a show---just struting around---that is what I feel---india does things that only it can.
> 
> Now going for the rafael was a great decision---it cutoff pakistan from getting frontline equipment from the only western nation that was willing to sell----but pakistan deserve that from france---pakistan has put together france so many times---pay back is a ******.



Well, you are right in most of your post.

But the actual fact about the kick-backs/side-benefits of the M-MRCA is -

1) we DO need urgently a large numer of fighters
2) when deals go big, any international companies would be hell-bent on tryin to win them
3) in the process, they would DEFINITELY offer kickbacks or side-benefits to India, to gain upper hand over their
opponents in the tender
4) our air force would take ONLY what it wants, especially under defence minister AK Antony, who is a
non-corrupt fellow as we know it
5) as it is we would buy one of the offered fighters, then why not take all the side-benefits that come along with it? REGARDLESS of what fighter it is.
6) whatever perks are available, a good lobby would ensure that we just buy only what is required,
and just fully utilize whatever side-benefit is gained from the deal

it is not like we bought Rafale for blocking sale of equipment to pak, IAF wanted a fighter that meets
requirements (after the evaluation), the french beforehand could have said that they would stop sales to pak if India 
buys Rafale, and as a COINCIDENCE, Rafale won. French kept their promise, thats all.


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## araz

gessler said:


> Well, do you really think any single saudi arms deal would run into $20 billions?? Do you think saudis would
> purchase 126 (could grow to 200) fighter jets from aboard at a single deal? No, they cant. Another thing is,
> not only the competing six companies but also various other countries like Brazil, UAE, Oman etc. were
> keenly watching the M-MRCA decision, to see if they can employ the same procedure to select combat
> planes for purchase, the saudi deals aren't looked upon with such great earnest, especially because
> if their deals are basically managed/corrupted by the kings.
> 
> --
> 
> We dont disagree that negotiations for FC-20 are ongoing, but nothing is OFFICIALLY CONFIRMED, like,
> for instance, the exact number of aircraft that would be purchased, or on what variant of J-10 (A/B) the
> FC-20 would be based on. Whereas in the M-MRCA, the 126 planes purchase is CONFIRMED officially, there's
> no doubt, the thing that remained to be sorted out until recently was WHICH aircraft would be purchased,
> as it is a competitive tender, not HOW MANY, WHEN, or WHETHER the purchase will take place or not, which
> is the case of the FC-20 deal, which is direct govt-to-govt deal, no tender.



Did you bother to read the news regarding the Saudi arms deal. For your information it is worth 30 billion $ and involves not only 85 F15s but upgrade their fleet of F15s to the latest standards. No one denies that india has had the world falling over itself to sell it stuff, but dont be so arrogant to think that you are the only one with the money. THERE ARE OTHER FOOLS AROUND WITH MORE MONEY THAN YOU!! So grow up!! Now if you want me to qualify my statemtn then ask nicely other wise behave like a good boy.!!
Araz

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## Gessler

araz said:


> Did you bother to read the news regarding the Saudi arms deal. For your information it is worth 30 billion $ and involves not only 85 F15s but upgrade their fleet of F15s to the latest standards. No one denies that india has had the world falling over itself to sell it stuff, but dont be so arrogant to think that you are the only one with the money. THERE ARE OTHER FOOLS AROUND WITH MORE MONEY THAN YOU!! So grow up!! Now if you want me to qualify my statemtn then ask nicely other wise behave like a good boy.!!
> Araz



I find it hard to behave like a good boy, araz. Especially in situations like this.

Is the Saudi arms deal a competitive tender? No. What is the total number of aircraft to be bought? According to
your own words, its 85. Well, M-MRCA could end up supplying 200, anywhere more than double that 85 figure.

It's but natural that leading world players, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, EADS, Dassault, MiG, SAAB were participating
in it, and you know that this was not a simple "give money, take contract, get money" that the Saudi arms deals
are. A direct govt-to-govt fails to have as much attention as do tenders.

We're going to sign up a $35-40 billions deal for upto 300 stealth fighters with Russia soon. But this, regardless
of its massive value and aircraft number, wouldn't attract as much attention as M-MRCA did. You have to
acknowledge it, 

Additionally, what do you think is cleverer?

> Spending 30 billions to buy 85 1970s-era platforms like F-15?

or

> Spending 20 billions to buy 200 modern-age aircraft like Rafale?

Decide for youself, regards.

Gessler


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## nomi007

which engine paf will prefer
ws-10b or al-31
ws-10b


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## alimobin memon

Pakistan to get the 3rd squadron of JF17 this month


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## PakShaheen79

alimobin memon said:


> Pakistan to get the 3rd squadron of JF17 this month


 
Though you are posting in wrong threat but still a Source or link for this news would be highly appreciated.


----------



## fatman17

Chinas J-10 Jet Fighter: How Much Do We Know?


by Richard Fisher, Jr.

Published on January 16th, 2007


Since late December 2006 China has been rolling out its Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) Jian-10 (Fighter-10, or J-10) multi-role fighter, with some publicity. We have seen unprecedented video[1] and print press coverage[2] of the fighter and interviews with prominent members of the CAC design team.[3] The purposes seem to be, first, to demonstrate to Chinese and foreigners alike that China can build her own "indigenous" aircraft itself, without relying on foreign help, and second, that as a responsible "rising power," China has nothing to hide from the world (the theme of the National Defense White Paper of December 29, 2006). 

But the whole exercise has also been conspicuous for what it lacks. First, no official data have been provided regarding the actual capabilities and performance of the J-10. And second, we have heard little or nothing from the many Israeli and Russian engineers who helped make this aircraft possible. 

From the early 1990s to the present period the J-10 has been viewed by government and non-government analysts as a key indicator of Chinese military potential, and as such, has been an object of intense scrutiny and speculation. In 1997 the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence produced speculative artist imagery of the J-10 (an honor previously reserved for mysterious new Soviet combat aircraft) estimating that an eventual twin-engine version would fly off a future Chinese aircraft carrier. But at about the same time, many U.S. government and non-government analysts regarded the J-10 (and the idea of Chinese aircraft carriers) as far-fetched. 



American Estimates: In 1997 the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence produced speculative imagery of a twin-engine J-10 flying form a future Chinese aircraft carrier, which at that time, was an estimate viewed by some U.S. analysts as humorous. Credit: Office of Naval Intelligence 


The J-10 program started in the 1960s with the J-9, a canard (horizontal stabilizer in front of the wing) fighter (like the J-10) which resembled the Swedish JA-37 Viggen. The J-9 was conceived of then, in the years of the Sino-Soviet confrontation, as short take-off and fast climbing interceptor to ward of invading Soviet aircraft. Work started at the Shenyang Aircraft Company, but was switched to CAC. As time passed, however, with no plane, the concept of the J-10 evolved into that of a full multi-role fighter. The Chinese would like the world to believe that the J-10 is "designed and made entirely in China."[4] However, over the course of its development the J-10 required substantial technical and consulting inputs from Israel and then Russia. The J-10s basic configuration has clear influences from the Israeli Aircraft Industries Lavi,-- an aircraft program, never completed, that was largely paid for by the United States.[5] These include its underslug air intake and slightly anhedral delta wings. What appears to be a likely early concept for the J-10 even copies the Lavis vertical stabilizer. 

Possible Early Configuration: In the mid-1990s the model of an early configuration of the J-10 was given legitimacy by the presence of former Politburo member Li Peng in the picture. The Israeli Lavi-style vertical stabilizer is apparent. Credit:

The J-10 is furthermore completely "fly by wire," or computer driven, an achievement probably to be credited to Israeli consultants, who in turn may in turn have relied on their exposure to U.S. technology associated with the pioneering fly-by-wire Lockheed-Martin F-16. Chengdu did develop its own system, however, which it tested on a modified JJ-6 training aircraft.

Finally, the J-10 was developed in considerable secrecy. Planned debuts in previous years were evidently canceled. The aircraft has been unveiled just now not as a prototype but as an aircraft already in production and serving with the PLA air force. What do we know about it?


We Know #1: The CAC J-10 is now in production and is serving in PLA Air Force units.

Internet source imagery confirms that the J-10 is flying in at least two active PLAAF regiments, the first becoming operational in 2005, plus a testing regiment. Other reporting indicates that another two more regiments may be transitioning to the J-10. At least one regiment contains two-seat J-10S versions, which reportedly first flew in December 2003. The J-10S is designed for training, but could in the future be upgraded to dedicated attack variant. It should be expected that the PLA Navy will purchase some to replace obsolete J-7 fighters. And furthermore, Pakistan may be first in line to purchase the J-10, perhaps toward the end of this decade, or soon into the next. 


We Know #2: China now has a 4th generation multi-role fighter having performance that will soon approach that of the Lockheed-Martin F-16 Block 40.

The J-10 exhibits the major characteristics of 4th generation fighters such as the F-16 and F/A-18, such as computer driven or "fly-by-wire" control systems that ensure far greater flying precision; use of high-thrust turbofan engines to ensure a near 1 to 1 thrust-to-weight ratio for high performance 8-9G combat maneuvering; and the ability to employ advanced radar and weapons. 

With its canard configuration and slightly larger wing, the J-10 can probably be credited with slightly better maneuverability than the F-16. 

The fighter employs a Chinese developed radar, which, although it may rely on technology obtained from Russian or other sources, is nevertheless a Chinese product it can now sell. This radar, the maker, name or performance of which has not been officially disclosed, is usually assumed to employ a mechanically slewed planar array comparable to early 1990s era Western fighter radar, but with the performance enhancements gained from integrating more modern computer components. 

Multiple images also confirm the J-10 uses modern Chinese-made cockpit systems to include hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) controls that enable use of the range of combat systems while hands remain on these critical aircraft controls, and glass multi-function displays which allow a pilot to view flight system data or target imagery by pressing a button. 

We Know #3: The J-10 is armed with modern weapons systems and can be refueled in flight.

The J-10 employs now (or will soon be able to employ) modern anti-air and ground attack weapons. In early 2005 Chinese sources disclosed to the author that CAC had completed integration of the PL-12/SD-10 self-guiding medium range air-to-air missile,[6] two to four of which can be carried by the J-10. While the PL-12 relies on a Russian/Ukrainian developed missile radar, its Chinese designed missile engine is credited with giving it a slightly greater range than the comparable Russian Vympel R-77, which makes it very competitive with relatively recent versions of the U.S. Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM. 

As for ground attack, an early January AVIC-1 press conference displayed a J-10 model equipped with two low-light/laser targeting pods attached to the engine intake. While this modification has yet to be seen on J-10s "in the field," this modification is how the F-16 employs the twin-pod LANTRIN targeting and low-light navigation system, or the new singke-pod systems. The F-16 did not integrate LANTRIN until its Block 40 version, which began delivery in 1989, a decade after the initial F-16As entered service. This Chinese targeting pod was developed, according to Russian sources, with the help of the Russian UOMZ optical targeting system company, but again, it will be marketed as a Chinese system. Imaging made available over the last 18 months and more recent videos show the J-10 can carry bombs on wing and fuselage, for a total of 11 weapon attachments. The use of targeting pods indicates the J-10s potential to employ the laser and navigation satellite guided bombs revealed by the Louyang Company and CASIC consortium during the 2006 Zhuhai show. 

At a January 5 press conference AVIC-1 revealed a J-10 model equipped with two targeting pods of a type that received Russian technical assistance. In service it is likely the J-10 will use only one such pod, to target new Chinese-made laser and satellite-guided munitions. Credit: CCTV 


A video released late December also included the first ever images of a J-10 equipped with a fixed probe for aerial refueling, taking fuel from a Chinese-built Xian H-6U tanking aircraft. Images of initial J-10 units do not indicate this is a current standard feature for the J-10, but it could for future versions. Such tanking ability would significantly increase the J-10s operational flexibility to sustain longer combat air patrols or to undertake longer range attack missions. 


We Know #4: The Chinese are about to master complex propulsion technology, and with the imminent production of the Shenyang WS-10A "Taihang" turbofan engine, the J-10 can soon be marketed as a fully indigenous Chinese 4th generation fighter.

Turbofan and jet engine technology has been one area in which the Chinese have encountered great difficulty in developing indigenous systems. The metallurgy of long-lasting fan blades is extremely complicated, as is the engineering, which is often viewed as much art as science. 

Today the J-10 is powered by a Russian AL-31FN engine. China has purchased 150 AL-31FNs and in the recent past Russian sources have spoken of their expectation that China would purchase another 200 or so. The final number purchased will depend on how quickly Chinas WS-10A Taihang turbofan engine can complete final testing and reach sufficient production to contribute to the J-10 program.

Chinas quest for a modern high performance turbofan combat aircraft engine has lasted as long as the J-10s story. While WS-10A is given a lower profile in reporting about the PLA, is perhaps a more important accomplishment than the J-10, inasmuch as this new engine enables multiple combat aircraft, enables the development of modern turbofans for airliner and cargo transports and its establishes a critical knowledge base for developing 5th generation fighters engines. 


Official performance statistics for the Taihang have yet to be revealed. Numerous Chinese sources credit this engine with a 13,200kg maximum thrust, which could compare very favorably to the 12,500kg rating for the AL-31FN now used by the J-10.

China is also developing thrust vectoring for this engine, which serves to greatly enhance maneuverability and is also useful under certain conditions, for lowering landing speeds. 

However, it appears that Shenyang and its J-11B, a greatly indigenized version of the Sukhoi Su-27 being co-produced by Shenyang, will have first claim on Taihang engine production. This J-11 may prove to be a more important combat aircraft than the J-10 in terms of performance. But perhaps because it is largely based on a foreign Russian design, it will not be given the same "debut" party as the J-10.

The J-10s future, especially its export prospects, are tied to the Taihang engine. For example, Chengdus smaller FC-1 Fierce Dragon fighter, which is part of a major co-development and co-production agreement with Pakistan, has been bedeviled by Indian pressure on Russia not to sell its rival the Russian-made Klimov RD-93 engines which now power the FC-1. Pakistan is also planning to purchase an initial batch of 36 J-10s, and the Taihang would allow CAC to avoid foreign engine entanglements. 

We Dont Know:

Even by her own standards, China has been rather secretive with respect to the development of the J-10. Evidently the desire was to garner the full publicity value of the unexpected revelation of existing production and in place operational capabilities about which foreigners had hitherto only speculated. Some attempt was probably made as well to divert foreign attention away to major technology indigenization. Now after the debut, there is still much we do not know.

The Chengdu Aircraft Corporation has yet to release its own dimension, weight and performance statistics for the J-10 and twin-seat J-10S. Barring such a release it is not possible to know from open sources or from what may appear to be reasonably sound estimates, what is the real performance of the J-10. Such information remains a state secret.

We do not know how many J-10s the PLA Air Force will purchase. Some analysts estimate the PLAAF may only purchase 300 to 400 J-10s. At the 2003 Moscow Airshow a Russian source gave the author his estimate that total lifetime production for the J-10 could reach 1,200. This number has since been reported in the Department of Defense annual reports to the U.S. Congress on Chinese military modernization. 

Nor do we know how quickly will modified versions emerge, or will the J-10 soon be eclipsed by a new 5th generation fighter.

In early 2005 Chinese sources told the author that "advanced" versions of the J-10 were in development, but would not elaborate.[7] In late 2005 and early 2006 reporting emerged that China was potentially basing new versions of the J-10 on a combination of up-rated and possibly thrust-vectored AL-31FN engines and new active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.[7] Such an upgrade path is quite plausible and follows the example set by other 4th generation fighters now in production. Nevertheless there is no definitive information from CAC on new versions of the J-10. 

At the 2005 Moscow Airshow one Russian source believed that Chinas interest in a thrust-vectored version of the AL-31FN engine was driven primarily by its intention to develop a carrier-capable version of the single-engine J-10. The combination of canard configuration, precise computer controls, and thrust vectoring might indeed allow the J-10 to achieve rather slow landing speeds, a critical factor in carrier operations safety. However, a carrier capable J-10 would require extensive airframe and undercarriage strengthening and modification. In addition this fighter would have to prove significant cost and safety advantages over the carrier-proven twin-engine Russian Sukhoi Su-33, which so far appears to be favored by the PLA for the first Chinese aircraft carrier.

Carrier bound?: Russian sources believe CACs interest in a thrust-vectored version of the AL-31FN is for a new aircraft carrier version of the J-10. The former Russian-Ukrainian carrier Varyag continues to undergo refurbishment in Dalian harbor for an undisclosed military purpose: Credit: RD Fisher, Chinese Internet 


There is also the possibility that in the next decade that the J-10 may become eclipsed by a new 5th generation (4th generation in China) combat aircraft. J-10 program director Liu Gaozhou recently stated that, "we are researching and developing a fourth generation to meet the requirements of defending the motherland."[8] 

A Chinese source disclosed in early 2005 that CAC was considering a program to build a "F-35" class fighter. This would likely mean that CAC is considering stealthy, AESA-radar equipped, internal weapon carrying high performance combat aircraft. It is logical that CAC would consider such a "lightweight" fighter project, inasmuch as Shenyang seems to be building "heavy" fighters. Nevertheless, brochures from the 601 Design Institute, usually associated with CAC, appear to indicate they are considering a "heavy" twin-engine 5th generation design that may be in competition with Shenyangs longstanding 5th generation fighter program. However, Shenyangs revelation of an advanced forward-swept wing but single-engine 5th generation fighter concept at the recent 2006 Zhuhai Airshow, may mean it also is aiming for an affordable next-generation design.


Conclusion

All indications are that China has successfully completed the development and commenced deployment of a competitive 4th generation combat aircraft, that when modified with better engines and AESA radar, perhaps in the near-term, will provide the PLAAF and its clients with a multi-role combat aircraft competitive with advanced versions of the F-16C/D Block 50+ and the Boeing F/A-18E/F. Even with advanced features, the J-10 will be sure to beat the U.S. fighters in terms of price, which offers the chance of real success in the market. There are indications it could sell for between $25 and $40 million, much better than the $60 million Chile recently paid for F-16s.

Furthermore, as Liu Gaozhou and other Chinese press reports have elaborated, the J-10 and J-11 indigenization programs have allowed China to give a relatively young cadre of aircraft, engine, component and weapons engineers their first taste of success. Having mastered the initial version of the J-10 and its many subsystems, it should not take long for upgraded models to follow, and this broad experience can be expected to accelerate progress on 5th generation combat aircraft programs.

This is not good news for any of Chinas neighbors: not for Japan, or Korea, or for Taiwan, which was just had its request for a small number of new F-16 Block 50s rebuffed by Washington. Nor is it good news for India, once the J-10 lands in Pakistan. Middle Eastern and Latin American countries may prove interested as well. This news will disappoint Russians who had looked to a steady stream of Chinese purchases to fund their own advanced aircraft development. Finally, this not good news for the United States, which will now require far more than the U.S. Air Forces currently planned 182 Lockheed-Martin F-22, the only 5th generation fighter available to the U.S. which offers decisive superiority over the J-10 and J-11. Nor can the U.S. cannot rest on its laurels. China should not be expected to take another 20 years to unveil its 5th generation fighter designs.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] A Chinese television story based on AVIC-1 video footage has been recorded on Google Video: J-10 or Fighter-10 aircraft

[2] The J-10 is the cover story for at least four Chinese popular military issue magazines for this month; also see "Chinese Fighter Makes Debut," Xinhua, January 5, 2007. 

[3] For Chinese language coverage of the J-10 to include interviews with members of the design team, see the special J-10 web page at Sina.com http://jczs.news.sina.com.cn/nz/j10/index.shtml; also see, Wang Jianjun, "F-10 Displays Its Military Might," Liaowang, January 8, 2007, p. 12-13.

[4] Video coverage from CCTV.com in English: http://www.cctv.com/video/NewsHour/2007/01/NewsHour_128_20070106_2.shtml; also see, "China Indigensous 3rd Generation Jian-10 (J-10) Makes Debut," CCTV.com, CCTV International

[5] The best examination of the Lavi as a crisis in Israeli-U.S. relations remains, Dov S. Zakheim, Flight of the Lavi, Washington: Brasseys, 1996. 

[6] Interview, London, May 2005; also reported by author in Chengdu News, Air Forces Monthly, October 2005, p. 22..

[7] Ibid.

[8] Henry Ivanov, "China working on Super-10 advanced fighter," Janes Defence Weekly, January 11, 2006.

[9] Wang, op-cit.


_interesting read of a 2007 article. for PK, the resolution of the 'engine' issue will pave the way for the induction of this aircraft._

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## Edevelop

Is this pic real? Will J-10B take this many hard points?

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## nwmalik

armed to the teeth!


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## P4K1ST4N

cb4 said:


> Is this pic real? Will J-10B take this many hard points?



yes, but i think its prototype.


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## P4K1ST4N



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## Beast

cb4 said:


> Is this pic real? Will J-10B take this many hard points?



Fake photo!



fatman17 said:


> Chinas J-10 Jet Fighter: How Much Do We Know?
> 
> 
> by Richard Fisher, Jr.
> 
> Published on January 16th, 2007



Terrible old post from Richard Fisher Jr... Seems to have full of bias. But his tone seems has changed now after J-20 has launched.


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## Nishan_101

If there are 50 planned for each block then how a fleet of 400 would be completed???
150 JF-17s all blocks.
50 J-10Bs
59 F-16s old
18 F-16s new

277 Aircraft!!!

So are there any plans to buy 52 F-16s Block-52s???? along with older F-16s


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## razgriz19

Nishan_101 said:


> If there are 50 planned for each block then how a fleet of 400 would be completed???
> 150 JF-17s all blocks.
> 50 J-10Bs
> 59 F-16s old
> 18 F-16s new
> 
> 277 Aircraft!!!
> 
> So are there any plans to buy 52 F-16s Block-52s???? along with older F-16s



the fleet will stay around 300-320.
im pretty sure PAF will not go for more than 36 J-10 (if they ever get one first of all)
we have 60 something f-16s, but more emphasis will be given to thunder
the number will go up to 200.


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## Farooqi1

Storm Force said:


> Eventual requirement MEANS NOTHING........
> 
> this figure of 150 j10/fc20 has been made up by PDF members as the necsssary nos required to face off 126 mmrca
> 
> NO MENTION OF 150 FC20 has been EVER made by PAF or a offical spokesman.
> 
> INFACT some PDF members believe EVEN the proposed order of 36 is not yet concrete.
> 
> This 150 STATEMENT IS A LITTLE LIKE INDIANS SUGGESTED IAF need 52 fighter sdqs by 2025 to face dual PLAAF OR PAF threat. OR that one day IAF will field 300 FGFA
> 
> In other words just hearssay.
> 
> STICK TO GROOUND REALITY
> 
> WAT HAVE PAF really ordered if any ??????/





Ground realty is you have the fastest growing AIDS population. Ground realty is 65% of population can't even take a dump in privacy. Ground realty is the streets of Calcata and Bombay are filled with people sleeping on footpaths.Ground reality is Ghaury, Abdali, Shaheen, Ghaznavi, Raad, Babur Nsar will be exploding on your $50 billion purchases bacha. wake up and smell the s***.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

300 JF17 Thunder 
100 F16
150 J10B 

Pakistan's force to be reckoned with


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## Farooqi1

rockstar said:


> Yes, but only once..



Common man don't be jealous. It is your arrogance who will bring you down.


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## alimobin memon

Chinese sources claim j10 can do Cobra Manuever , does J10 carry TVC? if not . How the hell does it do?


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## Nishan_101

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 300 JF17 Thunder
> 100 F16
> 150 J10B
> 
> Pakistan's force to be reckoned with


300 JF-17s Block-I/II/III with composties and advanced weapons.
70 Fc-20s PAC
59 F-16s old this is the force that will be reckon with till 2020


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## saad.94

We should go for j-11


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## fjavaid

saad.94 said:


> We should go for j-11


 
Dual Tail Fighters may not fall into PAFs way of doing business but every thing has its "first Time" ... J11s will be very suitable for navel Defence & Air superiority as J11s are being heavily modified & upgraged with AESA , IRST indigenous engine, Composites and these are coming on par with SU-35


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## Beast

alimobin memon said:


> Chinese sources claim j10 can do Cobra Manuever , does J10 carry TVC? if not . How the hell does it do?



There is no need TVC to do cobra.. A Canard design is more than enough to execute it.

Lei Qiang, the test pilot of J-10 testify for that...

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## air marshal

*J-10B Vigorous Dragon*

The latest 1035 prototype of the J-10B (K/JJ10B?) was photographed at CAC airfield in July 2011, revealing the indigenous WS-10B (?) turbofan engine. This much improved variant (1031 prototype) made its maiden flight on December 23, 2008, powered by a Russian AL-31FN engine. The improvements include a DSI/bump engine inlet which not only cuts weight but also reduces RCS, after a similar design was first tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. The aircraft also features a J-11B style IRST/LR and a wide-angle holographic HUD. IRST allows passive detection of enemy aircraft, making J-10B more stealthy in combat. Its nose appears flatter too, similar to that of American F-16, housing fire-control radar which could be an X-band AESA developed by the 14th Institute (track 10, engage 4 simultaneously), the first of such type ever being developed for a Chinese fighter aircraft, giving J-10B a stronger multi-target engagement and ECCM capability. An ECM antenna can also be seen ahead of the canard foreplane. Two large pods housing testing equipments were attached under the wings. The tip of vertical tailfin was redesigned as well, featuring a large fairing containing communication and ECM antennas, which resembles that of French Mirage 2000. A rear facing MAWS sensor can be seen underneath the parachute boom. A similar system was tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. RAM coating is also expected in certain areas such as engine inlet and wing leading edges to reduce RCS. The aircraft may be fitted with CFTs in the future to further extend its range. All these improvements suggest that J-10B is equipped with a new generation of integrated electronic system, ranging from radar to EW system. Its mission may be changed from air-superiority to multi-role, such as CAS or EW. For air-superiority mission, normally 6 AAMs (PL-12x4 + PL-8x2, PL-12s are carried underneath the twin-rail launch pylon) can be carried. For CAS mission, normally 2 KD-88 AGMs or LS-500J LGBs can be carried. In addition, the aircraft is expected to be powered eventually by a WS-10B turbofan. Overall J-10B is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60. The 03 prototype first flew in August 2009, with the pitot tube removed from the nose tip. Both 1031 & 1034 prototypes are currently being tested at CFTE. J-10B is likely to serve as a testbed for various advanced technologies adopted by the 4th generation J-20 (see below) currently under development at CAC thus may not enter the service in large quantity with PLAAF. The production of J-10B is expected to be imminent (07 batch?). The initial batches are likely to be powered by Russian AL-31FN engines due to the low productivity rate of WS-10B. A further upgraded semi-stealth variant (J-10C?) might be developed as well but no details are available. 

- Last Updated 3/5/12

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## manofwar

gessler said:


> The real ground reality is that your Ghauri is nothing but a modified north korean nodong-1, Abdali is
> a pakistan-painted chinese m-11 MRBM...shaheen/ghaznavi/nasr have guidance and gyroscopic technologies
> are all years behind those used on the Agni-2 Prime...babur is a simple tomahawk copy (but damn...eventhough
> tom. can reach out to 2500km, babur's max range is only 750km!), ra'ad..well, you ought to research some
> reliable info, ra'ad's accuracy/CEP coupled with the glide profile are by far one of the worst air launched cruise
> missiles i've ever heard of.
> 
> "Wake up and smell the s***"...??? Hmm...if your "s***" meant all your missiles of 70s and 80s tech, we've
> all been smelling it for years, and completely unimpressed by your stagnating unability to build a mere IRBM
> of ATLEAST 3500km range minimum, while we would test-fire our ICBMs soon enough...wake up and smell
> the fragrence


never troll back...let the other guy show his stupidity and mentality....




Farooqi1 said:


> Ground realty is you have the fastest growing AIDS population. Ground realty is 65% of population can't even take a dump in privacy. Ground realty is the streets of Calcata and Bombay are filled with people sleeping on footpaths.Ground reality is Ghaury, Abdali, Shaheen, Ghaznavi, Raad, Babur Nsar will be exploding on your $50 billion purchases bacha. wake up and smell the s***.


Didn't actually answer the question , I notice.....



gessler said:


> Well, do you really think any single saudi arms deal would run into $20 billions?? Do you think saudis would
> purchase 126 (could grow to 200) fighter jets from aboard at a single deal? No, they cant. Another thing is,
> not only the competing six companies but also various other countries like Brazil, UAE, Oman etc. were
> keenly watching the M-MRCA decision, to see if they can employ the same procedure to select combat
> planes for purchase, the saudi deals aren't looked upon with such great earnest, especially because
> if their deals are basically managed/corrupted by the kings.
> 
> --
> 
> We dont disagree that negotiations for FC-20 are ongoing, but nothing is OFFICIALLY CONFIRMED, like,
> for instance, the exact number of aircraft that would be purchased, or on what variant of J-10 (A/B) the
> FC-20 would be based on. Whereas in the M-MRCA, the 126 planes purchase is CONFIRMED officially, there's
> no doubt, the thing that remained to be sorted out until recently was WHICH aircraft would be purchased,
> as it is a competitive tender, not HOW MANY, WHEN, or WHETHER the purchase will take place or not, which
> is the case of the FC-20 deal, which is direct govt-to-govt deal, no tender.


That is exactly why the aquisitions do not get delayed in Pakistan and China...they keep the negotiations hushed up until one day suddenly they release a date and the info when the everything is confirmed.....


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## Gessler

manofwar said:


> That is exactly why the aquisitions do not get delayed in Pakistan and China...they keep the negotiations hushed up until one day suddenly they release a date and the info when the everything is confirmed.....



Yes, they never tell the exact dates...cause they themselves are not sure of anything, but if the negotiating
stand is compromised, it's always a long story, for example they were negotiating with china for frigate ships
(like f22p) since the 90s...but actually got them only in mid to late 2000s.

Talking of china's better infrastructure, they should've built the ships much quicker, f22p is not such
a specialised frigate either...but however a lot of time was taken because of various problems in
negotiation and etc.


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## araz

gessler said:


> Yes, they never tell the exact dates...cause they themselves are not sure of anything, but if the negotiating
> stand is compromised, it's always a long story, for example they were negotiating with china for frigate ships
> (like f22p) since the 90s...but actually got them only in mid to late 2000s.
> 
> Talking of china's better infrastructure, they should've built the ships much quicker, f22p is not such
> a specialised frigate either...but however a lot of time was taken because of various problems in
> negotiation and etc.



Negotiations take as long as they have to. You aught to know better having seen the pace of Indian MMRCA trials and selection. If I may say it is still not finalized. Pakistan unlike you has additional problems with its financing which requires additional negotiations. The last thing which I need to say is that you can bet your bottom dollar, PAF will not announce the FC20 deal till such time that the Indian MMRCA deal with the specs of the choice(Rafale in this case) is out. If you are half as wise as I think you are, you will work out the reasons. Technically we are at the same stage as you are, negotiating on price and specs. PAF has a habit to change specs from time to time and our chinese friends oblige us for various reasons. It is not without reason that we have a strong contingent of Aeronautical engineers in China. So no, at this time no date can be given and the announcement may come after the Indian MMRCA contract signature.
Araz

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## araz

gessler said:


> The real ground reality is that your Ghauri is nothing but a modified north korean nodong-1, Abdali is
> a pakistan-painted chinese m-11 MRBM...shaheen/ghaznavi/nasr have guidance and gyroscopic technologies
> are all years behind those used on the Agni-2 Prime...babur is a simple tomahawk copy (but damn...eventhough
> tom. can reach out to 2500km, babur's max range is only 750km!), ra'ad..well, you ought to research some
> reliable info, ra'ad's accuracy/CEP coupled with the glide profile are by far one of the worst air launched cruise
> missiles i've ever heard of.
> 
> "Wake up and smell the s***"...??? Hmm...if your "s***" meant all your missiles of 70s and 80s tech, we've
> all been smelling it for years, and completely unimpressed by your stagnating unability to build a mere IRBM
> of ATLEAST 3500km range minimum, while we would test-fire our ICBMs soon enough...wake up and smell the fragrence...baccha



My friend
The ground reality is you know jack!!! So hush up and listen to people who know things here, that is if you wqant to learn. Keep your hate to yourself!! We can not and are not in comparison with India. We are a separate nation with our own needs which we develop within the confines of our own limitations. At least be man enough to own, that within those parameters we do a very good job.
with regards to develpomental philosophies, there are 2 main ones. India and Pakistan are prime examples of each of them. Thereare different pros and cons to each of them, but the bottom line is, none is necessarily a wrong one. I have elaborated at length that utilizing the same philosophies, we have had successes like Al khalid , and FC17 and various missiles, which may not be as good as the US ones, but will still do the job adequately. Youy too have had a lot of succeses and a few failures. I think it is because technologically you are where china was 1 decade ago. it does not mean that your Tejas is a failure, all it means is that it will eventually get you what you want through a different route. 
Now for the last time stop spamming and have some constructive thinking. God has given you a brain use it positively to benefit all of us as well as your self.
Regards
Araz

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## sancho

air marshal said:


> *J-10B Vigorous Dragon*



Source please!


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## DANGER-ZONE

killerx said:


> stop trolling



PLZ REPORT TROLLS .... HIT




button on relative TROLL post _(Located at left bottom of POST window)_. 
*HELP TROLLS TO GET THEIR VACATIONS* .. 



sancho said:


> Source please!


Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force
happy now.

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## Donatello

Seriously, the quality of new Indian Members is so low, that is is shameful for all of PDF.

Why do they hijack every thread?

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## sancho

Donatello said:


> Seriously, the quality of new Indian Members is so low, that is is shameful for all of PDF.
> 
> Why do they hijack every thread?



It gets even more frustrating, when you have "*senior*" Chinese and Pakistani (tr..) members doing the same as well. So it has nothing to do with new or old, or with the origin, but with the behaviour of certain people. I understand your point, but please don't generalise it!

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## Farooqi1

Donatello said:


> Seriously, the quality of new Indian Members is so low, that is is shameful for all of PDF.
> 
> Why do they hijack every thread?



I don't know what Indians are doing over here. Just to brag may be?

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## ziaulislam

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 300 JF17 Thunder
> 100 F16
> 150 J10B
> 
> Pakistan's force to be reckoned with



simply divide topgun's values by 2 to get the right answer..!


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## isi admirer

ziaulislam said:


> .300 JF17 Thunder
> 100 F16
> 150 J10B .!



just dreaming what should be 
country with 180 million peoples and having gdp of only 180 billion andhis people in fantacies are wishing that their country to be a super power with 150 f16s and bla bla bla 
you will be a souper power witout these things if you gays have economyof 7 trillions and if other people of others countries dream to have your nationalities and students want to come in your country for study 
what happened to russia they had every thing like war planes every thing bt why they where indownfall in could war???????????????????/

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## Ir.Tab.

Pakistan Air Force: 36 on order (As of February 2011) for delivery in 2012, with an eventual requirement for 150.

Source: Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another interesting database: Chinese Military Aircraft - SinoDefence.com


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## ziaulislam

isi admirer said:


> just dreaming what should be
> country with 180 million peoples and having gdp of only 180 billion andhis people in fantacies are wishing that their country to be a super power with 150 f16s and bla bla bla
> you will be a souper power witout these things if you gays have economyof 7 trillions and if other people of others countries dream to have your nationalities and students want to come in your country for study
> what happened to russia they had every thing like war planes every thing bt why they where indownfall in could war???????????????????/


noone of us have dreamed to be a super power..we only want to avoid another 1971..i dont know who gave u that idea!!

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## Storm Force

Thanks to nuclear weapons there will be no 1971 infact THERE WILL BE NO KARGIL either.

I think the hotheads on both sides KNOW this aswell.


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## SBD-3

Storm Force said:


> Thanks to nuclear weapons there will be no 1971 infact THERE WILL BE NO KARGIL either.
> 
> I think the hotheads on both sides KNOW this aswell.


Krgil happened with both sides having nuke capability.................



araz said:


> Negotiations take as long as they have to. You aught to know better having seen the pace of Indian MMRCA trials and selection. If I may say it is still not finalized. Pakistan unlike you has additional problems with its financing which requires additional negotiations. The last thing which I need to say is that you can bet your bottom dollar, PAF will not announce the FC20 deal till such time that the Indian MMRCA deal with the specs of the choice(Rafale in this case) is out. If you are half as wise as I think you are, you will work out the reasons. Technically we are at the same stage as you are, negotiating on price and specs. PAF has a habit to change specs from time to time and our chinese friends oblige us for various reasons. It is not without reason that we have a strong contingent of Aeronautical engineers in China. So no, at this time no date can be given and the announcement may come after the Indian MMRCA contract signature.
> Araz


A while ago, Sir Pervaiz Shamim said that PAF was done with technical negotiations and the price negociations were about to start.

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Donatello said:


> Seriously, the quality of new Indian Members is so low, that is is shameful for all of PDF.
> 
> Why do they hijack every thread?



why the hell are they allowed on a PakisTani forum at the first place ... ???  i never get the reason !

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

kuttay ko kabhi bhi hum apnay bartan men khhaana nahi khhilaa tay ...  

bartan napaak ho jaata hai ... 

guys , i hope that you all get the point ...

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## Edevelop

Is this our J-10 under construction?


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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> My friend
> The ground reality is you know jack!!! So hush up and listen to people who know things here, that is if you wqant to learn. Keep your hate to yourself!! We can not and are not in comparison with India. We are a separate nation with our own needs which we develop within the confines of our own limitations. At least be man enough to own, that within those parameters we do a very good job.
> with regards to develpomental philosophies, there are 2 main ones. India and Pakistan are prime examples of each of them. Thereare different pros and cons to each of them, but the bottom line is, none is necessarily a wrong one. I have elaborated at length that utilizing the same philosophies, we have had successes like Al khalid , and FC17 and various missiles, which may not be as good as the US ones, but will still do the job adequately. Youy too have had a lot of succeses and a few failures. I think it is because technologically you are where china was 1 decade ago. it does not mean that your Tejas is a failure, all it means is that it will eventually get you what you want through a different route.
> Now for the last time stop spamming and have some constructive thinking. God has given you a brain use it positively to benefit all of us as well as your self.
> Regards
> Araz


its not his fault, you wouldnt see a single indian analyst who has ever even remotely considered any weapon in our arsenal to be even remotely indigenous. They think we can only paint things at the most.

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## PakShaheen79

ziaulislam said:


> its not his fault, you wouldnt see a single indian analyst who has ever even remotely considered any weapon in our arsenal to be even remotely indigenous. They think we can only paint things at the most.



And I think we must be glad that they think that way


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## Farooqi1

PakShaheen79 said:


> And I think we must be glad that they think that way



Yes we must be glad and hope that they consider us week. That goes against the conventional wisdom of "Never underestimate your enemy" I really hope that their defence planners have the same thinking. after all that is what they are feeding to their Junta.



MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n;2832500 said:


> kuttay ko kabhi bhi hum apnay bartan men khhaana nahi khhilaa tay ...
> 
> bartan napaak ho jaata hai ...
> 
> guys , i hope that you all get the point ...



Good point Dr. Sahib. But I would let them brag (bark).


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## araz

nomi007 said:


> Nomi 007.
> 
> Would you like to enlighten me as to the purpose of the post above. How have you contributed to the forum?


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## Farooqi1

araz said:


> nomi007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nomi 007.
> 
> Would you like to enlighten me as to the purpose of the post above. How have you contributed to the forum?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Araz Sahib;
> 
> It looks like J-10 shoot down the Airforce One. I am sure you have noticed that too. I agree with you. We should not be posting things like that.
Click to expand...


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## Beast

cb4 said:


> Is this our J-10 under construction?



No, this is a donkey years old photo of J-10 production in China. I think the talk between PAF and CHina over J-10 may have break down since there is not much update of the deal. I believe, differences in prices of the fighter jet might be the problem.

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Farooqi1 said:


> Yes we must be glad and hope that they consider us week. That goes against the conventional wisdom of "Never underestimate your enemy" I really hope that their defence planners have the same thinking. after all that is what they are feeding to their Junta.
> 
> 
> 
> Good point Dr. Sahib. But I would let them brag (bark).



Farooqi bhaiy , my name is MuzammiL so call me Muzammil and i'm not a doctor , i am a textile engineer ; alhamdu LiLLah


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## Donatello

Any updates from any think tank members, on the J-10 with respect to PAF?


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## MastanKhan

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n;2832487 said:


> why the hell are they allowed on a PakisTani forum at the first place ... ???  i never get the reason !




Sir,

Even though the flag is of pakistan----this is a world forum---. The webmaster and admins have visioned that young and older pakistanis need to get the proper exposure of the world and have an oppurtunity in listening to looking at the view points of other nationalities---the most important of them---the indians---and the americans---.

You people will find no other place like this that gives you an oppurtunity to interact with those of opposing view points---they are an asset over here---let us respect their presence. Humanity is a people business---if it is in you---you can reach out and touch someone---if not---please find other venues for your venom---. 

It truly is a priveledge to see the indian members come to this forum as well as americans, afg's, iranian, middle eatern, south asians, israelis, from africa, russia, south america, australia etc---they have taken precious times out of their lives to teach us something about them----whatever it is---this board takes the good with the bad----. The bottomline is that there is more good that comes to this place---as they say the proof is in the pudding---the number of hte members tells it all.

This board is at its zenith due to the diversity of the membership---.

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## SHAHED

what is this ?

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## SBD-3

An article on Chinese Engine Programs.....identifies at least 6 parallal programs in Chinese Aviation Industry

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## Abdul Quddoos

FC-20 DUDE, FC-20 it was.. Don't go the off topic.


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Any updates from any think tank members, on the J-10 with respect to PAF?



the trail is cold and remain cold until the JF-17 program is completed.



Beast said:


> No, this is a donkey years old photo of J-10 production in China. I think the talk between PAF and CHina over J-10 may have break down since there is not much update of the deal. I believe, differences in prices of the fighter jet might be the problem.



no powerplant - it has to be chinese for PAF to induct J-10.


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## Beast

fatman17 said:


> no powerplant - it has to be chinese for PAF to induct J-10.



The WS-10 domestic engine has already completed test and mass production has started for J-11B(Su-27)

One J-10B has tested with domestic engine. From the picture, you can clearly see, its not the Russian AL-31FN engine.






http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/84838-new-j11bs-ws-10-engine-pics.html






I strongly believed engine is not the root of the problem. From what I gather from Chinese forum, heavy schedule plus disagreement over prices causes a some break down on the J-10 talk.


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## fatman17

Beast said:


> The WS-10 domestic engine has already completed test and mass production has started for J-11B(Su-27)
> 
> One J-10B has tested with domestic engine. From the picture, you can clearly see, its not the Russian AL-31FN engine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/84838-new-j11bs-ws-10-engine-pics.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I strongly believed engine is not the root of the problem.



only time will tell - lets wait till 2014.


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## SBD-3

A further Comprehensive Article on Chinese Aviation.....

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## Farooqi1

Some body uploaded a J10 (as FC-20) photo in Pakistan colors in Wiki. The date of upload is April 28th, 2012. The narrative says FC-20 in Air Show in Pakistan. Can some body confirm. Did we already get it?


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## Edevelop

Farooqi1 said:


> Some body uploaded a J10 (as FC-20) photo in Pakistan colors in Wiki. The date of upload is April 28th, 2012. The narrative says FC-20 in Air Show in Pakistan. Can some body confirm. Did we already get it?



You mean this?






Its Photoshopped...


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## Farooqi1

cb4 said:


> You mean this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its Photoshopped...



Thanks you just killed my excitement. But the description says FC-20 in Pakistan Air Show and was uploaded day before yesterday. Also even though anybody could write anything in Wiki but it does say 36 on ordered to be delivered in 2012


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## Farooqi1

cb4 said:


> You mean this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its Photoshopped...


Sorry accidently double posted. Don't know how to delete


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## fatman17

Farooqi1 said:


> Thanks you just killed my excitement. But the description says FC-20 in Pakistan Air Show and was uploaded day before yesterday. Also even though anybody could write anything in Wiki but it does say 36 on ordered to be delivered in 2012



Wiki said that, well that says it all about Wiki info!


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## fatman17

* One J-10B prototype has been tested with a version of the Shenyang-Liming WS-10A turbofan. This fighter may be the basis for the &#8220;FC-20&#8221; version expected to be purchased by Pakistan. *

quoted from hasnains article above, further proof that PAF is waiting for the chinese powerplant to mature before it orders the J-10B.


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> * One J-10B prototype has been tested with a version of the Shenyang-Liming WS-10A turbofan. This fighter may be the basis for the &#8220;FC-20&#8221; version expected to be purchased by Pakistan. *
> 
> quoted from hasnains article above, further proof that PAF is waiting for the chinese powerplant to mature before it orders the J-10B.



I think the prospect of sales as well as the necessity and safety of own power plant are important factors driving the effort ot develop the WS10and ws13.
Araz


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## PakShaheen79

however done that PS job he did it well


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## killerx

why wikipedia is showing the version pakistan is buying from china is J10A and alot of errors on JF17 info to like speed 1.6 it should be 1.8


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## SBD-3

killerx said:


> why wikipedia is showing the version pakistan is buying from china is J10A and alot of errors on JF17 info to like speed 1.6 it should be 1.8


What an innocent question.....why do you guys always run to wikipedia when we have 10000+ posts in this thread on the topic and have a whole information pool thread on JFT?

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## Farooqi1

Hasan or some other senior members

You being a senior member can you help me out to start a new thread or start this Thread yourself.  Putin's Upcoming visit of Pakistan. We should ask for defense help especially in Airforce. We should ask for SU35 . (It is time to get out of this single engine nonsense) Also it is time to get out of US and Wests influence and we should not repeat the mistake of Liquat Ali Khan. It is a distinct possibility but I believe we should maximize Russian President's trip to Pakistan. Hey I even believe we should offer our apology to Russia for our role in Afghan conflict. We did nothing but ruined our country.

I don't know where to post these topics and how to start a thread. But i would appreciate your help


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## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> * One J-10B prototype has been tested with a version of the Shenyang-Liming WS-10A turbofan. This fighter may be the basis for the &#8220;FC-20&#8221; version expected to be purchased by Pakistan. *
> 
> quoted from hasnains article above, further proof that PAF is waiting for the chinese powerplant to mature before it orders the J-10B.



Just one question how long do you think PAF should wait after which it wouldn't even matter if we buy J-10 or not.


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## SBD-3

Farooqi1 said:


> Hasan or some other senior members
> 
> You being a senior member can you help me out to start a new thread or start this Thread yourself.  Putin's Upcoming visit of Pakistan. We should ask for defense help especially in Airforce. We should ask for SU35 . (It is time to get out of this single engine nonsense) Also it is time to get out of US and Wests influence and we should not repeat the mistake of Liquat Ali Khan. It is a distinct possibility but I believe we should maximize Russian President's trip to Pakistan. Hey I even believe we should offer our apology to Russia for our role in Afghan conflict. We did nothing but ruined our country.
> 
> I don't know where to post these topics and how to start a thread. But i would appreciate your help


There is no single engine nonsense kind of stuff. A fighter procurement decision is not like buying a car or a bike. There are many factors needing a consideration, aside from the platform itself, when a procurment decision is to be made. For example, a significant cost is the setting up of infrastructure for maintainence which needs not only a comprehensive training program for personnel but also the industrial/electronic facilities to maintain the aircraft.In fact, this factor is increasingly becoming more important in military procurments since the militaries accross the globe face strains on their budgets. Why PAF selected F-16s over Grippens? the same factor emerged as an important consideration in decision. Moreover, F-16s offer impressive TWR and load carring capabilities in single engine so does the JFT. In today's technologically driven world, weapons are becoming lighter and smarter with every passing month (Recently US Army has deployed guided precision rockets who would replace the venerable Hellfire- the rocket carries a 4Kg warhead vis-a-vis 21Kg that of hellfire and is almost 10 times more economical, More suitable for engaging targets with minimum collteral damage). The heavier fighters carry two engines for making up for their increased baseline weight and to support heavy loads. Had twin engine been the name of the game, USAF would not have been operating 2000+ single engine F-16s being deployed extensively throughout the world. It would not have been the single most evloved design (like Mig-21). F-16 has all the capabilities (in fact it exceeds in most of the cases) that a double engine fighter would offer. So airforces with size incorporated in war docrtine go for dual engines while the airforces concentrating on capabilities go for capabilities rather than structure.



IceCold said:


> Just one question how long do you think PAF should wait after which it wouldn't even matter if we buy J-10 or not.


As long as it can....
1-Given the security situation remains calm
2-The design is mature enough for her requirements.
If you remembered, when tesion between US-Pak relationships escalated in the aftermath of OBL raid, the procurement of 50JFTs on emergency basis was declared since the security situation required credible deterent in quick time. However, since the waters became clam thereafter, the decision would have been changed for routine induction along the path of evoluation.

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## IceCold

hasnain0099 said:


> As long as it can....
> 1-Given the security situation remains calm
> 2-The design is mature enough for her requirements.
> If you remembered, when tesion between US-Pak relationships escalated in the aftermath of OBL raid, the procurement of 50JFTs on emergency basis was declared since the security situation required credible deterent in quick time. However, since the waters became clam thereafter, the decision would have been changed for routine induction along the path of evoluation.



That might be the case but do keep in mind that any platform requires years of training to fully master and harness its capabilities. Even if we do get on emergency basis, will it serve any purpose.

JF-17 we already have and our pilots are constantly training on it, we have developed the infrastructure for the jet, we can easily absorb more, but will the case be same for J-10, hence my initial question.


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## SBD-3

IceCold said:


> That might be the case but do keep in mind that any platform requires years of training to fully master and harness its capabilities. Even if we do get on emergency basis, will it serve any purpose.
> 
> JF-17 we already have and our pilots are constantly training on it, we have developed the infrastructure for the jet, we can easily absorb more, but will the case be same for J-10, hence my initial question.


EagleHannan once said that there were two evaluation teams working in Chendu over J-10 project, 1)PLAAF evaluation team 2)PAF evaluation team. In fact, a while ago, there was an interview released of a PAF pilot about his experience on J-10.

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## fatman17

IceCold said:


> Just one question how long do you think PAF should wait after which it wouldn't even matter if we buy J-10 or not.



once the JF-17 is fully integrated meaning 150 examples, would the PAF start looking at the J-10B, so around 2014-16 window, same time as india MMRCA.

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## Farooqi1

Hassan

You are absolutely right but somehow my un- scientific mind can not comprehend that how an F-16 (which we have in limited quantities and would not get more given the US back stabing policies) and JFT can defend against more powerfull twine engine aircrafts. I know it will be expensive to have twine engine fighters but nothing more important then the defense of our motherland.

Following is a quote from another posters comments which describe my own feelings and thoughts

"If Pakistan has sensible, literate and intelligent Air Command it should realise by now that real threat can not only come from the Eastern border but is more dangerously present now at the Western front as far West as Israel or more given the aggressive and hostile military presence of USA and NATO and subversive Israeli MOSSAD presence inside Pakistan. 

Pakistan can no longer afford to invest in antiquated stupid but expensive war toys like the F-16 (intelligently rejected by India) with built in tracer bugs and kill buttons and the badly designed overweight JF-17 with Russian under-powered smoky engine.

If it is serious, given the current and the developing defence panorama Pakistan now needs a truly lethal multi-range multi-role Air Force equipped with up to date air craft like F-15, F-18, Eurofighter, Rafale, MIG-31, MIG-35, SU-27, etc., and not more junk like J-10B with very limited capabilities to meet Pakistan EAST-WEST-NORTH-SOUTH increasingly war-prone requirements."

I can't believe that Air Forces of Indonesia, Venezuela and Uganda even have SU30s and what we got?


Instead of 250 JFT and 150 J10B, I would rather have 36 Su30 or SU35 and 36 J11bs. 100 JFT and 36 J10b along with 36 SU 30 and 36 J11b may just cost us the same amount of money but would give us parity (not in numbers but in technology and capabilities) with the modern Air Forces in our region.

And please no more nuclear deterrent. We have enough of that. I beleive God has provided us a chance in the form of Putins visit and we should take advantage of it. Just my opinion.

In my last trip back home (February this year) I had the privilege of meeting and talking to a fine brave pilot of PAF and believe me as per that fine young man morals are down. And I don't blame him. I mean no matter how good of a shooter you are, you don't have much of chance if you only have 9mm Glock and your opposition have a machine gun. 

I am requesting all the forum members to think about it. And let us start a campaign and do what ever we can in our capacity. Write letters emails to PAF and Government etc. May Allaha make us realise that what needed to be done. Nothing is impossible. We just need to believe and do the right thing.


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## fatman17

Wednesday, May 02, 2012

*No typo, J-16 is the Chinese Strike Flanker, Su30 MK2* 

Source: Chinese Navy Commissioned Copy of Russian Fighter


China demonstrated fighter J16 to the press at aircraft factory Shenyang Aircraft Co; it is a copy of Russian Su-30MK2, reports Hong Kong military magazine Kanwa referring to a Chinese authoritative military source. 

This airplane is a copy of Russian fighter Su-30MK2, the batch of them was sold to China early in 2000's, reports Interfax citing the source. 

According to the magazine, Chinese Navy is quite satisfied with performance characteristics of Su-30MK2 fighter. The military asked the Shenyang aircraft factory to copy that fighter with antiship capabilities adapted for Chinese-made missiles. Basically, the fuselage remained the same as J11BS airplane has, said the source. 

The magazine reports that the first batch of 24 fighters J16 had been already constructed. 

Since early 2010, Chinese Navy began to receive the first batch of domestically-designed multirole all-weather fighters J10A which significantly increased technological level of Chinese Navy, reports Kanwa. 

The Chinese military source told to the magazine that "national air force has not received 'cloned' Su-30MK2 yet. Normally, Chinese Navy gets new fighters first. For example, two-seat fighter bomber JH7 joined Air Force only after commissioning into the Navy".


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## abdulbarijan

Farooqi1 said:


> Hassan
> 
> You are absolutely right but somehow my un- scientific mind can not comprehend that how an F-16 (which we have in limited quantities and would not get more given the US back stabing policies) and JFT can defend against more powerfull twine engine aircrafts. I know it will be expensive to have twine engine fighters but nothing more important then the defense of our motherland.
> 
> Following is a quote from another posters comments which describe my own feelings and thoughts
> 
> "If Pakistan has sensible, literate and intelligent Air Command it should realise by now that real threat can not only come from the Eastern border but is more dangerously present now at the Western front as far West as Israel or more given the aggressive and hostile military presence of USA and NATO and subversive Israeli MOSSAD presence inside Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan can no longer afford to invest in antiquated stupid but expensive war toys like the F-16 (intelligently rejected by India) with built in tracer bugs and kill buttons and the badly designed overweight JF-17 with Russian under-powered smoky engine.
> 
> If it is serious, given the current and the developing defence panorama Pakistan now needs a truly lethal multi-range multi-role Air Force equipped with up to date air craft like F-15, F-18, Eurofighter, Rafale, MIG-31, MIG-35, SU-27, etc., and not more junk like J-10B with very limited capabilities to meet Pakistan EAST-WEST-NORTH-SOUTH increasingly war-prone requirements."
> 
> I can't believe that Air Forces of Indonesia, Venezuela and Uganda even have SU30s and what we got?
> 
> 
> Instead of 250 JFT and 150 J10B, I would rather have 36 Su30 or SU35 and 36 J11bs. 100 JFT and 36 J10b along with 36 SU 30 and 36 J11b may just cost us the same amount of money but would give us parity (not in numbers but in technology and capabilities) with the modern Air Forces in our region.
> 
> And please no more nuclear deterrent. We have enough of that. I beleive God has provided us a chance in the form of Putins visit and we should take advantage of it. Just my opinion.
> 
> In my last trip back home (February this year) I had the privilege of meeting and talking to a fine brave pilot of PAF and believe me as per that fine young man morals are down. And I don't blame him. I mean no matter how good of a shooter you are, you don't have much of chance if you only have 9mm Glock and your opposition have a machine gun.
> 
> I am requesting all the forum members to think about it. And let us start a campaign and do what ever we can in our capacity. Write letters emails to PAF and Government etc. May Allaha make us realise that what needed to be done. Nothing is impossible. We just need to believe and do the right thing.



This post of yours indicates of a person's personal preferences, because he wants twin engined aircrafts and considers every thing single engined to be junk...

*Lets look at his options..*
every thing like
- rafale (we were screwed by the french in JFT avionics deal) 
- typhoon (can we afford it)
- F-18,F-15 (wouldn't they have the same "kill switches" genius man) 
- Russian fighters (nothing short of taking a huge risk cuz of Indo-Russian friendship )
*
Then the guy says JF-17 is an overweight underpowered badly designed aircraft...*

-which is precisely why it beat the holy hell out of the aircraft in WVR which was at the time our best (F-16 A/B) 
-A late pilot of JF-17 (dont remember his name) is also on quote of saying T/W ratio is over 1
-Then u had the kilmov poster claiming near 98 KN of thrust for the so called under powered engine

*-So are the SU-30's that badass of an aircraft....hmm lets see here is a basic contradiction in all this*

-The guy says that our *threat is more from USA/NATO* so let me ask this

*"Can 30/35 SU-30's or even SU-35's can do something against a fleet of thousands of aircrafts from NATo/US that can match it capability wise and technology wise??"*

then he goes about saying J-10B is junk well the same junk (infact i*nferior junk J-10A) was whooping SU-27/ J-11's arse in exercises which the poster himself recommended that we should get....
*
So basically the entire conclusion is 

*New twin engined aircrafts for the poster u quoted are like a wet dream and he will step over every line , even reasoning to write in favor of them neglecting every constraint like cost and sanction prone and all....*

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## Windjammer

China has officially pitched it's Chengdu J-10 fighter to Pakistan. The Pakistan Army Chief of General Staff was reportedly offered the fighter during a visit to China. A Pakistani delegation made a previous visit to the J-10 production line in 2006. In the same year, the government approved a purchase of 36 examples of the FC-20, a variant proposed for the PAF.

Source: Combat Aircraft.

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## SBD-3

Farooqi1 said:


> Hassan
> 
> You are absolutely right but somehow my un- scientific mind can not comprehend that how an F-16 (which we have in limited quantities and would not get more given the US back stabing policies) and JFT can defend against more powerfull twine engine aircrafts. I know it will be expensive to have twine engine fighters but nothing more important then the defense of our motherland.
> 
> Following is a quote from another posters comments which describe my own feelings and thoughts
> 
> "If Pakistan has sensible, literate and intelligent Air Command it should realise by now that real threat can not only come from the Eastern border but is more dangerously present now at the Western front as far West as Israel or more given the aggressive and hostile military presence of USA and NATO and subversive Israeli MOSSAD presence inside Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan can no longer afford to invest in antiquated stupid but expensive war toys like the F-16 (intelligently rejected by India) with built in tracer bugs and kill buttons and the badly designed overweight JF-17 with Russian under-powered smoky engine.
> 
> If it is serious, given the current and the developing defence panorama Pakistan now needs a truly lethal multi-range multi-role Air Force equipped with up to date air craft like F-15, F-18, Eurofighter, Rafale, MIG-31, MIG-35, SU-27, etc., and not more junk like J-10B with very limited capabilities to meet Pakistan EAST-WEST-NORTH-SOUTH increasingly war-prone requirements."
> 
> I can't believe that Air Forces of Indonesia, Venezuela and Uganda even have SU30s and what we got?
> 
> 
> Instead of 250 JFT and 150 J10B, I would rather have 36 Su30 or SU35 and 36 J11bs. 100 JFT and 36 J10b along with 36 SU 30 and 36 J11b may just cost us the same amount of money but would give us parity (not in numbers but in technology and capabilities) with the modern Air Forces in our region.
> 
> And please no more nuclear deterrent. We have enough of that. I beleive God has provided us a chance in the form of Putins visit and we should take advantage of it. Just my opinion.
> 
> In my last trip back home (February this year) I had the privilege of meeting and talking to a fine brave pilot of PAF and believe me as per that fine young man morals are down. And I don't blame him. I mean no matter how good of a shooter you are, you don't have much of chance if you only have 9mm Glock and your opposition have a machine gun.
> 
> I am requesting all the forum members to think about it. And let us start a campaign and do what ever we can in our capacity. Write letters emails to PAF and Government etc. May Allaha make us realise that what needed to be done. Nothing is impossible. We just need to believe and do the right thing.


Remember not every poster has the indepth understanding of issues at hand. In economics we use an interesting phrase "not all models are correct, but some are useful", replicate this here and you ll understand. 
Regarding F-16, I have recently posted an article on how the vintage platforms like F-15, F-16 and F-18 have been able to stay relevent in the wake of technological evoluation and their outlook. (Thread is F-16 discussions II).
Thirdy, do see his post record for judging the quality of his posts. Making a statement is not difficult at all, but defending one is hell lot more.



Windjammer said:


> China has officially pitched it's Chengdu J-10 fighter to Pakistan. The Pakistan Army Chief of General Staff was reportedly offered the fighter during a visit to China. A Pakistani delegation made a previous visit to the J-10 production line in 2006. In the same year, the government approved a purchase of 36 examples of the FC-20, a variant proposed for the PAF.
> 
> Source: Combat Aircraft.


Is it recent? cuz I can recall that one the occasion of visit of JCOSC wayen sahib, J-10B's squadron was officially offered
Chinas J-10B fighter to Pak worries India - India - DNA
China to give squadron of J-10B fighters to Pakistan | China Military Power Mashup


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## Windjammer

hasnain0099 said:


> Is it recent? cuz I can recall that one the occasion of visit of JCOSC wayen sahib, J-10B's squadron was officially offered



The news appears in the latest issue of the Magazine, which incidentally came out today.

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## sancho

Windjammer said:


> China has officially pitched it's Chengdu J-10 fighter to Pakistan. The Pakistan Army Chief of General Staff was reportedly offered the fighter during a visit to China. A Pakistani delegation made a previous visit to the J-10 production line in 2006. In the same year, the government approved a purchase of 36 examples of the FC-20, *a variant proposed for the PAF.*
> 
> Source: Combat Aircraft.



Any detailes about the changes or the fighter at all?


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> *Any detailes about the changes or the fighter at all*?



None as of yet, Since only a Letter of Intent exists and not a concrete Tender. Till then , only speculations can be made based on what is heard on the grapevine.

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## ptltejas

One question is raised I dont know whether previously discussed or not?

which plane is best F-16 or J-10.


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## Pak47

ptltejas said:


> One question is raised I dont know whether previously discussed or not?
> 
> which plane is best F-16 or J-10.



F-16 has many versions, need to be more specific.
The version Paf is getting J10B (Fc-20) is more comparable to Eurofighter, F-16 block 60 standard.
Regards, Pak47.


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## abdulbarijan

ptltejas said:


> One question is raised I dont know whether previously discussed or not?
> 
> which plane is best F-16 or J-10.



Its been raised several times and likewise its been answered several times and when you say* "for PAF" in specific than its definitely J-10 ...*
Technologically its shows alot of promise and it would definitely be on par or above the Block 50/52 we have 
(note: Dont get mad at me i said on par just to be on the safe side)


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## Luftwaffe

ptltejas said:


> One question is raised I dont know whether previously discussed or not?
> 
> which plane is best F-16 or J-10.


 
The question is blasphemy.

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## Donatello

Storm Force said:


> PAK 47
> 
> Typhoon is far superior to F16/60 in airframe design and engine technology.
> 
> It also has far more agility, speed,, and overall power being twin engined versis single engine.
> 
> Finally it has a much lower RCS.
> 
> f16/60 ONLY matches typhoon on weapons range and load and superior AESA radar.
> 
> IF FC20 matches TYPHOON i would be shocked it is 2nd only to F22 today by most aviation articles globally.



Storm Force you are back to your old habit of trolling?

I am reporting this non-sense of yours.

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## Pak47

Storm Force said:


> PAK 47
> 
> dont read to much into excercises ALONE IAF MIG21 visons beat F15C of USA
> 
> READ THE SPECS, read the technology, understand what new technology euro canaards bring to the table.
> 
> The europeans are a decade a head of both CHINA & RUSSIA in sensor fusion, ECM and electronic warefare... AND aesa radar technology.
> 
> Frances RAFALE carries spectra EW system with a NOW a Aesa version of their RBE2 PESA radar...
> 
> Engine technology europeans are more than a decade ahead with both EJ200 and latest snecma carrying hi end technology and western ease of maintenance and high service rates..
> 
> For the record both RUSSIA & china ARE DECADE behind in both.
> 
> PAK 47 ask yourself this simple question WHY HAVE INDIA just ditched the RUSSIANS for France Israel & USA for multi billion $$$ defense deals last 5 years....



did you even read the rules of your engagement with the F-15's? Lol..
I'm not saying eurofighter is a bad plane.. no doubt its one of the best. I'm just saying don't underrate the Fc-20 when its designed to take on the Indian MRCA.

As far as ditching the Russians whats T-50 then? Any country can buy from another if they have decent ties, and have the cash.. Whats your point?..


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## TOPGUN

Donatello said:


> Storm Force you are back to your old habit of trolling?
> 
> I am reporting this non-sense of yours.



Yes plzz report the sucker he will never ever change nor will his haterd for Pakistan i say ban his a$$ for good for ever striaght to troll land lolz.

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## Manticore

ptltejas said:


> One question is raised I dont know whether previously discussed or not?
> 
> which plane is best F-16 or J-10.



rafales canards are at a different place as compared to eurofighters.position of the canards in lavi was also different.. j10's canards are somewhere in the middle ... j10's design will ofcourse be exploited by the pilots for specific roles once we receive 'em
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...houldve-invested-more-j-10s-6.html#post365392


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## Storm Force

I have suggested that euro fighter tech to be superior to russian and chinease tech and that western systems are less maintanence issues... this is not trolling and calling for a ban is way over the top boys. Esp dontella and top gun

Ps i.did not mention pakistan in any post top.gun so relax plz

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## Donatello

Storm Force said:


> I have suggested that euro fighter tech to be superior to russian and chinease tech and that western systems are less maintanence issues... this is not trolling and calling for a ban is way over the top boys. Esp dontella and top gun
> 
> Ps i.did not mention pakistan in any post top.gun so relax plz



Look Storm force,

You do troll. You come up with your posts that have no factual backing. I noticed an improvement in your posts after you came back, but seriously man, use your brain!!

...and my name here is Donatello, not dontella.............shows how much reading power you have.

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## Farooqi1

TOPGUN said:


> Yes plzz report the sucker he will never ever change nor will his haterd for Pakistan i say ban his a$$ for good for ever striaght to troll land lolz.



Fully agree with you. all they want to do is brag

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## Farooqi1

abdulbarijan said:


> This post of yours indicates of a person's personal preferences, because he wants twin engined aircrafts and considers every thing single engined to be junk...
> 
> *Lets look at his options..*
> every thing like
> - rafale (we were screwed by the french in JFT avionics deal)
> - typhoon (can we afford it)
> - F-18,F-15 (wouldn't they have the same "kill switches" genius man)
> - Russian fighters (nothing short of taking a huge risk cuz of Indo-Russian friendship )
> *
> Then the guy says JF-17 is an overweight underpowered badly designed aircraft...*
> 
> -which is precisely why it beat the holy hell out of the aircraft in WVR which was at the time our best (F-16 A/B)
> -A late pilot of JF-17 (dont remember his name) is also on quote of saying T/W ratio is over 1
> -Then u had the kilmov poster claiming near 98 KN of thrust for the so called under powered engine
> 
> *-So are the SU-30's that badass of an aircraft....hmm lets see here is a basic contradiction in all this*
> 
> -The guy says that our *threat is more from USA/NATO* so let me ask this
> 
> *"Can 30/35 SU-30's or even SU-35's can do something against a fleet of thousands of aircrafts from NATo/US that can match it capability wise and technology wise??"*
> 
> then he goes about saying J-10B is junk well the same junk (infact i*nferior junk J-10A) was whooping SU-27/ J-11's arse in exercises which the poster himself recommended that we should get....
> *
> So basically the entire conclusion is
> 
> *New twin engined aircrafts for the poster u quoted are like a wet dream and he will step over every line , even reasoning to write in favor of them neglecting every constraint like cost and sanction prone and all....*



Your reply just proves one thing. Realty is settling in. Read some more please (of course I am saying this respectfully) You are going to pitch JFT against Rafales? and MKI? If this is the plan then waqi Pakistan Ka Khuda Hafiz.


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## MastanKhan

abdulbarijan said:


> This post of yours indicates of a person's personal preferences, because he wants twin engined aircrafts and considers every thing single engined to be junk...
> 
> *Lets look at his options..*
> every thing like
> - rafale (we were screwed by the french in JFT avionics deal)
> - typhoon (can we afford it)
> - F-18,F-15 (wouldn't they have the same "kill switches" genius man)
> - Russian fighters (nothing short of taking a huge risk cuz of Indo-Russian friendship )
> *
> Then the guy says JF-17 is an overweight underpowered badly designed aircraft...*
> 
> -which is precisely why it beat the holy hell out of the aircraft in WVR which was at the time our best (F-16 A/B)
> -A late pilot of JF-17 (dont remember his name) is also on quote of saying T/W ratio is over 1
> -Then u had the kilmov poster claiming near 98 KN of thrust for the so called under powered engine
> 
> *-So are the SU-30's that badass of an aircraft....hmm lets see here is a basic contradiction in all this*
> 
> -The guy says that our *threat is more from USA/NATO* so let me ask this
> 
> *"Can 30/35 SU-30's or even SU-35's can do something against a fleet of thousands of aircrafts from NATo/US that can match it capability wise and technology wise??"*
> 
> then he goes about saying J-10B is junk well the same junk (infact i*nferior junk J-10A) was whooping SU-27/ J-11's arse in exercises which the poster himself recommended that we should get....
> *
> So basically the entire conclusion is
> 
> *New twin engined aircrafts for the poster u quoted are like a wet dream and he will step over every line , even reasoning to write in favor of them neglecting every constraint like cost and sanction prone and all....*



Hi,

Sir---there are some errors in your post---it was not france that did it in to pakistan---it has been pakistan that has deceived france time and again over major defence weapons and civilian aircraft purchases.

In the rest of your post---you are just talking about one or two pakistani pilots statements for what a jf17 can do---plus how the J10 has been thrashing the su27's J11's arse in excercises---etc etc etc. 

F16 has been the work horse for the world air forces----the jf 17 of the 21st century just performed close to or better than the 1960's technology F16-----but then not engine wise----. Is this something really to brag about----. I mean to say---you are not cooking rice in a big pot---where you have to test just a single grain to see if it is done----then by default all the older F16's are done.

Plus the enemy doesnot have F16's either---so what are we competeing against.

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## abdulbarijan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sir---there are some errors in your post---it was not france that did it in to pakistan---it has been pakistan that has deceived france time and again over major defence weapons and civilian aircraft purchases.
> 
> In the rest of your post---you are just talking about one or two pakistani pilots statements for what a jf17 can do---plus how the J10 has been thrashing the su27's J11's arse in excercises---etc etc etc.
> 
> F16 has been the work horse for the world air forces----the jf 17 of the 21st century just performed close to or better than the 1960's technology F16-----but then not engine wise----. Is this something really to brag about----. I mean to say---you are not cooking rice in a big pot---where you have to test just a single grain to see if it is done----then by default all the older F16's are done.
> 
> Plus the enemy doesnot have F16's either---so what are we competeing against.



-We deceived France..hmm could u elaborate more?

-and I dont remember it being 60's tech cuz it came out in the mid 70's

-Thirdly sir the manufacturer of JF-17 did not have the experience of lock heed or Sukhoi or Dassault or Migkoyan for that matter

*-Bringing a cost effective fighter that could fill in numbers while having better avionics (only second to blk-52) and maneuverability on par with F-16 A/B is indeed a huge achievement regardless of what you believe.. 
*

-Fourthly take a look at what JF-17 is replacing,its nearly over a generation better than what its replacing, and pilots are quite happy of it...

Just an example


> This was posted by Crobato, a very senior Chinese member renowned for his expert opinions and analysis. His analysis of an article published by Chinese magazine are as follows:
> 
> Some of the highlights on the test pilot article.
> 
> "The maneuverability has a profound effect on me. This is one extremely nimble plane". He says when you pull the stick on the J-7, you can only pull it gradually so you can hold the proper angle of attack. The radius of turn is wide and the maneuverability is not good. On the FC-1, if you pull the stick, you can pull all the way in and get a very big instantaneous turn rate. Due to a quad Fly-by-wire, turn rate of this fighter is just remarkable. (something we witnessed in squadron induction ceremony)
> Then the Chinese pilot asked PAF pilot how JF-17's maneuverability compares with F-16? PAF pilot said jf-17 maneuvers better. Then, PAF pilot asked Chinese pilot (who flew F-16 in UK before) the same question, he said they are probably similar. Then, he also said that this maneuverability is just for when it is horizontal and that F-16 is still slightly better for vertical (climb rate) due to superior T/W ratio. Then he talked about the cockpit with the 1 HUD and 3 MFDs. He said that it's like the ones on Gripen and F-18. The MFD gives pilots a really easy interface to work with. each one has 20 buttons to select different information. This allows the pilot to keep his head on flying the aircraft. Then he talked about how China's cockpit and MFD is much further ahead than the Russian ones and the Russians were surprised.
> 
> He says or agrees that the FC-1 has superior horizontal maneuverability over the F-16A (maneuvering in the horizontal plane). However due to inferior thrust to weight ratio, the F-16 still has the advantage on the vertical plane.
> Avionics are very advanced and pilot workload is easier than any Chinese or even Russian plane at the moment. When compared to the Su-27, the FC-1's horizontal maneuverability easily holds its own, but the vertical maneuverability is inferior than the Flanker. Again thrust to weight ratio is the reason. The FC-1 cannot compare to the Su-27's ultra maneuverability aspects. He explains something here, which is interesting for people to learn. On a mechanically controlled plane like the J-7, you cannot pull the stick all the way through. At transonic speeds, on a delta winged aircraft, the delta can only use a small angle of attack. Once you pull past that limit, you will lose speed, and with it, lift, and the nose of the aircraft goes down. On a fly by wire plane such as the jf-17, you cannot have this problem because the FBW computer processes the inputs and carefully controls the angle of attack.
> 
> *Originally posted by Nabil-05*






Farooqi1 said:


> Your reply just proves one thing. Realty is settling in. Read some more please (of course I am saying this respectfully) You are going to pitch JFT against Rafales? and MKI? If this is the plan then waqi Pakistan Ka Khuda Hafiz.



J-10's,F-16 Block 50/52's + MLU's + upgraded JF-17's 
support these with force multipliers (C4I,SAAB 2K,ZDK-03,SAM cover) and you have a hell of a defensive force...

under COST constraints ... our friend from the east doesn't have the same problem ... when we get over the problem of cost .. maybe then we'll think big ... but for now ... lets just whine over what we couldve done and what our AF would have looked like instead of discussing what should we do NOW ... right..

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Even though the flag is of pakistan----this is a world forum---. The webmaster and admins have visioned that young and older pakistanis need to get the proper exposure of the world and have an oppurtunity in listening to looking at the view points of other nationalities---the most important of them---the indians---and the americans---.
> 
> You people will find no other place like this that gives you an oppurtunity to interact with those of opposing view points---they are an asset over here---let us respect their presence. Humanity is a people business---if it is in you---you can reach out and touch someone---if not---please find other venues for your venom---.
> 
> It truly is a priveledge to see the indian members come to this forum as well as americans, afg's, iranian, middle eatern, south asians, israelis, from africa, russia, south america, australia etc---they have taken precious times out of their lives to teach us something about them----whatever it is---this board takes the good with the bad----. The bottomline is that there is more good that comes to this place---as they say the proof is in the pudding---the number of hte members tells it all.
> 
> This board is at its zenith due to the diversity of the membership---.



permitting indians & amricans on this forum has in any way yielded you guys your above stated benefits/objectives for the pakistani members ... ???

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## sancho

Pak47 said:


> I'm just saying don't underrate the Fc-20 when its designed to take on the Indian MRCA.



FC20/J10 was never designed to take on Indian MRCA, since it is desingned and developed for China's low end and their requirement in first place. If it all PAFs version will have some minor avionics or weapon changes similar to JF 17, but otherwise there won't be any changes. Actually, the ammount of J10B that can be changed, might be even lower, since PAF is only a normal buyer of this fighter, not a partner like at JF 17.
Also, the main problem to compare J10B with other fighters (for example those that were offered in MMRCA) is, that this version is still under development and much of the final configuration and specification is unknown yet. It is true that we shouldn't underestimate it, but also that we shouldn't overestimate it, since it is not a complete new development, but "only" an upgrade of the J10A. J10A is inferior compared to EF Tranche 2, Rafale F3, but might hold it's own in certain areas compared to Gripen C/D, the question is how much more advanced will the new version be and will it be more comparable to the latest European versions.




ANTIBODY said:


> rafales canards are at a different place as compared to eurofighters.position of the canards in lavi was also different.. j10's canards are somewhere in the middle ...



Actually only EF has a different location of the carnads, while all other comparable fighters uses the close coupled canard design. Be it Rafale, J10, Gripen or Flanker versions, they all have the canards behind the cockpit and pretty much above the air intakes. 

http://www.military-today.com/aircraft/j10.jpg

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/pixalzone/Rafale/images/RafaleFairford10-10.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...jpg/800px-SU-30MKI-g4sp_-_edit_2(clipped).jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/JAS_Gripen.jpg


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## Manticore

i had read the design differences based on distance between intakes and cone .. aswell as the hight difference relative to the wing... 2 years back on a different forum.. will post it here.. it was a nice read

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ts-designs-index-2nd-post-28.html#post1590554
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ts-designs-index-2nd-post-26.html#post1562188


*CANARDS*

Modern high-speed aircraft, especially military, are very often equipped with single or compound delta wings. When such aircraft operate at high angles-of-attack, the major portion of the lift is sustained by streamwise vortices generated at the leading edges of the wing. This vortex-dominated flow field can breakdown, leading not only to loss of lift but also to adverse interactions with other airframe components such as the fin or horizontal tail

The performance of a canard design depends strongly on the amount of lift that the canard must carry. This is set by stability and trim requirements.
An analysis of the effects of canard shape, position, and deflection on the aerodynamic characteristics of two general research models having leading edge sweep angles of 25 and 50 degrees is presented. The analysis summarizes findings of three experimental transonic wind-tunnel programs and one supersonic wind-tunnel program conducted at this Center between 1970 and 1974. The analysis is based on four canard geometries varying in planform from a 60-degree delta to a 25-degree swept wing, high aspect ratio canard. The canards were tested at several positions and deflected from -10 to +10 degrees. In addition, configurations consisting of a horizontal tail and a canard with horizontal tails are analyzed. Results of the analysis indicate that the canard is effective in increasing lift and decreasing drag at Mach numbers from subsonic to high transonic speeds by delaying wing separation. The effectiveness of the canard is, however, decreased with increasing Mach number. At supersonic speeds the canard has little or no favorable effects on lift or drag. It is further shown that the horizontal tail is a superior trimming device than the close- coupled canard at low-to-moderate angles of attack and that a configuration consisting of canard, wing, and horizontal tail is superior in performance, to either canard or horizontal tail at high angles of attack.








The Canards in the Lavi have also dihedral but also they are far too close to the wings in fact over them-- The Eurofighter`s are not as close to the wings as those on the Lavi, the position has to do with drag/lift ratio, the best combination is high aspect canards low aspect wings check the Eurofighter has also strakes -- chinese J-10 also the canards are not too far from the wing, however are not so close as those in the Lavi and Rafale, both the Eurofighter and J-10 have the least drag canard delta wing configuration specially good for a fast aircraft -- the Viggen has low aspect wings and canards, these low aspect canards and wing are best configured for high lift



long-coupled canard and close-coupled canards= The two approaches to canard fighter design are more different than the names imply.
In a close-coupled design, the developers were trying to optimize the aerodynamic interaction between the wing and canard, with the objective of improving aircraft lift-to-drag and high angle-of-attack performance. For the Lavi , this means that these airplanes can fly further on less fuel than their conventional counterparts.
In a long-coupled design like the Eurofighter Typhoon or X-31, the developers were trying to minimize the canard-wing interactions, and simplify their aerodynamic design process. They still gain the benefits of improved aerodynamic control at high angles of attack, but they do not see an appreciable improvement in the airplane's lift to drag ratio.
You can tell the difference between the two approaches to canard fighter design, based on how close the canard is positioned to the airplane's wing (measured in mean chord lengths), and also by whether the canard is positioned above or below the wing. On the Lavi, J-10, Kfir, Gripen and Rafale, the canard is positioned just ahead of, and above the wing, to maximize the aerodynamic interaction between the two. On the Typhoon and X-31, the tips of the canard are canted downwards, to ensure that the canard tip vortices are swept below the wing.

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## Farooqi1

abdulbarijan said:


> -We deceived France..hmm could u elaborate more?
> 
> -and I dont remember it being 60's tech cuz it came out in the mid 70's
> 
> -Thirdly sir the manufacturer of JF-17 did not have the experience of lock heed or Sukhoi or Dassault or Migkoyan for that matter
> 
> *-Bringing a cost effective fighter that could fill in numbers while having better avionics (only second to blk-52) and maneuverability on par with F-16 A/B is indeed a huge achievement regardless of what you believe..
> *
> 
> -Fourthly take a look at what JF-17 is replacing,its nearly over a generation better than what its replacing, and pilots are quite happy of it...
> 
> Just an example
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-10's,F-16 Block 50/52's + MLU's + upgraded JF-17's
> support these with force multipliers (C4I,SAAB 2K,ZDK-03,SAM cover) and you have a hell of a defensive force...
> 
> under COST constraints ... our friend from the east doesn't have the same problem ... when we get over the problem of cost .. maybe then we'll think big ... but for now ... lets just whine over what we couldve done and what our AF would have looked like instead of discussing what should we do NOW ... right..



Cost constraints. You hit it right in the middle. Bulls eye. This is in my opinion where the greatest problem lies. When we had cost constraints, we should have gone for the best possible option. We should not have invested in experimental projects. Projects like JFT should have been taken when we would have covered the basic requirements from a defensive point of view. Look at our neighbors. They covered almost every weakness and then they are working on their own product. No doubt JFT is a great achievement but it is far from defending us against Rafale and MKI.


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## abdulbarijan

Farooqi1 said:


> Cost constraints. You hit it right in the middle. Bulls eye. This is in my opinion where the greatest problem lies. When we had cost constraints, we should have gone for the best possible option. We should not have invested in experimental projects. Projects like JFT should have been taken when we would have covered the basic requirements from a defensive point of view. Look at our neighbors. They covered almost every weakness and then they are working on their own product. No doubt JFT is a great achievement but it is far from defending us against Rafale and MKI.



-Similarly you hit the bulls eye too.. *JFT was never meant to take on the higher end fighters...*It was a basic cost effective jet that PAC could produce in numbers with medium tier technological level... Although it outperformed the benchmark set for it but thats a different story altogether...

-Coming to the point that one should cover the base first before being experimental ... I agree however what if you have no choice???

The JFT project begun in the mid 90's when we were under sanctions the only options we had were

*- Gripen* ( not viable cuz of USA parts used in the jet while we were under sanctions)
-*Mig-29 / SU-27* (obviously untrusted due to Indo-Russian relations)
*-Mirage 2000 *( the only viable option but just as sanction prone and the fact that IAF already had it so not a great option to go for even though we were very close in making a deal for it)

*SO NOW THE QUESTION IS WHAT WILL YOU DO TO MINIMIZE THE SANCTION THREAT??*
THE ONLY REAL ANSWERS TO THAT IS 

*-An all weather friend
-Or cash
*
The only all weather friend we have left is China 
and cash...that we dont have

plain and simple however people like to go and say that we could've done that or that and our airforce would've looked like that or that

but the same people are the ones saying
*" PAF didn't learn from the lost decade" which is frankly laughable....*

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## explorer9

we all must maintain the quality of discussion though i am a new member of the forum yet i have been reading the PDF from years one thing i realized that we have very young and immature people in the forum who became senior members "off course" on the basis of no. of posts.

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## Farooqi1

abdulbarijan said:


> -Similarly you hit the bulls eye too.. *JFT was never meant to take on the higher end fighters...*It was a basic cost effective jet that PAC could produce in numbers with medium tier technological level... Although it outperformed the benchmark set for it but thats a different story altogether...
> 
> -Coming to the point that one should cover the base first before being experimental ... I agree however what if you have no choice???
> 
> The JFT project begun in the mid 90's when we were under sanctions the only options we had were
> 
> *- Gripen* ( not viable cuz of USA parts used in the jet while we were under sanctions)
> -*Mig-29 / SU-27* (obviously untrusted due to Indo-Russian relations)
> *-Mirage 2000 *( the only viable option but just as sanction prone and the fact that IAF already had it so not a great option to go for even though we were very close in making a deal for it)
> 
> *SO NOW THE QUESTION IS WHAT WILL YOU DO TO MINIMIZE THE SANCTION THREAT??*
> THE ONLY REAL ANSWERS TO THAT IS
> 
> *-An all weather friend
> -Or cash
> *
> The only all weather friend we have left is China
> and cash...that we dont have
> 
> plain and simple however people like to go and say that we could've done that or that and our airforce would've looked like that or that
> 
> but the same people are the ones saying
> *" PAF didn't learn from the lost decade" which is frankly laughable....*



I agree that JFT was never meant to take on high end fighters. Then the questions come to the mind what is its purpose? How are we going to tackle high end fighters? Obviously God forbid in the time of war our opponent would not consider a matching game. We will be thrown at with the best possible equipment from the other side. I am not arguing with you on the JFT. My concern is we don't have the right equipment and technology. As far as J10B concerns as per the Chinese 
it will be at the most as good as F-16 D block 60.

As far as we could have or should have done this or that that is not my point either. I am suggesting that now is the time to do something which we could have done.

Yes China is the only all weather friend left. Doesn't it say some thing about our failed policies? And that is why I am suggesting a good deep relationship with Russia. This is how this whole debate got started by me if you go back and read all the threads.

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## abdulbarijan

> Farooqi1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that JFT was never meant to take on high end fighters.Then the questions come to the mind what is its purpose? How are we going to tackle high end fighters? Obviously God forbid in the time of war our opponent would not consider a matching game. We will be thrown at with the best possible equipment from the other side. I am not arguing with you on the JFT. My concern is we don't have the right equipment and technology. As far as J10B concerns as per the Chinese
> it will be at the most as good as F-16 D block 60.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Answered again and again it was a *medium tier aircraft to assist the likes of the higher end aircrafts *like Block 52 or J-10B Where the capabilities of JF-17 lack eg less weapon carrying capability, lesser radar range comparing to the MKI or other higher ends...
> * the force multipliers come in to play (SAAB 2000,SAMS,C4I,ZDK-03) and even it out..*
> 
> -Secondly it is *not good to judge something before its revealed*...Take JFT for example a lightweight jet which was branded by some as a *paper jet*, then people were simply calling it a *replacement* and all that
> When it was revealed of how good it performed against the best of PAF (at the time) every one was stunned...
> Gradually you had info pouring in of how good the EW suite was and all that...
> 
> Similarly we are not known of the exact details of how good the J-10B is.. *PAF is no fool ... they know they will have to face the threat of Rafale in the future and they will make their moves in the J-10 accordingly *
> *Just to point out something J-10B was first considered simply as a test bed for J-20....
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as we could have or should have done this or that that is not my point either. I am suggesting that now is the time to do something which we could have done.
> 
> Yes China is the only all weather friend left. Doesn't it say some thing about our failed policies? And that is why I am suggesting a good deep relationship with Russia. This is how this whole debate got started by me if you go back and read all the threads.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That I agree with you 159%...Building relations with countries like Russia,france and all is a great thing but you have to have something appealing from your side..in case of Russia we do have something like that in shape of warm waters...
> 
> *But the end result is this our politicians are just too incompetent for everything else except for making money for themselves...and we as a nation are incompetent on only one thing...getting rid of these arse ***** ...*
Click to expand...

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## Farooqi1

abdulbarijan said:


> -Answered again and again it was a medium tier aircraft to assist the likes of the higher end aircrafts like Block 52 or J-10B Where the capabilities of JF-17 lack eg less weapon carrying capability, lesser radar range comparing to the MKI or other higher ends.... here is where the force multipliers come in to play (SAAB 2000,SAMS,C4I,ZDK-03)
> 
> -Secondly it is not good to judge something before its revealed...Take JFT for example a lightweight jet which was branded by some as a paper jet, then people were simply calling it a replacement and all that
> When it was revealed of how good it performed against the best of PAF (at the time) every one was stunned...
> Gradually you had info pouring in of how good the EW suite was and all that...
> 
> Similarly we are not known of the exact details of how good the J-10B is.. PAF is no fool ... they know they will have to face the threat of Rafale in the future and they will make their moves in the J-10 accordingly
> Just to point out something J-10B was first considered simply as a test bed for J-20....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That I agree with you 159%...Building relations with countries like Russia,france and all is a great thing but you have to have something appealing from your side..in case of Russia we do have something like that in shape of warm waters...
> 
> But the end result is this our politics are just too incompetent for everything else except for making money for themselves...and we as a nation are incompetent on only one thing...getting rid of these arse ***** ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You got that right about idiots we are facing as our leaders. It does say something about us nation as a whole. But this is not the right place to discuss politics. I hope your analysis are correct about JFT and our defensive policy. When I compare what we have and what others have it gets very scary.
> 
> By the way I have seen some of your videos on Youtube. Nice work but not enough time to read the narratives on the screen
Click to expand...


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## sancho

ANTIBODY said:


> i had read the design differences based on distance between intakes and cone .. aswell as the hight difference relative to the wing... 2 years back on a different forum.. will post it here.. it was a nice read...
> 
> long-coupled canard and close-coupled canards= The two approaches to canard fighter design are more different than the names imply.
> In a close-coupled design, the developers were trying to *optimize the aerodynamic interaction between the wing and canard, with the objective of improving aircraft lift-to-drag and high angle-of-attack performance*. ...



They do have some minor differences, but the basic position is always the same, to achieve the mentioned aerodynamic improvements. If slightly in front, behind or directly above the air intakes doesn't make them as different as the EF long coupled canard design.


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## MastanKhan

Farooqi1 said:


> I agree that JFT was never meant to take on high end fighters. Then the questions come to the mind what is its purpose? How are we going to tackle high end fighters? Obviously God forbid in the time of war our opponent would not consider a matching game. We will be thrown at with the best possible equipment from the other side. I am not arguing with you on the JFT. My concern is we don't have the right equipment and technology. As far as J10B concerns as per the Chinese
> it will be at the most as good as F-16 D block 60.
> 
> As far as we could have or should have done this or that that is not my point either. I am suggesting that now is the time to do something which we could have done.
> 
> Yes China is the only all weather friend left. Doesn't it say some thing about our failed policies? And that is why I am suggesting a good deep relationship with Russia. This is how this whole debate got started by me if you go back and read all the threads.



Sir,


Your first para----a shocking statement by the original writer and then on your part as well----your enemy has high end aircraft----you have no high end aircraft----do you believe that you have a choice----.

Did you ever think that just because pakistan team was not ready to take it---they would refuse to face Dennis Lillee---Michael Holding---Jeff Thompson---Courtney Walsh or others with a thunder bolt----.

These are war birds----it is an inherent part of their design to take on the best what the enemy has to put forward---. Now if they cannot take the best of the enemy---because it was not a part of their design---they should not be there in the first place----.

If this is the mindset of the PAF---then they need to be lined up and hanged---. And if this is the mindset of the young pakistani brains---then you know very well why this country has become the proverbial arm-pit of the world.

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## MastanKhan

abdulbarijan said:


> -We deceived France..hmm could u elaborate more?
> 
> -and I dont remember it being 60's tech cuz it came out in the mid 70's
> 
> -Thirdly sir the manufacturer of JF-17 did not have the experience of lock heed or Sukhoi or Dassault or Migkoyan for that matter
> 
> *-Bringing a cost effective fighter that could fill in numbers while having better avionics (only second to blk-52) and maneuverability on par with F-16 A/B is indeed a huge achievement regardless of what you believe..
> *
> 
> -Fourthly take a look at what JF-17 is replacing,its nearly over a generation better than what its replacing, and pilots are quite happy of it...
> 
> Just an example
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-10's,F-16 Block 50/52's + MLU's + upgraded JF-17's
> support these with force multipliers (C4I,SAAB 2K,ZDK-03,SAM cover) and you have a hell of a defensive force...
> 
> under COST constraints ... our friend from the east doesn't have the same problem ... when we get over the problem of cost .. maybe then we'll think big ... but for now ... lets just whine over what we couldve done and what our AF would have looked like instead of discussing what should we do NOW ... right..



Hi,

Oh my children---you are so innocent and ill informed---your lack of knowledge and understanding---it is a tragedy---no world class libraries no foeriegn material to read----.

When the F16 was manufactured in the 70---the basic technology that was implemented in it was of the late 60's----.

The electrnoics technology in these aircraft or current day aircraft is 3 to 5 years behind what is available in the market---any clue why---it is because the aparatus has to be millitary grade----navigation system has to be millitary grade---electronic sensors have to be millitary grade----. It takes time and years to develop millitary grade items.

So---you don't know about pakistan deceiving france---what an I say---I am just tired of repeating it to every new comer.

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## abdulbarijan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Oh my children---you are so innocent and ill informed---your lack of knowledge and understanding---it is a tragedy---no world class libraries no foeriegn material to read----.
> 
> When the F16 was manufactured in the 70---the basic technology that was implemented in it was of the late 60's----.
> 
> The electrnoics technology in these aircraft or current day aircraft is 3 to 5 years behind what is available in the market---any clue why---it is because the aparatus has to be millitary grade----navigation system has to be millitary grade---electronic sensors have to be millitary grade----. It takes time and years to develop millitary grade items.
> 
> *So---you don't know about pakistan deceiving france---what an I say---I am just tired of repeating it to every new comer.*



-By that standard Sir the *technology implemented in the F-22 Raptor/EF-2000 is of the late 80's then??*
Even more shocking the *rafale by the same standards would have the technology level of late 70's and early 80's as for gripen its the early 80's as well*...

- Now I know your next response would be that *"they were modified for present needs" *which is the same thing that happened to the *falcon (Block 50/52/60 and then F-16V)*

-Now as we are discussing JF-17 in all this mess it will come up gradually, *the block I is indeed a good foundation to build on *and the question for the fact that a potential aggressor has higher end fighters..yes they do..but the fact is we not only have to deal with their higher end fighters but also other fighters like (mig-21,Mirage 2k,mig-29 and in huge numbers) *so we need to have fighters that can launch high sortie rates to minimize to an extent their numerical advantage... 
*
-Yes sir I see, all I know was *our decision of going for F-16's while we were in line for M2K's if that is what you consider backstabbing then we did.*But still went for the rose upgrades didn't we??still they screwed us over JFT upgrades..why??
cuz of the ability of India to pay more cash "*paisa bolta hai*" (126 MMRCA deal + M2K upgrades deal)


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## Storm Force

This statement 



> they screwed us over JFT upgrades..why??
> cuz of the ability of India to pay more cash "paisa bolta hai" (126 MMRCA deal + M2K upgrades deal)


 I doubt India HAS that much influence over the french.

THE REAL REASON was PAF unwillingness to pay THE massive over priced FRENCH weapons COST.. its widely accepted that FRENCH equipment although very advanced and very reliable costs twice that of USA and others. 

French have literally raped IAF for $2.2 billion for upgrading and arming 51 mirage2000 to dash 5 standard. ie $40 million each.

PAF wanted the same radar RC400 and same mica BVR system in block 2 thunders SO you can imagine the COST that france will have quoted...


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## ziaulislam

actually india did stopped the french simply by paying way too high for the mirage updates..dont believe me, its common sense they tried their best first to stop the Russians for supplying engines when that didnt worked they stopped the french. Pakistan were to pay 1.1 billion dollars for 50 aircrfts , the norm price but india paid twice with the mirge deal

but by now thunder may have gotten close to the avionics which we would had got anyway due to delays in its induction and speed of Chinese avionics maturation. j-10b will be a very good addition but how many will be inducted will be the real question.

the point being military equipment is 4-5 years behind is true but this is true for all military equipment, meaning that comparing two countries will simply cancel out the effect e.g if french were providing us militery equipment in 2005 that was say the 2000 technology, in 2008 chines were providing us say 2005 technology now even though its 5 years ahead by Chinese norm but may still be slightly inferior to french. *what i mean that the effect is canceled out when comparing different countries so mentioning it is of no significance.*


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## sancho

ziaulislam said:


> actually india did stopped the french simply by paying way too high for the mirage updates..



The best logical way to understand that it has nothing to do with India, but with Pakistans financial situation is the fact, that PAF didn't procured any other western avionics or weapons instead of the French. There are German, British or Italian counterparts as well, but PAF went with Chinese, because they are cheaper and Pakistan gets more favourable loans from China than from Europe.
Also look at the other deals like U214 sub, that was even approved by German security council and still didn't happen. If India had anything to do, they would have rejected the sale in the council and based on politics only, but that wasn't the case. Again, the cheaper Chinese subs and better loan conditions were the better choice for PN.
India has way less influence in such sales wrt Pakistan, but it's an easy way to deny the reality and blame others. 

Wrt Mirage upgrade price, similar costs were quoted for Greek Mirage upgrades as well, so it wasn't much higher especially if you keep in mind that our deal included ToT to do in India. Indian media also made it more sensational than it really was.

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## Farooqi1

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> 
> Your first para----a shocking statement by the original writer and then on your part as well----your enemy has high end aircraft----you have no high end aircraft----do you believe that you have a choice----.
> 
> Did you ever think that just because pakistan team was not ready to take it---they would refuse to face Dennis Lillee---Michael Holding---Jeff Thompson---Courtney Walsh or others with a thunder bolt----.
> 
> These are war birds----it is an inherent part of their design to take on the best what the enemy has to put forward---. Now if they cannot take the best of the enemy---because it was not a part of their design---they should not be there in the first place----.
> 
> If this is the mindset of the PAF---then they need to be lined up and hanged---. And if this is the mindset of the young pakistani brains---then you know very well why this country has become the proverbial arm-pit of the world.



So Mr. Khan What you are suggesting is JFT should be able take on the high end fighters then indeed it is a good news as far as your analysis goes. It means 250+ JFT would be sufficient for our defense and we may not need J10B or other high end fighters. At least this is what mine little brains is thinking right now. 

Or you are suggesting we made a mistake by not designing JFT to take on high end fighters then we have a serious problem. What is your take on J10B? Would that solve our problem? I am really asking for your opinion.


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## MastanKhan

Farooqi1 said:


> So Mr. Khan What you are suggesting is JFT should be able take on the high end fighters then indeed it is a good news as far as your analysis goes. It means 250+ JFT would be sufficient for our defense and we may not need J10B or other high end fighters. At least this is what mine little brains is thinking right now.
> 
> Or you are suggesting we made a mistake by not designing JFT to take on high end fighters then we have a serious problem. What is your take on J10B? Would that solve our problem? I am really asking for your opinion.



Hi,

What I am saying is that pakistan should have killed all the la qaeda escaping from afg----. Pakistanis should have thought about pakistan first after 9/11---none of the high jackers were oakistanis---so where is the bone of contention for pakistan---nobody bashed pakistan in the early stages---as a matter of fact pakistan was a hero---.

So, how did a hero turn into a zero----when you started kissing the ar-se of the friggin yemeni murderer OBL and the egyptian doctor and letting chechen and tajik and fundamentalist fighters start making strikes within pakistan and you did not condemn them and force your govt to kill them---execute them---but you sold your nation and nationalsim for those foreigners---.

Pakistan is full of traitors---ghaddars as they say---and who are the ghaddars---those who raised the solgan of al qaeda and OBL in pakistan---those are the ghaddars who supported the arabs and tajiks---those who named their children after Osama---they are the biggest ghaddars of the country naming them after someone who brought death into afg---who brought death and destruction into pakistan---those are the ghaddars supporting teh agenda of the murderers.

The only intelligent country in this whole episode was---surprisingly----SUDAN----on the first hint of trouble---they kicked the murderer and harbinger of death and destruction Osama, out of their country----and the fools----the pathtic miserable souls---identitiless men of pakistan---they welcome the fourth hroseman with open arms----.

Collin Powell stated in one of his recent addresses that he was surprised that pakistan did not ask for more---which meant that the u s was already in a position to give more----. Instead of acting as a force of one---these fools started running in every whichway direction that they could----.

This paf---it should have had ordered a platform with the first years after 9/11. It should have forced the u s for 2 to 3 sqdrns of the latest blk of F16's in 2002 in lieu of the bases given to the u s---. The u s was ready for it----only the fools in pakistan didnot know how to manipulate the situation to its advantage---.

What pakistan and what the pakistanis have done after 2001---would go down in the anals of history----as the worst strategic blunders in the history of mankind----FROM THE JAWS OF VICTORY INTO THE HELL HOLE OF DEFEAT will have the picture of post 9/11 pakistan----actually post 2007 pakistan----.

Why did the pakistanis make OBL a hero---he had nothing to do with pakistan---he is the reason a million afghans are dead in afg----he is the reason aroubnd 40 thousand pakistanis are dead in pakistan---he is the reason pakistani economy is destroyed---and my ignorant and stu-pid brethren are praises for that lunatic-----. How sick does an nation have to be---how mentally sick the men and young boys of the nation have to be to follow this man who brought death and destruction to a tragic place like afg.

I have stated it many a times over here---I don't know if you know it---the reason PAF did not go on a fast track in the purchase of a european or a u s fighter is that paf assessed that the peace deal with india was imminent and it would be a waste of 5 billon dollars to buy appropriate aircraft by 2004-----.

And the reason india was pushing for peace was that it knew that pakistan was ready to buy a large number of frontline aircraft---that would change the poles in south asia---it was again becoming the darling of the u s---. India was scared sh-itless when the u s rejected the indian offer of bases---. The biggest fear india had was what if pakistan learnt from its past mistakes and made amends in its dealing with the united states and played the role of knocking out al qaeda right at the base----.

India had years of sleepless nights over this issue----but in the end they did not have to worry---because as usual there were many a ziaulislams and abdulbarijans and the likes---so many of the pakistanis---who were busy digging the grave their motherland with a newfound zeal----.

In the end---who gives a fcuk who bombed the twin towers---I didn't do it---my countrymen didn't do it---we don't have the blame---nobody is saying that we did it----the countries who's nationals participated in it---those countries are okay with the u s---and the country pakistan who had no involvement in it----it has become a pariah nation----how could that be possible----.

How stupid a nation and its population has to be---how dumb the civil society of that nation has to be---how grossly out of sync the men of the nation are from reality---the books of history will condemn the pakistans in the same manner as the current day pakistanis condemn the traitors of muslim history----.

So---coming back to the topic----india started playing the kind, friendly and brotherly game---and these goofballz fell into the trap once again---. They stopped the procurement of he most important item to solidify peace---they stopped the purchase of what was the very reason of bringing peace to the sub-continent---a frontline fighter aircraft.

PAf's coffers were full---they had been given the money---till 2005 before the earthquake they did not have the problem paying for the aircraft---. Who would have let the test the grippen for so long---or the rafale---you have to have money and you have to show your funds and ability to pay when you go out testing aircraft.

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## ANG

Hi, I will have to definitely agree with Mr. MK that Pakistan should have asked for more. They blew it! Pakistan did not even ask for debt write-off, simply deferring the paying of loans. How stupid was the government? Even getting debt write-off would have given them more disposable funds. But then again, more loans means more embezzeling opportunities for the politicians, and what do they care if the country will become bankrupt.

However, that is the past. Other than the J-10B, if the PAF has the money, and the J-17, I do not see any choice for the PAF right now. Mr. MK is right, if you go flash 15+B dollars to a western country they will sell you stuff. Money talks!

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## Viper0011.

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What I am saying is that pakistan should have killed all the la qaeda escaping from afg----. Pakistanis should have thought about pakistan first after 9/11---none of the high jackers were oakistanis---so where is the bone of contention for pakistan---nobody bashed pakistan in the early stages---as a matter of fact pakistan was a hero---.
> 
> Collin Powell stated in one of his recent addresses that he was surprised that pakistan did not ask for more---which meant that the u s was already in a position to give more----. Instead of acting as a force of one---these fools started running in every whichway direction that they could----.
> 
> This paf---it should have had ordered a platform with the first years after 9/11. It should have forced the u s for 2 to 3 sqdrns of the latest blk of F16's in 2002 in lieu of the bases given to the u s---. The u s was ready for it----only the fools in pakistan didnot know how to manipulate the situation to its advantage---.
> 
> What pakistan and what the pakistanis have done after 2001---would go down in the anals of history----as the worst strategic blunders in the history of mankind----FROM THE JAWS OF VICTORY INTO THE HELL HOLE OF DEFEAT will have the picture of post 9/11 pakistan----actually post 2007 pakistan----.
> 
> Why did the pakistanis make OBL a hero---he had nothing to do with pakistan---he is the reason a million afghans are dead in afg----he is the reason aroubnd 40 thousand pakistanis are dead in pakistan---he is the reason pakistani economy is destroyed---and my ignorant and stu-pid brethren are praises for that lunatic-----. How sick does an nation have to be---how mentally sick the men and young boys of the nation have to be to follow this man who brought death and destruction to a tragic place like afg.
> 
> In the end---who gives a fcuk who bombed the twin towers---I didn't do it---my countrymen didn't do it---we don't have the blame---nobody is saying that we did it----the countries who's nationals participated in it---those countries are okay with the u s---and the country pakistan who had no involvement in it----it has become a pariah nation----how could that be possible----.
> 
> How stupid a nation and its population has to be---how dumb the civil society of that nation has to be---how grossly out of sync the men of the nation are from reality---the books of history will condemn the pakistans in the same manner as the current day pakistanis condemn the traitors of muslim history----.


 
Mastan bhai - I agree with you 200% on the topic of OBL & AlQaeda. That's a cancer and it needed to be surgically removed ASAP. The WOT damaged Pakistan along with Alqaeda and even with all the cooperation, the US can't trust Pakistan. You are also right about the society as to how stupid a society can be to regard a murderer who got hundreds of thousands of people killed for an event that's PROHIBITED by Islam, i.e. killing of men & women who had nothing to do with anything in NYC. Similarly resulting in men & women who got killed in Afg & Pak. This is the ultimate stupidity ever. Sad part is, some idiots support it even when its entirely unIslamic!

Now back to JFT & PAF. I think you are mistaken there a bit. "Asking" and "Receiving" are two different things. Pak asked for a lot of stuff. An example is a defensive tech like night vision goggles, rifles and airlift choppers. What and when they got it? A YEAR ago and even the night vision goggles have to be accounted for every 24 hours!!! This is the reality.
PAF also pushed & pushed hard for Hawkeye systems. On paper, a request was sent to congress.....it was and will never materialize on P3C planes. At least not the updated ones.
After reversing sanctions, US had made an internal strategy (which was further enhanced after Pakistani test to Tomahawk like cruise missile) that NOT to give any latest tech to Pak. F 16 was almost a painful favor due to the history of the issue and they wanted to shut people up and show that they were building a relationship with Pakistan. If the US was that giving, they would've offered F 18 and so as they did to India. When you are buying stuff from a country through their own financing, you become a beggar (almost) and it's up to them as to what they'll allow you to have......so please realize that irrespective of what was asked or not asked, the options have ALWAYS been very difficult post Soviet war. Plus, after 911 the "we'll bomb you to stone age" deal....they were too busy in focusing on how to build a jet that's sanction proof and can replace F 7, Mirages and have some BVR tech. Over the decade, the low tech JFT has evolved into a very potent and much better electronics. The West calls it a "poor nation's F 16". This is not a slogan but there are a TON of capability analysis that go into calling something like an F 16. They could've just as easily dubbed it a "poor man's modern F 7" too...something the West loves to do to show how inferior the Chinese tech is. But that's not the case anymore as it is Israeli & Russian tech that China's setting as its baseline and then building on top of it.

I highly recommend that you wait and see....BII specs will be out and BIII as well. PAF WILL surprise you soon. Those folks are not sitting idle and acting stupid. They know when MRCA will be inducted and when PakFa will be coming in.....just like Falcon AWACS. By the time Falcon was inducted, PAF had the Eireye soon after that and it was working on Chinese / Pakistani ZDK 03 (which will also be produced in Pakistan going forward). So there are some great decisions made and some great progress towards self reliance. 
The Chinese drove bicycles for three plus decades before they got to where they are now from a economic and military standpoint. Similarly, the Indians didn't allow imported products like cars, etc until a few years ago as they wanted to drive their own. Look at where they are at now.
Now take JFT....the FIRST block is comparable to Gripen, Mirage 2000-5 and F 16 (up to B-40) in many ways. JFT BII (more likely BIII) may put it at direct capability comparison against F 16 B52 or the Rafale... or a little inferior. NOT BAD.
I also think Pakistan should skip J 10B and move to a combo of Stealth single engine design of a 5th gen and add J 11's (both for Navy & PAF, around 2-4 squadrons at least). Introduce hi altitude SAMS / ABM's in numbers by modifying Shaheen 1 for intercept roles. This will prove out to be a great counter in my opinion.


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## Rain

ANG said:


> Hi, I will have to definitely agree with Mr. MK that Pakistan should have asked for more. They blew it! Pakistan did not even ask for debt write-off, simply deferring the paying of loans. How stupid was the government? Even getting debt write-off would have given them more disposable funds. But then again, more loans means more embezzeling opportunities for the politicians, and what do they care if the country will become bankrupt.
> 
> However, that is the past. Other than the J-10B, if the PAF has the money, and the J-17, I do not see any choice for the PAF right now. Mr. MK is right, if you go flash 15+B dollars to a western country they will sell you stuff. Money talks!




100% Rite!


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## Luftwaffe

ANG said:


> Hi, I will have to definitely agree with Mr. MK that Pakistan should have asked for more. They blew it! Pakistan did not even ask for debt write-off, simply deferring the paying of loans. How stupid was the government? Even getting debt write-off would have given them more disposable funds. But then again, more loans means more embezzeling opportunities for the politicians, and what do they care if the country will become bankrupt.
> 
> However, that is the past. Other than the J-10B, if the PAF has the money, and the J-17, I do not see any choice for the PAF right now. Mr. MK is right, if you go flash 15+B dollars to a western country they will sell you stuff. Money talks!



See more people agreeing, 77 F-16s were our last and the only chance IF no there western fighter were on the procurement list.


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## Luftwaffe

orangzaib;

You seem sensible person, I asked it and I am asking everyone again. IF BLKIII JFT is going to be so superior and a some even say it would become F-16C Class Fighter than what is the purpose of J-10B why do we have to invest in J-10B and Why 150 J-10B if JFT BLOCK III finally would give us the punch we need. By the time of BLOCK III JFT you would have 3 Types of roughly similar capabilities, I don't see the point lets take out F-16 it stands and will stand tall always, where PAF always waits and wait then Lets wait till 2016-17, there is no hurry to procure J-10B infact there is no need... CFTs and IFR solves the problem of range, by now PAF should learn from LM F-16/SUFA Project, what is the reason Israelis did not go for more F-15_ and picked SUFAs configuration, you want to stay in business make something out if this JFT IF BLOCK III is considered ultimate, PAF needs to work hard on it, not another promise that might not be delivered and the next story comes BLOCK IV._

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## SQ8

Luftwaffe said:


> orangzaib;
> 
> You seem sensible person, I asked it and I am asking everyone again. IF BLKIII JFT is going to be so superior and a some even say it would become *F-16C Class Fighter* than what is the purpose of J-10B why do we have to invest in J-10B and Why 150 J-10B if JFT BLOCK III finally would give us the punch we need. By the time of BLOCK III JFT you would have 3 Types of roughly similar capabilities, I don't see the point lets take out F-16 it stands and will stand tall always, where PAF always waits and wait then Lets wait till 2016-17, there is no hurry to procure J-10B infact there is no need... CFTs and IFR solves the problem of range, by now PAF should learn from LM F-16/SUFA Project, what is the reason Israelis did not go for more F-15_ and picked SUFAs configuration, you want to stay in business make something out if this JFT IF BLOCK III is considered ultimate, PAF needs to work hard on it, not another promise that might not be delivered and the next story comes BLOCK IV._


_

In avionics perhaps.. but never in payload capacity.
The Jf-17 cannot carry a heavy payload and strike deep at the same time. the J-10B offers an improvement over that ability.. apart from a big nose for even better avionics. However, both funds and priorities do not permit the Fc-20 for the PAF till after 2016.

The F-16 is not going anywhere from the PAF's plans till 2025..
If anybody wants to gauge the love for the F-16 in the PAF.. give them tons of money and allow them to buy F-16's.. 
they'll buy them all.._

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## Viper0011.

Luftwaffe said:


> orangzaib;
> 
> You seem sensible person, I asked it and I am asking everyone again. IF BLKIII JFT is going to be so superior and a some even say it would become F-16C Class Fighter than what is the purpose of J-10B why do we have to invest in J-10B and Why 150 J-10B if JFT BLOCK III finally would give us the punch we need. By the time of BLOCK III JFT you would have 3 Types of roughly similar capabilities, I don't see the point lets take out F-16 it stands and will stand tall always, where PAF always waits and wait then Lets wait till 2016-17, there is no hurry to procure J-10B infact there is no need... CFTs and IFR solves the problem of range, by now PAF should learn from LM F-16/SUFA Project, what is the reason Israelis did not go for more F-15_ and picked SUFAs configuration, you want to stay in business make something out if this JFT IF BLOCK III is considered ultimate, PAF needs to work hard on it, not another promise that might not be delivered and the next story comes BLOCK IV._


_

Re-read my post again. I'd like to by pass J10B all together and introduce heavier platform J11's and go straight to 5th Gen stealth. When we get J10B, then test it, update it and turn it into a platform, it'll pretty much be older generation as AF's around the world would be using more stealth jets and UCAV's. So, I think PAF should skip J10B all together. Get some J11's with TOT or license production and invest into a 5th gen stealth program. IF JFT BIII IS that single engine Shenyang / CAC's stealth project with heavier payloads, etc. Then J10B makes sense. Otherwise, it should be skipped! Hope this helps_


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## MastanKhan

Orangzaib,

In any event---when oppurtunity knocks at your door and comes abegging----timing is everything----. You have to have everything that you want written agreed and in delievery mode up front---not five or seven years later or say---they know what we want---so they should automatically give it to us.

That is why the pre-nuptual agreement has gained importance----that is what the paks did not know about----. My country men were so foolish that they agreed on providing service to the u s and then billing them a year later and waiting two years to get paid----and in the end the american used this term as AID and not payment for services provided---remember rent is due in the begining of every month----pakistanis decided to receive it at the end of the month including delays---wow.

Any management with any kind of common sense would have used the goodwill 'PAGRI' system---pay me approximate one years expenses up front---pay me a security kind of deposit of one to two year equivalent up front---and afterwards---every years payment must arrive one month in advance----or face a massive penalty---because we are a poor country and cannot absorb this massive transition withoput damaging our infra structure.

Now as for as what the PAF is saying about the JF17---they know that they have scr-ewed up for not getting something by 2003----as the peace deal failed and the earthquake happened----now they have cover ups and stories that the jf17 is what they wanted --- it is sanction proof ( RD93 ) (martin baker ejection seats) if that is what they have----. 

About the night vision goggles---well don't start donating it to the enemy---but first of all---they should have been on the supply list right upfront in the first 60 days-----and not after 6 years of war.

Bottomline---if pak civilians had allowed their govt the executions of the foreigners / al qadea operatives / tajiks / chechen fighters / yemeni / somali / french / american / british / etc fighters in pakistan---why would you have any problem with what you needed.

If you happen to read the millitary manual of ' How to overcome an insurgency '---you can first follow the examples of successful muslim emperors and caliphs----just read your history books or---it would be on the very first page of the manual-------timing timing and timing----. Once you start---strike hard---strike deep---keep on striking rlentlessly---annihilate them from top to bottom at a lightening speed---take out their leaders and their chain in command---. Do what the muslims Caliph have done---execute them all--total destruction---. The writ of the state must never be challenged----pakisatn comes first---pakistanis come first----.

This time around the writ of the state was challenged and the integrity of the state was threatened because some pakistanis decided to give sanctuary to the al qaeda---.

Has the army major and his family who were hiding Khalid Sheikh Mohammad executed by the pak govt yet.


As Luftwaffe pointed out---if the JF 17's second and third batch are so good---then why the J10B. What it boils down to is what is your heavy air superiority air dominance fighter aircraft---then what is your heavy ground strike aircraft----in relation to the enemy's.

When you are fighting and enemy---twice as large as you----you have to have weapons systems that put thru a massive visible punch when they strike----not in large numbers but in sufficient visible numbers.

As for the sanctions---if the paks had chosen to be pakistani lover first and no some arab ar-se kissers of Osama Bin Laden---this word 'sanctions' would have disappeared from the pakistani dictionary.

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## Storm Force

DID OSCAR JUST SAY NO FC20 until year 2016 IE 4 YEARS AWAY 



> However, both funds and priorities do not permit the Fc-20 for the PAF till after 2016.



*How can FC20 NOT be a priority does not make sense.....* SU30MKI threat is huge and if RAFALE deal is signed in 6 months as expected surely FC20 should be NO1 priority...

OR is the FC20 not ready for EXPORT ????


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## SQ8

Storm Force said:


> DID OSCAR JUST SAY NO FC20 until year 2016 IE 4 YEARS AWAY
> 
> 
> 
> *How can FC20 NOT be a priority does not make sense.....* SU30MKI threat is huge and if RAFALE deal is signed in 6 months as expected surely FC20 should be NO1 priority...
> 
> OR is the FC20 not ready for EXPORT ????



Or perhaps the PAF is actually satisfied by the capability the JF-17 is bringing vis a vis future threats that it thinks 150 JF-17's are better than 40-50 Fc-20's.
The FC-20 is ready for export.. tomorrow if the PAF wants... the PAF simply does not want it tomorrow.. or that soon.


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## The enlightened

Oscar said:


> Or perhaps the* PAF is actually satisfied* by the capability the JF-17 is bringing vis a vis future threats that it thinks 150 JF-17's are better than 40-50 Fc-20's.
> The FC-20 is ready for export.. tomorrow if the PAF wants... the PAF simply does not want it tomorrow.. or that soon.


Are you????
That PAF doesn't consider IAF a threat is a joke.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Oscar said:


> Or perhaps the PAF is actually satisfied by the capability the JF-17 is bringing vis a vis future threats that it thinks 150 JF-17's are better than 40-50 Fc-20's.
> The FC-20 is ready for export.. tomorrow if the PAF wants... the PAF simply does not want it tomorrow.. or that soon.



Or simply, for shopping you need a Credit-Card or Cash in advance.


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## Windjammer

The enlightened said:


> Are you????
> That PAF doesn't consider IAF a threat is a joke.



Put it this way, PAF is in a position to handle the threat that IAF poses. !!


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## farhan_9909

i will always support a few squarden of heavy j11 over j10b any time

paf 2020
50-60 j11bs
150-200 jft II/III
70-80 f16

now this is a pure perfect defensive force with j11bs with deep strike ability

and beyond 2020 think about 5th gen as the curse of zardari might on economy may nt be any more


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## The enlightened

Windjammer said:


> Put it this way, PAF is in a position to handle the threat that IAF poses. !!


With what? JF-17?
BTW Come back to the Chinese copy or no-copy thread.


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## Farooqi1

orangzaib said:


> Re-read my post again. I'd like to by pass J10B all together and introduce heavier platform J11's and go straight to 5th Gen stealth. When we get J10B, then test it, update it and turn it into a platform, it'll pretty much be older generation as AF's around the world would be using more stealth jets and UCAV's. So, I think PAF should skip J10B all together. Get some J11's with TOT or license production and invest into a 5th gen stealth program. IF JFT BIII IS that single engine Shenyang / CAC's stealth project with heavier payloads, etc. Then J10B makes sense. Otherwise, it should be skipped! Hope this helps



One 100% agree with you with little add on. Why not go for 36J10B and 48 J11B or more? Just my thought


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## farhan_9909

j10b is good fighter bt without AESA i will always opt for block 52 over it


jft III might nt be on par with j10b by 2016
bt would nt be a class behind also



say no to single engine and induct justca few squardens of heavy strike fighter
being a defensive force we dnt need j11 kinda fighter in large numbers

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## Windjammer

The enlightened said:


> With what? JF-17?
> BTW Come back to the Chinese copy or no-copy thread.



Albeit, very potent but JF-17 is not the only aircraft in PAF inventory.


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## The enlightened

Farooqi1 said:


> One 100% agree with you with little add on. Why not go for 36J10B and 48 J11B or more? Just my thought


Will you pay for it?



Windjammer said:


> Albeit, very potent but JF-17 is not the only aircraft in PAF inventory.


Never mind.
Let's keep this thread ON-topic and you better come back to Chinese-copy-flanker-make-new-jet-Carlo-knop thread.

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## IPL5

Oscar said:


> Or perhaps the PAF is actually satisfied by the capability the JF-17 is bringing vis a vis future threats that it thinks 150 JF-17's are better than 40-50 Fc-20's.
> The FC-20 is ready for export.. tomorrow if the PAF wants... the PAF simply does not want it tomorrow.. or that soon.



I think russian are not allowing exporting their engines to pakistan for j10 B


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## SQ8

IPL5 said:


> I think russian are not allowing exporting their engines to pakistan for j10 B



You think pointless speculation.
Russian have no problem with FC-20 to Pakistan, they arent even part of this equation.


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## IPL5

Oscar said:


> You think pointless speculation.
> Russian have no problem with FC-20 to Pakistan, they arent even part of this equation.



sirjee, we don't thrive on speculations unlike some, still there is no confirmation of f10b is using chinese made engine, recent purchase of russian engine divulge the reality... don't forget you still using russian engine for under-powered jet like jf-17 as compared to j10 b


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## The enlightened

IPL5 said:


> sirjee, we don't thrive on speculations unlike some, still there is no confirmation of f10b is using chinese made engine, recent purchase of russian engine divulge the reality... don't forget you still using russian engine for under-powered jet like jf-17 as compared to j10 b


They aren't getting this jet anytime soon. By 2014-6, Chinese engine should be ready.


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## Storm Force

I want to thank you FARHAN and ORANGZIB and few others.... 

reason being IN THE PAST i have attempted to advocate the J11 chinease FLANKER over the FC20.

let me explain.

JF17 will be improved much like the F16 went from F16/A/B dog fighter to F16/52 true muti roler to F16/60 aesa equipped mid 4th gen super falcon.

JFT will follow the same programme JFTMK1 current 50 + JFTMK2 improved weapons range. radar, compsites, AND then the ulimate JFT block 3 improved steath new generation weapons & cockpit post 2018. 

I expect the unit cost to grow from $15m to $25m, too $40m each..... BUT this will be a unique PAF fighter designed and matured to PAF needs and future threat scenarios.

THE FC20 TOO DATE has been designed to MEET chinease needs and threats only... AND if the JFT mk3 is as good as people say it could be THERE FC20 will bring very little that is new to the PAF. I envisage some future FC20 TECH WILL BE IN thunder regardless.

LIMITED FUNDS means PAF have to think twice thrice how they use their funds today and in future. JFT MK3 and FC20 are too similar in role and doctrine to be worth the cost of induction. 


J11 MKI for PAF.... in other words a FLANKER J11B or J11 specific to PAF would be a GREAT ADDITION giving PAF a much need heavey twin engined option that so many top air forces have globally.

FOR A START 50 J11 will give the indian navy a major headache ( combat radius 1000km with twice the load of the JFT or F16) 

MULTIPLE long range ruise missle strike capability and FUTURE access to UKRAINIAN BVR missles for the J11 like R27 & R77 and not just SD10... 

The options simply multiple for PAF operationally effectiveness

50 J11 MKI 
150 Thunder mk1 2 & 3 
60+ F16 52/mlu 
120 F7/PG 

by 2018 is very possible and a MUCH more balanced air force

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## sancho

IPL5 said:


> sirjee, we don't thrive on speculations unlike some, still there is no confirmation of f10b is using chinese made engine, recent purchase of russian engine divulge the reality... don't forget you still using russian engine for under-powered jet like jf-17 as compared to j10 b



Many wrong points!

They are testing Chinese engine with J10.
Russia will have no issue with selling AL 31 for J10B and India will not be able to do anything against it, because Russia will argue again that we get even more advanced engines from them.
And who told you that JF 17 and J10 are underpowered?


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## Peaceful Civilian

MastanKhan said:


> Orangzaib,
> 
> In any event---when oppurtunity knocks at your door and comes abegging----timing is everything----. You have to have everything that you want written agreed and in delievery mode up front---not five or seven years later or say---they know what we want---so they should automatically give it to us.
> 
> That is why the pre-nuptual agreement has gained importance----that is what the paks did not know about----. My country men were so foolish that they agreed on providing service to the u s and then billing them a year later and waiting two years to get paid----and in the end the american used this term as AID and not payment for services provided---remember rent is due in the begining of every month----pakistanis decided to receive it at the end of the month including delays---wow.
> 
> Any management with any kind of common sense would have used the goodwill 'PAGRI' system---pay me approximate one years expenses up front---pay me a security kind of deposit of one to two year equivalent up front---and afterwards---every years payment must arrive one month in advance----or face a massive penalty---because we are a poor country and cannot absorb this massive transition withoput damaging our infra structure.
> 
> Now as for as what the PAF is saying about the JF17---they know that they have scr-ewed up for not getting something by 2003----as the peace deal failed and the earthquake happened----now they have cover ups and stories that the jf17 is what they wanted --- it is sanction proof ( RD93 ) (martin baker ejection seats) if that is what they have----.
> 
> About the night vision goggles---well don't start donating it to the enemy---but first of all---they should have been on the supply list right upfront in the first 60 days-----and not after 6 years of war.
> 
> If you happen to read the millitary manual of ' How to overcome an insurgency '---you can first follow the examples of successful muslim emperors and caliphs----just read your history books or---it would be on the very first page of the manual-------timing timing and timing----. Once you start---strike hard---strike deep---keep on striking rlentlessly---annihilate them from top to bottom at a lightening speed---take out their leaders and their chain in command---. Do what the muslims Caliph have done---execute them all--total destruction---. The writ of the state must never be challenged----pakisatn comes first---pakistanis come first----.
> 
> When you are fighting and enemy---twice as large as you----you have to have weapons systems that put thru a massive visible punch when they strike----not in large numbers but in sufficient visible numbers.
> .


You are taking only One angle of view and ignoring other aspects.
R&development & JV cost never waste which happened around 500 Million dollar and experience which our engineers gained from this project is unique and not-ignorable which will help further in future...
Opponent have to keep their fleet twice from us as they have other enemy and Even in war scenario, they have to keep some fleet on the other border as well.

Need J10b because it has good load capacity and it will work as air superiority. According to Chinese, till now, j10b is their best fighter.
F16 is no doubt good and capable fighter but it comes with some limitations and i don't know even we are getting Jamming technology in F16s or not.
Now think Jf17 was right choice or some more F16s ...
If we bought F16s, we never had experience from a R&development& JV project, even in many aspect Jf17 is par with f16 A//B from Block 1 and Block Ii is expected around mid of this year which will be less or par with Block52+ in many aspect


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## Viper0011.

MastanKhan said:


> Orangzaib,
> 
> In any event---when oppurtunity knocks at your door and comes abegging----timing is everything----. You have to have everything that you want written agreed and in delievery mode up front---not five or seven years later or say---they know what we want---so they should automatically give it to us.
> 
> That is why the pre-nuptual agreement has gained importance----that is what the paks did not know about----. My country men were so foolish that they agreed on providing service to the u s and then billing them a year later and waiting two years to get paid----and in the end the american used this term as AID and not payment for services provided---remember rent is due in the begining of every month----pakistanis decided to receive it at the end of the month including delays---wow.
> 
> Any management with any kind of common sense would have used the goodwill 'PAGRI' system---pay me approximate one years expenses up front---pay me a security kind of deposit of one to two year equivalent up front---and afterwards---every years payment must arrive one month in advance----or face a massive penalty---because we are a poor country and cannot absorb this massive transition withoput damaging our infra structure.
> 
> Now as for as what the PAF is saying about the JF17---they know that they have scr-ewed up for not getting something by 2003----as the peace deal failed and the earthquake happened----now they have cover ups and stories that the jf17 is what they wanted --- it is sanction proof ( RD93 ) (martin baker ejection seats) if that is what they have----.
> 
> About the night vision goggles---well don't start donating it to the enemy---but first of all---they should have been on the supply list right upfront in the first 60 days-----and not after 6 years of war.
> 
> Bottomline---if pak civilians had allowed their govt the executions of the foreigners / al qadea operatives / tajiks / chechen fighters / yemeni / somali / french / american / british / etc fighters in pakistan---why would you have any problem with what you needed.
> 
> If you happen to read the millitary manual of ' How to overcome an insurgency '---you can first follow the examples of successful muslim emperors and caliphs----just read your history books or---it would be on the very first page of the manual-------timing timing and timing----. Once you start---strike hard---strike deep---keep on striking rlentlessly---annihilate them from top to bottom at a lightening speed---take out their leaders and their chain in command---. Do what the muslims Caliph have done---execute them all--total destruction---. The writ of the state must never be challenged----pakisatn comes first---pakistanis come first----.
> 
> This time around the writ of the state was challenged and the integrity of the state was threatened because some pakistanis decided to give sanctuary to the al qaeda---.
> 
> Has the army major and his family who were hiding Khalid Sheikh Mohammad executed by the pak govt yet.
> 
> 
> As Luftwaffe pointed out---if the JF 17's second and third batch are so good---then why the J10B. What it boils down to is what is your heavy air superiority air dominance fighter aircraft---then what is your heavy ground strike aircraft----in relation to the enemy's.
> 
> When you are fighting and enemy---twice as large as you----you have to have weapons systems that put thru a massive visible punch when they strike----not in large numbers but in sufficient visible numbers.
> 
> As for the sanctions---if the paks had chosen to be pakistani lover first and no some arab ar-se kissers of Osama Bin Laden---this word 'sanctions' would have disappeared from the pakistani dictionary.


 
Mastan bhai - I entirely agree with you on about 80% of the post. My take on JFT related situation is however different than yours. 

You are right. There needed to be a list in advance after an assessment was made. This is where democracy is different than dictatorship. Generals are not taught to negotiate. There job is to execute the orders and fight, not play politics or negotiate. Here you had a guy who gave up on ONE call and didn't know how to approach Sh$t. So that was your major issue. Secondly, Pakistani leadership is all corrupt. They don't want to represent the country fairly in front of others. It's like a security cushion, more messed up the country looks, more chances of confused foreign powers to keep the people as is since they'd be scared of a change in leadership. From Zia to Zardari....everyone played that card well in front of the Americans. You never had real leaders come up front unfortunately. 
Lastly and truthfully, with Indian lobby becoming very strong and active, you STILL wouldn't have gotten away with offensive weapons. That just wouldn't happen until Pakistani economy grows and you talk CASH with others. India had over 255 Billion $ last year in their reserves...Pakistan lives off loans. So you have to take that into account. Irrespective of what we had asked, the Americans did and still consider Pakistan as the root cause of the 911 due to training etc. So, even people came from other places..the environment existed for them (that's why Obama referred to Pakistan as the cancer and India's makes silly statements like this all the time). So, I don't know why Pakistani's don't wake up and pick the right people and build tolerance in the society as that's the only way to get Pakistan better and grow and increase common people's spending capacity, provide better environment to live and to prosper.
JFT seemed like the only option at that time. But now, it is the best option as you've got a lot of capability in it. You are mistaken here when you look at it from a low tech fighter. It's got everything decent in it. The West admits it. Mig had been crying for the Russian gov't to stop the engines as this to them is a direct competition to their jets. So it's not bad.
I'd see this grow larger and better from a load, engine and avionics perspective. Then get J 11's and jump straight to 5th gen stealth jets. I don't think Pakistan will really need J10B. This is my opinion.


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## IPL5

sancho said:


> Many wrong points!
> 
> They are testing Chinese engine with J10.
> Russia will have no issue with selling AL 31 for J10B and India will not be able to do anything against it, because Russia will argue again that we get even more advanced engines from them.
> And who told you that JF 17 and J10 are underpowered?



sirjee, testing and being operational is two different thing...
don't forget when US sold f-16 blk 52 india made a lot of hue and cry...
russian are loosing market to india, won't do anything to angry india. 
and I never said that jf17 is under-powered I said that in comparison with j10 b....when chinese do not have engine to power jf17 we can very much understand the reality...
Much of the so sha here on PDF is based on speculations...nothing concrete.


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## Farooqi1

The enlightened said:


> Will you pay for it?
> 
> 
> Never mind.
> Let's keep this thread ON-topic and you better come back to Chinese-copy-flanker-make-new-jet-Carlo-knop thread.



Yeah we can cahrge it on my AX


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## Viper0011.

IPL5 said:


> russian are loosing market to india, won't do anything to angry india.



Absolutely incorrect. They are loosing market to India but gained strength with the Chinese and in a few years, will be selling to countries that India once could restrict them to. Not sure why India-mania is so big in the minds of Indian people but it's just a matter of time. Pakistan's economy will take off and EVERYBODY and their uncle would love ca$$$h. That's the reality. Pakistan is the SIXTH largest population in the world. Population caused growth in India due to market size. What makes you think it won't happen in Pakistan???
When Pakistan has $ 100 billion sitting in reserves, trust me, even you'll be starting 'neighborhood joint technological projects' with them . Money talks and sh$t stops!! Oh and btw, $ 100 Billion reserves is not that much if the security situation gets better and market's opened to be utilized. Unlike India, Pakistan's market is immature so a LOT of chances of making money for any foreign investing company. People are just as smart as they are in India & China. Hope this bridges the gap between India-ism and Reality-ism!

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## IPL5

orangzaib said:


> Absolutely incorrect. They are loosing market to India but gained strength with the Chinese and in a few years, will be selling to countries that India once could restrict them to. Not sure why India-mania is so big in the minds of Indian people but it's just a matter of time. Pakistan's economy will take off and EVERYBODY and their uncle would love ca$$$h. That's the reality. Pakistan is the SIXTH largest population in the world. Population caused growth in India due to market size. What makes you think it won't happen in Pakistan???
> When Pakistan has $ 100 billion sitting in reserves, trust me, even you'll be starting 'neighborhood joint technological projects' with them . Money talks and sh$t stops!! Oh and btw, $ 100 Billion reserves is not that much if the security situation gets better and market's opened to be utilized. Unlike India, Pakistan's market is immature so a LOT of chances of making money for any foreign investing company. People are just as smart as they are in India & China. Hope this bridges the gap between India-ism and Reality-ism!



bullcrap !!! India is going to spend significantly in the upcoming year. pakfa project alone is of 35bn dollar and I'm not even mentioning the 150 bn usd nuclear market and strategic relationship that we have with russian.

and please do read your post before talking about realism ... a fragile economy on the verge of collapse should not talk about 100bn in reserves. I don't want to be rude that is why i'm not comment on the rest of gibberish.


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## Storm Force

Orangzaib.

Your comment


> but it's just a matter of time. Pakistan's economy will take off



You have suggested this in many of your posts. You seem to imply that this is a GIVEN but you have never explained how & why this HUGE turn of events will occur.

I dont see 

Any billonaire industrialists in Pakistan like your immediate neighbours
I see a huge reluctance for BIG weestern corporations to invest in Pakistan when they can invest in CHINA & INDIA next door
I cant see a MAJOR trust being built in the euro markets evebn SOUTH EAST ASIA by Pakistan for trade either.

Where is this growth coming from. 

PS when any nation is about to explode on the scene the investment banks star telling us and the WESTERN leaders start flocking to the country in question. 

IE next BIG rise will be indoneasia in OUR neighbourhood and guess what DAVID CAMERON of the UK is already there.

I dont see this in pakistan. AS YET


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## sancho

IPL5 said:


> sirjee, testing and being operational is two different thing...
> don't forget when US sold f-16 blk 52 india made a lot of hue and cry...
> russian are loosing market to india, won't do anything to angry india.
> and I never said that jf17 is under-powered I said that in comparison with j10 b....when chinese do not have engine to power jf17 we can very much understand the reality...
> Much of the so sha here on PDF is based on speculations...nothing concrete.



Who said it's operational, that's why PAF is waiting for J10B to be fully developed, mature and if possible with a Chinese engine. Russia is not loosing market in India at all, please check in the Indian section, I listed up the new procurements several times. All big and important procurements are either from Russia or co-developed with Russia. 

You said this:



> for under-powered jet like jf-17



So it's quiet clear right and this is a forum like any other too, many people speculate, or share there ideas and it's up to you to figure out what is true and what not. The point is, Russia is not selling fighters or weapons to PAF because of our relationship, but selling engines for Chinese fighters is not an issue for the, neither for JF 17 nor for J10.

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## IPL5

sancho said:


> Who said it's operational, that's why PAF is waiting for J10B to be fully developed, mature and if possible with a Chinese engine. Russia is not loosing market in India at all, please check in the Indian section, I listed up the new procurements several times. All big and important procurements are either from Russia or co-developed with Russia.
> 
> You said this:
> 
> 
> 
> So it's quiet clear right and this is a forum like any other too, many people speculate, or share there ideas and it's up to you to figure out what is true and what not. The point is, Russia is not selling fighters or weapons to PAF because of our relationship, but selling engines for Chinese fighters is not an issue for the, neither for JF 17 nor for J10.



sirjee, you are talking out of context here....

I said that because as per Oscar they are ready to get deliver as currently chinese engine is not operational it may be one of the reason... which is very much possible

Today they are not loosing maybe tomorrow they may loose ... isn't that allow india to has huge leverage over russia not to sell equipment to Pakistan?



> don't forget you still using russian engine for under-powered jet like jf-17 as compared to j10 b


 I said this in comparison with j10 b

More to suffice

Will support India against friendly neighbour: Medvedev - Hindustan Times


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## SQ8

IPL5 said:


> sirjee, we don't thrive on speculations unlike some, still there is no confirmation of f10b is using chinese made engine, recent purchase of russian engine divulge the reality... don't forget you still using russian engine for *under-powered jet* like jf-17 as compared to j10 b



How do you know its under powered.. by what speculation did you come up with that?


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## Pfpilot

If this debate is factoring in economic considerations than there is no debate at all. Pakistan, in its current situation, cannot afford the su-35 or the eurofighter or the j-10 or even the jf-17. People greatly underestimate the gravity of our economic decay. Pakistan, today, is in no position to make billion dollar expenditures on the needs of the military.

If the debate is from a purely academic or historical (when the funds and political climate was preferable) point of view, then one can easily argue Pakistan should have invested in an air superiority fighter of some kind or gone all in for the j-10. The jf-17 should have been shelved in favor of the j-10, if the goal was to remain the pursuit of self-sufficiency over present day performance. A foreign aircraft would have been preferable, because I still do not believe the domestic need of Pakistan is ever going to be large enough to allow for a local aviation industry to flourish. The Israelis did it with the Lavi, the Canadians with the Avro Arrow, and the French did so with the Mirage-4000. They shelved national pride in favor of tangibly superior capability.

What many Pakistanis have failed to acknowledge is the changing environment around us. The Indian military machine is reaching heights that will allow it to wage war against far superior nations than us, from a position of strength. In answer to this growing threat, we come across as decidedly toothless. The j-10 hasn't arrive, the f-16 will be the first casualty of wartime attrition (either through being shot down or in a deliberate attempt of self preservation by the PAF). 

J-10s, were they serving in the PAF at this point, would have provided a far greater capability than jf-17s. The greater payload and range would have had an exponential impact in capability, when dealing with the strategic depth mother nature provides India and its far off airfields. The jf-17, with its limited radius was always destined to be a fighter catering to localized needs.

Once again, in the realm of reality, there is nothing we can do at this point except rue the complete lack of foresight on the part of the PAF a decade ago. At this point, we don't have the funds to sway any aviation power to offer us aircraft. We are stuck with a short legged fighter incapable of gaining an upper hand over the adversary, another aircraft with limited numbers, and a third that exists only in the fantasies of all those who see a triumphant Pakistan in any future conflict. I have said it many times before, we cannot control against whom we will deploy the jf-17. One of the disadvantages of a defensive war is that the adversary decides when and where to fight. We will be left with no choice but to have the jf-17 flying against the Rafale and mki. Anyone who believes that is a favorable situation, or even one that can be salvageable over a medium term is lying to himself.

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## Farooqi1

orangzaib said:


> Absolutely incorrect. They are loosing market to India but gained strength with the Chinese and in a few years, will be selling to countries that India once could restrict them to. Not sure why India-mania is so big in the minds of Indian people but it's just a matter of time. Pakistan's economy will take off and EVERYBODY and their uncle would love ca$$$h. That's the reality. Pakistan is the SIXTH largest population in the world. Population caused growth in India due to market size. What makes you think it won't happen in Pakistan???
> When Pakistan has $ 100 billion sitting in reserves, trust me, even you'll be starting 'neighborhood joint technological projects' with them . Money talks and sh$t stops!! Oh and btw, $ 100 Billion reserves is not that much if the security situation gets better and market's opened to be utilized. Unlike India, Pakistan's market is immature so a LOT of chances of making money for any foreign investing company. People are just as smart as they are in India & China. Hope this bridges the gap between India-ism and Reality-ism!



Orangzaib:

Don't listen to these India Mafia people. As soon as political situation takes a corrective path in Pakistan we will shine again I A. Not too long ago these people used to be way behind us. Afghan war took its toll on us. Progress is no ones monpoly. Our time is around the cornor.

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## IPL5

Oscar said:


> How do you know its under powered.. by what speculation did you come up with that?



isn't that obvious jf17 engine is under powered as comparison with the engine of j10 b ? look I was comparing the engines not the jets.


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## Edevelop

IPL5 said:


> bullcrap !!! India is going to spend significantly in the upcoming year. pakfa project alone is of 35bn dollar and I'm not even mentioning the 150 bn usd nuclear market and strategic relationship that we have with russian.
> 
> and please do read your post before talking about realism ... *a fragile economy on the verge of collapse should not talk about 100bn in reserves*. I don't want to be rude that is why i'm not comment on the rest of gibberish.



We have been listening to Pakistan's economic collapse since 1947.... be honest with your comments, nothing has happened as of yet and this is 'reality'

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## Farooqi1

cb4 said:


> We have been listening to Pakistan's economic collapse since 1947.... be honest with your comments, nothing has happened as of yet and this is 'reality'



Way to go cb4. There is an Internet war going on by these Indian Mafia. We will not collapse IA. We will progress. Just need to get rid of Mr. 10% and explore our natural and human resources.


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## Jungibaaz

IPL5 said:


> isn't that obvious jf17 engine is under powered as comparison with the engine of j10 b ? look I was comparing the engines not the jets.



Do you know the meaning of underpowered? 
Both thrust and weight need to be taken into account.

The AL-31 and WS-10 would need to have greater thrust since the JF-17 is a light MRCA whereas the J-10 is actually quite big for a single engine fighter and is classed as medium weight.

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## Viper0011.

IPL5 said:


> bullcrap !!! India is going to spend significantly in the upcoming year. pakfa project alone is of 35bn dollar and I'm not even mentioning the 150 bn usd nuclear market and strategic relationship that we have with russian.
> 
> and please do read your post before talking about realism ... a fragile economy on the verge of collapse should not talk about 100bn in reserves. I don't want to be rude that is why i'm not comment on the rest of gibberish.


 

Bullcrap about what? This is where I have issues with my Indian friends. Too emotional without logic. What sounds bullcrap in the post. You didn't identify that. But you went on to tell me how much money India is spending which I haven't even doubted. 
No one's talking about a 'fragile economy on the verge of collapse having 100 BN USD'. Re-read my post. You are acting pretty naive actually.
I am well aware of household discussions around India in early 90's about what will happen to such a large population in the coming years as there was extreme poorness. But the IT industry took off, American leadership became stupider and allowed the largest human trafficking network to operate freely in the shape of H1's....you are going to talk to me like you were entitled to everything?
I don't know what or how much you know about world affairs and economic forecasts as it is not Java or .Net programming. But I will tell you this. In Lehman brother's Sach's and other largest investment houses, Pakistan, along with Mexico, Philippines, etc has been identified to be one of the top 15 economies by 2025. GRANTED if the security situation gets better. This is the POST BRIC strategy. It's called BRIC+11. Go look it up. 
It doesn't take a country of 200 million population to have 100B USD in reserves more than 10 years. Pakistan is an immature market so EVERYTHING will come in through investment. Try checking with an economic adviser as it may not be your sweet spot!

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## rishisankaran

orangzaib said:


> Bullcrap about what? This is where I have issues with my Indian friends. Too emotional without logic. What sounds bullcrap in the post. You didn't identify that. But you went on to tell me how much money India is spending which I haven't even doubted.
> No one's talking about a 'fragile economy on the verge of collapse having 100 BN USD'. Re-read my post. You are acting pretty naive actually.
> I am well aware of household discussions around India in early 90's about what will happen to such a large population in the coming years as there was extreme poorness. But the IT industry took off, American leadership became stupider and allowed the* largest human trafficking network to operate freely in the shape of H1's*....you are going to talk to me like you were entitled to everything?
> I don't know what or how much you know about world affairs and economic forecasts as it is not Java or .Net programming. But I will tell you this. In Lehman brother's Sach's and other largest investment houses, Pakistan, along with Mexico, Philippines, etc has been identified to be one of the top 15 economies by 2025. GRANTED if the security situation gets better. This is the POST BRIC strategy. It's called BRIC+11. Go look it up.
> It doesn't take a country of 200 million population to have 100B USD in reserves more than 10 years. Pakistan is an immature market so EVERYTHING will come in through investment. Try checking with an economic adviser as it may not be your sweet spot!



Well I think the human trafficking part was a farfetched one and no sane economist or an intellect would draw conclusions as you have. I do agree there are some elements which got involved in corrupt practices but labeling the entire NRI community that migrated to US in search of greener pastures as part of human trafficking network is the most ill researched conclusion I have ever heard. Rather If I had to lose my sanity for a moment and start comparing the same with Pakistan, I can easily point that the image of a Pakistani is not that all rosy in Europe and U.S. Well I don't have to start spilling the beans here, as I don't believe in attacking the nation for the act committed by a few of its citizens and this applies to both Pakistan and India. 
The development of India is not all about IT, well I do agree that the entire development revolution started with IT and outsourcing but it extended its reach among all other sectors ranging from Automobiles, healthcare, farming and manufacturing industries, those are the only few I can think of at the moment, but I 'm sure I can flood this entire forum with examples of shining India and the servers hosting this forum would fall short of holding it ( *just an example !! nothing against the forum*). My intention is not to brag about India shining picture as I do realize some of our citizens are living in abject poverty and that applies to your nation as well. Pakistan as a nation has huge potential to grow and become an economic power in the future but given the current political environment not just Pakistan even India with such an environment would hardly flourish and it doesn't take an economics degree to draw that conclusion. Hope you agree. 
Irrespective of the market being immature or mature without a peaceful and investment conducive environment economic growth is a distant dream, the best example of the same picture in India would be the Maoist infested regions. Admitting that I need to do better and comparing with a better one is not a crime and I'm proud to say that because there was a time when my dad used to compare our standard of education with that of US and Europe and now we have reached a stage where we can proudly say that we have reached the halfway mark but still plenty to do. 
I'm also proud to say that we majority of Indians believe ourselves to be sheer equals to others neither above nor below anyone and respect others view with a level of humbleness even if it&#8217;s filled with hatred and criticism, for we look into the constructive part of it. The best example for the same would be the Business community in India. I&#8217;m happy to swallow my pride and accept defeat, if I'm challenged with a logical reason to rebuke my views, for that helps me gain knowledge, develop perspectives and become more humble.


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## MastanKhan

IPL5 said:


> sirjee, we don't thrive on speculations unlike some, still there is no confirmation of f10b is using chinese made engine, recent purchase of russian engine divulge the reality... don't forget you still using russian engine for under-powered jet like jf-17 as compared to j10 b



Sir,

This statement of under powered is a very loose statement--it doesn't say and mean much---Th F14 was rated to be under powered---the F18 was rated to be under powered as well---mirage 3 and 5 were not the swiftest. You have to see where the aircrafts strengths and weaknesses lie and how you use the strenghts to your advantage---and manipulate the enemy's weaknesses.

With present day missile doing 10--20-25 G's---it is a miracle that the pilot will survive the streak coming at it---.

The F86 was a high altitude interceptor---whereas the Gnat was a low altitude interceptor----same difference in the F16 andMirage 2000----.

In this day and age of technology----if you can have an air truck full of high performance potent air to air smart missiles and high end electronics warfare system you should be able to send out a fully laden mule to take on the sleek and sharp strike aircraft---.

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## Viper0011.

rishisankaran said:


> Well I think the human trafficking part was a farfetched one and no sane economist or an intellect would draw conclusions as you have. I do agree there are some elements which got involved in corrupt practices but labeling the entire NRI community that migrated to US in search of greener pastures as part of human trafficking network is the most ill researched conclusion I have ever heard. Rather If I had to lose my sanity for a moment and start comparing the same with Pakistan, I can easily point that the image of a Pakistani is not that all rosy in Europe and U.S. Well I don't have to start spilling the beans here, as I don't believe in attacking the nation for the act committed by a few of its citizens and this applies to both Pakistan and India.
> The development of India is not all about IT, well I do agree that the entire development revolution started with IT and outsourcing but it extended its reach among all other sectors ranging from Automobiles, healthcare, farming and manufacturing industries, those are the only few I can think of at the moment, but I 'm sure I can flood this entire forum with examples of shining India and the servers hosting this forum would fall short of holding it ( *just an example !! nothing against the forum*). My intention is not to brag about India shining picture as I do realize some of our citizens are living in abject poverty and that applies to your nation as well. Pakistan as a nation has huge potential to grow and become an economic power in the future but given the current political environment not just Pakistan even India with such an environment would hardly flourish and it doesn't take an economics degree to draw that conclusion. Hope you agree.
> Irrespective of the market being immature or mature without a peaceful and investment conducive environment economic growth is a distant dream, the best example of the same picture in India would be the Maoist infested regions. Admitting that I need to do better and comparing with a better one is not a crime and I'm proud to say that because there was a time when my dad used to compare our standard of education with that of US and Europe and now we have reached a stage where we can proudly say that we have reached the halfway mark but still plenty to do.
> I'm also proud to say that we majority of Indians believe ourselves to be sheer equals to others neither above nor below anyone and respect others view with a level of humbleness even if its filled with hatred and criticism, for we look into the constructive part of it. The best example for the same would be the Business community in India. Im happy to swallow my pride and accept defeat, if I'm challenged with a logical reason to rebuke my views, for that helps me gain knowledge, develop perspectives and become more humble.


 
Bro - I don't think you want me talking about human trafficking network. Here are a few examples and these are through experience:
1) You interview Ram, who can work in the US. BUT, Sham shows up instead of Ram. Sham isn't authorized to get a job but Ram let's him use his papers.
2) You interview Shankar, Pratab interviews for him as its on the phone. When you meet Shankar in person, you wonder what happened to the language, style, etc, etc. Then it turns out Shakar doesn't know a lot vs. the interview but it's too late as he's in the company already
3) Indian recruiting companies, many of them run over fraudulent visas or visas issues for other categories. They send people here to work on categories ONLY allocated for business and NOT work. Read about Infosys, Mintech, Infotech, Wipro.....list goes on and on. Google "Indian IT companies conducting fraud" Here's a link:
Human Resource Executive Online - Fraud in India 

4) Corruption and lobbying. I've been to events myself where there was women, gifts and obviously in abundance. That'll set the stage for backing India up. 


5) You are right. Image of Pakistan is not, will never be rosy. If that's the case, the whole WOT will end and the issues with India too. India & needs Pakistan to exist so that they can justify taking food away from poor people to feeding their military until recently when India was poor. Now there is money, India's expanding out to China. Go figure.
Plus, Pakistan is a smaller poor country. Until it's market is opened up and the Americans make money off it, India will be the blue eye child that everyone loves, only for your big 1.1 billion people market. If US was that cozy with India, the defense secretary wouldn't have called India and China future enemies. Google it. He was forced to retract it but he didn't make a U turn, rather explained but his meaning was very clear. They are picking hedge against China, sort of who'd be the best pic out of two worst regions and China's communist so the prize goes to India.

6) Indian's have opened up companies under their kids name who aren't even ONE year old yet. Why? Cuz they were born here and are US citizens. They pay white people trips to India and money there in order to get business from them. What happens offshore stays offshore!!!! Know WAY too many examples bro. Then, they've put people in key roles, like HR, recruiters. These people ILLEGALLY suppress resumes from Americans and other nationalities JUST to promote their own people. 90% lies about their credentials and their status to work. I feel sad for the average American who's getting job-screwed by these illegal practices. This is ALL OVER the US. I know these things for a fact and I can prove this on national TV if I have to. I am sure I'll pis* off a lot of people who wouldn't talk to me but its ok!

There is nothing you can point to Pakistan as 'some people who did bad things" and call India a sacred cow. Pakistan is a muslim country and involved with the Afghan war so it's a clear victim & aggressor in US's view. Outside of WOT, India is doing the same that the ISI may be doing. Mass murders in Karachi, Baluchistan, Lahore...weapons through Afghanistan to Baluchistan, I can go on and on.
Just because you pick a women or muslim or minority president in your country, doesn't mean you guys are that loving and caring. You guys are the worst and cheap business folks out there and I meant it. Business ethics in Indian community suck. It's a known factor. I will applause here for Israelis / Jews. THE BEST work ethic & commitment focused people I've ever seen. There is clearly a reason why they are on top. They've earned it. On the other hand, Indian folks use VERY cheap tactics. Bribes & lobby money everywhere. One of my friends from India got a vp role through someone by allegedly paying 50K to the recruitment company. That's across the board!!!

Anyway, I think I can go on and crash the server with examples of Indian mafia in the US. But I'll stop. I hope people get a view of the Indian world.

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## rishisankaran

orangzaib said:


> Bro - I don't think you want me talking about human trafficking network. Here are a few examples and these are through experience:
> 1) You interview Ram, who can work in the US. BUT, Sham shows up instead of Ram. Sham isn't authorized to get a job but Ram let's him use his papers.
> 2) You interview Shankar, Pratab interviews for him as its on the phone. When you meet Shankar in person, you wonder what happened to the language, style, etc, etc. Then it turns out Shakar doesn't know a lot vs. the interview but it's too late as he's in the company already
> 3) Indian recruiting companies, many of them run over fraudulent visas or visas issues for other categories. They send people here to work on categories ONLY allocated for business and NOT work. Read about Infosys, Mintech, Infotech, Wipro.....list goes on and on. Google "Indian IT companies conducting fraud" Here's a link:
> Human Resource Executive Online - Fraud in India
> 
> 4) Corruption and lobbying. I've been to events myself where there was women, gifts and obviously in abundance. That'll set the stage for backing India up.
> 
> 
> 5) You are right. Image of Pakistan is not, will never be rosy. If that's the case, the whole WOT will end and the issues with India too. India & needs Pakistan to exist so that they can justify taking food away from poor people to feeding their military until recently when India was poor. Now there is money, India's expanding out to China. Go figure.
> Plus, Pakistan is a smaller poor country. Until it's market is opened up and the Americans make money off it, India will be the blue eye child that everyone loves, only for your big 1.1 billion people market. If US was that cozy with India, the defense secretary wouldn't have called India and China future enemies. Google it. He was forced to retract it but he didn't make a U turn, rather explained but his meaning was very clear. They are picking hedge against China, sort of who'd be the best pic out of two worst regions and China's communist so the prize goes to India.
> 
> 6) Indian's have opened up companies under their kids name who aren't even ONE year old yet. Why? Cuz they were born here and are US citizens. They pay white people trips to India and money there in order to get business from them. What happens offshore stays offshore!!!! Know WAY too many examples bro. Then, they've put people in key roles, like HR, recruiters. These people ILLEGALLY suppress resumes from Americans and other nationalities JUST to promote their own people. 90% lies about their credentials and their status to work. I feel sad for the average American who's getting job-screwed by these illegal practices. This is ALL OVER the US. I know these things for a fact and I can prove this on national TV if I have to. I am sure I'll pis* off a lot of people who wouldn't talk to me but its ok!
> 
> There is nothing you can point to Pakistan as 'some people who did bad things" and call India a sacred cow. Pakistan is a muslim country and involved with the Afghan war so it's a clear victim & aggressor in US's view. Outside of WOT, India is doing the same that the ISI may be doing. Mass murders in Karachi, Baluchistan, Lahore...weapons through Afghanistan to Baluchistan, I can go on and on.
> Just because you pick a women or muslim or minority president in your country, doesn't mean you guys are that loving and caring. You guys are the worst and cheap business folks out there and I meant it. Business ethics in Indian community suck. It's a known factor. I will applause here for Israelis / Jews. THE BEST work ethic & commitment focused people I've ever seen. There is clearly a reason why they are on top. They've earned it. On the other hand, Indian folks use VERY cheap tactics. Bribes & lobby money everywhere. One of my friends from India got a vp role through someone by allegedly paying 50K to the recruitment company. That's across the board!!!
> 
> Anyway, I think I can go on and crash the server with examples of Indian mafia in the US. But I'll stop. I hope people get a view of the Indian world.



Plotting to bomb time square and killing millions of innocents doesnt justify anything. And calling it as an act to justify U.S as an aggressor is mere foolishness. Anyways I believe you have anti-India sentiments deep within you and guess what it masks your eyes from all the negativeness that you might see around you in Pakistan. 
Well Im proud to accept that there are people who do fraud in India, I would be happy to strongly condemn their acts if proven. Probably the same amount of fraudulent cases and illegal perpetrators exists in Pakistan as well, to counter the same you have to be either an anti-INdian or a person who doesn't look deep within him before raising fingers on others. Pakistan is a great country but it does have its own share of problems probably more than what India has. Admit it you'll at least set an example as I do with my country, if not you still don't lose anything but your prejudices would mask all the self-improvement that you can bring in within yourself to become a better citizen for your country.

I guess I have summed up pretty much what I have to say and would like to withdraw from this argument without making much noise of it. Think of it as a retreat !! As sometimes ignoring a person with closed mind is much better than indulging in a nonconstructive argument with him. 

Let peace prevail .

India-Pakistan zindabad !!


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## SQ8

IPL5 said:


> isn't that obvious jf17 engine is under powered as comparison with the engine of j10 b ? look I was comparing the engines not the jets.



thats a fairly pointless comparison.
When you make a statement underpowered.. you talk about thrust to weight ratio's.
It is fairly clear to an educated person that the Rd-93 is a smaller engine than the Al-31.. 
but then the Rd-93 is powering something that is smaller.. so it is enough.
While the Al-31 powers something that is bigger.. hence it needs to be more powerful.
Please think before you post.

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## Viper0011.

rishisankaran said:


> Plotting to bomb time square and killing millions of innocents doesnt justify anything. And calling it as an act to justify U.S as an aggressor is mere foolishness. Anyways I believe you have anti-India sentiments deep within you and guess what it masks your eyes from all the negativeness that you might see around you in Pakistan.
> Well Im proud to accept that there are people who do fraud in India, I would be happy to strongly condemn their acts if proven. Probably the same amount of fraudulent cases and illegal perpetrators exists in Pakistan as well, to counter the same you have to be either an anti-INdian or a person who doesn't look deep within him before raising fingers on others. Pakistan is a great country but it does have its own share of problems probably more than what India has. Admit it you'll at least set an example as I do with my country, if not you still don't lose anything but your prejudices would mask all the self-improvement that you can bring in within yourself to become a better citizen for your country.
> 
> I guess I have summed up pretty much what I have to say and would like to withdraw from this argument without making much noise of it. Think of it as a retreat !! As sometimes ignoring a person with closed mind is much better than indulging in a nonconstructive argument with him.
> 
> Let peace prevail .
> 
> India-Pakistan zindabad !!


 

Typical 'deflector' response. You are taking the main points away and instead of answering or debating them properly in an acceptable manner, you've introduced 
"Time Square bombing" in there. What do you know about me man? I went through 911, I saw people with my eyes, the ones that were missing and the ones that
were thinking they'll never make it home again. I may have been one of them but who knows. NY is my city and you don't understand the level of love I have for her!
People who did 911 deserve capital punichment as Islam doesn't allow killing of innocents so not sure what personal agenda they had. Same goes for the time square
guy, Mumbai deal, Babari masjid, Kashmiri women's rapes, children's killings etc. 

What are your feelings about hand destroying Babari masjid while thousands of you had fun and your army and police watched the destruction and violation of human 
rights on camera?
Or the women and girls getting raped by the Indian army in Kashmir? Or the muslim and Christian communities getting burned in numbers with people in the house trying
to catch sleep with their kids? Can you be a bit more barbaric and unhuman than this?

Anyway, next time, debate objectively. As I am typing this, I am about to finish this and walk over to the next office where an Indian coworker and a friend is waiting 
for me. So NO, I don't have a problem with 'Indians'. I do have an issue with when some of you think India is hollier than cow or you have the entitlement to rule
the world when half your people can't sleep on a proper bed, similarly, same goes for Pakistan. 

Mature people call Sh$t ....Sh$t not roses so for objective debate, you should accept the reality instead of bringing stuff up that has no grounds or relevance.

And, I am actually looking forward to India & Pakistan becoming like a European union. It'll be beneficial for hundreds of millions of people and will reduce the threat of a destructive war!!!!

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## Farooqi1

orangzaib said:


> Bro - I don't think you want me talking about human trafficking network. Here are a few examples and these are through experience:
> 1) You interview Ram, who can work in the US. BUT, Sham shows up instead of Ram. Sham isn't authorized to get a job but Ram let's him use his papers.
> 2) You interview Shankar, Pratab interviews for him as its on the phone. When you meet Shankar in person, you wonder what happened to the language, style, etc, etc. Then it turns out Shakar doesn't know a lot vs. the interview but it's too late as he's in the company already
> 3) Indian recruiting companies, many of them run over fraudulent visas or visas issues for other categories. They send people here to work on categories ONLY allocated for business and NOT work. Read about Infosys, Mintech, Infotech, Wipro.....list goes on and on. Google "Indian IT companies conducting fraud" Here's a link:
> Human Resource Executive Online - Fraud in India
> 
> 4) Corruption and lobbying. I've been to events myself where there was women, gifts and obviously in abundance. That'll set the stage for backing India up.
> 
> 
> 5) You are right. Image of Pakistan is not, will never be rosy. If that's the case, the whole WOT will end and the issues with India too. India & needs Pakistan to exist so that they can justify taking food away from poor people to feeding their military until recently when India was poor. Now there is money, India's expanding out to China. Go figure.
> Plus, Pakistan is a smaller poor country. Until it's market is opened up and the Americans make money off it, India will be the blue eye child that everyone loves, only for your big 1.1 billion people market. If US was that cozy with India, the defense secretary wouldn't have called India and China future enemies. Google it. He was forced to retract it but he didn't make a U turn, rather explained but his meaning was very clear. They are picking hedge against China, sort of who'd be the best pic out of two worst regions and China's communist so the prize goes to India.
> 
> 6) Indian's have opened up companies under their kids name who aren't even ONE year old yet. Why? Cuz they were born here and are US citizens. They pay white people trips to India and money there in order to get business from them. What happens offshore stays offshore!!!! Know WAY too many examples bro. Then, they've put people in key roles, like HR, recruiters. These people ILLEGALLY suppress resumes from Americans and other nationalities JUST to promote their own people. 90% lies about their credentials and their status to work. I feel sad for the average American who's getting job-screwed by these illegal practices. This is ALL OVER the US. I know these things for a fact and I can prove this on national TV if I have to. I am sure I'll pis* off a lot of people who wouldn't talk to me but its ok!
> 
> There is nothing you can point to Pakistan as 'some people who did bad things" and call India a sacred cow. Pakistan is a muslim country and involved with the Afghan war so it's a clear victim & aggressor in US's view. Outside of WOT, India is doing the same that the ISI may be doing. Mass murders in Karachi, Baluchistan, Lahore...weapons through Afghanistan to Baluchistan, I can go on and on.
> Just because you pick a women or muslim or minority president in your country, doesn't mean you guys are that loving and caring. You guys are the worst and cheap business folks out there and I meant it. Business ethics in Indian community suck. It's a known factor. I will applause here for Israelis / Jews. THE BEST work ethic & commitment focused people I've ever seen. There is clearly a reason why they are on top. They've earned it. On the other hand, Indian folks use VERY cheap tactics. Bribes & lobby money everywhere. One of my friends from India got a vp role through someone by allegedly paying 50K to the recruitment company. That's across the board!!!
> 
> Anyway, I think I can go on and crash the server with examples of Indian mafia in the US. But I'll stop. I hope people get a view of the Indian world.



Way to go brother. You know when I got States in 1985 the biggest scam was going on of Life Insurance. They were bringing people from India, getting them life insurance and then claiming the benefits against a fake death certificate from India. No body likes the truth.


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## Safriz

Here J-10B takes off in 9 seconds.....Thats less than F-16 Block 60


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## Edevelop

No.
 took this seconds...  took this seconds should not be judged.
Note, J-10 has canards and delta wings it should not be compared with JF-17 and F-16


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## Safriz

cant compare it to typhoon either.....


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## Safriz

Pfpilot said:


> If this debate is factoring in economic considerations than there is no debate at all. Pakistan, in its current situation, cannot afford the su-35 or the eurofighter or the j-10 or even the jf-17. People greatly underestimate the gravity of our economic decay. Pakistan, today, is in no position to make billion dollar expenditures on the needs of the military.
> 
> If the debate is from a purely academic or historical (when the funds and political climate was preferable) point of view, then one can easily argue Pakistan should have invested in an air superiority fighter of some kind or gone all in for the j-10. The jf-17 should have been shelved in favor of the j-10, if the goal was to remain the pursuit of self-sufficiency over present day performance. A foreign aircraft would have been preferable, because I still do not believe the domestic need of Pakistan is ever going to be large enough to allow for a local aviation industry to flourish. The Israelis did it with the Lavi, the Canadians with the Avro Arrow, and the French did so with the Mirage-4000. They shelved national pride in favor of tangibly superior capability.
> 
> What many Pakistanis have failed to acknowledge is the changing environment around us. The Indian military machine is reaching heights that will allow it to wage war against far superior nations than us, from a position of strength. In answer to this growing threat, we come across as decidedly toothless. The j-10 hasn't arrive, the f-16 will be the first casualty of wartime attrition (either through being shot down or in a deliberate attempt of self preservation by the PAF).
> 
> J-10s, were they serving in the PAF at this point, would have provided a far greater capability than jf-17s. The greater payload and range would have had an exponential impact in capability, when dealing with the strategic depth mother nature provides India and its far off airfields. The jf-17, with its limited radius was always destined to be a fighter catering to localized needs.
> 
> Once again, in the realm of reality, there is nothing we can do at this point except rue the complete lack of foresight on the part of the PAF a decade ago. At this point, we don't have the funds to sway any aviation power to offer us aircraft. We are stuck with a short legged fighter incapable of gaining an upper hand over the adversary, another aircraft with limited numbers, and a third that exists only in the fantasies of all those who see a triumphant Pakistan in any future conflict. I have said it many times before, we cannot control against whom we will deploy the jf-17. One of the disadvantages of a defensive war is that the adversary decides when and where to fight. We will be left with no choice but to have the jf-17 flying against the Rafale and mki. Anyone who believes that is a favorable situation, or even one that can be salvageable over a medium term is lying to himself.


 
for the strategic depth of infia and far offair fields pakistan has been developing missiles....insdtead of long range bomber


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## Edevelop

Safriz said:


> cant compare it to typhoon either.....



J-10 vs Jas-39:
Both have 1 engine, canards, and delta wing:











Eurofighter vs Rafale:
Both have 2 engines, canards, and delta wings










F-15 vs Mig 35:
Both have 2 engines, same wings.


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## Safriz

Grippen is much smaller than j-10..
you cant compare


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## Nishan_101

I think PAC should step up and try to ink a deal with CAC to co-produce about 70 J-10Bs for the PAF, as we are expecting that the block-II production will be about 150 JF-17 Block-IIs along with the dual seat.


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## Farooqi1

Pakistan to buy more Chinese fighters?

Pakistan may buy up to 36 Chinese J-10 fighter aircraft.
Gary Parsons - 11-Nov-2009

CAIC image
November 10: The UK&#8217;s Financial Times reports that Pakistan may buy up to 36 Chinese J-10 fighter aircraft in a deal worth $1.4bn.

It is believed that the J-10 version being considered by the Pakistan Air Force is the FC-20, an export version that would comply with Pakistani avionics requirements. It would be operational by 2015. The J-10 is regarded by the industry as a &#8216;fourth-generation&#8217; fighter, similar in capability to the latest versions of the F-16 and Saab&#8217;s Gripen.

Pakistan has bought Chinese-built fighters in the past &#8211; it operates 100 Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAIC) F-7P &#8216;Airguards&#8217;, a licence-built version of the elderly MiG-21 Fishbed produced as recently as 2006, in three front-line squadrons as well as 26 Shenyang Aircraft Corporation FT-5/6s, based upon the even older MiG-17. 

The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has recently teamed up with CAIC to produce the JF-17 &#8216;Thunder&#8217; light fighter, the first examples being delivered to Pakistan in mid-March 2008. The first squadron, No. 26, is expected to stand-up in early 2010 and Pakistan may eventually buy up to 250.


*This the latest I could find on web via airforcesmonthly.com. I don't think there is any other development. If anyone knows then please do share.
*


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## air marshal



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## razgriz19

J-10 deal is not even signed yet.
It is the last thing on PAF agenda or atleast after finishing Jf-17s for PAF.


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## The SC

PAF can get some F-15s, lets say 2 squadrons, for air superiority, SA can spare a few, The US can too as a good will gesture and compensation for WOT, and Pakistan can buy a few on its own.


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## ziaulislam

^^funny joke

it seems after 2015 pakistan will try to get j-10s 

it purely depends upon the political will. we had the will to pay billions in 90s for f-16s in comparison today 1.4 billion is not much.
but again it seems it will be after jf-17 programme.

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## Safriz

^^^^J-10b aesa


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## Safriz

J-10b isnt ready yet.....
still ptototype..
pakistan will get it when its ready.


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## Farooqi1

Safriz said:


> J-10b isnt ready yet.....
> still ptototype..
> pakistan will get it when its ready.



Inshaallah sir

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## SBD-3

Pfpilot said:


> If this debate is factoring in economic considerations than there is no debate at all. Pakistan, in its current situation, cannot afford the su-35 or the eurofighter or the j-10 or even the jf-17. People greatly underestimate the gravity of our economic decay. Pakistan, today, is in no position to make billion dollar expenditures on the needs of the military.
> 
> If the debate is from a purely academic or historical (when the funds and political climate was preferable) point of view, then one can easily argue Pakistan should have invested in an air superiority fighter of some kind or gone all in for the j-10. The jf-17 should have been shelved in favor of the j-10, if the goal was to remain the pursuit of self-sufficiency over present day performance. A foreign aircraft would have been preferable, because I still do not believe the domestic need of Pakistan is ever going to be large enough to allow for a local aviation industry to flourish. The Israelis did it with the Lavi, the Canadians with the Avro Arrow, and the French did so with the Mirage-4000. They shelved national pride in favor of tangibly superior capability.
> 
> What many Pakistanis have failed to acknowledge is the changing environment around us. The Indian military machine is reaching heights that will allow it to wage war against far superior nations than us, from a position of strength. In answer to this growing threat, we come across as decidedly toothless. The j-10 hasn't arrive, the f-16 will be the first casualty of wartime attrition (either through being shot down or in a deliberate attempt of self preservation by the PAF).
> 
> J-10s, were they serving in the PAF at this point, would have provided a far greater capability than jf-17s. The greater payload and range would have had an exponential impact in capability, when dealing with the strategic depth mother nature provides India and its far off airfields. The jf-17, with its limited radius was always destined to be a fighter catering to localized needs.
> 
> Once again, in the realm of reality, there is nothing we can do at this point except rue the complete lack of foresight on the part of the PAF a decade ago. At this point, we don't have the funds to sway any aviation power to offer us aircraft. We are stuck with a short legged fighter incapable of gaining an upper hand over the adversary, another aircraft with limited numbers, and a third that exists only in the fantasies of all those who see a triumphant Pakistan in any future conflict. I have said it many times before, we cannot control against whom we will deploy the jf-17. One of the disadvantages of a defensive war is that the adversary decides when and where to fight. We will be left with no choice but to have the jf-17 flying against the Rafale and mki. Anyone who believes that is a favorable situation, or even one that can be salvageable over a medium term is lying to himself.


1-Kamra is not expanding for nothing, Israelis still developed their industry when they could have the same or better equipment from US without any reservations. Pakistan has seen much worse times than today, our economy was hit by worst floods, marred by severe electricity shortage and still we were able to grow in real terms, Look at Japan and Europe how they have suffered from the shocks. I don't think we are that bad as we perceive ourselves to be.
2-Indian Military machine is expanding rapidly then thats not necessarily bad.For each fighter deployed in Pakistan and China, India has to induct 4 fighters to maintain its deterrence. More burden, more bleeding. PAF's decision to maintain its numbers while pushing the tech frontier of its inventory is fairly understand since it is now more interested in technological superiority than numbers. With rapid spillovers of technology from China and abroad We may expect a compact yet technologically advanced fleet. 
3-Again people here confuse platforms with capabilities.Let me ask you What weapon JFT doesn't have in its arsenal? I always believed that PAF's best bet is to paralyze the IAF forward infrastructure and Deny it Air superiority.All these development in stand off capability should be enough hint about what PAF has aimed at.

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## Storm Force

Re comment : Hasnain



> I always believed that PAF's best bet is to paralyze the IAF forward infrastructure and Deny it Air superiority.All these development in stand off capability should be enough hint about what PAF has aimed at.



Do you think that IAF launch of RISAT spy satalite last week,,, or induction of the Embrar indengious awacs,, and development of the indo israeli MEDUIM range spyder SAM can be attributed to check mating your above scenario....

Paralysing a AIR POWER that boasts Phalcon Awacs, su30mki , mica equipped mirage2000 and soon rafale F3 with meteore BVRs will BE a TALL order even for PLAAF let alone PAF 

Stand off capability is standard military equipment in most half decent air powers globally.

eg

IAF today boasts brahmos & pop eye trubo criuse missles AND will add brahmos hypersonic and nirbhay cruise missles in next 12 months.

From 2014 WHEN RAFALES come they will come with dassults 300km rafale launched scalp cruise missles...

5 different cruise missles all stand off air launched missles


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## Safriz




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## Cool_Soldier

Many prject are in pipeline with China...getting matured in terms f technology.We will get the best available in J1o series.Dont wrry guysThis bird will match Rafale.

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## VelocuR

Safriz said:


> ^^^^J-10b aesa



Nope, some mentioned, it is PESA. Another picture you posted yellow J-10B is PESA radar. 

Confusing.


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## Viper0011.

Storm Force said:


> Re comment : Hasnain
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that IAF launch of RISAT spy satalite last week,,, or induction of the Embrar indengious awacs,, and development of the indo israeli MEDUIM range spyder SAM can be attributed to check mating your above scenario....
> 
> Paralysing a AIR POWER that boasts Phalcon Awacs, su30mki , mica equipped mirage2000 and soon rafale F3 with meteore BVRs will BE a TALL order even for PLAAF let alone PAF
> 
> Stand off capability is standard military equipment in most half decent air powers globally.
> 
> eg
> 
> IAF today boasts brahmos & pop eye trubo criuse missles AND will add brahmos hypersonic and nirbhay cruise missles in next 12 months.
> 
> From 2014 WHEN RAFALES come they will come with dassults 300km rafale launched scalp cruise missles...
> 
> 5 different cruise missles all stand off air launched missles


 

So this whole India - Pak deal is becoming very frustrating as people side track the thread and get into these silly conversations. 

Allow me to put a stop here if common sense can survive. Personally, I am a man against wars between the two countries as majority of their population is poor and people get killed in wars and that's not humane.
Second, it doesn't matter anymore if one side has Superman and the other just 'man'. The bottom line is the scenario that's unthinkable so there shouldn't ever be a war between the two. Unless both countries act stupid and get into the last resort. That's the end of it. Read American think tank assessments. If war breaks out between the two, it'll be MAD!!! So no Su 30, J10B or supermen will help save millions of people, infrastructure, etc. 
Now the spy satellite from India can be (and is already) being countered by a freaking constellation of Chinese spy satellites. Just like the US provides open access to the Israeli's, China does the same with Pak. It won't ever come to open public though.
Now, AWACS, SU 30, Mica, etc, etc.....what are we getting into? SU 30 is a GREAT plane but if it locks someone from 120 miles away and the JFT or J 10B locks'em from the same distance and can fire BVR missiles... it'll be up to the missile tech but both stand equal chances. Infact, the small guy may have a better chance actually. But, You'll rarely see WVR type of encounters as things will be getting hit from 25 to 75 miles away. 
So all AWACS, the 'Super Ultimate 30', Rafale's etc etc will pose numbers but it'll be very difficult to achieve air superiority with triggering a MAD type of a response . At the end of the day, limited scale conflicts is all that may happen. For about 90% of the BVR conflicts..it'll be the radar & missile tech. Similarly, standoff weapons will play a huge role.
Remember, Indian aircraft will need to either come close to the Pakistani airspace or come inside of it so they'll travel ways and will have to run back and run ways if there's a capable BVR missile chasing after it from far away vs. PAF who's aircraft is within a short distance so home turf .... so some benefit there for the PAF.

Now onto stand off cruise missiles, do you really think PA has parked its assets right next to Lahore airport, or Islamabad's parliament building or JFT manufacturing facilities so they can all be taken out in one strike??
It doesn't matter it there are ten Brahmoses or their mothers and dogs accompanying them. There will be significant response.....so the end result is the one NO ONE should have in mind. That will kill a lot of people and that's something we should ALL avoid from discussing out of national / cultural / racial pride.
Let's have a productive discussion with focus on the actual thread. Not who has what, how many and therefor has a bigger di$k. Those days are over in India and Pakistan's case. The future revolves around both these countries working together for the ultimate benefit for their people. 
From a military standpoint, it will be the capable technology not 7 vs. 9 hard points, not supersonic Mig 21 with reduced frame and added tail fin called the 'Brahmos' or Su 30 being able to carry 20 bvr missiles (sarcastic here). 200 SU 30 vs. 100 JFT (small wit Stealthy features, similar quality tech and capable missiles)......who's going to win (again, just a common sense question)? The guy who I could see from 120 miles away or the guys 75 miles away that I can't see or can HARDLY see??? 
You can't shoot a ghost or someone that isn't very visible or is coming in and out of your radar due to small size or reduced rcs....

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## Safriz



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## Abdul Quddoos

orangzaib said:


> So this whole India - Pak deal is becoming very frustrating as people side track the thread and get into these silly conversations.
> 
> Allow me to put a stop here if common sense can survive. Personally, I am a man against wars between the two countries as majority of their population is poor and people get killed in wars and that's not humane.
> Second, it doesn't matter anymore if one side has Superman and the other just 'man'. The bottom line is the scenario that's unthinkable so there shouldn't ever be a war between the two. Unless both countries act stupid and get into the last resort. That's the end of it. Read American think tank assessments. If war breaks out between the two, it'll be MAD!!! So no Su 30, J10B or supermen will help save millions of people, infrastructure, etc.
> Now the spy satellite from India can be (and is already) being countered by a freaking constellation of Chinese spy satellites. Just like the US provides open access to the Israeli's, China does the same with Pak. It won't ever come to open public though.
> Now, AWACS, SU 30, Mica, etc, etc.....what are we getting into? SU 30 is a GREAT plane but if it locks someone from 120 miles away and the JFT or J 10B locks'em from the same distance and can fire BVR missiles... it'll be up to the missile tech but both stand equal chances. Infact, the small guy may have a better chance actually. But, You'll rarely see WVR type of encounters as things will be getting hit from 25 to 75 miles away.
> So all AWACS, the 'Super Ultimate 30', Rafale's etc etc will pose numbers but it'll be very difficult to achieve air superiority with triggering a MAD type of a response . At the end of the day, limited scale conflicts is all that may happen. For about 90% of the BVR conflicts..it'll be the radar & missile tech. Similarly, standoff weapons will play a huge role.
> Remember, Indian aircraft will need to either come close to the Pakistani airspace or come inside of it so they'll travel ways and will have to run back and run ways if there's a capable BVR missile chasing after it from far away vs. PAF who's aircraft is within a short distance so home turf .... so some benefit there for the PAF.
> 
> Now onto stand off cruise missiles, do you really think PA has parked its assets right next to Lahore airport, or Islamabad's parliament building or JFT manufacturing facilities so they can all be taken out in one strike??
> It doesn't matter it there are ten Brahmoses or their mothers and dogs accompanying them. There will be significant response.....so the end result is the one NO ONE should have in mind. That will kill a lot of people and that's something we should ALL avoid from discussing out of national / cultural / racial pride.
> Let's have a productive discussion with focus on the actual thread. Not who has what, how many and therefor has a bigger di$k. Those days are over in India and Pakistan's case. The future revolves around both these countries working together for the ultimate benefit for their people.
> From a military standpoint, it will be the capable technology not 7 vs. 9 hard points, not supersonic Mig 21 with reduced frame and added tail fin called the 'Brahmos' or Su 30 being able to carry 20 bvr missiles (sarcastic here). 200 SU 30 vs. 100 JFT (small wit Stealthy features, similar quality tech and capable missiles)......who's going to win (again, just a common sense question)? The guy who I could see from 120 miles away or the guys 75 miles away that I can't see or can HARDLY see???
> You can't shoot a ghost or someone that isn't very visible or is coming in and out of your radar due to small size or reduced rcs....


 
Hypersonic reply..

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## Safriz

RaptorRX707 said:


> Nope, some mentioned, it is PESA. Another picture you posted yellow J-10B is PESA radar.
> 
> Confusing.



you are on about this thread?
http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/109399-j-10b-aesa-pesa-radar.html


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## Farooqi1

Cool_Soldier said:


> Many prject are in pipeline with China...getting matured in terms f technology.We will get the best available in J1o series.Dont wrry guysThis bird will match Rafale.



Insha Allaah



Storm Force said:


> Re comment : Hasnain
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that IAF launch of RISAT spy satalite last week,,, or induction of the Embrar indengious awacs,, and development of the indo israeli MEDUIM range spyder SAM can be attributed to check mating your above scenario....
> 
> Paralysing a AIR POWER that boasts Phalcon Awacs, su30mki , mica equipped mirage2000 and soon rafale F3 with meteore BVRs will BE a TALL order even for PLAAF let alone PAF
> 
> Stand off capability is standard military equipment in most half decent air powers globally.
> 
> eg
> 
> IAF today boasts brahmos & pop eye trubo criuse missles AND will add brahmos hypersonic and nirbhay cruise missles in next 12 months.
> 
> From 2014 WHEN RAFALES come they will come with dassults 300km rafale launched scalp cruise missles...
> 
> 5 different cruise missles all stand off air launched missles




Keep on dreaming my man keep on dreaming. We will hit you the way you can't imagine.


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## SBD-3

Farooqi1 said:


> How are we going to get the air superiority when we don't have any projects in place? Every time I bring in JFT every one start saying that air superiority was not intended purpose of JFT.


What is meant by air superiority? An air superiority fighter is a fighter that is developed with A2A combat in mind. F-15 was introduced as an air superiority fighter, F-16 started its career as an air superiority fighter, Mig-29 was also an air superiority fighter initially and so was the J-10. But don't you wonder as they all evolved, they gradually became multirole fighters (F-15E, F-16 C/D/E/F, Mig-29 OVT,SMT etc and J-10A and now J-10B). Multirole capabilities require more comprehensive avionics package, more complex software, more sophisticated radar and more balanced design for smoother performance in all speed realms.A multirole fighter can fire a BVR but an airsuperiority fighter can't do precision engagement, Wild Wiesel ops and anti ship operations. I hope it helps.



RaptorRX707 said:


> Nope, some mentioned, it is PESA. Another picture you posted yellow J-10B is PESA radar.
> 
> Confusing.


It is AESA as per manufacturer....PESA was speculation at when first pictures of J-10B radar were leaked.



Storm Force said:


> Re comment : Hasnain
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that IAF launch of RISAT spy satalite last week,,, or induction of the Embrar indengious awacs,, and development of the indo israeli MEDUIM range spyder SAM can be attributed to check mating your above scenario....
> 
> Paralysing a AIR POWER that boasts Phalcon Awacs, su30mki , mica equipped mirage2000 and soon rafale F3 with meteore BVRs will BE a TALL order even for PLAAF let alone PAF
> 
> Stand off capability is standard military equipment in most half decent air powers globally.
> 
> eg
> 
> IAF today boasts brahmos & pop eye trubo criuse missles AND will add brahmos hypersonic and nirbhay cruise missles in next 12 months.
> 
> From 2014 WHEN RAFALES come they will come with dassults 300km rafale launched scalp cruise missles...
> 
> 5 different cruise missles all stand off air launched missles


Again....well hez back....I only see around 25% of your post relevant in current scenario, Rest are the discounted speculations, hopes, dates and time lines....no wonder somebody once suggested a good name for you....

@Farooqi Sahib
You are causing redundancy by repeating the same points over and over in different threads.....Keep any specific idea for relevant thread instead of flooding different threads with essentially same idea.

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## Farooqi1

hasnain0099 said:


> What is meant by air superiority? An air superiority fighter is a fighter that is developed with A2A combat in mind. F-15 was introduced as an air superiority fighter, F-16 started its career as an air superiority fighter, Mig-29 was also an air superiority fighter initially and so was the J-10. But don't you wonder as they all evolved, they gradually became multirole fighters (F-15E, F-16 C/D/E/F, Mig-29 OVT,SMT etc and J-10A and now J-10B). Multirole capabilities require more comprehensive avionics package, more complex software, more sophisticated radar and more balanced design for smoother performance in all speed realms.A multirole fighter can fire a BVR but an airsuperiority fighter can't do precision engagement, Wild Wiesel ops and anti ship operations. I hope it helps.
> 
> 
> It is AESA as per manufacturer....PESA was speculation at when first pictures of J-10B radar were leaked.
> 
> 
> Again....well hez back....I only see around 25% of your post relevant in current scenario, Rest are the discounted speculations, hopes, dates and time lines....no wonder somebody once suggested a good name for you....
> 
> @Farooqi Sahib
> You are causing redundancy by repeating the same points over and over in different threads.....Keep any specific idea for relevant thread instead of flooding different threads with essentially same idea.



Hasan Sahib

Your advise is well taken. But unfortunately to me both threads are of same importance and relevancy. Defense of Pakistan. But I will keep it in mind.

Now coming back to air superiority, of all the combat planes the one assigned the role of air superiority seems to me in specifications and design far superior then the multirole assigned fighters. May be because I am a non-technical person that is why I am not understanding the concept. That is where the role of senior members becomes vital. Any way I will keep on reading without posting any further comments

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## Storm Force

HASNAIN.you commented thatonly.25% of my post was relevant...which is fine.
But remember paf has not ordered j10 or fc2o as per senior pdf remarks recently..we have 378 pages of pure speculation. You suggested stick to current ....well current is.no j10 and only 40 block one jft and 63 f16.....v.270 su30mki mirage2000 and mig29......

Discount works both ways in a fair and non biased forum debate


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## Farooqi1

Storm Force said:


> HASNAIN.you commented thatonly.25% of my post was relevant...which is fine.
> But remember paf has not ordered j10 or fc2o as per senior pdf remarks recently..we have 378 pages of pure speculation. You suggested stick to current ....well current is.no j10 and only 40 block one jft and 63 f16.....v.270 su30mki mirage2000 and mig29......
> 
> Discount works both ways in a fair and non biased forum debate



You are not debating, you are just bragging and bragging and bragging. Remind you that we have enough nuclear capability that would easily take care of 270 SU 30MKI mirage and Mig and what ever you would have, if need ever be arises. We didn't sacrifice to keep them just in the shelf. It is none of your business weather we have ordered FC-20 or not and how and where the money would come from.

If I were you and as a human being I would take care your Aids infected population and millions of those poor who are spending their nights on the foot paths of Calcutta and Bombay.

270 SUMKI would not take care of their basic needs and neither they pose any threats to us.

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## The SC

Here is an interesting article for comparison:

New Delhi: Two years after the former Air Chief sent a warning to the Government about the Air Force losing parity with its Pakistani counterpart, things are still not completely looking up.

In the midst of tensions between India and Pakistan, the IAF is working with one of its lowest squadron strengths - 32 as opposed to a sanctioned 39. The numbers count specially in a full blown conflict.

In his letter to the government - details of which were accessed by CNN IBN and first telecast on Sep 2006 - the then Air Chief Air Marshall Tyagi had talked about the declining combat strength

He wrote, "Unless immediate steps are taken to arrest the reduction in Indian Air Force's force levels, the Nation will for the first time in its history, lose the conventional military edge over Pakistan".

Seven months later in one of the fastest decisions, the government gave the go ahead for 40 Sukhoi M30s. It could be the end of 2009 before the planes finally enter service.

Other programs like the deal to purchase the 126 Multi Role Aircraft and the Light Combat Aircraft could take several years before they fructify.

Therefore, for the moment the IAF is struggling with one of its lowest aircraft strengths.

The depleting force levels could affect the capability of the Air Force to carry out wide scale operations. The existing aircraft are also far from satisfactory

The MiG-21s have already lived their life. Only six of the 13 squadrons will remain in service after 2012 and MiG-27s are being upgraded

A deal to upgrade the MiG-29s has been signed but could be three years before they arrive and the Mirage-2000s are also due for upgradation.

Even with this the IAF has an edge over its Pakistani counterpart. But its dominance in the sub-continent's airspace and the crucial roles its played is certainly under threat.

Are We Battle Ready: IAF is not prepared - India News - IBNLive

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## alimobin memon

Chinese tech is some what different from western and russian so radar on j10B maybe looking PESA it might not be, As far as i know delta wing of mirage and j10 is little different but very different perspective.


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## MastanKhan

alimobin memon said:


> Chinese tech is some what different from western and russian so radar on j10B maybe looking PESA it might not be, As far as i know delta wing of mirage and j10 is little different but very different perspective.



Hi,

Oh---that is an interesting statement---could you please elaborate on it.



The SC said:


> Here is an interesting article for comparison:
> 
> New Delhi: Two years after the former Air Chief sent a warning to the Government about the Air Force losing parity with its Pakistani counterpart, things are still not completely looking up.
> 
> In the midst of tensions between India and Pakistan, the IAF is working with one of its lowest squadron strengths - 32 as opposed to a sanctioned 39. The numbers count specially in a full blown conflict.
> 
> In his letter to the government - details of which were accessed by CNN IBN and first telecast on Sep 2006 - the then Air Chief Air Marshall Tyagi had talked about the declining combat strength
> 
> He wrote, "Unless immediate steps are taken to arrest the reduction in Indian Air Force's force levels, the Nation will for the first time in its history, lose the conventional military edge over Pakistan".
> 
> Seven months later in one of the fastest decisions, the government gave the go ahead for 40 Sukhoi M30s. It could be the end of 2009 before the planes finally enter service.
> 
> Other programs like the deal to purchase the 126 Multi Role Aircraft and the Light Combat Aircraft could take several years before they fructify.
> 
> Therefore, for the moment the IAF is struggling with one of its lowest aircraft strengths.
> 
> The depleting force levels could affect the capability of the Air Force to carry out wide scale operations. The existing aircraft are also far from satisfactory
> 
> The MiG-21s have already lived their life. Only six of the 13 squadrons will remain in service after 2012 and MiG-27s are being upgraded
> 
> A deal to upgrade the MiG-29s has been signed but could be three years before they arrive and the Mirage-2000s are also due for upgradation.
> 
> Even with this the IAF has an edge over its Pakistani counterpart. But its dominance in the sub-continent's airspace and the crucial roles its played is certainly under threat.
> 
> Are We Battle Ready: IAF is not prepared - India News - IBNLive



Hi,

The sqdrn capacity is very deceptive----it is for the layman----but the real question is what is the load carrying capacity of these 32 sqdrn's against the pakistani 26 sqdrns----.

I mean to say---only the SU 30's alone would possibly have as much or more load carrying capabilities than all of the pak air force sqdrns ( or very close to it ).

Can some put some numbers on this board---thank you.

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## BelligerentPacifist

MK squadron size might be even more significant: the IAF person is counting theirs as full squadrons of 18-21 planes while the PAF's are at 14-planes strengths.


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## alimobin memon

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Oh---that is an interesting statement---could you please elaborate on it.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The sqdrn capacity is very deceptive----it is for the layman----but the real question is what is the load carrying capacity of these 32 sqdrn's against the pakistani 26 sqdrns----.
> 
> I mean to say---only the SU 30's alone would possibly have as much or more load carrying capabilities than all of the pak air force sqdrns ( or very close to it ).
> 
> Can some put some numbers on this board---thank you.



There was event when j10A pics were leaked back 2001 or 2000 but the radar that was shown on the picture was never integrated i know what i am saying , so what i am trying to say either this is AESA or it this radar is not J10B's True Radar that need to be integrated . AESA has many Radio frequencies where as PESA has central radio frequency.


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## Manticore

The SC said:


> .....
> 
> Even with this the IAF has an edge over its Pakistani counterpart. But its dominance in the sub-continent's airspace and the crucial roles its played is certainly under threat.
> 
> Are We Battle Ready: IAF is not prepared - India News - IBNLive



these kind of cunning articles which show iaf vulnerability are published to pressure gov. to release even MORE funds for the airforce ...

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## sancho

ANTIBODY said:


> these kind of cunning articles which show iaf vulnerability are published to pressure gov. to release even MORE funds for the airforce ...



Or to sell news! The media in India is not that different than western medias, because only sensational news that keeps people talking is good news for them, no matter if there are real problems or not.

Just stated it in another thread, one has to understand that the total IAF fighter numbers are getting lower, while the capability is rising, because only old single role fighters will be phased out, while upgraded and new added fighters will be fully multi role capable. Instead of using Mig 27 for strikes, escorted with Mig 21s, you now use just 1 multi role aircraft. So the squadron numbers don't really tell you much about the real capability here.


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## ANG

Storm Force said:


> IF YOU ARE A PAF JFT pilot or F16 pilot which would rather face
> 
> 500 mig21/23/ 27 & jaguars
> 
> or
> 
> 300 su30mki mirage2000 mig29
> 
> India cannot have a AIR FORCE of 39sdqs AGAIN until the TEJAS arrives in large nos
> 
> SU30MKI & RAFALE are too expensive to buy in bulk.


 
Hi, regardless of either of the proposed battle orders you have listed, the PAF would not last long with their current antiquated inventory. Other than the small number of trojan horse filled F-16s and small number of JF-17s, currently the PAF does not have any heavy air-superiority fighter.

I am still baffled at how long the PAF high command has dragged their feet on buying a heavy fighter like the J-10B to combat the IAF threat. These guys still keep repeating phrase like "our defense is impregnable" like a broken record, and hopefully the OBL raid gave them a good wake up call.

The PAF needs to make a decision on the J-10B and start investing in it or seriously try to get the J-11B. They could pay Russia royalties to not anger them about intellectual property issues related to China copying the Su-27.

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## ziaulislam

india will have 42 sq containing 120 mirages/mig29, 270 su 30s,100 odd PAKFA (total of 250),100 odd LCA ,120 odd MRCA,100 odd jaugers/mig27=810=42 sq
indian chief claimed they will get the number by 2020 when MRCA and LCA are completed

as orangzeb put it 150-250 thunders spread over vast network of bases and even motor ways will provide an excellent BVR platform along with awec support and possible SAM support it can easily counter any fourth gen aircrfts till the threshold of nuclear war is breached

this what NATO and swedish did against Russia.

the real deal for PAF after getting 50 odd fc-20 and jfts will be HOW TO COUNTER the FIFTH gen aircrfts . thats what i think PAF mind will be thinking on.


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## The Great One

ziaulislam said:


> india by 2025 will have 42 sq containing 120 mirages/mig29, 270 su 30s,100 odd PAKFA (total of 250),100 odd LCA ,120 odd MRCA,100 odd jaugers/mig27=810=42 sq
> indian chief claimed they will get the number by 2020 when MRCA and LCA are completed,as they wills till be oeprating mig 27,some mig21 and all upgraded jaugers by 2020
> 
> as orangzeb put it 150-250 thunders spread over vast network of bases and even motor ways will provide an excellent BVR platform along with awac support and possible SAM support it can easily counter any fourth gen aircrfts till the threshold of nuclear war is breached
> 
> this what NATO and swedish did against Russia.
> 
> the real deal for PAF after getting 50 odd fc-20 and jfts will be HOW TO COUNTER the FIFTH gen aircrfts . thats what i think PAF mind will be thinking on.


Why don't you first think about how you are going to counter the 4++ Generation Fighters Super 30 and Rafale before jumping your ball$.


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## fatman17

ANG said:


> Hi, regardless of either of the proposed battle orders you have listed, the PAF would not last long with their current antiquated inventory. Other than the small number of trojan horse filled F-16s and small number of JF-17s, currently the PAF does not have any heavy air-superiority fighter.
> 
> I am still baffled at how long the PAF high command has dragged their feet on buying a heavy fighter like the J-10B to combat the IAF threat. These guys still keep repeating phrase like "our defense is impregnable" like a broken record, and hopefully the OBL raid gave them a good wake up call.
> 
> *The PAF needs to make a decision on the J-10B* and start investing in it or seriously try to get the J-11B. They could pay Russia royalties to not anger them about intellectual property issues related to China copying the Su-27.



its not PAF's decision. if the chinese cannot get a export licence, remember these a/c are powered by russian engines. the chinese engine is still a few years away from 'mass production' ca.2016.



Storm Force said:


> IF YOU ARE A PAF JFT pilot or F16 pilot which would rather face
> 
> 500 mig21/23/ 27 & jaguars
> 
> or
> 
> 300 su30mki mirage2000 mig29
> 
> India cannot have a AIR FORCE of 39sdqs AGAIN until the TEJAS arrives in large nos
> 
> * SU30MKI & RAFALE are too expensive to buy in bulk*.



243 SU30's and 180 rafale is not considered 'bulk' by you!!!!!


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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> its not PAF's decision. if the chinese cannot get a export licence, remember these a/c are powered by russian engines. the chinese engine is still a few years away from 'mass production' ca.2016.


I think WS-10A (the one which powers J-11B/15) has already gone in mass production. However, the same cannot be said for J-10B whose engine (WS-10B?) is still in experimental stage. The news of Chinese importing AL-31FN engines from Russia should be a hint that WS-10 on J-10 is still some distence away. Thats why we haven't seen much activity on J-10 front as we see on JFT since WS-13 has been online for quite sometime and as the Chinese become enough confident, the sales are likely to materialize.

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## nwmalik

ziaulislam said:


> india will have 42 sq containing 120 mirages/mig29, 270 su 30s,100 odd PAKFA (total of 250),100 odd LCA ,120 odd MRCA,100 odd jaugers/mig27=810=42 sq
> indian chief claimed they will get the number by 2020 when MRCA and LCA are completed
> 
> as orangzeb put it 150-250 thunders spread over vast network of bases and even motor ways will provide an excellent BVR platform along with awec support and possible SAM support it can easily counter any fourth gen aircrfts till the threshold of nuclear war is breached
> 
> this what NATO and swedish did against Russia.
> 
> the real deal for PAF after getting 50 odd fc-20 and jfts will be HOW TO COUNTER the FIFTH gen aircrfts . thats what i think PAF mind will be thinking on.



PEACE peace and only peace
Strong economy ofcourse is essential even to have peace.

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## Farooqi1

fatman17 said:


> its not PAF's decision. if the chinese cannot get a export licence, remember these a/c are powered by russian engines. the chinese engine is still a few years away from 'mass production' ca.2016.
> 
> 
> 
> 243 SU30's and 180 rafale is not considered 'bulk' by you!!!!!




China is willing to export J11B. J-10B is not ready yet. We need to get J-11B ASAP if somehow from somewhere we could get the financing. Our force should be comprise of JFT, F-16, J-10B and J-11B. There is no other way to live with dignity and to bring the otherside to the peace table as per your terms.

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## Donatello

Farooqi1 said:


> China is willing to export J11B. J-10B is not ready yet. We need to get J-11B ASAP if somehow from somewhere we could get the financing. Our force should be comprise of JFT, F-16, J-10B and J-11B. There is no other way to live with dignity and to bring the otherside to the peace table as per your terms.



Farooqi,

You are just beating about the bush. Same points all over again, in every thread.

Did you go through the entire thread?


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## Farooqi1

Donatello said:


> Farooqi,
> 
> You are just beating about the bush. Same points all over again, in every thread.
> 
> Did you go through the entire thread?



Donatello

Some times beating around the bush could do the trick. I am seeing more and more people expressing their views along the same line as mine. Well I will try not to beat around the bush anymore.



nwmalik said:


> PEACE peace and only peace
> Strong economy ofcourse is essential even to have peace.



You know that is my dream too. Peace and peace only.


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## Dazzler

Storm Force said:


> Nishan
> 
> IAF will induct 126 rafale beginning 2014 and lasting 7 years. Infact I DONT SEE 126 RAFALE until 2022 in iaf.
> 
> How ever the SU30MKI is going really well 150+ TODAY and 272 by 2018 WITH EASE
> 
> no way will IAF buy 200 rafale financially not possible at over $100m each for block 3 version.



Storm Force...

Note: If you came up with your IAF rhetoric and numbers on a PAF thread again, i will forward my recommendation to permanently ban you on this forum. I have had enough of your fantasy posts!! 

Post reported

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## pakfoj

I have a quick question: Not to be highly detailed but is the J-10 fairly equal to F-16. I know PAF plans to induct some of these jets because they is much more advanced than JF-17. But generally speaking will it be the front line aircraft along with F-16 for PAF. 
Kindly answer!


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## Safriz

pakfoj said:


> I have a quick question: Not to be highly detailed but is the J-10 fairly equal to F-16. I know PAF plans to induct some of these jets because they is much more advanced than JF-17. But generally speaking will it be the front line aircraft along with F-16 for PAF.
> Kindly answer!



detailed discussion here

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/38696-j-10b-vs-f-16c-d-3.html

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## SBD-3

nabil_05 said:


> Storm Force...
> 
> Note: If you came up with your IAF rhetoric and numbers on a PAF thread again, i will forward my recommendation to permanently ban you on this forum. I have had enough of your fantasy posts!!
> 
> Post reported


Had i been in your place, i would rather recomend his name being changed to "fantasy discounter"

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## The SC

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Oh---that is an interesting statement---could you please elaborate on it.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The sqdrn capacity is very deceptive----it is for the layman----but the real question is what is the load carrying capacity of these 32 sqdrn's against the pakistani 26 sqdrns----.
> 
> I mean to say---only the SU 30's alone would possibly have as much or more load carrying capabilities than all of the pak air force sqdrns ( or very close to it ).
> 
> Can some put some numbers on this board---thank you.



Pakistan has missiles to compensate for that, they probably count their squadrons mostly for air combat.


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## Saquib

What will PAF name FC-20 how about he mythical bird of the tales of the Arabian Nights, the Roc.


wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackburn_Roc


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## SBD-3

Saquib said:


> *What will PAF name FC-20* how about he mythical bird of the tales of the Arabian Nights, the Roc.
> 
> 
> wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackburn_Roc


FC-20 is the designation used by PAF rather than CAC or PLAAF. The only Known designations are
FC-1---------JFT
FBC-1---------JH-7A
FTC-2000---------Significantly Modified and Redesigned F-7 for training purposes. 
Russians used FC-10 for J-10 but neither CAC not PLAAF has ever used this word.
PAF uses Vanguard with its FC-20..


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## MastanKhan

The SC said:


> Pakistan has missiles to compensate for that, they probably count their squadrons mostly for air combat.



Name a few---.


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## Safriz

Compiled from multiple sources..


The delay in mass production and export of j-10b is connected with development of chinese ws-10 engine.
The PLAAF currently doesn't use ws-10 engine in any if their main aircrafts,as none can accommodate ws-10,. Only j-10b can be fitted with ws-10 engine.
The previous engine manufacturing facility was having priblems in mass producing ws-10 engines,so the production was recently moved to new location in Guangzhou.
Same facility will produce the ws-15 engine for Chinese top dog the J-20.
We have seen recent videos of j-10b being tested with new engine,alongside j-20 . PLAAF is comfortably using j-10a and in no urgency to replace them,so don't need to rush the mass production of ws-10 engine.
It is plausible that mass production of ws-10 is tied with whenever ws-15 engine matures and is certified for use in j-20,and we may see j-10b and j-20 entering final production together,and that may be a few years away.


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## alimobin memon

Safriz said:


> Compiled from multiple sources..
> 
> 
> The delay in mass production and export of j-10b is connected with development of chinese ws-10 engine.
> The PLAAF currently doesn't use ws-10 engine in any if their main aircrafts,as none can accommodate ws-10,. Only j-10b can be fitted with ws-10 engine.
> The previous engine manufacturing facility was having priblems in mass producing ws-10 engines,so the production was recently moved to new location in Guangzhou.
> Same facility will produce the ws-15 engine for Chinese top dog the J-20.
> We have seen recent videos of j-10b being tested with new engine,alongside j-20 . PLAAF is comfortably using j-10a and in no urgency to replace them,so don't need to rush the mass production of ws-10 engine.
> It is plausible that mass production of ws-10 is tied with whenever ws-15 engine matures and is certified for use in j-20,and we may see j-10b and j-20 entering final production together,and that may be a few years away.



crap!! I was told that the problem was with thrust ... and they have the solution


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Safriz said:


> Compiled from multiple sources..
> 
> 
> The delay in mass production and export of j-10b is connected with development of chinese ws-10 engine.
> The PLAAF currently doesn't use ws-10 engine in any if their main aircrafts,as none can accommodate ws-10,. Only j-10b can be fitted with ws-10 engine.
> The previous engine manufacturing facility was having priblems in mass producing ws-10 engines,so the production was recently moved to new location in Guangzhou.
> Same facility will produce the ws-15 engine for Chinese top dog the J-20.
> We have seen recent videos of j-10b being tested with new engine,alongside j-20 . PLAAF is comfortably using j-10a and in no urgency to replace them,so don't need to rush the mass production of ws-10 engine.
> It is plausible that mass production of ws-10 is tied with whenever ws-15 engine matures and is certified for use in j-20,and we may see j-10b and j-20 entering final production together,and that may be a few years away.


but this thing is not good for us , as we are in dare need of j-10bs ......
j-10b need to be part of PAF in coming years in order counter growing air threats


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## ziaulislam

i thought ws-10 was already stating to come in J-11???

and do you think J-20 will b ready in a few years!!?

how come, j10,j20 be ready together?!! i think J20 still has much time for induction,unless its rushed ofcourse.


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## Safriz

ziaulislam said:


> i thought ws-10 was already stating to come in J-11???
> 
> and do you think J-20 will b ready in a few years!!?
> 
> how come, j10,j20 be ready together?!! i think J20 still has much time for induction,unless its rushed ofcourse.



They are producing a limited numbers of WS-10 improved version...
But that cannot even fulfill their domestic needs at the moment and export comes after domestic demands have been fulfilled.
Recently the production has been shifter to Guangzhou,the chinese industrial hub..Lets see if that ratchets up the production.


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## ziaulislam

what i meant that do newer J-11s use ws-10?


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## Beast

ziaulislam said:


> what i meant that do newer J-11s use ws-10?



Yes..

The new WS-10A uses on J-10B will feature much higher thrust of more than 13200kg. Precisely meeting the higher thrust is the problem for J-10B late induction into PLAAF. Latest info is J-10B will not just be testbed for J-20 but will enter service soon. Rumour a squadron is currently in GAD test centre under evaluation and will be certify soon to enter service soon.


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## Safriz

The export version FC-20 will use WS-10B engine which is better than WS-10A..
The engine is in the improvement phase alongside the improvements being made for J-20 in Ws-15 engines..
We may have to wait a bit more but we will see a very powerful and reliable machine flying in Pakistani skies...

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## Safriz




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## alimobin memon

Safriz said:


> The export version FC-20 will use WS-10B engine which is better than WS-10A..
> The engine is in the improvement phase alongside the improvements being made for J-20 in Ws-15 engines..
> We may have to wait a bit more but we will see a very powerful and reliable machine flying in Pakistani skies...



down one is latest j10 ...


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## fjavaid

Safriz said:


>


 
Is it TVC engine ..... ???????
the exhaust nozzle sure does look like a TVC nozzle .....


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## SBD-3

> These are among the 30 Chinese Academy of Engineering Academicians invited to tour PLAAF units and a GAD testing facility, the footage also shows JH7 814 and a Y8 GX, which had its rear ramp open but clearly partitioned off inside.


Notice the goldish color of Canopy

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## razgriz19

alimobin memon said:


> down one is latest j10 ...



no, the top one is. look at the serial number.


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## ChineseLuver

razgriz19 said:


> no, the top one is. look at the serial number.



no,the one below with IRST is.

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## alimobin memon

That is what I am saying the above one is also not equipped with IRST if u look closer it IFR probe

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## DANGER-ZONE

>



J-10B 1035 is the latest Prototype equipped with AESA Radar.

Notice the Distinguishing points. 

1 - WS-10 Engine, See the Nozzle of 1035 it is WS-10 .......... 1031 has AL-31F.
2 - Canard front edge covering / protection against Radar rays on 1035 ....... 1031 No such Structure.
3 - Refuelling Probe + IRST at 1035 ....... Only IRST at 1031.
4 - No Pilot tube at 1035 because this PT is a sort of LSP or for weapon testing ...... Pilot tube is present at 1031.

1031 took first flight in 2009 and 1035 in 2011.

I hope this will clarify.

This will help you educate about J-10B development 


> The latest 1035 prototype of the J-10B (K/JJ10B?) was photographed at CAC airfield in July 2011, revealing the indigenous WS-10B (?) turbofan engine. This much improved variant (1031 prototype) made its maiden flight on December 23, 2008, powered by a Russian AL-31FN engine. The improvements include a DSI/bump engine inlet which not only cuts weight but also reduces RCS, after a similar design was first tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. The aircraft also features a J-11B style IRST/LR and a wide-angle holographic HUD. IRST allows passive detection of enemy aircraft, making J-10B more stealthy in combat. Its nose appears flatter too, similar to that of American F-16, housing fire-control radar which could be an X-band AESA developed by the 14th Institute (track 10, engage 4 simultaneously), the first of such type ever being developed for a Chinese fighter aircraft, giving J-10B a stronger multi-target engagement and ECCM capability. An ECM antenna can also be seen ahead of the canard foreplane. Two large pods housing testing equipments were attached under the wings. The tip of vertical tailfin was redesigned as well, featuring a large fairing containing communication and ECM antennas, which resembles that of French Mirage 2000. A rear facing MAWS sensor can be seen underneath the parachute boom. A similar system was tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. RAM coating is also expected in certain areas such as engine inlet and wing leading edges to reduce RCS. The aircraft may be fitted with CFTs in the future to further extend its range. All these improvements suggest that J-10B is equipped with a new generation of integrated electronic system, ranging from radar to EW system. Its mission may be changed from air-superiority to multi-role, such as CAS or EW. For air-superiority mission, normally 6 AAMs (PL-12x4 + PL-8x2, PL-12s are carried underneath the twin-rail launch pylon) can be carried. For CAS mission, normally 2 KD-88 AGMs or LS-500J LGBs can be carried. In addition, the aircraft is expected to be powered eventually by a WS-10B turbofan. Overall J-10B is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60. The 03 prototype first flew in August 2009, with the pitot tube removed from the nose tip. Both 1031 & 1034 prototypes are currently being tested at CFTE. J-10B is likely to serve as a testbed for various advanced technologies adopted by the 4th generation J-20 (see below) currently under development at CAC thus may not enter the service in large quantity with PLAAF. The production of J-10B is expected to be imminent (07 batch?). The initial batches are likely to be powered by Russian AL-31FN engines due to the low productivity rate of WS-10B. A further upgraded semi-stealth variant (J-10C?) might be developed as well but no details are available.
> - Last Updated 3/5/12
> http://cnair.top81.cn/J-10_J-11_FC-1.htm

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## unicorn




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## fatman17

Monday, June 25, 2012

*SAC's gamble?* 


OpEd on the China Airforce's procurement program. 


SAC's gamble? 

Ok, in my opinion, the future lightweight fighter of the PLAAF/PLANAF, the most profitable military procurement in Chinese history that will see a design replacing the J-7, Q-5 and J-8 and also eventually substituting the J-10A in production, will rest on the J-10B and SAC's new design. 

The J-20 could turn out to be too expensive. This would likely limit the number of aircraft the PLAAF will purchase. The complexities of the aircraft will also mean that there could very well be delays down the road and it would prohibit rapid production. Thus the PLAAF's future will still rely largely on more affordable light to medium designs in a kind of high-low mix. This is where SAC's new design comes in. While it may have lost in the design of the future air superiority medium to heavy fighter, SAC is now armed with a lot of knowledge to apply to a lighter design. 

The only problem to SAC's gamble is the J-10. PLAAF and PLANAF are firmly committed to the J-10, having received over 200 copies. Although SAC's new design is a generation ahead of the J-10, CAC has smartly evolved the design into the J-10B. It seems that the PLAAF is already evaluating the J-10B (orders imminent?). 

While the J-10B is not as stealthy, its design is based on relatively mature technology from nearly two decades of J-10 development married to more modern subsystems that CAC could have integrated onto the J-20. The J-10 seems to be well-liked by the PLA, with more units converting and its capability as a multirole fighter was also briefly demonstrated with its delivery of a pair of LGBs in last year's Peace Mission exercise. I would regard the J-10B as very similar to the SAAB Grippen in terms of size, capabilities, technological level, and probably cost. 

SAC's design could be slightly more advanced than the J-10B. Its greatest design edge is its stealthy low-RCS design. Depending on what sort of engine it uses, the new aircraft could possess a greater power-to-weight ratio than the J-10 and even achieve advanced combat aircraft features like supercruise. However, SAC is virtually starting from scratch. This means it will take time to catch up with where the J-10B program is currently at. 

And even if SAC's design is more advanced and capable than the J-10B, the PLAAF may not necessarily go for it. Take for instance the PLAAF's preference for the JL-9 over the L-15, even though the L-15 represented a quantum leap over the former. The J-10B would win brownie points for being compatible with a lot of J-10A components, and it would not require a radical investment in new production facilities, maintenance tools, training simulation systems, etc. 

How about the export market? SAC could promote its newest design strategically as a "clean slate" design where foreign customisation and input can be incorporated from the start. SAC could replicate Korea's approach with the KF-X, inviting partners like Turkey to be a program participant. However, with most big buyers of new generation aircraft seemingly committed, especially Turkey and Brazil, it seems that the only likely partner would be Pakistan.

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## sancho

danger-zone said:


> J-10B 1035 is the latest Prototype equipped with AESA Radar.
> 
> Notice the Distinguishing points.
> 
> 1 - WS-10 Engine, See the Nozzle of 1035 it is WS-10 .......... 1031 has AL-31F.
> *2 - Canard front edge covering / protection against Radar rays on 1035 ....... 1031 No such Structure.*



From the article you posted:



> *An ECM antenna can also be seen ahead of the canard foreplane*. Two large pods housing testing equipments were attached under the wings



RWRs?


----------



## Shadow_Hunter

fatman17 said:


> Monday, June 25, 2012
> 
> *SAC's gamble?*
> 
> 
> OpEd on the China Airforce's procurement program.
> 
> 
> SAC's gamble?
> 
> Ok, in my opinion, the future lightweight fighter of the PLAAF/PLANAF, the most profitable military procurement in Chinese history that will see a design replacing the J-7, Q-5 and J-8 and also eventually substituting the J-10A in production, will rest on the J-10B and SAC's new design.
> 
> The J-20 could turn out to be too expensive. This would likely limit the number of aircraft the PLAAF will purchase. The complexities of the aircraft will also mean that there could very well be delays down the road and it would prohibit rapid production. Thus the PLAAF's future will still rely largely on more affordable light to medium designs in a kind of high-low mix. This is where SAC's new design comes in. While it may have lost in the design of the future air superiority medium to heavy fighter, SAC is now armed with a lot of knowledge to apply to a lighter design.
> 
> The only problem to SAC's gamble is the J-10. PLAAF and PLANAF are firmly committed to the J-10, having received over 200 copies. Although SAC's new design is a generation ahead of the J-10, CAC has smartly evolved the design into the J-10B. It seems that the PLAAF is already evaluating the J-10B (orders imminent?).
> 
> While the J-10B is not as stealthy, its design is based on relatively mature technology from nearly two decades of J-10 development married to more modern subsystems that CAC could have integrated onto the J-20. The J-10 seems to be well-liked by the PLA, with more units converting and its capability as a multirole fighter was also briefly demonstrated with its delivery of a pair of LGBs in last year's Peace Mission exercise. I would regard the J-10B as very similar to the SAAB Grippen in terms of size, capabilities, technological level, and probably cost.
> 
> SAC's design could be slightly more advanced than the J-10B. Its greatest design edge is its stealthy low-RCS design. Depending on what sort of engine it uses, the new aircraft could possess a greater power-to-weight ratio than the J-10 and even achieve advanced combat aircraft features like supercruise. However, SAC is virtually starting from scratch. This means it will take time to catch up with where the J-10B program is currently at.
> 
> And even if SAC's design is more advanced and capable than the J-10B, the PLAAF may not necessarily go for it. Take for instance the PLAAF's preference for the JL-9 over the L-15, even though the L-15 represented a quantum leap over the former. The J-10B would win brownie points for being compatible with a lot of J-10A components, and it would not require a radical investment in new production facilities, maintenance tools, training simulation systems, etc.
> 
> How about the export market? SAC could promote its newest design strategically as a "clean slate" design where foreign customisation and input can be incorporated from the start. SAC could replicate Korea's approach with the KF-X, inviting partners like Turkey to be a program participant. However, with most big buyers of new generation aircraft seemingly committed, especially Turkey and Brazil, it seems that the only likely partner would be Pakistan.



Noob question Fatman, till now all pakistani members have claimed that J10B is pakistan's answer to the Rafale deal. But you have claimed that J10B is equivalent to Gripen. Also, some time back, in the JF17 thread, many members claimed that JF17 blk 1 is comparable to Gripen C/D when specs are compared. So won't that put J10B & JF17 at an equal footing?? In this case, what is the advantage of going for J10B? Why not focus on JF17 instead?


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## DANGER-ZONE

sancho said:


> From the article you posted:
> 
> 
> 
> RWRs?



I guess it is something like Rafale Canard edge, doesn't look like any ECM antenna to me !

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## fatman17

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Noob question Fatman, till now all pakistani members have claimed that J10B is pakistan's answer to the Rafale deal. But you have claimed that J10B is equivalent to Gripen. Also, some time back, in the JF17 thread, *many members claimed that JF17 blk 1 is comparable to Gripen C/D* when specs are compared. So won't that put J10B & JF17 at an equal footing?? In this case, what is the advantage of going for J10B? Why not focus on JF17 instead?



not I. JFT is a notch below the gripen IMO. later blocks could reduce this gap. the JFT is a light-weight platform designed to match the IAF's LCA Tejas. the J10B is a different design all-to-gether and depending on its technology fit, may be comparable to the Gripen. this has yet to be seen.


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## sancho

danger-zone said:


> I guess it is something like Rafale Canard edge, doesn't look like any ECM antenna to me !



That are jammers of Rafales SPECTRA EWS and since the source stated ECM antenna, my guess goes more to RWRs.



fatman17 said:


> the JFT is a light-weight platform



So is the Gripen and that's why they are comparable, but one hast to keep in mind which versions. JF 17 B1 to Gripen A, JF17 B2 to Gripen C...
J10B from what we know so far might add only better A2A and CAS capabilities, since it could have the more powerful radar, IRST, be more maneuverable, has dedicated pod stations and more hardpoints for unguided bombs. In regard to deep strikes, SEAD or anti ship roles, it offers the same load disadvantages as the JF17 (number of heavy/wet hardpoints, centerline size limitations).

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## Shadow_Hunter

fatman17 said:


> not I. JFT is a notch below the gripen IMO. later blocks could reduce this gap. the JFT is a light-weight platform designed to match the IAF's LCA Tejas. the J10B is a different design all-to-gether and depending on its technology fit, may be comparable to the Gripen. this has yet to be seen.



Thanx. But this gives way to another query. If J10B is comparable to Gripen, that means it cannot be an answer to Rafale. Infact, I think it will lag behind even F16 Blk 52, so that means it won't be the new frontline fighter for PAF. So what is the significance of J10B then?? At present, it is just an undercooked plane which may be too late for its time, sort of like Tejas. Shouldn't pakistan have gone for J11 instead? It would have also provided PAF experience with the flanker which could be instrumental considering the fact that IAF will have 15 squadrons of it in 4 years.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> That are jammers of Rafales SPECTRA EWS and since the source stated ECM antenna, my guess goes more to RWRs.
> 
> 
> 
> So is the Gripen and that's why they are comparable, but one hast to keep in mind which versions. JF 17 B1 to Gripen A, JF17 B2 to Gripen C...
> J10B from what we know so far might add only better A2A and CAS capabilities, since it could have the more powerful radar, IRST, be more maneuverable, has dedicated pod stations and more hardpoints for unguided bombs. In regard to deep strikes, SEAD or anti ship roles, it offers the same load disadvantages as the JF17 (number of heavy/wet hardpoints, centerline size limitations).


 
Maneuoverability is a lesser issue as compared to payload, The J-10A suffers from a disadvantage that it "bulks" out before it reaches it operational weight capacity. I.e It has the ability to carry ten BVR missiles.. but due to lack of space on the hardpoints.. it cannot carry them all. The Issue lies in the structural strength distributional in the J-10 B.. and the load bearing spars.
The obvious solution is to have multiple ejector racks, but that then brings up the issue of clearance and available volume. 
So yes, the J-10B offers only a slight improvement over the A2A load carrying capacity of the JF-17 due to lack of space.. and not due to lack of lifting ability so to say.



Shadow_Hunter said:


> Thanx. But this gives way to another query. If *J10B is comparable to Gripen*, that means it cannot be an answer to Rafale. Infact, I think it will lag behind even F16 Blk 52, so that means it won't be the new frontline fighter for PAF. So what is the significance of J10B then?? At present, it is just an undercooked plane which may be too late for its time, sort of like Tejas. Shouldn't pakistan have gone for J11 instead? It would have also provided PAF experience with the flanker which could be instrumental considering the fact that IAF will have 15 squadrons of it in 4 years.



That would be an incorrect statement if radar abilities, ECM,ESM and ECCM systems are considered. 
It would be a correct statement if A2A payload capacity is taken into consideration. Or rather weapons with a particular volume.

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## Shadow_Hunter

Oscar said:


> Maneuoverability is a lesser issue as compared to payload, The J-10A suffers from a disadvantage that it "bulks" out before it reaches it operational weight capacity. I.e It has the ability to carry ten BVR missiles.. but due to lack of space on the hardpoints.. it cannot carry them all. The Issue lies in the structural strength distributional in the J-10 B.. and the load bearing spars.
> The obvious solution is to have multiple ejector racks, but that then brings up the issue of clearance and available volume.
> So yes, the J-10B offers only a slight improvement over the A2A load carrying capacity of the JF-17 due to lack of space.. and not due to lack of lifting ability so to say.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be an incorrect statement if radar abilities, ECM,ESM and ECCM systems are considered.
> It would be a correct statement if A2A payload capacity is taken into consideration. Or rather weapons with a particular volume.



And how will it compare to F16 Blk 52?? Is J10B capable enough to become new frontline fighter for PAF


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## SQ8

Shadow_Hunter said:


> And how will it compare to F16 Blk 52?? Is J10B capable enough to become new frontline fighter for PAF



Enough for what is asked of it.

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## fatman17

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Thanx. But this gives way to another query. If J10B is comparable to Gripen, that means it cannot be an answer to Rafale. Infact, I think it will lag behind even F16 Blk 52, so that means it won't be the new frontline fighter for PAF. So what is the significance of J10B then?? At present, it is just an undercooked plane which may be too late for its time, sort of like Tejas. Shouldn't pakistan have gone for J11 instead? It would have also provided PAF experience with the flanker which could be instrumental considering the fact that IAF will have 15 squadrons of it in 4 years.



all F-16s from block 40 onwards have similar capabilities. the J10A is comparable to the F-16A/B. the J10B is an upgrade on the A model, so it is comparable to latter model F-16's. now LM is offering to upgrade/fit AESA on all current models of F-16's in service. so this reduces the capability gap of the F-16's with the more modern Rafale, EFT etc. IAF will continue to enjoy larger numbers than the PAF (2:1), and therefore the PAF will need to cope with this reality with robust and hard training.

further i would like the PAF to consider the J-16 as a future medium to long term induction possibility.

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## Shadow_Hunter

fatman17 said:


> all F-16s from block 40 onwards have similar capabilities. the J10A is comparable to the F-16A/B. the J10B is an upgrade on the A model, so it is comparable to latter model F-16's. now LM is offering to upgrade/fit AESA on all current models of F-16's in service. so this reduces the capability gap of the F-16's with the more modern Rafale, EFT etc. IAF will continue to enjoy larger numbers than the PAF (2:1), and therefore the PAF will need to cope with this reality with robust and hard training.
> 
> further i would like the PAF to consider the J-16 as a future medium to long term induction possibility.



So you are agreeing that F16 will continue to be the frontline fighter for Pakistan. As far as I know Pakistan has only one squadron of Blk 52 in service. They may have more Blk 40 but I am not sure about the number. Kindly confirm.

Also I don't agree with you saying that IAF: PAF aircraft ratio will be 2:1. Sure on the basis of pure numbers it might be 2:1 but where is the quality. For example, we are inducting 270 Su30 MKI. To counter it, pakistan should have atleast 135 Blk 40+, if 2:1 ratio is to stand. JF 17 is good enough only our Mirage & Mig 27 as of now.

As far as I know J16 is still not confirmed officially. I might be wrong.


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## Mani2020

Shadow_Hunter said:


> So you are agreeing that F16 will continue to be the frontline fighter for Pakistan. As far as I know Pakistan has only one squadron of Blk 52 in service. They may have more Blk 40 but I am not sure about the number. Kindly confirm.
> .


 
Currently all the f-16 A/B block 15 of PAF are getting MLU in Turkey which will bring them equal to the level of block 52 aircrafts , So PAF in total will have ~ 70 F-16s including 18 block 52+ and rest block 52 

For further details and info about MLU and structural upgrade program for PAF f-16s go through F-16 thread


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## VelocuR

Mani2020 said:


> Currently all the f-16 A/B block 15 of PAF are getting MLU in Turkey which will bring them *equal to the level of block 52 aircrafts* , So PAF in total will have ~ 70 F-16s including 18 block 52+ and *rest block 52 *
> 
> For further details and info about MLU and structural upgrade program for PAF f-16s go through F-16 thread



Incorrect, it will bring equal to Block 40. 



> Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) will do the upgrade MLU which primarily involves replacement of avionics and structural modifications bringing them close *to block 40 standards. *


 Welcome back dude! 

Source


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## Mani2020

RaptorRX707 said:


> Incorrect, it will bring equal to Block 40.
> 
> Welcome back dude!
> 
> Source



No raptor it will bring PAF f-16s to block 52 level, remember PAF is not getting a typical mlu3 or mlu4 rather a customized one , also they are getting the CCIP upgrade which will bring them up to Block-50/52 standard.

Check this out 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/60896-paf-f-16-mlu-specifications-36-blk-52-prospects.html

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## VelocuR

Thanks, we can discuss in different threads, not here (F-16 Blk 52 topics).


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## fatman17

Shadow_Hunter said:


> So you are agreeing that F16 will continue to be the frontline fighter for Pakistan. As far as I know Pakistan has only one squadron of Blk 52 in service. They may have more Blk 40 but I am not sure about the number. Kindly confirm.
> 
> Also I don't agree with you saying that IAF: PAF aircraft ratio will be 2:1. Sure on the basis of pure numbers it might be 2:1 but where is the quality. For example, we are inducting 270 Su30 MKI. To counter it, pakistan should have atleast 135 Blk 40+, if 2:1 ratio is to stand. JF 17 is good enough only our Mirage & Mig 27 as of now.
> 
> As far as I know J16 is still not confirmed officially. I might be wrong.



its a matter of how we induct the new platforms. geo-politics, resource availability etc.


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## Shadow_Hunter

fatman17 said:


> its a matter of how we induct the new platforms. geo-politics, resource availability etc.



Can you elaborate?


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## umair86

RaptorRX707 said:


> Incorrect, it will bring equal to Block 40.
> 
> Welcome back dude!
> 
> Source



It is for Euro MLU not PAF one which customized and have same avionics as Block 52+


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## ziaulislam

in lay man terms
MLU= block52-range and payload
/
what final number do PAF wants regarding J-10


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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> in lay man terms
> MLU= block52-range and payload
> /
> what final number do PAF wants regarding J-10



J-10B. 40 minimum.

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## sancho

Oscar said:


> So yes, the J-10B offers only a slight improvement over the A2A load carrying capacity of the JF-17 due to lack of space.. and not due to lack of lifting ability so to say.



Exactly and that is caused by the similar number of wingstations as well as the same size limitations on the centerline, that causes the same issues for both fighters. 



Shadow_Hunter said:


> So you are agreeing that F16 will continue to be the frontline fighter for Pakistan.



I don't think so, because of the capabilities JF 17 and J10 will add to PAF in conbination with customised avionics, weapons, as well as tankers and AWACS. 
In A2A even with a PESA radar only, a J10B with it's design, improved RCS, the number of AAMs that it can carry, the mid air refuelling capability clearly will top the F16s. In A2G the addition of Raad, LS-6, MAR-1, escort jammers and again mid air refuelling capability will give JF17 and J10B (I expect the same weapons to be integrated in both fighters, at least for PAF) adds better deep strike and SEAD capabilities than the F16 too. The upgrade of the F16s is important, the addition of the B52s a stopgap now, but the future frontline fighters will be J10B and JF 17 B2 onwards.

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## fatman17

* the addition of the B52s a stopgap now*

no its not. the F16 program could have seen better days but why cry over spilt milk. PAF still wants a minimum of 100 F16s in its inventory. add the 150 JFTs and say 40 J10Bs (for now) is not fodder for any adversary. PAF will and shall remain a med-size AF.

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## ziaulislam

I guess the additional option of 100 JF-17s were to cover up for any losses of F-16s or J-10s
frankly i am disappointed with NATO routes opening, atleast if they had to open it anyway, they should have done it for some kind of logical military assistance for air force or militery aviation, like cobras or F-16s via EDA.
i guess we should now atleast expect 14 embargos one to come anytime sooner or later??


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## sancho

fatman17 said:


> * the addition of the B52s a stopgap now*
> 
> no its not. *the F16 program could have seen better days* but why cry over spilt milk. PAF still wants a minimum of 100 F16s in its inventory. add the 150 JFTs and say 40 J10Bs (for now) is not fodder for any adversary. PAF will and shall remain a med-size AF.



That's the point! If these additional F16s (afaik initially 2 x squads were planned) came in time they would have been good for a longer period of time, but now with the delays, the operational limitations wrt to tankers, AWACS linking, or no possibility of customisations, makes Chinese fighters better for PAFs future and they can offer the same or even better performance within the next 2 to 3 years. So why would PAF waste more money on additional F16 B52s, instead on J10Bs, which should be a more capable too?
Even the addition of second hand Block 50s hardly makes sense anymore, when JF 17 B2 is about to arrive and when we add the possibility of J21 towards the end of this decade, PAF really has better options. 

So these B52s "*now*" bridges the time till the olders are upgraded and the JF 17s are inducted, for the next few years and with the addition of J10B and JF17 B3 they will be outdated until they might get AESA upgrades.

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## fatman17

sancho said:


> That's the point! If these additional F16s (afaik initially 2 x squads were planned) came in time they would have been good for a longer period of time, but now with the delays, the operational limitations wrt to tankers, AWACS linking, or no possibility of customisations, makes Chinese fighters better for PAFs future and they can offer the same or even better performance within the next 2 to 3 years. So why would PAF waste more money on additional F16 B52s, instead on J10Bs, which should be a more capable too?
> Even the addition of second hand Block 50s hardly makes sense anymore, when JF 17 B2 is about to arrive and when we add the possibility of J21 towards the end of this decade, PAF really has better options.
> 
> So these B52s "*now*" bridges the time till the olders are upgraded and the JF 17s are inducted, for the next few years and with the addition of J10B and JF17 B3 they will be outdated until they might get AESA upgrades.



u r entiled to your view.
F16 is a late 70's design and after nearly 35 years remains a front-line fighter and will so for at least 2 decades. upgrades and MLU's can do wonders to the airframe and fighter performance. the LM production line has many back-orders esp. if Taiwan gets new aircraft.
F16 program remains critical for the PAF, even with the upgrades you have mentioned for the chinese platforms.

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## ziaulislam

thats why PAF didnt went for new ones however refurbished ones, PAF would definitely go for them.
remember there is no substitute for a plateform you operated for such a long time becuase of the experience you have gained in operating it plus the on infrastruture you already have..so given the choice F-16 would still be PAF favourite..
mu guess is that PAF might end up with 100 F-16s..critical period will be next few years how the political situation plays out

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## razgriz19

F-16 will remain frontline fighter/interceptor untill PAF replaces them with 5th G fighter.


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## Manticore

J-10 Documentaryhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k49dOIDpTIU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2oXIZ3KG2-A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=19__RyozHy0


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

DEDICATED TO JF17 + J10B , Pakistani AIR FORCE .....

And F16 C/D ....


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## MastanKhan

Sancho,

I never said it before----but what have you been on lately----. F16 blk 52 is an extremely superior fighter aircraft---and with the operational aim120 that it carries---its reach is extremely phenominal. F16 blk was produced 30 years ago----but not the blk 52---it is a brand new machine with a newer engine and newer electronics.

See---in current day warfare---the aircraft does not need to be brand spanking new all the time---if it has extremely potent air to air missiles--- electronic warfare suite---a good radar and awacs support. Blk52 is still the aircraft of choice for so many air forces---. 

If it was upto me---I would have had 125---150 BLK 52's and MLU's----250 JF17's and 75 FC 20's.

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## manofwar

ali1096 said:


> We offer franchise. You can raise your income up to $1000. (11404)
> if you are interested to open a franchise in your locality then apply now.
> For franchises $600. We are offering open worldwide franchise.
> Eazy2earn for best solution provider. For more detail visit:Eazy2earn.com


 
Isn't advertising banned, dude??


----------



## sancho

fatman17 said:


> u r entiled to your view.
> F16 is a late 70's design and after nearly 35 years remains a front-line fighter and will so for at least 2 decades. upgrades and MLU's can do wonders to the airframe and fighter performance. the LM production line has many back-orders esp. if Taiwan gets new aircraft.
> F16 program remains critical for the PAF, even with the upgrades you have mentioned for the chinese platforms.



No, it's just a realistic assessment of F16s capability, compared to JF 17 B2 onwards and J10B onwards in PAF during the next let say 5 years. Not having the capability of beeing refuelled in air, or carrying stand off A2G weapons makes these F16s operationally limited and you can't compare PAF with Taiwanese air force, since they don't get new fighters types. For them the F16 will remain the frontline fighter and theirs might be even more capable than PAFs since AESA and some other upgrades seems to be on the list, but PAF get the same with modernised JF 17 and J10 versions and that's the big difference!




MastanKhan said:


> Sancho,
> 
> I never said it before----but what have you been on lately----. F16 blk 52 is an extremely superior fighter aircraft---and with the operational aim120 that it carries---its reach is extremely phenominal.



But compare to what? An J10B with new engines, reduced RCS, upgraded SD 10s, extended endurance thanks to mid air refuelling and possibly even AESA?
They are good fighters today no doubt about that, but the fact is, PAF didn't get the most capable versions, not even weapons (AIM 9M, not 9X and AIM 120 C5 and not D), which would made them more comparable to what PAF gets with coming JF 17 and J10 versions (around 2015).

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## Introvert

Are we supposed to be getting any J10 in 2012. If so, then how many?


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## fatman17

Baazi said:


> Are we supposed to be getting any J10 in 2012. If so, then how many?



very unlikely - possible window 2014-15


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## RAJAOMAIR

Farooqi1 said:


> Hassan
> 
> You are absolutely right but somehow my un- scientific mind can not comprehend that how an F-16 (which we have in limited quantities and would not get more given the US back stabing policies) and JFT can defend against more powerfull twine engine aircrafts. I know it will be expensive to have twine engine fighters but nothing more important then the defense of our motherland.
> 
> Following is a quote from another posters comments which describe my own feelings and thoughts
> 
> "If Pakistan has sensible, literate and intelligent Air Command it should realise by now that real threat can not only come from the Eastern border but is more dangerously present now at the Western front as far West as Israel or more given the aggressive and hostile military presence of USA and NATO and subversive Israeli MOSSAD presence inside Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan can no longer afford to invest in antiquated stupid but expensive war toys like the F-16 (intelligently rejected by India) with built in tracer bugs and kill buttons and the badly designed overweight JF-17 with Russian under-powered smoky engine.
> 
> If it is serious, given the current and the developing defence panorama Pakistan now needs a truly lethal multi-range multi-role Air Force equipped with up to date air craft like F-15, F-18, Eurofighter, Rafale, MIG-31, MIG-35, SU-27, etc., and not more junk like J-10B with very limited capabilities to meet Pakistan EAST-WEST-NORTH-SOUTH increasingly war-prone requirements."
> 
> I can't believe that Air Forces of Indonesia, Venezuela and Uganda even have SU30s and what we got?
> 
> 
> Instead of 250 JFT and 150 J10B, I would rather have 36 Su30 or SU35 and 36 J11bs. 100 JFT and 36 J10b along with 36 SU 30 and 36 J11b may just cost us the same amount of money but would give us parity (not in numbers but in technology and capabilities) with the modern Air Forces in our region.
> 
> And please no more nuclear deterrent. We have enough of that. I beleive God has provided us a chance in the form of Putins visit and we should take advantage of it. Just my opinion.
> 
> In my last trip back home (February this year) I had the privilege of meeting and talking to a fine brave pilot of PAF and believe me as per that fine young man morals are down. And I don't blame him. I mean no matter how good of a shooter you are, you don't have much of chance if you only have 9mm Glock and your opposition have a machine gun.
> 
> I am requesting all the forum members to think about it. And let us start a campaign and do what ever we can in our capacity. Write letters emails to PAF and Government etc. May Allaha make us realise that what needed to be done. Nothing is impossible. We just need to believe and do the right thing.





i agree with most of it but.. f-16 still is comparable to all jets u named... u think israel,turkey's airforces are not modern

and also mig-31 is old crap instead.. u should write jas 39 grippen...


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## Shadow_Hunter

RAJAOMAIR said:


> i agree with most of it but.. f-16 still is comparable to all jets u named... u think israel,turkey's airforces are not modern
> 
> and also mig-31 is old crap instead.. u should write jas 39 grippen...



Israel operates F16I, which is the most advanced version yet. Turkey is getting 100 F35.


----------



## RAJAOMAIR

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Israel operates F16I, which is the most advanced version yet. Turkey is getting 100 F35.



The F-16I is a two-seat variant of the Block 52. Turkey is *not* getting f-35s to *replace* f-16.


----------



## hatf IX

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Israel operates F16I, which is the most advanced version yet. Turkey is getting 100 F35.



As per my knowledge UAE has the most advance version of F-16 that is block 60 with AESA radar . . . Don't you think . . .?


----------



## alimobin memon

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Israel operates F16I, which is the most advanced version yet. Turkey is getting 100 F35.



0_o? Really F16E and new F16 V are the latest and F16I is block 52 not even block 52+


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## Pak47

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Israel operates F16I, which is the most advanced version yet. Turkey is getting 100 F35.



UAE has the most advanced F-16's.

And according to you the most advanced plane ever built was Su-30 mki right???

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## DANGER-ZONE

This thread is DEAD, No major development in PAF specially under great RAO QAMAR SAHAB. 
MODS should bury it now.
I am tired of reading / hearing FC-20/J-10B FOR PAKISTAN


----------



## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

danger-zone said:


> This thread is DEAD, No major development in PAF specially under great RAO QAMAR SAHAB.
> MODS should bury it now.
> I am tired of reading / hearing FC-20/J-10B FOR PAKISTAN


same is what i believe , no development in this project.....
should be opened after 2 to 3 years when we will have chance of getting those birds ....


----------



## RAJAOMAIR

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Israel operates F16I, which is the most advanced version yet. Turkey is getting 100 F35.




lie=banned.........


----------



## graphican

There is so much disappointment in the air these days. You guys are not alone who are feeling that.. there is a deep sense of grief, loss and powerlessness these days and defense deals is not an exception. But its all cosmetic.. I have refused to accept this as reality.. and the moment I would quit, that would become my reality. At present this low wave is a condition at most. We all have potentials inside us and we are looking towards someone else, some person some party some character to come and lead so we could combine our energies with him and rise. Some say leaders are born and not made, others say leaders are made not born but I just know one thing for sure that there is one leader in the world and that is me. I am standing and refusing to embrace this as my reality. I know I have a slight contribution to make and I owe to this Nation.

Have faith.. you are not dead.. nor are our millions of brothers out there standing for us and with us. I know theis forum will be delighted because your inner leader would have made the slight little difference along with millions of leaders who would have made theirs. Accept your role.. accept that you are alive. And when you are not sure what change to make outwards to contribute, it is exactly the time when you make this change inwards. 

Pakistan will Inshallah get J-10s all it needs and all it wants.Come-on people, even our enemies see as one of the strongest Nations on earth.. but you don't believe them.. do you?


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## Manticore

Dual missile rails


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## DANGER-ZONE

ANTIBODY said:


>



I know its all written _CHEE CHA PONG_ and is useless unless translated but Dual missile rails are easily visible and operational. Thats all i could get from the pic. 
Nice post.

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## applesauce

danger-zone said:


> I know its all written _CHEE CHA PONG_ and is useless unless translated but Dual missile rails are easily visible and operational. Thats all i could get from the pic.
> Nice post.



it talks about the integration of new EW suites/pods on chendu MR's j-10A's, and how ts successsful, etc etc

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## Mani2020

Quoting Hkhan 



> The main issue regarding the J-10B/FC-20 delivery to PAF is the production issue. At present J-10A's production in China is not even meeting PLAAF needs.
> 
> To fulfill PAF order of J-10B/FC-20, Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAIC) has to build a brand new facility which presently is in construction stages and it will take another 24 months before any production of aircraft can take place.
> 
> On the other hand, Egypt is studying the concept of J-10 seriously. Earlier this year a high level Egyptian military delegation visited China for two-weeks. It wants to replace its fleet of F-7 & MiG-21 along with Mirage V & 2000 and has shown interests in both JF-17 and J-10 aircrafts.

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## Xracer

Mani2020 said:


> The main issue regarding the J-10B/FC-20 delivery to PAF is the production issue. At present J-10A's production in China is not even meeting PLAAF needs.
> 
> To fulfill PAF order of J-10B/FC-20, Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAIC) has to build a brand new facility which presently is in construction stages and it will take another 24 months before any production of aircraft can take place.
> 
> On the other hand, Egypt is studying the concept of J-10 seriously. Earlier this year a high level Egyptian military delegation visited China for two-weeks. It wants to replace its fleet of F-7 & MiG-21 along with Mirage V & 2000 and has shown interests in both JF-17 and J-10 aircrafts.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca-384.html#ixzz21ZFOZNDN


Kindly China Give us Some Birds so we can SHOW OFFF a LIL Bit PLZzz   
Or Just for Testing YAr


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## applesauce

applesauce said:


> it talks about the integration of new EW suites/pods on chendu MR's j-10A's, and how ts successsful, etc etc



additional note, supposedly according to the chinese internet, the new ew set up is suppose to have help them achieve like a 8-1 vs j-11b's in mock combat, what the parameters of the mock combat is, i do not know.

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## razgriz19

Note the engines nozzles are different in both pictures

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## PakShaheen79

^ In the last pic ... the jet is fitted with WS-10 Chinese power plant.

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## razgriz19

PakShaheen79 said:


> ^ In the last pic ... the jet is fitted with WS-10 Chinese power plant.



and it also looks like the final production model...

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## Xracer

PakShaheen79 said:


> ^ In the last pic ... the jet is fitted with WS-10 Chinese power plant.


Also WS-10A is already being used to power the J-11B.


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## Pak47

Glad, to see Chinese engine mated with a true beast.

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## hatf IX

razgriz19 said:


> Note the engines nozzles are different in both pictures



but the question is, is it Chinese or Russian, if it is Chinese than I think its a newer model, only Chinese member can shed some light on it . . . . .


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## ChineseTiger1986

hatf IX said:


> but the question is, is it Chinese or Russian, if it is Chinese than I think its a newer model, only Chinese member can shed some light on it . . . . .


 
The aircraft 1035 has appeared since the July of last year, it has definitely equipped with a WS-10B engine.

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## SBD-3

applesauce said:


> additional note, supposedly according to the chinese internet, the new ew set up is suppose to have help them achieve like a 8-1 vs j-11b's in mock combat, what the parameters of the mock combat is, i do not know.


some released details....... 


> ????????????????-20120723????-????-?????????????-???
> Well, at least this time, if one believes the report, the Flankers employed effective radar jamming, forcing the J-10s to use diversional tactics by flanking them with one, enabling the rest to down them.

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## razgriz19

*INTERESTING BOMB LAYOUT!*

*NOTE - TWO BOMBS AT CENTERLINE AND THE REAR TWO BOMBS ON THE FUSELAGE ARE "DIFFERENT" THAN THE REST.*


























^^^^^^ *looks like exact same Precision guided bombs*

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## batmannow

what could be a realistic indictational date of this beast in PAF?


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## mylovepakistan

batmannow said:


> what could be a realistic indictational date of this beast in PAF?



2015 at best


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## Introvert

batmannow said:


> what could be a realistic indictational date of this beast in PAF?





mylovepakistan said:


> 2015 at best



According to Wiki: 36 on order (As of February 2011) for delivery in 2012.

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## Introvert

self deleted.


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## mosu

well nothing can we do only we have to wait and see


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## razgriz19

*J-10A AND B WITH FULL BOMB LOAD!*











J-10 ground testing!

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## SBD-3




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## Dil Pakistan

hasnain0099 said:


>



Hasnain! Sorry can't see the images. Reload please.


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## Storm Force

Stunning looking PLANE THE J10 

wOULD BE A HUGE LIFT for PAF if you people ever get this


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Storm Force said:


> Stunning looking PLANE THE J10
> 
> wOULD BE A HUGE LIFT for PAF if you people ever get this


these birds are gona arrive in near future .................


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## TOPGUN

Storm Force said:


> Stunning looking PLANE THE J10
> 
> wOULD BE A HUGE LIFT for PAF if you people ever get this



It's coming my friend good things come to those who wait then it will be even more stunning in PAF colors


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## fatman17

*Chengdu J-10 Emerges:*


China is lifting its veil of secrecy on the elusive Chengdu J-10 fighter, which may become China's first successful fourth generation fighter. Richard D Fisher, Jr offers new insights.

THE JIAN-10 or J-10's origins can be traced back to a programmer initiated by the Chengdu Aircraft Co's competitor, the Shenyang Aircraft Co, in the form of the J-9 canard fighter proposal. Shenyang's desire to focus on what became the J-8 fighter forced the J-9 to be shifted to Chengdu in 1969, eventually producing a proposal for a 13 ton, Mach 2.5 canard fighter bearing a resemblance to Saab's JA-37 Viggen. 

This reflected a preference for a pre fly-by-wire design, one which included canards to provide a better Short Take Off and Landing (STOL) performance, while the efficient delta wing provided better maneuverability. However, the J-9 never advanced beyond wind tunnel testing and by the end of the 1970s the programmer had ended because of lack of funding, an inability to surmount technical problems, and Chengdu's decision to concentrate on new versions of the J-7 (MiG-21C Fishbed). 

The follow-on J-10 proposal started in the 1980s as China's answer to emerging fourth generation Soviet MiG and Sukhoi fighters. The canard configuration of the J-9 was retained, though changing strategic requirements caused by the decision of China's leadership to downgrade military priorities in the 1980s, followed by the fall of the Soviet Union, forced a prolonged development period.

Requirements also shifted from an emphasis on air-superiority to a multi-role fighter to replace the Shenyang J-6 (MiG-19 Farmer), the Xian 0-5 Fantan and the J-7.

Through the 1990s, the J-10 was the source of great speculation and intrigue, as Washington tried to contend with the J-10's new ally, Israel. Following the Reagan Administration's decision to end funding for Israel Aircraft Industries' Lavi (Young Lion) fighter in 1988, forcing its cancellation, Israel promptly offered its technology to China. 

At least one Chinese defector in the early 1990s supplied the US with early design data. This led to the US release of artist's projections showing a canard fighter with elements of the Lavi, and the Lockheed-Martin F-16. However, China added to the confusion by revealing photos of two J-10 models with top members of the Chinese Communist Party Politburo. In 1996 a photo of a canard fighter was released alongside Politburo member Li Peng, a noted hard-liner. This model featured a near copy of the Lavi's vertical stabilizer but a very different fuselage and main wing. The photo was alleged to have been taken in 1990, but revealed by Taiwanese agents. In early 2000 another photo of a different J-10 model appeared in a Hong Kong publication, with Politburo member Li Rui huan. This model was also a canard fighter, but one with a different vertical stabilizer and the double-delta wing having a less pronounced sweep.

It is now known that the final prototype emerged in early 1998, the first flight taking place on March 23 that year. The J-10 has since been known to US intelligence services and, one assumes, to those of its allies. Butthe J-10 did not emerge into public view until the unofficial release of a grainy photo on the
Internet in January 2001. In subsequent months several photos emerged showing J-10s in flight and close up photos began to emerge in January 2002 (see J-10 Emerges, March 2001, p5). This led to at least one Chinese internet leaker of J-10 information being arrested. Although there is speculation that the J-10 will have an o f f i c i a l debut at the Zhuhai Air Show in November, existing photos, plus additional new data, allow for a fuller analysis of the J-10.

Israel's influence
Early 2001 photos of the J-10 reveal an F-16- size fighter with a canard configuration similar to, but not the same as, the Lavi. The J-10's outward similarity to the Lavi is evident in the shape of the shoulder-mounted canard surfaces, and in the proportion of wing and the lower fuselage ventral stabilizers as well as in the wing roots. However, the J-10 is larger than the Lavi, and also, in contrast, has a conventional straight-trailing edge delta wing with no wing tip hard points. The J-10 has a broader vertical stabilizer than the Lavi, and its under slung engine intake is more square than semi-circular as on the Lavi and the F-16.
Chinese Internet sources note that the J-10 may eventually have eleven hard points &#8211; five on the fuselage and six on the wings, though the prototypes appear to have only one fuselage hard point. Other Israeli influences cannot be seen. These are thought by the US intelligence community to include advanced composite materials, flight control technology, and avionics derived from US technology on the F-16, but sold to China by Israel. 

Early flyby-wire tests were conducted on a converted J-6 with the China Test Flight Establishment (CTFE). However, Chengdu is reported to have had difficulty mastering the J-10's fly-by-wire system, which is also said to have caused the crash of one prototype. Since the early 1990s China is also alleged to have had ample access to Pakistan's F-16s, enabling it to build a data base that is also likely to have aided the J-10.

Chinese sources indicate the cockpit has three multi-function displays plus a large holographic HUD in a manner very similar to that of the Lavi. The J-10 is also said to employ a helmet display system. This could be the clunky Louyang helmet display system shown briefly during the latest Zhuhai Airshow in November 2000. Or it could be, as Taiwan sources suggest, a variant of the Israeli Elbit helmet display. 

Low-level and precision attack missions will be aided by a FLIP and laser targeting pod, which are likely to be attached to a forward fuselage hard point. A compact Chinese targeting pod similar to the Israeli Litening was revealed at the 1998 Zhuhai show.

Russia's contribution
The J-10's initial radar is thought to be the Russian multi-mode Phazotron Zemchug (Pearl) which Russian sources note is a variant of the Zhuk-M being fitted to the J-8IIC (or J-8IIH according to some sources) multi-role fighter. Taiwanese sources note that the J-10's radar may also be called the Phazotron Zhuk 10 PD, with a search range of 86.5 nautical miles, and the ability to scan ten to 15 targets and track between four and six targets. Other reports note that Israel has offered the Elta EL/M-2035 radar, though its selection is less likely. It is possible that future versions of theJ-10 may feature a new Chinese multi-mode radar.

China's inability to produce a suitable engine - a long-standing problem - led to the adoption of the 12,500kg (27,560lb) thrust Saturn/Lyulka AL-31FN. This version differs from those on the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) Sukhoi fighters in having the gearbox moved to the bottom of the engine. Incorporating this engine helped force the 1990s redesign of the J-10. At the 2Q01 Paris Air Show, Chinese officials revealed their intention to purchase 300 AL-31FN engines for the J-10.
Chinese, Russian and Israeli-derived systems will dominate the J-10's early weapons load. For short-range combat it will carry the PL-8, a copy of the Israeli Python-3, the PL-9, which is based on the same Israeli missile, and the Russian Vympel R-73. These AAMs all have an off-bore sight capability. For medium range combat it will carry the Chinese PL-11 and in the future, the Vympel R-77.

For attack missions the J-10 will carry free-fall and laser guided bombs, and Chinese guided missiles such as the C-801/802, or future derivatives. The J-10 could also carry a new Chinese ramjet-powered attack missile revealed at the 2000 Zhuhai show, or a co-produced version of the Russian Zvezda Kh-31P ramjet-powered anti-radar missile.

Changing with the doctrine
The prolonged development of the J-10 has had the ironic result of allowing the fighter to adjust to changing requirements of the PLAAF. The J-10 evolved from an interceptor and air superiority aircraft directed against the former Soviet Union into a multi-role fighter designed to implement new doctrines of high tech and joint-forces warfare aimed at forcing 'unification' with Taiwan.
In a Taiwan operations scenario, the J-10 will complement other PLAAF multi-role fighters, such as the Su-30MKK, Shenyang J-8IIC and Xian JH-7 attack fighters in performing o f f e n s i v e strike missions. It will also complement Su-27 and J-8II fighters in offensive counter-air sweep missions coordinated by Russian-made Beriev A:50E AWACS and other support aircraft. These, in turn, will be coordinated with ballistic missile, cruise missile, information warfare and special forces operations.

With the expected use of helmet-sighted missiles, the J-10 will have an immediate advantage over Taiwanese fighters which may lack helmet sighting systems for a number of years. Armed with the Russian R-77 self-guiding AAM or a new PRC self-guided medium-range AAM based on the AMR-1 design revealed in 1996, the J-10 would be comparable to current Taiwanese and US fighters armed with the AIM-120 AMRAAM AAM. With an expected 9g maneuvering c a p a b i l i t y , the J-10 may also prove as maneuverable as the F-16.

It is not clear how many J-10s will eventually enter PLAAF service. Between six and ten prototypes are believed to have been built so far. There is speculation that 30 could be built by 2005, while one US estimate notes that eventual production could reach 500.

However, the J-10's cost and potential complications over foreign components may inhibit the production of such large numbers.
The J-10 will also have to prove itself as worthy as the Russian Sukhoi Su-27s and Su-30MKK fighter and attack aircraft now being acquired. In addition, the PLAAF is building a new multi-role version of the Shenyang J-8II fighter (perhaps because J-10 development is not proceeding fast enough). About 100 new multi-role versions of the Shenyang J-8II fighter are to be built.

Foreign sales
*Marketing the J-10 is likely to be dependent on China's success in developing a domestic engine, r e p o r t e d l y t h e 26,730lb thrust WP-15 (Wopen) turbofan*. Even though it is less powerful than the AL-31F, the WP-15's success would represent a considerable advance for China. One of the first possible customers to see the J-10 was Thailand's Air Force Commander, who in 1997 had great praise for the fighter. Pakistan is another potential customer and it could meet success in Africa or even Latin America.

Although Iran is also a potential customer, in exchange for its early technical help, Israel is believed to have extracted a promise from China not to sell the J-10 in the Middle East.

In varying degrees, the J-10 will compete with other Chengdu products like the FC-1, J-7MF and J-7MG. The J-10 will cost more, but not nearly as much as its Western competitors, such as the Eurofighter, Gripen, Rafale, F-16 and F/A-18, and may perhaps be competitive with the MiG-29. China's penchant for offering 'friendship prices' could mean that more countries may have access to this multi-role fighter. 

For the future, Chengdu is said to be considering upgrade options for the J-10. These include a thrust-vectored engine, a prototype of which was in a photo display at the 2000 Zhuhai Air Show, but failed to elicit comment from Chinese officials.
Also being considered is a phased array radar- either a Russian model or a new Chinese phased array radar likely to be based on foreign inputs. It is also likely that future J-10s will incorporate radar absorbing materials, if it does not already use radar absorbing paint developed in China.

Then there is a potential People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) requirement for a naval variant of the J-10 should the PLAN realize its long-standing ambition of obtaining large CTOL aircraft carriers. In 1997 the US Office of Naval Intelligence speculated that a twin engine version of the J-10 could be developed for this purpose. Such a version might use the Klimov RD-33 engine, though a more powerful version of the AL-31, such as the recently revealed AL-41, could also be used. With either engine solution, Chengdu could develop a twin-seat dedicated attack variant of the J-10.

With significant foreign help, China has finally produced a world-class fighter in the Chengdu J-10. It can be expected to be a challenge to Taiwan's Air Force, or to current generation US fighters that might have to assist Taiwan. And for the right price, China may finally be able to offer a modern fighter aircraft to compete with Western and Russian models.

_Old article but some historical facts about the J-10_.


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## ababeel22

j10 might be a good plane but it sure is an ugly looking one! that intake is so big and looking from the side angle it looks even more ugly, f16 has got the intake xactly there but it looks smaller and definitely makes f16 look sleeker from side. i remember someone saying "if it looks good it flies good too". i maself am not a huge fan of j10 or any chinese jet for that matter. is there any better option for paf like mig35 or something, may be get only 30 odd better planes than buying 50 of not so good fighter jets.


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## Xracer

ababeel22 said:


> j10 might be a good plane but it sure is an ugly looking one! that intake is so big and looking from the side angle it looks even more ugly, f16 has got the intake xactly there but it looks smaller and definitely makes f16 look sleeker from side. i remember someone saying "if it looks good it flies good too". i maself am not a huge fan of j10 or any chinese jet for that matter. is there any better option for paf like mig35 or something, may be get only 30 odd better planes than buying 50 of not so good fighter jets.


Looks dont matter in wars My Boy But if you Look from my eyes J10 is even Betten Looking Than F35.

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## ababeel22

love definitely is blind


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## IceCold

By the time J-10 is matured enough with a local engine, i doubt if the option of acquiring J-10s would remain viable for PAF or not. PAF should look for another possibility but then again where exactly will we get the money from?........damn you politicians, you have ruined Pakistan.

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## Mani2020

Quoting pshamim 



> There has been some chatter after a meeting between Pakistani and Chinese official about the J-10B. Quantities in questions are now rumored to be 40 instead of 36 mentioned before which will form 2 20 aircraft squadron..
> 
> As always, changes to the new J-10b for Pakistan include the IRST, an AESA, , DSI inlet, shortened wing tips, and nose pointing downwards. Engine thrust will be lower than a J10A. Though the thrust will be down, the total inlet pressure recovery will be far more efficient and have a lower rcs. No news about the engine issue though.

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## Bratva

Mani2020 said:


> Qouting pshamim



Lower thrust means... PAF J-10 will use Chinese engine as J-10 A use russian engine.


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## Emmie

mafiya said:


> Lower thrust means... PAF J-10 will use Chinese engine as J-10 A use russian engine.



If I am not mistaken no engine in WS-10 family has thrust lower than AL-31FN.


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## Bratva

Emmie said:


> If I am not mistaken no engine in WS-10 family has thrust lower than AL-31FN.



There is always a difference between Advertised thrust and Operational (actual) thrust. Same case with our RD-93, what russian claimed, it turns out wrong, actual thrust is not what it is advertised.

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## Mani2020

mafiya said:


> Lower thrust means... PAF J-10 will use Chinese engine as J-10 A use russian engine.



By the looks of it i think so , Paf dont want to get into another headache by using a third party engines, also the al-31 on FC-20 were subject to russian approval so paf may have taken a simple route .

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## monitor



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## rcrmj

ababeel22 said:


> love definitely is blind


indeed, so other people think you are blind too


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## IceCold

Mani2020 said:


> Quoting pshamim



If you can also tell whether the above requirements also include super cruise capability in the J-10?


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## Mani2020

IceCold said:


> If you can also tell whether the above requirements also include super cruise capability in the J-10?



For super cruise higher thrust is an important factor along with many other factors,and as the quoted statement say that the thrust on the PAF version will be lower than the chinese versions so i assume no supercruise capability


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## IceCold

Mani2020 said:


> For super cruise higher thrust is an important factor along with many other factors,and as the quoted statement say that the thrust on the PAF version will be lower than the chinese versions so i assume no supercruise capability



No no i understand that you need higher thrust for super cruise, what i meant was is it on PAF cards?


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## Mani2020

IceCold said:


> No no i understand that you need higher thrust for super cruise, what i meant was is it on PAF cards?



only a real insider at a good position and influence will be able to inform you on that which is quite difficult, otherwise its all speculation one can do at best just to keep fanboys happy ...so i will not go big with the ambiguous claims ....


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## shawn52

hey please share some more pictures of J-10/F-10 Aircraft


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## Irfan Baloch

Mani2020 said:


> only a real insider at a good position and influence will be able to inform you on that which is quite difficult, otherwise its all speculation one can do at best just to keep fanboys happy ...so i will not go big with the ambiguous claims ....



I would say yes to super cruise, if not on this block then maybe next one. anything that increases the endurance and range of the aircraft is desirable. and a small heat signature is never a bad idea on any given day.

if the Chinese Engine has that potential then the answer is very easily yes


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## Irfan Baloch

ababeel22 said:


> j10 might be a good plane but it sure is an ugly looking one! that intake is so big and looking from the side angle it looks even more ugly, f16 has got the intake xactly there but it looks smaller and definitely makes f16 look sleeker from side. i remember someone saying "if it looks good it flies good too". i maself am not a huge fan of j10 or any chinese jet for that matter. is there any better option for paf like mig35 or something, may be get only 30 odd better planes than buying 50 of not so good fighter jets.



true that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I wont go as far as calling it ugly. its just dull and simple just like JF-17. made purely on utilitarian principle, nothing to do with the aesthetics you only and only see in Western aircrafts, and one Russian SU-27 family.
think of J-10 as a corolla 86, that model was an icon in Pakistan back in the days. an old vintage style but its packed with almost all the modern goodies being offered by other Jet manufacturers in the same generation league.

in the B models they have redesigned the boxy air intake so it looks less offensive now.. but then again what ever is done is with utility in mind, nothing to do with competing with a western aircraft for the calendar shoot

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## Mani2020

Irfan Baloch said:


> I would say yes to super cruise, if not on this block then maybe next one. anything that increases the endurance and range of the aircraft is desirable. and a small heat signature is never a bad idea on any given day.
> 
> if the Chinese Engine has that potential then the answer is very easily yes



depends upon whether PAF will go beyond the initial 40/36 numbers mark (which by the way is just speculation in this point in time) otherwise if PAF wants the numbers to be only 36/40 then no question for 2nd block. The only solution then will be to modify/upgrade theses 40/36 jets at some later point but with some cost association

If PAF think they have enough money in the tank too spend upon such facilities only then PAF will go with the option otherwise may be not so soon..Obviously if you have money you will try to put every x.y and z on the aircraft but if you dont have enough money in the bag you always try to limit those goodies which might be good but not necessary


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## Mav3rick

I do not understand what PAF is waiting for, it would be better if we induct these Jets before IAF gets her hands on Rafales. More flight hours and more experience on these jets by PAF would be advantageous.


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## mylovepakistan

Mav3rick said:


> I do not understand what PAF is waiting for, it would be better if we induct these Jets before IAF gets her hands on Rafales. More flight hours and more experience on these jets by PAF would be advantageous.



so induction of a new platform is that simple?
off course not,

a fatigue process indeed


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## Najam Khan

Can any Chinese member translate after duration 1:00

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## fatman17

Mav3rick said:


> I do not understand what PAF is waiting for, it would be better if we induct these Jets before IAF gets her hands on Rafales. More flight hours and more experience on these jets by PAF would be advantageous.



the fruits of patience are more sweeter - J-10/FC-20 will be inducted in the PAF with chinese engine not before that.

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## araz

Sir
The news from Pshamim saheb was to the effect that the b version will have some PAF specified changes. The engine thrust would be lower but he was not forthcoming as to the reason for it. The only reason I could think of was the chinese engine. However we can potentially wait another year or two before ordering.There is no threat demanding urgent induction. Even induction in 2016-17 woukd be fine. it would allow induction of a more matured platform while we continue to develop our" cheap and low tech" plane. With the induction of more tech, I honestly dont feel the need for J 10B at least at this point in time. The only complicating factor isthe Pak-US relationship and the threat of sanctions. I also wonder whether the signal for buying J IO has strategic implications vis a vis getting some more F16s out of US. If the truth be told we would be much better off getting more F16s than J 10s purely for logistic reasons. However it maybe that in order to keep the pressure on both parties J10s serve as a strategic buy.
My 2 paisas worth.
Araz

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## A.Rafay

*FC-20*







> In late-February 2006, the President of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf, toured the J-10 and JF-17 production facilities during which the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was offered the J-10,[18] and the purchase of 36 J-10s was approved on 12 April 2006. The J-10s would be modified to Pakistani requirements, and would equip two PAF squadrons from 2014&#8211;2015 and be known as the FC-20.



What happened to this aircraft, it seems good than JF17,When are we getting them, one seat or twin?


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

I have yet to read an apology from all the superstars of this board who argued with me when I stated about how much time it would take to get these aircraft and how much time it would take for the pilots to train and time for integration.

I also stated that it would take at least 6---10 years for pak pilots to be really proficient on the JF17 aircraft----. Even our great retired warrior used sarcasm against me----.

I would like all of you to apologize for your insults and ignorance----and accept that I knew a little bit more than you did due to my experience---and you people were arguing with me just because out of ignorance and false pride----.

Please post your apologies---two of you senior most---I would also like you to resign your commission as well due to your failure in understanding the issue---.

Wouldn't you want your generals to submit their resignations when they failed in their major assessments---that is you 'agnostic muslim and you blain2'---about time you two---do the honorable thing----there are some more---you know who you are.

Fc20---possibly in another 3 to 4 years---the first batch---then integration---then game plan---pilot training----another 6 to 10 years project---and where would we end up at----almost 15 years behind in time-----.

Writing a "playbook" or operational manual will take at least a minimum of 5 years or more likely 10 years----. JF17 has been operational for how long now---I guarantee you that the paf doesn't even know 1/2 the capabilites of this aircraft as to how to use it in a practical manner because they don't have all the hardware and software ready for it.

We learnt fast on the F16's---because there was already an operational manual prepared by the americans for that aircraft---we learnt fast on the F86 because we already had a ready maanual for that aircraft---. Now it falls upon us to write that 'playbook'---we will find out---that it is as difficult a task as it can be.

So----basically in the year 2020 paf would be at the same level---if it would have purchased rafale in 2003 and gotten delivery starting around 2004---05.

4th generation planes take a long time to integrate--- a long long time---. I guarantee you people that the paf never thought how much time it would take them to have the 'play book ' written for the JF17----and then convey the training over to the pilots---forget about other problems associated with the aircraft.

Remember---what is the weakest point in a chain---its weakest link---. What is the weakest link in air force---it worst performing fighter pilot---to make that worst performing pilot into an efficient pilot in a jf17 would be a herculean task---it is a leap of technology---user friendly as it may sound to be---it is still a machine that rains death---it is not easy to master---.

It would have been much easier---if you had killed Osama Bin Laden and his toadies at tora bora and gotten yourself rid of this menace----.

FC20---3---5 years from now is worthless. F16 blk 52 would be a better purchase---because you know how it operates and yuo are mentally ready to adapt to it----there is nothing new to learn persay---.

Araz---strange coment from you about 'no threat now'---doctor---weapons system are not bought for current threats---they are bought for threats that may arise 10 to 15 years from now---whe there is not a iota of any threat around---.

You cannot buy and prepare yourself to fight these wars on the run any more---.

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## Irfan Baloch

I apologise MK

you speak from your heart.

but requesting resignation from people for wrong PoV is unfair. in the end it was their PoV based on whatever information they had and what they made out of it.

I am sure they will keep this mistake in mind in the future.
by the way I didnt doubt you, I am just apologising in case that you didnt like some of my posts

btw Osama, tora bora and JF-17 are totally irrelevant to each other. so its very unkind to mention that.

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## Irfan Baloch

regarding learning and preparing a flight or fight manual (if you will).... the issue of the learning curve from novice to proficient might be true for every new aircraft created

be it J-10
be it Tejas
be it F-35


they are all infants as well as per your assertions. creating a new air craft should'nt be discouraged just because there is no in-house experience on that plane before. thats all i would like to say.

rest I would leave it as your PoV and I have no say about whether buying a western aircraft instead of inventing in JF-17 was a right choice or not. maybe we will be confronted with this dilemma forever and never be able to make one for ourselves. again I will leave the usefulness or uselessness of JF-17 from present day to next 15 years to one side. its subjective judgement... look at the alternative? continue to fly A-5s and canabalized Mirages III and IVs? let your baby out and let him learn himself, he will be bullied and slapped around, you cant control that and cant bypass that...

let this plane mature and face off if and when the time comes. self-preservation is a basic and natural instinct. and if PAF wants to keep itself as a viable and effective force then it would learn, if not then sadly the young will die in the war started by the old people. this cant be helped

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## araz

Araz---strange coment from you about 'no threat now'---doctor---weapons system are not bought for current threats---they are bought for threats that may arise 10 to 15 years from now---whe there is not a iota of any threat around---.

You cannot buy and prepare yourself to fight these wars on the run any more---.[/QUOTE

Mastan Khan.
It is indeed an honour that you have deemed my worthless comment worthy of a response .Especially so since you have chosen to ignore the various responses to your posts which I have made. However thanks anyway.
With regards to my comment the fact remains that currently in the subcontinent there are no threats. The assumed threst from our western border would have been an untenable situation due to the immense disparity and 30- 40 Rafales at130-140 million a piece would not only have broken the frail Pakistani economic back but would stil not have served as a deterrance. So essentially we are talking of the eastern border. With the current buying spree we still have a year or two before the Rafalescome on board. It would take IAF asimilar amount of time to induct and integrate the platform in their offensive/defensive doctrine. So the time aspect was from that point of view. You really need to read the whole post to gleam where I am coming from rather than taking a comment in isolation. As to F16s( though not necessarily block52s) I was relieved to see that our views are in congruity. I look forward to your response but like always will not hold my breath for one.
Regards
Araz

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## Irfan Baloch

razgriz19 said:


>



1 Million Yuan Question


re second Picture
real of CGI?


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## Aamir Hussain

to me it seems real.


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## Donatello

Irfan Baloch said:


> 1 Million Yuan Question
> 
> 
> re second Picture
> real of CGI?



We have already seen the B-version with IRST.......so this may well be real.


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## MastanKhan

Irfan Baloch said:


> I apologise MK
> 
> you speak from your heart.
> 
> but requesting resignation from people for wrong PoV is unfair. in the end it was their PoV based on whatever information they had and what they made out of it.
> 
> I am sure they will keep this mistake in mind in the future.
> by the way I didnt doubt you, I am just apologising in case that you didnt like some of my posts
> 
> btw Osama, tora bora and JF-17 are totally irrelevant to each other. so its very unkind to mention that.



Hi,

Failure of those who brag---if they have any strength of character they must fall on their swords, so with their blood they can wash and purify the scourage of ignorance, arrogance and spite.

I don't speak from the heart about all issues----I speak from historic precedence about most issues---. My input about integration of new aircraft was out of reading hundreds and hundreds of books relating to millitary combat---every one of the top notch writers mentioned about integration and the time it takes to integrate---aircraft---battle ships---subs---troops---a sales team---an office group.

Now---for a nation like the usa---who has over a century of history of producing aircraft---their capabilities of inegrating an aircraft would be on a different level than those of pakistan. 

Pakistani have a vision that their pilots would jump in the driver's seat and do miracle with the plane from day one---and I have been saying no---it will take 6 to 10 years at least.

A first born brand new aircraft is a totally unique mechanical electronic system with a million and one issues that need to be addressed one at a time and for a nation which is entering this race for the very first time---to place all its eggs in this one basket of JF17/FC20 was a terrible mistake.

The israelis started it as well---Lavi project---but they changed directions in mid-stride when they were told of heir folly by the americans. If they had time and minimal threat---they would have carried on with the Lavi but over the hundreds of years of their suffering had made them learn and understand the consequences of betting it all on something new and un-tested.

Nobody does that---when they have an enemy the size of india sitting next door---they go to the all trusted and proven weapons systems.

Pakistan had the lavi moment as well---they should have dumped the JF17 project in favour of FC20 and gone with the BLK 52 in larger numbers. FC20 for the reason of ego.

It is all about Osama---pakistan will have to live it for years to come---if they would have killed him when he was escaping---we would not have seen this misery for our defence forces and there would be no talk of sanctions.

We brought the threat of sanctions upon us for one more time because we did not kill that foreigner---otherwise what were we afraid of for not buying more BLK52's---.



Aamir Hussain said:


> to me it seems real.



You been hibernating????? Haven't seen you for awhile.

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## A.Rafay




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## A.Rafay

J10 Aircraft In FSX Game


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## TAC

What utter nonesense to suggest that you should ditch any ideas of developing your own fighter simply because it would take you so long to write the 'playbook'. The next gem is even better - apparantly JF-17 and FC-20 are a 'terrible mistake' and we should instead have just bought a load more block 52's -- then just sat back and waited for the US to embargo spares as soon as we fail to follow their orders - leaving the PAF with no first line or second line of defence. I have often seen enemies of Pakistan wishing that PAF had been stupid enough to do this.

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## MastanKhan

TAC said:


> What utter nonesense to suggest that you should ditch any ideas of developing your own fighter simply because it would take you so long to write the 'playbook'. The next gem is even better - apparantly JF-17 and FC-20 are a 'terrible mistake' and we should instead have just bought a load more block 52's -- then just sat back and waited for the US to embargo spares as soon as we fail to follow their orders - leaving the PAF with no first line or second line of defence. I have often seen enemies of Pakistan wishing that PAF had been stupid enough to do this.



Senor,

So when would you like to ditch the crown of stupidity and learn to start to use the united states to your advantage.

Now abut the JF17 and FC20---if you did not understand the reason behind it then you don't have the intellect to understand what I have stated. This statement may sound arrogant to you---it actually is meant to be that way---.

With an enemy the size of india to face---pakistan always succeeded with proven and tested systems in the past. To go for two brand new systems---to develop two brand new systems from scratch---and the issue of the power plant still not resolved---the world leadin aircraft weapons system manufacturer dumps you right when the system needs to be integrated ( france )---this setback alone put PAF 3----5 years behind on the JF17---settling for BVR system that still is in its infancy stage---sir---what fools paradise are you living in.

While looking at all these issues and looking at the supporters of these air craft---to me---you people are the true enemies of pakistan in the real sense---you people are supporting items with massive handicaps---while there are items available on the market better and superior than that.

And don't give me the B S of no money----don't burn your trains and buses and properties and don't go on strikes if you want a free and independant pakistan---. If you want to do all that---then it is better to dis-assemble your millitary and make peace with india.

Eihter buy the eurofighter to counter the su30 and rafale or just wave the white flag---bottomline is---between india and pakistan---there is no more a reason to fight---you can't beat indai now----so no reason to fight it----do a coupe de grace---make peace---let them waste their billions on defence items.

If india does not have a threat of war from pakistan---the next war will be between the united states and india---. A day will come when the u s will retaliate against the indians taking all the lucrative jobs in the u s----there will be fire starters in the u s political scenes who will create a firestorm against the indians in due time.

'Playbook' is a very important part of the puzzle---but the most important part is integration.

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## TAC

MastanKhan said:


> Senor,
> 
> So when would you like to ditch the crown of stupidity and learn to start to use the united states to your advantage.
> 
> Now abut the JF17 and FC20---if you did not understand the reason behind it then you don't have the intellect to understand what I have stated. This statement may sound arrogant to you---it actually is meant to be that way---.
> 
> With an enemy the size of india to face---pakistan always succeeded with proven and tested systems in the past. To go for two brand new systems---to develop two brand new systems from scratch---and the issue of the power plant still not resolved---the world leadin aircraft weapons system manufacturer dumps you right when the system needs to be integrated ( france )---this setback alone put PAF 3----5 years behind on the JF17---settling for BVR system that still is in its infancy stage---sir---what fools paradise are you living in.
> 
> While looking at all these issues and looking at the supporters of these air craft---to me---you people are the true enemies of pakistan in the real sense---you people are supporting items with massive handicaps---while there are items available on the market better and superior than that.
> 
> And don't give me the B S of no money----don't burn your trains and buses and properties and don't go on strikes if you want a free and independant pakistan---. If you want to do all that---then it is better to dis-assemble your millitary and make peace with india.
> 
> Eihter buy the eurofighter to counter the su30 and rafale or just wave the white flag---bottomline is---between india and pakistan---there is no more a reason to fight---you can't beat indai now----so no reason to fight it----do a coupe de grace---make peace---let them waste their billions on defence items.
> 
> If india does not have a threat of war from pakistan---the next war will be between the united states and india---. A day will come when the u s will retaliate against the indians taking all the lucrative jobs in the u s----there will be fire starters in the u s political scenes who will create a firestorm against the indians in due time.
> 
> 'Playbook' is a very important part of the puzzle---but the most important part is integration.



You call me stupid and lacking in intellect yet you are the one who says - and I quote ' the next war will be between the united states and india---. A day will come when the u s will retaliate against the indians taking all the lucrative jobs in the u s' --- After that little gem - I don't think anyone is in any doubt about who is actualy stupid.

So you think JF-17 should have been dumped because the manual will take too long to write and the FC-20 is a waste of time - instead you think we should have bought as many block 52's as we could. So what would you do when your uncle sam blocked spares - Or is your grand strategy that Pakistan should just do whatever your US wants to avoid such sanctions??

Buying limited block 52's and developing JF-17 and FC-20 was the best decision PAF has ever made.

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## MZUBAIR

I feel PAF wont get any J10, Its been more then 5 years the deal was signed and not a signle AC in PAF fleet besides there is no official news or discussion on this deal.....So it looks dead.


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## MastanKhan

TAC said:


> You call me stupid and lacking in intellect yet you are the one who says - and I quote ' the next war will be between the united states and india---. A day will come when the u s will retaliate against the indians taking all the lucrative jobs in the u s' --- After that little gem - I don't think anyone is in any doubt about who is actualy stupid.
> 
> So you think JF-17 should have been dumped because the manual will take too long to write and the FC-20 is a waste of time - instead you think we should have bought as many block 52's as we could. So what would you do when your uncle sam blocked spares - Or is your grand strategy that Pakistan should just do whatever your US wants to avoid such sanctions??
> 
> Buying limited block 52's and developing JF-17 and FC-20 was the best decision PAF has ever made.



Hi,

Oh my innocent boy---haven't you read up on that---. One of the retired indian admirals has written a nice work of fiction about it. Would they become reality---who knows---knowing india as I do----they will. There are some ego issues that indians need to take care of----but that is okay---you don't need to know----.

War could possibly start on high seas---and american battle groups want right of way from the indian battle group---you know every other ship has to move away from the american fleet---and this one time the indian force doesnot want to budge due to certain things that have assumedly happened---.

Just had a chat with a u s foreign office worker a few days ago---india is asking to build a larger embassy in the u s---the u s is refusing to give them space---indian has controlled the movement of u s embassy personale---that happened last year.

The i=recent issue with the female indian ambassador in florida---the issue with indian defence minister A K Antony---the issue with retd indian president.

Secondly---americans if instigated enough against the indians by hate groups---terrible things can happen----if the economy takes a turn for the worst----.

High school students--white males and females are talking about not continuing college education---asked why---they stated---they can't get any jobs and the loan would be too much to pay back---. A illte fire lit over here---a little fire lit over there---can start some serious issues---.

58 posts in 7 years---it is better that you stay leaned back in your arm chair and enjoy the scenery.

Just like you don't get upset when the teacher spanks you in the school---just take them as a learning experience. Thank you.

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## SBD-3

HobbyShanghai is also saying that J-10B production is expected to start soon however the engine will be AL-31FN
8.20


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## fatman17

MZUBAIR said:


> I feel PAF wont get any J10, Its been more then 5 years the deal was signed and not a signle AC in PAF fleet besides there is no official news or discussion on this deal.....So it looks dead.



it was a MoU subject to conditions which we are not privey too. the russians have not given an export licence to china to fit their engines on FC-20. so we have no other choice but to wait until a chinese engine is ready to be given the go-ahead signal for mass production. the J-10's in PLAAF service are SRP (slow-rate production) as there are still quality and dependability issues. PAF wont risk investing US$ 1.5B on faulty chinese engines.


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## KRAIT

Oscar said in one of his post that Pakistan is struggling for interest on the soft loan for these aircrafts. Can any one verify or shed some light on it ?


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## TaimiKhan

KRAIT said:


> Oscar said in one of his post that Pakistan is struggling for interest on the soft loan for these aircrafts. Can any one verify or shed some light on it ?



I think by looking at the economic conditions of Pakistan, this should be very much true, as we are facing very bad economic situation and paying old loans would be a problem and getting new ones would also be a problem.

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

now PAF is directly talking to russians for al-31 engine , 
sources say that russia may decide about it within few months


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## KRAIT

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> now PAF is directly talking to russians for al-31 engine ,
> sources say that russia may decide about it within few months


Very much possible considering recent steps taken by both the govts. regarding cooperation.


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## TAC

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Oh my innocent boy---haven't you read up on that---. One of the retired indian admirals has written a nice work of fiction about it. Would they become reality---who knows---knowing india as I do----they will. There are some ego issues that indians need to take care of----but that is okay---you don't need to know----.
> 
> War could possibly start on high seas---and american battle groups want right of way from the indian battle group---you know every other ship has to move away from the american fleet---and this one time the indian force doesnot want to budge due to certain things that have assumedly happened---.
> 
> Just had a chat with a u s foreign office worker a few days ago---india is asking to build a larger embassy in the u s---the u s is refusing to give them space---indian has controlled the movement of u s embassy personale---that happened last year.
> 
> The i=recent issue with the female indian ambassador in florida---the issue with indian defence minister A K Antony---the issue with retd indian president.
> 
> Secondly---americans if instigated enough against the indians by hate groups---terrible things can happen----if the economy takes a turn for the worst----.
> 
> High school students--white males and females are talking about not continuing college education---asked why---they stated---they can't get any jobs and the loan would be too much to pay back---. A illte fire lit over here---a little fire lit over there---can start some serious issues---.
> 
> 58 posts in 7 years---it is better that you stay leaned back in your arm chair and enjoy the scenery.
> 
> Just like you don't get upset when the teacher spanks you in the school---just take them as a learning experience. Thank you.



What sort of jibberish is this? This is your list of reasons why the next war will be between US and India?? Looks like your teacher spanked you so hard that she did some permanant damage to your brain. Regarding number of posts - doing lots more posts than me does not mean anything if your posts are full of rubbish like the one quoted above. I recall some of your other 'valuable' posts where you have argued that Pakistanis dare not talk to white people and Pakistanis lack intelligence.

I suggest you at least try to stick to the topic. Pakistan learned the hard way that leaving itself reliant on your US for its defence was a grave mistake and one that they were not stupid enough to repeat. The JF-17 with roadmap for 100% production in Pakistan and the FC-20 from reliable partner CATIC are infineately more important and more valuable than any number of off the shelf F-16's from your US.


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## A.Muqeet khan

TAC said:


> What sort of jibberish is this? This is your list of reasons why the next war will be between US and India?? Looks like your teacher spanked you so hard that she did some permanant damage to your brain. Regarding number of posts - doing lots more posts than me does not mean anything if your posts are full of rubbish like the one quoted above. I recall some of your other 'valuable' posts where you have argued that Pakistanis dare not talk to white people and Pakistanis lack intelligence.
> 
> I suggest you at least try to stick to the topic. Pakistan learned the hard way that leaving itself reliant on your US for its defence was a grave mistake and one that they were not stupid enough to repeat. The JF-17 with roadmap for 100% production in Pakistan and the FC-20 from reliable partner CATIC are infineately more important and more valuable than any number of off the shelf F-16's from your US.


my dear sir plz be civil talk logically or not dont start with yo mama insults its doesnt make u look Good


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## TAC

MZUBAIR said:


> I feel PAF wont get any J10, Its been more then 5 years the deal was signed and not a signle AC in PAF fleet besides there is no official news or discussion on this deal.....So it looks dead.



I think we need to show some patience. According to the last timeline given by a PAF ACM -- Pakistan will have 36-40 FC-20's by 2016 (afm interview) -- that date is still 4 years away. Given the limited number of F-16's PAF has bought and the procurement plans of India -- I think there can be very little doubt that FC-20 version of J-10 will join the PAF in due coarse. With regard to economic situation - I think you will agree that Pakistans economic situation was as bad or worse when it - bought F-16's, F-16 upgrades, 50-100 JF-17's, set up JF-17 factory, Bought Saab AWACS, Bought refuelers etc etc. Money for FC-20's will be found in the same way when it is needed.



A.Muqeet khan said:


> my dear sir plz be civil talk logically or not dont start with yo mama insults its doesnt make u look Good



I don't think there is anything ilogical in my post. As for 'yo mama insults' - whatever they are --- If you bothered to read Mastan Khans previous posts you will see that I have reacted in a very measured way to provocation. If he says stupid things like next war will be between US and India and JF-17 should have been cancelled because the manual will take too long to write - what do you want?


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## A.Rafay

A few pictures of the Chengdu J-10 cockpit:


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## Nishan_101

Although we are getting some J-10BS but I am hopeful that these would going to be produce at PAC Kamra and in numbers like 50-70.


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## MastanKhan

TAC said:


> What sort of jibberish is this? This is your list of reasons why the next war will be between US and India?? Looks like your teacher spanked you so hard that she did some permanant damage to your brain. Regarding number of posts - doing lots more posts than me does not mean anything if your posts are full of rubbish like the one quoted above. I recall some of your other 'valuable' posts where you have argued that Pakistanis dare not talk to white people and Pakistanis lack intelligence.
> 
> I suggest you at least try to stick to the topic. Pakistan learned the hard way that leaving itself reliant on your US for its defence was a grave mistake and one that they were not stupid enough to repeat. The JF-17 with roadmap for 100% production in Pakistan and the FC-20 from reliable partner CATIC are infineately more important and more valuable than any number of off the shelf F-16's from your US.



Hi,

Welcome---you got some fire in you---okay---I am too old to be spanked by a teacher----. See---my boy---'pin pricks start wars'---you know who stated that---. See here---a slight has you fuming and steaming---.

Wars sometime start on very silly things---like the treatment with the indian diplomats---.

Actually I don't want to go any further---' can't argue with a fool---he would beat you with experience'---sorry---enjoy your stay


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## Tameem

A.Muqeet khan said:


> my dear sir plz be civil talk logically or not dont start with yo mama insults its doesnt make u look Good



Actually, MK gets what he asked for; His opposing views on JF-17 whole concept are well known and thoroughly debated, No one denies its technical strengths..but at the same time rejected by majority of us here due to the very nature of Love-Hate relationship between US and Pakistan.

Technically, A re-union of India-Pakistan brings us a lot of goodies including the status of a Super Power as well but does it sounds correct politically as well which matters most in the end? He fails to digest this plain aspect of the matter in past numerous years despite sincere efforts and stuck to shows ignorance rhetorically every now and than, Its just likeAa bail mujhey maar!!


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## A.Rafay

Nishan_101 said:


> Although we are getting some J-10BS but I am hopeful that these would going to be produce at PAC Kamra and in numbers like 50-70.



How do you know, Has the china allowed it or is it a joint program? No, then how come it will be made at PAC considering we dont have its parts and the whole structure, Paf will only buy 30 of these from china, they are very good fighter Planes and maybe they are advanced than PAC to Build.Any News?


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## razgriz19

http://img3.itiexue.net/1534/15345879.jpg

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## killerx

Nishan_101 said:


> Although we are getting some J-10BS but I am hopeful that these would going to be produce at PAC Kamra and in numbers like 50-70.



dont think so may be they will allow them to overhaul the jet if the fleet is larger then 150 wit can be done in time


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## Nishan_101

killerx said:


> dont think so may be they will allow them to overhaul the jet if the fleet is larger then 150 wit can be done in time


 
May be, I think PAF might get 50 J-10BS in the name of 30 and If not wrong then JF-17 Block-IIs will have similar avionics and sensor suite as J-10BS.


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## SBD-3

J-10 Bomb Truck.......

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## Manticore

please dont hotlink the pictures from ''private'' sites , upload them on a public photo sharing server so that all can view the pic


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## aimarraul



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## A.Rafay

I want to see this bird in PAF ASAP,Do they have any plans to induct this in 2013 our leaders are going to china evry two months!


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## SBD-3

razgriz19 said:


> http://img3.itiexue.net/1534/15345879.jpg


So 1031 is back, wonder where 1035 is, Yanilang?


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## SBD-3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvJlu_aUjEw

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## Introvert

When are we getting them again?


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## fatman17

Baazi said:


> When are we getting them again?



not for a while mate!

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## Pak47




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## Dazzler

Bear Studios J-10B product preview movie 01 - YouTube

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## SBD-3

J-20 and J-10B duo is back, New J-10AS keep coming out, PLAANAF?


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## SBD-3

nabil_05 said:


> Bear Studios J-10B product preview movie 01 - YouTube


Nice one!, But AFAIK, this was rumored to be J-10B cockpit. 












Much more digitized than the one they are showing.


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## SQ8

That may not be the actual cockpit, since it has become a practice in simulators to use touchscreens to simulate buttons. 
Since the conditions arent very demanding these commercial level screens can be used to simulate cockpit switches and buttons.

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## a1b2c145

aimarraul said:


> http://i48.tinypic.com/rcslts.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]
> JF-17 doesn't have many weapons????????
> [IMG]http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_1209/27_102825_59f291faea0b75e.jpg

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## salman77

Baazi said:


> When are we getting them again?



Our main priority is JF-17.


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## A.Rafay

a1b2c145 said:


>



*look At this amazing bird we have got!* We want J10 Its a very good Aircraft And Looks Cool Too


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

a1b2c145 said:


> JF-17 doesn't have many weapons????????


this pic looks to be photo shopped


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## mylovepakistan

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> this pic looks to be photo shopped



LOL!

military-photoshops.blogspot.com speaks of itself...


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## SBD-3




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## Xracer

any dates from officials about j10 coming to PAKISTAN???????????


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## Storm Force

XRACER.

According to some senior MODS there is no deal to sign J10/FC20 as yet only speculation 

STRANGE since the PLAAF have over 200 in service since 2006 

YET not a deal in sight 

Despite the obvious fact it would be a HUGE increase in PAF capability over their present fleet of JFT MIRAGES & F7s 

And imo is needed to answer the EVER growing SU30MKI threat


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## Viper0011.

Oscar said:


> That may not be the actual cockpit, since it has become a practice in simulators to use touchscreens to simulate buttons.
> Since the conditions arent very demanding these commercial level screens can be used to simulate cockpit switches and buttons.



Oscar (or others), I am no expert on PAF's decisions or on FC-20. But I wanted to ask. Even though a very potent platform from what I can tell, it's still a 4th gen product, similar to Mirage 2009 or Rafale (about 80-90%). 
So, doesn't it make sense for PAF to opt for J-31 and J-11's / 16's? Those are bigger planes with larger weapons carrying capabilities and plus J-31 is stealth too....so please share some details on the mindset there.
To me, (I know money's an issue) I'd try to get the best of the best once. PAF knows India is heavily going for Rafale, Su-30 and then in the future it'll be T-50. So instead of countering T-50 later, why not do that now with J-31 or other options. By doing so, you just cut the competition with SU-30 and Rafale as you went towards much more sophisticated capability..


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## SBD-3

orangzaib said:


> Oscar (or others), I am no expert on PAF's decisions or on FC-20. But I wanted to ask. Even though a very potent platform from what I can tell, it's still a 4th gen product, similar to Mirage 2009 or Rafale (about 80-90%).
> So, doesn't it make sense for PAF to opt for J-31 and J-11's / 16's? Those are bigger planes with larger weapons carrying capabilities and plus J-31 is stealth too....so please share some details on the mindset there.
> To me, (I know money's an issue) I'd try to get the best of the best once. PAF knows India is heavily going for Rafale, Su-30 and then in the future it'll be T-50. So instead of countering T-50 later, why not do that now with J-31 or other options. By doing so, you just cut the competition with SU-30 and Rafale as you went towards much more sophisticated capability..


J-31 has just bursted on the scence and yet to make her first flight. Even if i am very optimisitic, it would not be available to even PLAAF before 2019-2022 (eventhough i am still skeptical over its market prospect given JSF and other products like PAK-FA would already be sweeping the market before J-31 makes her debute in international market). We need a deterrent before that which can not be a fifth gen (unless US offers us JSF - an unlikely event-). So even if FC-20 is 90% as capable as rafale, PAF will take it. 
J-11s and J-16s are fairly out of question because of their predominent tilt in capabilities (A2A and Strike respectively). PAF's focus is on procuring hardcore multirole platform. It is surprising that J-10 was initially designed to be an air superiority fighter. Thats why PAF was initially hesitent towards J-10. Now even the PLAAF is realizing the potential gains of multirole fleet with new J-10s being increasingly more verstaile at the use of A2A and A2G. SAC's products have been fairly specialized on the other hand.


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## SBD-3

Xracer said:


> any dates from officials about j10 coming to PAKISTAN???????????


PShamim shaib had disclosed a while ago that technical negotiations had been complete, however, he didn't disclosed about the status of commercial negotiations. So I think you should be fairly patient, when something would be allowed to leak, it would be on fora in no-time.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Storm Force said:


> XRACER.
> 
> According to some senior MODS there is no deal to sign J10/FC20 as yet only speculation
> 
> STRANGE since the PLAAF have over 200 in service since 2006
> 
> YET not a deal in sight
> 
> Despite the obvious fact it would be a HUGE increase in PAF capability over their present fleet of JFT MIRAGES & F7s
> 
> And imo is needed to answer the EVER growing SU30MKI threat


su-30's threat isn't that much as people believe , 
other thing it has been told many times that we have been offered j-10 but we want j-10b / fc-20 ..
it is will there with us in time of need


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## Nishan_101

hasnain0099 said:


> J-20 and J-10B duo is back, New J-10AS keep coming out, PLAANAF?



Although would be great for the PAF to invest just 10-15% in J-10 Program to gain manufacturing and assembling facility at PAC to manufacture:
*50 J-10s/F-10P(30 J-10 and 20 J-10S)
70 J-10BS/F-10P
70 J-10CS/F-10P*


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## SBD-3

Nishan_101 said:


> Although would be great for the PAF to invest just 10-15% in J-10 Program to gain manufacturing and assembling facility at PAC to manufacture:
> *50 J-10s/F-10P(30 J-10 and 20 J-10S)
> 70 J-10BS/F-10P
> 70 J-10CS/F-10P*


The decision to invest is not with anyone, as falsely precieved here. Remember US *Invited* the partners to invest in JSF program, Russia *Invited* India in PAK-FA program, CAC *Invited* PAF to invest in JF-17 program and South Korea *Invited* Indonesia to invest in KFX program. So its not everybody's decision to just go and put up the money.


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## SQ8

orangzaib said:


> Oscar (or others), I am no expert on PAF's decisions or on FC-20. But I wanted to ask. Even though a very potent platform from what I can tell, it's still a 4th gen product, similar to Mirage 2009 or Rafale (about 80-90%).
> So, *doesn't it make sense for PAF to opt for J-31 and J-11's / 16's?* Those are bigger planes with larger weapons carrying capabilities and plus J-31 is stealth too....so please share some details on the mindset there.
> To me, (I know money's an issue) I'd try to get the best of the best once. PAF knows India is heavily going for Rafale, Su-30 and then in the future it'll be T-50. So instead of countering T-50 later, why not do that now with J-31 or other options. By doing so, you just cut the competition with SU-30 and Rafale as you went towards much more sophisticated capability..



The J-10 has been an in service platform for over a decade now, its kinks have all been worked out.
Moreover, the newer J-10B is claimed to be almost as good as any eurocanard in A2A combat by those that have evaluated the aircraft.
Ideally, the PAF would have preferred to have a deep strike capability with the J-10B coming in service to complement the F-16 Block-52's..along with providing an air superiority asset.
Any 5th gen platforms were planned 2020 onwards and that too was preffered to have been done with countries other than China for Diversity reasons.
However, as funds would have it.. the PAF is plain broke as it is.. with no money to pay off even the interest on the many loans it has taken to buy equipment.
Till that situation improves.. the JF-17s and the F-16's are the platforms it will have to contend with.


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## INDIAISM

Storm Force said:


> XRACER.
> 
> According to some senior MODS there is no deal to sign J10/FC20 as yet only speculation
> 
> STRANGE since the PLAAF have over 200 in service since 2006
> 
> YET not a deal in sight
> 
> Despite the obvious fact it would be a HUGE increase in PAF capability over their present fleet of JFT MIRAGES & F7s
> 
> And imo is needed to answer the EVER growing *SU30MKI* threat


Not Again...Buddy i am also an Indian and i am proud of my airforce *''Flanker H''*.....But that doesn't mean that i will keep bringing it in every other post....i mean fine I know,they know and their airforce know that we have this beast........what mor do you want....

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## SBD-3

PLAN's first J-10s

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## mosu

hasnain0099 said:


> PLAN's first J-10s



beautiful pictures dear thanx for sharing p

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## Donatello

No twin seaters for the J-10B version?


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## SBD-3

J-10B with SDBs, Fuel Tanks and Combat ready Missiles.

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## mosu

hasnain0099 said:


> J-10B with SDBs, Fuel Tanks and Combat ready Missiles.



again beautiful pictures where from u getting these brother

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## SBD-3

laghari said:


> again beautiful pictures where from u getting these brother


Search around the net, visit various other fora.


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## SBD-3



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## Bratva

counted 11 loaded hardpoints and 2 unused hardpoints. These 2 unused hardpoints are in a weird location. Dual racks blocking their access. If something singular put in that place, i think it will still cause trouble to that hardpoint


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## Donatello

mafiya said:


> counted 11 loaded hardpoints and 2 unused hardpoints. These 2 unused hardpoints are in a weird location. Dual racks blocking their access. If something singular put in that place, i think it will still cause trouble to that hardpoint



I think the part you are mistaking for an unused hardpoint is actually a 'flap track fairing' which encloses the actuator/mechanism for the deployment of flaps.

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## razgriz19

mafiya said:


> counted 11 loaded hardpoints and 2 unused hardpoints. These 2 unused hardpoints are in a weird location. Dual racks blocking their access. If something singular put in that place, i think it will still cause trouble to that hardpoint



J-10 has only 11 hard points.
those two points behind the dual racks are just actuators for ailerons.


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## DANGER-ZONE

hasnain0099 said:


>



Woah.. 10031 undergoing minor modifications and Pilot tube has already been removed. 
10031 is the very first J-10B PT as I remembered. Its really a lovely jet.


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## sancho

hasnain0099 said:


> J-10B with SDBs, Fuel Tanks and Combat ready Missiles.



Afaik that are only trial or dumb bombs and this is not a realistic combat config either. The fuselage hardpoints have weight and size restrictions which doesn't allow to carry guided bombs and you can see it in these pics pretty well. The gear bays are the limiting factor here, not to mention that the forward hardpoints are basically podstations.
However, that's why the twin pylons at the wingstations are so important for J10, because it might need to carry 2 fuel tanks on any strike mission. The downside is, that there is no hardpoint left for BVR missiles, which means you need dedicated escort fighters as well.


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## TaimiKhan

sancho said:


> Afaik that are only trial or dumb bombs and this is not a realistic combat config either. The fuselage hardpoints have weight and size restrictions which doesn't allow to carry guided bombs and you can see it in these pics pretty well. The gear bays are the limiting factor here, not to mention that the forward hardpoints are basically podstations.
> However, that's why the twin pylons at the wingstations are so important for J10, because it might need to carry 2 fuel tanks on any strike mission. The downside is, that there is no hardpoint left for BVR missiles, which means you need dedicated escort fighters as well.



J-10 can carry the smaller guided weapons on these pods under the fuselage. Chinese have developed 50KG & 100KG bomb kits, which can easily be installed on these pods without any weight or height issue. They are not just for dumb bombs. The current picture is most probably of a testing plane J-10B with full load configuration possible with it. 

PLA Guided Bombs

A J-10 with even WVR missile on the under fuselage hard points.

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## sancho

TaimiKhan said:


> J-10 can carry the smaller guided weapons on these pods under the fuselage. Chinese have developed 50KG & 100KG bomb kits, which can easily be installed on these pods without any weight or height issue. They are not just for dumb bombs. The current picture is most probably of a testing plane J-10B with full load configuration possible with it.



Possible, but besides that are also hardly useful in most strike roles and it still depends on the lenght of the guidance kit (LGBs), if the gear bays are in the way or not. There are more chances for the podstations, since they are located in front of the bays, but then again for LGBs at least one station would be occupied with the LDP. 
It's the same problem that the Mirage 2000-5 has as well, it can carry 4 xMICA or even 4 x AASM 250 at the fuselage stations, but longer missiles like Meteor, bigger AASM version or even the GBU 12 might be too long.


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## DANGER-ZONE

TaimiKhan said:


> A J-10 with even* WVR missile *on the under fuselage hard points.



Its BVR Missile PL-12 Bro.

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## farhan_9909

each weighs about 200kg

which means the hardpoints are capable enough of carrying dumb bombs under 200kg,wvr, and bvr


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## Donatello

danger-zone said:


> Woah.. 10031 undergoing minor modifications and Pilot tube has already been removed.
> 10031 is the very first J-10B PT as I remembered. Its really a lovely jet.



I think you mean Pi*t*ot.............it is still there, you need them for accurate air speed readouts.

But nonetheless, 1031 seems to be one fine bird.


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## monitor

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oIjhx6axI...++aesa+radar+fighter+jet+aircraft+%287%29.jpg

A People's Liberation Army Air Force J-10 Vanguard Vigorous Dragon fires BVRAAM


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## DANGER-ZONE

Donatello said:


> I think you mean *Pitot*.............it is still there, you need them for accurate air speed readouts.
> 
> But nonetheless, 1031 seems to be one fine bird.



Thanks for the correction but i was talking about Nose Pitot Tube which we usually see in initial Flight Trials of PTs.


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## SBD-3

danger-zone said:


> Thanks for the correction but i was talking about Nose Pitot Tube which we usually see in initial Flight Trials of PTs.


The bird is most likely captured at CFTE cuz aside from 1031,1033 we haven't seen anyother protoype till 1035 appread. Where were the other two (1032, 1034) and how do they look like, we dont know. Even this aircraft doesn't carry any serial number which means that it is neither 1031 nor 1035.


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## Donatello

Let J-10 mature, because by the time MMRCA is complete with India, it would have been a lot of time. So J-10 can be customized. Remember the Eurofighter consortium is still wanting to sell not only their aircraft but a comparable technology in forms of radars/missiles/computers etc. Europeans would be easier for Pakistan to bring and negotiate at the table, as most European nations where Eurofighter and EADs do their business are in desperate need of cash. They'll even deal in a few millions. If PAF remains unsatisfied, maybe it can take technology from Europe for not only J-10 but JF-17s. However, the only problem seems to be cash.

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## mosu

Donatello said:


> Let J-10 mature, because by the time MMRCA is complete with India, it would have been a lot of time. So J-10 can be customized. Remember the Eurofighter consortium is still wanting to sell not only their aircraft but a comparable technology in forms of radars/missiles/computers etc. Europeans would be easier for Pakistan to bring and negotiate at the table, as most European nations where Eurofighter and EADs do their business are in desperate need of cash. They'll even deal in a few millions. If PAF remains unsatisfied, maybe it can take technology from Europe for not only J-10 but JF-17s. However, the only problem seems to be cash.



dear cash is the main problem of pakistan


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## CHNTiger

&#27004;&#19978;&#20013;&#22269;&#20154;&#65311;Are you chinese? I am a new guy here ...


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## Safriz

laghari said:


> dear cash is the main problem of pakistan



And engines..
Not enough engines for export to Pakistan.


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## razgriz19

if there is cash the engines will flow in by their selves.


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## Safriz

razgriz19 said:


> if there is cash the engines will flow in by their selves.



No they wont..
Even china's own requirement not being met at the moment..
Why do you think kayani rushed to moscow?

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## Donatello

Safriz said:


> No they wont..
> Even china's own requirement not being met at the moment..
> Why do you think kayani rushed to moscow?



Cannot believe that you, Safriz, is making such a statement.

Oh bhai jaan, walk into the power corridors of the Russian state or Europe, with a billion or so dollars in cash for engines, and see how quickly they sell it to you.

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## Dr. Strangelove

Donatello said:


> Cannot believe that you, Safriz, is making such a statement.
> 
> Oh bhai jaan, walk into the power corridors of the Russian state or Europe, with a billion or so dollars in cash for engines, and see how quickly they sell it to you.


they arnt gonna sell it to us 
even with a billion dollllars


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## showstopper

Hi, folks. It's been a while since I've been keeping track of PAF developments so what's the latest on these planes? Reading the last few pages it seems like there are engine supply issues? Delivery is still expected in 2014, yes? Last I checked there was some confusion on the whether the Pakistani version would be J-10A or J-10B. Has that been cleared up?

Been keeping tabs on this bird for years now. Hoping to see it integrated soon.


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## SBD-3

Looks Like a J-10 Production Schedule....50 J-10Bs are expected to enter PLAAF by 2015

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## Esc8781

Has this pic been posted already?

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## Thorough Pro

What did I miss? What's the significance of this pic?


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## SBD-3

Esc8781 said:


> Has this pic been posted already?



Probably these were the pics of Venezuelan delegation inspecting J-10. I can remember that they inspected both J-10 as well as FC-1 during their visit


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## April.lyrics

hasnain0099 said:


> J-10B with SDBs, Fuel Tanks and Combat ready Missiles.



i dont have definite proofs but these pics seems to be PSed pics.

generally,pics like those would stir up chinese military forums like CD or FY.However i didnt see threads there about those pics.so i just infer they are fake pics.they seems to be fishing pics made by some fans.


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## Najam Khan

April.lyrics said:


> i dont have definite proofs but these pics seems to be PSed pics.
> 
> generally,pics like those would stir up chinese military forums like CD or FY.*However i didnt see threads there about those pics.so i just infer they are fake pics.*they seems to be fishing pics made by some fans.



Not a good explanation. The shadows on weapons in these photos are same as the ones on aircraft, which concludes that same light is falling on them.


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## xuxu1457



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## April.lyrics

Najam Khan said:


> Not a good explanation. The shadows on weapons in these photos are same as the ones on aircraft, which concludes that same light is falling on them.



i also hope they were real pics.but my experience of surfing military forums tells me not.maybe i am wrong this time.
here is another unreasonable point:its weapon load.we know J10B is still being test.it should carry mockup missile or bombs rather than real ones.in fact we have seen J10A being test carrying two multiple missile rails,with four white(or red,i forget) pl12 mockups.and we have confirmed pics that J10A with two rails(3 missile on them) and three fuel tanks.we also have pics J10B tested with two red missile mockups.what i want to point out here is whether J10A or J10B are tested in CAC,the photos taken there only show them with missile mockups.i have never seen pics with both bombs and fuel tanks on a test prototype in CAC.
combining this with the reason in 5903,i think its ps work.
still,my experience maybe wrong as i began to pay attention to those forums since last year.but there are some apparent clues you can follow if something important(J10B,J20,J31,J16,etc.) happen.mostly 'insiders' show up in those threads and 'give out some secrets'.and a thread like that would have hundreds replies in just a few hours.


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## giant panda

April.lyrics said:


> i also hope they were real pics.but my experience of surfing military forums tells me not.maybe i am wrong this time.
> here is another unreasonable point:its weapon load.we know J10B is still being test.it should carry mockup missile or bombs rather than real ones.in fact we have seen J10A being test carrying two multiple missile rails,with four white(or red,i forget) pl12 mockups.and we have confirmed pics that J10A with two rails(3 missile on them) and three fuel tanks.we also have pics J10B tested with two red missile mockups.what i want to point out here is whether J10A or J10B are tested in CAC,the photos taken there only show them with missile mockups.i have never seen pics with both bombs and fuel tanks on a test prototype in CAC.
> combining this with the reason in 5903,i think its ps work.
> still,my experience maybe wrong as i began to pay attention to those forums since last year.but there are some apparent clues you can follow if something important(J10B,J20,J31,J16,etc.) happen.mostly 'insiders' show up in those threads and 'give out some secrets'.and a thread like that would have hundreds replies in just a few hours.


This is a real photo from WeiMeng top81.com
&#20804;&#24351;&#65292;&#36825;&#26159;&#30495;&#22270;&#65292;&#23041;&#29467;&#30340;&#40718;&#30427;&#29579;&#26397;&#22270;&#65292;&#20320;&#27004;&#19978;&#36825;&#20301;&#26159;ps&#19987;&#23478;&#12290;


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## April.lyrics

giant panda said:


> This is a real photo from WeiMeng top81.com
> &#20804;&#24351;&#65292;&#36825;&#26159;&#30495;&#22270;&#65292;&#23041;&#29467;&#30340;&#40718;&#30427;&#29579;&#26397;&#22270;&#65292;&#20320;&#27004;&#19978;&#36825;&#20301;&#26159;ps&#19987;&#23478;&#12290;



i first saw them in sina military.

&#26159;&#30495;&#22270;&#21834;&#65311;&#36825;&#22270;&#35201;&#26159;&#22312;&#36229;&#22823;&#20986;&#26469;&#32943;&#23450;&#19968;&#22534;&#20154;&#35752;&#35770;&#12290;&#21487;&#26159;&#27809;&#35265;&#26377;&#36825;&#20010;&#22270;&#30340;&#24086;&#23376;&#21834;&#12290;&#12290;


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## giant panda

April.lyrics said:


> i first saw them in sina military.
> 
> &#26159;&#30495;&#22270;&#21834;&#65311;&#36825;&#22270;&#35201;&#26159;&#22312;&#36229;&#22823;&#20986;&#26469;&#32943;&#23450;&#19968;&#22534;&#20154;&#35752;&#35770;&#12290;&#21487;&#26159;&#27809;&#35265;&#26377;&#36825;&#20010;&#22270;&#30340;&#24086;&#23376;&#21834;&#12290;&#12290;





Çó´ËJ10BÍ¼´óÍ¼ Ð»Ð»£¡| Ó¥»÷³¤¿Õ - ·ÉÑï¾üÊÂ ÐñÈÕ³ö¶«·½£¬¾«²ÊÔÚ·ÉÑï


----------



## April.lyrics

giant panda said:


> Çó´ËJ10BÍ¼´óÍ¼ Ð»Ð»£¡| Ó¥»÷³¤¿Õ - ·ÉÑï¾üÊÂ ÐñÈÕ³ö¶«·½£¬¾«²ÊÔÚ·ÉÑï



well,seems i was wrong.
its nice to see J10B growing up.



giant panda said:


> Çó´ËJ10BÍ¼´óÍ¼ Ð»Ð»£¡| Ó¥»÷³¤¿Õ - ·ÉÑï¾üÊÂ ÐñÈÕ³ö¶«·½£¬¾«²ÊÔÚ·ÉÑï



well,seems i was wrong.
its nice to see J10B growing up.


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## yusheng

********.com - Pakistan will get 40 Chinese J10ï¼in 2014

this vid shows some characters of J10 , especially its flying maneuverability, see its tail diving.

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## SBD-3

Some more J-10B pics

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## 帅的一匹

Again, when will these lovely birds inducted in PAF, any latest news for that?

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## Arsalan

wanglaokan said:


> Again, when will these lovely birds inducted in PAF, any latest news for that?



nothing. its not even inked yet, no confirmation of dates till them.
if we go for speculation, perhaps around 2014 when JFT (Block-II) have been inducted in numbers (around 100, 5 to 6 Squadrons)

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## 帅的一匹

I think the induction will be at 2014, sure be earlier than Indian Rafale. Acoording to reliable source, PLA will induct J10B no less than 180 units.


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## sancho

wanglaokan said:


> I think the induction will be at 2014, sure be earlier than Indian Rafale. Acoording to reliable source, PLA will induct J10B no less than 180 units.


More interesting would be reliable infos about the final technical capablity of the fighter and it's final specs! PESA or AESA, emptyweight, engine thrust, new avionics...


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## IceCold

sancho said:


> More interesting would be reliable infos about the final technical capablity of the fighter and it's final specs! PESA or AESA, emptyweight, engine thrust, new avionics...



Does it really matter when we wont be getting it anytime soon and by the time we do, it really will not make much of a difference in terms of technically capability.


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## fatman17

Thursday, October 18, 2012


*Status of J-10* 


Recently, we've seen what appears to be the last batch of J-10A fighter jets making their test flights. The 6th batch of J-10As number all the way up to 637 were seeing making test flights. That indicates there are at least 37 J-10As in this 6th batch. There were also at least 37 J-10As in the 6th batch. One of the commonly asked questions now that J-10A is drawing to a close is how many of these planes are there. If we assume that each of 6 J-10A and 2 J-10S batches have around 37 aircraft, then theer would be 8 * 37 = 296 J-10s. Based on the number of actual regiments we've seen, this seems to be quite unlikely. While the 2nd j-10S batch and the last 2 J-10A batch have produced between 35 to 40 J-10s, the earlier batches probably had smaller number of aircraft.

As far as we can tell, there are 7 PLAAF regiments of J-10 (in 44, 3, 2, 1, 24, 9, 15th division) and 1 PLANAF regiment. In addition, there are also 12 J-10s serving at the August first flight demonstration team and somewhere betwen 15 and 20 J-10s serving with FTTC as aggressor squad. There should be 24 J-10s serving in the PLANAF regiment and 28 J-10s serving in most PLAAF regiments (although we may have 36 serving in the 24th division regiment). Assuming that the last batch of J-10s will be used to fully form the 15th division regiment, we should have at most 24 + 12 + 20 + 28 * 6 + 36 = 260 J-10s in service at that time. If we factor in a few crashed and replaced J-10s, we are only around 30 off that first calculation of 296 J-10s.

The next question is whether or not the number of engines adds up. Based on some help from fellow SDF member asif iqbal, it seems like the delivery of AL-31FN from Russia have been the following.

54 ordered in 2000 delivered between 2001-2005
100 ordered in 2005 delivered between 2005-2008
122 ordered in 2009 delivered between 2010-2011
123 ordered in 2011 delivery&#8217;s due between 2011-2013

That would represent 399 AL-31FNs delivered by sometimes next year. A couple of those have probably been used for the J-10B program while a good number of them will be used as spare engines for J-10s. An estimate of 250 J-10A and J-10S by the end of J-10A production run does not seem too crazy.* The question of power plant for J-10 is kind of puzzling. It seems like the first batch of J-10B will also be using the base version of AL-31FN. While I do expect J-10B to eventually use WS-10A, it doesn't seem like that will be the case yet*. At the same time, if PLAAF does place another order for AL-31FN, I think it would be quite disappointing if it will not be for a higher thrusted version.

At this point, the J-10B project has already been flying for close to 4 years. I had expected to already see the first batch of J-10B to come out by now, but it looks like we will have to wait until next year for that. It does seem like CAC has lost some of its shine recently to the number of new aircraft showing up at SAC. There could be many reasons for the amount of time they have been testing out the J-10B project. A lot of resources are used up for the J-20 projects while production for J-10A remains quite strong. But in the end, I think the change from J-10A to J-10B is quite a large change. CAC is testing out a lot of new technologies that will also be used for other projects. 

CANP

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## sancho

IceCold said:


> Does it really matter when we wont be getting it anytime soon and by the time we do, *it really will not make much of a difference in terms of technically capability*.



That's the point, do we know that it won't make much difference? I was a fan of the J10 as a plattform for a long time and had high expectations about the B version. The mix between cost-effectiveness and capability would be way more deadly and difficult to counter for IAF, than all the Flanker versions in PLAAF.

From PAFs point this is even more crucial, because if the capability is broadly similar to JF 17, there is no use to buy it and add another type of fighter in the short to mid term. 
However, if J10B turns out to be a really capable fighter and a 5 th gen fighter is not in sight for PAF within a decade or so, a J10B / JF17 mix would form a very capable hi / lo combo that could be procured in good numbers.

But from what I have seen and heared so far, I am rather disappointed, because I had expected more by now. No CFTs or increased internal fuel tanks, which still limits the payload since 2 wetstations are occupied. PESA radar would be more than a disappointment, it is not clear if the TWR could be improved compared to J10A, or if the weight is still an issue, if they order Russian engines again, it would be a downer too...

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## fatman17

*AVIC and IAI look to extend industrial collaboration*


Jon Grevatt, Bangkok


2012-Oct-12


Senior management from the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) and Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) discussed extending industrial collaboration activities during talks held in Beijing on 10 October, the Chinese state-owned company said.
The talks were led by AVIC President Lin Zuoming and IAI President and Chief Executive Officer Joseph Weiss and also included senior officials from AVIC subsidiary Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation. The statement said AVIC and IAI are looking at enhancing previous and existing industrial links but did not go into detail.

Industrial collaboration between AVIC and IAI is well established, although co-operation in military aerospace is kept low key due, in part, to US concerns about the relationship. Israel remains a major recipient of US military funds.

AVIC-IAI partnerships in commercial aerospace sector include co-operation over the co-production of IAI-designed business jets in China. In the defence sector programmes include collaboration in the Chinese programme to develop and build the Chengdu J-10 multirole fighter.

The J-10 was introduced into service in 2005 following nearly two decades of development. During this process AVIC is thought to have benefitted from several contemporaneous international fighter development projects, one of which was the IAI Lavi combat aircraft.

it was reported in 2008 that Russian aerospace engineers with first-hand experience on Chinese military projects confirmed that AVIC and IAI undertook extensive co-operation on the J-10 programme. These activities included AVIC's access to the Lavi prototype aircraft, the development of which was discontinued by Israel in the late 1980s

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## Storm Force

I think the PAF feel the additional cost of $2 billion + to aqcuire a chinease MMRCA is not worhwhile.

THEY probablly feel the lighter JFT carries the SAME weapons as the FC20 MMRCA and may feel it does not offer anything duifferent in weapons or radar that cant be used eventually on JFT .

the only major difference is FC20 will carry bigger load over longer ranges.

IDEALLY PAF would like their MMRCA like india,s to be western in origin with western weapons and radars to give the variety.

THIS IS WHY i believe the PAF maybe shying away from FC20

JUST MY GUT FEELING


----------



## Fieldmarshal

that should/is the way to go.

PAF needs to move directly to a fifth gen. Chinese platform/ac. and there are plenty of such Chinese projects in different stages of their development. and my understanding is that PAF has had a very close/inside look at multiple no. such projects.

But having said that PAF will still induct 36-40 J-10B very soon as the performance they offer is right now and before the induction of rafael into iaf. by the time iaf has inducted the rafael in nos. PAF would be induction a fifth gen platform.

Baki ALLAH knows best.


----------



## Storm Force

So according you to you Field Marshall.

PAF will induct 36 J10 /FC20 before IAF inducts RAFALE even though their is no offical news that GOP has signed for such a fighter before 2014-2015

AND THE BEST of your comment

DESPITE IAF being offical partner of he Russian FGFA programme PAF will induct a 5th gen chinease fighter before India.

INTERSTING


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## TaimiKhan

Storm Force said:


> So according you to you Field Marshall.
> 
> PAF will induct 36 J10 /FC20 before IAF inducts RAFALE even though their is no offical news that GOP has signed for such a fighter before 2014-2015
> 
> AND THE BEST of your comment
> 
> DESPITE IAF being offical partner of he Russian FGFA programme PAF will induct a 5th gen chinease fighter before India.
> 
> INTERSTING



Before you come up with another utter BS post, do research about what kind of 5th gen programs happening in China and with what speed and then compare it with your own Indo-Russo program, may be if you think like a sane person and not as an Indian, you might learn that Chinese 5th gen fighter may become operational much soon before the Indo-Russo one.

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## farhan_9909

Storm Force said:


> So according you to you Field Marshall.
> 
> PAF will induct 36 J10 /FC20 before IAF inducts RAFALE even though their is no offical news that GOP has signed for such a fighter before 2014-2015
> 
> AND THE BEST of your comment
> 
> * DESPITE IAF being offical partner of he Russian FGFA programme PAF will induct a 5th gen chinease figh*ter before India.
> 
> INTERSTING



This is the difference b/w pak and India

let suppose

if india says we will induct f-22 in 2020.than they will actually take 6-7 years more to induct that before which they have announced in 2012

If Pak want to induct f-22.PAF will remain silent till 2020-22 and than will announce we will induct f-22 in 2025 when everything is signed.may be few months ups and down


Same case here.PAK as usuall will surprise you. be the babur cruise missile(nirbhey announced from the past decade)
and no one knew about pak cruise missile program untill it was tested

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## KRAIT

^F-22 in PAF.....or J-20/J-31. 
May be discussion should still be on J-10B which is still in hanging with uncertainty. Pakistan has openly showed buying these A/Cs on soft loans that means no surprise, surprise is that the interest on soft loan can't be paid by Pakistan as told by very senior Pakistani poster.

So point is rather speculating, one should talk reality. And if this is going to be a surprise then what is the point of this thread.


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## Kloitra

TaimiKhan said:


> Before you come up with another utter BS post, do research about what kind of 5th gen programs happening in China and with what speed and then compare it with your own Indo-Russo program, may be if you think like a sane person and not as an Indian, you might learn that Chinese 5th gen fighter may become operational much soon before the Indo-Russo one.



Lets say, J-20 starts to be inducted in Chinese air force by 2015. There manufacturing capacity be 30 per year. so by 2020, they would still have less than 180 birds. That is the time, which all sanity dictates IAF will get atleast firsts of their 5 gen. Do you think China would start exporting before fulfilling their own requirements? I dont see PAF getting 5 gen sooner than IAF, thinking not even as an Indian!

Also, current economic condition of Pakistan doesnt suggest PAF to be getting a twin engine, let alone a twin engine 5 gen anytime soon.

I cant help but consider your post to be rant than actually a counter-argument, considering your standing - senior moderator.


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## TaimiKhan

Kloitra said:


> Lets say, J-20 starts to be inducted in Chinese air force by 2015. There manufacturing capacity be 30 per year. so by 2020, they would still have less than 180 birds. That is the time, which all sanity dictates IAF will get atleast firsts of their 5 gen. Do you think China would start exporting before fulfilling their own requirements? I dont see PAF getting 5 gen sooner than IAF, thinking not even as an Indian!
> 
> Also, current economic condition of Pakistan doesnt suggest PAF to be getting a twin engine, let alone a twin engine 5 gen anytime soon.
> 
> I cant help but consider your post to be rant than actually a counter-argument, considering your standing - senior moderator.



Well before considering my argument to be a rant, why don't you first consider your argument to be a rant as you brought in J-20 and its induction theory which i never mentioned nor did i said PAF is going to get J-20. So consider your argument to be a rant out of frustration rather then trying to show me how smart arse you consider yourself to be. Next time be careful before you utter your BS nonsense. 

I never said PAF is going to have J-20 in service, nor it will have it. I just said look at how much 5th gen programs Chinese have and their progress and then look at what Russians are doing and with the history of Russian equipment delays and the recent down numbering the order of Indian 5th gen fighter, we can clearly see where the program and its induction timeline will reach. This is what your countrymen at top defence helms have to say:

"Defence Minister A K Antony has been saying the FGFA would join the Indian Air Force by 2017. On Monday, his deputy, M M Pallam Raju, told Parliament, &#8220;The fifth generation aircraft is scheduled to be certified by 2019, following which the series production will start.&#8221;"

Delays and challenges for Indo-Russian fighter

And these are all at best for now scheduled guess, the same as LCA, Arjun, that mighty invincible naval carrier etc etc etc. 

PAF will get 5th gen around the same time as IAF gets, and when will IAF get is which we all know well. 

So it seemed you thought your post just like an Indian and not as a sane member with some logical sense. 

So no more diarrhea like in your post above or you will regret this time.

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## jahidus2005

pakistan need to give bangladesh his 4+ genration aircraft to bangladesh , so bd military can stop myanmar from killing all these muslim innocent in rakhaine state


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## Storm Force

Lets have reality check.

The most advanced fifth gen project in CHINA is the J20 a massive twin engined fighter. At best this will enter service about the time the indo russian fighters enter service.

All of you HAVE intimated PAF cannot afford and does not have an operational doctrine for a massive twin engined fighter which means a J20 in PAF is a non starter.

I would argue even further and suggest this top secret fighter is not available to any nation 

THIS LEAVES CHINA so called other fifth projects including singler seaters. THERE has been no flights seen and no real tech demonstrators seen THIS MEANS if there are serious 2nd or 3rd fifth gen fighter projects in china THEY are way in the infancy stage no where near the stage of FGFA or indeed J20 which is china,s first attempt.

ON this basis i think PAF receving any 5th gen fighters before FGFA is as stated just not possible.

AND to really demobstrate this THIS J10 FC20 induction has been talked about by pakistanis since 2007. Five years later despite over 200 J10s flying in PLAAF we have no real offical confirmation of PAF PRESPECTIVE purchase. 

I have suggested this before and am not ashamed of this but there are certain types of military hardware that are JUST NOT realistically affordable to buy or operate by certain countries who have massive financial constraints. THIS hardware includes nuclear subs aircraft carriers and YES fifth gen fighters. 

HENCE i have dared to suggest that fact.... I assure its not a rant or attempt to derail the topic 

just economic reality


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## Pak47

Self delete.. In nice mood today.


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## ababeel22

man has a point, may be he exaggerated the economic constraints lil bit, but still a valid point


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## TAC

Storm Force said:


> Lets have reality check.
> 
> The most advanced fifth gen project in CHINA is the J20 a massive twin engined fighter. At best this will enter service about the time the indo russian fighters enter service.
> 
> All of you HAVE intimated PAF cannot afford and does not have an operational doctrine for a massive twin engined fighter which means a J20 in PAF is a non starter.
> 
> I would argue even further and suggest this top secret fighter is not available to any nation
> 
> THIS LEAVES CHINA so called other fifth projects including singler seaters. THERE has been no flights seen and no real tech demonstrators seen THIS MEANS if there are serious 2nd or 3rd fifth gen fighter projects in china THEY are way in the infancy stage no where near the stage of FGFA or indeed J20 which is china,s first attempt.
> 
> ON this basis i think PAF receving any 5th gen fighters before FGFA is as stated just not possible.
> 
> AND to really demobstrate this THIS J10 FC20 induction has been talked about by pakistanis since 2007. Five years later despite over 200 J10s flying in PLAAF we have no real offical confirmation of PAF PRESPECTIVE purchase.
> 
> I have suggested this before and am not ashamed of this but there are certain types of military hardware that are JUST NOT realistically affordable to buy or operate by certain countries who have massive financial constraints. THIS hardware includes nuclear subs aircraft carriers and YES fifth gen fighters.
> 
> HENCE i have dared to suggest that fact.... I assure its not a rant or attempt to derail the topic
> 
> just economic reality



For aircraft carriers - your point is valid, for nuclear subs not nearly as valid and for 5th gen fighters totaly invalid. 5th gen fighters are surely expensive but to have the capability you do not need to match fighter numbers - a squadron or two will do just fine. Despite financial contraints you can be sure that Pakistan will get that as a minimum- in the same way they got AWACS, refuelers, misiles, nuclear weapons etc etc despite all the same financial constraints you dwell on.

With regard to where the 5th gen fighter will come from -- one word - China (and with nice easy credit terms too). Read up on the J-31/F60 - You will see that independant observers agree that first flight is immenant and this aircraft is likely export orientated. Whether PAF gets it or something like it before or after PAKFA enters service with IAF is irelevant. However I would suggest you read up on the already significant delays to PAKFA induction thanks to Indias insistance on its own input into the type.

With regard to FC-20 / J-10 induction into PAF --- former ACM is on record as stating 36 / 40 FC-20 in PAF by 2016 -- thats 4 years away -- and as you will be well aware such inductions/plans easily slip by a few years - just look at all the massive delays in IAF inductions. So don't worry - the type is coming from a close ally only too keen to offer it with cheap credit - it will come as and when it is ready and PAF is ready for it.

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## Kloitra

Nice Taimi, I admit you are a great debater.

PS: You still fail to justify your reply to storm force. Feel free to decline to reply though.


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## abdulbarijan

Storm Force said:


> Lets have reality check.
> 
> The most advanced fifth gen project in CHINA is the J20 a massive twin engined fighter. At best this will enter service about the time the indo russian fighters enter service.
> 
> All of you HAVE intimated PAF cannot afford and does not have an operational doctrine for a massive twin engined fighter which means a J20 in PAF is a non starter.
> 
> I would argue even further and suggest this top secret fighter is not available to any nation
> 
> THIS LEAVES CHINA so called other fifth projects including singler seaters. THERE has been no flights seen and no real tech demonstrators seen THIS MEANS if there are serious 2nd or 3rd fifth gen fighter projects in china THEY are way in the infancy stage no where near the stage of FGFA or indeed J20 which is china,s first attempt.
> 
> ON this basis i think PAF receving any 5th gen fighters before FGFA is as stated just not possible.
> 
> AND to really demobstrate this THIS J10 FC20 induction has been talked about by pakistanis since 2007. Five years later despite over 200 J10s flying in PLAAF we have no real offical confirmation of PAF PRESPECTIVE purchase.
> 
> I have suggested this before and am not ashamed of this but there are certain types of military hardware that are JUST NOT realistically affordable to buy or operate by certain countries who have massive financial constraints. THIS hardware includes nuclear subs aircraft carriers and YES fifth gen fighters.
> 
> HENCE i have dared to suggest that fact.... I assure its not a rant or attempt to derail the topic
> 
> just economic reality



Long time no see .... I see Stormy man hasn't changed ... 
Anyways I'm sorry but I have to ask such personal question however seeing your views just made me a little curious... 

-*What degree do you hold in economics that you are able to forecast Pakistan's economic situation 8-9 years away ( "Scheduled" 5th generation induction by IAF ) while leading world economists fail to correctly predict the future precisely and end up just giving rough estimates* ....

-Secondly just consider the economic boom that Pakistan had in the early 2000's 






-As for the twin engined doctrine ... *PAF was operating a twin engined A-5 if I remember correctly*, its not about twin or single engined, Its about what PAF thinks it NEEDS.*IF PAF thinks it needs a stealthy fighter to stay in the game then you will see a drastic change in plans to accommodate that need, as PAK-FA induction is ten folds more threatening then the MMRCA contract for IAF, As many have suggested you might even see a sudden skip of half a generation straight on to the big prize .... *

-For the J-10 induction, LCA induction was talked about since the 90's so what went wrong .. 

And lastly please show us again your pure knowledge on economics suggesting that Indian economy will grow at the same pace and will not be effected in the future, for all we know anything can happen in 8-9 years.... *Its always about IF's and BUTS's in the matter of future considerations .... *

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## SBD-3

jahidus2005 said:


> pakistan need to give bangladesh his 4+ genration aircraft to bangladesh , so bd military can stop myanmar from killing all these muslim innocent in rakhaine state


Quite a statement given the fact that BD closed its borders for rakhaine muslims seeking refuge in BD....

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## graphican

Kloitra said:


> Nice Taimi, I admit you are a great debater.
> 
> PS: You still fail to justify your reply to storm force. Feel free to decline to reply though.



Storm Force has a thinking pattern which is partly biased and partly ill-informed. He shows up every time you hear something good about JFT or FC20 and tries to bring his "economy", "no-news-since-long" and "not-confirmed-deals" theories. His posts have an element of intention more but they are poor at substance. Unlike India, Pakistan or China do not disclose their deals, procurement or plans unless they are already a reality. FC20 deal is not finalized but I fail to understand why do Chinese release FC20 details and technical images when they already have J10, J10A and J10Bs running and flying. A blind man needs to "see" something before understanding it fully but "blind at mind" cannot "see" even when things are visible to him. 

Regarding J-20, Pakistan has requirements of single engined stealth fighter.. so even if J-20 was offered and we had all the money which it needed, it wasn't the "toy" Pakistan wanted. Pakistan and China has signed MOU (and probebly a lot more than just MOUs) to prepare single engine stealth fighters but as I mentioned, "blinds cannot see" and would argue everytime every where they had a chance.

And finally, you talk with people and reply to people who you think have chances of understanding. That concludes my whole point of discussion.

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## Kloitra

graphican said:


> Storm Force has a thinking pattern which is partly biased and partly ill-informed. He shows up every time you hear something good about JFT or FC20 and tries to bring his "economy", "no-news-since-long" and "not-confirmed-deals" theories. His posts have an element of intention more but they are poor at substance. Unlike India, Pakistan or China do not disclose their deals, procurement or plans unless they are already a reality. FC20 deal is not finalized but I fail to understand why do Chinese release FC20 details and technical images when they already have J10, J10A and J10Bs running and flying. A blind man needs to "see" something before understanding it fully but "blind at mind" cannot "see" even when things are visible to him.
> 
> Regarding J-20, Pakistan has requirements of single engined stealth fighter.. so even if J-20 was offered and we had all the money which it needed, it wasn't the "toy" Pakistan wanted. Pakistan and China has signed MOU (and probebly a lot more than just MOUs) to prepare single engine stealth fighters but as I mentioned, "blinds cannot see" and would argue everytime every where they had a chance.
> 
> And finally, you talk with people and reply to people who you think have chances of understanding. That concludes my whole point of discussion.



I would not have bothered to reply, let alone try to have a discussion if Taimi's reply had some 'substance', which is expected from a senior moderator.

I didn't even comment regarding FC20. My only contention was regarding J20, a mod supporting the view of having J20 in PAF - this theory needs to be have some explicit support. Then again, you see him replying me subjectively, without any tangible matter.

PAF getting some single engine stealth, I don't know and I have no comment. Had that been a point, I would read and walk away. But if you say before IAF, than that needs justification.


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## Storm Force

LETS KEEP THE DEBATE civilised and leave the personal attacks guys.

For PAF they are not party to or involved in any fifth generation project with China. The chinease themselves are a very secretive race especially weary of their latest technology finding its way to USA. With Pakistan in some quarters stil a USA ally some chinease may consider selling J20/J31 to be a national risk.. Cerainly cant see this arriving in Pakistan in the 2020 timeframe.

As for FC20 which this topic covers i have said before the main reason PAF have not already signed for 40 J10/FC20 is they have reservations 

1. THE FC20 will cost by pakistani standrards BIG money and for the last 5 years pakistan has struggled severly in terms of finance.

2. FC20/J10 at this is not offering the new range of weapons and radar that cannot be acquired already or soon on the JFT. Its pointless having 2 platforms offering identical radars & weapons.

3. Some PAF top brass feel the best MMRCA is stil more F16s esp block 52S with it massive range of multi role weapons . 

Some Pakistanis feel if they can make USA/PAK relations better they should spernd the limited funds on more F16s

4. Some feel PAF is awaiting for MMRCA to be finalised and signed before showing their response bEFORE signing for FC20 
AS THEIR RESPONSE........

the truth is nobody knows for sure we are speculating


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## TaimiKhan

Kloitra said:


> I would not have bothered to reply, let alone try to have a discussion if Taimi's reply had some 'substance', which is expected from a senior moderator.
> 
> I didn't even comment regarding FC20. My only contention was regarding J20, a mod supporting the view of having J20 in PAF - this theory needs to be have some explicit support. Then again, you see him replying me subjectively, without any tangible matter.
> 
> PAF getting some single engine stealth, I don't know and I have no comment. Had that been a point, I would read and walk away. But if you say before IAF, than that needs justification.



U have joined in Sept 2012, while i am here since a long time/ If you can properly read, then re-read my last 2-3 posts, i explicitly mentioned J-20 is not the aircraft we want or have in mind. 

PAF first requirement is a single engine stealth platform, and i have mentioned this many times, but if a single engine platform is not feasible, then may be something on the basis of J-31. J-20 is not what we want or have desire for. 

Hope i am clear this time.

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## Kloitra

TaimiKhan said:


> U have joined in Sept 2012, while i am here since a long time/



I do admit I am not as knowledgeable as you are, but this has anything to do with our joining date.



> If you can properly read, then re-read my last 2-3 posts, i explicitly mentioned J-20 is not the aircraft we want or have in mind.
> 
> PAF first requirement is a single engine stealth platform, and i have mentioned this many times, but if a single engine platform is not feasible, then may be something on the basis of J-31. J-20 is not what we want or have desire for.
> 
> Hope i am clear this time.



From your reply to me and storm force, I had assumed/misunderstood that you are saying otherwise. You are not, so I have no further arguments.

Peace.


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## fatman17

*AVIC of China launches aero engine development roadmap*

Author:Jon Grevatt

Last posted:2012-Oct-30



The Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) has announced the introduction of a technology roadmap to accelerate the development of advanced aero engines for military/commercial applications.

A statement by the state-owned group on 29 October said the roadmap will be implemented by one of its major aero engine subsidiaries, the Liming Aero-Engine Manufacturing Corporation (LMAC) in Shenyang, and will encompass a range of activities intended to bolster existing development programs.

AVIC said the roadmap will include an outline of a "hierarchical classification" of required technologies and plans to enhance independent research and development, testing and evaluation, system integration, and manufacturing, as well as technical development and training for LMAC personnel. AVIC added that LMAC will be tasked with "enhancing technical capacity to carry out solid technical foundation, to seek technical breakthroughs in key technologies, and to [address] bottlenecks".

The aero engine technology roadmap is one of several activities that AVIC has introduced in recent years intended to address what is regarded as one of its key industrial shortcomings. These activities - which are geared primarily towards improving research and development - are supported by a continuing industrial consolidation process and expansive financial resources.

AVIC said in 2010 that it would spend at least USD300 million a year on aero-engine development programs and the corporation is also reportedly seeking additional funding from the central Chinese government to support these efforts further.

Over the past decade or more LMAC has spearheaded China's program to develop the WS-10 and WS-13 jet engines. Success, however, has been limited and most major Chinese military aircraft continue to use Russian or Ukrainian systems.

In the commercial aerospace sector too, success is yet to be evidenced. For instance, the engine to power China's flagship C919commercial jet airliner, which is expected to make its first flight in 2014, will be provided by CFM International: a joint venture between GE Aviation and Safran. CFM signed a deal to provide engines based on its LEAP power plant under a contract signed in December 2009.

DW

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## bhedgehog

Is there any further news on the 40 J10 export we were discussing?


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## trident2010

fatman17 said:


> Over the past decade or more LMAC has spearheaded China's program to develop the WS-10 and WS-13 jet engines. Success, however, has been limited and most major Chinese military aircraft continue to use Russian or Ukrainian systems.
> 
> DW



I think developing a reliable, world class fighter engine is proving to be an Achilles' heel for both India and China. China's efforts should be lauded that they are doing it without much help from outside. Why India is not able to produce a good engine despite all the help they can get from outside, reflects bad management within the organisations.

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## PakShaheen79

bhedgehog said:


> Is there any further news on the 40 J10 export we were discussing?



I think it's all nothing but speculations. In 2006, then PM just hinted in National Assembly that Pakistan would acquire some 36 J-10 but after that there is nothing on that from PAF or MoD. So, right now, it is nothing but speculations.


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## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think it's all nothing but speculations. In 2006, then PM just hinted in National Assembly that Pakistan would acquire some 36 J-10 but after that there is nothing on that from PAF or MoD. So, right now, it is nothing but speculations.



Nothing has been inked yet.
Most probably we are all waiting for the Chinese Engine and the results of JF-17 Blk-II!!
If PAF gets an improved radar and a better engine, as suggested that they may well be looking for it, then we might not even see the J-10. The weapons JF-17 BLK-II (considering a better more powerful engine is acquired) can or will be able to carry along side a better radar will fill in the gap of J-10. If this happen, the next new platform that we see in PAF colors may well be a generation leap!

JUST SPECULATING
Only thing for sure is that *THE J-10 DEAL HAVEN'T BEEN INKED YET AND WE ARE MOST PROBABLY WAITING FOR CHINESE ENGINE *

regards!


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## MastanKhan

trident2010 said:


> I think developing a reliable, world class fighter engine is proving to be an Achilles' heel for both India and China. China's efforts should be lauded that they are doing it without much help from outside. Why India is not able to produce a good engine despite all the help they can get from outside, reflects bad management within the organisations.




Hi,

No---it does not----it just tells you how difficult a task manufacturing a fighter jet engine is ---the problems is that you cannot reverse engineer it just like that---you cannot steal the technology because you would never know if the information has been sabotaged or not------.


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## 帅的一匹

WS15 wih 16.3 tons of thrust is undergoing ground test, no need to worry about. I am so proud of my country.

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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> Nothing has been inked yet.
> Most probably we are all waiting for the Chinese Engine and the results of JF-17 Blk-II!!
> If PAF gets an improved radar and a better engine, as suggested that they may well be looking for it, then we might not even see the J-10. The weapons JF-17 BLK-II (considering a better more powerful engine is acquired) can or will be able to carry along side a better radar will fill in the gap of J-10. If this happen, the next new platform that we see in PAF colors may well be a generation leap!
> 
> JUST SPECULATING
> Only thing for sure is that *THE J-10 DEAL HAVEN'T BEEN INKED YET AND WE ARE MOST PROBABLY WAITING FOR CHINESE ENGINE *
> 
> regards!



its the only way we will get J-10B/FC-20.



bhedgehog said:


> Is there any further news on the 40 J10 export we were discussing?



nope-dead end until chinese engine is evaluated and accepted by PAF. once this event happens, then PAF will not order 40 but at least 100. why not?


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## Dazzler

customized j-10, dual seat with new bubble canopy unlike j-10S, AESA radar, EW housing on vertical tail, no DSI, IFR installed, new avionics and IRST, WS-10 is quite visible.

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## DANGER-ZONE

nabil_05 said:


> customized j-10, dual seat with new bubble canopy unlike j-10S, AESA radar, EW housing on vertical tail, no DSI, IFR installed, new avionics and IRST, WS-10 is quite visible.



ahhh ... But that Just a MODEL  and have seen this picture before. 
From now on i wont be believing any rumour regarding J-10 unless some picture comes out or official contract is signed. 
and one interesting thing, i really took your words

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## mylovepakistan

lo jee...nabil bhai ne aik naye dilemma main daal dya...


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## bhedgehog

Arsalan said:


> Nothing has been inked yet.
> Most probably we are all waiting for the Chinese Engine and the results of JF-17 Blk-II!!
> If PAF gets an improved radar and a better engine, as suggested that they may well be looking for it, then we might not even see the J-10. The weapons JF-17 BLK-II (considering a better more powerful engine is acquired) can or will be able to carry along side a better radar will fill in the gap of J-10. If this happen, the next new platform that we see in PAF colors may well be a generation leap!
> 
> JUST SPECULATING
> Only thing for sure is that *THE J-10 DEAL HAVEN'T BEEN INKED YET AND WE ARE MOST PROBABLY WAITING FOR CHINESE ENGINE *
> 
> regards!



J10-B equipped with Chinese engine and DSI has been under test flight for quite a while, but no j10A with Chinese engine has been spotted yet. 

Maybe PAF is waiting for J10-B, which is reasonable because the DSI of J10-B is more suitable for a multi-role combat aircraft.....



fatman17 said:


> its the only way we will get J-10B/FC-20.
> 
> 
> 
> nope-dead end until chinese engine is evaluated and accepted by PAF. once this event happens, then PAF will not order 40 but at least 100. why not?



Why 100. I thought it might be a good idea to get 40 first and then wait for J-31


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## bhedgehog

nabil_05 said:


> customized j-10, dual seat with new bubble canopy unlike j-10S, AESA radar, EW housing on vertical tail, no DSI, IFR installed, new avionics and IRST, WS-10 is quite visible.



Have not seen such a aircraft under-test yet... 
But wait ....., there are several yellow-skin J-10 without DSI under test in Chengdu right now.... Next time we might want to pay attention to what engines they are equipped with.


At least in the following video from early 2012, all the no-DSI j-10 are equipped with Russian engines. Only the j10B has Chinese engine......


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## 帅的一匹

J10a's airframe is modified to contain AL31f, while WS10A is the one for J10B. CAC should set up another WS10A production line ASAP, the tech should be transferred to PAF for more production volume.


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## khanasifm

1. Dubai Airshow , Show news by AW&ST ,* PAF spokes person claimed its a J-10b as he stated its with bump intake. *

ShowNews - Latest News from Onsite at Major Aviation, Aerospace & Defense Events

unfortunately Dubai news is no longer posted or available at the site.

I had posted the link in the forums. What it going to be , who knows.

JF-17 min. order commitment is 150.I think J-10 will come after 150 JF-17 are acquired to replace all f7Ps, A5 (5+2 sqdns) and may be one additional Mirage sqdn.


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## Luftwaffe

khanasifm said:


> 1. Dubai Airshow , Show news by AW&ST, PAF spokes person claimed its a J-10b as he stated its with bump intake.
> 
> JF-17 min. order commitment is 150.I think J-10 will come after 150 JF-17 are acquired to replace all f7Ps, A5 (5+2 sqdns) and may be one additional Mirage sqdn.



All A-5 Fantans are retired and in storage. J-10B will only come when PAF is satisfied with Chinese Engine.

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## Dazzler

danger-zone said:


> ahhh ... But that Just a MODEL  and have seen this picture before.
> From now on i wont be believing any rumour regarding J-10 unless some picture comes out or official contract is signed.
> and one interesting thing, i really took your words



Was I the only one to believe that the J-10B is FC-20? If that was the case, singling out my post would have made sense. Now search for all those posts that followed suit, including Pakdef forum.


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## graphican

nabil_05 said:


> Was I the only one to believe that the J-10B is FC-20? If that was the case, singling out my post would have made sense. Now search for all those posts that followed suit, including Pakdef forum.



Sorry for loosing track of this discussion. Do you (as per your provided info) still believe that its going to be j-10B or has that insider information proven untrue and now you believe its going to be J-10A?


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## abdulbarijan

graphican said:


> Sorry for loosing track of this discussion. Do you (as per your provided info) still believe that its going to be j-10B or has that insider information proven untrue and now you believe its going to be J-10A?



Well I know respected sir the question wasn't directed at me... but lets settle this issue once and for all

*Will PAF receive :-*

*J-10 A*
Lets look at the capabilities it gives over the traditional JF-17, not much in terms of technology, in terms of deep strike and being a high altitude platform it does do alot better

So lets ask our selves, will PAF invest millions in to get an entirely new platform with similar capabilities and just some advantages that we can get in the shape of more F-16's,if we buy them through parties other than USA, even though it will take USA's consent to get through the purchase but if PAF really needed just the main two advantages J-10A brings to the field i feel they would definitely go for a tested tried platform such as the F-16..

So J-10 A is a NO-NO for PAF 

* J-10B *
Good platform which gives us a half a generation leap over JF-17 and a leap over the block 52, sounds like the thing most officials and insiders have been mentioning when they have said Block 52 wont be the best fighter in PAF's fleet for long...

But the other side is the finances... can we really go and use something like that which may be excellent for its given price, but its price might be a hike .... it seems that way when we look in to the current economic issues we are facing
Again a J-10 B might be a No-NO while talking the economy

*Customized J-10 A*

A customized J-10A with good changes such as dual seats, AESA radar, good EW suite etc which change the J-10A to B minus the structural changes *may be the viable solution for us*, as we will be cutting expenses and receiving nearly half a generation leap over what we field today...
As i remember *huitong also said that we might see a customized J-10A in PAF's ranks* ... 
*
dont forget J-10 as it is, is one hell of a fighting machine having kills over the best china fields today in its operational airforce (j-11, SU-30 MKK) 
*
I hope i made a contribution .

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## Thorough Pro

J-10B is a dead horse now and for a good reason. Enuff said.


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## bhedgehog

abdulbarijan said:


> Well I know respected sir the question wasn't directed at me... but lets settle this issue once and for all
> 
> *Will PAF receive :-*
> 
> *J-10 A*
> Lets look at the capabilities it gives over the traditional JF-17, not much in terms of technology, in terms of deep strike and being a high altitude platform it does do alot better
> 
> So lets ask our selves, will PAF invest millions in to get an entirely new platform with similar capabilities and just some advantages that we can get in the shape of more F-16's,if we buy them through parties other than USA, even though it will take USA's consent to get through the purchase but if PAF really needed just the main two advantages J-10A brings to the field i feel they would definitely go for a tested tried platform such as the F-16..
> 
> So J-10 A is a NO-NO for PAF
> 
> * J-10B *
> Good platform which gives us a half a generation leap over JF-17 and a leap over the block 52, sounds like the thing most officials and insiders have been mentioning when they have said Block 52 wont be the best fighter in PAF's fleet for long...
> 
> But the other side is the finances... can we really go and use something like that which may be excellent for its given price, but its price might be a hike .... it seems that way when we look in to the current economic issues we are facing
> Again a J-10 B might be a No-NO while talking the economy
> 
> *Customized J-10 A*
> 
> A customized J-10A with good changes such as dual seats, AESA radar, good EW suite etc which change the J-10A to B minus the structural changes *may be the viable solution for us*, as we will be cutting expenses and receiving nearly half a generation leap over what we field today...
> As i remember *huitong also said that we might see a customized J-10A in PAF's ranks* ...
> *
> dont forget J-10 as it is, is one hell of a fighting machine having kills over the best china fields today in its operational airforce (j-11, SU-30 MKK)
> *
> I hope i made a contribution .



If you believe that what PAF is going to get are the fighters with Chinese Engine, then it is gonna be J-10B. Cos no J-10A or modified J-10A using Chinese Engine has been spotted.


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## trident2010

abdulbarijan said:


> *
> dont forget J-10 as it is, is one hell of a fighting machine having kills over the best china fields today in its operational airforce (j-11, SU-30 MKK)
> *
> I hope i made a contribution .



Its difficult to validate that J-10 can compete with J-11 / Su-30 MKK based on the information by Chinese sources. They want to export the J-10 and therefore obviously there will always be salt and pepper regarding the results outcomes. Otherwise PAF would have definitely fielded 40-50 J-10A as a stop gap until something better comes up.


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## TAC

Former PAF ACM is on record as saying that J-10 is a great potential platform for the PAF, that Pakistan has requested China to make various 'Improvements' to it before PAF will induct it, that AESA is a key requirement for the type------- then in a different interview he stated that Pakistans 'contract' with China for tha J-10 was 'intact' and China was making required improvements to the J-10 before acuisition by the PAF.

Now - if anyone knows of any other versions of the J-10 flying around with AESA and other 'improvements' - I'm all ears -- until then - my money is still on J-10B = FC-20. Also note that the J-10B is the only version of the J-10 known to be flying with a Chinese engine - I believe thats because its destined for export and needs a domestic powerplant.

For those who are writing off the FC-20 acuisition -- the ACM stated 40 of the type by 2016 and these things are usualy delayed by a couple of years - so hardly time to throw in the towel just yet.

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## abdulbarijan

trident2010 said:


> Its difficult to validate that J-10 can compete with J-11 / Su-30 MKK based on the information by Chinese sources. They want to export the J-10 and therefore obviously there will always be salt and pepper regarding the results outcomes. Otherwise PAF would have definitely fielded 40-50 J-10A as a stop gap until something better comes up.



Now i know this is a fact when it comes to export planes, however thats all we'v got, so its the situation where Pakistanis like me will take it as authentic and indians will leave it...
plus I remember many of our indian friends saying the same about the "stealth projects" and cracking jokes like there is no stealth project of China etc only to get a huge wake up call with the appearance of the Mighty dragon...
Like i said in my first response, J-10A will offer capabilities in the region of block 52 at best and what we need is something better than that keeping in view the latest Indian acquisitions like the rafales and super sukhois



bhedgehog said:


> If you believe that what PAF is going to get are the fighters with Chinese Engine, then it is gonna be J-10B. Cos no J-10A or modified J-10A using Chinese Engine has been spotted.


It all depends on what PAF wants...u are totally right on what u point out but I dont think structural changes for J-10A to fit a chinese engine would be on a level that would need alot of time ... that is assuming PAF wants a chinese engine in the first place, we are running out of time as it...


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## MastanKhan

TAC said:


> Former PAF ACM is on record as saying that J-10 is a great potential platform for the PAF, that Pakistan has requested China to make various 'Improvements' to it before PAF will induct it, that AESA is a key requirement for the type------- then in a different interview he stated that Pakistans 'contract' with China for tha J-10 was 'intact' and China was making required improvements to the J-10 before acuisition by the PAF.
> 
> Now - if anyone knows of any other versions of the J-10 flying around with AESA and other 'improvements' - I'm all ears -- until then - my money is still on J-10B = FC-20. Also note that the J-10B is the only version of the J-10 known to be flying with a Chinese engine - I believe thats because its destined for export and needs a domestic powerplant.
> 
> For those who are writing off the FC-20 acuisition -- the ACM stated 40 of the type by 2016 and these things are usualy delayed by a couple of years - so hardly time to throw in the towel just yet.



Hi,

Please don't trust the previous ACM's of pakistan air force---most of them have decieved pakistan---they have been criminally negligent of doing their job---including the current and the past ACM's----.

You pakistani children are just learning that your pilots cannot simply jump into the cockpit of aircraft and fly circles around the enemy---your air force has lost the best oppurtunities it had to get the aircraft of choice---your air force decieved the french and the swedes and got bitten so hard in return that it is not even funny---.

My boy---our air force is so pathetic that during time of war---it could not protect it most expensive assets---. Just like in the 71 war---the RB57 was destroyed on the tarmac---likewise---P3 c destroyed in karachi---other assets destroyed at kamra---.

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## 帅的一匹

self delete


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## 帅的一匹

bhedgehog said:


> If you believe that what PAF is going to get are the fighters with Chinese Engine, then it is gonna be J-10B. Cos no J-10A or modified J-10A using Chinese Engine has been spotted.


FYI, J10A with WS-10A engine.





FC-20 is really a secret.


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## TAC

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Please don't trust the previous ACM's of pakistan air force---most of them have decieved pakistan---they have been criminally negligent of doing their job---including the current and the past ACM's----.
> 
> You pakistani children are just learning that your pilots cannot simply jump into the cockpit of aircraft and fly circles around the enemy---your air force has lost the best oppurtunities it had to get the aircraft of choice---your air force decieved the french and the swedes and got bitten so hard in return that it is not even funny---.
> 
> My boy---our air force is so pathetic that during time of war---it could not protect it most expensive assets---. Just like in the 71 war---the RB57 was destroyed on the tarmac---likewise---P3 c destroyed in karachi---other assets destroyed at kamra---.



As usual there is a distinct lack of logic / common sense / explanation in your post.

Please give specific details of where / how current and former ACM's were 'criminally negligent'.??
Which aircraft 'of choice' did the PAF lose the oppertunity to get and when??
PAF decieved the French and Swedes and then got bitten so hard?? --- when, where and how??
Do you just make this stuff up or are you on a different planet?

During war time many nations lose aircraft on the ground -- including India -- does that make all their airforces 'pathetic?'
P3-C was a naval aircraft not PAF asset. Karachi and Kamra terrorist attacks do not justify you labeling the PAF as pathetic. If it does pehaps 'your' US airforce is also pathetic for failing to prevent 9/11???


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## trident2010

abdulbarijan said:


> Now i know this is a fact when it comes to export planes, however thats all we'v got, so its the situation where Pakistanis like me will take it as authentic and indians will leave it...
> plus I remember many of our indian friends saying the same about the "stealth projects" and cracking jokes like there is no stealth project of China etc only to get a huge wake up call with the appearance of the Mighty dragon...
> Like i said in my first response, J-10A will offer capabilities in the region of block 52 at best and what we need is something better than that keeping in view the latest Indian acquisitions like the rafales and super sukhois



I understand that until the reliable information regarding the J-10A comes out whatever we discuss here is debatable. However, from what we can see from here is that PAF doesn't want to go for J-10's until they get significant upgrade form its current specifications. 

By the looks of it J-10 seems to be a promising design, however, still we have to see how much advances has been made in technologies which cannot be evaluated by just naked eyes. Radars, engines, avionics, EW suites and so on and so forth. If PAF had a choice and say hypothetically didn't have a economic and unreliable supply of parts problem, they would never go for Chinese platform for their defense needs. 

Same is true for Chinese 5th gen planes, by the looks they are at par with other 5th gen design, however we have to see how really they come up with in the terms of 5th gen radars, engines electronics and weapons systems. 

PAF is definitely aware of it and therefore they are taking their sweet time to see how these systems evolves.


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## abdulbarijan

trident2010 said:


> I understand that until the reliable information regarding the J-10A comes out whatever we discuss here is debatable. However, from what we can see from here is that PAF doesn't want to go for J-10's until they get significant upgrade form its current specifications.
> 
> By the looks of it J-10 seems to be a promising design, however, still we have to see how much advances has been made in technologies which cannot be evaluated by just naked eyes. Radars, engines, avionics, EW suites and so on and so forth. If PAF had a choice and say hypothetically didn't have a economic and unreliable supply of parts problem, *they would never go for Chinese platform for their defense needs. *
> 
> Same is true for Chinese 5th gen planes, by the looks they are at par with other 5th gen design, however we have to see how really they come up with in the terms of 5th gen radars, engines electronics and weapons systems.
> 
> PAF is definitely aware of it and therefore they are taking their sweet time to see how these systems evolves.




For the most part I agree, but for the bolded part, I dont think so. 
It depends on the priorities
*-Technology* (west definitely has an edge at that as they have proven technology but like every body knows chinese have made quite a leap, a sudden appearance of two stealth projects in less than 2 years is suffice proof)
*-Cost effectiveness* (doesn't matter if our economy is better, fact is PAF will still consider the price for what technology they are being given like any other "sensible" customer would ... and if someone offers the same technological level in a lower rate it just amplifies their chances to be selected for the purchase)
*-Reliability *This is the part where Chinese will always dominate the Pakistani market, an all weather friend who has helped pakistan time and again ...

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## 帅的一匹

China technology is not just a cheap potatoes in the marketplace, It is reliable and cost effective for Pakistan. If there is a war, the supply of Chinese made weapon will be consistently delivered to Pakistan. This is a key factor of consideration of PAF weapon procurement. Last time prime Gialni visited china for support, china agree to deliver 50 JF17 thunders for free ASAP. That's called ally! When will Russia supply India fighters for free? Business is business, that is Russia do to India.

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## fatman17

China&#8217;s Warplane Industry Expands


Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology

November 05, 2012

Bill Sweetman - Washington


A half-dozen years ago, China's aircraft industry had not delivered a single competitive, operational fighter of its own design. Today, two are in service&#8212;the low-cost JF-17 and the J-10, the latter apparently comparable to most current in-production fighters&#8212;and China is still delivering bargain-basement fighters evolved from the classic Mikoyan MiG-21. The country's industry has developed an indigenous version of the Su-27 (the Russians might call it something less creditable) and is in the process of doing the same with the carrier-based member of the family, the Su-33. 

Moreover, the Chengdu and Shenyang design teams have produced prototypes of two next-generation combat aircraft incorporating stealth technology, in the form of the canard-delta J-20 and the Lockheed Martin-influenced design identified as the J-31. An expanding range of air-launched missiles has been developed for the new fighters, together with new-generation sensors including active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radars and infrared search-and-track (IRST) systems. 

China's flagship international fighter program is the JF-17 Thunder, developed and produced by Chengdu in cooperation with Pakistan, which has used it as a vehicle to create and grow its government-operated industry. It evolved from a series of Chinese studies of radically modified MiG-21s but was an entirely new aircraft by the time the design was unveiled at the Paris air show in 1999. In the same year, Pakistan signed the initial co-development agreement with China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corp.(Catic). 

&#8220;At the start of the project, Pakistan had no industrial or technological base,&#8221; Pakistan air force then-chief of staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman said at a conference last year. However, he noted that Pakistan has participated in all stages of the design and helped develop the requirement for the fighter. The design was defined in 2001 and first flight took place in 2003, six prototypes were followed by a batch of eight Chinese-built aircraft for evaluation. Production in Pakistan started in 2005 and the first locally built aircraft rolled out in November 2009. According to Suleman, the type's performance &#8220;exceeded expectations,&#8221; leading to a decision to perform tests and introduce it into service in parallel. 

Pakistan's goal is to replace its &#8220;vintage&#8221; fleet, comprising more than 250 Mirages and older Chinese F-7 and A-5III fighters, with JF-17s. The first batch of 42 aircraft, the last of them delivered earlier this year, replaced the A-5IIIs (a 1970s-era Chinese development of the MiG-19), *equipping three squadrons*. Overall, Suleman says, the JF-17 should allow the air force to replace its older fleet (not necessarily one-for-one, given the much greater capability of the new aircraft) at &#8220;one-third to one-fourth&#8221; the acquisition cost of any other modern fighter, with a similar savings in operating cost. 

The JF-17 has been displayed at the Dubai and Farnborough air shows, and Pakistan's industry has talked to avionics suppliers worldwide about providing systems for the aircraft. According to the Russian media, the original contract for the fighter's RD-93 engine covered 100 powerplants with an option for 500 more, and an uprated 20,500-lb.-thrust version, the RD-93MA, is under development.* Meanwhile, one JF-17 is reported to be flying in China with the Guizhou WS-13 engine*. 

*Still under negotiation is the sale to Pakistan of the larger Chengdu J-10B, a modernized version of the canard-delta J-10. Although Pakistani interest in the J-10 has been reported since 2006, no firm deal has been announced. The most recent reports suggest that China has offered a squadron of J-10Bs. The new version differs from the original in featuring an AESA radar, IRST, a diverterless inlet and underwing fairings that point to an improved electronic-warfare suite*. 

Unlike the JF-17, neither the J-10 nor the J-10B has been demonstrated outside China. The J-10B's existence is known only via Internet leaks, but its existence makes the J-10 look like a sunset program. Also, the production of the J-10 still depends on Russian engine supplies. 

China has ordered a total of 399 AL-31FN engines from Russia, according to Stockholm International Peace Research Institute data; its most recent order, for 123 engines, was placed last year. Of those, 276 had been delivered by 2011. Most of these power 220-plus J-10s, but others have been used in the Shenyang J-11B and J-15&#8212;the &#8220;bootleg&#8221; versions, respectively, of the Su-27 and Su-33. *The indigenous WS-10A Taihang engine is under development and reported to be under test on J-10B and J-11B prototypes, but the 2011 order, covering four years of J-10 production at the rates seen so far, suggests that full production quantities of the WS-10A are not expected until 2015*. 

*Technologically, the J-10B may be a stepping-stone to the J-20 and J-31*. The status of China's stealth program has not become much clearer since the surprise appearance of the heavyweight J-20 at the end of 2010. However, the unveiling of the smaller&#8212;roughly Joint Strike Fighter-sized&#8212;J-31 points to the two designs being complementary, rather than alternatives. Despite their different shapes and sizes, the J-20 and J-31 are similar in that they appear to have advanced beyond the stage of being pure technology demonstrators. Both are larger than the J-10, pointing to a future three-level force mix. 

In the next few years, the pace of Chinese fighter development may be set by the resources available and the sheer number of programs. In 2005, China had three major fighter projects underway: the JF-17, J-10 and J-11B. Today, it has the J-10B and J-15, and both Chengdu and Shenyang have challenging stealth programs. 

An older fighter that apparently remains in production is the Chengdu J-7, developed from the MiG-21, but with changes including a double-delta, slatted wing and new canopy. In 2011, the Bangladeshi air force announced that it would be taking delivery this year of a squadron of 15 F-7BGI fighters, equipped with a three-screen glass cockpit, head-up display and hands-on-throttle-and-stick controls. These will begin to replace the mixed force of older F-7s, A-5IIIs and MiG-29s. 


_this article confirms;

1. 3 sqn's of JFT are ready.
2. chinese engines are still 2-3 years away from mass production.
3. J-10B is the way forward as J-10's been referred to as a 'sunset program'._

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## killerx

its artical gives some relief we are getting J10B the JF17 spotted with tail no 75 means the no are 75 for sure on PAF 25 more soon that's great and love to se e J10B performing at the china air show 2012


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## Skywalker

killerx said:


> its artical gives some relief we are getting J10B the JF17 spotted with tail no 75 means the no are 75 for sure on PAF 25 more soon that's great and love to se e J10B performing at the china air show 2012



No chance of getting fc20 until or unless the chinese engine is matured. most importantly we dont even have sufficient fund to buy one squadron of fc20 let alone a full fleet.


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## Luftwaffe

Enjoy!

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## 帅的一匹

J-10B is in mass production in Chengdu, a picture shows a yellow J10b ready for take service soon. one could tell this by the IRST and the EW suit on its tail top.

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## 帅的一匹

The first batch of J10B will be equipped with AL-31FN engines. And WS-10A will follow on the second batch, the same routine as we do on J11B. China will keep buying AL-31F from Russia to fill up the gap due to inadequate production capacity of WS10A. The reason why China stock so many Al-31F is to prevent engine shortage if a war break up with Japan any time possible, might USA will get involved too. The estimated loss of fighter of PLAAF in the first three days would be 300 plus. We need at least 1000 pieice of AL31F in our stock for emergency back-up. As long as China pay hard cash, Russia will produce on full scale. It's type of weird ally. We need another 3 or 5 years to get over this barricade, until that, China will keep importing Russian engines.

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## SBD-3

J-10B new prototype

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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> * Meanwhile, one JF-17 is reported to be flying in China with the Guizhou WS-13 engine*.


Here you go

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## 帅的一匹

We have to work very hard to ensure WS-13 put in service before 2015. This will enhance the national defence security level of Pakistan, cause no string will be pulled by third party in war time.

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## razgriz19

killerx said:


> its artical gives some relief we are getting J10B the JF17 spotted with tail no 75 means the no are 75 for sure on PAF 25 more soon that's great and love to se e J10B performing at the china air show 2012



im sorry, where was jf-17 spotted with the tail no 75?
maybe i missed something..


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I love the blue and white , colors on J10 just a very very beautiful bird

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## Tehmasib

Bhai jan yeh bata dain kab yeh pakistan ko milaneen gay....


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## SamranAli

MashaALLAH. Hard work is going on. Best of luck to Chengdu and PAC.


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## killerx

Skywalker said:


> No chance of getting fc20 until or unless the chinese engine is matured. most importantly we dont even have sufficient fund to buy one squadron of fc20 let alone a full fleet.



i think we should keep in mind the statement in mind china said Pakistan is its Israel so the have already promised us 50 JF17 at zero cost its really big favor for PAF and two new stealth 5th gen programs on the way these kind of statements is to keep the completion happy engines will be in the production soon Jet engines are the most difficult part of a jet need years of testing and tuning and J10B 2 squad is must the Parliament cant get funds for it or another marshal law zero personall expense of the democracy gov buy 4 squad 



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I love the blue and white , colors on J10 just a very very beautiful bird



beside the colors J10B fresh paint full payload looks much killer 



Tehmasib said:


> Bhai jan yeh bata dain kab yeh pakistan ko milaneen gay....



bahi jan jab sabar karo need to replace F7 and mirages first with JF17


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## abdulbarijan

killerx said:


> i think we should keep in mind the statement in mind china said Pakistan is its Israel so the have already promised us 50 JF17 at zero cost its really big favor for PAF and two new stealth 5th gen programs on the way these kind of statements is to keep the completion happy engines will be in the production soon Jet engines are the most difficult part of a jet need years of testing and tuning and J10B 2 squad is must the Parliament cant get funds for it or another marshal law zero personall expense of the democracy gov buy 4 squad
> 
> 
> 
> beside the colors J10B fresh paint full payload looks much killer
> 
> 
> 
> bahi jan jab sabar karo need to replace F7 and mirages first with JF17




Well let me tell you something my friend, as a business student the first thing they make you learn 

*" There is no such thing as a free meal" *

Let me translate it in to in this situation of China-Pak ties, sure both the countries are BFF's (as we teens like to call it) but its because we are mutually beneficial for each other, Pakistan is practically a free ticket to warm waters for China so ofcourse they will help us out because we are helping them out and have so in the past....

However lets just assume that we are not able to keep our end of the bargain or at one point become useless, thats the point *we have to think over and develop an indigenous industry .....while we keep making fun of our indian counterparts I do feel that theoretically what they are trying to accomplish will cause a great disparity (yes greater than it already is in terms of technology and know how) ... (assuming that they get there ... but as we know they are still struggling .... but thats good for them cuz atleast they have tried to make an effort in the right direction for themselves and their future generations)
*
I know this will strike some nerves but some times truth does that..


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## aphantee

abdulbarijan said:


> Well let me tell you something my friend, as a business student the first thing they make you learn
> 
> *" There is no such thing as a free meal" *
> 
> Let me translate it in to in this situation of China-Pak ties, sure both the countries are BFF's (as we teens like to call it) but its because we are mutually beneficial for each other, Pakistan is practically a free ticket to warm waters for China so ofcourse they will help us out because we are helping them out and have so in the past....
> 
> However lets just assume that we are not able to keep our end of the bargain or at one point become useless, thats the point *we have to think over and develop an indigenous industry .....while we keep making fun of our indian counterparts I do feel that theoretically what they are trying to accomplish will cause a great disparity (yes greater than it already is in terms of technology and know how) ... (assuming that they get there ... but as we know they are still struggling .... but thats good for them cuz atleast they have tried to make an effort in the right direction for themselves and their future generations)
> *
> 
> I know this will strike some nerves but some times truth does that..


my friend. pakistan is now doing well in developing your own indigenous industry now.
however, i believe, you should also know that if chinese people are so shrewd businessmen as you commented, china would have be a complete capitalist country long before

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## 帅的一匹

Chinese will payback 10 times the love others give to us, not to mention Pakistan is our brother and ally.

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## 帅的一匹

Looking into the past, USA was with Pakistan once, now pro India. That's called geo strategic relationship. China and Pakistan keep brotherhood relationship no matter how dramatically the world has changed. I mean Chinese needs pakistan's friendship, that's all. We don't care what Pakistan could do or could not do, cause we are brothers. Please give me thanks if anyone agree with me. Chinese love pakistani.

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## Kompromat

wanglaokan said:


> Looking into the past, USA was with Pakistan once



Negative, they sanctioned us when our neck was on the line in 65 and 71.



> now pro India.



Negative, US is only pro US. They are trying the same theory on India which they tried on Pakistan in 60s and 70s.



> That's called geo strategic relationship.



It was and is a Master & Slave relationship -- i have no shame in saying that. They have raped Pakistan for decades, specially using us a whip against Soviets in Afghanistan. If it wasn't for American intervention the USSR had no plans to invade Afghanistan. They simply didn't want soviets accessing Karachi. 



> China and Pakistan keep brotherhood relationship no matter how dramatically the world has changed. I mean Chinese needs pakistan's friendship, that's all. We don't care what Pakistan could do or could not do, cause we are brothers. Please give me thanks if anyone agree with me. Chinese love pakistani.



Trade-Business-Trade-Business-Business-Business. This will form a solid base for SINOPAK ties in the region. Canada became Canada by simply exporting beef and other trivial products to the US through a priority trade agreement. I, wish to see the same between SinoPak. China will be the largest economy on earth in 2016, we want our share of trade not aid. A true relationship would the one based on mutual benefits, and saving each other's *** in the time of need.

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## monitor

wanglaokan said:


> Looking into the past, USA was with Pakistan once, now pro India. That's called geo strategic relationship. China and Pakistan keep brotherhood relationship no matter how dramatically the world has changed. I mean Chinese needs pakistan's friendship, that's all. We don't care what Pakistan could do or could not do, cause we are brothers. Please give me thanks if anyone agree with me. Chinese love pakistani.



there is no free lunch in international politics . Pakistan need China so do china also need Pakistan . however the relationship between Pakistan and China remain same for fifty years a vibrant example of trust and friendship .


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## BigDaddyWatch

hasnain0099 said:


> J-10B new prototype



This is said to be the first mass production plane at least according to "wall climbers" in China. And it looks like it has a WS-10A engine. But i guess we have to wait and see.


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## SBD-3

BigDaddyWatch said:


> This is said to be the first mass production plane at least according to "wall climbers" in China. And it looks like it has a *WS-10A engine*. But i guess we have to wait and see.







Its AL-31F on the contrary

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## 帅的一匹

The first batch is equipped with Al31FN.


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## Viper0011.

Skywalker said:


> No chance of getting fc20 until or unless the chinese engine is matured. most importantly we dont even have sufficient fund to buy one squadron of fc20 let alone a full fleet.



I think the PAF needed to either cancel the FC-20 deal or acquire this in limited numbers. Unless they were going to produce these in house and make a stealthy version rather quick in the 2nd batch, then the deal should be kept.

PAF needs a change in strategy....they should opt for J-31 and the J-16. Grow JFT numbers (include a semi-stealthy block III with western BVR and AESA as an option). 

FC-20 may be a great plane but stealth optimized J-31 is a much better bet from any angle. Yes, I know PAF's doctrine of single engine but that's obsolete in the view of current emerging threats around Pakistan

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## Luftwaffe

orangzaib said:


> I think the PAF needed to either cancel the FC-20 deal or acquire this in limited numbers. Unless they were going to produce these in house and make a stealthy version rather quick in the 2nd batch, then the deal should be kept.
> 
> PAF needs a change in strategy....they should opt for J-31 and the J-16. Grow JFT numbers (include a semi-stealthy block III with western BVR and AESA as an option).
> 
> FC-20 may be a great plane but stealth optimized J-31 is a much better bet from any angle. Yes, I know PAF's doctrine of single engine but that's obsolete in the view of current emerging threats around Pakistan



Agree with you J-31 a post 2020 requirement for PAF considering IAF is going for highly capable Fighters like more Sukhois-Rafale and later Pak-FA, Twin Engine will become necessity of the Future for PAF. 60-64 FC-20/J-10B are enough after that PAF should focus on J-31 while keep upgrading or developing JF-17 Blk III.

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## Edevelop

orangzaib said:


> I think the PAF needed to either cancel the FC-20 deal or acquire this in limited numbers. Unless they were going to produce these in house and make a stealthy version rather quick in the 2nd batch, then the deal should be kept.
> 
> PAF needs a change in strategy....they should opt for J-31 and the J-16. Grow JFT numbers (include a semi-stealthy block III with western BVR and AESA as an option).
> 
> FC-20 may be a great plane but stealth optimized J-31 is a much better bet from any angle. Yes, I know PAF's doctrine of single engine but that's obsolete in the view of current emerging threats around Pakistan




Realistically,(keeping in mind of money) I would say:

350 JF-17 (Block 1, 2, 3)
70 F-16 (Block 40 MLU, 52)
70 J-10B
50 J-31

to counter IAF's:

272 Su-30 MKI
120 Rafale
68 Mig-29
45 Mirage 2000
? LCA
? PAKFA


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## danger007

^^^ what ever you are mentioning stealthy or stealthy, it need complete new design...... how can you get stealthy JF-17 with external hard points.... huh....


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## 帅的一匹

danger007 said:


> ^^^ what ever you are mentioning stealthy or stealthy, it need complete new design...... how can you get stealthy JF-17 with external hard points.... huh....


He means semi-stealthy fighter like Rafale, don't distort others' saying.



cb4 said:


> Realistically,(keeping in mind of money) I would say:
> 
> 350 JF-17 (Block 1, 2, 3)
> 70 F-16 (Block 40 MLU, 52)
> 70 J-10B
> 50 J-31
> 
> to counter IAF's:
> 
> 272 Su-30 MKI
> 120 Rafale
> 68 Mig-29
> 45 Mirage 2000
> ? LCA
> ? PAKFA



If this is gonna be true, IAF will lost its so called huge advantage once for all..............


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## Edevelop

wanglaokan said:


> If this is gonna be true, IAF will lost its so called huge advantage once for all..............



They will because Pakistan is 4x smaller country and it would mean enough warplanes for PAF to protect border


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## 帅的一匹

China will posess 1800 of 4 gen and 4.5gen fighters , Plus 200 stealthy fighter in year 2020. Better for India to be a good boy in the region, leave Pakistan alone.

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## 帅的一匹




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## danger007

wanglaokan said:


> China will posess 1800 of 4 gen and 4.5gen fighters , Plus 200 stealthy fighter in year 2020. Better for India to be a good boy in the region, leave Pakistan alone.



you must be joking..... 200 by 2020 i bet that....


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## 帅的一匹

danger007 said:


> you must be joking..... 200 by 2020 i bet that....


To be or not to be, that's a question for India.


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## 帅的一匹

danger007 said:


> you must be joking..... 200 by 2020 i bet that....


Try to figure out by China speed, not Indian ones.

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## Viper0011.

danger007 said:


> ^^^ what ever you are mentioning stealthy or stealthy, it need complete new design...... how can you get stealthy JF-17 with external hard points.... huh....



If you re-read the post....the term used for JFT was SEMI-Stealth due to the current design limitations. However, a type of a diamond-shaped boxed hard point (stealthy) can be designed that can hold 2 (or more) bvr's in it easily (multiple ejectors within the stealth box) and can release them just like internal weapons bay. The time of release would be the only time when the signature will increase, just like F-22 or F-35. But that should be a fraction of a second.
This stealthy hard point is much easier to so than redesigning the airframe for stealthy features and include the internal weapons bay. The rest of the airframe can be optimized for Stealth due to the use of RAM / Carbon Fiber / composites and compressed airflow exit to reduce the signature, both Radar and IR. This is a much cost effective and quicker process than redesigning a whole airframe, engine nozzles, testing, rework, etc.


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## Alfa-Fighter

orangzaib said:


> If you re-read the post....the term used for JFT was SEMI-Stealth due to the current design limitations. However, a type of a diamond-shaped boxed hard point (stealthy) can be designed that can hold 2 (or more) bvr's in it easily (multiple ejectors within the stealth box) and can release them just like internal weapons bay. The time of release would be the only time when the signature will increase, just like F-22 or F-35. But that should be a fraction of a second.
> This stealthy hard point is much easier to so than redesigning the airframe for stealthy features and include the internal weapons bay. The rest of the airframe can be optimized for Stealth due to the use of RAM / Carbon Fiber / composites and compressed airflow exit to reduce the signature, both Radar and IR. This is a much cost effective and quicker process than redesigning a whole airframe, engine nozzles, testing, rework, etc.



once you done it we will talk about it, BTW which metal the JF-17 uses ? i am bet sure it wont be using titanium.



wanglaokan said:


> China will posess 1800 of 4 gen and 4.5gen fighters , Plus 200 stealthy fighter in year 2020. Better for India to be a good boy in the region, leave Pakistan alone.





BTW way most of your 1800 or so MIG-21 type plane not able to cross mountains. the remaining russian design will be taken care by SU-30 MKI. 


Dont worry, With Russia , US, Vietnam , Japan and India , India will be a ***** cat again..... behave yourself or you will be again reach dark ages.....

not only design make thing stealth.. material also matters..


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## Viper0011.

cb4 said:


> Realistically,(keeping in mind of money) I would say:
> 
> 350 JF-17 (Block 1, 2, 3)
> 70 F-16 (Block 40 MLU, 52)
> 70 J-10B
> 50 J-31
> 
> to counter IAF's:
> 
> 272 Su-30 MKI
> 120 Rafale
> 68 Mig-29
> 45 Mirage 2000
> ? LCA
> ? PAKFA



I think you've WAY over simplified the equation. You are giving Pakistan almost 600 combat ready jets with India having about 500 of them and two question marks on LCA and PakFa. You realize they also have a ton of strike aircraft, etc that they'll be using till 2025 at the least? So if we add 200 LCA and 100 PakFa.....your total number reaches to 1200 Indian planes estimated vs. 600 Pakistani jets.
This STILL is a very potent number and can allow Pakistan to hold its own as India won't just put 1200 jets off the Western border. However, the plane to plane comparison gets a little towards hi end from India to mid end of Pakistan (JFT B I & II). Assuming Indians actually do what they've been saying about the capability of LCA (with the Western help, it'll eventually get there). 

But to go back to the scenario, Pakistan will need either about 2-4 squadrons of J-31 and about 4 squadrons of J-16 (additional 140 - 160 planes will be needed to be added to your mix). These will be for PAF and PN. The PN will need a dedicated air arm. Even though I think they should have a mix of 2 - 4 squadrons of J-16 and at least 1 squadrons of J-31, I think they might get 2 squadrons of J-16 and 1 of J-31. The rest will go to PAF. So you need to add about 140 more planes to your list. 

India is fielding the top of the line equipment next to the Pakistani border so you'll need the top end planes in the war scenario available to deliver a punch. JFT B II and III may be very good but they'll be dealing with LCA and others. I think its safe to assume that LCA may see similar numbers compared to JFT. If the above numbers can be met or closely met, it will be VERY difficult for India to win an air war from Pakistan. Unless they move 100% of their assets to the West (which can't happen). So Pakistan will need to swallow the bitter pill and buy some advanced jets in numbers to zero out the Indian technology and machine ratio. it'll go back to 1:2 and Pakistani pilots are trained to handle the 1:2 scenario. The next critical item is layered air defense, specially the long range 100 mile out SAMS. Pakistan needs to procure, tot and then internally produce SAMS with advance AESA with high altitude and long ranges. These will need to make the out tier and the most inner tier. Backed up by short range area defense and medium range intermediate range. (similar to what China's done off the coast around Taiwan).

This will ensure a very solid deference. to take care of either side of the border. 
The point is, you need to add at least 30 more J-31 to your numbers and about 80 J-16's.


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## 帅的一匹

Alfa-Fighter said:


> BTW way most of your 1800 or *so MIG-21 type plane not able to cross mountains*. the remaining russian design will be taken care by SU-30 MKI.
> 
> 
> Dont worry, With Russia , US, Vietnam , Japan and India , India will be a ***** cat again..... behave yourself or you will be again reach dark ages.....
> 
> not only design make thing stealth.. material also matters..


can you read man? I said 4 gen fighters, since when Mig21 is s 4 gen fighters?BTW, its called J7 , Mig21 of IAF won't last until 2020 cause it will keep crash like flying coffin. No one will be with you when you aganist China, dream on. Nehru called USAAF to provide air cover during 1962 war, the anwser was a big damn NO, a slap right on his face/indian way of thinking! Mental masturbation hurts your fragile body. With a much stronger China nowadays, will you think USA will ever help you fight China for your ambitious delusion?

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## danger007

orangzaib said:


> If you re-read the post....the term used for JFT was SEMI-Stealth due to the current design limitations. However, a type of a diamond-shaped boxed hard point (stealthy) can be designed that can hold 2 (or more) bvr's in it easily (multiple ejectors within the stealth box) and can release them just like internal weapons bay. The time of release would be the only time when the signature will increase, just like F-22 or F-35. But that should be a fraction of a second.
> This stealthy hard point is much easier to so than redesigning the airframe for stealthy features and include the internal weapons bay. The rest of the airframe can be optimized for Stealth due to the use of RAM / Carbon Fiber / composites and compressed airflow exit to reduce the signature, both Radar and IR. This is a much cost effective and quicker process than redesigning a whole airframe, engine nozzles, testing, rework, etc.




wow u r bringing jf-17 and f-22 and f-35 into one equation... lol..


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## Anony

Chinese government never discloses the performance of their fighter jet. So how come every one coming to the conclusion that j 10 is a very good aircraft comparable to F 16 Blk 52.

1. It will have AESA radar.(not having)

2. It can maneuverability of 9g.(it never had)

3. It will have WS 10/13 engine.(it don't have)

4. It can be compared to 4.5 gen fighter.(for what specific technology, only god knows)

5. It will have a very good EW suite.(No description about that good thing.)

.
.
.
.


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## Kompromat

wanglaokan said:


> China will posess 1800 of 4 gen and 4.5gen fighters , Plus 200 stealthy fighter in year 2020. Better for India to be a good boy in the region, leave Pakistan alone.



China is following a different path to that of the United States. They want ALL stealthy fighters which is being opposed by many in the USAF. They will have poorly trained pilots because they wouldn't be able to provide enough hours for them to fly, they are planning to use simulators.

China on the other hand, would have a mix of 4 - 4.5 - 4++ and 5th generation air crafts and would slowly go down replacement platform path, but wouldn't get rid of its older fleet, which is a good strategy. PAF should do the same and focus on JF-17 development. This is our ace in a hole to keep our pilots one of the best in the world. Then comes equipment, which hopefully by 2020 we would see quite a lot of.

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## 帅的一匹

Anony said:


> Chinese government never discloses the performance of their fighter jet. So how come every one coming to the conclusion that j 10 is a very good aircraft comparable to F 16 Blk 52.
> 
> 1. It will have AESA radar.(not having)
> 
> 2. It can maneuverability of 9g.(it never had)
> 
> 3. It will have WS 10/13 engine.(it don't have)
> 
> 4. It can be compared to 4.5 gen fighter.(for what specific technology, only god knows)
> 
> 5. It will have a very good EW suite.(No description about that good thing.)
> 
> .
> 
> .
> .


Your sorry media failed to inform you about the truth of aforementioned, that's all.

You guys live in world of free media, even free to tell lies. Reference to BBC alike.


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## 帅的一匹

You are new here , read more senior members' post before you post random here.


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## Anony

Yes I am new here but not new on defence related talks. Instead of acting like a step brother, simply give us a link that what extra features are there in j 10 to call it's a 4.5 gen fighter or calling it comparable to F 16 blk 52.

Or prove that my post are wrong.


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## INDIAISM

Anony said:


> Yes I am new here but not new on defence related talks. Instead of acting like a step brother, simply give us a link that what extra features are there in j 10 to call it's a 4.5 gen fighter or calling it comparable to F 16 blk 52.
> 
> Or prove that my post are wrong.


AESA or PESA radar...Btw F16 Blk 52 itself is almost a 4.5 Gen Fighter jet the thing it mising is AESA radar....


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## trident2010

Again the same questions arises. Lookwise, yes J-10 seems to be nice design like eurocanards however, apart from that what makes it better than say F-16 blk 52 or Mig-29 SMT? May be a reliable source of information which give a details regarding engine, radar, EW suite etc would be useful for the discussion. And most important how they compare with for example F-16 blk 52 or Mig-29 SMT?


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## abdulbarijan

Anony said:


> Chinese government never discloses the performance of their fighter jet. So how come every one coming to the conclusion that j 10 is a very good aircraft comparable to F 16 Blk 52.
> 
> 1. It will have AESA radar.(not having)
> 
> 2. It can maneuverability of 9g.(it never had)
> 
> 3. It will have WS 10/13 engine.(it don't have)
> 
> 4. It can be compared to 4.5 gen fighter.(for what specific technology, only god knows)
> 
> 5. It will have a very good EW suite.(No description about that good thing.)
> 
> .
> .
> .
> .






Anony said:


> Yes I am new here* but not new on defence related talks. Instead of acting like a step brother, *simply give us a link that what extra features are there in j 10 to call it's a 4.5 gen fighter or calling it comparable to F 16 blk 52.
> 
> Or prove that my post are wrong.



Welcome to the forum mate and a friendly advise please refrain from asking such BS that has been answered many times before or else we dont give the same treatment to a specific nationality like somewhere else on the internet .... 


Coming to your allegations ... 
lets review ... Like you yourself state, China does not officially disclose details however that doesn't mean they dont have the goodies... they just dont like to boost about things .. unlike someone that starts boosting about things they will get a decade after they first start boosting about it


*-J-10B not having AESA/PESA radar....*
Chinese AESA Radar Development For J-10B And J-20 Fighter Jets ~ASIAN DEFENSE NEWS
*
-Maneuverability of 9G's *
why dont you give us a link saying it cant, as far as reports go, it locked SU-27 based J-11's and two from the SU-30 family, 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/118638-vietnam-su-30-locked-j-10-10-times.html

The design of J-10 (canard delta configuration) is used by the most advanced jets in service as of today (gripen,Rafale and EF-2000) 

*Engine issue*

See this.. A WS-10 powered prototype of J-10B
Chengdu Flies Chinese-powered J-10 Fighter | Aviation International News

*J-10 a 4.5 generation jet*
Now what else will you call a fighter with AESA radar using a very advanced design with a good payload capability, RAM coatings for RCS reduction, state of the art weaponry and a performance track ( Keep in mind it was J-10A or basic J-10 that outperformed the flankers, its only going to be better in the B model when a TVC capable engine in the form of WS-10 is introduced which happens to be fitted in one of the prototypes)

So why dont you please prove your allegation ...instead of asking us to prove you wrong ... which we will gladly do ....




*SO NOW MY BOY BEFORE OPENING UP YOUR YAP AGAIN, DO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WITH HECK OF A LOT KNOWLEDGE THAN A SELF PROCLAIMED EXPERIENCED DEFENSE ANALYST LIKE YOURSELF ....*

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## sancho

orangzaib said:


> If you re-read the post....the term used for JFT was SEMI-Stealth due to the current design limitations. However, a type of a diamond-shaped boxed hard point (stealthy) can be designed that can hold 2 (or more) bvr's in it easily (multiple ejectors within the stealth box) and can release them just like internal weapons bay. The time of release would be the only time when the signature will increase, just like F-22 or F-35. But that should be a fraction of a second.
> This stealthy hard point is much easier to so than redesigning the airframe for stealthy features and include the internal weapons bay. The rest of the airframe can be optimized for Stealth due to the use of RAM / Carbon Fiber / composites and compressed airflow exit to reduce the signature, both Radar and IR. This is a much cost effective and quicker process than redesigning a whole airframe, engine nozzles, testing, rework, etc.



You are thinking about the Silent Hornet here, but are missing the main points!

- even the Silent Hornet carries it's IR missiles at the wingtips, which counters most of the reduction of the weaponpod again
- the main contributor to RCS reduction (not stealth) of that version was deleting external fuel tanks with CFTs
- JF 17 as of now has hardly any RCS reduction features, infact it might be the only modern fighter development without composites materials and RAM coatings included from the design stage, which makes further reductions more difficult again

So even to get a "Silent JF 17", you have to completelly re-design the whole fighter, which translates into high costs and limited performance compared to a real stealth fighter. It would be more realistic to reduce the RCS of it in minor stages with the coming upgrades and benefit from the low operational costs, to safe money for J31 in future, since it is pretty likely that 1 x J31 = 2 or 3 x JF17 in terms of procurement or operational costs!

To bring it back to the topic again, J10B makes only sence for PAF, if it offers credible capability advantages over JF 17 upgrades, or if J31 is a very costly and long shot. It would be a cost-effective stopgap solution but from what we know so far, it don't seems to have many real improvements and without Chinese engines PAF seems not to want it anyway.

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## ziaulislam

realistically PAF i aiming for 150 thunders 80 odd f-16s and 50 odd j-10s
and 50-75 odd stealth plans with force of around 350

to counter india 800 fighters in 2025

unless a better govt comes with a better econmy


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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> realistically PAF i aiming for 150 thunders 80 odd f-16s and 50 odd j-10s
> and 50-75 odd stealth plans with force of around 350
> 
> to counter india 800 fighters in 2025
> 
> unless a better govt comes with a better econmy



PAF has never planned beyond 20-22 combat squadrons whatever the IAF strength. the ratio will remain 2:1 in IAF favour.

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## Anony

@ abdulbarijan

Hello my senior brother to this forum, your link don't seem that senior. Following are the reason why:

*AESA RADAR:* It is showing the prototype under development not developed and tested. Still has long way to go. As far as development is concerned I too know that it was under development from long time and that one day it will become reality. But that day is not now. Similar to AESA on LCA. This is the reason I never bring AESA into picture when I discuss about LCA because it will be completed in 2015 and surely it will take another one year to fully mature. Thus, I can't compare something of today by taking future into consideration. Thus F 16 blk 40 is even better than J 10. Let the day come and then we will again compare.

*J 10 locked Su 30:* Hell, you are giving another member's post as proof. Think today I wrongly say LCA is a 5th generation fighter then some Mr. X will link my post to claim that indeed LCA is a 5th gen fighter, will U believe it.

*WS 10:* Nice to know that WS 10 is integrated into J 10 for testing and that means in next two year it will be an operational engine. I considered that.

But again that indigenous engine doesn't make it comparable to 4.5 gen machine, even Russian engine was producing same thrust.

And when I say that Chinese government has not disclose any information, it was for all even for members from China. As it doesn't make sense that government is disclosing classified data to some members of this forum to come and talk abstract.

*So from now onwards stop making fun of others and just discuss your points. But I am letting U go this time as by your post it seems that U r still a novice *


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## Viper0011.

danger007 said:


> wow u r bringing jf-17 and f-22 and f-35 into one equation... lol..



Again, you guys don't read the whole thing do you?? 1: Why can't 3 dissimilar planes not allowed to mention in on paragraph?
2: The ONLY relevance was an external hard point that can ACT like the internal weapons way of F-22 and F-35 IN OPENING UP AND CLOSING upon the release of missiles. There wasn't a comparison between the three to begin with!!!
F-22 will chicken ROAST half the squadron of anything top line that's existing including SU-30, Rafale, EFT, etc, etc. HOW could the mighty F-22 EVEN compare to the JFT???? So refrain from spreading stupidity. Read the post first, understand it and then comment.


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## abdulbarijan

Anony said:


> Hello my senior brother to this forum, your link don't seem that senior. Following are the reason why:
> 
> *AESA RADAR:* It is showing the prototype under development *not developed and tested*. Still has long way to go. As far as development is concerned I too know that it was under development from long time and that one day it will become reality. But that day is not now. *Similar to AESA on LCA.* This is the reason I never bring AESA into picture when I discuss about LCA because it will be completed in 2015 and surely it will take another one year to fully mature. Thus, I can't compare something of today by taking future into consideration. *Thus F 16 blk 40 is even better than J 10.* Let the day come and then we will again compare.



Oh wow .... what a great judgement you have ... so AESA radar of LCA tejas is similar to that of J-10B in terms of project development ... I find that quite funny considering ....
* I have never seen an AESA fitted on an LCA nose.... Have you ??*
And from the link it is clear that J-10B is being tested with AESA as of now ... and please dont bring LCA in to this all, cuz quite frankly you should see this...
LCA Navy - IDP Sentinel

Now as i have heard before wasn't it FOC that was to be achieved by 2014, and after FOC the MK-II version with AESA ......a different version which would in turn require some design changes and in turn *MORE DEVELOPMENT AND MORE TIME*

But as i recall your first statement wasn't even the one you are trying to defend as of now 



> *It will have AESA radar.(not having)*



*this is what you said kiddo, but now supposedly you know about the development of AESA and it being tested on J-10B but according to you the development is comparable to LCA AESA ... which is to be introduced after LCA MK-1 receives FOC which would be after its IOC and according to the link i gave (of an indian source) ... it happens to be (post 2014 just for IOC) 
*

So I just envy your logic .... my friend ...





> *J 10 locked Su 30:* Hell, you are giving another member's post as proof. Think today I wrongly say LCA is a 5th generation fighter then some Mr. X will link my post to claim that indeed LCA is a 5th gen fighter, will U believe it.



The only difference is kiddo, LCA being 5th generation cannot be defended, *on the other hand a J-10 locking on SU-30 is a bright possibility why not* .. PLAAF operates 2 of the most successful flankers (SU-27 & SU-30 MKK) and have made fighters based on their designs J-11 & J-16, so you dont think that their crown indigenous project can even lock on such fighters or is it that your ego is starting to hurt ...
*the person that reported is an insider and has much more reliable information than most of the people on this forum .... certainly more than you and I put together ...*




> *WS 10:* Nice to know that WS 10 is integrated into J 10 for testing and that means in next two year it will be an operational engine. I considered that.
> 
> But again that indigenous engine doesn't make it comparable to 4.5 gen machine, even Russian engine was producing same thrust.
> 
> And when I say that Chinese government has not disclose any information, it was for all even for members from China. As it doesn't make sense that government is disclosing classified data to some members of this forum to come and talk abstract.
> 
> *So from now onwards stop making fun of others and just discuss your points. But I am letting U go this time as by your post it seems that U r still a novice *



Oh bless you for letting me go, such a generous man, *so a 4.5 generation fighter requires a certain level of thrust to be 4.5 generation*so lets go by your standards 

a Gripen is not a 4.5 generation fighter cuz it can offer only arund 100 KN of thrust, but an F-14 Tomcat offering over 100 Kn of thrust by each engine would make it what exactly??????  ...wow ...

Actually the *WS-10B offers slightly high thrust with TVC a BIG upgrade to the already present AL-31's *.. i guess it was around 125 KN while the WS-10 B is above 130 KN along with TVC... *Which brings the T/R to 1+ ..*

*Im glad im a novice, on the bright side even a novice on PDF has the ability to OWN a certain experienced defense analyst ... pity pity*

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## Anony

Abdul don't talk baseless. First comprehend properly what I said and then talk precisely.

I am not bringing LCA and neither comparing it with J 10, I am only saying that AESA radar has not been fitted on J 10 nose. It's still under development. If U have any personal problem to accept an example of LCA then take Gripen's example, where again AESA radar is under development or trial not integrated and tested.
And yes nowhere it was stated that AESA radar has been integrated to J 10, it was written J 10b is going to have AESA radar.

Whether J 10 can lock on SU 30 or F 22 that is not the question, the question is the proof which U have failed to provide.

A fighter is not a 4.5 gen fighter if it can produce 100kn of thrust but on whether it's thrust to weight ratio is more than 1. What I am telling that WS 10 is giving the similar thrust what the Russian engine was providing.

And talking about ego, dude atleast I can have ego because we are almost ready with LCA, a 4.5 gen aircraft, once we get F414 engine. 

Talking about you, you r not in the race dude,a country which can't make a helicopter thinking about fighter planes.

So from next time if U have need to say anything, first understand what i need to say and then talk, that will make sense. Not simple ranting

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## Ammyy

abdulbarijan said:


> Oh wow .... what a great judgement you have ... so AESA radar of LCA tejas is similar to that of J-10B in terms of project development ... I find that quite funny considering ....
> * I have never seen an AESA fitted on an LCA nose.... Have you ??*
> And from the link it is clear that J-10B is being tested with AESA as of now ... and please dont bring LCA in to this all, cuz quite frankly you should see this...
> LCA Navy - IDP Sentinel
> 
> Now as i have heard before wasn't it FOC that was to be achieved by 2014, and after FOC the MK-II version with AESA ......a different version which would in turn require some design changes and in turn *MORE DEVELOPMENT AND MORE TIME*
> 
> But as i recall your first statement wasn't even the one you are trying to defend as of now
> 
> 
> 
> *this is what you said kiddo, but now supposedly you know about the development of AESA and it being tested on J-10B but according to you the development is comparable to LCA AESA ... which is to be introduced after LCA MK-1 receives FOC which would be after its IOC and according to the link i gave (of an indian source) ... it happens to be (post 2014 just for IOC)
> *
> 
> So I just envy your logic .... my friend ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only difference is kiddo, LCA being 5th generation cannot be defended, *on the other hand a J-10 locking on SU-30 is a bright possibility why not* .. PLAAF operates 2 of the most successful flankers (SU-27 & SU-30 MKK) and have made fighters based on their designs J-11 & J-16, so you dont think that their crown indigenous project can even lock on such fighters or is it that your ego is starting to hurt ...
> *the person that reported is an insider and has much more reliable information than most of the people on this forum .... certainly more than you and I put together ...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh bless you for letting me go, such a generous man, *so a 4.5 generation fighter requires a certain level of thrust to be 4.5 generation*so lets go by your standards
> 
> a Gripen is not a 4.5 generation fighter cuz it can offer only arund 100 KN of thrust, but an F-14 Tomcat offering over 100 Kn of thrust by each engine would make it what exactly??????  ...wow ...
> 
> Actually the *WS-10B offers slightly high thrust with TVC a BIG upgrade to the already present AL-31's *.. i guess it was around 125 KN while the WS-10 B is above 130 KN along with TVC... *Which brings the T/R to 1+ ..*
> 
> *Im glad im a novice, on the bright side even a novice on PDF has the ability to OWN a certain experienced defense analyst ... pity pity*



You can make so many claims about AESA, Engine but can not prove even a single 
Their only known fighter is FC1 and we all know about it.


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## Anony

orangzaib said:


> Again, you guys don't read the whole thing do you?? 1: Why can't 3 dissimilar planes not allowed to mention in on paragraph?
> 2: The ONLY relevance was an external hard point that can ACT like the internal weapons way of F-22 and F-35 IN OPENING UP AND CLOSING upon the release of missiles. There wasn't a comparison between the three to begin with!!!
> F-22 will chicken ROAST half the squadron of anything top line that's existing including SU-30, Rafale, EFT, etc, etc. HOW could the mighty F-22 EVEN compare to the JFT???? So refrain from spreading stupidity. Read the post first, understand it and then comment.




@orangzaib: R u an idiot by birth or U love poking.

If U don't know, I would like to remind U that this thread is been opened to have a descriptive comparison between J 10, Mig 29k and N-LCA. From where have u brought the F22. Since U have poked in :

Look at the video of the reply no. 7 posted by sudhir007 where your own national media has something to say about F 22.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/60944-pak-fa-vs-f22-raptor-detailed-analasis.htmlhttp://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/60944-pak-fa-vs-f22-raptor-detailed-analasis.html

Abdul don't talk baseless. First comprehend properly what I said and then talk precisely.

I am not bringing LCA and neither comparing it with J 10, I am only saying that AESA radar has not been fitted on J 10 nose. It's still under development. If U have any personal problem to accept an example of LCA then take Gripen's example, where again AESA radar is under development or trial not integrated and tested.
And yes nowhere it was stated that AESA radar has been integrated to J 10, it was written J 10b is going to have AESA radar.

Whether J 10 can lock on SU 30 or F 22 that is not the question, the question is the proof which U have failed to provide.

A fighter is not a 4.5 gen fighter if it can produce 100kn of thrust but on whether it's thrust to weight ratio is more than 1. What I am telling that WS 10 is giving the similar thrust what the Russian engine was providing.

And talking about ego, dude atleast I can have ego because we are almost ready with LCA, a 4.5 gen aircraft, once we get F414 engine. 

Talking about you, you r not in the race dude,a country which can't make a helicopter thinking about fighter planes.

So from next time if U have need to say anything, first understand what i need to say and then talk, that will make sense. Not simple ranting

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## ringmaster

Anony said:


> Abdul don't talk baseless. First comprehend properly what I said and then talk precisely.
> 
> I am not bringing LCA and neither comparing it with J 10, I am only saying that AESA radar has not been fitted on J 10 nose. It's still under development. If U have any personal problem to accept an example of LCA then take Gripen's example, where again AESA radar is under development or trial not integrated and tested.
> And yes nowhere it was stated that AESA radar has been integrated to J 10, it was written J 10b is going to have AESA radar.
> 
> Whether J 10 can lock on SU 30 or F 22 that is not the question, the question is the proof which U have failed to provide.
> 
> A fighter is not a 4.5 gen fighter if it can produce 100kn of thrust but on whether it's thrust to weight ratio is more than 1. What I am telling that WS 10 is giving the similar thrust what the Russian engine was providing.
> 
> And talking about ego, dude atleast I can have ego because we are almost ready with LCA, a 4.5 gen aircraft, once we get F414 engine.
> 
> Talking about you, you r not in the race dude,a country which can't make a helicopter thinking about fighter planes.
> 
> So from next time if U have need to say anything, first understand what i need to say and then talk, that will make sense. Not simple ranting



so what in ur opinion is a true 4.5 gen aircraft?wht are the parameters for it?


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## ringmaster

if u consider su 30 a 4.5 gen then chinese have got plenty of these so they can compare the perfomance of both the aircrafts


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## abdulbarijan

Anony said:


> Abdul don't talk baseless. First comprehend properly what I said and then talk precisely.
> 
> I am not bringing LCA and neither comparing it with J 10, I am only saying that AESA radar has not been fitted on J 10 nose. It's still under development. If U have any personal problem to accept an example of LCA then take Gripen's example, where again AESA radar is under development or trial not integrated and tested.
> And yes nowhere it was stated that AESA radar has been integrated to J 10, it was written J 10b is going to have AESA radar.
> 
> Whether J 10 can lock on SU 30 or F 22 that is not the question, the question is the proof which U have failed to provide.



An AESA/PESA on a J-10B nose is not enough proof ?? 

*So since you compared the "development with LCA" why dont you show an LCA having an AESA on its nose ... *







Dont forget its the same China that brought two stealth designs on the table in less than 2 years ... And is operating indigenous AWACS like KJ-2000 and is exporting AESA based platforms like ZDK-03 ....

hmm really .. well lets reverse the tables ... I provided you with a reliable insider who posted this news ... now would you do the honors of posting a reliable insider news (some one of pupu's status on online forums) to counter my claims ... 

or is it the fact that you dont have anything to contradict, except for pacifying to the same excuse of 
*"official media did not report it"*

But even if it did, as always no amount of proof will be enough for u unless it comes from IBN live or times of india ... 



> A fighter is not a 4.5 gen fighter if it can produce 100kn of thrust *but on whether it's thrust to weight ratio is more than 1. *What I am telling that WS 10 is giving the similar thrust what the Russian engine was providing.
> 
> And talking about ego, dude atleast I can have ego because we are almost ready with LCA, a 4.5 gen aircraft, once we get F414 engine.
> 
> Talking about you, you r not in the race dude,a country which can't make a helicopter thinking about fighter planes.
> 
> So from next time if U have need to say anything, first understand what i need to say and then talk, that will make sense. Not simple ranting



WOW ... for the record with the *WS-10B gives in excess of 130 KN and with loaded weight rated at 13000 Kg(there is some disparity in loaded weight however considering the use of extensive composites in J-10B, weight would be reduced), it gives J-10 1 + T/W ratio which by your own standards makes it a 4.5 generation fighter jet* ... 

Full steam ahead for China's engine designs ~ ASIAN DEFENCE

Yes *"ALMOST"* is the key here because almost got the date of the IOC to 2014, never mind the FOC and then the R&D for a new version including a whole new engine,new avionics, integrating new weapons, structural changes... that all will take 3-4 days right  
ANd let me remind you, 



Anony said:


> @ abdulbarijan
> 
> 
> *WS 10:* Nice to know that WS 10 is integrated into J 10 for testing and that means in next two year it will be an operational engine. I considered that.




*So when will your 4.5 generation jet be operational considering you think its going to take two years for J-10 for a new engine (dont forget the details which i mentioned above and then answer )  
*
Yes ofcourse we are not in the race, thats why such an experienced analyst is on our pathetic forum getting his rear end kicked from one place to another and only has one thing to say, 
"you cant prove it " 
even after seeing photographed evidence, but its not proof cuz *"its a nightmare for you" *

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## Viper0011.

Anony said:


> @orangzaib: R u an idiot by birth or U love poking.
> 
> If U don't know, I would like to remind U that this thread is been opened to have a descriptive comparison between J 10, Mig 29k and N-LCA. From where have u brought the F22. Since U have poked in :
> 
> Look at the video of the reply no. 7 posted by sudhir007 where your own national media has something to say about F 22.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/60944-pak-fa-vs-f22-raptor-detailed-analasis.htmlhttp://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/60944-pak-fa-vs-f22-raptor-detailed-analasis.html
> 
> Abdul don't talk baseless. First comprehend properly what I said and then talk precisely.



The REASON why I brought F-22 into this thread was because one of your very smart countrymen posted FLIR pictures of the Rafale 'locking' onto the F-22. What a freaking joke. So, I had to come in and explain that when the half life of the drug taken before posting that FLIR picture was over, the reality was still that the F-22 taking down many of the top line jets before they can guess what hit them. 
NO Pakfa, J-20 or anything else can come closer to the technology being used in the F-22. There's a reason why it's about $ 200 mil a piece.

Every country can make 'Stealthy' jets. ONLY the US can make the F-22. That's the bottom line and you can trust it or try it. Wouldn't recommend sending a few of your SU-30's against the F-22....on the radio, it sounds something like 'Contact Lost'..in the middle of what otherwise would seem to be a normal flight. Then followed by a sharp beep and a dark radar screen.............

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## SQ8

orangzaib said:


> The REASON why I brought F-22 into this thread was because one of your very smart countrymen posted FLIR pictures of the Rafale 'locking' onto the F-22. What a freaking joke. So, I had to come in and explain that when the half life of the drug taken before posting that FLIR picture was over, the reality was still that the F-22 taking down many of the top line jets before they can guess what hit them.
> NO Pakfa, J-20 or anything else can come closer to the technology being used in the F-22. There's a reason why it's about $ 200 mil a piece.
> 
> Every country can make 'Stealthy' jets. ONLY the US can make the F-22. That's the bottom line and you can trust it or try it. Wouldn't recommend sending a few of your SU-30's against the F-22....on the radio, it sounds something like 'Contact Lost'..in the middle of what otherwise would seem to be a normal flight. Then followed by a sharp beep and a dark radar screen.............



Thats what they dont get.. from the raptor kills.. to the Chinese sub surfacing near the fleet "undetected".
The US military is underplayed what it has.. There is nothing out there, that will see or beat the raptor.

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## Viper0011.

Oscar said:


> Thats what they dont get.. from the raptor kills.. to the Chinese sub surfacing near the fleet "undetected".
> The US military is underplayed what it has.. There is nothing out there, that will see or beat the raptor.



Absolutely agreed. Just to make another point to folks getting excited over a friendly 'allowed' lock of a Rafale onto a F-22......you guys think that the US wasn't expecting the Russians or the Chinese to ever build stealthy jets???
The reality is (and it always bites, doesn't it  ) that the F-22 wasn't built for the SU-30 or Rafale or EFT (all 90's designs)....it was built for what would be coming by 2030 (manned, unmanned, or from the aliens) .....the US stays about 2 to 3 decades ahead of all military curves that can exist. THAT's a fact.

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## Safriz

^^ Sorry i disagree with you and Oscar.
Raptor was also designed in 90s based on a russian scientist's research,so it is not something ultra advanced or unique to USA.
Just expensive,and full of features which can be worked around im a cheaper way.


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## SQ8

Safriz said:


> ^^ Sorry i disagree with you and Oscar.
> Raptor was also designed in 90s based on a russian scientist's research,so it is not something ultra advanced or unique to USA.
> Just expensive,and full of features which can be worked around im a cheaper way.



Thats something.. 
the raptor was designed in the 90's.. but has features(and lots and lot of room for more of them) to tackle threats in the 2030's.
Its expensive because its breaking so many boundaries. 

Think of it this way, the F-15 is a product of the late sixties.. but it is still considered one of the deadliest things in the sky today. Had it remained the old 70's fighters.. it would have made sense. But continuous updates have kept it very very relevant.
What makes you believe that raptor(which has a lot more potential for upgrades) wont be then

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## Luftwaffe

Oscar said:


> Thats something..
> the raptor was designed in the 90's.. but has features(and lots and lot of room for more of them) to tackle threats in the 2030's. Its expensive because its breaking so many boundaries.
> 
> Think of it this way, the F-15 is a product of the late sixties.. but it is still considered one of the deadliest things in the sky today. Had it remained the old 70's fighters.. it would have made sense. But continuous updates have kept it very very relevant. What makes you believe that raptor(which has a lot more potential for upgrades) wont be then



That makes me Think of a flawed assumption *"There is nothing out there, that will see or beat the raptor." *, IF F-15 a product of 70s with many upgrades is deadly why should J-31/J-20 be underestimated and not be deadliest which are essentially the products of post 2000-2005 and also have alot more potential and room for upgrades to even challenge F-22 in the future after all technology and brains are not just limited to US. Anyway we need to get back to J-10/FC-20 Topic.

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## SQ8

Luftwaffe said:


> That makes me Think of a flawed assumption *"There is nothing out there, that will see or beat the raptor." *, IF F-15 a product of 70s with many upgrades is deadly why should J-31/J-20 be underestimated and not be deadliest which are essentially the products of post 2000-2005 and also have *alot more potential and room for upgrades* to even challenge F-22 in the future after all technology and brains are not just limited to US. Anyway we need to get back to J-10/FC-20 Topic.



Here's the basis behind that correct assumption of mine.
The F-22 is not just airframe.. its a powerhouse of electronic power that is yet unmatched. 
The F-22 doesnt just kill you because its stealthy or maneuverable.. it kills you because it can kill you silently.
The Level of technology, not just sophistication but reliability and responsiveness.. is what the Chinese or anyone for that matter have yet to master..and are ten to fifteen years from it.
What makes you think that the F-22 would not have moved on from where it is today, the F-22 of ten years down will be ten year ahead then. 
its just that simple.

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## BigDaddyWatch

Oscar said:


> Here's the basis behind that correct assumption of mine.
> The F-22 is not just airframe.. its a powerhouse of electronic power that is yet unmatched.
> The F-22 doesnt just kill you because its stealthy or maneuverable.. it kills you because it can kill you silently.
> The Level of technology, not just sophistication but reliability and responsiveness.. is what the Chinese or anyone for that matter have yet to master..and are ten to fifteen years from it.
> What makes you think that the F-22 would not have moved on from where it is today, the F-22 of ten years down will be ten year ahead then.
> its just that simple.



Don't exaggerate the F-22 fleet has been grounded multiple times because the O2 system on board is choking it's pilots.

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## rohailmalhi

orangzaib said:


> The REASON why I brought F-22 into this thread was because one of your very smart countrymen posted FLIR pictures of the Rafale 'locking' onto the F-22. What a freaking joke. So, I had to come in and explain that when the half life of the drug taken before posting that FLIR picture was over, the reality was still that the F-22 taking down many of the top line jets before they can guess what hit them.
> NO Pakfa, J-20 or anything else can come closer to the technology being used in the F-22. There's a reason why it's about $ 200 mil a piece.
> 
> Every country can make 'Stealthy' jets. ONLY the US can make the F-22. That's the bottom line and you can trust it or try it. Wouldn't recommend sending a few of your SU-30's against the F-22....on the radio, it sounds something like 'Contact Lost'..in the middle of what otherwise would seem to be a normal flight. Then followed by a sharp beep and a dark radar screen.............



I think that fact is more exaggerated than it actually is . Raptor is no doubt a great aircraft but saying that its an alien technology is simply BS.It has it edge over others but not like it completely in 4th dimension that no can knows what hitem. 

Now a days Weapon itself is not that important, its they simply how it is presented to create fear for it like its an alien spacecraft which no one in this world can see or know , it has technologies which never exsisted in this world and will never ever for decades .

Actually i think new 4.5 Gen fighters planes like typhoon , rafael e.t.c leave aside 5 GEN program by China and Russia, are capable enough to give raptor a tough time.

US is ahead of others but now world is catching up to them , its just a matter of time they get


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## Viper0011.

Luftwaffe said:


> That makes me Think of a flawed assumption *"There is nothing out there, that will see or beat the raptor." *, IF F-15 a product of 70s with many upgrades is deadly why should J-31/J-20 be underestimated and not be deadliest which are essentially the products of post 2000-2005 and also have alot more potential and room for upgrades to even challenge F-22 in the future after all technology and brains are not just limited to US. Anyway we need to get back to J-10/FC-20 Topic.



Guys - Raptor isn't one of the 'Russian' designs. Actually, it is a design based off of USAF's F-15 + more requirements from pilots, military users and technological superiority needs. The US designs and jet engineering is much different in principle than the Russians. Plus US made engines and airflow dynamics are built on entirely different design standards than the rest of the world. Trust me on this. 

Second, yes, the F-15 FINALLY saw competition in the form of SU-30 (jury is still out on 'how competitive') but both share similar capabilities (SU-30's design principles were created due to the success of F-14. With technology transfer or analysis coming from Iran and others. It's radar till date tracks 6 and fires on 6. Same like the f-14). So in 90's, the world was finally catching up to the American tech from the 60's. Internet was created in the 60's by the DoD/ DARPA. So the US always stays ahead militarily. That's just the purpose of the US MIC.

Last but not least, F-22.....we can go all night here and talk about the unknown. But, let's put it this way. NO ONE has been able to put a super computer in a miniaturized form into a jet. The F-22 has it and much more, things and sensors that are not even out there yet or are still beind used as proof of concepts. 
May be in the next 15-20 years, you'll truly see a match for the Raptor but the US military has already advanced from it....they are working on Hypersonic planes, etc. So imagine where they'll be in 20 years when the world will be coming up with a true Raptor counter....Raptor may be the most advanced jet in the US military's inventory, but the reality is, they are testing equipment for the generation after the Raptor. So in a way, Raptor's now old technology and concepts if you will.

Also, people here are right when they say that the tech and the brain power is not limited to the Americans. I copy that. BUT...CREATIVITY is. The US uses and brings the best brain power from across the globe..Israel, Russia, Germany, the UK, India, Pakistan, etc. If you look back since WWII.....the US's lead creativity across the globe. Sure, it'll change and the innovation will come / is coming from China, Israel, India, Russia, etc, etc. BUT....the American military industrial complex is STILL about two decades ahead of everyone else, IF not more. 

Anyway, I didn't mean to derail the topic. The F-22 came in when someone posted Rafale's picture (FLIR images) locking on to a F-22. There were statements made that portrayed the Rafale the next best thing since wrestling. So I wanted to correct that. Back to the topic.

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## SQ8

BigDaddyWatch said:


> Don't exaggerate the F-22 fleet has been grounded multiple times because the O2 system on board is choking it's pilots.



Its an O2 fault.. not electronic.
In any case, time to return to the J-10/FC-20 .. if it ever comes to the PAF.. but lets be wishful and discuss anyway.


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Here's the basis behind that correct assumption of mine.
> The F-22 is not just airframe.. its a powerhouse of electronic power that is yet unmatched.
> The F-22 doesnt just kill you because its stealthy or maneuverable.. it kills you because it can kill you silently.
> The Level of technology, not just sophistication but reliability and responsiveness.. is what the Chinese or anyone for that matter have yet to master..and are ten to fifteen years from it.
> What makes you think that the F-22 would not have moved on from where it is today, the F-22 of ten years down will be ten year ahead then.
> its just that simple.




Oscar,

F-22 will remain the most potent platform for some time. However, Europeans have all the tech and know-how to make a jet as expensive as F-22, but why would they need to?

I mean, you say that F-22 was designed to face threats in 2030s? Right? I mean 2030 would be a different world to live in. F-22 is designed not to fight F-15s or F-16s but the newer class of jets. So when it is pitted against, say J-20 or T-50, do you really think in 2 decades time US would have balls to go and shoot down a j-20? We all saw what happened in the Hainan Island incident.

To be honest, tell me one advanced or strong country that the USA has been able give a bloody nose? In the past 50 years USA has faced off developing, third world. Big deal eh?

What happens when they deal with someone not so easy? I mean, F-22 dropping bombs on Iran, big deal? F-15 can do that as well.

I mean they can shoot down PAF or IAF jets, but seriously? Will USA risk shooting down and the consequences that come from China or Russia? In the near future F-22s will just patrol the skies because there is no competition for them. And when the competition does come, it would be useless because it would facing an equal adversary, by which point F-22 become irrelevent.


You have no idea how much the East Asians have been studying with regards to Electronics and Engineering in the West. When they go back home, they take all the knowledge with them. There are number of Scholarships and Programmes funded by the Chinese government at Top Engineering schools worldwide. They send their citizens, they learn and they go back.

Trust me, as much as i love F-22, the reality is, in a decade or two it would irrelevant at such a shocking pace, to both you and the USAF.


This is no longer 1960s/70s USA vs the East. This is 21st century. Who saw J-20 or J-31 coming? No one.

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## Donatello

orangzaib said:


> Guys - Raptor isn't one of the 'Russian' designs. Actually, it is a design based off of USAF's F-15 + more requirements from pilots, military users and technological superiority needs. The US designs and jet engineering is much different in principle than the Russians. Plus US made engines and airflow dynamics are built on entirely different design standards than the rest of the world. Trust me on this.
> 
> Second, yes, the F-15 FINALLY saw competition in the form of SU-30 (jury is still out on 'how competitive') but both share similar capabilities (SU-30's design principles were created due to the success of F-14. With technology transfer or analysis coming from Iran and others. It's radar till date tracks 6 and fires on 6. Same like the f-14). So in 90's, the world was finally catching up to the American tech from the 60's. Internet was created in the 60's by the DoD/ DARPA. So the US always stays ahead militarily. That's just the purpose of the US MIC.
> 
> Last but not least, F-22.....we can go all night here and talk about the unknown. But, let's put it this way. NO ONE has been able to put a super computer in a miniaturized form into a jet. The F-22 has it and much more, things and sensors that are not even out there yet or are still beind used as proof of concepts.
> May be in the next 15-20 years, you'll truly see a match for the Raptor but the US military has already advanced from it....they are working on Hypersonic planes, etc. So imagine where they'll be in 20 years when the world will be coming up with a true Raptor counter....Raptor may be the most advanced jet in the US military's inventory, but the reality is, they are testing equipment for the generation after the Raptor. So in a way, Raptor's now old technology and concepts if you will.
> 
> Also, people here are right when they say that the tech and the brain power is not limited to the Americans. I copy that. BUT...CREATIVITY is. The US uses and brings the best brain power from across the globe..Israel, Russia, Germany, the UK, India, Pakistan, etc. If you look back since WWII.....the US's lead creativity across the globe. Sure, it'll change and the innovation will come / is coming from China, Israel, India, Russia, etc, etc. BUT....the American military industrial complex is *STILL about two decades ahead of everyone else, IF not more. *
> 
> Anyway, I didn't mean to derail the topic. The F-22 came in when someone posted Rafale's picture (FLIR images) locking on to a F-22. There were statements made that portrayed the Rafale the next best thing since wrestling. So I wanted to correct that. Back to the topic.




2 Decades? But shrinking extremely fast.

Go to Chinese Defense sub-forum on this PDF. Then go to the PLAN discussion thread. Go from page 1 to where it is now. See, the amount of ships and the tech they have produced?

I was shocked! Give China another 10 years at 6-8% GDP growth, and you'd be looking at a different world.


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## Safriz

www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/218694-f-22-raptor-thread.html#post3594122


Please continue the Raptor discussion in this thread.


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## Luftwaffe

Thankyou Safriz, Just one more post before coming back to J-10/FC-20 Thread.

Oscar; I do have the Answer for it but the Thread is J-10/FC-20, Perhaps you might have read F-22 Pilots and Engineers have pointed out a number of problems with F-22 which renders your inflated claims of reliability and responsiveness i'll dig the Article that talks of responsiveness problems explained by an Elite F-22 pilot. Anyone would be fool to assume Chinese are sitting ducks After US, China is now the second largest nation in terms of R&D spending. WWII during-post is a prime example Nations excelled.
Air Force Pilots Blow The Whistle On F-22 Raptor's Mysterious, And Dangerous, Flaw


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## Viper0011.

Luftwaffe said:


> Thankyou Safriz, Just one more post before coming back to J-10/FC-20 Thread.
> 
> Oscar; I do have the Answer for it but the Thread is J-10/FC-20, Perhaps you might have read F-22 Pilots and Engineers have pointed out a number of problems with F-22 which renders your inflated claims of reliability and responsiveness i'll dig the Article that talks of responsiveness problems explained by an Elite F-22 pilot. Anyone would be fool to assume Chinese are sitting ducks After US, China is now the second largest nation in terms of R&D spending. WWII during-post is a prime example Nations excelled.
> Air Force Pilots Blow The Whistle On F-22 Raptor's Mysterious, And Dangerous, Flaw



So I should get one more shot at it too (I feel like I am part of our presidential debate that happened a while ago). No one said the Chinese or the Russians or the Israelis can't produce quality tech. The point was, SO FAR, the US's owned it. No doubt that the Chinese, the Israelis, the Russians and the French are coming along quickly now that the technology has become a commodity. So sure, innovation will happen everywhere.
As far as 'problems' in the F-22. Sure, I know about them too and everyone who reads yahoo or cnn knows about those too. However, just like 25000 people signed a petition to be a separate state and people jumped on the 'civil war' conclusion in America on this forum, doesn't mean that these 'problems' are so 'massive' that the plane can't function. The Oxygen issue was big and even that wasn't in ALL jets. As a security precaution, the US military would ground the whole fleet. But, the point is, Oxygen or an issue here and there, doesn't downgrade this plane to F-16. It is Still the f-22 and offers the capability it's designed for. As it becomes combat proven, the flaws will be ironed out. For the first few years, the pilots flying F-14 were restricted with speed and maneuvers. So is the case with F-22, Rafale, PakFa, JFT, F-15, Su-30 and everything else. 

Anyway, does anyone know FC-20's radar's maximum track and lock capability (in the new AESA)?? Also, what's the full load of BVRs and WVR's it can carry? Thanks


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## krash

Oh look a J-10B!







come back guys.

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## Alfa-Fighter

ringmaster said:


> if u consider su 30 a 4.5 gen then chinese have got plenty of these so they can compare the perfomance of both the aircrafts



SU-30MKI can have 360 Degree Radar coverage plus, so that SU-30MKI pilot can lock on Chasing plane and fire missile without turning back. 

buddy to buddy radar sharing, all SU-30 Planes can see though very long distance though radars of other plane....this is called 4.5 gen features... like one SU-30 is 150 KM behind other or side by side then behind one can use other SU-30 Radar to look forward .

Are some of very advance features.


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## Viper0011.

Alfa-Fighter said:


> SU-30MKI can have 360 Degree Radar coverage plus, so that SU-30MKI pilot can lock on Chasing plane and fire missile without turning back.
> 
> buddy to buddy radar sharing, all SU-30 Planes can see though very long distance though radars of other plane....this is called 4.5 gen features... like one SU-30 is 150 KM behind other or side by side then behind one can use other SU-30 Radar to look forward .
> Are some of very advance features.



Just some correction. the SU-30 does NOT have the rear end 360 degree coverage. Ask someone who's flown one or someone who knows the good, the bads and the ugly's of this plane. BUT, it does have a massive radar that's long range, great speed and agility and massive weapons carrying capacity. But also a huge rcs.

On the other end, the American F-16's (b 40) have had the radar and data sharing capability since the 90's. Its nothing new. heck, f-16 1 can allow f 16 2 to target his target that he may have a lock on by sharing the AAM mode with the other jet. So this one capability is irrelevant

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## [--Leo--]

Alfa-Fighter said:


> SU-30MKI can have 360 Degree Radar coverage plus, so that SU-30MKI pilot can lock on Chasing plane and fire missile without turning back.
> 
> buddy to buddy radar sharing, all SU-30 Planes can see though very long distance though radars of other plane....this is called 4.5 gen features... like one SU-30 is 150 KM behind other or side by side then behind one can use other SU-30 Radar to look forward .
> 
> Are some of very advance features.



can you explain this how su-30mki do that?please coz i see this feature only in the F-35


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> Thats what they dont get.. from the raptor kills.. to the Chinese sub surfacing near the fleet "undetected".
> The US military is underplayed what it has.. There is nothing out there, that will see or beat the raptor.



I disagree Oscar, it's not like the US is the only country in the world that is developing high class weapon systems, they just SPEND the highest ammount of money to develop them and that's why we see more and more modern weapons in their military, but not necessarily the best.
That is one reason why US older Teen series are still considered to be deadly machines, because they will be constantly upgraded, unlike Russian fighter designs for example. But even these upgraded Teens don't hold their own against modern 4.5 gen fighters like the Eurocanards, or modern Flankers and now think about large numbers of stealth fighters with similar advantages in stealth, but possibly better performance. As soon as the stealth advantage is not that clear anymore the performance of the fighters will be important again and that's where the US might get problems with their F35s.

Our US friend tries to downplay the exercises against Rafale and EF, but the reality is, that the results were just one of a chain of similar results against nearly all US fighters. EF and Rafale proved to be superior in Air combats and the F22 exercises showed, how maneuverable they are in close combats.
There is no doubt that the F22 will remain superior, but why? Because of it's advantages in BVR ranges, if any enemy gets into close combat range, it could be even in disadvantage and since modern 4.5 gen fighters often come with features the F22 doesn't have (canards, 3D TVC, high maneuverable IR missiles, HMS), it's not surprising that the US now wants to upgrade the F22 in this regard and we are talking about the most maneuverable US fighter here!
In terms of technology Israelis, Europeans and even Russians offers several products that are superior as well, but they can't spend as much money as the US, one reason why Europeans simply joint F35s instead of developing an own one and some of them already regret it. 
Btw, the Chinese subs wasn't the only one that were able to follow US carriers in close distance undetected, which also shows how technology is changing things, because AIP propulsion for example increases the capability even for smaller subs by far.

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## mjnaushad

Anony said:


> *@orangzaib: R u an idiot by birth or U love poking.
> *
> If U don't know, I would like to remind U that this thread is been opened to have a descriptive comparison between J 10, Mig 29k and N-LCA. From where have u brought the F22. Since U have poked in :
> 
> Look at the video of the reply no. 7 posted by sudhir007 where your own national media has something to say about F 22.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/60944-pak-fa-vs-f22-raptor-detailed-analasis.htmlhttp://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/60944-pak-fa-vs-f22-raptor-detailed-analasis.html
> 
> Abdul don't talk baseless. First comprehend properly what I said and then talk precisely.
> 
> I am not bringing LCA and neither comparing it with J 10, I am only saying that AESA radar has not been fitted on J 10 nose. It's still under development. If U have any personal problem to accept an example of LCA then take Gripen's example, where again AESA radar is under development or trial not integrated and tested.
> And yes nowhere it was stated that AESA radar has been integrated to J 10, it was written J 10b is going to have AESA radar.
> 
> Whether J 10 can lock on SU 30 or F 22 that is not the question, the question is the proof which U have failed to provide.
> 
> A fighter is not a 4.5 gen fighter if it can produce 100kn of thrust but on whether it's thrust to weight ratio is more than 1. What I am telling that WS 10 is giving the similar thrust what the Russian engine was providing.
> 
> And talking about ego, dude atleast I can have ego because we are almost ready with LCA, a 4.5 gen aircraft, once we get F414 engine.
> 
> Talking about you, you r not in the race dude,a country which can't make a helicopter thinking about fighter planes.
> 
> So from next time if U have need to say anything, first understand what i need to say and then talk, that will make sense. Not simple ranting



you must have lot of information about aircrafts....now spend some time in "Manners of talking" ....


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## Alfa-Fighter

orangzaib said:


> Just some correction. the SU-30 does NOT have the rear end 360 degree coverage. Ask someone who's flown one or someone who knows the good, the bads and the ugly's of this plane. BUT, it does have a massive radar that's long range, great speed and agility and massive weapons carrying capacity. But also a huge rcs.
> 
> On the other end, the American F-16's (b 40) have had the radar and data sharing capability since the 90's. Its nothing new. heck, f-16 1 can allow f 16 2 to target his target that he may have a lock on by sharing the AAM mode with the other jet. So this one capability is irrelevant



The Su-30MKI version was designed for India. The forward facing NIIP N011M Bars (Panther) is a powerful integrated Passive Electronically Scanned Array [PESA] radar. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar. The N011M can function in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneously while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial or GPS navigation system. It is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system as well as anti-jamming features. N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and *60 km in the rear hemisphere*. The radar can track 15 air targets and engage the 4 most dangerous simultaneously. These targets can even include cruise missiles and motionless helicopters. The Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft. *The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to at least 4 other aircraft. *The radar can detect ground targets such as tanks at 40-50 km. It is speculated that the passive phased array Radar Irbis-E may be added to the fighter jet by 2010, when the first totally Indian-built Su-30MKI will roll out from HAL Nasik.

I think you are living past and self denial they no one else cant do and have it.......

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/su-30.htm


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## mylovepakistan

agree with sancho,
nothing is predictable when it comes to WVR,
and F-22 raptor is NO exception here...

Farnborough 2012: &#8220;Yesterday we had Raptor salad for lunch&#8221; Typhoon pilot said after dogfighting with the F-22 at Red Flag Alaska « The Aviationist


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## Viper0011.

mylovepakistan said:


> agree with sancho,
> nothing is predictable when it comes to WVR,
> and F-22 raptor is NO exception here...
> 
> Farnborough 2012: &#8220;Yesterday we had Raptor salad for lunch&#8221; Typhoon pilot said after dogfighting with the F-22 at Red Flag Alaska « The Aviationist



Guys - you keep missing the point....the F-22 is NOT designed for a dog fight or within the WVR. You'll never see it getting down to dog fights. That's why we have the F-15, F-16, F-18's, F-35s for. Raptor has a specialized purpose and since no one knows the doctrine, the topic is open for anyone or everyone. You don't put a $ 200 mil plane in a situation that the best marksman or gunner can shoot it. That's a silly idea.
The missiles it uses for WVR are still low range BVRs. It will never come to the dog fighting mode as it's job is different. These links to Typhoon having 'Raptor salad' and Rafale showing FLIR image is all because of friendly exercises that are allowed to see Raptor this close. In fact, the Germans also said that the Raptor has 'unprecedented' capabilities even at WVR. Anyway, I am done explaining as folks here are adamant about the unknown. One example is, in WVR.....your RADAR locks onto the enemy plane so EVERYTHING depends on the Radar or in some cases on the FLIR. Now if your Radar waves or the IR waves were scrambled in a way that the returning image is really 500 meters away from the actual aircraft (and the Raptor doesn't have a strong heat signature).....and that's what you are locking on to...a shadow....who are you really killing? It aint going to be the Raptor. You just fired at a Ghost. There is a reason why this plane will NOT be sold / shared even with the Europeans, Israelis and the Japs. Smart people can draw the conclusion from this statement !!! So I end my last post about the Raptor here. 



Alfa-Fighter said:


> The Su-30MKI version was designed for India. The forward facing NIIP N011M Bars (Panther) is a powerful integrated Passive Electronically Scanned Array [PESA] radar. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar. The N011M can function in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneously while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial or GPS navigation system. It is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system as well as anti-jamming features. N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and *60 km in the rear hemisphere*. The radar can track 15 air targets and engage the 4 most dangerous simultaneously. These targets can even include cruise missiles and motionless helicopters. The Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft. *The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to at least 4 other aircraft. *The radar can detect ground targets such as tanks at 40-50 km. It is speculated that the passive phased array Radar Irbis-E may be added to the fighter jet by 2010, when the first totally Indian-built Su-30MKI will roll out from HAL Nasik.
> 
> I think you are living past and self denial they no one else cant do and have it.......
> 
> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/su-30.htm



All the above is known before. Target sharing is something that the introduction of F-16C was doing. And yes, SU-30 is a great plane but it has gaps in coverage. Trust me. Read up on the showdown at Nellis!!

Back to FC-20. Does anyone knows the capabilities of the AESA mounted on it? Range, track and lock capability? etc?


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## Alfa-Fighter

[--Leo--];3594433 said:


> can you explain this how su-30mki do that?please coz i see this feature only in the F-35



Russian designers have stated that they believe that the key to dogfight supremacy rests in the pilot's ability to engage the enemy in any position relative to their own aircraft. While TVC permits post-stall maneuvering and pointing which are impossible in conventional aircraft, *they are convinced that a rearward facing radar and missiles that can be fired in the aft-quadrant all join to make an unbeatable integrated weapons system.*

I think SU30 MKI is as advance as F35 is
The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena


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## Alfa-Fighter

orangzaib said:


> All the above is known before. Target sharing is something that the introduction of F-16C was doing. And yes, SU-30 is a great plane but it has gaps in coverage. Trust me. Read up on the showdown at Nellis!!
> 
> Back to FC-20. Does anyone knows the capabilities of the AESA mounted on it? Range, track and lock capability? etc?



Well , proved 
1) Rear Facing Radar , hence 360 Degree Coverage ( You proved Wrong , it has rear facing radar)
2) Buddy to Buddy Target Sharing ( this is what i have told you, so two plane came make 600 KM coverage
3) Rear Target Accusation and firing,


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## mylovepakistan

orangzaib said:


> Guys - you keep missing the point....the F-22 is NOT designed for a dog fight or within the WVR. You'll never see it getting down to dog fights. That's why we have the F-15, F-16, F-18's, F-35s for. Raptor has a specialized purpose and since no one knows the doctrine, the topic is open for anyone or everyone. You don't put a $ 200 mil plane in a situation that the best marksman or gunner can shoot it. That's a silly idea.
> The missiles it uses for WVR are still low range BVRs. It will never come to the dog fighting mode as it's job is different. These links to Typhoon having 'Raptor salad' and Rafale showing FLIR image is all because of friendly exercises that are allowed to see Raptor this close. In fact, the Germans also said that the Raptor has 'unprecedented' capabilities even at WVR. Anyway, I am done explaining as folks here are adamant about the unknown. One example is, in WVR.....your RADAR locks onto the enemy plane so EVERYTHING depends on the Radar or in some cases on the FLIR. Now if your Radar waves or the IR waves were scrambled in a way that the returning image is really 500 meters away from the actual aircraft (and the Raptor doesn't have a strong heat signature).....and that's what you are locking on to...a shadow....who are you really killing? It aint going to be the Raptor. You just fired at a Ghost. There is a reason why this plane will NOT be sold / shared even with the Europeans, Israelis and the Japs. Smart people can draw the conclusion from this statement !!! So I end my last post about the Raptor here.



i understand what you are trying to say...US has a plenty of other 4.5 gen jets to thwart any threat...
however,if you give a full read to what the link says...you will find out



> Obviously, U.S. fighter pilots could argue that, flying a stealthy plane they will never need to engage an enemy in WVR dogfight, proving that, as already explained several times, kills and HUD captures scored during air combat training are not particularly interesting unless the actual Rules Of Engagement (ROE) and the training scenario are known.
> 
> However, not all the modern and future scenarios envisage BVR (Beyond Visual Range) engagements and the risk of coming to close range 1 vs 1 (or 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 etc) is still high, especially considered that the F-22 currently uses AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles, whose maximum range is around 100 km (below the Meteor missile used by the Typhoon).
> 
> Moreover, at a distance of about 50 km the Typhoon IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) system is capable to find even a stealthy plane &#8220;especially if it is large and hot, like the F-22&#8243; a Eurofighter pilot said.



and offcourse a raptor's pilot wont launch the AMRAAM at max. range...

so even if eurofighter manages to spot a raptor at 40-50 km...it can still score a kill..i know raptor has a hell of a lot of electronic counter measures capabilities..but still not an invincible plane...

anyways i think we should come back to J-10...enough of this now...


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## tony singh

All the above is known before. Target sharing is something that the introduction of F-16C was doing. And yes, SU-30 is a great plane but it has gaps in coverage. Trust me. Read up on the showdown at Nellis!!

Back to FC-20. Does anyone knows the capabilities of the AESA mounted on it? Range, track and lock capability? etc?[/QUOTE]



At Nellis the Bars radar was not even switched on and the pilots had a high rate of friendly fire as they were not linked up with other AWACS


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## HeinzG

mylovepakistan said:


> and offcourse a raptor's pilot wont launch the AMRAAM at max. distance...
> 
> so even if eurofighter manages to spot a raptor at 40-50 km...it can still score a kill..
> i know raptor has a hell alot electronic counter measures capability..but still not an invincible plane...



Yes. Raptor pilot will not launch a BVR missile in its maximum range, rather he will launch it within 70-50km range, well away from enemy detection (if possible) but within a range to alert the enemy pilot, so the enemy pilot will execute a defensive maneuver. The modern interpretation for the BVR missile shot is making the enemy go defensive.

Anyways IMO dogfight with Raptor and Euro fighter will probably end in a stalemate.


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## batmannow

HeinzG said:


> Yes. Raptor pilot will not launch a BVR missile in its maximum range, rather he will launch it within 70-50km range, well away from enemy detection (if possible) but within a range to alert the enemy pilot, so the enemy pilot will execute a defensive maneuver. The modern interpretation for the BVR missile shot is making the enemy go defensive.
> 
> Anyways IMO dogfight with Raptor and Euro fighter will probably end in a stalemate.





*Lets all keep in mind that the F22 has yet to see a day in combat, that the F15, F16, And F18 have never faced a foe that was not old Soviet technology and inferior trained pilots. Some might point to the few times a Mig 29 has been encountered, but I would add that those Mig 29s were not the top of the line models, but were cheaper "monkey" models. Is the F15 awesome? yes. why? Because #1 Pilot training. #2 a support structure including command and control, maintenance staff, etc, the likes of which no nation can compare (or afford). #3 A flexible, conventional twin engine design that allowed for much growth and development. I would prefer to compare apples with apples. Could an F15 by itself in an even one on one DOGFIGHT against a top of the line Russian piloted Su 30 still come out on top? IMHO it would be a draw. The USAF pilots are better trained and have more flight time, but the Su 30 is by far the most maneuverable fighter in service, and is far better equipped with phased array radars and target acquisition gear than the F15. And the F15 is experiencing what ALL fighters late in their careers do, creeping weight growth and with it decline in performance. Bottom line is the USAF is like the NY Yankees, they spend more money than anybody else. But that does not always equal a win.*

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## sancho

orangzaib said:


> Guys - you keep missing the point....the F-22 is NOT designed for a dog fight or within the WVR. You'll never see it getting down to dog fights. That's why we have the F-15, F-16, F-18's, F-35s for.



Wrong, it is designed for air combats, including WVR combats, that's why it was designed to be very maneuverable as well, just like it carries WVR missiles. But the design is not the most maneuverable anymore, the missiles are not up to date anymore, it has no HMS...
The F35 on the other hand has latest missiles and HMS, but was designed for BVR and strikes only, maneuverability is not important and even it's self defence missiles in strike roles are BVR missiles, not WVR missiles. The US air combat policy has simply changed to focus on BVR combat tactics, missiles and electronics, instead of performance of the fighter itself. That's why you soon will have F18SH and F35s bomb trucks in high numbers, instead of F15 and F16 like in the past. 

To scare Russia or China with large numbers of Mig 21s and old gen fighters, a few F22 and F117 was more than enough, but a China that soon will have huge numbers of modern 4th and 4.5 gen fighters + high numbers of 5th gen fighters as well, won't be scared to take you on in BVR and WVR combats.

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## Donatello

sancho said:


> Wrong, it is designed for air combats, including WVR combats, that's why it was designed to be very maneuverable as well, just like it carries WVR missiles. But the design is not the most maneuverable anymore, the missiles are not up to date anymore, it has no HMS...
> The F35 on the other hand has latest missiles and HMS, but was designed for BVR and strikes only, maneuverability is not important and even it's self defence missiles in strike roles are BVR missiles, not WVR missiles. The US air combat policy has simply changed to focus on BVR combat tactics, missiles and electronics, instead of performance of the fighter itself. That's why you soon will have F18SH and F35s bomb trucks in high numbers, instead of F15 and F16 like in the past.
> 
> To scare Russia or China with large numbers of Mig 21s and old gen fighters, a few F22 and F117 was more than enough, but a China that soon will have huge numbers of modern 4th and 4.5 gen fighters + high numbers of 5th gen fighters as well, won't be scared to take you on in BVR and WVR combats.




That's what i have been saying. This is no longer the China of 1970s. This is 2012. There is a limit to what the USA can do.

Remember Remember the Hainan island incident. That was 10 years ago.

Duh!


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## Viper0011.

mylovepakistan said:


> Moreover, at a distance of about 50 km the Typhoon IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) system is capable to find even a stealthy plane &#8220;especially if it is large and hot, like the F-22? a Eurofighter pilot said.
> and offcourse a raptor's pilot wont launch the AMRAAM at max. range...
> 
> so even if eurofighter manages to spot a raptor at 40-50 km...it can still score a kill..i know raptor has a hell of a lot of electronic counter measures capabilities..but still not an invincible plane...
> 
> anyways i think we should come back to J-10...enough of this now... .



You know, as MUCH as I would like to get away from F-22 discussion on an irrelevant thread....I find myself STILL responding to things that I already have. Go back to my posts and see that I've already talked about the IRIST and FLIR issue and F-22 lock from 50 Km and below. 
Raptor doesn't come to this distance by design. This was a 'friendly and allowed' instance. Raptor takes care of work way before the WVR limit (advance WVR missiles will start to go out to 50 KM soon due to IRIST and FLIR). So I consider this WVR range. 
Next thing, you think AMRAAM 120 D and E have the maximum range of 50KM???? I rest my case. 
Next, why on the planet would you put a $ 200 mil plane in dog fights where you only need agility and a good gunner for the sake of discussion.......$ 200 mil for a dog fight is similar to putting $ 200 mil in a dumpster putting oil on it and trying to see it the money gets burned or not. Just use common sense guys. 
Let's please switch back to the topic.


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## Viper0011.

sancho said:


> Wrong, it is designed for air combats, including WVR combats, that's why it was designed to be very maneuverable as well, just like it carries WVR missiles. But the design is not the most maneuverable anymore, the missiles are not up to date anymore, it has no HMS...
> The F35 on the other hand has latest missiles and HMS, but was designed for BVR and strikes only, maneuverability is not important and even it's self defence missiles in strike roles are BVR missiles, not WVR missiles.



All I can say is...WOW. So you've called me incorrect and all the other waste of time in the story above. But .....have you ever thought that the Raptors have ONLY been produced around 200 in quantity.....??? Read these two lines and then your story about four times. Something will become VERY obvious. Raptor isn't your F-15. It's got a strategic purpose......(yes, air superiority is one of them but it has a strategic role than being your F-15, F-16, F-18, F-35). It will NEVER be produced over a very few hundred. It is a wild card to maintain control over all adverse situations. NOT use it as a daily workhorse of the USAF like the F-15, F-16 and future F-35 will be.... 
If the above doesn't make sense.....than you should live with your imagination. I won't respond to any Raptor posts anymore as this is not the thread for it.

Oscar seems to be the only person besides a few of my American brethren who has a grasp of the real role Raptor plays. He wrote a few posts and they were all informative.


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## SBD-3

sancho said:


> Wrong, it is designed for air combats, including WVR combats, that's why it was designed to be very maneuverable as well, just like it carries WVR missiles. But the design is not the most maneuverable anymore, the missiles are not up to date anymore, it has no HMS...
> The F35 on the other hand has latest missiles and HMS, but was designed for BVR and strikes only, maneuverability is not important and even it's self defence missiles in strike roles are BVR missiles, not WVR missiles. The US air combat policy has simply changed to focus on BVR combat tactics, missiles and electronics, instead of performance of the fighter itself. That's why you soon will have F18SH and F35s bomb trucks in high numbers, instead of F15 and F16 like in the past.
> 
> To scare Russia or China with large numbers of Mig 21s and old gen fighters, a few F22 and F117 was more than enough, but a China that soon will have huge numbers of modern 4th and 4.5 gen fighters + high numbers of 5th gen fighters as well, won't be scared to take you on in BVR and WVR combats.



Of course it is, but for F-22 Dogfight is a more like a doomsday scenario. F-22 is more like an air sniper, take a shot and hide for another one. Though I always acknowledge impressive chinese developments in aviation, you never know what US has up her sleeves. If you think US military development is transparant and she doesn't keep them secret, think again. To date, we dont even know the complete capabilities of F-22A which has been in service for a dacade now.

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## Kompromat

F22 is not the title. No more Raptor debates please.


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## rockstarIN

> Originally Posted by mylovepakistan View Post
> Moreover, at a distance of about 50 km the Typhoon IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) system is capable to find even a stealthy plane &#8220;especially if it is large and hot, like the F-22? a Eurofighter pilot said.
> and offcourse a raptor's pilot wont launch the AMRAAM at max. range...
> 
> so even if eurofighter manages to spot a raptor at 40-50 km...it can still score a kill..i know raptor has a hell of a lot of electronic counter measures capabilities..but still not an invincible plane...
> 
> anyways i think we should come back to J-10...enough of this now... .



What ever you said is correct, EF can find out the F-22 using their IRST in 40-50 kms, same case with rafale. 

But what F-22 is capable of 'seeing' these EFs and Rafales much before they see F-22 and the F-22 pilot go to such a position (altitude, approach), where EFs&Rafale passive capability does not reach/search.(these capabilities are not 360 degree search off course).

I think this may be the reason why IAF asking for 360 degree coverage for FGFA.


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## Viper0011.

rockstar said:


> What ever you said is correct, EF can find out the F-22 using their IRST in 40-50 kms, same case with rafale.
> But what F-22 is capable of 'seeing' these EFs and Rafales much before they see F-22 and the F-22 pilot go to such a position (altitude, approach), where EFs&Rafale passive capability does not reach/search.(these capabilities are not 360 degree search off course).
> I think this may be the reason why IAF asking for 360 degree coverage for FGFA.



Invalid argument. 360 degree view is for situational awareness. If there is no situation (Raptor), how could there be awareness. This would help if there was an F-15 or F-16 behind FGFA.....read my post above as the answer to the same post you were responding to. You'll understand the point I was making here. Max range for BVRs used by Raptor is MUCH more than 50 KM!!

And what makes people guess Raptor is NOT combat proven...... to the Raptor's world. You'll never see any details of any missions. It may have done Cobra maneuvers at night on top of your rooftop...but it'll never come in the news... the radars can't see them. Raptors were stationed in Iraq. You guys really believe that the US is spending $ 200 million per plain to stay within the 'friendly' skies and for routine takeoff and landings....when they've sent Sentinel UAV's to spy on Iran and that's only worth a few millions vs. the cost of Raptors? What makes you think Raptor hasn't been on a night mission to penetrate Iran's air deference, or China's, or India's or Saudi Arabia's? NO ONE CAN DETECT IT = NO COMBAT MISSION

Anyway, the above's the last post on Raptor from my end. I would hate to get yelled at from a moderator. So far, I have been good. SO NO MORE Raptor talk. Just like you guys think Raptor's not combat proven, we'll act like the previous discussion didn't happen 

Could someone PLEASE tell me the specs for FC-20's AESA? I am particularly interested in its scanning, tracking and locking capability with the BVRS. Thank you.


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## fatman17

*Developments at Chengdu:*

A while ago, I read about how Chengdu AC is now employing a whole new generation of engineers that learnt the entire fighter development process from J-10 project. This group of engineers has since developed JF-17 and J-10B. They are now the brains behind J-20, numerous new J-10 variants and UAV projects. I think they have also recruited foreign engineers (especially from Russia and Ukraine) that have really contributed in all the military projects. These companies are paying increasingly competitive wages to recruit capable engineers and employing modern Western design practices. 20 years ago, one would question whether or not China can actually develop a 4th generation fighter jet let alone a 5th generation fighter jet even if they received all of the necessary funding. With the experience from J-10 project, JH-7A project and indigenization of J-11 project, they now have the capability to develop modern fighter jet if given time and money. In comparison, Russia will be increasingly facing the question of whether or not it can develop modern aircraft due to a dwindling and aging engineering force from 20 years of brain drain. In the export market, Russia is still reliant on upgraded versions of flanker and fulcrum series of aircraft for most of revenues. With T-50 still years away from being available for export outside of India, Su-35 and Mig-35 are what Russia will be able to offer for its traditional markets. Once J-10 finally starts using domestic engine, China will be able to offer J-10 and JF-17 to compete against Russia in those markets. From the recent test flights, it looks J-31 will be available for export as F-60 not that far after T-50 becomes available. Until then, J-10B, future JF-17s and Chinese UAVs will be competitive against Russian exports. By the time J-31 becomes available, China will have something capable of taking serious market shares in the very lucrative fighter jet market. This has already happened to a degree in the naval export market, where the rapidly improving quality of PLAN ships have let to more capable ships available for exports. Chinese shipyards have been quite busy building smaller battle ships, FACs and OPVs for countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Thailand and African countries.

There are still many lingering questions about China&#8217;s aerospace engine industry. As we saw, J-31 made its first flight with RD-93 engines which are clearly not intended to fit the production versions of J-31. All of J-10A and JF-17 production aircraft are equipped with Russian engines. The first batch of Y-20 and H-6K will be equipped D-30KP2. However, it looks like FWS-10/A mass production has finally reached reliable stage. All of the recent batches of J-11B/S have been using FWS-10. J-15, J-15S, J-16 and J-20 prototypes have also been using FWS-10. In a recent photo, *it looks like the first production J-10B* may also be using FWS-10A. If that is the case, the majority of front line Chinese aircraft will soon be using Chinese engines instead of Russian ones.

Posted by Feng 

is there a 'opening ' for PAF?

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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> *Developments at Chengdu:*
> However, it looks like FWS-10/A mass production has finally reached reliable stage. All of the recent batches of J-11B/S have been using FWS-10. J-15, J-15S, J-16 and J-20 prototypes have also been using FWS-10. In a recent photo, *it looks like the first production J-10B* may also be using FWS-10A. If that is the case, the majority of front line Chinese aircraft will soon be using Chinese engines instead of Russian ones[/U].
> 
> Posted by Feng
> 
> is there a 'opening ' for PAF?


It was clearly Al-31FN (which China had negotiated with Russia just a while ago), we may probably see WS-10A/B powered J-10B somewhere around 2015 or may be later. Even AVIC's actions (Mergers,JVs and MoUs with Industry/University) depict that engine industry is still striving for maturity which will take its due time.


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## fatman17

hasnain0099 said:


> *It was clearly Al-31FN (which China had negotiated with Russia just a while ago), *we may probably see WS-10A/B powered J-10B somewhere around 2015 or may be later. Even AVIC's actions (Mergers,JVs and MoUs with Industry/University) depict that engine industry is still striving for maturity which will take its due time.



how? - or are u alluding to the fact that the FWS-10A is a locally manufactured chinese copy of the AL-31FN?. even that is ok.


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## Dazzler

fatman17 said:


> how? - or are u alluding to the fact that the FWS-10A is a locally manufactured chinese copy of the AL-31FN?. even that is ok.



Both are different contrary to popular belief, WS-10 has its roots in CMF 256 engine core type, not in AL-XX series, thrust, FADEC, Crystal blade technology used, Mean Time Between Overhaul, all are different. Even external dimensions are different.


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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> how? - or are u alluding to the fact that the FWS-10A is a locally manufactured chinese copy of the AL-31FN?. even that is ok.


What i ment that the engine on latest J-10B prototype pictured few days ago (which is also rumored to be the first commercial model) resembles more to AL-31FN rather than WS-10X, in contrast with the claims of it using the WS-10. My point was that efforts of AVIC to defeat the limitation of high performance aviation engines are an indication that engine development programs are yet to mature. I didn't say that WS-10 is a copy of AL-31FN but keeping in view China's recent order of AL-31FNs, I expected to see the first generation of J-10Bs using AL-31FN instead of WS-10X


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## sancho

orangzaib said:


> All I can say is...WOW. So you've called me incorrect



Not really, because it's nothing personal for me, I have just said that several of your statements were wrong no matter if you like it or not. But you are just trying to find new excuses again, what has the number of produced F22s to do with the WVR capability? You produced low numbers, because there was no threat in the last decades and it would have been a waste of money and all this has nothing to do with the earlier discussion.



hasnain0099 said:


> Of course it is, *but for F-22 Dogfight is a more like a doomsday scenario.* F-22 is more like an air sniper, take a shot and hide for another one. Though I always acknowledge impressive chinese developments in aviation, you never know what US has up her sleeves. If you think US military development is transparant and she doesn't keep them secret, think again. To date, we dont even know the complete capabilities of F-22A which has been in service for a dacade now.



True, back in the 90s when it was developed. What I said is, that by 2020 we will see several other stealth fighters and in a stealth fighter vs stealth fighter cenario the US BVR combat policy won't hold their own anymore, because their edge in BVR will be gone and it will be similar to the situation now. When will an J10B for example detect an F15E and what happens if they go into an WVR combat? The stealth fighters won't be able to detect eachother at long distances, so will sooner or later enter WVR combats and in such, a J20 might offer better flight performance than an F35 for example. The US simply hopes that HMS and highly maneuverable missiles will be enough, but by then China will have the same things too. So where is the edge then?

I am sure that the US will come up with something new, they have to, my point was only because there was nothing comparable to US stealth fighters for decades, it doesn't mean that situation remains the same for all time, nor are the US the only country that are able to develop high tech weapons.
China will catch up soon and although it might not come with an impressive J10B anymore, since they put more focus on stealth fighters now, it will be interesting to see how competitive the AESA radars will be, which also tells us something about the shrinking edge of the west.

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## sancho

fatman17 said:


> how? - or are u alluding to the fact that the FWS-10A is a locally manufactured chinese copy of the AL-31FN?. even that is ok.



Are there any specs available of the FWS-10A?


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## Bratva

interview with Air Vice-Marshal Javed Ahmed -Project Director of JF-17 Program&#12288;

*Internet rumors of Pakistan will buy F-10 rumors, Air Vice Marshal Javad Ahmed denied*. He said that China and Pakistan jointly developed the "Fierce Dragon" has succeeded in equipment, but China and Pakistan is still on its continue to improve its ability to multitask further improve, and Pakistan is also working to improve the "Fierce Dragon" The degree of localization. He said that the Pakistan Air Force needs to bring together all the resources together so as to achieve better results. "Fierce Dragon" fighter performance, multi-tasking ability, can Pakistan's current operational needs, and improved still further. *F -10 is also out of the hands of the Chengdu Aircraft Manufacturing Company,* Pakistan Air Force its also a certain understanding of the Zhuhai Airshow also be able to see the excellent performance of the August flight demonstration team, *the Pakistan Air Force know F -10 advanced technology performance, but in the next few years, Pakistan will not consider buying.*

?????????? ??????-10??_??_???

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## SBD-3

mafiya said:


> interview with Air Vice-Marshal Javed Ahmed -Project Director of JF-17 Program&#12288;
> 
> *Internet rumors of Pakistan will buy F-10 rumors, Air Vice Marshal Javad Ahmed denied*. He said that China and Pakistan jointly developed the "Fierce Dragon" has succeeded in equipment, but China and Pakistan is still on its continue to improve its ability to multitask further improve, and Pakistan is also working to improve the "Fierce Dragon" The degree of localization. He said that the Pakistan Air Force needs to bring together all the resources together so as to achieve better results. "Fierce Dragon" fighter performance, multi-tasking ability, can Pakistan's current operational needs, and improved still further. *F -10 is also out of the hands of the Chengdu Aircraft Manufacturing Company,* Pakistan Air Force its also a certain understanding of the Zhuhai Airshow also be able to see the excellent performance of the August flight demonstration team, *the Pakistan Air Force know F -10 advanced technology performance, but in the next few years, Pakistan will not consider buying.*
> 
> ?????????? ??????-10??_??_???



Nice title "Interview with Pakistan Air Force generals to break Pakistan will purchase F -10 rumors"

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## 帅的一匹

Mao ze Dong once said: Emperial USA is a paper tiger. If we shoot down those F22 someday, i would like to say its quite normal. When every one superstitiously believe in one thing for stubborn , it becomes a legend. Zero casualty war is crap when you engage with china.

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## INDIAISM

mafiya said:


> interview with Air Vice-Marshal Javed Ahmed -Project Director of JF-17 Program
> 
> *Internet rumors of Pakistan will buy F-10 rumors, Air Vice Marshal Javad Ahmed denied. He said that China and Pakistan jointly developed the "Fierce Dragon" has succeeded in equipment,* but China and Pakistan is still on its continue to improve its ability to multitask further improve, and Pakistan is also working to improve the "Fierce Dragon" The degree of localization. He said that the Pakistan Air Force needs to bring together all the resources together so as to achieve better results. "Fierce Dragon" fighter performance, multi-tasking ability, can Pakistan's current operational needs, and improved still further. *F -10 is also out of the hands of the Chengdu Aircraft Manufacturing Company,* Pakistan Air Force its also a certain understanding of the Zhuhai Airshow also be able to see the excellent performance of the August flight demonstration team, *the Pakistan Air Force know F -10 advanced technology performance, but in the next few years, Pakistan will not consider buying.*
> 
> ?????????? ??????-10??_??_???


Dam Chineese and their naming problem can't they stick to one name.....sometimes i am not even able to understand which plane they are talking about.....


Jf 17,FC-1,Fierce Dragon

J10,FC-20,Vigorous Dragon, and Now F-10

MIG21{Soviet} chineese names F-7,J-7 and then its BGI,PGI...

Su27{Soviet} chineese name j11,j15 or 16 whatever and all


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## Anony

orangzaib said:


> NO Pakfa, J-20 or anything else can come closer to the technology being used in the F-22. There's a reason why it's about $ 200 mil a piece.
> 
> Every country can make 'Stealthy' jets. ONLY the US can make the F-22. That's the bottom line and you can trust it or try it. Wouldn't recommend sending a few of your SU-30's against the F-22....on the radio, it sounds something like 'Contact Lost'..in the middle of what otherwise would seem to be a normal flight. Then followed by a sharp beep and a dark radar screen.............



Surely we will, but not the Su 30. Wait for 6-7 years, we will send FGFA to kick ur back in the same way Su 30 kick ur F 15 at RED FLAG and Cope India.


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## Viper0011.

Anony said:


> Surely we will, but not the Su 30. Wait for 6-7 years, we will send FGFA to kick ur back in the same way Su 30 kick ur F 15 at RED FLAG and Cope India.



 Less emotions, you'll live longer. I heard a Russian guy say that to one of our mutual friends!! 6-7 years...you are going to have your FGFA kick who's ****? You are going to fly FGFA against Hypersonic jets that travel at Mach 20....you know no missile can hit that right?
Plus, no stealth is invisible anymore. F-22 and F-35 have a new tech in it that can track objects from 800 miles away through high density IR and a combination of other things.....it's not going to be Radars anymore or 50KM IRIST or FLIRs.....I talked about it in some analysis a long time ago!

For the record, no SU-30 'kicked' F-15's **** at Nellis. Go read up. F-15's were told not to use BVRs plus no AWACS support. While Su-30's were allowed with BVR's but no AWACS support. The purpose for the US was to measure SU-30's flight characteristics and its true capability as THATS what China has (India was mere a country who happen to have those so it was easier to invite them). 
USAF / USN ALWAYS gives the other air forces a chance to win or have the upper hand. That's the idea. 
Similarly.....Rafale 'lock' on the F-22....what did you think that was??? LOL. Remember, the US brings people from India to help its innovation going. Not the other way around. I don't see that changing in 6-7 or 15 years. Some innovation will come but not all. If India and China run a $ 400 billion budget with strong focus on military r&d, after 15 years, I will start to see some results on the advanced capability.

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## Anony

abdulbarijan said:


> An AESA/PESA on a J-10B nose is not enough proof ??
> 
> *So since you compared the "development with LCA" why dont you show an LCA having an AESA on its nose ... *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dont forget its the same China that brought two stealth designs on the table in less than 2 years ... And is operating indigenous AWACS like KJ-2000 and is exporting AESA based platforms like ZDK-03 ....
> 
> hmm really .. well lets reverse the tables ... I provided you with a reliable insider who posted this news ... now would you do the honors of posting a reliable insider news (some one of pupu's status on online forums) to counter my claims ...
> 
> or is it the fact that you dont have anything to contradict, except for pacifying to the same excuse of
> *"official media did not report it"*
> 
> But even if it did, as always no amount of proof will be enough for u unless it comes from IBN live or times of india ...
> 
> 
> 
> WOW ... for the record with the *WS-10B gives in excess of 130 KN and with loaded weight rated at 13000 Kg(there is some disparity in loaded weight however considering the use of extensive composites in J-10B, weight would be reduced), it gives J-10 1 + T/W ratio which by your own standards makes it a 4.5 generation fighter jet* ...
> 
> Full steam ahead for China's engine designs ~ ASIAN DEFENCE
> 
> Yes *"ALMOST"* is the key here because almost got the date of the IOC to 2014, never mind the FOC and then the R&D for a new version including a whole new engine,new avionics, integrating new weapons, structural changes... that all will take 3-4 days right
> ANd let me remind you,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So when will your 4.5 generation jet be operational considering you think its going to take two years for J-10 for a new engine (dont forget the details which i mentioned above and then answer )
> *
> Yes ofcourse we are not in the race, thats why such an experienced analyst is on our pathetic forum getting his rear end kicked from one place to another and only has one thing to say,
> "you cant prove it "
> even after seeing photographed evidence, but its not proof cuz *"its a nightmare for you" *


 

I have already mentioned before that I am not comparing LCA to J 10, so first of all stop howling on that point. 

We have Su 30mki and that 230 in numbers with 42 additional on order. So we don't need a 4 generation aircraft to compare with our 4.5 gen aircraft. So * sweet-dream for us not nightmare* If j 10 replace F 16 as the main fighter of PAF, it will be *icing on the cake* for Su 30.

Dude, don't U understand the difference between Past,Present and Future tense.

I mention 3 imp. points in my original post.

1. Status of WS 10 engine.

2. Status of AESA radar

3. EW capability of J 10.

And concluded if it is lack any one of the above three, it shouldn't be called a 4.5 gen fighter and that comparing it with Su 30mki or even F 16 blk 52 is childish.

But U brought all the irrelevant nonsense of KJ 2000, LCA, WS 10G, Kaveri, etc.


So among the three points, I have already considered that WS 10A is doing good and will be at least powering one squadron of J 10 in next two year after seeing ur link only.

But EW no news, and AESA radar is in testing phase, how difficult it is to understand, when it is not on the nose of any fighter it is under testing.

Similar to AESA on LCA or Gripen - both under testing.

I have no qualms in accepting that AESA of J 10 is in advanced stage than on LCA and atleast they will integrate it on J 10 well 2-3 years before DRDO can do it on Tejas.

So please don't distract from the original topic.


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## Anony

orangzaib said:


> Less emotions, you'll live longer. I heard a Russian guy say that to one of our mutual friends!! 6-7 years...you are going to have your FGFA kick who's ****? You are going to fly FGFA against Hypersonic jets that travel at Mach 20....you know no missile can hit that right?
> Plus, no stealth is invisible anymore. F-22 and F-35 have a new tech in it that can track objects from 800 miles away through high density IR and a combination of other things.....it's not going to be Radars anymore or 50KM IRIST or FLIRs.....I talked about it in some analysis a long time ago!
> 
> For the record, no SU-30 'kicked' F-15's **** at Nellis. Go read up. F-15's were told not to use BVRs plus no AWACS support. While Su-30's were allowed with BVR's but no AWACS support. The purpose for the US was to measure SU-30's flight characteristics and its true capability as THATS what China has (India was mere a country who happen to have those so it was easier to invite them).
> USAF / USN ALWAYS gives the other air forces a chance to win or have the upper hand. That's the idea.
> Similarly.....Rafale 'lock' on the F-22....what did you think that was??? LOL. Remember, the US brings people from India to help its innovation going. Not the other way around. I don't see that changing in 6-7 or 15 years. Some innovation will come but not all. If India and China run a $ 400 billion budget with strong focus on military r&d, after 15 years, I will start to see some results on the advanced capability.




Hypersonic jets at Mach 20, and that to by 2020. R U kidding me?

But importantly, Su 30 mki at Nellis neither F 15 nor Su 30mki were using BVR. And more importantly, Su 30 can't be using BVR because they were not using their main N011M bars radar but an alternative radar which can track only 40km distance. On top they were not connected with each other to share data, only manual wordings were on.

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## abdulbarijan

Anony said:


> I have already mentioned before that I am not comparing LCA to J 10, so first of all stop howling on that point.
> 
> We have Su 30mki and that 230 in numbers with 42 additional on order. So we don't need a 4 generation aircraft to compare with our 4.5 gen aircraft. So * sweet-dream for us not nightmare* If j 10 replace F 16 as the main fighter of PAF, it will be *icing on the cake* for Su 30.
> 
> Dude, don't U understand the difference between Past,Present and Future tense.
> 
> I mention 3 imp. points in my original post.
> 
> 1. Status of WS 10 engine.
> 
> 2. Status of AESA radar
> 
> 3. EW capability of J 10.





It seems u dont understand what u yourself wrote, you were comparing the *project development* of AESA radars on both jets and claimed that the LCA AESA is similar to that ... dont believe me see for yourself what you wrote ..




> *AESA RADAR:* . As far as development is concerned I too know that it was under development from long time and that one day it will become reality. But that day is not now. *Similar to AESA on LCA*.



So now I ask you to prove the point you yourself were howling about, *if the development progress is the same show us the picture of LCA having an onboard AESA/PESA tested on it like this ....*






As far as the MKI goes, you have 1*8 block 52's, plus 45 MLU F-16*'s equipt with AMRAAMs along with *JF-17'*s and force multipliers at one side of the border and around* 200+ J-10's,150+ J-10/J-10B,70+ SU-27's and 70+ SU-30 MKK's* on the other side of the border .... 

*Still think its a piece of cake ?? or SWEET DREAMS as you yourself point out ... 
*

As far as J-10 replacing F-16's , nope its not going to happen, J-10 will be an additional MRCA of PAF if it does not directly opt for a stealth platform ... but still, if you think J-10 is an easy thing to deal with, why not send some SU-30's to check the other side of the border out, because if i remember correctly you did not had the bullocks to do it after a certain *Surgical media strike....ummm..excuse me .. stunt * ..  



Anony said:


> 1. It* will* have AESA radar*.(not having)*



Thats why *prototypes* of *J-10B HAVE it on their noses* ... unlike LCA .. 



> 2. It can maneuverability of 9g.*(it never had)*


Care to provide a credible link to* prove this allegation*?



> 3. It *will* have WS 10/13 engine.*(it don't have)*


Again thats why *a prototype is running around with WS-10 up its butt* ...right ...



> 4. It can be compared to 4.5 gen fighter.(*for what specific technology, only god knows)*


*
Long range AESA/PESA, Low RCS (use of composites/RAM), new EW suite ( dont forget which jet had the honor to be the test bed of a 5th generation fighter) .... 



5. It will have a very good EW suite.(No description about that good thing.)

Click to expand...


Just check the EW suite of JF-17, read a little something about DAS of JF-17 on the JF-17 info pool thread and then comeback and bark about what's good and whats not ... 






And concluded if it is lack any one of the above three, it shouldn't be called a 4.5 gen fighter and that comparing it with Su 30mki or even F 16 blk 52 is childish.

But U brought all the irrelevant nonsense of KJ 2000, LCA, WS 10G, Kaveri, etc.


So among the three points, I have already considered that WS 10A is doing good and will be at least powering one squadron of J 10 in next two year after seeing ur link only.

But EW no news, and AESA radar is in testing phase, how difficult it is to understand, when it is not on the nose of any fighter it is under testing.

Similar to AESA on LCA or Gripen - both under testing.

I have no qualms in accepting that AESA of J 10 is in advanced stage than on LCA and atleast they will integrate it on J 10 well 2-3 years before DRDO can do it on Tejas.

So please don't distract from the original topic.

Click to expand...


First of all , no one is calling J-10/J-10A a 4.5 generation fighter, its j-10B we are talking about.Like i said "testing" is one thing "progress" is another, Now if you compare the "progress" of the development of J-10 with AESA, its a different story then the LCA .. 


Correction boy, i did not bring in the LCA, you were the one who did, bringing in KJ-2000 was to show CHina now has the ability to make AESA radars and 5th generation platforms ofcourse many of the Indian forums still called it a photoshop even after the pictures were "leaked" but thats a different story, your grudge with China will never allow you to accept the bitter truth ...

LOL! ... well two-three years before LCA ... Are you F-iing kidding me??? 
LCA MK-II is to be delievered after MK-I is ready, MK-I gets IOC in 2014 as per "PLANS", then the R&D and design, structural changes and testing ... 

Safe to say MK-II with AESA wont happen anytime before 2016-2017, now if your saying that it would take Chinese 2-3 years just to integrate a new radar on a platform which is in the testing phase as we speak, then I wonder how much time will DRDO take.... *

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## SBD-3

danger-zone said:


> We should eat sh*t now and lets just close the thread.
> Where are all the Think-Tanks who spread all those rumours ... THINK-TANK - THANKS COLLECTORS.


His point is very straight forward, that PAF has been more than satisfied with JFT which meets the current operational requirements. Secondly, he said that PAF is current focusing on optimizing the thunder and increased localization. PAF has acknowledged the advanced technologies and capabilities of J-10 but will not be considering a purchase unless the operational requirements and funds availability demand so.


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## DANGER-ZONE

hasnain0099 said:


> His point is very straight forward, that PAF has been more than satisfied with JFT which meets the current operational requirements. Secondly, he said that PAF is current focusing on optimizing the thunder and increased localization. PAF has acknowledged the advanced technologies and capabilities of J-10 but will not be considering a purchase unless the operational requirements and funds availability demand so.



So do you see any further purpose of this thread after a high ranked PAF official briefed about the acquisition of J-10, unless a formal deal take place.


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## SBD-3

danger-zone said:


> So do you see any further purpose of this thread after a high ranked PAF official briefed about the acquisition of J-10, unless a formal deal take place.


The thread is about J-10/FC-20, not explicitly about Pakistan Buying J-10. Even Sir Pervaiz Shamim said so that till now only technical negotiations are confirmed, commercial negotiations have not started yet. So there is interest certainly but when would that materialize, we dont know.

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## Najam Khan

mafiya said:


> interview with Air Vice-Marshal Javed Ahmed -Project Director of JF-17 Program&#12288;
> 
> *Internet rumors of Pakistan will buy F-10 rumors, Air Vice Marshal Javad Ahmed denied*
> 
> *F -10 is also out of the hands of the Chengdu Aircraft Manufacturing Company,* Pakistan Air Force its also a certain understanding of the Zhuhai Airshow also be able to see the excellent performance of the August flight demonstration team, *the Pakistan Air Force know F -10 advanced technology performance, but in the next few years, Pakistan will not consider buying.*



Maturity of JF-17 with time, delays in the on-going modernization in IAF, delays in WS-10A and arrival of J-31 on the table might be some of the reasons.

In past 5-6 years, there had been various occasions (such as Mumbai crisis (2008) and attack on Salala post...plus, the likes of a former CAS) when procurement of J-10 looked close but with passage of time it become blurry again. Now, if its dropped down then it will be better for PAF in the longer run.

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## fatman17

hasnain0099 said:


> The thread is about J-10/FC-20, not explicitly about Pakistan Buying J-10. Even Sir Pervaiz Shamim said so that till now only technical negotiations are confirmed, commercial negotiations have not started yet. So there is interest certainly but when would that materialize, we dont know.



its the engine man - has to be chinese, chinese, chinese!!!

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## Viper0011.

Najam Khan said:


> Maturity of JF-17 with time, delays in the on-going modernization in IAF, delays in WS-10A and arrival of J-31 on the table might be some of the reasons.
> 
> In past 5-6 years, there had been various occasions (such as Mumbai crisis (2008) and attack on Salala post...plus, the likes of a former CAS) when procurement of J-10 looked close but with passage of time it become blurry again. Now, if its dropped down then it will be better for PAF in the longer run.



I say get all J-31's. No need for FC-20. I know what I am proposing has more cost to it. BUT, this will eliminate the need to change fighters yet again over 30 years. Plus, if you manage to form the 'Hi Tier' with all Stealth.....you've put half the IAF at a disadvantage.....what will they be fighting with?? "ghosts". So a lot of their fighter and defensive doctrine hits a roadblock. This is not to confuse that they won't have anything, they'll have PakFa and FGFA too. BUT, at that level, the game is neutralized as its ghosts against other ghosts (assuming these are truly stealthy planes). But that's my recommendation. JUST focus on J-31 and get that in numbers like 4-5 squadrons. Then advance JFT into block 3, may be composites and very reduced cross section (semi stealth). Combine these with 4 squadrons of J-16 and then the F-16 B 40 - 52 force, PF becomes a VERY strong air force. Literally be able to keep the enemies at bay

So here's the breakdown:
- 300 JFT's (hopefully 100 - 200 with heavy composites / much reduced RCS and 9 hp's)
- 80 - 120 F-16's (block 40 - 52)
- 80 - 120 J-31's 
- 80 - 100 J-16's (at least two squadrons for the Navy in addition to dedicated JFT squadron fro the navy)
- 60 - 80 Point defense (good airframes, worthy of service F-7's and Mirages)
So PAF will be maintaining combat ready force of about 600 - 660 jets, including Western tech and Chinese stealth. This is a VERY STRONG force!!!


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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> its the engine man - has to be chinese, chinese, chinese!!!


Of course a chinese engine would make Chinese aviation market immune to external dependence. However, As the Russians allowed re-export of RD-93, so could they have allowed AL-31FN to Pakistan since we are not their direct market. Had there been an urgency from PAF, J-10s could just land in green colors being powered by AL-31FN. So yes the argument packs logic but precedent exists against it.

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## farhan_9909

skipping J10 seems alot better
we already will have bulk of jft and around 80 f16 

its better to save the funds and rather get the J31
EARLIER AND IN LARGE NUMBER

36 j10 wont make any drastic change


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## S10

farhan_9909 said:


> skipping J10 seems alot better
> we already will have bulk of jft and around 80 f16
> 
> its better to save the funds and rather get the J31
> EARLIER AND IN LARGE NUMBER
> 
> 36 j10 wont make any drastic change


J-10 will be the bulk of Chinese airforce, and will continue to be produced by China even after J-20 and J-31 are inducted. Fourth (Fifth) generation planes are extremely pricey to purchase and maintain, even for China. I doubt you will see those in large numbers. You need a backbone aircraft, which is where J-10 comes in. Once J-31 or J-20 clears the sky of enemy opposition, J-10 and JF-17 can start aerial precision bombings, electronic warfare and close air support.

Besides, J-10B is only the first upgrade. As technologies from J-20 and J-31 program mature, they will be grafted to J-10.

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## DANGER-ZONE

hasnain0099 said:


> The thread is about J-10/FC-20, not explicitly about Pakistan Buying J-10. Even Sir Pervaiz Shamim said so that till now only technical negotiations are confirmed, commercial negotiations have not started yet. So there is interest certainly but when would that materialize, we dont know.



Koi hal nai Tuada ... Ke banay ga in lokan da.

TUADA ALLAH HE HAFIZ and enjoy J-10/FC-20 lolly well.


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## SEAL

farhan_9909 said:


> skipping J10 seems alot better
> we already will have bulk of jft and around 80 f16
> 
> its better to save the funds and rather get the J31
> EARLIER AND IN LARGE NUMBER
> 
> 36 j10 wont make any drastic change



Yea it make sense J-10 is completely different platform with different engine J-31 atleast have RD-93 and PAF is happy its performance, secondly J-31 is not PLAAF sponsored project so if SAC have no issues, PAF and SAC should become partners in development just like JF-17 project. Beside the way PAF handling JF-17 project, its better to concentrate on this at the moment.


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## trident2010

orangzaib said:


> - 300 JFT's (hopefully 100 - 200 with heavy composites / much reduced RCS and 9 hp's)
> - 80 - 120 F-16's (block 40 - 52)
> - 80 - 120 J-31's
> - 80 - 100 J-16's (at least two squadrons for the Navy in addition to dedicated JFT squadron fro the navy)
> - 60 - 80 Point defense (good airframes, worthy of service F-7's and Mirages)



Looks good break down. 80 J-31, 80 J-16 and overall 600 jets. By which year you think PAF is going to have these numbers? And since you mentioned IAF you understand that by the time PAF get the list you mentioned IAF shall have atleast 150 FGFA, 270 Su-30 MKI many with super sukohi upgrade, 126 Rafale, around 200 Tejas Mk2, 67 Mig-29 UPG, 51 Mirage 2000-5 Mk 2 etc. 
I don't think at any time IAF will be on disadvantage. The advantage of having J-10 is the operational maintenance which is much higher in 5th gen plane. Therefore rather than having large nos of J-31, it is economically viable to have say 2 squadrons of J-31 mixed with upgraded J-10s and JFTs.


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## SBD-3

Pictures keep trickling......

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## Kompromat

hasnain0099 said:


> Pictures keep trickling......



Where is fixed IFR probe ?

BTW, from this angle, it looks like Rafale.


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## SBD-3

Aeronaut said:


> Where is fixed IFR probe ?


Probably removed temporarily or yet to be installed.


> BTW, from this angle, it looks like Rafale.


Agreed....


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## Kompromat

hasnain0099 said:


> Probably removed temporarily or yet to be installed.
> 
> Agreed....



Or, maybe there is a retractable one. By the HUD is massive.

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## Safriz

I cant find the news now..But there was a news in the era of Previous PAF cheiof..He went to china asking them for certain modifications on J-10B....

point is PAF is / was interested in J-10B...
Most probable cause of the delay is Chinese engine not yet ready for mass production...

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## sancho

Aeronaut said:


> BTW, from this angle, it looks like Rafale.



 Which part?


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## Donatello

J-10 is starting to really impress. I hope the Pakistani economy starts growing, so we can purchase these and maybe J-31s. If PAF does choose J-31s, i m pretty confident that Chinese will deliver faster than the Russians to India, which will give PAF a huge advantage, even if for a short time.


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## Thorough Pro

sancho said:


> Which part?



Hiny.........they both burn! actually that would make them resemble all indians too.............


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## Irfan Baloch

orangzaib said:


> Then advance JFT into block 3, may be composites and very reduced cross section (semi stealth).



wise man says that this whole exercise is a waste because the weapons on the external pylons nullify any RCS reduction gains.

but over all the approach is interesting. recommending bypassing J-10 altogether would not be easy


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## Viper0011.

trident2010 said:


> Looks good break down. 80 J-31, 80 J-16 and overall 600 jets. By which year you think PAF is going to have these numbers? And since you mentioned IAF you understand that by the time PAF get the list you mentioned IAF shall have atleast 150 FGFA, 270 Su-30 MKI many with super sukohi upgrade, 126 Rafale, around 200 Tejas Mk2, 67 Mig-29 UPG, 51 Mirage 2000-5 Mk 2 etc.
> I don't think at any time IAF will be on disadvantage. The advantage of having J-10 is the operational maintenance which is much higher in 5th gen plane. Therefore rather than having large nos of J-31, it is economically viable to have say 2 squadrons of J-31 mixed with upgraded J-10s and JFTs.



Why do the Indian members have to take EVERY freaking thing as tit for tat. The getting defensive mentality is tiring to say the least.
Let me tell you how 'this list' you mentioned would work. If the US decides to JUST export 5 million jobs to Pakistan (compared to 20 million donated to India), the list will be completed in less than three years!!! Cash talks and empty talker walks. Btw, it doesn't matter how many jets you field. The fact that you know there are 100 some places your deference can be penetrated through stealth tech, the scenario calls for equilibrium in a way that both sides don't want to fight a war as both air defenses can be penetrated through stealth causing massive damage in the case of India and Pakistan. 

Now let's take the Indian superman mentality out of it and focus on the actual post I wrote for the PAF. The numbers are moderate and give a DEFENSIVE force like PAF a massive punch. India can't launch all 1200 jets into Pakistan. So at any given time, Pakistan will be dealing with about IA's 800 to PAF's 600 per my list. They are used to a LOT worse. This should work in their favor. India is at a disadvantage because its the attacking force in an enemy territory. 

The main fact is that in India and Pakistan's scenario, unfortunately India's might and size and the imaginary 2000 jets don't make a lot of difference as Pakistan is not a conventional country and doesn't require bullet by bullet match. Also, both of you guys are RIGHT next to each other so in a way its a no escape zone for either one of you guys. 
The next war will be nuclear if small incidents turn into full border conflict. The size of the Indian military or AF may be impressive for Nepal, Sri Lanka, Central and ME countries but in Pakistan's case, its the nuclear umbrella that creates the equilibrium, plus they've dealt with a much bigger Indian military for over many decades. The ONLY available option for both these countries is to MAKE PEACE!!!

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## fatman17

*Why do the Indian members have to take EVERY freaking thing as tit for tat. The getting defensive mentality is tiring to say the least*

cant help it - some PK newbies are the same. this is the bane of this board.

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## trident2010

orangzaib said:


> Why do the Indian members have to take EVERY freaking thing as tit for tat. The getting defensive mentality is tiring to say the least.
> Let me tell you how 'this list' you mentioned would work. If the US decides to JUST export 5 million jobs to Pakistan (compared to 20 million donated to India), the list will be completed in less than three years!!! Cash talks and empty talker walks. Btw, it doesn't matter how many jets you field. The fact that you know there are 100 some places your deference can be penetrated through stealth tech, the scenario calls for equilibrium in a way that both sides don't want to fight a war as both air defenses can be penetrated through stealth causing massive damage in the case of India and Pakistan.
> 
> Now let's take the Indian superman mentality out of it and focus on the actual post I wrote for the PAF. The numbers are moderate and give a DEFENSIVE force like PAF a massive punch. India can't launch all 1200 jets into Pakistan. So at any given time, Pakistan will be dealing with about IA's 800 to PAF's 600 per my list. They are used to a LOT worse. This should work in their favor. India is at a disadvantage because its the attacking force in an enemy territory.
> 
> The main fact is that in India and Pakistan's scenario, unfortunately India's might and size and the imaginary 2000 jets don't make a lot of difference as Pakistan is not a conventional country and doesn't require bullet by bullet match. Also, both of you guys are RIGHT next to each other so in a way its a no escape zone for either one of you guys.
> The next war will be nuclear if small incidents turn into full border conflict. The size of the Indian military or AF may be impressive for Nepal, Sri Lanka, Central and ME countries but in Pakistan's case, its the nuclear umbrella that creates the equilibrium, plus they've dealt with a much bigger Indian military for over many decades. The ONLY available option for both these countries is to MAKE PEACE!!!



No one is getting defensive here. I mentioned all those things because when Pakistani fan boys predict the list of the future for their armed forces, they forget that their opponents are also upgrading. Again if you said that IAF is aggressive force then what it will do is to attack the airbases where you field J-31 by FGFAs. So where is the advantage of having such a expensive fighter if it can be neutralise? On the other hand being cheaper, J-10 can be inducted in large numbers and therefore will survive during first attack and can get airborne and provide some resistance. Nothing will turn into nuclear, it is not as easy as we think.


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## Anony

abdulbarijan said:


> It seems u dont understand what u yourself wrote, you were comparing the *project development* of AESA radars on both jets and claimed that the LCA AESA is similar to that ... dont believe me see for yourself what you wrote ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So now I ask you to prove the point you yourself were howling about, *if the development progress is the same show us the picture of LCA having an onboard AESA/PESA tested on it like this ....*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as the MKI goes, you have 1*8 block 52's, plus 45 MLU F-16*'s equipt with AMRAAMs along with *JF-17'*s and force multipliers at one side of the border and around* 200+ J-10's,150+ J-10/J-10B,70+ SU-27's and 70+ SU-30 MKK's* on the other side of the border ....
> 
> *Still think its a piece of cake ?? or SWEET DREAMS as you yourself point out ...
> *
> 
> As far as J-10 replacing F-16's , nope its not going to happen, J-10 will be an additional MRCA of PAF if it does not directly opt for a stealth platform ... but still, if you think J-10 is an easy thing to deal with, why not send some SU-30's to check the other side of the border out, because if i remember correctly you did not had the bullocks to do it after a certain *Surgical media strike....ummm..excuse me .. stunt * ..
> 
> 
> 
> Thats why *prototypes* of *J-10B HAVE it on their noses* ... unlike LCA ..
> 
> 
> Care to provide a credible link to* prove this allegation*?
> 
> 
> Again thats why *a prototype is running around with WS-10 up its butt* ...right ...
> 
> 
> Long range AESA/PESA, Low RCS (use of composites/RAM), new EW suite ( dont forget which jet had the honor to be the test bed of a 5th generation fighter) ....
> 
> 
> Just check the EW suite of JF-17, *read a little something about DAS of JF-17 *on the JF-17 info pool thread and then comeback and bark about what's good and whats not ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of all , *no one is calling J-10/J-10A a 4.5 generation fighter*, its j-10B we are talking about.Like i said *"testing"* is one thing* "progress" *is another, Now if you compare the "progress" of the development of J-10 with AESA, its a different story then the LCA ..
> 
> 
> Correction boy, i did not bring in the LCA, you were the one who did, bringing in KJ-2000 was to show CHina now has the ability to make AESA radars and 5th generation platforms ofcourse many of the Indian forums still called it a photoshop even after the pictures were "leaked" but thats a different story, your grudge with China will never allow you to accept the bitter truth ...
> 
> LOL! ... *well two-three years before LCA ... Are you F-iing kidding me*???
> LCA MK-II is to be delievered after MK-I is ready, MK-I gets IOC in 2014 as per *"PLANS"*, then the R&D and design, structural changes and testing ...
> 
> *Safe to say MK-II with AESA wont happen anytime before 2016-2017, now if your saying that it would take Chinese 2-3 years just to integrate a new radar on a platform which is in the testing phase as we speak, then I wonder how much time will DRDO take*....



After having a long discussion with U, what I can only say is that neither U have power to comprehend what other has posted,nor U can keep ur emotion aside for a minute to get a logical discussion and if U can't comprehend the usage *SIMILAR* between timeframe and quality, no more discussion.

I leave U to this, to keep polishing the back of China as U have nothing of urs to show.


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## abdulbarijan

Anony said:


> After having a long discussion with U, what I can only say is that neither U have power to comprehend what other has posted,nor U can keep ur emotion aside for a minute to get a logical discussion and if U can't comprehend the usage *SIMILAR* between timeframe and quality, no more discussion.
> 
> * I leave U to this, to keep polishing the back of China as U have nothing of urs to show*.



The problem is son that you are always asking ... 
when you ask for proof, i gave it to you in form of articles,links and photographs which prove my point, while you keep resorting to your "tenses" etc ... 

i give hard proof but when apparently I ask for proof from you, all i get is a little kid whining about how he got OWNED, so therefore the logical retreat from your side ... once again I ask these questions ...

*-J-10 cannot pull 9g's ... Prove it ...

-J-10B does not have an AESA (its prototype does) ... so how come you can compare its development with LCA AESA which is still far from being even operational (even MK-1 with a PD radar) ...

-J-10B does not have WS-10 engine ... again prove it as a prototype is equip with it 

-WS-10 (advance models like WS-10B with TVC) gives the same amount of thrust as al-31's ... prove it..

**
Now I know your last resort is saying J-10B is not operational yet and all that, but lets face the facts ...your initial post says something different which i responded to in the first place. ..*



> *1. It will have AESA radar.(not having)*
> 
> *2. It can maneuverability of 9g.(it never had)*
> 
> 3. It will have WS 10/13 engine.(it don't have)
> *
> 4. It can be compared to 4.5 gen fighter.(for what specific technology, only god knows)*
> 
> *5. It will have a very good EW suite.(No description about that good thing.)*



*
Problem with someone like you whose whining about reasoning is that he himself lacks it big time!*



> * I leave U to this, to keep polishing the back of China as U have nothing of urs to show*.


*It just burns you alive doesn't it, but its okay frankly I expected this whining from you after your initial post, dont worry this wont be your last time* ...

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## DANGER-ZONE

mafiya said:


> interview with Air Vice-Marshal Javed Ahmed -Project Director of JF-17 Program&#12288;
> 
> *Internet rumors of Pakistan will buy F-10 rumors, Air Vice Marshal Javad Ahmed denied*. He said that China and Pakistan jointly developed the "Fierce Dragon" has succeeded in equipment, but China and Pakistan is still on its continue to improve its ability to multitask further improve, and Pakistan is also working to improve the "Fierce Dragon" The degree of localization. He said that the Pakistan Air Force needs to bring together all the resources together so as to achieve better results. "Fierce Dragon" fighter performance, multi-tasking ability, can Pakistan's current operational needs, and improved still further. *F -10 is also out of the hands of the Chengdu Aircraft Manufacturing Company,* Pakistan Air Force its also a certain understanding of the Zhuhai Airshow also be able to see the excellent performance of the August flight demonstration team, *the Pakistan Air Force know F -10 advanced technology performance, but in the next few years, Pakistan will not consider buying.*
> 
> ?????????? ??????-10??_??_???



*JAB JAHAZ KHREED NAHIN SAKTAY *







*TO RUMORS Q PHELATAY HO*

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## araz

OK Guys Lets have a think about the J10 conundrum.
You have to understand that in many ways the changes coming about in China are staggering.You look at one thing draw out your plans and wallla they show you another toy. Nowhere in the world has progress taken a pace like china these days. But there are problems inspite of the vast variety there are problems for PAF. One of them is the lack of a suitable engine of chinese origin which means dwaling with the red bear which PAF is not too happy about. The second problem is the lack ofresources and even China will not sell without money. Our situation is so bad we are having difficulty paying back for what we have boughf already.
The kast aspect which was pointed out by pshamim saheb six months or so ago was the development potential if JFT which goes far beyond what was earlier expected. According to him the development potential is much more so than J10 which raised quite a few eyebrows. We have a plane which is incorporating newer technologies filtering down from J20and J10B and this incorporation can be done a lot cheaper than buying newer platforms. So in short we have comparable technologies of the other planes which we can incorporate relatively cheaply and with limited resources that is about all that we can do. 
FThe advent of J31has thrown another spanner in the planners juggernaut. With the possibility of a comparable semi stealth/low observable plane which will share quite a few things with JFT,do we go for a new plane or go for the stealthy one. Please also consider that by the end of this decade all the strides China is making in engine manufacturing would have borne fruit and chinese engine development would be progresssing nicely.There would therefore be merit in waiting in any case.
The last factor is the US.Are we in line to get some EDA F16s. The situation and timing would be within the next 12-18months. Now a lot of you may not like it but this would be the cheapest solutionand more bl15EDAs would not be that big a risk. It maybe that with the elections over US might be more receptive to our request. So there are options for APAF WHICH MAY BE EQUALLY GOOD OR BETTER. 
araz

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## fatman17

why would the PAF want to start another major project right away when it has its hands full with the JFT project which has already faced many obstacles and hurdles. having said that the JFT project is doing nicely now. one thing the planners should have considered was a twin-seat trainer (JF-17B) for quick conversion of pilots. i think this has slowed the induction of the JFT squadrons.
the J-10B will be inducted but not before the JFT project reaches maturity stage which would be around 2014.

so relax chill, put a shrimp on the barby and have a cold one

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> why would the PAF want to start another major project right away when it has its hands full with the JFT project which has already faced many obstacles and hurdles. having said that the JFT project is doing nicely now. one thing the planners should have considered was a twin-seat trainer (JF-17B) for quick conversion of pilots. i think this has slowed the induction of the JFT squadrons.
> the J-10B will be inducted but not before the JFT project reaches maturity stage which would be around 2014.
> 
> so relax chill, put a shrimp on the barby and have a cold one





Fatman,

We are seriously in need of some heavy duty fighters. JF-17s are good but won't cut it. J-10s offer better avionics, above all better payload ability. We seriously need more fighters with more than 7 hardpoints.

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## Kompromat



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## Kompromat

Anymore pics?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

J10B will make the crown jewel in Pakistan Airforce , no doubt simply because its a very beautiful plan and the plane is highly manouverable. This together with flying skills of pilots this would make a great addition 

The engine issue is common in all planes just need proper maintenence and care , and the issue is none issue 

We cannot jump to Stealth platform with out first solidifying our base , and replacing Mirage platform with J10B 

While this would give the Stealth platform time to evolve and get maturity. 

J10B + JF17 thunder would give Pakistan a great 1-2 punch with F16C/D for other tactical missions 

The Hud display looks wonderful , can't wait for this plane to arrive in Pakistan Airforce

The DARKSHADE j10b look great as well ...these planes are meant to be in black color


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## Luftwaffe

Aeronaut said:


> BTW, from this angle, it looks like Rafale.



More like Typhoon...

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## Thorough Pro

khrrrrrrrrrr..................Khrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr..................... Khrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr 

Yeah you got it right, It's PAF..............sleeping

Let me assure you son, if it ever comes to that, It would be PAF that will attack first..........



trident2010 said:


> No one is getting defensive here. I mentioned all those things because when Pakistani fan boys predict the list of the future for their armed forces, they forget that their opponents are also upgrading. Again if you said that *IAF is aggressive force then what it will do is to attack the airbases where you field J-31 by FGFAs. So where is the advantage* of having such a expensive fighter if it can be neutralise? On the other hand being cheaper, J-10 can be inducted in large numbers and therefore will survive during first attack and can get airborne and provide some resistance. Nothing will turn into nuclear, it is not as easy as we think.

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## 帅的一匹

Donatello said:


> J-10 is starting to really impress. I hope the Pakistani economy starts growing, so we can purchase these and maybe J-31s. If PAF does choose J-31s, i m pretty confident that Chinese will deliver faster than the Russians to India, which will give PAF a huge advantage, even if for a short time.



Faster delivery without back door at cheaper price. I think PAF 100% will go for J10b, a state of art. BTW, PAF pilot will be invited to fly J31 in the future.

Russian engine expert said at Zhuhai air show that the engine on J20 is not F117s, guess what is it? A Indeginous power plant for J20 will certainly tell you something.....

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## sancho

wanglaokan said:


> Faster delivery without back door at cheaper price. I think PAF 100% will go for J10b, a state of art. BTW, PAF pilot will be invited to fly J31 in the future.
> 
> Russian engine expert said at Zhuhai air show that the engine on J20 is not F117s, guess what is it? A Indeginous power plant for J20 will certainly tell you something.....



The fact that China has integrated indigenous engines into fighters alone, doesn't tell us anything about the performance of the engines and that's where the issues so far seems to be. The reports posted in this thread in this regard didn't sound promising and the constant rumors about Su 35 with 117S engines also could give a hint what China want, so lets wait for some reliable sources and specs, to see which engine PAF might take, or which engine will be used on which fighter.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> The fact that China has integrated indigenous engines into fighters alone, doesn't tell us anything about the performance of the engines and that's where the issues so far seems to be. The reports posted in this thread in this regard didn't sound promising and the constant rumors about Su 35 with 117S engines also could give a hint what China want, so lets wait for some reliable sources and specs, to see which *engine PAF might take*, or which engine will be used on which fighter.



Considering that the delay in (and if) procuring the FC-20 is only increasing.. this may result in the PAF simply waiting it out for the Chinese engine. Otherwise there have been informal discussions with Rosoboronexport for the possibility of using a slightly uprated version of the Al-31FN.. which has been cleared for technology export but until an official RFQ is made and the Indian lobby goes to work..nothing can be said. Simple fact is that the Chinese are struggling not with Turbine or Compressor design.. where they actually have had some great progress.. but metallurgy. The problem with reverse engineering(or information extraction focused education) is that you catch up in those areas where information is available.. but lose out where it is not.
Engine design is a widely taught subject and innovations in it are patented and available for understanding.

Composition of materials that make Turbine blades however, is now freely available and closely guarded secrets within corporations. And without it, the Chinese have had to take the tedious road of trail and error in figuring out their alloys.

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## MastanKhan

Oscar,

I believe that the chinese got the information from a source and that source was either a plant or that source's info was sabotaged by the manufacturer.

Metal fatigue after 50---100---200 hours is a terrible problem to face by any engineering complex and that of a critical part---it can literally break the back of the program.

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## Safriz

Oscar said:


> Considering that the delay in (and if) procuring the FC-20 is only increasing.. this may result in the PAF simply waiting it out for the Chinese engine. Otherwise there have been informal discussions with Rosoboronexport for the possibility of using a slightly uprated version of the Al-31FN.. which has been cleared for technology export but until an official RFQ is made and the Indian lobby goes to work..nothing can be said. Simple fact is that the Chinese are struggling not with Turbine or Compressor design.. where they actually have had some great progress.. but metallurgy. The problem with reverse engineering(or information extraction focused education) is that you catch up in those areas where information is available.. but lose out where it is not.
> Engine design is a widely taught subject and innovations in it are patented and available for understanding.
> 
> Composition of materials that make Turbine blades however, is now freely available and closely guarded secrets within corporations. And without it, the Chinese have had to take the tedious road of trail and error in figuring out their alloys.



I would disagree a bit...
The main problem the chinese are facing is 'mass production' and that due to issues with 'quality control'.
Like you said,they can copy or devise an indigenous procedure for creating compressor blades,same for turbine blades...
Compressor blades arent that pronlematic,but turbine blades are.
Companies like rolls royce grow turbine blades from single crystal and so do the chinese,but rolls royce has years if experience doing it,chinese dont have the experience.
The procedure Rolls rotce follows to make their turbine blades s a well guarded secret...as in how they select the crystal to 'seed' the metal alloy,and how the cool down the metal,as all these procedures effect the result.
Chinese procedure isnt mature yet and failures are high..
For example in a batch of 100 turbine blades grown from single crysral,Rolls royce's success rate will be 80% while chinese may not get 50% of the blades pass the quality check...
Both may be using same alloy and same scientific method,but the industrila method is different,as Rolls royce wont tell the chinese the intrucate details.
This low yeild iseffecting mass production,and until the time chinese mature their procedures by hit and try,we may not see mass produced chinese jet engines flying up there.

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## 帅的一匹

We will figure it out and mass production won't be long to wait.


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## araz

wanglaokan said:


> We will figure it out and mass production won't be long to wait.



It is precisely tbis fact and the time required to do so that is being discussed. No one denies that you will get tbere the question is when
araz


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## fatman17

in the past the wopen engines needed overhaul or replacement after 100 hours. that is now unacceptable. PAF is looking for atleast 500 hours of service before overhauls. so far the chinese have not been able to measure up to this benchmark.


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## SBD-3

J-10B testing, More smoothed prototype. Speculated to be the production model

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## raazh

hasnain0099 said:


> J-10B testing, More smoothed prototype. Speculated to be the production model
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]



It seems to be fixed on stands. With all the radars and rest of the stuff in other pictures, I reckon they are doing some Signal testing/ECM/ECCM or something similar.


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## Esc8781

raazh said:


> It seems to be fixed on stands. With all the radars and rest of the stuff in other pictures, I reckon they are doing some Signal testing/ECM/ECCM or something similar.


More likely Rcs, because the dishes are different size.

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## SBD-3

Here is an old interview by ACM Rao Qamar which gives considerable details about J-10 Issue. Coincides with the view of JFT project director that why Pakistan has no immediate intentions to buy J-10.


> Date Posted: 06-Aug-2009
> 
> Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 
> Interview: Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Pakistan Air Force Chief of the Air Staff
> 
> Farhan Bokhari JDW Correspondent
> 
> The PAF plans to eventually induct up to 250 JF-17 fighters, making the aircraft the backbone of its inventory. The first 'fully made in Pakistan' JF-17 is expected to be produced by the end of this year at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra, north of Islamabad. However, there is still a requirement for a more advanced fighter aircraft, as the PAF prepares to counter the future edge that may be acquired by the IAF once it completes the planned purchase of 126 multirole combat aircraft (MRCAs)
> 
> "We knew about this requirement of the Indian Air Force for 126 latest-generation fighter aircraft. Yes, it is an alarming development because when they get 126 such capable aircraft, then we also need to have something matching to counter that threat," ACM Qamar said.
> 
> For the PAF, not only will the induction of 14 used F-16 aircraft and 18 new F-16C/D aircraft figure prominently in narrowing the gap, but continuing negotiations with China to purchase up to 36 FC-20 fighter aircraft - designated the J-10 in China - will also play an important role.
> 
> ACM Qamar said the PAF has finalised the technical proposal for the FC-20 and informed the Chinese of its requirements.
> 
> 
> "[The technical proposal] is more or less finalised now. There are some changes that are required, which [the Chinese] are making," he said.
> 
> The next stage of the contract will involve financial negotiations between China and Pakistan. ACM Qamar believes that, following the signing of a contract, it will take two to two-and-a-half years before the first FC-20 aircraft is received.

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## air marshal



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## SBD-3

Much clearer picture, rumored to be RCS testing.

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## Donatello

hasnain0099 said:


> Much clearer picture, rumored to be RCS testing.





Yes, probably RCS/Electronic capability testing, as no humans can be seen nearby.


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## Leo7

Fc 20 is 4.5th generation air craft it meets all needs of Pakistan air force .Pakistan need a 4.5th generation air craft to counter air suportity of Sukoi 30 MkI


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## araz

Leo7 said:


> Fc 20 is 4.5th generation air craft it meets all needs of Pakistan air force .Pakistan need a 4.5th generation air craft to counter air suportity of Sukoi 30 MkI




The financial situation of Pakistan requires lateral thinking. Do you add to your inventory types with another plane, when for the cost of one of these you can induct 2 of JFTs.Please consider that it will not just be the plane but the whole infrastructure required for it.This obviously is time and money consuming as well as training intensive, for a force that is already struggling with 2 new platforms(JFT and F16sMLU) It is your bird and the money you spend goes into developing it further. There are also issues around J10B not having been inducted in PLAAF. As with new planes, PLAAF would fulfill theri own requirements and PAF would wait for the platform to mature. Thirdly what is the threat perception. The rafale is not on the scene, PAF is busy inducting the JFT and MLUed F16s need new planning due to improved capabilities. Do you need to take on newer inventory at this stage. PAF needs time to settle down with itsa new toys before it goes for J10.
Araz

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## IceCold

araz said:


> The financial situation of Pakistan requires lateral thinking. Do you add to your inventory types with another plane, when for the cost of one of these you can induct 2 of JFTs.Please consider that it will not just be the plane but the whole infrastructure required for it.This obviously is time and money consuming as well as training intensive, for a force that is already struggling with 2 new platforms(JFT and F16sMLU) It is your bird and the money you spend goes into developing it further. There are also issues around J10B not having been inducted in PLAAF. As with new planes, PLAAF would fulfill theri own requirements and PAF would wait for the platform to mature. Thirdly what is the threat perception. The rafale is not on the scene, PAF is busy inducting the JFT and MLUed F16s need new planning due to improved capabilities. Do you need to take on newer inventory at this stage. PAF needs time to settle down with itsa new toys before it goes for J10.
> Araz



JF is not the answer for everything even if 2 comes for the price of one. The financial situation as pointed out by you is the only reason PAF is not inducting J-10. I don't believe engine is the core issue here because the way i see it if JF-17 can fly with RD-93, so can J-10 with ALF-31. God bless zardari

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## araz

IceCold said:


> JF is not the answer for everything even if 2 comes for the price of one. The financial situation as pointed out by you is the only reason PAF is not inducting J-10. I don't believe engine is the core issue here because the way i see it if JF-17 can fly with RD-93, so can J-10 with ALF-31. God bless zardari



RD93 was an assurance that the chinese got or you so for all intents that issue becomes irrelevant. There is sense in the russians agreeing to sellRD 93 to you and that is the sheer number of units(500). That will never be the case with j10and if you look at the reviews,nowhere will you find that sort of projection. To the contrary the chinese themselves are reluctant buyers of AL31instead making strides towards getting WS10 ready for mass production. This would mean reduction in number ofunits required and therefore the russians would not like to annoy the Indians. 
I have never said that JFT is the answer to everything but it is something that is in your hands that can be developed to the extent you require it and so could become what you want it to be for you.Within the requirements of a country with little depth I think it ticks all the boxes you want it to be. The deficiencies could be covered byadding newer tech to the planerather than buying a djfferent plane. People on this boardc have gone wild at the thought of getting the Gripen which essentially is a plane in the class of JFT. So why not JFT itself.The current plane willevolve into a better one jn the next 10 yrs

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## BATMAN

First we need to lay out what we get from J-10, which 2 IFR fitted, Thunder can't provide?


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## Armstrong

araz said:


> The financial situation of Pakistan requires lateral thinking. Do you add to your inventory types with another plane, when for the cost of one of these you can induct 2 of JFTs.Please consider that it will not just be the plane but the whole infrastructure required for it.This obviously is time and money consuming as well as training intensive, for a force that is already struggling with 2 new platforms(JFT and F16sMLU) It is your bird and the money you spend goes into developing it further. There are also issues around J10B not having been inducted in PLAAF. As with new planes, PLAAF would fulfill theri own requirements and PAF would wait for the platform to mature. Thirdly what is the threat perception. The rafale is not on the scene, PAF is busy inducting the JFT and MLUed F16s need new planning due to improved capabilities. Do you need to take on newer inventory at this stage. PAF needs time to settle down with itsa new toys before it goes for J10.
> Araz



Not to mention the JF-17 provides substantial growth potential because of the very reason how it was designed i.e the body was developed separate from the equipment to speed things up & enough space was intentionally kept to not only allow it to be fitted what was available to the PAF at the time when the JF-17 was finally inducted as opposed to keep the design parameters fixated as per the equipment that was available at the time of the designing stage but also to allow for subsequent upgrades. A concept that, if I understood AM Shahid Lateef correctly, was borrowed from the F-16. I see no reason why the JF-17 cannot be, in the future, fitted with an AESA radar, IRST capability & if the Chinese come up with such an engine - a supercruise or thrust-vectoring capability.

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## araz

araz said:


> RD93 was an assurance that the chinese got or you so for all intents that issue becomes irrelevant. There is sense in the russians agreeing to sellRD 93 to you and that is the sheer number of units(500). That will never be the case with j10and if you look at the reviews,nowhere will you find that sort of projection. To the contrary the chinese themselves are reluctant buyers of AL31instead making strides towards getting WS10 ready for mass production. This would mean reduction in number ofunits required and therefore the russians would not like to annoy the Indians.
> I have never said that JFT is the answer to everything but it is something that is in your hands that can be developed to the extent you require it and so could become what you want it to be for you.Within the requirements of a country with little depth I think it ticks all the boxes you want it to be. The deficiencies could be covered byadding newer tech to the planerather than buying a djfferent plane. People on this boardc have gone wild at the thought of getting the Gripen which essentially is a plane in the class of JFT. So why not JFT itself.The current plane willevolve into a better one in the next 10 yrs.
> The financial mismanagement of Pakistan is entirely the reason for this austere measure. So while accepting this do you not think we need to think how the money for repayment will come. As to Zardari I thjnk he would be very happy if the deal were done in his time as he will get his cut from it so he wont lose out either way.
> Araz

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## araz

BATMAN said:


> First we need to lay out what we get from J-10, which 2 IFR fitted, Thunder can't provide?



We fitted IFR to mirages. Do you think we cant do it to JFt.In 2008 the retractable probe of Gripen was shown at IDEAS.Why cant we install it?
Araz

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## BATMAN

I'm trying to say that 2 IFR fitted thunders are much better option than one J-10.

I'm not countering any thing.


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## Bratva

araz said:


> We fitted IFR to mirages. Do you think we cant do it to JFt.In 2008 the retractable probe of Gripen was shown at IDEAS.Why cant we install it?
> Araz



That's the question why Retractable IFR idea was dropped and why Fixed IFR is appearing in block 2 why not in block 1?


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## Armstrong

mafiya said:


> That's the question why Retractable IFR idea was dropped and why Fixed IFR is appearing in block 2 why not in block 1?



Paiheeiii-Rokra-$$$-Money !


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## Bratva

Armstrong said:


> Paiheeiii-Rokra-$$$-Money !



It's a flawed logic. If it was for money, IFR would not have appeared in block 2

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## Armstrong

mafiya said:


> It's a flawed logic. If it was for money, IFR would not have appeared in block 2



Why ? Isn't the Block 2s going to be inducted after 50 or so JF-17s are inducted into the PAF ? Which means that the Block 1s would be gradually upgraded to the Block 2 standards hence a more acceptable management of our cash-flows instead of spending it big-time on the first 100 orders (Blocks 1 & 2s) in one go we've tried to spread the cost of the first 50 over their respective life-cycles instead of an initial higher investment. 

And so & so forth for Block 3 ! 

Or it could also be that we just didn't want to integrate so much into it before having more experience operating the bird for a number of years & after having flown enough sorties for us to be prized about the ins & outs of its performance parameters & any respective deficiencies. Perhaps we were looking into a more gradual easing in process with starting lightly & then building on it !


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## Donatello

JF-17 definitely needs an all round situation awareness system, like the Rafale's SPECTRA. It should have all the optronics fused with the rest of the avionics, so pilot can detect targets using radar and optics and anything in between, and deal with them on a priority basis.


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## Thorough Pro

I won't go in to details describing cost-benefit ratio and the flexibility and independance JFT provides to PAF, nor would am I trying to undermine the benefits of fewer platforms with regards to logistical and technical issues, however these are some other aspects that need due consideration rather than solely being focussed on the above two points only.

Despite all the flexibility and wide array of weaponary integrated or can be integrated in the future, JFT is a light weight fighter with limited range and does not provide a POTENT deep strike offensive capability, thus removes a worry from our adversaries.

As JFT becomes our mainstay fighter replacing A5, Mirage, and F7, on one hand it simplifys the logistical and technical issues, but on the other in a real war scenario, various types of enemy platforms will, be facing only one type of platform from our side, and when they find a weakness or method to effectively counter JFT, which sooner or later they will, then we will be left with nothing.

Having a variety of platforms in a war scenario with different capabilities provides depth and and breadth in both defensive and offensive capabilities and flexibility in choosing most appropriate platform to counter the attacking platforms sent by the adversay.





araz said:


> RD93 was an assurance that the chinese got or you so for all intents that issue becomes irrelevant. There is sense in the russians agreeing to sellRD 93 to you and that is the sheer number of units(500). That will never be the case with j10and if you look at the reviews,nowhere will you find that sort of projection. To the contrary the chinese themselves are reluctant buyers of AL31instead making strides towards getting WS10 ready for mass production. This would mean reduction in number ofunits required and therefore the russians would not like to annoy the Indians.
> I have never said that JFT is the answer to everything but it is something that is in your hands that can be developed to the extent you require it and so could become what you want it to be for you.Within the requirements of a country with little depth I think it ticks all the boxes you want it to be. The deficiencies could be covered byadding newer tech to the planerather than buying a djfferent plane. People on this boardc have gone wild at the thought of getting the Gripen which essentially is a plane in the class of JFT. So why not JFT itself.The current plane willevolve into a better one jn the next 10 yrs

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## Thorough Pro

Troll post of no value. Reported. Recomended for ban.




andyagain said:


> Pakistan armed forces
> 
> We pick fights and get mauled..but we still 'win'
> We fight using doped up crazies to blow up hotels and buildings..but we still 'win'
> 
> We win even if we lose..cos we are pakistan armed forces..its how it is..we are the best...dont say anything...except we always win

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## andyagain

et tu Thorough Pro 



Thorough Pro said:


> Troll post of no value. Reported. Recomended for ban.


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## Safriz

andyagain said:


> Pakistan armed forces
> 
> We pick fights and get mauled..but we still 'win'
> We fight using doped up crazies to blow up hotels and buildings..but we still 'win'
> 
> We win even if we lose..cos we are pakistan armed forces..its how it is..we are the best...dont say anything...except we always win



Now i know why you had a oerna ban on your previous account.
You do show signs if mental instability....

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## andyagain

Yes Safriz,

I apologise for stating unfalsehoods..I shld be more circumspect




Safriz said:


> Now i know why you had a oerna ban on your previous account.
> You do show signs if mental instability....


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## SBD-3

Look at the J-10B in the back, seems slightly different from J-10Bs we've seen til now.

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## shuttler

hasnain0099 said:


> Look at the J-10B in the back, seems slightly different from J-10Bs we've seen til now.





that one at the back was a F-7 &#65288;J-7 export version)&#65306;







see this super low pass of J-10 and abrupt climb and turn demonstrating superb maneuverability&#65306;

http://www.tudou.com


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## WAQAS119

shuttler said:


> see this super low pass of J-10 and abrupt climb and turn demonstrating superb maneuverability&#65306;
> 
> http://www.tudou.com



Low pass with landing gear open?


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## shuttler

WAQAS119 said:


> Low pass with landing gear open?



but it was not landing and it was the maneuverability that is all about!

okay! lets take points off the lowering of landing gear!


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## araz

mafiya said:


> That's the question why Retractable IFR idea was dropped and why Fixed IFR is appearing in block 2 why not in block 1?



Money ,the transfer of tech to the chinese and roughly 200lbs in wt which is added on to the plane. I personally think PAF has doubts about its utility and like the chinese prefers a fixed probe to begin with.
Araz

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## 帅的一匹

I think the front fuselage of J10b is more like Su30.


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## 帅的一匹

J10b is a 4++ fighter, which means RCS indicator is more important than J10A. You can't just mount a fixed IFR on a semi stealthy fighter like J10b. More importantly, J10b cost much higher than a J10a.


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## araz

wanglaokan said:


> J10b is a 4++ fighter, which means RCS indicator is more important than J10A. You can't just mount a fixed IFR on a semi stealthy fighter like J10b. More importantly, J10b cost much higher than a J10a.



To the best of my knowledge no chinese plane has yet demonstrated a retractable IFR Probe. Please do correct me if I am wrong.I dont think you would worry too much about the RCS of a simple IFR probe when you are carrying external weapons on pylons.Hence your point is yet to be proven.
Araz

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## Pfpilot

araz said:


> To the best of my knowledge no chinese plane has yet demonstrated a retractable IFR Probe. Please do correct me if I am wrong.I dont think you would worry too much about the RCS of a simple IFR probe when you are carrying external weapons on pylons.Hence your point is yet to be proven.
> Araz



In the end, none of the current generation aircraft can be made into low observable aircraft without the kind of investment that would be better spent producing a completely new aircraft. A single vertical stabilizer, canards and the carriage of weapons and fuel tanks on the wings would butcher most, if not all, incremental advantages provided by RCS reduction measures on the j-10. It's one thing to reduce the RCS of the original Flanker, which seemed to have been designed with an almost comical lack of interest in low observability (LO). But in the case of j-10 and Euro-canards, the RCS is unlikely to be large, relatively, to begin with. Since these aircraft are unlikely to be subject to wholesale design changes at this stage, it is more a cursory attempt by aircraft manufacturers to swindle more funds from export customers and domestic governments in the name of a radical leap in capabilities. 

A retractable probe on it's own may have low observability advantages, but when installed on an aircraft with protrusions and missiles everywhere, it becomes a largely irrelevant piece of the puzzle. On the likes of the f-35, a hidden probe helps keep the RCS at an acceptable threshold, but that is only because the aircraft was designed with LO as a major requirement and adhered to it in every facet of design and development. On the other hand, the primary goal of neither the j-10 or the jf-17 was ever to disappear off the adversary's radar.

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## highlanders

araz said:


> To the best of my knowledge no chinese plane has yet demonstrated a retractable IFR Probe. Please do correct me if I am wrong.I dont think you would worry too much about the RCS of a simple IFR probe when you are carrying external weapons on pylons.Hence your point is yet to be proven.
> Araz



The J-15 and J-16 both have retractable IFR probes but in J-10's case, I don't think its nose has sufficient unused internal space rfor mounting fully retractable probes.


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## Najam Khan

@Pfpilot; Good analysis sir!

In addition to that, producing more JF-17 for PAF was the first requirement, which is mostly filled by first two batches of JF-17. The reason behind not changing much in these two batches is to avoid extra effort in testing newly added components. Refueling probes on second block will be added but only when avionics and other sensors related changes are done. 

Right now there is no problem with JF-17's on-station time (hence the need for refueling probe is not mandatory). JF-17 has visited Pasni (from Kamra) few times with 3 fuel tanks, this is enough range we need from an air-defence fighter.

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## Windjammer

J-10 Going through 360 Deg. RCS tests .

[video]http://www.top81.cn/top81bbs/article.php?cid=1&rootid=4606095[/video]

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## Bratva

Najam Khan said:


> @Pfpilot; Good analysis sir!
> 
> In addition to that, producing more JF-17 for PAF was the first requirement, which is mostly filled by first two batches of JF-17. The reason behind not changing much in these two batches is to avoid extra effort in testing newly added components. Refueling probes on second block will be added but only when avionics and other sensors related changes are done.
> 
> Right now there is no problem with JF-17's on-station time (hence the need for refueling probe is not mandatory). JF-17 has visited Pasni (from Kamra) few times with 3 fuel tanks, this is enough range we need from an air-defence fighter.



I think JF-17 time without drop tank is 3 hours?


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## Najam Khan

mafiya said:


> I think JF-17 time without drop tank is 3 hours?


Its less than that, 2/2hr 30min. Endurance varies from mission load and mission profile (Hi-Hi-Hi/Hi-Lo-Hi etc).

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## araz

highlanders said:


> The J-15 and J-16 both have retractable IFR probes but in J-10's case, I don't think its nose has sufficient unused internal space rfor mounting fully retractable probes.



It is simply a case of the costs involved in making the changes and the benefits that this change brings to the plane.At this point in time this change has been considered of little benefit and has not been made. Later on if a benefit is to be had Both PAF anadPPLAAFwill bring about these changes.
Araz

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## SBD-3

Looking sleeker than prototypes

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## Meejee

Following link is an interesting read on the RCS. There is a table that shows various platforms (don't know how genuine it is) but just wondering, where would the J-10 be placed on the list. Here's the article

Radar Cross Section (RCS)


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## 帅的一匹

hasnain0099 said:


> Looking sleeker than prototypes


J10B is really cool looking guy, even sharper than J20.

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## Thunder_Rider

hasnain0099 said:


> Looking sleeker than prototypes



J-10B looks Awsome


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## Storm Force

J10 GOT BATTERED BY THIS BELOW 42-0 IN RECENT plaaf excercises 

THE J11B


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## abdulbarijan

Storm Force said:


> J10 GOT BATTERED BY THIS BELOW 42-0 IN RECENT plaaf excercises
> 
> THE J11B



Is it just me or the entire Indian body of posters is taking this claim as true ... 

i mean *I never saw our friends endorsing the 13:1 claims on J-11, the claims for multiple locks on Su-30 MKK's and SU-30 MKV's by basic J-10's*....

Suddenly when its J-10 on the receiving end .... *Even the chinese whose claims used to be "unofficial" "hyped" are now "Hard facts"*  ... no offense to you Mr. storm force

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## SBD-3

Storm Force said:


> J10 GOT BATTERED BY THIS BELOW 42-0 IN RECENT plaaf excercises
> 
> THE J11B


its J-15, see the canards.


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## Donatello

Storm Force said:


> J10 GOT BATTERED BY THIS BELOW 42-0 IN RECENT plaaf excercises
> 
> THE J11B




This poor fellow doesn't even know that highly upgraded j-11s went against 10 year old J-10As.

J-10Bs are advanced, not to mention, that Chinese are developing J-10s for a reason....and this exercise will actually help filter the shortfalls.


Duh!


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## Storm Force

Unless you match the J11B TWR raw power of EW suites & jammers which comes from twin egines THE single ENGINED J10 wil struggle to match the J11...

This is why the PLAAF wil have more twin egines J11 J15 J20 J8 then single engines J10 J7 & J31 

J10 maybe advanced enough to fight off F7 and other single enngined FIGHTERS but the RUSSIAN designed flankers are a deadly opponent


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## ababeel22

j31 single engine 


Storm Force said:


> Unless you match the J11B TWR raw power of EW suites & jammers which comes from twin egines THE single ENGINED J10 wil struggle to match the J11...
> 
> This is why the PLAAF wil have more twin egines J11 J15 J20 J8 then single engines J10 J7 & J31
> 
> J10 maybe advanced enough to fight off F7 and other single enngined FIGHTERS but the RUSSIAN designed flankers are a deadly opponent


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## Storm Force

J31 

will be built in smaller nos 

THE J20 and the J11 will form the back bone of the PLAAF


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## 帅的一匹

Storm Force said:


> Unless you match the J11B TWR raw power of EW suites & jammers which comes from twin egines THE single ENGINED J10 wil struggle to match the J11...
> 
> This is why the PLAAF wil have more twin egines J11 J15 J20 J8 then single engines J10 J7 & J31
> 
> J10 maybe advanced enough to fight off F7 and other single enngined FIGHTERS but the RUSSIAN designed flankers are a deadly opponent


J10b is state of art platform, which has RCS less than 1 square meter. What is MKI'S RCS? 11 OR 15 square meters?


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## 帅的一匹

self delete.


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## SQ8

Storm Force said:


> Unless you match the J11B TWR raw power of EW suites & jammers which comes from twin egines THE single ENGINED J10 wil struggle to match the J11...
> 
> This is why the PLAAF wil have more twin egines J11 J15 J20 J8 then single engines J10 J7 & J31
> 
> *J10 maybe advanced enough to fight off F7 *and other single enngined FIGHTERS but the RUSSIAN designed flankers are a deadly opponent



And this should tell you that this gentleman(or boy) has no idea what is being talked about.
That the J-10B with an AESA will be better to fight off mig-15's because its single engined.
That it was an impossible feat that the F-16 brought down Mig-29's since .. oh my lord.. the Mig has two engines and the F-16 has one.
That it was impossible for the Mig-21 to bring down the F-4.. must have been multiple flukes... that it was able to beat a twin engined fighter.

That oh my word.. the F-16 ends up scoring multiple kills on F-15's which have bigger radars and more power/juice/jizz than them in Red Flag since the 80s.

That F-16's find themselves being outclassed by F-7P's(which dont even have a display in the cockpit!!) in High Mark exercises thanks to clever tactics that put the F-16's radar with its BVR weapons guessing.

That MIG-21 Bisons with MUCH less power than F-15's in their radars.. and with .. wait for it.. A SINGLE engine were able to give hell to Eagle's in Cope India..

Talking nonsense takes little effort.
Reading wikipedia even less.. 
Coming up with conclusions based on posts of others.. NONE.

Posting repeated arguments on the same topic over and over the forum on topics that have little relation to and have been debunked again and again and again, will have you banned now without an infraction, without a warning.

I expect you to not post, really.. NOT post. but read up on the history of aerial warfare.. on the effectiveness of radar systems in actual combat from 1960-2010..In magazines and articles OTHER than wikipedia.. before coming to post here again.
Really, Because unlike others.. who come here to troll and make some effort of it in an embarrassing way.
You actually start out quite well(like another member who is known for his similar efforts in religion Z) and end up acting like a parrot saying the same thing AGAIN and AGAIN without understanding, or comprehending the other's point and without stopping if you disagree.
Learn to be a good poster, because your persistance should make you one.

As for now.

*Discussions on J-10 vs other choices is BANNED on this thread for now unless its between the TT's.*

Any further posts will lead to pink paint.

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## 帅的一匹

Any one could upload some new pictures of J10b? I strongly agree with Oscar that Single engine or duo engine is not the determined indicator in the survival of air combat, it depends on the avionics/EWS/RCS/WEAPON/Pilot Experience/RADAR RANGE and so on.

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## 帅的一匹

http://tuku.military.china.com/military/html/2012-12-17/211128_2284432.htm#pic
J10b doing RCS test with weapon load

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## The A-5

wanglaokan said:


> http://tuku.military.china.com/military/html/2012-12-17/211128_2284432.htm#pic
> J10b doing RCS test with weapon load



I think RCS testing is done by hoisting a prototype some 40-50ft high on a supported mast for getting
accurate readings. What are the other types to test RCS?


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## Luftwaffe

Storm Force said:


> J31
> 
> will be built in smaller nos THE J20 and the J11 will form the back bone of the PLAAF



How did you assume that on the contrary J-31 could be in more numbers provided it is Selected. 
It is a Prototype just like Boeing X-32... might as well be rejected in favor of something else, we do not know yet. J-20 seems to be an advance Project I consider it to be a F-22 caliber Project.

Sorry moderators, last post then back to J-10...


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## SBD-3



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## Kompromat

Sleek & Sexy.

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## Armstrong

Aeronaut said:


> Sleek & Sexy.



Astagfirullah...bhabi nu pataa chal giyaa naa that you're saying that about another 'beauty' & she'd have you lynched !

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## Kompromat

Armstrong said:


> Astagfirullah...bhabi nu pataa chal giyaa naa that you're saying that about another 'beauty' & she'd have you lynched !



Skinned alive

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## Thunder_Rider

J-10B look Awsome........ Muuuuuuaaaaaaaah !!


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## sancho

wanglaokan said:


> J10b is state of art platform, which has RCS less than 1 square meter.



Source please!


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## 帅的一匹

I can't disclose you the actual Chinese source for, the actual RCS is even smaller than 1 square meter.


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## Storm Force

Didnt realise 

That the single MOST IMPORTANT aspect of a fighter was RCS 

Do we ignore TWR. radar strength, EW suites and jammers and WEAPONS load witth different seekers. 

F15 of USA. ISRASLI & JAPANEASE air forces have massive RCS DUE to their 30 year old design. YET they are the AIR SUPREMACY fighter of choice for all these major air powers way ahead of the smaller F16 FLEETS. and the all depoly F15 & F16 combo fleets. 

RCS is important but RCS wont bring down the enemy for that you need the other factors


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## SBD-3



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## Thunder_Rider

Aeronaut said:


> Skinned alive [/QUOTE
> 
> LOL


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## sancho

The following is a re-post from the MP forum, I don't know if the translation is correct or not, but maybe some of the Chinese members can say something about it:



> *J-11 crushes J-10 in PLAAF exercise*
> 
> Basically they held the largest air force mock combat exercise this year, and the results were overwhelmingly in favour of J-11. The training exercise was similar in scale to American's Red Flag. One particular J-11 pilot managed to accumulate over 42 mock kills over its J-10 opponent while only being "shot down" once. It's interesting since the results were complete reverse of just a few years ago when J-10 always manage to gain the upper hand. The past two years, units flying the J-11 has consistently outperform their opponents.



????? ????? -????


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## cnleio

New J-10B with Russia AL-31F jet engine, not China WS-10. WTF?! still back to old time, hard to export J-10B to foreign weapon market by using Russia jet engine. BIG PROBLEM &#65281;&#65281;&#65281;

AL-31F or WS-10 jet engine, to decide J-10B's future.


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## Mani2020

Storm Force said:


> Didnt realise
> 
> That the single MOST IMPORTANT aspect of a fighter was RCS
> 
> Do we ignore TWR. radar strength, EW suites and jammers and WEAPONS load witth different seekers.
> 
> *F15 of USA. ISRASLI & JAPANEASE air forces have massive RCS DUE to their 30 year old design. **YET they are the AIR SUPREMACY fighter of choice for all these major air powers way ahead of the smaller F16 FLEETS. and the all depoly F15 & F16 combo fleets. *
> 
> RCS is important but RCS wont bring down the enemy for that you need the other factors



Once again wrong USAF still have a twice as much fleet of f-16s compared to f-15s ...the f-16 fleets stand for over 1000 aircrafts for USAF while the f-15 stands for just under 500 out of which there are f-15 egales and f-15 strike eagle . ALL f-15eagle aircrafts (that are the most basic version of f-15) of USAF are modified to remain in service by 2025 and the strike eagle were introduced much later around 1988 and were not inducted before 90s so by no means they have 30 years old airframe like you are suggesting . Strike eagle has relatively low RCS compared to the basic version .So here goes one point 

Second point israelis too operate higher number of f-16s compared to f-15s .... almost 40% of their inventory of f-15s is of strike eagles again the airframe is not that old as you are suggesting...all the f-15s of israel has been extensively modified ones and quite different from the original variants .Here goes another point 

currently just 3 operators for F-15 eagles other than US 

Last but not the least f-16 is the still most sold aircraft of US and easily leaves f-15 sales behind ...even a countries like turkey are using them in large numbers

And at your f-15 f-16 combo point apart form israel, south korea and singapore nobody operates a combo of f-15 and f-16s , the later one in a very small numbers

Japanese don't operate f-16s

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## SBD-3

Mani2020 said:


> Japanese don't operate f-16s


I think he was referring to F-2 aka Jap Falcon


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## Mani2020

hasnain0099 said:


> I think he was referring to F-2 aka Jap Falcon



i think it should be considered a different aircraft considering that its inspired from f-16 but still has different avionics package, size, RCS, aerodynamics, payload ,different thrust to weight ratio etc etc 

like a 25% larger wing area
composite materials used to reduce overall weight and radar signature
longer and wider nose to accommodate a phased-array radar
larger tailplane
larger air intake
capabilities for four ASM-1 or ASM-2 anti-ship missiles, four AAMs, and additional fuel tanks

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## Thunder_Rider

cnleio said:


> New J-10B with Russia AL-31F jet engine, not China WS-10. WTF?! still back to old time, hard to export J-10B to foreign weapon market by using Russia jet engine. BIG PROBLEM &#65281;&#65281;&#65281;
> 
> AL-31F or WS-10 jet engine, to decide J-10B's future.



Dont Worry Dude, China will export J-10Bs to Pakistan with WS-10 Engines.
Maybe these Engines are only used in prototypes not in any Production batch.


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## SBD-3



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## 帅的一匹

I damn love this bird, hope it will be inducted in PAF at year 2014. Said it will pack WS10A from the third batch.

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## araz

I am torn between JFT and J10. My heart tells me that it would be best to have a more powerful engine to JFT with 2 additional hard points and an AESA radar in at least 50 fighters and that would be our hi of the HI-Lo combo. We can then progress on to J31 around 2020.This would be a more economical way of dealing with our fighter gap. However my mind tells me that the variation and the slightly bigger radar with a larger range would be a much better option .
However the debate goes on.
Araz

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## SBD-3

Ultra large pics...

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## alimobin memon

araz said:


> I am torn between JFT and J10. My heart tells me that it would be best to have a more powerful engine to JFT with 2 additional hard points and an AESA radar in at least 50 fighters and that would be our hi of the HI-Lo combo. We can then progress on to J31 around 2020.This would be a more economical way of dealing with our fighter gap. However my mind tells me that the variation and the slightly bigger radar with a larger range would be a much better option .
> However the debate goes on.
> Araz



J10 is not necessary , The avionics found in j10A are same for jfthunder the difference is range and power. This explains that the upgrade package j10b can mostly be implemented on jft.


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## cnleio

J-10B is a beautiful single engine jet, China version of F-16 jet. In the J-10B platform, will appear J-10C,J-10Detc updated multi-role fighter.

Future J-10B will become the main export jet of China weapons into the international weapon market.


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## Wasif A.K.

alimobin memon said:


> J10 is not necessary , The avionics found in j10A are same for jfthunder the difference is range and power. This explains that the upgrade package j10b can mostly be implemented on jft.



U yourself have mentioned in ur post why the need of j10's is a "serious must to have" now for the PAF. The thing with jf17 is that, no matter what upgrades be thrown at it, it would still remain to be a light weight cost effective platform yes it can still accel in many areas but where it will not, we will need to add something which does, and this is where the J10's will come into the game handy as potent oppressors!


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## S.U.R.B.

hasnain0099 said:


>



Too many birds around the AC.A pilot's nightmare.

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## baron von richtofen

probably in the near future ..


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## ANG

Wasif A.K. said:


> U yourself have mentioned in ur post why the need of j10's is a "serious must to have" now for the PAF. The thing with jf17 is that, no matter what upgrades be thrown at it, it would still remain to be a light weight cost effective platform yes it can still accel in many areas but where it will not, we will need to add something which does, and this is where the J10's will come into the game handy as potent oppressors!



Hi, moreover the IAF just signed a deal for 42 more SU-30MKIs, which will put their grand total at 272 Su-30MKIs, not to mention their upgraded MiG-29s, LCAs, and Mirage-2000s. The PAF will get overrun in a few hours facing those numbers, even with JF-17s and 40 J-10Bs (if they can ever afford them). This is sad, really sad, the state of Pakistan's economy, that they cannot even invest in their first line of defense.

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## Wasif A.K.

ANG said:


> Hi, moreover the IAF just signed a deal for 42 more SU-30MKIs, which will put their grand total at 272 Su-30MKIs, not to mention their upgraded MiG-29s, LCAs, and Mirage-2000s. The PAF will get overrun in a few hours facing those numbers, even with JF-17s and 40 J-10Bs (if they can ever afford them). This is sad, really sad, the state of Pakistan's economy, that they cannot even invest in their first line of defense.



HI MAY PEACE OF ALLAH BE UPON YOU FRIEND 

Yes it makes me sad also to see how much we are struggling to even just replace the old F7'S AND MIRAGES. I have seen people talk about how we are leaping two steps ahead with the induction of JF 17's but what bothers me is that even though it is ryt that we are moving ahead, may be two steps or even three steps altogether but the problem i see is that our Rival is moving three-4 times ahead of us with the ever increasing numbers of MKI'S and Rafale's in large numbers to be inducted soon aswell, it really is a tough time to with stand and put a deterrant force in contrast with our rivals who are not increasing in quantity only but in quality as well.

1)The possible solution i see here is to keep updating JF17's To their far far limits...as much as we can...
2)Induct a a few sqd. of advanced J10's say 2-6 and keep them under Evaluation with new updated comparitive technologies as well ( if we can) 
3) Ultimately Work on a stealth fighter with the collabration of Chinese, and make an ULTIMATE ALL ROUNDER UPGRADABLE performing fighter that can remain with us for thirty to fourty years excelling and achieving and exceeding every single parameter that is calculated for a fighter aircraft: Range, Payload, Avionics, Maintainability, TWR ratio, Multirole weaponry, Stealth, Cruise. (This is just my wish cause i know with the current economic and internal conditions even the second point seems to look

unobtainable, let alone the third one for a stealth 

But never the less, though i may am sad too but I am still not hopeless... : )


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## alikazmi007

ANG said:


> Hi, moreover the IAF just signed a deal for 42 more SU-30MKIs, which will put their grand total at 272 Su-30MKIs, not to mention their upgraded MiG-29s, LCAs, and Mirage-2000s. The PAF will get overrun in a few hours facing those numbers, even with JF-17s and 40 J-10Bs (if they can ever afford them). This is sad, really sad, the state of Pakistan's economy, that they cannot even invest in their first line of defense.



Its ok brother man have some faith, Numbers are not the entire story. Remember in '65, we handed their *** to them. A highly motivated and trained guy with a stick trumps the other jack *** with the sword all the time!

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## SQ8

alikazmi007 said:


> Its ok brother man have some faith, Numbers are not the entire story. Remember in '65, we handed their *** to them. A highly motivated and trained guy with a stick trumps the other jack *** with the sword all the time!



No we didn't actually, we could have.. but we did not.
Better to learn from the mistakes made in the past then thump chests over it.


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## sancho

alimobin memon said:


> J10 is not necessary , The avionics found in j10A are same for jfthunder the difference is range and power. This explains that the upgrade package j10b can mostly be implemented on jft.



First of all there are certain advantages by design itself that the J10 offer, but more importantly is, will the Chinese be ready to offer JF 17 the upgraded AESA or avionics of J10? JF 17 block 1 didn't have the same KJ 10 radar as the J10A right?
So even if we expect AESA radar and IRST in JF 17 Block 3, it doesn't mean it has to be the same versions as in the J10. That means if PAF wants more capable fighters and techs, J10B could be a good choice above the JF 17, but if they believe that the difference isn't that much and that a JF 17 Block 3 could bridge the gap to the next decade till a 5th gen fighter might be available for PAF, J10B is wasted money.

China is not the US and will put less restictions on Pakistan and it's forces, but China isn't dumb either, they know how to make money and exporting J10 even more important to them, than exporting JF 17, which they see as an export fighter anyway. That's why they will keep an eye on how much Chinese parts there will be in JF 17 (radar, weapons, avionics and of course the engines in future), or of course on what technical limits it must have, to make J10B more interesting. 

I said the same as Araz often before and think PAF should compromise and stick to JF 17 in higher numbers. Maybe not the most capable solution, but more suitable to PAFs finacial situation today and in the long run, which might free some more money to buy a 5th gen fighter later. 
Pakistan as a whole could benefit from waiting even more than, procuring a foreign J10B today, since your defence industy could use available fund to develop an own AESA radar for example, that in future could not only be used in JF 17 B3, but in an upgraded version even in J31. That would not only increase commonality between JF 17 and J31, besides possibly the engines and weapons, but also would increase the indigenous content in both fighters.

JUST AS AN EXAMPLE, not as a discussion point!

LCA MK2 is meant to get an indigenous AESA radar and certain avionics, that later are aimed to be improved for AMCA. The Kaveri/Snecma engine (if developed) is aimed not only for AMCA, but also for LCA upgrades, so in both fighters can benefit from common techs at a point, which reduces costs and increases the indigenous content by far.

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## SQ8

sancho said:


> First of all there are certain advantages by design itself that the J10 offer, but more importantly is, will the Chinese be ready to offer JF 17 the upgraded AESA or avionics of J10? *JF 17 block 1 didn't have the same KJ 10 radar as the J10A right?*.



I think there is a big confusion on the KJL series and how the KJL-7 and 10 differ.
They are inherently along the same lines of thought that went into the APG-63 and the APG-66.
The APG-63 is incapable of fitting into the nose of the F-16 and also has differing power and cooling requirements.

The KJL-10 is the Chinese equivalent of what would be the APG-70...while the KJL-7 is the equivalent of the APG-68 albeit with a non-existent SAR mode(software) and reduced capabilities in the GMTI modes.
It has been deemed equivalent to the APG-68 or in some cases better in the A2A and sorting modes.
Again, published data provides highly sketchy and inaccurate details of the system.
The KJL-10 system is no longer being pursued by the Chinese in favor of AESA.

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## sancho

Oscar said:


> I think there is a big confusion on the KJL series and how the KJL-7 and 10 differ.
> They are inherently along the same lines of thought that went into the APG-63 and the APG-66.
> *The APG-63 is incapable of fitting into the nose of the F-16 and also has differing power and cooling requirements*.
> 
> The KJL-10 is the Chinese equivalent of what would be the APG-70...while the KJL-7 is the equivalent of the APG-68 albeit with a non-existent SAR mode(software) and reduced capabilities in the GMTI modes.



But the nose difference between an F15 and an F16 is obviously much bigger than between J10 and JF17, which makes it possible to integrate a (if at all) slightly modified KJ10 and not a less capable KJ7 to JF 17. So there are limitations on what China provides as well and it will be interesting to see, if the AESA/PESA they offer with J10B, will be the same that would be available to JF 17 B3.


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## Nishan_101

So how much we are getting I am sure that everyone wants to have about 70 in PAF service till 2015...


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> But the nose difference between an F15 and an F16 is obviously much bigger than between J10 and JF17, which makes it possible to integrate a (if at all) *slightly modified KJ10 and not a less capable KJ7 *to JF 17. So there are limitations on what China provides as well and it will be interesting to see, if the AESA/PESA they offer with J10B, will be the same that would be available to JF 17 B3.



Ill reiterate , that the difference between the KLJ-10 and KLJ-7 is now very much in terms of dish diameter only and not in terms of capability. Whatever improvements APART from dish size have been incorporated on the JL-10 radar are also implemented on the KLJ-10 system.






I think there has been a general impression upon members due to the non-purchase of J-10B that the Chinese are in some way giving the PAF less capable systems. This is fairly incorrect. The reasons for not purchasing the J-10B or the Chinese giving the PAF the J-10 or the PAF getting the HQ-9/10 series have little to do with technology restrictions but with availability of funds.

Most if not all of the PAF's current purchases are on loans including the JF-17's factory setup. So even being a joint development, we "invested" loans from the Chinese into the program. The Chinese were/are ready to provide further loans to purchase the J-10B, implement an all AESA solution on all JF-17 blocks and offer the Shenyang Fifth generation aircraft whenever its ready as long as the PAF pays for it(takes loans from the Chinese).
It must also be clear that the Chinese do NOT give military aid to Pakistan like the US does. It is not a bank account to use on whatever as long as restrictions are followed. It is a loan based on goodwill that lets the Pakistan military buy whatever it wishes to from the Chinese weapons industry without any restrictions or otherwise.
However, while these are soft loans they are still loans and they do warrant a monthly payment.
Currently the economic conditions of Pakistan have left it struggling to meet even the interest on these loans ..leave the principal amount. So while even today the Chinese are willing to provide more loans to purchase whatever Pakistan likes since to them its a win-win as the money goes back into their system. The PAF is not willing to risk jeopardizing its goodwill with the Chinese if it can manage to hold a certain level with its current purchases in the hopes that economic conditions will improve where it may make a purchase later of a better system than the J-10B and again up the ante.

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## SBD-3

Oscar said:


> Most if not all of the PAF's current purchases are on loans including the JF-17's factory setup. So even being a joint development, we "invested" loans from the Chinese into the program. The Chinese were/are ready to provide further loans to purchase the J-10B, implement an all AESA solution on all JF-17 blocks and *offer the Shenyang Fifth generation aircraft *whenever its ready as long as the PAF pays for it(takes loans from the Chinese).


I mean i really find it confusing because Shenyang's J-31 is a privately funded project (much like JF-17 or F-15SE) but it appears that AVIC is also not involved with with the project. Even at current Zhuhai airshow the supposedly model of J-31 had a different canopy design and more interestingly still "under development" by AVIC professionals. Moreover, we did have some rumors from Chinese fora that a multirole stealth program was underdevelopment at CAC. Further precisely we later heard that PAF officials atcually visited Chengdu where they were briefed upon the development project of CAC. I find it difficult to digest that PAF would risk J-31 when she has been doing satisfactory business with CAC.

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## SQ8

hasnain0099 said:


> I mean i really find it confusing because Shenyang's J-31 is a privately funded project (much like JF-17 or F-15SE) but it appears that AVIC is also not involved with with the project. Even at current Zhuhai airshow the supposedly model of J-31 had a different canopy design and more interestingly still "under development" by AVIC professionals. Moreover, we did have some rumors from Chinese fora that a multirole stealth program was underdevelopment at CAC. Further precisely we later heard that PAF officials atcually visited Chengdu where they were briefed upon the development project of CAC. I find it difficult to digest that PAF would risk J-31 when she has been doing satisfactory business with CAC.



PAF has also done business with Shenyang. It deals with CATIC directly and through them Chengdu and Shenyang.
In the past due to the F-7 and JF-17 programs the PAF has dealing within chengdu. Given requirements it will deal with Shenyang.

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## SBD-3

Oscar said:


> PAF has also done business with Shenyang. It deals with CATIC directly and through them Chengdu and Shenyang.
> In the past due to the F-7 and JF-17 programs the PAF has dealing within chengdu. Given requirements it will deal with Shenyang.


But then again PAF's interest in SAC's project is still a "what if". And it wouldn't it also be foolish to think that CAC would let SAC steal a project which would have more business prospect (since J-20 will see limited induction against a MR 5th Gen) and a good customer who promote her international goodwill?


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## Dazzler

hasnain0099 said:


> But then again PAF's interest in SAC's project is still a "what if". And it wouldn't it also be foolish to think that CAC would let SAC steal a project which would have more business prospect (since J-20 will see limited induction against a MR 5th Gen) and a good customer who promote her international goodwill?



Our F-6 farmers were made by Shangyang,, so we have been doing business with them since 1965, CAC only stepped in during 80s  There is no rivalry between the two, CAC is known recently for their innovation and original design (excluding the F-7 series off course) whereas Shangyang is more known for copying, modifying Russian Sukhois, borrowing intel from existing and tested designs.

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## SQ8

hasnain0099 said:


> But then again PAF's interest in SAC's project is still a "what if". And it wouldn't it also be foolish to think that CAC would let SAC steal a project which would have more business prospect (since J-20 will see limited induction against a MR 5th Gen) and a good customer who promote her international goodwill?



That depends entirely on the PAF's financial position in the next five years.

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## Thunder_Rider

cnleio said:


> J-10B is a beautiful single engine jet, China version of F-16 jet. In the J-10B platform, will appear J-10C,J-10Detc updated multi-role fighter.
> 
> Future J-10B will become the main export jet of China weapons into the international weapon market.



Really ? 
Well it looks more like a China's Single Engined Typhoon rather then the US F-16


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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...3818-j-10-fighter-photos-videos-thread-7.html

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## sancho

Oscar said:


> Ill reiterate , that the difference between the KLJ-10 and KLJ-7 is now very much in terms of dish diameter only and not in terms of capability. Whatever improvements APART from dish size have been incorporated on the JL-10 radar are also implemented on the KLJ-10 system.



Good if that is the case, sadly we don't have similar KJ10 specs, but why would the Chinese develop 2 different puls doppler radars for 2 fighters, if only the diameter size is the difference? They could have simply downsized the KJ 10, or used a bigger KJ7 for their own fighters right?



Oscar said:


> I think there has been a general impression upon members due to the non-purchase of J-10B that the Chinese are in some way giving the PAF less capable systems.


More that there is a difference between J10 and JF17, although both were mainly developed by China and that China neither seems to procure the latter for their own forces, while PAF should procure J10. And that has nothing to do with the budget or loans, I am aware of that, but as I said earlier, J10 makes only sense for PAF if there is a clear operational advantage, but if the only difference as you say is the design, while techs, payload capabilities and weapons will be the same, I agree with Araz that J31 offers more than J10B.
I just think, there must be technical capabilities that makes J10B different to a future JF17 B3 as well and where China does draw a line between both fighters.

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## Viper0011.

sancho said:


> Good if that is the case, sadly we don't have similar KJ10 specs, but why would the Chinese develop 2 different puls doppler radars for 2 fighters, if only the diameter size is the difference? They could have simply downsized the KJ 10, or used a bigger KJ7 for their own fighters right?



The KJ 10 was designed for a larger nose and diameter. The KJ 7 is a miniaturized version of the KJ 10, specifically built for JF-17. It is the same technology and the architecture. Just reduced range and processing due to the smaller size.

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## A1Kaid

When is Pakistan receiving the J-10? 416 pages later and Pakistan still hasn't received these J-10's...

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## itaskol

A1Kaid said:


> When is Pakistan receiving the J-10? 416 pages later and Pakistan still hasn't received these J-10's...


it will take time.
till now china itself only purchase 4 J10b.
the first order is only 4...

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## Alfa-Fighter

itaskol said:


> it will take time.
> till now china itself only purchase 4 J10b.
> the first order is only 4...



It take time to develop plane , its not develop over night.....


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## Inception-06

sancho said:


> Good if that is the case, sadly we don't have similar KJ10 specs, but why would the Chinese develop 2 different puls doppler radars for 2 fighters, if only the diameter size is the difference? They could have simply downsized the KJ 10, or used a bigger KJ7 for their own fighters right?
> 
> 
> More that there is a difference between J10 and JF17, although both were mainly developed by China and that China neither seems to procure the latter for their own forces, while PAF should procure J10. And that has nothing to do with the budget or loans, I am aware of that, but as I said earlier, J10 makes only sense for PAF if there is a clear operational advantage, but if the only difference as you say is the design, while techs, payload capabilities and weapons will be the same, I agree with Araz that J31 offers more than J10B.
> I just think, there must be technical capabilities that makes J10B different to a future JF17 B3 as well and where China does draw a line between both fighters.



Und Sie sprechen auch deutsch ?


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## SBD-3

nabil_05 said:


> Our F-6 farmers were made by Shangyang,, so we have been doing business with them since 1965, CAC only stepped in during 80s  There is no rivalry between the two, CAC is known recently for their innovation and original design (excluding the F-7 series off course) whereas Shangyang is more known for copying, modifying Russian Sukhois, borrowing intel from existing and tested designs.


Agreed we have been using F-6s made by shenyang so we do have a history of doing business. However, there is a significant degree of competition between the two manufacturers for example
1- CAC competed with SAC on naval procurement leading to J-10s induction in PLANAF.
2- CAC and SAC competed on JXX as well where CAC came out as winner.
3- CAC's J-10 and SACs J-11X has also been competing against eachother for PLAAF service as well.
Some old news with reference to how many J-10s PAF was looking for 



> Defence spending exceeds Budgetary Allocation
> April 16, 2008
> 
> MUSHTAQ GHUMMAN
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Procurement of Swedish military technology, and JF-17 Thunder aircraft from China for Pakistan Air Force has increased Defence budget by 27 percent to Rs 350 billion from Rs 275 billion allocated in the 2007-08 budget.
> 
> Finance Minister Ishaq Dar, in his briefing to the Cabinet a few days ago had disclosed that the government had spent additional Rs 38.5 billion on procurement of defence equipment and aircraft under the Armed Forces Development Program (AFDP) for which not a single penny was allocated in the 2007-08 budget.
> 
> "Previous government did not allocate a single penny under AFDP in the budget but later on projected Rs 75 billion for this purpose, of which Rs 38.5 billion has already been paid to procure early warning system from Sweden and JF-17 Thunder from China," sources said.
> 
> An official of Finance Ministry confirmed that the government had projected Rs 75 billion over and above the allocated defence budget for procurement for military hardware, of which Rs 38.5 billion has already been paid.
> 
> "PAF has seriously lagged behind over the years, mainly due to various geo-political and economic constraints. In order to redress this capability deficit, PAF has very carefully evaluated the hi-tech options against well-defined air staff requirements," sources said.
> 
> It is not clear when it was decided to purchase these very expensive items: at the time of the budget, when this item was deliberately kept out to show a lower deficit or at a later time by the PAF for which approval must have been sought by the President.
> 
> Attempt was made to contact Secretary, Defence, Kamran Rasool, and PAF spokesman Sarfraz Ahmad, but no response was received. The government had allocated Rs 275 billion for defence in the federal budget, of which Rs 170.2 billion has already been spent during July-February against the projections of Rs 167.5 billion.
> 
> On April 12, 2006, federal cabinet had decided to purchase 98 hi-tech aircraft from the United States and China besides missiles and other equipment to improve the capabilities of Pakistan Air Force (PAF). When the proposal had been approved, PAF's combat fleet consisted of around 350 aircraft.
> 
> The bulk of its inventory comprises old Mirages and Chinese-origin A-5, FT-6 and F-7 aircraft. With the exception of F-7 PGs, most of these aircraft are more than 20 years old and are scheduled to retire between 2008 and 2015.
> 
> Foreseeing this retirement schedule and the known difficulties associated with replacing all old aircraft with western equipment, PAF embarked upon the co-development of JF-17 aircraft. The induction of JF-17 had been planned so as to have a systematic replacement of the retired fleet.
> 
> According to an official document, exclusively obtained by Business Recorder, mixed package of hi-tech aircraft and equipment, being purchased from USA and China, is as under: FC-20 aircraft (36), SD-10 BVR missiles (300), F-16 A/B, ex-Pakistan (26), F-16 C/D (18 with an option for 18 more), BVR, 500(American), targeting pods 18 and joint direct attack munitions (500). The expenditure on the entire package would be met from PAF share in Armed Forces Development Program (AFDP-2019), the document says.
> 
> The Cabinet, according to the document, has allowed PAF to set up Joint Working Group (JWG) with CATIC for procurement of 36 FC-20 aircraft. The government would also help PAF in securing long-term credit financing for the FC-20 aircraft from Chinese government, besides allowing PAF to initiate a Letter of Request (LoR) for the F-16 package and equipment through the Defence Ministry.
> 
> While the US F-16 C/D and Swedish Grippen qualified against the PAF requirements, the Chinese FC-20, in its present state, lagged behind due to the lack of advanced avionics systems and weapons. For the future, however, PAF termed it as a good option with very promising growth potential to become one of the frontline fighters to face the challenges of the 21st century, the sources maintained.


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## Anony

I think instead of waiting for J -10 Pakistan should invest some extra dollar and bring following changes to Jf-17.

*1. Avionics: * They should upgrade avionics of Jf-17 or better to say make a new one.

*2. Airframe: *They should try modify their airframe and try use composites instead of aluminium which results in very high RCS and also increase operating cost.

*3. Radar: *They should try and include AESA radar into it and they have 3-5 years to make it become a reality. As their only adversary India too will not have AESA platform before 2015.


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## Armstrong

Anony said:


> I think instead of waiting for J -10 Pakistan should invest some extra dollar and bring following changes to Jf-17.
> 
> *1. Avionics: * They should upgrade avionics of Jf-17 or better to say make a new one.
> 
> *2. Airframe: *They should try modify their airframe and try use composites instead of aluminium which results in very high RCS and also increase operating cost.
> 
> *3. Radar: *They should try and include AESA radar into it and they have 3-5 years to make it become a reality. As their only adversary India too will not have AESA platform before 2015.



On the avionics - Some of the more informed members on PDF think that they're already good enough & they'd go through life cycle upgrades subsequently ! 

On the composites - Yup reduced maintenance cost is an advantage but using more composites per unit may off-set the advantage a low-cost Multi Role platform the JF-17 accrues by raising the costs. From what I've heard the maintenance costs aren't that intensively high either ! 

As for the RCS reduction - It doesn't matter ! And I'll tell you why because RCS is effected by even small bumps on the airframe, from what I've read here on PDF & so using composites to reduce its RCS would be massively off-set by the JF-17 carrying its full armaments of WVR, BVR, A2G missiles along with the external fuel tanks ! It may, however, help with a better T/W ratio, increased range & more payload ability but that would again betray the purpose of the platform being a low-cost multi role aircraft that provides value for money unlike anything in the same price or class range. Plus we appear to be pretty happy with its current specifications to loose much sleep over that. 

On to the AESA radar - Thats complected stuff but I do hope that a Sino-Pak JV of a sorts is signed between the two of them to bring something to that effect available but then again the same 'Price' issue would pop up !

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## Anony

Armstrong said:


> On the avionics - Some of the more informed members on PDF think that they're already good enough & they'd go through life cycle upgrades subsequently !
> 
> On the composites - Yup reduced maintenance cost is an advantage but using more composites per unit may off-set the advantage a low-cost Multi Role platform the JF-17 accrues by raising the costs. From what I've heard the maintenance costs aren't that intensively high either !
> 
> As for the RCS reduction - It doesn't matter ! And I'll tell you why because RCS is effected by even small bumps on the airframe, from what I've read here on PDF & so using composites to reduce its RCS would be massively off-set by the JF-17 carrying its full armaments of WVR, BVR, A2G missiles along with the external fuel tanks ! It may, however, help with a better T/W ratio, increased range & more payload ability but that would again betray the purpose of the platform being a low-cost multi role aircraft that provides value for money unlike anything in the same price or class range. Plus we appear to be pretty happy with its current specifications to loose much sleep over that.
> 
> On to the AESA radar - Thats complected stuff but I do hope that a Sino-Pak JV of a sorts is signed between the two of them to bring something to that effect available but then again the same 'Price' issue would pop up !



Dude I don't want to talk about avionics, as I have not read what others members has posted but on composites you are highly mistaken. Aluminium body increases the RCS like anything. This is why whole world has gone for composites and as far as cost is concerned, even with these upgrades Jf-17 will cost far lesser than J-10.


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## SBD-3

Anony said:


> Dude I don't want to talk about avionics, as I have not read what others members has posted but on composites you are highly mistaken. Aluminium body increases the RCS like anything. This is why whole world has gone for composites and as far as cost is concerned, even with these upgrades Jf-17 will cost far lesser than J-10.


Composites have more to do with weight than RCS which is primarily dependent upon shape of the aircraft.

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## SQ8

Anony said:


> Dude I don't want to talk about avionics, as I have not read what others members has posted but on composites you are highly mistaken.* Aluminium body increases the RCS like anything.* This is why whole world has gone for composites and as far as cost is concerned, even with these upgrades Jf-17 will cost far lesser than J-10.



urm..a very vague description.
Composites are useless unless they are used within a structure that minimizes RCS.
Their transparency means that even if Radar waves pass through they will reflect off the inner structure of the aircraft.
If your statement was even close to true than the Mosquito being made of all wood would have an RCS comparable to the F-117.

Please read up on what are the actual properties of composites vis-a-vis RCS reduction.

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## Viper0011.

Anony said:


> I think instead of waiting for J -10 Pakistan should invest some extra dollar and bring following changes to Jf-17.
> 
> *1. Avionics: * They should upgrade avionics of Jf-17 or better to say make a new one.
> 
> *2. Airframe: *They should try modify their airframe and try use composites instead of aluminium which results in very high RCS and also increase operating cost.
> 
> *3. Radar: *They should try and include AESA radar into it and they have 3-5 years to make it become a reality. As their only adversary India too will not have AESA platform before 2015.



Absolutely not. The JFT has three specific purposes: 1: To replace aging jets with 4th gen capability. 2: Reduced cost to capability (1:3) when compared to capability measurement against F-16 B-30's and Mirage 2000's and Mig 29 (before SMT). 3: Work horse (2nd tier that can hold it's own) with bvr missiles, modern radar, in house development and NO STRINGS ATTACHED. 
So the above were and are being accomplished by the JFT very effectively. 
Now you can't take this jet and try to turn it into an F-15 or EFT. That would be terrible. In fact, now that Pakistan has the know how. It needs to move up a notch and get some 4.5 gen tech transferred from Pakistan. I personally think it is time for J-11B and J-31 for Pakistan but I know $$$$ are a huge issue. So FC-20 is definitely a better option for the high end of PAF's jets. On paper, this jet's future version B-batch II is equivalent to EFT and Rafale's class. So that's a lot.
Introduce this and build it in Pakistan without strings, you've turn the tables around from a capability's standpoint. Next step for the PAF would be to introduce J-11 or J-16 and J-31. These would change the equations from a balance's standpoint. By then, Pakistan may also be operating Stealth UAV's with tactical payload capability.

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## HAIDER

In late-February 2006, the President of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf, toured the J-10 and JF-17 production facilities during which the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was offered the J-10,and the purchase of 40 J-10s was approved on 12 April 2006. The J-10s would equip two PAF squadrons from 20142015 and be known as the FC-20.

********.com - Pakistan will get 40 Chinese J10?in 2014

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## sancho

orangzaib said:


> On paper, this jet's future version B-batch II is equivalent to EFT and Rafale's class. So that's a lot.



On what paper? There is no reliable source for any of J10Bs capabilities so far, let alone the versions that PAF might get. First it needs to be seen if it catches up to Gripen NG capabilities, rather than EF T3 or even Rafale F3+.
The changes that can be seen so far, makes them more comparable to the changes of latest Mig 29s, reduction of RCS, improved radar and avionics mainly, but important points to make it a really capable medium class fighter are lacking. No additional hardopoints, not additional fuel, limitation to 3 wet/heavy stations only. That's actually the same limitation the EF has, to be a good multi role fighter. But with China diverting their focus on NG fighters, a more comprehensive upgrade like Gripen C to Gripen NG might not be important anymore.


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## Viper0011.

sancho said:


> On what paper? There is no reliable source for any of J10Bs capabilities so far, let alone the versions that PAF might get.



Oh yes there is a 'paper'!!!! I can tell you that much . BUT, you'll have to wait for about 6-8 more months till this information becomes public (o may be much earlier). So just hang tight and wait. Time cures everything.

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## SLR722

orangzaib said:


> Absolutely not. The JFT has three specific purposes: 1: To replace aging jets with 4th gen capability. 2: Reduced cost to capability (1:3) when compared to capability measurement against F-16 B-30's and Mirage 2000's and Mig 29 (before SMT). 3: Work horse (2nd tier that can hold it's own) with bvr missiles, modern radar, in house development and NO STRINGS ATTACHED.
> So the above were and are being accomplished by the JFT very effectively.
> Now you can't take this jet and try to turn it into an F-15 or EFT. That would be terrible. In fact, now that Pakistan has the know how. It needs to move up a notch and get some 4.5 gen tech transferred from Pakistan. I personally think it is time for J-11B and J-31 for Pakistan but I know $$$$ are a huge issue. So FC-20 is definitely a better option for the high end of PAF's jets. On paper, this jet's future version B-batch II is equivalent to EFT and Rafale's class. So that's a lot.
> Introduce this and build it in Pakistan without strings, you've turn the tables around from a capability's standpoint. Next step for the PAF would be to introduce J-11 or J-16 and J-31. These would change the equations from a balance's standpoint. By then, Pakistan may also be operating Stealth UAV's with tactical payload capability.



this is exactly what i think..JF 17 in not meant to counter Sukhois and Rafale, instead it is being built to replace the aging fleet of PAF and serve till 2035-40. This time frame would be enough for PAF to look for other fighters like J10,J11,J31 to counter any adversary. By 2015 j10 or any other 4.5gen fighter would be in our skies and by 2020 PAF would be looking for stealth fighter. This is how modernization should be done. We can not simply go for j10s when there are mirages and other old aircraft still serving PAF.
JFT is a 4th gen fighter, which makes it self dependent and it can protect itself. 
people in serving PAF are not dumb. they know exactly what they are doing


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## sancho

orangzaib said:


> Oh yes there is a 'paper'!!!! I can tell you that much . BUT, you'll have to wait for about 6-8 more months till this information becomes public (o may be much earlier). So just hang tight and wait. Time cures everything.



As expected


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## TAC

sancho said:


> On what paper? There is no reliable source for any of J10Bs capabilities so far, let alone the versions that PAF might get. First it needs to be seen if it catches up to Gripen NG capabilities, rather than EF T3 or even Rafale F3+.
> The changes that can be seen so far, makes them more comparable to the changes of latest Mig 29s, reduction of RCS, improved radar and avionics mainly, but important points to make it a really capable medium class fighter are lacking. No additional hardopoints, not additional fuel, limitation to 3 wet/heavy stations only. That's actually the same limitation the EF has, to be a good multi role fighter. But with China diverting their focus on NG fighters, a more comprehensive upgrade like Gripen C to Gripen NG might not be important anymore.



Many an independant source / publications has stated that J-10B is expected to be as capable as the F-16E Block 60. Now as painfull as that maybe for some - that level of capability means that it can't be too far off when compared to a Rafale or Typhoon. As for hopes that China will stop improving the J-10 because they may want to divert resources to NG types -- these are just hopes, China has enough resources to do both and doesn't need to do one at the expense of another.


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## Viper0011.

sancho said:


> As expected



As expected.....what?? I didn't understand the hidden response....


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## sancho

TAC said:


> Many an independant source / publications has stated that J-10B is expected to be as capable as the F-16E Block 60. Now as painfull as that maybe for some - that level of capability means that it can't be too far off when compared to a Rafale or Typhoon. As for hopes that China will stop improving the J-10 because they may want to divert resources to NG types -- these are just hopes, China has enough resources to do both and doesn't need to do one at the expense of another.



Thefore you have to look at what they really know and what they mean! J10B "is expected" to have IRST and AESA radar and some RCS reduction features, which puts it technically of course in the same 4.5 generation as the B60, Gripen NG, EF T3 or Rafale F3. But that doesn't tell us anything about the performance of the fighter and it's techs compared to the others. The Eurocanards IRIS-T/MICA/METEOR missile combo for example, will be far superior that anything the J10 can offer. Rafale and the B60 offer passive detection and weapon guiding capabilities with their highly advanced EW systems. EF anf Gripen NG might offer swashplate AESAs, all of them can carry more weapons with maximum fuel...
So it's far to early to claim that it will be close, or even equal to them, especially since we simply have hardly any realible info on the B version so far.



orangzaib said:


> As expected.....what?? I didn't understand the hidden response....



As expected, caimes without any base.


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## Viper0011.

sancho said:


> As expected, caimes without any base.



It's funny how things look different from where you sit. You call that 'without any base', I may call that either private knowledge or closed door discussion!! Can't help you there. Like I said.....time cures all. It shall cure this issue too


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## applesauce

sancho said:


> Thefore you have to look at what they really know and what they mean! J10B "is expected" to have IRST and AESA radar and some RCS reduction features, which puts it technically of course in the same 4.5 generation as the B60, Gripen NG, EF T3 or Rafale F3. But that doesn't tell us anything about the performance of the fighter and it's techs compared to the others. The Eurocanards IRIS-T/MICA/METEOR missile combo for example, will be far superior that anything the J10 can offer. Rafale and the B60 offer passive detection and weapon guiding capabilities with their highly advanced EW systems. EF anf Gripen NG might offer swashplate AESAs, all of them can carry more weapons with maximum fuel...
> So it's far to early to claim that it will be close, or even equal to them, especially since we simply have hardly any realible info on the B version so far.



i like how you say we don't know about the real performance of the j-10b then in the same paragraph say it must be worst than "The Eurocanards IRIS-T/MICA/METEOR missile combo" yea because they've faced so many enemies flying comparable aircraft with comparable training.

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## 帅的一匹

They scared that china could build some decent fighter better than the best IAF afford to buy in the market. Buying wont match Indeginous in the long run, period!


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## SBD-3

sancho said:


> Thefore you have to look at what they really know and what they mean! J10B "is expected" to have IRST and AESA radar and some RCS reduction features, which puts it technically of course in the same 4.5 generation as the B60, Gripen NG, EF T3 or Rafale F3. But that doesn't tell us anything about the performance of the fighter and it's techs compared to the others. The Eurocanards IRIS-T/MICA/METEOR missile combo for example, will be far superior that anything the J10 can offer.*Rafale and the B60 offer passive detection and weapon guiding capabilities with their highly advanced EW systems.* EF anf Gripen NG might offer swashplate AESAs, all of them can carry more weapons with maximum fuel...
> So it's far to early to claim that it will be close, or even equal to them, especially since we simply have hardly any realible info on the B version so far.


?????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## Storm Force

If PAF gets the J10B FC20 in 2014 IT WILL BE A GREAT ADDITION. ITS A CHINEASE FIGHTER EURO CANARD (TYPHOON/RAFLE/GRIPEN NG)

Jf17 is fantastic project acheiveing eaxctly what it was meant for ie replace vintage old mirages at VERY LOW PRICES stil giving new BVR capability and giving PAC some experience in license building.

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## SBD-3

Storm Force said:


> If PAF gets the J10B FC20 in 2014 IT WILL BE A GREAT ADDITION. ITS A CHINEASE FIGHTER EURO CANARD (TYPHOON/RAFLE/GRIPEN NG)
> 
> Jf17 is fantastic project acheiveing eaxctly what it was meant for ie replace vintage old mirages at VERY LOW PRICES stil giving new BVR capability and giving PAC some experience in license building.


Its Just not BVR, its much more! JFT Gives PAF a localization of true MR capabilities. Those who used to discount JFT vis-a-vis J-10 have now started to recognize that JF-17, in fact, has turned out to be more versatile platform than J-10 in terms of capabilities.

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## Thunder_Rider

hasnain0099 said:


> Its Just not BVR, its much more! JFT Gives PAF a localization of true MR capabilities. Those who used to discount JFT vis-a-vis J-10 have now started to recognize that JF-17, in fact, has turned out to be more versatile platform than J-10 in terms of capabilities.



Really ?
Even Better than J-10A........


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## TAC

sancho said:


> Thefore you have to look at what they really know and what they mean! J10B "is expected" to have IRST and AESA radar and some RCS reduction features, which puts it technically of course in the same 4.5 generation as the B60, Gripen NG, EF T3 or Rafale F3. But that doesn't tell us anything about the performance of the fighter and it's techs compared to the others. The Eurocanards IRIS-T/MICA/METEOR missile combo for example, will be far superior that anything the J10 can offer. Rafale and the B60 offer passive detection and weapon guiding capabilities with their highly advanced EW systems. EF anf Gripen NG might offer swashplate AESAs, all of them can carry more weapons with maximum fuel...
> So it's far to early to claim that it will be close, or even equal to them, especially since we simply have hardly any realible info on the B version so far.


So your position is that the numerous and experienced aviation journalists with exceptional subject knowledge and the many reputable publications they work for are ALL WRONG to say that J-10B will be as capable as F-16E Block 60 and latest European offerings???!!!
They are basing their EXPERT opinion on what they DO know about the J-10B. Sorry but the whole ' chinese haven't disclosed full capabilities yet so too early to say' argument - just comes across as a desperate attempt at burying your head in the sand.
Time to face facts - China is churning out Fifth Gen designs which western experts are putting on par with F-35 etc and you still want to believe that they cannot match F-16E?

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## aimarraul



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## Babbar-Khalsa

WebMaster said:


> The Chengdu J-10 (Jian-10, or F-10 in its export name) is a single-engine, all-weather, high-performance multirole fighter aircraft capable of both air-to-air and air-to-ground roles. The aircraft was designed by Chengdu-based 611 Aircraft Design Institute and manufactured by Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAIC). The aircraft is available in single-sear fighter (A variant) and tandem two-seat fighter-trainer (B variant) versions. The aircraft first flew in 1998 and entered the PLA Air Force (PLAAF) service in 2003. About 50~70 examples are expected to have been delivered by 2006. These planes are powered by a Russian-made AL-31FN turbofan engine, while on later production variants this will be replaced by Chinese indigenous WS-10A TaiHang turbofan. The total number of production may be as many as 300.
> 
> The J-10 development programme, also known as Project 8610, officially began in 1986 to counter the fourth-generation fighters such as MiG-29 and Su-27 then being introduced by the Soviet Union. The aircraft was initially designed as an air-superiority fighter aircraft but changing requirements later shift the development towards a multirole fighter. It was widely speculated that the J-10s initial design was based on the cancelled Israeli Aerospace Industry (IAI) Lavi lightweight fighter. Despite the denial by both Chinese and Israelis, the high resemblance of the two aircraft appears to support this claim. Russia provided key assistance to the aircraft development after 1990 by helping Chengdu engineers integrate the Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan engine into the aircraft.
> 
> The J-10 is single-engine fighter with a rectangle belly air intake, low-mounted delta wings, and front canard wings. The airframe possesses a large vertical tail, as well as canards placed near the cockpit. The air intake is rectangular in shape, and is located beneath the fuselage. The aircraft is the first Chinese-made fighter to be fitted with a large two-piece bubble canopy to provide 360 degrees of visual coverage for the pilot. If necessary, the aircraft could be fitted with an in-flight refuelling probe.
> 
> The J-10 fighter represents the highest achievement of the Chinese aviation industry today. The aircraft achieves high manoeuvrability by using a large amount of composite materials in its fuselage and wing structures to reduce the its overall weight and thus increase the thrust-to-weight ratio. The aircraft design is aerodynamically unstable, to provide a high level of agility, low drag and enhanced lift. The pilot controls the aircraft through a computerised digital, quadruplex (four-channel) fly-by-wire (FBW) system, which provides artificial stabilisation and gust elevation to give good control characteristics throughout the flight envelope. The aircrafts cockpit avionics and fire-control system are also believed to be superior to those of other Chinese indigenous fighter aircraft.
> 
> In the late 1990s, the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence estimated that the J-10 could be as manoeuvrable as the U.S. F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. With its advanced fly-by-wire system, the J-10 may have a better aerodynamic performance compared to the Russian Su-27, which still uses the conventional control method. The Hong Kong-based newspaper Sing Tao Jih Pao reported on 29 May 2004 that during an aerial war game conducted by the PLAAF, the J-10 fighter has beaten the Su-27 fighter in all three rounds of dogfight in the mid-air.
> 
> The J-10A single-seat fighter entered service with the PLAAF in 2003, with 50~70 examples delivered so far. The production continues at a rate of 2~3 units per month. The two-seat variant J-10B joined the service In 2006. The aircraft may become available for export market by 2007~08.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great overview on the J-10/F-10 Aircraft:
> 
> http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news095.htm



While J-10 seems to be an efficient plane and may be it can match F-18 and mig-29 , but the dogfight depends on the skills of the pilot. The plane is as better as its pilot.


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## MastanKhan

TAC said:


> So your position is that the numerous and experienced aviation journalists with exceptional subject knowledge and the many reputable publications they work for are ALL WRONG to say that J-10B will be as capable as F-16E Block 60 and latest European offerings???!!!
> They are basing their EXPERT opinion on what they DO know about the J-10B. Sorry but the whole ' chinese haven't disclosed full capabilities yet so too early to say' argument - just comes across as a desperate attempt at burying your head in the sand.
> Time to face facts - China is churning out Fifth Gen designs which western experts are putting on par with F-35 etc and you still want to believe that they cannot match F-16E?




Hi,

It does not work like that. Remember---anyone can have a 'beautiful' girl---but not everyone can manage and keep a 'beautiful' girl.

Designing a stealth aircraft is a lesser technology as compared to the technology inside of the belly of the aircraft--ie the engine---and the electronics---.

Capabilities of fighter aircraft are not necessarily disclosed by the manufacturer----they are not a hidden secret---the only secret is from the ignorant---.

There are professionals out there who can look at the adversaries industrial base---look at the design---look at the space available and they can tell you right on the dime the capabilities of the aircraft---the electronics---the weapons systems etc---.

There is nothing that china has operational at par with the F 35 and possibly not for another 10 years----. Just because china has flown a couple of stealth designs doesnot mean they are in league of the big boys---. It is just the begining of a major major headache.

NEVER FORGET ABOUT THE MULTIPLIER EFFECT---when you advance technology so fast---the issues and problems have a habbit of increasing at an ever greater pace and numbers---.

China has yet to solve its engine problems----you want to talk about high end electronics warfare package---.

In their dreams the J10B would be able to come close to the Block 60----they can't even match the pak blk52----and they have no capable technology to match the pak blk 52's for the next 5 to 10 years.

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## Paan Singh

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It does not work like that. Remember---anyone can have a 'beautiful' girl---but not everyone can manage and keep a 'beautiful' girl.
> 
> Designing a stealth aircraft is a lesser technology as compared to the technology inside of the belly of the aircraft--ie the engine---and the electronics---.
> 
> Capabilities of fighter aircraft are not necessarily disclosed by the manufacturer----they are not a hidden secret---the only secret is from the ignorant---.
> 
> There are professionals out there who can look at the adversaries industrial base---look at the design---look at the space available and they can tell you right on the dime the capabilities of the aircraft---the electronics---the weapons systems etc---.
> 
> There is nothing that china has operational at par with the F 35 and possibly not for another 10 years----. Just because china has flown a couple of stealth designs doesnot mean they are in league of the big boys---. It is just the begining of a major major headache.
> 
> NEVER FORGET ABOUT THE MULTIPLIER EFFECT---when you advance technology so fast---the issues and problems have a habbit of increasing at an ever greater pace and numbers---.
> 
> China has yet to solve its engine problems----you want to talk about high end electronics warfare package---.
> 
> In their dreams the J10B would be able to come close to the Block 60----they can't even match the pak blk52----and they have no capable technology to match the pak blk 52's for the next 5 to 10 years.



i was just about to post it but dint otherwise pakistanis would have bitten me  .


----------



## Agnostic_Indian

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It does not work like that. Remember---anyone can have a 'beautiful' girl---but not everyone can manage and keep a 'beautiful' girl.
> 
> Designing a stealth aircraft is a lesser technology as compared to the technology inside of the belly of the aircraft--ie the engine---and the electronics---.
> 
> Capabilities of fighter aircraft are not necessarily disclosed by the manufacturer----they are not a hidden secret---the only secret is from the ignorant---.
> 
> There are professionals out there who can look at the adversaries industrial base---look at the design---look at the space available and they can tell you right on the dime the capabilities of the aircraft---the electronics---the weapons systems etc---.
> 
> There is nothing that china has operational at par with the F 35 and possibly not for another 10 years----. Just because china has flown a couple of stealth designs doesnot mean they are in league of the big boys---. It is just the begining of a major major headache.
> 
> NEVER FORGET ABOUT THE MULTIPLIER EFFECT---when you advance technology so fast---the issues and problems have a habbit of increasing at an ever greater pace and numbers---.
> 
> China has yet to solve its engine problems----you want to talk about high end electronics warfare package---.
> 
> In their dreams the J10B would be able to come close to the Block 60----they can't even match the pak blk52----and they have no capable technology to match the pak blk 52's for the next 5 to 10 years.



good post sir, I must say you poured water on many pak, China fanboys who was dreaming j10 t
to be par with f16blk 60 or eurofighter..but I think j10 will be superior to f16blk 52+.


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## MastanKhan

Agnostic_Indian said:


> good post sir, I must say you poured water on many pak, China fanboys who was dreaming j10 t
> to be par with f16blk 60 or eurofighter..but I think j10 will be superior to f16blk 52+.



Hi,

No it is not----china has shown nothing for it to come close to BLK 52 even---our BLK 52's are far suiperior to what china has so far. 

Children need to learn---learn from the experience of JF17---you kids said that the JF17 would be the god of skies---it is a mut so far---you kids said we would turn things around with this bird---4 years down the road it is still a long ways away from what was needed and over time it becomes truer that it will never ever reach that point.

Pakistani kids---you people need to learn----that the only person that you are lying to is 'yourself'.

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## ghazi52

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> No it is not----china has shown nothing for it to come close to BLK 52 even---our BLK 52's are far suiperior to what china has so far.
> 
> Children need to learn---learn from the experience of JF17---you kids said that the JF17 would be the god of skies---it is a mut so far---you kids said we would turn things around with this bird---4 years down the road it is still a long ways away from what was needed and over time it becomes truer that it will never ever reach that point.
> 
> Pakistani kids---you people need to learn----that the only person that you are lying to is 'yourself'.


Very true and a fact.


----------



## sancho

applesauce said:


> i like how you say we don't know about the real performance of the j-10b then in the same paragraph say it must be worst than "The Eurocanards IRIS-T/MICA/METEOR missile combo"



The difference is, that we don't know enough about the J10B technical changes and flight performances on the one side, while we DO know about the current Chinese missile combos (in PAFs case also Brazilian SR AAMs) and can compare them to the Eurocanards missile combos.



TAC said:


> So your position is that the numerous and experienced aviation journalists with exceptional subject knowledge and the many reputable publications they work for are ALL WRONG to say that J-10B will be as capable as F-16E Block 60 and latest European offerings???!!!



Why don't you simply post them here, then we can discuss about it. The fact however is, that at the current point there are not even reliable Chinese sourses, that would provide a hint of the technical capabilities of the radar (speculations are still about PESA or AESA), or avionics. You can go to this thread or in similar threads in the Chinese sections and you will understand it. Therefor all that is clear so far is, it will be of the same generation, but not if it will be as capable in performance!




TAC said:


> Time to face facts - China is churning out Fifth Gen *designs* which western experts are putting on par with F-35 etc and you still want to believe that they cannot match F-16E?



Time to face reality - they took over foreign designs, but neither J10, 11, 15, 20 or 31 designs are developed by China. Moreover, the design alone doesn't tell you how good the flight performance, or the technical performance is. 
J10A for example has a comparable delta canard design as the EF or Rafale, but the TWR for example is far inferior. Similarly, Chinese stealth fighters looks as Russian and US fighters, but without reliable infos on engine performance, emptyweight, radar or EW sonsors and performance, it remains a claim that they would close or on par. The fact that they still are dependent on Russian engine and radar technology infact hints to the opposite, that's why China still needs at least till the end of the decade till they might be able to fully catch up to Russia, while the US might push ahead again.


----------



## airomerix

Indulging itself in 5th generation fighter designing doesnt mean China has fully mastered the 4th generation jets. F-16 Block 52 is one of the worlds most advanced combat jet. Only few names come forward before it. I would be really surprised if China manages to make J-10B equal if not better then even F-16 Block 40s of the late 80s.


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## Xracer

Is there any news when j10b is Coming to PAKISTAN Folks??????????????


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## 帅的一匹

airomerix said:


> Indulging itself in 5th generation fighter designing doesnt mean China has fully mastered the 4th generation jets. F-16 Block 52 is one of the worlds most advanced combat jet. Only few names come forward before it. I would be really surprised if China manages to make J-10B equal if not better then even F-16 Block 40s of the late 80s.


You guys absolutely underestimate J10b,F16block40 definitely not a rivalry of J10b. PAF piloted will have a satin at this in the future. The feeling of superiority of American people is understandable but the reality is hard to swallow.


----------



## TAC

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It does not work like that. Remember---anyone can have a 'beautiful' girl---but not everyone can manage and keep a 'beautiful' girl.
> 
> Designing a stealth aircraft is a lesser technology as compared to the technology inside of the belly of the aircraft--ie the engine---and the electronics---.
> 
> Capabilities of fighter aircraft are not necessarily disclosed by the manufacturer----they are not a hidden secret---the only secret is from the ignorant---.
> 
> There are professionals out there who can look at the adversaries industrial base---look at the design---look at the space available and they can tell you right on the dime the capabilities of the aircraft---the electronics---the weapons systems etc---.
> 
> There is nothing that china has operational at par with the F 35 and possibly not for another 10 years----. Just because china has flown a couple of stealth designs doesnot mean they are in league of the big boys---. It is just the begining of a major major headache.
> 
> NEVER FORGET ABOUT THE MULTIPLIER EFFECT---when you advance technology so fast---the issues and problems have a habbit of increasing at an ever greater pace and numbers---.
> 
> China has yet to solve its engine problems----you want to talk about high end electronics warfare package---.
> 
> In their dreams the J10B would be able to come close to the Block 60----they can't even match the pak blk52----and they have no capable technology to match the pak blk 52's for the next 5 to 10 years.



If you actualy read my post you would see that J-10B capabilities are being put on par with the F-16E block 60 by large number of avaition experts writing for reputable publications -- NOT BY ME. My question was whether all these publications / experts were wrong????

Funny that in the same post you say - and I quote ' _There are professionals out there who can look at the adversaries industrial base---look at the design---look at the space available and they can tell you right on the dime the capabilities of the aircraft---the electronics---the weapons systems etc---.'
_ and yet you refuse to accept the views of the same experts. Perhaps you know better than them??

Also - please refrain from twisting what I say - I said that these same independant experts you rate so highly deem China's latest 5TH Gen types to be on par with the F-35 -- and did not say that China had an equivelant to the F-35 '_operational'_

Very glad that Chinese developments are giving you Americans '_the begining of a major major headache_' -- Guess what that headache is here to stay and only going to get worse.

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## Armstrong

TAC said:


> Very glad that Chinese developments are giving* you Americans* '_the begining of a major major headache_' -- Guess what that headache is here to stay and only going to get worse.



I agree with the rest of your post even though I think *Mastan's* are worth looking into as well but *Mastan Khan* might be an American citizen but he is one of our boys - a Pakistani !

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## 帅的一匹

If design a 5th gen fighter airframe is so simple as someone put it, why the hell DPRK and Iran not design one by themselves?


----------



## 帅的一匹

Disagreement is welcomed in this international forum, it only push us to do better. I think J10b won't be inferior to F16block 52. As to block 60, might be better than J10b, but J10 series will keep get updated.

USA technology is some human kind created, not alien ones. One should believe china will be par with them with sufficient money and man power in the next decade.

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## TAC

sancho said:


> Why don't you simply post them here, then we can discuss about it. The fact however is, that at the current point there are not even reliable Chinese sourses, that would provide a hint of the technical capabilities of the radar (speculations are still about PESA or AESA), or avionics. You can go to this thread or in similar threads in the Chinese sections and you will understand it. Therefor all that is clear so far is, it will be of the same generation, but not if it will be as capable in performance!



Instead of asking me to post sources for independant analysts putting J-10B on par with F-16E Block 60 - why don't you subscribe to a few aviation magazines and try to keep up?





sancho said:


> Time to face reality - they took over foreign designs, but neither J10, 11, 15, 20 or 31 designs are developed by China. Moreover, the design alone doesn't tell you how good the flight performance, or the technical performance is.
> J10A for example has a comparable delta canard design as the EF or Rafale, but the TWR for example is far inferior. Similarly, Chinese stealth fighters looks as Russian and US fighters, but without reliable infos on engine performance, emptyweight, radar or EW sonsors and performance, it remains a claim that they would close or on par. The fact that they still are dependent on Russian engine and radar technology infact hints to the opposite, that's why China still needs at least till the end of the decade till they might be able to fully catch up to Russia, while the US might push ahead again.



I agree - time to face reality -- It is independant experts who are putting China's latest 5th Gen types on par with likes of F-35 - NOT ME. You can either face that reality or bury you head in the sand on the basis that we don't know for sure because China hasn't released 'reliable info's'. My point was that if they can handle 5th gen tech - they can surely match F-16E tech - and this is backed up by various publications which have stated that J-10B is expected to be as capable as F-16E Block 60.



Armstrong said:


> I agree with the rest of your post even though I think *Mastan's* are worth looking into as well but *Mastan Khan* might be an American citizen but he is one of our boys - a Pakistani !



I know but he always refers to Pakistani's as 'you people' so sometimes difficult to remember he's a Pakistani - perhaps you should remind him too.

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## Armstrong

wanglaokan said:


> Disagreement is welcomed in this international forum, it only push us to do better. I think J10b won't be inferior to F16block 52. As to block 60, might be better than J10b, but J10 series will keep get updated.
> 
> USA technology is some human kind created, not alien ones. One should believe china will be par with them with sufficient money and man power in the next decade.



Is there a possibility of seeing a J-10C ? *Perhaps post 2020* 

And on that note how far do the inherent limitations of the J-10 design allow for to be upgraded too ? Which is to say till how far can it be upgraded with new blocks coming up before the initial design doesn't allow for a further upgrade & one needs to go back to the drawing board to make changes that may need to be catered to be designing a completely new aircraft ? 
@TAC : The same question from you, mate, if you will !

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## 帅的一匹

Good question bro, perhaps you have noticed the airframe change J10b have made compared with J10a. There must be a J10c program going on as J10 got vast updating potential.

Actually we deem J10b as a 5th gen tech test bed.

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## sancho

wanglaokan said:


> USA technology is some human kind created, not alien ones. One should believe china will be par with them with sufficient money and man power in the next decade.



Of course China will be on par someday, but money alone won't get you there, it needs time and a lot of own developments, but so far you are still trying to catch up with 4th and 4.5 gen techs and capabilities. For the NG you still need Russian help, be it in design or key technologies. J10B actually shows this pretty well too, with the addition of IRST or certain materials and coatings. The next step will be advanced radars, avionics, or engines and that are the fields that will be important for J20 for example.




TAC said:


> Instead of asking me to post sources for independant analysts putting J-10B on par with F-16E Block 60 - why don't you subscribe to a few aviation magazines and try to keep up?



Buddy, that's the reason why I am following this thread and similar threads in the Chinese section for years. To get real infos and real sources, not only speculations of western media, or guys that pretend to know things about J10B, be it positive of negative things.


----------



## Mian H Amin.

I just remembered: does the J-10 have a passively phased array radar, an active electronically phased array radar, or a plain old pusle-doppler radar?


----------



## 帅的一匹

Mian H Amin. said:


> I just remembered: does the J-10 have a passively phased array radar, an active electronically phased array radar, or a plain old pusle-doppler radar?



I am quite it is AESA. Not to forget J10b is a 5gen fighter test bed.


----------



## Anony

hasnain0099 said:


> Its Just not BVR, its much more! JFT Gives PAF a localization of true MR capabilities. Those who used to discount JFT vis-a-vis J-10 have now started to recognize that JF-17, in fact, has turned out to be more versatile platform than J-10 in terms of capabilities.



May I have the audacity to know that based of what facts have you drawn this conclusion.


----------



## MastanKhan

TAC said:


> Instead of asking me to post sources for independant analysts putting J-10B on par with F-16E Block 60 - why don't you subscribe to a few aviation magazines and try to keep up?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree - time to face reality -- It is independant experts who are putting China's latest 5th Gen types on par with likes of F-35 - NOT ME. You can either face that reality or bury you head in the sand on the basis that we don't know for sure because China hasn't released 'reliable info's'. My point was that if they can handle 5th gen tech - they can surely match F-16E tech - and this is backed up by various publications which have stated that J-10B is expected to be as capable as F-16E Block 60.
> 
> 
> 
> I know but he always refers to Pakistani's as 'you people' so sometimes difficult to remember he's a Pakistani - perhaps you should remind him too.




Hi,

I have been trying to teach you kids for 6 years now how to read the 'tea leaves'---but you kids are so thick headed---it is beyond belief---.

It is an old american habbit to creat a monster out of a mole hill----remember iraq gulf wars 1 and 2---. If you cannot---the do you remember seeing the interview of the chinese general talking about the issues with J10's electronics in comparison to the americans---that was just a couple of years ago----so what has happened in that time period that the chinese had made such a leap in technology that has changed the minds of the world---nothing-----none---zilch---nada---.

You got to understand by now----when western media starts talking about the chinese weapons systems---you need to understand that they are fulfilling the agenda of american defence industry.

There is a news out in today's jang news paper---85% pakistanis have never been to a library---and most who go there---go to read the news paper---man said that they have no libraries in their cities---.

These news media experts are trying to puff up the chinese dragon to make it believe in what it is not---.

You fools---china does not have a single fighter jet engine that could compete with the engine built and designed in the 1970 for F16 or the F 15 fighter aircrafts----.

It does not even have anything to compete with the SR71 engine built and designed in the early 60's----how far is the u s ahead of the world----no nation can come close and compete with some the the u s's 60 technology of this aircraft---.

I feel pain for you my young children---for your ignorance and lack of knowledge----in how you want to look knowledgeable and literate and the tragedy that befalls the motherland----no one to tell you the truth.

The pin pricks are meant to get your attention----and make you to learn with an open mnind to see what is on the other side---but tragicaly you kids revert back to what has been ingrained deep in your psyches---don't like something---ignore it---something gets you mad---stop listening to it----. Change that mindset and there will be a new begining.

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## Anony

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been trying to teach you kids for 6 years now how to read the 'tea leaves'---but you kids are so thick headed---it is beyond belief---.
> 
> It is an old american habbit to creat a monster out of a mole hill----remember iraq gulf wars 1 and 2---. If you cannot---the do you remember seeing the interview of the chinese general talking about the issues with J10's electronics in comparison to the americans---that was just a couple of years ago----so what has happened in that time period that the chinese had made such a leap in technology that has changed the minds of the world---nothing-----none---zilch---nada---.
> 
> You got to understand by now----when western media starts talking about the chinese weapons systems---you need to understand that they are fulfilling the agenda of american defence industry.
> 
> There is a news out in today's jang news paper---85% pakistanis have never been to a library---and most who go there---go to read the news paper---man said that they have no libraries in their cities---.
> 
> These news media experts are trying to puff up the chinese dragon to make it believe in what it is not---.
> 
> You fools---china does not have a single fighter jet engine that could compete with the engine built and designed in the 1970 for F16 or the F 15 fighter aircrafts----.
> 
> It does not even have anything to compete with the SR71 engine built and designed in the early 60's----how far is the u s ahead of the world----no nation can come close and compete with some the the u s's 60 technology of this aircraft---.
> 
> I feel pain for you my young children---for your ignorance and lack of knowledge----in how you want to look knowledgeable and literate and the tragedy that befalls the motherland----no one to tell you the truth.
> 
> The pin pricks are meant to get your attention----and make you to learn with an open mnind to see what is on the other side---but tragicaly you kids revert back to what has been ingrained deep in your psyches---don't like something---ignore it---something gets you mad---stop listening to it----. Change that mindset and there will be a new begining.



Nice post. Even this hold good for few from our soil as well.


----------



## 帅的一匹

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been trying to teach you kids for 6 years now how to read the 'tea leaves'---but you kids are so thick headed---it is beyond belief---.
> 
> It is an old american habbit to creat a monster out of a mole hill----remember iraq gulf wars 1 and 2---. If you cannot---the do you remember seeing the interview of the chinese general talking about the issues with J10's electronics in comparison to the americans---that was just a couple of years ago----so what has happened in that time period that the chinese had made such a leap in technology that has changed the minds of the world---nothing-----none---zilch---nada---
> 
> You got to understand by now----when western media starts talking about the chinese weapons systems---you need to understand that they are fulfilling the agenda of american defence industry.
> 
> There is a news out in today's jang news paper---85% pakistanis have never been to a library---and most who go there---go to read the news paper---man said that they have no libraries in their cities---.
> 
> These news media experts are trying to puff up the chinese dragon to make it believe in what it is not---.
> 
> You fools---china does not have a single fighter jet engine that could compete with the engine built and designed in the 1970 for F16 or the F 15 fighter aircrafts----.
> 
> It does not even have anything to compete with the SR71 engine built and designed in the early 60's----how far is the u s ahead of the world----no nation can come close and compete with some the the u s's 60 technology of this aircraft---.
> 
> I feel pain for you my young children---for your ignorance and lack of knowledge----in how you want to look knowledgeable and literate and the tragedy that befalls the motherland----no one to tell you the truth.
> 
> The pin pricks are meant to get your attention----and make you to learn with an open mnind to see what is on the other side---but tragicaly you kids revert back to what has been ingrained deep in your psyches---don't like something---ignore it---something gets you mad---stop listening to it----. Change that mindset and there will be a new begining.



You try to say USA is invincible. I wanna try it someday in the future. At Korean war back to1950, we tied with the united army led by the same USA you quite with nearly 40years tech gap. One has right to believe what he make himself to believe.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been trying to teach you kids for 6 years now how to read the 'tea leaves'---but you kids are so thick headed---it is beyond belief---.
> 
> It is an old american habbit to creat a monster out of a mole hill----remember iraq gulf wars 1 and 2---. If you cannot---the do you remember seeing the interview of the chinese general talking about the issues with J10's electronics in comparison to the americans---that was just a couple of years ago----so what has happened in that time period that the chinese had made such a leap in technology that has changed the minds of the world---nothing-----none---zilch---nada---.
> 
> You got to understand by now----when western media starts talking about the chinese weapons systems---you need to understand that they are fulfilling the agenda of american defence industry.
> 
> There is a news out in today's jang news paper---85% pakistanis have never been to a library---and most who go there---go to read the news paper---man said that they have no libraries in their cities---.
> 
> These news media experts are trying to puff up the chinese dragon to make it believe in what it is not---.
> 
> You fools---china does not have a single fighter jet engine that could compete with the engine built and designed in the 1970 for F16 or the F 15 fighter aircrafts----.
> 
> It does not even have anything to compete with the SR71 engine built and designed in the early 60's----how far is the u s ahead of the world----no nation can come close and compete with some the the u s's 60 technology of this aircraft---.
> 
> I feel pain for you my young children---for your ignorance and lack of knowledge----in how you want to look knowledgeable and literate and the tragedy that befalls the motherland----no one to tell you the truth.
> 
> The pin pricks are meant to get your attention----and make you to learn with an open mnind to see what is on the other side---but tragicaly you kids revert back to what has been ingrained deep in your psyches---don't like something---ignore it---something gets you mad---stop listening to it----. Change that mindset and there will be a new begining.



You try to say USA is invincible. I wanna try it someday in the future. At Korean war back to1950, we tied with the united army led by the same USA you quite with nearly 40years tech gap. One has right to believe what he make himself to believe.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been trying to teach you kids for 6 years now how to read the 'tea leaves'---but you kids are so thick headed---it is beyond belief---.
> 
> It is an old american habbit to creat a monster out of a mole hill----remember iraq gulf wars 1 and 2---. If you cannot---the do you remember seeing the interview of the chinese general talking about the issues with J10's electronics in comparison to the americans---that was just a couple of years ago----so what has happened in that time period that the chinese had made such a leap in technology that has changed the minds of the world---nothing-----none---zilch---nada---.
> 
> You got to understand by now----when western media starts talking about the chinese weapons systems---you need to understand that they are fulfilling the agenda of american defence industry.
> 
> There is a news out in today's jang news paper---85% pakistanis have never been to a library---and most who go there---go to read the news paper---man said that they have no libraries in their cities---.
> 
> These news media experts are trying to puff up the chinese dragon to make it believe in what it is not---.
> 
> You fools---china does not have a single fighter jet engine that could compete with the engine built and designed in the 1970 for F16 or the F 15 fighter aircrafts----.
> 
> It does not even have anything to compete with the SR71 engine built and designed in the early 60's----how far is the u s ahead of the world----no nation can come close and compete with some the the u s's 60 technology of this aircraft---.
> 
> I feel pain for you my young children---for your ignorance and lack of knowledge----in how you want to look knowledgeable and literate and the tragedy that befalls the motherland----no one to tell you the truth.
> 
> The pin pricks are meant to get your attention----and make you to learn with an open mnind to see what is on the other side---but tragicaly you kids revert back to what has been ingrained deep in your psyches---don't like something---ignore it---something gets you mad---stop listening to it----. Change that mindset and there will be a new begining.



You try to say USA is invincible. I wanna try it someday in the future. At Korean war back to1950, we tied with the united army led by the same USA you quite with nearly 40years tech gap. One has right to believe what he make himself to believe.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been trying to teach you kids for 6 years now how to read the 'tea leaves'---but you kids are so thick headed---it is beyond belief---.
> 
> It is an old american habbit to creat a monster out of a mole hill----remember iraq gulf wars 1 and 2---. If you cannot---the do you remember seeing the interview of the chinese general talking about the issues with J10's electronics in comparison to the americans---that was just a couple of years ago----so what has happened in that time period that the chinese had made such a leap in technology that has changed the minds of the world---nothing-----none---zilch---nada---.
> 
> You got to understand by now----when western media starts talking about the chinese weapons systems---you need to understand that they are fulfilling the agenda of american defence industry.
> 
> There is a news out in today's jang news paper---85% pakistanis have never been to a library---and most who go there---go to read the news paper---man said that they have no libraries in their cities---.
> 
> These news media experts are trying to puff up the chinese dragon to make it believe in what it is not---.
> 
> You fools---china does not have a single fighter jet engine that could compete with the engine built and designed in the 1970 for F16 or the F 15 fighter aircrafts----.
> 
> It does not even have anything to compete with the SR71 engine built and designed in the early 60's----how far is the u s ahead of the world----no nation can come close and compete with some the the u s's 60 technology of this aircraft---.
> 
> I feel pain for you my young children---for your ignorance and lack of knowledge----in how you want to look knowledgeable and literate and the tragedy that befalls the motherland----no one to tell you the truth.
> 
> The pin pricks are meant to get your attention----and make you to learn with an open mnind to see what is on the other side---but tragicaly you kids revert back to what has been ingrained deep in your psyches---don't like something---ignore it---something gets you mad---stop listening to it----. Change that mindset and there will be a new begining.



You try to say USA is invincible. I wanna try it someday in the future. At Korean war back to1950, we tied with the united army led by the same USA you quite with nearly 40years tech gap. One has right to believe what he make himself to believe.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been trying to teach you kids for 6 years now how to read the 'tea leaves'---but you kids are so thick headed---it is beyond belief---.
> 
> It is an old american habbit to creat a monster out of a mole hill----remember iraq gulf wars 1 and 2---. If you cannot---the do you remember seeing the interview of the chinese general talking about the issues with J10's electronics in comparison to the americans---that was just a couple of years ago----so what has happened in that time period that the chinese had made such a leap in technology that has changed the minds of the world---nothing-----none---zilch---nada---.
> 
> You got to understand by now----when western media starts talking about the chinese weapons systems---you need to understand that they are fulfilling the agenda of american defence industry.
> 
> There is a news out in today's jang news paper---85% pakistanis have never been to a library---and most who go there---go to read the news paper---man said that they have no libraries in their cities---.
> 
> These news media experts are trying to puff up the chinese dragon to make it believe in what it is not---.
> 
> You fools---china does not have a single fighter jet engine that could compete with the engine built and designed in the 1970 for F16 or the F 15 fighter aircrafts----.
> 
> It does not even have anything to compete with the SR71 engine built and designed in the early 60's----how far is the u s ahead of the world----no nation can come close and compete with some the the u s's 60 technology of this aircraft---.
> 
> I feel pain for you my young children---for your ignorance and lack of knowledge----in how you want to look knowledgeable and literate and the tragedy that befalls the motherland----no one to tell you the truth.
> 
> The pin pricks are meant to get your attention----and make you to learn with an open mnind to see what is on the other side---but tragicaly you kids revert back to what has been ingrained deep in your psyches---don't like something---ignore it---something gets you mad---stop listening to it----. Change that mindset and there will be a new begining.



You try to say USA is invincible. I wanna try it someday in the future. At Korean war back to1950, we tied with the united army led by the same USA with nearly 40years tech gap. One has right to believe what he make himself to believe. Suggest you not to call others son or child,that's no
More than a frog living in the bottom of a well tell others how vast is the sky. We Chinese is creating a miracle even get your defense minister shocked. Respect others ,respect yourself.


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## SBD-3

Anony said:


> May I have the audacity to know that based of what facts have you drawn this conclusion.


Do you need any rocket science for that?
1-JFT offers the same BVR capability as the J-10 Does
2-JFT offers the same ground attack as the J-10 Does 
3-JFT offers the same Precision Strike Capability as the J-10 Does
4-JFT offers Maritime strike capability which is not active on J-10 til date
5-JFT can employ the same recon and Jamming Pods that J-10 Does
Anything else that I missed?
I often wonder how people like to compare aircrafts based on apparent characteristics rather than capabilities. A fighter's capabilities play a major role in defining its function and abilities. Just because an aircraft is Mach 1.06 and other is Mach 1.08 or if one aircraft has lesser load capability than other aircraft matter much unless their intended role requires them to be.


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## GURU DUTT

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been trying to teach you kids for 6 years now how to read the 'tea leaves'---but you kids are so thick headed---it is beyond belief---.
> 
> It is an old american habbit to creat a monster out of a mole hill----remember iraq gulf wars 1 and 2---. If you cannot---the do you remember seeing the interview of the chinese general talking about the issues with J10's electronics in comparison to the americans---that was just a couple of years ago----so what has happened in that time period that the chinese had made such a leap in technology that has changed the minds of the world---nothing-----none---zilch---nada---.
> 
> You got to understand by now----when western media starts talking about the chinese weapons systems---you need to understand that they are fulfilling the agenda of american defence industry.
> 
> There is a news out in today's jang news paper---85% pakistanis have never been to a library---and most who go there---go to read the news paper---man said that they have no libraries in their cities---.
> 
> These news media experts are trying to puff up the chinese dragon to make it believe in what it is not---.
> 
> You fools---china does not have a single fighter jet engine that could compete with the engine built and designed in the 1970 for F16 or the F 15 fighter aircrafts----.
> 
> It does not even have anything to compete with the SR71 engine built and designed in the early 60's----how far is the u s ahead of the world----no nation can come close and compete with some the the u s's 60 technology of this aircraft---.
> 
> I feel pain for you my young children---for your ignorance and lack of knowledge----in how you want to look knowledgeable and literate and the tragedy that befalls the motherland----no one to tell you the truth.
> 
> The pin pricks are meant to get your attention----and make you to learn with an open mnind to see what is on the other side---*but tragicaly you kids revert back to what has been ingrained deep in your psyches---don't like something---ignore it---something gets you mad---stop listening to it----.* Change that mindset and there will be a new begining.



well your the best member on PDF by far no one even comes close to what you say sir but the thing is as you mentioned in the last pera well sir all i can say is YOU CAN TAKE A HORSE TO THE WATER BUT YOU CANT MAKE HIM DRINK

mY Opologies t Mods if he thinks my post is offensive ........BHAWNAOO KO SAMJO


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## Viper0011.

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It does not work like that. Remember---anyone can have a 'beautiful' girl---but not everyone can manage and keep a 'beautiful' girl.
> 
> Designing a stealth aircraft is a lesser technology as compared to the technology inside of the belly of the aircraft--ie the engine---and the electronics---.
> 
> Capabilities of fighter aircraft are not necessarily disclosed by the manufacturer----they are not a hidden secret---the only secret is from the ignorant---.
> 
> There are professionals out there who can look at the adversaries industrial base---look at the design---look at the space available and they can tell you right on the dime the capabilities of the aircraft---the electronics---the weapons systems etc---.
> 
> There is nothing that china has operational at par with the F 35 and possibly not for another 10 years----. Just because china has flown a couple of stealth designs doesnot mean they are in league of the big boys---. It is just the begining of a major major headache.
> 
> NEVER FORGET ABOUT THE MULTIPLIER EFFECT---when you advance technology so fast---the issues and problems have a habbit of increasing at an ever greater pace and numbers---.
> 
> China has yet to solve its engine problems----you want to talk about high end electronics warfare package---.
> 
> In their dreams the J10B would be able to come close to the Block 60----they can't even match the pak blk52----and they have no capable technology to match the pak blk 52's for the next 5 to 10 years.



While most of your arguments are valid from a discussion's standpoint, you are heavily discounting a few things:
1) Yes, sure the Chinese engine technology needs to mature for J-10, J-11, J-16, J-20 and J-31 types of platforms. But for the JFT, the RD-93 is actually a very capable engine.

2) The multirole capability designed in the JFT and for future Chinese jet was taken from an F-16 initially. Then, further designs were bought - stolen through the black market and then the Russian input into designing jets, license production - tot for the SU-27, etc and later the BVR tech given to China. Then the rumor has it that they stole F-35's data also.

What this means is that the Chinese HAVE developed the infrastructure and the technology base, based on the current standards. Now, it's a matter of few years till they start to produce 80 - 90% of the capability that the US jets provide.
The Chinese military industry is set to beat the Russians in weapons sale by 2025. That's a fact. I am sure that in a conflict, any pilot would want to fly a jet 80-90% capable of its Western counterparts than flying obsolete tech. An example is PAF's Mirages and F-7 vs. the JFT.

3) One of the most critical points is that, unlike the US and Russia.....the Chinese are ahead in some cases. They've learned from the best and their mistakes. The US no doubt is and will be technology wise always superior. One of the best things we do well.....is the military. Better than anyone else.
But, since WWII, we the US and then the Russians have worked on MANY designs that end up costing billions but were a waste from all aspects. Just take a look at the Russian or American lines of old jets. 
The Russians got behind because they opted for Mainframe technologies (which are back now as cloud computing), while the US setup an industry base with the Micro processor, thus its industry adopted for computer based applications in the smallest workplace, offering new generation capability due to the small infrastructure. But the Russians stayed with the mainframe and large complex infrastructure. The results of which can be seen if you do a cockpit analysis of earlier versions of F-16 c's vs. the Mig 29, SU-25 and 27. 
The Chinese are using the same technique as the Americans. They are using Micro-processor based infrastructure and tech. Due to which, offering multiple tech options for even a smaller defense company is possible due to the ease of Infrastructure setup for defense research.
So...the Chinese have decent airframes and the capability that they've started to offer. It is generations ahead of what they were offering in 1998!!! So they skipped about three decades compared to what the Russians accomplished between the 70's and the 2000's. So you can see where the Chinese are.
They are actually closer than you thought (hate to admit it but its true). Within next 5-10 years, you'll see the technology, weapons, avionics coming almost on par with the Europeans / the West. 10-15% different doesn't really count when you are dealing with the same capability on either side. Similarly, they are running three batches of Engine tech programs and they are in testing. It's just a matter of few years before they iron out their tech issues and mass-produce their main lines of engines!!!
But from a comparison's standpoint, the US will remain the sole super power for the foreseeable future (next 40 years). It's influence may get reduced a bit as there will be regional powers from Brazil to China to India to Russia. But the US will remain the top line defense manufacturer due to its innovation, staying ahead of the curve, investments in defense r&d and prior experience in weapons development.

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## Anony

hasnain0099 said:


> Do you need any rocket science for that?
> 1-JFT offers the same BVR capability as the J-10 Does
> 2-JFT offers the same ground attack as the J-10 Does
> 3-JFT offers the same Precision Strike Capability as the J-10 Does
> 4-JFT offers Maritime strike capability which is not active on J-10 til date
> 5-JFT can employ the same recon and Jamming Pods that J-10 Does
> Anything else that I missed?
> I often wonder how people like to compare aircrafts based on apparent characteristics rather than capabilities. A fighter's capabilities play a major role in defining its function and abilities. Just because an aircraft is Mach 1.06 and other is Mach 1.08 or if one aircraft has lesser load capability than other aircraft matter much unless their intended role requires them to be.



And your official claim for all the above.


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## Manticore

the weapons / pods might be the same but the radar, payload, fuel capacity, design etc are different

we say that we should not have all the eggs in one basket -- as countries then can politically/economically blackmail us --russuia [russian engines] and china are no different--- so should we go with jf17,j10 and j31 ---- or buy the j31 as no one else will sell us 5th gen fighters and buy a european 4.5+ fighter instead of j10b ? has paf seriously considered any other option other than j10b if there is no chance of further f16s? Getting funds to buy j10b is half the battle ... getting this fighter at par with blk60/ rafale is the other half...

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## 帅的一匹

ANTIBODY said:


> the weapons / pods might be the same but the radar, payload, fuel capacity, design etc are different
> 
> we say that we should not have all the eggs in one basket -- as countries then can politically/economically blackmail us --russuia [russian engines] and china are no different--- so should we go with jf17,j10 and j31 ---- or buy the j31 as no one else will sell us 5th gen fighters and buy a european 4.5+ fighter instead of j10b ? has paf seriously considered any other option other than j10b if there is no chance of further f16s?


What is that blackmail coming from? USA might sell you F35 if you willing to pay and with enough patience. come on, China weapon is not some cheap potato whoever come and go take at will. We offered Pakistan these because your are the strongest ally of China in the world.

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## Manticore

With corrupt politicians and under the table deals no one knows --- ask our gov departments how many civil projects were given without any open announcements to different chinese firms and how they faired at the end -- not due to incompetency but due to corruption 

I am pro- chinese -- it is the materialistic elements sitting at the decision making position that have let us down

I would appreciate if this matter is not discussed further -- please concentrate on the ''all eggs in 1 basket aspect'' 

With dismal state of affairs in pakistan, even china would let go of pak at some time or the other... if we keep getting great leaders like zardari in the future

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## 帅的一匹

Almost All Chinese are Pro Pakistani, including me. If PAF could go for Europe Typhoon fighter, it will be a good one.

Shame on those Chinese firms bribe Pakistan politician!


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## Nishan_101

But now there are symbols that PAF is moving towards about 70 F-60/J-31s rather than J-10BS which is quite good but my opinion would be to license produced at PAC or even join the program to manufacture 100 F-60s from 2017-2022...

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## 帅的一匹

Will PAF skip J10b for serious? I thought J10b is customized at PAF improvement request.


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## MilSpec

wanglaokan said:


> Will PAF skip J10b for serious? I thought J10b is customized at PAF improvement request.



PAF wont skip J10, Gen Kiyani was requesting the russians for AF31F Engines for the same....


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## SBD-3

Anony said:


> And your official claim for all the above.


???????????????????????? We dont have a DRDO here, unfortunately from information propoganda perspective, who would even announce that what kind of omelette they had in morning's breakfast.


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## DANGER-ZONE

sandy_3126 said:


> PAF wont skip J10, Gen Kiyani was requesting the russians for AF31F Engines for the same....



Its not the AL31F issue its financial problem, genius FAG. 
We got RD-93 superior to RD-33 of Indian Mig fleet and now we will get RD-93MA equivalent to RD-33Mk of IN Mig-Ks and you are saying that its because of India we are not getting J-10b or AL-31F ... Pure S *** .

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## TAC

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been trying to teach you kids for 6 years now how to read the 'tea leaves'---but you kids are so thick headed---it is beyond belief---.
> 
> It is an old american habbit to creat a monster out of a mole hill----remember iraq gulf wars 1 and 2---. If you cannot---the do you remember seeing the interview of the chinese general talking about the issues with J10's electronics in comparison to the americans---that was just a couple of years ago----so what has happened in that time period that the chinese had made such a leap in technology that has changed the minds of the world---nothing-----none---zilch---nada---.
> 
> You got to understand by now----when western media starts talking about the chinese weapons systems---you need to understand that they are fulfilling the agenda of american defence industry.
> 
> There is a news out in today's jang news paper---85% pakistanis have never been to a library---and most who go there---go to read the news paper---man said that they have no libraries in their cities---.
> 
> These news media experts are trying to puff up the chinese dragon to make it believe in what it is not---.
> 
> You fools---china does not have a single fighter jet engine that could compete with the engine built and designed in the 1970 for F16 or the F 15 fighter aircrafts----.
> 
> It does not even have anything to compete with the SR71 engine built and designed in the early 60's----how far is the u s ahead of the world----no nation can come close and compete with some the the u s's 60 technology of this aircraft---.
> 
> I feel pain for you my young children---for your ignorance and lack of knowledge----in how you want to look knowledgeable and literate and the tragedy that befalls the motherland----no one to tell you the truth.
> 
> The pin pricks are meant to get your attention----and make you to learn with an open mnind to see what is on the other side---but tragicaly you kids revert back to what has been ingrained deep in your psyches---don't like something---ignore it---something gets you mad---stop listening to it----. Change that mindset and there will be a new begining.



Just being patronising and calling everyone 'children' and 'kids' all the time doesn't some how make you a superior being. As usual your logic or lack of it is LOL funny. In the same post - and again I quote you say '_don't like something---ignore it---something gets you mad---stop listening to it----. Change that mindset and there will be a new begining_' and yet you are the one telling us to egnore and not listen to all the independant experts who are putting the latest Chinese fighters on par with U.S. products. Hows about practising what you preach? All of the off topic nonesense you come out with about _'ignorance and lack of knowledge----in how you want to look knowledgeable and literate' _ applies to you perfectly - your own posts are ample proof of this.

Your view that western aviation experts are on the U.S. payroll and bulling up the J10B as part of some big US agenda is not worth a response.

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## INDIAISM

TAC said:


> Just being patronising and calling everyone 'children' and 'kids' all the time doesn't some how make you a superior being. As usual your logic or lack of it is LOL funny. In the same post - and again I quote you say '_don't like something---ignore it---something gets you mad---stop listening to it----. Change that mindset and there will be a new begining_' and yet you are the one telling us to egnore and not listen to all the independant experts who are putting the latest Chinese fighters on par with U.S. products. Hows about practising what you preach? All of the off topic nonesense you come out with about _'ignorance and lack of knowledge----in how you want to look knowledgeable and literate' _ applies to you perfectly - your own posts are ample proof of this.
> 
> Your view that western aviation experts are on the U.S. payroll and bulling up the J10B as part of some big US agenda is not worth a response.


Dude what Mastan sir is saying and what you are not understanding here is that its a common practice used by most of the defence companies to create panic in Govt establishment so that they can get more funds for their products....and as faar as these so called independent experts are concern then believe me most of them get their pay check from these defence companies.....


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## TAC

Armstrong said:


> Is there a possibility of seeing a J-10C ? *Perhaps post 2020*
> 
> And on that note how far do the inherent limitations of the J-10 design allow for to be upgraded too ? Which is to say till how far can it be upgraded with new blocks coming up before the initial design doesn't allow for a further upgrade & one needs to go back to the drawing board to make changes that may need to be catered to be designing a completely new aircraft ?
> @TAC : The same question from you, mate, if you will !



Even with designs with limited potential such as the F-7 and A-5 China continued to introduce ingenius improvements until very recently. So with the J-10B which has bags of potential you can be sure to expect a lot more to come. Indigenous engine  possibly with thrust vector, conformal fuel tanks, increasingly advanced avionics / self protection suites and weapons can be expected. As a design it is second only to the 5th gen types currently under developmemt. To answer the question on when you would have to go back to drawing board  when you feel the need to have a fighter that is stealth as a design driver  and China is already doing this with its 5TH Gen developments.

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## Anony

hasnain0099 said:


> ???????????????????????? We dont have a DRDO here, unfortunately from information propoganda perspective, who would even announce that what kind of omelette they had in morning's breakfast.



Dude there lies the problem. When everything has been kept classified, how come you came know that much about JF-17 or J-10 either. It is only that some some trolling member in the forum has mentioned something and other just followed it blindly.

There were many who claimed many of the Su-30mki technology has find it's place in the LCA but I knew that it is untrue or atleast I didn't blindly accept their claim. Luckily for me other than RCS and latest IRST most of the other information has been officially declared in case of LCA.

So start thinking rationally as I have in my career of 2 years association with this type of defence forum.And in my 3 months experience with PDF I have found this type of trolling the most here in PDF.


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## naseem shah

The counter-MMRCA strategy of PAF
Visits 561

By Najam Khan
February 24, 2012
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has finalised the long-awaited deal of 126 Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) with Dassault, a leading aviation industry of France. Dassault will deliver 126 Rafale MMRCA to India in the next decades. The first batch of 18 aircraft will be delivered from France, while the remaining ones will be assembled in India. The $11bn (£7bn) contract is the biggest ever procurement made by the IAF. The Rafale Multirole fighter/bomber aircraft can participate in air, ground and sea operations in both short and medium ranges. In an additional multi-billion weapons package for these 126 aircraft, India will buy air-to-air and air-to-ground Precision Guided Munitions (PGM) and Joint Stand Off Weapons (JSOW). With a top speed of Mach 1.8, service ceiling of 50,000 feet and a range of 3,700km, it is no doubt a potent weapon for IAF and a threat to both China and Pakistan. 

India took around five years to decide the best bidder as a mainstay aircraft for its air force. During these years, the IAF conducted flight trial of Mig-35, F-16, F-18, JAS-39, Eurofighter and Rafale on different locations in India. The purpose was to look out for the lowest bidder and the most favourable combat aircraft, which will replace the aging Mig-21fleet. As India moved forward in search of MMRCA platform, Pakistan aimed to counter India&#8217;s plans by reassessing its military doctrines of airpower and assessed the shortcomings. 

India&#8217;s conventional arms build-up threatens Pakistan. The MMRCA deal is especially threatening for Pakistan because it augments India&#8217;s airpower and worsens the conventional arms asymmetry between the two arch-rivals. To counter India&#8217;s increasing airpower, the PAF has followed a multi-pronged strategy which involves: replacing its aging fleet of fighter aircraft; modernizing its existing fleet; procurement of force multipliers like Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) systems and Multirole Tanker Transport (MRTT) aircraft; induction of F-16C/D Block52 aircraft; and, rapid indigenous production of JF-17 Thunder. The procurement of FC-20/J-10B Multirole combat aircraft from China is a long term solution to IAF&#8217;s increasing airpower. Meanwhile, PAF is also enhancing skills of its pilots and aircrew by regularly participating in national and multinational exercises. 

A decade ago, when India initiated the MMRCA project, the PAF operated 250-300 combat aircraft including Chinese Origin A-5 for ground support, F-7P/PG for air superiority role, French-built Mirages for surface attack/naval support and night strike role and F-16 A/B tasked with multirole operations. The Cold War era airframes, A-5, F-7 and Mirage fleet were reaching the end of their service, albeit they were overhauled at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra. The immediate solution at that time was to invest in the JF-17 Thunder project. JF-17 is believed to be the replacement of A-5, F-7 and Mirage fleet of PAF. Thus far, the situation was such that India was looking out to the skies while Pakistan was facing problems even in maintaining operational readiness of its air force. 

JF-17 Thunder is one of the key solutions to PAF&#8217;s problems as it provides superb air-to-air and air-to-ground weapon carrying capability at an affordable cost. Pakistan has plans to induct 150 JF-17 Thunder till 2020. The first batch of 50 JF-17s named as Block-I will finish delivery by mid-2012. Block-II of 50 JF-17s with better avionics and aerial refuelling probe will be delivered by 2016. The third batch of 50 JF-17s with state-of-the-art avionics, electronic warfare and a wide array of weaponry will be delivered till 2020. The first two batches of JF-17 were meant to be well-timed and well-equipped replacement aircraft for A-5, F-7P and Mirage fleet. The third batch will include the Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW) capability, Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) capability, Infra-Red Search & Track (IRST) capability and more use of composites to reduce the radar echo. No doubt, the third batch of JF-17 will be a punch to the enemy! 

Pakistan also opted for acquisition of four Saab-2000 AEW&C systems from Sweden in 2007 and procurement of four IL-78 MRTT aircraft from Ukraine. Both of these projects were scheduled to finish in late 2011/early 2012. The need of an AEW&C was strongly felt by PAF ever since Kargil War in 1999. Such aircraft are a necessary requirement in any modern day airpower campaign. The presence of an AEW&C system increases the situational awareness of the fighter and bomber aircraft and yields better results in any campaign. The procurement of IL-78 MRTT aircraft was to allow Mirage and JF-17 to carry out deep strike missions inside the enemy territory and increase loiter time of these aircraft during Combat Air Patrol (CAP) missions. Furthermore, it enhances the strategic airlift capability of PAF. IL-78 strategic tanker and transport aircraft can also be used to carry large amount of fuel, ration and equipment to remote military bases. 

The PAF also modernized its air defence structure by acquisition of TPS-77 High Level Radar from U.S. It enhanced its Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities with purchase of Falco Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) from Italy. It improved its F-16 fleet with purchase of 14 F-16A/B Block-15 aircraft as Excess Defence Article (EDA) from U.S. The Command, Control, Computers, Communication and Intelligence (C4I) Systems were also enhanced by upgrading the air force bases inter-communication network. 

The PAF also placed an order for acquisition of 18 F-16 C/D Block52 aircraft from Lockheed Martin worth $1.5 billion and $650 Million worth air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons. The quantum leap achieved in this deal was the purchase of 500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) and 200 AIM-9M Sidewinder Short-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (SRAAM), which was necessary to maintain the air superiority. This was the first time that PAF has been given the opportunity to purchase AIM-120 Beyond Visual Range (BVR) weapons. In a separate $1.5 billion worth contract, the PAF placed an order for up-gradation of 45 F-16 A/B fleet to Mid Life Upgrade (MLU) standard. This contract meant extension of service life of these aircraft for another two decades. The first batch of these MLU F-16s will be handed over to PAF in early February 2012. 

During the past five year period PAF has participated in various multinational exercises to assess the training standards and skills of Pakistani pilots and crew. Table 1 shows the name, location and year of these exercises: 

Exercises	Location	Year 

Anatolian Eagle Turkey	2006, 2007, 2008, 

2009, 2009 

Advance Tactical Leadership Course	UAE	2006 and 2011 

Al-Saqoor	Saudi Arabia	2006 and 2011 

Brightstar	Egypt	2009 

Iron Eagle	UAE	2009 

Falcon Air Meet Jordan	2010 

Red Flag	United States	2010-4 

Green Flag	United States	2010-9 

Indus Viper	Pakistan	2008 

Falcon Talon	Pakistan	2005 and 2009 

Saffron Bandit	Pakistan	2009 

High Mark	Pakistan	2005 and 2010 

Shaheen-I	Pakistan	2011


Table 1: Exercises in which PAF participated since 2005.
In all these exercises, the PAF pilots have flown with the world&#8217;s highly advanced combat aircraft which include USAF&#8217;s F-15 & F-22, French Air Force&#8217;s Rafale, Italian Air Force&#8217;s Eurofighter-2000, UAEAF F-16 Block60 and Mirage-2000-9, RSAF F-15C, PLAAF Su-27SK and various blocks of F-16 from TUAF, RJAF and USAF. Apart from interaction with military aviation professionals, these exercises gave the PAF an opportunity to learn from the experience of other fighting forces.

Exercise High Mark is the biggest national exercise conducted every five years to assess the operational readiness of PAF. In High Mark 2010, the PAF not only demonstrated its network-centric capabilities, but also conducted Beyond Visual Range (BVR) and Within Visual Range (WVR) air combat missions, Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR), close support, air-to-air refuelling and strategic airlift missions.

In late 2010, Pakistan acquired Electronic Warfare Tactical Training Range (EWTTR) from Turkey. This range located 31 miles (50kms) from Mushaf Airbase, Sargodha was made operational in early 2011. It has been used to monitor various fighter squadrons competing against each other in a simulated electronic warfare combat. This range provides much electronic warfare combat, anti-radar and radar-avoiding techniques to the pilots. Another range named Air Combat Manoeuvring Instrumentation (ACMI) is also present at Sargodha, where pilots learn the lessons of modern day air combat and fly against aggressor units of Combat Commanders School (CCS). Both of these ranges complement each other by providing simulated air combat and electronic warfare training platform to pilots.

While the prices of fighter aircraft and necessary equipment from the West were going sky high, the only solution for PAF was to hold the Chinese helping hand. After analysing JS-39 Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter, the PAF decided to pick the Chinese card by going for J-10 Vanguard Multirole aircraft. The initial plan was to buy 36 J-10A and equip fighter squadrons as early as possible. As India delayed the results of MMRCA, the PAF had no choice but to allow its adversary to decide first. During these years, Chengdu developed much proficient version of J-10 named J-10B. J-10B (named FC-20 for PAF) will provide deep strike capability, greater range and air combat capabilities to PAF. The aircraft will be equipped with IRST, modern day BVRs, Precision Guided Munitions (PGM), Anti-Shipping Missile (ASM) and Anti-Radar Missiles (ARM). Induction of up to 50 FC-20 will complement the JF-17, F-7PG, F-16 MLU and F-16 Block52 fleet. The deployment of IL-78 Airborne Aerial Refuelling (AAR) platform will enhance range and strike radius of both JF-17 and FC-20 aircraft.

The counter MMRCA strategy of PAF also includes up-gradation of network centric capabilities by the procurement of ZDK-03 and Saab-2000 AEW&C systems. One out of four ZDK-03 is already delivered to PAF while the other will be received in mid-2012. Three out of four Saab-2000 AEW&C are in service with PAF, the fourth and the last one will be received this year. These two types of AWACS will provide strategic edge to both Western and Chinese origin aircraft in PAF&#8217;s inventory.

Rafale will be the mainstay of IAF in future. To deny the Indian air superiority in the region, PAF has to remain vigilant and continue with its diligent efforts for impregnable defence of the country.

Looking at the aforementioned procurement and squadrons re-equipment plans it is evident that PAF has invested great time and effort in implementing the counter-MMRCA strategy. This will make an efficient and hard hitting air force&#8230;an air force that will augment the defence of Pakistan and make PAF second to none among the world&#8217;s best fighting forces


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## Armstrong

TAC said:


> Even with designs with limited potential such as the F-7 and A-5 China continued to introduce ingenius improvements until very recently. So with the J-10B which has bags of potential you can be sure to expect a lot more to come. Indigenous engine  possibly with thrust vector, conformal fuel tanks, increasingly advanced avionics / self protection suites and weapons can be expected. As a design it is second only to the 5th gen types currently under developmemt. To answer the question on when you would have to go back to drawing board  when you feel the need to have a fighter that is stealth as a design driver  and China is already doing this with its 5TH Gen developments.



Dude I ask this because I read *Pshamim's* post in the JF-17 thread : 
_
You may call me crazy for dragging the Thunder in to PLA Navy carrier. Briefly,one of the simmering issue at present is how far J-10 can be improved and upgraded. J-10 is reaching a point where further upgrades may not be possible even though it is a great aircraft. JF-17 is not only inexpensive but has a lot of room to grow. A lot of talks and rumors are circulating, not necessarily that they are all true but they point to ideas that may or could be incorporated. I may state a few of them:

1. The single tall vertical tail may make way for twin tail to make it more stealthy. Also as Chinese have not designed and produced a twin tail yet, there seems to be a desire by the Chinese to introduce their own designed twin tail and introdece it for FC-1/JF-17
2. Twin tail will also reduce the weight
3.Change the circular rcs to diamond shaped cross section to improve stealthiness.
5. Keep the iconic DSI but make modify it due to changes in the nose
6. Increase the rounded edges on the wing. This will not only enable Thunder to perform better at low speed and at low altitude flying
This will also increase the wing tank capacity and increase range
7.Change the spine design and raise the cockpit for a better flight vision
8.Increase the take off weight._

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...ole-fighter-thread-4-a-452.html#ixzz2H1TShYIb

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## MilSpec

danger-zone said:


> Its not the AL31F issue its financial problem, genius FAG.
> We got RD-93 superior to RD-33 of Indian Mig fleet and now we will get RD-93MA equivalent to RD-33Mk of IN Mig-Ks and you are saying that its because of India we are not getting J-10b or AL-31F ... Pure S *** .



dummy, India got rd33 for mig29's in 80's.... i never said that India is blocking any sales, it's just that your general pasted a huge slap the face of your chinese brethren vis-a-vis WS10 engines for j10's. 


http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/206925-moscow-warms-up-islamabad.html


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## SQ8

sandy_3126 said:


> dummy, India got rd33 for mig29's in 80's.... i never said that India is blocking any sales, it's just that your general pasted a huge slap the face of your chinese brethren vis-a-vis WS10 engines for j10's.
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/206925-moscow-warms-up-islamabad.html



Because the general has been told that the life cycle reliability of Chinese engines has still not reached an acceptable level for the PAF. No slap was involved.


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## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> Because the general has been told that the* life cycle reliability of Chinese engines has still not reached an acceptable level for the PA*F. No slap was involved.



Most chinese posters here have claimed on multiple occasions that, WS10 is fully functional, accepted and better in performance (j10/j11/j15) compared to the AL31F. What the general has been conveyed seems to contradict the chinese members here.


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## SBD-3

Anony said:


> Dude there lies the problem. When everything has been kept classified, how come you came know that much about JF-17 or J-10 either. It is only that some some trolling member in the forum has mentioned something and other just followed it blindly.
> 
> There were many who claimed many of the Su-30mki technology has find it's place in the LCA but I knew that it is untrue or atleast I didn't blindly accept their claim. Luckily for me other than RCS and latest IRST most of the other information has been officially declared in case of LCA.
> 
> So start thinking rationally as I have in my career of 2 years association with this type of defence forum.And in my 3 months experience with PDF I have found this type of trolling the most here in PDF.



If you would be following JFT developments pretty closely, there have been ample material published recently on JFT's weapons suit, capabilities. And much of this has not come out as a word of mouth from trolling members. We have an information pool dedicated to JFT for very reasons.


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## TAC

Armstrong said:


> Dude I ask this because I read *Pshamim's* post in the JF-17 thread :
> _
> You may call me crazy for dragging the Thunder in to PLA Navy carrier. Briefly,one of the simmering issue at present is how far J-10 can be improved and upgraded. J-10 is reaching a point where further upgrades may not be possible even though it is a great aircraft. JF-17 is not only inexpensive but has a lot of room to grow. A lot of talks and rumors are circulating, not necessarily that they are all true but they point to ideas that may or could be incorporated. I may state a few of them:
> 
> 1. The single tall vertical tail may make way for twin tail to make it more stealthy. Also as Chinese have not designed and produced a twin tail yet, there seems to be a desire by the Chinese to introduce their own designed twin tail and introdece it for FC-1/JF-17
> 2. Twin tail will also reduce the weight
> 3.Change the circular rcs to diamond shaped cross section to improve stealthiness.
> 5. Keep the iconic DSI but make modify it due to changes in the nose
> 6. Increase the rounded edges on the wing. This will not only enable Thunder to perform better at low speed and at low altitude flying
> This will also increase the wing tank capacity and increase range
> 7.Change the spine design and raise the cockpit for a better flight vision
> 8.Increase the take off weight._
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...ole-fighter-thread-4-a-452.html#ixzz2H1TShYIb



I understand and agree that the JF-17 has alot of room for further development but remember that PAF wants the JF-17 to be as cutting edge as possible while keeping costs to a minimum so that they can bulk up PAF numbers with the type. My guess is those advancements will be preffered which have limited impact on cost. The role of the J-10 in PAF is totaly different - lower numbers but to be the sharp tip of the sword. In my opinion this is one of the reasons why advancements like AESA, which there is no sign of on the JF-17 at this stage are already flying on the J-10B. Former PAF ACM specificaly stated that PAF was keen on the J-10 due to its superior range and weopons load - but cutting edge capability enhancements - including AESA had to be in place before PAF would buy. I believe this was stated before the J-10B emerged.
Also when we discuss potential for upgrade and its importance - we need to keep in mind our requirements. If indeed J-10B comes to PAF with capable AESA, inflight refueling, advanced / updated counter measures, advanced avionics, IRST, what more upgrades will PAF need over the next 10 years other than ofcoarse continued avionics / weapons enhancements?

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## SQ8

sandy_3126 said:


> Most chinese posters here have claimed on multiple occasions that, WS10 is fully functional, accepted and better in performance (j10/j11/j15) compared to the AL31F. What the general has been conveyed seems to contradict the chinese members here.



The Mig-25's tumansky's RB-15 turbojets were able to push the aircraft up to a speed of some mach 3.2.. and were superior to the comparable Pratt and Whitney J-75 which was also tested at the same time.. and was generally better in performance.
However, while the J-75 could be run at max AB and still return to flight status after a service.. the Tumansky would literally end up melting and shredding itself to bits.

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## 帅的一匹

WS10A will be set for the second batch of J10b by PLAAF for sure. WS10A is performing really well on J11B since 2010.

The only problem is the production rate.

With additional 10billions USD invested by the central government, WS15 is incoming. Any one pay attention the the WS10x engine on J20?

PAF will receive the first batch of J10b block2 customized type in year 2014.

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## 帅的一匹

If it was J10A, the induction shall have happened long time ago. PAF has strict request on Radar, avionics, EWS performance.

Especially the engine. Image the J10x variant packed with WS15 engine with 16.5 ton thrust power.


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## MastanKhan

TAC said:


> Just being patronising and calling everyone 'children' and 'kids' all the time doesn't some how make you a superior being. As usual your logic or lack of it is LOL funny. In the same post - and again I quote you say '_don't like something---ignore it---something gets you mad---stop listening to it----. Change that mindset and there will be a new begining_' and yet you are the one telling us to egnore and not listen to all the independant experts who are putting the latest Chinese fighters on par with U.S. products. Hows about practising what you preach? All of the off topic nonesense you come out with about _'ignorance and lack of knowledge----in how you want to look knowledgeable and literate' _ applies to you perfectly - your own posts are ample proof of this.
> 
> Your view that western aviation experts are on the U.S. payroll and bulling up the J10B as part of some big US agenda is not worth a response.



Hi,

I understand your desperation---I understand the desperation felt by every pakistani---I know my desperation as well---. When it comes to power positioning---every pakistani lies about their capabilities and the capabilities of the chinese---and patronizing---patronizing my ar--. If you are so conscious of being patronized then dig your head out of the sand and listen to what is being told.

Only if the chinese could win their wars by the praise endowed upon them by their pakistani brethren---theyu would not have any puny little south asian countries standing upto them.

But tell me where the chinese industrial base is----which industrial base has produced what item to be of real concern to the west---. It is the age old fear mongering at its worst---. The afg war is coming to an end--defence industry is in a quandry---it needs another enemy---otherwise those making millions would be bankrupt---.

Go back and listen to the interview of the chinese general who talked about J10 and F 16----. That is reliable news and interview---it came straight out of the 'horses mouth'---he openly talked about the inferiority of chinese systems---. 

Pakistani BLK 52's are far superior to what china has in any of their air craft.

Stealth technology is no secret---you just need a picture to judge the angles and half your job is done---. But to make a fighter jet engine---you may have all the pieces and blue prints---you still cannot do it---.


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## 帅的一匹

I am not agreeing with you that Pakistan is living in desperation. At least Pakistani have china at its side. Some one just puff USA like invincible, not every one will buy it. From the nuclear weapon to DF 21d ,DF41, 095SLBM sub, J20, this list goes on. Tell me which one of this list western not concern! I wanna tell all Pakistani, live with hope and dignity. Although not everything TAC said make point, but he still live with strong patriotism and hope.

Never foresake the hope with your own motherland until everything get better.

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## 帅的一匹

I never deny America had state of art platform like F16Block60. The question is whether they will sell this one to PAkistan as USA is turn for India nowadays. No matter how you guys denigrate the J10b, it is the best PAf could afford and get access to. We love Pakistani, hope everything will be better off in the future.

Only Pakistan get access to J10b, even granted that we deny DPRk. Only The strongest ally get the best we have. This is not only the matter of weapon, it's chinese passion toward Pakistani.

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## 帅的一匹

One more suggestion, never believe the words from a Chinese general, he is just kiddin with you that American could sleep tight at night.

This is some Chinese way of puzzle USA.

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## Nishan_101

sandy_3126 said:


> PAF wont skip J10, Gen Kiyani was requesting the russians for AF31F Engines for the same....



may be it was for F-60....



danger-zone said:


> Its not the AL31F issue its financial problem, genius FAG.
> We got RD-93 superior to RD-33 of Indian Mig fleet and now we will get RD-93MA equivalent to RD-33Mk of IN Mig-Ks and you are saying that its because of India we are not getting J-10b or AL-31F ... Pure S *** .



Yeah that's true and even heard that Russian have made it to 100KN and may be chinese will copy to make WS-13 with Russian permission....
There also reports that they new Block-IIs will not arrive from China rather being made at PAC and about 100 of them like 80 Single seat and 30 dual seat along with some 35-50 dual seat for AJT role... aka training.

JF-17 Block-IIs are similar in avionics as J-10B... I am sure its manufacturing cost will be from $25-27 Million per piece...


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## 帅的一匹

Some china defense forum guess PAF skip J10b cause it worry the induction of J10b will dampen the export market of JF17.


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## fatman17

wanglaokan said:


> Some china defense forum guess PAF skip J10b cause it worry the induction of J10b will dampen the export market of JF17.



different category of aircraft.


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## TAC

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I understand your desperation---I understand the desperation felt by every pakistani---I know my desperation as well---. When it comes to power positioning---every pakistani lies about their capabilities and the capabilities of the chinese---and patronizing---patronizing my ar--. If you are so conscious of being patronized then dig your head out of the sand and listen to what is being told.
> 
> Only if the chinese could win their wars by the praise endowed upon them by their pakistani brethren---theyu would not have any puny little south asian countries standing upto them.
> 
> But tell me where the chinese industrial base is----which industrial base has produced what item to be of real concern to the west---. It is the age old fear mongering at its worst---. The afg war is coming to an end--defence industry is in a quandry---it needs another enemy---otherwise those making millions would be bankrupt---.
> 
> Go back and listen to the interview of the chinese general who talked about J10 and F 16----. That is reliable news and interview---it came straight out of the 'horses mouth'---he openly talked about the inferiority of chinese systems---.
> 
> Pakistani BLK 52's are far superior to what china has in any of their air craft.
> 
> Stealth technology is no secret---you just need a picture to judge the angles and half your job is done---. But to make a fighter jet engine---you may have all the pieces and blue prints---you still cannot do it---.



So is it possible that the Chinese General is misleading the US by downplaying Chinese Products in the same way that you say all independent aviation experts are only saying that latest Chinese products are on par with US fIghters as part of some global US misinformation campaign???? Or are you going to tell me that its just your mighty U.S, that can give out misinformation????
For you to say that nothing China has produced so far (including latest 5th gen types) is as good as Block 52 is a simply ridiculous statement. Nothing in the rest of your post is worthy of a reply.



wanglaokan said:


> WS10A will be set for the second batch of J10b by PLAAF for sure. WS10A is performing really well on J11B since 2010.
> 
> The only problem is the production rate.
> 
> With additional 10billions USD invested by the central government, WS15 is incoming. Any one pay attention the the WS10x engine on J20?
> 
> PAF will receive the first batch of J10b block2 customized type in year 2014.



Hope you are right about 2014 --- it will fall inline with the date given by former PAF ACM some years ago.

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## Viper0011.

MastanKhan said:


> Go back and listen to the interview of the chinese general who talked about J10 and F 16----. That is reliable news and interview---it came straight out of the 'horses mouth'---he openly talked about the inferiority of chinese systems---.
> 
> Pakistani BLK 52's are far superior to what china has in any of their air craft.
> 
> Stealth technology is no secret---you just need a picture to judge the angles and half your job is done---. But to make a fighter jet engine---you may have all the pieces and blue prints---you still cannot do it---.



1) For PAF's B52, Yes, that would be correct that it's far superior to the current Chinese weapons (JFT, J7, J8, J-10A, SU-27, etc). BUT, this isn't true in case of the modified Su-27, SU-30's, J11's, J-10B's, J-20's and J-31..... BUT, with the exception of the SU-27 and SU-30, the rest are in testing phase. So, I think his comparison was with apples to apples....that is current inventory of single engine aircraft. You have to remember....the B52 version is now old news in a way too. F-16 is now going beyond B-70 actually.

2) Stealth aircraft.....isn't a secret and you just have to see the angles and do it????? My man, do you have any clue how many hundreds of billions went into the Stealth programs R&D? If the 'angles' were ALL it took.....the F-22 would've existing in 80's as in 80's, the US had technologically advanced aircraft (F-14, F-15, F-16's) similar to today with some exceptions. Let's not make it sound like it's easy to do. If it was THAT easy....the Chinese wouldn't be testing two J-20's a few years after the inception of the first version. They'd be mass producing that to a few hundred as it would be just basic angles and geometry they'd have to worry about right? And the Russians and the Japanese wouldn't be taking years on R&D either. Just so you know, the F-22 has a mini supercomputer in it. To perform hundreds of millions of calculations on all levels, including its Geometry and incoming Radar beams!! 

3) I've said it before many times. If I was Pakistan, I'd bite the bullet and invest into J-11B once and for a long time. Twin engine, much bigger Radar and multi-target capability would help a lot. Supplement this with a few squadrons of Western jets, the JFT in numbers and a few squadrons of Stealthy J-31, backed by two tier long range SAMS, UCAv's.....you've got a great mix of jets and a very modern air force.

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## araz

orangzaib said:


> 1) For PAF's B52, Yes, that would be correct that it's far superior to the current Chinese weapons (JFT, J7, J8, J-10A, SU-27, etc). BUT, this isn't true in case of the modified Su-27, SU-30's, J11's, J-10B's, J-20's and J-31..... BUT, with the exception of the SU-27 and SU-30, the rest are in testing phase. So, I think his comparison was with apples to apples....that is current inventory of single engine aircraft. You have to rememeber....the B52 version is now old news in a way too. F-16 is now going beyond B-70 actually.
> 
> 2) Stealth aircraft.....isn't a secret and you just have to see the angles and do it????? My man, do you have any clue how many hundreds of billions went into the Stealth programs R&D? If the 'angles' were ALL it took.....the F-22 would've existing in 80's as in 80's, the US had technologically advanced aircraft (F-14, F-15, F-16's) similar to today with some exceptions. Let's not make it sound like it's easy to do. If it was THAT easy....the Chinese wouldn't be testing two J-20's a few years after the inception of the first version. They'd be mass producing that to a few hundred as it would be just basic angles and geometry they'd have to worry about right? And the Russians and the Japanese wouldn't be taking years on R&D either. Just so you know, the F-22 has a mini supercomputer in it. To perform hundreds of millions of calculations on all levels, including its Geometry and incoming Radar beams!!
> 
> 3) I've said it before many times. If I was Pakistan, I'd bite the bullet and invest into J-11B once and for a long time. Twin engine, much bigger Radar and multi-target capability would help a lot. Supplement this with a few squadrons of Western jets, the JFT in numbers and a few squadrons of Stealthy J-31, backed by two tier long range SAMS, UCAv's.....you've got a great mix of jets and a very modern air force.



Your views are not new and have been expressed by senior aviators on the forum before. The problem maybe that export of J 11 opens anothercan of worms regarding copy rights and given the ongoing restricted production of WS10s it might be prudent to wait. My own humble opinion was to acquire 2 more squadrons of F 16 bl. 40 and MLU them to achieve fleet compatibility give J10 a miss altogether and go forj31in 2018-20.If we get ou bl. 15OCUs we will have enough mrca to last till then.

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## MastanKhan

Orangzaib,

Thank you for your post----. The pakistani Blk 52 with its BVR package is more potent than any aircraft that the chinese have as of now in their inventory---. 

There is no denial of research performed on the stealth design and money spent on R&D----but once it came out on the public forum---it was not an impossible task for nations with a solid engineering base to come up with a copy----.

Orangzaib---in your emotional out burst you carried your self a bit too far---you are an intelligent poster---but guess what---the fruit does not fall too far from the tree---one can never run away from their shadow---.

I already stated that building the innards of the aircraft are the major issue---outer physical appearnces maybe similiar---but what matters the most are the innards to compliment the exo skeleton---. Chinese are nowhere close---.

Read again kid----read again.



TAC said:


> So is it possible that the Chinese General is misleading the US by downplaying Chinese Products in the same way that you say all independent aviation experts are only saying that latest Chinese products are on par with US fIghters as part of some global US misinformation campaign???? Or are you going to tell me that its just your mighty U.S, that can give out misinformation????
> For you to say that nothing China has produced so far (including latest 5th gen types) is as good as Block 52 is a simply ridiculous statement. Nothing in the rest of your post is worthy of a reply.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> No---that is not the case---the chinese generals are begining to learn to be honest with their capabilities and abilities---so to keep the politicians and general public in check---unlike their pakistani counter parts---who are living on a lie all the time---living on make beliefs.


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## Viper0011.

MastanKhan said:


> Orangzaib,
> 
> Thank you for your post----. The pakistani Blk 52 with its BVR package is more potent than any aircraft that the chinese have as of now in their inventory---.
> 
> There is no denial of research performed on the stealth design and money spent on R&D----but once it came out on the public forum---it was not an impossible task for nations with a solid engineering base to come up with a copy----.
> 
> Orangzaib---in your emotional out burst you carried your self a bit too far---you are an intelligent poster---but guess what---the fruit does not fall too far from the tree---one can never run away from their shadow---.



Ai8!!!! The F-16's B-52 weapons package is superior to the newer generation R-77 and about three different versions of long range BVR's that China possesses along with Su-30....that can detect the F-16 on a foggy day from about 145 KM's??? I leave that up to you. I have no doubt in the jamming and avionics QUALITY part of the deal that the US is far superior. But to say that the SU-30 with its long range radar, tvc engines and about three different long range to mid range BVR's....it's superior to the Pakistani F-16's B-52 is a far fetched. The AMRAAMS given to Pakistan are three generations before the current one. And their range is also somewhat limited when compared to the latest R-77 and other Russian BVR's. Just remember that. The USAF F-16's B-52's WILL ALWAYS be superior to what the Chinese have. Not the Pakistani ones. They are a dumb down version if you will.

Second, the Stealth issue. Russia has been manufacturing good jets, technology and avionics for over five decades now (starting from Mig 21). So.....a country with such a massive industry base and talent....is spending billions in researching on Stealth now.....they should already have one don't you think??? The Stealth jets have been around since 1980's,,,,and trust me, Russia would make a counter to anything American if they can. They've always had, whether or not it was needed. It's part of their national security policy. So, it is NOT that easy for even countries with GREAT industrial - engineering base. I don't see a stealth jet coming out of Europe....you are going to tell me that the French wouldn't want a stealth jet out in the market?? Or the Italians or Germans, etc? Any one....any takers please? I didn't think so!

Third part: Emotional outburst: I am sorry. Did I scare you off by yelling at ya? Did I call you names? Ask for your address so we could pall-wall together? No right? No offense but you live in the US I think, the phrases starting from "My Man" refer to a friendly, casual conversational style. Not emotional outburst or ticked off. And my posts aren't fruits that they have to fall from the tree....they are here online  JK.


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## Alfa-Fighter

wanglaokan said:


> Some china defense forum guess PAF skip J10b cause it worry the induction of J10b will dampen the export market of JF17.


J-17 have find any serious player yet in market.


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## airomerix

orangzaib said:


> Ai8!!!! The F-16's B-52 weapons package is superior to the newer generation R-77 and about three different versions of long range BVR's that China possesses along with Su-30....that can detect the F-16 on a foggy day from about 145 KM's??? I leave that up to you. I have no doubt in the jamming and avionics QUALITY part of the deal that the US is far superior. But to say that the SU-30 with its long range radar, tvc engines and about three different long range to mid range BVR's....it's superior to the Pakistani F-16's B-52 is a far fetched. The AMRAAMS given to Pakistan are three generations before the current one. And their range is also somewhat limited when compared to the latest R-77 and other Russian BVR's. Just remember that. The USAF F-16's B-52's WILL ALWAYS be superior to what the Chinese have. Not the Pakistani ones. They are a dumb down version if you will.



AIM-120C-5 is not the three generations old. If we compare it with the operational AMRAAM then only the C7 version is being operated by 'few' other airforces. The current weapon for the F-15C in USAF is the C5 version which is its main interceptor responsible for the protection of NORAD. The ANG wing also has the C5 as the standard missile on to the F-16Cs. Apart from couple of NATO airforces no one has C7 in their inventory. All the major NATO forces and other US allies are using the C5 as their primary AAM. 

The C8 version however is STILL under development. But on paper it is definitely very promising. 



> Second, the Stealth issue. Russia has been manufacturing good jets, technology and avionics for over five decades now (starting from Mig 21). So.....a country with such a massive industry base and talent....is spending billions in researching on Stealth now.....they should already have one don't you think??? The Stealth jets have been around since 1980's,,,,and trust me, Russia would make a counter to anything American if they can. They've always had, whether or not it was needed. It's part of their national security policy. So, it is NOT that easy for even countries with GREAT industrial - engineering base. I don't see a stealth jet coming out of Europe....you are going to tell me that the French wouldn't want a stealth jet out in the market?? Or the Italians or Germans, etc? Any one....any takers please? I didn't think so!
> .



Agreed. But the major difference between Russians and Americans lies in the operational reliability or in simpler words 'quality'. For example the F-16s require the first overhauling of their engines after 8000 hours mark. Where as the RD-33 of Mig 29 requires it just after 1000 hours. The metallurgy of Americans and Europeans is way ahead of the Russians. The Russians like Indians have always sought their priority to quantity over quality. I remember reading a report which told that a certain country has refused to take delivery of Mig-29s from Russia over quality concerns after they were inspected at the base. Now how ironic is that?

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## 帅的一匹

PAF has a saying about the quality of Fighter made in China.

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## Viper0011.

airomerix said:


> AIM-120C-5 is not the three generations old. If we compare it with the operational AMRAAM then only the C7 version is being operated by 'few' other airforces. The current weapon for the F-15C in USAF is the C5 version which is its main interceptor responsible for the protection of NORAD. The ANG wing also has the C5 as the standard missile on to the F-16Cs. Apart from couple of NATO airforces no one has C7 in their inventory. All the major NATO forces and other US allies are using the C5 as their primary AAM.
> 
> The C8 version however is STILL under development. But on paper it is definitely very promising.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. But the major difference between Russians and Americans lies in the operational reliability or in simpler words 'quality'. For example the F-16s require the first overhauling of their engines after 8000 hours mark. Where as the RD-33 of Mig 29 requires it just after 1000 hours. The metallurgy of Americans and Europeans is way ahead of the Russians. The Russians like Indians have always sought their priority to quantity over quality. I remember reading a report which told that a certain country has refused to take delivery of Mig-29s from Russia over quality concerns after they were inspected at the base. Now how ironic is that?



On the first one, NORAD is pretty much internal US deference around its surroundings. The reason you may see C5 is because no one around us has quality BVR weapons or even want a conflict with us (unless you take Canada which is far from being hostile).
On the second paragraph, we are both saying the same thing. American 'Process Engineering' (not metallurgy as it requires process engineering for the end product's quality) is second after the Japanese in general technologies like cars, bulbs, phones, etc. BUT it is THE NUMBER ONE in the military hardware. That's always been the forte of the American military industrial complex. We do military very well and better than anyone. Thus, the jets, the engines, the avionics are cutting edge, high performance, durable and reliable. And that was my point, having Industry base doesn't produce top notch stealth jets. You need a lot more to it, and the process management part ensures strict quality measures. (and yes, I am aware of the Oxygen issue that happened with the Raptor, I thought I'd mention that before someone can go ape-shet and discredit everything I've written by mentioning that).

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## airomerix

orangzaib said:


> On the first one, NORAD is pretty much internal US deference around its surroundings. The reason you may see C5 is because no one around us has quality BVR weapons or even want a conflict with us (unless you take Canada which is far from being hostile).
> On the second paragraph, we are both saying the same thing. American 'Process Engineering' (not metallurgy as it requires process engineering for the end product's quality) is second after the Japanese in general technologies like cars, bulbs, phones, etc. BUT it is THE NUMBER ONE in the military hardware. That's always been the forte of the American military industrial complex. We do military very well and better than anyone. Thus, the jets, the engines, the avionics are cutting edge, high performance, durable and reliable. And that was my point, having Industry base doesn't produce top notch stealth jets. You need a lot more to it, and the process management part ensures strict quality measures. (and yes, I am aware of the Oxygen issue that happened with the Raptor, I thought I'd mention that before someone can go ape-shet and discredit everything I've written by mentioning that).



Totally agreed.

That Oxygen scandle still cannot be quoted. No one can even match the capabilities of F-15E and the Super Honret apart from Germans i suppose (the Typhoon) so the problem which raptor is facing is similar to "Grapes are sour".


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## Agnostic_Indian

airomerix said:


> RD-33 of Mig 29 requires it just after 1000 hours. The metallurgy of Americans and Europeans is way ahead of the Russians.


new Rd33mk serious has a service life of 4000 hrs.


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## airomerix

Agnostic_Indian said:


> new Rd33mk serious has a service life of 4000 hrs.



No idea about it. But if that is true then Russians are moviing in right direction. The engines of the Mig 19s were to be overhauled just after 600 hours. Thus this achievement is remarkable.


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## TAC

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> No---that is not the case---the chinese generals are begining to learn to be honest with their capabilities and abilities---so to keep the politicians and general public in check---unlike their pakistani counter parts---who are living on a lie all the time---living on make beliefs.



So you believe that anyone saying anything positive about the J-10B is lieing because they are on CIA's payroll but anyone saying anything negative is speaking the gospell truth?? Sounds to me like you are one living a lie and living on make beliefs.

With regard to your off topic derogatory comments about Pakistanis in general - I can also make general half baked derogitory comments about Americans - but thats not realy what this thread is for.


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## MastanKhan

orangzaib said:


> Third part: Emotional outburst: I am sorry. Did I scare you off by yelling at ya? Did I call you names? Ask for your address so we could pall-wall together? No right? No offense but you live in the US I think, the phrases starting from "My Man" refer to a friendly, casual conversational style. Not emotional outburst or ticked off. And my posts aren't fruits that they have to fall from the tree....they are here online  JK.



Senor,

If you read my post again---I only talked about the EXO SKELETON---once you see the outside---the body structure---it can be designed---not a monumental task---I never talked about the innards except that they are the most important and diffficult part of the problem---that is where china lacks the technology.

You decided to take it on your own any which way---.

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## Luftwaffe

orangzaib said:


> I've said it before many times. If I was Pakistan, I'd bite the bullet and invest into J-11B once and for a long time. Twin engine, much bigger Radar and multi-target capability would help a lot. Supplement this with a few squadrons of Western jets, the JFT in numbers and a few squadrons of Stealthy J-31, backed by two tier long range SAMS, UCAv's.....you've got a great mix of jets and a very modern air force.



Hi, J-11B would have been an excellent platform, but you know what chinese have deals with russians even with WS-10 or any other chinese engine it isn't available to Pakistan so there you have the Answer the platform is not availble for sales due to russians. 

PAF simply has no money beyond procuring 150 JFTs what to talk of squadrons of aircraft supplemented by abc and xyz western and eastern platforms. Reality is PAF has no money. Money was available since 2008 but PAF remained "ach bacha" and kept quiet and kept looking at government spending lavishly appointing OGRA and other ministries eating away billions of rupees and an astounding 7 billion rupees daily corruption. I Think regardless if people disagree I would blame PAF for not making noise in the face of over-whelming Threat on the eastern and western border an losing of older fleet. I have not an iota of doubt under pressure government would have provided PAF with enough money to go for platform of choice in number, you just need to make a noise that is what indians, americans and chinese have been doing.

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## Armstrong

MastanKhan said:


> Senor,
> 
> If you read my post again---I only talked about the EXO SKELETON---once you see the outside---the body structure---it can be designed---not a monumental task---I never talked about the innards except that they are the most important and diffficult part of the problem---that is where china lacks the technology.
> 
> You decided to take it on your own any which way---.



*Senor Khan* ! *Christ that sounds strange* 

Don't you think you're underestimating the amount of expertise that are required to even draw up structural designs of a 5th Generation airframe on paper never mind actually building one that can fly, apparently, seamlessly ? 

Granted China may not be able to develop the 'innards' as you call them, with anything close to the proficiency or the performance that their American counterparts can but surely giving an F-16 Block 52 (or even its latter generations) a mark above whatever the J-20 & the J-31 carries would be a disservice to the tag '5th Generation Aircraft' ?

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## fatman17

internet reports....
it is being stated that PK may not be interested in the J-10B anymore, as the JFT Block-2 and planned Block-3 will provide 'similar' performance and weapons like the J-10B. for the sake of simplicity, PAF would prefer to invest in the JFT. further in the new year, PAF is going to request additional F-16's from the USA either via EDA or new order for atleast 28 aircraft.

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## MastanKhan

Armstrong said:


> *Senor Khan* ! *Christ that sounds strange*
> 
> Don't you think you're underestimating the amount of expertise that are required to even draw up structural designs of a 5th Generation airframe on paper never mind actually building one that can fly, apparently, seamlessly ?
> 
> Granted China may not be able to develop the 'innards' as you call them, with anything close to the proficiency or the performance that their American counterparts can but surely giving an F-16 Block 52 (or even its latter generations) a mark above whatever the J-20 & the J-31 carries would be a disservice to the tag '5th Generation Aircraft' ?



Hi,

First of all---we are just looking at the pictures / videos of the air craft---. Would it be appropriate to say that a 10---15 years time period to have operational aircraft available.

China has that much expertise and infra structure to manufacture and design the exo skeleton---but to make it do things like the F22---that will require ages.

Looking at the cost and up keep and maintenance of the F 22---it seems like that a similiar plane in any other air force might break the bank of that nation.

I do not think that china has the capability to duplicate F 22---the only way it can survive is to have a better detection system for a stealth type of aircraft and have better missile defence and better air to air missile and best of all---don't go to war with the u s---simple as that---.

Stealth technology sounds intriguing---but it is not viable for an average nation

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## Shadow_Hunter

fatman17 said:


> internet reports....
> it is being stated that PK may not be interested in the J-10B anymore, as the JFT Block-2 and planned Block-3 will provide 'similar' performance and weapons like the J-10B. for the sake of simplicity, PAF would prefer to invest in the JFT. further in the new year, PAF is going to request additional F-16's from the USA either via EDA or new order for atleast 28 aircraft.



One question from a neutral viewpoint(Please don't look at my flag)

From POV of china, Pakistan was supposed to be the first customer of J10B. If PAF chooses not to go for it, it would hamper chinese plans for J10B export. Replacing J10B with JF17s won't be enough compensation for them as JF17 is not used by PLAF, and hence export of JF17 is less important for brand building of chinese aircraft as compared to J10B.

Given that don't you think China will actively try to stop pakistan from cancelling J10B orders, which can result in using stick and carrot tactics forcing pakistan to accept J10B?


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## Armstrong

Shadow_Hunter said:


> One question from a neutral viewpoint(Please don't look at my flag)
> 
> From POV of china, Pakistan was supposed to be the first customer of J10B. If PAF chooses not to go for it, it would hamper chinese plans for J10B export. Replacing J10B with JF17s won't be enough compensation for them as JF17 is not used by PLAF, and hence export of JF17 is less important for brand building of chinese aircraft as compared to J10B.
> 
> Given that don't you think China will actively try to stop pakistan from cancelling J10B orders, which can result in using stick and carrot tactics forcing pakistan to accept J10B?



If I may ! 

Please quote a single example from our decades long relationship with China where anything close to the proverbial 'sticks & carrots' tactics were used by the Chinese when dealing with Pakistan ?

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## Shadow_Hunter

Armstrong said:


> If I may !
> 
> Please quote a single example from our decades long relationship with China where anything close to the proverbial 'sticks & carrots' tactics were used by the Chinese when dealing with Pakistan ?



I am not arguing. I am asking a question.

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## Armstrong

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I am not arguing. I am asking a question.



Yaraa so was I ! 

China doesn't do that with Pakistan !


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## Shadow_Hunter

Armstrong said:


> Yaraa so was I !
> 
> China doesn't do that with Pakistan !



Maybe they never had to do it. From the POV of china, it will depend on how important J10B is to them.

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## TaimiKhan

Shadow_Hunter said:


> One question from a neutral viewpoint(Please don't look at my flag)
> 
> From POV of china, Pakistan was supposed to be the first customer of J10B. If PAF chooses not to go for it, it would hamper chinese plans for J10B export. Replacing J10B with JF17s won't be enough compensation for them as JF17 is not used by PLAF, and hence export of JF17 is less important for brand building of chinese aircraft as compared to J10B.
> 
> Given that don't you think China will actively try to stop pakistan from cancelling J10B orders, which can result in using stick and carrot tactics forcing pakistan to accept J10B?



I believe it was Pakistan which had shown interest in J-10 and no the other way around, so don't think they will be forcing us to buy it. Had that been the case they would have not gone with us with the JF-17 and rather from the start pushed us to buy the J-10. As per insider details the Chinese are offering the J-10B to Pakistan at something close to 40M$, which is not we are ready to buy at. Had they wanted us to buy, they would have offered it at a lower cost so that J-10B has chances of success as an export product. 

As far as my analysis goes and by looking at the joint Chinese-Pak marketing collaboration with respect to FC-1 / JF-17, they know that for the Chinese to make J-10B an export success would be very difficult as of now as its an expensive aircraft and as of now and in foreseeable future there is no one who would like to have J-10B especially when there is American, French, Swiss, European fighter aircraft programs. When J-10B becomes a true class fighter with its own engine, it will have to fight its competitors and the buyers would be rich ones and not the low or middle income level buyers those who don't have funds to buy a 40-50M$ fighter jet. 

That is where JF-17 will come with a 20-25M$ price tag for buyers who wish to replace their old Mig-21s, F-5s, Mirage kind of fighter jets, with something which is 4th gen atleast. And that is where Chinese will win with hundreds of sale orders and keeping those countries on its side. 

FC-1/JF-17 targets those countries who can not go for a 40-50M$ jet, but can buy a 15-25M$ price tag jet. 

J-10B with PAF buying or not, will be opted by those countries who can buy pricey jets. But for that to have its own mature jet engine is very necessary. 

Also, there is no clear indication that CAF (PLAAF) has not decided to induct FC-1. FC-1 prototype getting tested with Chinese weapon systems on the same airfield where J-20 & J-10B are being tested gives some other indication.

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## fatman17

Shadow_Hunter said:


> One question from a neutral viewpoint(Please don't look at my flag)
> 
> From POV of china, Pakistan was supposed to be the first customer of J10B. If PAF chooses not to go for it, it would hamper chinese plans for J10B export. Replacing J10B with JF17s won't be enough compensation for them as JF17 is not used by PLAF, and hence export of JF17 is less important for brand building of chinese aircraft as compared to J10B.
> 
> Given that don't you think China will actively try to stop pakistan from cancelling J10B orders, which can result in using stick and carrot tactics forcing pakistan to accept J10B?



the oher argument is that if PAF opts for J-10B, it will hinder exports of JFT.


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## jackyy

i think pakistanis will surely gets their pilots trained on j-10's coz i heard that there is treaty of supplying planes b/w china and pakistan so if they cant purchase it but atleast gets their pilots trained on it so that in case of conflict they can get additional force multiplier


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> internet reports....
> it is being stated that PK may not be interested in the J-10B anymore, as the JFT Block-2 and planned Block-3 will provide 'similar' performance and weapons like the J-10B. for the sake of simplicity, PAF would prefer to invest in the JFT. further in the new year, PAF is going to request additional F-16's from the USA either via EDA or new order for atleast 28 aircraft.




As I was SAYING!!!!!!!!!!. I still think there is a possibility of getting FC20 depending on the capabilities on offer and the US response to our request. Question for the Wise one!!!Is there a request for AMRAMC7/D +AIM9X on the cards as well? 
PAF has always had plans and infrastructure to support upto 100/110 F16s. The extra Bl 52s may be a sign of "You aint getting naught till you order some new babies" and support from the Aid may have been assured which makes the platter too delicious to ignore.
Araz



fatman17 said:


> the oher argument is that if PAF opts for J-10B, it will hinder exports of JFT.



Sir 
There might be more under the table than one cares to show. However this claim would need to be verified and to my humble intellect sounds far fetched. The word engine keeps striking melancholic chords for some reason.
Araz

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## Major Sam

araz said:


> As I was SAYING!!!!!!!!!!. I still think there is a possibility of getting J20 depending on the capabilities on offer and the US response to our request. Question for the Wise one!!!Is there a request for AMRAMC7/D +AIM9X on the cards as well?
> PAF has always had plans and infrastructure to support upto 100/110 F16s. The extra Bl 52s may be a sign of "You aint getting naught till you order some new babies" and support from the Aid may have been assured which makes the platter too delicious to ignore.
> Araz



Well in My POV, its right time for PAF if they are serious for F-16 to get from USA. as they can use USA forces withdraw from Afg as a Trump card to get more assistance and equipment of their choice. as you can see recently USA sent CSF money to pakistan. Now also our relations becomes better for example the way they gave immunity to ISI in US court. They need us as we need them too. so its bargain time now.

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## Luftwaffe

Don't you people Think at one point you want JF-17 to upgrade bring in new Block and increase the numbers in the inventory on the other hand you people favor F-16s to be procured this is the exact confusion inside PAF and that is how money is wasted decide what you want take one and leave other and stop fooling around. If PAF want to make something out of JF-17 then sacrifice getting more F-16s and invest heavily in JF-17s. 

Now that we are hearing JF-17s coming in more blocks would be equally good as J-10B that is what I questioned a year back and people were bashing me when I said what significant advantage would be between J-10B and FC-1 block III. People can't even keep up with FC-1/JF-17s and we want another headache J-10B. I also questioned if JF-17 Blk III as people call it would have some major changes then why didn't PAF initially invest more it was no big deal when investing $500M PAF could have invest a couple hundred more from the start JF-17 should have been J-10/F-16 equivalent there would have been no look forward to J10s. Will PAF ever learn right management.

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## Mani2020

may be because jf-17 will use similar weapons as j-10 so PAF have changed their decision in favor of some 5th generation aircraft from china...even if in small numbers...the focus might be to foucs on jf-17 as of now and induct as many f-16s as they can to make up numbers for any future threat till the 5th generation aircraft is available and then use those funds to acquire those aircrafts 

As it has been said China's low cost 5th generation aircraft if focused for exports and so far being a major buyer of Chinese weapons who else can be benefited more than PAF

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## araz

M


Luftwaffe said:


> Don't you people Think at one point you want JF-17 to upgrade bring in new Block and increase the numbers in the inventory on the other hand you people favor F-16s to be procured this is the exact confusion inside PAF and that is how money is wasted decide what you want take one and leave other and stop fooling around. If PAF want to make something out of JF-17 then sacrifice getting more F-16s and invest heavily in JF-17s.
> 
> Now that we are hearing JF-17s coming in more blocks would be equally good as J-10B that is what I questioned a year back and people were bashing me when I said what significant advantage would be between J-10B and FC-1 block III. People can't even keep up with FC-1/JF-17s and we want another headache J-10B. I also questioned if JF-17 Blk III as people call it would have some major changes then why didn't PAF initially invest more it was no big deal when investing $500M PAF could have invest a couple hundred more from the start JF-17 should have been J-10/F-16 equivalent there would have been no look forward to J10s. Will PAF ever learn right management.




The problem is one of economy and of fulfilment of roles. The Hi-lo axis needs to be maintained but the question is how to do that.With US you are having your last Tango in any case and the next generation will have to be chinese. I cant say for sure but the PAF would like the chinese engines to mature a bit more beforeyou put all your eggs in that basket. Ao what economical choice do we have?I dont thi k you need to be a rocket scientist to figure thisone out. F16s remain your first choice for obvious reasons. so the next question is why have we been harping the J10 tune for such a long time. The answer may well be that PAF will maneouvre one against the other to get the besf possible outcome for itself. If we get the 40 odd planes from US at a decent price we can move on and concentrate on JFT , make it better and with the third block most of our needs are met till 2020. If however the USA is not playing ball we may have to setup new infrastructure but can still get J10 in 2015-17 as if it was always planned. .There maybe other permutations regarding chinese help with later iterations of JFT S where there might be some reluctance on the part of our friends. This malaise might need some strategic maneouvering to overcome. There is a lot to be said but perhaps notthe right platform

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## Luftwaffe

Mani2020 said:


> may be because jf-17 will use similar weapons as j-10 so PAF have changed their decision in favor of some 5th generation aircraft from china...even if in small numbers...the focus might be to foucs on jf-17 as of now and induct as many f-16s as they can to make up numbers for any future threat till the 5th generation aircraft is available and then use those funds to acquire those aircrafts
> 
> As it has been said China's low cost 5th generation aircraft if focused for exports and so far being a major buyer of Chinese weapons who else can be benefited more than PAF



My friend Mani, The problem still remains ENGINE an engine for 5th Gen I think would not be ready close to next decade and that to not up to required performance levels and reliability hell they are fooling around telling us about WS-10/13 but no information on performance atleast Americans do admit and release information even regarding F-22 oxygen system US released certain information, I don't know why China won't release information perhaps everything is messed up.



araz said:


> so the next question is why have we been harping the J10 tune for such a long time.



Good question and should be put forward to PAF who are those insiders advocating J-10. 
I believe first preference should be to develop JF-17 to its fullest potential and perhaps you are right maybe 18-20 more F-16s and as a Hi combination instead of J-10s which are still behind Blk 52.

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## Mani2020

Luftwaffe said:


> My friend Mani, The problem still remains ENGINE an engine for 5th Gen I think would not be ready close to next decade and that to not up to required performance levels and reliability hell they are fooling around telling us about WS-10/13 but no information on performance atleast Americans do admit and release information even regarding F-22 oxygen system US released certain information, I don't know why China won't release information perhaps everything is messed up.



But again we would have an option of third party engine, as China will be using russian engines in case its own engine doesnot come up at par ...with china importing bulk of engines and russian earning $$ the later will have no problem ...similar to rd-93 russia is more than willing to provide even an upgraded version .....

Another option is the shenyang using its own engines on j-11s and j-15s so may be they can come up with a variant with more thrust for a twin engine stealth fighter

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## araz

Luftwaffe said:


> My friend Mani, The problem still remains ENGINE an engine for 5th Gen I think would not be ready
> 
> 
> 
> Good question and should be put forward to PAF who are those insiders advocating J-10.
> I believe first preference should be to develop JF-17 to its fullest potential and perhaps you are right maybe 18-20 more F-16s and as a Hi combination instead of J-10s which are still behind Blk 52.



What is possible now may not have been possible a couple of yrs ago and as I said before how much will is there to motivateour chines

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## ghilzai

Mani2020 said:


> But again we would have an option of third party engine, as China will be using russian engines in case its own engine doesnot come up at par ...with china importing bulk of engines and russian earning $$ the later will have no problem ...similar to rd-93 russia is more than willing to provide even an upgraded version .....
> 
> Another option is the shenyang using its own engines on j-11s and j-15s so may be they can come up with a variant with more thrust for a twin engine stealth fighter



Sorry mani for the ignorance, but wasn't j10 touted to be better then f16 block 52, if am not wrong Dodnt the paf official state the f16 will not be the most advance plane in its inventory.

How has this changed?.

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## Luftwaffe

Mani2020 said:


> Another option is the shenyang using its own engines on j-11s and j-15s so may be they can come up with a variant with more thrust for a twin engine stealth fighter



Well Think PAF can live with RD series for a decade before replacing them and so far russians have no problem. Funny thing is chinese testing RD on J-31 and WS/AL-31 on J-10 it clearly shows Chinese engines have failed to deliver or are not on par with even russians engines, and I would not believe if someone comes here saying mass scale engines are in development there is no proof looking at AL-31 orders and RD orders and RD being used on J-31 and AL on J-20 seems the right engines would not be ready before 10 Years. We should gladly pay more to russians for better RD series and just invest in JF-17s when it comes to eastern platform.

Now we don't want to wait for Chinese to experiment with RD on J-10 and maybe russians might not agree to it even though good dollars are offered to them, russians are not that fools either.

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## SQ8

Couple of things being missed by folks here.
Is how the air-staff requirement of an Airforce has to be fluid when it comes to changes within the scenario the country is facing at that time.
When the ASR for the JF-17 was first drawn out it was much like the F-16, Light fighter with a maximum focus on cost effectiveness. Being able to deploy BVR weaponry and provide token CAS. This was in the mid-90's to early 2000's.
The jet flew and there was growth potential beyond what was expected and the ASR evolved along with it.

The same happened for the Entire force ASR: there was supposed to be the light fighter , the "middle weight strike fighter" and the Long range high performance interdiction and air superiority asset. 
Each role had its demands, one had fulfilling the need to protect PAF and critical Pakistani assets round the clock at the highest performance/cost ratio , the other had the latter's role along with Softening up the enemy's offensive backbone so that a reprieve could be sought and time could be bought for diplomacy. The last role required an aircraft to be capable of taking the fight deep within enemy territory and be able to survive the best the enemy could throw at it to complete the desired mission.
This role could range from attacking C4I center's to going after HVAAs.

Back in the early 2000's the Chinese had given the PAF the complete possible growth potential for the J-10 including any twin engines derivatives/cost etc. The PAF liked the idea of an improved J-10 then, with that budget that it had and it fit the strike mix .. not perfectly.. but acceptably to meet its core requirements.(Ideally the PAF wanted either the EF or the Rafale).
Come today's budget crunch and the rapid advancement in what was available for the JF-17. The PAF realized that it while it may not meet its early ASR's set out before, the JF-17 offered the potential to be laden with enough avionics and diverse weaponry at a lesser cost than it first assumed that would give it enough capabilities to compensate for the loss of the J-10 and take the load off the close range offensive punch from the F-16 fleet.
The F-16 fleet then takes on a greater role as the deep interdiction and strike force with the ability to be survivable just enough to complete their mission(even if it is one way).

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## SomeGuy

orangzaib said:


> Ai8!!!! The F-16's B-52 weapons package is superior to the newer generation R-77 and about three different versions of long range BVR's that China possesses along with Su-30....that can detect the F-16 on a foggy day from about 145 KM's??? I leave that up to you. I have no doubt in the jamming and avionics QUALITY part of the deal that the US is far superior. But to say that the SU-30 with its long range radar, tvc engines and about three different long range to mid range BVR's....it's superior to the Pakistani F-16's B-52 is a far fetched. The AMRAAMS given to Pakistan are three generations before the current one. And their range is also somewhat limited when compared to the latest R-77 and other Russian BVR's. Just remember that. The USAF F-16's B-52's WILL ALWAYS be superior to what the Chinese have. Not the Pakistani ones. They are a dumb down version if you will.



Sir,

So you believe the Su-27's and Su-30's in the PLAAF are more than capable of matching F-16 Blk-52s, correct?

You also believe the J-10A is far inferior to F-16 Blk-52s, correct?

Then how do you explain the fact that in PLAAF air combat exercises, J-10A completely dominates the Su-27 and Su-30's?

Seems the J-10A might not be as inferior as you may wish to believe.


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## Viper0011.

SomeGuy said:


> Sir,
> 
> So you believe the Su-27's and Su-30's in the PLAAF are more than capable of matching F-16 Blk-52s, correct?
> You also believe the J-10A is far inferior to F-16 Blk-52s, correct?
> Then how do you explain the fact that in PLAAF air combat exercises, J-10A completely dominates the Su-27 and Su-30's?
> Seems the J-10A might not be as inferior as you may wish to believe.



Mr. you are incorrect on all the above statements. Reread what I wrote. I wrote 'modified' SU-27 and Su-30's (which, once modified, are in the same league of being Su-30 and not Su-27 anymore). Then, I also mentioned the BVR advantage....the Russian jets come with multiple BVR missiles and long ranges too. Almost all of them are longer range than the F-16-B52 Pak has with AMRAAM's (C5). That's a disadvantage in a real BVR scenario (but it has no implications in India and Pakistan's scenario due to the 0 distance pretty much and shared borders). 

J-10A's been winning some simulations but I've also seen articles how it's been getting a kick in the belly too by J-11's and J-16's. So...depends on how you use it (mission profile) and the pilot, as I am assuming all 4 - 4.5 gen jets now a days offer similar avionics capability (American would always be a notch up and more durable and higher quality though). I never called J-10 inferior. J-10A is the initial version. J-10B should be about 80-90% similar to Euro-Canards. So....that's a direct competition to the F-16 B-52 and B-60's....even 80-90% of those. I think China will take about 5-10 more years to go head on with Western technology and quality. So till then, expect some quality limitations from them


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## fatman17

Luftwaffe said:


> Don't you people Think at one point you want JF-17 to upgrade bring in new Block and increase the numbers in the inventory on the other hand you people favor F-16s to be procured this is the exact confusion inside PAF and that is how money is wasted decide what you want take one and leave other and stop fooling around. If PAF want to make something out of JF-17 then sacrifice getting more F-16s and invest heavily in JF-17s.
> 
> Now that we are hearing JF-17s coming in more blocks would be equally good as J-10B that is what I questioned a year back and people were bashing me when I said what significant advantage would be between J-10B and FC-1 block III. People can't even keep up with FC-1/JF-17s and we want another headache J-10B. I also questioned if JF-17 Blk III as people call it would have some major changes then why didn't PAF initially invest more it was no big deal when investing $500M PAF could have invest a couple hundred more from the start JF-17 should have been J-10/F-16 equivalent there would have been no look forward to J10s. Will PAF ever learn right management.




the problem is that at this time we can only speculate what the capabilities of the Blk-2,3 will be. PAF has only alluded to these in interviews of ACM's and such. we dont know the exact parameters.

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## MastanKhan

Luftwaffe said:


> Don't you people Think at one point you want JF-17 to upgrade bring in new Block and increase the numbers in the inventory on the other hand you people favor F-16s to be procured this is the exact confusion inside PAF and that is how money is wasted decide what you want take one and leave other and stop fooling around. If PAF want to make something out of JF-17 then sacrifice getting more F-16s and invest heavily in JF-17s.
> 
> Now that we are hearing JF-17s coming in more blocks would be equally good as J-10B that is what I questioned a year back and people were bashing me when I said what significant advantage would be between J-10B and FC-1 block III. People can't even keep up with FC-1/JF-17s and we want another headache J-10B. I also questioned if JF-17 Blk III as people call it would have some major changes then why didn't PAF initially invest more it was no big deal when investing $500M PAF could have invest a couple hundred more from the start JF-17 should have been J-10/F-16 equivalent there would have been no look forward to J10s. Will PAF ever learn right management.




Hi,

They would never learn---when this organization is being run and managed by incompetent people---nothing progressive and pro active can be expected----.

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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...e-invested-more-j-10s-rather-than-jf-17s.html

There are very distinctive advantages of j10 and if money was not the problem we wont be upgrading jf17 above and beyond the cost effective bracket rather would be going for j10

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## TAC

Luftwaffe said:


> I also questioned if JF-17 Blk III as people call it would have some major changes then why didn't PAF initially invest more it was no big deal when investing $500M PAF could have invest a couple hundred more from the start JF-17 should have been J-10/F-16 equivalent there would have been no look forward to J10s. Will PAF ever learn right management.



Thats like saying why did U.S. bother to make F-16A/B --- why didn't they just make the C/D. It is normal to upgrade in blocks in line with a maturing platform - nothing to do with management. Regardless - that's better discussed on JF-17 thread.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> They would never learn---when this organization is being run and managed by incompetent people---nothing progressive and pro active can be expected----.



Has the U.S. learnt from their 'mistake' of making F-16A/B first and only then investing in F-16C/D or are they also still 'incompetent people' not able to do anything 'progressive' or pro active??

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## Luftwaffe

TAC said:


> Thats like saying why did U.S. bother to make F-16A/B --- why didn't they just make the C/D. It is normal to upgrade in blocks in line with a maturing platform - nothing to do with management. Regardless - that's better discussed on JF-17 thread.



Thankyou you took time to read but you completely missed the point, If JFT was a J-10/F-16 equivalent project you wouldn't be wasting your time and waiting on J-10BXYZ think broadly this is what happened when plans go wrong like French refusal remember? good you people should you people are living in fools paradise. My point is IF JFT is/will be going through incremental upgrades Blocks and all your money and time is focused on JFT you don't need to jump for J-10 and waste your money and time on another platform. I don't have to remind you how much trouble JFT project is going through specially financially so pray tell me why do you want to waste $40M each and 40-45M over the life time costs on each airframe.

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## Luftwaffe

ANTIBODY said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...e-invested-more-j-10s-rather-than-jf-17s.html
> 
> There are very distinctive advantages of j10 and if money was not the problem we wont be upgrading jf17 above and beyond the cost effective bracket rather would be going for j10



If there are distinctive advantages then PAF should have gone for J-10s from the start even J-10A was a fine start perhaps like RD Engines PAF could have approached for AL-31 Engines do we have any initiative at all, this is the scope of our thinking.

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## SQ8

Luftwaffe said:


> Thankyou you took time to read but you completely missed the point, If JFT was a J-10/F-16 equivalent project you wouldn't be wasting your time and waiting on J-10BXYZ think broadly this is what happened when plans go wrong like French refusal remember? good you people should you people are living in fools paradise. My point is IF JFT is/will be going through incremental upgrades Blocks and all your money and time is focused on JFT you don't need to jump for J-10 and waste your money and time on another platform. I don't have to remind you how much trouble JFT project is going through specially financially so pray tell me why do you want to waste $40M each and 40-45M over the life time costs on each airframe.



That is quite close to what is going on. If you can compensate for not having the J-10 by having better JF-17s then that is a good approach.
For all things considered, Pakistani posters should consider the J-10 procurement a lost cause.

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## TAC

Luftwaffe said:


> Thankyou you took time to read but you completely missed the point, If JFT was a J-10/F-16 equivalent project you wouldn't be wasting your time and waiting on J-10BXYZ think broadly this is what happened when plans go wrong like French refusal remember? good you people should you people are living in fools paradise. My point is IF JFT is/will be going through incremental upgrades Blocks and all your money and time is focused on JFT you don't need to jump for J-10 and waste your money and time on another platform. I don't have to remind you how much trouble JFT project is going through specially financially so pray tell me why do you want to waste $40M each and 40-45M over the life time costs on each airframe.



No disrespect to you - but you are quite right - I do not understand your point. The jf-17 was designed to be a cheap as possible and as cutting edge as possible. I do not see what has changed. First JF-17's came in 2007 as block 1 and we are yet to see the first block 2. And frankly what we are expecting in block 2 is not very fantastical in terms of upgrade. Just because it is being upgraded in blocks does not mean that someone has now suddenly decided it should match a J-10B or F-16C/D. The block upgrades are a normal feature of almost every fighter you can think of - J-10A to J-10B, F-16 block 15,30,40,52,60, Mirage 2000 to Mirage 2000-5/8 etc etc etc. This is a normal process as a platform matures and does not mean that all these countries were incompetant because they weren't smart enough to develop the later models first.

Also worth remembering that all this talk about JF-17 being upgraded soooooo much that there will no longer be any need for a J-10B type is nothing more than speculation by members on forums like this and should be seen in that context. The last official word from PAF was that there remained a requirement for a J-10 class fighter and that PAF's 'contract' for the J-10 with China was 'intact' and that the type would be aquired around the 2014-15 timeframe after required improvements to the type had been made.



Oscar said:


> That is quite close to what is going on. If you can compensate for not having the J-10 by having better JF-17s then that is a good approach.
> For all things considered, Pakistani posters should consider the J-10 procurement a lost cause.



I agree that Pakistan will have better JF-17's with each block - but this was expected from the outset. In my opinion these improvements are not designed to compensate for not buying the J-10.

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## TAC

Luftwaffe said:


> If there are distinctive advantages then PAF should have gone for J-10s from the start even J-10A was a fine start perhaps like RD Engines PAF could have approached for AL-31 Engines do we have any initiative at all, this is the scope of our thinking.



J-10A is a heavier class fighter, more expensive to buy and operate - does not realy fit with what PAF wanted from the JF-17. On the contrary, despite meagre resources and limits on who will supply PAF has shown exceptional initiative to get itself where it is now.

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## SQ8

TAC said:


> I agree that Pakistan will have better JF-17's with each block - but this was expected from the outset. In my opinion these improvements are not designed to compensate for not buying the J-10.



No, but they do suffice. 
So that the PAF isnt that upset about letting the J-10 go for now.

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## TAC

Oscar said:


> No, but they do suffice.
> So that the PAF isnt that upset about letting the J-10 go for now.



Agreed - but I would suggest that this just buys PAF some time and reduces the urgency of a J-10B type, does not do away with the need altogether.

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## Luftwaffe

TAC said:


> J-10A is a heavier class fighter, more expensive to buy and operate - does not realy fit with what PAF wanted from the JF-17. On the contrary, despite meagre resources and limits on who will supply PAF has shown exceptional initiative to get itself where it is now.



Please take time to read my last 3-4 posts you are going in the opposite direction to whatever I am saying.

We are speaking of J-10s and all the costs and Years to come not pop corn machine that is replaced every now and then BLK III more or less can say goodbye to J-10B. by 2020+ would be damn time for Twin Engine your neighbor is growing unlike PAF, you need heavy capabilities if not quantity; JFT, F-16 and in Future J-31 or any other comparable can help you provided WILL & CASH.

TAC, what would be the price tag when BLK III is under construction or available would it be cheap....No eventually it might be as much as $30M.

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## MastanKhan

TAC said:


> Thats like saying why did U.S. bother to make F-16A/B --- why didn't they just make the C/D. It is normal to upgrade in blocks in line with a maturing platform - nothing to do with management. Regardless - that's better discussed on JF-17 thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Has the U.S. learnt from their 'mistake' of making F-16A/B first and only then investing in F-16C/D or are they also still 'incompetent people' not able to do anything 'progressive' or pro active??




Tac,

Are you going to take stupidity as your 'hallmark'---what does my post has to do with what the u s has done with F 16 A/B. Kid---I am talking about the procurement history of the PAF in general--- the last 30 plus years and all you can think of is the JF 17---.

That post was meant for Luftwaffe---he knows what I am talking about---it was not meant for you---because you donot have the ability of conscious and reasonable thinking---and neither you have put any effort into learning on your own.

Kid---as a pakistani---your knowledge is newspaper / magazine / media based----as is most other paks---I understand the tragedy that is forced upon you---lack of libraries---lack of books to learn from---I feel pity for your generation and the coming one as well and also the past by gone ones as well---.

It is a tragedy that your only stand is the media based information that you have learnt about---it is like going to a war with cracked engine blocks---gun barrels that are bent and shells that are empty of explosives---just like the biased and empty media bluster and hype.

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## Mani2020

ghilzai said:


> Sorry mani for the ignorance, but wasn't j10 touted to be better then f16 block 52, if am not wrong Dodnt the paf official state the f16 will not be the most advance plane in its inventory.
> 
> How has this changed?.



mate till today nobody has solid grounds to either affirm or refute the claim....some argue on the basis of ego...some enthusiasm and some may be based upon certain but very limited insider information....as i already mentioned in another thread unless and until the system is not tested in war (ALLAH forbid) or in foreign exercises we have nothing much to back our claims ....with your own analysts there is always a degree of biased behavior ... US has been at best degrading russian tech but whenever in the hands of a hard metal the later has always proved its worth .... nobody can assure anyone on the question you asked but based upon the limited data may be yes in some aspects it looks better than block52 but as already said everyone have different opinions and a debate like tested non tested. battle proven etc etc

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## TAC

MastanKhan said:


> Tac,
> 
> Are you going to take stupidity as your 'hallmark'---what does my post has to do with what the u s has done with F 16 A/B. Kid---I am talking about the procurement history of the PAF in general--- the last 30 plus years and all you can think of is the JF 17---.
> 
> That post was meant for Luftwaffe---he knows what I am talking about---it was not meant for you---because you donot have the ability of conscious and reasonable thinking---and neither you have put any effort into learning on your own.
> 
> Kid---as a pakistani---your knowledge is newspaper / magazine / media based----as is most other paks---I understand the tragedy that is forced upon you---lack of libraries---lack of books to learn from---I feel pity for your generation and the coming one as well and also the past by gone ones as well---.
> 
> It is a tragedy that your only stand is the media based information that you have learnt about---it is like going to a war with cracked engine blocks---gun barrels that are bent and shells that are empty of explosives---just like the biased and empty media bluster and hype.



I couldn't possibly take stupidity as my Hallmark as it is already your undisputed Hallmark and you prove that very well with every post. You and Luftwaffe were critical of PAF for not aiming for JF-17 block 3 to start with and I gave F-16 as an example of block upgrades being a norm with all platforms. If thats too hard for you to follow let me know and I'll do a diagram for you. I can't see anything else in your post relevant to this thread or worth a reply - 'kid'.


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## araz

TAC said:


> No disrespect to you - but you are quite right - I do not understand your point. The jf-17 was designed to be a cheap as possible and as cutting edge as possible. I do not see what has changed. First JF-17's came in 2007 as block 1 and we are yet to see the first block 2. And frankly what we are expecting in block 2 is not very fantastical in terms of upgrade. Just because it is being upgraded in blocks does not mean that someone has now suddenly decided it should match a J-10B or F-16C/D. The block upgrades are a normal feature of almost every fighter you can think of - J-10A to J-10B, F-16 block 15,30,40,52,60, Mirage 2000 to Mirage 2000-5/8 etc etc etc. This is a normal process as a platform matures and does not mean that all these countries were incompetant because they weren't smart enough to develop the later models first.
> 
> Also worth remembering that all this talk about JF-17 being upgraded soooooo much that there will no longer be any need for a J-10B type is nothing more than speculation by members on forums like this and should be seen in that context. The last official word from PAF was that there remained a requirement for a J-10 class fighter and that PAF's 'contract' for the J-10 with China was 'intact' and that the type would be aquired around the 2014-15 timeframe after required improvements to the type had been made.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that Pakistan will have better JF-17's with each block - but this was expected from the outset. In my opinion these improvements are not designed to compensate for not buying the J-10.



The philosophy behind JFT was a late 3rd/ 4th Generation fighter which is BVR capable and can safely replace the 3rd generation fighters that PAF has *economically.* It actually turned out a lot better than they had expected and then PAF and CATIC started setting the banch marks a lot higher than previously. There would however always be limitations to what it can do and therefore there is a need for a second fighter of a different class. The problem/ good fortune is that JFT can incorporate all /most of the technologies which J10 has to offer. . One has to look at the armaments that the 2 platforms can carry to see the similarities. So all that the FC20 gives us is a heavier fighter with a better range and radar. the need for a better radar is not there if you are in an environment of AEWACs from both sides.Hence we are forced to ask what will FC20 give us that JFT cant.There is also the headache of procuring them either with Russian engines or with Chinese ones which have not matured 
As against that Bl 52s give us a different set of capabilities which are slightly better than what we get with FC20 and we have the infrastructure and trained pilots in place to replace our obsolete force fairly rapidly. If we have a large enough force the threat of sanctions also can be circumvented for limited periods and there is enough commonality of parts and plenty of providers for it to be a safe bet provided the sanctions do not last for years. 
So back to why we opted for FC20 in the first place. I think we need to turn the pages of history back to see how there were concerns about various facet of supplies and the relative procrastinations on the part of the US with regards to provisions of arms to PAF. The Salala incident again was a stark reminder to both parties that we cant afford to have a divorce without significant penalties on both sides. The Bl 52 is already in PAFs hands so the tech is not new and the entry of rafale means US needs to maintain the balance the forces again. Will 28 more planes do it? I think they will to the extent of giving the offending forces some food for thought rather than barging in at the slightest provocation. The PAF on the other hand always has the spectre of FC20 to hang in front of the US to keep them on the straight and narrow.
So the next question will we ever buy FC20 . I think there is more of a need of a twin engined long ranged fighter for prolonged patrolling and possibly also naval cover. Now with the advent of J31 we think we might have a suitable low vision/stealth fighter with maximum chinese tech which would have matured by then. The F16s would last us just fine till 2020 and onwards whereas the JFT would continue to matureand develop and incorporate newer techas time goes by.
All in all PAF has avenues which are mouth watering. It has probably never had it so good. We have a fantastic little gem with decent 4th generation qualities and armaments which means all the force would now be BVR capable without breaking the bank, an established fourth generation veteran with the reputation of being one of the best in its class and one which will give any other platform a run for its money and prospects of having a next generation fighter from outr neighbours which will come with no strings attached. We dont have money now but the US aid (which is both a curse and a blessing) may end up making procurement of F16s a lot more economical than thought previously.
Araz

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## AstroTrain

Some of the posts in this thread make implications that somehow the much larger J-10 has realized its design limit and it is inferior to the f16? Did I get that right? 

How is the J10 which has bigger engine, greater fuel load and range, larger radar etc., at its design ceiling while the smaller jf17 which is a mig 21 replacement point defense fighter has all this room for block, 2, 3, 4,xxxx? Pure nonsense. 

The j10b is a natural evolution of the J10 fighter just like how many block versions the USA initiated with their f16 program and is meant for local consumption. calling the j10b a dead end fighter compared to the limitless potential of a export dud like the jf17 is absurd. All those pics you see of the j10b starting series production is for the Plaaf. China does not need to sell this fighter, all demand and $$ is from domestic consumption. We certainly don't need $$s from Pakistan to save our aerospace industry especially when Pakistan requires soft loans that will take decades to be paid back. 

The jf17 is an export dud. How many years has this thing been sent to one air show to another with 0 exports contracts. China has substantial political relations with many African countries such as Sudan, Zimbabwe but to date none of them have shown any interest. Sudan is probably one client state ideal for this light fighter and if China put alittle pressure and persuasion but nothing from them, 0. They rather fly migs and Q5 fantans to kill South Sudanese than cheap JF17s. What does that say?

China would be one of the dumbest countries on the planet to develop further blocks of this dud to incorporate Aesa radar and stealth features. If this fighter had some export success maybe 200 plus export orders, that can possibly justify the huge cost to miniturize an Aesa for the tiny jf17 nose and some airframe reshaping but as it stands there are absolutely no justifications to absorb the huge costs of producing another j10b platform. Any further blocks of this fighter will only incorporate minor changes. Again this thing is a mig 21 replacement cheopo why and who in the world will develop this fighter into a f16, J10 medium fighter class? 

My 2 cents, Pakistan can't afford the J10b in the numbers they hoped so just use your limited budget to buy a smaller number of f16s. Even if they still want j10b they will be at the end of the line since all production will meet the overwhelming demand from local consumption plus the bottleneck of producing enough ws10as to meet this fighter and all the flanker derivatives. 

Aside, the recent comments on the J10B falls in line with the absurdity of Pakistan acquiring Qing class subs. 

This forum is pure amateur hour. When the supposed Qing sub first dropped into the water to now the overwhelming agreement on all Chinese forums is the sub is a one off ballistic weapons tester hence the long extended sail. Notice how I said sub not class, only one of this has been built in the past couple of years. Somehow the loony bins on the forum purported that Pakistan would be the first country to receive exports of this sub because the poor PLAN cannot afford to purchase the best china produces, only Pakistan gets first choice. Lol
And you guys stickied this nonsense. Amateur hour. I dont know why Paks are acting like Indians.

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## giant panda

imo,first J-10 do not export now,china is faced with the burning threat of war and meet its own needs first. 

second paf need a multi-purpose fighter more for the next 20 years,but J-10B is still a air supremacy fighter and first designs were for PLAAF. i think paf will not be satisfied J-10B till a J10C multi-purpose version has been appeared , 
J10C multi-purpose version(2 seater,CFT,add 2 new weapon hardpoints , New 140kn WS10G Engine,8 ton weapon load)




*



*
AMF Gyrfalcon 310 has launched now,or paf want to skip J-10 series and get AMF Gyrfalcon 310. It is reported on reliable big shrimps that AMF Gyrfalcon 310 has a great 10 ton weapon load and a combat radius of 1250 km on internal fuel. so AMF Gyrfalcon 310 is a excellent 5 gen stealthy multi-purpose fighter.AMF Gyrfalcon 310 and JF-17 NG series can have the same WS-13A engine(10000kgf) ,That'll reduce maintenance costs and very fit for the paf's next 20 years
AMF Gyrfalcon 310 and JF-17


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## Pfpilot

AstroTrain said:


> Some of the posts in this thread make implications that somehow the much larger J-10 has realized its design limit and it is inferior to the f16? Did I get that right?
> 
> How is the J10 which has bigger engine, greater fuel load and range, larger radar etc., at its design ceiling while the smaller jf17 which is a mig 21 replacement point defense fighter has all this room for block, 2, 3, 4,xxxx? Pure nonsense.
> 
> The j10b is a natural evolution of the J10 fighter just like how many block versions the USA initiated with their f16 program and is meant for local consumption. calling the j10b a dead end fighter compared to the limitless potential of a export dud like the jf17 is absurd. All those pics you see of the j10b starting series production is for the Plaaf. China does not need to sell this fighter, all demand and $$ is from domestic consumption. We certainly don't need $$s from Pakistan to save our aerospace industry especially when Pakistan requires soft loans that will take decades to be paid back.
> 
> The jf17 is an export dud. How many years has this thing been sent to one air show to another with 0 exports contracts. China has substantial political relations with many African countries such as Sudan, Zimbabwe but to date none of them have shown any interest. Sudan is probably one client state ideal for this light fighter and if China put alittle pressure and persuasion but nothing from them, 0. They rather fly migs and Q5 fantans to kill South Sudanese than cheap JF17s. What does that say?
> 
> China would be one of the dumbest countries on the planet to develop further blocks of this dud to incorporate Aesa radar and stealth features. If this fighter had some export success maybe 200 plus export orders, that can possibly justify the huge cost to miniturize an Aesa for the tiny jf17 nose and some airframe reshaping but as it stands there are absolutely no justifications to absorb the huge costs of producing another j10b platform. Any further blocks of this fighter will only incorporate minor changes. Again this thing is a mig 21 replacement cheopo why and who in the world will develop this fighter into a f16, J10 medium fighter class?
> 
> My 2 cents, Pakistan can't afford the J10b in the numbers they hoped so just use your limited budget to buy a smaller number of f16s. Even if they still want j10b they will be at the end of the line since all production will meet the overwhelming demand from local consumption plus the bottleneck of producing enough ws10as to meet this fighter and all the flanker derivatives.
> 
> Aside, the recent comments on the J10B falls in line with the absurdity of Pakistan acquiring Qing class subs.
> 
> This forum is pure amateur hour. When the supposed Qing sub first dropped into the water to now the overwhelming agreement on all Chinese forums is the sub is a one off ballistic weapons tester hence the long extended sail. Notice how I said sub not class, only one of this has been built in the past couple of years. Somehow the loony bins on the forum purported that Pakistan would be the first country to receive exports of this sub because the poor PLAN cannot afford to purchase the best china produces, only Pakistan gets first choice. Lol
> And you guys stickied this nonsense. Amateur hour. I don&#8217;t know why Paks are acting like Indians.



Thank you for enlightening us brainless Pakistanis. Us, lesser people don't even have the comprehension ability to understand the horse manure that is your post. You may have convinced yourself that the j-10 is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but last I checked, it has had an equally bad export run. The reason has more to do with geopolitics than anything. Fighters are the ultimate currency of diplomacy. The Americans, much like the Soviets did, sell fighter planes in what amounts to a bribe. A "reward" for weaker nations for having aided the Americans in their grand goals, or to dangle in front of less co-operative nations. The Chinese don't have that clout, nor do they have the reputation of the Russians or French. How any country, other than those who already fall under the Chinese axis, will ever go for Chinese aircraft is beyond my tiny Pakistani brain's understanding.

Also, each nation has different needs. Why would Pakistan, Bangladesh or some obscure African nation want to procure a j-10 over the jf-17, when its main advantage, of range, is irrelevant to nations so small? Just because something is perfect for China, does not make it so for the rest of the world. If the jf-17 can be bought for far less, provide the capabilities required and withstand the threat perception of said nation, then it would be far more beneficial an investment. Equally importantly, since the Chinese industry does not have the global reputation for excellence in military aviation, though I believe it does deserve it, only those nations with few options and even fewer dollars will be willing to deal with them. Under those circumstances you are unlikely to see those economically weak and geographically small nations splurge on the j-10, which provides many capabilities that are redundant, as compared to the smaller jf-17.

Finally, while you have convinced yourself otherwise, China does want to export its military hardware, for the same reason they export products meant for civilians. Even the richest nation on earth cannot locally fund every development and hope to stay afloat without any foreign consumption. Also, As I mentioned earlier, the more China embroils itself in global politics, the more allies and satellite states it will require to project its power. Fighters, much like the f-16s for America and the Mig-21s for Soviets, will be a crucial part of that expansion. Nothing excites a government, especially a dictator, more than things that fly and blow things up. There are many more Irans and Egypts and North Koreas in this world, ripe for the Chinese industry. Unfortunately, the same social and economic issues that lead them to China as a last resort, will prevent them from buying the more expensive j-10.

I know, us amateurs are beneath you, but I would still argue that the f-16 is far superior to the j-10. The Americans are significantly more advanced in the field of electronics and while the Chinese may get there, they are not at that peak yet. The Americans have a significantly larger knowledge base in regards to Eastern Bloc aircraft, then the Chinese do in regards to the West. They will stay ahead of Chinese developments for the time being, at least. Under those circumstances, the f-16 is a far better investment.

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## Chak Bamu

Now that I think of it, J10B is not really necessary if we are able to get more F-16 cheaply. If we can get a good deal from the Americans, then there is hardly any need for J-10. For the next 3-4 years I do not see our economic woes allowing us much room. Better stick with cheaper JF-17s. J10 has bigger radar and higher Max weapons load as distinct advantages, but that is about it. We can do without it for now.

Thing to go for is J-31 especially if there is going to be engine commonality with JF-17. Let us first fix our economy and then see what we can get.

P.S. People keep saying that J-10 has much better range compared to JF-17. But Huitong's site contradicts that at least as far as J-10A is concerned?


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## SQ8

AstroTrain said:


> Some of the posts in this thread make implications that somehow the much larger J-10 has realized its design limit and it is inferior to the f16? Did I get that right?
> 
> How is the J10 which has bigger engine, greater fuel load and range, larger radar etc., at its design ceiling while the smaller jf17 which is a mig 21 replacement point defense fighter has all this room for block, 2, 3, 4,xxxx? Pure nonsense.
> 
> The j10b is a natural evolution of the J10 fighter just like how many block versions the USA initiated with their f16 program and is meant for local consumption. calling the j10b a dead end fighter compared to the limitless potential of a export dud like the jf17 is absurd. All those pics you see of the j10b starting series production is for the Plaaf. China does not need to sell this fighter, all demand and $$ is from domestic consumption. We certainly don't need $$s from Pakistan to save our aerospace industry especially when Pakistan requires soft loans that will take decades to be paid back.
> 
> The jf17 is an export dud. How many years has this thing been sent to one air show to another with 0 exports contracts. China has substantial political relations with many African countries such as Sudan, Zimbabwe but to date none of them have shown any interest. Sudan is probably one client state ideal for this light fighter and if China put alittle pressure and persuasion but nothing from them, 0. They rather fly migs and Q5 fantans to kill South Sudanese than cheap JF17s. What does that say?
> 
> China would be one of the dumbest countries on the planet to develop further blocks of this dud to incorporate Aesa radar and stealth features. If this fighter had some export success maybe 200 plus export orders, that can possibly justify the huge cost to miniturize an Aesa for the tiny jf17 nose and some airframe reshaping but as it stands there are absolutely no justifications to absorb the huge costs of producing another j10b platform. Any further blocks of this fighter will only incorporate minor changes. Again this thing is a mig 21 replacement cheopo why and who in the world will develop this fighter into a f16, J10 medium fighter class?
> 
> My 2 cents, Pakistan can't afford the J10b in the numbers they hoped so just use your limited budget to buy a smaller number of f16s. Even if they still want j10b they will be at the end of the line since all production will meet the overwhelming demand from local consumption plus the bottleneck of producing enough ws10as to meet this fighter and all the flanker derivatives.
> 
> Aside, the recent comments on the J10B falls in line with the absurdity of Pakistan acquiring Qing class subs.
> 
> This forum is pure amateur hour. When the supposed Qing sub first dropped into the water to now the overwhelming agreement on all Chinese forums is the sub is a one off ballistic weapons tester hence the long extended sail. Notice how I said sub not class, only one of this has been built in the past couple of years. Somehow the loony bins on the forum purported that Pakistan would be the first country to receive exports of this sub because the poor PLAN cannot afford to purchase the best china produces, only Pakistan gets first choice. Lol
> And you guys stickied this nonsense. Amateur hour. I don&#8217;t know why Paks are acting like Indians.



While some points may be valid, what you seem to ignore is that the purchase of the J-10B is not conjecture or assumption but published reports through interviews given throughout the past five years.
If the J-10 did have that much love by the PAF then it..and not the J-11 would be going up in numbers. But that is clearly not the case. The aircraft does have potential put at this point has met its cap in the PLAAF as well.
Now for the JF-17, the export issue is not from Pakistan or China.. its from the PAF refusing to sign export orders unless its own are met.. which means customers have been turned away twice due to the limited production lines.

CATIC has unequivocally stated, that it can deliver a J-10B derivative to Pakistan in the next year provided a contract is signed.. and that is where your contention of soft loans comes in. Pakistan does not want to take anymore loans(which are available in the next 24 hours if we wish). 

This is not from a fanboy but someone who has worked in the industry and has contacts.. someone whose hours of work has gone into trying to make some cheap Chinese hardware work as reliable as our standards demand it. 
Somebody who was sick and tired of having to go through prototypes that wont even start up even after calling up Mr Ling and Hu on email to explain that his bloody chipsets keep frying themselves out... so they can suck it up and we would rather use the Turkish or US systems since at least they turn on as predicted and not keep blowing so-called high quality soldering and IC's now and then.
Which is why throughout the workplace Chinese Electronic equipment is considered Junk because you have to call them up every other month to make sure they meet quality standards. 

It would probably shock people the number of F-6 and F-7 crashes not revealed by the PAF due to those darn things falling out of the sky every now and then in the early 90's. 

SO thank you very much for your friendship.. but remain at that level... because your government, Military Industry owe their enlightenment on the J-10 to us.. since we consider you greater friends than the US to let you peek into their stuff illegally so you can reverse engineer it to make up for your general obsolescence in manufacturing concepts.
Its Pakistan you have to thank for actually teaching your mass producing arses a thing or two about quality..

As for the Qing, the issue was always about money and production capacity.. your government is a lot more accepting of us than you think.

Get down from the pedestal you have set for yourself, because in your effort to admonish Indians.. you are behaving like their trolls.

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## SBD-3

AstroTrain said:


> Some of the posts in this thread make implications that somehow the much larger J-10 has realized its design limit and it is inferior to the f16? Did I get that right?
> 
> How is the J10 which has bigger engine, greater fuel load and range, larger radar etc., at its design ceiling while the smaller jf17 which is a mig 21 replacement point defense fighter has all this room for block, 2, 3, 4,xxxx? Pure nonsense.
> 
> The j10b is a natural evolution of the J10 fighter just like how many block versions the USA initiated with their f16 program and is meant for local consumption. calling the j10b a dead end fighter compared to the limitless potential of a export dud like the jf17 is absurd. All those pics you see of the j10b starting series production is for the Plaaf. China does not need to sell this fighter, all demand and $$ is from domestic consumption. We certainly don't need $$s from Pakistan to save our aerospace industry especially when Pakistan requires soft loans that will take decades to be paid back.
> 
> The jf17 is an export dud. How many years has this thing been sent to one air show to another with 0 exports contracts. China has substantial political relations with many African countries such as Sudan, Zimbabwe but to date none of them have shown any interest. Sudan is probably one client state ideal for this light fighter and if China put alittle pressure and persuasion but nothing from them, 0. They rather fly migs and Q5 fantans to kill South Sudanese than cheap JF17s. What does that say?
> 
> China would be one of the dumbest countries on the planet to develop further blocks of this dud to incorporate Aesa radar and stealth features. If this fighter had some export success maybe 200 plus export orders, that can possibly justify the huge cost to miniturize an Aesa for the tiny jf17 nose and some airframe reshaping but as it stands there are absolutely no justifications to absorb the huge costs of producing another j10b platform. Any further blocks of this fighter will only incorporate minor changes. Again this thing is a mig 21 replacement cheopo why and who in the world will develop this fighter into a f16, J10 medium fighter class?
> 
> My 2 cents, Pakistan can't afford the J10b in the numbers they hoped so just use your limited budget to buy a smaller number of f16s. Even if they still want j10b they will be at the end of the line since all production will meet the overwhelming demand from local consumption plus the bottleneck of producing enough ws10as to meet this fighter and all the flanker derivatives.
> 
> Aside, the recent comments on the J10B falls in line with the absurdity of Pakistan acquiring Qing class subs.
> 
> This forum is pure amateur hour. When the supposed Qing sub first dropped into the water to now the overwhelming agreement on all Chinese forums is the sub is a one off ballistic weapons tester hence the long extended sail. Notice how I said sub not class, only one of this has been built in the past couple of years. Somehow the loony bins on the forum purported that Pakistan would be the first country to receive exports of this sub because the poor PLAN cannot afford to purchase the best china produces, only Pakistan gets first choice. Lol
> And you guys stickied this nonsense. Amateur hour. I don&#8217;t know why Paks are acting like Indians.



Instead of making absured replies to absured posts, try to think over the points. There are thousands of members from all age groups, nationalities and maturities. If you throw (s)hit at somebody who has thrown (s)hit at you, you ll both be left (s)hity in the end. And not the least, such replies would also leave you not better than a troll too.
The point mostly debated here was that 
1-PAF is more than happy with JFT and is ever investing in expanding it capabilities. Do you think PLAAF would be footing the bill for developments of JFT? certainly not. Though the bird was initially intended to cater the needs of both forces, but it never was funded or connected to PLAAF directly. Since PLAAF's requirements would certainly be different from PAF, thats why we saw two different tracks of development i.e. AVIC carrying on her private development under FC-1 program while PAF maintaining her program under JFT. What do you think PT-06 has been doing in CAC while PAF had been running her parallel testing program through TEL at Kamra? Do you believe that the manufacturer of CM-400AKG developed a missile and then marketed it to PAF? J-10 is indeed a bigger plane, with bigger radar and bigger range but had PAF been interested in J-10A blocks and JFT not filling the shoes, we would have seen a deal for J-10s long ago. Thats why i always emphesize on capabilities not the characteristics. a better fuel capacity is useless without the capability that intends to exploit large fuel capacity etc.
2- I have been arguing it that for PAF JFT is the "lo" and thats that (lo in characteristics doesn't necessarily means lo in capabilities). Any contender for hi would have to at least compete and outsmart PAF's Block 52s and MLUs, which still remain a lucrative option for PAF, though risky.
3-J-10 has atleast 6 Blocks (J10A/S 1,2,3 and J-10A/S 4,5,6) and J-10A is itself an improvement over J-10. So uptil J-10B, J-10 has already come a long way. JFT on the other hand, has certainly not evolved like J-10 yet. However, while there remains a significant room for improvement I dont see a drastic evolution like a stealthy design which seems absurd. 
4- J-10B is yet to cover some way as we havent seen any proof of active weapons testing as yet (except a picture with J-10B carrying bombs). And as it is inducted in PLAAF after the start of serial production, PAF would not like to place bet on a new horse and would rather like to wait and watch than procure the platform fresh out of factory.

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## SBD-3

Oscar said:


> While some points may be valid, what you seem to ignore is that the purchase of the J-10B is not conjecture or assumption but published reports through interviews given throughout the past five years.
> If the J-10 did have that much love by the PAF then it..and not the J-11 would be going up in numbers. But that is clearly not the case. The aircraft does have potential put at this point has met its cap in the PLAAF as well.
> Now for the JF-17, the export issue is not from Pakistan or China.. its from the PAF refusing to sign export orders unless its own are met.. which means customers have been turned away twice due to the limited production lines.
> 
> CATIC has unequivocally stated, that it can deliver a J-10B derivative to Pakistan in the next year provided a contract is signed.. and that is where your contention of soft loans comes in. Pakistan does not want to take anymore loans(which are available in the next 24 hours if we wish).
> 
> This is not from a fanboy but someone who has worked in the industry and has contacts.. someone whose hours of work has gone into trying to make some cheap Chinese hardware work as reliable as our standards demand it.
> Somebody who was sick and tired of having to go through prototypes that wont even start up even after calling up Mr Ling and Hu on email to explain that his bloody chipsets keep frying themselves out... so they can suck it up and we would rather use the Turkish or US systems since at least they turn on as predicted and not keep blowing so-called high quality soldering and IC's now and then.
> Which is why throughout the workplace Chinese Electronic equipment is considered Junk because you have to call them up every other month to make sure they meet quality standards.
> 
> It would probably shock people the number of F-6 and F-7 crashes not revealed by the PAF due to those darn things falling out of the sky every now and then in the early 90's.
> 
> SO thank you very much for your friendship.. but remain at that level... because your government, Military Industry owe their enlightenment on the J-10 to us.. since we consider you greater friends than the US to let you peek into their stuff illegally so you can reverse engineer it to make up for your general obsolescence in manufacturing concepts.
> Its Pakistan you have to thank for actually teaching your mass producing arses a thing or two about quality..
> 
> As for the Qing, the issue was always about money and production capacity.. your government is a lot more accepting of us than you think.
> 
> Get down from the pedestal you have set for yourself, because in your effort to admonish Indians.. you are behaving like their trolls.


You have been overly harsh about the issue. What we must accept that it was CAC who trained KAMRA over production. While you may differ from someone, but try not to start a war of words. I mean you can always explain in neutral tone but the message seems more like as if you took it personal (Pardon me for being direct though)


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## SQ8

hasnain0099 said:


> You have been overly harsh about the issue. What we must accept that it was CAC who trained KAMRA over production. While you may differ from someone, but try not to start a war of words. I mean you can always explain in neutral tone but the message seems more like as if you took it personal (Pardon me for being direct though)



I must agree that I did, because while I have the utmost respect for the Chinese and their invaluable assistance.. I detest the idea to think that they taught us everything.. Yes they did at times literally help us to get walking.. but its not like we did not being anything tangible into the equation. 
The J-10 owes a lot to us letting the Chinese have their way with the F-16.. shipping off bits and pieces to them. 
We chose to share information on systems, we chose to share knowledge on warfare tactics.. 
The Chinese were still stuck in straight and level GCI till they gleaned fighting tactics from CCS graduates.
Its not a one way relationship... otherwise.. truly.. what has Pakistan to offer to the Chinese today??

That is the view propagated by our eastern neighbors.. .and one that this poster seems to have picked up

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## TAC

Luftwaffe said:


> Please take time to read my last 3-4 posts you are going in the opposite direction to whatever I am saying.
> 
> We are speaking of J-10s and all the costs and Years to come not pop corn machine that is replaced every now and then BLK III more or less can say goodbye to J-10B. by 2020+ would be damn time for Twin Engine your neighbor is growing unlike PAF, you need heavy capabilities if not quantity; JFT, F-16 and in Future J-31 or any other comparable can help you provided WILL & CASH.
> 
> TAC, what would be the price tag when BLK III is under construction or available would it be cheap....No eventually it might be as much as $30M.



Jf-17 '_BLK III more or less can say goodbye to J-10B'_ -- realy? So you know what JF-17 BLK III is going to include and an official source to back that up?
You want me to tell you what a BLK III JF-17 will cost when nobody even knows what a JF-17 BLK III will include --- other than idle speculation on forums like this ofcoarse. I understand and accept speculation on threads like this but to come up with speculative cost of a speculative specification of a block III is a step too far for me - sorry. 
In my opinion - and thats all it is - J-10B is the best choice for PAF. I sincerely hope they don't go for more newbuild F-16's.

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## SQ8

TAC said:


> Jf-17 '_BLK III more or less can say goodbye to J-10B'_ -- realy? So you know what JF-17 BLK III is going to include and an official source to back that up?
> You want me to tell you what a BLK III JF-17 will cost when nobody even knows what a JF-17 BLK III will include --- other than idle speculation on forums like this ofcoarse. I understand and accept speculation on threads like this but to come up with speculative cost of a speculative specification of a block III is a step too far for me - sorry.
> In my opinion - and thats all it is - J-10B is the best choice for PAF.* I sincerely hope they don't go for more newbuild F-16's.*



Older airframe are the focus. 

And yes, apart from further improvements in electronics as is logical.. there is No massive advancement in terms of either airframe or design in the Block-III.. 
Its the same process as with the F-16.. see what the Block-15 was.. see what the Block-50 is.

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## Luftwaffe

TAC said:


> realy? So you know what JF-17 BLK III is going to include and an official source to back that up?



No but I see Now you are showing reluctance in capabilities of BLK III so does it mean when one thing fails jump to another. Never the less it is an important project it cannot be sacrificed for J-10, Your idea-opinion is illogical. You have no money nor PAF is good at getting cash out of government. Look at your rupee against dollar and tell me things come cheap or not, This is not me who is saying what PAF dreams of in BLK III but we can all imagine it should be major upgrades and you better accept it things don't come cheap JFT will never remain $20M a pop hell you have not even included over the life time costs which take a single JFT at $40M+. 

Now we can come back to J-10 Thread but in my opinion there is nothing much left to discuss accept for posting nice photos of J-10.


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## SQ8

Luftwaffe said:


> *Now we can come back to J-10 Thread but in my opinion there is nothing much left to discuss accept for posting nice photos of J-10.*



Agreed a 110%.

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## giant panda

Actually,paf test pilots often fly J-10 at CAC,so paf knows well about the ability of J-10.a chinese military fan was talking with paf test pilot in zhuhai airshow 2012.

link;
¹ØÓÚj10µÄËÙ¶È£¬½ñÌìÎÊÁËÏÂ°Í»ùË¹Ì¹µÄ·ÉÐÐÔ±£¨¸ô±ÚÌû×ÓÒ²Ó¦Ö¤Ã÷ÁË×¼È·£©-¿Õ¾ü°æ-³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³-×î¾ßÓ°ÏìÁ¦¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³ -

google


J10 speed these days look in Zhuhai Airshow. Today next to in jf17 simulator encountered a bit of Pakistani pilots. So approached climb a few words.
The Pilots would say a little Chinese, but also two Sichuan dialect, I just also from Sichuan, a large three very pleasant to enter the conversation.
First on the jf-17 talked about. He has been flying jf-17 of ten days. paf overall jf-17 is quite satisfactory. When it comes to contrast and f16, he make a gesture and show half and half, we have the opportunity. Speaking of the engine, said rd93 will pursue another engine of China, he nodded very positive and the Chinese say: Yes! Yes! Guizhou!
Then the topic naturally from Chengdu Speaking j10. I asked if he felt j10 Why, he affirmed, and the Chinese say: 132!
Then it comes to j-10 contrast. He immediately excited, j10 better expression! More powerful, stronger engine! Mentioned particularly specialized in English, radar and electronic equipment is very good (damn also mentioned what kind of equipment, the results just sentence not hear, forgive my English sucks).
After the way you mentioned these days of panels on the data, jf17 1.6 speed, j-10 1.8. He touches on this point there is no objection. Are before I say half, he blurted out, say the figures. I asked him, and this data is carrying missile? He has given a positive response. I confirm simply ask directly, j10 with two missiles fly 1.8 ma? He once again gives a definite answer. And so I did not ask, and said in English PL12. It fell to my surprise. I did not react, said PL11? In fact, my basic impression 10 hanging all 11. The result, he is given a positive reply. And repeated in English, said that with two pl-12 can fly 1.8.
I asked him a lot of magazines that the J10 can fly 2.0 mach. Him to give a definite answer, say j-10 can. I asked two missile fly 2.0? He said, "Yes, j-10 can. I ask, then, that some magazines to 2.2 Oh! Really? He looked very differences, shaking her head 2.2? Not ...... I said can not you? Without eggs, flying alone? Fastest? At this time, the pilot comrades directly laughed. Said NO.NO.NO. I said, because the combat not naked Fly ... he continued to smile and give a positive answer a complex. .
Asked him later you will import j-10? He smiled and paused to say no comment, said we all laughed. .
Finally, we also talked for the next four generations of figter, to say I hope paf will also be equipped with stealth fighter early.
Incidentally, the officers and soldiers of the Pakistan Air Force have a good talk, very friendly. Some basic non-involved secret question, they say it is also very enthusiastic.
The same question asked in the aircraft or the manufacturers of the people, although the attitude is also very friendly, but the technology and state all do not know or inconvenient to answer.

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## giant panda

Chak Bamu said:


> Now that I think of it, J10B is not really necessary if we are able to get more F-16 cheaply. If we can get a good deal from the Americans, then there is hardly any need for J-10. For the next 3-4 years I do not see our economic woes allowing us much room. Better stick with cheaper JF-17s. J10 has bigger radar and higher Max weapons load as distinct advantages, but that is about it. We can do without it for now.
> 
> Thing to go for is J-31 especially if there is going to be engine commonality with JF-17. Let us first fix our economy and then see what we can get.
> 
> P.S. People keep saying that J-10 has much better range compared to JF-17. But Huitong's site contradicts that at least as far as J-10A is concerned?













According to the interview of the head of PAC and paf,paf were raising money to build a major repair line of RD-93 .Also paf spend some money to support the development of the new upgraded engine with thrust weight ratio>8.5 .

if paf buy AMF-310,then sharing the resources of a major repair line between jf-17 and AMF-310.

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## SQ8

giant panda said:


> Actually,paf test pilots often fly J-10 at CAC,so paf knows well about the ability of J-10.a chinese military fan was talking with paf test pilot in zhuhai airshow 2012.
> 
> link;
> ¹ØÓÚj10µÄËÙ¶È£¬½ñÌìÎÊÁËÏÂ°Í»ùË¹Ì¹µÄ·ÉÐÐÔ±£¨¸ô±ÚÌû×ÓÒ²Ó¦Ö¤Ã÷ÁË×¼È·£©-¿Õ¾ü°æ-³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³-×î¾ßÓ°ÏìÁ¦¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³ -
> 
> google
> 
> 
> J10 speed these days look in Zhuhai Airshow. Today next to in jf17 simulator encountered a bit of Pakistani pilots. So approached climb a few words.
> The Pilots would say a little Chinese, but also two Sichuan dialect, I just also from Sichuan, a large three very pleasant to enter the conversation.
> First on the jf-17 talked about. He has been flying jf-17 of ten days. paf overall jf-17 is quite satisfactory. When it comes to contrast and f16, he make a gesture and show half and half, we have the opportunity. Speaking of the engine, said rd93 will pursue another engine of China, he nodded very positive and the Chinese say: Yes! Yes! Guizhou!
> Then the topic naturally from Chengdu Speaking j10. I asked if he felt j10 Why, he affirmed, and the Chinese say: 132!
> Then it comes to j-10 contrast. He immediately excited, j10 better expression! More powerful, stronger engine! Mentioned particularly specialized in English, radar and electronic equipment is very good (damn also mentioned what kind of equipment, the results just sentence not hear, forgive my English sucks).
> After the way you mentioned these days of panels on the data, jf17 1.6 speed, j-10 1.8. He touches on this point there is no objection. Are before I say half, he blurted out, say the figures. I asked him, and this data is carrying missile? He has given a positive response. I confirm simply ask directly, j10 with two missiles fly 1.8 ma? He once again gives a definite answer. And so I did not ask, and said in English PL12. It fell to my surprise. I did not react, said PL11? In fact, my basic impression 10 hanging all 11. The result, he is given a positive reply. And repeated in English, said that with two pl-12 can fly 1.8.
> I asked him a lot of magazines that the J10 can fly 2.0 mach. Him to give a definite answer, say j-10 can. I asked two missile fly 2.0? He said, "Yes, j-10 can. I ask, then, that some magazines to 2.2 Oh! Really? He looked very differences, shaking her head 2.2? Not ...... I said can not you? Without eggs, flying alone? Fastest? At this time, the pilot comrades directly laughed. Said NO.NO.NO. I said, because the combat not naked Fly ... he continued to smile and give a positive answer a complex. .
> Asked him later you will import j-10? He smiled and paused to say no comment, said we all laughed. .
> Finally, we also talked for the next four generations of figter, to say I hope paf will also be equipped with stealth fighter early.
> Incidentally, the officers and soldiers of the Pakistan Air Force have a good talk, very friendly. Some basic non-involved secret question, they say it is also very enthusiastic.
> The same question asked in the aircraft or the manufacturers of the people, although the attitude is also very friendly, but the technology and state all do not know or inconvenient to answer.



The statement has been said again and again..
the question is not of our Chinese friends denying us equipment.. 
its of our own will and partial honor(along with shame) that we refuse to take any more loans from them to buy their own equipment.
We want to look them in the eye with the same pride(and affection) they look at us.. 
We want to prove that we are not just a burden on them, but equal assists.

Till then , there will be little in terms of purchases on loans anymore.

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## giant panda

It isnot simply a question of money,China is menaced by war from US.and Japan,However,Cac production capacity of 60 J-10s in 2012 ,Sac have less. The quantity of new fighters is insufficient to meet the requirements of plaaf and planaf. Otherwise ,china would never buy some su35s from Russia.The export of J-10 will have to be some years till J-20 in operation


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## MastanKhan

Oscar,

Thank you for your posts. People are clueless as to how much paf has contributed in fighter aircraft development in china.

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## Green Bullet

You should not take any notice from this individual and his words, since the vast majority of Chinese love Pakistan and give us respect. Personally traveling around China, actually showed me how great are friendship is from military to civilian population. Pakistan at this current time should focus on the economical aspect and less on the military side. China under Deng Xiaoping is a prime example and we should try to emulate such good polices which would eventually lead to a strong military with the support of China.

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## 帅的一匹

Oscar said:


> The statement has been said again and again..
> the question is not of our Chinese friends denying us equipment..
> its of our own will and partial honor(along with shame) that we refuse to take any more loans from them to buy their own equipment.
> We want to look them in the eye with the same pride(and affection) they look at us..
> We want to prove that we are not just a burden on them, but equal assists.
> 
> Till then , there will be little in terms of purchases on loans anymore.


Pakistan is good assistance to China aviation industry, without any doubt. Personally, I prefer PAF pilots flying our bird. Every one should calm down and we are friends.
PAF enable China reverse F16 to improve the design of J10, no one in the world willing to do that except for Dear Pakistan. You always wan to Share the best you have with your best friend. As to soft loan, older brother will never care whether the elder one pay back the check or not, only Russia and India talk money in the first place. Oscar , I understand your feeling and passion.

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## Anony

If Jf-17 blk 2 can match technological capabilities of J-10A and blk3 to that of J-10B, then PAF don't need J-10. As Jf-17 with 850km combat radius flying from front air bases of Pakistan can cover almost all the western air bases of India. And 3.5 ton payload of Jf-17, which surely will see go upto 4ton+ in subsequent blk2 or blk3 will be enough firepower.

One need to understand that Jf-17 is not a stealthy design, thus it can't remain in air undetected. Thus it will not act as a bomber. It will fly with pre-destined mission and will try to return to base as early as possible after completing it's mission. 

These bombing role will be done by J-31 in future.

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## ufone

wanglaokan said:


> Pakistan is good assistance to China aviation industry, without any doubt. Personally, I prefer PAF pilots flying our bird. Every one should calm down and we are friends.
> PAF enable China reverse F16 to improve the design of J10, no one in the world willing to do that except for Dear Pakistan. You always wan to Share the best you have with your best friend. As to soft loan, older brother will never care whether the elder one pay back the check or not, only Russia and India talk money in the first place. Oscar , I understand your feeling and passion.



Dear friend, what chinese and pak members post here hardly matters to our relation as we r well awear that there is already a lot lot of trust between these two nation - military to military, govt to govt and people to people but the thing that worries us is our poor economy. May b we will get the tecs. Of j10b in the latter blocks of jf 17 yet i think that there is no comparision. I have always dreamt of seeing j10 in pak color and those who advocate of having more f16 r neither patriotic nor they have any sence of investment. I pesonally think that paf should wait for at least 3 to 4 year till our brothers come out with some good news regarding engines.

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## Chak Bamu

We can wait 3-4 years no problem. Meanwhile if we can get our hands on more F-16s, we should make an effort to acquire those. But after 3-4 years, J-31 might look more lucrative. That is the gist of the matter.


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## Xracer

Chak Bamu said:


> We can wait 3-4 years no problem. Meanwhile if we can get our hands on more F-16s, we should make an effort to acquire those. But after 3-4 years, J-31 might look more lucrative. That is the gist of the matter.


Wasn't j10 coming 2013?????????????


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## AwA.

Xracer said:


> Wasn't j10 coming 2013?????????????



No! it was 2014 - 2015. Let 2015 pass then get worried if J-10 will not be inducted by that time.


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## Nishan_101

I think PAF should shift the J-10BS procurement as we all are hearing from different sources the J-31 is the aircraft they really like and I am hopeful that they will induct at least 70 of them in the name of just 45-50. Ameen


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## Gentelman

Dont know if posted before..........
http://military-photoshops.blogspot.com/2012/04/chengdu-j-10-s-in-paf-mirage-iiiv-color.html
well here we go........
PAF ordered its first batch of 24 J-10 S in 2006 to replace its older Mirage V fighter/bombers and a second batch comprising 18 J-10 S to form 3 strike squadrons. These aircraft will be used in deep strike at key strategic enemy positions during the first wave of attack .

The J-10 (Jian 10 or Fighter 10) is China's indigenously built multirole fighter aircraft developed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry. Chengdu Aircraft Industry is part of the China Aviation Industry Corporation I (AVIC I). In the West the J-10 aircraft is known as the Vigorous Dragon.

It is estimated that up to 300 J-10 fighter aircraft will be manufactured. China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) includes the army, navy, air force and strategic rocket force. The air force (AFPLA) has 200 fighter and fighter ground attack squadrons and 120 strike fighter squadrons.

The J-10 aircraft is considered the replacement for the J-7 and Q-5. The air force currently operates about 250 J-7 (MiG-21) air defence and attack aircraft and about 500 Q-5 attack aircraft.

China formally announced the J-10 in February 2007. The existence of the J-10 was first reported in 1994, but the J-10 programme was started in 1988 and the first flight of the single seat aircraft took place in 1998. A two-seater variant made its first flight in 2003.

There are reports that the J-10 entered service in 2005 and is operational in single seater and two seater versions in at least two PLA air force squadrons.

The first native fourth-generation J-10 aircraft was unveiled by the air force in April 2010. Four J-10 fighter jets were showcased by the 24th fighter division of AFPLA. Pakistan will receive the first export versions of the J-10, up to 36 aircraft, by 2015. China and Pakistan have worked closely on the development of another fighter aircraft, the JF-17 or FC-1 light fighter aircraft.






In late-February 2006, the President of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf, toured the J-10 and JF-17 production facilities during which the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was offered the J-10,[18] and the purchase of 36 J-10s was approved on 12 April 2006. The J-10s would be modified to Pakistani requirements, and would equip PAF squadrons quantity around 150 to 200 from 2014&#8211;2015 and be known as the FC-20.

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## araz

Gentelman said:


> Dont know if posted before..........
> well here we go........
> PAF ordered its first batch of 24 J-10 S in 2006 to replace its older Mirage V fighter/bombers and a second batch comprising 18 J-10 S to form 3 strike squadrons. These aircraft will be used in deep strike at key strategic enemy positions during the first wave of attack .
> 
> The J-10 (Jian 10 or Fighter 10) is China's indigenously built multirole fighter aircraft developed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry. Chengdu Aircraft Industry is part of the China Aviation Industry Corporation I (AVIC I). In the West the J-10 aircraft is known as the Vigorous Dragon.
> 
> It is estimated that up to 300 J-10 fighter aircraft will be manufactured. China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) includes the army, navy, air force and strategic rocket force. The air force (AFPLA) has 200 fighter and fighter ground attack squadrons and 120 strike fighter squadrons.
> 
> The J-10 aircraft is considered the replacement for the J-7 and Q-5. The air force currently operates about 250 J-7 (MiG-21) air defence and attack aircraft and about 500 Q-5 attack aircraft.
> 
> China formally announced the J-10 in February 2007. The existence of the J-10 was first reported in 1994, but the J-10 programme was started in 1988 and the first flight of the single seat aircraft took place in 1998. A two-seater variant made its first flight in 2003.
> 
> There are reports that the J-10 entered service in 2005 and is operational in single seater and two seater versions in at least two PLA air force squadrons.
> 
> The first native fourth-generation J-10 aircraft was unveiled by the air force in April 2010. Four J-10 fighter jets were showcased by the 24th fighter division of AFPLA. Pakistan will receive the first export versions of the J-10, up to 36 aircraft, by 2015. China and Pakistan have worked closely on the development of another fighter aircraft, the JF-17 or FC-1 light fighter aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In late-February 2006, the President of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf, toured the J-10 and JF-17 production facilities during which the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was offered the J-10,[18] and the purchase of 36 J-10s was approved on 12 April 2006. The J-10s would be modified to Pakistani requirements, and would equip PAF squadrons quantity around 150 to 200 from 20142015 and be known as the FC-20.



An order to me means a signerd contract. PAF might have shown interest but to my knowledge no contract was ever signed, so what remains is interest only which can change with your needs.
Araz


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## Gentelman

araz said:


> An order to me means a signerd contract. PAF might have shown interest but to my knowledge no contract was ever signed, so what remains is interest only which can change with your needs.
> Araz



The Jamestown Foundation: J-10: The New Cornerstone of Sino-Pakistani Defense Cooperation
PAF Falcons Forums &bull; View topic - Pakistan buying Chinese FC-20/J-10 Fighters
i read on many places about signed contact of 36 J-10...
it was also reported in Akhbar-e-Jahan back in 2009...


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## Luftwaffe

Gentelman said:


> The Jamestown Foundation: J-10: The New Cornerstone of Sino-Pakistani Defense Cooperation
> PAF Falcons Forums  View topic - Pakistan buying Chinese FC-20/J-10 Fighters
> i read on many places about signed contact of 36 J-10...
> it was also reported in Akhbar-e-Jahan back in 2009...



Nothing is going to come before orders of 150 JFTs are fulfilled even for JFTs PAF is struggling with cash unfortunately.

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## Gentelman

Luftwaffe said:


> Nothing is going to come before orders of 150 JFTs are fulfilled even for JFTs PAF is struggling with cash unfortunately.



well J-10 according to my guess will be started receiving after 2015...
well PAF had done a lot of hard work in aquariums of AWACS,air to air refulling,BVR capability and profressed much also in field of UAV and produced their own fighters...
so i guess its okkk for 10 years. 
we already done much work...
now its time to replace old 3rd gen fleet and jump to entire 4th+ gen fleet.....


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## scarcry

Passive phase arrays typically use large amplifiers that produce all of the microwave transmit signal for the antenna. Phase shifters typically consist of waveguide elements that contain phase shifters controlled by magnetic field, voltage gradient, or equivalent technology.

Hence the nodes.

India and china should tie up for AESA tech.


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## Gentelman

scarcry said:


> Passive phase arrays typically use large amplifiers that produce all of the microwave transmit signal for the antenna. Phase shifters typically consist of waveguide elements that contain phase shifters controlled by magnetic field, voltage gradient, or equivalent technology.
> 
> Hence the nodes.
> 
> India and china should tie up for AESA tech.



This will effect ur deals with Uncle Sam....
Americans can't affort friendship and cooperation b/w china and india thats why they are supplying u arms.....
1st they wouldnot let any cooperation happen b/w china and india through their sources bt if this impossible happened then India will not be able to purchase any spare or new weapons from America...


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## scarcry

SHAME we were destined to be friends not rivals....


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## Zarvan

araz said:


> An order to me means a signerd contract. PAF might have shown interest but to my knowledge no contract was ever signed, so what remains is interest only which can change with your needs.
> Araz


When on earth Pakistan will receive these systems ?


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## ANG

Zarvan said:


> When on earth Pakistan will receive these systems ?



Hi Mr. Zarvan, I understand your frustration on this matter. However, the simple truth is Pakistan does not have the money, even a few billion dollars to buy these machines. 

It is really sad how this current civilian administration has managed the economy into the ground. Just sad a country of 180million cannot afford a few billion to buy these key weapon systems.


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## air marshal

J-10B production on hold

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## naseem shah

J-10B
The J-10B not only incorporates an AESA/PESA radar but also state of the art ECMs (Electronic-Counter Measures) housed in its curved tail and DSI (Divert less Supersonic Inlet) intakes with reduced RCS making it hard to be detected on the radar, therefore perfect to compete with the French Rafale which also incorporates &#8216;SPECTRA&#8217; configuration, considered to be the best ECMs in the market right now.

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## Safriz

air marshal said:


> J-10B production on hold



So it wasnt just money after all?
J-10B looks like hit some technical problems which need to be resolved..
May be thats why PAF still didnt get them.


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## sancho

air marshal said:


> J-10B production on hold



Interesting, but is there any Chinese source to confirm that? At least the order of 40 x J10A should be mentioned anywhere or? Western sources are often speculating about Chinese orders and developments and since they don't even have a clue why the serial production is delayed, a confirmation would be good.


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## 帅的一匹

J10b will finally inducted in PLAAF for 100% sure, I mean why will deny a state of art 4.5+gen fighter? Recently there are 14 J10A undergoing before delivery flyin test in CAC, including several JF17.


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## trident2010

Its a long time since the J-10B in testing stages.
Why not PAF get 1-2 squadrons of J-10A and upgrade/replace it to J-10B when it is ready for service? Since PLAAF is using J-10A for sometime now, it must be a decent machine on its own.


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## 帅的一匹

trident2010 said:


> Its a long time since the J-10B in testing stages.
> Why not PAF get 1-2 squadrons of J-10A and upgrade/replace it to J-10B when it is ready for service? Since PLAAF is using J-10A for sometime now, it must be a decent machine on its own.


J10b's should be a 4.5gen fighters while J10A is typical 4th gen fighter, two have totally different fuselage and ability. PAF will have to wait a little longer to get J10B. India is inducting Rafale at this very moment, J10B is a competent rival.

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## sancho

trident2010 said:


> Its a long time since the J-10B in testing stages.
> Why not PAF get 1-2 squadrons of J-10A and upgrade/replace it to J-10B when it is ready for service? Since PLAAF is using J-10A for sometime now, it must be a decent machine on its own.



Because it's capability wise too close to JF 17 that will be inducted now as well, wouldn't be an advantage for PAF and even if the J10B turns out to be an advantage needs to be seen.

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## trident2010

sancho said:


> even if the J10B turns out to be an advantage needs to be seen.



If we go by the reports then it seems to be a potent machine. However, everything depends upon how China pulls up 4.5 gen technologies including engines, avionics, weapons etc.


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## sancho

trident2010 said:


> If we go by the reports then it seems to be a potent machine. However, everything depends upon how China pulls up 4.5 gen technologies including engines, avionics, weapons etc.



J10A looked better that it's specs were compared to similar generation of western fighters, which is why I hoped for a real improvement of the B version, but it seems more like a light improvement with the focus already on NG fighters.


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## naseem shah

Compares the two models, we note that the new F-10b has the following improvements compared with J -10.
1, airspeed control:
Lengthened the airspeed tubes may be tested in order to obtain more accurate data, after all, J-10b have been using the new flight envelope.
2, nose shape, coating:
J -10 relative to the apparent head drooping, and adduction. Shape similar to the U.S. military's new model of F-16 fighter planes. This is equipped with radar, the original should not be suited to the new model of the radome. Radar should be nor is it kjl3 type of. Integrated with the fuselage nose with camouflage paint. Is not explaining the new wave penetrating radar is good, then more powerful?
3, airborne radar and fire control:
Air China had been reported some time ago in airborne phased array radar began to experiment installed message. Our radar technology has made considerable progress. Should have more new radar detection model, there may be indispensable-to-ground precision attack capabilities of the synthetic aperture. With the new radar, fire control system should also be upgraded to J-10b is more comprehensive. Our army on the data link system has also been familiar with and use of F-10b should be able to use bar.
4, inlet:
Intake changed in the fc-1 on the successful application of the dsi inlet to help improve the performance of subsonic aircraft, reduce aircraft empty weight, reduce radar reflection. Increased load capacity. Can store more fuel, or to add a more ammunition.
5 photoelectric Radar:
F-10b in front of the cockpit there is a circular protrusion, shape, and installation location and Su -27 / oeps -27 J -11 on the same optical fire control system. We can confirm that the J-10b to install the same type of device performance should be a conservative estimate and oeps -27 optical fire control system similar to the J-10b have a machine you can not open mine detection, target function. Eliminating the need for instructions to add a pod photoelectric processes, to add a low-altitude navigation pod can execute combat missions. J-10b of the multi-functionality with the upgrade. J -10 task model of the pylons on the photoelectric and navigation around the cannon, will inevitably be affected.
6, cannon:
J-10 next to the cannon in the landing gear, you can see a clear smoke cooling device. The J-10b cannon smoke less than the outside cooling device, we should be improved.
7, tail of electronic equipment:
Note that tail, vertical tail J-10 straightforward, back-end there are some UHF antennas. J-10b of the tail like a f-16 has a rectangular, like processes, the antenna protrudes from before disappeared. This rectangle may be a radome, which integrates a variety of antennas. Beams above the engine nozzle is also different. Personally believe that the use of a new radar warning receiver, we can see that the entire aircraft electronic warfare systems may be upgraded, self-defense capability should be stronger.
According to the above. Personally think that the J -10 J-10b is a multi-purpose family model. Various improvements such as increasing the low-speed performance, enhanced radar, optical equipment is installed as an air superiority will be a simple task turned into a multi-task J -10 ability to multi-role fighter that improve the line and f-16 is very similar. Chinese-made platform for third-generation fighter to make the best use of them. After China's national air may be from the F-11a / b, J -10 / 10a, F -8 modified implementation of the air superiority missions, from the J-11bs, J-10b, J H-7a implementation of the right to strike, and other multi-task , J H-7a-based implementation of the associated electronic warfare electronic warfare and "Wild Weasel" mission of the combat mode. Conversion to the offensive and defensive capabilities. J -10 J-10b, and should be a complementary relationship, there should be no question of who is whom replaced.


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## naseem shah

FC-1 fighter is more suitable for equipping Chinese air force than J-10 - China Military Report


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## 帅的一匹

There is no way JF17 is better than J10b, not in the same class. One is LCA, another on is MMRCA.


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## 帅的一匹

?-10????????_????_?????--??????--????????
J10A with composite pylon.


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## 帅的一匹

Recently I found the new version of J10b is enlarged( we can say lengthened) than the original prototype Found in year 2009.


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## Dazzler

H. Khan....@ pakdef

*"J-10B Aircraft# 5 (1035) is actually FC-20 being tested for PAF. It is powered by WS-10A"*

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## Safriz

nabil_05 said:


> H. Khan....@ pakdef
> 
> *"J-10B Aircraft# 5 (1035) is actually FC-20 being tested for PAF. It is powered by WS-10A"*



Who is H.khan?
What are his credentials?
I have a permaban on pakdef forum...banned on introduction,no reason given 
So cant read their forum propperly.
But i do see H.khan from pakdef quoted on many pakistani forums.


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## Dazzler

Safriz said:


> Who is H.khan?
> What are his credentials?
> I have a permaban on pakdef forum...banned on introduction,no reason given
> So cant read their forum propperly.
> But i do see H.khan from pakdef quoted on many pakistani forums.



He is most reliable/ resourceful insider at pakdef forum, many of his tweets have seen the light of the day. No wonder he is quoted over and over.

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## 帅的一匹

Good news, PAF will be much stronger with J10b.


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## Donatello

nabil_05 said:


> H. Khan....@ pakdef
> 
> *"J-10B Aircraft# 5 (1035) is actually FC-20 being tested for PAF. It is powered by WS-10A"*



Isn't this the kind of information that should not be on the internet forums?

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## DANGER-ZONE

^ Ohhh GOD ... Not Again

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## Jango

But the aircraft has PLAAF insignia on it's fuselage...shouldn't it be some other insignia??

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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> But the aircraft has PLAAF insignia on it's fuselage...shouldn't it be some other insignia??



Thats the point. 
For example, JF-17 PT-04/06.

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## Jango

danger-zone said:


> Thats the point.
> For example, JF-17 PT-04/06.



Exactly my point...!


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## fatman17

quote - Pakistan will start taking delivery of the Chinese J-10 fighter aircraft in 2014-15 - close quote

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## Jango

From Pshamim:



> In one pf my previous posts recently, I had stated that PAF had a change of heart and refused to go ahead with J-10 acquisition. Reason being that PAF is not interested in FC-20s if it is not available with the AL-31 engine. Only way, these FC-20 are crossing the border if they are equipped with the Russian engine. WS-10 is still not matured and reportedly under-powered. Pakistan considered raising issue with Putin who never turned up in Pakistan.
> 
> Some members still beleieve that FC-20s are still alive. I disagree unless FC-20s are equipped with AL-31 or untill WS-10 is ready to the satisfaction of PAF.





fatman17 said:


> quote - Pakistan will start taking delivery of the Chinese J-10 fighter aircraft in 2014-15 - close quote



If you got this confirmed, then keeping in mind the Pshamim post, it means that AL-31 is coming...or WS-10 is going to improve.


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## 帅的一匹

Maybe PAF has changed its mind about J10. Engine is no more than a problem within the next 1 or 2 years. WS10A is doing very well on J11b. Not to mention the WS10B installed on J20.


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## Donatello

So boys,

Is J-10 coming or not?


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## 帅的一匹

Probably not. Sad but realistic. Maybe PAF would like to go straightly for FC60.

Means a generation ahead.


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## Kompromat

wanglaokan said:


> Probably not. Sad but realistic. Maybe PAF would like to go straightly for FC60.
> 
> Means a generation ahead.



That make more sense, the induction PAKFA and Rafale has changed a quite of few things.


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## muse

Friends, Why does PAF have to match system for system? PAF wants to deter, wants to inject some sobriety of the cost involved in attacking Pakistan, it doe snot want to match system for system -- want a stronger PAF??, Then think economy, make that the priority, have patience and courage of conviction -Pakistan can do this, but only if that is what you want and insist that it do.

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## Kompromat

muse said:


> Friends, Why does PAF have to match system for system? PAF wants to deter, wants to inject some sobriety of the cost involved in attacking Pakistan, it doe snot want to match system for system -- want a stronger PAF??, Then think economy, make that the priority, have patience and courage of conviction -Pakistan can do this, but only if that is what you want and insist that it do.



Sir you do appreciate the technological gap don't you?


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## muse

Sir, It is because I appreciate the technology gap that I am advocating a priority on the economy -- What kind of an ally do you imagine we appear to be? wITH ALL THE POTENTIAL AVAILABLE IN Pakistan, ever ready with bowl in hand - with peoples desperate for a more dignified life?

Lets use this time available to us - no Indian is coming over the border, everything we on the forum want for a stronger, better Pakistan, can only be afforded through a robust integrated economy

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## Kompromat

muse said:


> Sir, It is because I appreciate the technology gap that I am advocating a priority on the economy -- What kind of an ally do you imagine we appear to be? wITH ALL THE POTENTIAL AVAILABLE IN Pakistan, ever ready with bowl in hand - with peoples desperate for a more dignified life?
> 
> Lets use this time available to us - no Indian is coming over the border, everything we on the forum want for a stronger, better Pakistan, can only be afforded through a robust integrated economy



Ameen to that.

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## Paan Singh

seems india lobbied hard


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## BATMAN

muse said:


> Sir, It is because I appreciate the technology gap that I am advocating a priority on the economy -- What kind of an ally do you imagine we appear to be? wITH ALL THE POTENTIAL AVAILABLE IN Pakistan, ever ready with bowl in hand - with peoples desperate for a more dignified life?
> 
> Lets use this time available to us - no Indian is coming over the border, everything we on the forum want for a stronger, better Pakistan, can only be afforded through a robust integrated economy



Yet, we failed to support the existing industry!
Basis of economy is industry, and defence sector is also an industry and US is an example.

You and me are in position to gauge the threat perception of hindus, but we shall be good enough to know their deception capabilities and hate for Pakistan and Muslims.

It is not the job of army to run economy, Mr. Jinnah proudly founded our army with a clear picture of hindu threat.
We cannot trust any other advice... while we already see Pakistan' sovereignty is being compromised by complicit, interior ministry, foreign office and politicians.

In other countries armies do not run the economies, and yet states do not like to compromise their defence.
Where as in Pakistan, army contribute most to the economy and have negligible support from political regimes.

IMO, Pakistan shall stop investing in civil administration, because people are doing all them selves and there is no criteria to gauge their performance.


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## Nishan_101

I am quite sure that PAF is not willing to buy J-10BS at all they are looking to wards at least 70 of the F-60 ones and may be it would be dual seat ones...


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## Bicho

So... we can say... J-10B no longer in plans for PAF?
My country needs replaced the Old Mirage III/V, and the option of J-10B seem to be good (at least for our transition), but the chinese engine... with WS-10 does not convince our FAA. 
Moreover, weapons... only a few, and china orgin (neither OTAN nor Russian).
It's the same thing buy a russian car made in siberia, and live in cuba. To much endogenous


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## Luftwaffe

Bicho said:


> My country needs replaced the Old Mirage III/V, and the option of J-10B seem to be good (at least for our transition)



J-10B might never be for sale to your country anytime sooner, it might end up or information on capabilities might end up in US, and the ones to do that would be israelis.


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## Bicho

maybe ... is the same reason for Venezuela and Iran?
I hope that the Chinese see the business that is lost in the hands of Russia, because NATO ceased to be our supplier (UK allies).


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## 帅的一匹

Why just China deliver a squadron of Fc20 for free to PAF, and these 430 pages of discussion really worth it.



Bicho said:


> maybe ... is the same reason for Venezuela and Iran?
> I hope that the Chinese see the business that is lost in the hands of Russia, because NATO ceased to be our supplier (UK allies).



Due to complex strategic consideration, it's not easy. Argentina air force show any interest in J10 yet?


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

With weak economy it would be really hard for PAF to buy new jets , even it will be very costly to maintain those costly birds......
what i think and believe at the moment that we should keep only 120 t0 140 jets , but they should be lethal one ... my vote would be for less but more advanced jets .... that is better option , in economic scenario that we are having ....

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## Bicho

wanglaokan said:


> Why just China deliver a squadron of Fc20 for free to PAF, and these 430 pages of discussion really worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> Due to complex strategic consideration, it's not easy. *Argentina air force show any interest in J10 yet?*



In the lower levels... but, our situation is complicated. The MoD wants, as stop gap, build Pampa II (advanced trainer) 
excuse my


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## 帅的一匹

Bicho said:


> In the lower levels... but, our situation is complicated. The MoD wants, as stop gap, build Pampa II (advanced trainer)
> excuse my


Argentina people are China's friend, hope he military tie will be reinforced in the future.



Bicho said:


> In the lower levels... but, our situation is complicated. The MoD wants, as stop gap, build Pampa II (advanced trainer)
> excuse my


Argentina people are China's friend, hope he military tie will be reinforced in the future.

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## batmannow

Fake excuses, after meeting been carried out by our dam defence minster with american, ammbasdor in islamabad in which again F16s were discussed?
Jst wana know when our economy was capable to hve dam F-16s ?
Poor economy is a stupid excuse allways Presented by the so called,political thugs rulling pakistan?
With billions & millions in their secret swiss personal acounts how could our armed forces will keep their heads down & for how long?
Still yet to be seen?
Without any proper statment from PAF regurding the cancellation of purchase of J-10bs , no one should think the other way around?
F-16s couldbe offered to us again with kickbacks bt it won't happen in real,its for sure! & will remain a dream!

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## 帅的一匹

If the FC20 project is gonna be implemented, must be J10b block 2 with WS10A engine. We will wait until 2014.


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## 帅的一匹

As the procurement of Rafale by IAF has been delayed due to spending cut, I don't see any necessarity rush for FC20 recently.


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## sancho

wanglaokan said:


> As the procurement of Rafale by IAF has been delayed due to spending cut, I don't see any necessarity rush for FC20 recently.



 Neither is there a spending cut that effects Rafale procurement, nor would a J10 procurement would have anything to do with it, since PAF would mainly try to improve it's own technical capabilities. However, that can be done with J10 or JF 17 future blocks, which makes the deal questionable as well. The longer it takes, the closer you get to JF 17 Block 3 and that again means, the lower the benefit from J10B for PAF. So if China wants to sell it, you better hurry finishing radar and engine developments according to PAFs needs.

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## batmannow

sancho said:


> Neither is there a spending cut that effects Rafale procurement, nor would a J10 procurement would have anything to do with it, since PAF would mainly try to improve it's own technical capabilities. However, that can be done with J10 or JF 17 future blocks, which makes the deal questionable as well. The longer it takes, the closer you get to JF 17 Block 3 and that again means, the lower the benefit from J10B for PAF. So if China wants to sell it, you better hurry finishing radar and engine developments according to PAFs needs.



JF-17 blk 3 & thn 4 & thn 5 & thn 6?
No thts what the problem is, if this theory goes in practical , no country devlop another aircraft?
JF-T have its own dynamics & can be improved to a certain level with a time frame?
J10s have their own class & use for godsake???

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## Glitcher

sancho said:


> Neither is there a spending cut that effects Rafale procurement, nor would a J10 procurement would have anything to do with it, since PAF would mainly try to improve it's own technical capabilities. However, that can be done with J10 or JF 17 future blocks, which makes the deal questionable as well. The longer it takes, the closer you get to JF 17 Block 3 and that again means, the lower the benefit from J10B for PAF. So if China wants to sell it, you better hurry finishing radar and engine developments according to PAFs needs.



Agreed  and hi to all iam new here


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## Glitcher

batmannow said:


> JF-17 blk 3 & thn 4 & thn 5 & thn 6?
> No thts what the problem is, if this theory goes in practical , no country devlop another aircraft?
> JF-T have its own dynamics & can be improved to a certain level with a time frame?
> J10s have their own class & use for godsake???



Sir it does not mean we will wait for j10's forever but we will have time to develop our own JFT's rather rushing towards J10's you can see it by this way is india had rafale earlier then we would have gone for J10A's but due to delays now we are going for J10b's correct me if i am wrong i am a new member and could learn a lot from you and others


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## sancho

batmannow said:


> JF-17 blk 3 & thn 4 & thn 5 & thn 6?



Block 3, just like Block 2 might offer any technical and load capability J10A offers. So when techs, most weapons and even the load capability will be similar, why would PAF pay more for a J10, instead of buying a JFT that you co-developed?
J10 does have some advantages, but nothing that couldn't be added to JFT either, be it IRST, AESA radar, a pod station, a refuelling pod (available in JFT Block2). Which makes the performance difference for PAF not that big, as a J11B for example would offer.

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## Gentelman

Glitcher said:


> Agreed  and hi to all iam new here



learn to thank to respect and to first introduce yourself in member Introduction section.....

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## Glitcher

sancho said:


> Block 3, just like Block 2 might offer any technical and load capability J10A offers. So when techs, most weapons and even the load capability will be similar, why would PAF pay more for a J10, instead of buying a JFT that you co-developed?
> J10 does have some advantages, but nothing that couldn't be added to JFT either, be it IRST, AESA radar, a pod station, a refuelling pod (available in JFT Block2). Which makes the performance difference for PAF not that big, as a J11B for example would offer.



Sir do you mean that PAF should not go for J10's ? and stay with JFT's only thats not enough and both are diffrent aircraft with diffrent air frame.s Etc


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## Storm Force

Rafale is 100% GURANTEED purchase. THE only issue when will the deal be signed ie by June 2013 or DEC 2013.

The TOT and pricing is all DONE. The only sticking POINT is the WORK SHARE of DASSULT & HAL & (RELIANCE industries) 

Dassult keen to OUTSOURCE more reliance THE INDIAN MOD want HAL to take the WORK ON. 

COMING BACK TO J10/ PURCHASE.

I agree to a certain extent with sancho .... YOU GUYS/PAF are about to spend 15 years & billions $$4 on JF17 which is your single seat CHINEASE ORIGIN fighter carrying CHINEASE weapons & chinease radars. 

WHY WOULD YOU THEN spend $billions more ON YET ANOTHER chinease fighter carrying the SAME RADAR AND SAME WEAPONS but on a slightly bigger airframe. 

" WOULD IT NOT MAKE SENSE TO SPEND THAT $$$$$ ON A WESTERN PLATFORM offering different weapons different radar. 

with JF17 & J10B you are duplicating radars EW suites & weaopons... 

THE PLAAF themselves will only INDUCT J10 and not JF17... 

YOU NEED TO ADD TOPLINE WESTERN TECHNOLOGY as well CHINEASE weapons.


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## araz

The problem is purely a financial one. Adding more JFT is a necessity which is agreed by all. Adding a later block with IRST,dual ejector racks and a refueling probe with the possibility of an AESA radar and 2 additional hardpoints(even for a pod) would suffice for PAFs needs for 6-8 yrs. As mentioned before the high ups in PAF feel there is security in numbers in the case of F16s and financially with the begging bowl out it wont break the bank either.
Post 2018-20 all the money that we have(or dont) can be utilized to buy J 31 with commonality between it and JFTwith regards to engine a d even some avuonics. Overall it would prove to be a much more effective package considering the adversary will have Rafale and pakfa. This I feel is what is the thought process within the PAF currently.You can argue with it but it does sound logical.
Araz

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## jupiter2007

With current economical situation in Pakistan, Pakistan is not going to be able to match India. Corrupted PPP government has cost Pakistan 91 billion in 5 years including millions that Gilani spend on shopping in UK. India has lots of $$$ to spend. Pakistan needs to keep working on Jf-17 project and keep working on Minimum deterrence strategy. 


Indian Air force Inventory and projects.

Sukhoi Su-30MKI - In Service= 172+
Mikoyan MiG-29 - In Service= 68
Dassault Mirage 2000 - In Service= 45
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - In Service= 153
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-27 Bahadur - In Service= 102
SEPECAT Jaguar - In Service= 151


HAL Tejas project cost 3 billon, 6 prototypes, 16 LSP aircraft build so far, 40 are on order, estimated cost of each aircraft is around 31million.

Indian Air Force Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), India selected 126 French Dassault Rafale multi-role combat aircraft,
estimated cost of planes and weapon system USD 20 billion. Contract will be signed in Decmber 2013.

Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) Proposed project: Program cost: 20 billion
- 1st flight 2020 
- 2nd flight 2022
- Inroduction 2025

Sukhoi/HAL FGFA Project, program cost 30 billion, unit cost $100 million
Induction 2022


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## muse

araz said:


> The *problem is purely a financial one*. As mentioned before the *high ups in PAF feel *there is security in numbers in the case of F16s and financially with the begging bowl out it wont break the bank either.
> *Post 2018-20 all the money that we have(or dont) can be utilized to buy J 31* with commonality between it and JFTwith regards to engine a d even some avuonics. Overall it would prove to be a much more effective package considering the adversary will have Rafale and pakfa. This I feel is what is the thought process within the PAF currently.You can argue with it but it does sound logical.
> Araz




Problem simply "financial" ? No, sir, the financial bit is symptom of the problem - Problem is no Economy. As predicted (foretold) more F16 and deeper in unkil's pocket - as far as j31 is concerned, is this going to be a mass produced fighter? or is it test bed? What do we know about it's avionics? it's performance? it's material? Next to nothing and yet we will put all our money into it? most unlikely.
So what we may have in the near future is a weapon system that we don't have control over and yet another weapon system about which we know next to nothing - in the case of the weapon system actually be used, we will find ourselves crying "betrayal" because when we most need them, the suppliers will be unable, even if they wanted to help, to assist us, when we most will need diplomatic support we will not be able to avail it ; but then PAF do not get paid to think.


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## Manticore

As many posters pointed out earlier, jf-17 should have been designed as a medium weight fighter to begin with [which raises the question of why paf not entered the j10 program] ,medium weight jf17 of which we could have made several blocks based on technological complexity -- or in my case, I raised some questions back in 2009 that we should have had invested in the j10 project --I had raised the questions as to why paf would be getting 3 different platforms [f16,jf17,j10] in the 4.5 gen category? What political/military decisions were questionable?The answer was having financial constraints and a defensive doctrine 

Now we still need to get an high end fighter, take into consideration our economy but also look at the realistic time frame of j31's production--- We cant afford to waste another decade by staying idle in hopes of getting a mature j31 platform but we cant use all our resources on 4.5 gen fighters either -- The question is time frame
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...e-invested-more-j-10s-rather-than-jf-17s.html

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## sancho

Glitcher said:


> Sir do you mean that PAF should not go for J10's ? and stay with JFT's only thats not enough and both are diffrent aircraft with diffrent air frame.s Etc



Just call me Sancho. Yes, at this point modernised versions of JF 17 looks preferable for PAF. Their airframes are indeed different and although the delta canard design looks tempting, but both have the same numbers of wetstations, the same number of wingstations, will have similar techs, will both offer IFR and the same weapons anyway.
So there is no big performance difference for PAF by adding J10B, while adding higher numbers of more cost-effective JF17s now might free budgets to add J31 in future, which would be a real game changer for PAF, something that J10 can't be anymore and not with such a limited upgrade.


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## sancho

ANTIBODY said:


> The answer was having financial constraints and a defensive doctrine



I asked this earlier as well and I still think the J10 would have offered PAF a better basline plattform, the answers I got from senior Pakistani members was, that China didn't offered a partnership in this project, only in JF17. That might have been a blow back then, but at this point, JF17 fullfils everything PAF wants from a baseline fighter, while the difference in performance is not that big anymore to invest in J10 now, especially with the prospect of NG fighters in future.
The doctrine can't be a reason btw, because you can operate even an F22 with a defensive doctrine, only for air defence reasons, so that has nothing to do with the selection of a fighter.


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## Manticore

sancho said:


> I asked this earlier as well and I still think the J10 would have offered PAF a better basline plattform, the answers I got from senior Pakistani members was, that China didn't offered a partnership in this project, only in JF17. That might have been a blow back then, but at this point, JF17 fullfils everything PAF wants from a baseline fighter, while the difference in performance is not that big anymore to invest in J10 now, especially with the prospect of NG fighters in future.
> The doctrine can't be a reason btw, because you can operate even an F22 with a defensive doctrine, only for air defence reasons, so that has nothing to do with the selection of a fighter.


sir xman
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...re-j-10s-rather-than-jf-17s-2.html#post275885

santro would you be kind enough post your thoughts on some of the long list of questions I had put forth in my first post of that thread -- particularly this aspect 

This was my first post on this forum and my questions were not very welcoming for some 



ANTIBODY said:


> *JF17 pros*
> 
> *already some of the systems put in j10 are in jf17 (so ivwe read) so, the subsequent batch inshallah if better might reach the complexity of j10... so *why then go for more j10s if [[gradually]] u'll end up upgrading jf7s to j10s (i.e f16 block52+)performance anyway.*
> 
> where does the jf-17 lack as compared to the j10 and how does this handicap affect paf? can the paf ''afford'' this handicap?why didnt we design a medium wt fighter? why didnt we not make a air superiority design delta/canards
> 
> 
> what will be the level till which we would ultimately upgrade jft before the 'cost effectiveness' diminishes and the cost of jft blk3 reaches close to j10
> 
> what will be handicaps even in jft blk3 due to structural size restictions and design properties?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *5th gen fighter*
> we should clearly define one chinese 5th gen. and only induct 20 aircrafts for long range bombing/airsuperiority/deterent/protection of our skies etc... of western origin rather than to wait for chinese 5th gen as there are no official chinese 5th gen fighters in the open to counter pakfa
> 
> 
> *Ideal LOW END to HIGH END ratio?*
> jft blk1: jft blk2 : f16 + j10 : chinese 5th gen
> . ...and i want to know about this by our veterans here ,to ellaborate on this fact

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## Manticore

> One may disagree with the assessment but PAF's reluctance for J-10B is very much due to the T-50 development for IAF. Pakistan will definitely go for J-31 bypassing J-10s if India proceeds to acquire PAK-FA (T-50). PAF has been thinking far ahead of many of us.
> 
> There are some other reasons behind the decision not to go for J-10 that I am unable to disclose. What I have heard does not make sense to me at all. China will provide the money for these acquisition on very soft loans. Even Chinese feel that it is in their interest to export J-31 than J-10s ( Dont ask me why?). Strange things going on in PAF and Chinese Governments but they both are on the same page.
> 
> Ukrainian engine and DRFM have both been on the agenda as I had heard and reported. Situation has been very fluid and nothing seems to materialize, Both China and Pakistan are reacting to situation in our neighborhood . Requirements are changing daily, hence the new thinking about J-10s. I have a feeling that JF-17 may get all the capabilities that J-10s has and make it the bulwark and then add J-31.
> 
> Do not know how they will achieve that but that seems to be the current thinking.


sir pshamim

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## Storm Force

PAF have made their bed with JF17 IMO.

has somebody said in a earlier POST there is not SUFFICIENT MONIES to buy 100+ FC20 and to acquire 3 blocks of SUCCESSIVE IMPROVED JF17. 

Something has to GIVE AND ultimately i think it will be the J10/FC20... 

I would be very surprised if PAF now buys this fighter. 

RATHER INSTEAD I THINK PAF

WILL answer the MKI threat with more 2nd hand F16s & the jft block 2 & 3 AND USE force multiplers to try and stay in a battle over their own air space.

PAF realise that ather than blow several $billion on FC20 they better just wait for J31 from CHINA ny 2020 TIMEFRAME. 

just to put PEOPLES MINDS as ease this is my BEST GUESS as IAF transformation threat to PAF 

SU30MKI around 165 today rising to 272 by 2018
Rafale F3 but not until 2015 AND TAKING UNTIL 2024 to deliver license build 126 PLANES
FGFA PAK FA will nor arrive in IAF until 2022 minimum

THE OTHER fighters mig29 smt mig29k mirage2000-5 & lca tejas mk1 the PAF can handle with JFT & F16s


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## Glitcher

well why not both of them we cant stay with only 1 type of air craft JFT's , J10b's , and 5th Gen J31 why cant be all of them


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## Storm Force

GLITCHER 

IN REPLY 



> well why not both of them we cant stay with only 1 type of air craft JFT's , J10b's , and 5th Gen J31 why cant be all of them
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca-432.html#ixzz2KznFsTxm



For the same reason you cant have AIRCRAFT CARRIERS , NUCLEAR SUBMARINES & TYPHOONS /RAFALES.

Because they cost $BILLIONS $$$$44 SOMETHING that pakistan as a severe hanidicap in ...

COMPROMISE is what PAF have conducted for 70 years by being SMART with limited resources. 

YOU ONLY HAVE limited FUNDS and THE THREAT is magnifying signifcantly from YOUR EAST

1. You go for FC20 IN 2015 -2019 AND ANSWER rafale threat cost you $5 billion 

OR 

2. you wait unti 2020 AND get the J31 stealth fighter for $7billion and answer both the RAFALE & FGFA threat at the same time. 

WHICH IS BETTER ????


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## Glitcher

Storm Force said:


> GLITCHER
> 
> IN REPLY
> 
> 
> 
> For the same reason you cant have AIRCRAFT CARRIERS , NUCLEAR SUBMARINES & TYPHOONS /RAFALES.
> 
> Because they cost $BILLIONS $$$$44 SOMETHING that pakistan as a severe hanidicap in ...
> 
> COMPROMISE is what PAF have conducted for 70 years by being SMART with limited resources.
> 
> YOU ONLY HAVE limited FUNDS and THE THREAT is magnifying signifcantly from YOUR EAST
> 
> 1. You go for FC20 IN 2015 -2019 AND ANSWER rafale threat cost you $5 billion
> 
> OR
> 
> 2. you wait unti 2020 AND get the J31 stealth fighter for $7billion and answer both the RAFALE & FGFA threat at the same time.
> 
> WHICH IS BETTER ????



Got it Sir Thanx


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## Najam Khan

Storm Force said:


> For the same reason you cant have AIRCRAFT CARRIERS , NUCLEAR SUBMARINES & TYPHOONS /RAFALES.
> 
> Because they cost $BILLIONS $$$$44 SOMETHING that pakistan as a severe hanidicap in ...
> 
> *COMPROMISE is what PAF have conducted for 70 years by being SMART with limited resources.
> 
> YOU ONLY HAVE limited FUNDS and THE THREAT is magnifying signifcantly from YOUR EAST*
> 
> WHICH IS BETTER ????



In simple words, Pakistan can never afford attition warfare (where as India can). Pakistan knows that it will never be be able to catch up with India's conventional weapons; therefore it puts its Nuclear and weapons program in the equation to balance out the odds. This discussion would take us way far from the topic, but that is how this whole equation is fairly balanced (which I'm sure you don't see ).

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## Storm Force

NAJAM.

The question is simply this .. 

SHOULD PAF buy THE fc20 and use significant FUNDS for this programme prehaps $4billion over 5-7 years beginning say 2015 running until 2022.

OR OR BETTER STIL in some eyes.

SAVE THE $4 BILLION 

ANS buy the J31 fifth gen fighter prehaps 5 years later say 2020 running until 2028 AND COSTING SAY $7 BILLION for 80+ fighters.

ITS A TOUGH CALL AND DEPENDS IMO on 

how good OR INDEED how bad is the JF17 can it hold the IAF of todat and next 5-7 years until 2020. ???

ARE THE F16S really vulnerable to sanctions OR can we sqeeze (paf) get another 18 or so block 52s) from USA . 

OR DO PAF HAVE NO OPTION thety have to get FC20


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## Gentelman

sancho said:


> I asked this earlier as well and I still think the J10 would have offered PAF a better basline plattform, the answers I got from senior Pakistani members was, that China didn't offered a partnership in this project, only in JF17. That might have been a blow back then, but at this point, JF17 fullfils everything PAF wants from a baseline fighter, while the difference in performance is not that big anymore to invest in J10 now, especially with the prospect of NG fighters in future.
> The doctrine can't be a reason btw, because you can operate even an F22 with a defensive doctrine, only for air defence reasons, so that has nothing to do with the selection of a fighter.



JF-17 was derived fron project Sabre....
moreover JF-17 is much cost effective...
just 20-25 mln$....
while J-10 price is much higher..
JF-17 is ment to replace F7,Mairages,A-5 etc..
while if J-10 was slected to replace all of them it would be very much expansive with a little advantage....
well all due to economic reasons...
and J-10 wasnot looking impressive till chinese got help fron Lavi project by israel...



Storm Force said:


> NAJAM.
> 
> The question is simply this ..
> 
> SHOULD PAF buy THE fc20 and use significant FUNDS for this programme prehaps $4billion over 5-7 years beginning say 2015 running until 2022.
> 
> OR OR BETTER STIL in some eyes.
> 
> SAVE THE $4 BILLION
> 
> ANS buy the J31 fifth gen fighter prehaps 5 years later say 2020 running until 2028 AND COSTING SAY $7 BILLION for 80+ fighters.
> 
> ITS A TOUGH CALL AND DEPENDS IMO on
> 
> how good OR INDEED how bad is the JF17 can it hold the IAF of todat and next 5-7 years until 2020. ???
> 
> ARE THE F16S really vulnerable to sanctions OR can we sqeeze (paf) get another 18 or so block 52s) from USA .
> 
> OR DO PAF HAVE NO OPTION thety have to get FC20



wts up man??
agreement for 36 J-10 was signed long ago for 2014-15....
wt about it??
it was also approved frm here...


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## ahussains

Hello every one after a very long time site is change too


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## araz

ANTIBODY said:


> As many posters pointed out earlier, jf-17 should have been designed as a medium weight fighter to begin with [which raises the question of why paf not entered the j10 program] ,medium weight jf17 of which we could have made several blocks based on technological complexity -- or in my case, I raised some questions back in 2009 that we should have had invested in the j10 project --I had raised the questions as to why paf would be getting 3 different platforms [f16,jf17,j10] in the 4.5 gen category? What political/military decisions were questionable?The answer was having financial constraints and a defensive doctrine
> 
> Now we still need to get an high end fighter, take into consideration our economy but also look at the realistic time frame of j31's production--- We cant afford to waste another decade by staying idle in hopes of getting a mature j31 platform but we cant use all our resources on 4.5 gen fighters either -- The question is time frame
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...e-invested-more-j-10s-rather-than-jf-17s.html


What PAF did was exactly what it should have done. You cant run before you have learnt to walk. J10 design is complex and as people can remember took a lot of time to evolve. PAF needed a easy to make and maintain low priced fighted jet which provides it a manageable fighter that it can learn and establish itsindustry on. J10 was the pride of Chinaand I am not sure thay would have wanted input from PAF.

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## zxmint

Totally agree with you, especially the former part of your words. Pakistan should develop its own fighter industry, just like what you did in the JF17 project. You can never build a truly strong defend force by purchasing weapons.That is what we Chinese learned in this two centuries. And it always take time to seize such a high end tech. SO just be patient.

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## Glitcher

zxmint said:


> Totally agree with you, especially the former part of your words. Pakistan should develop its own fighter industry, just like what you did in the JF17 project. You can never build a truly strong defend force by purchasing weapons.That is what we Chinese learned in this two centuries. And it always take time to seize such a high end tech. SO just be patient.



more over we are free of sanctions also


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## Manticore

old novi avion stealthy version project of the 90s

Some say that the concepts involved in fighter projects by Romania [iar9x]and Jugoslavija [novi avion] were actually realised and polished in china, in the form of jf-17 & j10

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## Manticore

Early artist concept of the J-10 with a round inlet like the F-16

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## Luftwaffe

Isn't the Project Novi Avion dead in mid 90's.


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## Gentelman

@ANTIBODY so what is final news about J-10 induction??
i heard deal was signed and induction will start in 2014-15..
what's final about PAF and J-10s and was deal signed or it was a rumor which was badely spread around?


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## Manticore

Gentelman said:


> @ANTIBODY so what is final news about J-10 induction??
> i heard deal was signed and induction will start in 2014-15..
> what's final about PAF and J-10s and was deal signed or it was a rumor which was badely spread around?








hoping against hope with no idea of whats gonna happen - getting conflicting insider news and nothing good has come of the current government anyway

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## INDIAISM

Gentelman said:


> @ANTIBODY so what is final news about J-10 induction??
> i heard deal was signed and induction will start in 2014-15..
> what's final about PAF and J-10s and was deal signed or it was a rumor which was badely spread around?


Mate the first thing any country need to buy defence equipment is cash and that what Pakistan is short off....Kher forget about Pakistan i think at present every country except Arab countries,Australia,Maybe Canada and China are short off cash...So just be happy of what you are getting in present economic mess kahi Mutton Korma ke Chakkar mein jo Dum Aloo abhi mil rhe wo bhi na choot jaye...


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## Gentelman

INDIAISM said:


> Mate the first thing any country need to buy defence equipment is cash and that what Pakistan is short off....Kher forget about Pakistan i think at present every country except Arab countries,Australia,Maybe Canada and China are short off cash...So just be happy of what you are getting in present economic mess kahi Mutton Korma ke Chakkar mein jo Dum Aloo abhi mil rhe wo bhi na choot jaye...



well here maybe i suppose induction would start with a delay around 2017-2018...
maybe PAF is not satisfied with J-10B yet...
it has engine problems....
money is not problem we will get soft loans from Em.....


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## bilawalkhan

does China have any program to counter F-22 raptor or SU-30-MKI, reason for the question is "Pakistan's capability in the future "


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## GURU DUTT

bilawalkhan said:


> does China have any program to counter F-22 raptor or SU-30-MKI, reason for the question is "Pakistan's capability in the future "



Two things 

1. F22 is not going to Fight the MKI , Rafale combo but JF17 & F 16 combo & PAF is not Getting The J10's any time soon + dont live in dream that CHINA will Fight For Pakistan with INDIA all it will do is give you a couple of Squad's of J10's 


2. forget the chinese stealth as they will not give you that niether will they Fight for Pakistan nor will they allow PAF to USE there airspace case if they do all anty China forces will help India and chinese are quite smart unlike the PA & PAF generals


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## EagleEyes

bilawalkhan said:


> does China have any program to counter F-22 raptor or SU-30-MKI, reason for the question is "Pakistan's capability in the future "



PAF will eventually get the Chinese stealth fighter jet comparable to F-35. But that is far away. Pakistan is still looking to get another platform, it is not sold on the J-10 yet.

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## Viper0011.

GURU DUTT said:


> Two things
> 
> 1. F22 is not going to Fight the MKI , Rafale combo but JF17 & F 16 combo & PAF is not Getting The J10's any time soon + dont live in dream that CHINA will Fight For Pakistan with INDIA all it will do is give you a couple of Squad's of J10's
> 
> 
> 2. forget the chinese stealth as they will not give you that niether will they Fight for Pakistan nor will they allow PAF to USE there airspace case if they do all anty China forces will help India and chinese are quite smart unlike the PA & PAF generals



Interesting observations:
1) China won't fight the war for Pakistan. Pakistan is a nuclear state so I don't think even India would want to fight it. Just that simple. Also, Chinese call Pakistan their 'Israel'...it's been said many times. So, even if they don't fight the war for them, they'll make sure India won't win or will get crippled in the process. That's their strategic focus and interest. A weaker India through a war with Pakistan and a crippled Indian economy due to a war serves them the best. Which is what will happen. So I suggest that everyone keep their F-16's and SU-30's in their homeland and enjoy the view and the flight. 

2) The Chinese have already been working with the Pakistanis on a stealthier jet and Pakistan will have it. You can bet all of your money on it and you'll lose. It may not be J-20 or the top end, it may be a smaller version (single engined) like mini or lower end JSF. Stealth is stealth so even the mid tier ones would do the job. There is no one to one in the case of India and Pakistan. The goal is "credible deterrence" as I've heard this from the Pakistanis many times. So even a mid tier stealthy jet would work. You can't shoot at what you can't see....goes both ways!

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## GURU DUTT

orangzaib said:


> Interesting observations:
> 1) China won't fight the war for Pakistan. Pakistan is a nuclear state so I don't think even India would want to fight it. Just that simple. Also, Chinese call Pakistan their 'Israel'...it's been said many times. So, even if they don't fight the war for them, they'll make sure India won't win or will get crippled in the process. That's their strategic focus and interest. A weaker India through a war with Pakistan and a crippled Indian economy due to a war serves them the best. Which is what will happen. So I suggest that everyone keep their F-16's and SU-30's in their homeland and enjoy the view and the flight.
> 
> 2) The Chinese have already been working with the Pakistanis on a stealthier jet and Pakistan will have it. You can bet all of your money on it and you'll lose. It may not be J-20 or the top end, it may be a smaller version (single engined) like mini or lower end JSF. Stealth is stealth so even the mid tier ones would do the job. There is no one to one in the case of India and Pakistan. The goal is "credible deterrence" as I've heard this from the Pakistanis many times. So even a mid tier stealthy jet would work. You can't shoot at what you can't see....goes both ways!



well if wishes were horses fools would fly ...ok now 

1.Chinese will onli help giving you there surplus hardware but even if they do what do you think Japan, Korea ,NATO & US will do? anyway we Indians dont have to beg or rely on other "Friendly" nations for help as we have ample hardware to keep both China and Pakistan at bay other wise as the history tells as soon as Pakistan has a formidable wepon they go to war with India like 1965 when they had Sabre's & Patton Tanks against much inferior Gnats & centurian Tanks of India why do you think they are in there limits????? ...let me guess WOT lolzzz no sir cause both of them know what awaits them if ever they try to get advantorous + in case china supplies you to cripple India we always have Israel , US & Japan to get the best supplies

2. well as we speak so is India working on its version of Stealthy UCAV, AMCA & russian FGFA & French Rafale not to mention the formidable MKI's soon which will have ASEA & Bhramos so hardli matters + we are also working on makin the current LCA's more stealthy in its third version as my sources tell even we will have a stealthy LCA as soon as the chinese stealthy JF17 comes 

Ps ..please escuse my spelling mistakes

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## MZUBAIR

GURU DUTT said:


> well if wishes were horses fools would fly ...ok now
> 
> 1.Chinese will onli help giving you there surplus hardware but even if they do what do you think Japan, Korea ,NATO & US will do? anyway we Indians dont have to beg or rely on other "Friendly" nations for help as we have ample hardware to keep both China and Pakistan at bay other wise as the history tells as soon as Pakistan has a formidable wepon they go to war with India like 1965 when they had Sabre's & Patton Tanks against much inferior Gnats & centurian Tanks of India why do you think they are in there limits????? ...let me guess WOT lolzzz no sir cause both of them know what awaits them if ever they try to get advantorous + in case china supplies you to cripple India we always have Israel , US & Japan to get the best supplies
> 
> 2. well as we speak so is India working on its version of Stealthy UCAV, AMCA & russian FGFA & French Rafale not to mention the formidable MKI's soon which will have ASEA & Bhramos so hardli matters + we are also working on makin the current LCA's more stealthy in its third version as my sources tell even we will have a stealthy LCA as soon as the chinese stealthy JF17 comes
> 
> Ps ..please escuse my spelling mistakes



Your spell mistakes show your nerves were out 

On the topics.

1) India has at the moment fleet of approx. ~250 front row Aircrafts includes Mig 29, Mirages & MKI's to counter and keep the balance in the region against all its threatening neighbors particularly China & Pakistan, and if you count the fleet of the both Air Forces you will come to know that their number will be double in quality and quantity then Indian Air Force. 
More over that the strategically ties between Pakistan and China are not the same as they were before, they are more strengthen than ever before. May be u remember voice of Iran and China after Mumbai Attacks when India was thinking for surgical attacks. 
Suppose I agree that there is no countries have ties with Pakistan and even Pakistan don&#8217;t have a single aircraft against mighty Indian Air Force or no country including China ready to support them, even then India would have to think 100 times to engage with Pakistan till Pakistan have Nuclear Assets. Even a single Nuclear Ballistic Missile is superior then 1000's of MKI's. Because Nukes don&#8217;t see the soil & people it will only convert everything in ASH.

2) I think your point is not useful, as now days the war strategies have been changed. Stealth Technology is getting common now. Don&#8217;t forget Pakistan also have stealth Missiles in their arsenals.

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## ANPP

MZUBAIR said:


> Your spell mistakes show your nerves were out
> 
> On the topics.
> 
> 1) India has at the moment fleet of approx. ~250 front row Aircrafts includes Mig 29, Mirages & MKI's to counter and keep the balance in the region against all its threatening neighbors particularly China & Pakistan, and if you count the fleet of the both Air Forces you will come to know that their number will be double in quality and quantity then Indian Air Force.
> More over that the strategically ties between Pakistan and China are not the same as they were before, they are more strengthen than ever before. May be u remember voice of Iran and China after Mumbai Attacks when India was thinking for surgical attacks.
> Suppose I agree that there is no countries have ties with Pakistan and even Pakistan dont have a single aircraft against mighty Indian Air Force or no country including China ready to support them, even then India would have to think 100 times to engage with Pakistan till Pakistan have Nuclear Assets. Even a single Nuclear Ballistic Missile is superior then 1000's of MKI's. Because Nukes dont see the soil & people it will only convert everything in ASH.
> 
> 2) I think your point is not useful, as now days the war strategies have been changed. Stealth Technology is getting common now. Dont forget Pakistan also have stealth Missiles in their arsenals.



If you are seeing geo-political view of war, than put it completely, dont admire only one part of coin.

Talking on stealth, there is no any thing of stealth in your cruise missile, it has low signature because it is smaller compare to fighter. On the other hand we have much better stealth tech compare to you.


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## ANPP

ANTIBODY said:


> Early artist concept of the J-10 with a round inlet like the F-16



It could be possible because USA was giving consultancy to Chaina in 90's for its new fighter.


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## Anony

MZUBAIR said:


> Your spell mistakes show your nerves were out
> 
> On the topics.
> 
> 1) India has at the moment fleet of approx. ~250 front row Aircrafts includes Mig 29, Mirages & MKI's to counter and keep the balance in the region against all its threatening neighbors particularly China & Pakistan, and if you count the fleet of the both Air Forces you will come to know that their number will be double in quality and quantity then Indian Air Force.
> More over that the strategically ties between Pakistan and China are not the same as they were before, they are more strengthen than ever before. May be u remember voice of Iran and China after Mumbai Attacks when India was thinking for surgical attacks.
> Suppose I agree that there is no countries have ties with Pakistan and even Pakistan dont have a single aircraft against mighty Indian Air Force or no country including China ready to support them, even then India would have to think 100 times to engage with Pakistan till Pakistan have Nuclear Assets. Even a single Nuclear Ballistic Missile is superior then 1000's of MKI's. Because Nukes dont see the soil & people it will only convert everything in ASH.
> 
> 2) I think your point is not useful, as now days the war strategies have been changed. Stealth Technology is getting common now. Dont forget Pakistan also have stealth Missiles in their arsenals.



Firstly, your 25kt yield nuclear weapon don't stand anywhere close to India's 200kt yield nuclear weapon.

Secondly, how you came across the 250 number. India has 156 Su 30mki, 68 Mig 29,55 Mirage 2000, 80 Mig 27, 149 Jaguar which make the total to 508 fighters. Then we also have 152 Mig 21 of which 102 odds are of Mig 21 bison standard. 

Thirdly, your country is less than one-fifth the size of India. Fewer nuclear weapons are required to wipe out the entire country.

Fourth, India has ABM capability. Atleast we can destroy more half your nuclear tipped missile in mid air. But your country will have to consume all the nuclear missiles of India in its heart.

India has ground based radars which can monitor what's going on close to 800 km range. Thus radar placed 150km inside India's border can track all the activities happening even in the extreme western corner of Pakistan but Pakistan don't have radar which can even track 250km.


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## abdulbarijan

Anony said:


> Firstly, your 25kt yield nuclear weapon don't stand anywhere close to India's 200kt yield nuclear weapon.



*How many 200 KT weapons has India tested* since you are taking the tested Pakistani device that produced 25 KT, infact the figure you pulled out was the official response to the scientists of India that alleged that the test in 98 was a failure 

Nukes of 200kt yield possible: Architect of Pokhran-II - Times Of India




> Secondly, how you came across the 250 number. India has 156 Su 30mki, 68 Mig 29,55 Mirage 2000, 80 Mig 27, 149 Jaguar which make the total to 508 fighters. Then we also have 152 Mig 21 of which 102 odds are of Mig 21 bison standard.


Secondly Muzbair said "front row aircrafts" by which i assume he means *"front line aircrafts"* he is indeed true at that -- take your own figures it makes a *total of 279 MKI's/M2k's and mig-29's* --- assuming what u said is the actual current state of the IAF w.r.t numbers---



> Thirdly, your country is less than one-fifth the size of India. Fewer nuclear weapons are required to wipe out the entire country.


Flip side of the coin --- India by a rule of thumb would needs *many times the assets* to protect a larger land having two nuclear states to deal with --- and the famous " string of pearls" which is now a common discussion on the indian media ---




> Fourth, India has ABM capability. Atleast we can destroy more half your nuclear tipped missile in mid air. But your country will have to consume all the nuclear missiles of India in its heart.



Oh wow --- so the ABM is sooo effective that it'll take half of the ballistic missiles traveling at extreme hypersonic speeds --- and terrain hugging and stealthy cruise missiles --- just add MIRV to the equation ---- and the fact that we wont tell u --
*
" dude we'll drop this missiles at this area at this particular time ---- so watch out"*

War is a different ball game altogether--- Just look at what happened to one of the most effective *operational systems of israel THE IRON DOME* against simple rockets ---

PressTV - Israel's Iron Dome system fails to stop Palestinian rockets: Israeli report 



> India has ground based radars which can monitor what's going on close to 800 km range. Thus radar placed 150km inside India's border can track all the activities happening even in the extreme western corner of Pakistan but Pakistan don't have radar which can even track 250km.



Ever heard about* Vera systems* that Pakistan operates?

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## INDIAISM

MZUBAIR said:


> Your spell mistakes show your nerves were out
> 
> On the topics.
> 
> 1) India has at the moment fleet of approx. ~250 front row Aircrafts includes Mig 29, Mirages & MKI's to counter and keep the balance in the region against all its threatening neighbors particularly China & Pakistan, and if you count the fleet of the both Air Forces you will come to know that their number will be double in quality and quantity then Indian Air Force.
> More over that the strategically ties between Pakistan and China are not the same as they were before, they are more strengthen than ever before. May be u remember voice of Iran and China after Mumbai Attacks when India was thinking for surgical attacks.
> Suppose I agree that there is no countries have ties with Pakistan and even Pakistan don&#8217;t have a single aircraft against mighty Indian Air Force or no country including China ready to support them, even then India would have to think 100 times to engage with Pakistan till Pakistan have Nuclear Assets. Even a single Nuclear Ballistic Missile is superior then 1000's of MKI's.* Because Nukes don&#8217;t see the soil & people it will only convert everything in ASH.*
> 
> 2) I think your point is not useful, as now days the war strategies have been changed. Stealth Technology is getting common now. Don&#8217;t forget Pakistan also have stealth Missiles in their arsenals.


Bhai tunne to mujhe deewar movie ki yaad dila di....

*Indian to Pakistani*- Mere paas achi economy hai,Dam hai,Reliance hai,Tata hai,Infosys hai,Wipro hai,Aircraft carrier hai,Destroyer hai,Sukhoi hai,Rafale hai,FGFA hai,AMCA hai....

*Pakistani*-Mere Paas Nukes hai....

*
Its seems Nukes is the only achievement since independence for which Pakistani's are proud about.... *...

And yes i agree with you Nukes don't Soil,People,Water or Air.....The thing it know is to turn every thing into ashes...

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## genmirajborgza786

sometime ago we saw the j-10b version for the PAF 

http://cache.mars.sina.com.cn/nd/cl...20090808_f781c3e38df08257a350l3ZE5959yy9v.jpg 

which means that a platform is already in place its only the induction which is being delayed, maybe a combination of both funds issues & the platform going for furtherer evaluation/improvement purpose @ present


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## genmirajborgza786

Anony said:


> Firstly, your *25kt yield nuclear weapon *don't stand anywhere close to India's 200kt yield nuclear weapon.
> 
> Secondly, how you came across the 250 number. India has 156 Su 30mki, 68 Mig 29,55 Mirage 2000, 80 Mig 27, 149 Jaguar which make the total to 508 fighters. Then we also have 152 Mig 21 of which 102 odds are of Mig 21 bison standard.
> 
> *Thirdly, your country is less than one-fifth the size of India*. Fewer nuclear weapons are required to wipe out the entire country.
> 
> Fourth, India has ABM capability. Atleast we can destroy more half your nuclear tipped missile in mid air. But your country will have to consume all the nuclear missiles of India in its heart.
> 
> India has ground based radars which can monitor what's going on close to 800 km range. Thus radar placed 150km inside India's border can track all the activities happening even in the extreme western corner of Pakistan but Pakistan don't have radar which can even track 250km.



& how can you be so sure that Pakistan doesn't possess warheads of more then 25kt ? 
& secondly India is not 5 times the size of Pakistan in fact it only 3.6 times the size, here India plus Indian control part of Kashmir combined is 1,240,000 sq mi Pakistan plus Pakistan control part of Kashmir is 338,200 sq mi now divide 1,240,000 sq mi/338,200 sq mi & you get 3.6

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## nitetrogen70

i get the feeling paf is just waiting till the j10b gets some further upgrades, specifically after the future introduction of 5th gen jets


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## Viper0011.

GURU DUTT said:


> well if wishes were horses fools would fly ...ok now
> 
> 1.Chinese will onli help giving you there surplus hardware but even if they do what do you think Japan, Korea ,NATO & US will do? anyway we Indians dont have to beg or rely on other "Friendly" nations for help as we have ample hardware to keep both China and Pakistan at bay
> 
> 2. well as we speak so is India working on its version of Stealthy UCAV, AMCA & russian FGFA & French Rafale not to mention the formidable MKI's soon which will have ASEA & Bhramos so hardli matters + we are also working on makin the current LCA's more stealthy in its third version as my sources tell even we will have a stealthy LCA as soon as the chinese stealthy JF17 comes



I don't think my post in any shape or form mentioned India being superior. I was talking about what will happen in the case of a war. No one's a fool here. I know more strategy than what you can read in books.
Yes, India's working on acquiring and building a huge weapons list. I don't think there is any dispute. But here is my question and if you can't be fair to the situation, don't answer it and waste time. The question is, with everything you guys are buying and building......do you think that in a conflict, you'll just destroy everything that Pakistan has on the ground without ever getting stuff fired? If things get fired off, your economy will suffer. THAT was my point. Hope you are catching my drift

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## GURU DUTT

orangzaib said:


> I don't think my post in any shape or form mentioned India being superior. I was talking about what will happen in the case of a war. No one's a fool here. I know more strategy than what you can read in books.
> Yes, India's working on acquiring and building a huge weapons list. I don't think there is any dispute. But here is my question and if you can't be fair to the situation, don't answer it and waste time. The question is, with everything you guys are buying and building......do you think that in a conflict, you'll just destroy everything that Pakistan has on the ground without ever getting stuff fired? If things get fired off, your economy will suffer. THAT was my point. Hope you are catching my drift



well sir with all deu respects to you i know a thing or two about so called strategi or such as you define it but your right that we will get some scars aswell but way much much less than ordinarry pakistanies love to beleve we are prepared and prepairing for it for a long long time + your so called strategikk assets have given us some very usefull lessons how to secure owerself in all the deptt. but can the same be said about the land of the pure well sir as of now we are quite comfortabli placed and all the indicators are that the things will get better in future aswell as a genetik trait we indian try to find holes in owr own armour and keep pointing it till they get sealed but yours is a totally diff way of loking at things and as the history tells your elite & genrals havent learned any lessons and same goes for the common pakistani 

any way the thread was about J10 aircraft which despite many trys you are not getting them any time soon where as in a couple of years we will have the rafale's trickling in owr IAF and there is nothing you can do about that + some very very potent BVR's , ACML's , and other stuff which will make owr defences way more potent for you to even think of bieng adventurous unless your nation as a whole had decided to committ seucide


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## MZUBAIR

ANPP said:


> If you are seeing geo-political view of war, than put it completely, dont admire only one part of coin.
> 
> Talking on stealth, there is no any thing of stealth in your cruise missile, it has low signature because it is smaller compare to fighter. On the other hand we have much better stealth tech compare to you.



Stealth always means low signature or less capable to detect, Missiles , JETs etc become stealth coz of low deduction capabilities through design,coating, or frame.

Pakistan have Babar and Cruise missiles which have Stealth capabilities.
Your currently developed Brahmos - I is not stealth, where as Brahmos-II [Stealth version) under development.

Its always Good to have updated knowledge


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## MZUBAIR

Anony said:


> Firstly, your 25kt yield nuclear weapon don't stand anywhere close to India's 200kt yield nuclear weapon.
> 
> Secondly, how you came across the 250 number. India has 156 Su 30mki, 68 Mig 29,55 Mirage 2000, 80 Mig 27, 149 Jaguar which make the total to 508 fighters. Then we also have 152 Mig 21 of which 102 odds are of Mig 21 bison standard.
> 
> Thirdly, your country is less than one-fifth the size of India. Fewer nuclear weapons are required to wipe out the entire country.
> 
> Fourth, India has ABM capability. Atleast we can destroy more half your nuclear tipped missile in mid air. But your country will have to consume all the nuclear missiles of India in its heart.
> 
> India has ground based radars which can monitor what's going on close to 800 km range. Thus radar placed 150km inside India's border can track all the activities happening even in the extreme western corner of Pakistan but Pakistan don't have radar which can even track 250km.



India has only 250 Aircrafts[mig, su30, mirage] capable to fight on front wars, other even cant come close to borders coz of air defence systems. Remeber ur few aircrafts gone down in Kargil war, not only that in 2008 after mumbai attacks ur Su30 was deducted before reaching to border and evated by F-16 Block 15 .....
so every thing replied to ur baseless comments.


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## Luftwaffe

ANPP said:


> At the last what matter is giving least reaction time to enemy for counter defense, where Brahmose surely ahead of Babar. Thats why there is a development in stealth/speed/agility in all round the world.



Unless SAMs down each and every BaburCM, Babur would effectively penetrate in most cases and cause wider significant damage. 

Next brahmos being used in any scenario would have A counter retaliation, be prepared.


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## Luftwaffe

ANPP said:


> twice of your statements are creating contradiction themself. So either iterate it or dont post any thing like this vice-chairmen ji.



You can open and Thread we shall discuss there this is J-10/FC-20 Thread. 

There is no contradiction; SAMs cannot bring down each and every CM no 100% When you Fire at you capable enemy, you should expect something in return. 

In simpler terms since some of you hindustanis have a problem with understanding.


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## bigzgvr4

@ANPP


bigzgvr4 said:


> Explain WHat that Paf Replacing Mirages with J-10 and F-7 with FC-1/JFT and Developing a Long range Stealth Bomber which can Carry Multiple CM400/Raads For its Anti Carrier and Nuclear Role and Getting Into a Single Engine Stealth Fighter to Counter Fgfa, what do you want Paf to Do Cook VEG BIRYANI with the MONEY THEY GET to Invest in Projects no matter How little they get


tell me what is wrong with Paf replacing j-10 with mirages and f-7 with Fc-1 and developing Stealth Fighter jet with single engine to replace the F-16 and Developing Long range Jet stealth bomber for anti carrier and Nuclear role with Multiple Raads and CM400 in the Bombing Bay


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## ANPP

bigzgvr4 said:


> @ANPP
> 
> tell me what is wrong with Paf replacing j-10 with mirages and f-7 with Fc-1 and developing Stealth Fighter jet with single engine to replace the F-16 and Developing Long range Jet stealth bomber for anti carrier and Nuclear role with Multiple Raads and CM400 in the Bombing Bay



Just tell me where you read about stealth bomber & stealth fighter JV with China.
Remaining is good.


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## bigzgvr4

ANPP said:


> Just tell me where you read about stealth bomber & stealth fighter JV with China.
> Remaining is good.


UMM If you Read I Said THEY SHOULD


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## Anony

genmirajborgza786 said:


> & how can you be so sure that Pakistan doesn't possess warheads of more then 25kt ?



India raises nuclear stakes - FT.com

above link is india's weapon yield proof.

I searched and I get this figure for Pakistan's nukes yield. It may vary. You are free to provide source for more yield. I am ready to acknowledge that.


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## bigzgvr4

Anony said:


> India raises nuclear stakes - FT.com
> 
> above link is india's weapon yield proof.
> 
> I searched and I get this figure for Pakistan's nukes yield. It may vary. You are free to provide source for more yield. I am ready to acknowledge that.



Can not REad the Article 
I Know Pakistan NUCKS are Plotonium Bassed and 25kt of Plotonium Nuke is like a 300kt yeild Worth of Uranium Based Nuke 
and Uranium based Nuke most of the time does not Produce or in laymen terms dont blow up because of the radiation index in them is small compared to plotonium in terms of producing atomic reaction 
is that a 200KT of Plotonium Based that india is using 

thankx in advance


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## Anony

abdulbarijan said:


> *How many 200 KT weapons has India tested* since you are taking the tested Pakistani device that produced 25 KT, infact the figure you pulled out was the official response to the scientists of India that alleged that the test in 98 was a failure
> 
> Nukes of 200kt yield possible: Architect of Pokhran-II - Times Of India
> 
> 
> 
> Secondly Muzbair said "front row aircrafts" by which i assume he means *"front line aircrafts"* he is indeed true at that -- take your own figures it makes a *total of 279 MKI's/M2k's and mig-29's* --- assuming what u said is the actual current state of the IAF w.r.t numbers---
> 
> 
> Flip side of the coin --- India by a rule of thumb would needs *many times the assets* to protect a larger land having two nuclear states to deal with --- and the famous " string of pearls" which is now a common discussion on the indian media ---
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh wow --- so the ABM is sooo effective that it'll take half of the ballistic missiles traveling at extreme hypersonic speeds --- and terrain hugging and stealthy cruise missiles --- just add MIRV to the equation ---- and the fact that we wont tell u --
> *
> " dude we'll drop this missiles at this area at this particular time ---- so watch out"*
> 
> War is a different ball game altogether--- Just look at what happened to one of the most effective *operational systems of israel THE IRON DOME* against simple rockets ---
> 
> PressTV - Israel's Iron Dome system fails to stop Palestinian rockets: Israeli report
> 
> 
> 
> Ever heard about* Vera systems* that Pakistan operates?



India raises nuclear stakes - FT.com

I have provided official link. Now what you want more. As far as Pakistan's yield is considered this is what I found. You provide with better figure if you have.
*
IAF's fighters* - What do you mean by only SU 30mki, Mig 29 and Mirage is fit for service. Jaguar and Mig 27 are very potent fighter. As far as anti-aircraft means are considered each of India's fighters are loaded with EW suite of latest standard excluding Mig 21 which mostly depends on the escorting fighters avionics and that's why it is used for point defence role.

And if the same thing is considered PAF has only 18 F-16 fighter which can enter Indian territory.So don't talk childish.

*Rule of Thumb* - If India's size is bigger and it need more fighter to protect, Pakistan is almost one-fourth of India and it will get destroyed by few of India's front line fighters. And even new countable nukes on hand to get wipe out. Don't bring irrational logic.



bigzgvr4 said:


> Can not REad the Article
> I Know Pakistan NUCKS are Plotonium Bassed and 25kt of Plotonium Nuke is like a 300kt yeild Worth of Uranium Based Nuke
> and Uranium based Nuke most of the time does not Produce or in laymen terms dont blow up because of the radiation index in them is small compared to plotonium in terms of producing atomic reaction
> is that a 200KT of Plotonium Based that india is using
> 
> thankx in advance



*How shitty your knowledge is.* Yield is calculated on the radiation and the temperature it produces and how much area it can destroy completely is calculated.

And who told you Uranium don't blow up means......


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## bigzgvr4

Eaxactly what i was saying that plotonium based nuke Yeild compared to Uranium bassed nuke yeild is due to the radiation Index of the plotonium and Uranium If pakistan uses Uranium to make 25kt then the plotonium based Nuke will be equal to a single digit Kt

so My question again Does india Use Plotonium or Uranium 
Because you uses Yellow cake to make Plotonium and Uranium first uranium then Plotonium Because High Radiation INdex is Desired 
and Uranium is not Stable and most of the time does not yeild any atomic reaction 
So in laymen terms does not blow UP


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## bigzgvr4

which aircraft is this can some one translate the writings


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## graphican

bigzgvr4 said:


> which aircraft is this can some one translate the writings



Writing says FC-1 but and from the top-view, it looks like some derivative of it. Also look at number of hard-points which are the same as FC-1! Interesting!


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## Bratva

graphican said:


> Writing says FC-1 but and from the top-view, it looks like some derivative of it. Also look at number of hard-points which are the same as FC-1! Interesting!



Idea of making FC-1 evolved up to such level describred in drawings were resulted in J-31.


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## abdulbarijan

Anony said:


> India raises nuclear stakes - FT.com
> 
> I have provided official link. Now what you want more. As far as Pakistan's yield is considered this is what I found. You provide with better figure if you have.



BBC NEWS | South Asia | India nuclear test 'did not work'



> By Sanjoy Majumder
> BBC News, Delhi
> 
> In a file photo from 1974, a crater is shown in the Thar desert area southwest of New Delhi where India conducted an underground nuclear test. India successfully tested three devices in the same area on Monday May 11,1998. (AP Photo/HO)
> India's nuclear tests shocked the world
> 
> A retired atomic scientist who was closely associated with India's 1998 nuclear tests has said they were not as successful as was claimed.
> 
> K Santhanam said one of the tests - on a hydrogen bomb - had not worked, and that India would have to carry out more tests for a credible nuclear deterrent.
> 
> His statement has been dismissed by the government and his former colleagues.
> 
> The Indian tests led to similar tests by Pakistan, raising fears of a nuclear conflict between the two countries.
> 
> Cover-up?
> 
> *K Santhanam* is a respected Indian atomic scientist who was* project director of the 1998 nuclear tests.*
> 
> He now says that one of the five tests that were carried out, in which a thermonuclear device or hydrogen bomb was detonated,* did not perform as well as expected.*
> 
> He also said that everyone associated with the tests *immediately recognized that something had gone wrong.*
> 
> If his statement is accurate it points to a *massive cover-up by India and also confirms what many in the West suspected at the time - that the nuclear devices India tested were not as powerful as had been thought. *



I rest my case on this point

*



IAF's fighters

Click to expand...

*


> - What do you mean by only SU 30mki, Mig 29 and Mirage is fit for service. Jaguar and Mig 27 are very potent fighter. As far as anti-aircraft means are considered each of India's fighters are loaded with EW suite of latest standard excluding Mig 21 which mostly depends on the escorting fighters avionics and that's why it is used for point defence role.
> 
> And if the same thing is considered PAF has only 18 F-16 fighter which can enter Indian territory.So don't talk childish.



There is a difference between front line aircrafts and the likes of jaguars or Mig-21's which serve as strike fighters and interceptors ---- IAF's front line aircrafts are the M2k's, Mig-29's and SU-30 MKI's 

on the other hand PAF has 50 odd JF-17's 45 F-16 A/B's and 18 F-16 Block 50/52's serving as front line aircrafts -- F-7 P/PG basically serve as interceptors while Mirages basically are dedicated towards strike role. 

That makes IAF 270 odd front liners versus PAF's 110 odd front line aircrafts a ratio of 1 : 2.45 amongst the lowest in history when it comes to numerical figures ----




> *Rule of Thumb* - If India's size is bigger and it need more fighter to protect, Pakistan is almost one-fourth of India and it will get destroyed by few of India's front line fighters. And even new countable nukes on hand to get wipe out. Don't bring irrational logic.



LOL! so India's size is bigger that means more area to protect --- Dont tell me IAF is going to field all the strength near PAF's borders while leaving China alone --- as for nukes --- 

This is what your scientists say about your delivery systems

India's nuclear arsenal failed by 'unreliable' missiles : India, News - India Today




> The most authoritative non-governmental assessment of world nuclear forces has revealed that India's nuclear capabilities *are seriously lagging behind those of its putative adversaries, Pakistan and China. The evaluation by Hans M. Kristensen and Robert S. Norris in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists called "Indian nuclear forces, 2012", reveals that for New Delhi, the principal means of weapons delivery remains fixed-wing aircraft like the Mirage-2000 and the Jaguar.*



*

P.S YOU SHOULD LEAVE THESE TOPICS AS THEY ARE NOT RELATED TO THE THREAD ___ OTHERWISE YOU MAY GET BOTH OUR ***** BANNED!*

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## bigzgvr4

^^ lol  classic Uranium Problems Even one of them did not Exploded in Japan out of 4 three worked 2 were devestating 
would you guys agree on the idea Paf should Replace MIrages with J-10, F-7 with FC-1 and Start a JV with China ON LONG Range Stealth Bomber and A SInGle Engine Stealth Fighter Based on that Pic i posted Earlier, FOCUS all their budget On that and ARMY Can Worry About Making UCAV like the Predator and warrior alpha and then Later after those 2 projects they Can Make UCAV like X-47


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## Manticore

Stick to topic, gents


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## applesauce

bigzgvr4 said:


> which aircraft is this can some one translate the writings



it says

"another FC-1 based, stealth fighter concept circulating on the internet"

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## bigzgvr4

applesauce said:


> it says
> 
> "another FC-1 based, stealth fighter concept circulating on the internet"



thanks bro


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## tarrar

When is Pakistan buying J10 B, I thought they were suppose to come last year in 2012?


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## CrazyPaki

tarrar said:


> When is Pakistan buying J10 B, I thought they were suppose to come last year in 2012?



wont be hearing anything until after the election from what i can tell


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## S-A-B-E-R->

bigzgvr4 said:


> which aircraft is this can some one translate the writings


this came in around 2007 -08 time when talks about a lo ob version of jf17 was in the talks...i dont know if this is the offical version cuz the one proposed had single tail not 2.


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## umair86pk

it has some resemblance with JSF


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## hashirkhan

araz said:


> The problem is purely a financial one. Adding more JFT is a necessity which is agreed by all. Adding a later block with IRST,dual ejector racks and a refueling probe with the possibility of an AESA radar and 2 additional hardpoints(even for a pod) would suffice for PAFs needs for 6-8 yrs. As mentioned before the high ups in PAF feel there is security in numbers in the case of F16s and financially with the begging bowl out it wont break the bank either.
> Post 2018-20 all the money that we have(or dont) can be utilized to buy J 31 with commonality between it and JFTwith regards to engine a d even some avuonics. Overall it would prove to be a much more effective package considering the adversary will have Rafale and pakfa. This I feel is what is the thought process within the PAF currently.You can argue with it but it does sound logical.
> Araz



Exactly, but i have a question, what will happen in the gap of years, when there would be PAK-FA and Rafals in the indian inventory, and we would be formulating our purchases, we would be vulnerable i think. i am a starter so dont mind if my question is not up to the mark.
Regards


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## araz

hashirkhan said:


> Exactly, but i have a question, what will happen in the gap of years, when there would be PAK-FA and Rafals in the indian inventory, and we would be formulating our purchases, we would be vulnerable i think. i am a starter so dont mind if my question is not up to the mark.
> Regards



Hi. 
I have partly answered your querry towards the end of my post. PAF can never win at ththe numbers game. Our only defence is to make it so costly for the enemy that a victory would be out of the consideration. Jingoism aside with an inept and corrupt government an econmy in tatters the best that we can achieve is what I have mentioned. Please also note that at this point in time no one is willing to part with any technology or equipment to us as they dont want to annoy a vendor with a much bigger buying power than us so our options also are limited.
Araz

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## baron von richtofen

is there a MoU signed? 
haven't heard of one then why is there such a fuss?


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## [--Leo--]

baron von richtofen said:


> is there a MoU signed?
> haven't heard of one then why is there such a fuss?



it is signed i remember galani singed it in 2011 i think so in tour of china


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## baron von richtofen

[--Leo--];4078168 said:


> it is signed i remember galani singed it in 2011 i think so in tour of china



could you provide with a source?

as i am unsure myself.


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## [--Leo--]

baron von richtofen said:


> could you provide with a source?
> 
> as i am unsure myself.



http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=687957
China-Pak in MoU to Develop Stealth Variant of JF-17 Thunder | ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS


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## Thunder_Rider

India-France giant fighter jet deal stalled: report - The West Australian

NEW DELHI (AFP) - India's negotiations with France's Dassault Aviation on a $12-billion deal for Rafale fighter jets have stalled due to disagreements over the production of the planes in India, a report said Friday.

The defence deal, one of the biggest ever, was to see the manufacture of the first 18 of the jets in France with the remainder to be produced under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), a state-run Indian aerospace behemoth.

The Indian Express newspaper, citing anonymous sources in its report, said that Dassault had refused to take responsibility for the 108 jets to be manufactured by HAL, sparking a row with New Delhi.

The French firm reportedly told Indian officials that New Delhi would have to negotiate two contracts, one with Dassault for 18 fighters and the other with HAL for the remaining 108 aircraft.

The defence ministry "completely rejected this suggestion and made it clear to Dassault that it (the French company) will be solely responsible for the sale and delivery of all 126 aircraft," the newspaper reported, citing sources.

Dassault is thought to have reservations about the ability of HAL, a firm renowned for its inefficiencies, to handle the complex manufacturing and technology transfers which are a crucial part of the deal.

The Rafale beat off stiff competition from six rivals from Russia, the US and Europe last year when India selected the French fighter to replace its ageing fleet.

Its main rival, the Eurofighter made by European group EADS, has remained in India and is still hoping to bag the deal in case Dassault is unable to conclude the negotiations successfully.

A Dassault spokeswoman said she was unable to comment immediately on the report when contacted by AFP.

The Rafale has carried out bombing missions in Afghanistan, Libya and most recently in Mali, where it is currently flying sorties targeting Islamist militants.

India's air force chief said in February that the country hopes to sign the deal with Dassault Aviation by the middle of the year.

________________________________________________

Maybe this^^^^^^^^ is the reason why we have no recent update on the procurement of J-10Bs by PAF.


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## Zarvan

Thunder_Rider said:


> India-France giant fighter jet deal stalled: report - The West Australian
> 
> NEW DELHI (AFP) - India's negotiations with France's Dassault Aviation on a $12-billion deal for Rafale fighter jets have stalled due to disagreements over the production of the planes in India, a report said Friday.
> 
> The defence deal, one of the biggest ever, was to see the manufacture of the first 18 of the jets in France with the remainder to be produced under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), a state-run Indian aerospace behemoth.
> 
> The Indian Express newspaper, citing anonymous sources in its report, said that Dassault had refused to take responsibility for the 108 jets to be manufactured by HAL, sparking a row with New Delhi.
> 
> The French firm reportedly told Indian officials that New Delhi would have to negotiate two contracts, one with Dassault for 18 fighters and the other with HAL for the remaining 108 aircraft.
> 
> The defence ministry "completely rejected this suggestion and made it clear to Dassault that it (the French company) will be solely responsible for the sale and delivery of all 126 aircraft," the newspaper reported, citing sources.
> 
> Dassault is thought to have reservations about the ability of HAL, a firm renowned for its inefficiencies, to handle the complex manufacturing and technology transfers which are a crucial part of the deal.
> 
> The Rafale beat off stiff competition from six rivals from Russia, the US and Europe last year when India selected the French fighter to replace its ageing fleet.
> 
> Its main rival, the Eurofighter made by European group EADS, has remained in India and is still hoping to bag the deal in case Dassault is unable to conclude the negotiations successfully.
> 
> A Dassault spokeswoman said she was unable to comment immediately on the report when contacted by AFP.
> 
> The Rafale has carried out bombing missions in Afghanistan, Libya and most recently in Mali, where it is currently flying sorties targeting Islamist militants.
> 
> India's air force chief said in February that the country hopes to sign the deal with Dassault Aviation by the middle of the year.
> 
> ________________________________________________
> 
> Maybe this^^^^^^^^ is the reason why we have no recent update on the procurement of J-10Bs by PAF.


we still need J-10 b our main issue is economy if that gets better we will order it as soon as possible


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## araz

Zarvan said:


> we still need J-10 b our main issue is economy if that gets better we will order it as soon as possible



You need to give it time to mature. Adding and relying a half baked project would be stupidity. Even the chinese have yet to induct the J10 B version in their regiments. Must be a reason for it. 
Araz


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## CrazyPaki

araz said:


> You need to give it time to mature. Adding and relying a half baked project would be stupidity. Even the chinese have yet to induct the J10 B version in their regiments. Must be a reason for it.
> Araz


any idea of how long it might take ?


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## INDIAISM

CrazyPaki said:


> any idea of how long it might take ?


Atleast 5-7 years if you want J10 B with WS 10 Engine.....

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## araz

CrazyPaki said:


> any idea of how long it might take ?



I cant be absolutely sure but the way things are going it is unlikely that you will see it before 5 yrs in PAF colours if at all.I think it is morelikely that PAF might skip it altogether and go for J31,considering the engine similarity between it and JFT . It may also be possible that PAF makes enough changes to later iterations of JFT to induct some of the capabilities of J31 and retain the later for air superiority and deep strike(that is if there is ever a role for deep strike after the induction of standoff weapons). These arepurely my views and you can agree or disagree.
Araz

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## CrazyPaki

araz said:


> I cant be absolutely sure but the way things are going it is unlikely that you will see it before 5 yrs in PAF colours if at all.I think it is morelikely that PAF might skip it altogether and go for J31,considering the engine similarity between it and JFT . It may also be possible that PAF makes enough changes to later iterations of JFT to induct some of the capabilities of J31 and retain the later for air superiority and deep strike(that is if there is ever a role for deep strike after the induction of standoff weapons). These arepurely my views and you can agree or disagree.
> Araz



the idea makes a lot of sense


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## Genesis

INDIAISM said:


> Atleast 5-7 years if you want J10 B with WS 10 Engine.....



unfortunately probably. Maybe if everything goes well, not quite that long, but 4-6 years is probably a good time frame. 

Though I think it will still be in time, PAK FA is not going to be mass produced like the F-35 is from what I been hearing, at least not before 2025. I could be wrong. not sure how many India will be getting, but looking at Russian numbers can't be more than 30-40 before 2025-2030. Could still be wrong. 

So Pakistan still got a good 5-10 years to really induct the J-10 B into the airforce in large numbers and maybe get a few J-31s when India is inducting it's PAk FAs really into the Airforce.

Side note, funny name PAK-FA when I first read the title I thought it was a Pakistan weapon. lol I guess I know why the Indians choose the PAK FA project instead of the F-35s.


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## Luftwaffe

@nuclearpak @Aeronaut Could you make changes to the Title of this Thread J-10/FC-20 without MRCA it was never an MRCA.


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## Jango

Luftwaffe said:


> @nuclearpak @Aeronaut Could you make changes to the Title of this Thread J-10/FC-20 without MRCA it was never an MRCA.



Well isn't it a Multi Role combat aircraft?


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## Luftwaffe

nuclearpak said:


> Well isn't it a Multi Role combat aircraft?



Doh Yes it is nevermind I had something else in mind.


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## Glitcher

araz said:


> I cant be absolutely sure but the way things are going it is unlikely that you will see it before 5 yrs in PAF colours if at all.I think it is morelikely that PAF might skip it altogether and go for J31,considering the engine similarity between it and JFT . It may also be possible that PAF makes enough changes to later iterations of JFT to induct some of the capabilities of J31 and retain the later for air superiority and deep strike(that is if there is ever a role for deep strike after the induction of standoff weapons). These arepurely my views and you can agree or disagree.
> Araz



Sir with due respect i think J31 will have WS13 engine not WS10 or RD93 so situation is a bit diff i think it would be better if we have 1 or 2 sqd of j10b just to make us safe during 2015 to 2025 after that we can go for j31 because i dont see fagfa in IAF before 2022-2023 so we must have some thing to counter su30mki or super mki rest can be handled by JFT blk2 and blk3 dont you think ?
no disrespact intended you senior member and i could learn a lot from you.


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## araz

Glitcher said:


> Sir with due respect i think J31 will have WS13 engine not WS10 or RD93 so situation is a bit diff i think it would be better if we have 1 or 2 sqd of j10b just to make us safe during 2015 to 2025 after that we can go for j31 because i dont see fagfa in IAF before 2022-2023 so we must have some thing to counter su30mki or super mki rest can be handled by JFT blk2 and blk3 dont you think ?
> no disrespact intended you senior member and i could learn a lot from you.



Please read my post again. Where did I mention WS10? J31 is currently flying with RD93s. When we do get WS13/15 do you think PAF would want to continue going for RD93? Please also note the financial situation that we are in. It does not behove another platform whhich would need anothere setup of infra structure and years of practice to get used to and train pilots. People here have a tendency to think that we have a love affair with the F16, which is why we want more and more of them. That is a serious inconsideration odf the capability of the senior brass of PAF to think and act. In fact it is the consideration of the infrastructure that is already set up that is forcing PAF to continue going for more F16s. A squadron of F16 and a couple of MLUed F16s squadrons will see us safely into the period that you are mentioning. Where there is a capability gap, dont think that China will be able to fulfill that gap vis a vis IAF. So J10B will not satisfy that role. As to numbers please consider your buying power against the buying power of the Indians. You wil never win at the numbers game with them and if you try you will bankrupt yourself.
With the exception of the PAKFA all the fighters that you have mentioned can be countered with our current strategy and decent AMRAAMs. So the need for J10 remains unproven even on that count. The future war theatre will be concentrated around AWAACS interlinking of planes and secure communications as well as advanced AMRAAMS rather than too much of close in fighting. If JFT is at Par with the F16Bl15(the most maneouverable paltform that PAF has) we are in good stead in the latter scenario. Considering the delays IAF is having in inducting Rafale we dont need to rush into anything ,but concentrate on improving our economy and further improve and mature the JFT as much as is possible. I was immensely surprised to learn a few months ago an assessment from PAF insiders which seemed to suggest that the possibilities of improvement on the JFT and its advancement is much more than the J10Bs. It would really surprise me if the PAF are saying this without any proof.
Araz

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## Glitcher

araz said:


> Please read my post again. Where did I mention WS10? J31 is currently flying with RD93s. When we do get WS13/15 do you think PAF would want to continue going for RD93? Please also note the financial situation that we are in. It does not behove another platform whhich would need anothere setup of infra structure and years of practice to get used to and train pilots. People here have a tendency to think that we have a love affair with the F16, which is why we want more and more of them. That is a serious inconsideration odf the capability of the senior brass of PAF to think and act. In fact it is the consideration of the infrastructure that is already set up that is forcing PAF to continue going for more F16s. A squadron of F16 and a couple of MLUed F16s squadrons will see us safely into the period that you are mentioning. Where there is a capability gap, dont think that China will be able to fulfill that gap vis a vis IAF. So J10B will not satisfy that role. As to numbers please consider your buying power against the buying power of the Indians. You wil never win at the numbers game with them and if you try you will bankrupt yourself.
> With the exception of the PAKFA all the fighters that you have mentioned can be countered with our current strategy and decent AMRAAMs. So the need for J10 remains unproven even on that count. The future war theatre will be concentrated around AWAACS interlinking of planes and secure communications as well as advanced AMRAAMS rather than too much of close in fighting. If JFT is at Par with the F16Bl15(the most maneouverable paltform that PAF has) we are in good stead in the latter scenario. Considering the delays IAF is having in inducting Rafale we dont need to rush into anything ,but concentrate on improving our economy and further improve and mature the JFT as much as is possible. I was immensely surprised to learn a few months ago an assessment from PAF insiders which seemed to suggest that the possibilities of improvement on the JFT and its advancement is much more than the J10Bs. It would really surprise me if the PAF are saying this without any proof.
> Araz



thank you sir but i have some questions to ask do you think that j31 will setisfy us ? i have heard that it will not going to be a pure 5th gen fighter but 4++ stealthy fighter rather j20 is better plane then j31


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## araz

Glitcher said:


> thank you sir but i have some questions to ask do you think that j31 will setisfy us ? i have heard that it will not going to be a pure 5th gen fighter but 4++ stealthy fighter rather j20 is better plane then j31



Weare very far from that stage,as the plane is still indevelopment. we need to wait for those Answers.I think PAF top brass seems to think so


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## fatman17

*more issues with the chinese powerplant.....*

"The production of J-10B has been postponed, due to the production quality issues of WS-10B. However it was speculated that the first batch of production J-10Bs would be powered by Russian AL-31FN engine and could enter the service with PLAAF 44th Division in late 2013. The latest images (March 2013) indicated that the 1031 prototype has been modified with ECM antennas installed ahead of the canard foreplanes similar to those onboard 1035, which represents the final configuration before the production. A further upgraded semi-stealth variant with CFT (J-10C?) was rumored to be under development but no information is available."

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> *more issues with the chinese powerplant.....*
> 
> "The production of J-10B has been postponed, due to the production quality issues of WS-10B. However it was speculated that the first batch of production J-10Bs would be powered by Russian AL-31FN engine and could enter the service with PLAAF 44th Division in late 2013. The latest images (March 2013) indicated that the 1031 prototype has been modified with ECM antennas installed ahead of the canard foreplanes similar to those onboard 1035, which represents the final configuration before the production. A further upgraded semi-stealth variant with CFT (J-10C?) was rumored to be under development but no information is available."



Issues and setbacks are actually good in engineering, as they force you to iron out the kinks. It shows that full effort is underway.

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Issues and setbacks are actually good in engineering, as they force you to iron out the kinks. It shows that full effort is underway.



hope you r right.....


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## DANGER-ZONE

Donatello said:


> Issues and setbacks are actually good in engineering, as they force you to iron out the kinks. It shows that full effort is underway.



In that cast, LCA is the finest machine and Indians are world class engineers. 

*ON TOPIC.* I guess this thread need to be closed down or moved to Chinese section, as there is no dedicated J-10 thread and shouldn't open or bring back thread to PAF section unless some solid proof comes up that pakistan is actually acquiring the j-10s.


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## Donatello

danger-zone said:


> In that cast, LCA is the finest machine and Indians are world class engineers.
> 
> *ON TOPIC.* I guess this thread need to be closed down or moved to Chinese section, as there is no dedicated J-10 thread and shouldn't open or bring back thread to PAF section unless some solid proof comes up that pakistan is actually acquiring the j-10s.




LCA is taking time because it's not their priority. It's like a parallel program for self-learning. They are learning a lot, just at a slow pace. Majority of their requirement is being met by SU30MKIs, Mirage 2000, Mig29 and the MMRCA. If LCA was destined to form the backbone like JF-17 is for PAF, then they would have too be able to put all the funding and manpower into it.


If you don't attempt something you will not know if it will work or not. In engineering, drawings and concept are the easy part. 


Look a the F-35, F-22 Raptor development. Look at the Boeing 787 issues. Or the new Litorral Combat Ship programme of the US Navy. They all have issues which are found only after the product has been produced

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## 420canada

is Pakistan still getting the Fc-20?


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## Munir

Donatello said:


> LCA is taking time because it's not their priority. It's like a parallel program for self-learning. They are learning a lot, just at a slow pace. Majority of their requirement is being met by SU30MKIs, Mirage 2000, Mig29 and the MMRCA. If LCA was destined to form the backbone like JF-17 is for PAF, then they would have too be able to put all the funding and manpower into it.
> 
> 
> If you don't attempt something you will not know if it will work or not. In engineering, drawings and concept are the easy part.
> 
> 
> Look a the F-35, F-22 Raptor development. Look at the Boeing 787 issues. Or the new Litorral Combat Ship programme of the US Navy. They all have issues which are found only after the product has been produced



What did they learn from LCA?


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## jroll

I wonder if the visit by the Russian air force has anything to do with the export of the AL-31FN engine ?


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## araz

jroll said:


> I wonder if the visit by the Russian air force has anything to do with the export of the AL-31FN engine ?



Somehow I doubt it. PAF is already jittery about use of RD93 and would love to switch over to apowerplant from a sanction proof source but it is not happenning. I dont think it will complicate matters further by taking on AL31FN.The likelihood maybe setting up overhaul facilities for RD93 perhaps with some leeway to tweek things a bit.This may explain the visit to Kamra.
Araz

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## itaskol

leak photos of j10 B are 1031,1033,1034,1035.
strang that no one ever seen 1032

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## maniac@666

nice fighter aircraft buddy.i like it's design.


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## Luftwaffe

itaskol said:


> leak photos of j10 B are 1031,1033,1034,1035.



IFR on 1035 only?


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## Storm Force

very very impressive fighter design by the chinease 

true mid 4th gen fighter

real threat to iaf su30mki me thinks


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## shanixee

Luftwaffe said:


> IFR on 1035 only?



Its Really a very graceful fighter indeed..


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## fatman17

jroll said:


> I wonder if the visit by the Russian air force has anything to do with the export of the AL-31FN engine ?



highly un-likely.


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## fatman17

*J-10B Vigorous Dragon*

The latest 1035 prototype of the J-10B (K/JJ10B?) was photographed at CAC airfield in July 2011, revealing the indigenous WS-10B (?) turbofan engine. 

This much improved variant made its maiden flight on December 23, 2008, powered by a Russian AL-31FN engine (1031 prototype). 

The improvements include a DSI/bump engine inlet which not only cuts weight but also reduces RCS, after a similar design was first tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. The aircraft also features a J-11B style IRST/LR and a wide-angle holographic HUD. IRST allows passive detection of enemy aircraft, making J-10B more stealthy in combat. Its nose appears flatter too, similar to that of American F-16, housing fire-control radar which could be an X-band AESA developed by the 14th Institute (track 10, engage 4 simultaneously), the first of such type ever being developed for a Chinese fighter aircraft, giving J-10B a stronger multi-target engagement and ECCM capability. There were also rumors that a PESA radar developed by the 607 Institute could be installed but this has not been confirmed. An ECM antenna can also be seen right in front of the canard foreplane on 1035. Two large pods housing testing equipments were attached under the wings. The tip of vertical tailfin was redesigned as well, featuring a large fairing containing communication and ECM antennas, which resembles that of French Mirage 2000. A rear facing MAWS sensor can be seen underneath the parachute boom. A similar system was tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. RAM coating is also expected in certain areas such as engine inlet and wing leading edges to reduce RCS. 

The aircraft may be fitted with CFTs in the future to further extend its range. All these improvements suggest that J-10B is equipped with a new generation of integrated electronic system, ranging from radar to EW system. 

Its mission may be changed from air-superiority to multi-role, such as CAS or EW. For air-superiority mission, normally 6 AAMs (PL-12x4 + PL-8x2, PL-12s are carried underneath the twin-rail launch pylon) can be carried. For CAS mission, normally 2 KD-88 AGMs or LS-500J LGBs can be carried. In addition, the aircraft is expected to be powered eventually by a WS-10B turbofan. 

Overall J-10B is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60. The 03 prototype (1033) first flew in August 2009, with the pitot tube removed from the nose tip. Both 1031 & 1034 prototypes have been tested at CFTE. J-10B is likely to serve as a testbed for various advanced technologies adopted by the 4th generation J-20 currently under development at CAC thus may not enter the service in large quantity with PLAAF. 

The production of J-10B has been postponed, due to the production quality issues of WS-10B. However it was speculated that the first batch of production J-10Bs would be powered by Russian AL-31FN engine and could enter the service with PLAAF 44th Division in late 2013. 

The latest images (March 2013) indicated that the 1031 prototype has been modified with ECM antennas installed ahead of the canard foreplanes similar to those onboard 1035, which represents the final configuration before the production. A further upgraded semi-stealth variant with CFT (J-10C?) was rumored to be under development but no information is available. 

- Last Updated 4/16/13

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## Manticore

ANTIBODY said:


> 1. An alternate configuration for the lightweight fighter dated 13 August 1971.



Lockheed Martin's early bomber design exposure


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## Beast

itaskol said:


> leak photos of j10 B are 1031,1033,1034,1035.
> strang that no one ever seen 1032



1032 maybe used for static or stress test.



jroll said:


> I wonder if the visit by the Russian air force has anything to do with the export of the AL-31FN engine ?



No...

If comes to engine problem. Russia will only talk to Chinese side for re export to Pakistan. Actually, PAF shall go for a heavy weight fighter like Su-35. J-10B is too similar in profile compare to JF-17. Yes, it is more advance and agile but still retain the same short legged air superiority point defense fighter who could not give PAF of another dimension of aerial warfare.

Su-35 will give the heavy load, deep strike capacity that will open another dimension for PAF. It will gives IAF another nightmare.

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## That Guy

Beast said:


> 1032 maybe used for static or stress test.
> 
> 
> 
> No...
> 
> If comes to engine problem. Russia will only talk to Chinese side for re export to Pakistan. Actually, PAF shall go for a heavy weight fighter like Su-35. J-10B is too similar in profile compare to JF-17. Yes, it is more advance and agile but still retain the same short legged air superiority point defense fighter who could not give PAF of another dimension of aerial warfare.
> 
> Su-35 will give the heavy load, deep strike capacity that will open another dimension for PAF. It will gives IAF another nightmare.



That's assuming that Pakistan will ever get the Su-35 or even wants to purchase it, let alone afford it, or have the Russians offer it to them.

Russian-Pakistani relations may be warming, but let's be honest, Russia will not do anything to upset India too much and push their main weapons buyer any further to the US and EU powers.


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## Beast

That Guy said:


> That's assuming that Pakistan will ever get the Su-35 or even wants to purchase it, let alone afford it, or have the Russians offer it to them.
> 
> Russian-Pakistani relations may be warming, but let's be honest, Russia will not do anything to upset India too much and push their main weapons buyer any further to the US and EU powers.



India Russo relationship is already at all time low. The Russian with the take it or leave it attitude for Indian now is well known. The very fact, rafale deal encounter so much difficulties is even pushing Indian depending on Russian arms further. They may end up buying more MKI. Typhoon is not an option since it will have the same problem encountered as rafale.

Russian basically like to do whatever they wants, Russian does not care about India much. Indian arm industries are too dependant on russian. Let me give you one fine example of RD-93 engine re export transfer to PAF. Does it even care about India feeling or interest. Of cos, Russian is smart to play the china card by claiming the customer is China and they are not dealing with Pakistan directly as Russian promise not to sell arms to Pakistan for the sake of India.

It can be done for Su-35 too. 24 Su-35 at a price of $1.5billion is perfect and affordable for PAF who lack a twin engine heavy weight multi role for deep strike capabilities. Russia just need to play dumb and sell it to china and china re export to PAF. Exactly the same thing they did for RD-93 engines.

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## That Guy

Beast said:


> India Russo relationship is already at all time low. The Russian with the take it or leave it attitude for Indian now is well known. The very fact, rafale deal encounter so much difficulties is even pushing Indian depending on Russian arms further. They may end up buying more MKI. Typhoon is not an option since it will have the same problem encountered as rafale.
> 
> Russian basically like to do whatever they wants, Russian does not care about India much. Indian arm industries are too dependant on russian. Let me give you one fine example of RD-93 engine re export transfer to PAF. Does it even care about India feeling or interest. Of cos, Russian is smart to play the china card by claiming the customer is China and they are not dealing with Pakistan directly as Russian promise not to sell arms to Pakistan for the sake of India.
> 
> It can be done for Su-35 too. 24 Su-35 at a price of $1.5billion is perfect and affordable for PAF who lack a twin engine heavy weight multi role for deep strike capabilities. Russia just need to play dumb and sell it to china and china re export to PAF. Exactly the same thing they did for RD-93 engines.



Regardless of the fact that I disagree with a lot of what you said, let's tackle the main issue, does Pakistan even want it? $1.5 billion may seem affordable, but the high maintenance and the costs of maintenance of the Su-35 is not something that Pakistan desires. Pakistan has traditionally bought planes that were low maintenance, and cost little to operate. The only exception to that rule is the F-16s and Pakistan only has them so it has a high-tech fighter to counter India's high-tech fighters.


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## Beast

That Guy said:


> Regardless of the fact that I disagree with a lot of what you said, let's tackle the main issue, does Pakistan even want it? $1.5 billion may seem affordable, but the high maintenance and the costs of maintenance of the Su-35 is not something that Pakistan desires. Pakistan has traditionally bought planes that were low maintenance, and cost little to operate. The only exception to that rule is the F-16s and Pakistan only has them so it has a high-tech fighter to counter India's high-tech fighters.


 Su-35 will be a massive asset for PAF strategy against IAF. Which aircraft now is able to strike deep into Indian soil and force many of the doctrine change for IAF? None. Even the F-16 with CFT is not able to be as long leg or heavy load compare to Su-35.


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## TaimiKhan

Beast said:


> Su-35 will be a massive asset for PAF strategy against IAF. Which aircraft now is able to strike deep into Indian soil and force many of the doctrine change for IAF? None. Even the F-16 with CFT is not able to be as long leg or heavy load compare to Su-35.



Why not then go for cheap options for deep strikes with Cruise missiles or ballistic missiles. Why endanger a 50-60M$ plane for deep strike, when a few hundred thousand missile can do that with accuracy. And what will PAF get with deep strikes, what we need is within 300-400Km of the border.

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## hurt

Beast said:


> Su-35 will be a massive asset for PAF strategy against IAF. Which aircraft now is able to strike deep into Indian soil and force many of the doctrine change for IAF? None. Even the F-16 with CFT is not able to be as long leg or heavy load compare to Su-35.



Bullshit

Different missile,radar,data link,parts,hard logistical.
massive asset ? joke

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## That Guy

Beast said:


> Su-35 will be a massive asset for PAF strategy against IAF. Which aircraft now is able to strike deep into Indian soil and force many of the doctrine change for IAF? None. Even the F-16 with CFT is not able to be as long leg or heavy load compare to Su-35.



Again, back to the main issue, can Pakistan afford it right now? Unless Pakistan nationalizes and expands it's mining of Gold and minerals that are supposedly worth trillions in Baluchistan, or expands it's thar coal mining operatiions in Sindh, which is also supposedly worth trillions, Pakistan can't afford half the things it wants to buy, let alone a fighter jet that the Russians would never sell Pakistan...ever.


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## sancho

Beast said:


> ...Russia just need to play dumb and sell it to china and china re export to PAF. Exactly the same thing they did for RD-93 engines.



 What nonsense, you wasn't able to sell J10As or J11As with Russian engines to Pakistan, but want to divert Su 35s. Why didn't you offered Pakistan KJ 2000, based on the Russian A50? 

Russias argumentation with the RD93 was, that it doesn't matter to India, since we get the same basline engine, but in the latest version and that is the usual argumentation for all nations that sells to Pakistan and to India. The US does it, the Europeans does it, the Brazilians does and even China would do it, if we had no common borderline. At the end, they all want to make money and apart from all political relations, that's an important matter too, which is why China has so much economical relations with India, although being Pakistans prime partner today right?

The only twin engine fighter that makes sense for PAF, would be a stealth fighter in future, but today a cost-effective fleet in good numbers are more important.


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## That Guy

sancho said:


> What nonsense, you wasn't able to sell J10As or J11As with Russian engines to Pakistan, but want to divert Su 35s. Why didn't you offered Pakistan KJ 2000, based on the Russian A50?
> 
> Russias argumentation with the RD93 was, that it doesn't matter to India, since we get the same basline engine, but in the latest version and that is the usual argumentation for all nations that sells to Pakistan and to India. The US does it, the Europeans does it, the Brazilians does and even China would do it, if we had no common borderline. At the end, they all want to make money and apart from all political relations, that's an important matter too, which is why China has so much economical relations with India, although being Pakistans prime partner today right?
> 
> The only twin engine fighter that makes sense for PAF, would be a stealth fighter in future, but today a cost-effective fleet in good numbers are more important.



I agree in the most part with this. PAF main priority should be to get a cost-effective fleet, that can deter any aggression from it's neighbors, not to show off to the world "look at how expensive our fleet is!". This is the reason why the JF-17 was built in the first place, it was to have a fighter that was as capable as Pakistan's older F-16s, sanction proof and most of all CHEAP to produce and maintain. The J-10 will probably not be sold in large numbers to PAF because it simply can't afford to buy any high tech air systems right now, which is what the J-10 would be.


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## Munir

Cost effective? They had after F16a/b nothing new... Just added some F16c/d but bought lots of second hand Mirages, cheap F7's and now busy with fourth gen fighterjet that costs 1/3 of what opponents cost... Who needs learning about cost effective?


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## Storm Force

> Cost effective? They had after F16a/b nothing new... Just added some F16c/d but bought lots of second hand Mirages, cheap F7's and now busy with fourth gen fighterjet that costs 1/3 of what opponents cost... Who needs learning about cost effective?
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...role-fighter-air-craft-439.html#ixzz2RfzB6Dd5



great point munir & 100% true


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## That Guy

Munir said:


> Cost effective? They had after F16a/b nothing new... Just added some F16c/d but bought lots of second hand Mirages, cheap F7's and now busy with fourth gen fighterjet that costs 1/3 of what opponents cost... Who needs learning about cost effective?



But they didn't buy those F-16s on mass, only about 18 which is enough for 1 squadron. Again, the point still remains, the JF-17 is meant to be a cost effective fighter to replace Pakistan's aging Mirages that are too expensive to maintain, and it's F-7s...ditto.



Storm Force said:


> great point munir & 100% true



That depends on what you're agreeing with.


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## Munir

It is good for PAF to get trained on block52 level. They bought minimum of 18 and upgraded all. Bought some second hand. That is the usual way for many nations. Surely they could have skipped new ones but that means you have only old frames with still some engine limitations. You cannot do it cheaper. And yes, you have to pay big time for these new ones and the many new weapon systems.

The mirage have a role that cannot be replaced. They are expensive to maintain but we upgraded them even without help of Dassault. If you already know the plane inside out, have full maintenance knowledge, the infrastructure and you can buy some cheap spare/spareparts then it is a cost effective solution.

F7's are point defence fighters. Good for a2a WVR but I would not do much more with them.

So the JF17 is a very efficient and good project in quality and quantity aspects. There is no better option.

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## Rain

SU 35 is not suitable for PAF, not because of Cost but because of logistics and strategy, we will be dependent of Russia as well as USA and china. instead PAF should focus long terms objectives.
1. keep JF17 going on with upgrades.
2. secure funds for J 31/20 or F 16s/ F 15SE
3. Put an intensive effort for inhouse production of Aesa Radars + Air to Air missiles.
4. stay calm in times when IAF is out of Shoping spree. PAF will gets its turn too sooner than many expect.

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## Donatello

Munir said:


> It is good for PAF to get trained on block52 level. They bought minimum of 18 and upgraded all. Bought some second hand. That is the usual way for many nations. Surely they could have skipped new ones but that means you have only old frames with still some engine limitations. You cannot do it cheaper. And yes, you have to pay big time for these new ones and the many new weapon systems.
> 
> The mirage have a role that cannot be replaced. They are expensive to maintain but we upgraded them even without help of Dassault. If you already know the plane inside out, have full maintenance knowledge, the infrastructure and you can buy some cheap spare/spareparts then it is a cost effective solution.
> 
> F7's are point defence fighters. Good for a2a WVR but I would not do much more with them.
> 
> So the JF17 is a very efficient and good project in quality and quantity aspects. There is no better option.




Munir Saheb,

Upgraded Mirage III/V might be potent, but with two fuel tanks taking up 2/5 Hard Points, Mirage is no longer effective at Interdiction with just 3 hardpoints for weapons, of which 2 probably go to self defense Air to Air missiles.

JF-17 increases that to 7, but the ideal configuration would be to have at least 9 hard points.

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## Munir

@Donatello: Nuke is only using up only one station. And now with IFR you can add range. The Mirages are very potent when it come to attacking.

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## Armstrong

Munir said:


> It is good for PAF to get trained on block52 level. They bought minimum of 18 and upgraded all. Bought some second hand. That is the usual way for many nations. Surely they could have skipped new ones but that means you have only old frames with still some engine limitations. You cannot do it cheaper. And yes, you have to pay big time for these new ones and the many new weapon systems.
> 
> The mirage have a role that cannot be replaced. They are expensive to maintain but we upgraded them even without help of Dassault. If you already know the plane inside out, have full maintenance knowledge, the infrastructure and you can buy some cheap spare/spareparts then it is a cost effective solution.
> 
> F7's are point defence fighters. Good for a2a WVR but I would not do much more with them.
> 
> So the JF17 is a very efficient and good project in quality and quantity aspects. There is no better option.



*Munir Bhai*, 

(i) Many a posters have said before that were the JF-17's prospected upgrades go accordingly to plan, the PAF might even skip the J-10B as an option & think of going for the Chinese singled engined 5th Generation J-31 when it matures !

(ii) Also if one were to draw up a comparative between the (a) the JF-17 vs the F-16 & (b) the J-10B vs the F-16 , to which F-16 Blocks would both (a) & (b) be equivalent to ? 

Thank You, much obliged !


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## FarazUSA

Armstrong said:


> *Munir Bhai*,
> 
> (i) Many a posters have said before that were the JF-17's prospected upgrades go accordingly to plan, the PAF might even skip the J-10B as an option & think of going for the Chinese singled engined 5th Generation J-31 when it matures !
> 
> (ii) Also if one were to draw up a comparative between the (a) the JF-17 vs the F-16 & (b) the J-10B vs the F-16 , to which F-16 Blocks would both (a) & (b) be equivalent to ?
> 
> Thank You, much obliged !



(i) 10 years or later, the fourth generation jets won't have much relevance since your opponent is going to field at least 4++ generation fighters. No matter how much you upgrade JF-17 or J-10, I don't think it can come into category of stealth where RCS claim is confirmed to be 0.0001 or -40dBsm(F-22). Therefore, all our endeavors should be towards fielding a 5th generation jet as I am one of the guys who thinks quality should always be given priority to quantity. Moreover, Jf-17 seriously needs an engine upgrade.

(ii) JF-17 Blk2 would be equivalent to F-16 Blk 52 since it does not have AESA. When JF-17 gets one, it would surpass Blk52. If J-10B has all what wiki states, it is already better than F-16 Blk52. Anyways, the experts can correct me if I am wrong though.

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## Donatello

Munir said:


> @Donatello: Nuke is only using up only one station. And now with IFR you can add range. The Mirages are very potent when it come to attacking.




Sirjee,

With due respect, one shouldn't plan a fleet based on the fact that one nuke is enough so one hardpoint is enough. How many times have nukes actually been flown?


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Sirjee,
> 
> With due respect, one shouldn't plan a fleet based on the fact that one nuke is enough so one hardpoint is enough. How many times have nukes actually been flown?



munir is right - the only known config. for nukes is 1 / aircraft. F-16 or Mirage V


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## fatman17

Table 1. Pakistan&#8217;s nuclear forces, 2011

Type......Range.......... Year.......... Payload....
aircraft...(kilometers)... Introduced. (kilograms)
F-16A/B. 1,600........... 1998......... 1 bomb
Mirage V. 2,100............1998......... 1 bomb


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## fatman17

Nuclear-capable aircraft

Pakistan probably assigns its F-16A/B aircraft to the nuclear role, although some Mirage Vs could also have a nuclear mission. The F-16A/Bs were supplied by the United States between 1983 and 1987, and the units with the nuclear mission probably include Squadrons 9 and 11 at Sargodha AirBase, which is located 160km (100 miles) northwest of Lahore. Pakistan's F-16A/Bs, which have a range of 1,600km (extendable when equipped with drop tanks), most likely carry a single bomb on the centerline pylon.

the F-16C/D's have now replaced the Mirage V's

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## Armstrong

fatman17 said:


> Nuclear-capable aircraft
> 
> Pakistan probably assigns its F-16A/B aircraft to the nuclear role, although some Mirage Vs could also have a nuclear mission. The F-16A/Bs were supplied by the United States between 1983 and 1987, and the units with the nuclear mission probably include Squadrons 9 and 11 at Sargodha AirBase, which is located 160km (100 miles) northwest of Lahore. Pakistan's F-16A/Bs, which have a range of 1,600km (extendable when equipped with drop tanks), most likely carry a single bomb on the centerline pylon.
> 
> the F-16C/D's have now replaced the Mirage V's



Hey but wouldn't we need their source codes or something to integrate the nuclear weapons onto them ? 

I would imagine our F-16s aren't equipped to fire Ra'ad or Babur or any of our Pakistani or Chinese origin missiles & I don't think the Americans would have supplied us anything that we could put a nuclear warhead on ! 

Or are you talking about a Strategic Nuke ala Hiroshima style - An unguided bomb dropped from above ?

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## fatman17

Armstrong said:


> Hey but wouldn't we need their source codes or something to integrate the nuclear weapons onto them ?
> 
> I would imagine our F-16s aren't equipped to fire Ra'ad or Babur or any of our Pakistani or Chinese origin missiles & I don't think the Americans would have supplied us anything that we could put a nuclear warhead on !
> 
> Or are you talking about a Strategic Nuke ala Hiroshima style - *An unguided bomb dropped from above ?*



the 'toss' method it is called - i think...

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## Capt.Popeye

fatman17 said:


> the 'toss' method it is called - i think...



That is correct. It is called the 'Toss-Bombing' Technique.

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> the 'toss' method it is called - i think...



I think Armatrong is referring to a free fall where the bomb just keeps going down.

Toss bombing is a bit different, just before releasing the bomb, the plane pitches up and climbs, so the bomb follows a ballistic path where it first climbs then descends, a parabolic path which gives it more air time and distance without the aircraft getting too close. It is unguided though.

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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> I think Armatrong is referring to a free fall where the bomb just keeps going down.
> 
> Toss bombing is a bit different, just before releasing the bomb, the plane pitches up and climbs, so the bomb follows a ballistic path where it first climbs then descends, a parabolic path which gives it more air time and distance without the aircraft getting too close. It is unguided though.



exactly thats how they train.


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> exactly thats how they train.



PAF on the F16?


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## Armstrong

fatman17 said:


> the 'toss' method it is called - i think...





Capt.Popeye said:


> That is correct. It is called the 'Toss-Bombing' Technique.





nuclearpak said:


> I think Armatrong is referring to a free fall where the bomb just keeps going down.
> 
> Toss bombing is a bit different, just before releasing the bomb, the plane pitches up and climbs, so the bomb follows a ballistic path where it first climbs then descends, a parabolic path which gives it more air time and distance without the aircraft getting too close. It is unguided though.



Actually what I was trying to get at, in my own amateurish way, was a simple question - How do we plan on using our F-16s to drop nukes if we don't have the source codes or are we planning on dropping a WW2 era unguided dumb bomb in case of a Nuclear War ?


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## Capt.Popeye

nuclearpak said:


> I think Armatrong is referring to a free fall where the bomb just keeps going down.
> 
> Toss bombing is a bit different, just before releasing the bomb, the plane pitches up and climbs, so the bomb follows a ballistic path where it first climbs then descends, a parabolic path which gives it more air time and distance without the aircraft getting too close. It is unguided though.



You're right about that. Hiroshima was simply a gravity release of a dumb(?) bomb. Where the Aircraft "Enola Gay" was flying very high to avoid blast. That technique was acceptable for slow-flying aircraft of that time will not work for todays faster and smaller jets. Plus that old technique will also have accuracy issues.


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## Jango

Capt.Popeye said:


> You're right about that. Hiroshima was simply a gravity release of a dumb(?) bomb. Where the Aircraft "Enola Gay" was flying very high to avoid blast. That technique was acceptable for slow-flying aircraft of that time will not work for todays faster and smaller jets. Plus that old technique will also have accuracy issues.



You dont worry about accuracy from a nuke do you?!


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## Capt.Popeye

Armstrong said:


> Actually what I was trying to get at, in my own amateurish way, was a simple question - How do we plan on using our F-16s to drop nukes if we don't have the source codes or are we planning on dropping a WW2 era unguided dumb bomb in case of a Nuclear War ?



I don't have the answer to that, sorry. The aicraft pilot would need to 'arm' the bomb before he drops it. That would need access to the source codes of the aircraft weapon control systems.



nuclearpak said:


> You dont worry about accuracy from a nuke do you?!



To some extent you do. 'Ground Zero' is pre-determined and must be adhered to as much as possible. If for example you are are targeting an important Enemy Command and Control Center; you'd like to vaporise it instantly rather than a Dairy Farm some miles away. 
So that the Enemy has no chance to react.

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## Argus Panoptes

Armstrong said:


> Actually what I was trying to get at, in my own amateurish way, was a simple question - How do we plan on using our F-16s to drop nukes if we don't have the source codes or *are we planning on dropping a WW2 era unguided dumb bomb in case of a Nuclear War* ?



In case of a nuclear war, it is the missiles that will carry most of the warheads, not airplanes, which are of secondary importance for this purpose.

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## Armstrong

Argus Panoptes said:


> In case of a nuclear war, it is the missiles that will carry most of the warheads, not airplanes, which are of secondary importance for this purpose.



I know - I was just wondering what do we mean when we say & have said in the past that we've got aircraft equipped with nuclear warheads in case of a nuclear war ?


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## Argus Panoptes

Armstrong said:


> I know - I was just wondering what do we mean when we say & have said in the past that we've got aircraft equipped with nuclear warheads in case of a nuclear war ?



That was a long time ago when we did not have such advanced missile technology, so creating a nuclear deterrent quickly with airplanes was vitally important. Now we have missiles for that purpose. The march of technology Sir.

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## Armstrong

Argus Panoptes said:


> That was a long time ago when we did not have such advanced missile technology, so creating a nuclear deterrent quickly with airplanes was vitally important. Now we have missiles for that purpose. The march of technology Sir.



Huzooor I understand that but my original question remains - Even if we had designated a squadron of our airplanes for a nuclear role - What did that mean ? We didn't have the source codes & so how could the F-16s ever carry a Nuke ?


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## Argus Panoptes

Armstrong said:


> Huzooor I understand that but my original question remains - Even if we had designated a squadron of our airplanes for a nuclear role - What did that mean ? We didn't have the source codes & so how could the F-16s ever carry a Nuke ?



Sirjee, this thread will go off topic if I answer that question. Agar Mods jaan kee amaan dein to himmat karoon.

Best to wait for seniors to answer that I think.

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## Armstrong

Argus Panoptes said:


> Sirjee, this thread will go off topic if I answer that question. Agar Mods jaan kee amaan dein to himmat karoon.
> 
> Best to wait for seniors to answer that I think.



How about you answer it in Naswaristan ?

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## Capt.Popeye

Armstrong said:


> How about you answer it in Naswaristan ?



Does Naswaristan have its own Rules and Sovereignty? Like FATA?

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## Armstrong

Capt.Popeye said:


> Does Naswaristan have its own Rules and Sovereignty? Like FATA?



Yes ! 

We even had @WebMaster stripped butt-naked & made to sing Marry had a Little Lamb whilst juggling a couple of porcupines !

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## Capt.Popeye

Armstrong said:


> Yes !
> 
> We even had @WebMaster stripped butt-naked & made to sing Marry had a Little Lamb whilst juggling a couple of porcupines !



LOL; I must try out that place then. 
But no more on this, no more off-topic. Thanks.

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## That Guy

Stay on topic please, any news? There were some rumors that China was currently testing the Pakistani version of the J-10 with "enhanced" the WS-10 engines, whatever "enhanced" is supposed to mean.


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## alimobin memon

That Guy said:


> Stay on topic please, any news? There were some rumors that China was currently testing the Pakistani version of the J-10 with "enhanced" the WS-10 engines, whatever "enhanced" is supposed to mean.



Are you sure ? cause that's really Exciting to here !


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## That Guy

alimobin memon said:


> Are you sure ? cause that's really Exciting to here !



It would be, but the same rumors said that the Chinese were having trouble with the Pakistani version and may delay it to 2015-16.


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## Rajput_Pakistani

Armstrong said:


> Huzooor I understand that but my original question remains - Even if we had designated a squadron of our airplanes for a nuclear role - What did that mean ? We didn't have the source codes & so how could the F-16s ever carry a Nuke ?



Sir, agar mai jaan ki aman pao tu arz karta hun

As u know, there are 2 kinds of bombs. Guided and Un-guided.

Guided bombs are the one also called as "Precision munition" need source code access, as they have to be linked with Main computer on-top the aircraft. The data which aircraft computer collect from its own radar or other sources is transfer to the "guidance kit" or Laser guidance pod. The bomb then guide itself to that target fed into its own memory. Yes, the guidance could be satellite, laser designated or territory recognition (TERCOM). Kindly check the LS series of Chinese bombs. Its basically the guidance kit which have wings also. You attach that Kit to any dumb bomb and it will be converted into Guided ammunition. 

The un-guided bombs are dumb bombs, which are just dropped near the target (as WW-II pilots use to do). Unguided bombs dont need to have any source code modification or access needed. Consider the center-pylon of F-16. F-16 dont need to know, that a bomb is hanging from there or a fuel tank. On pilot button press, it will just eject its load.

Nuclear bombs dont need the precision as such. A bomb dropped on a city, either 100m here or 100m there wouldn't make any difference. F-16 were selected back then just because of their longer range and other advancements as compared to rest of planes present in PAF inventory.

Lets consider, If now Pakistan has developed tactical nuclear weapons and lets suppose we want to hit a major industrial complex. Then guided nuclear bomb will be used, surely you need to access source code then.

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## sancho

That Guy said:


> Stay on topic please, any news? There were some rumors that China was currently testing the Pakistani version of the J-10 with "enhanced" the WS-10 engines, whatever "enhanced" is supposed to mean.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...tirole-fighter-air-craft-438.html#post4178189


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## Munir

Russia needs to export it goods through Pakistan. The whole Afghanistan war was never about Afghanistan but getting Pakistani coast. They still need it. The Russians walk a fine line not to make the Indians very unhappy but with Russia getting richer that situation is changing. Back then they needed an idiot to fund Su30-MK... Now they will sell PAKFA and smile... Indians can not run away. Hence RD33...

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## That Guy

Munir said:


> Russia needs to export it goods through Pakistan. The whole Afghanistan war was never about Afghanistan but getting Pakistani coast. They still need it. The Russians walk a fine line not to make the Indians very unhappy but with Russia getting richer that situation is changing. Back then they needed an idiot to fund Su30-MK... Now they will sell PAKFA and smile... Indians can not run away. Hence RD33...



The Russians no longer need Pakistan's coasts, as they have India's. Having said that, Russia needs to expand it's markets, and what better way than to expand into one of the largest populated nations in the world, Pakistan. Granted, India outnumbers Pakistan 10-1, but Pakistan is an untapped market and Russia would do well to drill into it.

Anyways, that's off topic.

The engine isn't being sold to Pakistan directly, it's being sold to China who're assembling it for the JF-17 for Pakistan. Eventually, the Chinese are gonna re-export it directly to Pakistan and with the warming relations between Pakistan and Russia, I doubt that Russia is going to protest.

I think that in the long term, Russia wants to start selling Mil-equipment to Pakistan, in the short term though, there is no way that the Russians would jeopardize their intense (but receding) relations with India for Pakistan.

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## Liquidmetal

That Guy said:


> The Russians no longer need Pakistan's coasts, as they have India's. Having said that, Russia needs to expand it's markets, and what better way than to expand into one of the largest populated nations in the world, Pakistan. Granted, India outnumbers Pakistan 10-1, but Pakistan is an untapped market and Russia would do well to drill into it.
> 
> Anyways, that's off topic.
> 
> The engine isn't being sold to Pakistan directly, it's being sold to China who're assembling it for the JF-17 for Pakistan. Eventually, the Chinese are gonna re-export it directly to Pakistan and with the warming relations between Pakistan and Russia, I doubt that Russia is going to protest.
> 
> I think that in the long term, Russia wants to start selling Mil-equipment to Pakistan, in the short term though, there is no way that the Russians would jeopardize their intense (but receding) relations with India for Pakistan.



You are right, the Russian's have long memories and will not want to sell to a country that had become a stuck bone in their throats when they rolled their tanks into our ungrateful neighbour. However, the Russians would also do well to see how their cold war ally is now sitting in the laps of the US and Europe, if the US can sell to India the surely the Russians may want to expand their client portfolio too. In international relatioships there are no perm friends or enemies. If India is not in the Market for Russian then maybe Pakistan will be. It is important both countries readjust and be friends rather than live through the past.


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## Cool_Soldier

When are we expecting J10B in PAF color?

Enjoy some images of J 10 B.....
http://www.defencedot.com/j10b-chinese-fighter-jet-in-image/

http://www.defencedot.com/j10b-chinese-fighter-jet-in-image/


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## Cool_Soldier

J10B Chinese Fighter Jet in Image GalleryJ10B Chinese Fighter Jet in Image Gallery


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## Pinnacle

Cool_Soldier said:


> J10B Chinese Fighter Jet in Image GalleryJ10B Chinese Fighter Jet in Image Gallery


These images are of j-10A.... !!!


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## That Guy

Liquidmetal said:


> You are right, the Russian's have long memories and will not want to sell to a country that had become a stuck bone in their throats when they rolled their tanks into our ungrateful neighbour. However, the Russians would also do well to see how their cold war ally is now sitting in the laps of the US and Europe, if the US can sell to India the surely the Russians may want to expand their client portfolio too. In international relatioships there are no perm friends or enemies. If India is not in the Market for Russian then maybe Pakistan will be. It is important both countries readjust and be friends rather than live through the past.



It's already happening, Putin's policy of "let bygones be bygones". He's been pushing for stronger relations with Pakistan, ever since the Indians started to move towards US and EU defense markets.

It'll take a long time, but things are warming up, especially since the Russian air chief came to Pakistan for the first time in history, toured the JF-17 production factory and even sat in said jet.


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## Bamboo Castle

Cool_Soldier said:


> When are we expecting J10B in PAF color?
> 
> Enjoy some images of J 10 B.....
> J10B Chinese Fighter Jet in Image Gallery
> 
> J10B Chinese Fighter Jet in Image Gallery



The Chinese J-10B fighter is not yet equipped with the domestic WS-10A engine suggests the sales to Pakistan may have to wait for quite a long time.


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## sancho

Munir said:


> Russia needs to export it goods through Pakistan. The whole Afghanistan war was never about Afghanistan but getting Pakistani coast. They still need it. The Russians walk a fine line not to make the Indians very unhappy but with Russia getting richer that situation is changing. *Back then they needed an idiot to fund Su30-MK*... Now they will sell PAKFA and smile... Indians can not run away. Hence RD33...



You mean, China right? Since they got the first Su 30MK varients. For the rest, don't fool yourself with your theories, the fact that Russia and India had never a closer defence relation that today alone show where Russia is looking at. Not to mention the reports here that it's PAF, that don't want the Russian engines and prefer a Chinese alternative, if available.


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## BATMAN

^^ PAF is very happy with RD-93 from beginning and they say it openly.

Infact, RD93/33 got a new life after Pakistan appreciated it and used it.. otherwise the maintainence record of RD33 with IAF was brought bad name to a fine product.

India used to blame Russian design, when ever their mig used to crash, while real reason was poor technical staff in IAF.



Bamboo Castle said:


> The Chinese J-10B fighter is not yet equipped with the domestic WS-10A engine suggests the sales to Pakistan may have to wait for quite a long time.



PAF is not getting J10 because of its price vs value JF-17 offer.

I doubt, PAF will ever go for J10.

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## sancho

BATMAN said:


> ^^ PAF is very happy with RD-93 from beginning and they say it openly.
> 
> Infact, RD93/33 got a new life after Pakistan appreciated it and used it.. otherwise the maintainence record of RD33 with IAF was brought bad name to a fine product.
> 
> India used to blame Russian design, when ever their mig used to crash, while real reason was poor technical staff in IAF.



You do know that the RD33 is used only in the Mig 29s right? The engine issues are with the Mig 27 and earlier Mig 23s.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> You do know that the RD33 is used only in the Mig 29s right? The engine issues are with the Mig 27 and earlier Mig 23s.



I believe there were issues with the early rd-33 for the IAF.



> The Comptroller and Auditor General of India published on 31March1993 the results of an in depth study on the operational performance and reliability of the MiG-29 aircraft. This study was first reported in Aviation Week & Space Technology during 25July1994 (pg.49), and has been obtained by author from Mr. Pushpindar Singh, of the Society of Aerospace Studies, New Delhi.
> 
> ...
> There were extensive problems encountered in operational and maintenance due to the large number of pre-mature failures of engines, components, and systems. Of the total of 189 engines in service, 139 engines (74%) failed pre-maturely and had been withdraw from service by July 1992, thus effectively shutting down operations. 62 of these engines had not even accomplished 50% of their 300 hours first overhaul point. Thus the desired serviceability showed a steadily decreasing trend.
> 
> Engineering reports mainly attribute RD-33 failures to design/material deficiencies causing discolored engine oil (8), cracks in the nozzle guide vanes (31), and surprisingly, foreign object damage (FOD). The eight material deficient engines (discolored oil) were repaired by the contractor under warrantee provisions, but the engines had to be recycled to the manufacturer. The thirty-one engines with cracks in their nozzle guide vanes were fixed in the field by contractor teams and adjustments were made to the entire engine fleet. But even though the incidents reduced the occurrences of the cracks, they continued. But the FOD situation is the most interesting, especially after the inlet FOD doors received world press coverage, but there were other concerns about production quality control that led to problems.



Fighter Aicraft, MiG-29/4


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## fatman17

BATMAN said:


> ^^ PAF is very happy with RD-93 from beginning and they say it openly.
> 
> Infact, RD93/33 got a new life after Pakistan appreciated it and used it.. otherwise the maintainence record of RD33 with IAF was brought bad name to a fine product.
> 
> India used to blame Russian design, when ever their mig used to crash, while real reason was poor technical staff in IAF.
> 
> 
> 
> PAF is not getting J10 because of its price vs value JF-17 offer.
> 
> *I doubt, PAF will ever go for J10*.



it will with chinese engine not the russian engine.

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## Bamboo Castle

fatman17 said:


> it will with chinese engine not the russian engine.



Well then, let the Chinese develop the engine first...


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## 2ndslip

I have heard and read that Pakistan is due to get 36 odd J-10s. Is this true?


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## BATMAN

Bamboo Castle said:


> Well then, let the Chinese develop the engine first...



Engine is ready but as long China is getting engines from Russia.. China will keep refining its own engine.

China will never produce engine, if it has similar performance as Russian engines, or unless Russia blocks supply.

China is not going to go in production only for Pakistan sake.


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## 2ndslip

so are we getting them or not bhai?


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## Storm Force

J10 is not arriving due to engine. Since jf17 is carries Russian engine...the problem is the same its about cost. Paf have no funds, you guys have been talking abt buying j10. For 7 years in this forum. It may also be that the paf have realised that their f16s are superior and China tech is not reliable or mature in war as the awsome f16. One thing for sure the chinease are ready to sell u guys have cold feet


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## Luftwaffe

2ndslip said:


> I have heard and read that Pakistan is due to get 36 odd J-10s. Is this true?



Not True...


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## ziaulislam

Luftwaffe said:


> Not True...


WE would only know whetehr its true or not in 2016


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## 2ndslip

Well that sucks.


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## king cobra

2ndslip said:


> Well that sucks.



and why ??? i know j-10 is good fighter...


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## 2ndslip

all this discussion over a fighter that PAF shall not have is a tad silly.


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## BATMAN

ziaulislam said:


> WE would only know whetehr its true or not in 2016



Still not true happening!

Anti Pakistan forces control Pakistani politicians and they are advised to block funds for defence production.

Zardari delivered first blow and next regime will deliver second blow.... J-10 cannot be with Pakistani as long pro Indian forces are ruling Pakistan.

At the same time Iran, India and Afghanistan are being armed by overt covert means.


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## 420canada

this has to be a sick joke J-10b is not going to be in PAF colors?!?!?


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## 2ndslip

BATMAN said:


> Still not true happening!
> 
> Anti Pakistan forces control Pakistani politicians and they are advised to block funds for defence production.
> 
> Zardari delivered first blow and next regime will deliver second blow.... J-10 cannot be with Pakistani as long pro Indian forces are ruling Pakistan.
> 
> At the same time Iran, India and Afghanistan are being armed by overt covert means.



You have no evidence for this. I hate these conspiracy nuts. Pakistan made some bad decisions, got Islamist insurgency as a result. The Army runs Pakistan in many ways. No one has an once of proof that the MoF has denied funds for new stuff. If Pakistan doesnt get J-10's, it'll be a strategic or monetary reason, not because some politician blocked such a purchase.

It's feasible that PAF thinks there are more cost effective options, its possible the funds arent there. No leader in Pak - however crap, has denied the army funds when they have been available to give.

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## Storm Force

2nd Slip



> It's feasible that PAF thinks there are more cost effective options,
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...role-fighter-air-craft-443.html#ixzz2SuuzKgVY



THE ONLY CHEAPER fighter than J10 in the 4th generation era is the JF17

ALL other fighters are MORE EXPENSIVE.

UNLESS YOU MEAN no fighters MORE SAMS and awacs


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## BATMAN

2ndslip said:


> You have no evidence for this. I hate these conspiracy nuts. Pakistan made some bad decisions, got Islamist insurgency as a result. The Army runs Pakistan in many ways. No one has an once of proof that the MoF has denied funds for new stuff. If Pakistan doesnt get J-10's, it'll be a strategic or monetary reason, not because some politician blocked such a purchase.
> 
> It's feasible that PAF thinks there are more cost effective options, its possible the funds arent there. No leader in Pak - however crap, has denied the army funds when they have been available to give.



Exactly.. i hate these hater nuts who keep spewing baseless hate about army.. i do not even need to ask you about evidence because constitutional and practically army is controlled by Asif Ali Zardari... and he is openly begging the world to teach Pak army lesson and former ISI chief was humiliated and victimised by judiciary for collecting evidence of it.

Pakistan made mistake when BB transferred nuclear technology to Iran and India and AQ Khan and former army chief / president statements are on record.

It is also on record that Asif Ali Zardari blocked the development funds of JF-17 and it is a ground reality that Pakistan did not went ahead with J-10 due to cuts in defence budget by the regime of Asif Ali Zardari and rest is my analysis that next regime will deliver even bigger blow to defence establishment.


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## M_Saint

2ndslip said:


> You have no evidence for this. I hate these conspiracy nuts. Pakistan made some bad decisions, got Islamist insurgency as a result. The Army runs Pakistan in many ways. No one has an once of proof that the MoF has denied funds for new stuff. If Pakistan doesnt get J-10's, it'll be a strategic or monetary reason, not because some politician blocked such a purchase.
> 
> It's feasible that PAF thinks there are more cost effective options, its possible the funds arent there. No leader in Pak - however crap, has denied the army funds when they have been available to give.


2ndslip, BATMAN has commented 100% accurately on the post #6636, IMHO.There exists conspiracy theory but leveling every rational and logical call/suspicion as such is itself the biggest conspiracy to me. PAK MIL hasn't acquired any significant teeth during Zardari's rule but has been put to fight against Pashtuns that are historically Anti-Brahhamnic-Elitists and rooted Muslims. Every time, monetary excuse was brought then how on earth 100s of billions of Rupees were spent to kill FATAians? Zardari's becomming president through emotional black mail (Cashing on Benzir's murder and parliamentarian's 'yea' but not by direct vote of public) and occupying PPP's chairmanship illegally while in presidency were the biggest recipes of letting PAK being off guarded IMO.


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## BATMAN

Sorry, it is not relevant to thread but BB's regime was dismissed twice on corruption charges (reason dhula bhai) and now those who were not born in 90's have witnessed zardari regime.
Till today, zardari boast for lack of evidence.... while i simply stated facts. 
Actually, there are senior position holders on this forum who will spew baseless poison against army the moment some one from their sect. dies in daily explosions.


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## araz

BATMAN said:


> Sorry, it is not relevant to thread but BB's regime was dismissed twice on corruption charges (reason dhula bhai) and now those who were not born in 90's have witnessed zardari regime.
> Till today, zardari boast for lack of evidence.... while i simply stated facts.
> Actually, there are senior position holders on this forum who will spew baseless poison against army the moment some one from their sect. dies in daily explosions.


BM
The only problem is that the one God whom Zardari really loves is mai Laxmi.Now any buying od J10s would have had a fdw kickbacks involved.For Zardari it would have been another opporthnity to make money and he would not have let go.So there is more to theJ10 saga than money. the factors delaying decision in this regards are.
A)The lack of money. we know ws dont even have enough to pay the interest on the loan.

B) The lack of/maturity of WS10.Idont think AL31 FN is cleared for export to Pakistan.
C) The delay inMRCA contract is allowing us some breathing space which is being used to develop JFT.
D) It has been reported rhat J10B has had some unexpected delays. The reasons remain unclear.
E)The dilemma which PAF faces with regards to the cost benefit exercise of inducting J10 now a
or wait for J31which although possibly a decade awaycould be abetter bet andanswer to our neighbour's acqjisitiona
araz

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## Bamboo Castle

Storm Force said:


> J10 is not arriving due to engine. Since jf17 is carries Russian engine...the problem is the same its about cost. Paf have no funds, you guys have been talking abt buying j10. For 7 years in this forum. It may also be that the paf have realised that their f16s are superior and China tech is not reliable or mature in war as the awsome f16. One thing for sure the chinease are ready to sell u guys have cold feet



Why would Pakistan govt. go for a platform that is of same generation (JF-17 is a 4th generation fighter air craft and so is J-10). It is obvious that PAF is not getting any J-10. 

If you go by capabilities of J-10 and JF-17, you would find they are not very different. PAF has a platform they have developed with Chinese help and it did mature (unlike Tejas). Now, your govt. would go for upgrading the platform to better suit your requirements. They would go for further modification like increase number of hardpoints, find better radar, find minor modification of the surface to improve performance, install better aviation suit, better navigation equipment, find or make (maybe jointly with China or some other country) a own engine etc. 

Comparison between J-10 vs JF-17

*Useful load*
6,000 kg vs *3000 kg*

*Thrust with afterburner*
125 kN vs *84.5 kN*

*Maximum speed*
Mach 2.2 vs *Mach 1.6*

*Combat radius*
1,600 km vs *1,352 km*

*Service ceiling*
18,000 m vs *16,920 m*

*Thrust/weight*
1.024 vs *.95*

*Guns*
1× 23mm twin-barrel cannon vs *1× 23mm twin-barrel cannon*

*Hard-point*
11 with 6,000 kg vs *7 with 3,629 kg* 

*Air-to-air Missiles*
PL-8, PL-9, PL-11, PL-12 vs *AIM-9, PL-5, PL-9, PL-12*

*Air-to-surface Missiles*
PJ-9, YJ-9K vs *MAR-1, C-802A, Ra'ad ALCM*

*Bombs (guided)*
LT-2, LS-6 vs *GBU-10, GBU-12, LT-2, H-2, H-4, LS-6*

See for yourself and find yourself the better option. What would you say, upgrade your existing 4th generation platform or go for a new 4th generation platform with similar capabilities? ask youself.

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## BATMAN

^^ This is the main reason that J-10 will never make it to PAF.

Adding another paltform without additional value is not wise thingy.

P.S.: The data on JF-17 is outdated.

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## Storm Force

YOUR comparison below provrES THAT J10 beats the JFT THUNDER in ev ery single department 


Comparison between J-10 vs JF-17

Useful load
6,000 kg vs 3000 kg

Thrust with afterburner
125 kN vs 84.5 kN

Maximum speed
Mach 2.2 vs Mach 1.6

Combat radius
1,600 km vs 1,352 km

Service ceiling
18,000 m vs 16,920 m

Thrust/weight
1.024 vs .95

Guns
1× 23mm twin-barrel cannon vs 1× 23mm twin-barrel cannon

Hard-point
11 with 6,000 kg vs 7 with 3,629 kg 

Air-to-air Missiles
PL-8, PL-9, PL-11, PL-12 vs AIM-9, PL-5, PL-9, PL-12

Air-to-surface Missiles
PJ-9, YJ-9K vs MAR-1, C-802A, Ra'ad ALCM

Bombs (guided)
LT-2, LS-6 vs GBU-10, GBU-12, LT-2, H-2, H-4, LS-6



Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...role-fighter-air-craft-443.html#ixzz2T4qefUMT

THE ONLY AREA where JFT has the dge is the cost ie Half that of the J10

Personally i feel THE PAF will not acquire J10 because it adds no new western weapons AND i feel the PAF know that F16/52 is a better warplane TODAY then both J10 & defo JFT. 

I thik the PAF will try for more F16s id relations with USA can improve 

for me a WISE CHOICE (if you discount sanctions threats)


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## Bamboo Castle

Storm Force said:


> YOUR comparison below provrES THAT J10 beats the JFT THUNDER in ev ery single department
> 
> 
> Comparison between J-10 vs JF-17
> 
> Useful load
> 6,000 kg vs 3000 kg
> 
> Thrust with afterburner
> 125 kN vs 84.5 kN
> 
> Maximum speed
> Mach 2.2 vs Mach 1.6
> 
> Combat radius
> 1,600 km vs 1,352 km
> 
> Service ceiling
> 18,000 m vs 16,920 m
> 
> Thrust/weight
> 1.024 vs .95
> 
> Guns
> 1× 23mm twin-barrel cannon vs 1× 23mm twin-barrel cannon
> 
> Hard-point
> 11 with 6,000 kg vs 7 with 3,629 kg
> 
> Air-to-air Missiles
> PL-8, PL-9, PL-11, PL-12 vs AIM-9, PL-5, PL-9, PL-12
> 
> Air-to-surface Missiles
> PJ-9, YJ-9K vs MAR-1, C-802A, Ra'ad ALCM
> 
> Bombs (guided)
> LT-2, LS-6 vs GBU-10, GBU-12, LT-2, H-2, H-4, LS-6
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...role-fighter-air-craft-443.html#ixzz2T4qefUMT
> 
> THE ONLY AREA where JFT has the dge is the cost ie Half that of the J10
> 
> Personally i feel THE PAF will not acquire J10 because it adds no new western weapons AND i feel the PAF know that F16/52 is a better warplane TODAY then both J10 & defo JFT.
> 
> I thik the PAF will try for more F16s id relations with USA can improve
> 
> for me a WISE CHOICE (if you discount sanctions threats)



Although, what you are saying are very much right, that does not suppress the opportunity for upgrading PAF own JF-17. JF-17 is at its early life and in general sense an aircraft may have 20 to 40 years of flight life and within this huge lifespan they always go for midlife upgrades. Also, when you have a fighter of your own, you would find upgrades when you give it time. 

F-16 program started with F-16 Block 1. and has evolved so many times. Following is how F-16 evolved in time.


*F-16A/B: (Basic version)*





1. Equipped with the Westinghouse AN/APG-66 pulse-doppler radar
2. Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200 turbofan


*F-16A/B Block 15 upgrades:*

1. Larger horizontal stabilizers (to counter the additional weight of the new hardpoints, the horizontal stabilizers were enlarged by 30%)
2. Addition of two hardpoints to the chin inlet
3. An improved AN/APG-66(V)2 radar
4. Increased capacity for the underwing hardpoints
5. Have Quick II secure UHF radio


*F-16A/B Block 20: *

1. Improved AN/APG-66(V)3 radar with added CW mode 
2. AIM-7M Sparrow missiles
3. AIM-120 AMRAAM
4. AGM-84 Harpoon missiles
5. LANTIRN navigation and targeting pod
6. The computers are significantly improved
7. Color MFD


*F-16C Block 25: *

1. Westinghouse AN/APG-68 radar 
2. Improved precision night-attack capability
3. Substantial improvement in cockpit avionics
4. Improved fire-control and stores management computers
5. Up-Front Controls (UFC) integrated data control panel, data-transfer equipment,
6. MFD displays
7. Radar altimeter
8. Upgraded Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220E engine


*F-16 Block 30:*

1. The General Electric F110-GE-100 engine
2. AGM-45 Shrike
3. AGM-88 HARM
4. AIM-120 missiles
5. Improved inertial guidance systems
6. Improved electronic warfare suite (AN/ALQ-213)
7. Inertial Navigation Unit (INU) was first changed to a ring laser gyro
8. Global Positioning System (GPS) receiver
9. Inertial Navigation System (INS)
10. Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM)
11. GPS-aided munitions


*F-16C/D Block 40/42:*

1. Improved all-day/all-weather strike variant
2. Strengthened and lengthened undercarriage for LANTIRN pods
3. Improved radar and GPS receiver
4. Increased the weapon JDAM, AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW), Wind-Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD) and the (Enhanced) EGBU-27 Paveway "bunker-buster"
5. Aviator's Night Vision Imaging System (ANVIS)


*F-16C Block 52:*

1. Improved GPS/INS
2. Block 50 are powered by the F110-GE-129 while the Block 52 jets use the F100-PW-229


*F-16C/D Block 50/52 Plus:*

1. Conformal fuel tanks (CFTs)
2. Dorsal spine compartment
3. APG-68(V9) radar
4. On-Board Oxygen Generation (OBOGS) system and a JHMCS helmet


*F-16E/F:*




1. Improved radar and avionics and conformal fuel tanks
2. Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar
3. Capability to simultaneously track and destroy ground and air threats
4. General Electric F110-GE-132 engine
5. The Electronic Warfare system includes the Northrop Grumman Falcon Edge Integrated Electronic Warfare Suite RWR together with the AN/ALQ-165 Self-Protection Jammer
6. Falcon Edge, is capable of showing not only the bearing of any threat but also the range
7. The Block 60 allows the carriage of all Block 50/52-compatible weaponry
8 . AIM-132 Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile (ASRAAM)
9. AGM-84E Standoff Land Attack Missile (SLAM)
10. MIL-STD-1773 fiber-optic data bus
11. 1,000 times increase in data-handling capability
12. Built in FLIR/laser targeting system


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## sancho

Storm Force said:


> THE ONLY AREA where JFT has the dge is the cost ie Half that of the J10



The TWR is better as well, since these specs are not completely accurate, but the issue is not if JF17 can be equal or superior to J10, but how close it could be at lower procurement and operational costs and if it's better for PAF to use the available funds to save it for NG fighters, instead of another 4th to 4.5th fighter?
A broader base of JF 17 in higher numbers and still "good enough" capabilities close to J10 with J31 in the long run will give PAF clearly the better mix for the future.


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## Storm Force

Bamboo

USA has unlimited TECHNOLOGY and unlimted CASH to upgrade their F16 over 30 years

More importantly IT WAS A MASSIVE GLOBAL SUCCESS.

The investment in the F16 was OF super power porpotions.IE WORLD CLASS 

the JFT will never the see the WORLD class investment that F16 had over 3 decades. ITS financially NOT POSSIBLE

moreover THE F16 TWR size & span ARE IN J10 league ie meduim weight fighter.

THE CHINEASE WILL SPEND BIG IMPRIOVING J10 as its THEIR version OF THE F16

who WILL give the JFT the same investment ?????


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## sancho

zee_MOS-15w said:


> pakistan need j/10 to Replace its old F-16 which it bought in 80s SO not buying J/10 is out of Question



Not really, these F16 are going through MLU right now and will remain in service for another decades at least, which would be the perfect timeframe to replace them with a NG fighter like J31. The J10s would be inducted around 2015 and would be mainly an addition to the JF 17 on the upper side, but with similar radar, avionics, weapons and for much higher costs.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> Not really, these F16 are going through MLU right now and will remain in service for another decades at least, which would be the perfect timeframe to replace them with a NG fighter like J31. *The J10s would be inducted around 2015 and would be mainly an addition to the JF 17 on the upper si*de, but with similar radar, avionics, weapons and for much higher costs.



That may not happen. Primarily due to financial reasons but this has had the unexpected good in the ASR being revised and greater percentage of 5th gen aircraft within the PAF orbat.

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## Bamboo Castle

Storm Force said:


> Bamboo
> 
> USA has unlimited TECHNOLOGY and unlimted CASH to upgrade their F16 over 30 years
> 
> More importantly IT WAS A MASSIVE GLOBAL SUCCESS.
> 
> The investment in the F16 was OF super power porpotions.IE WORLD CLASS
> 
> the JFT will never the see the WORLD class investment that F16 had over 3 decades. ITS financially NOT POSSIBLE
> 
> moreover THE F16 TWR size & span ARE IN J10 league ie meduim weight fighter.
> 
> THE CHINEASE WILL SPEND BIG IMPRIOVING J10 as its THEIR version OF THE F16
> 
> who WILL give the JFT the same investment ?????



True, as you say, USA has unlimited cash, tech and sales volume to add up to their improvements. I agree with you there completely. And Pakistan may never see that kind of funding. However, when, Pakistan has an alternative aircraft that is loosely defined like J-10/F-16, Pakistan govt. might invest some even when they are in bad financial state considering the potential in it. Your own production line means, you do not have to pay millions of dollar to some country for improvements rather you can develop the same in much cheaper price tag. Example (although very lame example), Bangladesh air force used to buy the ejection handle of the L-39ZA for Tk. 2.5 lac ($3,400) each. So, BAF engineers started to make those locally and each handle is made for TK. 1,000 ($14). Though a very lame example, but it explains how convenient the price can be for modifications and upgrade programs.


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## Bamboo Castle

zee_MOS-15w said:


> pakistan need j/10 to Replace its old F-16 which it bought in 80s SO not buying J/10 is out of Question and pakistan needs JFT to replace Mirages/F-7,
> j/10 have a lot of Capabilites over Jft
> 
> First it can carry more
> second it can fly higher
> thrid its better in combat compared with F-16 and j-11s
> fourth its sanction free
> fifth with its development will come more Upgrades for Jft as they both Share alot f
> and after all the f16s are old paf will move to get more j-10 because usa wont sell F-35 as india is interested in it and thats the only Plane usa will use after it retires all its f-16 and f-15
> 
> and when India will Get a Stealth Jet
> 
> Paf will also Get a Stealth JEt with J/10 and JFt in its fleet ( obiviously both of them would be heavily Upgraded)



Pakistan govt. if they think logically, would never go for J-10. To replace PAF Mirage-3/5, F-7 and old F-16, JF-17 is good enough. 150 JF-17 would do the job better than Mirage-3/5, F-7 and old F-16 can do. But PAF even go further with JF-17 platform. JF-17 is a cheaper alternative to slightly upgraded same generation fighter with double price J-10. 

PAF and Pakistan govt. are not fools. They will consider a future procurement more carefully considering they have a platform of their own. I believe, the next procurement PAF will make is Shenyang J-31. PAF in future shall be armed with 48 to 72 Shenyang J-31 and 150 to 240 JF-17 and 18 to 24 F-16.


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## fatman17

48 to 72 Shenyang J-31 and 150 to 240 JF-17 and 18 to 24 F-16

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...role-fighter-air-craft-444.html#ixzz2TAawVsyw

dosnt add up to 380-400 combat aircraft. J-10/FC-20 will see light of day around 2015-16 in PAF livery.

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## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> 48 to 72 Shenyang J-31 and 150 to 240 JF-17 and 18 to 24 F-16
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...role-fighter-air-craft-444.html#ixzz2TAawVsyw
> 
> dosnt add up to 380-400 combat aircraft. J-10/FC-20 will see light of day around 2015-16 in PAF livery.



During a recent discussion with someone from PAF, he also said the same that J-10 will get inducted in due course of time, and said the same which someone added here, that its induction is related to something from across the border meaning MMRCA, that is why no hurry is being shown, priority is for now JF-17s & AEW&Cs, J-10 will get priority only if & when induction of Rafale gets started and PAF is still hopeful to get used F-16s, upgrade them and use this cheap option as a stop gap measure or should i say keep the balance, thus it still seems a 50/50 case.

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## Munir

Now here another source telling that J10 is related to whether India gets MMRCA... It is funny though that some posters start arguing if someone else states the same but not being mod or telling that PAF told... I hope those posters start learning.

Those used F16's are ex NLAF/BAF in Jordan service or maybe Norway... So keep you ears open...

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## sancho

Oscar said:


> That may not happen. Primarily due to financial reasons but this has had the unexpected good in the ASR being revised and greater percentage of 5th gen aircraft within the PAF orbat.



The problem is, that the China has the same problems with their engines to get them to 5th gen capabilities, which is why Russian engines remain so important for them. So unless that issue will be resolved, PAF might face the same problem with J31.


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## Mitro

Jf-17 And J-31 have same engine i.e Rd-93 No problem they have already got the clearance from Russian.



sancho said:


> The problem is, that the China has the same problems with their engines to get them to 5th gen capabilities, which is why Russian engines remain so important for them. So unless that issue will be resolved, PAF might face the same problem with J31.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> The problem is, that the China has the same problems with their engines to get them to 5th gen capabilities, which is why Russian engines remain so important for them. So unless that issue will be resolved, PAF might face the same problem with J31.



I would not stress too much about the Chinese and Russian engines.. or the same getting to Pakistan.
Moreover, there a lot more going in the Ivchenko Factory in the Ukraine at the moment.

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## sancho

Czar786 said:


> Jf-17 And J-31 have same engine i.e Rd-93 No problem they have already got the clearance from Russian.



Which PAF don't want in later blocks and logically not in a J31, they prefer Chinese counterparts, if they are technically as capable and mature, which they aren't so far.



Oscar said:


> Moreover, there a lot more going in the Ivchenko Factory in the Ukraine at the moment.



For Pakistan or for China?


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## Nishan_101

I am sure that PAC and CAC might rather going to produce a 5th Generation together and if needed then PAC might going to license produce about 70+ J-31 at home. INSHA ALLAH.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> For Pakistan or for China?



For a Chinese project that Pakistan may very well be a customer of.. and this is old news.

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## That Guy

Nishan_101 said:


> I am sure that PAC and CAC might rather going to produce a 5th Generation together and if needed then PAC might going to license produce about 70+ J-31 at home. INSHA ALLAH.



Probably not, I know that PAC and CAC are in pre-production stages for a projected called J-2X, but it's either rumored to be a brand new 4.5 gen with the characteristics of a 5th gen, or a stealth variant of the JF-17.


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> For a Chinese project that Pakistan may very well be a customer of.. and this is old news.



Ok, for a moment I though Pakistan would have own engine developments with the Ukraine.


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## Mitro

I read some where the PAF is very Happy with Rd-93 and they are going to use it till chinese engine mature .But i think they want russian to improve the Klimov RD-93 to RD-33MK Standard.

Regarding the RD-93, which China mainly uses to power the JF-17 (FC-1) fighter, Kornev said that Russia has completed deliveries of 100 of the engine under a framework agreement for 500. Negotiations on the next batch are ongoing. All juridical formalities regarding new sales are agreed upon; our negotiations are purely about commercial aspects, including price

Russian Officials Reveal J-31 Engine and Describe Sales to China | Aviation International News



sancho said:


> Which PAF don't want in later blocks and logically not in a J31, they prefer Chinese counterparts, if they are technically as capable and mature, which they aren't so far.
> 
> 
> 
> For Pakistan or for China?


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## Xracer

any news about Chengdu: J-10 when its to coming to PAKISTAN or is the Deal Scrapped??????? any one Kindly Put light on this matter


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## fatman17

admin both JF-17 and J-10 threads have been hijacked by discussions not related to these. might as well just have one section on the forum and discuss everything under the fkkg sun.....why bother

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## That Guy

fatman17 said:


> admin both JF-17 and J-10 threads have been hijacked by discussions not related to these. might as well just have one section on the forum and discuss everything under the fkkg sun.....why bother



haha, I don't think it's an intentional hijacking, it's more like a...follow up. One thing leads to another and the subject changes.


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## fatman17

*Uncertainty Surrounds Pakistan Leader's Stance on Taliban, Military*

May. 22, 2013

By USMAN ANSARI


ISLAMABAD &#8212; The election of Nawaz Sharif as Pakistani prime minister may bode well for a wider détente with India, but dealing with the Taliban insurgency and relations with the military are uncertain, analysts said.

Salma Malik, an assistant professor in the Department of Defence & Strategic Studies at Quaid-i-Azam University here, said that before the election, Sharif had been &#8220;courting radical elements, hosting them in Lahore,&#8221; and appearing to adopt a rightist ideology.

But the outlook for Sharif, who was overthrown in a 1999 military coup, is not so simple, Malik said.

&#8220;We must be reminded of the fact that he&#8217;s the same leader who had at one time launched an anti-militancy crackdown, established [toothless] anti-terrorist courts and faced bomb attacks as a result, which claimed the lives of many of his allies, kith and kin,&#8221; she said.

Nevertheless, she said, &#8220;staying in opposition has made it very easy for [Sharif] to flirt with militants&#8221; for political expediency, &#8220;but how he will manage these elements once in power is anyone&#8217;s guess.&#8221;

While securing a bailout from the International Monetary Fund is a priority for Sharif, Malik said that improving the security situation in Pakistan &#8220;means either locking horns with militants or appeasing them,&#8221; which could go counter to the demands of military operations and US interests.

Sharif has said, most recently to the BBC, that he will facilitate the US withdrawal from Afghanistan, but dodged questions about maintaining pressure on the Taliban.

Great uncertainty remains regarding Afghanistan over the next 12 months, Malik said, when Sharif will have to handle the &#8220;massive readjustments at all levels, internally and externally.&#8221;

*Much, therefore, depends on his relationship with Pakistan&#8217;s military, which hopes economic recovery will resuscitate its stalled modernization efforts*.

Analyst Haris Khan, of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, said that even in the unlikely event of an economic boost, &#8220;it will take about two years before one can see sustainable positive revenues.&#8221;

*Nevertheless, he said the military will want to see progress with the J-10B/FC-20 fighter jet, submarines and warships, and defense cooperation with China, Turkey and Ukraine*.

*The April visit of Lt. Gen. Viktor Nikolayevich Bondarev, commander in chief of the Russian Air Force, could indicate a Russian jet engine deal to power the FC-20*.

*However, the &#8220;Chinese want some type of assurance that if they give Pakistan some soft loans, [Pakistan] can provide some type of collateral for these loans,&#8221; Khan said. &#8220;The first batch of 36 FC-20/J-10B was estimated at [US] $1.9 billion plus.&#8221;*

Though economic recovery is widely expected, Brian Cloughley, a former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad, said Sharif is known to harbor grudges, and his relationship with the military is not expected to be comfortable.

Cloughley, however, said he is more optimistic regarding reduced tensions with archrival India.

&#8220;There is still a possibility of rapprochement with India,&#8221; he said.



there you go folks!!! confirmation why J-10/FC-20 is not sold to PAF.....its the engine....i've been pushing this point and now some confirmation.

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## sancho

fatman17 said:


> However, the &#8220;Chinese want some type of assurance that if they give Pakistan some soft loans, [Pakistan] can provide some type of collateral for these loans,&#8221; Khan said. &#8220;*The first batch of 36 FC-20/J-10B was estimated at [US] $1.9 billion plus.&#8221;*



This is also interesting, since it puts the unit cost of J10B around $52 millions. Pretty cheap for a 4.5 gen fighter, but pretty expensive compared to an upgraded JF17 right?


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> *Uncertainty Surrounds Pakistan Leader's Stance on Taliban, Military*
> 
> May. 22, 2013
> 
> By USMAN ANSARI
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD &#8212; The election of Nawaz Sharif as Pakistani prime minister may bode well for a wider détente with India, but dealing with the Taliban insurgency and relations with the military are uncertain, analysts said.
> 
> Salma Malik, an assistant professor in the Department of Defence & Strategic Studies at Quaid-i-Azam University here, said that before the election, Sharif had been &#8220;courting radical elements, hosting them in Lahore,&#8221; and appearing to adopt a rightist ideology.
> 
> But the outlook for Sharif, who was overthrown in a 1999 military coup, is not so simple, Malik said.
> 
> &#8220;We must be reminded of the fact that he&#8217;s the same leader who had at one time launched an anti-militancy crackdown, established [toothless] anti-terrorist courts and faced bomb attacks as a result, which claimed the lives of many of his allies, kith and kin,&#8221; she said.
> 
> Nevertheless, she said, &#8220;staying in opposition has made it very easy for [Sharif] to flirt with militants&#8221; for political expediency, &#8220;but how he will manage these elements once in power is anyone&#8217;s guess.&#8221;
> 
> While securing a bailout from the International Monetary Fund is a priority for Sharif, Malik said that improving the security situation in Pakistan &#8220;means either locking horns with militants or appeasing them,&#8221; which could go counter to the demands of military operations and US interests.
> 
> Sharif has said, most recently to the BBC, that he will facilitate the US withdrawal from Afghanistan, but dodged questions about maintaining pressure on the Taliban.
> 
> Great uncertainty remains regarding Afghanistan over the next 12 months, Malik said, when Sharif will have to handle the &#8220;massive readjustments at all levels, internally and externally.&#8221;
> 
> *Much, therefore, depends on his relationship with Pakistan&#8217;s military, which hopes economic recovery will resuscitate its stalled modernization efforts*.
> 
> Analyst Haris Khan, of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, said that even in the unlikely event of an economic boost, &#8220;it will take about two years before one can see sustainable positive revenues.&#8221;
> 
> *Nevertheless, he said the military will want to see progress with the J-10B/FC-20 fighter jet, submarines and warships, and defense cooperation with China, Turkey and Ukraine*.
> 
> *The April visit of Lt. Gen. Viktor Nikolayevich Bondarev, commander in chief of the Russian Air Force, could indicate a Russian jet engine deal to power the FC-20*.
> 
> *However, the &#8220;Chinese want some type of assurance that if they give Pakistan some soft loans, [Pakistan] can provide some type of collateral for these loans,&#8221; Khan said. &#8220;The first batch of 36 FC-20/J-10B was estimated at [US] $1.9 billion plus.&#8221;*
> 
> Though economic recovery is widely expected, Brian Cloughley, a former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad, said Sharif is known to harbor grudges, and his relationship with the military is not expected to be comfortable.
> 
> Cloughley, however, said he is more optimistic regarding reduced tensions with archrival India.
> 
> &#8220;There is still a possibility of rapprochement with India,&#8221; he said.
> 
> 
> 
> there you go folks!!! confirmation why J-10/FC-20 is not sold to PAF.....its the engine....i've been pushing this point and now some confirmation.



Aren't these guys from the pakdef website?

Everyone on this forum were also saying about the engine, this confirmation was from other forum members of another forum. Don't worry sir jee, we believe you!


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## araz

sancho said:


> This is also interesting, since it puts the unit cost of J10B around $52 millions. Pretty cheap for a 4.5 gen fighter, but pretty expensive compared to an upgraded JF17 right?



This is the cost of establishement of the whole infrastructure for the planes. Who said newer platforms are not expensive. This may have been one of the prime reasons PAF is delaying and procrastinating about the FC20. The unit cost may well be low. I still think the FC20 will only come to PAF with a chinese engine. We have not yet escaped the clutches of the US and to fall into the clutches of the red Bear would not be a wise move. I dont think the Russians would be any less scrupulous than the USA. 
Araz


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## Donatello

sancho said:


> This is also interesting, since it puts the unit cost of J10B around $52 millions. Pretty cheap for a 4.5 gen fighter, but pretty expensive compared to an upgraded JF17 right?





The initial production always costs more. As the product is finalized and produced in larger numbers the cost automatically comes down due to economies of scale. 52Million is actually very expensive.


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## sancho

araz said:


> This is the cost of establishement of the whole infrastructure for the planes. Who said newer platforms are not expensive.



Of course they are more expensive, but still you might be able to get 1.5 or even 2 x JF17 block 2 or 3 for a single J10B with similar techs and weapons. Do you think that would be worth it, not to mention that the operational costs for PAF would be higher too?


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## farhan_9909

due to the improving relations between russia and pak..we may indeed see re export license of j-10b with al 31 to china for pakistan

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## cloud_digger

sancho said:


> Of course they are more expensive, but still you might be able to get 1.5 or even 2 x JF17 block 2 or 3 for a single J10B with similar techs and weapons. Do you think that would be worth it, *not to mention that the operational costs for PAF would be higher too?*



That is a contradictory statement with in the context of your post. If PAF goes for advanced blocks of JFT instead of J10, they would still have to buy more numbers of JFT to compensate for the fact that JFT is a low end fighter but the J10 is a high end fighter. Like you said, they will get a lot more number of JFT for the same amount of money compared to J10. Say 50 J10s cost the same as 80 JFT (just throwing numbers here), will the operation cost of 50 J10 be more than 80 JFT? Somehow I think not.


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## That Guy

cloud_digger said:


> That is a contradictory statement with in the context of your post. If PAF goes for advanced blocks of JFT instead of J10, they would still have to buy more numbers of JFT to compensate for the fact that JFT is a low end fighter but the J10 is a high end fighter. Like you said, they will get a lot more number of JFT for the same amount of money compared to J10. Say 50 J10s cost the same as 80 JFT (just throwing numbers here), will the operation cost of 50 J10 be more than 80 JFT? Somehow I think not.



Considering maintenance costs would be higher for the J10, as it is a higher quality product, I think 50 J10s would cost more than 80 JF-17s. One could argue that proliferation of tech and spare parts could lower long run costs, but that is no guarantee, as inflation is not the same as proliferation.


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## AUSTERLITZ

If pakistan buys j-10 its top priority must be AESA radar for BVR and for WVR an HMS/High off boresight wvr missile like r-73 combo.Without these 2 things coming with it,it will be at a disadvantage against IAF frontline fighters that will have AESA like su-30 mki with zhuk aesa and rafale with its own aesa,and most IAF aircraft have hms/r-73/python combo.
If they can get these 2 features then it can be equalizer if they buy around 150.
Staelth won't be a game breaker in the subcontinent till a decade from now.


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## sancho

cloud_digger said:


> That is a contradictory statement with in the context of your post. If PAF goes for advanced blocks of JFT instead of J10, they would still have to buy more numbers of JFT to compensate for the fact that JFT is a low end fighter but the J10 is a high end fighter. Like you said, they will get a lot more number of JFT for the same amount of money compared to J10. Say 50 J10s cost the same as 80 JFT (just throwing numbers here), will the operation cost of 50 J10 be more than 80 JFT? Somehow I think not.



It isn't because the techs, weapons and carrying capabilities are similar. The difference is mainly the design and some additional advantages, which makes the operational difference far less than the cost difference.
Besides the part that you marked was about operational costs, which are higher for a medium class J10B, than for a light class JFT, or because PAF need to procure a different engine.


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## cloud_digger

That Guy said:


> Considering maintenance costs would be higher for the J10, as it is a higher quality product, I think 50 J10s would cost more than 80 JF-17s. One could argue that proliferation of tech and spare parts could lower long run costs, but that is no guarantee, as inflation is not the same as proliferation.



I guess you have a point there, 80 JFT vs 50 J10 means, while there are more JFT to maintain, the tech and spare parts proliferation is also higher, which in turn brings down maintenance costs. But I some how feel it will not bring down so low as to be lower than the maintenance costs of 50 J10. 

Also, another plus for lower number of J10 instead of higher number of JFT (in my opinion) is that the J10 can perform a more effective strike role (its useful load is almost twice that of JFT). It seems both have an almost similar internal fuel capacity (slight advantage to J10?), but a higher payload means J10 has a clear advantage. Granted you can increase the the JFT range with external fuel tanks, but that would mean lesser munitions. Similarly, J10 can take on external fuel tanks while still be able to have a decent strike/defence munitions package.

All in all, in my opinion, J10 is the aircraft to go for, not more JFT, atleast not more JFT at the expence of J10.


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## araz

sancho said:


> Of course they are more expensive, but still you might be able to get 1.5 or even 2 x JF17 block 2 or 3 for a single J10B with similar techs and weapons. Do you think that would be worth it, not to mention that the operational costs for PAF would be higher too?



Whereas the reduction in platforms may have its own economic and strategic sense, unifying it down to one platform might not be such a good idea. Remember JFT is a small plane and eventually its size will determine what you can put on it. You will need something more than just JFT for the higher end of the hi lo combo. PAFs sense of insecurity with US platforms is now becoming more and more apparent. So we will need another platform. What is not clear is which one. If IAF inducts rafale soon along with M2K upgrade and upgraded SUs and Pakfa, PAF s response may well be to ditch J10 and go for J31. If there is cooling of tensions and I hope there is, then we may well sit it out with some more f16s and wait it out for the J31. If any urgent situation arises and this is where things get murky there may appear an opening for j10B.This is how the chess board is panning out at the moment.
Araz

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## sancho

araz said:


> Whereas the reduction in platforms may have its own economic and strategic sense, unifying it down to one platform might not be such a good idea. Remember JFT is a small plane and eventually its size will determine what you can put on it. You will need something more than just JFT for the higher end of the hi lo combo. PAFs sense of insecurity with US platforms is now becoming more and more apparent. So we will need another platform. What is not clear is which one. If IAF inducts rafale soon along with M2K upgrade and upgraded SUs and Pakfa, PAF s response may well be to ditch J10 and go for J31. If there is cooling of tensions and I hope there is, then we may well sit it out with some more f16s and wait it out for the J31. If any urgent situation arises and this is where things get murky there may appear an opening for j10B.This is how the chess board is panning out at the moment.
> Araz



Not the size of the fighter decides what you can put on it, but the number of hardpoints and especially the wet/heavypoints! 
Since J10B disappointingly don't come with increased internal fuel, CFTs, or additional wingstations, most of the payload will be the same as on JF 17.
Both have 3 x wingstations and the inner once will be the heavy / wetstations. So be it with C802, Raad, or any stand off weapons, both fighters will be limited to a single centerline fuel tank only.
The fuselage stations of J10 are benefits only when a pod needs to be carried or for CAS with smaller bombers, but for all main weaponary, the load performance will be pretty much the same. 
Compare that to a JF17 / J31 combo! A twin engine, medium class fighter, with full internal fuel, if I'm not wrong 4 x wing stations + fully internal fuel + internal weapons + same engines as JF17 + STEALTH

J10 to counter MMRCA is just a populistic argument for the mass, but neither is MMRCA as a whole is aimed on Pakistan, nor will small numbers of J10B make any difference. J31 on the otherside is a game changer even in smaller numbers. The stealth advantage provides PAF with offensive capabilities, with credible loads and to longer ranges, nothing that J10B can offer.

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## Munir

I doubt they want any offensive capabilities. PAF is always defending. And if needed it will fight but never attacking as target...


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## Viper0011.

sancho said:


> Of course they are more expensive, but still you might be able to get 1.5 or even 2 x JF17 block 2 or 3 for a single J10B with similar techs and weapons. Do you think that would be worth it, not to mention that the operational costs for PAF would be higher too?



If the PAF wants to maintain higher cost and a more advanced jet...I'd say go for J-11. You get a bigger platform, ability to deal with a bigger threat or be used as a bomb truck in a defensive ground attack role. But J-10 will be limited in its ability. The bigger size can house a bigger range radar too and AESA at it.
So I'd say J-11 (50 for the air force - 20 for the Navy) with 300 JFT's BI & II and 100 JFT's BII and III (20 for the Navy also) with 60 F-16's all block 40 AND 40 J-31 (deployed in smaller squadrons across Pakistan for 'special missions' only) would make it a VERY credible air force for the next ten - fifteen years.


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## That Guy

orangzaib said:


> If the PAF wants to maintain higher cost and a more advanced jet...I'd say go for J-11. You get a bigger platform, ability to deal with a bigger threat or be used as a bomb truck in a defensive ground attack role. But J-10 will be limited in its ability. The bigger size can house a bigger range radar too and AESA at it.
> So I'd say J-11 (50 for the air force - 20 for the Navy) with 300 JFT's BI & II and 100 JFT's BII and III (20 for the Navy also) with 60 F-16's all block 40 AND 40 J-31 (deployed in smaller squadrons across Pakistan for 'special missions' only) would make it a VERY credible air force for the next ten - fifteen years.



Easier said than done. The Chinese won't give away the J-11 (Russia would object, as the J-11 is a copy of Russian Su-27), and Pakistan has no interest in it.


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## sancho

Munir said:


> I doubt they want any offensive capabilities. PAF is always defending. And if needed it will fight but never attacking as target...



Stealth offers you automatically offensive capabilities, especially for pre-emptive strikes, so that has nothing to do with PAFs policies, but with the capability of the fighter. And if I remember correctly, PAF has done strikes within India in earlier wars too, so the policy is not only defensive anyway. 



orangzaib said:


> If the PAF wants to maintain higher cost and a more advanced jet...I'd say go for J-11.



Besides that your wishlist is financially not feasable, J11s sales might be restricted and have the same limitations as J10 has compared to J31. It's a current gen fighter, not better than what IAF has and therefor by far not a game changer. Even if IAF might have FGFA by the time PAF gets J31, the latter will be superior to at least 70% of IAFs fleet, something that is not possible with J10s or J11s. So saving the money for the game changer in future makes more sense, than making China happy with more expensive Chinese fighter, with the same weapons and most of the same techs.


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## Viper0011.

sancho said:


> Besides that your wishlist is financially not feasable, J11s sales might be restricted and have the same limitations as J10 has compared to J31. It's a current gen fighter, not better than what IAF has and therefor by far not a game changer.



You didn't care to understand or even read my post carefully. 1: The "Wish list" as you call it is nothing more than half fixed Pakistani economy. Remember, if they hadn't conducted nuclear tests, they'd be a few numbers behind you (due to smaller population) but still one of the top 20 economies!! That's your Lehman Brothers, Goldman Sachs, etc's reports as of 1998. They were ready to use the talent of about 100 million young people by injecting a few hundred billions into Pakistan's economy. So....if their newly elected government does what it's supposed to do and the economy grows 7% in their last 3 years (first 2 years to fix what's broken, electricity, etc).....that'll be a 21% growth in the economy, which means, they can spend about 5 billion on weapons (or more) easily. No stress of any kind. Cash talks, bullshi$t walks!
Second, you are correct that the bigger J-11 doesn't offer anything that the Indians don't have. That wasn't my point, my point was.....does it 'equally' offer what India has? Or MORE than J-10? Answer is, yes!!! IT DOES offer a lot more than J-10. S0 50 J-10's (single engine, reduced weight, smaller frame) vs. 50 J-11's......twin turbine, very large weapons storage, much larger radar, etc, etc gives them a MUCH stronger punch. Hope you got it this time. Stealth remains a separate item and has nothing to do with J-10 or J-11.....stealth will need to be acquired without any doubt and to create parity with India even with less numbers.



That Guy said:


> Easier said than done. The Chinese won't give away the J-11 (Russia would object, as the J-11 is a copy of Russian Su-27), and Pakistan has no interest in it.



You sound desperate man. Try asking the Chinese or even the Britts or the Russians or the Americans with a growing economy and with a few billions to spend in hard cash.....ALL objections will fade away!! Grow your economy and become a large customer with whom everyone wants to do business with!

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## That Guy

orangzaib said:


> You sound desperate man. Try asking the Chinese or even the Britts or the Russians or the Americans with a growing economy and with a few billions to spend in hard cash.....ALL objections will fade away!! Grow your economy and become a large customer with whom everyone wants to do business with!



Not desperate at all, just passing on what I know of the PAF. The economy is one thing, and I acknowledge that it is pretty weak, but Pakistan has traditionally bought single engine fighters, and prefers to buy single engine fighters. Look at PAF's history, how many fighters can you name in the PAF that use twin engines? F-6, F-7 and what else....?


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## Viper0011.

That Guy said:


> Not desperate at all, just passing on what I know of the PAF. The economy is one thing, and I acknowledge that it is pretty weak, but Pakistan has traditionally bought single engine fighters, and prefers to buy single engine fighters. Look at PAF's history, how many fighters can you name in the PAF that use twin engines? F-6, F-7 and what else....?



Economy has always been the main thing. Due to which, a country like Pakistan can't afford to venture into more expensive to maintain jets, specifically the twin turbine ones. So if the economy if fixed and you guys grow your economy by 25% - 35% from where you are today and with a stable middle class and growing infrastructure, you can afford anything. That's just reality. if Malaysia wanted to, it can go and acquire 100 SU-30's or Rafales or the F-18's (depending upon who they like the most)....similarly, Turkey is another example. They actually BUILD F-16's and have been doing so for over two decades with a ton of other weapons.
So here's my two cents for you guys, quit being religion, party, cast and individual focused nation. Accept the new government, a new reality and go forward with democracy to create a new Pakistan. Get rid of terrorism and trust me, you'll be remembering this post 5-7 years from now thinking how right I was (or how wrong I was if you guys don't do what I am asking for). Affording 50-100 latest jets for any growing economy isn't that big of a deal


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## That Guy

orangzaib said:


> Economy has always been the main thing. Due to which, a country like Pakistan can't afford to venture into more expensive to maintain jets, specifically the twin turbine ones. So if the economy if fixed and you guys grow your economy by 25% - 35% from where you are today and with a stable middle class and growing infrastructure, you can afford anything. That's just reality. if Malaysia wanted to, it can go and acquire 100 SU-30's or Rafales or the F-18's (depending upon who they like the most)....similarly, Turkey is another example. They actually BUILD F-16's and have been doing so for over two decades with a ton of other weapons.
> So here's my two cents for you guys, quit being religion, party, cast and individual focused nation. Accept the new government, a new reality and go forward with democracy to create a new Pakistan. Get rid of terrorism and trust me, you'll be remembering this post 5-7 years from now thinking how right I was (or how wrong I was if you guys don't do what I am asking for). Affording 50-100 latest jets for any growing economy isn't that big of a deal



I don't think you actually read my comment, because you seem to be repeating your comment and ignoring my entire point.

Again, economy is one thing, but Pakistan wouldn't buy it even if it could. Otherwise, it would have bought the F-15 in the 80s back when Pakistan's economy was growing massively. It doesn't because it has no interest in twin engine air-crafts.

You also seem to think that your opinion is important and I can influence the entirety of Pakistan. Economic growth has nothing to do with the type of political system a nation has, Pakistan's massive growth under dictatorship proves that much.


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## sancho

orangzaib said:


> Second, you are correct that the bigger J-11 doesn't offer anything that the Indians don't have. That wasn't my point, my point was.....does it 'equally' offer what India has? Or MORE than J-10?



No, it doesn't offer what India has, because the J11 is technically inferior to MKI. In BVR and long range missions it has advantages over J10, in WVR and for more importantly from PAFs point of view from the cost-effectivity point, J10 is superior. 
However, since it's not available for exports and since none of them will be a game changer for PAF, saving the money for J31 is the only logical way to go.

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## Viper0011.

sancho said:


> No, it doesn't offer what India has, because the J11 is technically inferior to MKI. In BVR and long range missions it has advantages over J10, in WVR and for more importantly from PAFs point of view from the cost-effectivity point, J10 is superior.
> However, since it's not available for exports and since none of them will be a game changer for PAF, saving the money for J31 is the only logical way to go.



You guys keep repeating the SAME defensive speech the one I've seen above and many times on other posts. Only a blind person wouldn't know that J-11 would be better than J-10 and it's on par with the Super MKI if you include technologies used in J-16. Which Pakistan will get.
Also, let me be very straight here (unlike the Indian propaganda machine), if the Pakistanis wanted the J-11.....it WILL be made available. There is NO such thing as 'not available for export'. The executives will issue an executive decision to overwrite whatever policies they need to in case this becomes critical. Pakistan's main issue is the economy. Next, there is another option in about 5-8 years for the Pakistanis. The EFT....Saudia is becoming a partner in the manufacturing of that plane, meaning you'll see the tech transfer, and manufacturing to Saudia. Plus, it's investing billions in R&D in EFT program too. ALL on tech transfer based conditions. So, 5-8 or 10 years from now, Pakistan may be able to get EFT also. In fact, if they can grow their economy to 800 billion or 1 trillion in next 5 years (can happen if loyal people work hard), then spending 5-10 billion on jet's isn't even that big of a deal. J-31 is a game changer but you can't acquire it in 100's of numbers. JFT will be the work horse, specifically the block II and then J-11 (with J-16 tech) and the F-16's can form the mid-higher end tier. J-31 kept in 10 per squadron * 5 squadrons (50 total) can be kept dispersed across Pakistan for special purposes, safety and being able to respond from different places in case a special operations need comes.

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## sancho

orangzaib said:


> You guys keep repeating the SAME defensive speech the one I've seen above and many times on other posts. Only a blind person wouldn't know that J-11 would be better than J-10 and it's on par with the Super MKI if you include technologies used in J-16.



LOL, only because you post your believes/wishes above facts and the reality, which is why most of your post have no value. Even Chinese reports said, that J10 faired very well against Chinese Flankers in dogfights, which is not surprising, since the delta canard design offers advantages. And J11 has inferior radar, no canards or TVC, to make it at least equal to the current MKIs. 



orangzaib said:


> The EFT....Saudia is becoming a partner in the manufacturing of that plane, meaning you'll see the tech transfer, and manufacturing to Saudia.



Saudi is no partner of the EF, only an export customer. They only were meant to get an assembly line, to fit the kits produced in the UK, but not even that turned out to be reality. So any believe that they get any useful ToT is completely baseless, let alone that have any invlovement in the decision making of EF sales.

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## Munir

Saudi is as much partner in Typhoon as India is with MKI or PAKFA.

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## Viper0011.

sancho said:


> LOL, only because you post your believes/wishes above facts and the reality, which is why most of your post have no value. Even Chinese reports said, that J10 faired very well against Chinese Flankers in dogfights, which is not surprising, since the delta canard design offers advantages. And J11 has inferior radar, no canards or TVC, to make it at least equal to the current MKIs.
> 
> 
> Saudi is no partner of the EF, only an export customer. They only were meant to get an assembly line, to fit the kits produced in the UK, but not even that turned out to be reality



Right. My posts have no value to the people like you who don't accept that there can be a challenge from anyone to India. But when China invades your land and sits many miles inside your territory....people like you, put their tale between their legs and talk about 'deplomacy' and to 'solve the Chinese invasion with talks'. But had this been Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal or to some degree, Pakistan, you'd be moving your military like you guys are about to start WWIII. Speaks VOLUMES to the mentality 

Back to the topic, J-10 fared well against the Flanker has nothing to do with J-10 being what the Pakistani need. THAT was my point. J-11 with J-16's avionics is what I am referring to (Pakistan ALWAYS gets custom avionics vs. the standard Chinese package). So before you stup$d reply due to my statement being against your interests, you need to re-read my post and understand what I am saying in the above line.
Last, my knowledge doesn't come from being a closed minded person or by reading up online. Saudi's ARE going to invest into EFT. Remember this and we'll talk in a couple of years when that becomes reality. And with manufacturing and R&D partly done in Saudi..... now you can run Indian propaganda mill as much as you'd like to. It doesn't matter to me. Silly posts don't make you look smarter or better. They just show how emotionally upset you get along with how defensive you get due to the reality presented in the post you are responding to

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## Storm Force

Saudí s partner in typhoon did i Miss something.


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## Storm Force

ORANGZEIB. talking about being REALITY CHECK

YOU CLAIMED EARLIER 



> So, 5-8 or 10 years from now, Pakistan may be able to get EFT also. In fact, if they can grow their economy to 800 billion or 1 trillion in next 5 years (can happen if loyal people work
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...role-fighter-air-craft-447.html#ixzz2UOkUIOYE



Do you know wat this means ..... IT MEANS YOU THINK BY SOME MIRACLE PAK GDP will grow by 50% per year

for THE RECORD it growng at 3% 

Before you tell people to realistic YOU TOO need to calm down WITH some fantasy STUFF


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## Storm Force

Orangzeib

THE BEST BET FOR PAF going forward IS TO MAKE relations better WIT USA pre OBL raid. And wot 

WIN OVER the USA 

and get grant aided F16 block 52s 

BETTER THAN J10 
Way better then JF17
And far easier i induct since you have 63 F16s already since 1990 

Typhoon @ $100M EACH no chance and serious waster of VERY LIMITED resources.

EVEN INDIA is having second thoughts re RAFALE and they have MASSIVE RESOURCES relative to PAF


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## sancho

Munir said:


> Saudi is as much partner in Typhoon as India is with MKI or PAKFA.



Exactly, both are only export customers and just added some addional features, India canards, a different radar and TVC to MKI (btw we don't buy Pak Fa), the Saudis integrate some new weapons to EF now. Just like Pakistan remains an export customer of J10, even if some Pakistani avionics, Raad, or MAR 1 will be integrated and not a partner like in JF17.

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## Windjammer

Guys, sorry if I'm running late but it's the first time I've come across an image of an armed FC-20

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## Dil Pakistan

Windjammer said:


> Guys, sorry if I'm running late but it's the first time I've come across an image of an armed FC-20



*I THINK YOU MEAN J-20*

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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> Guys, sorry if I'm running late but it's the first time I've come across an image of an armed FC-20




Oh dayem!

Two IR missiles, one each on either side internal bays and 4 missiles in the main internal bay. Look like standoff/cruise missiles like C802/803 etc. That's some serious internal bay firepower!!!

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## That Guy

Storm Force said:


> Orangzeib
> 
> THE BEST BET FOR PAF going forward IS TO MAKE relations better WIT USA pre OBL raid. And wot
> 
> WIN OVER the USA
> 
> and get grant aided F16 block 52s
> 
> BETTER THAN J10
> Way better then JF17
> And far easier i induct since you have 63 F16s already since 1990
> 
> Typhoon @ $100M EACH no chance and serious waster of VERY LIMITED resources.
> 
> EVEN INDIA is having second thoughts re RAFALE and they have MASSIVE RESOURCES relative to PAF



I don't think so, even with improved relations, Pakistan needs a sanction-proof air-force, it's not going to get that with the US.

As much as I like the Americans and their tech, I don't trust them enough to not put Pakistan on their sanctions list.


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## Storm Force

Awesome for plaaf


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## UKBengali

sancho said:


> LOL, only because you post your believes/wishes above facts and the reality, which is why most of your post have no value. Even Chinese reports said, that J10 faired very well against Chinese Flankers in dogfights, which is not surprising, since the delta canard design offers advantages. *And J11 has inferior radar, no canards or TVC, to make it at least equal to the current MKIs.*



How on earth could you possibly know that?


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## fatman17

*J-10/10A Vigorous Dragon*

A PLAAF J-10A was photographed while carrying training rounds of PL-8 and PL-12 AAMs. J-10 (K/JJ10?) is a multi-functional single-engine fighter being developed by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) and 611 Institute. It has been selected by PLAAF as the next generation fighter to replace the obsolete J-7 fighter and Q-5 attack aircraft. The aircraft appears to have an Su-27 style nose and rectangular air intake, an AL-31F type engine, twin nose wheels, and a distinct low-visibility camouflage color scheme. The aircraft also has a large vertical tail plus twin F-16 style ventral stabilizers believed to provide greater stability at high AoA. Its fuselage looks considerably longer compared to Israeli Lavi. Unlike J-7E with double-delta wings, it appears to have a pair of inverted gull wings (i.e. the inner upper portion extends slightly downward, while the outer portion extends flat). The J-10 project was conceived in the 1984 based on the experience (tailless delta wing and canard foreplanes) with J-9 which was cancelled in 1980 in favor of the less risky J-7C/MIG-21MF project. An early model of J-10 revealed a Mirage 2000 style intake with a center shock cone for better high speed performance and a Lavi style tail section, suggesting a possible connection with the cancelled Israeli fighter (however this was firmly denied by both parties). The change indicates that J-10 has gone through at least one major redesign in its 18-year development period from the initial conventional layout as an air-superiority fighter to the latest semi-stealthy design as a multi-role fighter. This change may reflect a shift of its potential adversaries from former Soviet Mig-29/Su-27 to current American F-15/16/18 after end of the Cold War. The new design is certainly fitted with advanced avionics including a "glass cockpit" (1 wide-angle HUD + 2 monochrome MFD + 1 color MFD), HMS, HOTAS, GPS/INS, air data computer, ARW9101A RWR, Type 634 digital quadruplex FBW, digital fuel management system, mission management system, ARINC429 databus, and a detachable IFR probe. A new PD fire-control radar (Type 1473, search >120km, track 4-6, engage 2 simultaneously) is also fitted, which was based on Israeli EL/M 2035 radar for its cancelled Lavi fighter. A variety of newly developed air-to-air (e.g. PL-8 short-range IR guided AAM and PL-12 medium-range active radar guided AAM) and air-to-surface weapons can be carried under 11 hardpoints including KD-88 TV guided ASMs, LS-500J LGBs and K/JDC01 FLIR/laser designator pod. A new twin-rail missile launch pylon was developed to increase the total number of PL-12 MRAAMs it can carry from 2 to 4. Although it was believed to be powered initially by a 27,560lb/12,500kg thrust AL-31FN turbofan, a modified AL-31F which powers Su-27/J-11, Russia reportedly had denied China the license to produce the engine locally. As the result, an indigenous engine (WS-10) will be fitted later on its improved version (J-10B, see below). Some western military analysts believed that J-10 could pose a serious challenge to F/A-18C in terms of maneuverability. Some specifications of J-10 are (estimated): length 16.4m, height 5.4m, wingspan 9.8m, normal TO weight 12,400kg, max TO weight 18,600kg, internal fuel 4,500kg, max external load 6,600kg, g load +9/-3, max speed Mach 2.0 (high altitude)/Mach 1.2 (1,450km/h @ sea level), TO distance 400m, combat radius 1,100km, static ceiling 18,000m, ferry range 3,200km. The development of J-10 has not been smooth. A full-scale mock-up was built in 1991. The first prototype was set to fly in 1996, powered by a newly developed WS-10 turbofan based on the CFM56 engine core technology. However the development of this indigenous engine suffered serious difficulties and thus the rear fuselage and engine intake were forced to be redesigned in order to accommodate an alternative AL-31FN engine imported from Russia. After a 15-month delay, the first prototype (01/1001) was rolled out in June 1997. It made its maiden flight on March 23, 1998, two years behind the schedule. 6 prototypes (serial numbers 1002-1009) were built undergoing various static and flight tests at CAC in Chengdu and at the CFTE in Yanliang. Subsequently 3 more prototypes were built (1013-1016) as the project was moving into the pre-production phase while PLAAF remained fully committed. The flight test of J-10 was completed by the end of 2003 and the serial production started earlier that year. Approximately two are being produced each month, depending on the supply of AL-31FN engine from Russia. A total of 300 have been planned. The first J-10 in production standard flew on June 28, 2002. The initial batches of 50 (54 AL-31FNs were imported between 2002 and 2004) have been produced by CAC, wearing a new gray/light blue paint scheme. Currently the production continues at a rate of 2-4 per month. The first 9 (?) were delivered to the PLAAF Flight Test & Training Base for evaluation starting from February 2003. After some delay due the problems of fire-control system, J-10 was finally certified by the end of 2003. The first J-10 regiment was established in 2004 in the PLAAF 44th Division stationed in Yunnan Province facing India. Around 100 may have been produced by 2006 (01-03 batch, S/N 50x5x, 10x4x, 10x3x, 10x2x, 20x0x). J-10 was officially declassified on December 29, 2006. Some improvements have been made during the production, including a WL-9 radio compass antenna dish behind the canopy. A tandem-seat trainer version (J-10S) has been developed too (see below). Further improved variants including J-10A (improved glass cockpit and fire control system able to fire 4 PL-12 AAMs) and J-10B (JF-17 style cockpit, IRST/LR, AESA radar, DSI engine intake, RAM coating) have been developed. Currently J-10A is in service with PLAAF (04 batch, S/N 50x5x, 30x5x, 20x6x, 78x1x). The August 1 Aerobatic Demonstration Team also flies J-10AY (05 batch) to replace the old J-7GB. Recent images confirmed that PLAN is receiving its first batch of J-10As (06 batch, dubbed J-10AH, S/N 83x4x) which have been deployed at the eastern China coast facing Japan. They could be modified to carry YJ-83K AShMs in the future. Currently more J-10As (07 batch) are being produced for both the existing as well as new J-10 units.

- Last Updated 5/25/13


*J-10S Vigorous Dragon*

A PLAAF J-10S (K/JJ10S/JJ-10?) advanced trainer was taking off (S: tandem). This version features a stretched forward fuselage and a bubble canopy which can be opened as a single piece. An excellent 360° outside view in the rear cockpit is clearly shown in the photo. Its dorsal spine appears to have been enlarged to accommodate electronics displaced by the rear cockpit. In addition to being a trainer for J-10 pilots, J-10S could also be converted into an attack aircraft or EW/Wild Weasel anti-radiation aircraft, where it might carry Blue Sky low altitude navigation pod (similar to American LANTIRN pod), laser designation pod, as well as LS-500J LGBs and KD-88 ASMs. First Flight of 01 prototype took place on December 26, 2003. Two prototypes (01/1021 & 03/1023) were built undergoing various flight tests. J-10S passed the state certification in late 2005 and has entered service with PLAAF (S/N 10x4x, 50x5x, 10x3x, 20x0x, 20x6x, 30x5x, 78x1x). In addition, the August 1 Aerobatic Demonstration Team has been flying J-10SY since mid-2010. In late 2010 the first batch of J-10Ss are entering the service with PLAN (dubbed J-10SH? S/N 83x4x) along with J-10As. 

- Last Updated 3/20/13


*J-10B Vigorous Dragon*

The latest 1035 prototype of the J-10B (K/JJ10B?) was photographed at CAC airfield in July 2011, revealing the indigenous WS-10B (?) turbofan engine. This much improved variant made its maiden flight on December 23, 2008, powered by a Russian AL-31FN engine (1031 prototype). The improvements include a DSI/bump engine inlet which not only cuts weight but also reduces RCS, after a similar design was first tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. The aircraft also features a J-11B style IRST/LR and a wide-angle holographic HUD. IRST allows passive detection of enemy aircraft, making J-10B more stealthy in combat. Its nose appears flatter too, similar to that of American F-16, housing fire-control radar which could be an X-band AESA developed by the 14th Institute (track 10, engage 4 simultaneously), the first of such type ever being developed for a Chinese fighter aircraft, giving J-10B a stronger multi-target engagement and ECCM capability. There were also rumors that a PESA radar developed by the 607 Institute could be installed but this has not been confirmed. An ECM antenna can also be seen right in front of the canard foreplane on 1035. Two large pods housing testing equipments were attached under the wings. The tip of vertical tailfin was redesigned as well, featuring a large fairing containing communication and ECM antennas, which resembles that of French Mirage 2000. A rear facing MAWS sensor can be seen underneath the parachute boom. A similar system was tested onboard FC-1/JF-17. RAM coating is also expected in certain areas such as engine inlet and wing leading edges to reduce RCS. The aircraft may be fitted with CFTs in the future to further extend its range. All these improvements suggest that J-10B is equipped with a new generation of integrated electronic system, ranging from radar to EW system. Its mission may be changed from air-superiority to multi-role, such as CAS or EW. For air-superiority mission, normally 6 AAMs (PL-12x4 + PL-8x2, PL-12s are carried underneath the twin-rail launch pylon) can be carried. For CAS mission, normally 2 KD-88 AGMs or LS-500J LGBs can be carried. In addition, the aircraft is expected to be powered eventually by a WS-10B turbofan. Overall J-10B is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60. The 03 prototype (1033) first flew in August 2009, with the pitot tube removed from the nose tip. Both 1031 & 1034 prototypes have been tested at CFTE. J-10B is likely to serve as a testbed for various advanced technologies adopted by the 4th generation J-20 currently under development at CAC thus may not enter the service in large quantity with PLAAF. The production of J-10B has been postponed, due to the production quality issues of WS-10B. However it was speculated that the first batch of production J-10Bs would be powered by Russian AL-31FN engine and could enter the service with PLAAF 44th Division in late 2013. The latest images (March 2013) indicated that the 1031 prototype has been modified with ECM antennas installed ahead of the canard foreplanes similar to those onboard 1035, which represents the final configuration before the production. A further upgraded semi-stealth variant with CFT (J-10C?) was rumored to be under development but no information is available. 

- Last Updated 4/16/13

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## SBD-3

J-10 with supposedly KG-300G pod

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## Munir

That is not KG300 but optical tracking pod. Kind of lantirn. Just take the words "F14 and lantirn" (first gen lantirn!) and you will get...







or even on F15

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## SBD-3

Munir said:


> That is not KG300 but optical tracking pod. Kind of lantirn. Just take the words "F14 and lantirn" (first gen lantirn!) and you will get...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or even on F15


Then probably WMD-7 I guess?

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## khanasifm

hasnain0099 said:


> Then probably WMD-7 I guess?



the optical head swirls down in safe mode when not in use to protect it from any damage , true for all ldp us, French, Israeli and chinese pods

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## Viper0011.

Storm Force said:


> Orangzeib
> 
> THE BEST BET FOR PAF going forward IS TO MAKE relations better WIT USA pre OBL raid. And wot WIN OVER the USA and get grant aided F16 block 52s
> BETTER THAN J10 Way better then JF17
> And far easier i induct since you have 63 F16s already since 1990
> Typhoon @ $100M EACH no chance and serious waster of VERY LIMITED resources.
> EVEN INDIA is having second thoughts re RAFALE and they have MASSIVE RESOURCES relative to PAF



I've been saying this on many posts, Pakistan should get its relationships in order with the US and actually take advantage of what the US can do, off shoring to Pakistan, IT jobs, call centers, textile, Acrylic, Medical tech....all this was on the list to do between India and Pakistan. In fact, in 1998, Goldman Sach's and the investment gang had put Pakistan in the top 20 economies in the world with about 180-200 million people (well over half the population of the US in a much congested area and thus, better market to supply goods in a smaller place). But the nuclear blasts in 1998 resulted in sanctions. So now, the democratic Pakistan should expand its relations with the US and get investments flowing in (which many American institutes are ready for actually). 
I don't see Pakistan too interested in aid 5 years from the first real democratic government completing its terms. If they did their work, Pakistani economy should grow to about 24-33% in the last three years of this government. That's actually not that bad of a target knowing the population and the potential and the MASSIVE need for the infrastructure and reforms. At that time, the F-16's old news. The Pakistanis can actually pay for even F-15's or F-18's if they wanted to, if their economy increases by a 100 billion, spending 5 billion out of that is peanuts. But that can buy a expensive jets in decent quantity that'll last for the next 30 years.
Oh and I am in favor of Pakistan getting J-11's with J-16's avionics. Skip J-10, go for heavy duty stuff in a few years when the economy takes off. It's not an IF anymore....its now just when. 100 J-11 with J-16's avionics (latest Russian tech) with J-31 50 (10 per squadron spread across 5 locations for special ops) and F-16 Block 60 or something else in some numbers is sufficient enough. JFT will stay a proven platform specially in block III. It can later be converted into a stealth design wit a new airframe, sort of mini J-31 and in numbers, this when the economy is going high and a few billions are available setting up additional factories, tot, etc. So in the next 5-7 years, I see a whole different PAF flying a few new things (granted if the economy works).


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## Viper0011.

Storm Force said:


> ORANGZEIB. talking about being REALITY CHECK
> 
> YOU CLAIMED EARLIER
> Do you know wat this means ..... IT MEANS YOU THINK BY SOME MIRACLE PAK GDP will grow by 50% per year
> for THE RECORD it growng at 3%
> Before you tell people to realistic YOU TOO need to calm down WITH some fantasy STUFF



In Musharraff's time, when Pakistan was taking a hit of billions internally.....the economy was doing 8-9% growth while the country was in the state of war and with tensions on both borders at times. It dropped to 3% later due to electric related issue and the lack of power, gas, etc. 
But now the democratic government is in place. They have the relations to bring about 100 billion USD investment within the next 24 months. Plus the American economic houses have been wanting to target Pakistan since 1998 for investments. Security, political stability, less religious intolerance, less of taliban's crap and more education, these economic houses will pour additional few hundred billions. Knowing the need for infrastructure, the economy can EASILY go 8-11% growth with some decent effort. Now if they get to this in the third year of their 5 year term, in the last three years, the economy can grow from 24 - 33% in my opinion.......if they have 100 billion in Forex....spending 5 billion to jet about 50-100 advance jets isn't that big of a deal. You can't compare it to India and China as their economies have grown to a point and they had local economies from before so the pace is somewhat slow. BUT, in Pakistan's case, its economy is really about to be settled at the base level for the first time. The economy you know, had always been depressed and suppressed with issues. So yes, I am very calm and I know what$ 100 billion investment will do to Pakistan, as long as they keep fundamentalism out of their society, create peace with everyone and get more education going and democracy. Less religious tolerance...these are pre-reqs for intense growth in Pakistan. In fact, India will pump in $ 15-20 billion into Pakistan's economy. Your businessmen are itching for it


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## Luftwaffe

Storm Force said:


> Orangzeib. Love fantasy dreams of 100 billion forex and usa investing billions ...You are living in coockoo land. Pakistán is à failed state no one in the west wil trust them and the generals have cleaned up wat little money has.



You failed state definition is failed you can open a thread on fail states, a fail state is a one where daily life seize to exist development seize to exist stock market does not exist, even no form of government exists. tell me the forex reserves of US and their 11 trillion debt come back we'll discuss economy on the thread you open somewhere else.

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## Manticore

> Beside the financial problems, one other issue was the engine for J-10b/FC-20. PAF is not interested in this aircraft with the WS-10A engine. It thinks that its performance with WS-10 is inferior to one with Al-31FN.
> 
> Now the rumors are that Russia has agreed to sell AL-31FN to China for use in J-10B for export to Pakistan.
> 
> But no information whether the sale will go through unless money problem has been resolved. Let us hope for the best.



sir pshamim

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## Viper0011.

Storm Force said:


> Orangzeib. Love fantasy dreams of 100 billion forex and usa investing billions ...You are living in coockoo land. Pakistán is à failed state no one in the west wil trust them and the generals have cleaned up wat little money has.



1: Pakistan isn't a failed state. In fact, it helped the US with WOT for over 12 years and took losses for its brave soldiers and negative impact to its economy. Plus it has managed to keep you guys at bay (a very large bay at that). So unless you want to silly comment, its not a failed state. Failed states don't manage many fronts and other issues.

2: Pakistan is a real democracy now. You are about to witness a repeat of the Indian model but only faster paced investments pouring in like crazy. And it is going to see crazy increase in the economy within the next 36 months. You can take a picture of this post and keep a printout by your bed. When you see it in 3 years, think of me

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## Chak Bamu

Storm Force said:


> Orangzeib please explain why thid incredible growth wil happen in Pakistán when the rest of the World including china and india are slowing. Usa to invest billions yeah where from mate and why Pakistán. Surely any sensible investor wil píck more stable country .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are You making this up.
> 
> Usa is not even talking to u lot
> 
> Make the last usa state visit by usa presidente.



I live and work in Pakistan by choice. You have no idea how tough Pakistanis are. Investments will come precisely because other destinations are slowing down. Pakistan started de-regulation in South Asia but could not capitalize on that because of weak and compromised political system. India followed Pakistan's lead and prospered. Good for you. 

But we in Pakistan are on the verge of another round of de-regulation, privatization, and foreign investment. It shall take 2 to 3 years to dig out of the severe energy crisis. During this time investments shall come from China and Arab countries (notice just recent developments), as well as Western world. As the economy picks up, the pace shall increase. Just watch.

In five years Pakistan would not have any problem paying for military hardware. But then by that time both India and Pakistan would have better ties, stable borders, and a significant section of population committed to peace. Again, Pakistan is taking a lead in this endeavor while Indians seem to be dragging their feet.

FC-20 may or may not come to Pakistan, we would not have any problem supporting our defense programs.

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## sancho

ANTIBODY said:


> sir pshamim



So they don't like Russian engines, but still prefer it over less performing Chinese engines. Will we see the same wrt JF B3 too?

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## Storm Force

Orangzeib

Would love to see YOUR comments re this news below 

PAF suspends ?Air Force Development Plan 2025,? says report - DAWN.COM


You where suggesting a world record QUDRUPLE growth of 400% in GDP in 7 years 

AND USA which is nearly bankrupt PROVIDING $100 BILLION IN FDI in pakistan. 

WITH INCREDIBLE GROWTH BY THE HUGLY EDUCATED DRIVEN PAKISTANI BUSINESS COMMINITY

end result massive invstment in FC20 & F16 & J31 

----------------------------

Unfortunately this INCREDIBLE VISION OF YOURS looks a little SKEWED at present


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## Viper0011.

Storm Force said:


> Orangzeib please explain why thid incredible growth wil happen in Pakistán when the rest of the World including china and india are slowing. Usa to invest billions yeah where from mate and why Pakistán. Surely any sensible investor wil píck more stable country .
> Are You making this up.
> Usa is not even talking to u lot
> Make the last usa state visit by usa presidente.



You and your friends have this debate with me on other places. But you won't budge to understand the reality. India and China are slowing down because majority of investments have been made. Whatever was going to come from the west to you guys, majority of it has come. Now you have to grow internally and that's why the growth is slowed.
Now take an example of Pakistan. It has 200 million people compared to 1.2 billion people you guys have or the Chinese have. Your strongest point is also the weakest. Where you have such a big market compared to Pakistan, you ALSO need a LOT more money and other means of growth to care for 1.2 billion people. Where Pakistan needs to have 7 times less investment to care for its 200 million people as its a much smaller portion of the population. 
Over the next three years, you'll see basic infrastructure expanding like never before in Pakistan, including electricity, water, power, buildings, hospitals, highways, etc, etc. Things that you need to use to grow your economy. These programs will produce jobs and have ALREADY attracted businessmen from around the world. A 50 Billion dollar investment may mean almost a mid level investment to India or China, due to your size and the fact that the investment has to produce jobs, growth for 1.2 billion people.......but in Pakistan's case, 50 billion dollars investment means about 1 trillion rupees in their currency for ONLY 200 million people's growth (vs. 1.2 for India or China). So they can better their lifestyle, growth, financial freedom and defense upgrade with MUCH less money than India or China. That's a fact. In my opinion and some numbers I've seen floating around, there is EASY 50 billion dollar investment that will be made in the next 2-3 years into Pakistan. I personally think it'll go up to about 100-150 billion over 5-7 years but we'll see. A LOT has to change in Pakistan for such a larger number. They have to be religiously tolerant of others, work cohesively with each other, remove Islamic hard liners from their society and help the West combat terrorism outside of Pakistan and even within Pakistan. But nevertheless the population of Pakistan has asked for a better lifestyle. If the democratic government doesn't deliver it, people will democratically throw these guys away forever and will bring a new leadership. Everyone knows it and if anyone wants to remain in the power in Pakistan, they will have to deliver to the people of Pakistan and will have to create a better, safer, more modern, educated and ethnically tolerant Pakistan.

I just realized that your post took me off the topic as the topic was J-10. I'll go back to the topic now.
Does anyone know the range and the combat capability of J-10B's AESA radars? How far can it lock and how many targets can be fired upon simultaneously? Has this been disclosed? Also, what' the upgraded range for SD-10A?

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## Storm Force

Lovely combat plane the chinesse j10 and could be very useful addition to paf. Massive improvement on wat u have today. But going against everything positive that orsngzeib is preaching us looks unlikely especially with news in other thread abt cuts which some of you are ignoring


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## sancho

orangzaib said:


> Does anyone know the range and the combat capability of J-10B's AESA radars? How far can it lock and how many targets can be fired upon simultaneously? Has this been disclosed? Also, what' the upgraded range for SD-10A?



Finally something useful.  It's not even clear if J10B will have an AESA or if it will be a PESA, since there is no confirmation available yet, but generally estimates are tracking of 10 targets and engaging of 4 simultaneously.


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## IceCold

sancho said:


> Finally something useful.  It's not even clear if J10B will have an AESA or if it will be a PESA, since there is no confirmation available yet, but generally estimates are tracking of 10 targets and engaging of 4 simultaneously.



Does it even matter???

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/255588-paf-suspends-air-force-development-plan-2025-says-report.html

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## sancho

IceCold said:


> Does it even matter???
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/255588-paf-suspends-air-force-development-plan-2025-says-report.html



Yes it does, because even if there is no money for J10B, similar techs should be available for JF17 Block 3, so if J10B has a PESA, it is likely that JF 17 B3 gets a PESA too.

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## Munir

This forum is slowly but clearly moving towards discussions where Indians act hostile and Pakistani react. It will get out of control one day.

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## Kompromat

Munir said:


> This forum is slowly but clearly moving towards discussions where Indians act hostile and Pakistani react. It will get out of control one day.




We have medicine for that sir.

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## That Guy

Aeronaut said:


> We have medicine for that sir.



Is it called the ban-hammer?


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## fatman17

Munir said:


> This forum is slowly but clearly moving towards discussions where Indians act hostile and Pakistani react. It will get out of control one day.



just like in reality, they outnumber us....

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## muse

fatman17 said:


> just like in reality, they outnumber us....



Then perhaps we should rely more on our wits and intelligence and training, than on numbers? Quality over quantity??

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## bigzgvr4

muse said:


> Then perhaps we should rely more on our wits and intelligence and training, than on numbers? Quality over quantity??


quality over quantity and was good 3 decades ago.

look at the number one airforce in the world 

They have Quality Weapons and in huge quantity, USAF learnt alot from the korean war, They were going to quality over numbers but that did not suffice as they lost many battles in the air with superior quality but enemy had numbers so they called in nato air force to counter balance 

Pakistan Weapon Systems is Good compared to its rival But it lacks in Numbers Paf reallyneeds to step up and Get 3 platforms with quality weapons(which it has) and Procure in Large numbers 

paf Combat fighter Strenght should be in 700 and Above

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## muse

bigzgvr4 said:


> paf Combat fighter Strenght should be in 700 and Above



Can't get to 150 highly capable aircraft and you are talking about 700, PAF after struggle for decades comes up with a plan to bring it to respectable levels and even that plan fails - and yet apparently we must live in denial - yes, 700, sure, I'd like that but 700 pieces of junk are still junk, not suggesting that what we have is junk but exactly how many high performance ships do we have, 60?

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## bigzgvr4

muse said:


> Can't get to 150 highly capable aircraft and you are talking about 700, PAF after struggle for decades comes up with a plan to bring it to respectable levels and even that plan fails - and yet apparently we must live in denial - yes, 700, sure, I'd like that but 700 pieces of junk are still junk, not suggesting that what we have is junk but exactly how many high performance ships do we have, 60?



dude YOur naive Weapon system is not just based on the the Performance of any aircraft as in G turns etc. It is Based on Weapons that the aircraft Uses Now LOOK at the indian WEapons on their Aircraft and LOOK at pakistani Weapons on their Aircraft 

and you cannot Just simply Live in quality over quantity dream As INdia is now a hostile Nuclear State Right next to the border 

To counter indias massive Army/navy/airforce and nuclear Force 

pakistan needs Qaulity and quantity Edge in areal weapon system and a QUality/quanity Edge in its Submarine Force to Counter any threat india poses, 

they fastest Attack weapons are ballistic/cruise missiles(non nuclear) pakistan should have a clear quantity edge over india in this field ratioing 3:1 or better 

second fastest is the Jets it should have atleast 1.5:1 edge over india 

third we cannot match their ship strenght So we need more submarine and the ratio should be 3:1

ANd fuel for powering the jets and submarine pakistan Armed forces instead of endorsing DEfence housing projects and Bahria town projects SHould Invest and Produce 

this







its own Fuel so it can have the capabilty to Stand in case of war longer then 30 days 

and this will give pilots more Air time and Submarines more patrol time

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## muse

bigzgvr4 said:


> dude YOur naive Weapon system is not just based on the the Performance of any aircraft as in G turns etc. It is Based on Weapons that the aircraft Uses Now LOOK at the indian WEapons on their Aircraft and LOOK at pakistani Weapons on their Aircraft
> 
> and you cannot Just simply Live in quality over quantity dream As INdia is now a hostile Nuclear State Right next to the border
> To counter indias massive Army/navy/airforce and nuclear Force pakistan needs



Please be real - We cannot defeat TTP, and you seriously want us to think we can take on India?? Is India conducting Drone strikes on Pakistan? Is India sending soldiers and CIA trained paramilitary from Afghanian into Pakistan or is it NATO??

You guys engage in auto erotica with these notions of India, India have the full force of the US and NATO with them, you want to take them on with 40 year old Mirage? --Just please be sober.

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## bigzgvr4

muse said:


> Please be real - We cannot defeat TTP, and you seriously want us to think we can take on India?? Is India conducting Drone strikes on Pakistan? Is India sending soldiers and CIA trained paramilitary from Afghanian into Pakistan or is it NATO??
> 
> You guys engage in auto erotica with these notions of India, India have the full force of the US and NATO with them, you want to take them on with 40 year old Mirage? --Just please be sober.



you are right bro we should Just Nuke Pakistan Our Selves and be done with it we have about 90 to 110 nukes We should just Launch them all at once in different Locations so that with its blast Radius it covers whole of Pakistan kind of like a Blanket Effect i mean TTp are invincible with their AK-47 and RPG-7 and IEDs,.............


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## muse

bigzgvr4 said:


> i mean TTp are invincible with their AK-47 and RPG-7 and IEDs,.............



This comment should give you cause for thought - with just AK's PRG and IED, they have kicked some major behind - today political leadership is convinced that the Pakistani armed forces cannot defeat Islamist terrorists and talks "peace" read surrender (another school of thought holds that Pakistani armed forces continue to play a political strategic game and will ensure the end of the islamist threat at a time of their choosing depending on the international situation)

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## bigzgvr4

muse said:


> This comment should give you cause for thought - with just AK's PRG and IED, they have kicked some major behind - today political leadership is convinced that the Pakistani armed forces cannot defeat Islamist terrorists and talks "peace" read surrender (another school of thought holds that Pakistani armed forces continue to play a political strategic game and will ensure the end of the islamist threat at a time of their choosing depending on the international situation)



That comment was reflection of your Thought, and Pakistani Politicians are civilian and have no military Scope what so ever. 

here a Thought for you for me it is reality

IN a Conflict The Side that Suffers More Casualty and Equipment LOSS is the Loser, NO matter how much political and Moral support they have in an International Arena


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## araz

bigzgvr4 said:


> you are right bro we should Just Nuke Pakistan Our Selves and be done with it we have about 90 to 110 nukes We should just Launch them all at once in different Locations so that with its blast Radius it covers whole of Pakistan kind of like a Blanket Effect i mean TTp are invincible with their AK-47 and RPG-7 and IEDs,.............



Your comments are bordering on insanity. The numbers you have purported as your idea of superiority will never happen for the simple reason that following that policy will bankrupt Pakistan( not this current bankrupt Pakistan but an economically sound Pakistan). Till such time that your national income does not exceed(and even then it would be insane) the only sane combination is to maintain a clear deterrance factor. The problem at the moment is that we cant e en maintain this balance. The nuclear factor gives us some additional safety but that in its ownrights us a mutuAlly assured destruction which would be a last resort act. 
The TTP is a different kettle of fish and can not be destroyed by force .we will have to negotiate and keep negotiating till we reAch a result. Fighting them will prove futile and will only lead to more security concerns.
Araz

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## bigzgvr4

araz said:


> Your comments are bordering on insanity. Listen and listen well. The numbers you haveourported as your idea of superiority will never happen for the simple reason that following that policy will bankrupt Pakistan( not this current



Pakistan is already Bankrupt, you cannot be a follower if you want to Lead, 

Like i said Instead of Making Huge Housing Projects for Civilians the armed forces needs to Focus on how it can Become INdependent from the pakistani economy,I.e Producing own fuel(algea based jet fuel and diesel), Producing Own Weapons(which it is doing), and Producing own Energy(hydrogen and bio fuel energy power plants) ALso having its own Carbon fiber / composite Plants like how Pac/Pof are for weapons etc. So i can offset the huge Cost Price and produce light and Effective weapon with a longer shelf life and Functional life............

INSTEAD they are Pouring Millions in DEFENCE HOUSING,BAHRIA TOWN etc so they can Fill their pockets
i am talking about Big WIgs 

You cannot act like a defensive force with no advantage in ANy of the feilds in terms of numbers when it comes to A Nuclear hostile Nation, YOu will just Get Consumed by the shear fact 

so if you read my post earlier about the qualitative/quantitive advantage in Aircrafts(jf-17 should be around 400 + and Lisence produce J-10b in 250+) and have a 3;1 ratio over indian submarines and Cruisemissiles and Balistic missiles


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## ssethii

bigzgvr4 said:


> Pakistan is already Bankrupt, you cannot be a follower if you want to Lead,
> 
> Like i said Instead of Making Huge Housing Projects for Civilians the armed forces needs to Focus on how it can Become *INdependent from the pakistani economy*,I.e Producing own fuel(algea based jet fuel and diesel), Producing Own Weapons(which it is doing), and Producing own Energy(hydrogen and bio fuel energy power plants) ALso having its own Carbon fiber / composite Plants like how Pac/Pof are for weapons etc. So i can offset the huge Cost Price and produce light and Effective weapon with a longer shelf life and Functional life............
> 
> INSTEAD they are Pouring Millions in DEFENCE HOUSING,BAHRIA TOWN etc so they can Fill their pockets
> i am talking about Big WIgs
> 
> You cannot act like a defensive force with no advantage in ANy of the feilds in terms of numbers when it comes to A Nuclear hostile Nation, YOu will just Get Consumed by the shear fact
> 
> so if you read my post earlier about the qualitative/quantitive advantage in Aircrafts(jf-17 should be around 400 + and Lisence produce J-10b in 250+) and have a 3;1 ratio over indian submarines and Cruisemissiles and Balistic missiles



r u serious?


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## bigzgvr4

ssethii said:


> r u serious?



Broski Do you know who much they spend just on Fuel, Just take a wild Guess, if they can Produce their Own Fuel under the name of fouji foundation,shaheen foundation or bahria Foundation using Algae bio fuel Plants, that will save them Operational cost of fuel and in turn they can use that money to buy / produce more equipment and even Sell That fuel To PSO and Make Money which inturn Can be used to Buy / produce equipment 

Do the math


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## araz

bigzgvr4 said:


> Broski Do you know who much they spend just on Fuel, Just take a wild Guess, if they can Produce their Own Fuel under the name of fouji foundation,shaheen foundation or bahria Foundation using Algae bio fuel Plants, that will save them Operational cost of fuel and in turn they can use that money to buy / produce more equipment and even Sell That fuel To PSO and Make Money which inturn Can be used to Buy / produce equipment
> 
> Do the math


Again a good but unrealistic assumption of your defence needs. Defence is much more than fuel cost. People whi look aftef the borders risking their own lives so that you can sleep easy deserve a home at the end of their 30 odd yrs stint. So that is justified. Where are you goi g to get the technology for the newer weapons for. Who is going to buy weapons from you when you cant give them soft loans. POF is arely managi g to sell100 millions worth of arms. That is peanuts when you look at the R&D funding of any half decent defence firm. The R& D budget of lockheed Martin j probably more than the development budget of the whole of Pakistan.
So there is a need to have a realistic expectation from a country at the level of development that Pakistan is at now. Any more would lead to immense waste of funds without any results.
Araz

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## bigzgvr4

araz said:


> Again a good but unrealistic assumption of your defence needs. Defence is much more than fuel cost. People whi look aftef the borders risking their own lives so that you can sleep easy deserve a home at the end of their 30 odd yrs stint. So that is justified. Where are you goi g to get the technology for the newer weapons for. Who is going to buy weapons from you when you cant give them soft loans. POF is arely managi g to sell100 millions worth of arms. That is peanuts when you look at the R&D funding of any half decent defence firm. The R& D budget of lockheed Martin j probably more than the development budget of the whole of Pakistan.
> So there is a need to have a realistic expectation from a country at the level of development that Pakistan is at now. Any more would lead to immense waste of funds without any results.
> Araz



WHile i agree with you About HOusing Projects and it should just be for Armed Forces and not the WHole of Pakistani citizens which turns it into a profit based corruption practice 

Its Supply and demand, and to be successful All you need to do is cut your expenses (meaning NOt import oil atleast for defence needs) every war pakistan has fought after 3 weeks It runs out of Fuel, while still have plenty of Ammunition SO that should Tell you something, As long as pakistan armed forces if dependent on PSO to provide fuel, and water and power authority to provide Energy, they are Doomed and are only capabale for 30 days and then they are forced to use nukes in case of the conflict goes beyond 30 days and that very fact Puts pakistan in the weakest position and the politicians goes running to the International comunity and compromise Security or advances of measures that pakistan armed forces has taken during the Conflict and they have to give in


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## realistcpak

I Think PAF is working to hard to buy aircraft from China and building with them. Personally the PAF Should open its own research center and build a complete domestic aircraft without Chinese help and instead of buying engines- radar should build it by themselves. I know this will be very time consuming but if you look at our counter part India the dassault rafale that they acquired from France as well of the transfer of technology this leave India 2 steps ahead of The PAF firstly the, transfer of technology they got from that they can research and build more planes secondly they have started to open more domestic military centers for there personal army needs. I think jf17 thunder is a start but i hope to see also Pakistani made helicopters and carriers etc

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## RAMPAGE

realistcpak said:


> I Think PAF is working to hard to buy aircraft from China and building with them. Personally the PAF Should open its own research center and build a complete domestic aircraft without Chinese help and instead of buying engines- radar should build it by themselves. I know this will be very time consuming but if you look at our counter part India the dassault rafale that they acquired from France as well of the transfer of technology this leave India 2 steps ahead of The PAF firstly the, transfer of technology they got from that they can research and build more planes secondly they have started to open more domestic military centers for there personal army needs. I think jf17 thunder is a start buti hope to see also Pakistani made helicopters and carriers etc


and u call ur self realistic

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## realistcpak

Yh i do. We are enslaved by Chinese technology and American we have no real things of our own. Laugh all you want one day China will also turn on us. This is what happens" Rampage " typical people like you cant even try to put your brain in a sensible situation you think that Pakistani army is at the top of the world we cant even kill the Pakistani Taliban how we suppose to fight others? by throwing nukes thats all we can do blackmail nothing more and one day no one will fear that blackmail.

Yh i do. We are enslaved by Chinese technology and American we have no real things of our own. Laugh all you want one day China will also turn on us. This is what happens" Rampage " typical people like you cant even try to put your brain in a sensible situation you think that Pakistani army is at the top of the world we cant even kill the Pakistani Taliban how we suppose to fight others? by throwing nukes thats all we can do is blackmail nothing more and one day no one will fear that blackmail.


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## araz

realistcpak said:


> Yh i do. We are enslaved by Chinese technology and American we have no real things of our own. Laugh all you want one day China will also turn on us. This is what happens" Rampage " typical people like you cant even try to put your brain in a sensible situation you think that Pakistani army is at the top of the world we cant even kill the Pakistani Taliban how we suppose to fight others? by throwing nukes thats all we can do blackmail nothing more and one day no one will fear that blackmail.
> 
> Yh i do. We are enslaved by Chinese technology and American we have no real things of our own. Laugh all you want one day China will also turn on us. This is what happens" Rampage " typical people like you cant even try to put your brain in a sensible situation you think that Pakistani army is at the top of the world we cant even kill the Pakistani Taliban how we suppose to fight others? by throwing nukes thats all we can do is blackmail nothing more and one day no one will fear that blackmail.


Add the un of underage to your name for completions sake. Have you not seen what happened when India tried to go it alone with the Tejas. They have a much more developed infrastructure andhave been manufacturing under licence for yrs and yet the transition proved too much for them. you are already bankrupt and the chinese even are struggling with engine manufacturing. So let PAF experts do what they deem is realistic. We will one day be able to do all of the things that you want us to do but today and now is not the day and time. And we are probably 15-20 yrs away from that time if all goes smoothly.
Patience is a virtue learn the meaning of virtue and adopt it.! 
WaSalam
Araz

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## S.Y.A

realistcpak said:


> Yh i do. We are enslaved by Chinese technology and American we have no real things of our own. Laugh all you want one day China will also turn on us. This is what happens" Rampage " typical people like you cant even try to put your brain in a sensible situation you think that Pakistani army is at the top of the world we cant even kill the Pakistani Taliban how we suppose to fight others? by throwing nukes thats all we can do blackmail nothing more and one day no one will fear that blackmail.
> 
> Yh i do. We are enslaved by Chinese technology and American we have no real things of our own. Laugh all you want one day China will also turn on us. This is what happens" Rampage " typical people like you cant even try to put your brain in a sensible situation you think that Pakistani army is at the top of the world we cant even kill the Pakistani Taliban how we suppose to fight others? by throwing nukes thats all we can do is blackmail nothing more and one day no one will fear that blackmail.



beta paisa le ao aap, sab kuch ho jai ga, aur itna he mohabbat toot rhi hai Pakistan k liyay to baher mulk q bethy ho? wapas ao or woh sab kro jis ka khuaab dekh rhy ho, baher beth chillana bohat asan hai, kabhi khud bhi zara unki jaga kharey hokr dekho

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## realistcpak

While China will be selling J10's to PAF will they also transfer the technology please let me know? anyone any reliable source where it says it will provide Pakistan and transfer j10 technology?


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## Kompromat

realistcpak said:


> While China will be selling J10's to PAF will they also transfer the technology please let me know? anyone any reliable source where it says it will provide Pakistan and transfer j10 technology?



There is no money for J-10s anymore.

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## Storm Force

Six billion def budget v forty billion def budget wil give Pakistan minimum defensive posture. You have to grow by your means which means steady thunder growth to 150 by 2020 and smart politics to get free F16 from USA.


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## S.Y.A

Storm Force said:


> Six billion def budget v forty billion def budget wil give Pakistan minimum defensive posture. You have to grow by your means which means steady thunder growth to 150 by 2020 and smart politics to get free F16 from USA.



keeping the current relations in mind, free f-16s is a very wild dream


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## Storm Force

I can't see any other option the chinesse despite being ****** rich are not as generous to u as USA.....

Strange world your ally china wants to sell u weapons admitedly for soft loans. And Usa who you guys hate gives free grant aid.


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## sancho

Storm Force said:


> Six billion def budget v forty billion def budget wil give Pakistan minimum defensive posture.



The plain figure doesn't mean anything, because all that counts is how you use the money and in this regard PAF is doing pretty well in the last few years even much better than IAF. We might be able to procure more capable and more expensive toys, but still fall behind in certain areas because of slow decision making and delays in competitions. 
J10 would have made a difference only in high numbers, but that is not going to be reality and now we might see more JF 17s. So instead of slightly more quality, they get more quantity, which also is a benefit.


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## Storm Force

Sancho

In reply to your post 




> JF 17s. So instead of slightly more quality, they get more quantity, which also is a benefit


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...role-fighter-air-craft-451.html#ixzz2WDim0AYa

More qauntiity ACTUALLY your wrong i see nios going down as the mirage fleet is phased out. THOSE mirages are as old as MIG21s in indian aor force. AND they have over 150 of them ie 40% of the entire PAF fleet.

I see BY 2020 

63 -86 F16 
150 JFT 
140 F7/F7PJ 

Stil very large AIR POWER but basic single engined fighters BAR the very potent F16/52 

Against 550 

SU30MKI , Mirage2000-5 , MIG29SMT MIG29K & RAFALE F3 & TEJAS MK1 , JAGUAR DARIN

HUGE difference in quality and variety between PAF & IAF by 2020. 

the bottom line THIS DECADE wil really show the GAP in GDP & MILITARY BUDGETS. 

*REALISTICALLY FC20 is needed in large nos !!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Kompromat

J-10B Cockpit?

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## sancho

Storm Force said:


> More qauntiity ACTUALLY your wrong



The point was, that PAF can buy roughly 2 x JF 17s for 1 x J10, so instead of 36 x J10Bs, they could order additional 72 x JF 17s which will have operationally a higher effect than small numbers of J10Bs, even if the fighter is a bit less capable than a J10B in technical terms.


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## alimobin memon

The Fact is Most Updates in J10b are also possible in Jf17 !


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## Pinnacle

Sir @Aeronaut @Oscar @fatman17 Is J-10b coming to Pakistan now or its just a dream now...??


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## SQ8

danish falcon said:


> Sir @Aeronaut @Oscar @fatman17 Is J-10b coming to Pakistan now or its just a dream now...??



With the shortage of funds. Its a dream now.


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## Pinnacle

Oscar said:


> With the shortage of funds. Its a dream now.



 So sad... I really love this plane


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## Manticore

pneumatic compensated pitot head 2, L-shaped total pressure tube (total pressure parameter backup) 3, L-type full-static tube (standby pitot tube) 4, the radio altimeter antenna? Shortwave antenna? 5, missile approach warning system, optical window (MAW) (usually hooded, need to be on the ground before removing the protective cover?) 6, inlet boundary layer airflow overflow outlet 7, VHF UHF (UHF \ VHF ) antenna 8, navigation lights 9, Satellite communication antennas 10, 11 12 13, the auxiliary power unit (APU) air inlet 14, radar warning antenna 15, the engine cooling air inlet 16, the auxiliary power unit (APU) exhaust port 17 18, anti-collision lights 19, IFF antenna 20, static discharger 21, active electronic jamming system antenna 22 23, engine cooling air inlet 24, IR decoy launching the mouth? 25, put the oil port? 26, 27, L-shaped total pressure pipe (inlet data collection) 28, electronic equipment cooling air inlet 29, the angle of attack sensor vane-type 30, the fuselage static ports 31, an air conditioning vent? 32 33 34, the auxiliary power unit (APU) air inlet 35, removable maintenance window (4) 36, the auxiliary power unit (APU) exhaust port 37, radar warning antenna 38, a missile approach warning system, optical window (MAW)

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## AUSTERLITZ

Best idea for PAF is ditch J-10 altogether,save money for j-31/j-20 5th gen.Till then clean up talibs and keep peace in eastern front.
Problem is...Russia won't sell any 5th gen fighter capable engine to china let alone pakistan,without which 5th gen fighter will be only in terms of stealth not performance.Until china can build state of art engine capable of TVC and supercruise plus huge thrust.
Another option is j-11b if it gets AESA radar if they decide they must have a intermediate option.It can help out in naval strike as well,far better than jf-17 vs mig-29k is j-11b vs mig-29k.And j-11b is probably overall more capable than j-10.
Problem-PAF has fetish for single engine fighter and twin engine eats lots of gas,bad for budget.


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## Introvert

When is PAF getting the J10's again?


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## RAMPAGE

@gambit sir i have a question and it may sound silly , can we make an aircraft cannon as a ciws which can be used in anti missile role ?


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## gambit

RAMPAGE said:


> @gambit sir i have a question and it may sound silly , can we make an aircraft cannon as a ciws which can be used in anti missile role ?


We turned the Sparrow, and air-air combat missile, into a ship defense weapon. Why not a gun? You can use the standard 7.62 round as missile defense if you like. All you need is a lot of them in a concentrated fire pattern. At Mach speed, the collisions between the missile and hundreds of these rounds will destroy the missile.

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## soaringeagle

7.62 rounds do not have the range to used in a missile defense weapon, if the missile gets that close already (300-500 meters) hitting it will not make much difference.
A Vulcan gun (basically a Gatling machine gun with electric motor) firing a long range round (over 1000M) at 10,000 plus rpm might offer some effect.
Even that is marginal, and takes a real marksman with nerve of steel.


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## 498a

Storm Force said:


> I can't see any other option the chinesse despite being ****** rich are not as generous to u as USA.....
> 
> Strange world your ally china wants to sell u weapons admitedly for soft loans. And Usa who you guys hate gives free grant aid.



Is J-10 half J-11, because it has one engine were as j-11 has 2 engines ? , because single engine means less power , just a thought .


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## Kompromat



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## Kompromat



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## Donatello

Aeronaut said:


>



I like the smell of fresh paint in the morning.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Aeronaut said:


>



Where the hell THE ANTENNA at canards end go in production aircraft ? It is present on PT aircraft in gray ?
So did they downgrade production aircraft !


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## Kompromat

Maybe antenas have been embedded into the fusalage.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Aeronaut said:


> Maybe antenas have been embedded into the fusalage.



they weren't present on first or third prototype.












They first appeared on fifth PT.






And later first PT was also having same antennas.






and now disappeared from productional aircraft. 
These are same type of ECM antennas that RAFALE too have in front on its canards. I don't think these equipments can be embedded inside the aircraft b/c they have to monitor outer environment.


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## Dr. Strangelove

Aeronaut said:


>



i m in love with this beauty


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## nomi007

when will this sexy lady join pakistan airforce


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## Donatello

Aeronaut said:


>




In the lower left part of the picture, you can see a F-7/J-7 aircraft in yellow primer paint. The question is, what is it doing there, since the J-7 production line shut down?


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## Kompromat

Donatello said:


> In the lower left part of the picture, you can see a F-7/J-7 aircraft in yellow primer paint. The question is, what is it doing there, since the J-7 production line shut down?



Last F-7BG delivered to BDAF.


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## Kompromat



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## Donatello

Aeronaut said:


>



If this aircraft is being geared up for export, it better be for PAF first. Otherwise, what a pity.


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## manojb

Defence Minister A.K. Antony along with PLA Senior Colonel Zhao Kangping (right), inspects a PLA Air Force J-10 aircraft of the 24th Air Division in Tianjin, near Beijing !!

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## 帅的一匹

Seems the J10b is now using AL31F, the engine will still be a problem until year 2015.


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## Luftwaffe

manojb said:


> Defence Minister A.K. Antony along with PLA Senior Colonel Zhao Kangping (right), inspects a PLA Air Force J-10 aircraft of the 24th Air Division in Tianjin, near Beijing !!



Maybe india wants to buy it instead of LCA I/II

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## Wright

J-10 looks a lot like the Israeli Lavi.


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## Dr. Strangelove

Wright said:


> J-10 looks a lot like the Israeli Lavi.



no way this is lavi






and this if j 10

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## Nishan_101

But I am sure now some of the facts are clear that FC-20 is not the J-10B we were referring for PAF it will be the J-31 which will be similar in terms of engines to the JF-17s we have and INSHA ALLAH we will be producing it from 2017 if its being completed.


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## Fieldmarshal

wanglaokan said:


> Seems the J10b is now using AL31F, the engine will still be a problem until year 2015.



so is that the official date for the Chinese home grown variant to be mature enough for PLAAF to induct them in number???


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## Kompromat

Wright said:


> J-10 looks a lot like the Israeli Lavi.



And Lavi looks like the F-16


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## xuxu1457

Aeronaut said:


> And Lavi looks like the F-16



J-10 is based on an abortion project J-9V (from 1968 to 1980)

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## Storm Force

LAVI LOOKS AWESOME way better than j10


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## Nexus

Wright said:


> J-10 looks a lot like the Israeli Lavi.



j-10 is copy of Iai Lavi.



Storm Force said:


> LAVI LOOKS AWESOME way better than j10



100 Times true.


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## rockstarIN

Luftwaffe said:


> Maybe india wants to buy it instead of LCA I/II



You are degrading it dear, you should have wrote Rafale, lol.


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## Storm Force

to be fair these j10 look awesome too

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## Kompromat

@xuxu1457

I know mate.

@Storm Force

J-10 was actually designed by HAL in India which Chinese stole from them. Happy?

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## VelocuR

Aeronaut said:


> @Storm Force
> 
> *J-10 was actually designed by HAL in India which Chinese stole from them. Happy?*



yes it is stolen. Good one.

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## RAMPAGE

Nishan_101 said:


> But I am sure now some of the facts are clear that FC-20 is not the J-10B we were referring for PAF it will be the J-31 which will be similar in terms of engines to the JF-17s we have and INSHA ALLAH we will be producing it from 2017 if its being completed.


who the hell told u that ! any source ?


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## 帅的一匹

Fieldmarshal said:


> so is that the official date for the Chinese home grown variant to be mature enough for PLAAF to induct them in number???


I mean we face scale production problem of WS10 engines nowadays, be it material or management. 300 of J10A and J10S are using AL31F, we are far from the peak until the mature indeginous engine power could be put in the shelf.

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## Tehmasib

my question...PM recent visit defence deal never show up....?????


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## Nishan_101

RAMPAGE said:


> who the hell told u that ! any source ?



I know that its not going to happen at all. No SOURCE at all. Ok.


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## sancho

Luftwaffe said:


> Maybe india wants to buy it instead of LCA I/II



I would take it, if we can licence produce it with Indian composites, coatings, avionics, use the AL31 engines with TVC that we already produce, might add the Bars 29 (smaller MKI radar), or another AESA... it would be perfect for our low end.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> I would take it, if we can licence produce it with Indian composites, coatings, avionics, use the AL31 engines with TVC that we already produce, might add the Bars 29 (smaller MKI radar), or another AESA... it would be perfect for our low end.



better ask for lavi design with their weapons & |Russian radar & radar. Why involve Chinese except their example?


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## Akasa

manojb said:


> Defence Minister A.K. Antony along with PLA Senior Colonel Zhao Kangping (right), inspects a PLA Air Force J-10 aircraft of the 24th Air Division in Tianjin, near Beijing !!



He is inspecting a J-10AY which is unarmed and meant for the aerobatics team.

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## sancho

rockstar said:


> better ask for lavi design with their weapons & |Russian radar & radar. Why involve Chinese except their example?



We should have, but back then the Chinese had better relations to the Israelis. My point was only, that it would have been better for us to invest in a single engine, medium class fighter, with a delta canard design, compared to the light class delta wing fighter and that we could have shortened the development time by common engines with MKI.

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## Wright

sancho said:


> We should have, but back then the Chinese had better relations to the Israelis. My point was only, that it would have been better for us to invest in a single engine, medium class fighter, with a delta canard design, compared to the light class delta wing fighter and that we could have shortened the development time by common engines with MKI.



So is it based on the Lavi or not? Wikipedia says Israeli's sold Lavi technology to the Chinese.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Wright said:


> So is it based on the Lavi or not? Wikipedia says Israeli's sold Lavi technology to the Chinese.



Not the same at all.


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## sancho

Wright said:


> So is it based on the Lavi or not? Wikipedia says Israeli's sold Lavi technology to the Chinese.



The Chinese members will obviously deny, but when the plain look is not enough, there are other sources available on the net too. However, the J10 design has gone a long way and is a successful fighter today, while the Lavi ended up only a tech demonstrator by US pressure.


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## Kompromat

sancho said:


> The Chinese members will obviously deny, but when the plain look is not enough, there are other sources available on the net too. However, the J10 design has gone a long way and is a successful fighter today, while the Lavi ended up only a tech demonstrator by US pressure.



Lavi was a failure and US pressure is a myth as had they wanted the the Lavi to become a mare tech demonstrator, why would they fund it to begin with?

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## Donatello

sancho said:


> The Chinese members will obviously deny, but when the plain look is not enough, there are other sources available on the net too. However, the J10 design has gone a long way and is a successful fighter today, while the Lavi ended up only a tech demonstrator by US pressure.



Are you really stupid or do you just act stupid on PDF?

Every plane has wings, engines and vertical and horizontal stabilizers. So are they all copies of each other?

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## SQ8

Wright said:


> So is it based on the Lavi or not? Wikipedia says Israeli's sold Lavi technology to the Chinese.



This is from someone who was part of the team that designed the F-16



> When Israel bought their first F-16s, they sent a large group of engineers to America for "training" so they could better understand how to maintain their new airplanes. I was one of the instructors. They immediately went home and began to develop the Lavi with US money and with their new knowledge. The program was later cancelled under US pressure, but the technology and engineering assistance were later sold to China. That was an unethical and possibly dangerous path to follow, in my view.

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## nomi007

j-10b assembly line rare photo

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## sancho

Aeronaut said:


> Lavi was a failure and US pressure is a myth as had they wanted the the Lavi to become a mare tech demonstrator, why would they fund it to begin with?



I guess Oscars post had cleared it finally, but Israel was not the only country where the US shut down indigenous aero developments under political pressure. They did the same in Canada, S. Korea and Japan are facing the same issues and all that to remain with customers for their Boeing / LM fighters. So that is nothing new or rare for them, but just aimed on their economical interest. I actually wonder that they didn't reacted to Turkey's fighter development interests so far.

Anyway, back to J10 again:

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## That Guy

Who cares if it was a copy or not, the point is that it is a beautiful and successful fighter.


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## Thorough Pro

Don't use the cheap indian stuff and it can become your top-end. 



sancho said:


> I would take it, if we can licence produce it with Indian composites, coatings, avionics, use the AL31 engines with TVC that we already produce, might add the Bars 29 (smaller MKI radar), or another AESA... it would be perfect for our low end.


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## araz

Hello people.
Hkan of pakdef.info is reporting that the govtt has assured the release of1.3 billion$to the PAF for the procurement of first batch of 36--50 J10Bs. The order might be made in the next 2-3 months.I think the F16 deal has been shelved for good. RIP F16.
araz

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## muse

araz said:


> Hello people.
> Hkan of pakdef.info is reporting that the govtt has assured the release of1.3 billion$to the PAF for the procurement of first batch of 36--50 J10Bs. The order might be made in the next 2-3 months.*I think the F16 deal has been shelved for good.* RIP F16.
> araz



If true then good riddance to the F16 and the strings it came with

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## Dr. Strangelove

araz said:


> Hello people.
> Hkan of pakdef.info is reporting that the govtt has assured the release of1.3 billion$to the PAF for the procurement of first batch of 36--50 J10Bs. The order might be made in the next 2-3 months.I think the F16 deal has been shelved for good. RIP F16.
> araz




at last if true


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## Major Sam

araz said:


> Hello people.
> Hkan of pakdef.info is reporting that the govtt has assured the release of1.3 billion$to the PAF for the procurement of first batch of 36--50 J10Bs. The order might be made in the next 2-3 months.I think the F16 deal has been shelved for good. RIP F16.
> araz



One of the best news in whole day for me and for pakistan.

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## Pinnacle

araz said:


> Hello people.
> Hkan of pakdef.info is reporting that the govtt has assured the release of1.3 billion$to the PAF for the procurement of first batch of 36--50 J10Bs. The order might be made in the next 2-3 months.I think the F16 deal has been shelved for good. RIP F16.
> araz



YAHOOOOOOOOO......!!!


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## Irfan Baloch

araz said:


> Hello people.
> Hkan of pakdef.info is reporting that the govtt has assured the release of1.3 billion$to the PAF for the procurement of first batch of 36--50 J10Bs. The order might be made in the next 2-3 months.I think the F16 deal has been shelved for good. RIP F16.
> araz



interesting
hard to believe. I cant decide if its good or bad news or should I be sad or happy. F-16 block 52 are exceptional planes and they are made by the best jet fighter making company and the best jet making country. 

J-10s look nice. and thats that. I dont mean to offend.


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## A.Rafay

araz said:


> Hello people.
> Hkan of pakdef.info is reporting that the govtt has assured the release of1.3 billion$to the PAF for the procurement of first batch of 36--50 J10Bs. The order might be made in the next 2-3 months.I think the F16 deal has been shelved for good. RIP F16.
> araz



Awesome news! J10b is a good plane!


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## shanixee

araz said:


> Hello people.
> Hkan of pakdef.info is reporting that the govtt has assured the release of1.3 billion$to the PAF for the procurement of first batch of 36--50 J10Bs. The order might be made in the next 2-3 months.I think the F16 deal has been shelved for good. RIP F16.
> araz



Great news..!!!


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## Jango

Let's all do the celebrations, get our expectations high, and then come back to the ground 2 months later like a leaking balloon.

Haven't we done this routine a million times before? Yet, we still get our hopes unrealistically high...

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## araz

nuclearpak said:


> Let's all do the celebrations, get our expectations high, and then come back to the ground 2 months later like a leaking balloon.
> 
> Haven't we done this routine a million times before? Yet, we still get our hopes unrealistically high...



Fully agreed. Lets wait and see what happens.
Araz

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## araz

Irfan Baloch said:


> interesting
> hard to believe. I cant decide if its good or bad news or should I be sad or happy. F-16 block 52 are exceptional planes and they are made by the best jet fighter making company and the best jet making country.
> 
> J-10s look nice. and thats that. I dont mean to offend.


NoI can see where you are coming from. I think the very fact that we reduced our order from 72 to 36 buying only 18 meant PAFs lack of trust in all US equipment.The ineptness of the Zardari set up has meant that the economy took a nose dive and PAF either due to lack of funds or sheer laziness has allowed the opportunity to come and go without grabbing it. With a three yr hiatus between a new order and delivery there is a risk of being in the state we were in at the time of the first embargo and no one can afford that irrespective of how amazing the planes are. It would probably have been a better bet to increase F16s to 150 and take on 200-250 JFTs and wait for the J31. But as always PAF wants to give the US as little leeway as is possible in the region in future and has decided to go the chinese way. There are numerous advantages to this move. We have a symbiotic relationship with the chinese as against an opportune parasitic relationship with the US. With the impending US withdrawal PAF cannot take this risk. I still suspect we will keep asking for some hand me down F16s as an interim from the US but use our money to buy chinese and develop it according to our needs. To keep Pakistan under its influence USA may yet give us more F16s to MLU but the most likely scenario is that the 16s will live out their lives without PAF placing too much emphasis on them. One can only extrapolate why there was a need to buy just 18 bl.52s but this is not the time for it. So lets wait for confirmation of the news and then lets take up the issue later.
Araz

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## Arsalan

araz said:


> Hello people.
> Hkan of pakdef.info is reporting that the govtt has assured the release of1.3 billion$to the PAF for the procurement of first batch of 36--50 J10Bs. The order might be made in the next 2-3 months.I think the F16 deal has been shelved for good. RIP F16.
> araz



That sure will be great if turned out to be true. As [MENTION] nuclearpak [/MENTION] said, we have done this over an over again, the premature celebrations, the heated debated that this procurement in in the best interest of country and stuff like that. this happened from the submarines, FC-20, JF-17 Blk II etc 

I agree that is is the right way forward and will join in the celebrations once something official is confirmed. 

However, an interesting point to keep an eye on while following the developments will be, if there is any such thing happening at all, then which variant is involved?
The rumored FC-20, J10B or simply the J-10? This is very important as there will be significant difference in the effect that these planes will have on PAF. The effect will be different for FC-20 or J-10B than it will be for J-10! 
Capabilities aside, these different variants will effect the moral and confidence of the PAF and the perception of general public differently. FC-20/ J10B was something we were looking forward too and have given this as a reason of delay in the procurement. So now at the end of the day, if we are eventually getting J-10 by 2016 2017 then this wont be this BIG an achievement.


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## Thorough Pro

And that country has shown its true colors on multiple occasions. I would rather prefer a piece of equipment with 70% capability and 100% operational reliability over an equipment with 100% efficiency but 70% operational reliability in terms of spares and weapons.



Irfan Baloch said:


> interesting
> hard to believe. I cant decide if its good or bad news or should I be sad or happy. F-16 block 52 are exceptional planes and they are made by the best jet fighter making company and the best jet making country.
> 
> J-10s look nice. and thats that. I dont mean to offend.


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## fjavaid

well if this news is true then the most appealing part will induction of AESA/PESA radar in PAF inventory ...
we all have seen Pics of J10B with AESA/PESA radar i assume ..


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## araz

fjavaid said:


> well if this news is true then the most appealing part will induction of AESA/PESA radar in PAF inventory ...
> we all have seen Pics of J10B with AESA/PESA radar i assume ..



A very interesting thought. I would have thiought though that this was always going to be the way. Do we know what the chinese have in the way of AESA/PESA. It would probaly permeate down to block 3 JFTs in 2016. I wonder what the significance of the news reported earlier about PAF not going for J10Bs.Whether this was the ploy to get the chinese to reduce the unit price or get some more punch into the beast handed down from J20. These are just my thoughts so feel free to expand on it.
Araz


----------



## S-A-B-E-R->

If the news is true than i am really shocked i thought the deal was dead in waters, but if true than a good deal now we ll have two Jets with good datalink between each other and the AEWC .good system.


----------



## shanixee

fjavaid said:


> well if this news is true then the most appealing part will induction of AESA/PESA radar in PAF inventory ...
> we all have seen Pics of J10B with AESA/PESA radar i assume ..



A question due to lack of my knowledge...which 1 is better AESA OR PESA Radar..??


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Thorough Pro said:


> . *I would rather prefer a piece of equipment with 70% capability *and 100% operational reliability over an equipment with 100% efficiency but 70% operational reliability in terms of spares and weapons.



there is no runner-up in air-war. be the best or step aside and dont even bother flying @araz
my comments are regarding a question mark over the capabilities of J-10. I cant be PC here sorry. I dont see it trumping F-16s, SU 30s , Typhoons and rafales, there is a limit to wishful thinking and I am lacking it a lot. I wish to be proven wrong though.

I agree with your comments about the dilemma (about PPP govt) & our unpredictable relationship with the USA and the resulting impact on our front-line fighters.

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## 帅的一匹

Irfan Baloch said:


> there is no runner-up in air-war. be the best or step aside and dont even bother flying
> @araz
> my comments are regarding a question mark over the capabilities of J-10. I cant be PC here sorry. I dont see it trumping F-16s, SU 30s , Typhoons and rafales, there is a limit to wishful thinking and I am lacking it a lot. I wish to be proven wrong though.
> 
> I agree with your comments about the dilemma (about PPP govt) & our unpredictable relationship with the USA and the resulting impact on our front-line fighters.


I don't think F16 is able to deal with SU30, Typhoon, Rafale either.


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

shanixee said:


> A question due to lack of my knowledge...which 1 is better AESA OR PESA Radar..??



i think they are almost similar both are electronically steered
pesa radars have travelling wave tube tubes, so its frequencie is fixed 
this isnt the same with aesa with different frquencies it is difficult to jam an aesa radar 

so aesa is a lot better


----------



## Argus Panoptes

Irfan Baloch said:


> there is no runner-up in air-war. be the best or step aside and dont even bother flying
> @araz
> my comments are regarding a question mark over the capabilities of J-10. I cant be PC here sorry. I dont see it trumping F-16s, SU 30s , Typhoons and rafales, there is a limit to wishful thinking and I am lacking it a lot. I wish to be proven wrong though.
> 
> I agree with your comments about the dilemma (about PPP govt) & our unpredictable relationship with the USA and the resulting impact on our front-line fighters.



Sir, if F-6 can beat F-14 ........

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/266193-paf-f-6-beat-f-14-tomcat.html

........ then surely the J-10 can beat F-22, right?

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## Armstrong

Irfan Baloch said:


> there is no runner-up in air-war. be the best or step aside and dont even bother flying
> @araz
> my comments are regarding a question mark over the capabilities of J-10. I cant be PC here sorry. I dont see it trumping F-16s, SU 30s , Typhoons and rafales, there is a limit to wishful thinking and I am lacking it a lot. I wish to be proven wrong though.
> 
> I agree with your comments about the dilemma (about PPP govt) & our unpredictable relationship with the USA and the resulting impact on our front-line fighters.



That assessment doesn't make any sense Irfan Bhai ! This thread & even the Jf-17 thread have been riddled with information that substantiate why its a very good aircraft & is more than a match for even the Block 52 ! 

Imagine this if the Jf-17 has been dubbed by many esteemed members on this form, @Oscar being one of them, which is something comparable to the F-16 Block 40 & approaches the Block 52 in some areas, than how could it possibly be so that a superior aircraft to the Jf-17, the J-10 & more so the J-10B, be thought of as an aircraft that couldn't best an F-16 & hold its own, albeit in unison with other factors, against the Su-30s, the Typhoons & the Rafaels ?

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## FarazUSA

Armstrong said:


> That assessment doesn't make any sense Irfan Bhai ! This thread & even the Jf-17 thread have been riddled with information that substantiate why its a very good aircraft & is more than a match for even the Block 52 !
> 
> Imagine this if the Jf-17 has been dubbed by many esteemed members on this form, @Oscar being one of them, which is something comparable to the F-16 Block 40 & approaches the Block 52 in some areas, than how could it possibly be so that a superior aircraft to the Jf-17, the J-10 & more so the J-10B, be thought of as an aircraft that couldn't best an F-16 & hold its own, albeit in unison with other factors, against the Su-30s, the Typhoons & the Rafaels ?



Sir, if you were visit Russian and western defense forums, you would see quite negative reviews about JF-17 that I can't probably describe here that too coming from aviation experts. At the same time, it is a wonderful aircraft which would evolve with time. It is natural for us to be happy and excited about our product but the expectations should not go overboard which is what I see happening here.

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## Irfan Baloch

wanglaokan said:


> I don't think F16 is able to deal with SU30, Typhoon, Rafale either.



you replied just like our politicians do when they are questioned about corruption and mismanagement their response is that the guy asking the question is also not clean himself.

I dont mean to offend and I dont mean to make people feel bad. China has made great strides but it has yet to convince the world that it is in the league of the seasoned fighter jet producers like USA, Europe and Russia. 

for simplicity sake if WS-10A can make a serious replacement of AL-31FN then there is hope otherwise we will be taunted that our higher than Himalayas and deeper than Indian Ocean friendship still needs Russian engines to fly.

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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/123408-chinese-fighters-evolution-4.html#post4552606

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## Armstrong

FarazUSA said:


> Sir, if you were visit Russian and western defense forums, you would see quite negative reviews about JF-17 that I can't probably describe here that too coming from aviation experts. At the same time, it is a wonderful aircraft which would evolve with time. It is natural for us to be happy and excited about our product but the expectations should not go overboard which is what I see happening here.



Indeed but there should be a rational basis for those negative reviews too. Just go through this thread & the thread on the Jf-17 & one would come across more than rational reviews on the Jf-17 & the J-10 by our resident posters & industry experts alike who've praised it for what they are whilst highlighting what they think are their shortcomings ! 

No one is claiming that either of those two platforms are going to down a couple of Su-30s with the Pilot sipping a cup of Gloria Jean's Irish Cream & munching on a Fudge Brownie but to right-it-off in such a disparaging way as some of our posters have the habit of doing, betrays a poor understanding of the Aircraft under question with respect to other Air Platforms out there, at best or a deliberate attempt to see only what they want to see, at the very worst ! 

Some of the more respected posters on PDF like @sancho @Najam Khan @gambit @ANTIBODY & @Oscar have written some very insightful posts on both the Jf-17 & the J-10s. Posts that are both realistic & without-bias & highlight both what these platforms offer & what they lack.

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## Beast

Armstrong said:


> Indeed but there should be a rational basis for those negative reviews too. Just go through this thread & the thread on the Jf-17 & one would come across more than rational reviews on the Jf-17 & the J-10 by our resident posters & industry experts alike who've praised it for what they are whilst highlighting what they think are their shortcomings !
> 
> No one is claiming that either of those two platforms are going to down a couple of Su-30s with the Pilot sipping a cup of Gloria Jean's Irish Cream & munching on a Fudge Brownie but to right-it-off in such a disparaging way as some of our posters have the habit of doing, betrays a poor understanding of the Aircraft under question with respect to other Air Platforms out there, at best or a deliberate attempt to see only what they want to see, at the very worst !
> 
> Some of the more respected posters on PDF like @sancho @Najam Khan @gambit @ANTIBODY & @Oscar have written some very insightful posts on both the Jf-17 & the J-10s. Posts that are both realistic & without-bias & highlight both what these platforms offer & what they lack.



Even aviation expert can be nationalistic.....

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## Armstrong

Beast said:


> Even aviation expert can be nationalistic.....



Yes but Nationalistic doesn't equal Biased !  

I'm as Nationalistic as they come but I recognize that the Jf-17 isn't the best platform out there...far from it but it offers us something that no other platform could & therefore its the best bet for us !

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## Tempest II

Armstrong said:


> That assessment doesn't make any sense Irfan Bhai ! This thread & even the Jf-17 thread have been riddled with information that substantiate why its a very good aircraft & is more than a match for even the Block 52 !
> 
> Imagine this if the Jf-17 has been dubbed by many esteemed members on this form, @Oscar being one of them, which is something comparable to the F-16 Block 40 & approaches the Block 52 in some areas, than how could it possibly be so that a superior aircraft to the Jf-17, the J-10 & more so the J-10B, be thought of as an aircraft that couldn't best an F-16 & hold its own, albeit in unison with other factors, against the Su-30s, the Typhoons & the Rafaels ?



Both the JF-17 and J-10 have moved with the times. I am sure what we have today is not what was originally specified or expected 10 years ago.   For example we all remember the FC-1 we expected to have a Kopyo radar or Grifo-S7, a 70km SD-10, 84kN RD-93 and 2 MFDs. However we are now looking at 3 MFDs, KLJ-7 (picking a fighter at 130km), >100km SD-10A, upto 100KN RD-93MA based on RD-33MK, serious anti-ship and anti-radiation missiles, guided and glide bombs, data-link, HMS, etc. Concerning the J-10 you have Whitehouse briefings acknowledging it is more than an F-16 and more towards the Typhoon and Rafale performance. I am sure this is said in relation to performance (quality) than carrying capacity.

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## Gentelman

araz said:


> Hello people.
> Hkan of pakdef.info is reporting that the govtt has assured the release of1.3 billion$to the PAF for the procurement of first batch of 36--50 J10Bs. The order might be made in the next 2-3 months.I think the F16 deal has been shelved for good. RIP F16.
> araz



PAF requirements about FC-20 were more than J-10Bs
it's obvious that ecen if PAF FC-20 are as per requiremebts and more advance than J-10Bs than we would never know officially but maybe any guess??
Well good news anxiously waiting for any such news but any source maybe??


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## sancho

Tempest II said:


> Concerning the J-10 you have Whitehouse briefings acknowledging it is more than an F-16 and more towards the Typhoon and Rafale performance. I am sure this is said in relation to performance (quality) than carrying capacity.



Doubtful, if at all it can be said wrt the delta wing design, but other than that, there is hardly any commonality. 
On the other side, you have the J10 and the F16, both single engine medium class fighters, developed similar materials or coatings, designed for similar interception roles mainly and meant as a cost-effective low end alternative for heavy class air superiority fighters. 
So the comparison to the F16 is more than valid, the J10B should be able to give the latest F16 B52 and B60 versions (depending on the final specs of the J10B upgrades) more than just a headache, especially when it comes in high numbers. But sadly China seems to be a bit distracted by their progress in the NG fighter developments, which might cut the importance of J10 and it's potential to bring it to similar performance as the EF or Rafale.

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## ziaulislam

Irfan Baloch said:


> there is no runner-up in air-war. be the best or step aside and dont even bother flying
> @araz
> my comments are regarding a question mark over the capabilities of J-10. I cant be PC here sorry. I dont see it trumping F-16s, SU 30s , Typhoons and rafales, there is a limit to wishful thinking and I am lacking it a lot. I wish to be proven wrong though.
> 
> I agree with your comments about the dilemma (about PPP govt) & our unpredictable relationship with the USA and the resulting impact on our front-line fighters.



well some people think otherwise, j-10b if given some time i.e 3-4 years might easily match the f-16Es 0r rafale (AESA, new avionics and data fusion).
Oscar mentioned that in air to air role it does matches rafale but isnt that good in multirole capablities. correct me if i am wrong.
i am pretty sure J-20 will help J-10B and i am pretty sure that the money chinese had they would definitely had joined the PAK-FA project had the upper brass not been assured that they can create a generation ahead aircrft with powerful avionics, data fusion etc
remeber the chines were offered partnership first, only later the indians joined
regarding engines chinese have been manufacturing various engines. and have started manufacturing latest engines according to rumours, i am pretty confidence than we will see mass production sole chinese engines flying in year or two maximum

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## Tempest II

*AIR FORCE Magazine / July 2006*


> DOD seemed to offer a re-assessment of the capabilities of Chinas F-10 fighter, which it previously had compared to the F-16 Block 30. (See Washington Watch: Chinese Military Is Catching UpFast, September 2005, p. 12.) In this latest version of the annual China report, the Pentagon said the F-10 is probably more comparable to the Euro- fighter Typhoon and French Rafale, considered among the top three fighters in the world today, after the US F-22A. The Pentagon expects more than 1,200 F-10s will be built, and improved versionsthe F-10A and Super-10are in advanced development.

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## krash

shanixee said:


> A question due to lack of my knowledge...which 1 is better AESA OR PESA Radar..??



AESA vs PESA

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## ziaulislam

krash said:


> AESA vs PESA



AESA>PESA>mechanical steered pulse doppler..



sancho said:


> Doubtful, if at all it can be said wrt the delta wing design, but other than that, there is hardly any commonality.
> On the other side, you have the J10 and the F16, both single engine medium class fighters, developed similar materials or coatings, designed for similar interception roles mainly and meant as a cost-effective low end alternative for heavy class air superiority fighters.
> So the comparison to the F16 is more than valid, the J10B should be able to give the latest F16 B52 and B60 versions (depending on the final specs of the J10B upgrades) more than just a headache, especially when it comes in high numbers. But sadly China seems to be a bit distracted by their progress in the NG fighter developments, which might cut the importance of J10 and it's potential to bring it to similar performance as the EF or Rafale.


j-10 and J-11 will still form the majority/bulk of PLAAF for very long time..so idont think so they will ignore it..
we might see near 500 J-10s in chinese arsenal alone(250+ j-10A already in service)..thats more than what india total 4.5 arsenal might be around 2025


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## gambit

FarazUSA said:


> Sir, if you were visit Russian and western defense forums, you would see *quite negative reviews about JF-17* that I can't probably describe here that too coming from aviation experts. At the same time, it is a wonderful aircraft which would evolve with time. It is natural for us to be happy and excited about our product but the expectations should not go overboard which is what I see happening here.


You should understand at least a couple things:

1- That the reviews are based, not necessarily biased, upon known standards and unfortunately those standards are established by the leaders of the industry.

2- It is inevitable. And in a way, we have no choice. We cannot perform critical analyses of the J-17 against the Sopwith Camel. The J-17 was developed based upon what joint Pakistan-China believes to be achievable goals which came from, like it or not, Western fighters.

It is like chess, you cannot improve if the only opponents you have are those you consistently defeat.

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## sancho

Tempest II said:


> compared to the F-16 Block 30



So it's more about being a 4th gen multi role fighter (which still is comparable to the F16 B52 as I said) and having the potential to be a 4.5th gen fighter, unlike the older F16 Blocks, but it has nothing to do with similar performance.


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## fjavaid

araz said:


> A very interesting thought. I would have thiought though that this was always going to be the way. Do we know what the chinese have in the way of AESA/PESA. It would probaly permeate down to block 3 JFTs in 2016. I wonder what the significance of the news reported earlier about PAF not going for J10Bs.Whether this was the ploy to get the chinese to reduce the unit price or get some more punch into the beast handed down from J20. These are just my thoughts so feel free to expand on it.
> Araz



yes first we heard that PAF will be having its hand on J10A..then came the news the whole deal is scraped ...n now this ....
personally i dont think PAK-china relationship works this way of bringing unit cost down ...it is also rumored that PAF has its input even for J10 A ....so may be there's a whole new side of story

as PESA's are concerned its been widely seen n discussed on PDF n other forum (J10 & J-11 )..

i wont be jumping a lot until some credible news comes into light ..

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## ziaulislam

fjavaid said:


> yes first we heard that PAF will be having its hand on J10A..then came the news the whole deal is scraped ...n now this ....
> personally i dont think PAK-china relationship works this way of bringing unit cost down ...it is also rumored that PAF has its input even for J10 A ....so may be there's a whole new side of story
> 
> as PESA's are concerned its been widely seen n discussed on PDF n other forum (J10 & J-11 )..
> 
> i wont be jumping a lot until some credible news comes into light ..


J-10A Would have been pretty irrelevant in context of pakistann wanting to reduce its numbers and india moving ahead with rafale.

PAF wanted something at par with that


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## That Guy

gambit said:


> You should understand at least a couple things:
> 
> 1- That the reviews are based, not necessarily biased, upon known standards and unfortunately those standards are established by the leaders of the industry.
> 
> 2- It is inevitable. And in a way, we have no choice. We cannot perform critical analyses of the J-17 against the Sopwith Camel. The J-17 was developed based upon what joint Pakistan-China believes to be achievable goals which came from, like it or not, Western fighters.
> 
> *It is like chess, you cannot improve if the only opponents you have are those you consistently defeat*.



questionable analogy, but I can understand your point.

I'd like to point out that all I ever end up reading on Russian and US forums are about China copying them, and not so much about the performance of the planes. It's true that the JF-17 isn't a top of the line fighter, but it was never meant to be. It was supposed to be an indigenous replacement for the mirage and other older fighters in the PAF inventory, while the FC-20 is supposed to be a replacement for the F-16. Unfortunately, I have never run across anyone on those forums that even mention these facts, at least not without being insulted in return.

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## araz

fjavaid said:


> yes first we heard that PAF will be having its hand on J10A..then came the news the whole deal is scraped ...n now this ....
> personally i dont think PAK-china relationship works this way of bringing unit cost down ...it is also rumored that PAF has its input even for J10 A ....so may be there's a whole new side of story
> 
> as PESA's are concerned its been widely seen n discussed on PDF n other forum (J10 & J-11 )..
> 
> i wont be jumping a lot until some credible news comes into light ..


You may remember that pshamim saheb reported some time back that there were some differences on the unit cost with PAFwanting to pay28million vs a demand for 40 million per unit. My post had that aspect in mind. Sometimes it helps to remind people that there are additional options still open. Relations aside this is basic negotiations.
Araz

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## Black Eagle 90

I am sure that there are some changes to the plan as J-31 availability as well as similarity in terms of engines will result that J-31 will be winning the contract. Also PAF used to quote that the plane they are acquiring has some stealthy features and then they just smile away.....

Which was preety fishy.....


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## Super Falcon

well i doubt J 10 in pakistan airforce due to from last 8 years we are just hearing about them not included


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## nomi007




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## truthlover

FC 20 is the advanced version of J-10 equipped with western avionics.It is just made for the PAF.I think it will be a cool fighter jet in our inventory.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

truthlover said:


> FC 20 is the advanced version of J-10 equipped with western avionics.It is just made for the PAF.I think it will be a cool fighter jet in our inventory.



Exactly which "western avionics"... cause EU has banned sophisticated tech transfer to China... please enlighten us.


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## truthlover

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Exactly which "western avionics"... cause EU has banned sophisticated tech transfer to China... please enlighten us.



A long time ago i have read about that somewhere no i can,t remember where exactly but it,s avionics are going to be more advanced than J-10.FC-20 is the only export variant of J-10.EU may banned sophisticated tech transfer to china but we are capable of assembling those avionics by ourselves in kamra factory.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

truthlover said:


> A long time ago i have read about that somewhere no i can,t remember where exactly but it,s avionics are going to be more advanced than J-10.FC-20 is the only export variant of J-10.EU may banned sophisticated tech transfer to china but we are capable of assembling those avionics by ourselves in kamra factory.



Go through the thread before commenting..

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## Storm Force

Truth LOVER.

PLEASE EXPLAIN with examples 

this comment 



> EU may banned sophisticated tech transfer to china but we are capable of assembling those avionics by ourselves in kamra factory.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...role-fighter-air-craft-458.html#ixzz2b1OQ4q00



ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL US PAKISTAN makes superior radars/eccm, BVR missles and jammers THAN CHENGDU & CHINA.

the last time PAK tried to strike a deal for FRENCH RC400 radars & mica BVRS the french quoted over $1 billion for 120 thunders AND the deal collapsed.

EURO TECH is beyond PAK budgets at present especially TO INTERGRATE on a non western FIGHTER

Your comments are making you look a bit childish since PAK/PAC makes exactly ZILCH in terms of radars eccms jammers etc and relys completely on imports from china & europe & USA.


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## Yzd Khalifa

That Guy said:


> Even worse.



You bet  

Magnificent performance of China Fighter Jet J-10


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## SQ8

Please keep commentary off the threads and into GHQ if you wish. Only posts relevant to the FC-20 are to be allowed here. 

Also, new members are requested to kindly use this search function below the twitter , facebook links on the top right corner.. to search for their queries first since they may have already been answered by many members in a very detailed manner before asking questions. Everybody likes to answer questions but when certain good answers already exist and have been given repeated times by more knowledgeable members( _and not those who carry titles of elite or senior but are colored blue, red or light blue_) they may not look up the thread again and you may get answers that are misleading at best.

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## Zarvan

Oscar said:


> Please keep commentary off the threads and into GHQ if you wish. Only posts relevant to the FC-20 are to be allowed here.
> 
> Also, new members are requested to kindly use this search function below the twitter , facebook links on the top right corner.. to search for their queries first since they may have already been answered by many members in a very detailed manner before asking questions. Everybody likes to answer questions but when certain good answers already exist and have been given repeated times by more knowledgeable members( _and not those who carry titles of elite or senior but are colored blue, red or light blue_) they may not look up the thread again and you may get answers that are misleading at best.


For past few days it is being reported that J-10 could be expected to arrive next year what do you have to say about it ?


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## Akasa

Zarvan said:


> For past few days it is being reported that J-10 could be expected to arrive next year what do you have to say about it ?



People here might want to keep an eye open later this year... just saying... perhaps Chengdu has another surprise...

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## Nishan_101

What SENIOR think? Should we forget J-10BS for PAF and instead think over J-31s induction in coming years which some people think that is a JV between PAC and SAC. As J-31 includes RD-93B engines similar to JF-17s...


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## Zarvan

SinoSoldier said:


> People here might want to keep an eye open later this year... just saying... perhaps Chengdu has another surprise...



I don't know about that but it seems Pakistan is going for J-10 really soon and @Nishan_101 we would not go for J-31 instead of J-10 we may go for J-31 but not in place of J-10 B


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## Dil Pakistan

Zarvan said:


> I don't know about that but it seems Pakistan is going for J-10 really soon and @Nishan_101 we would not go for J-31 instead of J-10 we may go for J-31 but not in place of J-10 B



I agree. Another reason for not going for J-31 at the moment will be, that, PAF would like the aircraft to get "matured", before inducting in PAF. 

PAF with limited budgets cannot induct the jets at very early stage in development.

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## Dil Pakistan

Storm Force said:


> Truth LOVER.
> 
> PLEASE EXPLAIN with examples
> 
> this comment
> 
> 
> 
> ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL US PAKISTAN makes superior radars/eccm, BVR missles and jammers THAN CHENGDU & CHINA.
> 
> the last time PAK tried to strike a deal for FRENCH RC400 radars & mica BVRS the french quoted over $1 billion for 120 thunders AND the deal collapsed.
> EURO TECH is beyond PAK budgets at present especially TO INTERGRATE on a non western FIGHTER
> 
> Your comments are making you look a bit childish since PAK/PAC makes exactly ZILCH in terms of radars eccms jammers etc and relys completely on imports from china & europe & USA.



The only reason that deal collapsed, French were drooling saliva for the $12B deal with India rather than $2B with Pakistan. Given the bad situation of French economy, it is very simple to understand (if one does not have a biased brain). 

However, we now know that Indian economy has nose-dived to a GDP of only* 4.4%*, investors pulling out of India, corruption rampant everywhere and (last but not the least) a criminal Mr Moodi (ex-CM of Gujarat) is nominated to become the PM.

Good luck India.


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## Donatello

Zarvan said:


> For past few days it is being reported that J-10 could be expected to arrive next year what do you have to say about it ?



Oh bhai,

The problem with J-10 is that PAF doesn't have the funds right now. It might have them in the future depending on how Nawaz Sharif manages the finances. Take a simple example, even if Pakistan can increase tax collection by just 1-2 billion $ in the next fiscal year, and then after that, that is massive amount of money and PAF can easily purchase J-10s. 

As i have stated over here, the problem is not that Pakistan cannot get J-10, but the finances. China is more than happy to sell to Pakistan what it needs and above all the Chinese have always delivered on time. This is not like India's MMRCA that we have been hearing about i don't know since i was born and the deal is still not signed yet.

If Pakistan signs for J-10B, rest assured it will land in Pakistan when Pakistan wants it. But we need the money first.

That's it.


So if you want to see j-10 or what ever in PAF, please ask the fellow Pakistanis to play their due part in the growth of the country.

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## SQ8

Zarvan said:


> For past few days it is *being reported* that J-10 could be expected to arrive next year what do you have to say about it ?



Where has this been reported?


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## Zarvan

@Donatello @Oscar when a month ago paf chief met nawaz it was decided par would go for up gradation and future plans despite the bad economy and than wnye along with PAF and navy officers visit china


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## SQ8

Zarvan said:


> @Donatello @Oscar when a month ago paf chief met nawaz it was decided par would go for up gradation and future plans despite the bad economy and than wnye along with PAF and navy officers visit china



Please quote the section where it specifically mentioned J-10.


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## Donatello

Zarvan said:


> @Donatello @Oscar when a month ago paf chief met nawaz it was decided par would go for up gradation and future plans despite the bad economy and than wnye along with PAF and navy officers visit china



As Oscar aptly replied,as well the fact that Pakistan's senior officers routinely go to China.

The only issue here is funds. Frankly, i wouldn't want to spend more on Airforce right now. We need to invest in tax collection measures.

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## fatman17

Sunday, September 15, 2013

*The Status of J-10 project *


As China&#8217;s first advance indigenous fighter jet project, the J-10 program is one of the most important program of PLA. The most recent variant of J-10B made its first maiden flight in December of 2008, but CAC has been producing J-10A as recent as first half of this year.

Most recently, news came out of Chinese bbs that the first batch of production J-10Bs have started to make test flights. This news was not surprising since we had already seen pictures of J-10B production units inside CAC factory a couple of months ago. At the current rate, this first batch of J-10B should be delivered to the first regiment by the end of the year. Even though a lot of us were hoping that J-10B would be able to go into service by the end of 2011, it has taken 5 years for this to happen. 

When it goes into service, J-10B should be equipped with a new generation of integrated electronics systems consisting of PLAAF&#8217;s first fighter jet AESA radar, IRST, EW suite and new software architecture. J-10B is likely to serve as a testbed for various new technologies for J-20. In terms of engine, it will still be some version of AL-31FN for the first batch. AL-31FN has been improving with each batch, so it&#8217;s unknown if these new engines will bring additional thrust needed to carry the likely greater payload. There is also a speculated J-10C variant that is rumoured to make first flight later this year. It will be interesting to see how this variant will be different from J-10B.

As J-10A program draws to a close, the question we get is often how many are actually in service. We know that they have one PLANAF regiment of 24 J-10s. There are also 12 J-10AY and J-10SY serving at the August First Aerobatic Demonstration Team. Within PLAAF, there are 8 regiments (44th, 3rd, 2nd, 1st, 24th, 9th, 15th and 12th) of 28 aircraft each along with probably 16 to 24 J-10s serving with FTTC. Based on the above, there are around 280 J-10s of various J-10/A/S units in service. 

Posted by Feng at 3:06 PM

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Sunday, September 15, 2013
> 
> *The Status of J-10 project *
> 
> 
> As China&#8217;s first advance indigenous fighter jet project, the J-10 program is one of the most important program of PLA. The most recent variant of J-10B made its first maiden flight in December of 2008, but CAC has been producing J-10A as recent as first half of this year.
> 
> Most recently, news came out of Chinese bbs that the first batch of production J-10Bs have started to make test flights. This news was not surprising since we had already seen pictures of J-10B production units inside CAC factory a couple of months ago. At the current rate, this first batch of J-10B should be delivered to the first regiment by the end of the year. Even though a lot of us were hoping that J-10B would be able to go into service by the end of 2011, it has taken 5 years for this to happen.
> 
> When it goes into service, J-10B should be equipped with a new generation of integrated electronics systems consisting of PLAAF&#8217;s first fighter jet AESA radar, IRST, EW suite and new software architecture. J-10B is likely to serve as a testbed for various new technologies for J-20. In terms of engine, it will still be some version of AL-31FN for the first batch. AL-31FN has been improving with each batch, so it&#8217;s unknown if these new engines will bring additional thrust needed to carry the likely greater payload. There is also a speculated J-10C variant that is rumoured to make first flight later this year. It will be interesting to see how this variant will be different from J-10B.
> 
> As J-10A program draws to a close, the question we get is often how many are actually in service. We know that they have one PLANAF regiment of 24 J-10s. There are also 12 J-10AY and J-10SY serving at the August First Aerobatic Demonstration Team. Within PLAAF, there are 8 regiments (44th, 3rd, 2nd, 1st, 24th, 9th, 15th and 12th) of 28 aircraft each along with probably 16 to 24 J-10s serving with FTTC. Based on the above, there are around 280 J-10s of various J-10/A/S units in service.
> 
> Posted by Feng at 3:06 PM



An interesting thought. What has impeded their progress to this extent? 5 yrs is a reasonably long time to induct what is essentially a slightly developed model of an earlier plane? 
Araz


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## VelocuR

I suspect that Pakistan decide to drop the balls on J-10B to increase the inventories of F-16 Block 52.


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## airomerix

RaptorRX707 said:


> I suspect that Pakistan decide to drop the balls on J-10B to increase the inventories of F-16 Block 52.



Will be terrible to do so. J-10 is the future dominator of the Asian airspace. Shouldnt miss it.


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## araz

airomerix said:


> Will be terrible to do so. J-10 is the future dominator of the Asian airspace. Shouldnt miss it.



Its all about tbe capabilities gained vs the cost. PAF tends to get the best it can out of the chinese products. I suspect it will waitrfor the WS10 to mature and we will hear some news around 2014-5 with delivery in 2017-18.There is another thing that this article mentioned which is the C version. Is that what we now want. I remain convinced that we will give the B a miss. Whether we set the marker for C or go for a stealthy platform is to be seen. The reason I feel is financial. 
Araz

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## Kompromat

@araz

I think, PAF will wait for the J-31 to mature up, will work on finishing up the JF-17 delivery.

Both jets use the same class of engines which maybe a huge selling point for the J-31, when the WS-13 finally reaches production.

J-10B seems to be on the brink of being axed AFAIC


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## That Guy

RaptorRX707 said:


> I suspect that Pakistan decide to drop the balls on J-10B to increase the inventories of F-16 Block 52.



I suspect the opposite. PAF has increasingly started to look for excuses to actually put off buying more F-16s, simply because they're looking at the long term implications. They'll wait for the J-10, and delay any decision on the F-16s as much as they can. Remember, we still have 1-2 years more to go, there is still time for China to deliver on it's promise of the J-10Bs.


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## That Guy

Aeronaut said:


> @araz
> 
> I think, PAF will wait for the J-31 to mature up, will work on finishing up the JF-17 delivery.
> 
> Both jets use the same class of engines which maybe a huge selling point for the J-31, when the WS-13 finally reaches production.
> 
> J-10B seems to be on the brink of being axed AFAIC



I'd say they're more interested in the J-20 than they are of the J-31. Take a look at this little excerpt;



> "However, The meeting is welcome for Pakistan, of course, he said, as it maintains and enhances the cordial relations that exist between the countries, and no doubt there were discussions on provision of equipment and systems that neither side is going to divulge.
> 
> *Pakistan, though, has some clear requirements, but is hampered in being unable to acquire them due to lack of finances.
> 
> The main items that Pakistan is interested in are combat ships and warplanes, notably the fifth-generation Chinese fighter, the J-20, but we are talking serious money, here, and at the moment Pakistan cannot afford to enter into a major commitment, and will have to keep the [US-supplied] F-16s flying for a long time yet, Cloughley said.
> 
> Nevertheless, Cloughley believes there are aspects of materiel cooperation  mainly in ammunition and electronics  that will continue to prosper.*
> 
> For Pakistan therefore, Cloughley thinks the talks, and wider Sino-Pakistani relationship, are of critical importance.
> 
> The defense link is a most important one for Pakistan, and it can be expected that Islamabad will work hard to keep it smooth and worthwhile for both parties, he said.
> 
> China and Pakistan Begin Biannual Air Exercise Shaheen 2 | Defense News | defensenews.com



Clearly, money is a problem, but so is the timeframe. Pakistan can't even consider buying any 5th gen, simply because it will take another 10 years to complete development, and another 3-5 years to meet PLAAF minimum inventory requirements. This means that Pakistan will have to wait at least 13-15 years before getting any 5th gen. Until then, Pakistan needs a high tech place holders, and the JF-17 isn't capable enough to meet the requirements of a high tech place holder. This means that Pakistan will either buy F-16s, or it will wait for China to finish development on the J-10Bs and then buy them. Remember, we still have a deadline of 2014-15 for the J-10s, so there is still time for Pakistan to get these fighters into it's inventory soon.


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## SQ8

That Guy said:


> I'd say they're more interested in the J-20 than they are of the J-31. Take a look at this little excerpt;



What would be the doctrinal justification for that purchase? Specifically for a long range interceptor/strike fighter?

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## Dillinger

Oscar said:


> What would be the doctrinal justification for that purchase? Specifically for a long range interceptor/strike fighter?



Well PAF will eventually have to acquire a LO platform, no?


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## That Guy

Oscar said:


> What would be the doctrinal justification for that purchase? Specifically for a long range interceptor/strike fighter?



Beats me, I'm not saying that I understand the logic behind it, but it is obvious that the PAF is looking at the J-20. I think it may have to do with deep strike capabilities, a fighter that's able to go deep in enemy territory and take out ground targets. India has had this capability for a while with it's Flankers, but Pakistan does not. It might be a situation where the PAF feels that it has to bridge the gap between the two nations, if not by number, than by capability.

Again, I'm not a air force expert and I'm just talking out of my ***, so don't take me seriously at all.


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## That Guy

Dillinger said:


> Well PAF will eventually have to acquire a LO platform, no?



LO? I'm not familiar with military lingo, please explain. If you mean low observability, it could easily go with the J-31, because unlike the J-20, the J-31 is a corporate funded platform, and would be available for export on day 1. So the question is, why the J-20 over the J-31, or vice versa?

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## Dillinger

That Guy said:


> LO? I'm not familiar with military lingo, please explain. If you mean low observability, it could easily go with the J-31, because unlike the J-20, the J-31 is a corporate funded platform, and would be available for export on day 1. So the question is, why the J-20 over the J-31, or vice versa?



J-31 is more likely. It will fit into the PAF's operational doctrine neatly. The PAF has been shy of operating heavy platforms and understandably so. At the end of the day though a LO/VLO platform is always going to be maintenance intensive- far more so than any of the cutting edge 4.5 gen fighters for eg. RVRs which will required to check on the LO integrity of the AC and ensure that no deviation has occurred among many other things. 

Yup, LO=Low observable


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## RAMPAGE

Dillinger said:


> J-31 is more likely. It will fit into the PAF's operational doctrine neatly. The PAF has been shy of operating heavy platforms and understandably so. At the end of the day though a LO/VLO platform is always going to be maintenance intensive- far more so than any of the cutting edge 4.5 gen fighters for eg. RVRs which will required to check on the LO integrity of the AC and ensure that no deviation has occurred among many other things.
> 
> Yup, LO=Low observable


yara imo PAF will go with J-31's and PN should replace its Mirage 5's with J-20's.


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## PakShaheen79

I think for now it will be J-10A, if not J-10B as J-31 is good 13-15 years away as mentioned by someone above. Even if PLAAF does not induct it, it is good 8-10 years away. J-10B is getting momentum and as we know the timeline for its induction in PAF is Post 2014, i.e. 2015-16. So, it looks like that high ups of PAF and Pakistan military are pushing the Chinese to make J-10Bs (or J-10As) ready for their requirements ASAP so that they remain within the timeline. Remember, back in 2006, when it was originally decided that Pakistan will get FC-20, timeline was set 2014-15 ... and J-10As were flying since few time back then and I was used to think that this long delay to induct J-10s into PAF is due to PLAAF's own requirements. But when in 2008, J-10Bs surfaced, everything changed. People start to ask, what FC-20 actually is? And now it all makes complete sense. Back in 2006, no one wants to tell that world that CAC is working on an advanced version of the jet for PAF, so they came up with the name FC-20 just to keep everyone guessing. Till 2008, everyone believed that it was J-10A but know no one can say with complete certainty what it is  and in 2006, there was no sign of anything like J-20 or J-31 as these were top secret Chinese projects.

So, by connecting all the dots, J-10A with WS-10 or J-10B, qualify as being FC-20 and only planes able to be inducted in Post 2014-15 timeline.... else F-16s remain the only option to fill the gap before J-31 gets FOC and ready for export.

Now coming towards issue of funds, Sometimes it perplex me that if today we cannot afford J-10s, what makes us so sure that PAF will be able to fund a project like J-31 if we axe J-10? J-31 would be much expensive than J-10s.



RAMPAGE said:


> yara imo PAF will go with J-31's and PN should replace its Mirage 5's with J-20's.




Yeah, those certainly need replacement but with something like J-11.

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## RAMPAGE

PakShaheen79 said:


> Yeah, those certainly need replacement but with something like J-11.


Why J-11 ?


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## That Guy

Dillinger said:


> J-31 is more likely. It will fit into the PAF's operational doctrine neatly. The PAF has been shy of operating heavy platforms and understandably so. At the end of the day though a LO/VLO platform is always going to be maintenance intensive- far more so than any of the cutting edge 4.5 gen fighters for eg. RVRs which will required to check on the LO integrity of the AC and ensure that no deviation has occurred among many other things.
> 
> Yup, LO=Low observable



True, but I've been noticing (again, I'm talking out of my ***) that the PAF is actually changing it's doctrine. It's slowly going from a force that's capable of defence, to one that wants to have the capabilities to conduct offensive operations, such as deep strike missions and as we know, twin engine long range fighters are the best way of achieving that. The J-31 doesn't provide such capabilities, while the J-20 does.


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## Gentelman

RAMPAGE said:


> Why J-11 ?



I don't guess you are serious about J-20 induction in PN
what would be it's role in PN??
we just need a good dogfight fighter with enough hard points to threaten enemy combat ships from advancing and fullfill pattolling roles along with cheap and easy maintanance
J-11 is also not economical but is a good punch
I dont think PN can go for J-11 either
maybe JFT block 2 will be replacing Mairages with some Electronic warfare improvements i.e IRST etc
J-31 maybe but not before 2040+ coz if PAF would want them they would have a requirement and improvement list on board for chineese to work on

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## RAMPAGE

@Gentelman 

Meri jaan PN will get greater range, stealth and high speed also by the time we retire the Mirages, the J-11 will be quite an old technology !!!

And what was the 2040 part ???


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## Gentelman

RAMPAGE said:


> @Gentelman
> 
> Meri jaan PN will get greater range, stealth and high speed also by the time we retire the Mirages, the J-11 will be quite an old technology !!!
> 
> And what was the 2040 part ???



and for what you need such yech?? 
Currentely PN don't even have their own fighter squardron and you are talking about stealth??
Seriously??
Maybe such fighters could be useful if PN opreates an aircraft carrier&#8230;
which we don't need 
for main patrolling and antiship role along with Search & rescue PN is using P3-Cs and ATR-72 is also subjected to be used with antiships missiles & deapth charges while other squardron is fighter in which currentely we have Mairages and in future there would be JFT or maybe luckily J-11s
noone is getting stealth jets before 2030&#8230;&#8230;wanna bet??
2040 was maybe a mistake&#8230;&#8230;


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## subanday

@RAMPAGE 
Gentleman ko "Meri Jaan" ap nay profile pic ki waja se to nae kaha ? 



RAMPAGE said:


> @Gentelman
> 
> Meri jaan PN will get greater range, stealth and high speed also by the time we retire the Mirages, the J-11 will be quite an old technology !!!
> 
> And what was the 2040 part ???


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## RAMPAGE

subanday said:


> @RAMPAGE
> Gentleman ko "Meri Jaan" ap nay profile pic ki waja se to nae kaha ?


Us sai pooch lo na !!!


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## Dillinger

That Guy said:


> True, but I've been noticing (again, I'm talking out of my ***) that the PAF is actually changing it's doctrine. It's slowly going from a force that's capable of defence, to one that wants to have the capabilities to conduct offensive operations, such as deep strike missions and as we know, twin engine long range fighters are the best way of achieving that. The J-31 doesn't provide such capabilities, while the J-20 does.



What makes you think that the PAF can't conduct strikes? This may offend you but it is true that at the moment the PAF will most likely last no more than 3-4 weeks or so in a conventional conflict BUT in those 3-4 weeks I will see my countries economy reduced QUITE considerably (and we are not talking flight of oversees capital due to uncertainty generated by war, I am referring to something of a more permanent and *IRREVERSIBLE* nature). So do the math. Now if you mean striking a city like Kolkata then yes the PAF does not maintain strike capabilities to go in that deep nor will it for the foreseeable decade or two.

The J-31 will fit into the role quite snugly. IF someone still wants to fit in a J-20 or something as heavy as a J-15/11 then they need to realize that the contrary to popular belief the PAF is NOT changing its operational doctrine drastically. Comments and analysis do not equal what the PAF envisages as doable and/or necessary. What the PAF wants is capability up-gradation across its existing operational envelope so as to remain relevant and hard hitting in the times to come.


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## That Guy

Dillinger said:


> What makes you think that the PAF can't conduct strikes? This may offend you but it is true that at the moment the PAF will most likely last no more than 3-4 weeks or so in a conventional conflict BUT in those 3-4 weeks I will see my countries economy reduced QUITE considerably (and we are not talking flight of oversees capital due to uncertainty generated by war, I am referring to something of a more permanent and *IRREVERSIBLE* nature). So do the math. Now if you mean striking a city like Kolkata then yes the PAF does not maintain strike capabilities to go in that deep nor will it for the foreseeable decade or two.
> 
> The J-31 will fit into the role quite snugly. IF someone still wants to fit in a J-20 or something as heavy as a J-15/11 then they need to realize that the contrary to popular belief the PAF is NOT changing its operational doctrine drastically. Comments and analysis do not equal what the PAF envisages as doable and/or necessary. What the PAF wants is capability up-gradation across its existing operational envelope so as to remain relevant and hard hitting in the times to come.



Nothing to be offended over, I did mention that I was talking out of my ***. I know little to nothing about the air force.


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## Dillinger

That Guy said:


> Nothing to be offended over, I did mention that I was talking out of my ***. I know little to nothing about the air force.



The JF-17 is a good example of this doctrine, it does not increase the operational envelope in terms of range or persistence (which does impose its on penalties in terms of things that you can do) BUT within the ambit of its combat radius and envisaged roles it brings in an appreciable quantum of multi-role capabilities (going from being an ADGE and AEW&C assisted CAP/Air-defense aircaft to a maritime strike aircraft within its CR). THAT is what the PAF wants. The reason for that is quite simple, warfare is NOT platform centric but rather network centric (I repeat this mantra quite often but people rarely dig in to find what it means)- so ponder upon this- can a JF-17 intercept a MKI while being vectored in by a capable ADGE, why not?

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## That Guy

Dillinger said:


> The JF-17 is a good example of this doctrine, it does not increase the operational envelope in terms of range or persistence (which does impose its on penalties in terms of things that you can do) BUT within the ambit of its combat radius and envisaged roles it brings in an appreciable quantum of multi-role capabilities (going from being an ADGE and AEW&C assisted CAP/Air-defense aircaft to a maritime strike aircraft within its CR). THAT is what the PAF wants. The reason for that is quite simple, warfare is NOT platform centric but rather network centric (I repeat this mantra quite often but people rarely dig in to find what it means)- so ponder upon this- can a JF-17 intercept a MKI while being vectored in by a capable ADGE, why not?



Again, I know little to nothing about the air force, so I really have no arguments to make. I was just hazarding a guess.

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## Dillinger

That Guy said:


> Again, I know little to nothing about the air force, so I really have no arguments to make. I was just hazarding a guess.



We all hazard guesses and think upon possibilities. In case of the latter- I am counting on you folks losing to the TTP so that I can poach a few of your compatriots and bring them over here- something they will not be amenable to in the current circumstances- YET.


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## Kompromat

@That Guy

J-20 for Pakistan? - get real !

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## SQ8

Dillinger said:


> Well PAF will eventually have to acquire a LO platform, no?


Yes, but..


That Guy said:


> Beats me, I'm not saying that I understand the logic behind it, but it is obvious that the PAF is looking at the J-20.



How is that obvious for the J-20 and not a smaller platform like the J-31?

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## Irfan Baloch

Oscar said:


> How is that obvious for the J-20 and not a smaller platform like the J-31?



.. Beats Me???

or even better, how come jump to J-20 when we dont even have to dosh for J-10 yet? (response above)


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## SQ8

Dillinger said:


> Well PAF will eventually have to acquire a LO platform, no?





Irfan Baloch said:


> .. Beats Me???
> 
> or even better, how come jump to J-20 when we dont even have to dosh for J-10 yet? (response above)



Even if there is a jump, I certainly doubt it will be to the J-20. The wait is for the Chinese to mature their medium weight LO fighter, of which two types were reported to be in the works in 2011. The J-31 is one of them, and the other will remains to be seen if it was anything but a rumour or proposal.

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## That Guy

Oscar said:


> Yes, but..
> 
> 
> How is that obvious for the J-20 and not a smaller platform like the J-31?



Considering that we've heard more about the PAF regarding the J-20 than the J-31, I'd say they're more interested in the J-20.

It doesn't even matter though, they can't afford to buy either, so this conversation is pointless.



Aeronaut said:


> @That Guy
> 
> J-20 for Pakistan? - get real !



Oh, totally. I agree with you, I've said it plenty of times in multiple threads, including this one, PAF won't get the J-20. All I did was mention that they're interested in the J-20, not that they're going to buy it (which they can't).


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## rockstar08

i am new here , i just have one question " when pakistan is getting those birds ? can anyone give an exact year ?


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## PiyaraPakistan

rockstar08 said:


> i am new here , i just have one question " when pakistan is getting those birds ? can anyone give an exact year ?



Welcome, after reading and analysing all the discussions from senior members following are my assumptions

1. FC20 or relevent Not before 2015
2. J-31 or J-20 Not Before 2025

No one will tell you the exact year. but dont worry AF planners are well aware about the future threats and requirement.
Just keep reading senior members.


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## PakShaheen79

RAMPAGE said:


> Why J-11 ?



Because J-11 

- is Available
-Provides range, payload and greater thrust over dense air of sea surface
- is affordable by PAF
- All integrated weapons would be available 

J-20 is too young, and I am sure it hasn't flown over sea even once by now.J-20 will be very expensive for PAF/PN



RAMPAGE said:


> Why J-11 ?



Because J-11 

- is Available
-Provides range, payload and greater thrust over dense air of sea surface
- is affordable by PAF
- All integrated weapons would be available 

J-20 is too young, and I am sure it hasn't flown over sea even once by now.J-20 will be very expensive for PAF/PN


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## Black Eagle 90

PakShaheen79 said:


> Because J-11
> 
> - is Available
> -Provides range, payload and greater thrust over dense air of sea surface
> - is affordable by PAF
> - All integrated weapons would be available
> 
> J-20 is too young, and I am sure it hasn't flown over sea even once by now.J-20 will be very expensive for PAF/PN
> 
> 
> 
> Because J-11
> 
> - is Available
> -Provides range, payload and greater thrust over dense air of sea surface
> - is affordable by PAF
> - All integrated weapons would be available
> 
> J-20 is too young, and I am sure it hasn't flown over sea even once by now.J-20 will be very expensive for PAF/PN



I think we all should be clear that PN is quite happy with JF-17. And PAF-Naval wing would love to have 30 JF-17 Block-IIs and 30-35 JF-17 Block-IIIs in their fleet soon.


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## rockstar08

when pak is getting j-10s ? ? dont you think it been long time that this news was revealed ? ? plus i still dont see any news on Chinese submarines


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## Rocky rock

OH! come on guys! stop this day dreamin! we don't have enough money to run our governmental organizations...and here u guys are talkin about j-10 j20 etc>?? except wastin time on this debate do something in real life to make ur country stand with other's ALLAH Bless Pakistan!


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## MastanKhan

Irfan Baloch said:


> .. Beats Me???
> 
> or even better, how come jump to J-20 when we dont even have to dosh for J-10 yet? (response above)



Irfan Baloch,

A senior member now---surprised-----. I think you should apply for PDF VETERAN club .


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## PiyaraPakistan

*when pak is getting j-10s ? ? dont you think it been long time that this news was revealed ? ? plus i still dont see any news on Chinese submarines *
Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...role-fighter-air-craft-461.html#ixzz2fJVYnmq8

*@rockstar08*
Yup Brother its almost decade old news but try to understand that PAF has limited resources and whenever they feel that time has come to counter Indian or any of their adversary&#8217;s move they will induct a platform according to their up-to-date requirement, it&#8217;s not like window shopping that you like a plane and get it it&#8217;s about long term planning and many other factors.

I think 50% is the same case with subs + only one sub is produced till to date for which Pakistan is interested which is still in quarantine/ under test + china is offering an old version but Pakistan is not interested in it.

Again i will request you to read senior members in relevant threads, Thanks to all the seniors for their input and knowledge sharing.


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## PiyaraPakistan

self delete


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## That Guy

rockstar08 said:


> when pak is getting j-10s ? ? dont you think it been long time that this news was revealed ? ? plus i still dont see any news on Chinese submarines



The deadline is 2014-15, don't be so impatient. They're still developing J-10B, so it may take a while. This is going to happen, just give it time.


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## DANGER-ZONE

That Guy said:


> *The deadline is 2014-15, don't be so impatient.* They're still developing J-10B, so it may take a while. *This is going to happen, just give it time.*



How you are so sure ? 
In the last Zuhai Airshow on of our high ranked PAF official spoken to Chinese media and told they they are not considering to induct J-10 at the moment and there are no plans either. Its very much like "OFF THE TABLE" and you are here giving deadlines about the induction. lol
We got no money and the only case where we can see J-10 becoming a part of PAF is when India will finalise MMRCA, which is also uncertain. So get real, and stop daydreaming.


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## Chak Bamu

Black Eagle 90 said:


> I think we all should be clear that PN is quite happy with JF-17. And PAF-Naval wing would love to have 30 JF-17 Block-IIs and 30-35 JF-17 Block-IIIs in their fleet soon.



The strongest case for a twin-engined behemoth for Pakistan is for protecting our airspace over the sea so that we do not allow enemy to disrupt our sea-lanes or intrude over our coast. JF-17 can not hope to match SU-27 and its derivatives in range, payload, and some other metrics. It just does not have the staying power. PN is so stressed that they would be happy with JF-17 for now. But I guarantee that they would be happier with Sukhois.

But the real question is whether Russia would allow China to export SU-27 derivatives to Pakistan? Their legitimate concerns can not be ignored for multiple reasons. So I suppose that for near to mid-term future PN would have to be 'happy' with JF-17.

Sorry to post this in J-10/FC-20 thread, but this issue comes up occasionally and it is important to post a reminder that there are serious problems with us getting any Sukhoi derivatives, and that JF-17 is not a magic bullet for every scenario, especially Naval.


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## Black Eagle 90

Chak Bamu said:


> The strongest case for a twin-engined behemoth for Pakistan is for protecting our airspace over the sea so that we do not allow enemy to disrupt our sea-lanes or intrude over our coast. JF-17 can not hope to match SU-27 and its derivatives in range, payload, and some other metrics. It just does not have the staying power. PN is so stressed that they would be happy with JF-17 for now. But I guarantee that they would be happier with Sukhois.
> 
> But the real question is whether Russia would allow China to export SU-27 derivatives to Pakistan? Their legitimate concerns can not be ignored for multiple reasons. So I suppose that for near to mid-term future PN would have to be 'happy' with JF-17.



Currently they are Happy with Mirage-Vs which is a single one... and will be happy with JF-17s


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## Chak Bamu

Black Eagle 90 said:


> Currently they are Happy with Mirage-Vs which is a single one... and will be happy with JF-17s



This is J-10/FC-20 thread. If you were to take this discussion else-where more appropriate, I would be happy to respond with some relevant questions.


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## rockstar08

can somebody tell me that Jf-17 and F-16 C/D block are 4th Gen air craft or 3rd ? ?
and what about chengdu j-10b ? world is going for 5th gen stealth planes we are using old tech


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## rockstar08

DANGER-ZONE said:


> How you are so sure ?
> In the last Zuhai Airshow on of our high ranked PAF official spoken to Chinese media and told they they are not considering to induct J-10 at the moment and there are no plans either. Its very much like "OFF THE TABLE" and you are here giving deadlines about the induction. lol
> We got no money and the only case where we can see J-10 becoming a part of PAF is when India will finalise MMRCA, which is also uncertain. So get real, and stop daydreaming.





yeah i agree with you.. its been long we are only listening about weapons inducting by pak army , navy and airforce but nothing new is inducted in last few years  
i.e : chinese subs , tipu (icbm) , Gauri and shaheen with better range , chengdu j-10b, even we still dont have babur II 

how you guys think to counter mighty indian inventory ? i think we are only lions on paper and words .. and some of peoples like imran khan thinks we should destroy USA drones and go for war with USA

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## Dillinger

rockstar08 said:


> yeah i agree with you.. its been long we are only listening about weapons inducting by pak army , navy and airforce but nothing new is inducted in last few years
> i.e : chinese subs , tipu (icbm) , Gauri and shaheen with better range , chengdu j-10b, even we still dont have babur II
> 
> how you guys think to counter mighty indian inventory ? i think we are only lions on paper and words .. and some of peoples like imran khan thinks we should destroy USA drones and go for war with USA



The reason that those systems you have mentioned have not been stepped upon at break neck speed is that they are not strictly required. The PAF is no "paper tiger" in the least and can do the job that it is meant to. How long it can sustain the momentum and operations is another matter. As I had told your compatriot @That Guy warfare is not contingent upon just platforms in isolation- the PAF Is trying to make the best out of the resources available to it- AND it can very much inflict some rather serious damage to my nation if required. Win the "war", so to say, it cannot.


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## air marshal

*Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group to produce 1,200 J-10 fighters*

Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group will produce a total of 1,200 J-10 fighters for the PLA Force to counter F-16 fighters over the Taiwan Strait and Western Pacific, according to our sister paper Want Daily.

The Moscow-based Voice of Russia says the J-10A uses the Lyulka-Saturn AL-31FN turbofan engine imported from Russia due to difficulties in the development of China's WS-10 Taihang engine. The newer J-10B variant will be fitted with the Taihang engine.

Geng Ruguang, senior vice president of China Aviation Industry Corporation, said the development of the J-10, Taihang engine and PL-12 air-to-air missile shows China has become the fourth nation in the world to design and produce its own advanced fighter.

Geng said the J-10B's active phased array airborne radar enables the fighter to track six targets and engage four of them simultaneously. Geng also said the J-10's radar system can also lock on to US F-16 and Japanese F-2 fighters without difficulty. Furthermore, the PL-12 air-to-air missile designed for the J-10 boasts similar specs to the US-built AIM-120 air-to-air missile used by the F-16A/B fighters of Taiwan's air force.

Taiwan currently has 388 fighters, of which 145 are F-16A/Bs purchased from the United States. The imbalance in the size of the size of the fighter fleets on opposing sides of the Taiwan Strait is a matter of serious concern for Taiwan's security.

Between 2014 and 2015, 36 J-10B fighters will also be supplied to the Pakistan Air Force under the name FC-20.

Source: Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group to produce 1,200 J-10 fighters

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## That Guy

That Guy said:


> First of all, don't be a rude asshole.
> 
> Google it, it's a commonly known thing. PAF has no choice but to get these, it is not a matter of being off the table or money, it is a matter of time, nothing more.



Check out air marshal's post. @air marshal , thank you for proving my point.

So yeah, if you still don't believe me, then like I said before, google it.


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## Yeti

*Geng also said the J-10's radar system can also lock on to US F-16 and Japanese F-2 fighters without difficulty*


Propaganda, does not take into account upgrades. Very one sided statement which holds no merit considering the 2 planes have never even faced each other makes me believe it is utter bull.


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## Yeti

what about the RWR/ radar warning receiver on the F16 block 60 huh?


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## That Guy

Yeti said:


> *Geng also said the J-10's radar system can also lock on to US F-16 and Japanese F-2 fighters without difficulty*
> 
> 
> Propaganda, does not take into account upgrades. Very one sided statement which holds no merit considering the 2 planes have never even faced each other makes me believe it is utter bull.



Then again, Pakistan has a bunch of Block 52 F-16s, we don't know if PAF did or didn't allow Chinese engineers to take a look. This is not to mention that PAF may have been giving constant input to the Chinese to improve their system, especially considering that PAF is looking to buy the J-10Bs as a sanction proof alternative to the F-16s.



Yeti said:


> what about the RWR/ radar warning receiver on the F16 block 60 huh?



As for the Block 60, only the UAE uses the blk 60, the US itself doesn't operate the blk 60. There is little point in even mentioning the blk 60.


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## Yeti

That Guy said:


> Then again, Pakistan has a bunch of Block 52 F-16s, we don't know if PAF did or didn't allow Chinese engineers to take a look. This is not to mention that PAF may have been giving constant input to the Chinese to improve their system, especially considering that PAF is looking to buy the J-10Bs as a sanction proof alternative to the F-16s.
> 
> 
> 
> As for the Block 60, only the UAE uses the blk 60, the US itself doesn't operate the blk 60. There is little point in even mentioning the blk 60.




I always take Chinese articles with a little pinch of salt as they contain much propaganda, as the 2 fighters have never faced each other plus pilot skills will come into play also it is hard to say what the outcome could be.


Plus the US is going to be upgrading the US and Taiwan F-16 AESA Radar so who will lock who first? one can not say without them facing each other to be sure


Northrop Begins Work On F-16 AESA Radar Upgrade


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## That Guy

Yeti said:


> I always take Chinese articles with a little pinch of salt as they contain much propaganda, as the 2 fighters have never faced each other plus pilot skills will come into play also it is hard to say what the outcome could be.
> 
> 
> Plus the US is going to be upgrading the US and Taiwan F-16 AESA Radar so who will lock who first? one can not say without them facing each other to be sure
> 
> 
> Northrop Begins Work On F-16 AESA Radar Upgrade



In the end, we don't know much, now do we? Rejecting these claims is just as bad as believing them blindly. Never underestimate your rival.


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## Yeti

That Guy said:


> In the end, we don't know much, now do we? Rejecting these claims is just as bad as believing them blindly. Never underestimate your rival.




Point was the article is from a Chinese publication which will have some form of propaganda which is to be expected, I would still say the US is streets ahead and will always be so because by the time the Chinese catch up to its current level the Americans would have gone to a higher level so it will always be playing catch-up but that is my view which people may disagree with.


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## That Guy

Yeti said:


> Point was the article is from a Chinese publication which will have some form of propaganda which is to be expected, I would still say the US is streets ahead and will always be so because by the time the Chinese catch up to its current level the Americans would have gone to a higher level so it will always be playing catch-up but that is my view which people may disagree with.



Well, I'd argue that the article isn't claiming to be at the level of the US. This is especially true since the US is planning on phasing out the F-16 out and replacing it with the F-35. So to the US, the F-16 is old technology.

Remember, every propaganda piece has some semblance of truth in it. Even if it isn't as good as they claim, the article does have a point when it claims that Chinese technology is getting better and better, which is true.

Like I said before, rejecting something is just as bad as blindly believing it. We simply don't have the answers, and the truth is that we may never get them either. Until we do, we simply have to go by both what we're told and our critical thinking skills.

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## Yeti

That Guy said:


> Well, I'd argue that the article isn't claiming to be at the level of the US. This is especially true since the US is planning on phasing out the F-16 out and replacing it with the F-35. So to the US, the F-16 is old technology.
> 
> Remember, every propaganda piece has some semblance of truth in it. Even if it isn't as good as they claim, the article does have a point when it claims that Chinese technology is getting better and better, which is true.
> 
> Like I said before, rejecting something is just as bad as blindly believing it. We simply don't have the answers, and the truth is that we may never get them either. Until we do, we simply have to go by both what we're told and our critical thinking skills.



In your view you think Pakistan still needs the J10 considering China will be marketing the J-31 as an export Fighter in the future, it makes more sense for Pakistan to work on the JF block 3 and wait for this I would of thought.


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## That Guy

Yeti said:


> In your view you think Pakistan still needs the J10 considering China will be marketing the J-31 as an export Fighter in the future, it makes more sense for Pakistan to work on the JF block 3 and wait for this I would of thought.



From what I understand, PAF operates on a high-low doctrine, on the low end, PAF needs the JF-17 as the back bone for it's forces, and on the high end, it has the F-16s and needs the J-10s as force multipliers to counter India's number's superiority.

The J-31 will be available for export, yes, but that'll be around 2017-2020, and even then, we don't know if Pakistan's economy will have revived enough to be able to afford the J-31. PAF will only buy them when India starts getting FGFAs in large enough numbers to warrant a big enough threat, right now PAF is only interested in the J-31 and J-20 purely as a future possibility.


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## DANGER-ZONE

World Wide Web went the Zhuhai Airshow mission group reported consolidated reported on November 13, 2012, 9th Zhuhai air show is scheduled to carry out. On the morning of November 12, the plan chief in charge of the Pakistan Air Force JF-17 (CPD) Jie Weide General Ahmed (Javaid Ahmed), accepted a joint interview with the World Wide Web and Sohu.

Last Zhuhai air show demonstration team, the "lion" of Pakistan gave audience left a deep impression, and only three of this year's Zhuhai Air Show JF-17 fighter exhibitors. General Ahmad, Jie Weide gives explanation, "lion" demonstration team equipped K-8 is Pakistan's important trainer demonstration team pilots and most experienced instructors, now they are JF-17 pilots busy training new pilots, and therefore unable to attend the Airshow, but have the opportunity to "lion" demonstration team will come back to Zhuhai Air Show, but also to participate in the air show will offer the audience a wonderful aerobatic .

As chief executive of the JF-17 program, Jie Weide General Ahmed attended the whole "Fierce Dragon" design work. He said that Pakistan and Chengdu Aircraft Manufacturing Company co-operation is very smooth, designers working attitude and friendship has left a deep impression. "Fierce Dragon" since the since the equipment of the Pakistan Air Force, Pakistan Air Force is very pleased with its performance. More importantly, the bilateral cooperation in the development of the fighter is not only produced in China, also Pakistan's domestic production, is very beneficial to the development of the aviation industry in Pakistan. "Fierce Dragon" cost is very high, very competitive in the international competition on the market, which benefit not only China and Pakistan will also make benefit the country of purchase.

*Internet rumors of Pakistan will buy F-10 rumors, Jie Weide General Ahmed denied. He said that China and Pakistan jointly developed the "Fierce Dragon" has succeeded in equipment, but China and Pakistan is still on its continue to improve its ability to multitask further improve, and Pakistan is also working to improve the "Fierce Dragon" The degree of localization. He said that the Pakistan Air Force needs to bring together all the resources together so as to achieve better results. "Fierce Dragon" fighter performance, multi-tasking ability, can Pakistan's current operational needs, and improved still further. F -10 is also out of the hands of the Chengdu Aircraft Manufacturing Company, Pakistan Air Force its also a certain understanding of the Zhuhai Airshow also be able to see the excellent performance of the August flight demonstration team, the Pakistan Air Force know F -10 advanced technology performance, but in the next few years, Pakistan will not consider buying*.

Jie Weide General Ahmed said, "Fierce Dragon" fighter is the most advanced multi-role fighter of the Pakistan Air Force, but also a sign of the friendship between the peoples of China and Pakistan. Chinese Air Force and the aviation industry is a friend and role model of Pakistan Air Force and the aviation industry, Pakistan will remember the help of the Pakistan International Airlines.


Zhuhai Airshow, Jie Weide General Ahmed said the Zhuhai Airshow is a very important international air show, China's aviation strength of the external display platform, Pakistan Air Force external to show the image of the channel and building friendship. (Zhiyuan / Sukhoi)

(Google translation)

http://mil.huanqiu.com/aerospace/2012-11/3269529.html


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## Kompromat

@DANGER-ZONE @That Guy

Take it easy gents.


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## That Guy

Aeronaut said:


> @DANGER-ZONE @That Guy
> 
> Take it easy gents.



I'm trying.

I'm telling him to quit being rude. My replies tend to be emotion free, but I only get stirred up when someone attacks me personally.

I admit, calling him an a--hole may not have been the best idea, but you can't tell me that it was uncalled for.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Aeronaut said:


> @DANGER-ZONE @That Guy
> 
> Take it easy gents.



Tell me who crossed the lines ? Did i said anything abusive or was i rude to THAT GUY and you deleted my post as well where i post the news ? what's this bro, *Yahan bhe Pakistani qanoon chalta hai ?*

Bro there is nothing personal b/w you and me and i respect you a lot, but i got an Infraction once because of using a word "HOLY $HIT" just on an info and not pointing it to any member. Im going up for this. 
Nothing personal again ! and you can delete my post if you want.


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## That Guy

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Tell me who crossed the lines ? Did i said anything abusive or was i rude to THAT GUY and you deleted my post as well where i post the news ? what's this bro, Yahan bhe Pakistani qanoon chalta hai ?



Not to drag this any further, in fact, this is the LAST THING I'll say to address this issue, but you were being rude;

Quote



> How you are so sure ?
> In the last Zuhai Airshow on of our high ranked PAF official spoken to Chinese media and told they they are not considering to induct J-10 at the moment and there are no plans either. *Its very much like "OFF THE TABLE" and you are here giving deadlines about the induction. lol*
> We got no money and the only case where we can see J-10 becoming a part of PAF is when India will finalise MMRCA, which is also uncertain. *So get real, and stop daydreaming.*
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...role-fighter-air-craft-462.html#ixzz2fPvYS5An



That IS rude and abusive. I did not insult anyone before you decided to be so rude to me.

Anyways, this is the last thing I'll say on this subject. As far as I'm concerned, this matter is now closed and I will move as best I can. I suggest you do the same.


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## Kompromat

@DANGER-ZONE @That Guy

Can we get over it at once?


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## That Guy

Back to topic, @Aeronaut since I have your attention, I might as well ask; Do you think the J-10B is going to be inducted into PAF by 2014-15? Will it be delayed, or do you think that it's not going to happen at all and we'll be looking at other options?



Aeronaut said:


> @DANGER-ZONE @That Guy
> 
> Can we get over it at once?



Hey, I'm over it. I've already moved on.


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## Kompromat

That Guy said:


> Back to topic, @Aeronaut since I have your attention, I might as well ask; Do you think the J-10B is going to be inducted into PAF by 2014-15? Will it be delayed, or do you think that it's not going to happen at all and we'll be looking at other options?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, I'm over it. I've already moved on.



I think J-10B is going to be scrapped for another platform. This comes from a very reliable source [ex-VCAS]

@DANGER-ZONE

I have rebooted your post above after necessary editing.

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## That Guy

Aeronaut said:


> I think J-10B is going to be scrapped for another platform. This comes from a very reliable source [ex-VCAS]



Really now? What other platform could we see? Perhaps more F-16s? I highly doubt that It's a J-31, as it's still in early development and by the time the damn thing comes into production, we'll have been stuck on older systems for far too long.

Maybe, and this is just a random thought put out there, we may see J-11b? I know, ridiculous, but we did hear rumors a few years back that China had offered the planes to Pakistan, and PAF were interested in them.


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## Kompromat

That Guy said:


> Really now? What other platform could we see? Perhaps more F-16s? I highly doubt that It's a J-31, as it's still in early development and by the time the damn thing comes into production, we'll have been stuck on older systems for far too long.
> 
> Maybe, and this is just a random thought put out there, we may see J-11b? I know, ridiculous, but we did hear rumors a few years back that China had offered the planes to Pakistan, and PAF were interested in them.



I'd be surprised if we buy a new jet before 2018-2020. Just look at your finance book, PAF is in debt.

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## rockstar08

Dillinger said:


> The reason that those systems you have mentioned have not been stepped upon at break neck speed is that they are not strictly required. The PAF is no "paper tiger" in the least and can do the job that it is meant to. How long it can sustain the momentum and operations is another matter. As I had told your compatriot @That Guy warfare is not contingent upon just platforms in isolation- the PAF Is trying to make the best out of the resources available to it- AND it can very much inflict some rather serious damage to my nation if required. Win the "war", so to say, it cannot.





yaar i am not saying that our forces are bad or useless , but here lots of peoples think that we should go against USA and Nato , and for this they also criticize musharaf a lot ... they live in a fantasy world that we can defeat any country  
i know our forces are well enough to defend plus they gain lots of experience in WOT , that would be good for any future war but still we need war toys , we cant go with a sword in front of a tanks and fighter planes


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## Dillinger

rockstar08 said:


> yaar i am not saying that our forces are bad or useless , but here lots of peoples think that we should go against USA and Nato , and for this they also criticize musharaf a lot ... they live in a fantasy world that we can defeat any country
> i know our forces are well enough to defend plus they gain lots of experience in WOT , that would be good for any future war but still we need war toys , we cant go with a sword in front of a tanks and fighter planes



No one will be going with a sword in front of a tank. Nor does the PA/PAF not have equipment. Yes their modernization drive does stand jeopardized- they will have to make do with what they have for now. The only one cooky enough to take on a tank with a sword is my Butt bro @Armstrong, the jawaans of PA would rather do so with a Bakthar Shikan. 

As to Musharraf and taking on the US- Well you have a friend in @Secur on those matters. Don't get me wrong, I have no sympathy for the man but he did what was possible and viable at the moment- those who think otherwise should be carted off to Af to fight the ISAF.

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## rockstar08

Dillinger said:


> No one will be going with a sword in front of a tank. Nor does the PA/PAF not have equipment. Yes their modernization drive does stand jeopardized- they will have to make do with what they have for now. The only one cooky enough to take on a tank with a sword is my Butt bro @Armstrong, the jawaans of PA would rather do so with a Bakthar Shikan.
> 
> As to Musharraf and taking on the US- Well you have a friend in @Secur on those matters. Don't get me wrong, I have no sympathy for the man but he did what was possible and viable at the moment- those who think otherwise should be carted off to Af to fight the ISAF.




but we our politicians like imran khan and other mulla party should realize this huge gap in technology and weapons of USA ....
its true we can be threat to india cause india is still in our range but USA and european countries they are still not in range 
even if PA/PN and PAF adds one new items in their inventory that would be enough to scared enemies

PA = by 2015 they should have babur-2 ( with more range ) 
PN = they should have at least 2 chinese subs with SLCM 
PAF = they really have to get J-10b and Sams ( 36 j-10 will be fair enough ) and of they can manage to get few JF-17 that would be great


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## That Guy

Aeronaut said:


> I'd be surprised if we buy a new jet before 2018-2020. Just look at your finance book, PAF is in debt.



That's true, but the budget did increase, and the government did say they've made a commitment to continue modernizing the air force. So you think that we'll just stick to fulfilling the JF-17 order until we can get the economy back on track?


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## Kompromat

@That Guy

Budget increase was nothing but keeping up with the dollar vs rupee value desparity.

I don't see a new platform coming before 018-020. PAF wants push full steam ahead on the 'baby dragons' for now. Remember, its not just about inducting a jet but 'building,testing,certifying AND inducting' it.

JF-17 has changed our aviation industry in ways, we can't comprehend just yet. Its going to have long lasting ripple affect on our aviation industrial potential.

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## That Guy

Aeronaut said:


> @That Guy
> 
> Budget increase was nothing but keeping up with the dollar vs rupee value desparity.
> 
> I don't see a new platform coming before 018-020. PAF wants push full steam ahead on the 'baby dragons' for now. Remember, its not just about inducting a jet but 'building,testing,certifying AND inducting' it.
> 
> JF-17 has changed our aviation industry in ways, we can't comprehend just yet. Its going to have long lasting ripple affect on our aviation industrial potential.



True enough.


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## HAIDER

Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group will produce a total of 1,200 J-10 fighters for the PLA Force to counter F-16 fighters over the Taiwan Strait and Western Pacific, according to our sister paper Want Daily. 

The Moscow-based Voice of Russia says the J-10A uses the Lyulka-Saturn AL-31FN turbofan engine imported from Russia due to difficulties in the development of China's WS-10 Taihang engine. The newer J-10B variant will be fitted with the Taihang engine. 

Geng Ruguang, senior vice president of China Aviation Industry Corporation, said the development of the J-10, Taihang engine and PL-12 air-to-air missile shows China has become the fourth nation in the world to design and produce its own advanced fighter. 

Geng said the J-10B's active phased array airborne radar enables the fighter to track six targets and engage four of them simultaneously. Geng also said the J-10's radar system can also lock on to US F-16 and Japanese F-2 fighters without difficulty. Furthermore, the PL-12 air-to-air missile designed for the J-10 boasts similar specs to the US-built AIM-120 air-to-air missile used by the F-16A/B fighters of Taiwan's air force. 

Taiwan currently has 388 fighters, of which 145 are F-16A/Bs purchased from the United States. The imbalance in the size of the size of the fighter fleets on opposing sides of the Taiwan Strait is a matter of serious concern for Taiwan's security. 

_*Between 2014 and 2015, 36 J-10B fighters will also be supplied to the Pakistan Air Force under the name FC-20, *_


Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group to produce 1,200 J-10 fighters


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## siegecrossbow

J-10 training with Pakistanis Mirages:







What in the world is the JH-7 doing there???






Can't help but think if Pakistanis pilots are evaluating the J-10 during combat exercise.

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## Tacticool

Why J-10B have no air to air refueling probe?


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## razgriz19

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> Why J-10B have no air to air refueling probe?









"All chinese equipment (WS-10)" production version.

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## shanixee

J-10 aircraft not exported to Pakistan over license issue, says China | Terminal X

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## SBD-3

It appears that J-10B is back for more flight test. Note that serial number has been removed




More orders from PLANAF?

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## ANG

Defense News Mobile - Pakistan Deal for Chinese J-10 Fighters Uncertain

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## Gryphon

*Pakistan Deal for Chinese J-10 Fighters Uncertain*

October 9, 2013 | By _Wendell Minnick_ and _Usman Ansari_





Deal Delayed? Pakistan's economy and other factors will probably force the country to put off plans to buy J-10 fighters from China.

*TAIPEI AND ISLAMABAD* &#8212; Tough International Monetary Fund conditions on Pakistan and concerns about untested technology likely will delay Islamabad&#8217;s plan to buy 36 J-10B Vigorous Dragon multirole fighters from China under a $1.4 billion deal signed in 2009, analysts said.

Current economic conditions &#8220;preclude any possibility of acquiring new weapon systems in the next two to three years, at least,&#8221; said retired Pakistani Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail, a veteran fighter and test pilot who is now an independent military analyst in Lahore.

Under IMF loan terms, the government faces harsh conditions on raising revenue and controlling spending, including on military equipment.

A Chinese defense delegation visited Pakistan the last week of September to discuss the status of stalled defense deals. Whether this included the J-10 order is unclear.

The J-10B Super-10 is an advanced variant of the J-10A, first fielded in late 2003 with China&#8217;s Air Force. The new Super-10 will reportedly be powered by the Chinese-designed WS-10A turbofan engine, which will replace the J-10A&#8217;s Russian Saturn AL-31FN. Built by Chengdu Aircraft Industries, the jet is based on Israel&#8217;s Lavi indigenous fighter program by Israel Aerospace Industries that was canceled in 1987.

Even if a friendly Arab Gulf state provided financing, Tufail said more used Lockheed Martin F-16Cs from US stocks are preferable, &#8220;rather than trying out a new weapon system that is an unknown commodity in the realm of modern-day combat.&#8221;

Tufail questioned the wisdom of buying one squadron of J-10s.

To be cost effective &#8220;at least three to four squadrons would justify the additional wherewithal and maintenance facilities that would be needed,&#8221; he said.

Over-reliance on US high-technology equipment like fighters worries Pakistani officials, and while Tufail said diversification &#8220;be explored fully, with China and Russia as suitable sources,&#8221; in the case of the fighter, the government may not have another option.

Should a deal occur, however, Tufail foresees no problems with directly or indirectly acquiring Russian equipment such as the J-10&#8217;s AL-31FN engine.

The J-10B was first revealed to the public in early 2009. Images appearing on Chinese-language military websites indicate the J-10B had a new nose configuration with an infrared search and tracking system and a &#8220;new Diverterless Supersonic Intake configured engine air intake,&#8221; also seen on the Chengdu FC-1 Xiaolong (Fierce Dragon), which is co-produced in Pakistan as the JF-17 Thunder, said Richard Fisher, a senior fellow of Asian military affairs at the International Assessment and Strategy Center.

At least one prototype J-10B has featured the indigenous Shenyang-Liming WS-10A turbofan engine, but it remains to be seen whether all production J-10Bs will feature the WS-10A or the Russian Saturn AL-31F turbofan,&#8221; Fisher said.

&#8220;I think the JF-17 arrangement has been a workable one so far, and future weapon systems with core Russian and Chinese components can be acquired by the Pakistan Air Force on a similar basis, without difficulty,&#8221; Tufail said.

Russia allowed China to supply Pakistan the JF-17s Klimov RD-93 engine despite Indian opposition, and prospects have since improved.

&#8220;The thawing of Pak-Russo relations over the past few years is certainly a welcome development, and should help override Indian objections to any military cooperation between Pakistan and Russia,&#8221; Tufail said.

Technological advances may also scrap the J-10 deal.

Tufail believes the air force may be turning to the stealthy Chengdu J-20 though this is not presently &#8220;anything beyond a mere statement of intent.&#8221;

&#8220;It is a futuristic aircraft, not yet fully operational, and its capabilities are hardly known, so reading too much into this may be rather premature,&#8221; Tufail said.

The J-10B would offer Pakistan some advanced fourth generation capabilities.

&#8220;The canted nose cone immediately led to speculation that the J-10B also featured a new fixed antennae phased array radar and this was confirmed in 2011,&#8221; Fisher said. &#8220;There remains some speculation that this radar may be a &#8216;passive&#8217; versus an &#8216;active&#8217; electronically scanned array [AESA], but the key point is that the J-10B is clearly a 4+ generation fighter that also included upgraded cockpit systems and electronic warfare systems.&#8221;

But if Pakistan chooses not to become the first customer for an export configured J-10B, at $50-60 million per aircraft it will become attractive to countries like Venezuela, Argentina, Peru, Malaysia and Indonesia, who are looking for an affordable multi-role fighter, Fisher said.

Pakistan Deal for Chinese J-10 Fighters Uncertain | Defense News | defensenews.com


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## araz

This is similar to what we have been saying on the forum. There are two further connotations to discuss in relation to the acquisition of J10 by PAF. Firstly US governments willingness to provide F16s even old ones for MLU and reuse by PAF should PAF not be able to procure new ones. The subcondition would be the PAFs evaluation of threat of sanctions from US in the coming years and what other restrictions the US governemnt imposes.Thisis something that only the PAF can answer as the ordinary arm chair general will not be party to all the behind the scene negotiations. There is no doubt that there are F16s Bl 40/42s coccooned by USAF and PAF should be able to utilize the funds available to it to procure them. Even if PAF procures them from its own resources then it would be a cheaper choice of the two.
The other factor to consider is what the J10B provides now that the J31 would not provide 5-8 yrs from now. In other words and put simply can PAF wait 5-8 yrs and procure J321 which by then would be a much more potent and matured platform rahter than buy a half baked platform with unproven technology no matter how good it might seem on paper. Current financial difficulties of the indian economy means they are having to make changes as well which leaves PAF some time to consider its options and even allow the economy to improve which might improve our chances of procurement subsequently. 
As I said in my earlier post PAFF finds itself in a greater dilemma than the IAF with regards to its purchases for so many reasons. My own personal thoughts are that we should go down the BL42 route and give J10B a miss altogether , allowing us to save and procure/ invewst in J31 now for a better future.
Araz

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## 帅的一匹

araz said:


> This is similar to what we have been saying on the forum. There are two further connotations to discuss in relation to the acquisition of J10 by PAF. Firstly US governments willingness to provide F16s even old ones for MLU and reuse by PAF should PAF not be able to procure new ones. The subcondition would be the PAFs evaluation of threat of sanctions from US in the coming years and what other restrictions the US governemnt imposes.Thisis something that only the PAF can answer as the ordinary arm chair general will not be party to all the behind the scene negotiations. There is no doubt that there are F16s Bl 40/42s coccooned by USAF and PAF should be able to utilize the funds available to it to procure them. Even if PAF procures them from its own resources then it would be a cheaper choice of the two.
> The other factor to consider is what the J10B provides now that the J31 would not provide 5-8 yrs from now. In other words and put simply can PAF wait 5-8 yrs and procure J321 which by then would be a much more potent and matured platform rahter than buy a half baked platform with unproven technology no matter how good it might seem on paper. Current financial difficulties of the indian economy means they are having to make changes as well which leaves PAF some time to consider its options and even allow the economy to improve which might improve our chances of procurement subsequently.
> As I said in my earlier post PAFF finds itself in a greater dilemma than the IAF with regards to its purchases for so many reasons. My own personal thoughts are that we should go down the BL42 route and give J10B a miss altogether , allowing us to save and procure/ invewst in J31 now for a better future.
> Araz


I think PAF will go for J10B for sure.


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## 帅的一匹




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## 帅的一匹

http://bbs.tiexue.net/post2_6958439_1.html]
Number 1031 J10B carry four LRAAM with compound weapon mount and 2 ASRAAM&#65281;

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## 帅的一匹

From the number 1031 we can judge that at least 2 squadrons of J10B is inducted in PLAAF.


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## araz

wanglaokan said:


> I think PAF will go for J10B for sure.


My friend I would like to hear your reasons for your thoughts. My concern has always been about our financial state rather than the platform itself. The real question is whether china thinks it worth its while to provide PAF with the J10B as a deal which PAF simply cannot refuse.What advantage would it be to the chinese and what advantage does it give to the US to provide us with what we want. This is the equation which needs to be resolved before we can make our mind up.
Araz


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## airomerix

araz said:


> My friend I would like to hear your reasons for your thoughts. My concern has always been about our financial state rather than the platform itself. The real question is whether china thinks it worth its while to provide PAF with the J10B as a deal which PAF simply cannot refuse.What advantage would it be to the chinese and what advantage does it give to the US to provide us with what we want. This is the equation which needs to be resolved before we can make our mind up.
> Araz



Military build up is an essential task for every growing/developed economy. Especially if you're not located with Switzerland or some where in the middle of the pacific.


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## araz

airomerix said:


> Military build up is an essential task for every growing/developed economy. Especially if you're not located with Switzerland or some where in the middle of the pacific.



Yes but when an economy has gone"khudday line" like ours thanks to Zardari and the PPP idiots what do we do? Secondly it would be nice if you answered the question that I have posed. I really am clueless as to what the equilibrium point in this relationship is.
Araz


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## Nishan_101

The delay in acquisition of J-10BS from China might be because of the availability of J-31 till 2017 or it might be possible that PAC had joined the program as its share similar engines with JF-17s.


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## Informant

Nishan_101 said:


> The delay in acquisition of J-10BS from China might be because of the availability of J-31 till 2017 or it might be possible that PAC had joined the program as its share similar engines with JF-17s.



We are not acquiring stealth planes, not for a long long time. Stop your daydreams. We are not capable of handling 4.5 Gen with ease what makes you thing we can handle 5th Gen planes with care. The amount of training would take years upon years for the ground crew, then comes the actual maintainability/acquisition by the PAF.

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## airomerix

araz said:


> Yes but when an economy has gone"khudday line" like ours thanks to Zardari and the PPP idiots what do we do? Secondly it would be nice if you answered the question that I have posed. I really am clueless as to what the equilibrium point in this relationship is.
> Araz



The answers are very simple.

With the economy going khudday line, the yearly military budget is requiring an noticeable increase to off set the inflationary affect. Since the Pakistan requires are $6 Billion which used to make up 15% in 2005, today it makes up 18% of the budget, And that is while sustaining the international inflationary pressures.

As for China, why do you think China is still friends with a country which is stuck up in 100 different problems? The Gwadar port. If the Gwadar is developed without any moth eaten strategic planning, then it is bound to be the Dubai of the next 5 decades. Plus it will reduce the logistic costs of the Chinese upto 35% especially for accessing the Africas. Hence J-10s, F-22Ps and the likes are what you call the 'gifts' from the Chinese.


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## Nishan_101

Informant said:


> We are not acquiring stealth planes, not for a long long time. Stop your daydreams. We are not capable of handling 4.5 Gen with ease what makes you thing we can handle 5th Gen planes with care. The amount of training would take years upon years for the ground crew, then comes the actual maintainability/acquisition by the PAF.



I am sure for J-31s....


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## Informant

The amount of money that goes into maintaining a 4.5 Gen Block 52+ F-16 is almost $130-140 million. Can you expect us to have the resources to care for 5th Gen J-31? 

I'm not ridiculing you, everyone of us wants a potent airforce. But some things are just not possible. If they are, certainly not in the timeframe you mentioned.

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## araz

Adding to informants post without Chinese Government funding I really think fhe project itself is unlikely to bear fruit till 2017. Expect something by 2022-25.
Araz


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## Jungibaaz

Informant said:


> The amount of money that goes into maintaining a 4.5 Gen Block 52+ F-16 is almost $130-140 million. Can you expect us to have the resources to care for 5th Gen J-31?
> 
> I'm not ridiculing you, everyone of us wants a potent airforce. But some things are just not possible. If they are, certainly not in the timeframe you mentioned.


 
I don't see Pakistan being able to afford and maintain even a squadron or two of 5th gen aircraft any time in this decade.

J-10B would be a nice addition, but it's not entirely necessary. Nor do the monetary limitations allow the procurement of a completely new aircraft at this point. 

Remember, when counting the cost of a new aircraft, there's the flyaway cost, weapons and avionics suite costs, maintenance costs and also infrastructure costs; the necessary infrastructure for each aircraft is different, both PAF and PAC would need to add new facilities to accommodate the induction of a new aircraft.

The JF-17 however is the best thing that's ever happened to AF procurement, our very jet which we can tweak to our hearts content, produce cheaply, locally and in good numbers. 

Add all that up and it becomes clear that not only is the PAF unlikely to procure a new aircraft at this point, it wouldn't be so wise from a financial perspective.


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## Zabaniyah

Jungibaaz said:


> I don't see Pakistan being able to afford and maintain even a squadron or two of 5th gen aircraft any time in this decade.
> 
> J-10B would be a nice addition, but it's not entirely necessary. Nor do the monetary limitations allow the procurement of a completely new aircraft at this point.
> 
> Remember, when counting the cost of a new aircraft, there's the flyaway cost, weapons and avionics suite costs, maintenance costs and also infrastructure costs; the necessary infrastructure for each aircraft is different, both PAF and PAC would need to add new facilities to accommodate the induction of a new aircraft.
> 
> The JF-17 however is the best thing that's ever happened to AF procurement, our very jet which we can tweak to our hearts content, produce cheaply, locally and in good numbers.
> 
> Add all that up and it becomes clear that not only is the PAF unlikely to procure a new aircraft at this point, it wouldn't be so wise from a financial perspective.



The PAF already have two single-engined type jets, the F-16 C/D and the JF-17. The question would be, why would they want a third type? What would be the significant gains here in case money does allow? Operating too many different platforms is often not a great idea.


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## Tacticool

What are significance of 1.6 billion $ US aid in this regard?


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## Tacticool

Informant said:


> The amount of money that goes into maintaining a 4.5 Gen Block 52+ F-16 is almost $130-140 million. Can you expect us to have the resources to care for 5th Gen J-31?
> 
> I'm not ridiculing you, everyone of us wants a potent airforce. But some things are just not possible. If they are, certainly not in the timeframe you mentioned.


140 mil per year?
or entire lifetime?


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## Informant

Lifetime for PAF. Just a round estimate this keeping in mind our costs are way lesser than other AFs. We need a strong economy with double the budget allocation for PAF to be able to look at 5th Gen fighters.


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## 帅的一匹

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> What are significance of 1.6 billion $ US aid in this regard?


I think Paf is really experiencing financial dilemma right now, i hope China could extend some brother help in time.


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## 帅的一匹

http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_1310/27_66_2928b89f7add04a.jpg?23


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## 帅的一匹

Informant said:


> Lifetime for PAF. Just a round estimate this keeping in mind our costs are way lesser than other AFs. We need a strong economy with double the budget allocation for PAF to be able to look at 5th Gen fighters.


I think Pakistan will improve its economy lead by Sharif.


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## jack_zx

J-10 With two similar aircraft performance comparison
TypeJ-10 JAS-39F-16
*Picture*









*Size*16.43m/9.75m/5.43m
14.1m/8.4m/4.5m
15.06m/9.96m/4.88m
*Empty weight9,750kg6,800kg8,570kg
Maximum Takeoff Weight*19,277kg14,000kg19,200kg
*Thrust*122.58kn80.5kn127kn
*Maximum Range*3,900km3,200km4,220km
*Combat radius*1,250km800km1,300km
*Weight ratio*1.0240.971.095
*Cannon*1×23mmCaliber double-barreled cannon1×27
Mm tube Mauser
BK-271×20Mm6
Tube Vulcan
*Plug-in points*0Wingtip/6underwing/5Under the fuselage2Wingtip/4underwing/1Under the fuselage2Wingtip/6underwing/3Under the fuselage
*Plug Weight*6,000kg4,700kg7,700kg


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## Introvert

I haven't been following the news lately. Can someone tell me when is PAF getting the J-10s. (specially J10 B).

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## shanixee

Baazi said:


> I haven't been following the news lately. Can someone tell me when is PAF getting the J-10s. (specially J10 B).


No Pakistan is not getting J10B......

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## Introvert

shanixee said:


> No Pakistan is not getting J10B......


 
Can you provide the link for your claim.


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## jack_zx

" A few weeks ago, I showed the leaked pics to some PAF personal and they agreed that top brass of PAF has always known of this project and the pictures are indeed the J-20 . However, like all Pakistani acquisations, we are NOT interested in J-20 as it is. China is where the Stealth 5th generation MRCA will be bought from but that wont exactly be J-20.
The way PAF deals with and has always delath with Chinese manufacturers (JF-17s are exception) is that we let them present what they have.
Eaxmples: F-7MG --> F-7PG (Chinese couldnt come up with avionics so we bought it from theird party back when sun used to shine well in west for PAF)
For many reasons, including sales of J-10. Any plane operating with PAF is a free marketing for Chinese companies (I was so proud of it when an AVIC personal said it to me in the presence of PAF personal that the world trusts PAFs standards).
Chinese want to see J-10B in considerable number before even offering J-20. The money + interest of Chinese companies is in NOT offering Pakistan J-20 unless J-10B is flying with PAF in number.
My info on this is, Chinese clearly denied to do anything with J-10 unless the orders of F-16s are cut down. PAF did burn their boats after agreeing to it (I am glad they did. Thanks Allah for that) and sent thier team for a long tern partnership with China (Currently located in Chingdu). It was only after then that the Chinese let in PAF/PAC engineers tweak with J-10s and we saw the J-10B.
Time line for J-20 in small batch can easily be after 2016 and only then PAF might be invited to jump in.

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## jack_zx

Pakistan has been rumored ready to buy Chinese 36 J-10, arrival time is about 2014. According to the arrival time, the real model should be J-10B.


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## jupiter2007

Photoshop


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## sancho

jack_zx said:


> *Weight ratio*1.024



The TWR is far lower, especially with the AL31 and is actually even below Gripen Cs and far from a comparable F16B52. For the J10 improvement of not only thrust but also weight will be important, but so far not much reliable specs seems to be available.


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## kbd-raaf

Does anybody here have more information on the PAC developed attitude control system for the JF-17? I can't quite remember what it's called. I'm doing a project on gyroscopes right now and want to find out more about the capabilities of such across the world.

@Oscar @Jungibaaz


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## SQ8

kbd-raaf said:


> Does anybody here have more information on the PAC developed attitude control system for the JF-17? I can't quite remember what it's called. I'm doing a project on gyroscopes right now and want to find out more about the capabilities of such across the world.
> 
> @Oscar @Jungibaaz


PAKISTAN AERONAUTICAL COMPLEX KAMRA


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## kbd-raaf

Oscar said:


> PAKISTAN AERONAUTICAL COMPLEX KAMRA



Do the PAC file patents with the US patent office or the Pakistani equivalent?


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## BATMAN

kbd-raaf said:


> Do the PAC file patents with the US patent office or the Pakistani equivalent?



Look dear... our military do not research for rape proof underwear or mosquito spray...... that it goes to US office for patent.

Why would Pakistan go to US`or any patenting body, to patent its military related development?

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## kbd-raaf

BATMAN said:


> Look dear... our military do not research for rape proof underwear or mosquito spray...... that it goes to US office for patent.
> 
> Why would Pakistan go to US`or any patenting body, to patent its military related development?



PAC is a part of the military? I thought it was a standalone body?

Most companies like to protect their IP, I'm sure PAC does too. Anyhow I don't think there's a online Pakistani patents body, looks like it's going to be the end of my search. I've hit similar roadblocks for India too. My research is being restricted to US, British and French aerospace gyroscopes.

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## Kompromat

kbd-raaf said:


> PAC is a part of the military? I thought it was a standalone body?
> 
> Most companies like to protect their IP, I'm sure PAC does too. Anyhow I don't think there's a online Pakistani patents body, looks like it's going to be the end of my search. I've hit similar roadblocks for India too. My research is being restricted to US, British and French aerospace gyroscopes.




PAC is run by PAF.


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## BATMAN

PAC belongs to PAF


Aeronaut said:


> PAC is run by PAF.



Any one will come to know, when they put PAC on google.

Why member of IT specialist nation failed?


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## kbd-raaf

BATMAN said:


> PAC belongs to PAF
> 
> 
> Any one will come to know, when they put PAC on google.
> 
> Why member of IT specialist nation failed?



My Googling skills are clearly not up to par. I'm going to have to work on it.


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## HRK

J-10 in live-fire training, all 28 rocket projectiles hit targets - People's Daily Online


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## Dazzler

PAF is still interested in J-10P a.k.a B, its not off the cards. Chinese want to induct it first hence the delay.

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## 帅的一匹



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## Kompromat

Thats KS1A battery !


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## DANGER-ZONE

Dazzler said:


> PAF is still interested in J-10P a.k.a B, its not off the cards. Chinese want to induct it first hence the delay.



Bas ker do meary bhai Bas ......... Bohat ho gay rumors and speculations.

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## araz

[quote"DANGER-ZONE, post 4956255, member: 7001"]Bas ker do meary bhai Bas ......... Bohat ho gay rumors and speculations. [/q


Yaar Itna dil bardashta kyon ho. PAF has to give the nation some lollipops and FC20 might just be it.As to the future no one knows for sure.
araz


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## RAMPAGE

araz said:


> [quote"DANGER-ZONE, post 4956255, member: 7001"]Bas ker do meary bhai Bas ......... Bohat ho gay rumors and speculations. [/q
> 
> 
> Yaar Itna dil bardashta kyon ho. PAF has to give the nation some lollipops and FC20 might just be it.As to the future no one knows for sure.
> araz


Why go for J-10bs ... two squadrons of J-20 will give us all we need !!!!!


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## jupiter2007

RAMPAGE said:


> Why go for J-10bs ... two squadrons of J-20 will give us all we need !!!!!



1st of all J-20 is not ready for production, even if it was in production, Chine won't export it to Pakistan unless they fulfill their required quota. 2nd, Pakistan neither interested in it nor can afford J-20 in long run, operational cost will be too high, and it's not a immediate requirement of Pakistan.

While Pakistan is getting ready for Jf-17 block2 production, It still needs a true 4th generation fighter jet with AESA Radar and more gadgets. As per Chinese defence forum, FC-20 is already in production in China, and soon Pakistan can acquire these.


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## RAMPAGE

jupiter2007 said:


> 1st of all J-20 is not ready for production, even if it was in production, Chine won't export it to Pakistan unless they fulfill their required quota. 2nd, Pakistan neither interested in it nor can afford J-20 in long run, operational cost will be too high, and it's not a immediate requirement of Pakistan.
> 
> While Pakistan is getting ready for Jf-17 block2 production, It still needs a true 4th generation fighter jet with AESA Radar and more gadgets. As per Chinese defence forum, FC-20 is already in production in China, and soon Pakistan can acquire these.


By the time we have the funds needed to introduce ANY new aircraft to our inventory, J-20 will be operational in PLAAF. Who told you that the operational costs will be too high ???? Twin engine fighters have been operational in the past with PAF so it's nothing new and It is a requirement if PAF has to regain its technological edge over IAF. 

Btw who told you about JF-17 blk 2. PAF hasn't even defined this blk 2 !!!!!


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## DANGER-ZONE

RAMPAGE said:


> Why go for J-10bs ... two squadrons of J-20 will give us all we need !!!!!

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## araz

[quoif you are willing towait till 2020--e="RAMPAGE, post: 4958487, member: 143307"]Why go for J-10bs ... two squadrons of J-20 will give us all we need !!!!![/quote]
Yes I


RAMPAGE said:


> By the time we have the funds needed to introduce ANY new aircraft to our inventory, J-20 will be operational in PLAAF. Who told you that the operational costs will be too high ???? Twin engine fighters have been operational in the past with PAF so it's nothing new and It is a requirement if PAF has to regain its technological edge over IAF.
> 
> Btw who told you about JF-17 blk 2. PAF hasn't even defined this blk 2 !!!!!


Because of the complexity of maintenance of 5th generation platform mainly related to the radar absorbent materials and surfaces its costs are high so its not just a case of not wanting twin engined platforms

secondly even if J20 was a PAF requirement and PLAAF was willing to export it you would bnot see J20 in green till at least2020--25.


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## jupiter2007

RAMPAGE said:


> By the time we have the funds needed to introduce ANY new aircraft to our inventory, J-20 will be operational in PLAAF. Who told you that the operational costs will be too high ???? Twin engine fighters have been operational in the past with PAF so it's nothing new and It is a requirement if PAF has to regain its technological edge over IAF.
> 
> Btw who told you about JF-17 blk 2. PAF hasn't even defined this blk 2 !!!!!



According to Chengdu J-20 is not going to be in production untill 2017. Do you don't know how many required by PLAAF? If Pakistan can afford them, they won't be in PAF until 2020-2021.
Pakistan should have 40+ FC-20 by 2018.
JF-17 blk 2 production will start in 1st quarter of 2014.

Pakistan by 2018:
* 2007-2013:- 50 JF-17 blk 1
2014-2017:- 100 JF-17 blk 2
2017-2018:- 25 JF-17 blk 3
2014-2018:- 40+ FC-20
2018-2021:- Waiting for true 5th generation plane.*


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## Luftwaffe

What is J-20 doing into FC-20 Thread, has anyone even analyzed that J-20 is a monster plane, our only potential adversary is hindustan, we do not require J-20 and J-20 is "over qualified" Aircraft. Recently announced US unveiled is upgrading F-18E/F "Advanced Super Hornet "stealthy not to be confused with stealth", to save costs and the delays in F-35 program, I would bet this is a good way forward for any future block of JFT and or FC-20. Don't even bet 2020 the poor economic conditions of Pakistan and continuous loans from China we might only see limited number of FC-20 and more JF-17s beyond that atleast up till 2025 there seems to be no enthusiasm for "Stealth" in PAF for a foreseeable future.


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## info4m

Source :Karnal Azeem Nawaz | Facebook
Karnal Azem Nawaz


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## trident2010

40-50 J-10B is a good no. for PAFs future needs. Haven't heard about its purchase for long time. Sooner the better.


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## DANGER-ZONE

trident2010 said:


> 40-50 J-10B is a good no. for PAFs future needs. Haven't heard about its purchase for long time. Sooner the better.



The Deal is Dead ....


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## cnleio

China J-10B fighter mass produce, 1st N.o 161 out.

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## cirr

Great！

Also want to share a pic taken today of a freshly-minted Type 039C Sub:

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## xhw1986

cirr said:


> Great！
> 
> Also want to share a pic taken today of a freshly-minted Type 039C Sub:


How many YUAN class do we have now ?



cnleio said:


> China J-10B fighter mass produce, 1st N.o 161 out.


J-10B is more capable than J-10A.

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## cirr

cnleio said:


> China J-10B fighter mass produce, 1st N.o 161 out.



101, not 161.


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## BDforever

cirr said:


> 101, not 161.


congratz, any news about BD ?


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## siegecrossbow

First batch of J-10Bs rolling off the assembly line:

¹÷BÁ¿²úµÚÒ»¼ÜÍ¼À´ÁË-¿Õ¾ü°æ-³¬¼¶´ó±¾Óª¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³-×î¾ßÓ°ÏìÁ¦¾üÊÂÂÛÌ³ -

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## cnleio

Finally J-10B start to join PLAAF, China J-10A + J-10B fighter = F-16A/B + F-16C/D.

J-10B prototype











J-10B fighter's AESA radar






















Great News, PLAAF J-10B fighter !

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## nomi007

Great News

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## cirr

xhw1986 said:


> How many YUAN class do we have now ?
> 
> 
> J-10B is more capable than J-10A.



There is no such thing as called "Yuan". It is a class that only exists for the West. 

There are upwards of 12 of 039s, 039Bs and 039Cs, with a few more under construction.

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## BDforever

cirr said:


> There is no such thing as called "Yuan". It is a class that only exists for the West.
> 
> There are upwards of 12 of 039s, 039Bs and 039Cs, with a few more under construction.


what about 039G, 039G1 ? are they same class ?


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## xhw1986

cnleio said:


>


The refuling probe sticking out looks ugly...






We should have something like this...

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## 帅的一匹

Why the **** J10b don't use WS10 engine? I have started to loose patient.


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## Imran Khan

congs china

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## cirr

cnleio said:


> Finally J-10B start to join PLAAF, China J-10A + J-10B fighter = F-16A/B + F-16C/D.



This is NOT the radar that actually goes into the production model。


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## 帅的一匹

Engine! engine !engine! WTF.

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## xhw1986

cirr said:


> There is no such thing as called "Yuan". It is a class that only exists for the West.
> 
> There are upwards of 12 of 039s, 039Bs and 039Cs, with a few more under construction.


You are right, YUAN is a NATO code name. So Type 041 class is Type39C ?


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## cirr

wanglaokan said:


> Why the **** J10b don't use WS10 engine? I have started to loose patient.



Take is easy。

There aren't enough Taihangs to go around as yet。

Rumours have it that Batch 3 will use indigenous engines。

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## jarves




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## 帅的一匹

cirr said:


> Take is easy。
> 
> There aren't enough Taihangs to go around as yet。
> 
> Rumours have it that Batch 3 will use indigenous engines。


 then expand the production like as if we can't afford it? We are lagging behind too much regarding jet engine production capability.

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## RAMPAGE

cirr said:


> This is NOT the radar that actually goes into the production model。


Then please post a pic and specs of the radar chosen for the production model.


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## 帅的一匹

We can't produce a decent car engine yet.

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## xhw1986



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## 帅的一匹

CCP shall take full responsibility as those foreign car sellers brutally kill our indeginous automobile industry.

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## alimobin memon

DANGER-ZONE said:


> The Deal is Dead ....


The delivery for pak is to start next year


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## Side-Winder

alimobin memon said:


> The delivery for pak is to start next year



Not sure,no one has heard anything since long about the deal that was made years ago.
this thread USED to be sticky

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## cirr

China's 2nd production-model fighter aircraft with AESA：

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## 帅的一匹

This baby will be more sexy with TaiHang engine. I can't wait to see it.

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## alimobin memon

Side-Winder said:


> Not sure,no one has heard anything since long about the deal that was made years ago.
> this thread USED to be sticky


Nope recently in airshow and Paf officials cleared that the j10b is coming.


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## ChineseTiger1986

wanglaokan said:


> Why the **** J10b don't use WS10 engine? I have started to loose patient.



The first batch will still use the AL-31FN, because the J-10B prototype 1035 has not finished its test for the WS-10X yet.



wanglaokan said:


> We can't produce a decent car engine yet.



What's the point of this?

South Korean produces better car engine than Russian, yet they need to buy the Russian cryogenic engine for their own rocket.

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## Water Car Engineer

Will they discontinue the J-10A model for the Chinese AF? And produce/induct Bs only?


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## Superboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> Will they discontinue the J-10A model for the Chinese AF? And produce/induct Bs only?


 
J-10A is obsolete. J-10B has DSI, a much more advanced cockpit including a wide angle holographic HUD, AESA, IRST, MAWS, an advanced tail mounted EW, etc. and replaces J-10A.

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## Fsjal

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> South Korean produces better car engine than Russian, yet they need to buy the Russian cryogenic engine for their own rocket.


Off topic here, but does China produce their own cryogenic rocket engines?


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## Indischer

Fsjal said:


> Off topic here, but does China produce their own cryogenic rocket engines?


You're off topic everywhere. But to answer you, yes, China does have indigenous cryo rockets. Ex: YF-50t engine on Long March Rockets.



wanglaokan said:


> We can't produce a decent car engine yet.


Good to hear the truth from you. Hope you remember this sentence before you start trolling on India-related pages.


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## cirr

Water Car Engineer said:


> Will they discontinue the J-10A model for the Chinese AF? And produce/induct Bs only?



Discontinued already。

The PLAAF will discontinue the production of J-10Bs in a couple of years too，for a prototype of the “J-10C”（for want of knowing the official name）is already parked somewhere inside the CAC complex and will make its debutant appearance shortly。



wanglaokan said:


> We can't produce a decent car engine yet.



Of course we design and produce decent auto engines，either indigenously or in joint ventures with our foreign partners。As a matter of fact，China now produces more car engines than any other country in the world。

Just do a search。

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## Kompromat

Beautiful bird indeed, may it serve you well our good Chinese friends.

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Discontinued already。
> 
> The PLAAF will discontinue the production of J-10Bs in a couple of years too，for a prototype of the “J-10C”（for want of knowing the official name）is already parked somewhere inside the CAC complex and will make its debutant appearance shortly。
> 
> 
> 
> Of course we design and produce decent auto engines，either indigenously or in joint ventures with our foreign partners。As a matter of fact，China now produces more car engines than any other country in the world。
> 
> Just do a search。




Sorry, but so far there hasn't been any information on the date of the J10C unveiling.


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## sweetgrape

wanglaokan said:


> We can't produce a decent car engine yet.


We still have a big gap with advanced country with strong automotive industry like German Japan and USA, but as to decent engine, we have had it, check Geely and Chery, heard that if Chery and Land rover build joint company, will choose chery engine.

As for aero engine, we still have long way to go, be patient, we will cross it, if you pay attention to manufacturing equipment development, you will find we have made a great progress, although maybe not encough, trust our scientist and engineer, they will soon push a good engine out for our fighter.

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## 帅的一匹

sweetgrape said:


> We still have a big gap with advanced country with strong automotive industry like German Japan and USA, but as to decent engine, we have had it, check Geely and Chery, heard that if Chery and Land rover build joint company, will choose chery engine.
> 
> As for aero engine, we still have long way to go, be patient, we will cross it, if you pay attention to manufacturing equipment development, you will find we have made a great progress, although maybe not encough, trust our scientist and engineer, they will soon push a good engine out for our fighter.


If J10b mounted with WS15, it will be even better than Rafale and EFT.

How many J10b we could produce per year?

每年能装备几个飞行团？

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## sweetgrape

wanglaokan said:


> If J10b mounted with WS15, it will be even better than Rafale and EFT.
> 
> How many J10b we could produce per year?


I don't know the production of J10b, sorry.
I don't doubt the capability of J10B, and its importance for us, If WS15 was mounted to J10A or B massively, reflect our indigenous aero engine is good encough.
Engine is the fruit of strong industry, if our manufacturing equipment--like high sopisticated lathel, material, and design develop to a certain level, we will cross it.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Fsjal said:


> Off topic here, but does China produce their own cryogenic rocket engines?



Our most recent one is YF-77.

YF-77 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## cirr

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Our most recent one is YF-77.
> 
> YF-77 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



And YF-75D、YF-100 etc。。。

长征五号二级YF-75D氢氧发动机创造长程试车时间记录-航天二炮及新概念武器-超级大本营军事论坛-最具影响力军事论坛 -

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## 帅的一匹

J10B means a death penalty for F15J.

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## 帅的一匹

现在是鹰派上台的时候了，我们以前受的气够了。还债的时候到了，只需要再忍上5年。

狗日的跟中国作对的国家全都没有好果子吃。

人善被人欺，马善被人骑。世界上只有强权，没有道理可讲。和西方还有日本将道理的日子过去了，以后就是经济/军舰/大炮/飞机。

小日本准备受死！

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## faithfulguy

Fsjal said:


> Off topic here, but does China produce their own cryogenic rocket engines?



If you count India as a major space faring nation. And you should count them as they have a legitimate Mars mission, India is the only country that do not have a reliable cryogenic rocket engine. All other space faring countries have cryogenic engine at least since the 1980s.

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## 帅的一匹

日本男人全部做掉，女人拉过来做鸡。



faithfulguy said:


> If you count India as a major space faring nation. And you should count them as they have a legitimate Mars mission, India is the only country that do not have a reliable cryogenic rocket engine. All other space faring countries have cryogenic engine at least since the 1980s.


Forget India, we will deal with Japan at first. 你认为阿三有什么大作为？1962年已经证明了印度军队的战斗力是亚洲最差的。


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## Zarvan

I hope our economy improves soon and soon we have billions of dollars to buy these if some how our economy improves and we get money we should go for 180 J-10 B along with 270 JF-17 Thunder BLOCK II

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## 帅的一匹

不堪一击。

印度人还是比较适合做飞饼



Zarvan said:


> I hope our economy improves soon and soon we have billions of dollars to buy these if some how our economy improves and we get money we should go for 180 J-10 B along with 270 JF-17 Thunder BLOCK II


PAF will be the strongest airforce in the whole sub continent if you can run 190 J10B with WS10A.

It's time China shall help our Pakistan brothers prevailing in the sky.

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## Zarvan

wanglaokan said:


> 不堪一击。
> 
> 印度人还是比较适合做飞饼
> 
> 
> PAF will be the strongest airforce in the whole sub continent if you can run 190 J10B with WS10A.
> 
> It's time China shall help our Pakistan brothers prevailing in the sky.


China has helped us a lot our politicians need to improve our economy the number which gave is when we have really strong economy and lot of money in bank to get them but we should at least start by getting 36 as soon as possible or in other words 2 squadron

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## cirr

SinoSoldier said:


> Sorry, but so far there hasn't been any information on the date of the J10C unveiling.



Maiden flight after completing comprehensive tests.

Formal induction in 2-3 years。

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## 帅的一匹

I always believe J10B will be inducted by PAF as long as Pakistan's economy better off.


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## ZohaibMumtaz

alimobin memon said:


> Nope recently in airshow and Paf officials cleared that the j10b is coming.


from where did you get this info?


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Maiden flight after completing comprehensive tests.
> 
> Formal induction in 2-3 years。



And why aren't there any photos over this supposed variant?


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## 帅的一匹

The problems of India and Pakistan are :
India is very rich but the Rafale deal is now got stuck. They are rich but indecisive(most time taken as cash cow).
Pakistan's economy is in very bad shape but she has very much firm determination to go for J10B.
Both are painful but can't help.

The advantage of China is we are both rich and decisive.

As Pakistan is with China side, so money is not always a detrimental problem.

When the first Rafale arrives India in year 2018, PLA might probably have more than 100 J10B in its service. The gap is getting wide and wide. If Indians want the game continue runing, damn sign the Rafale contract.

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## DANGER-ZONE

alimobin memon said:


> Nope recently in airshow and Paf officials cleared that the j10b is coming.



Bhai ham gareebon ko bhee dikha do, kahan kaha tha eysa ? 
koi Link do koi video do, hawai fire na karo meray dost.

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## 帅的一匹

Don't let the game loose its fun so early. China just starts to power up!


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## cirr

wanglaokan said:


> Don't let the game loose its fun so early. China just starts to power up!



China has barely made a start, she has got a long way to go.

First we need to cross the threshold of per capita GDP of $10,000, which is now forecast to happen in 2015. Yes, 2015 is the year and I am not talking about PPP.

Then we need to work hard and make our per capita income surpass the $20,000 mark by 2022, by which time the size of the Chinese economy will be roughly the US plus Japan.

Thereafter, five more years will be required to take our per capita income to north of $30,000 and China's will be an $45 trillion economy in 2027. 

Only then we can start talking about how great China has again become.

PS The dollar is used for ease of reference.

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## sweetgrape

wanglaokan said:


> 现在是鹰派上台的时候了，我们以前受的气够了。还债的时候到了，只需要再忍上5年。
> 
> 狗日的跟中国作对的国家全都没有好果子吃。
> 
> 人善被人欺，马善被人骑。世界上只有强权，没有道理可讲。和西方还有日本将道理的日子过去了，以后就是经济/军舰/大炮/飞机。
> 
> 小日本准备受死！


我其实跟你有一样的感觉，特别是前几年，都是抗议，都想拿到菜刀去砍小日本，美国佬。
至于现在强硬点了，说到底还是我们有了些资本，经济更强大，前几十年的技术积累有了成果，这些都是强硬的基础，鹰派一直有，只是当时自身不强大的时候，被上层压住，在这方面，我得说上层还是明智，因为了解更多，知道更多，我相信他们受的气绝对不比我们少，在这方面不得不佩服上层在这方面忍的住。

不过，现在我们还远称不上强大，如果你了解中国工业，无法是有形的还是无形的，中国与发达国家还是巨大的差距，我的良观评估是还是近30年差距。中国要真正强大还任重道远，我们这一代还必须忍，当然可能有的放矢。


世界是只有强权，我还是那个观点，如果再次发生日本侵略中国，或不怀好意，有能力的话只给他两条路：1.将日本核平；2.完全控制日本，完全禁锢日本，禁止发展相关工业，并且完全处于中国监控下，1万年也不允许放松。
不能让中国人后道再被日本“屠杀”，日本这个民族不值得同情。

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## alimobin memon

I dont have proof here in my pocket sorry.


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## Genesis

sweetgrape said:


> 我其实跟你有一样的感觉，特别是前几年，都是抗议，都想拿到菜刀去砍小日本，美国佬。
> 至于现在强硬点了，说到底还是我们有了些资本，经济更强大，前几十年的技术积累有了成果，这些都是强硬的基础，鹰派一直有，只是当时自身不强大的时候，被上层压住，在这方面，我得说上层还是明智，因为了解更多，知道更多，我相信他们受的气绝对不比我们少，在这方面不得不佩服上层在这方面忍的住。
> 
> 不过，现在我们还远称不上强大，如果你了解中国工业，无法是有形的还是无形的，中国与发达国家还是巨大的差距，我的良观评估是还是近30年差距。中国要真正强大还任重道远，我们这一代还必须忍，当然可能有的放矢。
> 
> 
> 世界是只有强权，我还是那个观点，如果再次发生日本侵略中国，或不怀好意，有能力的话只给他两条路：1.将日本核平；2.完全控制日本，完全禁锢日本，禁止发展相关工业，并且完全处于中国监控下，1万年也不允许放松。
> 不能让中国人后道再被日本“屠杀”，日本这个民族不值得同情。



Japan should be our first ally, our goal should always be the world and not Asia.

Japan is close to us and developed, having her as an ally would benefit us more than having her as an enemy.

Like Zhang Yi's plan for qin, or Bismark's plan for Austria, we must turn Japan into our ally, and it's unfortunate 10-15 years more before we can achieve this. 

So a war may be necessary, but only in a very limited scope.

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## ZohaibMumtaz

i have read on google that russia offer us to buy MIG-35 i think so MIG is better than J-10 that`s why PAF have to buy some MIG


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## sweetgrape

Genesis said:


> Japan should be our first ally, our goal should always be the world and not Asia.
> 
> Japan is close to us and developed, having her as an ally would benefit us more than having her as an enemy.
> 
> Like Zhang Yi's plan for qin, or Bismark's plan for Austria, we must turn Japan into our ally, and it's unfortunate 10-15 years more before we can achieve this.
> 
> So a war may be necessary, but only in a very limited scope.


That's good wish, but if you want to turn Japan into our ally, first you must conquer it.
even that, as Japanese character, they will backstab you any time, so, you have to control it completely, don't loose the control, or, they will retaliate you for your comquering on them, kill your offspring.

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## 帅的一匹

Genesis said:


> Japan should be our first ally, our goal should always be the world and not Asia.
> 
> Japan is close to us and developed, having her as an ally would benefit us more than having her as an enemy.
> 
> Like Zhang Yi's plan for qin, or Bismark's plan for Austria, we must turn Japan into our ally, and it's unfortunate 10-15 years more before we can achieve this.
> 
> So a war may be necessary, but only in a very limited scope.


A cat wanna be friend of mouse will never be a good cat.

任何想和日寇媾和的人都是民族败类。

看看鸠山由纪夫的下场。日本普通老百姓就算想和中国搞好关系的话。日本右翼会答应么？美国鬼子会同意么？日本是一个变态的民族。现在是， 过去是， 将来也是。如果你爱日本， 就往死里揍他。

亚洲只有一个老大，就是中国！


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## 帅的一匹

日本现在就是一个被美帝控制的魔鬼，美国人迟早会自食其果。只要我们这代人守住优势，就能造福子孙。与其让我们的后辈流血，不如我们这代打残日本。

中国万岁！



sweetgrape said:


> That's good wish, but if you want to turn Japan into our ally, first you must conquer it.
> even that, as Japanese character, they will backstab you any time, so, you have to control it completely, don't loose the control, or, they will retaliate you for your comquering on them, kill your offspring.


If Japanese are aliens , Chinese must be predators.



Genesis said:


> Japan should be our first ally, our goal should always be the world and not Asia.
> 
> Japan is close to us and developed, having her as an ally would benefit us more than having her as an enemy.
> 
> Like Zhang Yi's plan for qin, or Bismark's plan for Austria, we must turn Japan into our ally, and it's unfortunate 10-15 years more before we can achieve this.
> 
> So a war may be necessary, but only in a very limited scope.


跟畜生谈感情就是浪费时间， 对日只能强硬强硬再强硬。想和日本做盟友？先核平东京再说。

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## Fsjal

wanglaokan said:


> If Japanese are aliens , Chinese must be predators.


Pretty much you're saying that the Chinese are hi-tech while Japanese are feral.


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## 帅的一匹

要是美国没有在广岛和长崎投下两棵核弹， 日本会做美国的盟友？醒醒吧朋友们，别再用自己的热脸去贴别人的屁股了。

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## Kompromat

@wanglaokan

Pakistani engineers have reportedly worked on the B. Especially in the cockpit layout etc.

The issue is that we are at war and 'overspent'. Not much FDI is coming through. However recently our economy has outgrown India in 2012 and is showing signs of a come back.

Let me remind you that Pakistan's Armed Forces Development Program 2025, was envisioned in 2002 at a time when economy was doing good until 2005 earthquake struck.

Lets hope with the war clouds dispersing, Iran gas pipeline, SinoPak corridor, Thar coal, Gwadar port, Shale reserves and Gul train projects slowly taking shape, we will realize our economic potential.

It might be a bit too late for the J-10B, however as the Airforce commander said 'all chinese options are open to us'.

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## 帅的一匹

I love Pakistanis, the most sincere people in the world.

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## MohitV

i can see some evil conspiracy going on over here


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## Kompromat

wanglaokan said:


> I love Pakistanis, the most sincere people in the world.




But for a specific nation in the region both of us are villains.

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## Contrarian

Aeronaut said:


> However recently our economy has outgrown India in 2012 and is showing signs of a come back.


No it didnt. I saw the other thread too.
Here are facts:


> Real _GDP growth_ for _2012_-13 has been estimated at *3.6 percent*
> 1. http://finance.gov.pk/survey/chapters_13/HGHLIGHTS 2013.pdf
> 2. Economic Survey: GDP growth rate remained 3.7% in outgoing financial year



India


> "As per the Advance Estimates released by the Central Statistics Office, the growth rate of GDP (at factor cost at constant 2004-05) is estimated to be *5 percent* in 2012-13. This growth rate is the lowest during the period 2003-04 to 2012-13," Minister of State for Finance Namo Narain Meena said in a *written reply to the Lok Sabha.*
> 
> Read more at: Indian GDP estimated at 5% in FY13, lowest since FY04: Govt - Moneycontrol.com


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## Genesis

wanglaokan said:


> A cat wanna be friend of mouse will never be a good cat.
> 
> 任何想和日寇媾和的人都是民族败类。
> 
> 看看鸠山由纪夫的下场。日本普通老百姓就算想和中国搞好关系的话。日本右翼会答应么？美国鬼子会同意么？日本是一个变态的民族。现在是， 过去是， 将来也是。如果你爱日本， 就往死里揍他。
> 
> 亚洲只有一个老大，就是中国！




That's what the war is for, win a war, have a better country in terms of prestige and economy. When we win, we would take the islands, but give Japanese economic rights. Two steps forward one step back.

We will take these islands not because we could, but because they originally belonged to us.

Allies are not friends, we don't have to like each other, but the other does have to do what we want. 


Warring states period, Qin defeated Wei and the rest of the three jin states, made them allies instead of taking over land.

This made sure the Qin border was never again troubled and that Qin can launch strikes against the others.

Japan will always be next to us, we can either take over them or be allies. Since taking over is stupid and crazy and ultimately ineffective, become allies is much better choice.

Remember, our goal is the Super power of the east. India due to it's population may challenge us, so having our borders clear of trouble is very important.

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## 帅的一匹

Chinese are smart, hardworking, benevolent. We don't want to harm others if it could be avoided.


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## Informant

J-10B is 4 years away minimum, Mig 35 has higher maintenance and acquisition costs.


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## MohitV

Aeronaut said:


> But for a specific nation in the region both of us are villains.


bhutan ???

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## nomi007



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## DANGER-ZONE

alimobin memon said:


> I dont have proof here in my pocket sorry.





alimobin memon said:


> Nope recently in airshow and Paf officials cleared that the j10b is coming.



Nothing was told regarding J-10 acquisition at Dubai air show this year and last year at Zuhai Air show PAF officials cleared that *"WE HAVE NO PLANS TO INDUCT J-10 FOR NOW WE ARE HAPPY WITH JF-17" 

专访巴基斯坦空军将军 打破巴将购歼-10传言_军事_环球网*

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## alimobin memon

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Nothing was told regarding J-10 acquisition at Dubai air show this year and last year at Zuhai Air show PAF officials cleared that *"WE HAVE NO PLANS TO INDUCT J-10 FOR NOW WE ARE HAPPY WITH JF-17"
> 
> 专访巴基斯坦空军将军 打破巴将购歼-10传言_军事_环球网*



ok


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## Superboy

Looks awesome. Much better than J-10A and certainly better than Tejas. The world's 2nd operational fighter jet having DSI.

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## Superboy

J-10 is much bigger than JF-17 and more costly to maintain. J-10 is F-16 sized. JF-17 is JAS-39 sized. JF-17 is currently best suited for PAF in the air defense role while using F-16 in the ground attack role.


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## cnleio

Very Nice

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## shuttler

Credit: Huangqiu miliary and
（鸣谢：战略网 汉魂雄风）



BDforever said:


> congratz, any news about BD ?



Thanks but no, not yet in relation to J10B





















Above 4 Credits: fyjs and airforceworld

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## nomi007



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## shuttler

xhw1986 said:


> The refuling probe sticking out looks ugly...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We should have something like this...



That is cosmetic point
It also has potential mechanical failure, in mid air!

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## cirr

J-10C to debut any minute now。

Maiden flight before Chinese New Year in Jan. 2014.

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## Superboy

What's the difference between the 2nd and the 3rd from the top?


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## ZohaibMumtaz

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Nothing was told regarding J-10 acquisition at Dubai air show this year and last year at Zuhai Air show PAF officials cleared that *"WE HAVE NO PLANS TO INDUCT J-10 FOR NOW WE ARE HAPPY WITH JF-17"
> 
> 专访巴基斯坦空军将军 打破巴将购歼-10传言_军事_环球网*


can you please post where PAF official said that PAF have no plane to buy J-10B
if it`s true then PAF soon will weak then IAF because they are going to buy Rafale and in future they will buy PAK FA T-50 what the hell PAF is doing our Air force is too much weak like see to IAF they have
MIG 29
SU 30Mki
MIG 21
Mirage 2000 
and what we have just some F-16 and JF-17 thunder and SU 30 Mki is better then JF-17 and even they better then F-16 if our PAF wll fight with IAF i think so PAF is nothing infront of them that`s why we have to buy some advanced Jet fighter not to get Mirage III/V And F-7pg


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## cirr

103

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## Yarkshia

OMGOMG，the third piece comes out? no PS? fantastic!


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## chauvunist

Wow wow wow...A Fantabolously Beautiful Bird...


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## MastanKhan

Superboy said:


> J-10 is much bigger than JF-17 and more costly to maintain. J-10 is F-16 sized. JF-17 is JAS-39 sized. JF-17 is currently best suited for PAF in the air defense role while using F-16 in the ground attack role.




Hi,

So where is the air dominance air superiority fighter----.


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## Storm Force

Air dominance and air superiority is not in pak doctrine. Lightweight low maintenance jets will provide denile to iaf over pak air space only. Its not in your doctrine to dominate the air space


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## COOKie LOOkie....

hi everyone!


ZohaibMumtaz said:


> can you please post where PAF official said that PAF have no plane to buy J-10B
> if it`s true then PAF soon will weak then IAF because they are going to buy Rafale and in future they will buy PAK FA T-50 what the hell PAF is doing our Air force is too much weak like see to IAF they have
> MIG 29
> SU 30Mki
> MIG 21
> Mirage 2000
> and what we have just some F-16 and JF-17 thunder and SU 30 Mki is better then JF-17 and even they better then F-16 if our PAF wll fight with IAF i think so PAF is nothing infront of them that`s why we have to buy some advanced Jet fighter not to get Mirage III/V And F-7pg


asalam alaikum my friend!! look my friend j 10b is never off our table and never will be as far for jf 17 is of now it cant be more perfect as it is. updates take time dont u worry paf is not going to fall infront of iaf in tech! j10b is used as leverage to iaf if they go for rafale paf will head for j 10b and as for stealth consideration have been made but stealth is atleast 10 years away from both forces.. so chillax!!


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## 帅的一匹

How many J10b PLA gonna induct?


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## cirr

wanglaokan said:


> How many J10b PLA gonna induct?



Two regiments？No more than 4， for J-10C is scheduled to enter service a bare 2 years from maiden flight。

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## ZohaibMumtaz

COOKie LOOkie.... said:


> hi everyone!
> 
> asalam alaikum my friend!! look my friend j 10b is never off our table and never will be as far for jf 17 is of now it cant be more perfect as it is. updates take time dont u worry paf is not going to fall infront of iaf in tech! j10b is used as leverage to iaf if they go for rafale paf will head for j 10b and as for stealth consideration have been made but stealth is atleast 10 years away from both forces.. so chillax!!


Thanx brother to help me it`s mean PAf have not cancel deal with china for j-10b IN SHA ALLAH soon we will get J-10b


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## cirr

chauvunist said:


> Wow wow wow...A Fantabolously Beautiful Bird...

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## ejaz007

Storm Force said:


> Air dominance and air superiority is not in pak doctrine. Lightweight low maintenance jets will provide denile to iaf over pak air space only. Its not in your doctrine to dominate the air space


 
Air dominance inside Pakistan air space is in our doctrine.

In hostile air space we might not be able to achieve it but on battlefield we shall try.

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## CN.Black

Disappointed to see that J10B started mass production using AL31FN,but I think the 2nd block will use WS10B engine just like J11B.(PS:This is my first post here)

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## Nishan_101

I am quite sure that PAF want J-31 not J-10B 

But I am not so sure that PAC is involved in the project or not!!!

J-31 has the same engine as JF-17s...


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## COOKie LOOkie....

ZohaibMumtaz said:


> Thanx brother to help me it`s mean PAf have not cancel deal with china for j-10b IN SHA ALLAH soon we will get J-10b


no they have not indeed and if u and check out paf airbases or centers it has pictures and models of j 10 b everywhere!! note that!!

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## cnleio

China J-10B fighter mass produce

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## MastanKhan

Storm Force said:


> Air dominance and air superiority is not in pak doctrine. Lightweight low maintenance jets will provide denile to iaf over pak air space only. Its not in your doctrine to dominate the air space



Sir,

You are in error---regardlesss of what you may have heard or what has been stated---PAF is an offencive air force---. Strike deep strike hard---. If it is in the flight radius---it is a target.

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## 帅的一匹

J10B is the honour of PRC and PLA airforce.


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## 帅的一匹

Informant said:


> J-10B is 4 years away minimum, Mig 35 has higher maintenance and acquisition costs.


PAF will have no secret aganist IAF if you guys choose MIG35. To be honest, J10B is way better than MIG35(a non stealthy old design).

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## 帅的一匹

I think J10B is the most sexy 4.5 gen fighters on this planet.

The second batch will be mounted with WS10B.

PLA has got 140 plus J11B mounted with WS10A, which means WS series engine has been mature.

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## Informant

wanglaokan said:


> PAF will have no secret aganist IAF if you guys choose MIG35. To be honest, J10B is way better than MIG35(a non stealthy old design).
> 
> View attachment 11783
> 
> 
> View attachment 11784
> 
> 
> View attachment 11785



J-10B is better for us, but brotato we dont have the resources not till 2018.

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## 帅的一匹

COOKie LOOkie.... said:


> no they have not indeed and if u and check out paf airbases or centers it has pictures and models of j 10 b everywhere!! note that!!


The current low tune of PAF for J10B might be a smoke shell to puzzle IAF.

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## 帅的一匹

Informant said:


> J-10B is better for us, but brotato we dont have the resources not till 2018.


China will not mind arm a squadron of J10B to PAF for free, especially at this difficult moment. Brother don't talk money.

You shall got some decent weapon to deal with Rafale threat.

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## 帅的一匹

Storm Force said:


> Air dominance and air superiority is not in pak doctrine. Lightweight low maintenance jets will provide denile to iaf over pak air space only. Its not in your doctrine to dominate the air space


Things always change, what if PAF go for J10B in the end? I think they are just waiting for the WS10 to get mature on J10B.

You don't have to gloat over here, Pakistan will be better with China.

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## Nishan_101

wanglaokan said:


> PAF will have no secret aganist IAF if you guys choose MIG35. To be honest, J10B is way better than MIG35(a non stealthy old design).
> 
> View attachment 11783
> 
> 
> View attachment 11784
> 
> 
> View attachment 11785



Although looks more than perfect. But I am sure PAF wants a superior aircraft like J-31 which has an engine similarity with JF-17s... Although there is no news of Block-II and no pics. But it will be equal to J-10Bs in terms of avionics.


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## airmarshal

Congratulations China and India please stop comparing yourself to China. You cant build any of these weapons yourself.

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## Sasquatch

cirr said:


> Two regiments？No more than 4， for J-10C is scheduled to enter service a bare 2 years from maiden flight。



The first batches of J-10C are likely to use the AL-31 judging from J-10B ?


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## trident2010

8-10 squadrons of J-31s along with 5 squadrons of J-20s and PAF is sorted. I am sure within 2020, PAF shall have it.


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## akand bharat

trident2010 said:


> 8-10 squadrons of J-31s along with 5 squadrons of J-20s and PAF is sorted. I am sure within 2020, PAF shall have it.


bhai tussi bade mazakiya Hoh


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## graphican

akand bharat said:


> bhai tussi bade mazakiya Hoh



J-31 is announced for export already and China's closest strategic partner happens to be Pakistan. Besides, China and Pakistan has common interests and the common enemy. Even if PAF doesn't fly J-20, Pakistan will have enough squadrons and potency to keep IAF at bay. So your fellow is not that mazakia anyway.

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## akand bharat

graphican said:


> Pakistan will have enough squadrons and potency to keep IAF at bay


Did you have substantial Data too Support Your Fan boyish claim Then Put it If Not stop it


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## trident2010

akand bharat said:


> bhai tussi bade mazakiya Hoh



Bhai, once J-31 is ready then I am sure PAF will be its one of the customer. China is developing J-31 especially for export as a F-35 alternative. Lets hope we get FGFA and Rafale on time so as to keep the air dominance in the region as today.


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## graphican

akand bharat said:


> Did you have substantial Data too Support Your Fan boyish claim Then Put it If Not stop it



What fan-boyish claims? Your ignorance doesn't give you a medal of honor here. Look around and find the news.. everything is here in Defence.pk but to help your lousy attitude this time alone, 

*Block-III of JFT will start production in 2016 onwards. *







and

*J-31 stealth is designed for export*

J-31 stealth fighter designed for export, says PLA admiral｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com

What else are you seeking?

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## akand bharat

graphican said:


> What fan-boyish claims? Your ignorance doesn't give you a medal of honor here. Look around and find the news.. everything is here in Defence.pk but to help your lousy attitude this time alone,
> 
> *Block-III of JFT will start production in 2016 onwards. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> *J-31 stealth is designed for export*
> 
> J-31 stealth fighter designed for export, says PLA admiral｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com
> 
> What else are you seeking?


Still on paper we all know that
secondly j-31 fighter is complete foreign plane for Paf its Not a partner I did Not believe Chinese fill give full ToT to pakistan if they give it will be have some threads attach Chinese are not fools they spends not millions But billions on this program they will Not give it that easy as you thing dude Look at other Fifth generation programs like jsf nd pak fa Learn it form that thirdly if some how Chinese will agree It will cost Pakistan much high.and by looking today scenarios paf can t afford it like J-10b program got Delayed


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## akand bharat

trident2010 said:


> Bhai, once J-31 is ready then I am sure PAF will be its one of the customer. China is developing J-31 especially for export as a F-35 alternative. Lets hope we get FGFA and Rafale on time so as to keep the air dominance in the region as today.


brother dont think Chinese will give full tot paf but if some how they give it will cost them sky high they are not in position too induct it in adequate no look at how j-10b program delayed bec of lack of funds fifth generation tech is very costly to bear alone thats why even usa needs partner in their JSF program and Russia as well Chinese are not fools they spends billions on this progran


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## Superboy



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## graphican

akand bharat said:


> Still on paper we all know that
> secondly j-31 fighter is complete foreign plane for Paf its Not a partner I did Not believe Chinese fill give full ToT to pakistan if they give it will be have some threads attach Chinese are not fools they spends not millions But billions on this program they will Not give it that easy as you thing dude Look at other Fifth generation programs like jsf nd pak fa Learn it form that thirdly if some how Chinese will agree It will cost Pakistan much high.and by looking today scenarios paf can t afford it like J-10b program got Delayed



So now you change your stance and rather jumped to TOT and still on paper $hits. How do you know what is on paper won't be real? Its not Indian HAL or DRDO stuff, PAC and China are known to produce quality and deliver on time. Here learn some,

Has JF-17 block-I been on time? Yes it has been.
Has block-II started its development in time? From various insider news, we know it is and even Chinese fellows in the second quarter of 2012 had revealed that JF-17 Block-II has taken its first flight. 
*Has Pakistan already signed MOU to develop stealth fighter together with China?* again Yes we have.
Is J-31 for export and available to Pakistan? Think Pak China relationship and you would know the answer. 
Now everything which we intended is begin done and by the year 2018 as you put, we will have good muscles. But you won't need to be satisfied with anything we do, after all this development is against our enemies and only friends should be happy with such developments.

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## graphican

akand bharat said:


> brother dont think Chinese will give full tot paf but if some how they give it will cost them sky high they are not in position too induct it in adequate no look at how j-10b program delayed bec of lack of funds fifth generation tech is very costly to bear alone thats why even usa needs partner in their JSF program and Russia as well Chinese are not fools they spends billions on this progran




*Congratulations to you my friend. Pakistan has started production of Block-II - on time again!
*
In mid 2012, its prototype had taken its first light and today Pakistan is starting Production of Block-II. Amazing aren't they. PAF will be owesome by 2018.. you agree more than before don't you.. but even if you don't, your "Still on paper" $hit has received an answer.

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## MilSpec

graphican said:


> In mid 2012, its prototype had taken its first light and today Pakistan is starting Production of Block-II. Amazing aren't they. PAF will be owesome by 2018.. you agree more than before don't you.. but even if you don't, your "Still on paper" $hit has received an answer.



With what? a Chinese plane assembled in pakistan, ren de, we've been doing that since Mig21 days...


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## Bilal.

sandy_3126 said:


> With what? a Chinese plane assembled in pakistan, ren de, we've been doing that since Mig21 days...




How many Indian engineers were involved in conceptualisation, design and development phase of the Mig-21?

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## akand bharat

graphican said:


> Has Pakistan already signed MOU to develop stealth fighter together with China? again Yes we have


The link post is for stealth variant of Jf-17 Not J-31 Dude and link it self debatable when there is written on link itself



*BUT THERE IS NO SOURCE TO VERIFY IT.*

*China and Pakistan have reportedly signed a memorandum of understanding to develop a stealth version*of a light-weight fighter aircraft being jointly produced by them.
F-17 Thunder, also known as FC-1, being jointly built by Kamra-based Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and Chengdu Aerospace Company (CAC) made its first appearance at an international air show having flown in here after making refueling stops in Saudi Arabia and Turkey.

The plane, which has been in development in one form or another since 2000, is a symbol of cooperation between China and Pakistan and the first assembled version brought out by the Kamra plant, delivered in November last year, according to 'Show News,' a special issue of defence journal Aviation Week for the Farnborough Air Show.


"The two (countries) have also reportedly signed a memorandum of understanding to develop a stealth variant of the JF-17 Thunder," it said.

The journal said that Pakistan Air Force (PAK) is expected to acquire around 250 JF-17s, but this may be a split of 100 in the JF-17 configuration, being displayed at the air show here, and 150 of the stealth multi-role combat aircraft (MCRA) between 2015 and 2025.




No J-31 is mentioned here my but Jf-17 stealth variant We have same program too in Form of Lca Mk3 stealth variant of Lca is built on the basis of tot available from pak fa and mmrca
*India's indigenously developed supersonic fighter aircraft to be developed into a stealth platform.*
Dr. V.K Saraswat, presently the Scientific Advisor to India's Defence Minister, delivered a keynote address at the recently held Aerospace Forum in Sweden that concluded on the 3rd of June, this year. Titled, 'Vision for India’s Future Aerospace and Defence', he spoke of some of big ticket Aerospace development projects currently underway or are to commence shortly.

Among these would be a programme to integrate technologies developed as part of India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft [AMCA] programme into the Light Combat Aircraft [LCA], Tejas. This variant would be identified as Mark III.

_"Many of these technologies could also find their way into the Light Combat Aircraft Mk. 3 that is to be more stealthy than the current Mk. 2 version, which is due to fly in the next two years with the General Electric F414 engine and be ready for operational trials in 2016. The Mk. 3 is to have up to 70% composite content, almost double the current version's level, and could be powered by India's Kaveri turbofan, if that troubled program gets back on track."_

Dr. Saraswat's talk has been summarised in an article that appears in the latest issue of the Aviation Week & Space Technologymagazine. You could read the full article below.


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## graphican

akand bharat said:


> BUT THERE IS NO SOURCE TO VERIFY IT.





akand bharat said:


> The link post is for stealth variant of Jf-17 Not J-31 Dude and link it self debatable when there is written on link itself
> 
> *BUT THERE IS NO SOURCE TO VERIFY IT.*



What do you need as a proof? PAF chief himself coming and giving a statement in your "honor" ? *Obviously you wouldn't trust your own resource either. *

China-Pak in MoU to Develop Variant on JF-17 Thunder

But why is this denyel? 2 Days ago you weren't sure about Block-II and it has started its production now. How much would you hide behind your "won't work", "still on paper", "won't get TOT" stuff..  Its coming and written on the wall.. hide from it if you can.

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## MilSpec

Bilal. said:


> How many Indian engineers were involved in conceptualisation, design and development phase of the Mig-21?


my bad, I dont want to hurt ego's here!


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## Bilal.

sandy_3126 said:


> my bad, I dont want to hurt ego's here!



Non hurt but a simple question went danced around

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## Bratva

sandy_3126 said:


> my bad, I dont want to hurt ego's here!



A mere verbiage.


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## akand bharat

graphican said:


> Is J-31 for export and available to Pakistan? Think Pak China relationship and you would know the answer.


Its Not about relationship In geopolitical world we have same relations with Russia But We are still paying 100 Million Per unit for FGFA still sharing the 30-40% cost of the whole 30 billion program Dude China do not invest in Multi-billion program to give it too Paf for charity


graphican said:


> What do you need as a proof? PAF chief himself coming and giving a statement in your "honor" ? *Obviously you wouldn't trust your own resource either. *
> 
> China-Pak in MoU to Develop Variant on JF-17 Thunder
> 
> But why is this denyel? 2 Days ago you weren't sure about Block-II and it has started its production now. How much would you hide behind your "won't work", "still on paper", "won't get TOT" stuff..  Its coming and written on the wall.. hide from it if you can.


"still on paper" implies the aircraft still not flying in air Same goes for Lca mk2 which is in the production stage prototype still not came out yet for both


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## MilSpec

mafiya said:


> A mere verbiage.


sure, i dont want to start asking uncomfortable JF 17 questions, with fuming moderators, on a J10 thread. I'm not going anywhere, If you do want to dissect Jf17, how bout discussing it on Jf17 thread, enlighten me, I am looking for information
JF-17 Thunder - Information Pool | Page 28


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## Bratva

sandy_3126 said:


> sure, i dont want to start asking uncomfortable JF 17 questions, with fuming moderators, on a J10 thread. I'm not going anywhere, If you do want to dissect Jf17, how bout discussing it on Jf17 thread, enlighten me, I am looking for information
> JF-17 Thunder - Information Pool | Page 28



And so you were properly informed there. Bilal made an interesting observation were you involved with MIG 21 and SU 30 from scratch?. You can't compare MIG-21 adn SU-30 Assembling with JF-17 which when get sold to other nations. Pakistan would get a share from it. Now can it occur with MIG 21 or SU 30?

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## graphican

akand bharat said:


> Its Not about relationship In geopolitical world we have same relations with Russia But We are still paying 100 Million Per unit for FGFA still sharing the 30-40% cost of the whole 30 billion program Dude China do not invest in Multi-billion program to give it too Paf for charity.



The Problems which India is having is India's problems and the development which we are doing internally or with China is our relationship. If your relationship with your gf has been bad, its bad idea to think that every relationship is like yours.



> "still on paper" implies the aircraft still not flying in air Same goes for Lca mk2 which is in the production stage prototype still not came out yet for both



I just showed you development of the block-II started and officially publicized by PAC. We are not talking about "Started design on paper" *but its PRODUCTION has started - (a tip for you, read the posted news again).* You look so miserable when you move your argument to TOT and then to COST and India had to pay 100mills stories. You mentioned Pakistan wouldn't have high-tec equipment by 2018 and in 2013 we have started PRODUCTION of bock-II which just like book-I will complete in time and you will find block-III production well before 2018. Now stop being lousy and talk some sense - if you actually can.

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## 帅的一匹

Indian poster in this thread are too ignorant to be replied, mighty LCA is the best fighter in this universe. We Chinese know what Indians capable of, get out this thread before you look more stupid.

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## Irfan Baloch

wanglaokan said:


> Indian poster in this thread are too ignorant to be replied, mighty LCA is the best fighter in this universe. We Chinese know what Indians capable of, get out this thread before you look more stupid.


LCA has never crashed so that makes it better
whereas JF17 has crashed so that makes it bad

by the way why we talking other planes in J-10 thread?
so let me say J-10 is better than MKI because J-10 has never crashed whereas MKI has crashed

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## Firoze

xhw1986 said:


> You are right, YUAN is a NATO code name. So Type 041 class is Type39C ?


NO 039c,NO 041



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The first batch will still use the AL-31FN, because the J-10B prototype 1035 has not finished its test for the WS-10X yet.
> 
> 
> 
> What's the point of this?
> 
> South Korean produces better car engine than Russian, yet they need to buy the Russian cryogenic engine for their own rocket.



accurately,this batch AL31s improved by the 99m1's tech


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## sancho

wanglaokan said:


> Indian poster in this thread are too ignorant to be replied



Ignorance has no origin, you also are ignoring many things wrt to J10 or PAF, because of bias, just like there are Indians that are biased towards LCA and IAF.
The best thing to do is to stick to topic and get some news and infos on J10, be it on the B version, or a possible order from PAF.

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## Munir

2014-2015 we will receive 20-36 FC20

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## 帅的一匹

sancho said:


> Ignorance has no origin, you also are ignoring many things wrt to J10 or PAF, because of bias, just like there are Indians that are biased towards LCA and IAF.
> The best thing to do is to stick to topic and get some news and infos on J10, be it on the B version, or a possible order from PAF.


Do you think LCA MK1 could handle J10b?

I think IAF will buy J10B instead of Rafale if we are ally, one Rafale costs three J10B. How do you think? Talk honestly


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## sancho

wanglaokan said:


> Do you think LCA MK1 could handle J10b?
> 
> I think IAF will buy J10B instead of Rafale if we are ally, one Rafale costs three J10B. How do you think? Talk honestly



There is no need to talk about LCA in this thread and it would help you, me and everybody else much more to get a better idea (with official or reliable sources) of J10Bs changes, specs and capabilities, instead of just claiming it is better than other fighters of the same generation. 
I still didn't see any specboards of the manufacturer, so how much was the emptyweight reduced? How performance improvement did the DSI addition gave, what new EW or weapon capabilities are available now and most of all what radar does it have, with what performance?
All this is still not officially known and even the claims about a Chinese engine in the serial production versions turned out to be wrong, so on what base do you want me to say if J10B is better than any comparable fighter, when there is nothing to compare apart from pics of the external changes?


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## DANGER-ZONE

Munir said:


> 2014-2015 we will receive 20-36 FC20



We have been listing such things since centuries .... Time to back these claims with some sort of SOLID proof.


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## 帅的一匹

sancho said:


> There is no need to talk about LCA in this thread and it would help you, me and everybody else much more to get a better idea (with official or reliable sources) of J10Bs changes, specs and capabilities, instead of just claiming it is better than other fighters of the same generation.
> I still didn't see any specboards of the manufacturer, so how much was the emptyweight reduced? How performance improvement did the DSI addition gave, what new EW or weapon capabilities are available now and most of all what radar does it have, with what performance?
> All this is still not officially known and even the claims about a Chinese engine in the serial production versions turned out to be wrong, so on what base do you want me to say if J10B is better than any comparable fighter, when there is nothing to compare apart from pics of the external changes?


it's just matter of time for you to admit J10b's capability. If you want to know more about J10b, go learn some Chinese and Baidu it.


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## nomi007

Irfan Baloch said:


> LCA has never crashed so that makes it better
> whereas JF17 has crashed so that makes it bad
> 
> by the way why we talking other planes in J-10 thread?
> so let me say J-10 is better than MKI because J-10 has never crashed whereas MKI has crashed


why u are spreading wrong information
dear sir the reason of crash of jf-17 was bird strike which is natural thing not malfunction
by the way j-10 crashed once
if u compare su-30mkk with su-30mki that will be justified


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## sancho

wanglaokan said:


> it's just matter of time for you to admit J10b's capability. If you want to know more about J10b, go learn some Chinese and Baidu it.



I have no problem in admiting any capability of J10, I stated often enough that I like the fighter personally and would have loved if India had gone for it as a medium class single engine fighter, instead of LCA. However, that doesn't mean that the B upgrade is as huge as the media makes it, or that PAF must go for it, if the capability difference to JF 17 can be that low as I showed you before and to compare it to Rafale F3+ that IAF might get, we don't even have basic infos available.


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## Bilal.

wanglaokan said:


> it's just matter of time for you to admit J10b's capability. If you want to know more about J10b, go learn some Chinese and Baidu it.



Bro, share some insight with us


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## Irfan Baloch

nomi007 said:


> why u are spreading wrong information
> dear sir the reason of crash of jf-17 was bird strike which is natural thing not malfunction
> by the way j-10 crashed once
> if u compare su-30mkk with su-30mki that will be justified



you are a very nice man. when you grow up you will become wise too

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## xhw1986




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## Nishan_101

graphican said:


> *Congratulations to you my friend. Pakistan has started production of Block-II - on time again!
> *
> In mid 2012, its prototype had taken its first light and today Pakistan is starting Production of Block-II. Amazing aren't they. PAF will be owesome by 2018.. you agree more than before don't you.. but even if you don't, your "Still on paper" $hit has received an answer.



Any Pics? also Numbers like 100-140 will be produced???


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## graphican

Nishan_101 said:


> Any Pics? also Numbers like 100-140 will be produced???



No mate I'm no insider. What I have mentioned is learnings from PDF and Sino Defense forums.


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## Pinnacle

Munir said:


> 2014-2015 we will receive 20-36 FC20


we have given up our expectations sir. by the way any confirmation? how r u so sure about it?


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## fatman17

J-10/FC-20 will only be delivered to PAF if it is powered by a chinese powerplant. so wait 3-5 years at least. case closed.

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Informant said:


> J-10B is 4 years away minimum, Mig 35 has higher maintenance and acquisition costs.


so that means that the russians had actually made that offer to us ??


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## 帅的一匹

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> so that means that the russians had actually made that offer to us ??


If PAF wanna go for MIG35, i think Russia will sell to you. Mig-35 is deadstock in international market.


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## Luftwaffe

alimobin memon said:


> Nope recently in airshow and Paf officials cleared that the j10b is coming.


 
PAF is doing stupidity of 80's not going for Mirage-2000 or getting more F-16s instead of settling for F-7s either invest in Thunder blocks or forget Thunder and go for J-10s.


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## Kompromat

@Luftwaffe

More F-16s are coming.


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## corefragments

I,m interested in how good is j-10 compared to jf-17,
Whether it would be wise to have similar capability aircraft.


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## Bratva

Aeronaut said:


> @Luftwaffe
> 
> More F-16s are coming.



Is it your personal opinion?

The current atmosphere indicates Pakistan putting it's money on JF upgrades and America is not in mood to finance any further F-16 deal through FMS


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## Kompromat

mafiya said:


> Is it your personal opinion?
> 
> The current atmosphere indicates Pakistan putting it's money on JF upgrades and America is not in mood to finance any further F-16 deal through FMS



Situation is much worse. Lets wait and see. 

AFAIC PAF is looking for used vipers to be upgraded and inducted.


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## Bratva

Aeronaut said:


> Situation is much worse. Lets wait and see.
> 
> AFAIC* PAF is looking for used vipers to be upgraded and inducted.*



And US has indirectly put the string on F-16 procurement through OHP Frigate program, where by Pakistan has to ensure It's not working against US interests and we all know What happens in 1990 would be repeated once America moves out of Af-Pak region and Pakistan moves ahead with it Iran pipleline deal

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## Informant

Luftwaffe said:


> PAF is doing stupidity of 80's not going for Mirage-2000 or getting more F-16s instead of settling for F-7s either invest in Thunder blocks for forget Thunder and go for J-10s.



Our paid F-16s are on the way. We dont have the money, nobody is making the 80's mistake. We have an AF budget of $1.5 B which is not at all enough for weird fetishes and fantasies of all the gullible people. We are broke if we get something from China on soft loans. Thunders are more important than F-16s as F-7s are nearing their end. 

You being an airforce/luftwaffe guy should have more info about the issues we face.

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## SBD-3

Aeronaut said:


> @Luftwaffe
> 
> More F-16s are coming.


Galian bhee deni hain aur F-16s bhee lenay hain?........


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## Luftwaffe

Aeronaut said:


> @Luftwaffe
> 
> More F-16s are coming.


 
We hope J-10s would be by passed for the better future of Thunder for a sizeable Air Force where as keep a check on 5th Gen product in the next 10 years period. Coming back to F-16s PAF was looking for around 77-78 to 90 F-16s. One additional squadron can make a difference.



hasnain0099 said:


> Galian bhee deni hain aur F-16s bhee lenay hain?........


 
Just like Turkey...your military deals should be separate from political monkey stunts, you can call it whatever you want.

All those who are jumping at me F-16 procurement won't need additional training or all the trouble that comes with entirely new aircraft I don't need to pen down detail about it, why not put that money into completing the 150 JF-17s rather than going for 36-48 J-10s for a completely new setup only fools would do it, by you people logic all F-16s are sitting ducks...so you are doomed anyways 36 J-10s would change much? Not at all, my opinion is opposite. J-10s can only come once 150 JF-17s are inducted that would make sense and when you have funds to spare.

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## Kompromat

We need either more F-16s or UAE Mirages.

or we are in 'deep shit' in year 2020.

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## Shadow_Hunter

You guys do understand that your JF17 are competing against used F16s and mirages don't you? And you also want to go for the same? Way to kill the export market.

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## ziaulislam

the price of UAE mirage is so much (especially after upgrades) that its better to acquire more older f-16s/jf-17s or j-10s


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## Kompromat

Shadow_Hunter said:


> You guys do understand that your JF17 are competing against used F16s and mirages don't you? And you also want to go for the same? Way to kill the export market.



F-16s = No training needed for PAF. Its a medium weight fighter. It can perform much better in many mission profiles.

We just want ~ 90 F-16s along with 250 Thunders.

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## Luftwaffe

ziaulislam said:


> the price of UAE mirage is so much (especially after upgrades) that its better to acquire more older f-16s/jf-17s or j-10s


 
Trying is not a bad option $10-$15m per mirage or leave it, what do we lose.


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## Shadow_Hunter

Aeronaut said:


> F-16s = No training needed for PAF. Its a medium weight fighter. It can perform much better in many mission profiles.
> 
> We just want ~ 90 F-16s along with 250 Thunders.



Thats not the point. How will you convince another nation looking to choose between a second hand F16 and your JF17 when he knows that you also bought the F16? conversion Training will be required anyways since your pilots will be moving from mirages to F16. So same case as JF17. F16 is not a medium weight fighter. You have operating it for 20 years. You should know.


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## Kompromat

Every nation has a different requirement for their air defense. If JF-17 does the job for Sri Lanka or Azarbaijan, they will not opt for F-16s which are expensive to operate.

F-16s even used ones are just way too advane for many air forces. US won't allow sales to countries it doesn't want to. Nor would it approve the transfer of AMRAAMs and other critical parts.

We have one of the most experianced Air Forces in the world, especially with F-16s. Our requirements are a 'high lo' mix of jets, which is what i explained before.

I don't think it will affect thunder exports.

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## razgriz19

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Thats not the point. How will you convince another nation looking to choose between a second hand F16 and your JF17 when he knows that you also bought the F16? conversion Training will be required anyways since your pilots will be moving from mirages to F16. So same case as JF17. F16 is not a medium weight fighter. You have operating it for 20 years. You should know.



F-16 was a light weight fighter for USAF - lighter than F-15
F-16 is a medium weight fighter for PAF as we have an even lighter aircraft.


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## ziaulislam

problem is that they will need new weapons, upgrades to make them very effective. that will take their price well above the j-10s. unless the UAE wants to give it free and we pay for upgrades etc its unfeasible. the best option seems to be second hand f-16s from USA..


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## SBD-3

Luftwaffe said:


> Just like Turkey...your military deals should be separate from political monkey stunts, you can call it whatever you want.


Turkey buys them, doesn't get them in occasional FMS package like us. Do you remember a single F-16 purchased by Pakistan?


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## Bratva

hasnain0099 said:


> Turkey buys them, doesn't get them in occasional FMS package like us. Do you remember a single F-16 purchased by Pakistan?



Pakistan did pay most of 5 billion dollar. I don't recall entire 5 billion deal being financed through FMS

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## Luftwaffe

hasnain0099 said:


> Turkey buys them, doesn't get them in occasional FMS package like us. Do you remember a single F-16 purchased by Pakistan?


 
You think US gave you $5.1B to pay them back to MLU 35-45 Vipers and 18 new F-16s. Maybe you need to go back to F-16 Thread. That $5.1B was out of Pakistan's pocket purely.


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## Kompromat

Okay gents back to J-10B now.


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## SBD-3

Luftwaffe said:


> You think US gave you $5.1B to pay them back to MLU 35-45 Vipers and 18 new F-16s. Maybe you need to go back to F-16 Thread. That $5.1B was out of Pakistan's pocket purely.





mafiya said:


> Pakistan did pay most of 5 billion dollar. I don't recall entire 5 billion deal being financed through FMS





> The Letter of Offer and Acceptance for the Mid-Life Update case covers the sale of the upgrade kits for Pakistan's existing fleet of Block 15 F-16 A/B aircraft, the cost of training Pakistani technicians, and the purchase of specialized tooling to accomplish the installation. Pakistan will also the MLU kits to upgrade some of the EDA F-16's we are providing them.
> 
> The MLU case was written and agreed upon by the USG and Pakistan as a "mixed funding" case, allowing Pakistan to use $108.395 million in FMF credits on the overall $891 million case. This price does not include the cost of MLU installation outside of Pakistan -- a decision that will likely push the total value of this FMF case to over $1 billion. Pakistan viewed this allowance to partially fund the case with FMF as an opening to amend it on an annual basis. The PAF leadership believes the U.S. understood Pakistan intended to use future FMF credits on the MLU case.
> 
> Pakistan believes its intent to modify the MLU LOA on an annual basis was clear from the sale's inception, saying that its approach was driven by the way the FMF program is administered. This expectation was further reinforced by the fact that Pakistan was allowed to amend both their C-130 and TPS-77 radar cases to apply more FMF to each LOA. Each case started as a mixed funding case; the U.S. allowed Pakistan to amend the case in following years until each were 100 percent FMF financed ($75 million and $100 million respectively).
> 
> Pakistan is scheduled to pay over *$711 million towards the new F-16* case and an *additional $290 million for the Mid Life Update*. In a recent meeting with Major General Helmly, the U.S. Defense Representative to Pakistan, and Richard Millies, the Deputy Director of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, ACM Tanvir informed them that Pakistan would not be able to make its June 15 MLU payment if FMF were not made available by then.
> Pakistan's F-16 Program at Risk of Failure?: Wikileaks | Pakistan Military Review


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## Kompromat

Can we quit the F-16 talk????


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## araz

Luftwaffe said:


> Trying is not a bad option $10-$15m per mirage or leave it, what do we lose.


The setup cost of infrastructure would be prohibitive . The assembly line for M2Ks is closed and spare parts would be difficult to find. It is best if welook ahead rather than looking back. Looking aheadM2Ks are not a good idea. Remember PAF has at least 4 chances of acquiring this bird and let go of all the chances for one reason or another. Must tell you something. F16s---- there is logic in procuring SOME more, even with its inherent risks, but M2Ks ___ not a logical step.
Araz


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## corefragments

back to j-10's I wanted to know if they are really better than jf-17. to me stats look quite similar .
J-10 might be slightly better but would it be a wise choice, as for PAF it's always been issue of costs of wielding a fighter platform and f-16 gives us that , but since alliances are shifting PAK should look else where for it future hardware


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## sancho

ziaulislam said:


> the price of UAE mirage is so much (especially after upgrades) that its better to acquire more older f-16s/jf-17s or j-10s



More importantly, they will be available only after 2017, when Rafales to replace the M2K-9 could be procured. By that time even a JF 17 Block 3 is possible.


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## Basel

I dont think its good now to go for M2K9s, time for that has gone, PAF may purchase more used F-16s to increase numbers and its good choice because it has still more potential to be upgraded than M2Ks because its production line is closed, further for F-16 newer blocks are available in the market and there are hundreds of F-16s in the market which will be MLUed or upgraded soon therefore many US and western companies will be willing to upgrade them to 4.5++ gen standard which will make them near to class of EF-2000 & Rafael, for current block 50s/52s radar upgraded has been presented and available by US companies and they will be happy to sale the same to Pakistan as we may have nearly 100 planes to upgrade in near future to 4.5++ standard.

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## Luftwaffe

sancho said:


> *when Rafales to replace the M2K-9 could be procured.*


 
Who told you U.A.E AF is replacing them with Rafale, it is a contender not confirmed selected by air force.

Stick to J-10 Thread Topic.


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## Ra'ad

Aoa, how are single engine fighters different from twin engine fighters in their roles and performance?
For china, do j-11 and j-10 serve the same purpose or they have different roles/missions?
Why does Pakistan always opt for single engine jets? Why not go for J-11 variants?

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## xhw1986

*Chengdu Aircraft Industry designing more advanced J-10C fighter*

*




*
A J-10B prototype takes a test flight.

The J-10B — the upgrade version of China's J-10 fighter — recently entered service with the People's Liberation Army, with its designer Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group already developing the more advanced J-10C, reports the Hong Kong-based Phoenix Television.

Equipped with an active electronically scanned array radar, Phoenix Television stated that the J-10B has the capability to take out Japan's F-15J fighters if an aerial confrontation were to occur over the disputed Diaoyutai islands (called Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China) in the East China Sea. The fighter is also built with radar absorbent material and better diverterless supersonic inlet, while its stealth capability has also been increased compared to its predecessor, the J-10A.

China is the only nation in the world which has the ability to build its own diverterless supersonic inlet other than the United States, the report said. With this technology, the J-10B is believed to be the best 4.5 generation fighter in the Asia-Pacific region. Its helmet-mounted display system designed for J-10B pilots reacts faster and it is also very similar to the US-built F-16E/F Block 60 and French-built Rafale.

However, the J-10B is primarily designed as a fighter for aerial engagement. A multirole fighter will be needed for China to conduct ground attack missions as well as aerial combat missions against potential enemies in the region and therefore the PLA Air Force and Navy Air Force will need the more advanced J-10C, Phoenix Television said.

Chengdu Aircraft Industry designing more advanced J-10C fighter｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com

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## Munir

Dual engine was a safety aspect in the past. Or to carry big loads... Today with superb engines, superb engines and superb weapons that goes in the garbage. You can talk about range yet F16 from Israel dropped bombs on Osirak. And with IFR (AND Onboard Oxygen Generating) what is the big deal these days. Surely a bigger plane is nice. Does Pakistan need it really that hard? HARDLY.

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## Munir

It makes one wonder why Chinese aircraft are not part of the sheet Saab recently showed in Brazil...

attachment.php

Don't be stupid... All those planes are having lower costs then Gripen so they would be outright stupid to show that...


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## sancho

Luftwaffe said:


> Who told you U.A.E AF is replacing them with Rafale, it is a contender not confirmed selected by air force.



It was and still is the only contender, anything else was just hot air to milk more benefits out of the French, but IF the UAE want to replace the M2K-9 anytime soon, it will be Rafales.


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## Munir

In Europe you see the reality that one hardly changes suppliers. So since they are used to French Mirage2000-5 (and they need to sell them) we can expect some strings. I thin Sancho made the correct comment. Rafale will probably the only real contender.


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## cnleio

*Beauty~!*

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## 帅的一匹

Munir said:


> Dual engine was a safety aspect in the past. Or to carry big loads... Today with superb engines, superb engines and superb weapons that goes in the garbage. You can talk about range yet F16 from Israel dropped bombs on Osirak. And with IFR (AND Onboard Oxygen Generating) what is the big deal these days. Surely a bigger plane is nice. Does Pakistan need it really that hard? HARDLY.


When WS15 with 17 tons of thrust power come in place in year 2016, if test successfully on J10B, time for PAF to get it.

China airforce will be extremely strong and standing in the top of Asian Pacific in year 2020. I think China shall provide a customized AESA radar for JF17 block 3 in the coming three years, why not?

With J10B/J11B/J16/JH7B/J20/J31 in service by 2020, I do not forsee any country could challenge China in the coming 10 years. We are too strong to be defeated. Any body standing in our way will be flushed down into historical toilet. Revenge will be made and land dispute will be solved. We will tell the world who is the boss of the Asia.

China is making his back.

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## 帅的一匹

Basel said:


> I dont think its good now to go for M2K9s, time for that has gone, PAF may purchase more used F-16s to increase numbers and its good choice because it has still more potential to be upgraded than M2Ks because its production line is closed, further for F-16 newer blocks are available in the market and there are hundreds of F-16s in the market which will be MLUed or upgraded soon therefore many US and western companies will be willing to upgrade them to 4.5++ gen standard which will make them near to class of EF-2000 & Rafael, for current block 50s/52s radar upgraded has been presented and available by US companies and they will be happy to sale the same to Pakistan as we may have nearly 100 planes to upgrade in near future to 4.5++ standard.


As the relationship between India and USA is getting more and more close, Pakistan will not bet its stake on USA like used to be.



Ra'ad said:


> Aoa, how are single engine fighters different from twin engine fighters in their roles and performance?
> For china, do j-11 and j-10 serve the same purpose or they have different roles/missions?
> Why does Pakistan always opt for single engine jets? Why not go for J-11 variants?


J10 is multi-role fighter and J11 is airsuperior firghter, i think J10 is more cost-effective than J11 for PAF. If you wanna compare J11B with J10B, i think in the air combat J11B is more durable. J10C( in the development) will be mounted with indegionous 17 tons thrust power WS15 engine make it cruise at super-sonic.

FULL PAYLOAD OF J10A

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## Luftwaffe

sancho said:


> It was and still is the only contender, anything else was just hot air to milk more benefits out of the French, but IF the UAE want to replace the M2K-9 anytime soon, it will be Rafales.


 
Boeing F-15 and F-18 E/F Super Hornet are also contenders. 25 more F-16 Desert Falcons ordered already to supplement current F-16 Fleet. Perhaps the additional 25 desert falcons might replace a squadron of original Mirage 2000EAD that were upgraded to -9 once the delivery complete sometimes in 2016-17.

There is no "will be", Clearly Dassault refused to develop more power engine and wants U.A.E to milk the project which U.A.E already refused unless Dassault agrees to develop on their part. On the other hand Boeing has no such problem.

Now can we get back at Thread Topic.


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## LTE-TDD

Official confirmed that: Comparing to J10A, J10B weight is reduced by more than 1 ton and with AESA


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## sancho

wanglaokan said:


> FULL PAYLOAD OF J10A
> View attachment 12374



That's a PS



Luftwaffe said:


> Boeing F-15 and F-18 E/F Super Hornet are also contenders. 25 more F-16 Desert Falcons ordered already to supplement current F-16 Fleet. Perhaps the additional 25 desert falcons might replace a squadron of original Mirage 2000EAD that were upgraded to -9 once the delivery complete sometimes in 2016-17.



No they are not, they were rejected already and US fighters can't replace the M2K, because they can't use the Black Shaheen cruise missile, which is a crucial capability for the UAE. They just increased the numbers of F16s, while they keep upgrading the M2Ks with more capabilities nearly every year, which shows that there is neither a need for a fast replacement, nor even would they want it, UNLESS the replacement offers similar advantages and Rafale does that. Besides that France is the only country that can buy back the M2Ks, thanks to EUM.
You clearly are not following that case that much, but anyway, I only clarified why M2Ks could not be procured by PAF anytime soon, which makes them no possible alternative, besides the fact that they might be more expensive than JF 17 Block 3 or J10Bs.


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## 帅的一匹

Weight reduction more than 1 ton? Even covert to DSI intake and using composite material, 1 ton weight reduction sounds very impossible.


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## cirr

What's up with CAC today？

J-10C ”201“ maiden flight？

J-10B delivery ceremony？

J-20XX debut？

What's the fuss？Hastily constructed reviewing stand、presence of high ranking officials and all that？

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## eazzy

Wait & see.


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## 帅的一匹

If J10b is one ton lighter than J10A by using DSI and composite material, that means J10b could carry more weapon load than J10b. If having the same max payload of J10A,then it will overtake J10A in WVR fight due to better TWR.

Everyone knows what 1 ton weight means in aviation industry.



cirr said:


> What's up with CAC today？
> 
> J-10C ”201“ maiden flight？
> 
> J-10B delivery ceremony？
> 
> J-20XX debut？
> 
> What's the fuss？Hastily constructed reviewing stand、presence of high ranking officials and all that？


CAC knows that Chinese new year is coming, time to celebrate good stuffs.


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## cirr

J-10B delivered：

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## S10

AESA has been confirmed by CCTV interview with one of the AVIC I officials.

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## fatman17

Jane's says....

The J-10B's key differences to the J-10A include a redesigned chin intake, with the lower edge now angled forward and movable ramp replaced by a smaller, fixed, diffuser bulge that also contributes to reduced weight and radar cross-section; a longer nose radome that is believed to house an NRIET active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar; and an electro-optic (EO) targeting sensor (IRST and laser rangefinder) mounted just forward of the windscreen, offset to starboard. It also has a new electronic warning or countermeasures pod atop the vertical stabiliser.

The J-10B will carry the same array of air-to-air and ground-attack weapons as the J-10A, to include a new twin-missile pylon for the Luoyang PL-12 active radar-guided air-to-air missile (AAM). Its more powerful AESA radar may also enable use of a new larger AAM first seen on a Chengdu J-20 prototype fighter earlier in 2013 and the new CASIC CM-400AKG near-hypersonic ground-attack/anti-ship missile.

The new-production J-10Bs, however, still use the same Russian Saturn AL-31FN turbofan as the J-10A. A prototype of the J-10B equipped with a version of the Shenyang-Liming WS-10A turbofan appeared in July 2011. However, limited access to this powerplant may mean that Shenyang Aircraft Corporation fighters such as the J-11B and J-15 carrier fighter have priority.

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## mughaljee

Congratulation China.


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## Beast

S10 said:


> AESA has been confirmed by CCTV interview with one of the AVIC I officials.


 Where is the video?


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## cirr

J-10Bs：
















1st pic of 102：

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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> Where is the video?


央视环球视线栏目

12月25日


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## Sinnerman108

wanglaokan said:


> Engine! engine !engine! WTF.



Chinese lunar vehicle Youtu is equipped to drill on moon's surface.

Yet .. engine engine engine  

When will this engine problem be solved ?


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## Donatello

salman108 said:


> Chinese lunar vehicle Youtu is equipped to drill on moon's surface.
> 
> Yet .. engine engine engine
> 
> When will this engine problem be solved ?




Sir building a spacecraft is MUCH easier then building a reliable & robust aircraft jet engine.

Look at the Indians. All the money and manpower in the world, yet they couldn't finish the kaveri. They have launched a space-craft to Mars, but cannot build a decent jet engine. Or a Tank engine for that purpose.

High performance engine design is more of an art than simple engineering. Like they say, devil is in the details.

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## eazzy

Isn't the problems in the materials used rather than in the design ?


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## 帅的一匹

The problem is not China can't produce reliable fighter engine, what we lack of is scale production to meet our huge requirement. Now all the WS10 engines are supplied to mount J11b and J16, no enough engine for J10B as of now. We might mount WS10a on J10b in the following batch. We will be better off in the near future.

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## Sinnerman108

Donatello said:


> Sir building a spacecraft is MUCH easier then building a reliable & robust aircraft jet engine.
> 
> Look at the Indians. All the money and manpower in the world, yet they couldn't finish the kaveri. They have launched a space-craft to Mars, but cannot build a decent jet engine. Or a Tank engine for that purpose.
> 
> High performance engine design is more of an art than simple engineering. Like they say, devil is in the details.



Building a "Rocket" is comparatively easier than making a jet engine.


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## Foo_Fighter

This plane looks pretty awesome tbh... Chinese engineering triumphant again, they way they are producing these beats and there is a lesson for India here. Hope in the future China - India relations get better to a level that we could JV a few war machines with them. All the best China!!!

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## cirr

salman108 said:


> Building a "Rocket" is comparatively easier than making a jet engine.



Developing an engine inevitably takes longer。

It is akin to raising a kid，who needs time to mature。

Both performance and reliability matter。Making the engine is the easy part，it then needs to go through all the necessary and strict tests which can't be expedited or hastened

So patience。

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## Bilal.

I have followed Pakistan and Chinese related defence development for more than 15 years now. I can vividly remember how not too long ago people used to say that China cant design a modern aircraft and projects like J-10 and JF-17 were called hoax and paper projects. Then it all became a reality and people shifted to FBW flight control system, then it became a reality with iron bird. Then they shifted to Modern radars, then they became a reality. Then they said China cant produce MRAAMs and SD-10/PL-12 is just a hoax, then it was proved to be true. So I know for sure that in a couple of years modern Chinese jet engines will be a reality so much so that many of us will forget that it was ever a problem.

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## Beast

salman108 said:


> Building a "Rocket" is comparatively easier than making a jet engine.



We have already build an engine. Using AL-31FN on J-10 is a political decision. The Russian are offering their engine at rock bottom price and is willing to listen to customer demand unlike treating the Indians.

The Russian dare not play tricks with the Chinese becos we can easily replace those engine if they are not supplying. If Salyut is not getting the Chinese engine deal. They will go bust. Russian is a strategic partner. We cannot not buying a single military stuff from them,right? Buy a few and keep both side happy, why not?

WS-10 in service.







WS-10 engines with operational aircraft and not prototypes.





We even tested a WS-10 engine on J-10 but Russian are quick to offer the best price for their AL-31FN engine for our J-10A. Plus we have a massive overhaul engine plant in sichuan which we need not worry about Russian cutting off our supplies if war started and they are not providing anymore engine. Chinese have planned everything well. No worry about engine.






AL-31FN Overhaul plant in sichuan










If engine is a problem for J-10, why would the CCP talks about selling J-10 to PAF? Only financial is stopping PAF from acquiring J-10, not engine.

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## Firoze



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## Manticore

Rafale and Chinese J10 at MAKS 2013

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## Alfa-Fighter

Beast said:


> We have already build an engine. Using AL-31FN on J-10 is a political decision. The Russian are offering their engine at rock bottom price and is willing to listen to customer demand unlike treating the Indians.
> 
> The Russian dare not play tricks with the Chinese becos we can easily replace those engine if they are not supplying. If Salyut is not getting the Chinese engine deal. They will go bust. Russian is a strategic partner. We cannot not buying a single military stuff from them,right? Buy a few and keep both side happy, why not?
> 
> WS-10 in service.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WS-10 engines with operational aircraft and not prototypes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We even tested a WS-10 engine on J-10 but Russian are quick to offer the best price for their AL-31FN engine for our J-10A. Plus we have a massive overhaul engine plant in sichuan which we need not worry about Russian cutting off our supplies if war started and they are not providing anymore engine. Chinese have planned everything well. No worry about engine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AL-31FN Overhaul plant in sichuan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If engine is a problem for J-10, why would the CCP talks about selling J-10 to PAF? Only financial is stopping PAF from acquiring J-10, not engine.


well this is from last 5 years we talking. finance is nothing , when china can finance 6 billion for nuclear plan what stopping for j-10?


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## Bratva

Where is IFR in Production version of J-10B?


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## Beast

Alfa-Fighter said:


> well this is from last 5 years we talking. finance is nothing , when china can finance 6 billion for nuclear plan what stopping for j-10?



China is loaded but she don't give money to others for free.


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## Munir

I would not be very happy to park anything near Rafale. The Americans are even looking at it that way... The issue is that Rafale has very good sensors that practically dissect anything from IR tot all radar or electronic output your plane has... Say you use your actuator. The sensor can read the output and use it in countering that response... Let us forget about just the RCS...


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## Bilal.

Munir said:


> I would not be very happy to park anything near Rafale. The Americans are even looking at it that way... The issue is that Rafale has very good sensors that practically dissect anything from IR tot all radar or electronic output your plane has... Say you use your actuator. The sensor can read the output and use it in countering that response... Let us forget about just the RCS...




I think those J-10 AYs don't carry any radar or ECM system, they are just for acrobatics...


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## Superboy

Jet engine is alien technology. Aliens gave it to the Nazis. When America and Russia beat the Nazis, they were able to take the jet engine technology.


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## Dazzler

J-10B chinese media, sqdrn induction in progress...

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## 帅的一匹

Manticore said:


> Rafale and Chinese J10 at MAKS 2013


From the picture, Rafale's radar cone is relatively small compared with J10.


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## cnleio

new J-10B and J-10S fighters leaving produce line

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## 帅的一匹

How many J10B CAC could produce per year?



Beast said:


> China is loaded but she don't give money to others for free.


At least we can sell J10B to PAF at production cost for strategic endorsement.



Bilal. said:


> I have followed Pakistan and Chinese related defence development for more than 15 years now. I can vividly remember how not too long ago people used to say that China cant design a modern aircraft and projects like J-10 and JF-17 were called hoax and paper projects. Then it all became a reality and people shifted to FBW flight control system, then it became a reality with iron bird. Then they shifted to Modern radars, then they became a reality. Then they said China cant produce MRAAMs and SD-10/PL-12 is just a hoax, then it was proved to be true. So I know for sure that in a couple of years modern Chinese jet engines will be a reality so much so that many of us will forget that it was ever a problem.


Bhi, who can image China could produce decent fighter like J10B 10 years ago? The truth is we get it done far beyond our enemies' imagination. J10b opens a new era for PLAAF, we gonna have a more brilliant future.

I just baidu J10A and J10B, they tare weight of J10B is nearly 1 ton reduction compared with J10A( credit to DSI intake and compsite material used). That means the TRW of J10B is far better than J10A when it comes to dog fight.

J10A tare weight: 9750KG
J10B tare weight: 8800KG

J10B will able to cruise at super-sonic if WS15 engine mounted on it.

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## 帅的一匹

The Saving 1 ton payload could be used to add CFT to increase J10B'S range.

Wait some 5 more years, we could solve Dioayu Island problem with Japan. In front of J20 and J10B/C, F15J is sitting ducks.



mafiya said:


> Where is IFR in Production version of J-10B?


IN FORNT of the wind shied


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## Firoze

cirr said:


> What's up with CAC today？
> 
> J-10C ”201“ maiden flight？
> 
> J-10B delivery ceremony？
> 
> J-20XX debut？
> 
> What's the fuss？Hastily constructed reviewing stand、presence of high ranking officials and all that？


is J-10C


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## ejaz007

Luftwaffe said:


> Who told you U.A.E AF is replacing them with Rafale, it is a contender not confirmed selected by air force.
> 
> Stick to J-10 Thread Topic.




UAE tender for replacing Mirages is almost dead.

Warming of relations between Iran and West has its first casualty.


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## cirr

Firoze said:


> is J-10C



According to the following report dated 27.12.2013，Inst. 601 has completed design diagrams for two types of jets：

沈阳所完成全年科研任务 2型飞机设计发图完成|沈飞|全年|科研_新浪军事

Any idea what they might be？J-11D？“J-18”？J-15E（E for electronic warfare）？


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## Firoze

cirr said:


> According to the following report dated 27.12.2013，Inst. 601 has completed design diagrams for two types of jets：
> 
> 沈阳所完成全年科研任务 2型飞机设计发图完成|沈飞|全年|科研_新浪军事
> 
> Any idea what they might be？J-11D？“J-18”？J-15E（E for electronic warfare）？


I have no idea but I heard that the J-11D will similar to the SU-35,the J-18 will similar to the SU-34.


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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007

j-10c

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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## Crypto

Dazzler said:


> J-10B chinese media, sqdrn induction in progress...



Nice find, can any Chinese member summarize what is shown from 14:00 - 16:00?
I believe they are talking about the AESA radar and range compared to other fighters!

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## graphican

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 12782



Out of memory, I never saw CFTs on FC-20 and its technical drawings before. May be they have added now or perhaps it is work of some fan-boy. Other than these drawings, we do not have a confirmation if FC-20s exist or if they are coming towards Pakistan. Its good to see such images but I would place them in the genre of Fantasy unless confirmed.

*An observation and a question:* FC-20 doesn't seem to have IRST or if they do, they are on the lateral side of the cone. If they are placed like that, does that mean there would be two IRSTs instead of one? OR if there is one, it will only be able to see straight and left and right-side will remain blinded?


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## Dazzler

C

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Do we have a counter already for our deliveries of the beautiful birds ? 11 more months till arrival ?

Are we getting these in August or December as present ?

Just imagining the unveiling ceremonies for Pakistani J10B birds


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## HRK

Dazzler said:


> *C*



How ....???

look similar to 'B' in fact look like earlier B models .....





IFR probe also missing .........


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## Manticore



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## Manticore

http://i.imgur.com/4NEG6L5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/eSlCbdi.png
http://i.imgur.com/4NEG6L5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/x4G2r01.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xDcFsmv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NREPyaE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/own5VDX.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YLevfqR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lmqLvdT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lL6qwl0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Y22vo4E.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ht17VRm.png
http://i.imgur.com/pzLkzLX.png
http://i.imgur.com/jaVaGXf.png
http://i.imgur.com/JAIoSk6.png
http://i.imgur.com/3Mv821L.png
http://i.imgur.com/mlxUvEZ.png
http://i.imgur.com/3GAR2bC.png
http://i.imgur.com/aqmEaSs.png
http://i.imgur.com/9i3t5qe.png
http://i.imgur.com/dq3Mu3W.png
http://i.imgur.com/x1Ag57t.png
J10B models might be the base of j10c without drastic changes

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## Manticore



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## monitor

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 12782




From the picture Pakistan's FC-20 would have CFT but not IRST like J-10B why Pakistan is discarding the IRST option for Their variant ?


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## razgriz19

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Do we have a counter already for our deliveries of the beautiful birds ? 11 more months till arrival ?
> 
> Are we getting these in August or December as present ?
> 
> Just imagining the unveiling ceremonies for Pakistani J10B birds



Why is everyone daydreaming?
PAF hasn't even officially ordered them yet.
All the funds are going towards Jf-17 program


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## Dazzler

two things....

* FC-20/ J-10B or xx whatever version is still on PAF's list, its just that they are more focussed on jf-17, sort of first thing first stuff. jf-17 is the mainstay, the bulk, the workhorse but the top tier is still vacant which the FC-20 will fill. 

* Senior Chinese members (Deino etc) stating that J-10C is just a conversion of A into B. However, its too early to assume this to be the case unless confirmed.

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## qinglong-china

razgriz19 said:


> Why is everyone daydreaming?
> PAF hasn't even officially ordered them yet.
> All the funds are going towards Jf-17 program


There are too many confusing news on the Internet.
I think it is right that all the funds are going towards Jf-17 program.
It promotes the development of national defense industry

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## sancho

Dazzler said:


> * Senior Chinese members (Deino etc) stating that J-10C is just a conversion of A into B. However, its too early to assume this to be the case unless confirmed.



That's like saying 1+1=3 isn't it? In any case, the A's should be upgraded to B level including all air intake modifications, but the addition of a CFT alone, doesn't make it a whole new upgrade standard (C), so there should be more behind it don't you think?

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## Dazzler

sancho said:


> That's like saying 1+1=3 isn't it? In any case, the A's should be upgraded to B level including all air intake modifications, but the addition of a CFT alone, doesn't make it a whole new upgrade standard (C), so there should be more behind it don't you think?




As i said, there is plenty of confusion regarding the C version, even among chinese members.


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## nomi007

*J-10B/C Vigorous Dragon*
The latest 1035 prototype of the *J-10B* (K/JJ10B?) was photographed at CAC airfield in July 2011, revealing the indigenous WS-10B (?) turbofan engine. This much improved variant made its maiden flight on December 23, 2008, powered by a Russian AL-31FN engine (1031 prototype). The improvements include a DSI/bump engine inlet which not only cuts weight but also reduces RCS, after a similar design was first tested onboard *FC-1/JF-17*. The aircraft also features a *J-11B* style IRST/LR, a *JF-17* style glass cockpit with a wide-angle holographic HUD, and an HMDS. The new IRST allows passive detection of enemy aircraft, making *J-10B* more stealthy in combat. Its nose appears flatter too, similar to that of American F-16, housing fire-control radar which could be an X-band AESA developed by the 14th Institute (track 10, engage 4 simultaneously), the first of such type ever being developed for a Chinese fighter aircraft, giving *J-10B* a stronger multi-target engagement and ECCM capability. It was rumored that initially the aircraft was planned to fit a PESA radar developed by the 607 Institute but in the end this proposal was rejected by PLAAF in favor of an AESA radar. An ECM antenna can also be seen right in front of the canard foreplane on 1035. Two large pods housing testing equipments were attached under the wings. The tip of vertical tailfin was redesigned as well, featuring a large fairing containing communication and ECM antennas, which resembles that of French Mirage 2000. A rear facing MAWS sensor can be seen underneath the parachute boom. A similar system was tested onboard *FC-1/JF-17*. RAM coating is also expected in certain areas such as engine inlet and wing leading edges to reduce RCS. The aircraft may be fitted with CFTs in the future to further extend its range. All these improvements suggest that *J-10B* is equipped with a new generation of integrated electronic system, ranging from radar to EW system. Its mission may be changed from air-superiority to multi-role, such as CAS or EW. For air-superiority mission, normally 6 AAMs (PL-12x4 + PL-8x2, PL-12s are carried underneath the twin-rail launch pylon) can be carried. For CAS mission, normally 2 KD-88 AGMs or LS-500J LGBs can be carried. In addition, the aircraft is expected to be powered eventually by a WS-10B turbofan after its reliability issues have been resolved. Overall *J-10B* is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60. The 03 prototype (1033) first flew in August 2009, with the pitot tube removed from the nose tip. Both 1031 & 1034 prototypes have been tested at CFTE. *J-10B* is likely to serve as a testbed for various advanced technologies adopted by the 4th generation *J-20* currently under development at CAC thus may not enter the service in large quantity with PLAAF. Recent images (March 2013) indicated that the 1031 prototype has been modified with ECM antennas installed ahead of the canard foreplanes similar to those onboard 1035, which represents the final configuration before the production. The production of *J-10B* finally started in 2013 after some delay, due to the availability of a suitable engine. It was speculated that the first batch of production *J-10B*s will be powered by Russian AL-31FN engine and could enter the service with PLAAF 44th Division as early as late 2013. It was rumored in June 2013 that a further upgraded semi-stealth multi-role variant (*J-10C*) with enhanced 4th generation electronics including a more powerful AESA radar, more composite material and a more powerful engine was under development. The latest images (December 2013) indicated the 01 batch have been produced and are preparing for the delivery. Meanwhile the *J-10C* 2-01 prototype took to the sky for the first time on December 31, 2013. The aircraft appears to have high similarity with *J-10B* except an extra yellow antenna on its back.
*J-10C




J-10B




check the series numbers*


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## trident2010

^^^ both looks same externally ??


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## Kompromat

trident2010 said:


> ^^^ both looks same externally ??



Its a testbed.

Don't expect too many cosmatic changes in J-10C.


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## sancho

Crossposting from CDF (credits to *PAKFA*):

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## sancho

nomi007 said:


> *J-10B/C Vigorous Dragon*_*
> 
> ...*_(*J-10C*) with enhanced 4th generation electronics *including a more powerful AESA radar*, more composite material *and a more powerful engine* was under development.




What if...

...J10B doesn't include an AESA yet?

The rumors were always unclear about PESA/AESA and the engine isn't ready either. So is it possible that J10B is a stop gap with the external modifications, to start the production, while the latter C version will be the one with indigenous engine and AESA radar?
In this case @Dazzler s info's would make sense again, that the J10As will be converted to J10Cs and not to B's, because then they would get the whole upgrade of external and internal changes, rather than keep using the same Russian engine and maybe even the same KJ10?

And IF J10B is just a stopgap now, could that also be a reason why PAF had not signed an order yet?

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## Dazzler

sancho said:


> What if...
> 
> ...J10B doesn't include an AESA yet?
> 
> The rumors were always unclear about PESA/AESA and the engine isn't ready either. So is it possible that J10B is a stop gap with the external modifications, to start the production, while the latter C version will be the one with indigenous engine and AESA radar?
> In this case @Dazzler s info's would make sense again, that the J10As will be converted to J10Cs and not to B's, because then they would get the whole upgrade of external and internal changes, rather than keep using the same Russian engine and maybe even the same KJ10?
> 
> And IF J10B is just a stopgap now, could that also be a reason why PAF had not signed an order yet?




I recall KJ-2000, KJ-200 and ZDK-03 designer's interview where he mentioned that Chinese went directly to AESA technology skipping PESA in the process for both AWACS and fighter aircraft.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> What if...
> 
> ...J10B doesn't include an AESA yet?
> 
> The rumors were always unclear about PESA/AESA and the engine isn't ready either. So is it possible that J10B is a stop gap with the external modifications, to start the production, while the latter C version will be the one with indigenous engine and AESA radar?
> In this case @Dazzler s info's would make sense again, that the J10As will be converted to J10Cs and not to B's, because then they would get the whole upgrade of external and internal changes, rather than keep using the same Russian engine and maybe even the same KJ10?
> 
> And IF J10B is just a stopgap now, could that also be a reason why PAF had not signed an order yet?



The stop gap was never going to come circa 2011. There were never funds. Perhaps things have changed but I still believe that the PAF will not be going after the J-10 at all and instead will stick with the F-16 and JF-17 mix till it has the funds to pursue a 5th gen asset.



Dazzler said:


> I recall KJ-2000, KJ-200 and ZDK-03 designer's interview where he mentioned that Chinese went *directly to AESA* technology skipping PESA in the process for both AWACS and fighter aircraft.



the AESA on the ZDK-03 is "incomplete". Its arrays are all "active" but can only scan vertically. Which is why it has the rotadome to ensure 360 coverage. Thus, it still has gaps in its coverage momentarily while the E-2D has possibly the best coverage of any AEW system so far.

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## Dazzler

Oscar said:


> The stop gap was never going to come circa 2011. There were never funds. Perhaps things have changed but I still believe that the PAF will not be going after the J-10 at all and instead will stick with the F-16 and JF-17 mix till it has the funds to pursue a 5th gen asset.
> 
> 
> 
> the AESA on the ZDK-03 is "incomplete". Its arrays are all "active" but can only scan vertically. Which is why it has the rotadome to ensure 360 coverage. Thus, it still has gaps in its coverage momentarily while the E-2D has possibly the best coverage of any AEW system so far.





cost saving measure, two rotating ESA arrays instead of three fixed ones. 




> Interview with Vice Chief Designer of ZDK03 (AEW for export) He Said: airborne early warning radar in our country as a breakthrough, achieved airborne radar equipment from the mechanical to the active phased array scanning across, did not engage in passive phased array, first in the world equipped with a two-dimensional active phased array early warning radar, that the radar beam in the horizontal direction and the height direction can be electronically scanned, which also led to the fighter fire control radar equipment using active phased array.


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## SQ8

Dazzler said:


> cost saving measure, two rotating ESA arrays instead of three fixed ones.



Nope, Cost saving was never the deal.. technical issue with the design.


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Nope, Cost saving was never the deal.. technical issue with the design.




So how does it compare with the ERIEYE ESA, that is fixed and can scan in horizontal and vertical?


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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> So how does it compare with the ERIEYE ESA, that is fixed and can scan in horizontal and vertical?



Not as sophisticated in terms of beamforming or simultaneous modes. But as such makes up for it with a faster scan rate and full 360 coverage(The Erieye is closer to 340 using some techniques)

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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Not as sophisticated in terms of beamforming or simultaneous modes. But as such makes up for it with a faster scan rate and full 360 coverage(The Erieye is closer to 340 using some techniques)




Any plans on getting any more AWACs from China? Or same old funding issues?


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## araz

Donatello post: 5129684 said:


> Any plans on getting any more AWACs from China? Or same old funding issues?


Do we need anymore? I think we have enough numbers. However I do remember at the time when ZKD 03 was bought one of the reasons that was dlgiven was that we would be able to research more into it and be able to modify thimgs as per our needs. As such once we start to tinker about with it and do improve it (big if!!!) Iam sure those changez canbe incorporated into the ZKD 03.
Araz


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## Dazzler

ZDK-03 also has a longer search and track range than Erieye, exactly how long? is anyone's guess


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## Donatello

Dazzler said:


> ZDK-03 also has a longer search and track range than Erieye, exactly how long? is anyone's guess



One, the exact figures would never be revealed.

Second, it depends on what the search range is for. A 747 Jumbo or a Mig 21 size target?


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## Dazzler

unless Alan Warnes is allowed to reveal it like he did so with the jf-17 AoA


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## PoKeMon

What is the vision 2025 for PAF?

How many combat aircraft they want to operate? 250 thunders and 60 F-16 make it 300+ fighters. This doesn't left PAF to spend more on numbers, may be 2 more squadron of 5th gen around 2025. 350+ is a good number for a country size of pakistan. Mind you, 350+ might be lesser than current strength but overall higher in capabilities.


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> The stop gap was never going to come circa 2011. There were never funds. Perhaps things have changed but I still believe that the PAF will not be going after the J-10 at all and instead will stick with the F-16 and JF-17 mix till it has the funds to pursue a 5th gen asset.



I think so too and I know about the funding issue, but that's the PAF side, I just tried to point out, that there also might be a Chinese side of the problem, by not having the fighter ready at a technical level as is should be. I am saying for quiet some time that J10B doesn't add too much to PAF compared to JF17, but if the radar isn't ready either, it surely have no importance at all. A J10C then again, IF it really can come with CFTs, AESA and the new engine, will offer clearly more to PAF, although still not a game changer like a 5th gen fighter of course.

Some pics from the MP forum:

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## monitor

Fuel dumping


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## Kompromat

@sancho

For us : No new jet until 2020.

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## fatman17

IND_PAK said:


> What is the vision 2025 for PAF?
> 
> How many combat aircraft they want to operate? 250 thunders and 60 F-16 make it 300+ fighters. This doesn't left PAF to spend more on numbers, may be 2 more squadron of 5th gen around 2025. 350+ is a good number for a country size of pakistan. Mind you, 350+ might be lesser than current strength but overall higher in capabilities.


 
its not about increasing the number of combat aircraft. roughly 350-375 are servicable. its about modernization of the fleet. induct more F-16s new or upgraded, 150 Thunders Blk-1-2-3 will replace the A-5's (completed), older mirages and F-7's. J-10B/FC-20 is a possibility if it is powered by a chinese engine, the J-16 may be on offer but thats around 2025. fleet tankers, AWACS, air defence systems.

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## PoKeMon

fatman17 said:


> its not about increasing the number of combat aircraft. roughly 350-375 are servicable. its about modernization of the fleet. induct more F-16s new or upgraded, 150 Thunders Blk-1-2-3 will replace the A-5's (completed), older mirages and F-7's. J-10B/FC-20 is a possibility if it is powered by a chinese engine, the J-16 may be on offer but thats around 2025. fleet tankers, AWACS, air defence systems.



Sir I have already stated what you infer.


> 350+ might be lesser than current strength but overall higher in capabilities.



However the number do matter in terms of maintenance and purchase cost. By number I am trying to figure out where is the space for new aircraft. PAF, I believe can not afford to maintain more than 350-375 4th and 4+ gen fighters and if thunders, F-16 and 2-3 sqdn of 5th gen (in future) already makes the number where is the space left to posses J-10/J-16. I dont think you have that money to waste in stop gap measures before getting hands on a cheap 5th gen fighters.


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## fatman17

IND_PAK said:


> Sir I have already stated what you infer.
> 
> 
> However the number do matter in terms of maintenance and purchase cost. By number I am trying to figure out where is the space for new aircraft. PAF, I believe can not afford to maintain more than 350-375 4th and 4+ gen fighters and if thunders, F-16 and 2-3 sqdn of 5th gen (in future) already makes the number where is the space left to posses J-10/J-16. I dont think you have that money to waste in stop gap measures before getting hands on a cheap 5th gen fighters.


 
u say *space for new aircraft* - not in terms of new sqdns but replacement / modernization, there is plenty of space. for example, the J-10 would replace the mirage-ROSE squadron in the tactical/night attack role. J-16 could start replacing the older F-16s at some point. it is hoped that the economy will not flounder at 3-4% growth but improve if the basic economic fundamentals are improved. money is always available, not in abundance but enough. we dont want more than 20-22 combat squadrons. its about improving the technological edge.

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## Armstrong

fatman17 said:


> u say *space for new aircraft* - not in terms of new sqdns but replacement / modernization, there is plenty of space. for example, the J-10 would replace the mirage-ROSE squadron in the tactical/night attack role. J-16 could start replacing the older F-16s at some point. it is hoped that the economy will not flounder at 3-4% growth but improve if the basic economic fundamentals are improved. money is always available, not in abundance but enough. we dont want more than 20-22 combat squadrons. its about improving the technological edge.



So the J-10s are still on the cards ?  

But why in god's name would we go for something like the J-16 ?


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## khanasifm

First pic of J-10 with center line station carrying weapon instead of tank unless its Photoshopped.


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## PoKeMon

fatman17 said:


> u say *space for new aircraft* - not in terms of new sqdns but replacement / modernization, there is plenty of space. for example, the J-10 would replace the mirage-ROSE squadron in the tactical/night attack role. J-16 could start replacing the older F-16s at some point. it is hoped that the economy will not flounder at 3-4% growth but improve if the basic economic fundamentals are improved. money is always available, not in abundance but enough. we dont want more than 20-22 combat squadrons. its about improving the technological edge.



I am sorry but either I am not clear or you are getting it wrong.

Say you have 250 fighters and you want to replace them. If you are inducting 250 JF-17 then where is the space for J-10. Either reduce the number of thunders say 200 Thunders and 50 J-10 or say you will have more than 250 and you are gonna increase the PAF strength in number. Here comes the cost issue.

You are saying 20-22 sqdns is what you think is optimal. That sums to 400+ odd fighters. Thunders clubbed with F-16 will sum to 310. You will then have space for 2 sqds of J-10 and another 2 sqd of 5th gen fighter. IMO thats not the best configuration. adding an additional platform just for 2 sqds is not worthy. I will suggest - 

1-An additional sqd for F-16. J-10 anyhow is meant to do similar job as F-16. Also I am not sure how much value difference a J-10 will add when JF-17 Mk III will be in production.
2-Have 3 sqds of 5th gen fighter instead of 2.

That will have same technology advancement with additional 5th gen fire power(hoping a better economy around 2020).

When do you expect your F-16 to start phasing out? If its sooner than decade, J-10 comes more into picture.


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## siegecrossbow

Just my personal opinion: I think it is better for Pakistan to wait for J-31 (F-60). It makes sense on multiple levels. First and foremost, introducing the J-10B (FC-20) will cause maintenance issues since Pakistan will probably need to support a WS-10 variant engine. This is not a problem for the J-31, which will use WS-13 (RD-93 derivative) that will be compatible with the engines on JF-17s. Secondly, J-31 offers true Fifth gen capabilities. Given that India will introduce FGFA in the late 2010s and early 2020s time frame, it makes more sense to purchase a smaller number of capable fighters that could at least match the IAF fighters' performance.

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## sancho

siegecrossbow said:


> Just my personal opinion: I think it is better for Pakistan to wait for J-31 (F-60). It makes sense on multiple levels. First and foremost, introducing the J-10B (FC-20) will cause maintenance issues since Pakistan will probably need to support a WS-10 variant engine. This is not a problem for the J-31, which will use WS-13 (RD-93 derivative) that will be compatible with the engines on JF-17s. Secondly, J-31 offers true Fifth gen capabilities. Given that India will introduce FGFA in the late 2010s and early 2020s time frame, it makes more sense to purchase a smaller number of capable fighters that could at least match the IAF fighters' performance.



That's of course the preferable way, but the problem will remain the funding, even more for a twin engined 5th gen fighter, that is far more expensive to procure and to operate. The fact that it uses the same engine as JF 17 will only be a small advantage. 
A J10C (IF it will come with CFTs), will offer more capabilities at least over JF 17 and would be more affordable.


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## Kompromat

sancho said:


> That's of course the preferable way, but the problem will remain the funding, even more for a twin engined 5th gen fighter, that is far more expensive to procure and to operate. The fact that it uses the same engine as JF 17 will only be a small advantage.
> A J10C (IF it will come with CFTs), will offer more capabilities at least over JF 17 and would be more affordable.



Time for the J-10B/C has come and gone for PAF. They ought to save up for a leap towards a 5th gen platform.


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## dexter

siegecrossbow said:


> Just my personal opinion: I think it is better for Pakistan to wait for J-31 (F-60). It makes sense on multiple levels. First and foremost, introducing the J-10B (FC-20) will cause maintenance issues since Pakistan will probably need to support a WS-10 variant engine. This is not a problem for the J-31, which will use WS-13 (RD-93 derivative) that will be compatible with the engines on JF-17s. Secondly, J-31 offers true Fifth gen capabilities. Given that India will introduce FGFA in the late 2010s and early 2020s time frame, it makes more sense to purchase a smaller number of capable fighters that could at least match the IAF fighters' performance.



Agree 
Its better to stay focus on JF-17 development and in next 10 years if our economy grows (InsahaaAllah) we can go for J-31(F-60)

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## nomi007



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## graphican

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 14200



Is it real? Doesn't seem to be photoshop but I cannot believe I am looking at twin engine J-10!!??!!


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## Basel

J-10B/C may be good plane but things around Pakistan and in tech world is evolving to fast and sadly Pakistan don't have funds to finance what all products it want, therefore PAF may wait for 5th gen option which is the real future ahead and those who are pushing J-31 as option specifically to PAF kindly provide some credible source, because the contract Pakistan signed with China never mentioned for J-31 it said new stealth plane and China at that time had plenty on design stage, so only PAF official can tell which 5th gen plane PAF will go for.

Further with news emerging of KSA getting interested in JF-17s could change the dimension of JF-17 program and could take it to more modern plane than J-10B/C.


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## SQ8

graphican said:


> Is it real? Doesn't seem to be photoshop but I cannot believe I am looking at twin engine J-10!!??!!


Photoshop, posted before.. debunked before. but people just need to post stuff for the heck of it.

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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Photoshop, posted before.. debunked before. but people just need to post stuff for the heck of it.



Is it not better to close this thread, or pehaps move it to Chinese defence section, as J-10s are not coming to Pakistan.....(As quoted in the recent article by Air Commodore Mahmood Khalid)


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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Is it not better to close this thread, or pehaps move it to Chinese defence section, as J-10s are not coming to Pakistan.....(As quoted in the recent article by Air Commodore Mahmood Khalid)



What will happen to all the wishful thinkers??? 

To be fair, it was in the pipeline but a paucity of funds scuttled the idea around 2009-10.


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## TOPGUN

Damn, sad to hear that j-10's won't be coming to PAF but its reality it is what it is .


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## razgriz19

I'm glad they are not coming to PAF, the only real advantage over Jf-17 is the payload. And there is no point in having two different aircraft of same class. F-16 can do the J-10 job much more effectively.


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## Akasa

razgriz19 said:


> I'm glad they are not coming to PAF, the only real advantage over Jf-17 is the payload. And there is no point in having two different aircraft of same class. F-16 can do the J-10 job much more effectively.



Uh, payload is one of the advantages.

Others include an AESA radar, more RAM, more composites, more powerful engine, new sensor fusion, solid state electronics, new cockpit, higher speed, greater range, advanced helmet mounted display, etc.

The J-10B would essentially provide 4.5 generation capabilities to the PAF.



TOPGUN said:


> Damn, sad to hear that j-10's won't be coming to PAF but its reality it is what it is .



There's no confirmation to either side of the story, so it is best to hold out until more solid news come in.



sancho said:


> I think so too and I know about the funding issue, but that's the PAF side, I just tried to point out, that there also might be a Chinese side of the problem, by not having the fighter ready at a technical level as is should be. I am saying for quiet some time that J10B doesn't add too much to PAF compared to JF17, but if the radar isn't ready either, it surely have no importance at all. A J10C then again, IF it really can come with CFTs, AESA and the new engine, will offer clearly more to PAF, although still not a game changer like a 5th gen fighter of course.
> 
> Some pics from the MP forum:



Saying that the J-10B doesn't add too much would be hugely erroneous.

The J-10B would provide an AESA, more composites, RAM, more powerful engine, IRST, IFR, and most importantly, it has the range that the JF-17 does not.

Its radar has been long ready, since it was the first of many types of AESA radars that are now in service, which includes the likes of the J-11B, J-15, and J-16.



nomi007 said:


> View attachment 14200



The J-10C is likely to be an upgrade with the following changes:

- greater wing area to accommodate more hardpoints
- CFT (although IMHO the J-10B could carry them as well eventually)
- new generation AESA
- greater engine thrust (perhaps upgraded WS-10B)
- twin seats
- dorsal spine

Twin engine variants would require a redesign and thus make it a new type of aircraft.

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## Dazzler

out of your list, many of them would be on certain jft batches, the standout part is range, engine, and payload. Radar, weapons, avionics etc would be pretty close in future.

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## Akasa

Dazzler said:


> out of your list, many of them would be on certain jft batches, the standout part is range, engine, and payload. Radar, weapons, avionics etc would be pretty close in future.



Perhaps, but the small size of the JF-17 makes such upgrades severely limited, even if the price of such upgrade schemes is ignored. In other words, an airframe like the J-15 would offer a lot more upgrade potential than would the J-10B, which is also one of the reasons the Chinese are paying more attention to installing fifth generation components on the J-15 and J-16 rather than the five-year-delayed J-10B program.

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## Dazzler

SinoSoldier said:


> Perhaps, but the small size of the JF-17 makes such upgrades severely limited, even if the price of such upgrade schemes is ignored. In other words, an airframe like the J-15 would offer a lot more upgrade potential than would the J-10B, which is also one of the reasons the Chinese are paying more attention to installing fifth generation components on the J-15 and J-16 rather than the five-year-delayed J-10B program.




range and payload is important surely, lets see.


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## Superboy

SinoSoldier said:


> Perhaps, but the small size of the JF-17 makes such upgrades severely limited, even if the price of such upgrade schemes is ignored. In other words, an airframe like the J-15 would offer a lot more upgrade potential than would the J-10B, which is also one of the reasons the Chinese are paying more attention to installing fifth generation components on the J-15 and J-16 rather than the five-year-delayed J-10B program.




Flanker cannot be upgraded with DSI like J-10 could. Flankers begin to be replaced by J-20 by 2017.


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## sancho

SinoSoldier said:


> Saying that the J-10B doesn't add too much would be hugely erroneous.
> 
> The J-10B would provide an AESA, more composites, RAM, more powerful engine, IRST, IFR, and most importantly, it has the range that the JF-17 does not.



When we stick to the know facts, it isn't! You have to compare it with the JF17 Block 3, since that version is meant to be the same technical standard and then we have...

...most likely AESA radar
...composites and RAM
...more powerful engines
...IRST

IFR is already provided with the Block 2 and where do you see a big range advantage? Both can carry only 3 fuel tanks and will carry the same ammount of fuel tanks in the same roles. In fact that is exactly my point, without CFTs, J10B offers no load advantage to the light class JF 17, except for LGB strikes.

And since we know that the B don't have more powerful engines now and not even AESA is confirmed yet, I remain with to say that it's by far not a big upgrade yet.

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## Superboy

sancho said:


> And since we know that the B don't have more powerful engines now and not even AESA is confirmed yet, I remain with to say that it's by far not a big upgrade yet.




J-10B surely has AESA.


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## graphican

PAF wanted to have 100 front-line fighters and there was a possibility that Pakistan would buy F-16s from a 3rd country. Order of 36 J-10s on top of existing F-16s would have made it possible. Now if J-10s are not coming.. what is option for us? None?


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## sancho

graphican said:


> Now if J-10s are not coming.. what is option for us? None?



Focusing more on the improvement of JF 17, with a NG fighter in mind for the long term, that actually would add punch, which the J10B can't.

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## Superboy

graphican said:


> PAF wanted to have 100 front-line fighters and there was a possibility that Pakistan would buy F-16s from a 3rd country. Order of 36 J-10s on top of existing F-16s would have made it possible. Now if J-10s are not coming.. what is option for us? None?




I suppose another batch of 18 F-16 Block 52+ could come in handy at this point for another F-16 squadron. Pakistan needs to beef up its fleet of medium fighters.


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## 帅的一匹

sancho said:


> Focusing more on the improvement of JF 17, with a NG fighter in mind for the long term, that actually would add punch, which the J10B can't.


J10b is a very advanced 4.5+ fighter, it sure means something for PLAAF. The price of J10b for PAF is only 45millions USD per, this kind of low price offered is fully based of brotherhood relationship between China and Pakistan. I can feel IAf really cares about whether PAF induct J10b or not. It could enhance PAF to another new level. You guys really underestimate J10b. The unit price of Rafale has reached 120 millions per, even country rich like India can't afford it. I strongly believe PAF will induct J10b in the future, at least 2 squadrons.

J10b is nearly on par with Rafale with only one thirds of it's price, that's the lucky part of PAF that IAF will never be able to enjoy.

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## GobindSinghBadal

wanglaokan said:


> J10b is a very advanced 4.5+ fighter, it sure means something for PLAAF. The price of J10b for PAF is only 45millions USD per, this kind of low price offered is fully based of brotherhood relationship between China and Pakistan. I can feel IAf really cares about whether PAF induct J10b or not. It could enhance PAF to another new level. You guys really underestimate J10b. The unit price of Rafale has reached 120 millions per, even country rich like India can't afford it. I strongly believe PAF will induct J10b in the future, at least 2 squadrons.
> 
> J10b is nearly on par with Rafale with only one thirds of it's price, that's the lucky part of PAF that IAF will never be able to enjoy.


yeah @wanglaokan u r right but somehow u r underestimating indian lust

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## Kompromat

wanglaokan said:


> J10b is a very advanced 4.5+ fighter, it sure means something for PLAAF. The price of J10b for PAF is only 45millions USD per, this kind of low price offered is fully based of brotherhood relationship between China and Pakistan. I can feel IAf really cares about whether PAF induct J10b or not. It could enhance PAF to another new level. You guys really underestimate J10b. The unit price of Rafale has reached 120 millions per, even country rich like India can't afford it. I strongly believe PAF will induct J10b in the future, at least 2 squadrons.
> 
> J10b is nearly on par with Rafale with only one thirds of it's price, that's the lucky part of PAF that IAF will never be able to enjoy.



When our economy recovers.

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## nomi007

* [Original] China to sell Pakistan F -10 afraid of technology leakage? [Have I read] *
*According to the Indian Rediff website reported on June 22, Indian Defense Research Scholars Tallahassee - Pant (Harsh V Pant), said China to Pakistan fighter supply China developed the first machine - a third generation fighter J-10. The total amount of the transaction to reach $ 6 billion. 




The J-10 for a long time in the future, will be the People's Liberation Army Air Force 's main models. To Pakistan after the sale, the J-10 is facing possible leakage of technology. 



First, Pakistan has some of the military industrial capacity, the J-10's core technology, there may be Pakistani weapons experts slowly figured out, then grasp; 



Secondly, Pakistan, Europe and the United States have a good relationship, especially in order to balance China, the United States is not the time to win over Pakistan, which has sold F-16 . So the United States may be obtained by Pakistani F -10 . Once the United States after obtaining the J-10, will be able for its weaknesses, worked out a set of checks and balances of the J-10 combat methods, the Chinese Air Force is extremely unfavorable; 



Finally, the Pakistani pilot is not impossible driving the J-10 defected to India.
铁血论坛 ? 铁血社区 - 铁血网
*


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## Kompromat

^ Sounds utter crap.

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## Last Samuri

I think now the Rafale saga will soon end with the IAF unable to find the estimated $25 billion plus to complete the MMRCA saga the PAFs need for J10 is no more.

Save the $2 or $3 billion and spend on J31 in 2020.

In the mean time beg borrow steal another 18 block 52S from USA.

Other than the mk1 tejas i can t see anything new entering indian air force now until 2022 with fgfa. possibly mk2 tejas in 2018

there is nothing to get concerned about now


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## Donatello

sancho said:


> When we stick to the know facts, it isn't! You have to compare it with the JF17 Block 3, since that version is meant to be the same technical standard and then we have...
> 
> ...most likely AESA radar
> ...composites and RAM
> ...more powerful engines
> ...IRST
> 
> IFR is already provided with the Block 2 and where do you see a big range advantage? Both can carry only 3 fuel tanks and will carry the same ammount of fuel tanks in the same roles. In fact that is exactly my point, without CFTs, J10B offers no load advantage to the light class JF 17, except for LGB strikes.
> 
> And since we know that the B don't have more powerful engines now and not even AESA is confirmed yet, I remain with to say that it's by far not a big upgrade yet.




J-10 offers 50% more payload on more hardpoints. So it is essentially a BVR 'Truck' and can be optimized for anti-ship roles as well.

Range for Pakistan doesn't mean much since most of the country east to west is very small and the idea is to take out enemy airbases. Since a large number of Indian Airbases are already within strike range and with standoff weapons, striking them isn't a far thing.



Oscar said:


> What will happen to all the wishful thinkers???
> 
> To be fair, it was in the pipeline but a paucity of funds scuttled the idea around 2009-10.



It can still be in the pipeline if funds mature. We know one thing, with the Chinese we don't have limits on what we can buy. Just bring up the funds and get what you want.

Unlike USA, where even if you have funds, so many blah blah restrictions.


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## Superboy

Last Samuri said:


> I think now the Rafale saga will soon end with the IAF unable to find the estimated $25 billion plus to complete the MMRCA saga the PAFs need for J10 is no more.
> 
> Save the $2 or $3 billion and spend on J31 in 2020.
> 
> In the mean time beg borrow steal another 18 block 52S from USA.
> 
> Other than the mk1 tejas i can t see anything new entering indian air force now until 2022 with fgfa. possibly mk2 tejas in 2018
> 
> there is nothing to get concerned about now




Tejas Mk 2 by 2018? Yeah right. It's not even on the drawing board.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Superboy said:


> Tejas Mk 2 by 2018? Yeah right. It's not even on the drawing board.



Ignore the indian fanboy..


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## Akasa

sancho said:


> When we stick to the know facts, it isn't! You have to compare it with the JF17 Block 3, since that version is meant to be the same technical standard and then we have...
> 
> ...most likely AESA radar
> ...composites and RAM
> ...more powerful engines
> ...IRST
> 
> IFR is already provided with the Block 2 and where do you see a big range advantage? Both can carry only 3 fuel tanks and will carry the same ammount of fuel tanks in the same roles. In fact that is exactly my point, without CFTs, J10B offers no load advantage to the light class JF 17, except for LGB strikes.
> 
> And since we know that the B don't have more powerful engines now and not even AESA is confirmed yet, I remain with to say that it's by far not a big upgrade yet.


 
There is also the difference between having an upgrade and the extent to which it was applied. The BIII might include these things but whether these upgrades are as powerful as the ones on the J-10B is another issue.

The J-10B offers far more internal fuel load than the JF-17. It also features a 6-tonne payload and 11 hardpoints, all of which outclass the JF-17. It uses a 132 kN WS10B engine and its AESA has been long confirmed.

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## Superboy

PAF's first 60 F-6 fighters were delivered for free. If PAF needs the J-10, it WILL get delivered.  Money is never an issue.


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## Last Samuri

Amazing 60 j10.for free that really would something. Transform paf overnite. Without spending a penny


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## Kompromat

Last Samuri said:


> Amazing 60 j10.for free that really would something. Transform paf overnite. Without spending a penny



There is no free lunch!



Superboy said:


> PAF's first 60 F-6 fighters were delivered for free. If PAF needs the J-10, it WILL get delivered.  Money is never an issue.



Money is the issue. Nothing comes for free!

Yes PRC did deliver 60 F-6s for free.

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## sancho

Donatello said:


> J-10 offers 50% more payload on more hardpoints. So it is essentially a BVR 'Truck' and can be optimized for anti-ship roles as well.



Payload is a paper figure and doesn't tell you anything about the real load capability of a fighter, just like the basic number of hardpoints is useless unless you consider what weight limits or size restrictions they have. The fact is, JF 17 and J10 have the same number of heavy / wet stations, that means BOTH can carry the same number of fuel tanks, C802 anti ship missiles, Raad cruise missiles, 2000lb bombs...
And if BVR truck means, it can load a lot of SD10s, you are mistaken again, because if that would be the case it wouldn't need draggy twin launchers to carry 4 of them in CAP role, again the same load that a JF17 carries in CAP!
The only load advantage with useful loads J10 has is with LGBs, since it has a dedicated pod station, which wouldn't block the centerline station like it does at JF17, but that's it and that's why CFTs or increased internal fuel capacity would be important for a really comprehensive upgrade.

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## Introvert

I'm a bit confused. Are we getting J-10A's or J-10B's & when is the delivery expected.


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## zeeshanvita

Baazi said:


> I'm a bit confused. Are we getting J-10A's or J-10B's & when is the delivery expected.


Good Question...!!!!


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## Donatello

sancho said:


> Payload is a paper figure and doesn't tell you anything about the real load capability of a fighter, just like the basic number of hardpoints is useless unless you consider what weight limits or size restrictions they have. The fact is, JF 17 and J10 have the same number of heavy / wet stations, that means BOTH can carry the same number of fuel tanks, C802 anti ship missiles, Raad cruise missiles, 2000lb bombs...
> And if BVR truck means, it can load a lot of SD10s, you are mistaken again, because if that would be the case it wouldn't need draggy twin launchers to carry 4 of them in CAP role, again the same load that a JF17 carries in CAP!
> The only load advantage with useful loads J10 has is with LGBs, since it has a dedicated pod station, which wouldn't block the centerline station like it does at JF17, but that's it and that's why CFTs or increased internal fuel capacity would be important for a really comprehensive upgrade.




J-10 does not need multiple ejector racks to carry 4 SD-10s....JF-17 does, unless JF-17 lets go of two fuel tanks.

Plus J-10 offers the added advantage of an integrated IRST system, more tail fin volume (for ECM equipment), a bigger nose for a more powerful radar and more range.

The inherent delta wing design allows it to carry more payload than JF-17, Unless JF-17 gets 9 hardpoints, it is NOT sufficiently equipped for a BVR battle.

Let's take this, for a A-A role, JF-17 can use 3 fuel tanks for range, two BVRs and Two WVRs. Jettison fuel tanks before merging and you are set.

For Anti ship role, it can carry centerline fuel tank, two C-802 anti-ship missiles or C-400 carrier killers, two BVRs and Two WVRs. That doesn't leave any space for any external pods like FLIR or ECM pods.

A bigger aircraft gives you more room to play around with.



Aeronaut said:


> There is no free lunch!
> 
> 
> 
> Money is the issue. Nothing comes for free!
> 
> Yes PRC did deliver 60 F-6s for free.



They did deliver them for really really low cost but not free. Plus we paid the price in the form of lost pilot lives. F-6 from China was a crap plane, until PAF requested modifications to it and Chinese gladly accepted since at that point in time, they were still gearing up their aircraft industry and needed outside experience, which PAF gladly gave, provided PAF operated Western aircraft......the Mirage and later the F-16s.

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## Kompromat

Donatello said:


> They did deliver them for really really low cost but not free. Plus we paid the price in the form of lost pilot lives. F-6 from China was a crap plane, until PAF requested modifications to it and Chinese gladly accepted since at that point in time, they were still gearing up their aircraft industry and needed outside experience, which PAF gladly gave, provided PAF operated Western aircraft......the Mirage and later the F-16s.



Lets not forget that Chinese gave those jets to us when we were under sanctions.

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## Donatello

Aeronaut said:


> Lets not forget that Chinese gave those jets to us when we were under sanctions.



Nope, not forgetting that at all. I don't know where PAF or Pakistan's Armed forces as a whole would be if it was not for China's help. However, there is nothing free. It comes at a cost. F-6 was that one ill-fated program, the jet itself was nothing extra ordinary and we lost countless pilots in plane crashes. It was good PAF retired them as soon as F-7PGs were procured in large numbers.

Now F-7PG is something Pak-China can be proud of.........half a century old Soviet design giving F-16s a run for their money in WVR combat.......and JF-17 the icing on the cake.


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## sancho

Donatello said:


> J-10 does not need multiple ejector racks to carry 4 SD-10s...



Doesn't it?








> *Chinese J-10 Fighter Jet in Combat Air Patrol (CAP) Configuration*



Chinese J-10 Fighter Jet in Combat Air Patrol (CAP) Configuration | Chinese Military Review




Donatello said:


> The inherent delta wing design allows it to carry more payload than JF-17



As I already showed you, that's factually wrong! You could have simply counted the number of wingstations of both fighters to understand that. Even if the J10 wing would be twice as big, as long as it also has 3 x stations it will carry the same load as the JF 17.

http://s1.directupload.net/images/140130/2t56lo95.jpg

As you can see, for at least 90% of the roles, JF17 would carry the same weapon load as a J10B. The advantages of systems or aero dynamics were never disputed, (which isn't big compared to the expected Block 3 upgrade anyway), but can't justify the unit and operational cost increase for PAF.
Without freeing hardpoints from fuel tanks, the J10 won't have useful load advantages over JF17 as simple as it is!


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## Pinnacle

Baazi said:


> I'm a bit confused. Are we getting J-10A's or J-10B's & when is the delivery expected.


No J-10s anymore, so i think you must give up your hope about J-10s..


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## Munir

sancho said:


> Doesn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese J-10 Fighter Jet in Combat Air Patrol (CAP) Configuration | Chinese Military Review
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I already showed you, that's factually wrong! You could have simply counted the number of wingstations of both fighters to understand that. Even if the J10 wing would be twice as big, as long as it also has 3 x stations it will carry the same load as the JF 17.
> 
> http://s1.directupload.net/images/140130/2t56lo95.jpg
> 
> As you can see, for at least 90% of the roles, JF17 would carry the same weapon load as a J10B. The advantages of systems or aero dynamics were never disputed, (which isn't big compared to the expected Block 3 upgrade anyway), but can't justify the unit and operational cost increase for PAF.
> Without freeing hardpoints from fuel tanks, the J10 won't have useful load advantages over JF17 as simple as it is!



JF17 is small/light fighterjet. It does not need to go deep inside India nor fly far. Adding more then two BVR would be just adding drag and RCS. Surely you can do but is it needed? It is mostly netcentric warfare. two bvr to get advantage and two wvr to finish the combat. That is the whole idea behind planes like JF17, LCA or even F16. Surely you can show some pics with two BVR but then you do not have wvr... And sometimes they have 4 wvr...The moment you add 4 BVR on your LCA we can start a discussion.


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## Introvert

danish falcon said:


> No J-10s anymore, so i think you must give up your hope about J-10s..



Is it true? Can you provide any link for your claim?


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## That Guy

Baazi said:


> Is it true? Can you provide any link for your claim?


Not really any links I can personally give, but senior PAF officials are said to have mentioned that they're no longer interested in the J-10 and are happy with manufacturing and further developing the JF-17 (i.e no money). Not to mention that with the appearance of the J-31, which is said to be an export 5th gen fighter, PAF might be looking for a more capable fighter than the J-10.

So yeah, any way you look at it, the deal is pretty much dead.

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## fatman17

forget the J-10B for now. concentrate on consolidating the JFT program - 150 units blk-1-2-3 & work / collaborate with the chinese on the J-21 fighter in the next 7-10 years.

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## Armstrong

sancho said:


> Payload is a paper figure and doesn't tell you anything about the real load capability of a fighter, just like the basic number of hardpoints is useless unless you consider what weight limits or size restrictions they have. The fact is, JF 17 and J10 have the same number of heavy / wet stations, that means BOTH can carry the same number of fuel tanks, C802 anti ship missiles, Raad cruise missiles, 2000lb bombs...
> And if BVR truck means, it can load a lot of SD10s, you are mistaken again, because if that would be the case it wouldn't need draggy twin launchers to carry 4 of them in CAP role, again the same load that a JF17 carries in CAP!
> The only load advantage with useful loads J10 has is with LGBs, since it has a dedicated pod station, which wouldn't block the centerline station like it does at JF17, but that's it and that's why CFTs or increased internal fuel capacity would be important for a really comprehensive upgrade.



Bro tell me something, I've asked this around but I haven't really gotten a satisfactory answer as of yet : 

Is it possible for a Jf-17 or even a J-10B being made into a BVR Truck (if the load were to allow it) by using those pylons (I think) in which you attach 2-3 missiles at the same hard-point & to keep it flying in Friendly territory with 2-3 normally configured Jf-17s or F-7s or whatever nearby to defend it in case of enemy air-attack & that this BVR Truck networks with an AWAC to serve as, in a way, a long-range Air Defense System sitting on the edge of an engagement firing BVR Missiles at the Enemy if an opportunity presents itself or to dissuade them from coming into Pakistani Territory ?

Sort of like an Airplatform meets a Sniper Rifle type thing !

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## Luftwaffe

fatman17 said:


> forget the J-10B for now. concentrate on consolidating the JFT program - 150 units blk-1-2-3 & work / collaborate with the chinese on the J-21 fighter in the next 7-10 years.


 
Pointless to be stuck in the same generation J-10B/FC-1 are from the same generation atleast in next 3 years FC-1/JF-17 would be. Even if small numbers next generation is the way forward after FC-1/JF-17.


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## sancho

Munir said:


> JF17 is small/light fighterjet. It does not need to go deep inside India nor fly far. Adding more then two BVR would be just adding drag and RCS. Surely you can do but is it needed? It is mostly netcentric warfare. two bvr to get advantage and two wvr to finish the combat. That is the whole idea behind planes like JF17, LCA or even F16. Surely you can show some pics with two BVR but then you do not have wvr... And sometimes they have 4 wvr...The moment you add 4 BVR on your LCA we can start a discussion.



The size of the fighter, nor range have anything to do with the ammount of missiles being carried. In CAP missions, 4 x EM and 2 x IR missiles are common standard if the fighter can carry such loads next to fuel tanks. J10, JF 17 then would need to carry twin launchers, not ideal but definitely necessary. Please don't make it another vs thread and lets stick to J10 or PAF fighters!



Armstrong said:


> Is it possible for a Jf-17 or even a J-10B being made into a BVR Truck (if the load were to allow it) by using those pylons (I think) in which you attach 2-3 missiles at the same hard-point & to keep it flying in Friendly territory with 2-3 normally configured Jf-17s or F-7s or whatever nearby to defend it in case of enemy air-attack & that this BVR Truck networks with an AWAC to serve as, in a way, a long-range Air Defense System sitting on the edge of an engagement firing BVR Missiles at the Enemy if an opportunity presents itself or to dissuade them from coming into Pakistani Territory ?



If the weight and size limits of the hardpoints would allow such loads, it should be possible, the problem however is the increased drag that such multi pylons create. Not to mention that the AWACS only provides you long range detection, the missile range is less and the no-escape zone even lower, so using them at maximum range would be a waste and might not give a useful hit rate. So the fighter would need to close in and then the weight and drag will be a burden and not an advantage anymore.

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## Munir

sancho said:


> The size of the fighter, nor range have anything to do with the ammount of missiles being carried. In CAP missions, 4 x EM and 2 x IR missiles are common standard if the fighter can carry such loads next to fuel tanks. J10, JF 17 then would need to carry twin launchers, not ideal but definitely necessary. Please don't make it another vs thread and lets stick to J10 or PAF fighters!
> 
> 
> 
> If the weight and size limits of the hardpoints would allow such loads, it should be possible, the problem however is the increased drag that such multi pylons create. Not to mention that the AWACS only provides you long range detection, the missile range is less and the no-escape zone even lower, so using them at maximum range would be a waste and might not give a useful hit rate. So the fighter would need to close in and then the weight and drag will be a burden and not an advantage anymore.




Why no dual launchers on the f16? Which is bigger then JF17 btw...
Your numbers are related to medium weight fighterjets....


Sure you can come with Gripen but those are still drawings.


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## sancho

Munir said:


> Why no dual launchers on the f16?



Because unlike J10 or JF17, it has 4 x wingstations, which means even with fuel tanks, it can carry 6 x AAMs in A2A and a full set of 4 x AAM in any other role (CAS, SEAD...).


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> Because unlike J10 or JF17, it has 4 x wingstations, which means even with fuel tanks, it can carry 6 x AAMs in A2A and a full set of 4 x AAM in any other role (CAS, SEAD...).



The J-10 suffers from simply having less wing "span". there isnt any space to fit all of that into the jet. Another design flaw is that it cannot carry AAMs within its fuselage(semi recessed) like the EF or Rafale can. Not sure if that is a gear issue or clearance. 

The issue for the JF-17s 2BVR and 2WVR loadout has less to do with carriage issues and more with operational doctrine. The hint to that was clear in the last interview of the JF-17 dep. Project head.. The PAF figures that considering the distance between the operational bases and front line, the type of threat faced.. the probability is that for the JF-17 two BVR systems are enough to launch before it ends up in a merge(if it survives).. and once it survives the merge.. its time to come home and land.

Additinally, the PAF also never flew the full AAM loadout for the F-16s as well, always flying the 4 AAM on wingtip and outer stations and never with a full 6 AAM loadout. The idea was never to have complete air superiority but establish local safe zones from time to time and leave the rest clear.

In either case, the J-10 is most certainly a closed book for the PAF. The window for it came and went, and the funds were never there. Instead , all hands have been pumped into F-16s and JF-17s which will be cornerstone of the fast jet fleet till 2020 or beyond(depending on funds).

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## sancho

Oscar said:


> The J-10 suffers from simply having less wing "span". there isnt any space to fit all of that into the jet.



It's not necessarily the wing size, but the weight limit of the external wingstation, that doesn't seems to be able to carry BVR missiles and the fact that no wingtip station was added, like on the F16, Gripen or Rafale. For fuselage stations with bigger loads the fuselage simply offers too less space with the gearbay in between.

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## Munir

sancho said:


> Because unlike J10 or JF17, it has 4 x wingstations, which means even with fuel tanks, it can carry 6 x AAMs in A2A and a full set of 4 x AAM in any other role (CAS, SEAD...).



Show me a picture of F16 with 2 WVR and 4 BVR... There are plenty of training and war pictures of f16's... You are called an analyst... So show me your data buddy...


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## SQ8

Munir said:


> Show me a picture of F16 with 2 WVR and 4 BVR... There are plenty of training and war pictures of f16's... You are called an analyst... So show me your data buddy...



Do you wish for a wartime picture or training picture with this configuration?

In Either case, F-16s in Combat air Patrol configuration will rarely fly with more than 4 AAMs..ANYWHERE in the world. A fighter sweep mission requires that the aircraft search out and kill aircraft and the UAEAF F-16s flew such missions in red flag. Here is an example of their loadout.

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## Superboy




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## Last Samuri

That J10 looks really amazing and its a pity it wont see service in PAF we think.


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## Munir

Oscar said:


> Do you wish for a wartime picture or training picture with this configuration?
> 
> In Either case, F-16s in Combat air Patrol configuration will rarely fly with more than 4 AAMs..ANYWHERE in the world. A fighter sweep mission requires that the aircraft search out and kill aircraft and the UAEAF F-16s flew such missions in red flag. Here is an example of their loadout.
> View attachment 15110



Okay, you win Oscar. The arabs have no clue... If you watch dogfights of all the arabs then you will see that they either start shooting everything they have, crash into ground or turn their belly into the radar of the opponent. If the UAE could put ten BVR on this f16 then they would do...

I met once a Mirage pilot of UAE... He could do a superb job with acting in Top Gun...I do not mean in a positive way. I even got a few movies of this guy sitting in JF17 sim. 

I think the UA thinks about the strategy of shooting as much as possible BVR to stop larger number of opponents. And probably never risking a WVR. Practically you use 1 or maybe 2 BVR to get into decent position to finish the opponent while your wingman does the same. Getting into WVR with still two BVR on your wings is not handy. In wartime it needs to be seen whether it will be done.

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## SQ8

Munir said:


> The arabs have no clue... If you watch dogfights of all the arabs then you will see that they either start shooting everything they have, crash into ground or turn their belly into the radar of the opponent. If the UAE could put ten BVR on this f16 then they would do...



That seems a very non-_analytical_ argument to me for someone who was challenging another for proving analytical skills. You neither have proof to back up the fighting ability of the current UAEAF pilots nor have you focused on any pros and cons of the loadout. I know not how the fighting ability of Arabs in their wars with the Israelis(_especially considering their well publicized lack of initiative and training_) or the poor review of the Saudis for their air force operations till recent have to do with the A2A loadout used by the UAEAF in this picture. Also, on the subject of fighting ability.. there is on hand a testament by USAF pilots who participated in ATLC 2009 of the Mirage-2000-9 of the UAEAF as an excellent dogfighting aircraft and opponent. I am aghast to believe that all those who flew that fighter were foreigners or mercenaries. Additionally, the UAEAF F-16 pilots have been training constantly with the Americans and even with the most torrid of attitudes would have learnt something. A link to the video on this exercise is available, and even though it is as much a PR exercise than documentary.. it does show serious intent and training ability by UAEAF arab pilots.

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## sancho

Munir said:


> Show me a picture of F16 with 2 WVR and 4 BVR... There are plenty of training and war pictures of f16's... You are called an analyst... So show me your data buddy...



I don't call myself that, so I don't think I have to prove it, but it's not that difficult to find pics of such configs:










The one Oscar posted btw, is one of the UAE F16s that were sent to the Lybian conflict and obviously shows CAP configs.
Their M2K-9s, just as the Qatari M2K-5s carried 4 x MICA EMs and 2 x IR missiles in similar roles, French M2K-5s carried 3 x MICA EM and 3 x MICA IR, Rafale, 4 x MICA EM and 2 x MICA IR, the British EF carried even 4 x Amraam and 4 x Asraam in the A2A roles. So when the fighter has the capability to carry 4 x BVR missiles and the operater has the requirement, they will do it and as showed earlier, PLAAF has this requirement for the J10 and therefor needs twin launchers.

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## Munir

Well, I lost this one

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## cleverrider

Munir said:


> Well, I lost this one


Good on you for admitting(BTW you had no choice)


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## Munir

Well, I do not mind. No human is perfect and I am certainly not. All the time serious you versus me is getting boring so admitting begin wrong is nothing stupid. It is a lot more stupid still holding your position while the whole foundation of your evidence is evaporated with a picture...

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## SQ8

Munir said:


> Well, I lost this one



You learnt something new. What is prudent is not to get lost in trying to prove that certain capabilities are important or not on the aircraft.. but rather if the operator wants them or not. The PAF in on record with interviews that it does not want the 4 BVRAAM loadout even though it can. The same way, the Chinese will be performing Fighter sweep missions that will require more missiles.

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## Munir

Yf16...

2014_YF16_F_Later_08_1267828237_8978.jpg

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## Superboy

Technologically, JF-17 is on par with J-10, even having DSI well before J-10 has it. PAF does not need J-10 for its fleet of medium sized fighters, but it would need J-31 once it is ready for production.


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## Khan_patriot

Neo said:


> This is a fresh release Mastan, PFF special.
> 
> Thanks to Munir!
> 
> http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=8869512750983413810
> 
> :ChinaFlag: :flag:


nice mate


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## Superboy

Luftwaffe said:


> Can we get over with this subject of backbiting, thankyou.
> 
> Funny even an engineer has to go to car dealer to buy a vehicle or did you build you own space odyssey. So stop trying to insulting people being cardealer [u mentioned it several times since yesterday that puts you on the same page] or pizza delivery man all are respectable jobs...PS I do trust North American car dealers they tell you things about vehicles that normally a pakistani engineer in pakistan won't even tell you let alone a pakistani car sales man/dealer in pakistan.
> 
> Do let us know technical details of what came from J-10 program into JF-17 apart from KLJ-7 variant of KLJ-10. If the point was to get tech transfer from J-10 into JF-17 that PAF should have settled for J-10 in the first place even with limited numbers [if russians can sell you RD-93 they could have given permission for AL-31], it is highly unlikely J-10 would get anything from JF-17...J-10 program had that DSI upgrade on the board the studied F-16 testbed program.




J-10 is too expensive to serve as the backbone of PAF. It is a medium sized plane like F-16. JF-17 costs about half as much to service compared to J-10. PAF uses medium sized fighters like F-16 and light fighters like JF-17 in a hi lo mix. PAF cannot afford heavy fighters like Su-30. Too expensive to service. JF-17 Block 1's EW is more advanced than that of J-10A, having MAWS that J-10A lacks, plus has a more advanced tail EW.


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## Luftwaffe

Superboy said:


> J-10 is too expensive to serve as the backbone of PAF. It is a medium sized plane like F-16. JF-17 costs about half as much to service compared to J-10. PAF cannot afford heavy fighters like Su-30. Too expensive to service. JF-17 Block 1's EW is more advanced than that of J-10A, having MAWS that J-10A lacks, plus has a more advanced tail EW.


 
Even JF-17 program is expensive for PAF do you know that? Did you read i said limited numbers...the point capabilities...Who told you J-10A's EW is less capable than JF-17 they are and have gone under upgrades/modernization program. Please do provide us detailed info on current J-10[A] over all technologies compared to JF-17. If the whole point is expensive expensive expensive than probably in next 15 years PAF would still be wandering for a cheap one and you know what there won't be any cheap one this JF-17 is heading towards 30m sooner or later with each block.


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## SQ8

@MastanKhan @Munir 

Gentlemen.. ENOUGH!

Who came from where is irrelevant. Our much Beloved Alan Warnes of Air Forces Monthly whose words we take as holy on PAF knowledge.. is an accountant by education and initial profession. 

I started out in telecommunications, spent two years on embedded systems which involved only programming.. and now am a Business consultant focusing on strategy development and change management. 

That being said, Emprical evidence is usually best for ALL claims. Be it for or against a piece of equipment. Personal opinions, be it of blind faith and praise or relentless critique usually wears out its appeal and any respect for the members opinion.

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## Superboy

Luftwaffe said:


> Even JF-17 program is expensive for PAF do you know that? Did you read i said limited numbers...the point capabilities...Who told you J-10A's EW is less capable than JF-17 they are and have gone under upgrades/modernization program. Please do provide us detailed info on current J-10[A] over all technologies compared to JF-17. If the whole point is expensive expensive expensive than probably in next 15 years PAF would still be wandering for a cheap one and you know what there won't be any cheap one this JF-17 is heading towards 30m sooner or later with each block.




JF-17 is slated as the replacement of F-7, which currently number 186 in PAF, as well as Mirage III / 5, A-5 (already replaced by the first two squadrons of JF-17). Gee, I though F-22 was supposed to replace F-15. See how that turned out?  It wasn't the US air force couldn't afford F-22, it's politics that killed it. JF-17 is a light fighter like F-7 and Mirage III. PAF is surely able to afford it. After all, spending big money on your own country and infrastructure keeps the money in your own country. 

J-10A's EW is surely inferior to that of JF-17 Block 1. Just look at it the tail EW. J-10A's one is a lot cruder.


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## Luftwaffe

Superboy said:


> J-10A's EW is surely inferior to that of JF-17 Block 1. Just look at it the tail EW. J-10A's one is a lot cruder.


 
Proof? Prove it give us comparative information.


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## Superboy

Luftwaffe said:


> Proof? Prove it give us comparative information.




You can clearly see J-10A's tail EW is not as advanced as that of Block 1 JFT. This is not even taking into consideration the fact that J-10A lacks MAWS which Block 1 JFT has.  Overall, Block 1 JFT is a considerably newer and more advanced design than J-10A.

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## SQ8

Luftwaffe said:


> Proof? Prove it give us comparative information.


Apparently some sort of visual judgement was to give it a crude title.



Superboy said:


> You can clearly see J-10A's tail EW is not as advanced as that of Block 1 JFT. This is not even taking into consideration the fact that J-10A lacks MAWS which Block 1 JFT has.  Overall, Block 1 JFT is a considerably newer and more advanced design than J-10A.



Perhaps more advanced than the early inducted J-10A.. but are they not getting any upgrades? is the J-10B not fitted with better equipment?

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## Superboy

Oscar said:


> Apparently some sort of visual judgement was to give it a crude title.




I'm not obsessed to go into every little detail. Moral of the story is: Take it easy and enjoy the show! 



Oscar said:


> Perhaps more advanced than the early inducted J-10A.. but are they not getting any upgrades? is the J-10B not fitted with better equipment?




J-10B is a major upgrade over J-10A with new air intake and nose and tail, new cockpit, much better EW, AESA, IRST, MAWS, more composites etc. The same can be said about Block 2 JFT, which shares technology with J-10B and having went into production only a few months after J-10B did.

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## SQ8

Superboy said:


> I'm not obsessed to go into every little detail. Moral of the story is: Take it easy and enjoy the show!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-10B is a major upgrade over J-10A with new air intake and nose and tail, new cockpit, much better EW, AESA, IRST, more composites etc. The same can be said about Block 2 JFT, which shares technology with J-10B and having went into production only a few months after J-10B did.



Which show is this? I just see one little call made saying that EW system of JF-17 more advanced. How? J-10 looks cruder.. How? It does not have MAWS.. What about the newer J-10s? Well, they are new J-10s but when I said J-10 I meant older J-10.. 
wow..super.. such technical, so information, much expert..... NOT.

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## Superboy

Oscar said:


> Which show is this? I just see one little call made saying that EW system of JF-17 more advanced. How? J-10 looks cruder.. How? It does not have MAWS.. What about the newer J-10s? Well, they are new J-10s but when I said J-10 I meant older J-10..
> wow..super.. such technical, so information, much expert..... NOT.




Block 1 JF-17 is 8 years younger than J-10A. J-10B is 10 years younger than J-10A. J-10A is pretty much obsolete and gets replaced by J-10B.


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## SQ8

Superboy said:


> Block 1 JF-17 is 8 years younger than J-10A. J-10B is at least 10 years younger than J-10A. J-10A is pretty much obsolete and gets replaced by J-10B.


Will they replaced airframe for airframe? Is the service life of the J-10A < 10-15 years??


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## Superboy

Oscar said:


> Will they replaced airframe for airframe? Is the service life of the J-10A < 10-15 years??




The J-10A are a few years old but they don't have DSI and look sucky. That's why the Chinese government spends a lot of money on its workers to build J-10B to replace those J-10A. The money mostly stays in China. Only the engines are initially imported from Russia but later gets replaced by Chinese made WS-10A engines. Chinese workers never really get a break in the Chinese aircraft industry. Always busy busy busy.


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## Luftwaffe

Superboy said:


> Block 1 JF-17 is 8 years younger than J-10A. J-10B is at least 10 years younger than J-10A. J-10A is pretty much obsolete and gets replaced by J-10B.


 
How is J-10A obsolete, do you have confirmation that Chinese Air Force will not upgrade J-10/As at all...strange assessment. Not sure that a 12 year old aircraft is obsolete or not worth upgrades when 30 years old F-16s can be MLUd.

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## Superboy

Luftwaffe said:


> How is J-10A obsolete, do you have confirmation that Chinese Air Force will not upgrade J-10/As at all...strange assessment.




There is too much structural difference between J-10A and J-10B. You can't retrofit DSI onto J-10A. All the J-10A would have to go to the recycle plant.


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## Beast

I think too many people look at range, payload and other technical aspect of J-10 compare to JF-17 but complete miss the most important aspect of PLAAF choosing J-10 compare to JF-17.

Manoeuvrability.

J-10 is nearly scrapped by PLAAF as they do not see any advantage of J-10 compare to the J-11A(Su-27) until a real live combat exercise was organised of fights between J-10A vs J-11A. The J-11A(Su-27) was completely mauled in WVR with J-10A. PLAAF top brass agreed fully support of J-10 program. J-10A is a class above even the legendary F-16 in terms of agility. Which is the massive reason why JF-17 never gets inducted by PLAAF.

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## Luftwaffe

Superboy said:


> There are too much structural differences between J-10A and J-10B. You can't retrofit DSI onto J-10A. All the J-10A would have to go into the recycle plant.


 
So if A variant has no DSI it is obsolete? How is F-16 produced in 81 upgraded in 2011 just to give you clue. Have you seen structural modifications to F-15s, F-16s..i think Chinese are not that backward are they?


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## Superboy

Luftwaffe said:


> So if A variant has no DSI it is obsolete? How is F-16 produced in 81 upgraded in 2011 just to give you clue. Have you seen structural modifications to F-15s, F-16s..i think Chinese are not that backward are they?




Chinese pilots fly the best. If they get new planes, they throw out old planes.  J-10B is more advanced than Rafale.


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## MastanKhan

Superboy said:


> Block 1 JF-17 is 8 years younger than J-10A. J-10B is 10 years younger than J-10A. J-10A is pretty much obsolete and gets replaced by J-10B.



Hi,

I guess you are right---being 8 years younger---so by default it would have a comparatively advanced electronic warfare system---. That is how any industry works.


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## Luftwaffe

Superboy said:


> Chinese pilots fly the best. If they get new planes, they throw out old planes.  J-10B is more advanced than Rafale.


 
Testbed/prototype of B variant was initially J-10A. Spare us myfriend Rafale is still ahead...Just because it looks dashing and has alleged AESA doesn't make J-10B one step ahead of Rafale.

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## gooner

Beast said:


> I think too many people look at range, payload and other technical aspect of J-10 compare to JF-17 but complete miss the most important aspect of PLAAF choosing J-10 compare to JF-17.
> 
> Manoeuvrability.
> 
> J-10 is nearly scrapped by PLAAF as they do not see any advantage of J-10 compare to the J-11A(Su-27) until a real live combat exercise was organised of fights between J-10A vs J-11A. The J-11A(Su-27) was completely mauled in WVR with J-10A. PLAAF top brass agreed fully support of J-10 program.
> J-10A is a class above even the legendary F-16 in terms of agility. Which is the massive reason why JF-17 never gets inducted by PLAAF.[/quote/]


The Chinese are not going to trash their own design so you take that with a pinch of salt.More baseless claims-Where are the specs on the J10a?


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## SQ8

Beast said:


> J-10 is nearly scrapped by PLAAF as they do not see any advantage of J-10 compare to the J-11A(Su-27) until a real live combat exercise was organised of fights between J-10A vs J-11A. The J-11A(Su-27) was completely mauled in WVR with J-10A. PLAAF top brass agreed fully support of J-10 program. J-10A is a class above even the legendary F-16 in terms of agility. *Which is the massive reason why JF-17 never gets inducted by PLAAF*.



Or perhaps they have more intelligent reasons such as air doctrine??
The J-10 is a very manoeuvrable fighter.. but it was always meant to be the low end of the CHinese AF high-low mix. There is simply NO NEED for the JF-17 in China's combat mix.

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## Superboy

J-10 has excellent range, covering all of India from Tibet. This is why PLAAF uses J-10 rather than FC-1.



Luftwaffe said:


> Testbed/prototype of B variant was initially J-10A. Spare us myfriend Rafale is still ahead...Just because it looks dashing and has alleged AESA doesn't make J-10B one step ahead of Rafale.


 

What does Rafale offer over J-10B?


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## gooner

Superboy said:


> J-10 has excellent range, covering all of India from Tibet. This is why PLAAF uses J-10 rather than FC-1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does Rafale offer over J-10B?


We know nothing about the J10B


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## Superboy

gooner said:


> We know nothing about the J10B




How so? J-10B is sort of like an upgraded F-16E.


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## gooner

Superboy said:


> How so? J-10B is sort of like an upgraded F-16E.


What do you mean by"sort of"?Comparisons are being made with the Rafale yet people know next to nothing about the J-10B so words like"sort of" are used instead


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## Superboy

gooner said:


> What do you mean by"sort of"?Comparisons are being made with the Rafale yet people know next to nothing about the J-10B so words like"sort of" are used instead




Just LOOK at J-10B. You can see it is HIGHLY advanced.


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## 帅的一匹

Superboy said:


> There is too much structural difference between J-10A and J-10B. You can't retrofit DSI onto J-10A. All the J-10A would have to go to the recycle plant.


Dude,J10A is a very efficient platform, you seems to bend over backward. PLA will keep updating J10 A in the future , Even old platform like F16 keeps involving at its best. J10b absorbs lots of 5 gen tech from J20 development, much more advanced than J10A interms of fuselage and EW.

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## 帅的一匹

Superboy said:


> What does Rafale offer over J-10B?


Rafale has more hard points.

In my opinion, J10 b is slightly inferior than Rafale in payload and range.



Superboy said:


> Just LOOK at J-10B. You can see it is HIGHLY advanced.


J10b is one of the the top Five medium fighters in the world, without any doubt.


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## 帅的一匹

We Chinese shall be fully confident with our own fighters, while we shall always be humble as our ancestor teaches us. J10 series fighters will continue evolving before it is totally obsolete. The problem is non of the air force in this planet is wealthy enough to replace their whole 4gen fighters fleet with 5 gen fighters in one go.

J10 A is a tailor product designed for PLAAF, while JF17 is a customized design for PAF. The two projects are highly correlated.

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## cw2005

I think we have not detail specs of neither J10B nor French/EU fighters. Comparing something we do not know is meaningless. But we could make a good guess when compare with J10A and J10B and my bet is J10B is better in general performance of J10A. Although where an how much better is still a guess. My reasons:

1. It took years and huge amount of money to develope J10B from J10A and I do not believe any Government would waste that time and money for a product that is not better than the existing one.

2. The T/W ratio is improved according to most forum members because a) improved engines, b) reduced weight due to composite material and DSI design. Both are logical. The Russian knows if they could not provide a better engine, Chinese will not buy from them. People believe the power of the engines slightly increases.

3. A better rada and avionics. Again it is logical. No matter it is AESA OR PESA, it must be better than the old ones.


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## Akasa

J-10B confirmed upgrades, which are a pretty good match for the likes of the Rafale:
- AESA radar with 1152 channels
- Possible change to WS-10B 132 kN engine in future batches
- one ton reduction in weight due to composites
- new cockpit
- solid state electronics
- application of RAM extensively to body and canopy
- ECM upgrades
- IRST
- DSI
- some level of sensor unification

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## cirr

J-10B painted grey 27.02.2014：

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## nomi007




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## MastanKhan

wanglaokan said:


> military is just a attachement to politics. Try to think if Pakistan buying F-35 incase of having war with India, Idian will know every single secret and reference of the plane, then it sure will be shot down by MKI nomatter how advaced it is. And it's very tough to replenish components and parts during wars, especially doing business with trick uncle Sam. What pakitan need is stable supply , not the most advanced plane in the word. As to my point of view, F-35 is a expensive toy for Pakistan in practial regional conflict.




Hi,

That was a very poor analysis----a total lack of understamding the psyche of american defence industry---. It would be opver the dead body of the american defence indutry that the indians will get any secrets---.

There is no way an american defence contractor would see an american air dominance fighter or strike aircraft taken out by a russian aircraft---.

Pigs have a better chance of flying than the secrets of F35 being divulged to india---.

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

image of the day

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## nomi007

arrest landing gear

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## Hammad-ROX

abdulbarijan said:


> BBC NEWS | South Asia | India nuclear test 'did not work'
> 
> 
> 
> I rest my case on this point
> 
> *
> *
> 
> There is a difference between front line aircrafts and the likes of jaguars or Mig-21's which serve as strike fighters and interceptors ---- IAF's front line aircrafts are the M2k's, Mig-29's and SU-30 MKI's
> 
> on the other hand PAF has 50 odd JF-17's 45 F-16 A/B's and 18 F-16 Block 50/52's serving as front line aircrafts -- F-7 P/PG basically serve as interceptors while Mirages basically are dedicated towards strike role.
> 
> That makes IAF 270 odd front liners versus PAF's 110 odd front line aircrafts a ratio of 1 : 2.45 amongst the lowest in history when it comes to numerical figures ----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL! so India's size is bigger that means more area to protect --- Dont tell me IAF is going to field all the strength near PAF's borders while leaving China alone --- as for nukes ---
> 
> This is what your scientists say about your delivery systems
> 
> India's nuclear arsenal failed by 'unreliable' missiles : India, News - India Today
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> P.S YOU SHOULD LEAVE THESE TOPICS AS THEY ARE NOT RELATED TO THE THREAD ___ OTHERWISE YOU MAY GET BOTH OUR ***** BANNED!*


Hi Ahmed


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## nomi007

FINALLY REVELED* ISRAELI* INVOLVEMENT IN* J-10*
*



*





*Build Your Own Conspiracy Theory Of The Day: Chinese delegation right in front of a Lavi-prototype, mid 1980s. *


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## Luftwaffe

nomi007 said:


> FINALLY REVELED* ISRAELI* INVOLVEMENT IN* J-10*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> *Build Your Own Conspiracy Theory Of The Day: Chinese delegation right in front of a Lavi-prototype, mid 1980s. *



So a delegation proves China got hands on LAVI project? I doubt so personally but lets make another conspiracy soup if LAVI project was bought by China why was J-10A not on par with F-16, as much as we know LAVI was a competitor to F-16A. In its form LAVI could have replaced many F-7s instead it became a medium class J-10A from light class and deployed towards 1998-2000 on wards. What could have been the technical difficulties? with complete TOT things gets much organized. Let add another conspiracy is it israel that is not allowing China to sell J-10B to Pakistan.


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## graphican

Beast said:


> I think too many people look at range, payload and other technical aspect of J-10 compare to JF-17 but complete miss the most important aspect of PLAAF choosing J-10 compare to JF-17.
> 
> Manoeuvrability.
> 
> J-10 is nearly scrapped by PLAAF as they do not see any advantage of J-10 compare to the J-11A(Su-27) until a real live combat exercise was organised of fights between J-10A vs J-11A. The J-11A(Su-27) was completely mauled in WVR with J-10A. PLAAF top brass agreed fully support of J-10 program. J-10A is a class above even the legendary F-16 in terms of agility. Which is the massive reason why JF-17 never gets inducted by PLAAF.



Hi Beast and respected PDF Members, 

Pakistan will be facing same challenges which China would face from India. China gained its confidence on J-10s from the exercise you mentioned above. Are you aware of any exercise where PAF tested JF-17s against SU-27 or SU-30s and which is giving PAF its confidence? From the news we hear, PAF may not procure J-10s... so what giving PAF its confidence and making it drop an entire platform in the favor of JF-17 blocks?


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## The SC

Most probably because Pakistan got involved in the J-31, and the need of the future will be for this platform that will integrate well with the J-20.
J-10B is a potent 4++fighter, no doubt about it, China plans up to a thousand for its Air Forces, but a fifth generation fighter is the call of the hour and Pakistan not to be left behind is planing ahead.
Also 2 squadrons of J-10B for pakistan is a possibility, although PAF might go for 2 squadrons of used f-16s from somewhere and MLUs them.

J-31




















J-20















J-10B

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## Luftwaffe

The SC said:


> Most probably because Pakistan got involved in the J-31, and the need of the future will be for this platform that will integrate well with the J-20.
> J-10B is a potent 4++fighter, no doubt about it, China plans up to a thousand for its Air Forces, but a fifth generation fighter is the call of the hour and Pakistan not to be left behind is planing ahead.
> Also 2 squadrons of J-10B for pakistan is a possibility, although PAF might go for 2 squadrons of used f-16s from somewhere and MLUs them.
> 
> J-31, J-20, J-10B



Doubtful if China would go/deploy 1000s J-31/project 310. Countries like China and Russia are capable to show posture and strike back US and Europe although Air Dominance has its value over all it won't win you the World War when it comes to powers like China and Russia the only retaliation in the end would be MAD. So the mix of Fleet from Flankers/J-11/J-15/J-16, J-10A/B?, J-20s and J-31s have their sets of Capabilities. 2400 F-35s is just making more money for Generals and Investors any strikes by F-35s inside Russia [if not China] would only end up by a gift of Nuke either War shall cease or MAD would take place. 

Pakistan is not involved in Project 310 on any level.


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## Beast

graphican said:


> Hi Beast and respected PDF Members,
> 
> Pakistan will be facing same challenges which China would face from India. China gained its confidence on J-10s from the exercise you mentioned above. Are you aware of any exercise where PAF tested JF-17s against SU-27 or SU-30s and which is giving PAF its confidence? From the news we hear, PAF may not procure J-10s... so what giving PAF its confidence and making it drop an entire platform in the favor of JF-17 blocks?


Maintenance nightmare of 2 different platform. PAF do not have the budget of China. And don't forget. China is the creator of both JF-17 and J-10. China know what is the best of both planes.


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## The SC

Luftwaffe said:


> Doubtful if China would go/deploy 1000s J-31/project 310. Countries like China and Russia are capable to show posture and strike back US and Europe although Air Dominance has its value over all it won't win you the World War when it comes to powers like China and Russia the only retaliation in the end would be MAD. So the mix of Fleet from Flankers/J-11/J-15/J-16, J-10A/B?, J-20s and J-31s have their sets of Capabilities. 2400 F-35s is just making more money for Generals and Investors any strikes by F-35s inside Russia [if not China] would only end up by a gift of Nuke either War shall cease or MAD would take place.
> 
> Pakistan is not involved in Project 310 on any level.



Talking about up to athousand J-10B, read the post carefully.
According to some sources Pakistanis are involved in Project 310 on some level.(not sure)


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## 帅的一匹

graphican said:


> Hi Beast and respected PDF Members,
> 
> Pakistan will be facing same challenges which China would face from India. China gained its confidence on J-10s from the exercise you mentioned above. Are you aware of any exercise where PAF tested JF-17s against SU-27 or SU-30s and which is giving PAF its confidence? From the news we hear, PAF may not procure J-10s... so what giving PAF its confidence and making it drop an entire platform in the favor of JF-17 blocks?


I think JF17'd proved itself good enough in those excercise when faced SU30, so no need to consider j10A anymore. I think PAF will go for J31 in the future, i will do the same if i were PAF leader to save tight money.


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## pluto

wanglaokan said:


> I think JF17'd proved itself good enough in those excercise when faced SU30, so no need to consider j10A anymore. I think PAF will go for J31 in the future, i will do the same if i were PAF leader to save tight money.


why r u saying PAF doesn't have enough money? every country has money for weapons including china & pakistan

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## TheNoob

pluto said:


> why r u saying PAF doesn't have enough money? every country has money for weapons including china & pakistan



he meant that its too expensive to get them with our current state.

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## zeeshanvita

can some one please translate this..


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## terranMarine

translate 40 minutes video for you?


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## MastanKhan

terranMarine said:


> translate 40 minutes video for you?



Just the highlights.


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## zeeshanvita

zeeshanvita said:


> can some one please translate this..


From Min 4:00 onwards...I will really appreciate it..or at least summarize it for understanding..


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## The A-5

Rare image of Chinese delegation in front of an IAI Lavi prototype, mid-1980s.

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## Luftwaffe

The A-5 said:


> Rare image of Chinese delegation in front of an IAI Lavi prototype, mid-1980s.



And you point is?


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## The A-5

Luftwaffe said:


> And you point is?



I didn't mention any point - seemed like the most appropriate place to post it first.


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## cnleio

Beautiful bird

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## cnleio

10B ≥ 5x










J-10A full load

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## IrbiS

If all of you are discussing J-10 here because Pakistan is gonna buy it,then close this thread because we aren't.You have my word on that and proof too if you want to


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## halupridol

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> If all of you are discussing J-10 here because Pakistan is gonna buy it,then close this thread because we aren't.You have my word on that and proof too if you want to


ofcourse,,,contribute,,,,we want proof


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## Basel

PAF need something like J-11B or better with AESA and advance EW systems to take care of IN & IAF ambitions combined.


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## IrbiS

halupridol said:


> ofcourse,,,contribute,,,,we want proof




For February issue 2014 AIRFORCES MONTHLY's Georg Mader interviewed Deputy Chief Project Director JF-17 for PAF HQ and PAC KAMRA Air Commodore Mahmood Khalid at Dubai Air Show.

I'm just quoting our question of interest here:
"

AFM: Is there a possibility of an FC-20 export version of the J-10 to Pakistan? Do you imagine that this could happen, maybe at the cost of Thunder programme?

Air Cdre Khalid: My personal thoughts? Wishful thinking. But while this would be decided at a higher level than mine, from what I know or can see, an FC-20 or whatever will not be introduced into the PAF, at least not in the near or mid-term future. Why? The PAF is amidst the build-up of JF-17 squadrons - just last March, President Zardari honoured and awarded more than 30 air
commodores, wing commanders, group captains and squadron leaders for the successful launch of the Thunder into the PAF
fleet.
No other 'plane gives us this much capability at this cost. It's already carried out well over 10,000 sorties, and with towards 50 delivered, a third squadron is forming. In-flight refuelling from an IL-78 has been done. In parallel, the introduction of the Block 52 F-16s is happening, with systems like Goodrich recce pod(meaning Goodrich DB-110) to master. So this means we are well served by fast jet assets and there in no real need to add a third platform, especially when the J-10 is also a fourth-plus generation jet we already have, and our planners and analysts should be focusing on the future fifth generation!
But, as said, all this is beyond my daily business and responsibility.

"

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## SBD-3

Basel said:


> PAF need something like J-11B or better with AESA and advance EW systems to take care of IN & IAF ambitions combined.


J-10's natural arena is high altitude....Its design is made for high altitude-high speed combat. It can easily overwhelm anybody given playing in its field. F-4s being technologically superior were advised not to tangle the the delta wing mig-21s at high altitude despite having ample twin thrust vis a vis mig-21's single engine. to defeat Mig-21s, F-4 crews first took the dogfight at lower altitudes where mig's wing design made it inefficient. J-10's design is a better performing design at high altitude engagements (More frequent phenomenon in BVR era). AESA and EW have their benefits but often a trade off is required in balancing performance.

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## Basel

SBD-3 said:


> J-10's natural arena is high altitude....Its design is made for high altitude-high speed combat. It can easily overwhelm anybody given playing in its field. F-4s being technologically superior were advised not to tangle the the delta wing mig-21s at high altitude despite having ample twin thrust vis a vis mig-21's single engine. to defeat Mig-21s, F-4 crews first took the dogfight at lower altitudes where mig's wing design made it inefficient. J-10's design is a better performing design at high altitude engagements (More frequent phenomenon in BVR era). AESA and EW have their benefits but often a trade off is required in balancing performance.



Dear I know that but it does not fit in current needs / requirements of PAF. PAF need a long range plane now (in class of J-11B) if they want to induct a 4.5+ gen plane because IN is getting very powerful, they will also have robust support from IAF and IN will not come close to our shore for blockade this time as they know how long we can hit them so they will keep enough distance where they have advantage, PN have P-3 to go after IN but they will need support and J-1Xs can do more than just support as they can carry YJ-12 supersonic missiles which have ASM, ARM versions available with range upto 400 kms with those they can easily carry BVR & WVR missiles for escorting MPAs or any other package if needed with out need of extra fuel tank.

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## Bratva

SBD-3 said:


> J-10's natural arena is high altitude....Its design is made for high altitude-high speed combat. It can easily overwhelm anybody given playing in its field. F-4s being technologically superior were advised not to tangle the the delta wing mig-21s at high altitude despite having ample twin thrust vis a vis mig-21's single engine. to defeat Mig-21s, F-4 crews first took the dogfight at lower altitudes where mig's wing design made it inefficient. J-10's design is a better performing design at high altitude engagements (More frequent phenomenon in BVR era). AESA and EW have their benefits but often a trade off is required in balancing performance.



you need to leave politics for a while and contribute more in defence sections. You are better off with those petty political arguments

Eurofighter being delta like Mig-21 is covering it's shortcoming in WVR combat at lower altitudes by introducing LERX and thrust vectoring

Eurofighter: new aerodynamics set for 2014 test flight - 6/25/2014 - Flight Global

Eurofighter will by year-end make is final proof-of-concept test flight on an aerodynamic modification kit that promises to improve the combat aircraft’s subsonic turn rate by 15%.

Adding leading edge root extensions and extended trailing edge flaps, and reshaping the side-of-cockpit ILS antennae covers as 70° delta strakes should improve the aircraft’s agility for close-quarters combat.

Laurie Hilditch, head of future capabilities at Eurofighter, says the modification kit should give the aircraft the sort of “knife-fight in a phone box” turning capability enjoyed by rivals such as Boeing’s F/A-18E/F or the Lockheed Martin F-16, without sacrificing the transonic and supersonic high-energy agility inherent to its delta wing-canard configuration.



Hopefully if J-10 is modified with such surface controls, J-10 could become a formidable in lower altitude dogfights as well


----------



## MastanKhan

Bratva said:


> you need to leave politics for a while and contribute more in defence sections. You are better off with those petty political arguments
> 
> Eurofighter being delta like Mig-21 is covering it's shortcoming in WVR combat at lower altitudes by introducing LERX and thrust vectoring
> 
> Eurofighter: new aerodynamics set for 2014 test flight - 6/25/2014 - Flight Global
> 
> Eurofighter will by year-end make is final proof-of-concept test flight on an aerodynamic modification kit that promises to improve the combat aircraft’s subsonic turn rate by 15%.
> 
> Adding leading edge root extensions and extended trailing edge flaps, and reshaping the side-of-cockpit ILS antennae covers as 70° delta strakes should improve the aircraft’s agility for close-quarters combat.
> 
> Laurie Hilditch, head of future capabilities at Eurofighter, says the modification kit should give the aircraft the sort of “knife-fight in a phone box” turning capability enjoyed by rivals such as Boeing’s F/A-18E/F or the Lockheed Martin F-16, without sacrificing the transonic and supersonic high-energy agility inherent to its delta wing-canard configuration.
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully if J-10 is modified with such surface controls, J-10 could become a formidable in lower altitude dogfights as well



Sir,

The poster is correct in what he stated---. He gave examples of two planes and he is right----.


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## Bratva

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> *The poster is correct in what he stated---. He gave examples of two planes and he is right*----.



Those were examples of yester year. In coming era, Delta shortcomings would be compensated with other control surfaces like what EF team is doing with it.

Let's see how behaviour of delta changes when LERX and extended flaps plus TVR comes in to play.


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## Donatello

Bratva said:


> you need to leave politics for a while and contribute more in defence sections. You are better off with those petty political arguments
> 
> Eurofighter being delta like Mig-21 is covering it's shortcoming in WVR combat at lower altitudes by introducing LERX and thrust vectoring
> 
> Eurofighter: new aerodynamics set for 2014 test flight - 6/25/2014 - Flight Global
> 
> Eurofighter will by year-end make is final proof-of-concept test flight on an aerodynamic modification kit that promises to improve the combat aircraft’s subsonic turn rate by 15%.
> 
> Adding leading edge root extensions and extended trailing edge flaps, and reshaping the side-of-cockpit ILS antennae covers as 70° delta strakes should improve the aircraft’s agility for close-quarters combat.
> 
> Laurie Hilditch, head of future capabilities at Eurofighter, says the modification kit should give the aircraft the sort of “knife-fight in a phone box” turning capability enjoyed by rivals such as Boeing’s F/A-18E/F or the Lockheed Martin F-16, without sacrificing the transonic and supersonic high-energy agility inherent to its delta wing-canard configuration.
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully if J-10 is modified with such surface controls, J-10 could become a formidable in lower altitude dogfights as well




The strength of J-10 lies in it's ability to carry more weapons on lot more hard points along with a bigger nose section to allow for a bigger radar and it's associated cooling (that is in comparison to the JF-17). It is an excellent strike platform for stand off weapons whether air to ground or air to sea. However, comparing it with Typhoon is a bit unfair, since the Euro consortium knew that delta comes with it's inherent design deficiency, such as bleeding too much energy in a turn. You want to gain that energy as soon as possible for a WVR scenario, and so as such it was given two powerful EJ200s. 

Total thrust with burners for Typhoon is 90KNx2 = 180KN, wheras the AL31 on the J-10 offers 125KN. That is 44% more thrust for about 22% more MTOW of Typhoon. Typhoon also offer a more better useful load of 7,500 Kgs as compared to the 6,000Kgs of J-10.

You may not always need that extra thrust, but it is ALWAYs useful in a tight, dogfight scenario. I believe there is a famous Typhoon vs F-16 video. Typhoon points its nose where it wants and when it wants, meaning you better not let Typhoon on your tail.

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## Beast

Donatello said:


> The strength of J-10 lies in it's ability to carry more weapons on lot more hard points along with a bigger nose section to allow for a bigger radar and it's associated cooling (that is in comparison to the JF-17). It is an excellent strike platform for stand off weapons whether air to ground or air to sea. However, comparing it with Typhoon is a bit unfair, since the Euro consortium knew that delta comes with it's inherent design deficiency, such as bleeding too much energy in a turn. You want to gain that energy as soon as possible for a WVR scenario, and so as such it was given two powerful EJ200s.
> 
> Total thrust with burners for Typhoon is 90KNx2 = 180KN, wheras the AL31 on the J-10 offers 125KN. That is 44% more thrust for about 22% more MTOW of Typhoon. Typhoon also offer a more better useful load of 7,500 Kgs as compared to the 6,000Kgs of J-10.
> 
> You may not always need that extra thrust, but it is ALWAYs useful in a tight, dogfight scenario. I believe there is a famous Typhoon vs F-16 video. Typhoon points its nose where it wants and when it wants, meaning you better not let Typhoon on your tail.


Typhoon is much heavier at 11tons. While J-10B at 9tons and fitted with WS-10A offer 132KN. J-10B also has much smaller wingspan compare to Typhoon. So it efficiency in thrust to weight ratio is not that far from Typhoon.

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## Donatello

Beast said:


> Typhoon is much heavier at 11tons. While J-10B at 9tons and fitted with WS-10A offer 132KN. J-10B also has much smaller wingspan compare to Typhoon. So it efficiency in thrust to weight ratio is not that far from Typhoon.



I compared the MTOW figures which provide a more realistic dynamics. Typhoon or J-10, would obviously weigh more than 11 tons even in a standard, two/four missile CAP configuration. But their real utility lies in their multi-role capability. Even with WS10A at 132KN, Typhoon still retains more thrust. Plus improved versions of EJ200 are also in development/testing.


----------



## Beast

Donatello said:


> I compared the MTOW figures which provide a more realistic dynamics. Typhoon or J-10, would obviously weigh more than 11 tons even in a standard, two/four missile CAP configuration. But their real utility lies in their multi-role capability. Even with WS10A at 132KN, Typhoon still retains more thrust. Plus improved versions of EJ200 are also in development/testing.



I am comparing empty weight. If both fitted weapon and drop tanks. Typhoon will always be heavier than J-10B. But there is no denying of the 180Kn thrust Typhoon offer.

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## Donatello

Beast said:


> I am comparing empty weight. If both fitted weapon and drop tanks. Typhoon will always be heavier than J-10B. But there is no denying of the 180Kn thrust Typhoon offer.



Well, such capable jets would be rarely seen flying in a clean configuration. That's not what they are for.


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## aliaselin

J10B has entered service
中航成飞9架批产飞机交付 6种机型同场试飞(图)-中新网

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## IrbiS

The K/JDC01 laser designator pod used for the LS-500J/LT-2 laser guided bombs carried by J-10, seen here is CAC-owned test aircraft CAC 95613.

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## IrbiS

Possibility is, that J-10B entering PLAAF service 'll be powered by AL-31FN Series III engine with 137kN thrust(from 127kN from earlier AL-31FN).


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## Bratva

J-10 B crashed today due to engine failure.

https://defence.pk/attachments/j-10-crashed-jpg.152103/

https://defence.pk/attachments/j-10-1crashed-jpg.152104/

https://defence.pk/attachments/173250kr9ost9try99zkk9_zps35045a3a-png-original-png.152106/

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## Deino

Bratva said:


> J-10 B crashed today due to engine failure.



Indeed sad, a factory fresh J-10B - if You look closely on the small blade antenna on the spine, the J-10A uses a different model - but a strange coincidence, the pilot was Li Gang, who flew the J-20 prototype during its maiden flight.

Deino


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## Beast

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


slide.mil.news.sina.com.cn/k/slide_8_63454_32755.html#p=19


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## Deino

But it was simply a J-10B ... just compare the images ! So either there are two planes that went down what I can't believe or please look again to the details in my image. The twin-seater J-10AS has a completely different spine.

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## 帅的一匹

Two Parachutes seen because one for pilots and one for ejection seat.


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## cirr

Bratva said:


> J-10 B crashed today due to engine failure.
> 
> https://defence.pk/attachments/j-10-crashed-jpg.152103/
> 
> https://defence.pk/attachments/j-10-1crashed-jpg.152104/
> 
> https://defence.pk/attachments/173250kr9ost9try99zkk9_zps35045a3a-png-original-png.152106/



Not J-10B。It was a J-10S that crashed due to engine failure。

Two pilots，one in his early 30s and the other 50s。


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## BoQ77

Deino said:


> Indeed sad, a factory fresh J-10B - if You look closely on the small blade antenna on the spine, the J-10A uses a different model - but a strange coincidence, the pilot was Li Gang, who flew the J-20 prototype during its maiden flight.
> 
> Deino



an experienced pilot cannot save a single-engine fighter, once its engine failed.
That's why, China should do more to have a reliable engine.


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## Deino

cirr said:


> Not J-10B。It was a J-10S that crashed due to engine failure。
> 
> Two pilots，one in his early 30s and the other 50s。




No ... 100% for sure ! The crashed aircraft is simply a single seater since it lacks the trainer's boxy spine. And regarding that blade antenna I'm truly sure it was a "B".


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## cnleio

Whatever J-10S or J-10B crash, China can build another one ... the sad is one engine lost & 7x injured on ground. 
Damn ... waste our money.


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## 帅的一匹

ask the rusky come and check the engine problem, it's fatal when your enemy knows your weakness.


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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> No ... 100% for sure ! The crashed aircraft is simply a single seater since it lacks the trainer's boxy spine. And regarding that blade antenna I'm truly sure it was a "B".



Have we considered the possibility of a two-seater J-10B? Maybe that's one of the reasons why the pilot was so upset.


----------



## Akasa

Deino said:


> No ... 100% for sure ! The crashed aircraft is simply a single seater since it lacks the trainer's boxy spine. And regarding that blade antenna I'm truly sure it was a "B".



Could it have simply been a newly-built J-10S, to play the devil's advocate?


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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> Have we considered the possibility of a two-seater J-10B? Maybe that's one of the reasons why the pilot was so upset.





SinoSoldier said:


> Could it have simply been a newly-built J-10S, to play the devil's advocate?



For forth answers: NO ! All twin-seaters simply have the enlarged boxy spine - similar to the Israeli F-16D and at least the crashed aircraft lacks this item ... as such it was a single-seater.


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## 帅的一匹

JUST BUILD ANOTHER j10b, PERIOD. SOMETIMES SHIT HAPPENS, THAT'S IT. AL31F HAS SOME PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED AT LOW ATTITUDE, BETTER USE WS10A REPLACE IT OR BUILD UP ANOTHER ASSEMBLY LINE FOR WS10 ENGINE. THIS KIND OF PROBLEM WILL BE ADRRESED WITHIN 2 YEARS.

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## 帅的一匹

We will have better indigenous engine in the future, not a big problem. The most desperate part is not we lose a plane, its about whether we have hope in the future. I'm fully opptimistic about PLAAF's future as we invest billions in engine R&D. such small predicment won't stop our path to become a powerful airforce. Let us have faith in our country, rip to those dead in the accident.

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## Beast

We just have to be abit patient for domestic engine to fully replaced AL-31 imported engine. 2015 will be the year of domestic engine. J-10B , J-16 and J-15 will go operation with domestic taihang engine. J-31 ,J-20 and Y-20 will also debut with new WS-13 ,WS-15 and WS-20. 

Stay tune.

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## 帅的一匹

This accident will accelerate the pace of repalcing AL31F ENGINE with indigenous engine, maybe a blessing in disguise.

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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> This accident will accelerate the pace of repalcing AL31F ENGINE with indigenous engine, maybe a blessing in disguise.



Precisely, they are still plenty of corrupt old fool PLA officers. With Xi new anti corruption drive on the move, most of these corrupted PLA Officers are removed. It will paved way for more good officers who will pushed for domestic engine products.

This accident will add as an catalyst for a even more imminent change in that context.

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## 帅的一匹

year 2016 will be the big year for indigenous engine.


----------



## war is peace

Why 2016 Wang whatsup?


----------



## war is peace

Just curios what willbe the next generation jet engine. Nuclear thermal engines?


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## jkroo

war is peace said:


> Why 2016 Wang whatsup?


The home made engines will be matured in 2016 that is stated by official news.


----------



## BoQ77

How other could think about the accident:

1, the first person was killed by J-10B is not a foreigner, but a Chinese civilian.
2, even Russian made engine failed after short time, the Chinese version engine would be shorter than that.
3, Did the Russian engine or other components cause the accident? Investigation is not made, so who declare the reason by Russian engine? Chinese netizens ?
4. nearly 30 million USD gone. without the calculation of ground damage.
5. Did Russia provide engines which is lower than normal performance ? or frankly, poor quality engine ?


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## GeHAC

BoQ77 said:


> How other could think about the accident:
> 
> 1, the first person was killed by J-10B is not a foreigner, but a Chinese civilian.
> 2, even Russian made engine failed after short time, the Chinese version engine would be shorter than that.
> 3, Did the Russian engine or other components cause the accident? Investigation is not made, so who declare the reason by Russian engine? Chinese netizens ?
> 4. nearly 30 million USD gone. without the calculation of ground damage.
> 5. Did Russia provide engines which is lower than normal performance ? or frankly, poor quality engine ?



1.The pilot is safe,at least we can make good ejector seat.
2.that's not AL-31FN's life-span problem.It is the newest product especially produced for J-10B.
3.Officially unknown,but the APU still works after the engine fail.
4.Ground damage not much.Surely,we can bear that loss.Local officers would happy for the reasons you all know.
5.No exact proof for such comparation.Russian airforce average pilot hours is lower due to the military expenditure.(Our local air force recruitment officers confirmed PLAAF 3gen fighter average pilot hours is more than 200 hours.)But it's still works really well in our airforce.

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## siegecrossbow

BoQ77 said:


> How other could think about the accident:
> 
> 1, the first person was killed by J-10B is not a foreigner,* but a Chinese civilian.*
> 2, even Russian made engine failed after short time, *the Chinese version engine would be shorter than that.*
> 3, Did the Russian engine or other components cause the accident? Investigation is not made, so who declare the reason by Russian engine? Chinese netizens ?
> 4. nearly 30 million USD gone. without the calculation of ground damage.
> 5. Did Russia provide engines which is lower than normal performance ? or frankly, poor quality engine ?



Source(s) or just usual trolling?


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## Beast

siegecrossbow said:


> Source(s) or just usual trolling?


Of coz its trolling. He never produced any facts to back his nonsense.

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## applesauce

Beast said:


> Of coz its trolling. He never produced any facts to back his nonsense.



beacuse mods on defence.pk are rarer than unicorns


----------



## Super Falcon

On which date paf get j 10 hearing it since 2006


----------



## Ultima Thule

Super Falcon said:


> On which date paf get j 10 hearing it since 2006


we can't get J-10, the plan is reverse instead we r going to induct FC-31


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## cirr

BoQ77 said:


> How other could think about the accident:
> 
> 1, the first person was killed by J-10B is not a foreigner, but a Chinese civilian.
> 2, even Russian made engine failed after short time, the Chinese version engine would be shorter than that.
> 3, Did the Russian engine or other components cause the accident? Investigation is not made, so who declare the reason by Russian engine? Chinese netizens ?
> 4. nearly 30 million USD gone. without the calculation of ground damage.
> 5. Did Russia provide engines which is lower than normal performance ? or frankly, poor quality engine ?



You must have been exposed to massive overdoses of radiation。

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## Deino

Since I can now post images ... here's something some might find interesting: in the "Air International", November 2014, p. 70 - 75 ... written by me.

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## HRK

Deino said:


> Since I can now post images ... here's something some might find interesting: in the "Air International", November 2014, p. 70 - 75 ... written by me.
> 
> View attachment 175609



too small can't read ... can you enhance the pic .... ???


----------



## Deino

To admit I only have the original text-file and received this small image from a friend ... but You surely can buy that issue !

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## GeHAC

P2015?

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## 55100864

GeHAC said:


> P2015?


nice pic，but where is 2014 i wonder？


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## 帅的一匹

55100864 said:


> nice pic，but where is 2014 i wonder？


maybe they jump the number as 14 is ominous?



55100864 said:


> nice pic，but where is 2014 i wonder？


maybe they jump the number as 14 is ominous? Or prototype 2014 is used for special purpose? RCS testing，PLT ?

It is maybe the angel problem that i see prototype 2015's fuslage is shorter?


----------



## applesauce

wanglaokan said:


> maybe they jump the number as 14 is ominous?
> 
> 
> maybe they jump the number as 14 is ominous? Or prototype 2014 is used for special purpose? RCS testing，PLT ?
> 
> It is maybe the angel problem that i see prototype 2015's fuslage is shorter?



i doubt it since j-20 is a government project. the PRC government does not subscribe to superstition. for instance there are plenty of buses with 04 as the bus name. im sure chinese speakers know what 4路车 sounds like

heck they've already used "4" in the j-10b project






so 2014 is either static or we just dont have a pic yet or that 2015 is a ps


----------



## 帅的一匹

applesauce said:


> i doubt it since j-20 is a government project. the PRC government does not subscribe to superstition. for instance there are plenty of buses with 04 as the bus name. im sure chinese speakers know what 4路车 sounds like
> 
> heck they've already used "4" in the j-10b project
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so 2014 is either static or we just dont have a pic yet or that 2015 is a ps


I think its for static



GeHAC said:


> P2015?


I think the western spy don't have to recruit memberships in CHina cause we always unintentionally provide any neccessaty information they need.


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## Hyperion

Nope not radiation.... something even worse, he was exposed to massive Yankee ***-whooping! 



cirr said:


> You must have been exposed to massive overdoses of radiation。

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## Deino

Production is continueing on high level ... with now a number close to two full regiments being produced, all I want is a serial number of an operational bird !!

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## 帅的一匹

Replace that damn Al31f , I hate it.

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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> Replace that damn Al31f , I hate it.


The operational one will be powered by domestic one.


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## Deino

As far as it seems right now these are in fact already serial aircraft (spotted with the highest number is Block 1 number 48) and right now it seems as if the first operational ones went to a Brigade within the FTTC while a second delivery will go to an so far unknown operational unit. ... but all are powered by the AL-31FN series III.


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## Beast

Deino said:


> As far as it seems right now these are in fact already serial aircraft (spotted with the highest number is Block 1 number 48) and right now it seems as if the first operational ones went to a Brigade within the FTTC while a second delivery will go to an so far unknown operational unit. ... but all are powered by the AL-31FN series III.


It will be replaced by WS-10A engine when going to be operational.


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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> It will be replaced by WS-10A engine when going to be operational.


hell when? damn it

要是飞豹也能用上WS10A就好了，可怜昨天牺牲的飞行员。

尼玛歌星厂到底在干吗？生产几台像样的发动机就这么难么？要是真到战时这么低下的生产效率咋办？

拜托涡扇9这种性能像翔一样的发动机别再生产了，要杀死多少飞行员才甘心？？？？？“有J16了还生产飞豹这种垃圾货色干啥？飞行员的命不值钱啊？？？


----------



## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> hell when? damn it
> 
> 要是飞豹也能用上WS10A就好了，可怜昨天牺牲的飞行员。
> 
> 尼玛歌星厂到底在干吗？生产几台像样的发动机就这么难么？要是真到战时这么低下的生产效率咋办？
> 
> 拜托涡扇9这种性能像翔一样的发动机别再生产了，要杀死多少飞行员才甘心？？？？？“有J16了还生产飞豹这种垃圾货色干啥？飞行员的命不值钱啊？？？


飞豹用的是WS-9国产发动机。 最近空军的演戏多了。对飞机的要求也高了。出一些问题是难免的。


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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> 飞豹用的是WS-9国产发动机。 最近空军的演戏多了。对飞机的要求也高了。出一些问题是难免的。


It's a tough probem for ground maintenance.


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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> It's a tough probem for ground maintenance.


Who say that? They are many exercise going on in year 2014. All are very realistic that demand a lot from the aircraft. That will even included very low flying to penetrate enemy air defense. If your training is very realistic, it's unavoidable accident will happen. WS-9 is a very good engine. Decent thrust to weight ratio and fuel consumption is one of the lowest.

China Defense Blog: Chinese military exercises create records in 2014


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## 帅的一匹

@Beast 说句实在的兄弟，WS10A到底啥时候能量产？



Beast said:


> Who say that? They are many exercise going on in year 2014. All are very realistic that demand a lot from the aircraft. That will even included very low flying to penetrate enemy air defense. If your training is very realistic, it's unavoidable accident will happen. WS-9 is a very good engine. Decent thrust to weight ratio and fuel consumption is one of the lowest.
> 
> China Defense Blog: Chinese military exercises create records in 2014


I know, i mean the increasing exsercise brings challenge to ground maintenance. It will benifit PLAAF in the long run.

PLAAF pilotes are really wothy of being respected, they never give up the plane until their last moment. Salute!

现在连统战部部长令计划（其兄令政策和令完成）都抓起来了，看来习大大要玩真的了。

有老板姓的全力支持，习大大放开手反腐。习近平继承了毛主席的政治手腕同时又遵循邓小平的经济框架，千古奇才是也！

要是习能早十年上台，中国也许会更好！

以前说不反腐要亡国，反腐过度要亡党。实施证明这是谬论！只要拥有百姓的支持，国家不但不会灭亡反而会更加昌盛！


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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> @Beast 说句实在的兄弟，WS10A到底啥时候能量产？


已经大俩生产。 不过， 只能等到明年才能看得到结果。今年生产，明年装机。j-11B 用的是去年的WS-10A。

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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> 已经大俩生产。 不过， 只能等到明年才能看得到结果。今年生产，明年装机。j-11B 用的是去年的WS-10A。


为什么今年生产明年才装机？


----------



## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> 为什么今年生产明年才装机？


一个好和严格的产品要经过多项QA，才能上货。一点都不希奇。


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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> 一个好和严格的产品要经过多项QA，才能上货。一点都不希奇。


多谢指点

发动机新品是否要经过地面试车才能装机？

不知道现在一年能生产多少台WS10。算了不讨论这个了，容易泄密。


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## nomi007



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## Deino

To admit ... a funny PS-Job !!! 

It looks exactly like I once - many, many years ago - expected a twin-engine RD-93-powered version to look like ...  ... but now there won't be a twin-engine J-10 any more.

Deino

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## Deino

Uppsss ... also a bit dated this tread ... I try to bring it a bit more up to date if You allow me to.

The first operational J-10B - all powered by AL-31FN Seies III - will go (most likely) to the 170. Brigade at the FTTC (assuming the 78x1x is correct) ... however with so far more than 43 J-10Bs produced so far even a fully equipped second unit (or first front-line regiment) MUST be already equipped ... I would love to know what unit they received (reported is a regiment within the 44. FD).

Deino

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## cirr

China Central Television（CCTV）is reportedly shooting a documentary about CAC 






14 J-10Bs lining up for the film crew。

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## Deino

cirr said:


> China Central Television（CCTV）is reportedly shooting a documentary about CAC
> 
> 14 J-10Bs lining up for the film crew。




Can anyone read the number !!!!???? PLEASE .....


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## trident2010

Nice pics !! 

Good luck China

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## Manticore

j10c




j10b

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## Deino

Yeppp ... already posted in the J-10B tread (sorry !)

IMO another surprise  before the new year holydays ... if it is real then this would be a J-10C !

Even more since 101x = J-10A pre-serials, 102x = J-10S prototypes, 103x = J-10B prototypes, and now maybe 105x = J-10C prototype ... all what is missing is a 104x = maybe the J-10BS prototypes !! 

Marked are the only two differences I noted.

Deino


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## Manticore

Manticore said:


>


any visual diff between c and b?
@cirr


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## Deino

Yeppp ... only a new blade antenna on the spine and a small dark "bump" on the tail !

Overall a bit disappointing ...

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## Manticore

Deino said:


> Yeppp ... only a new blade antenna on the spine and a small dark "bump" on the tail !
> 
> Overall a bit disappointing ...
> 
> View attachment 186420


cft option would have been great


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## sancho

Manticore said:


> cft option would have been great



A must have, otherwise the fighter simply will remain to be far too limited in load capabilties.


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## Deino

Manticore said:


> cft option would have been great




Yes ... IMO or better to say in my hopes, this secret J-10C was always more a Block-50/60-like multirole fighter maybe featuring an enlarged spine for additional avionics, targeting pods (these may come later) ... so it seems as if the step from "B" to "C" is at least externally only a minor one.

Deino


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## Sasquatch

Manticore said:


> j1oc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> j10b



Only changes are upgraded avionics.


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## sancho

Hu Songshan said:


> Only changes are upgraded avionics.



Can you specify that?


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## DrSomnath999

j 10 c was supposed to have AESA radar 
some improved MAWS like DDM Ng 

can anyone confirm it

*CHEERS*


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## cirr



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## metronome

nice, could someone post some HD pics as well ?


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## Deino

Someone should only tell me the serial numbers of the first operational regiment !! PLEASE ....


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## Irfan Baloch

Superboy said:


> J-10A is obsolete.


SO do you think making J-10 was a mistake?
who would you blame for such blunder?


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## 帅的一匹

Irfan Baloch said:


> SO do you think making J-10 was a mistake?
> who would you blame for such blunder?


J10 is far from Obsolete, he is exaggerating.

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## Superboy

J-10B looks way better than J-10A

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## Martian2

I've been discussing military matters here with the rest of you for over five years now. For fun, I've extended the discussion into mainstream forums. By the way, I created the labeled graphic (see below) for the J-10B a few years ago.

China's J-10 advocated as Argentine 'Typhoon beater' - IHS Jane's 360

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## rcrmj

Martian2 said:


> I've been discussing military matters here with the rest of you for over five years now. For fun, I've extended the discussion into mainstream forums. By the way, I created the labeled graphic (see below) for the J-10B a few years ago.
> 
> China's J-10 advocated as Argentine 'Typhoon beater' - IHS Jane's 360


J-10B dose not equip with AESA radar``but C does, and the number of B type is minimum and almost identical to C, as far as I know

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## Martian2

*J-10A quad-petal airbrakes*

I was watching a video on the J-10 and I was surprised to see four small airbrakes when it landed. Here's a picture of the J-10A quad-petal airbrakes.
----------

Chengdu J-10 Photo Walkaround | Bring the heat, Bring the Stupid





_"Tangentially located four-petal airbrakes on the rear fuselage (2 are located next to the tail and the other 2 are located between the ventral stabilators."_

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## 菜鸟耶夫斯基

This page in facebook seems like a PLAAF fans club. I found some beautiful photos of J-10.
































Two of the others.

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## 菜鸟耶夫斯基

Sorry
I forgot these. 
You guys can post thanks in this page and you'll see its updates In Chinese and English.

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## 菜鸟耶夫斯基

is there no body report news of J-10？
...................

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## SBD-3

J-10s of PLAAF demonstration team parked along side grippens.

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## chou.wong

Owais said:


> can any one tell me what kind of avionics & radar are used in F-10?


sorry

we can do it but we will not show anyone before we use it very skilled


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## Deino

Hey ... quite a long time without any impressive News or Image !!!
What's wrong ???
Here finally a new J-10B Serial ... they are now at 51 !

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## Path-Finder

Deino said:


> Hey ... quite a long time without any impressive News or Image !!!
> What's wrong ???
> Here finally a new J-10B Serial ... they are now at 51 !
> 
> View attachment 220938



Nothing escapes the Dino!

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## 帅的一匹

for me , J10A is totally different from J10b.


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## cirr

New pic old plane

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## Deino

Another grey J-10B at CAC ... but still again without a serial !

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## Deino

A very nice shot ...

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## Beast

Deino said:


> A very nice shot ...
> 
> View attachment 232731


Super short legged J-10 configuration. With a single drop tank and almost fully loaded.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Beast said:


> Super short legged J-10 configuration. With a single drop tank and almost fully loaded.



I don't see any drop thank there ... Its all bombs, missiles and rockets 
Impressive configuration.


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## MastanKhan

DANGER-ZONE said:


> I don't see any drop thank there ... Its all bombs, missiles and rockets
> Impressive configuration.




It is just for show----.


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## Deino

Hmmm ... again a new - so far not identified - J-10AS with the serial 3-11 ...










But do we have confirmation of the first operational J-10B regiment ??

Deino

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## nana41

vnomad said:


> Shouldn't this be the EL/M-2032. I've never heard of an Elta-2035.


Among the series of Israeali Aeasa radars ,Elta-2035 is a successor of 2032.And Chinese were a big customer of Israeli avionics and Fire Control Systems. India is negotiating for the purchase of ELM-2032/34 forTEJAS


----------



## Akasa

nana41 said:


> Among the series of Israeali Aeasa radars ,Elta-2035 is a successor of 2032.And Chinese are a big customer of Israeli avionics and Fire Control Systems. India is negotiating for the purchase of ELM-2032/34 forTEJAS



I haven't read of any Israeli electronics used in Chinese aircraft.


----------



## Beast

nana41 said:


> Among the series of Israeali Aeasa radars ,Elta-2035 is a successor of 2032.And Chinese are a big customer of Israeli avionics and Fire Control Systems. India is negotiating for the purchase of ELM-2032/34 forTEJAS


Chinese avionics is competitive with Israel radars.

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## bdslph

j10 is still in testing bed and improving


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## Deino

bdslph said:


> j10 is still in testing bed and improving




Not sure what You want to say with that, but I do not agree: The J-10A's production has ended after 7 production blocks and about 250 aircraft being build. Its trainer version J-10AS as seen above is still in production in block 3 and we have already seen more than 53 J-10B flying. 

So I really wouldn't say it is still in test - even if I dare to know what's the first operational unit yet ! - ....

Deino

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## nana41

Beast said:


> Chinese avionics is competitive with Israel radars.


Not yet.But Chinese will catch up with Israelis in very near future.Remember,Israelis technology is basically American Technology transferred overtly or stolen covertly .


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## Beast

nana41 said:


> Not yet.But Chinese will catch up with Israelis in very near future.Remember,Israelis technology is basically American Technology transferred overtly or stolen covertly .


Israel military technology is responsible for many of American technology and not the other way round. The whole Apache and F-15 are basically empty shell delivered to Israel except engine and fill with Israel avionics.

The Chinese has demonstrated since 2000s of capable of matching everything Israel radar can made for warship, aircraft and AWACS. The Phalcon issue has long passed over.

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## MastanKhan

Beast said:


> Israel military technology is responsible for many of American technology and not the other way round. The whole Apache and F-15 are basically empty shell delivered to Israel except engine and fill with Israel avionics.
> 
> The Chinese has demonstrated since 2000s of capable of matching everything Israel radar can made for warship, aircraft and AWACS. The Phalcon issue has long passed over.



Hi,

Thank you for your post---. People fail to see how technologically advance Israel is---. They forget that that the agency spent millions and billions on jewish scientists in communist Russia to spill out their secrets to the U S.

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## Beast

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your post---. People fail to see how technologically advance Israel is---. They forget that that the agency spent millions and billions on jewish scientists in communist Russia to spill out their secrets to the U S.



You are right. The Americans are not dumb to give billions of financial aid to Israel every year. Most of those money are repaid in patent right and technology transfers back to US.

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## Donatello

Bhai,

I've always stated that the Chinese have made massive gains in electronics. The only subjects their future youth is studying in the west is all electronics and high tech....like Semiconductors, optoelectronics, Digital Signal Processing high frequency and variable frequency electric drives....all the stuff that makes your modern defense possible.

Engines are not an issue if they can't build it themselves, there is Russia and soon, just like Iran has got a big relief, the European and American firms are gonna lobby to allow them to do joint-ventures with the Chinese. Maybe not direct technology, but something like gas turbine collaboration....whether it is MTU Aeroengines, Volvo, SNECMA or GE.
Sooner than later they would want to tap that market. If they can do it with India, why not China?

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## hotpizza

latest J20 photo

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## davidwang

DrSomnath999 said:


> j 10 c was supposed to have AESA radar
> some improved MAWS like DDM Ng
> 
> can anyone confirm it
> 
> *CHEERS*


yes, latest model of J-10 has AESA, but perhaps not the most advanced AESA model


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## Deino

Another new bird ...

Serial 78363 is from the 175. Brigade ... and as reported by Huitong should be assigned to the FTTC Dingxin Flight Test & Training Base.

Deino

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## Viper0011.

Deino said:


> *Another new bird + maybe new unit !*
> 
> View attachment 252767



New bird without the AESA? I thought the new J-10's had AESA and it was in the current batch?


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## Akasa

Viper0011. said:


> New bird without the AESA? I thought the new J-10's had AESA and it was in the current batch?



The picture is that of a J-10S, not a J-10B. Only J-10Bs have AESA radars.

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## Zarvan

I am having a debate with another Pakistani who claims that J-10 B doesn't have AESA and till now even PLA doesn't have single squadron of J-10 B so guys please I need details.
@Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986 @Beast

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## Indus Falcon

Zarvan said:


> I am having a debate with another Pakistani who claims that J-10 B doesn't have AESA and till now even PLA doesn't have single squadron of J-10 B so guys please I need details.
> @Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986 @Beast


Sinodefence.com

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## Beast

Zarvan said:


> I am having a debate with another Pakistani who claims that J-10 B doesn't have AESA and till now even PLA doesn't have single squadron of J-10 B so guys please I need details.
> @Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986 @Beast


Indeed, J-10B is still not in service yet but not becos of AESA radar but waiting for the domestic 14000KN engine which just approved for production.

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## Zarvan

Beast said:


> Indeed, J-10B is still not in service yet but not becos of AESA radar but waiting for the domestic 14000KN engine which just approved for production.


Okay but what AESA radar J-10 B has


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## HAIDER

*Possible single large MFD panel for the J-10B...*

*Comparing to US AC...J10 is 1200 *


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## Deino

Beast said:


> Indeed, J-10B is still not in service yet but not becos of AESA radar but waiting for the domestic 14000KN engine which just approved for production.




Are You sure !??

I thought this is in regard to the next version J-10C, since the J-10B is already operational within the FTTC's 170. Brigade and - even if not confirmed - a regiment within the 2. Fighter Division.

However all still powered by AL-31FN Series III.

Deino

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## Indus Falcon

Deino said:


> Are You sure !??
> 
> I thought this is in regard to the next version J-10C, since the J-10B is already operational within the FTTC's 170. Brigade and - even if not confirmed - a regiment within the 2. Fighter Division.
> 
> However all still powered by AL-31FN Series III.
> 
> Deino



Wasn't a squadron or two deployed in Tibet?


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## HAIDER

Deino said:


> Are You sure !??
> 
> I thought this is in regard to the next version J-10C, since the J-10B is already operational within the FTTC's 170. Brigade and - even if not confirmed - a regiment within the 2. Fighter Division.
> 
> However all still powered by AL-31FN Series III.
> 
> Deino


That's what every chinese news outlet.....


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## Deino

HAIDER said:


> That's what every chinese news outlet.....




And what's wrong then ??

I know that the Chinese media quite often reports this and that and even more the uninformed western media picks up immediately the most scary news just to draw an image of "danker from the east" ... the best proof however to be sure that an aircraft is in service is to know their serials since then You can identify its unit.

Quite typically and IMO - at least for my own research on the PLAAF's units the most difficult part is to find confirmed serials. Just take a look, we know that the Y-8GX-6 has been spotted in service, the first serial J-16s were spotted ... and the J-10B is not different.

Deino

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Are You sure !??
> 
> I thought this is in regard to the next version J-10C, since the J-10B is already operational within the FTTC's 170. Brigade and - even if not confirmed - a regiment within the 2. Fighter Division.
> 
> However all still powered by AL-31FN Series III.
> 
> Deino


No its not in service. Not even a serial number spotted despite being in grey PLAAF color.


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## HAIDER

Deino said:


> And what's wrong then ??
> 
> I know that the Chinese media quite often reports this and that and even more the uninformed western media picks up immediately the most scary news just to draw an image of "danker from the east" ... the best proof however to be sure that an aircraft is in service is to know their serials since then You can identify its unit.
> 
> Quite typically and IMO - at least for my own research on the PLAAF's units the most difficult part is to find confirmed serials. Just take a look, we know that the Y-8GX-6 has been spotted in service, the first serial J-16s were spotted ... and the J-10B is not different.
> 
> Deino





Deino said:


> And what's wrong then ??
> 
> I know that the Chinese media quite often reports this and that and even more the uninformed western media picks up immediately the most scary news just to draw an image of "danker from the east" ... the best proof however to be sure that an aircraft is in service is to know their serials since then You can identify its unit.
> 
> Quite typically and IMO - at least for my own research on the PLAAF's units the most difficult part is to find confirmed serials. Just take a look, we know that the Y-8GX-6 has been spotted in service, the first serial J-16s were spotted ... and the J-10B is not different.
> 
> Deino


A row of 14 J-10B fighters at the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation airfield seen before their deploymen





An early January sighting of 14 J-10B fighters at the airfield of Factory 132 of the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) indicates this updated fighter may soon be deployed to its first operational regiment.

A People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) fighter regiment usually has about 24 aircraft.

Chinese commentators suggested the fighters may have been assembled for a transfer ceremony or another publicity exercise. Images show the J-10B fighters in the usual grey colour scheme of the PLAAF, an indication they may soon be deployed.

Following a testing programme that started in late 2008, images of the aircraft from the first J-10B production batch emerged in December 2013. Throughout 2014 Chinese aircraft spotters posted images of this first production batch, first in yellow primer and then in service grey.

Early images of the J-10B started to appear in March 2009, although it reportedly first flew on 23 December 2008. Its prominent improvements over the J-10A include a diverterless supersonic intake (DSI) for the engine, a new phased array radar in a flatter shaped nose, a new infrared search and track (IRST) system in front of the windscreen, a metalised cockpit to reduce radar reflectivity, and new electronic warfare (EW) systems in front of the canards and atop the vertical stabiliser.




With its longer-range phased array radar the J-10B is expected to be able to better employ its 100 km-range PL-12 active-guided air-to-air missiles (AAMs), future improved versions, and possible new longer range versions. Since 2008 Chinese sources have hinted that a longer range ramjet-powered PL-12 version may be under development.

A twin-seat version of the J-10B has not yet emerged, but there is speculation about a future twin-seat strike-fighter version that may compete with the Shenyang J-16. One possible indication of this is that Chengdu has done wind tunnel testing of conformal fuselage fuel tanks for the J-10.

The first J-10B production batch will be powered by Russian Saturn AL-31FN turbofans. Though an example powered by a Shenyang-Liming WS-10A turbofan emerged in July 2011, there is speculation that either insufficient performance or production may be delaying its adoption.

In April 2014 an Asian government source told _IHS Jane's_ that in early 2014 the PLAAF had 220 J-10A and twin-seat J-10BS fighters, with this number estimated to increase to 400 by 2020. This could indicate an annual production rate of about 30 advanced J-10s.

*COMMENT*
The incipient arrival of the J-10B in PLAAF service is another step towards almost the potential for air superiority in the event of conflict with Taiwan. Along with the J-10s, the PLAAF can rely on Su-30MKK and the Su-30-derived J-11 and J-16s to bring beyond visual range (BVR) and helmet-sighted AAMs to a fight, while they are also reportedly able to carry the YJ-12 air-launched anti-ship cruise missile.

Such capabilities complicate potential US intervention in a Taiwan crisis and also suggest that the Indian Air Force would struggle to cope if the two countries were to clash on the Line of Actual Control in the Himalayas.

While China is making well-documented progress with fighter aircraft - including the J-15 carrier fighter, and J-20 and J-31 stealthy fighters - its issues with indigenous engines and support aircraft are also well known.

In a sign that it may be making progress with the former, the Chengdu Engine Group Company (CEGC) posted an update on its website on 9 January saying that it had successfully tested a new indigenous engine on an Il-76 testbed from September to December 2014. The engine is likely to be the WS-20 high-bypass engine, which was first seen on an Il-76 testbed in January 2014 and is believed to be destined for the Y-20 strategic airlifter.

Russian think tank the Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) also suggested that it could be fitted to the Xian H-6 strategic bomber.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> No its not in service. Not even a serial number spotted despite being in grey PLAAF color.



Then these all must be psed !?? 

These are from or for the so far not confirmed 2. Division: Agreed not all have their serials applied and they are blurred, but they are 100 % for sure not the already known four-digit 103x-serials of the prototypes.












... and these are even better confirmed from the 170. Brigade / FTTC:







... even more these too have yellow five-digit operational serials ending with 0,2,6 and 8; however blurred again !

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## HAIDER

"
As for the question if China-made engine is installed on the J-10B fighter, Zhang Zhaozhong said that it is possible for trail use of China-made “Taihang” engine on the J-10B fighter.

“Although the performance of the ‘Taihang’ engine is better than that of AF-31F engine imported from Russia, such factors as reliability and service life of the ‘Taihang’ engine have to be determined through many years’ trials. These are gaps which China should still spend a lot time to narrow,” Zhang said."
@Beast @Deino


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## Zarvan

Deino said:


> Are You sure !??
> 
> I thought this is in regard to the next version J-10C, since the J-10B is already operational within the FTTC's 170. Brigade and - even if not confirmed - a regiment within the 2. Fighter Division.
> 
> However all still powered by AL-31FN Series III.
> 
> Deino


And they have AESA radar ? @Deino


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## Deino

From what I've read no, only a PESA ... as Beast noted the power output is not sufficient for an AESA (maybe) !


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## HAIDER

AL31f is only engine solution.


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Then these all must be psed !??
> 
> These are from or for the so far not confirmed 2. Division: Agreed not all have their serials applied and they are blurred, but they are 100 % for sure not the already known four-digit 103x-serials of the prototypes.
> 
> View attachment 254551
> View attachment 254552
> View attachment 254553
> 
> 
> ... and these are even better confirmed from the 170. Brigade / FTTC:
> 
> View attachment 254554
> 
> 
> 
> ... even more these too have yellow five-digit operational serials ending with 0,2,6 and 8; however blurred again !
> 
> View attachment 254555



Have you even seen or heard them in operation? Nil. J-10B has not put into operation. It will wait for the new production 14000KN WS-10B engine.






After 22.40s, there's a lot of info about WS-10 engine. Unfortunately, it all in Chinese but we may not need to wait to long. The domestic engine for J-10B is coming. From the video BG, you can see rows and lines of WS-10 engine assemble. Technician working on mass of WS-10 engine ready to be equipped on domestic fighter jet. Already the J-16 has fitted with WS-10A engine and goes operational. Next will be J-10B turn.


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## Deino

Beast said:


> Have you even seen or heard them in operation? Nil. J-10B has not put into operation. It will wait for the new production 14000KN WS-10B engine.
> 
> .....



Come one ... then please explain:

1. all these J-10Bs with 5-digit serials ??

2. what the PLAAF does in the meantime with them. Confirmed are now already 54 J-10Bs

So are they standing around with still their AL-31FN installed and only waiting for the WS-10B ??


By the way it seems as if for the first time I'm more optimistic than You what the operational and technical maturity in regards of a Chinese fighters !

Deino


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Come one ... then please explain:
> 
> 1. all these J-10Bs with 5-digit serials ??
> 
> 2. what the PLAAF does in the meantime with them. Confirmed are now already 54 J-10Bs
> 
> So are they standing around with still their AL-31FN installed and only waiting for the WS-10B ??
> 
> 
> By the way it seems as if for the first time I'm more optimistic than You what the operational and technical maturity in regards of a Chinese fighters !
> 
> Deino



That does not matter, you can have one thousand J-10B parking there with whatever fanciful numbers but they are not going into squadron to do the job or serving the armed forces. It defeat the purpose of operation and confirmation they are not joining the armed forces yet. Show me evident of their operation acitivities? They are still waiting for domestic engine. We have already seen J-16 activities but no J-10B yet. So far what J-10B is doing is only flying test. Installing AL-31F engine is just to speed up the operational process and ensure the airframe readiness. They will be swap with more powerful domestic engine. PLAAF top brass indicate super cruise is a must for J-10B.


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## Deino

Beast said:


> That does not matter, you can have one thousand J-10B parking there with whatever fanciful numbers but they are not going into squadron to do the job or serving the armed forces. It defeat the purpose of operation and confirmation they are not joining the armed forces yet. Show me evident of their operation acitivities? They are still waiting for domestic engine. We have already seen J-16 activities but no J-10B yet. So far what J-10B is doing is only flying test. Installing AL-31F engine is just to speed up the operational process and ensure the airframe readiness. They will be swap with more powerful domestic engine. PLAAF top brass indicate super cruise is a must for J-10B.




Are we again at a point where I show You evidence and You tell simply NO !!!

Sorry my friend, already 14 aircraft in a row in PLAAF-colours + 5-digit serials tell me they are in service ... They are maybe not fully operational, they are maybe only for further evaluation ... and awaiting their final engines + avionics at a later date. But why then they are all already equipped with AL-31FN engines ?? Why that AL-31FN Series III deal ??

Please don't tell me, us or the PLAAF so stupid that they would build now more than 54 J-10B, fit them with engines just to let them rustling on an unknown airfield.

Otherwise again show me a report that they are not in service due to a certain reason ... or explain what the PLAAF wants to do so long with them ?

Deino

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Are we again at a point where I show You evidence and You tell simply NO !!!
> 
> Sorry my friend, already 14 aircraft in a row in PLAAF-colours + 5-digit serials tell me they are in service ... They are maybe not fully operational, they are maybe only for further evaluation ... and awaiting their final engines + avionics at a later date. But why then they are all already equipped with AL-31FN engines ?? Why that AL-31FN Series III deal ??
> 
> Please don't tell me, us or the PLAAF so stupid that they would build now more than 54 J-10B, fit them with engines just to let them rustling on an unknown airfield.
> 
> Otherwise again show me a report that they are not in service due to a certain reason ... or explain what the PLAAF wants to do so long with them ?
> 
> Deino



Change of requirement. The success induction of WS-10B is a major reason for their change of requirement and therefore delay of J-10B induction. I do know these squadron are formed not very recent. And these pic are not very new but think abt it. Why the lack of news requiring their operation and induction? While J-16 has already leak of news of their activities and induction in operation. While rhese J-10B are sitting there for such long time. China is rich and she can afford wasting those few AL-31F engine. No WS-10B engine, no operation J-10B. They are single engine and they need more thrust more than the twin engine J-16.


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## Deino

Come on ... even with an interim engine and a maybe changed requirement, a J-10B would be a vast improvement over many fighters in the current PLAAF inventory including many older J-10A models. Really, the PLAAF would - and I'm sure they already do so - surely operate them instead of wasting them only due to a lacking final engine; that would be plain stupid.

Deino


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## SQ8

Deino said:


> Come on ... even with an interim engine and a maybe changed requirement, a J-10B would be a vast improvement over many fighters in the current PLAAF inventory including many older J-10A models. Really, the PLAAF would - and I'm sure they already do so - surely operate them instead of wasting them only due to a lacking final engine; that would be plain stupid.
> 
> Deino


The gentleman is absolutely out of logical proof to back his claim sadly.

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## Zarvan

Pakistan needs J-10 B or J-11 D. J-31 is not going to come in PAF for at least next 8 years we need a third 4.5th Generation platform weather it's J-10 B or J-11 D.


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## Deino

Oscar said:


> The gentleman is absolutely out of logical proof to back his claim sadly.



Sorry Sir, but could You please explain why I am "absolutely out of logical" !?? Or did I misunderstand Your post ?

IMO a J-10B even with AL-31FN is surely an improvement in comparison to a standard J-10A also with an AL-31FN ... so why should they build them and stand them beside ??

Where is there no logic ... or better where is the logic to do so ??

Deino


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## SQ8

Deino said:


> Sorry Sir, but could You please explain why I am "absolutely out of logical" !?? Or did I misunderstand Your post ?
> 
> IMO a J-10B even with AL-31FN is surely an improvement in comparison to a standard J-10A also with an AL-31FN ... so why should they build them and stand them beside ??
> 
> Where is there no logic ... or better where is the logic to do so ??
> 
> Deino


Not you, the member you are quoting.

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Come on ... even with an interim engine and a maybe changed requirement, a J-10B would be a vast improvement over many fighters in the current PLAAF inventory including many older J-10A models. Really, the PLAAF would - and I'm sure they already do so - surely operate them instead of wasting them only due to a lacking final engine; that would be plain stupid.
> 
> Deino


Does it matter much for an airframe expect to serve PLAAF for another 2-3 decades sitting there wasting just another 1-2 years? Why do you keep harping on this issue? Did I say WS-10B engine will be deploy in another 10years time? Did my video of WS-10 engine coming off from the line from the Chinese documentary is fake? Or you try to act blur claiming you cant recognise those WS-10 engine?



Oscar said:


> Not you, the member you are quoting.


Yes, we are talking abt the brilliant Oscar who mock Chinese can't even produce an turbofan last 300hrs of lifespan. I guess PLAAF is quite rich to replace the Russian AL-31F engine with a shorter lifespan WS-10 engine. Or the Chinese video documentary is faking all those domestic engine production like Hollywood movies 

I will not stop you and ur delusion. You are free to choose what u want to believe. At the same time, we do know what the pakistan abilities.

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## SQ8

Beast said:


> Does it matter much for an airframe expect to serve PLAAF for another 2-3 decades sitting there wasting just another 1-2 years? Why do you keep harping on this issue? Did I say WS-10B engine will be deploy in another 10years time? Did my video of WS-10 engine coming off from the line from the Chinese documentary is fake? Or you try to act blur claiming you cant recognise those WS-10 engine?
> 
> 
> Yes, we are talking abt the brilliant Oscar who mock Chinese can't even produce an turbofan last 300hrs of lifespan. I guess PLAAF is quite rich to replace the Russian AL-31F engine with a shorter lifespan WS-10 engine. Or the Chinese video documentary is faking all those domestic engine production like Hollywood movies
> 
> I will not stop you and ur delusion. You are free to choose what u want to believe. At the same time, we do know what the pakistan abilities.



Spoken like a true insecure person. Lets go to first how your logic to Deino assertion is flawed and essentially spurious. Your whole assertion started out with saying the there is no J-10B with the PLAAF due to engine issues. 
Then after seeing the picture with the flightline who shot off a completely nonsensical tangent about engine production and the WS-10B that had ZERO relevance to the question of why are there 14 J-10B airframes lined up on an operational PLAAF airbase? 

Interestingly, my claim has never been that the Chinese cannot produce the engine design(which they are).. but infact lack manufacturing processes to produce the required metallurgical components on a mass scale. 

But then again, you are the epitome of a fake Chinese analyst who spends all his time on forums claiming to know something actual and then resorting to attacks when you are found to have your pants pulled down. You are not someone who comes to talk with knowledge but rather a mixture of copy-paste and what you make up. 
An insult to Chinese members on this forum if nothing else.

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## rcrmj

Beast said:


> Have you even seen or heard them in operation? Nil. J-10B has not put into operation. It will wait for the new production 14000KN WS-10B engine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After 22.40s, there's a lot of info about WS-10 engine. Unfortunately, it all in Chinese but we may not need to wait to long. The domestic engine for J-10B is coming. From the video BG, you can see rows and lines of WS-10 engine assemble. Technician working on mass of WS-10 engine ready to be equipped on domestic fighter jet. Already the J-16 has fitted with WS-10A engine and goes operational. Next will be J-10B turn.



there are certain numbers in service```confirmed by 'big shrimps' from CJDBY
and the initial few J-10B were equipped with PESA, but the rest are AESA with new designation of J-10C
@Deino

and we wont see J-10C with Taihang WS-10G in near future, as we have quite a few stock pile of AL-31s, and it is enough for 100-200 new fighters``

the current WS-10G production is just enough for the deployment of J-16


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## MastanKhan

Zarvan said:


> I am having a debate with another Pakistani who claims that J-10 B doesn't have AESA and till now even PLA doesn't have single squadron of J-10 B so guys please I need details.
> @Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986 @Beast




My 2 Bits---even though I don't give them too often---don't get into an argument to win it---just lay down your points.



Deino said:


> Then these all must be psed !??
> 
> These are from or for the so far not confirmed 2. Division: Agreed not all have their serials applied and they are blurred, but they are 100 % for sure not the already known four-digit 103x-serials of the prototypes.
> 
> View attachment 254551
> View attachment 254552
> View attachment 254553
> 
> 
> ... and these are even better confirmed from the 170. Brigade / FTTC:
> 
> View attachment 254554
> 
> 
> 
> ... even more these too have yellow five-digit operational serials ending with 0,2,6 and 8; however blurred again !
> 
> View attachment 254555



Hi,

Or they could be for Pakistan----.

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## HAIDER

MastanKhan said:


> My 2 Bits---even though I don't give them too often---don't get into an argument to win it---just lay down your points.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Or they could be for Pakistan----.


If these 14 been parked and not in service means, some big technical flaw, which realize after many test flights...and what the flaw ????...


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## MastanKhan

HAIDER said:


> If these 14 been parked and not in service means, some big technical flaw, which realize after many test flights...and what the flaw ????...



Hi,

These colors are for active service---and it does not look like the engine area covered----so---they must be in operational---.---

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## Zarvan

MastanKhan said:


> My 2 Bits---even though I don't give them too often---don't get into an argument to win it---just lay down your points.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Or they could be for Pakistan----.


Well after knowing things here it seem J-10 B is not even fully developed yet that is why we never went for it. If they manage to develop it soon I am quite sure we would go for it and in large numbers. PAF knows very well that J-31 won't come in next 8 years we need a third 4.5th Generation Platform and J-10 B or J-11 D are our best options. @dieno @Beast


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## MastanKhan

Zarvan said:


> Well after knowing things here it seem J-10 B is not even fully developed yet that is why we never went for it. If they manage to develop it soon I am quite sure we would go for it and in large numbers. PAF knows very well that J-31 won't come in next 8 years we need a third 4.5th Generation Platform and J-10 B or J-11 D are our best options. @dieno @Beast




Hi,

J31 is 10 years +++ away----. More like 15---and that would be the right time for it to mature---.

J10B is ready---ask your source which base has the J10B's-----

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## Zarvan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> J31 is 10 years +++ away----. More like 15---and that would be the right time for it to mature---.
> 
> J10B is ready---ask your source which base has the J10B's-----


Sir if you all pages of this thread you would realize that J-10 B is not ready and we need at least a third platform although if economy improves much faster pace I would like to see two one Air Superiority fighter and second a bomber like J-16, but at least one Air Superiority Fighter is needed

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## MastanKhan

Zarvan said:


> Sir if you all pages of this thread you would realize that J-10 B is not ready and we need at least a third platform although if economy improves much faster pace I would like to see two one Air Superiority fighter and second a bomber like J-16, but at least one Air Superiority Fighter is needed



Ask your buddy if he can find 2 of them somewhere. It is ready and as good as it can be---.

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## !eon

MastanKhan said:


> Or they could be for Pakistan----.


That's what I was also thinking.


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## Deino

To admit: I don't think so ! The PLAAF is eagerly awaiting such a sophisticated system for its own so that I really can't think they will sell them first.

Deino


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

People may believe it or not---it is their choice----. But 18 of them are available to Pakistan at a simple nod----.

After the announcement of the China / Gwadar corridor----China realizes that its need of the J10B is as important as that of Pakistan's----. This arrangement has reached a stage that any TIER1 item that the Chinese military is acquiring---maybe acquired by the Pakistan military on the basis of equal preference ( staying within reason )---to meet the needs of Pakistan military.

The importance of the corridor was enhanced by the reaction of india towards it----. It was somewhat anticipated---but not to that extent that india would openly threaten it.

So---here is something to ponder about-----Just like the Z10's what about the J10B's. Is there a needle or two in the haystack somewhere.

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## Deino

A new image ...

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## nadeemkhan110

J-10 speed is outstanding I think its 2600/kmh


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## nadeemkhan110

*as per Chinies engineers j-10 B is equal or more capable then latest f-16*


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## Deino

nadeemkhan110 said:


> J-10 speed is outstanding I think its 2600/kmh



No ... surely not !

As far as I know t is confirmed to be ach 1,85 as regular maximum speed, ... max. achieved speed was Mach 2,2 I think !


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## nadeemkhan110

Deino said:


> No ... surely not !
> 
> As far as I know t is confirmed to be ach 1,85 as regular maximum speed, ... max. achieved speed was Mach 2,2 I think !


 as per Wikipedia J-10 Top speed is 2,327 km/h

and F22 top speed is 2,410 km/h j10 speed is not bad


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## Deino

I never said it's bad, but only very few fighters today can reach Your mentioned 2600 km/h ... and the J-10 simply not.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Deino said:


> A new image ...
> 
> View attachment 255948



WOW ..... Retractable Refueling Probe and New AESA Radar. 
Feel really bad for not seeing this jet in PAF.


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## Deino

I don't think that this is a retractable IFR-probe ... IMO simply the standard one !


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## DANGER-ZONE

*@Deino *Then whats about that open door right above the IFR probe rod.
you can see that door on both accounts.


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## Deino

DANGER-ZONE said:


> *@Deino *Then whats about that open door right above the IFR probe rod.
> you can see that door on both accounts.




I think these are simply the upwards-swivelling doors for the avionics bays ! ... similar to this on a standard J-10A with its Typ-1473 radar.

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## chinazun

A new Chengdu-j10C upgraded variant would be further in developing phase which will be used by PLAAF
to conduct flight trials around 2020's. J10C was recently announced by Chengdu aircraft corporation, the primary operator is PLAAF. The engine would likely be based on the WS-10A fan engine but may be a 
upgraded version called WS-10B. The general chief designer is Mr. Yang Wei, the design director of Chengdu
aircraft corporation. Maiden flight is expected sooon.

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## Zarvan

chinazun said:


> A new Chengdu-j10C upgraded variant would be further in developing phase which will be used by PLAAF
> to conduct flight trials around 2020's. J10C was recently announced by Chengdu aircraft corporation, the primary operator is PLAAF. The engine would likely be based on the WS-10A fan engine but may be a
> upgraded version called WS-10B. The general chief designer is Mr. Yang Wei, the design director of Chengdu
> aircraft corporation. Maiden flight is expected sooon.


I thought it took maiden flight a year ago


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## Maarkhoor

any pics available


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## Deino

Hmmm .... strange ! What's the original source for this ?

As far as I understand the situation, the J-10C is indeed already flying, however still powered by the Russian AL-31FN ... so a maiden flight with the WS-10B similar to the J-10B prototype '1035' would be an explanation.

However a development phase until the 2020s seem a bit too long ... I expect the J-20 in sevice by then.

Deino

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## Maarkhoor



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## Deino

Surely not ! This would be de facto a new aircraft with a new structre and nearly no similarities to the J-10B. It would then be much wiser to speed up development of the J-31/FC-31. 

IMO that's an old - and not really good - fan-art !

Deino

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## Kompromat

Deino said:


> Surely not ! This would be de facto a new aircraft with a new structre and nearly no similarities to the J-10B. It would then be much wiser to speed up development of the J-31/FC-31.
> 
> IMO that's an old - and not really good - fan-art !
> 
> Deino

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## black-hawk_101

chinazun said:


> A new Chengdu-j10C upgraded variant would be further in developing phase which will be used by PLAAF
> to conduct flight trials around 2020's. J10C was recently announced by Chengdu aircraft corporation, the primary operator is PLAAF. The engine would likely be based on the WS-10A fan engine but may be a
> upgraded version called WS-10B. The general chief designer is Mr. Yang Wei, the design director of Chengdu
> aircraft corporation. Maiden flight is expected sooon.



Where J-10B and J-10BS


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## Deino

Horus said:


>




Yes indeed I would expect something more like this. However following the PLAAF-designations, it would be a J-10BS - a type I'm eagerly awaiting since years ! - or even a J-10CS.

Anyway any news - and especialyl a confirmation of the operational serial numbers - are highly wellcome ....

Deino

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## Secret Service

Abu Namr said:


>


which aircraft ???


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## Maarkhoor

secretservice said:


> which aircraft ???


j10 c


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## Deino

Nooooo ... this is only a lousy fan art !

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## Akasa

chinazun said:


> A new Chengdu-j10C upgraded variant would be further in developing phase which will be used by PLAAF
> to conduct flight trials around 2020's. J10C was recently announced by Chengdu aircraft corporation, the primary operator is PLAAF. The engine would likely be based on the WS-10A fan engine but may be a
> upgraded version called WS-10B. The general chief designer is Mr. Yang Wei, the design director of Chengdu
> aircraft corporation. Maiden flight is expected sooon.



Where did you get these rumors?

Does the J-10C in this context refer to the upgraded J-10B, which made its maiden flight in late 2013, or is it something completely new?

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## bdslph

source link pls 
the J10 c will be advance then but 2020 is tooo late

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## ChineseTiger1986

It will be mass produced with the WS-10X, not only for the prototype 1035 anymore.

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## SOHEIL

Nice

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## That Guy

Things seem to be progressing swimmingly for the Chinese engines.

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## soundwave1987

14t thrust？

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## Beast

soundwave1987 said:


> 14t thrust？


Yes, WS-10B or WS-10G

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## yesboss

Congrats . . . seems like China has finally resolved the last stumbling block . . . the jet engine. Any information/idea about the life-cycle and MTBO figures?

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## ChineseTiger1986

yesboss said:


> Congrats . . . seems like China has finally resolved the last stumbling block . . . the jet engine. Any information/idea about the life-cycle and MTBO figures?



About 1500 hours between the overhaul of the engine.

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## black-hawk_101

I have heard that J-10B and J-10BS are in production for PLAAF since 2014 and may be the export customer would be BD, Nigeria and may be some other African and South American countries too.

BD might buy an initial batch of 30 J-10B to replace the aging fleet of A-5C and boost it power. Later on a follow up order for 30 J-10C till 2020 or when available. But I think it's quite confirmed that BD is buying more used MiG-29s.

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## Akasa

black-hawk_101 said:


> I have heard that J-10B and J-10BS are in production for PLAAF since 2014 and may be the export customer would be BD, Nigeria and may be some other African and South American countries too.
> 
> BD might buy an initial batch of 30 J-10B to replace the aging fleet of A-5C and boost it power. Later on a follow up order for 30 J-10C till 2020 or when available. But I think it's quite confirmed that BD is buying more used MiG-29s.



J-10B production have been stopped in favor of the J-10C. There is no J-10BS.


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## black-hawk_101

SinoSoldier said:


> J-10B production have been stopped in favor of the J-10C. There is no J-10BS.


proof.


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## Stannis Baratheon

black-hawk_101 said:


> I have heard that J-10B and J-10BS are in production for PLAAF since 2014 and may be the export customer would be BD, Nigeria and may be some other African and South American countries too.
> 
> BD might buy an initial batch of 30 J-10B to replace the aging fleet of A-5C and boost it power. Later on a follow up order for 30 J-10C till 2020 or when available. But I think it's quite confirmed that BD is buying more used MiG-29s.


A-5C has been retired. And no, we aren't going for anymore Mig-29s. It costs too much to maintain and thus we have abandoned the purchase of further Mig-29s even though there were offers.

We will either buy the J-10B or J-10C whichever is available or go for Su-30MKK or Su-35 (far-fetched idea) after 2016. J-10 will have the advantage as it only uses 1 engine (less maintenance cost, cheaper and we can get better credit deals from China than Russia) and at this point we need 4th generation fighters as Mig-29s aren't our favourite ones and we prefer Mig-21 over it.

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## Akasa

black-hawk_101 said:


> proof.



There is no evidence that a twin-seater J-10B exists; hence my proof is your lack thereof.


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## black-hawk_101

Stannis Baratheon said:


> A-5C has been retired. And no, we aren't going for anymore Mig-29s. It costs too much to maintain and thus we have abandoned the purchase of further Mig-29s even though there were offers.
> 
> We will either buy the J-10B or J-10C whichever is available or go for Su-30MKK or Su-35 (far-fetched idea) after 2016. J-10 will have the advantage as it only uses 1 engine (less maintenance cost, cheaper and we can get better credit deals from China than Russia) and at this point we need 4th generation fighters as Mig-29s aren't our favourite ones and we prefer Mig-21 over it.


But BD should work with China in the form that will allow it to develop its own industry. Like local production of 50 J-10Bs and 50 J-10Cs. Though they can involve in J-10Cs development too.

But now BDAF needs:
50+ Platius
30-50 K-8s
30+ Yak-130
As these can be used for light attacks and are very effective too. Also license produce Turkish - Chinese - EU UAVs and UCAVs at BD.

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## kungfugymnast

black-hawk_101 said:


> proof.



If that news is true, the PLAAF just wanted C designation to match the F16C & rafale C for the additional avionics add on. Like superstition lucky number beliefs. Same goes to j11b, it was stopped after few wings entered production in favour of j11d with just a radar upgrade.

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## Akasa

kungfugymnast said:


> If that news is true, the PLAAF just wanted C designation to match the F16C & rafale C for the additional avionics add on. Like superstition lucky number beliefs. Same goes to j11b, it was stopped after few wings entered production in favour of j11d with just a radar upgrade.



There is no superstition with regards to lettering. The "C" designation was given simply due to the aircraft operating with a different set of subsystems.

150+ J-11B have been produced while the J-11D hasn't entered production yet.


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## Yukihime

black-hawk_101 said:


> But BD should work with China in the form that will allow it to develop its own industry. Like local production of 50 J-10Bs and 50 J-10Cs. Though they can involve in J-10Cs development too.
> 
> But now BDAF needs:
> 50+ Platius
> 30-50 K-8s
> 30+ Yak-130
> As these can be used for light attacks and are very effective too. Also license produce Turkish - Chinese - EU UAVs and UCAVs at BD.



an generation gap from A-5C to J-10B?
what a jump...

a deep-developed gen 3.5+ machine is not affordable nor practical for the countries in that list
will rather see L-15 or JF-17 in their squadrons within 15years, IF we have luck and they get a lot of money

in other word, if they are able to have them, they would have had filled up their fleets with Su-27/Mig-29 in the last 30 years... but had they ever been capable like that 

it's not about one-hundred dollars toy; even the j-10a is hundred-million RMB in net cost for PLAAF purchase
building up PLAAF fleet cost a lot and will continue to cost more; people behind that amount of money are usually not as foolish as outsiders had thought about...


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## black-hawk_101

Yukihime said:


> an generation gap from A-5C to J-10B?
> what a jump...
> 
> a deep-developed gen 3.5+ machine is not affordable nor practical for the countries in that list
> will rather see L-15 or JF-17 in their squadrons within 15years, IF we have luck and they get a lot of money
> 
> in other word, if they are able to have them, they would have had filled up their fleets with Su-27/Mig-29 in the last 30 years... but had they ever been capable like that
> 
> it's not about one-hundred dollars toy; even the j-10a is hundred-million RMB in net cost for PLAAF purchase
> building up PLAAF fleet cost a lot and will continue to cost more; people behind that amount of money are usually not as foolish as outsiders had thought about...


You will see that BD might go for 50 J-10B/J-10BS and Later on 50 J-10C/J-10CS.

or a other better option is to buy F-16 Block-20 about 100 of them with latest upgrades as Taiwan looking to shed it off. As this will create a remarkable fleet made up of aircraft of different regions and less prone to sanctions or any other issue.

50+ Platius
30-50 K-8s
30+ Yak-130
100 F-16 Block-20s

Though sound huge but BD needs it. As its becoming a regional power and has to protect it's assets from *INTERNAL* and some external threats too.


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## BoQ77

the guys martian2 claimed that J-10A ever locked Vietnam Su-30 10 times undetected. around 2010-2011
I wonder in which case that rumor could happen? 
Vietnam SU-30 locked by J-10, 10 times


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## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> the guys martian2 claimed that J-10A ever locked Vietnam Su-30 10 times undetected. around 2010-2011
> I wonder in which case that rumor could happen?
> Vietnam SU-30 locked by J-10, 10 times


I don't know whether is the truth, also ever read posts in Chinese military forums ... but no any official news just rumors.

Anyways u see, the Vietnam Airforce's Su-30mkv & Su-30mk2 not r some secret to PLAAF ... coz also operating 90+ Su-30mkk & Su-30mk2, Chinese familiar with Su30 fighter controls and e-communications. Another word, they understand where's the weakness of Su30 fighter.

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## Beast

cnleio said:


> I don't know whether is the truth, also ever read posts in Chinese military forums ... but no any official news just rumors.
> 
> Anyways u see, the Vietnam Airforce's Su-30mkv & Su-30mk2 not r some secret to PLAAF ... coz also equiped 90+ Su-30mkk & Su-30mk2, Chinese familiar with Su30 fighter controls and e-communications. Another word, they understand where's the weakness of Su30 fighter.


Vietnam armed forces never intend to challenge PLA, they do not have the resources nor technology to fight mighty China with a staggering USD 170billion military budget.

They buy a lot of sucide weapon if intention is to challenge PLA like Su-30 and Kilo sub which China now uses as spare target 

Those weapons are to achieved superiority over Thailand, Philippines and Indonesia, no way over mighty PLA.

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## Stannis Baratheon

black-hawk_101 said:


> But BD should work with China in the form that will allow it to develop its own industry. Like local production of 50 J-10Bs and 50 J-10Cs. Though they can involve in J-10Cs development too.
> 
> But now BDAF needs:
> 50+ Platius
> 30-50 K-8s
> 30+ Yak-130
> As these can be used for light attacks and are very effective too. Also license produce Turkish - Chinese - EU UAVs and UCAVs at BD.


We don't have the ability to make them at Bangladesh. It will take some time for that to happen but in the mean time we should buy at least 4 squadrons of J-10B/C
Yak-130 are good lightweight training and attack planes and 24 is good (we purchased 24 of it) and no need to purchase more. I would rather go for the K-8 for basic training and surveillance, as they are cheaper.

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## BoQ77

cnleio said:


> I don't know whether is the truth, also ever read posts in Chinese military forums ... but no any official news just rumors.
> 
> Anyways u see, the Vietnam Airforce's Su-30mkv & Su-30mk2 not r some secret to PLAAF ... coz also operating 90+ Su-30mkk & Su-30mk2, Chinese familiar with Su30 fighter controls and e-communications. Another word, they understand where's the weakness of Su30 fighter.



You could easily find that China asked Russia to replace Russian stuffs by Chinese made stuffs. So how China understand what not installed in their Su-30 ?
And Vietnam purchased Su-30 much later than China did. 
How you make sure they buy the old ones as China ever know?


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## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> You could easily find that China asked Russia to replace Russian stuffs by Chinese made stuffs. So how China understand what not installed in their Su-30 ?
> And Vietnam purchased Su-30 much later than China did.
> How you make sure they buy the old ones as China ever know?


What stuffs China need to ask Russia to replace ? AL-31 jet engine ? .... China can build jet fighter + modern cockpit + modern sub-systems, now only problem is the jet engine.

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## 55100864

i just can't believe why there are still some dumb chinese member spend time reply to trolls?

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## Beast

cnleio said:


> What stuffs China need to ask Russia to replace ? AL-31 jet engine ? .... China can build jet fighter + modern cockpit + modern sub-systems, now only problem is the jet engine.
> View attachment 258640
> 
> View attachment 258641
> 
> View attachment 258644
> 
> View attachment 258645


China dont even need to ask Russian for engine. Our Taihang engine is even better than AL-31






China can make a 100% domestic produced J-16 or J-11BS.

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## BoQ77

cnleio said:


> What stuffs China need to ask Russia to replace ?



Your question tells me that you didn't understand my post.


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## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> Your question tells me that you didn't understand my post.


Well ... ur question just show Vietnamese only know buying Russia aircraft others ZERO. Don't try to teach China how to build the fighter coz u understand nothing, dude.

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## BoQ77

Beast said:


> China can make a 100% domestic produced J-16 or J-11BS.



Btw, how many newer J-xx were built



cnleio said:


> Well ... ur question just show Vietnamese only know buying Russia aircraft others ZERO.





BoQ77 said:


> You could easily find that* China asked Russia to replace Russian stuffs by Chinese made stuffs*.



And if they are Chinese made, how China know how weak Russian made Vietnam Su-30?



cnleio said:


> the Vietnam Airforce's Su-30mkv & Su-30mk2 not r some secret to PLAAF ... coz also operating 90+ Su-30mkk & Su-30mk2, Chinese familiar with Su30 fighter controls and e-communications. Another word, t*hey understand where's the weakness of Su30 fighter*.



this must be corrected as they understand where's the weakness of Su-30 they *bought *( with Chinese components )

@Deino: this discussion started by the claim that J10 could lock wholly Russian made Su-30MK2 for Vietnam ten times in 2010. cnleio has no clue but added that China could know well about the weakness of Su-30 because they bought many from Russia too.
I added that China buy in 1999, and with China made electronic components installed not Russian. And Vietnam buy in 2008-2009. So I think cnleio's argument is illogical


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## Deino

*Can we please stick to the topic ! ... and even more no country-bashing !*

*All non-J-10-related posts will be deleted ...*

Deino


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## Beast

BoQ77 said:


> Btw, how many newer J-xx were built



If you go by J-XX, That included all domestic flanker made series, it will be at least more than 200 hundreds. J-11B, J-11BS, J-16, J-15, J-15S

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## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> You could easily find that China asked Russia to replace Russian stuffs by Chinese made stuffs.


Pls google C4ISR, any bigger Airforce like U.S / Russia / China etc has their own C4ISR combat data-links ... that all supported by domestic AWACS + Radars + "BeiDou" GPS satellites + Missiles + Communication devices + ECM devices + IFF devices. Ask Russia to replace Russian stuffs by Chinese made stuffs, modern Air War can't leave the China's C4ISR.

Does Russia stuffs installed on fighters support China's C4ISR combat data-links ? Absolutely not coz the C4ISR is top secret for each bigger Airforce, only supported by domestic devices.

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## BoQ77

How many except J11B because in my context, J11B isn't newer 



Beast said:


> If you go by J-XX, That included all domestic flanker made series, it will be at least more than 200 hundreds. J-11B, J-11BS, J-16, J-15, J-15S


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## Deino

*Tread temporarily closed due to no reaction !*

*All off-topic post will be deleted.*

Deino

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## cirr

Deino said:


> *Tread temporarily closed due to no reaction !*
> 
> *All off-topic post will be deleted.*
> 
> Deino



J-10C with WS-10G

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## Beast

cirr said:


> J-10C with WS-10G



Hope it can quickly equipped the J-10B and gives it 14000kn thrust.

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## Deino

I assume hat was the maiden flight !?


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## Beast

Deino said:


> I assume hat was the maiden flight !?



On J-10B/C, yes. But it was surely tested on a J-11B or J-11C with satisfactory result before being migrant to J-10B/C for flight test. I do not expect too much test time before officially induct in large number for operational J-10B/C since it has proven itself in J-11B/C.

Lin Zuoming, the AVIC Chairmain has comfirmed this engine is ready for operational.

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## kuge

looking forward to video...

looking forward to video....


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## Deino

Hmm ... what's a J-11C !?


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Hmm ... what's a J-11C !?


Sorry, typo error. Shall be J-11 D.

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## cirr

Deino said:


> Hmm ... what's a J-11C !?



J-15

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## Deino

Thanks ... by the way; no news about this new J-10C ?? No images ??

Deino


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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> Thanks ... by the way; no news about this new J-10C ?? No images ??
> 
> Deino


Number after 1050 is J10C


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## Deino

aliaselin said:


> Number after 1050 is J10C




Sorry, but maybe I misunderstand Your post. Do we know the number of this new prototype ?

I know '1021' (most likely the former '201') is the first J-10C, but the question is: Is the aircraft just flown in fact '1051' re-engined with that new "Taihang" or a new aircraft ?

As such to know the number would help a lot.

Deino


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## aliaselin

Deino said:


> Sorry, but maybe I misunderstand Your post. Do we know the number of this new prototype ?
> 
> I know '1021' (most likely the former '201') is the first J-10C, but the question is: Is the aircraft just flown in fact '1051' re-engined with that new "Taihang" or a new aircraft ?
> 
> As such to know the number would help a lot.
> 
> Deino


201 and 202 have been repainted to 1051 and 1052

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## Deino

aliaselin said:


> 201 and 202 have been repainted to 1051 and 1052




But do we have images of both !

As far as I know, the only image of '202' was a clearly photoshopped image of '201' and even more CAC has so far never used the "2" in its prototype series: it was always '1001' & '1003' for the J-10A, '1021' & '1023' for the J-10AS, '1031' & '1033' for the J-10B ... since the second aircraft was usually a structural airframe.

As such a '102' = '1052' would really surprise me !

Deino


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## m haris khan

Alex said:


> WS-10 was completed,no Al-31FN





Janbaz said:


> http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news095.htm
> 
> Extent of Russian involvement in the J-10 program is significant. In addition to providing the J-10 with the Al-31FN turbojet Russia also offered advanced multifunction radars, navigation and targeting systems, ECM suite, and missile warning and defense systems. Russian avionics manufacturer Phazotron offered China three different radars for the J-10 project. These include the N010 "Zhuk" ("Beetle") and the RP-35 "Zhemchug" ("Pearls"). The "Zhuk" radar ("Zhuk-8-II") has been selected by China for the F-8IIM upgrade program. Over a hundred of these radars were recently sold to China.
> 
> "Zhuk" is a large family of X-band (8 to 12.5 GHz) airborne multimode radars. The radar was originally developed for the MiG-29 tactical fighter but since then a multitude of versions have been produced for MiG-23, Su-27, F-8IIM and other aircraft. Later models of "Zhuk" offer look-up/look-down range-while-search and Track-While-Scan of 10 targets with simultaneous engagement of up to four (two targets for the "Zhuk-8-II"); vertical search; head-up display search; wide-angle search; boresight and automatic terrain avoidance for low-altitude combat operations; real beam ground-mapping; Doppler beam sharpening; synthetic aperture; display enlargement/freeze; TWS on four targets; ground target Moving Target Indicator (MTI)/tracker; air-to-surface ranging and navigation update. Weapons compatibility for "Zhuk" includes the Kh-31A, R-27R1, R-27T1, R-37E and RW-AE missiles. Later models of "Zhuk" such as the "Zhuk-F" offer detection range of up to 200km for a 5 m2 RCS targets with +/- 70 deg angular coverage and detection of 24 targets with simultaneous tracking of 8 targets. The radar weighs between 180 kg and 300 kg depending on the model.
> 
> The most likely candidate for the J-10's future radar is the Phazotron RP-35 "Zhemchug" which is an X-band radar with digital fire-control sensors and an electronically scanning phased-array antenna. The radar features a liquid-cooled traveling wave tube transmitter; an exciter; a three channel microwave receiver and programmable signal and data processors. All critical radar controls for "Zhemchug" are integrated into the aircraft's throttle grip and stick controller and radar data is displayed via the head-up and head-down displays allowing for one-man operation. This radar has an expanded air-to-ground capability and is compatible with a wide range of Russian air-to-air and air-to-ground munitions.
> 
> Another candidate is the Chinese version of the Israeli Elta EL/M-2035 multimode pulse Doppler fire control radar based on the original development by Elta Electronics Industries - a subsidiary of Israel Aircraft Industries Electronics Group. This radar is used on the South African Denel (Atlas) "Cheetah" fighter - a development of the Dassault "Mirage III". The Elta EL/M-2035 radar is based on the 2021B version used by the IAI Kfir-C2 fighter. The radar offers a range of 46km for a 5 m2 RCS target, five air-to-air modes (automatic target acquisition, boresight, look-down, look-up, and track-while-scan) and two air-to-ground modes (beam-sharpened ground mapping and terrain avoidance and sea-search). Originally the Elta EL/M-2035 was developed for the "Lavi" program and after the program's cancellation the radar was offered for export.



Is Pakistan getting J 10B or Not
What Happen to the deal or it is dead???????????????


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## Deino

Does anyone have a larger image of this one ???

Seems as if the typical "supporting rods" above this J-10's intake were modified or even removed.

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## Indus Falcon

m haris khan said:


> Is Pakistan getting J 10B or Not
> What Happen to the deal or it is dead???????????????


Jee "Inalillah" parh lijiyae.

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## m haris khan

Indus Falcon said:


> Jee "Inalillah" parh lijiyae.


ANY SOURCE


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## Deino

Please one 5-digit number ! Just give it to me ...


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## Deino

... another one ... given their typical ferry-configuration I assume they are ready for delivery !

So come on Adam Y. ... just tell me that number !

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## cirr

Into the 3rd regiment。

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## Deino

cirr said:


> Into the 3rd regiment。




May I ask how confirmed this is ?? ... I'm more than eagerly awaiting this information !

So, 3. AR means 1. Fighter Division at Anshan and they are replacing the former J-8Fs at Anshan making the 1. FD with the 1. AR = J-11B/BS, 2. AR = J-10A/AS and now 3. AR = J-10B a formidable fighter unit !

Deino


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## Deino

October 1. in CHina already !!!

And now the question is: is this a J-10C .. or "only" a block 2 J-10B !??


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## HRK

Deino said:


> Does anyone have a larger image of this one ???
> 
> Seems as if the typical "supporting rods" above this J-10's intake were modified or even removed.
> 
> View attachment 259656

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## Deino

Thanks ... so this small one was again psed !

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## BoQ77

F.O.X said:


> J-10
> . About 50~70 examples are expected to have been delivered by 2006. These planes are powered by a Russian-made AL-31FN turbofan engine, while on *later production variants this will be replaced by Chinese indigenous WS-10A Ã¢â¬ÅTaiHangÃ¢â¬Â turbofan.*
> .................
> The J-10A single-seat fighter entered service with the PLAAF in 2003, with 50~70 examples delivered so far. The production continues at a rate of 2~3 units per month. _*The two-seat variant J-10B joined the service In 2006*_. *The aircraft may become available for export market by 2007~08.*
> ..................
> Shenyang-based AVIC1 Aviation Engine Institute has been developing the indigenous WS-10A turbofan engine, which is also known as Ã¢â¬ËTaihangÃ¢â¬â¢ in its commercial name. Reportedly based on some AL-31F technologies, the engine is rated at 73.5kN dry and 110kN with afterburning.
> 
> *The WS-10A development was completed in December 2005 and the engines may be ready for batch production soon*. It *was reported that the later variants of the J-10* and J-11 fighters *will be powered by the WS-10A.*
> 
> j10history_02large | SinoDefence
> 
> Regards
> Champ



In 2006 it has been said: 
1. J-10 would be with WS-10A. * How many J-10 with WS-10A ?*
2. J-10B joined the service in 2006 and exports available by 2007-2008. *How many J-10B in service after 10 years? How many exported ?*
3. WS-10A development was completed in Dec 2005. *How many aircrafts armed with WS-10A until now after 10 years?*

*Can you help?*


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## Deino

@ BoQ77 !

You really grab out an old report from 2006 (!!!) that made assumptions that were surely completely wrong ? But for what ... even more if You know the answer ??

For all question the answer is !"O" but with certain comments or reasons not known then.

1. delayed due to technical reasons ... WS-10A got priority for the J-11B only.

2. Don't know why. most likely simply due to PLAAF's high demand on that bird itself and simply wrong assumptions.

3. again that was for WS-10A for the Flanker ... WS-10B with revised gearbox wasn't mature, reliable or whatever not before now it seems (J-10B '1035' flew in 2011 only).

Therefore IMO the author simply made several wrong assumptions and conclusions ...but raising these points now looks very much like a provocation only.

Deino

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## BoQ77

Deino said:


> @ BoQ77 !
> 
> You really grab out an old report from 2006 (!!!) that made assumptions that were surely completely wrong ? But for what ... even more if You know the answer ??
> 
> For all question the answer is !"O" but with certain comments or reasons not known then.
> 
> 1. delayed due to technical reasons ... WS-10A got priority for the J-11B only.
> 
> 2. Don't know why. most likely simply due to PLAAF's high demand on that bird itself and simply wrong assumptions.
> 
> 3. again that was for WS-10A for the Flanker ... WS-10B with revised gearbox wasn't mature, reliable or whatever not before now it seems (J-10B '1035' flew in 2011 only).
> 
> Therefore IMO the author simply made several wrong assumptions and conclusions ...but raising these points now looks very much like a provocation only.
> 
> Deino



The report is in the page 1 of this thread and there're some facts ( not all assumption ). For example, WS-10A development completed in 2005. Did they do nothing with it?
And* you surprised me to answer "0" to all question*.
From what I heard here or there, for all 3 questions, Answer should be SOME, not "0".
Please explain more details, ok?
1. J-10A still doesn't use WS-10A ?
2. J-10B wasn't still in service ?
3. .... "0" too ?



WebMaster said:


> The Chengdu J-10 (Jian-10, or F-10 in its export name) is a single-engine, all-weather, high-performance multirole fighter aircraft capable of both air-to-air and air-to-ground roles. The aircraft was designed by Chengdu-based 611 Aircraft Design Institute and manufactured by Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAIC). The aircraft is available in single-sear fighter (A variant) and tandem two-seat fighter-trainer (B variant) versions. The aircraft first flew in 1998 and entered the PLA Air Force (PLAAF) service in 2003. About 50~70 examples are expected to have been delivered by 2006. These planes are powered by a Russian-made AL-31FN turbofan engine, while on later production variants this will be replaced by Chinese indigenous WS-10A &#8220;TaiHang&#8221; turbofan. The total number of production may be as many as 300.
> 
> The J-10 development programme, also known as &#8220;Project 8610&#8221;, officially began in 1986 to counter the fourth-generation fighters such as MiG-29 and Su-27 then being introduced by the Soviet Union. The aircraft was initially designed as an air-superiority fighter aircraft but changing requirements later shift the development towards a multirole fighter. It was widely speculated that the J-10&#8217;s initial design was based on the cancelled Israeli Aerospace Industry (IAI) Lavi lightweight fighter. Despite the denial by both Chinese and Israelis, the high resemblance of the two aircraft appears to support this claim. Russia provided key assistance to the aircraft development after 1990 by helping Chengdu engineers integrate the Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan engine into the aircraft.
> 
> The J-10 is single-engine fighter with a rectangle belly air intake, low-mounted delta wings, and front canard wings. The airframe possesses a large vertical tail, as well as canards placed near the cockpit. The air intake is rectangular in shape, and is located beneath the fuselage. The aircraft is the first Chinese-made fighter to be fitted with a large two-piece bubble canopy to provide 360 degrees of visual coverage for the pilot. If necessary, the aircraft could be fitted with an in-flight refuelling probe.
> 
> The J-10 fighter represents the highest achievement of the Chinese aviation industry today. The aircraft achieves high manoeuvrability by using a large amount of composite materials in its fuselage and wing structures to reduce the its overall weight and thus increase the thrust-to-weight ratio. The aircraft design is aerodynamically unstable, to provide a high level of agility, low drag and enhanced lift. The pilot controls the aircraft through a computerised digital, quadruplex (four-channel) &#8220;fly-by-wire&#8221; (FBW) system, which provides artificial stabilisation and gust elevation to give good control characteristics throughout the flight envelope. The aircraft&#8217;s cockpit avionics and fire-control system are also believed to be superior to those of other Chinese indigenous fighter aircraft.
> 
> In the late 1990s, the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence estimated that the J-10 could be as manoeuvrable as the U.S. F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. With its advanced &#8220;fly-by-wire&#8221; system, the J-10 may have a better aerodynamic performance compared to the Russian Su-27, which still uses the conventional control method. The Hong Kong-based newspaper Sing Tao Jih Pao reported on 29 May 2004 that during an aerial war game conducted by the PLAAF, the J-10 fighter has beaten the Su-27 fighter in all three rounds of &#8220;dogfight&#8221; in the mid-air.
> 
> The J-10A single-seat fighter entered service with the PLAAF in 2003, with 50~70 examples delivered so far. The production continues at a rate of 2~3 units per month. The two-seat variant J-10B joined the service In 2006. The aircraft may become available for export market by 2007~08.
> 
> View attachment 51972
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great overview on the J-10/F-10 Aircraft:
> 
> http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news095.htm


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## Beast

BoQ77 said:


> The report is in the page 1 of this thread and there're some facts ( not all assumption ). For example, WS-10A development completed in 2005. Did they do nothing with it?
> And* you surprised me to answer "0" to all question*.
> From what I heard here or there, for all 3 questions, Answer should be SOME, not "0".
> Please explain more details, ok?
> 1. J-10A still doesn't use WS-10A ?
> 2. J-10B wasn't still in service ?
> 3. .... "0" too ?


 WS-10A will not used on J-10B becos PLAAF wants super cruise capabilities for J-10B. That will be accomplished by WS-10B which produces 14000KN thrust. WS-10B has finalised design and passed all test recently and is in process of mass production. It will take few months later for J-10B to equipped with WS-10B engine.

WS-10A(13200KN) is an engine designed mainly for the flanker series like J-11B or J-11BS or even the naval J-15. They had tested on one J-10B but PLAAF decided it need a more powerful engine like WS-10B.

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## BoQ77

Beast said:


> WS-10A will not used on J-10B becos PLAAF wants super cruise capabilities for J-10B. That will be accomplished by WS-10B which produces 14000KN thrust. WS-10B has finalised design and passed all test recently and is in process of mass production. It will take few months later for J-10B to equipped with WS-10B engine.
> 
> WS-10A(13200KN) is an engine designed mainly for the flanker series like J-11B or J-11BS or even the naval J-15. They had tested on one J-10B but PLAAF decided it need a more powerful engine like WS-10B.



That didn't explain why WS-10A wouldn't on J10A
So instead of using WS-10A, China decided to continue the import of AL-31 before WS-10B is mature ? during a decade 

It tells nothing but WS-10A failed. Right? 
I'm keen to know what achieved during 2005-2015.


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## kungfugymnast

BoQ77 said:


> That didn't explain why WS-10A wouldn't on J10A
> So instead of using WS-10A, China decided to continue the import of AL-31 before WS-10B is mature ? during a decade
> 
> It tells nothing but WS-10A failed. Right?
> I'm keen to know what achieved during 2005-2015.



Only earlier 1st generation ws10 engine failed as china wasn't that rich yet at that time with high corruption, haven't gotten much knowledge and used low quality material. Only when China became successful and rich onwards, they took quality heavily and willing to spend on best materials. Yes, you can say Chinese only started to go for quality ws10a late.

That is main reason why the earlier batch j10a still use proven AL31 engine while the quality perfected ws10a concentrated on replacing the existing earlier j11 fitted with old 1st generation ws10 engines. Every j10a requires 1x expensive AL31 imported engine is more cost effective than refitting every earlier j11 fitted with 2x earlier generation ws10.

This also explains why china j11 production didn't increase much before and during perfected ws10a became available. Shenyang focus on replacing all existing j11 that still use old ws10 engines with the perfected ws10a.

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## Beast

BoQ77 said:


> That didn't explain why WS-10A wouldn't on J10A
> So instead of using WS-10A, China decided to continue the import of AL-31 before WS-10B is mature ? during a decade
> 
> It tells nothing but WS-10A failed. Right?
> I'm keen to know what achieved during 2005-2015.



You purposely cherry pick on things you only want to see and ignore the others? WS-10A is considered failure just becos it didn't install on J-10A? I think I do not need to remind you the J-11B, J-11BS , J-16 are all installed with WS-10A engine. I have mentioned it many times and you seems to have selective mind, are you? How can a engine considered failure when more than at least a hundred has installed for PLAAF fighter?

J-10A production has ended and WS-10A is too late to be installed on the old model, plus PLAAF are extremely caution despite WS-10A has proves itself so far onboard twin engine J-11 flanker series fighter. Single engine fighter still do have the possible risk of mishap. Now the WS-10B has come out. The big thrust do helps the new J-10B in achieveing the super cruise target and will need some months before going up on the squadron of J-10B. Test has already started and will not be long before installing for squadron. I am sure WS-10B has long tested onboard J-11B with very positive result before going on J-10B.

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## kuge

Beast said:


> You purposely cherry pick on things you only want to see and ignore the others? WS-10A is considered failure just becos it didn't install on J-10A? I think I do not need to remind you the J-11B, J-11BS , J-16 are all installed with WS-10A engine. I have mentioned it many times and you seems to have selective mind, are you? How can a engine considered failure when more than at least a hundred has installed for PLAAF fighter?
> 
> J-10A production has ended and WS-10A is too late to be installed on the old model, plus PLAAF are extremely caution despite WS-10A has proves itself so far onboard twin engine J-11 flanker series fighter. Single engine fighter still do have the possible risk of mishap. Now the WS-10B has come out. The big thrust do helps the new J-10B in achieveing the super cruise target and will need some months before going up on the squadron of J-10B. Test has already started and will not be long before installing for squadron. I am sure WS-10B has long tested onboard J-11B with very positive result before going on J-10B.
> 
> View attachment 262122


is that true al31-fn-m1 will mate with j-10b for some time to come?
al31-fn-m1 produces higher thrust at 13.5 ton compare with al31-fn at 12.5 ton.


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## Beast

kuge said:


> is that true al31-fn-m1 will mate with j-10b for some time to come?
> al31-fn-m1 produces higher thrust at 13.5 ton compare with al31-fn at 12.5 ton.



New WS-10B produced 14000KN which is the minimal require for J-10B to supercruise. 14000KN thrust is comfirmed by Lin zuoming, Chairman of AVIC during an interview. AL31 M1 engine are just intermittent engine for the time being until WS-10B goes up.

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## BoQ77

kungfugymnast said:


> Just explain to @BoQ77 nicely. The Sino~Vietnam war was main cause that ruined Chinese~Vietnam relationship that led you into argument with him. Most Chinese were against the attack on Vietnam at that time. Vietnamese are still our brothers today, the misunderstand should be solved.
> 
> The ws10b will gradually replace existing j10a's AL31 engine when they have reached major service interval and at the same time being refitted avionics and upgraded to j10c. The same goes to existing J11A, they are refitted with ws10a and upgraded to j11d gradually.



So Deino surprised me to say that ZERO of WS-10A used. See his answer to my 3 questions. He said "0" to all question.
That make me curious and ask him to explain in details.



Deino said:


> @ BoQ77 !
> 
> For all question the answer is !"O" but with certain comments or reasons not known then.
> 
> Deino





BoQ77 said:


> In 2006 it has been said:
> 1. J-10 would be with WS-10A. * How many J-10 with WS-10A ?*
> 2. J-10B joined the service in 2006 and exports available by 2007-2008. *How many J-10B in service after 10 years? How many exported ?*
> 3. WS-10A development was completed in Dec 2005. *How many aircrafts armed with WS-10A until now after 10 years?*
> 
> *Can you help?*



And tell me, whether China did apply the 5 years plan to measure the development and give direction for next. 10 years means 2x 5 years plans, if you don't know what achieved in the previous plan, how you adjust the next 5 years plan?
And actually, the progress looks so slow, if we face directly the figures.

You could answer one by one of my 3 questions while opposing the Deino's answer when he said "0" to all of my question including "how many aircrafts with WS-10A". Your post proved that "J-10B in service in 2006" statement is totally wrong.
The report was posted in 2006 by the PDF Admin, See the page 1.

J-10A built quite long, so I think it's time for replace old Al-31 engine by something. What 's candidate?
China can't simply put J-10A into the trashcan, right?
How many J-11B used WS-10A? Why WS-10A isn't for J-10A as replacement of Al-31 while it was designed to do so at initial phase? Lack of productivity?


Beast said:


> ... remind you the J-11B, J-11BS , J-16 are all installed with WS-10A engine. I have mentioned it many times and you seems to have selective mind, are you? How can a engine considered failure when more than at least a hundred has installed for PLAAF fighter?
> *J-10A production has ended and WS-10A is too late to be installed on the old model,* plus PLAAF are extremely caution despite WS-10A has proves itself so far onboard twin engine J-11 flanker series fighter. Single engine fighter still do have the possible risk of mishap. Now the WS-10B has come out. The big thrust do helps the new J-10B in achieveing the super cruise target and *will need some months before going up on the squadron of J-10B*. Test has already started and will not be long before installing for squadron. I am sure WS-10B has long tested onboard J-11B with very positive result before going on J-10B.


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## Beast

BoQ77 said:


> So Deino surprised me to say that ZERO of WS-10A used. See his answer to my 3 questions. He said "0" to all question.
> That make me curious and ask him to explain in details.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And tell me, whether China did apply the 5 years plan to measure the development and give direction for next. 10 years means 2x 5 years plans, if you don't know what achieved in the previous plan, how you adjust the next 5 years plan?
> And actually, the progress looks so slow, if we face directly the figures.
> 
> You could answer one by one of my 3 questions while opposing the Deino's answer when he said "0" to all of my question including "how many aircrafts with WS-10A". Your post proved that "J-10B in service in 2006" statement is totally wrong.
> The report was posted in 2006 by the PDF Admin, See the page 1.
> 
> J-10A built quite long, so I think it's time for replace old Al-31 engine by something. What 's candidate?
> China can't simply put J-10A into the trashcan, right?
> How many J-11B used WS-10A? Why WS-10A isn't for J-10A as replacement of Al-31 while it was designed to do so at initial phase? Lack of productivity?



Yes, the WS-10A production is not very high at the moment. AVIC maybe be on hold now to see which version(WS-10B or C) is deemed the best for big mass production plus the fact, they are many spare AL-31 lying around.

Plus a production line usually takes many years to complete the production of certain product (for example a run of 10years) to satisfy employment of technician and to ensure non overproduction and over run of cost.

WS-10A engine production line.
















Highly precise CNC machinery making WS-10A blade at 0.001mm






J-11BS flying with WS-10A engine

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## kungfugymnast

BoQ77 said:


> So Deino surprised me to say that ZERO of WS-10A used. See his answer to my 3 questions. He said "0" to all question.
> That make me curious and ask him to explain in details.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And tell me, whether China did apply the 5 years plan to measure the development and give direction for next. 10 years means 2x 5 years plans, if you don't know what achieved in the previous plan, how you adjust the next 5 years plan?
> And actually, the progress looks so slow, if we face directly the figures.
> 
> You could answer one by one of my 3 questions while opposing the Deino's answer when he said "0" to all of my question including "how many aircrafts with WS-10A". Your post proved that "J-10B in service in 2006" statement is totally wrong.
> The report was posted in 2006 by the PDF Admin, See the page 1.
> 
> J-10A built quite long, so I think it's time for replace old Al-31 engine by something. What 's candidate?
> China can't simply put J-10A into the trashcan, right?
> How many J-11B used WS-10A? Why WS-10A isn't for J-10A as replacement of Al-31 while it was designed to do so at initial phase? Lack of productivity?



You want to know how many j11 fitted with proper ws10a, count the numbers of j11b/bs/d, j15, j16 in PLAAF and PLAN active service currently. 

As for number of J10 with WS10B engine, you can look at how many j10C available at the moment.


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## Deino

@ BoQ77 I really do not understand what You try to conclude ... other to make a fuss out of an old report when there were much higher expectations in the WS-10 ... for me it looks like the pure wish to troll.



BoQ77 said:


> The report is in the page 1 of this thread and there're some facts ( not all assumption ). For example, WS-10A development completed in 2005. Did they do nothing with it?
> And* you surprised me to answer "0" to all question*.
> From what I heard here or there, for all 3 questions, Answer should be SOME, not "0".
> Please explain more details, ok?
> 1. J-10A still doesn't use WS-10A ?
> 2. J-10B wasn't still in service ?
> 3. .... "0" too ?


 


BoQ77 said:


> That didn't explain why WS-10A wouldn't on J10A
> So instead of using WS-10A, China decided to continue the import of AL-31 before WS-10B is mature ? during a decade
> 
> It tells nothing but WS-10A failed. Right?
> I'm keen to know what achieved during 2005-2015.


 

Again and like Beast already explained ... however one point si simply missing:

1. YES, WS-10A was ready but had some severe shortcomings in its early days. The first J-11B unit for example (1. AR, 1. FD at Anshan) had to replace their WS-10A back to AL-31F. Mentioned are reliability issues, mentioned were that SAC wasn't able to manufactur as many WS-10 as desired, many of them had a very low TBO .... and so on.

2. WS-10A is purely for the Flanker-series - and I really don't understand why so many either don't want to understand or like to ignore it - since this tye has its gearbox blaced on to as on the original AL-31F. In fact You simply can't fit a WS-10A on a J-10, period regardless what a few think, say, hope or even report. In the same way a J-10A's AL-31FN can never be used on a J-11 since the FN has the gearbox on the bottom.

in short:
AL-31F and WS-10A for the Flanker-series due to gearbox on top of the engine
AL-31FN and WS-10B for the J-10-series due to gearbox on the bottom of the engine

3. Another issue was that the Flanker is a twin-engined type, whereas the J-10 has only one engine: As such the PLAAF requested - besides gearbox on the bottom and most likely higher thrust - a much improved reliability ... maybe this wasn'r granted for the WS-10B or the AL-31FN was superior in this regard.

4. Even if delivering a slightly higher thrust in reheat, the WS-10A/B is said to have a slightly lower response to accelearte (notr sure how to explain correctly) or the AL-31-series has a faster response to reach full thrust.

5. Ergo due to all reasons above... the PLAAF/PLANAF decided to use the WS-10A in their Flankers first and to retain the reliable AL-31FN for the J-10. Here we have to note that with the second batch of WS-10A we haven't seen any newbuild Flanker coming off SAC's production line since then without the WS-10A. As such to call the Taihang a failiure is simply stupid, plain wrong and only shows that the one who insists in that version has no idea.

6. In the meantime - by 2010/11 - the WS-10B was actually ready and therefore tested in the 5. J-10B prototype numbered '1035' .... it was most likely a success, however the PLAAF demanded again higher thrust and improved performances due to enable the AESA. Here again delays occured ... until now as it seems.

As such back to Your question and my answer:

1. YES, J-10A does not use WS-10A ... simply since it can't. You can't mount a Formula I's motor into a VW Golf. period and that's not the engine's fault.

2. J-10B in service: here were are discussiong. IMO it is in service at least with the FTTC and most likely IMO also in one so far unknown regiment. Others don't agree with me here ... but anyway they are all flying on AL-31FN series 3.

3. WS-10B on J-10B/C: so for onyl one WS-10B tested on J-10B '1035' and following the latest reports one more improved WS-10B (some say WS-10G) on that new J-10C. Operationally so for is none.

So ... I really hope this hyping of "WS-10 is a failiure" can end now.

Deino

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## Deino

Since this question on TVC is specifically related to the J-20 I moved all post to the J-20 tread .... please continue there !

Deino

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## samlove




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## Maarkhoor

samlove said:


>


There are no reports in Media of this crash even post is a Hoax
@Icarus @Slav Defence


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## samlove

Ifrit said:


> There are no reports in Media of this crash even post is a Hoax
> @Icarus @Slav Defence


do u ever got any news of aircraft crash ever through chinese media


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## Maarkhoor

samlove said:


> do u ever got any news of aircraft crash ever through chinese media


And the pics above you post RAW give it you, don't be moron all screen shots from Chinese media.


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## samlove

Ifrit said:


> And the pics above you post RAW give it you, don't be moron all screen shots from Chinese media.


then why asking, telling me post is hoax ,if u can read.



BoQ77 said:


> Can you write in brief, what happen ?


even i only have this pic so wait for some time , more will get out

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## Maarkhoor

samlove said:


> then why asking, telling me post is hoax ,if u can read.
> 
> 
> even i only have this pic so wait for some time , more will get out


Years old screen shots even not confirmed the type of plane may reporting Indian Sukhoi crash.


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## samlove

Ifrit said:


> Years old screen shots even not confirmed the type of plane may reporting Indian Sukhoi crash.


sure whatever ur mind cooks


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## BoQ77

Does it help?
_If it is true, this is the third accident of J-10 in flight tests in less than 1 year since last November accident. This time it loaded with missiles. Plus 1 J10S crashed in May with 2 KIA._
=====================
*Pilot survives after Chinese military jet crashes into hillside on training flight *

PUBLISHED : Monday, 12 October, 2015, 1:35pm
UPDATED : Monday, 12 October, 2015, 1:35pm

Liu Zhen

zhen.liu@scmp.com





The pilot's parachute at the crash site. Photo: CCTV

A Chinese air force pilot parachuted to safety from low altitude moments before his fighter aircraft crashed into a hillside, state media reported.

He was taking part in a night training exercise when his aircraft suffered* an engine failure*, but he managed to steer his fighter away from two nearby residential areas before ejecting from the plane, state television reported.

The aircraft had rapidly fallen from an altitude of 3,000 metres to 1,500 metres before the control tower ordered the pilot to bail out.




Debris at the scene of the accident. Photo: CCTV

The plane crashed into a hill and the pilot, Li Tong, was said to be suffering from spinal injuries after his parachute landing.

*READ MORE: PLA fighter jet on possible test flight crashes into building in Chengdu*

The report did not say when or where the accident happened.

The pilot ejected from the aircraft about 350 metres above the ground, according to the report.

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## samlove

Ifrit said:


> Years old screen shots even not confirmed the type of plane may reporting Indian Sukhoi crash.


 here ur sukhoi 
PLA fighter jet on possible test flight crashes into building in Chengdu | South China Morning Post


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## cnleio

F-22 crashed too, ur meaningless argument about the J-10 should stop there ... past 10 years China totally built 260+ J-10A/S fighters for PLAAF, several crash prove nothing. When China building more J-10A/S/B/C fighters and numbers over 300x, such crash is unavoidable in the future the only way is learning the lesson to avoid mistake again.

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## 55100864

RAW footage from the cockpit of the crashed J10, and the pilot interview.




dose this make our indian and viet members sleep better at night???

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## BoQ77

why so many shocked with the pure news? they react as someone tried to insult them.
No. This is a new aircraft under developing.
That's why there's sticky thread for it.
And no sticky thread for J8.

A new design but hull loss accidents happened very often, 3 in less than 1 year, 2 pilots killed, it's critical.

Something wrong with it, as a result the flights of similar ones would be halted. The development would be delayed.

Due to secret we didn't get the investigation results for those accidents. But This one was named ENGINE.


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## sheik

BoQ77 said:


> why so many shocked with the pure news?



How many? I was not shocked at all.
Well, if you have only 30 planes, crashing 3 may be a news. LOL

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## BoQ77

Again, they blamed Russian engine that make the J-10 down.
PLAAF should stop using Russian engines, remove all current installed ones, and replace by domestic engines.

If not, there'll be some more crash.



> *Russian engine caused crash of J-10B fighter, says Duowei*
> *Staff Reporter 2014-11-19 08:53 (GMT+8)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The burning wreck of the J-10B in Chengdu (Internet photo)
> 
> The crash of a J-10B fighter equipped with a Russian-built AL-31FN engine in Chengdu in Sichuan province on Nov. 15 suggests that it is necessary for China to speed up the development of its own engines, according to Duowei News, a media outlet operated by overseas Chinese.
> 
> China is currently unable to design and produce an adequate engine for its advanced fighters. To solve this problem, the Shenyang Liming Aircraft Engine Company's WS-10 Taihang engines have been used for some of the J-10B fighters of the PLA Air Force. However, China has to import Lyulka-Saturn AL-31FN turbofan engines from Russia to power the majority of its J-10 fighters before Taihang engines become reliable enough to be used throughout the fleet.
> 
> Foreign media reported in 2010 that China is replacing its AL-31FN engines with Taihang engines, however, China ordered 123 additional AL-31FN engines from Russia soon after the report was published. Since the Russian engines are crucial for the development of Chinese aviation industries as more and more advanced fighters are being produced, Russia opened a new production plant to fulfill the needs of the PLA Air Force.



*PLA pilot hailed as hero for ditching J-10 away from cities*
*Staff Reporter 2015-10-13 15:45 (GMT+8)*




A Chengdu J-10 fighter. (Internet photo)

A J-10 fighter from the PLA's Shenyang Military Region crashed during a training flight on Oct. 12 with the pilot delaying his bailout in an attempt to ensure he did not let his plane go down in an urban area, according to China's state broadcaster CCTV.

The pilot, Li Tong, is the chief of staff of an undisclosed fighter regiment of the Shenyang Military Region. He said his Russian-built AL-31 engine suddenly lost power at an altitude of between 3,400 and 3,500 meters on the night of Oct. 12. The control tower ordered him to eject if he was unable to regain control of the aircraft above 1,000 meters.

Realizing that he was between two undisclosed urban regions, however, Li did not eject until he had dropped to an altitude of 351 meters, the CCTV report said, praising him for his courage.


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## Beast

BoQ77 said:


> Again, they blamed Russian engine that make the J-10 down.
> PLAAF should stop using Russian engines, remove all current installed ones, and replace by domestic engines.
> 
> If not, there'll be some more crash.
> 
> 
> 
> *PLA pilot hailed as hero for ditching J-10 away from cities*
> *Staff Reporter 2015-10-13 15:45 (GMT+8)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Chengdu J-10 fighter. (Internet photo)
> 
> A J-10 fighter from the PLA's Shenyang Military Region crashed during a training flight on Oct. 12 with the pilot delaying his bailout in an attempt to ensure he did not let his plane go down in an urban area, according to China's state broadcaster CCTV.
> 
> The pilot, Li Tong, is the chief of staff of an undisclosed fighter regiment of the Shenyang Military Region. He said his Russian-built AL-31 engine suddenly lost power at an altitude of between 3,400 and 3,500 meters on the night of Oct. 12. The control tower ordered him to eject if he was unable to regain control of the aircraft above 1,000 meters.
> 
> Realizing that he was between two undisclosed urban regions, however, Li did not eject until he had dropped to an altitude of 351 meters, the CCTV report said, praising him for his courage.


Yes, they are doing that right now. And can Rome be build in a day? Can 300 J-10A replaced with domestic engine in a single day? No. It will take sometime. In a year or 2, we will see domestic engine equipped J-10 on most plane.

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## kuge

Beast said:


> Yes, they are doing that right now. And can Rome be build in a day? Can 300 J-10A replaced with domestic engine in a single day? No. It will take sometime. In a year or 2, we will see domestic engine equipped J-10 on most plane.


isnt the gearbox position different in al31 & ws10?


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## Beast

kuge said:


> isnt the gearbox position different in al31 & ws10?


Then just fixed the gearbox. As simple as that. The gearbox is not the core technology or critical challenging problem.

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## Deino

By the way it seems as if that crash occurred already on September 19 !

歼10坠毁飞行员跳伞后步行半小时 借电话自救|歼10飞行员|歼10坠毁_新浪新闻

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## Total Destruction

SinoSoldier said:


> J-10B production have been stopped in favor of the J-10C. There is no J-10BS.


*I think it's still in production as china requested AL-31FM1 engines to J-10 type B in the last few months , others A&s use AL-31FN*


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## Deino

There is no FM1 ... only a FN Series 3.


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## Total Destruction

Deino said:


> There is no FM1 ... only a FN Series 3.


there is actually ..
Take-off Magazine : Salut continues to upgrade AL-31F

The AL-31F-M1 passed its official trials in 2006 and has been ordered by the Defence Ministry since 2007 to equip Sukhoi Su-27SM fighters.


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## Deino

YES, but the FM is only suitable for a Flanker (due to its gearbox location) and not compatible to a J-10A. as such there is no version equivalent to the FM a J-10 can use.

1. an AL-31F for the Flanker-series (= gearbox on top) ... + right a WS-10A also Flanker






2. an AL-31FN for the J-10A/AS (= gearbox on the bottom)






3. for completeness ... a WS-10B for the J-10B/C (= gearbox on the bottom)

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## j20blackdragon



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## BoQ77

Beast said:


> Yes, they are doing that right now. And can Rome be build in a day? Can 300 J-10A replaced with domestic engine in a single day? No. It will take sometime. In a year or 2, we will see domestic engine equipped J-10 on most plane.



So since when the J-10A start to change to domestic engines?



j20blackdragon said:


> View attachment 264488



strange angle, nice shot !!!


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## Akasa

Total Destruction said:


> *I think it's still in production as china requested AL-31FM1 engines to J-10 type B in the last few months , others A&s use AL-31FN*



Production has supposedly shifted to the J-10C, which also uses the Al-31FN.


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## Zarvan

SinoSoldier said:


> Production has supposedly shifted to the J-10C, which also uses the Al-31FN.


You want to tell me production of J-10 C has begun @Deino @Beast @cirr


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## BoQ77

SinoSoldier said:


> Production has *supposedly *shifted to the J-10C, which also uses the Al-31FN.


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## ChineseTiger1986

The golden tinted canopy looks really nice.

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## Muhammad Omar

isn't this J-10B?

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## ChineseTiger1986

Muhammad Omar said:


> isn't this J-10B?



It is more advanced than the J-10B, either the J-10B+ or J-10C.

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## Maarkhoor

*PLA's J-10C may be able to match US and EU counterparts*
*The J-10C — the upgrade version of China's J-10 fighter designed by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group — may be able to catch up with the American F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and surpass most of its European counterparts, according to the Beijing-based Sina Military Network.

China is still unable to fully compete against the United States, Russia and France in developing 4.5-generation fighters, but the advanced fighters are important for the People's Liberation Army Air Force and Navy Air Force to fill the gap before fifth-generation stealth fighters — such as the J-20 and J-31 — are ready to enter service.

Many of China's neighbors have equipped their military forces with 4.5-fighters since 2005 when the Republic of Korea Air Force received its first 60 F-15K Slam Eagle. Singapore began to receive F-15SG Strike Eagles in 2008, while Australia got its F/A-18E/F in 2009. India and Malaysia have also purchased the Russian-built Su-30MKI and Su-30MKM. Since 2012, Russia has also deployed Su-30SM and Su-35s to the Chinese border.
PLA's J-10C may be able to match US and EU counterparts｜WCT





*

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## Basel

What new 'C' variant have?

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## Jlaw

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> It is more advanced than the J-10B, either the J-10B+ or J-10C.


 if J10C is in testing what does that mean for B? Are they mass producing it?

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## ChineseTiger1986

Basel said:


> What new 'C' variant have?



The new WS-10B engine, the new AESA radar, and more advanced composite materials.

Maybe also with the improved DSI design?



Jlaw said:


> if J10C is in testing what does that mean for B? Are they mass producing it?



The production line for the J-10B has been halted, now it is all about the J-10C.

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## Deino

No it is indeed the new J-10C we've seen making its maiden flight a few weeks ago !

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## silent hawk

Congratulations to China

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## Keel

It looks more like a shark than J-15 - the Flying Sharks on Liaoning

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## Muhammad Omar

man i really wish to see these in PAF

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## cirr

Muhammad Omar said:


> isn't this J-10B?



It is J-10C which has all the stuffs of a 5th gen fighter barring stealth and supersonic cruise。

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## Beast

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The new WS-10B engine, the new AESA radar, and more advanced composite materials.
> 
> Maybe also with the improved DSI design?
> 
> 
> 
> The production line for the J-10B has been halted, now it is all about the J-10C.


J-10B is a failure. It suffer a premature death even before it can gained operational. Fortunately, PLAAF top brass is smart to quickly stop this J-10B and go for better 100% made in China J-10C series fighter.

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## kungfugymnast

Keel said:


> It looks more like a shark than J-15 - the Flying Sharks on Liaoning



This claimed j10c photo looks fake. Look carefully the photo seems to be cropped and edited out of rafale. The bottom rear part is quite flat and wide as if it has 2 engines. The area where air intakes supposed to be was cropped away.



Beast said:


> J-10B is a failure. It suffer a premature death even before it can gained operational. Fortunately, PLAAF top brass is smart to quickly stop this J-10B and go for better 100% made in China J-10C series fighter.



J10b is not failure. Just that ws10b engine is underway, the j10b fitted with new engine will eventually renamed j10c.

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## Beast

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The golden tinted canopy looks really nice.
> 
> View attachment 264810


The paint scheme suggest, it could be clear for production and operation soon.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Beast said:


> The paint scheme suggest, it could be clear for production and operation soon.



This engine is definitely earlier than the engine used by the J-20.

Since the specs of the J-20 engine hasn't been revealed yet.

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## Beast

cirr said:


> It is J-10C which has all the stuffs of a 5th gen fighter barring stealth and supersonic cruise。


It can supercruise. With 14000KN Thrust, it can match Typhoon and Rafale as truly 4.5th fighter.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> This engine is definitely earlier than the engine used by the J-20.
> 
> Since the specs of the J-20 engine hasn't been revealed yet.



One thing for sure, it will not go operation with a foreign engine. PLAAF top brass has make it very clear. For those scum bag hanjian general who advocate continue using AL-31 engine shall be shot. The PLAAF needs to take bold decision and not afraid to lose a few planes and pilots to allow Taihang engine to flourish in PLAAF.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Beast said:


> It can supercruise. With 14000KN Thrust, it can match Typhoon and Rafale as truly 4.5th fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> One thing for sure, it will not go operation with a foreign engine. PLAAF top brass has make it very clear. For those scum bag hanjian general who advocate continue using AL-31 engine shall be shot. The PLAAF needs to take bold decision and not afraid to lose a few planes and pilots to allow Taihang engine to flourish in PLAAF.



China will soon replace all AL-31 engine from both PLAAF and PLAN.

Recently, another J-10A was crashed because of the engine failure, and this has speeded up the domestic engine replacement.

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## BoQ77

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> China will soon replace all AL-31 engine from both PLAAF and PLAN.
> 
> Recently, another J-10A was crashed because of the engine failure, and this has speeded up the domestic engine replacement.



Is there any possibility like this? J-10 must wait for new engines.
Scenario 1:
1. Before China imported AL-31 for their aircraft
2. Time's up
3. Domestic engines are not ready
4. Al-31 lifespan stretched too much and broke. 
>>> accident
Scenario 2:
1. China decided to replace a few J-10 with domestic engines. More new aircraft wait for new engines for ex-work.
2. Instead of rumour on the media, It's not Al-31 but domestic engine on crashed aircrafts
Domestic engine still show their unstable quality and cause accidents.

If that's what really happen, China has to halt J-10 flight, deployment and import more new Al-31

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## terranMarine

yes China needs to import AL-31, you can sleep well tonight

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## cirr

terranMarine said:


> yes China needs to import AL-31, you can sleep well tonight



I know Viets are boring。I didn't know Viets were so boring。


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## BoQ77

If one of above scenario is true, buying Russian engines helps those fighters dont have to ground for a while.



terranMarine said:


> yes China needs to import AL-31, you can sleep well tonight


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## terranMarine

BoQ77 said:


> If one of above scenario is true, buying Russian engines helps those fighters dont have to ground for a while.


you are a thinker indeed, i like that


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## kuge

j10b & taihang
世界军事论坛 - 实拍：歼-10B量产型配国产太行引擎空中首秀

it also mentioned j20 is using al-31f


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## Beast

kuge said:


> j10b & taihang
> 世界军事论坛 - 实拍：歼-10B量产型配国产太行引擎空中首秀
> 
> it also mentioned j20 is using al-31f


Thats look more like a reporter opinion rather than real facts.

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## Deino

A Special gift for @ Beast!

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## Beast

Deino said:


> A Special gift for @ Beast!
> View attachment 265928
> View attachment 265931


Thanks, looks more like production batch than testing prototype.

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## Indus Falcon

Deino said:


> A Special gift for @ Beast!
> View attachment 265928
> View attachment 265931


Chinese engine?

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## Akasa

Indus Falcon said:


> Chinese engine?



Yes, the 14-ton WS-10B.

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## cirr

Looks like China is saving a few hundreds of millions USD a year

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## BoQ77

cirr said:


> Looks like China is saving a few hundreds of millions USD a year



For what?


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## cirr

The followings are the three main differences between 10B and 10C evident to your eyes

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> The followings are the three main differences between 10B and 10C evident to your eyes



Will the J-10Bs be retrofitted with AESA radars?


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## Beast

SinoSoldier said:


> Will the J-10Bs be retrofitted with AESA radars?


J-10B already fitted with AESA but the system maybe not as advance as C. But most obvious will be the engine.

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## Deino

But regarding the engine ... Just Look at the typical inner structure and compare this one with an AL-31 and the J-20's engine:ergo, the J-20 cannot use à Ws-10!

View attachment 266000
View attachment 266001


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## black-hawk_101

I think now J-10A along with J-10B might arrive soon as Russian will allow the Chinese to export their engines with J-10s. I am hoping this:
50 J-10A
50 J-10B
50 J-10C by 2020

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## Beast

black-hawk_101 said:


> I think now J-10A along with J-10B might arrive soon as Russian will allow the Chinese to export their engines with J-10s. I am hoping this:
> 50 J-10A
> 50 J-10B
> 50 J-10C by 2020


No Russian involved. We have our own domestic WS-10B/G 14000KN for J-10C. Why need Russia?



Deino said:


> But regarding the engine ... Just Look at the typical inner structure and compare this one with an AL-31 and the J-20's engine:ergo, the J-20 cannot use à Ws-10!
> 
> View attachment 266000
> View attachment 266001


That is unlikely. The Chinese will not be so dumb to make incompatible with their own domestic engine.

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## Total Destruction

Deino said:


> YES, but the FM is only suitable for a Flanker (due to its gearbox location) and not compatible to a J-10A. as such there is no version equivalent to the FM a J-10 can use.
> 
> 1. an AL-31F for the Flanker-series (= gearbox on top) ... + right a WS-10A also Flanker
> 
> View attachment 264403
> 
> 
> 2. an AL-31FN for the J-10A/AS (= gearbox on the bottom)
> 
> View attachment 264404
> 
> 
> 3. for completeness ... a WS-10B for the J-10B/C (= gearbox on the bottom)
> 
> View attachment 264405


*Gearbox on the bootom in AL-31F-M1*


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## kungfugymnast

BoQ77 said:


> For what?



Cheaper to buy own made WS10B and maintain. Less reliance on Russia for spare parts. China could build more J-10C due to more cost effective, easier & faster to build singe engine small fighters than twin engine large fighters. J-10C could now go mass production replacing the obsolete J-7. By then, there will be enough fighters to patrol the country.

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## Indus Falcon

SinoSoldier said:


> Yes, the 14-ton WS-10B.


Congratulations, this is no doubt, is a very big achievement!!!

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## monitor

black-hawk_101 said:


> I think now J-10A along with J-10B might arrive soon as Russian will allow the Chinese to export their engines with J-10s. I am hoping this:
> 50 J-10A
> 50 J-10B
> 50 J-10C by 2020


If Pakistan goes for j-10 then obviously will goes for B/C version.


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## Muhammad Omar

monitor said:


> If Pakistan goes for j-10 then obviously will goes for B/C version.



are you waiting for Pakistan to Buy First??

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## lcloo

monitor said:


> If Pakistan goes for j-10 then obviously will goes for B/C version.


No, Pakistan will not get J-10B/C, they will get J-10P.

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## black-hawk_101

monitor said:


> If Pakistan goes for j-10 then obviously will goes for B/C version.


PAF will buy all the version as I am sure that J-10A might be end of its production. Though PAF had previously planned to limit its fleet to about 350-400 max. But now, the condition is totally different and we PAF needs might go beyond 500 Fighters. So:
150: J-10A-B-C
150: J-11I-II-III
50: F-16 Block-52s
120: F-16 Block-15s MLU-3/MLU-4 (31PAF+28USAF+16Jordan+45Jordan)

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## 帅的一匹

We shall produce hundreds of J10b/c as long as the WS10 engine get tweaked up.

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## kungfugymnast

black-hawk_101 said:


> PAF will buy all the version as I am sure that J-10A might be end of its production. Though PAF had previously planned to limit its fleet to about 350-400 max. But now, the condition is totally different and we PAF needs might go beyond 500 Fighters. So:
> 150: J-10A-B-C
> 150: J-11I-II-III
> 50: F-16 Block-52s
> 120: F-16 Block-15s MLU-3/MLU-4 (31PAF+28USAF+16Jordan+45Jordan)



PAF would get j10c equivalent using ws10b engine and aesa radar. You'll need that to counter su30mki, mig29k, mirage2000 and tejas. 

Having mixture of both US made and China made fighters is wise choice. Both have different capabilities and effectiveness against different targets.

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## BoQ77

Why there's still noT any J10A sold to PAF? 
so far.


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## Viper0011.

black-hawk_101 said:


> PAF will buy all the version as I am sure that J-10A might be end of its production. Though PAF had previously planned to limit its fleet to about 350-400 max. But now, the condition is totally different and we PAF needs might go beyond 500 Fighters. So:
> 150: J-10A-B-C
> 150: J-11I-II-III
> 50: F-16 Block-52s
> 120: F-16 Block-15s MLU-3/MLU-4 (31PAF+28USAF+16Jordan+45Jordan)



The $$$ doesn't grow on trees....and its wasn't in the Banks either till the past two years. So trust me, no one would buy older blocks like J-10A and J-11 A and B. Pakistan will get J-10C (if they decide to get those), and J-11D.


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## Muhammad Omar

BoQ77 said:


> Why there's still noT any J10A sold to PAF?
> so far.



cause PAF doesn't want it yet.. maybe in Future... or maybe they are looking for J-10C instead of J-10A


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## Deino

Guss ... Can we please concentrate on the j-10 itself ? Dreaming how many the PAF should acquire Even if cannot afford them is related to the PAF-section at best.

Deino


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## BoQ77

Muhammad Omar said:


> cause PAF doesn't want it yet.. maybe in Future... or maybe they are looking for J-10C instead of J-10A



recent news, PAF get 8 more F-16
and latest news F-16V debut 

Any affect?


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## Muhammad Omar

BoQ77 said:


> recent news, PAF get 8 more F-16
> and latest news F-16V debut
> 
> Any affect?



Recent news ... USA is set to sell 8 F-16's but still i'll wait to see PAF want/accept it or not...


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## black-hawk_101

Viper0011. said:


> The $$$ doesn't grow on trees....and its wasn't in the Banks either till the past two years. So trust me, no one would buy older blocks like J-10A and J-11 A and B. Pakistan will get J-10C (if they decide to get those), and J-11D.


Its not the case. China can give it on the production cost to PAF easily. I am sure they can sell J-10s to PAF.


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## Muhammad Omar

black-hawk_101 said:


> Its not the case. China can give it on the production cost to PAF easily. I am sure they can sell J-10s to PAF.



The question is not that they can or they wouldn't but the real question is PAF looking to buy those??

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## kungfugymnast

BoQ77 said:


> Why there's still noT any J10A sold to PAF?
> so far.



J10a is using russian AL31F engine. PAF buying it will not get to enjoy cheap parts and overall selling price of the fighter. The j10c with ws10b engine, overall selling price and maintenance cost are cheaper. Also, there'll be facilities for PAF to assemble the j10c locally reducing cost further



BoQ77 said:


> recent news, PAF get 8 more F-16
> and latest news F-16V debut
> 
> Any affect?



F16c block 50/52 is quite good. Better if PAF getting block 60 f16e/f. If PAF gotten itself into air skirmish with IAF over Kashmir conflict, having both US fighters and China fighters would give them advantage over IAF su30mki

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## Viper0011.

black-hawk_101 said:


> Its not the case. China can give it on the production cost to PAF easily. I am sure they can sell J-10s to PAF.



NO ONE gives the other party anything at the "production cost". If the world was JUST that friendly!!! Brothers now a days don't give the other one their inheritance. China is a separate country. Discounted price? yes!! Long term loans with lower interest rate? Yes!! But "production cost"???? Hell No!!

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## black-hawk_101

I think then PAF should go for loan - same like they did for the JF-17s.


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## monitor

* PLA Navy Chengdu J-10 aerial refueling *

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## Muhammad Omar

monitor said:


> * PLA Navy Chengdu J-10 aerial refueling *



sweet


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## cirr



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## Akasa

cirr said:


>



Would be nice to see the J-10B/C with conformal tanks.


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## Muhammad Omar

When the CFT is going to be installed any date


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## cirr

J-10Cs

207






213

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## volatile

Is engine life cycle issue resolved on J10 b/c as it would be quite potent if it is resolved.


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## Deino

To admit, I'm a bit confused... so far I thought it was clear: All Batch 01 aircraft are AL-31FN series 3 powered, and as such they are J-10B ... the Batch 02 aircraft are similar but at least two were tested with the WS-10B .... but now it's getting confusing again (at least for me) ! For batch 03 the AESA-equipped J-10C most likely with the WS-10B could be expected.

But if You compare the details, then this Batch 02 aircraft is for sure an AL-31FN Series 3-powered one ... but is it a J-10B or J-10C ??

It clearly has the new antenna on the tail (but is this enough to call it a C ?) but it lacks the one under the nose behind the radome (so still a B ??) ... and the other one on the spine can't be seen. Really strange.

At least Huitong calls it a J-10C:



> The latest images (November 2015) indicated that the production of 02 batch continues. These are thought to be the improved *J-**10C*s with VLOC antennas installed on top of the vertical tailfin and carrying the new PL-15 AAMs.



http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.de/p/fighters-ii.html#J-10B

As such it would be interesting to know the c/n of the latest AL-31FN birds just delivered to a unit as well as the numbers for these two WS-10B-powered birds.

Deino


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## Beast

Deino said:


> To admit, I'm a bit confused... so far I thought it was clear: All Batch 01 aircraft are AL-31FN series 3 powered, and as such they are J-10B ... the Batch 02 aircraft are similar but at least two were tested with the WS-10B .... but now it's getting confusing again (at least for me) ! For batch 03 the AESA-equipped J-10C most likely with the WS-10B could be expected.
> 
> But if You compare the details, then this Batch 02 aircraft is for sure an AL-31FN Series 3-powered one ... but is it a J-10B or J-10C ??
> 
> It clearly has the new antenna on the tail (but is this enough to call it a C ?) but it lacks the one under the nose behind the radome (so still a B ??) ... and the other one on the spine can't be seen. Really strange.
> 
> At least Huitong calls it a J-10C:
> 
> 
> 
> http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.de/p/fighters-ii.html#J-10B
> 
> As such it would be interesting to know the c/n of the latest AL-31FN birds just delivered to a unit as well as the numbers for these two WS-10B-powered birds.
> 
> Deino


Remember, one thing. They are not painted in operational light grey PLAAF scheme yet.


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## Deino

Beast said:


> Remember, one thing. They are not painted in operational light grey PLAAF scheme yet.




And how does this matter ?? We have seen several - altogether more than 53 - unpainted J-10Bs and finally several of them also in PLAAF grey, however evertime with their serials psed out. So these are not different to all the previous batch 01 aircraft: We first spot them in yellow primer with their serials in red, we see them later ín grey and even later with therir serials ... so what.

Or do You want again to assume that the PLAAF is still producing now batch 02 aircraft only to retire them or let them take dust at CAC until the WS-10B is mature ?

Come on ...

Deino


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## Beast

Deino said:


> And how does this matter ?? We have seen several - altogether more than 53 - unpainted J-10Bs and finally several of them also in PLAAF grey, however evertime with their serials psed out. So these are not different to all the previous batch 01 aircraft: We first spot them in yellow primer with their serials in red, we see them later ín grey and even later with therir serials ... so what.
> 
> Or do You want again to assume that the PLAAF is still producing now batch 02 aircraft only to retire them or let them take dust at CAC until the WS-10B is mature ?
> 
> Come on ...
> 
> Deino


The AL-31FN engine is install just to test out the system working and airframe so as to speed up the whole process and save a hundred hours of lifespan of WS-10B. Once ready for operation in PLAAF scheme. The AL-31FN will be swap out with WS-10B.

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## Deino

Not really sure ... why do the batch 01 J-11B still use their AL-31F if they could even more easily be replaced by the WS-10A ?? ... and even more why not use them - they were all paid for, they are reliable ... - ???


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## Viper0011.

SinoSoldier said:


> Would be nice to see the J-10B/C with conformal tanks.



Will any of you guys post a J-10C full missile load-out using all hard point please?

@Deino @cirr : Do you have the above pics I've requested?



BoQ77 said:


> recent news, PAF get 8 more F-16
> and latest news F-16V debut



8 is the first order, there may be 18 more. I don't know about the V configuration, more than likely it would be block 60 similar to UAE's. They are ok with Pakistan getting these planes (they paid for the advanced R&D). They have a big PAF contingent working for the UAE-AF at any given time so this would only help them avoid further training.

Plus one to two squadrons of -16's are also on the cards. One is almost certain, second one, if no Chinese or European option is exercised by early next year.

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## Deino

Viper0011. said:


> Will any of you guys post a J-10C full missile load-out using all hard point please?
> 
> @Deino @cirr : Do you have the above pics I've requested?



Sorry, but we just only have a few images of the C-model, ... so far we are not even sure where the B ends and the C starts ... in consequence images of a fully operational and completely armed are something You should ask for in about a few months at best.

Deino

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## Muhammad Omar

What's the Main difference between J-10B and J-10C? looks same from exterior


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Not really sure ... why do the batch 01 J-11B still use their AL-31F if they could even more easily be replaced by the WS-10A ?? ... and even more why not use them - they were all paid for, they are reliable ... - ???


WS-10A needs to be use for J-11B or J-11BS. China bought large number of AL-31engine and they shan't waste it. They are used for J-11A or testing out of new operational airframe to save more Taihang engine. J-10B/C needs higher thrust WS-10B. AL-31FN cannot satisfy it's need.


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## Deino

That's completely bare any logic !

If China bought large stocks of AL-31F for their Flankers and uses them regardless the WS-10A is already available, why should they ignore the also bought AL-31FN for the J-10B and wait for the WS-10B even more since the Series 3 has a higher thrust ??

Honestly, You are obsessed by that "idea" that the WS-10A/B is the one and only holy grail for China's fighter similar to the latest Star Wars statement: The J-11B uses Taihang, the J-10B must use a Taihang and the J-20 too has to use a Taihang. Taihang is strong in my family ?!


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## Blue Marlin

all 3 j10/b prototypes
1031




1035
i think this is powered by the ws10/b engine








1034

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## Beast

Deino said:


> That's completely bare any logic !
> 
> If China bought large stocks of AL-31F for their Flankers and uses them regardless the WS-10A is already available, why should they ignore the also bought AL-31FN for the J-10B and wait for the WS-10B even more since the Series 3 has a higher thrust ??
> 
> Honestly, You are obsessed by that "idea" that the WS-10A/B is the one and only holy grail for China's fighter similar to the latest Star Wars statement: The J-11B uses Taihang, the J-10B must use a Taihang and the J-20 too has to use a Taihang. Taihang is strong in my family ?!


Chinese always do thing prudently. AL-31FN for J-10B is just a backup in case WS-10B cannot materialise. Even C919 parts has redundant supplier in case one supplier failed to delivered.

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## Blue Marlin

Beast said:


> Chinese always do thing prudently. AL-31FN for J-10B is just a backup in case WS-10B cannot materialise. Even C919 parts has redundant supplier in case one supplier failed to delivered.


what your trying to say is that the j10b is built with a high level of redundancy.


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## Beast

Blue Marlin said:


> what your trying to say is that the j10b is built with a high level of redundancy.





Blue Marlin said:


> what your trying to say is that the j10b is built with a high level of redundancy.


Everything needs a backup in case first option failed. But J-10B/C is build in mind to compete with Typhoon and Rafale.

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## cirr



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## volatile

Full bubble canopy could do wonders for this baby .


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## cirr



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## Shotgunner51

cirr said:


>




Hmmmmmm ... interesting stories in the details ...

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## cirr

K2S’s J-10B 10631  @Deino

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## Deino

That made my day !!


cirr said:


> K2S’s J-10B 10631  @Deino




NICE, that really made my day, since it confirms Beast's claims to be wrong ! The J-10B is in operational service regardless if it will wait for the Taihang.

However it also opens the next riddle: First it confirms the 2. Division, which was long rumoured, however it also confirms, that not the 4. Regiment at Foshan (a J-8-unit) received the J-10B, but the 5. Regiment replacing the "older" J-10A models. Would be interesting to know, who then receives them !?

Deino

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## Beast

Deino said:


> That made my day !!
> 
> 
> 
> NICE, that really made my day, since it confirms Beast's claims to be wrong ! The J-10B is in operational service regardless if it will wait for the Taihang.
> 
> However it also opens the next riddle: First it confirms the 2. Division, which was long rumoured, however it also confirms, that not the 4. Regiment at Foshan (a J-8-unit) received the J-10B, but the 5. Regiment replacing the "older" J-10A models. Would be interesting to know, who then receives them !?
> 
> Deino


It is not operation. It is just doing routine testing of airframe and system. After that, it will swap out the engine with taihang WS-10B before fully joining the squadron.
So far, no J-10B has reported participate in any exercise or patrol. They only stuck at CAC centre to do testing. None of them is operational yet.

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## Deino

If You prefer to stick to that opinion ... just hold on !


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## j20blackdragon



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## Deino

Two news ... first of all an operational - sorry Beast, for You a "non-operational"  - J-10B with its serials psed !






... and second: here are 16 J-10s seen at Hotan (N37°02.2′E079°52.1′) ... is this a new regular unit or a forward deployment only ?








Blue Marlin said:


> all 3 j10/b prototypes
> 1031
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1035
> i think this is powered by the ws10/b engine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1034



You missed '1033' !

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## Deino

in the current Air International ...

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## IrbiS

Deino said:


> in the current Air International ...
> 
> View attachment 275960



Should I post in high resolution?

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## Deino

If You like ...


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## IrbiS



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## cirr

J-10C _223_

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## Deino

cirr said:


> J-10C _223_




Interesting ! So at least 53 batch 01 aircrafts + now at least 23 batch 02 aircrafts = 76 J-10Bs flying; enough for three fully equipped regiments.

Even more, 2-13 was spotted exactly one month ago ... not sure if one can conclude the production rate, but at least 10 J-10Bs since then.

Deino


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## hk299792458

Deino said:


> Interesting ! So at least 53 batch 01 aircrafts + now at least 23 batch 02 aircrafts = 76 J-10Bs flying; enough for three fully equipped regiments.
> 
> Even more, 2-13 was spotted exactly one month ago ... not sure if one can conclude the production rate, but at least 10 J-10Bs since then.
> 
> Deino



This is my follow-up of the aircrafts from Batch 2 with dates that they are spotted for the first time, it might help us undirectly to assess the production rate.






By the way, I would like to request help from all of you to complete my photos collection for all those serial missing in my list, I'll hight appreciate your help.

Thank you in advance.

Henri K.

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## Deino

hk299792458 said:


> This is my follow-up of the aircrafts from Batch 2 with dates that they are spotted for the first time, it might help us undirectly to assess the production rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, I would like to request help from all of you to complete my photos collection for all those serial missing in my list, I'll hight appreciate your help.
> 
> Thank you in advance.
> 
> Henri K.




Thanks a lot ... I will try what I find !

By the way did You get my e-Mail-address ??

All the best,
Deino


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## hk299792458

Deino said:


> Thanks a lot ... I will try what I find !
> 
> By the way did You get my e-Mail-address ??
> 
> All the best,
> Deino



Yes, I got it. Will reply you soon.

Henri K.


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## Deino

Did I miss some more differences between the J-10B and J-10C ??

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## barbarosa

i think if china govt provide transit route to nepal it will be very profitable for both countries.

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## Deino

barbarosa said:


> i think if china govt provide transit route to nepal it will be very profitable for both countries.




Sorry, but seems to be the wrong forum ! ... or how is it related to the J-10 ???


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## Gunther Chavarria

Deino said:


> Interesting ! So at least 53 batch 01 aircrafts + now at least 23 batch 02 aircrafts = 76 J-10Bs flying; enough for three fully equipped regiments.
> 
> Even more, 2-13 was spotted exactly one month ago ... not sure if one can conclude the production rate, but at least 10 J-10Bs since then.
> 
> Deino


 Deino is there anyway you can provide me a rough estimate of how many j10s of all kinds are service with both the pla and plan.I know that is a lot to ask but you seem very knowledgeable. Thanks


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## 帅的一匹

Please don't tell those strangers the specific data or critical info if they ask, it threatens the national security.

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## Deino

Gunther Chavarria said:


> Deino is there anyway you can provide me a rough estimate of how many j10s of all kinds are service with both the pla and plan.I know that is a lot to ask but you seem very knowledgeable. Thanks




Thanks ! ... to admit I once made a list of all J-10A/AS produced sorted by production batch ... but then lost to continue.

Another maybe simply but not completely correct way could be to simply summarise the operational units: a regular PLAAF-unit has 24 single seater + 4 trainer, while the PLANAF unit has 16 J-10A and 8 J-10AS ... also 28 aircraft per unit.

With now the following units for the J-10A/AH/AS/ASH/AY/SY:

9 PLAAF regiments or brigades = 28x 9 = 252
1 PLANAF regiment = 1x 9 = 9
1 test-regiment FTTC = 9 identified ac. = 9
1 demo-team Ba Yi = 12 ac. = 12

= altogether 282 J-10A/AH/AS/ASH/AY/SY ... excluding prototypes and pre-serials

For the J-10B (assumed):

1 test-regiment FTTC = evtl. also 9 identified ac. = 9
1 PLAAF regiment = 24 ac (since no J-10BS exists)
+ now more build at CAC

= altogether 76 ac. spotted (enough for nearly two more regiments) ... excluding prototypes and pre-serials


So all J-10s together we have more than 358 ... again excluding prototypes and pre-serials.

Deino



wanglaokan said:


> Please don't tell those strangers the specific data or critical info if they ask, it threatens the national security.



Oh come on ! everyone with a little math can do that ... that's not "national security" !

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## Gunther Chavarria

Deino said:


> Thanks ! ... to admit I once made a list of all J-10A/AS produced sorted by production batch ... but then lost to continue.
> 
> Another maybe simply but not completely correct way could be to simply summarise the operational units: a regular PLAAF-unit has 24 single seater + 4 trainer, while the PLANAF unit has 16 J-10A and 8 J-10AS ... also 28 aircraft per unit.
> 
> With now the following units for the J-10A/AH/AS/ASH/AY/SY:
> 
> 9 PLAAF regiments or brigades = 28x 9 = 252
> 1 PLANAF regiment = 1x 9 = 9
> 1 test-regiment FTTC = 9 identified ac. = 9
> 1 demo-team Ba Yi = 12 ac. = 12
> 
> = altogether 282 J-10A/AH/AS/ASH/AY/SY ... excluding prototypes and pre-serials
> 
> For the J-10B (assumed):
> 
> 1 test-regiment FTTC = evtl. also 9 identified ac. = 9
> 1 PLAAF regiment = 24 ac (since no J-10BS exists)
> + now more build at CAC
> 
> = altogether 76 ac. spotted (enough for nearly two more regiments) ... excluding prototypes and pre-serials
> 
> 
> So all J-10s together we have more than 358 ... again excluding prototypes and pre-serials.
> 
> Deino
> 
> 
> 
> Oh come on ! everyone with a little math can do that ... that's not "national security" !


Thanks Deino, don't worry I'm not a spy. Lol. In fact I want the Chinese to get military strong. I hope when production is over they will build at least 1000 j 10's. Cheers.


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## Deino

Two more redy for delivery or already during delivery ... sadly again with ps'ed serails.

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## BoQ77

*Chinese J-10 fighter aircraft crashed in Zhejiang*
Dec 17, 2015

A People’s Liberation Army Naval Air Force (PLANAF) from the 4th Division, 12th Air Regiment, crashed this evening in Zeguo town, Taizhou city, Zhejiang Province. Both pilots ejected safely.









'


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## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> *Chinese J-10 fighter aircraft crashed in Zhejiang*
> Dec 17, 2015
> 
> A People’s Liberation Army Naval Air Force (PLANAF) from the 4th Division, 12th Air Regiment, crashed this evening in Zeguo town, Taizhou city, Zhejiang Province. Both pilots ejected safely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> '


I read news, it's about 11th J-10 crash in China since J-10A and J-10S joint PLAAF. This one is J-10HS, Navy J-10 two-seat fighter. China equiped 300+ J-10A(S) fighters, those years crashed 11x ... seems no bad, isn't it?

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## BoQ77

cnleio said:


> I read news, it's about 11th J-10 crash in China since J-10A and J-10S joint PLAAF. This one is J-10HS, Navy J-10 two-seat fighter. China equiped 300+ J-10A(S) fighters, those years crashed 11x ... seems no bad, isn't it?



I didn't say it's bad or no. 
So the news is true?


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## cnleio

BoQ77 said:


> I didn't say it's bad or no.
> So the news is true?


Yes, true ... a J-10HS gone, but two pilots ejected safely.

@BoQ77 I think now they r enjoying their tea in office ... unhappy

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## Stag112

Good the pilots survived. We can do all the fighting we want on the internet but I am glad their families are relieved!

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## Beast

Its the fault of the Russian engine. When can the top level people make the decision not to continue use AL-31FN engine even we have a lot of spares? Those spares are not worth using. All shall switch to domestic Taihang engine.

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## BoQ77

yes. the pilots are precious



Beast said:


> Its the fault of the Russian engine. When can the top level people make the decision not to continue use AL-31FN engine even we have a lot of spares? Those spares are not worth using. All shall switch to domestic Taihang engine.



you don't need any report by pilot to start blaming Russian engine?


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## Beast

BoQ77 said:


> you don't need any report by pilot to start blaming Russian engine?



Do you dare to bet with me?

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## BoQ77

Beast said:


> Do you dare to bet with me?



so it's your guess?

let assume all of accident by Russian engines, as safety principle, they must stop all flights of J10 with Russian engine and investigate and check for preventive acts.

That's the common procedure. But it seems that there's not any


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## Beast

BoQ77 said:


> so it's your guess?


There is no need to guess, its always the Russian engine fault. It can be also a good thing too. Those hanjian aero engineer and PLAAF commander who advocate using Russian AL-31engine will lose further support as more Russian engine problem occur. President Xi shall come in and put a ban on using Russian AL-31FN engine. Even it will cost money to replace those Russian engines.

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## GoldenRatio1618

in some cases pilots even if they eject safely they have been killed in enemy area or threats on ground same like happen with jorden pilot captured and killed by isis and russian piolot killed by ground terrorests. idea came how is it if the aircraft designer they design the pilot seat like jetman pack and after ejecting pilot safely escape from the area or remaining in the air start jetman engine and ecape towards its country or to safe palace so that 100% chance of survival of piolot is possible in this way.

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## BoQ77



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## neytirilover

BoQ77 said:


>


Another crash, said to be Navy J-10S, reason unknown. Both pilots ejected safely.

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## The Eagle

hi...
good news that the pilots are safe.

no doubt the plan has been built in large numbers though can be called matured for its stage but still having such problem means its the time to evaluate strictly whether the problem caused by the avionics, frame etc or engine only. hope things will come-up and this beautiful bird will be more safe for pilots in future.

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## nang2

The Eagle said:


> hi...
> good news that the pilots are safe.
> 
> no doubt the plan has been built in large numbers though can be called matured for its stage but still having such problem means its the time to evaluate strictly whether the problem caused by the avionics, frame etc or engine only. hope things will come-up and this beautiful bird will be more safe for pilots in future.


I am sure the postmortem evaluation will be done thoroughly. Every crash is an invaluable learning opportunity.

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## 帅的一匹

That's why the pilot shall have jet pack with them.

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## aliaselin

@Deino
Can you guess the story behind the picture?

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## cloneman

aliaselin said:


> View attachment 281920
> 
> @Deino
> Can you guess the story behind the picture?


oh my god,j-10b/c fitted FWS-10 engine with a serial production number,that's a historical moment for the Chinese jet engine industrial. Taihang bravo! I've waited this for ten years.

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## cirr



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## Deino

Hey ... WS-10-powered serial J-10Bs with full PLAAF-serials (albeit psed) !

Seems ready to enter service.... any info on what unit ?

Deino

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## j20blackdragon

cloneman said:


> oh my god,j-10b/c fitted FWS-10 engine with a serial production number,that's a historical moment for the Chinese jet engine industrial. Taihang bravo! I've waited this for ten years.


















A couple of points.

1. WS-10 entering service on a single engine plane should remove all doubts regarding the engine's reliability.

2. This probably means CAC has run out of AL-31FN Series 3 engines. Notice that the first and only deal for the AL-31FN Series 3 occurred in 2011. CAC has not ordered any engines from Russia since.

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## Beast

j20blackdragon said:


> View attachment 282059
> View attachment 282060
> View attachment 282061
> View attachment 282062
> 
> 
> A couple of points.
> 
> 1. WS-10 entering service on a single engine plane should remove all doubts regarding the engine's reliability.
> 
> 2. This probably means CAC has run out of AL-31FN Series 3 engines. Notice that the first and only deal for the AL-31FN Series 3 occurred in 2011. CAC has not ordered any engines from Russia since.


AL-31FN engine on J-10B are just for testing out the whole airplane functionality,once completed will swapped out with WS-10B. This is to longer the lifespan of WS-10B and make full use of the spare AL-31FN engines available.

AL-31FN do not have the thrust of WS-10B and do not fulfil PLAAF needs for J-10B/C.

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## cirr



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## nang2

Investigation on 12/17 accident was done. It was a bird.

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## cirr



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## BoQ77

nang2 said:


> Investigation on 12/17 accident was done. It was a bird.


@Beast : did you blame the Russian engine?

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## Deino

cirr said:


>




At least any info on its serial ???


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## The Eagle

The J-20 mass production news then engine news on J-10, Whoooaaa.... China has really a mega box of surprises. Congrats China for development. Way to go Friend. What an end of year with these goodies. Congrats gain.

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## kuge

videooooo....pls


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## Deino

kuge said:


> videooooo....pls




No ... serial number please !


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## Beast

BoQ77 said:


> @Beast : did you blame the Russian engine?


Ruskie engine is so bad it can't even stop a bird 

President Xi has already order those commander who still demand Ruskie engine be tried for treason.

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## Deino

Source please ??? ... or again wishful thinking based on Your hate on this type of engine ?


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Source please ??? ... or again wishful thinking based on Your hate on this type of engine ?


You cannot see the new J-10B/C with WS-10B? Is it?

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## Deino

I see it very clearly ... but I also see more than 53 AL-31FN-powered J-10B operational, which You want to ignore !

I agree with it is a hint of what will be the standard engine for the "C" ... but like a German saying says: "One swallow alone does not make a summer !"


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## Beast

Deino said:


> I see it very clearly ... but I also see more than 53 AL-31FN-powered J-10B operational, which You want to ignore !
> 
> I agree with it is a hint of what will be the standard engine for the "C" ... but like a German saying says: "One swallow alone does not make a summer !"


Those with serial number J-10B/C equipped with AL-31FN are never operational. They will joined only the fleet once the WS-10B swapped on it.

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## Deino

Again a source please ! They have clearly visible serials, showing them assigned to the 170. Brigade FTTC, the 2. Fighter Division and also the 19. and 21. Division are said to have already a few ... so they are operational in frontline units regardless what You hope or wish !


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## cnleio



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## nang2

cnleio said:


> View attachment 283062


The upper part is so blurred that it is barely readable. Care to take another picture?


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## cnleio

nang2 said:


> The upper part is so blurred that it is barely readable. Care to take another picture?


Sorry, bro. just one photo ...

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## Deino

This report (to admit, mine !) was already posted by IrbiS here:

Chengdu: J-10/FC-20 Multirole Fighter Air Craft | Page 511

Deino

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## cnleio

Deino said:


> This report (to admit, mine !) was already posted by IrbiS here:
> 
> Chengdu: J-10/FC-20 Multirole Fighter Air Craft | Page 511
> 
> Deino


Mr Deino, u wrote this article about J-10B ? Wow, very awesome !  I just find it in Chinese military forum.

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## Deino

cnleio said:


> Mr Deino, u wrote this article about J-10B ? Wow, very awesome !  I just find it in Chinese military forum.




Yes that's mine ... and thanks for Your kind words.

By the way, in the same issue also a report about the Divine Eagle is included and in the current (January) issue three reports about the J-15, J-16 and the C919. Hope You like them too.

Deino

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## cnleio

Deino said:


> Yes that's mine ... and thanks for Your kind words.
> 
> By the way, in the same issue also a report about the Divine Eagle is included and in the current (January) issue three reports about the J-15, J-16 and the C919. Hope You like them too.
> 
> Deino

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## XiaoYaoZi

Happy new year!!!

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## cnleio

J-10B & Lazer bomb & targeting pod

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## cnleio

@Deino coming, Can you count how many J-10A/S/B/C already built in China ChengDu ?


*Is the 6th batch of 16th new J-10A fighter ?*











*Is the 2nd batch of 30th new J-10S fighter ?*











*Is the 1st batch of 53th new J-10B fighter ? *











*Is the 2nd batch of 23th new J-10C fighter ?*

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## cnleio

What J-10 PLAAF had, Is that 320x J-10A + 130x J-10S + 53x J-10B + 120+ J-10C = 650x J-10 fighters ??? @Deino Or is that 170x J-10A + 80x J-10S + 53x J-10B + 80x J-10C = 400x J-10 fighters ??? 

Which one is more possible ?

2nd batch of 27th new J-10C fighter

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## The Eagle

cnleio said:


> What J-10 PLAAF had, Is that 320x J-10A + 130x J-10S + 50+ J-10B + 120+ J-10C = 650x J-10 fighters ??? @Deino
> 
> 
> 2nd batch of 27th new J-10C fighter
> View attachment 285107



So a lot of new year gifts.


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## cnleio

The Eagle said:


> So a lot of new year gifts.


Since 1st J-10A N.o1001 prototype take off in 1994, 1st J-10A joint PLAAF in 2004 ... China had already produced J-10 fighters more than 15 years.

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## onebyone

cnleio said:


> What J-10 PLAAF had, Is that 320x J-10A + 130x J-10S + 53x J-10B + 120+ J-10C = 650x J-10 fighters ??? @Deino Or is that 170x J-10A + 80x J-10S + 53x J-10B + 80x J-10C = 400x J-10 fighters ???
> 
> Which one is more possible ?
> 
> 2nd batch of 27th new J-10C fighter
> View attachment 285107


 OH my God 650X J-10

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## cnleio

onebyone said:


> OH my God 650X J-10


I can't make sure yet, so need @Deino help ... i remember one batch = 20~24x jets but there's a '153' make me confused ... i do think there should be 400~500x J-10A/S/B/C fighters in PLAAF.

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## The Eagle

cnleio said:


> Since 1st J-10A N.o1001 prototype take off in 1994, 1st J-10A joint PLAAF in 2004 ... China had already produced J-10 fighters more than 15 years.
> 
> View attachment 285109



I tried to say that more new birds, new batches and new addition. Happy at end at all....

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## cnleio

The Eagle said:


> I tried to say that more new birds, new batches and new addition. Happy at end at all....


Yes ... the ChengDu aircraft manufacturing company produced hundreds J-10 fighters, but there no more new J-10A coz new product update to beautiful J-10C, producing continue not stop ... such new multi-role single-jet fighter also to build hundreds for PLAAF like F-16C/D for USAF. I only wish we can provide enough mature WS-10A jet engines for these new birds not AL-31F alone. 














Inside PLAAF J-10A cockpit

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## Deino

cnleio said:


> I can't make sure yet, so need @Deino help ... i remember one batch = 20~24x jets but there's a '153' make me confused ... i do think there should be 400~500x J-10A/S/B/C fighters in PLAAF.




Thanks for Your confidence. First of all You need to know how CAC serials its aircraft: the first number on production aircraft is usually the production batch or block, while the last two digits are the individual number of that certain bird within that batch.

As such there are not 630 J-10A but it is the 30. aircraft of batch 6. The problem now that these batches are not equally large - as we just see of the first batch J-10B - and I lost a bit my list of the numbers, however we know that there are 7. batches for the J-10A and 3 for the S/AS ... and now 2 for the B/C. The first batches were significantly smaller than the later ones

*I made a compilation / summary in late 2013 of all the info I gathered around:*



> The first three production blocks were only of 24 aircraft each + the lot 00 prototypes & pre-serials
> 
> *J-10 + J-10A*
> J10-Block 00: only mystery and estimated between 14-16: Prototypes 1001-1006 + 01-06 at FTTC + ?
> J10-Block 01: 24 – to 44.FD
> J10-Block 02: 24 – to 3. FD
> J10-Block 03: 24 – to 2. FD + 1. FD
> J10A-Block 04: 40 – to . FD + 1. FD + 24. FD
> J10A-Block 05: 40 – to Ba Yi + PLANAF 4. AD/8.AR
> J10A-Block 06: 40 – to 9. FD + upgrade of other units
> J10A-Block 07: 40 – current block: will go to 12. FD + PLANAF 9. AD (strangely 25. AR with J-8DH/H and not the
> *
> J-10S + AS*
> J10S-Block 01: 10 (??) – to 3. FD + 2. FD + 1. FD
> J10AS-Block 02: 40 – 24. FD + all other units …
> 
> Last aircraft built in 2012 was 7-08, so the production lot for 2013 will be the reminder of this lot. Quite remarkable, the often reported second production line must be finished in about 2011 since 2012 nearly 47 (confirmed) other say even 60 aircraft were build.
> 
> Andi



Overall I think it is save to assume that with now for the serials A and AS (7 batches of A + 3 batches of S/AS) + the B/C-production at 55 J-10B and 27 J-10C I come to a sum of:

232 J-10A
90 J-10AS
55 J-10B
27 J-10C
-------------
404 serial J-10 of all versions (without the prototypes)

All the best,
Deino

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## 55100864

cnleio said:


>


That's a very tight turn, but it could lose a lot of energy.


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## Beast

55100864 said:


> That's a very tight turn, but it could lose a lot of energy.


If your enemy is chasing you or missile is homing on, they could lose more by try keeping up with you.

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## cnleio

Deino said:


> Thanks for Your confidence. First of all You need to know how CAC serials its aircraft: the first number on production aircraft is usually the production batch or block, while the last two digits are the individual number of that certain bird within that batch.
> 
> As such there are not 630 J-10A but it is the 30. aircraft of batch 6. The problem now that these batches are not equally large - as we just see of the first batch J-10B - and I lost a bit my list of the numbers, however we know that there are 7. batches for the J-10A and 3 for the S/AS ... and now 2 for the B/C. The first batches were significantly smaller than the later ones
> 
> *I made a compilation / summary in late 2013 of all the info I gathered around:*
> 
> 
> 
> Overall I think it is save to assume that with now for the serials A and AS (7 batches of A + 3 batches of S/AS) + the B/C-production at 55 J-10B and 27 J-10C I come to a sum of:
> 
> 232 J-10A
> 100 J-10AS
> 55 J-10B
> 27 J-10C
> -------------
> 414 serial J-10 of all versions (without the prototypes)
> 
> All the best,
> Deino



My friend, after i check & research carefully again ... i found one batch of J-10A and J-10S should be 40x fighters.
I agree ur list about J-10B and J-10C ... currently ChengDu produced new 55x J-10B and 27x J-10C fighters, 1st batch all r J-10B and 2nd batch start J-10C.
I disagree ur list about J-10A and J-10C ... each batch more like 40x fighters, 7 batch of J-10A should be 280x and 3 batch of J-10S should be 120x
I do believe one batch produced 40x J-10A and J-10S (at least over 35x), these photos can prove im right, new J-10A/S serial numbers 35 ~ 39.

















So my conclusion is ... 7 batch of J-10A + 3 batch of J-10S, + 1 batch of J-10B + 1 batch of J-10C,there'r

280x J-10A
120x J-10AS
55x J-10B
27x J-10C
-------------
PLAAF totally has 482x serial J-10 of all versions (without the prototypes)

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## Deino

cnleio said:


> My friend, after i check & research carefully again ... i found one batch of J-10A and J-10S should be 40x fighters.
> I agree ur list about J-10B and J-10C ... currently ChengDu produced new 55x J-10B and 27x J-10C fighters, 1st batch all r J-10B and 2nd batch start J-10C.
> I disagree ur list about J-10A and J-10C ... each batch more like 40x fighters, 7 batch of J-10A should be 280x and 3 batch of J-10S should be 120x
> I do believe one batch produced 40x J-10A and J-10S (at least over 35x), these photos can prove im right, new J-10A/S serial numbers 35 ~ 39.
> 
> So my conclusion is ... 7 batch of J-10A + 3 batch of J-10S, + 1 batch of J-10B + 1 batch of J-10C,there'r
> 
> 280x J-10A
> 120x J-10AS
> 55x J-10B
> 27x J-10C
> -------------
> PLAAF totally has 482x serial J-10 of all versions (without the prototypes)



To admit I have to disagree, since we have never seen any of the first batches with a number larger that 24 ... if You have I will surely correct my estimation, but so far I know not a single J-10A from batch 01 - 03 with more than 24 aircraft and for the AS in batch 1 beyond no. 10.

As far as I know this lower early production rate is related to the fact that for long only one assembly line was producing the J-10, while the J-7 was still in production. After the J-7 line was closed and converted to the J-10 too the number of aircraft per batch increased.

All the best,
Deino

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## The Eagle

cnleio said:


> Yes ... the ChengDu aircraft manufacturing company produced hundreds J-10 fighters, but there no more new J-10A coz new product update to beautiful J-10C, producing continue not stop ... such new multi-role single-jet fighter also to build hundreds for PLAAF like F-16C/D for USAF. I only wish we can provide enough mature WS-10A jet engines for these new birds not AL-31F alone.
> 
> View attachment 285158
> 
> View attachment 285157
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inside PLAAF J-10A cockpit



Indeed production of a bird in huge numbers with different batches indicates the trust in it though the Al 31 is not there forever and hopefully China is working very smart and hard for WS-10 and further to WS 15 as well. So fingers crossed for our Chinese friends and more gifts. Happy production mate.

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## cnleio



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## cirr



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## Martian2

cirr said:


>


Whoever took the picture probably did not adjust the light level correctly.

I used IrfanView's software function "Auto adjust colors" to fix the problem. You can see a lot more detail with proper lighting.

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## Deino

By the way with the first number being clearly a 7 ... it seems as if our friend is or will be assigned to a Brigade, maybe also the 170. Brigade at the FTTC ?

Deino

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## cnleio



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## Mr304_AJ

cnleio said:


> View attachment 285508
> View attachment 285509
> View attachment 285510
> View attachment 285511


@cnleio whats the Current status of Naval version J-10, is it start using WS-10A engine or its using still the older one used for PLAAF J-10A and J-10B version..


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## Deino

Mr304_AJ said:


> @cnleio whats the Current status of Naval version J-10, is it start using WS-10A engine or its using still the older one used for PLAAF J-10A and J-10B version..




Sorry to step in !!! ... but maybe for all with a similar frequently popping-up question:

None of the J-10A/AS or in case of the PLANAF J-10AH or SH uses the WS-10B ! Simply none ... they all use the standard AL-31FN.

So far only the no. 1035 J-10B prototype and now the last two batch 01 J-10B (no. 1-54 & 1-55) are using the WS-10B.

Deino

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## Blue Marlin

Deino said:


> Sorry to step in !!! ... but maybe for all with a similar frequently popping-up question:
> 
> None of the J-10A/AS or in case of the PLANAF J-10AH or SH uses the WS-10B ! Simply none ... they all use the standard AL-31FN.
> 
> So far only the no. 1035 J-10B prototype and now the last two batch 01 J-10B (no. 1-54 & 1-55) are using the WS-10B.
> 
> Deino


that would mean the engines are mature enough to be installed or later j10b/c's then wouldn't it?


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## Deino

The WS-10B ?? ... Honestly I don't think so, at least not the earlier A-models.

I can't think that - like Beast always claims - all so far delivered J-10Bs (now more than 80 !) are only sitting around and waiting for the WS-10B to be delivered even if I won't exclude that some day they will replace their engines.


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## cnleio

Mr304_AJ said:


> @cnleio whats the Current status of Naval version J-10, is it start using WS-10A engine or its using still the older one used for PLAAF J-10A and J-10B version..


As @Deino said ... as far as we can see, current naval version J-10AH and J-10SH all r using Russia AL-31 jet engines, only naval version new J-11BH fighters using domestic WS-10. The domestic WS-10 series jet engines will wildly equiped by new J-10B and J-10C fighters not old J-10A/S ... coz
1. China can't provide enough WS-10 jet engines timely for all 400x J-10A/S/B/C fighters
2. If old J-10A/S fighter install WS-10 too, it seems need to change airframe structure and update flight control system from AL-31 to WS-10 jet engine ... that will cost money and time for 200+ J-10A and J-10S fighters.

Simply speaking, we might won't see WS-10 on any J-10A and J-10S fighter ... only on new produced J-10B and J-10C fighters. The J-10A/S project closed, now ChengDu focus on producing J-10B/C, no update plan for old J-10.


Naval J-10AH and J-10SH with AL-31






Naval J-11BH and J-11BSH with WS-10

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## 帅的一匹

J11BH looks very sexy.

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## The Eagle

cnleio said:


> As @Deino said ... as far as we can see, current naval version J-10AH and J-10SH all r using Russia AL-31 jet engines, only naval version new J-11BH fighters using domestic WS-10. The domestic WS-10 series jet engines will wildly equiped by new J-10B and J-10C fighters not old J-10A/S ... coz
> 1. China can't provide enough WS-10 jet engines timely for all 400x J-10A/S/B/C fighters
> 2. If old J-10A/S fighter install WS-10 too, it seems need to change airframe structure and update flight control system from AL-31 to WS-10 jet engine ... that will cost money and time for 200+ J-10A and J-10S fighters.
> 
> Simply speaking, we might won't see WS-10 on any J-10A and J-10S fighter ... only on new produced J-10B and J-10C fighters. The J-10A/S project closed, now ChengDu focus on producing J-10B/C, no update plan for old J-10.
> 
> 
> Naval J-10AH and J-10SH with AL-31
> View attachment 285524
> 
> 
> 
> Naval J-11BH and J-11BSH with WS-10
> View attachment 285525
> 
> View attachment 285526



Good to see that now China is on the way of own produced engines and as starter WS-10 and then on and on, way to go guys and hope to see more matured power plants.

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## Tiqiu

J-10B Vigorous Dragon Improvement Over J-10A
J-10B Vigorous Dragon Improvement Over J-10A – China Defense Observation

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## Deino

Deino said:


> By the way with the first number being clearly a 7 ... it seems as if our friend is or will be assigned to a Brigade, maybe also the 170. Brigade at the FTTC ?
> 
> Deino
> 
> View attachment 285503




"Henry K:" reports (translated from http://www.forcesdz.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=233&sid=bda63d787b393c8047ef72c42dea3750&start=5700):



> According to the spotters in Chengdu, at least three J-10B with the painting of the Armée de l'air and the Chinese engine WS-10B flew today around thefactory132. One of them is registered 78117. What entity owns ?



That would fit exactly my predictions of being assigned to the 170. Brigade FTTC.

Deino

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## Tiqiu



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## Deino

They were all posted already ... could You guys please check a bit if the images are new or only old stuff !??

This tread - like many others too - becomes so big if so often old images were posted.

Thanks,
Deino


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## Tiqiu

Sorry, my fault. Please delete it.


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## cnleio

15 years of J-10 family evolution

Interesting there's a Lavi ... @500

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## 500

cnleio said:


> 15 years of J-10 family evolution
> 
> Interesting there's a Lavi ... @500
> View attachment 285666

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## cnleio

500 said:


>


Israel was a window for China to understand & touch West advanced tech in 1980s ... including the Lavi. Others were France, West Germany.

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## Al-Taïr

in future can we see ws15 in J10.. As it will replace Al31 in J20. ?


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## HAIDER



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## Akasa

What matters is when the J-10C is equipped with the engine.

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## HAIDER

SinoSoldier said:


> What matters is when the J-10C is equipped with the engine.


J10A is equpped with AL31.


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## 帅的一匹

Al-Taïr said:


> in future can we see ws15 in J10.. As it will replace Al31 in J20. ?


i don't think so bro, WS15 engine with 16 tons of thrust is way too good for J10 series, WS10b with 14 tons thrust is good enough for J10b. WS15 is designed for J20.

To adapt WS15, J10b has to modify the rear fuselage to hold it. It's not cost effective.

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## CCP

A new batch of J-10 (with WS-10 engines).

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## I FLY HIGH

is WS10 cleared for use in serial bulk production in j10b/c?

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## Deino

CCP said:


> A new batch of J-10 (with WS-10 engines).




No, this images is from 29. September 2015 but they are AL-31FN ! ... see the comparison to the other image.









*By the way .... WHY do You always create a new tread when an existing tread fits exactly the topic ???*

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## Akasa

Deino said:


> No, this images is from 29. September 2015 but they are AL-31FN ! ... see the comparison to the other image.
> 
> View attachment 285934
> View attachment 285933
> 
> 
> *By the way .... WHY do You always create a new tread when an existing tread fits exactly the topic ???*



Your work is amazing, Deino. Keep it up!

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## The Eagle

One of the obvious reasons For @Deino to be Intl'l MOD.... Nothing can skip.... Good Work...

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## cnleio



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## sheik



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## asia2000

According to yankeesama (at thepaper.cn slash asktopic_detail_10001013), J10 will never have WS10 engine.


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## Deino

And why are then several already flying around even with PLAAF-serials ??? Just for fun ... ?

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## Martian2

*Serial Number List of J-10/J-10A/J-10S | Chinese Military Aviation*

A frequent question is: How many first-generation J-10s does China have in service?

The list (see citation below) is a good reference point. If you don't see a first-generation J-10 on the list, you've found a new plane. I don't think the list includes J-10Bs.

If you click on the link to the site, there is also a list of J-11Bs, Su-30MKKs, JH-7s, H-6Ks, and J-15s.
----------

Chinese Military Aviation: Gallery II

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## Deino

Ohhh ... look how many J-10Bs are ready for delivery ! Just give me a number.

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## asia2000

Deino said:


> Ohhh ... look how many J-10Bs are ready for delivery ! Just give me a number.



Looks like Chengdu is on full speed of making J10. The only limit might be on the number of AL31 engines we have.

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## 帅的一匹

asia2000 said:


> Looks like Chengdu is on full speed of making J10. The only limit might be on the number of AL31 engines we have.


It always hurt butt if the engine problem get unsolved.

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## Deino

A very nice shot ... but again with ps'ed serials ! 

Anyway with these latest images of '229' at CAC / Chengdu in the sun and these in snow, ... could be that the J-10B-images were not taken at CAC ??

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## cirr

J-10C enlisted with the PLAAF

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## asia2000

Has this interview with Mr. Lei Qiang been posted? 

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTE4OTE0MzI=.html


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## cirr



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## Deino

cirr said:


> J-10C enlisted with the PLAAF




Are there any reports about the serial ?? That image is so clear that - even if he used one hiding the number - he at least MUST know the serial and as such the Division and Regiment?

Is there no talk about such things in Chinese forums ?

Deino


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## english_man

Does anyone know how many J10's in total China is likely to build, as of current day estimates? Thanks.


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## asia2000

Deino said:


> Are there any reports about the serial ?? That image is so clear that - even if he used one hiding the number - he at least MUST know the serial and as such the Division and Regiment?
> 
> Is there no talk about such things in Chinese forums ?
> 
> Deino


Someone says the first number is 5

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## Deino

asia2000 said:


> Someone says the first number is 5



Thanks a lot,

If it is a "5", then the answer is indeed simple, since no other Division starts with a "5" other than the 44. Division, ... which in return would make sense to replace the J-10A there similar to the 2. Division and reassign the older J-10A to another unit.

So time will tell.

Deino


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## Deino

So now we also have the C in PLAAF service ... but I really do not understand, why the C lacks the MAWS on its tail ? 
*



*

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## siegecrossbow

J-10B cockpit images?

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## Shotgunner51

Deino said:


> So now we also have the C in PLAAF service ... but I really do not understand, why the C lacks the MAWS on its tail ?
> *
> View attachment 290675
> *



I think the pics are in this order, J-10A (top), B (middle), C (bottom). Please double-check if that's correct, thanks!

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## Deino

Shotgunner51 said:


> I think the pics are in this order, J-10A (top), B (middle), C (bottom). Please double-check if that's correct, thanks!
> 
> View attachment 291003




NO ... They are correct in the original image and in Yours, the C now is in the middle. This latest version is externally recognisable on that blade aerial in the fin close to the tip, three antennas/aerials on the spine and quite strangely the lacking RWRs on the fin.

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## Shotgunner51

Deino said:


> NO ... They are correct in the original image and in Yours, the C now is in the middle. This latest version is externally recognisable on that blade aerial in the fin close to the tip, three antennas/aerials on the spine and quite strangely the lacking RWRs on the fin.




Thanks bro!

Here is a source from Xinhua ( http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2016-02/02/c_128693496_2.htm ), saying this plane (201) is very likely to be J-10C. There is PWR on the fin, and one antenna on the spine.






Can you help verify whether the source is being correct or not? Thanks!


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## cirr

J-10Cs entering service en mass。

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## Deino

cirr said:


> J-10Cs entering service en mass。




Any info on what unit will gain them ?


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## cnleio

Shotgunner51 said:


> I think the pics are in this order, J-10A (top), B (middle), C (bottom). Please double-check if that's correct, thanks!
> 
> View attachment 291003


Middle is J-10C, last is the J-10B

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## Deino

cirr said:


> J-10Cs entering service en mass。




Here a bit better ...

IMO it's amazing how incredibly thorough the Chinese posters are at blurring out the serials on all J-10B/S and J-16. Given the fact that the J-10 production plant is in the middle of Chengdu, with millions of people armed with cameras all around it, and yet we haven't been able to find a clear picture with a clear serial - only one to be precisely - and that's even more surprising in mind of the countless high-resolution images of the PLAAF's true "premier" fighter, the J-20 ....

Deino


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## Mughal-Prince

cnleio said:


>



Oouuu WTF!
This Sh!t is seriously menuvorable man thats a fu(kin sumer sault!

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## 帅的一匹

J10 series will be remembered in China aviation history forever.


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## Deino

An operational J-10B at night

Any info on what unit ?? .. there's something they are telling about "78" ... but I do not understand !??

大漠神剑之石榴和女棍 - 空军论坛 - 鼎盛论坛 -

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## j20blackdragon

J-10C

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## randomradio

Deino said:


> NO ... They are correct in the original image and in Yours, the C now is in the middle. This latest version is externally recognisable on that blade aerial in the fin close to the tip, three antennas/aerials on the spine and quite strangely the lacking RWRs on the fin.



If C's the one in the middle, then it's lacking the LWS in the rear.

Anyway, do we know the configuration of B and C?


----------



## hk299792458

Deino said:


> An operational J-10B at night
> 
> Any info on what unit ?? .. there's something they are telling about "78" ... but I do not understand !??
> 
> 大漠神剑之石榴和女棍 - 空军论坛 - 鼎盛论坛 -
> 
> View attachment 293753



Dinxing, OPFOR.

Henri K.

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## cirr

FC-20 ready for export？

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## Deino

cirr said:


> FC-20 ready for export？




Seems so ... it is already labelled as the FC-20 on AVIC's HP since some time.


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## aliaselin

cirr said:


> FC-20 ready for export？


Maybe only J-10A


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> FC-20 ready for export？



Hmm... I though the J-10A was only compatible with the Al-31, and hence cannot be exported.


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## cirr

The 1st regiment of J-10Cs（24-26 planes）nearly there。Will make the 2nd this year。






 2 regiments of J-10Bs and 2 regiments of J-10Cs by the end of the year？？

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> The 1st regiment of J-10Cs（24 planes）nearly there。Will make the 2nd this year。
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 regiments of J-10Bs and 2 regiments of J-10Cs by the end of the year？？



Any idea why the J-10C did not integrate an optical MAW system on its vertical stabilizer?


----------



## cirr

SinoSoldier said:


> Any idea why the J-10C did not integrate an optical MAW system on its vertical stabilizer?



There are better ways of integrating this and that。

Rest assured，J-10C represents a step-change in sensors and avionics comparing with what J-10B has.

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## Deino

J-10C psed but nice ....

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## cirr

Deino said:


> J-10C psed but nice ....
> 
> View attachment 294937



1st regiment of J-10Cs formed。

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## cnleio

Deino said:


> J-10C psed but nice ....
> 
> View attachment 294937


A beautiful bird joint PLAAF ... NICE !


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## Deino

cirr said:


> 1st regiment of J-10Cs formed。




But this is a photoshopped image !

Even more I don't think that the C-model was already taking part at the Golden helmet exercise ?

Deino

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## cirr

Deino said:


> But this is a photoshopped image !
> 
> Even more I don't think that the C-model was already taking part at the Golden helmet exercise ?
> 
> Deino
> 
> View attachment 294953



PSed to hide the unit to which the bird belongs。

A total of at least 30 J-10Cs has been produced so far，with 30-40 more to be produced in 2016.

Possible units with J-10Bs：2S、19S and 21S；units with J-10Cs：66L、44S

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## Genesis

cirr said:


> PSed to hide the unit to which the bird belongs。
> 
> A total of at least 30 J-10Cs has been produced so far，with 30-40 more to be produced in 2016.
> 
> Possible units with J-10Bs：2S、19S and 21S；units with J-10Cs：66L、44S


Are Cs 100% with WS?


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## Deino

Genesis said:


> Are Cs 100% with WS?



No ... clearly AL-31FN, just look at the nozzle.




cirr said:


> ....
> 
> Possible units with J-10Bs：2S、19S and 21S；units with J-10Cs：66L、44S




the 2. Division is confirmed and the 19. most likely too (with an image available showing a blurred "3" as first number) ... the rumours about the 44. Division I know too, but what is 66L ?? the 66. Regiment within the 22. Division is long dead and was reassigned / absorbed to the 90. Brigade, Dalian Base.

Deino


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## cirr

Deino said:


> No ... clearly AL-31FN, just look at the nozzle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the 2. Division is confirmed and the 19. most likely too (with an image available showing a blurred "3" as first number) ... the rumours about the 44. Division I know too, but what is 66L ?? the 66. Regiment within the 22. Division is long dead and was reassigned / absorbed to the 90. Brigade, Dalian Base.
> 
> Deino



S - Division
L - Brigade
T - Regiment

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## Deino

cirr said:


> S - Division
> L - Brigade
> T - Regiment




o.k. ... Thanks, ... but so far there is now 66. Brigade.

From what I know Brigades can be found in the Training units, the FTTC, CFTE and the Bases.

Again from what I know (by ignoring the Training Brigades) the ...:

*FTTC: *151st, 156st (unconfirmed), 170th, 171st and 172nd Brigade

*CFTE at Dingxin: *175th Brigade

*Shanghai Base: *78th, 85th, 86th and 93rd Brigade

*Nanning Base: *124th, 125th, 126th Brigade ... surprisingly one Brigade still missing

*Ürümqi Base: *109th, 110th, 111th and 112th Brigade

*Dalian Base: *88th, 89th, 90th and 91st Brigade


... but no 66. Brigade ! Do You know more where it is assigned to and maybe even based ?

Deino

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## Deino

Again me ... finally found again that strange 66. Brigade here: 根据各类八股，有号图，传说，GE，判断： - 空军论坛 - 鼎盛论坛 -



> 2015，空军换10单位：
> 
> 124L：接2S 10A
> 2S：10B
> 19S：10B
> 21S：10B
> 66L：10C
> 
> 2016：
> 44S：10C
> 44S132T：接131的10




But I still don't know a 66. Brigade ???

Deino


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## Deino

Again me ... no-one with an idea regarding this strange 66. Brigade ??


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## Deino

Deino said:


> Again me ... no-one with an idea regarding this strange 66. Brigade ??



Hu ... still nothing ???


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## Deino

Nice ....

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## Deino

Deino said:


> Again me ... no-one with an idea regarding this strange 66. Brigade ??




Here agin the 66. Brigade is mentioned ...

根据各类八股，有号图，传说，GE，判断： - 空军论坛 - 鼎盛论坛 -

... but still no info in where this is ?


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## cirr

J-10D, J-10D, J-10D.

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## Kompromat

What is this all about 



cirr said:


> J-10D, J-10D, J-10D.

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## Zarvan

cirr said:


> J-10D, J-10D, J-10D.


For love of GOD now J-10 D!!! You don't induct one J-10 version and come up with new version @Deino @Beast Is it true I mean is J-10 D also coming

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## 帅的一匹

Zarvan said:


> For love of GOD now J-10 D!!! You don't induct one J-10 version and come up with new version @Deino @Beast Is it true I mean is J-10 D also coming


WTF, J10d?


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## Deino

At least any hints what's about this J-10D ??? Finally a twin-seater J-10C ??


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## Akasa

It's probably another false alarm. There hasn't been a peep about a notional "J-10D" elsewhere.


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## Deino

Let's wait and see ...

By the way, another nice operational J-10B most likely from the 19. Div.

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## cirr

J-10D, an F-35 in all substance but appearance.

The apparent lack of stealthness will be compensated by adoption of "new technologies" and advanced avionics.


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> J-10D, an F-35 in all substance but appearance.
> 
> The apparent lack of stealthness will be compensated by adoption of "new technologies" and advanced avionics.



What is the progress of this "J-10D"? What separates it from the J-10B/C?


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## cirr

SinoSoldier said:


> What is the progress of this "J-10D"? What separates it from the J-10B/C?



There Are apparently ways to make a fighter jet that does not look stealthy, stealthy. 

CAC has found solutions to all the technical issues that make J-10D what it will be. A BEAST. 

What is even better, existing production facilities for J-10B/Cs can easily be adapted to produce J-10Ds, thereby saving bucket loads of time and money.

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> There Are apparently ways to make a fighter jet that does not look stealthy, stealthy.
> 
> CAC has found solutions to all the technical issues that make J-10D what it will be. A BEAST.
> 
> What is even better, existing production facilities for J-10B/Cs can easily be adapted to produce J-10Ds, thereby saving bucket loads of time and money.



So, what exactly is this "J-10D" in terms of technical enhancements; will there be structural or subsystem changes compared to J-10B/C? And what stage of development is it in?


----------



## Zarvan

cirr said:


> There Are apparently ways to make a fighter jet that does not look stealthy, stealthy.
> 
> CAC has found solutions to all the technical issues that make J-10D what it will be. A BEAST.
> 
> What is even better, existing production facilities for J-10B/Cs can easily be adapted to produce J-10Ds, thereby saving bucket loads of time and money.


Sir sorry but I want to believe you but what is your source ?


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## Deino

To admit, that all sound too good to be true ... what's the source of these claims ?


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## cirr

SinoSoldier said:


> So, what exactly is this "J-10D" in terms of technical enhancements; will there be structural or subsystem changes compared to J-10B/C? And what stage of development is it in?



For example, the combat range of J-10D will be greatly extended over its predecessors.

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## Beast

Zarvan said:


> For love of GOD now J-10 D!!! You don't induct one J-10 version and come up with new version @Deino @Beast Is it true I mean is J-10 D also coming


I haven check fyjs forum for few days. Will go there and checkout what's new.

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## Deino

cirr said:


> For example, the combat range of J-10D will be greatly extended over its predecessors.




BUt how ? ... and even more if the latest J-10C features the improvements of An AESA, probably higher-thrust engines ... maybe finally the so often mentioned WS-10B (14t) but how could You extend the range "greatly" without again major airframe changes ?

Here are two links concerning the J-10D !

http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1809909-1-1.html
http://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2217041&page=5&authorid=31490

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## Daniel808

cirr said:


> For example, the combat range of J-10D will be greatly extended over its predecessors.



Combat range will be greatly extended.
You mean this? Chengdu J-10 with Conformal Tank. 







Love it ! If true..

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## Beast

Daniel808 said:


> Combat range will be greatly extended.
> You mean this? Chengdu J-10 with Conformal Tank.
> 
> View attachment 301114
> 
> 
> Love it ! If true..


Maybe, with more powerful engine. Conformal tank will be feasible.

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## lcloo

The disclosure on J-10D was from Pupu, a highly respected senior poster in Chinese internet, and his information is said from another reliable source as in the attached picture. Words in the picture includes.....
J-10D is
1) not stealth shape
2) application of new technology and advance avionics to compensate for lack of stealth (shape form)
3) avoided problems faced by F-35 (actual word is 35, I could be wrong if it was referring to Su-35, but I am more inclined he meant F-35 which is problem prompt)
4) can share production lines of J-10B/C.
5) has longer range than current J-10 series.

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> For example, the combat range of J-10D will be greatly extended over its predecessors.



Interesting, indeed. Does the source say when the prototype will roll out?


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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> BUt how ? ... and even more if the latest J-10C features the improvements of An AESA, probably higher-thrust engines ... maybe finally the so often mentioned WS-10B (14t) but how could You extend the range "greatly" without again major airframe changes ?
> 
> Here are two links concerning the J-10D !
> 
> http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1809909-1-1.html
> http://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2217041&page=5&authorid=31490


Might be conformal tanker.


----------



## Akasa

lcloo said:


> The disclosure on J-10D was from Pupu, a highly respected senior poster in Chinese internet, and his information is said from another reliable source as in the attached picture. Words in the picture includes.....
> J-10D is
> 1) not stealth shape
> 2) application of new technology and advance avionics to compensate for lack of stealth (shape form)
> 3) avoided problems faced by F-35 (actual word is 35, I could be wrong if it was referring to Su-35, but I am more inclined he meant F-35 which is problem prompt)
> 4) can share production lines of J-10B/C.
> 5) has longer range than current J-10 series.
> 
> View attachment 301142



Any clue as to when the prototype will debut?


----------



## aliaselin

Deino said:


> BUt how ? ... and even more if the latest J-10C features the improvements of An AESA, probably higher-thrust engines ... maybe finally the so often mentioned WS-10B (14t) but how could You extend the range "greatly" without again major airframe changes ?
> 
> Here are two links concerning the J-10D !
> 
> http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1809909-1-1.html
> http://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2217041&page=5&authorid=31490


VCE version of WS-10


----------



## Deino

Not sure how recent this image is ...

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Not sure how recent this image is ...
> 
> View attachment 304342


I guess PAF want some @Horus @MastanKhan @batmannow @DESERT FIGHTER

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## MastanKhan

wanglaokan said:


> I guess PAF want some @Horus @MastanKhan @batmannow @DESERT FIGHTER




Hi,

The first thing is that with the WS10 engine---being newest production engine & technology---the fuel consumption would be lower---so off course better loiter time.

Again the chinese should look into other options that than conformal fuel tanks.

The first option again is the squarish fuel tank from the Gripen NG----by default of its design---a square carries more fluid that a circle.

With the WS10 engine---I won't be surprised if the fuel mileage increase be 10-20% better than before.

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## 帅的一匹

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The first thing is that with the WS10 engine---being newest production engine & technology---the fuel consumption would be lower---so off course better loiter time.
> 
> Again the chinese should look into other options that than conformal fuel tanks.
> 
> The first option again is the squarish fuel tank from the Gripen NG----by default of its design---a square carries more fluid that a circle.
> 
> With the WS10 engine---I won't be surprised if the fuel mileage increase be 10-20% better than before.
> 
> View attachment 304433


Man you know China has the habit of copying anything that will reinforce our ability. Said J10d developed by 611 use a typical way to increase the range of J10.

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## nang2

wanglaokan said:


> Man you know China has the habit of copying anything that will reinforce our ability. Said J10d developed by 611 use a typical way to increase the range of J10.


Imitation is the first step of learning. All babies know that. China is simply being honest and pragmatic. There is no shame in it.

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## BoQ77

Can you identify this is WS-10 or AL-31FN ? @Deino


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## hk299792458

BoQ77 said:


> Can you identify this is WS-10 or AL-31FN ? @Deino



AL-31FN

This is the engine of the J-10SH biplace of PLA Navy East Fleet, crashed last year in Decembre. The engine inhaled a duck.

For the 16 incidents (class 1, 2 or 3) of J-10 / J-10A / J-10S that I recorded so far (included yesterday one) since 2005, at least 7 are due to engine issue (5 cases of engine stopped, 2 cases of engine rotation speed slowed down). 3 others because the engine inhaled bird.

Henri K.

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## BoQ77

hk299792458 said:


> 31FN
> 
> Henri K.



They said that the engine halted due to wild bird.


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## hk299792458

BoQ77 said:


> They said that the engine halted due to wild bird.



According to the official report, a mallard of between 1 to 1.3 kg had been inhaled.

http://m.news.cntv.cn/2015/12/26/ARTI1451120100388985.shtml

Henri K.

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## BoQ77

hk299792458 said:


> AL-31FN
> 
> This is the engine of the J-10SH biplace of PLA Navy East Fleet, crashed last year in Decembre. The engine inhaled a duck.
> 
> For the 16 incidents (class 1, 2 or 3) of J-10 / J-10A / J-10S that I recorded so far (included yesterday one) since 2005, at least 7 are due to engine issue (5 cases of engine stopped, 2 cases of engine rotation speed slowed down). 3 others because the engine inhaled bird.
> 
> Henri K.



No WS-10 spotted ?


----------



## hk299792458

BoQ77 said:


> No WS-10 spotted ?



I can't get you ?

Henri K.


----------



## BoQ77

hk299792458 said:


> I can't get you ?
> 
> Henri K.



any domestic engine for J10 now?


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## hk299792458

BoQ77 said:


> any domestic engine for J10 now?



At least 1 prototype for J-10 / J-10A, number _1004_, and at least 4 J-10B/C (Prototypes + ??)






The last photo I got on operationnal J-10B with WS-10B is this one, the reference of this fighter seems to start with 7xxxx but I can't read it clearly :






And, the factory that produces WS-10 is enlarging it's production capacity, according to the last annual financial report of AVIC Aviation Engine Corporation. A total of 1.6 billion of Yuan is planned and invested for this enhancement.

http://www.cninfo.com.cn/finalpage/2016-04-22/1202218680.PDF






Henri K.

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## 帅的一匹

hk299792458 said:


> AL-31FN
> 
> This is the engine of the J-10SH biplace of PLA Navy East Fleet, crashed last year in Decembre. The engine inhaled a duck.
> 
> For the 16 incidents (class 1, 2 or 3) of J-10 / J-10A / J-10S that I recorded so far (included yesterday one) since 2005, at least 7 are due to engine issue (5 cases of engine stopped, 2 cases of engine rotation speed slowed down). 3 others because the engine inhaled bird.
> 
> Henri K.


AL31 F can't be trusted, it's too old and has very serious faulty design problem.

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## Deino

By the way ... any confirmation, what type yesterday crashed ??

Concerning the text in that report it came down at Taizhou ...



> Firefighters work to put out a fire in a factory in Taizhou, east China's Zhejiang Province after a fighter jet crashed there on Wednesday evening, May 11, 2016.


http://english.cri.cn/12394/2016/05/11/3821s927305.htm

The closest base to Taizhou is Huangyan/Luqiao (ZSLQ) also known as Taizhou (Pos: 28°33'45"N 121°25'44"E), where the 4. Naval Division, 12. AR equipped with J-10AH/SH is flying.

So another J-10 down ??

Deino


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## 帅的一匹

WS10b is far more delicate design and more reliable. We shall not buy AL31FN anymore, it is not up to mark especially for a single engine fighter.

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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> WS10b is far more delicate design and more reliable. We shall not buy AL31FN anymore, it is not up to mark especially for a single engine fighter.




Sorry to nit-pick again - and I know I'm probably alone with this standpoint against a few well-known WS-10-supporter - but so far we have four WS-10-powered J-10 against several hundreds of AL-31FN powered ones. IMO this simply excludes a final statement about reliability issues since these four birds (1004, 1035 and the most recent two 1-54 & 1-55) are pure test birds assigned to the CFTE and FTTC, whereas all others are front-line operational birds.
And again to compare the accident or failure rate of WS-10-powered J-11Bs with AL-31FN-powered J-10As is also not possible.

Overall however I agree with You, that the future lies in the Taihang for the J-10.
Deino


----------



## S10

BoQ77 said:


> Can you identify this is WS-10 or AL-31FN ? @Deino


AL-31FN

WS-10 has been tested on J-10, but no production model is equipped with it so far.

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## 星海军事

S10 said:


> AL-31FN
> 
> WS-10 has been tested on J-10, but no production model is equipped with it so far.



Uh-uh, Deino is right.

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## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> Uh-uh, Deino is right.



Any information on the purported "J-10D", like, what stage of development it is in?


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## 星海军事

SinoSoldier said:


> Any information on the purported "J-10D", like, what stage of development it is in?



The only information we have now is it can be almost confirmed that there will be J-10D

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## 帅的一匹

星海军事 said:


> The only information we have now is it can be almost confirmed that there will be J-10D


Conformal tanks?


----------



## 星海军事

wanglaokan said:


> Conformal tanks?


No news on CFTs


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## S10

星海军事 said:


> Uh-uh, Deino is right.


Source?


----------



## volatile

Chinese aircraft are being underestimated in the world just because the do not publicize their technology much. This picture is with the PL-12. The new J-10B is capable of carrying PL-15 Long-Range Air/Air Missiles. With an AESA radar and PL-15 with range of 150-180 km. This aircraft can challenge the newer 4++ generation aircraft of the world.


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## Deino

volatile said:


> Chinese aircraft are being underestimated in the world just because the do not publicize their technology much. This picture is with the PL-12. The new J-10B is capable of carrying PL-15 Long-Range Air/Air Missiles. With an AESA radar and PL-15 with range of 150-180 km. This aircraft can challenge the newer 4++ generation aircraft of the world.



Sorry, but is neither the PL-15 nor even the PL-12 .. is plain in simple a very bad Photoshop fake made by using an old J-10A carrying even older PL-11s ....

The J-10A simply can't carry AAMs on the intake pylons or on the rear stations.

Deino

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## volatile

Deino said:


> Sorry, but is neither the PL-15 nor even the PL-12 .. is plain in simple a very bad Photoshop fake made by using an old J-10A carrying even older PL-11s ....
> 
> The J-10A simply can't carry AAMs on the intake pylons or on the rear stations.
> 
> Deino


I took this pic from strategic journal page ,Any ways if you say this is PS it might be ,but doubt about capability has ended b statments and integration of some superior weapons on J10B/C


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## Deino

volatile said:


> I took this pic from strategic journal page ,Any ways if you say this is PS it might be ,but doubt about capability has ended b statments and integration of some superior weapons on J10B/C




The problem is simply that - regardless the source - it is a ps'ed image and even if You are correct that news systems and weapons were integrated esp. with the B/C-models, the J-10 still cannot carry AAMs on the intake- and rear-fuselage stations.

Deino

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## grey boy 2

IS this reliable data of J-10B,C?

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## Ali Zadi

That seems interesting but what is the S in the J-10B/S also is there any other source to collaborate the data?


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## Deino

Ali Zadi said:


> That seems interesting but what is the S in the J-10B/S also is there any other source to collaborate the data?




J-10S are the regular early-model trainers ...


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## Ali Zadi

Deino said:


> J-10S are the regular early-model trainers ...




Thank you for clearing that up but do they represent the use of the same avionics and engine as the 10B?


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## Ultima Thule

volatile said:


> I took this pic from strategic journal page ,Any ways if you say this is PS it might be ,but doubt about capability has ended b statments and integration of some superior weapons on J10B/C


but @Deino is right its is not even J-10b, its simply J-10a, if this is J-10b where is DSI?


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## Deino

At first sight a regular J-10B ready for delivery with again its serial not applied .. however what's interesting !!?? That unpainted twin-seater in the background with the technicians standing around. IMO this one seems to have WS-10... maybe a J-10B/C-twin-seater ... maybe even the J-10D ???

At least the Chinese flag hiding something important ...

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## cirr

Deino said:


> At first sight a regular J-10B ready for delivery with again its serial not applied .. however what's interesting !!?? That unpainted twin-seater in the background with the technicians standing around. IMO this one seems to have WS-10... maybe a J-10B/C-twin-seater ... maybe even the J-10D ???
> 
> At least the Chinese flag hiding something important ...
> 
> View attachment 317172



Very discerning.

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## randomradio

Deino said:


> At first sight a regular J-10B ready for delivery with again its serial not applied .. however what's interesting !!?? That unpainted twin-seater in the background with the technicians standing around. IMO this one seems to have WS-10... maybe a J-10B/C-twin-seater ... maybe even the J-10D ???
> 
> At least the Chinese flag hiding something important ...
> 
> View attachment 317172



There's a JF-17, top, next to the flag. Perhaps the Block 3.


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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> At first sight a regular J-10B ready for delivery with again its serial not applied .. however what's interesting !!?? That unpainted twin-seater in the background with the technicians standing around. IMO this one seems to have WS-10... maybe a J-10B/C-twin-seater ... maybe even the J-10D ???
> 
> At least the Chinese flag hiding something important ...
> 
> View attachment 317172


J-10S with AL-31FN

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## Akasa

星海军事 said:


> J-10S with AL-31FN



Any news regarding FC-31? Rumors claim that it is being transported to Xian.


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## volatile

randomradio said:


> There's a JF-17, top, next to the flag. Perhaps the Block 3.


May be cone looks different


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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Deino said:


> At first sight a regular J-10B ready for delivery with again its serial not applied .. however what's interesting !!?? That unpainted twin-seater in the background with the technicians standing around. IMO this one seems to have WS-10... maybe a J-10B/C-twin-seater ... maybe even the J-10D ???
> 
> At least the Chinese flag hiding something important ...
> 
> View attachment 317172



Dorsal construction looks different...might be new variant.

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## 星海军事

SinoSoldier said:


> Any news regarding FC-31? Rumors claim that it is being transported to Xian.


Nothing Please stick to the thread's topic

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## Beast

Sinopakfriend said:


> Dorsal construction looks different...might be new variant.


Indeed. It maybe the dubbed 'J-10D'

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

Beast said:


> Indeed. It maybe the dubbed 'J-10D'



My thought as well. In the back ground you see FJ-17... The nose cone looks angular. Or is it just angle of light playing tricks.. Thanks

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## 帅的一匹

Sinopakfriend said:


> My thought as well. In the back ground you see FJ-17... The nose cone looks angular. Or is it just angle of light playing tricks.. Thanks


AESA?


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## Deino

Can You continue this discussion on this JF-17 in its own thread please ???

... even more since IMO this one is simply a standard JF-17, so nothing special ... specially nothing in regard to any secret Block III.

Deino


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## hk299792458

I was just laughing when I saw people creating new non-official references, like J-10D, J-20A, Type 055A, Type 094A...etc.

What a pity...

Henri K.


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## Deino

hk299792458 said:


> I was just laughing when I saw people creating new non-official references, like J-10D, J-20A, Type 055A, Type 094A...etc.
> 
> What a pity...
> 
> Henri K.




You are correct, but it might simply be an explanation in order to establish some sort of system into the overall mysterious Chinese nomenclature.
By the way: is the J-10C official ?? 

Deino


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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> You are correct, but it might simply be an explanation in order to establish some sort of system into the overall mysterious Chinese nomenclature.
> By the way: is the J-10C official ??
> 
> Deino


Yes. These code names are written on the plane.

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## Deino

Any news during the last weeks on new B&C-models or even the secret J-10D?

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## Brainsucker

星海军事 said:


> Yes. These code names are written on the plane.



And where is this code that written on the plane? Can somebody show me?

thanks

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## 星海军事

Brainsucker said:


> And where is this code that written on the plane? Can somebody show me?
> 
> thanks

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## Deino

星海军事 said:


>




Indeed, that is esp. for me a very intersting item I follow since years since it shows the Version, the production block and the aircraft's individual number even after being assigned to a frontline unit with its 5-digit serial.


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## Mughal-Prince

Deino said:


> At first sight a regular J-10B ready for delivery with again its serial not applied .. however what's interesting !!?? That unpainted twin-seater in the background with the technicians standing around. IMO this one seems to have WS-10... maybe a J-10B/C-twin-seater ... maybe even the J-10D ???
> 
> _At least the Chinese flag hiding something important ..._
> 
> View attachment 317172



My gut feeling says it has a one piece bubble canopy just like F-16


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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> At first sight a regular J-10B ready for delivery with again its serial not applied .. however what's interesting !!?? That unpainted twin-seater in the background with the technicians standing around. IMO this one seems to have WS-10... maybe a J-10B/C-twin-seater ... maybe even the J-10D ???
> 
> At least the Chinese flag hiding something important ...
> 
> View attachment 317172



The dorsal spine alone tells that there are interesting times ahead. Any further news then after Sir?


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## Deino

The Eagle said:


> The dorsal spine alone tells that there are interesting times ahead. Any further news then after Sir?



Sadly my assumption was wrong. It is simply a standard twin-seater.


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## The Eagle

Mughal-Prince said:


> My gut feeling says it has a one piece bubble canopy just like F-16



Something like this, aah, the beauty isn't it? (can't find it PSed).

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## Deino

Operational now !?!

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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> Operational now !?!
> 
> View attachment 323708



Sir, a little bit of details?. Thanks


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## terranMarine

The Eagle said:


> Sir, a little bit of details?. Thanks


K/JDC01A laser designation pod

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## The Eagle

terranMarine said:


> K/JDC01A laser designation pod



Interesting, so most probably for LS-500J (LGB) and is operational, if I am not wrong.

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## terranMarine

The Eagle said:


> Interesting, so most probably for LS-500J (LGB) and is operational, if I am not wrong.


correct


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## ZedZeeshan

Deino said:


> Any news during the last weeks on new B&C-models or even the secret J-10D?
> 
> View attachment 322242


In J10B and J10 C has the load capacity increased or is it same as J10A..??

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## mil-avia

*Japanese publication cover showing J-10 fighter aircraft :*





*848 × 1200 pixels*


Related link(s).

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## Beast

ZedZeeshan said:


> In J10B and J10 C has the load capacity increased or is it same as J10A..??


It shall have increased load capacity, DSI increased air flow, reduced weight and possible with 3D manufacturing which further reduced structure weight and used of more composite that helps more.


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## Deino

Reportedly J-10C no. 242

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## ZedZeeshan

Beast said:


> It shall have increased load capacity, DSI increased air flow, reduced weight and possible with 3D manufacturing which further reduced structure weight and used of more composite that helps more.


So it means EW suits, Radar, and sensors will be same as J10B...??right???


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## Daniel808

Deino said:


> Reportedly J-10C no. 242
> 
> View attachment 327544



No.242.
Is that mean, 42 Unit Chengdu J-10C already Produced so far?

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## Malik Alashter

What's the differences between the B and the C variants?.


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## Deino

Daniel808 said:


> No.242.
> Is that mean, 42 Unit Chengdu J-10C already Produced so far?



Yes ... The first 2 denotes the batch - here is batch 2 = J-10C - and 42 is the individual number.




Malik Alashter said:


> What's the differences between the B and the C variants?.



Most of all the avionics around the New AESA radar.

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## Deino

Deino said:


> Reportedly J-10C no. 242
> 
> View attachment 327544




I did a rough calculation ... with now confirmed 55 J-10B and - if 2-42 is the most recent one - 42 J-10C being build ... so these are now 97 second generation J-10s.

Concerning their operational units ...

*J-10B:*
- 170. Brigade FTTC with 78x1x serials (confirmed) ... max 7 aircraft (?)
- 2. Division with 10x3x serials (confirmed) ... 24 aircraft (?)
- 19. Division with 30x0x serials (most likely) ... 24 aircraft (?)
= 55 aircraft (would fit to all Batch 01)

*J-10C:*
- 44. Division with 50x5x serials (most likely) ... 24 aircraft (?)
= 24 aircraft + 18 so far not assigned maybe !?

Or did I miss anything?

Deino

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## j20blackdragon

Deino said:


> I did a rough calculation ... with now confirmed 55 J-10B and - if 2-42 is the most recent one - 42 J-10C being build ... so these are now 97 second generation J-10s.
> 
> Concerning their operational units ...
> 
> *J-10B:*
> - 170. Brigade FTTC with 78x1x serials (confirmed) ... max 7 aircraft (?)
> - 2. Division with 10x3x serials (confirmed) ... 24 aircraft (?)
> - 19. Division with 30x0x serials (most likely) ... 24 aircraft (?)
> = 55 aircraft (would fit to all Batch 01)
> 
> *J-10C:*
> - 44. Division with 50x5x serials (most likely) ... 24 aircraft (?)
> = 24 aircraft + 18 so far not assigned maybe !?
> 
> Or did I miss anything?
> 
> Deino



I'm more interested in the engine calculations.

123 AL-31FN Series 3 were purchased in 2011.

~ 90+ engines used for second generation J-10s.

~ 24 engines used for J-20.

How many engines can possibly be left?

Furthermore, how can J-20 and J-10C/D production possibly continue without further engine sales from Russia...unless something else is happening?

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## cirr

Three J-10Cs with code numbers 245-247

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## Deino

cirr said:


> Three J-10Cs with code numbers 245-247


 

Fine ... if batch 02 is as large as batch 01 (with 55´birds) then they are close to batch 03 !

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## j20blackdragon

Approximate AL-31FN Series 3 count:

53 J-10B
45 J-10C
24 J-20

122 engines used up.



If we continue to see aircraft coming out using the AL-31FN Series 3, that means:

1. Russia and China are no longer reporting any news regarding engine deals between Salut and CAC for some reason.

2. China has received licensed production of the engine.

3. China has reversed engineered the engine.

It's one of these options.

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## grey boy 2



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## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> Approximate AL-31FN Series 3 count:
> 
> 53 J-10B
> 45 J-10C
> 24 J-20
> 
> 122 engines used up.
> 
> 
> 
> If we continue to see aircraft coming out using the AL-31FN Series 3, that means:
> 
> 1. Russia and China are no longer reporting any news regarding engine deals between Salut and CAC for some reason.
> 
> 2. China has received licensed production of the engine.
> 
> 3. China has reversed engineered the engine.
> 
> It's one of these options.


 

That's indeed an interesting argument since indeed besiedes the prototypes we have now confirmed 55 J-10B (= batch 01) and now at least 47 J-10C (= batch 02) making 102 J-10B/C.

However I don't think that there are already 12 J-20s ?? ... anyway if indeed "only" 122 AL-31FN were confirmed there could also be a fourth option: 

The engines for the J-20s are from another - still secret - contract of unknown size similar to the first long-secret purchase for the first J-10s.

Deino

PS: ... and with now more than 100 J-10B/C the next question is: where are they all ??? This number is enough for 4 fully equipped regiments !??

Deino

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## ZedZeeshan

Can somebody tells me the difference between J10B and J10C...!!


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## Beast

ZedZeeshan said:


> Can somebody tells me the difference between J10B and J10C...!!


AESA radar ,more superior EW suite and domestic engine with higher thrust. I believe J-10B variant has been abandon and all convert to J-10C

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## Deino

Beast said:


> AESA radar ,more superior EW suite and domestic engine with higher thrust. I believe J-10B variant has been abandon and all convert to J-10C


 

Again a typical unsubstantial claim that is completly contra all evidence: just look at the images above and they are again still powered by AL-31FNs ... maybe You should go to a doctor to check Your eyes but this is as clear as hell NOT a WS-10.

Sometimes I really don't understand how someone can be so stubborn even against all evidence.

Deino


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Again a typical unsubstantial claim that is completly contra all evidence: just look at the images above and they are again still powered by AL-31FNs ... maybe You should go to a doctor to check Your eyes but this is as clear as hell NOT a WS-10.
> 
> Sometimes I really don't understand how someone can be so stubborn even against all evidence.
> 
> Deino


As as I know no J-10B/C has not enter service yet nor participate in any exercise. You can see them in serial number or whatever but fact is non has participate or joined service. W/O the higher trust engine, it will never meet the spec of PLAAF requirement. That is why they are expending the lifespan of AL-31 engine to seep up the induction by tsting out the airframe system before install for higher thrust domestic engine and joining service.

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## Brainsucker

j20blackdragon said:


> I'm more interested in the engine calculations.
> 
> 123 AL-31FN Series 3 were purchased in 2011.
> 
> ~ 90+ engines used for second generation J-10s.
> 
> ~ 24 engines used for J-20.
> 
> How many engines can possibly be left?
> 
> Furthermore, how can J-20 and J-10C/D production possibly continue without further engine sales from Russia...unless something else is happening?



Also, we must aware that they need spare engines. So they can't put all engines into the newly built birds.


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## cirr



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## Deino

Happy National Day ... to all my Chinese friends !

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## Ali Zadi

After J20 pics this looks mehh


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## The Eagle

Happy National day to our Chinese friends.

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## Mentee

Happy National Day to Sino Brothers

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## grey boy 2



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## Deino

Reportedly another J-10 down due to birdstrike ... pilot ejected safely.

http://alert5.com/2016/10/01/j-10-from-plaaf-24th-fighter-division-crashes/

By the way another shot of 2-45:

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## asia2000

Deino said:


> Reportedly another J-10 down due to birdstrike ... pilot ejected safely.
> 
> http://alert5.com/2016/10/01/j-10-from-plaaf-24th-fighter-division-crashes/



Can they put some air intake screen to prevent birds being sucked into the engine?


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## Deino

Deino said:


> ...
> 
> By the way another shot of 2-45:
> 
> View attachment 339630



Just noticed this bird is even 2-49 !


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## grey boy 2

J-10 C

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## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> I'm more interested in the engine calculations.
> 
> 123 AL-31FN Series 3 were purchased in 2011.
> 
> ~ 90+ engines used for second generation J-10s.
> 
> ~ 24 engines used for J-20.
> 
> How many engines can possibly be left?
> 
> Furthermore, how can J-20 and J-10C/D production possibly continue without further engine sales from Russia...unless something else is happening?




Yes indeed an interesting calculation:

Given this order from 2011 and in mind of the first 53 batch 1 J-10B produced (55 - the last two with WS-10B) and now already 49 batch 2 J-10C - therefore 123-102 = 21 - then, there are only 21 engines left.

Extrapolating or reserving 6 for the last 6 remaining J-10Cs batch 2 to be produced - if batch 1 & 2 are the same size - then this would be only 15 engines as a "replacement" or other use.

That's even more interesting - and "confirming" my theory - since if one assumes that the J-20A also uses the AL-31FN series 3, then their powerplants must come from another, still secret contract similar to the original first contract for the J-10.


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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> Yes indeed an interesting calculation:
> 
> Given this order from 2011 and in mind of the first 53 batch 1 J-10B produced (55 - the last two with WS-10B) and now already 49 batch 2 J-10C - therefore 123-102 = 21 - then, there are only 21 engines left.
> 
> Extrapolating or reserving 6 for the last 6 remaining J-10Cs batch 2 to be produced - if batch 1 & 2 are the same size - then this would be only 15 engines as a "replacement" or other use.
> 
> That's even more interesting - and "confirming" my theory - since if one assumes that the J-20A also uses the AL-31FN series 3, then their powerplants must come from another, still secret contract similar to the original first contract for the J-10.



J-10S and J-15 are also consuming AL-31 now


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## Brainsucker

Deino said:


> Yes indeed an interesting calculation:
> 
> Given this order from 2011 and in mind of the first 53 batch 1 J-10B produced (55 - the last two with WS-10B) and now already 49 batch 2 J-10C - therefore 123-102 = 21 - then, there are only 21 engines left.
> 
> Extrapolating or reserving 6 for the last 6 remaining J-10Cs batch 2 to be produced - if batch 1 & 2 are the same size - then this would be only 15 engines as a "replacement" or other use.
> 
> That's even more interesting - and "confirming" my theory - since if one assumes that the J-20A also uses the AL-31FN series 3, then their powerplants must come from another, still secret contract similar to the original first contract for the J-10.



Deino, but what about the spare engine? They can't use all engines to build new fighters aren't they? What happen when the engine need overhaul?


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## Deino

Brainsucker said:


> Deino, but what about the spare engine? They can't use all engines to build new fighters aren't they? What happen when the engine need overhaul?




Exactly my point ... "then this would be only 15 engines as a "replacement" or other use" ! IMO a few too few for about 100 serial aircraft.

Deino

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## Daniel808

Deino said:


> Exactly my point ... "then this would be only 15 engines as a "replacement" or other use" ! IMO a few too few for about 100 serial aircraft.
> 
> Deino




Thanks for the Calculation Mr. @Deino

But based on your Calculation, that's mean the next Chengdu J-10C from Chengdu Factory would use WS-10 Taihang Engine, because there is no more AL-31FN Engine left in China's stock?

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## Deino

IMO it is very likely; yes.

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## sheik

Deino said:


> IMO it is very likely; yes.



Maybe J-20 is actually using some WS-10 variant...


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## nang2

I think that is what C stands for. either Complete or China. 


Deino said:


> IMO it is very likely; yes.


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## Deino

sheik said:


> Maybe J-20 is actually using some WS-10 variant...



Nope


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## Deino

Deino said:


> Happy National Day ... to all my Chinese friends !
> 
> View attachment 339477




And now even larger !

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## 592257001

Deino said:


> And now even larger !
> 
> View attachment 340398



The sweet MAWs are finally back!

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## grey boy 2

J-10C with PL-10 short range missile 
the missile also includes "multi-element imaging infrared seeker with anti-jamming capabilities" and off-boresight attacks.
Read more: https://sputniknews.com/asia/20150917/1027161668/PL-10-Missile.html




This is the most clearest and detailed pictures of PL-10 missile ever seen 这是迄今为止第一张能看到细节的霹雳-10空空导弹照片，可见该导弹采用了特殊外形的尾部气动控制面，同时又明显有燃气舵，可见极为强调机动性能。

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## 星海军事

592257001 said:


> The sweet MAWs are finally back!



That is an old photo of 2·01 (aka 1051)

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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> That is an old photo of 2·01 (aka 1051)




So in fact the very first J-10C !?


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## Deino

By the way .. any news of the rumoured J-10D ???


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## Akasa

Deino said:


> By the way .. any news of the rumoured J-10D ???



I highly doubt that the rumor was in any way substantiative to begin with.


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## Deino

SinoSoldier said:


> I highly doubt that the rumor was in any way substantiative to begin with.




So You think the D is a hoax ??


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## Akasa

Deino said:


> So You think the D is a hoax ??



I don't know, but another J-10 version seems so anachronistic with the advent of 5th generation aircraft.


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## cirr

http://video.weibo.com/show?fid=1034:459dd3dfb37068ea58454b7d46f616a0&type=mp4

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## cirr

10.10

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## Beast

WS-10B or WS-10G(14000kg thrust). I think J-10C will officially be combat ready end of these year. 

Is it possible for these J-10C with WS-10B has super cruise capabilities?

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## Deino

Interesting, very much indeed, but this is a J-10B and not a C.
How recent is this image a how likely could this be 154 or 155?

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## Deino

Some nice images including C in ferry- configuration...

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## 艹艹艹



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## grey boy 2

J-20. J-16, J-10D will be the main force of the PLAAF 
What is J-10D? (pupu曾经说过中国空军未来三大主力是J20 J16和J10D 那么J10D到底指的是什么？)




Excuse my poor translation
Kudos to 611 Design Institute
Professional indeed
Avoiding the problems to deal with F-35 by not looking for stealth ability 
Using new technologies and advance avionics to compensate the lack of stealth features
Can use the J-10B/C production lines as well
Short legged problem solved by using the much more powerful WS-15 engine

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## MystryMan

Pardon my ignorance but can anyone kindly elaborate what are the main differences between J-10B and C version?


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## cirr

MystryMan said:


> Pardon my ignorance but can anyone kindly elaborate what are the main differences between J-10B and C version?



Much better radar and avionics for the latter.

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## Mentee

grey boy 2 said:


> J-20. J-16, J-10D will be the main force of the PLAAF
> What is J-10D? (pupu曾经说过中国空军未来三大主力是J20 J16和J10D 那么J10D到底指的是什么？)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excuse my poor translation
> Kudos to 611 Design Institute
> Professional indeed
> Avoiding the problems to deal with F-35 by not looking for stealth ability
> Using new technologies and advance avionics to compensate the lack of stealth features
> Can use the J-10B/C production lines as well
> Short legged problem solved by using the much more powerful WS-15 engine


Hi, what is the loiter time of j10 B with and without drop tanks


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## grey boy 2

Mentee said:


> Hi, what is the loiter time of j10 B with and without drop tanks


Maybe @Deino can has a better answer to your question bro
@Deino please shade some light, thanks

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## MystryMan

cirr said:


> Much better radar and avionics for the latter.



Sir, much better radar means AESA? And avionics level of J-10C will be comparable to e.g: F-16 Blk-52+ or Blk-60 or Rafale?


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## ZedZeeshan

MystryMan said:


> Sir, much better radar means AESA? And avionics level of J-10C will be comparable to e.g: F-16 Blk-52+ or Blk-60 or Rafale?


It will be advance then F16 block 60...dont underestimate Chinese...they are getting better by every passing day..

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## princefaisal

J-10D with CFT's will have longer ferry range than J-10C. So better to wait a little bit more.


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## Ultima Thule

princefaisal said:


> J-10D with CFT's will have longer ferry range than J-10C. So better to wait a little bit more.


there are no J-10D right now bro


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## cirr

MystryMan said:


> Sir, much better radar means AESA? And avionics level of J-10C will be comparable to e.g: F-16 Blk-52+ or Blk-60 or Rafale?



Avionics, comparable to F-35's, i.e. having specs and features commonly associated with avionics of 5th gen jets

Radar, AESA which will go on display at the coming Zhuhai Airshow. Looking out for specs and other details.


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## WarFariX

someone knows specs of J10C....especially payload and thrust


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## ZedZeeshan

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> someone knows specs of J10C....especially payload and thrust


Yes Chinese...


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## WarFariX

ZedZeeshan said:


> Yes Chinese...



i am asking about payload bro..not country XD


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## MystryMan

cirr said:


> Avionics, comparable to F-35's, i.e. having specs and features commonly associated with avionics of 5th gen jets
> 
> Radar, AESA which will go on display at the coming Zhuhai Airshow. Looking out for specs and other details.



If your information is correct then only thing missing will be option of CFT in making this a true 4.5+ generation aircraft. 
Will be ideal for PAF ROSE Mirages replacement.
@MastanKhan , @Quwa, @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## Akasa

MystryMan said:


> If your information is correct then only thing missing will be option of CFT in making this a true 4.5+ generation aircraft.
> Will be ideal for PAF ROSE Mirages replacement.
> @MastanKhan , @Quwa, @Bilal Khan (Quwa)



When was it ever decided that CFTs are a requirement for a "4.5 generation" aircraft?

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## Ultima Thule

MystryMan said:


> If your information is correct then only thing missing will be option of CFT in making this a true 4.5+ generation aircraft.
> Will be ideal for PAF ROSE Mirages replacement.
> @MastanKhan , @Quwa, @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


bro does EF-2000 have CFT, does Su-35 have CFT, does RAFALE have CFT, does GRIPPEN-NG have CFT, only 4.5 generation jet with CFT is F-16blk-52 and 60


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## 592257001

MystryMan said:


> If your information is correct then only thing missing will be option of CFT in making this a true 4.5+ generation aircraft.
> Will be ideal for PAF ROSE Mirages replacement.
> @MastanKhan , @Quwa, @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


CFTs are suppose to extend the "time on station" duration for fighters and attackers. Though videos of J-10's CFT variants have been disclosed officially through wind-tunnel testing many years ago, it looks like PLAAF and PLAN never took real interest in such variant due to two key points:

1. Although multi-role in nature, both PLAAF and PLAN want to use J-10 primarily as a lightweight, nimble dog fighter. It has been used mostly in areas close to home.

2. Whenever PLAAF/PLAN wants to engage in long-range sorties, say outside of the first-island-chain, it has plenty of potent long range fighter/attackers to choose from: JH-7(A), J-11(B/D), Su-30MKK(2), J-16 and the newly inducted J-20.

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## DCS

Drop tanks have the advantage of being jettisoned in combat. CFTs can dump fuel, but the drag and weight penalty remains.

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## MystryMan

SinoSoldier said:


> When was it ever decided that CFTs are a requirement for a "4.5 generation" aircraft?



Perhaps I should have said one more feature (CFT) to make it more suitable for deep strike and attractive for PAF (as our F-16 Blk52 have CFT). So it would be comparable or surpass it in all aspects. However thanks for pointing it out.


----------



## Bratva

ZedZeeshan said:


> It will be advance then F16 block 60...dont underestimate Chinese...they are getting better by every passing day..





cirr said:


> *Avionics, comparable to F-35'*s, i.e. having specs and features commonly associated with avionics of 5th gen jets
> 
> Radar, AESA which will go on display at the coming Zhuhai Airshow. Looking out for specs and other details.



On what basis you say this thing ?



MystryMan said:


> Sir, much better radar means AESA? And avionics level of J-10C will be comparable to e.g: F-16 Blk-52+ or Blk-60 or Rafale?



In its present configuration J-10 C overall doesnot come close to Present Rafael, or Eurofighter in anyway. Be realistic when you make certain claims

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## dingyibvs

It's hard to pass judgment with such scant data from the PLA. With that said, the J-10 has a much bigger nose cone than the Rafael and can fit a much larger radar, and the PLAAF has as much if not more experience with ESA radars than the French, so it's not unreasonable to conclude that it's very possible that the J-10C can have superior avionics than the Rafael.

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## Akasa

Bratva said:


> In its present configuration J-10 C overall doesnot come close to Present Rafael, or Eurofighter in anyway. Be realistic when you make certain claims



I would disagree. The J-10C generally falls into the league of the Rafale & Eurofighter if we base our judgment on the scope of its upgrades and enhancements. For instance, all three aforementioned platforms feature various airframe enhancements (to the extent of RAM application and composites), while in the electronics sector they all (or will eventually) adopt AESA radar, integrated EW/ECM suites, helmet-mounted sights, and incrementally-upgraded software packages.

Granted, technical nuances do exist, but whether they elicit a significant leap/reduction in capability of one platform vis-a-vis another is not for us to decide or analyze.


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## Bratva

SinoSoldier said:


> I would disagree. The J-10C generally falls into the league of the Rafale & Eurofighter if we base our judgment on the scope of its upgrades and enhancements. For instance, all three aforementioned platforms feature various airframe enhancements (to the extent of RAM application and composites), while in the electronics sector they all (or will eventually) adopt AESA radar, integrated EW/ECM suites, helmet-mounted sights, and incrementally-upgraded software packages.
> 
> Granted, technical nuances do exist, but whether they elicit a significant leap/reduction in capability of one platform vis-a-vis another is not for us to decide or analyze.



You see you are limiting your scope. Overall package includes armaments, avionics specs and reliability, engine factor. The level of net centric sensors and interoperatibility of varioua sensors inside the package

We all know the specs of rafael and eurofighter rugged avionics. The level of their net centric approch and their reliability as well their specs.

Having aesa ew irst or others sensors in an airplane doesnot make it compareable to current standard rafael or eurofighter. Can you say with certainity that chinese avionics radar and electronic warfare systema are at par spec wise with the GaN based aesa used in rafael or with Eurofighter ? Or the specs of chinese ew systems are at par with Spectra or Britecloud ew systems ? Eurofighter is using a hanging disposable ew system

What are the specs of chinese AESA? Are they using GaN bawed aesa?

I have not seen chinese ew systems reached upto the french or european ew system capabilities at all.

Now comes the IRST. We all know the specs of Rafael OST and Eurofighter Pirate. Does J 10 irst comes to the level and reliability of these systems ?

And other thing is the armament package and PODS and encrypted datalinks, IFF used by european fighters and J 10 C. We all know who is superior here


The point is J 10 C is where Rafael or Eurofighter was in 2005. Making their initial flights with all those composites and what not. So no overall you can not compare J 10 C with current standard european packages based on wild wild west speculations and assumptions that chinese can do this and that with such finesss in their first attempt without any offical specs to back it up


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## DCS

Bratva said:


> Can you say with certainity that chinese avionics radar and electronic warfare systema are at par spec wise with the GaN based aesa used in rafael or with Eurofighter ?
> 
> What are the specs of chinese AESA? Are they using GaN bawed aesa?



RBE-2AA and CAPTOR-E both currently utilize GaAs TRMs.

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## Bratva

DCS said:


> RBE-2AA and CAPTOR-E both currently utilize GaAs TRMs.



Thanks for the correction. So it took EU countries a healthy decade to comeup with a Competitive AESA along with the Processors. 

China started its AESA development in 2010 right ? with the development of J-20 ?


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## DCS

Bratva said:


> Thanks for the correction. So it took EU countries a healthy decade to comeup with a Competitive AESA along with the Processors.
> 
> China started its AESA development in 2010 right ? with the development of J-20 ?



I cannot be certain on when Chinese AESA development began. The Type 346 AESA deployed on the 052C destroyer began development in the late 1980s. The J-10B AESA program began in 2001 and was completed by 2008. The J-10B served as a test bed for many J-20 technologies.

There may be earlier projects, especially with early warning radars, but these are the only ones I am familiar with.

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## Akasa

Bratva said:


> You see you are limiting your scope. Overall package includes armaments, avionics specs and reliability, engine factor. The level of net centric sensors and interoperatibility of varioua sensors inside the package



Which is generally what my assessment included.



Bratva said:


> We all know the specs of rafael and eurofighter rugged avionics. The level of their net centric approch and their reliability as well their specs.



Do we? Have we got the range, power output, scanning field, T/R module count, etc., of the RBE2 and the Euroradar Captor? How exactly do you quantify "net centric approach" and/or "reliability" when neither of the two are known to public eye?



Bratva said:


> Having aesa ew irst or others sensors in an airplane doesnot make it compareable to current standard rafael or eurofighter. Can you say with certainity that chinese avionics radar and electronic warfare systema are at par spec wise with the GaN based aesa used in rafael or with Eurofighter ? Or the specs of chinese ew systems are at par with Spectra or Britecloud ew systems ? Eurofighter is using a hanging disposable ew system



That's interesting, because on what basis, then, are you claiming that the J-10B/C "cannot come close"? I agree that the virtue of having an AESA system does not make an aircraft inherently comparable to another that does, but my assessment did not stop there. On a holistic basis, in which we take a look at the upgrades pertaining to its avionics, weaponry, powerplant, airframe, and on-board amenities, the J-10C does share a lot of common ground with its Rafale/Eurofighter counterparts.



Bratva said:


> I have not seen chinese ew systems reached upto the french or european ew system capabilities at all.



How can you make such a claim when you don't even know the full capabilities of French or other European EW systems?



Bratva said:


> Now comes the IRST. We all know the specs of Rafael OST and Eurofighter Pirate. Does J 10 irst comes to the level and reliability of these systems ?



We don't know the specifications, but suffice it to say that all of the aforementioned aircraft do have this system. Hence, barring any massive discrepancies between the capabilities of their IRST systems (there shouldn't be), all three aircraft should be generally comparable in this sector. Of course, there would be differences, but none so significant that would render a general comparison unreasonable.



Bratva said:


> And other thing is the armament package and PODS and encrypted datalinks, IFF used by european fighters and J 10 C. *We all know who is superior here*



Really? How would you know? Have you any specifications pertaining to Chinese/European systems? Do you even know how to properly assess the parameters you mentioned?



Bratva said:


> The point is J 10 C is where Rafael or Eurofighter was in 2005. Making their initial flights with all those composites and what not. So no overall you can not compare J 10 C with current standard european packages based on wild wild west speculations and assumptions that chinese can do this and that with such finesss in their first attempt *without any offical specs to back it up*



Correct me if my memory falters, but it was you who initially claimed that the J-10C cannot compete with the Eurofighter or Rafale. The onus of proof lies with the claimant.



Bratva said:


> China started its AESA development in 2010 right ? with the development of J-20 ?



The first airborne Chinese AESA radar went into service aboard the KJ-2000 AWACS in 2003. Subsequently, various AESA radars from multiple institutions were deployed on the J-10C, J-16, J-15A, J-11D, J-20, KJ-200, KJ-500, and various helicopters.

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## HAIDER



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## cirr



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## Deino

cirr said:


>




Ohhh You made my day again !!

Exactly like I predicted since so long - and in return received my typical bashing from my most favourtite member here with his claim that the J-10B is not and will never be operational !!! - a J-10B assigned to the 170. Brigade !

Thanks a lot.

Deino

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## HRK

Deino said:


> J-10B is not and will never be operational !!!



plz explain the reason ...


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## Deino

HRK said:


> plz explain the reason ...




This is not my claim: Since I am here registrated at PDF I'm in a constant "discussion" (to say it politely) with @Beast where he claims the J-10B with its AL-31FN Series 3 is a failure, it is not and will never be operational (since it has not officially taken part in exercises and being shown in the media) it will not even be accepted by the PLAAF since they will wait for the final J-10C + WS-10G.

The funny thing: He has no explanation, other than the fact that I am a stupid foreigner with no knowledge in PLAAF-matters. All so far seen and delivered J-10Bs even if spotting a number are solely a waste ...

Again, not my claim ... maybe You ask him for an explanation.

Deino

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## raazh

Hi, is there any online video where we can see aggressive maneuvering by J10, any Air show or any other occassion ? Please share the link. Thanks


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## HRK

Deino said:


> This is not my claim: Since I am here registrated at PDF I'm in a constant "discussion" (to say it politely) with @Beast where he claims the J-10B with its AL-31FN Series 3 is a failure, it is not and will never be operational (since it has not officially taken part in exercises and being shown in the media) it will not even be accepted by the PLAAF since they will wait for the final J-10C + WS-10G.
> 
> The funny thing: He has no explanation, other than the fact that I am a stupid foreigner with no knowledge in PLAAF-matters. All so far seen and delivered J-10Bs even if spotting a number are solely a waste ...
> 
> Again, not my claim ... maybe You ask him for an explanation.
> 
> Deino



Nah if something is coming from 'Deino' it worth noting .... otherwise it will be a worthless exercise of kissing 100 frogs ....


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## cirr

“JSOW-ER“

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## 帅的一匹

Beautiful


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## Dil Pakistan

@cirr; @Deino; @wanglaokan; @Chinese-Dragon 

Just a question: Can J-10 be designed into a twin engine jet - similar to F-18.

It will have a huge utility in both land and sea roles. Will be a competitor for EF Typhoon and French Rafales...!!

Any thoughts..???


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## Deino

That would have maybe been an option in it's early days - and there were several of these at first J-10B and later Super-10 called concepts with two tails (IMO a quite handsome design !) - but now I can't think any reason to invest in a twin-engine J-10XL or so ... for that the design itself is too dated.

Deino

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## aliaselin

Well CETC will show export version of AESA radar this time, and we will know the lower bound of the performance for Chinese AESA radar on Nov. 1st

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## 592257001

Dil Pakistan said:


> @cirr; @Deino; @wanglaokan; @Chinese-Dragon
> 
> Just a question: Can J-10 be designed into a twin engine jet - similar to F-18.
> 
> It will have a huge utility in both land and sea roles. Will be a competitor for EF Typhoon and French Rafales...!!
> 
> Any thoughts..???



Canards+Twin Engine....Hmm, isn't that what J-20 is?


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## Dil Pakistan

592257001 said:


> Canards+Twin Engine....Hmm, isn't that what J-20 is?



Not really.

J-20 is a heavy end fighter; J-10 is medium weight.

J-20 is stealth; J-10 is not

J-20 possess less manoeuvrability; J-10 is much more agile and manoeuvrable.


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> “JSOW-ER“



What are the mass & dimensions of the "Sino-JSOW-ER"?

@星海军事


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## SQ8

Deino said:


> This is not my claim: Since I am here registrated at PDF I'm in a constant "discussion" (to say it politely) with @Beast where he claims the J-10B with its AL-31FN Series 3 is a failure, it is not and will never be operational (since it has not officially taken part in exercises and being shown in the media) it will not even be accepted by the PLAAF since they will wait for the final J-10C + WS-10G.
> 
> The funny thing: He has no explanation, other than the fact that I am a stupid foreigner with no knowledge in PLAAF-matters. All so far seen and delivered J-10Bs even if spotting a number are solely a waste ...
> 
> Again, not my claim ... maybe You ask him for an explanation.
> 
> Deino


Dude is a nobody. Just scrounges around Chinese Forums and picks off stuff from their long time members to try and pass off as insider knowledge. But we do let him post.. as a joke on the rest of you

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## Deino

Hey, anyone noticed, that our friend at Zhuhai with the number "10537" is actually J10B0117 !

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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> Hey, anyone noticed, that our friend at Zhuhai with the number "10537" is actually J10B0117 !
> 
> View attachment 347901
> View attachment 347902



good catch, on the wing pylon.


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## Deino

The Eagle said:


> good catch, on the wing pylon.




Indeed ! Do we have an image of J-10B 1-17 in yellow primer with red number ??


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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> Indeed ! Do we have an image of J-10B 1-17 in yellow primer with red number ??



In my search, I have, 101, 102, 103, 106, 110, 111, 122 even 207 but this 1-17 is a mystery.


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## Deino

The Eagle said:


> In my search, I have, 101, 102, 103, 106, 110, 111, 122 even 207 but this 1-17 is a mystery.




Maybe @hk299792458 ?!


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## DJ_Viper

SinoSoldier said:


> What are the mass & dimensions of the "Sino-JSOW-ER"?
> 
> @星海军事



Do you or @Deino know about the range, lock-on and track capability of the AESA mounted on the J-10? Thanks


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## Deino

Sadly no !


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## grey boy 2



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## cirr

Deino said:


> Hey, anyone noticed, that our friend at Zhuhai with the number "10537" is actually J10B0117 !
> 
> View attachment 347901
> View attachment 347902



batch 01, the 17th bird

J-10B 78019 





J-10C 78XXX

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## grey boy 2

Newest J-10B in training mode CCTV 最新机批量服役！中国空军歼10B训练画面曝光

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## WarFariX

what update do we have on j10c progress


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## j20blackdragon

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> what update do we have on j10c progress



J-10C is in service. Notice the yellow serial numbers on the vertical stabilizer of the J-10C posted by cirr.

That means the AESA radar is also in service. 



cirr said:


> J-10C 78XXX

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## Zhu Rong Zheng Yang

Very sad news. 

1.) J-10A acrobatic team -- female combat pilot Ms. YU XU passed away. 
R.I.P.

Let me pay my utmost respect to you. 
*All patriotic Chinese across the globe will always remember your unmeasurable sacrifice for PRC*. 


*J-10A acrobatic team -- female combat pilot Ms. YU XU*













2.) We still remember J-15A carrier combat pilot Mr. ZHANG CHAO as well. 
R.I.P.

Let me pay my utmost respect to you both. 
Again, ... ...
*All patriotic Chinese across the globe will always remember your unmeasurable sacrifice for PRC*. 


*J-15A carrier combat pilot Mr. ZHANG CHAO*

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## Beast

Zhu Rong Zheng Yang said:


> Very sad news.
> 
> 1.) J-10A acrobatic team -- female combat pilot Ms. YU XU passed away.
> R.I.P.
> 
> Let me pay my utmost respect to you.
> *All patriotic Chinese across the globe will always remember your unmeasurable sacrifice for PRC*.
> 
> 
> *J-10A acrobatic team -- female combat pilot Ms. YU XU*
> View attachment 351522
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 351523
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2.) We still remember J-15A carrier combat pilot Mr. ZHANG CHAO as well.
> R.I.P.
> 
> Let me pay my utmost respect to you both.
> Again, ... ...
> *All patriotic Chinese across the globe will always remember your unmeasurable sacrifice for PRC*.
> 
> 
> *J-15A carrier combat pilot Mr. ZHANG CHAO*
> View attachment 351524
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 351525


How did the Xu Yu died?


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## terranMarine

Beast said:


> How did the Xu Yu died?



I heard the ejection failed, the other one survived with injuries.


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## nang2

terranMarine said:


> I heard the ejection failed, the other one survived with injuries.


Ejection was successful. She hit another plane after ejection. It was a team training session. Multiple planes in close formation.

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## Beast

terranMarine said:


> I heard the ejection failed, the other one survived with injuries.


She is the cover page of J-10 female acrobatic pilot team. I expect her to retire and do desktop job like Yang Liwei. If she died, it will be disaster for China trying to promote PLAAF.


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## nang2

Beast said:


> She is the cover page of J-10 female acrobatic pilot team. I expect her to retire and do desktop job like Yang Liwei. If she died, it will be disaster for China trying to promote PLAAF.


It is not a disaster. It is just a tragedy. It makes us appreciate more of those who risk their lives for the safety and well-being of others.

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## terranMarine

nang2 said:


> Ejection was successful. She hit another plane after ejection. It was a team training session. Multiple planes in close formation.


There's always a high risk when flying in formation for the acrobatic team. RIP

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## Zhu Rong Zheng Yang

Beast said:


> How did the Xu Yu died?



She passed away during extremely tight formation J-10A * Acrobatic Precision training session.
The distance between aircraft could be as tight as 3 meters apart.
She was not the pilot. Perhaps, she was the instructor.
She was sitting on the rear 2nd seat.
While she was ejecting, her body collided with the other J-10A flying behind her.



> Born in 1986, Yu was from Chongzhou city in southwest China's Sichuan Province.
> She joined the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force in September 2005,
> and was serving as a flight squadron leader.



As you know, my written Chinese language skill is worst than kindergarten level.
Please check PRC 军事 forums. And bring some pictures if you can as Tributes to her.


*My Tributes to Hero PLAAF pilot YU XU*






*
My Tributes to Hero PLAAF pilot ZHANG CHAO*

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## Beast

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/soci...ale-pilot-j-10-fighter-jets-dies-air-accident






RIP YU XU

It was a disaster for PLAAF promotion. PLAAF shall avoid her high risk job in the first place when they decide to make her the cover girl of PLAAF.


----------



## nang2

Beast said:


> http://www.scmp.com/news/china/soci...ale-pilot-j-10-fighter-jets-dies-air-accident
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RIP YU XU
> 
> It was a disaster for PLAAF promotion. PLAAF shall avoid her high risk job in the first place when they decide to make her the cover girl of PLAAF.


Please, don't insult the talented and courageous fighter pilot. She was nobody's cover girl.

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## grey boy 2

Next time, either open a new formal thread for this tragedy or don't post at all


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## Beast

nang2 said:


> Please, don't insult the talented and courageous fighter pilot. She was nobody's cover girl.


When did I insult her? Dont put words into my mouth. Piece of Liar!


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## 帅的一匹

she died with glory

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## sinait

very sad indeed, RIP


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## WarFariX

grey boy 2 said:


> Next time, either open a new formal thread for this tragedy or don't post at all


correct..these things must be done on new threads....all of the serious discussion goes down for months.....This is a very sad moment....[emoji20] [emoji20]

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## Ali Zadi

RIP YU XU she was too pretty and too young to die.


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## grey boy 2

J-10B from the north unveiled for the 1st time 北方的歼-10B首次曝光





Comparing A with B

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-10B from the north unveiled for the 1st time 北方的歼-10B首次曝光
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comparing A with B




Yes indeed ... 170 Brigade ...

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## j20blackdragon

I finally have close-up, high-resolution pictures of the AL-31FN Series 3 from J-10B #10537.

Close enough for me to see the nozzle petal shape and arrangement.






Now I am certain something strange is going on with the J-10B/C engine.

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## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> I finally have close-up, high-resolution pictures of the AL-31FN Series 3 from J-10B #10537.
> 
> Close enough for me to see the nozzle petal shape and arrangement.
> ...
> Now I am certain something strange is going on with the J-10B/C engine.
> ...




Sorry, but IMO they are not very much different. at least nor shape-wise ... care to explain what You mean ?


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## grey boy 2

J-10C appeared at training military base, looks like will be starting delivery soon (中国空军试训基地现歼10C战机：即将批量交付)

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## j20blackdragon

Let's use a slightly different angle.

J-10B #10537.






Unmarked J-10B.






I'm willing to say that there are no Russian engines (in the AL-31 family) with petal shape and arrangement as the picture shown directly above. I have walkaround pictures of the AL-31F, AL-31FM1, 117S, AL-31FN, and now AL-31FN Series 3.

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## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> Let's use a slightly different angle.
> 
> J-10B #10537.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unmarked J-10B.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm willing to say that there are no Russian engines (in the AL-31 family) with petal shape and arrangement as the picture shown directly above. I have walkaround pictures of the AL-31F, AL-31FM1, 117S, AL-31FN, and now AL-31FN Series 3.




Honestly ... they are 100% the same: The number of pedals, the intersections, the markings, even the always two screws on the forward ring, the blueish colour due to heating and so on. The only thing I notice different is that on top these inner pedals look like bending outward (since the nozzle is fully open) whereas on the bottom they bent inwards (since the nozzle is closed). A feature that can be seen also on this engine on the Flankers.

Honestly from these to images to deduct that this should be a secret Chinese engine is way beyond ...


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## j20blackdragon

Let's start with the AL-31FN as an example. I want people to focus on the section of the nozzle with blue petals. The petals are not always blue. But they do happen to be blue in most of the older pictures of the AL-31FN.






Notice that there is a 'double layer' arrangement of petals in this section. There is a top layer and a bottom layer. I've highlighted the two layers in the picture above. All Russian engines in the AL-31 family have this 'double layer' characteristic as far as I know.

The 'double layer' arrangement is also present in the AL-31FN Series 3, which showed up at Zhuhai 2016.






Now look at the engine on the unmarked J-10B below. Do you see the 'double layer' petal arrangement? I sure don't.










It is important to understand that the same engine coming from the same production line should have no differences at all. The engine would be assembled from the same number of parts using the same production process. Therefore, even slight differences are suspicious.

The important thing is that the pictures are up for all to see. I want people to look at the engines and come to their own conclusions.


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## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> Now look at the engine on the unmarked J-10B below. Do you see the 'double layer' petal arrangement? I sure don't.
> 
> It is important to understand that the same engine coming from the same production line should have no differences at all. The engine would be assembled from the same number of parts using the same production process. Therefore, even slight differences are suspicious.
> 
> The important thing is that the pictures are up for all to see. I want people to look at the engines and come to their own conclusions.




I surely do ??? Not sure why You don't !!! They are exactly the same ... and even more different to any WS-10. So how You can assume this to be a Chinese engines I really don't get ?

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## Pepsi Cola

I agree with Deino on this one.

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## 帅的一匹

Why don't they fit the the damn WS10 on J10c? Maybe we shall not expect too much from WS10, just wait for WS15. If they can't put WS10 on J10b/c, it means it isn't good enough for single engine fighter. Long way to go.


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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> Why don't they fit the the damn WS10 on J10c? Maybe we shall not expect too much from WS10, just wait for WS15. If they can't put WS10 on J10b/c, it means it isn't good enough for single engine fighter. Long way to go.


It's not just simple as you think. If chief designer of J-20 Yang Wei can be sack too. You can imagine the powers struggle behind AVIC.

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## kuge

Beast said:


> It's not just simple as you think. If chief designer of J-20 Yang Wei can be sack too. You can imagine the powers struggle behind AVIC.


so power struggle is more important than engineering decision?


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## Beast

kuge said:


> so power struggle is more important than engineering decision?


This is how things work on top(sometimes). Imagine all the while u gain the fame and top, suddenly you become second to others. People will fight back to cling onto that past glory. 

Western Europe could have just buy Ukraine An-70 transport plane and save them all the money and trouble of A400 but it did not happen. 
Same as Vietnam war could end earlier but it did not as US weapon supplier do not like it.


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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> It's not just simple as you think. If chief designer of J-20 Yang Wei can be sack too. You can imagine the powers struggle behind AVIC.


Too much red tape and internal struggle


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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> Too much red tape and internal struggle


I will just say Shenyang aviation is very powerful in having say in PLAAF. Despite under the same umbrella of AVIC, it is not as united as it seems to be.

Death of song wencong is also a blow to Chengdu aviation having a very senior figure losing a voice in PLAAF. See the timing song wencong death and yang wei sacking is quite close.


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## Deino

First time a J-10 - here a J-10B - spotted armed with an YJ-91 ARM.

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## grey boy 2

J-10B firing YJ-91 anti-radiation supersonic cruise missile

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## rashid.sarwar

What are the main differences between J10 B and J10 C

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## Deino

Better now

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## Deino

Seems as if the 44th Division's eagle head is grey now ?!

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## Zhu Rong Zheng Yang

_On post # 8169 above ... ...

Notice those Big Eagle Logo on the J-10A tails, ... ...
Those 2 J-10As above belong to the Golden Helmet and/or Golden Arrow winning pilots. 








===

Usually, we are way too focus on the PLA hardware developments. 
The PLA Human Operators Training and Developments in the 
( Army, Air Force, and Navy ) + ( Rocket Force, and Strategic Supplies ) 
are much more critical and important than the PLA hardware developments. 

===

1*) Could anyone find nice stories on individual PLAAF Golden Helmet pilots 
struggle to maintain their Top Spot rankings ??

2*) It is almost at the end of the year. 
-- Is there any news on this yr 2016 Annual Golden Helmet Freestyle Combat Competition ??


*2015 Annual Golden Helmet Freestyle Combat Competition*




_

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## j20blackdragon

Deino said:


> View attachment 352145



That is not a bottom layer but rather a crease or bend in the metal. There is only one layer. The J-20 engine shows this very well.


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## j20blackdragon

j20blackdragon said:


> Let's start with the AL-31FN as an example. I want people to focus on the section of the nozzle with blue petals. The petals are not always blue. But they do happen to be blue in most of the older pictures of the AL-31FN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice that there is a 'double layer' arrangement of petals in this section. There is a top layer and a bottom layer. I've highlighted the two layers in the picture above. All Russian engines in the AL-31 family have this 'double layer' characteristic as far as I know.
> 
> The 'double layer' arrangement is also present in the AL-31FN Series 3, which showed up at Zhuhai 2016.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now look at the engine on the unmarked J-10B below. Do you see the 'double layer' petal arrangement? I sure don't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is important to understand that the same engine coming from the same production line should have no differences at all. The engine would be assembled from the same number of parts using the same production process. Therefore, even slight differences are suspicious.
> 
> The important thing is that the pictures are up for all to see. I want people to look at the engines and come to their own conclusions.



It is one layer. Furthermore, there is an obvious 'bend' in the metal petal at the trailing edge, a characteristic not present in Russian AL-31.






Look closer.






My highlights added below.






Please note that the trailing edge of the 'blue petals' on the Russian AL-31FN Series 3 is perfectly straight. There is no mechanism that would allow the metal to 'bend' at all.

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## Deino

Again like I already explained ! The one engine has its nozzle fully open (as such this layer is not bent) whereas the other is closed (so this layer is bent).

@j20blackdragon
Please don't take this as an offence and I admire Your - IMO desperate - attempt to find out something mysterious in these images. This image is much too blurred. Why to You ignore the high-resolution, full size ones I podsted and post such a blurred one. It's shown actually nothing ... 

Honestly are You really that much obsessed or desperate to find a secret WS-1X-engine that You ignore all similarities and pick out the slightest bit of difference only to assume it is a different engine?? Look at the size of the pedals, the nuts, bolts and screws ... all the same and You pick out a slightly different bent ?

We know - even officially confirmed - that the J-10B and C uses an AL-31FN series 3, so there is nothing, really NOTHING special between the J-10B engines already seen and this engine seen in Zhuhai.
Concerning this blurred image of a 200x-prototype, we all know that they were experimenting with some sort of layer, cover or whatever to hide the true identity of the engine, but the latest J-20S are again showing a regular AL-nozzle.

Sorry to disappoint You and I too would be glad if the J-20 would use a Chinese engine ... it simply does not, does not yet and that's not an offence, not an insult against all achievements China reached in recent years. It is simply a fact.


Deino

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## Deino

2x A & 3x B ...

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## j20blackdragon

Deino said:


> Again like I already explained ! The one engine has its nozzle fully open (as such this layer is not bent) whereas the other is closed (so this layer is bent).



You don't get it. There is no mechanism that would allow a straight piece of metal to bend at all. It doesn't matter if the nozzle is open or closed. That section of the nozzle (the blue petals) doesn't move to begin with.






The interesting thing is that you highlighted the 'bend' yourself in your own drawing. Notice that the 'red' section in your drawing juts out at a different angle. You did the drawing, not me. You noticed the 'bend' too, otherwise you wouldn't have drawn it like that.






Once again, the same engines coming from the same production line should look exactly the same. It makes no sense for the manufacturer Salut to manufacture one batch of engines one way, and another batch a completely different way. It costs money to make different parts. And yes, small differences do matter.

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## Deino

I agree that there is a difference, a subtle, small, minor difference, but I really don't get what You want to say in conclusion??

Do You assume it is a secret Chinese WS-1X or a Chinese AL-31FN ?? Look at ALL, really all other details ... it is an AL-31FN and even more Your image is much too blurred ...


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## Zarvan

J-10B carried YJ-91 anti-radiation missile hits the radar target in Red Sword exercise.

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## Beast



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## teddy

Beast said:


>


Here says due to lack of fund, the project of J10 was nearly cancel, Chengdu aircraft tried to maintain the research by manufacturing and selling motorcycle. At 90's due to the collapse of Soviet union, the Su27 became available, Chinese air force turned their eyes to Su27, and stop funding the J10 project. But suddenly, an offer came from Pakistan saved this project. A bunch of 20 fighter aircraft J7, and Join development of JF17, provided funds to Chengdu aircraft company to hold the breath of J10 project.

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## Maxpane

Really pakistan is interested again ???


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## teddy

Maxpane said:


> Really pakistan is interested again ???


I think Pakistan was never interested at J10. Since they got F16 already.


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## Maxpane

teddy said:


> I think Pakistan was never interested at J10. Since they got F16 already.


So what about now bro?


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## Deino

For all, who still have problems to differ between an AL-31F/FN and a WS-10 ...

http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2081101-1-1.html

Deino

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## grey boy 2

They said this is the newest pictures of J-10B?

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> They said this is the newest pictures of J-10B?




No, this image was already posted on 29. September 2015.

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## grey boy 2

Cockpit of J-10B from the Air Show China (10B座仓图, credits to CD:peter_rong)

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## Deino

Would love to know the unit ...

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## Deino

J-10C + PL-15 (the one in the J-20's bay) ....

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## 帅的一匹

What a beauty!

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## grey boy 2

J-10B night exercise unveiled for the 1st time (最新的解放军歼10B图片曝光，显示其已经进行夜间起降训练，机身上编队灯清晰可见非常好看！歼10B已经大批量装备我军各个部队，形成战斗力)

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## grey boy 2

J-10A the high plateau defenders (守卫祖国蓝天的红土高原之鹰)

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## Zarvan

J-10 C ???

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## Deino

Yes, but as far as I remember an older image !

By the way since we are already close to the same number of batch 02 (49 ?) aircraft as the batch 01 (55) had, are there any hint in regard to batch 03 ?

Deino


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## grey boy 2

J-10C

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## grey boy 2

J-10C

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## cirr

grey boy 2 said:


> J-10C



Between160 and 180 J-10B/C by the end of 2017?

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> Between160 and 180 J-10B/C by the end of 2017?



By which the J-10D would finally show up, presumably?


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## 帅的一匹

cirr said:


> Between160 and 180 J-10B/C by the end of 2017?


That's nearly the scale of a middle country airforce.

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> Many J-10B (解放军新型歼10B战机大批现身)



@grey boy 2 ... I really admire Your post ... esp. since You most often find images much earlier than I do !

But this one is a very, very, very old images from 10. January 20*14 !!!
*
Deino

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## Tiqiu

These should be the J10B late batch model (above picture) powered by FWS10A or FWS10H with type A nozzle and J10C prototype(below)powered by FWS10AII with type B nozzle , the one displayed on the Zhuhai show.

One one the features distinguish the two is J10C has missile warning device at its tail

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## Akasa

Tiqiu said:


> These should be the J10B late batch model (above picture) powered by FWS10A or FWS10H with type A nozzle and J10C prototype(below)powered by FWS10AII with type B nozzle , the one displayed on the Zhuhai show.
> 
> One one the features distinguish the two is J10C has missile warning device at its tail
> 
> View attachment 356999



You got the two mixed up; the J-10B has a MAWS sensor on the tail whereas the J-10C doesn't. The J-10C is using an AL-31.


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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> These should be the J10B late batch model (above picture) powered by FWS10A or FWS10H with type A nozzle and J10C prototype(below)powered by FWS10AII with type B nozzle , the one displayed on the Zhuhai show.
> 
> One one the features distinguish the two is J10C has missile warning device at its tail



This image showing a J-10C (batch 02) on top is well known and it shows one of the two late production J-10B (batch 01 - either 154 or 155) in comparison since only these two are powered by the WS-10.

So please do not mix again AL-31FN with WS-10, esp. on the J-10-serises both engines are more than easy to identify ... and there is no WS-10 featuring an AL-31FN-nozzle. That's only wishful thinking.

Deino


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## Tiqiu

Deino said:


> This image showing a J-10C (batch 02) on top is well known and it shows one of the two late production J-10B (batch 01 - either 154 or 155) in comparison since only these two are powered by the WS-10.
> 
> So please do not mix again AL-31FN with WS-10, esp. on the J-10-serises both engines are more than easy to identify ... and there is no WS-10 featuring an AL-31FN-nozzle. That's only wishful thinking.
> 
> Deino


C'mon, did I say " featuring an AL-31FN nozzle "?
And "wishful thinking", really? If you are so adamant about everything, then why couldn't you explain the finding of the bended petal on those supposed to be the same Russian engines raised by j20blackdragon?


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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> C'mon, did I say " featuring an AL-31FN nozzle "?
> And "wishful thinking", really? If you are so adamant about everything, then why couldn't you explain the finding of the bended petal on those supposed to be the same Russian engines raised by j20blackdragon?



Maybe I misunderstood Your post but You said:

1. These should be the J10B late batch model (above picture) powered by FWS10A or FWS10H with type A nozzle and

Wrong, since the image on top shows a J-10C with a standard AL-31FN Series 3 nozzle ... exactly the same as the J-10B in Zhuhai featured, since both B & C models use the same engine. There is no "type A nozzle"

2. J10C prototype (below) powered by FWS10AII with type B nozzle, the one displayed on the Zhuhai show.

Also wrong, since this one is a J-10B with a WS-10, the same nozzle as all WS-10 engines have and not as the J-10B in Zhuhai had. Or did You mean the WS-10B on display ? Then You are correct, but that makes this aircraft still not a C.

Or can You please explain what You meant with WS-10 type A or B nozzle ??

Deino


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## aziqbal

anyone trying to disagree against Deino on engine issues is sure to be wrong 

I don't know anyone who is as knowledgeable on engines issue as Deino is

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## Tiqiu

Deino said:


> Maybe I misunderstood Your post but You said:
> 
> 1. These should be the J10B late batch model (above picture) powered by FWS10A or FWS10H with type A nozzle and
> 
> Wrong, since the image on top shows a J-10C with a standard AL-31FN Series 3 nozzle ... exactly the same as the J-10B in Zhuhai featured, since both B & C models use the same engine. There is no "type A nozzle"
> 
> 2. J10C prototype (below) powered by FWS10AII with type B nozzle, the one displayed on the Zhuhai show.
> 
> Also wrong, since this one is a J-10B with a WS-10, the same nozzle as all WS-10 engines have and not as the J-10B in Zhuhai had. Or did You mean the WS-10B on display ? Then You are correct, but that makes this aircraft still not a C.
> 
> Or can You please explain what You meant with WS-10 type A or B nozzle ??
> 
> Deino


As I am doomed to be wrong to disagree with you, so I ll save it.


aziqbal said:


> anyone trying to disagree against Deino on engine issues is sure to be wrong
> 
> I don't know anyone who is as knowledgeable on engines issue as Deino is


Thanks God.Then please explain to us which Russian-made AL-31F variant can make J-20 with 19t+fuel weight to climb vertically without afterburner during the J-20 debut demo flight at the Zhuhai air show?

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## dingyibvs

Tiqiu said:


> As I am doomed to be wrong to disagree with you, so I ll save it.
> 
> Thanks God.Then please explain to us which Russian-made AL-31F variant can make J-20 with 19t+fuel weight to climb vertically without afterburner during the J-20 debut demo flight at the Zhuhai air show?



All sorts of planes climb vertically, many do not have very high thrust to weight ratio, it's just a matter of control surfaces converting kinetic energy into potential energy. Unless you have a T/W ratio > 1 though you'll slow down throughout the climb and eventually fall.

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## Tiqiu

Still can't see how this J-20 jet could control surfaces converting kinetic energy into potential energy to make that type of vertical climb without more powerful powerplant than Al-31F.





@dingyibvs

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## Beast

aziqbal said:


> anyone trying to disagree against Deino on engine issues is sure to be wrong
> 
> I don't know anyone who is as knowledgeable on engines issue as Deino is


Lol.... I totally disagree with you. There are many info Deino do not know. And our conclusion is not based on fanboy of personal opinions. But based on years of keeping track with news,development and interview with credible people like chief engineer of aero engine , AVIC chairman and high level ranking PLAAF officer. If you think those people words is not credible enough and a non Chinese speaking foreigner conclusion is more credible. Clearly a biased against Chinese speaking people source surface.

All these credible source Chinese people do not speak English and they only publish their news in Chinese. If you think people like Yang wei and Lin zuoming interview is nothing. There is nothing much we can discuss further.

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## Malik Alashter

So whats the difference between the j-10b and the C version thanks.


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## Deino

Malik Alashter said:


> So whats the difference between the j-10b and the C version thanks.




No offence, but this was already posted I think 100 times and nearly once on each page ... most of all the C-model features much more advanced avionics around a new AESA radar.

Externally they are nearly the same and the most important differences are marked ... hope that helps.

Deino

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## Malik Alashter

Deino said:


> No offence, but this was already posted I think 100 times and nearly once on each page ... most of all the C-model features much more advanced avionics around a new AESA radar.
> 
> Externally they are nearly the same and the most important differences are marked ... hope that helps.
> 
> Deino
> 
> View attachment 357216


Is that means the j-10 has no aesa radar or it does but the one on the C is a better one thanks.



Malik Alashter said:


> Is that means the j-10 has no aesa radar or it does but the one on the C is a better one thanks.


Side question if you were given a mig-35 and a j-10b or c but you go with just one which one you go with and why thanks.


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## Akasa

Malik Alashter said:


> Is that means the j-10 has no aesa radar or it does but the one on the C is a better one thanks.
> 
> 
> Side question if you were given a mig-35 and a j-10b or c but you go with just one which one you go with and why thanks.



The J-10A has a Pulse-Doppler radar, the J-10B a PESA radar, and the J-10C an AESA radar.

The J-10B/C and MiG-35 are very different jets that fill divergent niches, each of which will function according to the circumstances at hand. To juxtapose the two would be quite difficult on a one-to-one basis.

A far better comparator would be the Rafale, and, to a lesser extent, the Eurofighter F3.

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## Malik Alashter

SinoSoldier said:


> would be the Rafale, and, to a lesser extent, the Eurofighter F3.


you mean a rafale to the j-10?.


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## Deino

Malik Alashter said:


> Is that means the j-10 has no aesa radar or it does but the one on the C is a better one thanks..



So far all reports confirm that the A-model uses a standard PD-radar (Type 1473), the B-models uses - as an interim - a PESA (X-band developed by the 607 Institute) and only the most recent C-model has an AESA (developed by the 14th Institute). 



> Side question if you were given a mig-35 and a j-10b or c but you go with just one which one you go with and why thanks.



IMO I would go for a J-10C due to its much more advanced avionics.

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## Akasa

Malik Alashter said:


> you mean a rafale to the j-10?.



My point was that it would be near impossible to do an impartial and technically-sound comparison of the MiG-35 to the J-10B/C given their different roles and the vast number of circumstantial variables in a comparison.

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## Malik Alashter

SinoSoldier said:


> My point was that it would be near impossible to do an impartial and technically-sound comparison of the MiG-35 to the J-10B/C given their different roles and the vast number of circumstantial variables in a comparison.


the mig-35 is a multi rule fighter just like the j-10 so yes the comparison is valid. 

just like @Deino said Id go with the j-10 for its electronics the only thing I don't know about the j-10 if she carry something like the SPECTRA or not?.


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## Akasa

Malik Alashter said:


> the mig-35 is a multi rule fighter just like the j-10 so yes the comparison is valid.
> 
> just like @Deino said Id go with the j-10 for its electronics the only thing I don't know about the j-10 if she carry something like the SPECTRA or not?.



They may be multirole but are in different weight classes and were developed with different threats in mind. SPECTRA is a patented term for an integrated self-defense/awareness suite that involves RWR, MAW, jammers, and IR detection. The J-10B/C has all of those things but the integration thereof is still a question to be answered.

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## DCS

Tiqiu said:


> As I am doomed to be wrong to disagree with you, so I ll save it.
> 
> Thanks God.Then please explain to us which Russian-made AL-31F variant can make J-20 with 19t+fuel weight to climb vertically without afterburner during the J-20 debut demo flight at the Zhuhai air show?



Planes configured for aerobatic displays rarely fly with full fuel load. It is definitely possible to execute the climb you described with an AL-31F variant. I won't discount that the J-20 is running on domestic engines however. If Yin Zhuo did claim that the J-20 is using domestic engines, it is pretty significant as he is generally conservative in his statements.



SinoSoldier said:


> The J-10A has a Pulse-Doppler radar, the J-10B a PESA radar, and the J-10C an AESA radar.





Deino said:


> So far all reports confirm that the A-model uses a standard PD-radar (Type 1473), the B-models uses - as an interim - a PESA (X-band developed by the 607 Institute) and only the most recent C-model has an AESA (developed by the 14th Institute).



I have not seen any evidence that the J-10B is hosting a PESA radar. I have seen one picture of the J-10B with nosecone off, radar covers on, and no exposed modules. I think it is debatable whether the J-10B radar is even from 607. I haven't ruled anything out, but the best we can say at this point is that it is an electronically scanned array.

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## Daniel808

Malik Alashter said:


> Is that means the j-10 has no aesa radar or it does but the one on the C is a better one thanks.
> 
> 
> Side question if you were given a mig-35 and a j-10b or c but you go with just one which one you go with and why thanks.



http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.co.id/p/fighters-ii.html

Maybe it can help you to understand J-10A, and J-10B/C.


Credit to : Huitong

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## 帅的一匹

We shall stop producing J10b, and concentrate on C/D version.


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## grey boy 2

J-10C (刚出厂的黄皮新歼十C加力起飞 撕裂空气感强烈)

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## Tiqiu

DCS said:


> Planes configured for aerobatic displays rarely fly with full fuel load. It is definitely possible to execute the climb you described with an AL-31F variant.


I know plane can pitch up to a vertical flight patch, but without greater than 1 T/W engine the speed will decelerate. This is not the case here. *J-20 GOT VORTEX AND VAPOR TRAIL.
*


DCS said:


> I have not seen any evidence that the J-10B is hosting a PESA radar. I have seen one picture of the J-10B with nosecone off, radar covers on, and no exposed modules. I think it is debatable whether the J-10B radar is even from 607. I haven't ruled anything out, but the best we can say at this point is that it is an electronically scanned array.


Correct. China never developed PESA. Thus J10B never had PESA.
J10B's AESA has 12XX GaN T/R @12 W

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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> We shall stop producing J10b, and concentrate on C/D version.




The B-model is no longer in production ... it is long superseded by the J-10C.

Overall there are reports at CJDBY that there are around 120 J-10Bs/Cs produced in total: As such a look onto the production rate is interesting since we know for sure that there are 55 Batch 01 J-10Bs and the so far highest number spotted on a J-10C was 2-49, so making the 49th Batch 02 aircraft: in sum these are 104 J-10B/Cs at all, even if I have to admit, 2-49 was spotted already in late September, so 120 by now could be indeed correct.

Anyway, the first Batch 01 aircraft was spotted for the first time on 11. December 2013 ... so after nearly exactly three years we have confirmed about 120 B/C making a production rate of close to 40 per year or 3,33 per month.... not really top-level. In comparison, Lockheed Martin produced a peak of 30 planes per a month in June 1987.

What I'm interested in is to know, if already Batch 03 production has started ?!!

Deino

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> The B-model is no longer in production ... it is long superseded by the J-10C.
> 
> Overall there are reports at CJDBY that there are around 120 J-10Bs/Cs produced in total: As such a look onto the production rate is interesting since we know for sure that there are 55 Batch 01 J-10Bs and the so far highest number spotted on a J-10C was 2-49, so making the 49th Batch 02 aircraft: in sum these are 104 J-10B/Cs at all, even if I have to admit, 2-49 was spotted already in late September, so 120 by now could be indeed correct.
> 
> Anyway, the first Batch 01 aircraft was spotted for the first time on 11. December 2013 ... so after nearly exactly three years we have confirmed about 120 B/C making a production rate of close to 40 per year or 3,33 per month.... not really top-level. In comparison, Lockheed Martin produced a peak of 30 planes per a month in June 1987.
> 
> What I'm interested in is to know, if already Batch 03 production has started ?!!
> 
> Deino


 Dear Deino, how is your feeling when China build such a large scale of combat aircraft fleet? Maybe the question is little bit straight foward, but no malign intention. Do the western people feel insecure or uncomfortable with it? If yes/ not, please brief why. Thanks!


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## Akasa

wanglaokan said:


> Dear Deino, how is your feeling when China build such a large scale of combat aircraft fleet? Maybe the question is little bit straight foward, but no malign intention. Do the western people feel insecure or uncomfortable with it? If yes/ not, please brief why. Thanks!



Why such an insecure and condescending question? How do the Chinese feel when US warplanes and missiles ring China with more than 40+ bases?

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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> Dear Deino, how is your feeling when China build such a large scale of combat aircraft fleet? Maybe the question is little bit straight foward, but no malign intention. Do the western people feel insecure or uncomfortable with it? If yes/ not, please brief why. Thanks!



To admit that's quite a difficult answer and I need to differ between my own personnel opinion and "what IMO most Western peoples on the street" think. Even more this is exactly the point why I feel so angry when some here call me a typical arrogant Western foreigner, who only wants to diminish Chinese achievements.

1. to me: IMO China finally is capable and even more it is itself politically willing to take its own fate into its own hand. China is now able to regain its long established place in Far East and in the global political, economic and therefore military system; and that's only a good thing. A place that China had lost years, actually decades ago and was not able to regain due to external powers and also internal issues; the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution and Tiananmen are only three examples. Consequently China is currently expanding its military capabilities and is modernising its forces but IMO this expansion is more than necessary due to several reasons again: China has to defend a vast territory and an even more vast population. The current size of its forces is for this alone still too small and too much dated. Second, for me China has to become - esp. following the collapse of the SU - a natural counterpart to balance the US and its politics. IMO a maniac like Trump with the world's biggest nuclear arsenal is a far bigger threat to peace than this so called "military expansion". As such - even if some here deem me an arrogant, ignorant or stupid Westerner - I'm more than happy with these developments. I'm enjoying each and every new progress, each and every new airplane as a step into this direction ... however now...

2. to the typical Western peoples: As already mentioned in the Type 001A carrier thread, for the West and the established powers this creates an feeling of uncertainty, concerns and fears about the established own position. The West fears that its power gained after WW II could diminish and therefore concerns that the balance of powers could shift are a typical reaction in the West. As such many here are indeed correct when they fear, that the typical Western sees this as a problem, as a military expansion that is dangerous. Consequently the typical Western media often enough reports in complete bias, ignorance about the issues with Japan, in the SCS or with India.

IMO something not really good since it prevents an unbiased approach to so many issues we all have to solve. Not sure if You know my book "Flashpoint China" (from Harpia Publishing), which was written exactly with this intention in mind. To explain the typical Western the situation in the Far East not from the typical Western point of view but from the historical context.

Hope this was at least - even if OT again - a useful answer.

Deino

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## Pangu

Deino said:


> To admit that's quite a difficult answer and I need to differ between my own personnel opinion and "what IMO most Western peoples on the street" think. Even more this is exactly the point why I feel so angry when some here call me a typical arrogant Western foreigner, who only wants to diminish Chinese achievements.
> 
> 1. to me: IMO China finally is capable and even more it is itself politically willing to take its own fate into its own hand. China is now able to regain its long established place in Far East and in the global political, economic and therefore military system; and that's only a good thing. A place that China had lost years, actually decades ago and was not able to regain due to external powers and also internal issues; the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution and Tiananmen are only three examples. Consequently China is currently expanding its military capabilities and is modernising its forces but IMO this expansion is more than necessary due to several reasons again: China has to defend a vast territory and an even more vast population. The current size of its forces is for this alone still too small and too much dated. Second, for me China has to become - esp. following the collapse of the SU - a natural counterpart to balance the US and its politics. IMO a maniac like Trump with the world's biggest nuclear arsenal is a far bigger threat to peace than this so called "military expansion". As such - even if some here deem me an arrogant, ignorant or stupid Westerner - I'm more than happy with these developments. I'm enjoying each and every new progress, each and every new airplane as a step into this direction ... however now...
> 
> 2. to the typical Western peoples: As already mentioned in the Type 001A carrier thread, for the West and the established powers this creates an feeling of uncertainty, concerns and fears about the established own position. The West fears that its power gained after WW II could diminish and therefore concerns that the balance of powers could shift are a typical reaction in the West. As such many here are indeed correct when they fear, that the typical Western sees this as a problem, as a military expansion that is dangerous. Consequently the typical Western media often enough reports in complete bias, ignorance about the issues with Japan, in the SCS or with India.
> 
> IMO something not really good since it prevents an unbiased approach to so many issues we all have to solve. Not sure if You know my book "Flashpoint China" (from Harpia Publishing), which was written exactly with this intention in mind. To explain the typical Western the situation in the Far East not from the typical Western point of view but from the historical context.
> 
> Hope this was at least - even if OT again - a useful answer.
> 
> Deino



Thanks for your detailed explanation Deino. Personally, I always feel that your approach to questioning what is & what is not, with regards to China's military development based on factual or persistent evidence, to be unbiased & thoughtful. cheers.

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## Beast

Pangu said:


> Thanks for your detailed explanation Deino. Personally, I always feel that your approach to questioning what is & what is not, with regards to China's military development based on factual or persistent evidence, to be unbiased & thoughtful. cheers.


Many of his conclusions are incomplete just like sinosoldier as both of them cannot read Chinese and have no idea the full development. Their assessment is based on English source and mere simple English translation by others. Some Chinese interview are lengthy and nobody will bother to give a full translation for these foreign gentlemen. There are some Chinese verse which others may deem insignificant but contain critical meaning and insight. Just like the recent interview of J-20 chief designer yang wei. Nobody talks about that particular sentence mention by yang wei until recently raise up by me, he say " J-20 flight demonstrations, demonstrated something visible to audiences and yet also demonstrated something not visible to others too! " This sentence contains a lot of meaning and very important to understand the real capabilities and development of J-20. Only a real Chinese can decipher what he actually trying to tell you. And they are simply too many critical videos and interview both never see or miss which can give real insightful into Chinese military development. And they are not bogus source but direct interview with chief designer of the weapons or high ranking PLA personnel which involves in the decision making of the induction of the weapon.

I am sure Henri. K can give better assessment compare to the 2 others.

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## Pangu

Beast said:


> Many of his conclusions are incomplete just like sinosoldier as both of them cannot read Chinese and have no idea the full development. Their assessment is based on English source and mere simple English translation by others. Some Chinese interview are lengthy and nobody will bother to give a full translation for these foreign gentlemen. There are some Chinese verse which others may deem insignificant but contain critical meaning and insight. Just like the recent interview of J-20 chief designer yang wei. Nobody talks about that particular sentence mention by yang wei u til recently raise up by me, he say " J-20 flight demonstrations, demonstrated something visible to audiences and yet also demonstrated something not visible to others too! " This sentence contains a lot of meaning and very important to understand the real capabilities and development of J-20. Only a real Chinese can decipher what he actually trying to tell you.
> 
> I am sure Henri. K can give better assessment compare to the 2 others.



Yah, I understand what u are saying bro. But he can only understand what he can understands, that's how he draw his conclusion. That's why opinions differ, which IMO does not disadvantage us, always good to keep people guessing. That'd the fun part.

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## Sasquatch

Stick to the topic about the J-10 instead of ABM, Ballistic missiles, US-China geopolitics, its throwing the thread in chaos. These posts have been removed, @Deino keep a watch on this.

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## yusheng

yes，on topic

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## Deino

yusheng said:


> View attachment 357875
> 
> 
> yes，on topic





But again a very old image dated 10. January 2014 ! ... but anyway nice.


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## Tiqiu



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## j20blackdragon

Deino said:


> The colour simply changes due to the heat during use ad the older an exhaust is, the much more different the colour is:





gambit said:


> The blue color is indicative of continuing use. These 'petals' are often designed to be interchangeable from engine design to engine design, not just from engine to engine of the same design.
> 
> The operating temperature, even at the highest throttle setting, are well below the melting point of the metal, assuming this is a composite material. Over time and usage, the metal will change its steady state color to that blue-ish tint. This characteristic should not be used to speculate what kind of engine is in what airplane.



The color in the AL-31FN petals are a reaction between the heat from the engine and the alloys used to make the nozzle. Probably a reaction similar to how tempered steel changes color with differing temperatures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tempering_standards_used_in_blacksmithing.JPG





Heat and thrust are directly related. A higher thrust engine will produce more heat.

I also don't buy the argument that the nozzle will continue to change color over time. Can anyone show me Russian Air Force planes (using AL-31F) with color changing nozzles? Can anyone show me pictures of the Su-30MKK/MK2 nozzles changing color over time? I've never seen it.

Let me use pictures to illustrate the changing color of the J-10A/S nozzle over time.

Here are two pictures from the 2008/2009 time frame. These are dated photos from airliners.net. Standard blue/grey petals.










Now look at the multi-colored nozzles of the J-10A/S from Zhuhai 2016.










Here is a unique picture of an unmarked J-10A with very colorful nozzles. This one is very strange.






Moreover, please do not bring the J-10B/C into this discussion. We know AL-31FN Series 3 has higher thrust. I want to stick with the original J-10A/S using the 'old' AL-31FN.

Can anyone provide a credible explanation as to why the nozzle colors are changing over time?

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## Deino

Even if I'm not a metallurgist or material engineer (I think is there any out here) but - in mind of the Chemical kinetics - You can achieve sometimes the same results even with a slightly lower temperature by a longer time of reaction. So if the differences in temperature is not that huge, but the time of operational cycles much higher, You probably get the same colour effect.

As such I would not really correlate colour of metal with the thrust !

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## grey boy 2

J-10A

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## grey boy 2

New pictures of J-10C

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> New pictures of J-10C




Simply an amazing beautiful bird !  IMO the best looking fourth generation fighter .. also in comparison to the Rafale.

Sadly once again the c/n is deleted.

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## GS Zhou

The high speed train driver said: look, some one is moving much faster than me!!!

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## 3jiL

grey boy 2 said:


> New pictures of J-10C


Why j-10C haven't MAW in tail like j-10B?


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## lcloo

IMO J10C has new sensors replacing MAW, it is just that we have not identified what it is. Possibly based on latest technology from J20.


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## cirr

Deino said:


> Simply an amazing beautiful bird !  IMO the best looking fourth generation fighter .. also in comparison to the Rafale.
> 
> Sadly once again the c/n is deleted.

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## Deino

cirr said:


>




Can't see the image and it's URL is dead !???


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## cirr

Deino said:


> Can't see the image and it's URL is dead !???

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## Deino

cirr said:


> View attachment 358691




Thanks ... the well known 2-35 spotted for the first time on 8. March 2016.

Any info on if there are numbers higher than 2-49? That bird was the so far highest number I know (30. September 2016)?


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## j20blackdragon

j20blackdragon said:


> The color in the AL-31FN petals are a reaction between the heat from the engine and the alloys used to make the nozzle. Probably a reaction similar to how tempered steel changes color with differing temperatures.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tempering_standards_used_in_blacksmithing.JPG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heat and thrust are directly related. A higher thrust engine will produce more heat.
> 
> I also don't buy the argument that the nozzle will continue to change color over time. Can anyone show me Russian Air Force planes (using AL-31F) with color changing nozzles? Can anyone show me pictures of the Su-30MKK/MK2 nozzles changing color over time? I've never seen it.
> 
> Let me use pictures to illustrate the changing color of the J-10A/S nozzle over time.
> 
> Here are two pictures from the 2008/2009 time frame. These are dated photos from airliners.net. Standard blue/grey petals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now look at the multi-colored nozzles of the J-10A/S from Zhuhai 2016.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a unique picture of an unmarked J-10A with very colorful nozzles. This one is very strange.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moreover, please do not bring the J-10B/C into this discussion. We know AL-31FN Series 3 has higher thrust. I want to stick with the original J-10A/S using the 'old' AL-31FN.
> 
> Can anyone provide a credible explanation as to why the nozzle colors are changing over time?



Original blue/grey AL-31FN.






Multi-colored AL-31FN.






Someone explain.


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## Deino

*PLEASE NOT AGAIN !!!!!*

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## 帅的一匹

In this one, I think Denio is right. The multi color is caused by high temperature. still Al31FN.

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## Tiqiu

Deino said:


> Sorry ... the size of a batch is very different. For example the early J-10A batches were smaller, the J-10B has a size of 55. Concerning the number of ac in a batch at SAC I don't know.





Deino said:


> The final J-10C spotted was 2-49 however already in September, the last J-11B I know was 6-18 but that already in 2014.


I think you got misinformed on this one. 2.49 is still the batch2 production J-10B, not J-10c. So far a total number of 108 J-10B were produced in 2 batches ( 1-01 to 1-54 and 2-.01 to 2-54) and deployed to 6 regiments. The first production J-10C deployed was reported back in Jan.


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## j20blackdragon

Deino said:


> There was a report on 100 additional AL-31 of unspecific sort during Zhuhai ... quite interesting, it was only mentioned briefly and kept very low. Concerning the AL-31FN for the J-10B/C, the number of aircraft fits quite nicely to the number of FN series 3 delivered. It will however be interesting to notice, what happens to batch 03 ... and concerning the engines for the J-20; I'm sure that these are covered - similar to once the very first FN-contract - under a separate , still secret deal. But that's just my opinion.
> 
> Deino



There are 499 verifiable AL-31FN engines. Final purchase was in 2011.

I'm revising my J-10 numbers using AL-31FN.

huitong can confirm around 100 J-10 produced in batch 01-03.

*"Around 100 may have been produced by 2006 (01-03 batch, S/N 50x5x, 10x4x, 10x3x, 10x2x, 20x0x, 73x5x)."*
http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/fighters-ii.html

J-10 Batch 01: 24
J-10 Batch 02: 40
J-10 Batch 03: 40
J-10A Batch 04: 40
J-10A Batch 05: 40
J-10A Batch 06: 40
J-10A Batch 07: 40

J-10S Batch 01: ??
J-10S Batch 02: 40
J-10S Batch 03: 40

J-10B Batch 01: 53
J-10C Batch 02: 49

446+ J-10 total.

I'll include photographic evidence that J-10A and J-10S batches are always 40 aircraft each. The first batch is sometimes smaller.










Next, we need to consider how unreliable Russian engines are. India can confirm (for AL-31FP) 69 engines failures in four years.

*"In all, there are 69 instances of engine failure in the last four years, the minister said."*
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...ued-by-engine-troubles,-low-availability.html

If we throw in a dozen J-20, that's another 24 engines used up.

I don't believe the AL-31FM2 even exists. Why has there been no reports of the Su-34 receiving this engine?

The J-10 produced over a decade ago will require replacement engines by now. The service life of the early AL-31FN is how many hours?

This whole thing is a mystery.

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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> I think you got misinformed on this one. 2.49 is still the batch2 production J-10B, not J-10c. So far a total number of 108 J-10B were produced in 2 batches ( 1-01 to 1-54 and 2-.01 to 2-54) and deployed to 6 regiments. The first production J-10C deployed was reported back in Jan.



Sorry, but I really do not understand why You call these J-10C to be still J-10B??? All - including some of my biggest critics - agree that so all batch 02 aircraft are J-10C.
IMO the best proof is the new serial number, the prototype got: 1051 

Even more all sources speak of 55 batch 01 J-10B and the final two were the only ones using the WS-10B.
Otherwise concerning these 6 regiments I would be happy if You have more details.
Anyway, by



j20blackdragon said:


> There are 499 verifiable AL-31FN engines. Final purchase was in 2011.
> 
> I'm revising my J-10 numbers using AL-31FN.
> 
> ....
> 
> J-10 Batch 01: 24
> J-10 Batch 02: 40
> J-10 Batch 03: 40
> J-10A Batch 04: 40
> J-10A Batch 05: 40
> J-10A Batch 06: 40
> J-10A Batch 07: 40
> 
> J-10S Batch 01: ??
> J-10S Batch 02: 40
> J-10S Batch 03: 40
> 
> J-10B Batch 01: 53
> J-10C Batch 02: 49
> 
> 446+ J-10 total.
> 
> I'll include photographic evidence that J-10A and J-10S batches are always 40 aircraft each. The first batch is sometimes smaller.....



I feel honoured that You use my list I posted here some long, long time ago.

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## grey boy 2

New ultra-high performance concrete hangars with compression strength up to 400 MPa. (终于告别大凉棚了)

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## 帅的一匹

The Russian life span of AL31 has been increased from 900 hours to 1500 hours by Chinese overhaul. Save huge amount of money. Our overhaul facility can extend the life span by applying Recycle the super alloy turbin blade/power metallurgy turbine disk and automatic micro arc plasma welding tech.

even Russia can't do it.

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## Tiqiu

Deino said:


> Even more all sources speak of 55 batch 01 J-10B and the final two were the only ones using the WS-10B.


Thanks for pointing it out. Some big shrimps said 54 jets per batch were produced for batch1 and batch 2, so I thought the total numbers counting should start from 1-01 till 1-54. In light of what you said about 55, I searched again and found the 1-00 image, so if the number ends at 1-53 than my claim holds, otherwise you are right.







Deino said:


> Sorry, but I really do not understand why You call these J-10C to be still J-10B??? All - including some of my biggest critics - agree that so all batch 02 aircraft are J-10C.
> IMO the best proof is the new serial number, the prototype got: 1051



I think much of the confusion about which is which was caused by the lacking of official coverage of J-10C including its images. But I believed what has been claimed by some credible big shrimps that "Black(nozzle) is B and White(nozzle) is C". Those minor changes of the profiles of the MAW and Antennas does not suffice J-10B becoming J-10C, but changing the engine to a more powerful one does. Keep in mind that Chengdu Aircraft Corporation has stated some J-20's technology will be adopted into the producing of J-10, and Changes can be made without having to wait the start of next batch. So I think the new structurally reinforced J-10C with a more powerful AESA will require a new powerful engine than those Black-Nozzle engines(assuming they are all AL31FN). As such someone posted up this J-10 nameplate displayed at the PLA Air Force Aviation University recently,suggesting J10A/B/C are powered by AL-31FN/WS-10A/WS-10B, with thrust of 122.58KN/132KN/155KN respectively.
View attachment 359367


It appears that many people made conclusion and inferential conclusion about J-10C based on the 1035 J-10 using WS10 series engine. 1035 is the Number 5 of the prototype J10-B(01 to 05 on yellow skin/1031 to 1035 on Army paint), which is the only out the 5 prototype J-10B putting on a WS-10 engine for some sort of testing . The prototype J-10C are also five starting from 1051 to 1055.

Look below some of the prototype J-10B








View attachment 359383

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## Tiqiu

@Deino The last five images for the prototype J-10B should be as follows. Please help editing it for me.Thanks

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## 帅的一匹

What happens with prototype 1035? Why hasn't J10c mounted with WS10x? It's weird.


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## Tiqiu

Some small changes have been made for J-10B even they were made in the same batch2.

I wonder if someone has noticed, there are a few differences between 2-01 and 2-07 pointed out by some big shrimps.








So the MAW is gone after the 2-07

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> New ultra-high performance concrete hangars with compression strength up to 400 MPa. (终于告别大凉棚了)



... and right a moment later it shows to be a base of the 12. Fighter Division; most likely at Qihe; however it could also be Wendeng as there are reports about a regiment converted to J-10A there.

Does anyone know more ?








Tiqiu said:


> .... In light of what you said about 55, I searched again and found the 1-00 image,...



That image is a PS to hide the true identity. As so often esp. the second two digits are psed. The very first serial J-10B was 1-01. There is no 1-00.



> I think much of the confusion about which is which was caused by the lacking of official coverage of J-10C including its images. But I believed what has been claimed by some credible big shrimps that "Black(nozzle) is B and White(nozzle) is C". Those minor changes of the profiles of the MAW and Antennas does not suffice J-10B becoming J-10C, but changing the engine to a more powerful one does. Keep in mind that Chengdu Aircraft Corporation has stated some J-20's technology will be adopted into the producing of J-10, and Changes can be made without having to wait the start of next batch. So I think the new structurally reinforced J-10C with a more powerful AESA will require a new powerful engine than those Black-Nozzle engines(assuming they are all AL31FN). As such someone posted up this J-10 nameplate displayed at the PLA Air Force Aviation University recently,suggesting J10A/B/C are powered by AL-31FN/WS-10A/WS-10B, with thrust of 122.58KN/132KN/155KN respectively.
> View attachment 359367



This black nozzle/white nozzle might simple be a change in material or the different time of operations, but none of these are WS-10 ! ... and by the way this nameplate only "suggests" that the J-10 can be fitted, that does not mean there are any operationally.

Otherwise You really need to show me one of these WS-10-powered J-10C. Here is a comparison; plain and simple:







> It appears that many people made conclusion and inferential conclusion about J-10C based on the 1035 J-10 using WS10 series engine. 1035 is the Number 5 of the prototype J10-B(01 to 05 on yellow skin/1031 to 1035 on Army paint), which is the only out the 5 prototype J-10B putting on a WS-10 engine for some sort of testing . The prototype J-10C are also five starting from 1051 to 1055.




YES, but like You said, only J-10B-prototype (as well as J-10A prototype 1004) were test-wise using the WS-10. All other J-10B and C build so far are AL-31FN-powered; that's a fact.




Tiqiu said:


> Some small changes have been made for J-10B even they were made in the same batch2.
> I wonder if someone has noticed, there are a few differences between 2-01 and 2-07 pointed out by some big shrimps.
> So the MAW is gone after the 2-07



YES, but that's was long known ... it was even gone right after 2-02 even if the images of 202 are too blurred !

Here is 2-03:








Therefore again, please explain what's a J-10B and a J-10C per Your definition: Following the reports that are IMO most widely accepted this is the definition I hold:

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## Tiqiu

Deino said:


> YES, but like You said, only J-10B-prototype (as well as J-10A prototype 1004) were test-wise using the WS-10. All other J-10B and C build so far are AL-31FN-powered; that's a fact.


Good.So we all agree that only one prototype J-10B (1035) and one prototype J-10A (1004) were fitted with WS-10.

Here are the images of prototype J-10B from both sides. Note there is an antenna besides the flashing light on its vertical tail.









Now look at these images of alleged prototype and production J-10C circulated since Jan. below to observe the differences. It's very clear that many J-10C with WS-10 were produced. None of those yellow J-10B with black nozzle which were just posted few days ago are J-10C.

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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> Good.So we all agree that only one prototype J-10B (1035) and one prototype J-10A (1004) were fitted with WS-10.
> 
> Here are the images of prototype J-10B from both sides. Note there is an antenna besides the flashing light on its vertical tail.



YES ... in the same way no. 2-01 & 2-02 both still had these RWRs. I don't know, why they were later deleted and most likely replaced by something new. But fact is: all but the prototypes and these very first serial batch 2 aircraft lack them.




> Now look at these images of alleged prototype and production J-10C circulated since Jan. below to observe the differences. It's very clear that many J-10C with WS-10 were produced. None of those yellow J-10B with black nozzle which were just posted few days ago are J-10C.
> View attachment 359489
> 
> ....




Honestly ... they all show the same or at least one of only two WS-10-powered J-10B !!

Anyway, You still owe me an explanation, on how You differ between a B and C and even more since all members here agree that they are B - since they have the RWRs - and not C? It seems to me that a J-10C has to use the WS-10 and a B still uses the AL-31FN or am I wrong ??

Believe me, there are so far NO, really NO serial WS-10-powered J-10C ... not a single on.

Ask @cirr or @星海军事 ... I'm really sure with my definition posted above to differ between a B and a C.


Deino


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## Tiqiu

Deino said:


> YES ... in the same way no. 2-01 & 2-02 both still had these RWRs. I don't know, why they were later deleted and most likely replaced by something new. But fact is: all but the prototypes and these very first serial batch 2 aircraft lack them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly ... they all show the same or at least one of only two WS-10-powered J-10B !!
> 
> Anyway, You still owe me an explanation, on how You differ between a B and C and even more since all members here agree that they are B - since they have the RWRs - and not C? It seems to me that a J-10C has to use the WS-10 and a B still uses the AL-31FN or am I wrong ??
> 
> Believe me, there are so far NO, really NO serial WS-10-powered J-10C ... not a single on.
> 
> Ask @cirr or @星海军事 ... I'm really sure with my definition posted above to differ between a B and a C.
> 
> 
> Deino


Let's put it on record on PDF
All J-10 ( non J-10A) with black nozzle are J-10B;
All J-10 ( non J-10A) with white nozzle are J-10C.
( except prototype 1035 J-10B)

One Chinese member here already posted the image of that huge J-10 billboard with WS-10X engine for the Zhuaihai show. It was reported the J-10C would be de-classified by its static display at the show, making it one of the two highlights (the J-20 demo flight being another one) for the event. Somehow it was cancelled. Can a Static display of the J-10B create highlight for the Zhuhai show?

As such, none of those J-10 contained in your post is J-10C; they are all J-10B.

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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> Let's put it on record on PDF
> All J-10 ( non J-10A) with black nozzle are J-10B;
> All J-10 ( non J-10A) with white nozzle are J-10C.
> ( except prototype 1035 J-10B)
> 
> One Chinese member here already posted the image of that huge J-10 billboard with WS-10X engine for the Zhuaihai show. It was reported the J-10C would be de-classified by its static display at the show, making it one of the two highlights (the J-20 demo flight being another one) for the event. Somehow it was cancelled. Can a Static display of the J-10B create highlight for the Zhuhai show?
> 
> As such, none of those J-10 contained in your post is J-10C; they are all J-10B.



Funny that one was me and it did not show a C but simply one off the two WS-10-powered J-10B.





Just look at the tail, it is exactly that bird as shown already so often. It is one of the final two batch 01 J-10B:






Sorry again ... but I really don't know, why a C in Your perception has to use a WS-10??
Where is one, at least one source that calls only the WS-10-powered J-10 a J-10C???
You are indeed the only one.

Where are these all ??? Show us any of these WS-10-equipped J-10C ! I would be happy to be wrong, but there are simply none ....

Just look here: http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.de/p/fighters-ii.html#J-10C

I remember even that @星海军事 confirmed that on these batch 02 aircraft it the c/n is written as J10Cxxx similar to the J10B0117 at Zhuhai.

Deino

PS: the only point that makes me curious however is - which would hint You might be correct - why should the numbering of batches continue if the version is changed ? From J-10A to J-10B also a new sequence was started ... but maybe the difference is not big enough to justify this.

So it remains exciting.

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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> Let's put it on record on PDF
> All J-10 ( non J-10A) with black nozzle are J-10B;
> All J-10 ( non J-10A) with white nozzle are J-10C.
> ( except prototype 1035 J-10B)
> .




Just me again, seems as if I missed that part ??

What do You mean with "black nozzle" (J-10B) and "white nozzle" (J-10C) ???

Deino


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## Tiqiu

Deino said:


> Funny that one was me and it did not show a C but simply one off the two WS-10-powered J-10B.


Funny indeed because It was @long_ who posted it up in his #8077. Of course I maybe wrong if you posted earlier than him. I know it did not say it was a C expressively, that is why We have to make an inferential judgement based on what we got.

What do you mean by one of the two WS-10 powered J-10B? Previously you and me agreed that only 1035(prototype J-10B) and 1004(prototype J-10A) were powered by WS-10 on public knowledge,Right? Do you agree with me now there are more than 1 non-J10A like of J-10 powered by WS-10?



Deino said:


> I remember even that @星海军事 confirmed that on these batch 02 aircraft it the c/n is written as J10Cxxx similar to the J10B0117 at Zhuhai.


I don't know how the code numbers are written for the production J-10C, but it was said for those 5 prototype J-10C, the c/n were written in small font as J10C1051/2/3/4/5 only on the both sides of the prototype's rudder. Of course, no image on public domain to confirm it. Perhaps you can ask @星海军事 to sort it out.



Deino said:


> Where are these all ??? Show us any of these WS-10-equipped J-10C ! I would be happy to be wrong, but there are simply none ....



C'mon, I have just gave your some claimed-to-be-J-10C images, but you just didn't spend time or pay attention to notice the minor differences. I ll use the same images to prove my point again.

Example1.
The following images created by you in your above post shows they are different, so you were in your saying that
"Just look at the tail, it is exactly that bird as shown already so often. It is one of the final two batch 01 J-10B"
Source: https://defence.pk/threads/chengdu-...fighter-air-craft.3218/page-551#ixzz4SZhOl2ja
The left one has one more yellow color device(antenna?) next to the lights on the vertical tale. So there is one more J10 powered by WS-10 other than 1035.






1035 also has this yellow thing.






Example 2
This said first production J-10C in the army service has a blade-shaped antenna next to the lights on the tale, which makes it a second one different than 1035.









2.49 has the same blade and the same location (towards the front edge), but it doesn't have MAW





Example 3
Another production J-10C seems have a very different nozzle color than the 1035








This is how 1035 looks like







Deino said:


> Just me again, seems as if I missed that part ??
> 
> What do You mean with "black nozzle" (J-10B) and "white nozzle" (J-10C) ???
> 
> Deino


Just because no images of the production J-10C in yellow with designated c/n doesn't mean it doesn't exist. People have seen them claimed due to the similarity of their appearance we should use "black nozzle is B, white is C" to tell which is which. Using minor changes of antenna or MAW are not reliable because even 2.01/02/03 production J-10B are different than the 2.07 and onwards in the same batch.



Deino said:


> PS: the only point that makes me curious however is - which would hint You might be correct - why should the numbering of batches continue if the version is changed ? From J-10A to J-10B also a new sequence was started ... but maybe the difference is not big enough to justify this.
> 
> So it remains exciting.


It is.If the claim is true that Batch 2 is J-10C, then why there is no single image of the 5 prototype J-10C or any prototype available? Why 5 prototypes had to be produced just for some minor changes of antenna/MAW? Why they are so secret while we have all these so-claimed production J-10C in yellow color posted up here on almost daily basis? It does not make sense,does it?

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## 帅的一匹

I thought the flame color of WS10 series is red, and Blue for AL31.


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## Deino

Uiuiuiuiuiui ... what a lot to reply !



Tiqiu said:


> Funny indeed because It was @long_ who posted it up in his #8077. Of course I maybe wrong if you posted earlier than him. I know it did not say it was a C expressively, that is why We have to make an inferential judgement based on what we got.



I think I posted it in the Zhuhai thread first, but anyway it does not make ac difference. It is the same bird.



> What do you mean by one of the two WS-10 powered J-10B? Previously you and me agreed that only 1035(prototype J-10B) and 1004(prototype J-10A) were powered by WS-10 on public knowledge,Right? Do you agree with me now there are more than 1 non-J10A like of J-10 powered by WS-10?



I mean the two WS-10B-trial-equipped final batch 01 J-10B c/n 1-54 & 1-55. So YES, we have altogether four WS-10-powered J-10s of any version confirmed. All more are speculation.




> I don't know how the code numbers are written for the production J-10C, but it was said for those 5 prototype J-10C, the c/n were written in small font as J10C1051/2/3/4/5 only on the both sides of the prototype's rudder. Of course, no image on public domain to confirm it. Perhaps you can ask @星海军事 to sort it out.



IMO as by the reports I read in the same way as on all J-1A and B ... now only as J-10C02xx ! But sadly I cannot confirm it since theses numbers are too small to see on the images we know so far.



> C'mon, I have just gave your some claimed-to-be-J-10C images, but you just didn't spend time or pay attention to notice the minor differences. I ll use the same images to prove my point again.
> 
> Example1.
> The following images created by you in your above post shows they are different, so you were in your saying that
> "Just look at the tail, it is exactly that bird as shown already so often. It is one of the final two batch 01 J-10B"
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/chengdu-...fighter-air-craft.3218/page-551#ixzz4SZhOl2ja
> The left one has one more yellow color device(antenna?) next to the lights on the vertical tale. So there is one more J10 powered by WS-10 other than 1035.




I did look at them ... very closely but IMO You are over-interpreting minor differences like this yellow "thing".





> Example 2
> This said first production J-10C in the army service has a blade-shaped antenna next to the lights on the tale, which makes it a second one different than 1035.



YES exactly ... that's one of the two WS-10B-trial-equipped final batch 01 J-10B aka c/n 1-54 or 1-55. So YES, this is one of the two other WS-10-powered J-10s besides 1035 & 1004.




> 2.49 has the same blade and the same location (towards the front edge), but it doesn't have MAW



Correct ... which makes it a plain a simple standard J-10B batch 01 !



> Example 3
> Another production J-10C seems have a very different nozzle color than the 1035



IMO this darker ring is easily explainable with longer use. The longer this engine - seems to be indeed some sort of modification on the latest WS-10-batch, since it can be seen on some Flankers too - the darker this ring becomes. Not sure why, I really would not jump on that waggon to tell each and every slightly differently coloured engine as a new type.




> Just because no images of the production J-10C in yellow with designated c/n doesn't mean it doesn't exist. People have seen them claimed due to the similarity of their appearance we should use "black nozzle is B, white is C" to tell which is which. Using minor changes of antenna or MAW are not reliable because even 2.01/02/03 production J-10B are different than the 2.07 and onwards in the same batch.
> 
> It is. If the claim is true that Batch 2 is J-10C, then why there is no single image of the 5 prototype J-10C or any prototype available? Why 5 prototypes had to be produced just for some minor changes of antenna/MAW? Why they are so secret while we have all these so-claimed production J-10C in yellow color posted up here on almost daily basis? It does not make sense, does it?



Agreed, but since we have no prove for green men on Mars, that does not mean they exist. The typical problem with trying to prove something with the absence of a contrary proof.

1. You are the only one who speaks about 5 prototype J-10C ? IMO these are no images, since they don't exist. We only have one confirmed, namely 1051, that's all. As such all Your following arguments are mute ... IMO the differences between B & C are only avionics-wise and if the systems are running, there's no need for additional prototypes, since aerodynamically all tests can be done with J-10B. Again, IMO it makes perfectly sense.

But finally again: You still owe me an explanation, what do You mean with "white" and "black" engines on a J-10B or C. So what's Your difference to tell a J-10 a B and what to call it C ?? I still don't get it.


Maybe the only solution to our discussion is to wait until we get a clear image showing us the c/n.

All the best,
Deino


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## Tiqiu

Deino said:


> Uiuiuiuiuiui ... what a lot to reply !
> 
> 
> 
> I think I posted it in the Zhuhai thread first, but anyway it does not make ac difference. It is the same bird.
> 
> 
> 
> I mean the two WS-10B-trial-equipped final batch 01 J-10B c/n 1-54 & 1-55. So YES, we have altogether four WS-10-powered J-10s of any version confirmed. All more are speculation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMO as by the reports I read in the same way as on all J-1A and B ... now only as J-10C02xx ! But sadly I cannot confirm it since theses numbers are too small to see on the images we know so far.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did look at them ... very closely but IMO You are over-interpreting minor differences like this yellow "thing".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YES exactly ... that's one of the two WS-10B-trial-equipped final batch 01 J-10B aka c/n 1-54 or 1-55. So YES, this is one of the two other WS-10-powered J-10s besides 1035 & 1004.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Correct ... which makes it a plain a simple standard J-10B batch 01 !
> 
> 
> 
> IMO this darker ring is easily explainable with longer use. The longer this engine - seems to be indeed some sort of modification on the latest WS-10-batch, since it can be seen on some Flankers too - the darker this ring becomes. Not sure why, I really would not jump on that waggon to tell each and every slightly differently coloured engine as a new type.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, but since we have no prove for green men on Mars, that does not mean they exist. The typical problem with trying to prove something with the absence of a contrary proof.
> 
> 1. You are the only one who speaks about 5 prototype J-10C ? IMO these are no images, since they don't exist. We only have one confirmed, namely 1051, that's all. As such all Your following arguments are mute ... IMO the differences between B & C are only avionics-wise and if the systems are running, there's no need for additional prototypes, since aerodynamically all tests can be done with J-10B. Again, IMO it makes perfectly sense.
> 
> But finally again: You still owe me an explanation, what do You mean with "white" and "black" engines on a J-10B or C. So what's Your difference to tell a J-10 a B and what to call it C ?? I still don't get it.
> 
> 
> Maybe the only solution to our discussion is to wait until we get a clear image showing us the c/n.
> 
> All the best,
> Deino


Can you give us the image of 1-55? I thought batch 1 ends on 1-54.

As to what is the attribute categorizing B and C, my answer is the upgrade engine with bigger thrust (white nozzle) to replace the previous engine(black nozzle, it is not the avionics changes. As you said, we really need to wait for the images of yellow birds powered by white nozzle, preferably with the c/n printed becoming available.

And please consider this, it will be very unwise, if not stupid, to use some of the technologies acquired from the making of the J-20 into the making of the J-10 by CAC, which should be a troublesome practice. China needs a J-10C with superior capabilities than J-10B in all aspects before considering to export the J-10B to other countries.


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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> Can you give us the image of 1-55? I thought batch 1 ends on 1-54.



Regrettably not, since both aircraft were only seen already painted with the c/n no longer visible. Hover it is based on severla reports (including Huitong).



> As to what is the attribute categorizing B and C, my answer is the upgrade engine with bigger thrust (white nozzle) to replace the previous engine(black nozzle, it is not the avionics changes. As you said, we really need to wait for the images of yellow birds powered by white nozzle, preferably with the c/n printed becoming available.



Agreed, but even if I agree with You, the engine would be a fine item to differ between a B and a C, it is IMO not that way. As such I still don't get it, since You miss the regular - can we say "blue" nozzle J-10B ? But what are then the J-10B powered by AL-31FN called ???

Maybe to sort out - IMO we have: 

the whole batch 01 J-10B ranging from 1-01 to 1-53 powered by AL-31FN Series 3
the final two batch 01 J-10B 1-54 and 1-55 powered by WS-10B (with that lighter ring in front of the nozzle) ... You call them J-10B; so I agree.
The whole batch 02 - IMO called J-10C - ranging so far from 2-01 to 2-49 also powered by AL-31FN Series 3 
... here are two images so far hinting a "dark" nozzle on a WS-10-powered aircarft ... IMO this is not a new engine but simply a sign of use.



> And please consider this, it will be very unwise, if not stupid, to use some of the technologies acquired from the making of the J-20 into the making of the J-10 by CAC, which should be a troublesome practice. China needs a J-10C with superior capabilities than J-10B in all aspects before considering to export the J-10B to other countries.



Agreed, but an AESA is that mayor increase in capabilities ... and as such a new letter C is justified. The engine so far is it not, since there are simply no more than four confirmed WS-10-powered J-10s.

Deino


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## grey boy 2

J-10B

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## cirr

Deino said:


> Thanks ... the well known 2-35 spotted for the first time on 8. March 2016.
> 
> Any info on if there are numbers higher than 2-49? That bird was the so far highest number I know (30. September 2016)?

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## Deino

cirr said:


>




Sorry, but Your linked image does not show up (at least here at work) ... what did I made wrong ???


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## grey boy 2

Deino said:


> Sorry, but Your linked image does not show up (at least here at work) ... what did I made wrong ???

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## Deino

Thank You so much .... so we are close to the end of batch 02 if it also has 55 aircraft.

Will be interesting, what comes next.

Deino

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## Tiqiu

Deino said:


> Thank You so much .... so we are close to the end of batch 02 if it also has 55 aircraft.
> 
> Will be interesting, what comes next.
> 
> Deino


55 can't be the total number for batch 2, or batch 1. The reason is simple; first, it is an odd number, second, the number is not the multiple number of the total number of J-10 deployed/to be deployed in each regiment. If you look back at your list of how many J-10A were produced in each batches, then the pattern is quite clear.



Deino said:


> Agreed, but an AESA is that mayor increase in capabilities ... and as such a new letter C is justified. The engine so far is it not, since there are simply no more than four confirmed WS-10-powered J-10s.


But J-10B never used PESA; it used AESA from the day one. 
According to the interview of the deputy chief designer of the Chinese AWCAS including ZDK03, China never developed PESA.There was no single image of PESA on J-10B. Your argument of the radar upgrade to AESA justifying the using of C is invalid.

This is what Mr Cao at CETC said in the interview:" 我国以机载预警雷达为突破口，实现了机载雷达装备从机械扫描到有源相控阵的跨越，*没有搞无源相控阵*，在世界上首次装备二维有源相控阵预警雷达，也就是说雷达波束在水平方向上和高度方向上都能电子扫描，由此也带动了战斗机火控雷达装备采用有源相控阵。"
http://club.china.com/data/thread/12171906/2736/26/18/9_1.html

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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> 55 can't be the total number for batch 2, or batch 1. The reason is simple; first, it is an odd number, second, the number is not the multiple number of the total number of J-10 deployed/to be deployed in each regiment. If you look back at your list of how many J-10A were produced in each batches, then the pattern is quite clear.




Sorry ... then You need to explain please:

1. Why does the number of aircraft per batch has to be even ?
2. Concerning the J-10A batches ... IMO they fit quite nicely to the number of known aircraft: Or what is Your revised estimation of batches and number of J-10A build in overall ? ... and why has this pattern to be the same with the J-10B?

Thanks in advance,
Deino


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## Tiqiu

Deino said:


> Sorry ... then You need to explain please:
> 
> 1. Why does the number of aircraft per batch has to be even ?
> 2. Concerning the J-10A batches ... IMO they fit quite nicely to the number of known aircraft: Or what is Your revised estimation of batches and number of J-10A build in overall ? ... and why has this pattern to be the same with the J-10B?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Deino


A lead plane with a wingman is a basic 2-plane battle formation. When a country buys fighter jets, the total number is normally an even number, like 32, 24,18 and so on.

A full size of the J-10 regiment is thought consisting of 24 jets. Some mixed regiment will have maybe 2/3 of the J-10 plus some J-10S or else. That is why I think 55 ore 110 can't be the total number, whereas 54 + 54 sounds fitting well in this theory.


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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> A lead plane with a wingman is a basic 2-plane battle formation. When a country buys fighter jets, the total number is normally an even number, like 32, 24,18 and so on.
> 
> A full size of the J-10 regiment is thought consisting of 24 jets. Some mixed regiment will have maybe 2/3 of the J-10 plus some J-10S or else. That is why I think 55 ore 110 can't be the total number, whereas 54 + 54 sounds fitting well in this theory.




Ok. ... but what was wrong with the number of aircraft for the J-10A batches or did I mistunderstand Your reply ?

What's Your guess then on the number of J-10B/C build so far and You mentioned, that they are already assigned to 6 regiments: Care to explain which ones ? 
As far as I know only the 170. Brigade FTTC, a Regiment within the 2. Division and 19. Division are confirmed. For the C there are also reports about another maybe within the 44. Division and Huitong also mentions the 21. Division and 176. Brigade, but for the 21. Div these were J-10A as far as I know and for the 176. I don't think the PLAAF will add another plane to the J-20s. I think they are more likely also within the 170. Brigade complementing the J-10B.

So what do You know, what's Your guess?

Thanks in advance,
Deino


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## 星海军事

Tiqiu said:


> 55 can't be the total number for batch 2, or batch 1. The reason is simple; first, it is an odd number, second, the number is not the multiple number of the total number of J-10 deployed/to be deployed in each regiment. If you look back at your list of how many J-10A were produced in each batches, then the pattern is quite clear.
> 
> 
> But J-10B never used PESA; it used AESA from the day one.
> According to the interview of the deputy chief designer of the Chinese AWCAS including ZDK03, China never developed PESA.There was no single image of PESA on J-10B. Your argument of the radar upgrade to AESA justifying the using of C is invalid.
> 
> This is what Mr Cao at CETC said in the interview:" 我国以机载预警雷达为突破口，实现了机载雷达装备从机械扫描到有源相控阵的跨越，*没有搞无源相控阵*，在世界上首次装备二维有源相控阵预警雷达，也就是说雷达波束在水平方向上和高度方向上都能电子扫描，由此也带动了战斗机火控雷达装备采用有源相控阵。"
> http://club.china.com/data/thread/12171906/2736/26/18/9_1.html
> 
> View attachment 360174



这里说没有搞无源相控阵，指的是*机载预警雷达*没搞无源相控阵，并非*机载火控雷达*没搞无源相控阵。


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## hk299792458

星海军事 said:


> 这里说没有搞无源相控阵，指的是*机载预警雷达*没搞无源相控阵，并非*机载火控雷达*没搞无源相控阵。



Exactement, yesterday in an another TV footage, one of the academicians from CETC 14th confirmed that they have already developed PESA for fire control radar.

Henri K.


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## Tiqiu

星海军事 said:


> 这里说没有搞无源相控阵，指的是*机载预警雷达*没搞无源相控阵，并非*机载火控雷达*没搞无源相控阵。



Are you being serious?

Read, or ask others to read this simple sentence again before we talk again. 

"我国以机载预警雷达为突破口，实现了机载雷达装备从机械扫描到有源相控阵的跨越，*没有搞无源相控阵,*在世界上首次装备二维有源相控阵预警雷达，也就是说雷达波束在水平方向上和高度方向上都能电子扫描，由此也带动了战斗机火控雷达装备采用有源相控阵。"
*



hk299792458 said:



Exactement, yesterday in an another TV footage, one of the academicians from CETC 14th confirmed that they have already developed PESA for fire control radar.

Henri K.

Click to expand...

*
Needless to say, you know whom I pick between you or Mr.Cao, the deputy chief designer of the Chinese AWCAS including ZDK03







Deino said:


> Ok. ... but what was wrong with the number of aircraft for the J-10A batches or did I mistunderstand Your reply ?
> 
> What's Your guess then on the number of J-10B/C build so far and You mentioned, that they are already assigned to 6 regiments: Care to explain which ones ?
> As far as I know only the 170. Brigade FTTC, a Regiment within the 2. Division and 19. Division are confirmed. For the C there are also reports about another maybe within the 44. Division and Huitong also mentions the 21. Division and 176. Brigade, but for the 21. Div these were J-10A as far as I know and for the 176. I don't think the PLAAF will add another plane to the J-20s. I think they are more likely also within the 170. Brigade complementing the J-10B.
> 
> So what do You know, what's Your guess?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Deino


I think the J-10A's number is accurate. I speculate that the batch1 of 24 was for FTRC, and 4 each for 10 regiments in the next 6 consecutive batches to reach 24 in each full regiment.

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## 星海军事

Tiqiu said:


> Are you being serious?
> 
> Read, or ask others to read this simple sentence again before we talk again.
> 
> "我国以机载预警雷达为突破口，实现了机载雷达装备从机械扫描到有源相控阵的跨越，*没有搞无源相控阵,*在世界上首次装备二维有源相控阵预警雷达，也就是说雷达波束在水平方向上和高度方向上都能电子扫描，由此也带动了战斗机火控雷达装备采用有源相控阵。"
> *
> 
> 
> *
> Needless to say, you know whom I pick between you or Mr.Cao, the deputy chief designer of the Chinese AWCAS including ZDK03
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the J-10A's number is accurate. I speculate that the batch1 of 24 was for FTRC, and 4 each for 10 regiments in the next 6 consecutive batches to reach 24 in each full regiment.



It is simply your misunderstanding.

China has a long history of developing PESA radar and we already have airborne PESA fire control radar deployed.






Our first practical airborne PESA fire control radar was exactly developed by the 14th Research Institute of CETC.





Apart from the 14th Institute, Radar and Electronics Equipment Research Institute of AVIC also has the experience of designing airborne PESA fire control radar.

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## hk299792458

I always ask myself why there is always a small group of fanboys who just can't listen to the fact, and prefer believe what they want to believe ?

A real strange phenomenon for me...

@星海军事, would you mind to share with me the original document for your last image ? You can just send it to me by MP or Email if you want. Thanks.

Henri K.

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## Tiqiu

星海军事 said:


> It is simply your misunderstanding.
> 
> China has a long history of developing PESA radar and we already have airborne PESA fire control radar deployed.


It seems you are the one misunderstood here. The focal point of my discussion with Dieno was whether J-10B used PESA or AESA, which in turn would give us a base to judge if J-10C became alive due to the radar upgrade. In order to prove my point that J-10B used AESA, I gave the link of the interview of the Chinese airborne radar designer at CETC and quoted his very sentence about the Chinese airborne radar which I summarized as “China never developed PESA”

So first of the first, instead of nitpicking, you could have just come straight to the point to rebut my conclusion by simply providing an image of this PESA depicted in your billboard photo on the J-10B

Second, isn't it better if you could put down the translation of that one sentence I quoted to let other non-Chinese members to judge whether I was misunderstood? Since you didn't bother, so I translated this one sentence word-for-word to prevent what he truly wanted to say from getting lost in translation/context.

Here below is the translation from the original sentence that follows:
“Using the development of airborne early warning radar as a breaking point, our country achieved the leap forward from mechanically-scanned to AESA for our airborne radar system, without developing PESA, became the first country in the world to equip a two-dimensional AESA, in other words the radar wave can scan horizontally and vertically, which drove the use of the AESA on fighter jets.”

"我国以机载预警雷达为突破口，实现了机载雷达装备从机械扫描到有源相控阵的跨越，没有搞无源相控阵,在世界上首次装备二维有源相控阵预警雷达，也就是说雷达波束在水平方向上和高度方向上都能电子扫描，由此也带动了战斗机火控雷达装备采用有源相控阵。"

You could argue that I should not have just summarized in few words of this one-but-rather-very-lengthy sentence. You could even argue that I might not have known this Chinese PESA until you brought it up. But you could not argue it contradicts what I said about the J-10B using AESA.

BTW, your understanding of this sentence was wrong. You said: “这里说没有搞无源相控阵，指的是*机载预警雷达*没搞无源相控阵，并非*机载火控雷达*没搞无源相控阵。” I think any members here with sound Chinese language skills could tell that your interpretation and summarization is wrong. Read the whole original sentence, especially the very end of the sentence of “which drove the use of the AESA on fighter jets”, I can't see from where you got the idea that He meant, as you interpreted in your reply in Chinese, that " no-development of AESA here means no-development of AESA for airborne AWCAS, not no-development for airborne fire control radar."

Third, since you did not provide links, so I don't know whether your images are from open credible sources or genuine. Even if they are verifiable, it was clearly stated it was for the L-15B, a non-fighter jet technically speaking. Also the fact that it did not have an official model name may suggest it was just a prototype or a certain type of research endeavorment, not the full development project enlisted by the army establishments for Chinese* FIGHTER JETS.*

Forth, if this PESA is a matured product, then why no Chinese* FIGHTER JETS *were reported using it so far? Not even JF-17 thunder? Why still no images of it even we already had images of the more advanced/classified Chinese AESA for J-10,J-16 and J-20?

Lastly, at Dingxin base PLAAF conducted “red sword” military exercise in med-Nov., in which the J-10B was said to play the main attackers. Now we all know that two J-20 jets have taken part in this exercise and allegedly scored 10:0 against J-10B. Do you seriously believe the PESA-equipped J-10B can take on the J-20?



hk299792458 said:


> I always ask myself why there is always a small group of fanboys who just can't listen to the fact, and prefer believe what they want to believe ?
> 
> A real strange phenomenon for me...


Actually I am quite happy being named “fanboy” for simply I prefer believe what I thought it is trustworthy and from credible sources, not from a pseudo-journalist in Chinese military affairs like you.

The difference between Deino and you is he lacks of audacity than you .

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## hk299792458

Tiqiu said:


> Actually I am quite happy being named “fanboy” for simply I prefer believe what I thought it is trustworthy and from credible sources, not from a pseudo-journalist in Chinese military affairs like you.
> 
> The difference between Deino and you is he lacks of audacity than you .



Have a look on this my young, listen very carefully to what the academician from CETC 14th say from the begining till the end, then please come back and tell me if China has already developped PESA fire control radar for military aircraft.






And to be clear on one point, I'm not a pseudo-journalist, I work in aviation industry and my website is just for my personal passion on China.

IMPO, Deino is too "soft" with fanboy, if I'm moderator I would prefer make them all banned and let the place for those who want to discuss normally.

Henri K.

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## Tiqiu

hk299792458 said:


> Have a look on this my young, listen very carefully to what the academician from CETC 14th say from the begining till the end, then please come back and tell me if China has already developped PESA fire control radar for military aircraft.


I have watched every bit of it, getting perfectly clear about what he said. To make sure you know what you are talking about, I need you quote his saying re: PESA first before I give you my comments.


hk299792458 said:


> And to be clear on one point, I'm not a pseudo-journalist, I work in aviation industry and my website is just for my personal passion on China.


Sounded very Impressive. But your contribution here didn't seem to add up to your claim.Or maybe you just enjoy free-riding.


hk299792458 said:


> IMPO, Deino is too "soft" with fanboy, if I'm moderator I would prefer make them all banned and let the place for those who want to discuss normally.


You didn't read the comments of your reader on your site, did you? And without the lead and info provided by many your socalled "fanboys" here, you have nothing to write about the Chinese military affairs.

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## 星海军事

First, by quoting and underlining this sentence in this particular situation, I suppose you are arguing that China did not develop any airborne fire control radar. 



Tiqiu said:


> Are you being serious?
> 
> Read, or ask others to read this simple sentence again before we talk again.
> 
> "我国以机载预警雷达为突破口，实现了机载雷达装备从机械扫描到有源相控阵的跨越，*没有搞无源相控阵,*在世界上首次装备二维有源相控阵预警雷达，也就是说雷达波束在水平方向上和高度方向上都能电子扫描，由此也带动了战斗机火控雷达装备采用有源相控阵。"



But your translation of the sentence has an obvious omission,



Tiqiu said:


> “Using the development of airborne early warning radar as a breaking point, our country achieved the leap forward from mechanically-scanned to AESA for our airborne radar system, without developing PESA, became the first country in the world to equip a two-dimensional AESA, in other words the radar wave can scan horizontally and vertically, which drove the use of the AESA on fighter jets.”



The correct translation should be,

“Using the development of airborne early warning radar as a breaking point, our country achieved the leap forward from mechanically-scanned to AESA for our airborne radar system, without developing PESA, became the first country in the world to equip a two-dimensional AESA *early warning radar*, in other words the radar wave can scan horizontally and vertically, which drove the use of the AESA on fighter jets.”

As I have already exemplified, China did develope and deploy airborne PESA *fire control radar*. However, J-10C, J-16/16D and J-11D are clearly equiped with AESA fire control radar. Therefore, the only fighter that is equiped with PESA fire control radar ought to be J-10B.



Tiqiu said:


> It seems you are the one misunderstood here. The focal point of my discussion with Dieno was whether J-10B used PESA or AESA,



Did I misunderstood anything or did you get all the points?

By all appearances, the first half of the sentence you quote is merely suggesting China did not develope airborne PESA early warning radar.





“We did develope PESA. For instance, J-10 is equipted with PESA.” -- N.A. Ben De, chief designer of the 14th institute, first man of Chinese phased array radar

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## Tiqiu

@hk299792458, I knew you would hide behind your mate's shadow waiting for @星海军事 to answer for you , that is why I asked you to quote what the man said in that video. You are too predictable.


星海军事 said:


> First, by quoting and underlining this sentence in this particular situation, I suppose you are arguing that China did not develop any airborne fire control radar.


Then you should at least make yourself aware about what Deino and I were talking about before offload yourself on someone.



星海军事 said:


> But your translation of the sentence has an obvious omission,


Thanks for agreeing all my translation "Using the development of airborne early warning radar as a breaking point, our country achieved the leap forward from mechanically-scanned to AESA for our airborne radar system, without developing PESA, became the first country in the world to equip a two-dimensional AESA *early warning radar*, in other words the radar wave can scan horizontally and vertically, which drove the use of the AESA on fighter jets.”, except the 3-word* "early warning radar*" I forgot.

If you thought I did this "obvious omission" on purpose, then what I should call you who tried to make non-Chinese members to believe that the sentence means "no-development of AESA here means no-development of AESA for airborne AWCAS, not no-development for airborne fire control radar."?



星海军事 said:


> As I have already exemplified, China did develope and deploy airborne PESA *fire control radar*. However, J-10C, J-16/16D and J-11D are clearly equiped with AESA fire control radar. Therefore, the only fighter that is equiped with PESA fire control radar ought to be J-10B.


What did Mr Ben De say does lead to your above conclusion.

This is what he said at 6:56:" 无源相控阵过去俄罗斯用的比较多,我们也*做过*无援无源相控阵,我们J-10飞机上就*用过*无源相控阵". My translation of it is " in the past Russia used many PESA, we did/tried to do PESA, it had been put on our J-10". The informal use and the past tense of the verb *做过*(did/tried) and *用过(*was used/been tested) may suggest China may have developed some prototype of PESA or maybe borrowed some Russian model,a full swing official enlisted development of PESA hasn't been really undergone.

At 9:58 he said:" J-20 is the first to use AESA; J-10 changed to AESA as well( he did not specify changing from Pulse Doppler or PESA), J-11 also used it; we will covert all our old radar to AESA on all our jets like the US".

Not at one single point of time has he ever mentioned or hinted that J-10 is equipped with PESA.

To end all this madness, just give us the model name and images of this obsolete/knock off PESA you said China developed.



Deino said:


> Ok. ... but what was wrong with the number of aircraft for the J-10A batches or did I mistunderstand Your reply ?
> 
> What's Your guess then on the number of J-10B/C build so far and You mentioned, that they are already assigned to 6 regiments: Care to explain which ones ?
> As far as I know only the 170. Brigade FTTC, a Regiment within the 2. Division and 19. Division are confirmed. For the C there are also reports about another maybe within the 44. Division and Huitong also mentions the 21. Division and 176. Brigade, but for the 21. Div these were J-10A as far as I know and for the 176. I don't think the PLAAF will add another plane to the J-20s. I think they are more likely also within the 170. Brigade complementing the J-10B.
> 
> So what do You know, what's Your guess?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Deino


who is Huitong? I think he is right about 21 as 61 regiment has 18+6 facing Korea.

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## Beast

JL-10/ L-15 equipped with PESA but I believe it's for export only. PLAAF L-15/JL-10 are w/o radar


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## hk299792458

Tiqiu said:


> @hk299792458, I knew you would hide behind your mate's shadow waiting for @星海军事 to answer for you , that is why I asked you to quote what the man said in that video. You are too predictable.
> 
> Then you should at least make yourself aware about what Deino and I were talking about before offload yourself on someone.
> 
> 
> Thanks for agreeing all my translation "Using the development of airborne early warning radar as a breaking point, our country achieved the leap forward from mechanically-scanned to AESA for our airborne radar system, without developing PESA, became the first country in the world to equip a two-dimensional AESA *early warning radar*, in other words the radar wave can scan horizontally and vertically, which drove the use of the AESA on fighter jets.”, except the 3-word* "early warning radar*" I forgot.
> 
> If you thought I did this "obvious omission" on purpose, then what I should call you who tried to make non-Chinese members to believe that the sentence means "no-development of AESA here means no-development of AESA for airborne AWCAS, not no-development for airborne fire control radar."?
> 
> 
> What did Mr Ben De say does lead to your above conclusion.
> 
> This is what he said at 6:56:" 无源相控阵过去俄罗斯用的比较多,我们也*做过*无援无源相控阵,我们J-10飞机上就*用过*无源相控阵". My translation of it is " in the past Russia used many PESA, we did/tried to do PESA, it had been put on our J-10". The informal use and the past tense of the verb *做过*(did/tried) and *用过(*was used/been tested) may suggest China may have developed some prototype of PESA or maybe borrowed some Russian model,a full swing official enlisted development of PESA hasn't been really undergone.
> 
> At 9:58 he said:" J-20 is the first to use AESA; J-10 changed to AESA as well( he did not specify changing from Pulse Doppler or PESA), J-11 also used it; we will covert all our old radar to AESA on all our jets like the US".
> 
> Not at one single point of time has he ever mentioned or hinted that J-10 is equipped with PESA.
> 
> To end all this madness, just give us the model name and images of this obsolete/knock off PESA you said China developed.
> 
> 
> who is Huitong? I think he is right about 21 as 61 regiment has 18+6 facing Korea.



The initial point is, you misunderstandsomething and quoted that China didn't develop any PESA radar.

Either @星海军事 or myself we have provided undiscutable fact. So, now young boy, please stick to the reality and recognize your error.

But if you want to continue this game, be sure that I'll be here. For the time being I've a lot of time to lose.

Henri K.


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## Tiqiu

hk299792458 said:


> The initial point is, you misunderstandsomething and quoted that China didn't develop any PESA radar.


No, the initial point is in my lengthy discussion with Dieno I advocated that J-10C is not the product of upgrading ASEA from PESA as no PESA has been developed(in the from of the Official enlisted project). This "China never developed PESA's idea came from the Vice-chief designer of the Chinese airborne radar in his interview on the army open media. 



hk299792458 said:


> Either @星海军事 or myself we have provided undiscutable fact. So, now young boy, please stick to the reality and recognize your error.


You provided nothing since you just gave me a link of a video which you could not understand a single word of it. As a matter of fact, any Chinese member here can come up with any link of something on the Chinese websites - it is a peanut.

And your mate @星海军事 proved nothing as well. He misinterpreted Mr De's words in his saying “We *did develope* PESA. For instance, J-10 *is equipted* with PESA.” I don't know whether he did it on purpose,or due to other reasons, however Mr De did not say WE "We did develop PESA ,J-10 is equipped with PESA". What he said in his original words were " 无源相控阵过去俄罗斯用的比较多,我们也*做过*无援无源相控阵,我们J-10飞机上就*用过*无源相控阵". In English it means" in the past Russia used many PESA, we did/tried to do PESA, it had been put on our J-10". 

How many times I have to ask you to read this again? The two verbs Mr De used were did/made/attempted/trialed, and used/tested/examined. He did not use the word "*develop"* and *"deploy*" at all. Perhaps it is time for you to remind your mate@星海军事 to take care of his present/past tense using skills. There is a huge difference between " PESA* was used *on J-10" and "J-10 i*s equiped* with PESA".

Me De did not say " we* developed* PESA"; Me De did not say "J-10* is equipped* with PESA"; You and you mate @星海军事 could not tell us the model name of this PESA used on the J-10B as I asked;You and you mate @星海军事 could not provide an image of this PESA as I asked. Therefore @星海军事 hasn't produced any your so-called "undiscussable" evidence at all.

Any body can easily find some images of the Chinese AESA from the net. Why is it so hard for your two to provide a damn picture of this PESA you said China has developed?











hk299792458 said:


> So, now young boy, please stick to the reality and recognize your error.
> 
> But if you want to continue this game, be sure that I'll be here. For the time being I've a lot of time to lose.
> 
> Henri K.


Unlike you, i actually loved being called young boy - I love soccer, been playing none-stop for nearly 40 yrs, my avatar name is kicking ball.

But if you want to indulge yourself into being snobby or conceited in front of us, you would certainly be humiliated. You may have achieved something, so have others. There are more than a hundred people like you( like you means culture background,race,etc) with engineering degree under my supervision. I work where I want, when I want and how I want. Moreover, I have more time to spend here than you if this is what you wanted me to do. You want any prove?

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## hk299792458

Tiqiu said:


> You provided nothing since you just gave me a link of a video which you could not understand a single word of it.



Ho ho, it is not because I'm a "foreigner" that I can't understand well the chinese langage.

Just for you information, the kind of things I read everyday is something like that -






But it's ok, if it is too hard for you to read those kind of thing, I can understand.



Tiqiu said:


> And your mate @星海军事 proved nothing as well. He misinterpreted Mr De's words in his saying “We *did develope* PESA. For instance, J-10 *is equipted* with PESA.” I don't know whether he did it on purpose,or due to other reasons, however Mr De did not say WE "We did develop PESA ,J-10 is equipped with PESA". What he said in his original words were " 无源相控阵过去俄罗斯用的比较多,我们也*做过*无援无源相控阵,我们J-10飞机上就*用过*无源相控阵". In English it means" in the past Russia used many PESA, we did/tried to do PESA, it had been put on our J-10".



Don't go too far first. Let's start with the original point - Had China already developped PESA radar, and used it somewhere ?

This is quoted from the video that I put in the previous page, but that you don't seem to understand. Let me be more precise then...
(Just saw that @星海军事 quoted the same, my bad..)













Now, if you have difficulties in understanding your mother tongue, I can give you some courses for free.

*Recognize your error*, and we can continue to discuss deployment of chinese PESA radars, or maybe give you some basic course on what is an ESA radar ?

I can even advise you a few reading I used a few years ago, the last one is really nice -






Very pleased to continue with you, young boy of 40 years-old... At least I got a lot of fun.

Henri K.

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## Tiqiu

hk299792458 said:


> Ho ho, it is not because I'm a "foreigner" that I can't understand well the chinese langage.
> 
> Just for you information, the kind of things I read everyday is something like that -


So what? Are you trying to tell me because I drove my German car every day, then I must be an expert mechanical engineer in German cars?


hk299792458 said:


> Don't go too far first. Let's start with the original point - Does China had already developped PESA radar, and used it somewhere ?



Do not twist the words in front of everyone here from *“We did develope PESA. For instance, J-10 is equipted with PESA.” -- N.A. Ben De, chief designer of the 14th institute, first man of Chinese phased array radar* to *"Does China had already developped PESA radar, and used it somewhere ?"*


To prove you don't need the Chinese tutoring from me, read the interview again and come back to me without your mate's help

http://club.china.com/data/thread/12171906/2736/26/18/9_1.html











hk299792458 said:


> *Recognize your error*, and we can continue to discuss deployment of chinese PESA radars, or maybe give you some basic course on what is an ESA radar ?


What error? Just tell me did Mr De in the footage say *“We did develope PESA. For instance, J-10 is equipted with PESA.”?*

At 6:56 he said:" *无源相控阵过去俄罗斯用的比较多,我们也做过无援无源相控阵,我们J-10飞机上就用过无源相控阵*". Ask anyone here who have a basic apprehension skills in Chinese language and basic English skills per present/past tense, no one can come up the same translation. I ll give my car away as a trophy for the one who can.






* 



hk299792458 said:



Very pleased to continue with you, young boy... At least I got a lot of fun.

Click to expand...

Challenge accepted. I have too much time to kill. *

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## hk299792458

Tiqiu said:


> So what? Are you trying to tell me because I drove my German car every day, then I must be an expert mechanical engineer in German cars?



At first you said that I can't understand one single word in the video, and now when you see that your original sentence had zero sense, you just try to bypass it ?

Once again you use the same technic, but it's not working on me.

You know you are a funny guys ? Do you understand why I call you young boy now ?



Tiqiu said:


> http://club.china.com/data/thread/12171906/2736/26/18/9_1.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 360657



曹晨 from CETC is one of the responsible of AWACS radar development, what's the link with what we are talking about ?

Because CETC didn't develop PESA for AWACS, and so you deduce that it never developped PESA for fire control radar ?

You know you are funny young boy ?



Tiqiu said:


> At 6:56 he said:" *无源相控阵过去俄罗斯用的比较多,我们也做过无源相控阵,我们J-10飞机上就用过无源相控阵*".



So, at least you admit the FACT that CETC had developped PESA ? So I accepted that you've recognized your initial error.

And I find you funny that you now try to protect yourself by adding a new word : "for instance".

What the academician said clearly make you wrong from the beginning, that you said :



Tiqiu said:


> But J-10B never used PESA; it used AESA from the day one.








And now ? Don't escape, face your error, and regconize it (well in some way you've already done, so...)



Tiqiu said:


> *Challenge accepted. I have too much time to kill. *



Don't worry, this game can last for years... Ready ?

Henri K.


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## Tiqiu

hk299792458 said:


> At first you said that I can't understand one single word in the video, and now when you see that your original sentence had zero sense, you just try to bypass it ?
> 
> Once again you use the same technic, but it's not working on me.
> 
> You know you are a funny guys ? Do you understand why I call you young boy now ?


Calling me " boy, funny guys,funny young boy, my young ,fanboys " does not tell others about me, it does tell others about you. Got it?

Before answering any of your question in relation to radars, just answer me if this statement made by your mate @星海军事 is true of false?

*“We did develope PESA. For instance, J-10 is equipted with PESA.” -- N.A. Ben De, chief designer of the 14th institute, first man of Chinese phased array radar *

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/chengdu-...fighter-air-craft.3218/page-553#ixzz4SyEZMQE7
https://defence.pk/threads/chengdu-...fighter-air-craft.3218/page-553#ixzz4SyEZMQE7



hk299792458 said:


> And now ? Don't escape, face your error, and regconize it (well in some way you've already done, so...)


You are playing God now. This sense of self-righteousness exhibited by what you just said is shared by some of your countrymen. I wonder why.


hk299792458 said:


> Don't worry, this game can last for years... Ready ?
> 
> Henri K.


Shouldn't we need to seek the permission of @Deino and others' first to be respectful? You do know "respectful", right?
I already told you to bring it on. Maybe it is better off we do it on a designated thread?

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## hk299792458

Tiqiu said:


> I already told you to bring it on.



Well, I didn't want to end you up that quick, as you bring me a lot of fun, but it's time to go to bed, 5h30 in the morning it's "late". 

So, let's remind everyone what you said before :



Tiqiu said:


> But J-10B never used PESA; it used AESA from the day one.



Now, would you mind to translate clearly what is written in this picture, so that everyone could understand well ?







And, actually it is not difficult to understand, except the fact that you didn't want to listen to us since the begining... If you come back to the original video of the academician of CETC, and make a link between some of his word, you will find a certain logic -




































The explaination is, the first J-10Bs were (or still are) equiped with PESA radar. Then while the new AESA radar is stabilized, the coming aircrafts a re upgraded with it.

Read more, listen more, and learn more.

Have a good night, and see you next time for another funny topic.

Henri K.

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## Tiqiu

hk299792458 said:


> Well, I didn't want to end you up that quick, as you bring me a lot of fun, but it's time to go to bed, 5h30 in the morning it's "late".


Likewise. Believe me If you spend less time here and more time elsewhere, you would have achieved the financial independence a long long time ago. Since now I can live to play, so you can tag me anytime you want except on my sleeping time. It's 4 pm on my clock now.

I don't want to answer any question of yours about radar until you answer my last question to you. Just to be fair you know.

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## 帅的一匹

You guys are rich


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## Tiqiu

hk299792458 said:


> Now, would you mind to translate clearly what is written in this picture, so that everyone could understand well ?



Just saw your other post made one week ago in which you gave this facial expression  to express your thoughts of this meyet site. And now you seek materials from this site to rebut me? A certain part of the traits of yours can never stop amusing me.



hk299792458 said:


> Meyet...
> 
> Henri K.


BTW, I have all the answers for the questions you asked, I ll give you only after you answer this simple question: did Mr. De say* “We did develope PESA. For instance, J-10 is equipted with PESA.” *

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## hk299792458

Tiqiu said:


> Likewise. Believe me If you spend less time here and more time elsewhere, you would have achieved the financial independence a long long time ago. Since now I can live to play, so you can tag me anytime you want except on my sleeping time. It's 4 pm on my clock now.
> 
> I don't want to answer any question of yours about radar until you answer my last question to you. Just to be fair you know.



呵呵，既然你拉扯到我个人身上来，那我好歹都要回两句吧。

从一开始你的观点已经是错误的，如果不是看到你回应的态度有点不正常，又不肯好好思考和接纳星海和我所提的论据，我本来是可以直接给你答案的，而不是逗着你来玩儿。

你们中国广东一带好像有一句谚语说：脸是人家给的，架是自己丢的。

你好好自己想去，不要四十好几的也是这样少年心态，人太冲不好。

看事情不要以偏概全，要连成一片来想。谁对谁错，群众的眼睛是雪亮的。别再给我一个外国人看你笑话。

好了，该说不该说的我都已经说了，你本来的问题也已经有了答案，自己去好好反省一下。下次有什么好玩的再聊，世界上又不止是你一个经济独立，在澳大利亚搞房地产的吗？

Henri K.

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## 帅的一匹

Easy, easy guys!


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## Tiqiu

hk299792458 said:


> 呵呵，既然你拉扯到我个人身上来，那我好歹都要回两句吧。
> 
> 从一开始你的观点已经是错误的，如果不是看到你回应的态度有点不正常，又不肯好好思考和接纳星海和我所提的论据，我本来是可以直接给你答案的，而不是逗着你来玩儿。


So now you admit you have been mocking with me all along? Is this your understandings of "be respectful" to me and others by doing what you are doing now?

All your evidences and proving were based on that ifeng video containing Mr De's words. All you need to do is just say if Mr.De said "*We did develope PESA. For instance, J-10 is equipted with PESA”. 
*
Any people have knowledge about China know ifeng( or other local TVs) are not official PLA channel. And Mr.De is not the only expert in radar field, the interview I provided bear equal, if not more weight because it was made by the Deputy chief designer of AWACS and the researcher at China Electronic Technology Group Corporation.

So if you enjoyed your so called "mocking with me", I enjoy it too if no objection from others.




hk299792458 said:


> 你们中国广东一带好像有一句谚语说：脸是人家给的，架是自己丢的。


Don't know if it is from Cantonese, but I understand the meaning of it quite well. That is why I was often invited to participate events that some could only dream of.

visiting CPC Central Committee Party School (中共中央党校)





paying tribute to Xi's father







hk299792458 said:


> 你好好自己想去，不要四十好几的也是这样少年心态，人太冲不好。


You should overcome your compulsion for making assumption. I wish I am still "四十好几"; "人太冲不好" doesn't work on me.


hk299792458 said:


> 看事情不要以偏概全，要连成一片来想。谁对谁错，群众的眼睛是雪亮的。别再给我一个外国人看你笑话。


Exactly people following our discussion outright would and will be able to make a judgement of their own. We can always re-visit here again when time is right.

"You are the laughing stock for foreigners now", seriously? You really meant to say this? But actually i think it is the another way around. I quite envy the affection between you and your mate and enjoy the couple dance opera (二人转).








hk299792458 said:


> 好了，该说不该说的我都已经说了，你本来的问题也已经有了答案，自己去好好反省一下。下次有什么好玩的再聊，世界上又不止是你一个经济独立，在澳大利亚搞房地产的吗？


No, that is too boring, no challenge. We are one of the world leading listed strategic metal mining co.s and producers.


Given you are someone who maybe older, plus you are caring what happens in China, so out of courtesy, I will break my words and answer the questions you raised once more.



hk299792458 said:


> Now, would you mind to translate clearly what is written in this picture, so that everyone could understand well ?


It only reads:"J-10B PESA Fire Control Radar"

Assume it is genuine, it does not prove that J-10B is equipped with a China-developed PESA. It doesn't specify the model name of this radar. For instance,behind the nameplate you can put a *Zhuk-F/Zhuk-PH *radar, a radar was developed starting in the late 80's featuring a PESA antenna instead of a slotted planar array, and never made it into service or out of development despite being offered for export.

In a same way, If you put an AF-31F engine behind the nameplate of "J-10A engine" and don't show the engine image, can you assume the engine " China-made"?

I asked you to translate the interview given by Cao Chen, Deputy chief designer of AWACS, researcher at China Electronic Technology Group Corporation on the official PLA news channel " Ordnance Knowledge"-兵器知识, but you were unwilling to do it. So I will do it for you just to make it a record here for others to judge.

The interview is in this edition of Ordnance Knowledge.










My translation of his first two sentences(from the beginning to the second full stop)

Cao: At present in the world, it has become a common trend that airborne radars are developed towards the direction of an Active Electronically Scanned Array(AESA),* it is so either for airborne early warning radars, or for airborne fire control radars, both of which are the main field of airborne radars 。*Using the development of airborne early warning radar as a breaking point, our country achieved *the leap forward from mechanically-scanned to AESA for our airborne radar system*,* without developing PESA*, became the first country in the world to equip a two-dimensional AESA (for early waring & control), in other words the radar wave can scan horizontally and vertically, which drove the use of the AESA on fighter jets* 。*

Although he is not yet an Academician of Chinese Academy of Engineering like Mr. De, but he is the prominent researcher at the head office of the 14th institute. And if you truly have knowledge about China, you know sometimes these young people are doing better jobs than some Academician of Chinese Academy of Engineering.

After Felcon was cancelled in 2000, Tikhomirov NIIP provided a model of PESA radar for testing. Are you aware of that?

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## hk299792458

@Tiqiu to be honnest I didn't read through your answer, especially when I see theater picture which has nothing to do with the topics in this forum.

Start from the original point which, I remind once again what you said to @Deino, which is FALSE :


Tiqiu said:


> But J-10B never used PESA; it used AESA from the day one.




And you lost the right to talk about "respect" with me once you've pronounced this kind of things first :



Tiqiu said:


> *not from a pseudo-journalist in Chinese military affairs like you*.
> The difference between Deino and you is he lacks of audacity than you .





Tiqiu said:


> Sounded very Impressive. But your contribution here didn't seem to add up to your claim.*Or maybe you just enjoy free-riding*.
> *You didn't read the comments of your reader on your site, did you?* And without the lead and info provided by many your socalled "fanboys" here, you have nothing to write about the Chinese military affairs.





Tiqiu said:


> *I knew you would hide behind your mate's shadow waiting for @星海军事 to answer for you* , that is why I asked you to quote what the man said in that video. You are too predictable.





Tiqiu said:


> You provided nothing since you just gave me a link of a video *which you could not understand a single word of it.*




Now I would also add a picture :






Recognize your error first, then I can teah you something useful, especially help you to understand the difference between a fire control radar and an AWACS one. 

Henri K.


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## Tiqiu

hk299792458 said:


> Start from the original point which, I remind once again what you said to @Deino, which is FALSE :


Everybody here would understand "used" means " equipped" in my conversation with Deino about the difference of the J-10B and C but you.

The picture has everything to do with our discussion since I have a strong hunch about something awkward between you and your mates after your long reply above in Chinese. By the way do you want me to translate it to others to see if you were trolling or not?



hk299792458 said:


> And you lost the right to talk about "respect" with me once you've pronounced this kind of things first :


Talking about first , then who said the following before our conversation even started?


hk299792458 said:


> I always ask myself why there is always a small group of fanboys who just can't listen to the fact, and prefer believe what they want to believe ?
> 
> A real strange phenomenon for me.



then who said these


hk299792458 said:


> now young boy





hk299792458 said:


> But if you want to continue this game, be sure that I'll be here. For the time being I've a lot of time to lose.





hk299792458 said:


> Now, if you have difficulties in understanding your mother tongue, I can give you some courses for free.





hk299792458 said:


> Very pleased to continue with you, young boy of 40 years-old... At least I got a lot of fun.





hk299792458 said:


> You know you are a funny guys ? Do you understand why I call you young boy now ?





hk299792458 said:


> You know you are funny young boy ?





hk299792458 said:


> Don't worry, this game can last for years... Ready ?
> 
> 
> hk299792458 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 不要四十好几的也是这样少年心态，人太冲不好。
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Henri K.
Click to expand...


As usual, you diverted from facing my questions again as expected.To save time for all, Just say if this statement made by your mate true or not?
*“We did develope PESA. For instance, J-10 is equipted with PESA.” -- N.A. Ben De, chief designer of the 14th institute, first man of Chinese phased array radar *

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## hk299792458

Tiqiu said:


> Everybody here would understand "used" means " equipped" in my conversation with Deino about the difference of the J-10B and C but you.
> 
> The picture has everything to do with our discussion since I have a strong hunch about something awkward between you and your mates after your long reply above in Chinese. By the way do you want me to translate it to others to see if you were trolling or not?
> 
> 
> Talking about first , then who said the following before our conversation even started?
> 
> 
> then who said these
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As usual, you diverted from facing my questions again as expected.To save time for all, Just say if this statement made by your mate true or not?
> *“We did develope PESA. For instance, J-10 is equipted with PESA.” -- N.A. Ben De, chief designer of the 14th institute, first man of Chinese phased array radar *



Dont' divert and recognize your error in the original point which, I remind once again what you said to @Deino, which is FALSE :


Tiqiu said:


> *But J-10B never used PESA; it used AESA from the day one.*


















And don't revert the reality, I started to say funny things with you AFTER your disrespectful words. Since then, you lost the right to talk about "respect" with me, even for now.

As far as you didn't admit your initial error, our conversation can last for years and years. And I will remind in each conversation the same point.

Henri K.


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## AlyxMS

I'm impressed by your patience, Henri K.

I nearly abandoned this forum months ago when these fanboys started attacking "foreigners" for saying something that contradicts their claims.

Of course I tried to change their minds by quoting some facts, and as expected it had absolutely no effect on them.

Now every time someone without a Chinese flag under their avatar says something they disagree, they'll immediately jump to the standard response of "I speak Chinese, you don't, so I have access to more sources." I guess it's a good thing that I am Chinese so I don't get this "standard treatment".

As you see here, they'll never change their mind nor will they show you their "secrete Chinese source", even when they are surrounded by your sources and references.

I'm sure deep in their mind, they know they screwd up and was wrong about a lot of things, but they can't admit it because they don't want to "lose face".

I agree with you that the mods are being a bit too easy on them. Although tolerance is a good thing as it encourages criticism and allows people to present opinions that differ from the majority, but at this point they are driving actual Chinese military enthusiasts away from here. It is no longer possible to have a discussion here without being attacked on a personal or national level.

But seems like you have plenty of time and you are getting some enjoyment from this, so keep going, I guess.

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## Deino

@AlyxMS 

Thank You so much for Your post !


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## Akasa

AlyxMS said:


> I'm impressed by your patience, Henri K.
> 
> I nearly abandoned this forum months ago when these fanboys started attacking "foreigners" for saying something that contradicts their claims.
> 
> Of course I tried to change their minds by quoting some facts, and as expected it had absolutely no effect on them.
> 
> Now every time someone without a Chinese flag under their avatar says something they don't disagree, they'll immediately jump to the standard response of "I speak Chinese, you don't, so I have access to more sources." I guess it's a good thing that I am Chinese so I don't get this "standard treatment".
> 
> As you see here, they'll never change their mind nor will they show you their "secrete Chinese source", even when they are surrounded by your sources and references.
> 
> I'm sure deep in their mind, they know they screwd up and was wrong about a lot of things, but they can't admit it because they don't want to "lose face".
> 
> I agree with you that the mods are being a bit too easy on them. Although tolerance is a good thing as it encourages criticism and allows people to present opinions that differ from the majority, but at this point they are driving actual Chinese military enthusiasts away from here. It is no longer possible to have a discussion here without attack on a personal or national level.
> 
> But seems like you have plenty of time and you are getting some enjoyment from this, so keep going, I guess.



After being accused of being an Indian "false-flagger", I fully concur with what you've observed. It's as if these people are completely closed to opinions different from their own (which is why so few forums are of good quality anymore).

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## Tiqiu

hk299792458 said:


> Dont' divert and recognize your error in the original point which, I remind once again what you said to @Deino, which is FALSE :


You were showing me you couldn't not help but make your foolish assumption again.

I will always stick to that the statement made by * @**星海军事 "Therefore, the only fighter that is equiped with PESA fire control radar ought to be J-10B" *is wrong.
* *
I will always stick to what I said " *But J-10B never used PESA; it used AESA from the day one." *made in my rebuttal that J-10B is not equipped with PESA based on this.








hk299792458 said:


> And don't revert the reality, I started to say funny things with you AFTER your disrespectful words. Since then, you lost the right to talk about "respect" with me, even for now.



Now I think you are a funny man now. Do you really understand the caption words in the images?
First: for instance on our J-10
Second: It used to use it
So is this your only evidence to support " J-10B is equipped with China-developed PESA"?

Like me give you a quick walk through history about China's radar development:
1) China's radar R&D and production facilities(including institute 14, 607) were set up by the help of the USSR back in 60s
2) China developed its own PD airborne radar KLJ-1 in 80s but still kept using NO01E/P PD imported from Russia
3)in 1997 China got one PERO PESA from Russia to update NO01 to NO01EPF (PESA)
4) in 2000 China also got one ZHUK-MSFE SKOL antenna from NIIP
5) in 2008, as China made a break through on AESA and tested on jets. so China -Russia co-op on PESA stopped

So because that J-10 did try some PERO PESA in the past, it doesn't mean It is quipped with PESA.










AlyxMS said:


> I'm impressed by your patience, Henri K.
> 
> I nearly abandoned this forum months ago when these fanboys started attacking "foreigners" for saying something that contradicts their claims.
> 
> Of course I tried to change their minds by quoting some facts, and as expected it had absolutely no effect on them.
> 
> Now every time someone without a Chinese flag under their avatar says something they disagree, they'll immediately jump to the standard response of "I speak Chinese, you don't, so I have access to more sources." I guess it's a good thing that I am Chinese so I don't get this "standard treatment".
> 
> As you see here, they'll never change their mind nor will they show you their "secrete Chinese source", even when they are surrounded by your sources and references.
> 
> I'm sure deep in their mind, they know they screwd up and was wrong about a lot of things, but they can't admit it because they don't want to "lose face".
> 
> I agree with you that the mods are being a bit too easy on them. Although tolerance is a good thing as it encourages criticism and allows people to present opinions that differ from the majority, but at this point they are driving actual Chinese military enthusiasts away from here. It is no longer possible to have a discussion here without being attacked on a personal or national level.
> 
> But seems like you have plenty of time and you are getting some enjoyment from this, so keep going, I guess.


I am not surprised at all that someone like you would always find a way to stand out from the rest in the right moment.
What has surprised my is your poor skills to back your claims, compared to your excellent marketing tactics.

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## hk299792458

Tiqiu said:


> You were showing me you couldn't not help but make your foolish assumption again.
> 
> I will always stick to that the statement made by * @**星海军事 "Therefore, the only fighter that is equiped with PESA fire control radar ought to be J-10B" *is wrong.
> * *
> I will always stick to what I said " *But J-10B never used PESA; it used AESA from the day one." *made in my rebuttal that J-10B is not equipped with PESA based on this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I think you are a funny man now. Do you really understand the caption words in the images?
> First: for instance on our J-10
> Second: It used to use it
> So is this your only evidence to support " J-10B is equipped with China-developed PESA"?
> 
> Like me give you a quick walk through history about China's radar development:
> 1) China's radar R&D and production facilities(including institute 14, 607) were set up by the help of the USSR back in 60s
> 2) China developed its own PD airborne radar KLJ-1 in 80s but still kept using NO01E/P PD imported from Russia
> 3)in 1997 China got one PERO PESA from Russia to update NO01 to NO01EPF (PESA)
> 4) in 2000 China also got one ZHUK-MSFE SKOL antenna from NIIP
> 5) in 2008, as China made a break through on AESA and tested on jets. so China -Russia co-op on PESA stopped
> 
> So because that J-10 did try some PERO PESA in the past, it doesn't mean It is quipped with PESA.
> View attachment 361189
> View attachment 361190
> 
> 
> 
> I am not surprised at all that someone like you would always find a way to stand out from the rest in the right moment.
> What has surprised my is your poor skills to back your claims, compared to your excellent marketing tactics.



Dont' divert and recognize your error in the original point which, I remind once again what you said to @Deino, which is FALSE :


Tiqiu said:


> *But J-10B never used PESA; it used AESA from the day one.*


















Learn first there is a huge difference between AWACS radar (that you quoted) and fire control radar (that's the topic here). Once you can't understand this point, all other arguments you could say are pull shit.

And, as far as you didn't admit your initial error, our conversation can last for years and years. And I will remind in each conversation the same point.

Henri K.

P.S. I see that you know at least copy an old post from 小飞猪 dated 2012 ? You see, you started to do some information research. Go ahead, you can nearly proof that your initial point is FALSE.


----------



## Tiqiu

hk299792458 said:


> Dont' divert and recognize your error in the original point which, I remind once again what you said to @Deino, which is FALSE :


What a pull shit ( you just used it in your post, so you should know the meaning)you are. I just said to you I will stick to "*But J-10B never used PESA; it used AESA from the day one." *

If you are so confident that I am wrong, then why don't you just man up for once and answer my question: did Mr.De say "*“We did develope PESA. For instance, J-10 is equipted with PESA.”? *Or is it true  *"Therefore, the only fighter that is equiped with PESA fire control radar ought to be J-10B" *

I am sure will be able to come up with other excuses not to answer again. Please surprise me just for once, would you?

I can see you really enjoy making empty threats again and again. I already gave you my answer to all your ultimatums.


hk299792458 said:


> But if you want to continue this game, be sure that I'll be here. For the time being I've a lot of time to lose.





hk299792458 said:


> But it's ok, if it is too hard for you to read those kind of thing, I can understand.





hk299792458 said:


> Don't worry, this game can last for years... Ready ?
> 
> Henri K.





hk299792458 said:


> Very pleased to continue with you, young boy of 40 years-old... At least I got a lot of fun.





hk299792458 said:


> Well, I didn't want to end you up that quick, as you bring me a lot of fun





hk299792458 said:


> Have a good night, and see you next time for another funny topic.





hk299792458 said:


> As far as you didn't admit your initial error, our conversation can last for years and years. And I will remind in each conversation the same point.
> 
> Henri K.





hk299792458 said:


> And, as far as you didn't admit your initial error, our conversation can last for years and years. And I will remind in each conversation the same point.
> 
> Henri K.




You claimed that you receive and read all those professional articles in Chinese language daily; you even wrote a long reply in Chinese to prove you have an excellent Chinese language skills, and perhaps in a way to offer truce(I maybe wrong but you did give me some friendly advice and asked me whether I am a developer) ; But I think you Chinese sucks. You accused me adding new words "for instance" to my original translation of the caption words on the image( I did not put it in my original translation because I did not think it would have a material effect). 


hk299792458 said:


> And I find you funny that you now try to protect yourself by adding a new word : "for instance".



Now tell me what did he say?







You and your fanboys are trying to portray some of us as a bunch of fanboys attacking you Chinese language skills when you point out the fact to us. But if you base all your arguments on the Chinese experts words in Chinses to against me, then of course I have to make sure you understand what is the true meaning of their sayings. Everybody lived in China knows government officials are very careful in using words - a different use of one particular word ( may have the same meaning in English) meaning very differently in some occasion - an delicate wording arts referred as eight part essay style八股文.

In this case Mr De did not say we *developed *PESA, he said we* did* PESA; he did not say J-10 is* equipped* with PESA, he said we *used to use* it on J-10. So if China studied those 2 PESA radars supplied by Russian and put it on J-10 for testing, He could say the exactly the same lines that "we did PESA, for instance J-10 used to use it"

So now you know why people like me challenging your Chinese language skills because you kept making silly statement about what Mr.De said that in fact he didn't say.


hk299792458 said:


> So, at least you admit the FACT that CETC had developped PESA ? So I accepted that you've recognized your initial error.



You can prove me wrong and make me admit my mistakes just by simply tell me when did he say we developed PESA, or just give me the bloody model name or images of this China-developed PESA.

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## j20blackdragon

J-10 prototype 1003 engine nozzle color has changed, and a metal support frame has been added to the rear fuselage around the nozzle. The aft tail boom structure even had to be lengthened to accommodate the metal support frame.










1004 garnered the most attention because it was re-engined to WS-10. But my question is not about 1004.






It is obvious these old prototypes are still being used for various testing purposes.

Questions:

1. Why did the engine nozzle color change on 1003?

2. What is the purpose of the metal support frame around the nozzle?

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## hk299792458

Tiqiu said:


> What a pull shit ( you just used it in your post, so you should know the meaning)you are. I just said to you I will stick to "*But J-10B never used PESA; it used AESA from the day one." *
> 
> If you are so confident that I am wrong, then why don't you just man up for once and answer my question: did Mr.De say "*“We did develope PESA. For instance, J-10 is equipted with PESA.”? *Or is it true  *"Therefore, the only fighter that is equiped with PESA fire control radar ought to be J-10B" *
> 
> I am sure will be able to come up with other excuses not to answer again. Please surprise me just for once, would you?
> 
> I can see you really enjoy making empty threats again and again. I already gave you my answer to all your ultimatums.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You claimed that you receive and read all those professional articles in Chinese language daily; you even wrote a long reply in Chinese to prove you have an excellent Chinese language skills, and perhaps in a way to offer truce(I maybe wrong but you did give me some friendly advice and asked me whether I am a developer) ; But I think you Chinese sucks. You accused me adding new words "for instance" to my original translation of the caption words on the image( I did not put it in my original translation because I did not think it would have a material effect).
> 
> 
> Now tell me what did he say?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You and your fanboys are trying to portray some of us as a bunch of fanboys attacking you Chinese language skills when you point out the fact to us. But if you base all your arguments on the Chinese experts words in Chinses to against me, then of course I have to make sure you understand what is the true meaning of their sayings. Everybody lived in China knows government officials are very careful in using words - a different use of one particular word ( may have the same meaning in English) meaning very differently in some occasion - an delicate wording arts referred as eight part essay style八股文.
> 
> In this case Mr De did not say we *developed *PESA, he said we* did* PESA; he did not say J-10 is* equipped* with PESA, he said we *used to use* it on J-10. So if China studied those 2 PESA radars supplied by Russian and put it on J-10 for testing, He could say the exactly the same lines that "we did PESA, for instance J-10 used to use it"
> 
> So now you know why people like me challenging your Chinese language skills because you kept making silly statement about what Mr.De said that in fact he didn't say.
> 
> 
> You can prove me wrong and make me admit my mistakes just by simply tell me when did he say we developed PESA, or just give me the bloody model name or images of this China-developed PESA.



I will provide you one element per week, and this can last for months and for years, untill you recognize your error in the original point which, I remind once again what you said to @Deino, which is FALSE :


Tiqiu said:


> *But J-10B never used PESA; it used AESA from the day one.*


















So, week 1, I will give you even a bonus with 2 elements. Guess what is written in these 2 documents from CETC 14th ?













Tiqiu said:


> You can prove me wrong and make me admit my mistakes just by simply tell me



No, I refused to do it simply. Since you started to speak in such a "funny way" to me and to 星海, you started this game with me. Just play it and enjoy till the end.

I promise you that this can last for very, very, very long time.

Henri K.


----------



## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> J-10 prototype 1003 engine nozzle color has changed, and a metal support frame has been added to the rear fuselage around the nozzle. The aft tail boom structure even had to be lengthened to accommodate the metal support frame.
> 
> 1004 garnered the most attention because it was re-engined to WS-10. But my question is not about 1004.
> 
> It is obvious these old prototypes are still being used for various testing purposes.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Why did the engine nozzle color change on 1003?
> 
> 2. What is the purpose of the metal support frame around the nozzle?




Again ... time of use and most of all these planes are no longer in use, these are old images !


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## 3jiL

Hi
I have 3 question 
Before asked 
Again asking 
Why j10C no MAW ? 
And
Have Chengdu j10 family any Israeli component ? 
And
B and C version's of j-10 how many improved range and specifications from A version ? 
Tnx  ) ) ) )


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## Tiqiu

hk299792458 said:


> I will provide you one element per week, and this can last for months and for years, untill you recognize your error in the original point which, I remind once again what you said to @Deino, which is FALSE :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, week 1, I will give you even a bonus with 2 elements. Guess what is written in these 2 documents from CETC 14th ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I refused to do it simply. Since you started to speak in such a "funny way" to me and to 星海, you started this game with me. Just play it and enjoy till the end.
> 
> I promise you that this can last for very, very, very long time.
> 
> Henri K.



Let's define "funny" first so that we can talk in a normal and professional manner in the future.

It is funny that on one hand you have been using a Chinese expert vague words on the commercial TV to refute me here, but on another hand you kept saying *"Even in the case that J-20 uses any WS-10 variant (today I don't believe a word on it)" *and* "In the case that J-20 uses AL-31FN like engine, that I still suppose today*" at J-20 thread yesterday, even the Chinese General and others were expressively stating the J-20 was equipped with the home- made engines on the only government TV channel CCTV.

It is funny after making these statements later challenged by me "这里说没有搞无源相控阵，指的是*机载预警雷达没搞无源相控阵，并非机载火控雷达没搞无源相控阵" "We did develope PESA. For instance, J-10 is equipted with PESA.”"Therefore, the only fighter that is equiped with PESA fire control radar ought to be J-10B"*,you are the only one here left doing defense.

It is funny when I told you China had got at least two models of PESA radars supplied by Russia from verifiable public record, you refrained your self from talking the possibilities that those two Russian PESA radars might be used on J-10 for testing, instead, you tried to prove you already knew it by this incorrect statement "P.S. I see that you know at least copy an old post from 小飞猪 dated 2012 ? You see, you started to do some information research. Go ahead, you can nearly proof that your initial point is FALSE."

It is funny you called me "copy an old post from 小飞猪 ", then what should people call you who lived on a daily bases writing something solely based on the copied images from Chinese websites and may be PDF here?

It is funny you are still relying on your scare campaign "I promise you that this can last for very, very, very long time" assuming only you could afford to do it whereas others can't due to time/financial situations, even i have proved you I can take on your challenge till now and perhaps till many many many years to come.

It is funny you tried to convince me you have an outstanding Chinese language skills and know more info or materials about China's military affairs, perhaps you have insider friends, but why couldn't you be able to answer the recent question about J-10B regiment raised by @Deino? I don't have insider friends but I know which/where/how many about it from open sources.

So if you want to talk normal, do so. If you want to play "game",do so.

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## hk299792458

Tiqiu said:


> If you want to play "game",do so.



So, let's play. And I can promise you a lot of fun in the coming years.

Let's start with the first point :



Tiqiu said:


> *But J-10B never used PESA; it used AESA from the day one.*



See ? We still come back to the starting point. Don't try to divert because you will discover week after week, step by step, that you're wrong since the begining.


























Did you enjoy the last two image ? I doubt if you know where they comme from, you that need to switch on the TV and "learn" funny things from CCTV-4 TV show.

Personally I would only advise CCTV-2 economic reports, CCTV-7 daily military news, CCTV-10 documentaries, and even JS7TV every day. But you know, it's up to you. I know exactly what kind of "sources" bring you to this stage.

Next week you will discover another element, the an another one the week after...etc...etc.

Henri K.


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## 帅的一匹

Ying Zhuo is a reliable source.

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## Tiqiu

hk299792458 said:


> So, let's play. And I can promise you a lot of fun in the coming years.
> 
> Let's start with the first point :
> 
> 
> 
> See ? We still come back to the starting point. Don't try to divert because you will discover week after week, step by step, that you're wrong since the begining.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you enjoy the last two image ? I doubt if you know where they comme from, you that need to switch on the TV and "learn" funny things from CCTV-4 TV show.
> 
> Personally I would only advise CCTV-2 economic reports, CCTV-7 daily military news, CCTV-10 documentaries, and even JS7TV every day. But you know, it's up to you. I know exactly what kind of "sources" bring you to this stage.
> 
> Next week you will discover another element, the an another one the week after...etc...etc.
> 
> Henri K.


OK, let me tell you again let's play. So don't act like an old woman or a 10-year-old boy repeating the same threat every time.

I ll tell you the 3rd time that *"But J-10B never used PESA; it used AESA from the day on".*

It was you who demonstrated to every body watching here that you are too timid to answer any of my question in every time.

I finally witnessed how phoney can one became. For instance:

You quoted an image of the nameplate "J-10B AESA radar" (behind it can be any those two Russian PESA radars like ZHUK-MSFE or NIIP PERO) from the meyet site which you disapproved


hk299792458 said:


> Meyet...
> 
> Henri K.



You fully relied on your argument on Mr.De's words but you did not give a jack to what Ying zhou said about J-20's Chinese engine.


hk299792458 said:


> Even in the case that J-20 uses any WS-10 variant (today I don't believe a word on it), it means you need at least 90 engines per year if you produce 72 aircraft. If today it is already not the case with all Shenyang produced aircrafts, what make us believe that on top of that they can produce 72 to 90 additional engines ?
> 
> In the case that J-20 uses AL-31FN like engine, that I still suppose today, one needs to have information on how many engines have been orderd, and how many left today.



You tried to impress me of your Chinese language skills by that long relay in Chinese(few purposely made mistakes therein made me feel that your Chinese mate wrote it for you), but you couldn't even get the simply baidu search right.


hk299792458 said:


> P.S. I see that you know at least copy an old post from 小飞猪 dated 2012 ?



I am starting to see the drive behind your desire to prolong this conversation as long as you can. This is a more effective advertising campaign for your site,isn't it?

Anyway, as I said before, if you enjoy, I enjoy it too. I am a fan of "Too much time on my hands"



wanglaokan said:


> Ying Zhuo is a reliable source.


But not to Henri K who is very selective.
That is why I said he is a pseudo journalist at best.

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## jkroo

Sigh, there's something comprehension error. What Tiqiu insists is so simple that he didn't denied the PESA has tetsted on J10 but J10C's AESA is not upgraded from J10B's PESA. What J10B equiped is AESA.

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## Tiqiu

jkroo said:


> Sigh, there's something comprehension error. What Tiqiu insists is so simple that he didn't denied the PESA has tetsted on J10 but J10C's AESA is not upgraded from J10B's PESA. What J10B equiped is AESA.


Thank you very much my friend. I think you would understand the frustration and disbelief I got when this guy tried to teach me how to interpret the short and vague sentences in Chinese in order to reconstruct the whole picture as accurate as it can be.

In short, in China any project involving the Govt needs the government approval to get enlisted status in the development plan(立项批准) based on the feasibility study and development proposal(论证和方案 )before going ahead or getting funds from the Government.( I maybe wrong since I left for nearly 30 yrs). Any individual or institute can do what every study or R&D they want, but without approval status, it is no development from the official point of view. That is why I asked him to provide the model name so we can track if it is enlisted or not.

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## Deino

*Maybe we can make arest of this discussion since it seemas as both of You won't persuade the other one !??*

Back to the topic ... first time an PL-10 spotted under an operational J-10AS. However that serial number makes no sense ???

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## Deino

Deino said:


> *...*Back to the topic ... first time an PL-10 spotted under an operational J-10AS. However that serial number makes no sense ???



Stupid me !!!  This appears to be an early design of the PL-10 or even a concurring design if You compare it with the current one which has different rear fins ...







... so it is a much older design and image and as such the serial makes sense again !! 

Deino


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## hk299792458

Tiqiu said:


> OK, let me tell you again let's play. So don't act like an old woman or a 10-year-old boy repeating the same threat every time.
> 
> I ll tell you the 3rd time that *"But J-10B never used PESA; it used AESA from the day on".*
> 
> It was you who demonstrated to every body watching here that you are too timid to answer any of my question in every time.
> 
> I finally witnessed how phoney can one became. For instance:
> 
> You quoted an image of the nameplate "J-10B AESA radar" (behind it can be any those two Russian PESA radars like ZHUK-MSFE or NIIP PERO) from the meyet site which you disapproved
> 
> 
> You fully relied on your argument on Mr.De's words but you did not give a jack to what Ying zhou said about J-20's Chinese engine.
> 
> 
> You tried to impress me of your Chinese language skills by that long relay in Chinese(few purposely made mistakes therein made me feel that your Chinese mate wrote it for you), but you couldn't even get the simply baidu search right.
> 
> 
> I am starting to see the drive behind your desire to prolong this conversation as long as you can. This is a more effective advertising campaign for your site,isn't it?
> 
> Anyway, as I said before, if you enjoy, I enjoy it too. I am a fan of "Too much time on my hands"
> 
> 
> But not to Henri K who is very selective.
> That is why I said he is a pseudo journalist at best.



Be patient, you will see one more element next week, and an another one the week after, and till the end you will find yourself how FALSE is what you pretended that :



> *But J-10B never used PESA; it used AESA from the day on*



I promised you a very very long game, a game throught which you will discover week after week, step by setp, your own error. Since the first time you managed your words in a silly way to me, you started the game. It's me who fixe the rule of the game now, not you.

I could, let's say, give you answer in 5 quotes, clearly showing that J-10B entered into service with PESA radar. But you know, French people says : "On va faire durer le plaisir".

By the way, you didn't tell me if you enjoy the first two elements I show you. If you don't understan now, don't worry, you will be a day.

See you next week on this topic.

Henri K.


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## Tiqiu

Deino said:


> Back to the topic ... first time an PL-10 spotted under an operational J-10AS. However that serial number makes no sense ???


It makes sense to me.



Deino said:


> Maybe we can make arest of this discussion since it seemas as both of You won't persuade the other one !??


I knew he could not be persuaded as soon as he refused to answer any of my questions and kept asking the same again and again. As the issue of PESA vs AESA is a very relevant point to J-10, also he dragged you into it by mentioning your name,so I will try for one more time to prove my point.

I said to you "But J-10B never used PESA;It used AESA from the day one" in our discussion about " is J-10C the result of AESA upgrading from the already- equipped PESA on J-10B?" So clearly were talking about whether J-10B is equipped with PESA or not, not about whether J-10B has tested PESA or not, do you agree?

To back my claim, I quote the interview from the Deputy chief designer of AWACS & researcher at China Electronic Technology Group Corporation published on <<Ordnance Knowledge>> 2012.1 addition:

目前世界上机载雷达普遍往有源相控阵方向发展，无论是预警机上的机载预警雷达还是战斗机上的机载火控雷达，都是这样，这两个领域是机载雷达最主要的领域。我国以机载预警雷达为突破口，实现了机载雷达装备从机械扫描到有源相控阵的跨越，没有搞无源相控阵，在世界上首次装备二维有源相控阵预警雷达，也就是说雷达波束在水平方向上和高度方向上都能电子扫描，由此也带动了战斗机火控雷达装备采用有源相控阵。

This is my translation, any Chinese member is welcomed to correct any error and I will be very appreciated.
"At present in the world, it has become a common trend that airborne radars are developed towards the direction of an Active Electronically Scanned Array, it is so either for airborne early warning radars, or for airborne fire control radars, both of which are the main field of airborne radars 。Using the development of airborne early warning radar as a breaking point, our country achieved the leap forward from mechanically-scanned to AESA for our airborne radar system, without developing PESA, became the first country in the world to equip a two-dimensional AESA for early waring & control, in other words the radar wave can scan horizontally and vertically, which drove the use of the AESA on fighter jets。"

This is how I paraphrased his words to derive my claim.
"At present in the world, it has become a common trend that airborne radars are developed towards the direction of an Active Electronically Scanned Array, it is so either for airborne early warning radars, or for airborne fire control radars, both of which are the main field of airborne radars 。*( Clearly he was talking about both airborne warning radars and airborne fire control radars)* Using the development of airborne early warning radar as a breaking point,* (Again he wouldn't need to mention it if he meant to talk about airborne warning radars alone)* our country achieved the leap forward from mechanically-scanned to AESA for our airborne radar system*(He didn't say for our airborne warning radars system; he said for airborne radars system - thus including airborne fire control radar)*, without developing PESA, became the first country in the world to equip a two-dimensional AESA for early waring & control,*( He did not mention fire control radars here either because at that time 5 yrs ago he was not at liberty to talk about it , or simply it was not the main topic of the interview)* in other words the radar wave can scan horizontally and vertically, which drove the use of the AESA on fighter jets。*(drove the use of the AESA on fighter jets means J-10 has by-passed PESA too)*

So can you tell me whether I don't know the difference between the two as so-claimed by this guy, or simply he lacks of comprehension skills about Chinese or English? Do you understand the reasons now why I have to make sure he understands fully about the meaning of the particular sentences in Chinese if he uses them to debate with me?


hk299792458 said:


> Learn first there is a huge difference between AWACS radar (that you quoted) and fire control radar (that's the topic here). Once you can't understand this point, all other arguments you could say are pull shit.





hk299792458 said:


> Be patient, you will see one more element next week, and an another one the week after, and till the end you will find yourself how FALSE is what you pretended that :
> 
> 
> 
> I promised you a very very long game, a game throught which you will discover week after week, step by setp, your own error. Since the first time you managed your words in a silly way to me, you started the game. It's me who fixe the rule of the game now, not you.
> 
> I could, let's say, give you answer in 5 quotes, clearly showing that J-10B entered into service with PESA radar. But you know, French people says : "On va faire durer le plaisir".
> 
> By the way, you didn't tell me if you enjoy the first two elements I show you. If you don't understan now, don't worry, you will be a day.
> 
> See you next week on this topic.
> 
> Henri K.


I am very patient about time, but not so much about you have to warn me again,again and again.

I will tell you the forth time that I stick to *"But J-10B never used PESA;It used AESA from the day one".* Even you took my words out of context from the environment of the particular discussion, you still haven't to prove me wrong.

I will admit my mistakes, which is not a big deal for anybody,when the time comes. But before than you need to be patient.

I think It is you who may have a problem to face you mistakes. Do you want me to dig more into it?

You have complained @Deino was "soft" on people like me. I agreed he might be "soft". For instance, did you ask his permission or other mods like @waz to promote/advertise your site here? You gave the link of your site at least 20 times in various threads to procure audience. It is not my business about how the PDF is running, but it is my business not to waste my time. When people go there all they read are in French, all they see are pictures that if can't be founded from the Chinese sites first, can be found at PDF here.

BTW, next time if you want to give me some your famous French idiom, give me in English for I am not the only one here who has no desire to learn your French.

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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> It makes sense to me.
> 
> ....




For me now too ! It is the old serial system - I think pre 2009 ??! - for the FTTC unit, that is now the 170. Brigade.

Here's another J-10AS from the same unit from about







Or what's Your explanation ?!


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## Tiqiu

Deino said:


> For me now too ! It is the old serial system - I think pre 2009 ??! - for the FTTC unit, that is now the 170. Brigade.
> 
> Here's another J-10AS from the same unit from about
> 
> View attachment 361678
> 
> 
> Or what's Your explanation ?!


I remembered you said yourself that 170 has eight J-10S or something like that. It makes sense because FTTC is always the first above all to receive J-10

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## grey boy 2

J-10B showcasing supermaneuverability (大秀机动性！中国歼10B战机横滚爬升连续镜头)

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## Deino

So much on some strange and stupid claims, the J-10B is not operational and will never do so ! ... these are from 2014.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/811195398509334528


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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/811219989868855296

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## Deino

This seems to confirm the 21. Division also as a J-10B unit:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/811200805596319745

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/811236596796235776
If I'm not very much off, these serials look like 30x2x !

Deino

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## Tiqiu

JKHKBD21S

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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> JKHKBD21S
> View attachment 361977




But these J-8DH/H/Fs are from the 62nd Air Regiment at Qiqihar, the J-10B unit is the 61st AR; however 21st Division is correct.

Deino


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## Tiqiu

Deino said:


> But these J-8DH/H/Fs are from the 62nd Air Regiment at Qiqihar, the J-10B unit is the 61st AR; however 21st Division is correct.
> 
> Deino


The US (Korean) satellites can pick up any models of jets on the airfields, so these is no "secret" for them at all. Any government release with clear serials is meant to convey a message to the people like us.

Each delivery batch is 6 according to the norm.

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## 帅的一匹

http://share.iclient.ifeng.com/sharenews.f?forward=1&aid=cmpp_030100050450763

Score a 10:0 defeat with the mock air combat with J20, it's the best fighter in our heart once but not in the reality anymore.

One shall never deny J10b is one of the most elegant fourth gen fighter of its category.

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## grey boy 2

CCTV7:J-10B (图解军事纪实1220公开报道歼10B部队)

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## grey boy 2

CCTV7:J-10B (图解军事纪实1220公开报道歼10B部队)

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## grey boy 2

CCTV7:J-10B (图解军事纪实1220公开报道歼10B部队)

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## grey boy 2

CCTV7:J-10B (图解军事纪实1220公开报道歼10B部队)

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## barbarosa

I


grey boy 2 said:


> CCTV7:J-10B (图解军事纪实1220公开报道歼10B部队)


 I acknowledge it's dignity.


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## Tiqiu

grey boy 2 said:


> CCTV7:J-10B (图解军事纪实1220公开报道歼10B部队)


It is just the Chinese why to tell normal people in South Koren (the professionals knew it long time ago) that If you put THAAD near us, we will put J-10B near you.

I think this may be the place...

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## Deino



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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> View attachment 363346


loooks like a duck :-\ or rc plane


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## j20blackdragon

Notice these characteristics in the AL-31FN.

Double layer arrangement of the petals.





Gaps and spacing between the petals.





All missing in the pictures below.

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## Deino

Oh no... Not again.

So what's your point ??? Another secret Ws-24??? ... Or simply a too blurred image?

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## j20blackdragon

Deino said:


> Oh no... Not again.
> 
> So what's your point ??? Another secret Ws-24??? ... Or simply a too blurred image?



At least 53 J-10B and 50 J-10C have been produced. Where is the follow-up order for the AL-31FN Series 3? What about the hundreds of older J-10 that have been in production since 2002? They don't need replacement engines after over a decade?

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## Malik Alashter

Deino said:


> Oh no... Not again.


really funny  but why not they have money so yes they can do it.

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## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> At least 53 J-10B and 50 J-10C have been produced. Where is the follow-up order for the AL-31FN Series 3? What about the hundreds of older J-10 that have been in production since 2002? They don't need replacement engines after over a decade?




Again .. What do you want to prove?


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## j20blackdragon

Deino said:


> Again .. What do you want to prove?



Let me list out the total verifiable AL-31FN purchases.

2002-2004: 54 AL-31FN

2005: 100 AL-31FN

2007: 100 AL-31FN

2009: 122 AL-31FN

2011: 123 AL-31FN Series 3

499 total engines.

Even if I use very conservative estimates, at least 430+ J-10 have been produced so far since 2002.

That is not enough engines for the total aircraft.

Spare engines are needed for bird-strike, FOD, and other types of engine failures.

Older aircraft will require engine replacement after a certain number of flight hours. You can't overhaul the same engine forever.

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## Deino

Still no answer ! So what do you want to assume ??? Reall a secret WS-27 or what should that be per your idea?


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Still no answer ! So what do you want to assume ??? Reall a secret WS-27 or what should that be per your idea?


J-10C used WS-10x domestic made high thrust engine instead of many assume AL-31FN russian engine. Mine assumption of J-10C enter service with high thrust domestic engine is correct.

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## Tiqiu

Beast said:


> J-10C used WS-10x domestic made high thrust engine instead of many assume AL-31FN russian engine. Mine assumption of J-10C enter service with high thrust domestic engine is correct.


The recent interview of_李应红_, 空军“飞机推进技术”高新技术中心主任-Director of PLA Air Force aircraft propulsion technology center, on the <<Ordnance Knowledge>>201612 editon confirmed that the latest J-10 modified model were quipped with WS-10s.











_李应红



_

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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> The recent interview of_李应红_, 空军“飞机推进技术”高新技术中心主任-Director of PLA Air Force aircraft propulsion technology center, on the <<Ordnance Knowledge>>201612 editon confirmed that the latest J-10 modified model were quipped with WS-10s.
> 
> View attachment 363510
> 
> 
> View attachment 363511
> 
> 
> _李应红
> View attachment 363512
> _




Buta again. This image you used show thal last two batch 01 aircrafts, none of any operational j-10 uses so far a WS-10 ... Snd you are mixing again J-10A, AY and B all with AL-31 nozzles.

And that engine image in that Chinese report is also an AL-31 - even worse an AL-31F with the gear box on top - ... So you really pretend these are WS-10 ???


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## 3jiL

- Why batch 2 of j-10B(or C) no have MAW, May batch 2 built for PLANAF or cheaper version of B Verizon? 
- Is 1035 prototype that use WS-10, crashed ?


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## j20blackdragon

Deino said:


> Still no answer ! So what do you want to assume ??? Reall a secret WS-27 or what should that be per your idea?



I want to do some flight hours and engine life math with you.

PLAAF Su-27SK received 250 flight hours per year.
http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2009/04/decommission-of-plaafs-su-27-has.html

First contract for a batch of 24 Su-27 was signed on June 14, 1990. The original Su-27 airframe had a service life of 5000 hours. It was decommission in 2009 after 19 years of service.

5000 hours / 19 years = 263 hours per year.

I'm willing to round this down to 250 hours per year for easy calculation.

Two pilots were assigned to each aircraft, which means each pilot received 125 hours per year. But the airframe and engines received 250 hours per year. Keep in mind these hours were achieved throughout the 1990s and early 2000s when China was a much poorer country.

AL-31FN Series 3 TBO is 750 hours according to Salut.
http://www.salut.ru/ViewTopic.php?Id=2325

That means the older AL-31FN was less than that. I'm willing to be generous and give the older AL-31FN a TBO of 500 hours and service life of 1500 hours, but it could be less. The entire 1500 hour service life is used up in 6 years assuming 250 flight hours a year.

According to huitong, around 100 J-10 were produced by 2006.

*Around 100 may have been produced by 2006 (01-03 batch, S/N 50x5x, 10x4x, 10x3x, 10x2x, 20x0x, 73x5x).*
http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/fighters-ii.html

The aircraft above are over a decade old. All J-10s older than 6 years are likely to have received at least one engine replacement already.

Do you understand why I say 499 engines isn't enough? Can anyone prove China purchased more than 499 AL-31FN from Russia? Give me proof.

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## DJ_Viper

Deino said:


> View attachment 363346



Did they reduce the delta wing span? I see a lot of composites and strengthening materials within the wing structure, potentially to reduce the RCS yet carry heavier loads (by that I assume fuel to extend the range)?


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## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> ...
> The aircraft above are over a decade old. All J-10s older than 6 years are likely to have received at least one engine replacement already.
> 
> Do you understand why I say 499 engines isn't enough? Can anyone prove China purchased more than 499 AL-31FN from Russia? Give me proof.




A plain and simple answer is not possible ? Isn't it ??

I agree with You in terms of the number of engines available and me too does not have an answer, but that still does not make an engine that looks like an AL-31F suddenly a magical, mystical AL-31FN-look-alike WS-10 ?!

Just plain and simple again, what engine do You think is this ?

Deino


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## j20blackdragon

j20blackdragon said:


> I want to do some flight hours and engine life math with you.
> 
> PLAAF Su-27SK received 250 flight hours per year.
> http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2009/04/decommission-of-plaafs-su-27-has.html
> 
> First contract for a batch of 24 Su-27 was signed on June 14, 1990. The original Su-27 airframe had a service life of 5000 hours. It was decommission in 2009 after 19 years of service.
> 
> 5000 hours / 19 years = 263 hours per year.
> 
> I'm willing to round this down to 250 hours per year for easy calculation.
> 
> Two pilots were assigned to each aircraft, which means each pilot received 125 hours per year. But the airframe and engines received 250 hours per year. Keep in mind these hours were achieved throughout the 1990s and early 2000s when China was a much poorer country.
> 
> AL-31FN Series 3 TBO is 750 hours according to Salut.
> http://www.salut.ru/ViewTopic.php?Id=2325
> 
> That means the older AL-31FN was less than that. I'm willing to be generous and give the older AL-31FN a TBO of 500 hours and service life of 1500 hours, but it could be less. The entire 1500 hour service life is used up in 6 years assuming 250 flight hours a year.
> 
> According to huitong, around 100 J-10 were produced by 2006.
> 
> *Around 100 may have been produced by 2006 (01-03 batch, S/N 50x5x, 10x4x, 10x3x, 10x2x, 20x0x, 73x5x).*
> http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/fighters-ii.html
> 
> The aircraft above are over a decade old. All J-10s older than 6 years are likely to have received at least one engine replacement already.
> 
> Do you understand why I say 499 engines isn't enough? Can anyone prove China purchased more than 499 AL-31FN from Russia? Give me proof.



I just found confirmation from Salut that the AL-31FN Series 3 has 250 hour TBO extension over the original engine.

http://www.salut.ru/ViewTopic.php?Id=2189

My estimate of 500 hour TBO and 1500 hour service life for the old AL-31FN is probably pretty close to the truth.

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## Deino

J-10A + K/JDC01A targeting pod + LS-500J LGB

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## Deino



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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> View attachment 364235


tbh it looks likr rc plane...btw will we get to see the fc31 test vidEO


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> tbh it looks likr rc plane...btw will we get to see the fc31 test vidEO



... when will we get any better, clearer, larger V2 images ???

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## cirr

About J-10D:

(Drastic?)changes in exterior
More stealthy
Longer range
More advanced avionics, radars etc

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## Beast

cirr said:


> About J-10D:
> 
> (Drastic?)changes in exterior
> More stealthy
> Longer range
> More advanced avionics, radars etc


Longer range that means it must have CFT and more powerful engine.

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## cirr

1st J-10C seen with PLAAF tactical code number(concealed)

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## Deino

Thanks a lot again ! 



cirr said:


> About J-10D:
> 
> (Drastic?)changes in exterior
> More stealthy
> Longer range
> More advanced avionics, radars etc



And any guess when we will see it for the first time??



cirr said:


> 1st J-10C seen with PLAAF tactical code number(concealed)
> 
> View attachment 364433




Looks very much like a '5xx5x'-serial - so the 44. Division as rumoured since some time.


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## MystryMan

cirr said:


> About J-10D:
> 
> (Drastic?)changes in exterior
> More stealthy
> Longer range
> More advanced avionics, radars etc


Good news sir!. 
When is the first prototype expected to b available?


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## grey boy 2

J-10C













J-10B with PL-12

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## Deino



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## grey boy 2

J-10B (红色“眼罩”亮瞎眼！北部战区已列装大批歼10B)

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## 帅的一匹

What an elegant beauty J10b is! The manufacturing ability of CAC is marvelous!

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## TaimiKhan

Guys, whats the major difference between J-10B & J-10C ??


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## AlyxMS

TaimiKhan said:


> Guys, whats the major difference between J-10B & J-10C ??


Radar, the radar on J-10B is a PESA.

This is the public consensus, but if you go back a few pages there's this one particular person who does not agree.

Also a piece of (EW?) equipment located on the tail that is on J-10B is not present on J-10C.

Other than that and they are nearly indentical from the outside. I'm not sure about this one but the arrangement of antennas are different between the two.

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## Deino

TaimiKhan said:


> Guys, whats the major difference between J-10B & J-10C ??



Hu ... besides the question "what engine does the J-20 uses" the probably most often asked question here !

Most of all the c uses an AESA + more refined, more capable avionics whereas - and here I do not want to re-open that discussion - B used at least in the beginnings a PESA.

Both are however still using the AL-31FN series 3.

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## TaimiKhan

Deino said:


> Hu ... besides the question "what engine does the J-20 uses" the probably most often asked question here !
> 
> Most of all the c uses an AESA + more refined, more capable avionics whereas - and here I do not want to re-open that discussion - B used at least in the beginnings a PESA.
> 
> Both are however still using the AL-31FN series 3.
> 
> View attachment 365261
> View attachment 365262



These are just slight variations, don't understand why giving it a totally new designation as it brings confusion.



Deino said:


> Hu ... besides the question "what engine does the J-20 uses" the probably most often asked question here !
> 
> Most of all the c uses an AESA + more refined, more capable avionics whereas - and here I do not want to re-open that discussion - B used at least in the beginnings a PESA.
> 
> Both are however still using the AL-31FN series 3.
> 
> View attachment 365261
> View attachment 365262



hahahahahhahahaa, don't worry as i have no issues with engines as I know if not today, tomorrow the Chinese will have their own engines and this one bottleneck in their aviation industry will be solved. 

With the strides the Chinese aviation industry has taken in last 1 decade, is itself awesome and commendable. 

But the difference you pointed out and other member who clarified are not that big that proper designations are changed or are these B & C designations by non-official aviation enthusiasts ??

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## MystryMan

Now we also have J-10D as per @cirr



cirr said:


> About J-10D:
> 
> (Drastic?)changes in exterior
> More stealthy
> Longer range
> More advanced avionics, radars etc





TaimiKhan said:


> These are just slight variations, don't understand why giving it a totally new designation as it brings confusion.
> 
> 
> 
> hahahahahhahahaa, don't worry as i have no issues with engines as I know if not today, tomorrow the Chinese will have their own engines and this one bottleneck in their aviation industry will be solved.
> 
> With the strides the Chinese aviation industry has taken in last 1 decade, is itself awesome and commendable.
> 
> But the difference you pointed out and other member who clarified are not that big that proper designations are changed or are these B & C designations by non-official aviation enthusiasts ??


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## Deino

TaimiKhan said:


> These are just slight variations, don't understand why giving it a totally new designation as it brings confusion.



Indeed and even more the fact that no new construction umbers were allocated - all Batch 01 are J-10B and all Batch 02 are J-10C - let me have some minor doubts. However the general consensus seems to be that it is simply that way.

Concerning the J-10D ... I'm really eager to learn more. Maybe a twin-seater J-10C + CFTs ???

Hopefully soon this year.

Deino

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## grey boy 2

J-10S with PL-10 (伟大祖国展翅高飞！中国歼10S曝挂霹雳10导弹)

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## aziqbal

Omg J10D??? 

Are you kiddin me 

So 53 x J10B and 55 x J10C identified so far ?


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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Indeed and even more the fact that no new construction umbers were allocated - all Batch 01 are J-10B and all Batch 02 are J-10C - let me have some minor doubts. However the general consensus seems to be that it is simply that way.
> 
> Concerning the J-10D ... I'm really eager to learn more. Maybe a twin-seater J-10C + CFTs ???
> 
> Hopefully soon this year.
> 
> Deino


off topic , could you explain me how to determine the weight class (heavy,medium,light) of jet with given specification...i there any relation with power of engine or MTOW ??

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## cirr

Deino said:


> Indeed and even more the fact that no new construction umbers were allocated - all Batch 01 are J-10B and all Batch 02 are J-10C - let me have some minor doubts. However the general consensus seems to be that it is simply that way.
> 
> Concerning the J-10D ... I'm really eager to learn more. Maybe a twin-seater J-10C + CFTs ???
> 
> Hopefully soon this year.
> 
> Deino



How about EOTS/EODAS for starters?

Employment of plasma technology for enhanced stealthness is another Possibility.(Note the capital letter) 

The rumour mill has gone into overdrive.

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## Akasa

cirr said:


> How about EOTS/EODAS for starters?
> 
> Employment of plasma technology for enhanced stealthness is another Possibility.(Note the capital letter)
> 
> The rumour mill has gone into overdrive.



Expected time frame for rollout? How close is it to prototype stage?

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## j20blackdragon

cirr said:


> About J-10D:
> (Drastic?)changes in exterior
> More stealthy
> Longer range
> More advanced avionics, radars etc





cirr said:


> How about EOTS/EODAS for starters?
> 
> Employment of plasma technology for enhanced stealthness is another Possibility.(Note the capital letter)
> 
> The rumour mill has gone into overdrive.



A J-10D with stealth shaping and internal bays would be an incredible stealth aircraft.

Compare the frontal cross section of the F-35 with the J-10B.









The F-35 is fat and wide. The J-10B is slim.
Both have DSI. But the F-35 has two inlets compared to one on the J-10B.

Another possibility is that the J-10D turns out to be this.





The J-20 doesn't have a gun port probably because it's not optimized to be a dogfighter. If that is the case, a smaller, single-engine stealth fighter would make sense.


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## Pepsi Cola

j20blackdragon said:


> A J-10D with stealth shaping and internal bays would be an incredible stealth aircraft.
> 
> Compare the frontal cross section of the F-35 with the J-10B.
> View attachment 366290
> 
> View attachment 366291
> 
> 
> The F-35 is fat and wide. The J-10B is slim.
> Both have DSI. But the F-35 has two inlets compared to one on the J-10B.
> 
> Another possibility is that the J-10D turns out to be this.
> View attachment 366292
> 
> 
> The J-20 doesn't have a gun port probably because it's not optimized to be a dogfighter. If that is the case, a smaller, single-engine stealth fighter would make sense.


highly unlikely considering many efforts from Americans and Russians to build a froward swept wings fighter, but still opted for a conventional swept wing in the end. Maybe China will build a demonstrator, but don't think it will get a production run.


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## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> A J-10D with stealth shaping and internal bays would be an incredible stealth aircraft.
> ...
> Both have DSI. But the F-35 has two inlets compared to one on the J-10B.
> 
> Another possibility is that the J-10D turns out to be this.
> ....




Never ! What You are proposing would be a new aircraft with a completely new structure. It would be as ridiculous as these wet-dreams by some Pakistani fan boys to simply "enlarge" the JF-17 by adding a second RD-93 or also a WS-10.

If the J-10D comes out it will surely be some sort of evolution, but surely not that revolution You suggested.

Deino

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## Pepsi Cola

Deino said:


> Never ! What You are proposing would be a new aircraft with a completely new structure. It would be as ridiculous as these wet-dreams by some Pakistani fan boys to simply "enlarge" the JF-17 by adding a second RD-93 or also a WS-10.
> 
> If the J-10D comes out it will surely be some sort of evolution, but surely not that revolution You suggested.
> 
> Deino


If that thing comes out it would be named J-11 or something. J-10D would retain most of its original structure that's for sure.


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## Deino

Okarus said:


> If that thing comes out it would be named J-11 or something. J-10D would retain most of its original structure that's for sure.




Surely not J-11 ... but why developing another J-10-based design with massive changes if already a new single-engine type is already under development at CAC (at least reportedly) ?


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## Pepsi Cola

Deino said:


> Surely not J-11 ... but why developing another J-10-based design with massive changes if already a new single-engine type is already under development at CAC (at least reportedly) ?



I don't think there will be "massive changes" to J-10D. Personally, I'd already be impressed if EOTS is added to it. As for the development of the forward swept stealth aircraft, I really don't think it will see the light of day. At best AVIC will build a demonstrated based on that design and study its flight characteristics. But who knows? AVIC isn't the type of company to show something it's not at least a bit confident of.

Oh btw what I meant by "that thing" in my previous post is the front swept wings model.


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## Deino

Simply so nice ....

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## grey boy 2

J-10B

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## grey boy 2

J-10B air refueling in tough snowy environment 
在几千米高空进行加油，飞行员驾驶的战机要和加油机保持高度一致，在短短几分钟内完成“接吻”，这实现起来绝非易事。解放军飞行员在大雪中坚持模拟训练，成功驾驶歼10B战机进行空中加油。（来源：军事纪实）

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## grey boy 2

Reliable source from pupu, J-10D the silent version(stealth feature) special made for F-35 will show up soon( 据pupu微博透露，j10d用来抗衡f35，不沉默显然这抗衡f35是无从谈起的，既然靠谱的pupu爷说的，又是靠谱的南边，1.11应该就是它了，沉默的棍子。)

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## The Eagle

grey boy 2 said:


> Reliable source from pupu, J-10D the silent version(stealth feature) special made for F-35 will show up soon( 据pupu微博透露，j10d用来抗衡f35，不沉默显然这抗衡f35是无从谈起的，既然靠谱的pupu爷说的，又是靠谱的南边，1.11应该就是它了，沉默的棍子。)




How credible this source is, except China wanted to leak a bit deliberately.

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## grey boy 2

The Eagle said:


> How credible this source is, except China wanted to leak a bit deliberately.


PUPU is one of the most reliable source regarding Chinese military, has plenty of respect from Chinese military fans for years

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## The Eagle

grey boy 2 said:


> PUPU is one of the most reliable source regarding Chinese military, has plenty of respect from Chinese military fans for years



Okay as you would know better however, by going through such information one can assume that J-10D is ready to show up soon means it is already done by its design/manufacturing phase and we will be seeing test flight/appearance of the same. Hope to see very soon....

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## Deino

Uiii ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/819504680829009922
Interesting ! In the Centre Theatre Command is so far no J-10B unit known. Any info where ?

Deino

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## grey boy 2

Formation of 7 J-10A (七架歼10A战机密集编队挂弹飞行)

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## MystryMan

grey boy 2 said:


> Reliable source from pupu, J-10D the silent version(stealth feature) special made for F-35 will show up soon( 据pupu微博透露，j10d用来抗衡f35，不沉默显然这抗衡f35是无从谈起的，既然靠谱的pupu爷说的，又是靠谱的南边，1.11应该就是它了，沉默的棍子。)


I really want PAF to go for D version of J-10 if its capabilities match the claims. @MastanKhan

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## 帅的一匹

MystryMan said:


> I really want PAF to go for D version of J-10 if its capabilities match the claims. @MastanKhan


Maybe J10D is sexy, but FC31 is more attractive.


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## MystryMan

wanglaokan said:


> Maybe J10D is sexy, but FC31 is more attractive.


Sir, I actually meant as a 4.5+G strike supplemnting 5G, not in its place. The comment was in relation to PAF looking for 4.5+ aircraft ( SU35, EFT etc).


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## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> Reliable source from pupu, J-10D the silent version(stealth feature) special made for F-35 will show up soon( 据pupu微博透露，j10d用来抗衡f35，不沉默显然这抗衡f35是无从谈起的，既然靠谱的pupu爷说的，又是靠谱的南边，1.11应该就是它了，沉默的棍子。)



Where did you read that the J-10D will incorporate RCS-optimizing features? Did you infer it or did "pupu" actually mention it?


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## grey boy 2

SinoSoldier said:


> Where did you read that the J-10D will incorporate RCS-optimizing features? Did you infer it or did "pupu" actually mention it?



Learn some Chinese, so that you could get the answer in my post
And you claimed you're Chinese LOL

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## Akasa

grey boy 2 said:


> Learn some Chinese, so that you could get the answer in my post
> And you claimed you're Chinese LOL



Which is exactly why I posed this question. Your claim seems to be based more on inference than actual rumors.


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## grey boy 2

SinoSoldier said:


> Which is exactly why I posed this question. Your claim seems to be based more on inference than actual rumors.


How about telling me what it said and i will show you where i got that information from?

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## Deino

Deino said:


> Uiii ...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/819504680829009922
> Interesting ! In the Centre Theatre Command is so far no J-10B unit known. Any info where ?
> 
> Deino




No-one with any more information ??


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## AlyxMS

grey boy 2 said:


> Learn some Chinese, so that you could get the answer in my post
> And you claimed you're Chinese LOL



"Learn some Chinese" is just a lazy answer, and a irresponsible answer in this case.

As the image you posted only implies "we will see J-10D soon" and nothing else.

If you don't want to bother translating, at least post the source so some other people can do it.


----------



## grey boy 2

AlyxMS said:


> "Learn some Chinese" is just a lazy answer, and a irresponsible answer in this case.
> 
> As the image you posted only implies "we will see J-10D soon" and nothing else.
> 
> If you don't want to bother translating, at least post the source so some other people can do it.


Yup, you're right





edit: No personel rants please !

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## AlyxMS

grey boy 2 said:


> Yup, you're right
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, i've no obligation to reply to a Chinese basher faker period



This is more like it.
But it's still from a person quoting Pupu saying "J-10D would be used against F-35". But this rumor is pretty widespread across CJDBY, I'd take that people have actually checked pupu's weibo. But "J-10D = silent J-10" is still just a logical thought from "J-10D will be used against F-35", not a direct quote.

Also,
Sinosoldier is definitely not "Chinese faker", although the Sino part in his user ID may suggest Chinese, his profile/flag is quite clear that he's not.

And he's also no "China basher". Infact he's completely different at another forum. And if you frequent this forum, you know what he's like before. I guess he just got caught in this recent shitstorm against "western china bashers" by some aggressive members here and decided to switch on troll mode. As indicated by switching his profile pic to an Indian flag painted plane.

@SinoSoldier, sorry about talking about you as if you can't see this. I'm sure being thought of as a "China faker basher" is quite enjoyable for you in your trolling mode, but people need to know so this senseless shitstorm can stop.



liquidsolid said:


> Chinese is not worth learning


Every language is.
Especially one spoken by 1 billion people.
If you got nothing constructive to say, save it.

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## ahojunk

*J-10A fighter jets in flight training*
2017-01-13 13:38 | China Military Online | Editor:Xu Shanshan





Two J-10A fighter jets assigned to an aviation regiment of the air force under the PLA Southern Theater Command taxi on the runway before taking off on a military airfield during a flight training exercise at an undisclosed area in southwest China’s Yunnan Province on Jan. 10, 2017. (81.cn/ Wei Jinxin)






A J-10A fighter jet assigned to an aviation regiment of the air force under the PLA Southern Theater Command taxies on the runway before taking off on a military airfield during a flight training exercise at an undisclosed area in southwest China’s Yunnan Province on Jan. 10, 2017. (81.cn/ Wei Jinxin)






Two maintenance technicians assigned to an aviation regiment of the air force under the PLA Southern Theater Command perform pre-flight check on a J-10A fighter jet prior to a flight training exercise at an undisclosed area in southwest China’s Yunnan Province on Jan. 10, 2017. (81.cn/ Wei Jinxin)






A pilot assigned to an aviation regiment of the air force under the PLA Southern Theater Command sits in the cockpit of his J-10A fighter jet prior to a flight training exercise at an undisclosed area in southwest China’s Yunnan Province on Jan. 10, 2017. (81.cn/ Wei Jinxin)






A J-10A fighter jet assigned to an aviation regiment of the air force under the PLA Southern Theater Command taxies on the runway before taking off on a military airfield during a flight training exercise at an undisclosed area in southwest China’s Yunnan Province on Jan. 10, 2017. (81.cn/ Wei Jinxin)






A J-10A fighter jet assigned to an aviation regiment of the air force under the PLA Southern Theater Command taxies on the runway before taking off on a military airfield during a flight training exercise at an undisclosed area in southwest China’s Yunnan Province on Jan. 10, 2017. (81.cn/ Wei Jinxin)






A J-10A fighter jet assigned to an aviation regiment of the air force under the PLA Southern Theater Command deploys a drogue parachute to slow itself after landing during a flight training exercise at an undisclosed area in southwest China’s Yunnan Province on Jan. 10, 2017. (81.cn/ Wei Jinxin)

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## grey boy 2

J-10C with 3 external fuel tanks 
(日前，网友上传了疑似歼10C战斗机新照片，显示其强大挂载与远航能力。照片中，疑似歼10C战机挂载了3个副油箱与2枚导弹。图片鸣谢：@机外停车)

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## Deino

That's a J-10B ... Just look at the RWR on the tail.


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## cirr

J-10C + PL-10

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## Deino

J-10B + KG600 ECM

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## grey boy 2



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## Han Patriot

grey boy 2 said:


>


Those don't look like AL-31 to me.


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## 帅的一匹

Han Patriot said:


> Those don't look like AL-31 to me.


It is al31FN. It just looks like WS10 from behind.

Does it mean J10b/c will never fit domestic engine? That's quite a regret.


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## 帅的一匹

人家看得上的不能卖，能卖的人家又看不上。窝囊死了！


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## Deino

*Guys ... in English please or at least add a translation !*

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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> 翼根带的是陆攻弹还是副油箱？can J10 carry ALCM or tactical nuclear missile?进气道两侧下方是否能像幻影2000一样携带两发近程空空导弹？总感觉十的挂载设计的一逼啊！人家小巴情愿要二手幻影2000-9也不要歼10。都没意思了，还吹个啥玩意！到现在Ws10都没装机，黄花菜都凉了。从此以后就他妈别吹了，省的丢人现眼！
> 
> 还他妈天天吹三姨夫900小时发动机再制造延寿到1500小时，这说明我们的发动机可靠性连900小时的垃圾货都不如啊！从今以后谁他妈再吹我就怼谁！


歼十C版的发动机是涡扇十发动机。东西不能看外表。要看原理。
歼十是中国王牌之一。不会随便卖出去。

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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> 歼十C版的发动机是涡扇十发动机。东西不能看外表。要看原理。
> 歼十是中国王牌之一。不会随便卖出去。


Feel lot more comfortable now!

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## Deino

Come on guys !


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## The Eagle

wanglaokan said:


> Feel lot more comfortable now!



Jian Shi C version of the engine

What are these details like which engine are we talking here rather than J-10C


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## 帅的一匹

The Eagle said:


> Jian Shi C version of the engine
> 
> What are these details like which engine are we talking here rather than J-10C


Fellow Chinese said the J10c use WS10x engine with Al31FN nozzle. I don't know.....

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## Asoka

grey boy 2 said:


> New ultra-high performance concrete hangars with compression strength up to 400 MPa. (终于告别大凉棚了)



They should coat the hangars with Polyurea. This thing has an amazing ability against blast impact.

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## 帅的一匹

Asok said:


> They should coat the hangars with Polyurea. This thing has an amazing ability against blast impact.


Maybe no enough budget.

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## Asoka

Beast said:


> Many of his conclusions are incomplete just like sinosoldier as both of them cannot read Chinese and have no idea the full development. Their assessment is based on English source and mere simple English translation by others. Some Chinese interview are lengthy and nobody will bother to give a full translation for these foreign gentlemen. There are some Chinese verse which others may deem insignificant but contain critical meaning and insight. Just like the recent interview of J-20 chief designer yang wei. Nobody talks about that particular sentence mention by yang wei until recently raise up by me, he say " J-20 flight demonstrations, demonstrated something visible to audiences and yet also demonstrated something not visible to others too! " This sentence contains a lot of meaning and very important to understand the real capabilities and development of J-20. Only a real Chinese can decipher what he actually trying to tell you. And they are simply too many critical videos and interview both never see or miss which can give real insightful into Chinese military development. And they are not bogus source but direct interview with chief designer of the weapons or high ranking PLA personnel which involves in the decision making of the induction of the weapon.
> 
> I am sure Henri. K can give better assessment compare to the 2 others.



*" J-20 flight demonstrations, demonstrated something visible to audiences and yet also demonstrated something not visible to others too! "*

You will able to see it when you are ready and willing to see it, until then, someone can explain what it is to see till the end of time, and you won't able and willing to see it.

I have tried to explain many times that "Sustain Vertical Climbing requires T/W > 1, and if AB is not used, then its Dry Thrust alone is > Weight, and from that, we can calculate the approximate Total Thrust using the estimate that Dry Thrust is ~ 60% of Wet Thrust."

Yet very few are able or willing to see that is true. Perhaps the result is too startling to them. The idea that J-20 is "underpowered" or is using WS-10X or AL-31FN, got burned into their heads. Chinese PDF members are no exception to this conditioning.



wanglaokan said:


> Maybe no enough budget.



Polyurea is very cheap, people use it to coat truck, basement, swimming pool, . . . buildings.

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## grey boy 2

Distributions of J-10A.S,B,C and J-20 in 2017 (解读中国空军J-10A、B、S近期混编战略意图 credits to China Civilian Alone)

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## Deino

First of all what does DX-1 and SX-1 mean ??

But IMO this is only a highly unrelaible fan-made chart !

Concerning the J-10B, since when has the 124. Brigade received 8 aircraft and even more for the J-10C it does not make any sense to start conversion with so many different units at the same time each getting only 4 aircraft (like here the fro, K24, K9, K15, K12, ... ) also there are no reports about the 1. and 3. Division already having J-10C.
Also for the J-10A, since when does the 130 AR/44. AD have J-10A, and why only 4 ??

And finally since when is any J-20 delivered to the units listed above?

Deino


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## jkroo

Deino, pls show your basic respect to ppl who contribute to this 'table' which is not chart especially when u don't totally understand what the table mean. That really shocked me.

You need an image translator since you just can't comprehend some of the Pinyin code.
DX = Ding Xin

For your claim above, show hand?

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## Deino

jkroo said:


> Deino, pls show your basic respect to ppl who contribute to this 'table' which is not chart especially when u don't totally understand what the table mean. That really shocked me.
> 
> You need an image translator since you just can't comprehend some of the Pinyin code.
> DX = Ding Xin
> 
> For your claim above, show hand?



I'm sorry and agree with You that my lack of Chinese reading is an issue, and I'm eager to learn or to be corrected by anyone with a better insight.

But alone what I can read does not make sense, is sometimes contradicting and as such I'm really sorry if You think I owe ppl respect - which usually I do - but only to ppl who really earn respect.

Therefore the Orbat for the J-10B looks ok, even if not fine for the Dingxin (aka 175. Brig) and even if I do not understand SX-2 (IMO most likely the FTTC unit aka 171. Brigade). I also agree with K2, K21 and K19 ... K124 I'm sceptical, since that unit was the last to gain the A model. But even further, to assume that there are already 7 Regiment operational with the J-10C some with only 4 J-10C each is plain ridiculous ... Why equip 8 units with only 4 J-10C each before making a full complement. More again there are so far no reports about K3, K1 being re-equipped .. the only unit which fit is K44-131.

And finalyl he mentions the K2 to have already 2 J-20 + K21 and K19 also 4. It makes no sense since they just converted to the J-10B ... while at the same time the confirmed 176. Brigade is missing. 

Come on, that table is so much off and simply wrong, but again I'm eager to learn !

Therefore to ask me to show hand for my claims is a bit off ... IMO he needs to show hand for his claims. It's again that old issue if someone tells that the J-20 uses a +210 kN engine and asks anyone who denies this to prove the contrary.

Deino


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## jkroo

He don't need it for he state the steps. 1st -> 2nd and even some of his words used 'TO BE CONFIRMED'.

What you explained is pale to me, man. What you don't know is that some of you can read is not what you think.

Tell you that the title of the table is 'Till first half of year 2017'.

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## Deino

jkroo said:


> He don't need it for he state the steps. 1st -> 2nd and even some of his words used 'TO BE CONFIRMED'.
> 
> What you explained is pale to me, man. What you don't know is that some of you can read is not what you think.
> 
> Tell you that the title of the table is 'Till first half of year 2017'.




Again I'm sorry if You feel offended, but even more if it is an anticipated "to be converted to" list, it makes no sense. Why only 4 aircraft to several unit? why established units missing while others listed ?? Pre fan-work or based on reports?

Again I'm eager to learn but already the J-11 Orbat list was wrong in so many places ...


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## jkroo

Deino said:


> Again I'm sorry if You feel offended, but even more if it is an anticipated "to be converted to" list, it makes no sense. Why only 4 aircraft to several unit? why established units missing while others listed ?? Pre fan-work or based on reports?
> 
> Again I'm eager to learn but already the J-11 Orbat list was wrong in so many places ...



No, I'm not that easy to be offended and your skeptical points seems quite rational. Don't get me wrong and I am here just kindly remind you that don't be so sure under the condition that you don't understand(especially conveyed with the high context language).

In domestic forum, I will choose to ignore the table. lol.

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## Deino

jkroo said:


> No, I'm not that easy to be offended and your skeptical points seems quite rational. Don't get me wrong and I am here just kindly remind you that don't be so sure under the condition that you don't understand(especially conveyed with the high context language).
> 
> In domestic forum, I will choose to ignore the table. lol.




Thanks a lot for Your reply and I am indeed well aware that due to my lack of understanding certain - and surely also often quite important issues - get lost ... but the errors alone make this IMO unreliable.

Therefore I'm always thankful for any explanation.

Deino


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## grey boy 2



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## grey boy 2

J-10C

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## 3jiL

grey boy 2 said:


> Distributions of J-10A.S,B,C and J-20 in 2017 (解读中国空军J-10A、B、S近期混编战略意图 credits to China Civilian Alone)


Plz translate Chinese Word. 
Tnx.


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## grey boy 2



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## graphican

I wish so much that Pakistan would operate them. 48+ pieces in Pakistan's skies would means enemy's tail is under his legs - all the time.

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## grey boy 2

J-10C and J-10A, S

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## Deino

... so they are close to batch 03 soon ??

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## WarFariX

@Chinese-Dragon Any official hints or rumoures/updates on J-10D yet??? @Deino


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## Deino

Not that I heard of


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## j20blackdragon

Deino said:


> ... so they are close to batch 03 soon ??
> 
> View attachment 372678
> View attachment 372679
> View attachment 372680



It does not make sense for Batch 01 to stop at 53-55 aircraft and Batch 02 at 54.

Each batch should be 60 for 5 full regiments.


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## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> It does not make sense for Batch 01 to stop at 53-55 aircraft and Batch 02 at 54.
> 
> Each batch should be 60 for 5 full regiments.




I never said that this *is* the final batch 02 aircraft; I only said that - by assuming Batch 02 will probably have a similar size of its batch to Batch 01 - so this is close to the final one.

By the way, if it should be a run for "5 full regiments", the number should be as much as about 100 since a regular regiment has a complement of 24 aircraft (20 single seaters + 4 trainers).

Deino


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## 3jiL

J-10D in 2012?!
"Henri K" Say J-10D Under Development in CAC, But. . . .
where is the j-10C? No official source from PLAAF or chengdu has confirmed "C" Variant, Now speaking from "D" ? ! ! ! !
WE have J-10B blk-2, NOT HAVE J-10C "NEVER EVER"


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## j20blackdragon

Deino said:


> I never said that this *is* the final batch 02 aircraft; I only said that - by assuming Batch 02 will probably have a similar size of its batch to Batch 01 - so this is close to the final one.
> 
> By the way, if it should be a run for "5 full regiments", the number should be as much as about 100 since a regular regiment has a complement of 24 aircraft (20 single seaters + 4 trainers).
> 
> Deino



A J-10 regiment has 28 aircraft (24 single seaters + 4 twin seaters).





Let's assume the J-10B/C production batches are 60 aircraft each.

120 aircraft total.

120 / 24 = 5 regiments.

The original J-10/A production batches were 40 aircraft each.

40 * 3 = 120.

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## Deino

Thanks for the correction ... I'm always mixing it !

The PLANAF J-10 regiment however has 28 aircraft.


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## MystryMan

Is there any publicity poster or brochure available on J10C with specifications? On Wikipedia I only found for J10A.
@cnleio , @cirr , @Deino , @wanglaokan


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## Daniel808

MystryMan said:


> Is there any publicity poster or brochure available on J10C with specifications? On Wikipedia I only found for J10A.
> @cnleio , @cirr , @Deino , @wanglaokan




*J-10B Vigorous Dragon/Firebird
*


A *J-10B* (K/JJ10B?) multirole fighter was photographed in the sky over Chengdu before it was handed over to PLAAF. This much improved variant made its maiden flight on December 23, 2008, powered by a Russian AL-31FN engine (1031 prototype).
The improvements include a DSI/"Bump" inlet which not only cuts weight but also reduces RCS, after a similar design was first tested onboard *FC-1/JF-17*. The aircraft also features a new indigenous IRST/LR in front of the canopy, a white IFR probe light on the starboard side of the nose, a *JF-17* style glass cockpit with a wide-angle holographic HUD, three large color MFDs and an HMDS.
The new IRST allows passive detection of enemy aircraft, making *J-10B* more stealthy in combat. Its nose appears flatter too, similar to that of American F-16, housing a new fire-control radar which is thought to be an X-band PESA developed by the 607 Institute (track 10, engage 4 simultaneously), the first of such type ever being developed for a Chinese fighter aircraft, giving *J-10B* a stronger multi-target engagement and ECCM capability.
It was rumored that initially the aircraft was planned to be fitted with an AESA developed by the 14th Institute but the radar was not ready by the time the aircraft was ready for production. An ECM antenna can also be seen right in front of the canard foreplane on the 1035 prototype.


The tip of vertical tailfin was redesigned as well, featuring a long compartment housing communication and ECM antennas, which resembles that of French Mirage 2000. A rear facing MAWS sensor can be seen underneath the parachute boom. A similar system was tested onboard *FC-1/JF-17*.
RAM coating is also expected in certain areas such as engine inlet and wing leading edges to reduce RCS.
All these improvements suggest that *J-10B* is equipped with a new generation of integrated electronic system connected via an optic HSDB, ranging from radar to EW system.
Its mission may be changed from air-superiority to multi-role, such as CAS or EW. For air-superiority mission, normally 6 AAMs (PL-12x4 + PL-8x2 or PL-10x2, PL-12s are carried underneath the dual missile launch rails) are carried. For CAS missions, normally 2 KD-88 AGMs, or 2 LS-500J LGBs, or 2 new GB1/TG500 500kg LGBs can be carried. 2 YJ-91s can be carried for SEAD mission.


The laser designator pod is thought to be K/JDC01A . A KG600 ECM pod can also be carried underneath the engine air intake for enhanced EW capability. Overall *J-10B* is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60. The 03 prototype (1033) first flew in August 2009, with the pitot tube removed from the nose tip. Both 1031 & 1034 prototypes were tested at CFTE.

An indigenous WS-10B turbofan engine was tested for some time on 1035 in 2011 but did not proceed forward. *J-10B* is likely to serve as a testbed for various advanced technologies adopted by the 4th generation *J-20* currently under development at CAC thus may not enter the service in large quantity with PLAAF.

In March 2013 the 1031 prototype was seen with ECM antennas installed ahead of the canard foreplanes similar to those onboard 1035, which represents the final configuration before the production. The production of *J-10B* finally started in 2013 after the delivery of a new batch of AL-31FN Series 3 engines (13.7t with A/B). By May 2015 around 53 01 batch *J-10B*s had been produced and the delivery started in 2014, possibly to the PLAAF Flight Test & Training Base, PLAAF 2nd Division and 21st Division (S/N 78x1x, 10x3x, 3xx0x, 30x2x, 78x7x?).

Meanwhile a further upgraded variant (*J-10C*) with an AESA radar was under development (see below). Recent images (September 2015) indicated that the improved WS-10B turbofan with FADEC has been installed onboard the last two J-10Bs of the 01 batch (#0155 & 0156, S/N 78x1x?), suggesting the engine has finally overcome the reliability issues and is ready to power the remaining batches of *J-10C*s. *J-10B* was officially unveiled at the 2016 Zhuhai Airshow, carrying dual PL-12 missile launch rails.
_- Last Updated 1/17/17


_


*J-10C Vigorous Dragon/Firebird*


It was first rumored in June 2013 that a "full standard" variant (*J-10C*) with enhanced 4th generation electronics including an AESA radar, which is finally available, was under development. The *J-10C*(K/JJ10C?) #201 prototype (later renumbered as #1051) took to the sky for the first time on December 31, 2013, powered by an AL-31FN Series 3 engine.
The aircraft appears to have close similarity with *J-10B* except for an additional datalink antenna on its spine ahead of the vertical tailfin. The aircraft is capable of firing the latest PL-10 and PL-12G AAMs. It was speculated that the 02 batch would be *J-10C*s instead of *J-10B*s.

Recent images taken in November 2015 indicated that the production of the 02 batch has begun. They are thought to be *J-10C*s with VLOC antennas installed on top of the vertical tailfin and without the rear MAWS sensors on the tail (reason unknown). The aircraft is still powered by AL-31FN Series 3 turbofan and it is unclear when WS-10B will be fitted. Recent images (February 2016) indicated that *J-10C* is getting ready to enter the service with PLAAF Flight Test & Training Base (S/N 78x1x? 78x7x? 5xx5x?).
The latest rumor (April 2016) suggested that 611 is developing another upgraded variant (J-10D?) which might feature CFTs to increase its range as well as a more powerful WS-10IPE (14t class?) turbofan engine with a stealth nozzle toreduce its radar and IR signatures. _- Last Updated 12/6/16

Source :
http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.co.id/p/fighters-ii.html

Hope it can help you. 

_

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## 3jiL

I Say again,, No evidence that 1053 or 201 prototype are J-10C.
So better thad, We only Can Saying 1053 and 201(and 53 built) are blk-2 of J-10B.


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## Deino

3jiL said:


> I Say again,, No evidence that 1053 or 201 prototype are J-10C.
> So better thad, We only Can Saying 1053 and 201(and 53 built) are blk-2 of J-10B.




Sorry to have a different opinion, the fact alone that the prototypes for each new subtype uses a new number-block is a clear hint IMO that they are in fact different versions:

- all J-10A prototypes are 101x-serialed
- all J-10S/AS prototypes were 102x-serialed
- all J-10B prototypes are 103x-serialed

so there are few other explanations, why a 105x-serialed prototype should not be J-10C ??

Deino


PS: ... and what's about the missing 104x-serials ?? Reserved for a potential J-10B/D-twin-seater ??

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## MystryMan

Daniel808 said:


> *J-10B Vigorous Dragon/Firebird
> *
> 
> 
> A *J-10B* (K/JJ10B?) multirole fighter was photographed in the sky over Chengdu before it was handed over to PLAAF. This much improved variant made its maiden flight on December 23, 2008, powered by a Russian AL-31FN engine (1031 prototype).
> The improvements include a DSI/"Bump" inlet which not only cuts weight but also reduces RCS, after a similar design was first tested onboard *FC-1/JF-17*. The aircraft also features a new indigenous IRST/LR in front of the canopy, a white IFR probe light on the starboard side of the nose, a *JF-17* style glass cockpit with a wide-angle holographic HUD, three large color MFDs and an HMDS.
> The new IRST allows passive detection of enemy aircraft, making *J-10B* more stealthy in combat. Its nose appears flatter too, similar to that of American F-16, housing a new fire-control radar which is thought to be an X-band PESA developed by the 607 Institute (track 10, engage 4 simultaneously), the first of such type ever being developed for a Chinese fighter aircraft, giving *J-10B* a stronger multi-target engagement and ECCM capability.
> It was rumored that initially the aircraft was planned to be fitted with an AESA developed by the 14th Institute but the radar was not ready by the time the aircraft was ready for production. An ECM antenna can also be seen right in front of the canard foreplane on the 1035 prototype.
> 
> 
> The tip of vertical tailfin was redesigned as well, featuring a long compartment housing communication and ECM antennas, which resembles that of French Mirage 2000. A rear facing MAWS sensor can be seen underneath the parachute boom. A similar system was tested onboard *FC-1/JF-17*.
> RAM coating is also expected in certain areas such as engine inlet and wing leading edges to reduce RCS.
> All these improvements suggest that *J-10B* is equipped with a new generation of integrated electronic system connected via an optic HSDB, ranging from radar to EW system.
> Its mission may be changed from air-superiority to multi-role, such as CAS or EW. For air-superiority mission, normally 6 AAMs (PL-12x4 + PL-8x2 or PL-10x2, PL-12s are carried underneath the dual missile launch rails) are carried. For CAS missions, normally 2 KD-88 AGMs, or 2 LS-500J LGBs, or 2 new GB1/TG500 500kg LGBs can be carried. 2 YJ-91s can be carried for SEAD mission.
> 
> 
> The laser designator pod is thought to be K/JDC01A . A KG600 ECM pod can also be carried underneath the engine air intake for enhanced EW capability. Overall *J-10B* is thought to be comparable to American F-16E/Block 60. The 03 prototype (1033) first flew in August 2009, with the pitot tube removed from the nose tip. Both 1031 & 1034 prototypes were tested at CFTE.
> 
> An indigenous WS-10B turbofan engine was tested for some time on 1035 in 2011 but did not proceed forward. *J-10B* is likely to serve as a testbed for various advanced technologies adopted by the 4th generation *J-20* currently under development at CAC thus may not enter the service in large quantity with PLAAF.
> 
> In March 2013 the 1031 prototype was seen with ECM antennas installed ahead of the canard foreplanes similar to those onboard 1035, which represents the final configuration before the production. The production of *J-10B* finally started in 2013 after the delivery of a new batch of AL-31FN Series 3 engines (13.7t with A/B). By May 2015 around 53 01 batch *J-10B*s had been produced and the delivery started in 2014, possibly to the PLAAF Flight Test & Training Base, PLAAF 2nd Division and 21st Division (S/N 78x1x, 10x3x, 3xx0x, 30x2x, 78x7x?).
> 
> Meanwhile a further upgraded variant (*J-10C*) with an AESA radar was under development (see below). Recent images (September 2015) indicated that the improved WS-10B turbofan with FADEC has been installed onboard the last two J-10Bs of the 01 batch (#0155 & 0156, S/N 78x1x?), suggesting the engine has finally overcome the reliability issues and is ready to power the remaining batches of *J-10C*s. *J-10B* was officially unveiled at the 2016 Zhuhai Airshow, carrying dual PL-12 missile launch rails.
> _- Last Updated 1/17/17
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> *J-10C Vigorous Dragon/Firebird*
> 
> 
> It was first rumored in June 2013 that a "full standard" variant (*J-10C*) with enhanced 4th generation electronics including an AESA radar, which is finally available, was under development. The *J-10C*(K/JJ10C?) #201 prototype (later renumbered as #1051) took to the sky for the first time on December 31, 2013, powered by an AL-31FN Series 3 engine.
> The aircraft appears to have close similarity with *J-10B* except for an additional datalink antenna on its spine ahead of the vertical tailfin. The aircraft is capable of firing the latest PL-10 and PL-12G AAMs. It was speculated that the 02 batch would be *J-10C*s instead of *J-10B*s.
> 
> Recent images taken in November 2015 indicated that the production of the 02 batch has begun. They are thought to be *J-10C*s with VLOC antennas installed on top of the vertical tailfin and without the rear MAWS sensors on the tail (reason unknown). The aircraft is still powered by AL-31FN Series 3 turbofan and it is unclear when WS-10B will be fitted. Recent images (February 2016) indicated that *J-10C* is getting ready to enter the service with PLAAF Flight Test & Training Base (S/N 78x1x? 78x7x? 5xx5x?).
> The latest rumor (April 2016) suggested that 611 is developing another upgraded variant (J-10D?) which might feature CFTs to increase its range as well as a more powerful WS-10IPE (14t class?) turbofan engine with a stealth nozzle toreduce its radar and IR signatures. _- Last Updated 12/6/16
> 
> Source :
> http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.co.id/p/fighters-ii.html
> 
> Hope it can help you.
> _


Thanks for your reply. Is there any source available which states its combat radius, payload etc. Or may be a comparative chart between version A, B and C which highlight the performance improvement e.g: radar detection range, TWS etc.

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## WarFariX

MystryMan said:


> Thanks for your reply. Is there any source available which states its combat radius, payload etc. Or may be a comparative chart between version A, B and C which highlight the performance improvement e.g: radar detection range, TWS etc.


http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.co.com/

Check this..evrything u need about china aviation

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## WarFariX

@Deino any idea who made this awesome blogspot and this is regularly updated


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> @Deino any idea who made this awesome blogspot and this is regularly updated




YES, that's a guy named Huitong and I'm quite regularly in contact with him discussing certain things on Chinese matters. He's a more than kind and generous guy; I admire him and deem him a true friend.

Besides that he has a Weibo-account under a different name as *jetfight2000*

http://www.weibo.com/u/5596911390?refer_flag=1001030101_&is_hot=1

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> YES, that's a guy named Huitong and I'm quite regularly in contact with him discussing certain things on Chinese matters. He's a more than kind and generous guy; I admire him and deem him a true friend.
> 
> Besides that he has a Weibo-account under a different name as *jetfight2000*
> 
> http://www.weibo.com/u/5596911390?refer_flag=1001030101_&is_hot=1


does he have fb or twitter?


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## Deino

MarvellousThunder@PDC said:


> does he have fb or twitter?




Not that I know !


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## 3jiL

Deino said:


> Sorry to have a different opinion, the fact alone that the prototypes for each new subtype uses a new number-block is a clear hint IMO that they are in fact different versions:
> 
> - all J-10A prototypes are 101x-serialed
> - all J-10S/AS prototypes were 102x-serialed
> - all J-10B prototypes are 103x-serialed
> 
> so there are few other explanations, why a 105x-serialed prototype should not be J-10C ??
> 
> Deino
> 
> 
> PS: ... and what's about the missing 104x-serials ?? Reserved for a potential J-10B/D-twin-seater ??


Dear Deino , this number and serial and connection between them, is our interpretation of them.
We have j-10 prototype with 100X
We haven't main blk for j-10A, That have a major changes, until define new serial number and seeing them.
But now have one prototype with major change, So we define a new serial number for them.
You say 1051 is a j-10C prototype and second batch of j-10B name is J-10C, but We seeing "201"(mean's first of second batch that naming J-10C) with MAW and additional blade Antenna that before on "1051" (mean's J-10B+C!) and in 2015/2016 we seeing 2XX(230,204,........,254) without MAW.

All these are contradictions.


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## Akasa

3jiL said:


> Dear Deino , this number and serial and connection between them, is our interpretation of them.
> We have j-10 prototype with 100X
> We haven't main blk for j-10A, That have a major changes, until define new serial number and seeing them.
> But now have one prototype with major change, So we define a new serial number for them.
> You say 1053 is a j-10C prototype and second batch of j-10B name is J-10C, but We seeing "201"(mean's first of second batch that naming J-10C) with MAW and additional blade Antenna that before on "1053" (mean's J-10B+C!) and in 2015 we seeing 2XX without MAW.
> 
> All these are contradictions.



The first one or two prototypes of the J-10C came with an external MAW. Later prototypes didn't have this anymore.


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## Deino

3jiL said:


> Dear Deino , this number and serial and connection between them, is our interpretation of them.
> We have j-10 prototype with 100X



Yes, but these are the very first prototypes, maybe comparable to the J-20 2001 & 2002.



> We haven't main blk for j-10A, That have a major changes, until define new serial number and seeing them.
> But now have one prototype with major change, So we define a new serial number for them.
> You say 1053 is a j-10C prototype and second batch of j-10B name is J-10C, but We seeing "201"(mean's first of second batch that naming J-10C) with MAW and additional blade Antenna that before on "1053" (mean's J-10B+C!) and in 2015 we seeing 2XX without MAW.
> 
> All these are contradictions.



I agree with You, that there are a few "issues" not entirely clear, but the pattern itself is quite clear and consistent.
If the aircraft 1051 would in fact be a plain and simple J-10B, why then a new number with "5" as third digit ? IMO this also shows - besides the differences to all later serial birds - that CAC and/or the PLAAF have issues a separate designation.

Final solution to our question would be a close-up image of a c/n of a "J-10C" - or Batch 02 J-10B if You prefer - similar to the one we've seen on the J-10B (Batch 01) in Zhuhai, which surely confirmed their designation for all critics. 

Deino


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## 3jiL

Deino said:


> Yes, but these are the very first prototypes, maybe comparable to the J-20 2001 & 2002.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with You, that there are a few "issues" not entirely clear, but the pattern itself is quite clear and consistent.
> If the aircraft 1051 would in fact be a plain and simple J-10B, why then a new number with "5" as third digit ? IMO this also shows - besides the differences to all later serial birds - that CAC and/or the PLAAF have issues a separate designation.
> 
> Final solution to our question would be a close-up image of a c/n of a "J-10C" - or Batch 02 J-10B if You prefer - similar to the one we've seen on the J-10B (Batch 01) in Zhuhai, which surely confirmed their designation for all critics.
> 
> Deino



Dear Deino
We agree with you that 1051or 201 have changes and upgrade in Compared with first j-10B, but remember first 60 J-10A aircraft built in CAC that update with Newer avionics in same time.
Now we facing with Same topic in first and second batch of J-10B.
In the near future we seeing batch 3 of j-10b, IF seeing one prototype(from batch-3) under serial number 104X that Have new version of WS-10 engine, additional MAW, New blade antenna with same AESA radar. we saying J-10D?!!!
In other hand we seeing Talk about new version naming "J-10D", two seater version with CFT ! ! !, that changing Name to J-10E ! ! ! !
I SAY AGAIN THIS IS OUR OPINION OF J-10 PRODUCTION S/N , Remember in 2006, some people talk about DSI for J-10B , but many says impossible , but We seeing J-10B with DSI in 2008.


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## Deino

Pardon ... with "Our" You want to say "it's my own" interpretation ??

Overall I agree with You especially Your argument concerning the later batches of J-10A are a good and most valid point. But why then are so many - also and esp. Chinese sources - call these Batch 02 J-10Bs a J-10C ??

And finally concerning this J-10E ... only "Your" guesswork or is there more behind? It's the first time someone mentioned it here ....

Thanks & cheers,
Deino


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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> Pardon ... with "Our" You want to say "it's my own" interpretation ??
> 
> Overall I agree with You especially Your argument concerning the later batches of J-10A are a good and most valid point. But why then are so many - also and esp. Chinese sources - call these Batch 02 J-10Bs a J-10C ??
> 
> And finally concerning this J-10E ... only "Your" guesswork or is there more behind? It's the first time someone mentioned it here ....
> 
> Thanks & cheers,
> Deino


Sir i madly confused now . Is there even something such as J-10 C or the ones we call j10c are actually j10b block2 ???


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## Deino

That's exactly the question. I don't know who was the first to mention the Batch 02 a J-10C but since then this designation seems to be a widely accepted "fact" ...

Like I noted yesterday, the only proof which could solve this would be a close-up image of such a Batch 02 bird showing its c/n as on this J-10B Batch 01 at Zhuhai: J-10B no. 10537 - 2. Division is clearly designated as a "B" by its c/n J10B0117.

So, let's go out and look for an operational Batch 02 aircraft ...

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## WarFariX

Deino said:


> That's exactly the question. I don't know who was the first to mention the Batch 02 a J-10C but since then this designation seems to be a widely accepted "fact" ...
> 
> Like I noted yesterday, the only proof which could solve this would be a close-up image of such a Batch 02 bird showing its c/n as on this J-10B Batch 01 at Zhuhai: J-10B no. 10537 - 2. Division is clearly designated as a "B" by its c/n J10B0117.
> 
> So, let's go out and look for an operational Batch 02 aircraft ...
> 
> View attachment 374695


i wonder who started this "C" thing...anything official in this regard?


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## grey boy 2

J-10B

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## 3jiL

Deino said:


> Pardon ... with "Our" You want to say "it's my own" interpretation ??
> 
> Overall I agree with You especially Your argument concerning the later batches of J-10A are a good and most valid point. But why then are so many - also and esp. Chinese sources - call these Batch 02 J-10Bs a J-10C ??
> 
> And finally concerning this J-10E ... only "Your" guesswork or is there more behind? It's the first time someone mentioned it here ....
> 
> Thanks & cheers,
> Deino


Dear Deino

If I used the word "we", I closed all together( you, me and all here). 
But about J-10C, which officials Authorities of PLAAF or CAC confirmed the J-10C existence? This name, only build by Chinese Internet FAN. 
About J-10E this is only Example.

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## Akasa

3jiL said:


> Dear Deino
> 
> If I used the word "we", I closed all together( you, me and all here).
> But about J-10C, which officials Authorities of PLAAF or CAC confirmed the J-10C existence? This name, only build by Chinese Internet FAN.
> About J-10E this is only Example.



None of the subclass designations have been confirmed, but serial numbers on factory-fresh airframes suggest that the "C" variant is a distinct model from earlier iterations. Airframe modifications also suggest the same.

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## Brainsucker

SinoSoldier said:


> None of the subclass designations have been confirmed, but serial numbers on factory-fresh airframes suggest that the "C" variant is a distinct model from earlier iterations. Airframe modifications also suggest the same.



Yes, that's apply to J-10B too. There is no official subclass designations from the maker of these birds. But they (the factory) aware that people in the internet call them J-10B and J-10C


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## Deino

Brainsucker said:


> Yes, that's apply to J-10B too. There is no official subclass designations from the maker of these birds. But they (the factory) aware that people in the internet call them J-10B and J-10C


No .. if You look closely on the A-models, then they have a cn applied all over the airframe and that is J10Axxxx, the same can be seen on that bird shown at Zhuhai, which is clearly labeled J10B with its cn.

So at least the A and B models are officially.

Deino


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## Deino

After some longer break finally again a serial J-10B ... looks like a bird from the 19th Division !?

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## cirr



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## 帅的一匹

cirr said:


> View attachment 387429


I'm lovin it . I hope I see this *** everyday.

@cirr is this one latest picture of J10c?

I hope J10c with WS10 will enter mass production, it realize the dream of a generation.


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## graphican

A non-Pakistani/Chinese YouTube Channel by the name Gallery Military in a recent video claimed that Pakistan has purchased two squardons of J-10s.

*Published on 16 Mar 2017*
Pakistan and China have been cooperating for a number of years on the JF-17/ FC-1 Thunder, a low-medium performance, low-cost aircraft that has attracted interest and orders from a number of 3rd World air forces. In November 2016, a long-rumored deal was announced for China’s Jian-10/ FC-20 4+ generation fighter, whose overall performance compares well with the F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft that Pakistan has ordered from the United States.
The J-10 has been reported as a derivative of the 1980s Israeli Lavi project, and reportedly incorporates an Israeli fly-by-wire control base that was transferred in the project’s early years. The change in relations that followed the Tienanmen Square massacre hurt the J-10 project badly, however, forcing the replacement of planned Western avionics and engines with Chinese and Russian equipment. The required redesign was very extensive, affected all areas of the airframe, and took over a decade, amounting to the development of a new aircraft. The first operational J-10 unit entered service with the PLAAF 
China has reportedly ordered 100 J-10s to date. The initial Pakistani order is for 2 squadrons, but could expand as technical cooperation and orders increase. The $1+ billion sale represents the J-10’s first export order… but almost certainly not its last.


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## Army research

graphican said:


> A non-Pakistani/Chinese YouTube Channel by the name Gallery Military in a recent video claimed that Pakistan has purchased two squardons of J-10s.
> 
> *Published on 16 Mar 2017*
> Pakistan and China have been cooperating for a number of years on the JF-17/ FC-1 Thunder, a low-medium performance, low-cost aircraft that has attracted interest and orders from a number of 3rd World air forces. In November 2016, a long-rumored deal was announced for China’s Jian-10/ FC-20 4+ generation fighter, whose overall performance compares well with the F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft that Pakistan has ordered from the United States.
> The J-10 has been reported as a derivative of the 1980s Israeli Lavi project, and reportedly incorporates an Israeli fly-by-wire control base that was transferred in the project’s early years. The change in relations that followed the Tienanmen Square massacre hurt the J-10 project badly, however, forcing the replacement of planned Western avionics and engines with Chinese and Russian equipment. The required redesign was very extensive, affected all areas of the airframe, and took over a decade, amounting to the development of a new aircraft. The first operational J-10 unit entered service with the PLAAF
> China has reportedly ordered 100 J-10s to date. The initial Pakistani order is for 2 squadrons, but could expand as technical cooperation and orders increase. The $1+ billion sale represents the J-10’s first export order… but almost certainly not its last.


Would anyone confirm this? Also which version AESA infra hmds?


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## Deino

graphican said:


> ...
> China has reportedly ordered 100 J-10s to date. The initial Pakistani order is for 2 squadrons, but could expand as technical cooperation and orders increase. The $1+ billion sale represents the J-10’s first export order… but almost certainly not its last.




IMO plain and simple report based on dated information: We all know that alone more than 250 J-10A/AS are operational and already more than 100 B/Cs are flying. So IMO that reported did simply a lousy job during his research.

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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> I'm lovin it . I hope I see this *** everyday.
> 
> @cirr is this one latest picture of J10c?
> 
> I hope J10c with WS10 will enter mass production, it realize the dream of a generation.




No, it is clearly one of the final two WS-10-equipped B-models and from what we know this images is already dated (need to look at home) and both are already assigned to the 170. Brigade FTTC.

By the way, Your last sentence is most important: what's the current number-count of J-10Cs ?? Any news on the Batch 03 ?? Any news on the J-10D ??


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## TaimiKhan

cirr said:


> View attachment 387429



Engine is Chinese or the Russian one ?? Seems WS-10.

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## kuge

TaimiKhan said:


> Engine is Chinese or the Russian one ?? Seems WS-10.


ws-10

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## grey boy 2

J-10B

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## Deino

Any latest news ??? With all these latest news on the Type 001A, C919, UAVs and so on it seems as if no one cares about the J-10 anymore ... what's the current production status? Are they already within batch 03 ... at what number and what are the latest regiments ?

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Any latest news ??? With all these latest news on the Type 001A, C919, UAVs and so on it seems as if no one cares about the J-10 anymore ... what's the current production status? Are they already within batch 03 ... at what number and what are the latest regiments ?


With J20 and J31 at hand, I think J10 is no more a star in PLAAF.

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## grey boy 2

J-10A 
南部战区空军某旅歼-10A/S战机初夏开训 #制胜空天##军改一年来# 5月中旬，西南某机场战鹰列阵，鏖战正酣，南部战区空军航空兵某旅飞行训练如火如荼进行。该旅在组训施训过程中从难拟定训练课目，从严把控训练标准节奏，集中组织飞行员进行技术研讨、分析细节，认真总结每一次训练，使飞行训练质量效益

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-10A
> 南部战区空军某旅歼-10A/S战机初夏开训 #制胜空天##军改一年来# 5月中旬，西南某机场战鹰列阵，鏖战正酣，南部战区空军航空兵某旅飞行训练如火如荼进行。该旅在组训施训过程中从难拟定训练课目，从严把控训练标准节奏，集中组织飞行员进行技术研讨、分析细节，认真总结每一次训练，使飞行训练质量效益



Seems to be that the 44th Division's three regiments - 130th, 131st and 132nd - are getting brigadised !... so we can expect another number-change. to 74x1x, 74x2x and 74x3x serials.


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## grey boy 2

J-10B

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## grey boy 2

J-10S

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-10B




Amazing shot of an even more impressive bird !

By the way, does anyone know what's the current number and batch under delivery ? The most recent bird I know is no. 2-54 from late January.

Deino

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## grey boy 2

J-10C

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-10C




Indeed as fart as I know the only image showing an operational J-10C with full visible (possible visible) serial number ... but only altered by PS ! Would love to see it clear.

Anyway it is already nearly half a year old and posted first on 30. December 2016.


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## salman-1

Ca


graphican said:


> A non-Pakistani/Chinese YouTube Channel by the name Gallery Military in a recent video claimed that Pakistan has purchased two squardons of J-10s.
> 
> *Published on 16 Mar 2017*
> Pakistan and China have been cooperating for a number of years on the JF-17/ FC-1 Thunder, a low-medium performance, low-cost aircraft that has attracted interest and orders from a number of 3rd World air forces. In November 2016, a long-rumored deal was announced for China’s Jian-10/ FC-20 4+ generation fighter, whose overall performance compares well with the F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft that Pakistan has ordered from the United States.
> The J-10 has been reported as a derivative of the 1980s Israeli Lavi project, and reportedly incorporates an Israeli fly-by-wire control base that was transferred in the project’s early years. The change in relations that followed the Tienanmen Square massacre hurt the J-10 project badly, however, forcing the replacement of planned Western avionics and engines with Chinese and Russian equipment. The required redesign was very extensive, affected all areas of the airframe, and took over a decade, amounting to the development of a new aircraft. The first operational J-10 unit entered service with the PLAAF
> China has reportedly ordered 100 J-10s to date. The initial Pakistani order is for 2 squadrons, but could expand as technical cooperation and orders increase. The $1+ billion sale represents the J-10’s first export order… but almost certainly not its last.


can any one do some serious digging for this rumour or news that Pakistan has placed an order for J10, we are dieing to have this jet for 5-7 years. Our Air Force placed an order for 3 Swedish AWACS in full secrecy and now revealed after a year just before delivery that they r arriving. This can be a similar case for J10 we wish.


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## 帅的一匹

salman-1 said:


> Ca
> 
> can any one do some serious digging for this rumour or news that Pakistan has placed an order for J10, we are dieing to have this jet for 5-7 years. Our Air Force placed an order for 3 Swedish AWACS in full secrecy and now revealed after a year just before delivery that they r arriving. This can be a similar case for J10 we wish.


PAF won't go for J10, the same old deal had been canceled 8 years ago.

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## Deino

hoho ... finally some news 

http://www.fyjs.cn/thread-1870312-1-1.html

Any info on where "Zhang81zhang" took these images ?

Deino

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## grey boy 2

Celebration of the J-10B 1st flight of the 61 brigade 
中国军网讯 周慧文 曾乐怡 特约记者薛小岭报道：5月中旬以来，北部战区空军航空兵某旅多名新员陆续单飞，他们一下飞机，早已在机棚守候多时的潘振平政委赶忙迎上前与他们亲切握手，送上献花和问候。首飞仪式上，看着丈夫被众星捧月般围绕，妻子吴雨伦倍感骄傲，她激动地给了丈夫祁鹏飞一个大大的拥抱。

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> Celebration of the J-10B 1st flight of the 61 brigade
> 中国军网讯 周慧文 曾乐怡 特约记者薛小岭报道：5月中旬以来，北部战区空军航空兵某旅多名新员陆续单飞，他们一下飞机，早已在机棚守候多时的潘振平政委赶忙迎上前与他们亲切握手，送上献花和问候。首飞仪式上，看着丈夫被众星捧月般围绕，妻子吴雨伦倍感骄傲，她激动地给了丈夫祁鹏飞一个大大的拥抱。




So another identified as a Brigade !


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## Deino

Deino said:


> So another identified as a Brigade !




 confirmed by new serial !

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## Kompromat

J-10B seems low on composite construction?

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## grey boy 2

34 fighter jets in one brigade (一个航空旅有34架战机)

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## 帅的一匹

Horus said:


> J-10B seems low on composite construction?


Dun know

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## grey boy 2

J-10C, what a beauty

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## grey boy 2

Boy, today is simply special
1st picture of 轰油6 preparing to feed 2 J-10C

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## Deino

Reportedly take at Huairen (43rd AR/15. AD)

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## grey boy 2

They said its new J-10B or C?

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## Grandy

*J-10C In The End How Advanced?*





J-10C coated with a gray coating with conformal tank

Integrated active phased array radar in fire control system, the positive development of the J-10A/B project has already begun with the next generation of aircraft configuration, all innovative solutions now reflected in this J-10C change model. Its appearance and connotation has been close to the level of the fifth generation fighter.

According to the Russian military observer published an article entitled "J-10C aircraft company to make the western headache" article said that J-10C multifunctional fighter can be easily classified in the 4++ generation, the installation of conformal tank, can also add a "+", because the plane already belongs to the fifth generation of local. Very compact wing missile racks also prove this point.

J-10C is the strongest and most modern China stealth fourth generation fighter, it is no wonder that Russian experts will become the first 4+++ generation fighter, is second only to Chinese fifth generation jet fighters J-20 models.

The reason is because the radar cross section of J-10C (RCS) of about 1 square meters, basically can be said to be a quasi stealth fighter, but much lower than the J-10A/B, but more than 1/10 fighter J-11A/B fighter. Allegedly, stealth fighters J-10C design is very unique, and had also J-20 technology used by different, the casing surface can make the radar waves into the body, by the machine components in the absorption and consumption of radar wave, so that it can not be reflected back.

Although this result still J-10C compare F-22A RCS 0.07 square meters is much higher, J-10C has new digital integrated avionics system, also installed active phased array radar is very advanced, so it has long detection distance and anti strong anti-interference ability, and can be carried with remote air-to-air missile, achieved the international 4 generation semi or 4+++ generation fighter standard. It can be said, compared with the other models of the J-10 series, the performance of the J-10C has been improved significantly.





CCTV reported that the J-10C has a special ability to resist stealth

J-10C equipped with active phased array radar, the information is currently very little information, but it should be significantly beyond the J-10B radar, and the use of airborne J-20 radar technology in the same category.





J-10C test with the PL-10 missile

J-10C equip with PL-9C or PL-10C air-to-air missile, this missile adopts air before the canard aerodynamic shape of the traditional, multi-element infrared seeker adopts programmable digital processor, using digital technology to improve the tracking ability of target recognition ability, which has a good anti background interference and artificial interference, but also can change the software program to deal with the infrared the emergence of new sources of interference, but also has the ability to maneuver up to 40G, so that the PL-9C has omni-directional attack ability is excellent.

Then with the use of the J-10C HMS, which will give the machine a deadly attack, so the Russian military experts judged that J-10C speed, acceleration and maneuverability can be comparable with the F-35B/C, but much better than any of the aircraft carrier aircraft in service with the United States such as F/A-18E/F, F-15E/F and F-16C/D,
even some of the more than in the development of models such as F-15SE has a unique place.
.

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## Deino

Imo a not reliable report ... Neither does the first image show a conformal tank nor have we ever seen any on a J-10.


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## grey boy 2

Now the J-10A, B has been deployed at the North East area of China, the whole Korean peninsula is pretty much within striking distance (J-10A\B已部署在东北，作战范围可覆盖朝鲜半岛大部)
必要时可以携带精确制导武器，摧毁朝鲜核试验场和地下核工厂，保护东北环境安全！

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> They said its new J-10B or C?




Indeed an impressive shot of that bird, but IMO the cn looks like 201 so it is most likely an old image.


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## Stuttgart001

Deino said:


> Imo a not reliable report ... Neither does the first image show a conformal tank nor have we ever seen any on a J-10.


The pic leaked out in the internet actually is way behind the deployment.
China has strictly security system in the millitary institution.

I used to work at state-run aerospace institution for a couple of years. 
Although i didn't engage in the J-10 project, in my experience, it's normal that J-10 would has a comformal tank, cause when China make up its design, the latest US design is the aim to catch up with. In one word, China is trying his best to persue what the US owe, meanwhile developing his own asymmetric warfare tech.
To be honest, these things we saw right now was layout a dozent years ago.


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## Deino

Stuttgart001 said:


> The pic leaked out in the internet actually is way behind the deployment.
> China has strictly security system in the millitary institution.
> 
> I used to work at state-run aerospace institution for a couple of years.
> I have to say these scientists and techinians and engineers are the ridgepole of China.
> They sacrifice too much.
> I gave up a relationship with a girl who has foreign descent due to security system.




So You want to say this report - IMO still unreliable and false from an unknown source (IMO most likely a Russian one) - is correct and only due to China's strict security system we haven't seen a CFT on a J-10B/C ?


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## Stuttgart001

Deino said:


> So You want to say this report - IMO still unreliable and false from an unknown source (IMO most likely a Russian one) - is correct and only due to China's strict security system we haven't seen a CFT on a J-10B/C ?


Sorry, I am not engaged in the J-10 project ,so i can not give you the answer.
But in my experience, the aim of China is US.
If US fighter use a CFT which means it really matters, then China would do it either.
China is really the biggest fan of US, cause US army has the most experience of combat.


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## Deino

O.k. !


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## Grandy

Deino said:


> Imo a not reliable report ... Neither does the first image show a conformal tank nor have we ever seen any on a J-10.




Conformal tank in J-10C look like this:





Ground crew handling the *Conformal fuel tanks* (CFT) of an F-15E





F-15E fitted with conformal fuel tanks under the wing roots.





_Conformal fuel tanks have often look like drop tanks_, different is they cannot be discarded (drop/release) in flight, because they are plumbed into the aircraft and so can only be removed on the ground. _wikipedia_
.

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## Deino

Grandy said:


> Conformal tank in J-10C look like this:
> 
> .



Never ever ! how do you put such a CFT under a J-10 when there us simply no space under the wings?

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## grey boy 2

J-10B

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## Deino

Do You mean this post seriously !??? These are no CFT even more since this is a faked or modified Wiki-report since it misses the main issue: being conformal !



> *Conformal fuel tanks* (CFTs) are additional fuel tanks fitted closely to the profile of an aircraft that extend either the range or "time on station" of the aircraft. CFTs have a reduced aerodynamic penalty compared to external drop tanks, and do not significantly increase an aircraft's radar cross-section. Another advantage of CFTs provide is that they do not occupy ordnance hardpoints like drop tanks, allowing the aircraft to carry its full payload.






Grandy said:


> Conformal tank in J-10C look like this:
> View attachment 405009
> 
> _Conformal fuel tanks have often look like drop tanks_, different is they cannot be discarded (drop/release) in flight, because they are plumbed into the aircraft and so can only be removed on the ground. _wikipedia_.



In contrast to Your quote, the original Wiki-part is correct: via: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_fuel_tank



> Conformal fuel tanks have the disadvantage that, unlike drop tanks, they cannot be discarded in flight, because they are plumbed into the aircraft and so can only be removed on the ground. As a result, they will impose a slight drag-penalty and minor weight gain on the aircraft even when the tanks are empty, without any benefit. They can also impose slight g-load limits, although not always an absolute issue, the CFTs on the F-15E actually allow the same maneuverability without g-limitations.



As such I'm not sure which idiot edited the Wiki-text and tried to show us an ordinary drop tank as being a CFT ?!

Deino

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## BetterPakistan

grey boy 2 said:


> J-10B



Hey

I couldn't find the exact specifications of J-10b. Can you enlist here?


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## Deino

Another day ... another Brigade !


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/877183238422376448

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## grey boy 2

J-10 C

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## Avicenna

What a beautiful bird!

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## cirr



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## Taimur Khurram

PAF can you please just buy these things already? A nice 72 of them would be good.

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## 帅的一匹

Grandy said:


> Conformal tank in J-10C look like this:
> 
> View attachment 404775
> 
> Ground crew handling the *Conformal fuel tanks* (CFT) of an F-15E
> 
> View attachment 404773
> 
> F-15E fitted with conformal fuel tanks under the wing roots.
> 
> View attachment 405009
> 
> _Conformal fuel tanks have often look like drop tanks_, different is they cannot be discarded (drop/release) in flight, because they are plumbed into the aircraft and so can only be removed on the ground. _wikipedia_
> .


If there is a CFT, it will be something like F16 BLK60.


----------



## grey boy 2

J-10B (0125, 0109) 








Some more nice pictures of J-10B

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## Super Falcon

J 10 is capable jet don't know why PAF not buying

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-10B (0125, 0109) ... Some more nice pictures of J-10B
> ...




Leaving or preparing to leave for Aviadarts !



grey boy 2 said:


> Some more nice pictures of J-10B



Look at the pilot's glove: the now former 21st Division's badge !


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## masud

Can,t wait to see them in BAF colours.............................

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## grey boy 2

J-10B will be participate in the "Aviadarts" event which will be staged in airports in Changchun from 7/29 to 8/12 2017

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## JSCh



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## onebyone

Behold! China’s homegrown J-10B fighter jets is to compete in the upcoming International Army Games






China to hold two competitions of 2017 International Army Games

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## masud

some say it look like F-16 and others say it look like Euro fighter, but i say it look like it,s own. And that is called J-10.

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## grey boy 2

J-10C

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## IblinI

grey boy 2 said:


> J-10C


Beauty,can't wait for the D variant.

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## Avicenna

grey boy 2 said:


> J-10C



Looks like a predator swooping in from the dark gray sky.

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## grey boy 2

A nice picture of J-10B (credits to angadow)

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

@ChineseTiger1986 @grey boy 2 @wanglaokan @cnleio my friends, J10 has come long way... if you remember those early birds...and now J10B and J10C.... one can only stand in wonder.... 

However, I would really like see/read more about J10D... if you could find more info about its development status and direction it is going then... we would have a great discussion.

I remember how it was with J20...and those early CGIs.... Looking forward to read more about D... even if its about CGIs and speculations... from the last decade plus we have seen that Chinese CGIs have a habbit of becoming true more often than not...

I won't be able to contribute anything technical...as I am not a technical person...

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## m52k85

When will the Chinese start gluing their aircraft, those rivets look awful, just look at the Typhoon and Rafale as a comparison. No place for the weight of rivets on modern planes.


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## 帅的一匹

m52k85 said:


> When will the Chinese start gluing their aircraft, those rivets look awful, just look at the Typhoon and Rafale as a comparison. No place for the weight of rivets on modern planes.


----------



## Han Patriot

wanglaokan said:


>


I think it has something to do with cost. Anybody want to add in?


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## Beast

Han Patriot said:


> I think it has something to do with cost. Anybody want to add in?


Nothing... I see EuroTyphoon and J-10C in terms of finishing has not much different.











You really believe in that new recruit comment?

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## 帅的一匹

If you zoom in the picture of Typhoon, you can see the rivet.

And I think he is a false flagged.

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## grey boy 2

wanglaokan said:


> If you zoom in the picture of Typhoon, you can see the rivet.
> 
> And I think he is a false flagged.


A known one, whenever you zoom in, no plane looks good

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## Han Patriot

i think the nicest plane surface I seen is J-20

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## gambit

m52k85 said:


> When will the Chinese start gluing their aircraft, those rivets look awful, just look at the Typhoon and Rafale as a comparison. No place for the weight of rivets on modern planes.


Rivets make it easier to remove panels for maintenance access.

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## sinait

The Z-10 with its rivets looks real nice and deadly.
Fantastic finishing.
.

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## 帅的一匹

gambit said:


> he recommend to use glue.


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## IblinI

m52k85 said:


> When will the Chinese start gluing their aircraft, those rivets look awful, just look at the Typhoon and Rafale as a comparison. No place for the weight of rivets on modern planes.

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## gambit

wanglaokan said:


> he recommend to use glue.


Here is an example of a panel from an airliner...






Each fastener has a specific torque value. Generally speaking, a panel will have all of its fasteners have the same torque, but there will be a panel that will have different fastener sizes with different torque values. Adhesives do not have this level of physical security.

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## Deino

... but only too much crumbled

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## Deino

20813 ... the "2" seems photoshopped ! Any info on what unit this bird is from? 10th Bomber Division is unlikely.
Another possibility could be 70813, what would be 90th Brigade, Dalian Base replacing a Q-5-regiment at Wafangdian ... possible !

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## Deino

Deino said:


> 20813 ... the "2" seems photoshopped ! Any info on what unit this bird is from? 10th Bomber Division is unlikely.
> Another possibility could be 70813, what would be 90th Brigade, Dalian Base replacing a Q-5-regiment at Wafangdian ... possible !
> 
> View attachment 408415





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/882513468942942213


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## Zarvan

Deino said:


> 20813 ... the "2" seems photoshopped ! Any info on what unit this bird is from? 10th Bomber Division is unlikely.
> Another possibility could be 70813, what would be 90th Brigade, Dalian Base replacing a Q-5-regiment at Wafangdian ... possible !
> 
> View attachment 408415


It's time Pakistan seriously considers these monsters as replacement for Mirages

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## Deino

... and first generation F-16A a few years later.


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## Deino

An operational J-10C + PL-10 short-range AAM and the PL-12X / PL-15 (?) long-range AAM.

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## mustang

Zarvan said:


> It's time Pakistan seriously considers these monsters as replacement for Mirages



Pakistan will never get the J10 series aircraft. I was talking with a class mate of mine in PAF yesterday who works on Mirages and he says Pakistan *Tried Very Hard* to get the J10 aircraft but china was not interested in selling them. He said delaying tactics and what not was used.

He also told me that we will also not be getting J31 stealth aircraft either. Thats why Pakistan started its own program to make a stealth aircraft.

I then asked him about the Z10 heli's but he said he has no info on army stuff but looking at the above situation its more probable that china gave the three Z10 to Pakistan to evaluate and were not for sale which is why Pakistan went to the Turks. I have some friends in Army Aviation and will confirm with them.

I used to come regularly to the forum and check out the pictures of J10 and wonder why the hell Pakistan didn't get this aircraft and now I know. Won't be looking at this Baby anymore and saying Insh Allah.

Regards

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## Stuttgart001

mustang said:


> Pakistan will never get the J10 series aircraft. I was talking with a class mate of mine in PAF yesterday who works on Mirages and he says Pakistan *Tried Very Hard* to get the J10 aircraft but china was not interested in selling them. He said delaying tactics and what not was used.
> 
> He also told me that we will also not be getting J31 stealth aircraft either. Thats why Pakistan started its own program to make a stealth aircraft.
> 
> I then asked him about the Z10 heli's but he said he has no info on army stuff but looking at the above situation its more probable that china gave the three Z10 to Pakistan to evaluate and were not for sale which is why Pakistan went to the Turks. I have some friends in Army Aviation and will confirm with them.
> 
> I used to come regularly to the forum and check out the pictures of J10 and wonder why the hell Pakistan didn't get this aircraft and now I know. Won't be looking at this Baby anymore and saying Insh Allah.
> 
> Regards


I do not believe this rumour. China and Pakistan used to talk about the J-10 a few years ago. If it is not for sale, why China even talked about it with Pakistan.
As for J-31, it aimed at the export market in the first place. As for now, PLAAF has betted on J-20. I can not firgure out any reason why Paskitan could not get J-31 in the future ,if Pakistan wanted .

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## mustang

Stuttgart001 said:


> I do not believe this rumour. China and Pakistan used to talk about the J-10 a few years ago. If it is not for sale, why China even talked about it with Pakistan.
> As for J-31, it aimed at the export market in the first place. As for now, PLAAF has betted on J-20. I can not firgure out any reason why Paskitan could not get J-31 in the future ,if Pakistan wanted .



I used to believe in these rumors and it was Pakistan who went to China regarding the J10. Trust me when I tell you till yesterday I also though that Pakistan would get these Jets, but we are *NOT*. If we were getting the J10 then we would have received it ages ago. My mate told me there is next to zero chance to getting the J10 and the J31. 

Only the J17 is classified as Export Plane. I would love to see this jet in Pak colors but it will Not happen.


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## 3jiL

Deino said:


> An operational J-10C + PL-10 short-range AAM and the PL-12X / PL-15 (?) long-range AAM.
> 
> View attachment 410993


Great! PL-15 AAM
Now it's Time for "J-10D With CFT"


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## BATMAN

Zarvan said:


> It's time Pakistan seriously considers these monsters as replacement for Mirages



Only... if PAF turn mad like IAF. That time has not arrived yet.


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## Deino

*Guys ... not sure what happened this afternoon, but how You managed to go so far off from the J-10C, thru several off-topic posts and finally war-mongering !!! I'm shocked ! 

Calm down and take a deep breath ... all involved. *

Deino

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## Avicenna

mustang said:


> I used to believe in these rumors and it was Pakistan who went to China regarding the J10. Trust me when I tell you till yesterday I also though that Pakistan would get these Jets, but we are *NOT*. If we were getting the J10 then we would have received it ages ago. My mate told me there is next to zero chance to getting the J10 and the J31.
> 
> Only the J17 is classified as Export Plane. I would love to see this jet in Pak colors but it will Not happen.



That doesnt make sense. The J-10A is being marketed for export as the FC-20 according to Hui Tong. Why wouldnt Pakistan, a strong Chinese ally have been able to buy it?



Deino said:


> An operational J-10C + PL-10 short-range AAM and the PL-12X / PL-15 (?) long-range AAM.
> 
> View attachment 410993



What an absolute beauty!!!!


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## princefaisal

Its time to induct PL-10 short-range AAM and the PL-12X / PL-15 in PAF.


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## Deino

Another even better image ... But again with psed serials.

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## Avicenna

Those AAMs look fierce.


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## TaimiKhan

Deino said:


> Another even better image ... But again with psed serials.
> 
> View attachment 411388


Deino, what the new version if pl12 named ? Any specs abt it. 

Sent from my HTC One X9 dual sim using Defence.pk mobile app


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## Mughal-Prince

TaimiKhan said:


> Deino, what the new version if pl12 named ? Any specs abt it.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One X9 dual sim using Defence.pk mobile app



Sir jee Salams. HTC One chalnay kaisa set hai I mean response aur batt timing ??

On topic : Sir Jee kindly follow @mustang in this very thread and let us know if you can regarding what he's saying about J-10 acquirement.


----------



## TaimiKhan

Mughal-Prince said:


> Sir jee Salams. HTC One chalnay kaisa set hai I mean response aur batt timing ??
> 
> On topic : Sir Jee kindly follow @mustang in this very thread and let us know if you can regarding what he's saying about J-10 acquirement.


Set is good. Speed wise and features wise. Battery lasts a day and more if not heavy use, otherwise jaldi khatam hoo jata hai. But major prb is selfie camera is not good. Very poor result although front camera is good. Check other options too. 

On topic, what is mustang saying ? Any specific post ??

Sent from my HTC One X9 dual sim using Defence.pk mobile app


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## The SC

Deino said:


> An operational J-10C + PL-10 short-range AAM and the PL-12X / PL-15 (?) long-range AAM.
> 
> View attachment 410993

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## ZeEa5KPul

That's a pretty sweet upgrade. The PL-8 and PL-12 look so rinky-dink beside the PL-10 and PL-15.

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## 帅的一匹

ZeEa5KPul said:


> That's a pretty sweet upgrade. The PL-8 and PL-12 look so rinky-dink beside the PL-10 and PL-15.


I think PAF will induct PL15?

It's good deal.

What about PL21 the ramjet super long range AAM?


----------



## The SC

ZeEa5KPul said:


> That's a pretty sweet upgrade. The PL-8 and PL-12 look so rinky-dink beside the PL-10 and PL-15.


The 2 tandems are operational..


----------



## Deino

Two interesting news....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/886544120784629760

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/886607033964867584

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## Han Patriot

Deino said:


> Two interesting news....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/886544120784629760
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/886607033964867584


Some Indian guy was telling me KJ-500 won't be deployed in Tibet cause it can't fly at that altitude. =)

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## yusheng

man vs j10b,
100 meter, who will win,





first, he ran with JL9, he won









then, he ran with J10b, J10 won

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## Mughal-Prince

TaimiKhan said:


> On topic, what is mustang saying ? Any specific post ??



https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chen...t-news-discussions.3218/page-571#post-9660905


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## Han Patriot

You guys what to know the real maneuverability of J-10, See this video
http://news.cctv.com/2017/07/28/ARTIZ9NQVF552fGywylok7sA170728.shtml

0:12 - 0:15

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## Deino

Finally confirmed: J-10C, 74327, 131 Brigade.

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## Han Patriot

Deino said:


> Finally confirmed: J-10C, 74327, 131 Brigade.
> 
> View attachment 415014


That's an obvious AESA and the colors and marking meant it is operational.


----------



## Deino

Han Warrior said:


> That's an obvious AESA and the colors and marking meant it is operational.



Pardon, but how can You identify an AESA by the colour of the radome and even more differ it to a PESA?

Tha radome's colour is not different to the J-10B's radome.


----------



## Han Patriot

Deino said:


> Pardon, but how can You identify an AESA by the colour of the radome and even more differ it to a PESA?
> 
> Tha radome's colour is not different to the J-10B's radome.


Your opinion is that it's PESA? If we have AESA why use PESA? Colors and marking meant the plane is operational. Not sure about the radars tho.


----------



## !eon

mustang said:


> Pakistan will never get the J10 series aircraft. I was talking with a class mate of mine in PAF yesterday who works on Mirages and he says *Pakistan Tried Very Hard to get the J10 aircraft but china was not interested in selling them. He said delaying tactics and what not was used.*
> 
> He also told me that we will also not be getting J31 stealth aircraft either. Thats why Pakistan started its own program to make a stealth aircraft.
> 
> Regards


@MastanKhan 

As far I know refusal always came from Pakistani side

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## Deino

Han Warrior said:


> Your opinion is that it's PESA? If we have AESA why use PESA? Colors and marking meant the plane is operational. Not sure about the radars tho.



No I only asked you for an explanation why you can be sure it is an AESA only by the colour of the radome. Nothing more.


----------



## 星海军事



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## Beast

星海军事 said:


>


PL-10 missile looks quite big. The designer of these missile claim it can hit target more than 50km. Sound feasible.

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## Akasa

星海军事 said:


>



I'm surprised the IL-78 didn't make an appearance at this show.

Also, when can we expect to see the prototype of the J-10D?


----------



## MastanKhan

!eon said:


> @MastanKhan
> 
> As far I know refusal always came from Pakistani side



Hi,

There is already a signed contract during Gen Musharaff's govt and china almost 10 years ago---.



mustang said:


> Pakistan will never get the J10 series aircraft. I was talking with a class mate of mine in PAF yesterday who works on Mirages and he says Pakistan *Tried Very Hard* to get the J10 aircraft but china was not interested in selling them. He said delaying tactics and what not was used.
> 
> He also told me that we will also not be getting J31 stealth aircraft either. Thats why Pakistan started its own program to make a stealth aircraft.
> 
> I then asked him about the Z10 heli's but he said he has no info on army stuff but looking at the above situation its more probable that china gave the three Z10 to Pakistan to evaluate and were not for sale which is why Pakistan went to the Turks. I have some friends in Army Aviation and will confirm with them.
> 
> I used to come regularly to the forum and check out the pictures of J10 and wonder why the hell Pakistan didn't get this aircraft and now I know. Won't be looking at this Baby anymore and saying Insh Allah.
> 
> Regards



Hi,

Your boy is ill informed---.

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## Beast

SinoSoldier said:


> I'm surprised the IL-78 didn't make an appearance at this show.
> 
> Also, when can we expect to see the prototype of the J-10D?


IL-78 is not domestic produced plane. So it cant make it to the show. If you noticed. All military hardware are domestic China produced. The only foreign hardware appear is the Italian IVECO truck which has mounted domestic produced electronic warfare equipment.


----------



## mustang

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is already a signed contract during Gen Musharaff's govt and china almost 10 years ago---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Your boy is ill informed---.



Yet even after 10 years there hasn't been a peen regarding these birds. Not from China's side and neither from PAF's side.

If my boy is ill informed then please ask any serving PAF's high ranking officer if there is any chance of us getting these babies. I really really really want the J-10's in PAF colors but its not happening.

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## Han Patriot

Beast said:


> IL-78 is not domestic produced plane. So it cant make it to the show. If you noticed. All military hardware are domestic China produced. The only foreign hardware appear is the Italian IVECO truck which has mounted domestic produced electronic warfare equipment.


IVECOs are made in China too, they have a JV factory in China. Legacy of the 80s.


----------



## Beast

Han Warrior said:


> IVECOs are made in China too, they have a JV factory in China.


Yes, I know with SAIC but its still a foreign brand but it just a truck. So not a big deal.


----------



## MastanKhan

mustang said:


> Yet even after 10 years there hasn't been a peen regarding these birds. Not from China's side and neither from PAF's side.
> 
> If my boy is ill informed then please ask any serving PAF's high ranking officer if there is any chance of us getting these babies. I really really really want the J-10's in PAF colors but its not happening.



Hi,

The Paf's acm and am's do not want it---because they would not get any fringe benefits because Mushy signed the contract.

F 16's had future jobs and supplier contract for the paf officers.

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## !eon

mustang said:


> Yet even after 10 years there hasn't been a peen regarding these birds. Not from China's side and neither from PAF's side.
> 
> If my boy is ill informed then please ask any serving PAF's high ranking officer if there is any chance of us getting these babies. I really really really want the J-10's in PAF colors but its not happening.


Why would China sign a contract if j10 was not a aavilable to Pakistan?
Pakistanis are best at doing corruption and then hiding it

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## 帅的一匹



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## Deino

J-10AS at Aviadarts: no. 61235 = 2nd Brigade ... so the former 1st Division, 2nd Regiment at Chifeng is now also a Brigade.

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## 帅的一匹

When will J10 as CFT?


----------



## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

I am chinese and I do love China and Pakistan,with all due respect but seriouly,could china change its planes' painting style,it is really ugly,good plane but ugly painting style.Not Cool!

J 10 with US F16 painting model


----------



## Deino

adam ziquan wang said:


> I am chinese and I do love China and Pakistan,with all due respect but seriouly,could china change its planes' painting style,it is really ugly,good plane but ugly painting style.Not Cool!
> 
> J 10 with US F16 painting model




Not sure if that would be better !

To admit the current scheme is o.k. but I would recommend far more tail arts as shown on this former 44th Division/131st Regiment J-10A:





Regrettable on their new J-10C - now 131st Brigade - the Eagle is missing again.


----------



## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

Deino said:


> Not sure if that would be better !
> 
> To admit the current scheme is o.k. but I would recommend far more tail arts as shown on this former 44th Division/131st Regiment J-10A:
> View attachment 417122
> 
> 
> Regrettable on their new J-10C - now 131st Brigade - the Eagle is missing again.




The painting color is not cool and too gay feeling,military fighter should be tough and looks tough,Chinese PLA should impress people with their force and action not their words!!!!!

China leaders do not understand,whatever chinese says,western country just do not believe it and do not want to believe it and take China as Threat uncondtionnally.So even China do want to rise peacefully US and NATO just do not believe it and won't change their mind to contain china,so why bother!!!

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## Deino

adam ziquan wang said:


> The painting color is not cool and too gay feeling,military fighter should be tough and looks tough,Chinese PLA should impress people with their force and action not their words!!!!!
> 
> China leaders do not understand,whatever chinese says,western country just do not believe it and do not want to believe it and take China as Threat uncondtionnally.So even China do want to rise peacefully US and NATO just do not believe it and won't change their mind to contain china,so why bother!!!




Pardon, but this is only a typical point of view by a fan-boy without tactical understanding.

First of all painting and colour scheme should effectively camouflage an aircraft; nothing more.

In that sense at least the PLAAF-leadership knows and understands quite well what's important.

Deino

PS: by the way how on earth do You think a plain grey colour scheme has a too much "gay feeling" is beyond my imagination.

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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

Deino said:


> Pardon, but this is only a typical point of view by a fan-boy without tactical understanding.
> 
> First of all painting and colour scheme should effectively camouflage an aircraft; nothing more.
> 
> In that sense at least the PLAAF-leadership knows and understands quite well what's important.
> 
> Deino
> 
> PS: by the way how on earth do You think a plain grey colour scheme has a too much "gay feeling" is beyond my imagination.




IF so State Aircraft Factory Shanghai Y-10 would be kept instead of cancled and give up market to Boeing and Airbus uncondtionnally.You think too high of those corrupt chinese officials.Maybe i think too low of them.hahaha.......


----------



## Deino

adam ziquan wang said:


> IF so State Aircraft Factory Shanghai Y-10 would be kept instead of cancled and give up market to Boeing and Airbus uncondtionnally.You think too high of those corrupt chinese officials.Maybe i think too low of them.hahaha.......




Can You explain what the hell the old Y-10 - an unsuccessful commercial airliner and its colour - or State Aircraft Factory Shanghai in competition with Airbus & Boeing has to do with the J-10's colour scheme ???

Are You on dope ? 

Pardon to say so, but this is now the third "strange" post from You within minutes, two of them were either removed, modified and You already got a warning for insults. 
Take care of Your behaviour; otherwise it will be only a brief visit here.

Deino


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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

whatever you say Pakistan bro..........................


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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

1:,Drugs are strictly banned in China if have 50 g heroin in China the penality will be your death so i am not on drugs at all;
2,so let me get it straight :no small talk on this website always related to J10 in this case?I tought people are free to talk wahtever they want if they do not use the F word you mentioned no?

You think chinese leader are clever and i think they are stupid so i am not allowed to say this??

Its their stupid other for giving up Y8 all humain ressources related have been abandoned,do you know how difficult it would be to reconstrcut humain ressources and RD systems for plane filed?This is definitedly related to J10 coz with the giving up of Y 10 all its RD reseachers have been abandoned,J10 should be put into service 10 years ahead ,coz of SHEN Tu,this stupid man who was in charing of Civial aviation system(From waht i can tell),China destroyed its own capacity of civial plane RD(civial plane,military palen the principle is the same).Even if the Y 10 is not successful,there is no need to abandon the entire RD department,this is like you cut your own hand!


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## Deino

adam ziquan wang said:


> ...
> 
> Its their stupid other for giving up Y8 all humain ressources related have been abandoned,do you know how difficult it would be to reconstrcut humain ressources and RD systems for plane filed?This is definitedly related to J10 coz with the giving up of Y 10 all its RD reseachers have been abandoned,J10 should be put into service 10 years ahead ,coz of SHEN Tu,this stupid man who was in charing of Civial aviation system(From waht i can tell),China destroyed its own capacity of civial plane RD(civial plane,military palen the principle is the same).Even if the Y 10 is not successful,there is no need to abandon the entire RD department,this is like you cut your own hand!




You might be right but during these politically more than unstable times many mistakes and a lot of wrong decisions were made. Anyway, You cannot turn back the time and as such You can look back in sorrow and complain or look ahead - what IMO most Chinese enterprises do perfectly; that's why I'm so much fascinated ! - on what's next.

What Your complaint in anyway have to do with an maybe boring colour scheme is still beyond my understandings.

Deino


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## Brainsucker

adam ziquan wang said:


> 1:,Drugs are strictly banned in China if have 50 g heroin in China the penality will be your death so i am not on drugs at all;
> 2,so let me get it straight :no small talk on this website always related to J10 in this case?I tought people are free to talk wahtever they want if they do not use the F word you mentioned no?
> 
> You think chinese leader are clever and i think they are stupid so i am not allowed to say this??
> 
> Its their stupid other for giving up Y8 all humain ressources related have been abandoned,do you know how difficult it would be to reconstrcut humain ressources and RD systems for plane filed?This is definitedly related to J10 coz with the giving up of Y 10 all its RD reseachers have been abandoned,J10 should be put into service 10 years ahead ,coz of SHEN Tu,this stupid man who was in charing of Civial aviation system(From waht i can tell),China destroyed its own capacity of civial plane RD(civial plane,military palen the principle is the same).Even if the Y 10 is not successful,there is no need to abandon the entire RD department,this is like you cut your own hand!



Yes, there are a lot of idiots in the government. But not only in China. Even in US, India, Vietnam, Indonesia, and other countries. There are idiots everywhere. I'm sure there are also idiots in German Government, too. So you're not alone Adam.

The point is, which Idiot can improve their country more than the other idiots. So let's us back to topic.

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## Deino

Brainsucker said:


> Yes, there are a lot of idiots in the government. But not only in China. Even in US, India, Vietnam, Indonesia, and other countries. There are idiots everywhere. I'm sure there are also idiots in German Government, too. So you're not alone Adam.
> 
> The point is, which Idiot can improve their country more than the other idiots. So let's us back to topic.




AMEN on this ! 

And now indeed back to the J-10.

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## Deino

J-10B SEAD + YJ-91 ARM + K/RKL700A ECM + guidance pod

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## JSCh

MOre...

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## Deino

JSCh said:


> View attachment 417390



Thanks a lot !
What's that thing in the last image ?

And by the way, what display is this? A public display of the types involved at Aviadarts at Changchun or another event?


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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Thanks a lot !
> What's that thing in the last image ?
> 
> And by the way, what display is this? A public display of the types involved at Aviadarts at Changchun or another event?


Training guidance bomb

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## yusheng



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## Brainsucker

What is XL-XF91?


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## JSCh

Deino said:


> Thanks a lot !
> What's that thing in the last image ?
> 
> And by the way, what display is this? A public display of the types involved at Aviadarts at Changchun or another event?


The words on the thing say laser guided training round.
Pictures is from the Aviadarts event at Changchun.

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## Deino

JSCh said:


> The words on the thing say laser guided training round.
> Pictures is from the Aviadarts event at Changchun.




Interesting, but why then does this "thing" have no seeker ?


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## JSCh

Deino said:


> Interesting, but why then does this "thing" have no seeker ?


To be precise, the label said laser guided captive flight training bomb. No idea how it suppose to work or serve for training.

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## Deino

JSCh said:


> To be precise, the label said laser guided captive flight training bomb. No idea how it suppose to work or serve for training.
> 
> View attachment 417656
> 
> View attachment 417657
> 
> View attachment 417658​




Thanks a lot ! Very much appreciated.


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## siegecrossbow

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-08/17/c_136533722.htm



> BEIJING, Aug. 17 (Xinhua) -- Six aircraft of the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) air force arrived at an air base in Thailand Thursday for a joint training exercise with the Thai air force from Thursday to Sept. 3.
> 
> The training, the second of its kind, is expected to test their combat tactics and weaponry, and to improve their actual combat training, according to the PLA air force.
> 
> The first joint training of the two air forces took place in Thailand in November 2015.



Sending six J-10As from Yunnan.


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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-08/17/c_136533722.htm
> 
> Sending six J-10As from Yunnan.



That's strange ... these are still from the 44th Division 131st Regiment, which just became a Brigade and converted to J-10C now operates the J-10A. So IMO this image is only a placeholder-image?

I think we need to wait if they indeed sent J-10A or J-10C if it is from the 131st Brigade.
Deino


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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> That's strange ... these are still from the 44th Division 131st Regiment, which just became a Brigade and converted to J-10C now operates the J-10A. So IMO this image is only a placeholder-image?
> 
> I think we need to wait if they indeed sent J-10A or J-10C if it is from the 131st Brigade.
> Deino



No point in sending J-10C unless they want to sell them.


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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> No point in sending J-10C unless they want to sell them.




My surprise what in meant in this regard: I was only surprised - or in fact I'm questioning - since the image of J-10As posted does not fit to the aircraft this unit currently flies. So either it was just a random image used to show they sent 6 J-10A ... but then from another unit.
Or they are in fact from the same unit, but then they will be J-10C.

Deino



Any info on from what unit (Brigade or Regiment) they are since You rarely see unit badges ? ... and this one is new to me.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/898817876731101184

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## IblinI

Some new pics of J10C.


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## Deino

YuChen said:


> Some new pics of J10C.




And with the same fancy "Fox" emblem on the intake we saw some time ago under a J-11As cockpit. Clearly only for the new flm but anyway nice ...

By the way, any latest news on the current production lot? I still have 2-54 and -59 (?) as the highest numbers from late 2016.

Deino


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## Avicenna

@Deino; is there any word of the J-10D development? CFT; possible stealth features?


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## Deino

Avicenna said:


> @Deino; is there any word of the J-10D development? CFT; possible stealth features?




Regrettably I know nothing more than was posted before ...

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Regrettably I know nothing more than was posted before ...


Why talk about the J-10D before the J-10C is even finish3d.


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## Avicenna

Isn't J-10C in service already?


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## Figaro

Avicenna said:


> Isn't J-10C in service already?


But they have limited production. Only a couple have been inducted.

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## IblinI

Figaro said:


> Why talk about the J-10D before the J-10C is even finish3d.


I don't have anything new but you don't have to wait until everything is finished.

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## ozranger

Amazing J-10C flying low through a valley.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/899909991171334144

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/900735998132240384

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## Deino

Just another idea! 

So far all J-10B and J-10C delivered are operational within the PLAAF only, but given the fact that the PLANAF already operates one J-10AH-unit and there are still older types (aka J-8H and F) to replace, how likely is it that the J-10C could be introduced as well??

Or will the PLANAF even more prefer twin-engined and longer-range-capable fighters and the J-16 will be procured instead, maybe even transferring the J-10AHs to the PLAAF?

Deino

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## grey boy 2

J-10C with "YJ-91 anti-radiation missiles"

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## Brainsucker

Deino said:


> Just another idea!
> 
> So far all J-10B and J-10C delivered are operational within the PLAAF only, but given the fact that the PLANAF already operates one J-10AH-unit and there are still older types (aka J-8H and F) to replace, how likely is it that the J-10C could be introduced as well??
> 
> Or will the PLANAF even more prefer twin-engined and longer-range-capable fighters and the J-16 will be procured instead, maybe even transferring the J-10AHs to the PLAAF?
> 
> Deino



What is the J-10AH?


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## Daniel808

Brainsucker said:


> What is the J-10AH?



Chengdu J-10A Naval variant.

Maybe we will see J-10CH too in the near future, but I think PLAN prioritize their Aircraft carrier construction and Shenyang J-15 production for their near future, including AWACS and UCAV for their future AC (Type 002 CV)

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## Deino

Daniel808 said:


> Chengdu J-10A Naval variant.
> 
> Maybe we will see J-10CH too in the near future, but I think PLAN prioritize their Aircraft carrier construction and Shenyang J-15 production for their near future, including AWACS and UCAV for their future AC (Type 002 CV)




Indeed, but regardless this focus on carrier-aviation I don't think the PLAAF will "phase out all its land based fighter models and convert its fighter regiments into carrier capable units with carrier capable planes" at least anytime soon.

Also I don't think that regular Air Divisions will be converted until at least 2-3 carriers are operational.

So in summary I think they will "soon" replace their last J-8H/F and maybe as a next step the JH-7s.

IMO a most likely option - as others already pointed - these will all be replaced with J-16s which in the end will result in an all-Flanker fleet. Consequently the J-10AHs could be transferred to the PLAAF.

Or - if the J-10 is not replaced - the J-10C could be a successor for the J-8 and the J-16 for the JH-7 (at least the Batch 01 models).

Deino

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## Deino

Here a better version of the latest J-20 image spotted at CAC from July ...

I'm a bit surprised that we don't see as many J-10s as before ... could be coincidence but anyway surprising.

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/902764133967429636
Even if most serials are again deleted tit is clearly visible in one image showing them from the 130. Brigade - aka ex. 130. Regiment, 44th Division - which must have just recently converted from the J-7H to the J-10A when the 131st Brigade got the latest J-10C.

Deino


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## Yerusalem 4880 Kms

Deino said:


> Just another idea!
> 
> So far all J-10B and J-10C delivered are operational within the PLAAF only, but given the fact that the PLANAF already operates one J-10AH-unit and there are still older types (aka J-8H and F) to replace, how likely is it that the J-10C could be introduced as well??
> 
> Or will the PLANAF even more prefer twin-engined and longer-range-capable fighters and the J-16 will be procured instead, maybe even transferring the J-10AHs to the PLAAF?
> 
> Deino


Why PAF not inducted this jet? you have any idea?


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## Brainsucker

Btw, @Deino which has bigger number of Aircraft? A PLAAF Regiment, or A PLAAF Brigade? I assume it's Brigade, but I don't know. Maybe Brigade is a modernized Division?


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## Deino

Brainsucker said:


> Btw, @Deino which has bigger number of Aircraft? A PLAAF Regiment, or A PLAAF Brigade? I assume it's Brigade, but I don't know. Maybe Brigade is a modernized Division?




No, as I explained (or at least tried to) in this post https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chinese-air-force-plaaf-news-discussions.84214/page-111#post-9803183

"First of all we need to differ between an Air Base and a Base. At first sight it looks as if Regiments were replaced simply by Brigades (usually just reusing their original numbers) and Divisions are replaced by Bases.
However the difference is most of all related to its leader grade: Each Base is directly subordinate to the relevant Theater Command Air Force HQ, which is a theater command deputy leader grade organization.
As such, each of the Bases has command overall all PLAAF air brigades (division deputy leader grade), SAMs, AAA, and radar units in their immediate AOR."

And otherwise You are probably correct, it seems as if a Brigade has (or will have) a few aircraft more than a former Regiment, but by now I don't have any hard facts.

Hope this helps a bit.
Deino

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## grey boy 2

J-10C

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## 帅的一匹



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## Figaro

J-10C with YJ-12's

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## grey boy 2

Figaro said:


> J-10C with YJ-12's


Awesome picture, thanks for sharing bro

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## Figaro

grey boy 2 said:


> Awesome picture, thanks for sharing bro


No problema. How do I watch Skyhunter btw when it releases?

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## grey boy 2

Figaro said:


> No problema. How do I watch Skyhunter btw when it releases?


I really have no clue, to be honest, i've only heard of this movie here on PDF, living in texas made people lost in touch with the world LOL

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## Figaro

grey boy 2 said:


> I really have no clue, to be honest, i've only heard of this movie here on PDF, living in texas made people lost in touch with the world LOL


Same. I live in Texas as well (Dallas). Though not Chinese, I really do enjoy PLA watching and have been interested in the upcoming movie. They're going to show J-16, J-10C, and J-20's

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## grey boy 2

Figaro said:


> Same. I live in Texas as well (Dallas). Though not Chinese, I really do enjoy PLA watching and have been interested in the upcoming movie. They're going to show J-16, J-10C, and J-20's


Me, Houston

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## Akasa

Figaro said:


> Same. I live in Texas as well (Dallas). Though not Chinese, I really do enjoy PLA watching and have been interested in the upcoming movie. They're going to show J-16, J-10C, and J-20's





grey boy 2 said:


> Me, Houston



Hope you folks are safe and sound (and not suffering from any property damage!) during Harvey. 

Stay strong.

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## Deino

Figaro said:


> J-10C with YJ-12's



What a shot ... But it is not a YJ-12, but a YJ-91 ARM.

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> What a shot ... But it is not a YJ-12, but a YJ-91 ARM.


Chinese craftsman ship has definitely increased from the old J-10A (which had a lot of those ugly rivets). The J-10C looks better than the Rafael or Typhoon I daresay ...

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## samsara

grey boy 2 said:


> Me, Houston


Wow, I hope you're safe! According to the media, Houston is hit the worst by the Hurricane Harvey, and read that some part of Texas are Q'ing the gas.



Figaro said:


> No problema. How do I watch Skyhunter btw when it releases?


The movie: Sky Hunter (空天猎) will be released in China at the end of this September.

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## grey boy 2

samsara said:


> Wow, I hope you're safe! According to the media, Houston is hit the worst by the Hurricane Harvey, and read that some part of Texas are Q'ing the gas.
> 
> 
> The movie: Sky Hunter (空天猎) will be released in China at the end of this September.


I'm still alive and kicking LOL, thanks bro

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## monitor

* J-10C flies through valley *

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## Deino

Figaro said:


> J-10C with YJ-91's (edited)



Anyone - besides Huitong  - noticed the J-10C in the rear carries the new TG500 LGB and a targeting pod?

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## clarkgap

The angle of YJ-91s are not in keeping with others. May I learn the reason?



Figaro said:


> Same. I live in Texas as well (Dallas). Though not Chinese, I really do enjoy PLA watching and have been interested in the upcoming movie. They're going to show J-16, J-10C, and J-20's




Base on the ensemble cast and director, this might not be a good movie. If you want to watch the aircrafts, someone will update the related movie clips to Youtube in next year.

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## Tiqiu

Until the time the Chinese security staffs decide to declassify the J-10C, we will have to continue to work around with these type of just enough and not too much J-10C's shot about its engine. I believe what those bigshrimps believe that J-10c is using WS-10B, thus makes it different from J-10B.














grey boy 2 said:


> Me, Houston


Take care and be safe, mate.

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## MultaniGuy

Too bad Pakistan is not getting the J-10bs

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## Ultima Thule

Iqbal Ali said:


> Too bad Pakistan is not getting the J-10bs


ZARDARI eats J-10 funds and PAF will not buying any J-10 in future saying that it will bring nothing new capability as compare to our F-16

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## MultaniGuy

pakistanipower said:


> ZARDARI eats J-10 funds and PAF will not buying any J-10 in future saying that it will bring nothing new capability as compare to our F-16


Well we should get J-31s then

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## Ultima Thule

Iqbal Ali said:


> Well we should get J-31s then


not before 2022-2025 time-frame

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## MultaniGuy

pakistanipower said:


> not before 2022-2025 time-frame


Well the sooner the better!

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## Ultima Thule

Iqbal Ali said:


> Well the sooner the better!


 please stick to the topic

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## Zhu Rong Zheng Yang

monitor said:


> * J-10C flies through valley *




Many thanks brothers ( @grey boy 2 ,, @monitor ,, @ozranger ) for posting this wonderful J-10C terrain hugging Low flying combat prowess through hills and valley. ( _Not on a flat terrain_ )

There was a video a few pages back displaying the ( J-10C hardware Low Flying and Terrain Hugging performances on mountain ranges ) and ( the PLAAF pilot Low Flying Terrain Hugging skills ).

The J-10C must be flying Terrain Hugging on hills and valleys less than 50 meters above ground. It maybe hugging terrain flying as low as 20 meters in certain places.

Now, it is extremely unfortunate, those Hanjian advisers and decision maker in Beijing stop us from watching and witnessing the destruction and obliteration of ( _Shocked and Awed_ ) Indian IAF and Indian army equipments by the PLAAF drones up front then followed by these J-10C as punishment for Indian trespassing in PRC land for 3 months.

===

OTOH ... ...

_I heard that ONLY French Rafale can do terrain hugging low flying on the flat coastal region ?
what about French Rafale terrain hugging low flying on extremely much more difficult hills and valleys ( 10x more difficult than on the FLAT coastal region) ? 

Nada, Zero. I never seen a video of French Rafale do this kind terrain hugging low flying on 
extremely much more difficult hills and valleys. _

Btw, has anyone ever saw a video of terrain hugging performance of top fighter jets ( French Rafale, Euro Typhoon, Swedish Gripen, or any americese fighter jets F-16, F-15, F-18, or its king of the hill F-22 ) flying as low as these J-10C on _extremely much more difficult hills and valleys_ ??

Nada, Zero.
Please post their video in this thread if you can find one. 

@F-22Raptor

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## ozranger

Zhu Rong Zheng Yang said:


> Btw, has anyone ever saw a video of terrain hugging performance of top fighter jets ( French Rafael, Euro Typhoon, Swedish Gripen, or any americese fighter jets F-16, F-15, F-18, or king of the hill F-22 ) flying as low as these J-10C ??
> 
> Please post their video in this thread if you can find one.



There are quite a lot on YouTube, mostly taken in Mach Loop, and I am not sure if you are able to watch them from inside China. Basically all the planes in the videos are flying higher than the J-10C in Sky Hunter. But they include more types of aircraft like the tactical transporter C-130, etc. It would be interesting to see if PLAAF also trains their transporters Y-8, Y-9 that way.

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## Zhu Rong Zheng Yang

@ozranger

Presently, I am in South East Asia.
I have done a thorough search on YouTube.
I can not find those terrain hugging extremely Low flying on the hills and valley from ( Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen or F-16, F-5, or F-22 ) ?

Could you kindly please post the video links here ?

There was a PLAAF pilot standing being interviewed for his terrain hugging low flying performances. 
Are U saying that J-10C Low flying video is from the movie Sky Hunter ?

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## ozranger

Zhu Rong Zheng Yang said:


> @ozranger
> 
> Presently, I am in South East Asia.
> I have done a thorough search on YouTube.
> I can not find those terrain hugging extremely Low flying on the hills and valley from ( Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen or F-16, F-5, or F-22 ) ?
> 
> Could you kindly please post the video links here ?
> 
> There was a PLAAF pilot standing being interviewed for his terrain hugging low flying performances.
> Are U saying that J-10C Low flying video is from the movie Sky Hunter ?



https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=march+loop

Typically

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## Zhu Rong Zheng Yang

ozranger said:


> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=march+loop



Many thanks for the link and search keywords.

There is obvious and significant differences for the ( Terrain Hugging Sensors and Pilots ) between these NATO and americese jets fighter and pilots and the ( PLAAF jets fighter and pilots ).

The hills and valleys on Wales Coastal region are *smooth green terrain much easier for Terrain Hugging Sensors to process and the pilots eyes to cross check*. And, these NATO and americese jets fighter and pilots are flying much higher than 50 meters. My estimate is around *100 meters* high.

OTOH, ( PLAAF J-10C and pilots ) are terrain hugging and flying Lower than *50 meters* and flying low through very *Rough, Ragged, and Uneven Protruding* terrain.

It is definitely way much more difficult to process for the J-10C Terrain Hugging Sensors and the PLAAF pilots eyes to cross check the data.

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## grey boy 2

J-10C

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## Swezu

Sorry in advance if the question have answered before. Its my first time in the chinese section. How much does j10 b cost?

Does it have electronic warfare pod?


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## ozranger

Swezu said:


> Sorry in advance if the question have answered before. Its my first time in the chinese section. How much does j10 b cost?
> 
> Does it have electronic warfare pod?



It should be expensive as the avionics looks very modern, including an AESA radar.

The following photos show a J-10b equipped with an EW pod and an ASM data link pod.

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## Deino

... + the K/JDC01A targeting pod

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## ozranger

Deino said:


> ... + the K/JDC01A targeting pod
> 
> View attachment 423474
> View attachment 423475



For a single seater J-10 with those human-in-the-loop missiles, it must be very physically and even psychologically demanding for the pilot to handle targeting together with flight control at the same time.

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## Deino

ozranger said:


> For a single seater J-10 with those human-in-the-loop missiles, it must be very physically and even psychologically demanding for the pilot to handle targeting together with flight control at the same time.




Indeed and maybe therefore You rarely see the LGB together with the pod. Maybe one for target designation and the wingman is for dropping the bomb.

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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> Until the time the Chinese security staffs decide to declassify the J-10C, we will have to continue to work around with these type of just enough and not too much J-10C's shot about its engine. I believe what those bigshrimps believe that J-10c is using WS-10B, thus makes it different from J-10B.
> 
> View attachment 422648
> 
> .




Oh these fan boys !!!

Come on. If You use a blurred image and even more don't get Your markings correctly then You come to a conclusion that is only wrong.

Just look at the nozzles and how they look like ... nothing more to say.


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## Stephen Cohen

Deino said:


> Oh these fan boys !!!
> 
> Come on. If You use a blurred image and even more don't get Your markings correctly then You come to a conclusion that is only wrong.
> 
> Just look at the nozzles and how they look like ... nothing more to say.



Hi ; No disrespect to you but 
I just wanted to know why you are so fascinated by PLAAF


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## Deino

Stephen Cohen said:


> Hi ; No disrespect to you but
> I just wanted to know why you are so fascinated by PLAAF



Thanks and why do You think it should be disrespectful? 

Difficult to say, I was always fascinated on China; most of all its culture, its history and especially Chinese food but that virus stuck me I think when the first rumours appeared, China would build a new fighter during the 1980s which was said to be a Lavi-clone.

And when I saw the first clear image it was clear from the beginning it was not a clone. Maybe a related development - to no surprise - but it was much larger, had a different layout in details and uses not that tiny US-engine but a true monster (then), the AL-31F.
And while I then read all that BS about this ... I began to research, to collect and cross-check and my interest also in other cancelled projects grew larger and larger. 

And hey ... now here I am.

Maybe just to add a third point: IMO China has the chance - and I still hope the hope - to establish some sort of third way beside the Western-lead Capitalism and the old Eastern block Communism .... but time will tell esp. since managing or leading such a huge country with more than 1 Billion peoples is a completely different issue.

Deino

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## grey boy 2

J-10B

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-10B




Can anyone read the number ??? must be 67125 ... 61st Brigade.


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## grey boy 2

Deino said:


> Can anyone read the number ??? 67125 or 67175 ... strange???


I think i saw a clearer one somewhere, seems similar thats why i ignore it, let me see if i could locate it



Deino said:


> Can anyone read the number ??? must be 67125 ... 61st Brigade.


Lost track of it, found this instead

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## lmjiao

Deino said:


> Thanks and why do You think it should be disrespectful?
> 
> Difficult to say, I was always fascinated on China; most of all its culture, its history and especially Chinese food but that virus stuck me I think when the first rumours appeared, China would build a new fighter during the 1980s which was said to be a Lavi-clone.
> 
> And when I saw the first clear image it was clear from the beginning it was not a clone. Maybe a related development - to no surprise - but it was much larger, had a different layout in details and uses not that tiny US-engine but a true monster (then), the AL-31F.
> And while I then read all that BS about this ... I began to research, to collect and cross-check and my interest also in other cancelled projects grew larger and larger.
> 
> And hey ... now here I am.
> 
> Maybe just to add a third point: IMO China has the chance - and I still hope the hope - to establish some sort of third way beside the Western-lead Capitalism and the old Eastern block Communism .... but time will tell esp. since managing or leading such a huge country with more than 1 Billion peoples is a completely different issue.
> 
> Deino


Thank you sincerly from my heart.

China is looking for the third way, or she has to.

In the past 100 years, to make China strong and rich country, Chinese learned Capitalism and Communism from the western world. Right now, China is testing both separately or mixed in the vast land, but with confusion.

During 1940s, when Song Wencong, the designer of J-10, saw Chinese civilians atacked by the Japan bombers, he swear to design a good fighter to protect the people against invaders. In 2016, he passed away when the stealth fighter J-20 based on his theory is entering service. People like him make China strong.

However, the mission is only half done. China is now strong, but still not as rich as western world.

I really hope, as you hope, that China can work out her own answer.

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## lcloo

Just off topic once.

Many countries are more socialist than China, in Malaysia, we pay 1 Ringgit (US 25 cents) for visiting a government hospital doctor. A skull drilling surgery plus one week hospitalisation for stroke patient was 800 plus Ringgit (US Dollar 200) in government hospital, as in my mother's case.

We are in many ways far more socialist because the government bear most of the medical costs, and sudsidy for cooking gas, electricity etc.

On the other hand it easily cost tens of thousands US dollars for similar surgery in China because government hospitals are now managed in capitalist manner. To me China economy and every thing as well is capitalist, except the politics and government is still socialist, I won't even call them communist ( as akin to Stalinist).

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## cnleio

grey boy 2 said:


> J-10B



Very West-style cockpit like the F-16, i like it.

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## 帅的一匹

cnleio said:


> Very West-style cockpit like the F-16, i like it.
> View attachment 423911
> 
> View attachment 423912


They use J20 helmet on J10b?

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## Deino

cnleio said:


> View attachment 423912



Anyone noticed, this J-10C0213 is actually this bird we know from November 2015.

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## Deino

... simply a beauty

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## nang2

lcloo said:


> Just off topic once.
> 
> Many countries are more socialist than China, in Malaysia, we pay 1 Ringgit (US 25 cents) for visiting a government hospital doctor. A skull drilling surgery plus one week hospitalisation for stroke patient was 800 plus Ringgit (US Dollar 200) in government hospital, as in my mother's case.
> 
> We are in many ways far more socialist because the government bear most of the medical costs, and sudsidy for cooking gas, electricity etc.
> 
> On the other hand it easily cost tens of thousands US dollars for similar surgery in China because government hospitals are now managed in capitalist manner. To me China economy and every thing as well is capitalist, except the politics and government is still socialist, I won't even call them communist ( as akin to Stalinist).


China's economic reform can be summarized in one phrase: making a right turn while flashing the left-turn signal.

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> ... simply a beauty
> 
> View attachment 423969


The only thing holding this "beauty" back are its AL-31 engines ... really waiting for the WS-10B 



wanglaokan said:


> They use J20 helmet on J10b?


That's not the J-20 helmet ...


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## grey boy 2

J-10B

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## Deino

Hey ... if I remember correctly - after we saw the J-10B at Zhuhai - there was someone telling quite vigorously that there is NO J-10C in PLAAF and all are called J-10B:

Here we go ... just look at the construction number which is clearly J10C0213

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## grey boy 2

J-10 training in complicated, unfamiliar surrounding

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## grey boy 2

J-10B

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## grey boy 2

The different serial number on the ejection seats of J-10 
*J10C0213，*




*J1001XX




J10A0402




J10B0146




J10S0315



*

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## grey boy 2

J-10B

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-10B




Con you read the number ?


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## grey boy 2

Deino said:


> Con you read the number ?


Of cos NO lol


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## grey boy 2

HD pictures of J-10A from the Southern Theater Command taken on 9/9/17























@Deino , i hope you're not serious in the decision of closing the J-20 sticky because of some discussions that you don't think is right, perhaps you should deleted or editing them instead?
Personally i believed its not fair to those who really putting efforts and other members that has been paying big attentions on this thread, thankyou

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## samsara

grey boy 2 said:


> HD pictures of J-10A from the Southern Theater Command taken on 9/9/17
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Deino , i hope you're not serious in the decision of closing the J-20 sticky because of some discussions that you don't think is right, perhaps you should deleted or editing them instead?
> Personally i believed its not fair to those who really putting efforts and other members that has been paying big attentions on this thread, thankyou


Thanks @grey boy 2 for posting those beautiful pics  btw I recall Deino posted a pic at the airport otw to Nantes a day or two ago so I assume he's travelling...

My personal opinion, think we all should be patient and let the thread take some "holidays"; hands off until it opens again  as simple as that.... no rush... just switch the attention to other things. *Tranquility rules! *

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## teddy

Did Chinese J10 had an join exercise with Thailand?


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## Deino

Deino said:


> Con you read the number ?




Now back home on a PC it seems to be 61x6x = 5. Brigade !?


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## grey boy 2

J-10C

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## grey boy 2

Whats 10.1?

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## grey boy 2

HD picture of J-10C

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## grey boy 2

J-10C?

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-10C?



No, a B.

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## grey boy 2

J-10B

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## grey boy 2

J-10C in actions from the movie scene "Sky Hunter 空天猎"

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## zestokryl

Is that targeting or ECM pod on first photo ?

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## grey boy 2

zestokryl said:


> Is that targeting or ECM pod on first photo ?


Eagle eyes pal, i never even noticing that, will be interesting to know what that thing actually is

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## zestokryl

grey boy 2 said:


> Eagle eyes pal, i never even noticing that, will be interesting to know what that thing actually is




Chinese institutes, better have domestic Thales Damocles or LM Sniper rival unrolling pretty soon , or ....

Sadly chinese targeting pods are blurry subject. Its about time somone steps up against western dominance in this field. Russia is obviously hopeless

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> Eagle eyes pal, i never even noticing that, will be interesting to know what that thing actually is




It is the well-known targeting pod. Actually a variant of the one also used by the JH-7A.

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## cnleio

zestokryl said:


> Is that targeting or ECM pod on first photo ?














J-10B/C cockpit







EOTS

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## zestokryl

Is YINGS pod more up to date than WMD 7 ?


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## Deino

No, it is not the WMD nor the yings, it is a pod called K/JDC01A

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## zestokryl

I ve tried running google on K/JDC01A. In neither of the pod pictures lenses were noted

What kind of targeting pod is that ?


----------



## grey boy 2

J-10C, J-10S
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## grey boy 2

J-10C, A, S
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## grey boy 2

cirr said:


> There are a number of other differences if you look closely


Tell me lol bro

J-10B pilots adjust equipment prior to flights training #制胜空天# 空军航空兵某旅组织多架新型战机在东北某地进行自由空战训练，提高飞行员空战本领
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## cnleio

grey boy 2 said:


> Tell me lol bro
> 
> J-10B pilots adjust equipment prior to flights training #制胜空天# 空军航空兵某旅组织多架新型战机在东北某地进行自由空战训练，提高飞行员空战本领
> Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.


J-10A == China F-16A/B
J-10B/C == China F-16C/D
waiting for J-10D with AIDEWS + Conformal fuel tank== China F-16D-Block52

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## grey boy 2

J-10C from the PLA 90th 建军90周年图
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## Akasa

cnleio said:


> J-10A == China F-16A/B
> J-10B/C == China F-16C/D
> waiting for J-10D with AIDEWS + Conformal fuel tank== China F-16D-Block52
> View attachment 430621
> View attachment 430622
> View attachment 430623
> View attachment 430624



I would actually place the J-10A's performance on par with the F-16 Block 40 and the J-10B/C with the Block 60.

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## Figaro

SinoSoldier said:


> I would actually place the J-10A's performance on par with the F-16 Block 40 and the J-10B/C with the Block 60.


What really matters is for the J-10s to dump those unreliable Russian AL-31FN engines. If I’m correct, most J-10 crashes were due to mid-flight engine failures courtesy of the AL-31. They really need Taihang ...



grey boy 2 said:


> J-10C from the PLA 90th 建军90周年图
> Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.


PLAAF insiders suggest that future batches of J-10C’s will be equipped with the WS-10B

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## Akasa

Figaro said:


> What really matters is for the J-10s to dump those unreliable Russian AL-31FN engines. If I’m correct, most J-10 crashes were due to mid-flight engine failures courtesy of the AL-31. They really need Taihang ...
> 
> 
> PLAAF insiders suggest that future batches of J-10C’s will be equipped with the WS-10B



Easier said than done when the WS-10 is still immature compared to the AL-31.

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## grey boy 2

J-10B loaded
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## grey boy 2

J-10C source: （图片来源：兵器 2017年增刊B）
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## grey boy 2

J-10B
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## grey boy 2

J-10C 
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## Deino

grey boy 2 said:


> J-10C
> Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.




Any info on how recent they are?
I'm more than surprised that we completely lost the track on the current highest c/n built at CAC ... the last bird I remember was 2-54 from January 2017 ! So by now more than 9 months without any recent info.

Deino


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## clarkgap

Deino said:


> Any info on how recent they are?
> I'm more than surprised that we completely lost the track on the current highest c/n built at CAC ... the last bird I remember was 2-54 from January 2017 ! So by now more than 9 months without any recent info.
> 
> Deino



The photographer in fyjs, 中南海保镖, always luck around the manufacture of Chengdu aircraft. He said this image was shot last year.


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## Deino

clarkgap said:


> The photographer in fyjs, 中南海保镖, always luck around the manufacture of Chengdu aircraft. He said this image was shot last year.




Thanks ... means already the final Batch 02 aircraft at the end of 2016. So if they did not stop production they must be already producing Batch 03.

Deino


----------



## STRANGER BIRD

*What a gorgeous image: J-10C Mach loop Chinese-style*

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## grey boy 2

J-10C from the movie "Sky Hunter"
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## grey boy 2

J-10C during air-refueling
Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## UKBengali

grey boy 2 said:


> J-10C during air-refueling
> Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.



Beautiful plane. A match for the Eurocanards

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## khanasifm

Western high tech air aft has switched to stand off precision weapon or at least weapons with 10-15 mile range from medium level you do not see rockets being used any more which require expensive aircraft getting close to targets only Russian and Chinese still use rockets ??


----------



## Figaro

khanasifm said:


> Western high tech air aft has switched to stand off precision weapon or at least weapons with 10-15 mile range from medium level you do not see rockets being used any more which require expensive aircraft getting close to targets only Russian and Chinese still use rockets ??


At least for Chinese, I think the pilots get more practice when using regular rockets ... it forces them to be extremely accurate in their close-altitude attacks. But Western air forces need precision weaponry because of frequent strikes in the Middle East where they cannot "afford" civilian casualties. In the end, simply more practice for the PLAAF or RuAF. Precision weaponry is also quite expensive

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## clarkgap

khanasifm said:


> Western high tech air aft has switched to stand off precision weapon or at least weapons with 10-15 mile range from medium level you do not see rockets being used any more which require expensive aircraft getting close to targets only Russian and Chinese still use rockets ??



Just for training. Pilots cannot improve their skill by pratising throw LGB. Rocket is a cheapter option in daily training. Moreover, they always use Stimulated Bomb and Stimulated Program instead of real LGBs in training. Such videos and images are worse for publicity rather than shooting rockets. However, in reports of important military exercises, J-10 always used LGBs and ARMs.

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## cnleio

khanasifm said:


> Western high tech air aft has switched to stand off precision weapon or at least weapons with 10-15 mile range from medium level you do not see rockets being used any more which require expensive aircraft getting close to targets only Russian and Chinese still use rockets ??


Fighter rocket hit target on the ground, that harder than launching a laser-guided bomb to hit ... also rocket much cheaper than a precision bomb/missile. A experienced pilot driving the fighter can destroy ground target with rockets, no problem launching a laser-guided bomb to hit it. PLAAF pilots also training precision weapon ground attack, just Chinese military journalists like rocket more than laser-guided bomb, the photo of rocket hit target more challenging.

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## grey boy 2

Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.

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## Han Patriot

grey boy 2 said:


> J-10C during air-refueling
> Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.


Damn what a beauty, looks nicer than rafale.

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## STRANGER BIRD



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## Yukihime

khanasifm said:


> Western high tech air aft has switched to stand off precision weapon or at least weapons with 10-15 mile range from medium level you do not see rockets being used any more which require expensive aircraft getting close to targets only Russian and Chinese still use rockets ??



understandable since so few ways to learn about east asia...
be advised the expenditure of missiles and guided bombs from all kinds of PLAAF & PLAN fire drills each year exceeded those summed up in Europe...
now, there are only THREE countries left on the earth which are capable of conducting a formal strategic level, multi-dimensional military exercise. We talk about each of them with respect...

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## cirr

Deino said:


> Interesting. Do You have any more recent information on the current J-10C production? Seems as it has been slowed down a bit but given 2-59 spotted already in late 2016 they must be already producing batch 03 aircraft.

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## Deino

cirr said:


>




I cannot see anything?? What kind of file is it?


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## Deino

Deino said:


> I cannot see anything?? What kind of file is it?




Can anyone else open this file? All I see is a red [*X*] 

Can anyone upload it directly at the PDF uploader..... PLEASE


----------



## Figaro

Deino said:


> Can anyone else open this file? All I see is a red [*X*]
> 
> Can anyone upload it directly at the PDF uploader..... PLEASE


Can't you just copy and paste the file onto PDF? They seem to have a bunch of bandwidth ...

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> To admit I see nothing but that x. There is no image, no file, not even anything my PC can open and if I copy and paste the link it makes nothing.....
> 
> Do you see anything?
> 
> PS:
> 
> View attachment 433789


Same here. I see nothing but the "X". Just copy and paste the image directly ... don't use a photo sharing or link. Also, isn't that picture from the August 1 parade?


----------



## Deino

Figaro said:


> Same here. I see nothing but the "X". Just copy and paste the image directly ... don't use a photo sharing or link...?




What image? I get a link without an ending, nothing to copy and paste ... For me it us just a row of letters and numbers.

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## Mughal-Prince

grey boy 2 said:


> J-10C during air-refueling
> Disclaimer: I do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials.


Althow a shadow seems like in a contrast color but looks beautiful.


Deino said:


> Now back home on a PC it seems to be 61x6x = 5. Brigade !?





Deino said:


> It is the well-known targeting pod. Actually a variant of the one also used by the JH-7A.


----------



## yusheng



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## Deino

cirr said:


>




PLEASE ... could You or anyone else please explain what that link/image/file shows in regard to the J-10C-production??

All I get is a link to nothing????

Thanks in advance,
Deino


----------



## cirr

J-10D

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## Mangus Ortus Novem

@cirr ah my friend thanks for sharing the mystery!

J10D will solve PAF's F16 and many eastern border problems. 

It would be advisable for PAC/PAF to joion in this program...who knows PAC might be producing it in collaboration with CAC in Pak.

Afterall PAF needs to replace those '16 and would need about a 100+ J10Ds for that purpose.

A lot of technologies can also go into JF-17 and PAC/PAF NGF and 5th Gen programs.

Win-Win at play here once again!

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## MrSato1

cirr said:


> J-10D
> 
> View attachment 434557


 Is this an official model? If not why is it blurred


----------



## cnleio

cirr said:


> J-10D
> 
> View attachment 434557


Looks like a half-stealth version from the 3D-MAX model ... =）

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## Deino

cirr said:


> J-10D
> 
> View attachment 434557




Thanks ... and now the most interesting part is missing. Will it have a different wing, will it have LOAN ???
By the way, how reliable is this guy? I remember him quite often doing more fan-art than having real access to such projects.


Anyway thanks for posting,
Deino


----------



## Akasa

cirr said:


> J-10D
> 
> View attachment 434557



"Lovely_Swift" is merely a CG artist, nothing more & nothing less. Don't take his words as gospel.

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Thanks ... and now the most interesting part is missing. Will it have a different wing, will it have LOAN ???
> By the way, how reliable is this guy? I remember him quite often doing more fan-art than having real access to such projects.
> 
> 
> Anyway thanks for posting,
> Deino


Is this why J-10C production has slowed in recent months??? In preparation of the new 4.5+ generation J-10D?


----------



## cirr



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## Han Patriot

cirr said:


>


Wow, please dun joke OK, putting J-20 tech on J-10 is gonna be crazy, it's gonna give me orgasm.


----------



## Kakaspai

Deino said:


> PLEASE ... could You or anyone else please explain what that link/image/file shows in regard to the J-10C-production??
> 
> All I get is a link to nothing????
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Deino


Its a picture of 5 j20


----------



## Deino

Kakaspai said:


> Its a picture of 5 j20




Could You please re-post it here via uploading?

Here, I found another one ...

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## Deino

Two new Brigades confirmed ... 8th (former 8. AR/3. AD) and 34th (former 34. AR/12. AD)

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## STRANGER BIRD

*The seven J-10AY and J-10SY of the acrobatic team "August 1" and two IL-76MD PLAAF arrived in Dubai.*
*






 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/927925982442373120*

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## STRANGER BIRD



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## Deino

Fan-art ....

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## rcrmj

I'm still waiting for any news regarding J-10D, more excited than J-11D `````they said big change!

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## Akasa

rcrmj said:


> I'm still waiting for any news regarding J-10D, more excited than J-11D `````they said big change!



J-11D is still an active project?


----------



## yusheng



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## samsara

yusheng said:


> View attachment 436029


Does it mean that the *Double Eleven* Giant Shopping Day is also the birthday of PLA Air Force? 

Thus tomorrow PLAAF will celebrate its 68th Anniversary?

EDIT: YES, it's correct, 68th Anniversary on Double Eleven... so lots of Chinese people celebrate it by online shopping... just found the answer to my question at the other thread:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chinese-air-force-plaaf-news-discussions.84214/page-116#post-10005704

Btw above link posted a very cool new video of the PLAAF!

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## yusheng

samsara said:


> Does it mean that the *Double Eleven* Giant Shopping Day is also the birthday of PLA Air Force?
> 
> Thus tomorrow PLAAF will celebrate its 68th Anniversary?



On November 11, 1949, the Chinese people's liberation army air force was established in Beijing, the original 14 corps commander Liu Yalou was appointed the first air force commander, the original commissar XiaoHuaRen political commissar. 
1949年11月11日，中国人民解放军空军在北京成立，原四野参谋长、14兵团司令员刘亚楼被任命为首任空军司令员，原四野一兵团政委肖华任政治委员。空军统帅机关则是以四野第14兵团为主成立的

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## STRANGER BIRD



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## j20blackdragon

A stealthy J-10D airframe combined with a *stealth weapons pod* might actually be a good low cost alternative to the FC-31.

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## clarkgap

From FYJS: The flares dispensers on J-10 series.
http://www.fyjs.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1884458&extra=page=1

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## Martian2

j20blackdragon said:


> A stealthy J-10D airframe combined with a *stealth weapons pod* might actually be a good low cost alternative to the FC-31.
> View attachment 436482
> 
> View attachment 436483
> 
> View attachment 436484


Interesting. Basically, a Chinese J-10D version of Boeing's prototype F-15SE Silent Eagle.

The Silent Eagle was never mass produced, but China could build a fleet of affordable J-10Ds to complement the J-20s and J-31s.

The J-10D won't be as stealthy from the side as the J-31, because you can't angle the single vertical stabilizer.

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## rcrmj

SinoSoldier said:


> J-11D is still an active project?


it seems like```````


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## Akasa

rcrmj said:


> it seems like```````



So, it's merely been delayed or under redesign? No recent news from the project.


----------



## rcrmj

SinoSoldier said:


> So, it's merely been delayed or under redesign? No recent news from the project.


lots stuff been delayed, its a norm in complicated weapons system development, it happens to us, U.S and Russia all the time```but still within normal limits, very much different from India's delay``


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## Han Patriot

rcrmj said:


> lots stuff been delayed, its a norm in complicated weapons system development, it happens to us, U.S and Russia all the time```but still within normal limits, very much different from India's delay``


Even you know someone is a false flagger eh.


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## rcrmj

Han Patriot said:


> Even you know someone is a false flagger eh.


I dont care who is false flagger or not, I only have two interests here: sharing thoughts and infos, and 把玩三哥·

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## Deino

yusheng said:


> View attachment 436029




Is this a recent image show just a factory-fresh new-built J-10C or already an older image or an aircraft after being modified?

I'm eager to know if CAC is already within Batch 03?

Deino


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## yusheng

Deino said:


> Is this a recent image show just a factory-fresh new-built J-10C or already an older image or an aircraft after being modified?
> 
> I'm eager to know if CAC is already within Batch 03?
> 
> Deino



sorry i don't konw.
i am eager to know too

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## STRANGER BIRD

*J-10A/B in Golden Helmet 2017 competition.*
*














*

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## Deino

STRANGER BIRD said:


> *J-10A/B in Golden Helmet 2017 competition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Any chance of these images in a larger size?? These are from the newly reformed 8. Brigade.


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## clarkgap

Deino said:


> Any chance of these images in a larger size?? These are from the newly reformed 8. Brigade.
> 
> View attachment 437147








A little better. From http://kj.81.cn/content/2017-11/14/content_7823882.htm

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## samsara

*Some beautiful A2A shots of J-10 air-refuelling training.*

















Via dafeng cao @xinfengcao 2017-11-21

More shots here (#21):
http://photo.81.cn/pla/2017-11/20/content_7833381.htm
。。。

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## STRANGER BIRD

*Chinese J-10 aerobatics team performing over (Quetta city Baluchistan,Pakistan on 20/11/2017*

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## STRANGER BIRD

*Chinese J-10 aerobatics team performing over (Quetta city Baluchistan,Pakistan on 20/11/2017*

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## Deino

J-10C 74x2x - 131. Brigade

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## Deino

Concerning the alleged test of a WS-10X on a J-10C a few days ago, we maybe can expect a similar image in a few years similar to this J-10A testing its AL-31FN.

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/936935478049288193

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## Figaro

An old J-10 picture ... in the late 90s I think

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## Deino

J-10A 78112 - 170th Brigade

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## Yukihime

Oh my... gosh...

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## samsara

Watch the video of J-10B/S air refueling.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/941588669789454336。。。

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## Deino

And again another brigade confirmed, this time a J-10A was spotted with the number 63577, which corresponds to the 26th Brigade aka former 26th AR, 9th Division.

Deino






PS ... again, on the J-10C production, which is IMO one of the biggest mysteries. Given we've seen J-10C 2-54 in January 2016 already they MUST be withing Batch 03 already, but we have not seen any one confirmed by now.

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## Deino

Tatatata ....

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## dy1022

Deino said:


> Tatatata ....
> 
> View attachment 443301


 

1152 T/R unit(10W per unit) for J10B/C's AESA

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## cirr



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## Deino

cirr said:


>




... and a huge twin front landing gear????


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## Deino

Figaro said:


> Anything different about the engine




Most likely the same WS-10X type we saw in the first drawing?? Or not??

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Most likely the same WS-10X type we saw in the first drawing?? Or not??


I think that was the whole point of the drawing  ... looks like either J-10C or (most likely) J-10D equipped with sawtooth WS-10X TVC nozzles ...


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## clarkgap

Deino said:


> Most likely the same WS-10X type we saw in the first drawing?? Or not??



Yes, it is. And the printer fixed his picture base on the suggestion from Zhongnanhaibaobiao (the photographer who always stay around CAC). Below is the new picture:








Deino said:


> ... and a huge twin front landing gear????



It is just an old J-10B. They use it to test their new engine.

This should be the TVC on J-10B:

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## lcloo

Bright sun on a Summer day,
with such a lust to ride on the wind,
and *wave with the white petal....*

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> Bright sun on a Summer day,
> with such a lust to ride on the wind,
> and *wave with the white petal....*




But we want images, photos ... and we want them *NOW* !!!


----------



## clarkgap

Deino said:


> But we want images, photos ... and we want them *NOW* !!!



Due to the now privacy policy, these photographers have to learn drawing. Maybe we will get a picture after firstfly.

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## samsara

clarkgap said:


> Due to the now privacy policy, these photographers have to learn drawing. Maybe we will get a picture after firstfly.


The select photographers can attend the select events, can take pictures just cannot publicize them as is... still they can go ahead with drawings to depict the details at best. A compromise policy between confidentiality and publicizing

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## 帅的一匹

We are looking forward to see a complete J10 with Chinese engine to enter service for so many years.

It will prove domestic engine fully reliable only if J10 fit WS10x being inducted. Although it's a bit late, but it's never too late.

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## 帅的一匹

Someone from the Internet also said that current J10 with TVC engine is a tech demonstrator for new single engine 5th gen fighter of CAC. Does it mean the 'AZM' is a medium weight design of single engine with TVC and canards configuration?

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## Akasa

wanglaokan said:


> Someone from the Internet also said that current J10 with TVC engine is a tech demonstrator for new single engine 5th gen fighter of CAC. Does it mean the 'AZM' is a medium weight design of single engine with TVC and canards configuration?



Could you link the rumors? How credible is this individual?


----------



## Shahzaz ud din

*J-10 fighter jets in night flight training*
*




*
*http://english.chinamil.com.cn/view/2017-12/21/content_7878910.htm#.Wj2_dN_PzoI.link*

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## 帅的一匹

SinoSoldier said:


> Could you link the rumors? How credible is this individual?


It's very weird they test a TVC WS10x on a J10b, which had phased out production.


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## Akasa

wanglaokan said:


> It's very weird they test a TVC WS10x on a J10b, which had phased out production.



Once more, where are the rumors that this is a testbed for a single-engined 5th generation project?


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## 帅的一匹

SinoSoldier said:


> Once more, where are the rumors that this is a testbed for a single-engined 5th generation project?


Cjdby


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> It's very weird they test a TVC WS10x on a J10b, which had phased out production.




I think structurally B and C are not different and to test a new system an AESA and other updated avionics are not necessary.


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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> I think structurally B and C are not different and to test a new system an AESA and other updated avionics are not necessary.


On the other point, why they test the new TVC engine on a single engine fighter? Would it be much safer to put it test on J11?

I though PLAAF is very conservative with new stuff, this time it seems very weird for me.

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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> On the other point, why they test the new TVC engine on a single engine fighter? Would it be much safer to put it test on J11?
> 
> I though PLAAF is very conservative with new stuff, this time it seems very weird for me.




That's indeed another point?


----------



## Figaro

wanglaokan said:


> On the other point, why they test the new TVC engine on a single engine fighter? Would it be much safer to put it test on J11?
> 
> I though PLAAF is very conservative with new stuff, this time it seems very weird for me.


Well a TVC WS-10 variant isn't exactly a new engine type or has a completely new core, so testing risks are reduced. Also, i think the PLAAF is confident enough of their TVC to test on their intended J-10, making a J-11 testing redundant. But I read somewhere that the WS-15 may first be tested on a J-11. This shows that the TVC is relative mature ... a good sign

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## Maxpane

beauty


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## Akasa

Figaro said:


> I doubt it. More like a testbed for a stealthy J-10D than a new single engine fighter.



Henri K has also claimed on numerous occasions that CAC is building a single-engined 5th-gen aircraft. I've always harbored the suspicion that the "J-10D" is merely a fan-given designation for a single-engined stealthy fighter rather than yet another J-10 version.

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## Maxpane

is plaaf interested in single engine fifth gen jet?


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## Akasa

Figaro said:


> Perhaps he's alluding to a stealthy J-10D with substantially better avionics and TVC? Even so, its still based on the J-10 ... More like a 4.5++++ fighter



What I'm suspecting that it's a new fighter altogether, and that the "J-10D" designation is a misleading inference.


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## 帅的一匹

SinoSoldier said:


> Henri K has also claimed on numerous occasions that CAC is building a single-engined 5th-gen aircraft. I've always harbored the suspicion that the "J-10D" is merely a fan-given designation for a single-engined stealthy fighter rather than yet another J-10 version.


Modify J10 to a stealthy one is nearly as same workload as making a new stealthy fighter.



Maxpane said:


> is plaaf interested in single engine fifth gen jet?


Maybe not. I highly suspect single engine stealthy fighter is developed under PAF's request. Another name 'AZM'. Since PAF has been working with CAC for so many years and both have enough mutual trust and confidence. I won't be surprised if CAC design a minimized J20 for PAf, as PAF had shown its very big interets on J20 at the first beginning.

Just image a single engine stealthy fighter with WS15 engine. It could start demonstration test with WS10x TVC version.

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## clarkgap

J-10B (from huitong)

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## Avicenna

wanglaokan said:


> Modify J10 to a stealthy one is nearly as same workload as making a new stealthy fighter.
> 
> 
> Maybe not. I highly suspect single engine stealthy fighter is developed under PAF's request. Another name 'AZM'. Since PAF has been working with CAC for so many years and both have enough mutual trust and confidence. I won't be surprised if CAC design a minimized J20 for PAf, as PAF had shown its very big interets on J20 at the first beginning.
> 
> Just image a single engine stealthy fighter with WS15 engine. It could start demonstration test with WS10x TVC version.



I believe this to be the case too. It may serve as a J-10 replacement down the line for the PLAAF as well.

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## 帅的一匹

SinoSoldier said:


> What I'm suspecting that it's a new fighter altogether, and that the "J-10D" designation is a misleading inference.


CAC always give us surprise

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## ozranger

Together with Pakistan's announcement that they will work with China on a Gen.5 fighter, I would bet it is a single engine, single seater and stealth fighter with DSI developed mainly by Institute 611 and CAC. Yes it will be a 100% newly developed aircraft but its shape may remain some resemblance to J-10. JF-17 might be ruled out as the fuselage is too small.


----------



## antonius123

SinoSoldier said:


> What I'm suspecting that it's a new fighter altogether, and that the "J-10D" designation is a misleading inference.



I guess it could be the same J-10 base with a lot of new RAM usage + shape refinement.

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## 帅的一匹

antonius123 said:


> I guess it could be the same J-10 base with a lot of new RAM usage + shape refinement.


How will the design look like depends on how powerful the engine is.

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## rendong



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## Deino

a bit bigger.

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## cirr

Deino said:


> a bit bigger.
> 
> View attachment 444571



That's this year's Xmas gift for you

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## Deino

cirr said:


> That's this year's Xmas gift for you


Yes ... but don't tell it my wife.

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## Beast

Comfirmed TVC?


----------



## Han Patriot

rendong said:


>


That color is not for a test plane. Looks like an operational plane.


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## clarkgap

Han Patriot said:


> That color is not for a test plane. Looks like an operational plane.



An old J-10b. They use it to test new engine.

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## Maxpane

the are testing it or inducting it?


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## clarkgap

Maxpane said:


> the are testing it or inducting it?



Just testing.


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## Maxpane

clarkgap said:


> Just testing.


sir why testing on in service jet


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## clarkgap

Maxpane said:


> sir why testing on in service jet



US also us F-16 to test their TVC. It is only an old J-10B body.


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## Deino

Maxpane said:


> sir why testing on in service jet



It's not the testing of the aircraft but its TVC-system.
Simply since it is the first time a Chinese TVC-system is tested on a Chinese fighter ... no-one would immediately introduce such a system into service without testing.


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## Akasa

cirr said:


> That's this year's Xmas gift for you



Do we know what it's for? J-10D or J-20?


----------



## JSCh

From weibo,




2017年12月25下午3时许，某机型试飞成功。点火，滑跑，起飞，降落，表现均良好。真是让人惊喜的圣诞礼物！
December 25, 2017 around 3:00 pm, a certain plane's test flight successful. Ignition, taxing, takeoff, landing, the performance is good. Really amazing Christmas gift!

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## cirr

JSCh said:


> From weibo,
> 
> 
> 
> 2017年12月25下午3时许，某机型试飞成功。点火，滑跑，起飞，降落，表现均良好。真是让人惊喜的圣诞礼物！
> December 25, 2017 around 3:00 pm, a certain plane's test flight successful. Ignition, taxing, takeoff, landing, the performance is good. Really amazing Christmas gift!



@Deino will be asking for the real image again.

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## Bussard Ramjet

cirr said:


> @Deino will be asking for the real image again.



He has already posted a real image on Twitter. 

Also I admit I have limited understanding of these topics. Can you please tell me what importance does a TVC engine have on J10. Which is arguably not a very advanced fighter.


----------



## Deino

Bussard Ramjet said:


> ...Which is arguably not a very advanced fighter.




Joke of the day I presume !! 

So why did the US tested a F-16 with the AVEN??

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## cirr

Bussard Ramjet said:


> He has already posted a real image on Twitter.
> 
> Also I admit I have limited understanding of these topics. Can you please tell me what importance does a TVC engine have on J10. Which is arguably not a very advanced fighter.



You are neither here nor there.

Most of the time you should be seen not heard.

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## Deino

cirr said:


> @Deino will be asking for the real image again.




Yes for sure

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## Brainsucker

Deino said:


> It's not the testing of the aircraft but its TVC-system.
> Simply since it is the first time a Chinese TVC-system is tested on a Chinese fighter ... no-one would immediately introduce such a system into service without testing.



Is it a TVC system? Why they tested it in a single engine fighter? I thought that TVC system is a brand new to China. Shouldn't they think more of the safety by testing it in a 2 engines fighter like Flanker first?


----------



## 帅的一匹

Brainsucker said:


> Is it a TVC system? Why they tested it in a single engine fighter? I thought that TVC system is a brand new to China. Shouldn't they think more of the safety by testing it in a 2 engines fighter like Flanker first?


Maybe they still study how to coordinate two TVC engine? It's more convinient to test TVC on a single engine fighter. In case it shows strong confidence CAC has in new engine.


----------



## Han Patriot

Bussard Ramjet said:


> He has already posted a real image on Twitter.
> 
> Also I admit I have limited understanding of these topics. Can you please tell me what importance does a TVC engine have on J10. Which is arguably not a very advanced fighter.


Buss, Buss, I always thought you are impartial and have at least some decent analysis. You reckon LCA is advanced do you? 



Deino said:


> Joke of the day I presume !!
> 
> So why did the US tested a F-16 with the AVEN??


Buss is apparently an expert in everything from quantum science to engines to economics.


----------



## cirr

Deino said:


> Yes for sure









Patent application for a type of AVEN with inherent stealth characteristics

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## Bussard Ramjet

Deino said:


> Joke of the day I presume !!
> 
> So why did the US tested a F-16 with the AVEN??



Dude that is why I started with saying that I am novice here, and would like to know more. 

What is AVEN by the way?

Also, isn't the world heading towards stealth fighters, and fighters like J 10 will get increasingly redundant in top performance? 

Also, please tell me what role does Thrust vectoring have? Is it only for maneuverability? Is maneuverability really that important? I remember reading a US report which was underplaying maneuverability, saying that in modern conflict the dog fight situations have almost ended. But as I say, I am a relative novice in this field. 



cirr said:


> You are neither here nor there.
> 
> Most of the time you should be seen not heard.



What do you mean? I already prefaced by saying that I would like to learn about this topic, where there are people far more knowledgeable than me. 



Han Patriot said:


> Buss, Buss, I always thought you are impartial and have at least some decent analysis. You reckon LCA is advanced do you?



Absolutely not. I thought only fighters like J20, F 22, and F31 can be considered advanced. 



Han Patriot said:


> Buss is apparently an expert in everything from quantum science to engines to economics.



Not everything. In fact, I can be said to be an expert in nothing. But I do have a broad knowledge base, and I am certainly among the most knowledgeable in certain fields here. 



cirr said:


> Patent application for a type of AVEN with inherent stealth characteristics



US and most western countries have a system where any sensitive technology or potential strategic technology is pulled out of the patent system. Does China have a similar system?


----------



## clarkgap

cirr said:


> Patent application for a type of AVEN with inherent stealth characteristics




It is not the AVEN that testing on J-10. You can compare the image of WS-10X and this patent and find the obvious differences.


----------



## clarkgap

Bussard Ramjet said:


> Dude that is why I started with saying that I am novice here, and would like to know more.
> 
> What is AVEN by the way?
> 
> Also, isn't the world heading towards stealth fighters, and fighters like J 10 will get increasingly redundant in top performance?
> 
> Also, please tell me what role does Thrust vectoring have? Is it only for maneuverability? Is maneuverability really that important? I remember reading a US report which was underplaying maneuverability, saying that in modern conflict the dog fight situations have almost ended. But as I say, I am a relative novice in this field.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean? I already prefaced by saying that I would like to learn about this topic, where there are people far more knowledgeable than me.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely not. I thought only fighters like J20, F 22, and F31 can be considered advanced.
> 
> 
> 
> Not everything. In fact, I can be said to be an expert in nothing. But I do have a broad knowledge base, and I am certainly among the most knowledgeable in certain fields here.
> 
> 
> 
> US and most western countries have a system where any sensitive technology or potential strategic technology is pulled out of the patent system. Does China have a similar system?




AVEN (axial symmetrical vectored nozzle). Basically, all circle vectored nozzles are AVEN.

F-22 take the 2-demension nizzle, which can defelct the aircraft jets to two directions (up and down).
On F-16 VISTA, US tested a special type of AVEN named MATV (multi axis thrust vectoring), which can defelct the air jets to any direction (360)
Su-35 take another type of AVEN, which can deflect air jets to two direction like 2-D nizzle. Due to the nozzles have a small angle, so it does not work like traditional 2-demension nizzle.

Someone believe the AVEN on J-10 is MATV.

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## yusheng



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## Han Patriot

yusheng said:


> View attachment 445395


Wow, I am getting goosebumps looking at that picture. This plane is definitely better than the Rafale.

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## Deino

Han Patriot said:


> Wow, I am getting goosebumps looking at that picture. This plane is definitely better than the Rafale.



Pardon ... even if IMO the J-10 is one of the most aesthetically pleasant aircraft and it surely can be rated among the one You mention, You call all judge that from a single image???

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## Han Patriot

Deino said:


> Pardon ... even if IMO the J-10 is one of the most aesthetically pleasant aircraft and it surely can be rated among the one You mention, You call all judge that from a single image???


Just a fanboy rant.

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## yusheng

from the movie

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## clarkgap

From weibo @飞舞的摩羯

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## Deino

clarkgap said:


> From weibo @飞舞的摩羯



But we need images !!!!

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## Deino

Does anyone have an idea, what Western Theater Command flies the J-10B??

The J-11-brigade mentioned is clearly the 16th Brigade, but in my Orbat no brigade flies the J-10B

http://english.chinamil.com.cn/view/2018-01/08/content_7899396_3.htm

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## clarkgap




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## Deino

J-10B 61166 5. Brigade

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## Safriz

J-10 C with WS-10B Engine






After the attempt not very successful to replace AL-31FN series 3 by WS - 10B on a prototype of a J - 10B, Chengdu have started trials on the ground of a J - 10 c with a new variant of the WS - 10, with the thrust vector and the jagged nozzles, such as the J-20 #2021.

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## clarkgap

شاھین میزایل said:


> J-10 C with WS-10B Engine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After the attempt not very successful to replace AL-31FN series 3 by WS - 10B on a prototype of a J - 10B, Chengdu have started trials on the ground of a J - 10 c with a new variant of the WS - 10, with the thrust vector and the jagged nozzles, such as the J-20 #2021.



This is just a normal J-10C with AL-31FN. They still use a old J-10B testing the WS-10X.

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## Deino

clarkgap said:


> This is just a normal J-10C with AL-31FN. They still use a old J-10B testing the WS-10X.



You are correct, however the one with the TVC is indeed a C-model....

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## clarkgap

Deino said:


> You are correct, however the one with the TVC is indeed a C-model....
> 
> View attachment 448134








However, J-10Cs should have an antenna in the front of the vertical tail. And J-10Bs do not have it.

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## Deino

clarkgap said:


> View attachment 448181
> 
> 
> However, J-10Cs should have an antenna in the front of the vertical tail. And J-10Bs do not have it.




Good point, but IMO it is most of all the lack of the standard MAWs (not RWRs as I noted first; sorry).

by the way ... do we have finally info on what's the current batch in production at CAC?? So far at least I have not seen a single Batch 03 aircraft and Batch 02-51 is almost half a year old.

Deino


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## clarkgap

Deino said:


> Good point, but IMO it is most of all the lack of the standard MAWs (not RWRs as I noted first; sorry).
> 
> by the way ... do we have finally info on what's the current batch in production at CAC?? So far at least I have not seen a single Batch 03 aircraft and Batch 02-51 is almost half a year old.
> 
> Deino



中南海保镖（The photographer）had said they trimed the shape of the structure above the nozzle in order to make space for TVC. It may caused the change of location of MAWs.

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## 帅的一匹




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## Deino

New sat-images from CAC taken on 18. December 2017.

Visible are 21×J-10Cs, 2× Wing Loong, J-20 (via nhjd) ... I'm surprised that we have yet not seen any Batch 03 J-10C ...













via:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/953778159589113856

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## clarkgap

Deino said:


> New sat-images from CAC taken on 18. December 2017.
> 
> Visible are 21×J-10Cs, 2× Wing Loong, J-20 (via nhjd) ... I'm surprised that we have yet not seen any Batch 03 J-10C ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 448717
> View attachment 448718
> 
> 
> via:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/953778159589113856



New national private policy is not a joke.


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## lcloo

clarkgap said:


> New national private policy is not a joke.[/QUOTE



That is why we are seeing more catoon drawings and hand sketches. Officially sanctioned photos will take time after the actual event happenning, time lapse period will be depending on sensitivity of the subject.

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## Deino

J-10B/C flight training


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/954406857778450434
+ video:

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## 帅的一匹

Any news about J10b exportation to Bangladesh airforce?

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## Gomig-21

Love this pic of J-10 firing a PL-12.

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## siegecrossbow

wanglaokan said:


> Any news about J10b exportation to Bangladesh airforce?



Bangladesh is buying Su-30s.

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## Brainsucker

siegecrossbow said:


> Bangladesh is buying Su-30s.



Wait a minutes, I thought that SU-30 is no longer in production in Russia. They sell SU-35. But it seems that I'm wrong.


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## lcloo

SU-30 is a twin seat strike fighter for surface strike as well as air-to-air engagement, the reason for having two seats is because it needs a weapon operator/officer to concentrate on air-to-ground/sea engagement while the pilot concentrate on flying.

And SU-35 is a single seat air superiority fighter mainly for air-to air engagement. SU-30 and SU-35 are aircraft for different roles, thus SU-35 does not supercede SU-30.

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## siegecrossbow

Brainsucker said:


> Wait a minutes, I thought that SU-30 is no longer in production in Russia. They sell SU-35. But it seems that I'm wrong.



The Russian Naval Air Force is planning on inducting 50 Su-30s (or have they already inducted?), so I doubt that the production line is closed. Let's get back on topic please.

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## clarkgap



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## Deino

After some break a new brigade spotted:

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## clarkgap

Deino said:


> After some break a new brigade spotted:
> 
> View attachment 459160



6106X, new J-10C?!

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## Deino

clarkgap said:


> 6106X, new J-10C?!




Yes ... to be assigned to the 5. Brigade

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## JSCh

On March 23, 1998, the first new generation jet fighter developed by China, the J-10, successfully completed its first test flight.

Photo from AVIC weibo to commemorate this 20th anniversary showing one of the the original J-10 undergoing stress test.

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## 帅的一匹

Real son of China aviation is J10.


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## rashid.sarwar

Deino said:


> After some break a new brigade spotted:
> 
> View attachment 459160



Is that TVC engine, if it are there more information/pic available.

Thanks


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## Figaro

rashid.sarwar said:


> Is that TVC engine, if it are there more information/pic available.
> 
> Thanks


Clearly not. Just a standard AL-31F ...


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## JSCh

From PLA daily, commemoration of J-10 20 years anniversary of first flight.




































​From AVIC, 1998.03.23

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## Beast

The photo of J-6 with J-10 is classic. I hope to see J-6 flying together with J-20

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## Deino

Beast said:


> The photo of J-6 with J-10 is classic. I hope to see J-6 flying together with J-20




Indeed ... however it looks more like a JJ-5.

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## Deino

The J-10C TVC-prototype .... I wish the nozzle would be visible.

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## Deino

J-10C TVC-testbed - magazine cover

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## Deino

it combines similar modifications, the USAF tested on the F-16 during the VISTA/MATV and LOAN tests.

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## 帅的一匹

Finally we have a TVC engine, thanks God!

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## IblinI

wanglaokan said:


> Finally we have a TVC engine, thanks God!


The early pic of domestic TVC nozzle can be traced back to 2000s, but the problem is with the engine.

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## 帅的一匹

YuChen said:


> The early pic of domestic TVC nozzle can be traced back to 2000s, but the problem is with the engine.


Yeh, very long ago.

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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> Yeh, very long ago.



Indeed ... here are the WS-10-testbeds I remember. Any info on when the prototype 1004 was tested with the Taihang first?

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Indeed ... here are the WS-10-testbeds I remember. Any info on when the prototype 1004 was tested with the Taihang first?
> 
> View attachment 463382


It replace Al31 with WS10 at year 2004.

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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> J-10C TVC-testbed - magazine cover
> 
> View attachment 463379


I believe this is still an artist's impression.


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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> I believe this is still an artist's impression.



You mean a real image "mated" with a psed nozzle??


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## LKJ86



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## 星海军事

Deino said:


> You mean a real image "mated" with a psed nozzle??



That's what I mean.


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## Deino

星海军事 said:


> That's what I mean.



Could you please explain your concerns?

IMO it looks quite real...

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Could you please explain your concerns?
> 
> IMO it looks quite real...
> View attachment 463516


Indeed. It looks really similar to the illustration and even the picture we got last December ...


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## Deino

Figaro said:


> Indeed. It looks really similar to the illustration and even the picture we got last December ...



Yes, but my point is that it looks not only similar but at least I cannot see any sign of being a photoshopped image.


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## rcrmj

this is not the only TVS they've got````at least one more````

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## Akasa

rcrmj said:


> this is not the only TVS they've got````at least one more````



On the J-20 prototype?


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## 帅的一匹

rcrmj said:


> this is not the only TVS they've got````at least one more````

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## rcrmj

Akasa said:


> On the J-20 prototype?


nope```WS-15 still needs years to be ready, let alone a TVC version?


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## LKJ86



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## 帅的一匹

rcrmj said:


> nope```WS-15 still needs years to be ready, let alone a TVC version?


Will be ready before year 2015.

We have start to work on VCE and PDE.

Maybe this WS10X is a testbed for WS15.


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> Will be ready before year *2015*.



 Will be in 2015????


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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Will be in 2015????


I mean fully combat ready with J20.

It's also a possibility that CCP cheat you on the schedule.

They are sly and tricky

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## LKJ86

wanglaokan said:


> I mean fully combat ready with J20.
> 
> It's also a possibility that CCP cheat you on the schedule.
> 
> They are sly and tricky


"Will" "2015"


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> I mean fully combat ready with J20.
> 
> It's also a possibility that CCP cheat you on the schedule.
> 
> They are sly and tricky




But then even more 2015 must be a typo??


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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> But then even more 2015 must be a typo??


Yang Wei, the chief designer, said it.

Maybe we can see J20 fly WS15 before year 2015.

WS10x is just a stop gap.

I don't think China airforce need a high-low combination of Stealthy fighters. If the WS15 is ready, just concentrate on producing J20. Maybe navy need a different platform.


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> Yang Wei, the chief designer, said it.
> 
> Maybe we can see J20 fly WS15 before year 2015.
> 
> WS10x is just a stop gap.
> 
> I don't think China airforce need a high-low combination of Stealthy fighters. If the WS15 is ready, just concentrate on producing J20. Maybe navy need a different platform.



Pardon and maybe I need another cup of coffee but there are few points than make your or Yang Wei's statement impossible:

- the WS-15 is NOT ready yet.
- we haven't seen any WS-15 yet. Not on bench-test, not on a J-20 prototype, not on an aerial testbed Il-76LL .. NONE.
- Even more we have just seen a WS-10X on the J-20A, not even with TVC ...
- we already have 2018 !

So how could a fully matured WS-15 + TVC be ready in 2015??

Deino


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## cirr

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 463641



TVC with Chinese characteristics

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Pardon and maybe I need another cup of coffee but there are few points than make your or Yang Wei's statement impossible:
> 
> - the WS-15 is NOT ready yet.
> - we haven't seen any WS-15 yet. Not on bench-test, not on a J-20 prototype, not on an aerial testbed Il-76LL .. NONE.
> - Even more we have just seen a WS-10X on the J-20A, not even with TVC ...
> - we already have 2018 !
> 
> So how could a fully matured WS-15 + TVC be ready in 2015??
> 
> Deino


I think they change the specification of WS15 in the middle way of development, it consumes a lot of time. They don't want a engine to be outdated at the date of birth. As new material is keep coming, they may have a brand new idea.

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 463641




Quite very much similar to this system developed by Salyut

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> Pardon and maybe I need another cup of coffee but there are few points than make your or Yang Wei's statement impossible:
> 
> - the WS-15 is NOT ready yet.
> - we haven't seen any WS-15 yet. Not on bench-test, not on a J-20 prototype, not on an aerial testbed Il-76LL .. NONE.
> - Even more we have just seen a WS-10X on the J-20A, not even with TVC ...
> - we already have 2018 !
> 
> So how could a fully matured WS-15 + TVC be ready in 2015??
> 
> Deino


We never saw the WS-10 until it was incorporated into the J-11 prototype ...


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## 星海军事

Yang never said that and WS-15 has never been scheduled to be ready before 2020.

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## LKJ86



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## rcrmj

wanglaokan said:


> Will be ready before year 2015.
> 
> We have start to work on VCE and PDE.
> 
> Maybe this WS10X is a testbed for WS15.


What?```!```it'd be lucky if they can nail down WS15 on 2020````if there is a bet, I'd bet on the fourth-gen medium thrust engine over WS15 on 2020, you just cant bypass all of those works and details to have a reliable fourth-gen high thrust engine``

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## 帅的一匹

rcrmj said:


> What?```!```it'd be lucky if they can nail down WS15 on 2020````if there is a bet, I'd bet on the fourth-gen medium thrust engine over WS15 on 2020, you just cant bypass all of those works and details to have a reliable fourth-gen high thrust engine``


Typo, I want to say get it done before year 2025.



rcrmj said:


> What?```!```it'd be lucky if they can nail down WS15 on 2020````if there is a bet, I'd bet on the fourth-gen medium thrust engine over WS15 on 2020, you just cant bypass all of those works and details to have a reliable fourth-gen high thrust engine``


What's the main problem WS15 is facing now? Did they reset the specification for a higher performance in the middle of development?


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## Figaro

wanglaokan said:


> Typo, I want to say get it done before year 2025.
> 
> 
> What's the main problem WS15 is facing now? Did they reset the specification for a higher performance in the middle of development?


The WS-15 should be completed within the 2020-2025 timeframe. Last year, there was an official report of a vibration issue that needed solving. Apart from that, the program seems to be going smoothly. And yes, they probably upgraded the tech specifications. If you want the original specs published in the early 2000’s, search for YWH-30-27. I’ll list the specs here ...

30 kg/s corrected air flow
175 kN wet thrust/ 110 kN dry thrust
6 stage HPC
OPR around 6-7
1900K turbine inlet temp
TWR 10
Basically, you should expect specs at least equal to the ones presented above. They’re pretty decent but I believe that the Chinese can improve on these by 2020 given their huge strides. But don’t expect any huge improvements or surprises ... as for lack of info, just wait. Last November, the J-10 TVC popped out of nowhere from a cartoon artist. Expect something similar with the WS-15.

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## 帅的一匹

I wanna post it again, too sexy!

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## LKJ86



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## atan651

Majestic aircraft.


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> Finally we have a TVC engine, thanks God!



By the way, is there any info on when exactly the first TVC-nozzle was tested in China? I mean the one we know with *Jiang Zemin *on control and even more what type of engine this was?


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## LKJ86



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## clarkgap

Deino said:


> By the way, is there any info on when exactly the first TVC-nozzle was tested in China? I mean the one we know with *Jiang Zemin *on control and even more what type of engine this was?



There is a patent about it applied by Shenyang.


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## Irfan Baloch

i did it

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## Brainsucker

Irfan Baloch said:


> i did it



Irfan, your J-10 is too short and fat. And there is an important detail that you miss at the back of the aircraft. The tail wing or something that point to below the airplane.


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## Ultima Thule

Irfan Baloch said:


> i did it


nice try sir but you forget ventral fins under the tail sir

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## Irfan Baloch

Brainsucker said:


> Irfan, your J-10 is too short and fat. And there is an important detail that you miss at the back of the aircraft. The tail wing or something that point to below the airplane.


aim was to make a resembling plane looking almost like J10. 
there are limited options in the program and my own creativity has its limits too



pakistanipower said:


> nice try sir but you forget ventral fins under the tail sir


maybe I will address that in next version. I wanted something looking close to that plane it it was a very complex design for me

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## ZeEa5KPul

Figaro said:


> The WS-15 should be completed within the 2020-2025 timeframe. Last year, there was an official report of a vibration issue that needed solving. Apart from that, the program seems to be going smoothly. And yes, they probably upgraded the tech specifications. If you want the original specs published in the early 2000’s, search for YWH-30-27. I’ll list the specs here ...
> 
> 30 kg/s corrected air flow
> 175 kN wet thrust/ 110 kN dry thrust
> 6 stage HPC
> OPR around 6-7
> 1900K turbine inlet temp
> TWR 10
> Basically, you should expect specs at least equal to the ones presented above. They’re pretty decent but I believe that the Chinese can improve on these by 2020 given their huge strides. But don’t expect any huge improvements or surprises ... as for lack of info, just wait. Last November, the J-10 TVC popped out of nowhere from a cartoon artist. Expect something similar with the WS-15.


Something seems _really _off about those numbers. The F135 (I know the F119 would be the better comparison at that stage of the WS-15's development, but I can't find good data on the F119's parameters) has an OPR of 28 and airflow of 140 kg/s. Those numbers you posted are the wrong order of magnitude - it seems unphysical that the WS-15 can reach its stated thrust with those numbers.

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## Deino

1031 with a Taihang? ... I thought so far only 1004, 1035 and the final Batch 01 Bs hat the WS-10 installed.

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> 1031 with a Taihang? ... I thought so far only 1004, 1035 and the final Batch 01 Bs hat the WS-10 installed.
> 
> View attachment 466350


All J10c will have WS10 series in the end, we can produce 300 WS10 per year.


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## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> All J10c will have WS10 series in the end, we can produce 300 WS10 per year.




Will might be fine, but the question is how recent this image is since far i did not know.


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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Will might be fine, but the question is how recent this image is since far i did not know.


Prototype 1031 is supposed to have Al31F at the first beginning, they change the engine after that?


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## Figaro

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Something seems _really _off about those numbers. The F135 (I know the F119 would be the better comparison at that stage of the WS-15's development, but I can't find good data on the F119's parameters) has an OPR of 28 and airflow of 140 kg/s. Those numbers you posted are the wrong order of magnitude - it seems unphysical that the WS-15 can reach its stated thrust with those numbers.


These are the parameters given by Jiang Hefu, the chief designer of the CJ-2000 and WS-15. And I think you misread me. I said the corrected airflow was 30 kg/s, not the overall airflow. And I mistyped 6~7 for OPR ... I meant HPC pressure ratio. The OPR should be similar to that of F-119/F-135, which are less than 30.


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## 帅的一匹

Figaro said:


> These are the parameters given by Jiang Hefu, the chief designer of the CJ-2000 and WS-15. And I think you misread me. I said the corrected airflow was 30 kg/s, not the overall airflow. And I mistyped 6~7 for OPR ... I meant HPC pressure ratio. The OPR should be similar to that of F-119/F-135, which are less than 30.


How is WS15 going?


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## Figaro

wanglaokan said:


> How is WS15 going?


I don't k. And I bet most people don't. All I know is that its target completion date is 2020 ... but it might be pushed back a little. A lack of news does not equate to problems or a lack of development. Virtually no one knew the details of the WS-10 until it was flight tested in a J-11 ... expect the same for WS-15. But the baseline should be the statistics I provided earlier. WS-15 shouldn't be encountering too many troubles ... otherwise, why would 606 start development of TWR 15 engine.


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## LKJ86

2018.4.15



















video:http://video.weibo.com/show?fid=1034:3ff1f97de5cb20e14cb2af0bf8651d93

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## cirr

The 72th

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## JSCh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/985725638622375936*CGTN*‏Verified account @CGTNOfficial 1h1 hour ago
China's J-10C fighter jet, the third generation supersonic multi-purpose combat aircraft, starts combat duty today, marking an improved defense and combat system for China's Air Force

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## 艹艹艹



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## LKJ86



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## Avicenna

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 466948



Such a Chinese beauty!

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## beijingwalker

*China's fighter jet J-10C starts combat duty




*

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## samsara

Here's another video clip from CGTN, posted on 18 April.

*China’s domestic fighter jet starts combat duty*

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/986621625683476480

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## samsara

*This is the 5th known combat unit operating J-10B/C fighters in PLAAF, a brigade consists of 32 fighters.*

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/986561695270297600In response to below:

*Two more Brigades confirmed:
1. the 72nd Brigade assigned to the Central Theater Command flying J-10C*

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/985901757229346816

P.S. I always repeat the original text in the twitter's link for these TWO reasons:

1) to make the post SEARCHABLE 

2) just in case the related tweet is no longer available

I will SUGGEST all PDF posters here to adopt the same practice for above reasons, not merely post the twitter's link. If the attached picture(s) are of special quality, I will even repost them in my post at PDF, again, to not solely relying on twitter's availability!!

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## alimobin memon

if im not wrong this C version may be as equal as rafale and typhoons.


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## Akasa

alimobin memon said:


> if im not wrong this C version may be as equal as rafale and typhoons.



Typhoons do not have an AESA radar fitted yet.


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## randomradio

alimobin memon said:


> if im not wrong this C version may be as equal as rafale and typhoons.



Two engines are always better than one.

Rafale and Typhoon can carry greater loads to greater distances.


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## alimobin memon

randomradio said:


> Two engines are always better than one.
> 
> Rafale and Typhoon can carry greater loads to greater distances.


In terms of AA fight I mean't yes range can be factor and load too but one on one is the factor I am referring.


----------



## Akasa

randomradio said:


> Two engines are always better than one.
> 
> Rafale and Typhoon can carry greater loads to greater distances.



Both have their inherent advantages and disadvantages.

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## randomradio

alimobin memon said:


> In terms of AA fight I mean't yes range can be factor and load too but one on one is the factor I am referring.



When you have more range, it really means more fuel, which means Typhoon and Rafale can fight longer, use afterburner longer etc. So even in AA combat, the Typhoon and Rafale have an advantage.

The J-10C is an F-16V equivalent. The F-16V's capabilities are inferior to the Typhoon and Rafale. Even the more advanced and yet fictional Block 70 could not stand up to older versions of the Typhoon and Rafale.

The J-10C will have to demonstrate significantly superior capabilities compared to the F-16V if it has to be matched with the Rafale and Typhoon. Both the Typhoon and Rafale have beaten the F-22 in dogfights.



Akasa said:


> Both have their inherent advantages and disadvantages.



Sure there are. Twin engine aircraft are slightly more expensive to buy and operate.

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## Akasa

randomradio said:


> When you have more range, it really means more fuel, which means Typhoon and Rafale can fight longer, use afterburner longer etc. So even in AA combat, the Typhoon and Rafale have an advantage.



More range and fuel also means that your mass goes up, detracting from your TWR which ultimately dictates your kinematic performance including acceleration and turn.



randomradio said:


> The J-10C is an F-16V equivalent. The F-16V's capabilities are inferior to the Typhoon and Rafale. Even the more advanced and yet fictional Block 70 could not stand up to older versions of the Typhoon and Rafale.
> 
> The J-10C will have to demonstrate significantly superior capabilities compared to the F-16V if it has to be matched with the Rafale and Typhoon. Both the Typhoon and Rafale have beaten the F-22 in dogfights.



This statement does not make sense. Overall performance of these jets is not decided on a single overarching factor like being single- or twin-engined. Plane X having beaten plane Y in "dogfights" (i.e. simulated combat training exercises in a controlled environment) reveals little of their respective capabilities in real-world settings.



randomradio said:


> Sure there are. Twin engine aircraft are slightly more expensive to buy and operate.



And heavier, and more complex to maintain, and not necessarily more advantageous during air-to-air combat (which is decided mostly by sensors, armament, and kinematics).

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## randomradio

Akasa said:


> More range and fuel also means that your mass goes up, detracting from your TWR which ultimately dictates your kinematic performance including acceleration and turn.



So you put more powerful engines into the aircraft, which in this case is true.



> This statement does not make sense. Overall performance of these jets is not decided on a single overarching factor like being single- or twin-engined. Plane X having beaten plane Y in "dogfights" (i.e. simulated combat training exercises in a controlled environment) reveals little of their respective capabilities in real-world settings.



It makes perfect sense, just not in the way you have assumed. The fact that even the highly advanced fictional F-16 B70 could not beat the Typhoon and Rafale in MMRCA proves it.

The aircraft has to be designed to be on par, like the F-35 is to the Typhoon and Rafale. It's not simply "single-engined and twin-engined", what I said is "twin engine is always better". There is a pretty big difference between the two statements.

The J-10C has not been designed to compete with either aircraft. It's a pretty old design that dates back to the F-16 and Lavi. So it's bound to have restrictions that are limited to the aircraft of that time.

One can design a new single engine medium weight aircraft that can be on par with the Rafale and Typhoon. Only the Americans have demonstrated this as of now.

Airframe design matters a lot. The J-10C's empty weight should be similar to the Rafale C. So both are aircraft that weigh about 9-10T. Both should have similar engine power, only about 10KN difference in favour of the Rafale. But Rafale can carry 4.7T of internal fuel and 9.5T of payload on 14 hardpoints versus considerably lighter loads on the J-10C, likely to be 3.5T of fuel and 7T of payload on 11 hardpoints. The superiority of the Rafale's design is already evident.

There is another design being worked on in India, a concept aircraft which is considerably lighter than the Rafale, about 7T empty weight, but has superior capabilities in comparison, including range and payload with much smaller thrust. It has a stealth airframe and internal bays. Now the designer is deliberating whether to make it a single engine or twin engine aircraft, the choice is between cost and safety.

The single engine will give you more cost savings while the twin engine version is necessary for flying over the Himalayas or the oceans because any engine failure would mean the pilot has to eject over extremely hostile geographies. China's potential geographies over which combat could take place are also mountains, deserts and oceans, extremely hostile, hence "twin engine aircraft are better". You have a second chance to bring yourself and your aircraft home during emergencies, something that's impossible on single engine aircraft.



> And heavier, and more complex to maintain, and not necessarily more advantageous during air-to-air combat (which is decided mostly by sensors, armament, and kinematics).



The ease of maintenance of the Typhoon and Rafale is better than the F-16. The aircraft are more expensive, that's it.

Maintenance is subject to the quality of the technology used. It's obvious that the J-10C's engine has poor life and is difficult to maintain compared to the Rafale's and Typhoon's engines. It is likely to be the same with avionics and airframe as well.


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## Akasa

randomradio said:


> So you put more powerful engines into the aircraft, which in this case is true.



And there is nothing stopping a single-engined aircraft from doing the same, thus leveling the playing field and bringing your logic back to square one.



randomradio said:


> It makes perfect sense. The fact that even the highly advanced fictional F-16 B70 could not beat the Typhoon and Rafale in MMRCA proves it.



A military contract evaluates all aspects of the tenders, including price, suitability, long-term cost-effectiveness, logistics, politics, air-ground capability, air-sea capability, size & configuration, et cetera. The fact that X won over Y does not mean that a certain aspect of X is superior to the equivalent aspect in Y.



randomradio said:


> The aircraft has to be designed to be on par, like the F-35 is to the Typhoon and Rafale. It's not simply "single-engined and twin-engined", what I said is "twin engine is always better". There is a pretty big difference between the two statements.



And you evaluated these jets to be (or not be) on par to each other using what? I'm curious as to how you managed to arrive at a conclusion that even the most credited defense analysts are not able to formulate.



randomradio said:


> The J-10C has not been designed to compete with either aircraft. It's a pretty old design that dates back to the F-16 and Lavi. So it's bound to have restrictions that are limited to the aircraft of that time.



The F-22 design predates the J-10 and Eurocanards, so by your logic the latter two should be more capable than the former. The J-10C is fitted with an RCS-reduced airframe, 5th generation avionics, brand new EW/ECM suite, and network centric warfare capabilities; it is very much designed to compete with the latest tranches of the mentioned aircraft.



randomradio said:


> One can design a new single engine medium weight aircraft that can be on par with the Rafale and Typhoon. Only the Americans have demonstrated this as of now.



But, but, according to you, single-engined aircraft cannot compete with twin-engined ones in air-to-air combat, right? Having a change of heart?



randomradio said:


> Airframe design matters a lot. The J-10C's empty weight should be similar to the Rafale C. So both are aircraft that weigh about 9-10T. Both should have similar engine power, only about 10KN difference in favour of the Rafale. But Rafale can carry 4.7T of internal fuel and 9.5T of payload on 14 hardpoints versus considerably lighter loads on the J-10C, likely to be 3.5T of fuel and 7T of payload on 11 hardpoints. The superiority of the Rafale's design is already evident.



I'd like to see some sources for your claims of the J-10C's fuel and weapons payload, as well as the claim that the empty weights of the two are similar. A plane's weapons/fuel capacity (a function of the difference between its MTOW and empty weight) has no direct relationship with its TWR, a key indicator of kinematic performance.



randomradio said:


> There is another design being worked on in India, a concept aircraft which is considerably lighter than the Rafale, about 7T empty weight, but has superior capabilities in comparison, including range and payload with much small thrust. It has a stealth airframe and internal bays. Now the designer is deliberating whether to make it a single engine or twin engine aircraft, the choice is between cost and safety.
> 
> The single engine will give you more cost savings while the twin engine version is necessary for flying over the Himalayas or the oceans because any engine failure would mean the pilot has to eject over extremely hostile geographies. China's potential geographies over which combat could take place are also mountains, deserts and oceans, extremely hostile, hence "twin engine aircraft are better". You have a second chance to bring yourself and your aircraft home during emergencies, something that's impossible on single engine aircraft.



Engine redundancy is just about the only advantage that twin-engine jets have over single-engined ones in all circumstances. The risk of airframe loss secondary to engine failure is much less relevant to land-based aircraf than it is to naval jets.



randomradio said:


> The ease of maintenance of the Typhoon and Rafale is better than the F-16. The aircraft are more expensive, that's it.



I'd like to see some authoritative sources on the maintenance, flight, and overhaul costs of the Typhoon, Rafale, and F-16 if you want your claims to be taken seriously. Flight hours required between overhauls would be good, too.



randomradio said:


> Maintenance is subject to the quality of the technology used. It's obvious that the J-10C's engine has poor life and is difficult to maintain compared to the Rafale's and Typhoon's engines. It is likely to be the same with avionics and airframe as well.



I'd like to see authoritative sources on the overhaul interval and total lifetime of the AL-31FN, WS-10B, Snecma M88, and EJ200 2x0.

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## Brainsucker

Akasa said:


> And there is nothing stopping a single-engined aircraft from doing the same, thus leveling the playing field and bringing your logic back to square one.
> 
> A military contract evaluates all aspects of the tenders, including price, suitability, long-term cost-effectiveness, logistics, politics, air-ground capability, air-sea capability, size & configuration, et cetera. The fact that X won over Y does not mean that a certain aspect of X is superior to the equivalent aspect in Y.
> 
> And you evaluated these jets to be (or not be) on par to each other using what? I'm curious as to how you managed to arrive at a conclusion that even the most credited defense analysts are not able to formulate.
> 
> The F-22 design predates the J-10 and Eurocanards, so by your logic the latter two should be more capable than the former. The J-10C is fitted with an RCS-reduced airframe, 5th generation avionics, brand new EW/ECM suite, and network centric warfare capabilities; it is very much designed to compete with the latest tranches of the mentioned aircraft.
> 
> But, but, according to you, single-engined aircraft cannot compete with twin-engined ones in air-to-air combat, right? Having a change of heart?
> 
> I'd like to see some sources for your claims of the J-10C's fuel and weapons payload, as well as the claim that the empty weights of the two are similar. A plane's weapons/fuel capacity (a function of the difference between its MTOW and empty weight) has no direct relationship with its TWR, a key indicator of kinematic performance.
> 
> Engine redundancy is just about the only advantage that twin-engine jets have over single-engined ones in all circumstances. The risk of airframe loss secondary to engine failure is much less relevant to land-based aircraf than it is to naval jets.
> 
> I'd like to see some authoritative sources on the maintenance, flight, and overhaul costs of the Typhoon, Rafale, and F-16 if you want your claims to be taken seriously. Flight hours required between overhauls would be good, too.
> 
> I'd like to see authoritative sources on the overhaul interval and total lifetime of the AL-31FN, WS-10B, Snecma M88, and EJ200 2x0.



We should also see that Delta Wing Aircraft is a different beast to a conventional wing Aircraft. So J-10C performance can't be considered the same as F-16V. I'm not saying that J-10C is superior or inferior; they just two different beast and shouldn't be considered as the same.

Also, J-10 has a long track record of being used to combat training against Flanker series. From the earliest J-10A and SU-27, to against J-11B, and so on. They won against the older Flanker series, then lost to J-11B. Dunno about the record after that. But none because of the engine number; but because of what you said earlier in your post. Sensor / Avionic / Radar and armament.

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## randomradio

Akasa said:


> And there is nothing stopping a single-engined aircraft from doing the same, thus leveling the playing field and bringing your logic back to square one.



But not the J-10.



> A military contract evaluates all aspects of the tenders, including price, suitability, long-term cost-effectiveness, logistics, politics, air-ground capability, air-sea capability, size & configuration, et cetera. The fact that X won over Y does not mean that a certain aspect of X is superior to the equivalent aspect in Y.



The F-16 was rejected purely on tech specs. Purely on performance, endurance, weapons capabilities, sensors etc. Costs and other factors came in much later, after the Typhoon and Rafale were shortlisted. The IAF publicly announced the F-16 fell short in performance.



> And you evaluated these jets to be (or not be) on par to each other using what? I'm curious as to how you managed to arrive at a conclusion that even the most credited defense analysts are not able to formulate.



Of course. Just look up the published specs.

Rafale: same thrust, same empty weight, more fuel, more payload. How is this rocket science?



> The F-22 design predates the J-10 and Eurocanards, so by your logic the latter two should be more capable than the former. The J-10C is fitted with an RCS-reduced airframe, 5th generation avionics, brand new EW/ECM suite, and network centric warfare capabilities; it is very much designed to compete with the latest tranches of the mentioned aircraft.



The Eurocanards predate the F-22 by at least 10 years.

Designing something to compete with something else doesn't make it better. The J-10's basic design predates the Eurocanards.



> But, but, according to you, single-engined aircraft cannot compete with twin-engined ones in air-to-air combat, right? Having a change of heart?



Incorrect. The J-10 cannot compete with the Rafale and EFT.

Find an equivalent configuration for the J-10.






The problem with single engine jets is no one has really cracked the code on how to make one better than twin engine counterparts of similar size and weight. The Americans managed something with the F-35, but while trying to match the range and payload capabilities of twin engine jets, it is still deficient in performance.

You can put a better radar and missiles on the J-10, but it will still show performance deficiencies versus twin engine jets. That's why even though the Rafale and J-10 have the same size, thrust and empty weight, the MTOW of the two aircraft are very different.



> I'd like to see some sources for your claims of the J-10C's fuel and weapons payload, as well as the claim that the empty weights of the two are similar. A plane's weapons/fuel capacity (a function of the difference between its MTOW and empty weight) has no direct relationship with its TWR, a key indicator of kinematic performance.



The J-10B/C do not have any visible enhancements in size that it can compete with the Rafale's fuel supply.

The J-10C has an extra fuel tank compared to the J-10A. It doesn't mean anything unless it adds 1.4T extra fuel, which is unlikely. So the Rafale will have a 1 hour advantage on internal fuel.



> I'd like to see some authoritative sources on the maintenance, flight, and overhaul costs of the Typhoon, Rafale, and F-16 if you want your claims to be taken seriously. Flight hours required between overhauls would be good, too.





So you want me to prove that the F-16's spares are more expensive than the Rafale's and Typhoon's spares? Would you like me to prove the earth is flat while you're at it?



> I'd like to see authoritative sources on the overhaul interval and total lifetime of the AL-31FN, WS-10B, Snecma M88, and EJ200 2x0.



AL-31FN - 1500 hours
WS-10B - 2000 hours
EJ200 - 6000 hours
M88-4E - 7000 hours



Brainsucker said:


> We should also see that Delta Wing Aircraft is a different beast to a conventional wing Aircraft. So J-10C performance can't be considered the same as F-16V. I'm not saying that J-10C is superior or inferior; they just two different beast and shouldn't be considered as the same.



Both aircraft have delta wings. One is a tailed delta, the other is a compound delta.

Even the J-20 has delta wings.

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## Brainsucker

randomradio said:


> But not the J-10.
> 
> Both aircraft have delta wings. One is a tailed delta, the other is a compound delta.
> 
> Even the J-20 has delta wings.



You're right.


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## 帅的一匹

Rafale can't field against J20, and the rest is just BS.

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## Deino

Can we come back to the topic esp. since we have only few hard facts on the true J-10's performances ...

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## Daniel808

alimobin memon said:


> if im not wrong this C version may be as equal as rafale and typhoons.



Equal or not, depends on who answer that question.
But you can judge it by yourself with a credible and proper information regarding Chengdu J-10B/C.

and I will give you that information, go check that link.
Huitong is one of the most credible sources regarding Chinese Military Aviation, very straight and objective.
http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.co.id/p/fighters-ii.html

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## Akasa

randomradio said:


> But not the J-10.



Based on what? Do back up your claims.



randomradio said:


> The F-16 was rejected purely on tech specs. Purely on performance, endurance, weapons capabilities, sensors etc. Costs and other factors came in much later, after the Typhoon and Rafale were shortlisted. The IAF publicly announced the F-16 fell short in performance.
> 
> Of course. Just look up the published specs.



What "tech specs"? Please provide the "published specs" that you claim of but nobody else seems to have. And which variant are you referring to? You need to post raw data on flight endurance, weapons load, sensor range and tracking, cost per flight/hour, lifetime, and overall maintenance costs on the respective fighters before making these sort of claims.



randomradio said:


> Rafale: same thrust, same empty weight, more fuel, more payload. How is this rocket science?



I asked for a source and raw data on those parameters; how is that rocket science?



randomradio said:


> The Eurocanards predate the F-22 by at least 10 years. Designing something to compete with something else doesn't make it better. The J-10's basic design predates the Eurocanards.



 You are seriously going to compare aircraft capabilities using the date of their debut? There you go, I can now claim that the JF-17 is more advanced than the Rafale because the former flew in 2003 while the latter did so in the late 1980s. By the same line of thinking, I can claim the following:

J-16 is more advanced than the F-22/F-35
J-15 is more advanced than the F-22/F35
J-10B is more advanced than the F-22/F35
JH-7A is more advanced than the Rafale
I hope it doesn't take too long to realize the error in your thinking.



randomradio said:


> Incorrect. The J-10 cannot compete with the Rafale and EFT.



Once again, based on what?



randomradio said:


> Find an equivalent configuration for the J-10.



How does this mean anything significant, other than in terms of aesthetics, with regards to their respective air-to-air performances? The dictating parameters, as I've mentioned previously, are the sensors, kinematics, weapons capability, and sheer pilot skill, _none_ of which are *visible* to the naked eye or can be demonstrated by a single photograph.



randomradio said:


> The problem with single engine jets is no one has really cracked the code on how to make one better than twin engine counterparts of similar size and weight. The Americans managed something with the F-35, but while trying to match the range and payload capabilities of twin engine jets, it is still deficient in performance.



The word "better" means nothing unless it's put into context. Better in terms of _what_? A single-engine fighter with advanced avionics, sensor fusion, and weapons can outfight a twin-engined jet with previous-generation subsystems any day.



randomradio said:


> You can put a better radar and missiles on the J-10, but it will still show performance deficiencies versus twin engine jets. That's why even though the Rafale and J-10 have the same size, thrust and empty weight, the MTOW of the two aircraft are very different.



Once again, and it's something you've consistently failed to do, you need to back up the claim of "performance deficiencies" with raw data and sources. What are the comparative climb rates, roll rates, sustained turning rates, speed, maximum sustained _g_, etc.? I can just as easily claim that plane X and plane Y if I were not obliged to provide authoritative evidence for those claims.



randomradio said:


> The J-10B/C do not have any visible enhancements in size that it can compete with the Rafale's fuel supply.
> 
> The J-10C has an extra fuel tank compared to the J-10A. It doesn't mean anything unless it adds 1.4T extra fuel, which is unlikely. So the Rafale will have a 1 hour advantage on internal fuel.



Fuel supply does not translate to better air-to-air performance. And, for the second time, please provide *numbers* and *sources* for the fuel capacities of the Rafale-C/M and J-10C.



randomradio said:


> So you want me to prove that the F-16's spares are more expensive than the Rafale's and Typhoon's spares? Would you like me to prove the earth is flat while you're at it?



Yes, in fact I do want you to prove that. Please provide data on the individual spares, the cost per hour of flight and maintenance, the maximum overhaul interval in years, and the overall lifespan (in hours). I'm waiting.



randomradio said:


> AL-31FN - 1500 hours
> WS-10B - 2000 hours
> EJ200 - 6000 hours
> M88-4E - 7000 hours



Please be so kind as to provide your source of information



randomradio said:


> Both aircraft have delta wings. One is a tailed delta, the other is a compound delta.
> 
> Even the J-20 has delta wings.



So in other words, the two have different configurations and thus a direct comparison is not appropriate.

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## randomradio

Akasa said:


> Based on what? Do back up your claims.
> 
> 
> 
> What "tech specs"? Please provide the "published specs" that you claim of but nobody else seems to have. And which variant are you referring to? You need to post raw data on flight endurance, weapons load, sensor range and tracking, cost per flight/hour, lifetime, and overall maintenance costs on the respective fighters before making these sort of claims.
> 
> 
> 
> I asked for a source and raw data on those parameters; how is that rocket science?
> 
> 
> 
> You are seriously going to compare aircraft capabilities using the date of their debut? There you go, I can now claim that the JF-17 is more advanced than the Rafale because the former flew in 2003 while the latter did so in the late 1980s. By the same line of thinking, I can claim the following:
> 
> J-16 is more advanced than the F-22/F-35
> J-15 is more advanced than the F-22/F35
> J-10B is more advanced than the F-22/F35
> JH-7A is more advanced than the Rafale
> I hope it doesn't take too long to realize the error in your thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, based on what?
> 
> 
> 
> How does this mean anything significant, other than in terms of aesthetics, with regards to their respective air-to-air performances? The dictating parameters, as I've mentioned previously, are the sensors, kinematics, weapons capability, and sheer pilot skill, _none_ of which are *visible* to the naked eye or can be demonstrated by a single photograph.
> 
> 
> 
> The word "better" means nothing unless it's put into context. Better in terms of _what_? A single-engine fighter with advanced avionics, sensor fusion, and weapons can outfight a twin-engined jet with previous-generation subsystems any day.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, and it's something you've consistently failed to do, you need to back up the claim of "performance deficiencies" with raw data and sources. What are the comparative climb rates, roll rates, sustained turning rates, speed, maximum sustained _g_, etc.? I can just as easily claim that plane X and plane Y if I were not obliged to provide authoritative evidence for those claims.
> 
> 
> 
> Fuel supply does not translate to better air-to-air performance. And, for the second time, please provide *numbers* and *sources* for the fuel capacities of the Rafale-C/M and J-10C.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, in fact I do want you to prove that. Please provide data on the individual spares, the cost per hour of flight and maintenance, the maximum overhaul interval in years, and the overall lifespan (in hours). I'm waiting.
> 
> 
> 
> Please be so kind as to provide your source of information
> 
> 
> 
> So in other words, the two have different configurations and thus a direct comparison is not appropriate.



You are a funny guy. I will leave you to your own thoughts then.

I think you should try to do your own research.

Cheers.


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## Akasa

randomradio said:


> You are a funny guy. I will leave you to your own thoughts then.
> 
> I think you should try to do your own research.
> 
> Cheers.



In other words, you have neither the sources nor the reasoning to back your claims up.

Frankly, that's kind of what I expected from your argument in the first place. I rest my case.


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## Dante80

randomradio said:


> So you put more powerful engines into the aircraft, which in this case is true.
> 
> It makes perfect sense, just not in the way you have assumed. The fact that even the highly advanced fictional F-16 B70 could not beat the Typhoon and Rafale in MMRCA proves it.



Sorry for prolonging the off-topic fork in the thread, but MMRCA does not really prove what you said. 

Have in mind that procurement competitions are (or should be) pretty complex affairs. Performance and Capability for competitor designs is defined, rated, weighted and baked on the competition results according to the priorities and goals that the AF wants to attain (this changes from one program and/or country to the other), but it is only one of the considerations to move forward. 

Economic, political and other considerations are also baked on the results. Things like ToT, engagement by the local industry (percent of overall program cost that comes back to the country), economic or technology offsets, political considerations, ToT, weapon and platform export limits (and degradation of capability via said limits), financing, life-cycle costs, logistics, supporting infrastructure, future upgrades etc etc..

It is really impossible (and highly inappropriate) to reach definite or even relative conclusions about one single aspect of the program via reading the publicly disclosed information of said program in the whole. Like a child, each program is different. 

Hope that helps, cheers..sorry for the off-topic post.

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## randomradio

Akasa said:


> In other words, you have neither the sources nor the reasoning to back your claims up.
> 
> Frankly, that's kind of what I expected from your argument in the first place. I rest my case.



No, my point is your posts are too silly for me to waste time with.

I have given enough clues. You can easily google stuff like "M88-4E service life 7000 hours" etc and come to your own conclusions.


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## Akasa

randomradio said:


> No, my point is your posts are too silly for me to waste time with.
> 
> I have given enough clues. You can easily google stuff like "M88-4E service life 7000 hours" etc and come to your own conclusions.



For someone who claims that plane X is better than plane Y because the former is newer than the latter, you certainly understand the concept of silliness.

Anyways, you can back up your points with evidence or you can continue with your circular logic; it doesn't change a thing.

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## randomradio

Dante80 said:


> Sorry for prolonging the off-topic fork in the thread, but MMRCA does not really prove what you said.
> 
> Have in mind that procurement competitions are (or should be) pretty complex affairs. Performance and Capability for competitor designs is defined, rated, weighted and baked on the competition results according to the priorities and goals that the AF wants to attain (this changes from one program and/or country to the other), but it is only one of the considerations to move forward.
> 
> Economic, political and other considerations are also baked on the results. Things like ToT, engagement by the local industry (percent of overall program cost that comes back to the country), economic or technology offsets, political considerations, ToT, weapon and platform export limits (and degradation of capability via said limits), financing, life-cycle costs, logistics, supporting infrastructure, future upgrades etc etc..
> 
> It is really impossible (and highly inappropriate) to reach definite or even relative conclusions about one single aspect of the program via reading the publicly disclosed information of said program in the whole. Like a child, each program is different.
> 
> Hope that helps, cheers..sorry for the off-topic post.



You can read the reply to this here:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indian-air-force-news-discussions.30328/page-267#post-10429799

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## yusheng



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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/1617093763/4231294982959973

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## Beast



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## LKJ86

J-9 models
---











---

















---





---


















https://media.weibo.cn/article?id=2309404224102461234576

https://media.weibo.cn/article?id=2309404234225279710019

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## 帅的一匹



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## Maxpane

wanglaokan said:


> View attachment 470941


Beautiful pic sir

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## 帅的一匹

Maxpane said:


> Beautiful pic sir


PLAAF finally knows how to take good pictures.

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## Maxpane

wanglaokan said:


> PLAAF finally knows how to take good pictures.


Of course sir


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/1740979351/4235730689346863

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## 帅的一匹

棍子的挂载能力看的蛋疼，永远是两中两近三油箱。啥时候改保型油箱？


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## ziaulislam

randomradio said:


> But not the J-10.
> 
> 
> 
> The F-16 was rejected purely on tech specs. Purely on performance, endurance, weapons capabilities, sensors etc. Costs and other factors came in much later, after the Typhoon and Rafale were shortlisted. The IAF publicly announced the F-16 fell short in performance.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course. Just look up the published specs.
> 
> Rafale: same thrust, same empty weight, more fuel, more payload. How is this rocket science?
> 
> 
> 
> The Eurocanards predate the F-22 by at least 10 years.
> 
> Designing something to compete with something else doesn't make it better. The J-10's basic design predates the Eurocanards.
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect. The J-10 cannot compete with the Rafale and EFT.
> 
> Find an equivalent configuration for the J-10.


do you have acess to google









even an idiot knows what matters is thrust compare the thrust of j-10 and twin engines of rafale and that is difference in payload and range

100 dry thrust vs 90
150 after burn vs 130

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## 帅的一匹

ziaulislam said:


> do you have acess to google
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> even an idiot knows what matters is thrust compare the thrust of j-10 and twin engines of rafale and that is difference in payload and range
> 
> 100 dry thrust vs 90
> 150 after burn vs 130


the wet thrust of M88 is only 8.8 tons(dry thrust only 5 tons), while J10 with Al31FN1 reaches 13.2 ton, WS10b with 14.5 tons wet thrust.
If Rafale field against J16, it's game over. With 400 KM range PL21, it's sitting ducks.

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## Beast

wanglaokan said:


> the wet thrust of M88 is only 8.8 tons(dry thrust only 5 tons), while J10 with Al31FN1 reaches 13.2 ton, WS10b with 14.5 tons wet thrust.
> If Rafale field against J16, it's game over. With 400 KM range PL21, it's sitting ducks.


PL-21 is mainly used against slower maneuver aircraft like bomber, tanker, AWACS and transport plane. Chances against highly agile plane will be less than 50 percent chances.


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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> PL-21 is mainly used against slower maneuver aircraft like bomber, tanker, AWACS and transport plane. Chances against highly agile plane will be less than 50 percent chances.


Then fire two

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## Deino

ziaulislam said:


> do you have acess to google
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> even an idiot knows what matters is thrust compare the thrust of j-10 and twin engines of rafale and that is difference in payload and range
> 
> 100 dry thrust vs 90
> 150 after burn vs 130



Problem is, that all these images - and I don't know why you posted them - are photoshopped fakes or a CG !

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## LKJ86



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## Chimgathar

I guess only things left are conformal fuel tanks and this bird is ready to hunt.

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## 帅的一匹



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## 帅的一匹

If they have a plan for J10D, make sure it will be a kicking *** design.


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/5996312730/4237712670109299

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## Ultima Thule

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 472966
> 
> https://m.weibo.cn/5996312730/4237712670109299


 One of most elegant and good looking jet in the world by the way its B or C and why don't Chinese paint radom in light gray color which increase its beauty and look @LKJ86 like this @LKJ86

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## LKJ86

pakistanipower said:


> One of most elegant and good looking jet in the world by the way its B or C and why don't Chinese paint radom in light gray color which increase its beauty and look @LKJ86 like this @LKJ86
> View attachment 472969


PLAAF has a "special" taste for painting, and now westernized.

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## Ultima Thule

LKJ86 said:


> PLAAF has a "special" taste for painting, and now westernized.
> View attachment 472973


but it never seen in the testing phase of any J-20 prototype bro, anyway its a B or C variant @LKJ86


----------



## LKJ86

pakistanipower said:


> but it never seen in the testing phase of any J-20 prototype bro, anyway its a B or C variant @LKJ86


J-10B

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86

Chief designer of J-10:宋文骢 once had to sell noodles.

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## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 474182
> View attachment 474183
> View attachment 474184
> 
> Chief designer of J-10:宋文骢 once had to sell noodles.


Thanks for sharing the cool pictures of the legendary Song Wencong! So meaningful that I gonna share them with friends in other medium.


----------



## LKJ86

J-10B




K/RKL700A & YJ-91

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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/2331382571/4241151161035433

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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/1740979351/4241810852722581

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Avicenna

J-10 is gorgeous!

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## LKJ86



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## leapx

Avicenna said:


> J-10 is gorgeous!


it is really stunning

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## LKJ86



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## 帅的一匹

J10s is better looking than J10A.

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## Cookie Monster

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 474182
> View attachment 474183
> View attachment 474184
> 
> Chief designer of J-10:宋文骢 once had to sell noodles.


Nothing wrong in hard work no matter what kind of work it is...it only goes to show his character as a hardworking person

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Muhammad Omar

leapx said:


> it is really stunning
> View attachment 476610


----------



## LKJ86

2018.6.1

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## LKJ86

2018.6.12

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86



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## 帅的一匹

China shall finance two squadrons of J10c for PAF, to make this thread a nice ending.

almost 12 years, J10 is not coming.


----------



## Deino

wanglaokan said:


> China shall finance two squadrons of J10c for PAF, to make this thread a nice ending.
> 
> almost 12 years, J10 is not coming.



Pardon, but why do some of you always think that china should finance, china should give for free??

If Pakistan want a few J-10s it should negotiate a deal, but for free that's an attitude I cannot understand ... nothing is for free in life.

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Pardon, but why do some of you always think that china should finance, china should give for free??
> 
> If Pakistan want a few J-10s it should negotiate a deal, but for free that's an attitude I cannot understand ... nothing is for free in life.


its just my personal willing, fanboy stuff.


----------



## Figaro

wanglaokan said:


> China shall finance two squadrons of J10c for PAF, to make this thread a nice ending.
> 
> almost 12 years, J10 is not coming.


Despite the “iron” relationship between the two countries, I don’t think Pakistan should freeload off China’s goodwill. J-10s (not to mention j-10C) are already expensive and giving them out would be a large loss. Also, if China were to give out free J-10Cs, that would set a precedent where Pakistan might ask for more free stuff. The US does not give out free equipment to its allies ... y should China not do the same?



Deino said:


> Pardon, but why do some of you always think that china should finance, china should give for free??
> 
> If Pakistan want a few J-10s it should negotiate a deal, but for free that's an attitude I cannot understand ... nothing is for free in life.


Yep. If China gives out free equipment, then Pakistan might take it for granted (nothing against Pakistanis ... just human nature)

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## 帅的一匹

Figaro said:


> Despite the “iron” relationship between the two countries, I don’t think Pakistan should freeload off China’s goodwill. J-10s (not to mention j-10C) are already expensive and giving them out would be a large loss. Also, if China were to give out free J-10Cs, that would set a precedent where Pakistan might ask for more free stuff. The US does not give out free equipment to its allies ... y should China not do the same?
> 
> 
> Yep. If China gives out free equipment, then Pakistan might take it for granted (nothing against Pakistanis ... just human nature)


well, we can do it when push comes to shove.


----------



## Title1234

wanglaokan said:


> China shall finance two squadrons of J10c for PAF, to make this thread a nice ending.
> 
> almost 12 years, J10 is not coming.


FC1 with AESA radar and more powerful engine plus it small size as good as J10 in air combat.


----------



## Deino

Title1234 said:


> FC1 with AESA radar with more powerful engine plus it small size as good as J10 in air combat.




Let me just think a moment? 


...


*NO!*

Why should a smaller fighter with a less capable radar and engine be "as good as a J-10"???

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## Malik Alashter

Deino said:


> Let me just think a moment?
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> *NO!*
> 
> Why should a smaller fighter with a less capable radar and engine be "as good as a J-10"???


How about gripen is also less capable than the j10 since its smaller


----------



## atan651

You're a friend until you're not needed.


----------



## UKBengali

Figaro said:


> Despite the “iron” relationship between the two countries, I don’t think Pakistan should freeload off China’s goodwill. J-10s (not to mention j-10C) are already expensive and giving them out would be a large loss. Also, if China were to give out free J-10Cs, that would set a precedent where Pakistan might ask for more free stuff. The US does not give out free equipment to its allies ... y should China not do the same?



Of course the US does give free money to people it wants to.
Jews get 3 billion dollars in grant every year and they need to use a proportion of that to "buy" US equipment.
As part of the peace agreement to accept the Jewish presence in the ME, both Egypt and Jordan also get many billions of free money each year.

China does give free money to Pakistan as it is in it's strategic interest to keep a friendly Pakistan strong - tie down India and access to the warm waters of the Arabian sea.
I agree with @wanglaokan as a couple of squadrons of J-10Cs will cost China little for a lot of gain. I think that China just gives Pakistan stuff on soft "loans" and then does not ask for it back.

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## 帅的一匹

UKBengali said:


> Of course the US does give free money to people it wants to.
> Jews get 3 billion dollars in grant every year and they need to use a proportion of that to "buy" US equipment.
> As part of the peace agreement to accept the Jewish presence in the ME, both Egypt and Jordan also get many billions of free money each year.
> 
> China does give free money to Pakistan as it is in it's strategic interest to keep a friendly Pakistan strong - tie down India and access to the warm waters of the Arabian sea.
> I agree with @wanglaokan as a couple of squadrons of J-10Cs will cost China little for a lot of gain. I think that China just gives Pakistan stuff on soft "loans" and then does not ask for it back.


few billions a year wont be any problem.


----------



## Deino

Malik Alashter said:


> How about gripen is also less capable than the j10 since its smaller



I think that comparison is off since you barely know the systems installed and their capabilities even more since they are from a different source: So to assume a Gripen is smaller than a J-10 so it is less capable is not possible since you did not mention, what variant (Gripen A, C, E) against a J-10A, B, C ???

However we can assume that given the same source and therefore level of technology of a JF-17 and a J-10C I'm sure one can say a smaller radar fitted to a smaller fighter with a less powerful engine from the same manufactor can barely be superior or even the same as a large one, with a more powerful engine and larger radar.

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## LKJ86



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## ziaulislam

Malik Alashter said:


> How about gripen is also less capable than the j10 since its smaller


Should have a smaller radar



Deino said:


> Pardon, but why do some of you always think that china should finance, china should give for free??
> 
> If Pakistan want a few J-10s it should negotiate a deal, but for free that's an attitude I cannot understand ... nothing is for free in life.


I doubt anyone in Pakistan has asked for free j10s...fan boys are fanboys

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Globalwarrior

Beautiful aircraft 
Function follows form

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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/2331382571/4255437702649865

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/1740979351/4256707138465355

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/5293335778/4257231501784787

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## khanasifm

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 483484
> 
> https://m.weibo.cn/1740979351/4256707138465355



Never seen centerline station carrying anything besides droptanks

Like f-8 

View attachment 483880


----------



## khanasifm

Centerline station with multiple ejection rack


----------



## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 483756




A new unit??


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## 帅的一匹

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 484751
> View attachment 484752
> 
> 
> View attachment 484754


中国战记要想大卖，发射火箭弹这种事情还是少做吧。

土的都掉渣了。

兔子在产品市场推广上真的要做做功课这种打火箭弹给人第一印象就是苏联遗产，低端货。

以后这种照片不要贴了。

一个军队硬件提高比较容易，但是思维模式要改变很难。

脑补一下F16BLK52 发射火箭弹。

完全没有吸引力。


----------



## LKJ86

wanglaokan said:


> 中国战记要想大卖，发射火箭弹这种事情还是少做吧。
> 
> 土的都掉渣了。
> 
> 兔子在产品市场推广上真的要做做功课这种打火箭弹给人第一印象就是苏联遗产，低端货。
> 
> 以后这种照片不要贴了。


打火箭弹的目的并不是为了推销，而是为了训练，成本低廉且效果明显。
至于战机出口，我们需要耐心和定力，毕竟时间是站在我们这边。


----------



## 帅的一匹

as a seller, you shall be clear what the customers want to see, not what you wanna them to see.

fancy, sharp, cool.



LKJ86 said:


> 打火箭弹的目的并不是为了推销，而是为了训练，成本低廉且效果明显。
> 至于战机出口，我们需要耐心和定力，毕竟时间是站在我们这边。


所以卖不掉

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## LKJ86




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## 帅的一匹

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 485995


Somehow I start to believe J10 is related to Lavi, look at the ventral fins.

At least, the J10 design is influenced by the Lavi concept.


----------



## LKJ86

wanglaokan said:


> Somehow I start to believe J10 is related to Lavi, look at the ventral fins.
> 
> At least, the J10 design is influenced by the Lavi concept.


对于战斗机是否是自主研发的，从该机型的后续发展就可以知道：
J-10：成飞对它的修改是相当从容的，J-10B/C...
J-11：慎之又慎...

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## 帅的一匹

LKJ86 said:


> 对于战斗机是否是自主研发的，从该机型的后续发展就可以知道：
> J-10：成飞对它的修改是相当从容的，J-10B/C...
> J-11：慎之又慎...


Can they remove the ventral fins?

Is it helpful to shield the IR signature of the engine nozzle?


----------



## LKJ86

wanglaokan said:


> Somehow I start to believe J10 is related to Lavi, look at the ventral fins.
> 
> At least, the J10 design is influenced by the Lavi concept.


JH-7 also has the the ventral fins.



wanglaokan said:


> Can they remove the ventral fins?
> 
> Is it helpful to shield the IR signature of the engine nozzle?


FC-31 doesn't have the ventral fins.
It may be a good start.


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2487315&extra=page=1

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## S10

wanglaokan said:


> Somehow I start to believe J10 is related to Lavi, look at the ventral fins.
> 
> At least, the J10 design is influenced by the Lavi concept.


J-10 started before Lavi. Its design was heavily influenced by J-9.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 487956



Hey ... that's the main body of a KD-88 !!!


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Hey ... that's the main body of a KD-88 !!!


Where is the air inlet?

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## ZeEa5KPul

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 487956
> 
> View attachment 487990


OMG!!! A picture of a J-10 with something other than the 3 fuel tanks + 2 SRAAMs load-out. The J-10 looks so different at first I thought it was a UFO .

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Where is the air inlet?
> View attachment 487992
> 
> View attachment 487996



Good point ! ... but what else could it be? Maybe a training round without the intake only to simulate the weight?

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Good point ! ... but what else could it be? Maybe a training round without the intake only to simulate the weight?


I think this one for that purpose:

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## LKJ86

AKD-88

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 488453
> 
> AKD-88




So I was right !


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/6111786953/4267478790152220

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

Very nice image  .... but why the hell does he always ruin the serial numbers .


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 489048


Is the background mountains the Himalayan range in the Tibetan Plateau?

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## Deino

Just found this stating:



> 10B换掉强5



... is it recent and where do J-10Bs replace Q-5s?

https://www.weibo.com/u/2101918757?refer_flag=1005055013_&is_all=1#_rnd1533657030635

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## HAIDER

Deino said:


> Just found this stating:
> 
> 
> 
> ... is it recent and where do J-10Bs replace Q-5s?
> 
> https://www.weibo.com/u/2101918757?refer_flag=1005055013_&is_all=1#_rnd1533657030635
> 
> View attachment 490814


Q5 still in service ?


----------



## Deino

HAIDER said:


> Q5 still in service ?




Exactly my surprise? ... however since the 91st Brigade was the only Q-5 unit converted to a Brigade and there are rumours since some time that the 91st would receive new aircraft it could be.


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Just found this stating:
> 
> 
> 
> ... is it recent and where do J-10Bs replace Q-5s?
> 
> https://www.weibo.com/u/2101918757?refer_flag=1005055013_&is_all=1#_rnd1533657030635
> 
> View attachment 490814





Deino said:


> Exactly my surprise? ... however since the 91st Brigade was the only Q-5 unit converted to a Brigade and there are rumours since some time that the 91st would receive new aircraft it could be.


Q-5 has been retired in 2017.
The person you mentioned had said goodby to Q-5 in 2017/2/22:
https://m.weibo.cn/2101918757/4077894483136530


----------



## Deino

Following HenryK.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1026509447667965953
and if this J-10B unit is within the NTC then for a relocation then most likely the 61st Air Brigade.

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## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/sBZdox14M0tujZywQgOaOA

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## HAIDER

Deino said:


> Exactly my surprise? ... however since the 91st Brigade was the only Q-5 unit converted to a Brigade and there are rumours since some time that the 91st would receive new aircraft it could be.


May be because Q5 is nuclear strike capable. That must be last platform to retire.


----------



## Pakistani Aircraft

Can someone please update me with the status of J-10D.

Timescales for production/induction would be appreciated.


----------



## Figaro

Pakistani Aircraft said:


> Can someone please update me with the status of J-10D.
> 
> Timescales for production/induction would be appreciated.


We currently don't have concrete updates on the J-10D. But we do know that a WS-10X mod TVC is being tested on a J-10C currently ... which is presumably for a J-10D.

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## Pakistani Aircraft

Figaro said:


> We currently don't have concrete updates on the J-10D. But we do know that a WS-10X mod TVC is being tested on a J-10C currently ... which is presumably for a J-10D.



Thanks.


----------



## LKJ86




----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## salman-1

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 493793


Which aircraft here is referred to as its look more like a cross between J 10c and Mirage 2000.


----------



## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/gpbmc8GwR4nAL7dneE8PzA

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 494035
> View attachment 494036
> View attachment 494037
> View attachment 494038
> View attachment 494039




Reportedly at Guilin, so the 5th Air Brigade also got some J-10C.


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

salman-1 said:


> Which aircraft here is referred to as its look more like a cross between J 10c and Mirage 2000.


Are you serious?


----------



## salman-1

LKJ86 said:


> Are you serious?


I was referring to this picture on the previous page, as it's delta wings are like Mirage 2000. I know it's not a genuine picture that's why I stated that comment.


----------



## rambro

salman-1 said:


> I was referring to this picture on the previous page, as it's delta wings are like Mirage 2000. I know it's not a genuine picture that's why I stated that comment.
> View attachment 494309


don't all delta wings look alike?

unless they go with square wings that is against general aerodynamics.


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10Q
https://m.weibo.cn/2296171693/4277605563580315

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 495493


so what this meme is suppose to tell .... help to understand something particular and interesting ...??
all what I am getting is J-10 variants with angry faces and additional antenna on J-10C


----------



## LKJ86

HRK said:


> so what this meme is suppose to tell .... help to understand something particular and interesting ...??
> all what I am getting is J-10 variants with angry faces and additional antenna on J-10C


Just help to distinguish different versions of J-10.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Deino



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## Deino

Figaro said:


> Drawing?



Why do you think so? IMO clearly an image ... maybe a bit modified with ps but clearly an image.


----------



## Figaro

Deino said:


> Why do you think so? IMO clearly an image ... maybe a bit modified with ps but clearly an image.


You're right ... the quality of the photo was poor so I misjudged it for a very nice drawing.


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> View attachment 496410


On January 3, 2018 by 飞舞的摩羯:

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## Beast

That nozzle indeed looks very futuristic.


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86



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## salman-1

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 496649


What pod is this


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## Deino

salman-1 said:


> What pod is this



A dispenser for small practice bombs.


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Thailand

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

via

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1037630427735896065

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1038412543059021825

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## LKJ86

J-10A with PL-10


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/1617093763/4282399368122997

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/gHGH1TtzeARGrQHZFAUaYA

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## Deino

J-10B + KD-88 again


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> J-10B + KD-88 again
> 
> View attachment 498908


J-10C


----------



## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> 
> View attachment 498917
> View attachment 498918
> View attachment 498919



Well ... I think I need more sleep.


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Well ... I think I need more sleep.


Stay up late?


----------



## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Stay up late?



Unfortunately Yes, ... need to finish my next project until 29. September

http://www.harpia-publishing.com/futurebooks


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10B





https://m.weibo.cn/1617093763/4285303097809742

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## LKJ86

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/pt7HGkXnq8FLi3d1Jibnkw

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## salman-1

Which missiles are these on j11

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## LKJ86

salman-1 said:


> Which missiles are these on j11


From Russia.


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## Ultima Thule

salman-1 said:


> Which missiles are these on j11


R-73, AA-10 @salman-1

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## LKJ86

PLAAF & RTAF

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Fly over the desert
https://m.weibo.cn/c/story/player?oid=1042151:4287461908531225_6&display=0&retcode=6102

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## cirr

Periodic resistor-loaded radome

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86



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## Deino

So the PL-11 is still in service?


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 502364
> View attachment 502365
> 
> 
> View attachment 502366




Impressive ... the original PL-10 configuration during test!!


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10B

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 502926


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## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 503402



Please provide a translation for your posts, thank you.


----------



## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 503402


1. 2x J-10C thoroughly defeated 8x J-11 *on the plateau* last year, and J-11 can't found J-10C at all. Besides, the KJ-500 from J-11's side was also "shot down" by J-10C.

2. The upgraded version of PL-12 taken by J-10C is on the same level as PL-15.

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## ILC

LKJ86 said:


> 1. 2x J-10C thoroughly defeated 8x J-11 *on the plateau* last year, and J-11 can't found J-10C at all. Besides, the KJ-500 from J-11's side was also "shot down" by J-10C.
> 
> 2. The upgraded version of PL-12 taken by J-10C is on the same level as PL-15.


By J11 he means the original version of su27 or J11B?


----------



## Akasa

LKJ86 said:


> 1. 2x J-10C thoroughly defeated 8x J-11 *on the plateau* last year, and J-11 can't found J-10C at all. Besides, the KJ-500 from J-11's side was also "shot down" by J-10C.
> 
> 2. The upgraded version of PL-12 taken by J-10C is on the same level as PL-15.



Interesting claim, but without contextual background like the rules of engagement there's nothing much to be extracted from this result.

J-10C also supposedly "defeated" the Su-35 during Aviadarts or some other joint exercise with Russia.


----------



## TOPGUN

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 502187



What a beauty pity PAF didn't buy any !!


----------



## Figaro

Akasa said:


> Interesting claim, but without contextual background like the rules of engagement there's nothing much to be extracted from this result.
> 
> J-10C also supposedly "defeated" the Su-35 during Aviadarts or some other joint exercise with Russia.


The J-10C has much more advanced avionics than the Su-35, so it makes sense the latter would be defeated (particular in BVR exercises). The real only thing going for the Su-35 is its operational range (which is arguably its most impressive feature) and its thrust vectoring, which comes in handy during those once in a while dogfights

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## LKJ86

TOPGUN said:


> What a beauty pity PAF didn't buy any !!


J-10 is on the same level as F-16.
It is not surprised that PAF doesn't buy J-10, while PAF has F-16 already.


----------



## TOPGUN

LKJ86 said:


> J-10 is on the same level as F-16.
> It is not surprised that PAF doesn't buy J-10, while PAF has F-16 already.



Yes true but as we know PAF is most likely not going to get anymore F-16's therefore should gotten some Fc-20's.


----------



## Chimgathar

Yes a pity PAF wasted time, considering the numbers of old F-7s & Mirages PAF operates, J-10s could have complimented existing F-16s & JF-17s. At least PAF could retire older fighters early.


----------



## ozranger

It might be J-10C vs J-11B I think. Remember J-10C has AESA radar, and very likely with digital wave forms, which can make most current counter measures obsolete. J-10C also has some optimization in design applied to minimize RCS, as known as so called semi-stealth.

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86

J-10SH

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## LKJ86

J-10C
October 2, 2018

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## LKJ86

J-10B

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> J-10 is on the same level as F-16.
> It is not surprised that PAF doesn't buy J-10, while PAF has F-16 already.


Mainly the engine issue I believe ... it would be complicated to still rely on Russia for a key part

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## LKJ86

Figaro said:


> Mainly the engine issue I believe ... it would be complicated to still rely on Russia for a key part


What about JF-17's engine RD-93?

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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> What about JF-17's engine RD-93?


Selective statement from someone....


----------



## LKJ86



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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> What about JF-17's engine RD-93?


Exactly my point ... it is still the most troublesome point of JF-17 manufacturing since there is a need for Russia. Neither China or Pakistan wants that ...


----------



## Beast

Figaro said:


> Exactly my point ... it is still the most troublesome point of JF-17 manufacturing since there is a need for Russia. Neither China or Pakistan wants that ...


There is no complaint about engine from Russian, the only complaint is you. Chinese project design has assurance from Putin that supplier of engine for both JF-17 and J-10 is not a problem. Pakistan, China, Russia r/s are all time good. Therefore no foresee it will turn sour in next 5-10 years time.

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## LKJ86

J-10A

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Deino

Finally Batch 03 J-10Cs confirmed !

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## Deino

02-75 !!! OMG ... that now changes a lot, since these production batches are obviously much larger than expected and indeed the question is whether each batch has the same number of airframes?:

... so by my calculation we have 

Batch 01 = J-10B known are up to 0155 and eventually 0156
Batch 02 = J-10C known are up to 0275 and eventually 0276
Batch 03 = J-10C known are up to 03 ... but surely more.

-----------------------------------------------
about 136+ produced over the span of five years.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

RIP

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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> RIP


what happened ....???


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

HRK said:


> what happened ....???


A J-10 (maybe J-10A or J-10S) suffered bird strike, and to prevent the casualties of people on the ground, the pilot gave up ejection.

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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> A J-10 (maybe J-10A or J-10S) suffered bird strike, and to prevent the casualties of people on the ground, the pilot gave up ejection.


May the pilot rest in peace

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1053567328925990913

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## LKJ86

October 20, 2018

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10B

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## LKJ86



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## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> A J-10 (maybe J-10A or J-10S) suffered bird strike, and to prevent the casualties of people on the ground, the pilot gave up ejection.


What a personal sacrifice to the extreme level. May the pilot rest in peace! And his family will be well taken care by state!

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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 508609


WS-10 TVC?


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## LKJ86

Figaro said:


> WS-10 TVC?


Yep, maybe today in Zhuhai.

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> Yep, maybe today in Zhuhai.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## samsara

A thread of tweets by Dafeng Cao today:

*“Big news, it seems the TVC engine testbed will perform a flight display at Zhuhai.” *

“J-10B prototype #1034 powered by WS-10 TVC engine, note the spin recovery parachute mounting base around tail and smoke devices under wing.”
















__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1056777888186294272

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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86



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## Beast

samsara said:


> A thread of tweets by Dafeng Cao today:
> 
> *“Big news, it seems the TVC engine testbed will perform a flight display at Zhuhai.” *
> 
> “J-10B prototype #1034 powered by WS-10 TVC engine, note the spin recovery parachute mounting base around tail and smoke devices under wing.”
> 
> View attachment 509103
> View attachment 509104
> View attachment 509105
> View attachment 509106
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1056777888186294272


The TVC engine must have tested thousand of times without problem before PLAAF willing to take this risk to task that J-10C to carry out a high risky demo in front of 10000 people crowd.

BTW, this TVC looks very futuristic, like something out of transformer movies. Unlike the Russian TVC or even the American one.

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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86



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## 帅的一匹

thats a really complete version of J10.


----------



## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 509307


Hopefully, it's not just a static display ...


----------



## LKJ86



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## Cookie Monster

A canard delta with TVC...I wonder if they will perform crazy maneuvers like Russian jets have shown off in the past. I hope they do...can't wait


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10S is still in production!

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 511186
> 
> J-10S is still in production!



Would like to know its production block?


----------



## Beast

Makes sense for the twin seat basic J-10S to be still in production. Acting as a dispensible trainer for J-10 fighter pilot.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> Makes sense for the twin seat basic J-10S to be still in production. Acting as a dispensible trainer for J-10 fighter pilot.



Indeed, however I'm surprised that not a twin-seater of the B/C model exist. The twin seater in this form - as the old J-10AS - is therefore more limited to the training role, which is surely its main intention, but a BS or CS would also open the possibility of greater interoperationality due to the same systems.


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## LKJ86



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## 艹艹艹

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 511331


vectoring

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## ZeEa5KPul

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 511331


*All* J-10's need to look like that.

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## Brainsucker

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 510167
> View attachment 510168



Is this J-10B? If so, why the radome has an antenna?


----------



## clarkgap

Brainsucker said:


> Is this J-10B? If so, why the radome has an antenna?



It is a test platform. So it has some special features.


----------



## Figaro

Have we seen the J-10's MATV demonstration at Zhuhai? Is there any video?


----------



## Brainsucker

clarkgap said:


> It is a test platform. So it has some special features.


 A test platform for what? A new radar?


----------



## lcloo

Brainsucker said:


> A test platform for what? A new radar?


The thing that you referred to is not an antenna, I believe it is a pitot tube. This J10B is a test platform for the vector thrust engine. Pitot tube is an instrument use to measure air speed.

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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Beast



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 512864




Man-eater

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Beast



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## LKJ86



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## luciferdd



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## Akasa

J-10B executing Cobra maneuvers:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1059634434318708737

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1059634725499875328

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1059635046464798721

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1059635641372291072

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1059637061890859008

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1059637267655024645https://twitter.com/dafengcao/status/1059641330350149632
https://twitter.com/OedoSoldier/status/1059643269502644226

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## Figaro

Do we know what exact WS-10 variant utilizes this TVC?


----------



## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/1340723374/4303310686820271

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## nika




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## LKJ86



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## khanasifm

Are ws-10c specs available especially tbo and overall life of engine ?


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## LKJ86



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## clarkgap

khanasifm said:


> Are ws-10c specs available especially tbo and overall life of engine ?



Just normal WS-10.


----------



## khanasifm

clarkgap said:


> Just normal WS-10.



Last time
I read it needed overhaul after 300 hours like f-7 turbojet of 50s era ??? Is that the case ??

Unless it’s meets or exceeds at least Russian engine 800-1000 hours tbo and 2800-4000 hours life it’s not up to par


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## LKJ86



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## clarkgap

khanasifm said:


> Last time
> I read it needed overhaul after 300 hours like f-7 turbojet of 50s era ??? Is that the case ??
> 
> Unless it’s meets or exceeds at least Russian engine 800-1000 hours tbo and 2800-4000 hours life it’s not up to par



PLAF never published it. However, the sortie rate of J-11B and J-16 is pretty high.


----------



## Figaro

clarkgap said:


> Just normal WS-10.


So this J-10 TVC engine is a normal WS-10?


----------



## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/5996312730/4303336045715803

The complete video: https://m.weibo.cn/1240246333/4303337953841375

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## 帅的一匹

finally, congratulations!

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## Beast

khanasifm said:


> Last time
> I read it needed overhaul after 300 hours like f-7 turbojet of 50s era ??? Is that the case ??
> 
> Unless it’s meets or exceeds at least Russian engine 800-1000 hours tbo and 2800-4000 hours life it’s not up to par


LOL... You really believe those hearsay from western? Come on, I trust your IQ level...

If Western claim J-10 TVC can't beat a 1950s era Mig-15 with so called bogus anonymous source or ultra nationalistic American specialist. Will you believe it too?

There hundreds of WS-10 engines properly install onboard J-11B,J-11BS, J-11BSH and J-16 for operational forces. It is a proven modern turbofan engine.

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## Dr Shaheryar

Beast said:


> LOL... You really believe those hearsay from western? Come on, I trust your IQ level...
> 
> If Western claim J-10 TVC can't beat a 1950s era Mig-15 with so called bogus anonymous source or ultra nationalistic American specialist. Will you believe it too?
> 
> There hundreds of WS-10 engines properly install onboard J-11B,J-11BS, J-11BSH and J-16 for operational forces. It is a proven modern turbofan engine.





khanasifm said:


> Last time
> I read it needed overhaul after 300 hours like f-7 turbojet of 50s era ??? Is that the case ??
> 
> Unless it’s meets or exceeds at least Russian engine 800-1000 hours tbo and 2800-4000 hours life it’s not up to par



So basically China will dump its latest stock of Russian Engines in favor of a Chinese Engine comparable to 50's era Russian Engine for its latest 4+ Fighters. I don't think China is that dumb, when they are even producing 5th Generation Fighters.

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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

clarkgap said:


> Just normal WS-10.


WS-10B

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## LKJ86



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## aziqbal

Brilliant display of engineering 

J10 has set the bar high with this one 

Stunning manoeuvres

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## LKJ86



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## siegecrossbow

I wish Dr. Song Wencong could've lived to see his life's work performing world-class maneuvers at Zhuhai!

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## LKJ86

The pilot of J-10B TVC: 李吉宽

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## siegecrossbow

LKJ86 said:


> The pilot of J-10B TVC: 李吉宽
> View attachment 515918



Do we know if he is a combat pilot or test pilot?


----------



## LKJ86

siegecrossbow said:


> Do we know if he is a combat pilot or test pilot?


Test pilot.


----------



## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> Test pilot.


Test pilot is even better than combat pilot. They are the top of the cream. Legendary PLAAF pilot Li ZhongHua is a test pilot.

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## rambro

Beast said:


> Test pilot is even better than combat pilot. They are the top of the cream. Legendary PLAAF pilot Li ZhongHua is a test pilot.


Arent test pilots picked from the airforce best pilots?


----------



## Beast

rambro said:


> Arent test pilots picked from the airforce best pilots?


Yes...


----------



## siegecrossbow

Beast said:


> Test pilot is even better than combat pilot. They are the top of the cream. Legendary PLAAF pilot Li ZhongHua is a test pilot.



Test pilots have to test the whole flight envelope. Of course they are better at flying fancy maneuvers.


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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/1890696165/4303483278368008


----------



## LKJ86



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## 帅的一匹

rambro said:


> Arent test pilots picked from the airforce best pilots?


rarity of raritirs


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

The video of J-10B TVC: https://tieba.baidu.com/p/594066228...07887&unique=F262700B88910FE4FC78A92A819BD5AB


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## khanasifm

https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...ess-on-stealth-fighter-jet-at-zhuhai-airshow/


most Western air forces have concluded that the usage of thrust vectoring for an edge in a dogfight is generally not worth the extra cost, weight and complexity, given “most modern dogfighting missiles have lock-on-after-launch capabilities, 50 G turn rates and relatively large no-escape zones.”


----------



## Beast

khanasifm said:


> https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...ess-on-stealth-fighter-jet-at-zhuhai-airshow/
> 
> 
> most Western air forces have concluded that the usage of thrust vectoring for an edge in a dogfight is generally not worth the extra cost, weight and complexity, given “most modern dogfighting missiles have lock-on-after-launch capabilities, 50 G turn rates and relatively large no-escape zones.”


Don't u know most western countries are plain sourgraped? Can't eat the pie and claim it's sour. They don't implement becos the technology hurdle is too great. You need to have a highly reliable but strong heat withstanding mechanism to ensure it work long hours. It's not as easy as you think. This is tip of the aviation technology.

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## royalharris

poor guy brainwashed by the west

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## luciferdd

J-10C is permitted for selling now

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## Beast

luciferdd said:


> J-10C is permitted for selling now
> 
> View attachment 517433


I am sure there is a J-10D version. TVC engine and maybe CFT tank.

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## khanasifm

Beast said:


> I am sure there is a J-10D version. TVC engine and maybe CFT tank.



Guessing but may be obvious

Length 16.9 m
Width 9.8 m
Height 5.7 m
Combat radius 1350km
Mach 1.8
G -3 - 9
?
Ferry range 2950 km


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## jaybird

khanasifm said:


> Guessing but may be obvious
> 
> Length 16.9 m
> Width 9.8 m
> Height 5.7 m
> Combat radius 1350km
> Mach 1.8
> G -3 - 9
> ?
> Ferry range 2950 km



I think 1350Km is the speed per hour. 1240Km is the Combat radius. 2600Km is air refueling range.


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## LKJ86



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## S10

Hmm the maximum speed of J-10 is only mach 1.8? I always thought it was mach 2.


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## Beast

S10 said:


> Hmm the maximum speed of J-10 is only mach 1.8? I always thought it was mach 2.


Max speed is always very secretive and subjective. For example, max speed at what level? China will never truly reveal the full or specific data.

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## LKJ86



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## khanasifm

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1061146005431873537

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## khanasifm

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1061142995913842688

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86



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## SME11B

Is there any clue as to chinese fighter aesa radar performance? It's there first generation so I wouldn't expect it to be the best.


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## Akasa

SME11B said:


> Is there any clue as to chinese fighter aesa radar performance? It's there first generation so I wouldn't expect it to be the best.



The Chinese had AESA since 2003 onboard their KJ-2000.

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## SME11B

Akasa said:


> The Chinese had AESA since 2003 onboard their KJ-2000.


Yeah but that's not fighter sized, and I was interested in any clue about performance.


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## Muhammad Omar

khanasifm said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1061146005431873537


Disappointing PAF is not interested

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## Beast

Muhammad Omar said:


> Disappointing PAF is not interested


PAF needs to manage it budget well. It is correct not to take J-10 but instead maximize its fund by going for a true 5th gen rather than 4.5th gen.

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## Figaro

SME11B said:


> Is there any clue as to chinese fighter aesa radar performance? It's there first generation so I wouldn't expect it to be the best.


I would expect it to be on par Russian and American AESA radars ... but of course, no concrete figures.



Muhammad Omar said:


> Disappointing PAF is not interested


The Chinese definitely shouldn’t export the J-10 due to the Russian engine. Otherwise, the exports will be complicated by the Russian middle man, like the JF-17. Until the J-10 is mass equipped with WS-10, I can hardly see any bright export prospects.

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## SME11B

Figaro said:


> I would expect it to be on par Russian and American AESA radars ... but of course, no concrete figures.
> 
> 
> The Chinese definitely shouldn’t export the J-10 due to the Russian engine. Otherwise, the exports will be complicated by the Russian middle man, like the JF-17. Until the J-10 is mass equipped with WS-10, I can hardly see any bright export prospects.


They can't be on par with both American and Russian radars, the performance difference between those two is pronounced.


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## Brainsucker

SME11B said:


> They can't be on par with both American and Russian radars, the performance difference between those two is pronounced.



Where do you get that idea from? Do you have concrete data to back your statement?

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## LKJ86

SME11B said:


> Well I wiki'd russian radar performance and went down the line, they were nowhere near as capable as the latest
> US aesa's. They just started fielding them it's not hard to believe. The US is into it's 3rd or 4th generation of aesa radars and started fielding them in the 90s. Example: FGA-35 radar: 3m2 target at 250km/ APG/77v1 1m2 target at 400+km with narrow beam search.
> 
> 
> Not from what I have read. China and russia started their fighter aesa fielding relatively close together but china has a lot more money than russia so that may play a role. What is not clear is the quality of the radars.


You don't need to ask some meaningless questions always. The informations about the weapons used by PLA isn't disclosed.
You can search the ones for export, just like KLJ-7A, LKF601E, and so on. Their informations is public.

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## LKJ86

SME11B said:


> If they are meaningless questions, then statements comparing these systems are likely meaningless as well but I see a lot of that.


You cannot get the informations you need. That is all.

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## Beast

SME11B said:


> If they are meaningless questions, then statements comparing these systems are likely meaningless as well but I see a lot of that. People talk as though they have specific details but then I ask or give reasoning why I rate them another way and I also get questioned. I was just wondering if they knew something I didn't.


PLA only don't talk about domestic use version. Export set data usually are quite accurate. Then export set usually is lower grade than domestic use set. But export set don't necessarily means inferior as domestic requirement is simply too high.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10B

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## graphican

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 519087
> View attachment 519088
> View attachment 519089


These are breathtaking shots... What an eye candy!


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## Deino

serenity said:


> That's all very true guys. Why some people feel the need to announce to the whole world that they are better than China and China sucks? Out of nowhere they do this and for no provocation. It only shows their own insecurity and discomfort at China improving little by little or more. They are uncomfortable with the world changing from them being at top and receiving all the benefits to one where more people are equal. Same reason some white people in USA and Europe are beginning to be VERY sensitive about race and anyone getting close will get in trouble and they blame them for all their problems and all the world's problems. Quickly forget they were biggest criminals to others in the near past. Of course their lapdogs, the most struggling ones are happy to also pull China back down to their level like India, Vietnam and others. They also hate someone else that were same before and now better. It makes them feel like they are useless losers so it's comfortable to talk China back down to their level.
> 
> Other people must show their face and dogshit opinions when not provoked and no one asked them. If they believe USA radar are better. Good. Believe that. Shut up about it because we didn't ask them to inform us with their unprovable dogshit. We didn't say our radar is better. Only our radar technology is improving. BUT there is a misunderstanding here with the American poster. He is originally saying there is discrepancy between words. How can Chinese radar be equal to both Russian and USA radar when it is commonly excepted by almost all military watchers that USA radar is better than Russian ones as far as we think. He is not here to say the above although MANY people around the world do. So let's not confuse this person's accurate observation with what many international trolls do on.




Could you please stay on topic and esp. leave out your propaganda.


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## Deino

SME11B said:


> Don't be a coward and try to shut down discussions you don't feel are going how you like. Are we here to discuss facts and logic or is this a pep rally to repeat things that make us feel good?
> 
> ....



No. Its just plain simple off topic what you are posting. And that's my job.

So take this as a warning... i will clean all off topic stuff later.

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## Deino

A J-10C allegedly in the ETC???

Is that some sort of tail art on the J-10C's fin or just a strange shadow?


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## SME11B

Deino said:


> No. Its just plain simple off topic what you are posting. And that's my job.
> 
> So take this as a warning... i will clean all off topic stuff later.


Only responding to what is posted, so if i'm off topic I'm not the only one.


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## serenity

SME11B is totally not off-topic when asking why Russian and USA radar is said to be same level by the article. Maybe it is because the article's writer thinks both Russian and USA radar are equal. I posted on top to explain that many of the Chinese members are wrong for insisting SME11B is making troll comments even though I understand that Chinese members are coming from someplace. I know there are many troll comments but this one is not. And it is also not off-topic if the article is not off-topic. It flows into another discussion but we can surely bring it back now so sorry about that.


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## LKJ86



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## kuge

serenity said:


> SME11B is totally not off-topic when asking why Russian and USA radar is said to be same level by the article. Maybe it is because the article's writer thinks both Russian and USA radar are equal. I posted on top to explain that many of the Chinese members are wrong for insisting SME11B is making troll comments even though I understand that Chinese members are coming from someplace. I know there are many troll comments but this one is not. And it is also not off-topic if the article is not off-topic. It flows into another discussion but we can surely bring it back now so sorry about that.


i agreed with you too about sme11b....
i m looking forward one day the foreign users will comment on the chinese radar tech..


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## LKJ86

A J-10C crashed on November 9, 2018, and the pilot at the age of 30 died.
It is said that, the pilot ejected himself while the aircraft was flying upside down at a low altitude, and then the aircraft kept flying...
The pilot can fly J-20, J-16, and J-10C.


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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> A J-10C crashed on November 9, 2018, and the pilot at the age of 30 died.
> It is said that, the pilot ejected himself while the aircraft was flying upside down at a low altitude, and then the aircraft kept flying...
> The pilot can fly J-20, J-16, and J-10C.


Sounds like a FBW malfunction since J-10C is so new...

RIP for pilot.


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## rashid.sarwar

I there is HMD on J10C??


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## Deino

Beast said:


> Sounds like a FBW malfunction since J-10C is so new...
> 
> RIP for pilot.



But why do you think it "sounds like a FBW malfunction" if the original post mentioned, that the pilot "ejected himself while the aircraft was flying upside down at a low altitude"??

IMO it sound like a tragic mishap, maybe the altitude was too low to enable a safe ejection in upside-down? ... IMO more likely than to assume a malfunction of the FCS.


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## Beast

Deino said:


> But why do you think it "sounds like a FBW malfunction" if the original post mentioned, that the pilot "ejected himself while the aircraft was flying upside down at a low altitude"??
> 
> IMO it sound like a tragic mishap, maybe the altitude was too low to enable a safe ejection in upside-down? ... IMO more likely than to assume a malfunction of the FCS.


FBW malfunction will cause pilot to lose control over the plane and aircraft flying abnormal. Low attitude flying and upside down is suicide. No pilot will do that unless loses control. Any ejection is also sure dead.


----------



## Deino

Beast said:


> FBW malfunction will cause pilot to lose control over the plane and aircraft flying abnormal. Low attitude flying and upside down is suicide. No pilot will do that unless loses control. Any ejection is also sure dead.



Indeed a possibility, but there are so many different possibilities for a pilot to loose control of its aircraft esp. in low altitude - and FCS malfunction might be one - , so that I would be careful to be so sure. Loosing orientation, simply a tragic pilot error ...

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10C




https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/first-image-of-shaheen-vii-participants.589696/

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## JohnWick

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 524091
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/first-image-of-shaheen-vii-participants.589696/


send some more.........


----------



## Path-Finder

LKJ86 said:


> A J-10C crashed on November 9, 2018, and the pilot at the age of 30 died.
> It is said that, the pilot ejected himself while the aircraft was flying upside down at a low altitude, and then the aircraft kept flying...
> The pilot can fly J-20, J-16, and J-10C.


RIP


----------



## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> FBW malfunction will cause pilot to lose control over the plane and aircraft flying abnormal. Low attitude flying and upside down is suicide. No pilot will do that unless loses control. Any ejection is also sure dead.


F22 faced he same problem when flying low l.

The pilot is only 30 years old,damn it. What a loss!

Now PLAAF pushes very aggressively in daily excercise, more casualty is expected.


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## Maxpane

Rip


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## LKJ86

wanglaokan said:


> Now PLAAF pushes very aggressively in daily excercise, more casualty is expected.


Obviously.


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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86

J-10A

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> But why do you think it "sounds like a FBW malfunction" if the original post mentioned, that the pilot "ejected himself while the aircraft was flying upside down at a low altitude"??
> 
> IMO it sound like a tragic mishap, maybe the altitude was too low to enable a safe ejection in upside-down? ... IMO more likely than to assume a malfunction of the FCS.



He said that based on the F16 fly by wire flaws cases back then which caused numbers of fatal F16s crashes.

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## Chimgathar

Guys is there any news about conformal fuel tanks for J-10C, I saw some CGI renders few months back.


----------



## ozranger

Chimgathar said:


> Guys is there any news about conformal fuel tanks for J-10C, I saw some CGI renders few months back.



They did quite a lot wind tunnel tests on it but finally figured out that it is not cost effective.

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## siegecrossbow

Chimgathar said:


> Guys is there any news about conformal fuel tanks for J-10C, I saw some CGI renders few months back.



The CGI renders by Gaoshan probably go several years back.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10S

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## LKJ86

J-10A

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## Globalwarrior

Beautiful bird


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Maxpane

Beautiful indeed


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## LKJ86



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## Maxpane

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 527122


Beauty


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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86

J-10S

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86




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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 527619


which missile ....???


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## Maxpane

J 10 c looks more beautiful

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## LKJ86

HRK said:


> which missile ....???


YJ-91

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## LKJ86

J-10B

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## LKJ86

The video of J-10C:
https://m.weibo.cn/6005843218/4320836623723942

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## Maxpane

Wow


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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> The video of J-10C:
> https://m.weibo.cn/6005843218/4320836623723942
> View attachment 528421


GB500 LGB

















https://m.weibo.cn/5596911390/4320880853272350

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10B TVC made its maiden flight on December 25, 2017.

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> GB500 LGB
> View attachment 528521
> View attachment 528522
> View attachment 528523
> View attachment 528524
> View attachment 528525
> 
> 
> https://m.weibo.cn/5596911390/4320880853272350



These are indeed the newer ones with a proportional navigation seeker. So far I only know its export designation GB500. Does anyone know their PLAAF designation?

http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/missiles-iii.html


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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 528652
> View attachment 528653
> View attachment 528654
> View attachment 528655




But these are the older original LS-500J


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> A J-10C crashed on November 9, 2018, and the pilot at the age of 30 died.
> It is said that, the pilot ejected himself while the aircraft was flying upside down at a low altitude, and then the aircraft kept flying...
> The pilot can fly J-20, J-16, and J-10C.

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## 055_destroyer

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 528865


I guess the desire to win is too great.


----------



## ozranger

055_destroyer said:


> I guess the desire to win is too great.


TVC is needed as it can save the aircraft when stalling happens after over limit maneuvers.


----------



## 055_destroyer

ozranger said:


> TVC is needed as it can save the aircraft when stalling happens after over limit maneuvers.


It supposed not to stall with Digital FBW. More like Pilot make steep plunged and overestimate it.


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## rashid.sarwar

No HMD/S on J10C??


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## LKJ86



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## Deino

Impressive image of a J-10C from the rarely seen 177th Air Brigade, sometimes known as 66th Brigade.

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## Maxpane



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## LKJ86



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## Akasa

Maxpane said:


> View attachment 530362



Photoshopped.


----------



## Maxpane

Akasa said:


> Photoshopped.


ohh. sorry i didnt know that


----------



## Akasa

Maxpane said:


> ohh. sorry i didnt know that



No need to apologize; these faked images are everywhere.


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## Maxpane

am going to delete it


Akasa said:


> No need to apologize; these faked images are everywhere.


----------



## Deino

Akasa said:


> Photoshopped.




I would even say these are plastic models.


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10S

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-7MF

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## LKJ86



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## Brainsucker

LKJ86 said:


> J-7MF
> View attachment 531571
> View attachment 531572
> View attachment 531573
> View attachment 531574
> View attachment 531575
> View attachment 531576



What is this J-7MF? A new design for future Chinese Fighter?


----------



## Deino

Brainsucker said:


> What is this J-7MF? A new design for future Chinese Fighter?




It was a conceptual design for a possible export related and PLAAF updated version.


----------



## LKJ86

Brainsucker said:


> What is this J-7MF? A new design for future Chinese Fighter?


It is a conceptual design of CAC in 2000.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Maxpane

which missle is this on firzt pic?


LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 534806
> View attachment 534807
> View attachment 534808
> View attachment 534809
> View attachment 534810
> View attachment 534811


----------



## LKJ86

Maxpane said:


> which missle is this on firzt pic?


YJ-91


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 536068




I would love to now from which production batch.


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## cirr



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Kompromat

4 AAMs is a disappointing payload for J-10.


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## LKJ86

Horus said:


> 4 AAMs is a disappointing payload for J-10.


What do you mean?

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## LKJ86

J-10A

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## LKJ86



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## JohnWick

@LKJ86 
J-10 is still much inferior to
Rafale Typhoon and Gripen.


LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 538544
> View attachment 538545


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## LKJ86

JohnWick said:


> @LKJ86
> J-10 is still much inferior to
> Rafale Typhoon and Gripen.


How can you prove your conclusion?

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> How can you prove your conclusion?


No he cannot, and I'm almost sure none here in this forum has the ability or access to such data to prove that but given his general habit, it is not his intention. All he wants is to provoke...

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## LKJ86

JohnWick said:


> The Great Brtian spend billions of dollars on *Eurofighters *and *Rafales* .


Interesting...

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## Beast

JohnWick said:


> Oh seriously .... Well enjoy your time in the chinese wizard of OZ.... But in the real world..Spain,Germany,Itly,India,Egypt,Saudi Arabia,Austria,Qatar,France and
> The Great Brtian spend billions of dollars on *Eurofighters *and *Rafales *.
> So the whole world is foolish and mentally challenged to buy these aircraft instead of living J-10 ?
> 
> You are always welcome in the real world!


Hi @Deino, please delete this poster post. He is not here for meaningful debate but looking for trouble.

A country always want to support their own industries and technology even its inferior.

Ask India why they need LCA program even they are better option from Sweden, France and GB?

So by your theory, JF-17 program shall also be dropped since they are better option like F-16V?

Why would GB or France buys J-10 even it maybe better than their planes? It does not support NATO network nor create jobs for their own countries.. All the countries you mention are allies of western countries, politics do play apart in many militarizes deal. 

Your reasoning is rubbish.

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## ZedZeeshan

JohnWick said:


> @LKJ86
> J-10 is still much inferior to
> Rafale Typhoon and Gripen.


Really...


----------



## The Eagle

Members are advised to refrain from derailment of thread. These comparisons have been discussed on many occasions respectively. Members involved, are banned from thread. Please get back to the topic.

Regards,

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## bahadur999

What is the main differences between J-10A and C?

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## LKJ86

bahadur999 said:


> What is the main differences between J-10A and C?


In PLAAF, J-10A, J-10S, J-11A, J-11B, J-11BS, Su-27SK, Su-27UBK, Su-30MKK are 3-generation fighter aircrafts, while J-10B, J-10C, J-16, and Su-35SK are 3.5-generation fighter aircrafts.
That is the main difference between J-10A and J-10C.

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## LKJ86

J-10B

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## LKJ86

J-10B

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10S

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Interesting

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## HRK

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 539549
> 
> Interesting


what interesting ... ??? translate plz


----------



## lcloo

HRK said:


> what interesting ... ??? translate plz


On the projected scrren, it said: " During a 2016 air-air exercise, one J10B engaged 4 SU-27, and was able to achieve a detect first and shoot first score."

However, we have to note that said SU-27 refers to the earliest batch of imported flankers entering PLAAF service, it has inferior radar compares J10B and other later J11 variants. All Chinese made flankers are considered as J11 series, not SU-27.

Latest Golden Helmet competition would give you a better perspective view regarding air-to air engagements between J10, J11, J16 and J20.

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## LKJ86



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## HRK

lcloo said:


> On the projected scrren, it said: " During a 2016 air-air exercise, one J10B engaged 4 SU-27, and was able to achieve a detect first and shoot first score."
> 
> However, we have to note that said SU-27 refers to the earliest batch of imported flankers entering PLAAF service, it has inferior radar compares J10B and other later J11 variants. All Chinese made flankers are considered as J11 series, not SU-27.
> 
> Latest Golden Helmet competition would give you a better perspective view regarding air-to air engagements between J10, J11, J16 and J20.


and in what reference F-35 pic is shown ...??

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## LKJ86

HRK said:


> what interesting ... ??? translate plz


1. There was 1 J-10B vs. 4 Su-27s in 2016. J-10B took the initiative of discovering and firing the goals, and won with 4:0.

2. In defensive situations of system conflict, J-10B has the ability to contend with F-35.

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## LKJ86



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## bahadur999

LKJ86 said:


> In PLAAF, J-10A, J-10S, J-11A, J-11B, J-11BS, Su-27SK, Su-27UBK, Su-30MKK are 3-generation fighter aircrafts, while J-10B, J-10C, J-16, and Su-35SK are 3.5-generation fighter aircrafts.
> That is the main difference between J-10A and J-10C.


But for example J-10A and B. What are the differences? do they have the same specs and just the avionics are different?


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## LKJ86

bahadur999 said:


> But for example J-10A and B. What are the differences? do they have the same specs and just the avionics are different?

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## bahadur999

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 539900


I am sorry for my misunderstanding/stupidity but i don't see any major difference. (I assume the upper photo is A and the other is B)


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## LKJ86

J-10S


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1098103560359665664

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

February 27, 2019

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 543360




Any idea, where and to what event?


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## Wow

We need these beast in the Paf at least a squadron because Paf 5th generation project a least take a decade these would be perfect stop gap to replace our aging mirages and f7's

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## 帅的一匹

Wow said:


> We need these beast in the Paf at least a squadron because Paf 5th generation project a least take a decade these would be perfect stop gap to replace our aging mirages and f7's


as interceptor, cause J 10 is really fast.

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## Wow

wanglaokan said:


> as interceptor, cause J 10 is really fast.


24 of these babies would fit right in with the Paf along with block 3 jf17 now thats deadly 

now that we know Chinese equipment works with the best on them 

Does any version of the j 10 carry aesa radar!?

can anyone fill me on this


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## Beethoven

J10 C has an AESA radar @Wow



LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 541652
> View attachment 541653
> View attachment 541654


Translation please


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10AH & J-10SH

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## Pindi Boy

cirr said:


>


Sir is there twin seat version of J10


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## Pindi Boy

LKJ86 said:


> J-10AH & J-10SH
> View attachment 544431
> View attachment 544432
> View attachment 544433
> View attachment 544434


Sir can you tell about what's difference between j10 c j10 s j10 Ah


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## LKJ86

Pindi Boy said:


> Sir can you tell about what's difference between j10 c j10 s j10 Ah


J-10A, J-10S, J-10B, and J-10C are for PLAAF, while J-10AH and J-10SH for PLAN (navy versions of J-10A and J-10S).

J-10A and J-10S






J-10A and J-10B

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## ozranger

Pindi Boy said:


> Sir is there twin seat version of J10



J-10S is the twin seat model.

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## Daniel808

Pindi Boy said:


> Sir can you tell about what's difference between j10 c j10 s j10 Ah



You can read this, to know the difference of all J-10 variants

http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/fighters-ii.html?m=1

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

LKJ86 said:


> J-10A, J-10S, J-10B, and J-10C are for PLAAF, while J-10AH and J-10SH for PLAN (navy versions of J-10A and J-10S).
> 
> J-10A and J-10S
> View attachment 544441
> 
> 
> J-10A and J-10B
> View attachment 544442



J-10A looks ugly. J-10B looks fantastic.

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## LKJ86



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## AMG_12

Will the earlier J-10 models be upgraded to B or C standard or replaced?


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## lcloo

J10A production began in 2002 or 2004, so early batches are already due for upgrade refits but we have not seen any evidence so far for MLU. If using J11A upgrade as example, most likely J10A will receive upgrade on mostly electronic sensor, including a new radar. 

Priority will be using available resources to make new J10C, J16 and J20, thus funding for J10A upgrade will be minimum, just enough for it to perform in 2nd line air defence in taking over the roles of J7 and J8.

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## LKJ86

J-10B and J-10S

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## Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA

More details of China J-10B

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## LKJ86



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## Khafee

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 547855


J10B and J10C look "almost" identical. I would love to see someone post details about their difference.

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## LKJ86

Khafee said:


> J10B and J10C look "almost" identical. I would love to see someone post details about their difference.


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chen...-news-discussions.3218/page-604#post-10606814

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## Khafee

LKJ86 said:


> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chen...-news-discussions.3218/page-604#post-10606814


Sir, Thank You for the link, but specs wise is what I was looking for.


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## Daniel808

Khafee said:


> Sir, Thank You for the link, but specs wise is what I was looking for.



http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/fighters-ii.html?m=1

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## LKJ86

500th J-10

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## LKJ86

J-10S

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10 made its maiden flight on March 23, 1998:
https://m.weibo.cn/2656274875/4352685983199466

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> J-10 made its maiden flight on March 23, 1998:
> https://m.weibo.cn/2656274875/4352685983199466
> View attachment 548443
> View attachment 548444
> View attachment 548445
> View attachment 548446
> View attachment 548447


The father of J-10, 宋文骢, passed away on March 22, 2016.

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## LKJ86



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## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> The father of J-10, 宋文骢, passed away on March 22, 2016.
> View attachment 548486
> View attachment 548487
> View attachment 548488
> View attachment 548489


Here's a handy, concise, straight (no detected spin/twist at this particular page) English page on the chief designer, *Song Wencong* 宋文骢〔宋文驄〕 :

Song Wencong was born on 26 March *1930, in Kunming, Yunnan*, with his *ancestral home in Dali, Yunnan*. He joined a youth organization of the Communist Party of China by the end of 1948. He enlisted in the Yunnan-Guangxi-Guizhou border region column of PLA in July 1949 as a scout. In *May 1951*, he joined the Chinese People's Volunteer Army to fight against the American-led United Nations forces in the *Korean War*. In *August 1954*, he was accepted to Harbin Institute of Military Engineering (*now Harbin Engineering University*), where he *majored in aircraft engine *at the Air Force Engineering Department. After graduating in *July 1960* he was assigned to Shenyang 601 Design Institute as a designer. He was a designer of Chengdu 611 Design Institute from 1970 to 1974, and he was elected deputy chief designer for 1977 and chief designer for 1980.

*At the age of 56, he was appointed chief designer of the Chengdu J-10*.

In *2003*, he was elected as member of the *Chinese Academy of Engineering*.

*He was honored as one of the top ten people touching China in 2009.*

_Song was also honored by the second prize of National Scientific and Technological Progress Award._
*
On 22 March 2016, Song died at 301 Military Hospital in Beijing, aged 85.*

The source (Wiki).



LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 548766
> View attachment 548767
> View attachment 548768
> View attachment 548769
> View attachment 548770


WOW! The Chief Designer himself handed over the bouquet to the testing pilot of the J-10 upon the successful maiden flight! What a big honor! No wonder the pilot's eyes were filled up with his falling tears. So touching those very sentimental pictures, they were telling a lot beyond words the great challenges, difficulties, pressures… and eventually the great delights, reliefs and great satisfaction upon completing the flight trial successfully… in 1998

(not yet set my eyes into this field, still occupied with life, heard nothing, learned nothing back then, info was scarce to where I live, almost nonexistent, was in total darkness)

~~~~~~


I happened to just stumble across this link of the top three aircraft designers in China nowadays, and at least two of them once worked closely with the late Song Wencong as his assistant or deputy, thus I simply stick it here.

An interesting read of the Chinese three top aircraft designers: *Yang Wei, Tang Changhong and the female designer, Zhao Xia*.

_Most stars aviation class! A bright class from the Northwestern Polytechnical University having the J-20, Y-20 and J-15 chief designers_

By jiaotong916 at 2018-10-17
(seemingly a machine translation but it's still intelligible)

http://chinesenewsfeed.com/article/cdd679043dffd0bd





_Yang Wei 杨伟_





_*Yang Wei 杨伟 (center) was admitted into the Northwestern Polytechnical University at 15 years old and graduated at 22*_





_Tang Changhong 唐长虹_





_Zhao Xia 赵霞, the first female deputy chief engineer (of J-15)_

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## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> In PLAAF, J-10A, J-10S, J-11A, J-11B, J-11BS, Su-27SK, Su-27UBK, Su-30MKK are 3-generation fighter aircrafts, while J-10B, J-10C, J-16, and Su-35SK are 3.5-generation fighter aircrafts.
> That is the main difference between J-10A and J-10C.


Just for clarification, the 3rd-gen and 3.5 generation that you mentioned here are according to the Chinese standard or int'l standard? Cuz the 4th-gen of China (the J-20) equals to the 5th-gen of int'l standard.

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## LKJ86



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## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 549067
> View attachment 549068
> View attachment 549070
> View attachment 549071
> View attachment 549072
> View attachment 549073
> View attachment 549074
> View attachment 549075


*J-10 fighter jets of China's Bayi Aerobatic Team perform during Pakistan Day
parade.*

Published on 24 March 2019 – Xinhua





_#J-10 fighter jets of the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force's August 1st aerobatics team perform during an air show to mark the *Pakistan National Day* in Islamabad, capital of Pakistan, on *March 23, 2019*._


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1109992886656008197

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## Umar Nazir

LKJ86 said:


> J-10A and J-10S
> View attachment 549562
> View attachment 549563
> View attachment 549564
> View attachment 549565
> View attachment 549566
> View attachment 549567


lov to c 36 J-10c in Pakistan Air Force

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 549819



Is this image mirrored?? ... or why is the IFR-probe on the wrong side?


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## LKJ86

@Beast

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 549963
> 
> @Beast




Could you please provide a translation?


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## jaybird

Deino said:


> Could you please provide a translation?


Roughly something like this. Yankee is one of those big shrimp I think.

_Yankee reconnaissance post._
_
At last, because Malaysia Air Force had a very deep impression of our J-10 type fighter jets
while visiting China before. How to let them make the logical choice required negotiation skills._

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## cirr



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## j20blackdragon

cirr said:


>



We know each J-10B/C batch has at least 59 aircraft.

J-10C 2.59

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/921308483470835712
We now have pictures of J-10C 3.39

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1111530639491244032
3 * 59 = 177

At least 177 PESA/AESA radars in the air for the J-10 family.

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## Riz

cirr said:


>


Its possible to install CFT on j-10c like Pak have on F-16 block 52???


----------



## Hassannn85

Guys when you see planes fly during airshows what do you glean from it? Can you assess their capabilities even partially? What aspects do you look at during maneuvers? Whats the yardstick?

Thank you.


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## j20blackdragon

j20blackdragon said:


> We know each J-10B/C batch has at least 59 aircraft.
> 
> J-10C 2.59
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/921308483470835712
> We now have pictures of J-10C 3.39
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1111530639491244032
> 3 * 59 = 177
> 
> At least 177 PESA/AESA radars in the air for the J-10 family.



Furthermore, the current 177 aircraft count has now far surpassed the 123 AL-31FN Series 3 engines purchased in 2011.

Something to think about for the naysayers.

http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2011/07/123-af-31fn-engine-as-ordered-by-china.html

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## Beast

j20blackdragon said:


> Furthermore, the current 177 aircraft count has now far surpassed the 123 AL-31FN Series 3 engines purchased in 2011.
> 
> Something to think about for the naysayers.
> 
> http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2011/07/123-af-31fn-engine-as-ordered-by-china.html


Not to mention old engine need to be replaced and j-20 is twin engine.



LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 549963
> 
> @Beast


China will not sell them J-10. Ask them get JF-17.

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## LKJ86



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## Avicenna

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 549963
> 
> @Beast



What does this say?


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10A

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## Ali_Baba

Can the J10A series be upgraded to J10C ? Are there major structural issues that would prevent it? Looking at the J10A intake, and how much better the J10C will operate, is there scope for a midlife upgrade that brings J10A to J10C standards?

The avionics and weapon system upgrades, alone are worth doing. Question is if structural upgrades are possible.

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## lcloo

Ali_Baba said:


> Can the J10A series be upgraded to J10C ? Are there major structural issues that would prevent it? Looking at the J10A intake, and how much better the J10C will operate, is there scope for a midlife upgrade that brings J10A to J10C standards?
> 
> The avionics and weapon system upgrades, alone are worth doing. Question is if structural upgrades are possible.


Instead of upgrading fully to J10C spec, early batches of J10A is expected to be upgraded mainly on electronic sensors only. Structural upgrade is too expensive. Money allocated under military budget would be better spend on newly build J10C, J16 and J20.

Old J10A would soon be redeployed to second line defence, replacing J7, J8 and may be SU-27SK and early batches of J11. Production of J10A started in 2002, so some of them will soon reach retirement age anyway and may not worth to upgrade them.

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## Han Patriot

lcloo said:


> Instead of upgrading fully to J10C spec, early batches of J10A is expected to be upgraded mainly on electronic sensors only. Structural upgrade is too expensive. Money allocated under military budget would be better spend on newly build J10C, J16 and J20.
> 
> Old J10A would soon be redeployed to second line defence, replacing J7, J8 and may be SU-27SK and early batches of J11. Production of J10A started in 2002, so some of them will soon reach retirement age anyway and may not worth to upgrade them.


They are almost 18 years old, yet the LCA is still not fully accepted by IAF. Amazing.

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## rcrmj

J-10A recieves small upgrades every 2 to 3 years`````the first patch of J-10A is quite different today than what it was first rolled out of the line````every 5 to 10 years, they will recieve major upgrades.

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## LKJ86

J-10AH

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## LKJ86

https://m.weibo.cn/3537475235/4374509710420854

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10AY and J-10SY

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## Windjammer



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Happy Children's Day!

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 563016
> 
> Happy Children's Day!




 Indeed, even if I at first sight had the small hope it would be a glimpse of the rumoured J-10D. 

Any news on this secret variant?

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## jaybird

Deino said:


> Indeed, even if I at first sight had the small hope it would be a glimpse of the rumoured J-10D.
> 
> Any news on this secret variant?



Look at the fighter jet drawing on the computer screen. And the diagram on the floor. Maybe the smaller one on the left side is the secret variant with twin engines.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Nein

I dont want to troll or ask a stupid question but I read the J10 is based on the cancelled Israeli IAI Lavi jet fighter.

It is said that Israel sold the design and everything to China.

To any Chinese members how much of this is true?? Or is it just a lie?

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## Pangu

Nein said:


> I dont want to troll or ask a stupid question but I read the J10 is based on the cancelled Israeli IAI Lavi jet fighter.
> 
> It is said that Israel sold the design and everything to China.
> 
> To any Chinese members how much of this is true?? Or is it just a lie?



This controversial question pop-up time and again. Israel denied it. China also denied it. So the answer is no, J10 is not Lavi, is this the answer you are looking for?

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## lcloo

Nein said:


> I dont want to troll or ask a stupid question but I read the J10 is based on the cancelled Israeli IAI Lavi jet fighter.
> 
> It is said that Israel sold the design and everything to China.
> 
> To any Chinese members how much of this is true?? Or is it just a lie?


This has been debate for more than ten years. Simple answer is no.

J10 is a further development of cancelled J9 (pix below) with revised air intake, and J9 pre-dates F-16/ Lavi.

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## Nein

lcloo said:


> This has been debate for more than ten years. Simple answer is no.
> 
> J10 is a further development of cancelled J9 (pix below), and J9 pre-dates F-16/ Levi.
> 
> View attachment 565783



Okay thanks I was just wondering about it. Basically proves the point that China's jet fighter program was basically started from scratch than the usual China stole this or copy argument which a lot of people love to use.

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## Deino

Nein said:


> I dont want to troll or ask a stupid question but I read the J10 is based on the cancelled Israeli IAI Lavi jet fighter.
> 
> It is said that Israel sold the design and everything to China.
> 
> To any Chinese members how much of this is true?? Or is it just a lie?





Pangu said:


> This controversial question pop-up time and again. Israel denied it. China also denied it. So the answer is no, J10 is not Lavi, is this the answer you are looking for?



The point is, it is de fact not a copy and everyone who denies this is as stupid as those who claim the FC-31 is a clone or 1:1 copy of the F-35. Just look at the size, the dimensions and so on, It cannot be a copy albeit is is surely influenced by it and borrows certain design characteristics in the same way the FC-31 is similar to the F-35, or the Airbus A320 to the C919.










On the other side, it is also undeniable that there were some closer contacts between IAI and CAC as proven by this image showing the IAI Lavi + a Chinese delegation including Song Wencong somewhere in the 198xs.








lcloo said:


> This has been debate for more than ten years. Simple answer is no.
> J10 is a further development of cancelled J9 (pix below) with revised air intake, and J9 pre-dates F-16/ Lavi.




Yes for sure, but it is also undeniable, that there were contacts ... and we all know also how the J-9 evolved thru a very-Lavi-like design to the final J-10 as we know it today.

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## lcloo

Deino said:


> The point is, it is de fact not a copy and everyone who denies this is as stupid as those who claim the FC-31 is a clone or 1:1 copy of the F-35. Just look at the size, the dimensions and so on, It cannot be a copy albeit is is surely influenced by it and borrows certain design characteristics in the same way the FC-31 is similar to the F-35, or the Airbus A320 to the C919.
> 
> View attachment 565784
> View attachment 565785
> 
> 
> On the other side, it is also undeniable that there were some closer contacts between IAI and CAC as proven by this image showing the IAI Lavi + a Chinese delegation including Song Wencong somewhere in the 198xs.
> 
> View attachment 565786
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes for sure, but it is also undeniable, that there were contacts ... and we all know also how the J-9 evolved thru a very-Lavi-like design to the final J-10 as we know it today.
> 
> View attachment 565787
> View attachment 565788



Yes, it is true that Israelis did help, mostly I think on solving technical difficulties encountered by Chinese during J10's development. Instead of direct copy the Lavi design, plane form design based on Lavi might take place to solve aerodynamic issues.

Lavi's development is strongly influenced by Mirage III, Kfir fighter jet and F-16. J10's design is heavily influenced by the 1970s era J9, with probable assistance on modernised design from Israelis. However, it would be incorrect to describe J10 is a copy of Lavi.

Israelis were quite close in technical cooperation with China in may fields, until they were told to stop by the Americans.

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## serenity

Deino's answer is perfect.

Israel's involvement and help with J-10 program is in highest degree in area of fly by wire systems. So many national efforts dealing with designing complex FBW and there was assistance from Soviets and Israel. Although their assistance helped by who knows how much, the accepted beliefs are they were at least a little bit involved. J-10 has certain resemblance to Lavi just like F-15 has certain resemblance to Mig-25 or Airbus has with Boeing and Eurofighter has with X-31. However the balance, airflow, controls, and other important aerodynamic considerations between the J-10 and Lavi are different enough to force J-10 designers to completely use a totally different set of flight controls. This is real engineering and not simple look and copy. The details are so important and overlooked by stupids who cry copy all day. Now the fundamental design of canard and layout is following Lavi's certainly just like a year 2000 BMW design layout may follow a year 1999 Benz. That's as far as the important things go.

What is really important here is actually the FBW and apparently the assistance from Israel. This is unconfirmed but suspected theory by many. Officially Chinese authorities are quiet so even if true or false, they won't say because it doesn't matter to them and will continue to not matter in coming years.

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## jaybird

Low flying J-10 from OedoSoldier.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1141214580355428354

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1151471325648760832

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## Su33KUB

serenity said:


> Deino's answer is perfect.
> 
> Israel's involvement and help with J-10 program is in highest degree in area of fly by wire systems. So many national efforts dealing with designing complex FBW and there was assistance from Soviets and Israel. Although their assistance helped by who knows how much, the accepted beliefs are they were at least a little bit involved. J-10 has certain resemblance to Lavi just like F-15 has certain resemblance to Mig-25 or Airbus has with Boeing and Eurofighter has with X-31. However the balance, airflow, controls, and other important aerodynamic considerations between the J-10 and Lavi are different enough to force J-10 designers to completely use a totally different set of flight controls. This is real engineering and not simple look and copy. The details are so important and overlooked by stupids who cry copy all day. Now the fundamental design of canard and layout is following Lavi's certainly just like a year 2000 BMW design layout may follow a year 1999 Benz. That's as far as the important things go.
> 
> What is really important here is actually the FBW and apparently the assistance from Israel. This is unconfirmed but suspected theory by many. Officially Chinese authorities are quiet so even if true or false, they won't say because it doesn't matter to them and will continue to not matter in coming years.


Lavi had not a single aircraft configuration but several, in order to choose one they had to test different aerodynamic variants just for a canard or wing besides the structure uses several new innovative solutions that implies thousands of research hours, this transform into data, that data can be sold and that data offers several different wings all customized to different flight envelopes, the aircraft are different, true the research is not, make an aircraft means many thousands hours of research, the research costs, time and money they simply bought the Lavi data ask Russian aerodynamic institutes to help, and their own research was cobble together with the Lavi information


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## ozranger

Aerodynamics wide, Lavi has the least contribution to J-10 development. Lavi has major design flaw and the Israelis have much less experience on delta-canard configuration than Institute 611.

From a couple of different sources, I can see that

- Israelis helped on FBW and especially hardware.
- Frenches helped on FBW design software and probably with some coding exercise. I guess they might sold some of their Rafale knowledge and experience.
- Russians helped on the engine.
- Aerodynamic design is a continuation of one of J-9 propositions.


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## Deino

ozranger said:


> Aerodynamics wide, Lavi has the least contribution to J-10 development. Lavi has major design flaw and the Israelis have much less experience on delta-canard configuration than Institute 611.
> ...
> - Frenches helped on FBW design software and probably with some coding exercise. I guess they might sold some of their Rafale knowledge and experience.
> ...
> View attachment 569927




Surely not. The Lavi was a most successful design, even so much that the US killed it since it eas a danger for future F-16 sales. So do say it it was a flawed design and had issues is plain wrong and simply false.
The number different design iterations of the J-9 is also irrelevant, since if you compare how many variations of the Lavi were studied, you would know that the Israeli had probably even more experience since they actually had flying delta designs in use at a time, when China was still trying. 

Concerning the Rafale, this is simply impossible, since the design of the J-10 and its FCS was done, before before the Rafale demonstrator even flew.

So please do your homework before claiming nonsense.
Otherwise you are correct.

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## Su33KUB

ozranger said:


> Aerodynamics wide, Lavi has the least contribution to J-10 development. Lavi has major design flaw and the Israelis have much less experience on delta-canard configuration than Institute 611.
> 
> From a couple of different sources, I can see that
> 
> - Israelis helped on FBW and especially hardware.
> - Frenches helped on FBW design software and probably with some coding exercise. I guess they might sold some of their Rafale knowledge and experience.
> - Russians helped on the engine.
> - Aerodynamic design is a continuation of one of J-9 propositions.
> 
> View attachment 569927


Lavi had a ITR higher with less TWR, carrying a higher fuel fraction than F-16, to put it simple a Lavi was capable to out turn an F-16 even having less thrust.

read this link
http://john-golan.blogspot.com/2016/05/lavi-engineers-perspective.html

research means the Israelites studied not only the configuration you know now as a Lavi, just to mention they studied several intake types and vertical tails configurations they had a twin tails on booms version without no ventral fins, another publicly known version was a Gripen look alike Lavi ,When the Chinese delegation visited Israel obviously they went to get not a Lavi because the Lavi had a very low power engine of american design, they went to collect data on all the lavi studies to adapt the Al-31 to their design the asked SiBbia in Russia to help to verify and refine the Chinese design, the J-10 has Lavi DNA not because they are identical but because data which is more important was transferred, data means all the different aerodynamic, structural data they could get, however aircraft have millions of parts so Lavi had thousands of suppliers, many in the west. so the Chinese by acquiring that data could replace with local content those suppliers, except the engine, radar and some avionics, but by acquiring the data the save thousands of research hours, and they could build a design that was more or less as advanced as a Gripen, the J-10 had a version almost as a Lavi


see post 16
https://forum.keypublishing.com/forum/modern-military-aviation/141218-israel-s-lavi-fighter-program

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## ozranger

Su33KUB said:


> Lavi had a ITR higher with less TWR, carrying a higher fuel fraction than F-16, to put it simple a Lavi was capable to out turn an F-16 even having less thrust.
> 
> read this link
> http://john-golan.blogspot.com/2016/05/lavi-engineers-perspective.html
> 
> research means the Israelites studied not only the configuration you know now as a Lavi, just to mention they studied several intake types and vertical tails configurations they had a twin tails on booms version without no ventral fins, another publicly known version was a Gripen look alike Lavi ,When the Chinese delegation visited Israel obviously they went to get not a Lavi because the Lavi had a very low power engine of american design, they went to collect data on all the lavi studies to adapt the Al-31 to their design the asked SiBbia in Russia to help to verify and refine the Chinese design, the J-10 has Lavi DNA not because they are identical but because data which is more important was transferred, data means all the different aerodynamic, structural data they could get, however aircraft have millions of parts so Lavi had thousands of suppliers, many in the west. so the Chinese by acquiring that data could replace with local content those suppliers, except the engine, radar and some avionics, but by acquiring the data the save thousands of research hours, and they could build a design that was more or less as advanced as a Gripen, the J-10 had a version almost as a Lavi
> 
> 
> see post 16
> https://forum.keypublishing.com/forum/modern-military-aviation/141218-israel-s-lavi-fighter-program



J-10 just cannot reuse Lavi's aerodynamic data. Lavi has flaws in design on its canard and main wing combination. There is an article in Chinese discussing the issue,

http://dy.163.com/v2/article/detail/CU3AU8IF0515I1K0.html

In short, Lavi's pitch down control is terrible.

Look at the pictures in the article, you can see Lavi's design is very unique and somewhat gone extreme, while canard employed designs from other countries are all different to it.

Unless Israelis move the canards forward and change the main wings to delta wings, they just can't put that into final production.

Saying the Frenches sold their Rafale knowledge to the Chinese while they sold the FBW software would be a lot more credible.

BTW worth pointing out that JAS-39 is very similar to J-10 on canard and main wing combination.


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## Deino

ozranger said:


> ...
> Saying the Frenches sold their Rafale knowledge to the Chinese while they sold the FBW software would be a lot more credible.



Again, how could they have soll their Rafale knowledge if the first Rafale flew only mach later??? It makes no sense


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## ozranger

Deino said:


> Again, how could they have soll their Rafale knowledge if the first Rafale flew only mach later??? It makes no sense



Maybe some early knowledge exchange between these 2 countries. Of course there is no credibility of such claim at all. I made that guess just for fun.

The sale of FBW software seems to be real as a couple of different sources stated that it did happen during the J-10 development.


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## Deino

ozranger said:


> .... Lavi has flaws in design on its canard and main wing combination. There is an article in Chinese discussing the issue,
> 
> http://dy.163.com/v2/article/detail/CU3AU8IF0515I1K0.html
> 
> In short, Lavi's pitch down control is terrible.
> 
> Look at the pictures in the article, you can see Lavi's design is very unique and ....



Please not trying to armchair-analyse ...

You take a Chinese fan-discussion for fact, while all other sources say otherweise ??


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## Su33KUB

ozranger said:


> J-10 just cannot reuse Lavi's aerodynamic data. Lavi has flaws in design on its canard and main wing combination. There is an article in Chinese discussing the issue,
> 
> http://dy.163.com/v2/article/detail/CU3AU8IF0515I1K0.html
> 
> In short, Lavi's pitch down control is terrible.
> 
> Look at the pictures in the article, you can see Lavi's design is very unique and somewhat gone extreme, while canard employed designs from other countries are all different to it.
> 
> Unless Israelis move the canards forward and change the main wings to delta wings, they just can't put that into final production.
> 
> Saying the Frenches sold their Rafale knowledge to the Chinese while they sold the FBW software would be a lot more credible.
> 
> BTW worth pointing out that JAS-39 is very similar to J-10 on canard and main wing combination.


If you read the article by Golan, you will see a detail Lavi was designed with higher lift thus it could out turn the F-16 at lower altitudes and speeds but it had lower thrust to weight ratio, so it accelerated poorly compared to F-16, and it turned poorly at higher speeds compared to F-16, why? the Lavi was not designed to intercept fast aircraft, and they chose a simple fixed ventral intake to reduce weight, so as an interceptor and air superiority was poorly suited, also on turn rate its lower TWR meant F-16 achieved higher STR specially at higher speeds.

the F-16 early configuration will lead you to see the F-16-Lavi-J-10 connection

J-10 is more suited as an interceptor, its profile is sleeker, and in the early version A it has a moveable intake ramp, when you look at J-10, it shares a common position for its ventral fins, coincidence? no it is not, Lavi tested a configuration of tail booms twin vertical fins of higher aerodynamic performance at high AoA than its single dorsal vertical fin and two ventral fins, but as on F-16, they went for single dorsal and twin ventral fins due to lower weight advantages, coincidence? no it is not coincidence because if you look at the wing position it follows the same solution and the single dorsal vertical fin and twin ventral fin reduce weight .
On the J-10, a two-dimensional variable intake air intake is used. Its shape changes due to two movable panels. This design meets the increased requirements for aircraft when conducting air combat. In addition, the use of a variable geometry air intake contributes to an increase in the dynamic pressure in the inlet device (by about 5% with M = 1.5, 15% with M = 1.8 and 25-30% with M = 2) . As a result, significantly improved engine thrust performance and its efficiency at supersonic speeds, which contributes to an increase in maximum speed and acceleration. The main disadvantages of using variable geometry air intake are the increased visibility of the aircraft when the radar is irradiated in the forward hemisphere, the size and weight of the structure increase, the attendant increase in the cost of the aircraft, and the need for additional maintenance of the air inlet control actuators


Look at the Eurofighter, Rafale or Gripen no ventral fins, this has to do with the position of the canard and intake type besides the size of the vertical fins, J-10 shares much more commonality with Lavi than with Eurofighter, its design of J-10 is an improved Lavi with a switch from ground attack role to interceptor/air superiority tasks.

Remember Israel had already F-16s and F-15s, so Lavi was designed as an aircraft it could dogfight if needed, but not as the main air superiority, F-16 went that way too albeit by powering it with higher thrust engines to allow to keep a similar TWR.


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## LKJ86

J-10A

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10A in Russia

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## LKJ86



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## Pampa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 571734


J-10C with WS10 ???


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## LKJ86

Pampa said:


> J-10C with WS10 ???


Yes.

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## Deino

Pampa said:


> J-10C with WS10 ???




YES, ... but we need images


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## LKJ86

The documentary of J-10:

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## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> The documentary of J-10:


《军工记忆Ⅰ》第五集 “歼-10”战斗机 | CCTV纪录

本期节目主要内容： “歼-10”战斗机从科研到制造的每一步，都体现了创新的力量，落实到每个日夜的工作中，却是繁琐、枯燥和不厌其烦的修改、迭代。20年漫长的研制历程，不少人没能等来最后的成功就已经去世，参与“歼-10”研制的绝大多数人都是无名英雄。

*Military Industry Record Session Five “J-10” Jet Fighter | CCTV Documentary*

The main content of this program: "J-10" fighter aircraft from scientific research to manufacturing, every step reflects the power of innovation, implemented in every day and night work, but is cumbersome, boring and tireless modification, iteration. During the 20-year-long development process, many people died before they could wait for the final success. Most of the people who participated in the development of “J-10” were unknown heroes.

A 47-minute footage without English subtitles!

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## lcloo

J10C, silvery engine.

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## Figaro

lcloo said:


> J10C, silvery engine.
> View attachment 571830
> View attachment 571831


Which WS-10 variant is this


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## LKJ86

J-10B

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## Su33KUB

LKJ86 said:


> The documentary of J-10:


nice propaganda, aircraft are not designed with a single intake, canard o delta wing but with several dozen early configurations, to put it simple if you have ever seen how many configurations were studied for F-14, you know some F-14s look like F-15s, others like Tornadoes, for example 303C had submerged engines like F-15 and 303D looked like a Tu-22M3, to believe the wing and canard were only studied, is laughable simply because most designers even using canards and delta also studied aft tails, any way there is a Chinese mock up with F-16 style intakes and canards, of course propaganda needs patriotism and forget some details.


Just look how many concepts were studied for the Eurofighter typhoon


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## LKJ86



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## Su33KUB

early Lavi Study with boxy intake, basically a J-10, plus several configurations, the true aerodynamic history of an aircraft is far more complex than what was presented by the Chinese program

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## LKJ86

J-10B

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> ...
> View attachment 572196




5th Air Brigade's Patch?

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Silicon0000

In this thread .... Out of 100, 99 post are pics shared by LKJ86 and 1 post is Deino confirming is this pic is that pic. 

Apart from joke LKJ86 you made this thread a beautiful collection of J10 Picture Album. Appreciate your efforts.

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> J10C, silvery engine.
> View attachment 571830
> View attachment 571831



Any news on this baby or these babies??



Silicon0000 said:


> In this thread .... Out of 100, 99 post are pics shared by LKJ86 and 1 post is Deino confirming is this pic is that pic.
> 
> Apart from joke LKJ86 you made this thread a beautiful collection of J10 Picture Album. Appreciate your efforts.




Indeed, he is not only the master, but simply the "Doktor"!

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## LKJ86

J-10S and J-10A

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10B

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10S

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Su33KUB

Lavi model? J-10 model forgotten model looking like a Lavi


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## 055_destroyer

Su33KUB said:


> Lavi model? J-10 model forgotten model looking like a Lavi


This proves J-10 design is original. The photo and model plane exist even before lavi project is born.

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## Su33KUB

055_destroyer said:


> This proves J-10 design is original. The photo and model plane exist even before lavi project is born.


picture of 1991 of J-10 with Lavi style configuration 5 years after Lavi first flew, mock up not even with frozen configuration, first flight of J-10 1997


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## LKJ86

The chief designer of J-10 and its model which was made in 1982:

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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> The chief designer of J-10 and its model which was made in 1982:
> View attachment 574109
> View attachment 574110


@Su33KUB, can you stop your pointless rants/trolling now? You are really disrupting an otherwise informative thread.

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## Su33KUB

LKJ86 said:


> The chief designer of J-10 and its model which was made in 1982:
> View attachment 574109
> View attachment 574110


yes specially for the same type of inlet and canards obviously the guy did not go to Israel and the same guy is not pictured with a Lavi single seat model type J-10, you forget that the J-10 has twin ventral fins, larger than IAI Lavi and you can not see the relation of the engine types fitted into IAI Lavi and the real J-10 in relation to the tail size and the wing trailing edge extension were are set the ventral fins follow Karman rules, but guys like you do not understand the wing of the 1982 lacks the IAI lavi ventral fins because the engine made for larger fuselage and J-10 has larger ventral fins than IAI lavi because J-10 is larger than Lavi thanks to Al-31 but well i guess you did not read Alonis paper



Figaro said:


> @Su33KUB, can you stop your pointless rants/trolling now? You are really disrupting an otherwise informative thread.


you are the troll, IAI Lavi influenced J-10 and SibNia from Russia helped, Chendu developed the aircraft but it has lots of Lavi data and tech , but of course you love lies


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## LKJ86

Su33KUB said:


> yes specially for the same type of inlet and canards obviously the guy did not go to Israel and the same guy is not pictured with a Lavi single seat model type J-10


China mainly has two fighter manufacturers: SAC and CAC.

CAC started to persuade PLAAF by using that model from 1982, while SAC also already had its own solution at that moment. And CAC basically got the J-10 project in 1984.

Do you think CAC can beat SAC with nothing?

Look at the model, and you can find that there are no overlapping between canards and delta wings, no wingtip pylons, and single-seat, consistent with J-10A from 1982.

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## LKJ86

Su33KUB said:


> yes specially for the same type of inlet and canards obviously the guy did not go to Israel and the same guy is not pictured with a Lavi single seat model type J-10, you forget that the J-10 has twin ventral fins, larger than IAI Lavi and you can not see the relation of the engine types fitted into IAI Lavi and the real J-10 in relation to the tail size and the wing trailing edge extension were are set the ventral fins follow Karman rules, but guys like you do not understand the wing of the 1982 lacks the IAI lavi ventral fins because the engine made for larger fuselage and J-10 has larger ventral fins than IAI lavi because J-10 is larger than Lavi thanks to Al-31 but well i guess you did not read Alonis paper


In 1983, WP-15 turbojet engine was chose for the new fighter aircraft at that moment, which was bigger in size than AL-31F engine.

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## Su33KUB

LKJ86 said:


> China mainly has two fighter manufacturers: SAC and CAC.
> 
> CAC started to persuade PLAAF by using that model from 1982, while SAC also already had its own solution at that moment. And CAC basically got the J-10 project in 1984.
> 
> Do you think CAC can beat SAC with nothing?
> 
> Look at the model, and you can find that there are no overlapping between canards and delta wings, no wingtip pylons, and single-seat, consistent with J-10A from 1982.
> View attachment 574140


too childish example, Chengdu developed with Chinese research the aircraft J-10 but in order to achieve a shorter development period, they took Lavi data, there were two versions of IAI Lavi each one with a different engine size, the bigger engine version got bigger tail and bigger ventral fins, J-10 has bigger engine thus bigger ventral fins than Lavi, regardless how you want to spin it, the J-10 main engineer went to Israel, the aircraft is not a 1 to 1 copy, but a design with its own requirements developed with IAI Lavi data and tech.

J-10 is a hybrid of Chinese technology, Israeli data and Russian aid, you might not like it, but the F-16 intake of IAI Lavi was on the mock up of 1991 of J-10, is J-10 a pure clon? no it is not, it is an evolution of Lavi? yes it is, a hybrid of several companies, sourced into a Chinese led project.

The simple one shock intake of F-16 was tested on J-10 as it was the boxy multi shock VG intake J-10 tested by IAI Lavi and on F-16 both types have advantages and disadvantages, the J-10 intake is better suit for fast acceleration and supersonic speeds, the mock up J-10 of 1991 with F-16 intake type is lighter thus easier to make, Chengdu re-took it on the DSI fitted J-10, aircraft study several dozens configurations before they freeze on a single one, your vision is not based as how aircraft are made.

I let you these studies of the early F-16 and you can see a 2D intake Chengdu did the same but the visit of the Chinese delegation besides a Lavi proves the link of both projects


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## LKJ86

Su33KUB said:


> too childish example, Chengdu developed with Chinese research the aircraft J-10 but in order to achieve a shorter development period, they took Lavi data, there were two versions of IAI Lavi each one with a different engine size, the bigger engine version got bigger tail and bigger ventral fins, J-10 has bigger engine thus bigger ventral fins than Lavi, regardless how you want to spin it, the J-10 main engineer went to Israel, the aircraft is not a 1 to 1 copy, but a design with its own requirements developed with IAI Lavi data and tech.
> 
> J-10 is a hybrid of Chinese technology, Israeli data and Russian aid, you might not like it, but the F-16 intake of IAI Lavi was on the mock up of 1991 of J-10, is J-10 a pure clon? no it is not, it is an evolution of Lavi? yes it is, a hybrid of several companies, sourced into a Chinese led project.
> 
> The simple one shock intake of F-16 was tested on J-10 as it was the boxy multi shock VG intake J-10 tested by IAI Lavi and on F-16 both types have advantages and disadvantages, the J-10 intake is better suit for fast acceleration and supersonic speeds, the mock up J-10 of 1991 with F-16 intake type is lighter thus easier to make, Chengdu re-took it on the DSI fitted J-10, aircraft study several dozens configurations before they freeze on a single one, your vision is not based as how aircraft are made.


So, in 1982, did Israel already know Lavi must fail before Lavi made its maiden flight?

And in 1982, why didn't PLAAF choose SAC's J-13, if China can't finish J-10 project by herself?

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## Su33KUB

LKJ86 said:


> So, in 1982, did Israel already know Lavi must fail before Lavi made its maiden flight?
> 
> And in 1982, why didn't PLAAF choose SAC's J-13, if China can't finish J-10 project by herself?


tell me what is doing J-10 main designing team besides a Lavi when it is know the US forbade re-export american tech to China after Tiananmen square, you lack common sense, for Chengdu design tean be around a Lavi was not allowed by USA companies like Grumman which was one of the main suppliers of Lavi


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## Deino

@Su33KUB & others ....

Plaese, there is no need to constantly open up any speculations esp. by hiding it in dubious terms like "bigger and smaller" versions.

The development of the J-10 is so clearly confirmed, that there is no space left for arguing they took the Lavi, enlarged it or used a larger version, that's plain wrong.

The development of the J-10 went thru so many different configurations of the J-9 and final early J-10, so that it was externally de facto finished before the Lavi connection came in.

YES, there was an undeniable connection but most of all related to FCS, FBW and eventually refinements, but the J-10 is a J-10 and not a Lavi on steroids. Period.

The mots important changes as mentioned by @LKJ86 came with the change of the engine to the AL-31FN and consequently the introduction of a refined air intake, but these changes are in no way related to the Lavi.

Therefore, no-one denies that there was a certain Israeli involvement and that the J-10 gained some benefit from the Lavi but the J-10 is neither a Lavi-clone - even if some stupid guys still want to portray it that way - nor an enlarged Lavi mated with a Russian engine. That's wrong.

And therefore enough of this stupid endless discussion.

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## Su33KUB

Deino said:


> @Su33KUB & others ....
> 
> Plaese, there is no need to constantly open up any speculations esp. by hiding it in dubious terms like "bigger and smaller" versions.
> 
> The development of the J-10 is so clearly confirmed, that there is no space left for arguing they took the Lavi, enlarged it or used a larger version, that's plain wrong.
> 
> The development of the J-10 went thru so many different configurations of the J-9 and final early J-10, so that it was externally de facto finished before the Lavi connection came in.
> 
> YES, there was an undeniable connection but most of all related to FCS, FBW and eventually refinements, but the J-10 is a J-10 and not a Lavi on steroids. Period.
> 
> The mots important changes as mentioned by @LKJ86 came with the change of the engine to the AL-31FN and consequently the introduction of a refined air intake, but these changes are in no way related to the Lavi.
> 
> Therefore, no-one denies that there was a certain Israeli involvement and that the J-10 gained some benefit from the Lavi but the J-10 is neither a Lavi-clone - even if some stupid guys still want to portray it that way - nor an enlarged Lavi mated with a Russian engine. That's wrong.
> 
> And therefore enough of this stupid endless discussion.


when you understand why J-10 has such ventral fins larger than IAI Lavi you will see there are aerodynamic connections, but i never said is a clone, I clearly said it is Chinese technology, since an aircraft has many equipment that requires many suppliers, but it has direct IAI input something even american and Russian sources said in the form of the karman wing trailing edge extensions that reduce drag and the ventral fins, it is not a clone but the input went into aerodynamics too since you can see the early configuration lack ventral fins and the karman wing trailing edge extensions, and in order to achieve the right size, position and shape or even the idea Chengdu needed hundred hours of research, something that will explain why Chengdu main designer was beside a IAI Lavi on a picture when obviously was not going for drinking tea since the IAI Lavi had several suppliers among one Grumman


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## LKJ86

Su33KUB said:


> when you understand why J-10 has such ventral fins larger than IAI you will see there are aerodynamic connections, but i never said is a clon, I clearly said is is Chinese technology, since an aircraft has many equipment that requires many suppliers, but is has direct IAI input something even american and Russian sources said in the form of the karman wing trailing edge extensions that reduce drag and the ventral fins, it is not a clon but the input went into aerodynamics too since you can see the early configuration lack ventral fins and the karman wing trailing edge extensions, and in order to achieve the right size, position and shape or even the idea Chengdu needed hundred hours of research, something that will explain why Chengdu main designer was beside a IAI Lavi on a picture when obviously was not going for drinking tea since the IAI Lavi had several suppliers among one Grumman


There is a picture of PLAAF and F-22, and so what?

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## Su33KUB

LKJ86 said:


> There is a picture of PLAAF and F-22, and so what?
> View attachment 574152


IAI Lavi had tech from Grumman and China is famous for copying from cars to Lavi, to American flags to Su-27s or you named piracy is a chinese cultural trait, they just renamed it. Speys engines later become domestic, same Russian engines same J-15 called chinese product what a joke for a reason Trump put tariffs


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## LKJ86

Su33KUB said:


> ask trump and he will put you tariffs


It will make us very honored in China.

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## Su33KUB

LKJ86 said:


> It will make us very honored in China.


a Pilot knows how fly aircraft, not make them, Cong knew how to build aircraft, in Israel spoke how to build them but still propaganda machines like you can not understand that difference, any way the Americans reported the Technology was passed and so the Russians, continue with your propaganda, J-10 has technology from Lavi from aerodynamics, flight control systems to avionics weapons and radar, because Israel was 2nd supplier to China of weapons and tech transfers in the 1990s and 2000s it is so lavi it carries copied clones of AAM Python AAMs and ventral fins like Lavi


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## LKJ86

Su33KUB said:


> a Pilot knows how fly aircraft, not make them, Cong knew how to build aircraft, in Israel spoke how to build them but still propaganda machines like you can not understand that difference, any way the Americans reported the Technology was passed and so the Russians, continue with your propaganda, J-10 has technology from Lavi from aerodynamics, flight control systems to avionics weapons and radar, because Israel was 2nd supplier to China of weapons and tech transfers in the 1990s and 2000s it is so lavi it carries copied clones of AAM Python AAMs and ventral fins like Lavi


Many people like you can't accept the development of China, and maybe the theory of copying or stealing can make you more comfortable.

But it can't stop the development of China, and you will need more excuses to mesmerize yourself.

Enjoy your time.

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## Figaro

Su33KUB said:


> or you named piracy is a chinese cultural trait, they just renamed it.


I love your attempts at flame baiting by inserting culture/race (both completely irrelevant) into a technical argument. If I am remember my history courses back in college, it was in fact the Westerners who stole Chinese technologies from silk production to paper making. If the Chinese have a "culture" of copying, then doesn't everyone in the Western world have that trait as well? Why should we treat different periods of time any differently?



Su33KUB said:


> a Pilot knows how fly aircraft, not make them, Cong knew how to build aircraft, in Israel spoke how to build them but still propaganda machines like you can not understand that difference, any way the Americans reported the Technology was passed and so the Russians, continue with your propaganda, J-10 has technology from Lavi from aerodynamics, flight control systems to avionics weapons and radar, because Israel was 2nd supplier to China of weapons and tech transfers in the 1990s and 2000s it is so lavi it carries copied clones of AAM Python AAMs and ventral fins like Lavi


He is just insecure that his precious Russia is on a massive demographic, cultural, economic, and most importantly military decline. Just look at their Putin hyped "revolutionary" nuclear missile that blew up and killed 7 soldiers. Hence he wants to project his anger on China, who he believes helped cause Russia's decline.

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## LKJ86

J-10A in Russia

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## Su33KUB

LKJ86 said:


> Many people like you can't accept the development of China, and maybe the theory of copying or stealing can make you more comfortable.
> 
> But it can't stop the development of China, and you will need more excuses to mesmerize yourself.
> 
> Enjoy your time.


I am rather cold and honest, I am not a propaganda machine like you that needs to twist and l lie a record with embellished accounts for Chinese guys who live in the west like you do, there is nothing bad about the J-10 having some Israeli tech and Russian assistance, fools like you feel ashamed if China was helped, there is nothing wrong with J-10 having some assistance because we all are humans and all we learn from others, the Chinese needed to learn like any one does, but J-10 is a Chinese product since many components are all mastered by China, but new technologies require being acquired, a true historian will always tell the true, not embellish stupid forum accounts for China trolls, is China capable of designing the J-10 yes they are, but they needed help that is true, it is a normal process, the effect is J-10 achieved faster operational capability than equivalent aircraft like the Indian LCA to put an example, was an excellent strategy and allowed China a better project but people hiding the account on patriotic speeches forget we all learn from others.



Figaro said:


> I love your attempts at flame baiting by inserting culture/race (both completely irrelevant) into a technical argument. If I am remember my history courses back in college, it was in fact the Westerners who stole Chinese technologies from silk production to paper making. If the Chinese have a "culture" of copying, then doesn't everyone in the Western world have that trait as well? Why should we treat different periods of time any differently?
> 
> 
> He is just insecure that his precious Russia is on a massive demographic, cultural, economic, and most importantly military decline. Just look at their Putin hyped "revolutionary" nuclear missile that blew up and killed 7 soldiers. Hence he wants to project his anger on China, who he believes helped cause Russia's decline.


a fool feel ashamed to learn from others a fools says i know everything i need no help, but Cong was not a fool, he asked others to Make J-10 a better aircraft, in fact if you look at the crystal or plastic model LKJ86 posted the wing lacks the ventral fins and the wing is in a position higher, on the J-10 like Lavi the wing leading edge starts on the splitter plate of the intake and the rear trailing edge is at the bottom of the engine fairing exactly like Lavi achieving a lower wing not a mid wing position, a detail you can not see because a fool always says I know all never can admit correction, but the true is the true, but J-10 is a Chinese aircraft, highly influenced by Lavi data, but major subsystems are Chinese and the J-10 is not a clone, but rather highly influenced by Lavi


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## Figaro

Su33KUB said:


> I am rather cold and honest, I am not a propaganda machine like you that needs to twist and l lie a record with embellished accounts for Chinese guys who live in the west like you do, there is nothing bad about the J-10 having some Israeli tech and Russian assistance, fools like you feel ashamed if China was helped


I'm sorry but how in the world is @LKJ86 a "propaganda machine?" He consistently posts very high quality images of Chinese weaponry or Big Shrimp rumor talk before anyone else on this forum. If anybody is a "propaganda machine," then you are it. You continually rant about pointless stuff to discredit the Chinese aviation sector despite being offered a plethora of evidence to the contrary by various members, LKJ included, of this forum. You are entitled to your own opinion ... at this point everyone knows your position. You can now stop with your trolling and China bashing. 



Su33KUB said:


> IAI Lavi had tech from Grumman and China is famous for copying from cars to Lavi, to *American flags*


Bro, Chinese factories producing American flags for American clients does not mean China is "copying" the American flag. But it is pointless for me to respond to your Red Herrings anyway.

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## Deino

@Su33KUB

Please, give it a rest. No one denies a certain involvement but also no-one - including you - can say at what certain detail... 


All arguments are given and no-one can proof such details like wing, tail, fins and other details, so leave it and especially stopp insulting otherss as spreading propaganda, while youself have your own.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## rambro

Deino said:


> @Su33KUB
> 
> Please, give it a rest. No one denies a certain involvement but also no-one - including you - can say at what certain detail...
> 
> 
> All arguments are given and no-one can proof such details like wing, tail, fins and other details, so leave it and especially stopp insulting otherss as spreading propaganda, while youself have your own.


Ban is the right thing todo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## kuge

will taihang powered j10c fly on Oct 1?


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## Su33KUB

Deino said:


> @Su33KUB
> 
> Please, give it a rest. No one denies a certain involvement but also no-one - including you - can say at what certain detail...
> 
> 
> All arguments are given and no-one can proof such details like wing, tail, fins and other details, so leave it and especially stopp insulting otherss as spreading propaganda, while youself have your own.


in order to answer you will need to be open, Lavi and J-10 have differences as well as similarities, that will tell you how much they share in common and how much Lavi influenced J-10

The differences are in intake type and wing planform, J-10 has a pure delta, first because it is a pure air superiority, Lavi was a ground attack aircraft, but how can you tell that? simple Lavi needed a relatively large span wing with wing tip launch rails, thus its wing it looks closer to a swept wing rather than a pure delta, it has a relatively high aspect ratio in order to carry wing fuel tanks and air to ground weaponry and its trailing edge wing has higher sweep than J-10.


However the Lavi posses one thing that the Crystal model of 1982 does not have, wing fuselage blending, now how I know J-10 follows Lavi and not the model besides lacking the ventral fins? simple the main landing gear in Lavi is like F-16, not like Mirage III, AJ-37, MiG-21, J-8II or Kfir that the wing has the main landing gear struts. The Lavi like J-10 have landing gear struts that are kept inside their fuselage; the main landing gear struts, in Lavi as well in J-10 are positioned in the fuselage, this is done to leave the wing free for hard points and better wing fuselage blending, the crystal model has solutions of Mirage V and you can see that because it is a mid wing, in order for the Lavi to have a main landing gear struts on the fuselage like F-16 they need fuselage wing blending and a low wing.


For a layman their wings are different, but if you know the IAI Lavi innovations you know J-10 follows that, the Lavi had a low wing first to make it roll unstable but also to avoid its external weapon stations from interacting with the fuselage since it was much more tailored for air to ground, longer wing span meant its hard points and weapons and fuel tanks would interact less with each other and wing swept helped that too, thus reducing drag, J-10 has a pure delta because it is more a pure air superiority, thus is designed to be faster, have better acceleration than Lavi specially at supersonic acceleration therefore it has a VG intake with multishock plates. Lavi was designed more for lower speeds but at higher speeds like F-16, J-10 very likely would surpass Lavi as an interceptor, that will explain you the differences of J-10, I will give it a rest, but if you are open you will understand J-10 has Chinese origins, Chinese specifications but indeed uses Lavi innovations in aerodynamics thus it is obvious it is up to some level a Lavi tailored to Chinese needs.


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## LKJ86

Falcon Strike 2019
J-10C and JAS-39C







https://m.weibo.cn/1617093763/4407079441619545

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## LKJ86



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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 574834


I don't think Thailand need western arms anymore. In fact their AF can go full Chinese if they want.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## Avicenna

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 575446



I wonder how they did against each other.


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## jaybird

Avicenna said:


> I wonder how they did against each other.



From the short article posted by LJK86 above rough translation.

_The performance of J-10A from 2017 to 2018 Falcon strike exercise is better and better each year against Thai Air force JAS 39 Gripen. Representing indigenous Chinese fighter jets exceptional advancement and performance. Plus the progress of PLAAF fighter pilots training standard entering a new chapter incrementally is acknowledged by the PLAAF leader. 


But after Falcon Strike 2018 exercise, Chinese internal discussion by the PLAAF pilots conclude that due to Thai Air force worry of leaking too much information on western technology and details of western air combat strategy would affect future Thai corporation with western countries. Thai Air force was somewhat holding back during the exercise with PLAAF during the air combat drill in 2018 Falcon Strike. Thai Air force's attitude seem to be as long as the result is not too lopsided/ugly then is good enough._

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## Beast

jaybird said:


> From the short article posted by LJK86 above rough translation.
> 
> _The performance of J-10A from 2017 to 2018 Falcon strike exercise is better and better each year against Thai Air force JAS 39 Gripen. Representing indigenous Chinese fighter jets exceptional advancement and performance. Plus the progress of PLAAF fighter pilots training standard entering a new chapter incrementally is acknowledged by the PLAAF leader.
> 
> 
> But after Falcon Strike 2018 exercise, Chinese internal discussion by the PLAAF pilots conclude that due to Thai Air force worry of leaking too much information on western technology and details of western air combat strategy would affect future Thai corporation with western countries. Thai Air force was somewhat holding back during the exercise with PLAAF during the air combat drill in 2018 Falcon Strike. Thai Air force's attitude seem to be as long as the result is not too lopsided/ugly then is good enough._


Thailand will soon crossover completely to Chinese military hardware in near future.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10S

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## LKJ86



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## Battle of Waterloo

Does China need the permission of Russia to export J-10C (given it uses Russian engines)?


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## LKJ86

Battle of Waterloo said:


> Does China need the permission of Russia to export J-10C (given it uses Russian engines)?


Do China and Pakistan need the permission of Russia to export JF-17?

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## Battle of Waterloo

LKJ86 said:


> Do China and Pakistan need the permission of Russia to export JF-17?


I don't know....?


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## LKJ86

Battle of Waterloo said:


> I don't know....?


As there are WS-13 and WS-10 engines for backup, who cares the permission of Russia?

J-10 and JF-17 are not another T129.

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## Figaro

Battle of Waterloo said:


> Does China need the permission of Russia to export J-10C (given it uses Russian engines)?


They need the permission to export the RD-33. But as LKJ pointed out, If they refuse, the RD-33 could just be replaced by domestic alternatives.

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## Battle of Waterloo

Figaro said:


> They need the permission to export the RD-33. But as LKJ pointed out, If they refuse, the RD-33 could just be replaced by domestic alternatives.


Thanks


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## yantong1980

Battle of Waterloo said:


> Does China need the permission of Russia to export J-10C (given it uses Russian engines)?



If Russian smart enough, they will just nod. Wait... I thought J-10 already used WS-10 engines? Did I miss something?

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## Figaro

yantong1980 said:


> If Russian smart enough, they will just nod. Wait... I thought J-10 already used WS-10 engines? Did I miss something?


I believe J-10s only recently began to be produced with WS-10 engines.

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## LKJ86

Figaro said:


> I believe J-10s only recently began to be produced with WS-10 engines.


For mass production.

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## Beast

Battle of Waterloo said:


> Does China need the permission of Russia to export J-10C (given it uses Russian engines)?


If J-10C need to be export, it will not be fitted with Russian engine. China has alternative engine for J-10C export depend on customers requirement.

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## Battle of Waterloo

Beast said:


> If J-10C need to be export, it will not be fitted with Russian engine. China has alternative engine for J-10C export depend on customers requirement.


Thanks. What is China's position on exporting J-10C to Iran for example (with some form of local production/technology transfer) - possible or not?


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## Beast

Battle of Waterloo said:


> Thanks. What is China's position on exporting J-10C to Iran for example (with some form of local production/technology transfer) - possible or not?


Currently I am not sure but from some source close to PLAAF, China is not very keen to export J-10C(even if export, it will be a water down version)

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10S

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

Via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @诤闻军事微博号 from Weibo

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## Deino

Still no clear images of the WS-10-equipped J-10C and J-20?


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## Su33KUB

*China's F-16: Meet the J-10 Fighter (Possibly Thanks to Israel)*

Here's what happened.

by Sebastien Roblin

The J-10 “Vigorous Dragon” is a mainstay of China’s effort to modernize its large fleet of single-engine jet fighters, with 350 already in service. An agile tactical fighter similar to the ubiquitous F-16 Fighting Falcon, the Vigorous Dragon was the first domestic Chinese design roughly on par with Western and Russian fourth-generation fighters.


However, there is considerable evidence that the J-10’s development was heavily informed by a jet fighter developed by Israel with U.S. engines in the 1980s.


Israel first manufactured its own jets after its order of French Dassault Mirage Vs was embargoed in 1967. Israeli agents obtained Mirage V schematics (and most likely manufacturing components and even airframes), allowing Israel Aerospace Industries to produce two domestic clones: the Nesher and the improved Kfir. These both served with the IAF and were exported broad.

Between 1969–1979, the IAF received high-performance twin-engine F-4 Phantom fighters and F-15 Eagles from the United States. However, it still wanted a cheaper single-engine tactical fighter to replace its increasingly vulnerable A-4 Skyhawk and Nesher jets. So why not also build the Nesher’s replacement domestically?

The resulting dapper IAI Lavi (Lion Cub) had delta-wings (good for high-speed performance) combined with canards, a second set of small wings near the nose for improved lift and maneuverability. The Lion Cub was so maneuverable it was aerodynamically unstable, but an advanced quadruple-redundant fly-by-wire flight control system counter-acted the instability.


Composite materials were extensively incorporated to lower the Lavi’s weight down to just 7.25-tons empty. A compact Pratt & Whitney 1120 turbofan slung under the belly delivered large amounts of thrust, allowing the little Lavi to fly far and fast carrying up to a sixteen-thousand-pound payload.

In fact, with the exception of the canards, the Lavi closely resembled in appearance and capability the U.S.-built F-16s that entered Israeli Air Force service in 1980. These soon saw extensive combat service, destroying the Iraqi Osirak nuclear reactor and shooting down over forty Syrian fighters over Lebanon without loss.

Israeli and U.S. critics of the Lavi pointed out Israel was investing $2 billion in development costs to reinvent an airplane it had already bought from the United States. The more ground-attack oriented Lavi did differ in a few respects, however. It had a lower maximum speed of Mach 1.6-1.8 compared to the Falcon’s Mach 2, but had 50 percent longer range. It also had a powerful internal mounted jamming system for self-protection. The Lavi’s Israeli-designed avionics were comparable to the later F-16C model than the more rudimentary F-16A.

However, by the 1980s jet fighter development costs had grown exponentially as they grew more and more sophisticated; and, unlike the Nesher and Kfir, the Lavi was not cloned from an existing design. IAI hoped to make back the costs by exporting the Lavi, particularly to states facing embargoes due to poor human-rights records such as Apartheid-era South Africa, Chile and Argentina.


But the U.S., provider of 40 percent of the Lavi components, didn’t want to subsidize a competitor for the F-16. Washington signaled it would only cooperate if Israel refrained from exporting the Lavi.

By 1987 IAI had built two flying two-seat Lavi prototypes which demonstrated excellent performance in eighty-two test flights. Three more were under construction. It had also tested the PW1120 turbofans on an F-4 ‘Super Phantom’ which demonstrated such extraordinary performance it even flew a demo at the Paris Air Show and was briefly considered for export.

However, the extraordinary financial commitments the Lavi entailed made it extremely politically divisive. On August 30, in an 11-12 vote, the Israeli cabinet canceled the Lavi. Ninety additional F-16s were procured instead.

Thus ended Israel’s production of domestic jet fighters—but not of advanced weapons and components for jet fighters, which was greatly boosted by technologies developed for the Lavi.

One notable export was the Python-3 heat-seeking missile, which boasted the then still-rare ability to engage planes from any aspect using a helmet-mounted sight. The technology was licensed for production by China’s Xi’an Aircraft Corporation in 1989 as the PL-8 missile, which remains in service today.

Other technologies transferred include the E/LM-2035 doppler radar (derivatives installed on the J-8 and J-10 fighter) and the Tamam inertial navigation system.

In fact, during the 1980s, the U.S. and Western Europe were also exporting military technology to China, then seen as a counter-balance to the Soviet Union. U.S. firms even explored co-developing updated J-7 and J-8 fighters for Beijing. However, Chinese-Western defense cooperation ended abruptly following the Tiananmen Square massacre on June 4, 1989.

However, in the mid-1990s, U.S. newspapers began reporting that intelligence agencies were concerned about continued Israeli technology transfers to China—including some components given to Israel by the United States.

This included allegations that Israel had transferred Lavi technology for China’s program to develop a fourth-generation jet fighter. The Chengdu Aircraft Corporation had begun work on the J-10 in 1988 under engineer Song Wencong, who can be seen next to a Lavi in this photo (fourth from the right).


In his book Lavi: the United States, Israel and a Controversial Fighter, John W. Golan wrote:

Israeli involvement in the J-10 appears to have begun at around the same time that China first opened diplomatic relations with Israel in January 1992 . . . Israeli contractors were engaged to provide the aerodynamic and structural outlines for the J-10. The Israeli influences on the J-10’s design are unmistakable: a close-coupled, canard-delta arrangement; a single-engine fighter featuring a ventral engine inlet; twin ventral strakes; and an area-ruled fuselage.


Concerns over Israel-China technology transfers spurred Congress to ban exporting the hi-tech F-22 Raptor stealth fighter. Unfortunately, the lack of export orders combined with later defense spending cuts, led to the premature closure of the F-22s production line. In its final years, the Clinton administration also blocked Israel from exporting its Phalcon airborne early-warning aircraft, forcing China to spend years domestically developing a wide variety of its own AEW aircraft.

According to Golan, “Israeli involvement in the J-10 program appears to have been curtailed at around the same time, with Russia stepping in to market Soviet-developed avionics systems to supply production versions of the aircraft.”

Both Song and IAI officials have staunchly denied collaboration in the J-10’s development.

However, in 2008, Jane’s reported that in extended interviews with several visiting Russian engineers that Chengdu “benefited from significant, direct input from Israel's Lavi programme - including access to the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) Lavi aircraft itself . . . This has included extensive design and performance modeling, wind-tunnel testing and advanced aerodynamic design input . . . Jane's was told how Chengdu officials of the highest level stated how they had one of the IAI Lavi prototypes in their facilities.”

Hypothetically, Jane’s Russian sources may have been spreading misinformation. Russia’s aviation industry has a decidedly love-hate relationship with China.

However, if Israel did transfer Lavi technology to China—both parties would have strong incentives to deny it.

At any rate, the J-10 is more inspired by the Lavi than an outright clone. It is significantly longer and heavier, and has different wings. In his book, Golan explains that China lacked access to the compact PW1120 engine and the capability for wide-scale manufacturing of lightweight composite components. (China finally achieved the latter with the Y-20 transport plane.) Therefore, Song had to lengthen the J-10’s fuselage by two meters to accommodate a Russian AL-31F turbofan, resulting in an 11.75-ton jet.

Nonetheless, the J-10 remain an agile, versatile and inexpensive multirole fighter designed from the outset to incorporate hi-tech avionic systems and guided weapons. Though not a cutting-edge stealth aircraft, it marked an important milestone in China’s military modernization—achieved, most likely, with a little foreign assistance.

_Sébastien Roblin holds a master’s degree in conflict resolution from Georgetown University and served as a university instructor for the Peace Corps in China. He has also worked in education, editing, and refugee resettlement in France and the United States. He currently writes on security and military history for War Is Boring.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/chinas-f-16-meet-j-10-fighter-possibly-thanks-israel-48727
_


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1170595177179860992

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1170595177179860992


We need more pictures of the new J-10C with WS-10 engines!

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## Deino

You cannot stop? Don't You?? Again, no-one denies that there have been contacts, that the design is influenced but esp. in the point even the mentioned report from John W. Golan is wrong twice:



Su33KUB said:


> ...
> Israeli involvement in the J-10 appears to have begun at around the same time that China first opened diplomatic relations with Israel in January 1992 . . . Israeli contractors were engaged to provide the aerodynamic and structural outlines for the J-10. The Israeli influences on the J-10’s design are unmistakable: a close-coupled, canard-delta arrangement; a single-engine fighter featuring a ventral engine inlet; twin ventral strakes; and an area-ruled fuselage.
> 
> According to Golan, “Israeli involvement in the J-10 program appears to have been curtailed at around the same time, with Russia stepping in to market Soviet-developed avionics systems to supply production versions of the aircraft.”



First, the J-9IV was already a "*a close-coupled, canard-delta arrangement; a single-engine fighter featuring a ventral engine inlet; twin ventral strakes; and an area-ruled fuselage*" and the final J-10 is so much different to a Lavi but much closer to the J-9. And second, the J-10 does not use "*Soviet-developed avionics systems to supply production versions of the aircraft.*”

In contrast to you he however is correct with:


> However, in 2008, Jane’s reported that in extended interviews with several visiting Russian engineers that Chengdu “benefited from significant, direct input from Israel's Lavi programme - including access to the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) Lavi aircraft itself . . . This has included extensive design and performance modeling, wind-tunnel testing and advanced aerodynamic design input . . . Jane's was told how Chengdu officials of the highest level stated how they had one of the IAI Lavi prototypes in their facilities.”
> 
> *At any rate, the J-10 is more inspired by the Lavi than an outright clone. It is significantly longer and heavier, and has different wings.*




So, why again you try to mix things, deny what other long acknowledged and try to still spin the theory of a clone?  It is since in your world there is only black-and-white or since you are so much blinded by hate against anything from China and pure admiration on what's from Russia?

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## Su33KUB

Deino said:


> You cannot stop? Don't You?? Again, no-one denies that there have been contacts, that the design is influenced but esp. in the point even the mentioned report from John W. Golan is wrong twice:
> 
> 
> 
> First, the J-9IV was already a "*a close-coupled, canard-delta arrangement; a single-engine fighter featuring a ventral engine inlet; twin ventral strakes; and an area-ruled fuselage*" and the final J-10 is so much different to a Lavi but much closer to the J-9. And second, the J-10 does not use "*Soviet-developed avionics systems to supply production versions of the aircraft.*”
> 
> In contrast to you he however is correct with:
> 
> 
> 
> So, why again you try to mix things, deny what other long acknowledged and try to still spin the theory of a clone?  It is since in your world there is only black-and-white or since you are so much blinded by hate against anything from China and pure admiration on what's from Russia?


I did not write the article


John W. Golan has served as *a designer, structural analyst, and engineering manager in the U.S. aerospace industry for the last two decades, *developing future-generation technology concepts. He has published articles with _Air Forces Monthly_, _Combat Aircraft_, _Aviation History_, and the _Jerusalem Post Magazine_.




An engineer in the U.S. aerospace industry for over two decades*, John Golan has been a designer, structures analyst and engineering manager. He has participated in the development and maintenance of the jet engines that power aircraft ranging from the Boeing 737 to the Airbus A380, and from the Boeing F-15 to the Lockheed F-35. *His past aerospace publication credits include articles in Air Forces Monthly, Combat Aircraft, Aviation History, Tablet, and the Jerusalem Post Magazine.













If this is the J-9IV definitively this can not be a J-10 ancestor, just looking at the canard it easy to see it has more AJ-37 influence, the Viggen canard is designed more for STOL operations than agility, plus the wing lacks the aft strakes and lacks even Karman wing-fuselage junction which is pretty easy to see on Gripen.






J-10 has many features common with Lavi, any way remember not every one agrees with you and certainly the article was not written by me, it only happens i read Golan analysis and taught me a lot, i agree with him and in that was also expressed by the owner of the article i posted


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## LKJ86

Su33KUB said:


> I did not write the article
> 
> 
> John W. Golan has served as *a designer, structural analyst, and engineering manager in the U.S. aerospace industry for the last two decades, *developing future-generation technology concepts. He has published articles with _Air Forces Monthly_, _Combat Aircraft_, _Aviation History_, and the _Jerusalem Post Magazine_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An engineer in the U.S. aerospace industry for over two decades*, John Golan has been a designer, structures analyst and engineering manager. He has participated in the development and maintenance of the jet engines that power aircraft ranging from the Boeing 737 to the Airbus A380, and from the Boeing F-15 to the Lockheed F-35. *His past aerospace publication credits include articles in Air Forces Monthly, Combat Aircraft, Aviation History, Tablet, and the Jerusalem Post Magazine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If this is the J-9IV definitively this can not be a J-10 ancestor, just looking at the canard it easy to see it has more AJ-37 influence, the Viggen canard is designed more for STOL operations than agility, plus the wing lacks the aft strakes and lacks even Karman wing-fuselage junction which is pretty easy to see on Gripen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-10 has many features common with Lavi, any way remember not every one agrees with you and certainly the article was not written by me, it only happens i read Golan analysis and taught me a lot, i agree with him and in that was also expressed by the owner of the article i posted


Maybe you would be interested in Novi Avion of the former Yugoslavia:

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## Deino

Su33KUB said:


> I did not write the article



I know, but my point was, he is wrong in two points. Or do you want to claim the J-10 uses a Russian radar and Russian avionics as he did?






> If this is the J-9IV definitively this can not be a J-10 ancestor, just looking at the canard it easy to see it has more AJ-37 influence, the Viggen canard is designed more for STOL operations than agility, plus the wing lacks the aft strakes and lacks even Karman wing-fuselage junction which is pretty easy to see on Gripen.



Again, please do your homework ... this not the final J-9IV configuration, which evolved into the current J-10. This is a different even larger twin-engined concept - called J-9VI - probably to replace the former failed Shenyang J-10 long-range high-speed interceptor.

This is the J-9 which evolved into the J-10:













> J-10 has many features common with Lavi, any way remember not every one agrees with you and certainly the article was not written by me, it only happens i read Golan analysis and taught me a lot, i agree with him and in that was also expressed by the owner of the article i posted



Yes, and once again: No-one denies this ... even the €Fighter has some similarities, but this does not make it a clone.

My point is - and I really don't know what's yours - that NONE denies these contacts between IAI & CAC, Yes for sure, the J-10 was influenced and surely Israel helped in refining the aerodynamics as well as developing the FCS.

But - and again I don't know what You want and why you always point to "not every one agrees with you" - could you please tell us in simple and clear words what's your point? Why you again and again nit-pick on these issues?

Sometimes I have the feeling in your world there is only black and white: The Lavi looks similar, that means it MUST be a clone, it "as many features common with Lavi" but the world is most often grey. Yes, a B737 looks similar to a A320 and the C919 too as well as the MS-21, but does this mean since they have "many features common with ... " they stole the design, they ripped off some data, they copied ??

Surely not.

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## Su33KUB

Deino said:


> I know, but my point was, he is wrong in two points. Or do you want to claim the J-10 uses a Russian radar and Russian avionics as he did?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, please do your homework ... this not the final J-9IV configuration, which evolved into the current J-10. This is a different even larger twin-engined concept - called J-9VI - probably to replace the former failed Shenyang J-10 long-range high-speed interceptor.
> 
> This is the J-9 which evolved into the J-10:
> 
> View attachment 578523
> View attachment 578524
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and once again: No-one denies this ... even the €Fighter has some similarities, but this does not make it a clone.
> 
> My point is - and I really don't know what's yours - that NONE denies these contacts between IAI & CAC, Yes for sure, the J-10 was influenced and surely Israel helped in refining the aerodynamics as well as developing the FCS.
> 
> But - and again I don't know what You want and why you always point to "not every one agrees with you" - could you please tell us in simple and clear words what's your point? Why you again and again nit-pick on these issues?
> 
> Sometimes I have the feeling in your world there is only black and white: The Lavi looks similar, that means it MUST be a clone, it "as many features common with Lavi" but the world is most often grey. Yes, a B737 looks similar to a A320 and the C919 too as well as the MS-21, but does this mean since they have "many features common with ... " they stole the design, they ripped off some data, they copied ??
> 
> Surely not.


you are misunderstanding me, certainly it is not a clone, however the distinct models you presented lack features J-10 have in common with Lavi, aircraft design is science but also a kind of art, because aircraft have different requirements sometimes these are contradictory, for example the canard shape, Viggen has a canard with delta shape, this type of canard is really good for lift at high AoA, but is not the best for range, when you look at details of J-10 you can see the influence was major, not a simple or casual one, Golan explains that the limitations in jet engine made J-10 bigger than Lavi thus its ventral fins are much much bigger than the ones in Lavi same was the vertical dorsal fin, the canards of the production and prototypes J-10 are not like the one of the crystal model presented by LKJ86, but higher aspect ratio following a midpoint between lift and range and easy to see in the canard swept angle, also the wing in both aircraft have aft strakes and are much forward closer to the CG showing higher longitudinal relaxed stability , the drawing you present has a Mirage IV wing canard configuration, with no aft strakes and no ventral fins, the models you present or he presents only prove China was working upon a rather primitive J-10 still far far away from the J-10 we know today, the modern and real aircraft is much closer to Lavi, because Lavi was an excellent aircraft in the 1980s, J-10 is Chinese but it was drafted with Lavi DNA, the influence was major, but the end result is Chinese, the J-9VI has a MiG-25 type with viggen features, the crystal model is a J-10 with Mirage III NG features, the current production model is a J-10 with Lavi features, there is a gap in knowledge and technology, Golan presents how a simple change in engine in Lavi changed the size of major components of Lavi, adding a Al-31 will certainly change many things in Lavi, no one is belittling the chinese aviation industry, like Golan writes we are just trying to see the real influence J-10 has from Lavi, some people feel offended true, but there is no reason to get offended aircraft are not easy to develop and manufacture and many times require the joint effort of different countries, sadly some people feel offended, but aviation is in our days basically an international effort, people like it or not Regards






you can easily see the Chinese were not studying more advanced aircraft than Mirage III types or viggen

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## ozranger

A bit off topic that J-9IV and other twin engine variants were the ones which truly match what PLAAF initially aimed for. PLAAF had some unrealistic expectation on J-9 development, which includes twin engine, M2.5 and 25km flight altitude.

JU-20 development benefited from experience obtained in the work on J-9IV's canard, LERX and delta wing combination.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10S

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## khanasifm

I think rockets in western world airforces is thing of the past ??? Not seen anything fro usaf or others

I mean on high performance jets like f-16, Gripen , Rafael etc


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## LKJ86

khanasifm said:


> I think rockets in western world airforces is thing of the past ??? Not seen anything fro usaf or others
> 
> I mean on high performance jets like f-16, Gripen , Rafael etc


Just for the training purpose.

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## Su33KUB

khanasifm said:


> I think rockets in western world airforces is thing of the past ??? Not seen anything fro usaf or others
> 
> I mean on high performance jets like f-16, Gripen , Rafael etc


they still use them, Gripen






F-16






Harrier





Mirage 2000





Rafale





Hornet





What the J-10 is doing is normal, their use is mission dependant

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## Deino

Allegedly the first clear image of a J-10C's cockpit ...

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Allegedly the first clear image of a J-10C's cockpit ...
> 
> View attachment 579533


From a television series?


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## GeHAC

Deino said:


> Allegedly the first clear image of a J-10C's cockpit ...
> 
> View attachment 579533


Accurate configuration, but the UI is pretty fake to me...

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## Dazzler

GeHAC said:


> Accurate configuration, but the UI is pretty fake to me...



Looks similar to jf-17's cockpit apart from up front control panel.


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## Ali_Baba

Deino said:


> Allegedly the first clear image of a J-10C's cockpit ...
> 
> View attachment 579533



There is far too much text, and small text for that to be a real cockpit. Must be a mockup for some purpose, it looks too complicated/involved with text for a modern cockpit ...


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## Pampa

Ali_Baba said:


> There is far too much text, and small text for that to be a real cockpit. Must be a mockup for some purpose, it looks too complicated/involved with text for a modern cockpit ...



Look at the HUD - UFCP.
You can read CALIBRATE SET.
All displays are in the same mode.

It is unlikely to see the real operating software on the displays for the media or unauthorized people.

IMHO, probably the image come from the recent exercise with Pakistan AF, maybe during a media day.

Regards


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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH








Via @当代海军 from Weixin

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## Deino

And still no images of the WS-10 powered serial J-10C?


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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via kj.81.cn

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via @太湖啥个 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via @酒色财气吕洞宾 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via 航空知识

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## AMG_12

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 581633
> View attachment 581634
> View attachment 581635


Beautiful bird!

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 581634



Oh well ....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1178247336310521856

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## Fsjal

Deino said:


> Oh well ....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1178247336310521856


Aye, new HMD for J-10 pilots. I don't know why but looking at the frontal-top part of the helmet, it kinda looks like the HMD used by J-20 pilot, and that HMD is pretty cool looking.

It'd be pretty cool to see that new HMD being used by Sino-Flanker and JH-7A pilots too tbh.

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## Dazzler

HMDS

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## LKJ86

Via @兵器杂志-肖宁 from Weibo

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1180505311469342722


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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via @航空知识杂志王亚男 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## Fsjal

Since J-10C is said to be simply J-10Bs with enhanced avionic suites, is there any discernible visual differences between J-10B and J-10C?

Also are the J-10Cs newly-built or upgrades of existing J-10B airframes?

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## ZeEa5KPul

Fsjal said:


> Since J-10C is said to be simply J-10Bs with enhanced avionic suites, is there any discernible visual differences between J-10B and J-10C?
> 
> Also are the J-10Cs newly-built or upgrades of existing J-10B airframes?


The J-10C has an AESA radar while the J-10B has a PESA. The most distinguishing characteristic between the B and C are the antennas along the aircraft's spine. The B has one while the C has two.

All J-10Cs are new airframes.

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## vi-va

Fsjal said:


> Since J-10C is said to be simply J-10Bs with enhanced avionic suites, is there any discernible visual differences between J-10B and J-10C?
> 
> Also are the J-10Cs newly-built or upgrades of existing J-10B airframes?




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/885594698102059008

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## FuturePAF

Any indication the J-10 will get the WS-15 when it becomes available?

Current engines have a max thrust around 130 kn (please correct me if I’m wrong) but the WS-15 is expected to have a max thrust of 198 kn or about 44,000 lb at max thrust. Even it’s dry thrust maybe more then the current thrust at its max. The Ws-15 is also expected to allow supercrusing, and cut back on fuel consumption even further. This would allow the J-10 to our perform the Eurofighters in nearly every way; high TWR, able to carry more weight, longer range, etc.

With Chinese Electronics industry advancing so quickly, the Radar, ew suite, and avionics will be second to none in no time if they haven’t already gotten there.

The plane will be able to sell in the hundreds if not thousands, especially if price remains around $55-60 million.

Also Pakistan was interest in this jet, and the higher thrust domestic Chinese engine maybe the key to clinch the sale. If equipped with a WS-15 if the unit price can be sold at ~$55 million each or $1 Billion per squadron (18 jets) the PAF maybe able to agree to a sale (they didn’t want to pay more than $40 million for the J-10a whe. It was considered and the Chinese side wanted $60 million each).

If the Economy picks up, going for (committing to) 5 Squadrons (90 planes) for $5 billion should e planned for to counter the nearly 300 Su-30s and probably hundreds of Rafales eventually procured. Coupled with the 188 currently planned JF-17 and 76 F-16s it would still be a potent force at a budget price. 

(With a stable economy and the savings by committing to the J-10ce with Ws-15, the PAF could also then make commitments to the TFX program for 5 squadrons (90 planes) of stealth fighters, and get in on the technology and work share of the development of that plane)


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## Su33KUB

FuturePAF said:


> Any indication the J-10 will get the WS-15 when it becomes available?
> 
> Current engines have a max thrust around 130 kn (please correct me if I’m wrong) but the WS-15 is expected to have a max thrust of 198 kn or about 44,000 lb at max thrust. Even it’s dry thrust maybe more then the current thrust at its max. The Ws-15 is also expected to allow supercrusing, and cut back on fuel consumption even further. This would allow the J-10 to our perform the Eurofighters in nearly every way; high TWR, able to carry more weight, longer range, etc.
> 
> With Chinese Electronics industry advancing so quickly, the Radar, ew suite, and avionics will be second to none in no time if they haven’t already gotten there.
> 
> The plane will be able to sell in the hundreds if not thousands, especially if price remains around $55-60 million.
> 
> Also Pakistan was interest in this jet, and the higher thrust domestic Chinese engine maybe the key to clinch the sale. If equipped with a WS-15 if the unit price can be sold at ~$55 million each or $1 Billion per squadron (18 jets) the PAF maybe able to agree to a sale (they didn’t want to pay more than $40 million for the J-10a whe. It was considered and the Chinese side wanted $60 million each).
> 
> If the Economy picks up, going for (committing to) 5 Squadrons (90 planes) for $5 billion should e planned for to counter the nearly 300 Su-30s and probably hundreds of Rafales eventually procured. Coupled with the 188 currently planned JF-17 and 76 F-16s it would still be a potent force at a budget price.
> 
> (With a stable economy and the savings by committing to the J-10ce with Ws-15, the PAF could also then make commitments to the TFX program for 5 squadrons (90 planes) of stealth fighters, and get in on the technology and work share of the development of that plane)


adapting the WS-15 will mean adapting a new air intake, if you ever have seen the DSI on JF-17 you will see it has boundary layer suction holes in the intake but you will also see its intake lips and cowl have those holes, on J-10B the bump is higher






in order to install a much more powerful engine they need a proper intake throat size, while this is possible to make an increase in the intake size and bump means higher drag, the most logic step is WS-15 is for J-20 and lesser powerful engines will be used on J-10, F-16 has during the years bee fitted with different size intakes cowls in order to adapt it to different engines, J-10 is not going to be different





different types of intakes for different engines of F-16 to increase air mass flow capture area





https://glomilstrat.blogspot.com/2017/07/the-two-types-of-intakes-on-f-16.html

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## FuturePAF

Su33KUB said:


> adapting the WS-15 will mean adapting a new air intake, if you ever have seen the DSI on JF-17 you will see it has boundary layer suction holes in the intake but you will also see its intake lips and cowl have those holes, on J-10B the bump is higher
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in order to install a much more powerful engine they need a proper intake throat size, while this is possible to make an increase in the intake size and bump means higher drag, the most logic step is WS-15 is for J-20 and lesser powerful engines will be used on J-10, F-16 has during the years bee fitted with different size intakes cowls in order to adapted to different engines, J-10 is not going to be different
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> different types of intakes for different engines of F-16 to increase air mass flow capture area
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://glomilstrat.blogspot.com/2017/07/the-two-types-of-intakes-on-f-16.html



Thanks for explaining it. The idea behind adapting the WS-15 to the J-10 came from a hope that if the could be adapted to the higher thrust engine, then plane could be made to carry a higher payload and feature conformal fuel tanks without sacrificing performance. Also if the J-10 could supercruise it would be able to use less fuel and therefore have an extended range.

considering the same company that makes the J-10 also makes the J-20, it all comes down to if it is really nessecary for the desired outcome. The WS-10 engine could be improved with features from the WS-15, to allow for some improvement in thrust and give supercruise capability.

Maybe I got it all wrong and this was already thought of. The ws-10 was superceded by the ws-10g. Does anyone know what actual max thrust of the ws-10g is?


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## LKJ86

The chief designer of J-10B-TVC and J-10C, and also the deputy chief designer of J-20: 王海峰

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## Su33KUB

FuturePAF said:


> Thanks for explaining it. The idea behind adapting the WS-15 to the J-10 came from a hope that if the could be adapted to the higher thrust engine, then plane could be made to carry a higher payload and feature conformal fuel tanks without sacrificing performance. Also if the J-10 could supercruise it would be able to use less fuel and therefore have an extended range.
> 
> considering the same company that makes the J-10 also makes the J-20, it all comes down to if it is really nessecary for the desired outcome. The WS-10 engine could be improved with features from the WS-15, to allow for some improvement in thrust and give supercruise capability.
> 
> Maybe I got it all wrong and this was already thought of. The ws-10 was superceded by the ws-10g. Does anyone know what actual max thrust of the ws-10g is?


it is not impossible, they can modify the intake, there is no technical limitation, they can do that, the only point is if you ever have seen F-35 you will see it has not bleeding system, in few words has not porous holes in the intake bump or intake cowl, you can compare F-35 to JF-17, those holes are part of the bleeding system of boundary layer, the other option is the size of the bump too, F-35 has no bleeding system, JF-17 has one












what i am trying to say is the porous holes are to improve the intake but they can adopt too a different intake cowl and bump geometry and size this can increase Drag and the capture area of air mass flow; a bigger and higher bump also will translate in higher drag because the intake cowl will increase size too, JF-17 uses those holes to keep relatively small the intake bump.

It is not an impossibility, but i would say there are some disadvantages too, DSI intakes are not new in reality are from the 1950s, F-11F-1 had one but due to computer limitations they were called Ferri type and you can see it had porous holes for the bleeding system, the current intake of the J-10 seems so well designed that lacks a bleeding system like F-35, when i mean well designed i am not saying JF-17 is not well designed, what i meant it is the right size and shape in order to get rid of the bleeding system








they are called now DSI and not Ferri because now computer power allows for a better design but in reality are old, from 1954, they were used in several american aircraft program of the 1950s and 1960s, in fact the early F-16 concept was studied with one ferri type intake

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86

Via CJDBY

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## Pampa

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 584065
> 
> Via CJDBY


WS10 finally?


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## LKJ86

Via @太湖啥个 from Weibo


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## vi-va

*J-10C might win Thailand’s new big fighter order*
Posted on October 12, 2019 by buffalo — No Comments ↓




J-10C fighter

According to media out of China, the Royal Thai Air Force has proposed a new generation of fighter aircraft to replace the existing F-16A/B fighter, and China’s J-10C fighter is one of the potential candidates. If the bid is successful, J-10C fighter might witness the export of its first order.

According to Royal Thai Air Force, the current F-16A/B fighter jets were introduced in the late 1980s and has been in service for nearly 30 years.

The life span of a three-generation fighter is generally 30 calendar years. The Royal Thai Air Force upgraded the active F-16A/B fighter in 2010, it achieved the F-16MLU level and enhanced its combat capability. However, these fighters have entered a period of high failure and it has become more and more difficult to maintain their integrity rate, so the Royal Thai Air Force decided to introduce a new generation of fighters.

Now there are three of the most powerful competitors in the Royal Thai Air Force new fighter program, namely F-16V, JAS-39E/F and J-10CE fighters.

The Chinese J-10C fighter is a dark horse of the Royal Thai Air Force’s new generation fighter program. J-10C fighter is the latest improvement of China’s J-10 fighter.

It is equipped with a domestic WS-10B turbofan engine. The airborne fire control radar is upgraded to an active phased array radar. The cockpit is made of vitrified cockpit and the airborne weapon is medium and long. Air-to-air missiles and infrared imaging combat air-to-air missiles have the same overall combat capability as three generations of improved and three-generation-and-half fighters.

For export-oriented fighters, China is also open to airborne mission computers, allowing customers to access source code and integrate their own weapons and equipment.

There is also a relatively low price of domestic fighters. The price of the J-10C fighter is said to be only about half of JAS-39E/F fighters, which could be very attractive for Thailand.
https://www.china-arms.com/2019/10/j-10c-thailand-fighter-order/

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## Fsjal

viva_zhao said:


> *J-10C might win Thailand’s new big fighter order*
> Posted on October 12, 2019 by buffalo — No Comments ↓
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-10C fighter
> 
> According to media out of China, the Royal Thai Air Force has proposed a new generation of fighter aircraft to replace the existing F-16A/B fighter, and China’s J-10C fighter is one of the potential candidates. If the bid is successful, J-10C fighter might witness the export of its first order.
> 
> According to Royal Thai Air Force, the current F-16A/B fighter jets were introduced in the late 1980s and has been in service for nearly 30 years.
> 
> The life span of a three-generation fighter is generally 30 calendar years. The Royal Thai Air Force upgraded the active F-16A/B fighter in 2010, it achieved the F-16MLU level and enhanced its combat capability. However, these fighters have entered a period of high failure and it has become more and more difficult to maintain their integrity rate, so the Royal Thai Air Force decided to introduce a new generation of fighters.
> 
> Now there are three of the most powerful competitors in the Royal Thai Air Force new fighter program, namely F-16V, JAS-39E/F and J-10CE fighters.
> 
> The Chinese J-10C fighter is a dark horse of the Royal Thai Air Force’s new generation fighter program. J-10C fighter is the latest improvement of China’s J-10 fighter.
> 
> It is equipped with a domestic WS-10B turbofan engine. The airborne fire control radar is upgraded to an active phased array radar. The cockpit is made of vitrified cockpit and the airborne weapon is medium and long. Air-to-air missiles and infrared imaging combat air-to-air missiles have the same overall combat capability as three generations of improved and three-generation-and-half fighters.
> 
> For export-oriented fighters, China is also open to airborne mission computers, allowing customers to access source code and integrate their own weapons and equipment.
> 
> There is also a relatively low price of domestic fighters. The price of the J-10C fighter is said to be only about half of JAS-39E/F fighters, which could be very attractive for Thailand.
> https://www.china-arms.com/2019/10/j-10c-thailand-fighter-order/


Makes a lot of sense. J-10 is pretty much in the same class as the F-16, both have similar sizes and similar ordnance payload capacity. However, based on Col. Boyd's energy-maneuverability theory, the J-10 is a turn-based fighter like Gripen compared to F-16 being energy-based instead.

I'm interested to know whether Thailand will choose F-16V or J-10C, since politics plays a lot in weapons acquirement. It's also interesting to know J-10C is actually cheaper than Gripen E/F despite J-10C being a class above it. This might give J-10C a higher chance of being procured by Thailand though RTAF does operate Gripen C/D already so the chance of Gripen E/F is still possible.

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## vi-va

J-10 maneuverbility is similar to Dassault Rafale. Both are canard delta wing, multirole fighter aircraft. No one said Rafale is not energy based fighter, right?

maneuverbility is a capability, do not conflict with energy.


Fsjal said:


> Makes a lot of sense. J-10 is pretty much in the same class as the F-16, both have similar sizes and similar ordnance payload capacity. However, based on Col. Boyd's energy-maneuverability theory, the J-10 is a turn-based fighter like Gripen compared to F-16 being energy-based instead.
> 
> I'm interested to know whether Thailand will choose F-16V or J-10C, since politics plays a lot in weapons acquirement. It's also interesting to know J-10C is actually cheaper than Gripen E/F despite J-10C being a class above it. This might give J-10C a higher chance of being procured by Thailand though RTAF does operate Gripen C/D already so the chance of Gripen E/F is still possible.


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## Fsjal

viva_zhao said:


> J-10 maneuverbility is similar to Dassault Rafale. Both are canard delta wing, multirole fighter aircraft. No one said Rafale is not energy based fighter, right?
> 
> maneuverbility is a capability, do not conflict with energy.


I don't disagree with turn-based fighter jets having the ability to retain energy. The Flankers themselves are a great example since they're turn-based heavy fighters themselves and can still retain energy without bleeding too much of it during a tight turn (although energy from a supermaneuverable plane like the Flankers can be further bled if AoA limiters are off).

However, what makes a turn-based fighter different from energy-based fighters is that during continuous maneuvers and turns, an aircraft such as the J-10 or Rafale bleeds energy quicker than energy-based fighters such as F-16 or F/A-18, but at the same time these turn-based fighters have higher maneuverability in return.

_"Typically, the fighter with higher energy (energy fighter) will make an "energy move" like an "out-of-plane maneuver", to maintain the energy advantage, while the fighter at an energy disadvantage (angles fighter) will make an "angles move" such as a break turn, trying to use the opponent's energy to their own advantage"

- _Source from navyflightmanuals.tpub.com

An energy-based fighter jet can still be maneuverable and fit for dogfight, the F-16 itself was designed as an energy dogfighter from the very start. Heck, even F-15 itself is quite maneuverable especially thanks to its large wings. Meanwhile, turn-based fighters don't have to follow the tailless delta-canard configuration as seen on J-10 and Rafale, both MiG-29 and Su-27 (and other canardless Flanker variants such as Su-30MKK and Su-35S) use conventional tail configuration for that matter.

Yes, maneuverability is a capability and it doesn't conflict with energy, but turn-based fighters have different ways of using their energy compared to their energy-based counterparts.


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## vi-va

*J-10C fighter adopts advanced helmet display*
Posted on September 30, 2019 by buffalo — No Comments ↓





According to an exquisite picture exposed from China Air Force, helmet display has been adopted for J-10C fighter, which is comparable to the most advanced JHMCS joint helmet aiming system in the West!

J-10C medium-sized fighter jet is now regarded as one of the most advanced fighters of the Chinese Air Force, third only to J-20 and J-16 larger fighters.

This helmet display, in conjunction with PL-10 high-mobility air-to-air missiles specially developed for J-20, J-10C and J-16 fighters, is a perfect match against the world’s strongest combination of high-mobility fighters and fighting missiles. Correspondingly, the US military is equipped with a combination of JHMCS helmet display and AIM-9X Block II ” Sidewinder” air-to-air missiles, which is also being delivered to Taiwan Air Force in the near future along with F-16V fighters.

It was reported that advanced helmet display systems like JHMCS joint helmet aiming system of US military pilots, need to be specially tailored to pilots’ head shape, so its design, manufacture, delivery, and matching takes a longer time and costs more. But its combat ability is obviously very high.

This specially developed helmet of China Air Force would further improve the combat performance of J-10C fighter because it greatly improves the pilot’s ability to interact with the onboard complex avionics system, while also giving full play to J-10 ‘s high maneuvering combat. The missile’s maximum off-axis launch capability can even achieve targets that deviate more than 90 degrees from its own flight direction, such as targets that fly in its rear flanks.
https://www.china-arms.com/2019/09/j-10c-helmet-display/

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## Su33KUB

Fsjal said:


> Makes a lot of sense. J-10 is pretty much in the same class as the F-16, both have similar sizes and similar ordnance payload capacity. However, based on Col. Boyd's energy-maneuverability theory, the J-10 is a turn-based fighter like Gripen compared to F-16 being energy-based instead.
> 
> I'm interested to know whether Thailand will choose F-16V or J-10C, since politics plays a lot in weapons acquirement. It's also interesting to know J-10C is actually cheaper than Gripen E/F despite J-10C being a class above it. This might give J-10C a higher chance of being procured by Thailand though RTAF does operate Gripen C/D already so the chance of Gripen E/F is still possible.


F-16 was designed as a tight turning aircraft, however consider it first flew in 1974, while J-10 was flown in 1997, J-10 is similar to Gripen because both were designed in the same period.

You are saying the F-16 is good at sustained turn rate (STR) and J-10 at (instantaneous turn rate) ITR, however STR is based upon thrust and ITR in lift/drag ratio, basically the max lift available or in order words wing loading.

Wing loading basically is based upon wing area and weight, the F-16 has a relatively high wing loading these days, most modern aircraft are in the range of 350 kg/m
J-10 is similar to Gripen because the wing area and weight ratio are similar, heavier aircraft also sustain higher loads at the same G load number, Su-27 needs a much stronger structure to achieve the same G load number than F-16 or J-10 because it is larger and heavier.
Further more there is different lift at max AoA than at lower AoA.

To summarize, J-10 and F-16 are turning type fighters, but since J-10 is newer, weight reduction and aerodynamic enhancements makes it a bit better at ITR, but both are turning aircraft, however F-16 has excellent thrust in the latest versions nevertheless it is used to increase warload to carry more fuel and weapons.



Fsjal said:


> I don't disagree with turn-based fighter jets having the ability to retain energy. The Flankers themselves are a great example since they're turn-based heavy fighters themselves and can still retain energy without bleeding too much of it during a tight turn (although energy from a supermaneuverable plane like the Flankers can be further bled if AoA limiters are off).
> 
> However, what makes a turn-based fighter different from energy-based fighters is that during continuous maneuvers and turns, an aircraft such as the J-10 or Rafale bleeds energy quicker than energy-based fighters such as F-16 or F/A-18, but at the same time these turn-based fighters have higher maneuverability in return.


F-18 was designed as a turning fighter, however it was designed when the most manoeuvrable soviet fighter was MiG-21, its wing and highly swept LEX made it able to out turn Viggen and MiG-21.

J-10 was designed much later an it supposed to beat F-16 and MiG-29, but remember by that time Russia was designing MiG-1.44 and the USA YF-22, the arms race is like that, J-10 is a 4th generation aircraft with very similar performance to most of its peers, F-16, MiG-29 or Gripen.

The F-16 is still an aircraft with the avionics and weapons to match any thing you have in J-10 or MiG-29.


In price is excellent because they have made more than 4000 so the purchase of F-16 guarantee a very well proven design, with the right avionics can match anything made in Europe, Russia, or China, the J-10 if purchased by any nation is due to geopolitics and in the case of China domestic production, but both aircraft have areas of superiority and disadvantages with respect each other


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## LKJ86

Via @inSky_1865 from Weibo


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## LKJ86

Via @前站起飞 from Weibo


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## LKJ86

J-10B










Via @用影像记录生活 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10SY




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## LKJ86

Via ChinaPictorial


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## Fsjal

Su33KUB said:


> F-16 was designed as a tight turning aircraft, however consider it first flew in 1974, while J-10 was flown in 1997, J-10 is similar to Gripen because both were designed in the same period.



The prototype radar-less YF-16 itself did prov to be a tight turning fighter jet during test flight, which isn't surprising since it was designed as a dogfighter from the start especially with the interests of the _Fighter Mafia_, however the current variants of the F-16 are different from how the aircraft was originally designed due to increase in weight, not to mention certain variants having conformal fuel tanks that basically decreases maneuverability.



> J-10 is similar to Gripen because the wing area and weight ratio are similar, heavier aircraft also sustain higher loads at the same G load number, Su-27 needs a much stronger structure to achieve the same G load number than F-16 or J-10 because it is larger and heavier.



I would argue that Gripen's wing area is basically in between the wing area of the F-16 and J-10, meanwhile the thrust-to-weight ratio of a J-10 is more comparable to that of an F-16 than that of a Gripen C/D. The only similarity between J-10 and Gripen is with their tailless-delta-canard configuration as well as being single-engine lightweight fighters. Other than that, J-10 has larger size dimension than Gripen and is also slightly heavier than at least the F-16C in terms of empty weight, gross weight, and max takeoff weight.

As for Su-27, the aircraft does need a strong but heavy airframe as a supermaneuverable fighter, especially on its large wings.



> To summarize, J-10 and F-16 are turning type fighters, but since J-10 is newer, weight reduction and aerodynamic enhancements makes it a bit better at ITR, but both are turning aircraft, however F-16 has excellent thrust in the latest versions nevertheless it is used to increase warload to carry more fuel and weapons.



I would disagree with the F-16 being a turn-based fighter if we're talking about the production variants. The YF-16 itself did indeed prove to being a turn-based fighter during flyoffs against the YF-17, but the production F-16s have increased weight because of avionics and ordnance. CFT-equipped F-16s are the ones who are basically far away from the Fighting Falcon's original design of being a pure turn-based dogfighter.



> F-18 was designed as a turning fighter, however it was designed when the most manoeuvrable soviet fighter was MiG-21, its wing and highly swept LEX made it able to out turn Viggen and MiG-21.



I would also disagree with the F/A-18 being a turn-based fighter. The YF-17 itself was outmaneuvered by its YF-16 competitor. The F/A-18C/D is slightly larger and heavier than YF-17, however both Hornets and Fighting Falcons are still maneuverable but not turn-based fighters.



> The F-16 is still an aircraft with the avionics and weapons to match any thing you have in J-10 or MiG-29.



Well, the J-10C itself has a lot of potential though especially against the F-16E/F/V, the combination of a modern AESA radar along with IRST and high maneuverability still makes the J-10C a strong competitor against regional rivals such as KF-16 and F-2A.



> the J-10 if purchased by any nation is due to geopolitics and in the case of China domestic production, but both aircraft have areas of superiority and disadvantages with respect each other



Any fighter jet an airforce buys, regardless where it comes from, always has geopolitical considerations added. That's why the US sometimes tells any of its close allies to not buy any certain weapons from other countries because of political undertones, a good recent example would the whole S-400/F-35 fiasco between the US and Turkey, or the whole Kilo-sub fiasco when the US told the Philippine government to not buy a Kilo-class SSK from Russia. Interesting that Thailand has interests in the F-16V, but considering that they've been buying from other sources (particularly China) kinda shows that Thailand wants to be a bit more flexible with acquiring weapons from foreign sources. The question is: would the US even sell the F-16V to Thailand and would they even allow the RTAF to acquire J-10Cs?


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## Su33KUB

Fsjal said:


> I would disagree with the F-16 being a turn-based fighter if we're talking about the production variants. The YF-16 itself did indeed prove to being a turn-based fighter during flyoffs against the YF-17, but the production F-16s have increased weight because of avionics and ordnance. CFT-equipped F-16s are the ones who are basically far away from the Fighting Falcon's original design of being a pure turn-based dogfighter.
> 
> 
> 
> I would also disagree with the F/A-18 being a turn-based fighter. The YF-17 itself was outmaneuvered by its YF-16 competitor. The F/A-18C/D is slightly larger and heavier than YF-17, however both Hornets and Fighting Falcons are still maneuverable but not turn-based fighters.


The Hornet is a pretty manoeuvrable aircraft, what you are trying to say is delta canards achieve a high ITR because of the configuration it self, which is not true, the J-10 is pretty agile because it has a larger wing than F-16 thus it has a lower wing loading, AJ-37 is also a delta canard and it will not out manoeuvre even a MiG-23. much less a MiG-29. The F-16XL had a huge wing, so huge it could outmanoeuvre the original F-16A in ITR, pretty much it was as good as the Lavi or J-10 and it was tailless.

However to understand why you have F-16s with such configuration you have to see 2 details, first with HMS and AIM-9X the small difference in ITR the J-10 has with F-16 does not matter except in battles without missiles.

The other factor is the strike mission, the F-16 with AIM-9X will allow heavier wing loading and higher attack capability at the same price keeping the same manufacturing tooling and basic model, reducing redesign the airframe and without even using thrust vectoring.


the F-18 is the same, it carries a large amount of weapons, takes off from a carrier, with AIM-9X will render even Su-35 useless, Thrust vectoring is only in reality good at supercruise or if you are fighting against aircraft without HMSs and aircraft armed with Air to Air missiles like AIM-9Ls, AA-8s or earlier type of missiles.

J-10C is a very capable machine, no doubt about it, but is basically as capable as MiG-35 or F-16V, and only superior to MiG-29A or F-16s without AESAs, pretty much it does not offer anything superior to these old cold war veterans, Rafale and Eurofighter offer supercruise capability, which is superior to all these fighters, but still well is low supercruise speeds, so they are not so different to MiG-35, F-16V or J-10C, but still enjoy some slight advantages


_Flight Demonstration Program Planning 63_

_But in actuality, this only held true for 1-g (straight and level) flight, and it partially accounted for the improved range and payload capabilities of the F-16XL. For example, on an air-to-surface mission, the F-16XL could carry twice the payload of the F-16 up to 40 percent farther without having to carry eternal tanks. With equal payloads and carrying external tanks, the XL mission radius was nearly double that of the F-16. A fully loaded F-16XL had a speed advantage of up to 80 knots calibrated airspeed (KCAS) in military power at sea level over the F-16 with a similar payload.25 However, during high-AoA sustained subsonic maneuvering, the F-16XL (like delta configurations generally) had a much higher induced drag penalty. This was a natural result of the aerodynamics of its very-low-aspect-ratio cranked-arrow wing. During the latter Air Force flight-test program, *this higher induced drag would prove to cause a rapid loss of excess energy. This, in turn, was manifested by a rapid loss of airspeed and altitude during sustained subsonic high-g turns as compared to the standard F-16.* In the “real world” of fighter-versus-fighter combat, this constituted a major performance deficit, given potential opponents such as the powerful and highly agile Soviet Mikoyan MiG-29 Fulcrum and Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker.26 In their briefings and marketing literature, General Dynamics emphasized that the F-16XL had two additional advantages that would contribute to increased overall effectiveness and survivability in combat situations. *These were its improved instantaneous maneuvering capability and its reduced radar cross section, as compared to the standard F-16. In an attempt to offset the reduced performance capabilities of the F-16XL* during sustained hard-maneuvering combat, GD highlighted its excellent instantaneous turning performance. This, they claimed, would enable an F-16XL pilot to quickly change direction and get his missiles off before an enemy was able to react and adjust his tactics. *In this regard, the F-16XL with its much lower wing loading did have a distinct instantaneous turning advantage, for it was able to reach 5 g’s in less than 1 second and 9 g’s in about 2 seconds. Both times were less than half those of the standard F-16A*

The Integrated Flight-Test Organization, Objectives, and Program
*
At the same altitude, the F-16XL’s instantaneous turn rate was 14 percent better than that of the standard F-16 when both aircraft were carrying their full air-to-air missile payload. In contrast, there was a significant loss of sustained turn capability compared to that of the F-16.* For example, at a Mach number of 0.9 at 30,000 feet, the F-16XL’s sustained turn rate was 30 percent lower than that of the F-16 in both the air-to-air and the air-to-ground configurations. This poor sustained turning performance compared to the F-16 was identified by the Air Force as resulting from the high induced drag of the F-16XL’s cranked-arrow wing and its relatively low thrust-to-weight ratio.
*
*_
https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/elegance_in_flight.pdf



This proves you an F-16XL more or less was as capable as a Lavi or J-10 in ITR

Lavi had a 24.5 deg/sec ITR at 15000 ft

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=PlpVCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT74&lpg=PT74&dq=lavi+iai+instantaneous+turn+rate&source=bl&ots=YLFxmHRAEr&sig=ACfU3U1Uhfqdg0dRaw_o5weQWLqIitPY9g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjtlYvSoKflAhUUNaYKHQ6wC1EQ6AEwBXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=lavi iai instantaneous turn rate&f=false

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## Fsjal

Su33KUB said:


> The Hornet is a pretty manoeuvrable aircraft, what you are trying to say is delta canards achieve a high ITR because of the configuration it self, which is not true, the J-10 is pretty agile because it has a larger wing than F-16 thus it has a lower wing loading, AJ-37 is also a delta canard and it will not out manoeuvre even a MiG-23. much less a MiG-29. The F-16XL had a huge wing, so huge it could outmanoeuvre the original F-16A in ITR, pretty much it was as good as the Lavi or J-10 and it was tailless.



I wasn't technically implying delta-canard configuration allows higher ITR since as you said it, that's not the case. I do strongly agree with larger wing area allowing for better agility and higher lift, it's why both Su-27 and F-15 can achieve great maneuverability despite being large heavy fighters. Plus before Viktor Belenko's defection, the MiG-25 was originally thought to be a heavy air-superiority fighter because of its large wings but was later proven to be a high-speed interceptor instead since its pair of big heavy engines negated the advantage of its large wings for maneuverability. No doubt that wing area plays an important role, and the J-10 does indeed have an advantage because of its larger wings.



> However to understand why you have F-16s with such configuration you have to see 2 details, first with HMS and AIM-9X the small difference in ITR the J-10 has with F-16 does not matter except in battles without missiles.
> 
> The other factor is the strike mission, the F-16 with AIM-9X will allow heavier wing loading and higher attack capability at the same price keeping the same manufacturing tooling and basic model, reducing redesign the airframe and without even using thrust vectoring.



The production-series F-16 variants were technically already "energy-based" fighters starting from F-16A due to increase in weight compared to the prototype YF-16, although this can be attributed to doctrinal emphasis on retaining energy rather than bleeding energy during WVR combat. The introduction of HMDs and AIM-9X and other off-boresight WVRAAMs no doubt made it a lot easier for the F-16s, especially ones that are carrying heavy ordnance and CFTs. The F-16 was once tested with a thrust-vectoring nozzle, but no production-series F-16 has been fitted with TVCs, in contrast TVC was tested on the Su-37 and since the Russians strongly appreciate instantaneous turning during WVR dogfights, TVCs would later be added to Irkut's line of Su-30s (MKI, MKA, MKM, SM variants) as well as the Su-35S. For the Su-35S itself, the TVC was basically added to cope with the removal of the canards while Irkut's own series of Su-30s use TVC to achieve supermaneuverability since its canards were actually meant to lift the heavy weight of the Bars-M radar.



> the F-18 is the same, it carries a large amount of weapons, takes off from a carrier, with AIM-9X will render even Su-35 useless, Thrust vectoring is only in reality good at supercruise or if you are fighting against aircraft without HMSs and aircraft armed with Air to Air missiles like AIM-9Ls, AA-8s or earlier type of missiles.



AIM-9X wouldn't technically render an Su-35 completely useless since the original F/A-18 lacks IRST, meanwhile the Super Hornet only has IRST on the Block III version and Advanced Super Hornet variant. As for F-16s, the only production variant in service that has IRST is F-16E/F. However, an IRST-equipped F-16 or Super Hornet together mated with AIM-9X would indeed be a very difficult target for the Flanker to deal with in dogfights.



> J-10C is a very capable machine, no doubt about it, but is basically as capable as MiG-35 or F-16V, and only superior to MiG-29A or F-16s without AESAs, pretty much it does not offer anything superior to these old cold war veterans, Rafale and Eurofighter offer supercruise capability, which is superior to all these fighters, but still well is low supercruise speeds, so they are not so different to MiG-35, F-16V or J-10C, but still enjoy some slight advantages



I think the reason why these 4.5 generation fighters don't really push the boundaries compared to 5th gen. stealth fighters is because the emphasis is more on avionics and not too often on flight capabilities. Rafale, Typhoon, and Su-35S do have supercruise abilities, which is quite a great advantage, but other than that, 4.5 generation fighters are more focused on avionics. All the pushing of boundaries and going even more supermaneuverable would go towards 5th gen. fighters instead. However, 4th gen. designs such as the F-15 ACTIVE, Su-37 and F-16XL did push the boundaries back in their time.

J-10C's AESA radar is said to be a version of the AESA radar used on the J-20, and since J-10C uses a modified airframe of the J-10B. Basically the C variant is essentially J-10B with increased avionics capability. Since J-10B was tested with TVC, the C variant has potential for TVC, and once China solves the engine problems, then maybe even use a newer engine variant to add supercruise capability too, which would indeed push the boundaries of the original J-10 design.



> This proves you an F-16XL more or less was as capable as a Lavi or J-10 in ITR



Yeah, F-16XL was an impressively-designed fighter jet. Those cranked delta wings really did give the aircraft various advantages over the standard F-16, pretty much making it perfect for not only as a strike fighter but even in dogfighting too. Shame that it lost to the Strike Eagle.


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## Deino

*Guys ... stay on topic please*


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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH











Via @东海舰队发布 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @B747SPNKG from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C










Via @解放军画报 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @DS南海听风 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @鼎盛飞豹 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10B



















Via @B747SPNKG from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 1

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## Ali_Baba

Interesting positioning of the SD10 missiles below the canards. Mistake or for real? No real pictures showing this.

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## Beast

Ali_Baba said:


> Interesting positioning of the SD10 missiles below the canards. Mistake or for real? No real pictures showing this.


Element of surprise for enemy in real war.

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## ZeEa5KPul

Ali_Baba said:


> Interesting positioning of the SD10 missiles below the canards. Mistake or for real? No real pictures showing this.


You can see the hardpoints just below the intake. https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chen...-news-discussions.3218/page-651#post-11853307

They're well away from the canards' range of motion. They probably can't carry the heaviest munitions, but they can certainly carry AAMs.

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## serenity

J-10B/C able to carry 8 PL-12, 2 PL-10, and one fuel tank for anti air mission. Back hardpoints cannot carry air missiles, fuel tank or pod. Only some small bombs. One underwing hardpoint can dual carry PL-12. Maybe we can replace those PL-12 with PL-15 capability. This nearly is same as J-16 or J-11 carriage capability. Only problem for J-10 is it makes the plane very heavy.

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## Fsjal

J-10 has eleven hardpoints, two of which are under the chin of the intake. Those two chin hardpoints seem to be mainly for targeting pods, though it is interesting to see BVRAAMs placed there on the miniature model.



serenity said:


> Maybe we can replace those PL-12 with PL-15 capability. This nearly is same as J-16 or J-11 carriage capability. Only problem for J-10 is it makes the plane very heavy.



Yeah, the J-10 would become less of a dogfighter and more of a missile truck. J-11 and J-16 would be more ideal for the missile truck duty due to their large size and long range.

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## LKJ86

J-10B/C







Via @wanquanfoto from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @别跟我抢荔枝这个昵称 from Weibo

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## ZeEa5KPul



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## python-000

ZeEa5KPul said:


> View attachment 587115


This looks great hoop we can use this with JF-17 Block 3...


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## Beast

ZeEa5KPul said:


> View attachment 587115


Looks very futuristic. Like alien technology. The finishing is top notch.

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## Deino

python-000 said:


> This looks great hoop we can use this with JF-17 Block 3...




No, once again... the WS-10 is a too large and powerful engine, it won't never ever fit in a JF-17.



Beast said:


> Looks very futuristic. Like alien technology. The finishing is top notch.




The question is only: Is this the real WS-10b-3 TVC demonstrator or just a mock-up like the JF-17 04 standing on its side?


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## python-000

Beast said:


> Looks very futuristic. Like alien technology. The finishing is top notch.


How dare you to talk about alien tech its only belong to Great shooper Power india...



Deino said:


> No, once again... the WS-10 is a too large and powerful engine, it won't never ever fit in a JF-17.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The question is only: Is this the real WS-10b-3 TVC demonstrator or just a mock-up like the JF-17 04 standing on its side?


my bro, i was only talking about TVC...

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## Deino

Deino said:


> The question is only: Is this the real WS-10b-3 TVC demonstrator or just a mock-up like the JF-17 04 standing on its side?




Looks quite nice, but I'm not sure if it is a real engine?

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Looks quite nice, but I'm not sure if it is a real engine?
> 
> View attachment 587146


A mock-up.

There is also a mock-up of FC-31:

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## Fsjal

Deino said:


> Looks quite nice, but I'm not sure if it is a real engine?
> 
> View attachment 587146


Those engine nozzles remind me of the multi-axis thrust-vectoring (MATV) nozzle used on F-16 VISTA, but with a jagged appearance. Could the serrated edge be for some sort of reducing rear RCS profile?


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## ZeEa5KPul



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## pkd

TVC

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## vi-va

pkd said:


> TVC


A mock-up
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chen...-news-discussions.3218/page-652#post-11870284


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## Deino

Two J-10Cs assigned to the 72nd Air Brigade.

(Image via yangheng via Huitong's CMA-Blog)

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## luciferdd

New batch of J-10C with WS-10 engine.

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## LKJ86

luciferdd said:


> New batch of J-10C with WS-10 engine.
> View attachment 588230


A milestone for J-10 and Chinese aircraft engine industry.

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## LKJ86

An old photo of CAC, showing vividly the development of Chinese aviation industry:




Via @机外停车Rabbit from Weibo

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## Umar Nazir

LKJ86 said:


> An old photo of CAC, showing vividly the development of Chinese aviation industry:
> View attachment 588270
> 
> Via @机外停车Rabbit from Weibo


chines still struggling to develop a reliable Engine for modern air crafts.


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## LKJ86

Umar Nazir said:


> chines still struggling to develop a reliable Engine for modern air crafts.


LOL
It was past already.

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## Umar Nazir

LKJ86 said:


> LOL
> It was past already.


yup but J20 and even J10 still using Russian AL-31F . 
Personally love to see mature and reliable indigenous Chinese Engine in these aircraft.


----------



## LKJ86

Umar Nazir said:


> yup but J20 and even J10 still using Russian AL-31F .
> Personally love to see mature and reliable indigenous Chinese Engine in these aircraft.


I think you have missed something already. LOL

Newly-builded J-20 and J-10 have said goodby to Russian engines already.

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## LKJ86

The canards of J-10:

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## ILC

星海军事 said:


> Only the ones on J-20 are called WS-10C. This is still WS-10B.


Do we have any estimates for a dry thrust?


----------



## LKJ86

Via @航空知识365 from Weibo


----------



## Umar Nazir

As per USA, F-16s will stay here as lethal fighter jet till 2070. If J10-C can do the same than Pakistan should export J10-c in good numebrs


----------



## LKJ86

Umar Nazir said:


> As per USA, F-16s will stay here as lethal fighter jet till 2070.


Impossible


----------



## Umar Nazir

LKJ86 said:


> Impossible


block 70 is too much lethal, probably better than Rafale. Will certainly stay till 2050 if not 2070


----------



## Beast

Umar Nazir said:


> block 70 is too much lethal, probably better than Rafale. Will certainly stay till 2050 if not 2070


Better maybe radar but not aerodynamic. F-16 in high speed turn will lose or bleed more compare to canard Rafale of less powerful engine.


----------



## LKJ86

Umar Nazir said:


> block 70 is too much lethal, probably better than Rafale. Will certainly stay till 2050 if not 2070


The development of fighter aircrafts slowed down due to the collapse of the former Soviet Union.

But it would speed up rapidly due to the competition between USA and China. F-16, J-10, and so on would be replaced very quickly.


----------



## Haris Ali2140

LKJ86 said:


> The development of fighter aircrafts slowed down due to the collapse of the former Soviet Union.
> 
> But it would speed up rapidly due to the competition between USA and China. F-16, J-10, and so on would be replaced very quickly.


USAF said that there will be trickling of tech into F16s from both F22 and F35. So it will be there for a long time. Same with J10s. 
This time cold war will be different as China has the leesons of the soviet.

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## LKJ86

Haris Ali2140 said:


> USAF said that there will be trickling of tech into F16s from both F22 and F35. So it will be there for a long time. Same with J10s.
> This time cold war will be different as China has the leesons of the soviet.


The cost of F-35 is coming down quickly.
Don't you understand what it means?

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## Umar Nazir

Beast said:


> Better maybe radar but not aerodynamic. F-16 in high speed turn will lose or bleed more compare to canard Rafale of less powerful engine.


More power full engine, speed and range and soon F16 will have AIM-260 Joint Advanced Tactical Missile (JATM).



LKJ86 said:


> The cost of F-35 is coming down quickly.
> Don't you understand what it means?


F35 need 3 days for 2nd flight where as F16 can fly 3 times in one day. So F16 is not going any where



LKJ86 said:


> The development of fighter aircrafts slowed down due to the collapse of the former Soviet Union.
> 
> But it would speed up rapidly due to the competition between USA and China. F-16, J-10, and so on would be replaced very quickly.


USA secretly working on F15-X , which mean 4th generation jets are going to stay here for long time.


----------



## LKJ86

Umar Nazir said:


> F35 need 3 days for 2nd flight where as F16 can fly 3 times in one day. So F16 is not going any where


F-35 just needs some time to be mature.
And the cost of F-35 is close to the latest version of F-16, but F-16 is meaningless to F-35.

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## Beast

Umar Nazir said:


> More power full engine, speed and range and soon F16 will have AIM-260 Joint Advanced Tactical Missile (JATM).



No point. PAF will not have the such potent missile from US. Given both F-16 and Rafale. I will take Rafale to have a higher survival chances against High G BVRAAM.

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## Umar Nazir

LKJ86 said:


> F-35 just needs some time to be mature.
> And the cost of F-35 is close to the latest version of F-16, but F-16 is meaningless to F-35.


maintenance and flying cost for F16 is too much low as compare to F35. Stealth technology is the only advantage which F35 have, but in coming years, Powerful radars will be invented which can track F35 as well.



Beast said:


> No point. PAF will not have the such potent missile from US. Given both F-16 and Rafale. I will take Rafale to have a higher survival chances against High G BVRAAM.


yup as far as PAF concern, USA will not sell even block 70 to Pakistan.


----------



## LKJ86

Umar Nazir said:


> maintenance and flying cost for F16 is too much low as compare to F35.


It is quite normal to every new fighter.


Umar Nazir said:


> Stealth technology is the only advantage which F35 have, but in coming years, Powerful radars will be invented which can track F35 as well


But it would be a worse news to non-stealth fighters.

Besides, 5th-generation fighters are not just stealth fighters.

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## LKJ86

Haris Ali2140 said:


> This time cold war will be different as China has the leesons of the soviet.


USA wants to maintain a technological edge to China, and China doesn't want to be USA's puppy, like Japan.
So, there are no other choices.

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## Fsjal

Umar Nazir said:


> maintenance and flying cost for F16 is too much low as compare to F35. Stealth technology is the only advantage which F35 have, but in coming years, Powerful radars will be invented which can track F35 as well.


Stealth tech isn't the only advantage stealth fighters like F-35 and J-20 have. Stealth fighters also feature advanced sensor fusion capability and powerful electronic warfare, not to mention very high maneuverability.

Upgraded 4.5 gen. fighter jets such as the J-10C, as well as F-16V, J-16 and F-15 Advanced Eagle, will stick around for a couple decades, however realistically they wouldn't remain up to 2070. In fact, an aircraft like J-10C would most likely be out service, or at least out of frontline duty, by somewhere around the 2040s-2050s.

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## Han Patriot

LKJ86 said:


> USA wants to maintain a technological edge to China, and China doesn't want to be USA's puppy, like Japan.
> So, there are no other choices.


Exactly, the last 2 real sovereignty and independent nation on earth is Russia and China. The rest ate either too weak or American puppies.

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## Deino

*Guys ... can we stay on topic please?*


----------



## LKJ86

Via @wanquanfoto from Weibo





Via 杨盼

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## LKJ86

J-10C



















Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C







Via @追风之翎 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C



















Via CCTV 7 and @鼎盛飞豹 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 588963
> 
> Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


With domestic WS-10B engine...

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## Deino

Beast said:


> With domestic WS-10B engine...



Nope ... just the closed nozzle.

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## Umar Nazir

where J10-C stand against Rafale ????


----------



## serenity

Umar Nazir said:


> where J10-C stand against Rafale ????



Impossible someone here knows and will tell you. Only lies and talking rubbish when it comes to sensitive questions.

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## Haris Ali2140

Umar Nazir said:


> where J10-C stand against Rafale ????


Air battles are no more one on one battle.

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Nope ... just the closed nozzle.


Sorry, that's wrong. look carefully. It's silver short nozzle and not burn out bluish petal of AL-31FN engine.

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## ziaulislam

Beast said:


> With domestic WS-10B engine...


whats the production number of J!0, have we crossed 400?


----------



## LKJ86

ziaulislam said:


> whats the production number of J!0, have we crossed 400?


Already over 500


----------



## Deino

Beast said:


> Sorry, that's wrong. look carefully. It's silver short nozzle and not burn out bluish petal of AL-31FN engine.



Honestly, I have to agree with you that the colour is a bit unusual, but the shape of the exhaust simply does not fit. Also, we know the 131st Brigade has that type since some type with most of its aircraft known, all are AL-31FN powered and we know that the first WS-10B powered ones were just flown only recently.

Just look here....

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Honestly, I have to agree with you that the colour is a bit unusual, but the shape of the exhaust simply does not fit. Also, we know the 131st Brigade has that type since some type with most of its aircraft known, all are AL-31FN powered and we know that the first WS-10B powered ones were just flown only recently.
> 
> Just look here....
> 
> View attachment 589024


Who know they swap out the life expanded AL-31FN engine with domestic engine recently?


----------



## khanasifm

So the big problem at least Rumored was as usual 300 or hour life or about 2-3 years before overhaul needed vs russian needing after 800-1000 (~7-10 years ) hours 

Is that still the case with ws-10 ?


----------



## LKJ86

Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

khanasifm said:


> So the big problem at least Rumored was as usual 300 or hour life or about 2-3 years before overhaul needed vs russian needing after 800-1000 (~7-10 years ) hours
> 
> Is that still the case with ws-10 ?


And then, why does J-10C still choose to give up Russian engine?


----------



## LKJ86

Via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via kj.81.cn

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## Figaro

khanasifm said:


> So the big problem at least Rumored was as usual 300 or hour life or about 2-3 years before overhaul needed vs russian needing after 800-1000 (~7-10 years ) hours
> 
> Is that still the case with ws-10 ?


I think these statistics are almost a decade old ...

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## LKJ86

China shows the model of J-10CE at Dubai Airshow-2019. And the mass-production version of J-10C equipped with WS-10 engine has came out.

IMO, China is looking for buyers for J-10CE.











Via China Aviation News

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## Umar Nazir

LKJ86 said:


> China shows the model of J-10CE at Dubai Airshow-2019. And the mass-production version of J-10C equipped with WS-10 engine has came out.
> 
> IMO, China is looking for buyers for J-10CE.
> 
> View attachment 589636
> View attachment 589637
> View attachment 589638
> 
> Via China Aviation News


wow a class jet. Very powerful engine, carrying good payload with excellent speed.Indeed a true medium weight fighter jet


----------



## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> China shows the model of J-10CE at Dubai Airshow-2019. And the mass-production version of J-10C equipped with WS-10 engine has came out.
> 
> IMO, China is looking for buyers for J-10CE.
> 
> View attachment 589636
> View attachment 589637
> View attachment 589638
> 
> Via China Aviation News




Any images showing the exhaust?


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Any images showing the exhaust?








Via @看航空 from Weibo








Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## Silicon0000

Which plane is this???

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## Pakistani Fighter

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 589708
> 
> Via @看航空 from Weibo
> 
> View attachment 589712
> View attachment 589713
> 
> Via @航空工业 from Weixin





LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 589708
> 
> Via @看航空 from Weibo
> 
> View attachment 589712
> View attachment 589713
> 
> Via @航空工业 from Weixin


What is the jet at right hand side of J 10?


----------



## LKJ86

Silicon0000 said:


> Which plane is this???
> 
> View attachment 589716


L-15



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What is the jet at right hand side of J 10?


FTC-2000G

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## Deino

J-10C & WS-10B

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## LKJ86

J-10AH & J-10SH
















Via @东海舰队发布 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @军报记者 from Weibo

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## lcloo

J10C with iron bombs. Showing its multi-role capability.

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> J10C with iron bombs. Showing its multi-role capability.
> 
> View attachment 592084




Looks like 500kgs bombs!?


----------



## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201163960097157121

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## Beast

When are they going to put the TVC version into service?


----------



## ZeEa5KPul

Beast said:


> When are they going to put the TVC version into service?


I don't think there was ever intended to be a TVC J-10. The plane that flew in the Zhuhai airshow was a tech demonstrator - the nozzles are intended for the J-20.

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## Adam_Khan

LKJ86 said:


> China shows the model of J-10CE at Dubai Airshow-2019. And the mass-production version of J-10C equipped with WS-10 engine has came out.
> 
> IMO, China is looking for buyers for J-10CE.
> 
> View attachment 589636
> View attachment 589637
> View attachment 589638
> 
> Via China Aviation News



Wish it had two wing tip hardpoints for IR guided missiles.


----------



## lcloo

J10C dropping iron bombs.

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S
















Via 解放军画报

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86

Via kj.81.cn

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## Han Patriot

Deino said:


> J-10C & WS-10B
> 
> View attachment 589947


J-10 is turning out to be a really sleek sexy plane.

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## Yan Yan



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## ZeEa5KPul

Yan Yan said:


> View attachment 596566


What's going on around the intake? What's that red blotch?


----------



## Ali_Baba

Yan Yan said:


> View attachment 596566



What is interesting is that the paint/coating on JF17 Block III is the sames as J10C, which of course was different from JF17 Block 1. Curious to know, why !

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## Deino

ZeEa5KPul said:


> What's going on around the intake? What's that red blotch?




The psed construction numbers


----------



## LKJ86

J-10AH
















Via @央广军事 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

By 杨盼

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## LKJ86

J-10S








By 沈玲

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## LKJ86

By 沈玲

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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH
















Via @央视军事报道 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10A

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214893497037316097

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## LKJ86

By 谢中武

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 598720
> 
> By 谢中武




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1215323707096420361

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## LKJ86

Via @现在又叫Songbird了 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## Umar Nazir

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 599671
> 
> Via @航空工业 from Weixin


how much expenditure on per hour flying and maintenance cost of the J-10 as compare to F-16s. 
can u share ??


----------



## LKJ86

Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86




----------



## LKJ86

J-10B




Via @航空新视野-赤卫 from Weibo


----------



## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86

J-10AH










Via 央广军事 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


----------



## Haris Ali2140

LKJ86 said:


> J-10AH
> View attachment 601025
> View attachment 601026
> View attachment 601027
> 
> Via 央广军事 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


Does all J-10s have HMDs???


----------



## Deino

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Does all J-10s have HMDs???




These are not HMDs. This is a GoPro-camera.


----------



## LKJ86

Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## Saifullah

LKJ86 said:


> J-10AH and J-10SH
> View attachment 598083
> View attachment 598084
> 
> Via @央视军事报道 from Weibo


Which engine is being used?


----------



## Deino

Saifullah said:


> Which engine is being used?



The regular AL-31FN ... all J-10A/AS are using it.

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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 601045
> 
> Via @航空工业 from Weixin


WS-10?


----------



## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S







Via kj.81.cn





Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10A




Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10AH




Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10A




Via 解放军画报

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2149270575176042

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2149270575176042


*Chinese air force's aerobatics team to attend Singapore Airshow*

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 602874
> View attachment 602876
> View attachment 602877



Interesting to see the new IFF antenna on the tail


----------



## lcloo

From East Pendulum
-10C en configuration SEAD, imaga via 空军在线

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## Beast

lcloo said:


> From East Pendulum
> -10C en configuration SEAD, imaga via 空军在线
> View attachment 604356


Lack carrying BVRAAM. Such configuration makes it very vulnerable to BVR attack.


----------



## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH




















Via @东海舰队发布 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10C and J-10S
















Via kj.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-10C













Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10S

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## LKJ86

Singapore
February 11, 2020

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## luciferdd



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## LKJ86

J-10C and J-10S



















Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Beast



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## LKJ86

J-10SH










Via @央视军事报道 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH

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## LKJ86

J-10AH

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S






















Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10C










Via kj.81.cn

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## LKJ86

Via @yankeesama的帧察小队 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @人民陆军 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Finally...
J-10C equipped with WS-10





Via https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/5Jr7e-vzQd6FJP_reufeVA

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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> Finally...
> J-10C equipped with WS-10
> View attachment 610318
> 
> Via https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/5Jr7e-vzQd6FJP_reufeVA


14.5 tons max thrust? Possible for J-10C to supercruise.


----------



## Deino

That really made my day  ... all that would make it a perfect day, is a serial number!


----------



## baqai

this is one aircraft i would love to see flying in PAF's colors

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## LKJ86

J-10B




Via @Neo双垂尾蓝光 from Weibo

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## luciferdd

J-10C with WS10B

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## LKJ86

Via @yankeesama的帧察小队 from Weibo


----------



## Deino

Great comparison of both a J-10C powered by the WS-10C and a J-10B powered by the AL-31FN.

(Image via HF-8086 at https://lt.cjdby.net/forum)

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## khanasifm

Deino said:


> Great comparison of both a J-10C powered by the WS-10C and a J-10B powered by the AL-31FN.
> 
> (Image via HF-8086 at https://lt.cjdby.net/forum)
> 
> View attachment 610523



Is there now official specs of Ws-10 available especially mtbo, thrust to weight ratio, specif fuel consumption etc and how many operational hours on the type now 

does it at least matches al-31 specs exceeding will make sense as well as 80/90 developed vs 2000/2010 developed engines ?


----------



## Tiqiu

About 3 years ago, I said here J10c is called J10c becuase of the use of ws10 engine. If I remember right back then deino said I am the only person had this belief.


----------



## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> About 3 years ago, I said here J10c is called J10c becuase of the use of ws10 engine. If I remember right back then deino said I am the only person had this belief.



I think the designation J-10C was never in question - even three years ago - esp. since it is written all over the aircraft's fuselage, wherever You see a construction number. I think - must I must admit, I'm not entirely sure anymore - you were claiming already three years ago, all J-10C were using the WS-10B, which was clearly not the case.

Anyway, You posted the first image of a Batch 05 J-10C and what surprises me, is that CAC indeed changed the engines right in the middle of Batch 04, so that there are AL-31FN and WS-10B powered ones within the same Batch.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1234351938436837376


----------



## j20blackdragon

Deino said:


> Anyway, You posted the first image of a Batch 05 J-10C



5 batches of possibly 75 aircraft each? That's a lot of PESA/AESA radars.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1052146508856930304


----------



## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> 5 batches of possibly 75 aircraft each? That's a lot of PESA/AESA radars.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1052146508856930304



I don't think these were all that large: Batch 01 aka J-10B) was said to comprise only about 54-56 aircraft, Batch 02 had indeed at least 75 aircraft (but I somewhere read these are always even numbers) abut for Batch 03 I only know 03.28 as the highest number, whereas Batch 04 has 04.40


----------



## Adam_Khan

Deino said:


> Great comparison of both a J-10C powered by the WS-10C and a J-10B powered by the AL-31FN.
> 
> (Image via HF-8086 at https://lt.cjdby.net/forum)
> 
> View attachment 610523



Deino the link you posted is not working,could you summarize the main differences between the two engines if you don't mind.


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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via @洋葱军事新闻 from Weibo

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## j20blackdragon

Deino said:


> I don't think these were all that large: Batch 01 aka J-10B) was said to comprise only about 54-56 aircraft, Batch 02 had indeed at least 75 aircraft (but I somewhere read these are always even numbers) *abut for Batch 03 I only know 03.28 as the highest number*, whereas Batch 04 has 04.40



If batch 02 reached 75 aircraft, why wouldn't subsequent batches also have 75 or more?


----------



## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> If batch 02 reached 75 aircraft, why wouldn't subsequent batches also have 75 or more?




Thanks for the image, but the same question reversed: Is is legit to assume that they are all the same even if we don't have any evidence and even more this high number does not fit to the units we know?

Given they are indeed all with 75, then we have at least three Batches (aka 02, 03 & 04) with 75 Aircraft each = 225 + 56 J-10B (Batch 01) = 281 at all.

This would be enough for 10 Brigades (with each 28 single seater) ... problem is, that we only have 7 Brigades (= est. 196-200 ac.) confirmed, which would better fit to lower numbers like about 56 in batch 01, 76 in Batch 02 and about 40 in Batches 3 & 4 making 212 J-10B/C alltogether.

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## Tiqiu

Deino said:


> I think the designation J-10C was never in question - even three years ago - esp. since it is written all over the aircraft's fuselage, wherever You see a construction number. I think - must I must admit, I'm not entirely sure anymore - you were claiming already three years ago, all J-10C were using the WS-10B, which was clearly not the case.
> 
> Anyway, You posted the first image of a Batch 05 J-10C and what surprises me, is that CAC indeed changed the engines right in the middle of Batch 04, so that there are AL-31FN and WS-10B powered ones within the same Batch.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1234351938436837376
> View attachment 610715


You misunderstood me, J10c is designed for using WS10B. Besides all the changes which have been well discussed here from J10B , the fundamental or underlying change is the use of WS10B. Some early production of J10c were show n of using the Russian engine for whatever the reasons it might be, but its not so difficult to change them back to the WS10B. Why would any brigade want to have two types of J10c with different maintenance and battle performance deployed?

Also I read somewhere that every batch is a fix number which is 54. Apart from for the reason from the production side, it is fixed so it can be easily delivered/distributed to the brigades. 6 for 9 brigades or so on. I could be wrong but I think a normal brigade is 18 J10c , or a reinforced brigade is 18 plus 6 (or 8)J10s. So you see this number 54 is not an any random number but rather a magical one I would say.

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## Deino

Tiqiu said:


> You misunderstood me, J10c is designed for using WS10B. Besides all the changes which have been well discussed here from J10B , the fundamental or underlying change is the use of WS10B. Some early production of J10c were show n of using the Russian engine for whatever the reasons it might be, but its not so difficult to change them back to the WS10B. Why would any brigade want to have two types of J10c with different maintenance and battle performance deployed?
> 
> Also I read somewhere that every batch is a fix number which is 54. Apart from for the reason from the production side, it is fixed so it can be easily delivered/distributed to the brigades. 6 for 9 brigades or so on. I could be wrong but I think a normal brigade is 18 J10c , or a reinforced brigade is 18 plus 6 (or 8)J10s. So you see this number 54 is not an any random number but rather a magical one I would say.



Then I apologise and I indeed misunderstood your post.
Anyway, this makes perfect sense ... with the exeption that the second Batch was indeed seen with higher numbers.


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## LKJ86

Via @空军在线 from Weixin

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## j20blackdragon

Deino said:


> Thanks for the image, but the same question reversed: Is is legit to assume that they are all the same even if we don't have any evidence and even more this high number does not fit to the units we know?
> 
> Given they are indeed all with 75, then we have at least three Batches (aka 02, 03 & 04) with 75 Aircraft each = 225 + 56 J-10B (Batch 01) = 281 at all.
> 
> This would be enough for 10 Brigades (with each 28 single seater) ... problem is, that we only have 7 Brigades (= est. 196-200 ac.) confirmed, which would better fit to lower numbers like about 56 in batch 01, 76 in Batch 02 and about 40 in Batches 3 & 4 making 212 J-10B/C alltogether.



These are the brigades that are known to operate J-10B/C right? Did I miss any?

78x1x
78x6x
78x7x ?
78x8x

61x3x
61x6x
66x7x
67x2x
68x3x
74x2x

How do you know the total number of aircraft per brigade?

If you were the Chinese government, would you reveal the names, serial numbers, and locations of each of your J-10B/C brigades?

Do you realize the US military can attack each of your brigades in a preemptive strike?

Has it ever occurred to you that some brigades might be located underground?
https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2011-01.html

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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @万全 from Weibo

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## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> These are the brigades that are known to operate J-10B/C right? Did I miss any?
> 
> 78x1x
> 78x6x
> 78x7x ?
> 78x8x
> 
> 61x3x
> 61x6x
> 66x7x
> 67x2x
> 68x3x
> 74x2x




Thanks for adding a few missing units, namely the 170th, the 177th and the 2nd Air Brigades. For the 177th so far I have no image nor report (78x8x) but i agree it is not unlikely. But since the first ones are only trials units, I don't expect them to be at a full Brigade's complement (esp. while flying also other types)

78x1x = 170. Brig
78x6x = 175. (not known by my list ??)
78x7x ? = 176. Brig
78x8x = 177. Brig. = 4x 6-8 = *24-32*

61x3x = 2. Brig
61x6x = 5. Brig
66x7x = 56. Brig
67x2x = 61. Brig
68x3x = 72. Brig
74x2x = 131. Brig = 6x 28 = *168*

In summary: *192 - 200 J-10B/C ... still very similar to my estimation*




> How do you know the total number of aircraft per brigade?



Agreed, this is not entirely known, but if you take the highest number counted and esp. the number of shelters, the 28 for a combat ready brigade (single seaters only) is not that far off.




> If you were the Chinese government, would you reveal the names, serial numbers, and locations of each of your J-10B/C brigades?



Surely not, but I think via several spotter, official reports and GoogleEarth I'm sure we have quite most of them identified.




> Do you realize the US military can attack each of your brigades in a preemptive strike?
> 
> Has it ever occurred to you that some brigades might be located underground?
> https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2011-01.html



First, why "Your brigades"!?? ... I'm a German, just to remind  ... anyway, such strikes are not possible out of the blue and given the most recent experience, these underground are no longer that important as they were in earlier periods. As such, the chance that there are several Brigades missing only since they are based underground and that these are all at a strength of say 35-40 aircraft is IMO slightly slim.

Best;
Deino


----------



## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> These are the brigades that are known to operate J-10B/C right? Did I miss any?
> 
> 78x1x
> ...



Fitting nicely ... 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1235208277073547264


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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via @ZHANGWENTIAN天天 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 611438
> 
> Via @ZHANGWENTIAN天天 from Weibo



From the 131st Air Brigade as it seems (?) ... at least it looks like a tail art!


----------



## ZeEa5KPul

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 611438
> 
> Via @ZHANGWENTIAN天天 from Weibo


How could you tell if it's a B or C from this angle?


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## LKJ86

ZeEa5KPul said:


> How could you tell if it's a B or C from this angle?

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## Deino

ZeEa5KPul said:


> How could you tell if it's a B or C from this angle?




Via these details

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## LKJ86

Via @七彩空港YAG from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 611563
> 
> Via @七彩空港YAG from Weixin




Diqing Shangri-La Airport ... via http://news.carnoc.com/list/515/515829.html as it seems


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## LKJ86

J-10C with WS-10
March 11, 2020




Via @052D成都舰 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10S




Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C with WS-10
> March 11, 2020
> View attachment 612824
> 
> Via @052D成都舰 from Weibo



Would love to see the construction number!


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## LKJ86

Old pics













Via @机外停车Rabbit from Weibo


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## Haris Ali2140

LKJ86 said:


> Old pics
> View attachment 613294
> View attachment 613295
> View attachment 613296
> View attachment 613297
> 
> Via @机外停车Rabbit from Weibo


Hey its the same place where BLK 3 took its first flight.


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## LKJ86

J-10AY and J-10SY







Via @白龙_龙腾四海 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Old pics
> View attachment 613294
> ...
> Via @机外停车Rabbit from Weibo




J-10C 201 during maiden flight?


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## StormBreaker

Deino said:


> J-10C 201 during maiden flight?


Intakes aren’t DSI


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## Deino

StormBreaker said:


> Intakes aren’t DSI




Yes for sure it is ...

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## ILC

That looks like J-10B.


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## Deino

ILC said:


> That looks like J-10B.




Yes, since the J-10C evolved from the B.


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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH













Via navy.81.cn


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-10AH and J-10SH
> View attachment 615685
> View attachment 615686
> View attachment 615687
> View attachment 615688
> 
> Via navy.81.cn




Am I wrong or were the regular 5-digit serials all removed and only the 2-digit ones retailed or are these numbers only erased to be published?


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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S






































Via kj.81.cn

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## kungfugymnast

What are the standard armaments for air to air, air to ground, CAS, Wild Weasel and anti-ship sorties?

Max air to air payload for J10 is 2x PL9 and 4x PL12 or 6x PL12 & 2x PL9?


----------



## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> What are the standard armaments for air to air, air to ground, CAS, Wild Weasel and anti-ship sorties?
> 
> Max air to air payload for J10 is 2x PL9 and 4x PL12 or 6x PL12 & 2x PL9?



Nope ... first of all your suggested weapon loads are much too high and second, there si no PL-9 in PLAAF service, this was only an AAM for export.

Given your question, the regular standard armaments for:

*Air to air:*
2 or a maximum of 4 PL-12 plus 2 PL-8B or 2 PL-15 plus 2 PL-10 have been seen.

*Air to ground:*
at best 2 LS-500J 500kg LGBs + a targeting pod or 2 KG-88 AGMs + a guidance pod

*CAS:*
still most often unguided rocket pods

*Wild Weasel:* 
2 YJ-91 ARMs + a guidance pod

*Anti-ship:* 
Not yet seen on the J-10. Otherwise it would be the YJ-83K.


Hope this helps.


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## LKJ86

Congratulations on J-10's 22nd birthday!

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Nope ... first of all your suggested weapon loads are much too high and second, there si no PL-9 in PLAAF service, this was only an AAM for export.
> 
> Given your question, the regular standard armaments for:
> 
> *Air to air:*
> 2 or a maximum of 4 PL-12 plus 2 PL-8B or 2 PL-15 plus 2 PL-10 have been seen.
> 
> *Air to ground:*
> at best 2 LS-500J 500kg LGBs + a targeting pod or 2 KG-88 AGMs + a guidance pod
> 
> *CAS:*
> still most often unguided rocket pods
> 
> *Wild Weasel:*
> 2 YJ-91 ARMs + a guidance pod
> 
> *Anti-ship:*
> Not yet seen on the J-10. Otherwise it would be the YJ-83K.
> 
> 
> Hope this helps.



Thanks for your answers, it helps. 

Air to air:
J10 only carries 6 air to air missiles despite being larger than F16? The F16C older variant with 27,000lb of max thrust could carry 8x air to air missiles. 

For air to ground, there's no compact missiles carried on racks? For Russian agm mostly large and heavy limited to just 1 missile per pylon. This means more J10s required to take out multiple targets just like Russian fighters such as Mig29SMT or Mig35. 

The US however could carry compact missiles/bombs on racks of 2 or 3 per pylon. The F16C could carry 6-12 agm65. The same goes to mk82, cbu87. This means a single F16C could carry mixtures of 2x aim9M, 2x aim120b, 6x agm65D, 2x drop tanks to attack air and ground targets.


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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> Congratulations on J-10's 22nd birthday!
> View attachment 616394
> View attachment 616396
> View attachment 616406
> View attachment 616407
> View attachment 616408
> View attachment 616409
> View attachment 616410
> View attachment 616411
> View attachment 616412
> View attachment 616413
> View attachment 616414
> View attachment 616415
> View attachment 616416































Via @万全 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> Congratulations on J-10's 22nd birthday!
> View attachment 616394
> View attachment 616396
> View attachment 616406
> View attachment 616407
> View attachment 616408
> View attachment 616409
> View attachment 616410
> View attachment 616411
> View attachment 616412
> View attachment 616413
> View attachment 616414
> View attachment 616415
> View attachment 616416













Via @现在又叫Songbird了 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C with WS-10




Via @资格雪人晒太阳 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> Congratulations on J-10's 22nd birthday!
> View attachment 616394
> View attachment 616396
> View attachment 616406
> View attachment 616407
> View attachment 616408
> View attachment 616409
> View attachment 616410
> View attachment 616411
> View attachment 616412
> View attachment 616413
> View attachment 616414
> View attachment 616415
> View attachment 616416

























Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> Congratulations on J-10's 22nd birthday!
> View attachment 616394
> View attachment 616396
> View attachment 616406
> View attachment 616407
> View attachment 616408
> View attachment 616409
> View attachment 616410
> View attachment 616411
> View attachment 616412
> View attachment 616413
> View attachment 616414
> View attachment 616415
> View attachment 616416


*The chief designer of J-10: 宋文骢 (1930.03.26 - 2016.03.22)*










Via @航空工业成都所 from Weixin

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Nope ... first of all your suggested weapon loads are much too high and second, there si no PL-9 in PLAAF service, this was only an AAM for export.
> 
> Given your question, the regular standard armaments for:
> 
> *Air to air:*
> 2 or a maximum of 4 PL-12 plus 2 PL-8B or 2 PL-15 plus 2 PL-10 have been seen.
> 
> *Air to ground:*
> at best 2 LS-500J 500kg LGBs + a targeting pod or 2 KG-88 AGMs + a guidance pod
> 
> *CAS:*
> still most often unguided rocket pods
> 
> *Wild Weasel:*
> 2 YJ-91 ARMs + a guidance pod
> 
> *Anti-ship:*
> Not yet seen on the J-10. Otherwise it would be the YJ-83K.
> 
> 
> Hope this helps.


Can the four fuselage pylon loaded with all 250kg JADM?


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## Deino

Beast said:


> Can the four fuselage pylon loaded with all 250kg JADM?




Weight-wise IMO yes, but is there a 250kg-JDAM in PLAAF service?


----------



## OldTwilight

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 616418
> View attachment 616419
> View attachment 616420
> View attachment 616421
> View attachment 616422
> View attachment 616423
> View attachment 616424
> View attachment 616425
> View attachment 616426
> 
> Via @万全 from Weibo



what is the price !?

Among Iranian member ,Im the one who want to have at least 200 fighter in J17 or J10 class , but others want su-30 0r su-35 , 

IMO , J10 is good options for us if we can co produce it with China in numbers


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## LKJ86

OldTwilight said:


> what is the price !?
> 
> Among Iranian member ,Im the one who want to have at least 200 fighter in J17 or J10 class , but others want su-30 0r su-35 ,
> 
> IMO , J10 is good options for us if we can co produce it with China in numbers


Su-30 or Su-35 would be a better choice for Iran to replace F-14.


----------



## LKJ86

Via @白龙_龙腾四海 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C





Via @goneless from Weibo

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## Deino

A hopefully useful comparison of the three main variant of the J-10B (Batch 01) and J-10C (Batch 02 to Batch 05). (Image via @资格雪人晒太阳 and @白龙_龙腾四海 from Weibo)

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> A hopefully useful comparison of the three main variant of the J-10B (Batch 01) and J-10C (Batch 02 to Batch 05). (Image via @资格雪人晒太阳 and @白龙_龙腾四海 from Weibo)
> 
> View attachment 616857


Well done!

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Weight-wise IMO yes, but is there a 250kg-JDAM in PLAAF service?


Maybe. They try to market this FT-6 glide bomb weight 250kg.

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## kungfugymnast

OldTwilight said:


> what is the price !?
> 
> Among Iranian member ,Im the one who want to have at least 200 fighter in J17 or J10 class , but others want su-30 0r su-35 ,
> 
> IMO , J10 is good options for us if we can co produce it with China in numbers



J10CE aka FC20 probably costs US$25 million per unit, could save cost on the domestic WS10 engine compared to having to buy AL31F engines from Russia in J10A. However, J10CE combat radius is suitable for defenses while Su30/35 are better for offensive roles. In terms of RCS and avionics, probably J10CE better

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## OldTwilight

kungfugymnast said:


> J10CE aka FC20 probably costs US$25 million per unit, could save cost on the domestic WS10 engine compared to having to buy AL31F engines from Russia in J10A. However, J10CE combat radius is suitable for defenses while Su30/35 are better for offensive roles. In terms of RCS and avionics, probably J10CE better


Well , there is some difference between opinion among Iranians in web which probably reflect our decision maker thought ....

People like me believe we should replace our dead air force with new simple cost effective fighter which can secure our sky against our not friendly neighbor ... For this purpose I suggest to try to buy and co produce cheap fighters like mig-35 , j10c , j17 and then try too acuire 5th fighter ... In general , I suggest we act like Pakistan to have an effective domestic air force ....

Other opinion is we have should buy Su35 , su30 or even j11 and then buy pakfa or j31 , or j20 too have an air force with strike capabilities ....


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## beyond2018

kungfugymnast said:


> J10CE aka FC20 probably costs US$25 million per unit, could save cost on the domestic WS10 engine compared to having to buy AL31F engines from Russia in J10A. However, J10CE combat radius is suitable for defenses while Su30/35 are better for offensive roles. In terms of RCS and avionics, probably J10CE better


Where did you know the $ 25 million unit price？

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## salarsikander

OldTwilight said:


> our not friendly neighbor


Who is not freindly, Iraq, Afhainstan or Pakistan ?



OldTwilight said:


> *j17*


JF-17


----------



## UKBengali

beyond2018 said:


> Where did you know the $ 25 million unit price？



@kungfugymnast 

I heard that J-10C is 40 million US dollar flyway price per plane.


----------



## OldTwilight

salarsikander said:


> Who is not freindly, Iraq, Afhainstan or Pakistan ?
> 
> 
> JF-17


Turkey , khaliji Arabs ....

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## LKJ86

J-10A


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-10A
> View attachment 617572
> View attachment 617573




Looks like 124th Air Brigade


----------



## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1243195549806989312
Arrrg ... stupid me!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1243202172617179138

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## LKJ86

J-10SH




Via www.81.cn


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-10SH
> View attachment 617768
> 
> Via www.81.cn




So it seems the regular red five-digit serials are gone ...

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## kungfugymnast

OldTwilight said:


> Well , there is some difference between opinion among Iranians in web which probably reflect our decision maker thought ....
> 
> People like me believe we should replace our dead air force with new simple cost effective fighter which can secure our sky against our not friendly neighbor ... For this purpose I suggest to try to buy and co produce cheap fighters like mig-35 , j10c , j17 and then try too acuire 5th fighter ... In general , I suggest we act like Pakistan to have an effective domestic air force ....
> 
> Other opinion is we have should buy Su35 , su30 or even j11 and then buy pakfa or j31 , or j20 too have an air force with strike capabilities ....



For joint venture with procurement of assembly plant, J10CE, Mig35, Su30M2 being locally built is possible if purchased in bulk. The belt & road is good enough to maintain logistics direct from China & Russia without having to worry on US embargo naval blockade. Country that would attack Iran is likely the US therefore Iran air force requirement for fighters must have large powerful radar, speed and range to protect Iran large air space. 

Stealth fighter J31 is definitely needed to counter US stealth planes. Iran would need satellite assistance from Russia & China to help spot any US stealth aircraft that tries to sneak through. 

Looking at Iraq, Serbia war with US, air defenses that could detect, track and shoot down US cruise missiles is important. Iraq, Serbia lost their supplies and bases from US cruise missiles and stealth bombers attack before they could fight US head on.



UKBengali said:


> @kungfugymnast
> 
> I heard that J-10C is 40 million US dollar flyway price per plane.



40 million US$ or RMB? If US$40million, you could buy the Su30M2 with armament & parts package. Wikipedia said J10A costs US$25 million per plane excluding package. J10C could save on importing Russian engine, is domestic WS10 engine cheaper by right?


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## UKBengali

kungfugymnast said:


> 40 million US$ or RMB? If US$40million, you could buy the Su30M2 with armament & parts package. Wikipedia said J10A costs US$25 million per plane excluding package. J10C could save on importing Russian engine, is domestic WS10 engine cheaper by right?




I do not think the Chinese engine would be much cheaper than the Russian one if at all.

J-10C is more expensive as it has AESA radar and more updated electronics.

40 million US dollars per plane is still fantastic value considering how advanced the J-10C is.


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## kungfugymnast

UKBengali said:


> I do not think the Chinese engine would be much cheaper than the Russian one if at all.
> 
> J-10C is more expensive as it has AESA radar and more updated electronics.
> 
> 40 million US dollars per plane is still fantastic value considering how advanced the J-10C is.



This makes sense. It is no longer affordable to Iran if priced at US$40 million. How much do you think the J31 would cost?


----------



## UKBengali

kungfugymnast said:


> This makes sense. It is no longer affordable to Iran if priced at US$40 million. How much do you think the J31 would cost?




Think anywhere from 60-80 million US dollars per plane but I am just guessing here.

Stealth would be costly as would the AESA radar, electronics and the two WS-19 engines.

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## LKJ86

J-10S






























































Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10S



















Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH













Via navy.81.cn

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## The Eagle

LKJ86 said:


> J-10AH and J-10SH
> View attachment 618896
> View attachment 618897
> View attachment 618898
> View attachment 618899
> 
> Via navy.81.cn



I see old style intakes?


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## LKJ86

The Eagle said:


> I see old style intakes?


They are not J-10B/C.


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## The Eagle

LKJ86 said:


> They are not J-10B/C.



I understand but I thought, A's style is not in production now but that is otherwise. How the SH are going to serve.


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## LKJ86

The Eagle said:


> I understand but I thought, A's style is not in production now but that is otherwise. How the SH are going to serve.


J-10SH is the navy version of J-10S.
And J-10S is still in production.

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## LKJ86

J-10C























































By 杨盼

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## Beast

kungfugymnast said:


> 40 million US$ or RMB? If US$40million, you could buy the Su30M2 with armament & parts package. Wikipedia said J10A costs US$25 million per plane excluding package. J10C could save on importing Russian engine, is domestic WS10 engine cheaper by right?



Pls dont think China always need cheaper price tag to win military deal. The VT-4 main battle tank for RTA are much more expensive at USD 5.8 million per pierce compare to USD 4.6 million per piece T-90S of Russia but RTA still buys VT-4 due to better performance when both tender for RTA deal. VT-4 mbt is a 100% indigenous tank including the fully auto transmission engine.

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## kungfugymnast

Beast said:


> Pls dont think China always need cheaper price tag to win military deal. The VT-4 main battle tank for RTA are much more expensive at USD 5.8 million per pierce compare to USD 4.6 million per piece T-90S of Russia but RTA still buys VT-4 due to better performance when both tender for RTA deal. VT-4 mbt is a 100% indigenous tank including the fully auto transmission engine.



VT4 is better newer bigger and packed more powerful engine than T90S ofcourse more expensive.

J10 at the other hand is medium fighter whereas Su30M2 is heavy fighter, different category and pricing. Put aside overpriced expensive fighters such as EF2000, Rafale and F2 as these fighters meant to make money from taxpayers. F16 for example is always costs less than F15. So J10 won't cost more than J11. Price of new J11D, J15 and J16 have increased to higher than US$50million.


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## LKJ86

J-10C




























By 吴龙飞

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## luciferdd

kungfugymnast said:


> VT4 is better newer bigger and packed more powerful engine than T90S ofcourse more expensive.
> 
> J10 at the other hand is medium fighter whereas Su30M2 is heavy fighter, different category and pricing. Put aside overpriced expensive fighters such as EF2000, Rafale and F2 as these fighters meant to make money from taxpayers. F16 for example is always costs less than F15. So J10 won't cost more than J11. Price of new J11D, J15 and J16 have increased to higher than US$50million.



In PLAAF "Golden Helmet“ exercicse，Su-30MKK/2 was unqualified from jioning the 3TH+ GEN group to fight against J10B/C,J16&su35,and even in the 3TH GEN group Su-30MKK/2 also hard to defeat J10A&J11B to qualified the last 8.


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## Beast

kungfugymnast said:


> VT4 is better newer bigger and packed more powerful engine than T90S ofcourse more expensive.
> 
> J10 at the other hand is medium fighter whereas Su30M2 is heavy fighter, different category and pricing. Put aside overpriced expensive fighters such as EF2000, Rafale and F2 as these fighters meant to make money from taxpayers. F16 for example is always costs less than F15. So J10 won't cost more than J11. Price of new J11D, J15 and J16 have increased to higher than US$50million.


F-16V cost more than a Su30MKK, so what is your call?


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## kungfugymnast

luciferdd said:


> In PLAAF "Golden Helmet“ exercicse，Su-30MKK/2 was unqualified from jioning the 3TH+ GEN group to fight against J10B/C,J16&su35,and even in the 3TH GEN group Su-30MKK/2 also hard to defeat J10A&J11B to qualified the last 8.



In Pakistan-India air engagement over Kashmir, if PAF telling the truth that their JF17 shot down IAF Su30MKi fitted with advanced Israeli avionics, then it could be true that Su30MKK lost to J10A & J11B over avionics superiority.



Beast said:


> F-16V cost more than a Su30MKK, so what is your call?



US and European fighters are always more expensive than Russian. A brand new F15SE with AESA AN/APG-63(CV3) costs US$100million. F/A-18E at $71million while F16E/F/V over $60million. 

European fighter prices are always overpriced. French Leclerc MBT is most expensive followed by German Leopard 2A6
Rafale C/M over $85-100million
EF2000 over $155million

Not that they could perform anything extraordinary with expensive parts and maintenance. The Rafale and EF2000 medium range radars are no match against AESA with tracking range below 60-80Nm at high altitude. In BVR, both Rafale and EF2000 could be splashed by US fighters with more powerful radar able to guide missiles to targets better.


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## LKJ86

Beast said:


> F-16V cost more than a Su30MKK, so what is your call?


HQ-9B also cost more than S-400.

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## HRK

kungfugymnast said:


> In Pakistan-India air engagement over Kashmir, if PAF telling the truth that their JF17 shot down IAF Su30MKi fitted with advanced Israeli avionics,


Just a clarification: PAF officially announced that both the kills were made by F-16 using AIM-120C-5.

Role of JF-17: JF-17 however confronted upgraded Mirage-2000I of Indian Air force and achieved BVR locks on latest upgraded Mirage jests and MiG-21, other than this Indian media itself reported malfunction of the radar of both Mirage Jets inside Indian Occupied Territory of Kashmir which mean JF-17 also perform good in EW domain.

In whole mission JF-17 acted as aggressor as well as in BARCAP roll, in aggressor role it provided escort to strike formation of 2 Mirage and 2 JF-17 equipped with H-4 and REK weapon respectively

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## Enigma SIG

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 619805
> View attachment 619806
> View attachment 619807
> View attachment 619808
> View attachment 619809
> View attachment 619810
> View attachment 619813
> View attachment 619814
> View attachment 619815
> 
> By 吴龙飞


Beautiful.


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## kungfugymnast

HRK said:


> Just a clarification: PAF officially announced that both the kills were made by F-16 using AIM-120C-5.
> 
> Role of JF-17: JF-17 however confronted upgraded Mirage-2000I of Indian Air force and achieved BVR locks on latest upgraded Mirage jests and MiG-21, other than this Indian media itself reported malfunction of the radar of both Mirage Jets inside Indian Occupied Territory of Kashmir which mean JF-17 also perform good in EW domain.
> 
> In whole mission JF-17 acted as aggressor as well as in BARCAP roll, in aggressor role it provided escort to strike formation of 2 Mirage and 2 JF-17 equipped with H-4 and REK weapon respectively



PAF said their F16C are based in southern territory, not near Kashmir. PAF said no F16 being used and US regulators inspected and clarified that PAF did not misuse their F16s under tight regulation of purchasing US equipments. PAF had HUD recordings and stated JF17s being used in the pursuit that entered foreign territory splashing 2x IAF fighters with SD10. Ever since then, demand for China weapons went up. 

IAF Mirage 2000 all these while only flown for air to ground sorties while Mig29 and SU30MKI provided air cover. Old Mig21 only for patrol and training, obsolete for offensive roles.

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## HRK

kungfugymnast said:


> PAF said their F16C are based in southern territory, not near Kashmir. PAF said no F16 being used and US regulators inspected and clarified that PAF did not misuse their F16s under tight regulation of purchasing US equipments. PAF had HUD recordings and stated JF17s being used in the pursuit that entered foreign territory splashing 2x IAF fighters with SD10. Ever since then, demand for China weapons went up.
> 
> IAF Mirage 2000 all these while only flown for air to ground sorties while Mig29 and SU30MKI provided air cover. Old Mig21 only for patrol and training, obsolete for offensive roles.


bro I am telling OFFICIAL position

- Secondly F-16 are not deployed only in South of Pakistan but in central Pakistan as well in fact more F-16s are deployed in central Pakistan,

- Again they were correct to say that No F-16 were used in the OFFENSIVE Operation inside Indian Occupied Territories which were conducted by JF-17 and Mirage Jets

- There is no restriction on the use of F-16 again its OFFICIAL position, what you read in media is propaganda by India, only restriction is _not to use it with 3rd party without US permission.
_
- The Video which was officially shown is the Video of strike on Brigade headquarter of Indian Army recorded with *camera seeker* of _H-4 stand-off weapon_ which as of now is configured ONLY with Mirage jet in PAF so video feed was received and recorded by Mirage Jet (old technology of late 1990s)

- JF-17 used indigenous Range Extension Kit with Mk-83 1000 lb bomb or (Mk-82 here I am mixing it up not quite sure) to strike assign targets

- JF-17 and F-16 both were performing BARCAP at our side of LOC

- Mirage-2000i is a Multi role aircraft and again it is official that 2 Mirage-2000i tried to counter PAF offensive package consist of JF-17 and Mirage Jets, JF-17 countered the Mirage-2000i of Indian Air Force and force them to leave the theater, even Indian media admitted the radar malfunction of both Indian Mirage jets and leaving the combate theater on this grounds

- JF-17 have data of multiple radarlocks to show against Indian Mirage Jets and as per some claim against Su-30 as well

- And now _this is my assessment_ that F-16 was prefered in BVR engagements that day because of its longer range AIM-120C-5 BVR missile, and _this is official that only 2 clearances were given that day to shot enemy aircrafts and both were given to F-16s_

Last thing that it is J-10 topic so I will not post any further post related to JF-17 or PAF and IAF aerial engagement of Feb-27 of last year, my previous post and this post is posted just to clarify the confusion and to keep the record straight.

Regards,

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## Deino

*Guys ... not again a PAF vs IAF in the China section!*

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> *Guys ... not again a PAF vs IAF in the China section!*



No offense Deino, the effectiveness of avionics in JF17 could roughly tell us picture of J10C avionics especially in RWR, detection, tracking and guiding missiles.



HRK said:


> bro I am telling OFFICIAL position
> 
> - Secondly F-16 are not deployed only in South of Pakistan but in central Pakistan as well in fact more F-16s are deployed in central Pakistan,
> 
> - Again they were correct to say that No F-16 were used in the OFFENSIVE Operation inside Indian Occupied Territories which were conducted by JF-17 and Mirage Jets
> 
> - There is no restriction on the use of F-16 again its OFFICIAL position, what you read in media is propaganda by India, only restriction is _not to use it with 3rd party without US permission.
> _
> - The Video which was officially shown is the Video of strike on Brigade headquarter of Indian Army recorded with *camera seeker* of _H-4 stand-off weapon_ which as of now is configured ONLY with Mirage jet in PAF so video feed was received and recorded by Mirage Jet (old technology of late 1990s)
> 
> - JF-17 used indigenous Range Extension Kit with Mk-83 1000 lb bomb or (Mk-82 here I am mixing it up not quite sure) to strike assign targets
> 
> - JF-17 and F-16 both were performing BARCAP at our side of LOC
> 
> - Mirage-2000i is a Multi role aircraft and again it is official that 2 Mirage-2000i tried to counter PAF offensive package consist of JF-17 and Mirage Jets, JF-17 countered the Mirage-2000i of Indian Air Force and force them to leave the theater, even Indian media admitted the radar malfunction of both Indian Mirage jets and leaving the combate theater on this grounds
> 
> - JF-17 have data of multiple radarlocks to show against Indian Mirage Jets and as per some claim against Su-30 as well
> 
> - And now _this is my assessment_ that F-16 was prefered in BVR engagements that day because of its longer range AIM-120C-5 BVR missile, and _this is official that only 2 clearances were given that day to shot enemy aircrafts and both were given to F-16s_
> 
> Last thing that it is J-10 topic so I will not post any further post related to JF-17 or PAF and IAF aerial engagement of Feb-27 of last year, my previous post and this post is posted just to clarify the confusion and to keep the record straight.
> 
> Regards,



Buying US made fighter jets have strict restrictions to follow. Failing which would result in spare parts embargo leaving the plane without spare parts from US which happened before. PAF officials said IAF lied by taking debris of AIM120C5 belonging to Taiwan Air Force. Without war being approved by US especially up against country that is not listed as bad guy in US list, PAF is not allowed to fly its F16 in offensive operation in India territory. The AIM120C5 has similar maximum effective range as SD10/PL12 at 60miles. Only AIM120C7 onwards have 80 miles range slightly more than PL12. 

IAF Mirage 2000 could still go air to air but most of the sorties, they fly for air to ground. Probably because of this, they didn't conduct frequent maintenance on the radar for air to air purpose and malfunctioned over time. In previous war on Kashmir, Mig29K provided air cover for Mirage2000 on bombing run. 

Back to J10C discussion, any idea on its ECCM capabilities if enemy has EA-18G on ECM jamming radar to make way for strike team to take out radar, SAMs and key ground targets?

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## Deino

If anyone feels a bit bored ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1245729265812979717
... and the following replies to my post:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1245964417939931138

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## Beast

kungfugymnast said:


> No offense Deino, the effectiveness of avionics in JF17 could roughly tell us picture of J10C avionics especially in RWR, detection, tracking and guiding missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> Buying US made fighter jets have strict restrictions to follow. Failing which would result in spare parts embargo leaving the plane without spare parts from US which happened before. PAF officials said IAF lied by taking debris of AIM120C5 belonging to Taiwan Air Force. Without war being approved by US especially up against country that is not listed as bad guy in US list, PAF is not allowed to fly its F16 in offensive operation in India territory. The AIM120C5 has similar maximum effective range as SD10/PL12 at 60miles. Only AIM120C7 onwards have 80 miles range slightly more than PL12.
> 
> IAF Mirage 2000 could still go air to air but most of the sorties, they fly for air to ground. Probably because of this, they didn't conduct frequent maintenance on the radar for air to air purpose and malfunctioned over time. In previous war on Kashmir, Mig29K provided air cover for Mirage2000 on bombing run.
> 
> Back to J10C discussion, any idea on its ECCM capabilities if enemy has EA-18G on ECM jamming radar to make way for strike team to take out radar, SAMs and key ground targets?



KLJ-7A(JF-17 blk 3) and KLJ-10A(J-10C) radar are 2 different things. It do not tell much.

Same as Type99A Main Battle Tank vs VT-4 Main battle tank. What is available for Type99A maybe absent from VT-4 tank.

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## kungfugymnast

Beast said:


> KLJ-7A(JF-17 blk 3) and KLJ-10A(J-10C) radar are 2 different things. It do not tell much.
> 
> Same as Type99A Main Battle Tank vs VT-4 Main battle tank. What is available for Type99A maybe absent from VT-4 tank.



If avionics in JF17 proven effective, that means avionics in J10 that is more advanced will perform way better. Avionics determine how good an aircraft in spoofing incoming missiles, searching & tracking enemy targets and guiding missiles to targets. The RWR in JF17 shows that China no longer using Russian style RWR that is less detailed on pinpointing incoming missiles and tracking radar location. More of US/EU style with RWR screen allowing pilots to plan and perform evasive maneuver spoofing chaff/flare at right time.

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> If anyone feels a bit bored ...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1245729265812979717
> ... and the following replies to my post:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1245964417939931138


You should show him the model that was made in 1982 and helped CAC get the project:

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> You should show him the model that was made in 1982 and helped CAC get the project:
> View attachment 620936
> View attachment 620937




Not sure if you took a look into this discussion and he refused everything ... the J-9, anything.

In his logic, the J-10 is a copy/clone

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> If anyone feels a bit bored ...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1245729265812979717
> ... and the following replies to my post:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1245964417939931138



Won't feel bored if there's military talk. The Lavi was designed out of F16 frame powered by Israeli turbojet engine and improved flight performance while minimizing cost. US threatened to cut fundings forcing Israel to abandon the project. US didn't stop merkava project mainly because of OIC pressuring US not to sell MBT M1 to Israel. The rumor on Israelis selling the Lavi design blueprint is true along with Python 3 missiles. 

For China, the J10 is larger based on medium fighter frame to fit larger AL31F engine and larger internal fuel tank to meet China's requirements to patrol larger border. Can't say J10 a copy but more of reverse engineering + own research done to come up with new fighter. For J10C, do you think they'll come up with racks that could carry 2-3 compact missiles/bombs per pylon like F16? There's Blue Arrow 21 missiles that are as big as AGM65 maverick now. An F16V carrying 2x AIM-9X, 2x AIM-120C, 6x AGM-65G, 2x drop tanks could take on enemy air patrols and destroy 6x ground targets (SAM/AAA, tanks, less armored building). For J10C that has larger internal fuel could come up with 2x PL10, 2x PL12 & 6x Blue Arrow 21 to perform similar multirole tasks?


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Not sure if you took a look into this discussion and he refused everything ... the J-9, anything.
> 
> In his logic, the J-10 is a copy/clone


Just according to their shapes, the model made in 1982 is much closer to J-10A (no overlapping between canards and delta wings, no wingtip pylons, single-seat ...).









Besides, you should ask him that how CAC in 1982 would know that LAVI failed in 1987.

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> ...
> 
> Besides, you should ask him that how CAC in 1982 would know that LAVI failed in 1987.



I know, but it is quite useless ... in the end I gave up.

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## Beast

kungfugymnast said:


> If avionics in JF17 proven effective, that means avionics in J10 that is more advanced will perform way better. Avionics determine how good an aircraft in spoofing incoming missiles, searching & tracking enemy targets and guiding missiles to targets. The RWR in JF17 shows that China no longer using Russian style RWR that is less detailed on pinpointing incoming missiles and tracking radar location. More of US/EU style with RWR screen allowing pilots to plan and perform evasive maneuver spoofing chaff/flare at right time.


If KJL-7A in JF-17 blk3 disappoint, will it mean the radar onboard J-10C is bad too?


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## Pakistani Fighter

Beast said:


> KLJ-10A(J-10C)


Whats its specifications?


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## kungfugymnast

Beast said:


> If KJL-7A in JF-17 blk3 disappoint, will it mean the radar onboard J-10C is bad too?



Why would JF17 block 3 disappoint when it is doing well? That is how people look at avionics, else why would you think so many confident with US avionics? Because of proven track records. Take E-2C for example, its ECM is good enough to jam all radio signals within its radius although its not EW-ECM aircraft until there's problem getting British Rapier2000 SAM to operate its radar and tracking system. So that country bought China & Russia SAM system instead.


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## Beast

kungfugymnast said:


> Why would JF17 block 3 disappoint when it is doing well? That is how people look at avionics, else why would you think so many confident with US avionics? Because of proven track records. Take E-2C for example, its ECM is good enough to jam all radio signals within its radius although its not EW-ECM aircraft until there's problem getting British Rapier2000 SAM to operate its radar and tracking system. So that country bought China & Russia SAM system instead.



Hard to say, if JF-17 blk 3 worst come to worst need to fight USAF. Going alone against US strike package will be an uphill task. JF-17 wblk 3 will take the rap if didnt goes well.


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## kungfugymnast

Beast said:


> Hard to say, if JF-17 blk 3 worst come to worst need to fight USAF. Going alone against US strike package will be an uphill task. JF-17 wblk 3 will take the rap if didnt goes well.



JF17 is currently flown by PAF, Myanmar & Nigeria. US has no intention to invade any of these 3. If US attacked Iran, its allies already said they will sponsor to buy large numbers of J10CE to be delivered via belt & road. The AESA radar is less prone to ECM and would perform better than pulse doppler radar.

Refer Iraq desert storm, Iraqi Air Force medium range SARH missiles inventory:
Mig-29A - R27R
Mig-23MF/ML - R23/24R
Mig-25PD - R40R
Mirage F1 - Matra Super 530F

None of them ever hit any US fighters throughout desert storm despite having range of over 20 miles, most likely due to US electronic warfare ECM from EF111A & EA-6B jamming. US AIM-7F/M & AIM-120A/B engagement range are around 25 miles. US missiles are not totally 100% hit chance neither as proven by Mig-25PD that managed to evade and spoof dozens of AMRAAMs launched from squad of F-15s.

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## Deino

*Can we please stop this now even further off-topic discussions? 
The JF & PAF was already off and nor Iraq!!!

Come on! *

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## Trailer23

*Images suggest China has begun fitting indigenous WS10 engine into J-10C fighters*
*05 March 2020*

China has begun fitting locally made Shenyang-Liming WS10 ‘Taihang’-series engines into its J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, images released on 2 March by state-owned broadcaster China Central Television (CCTV) suggest.





A screengrab from CCTV footage released on 2 March showing a J-10C multirole fighter in PLAAF
markings fitted with a Chinese-made WS10B engine. 
Source: CCTV.com​
The images show an apparently newly built Chengdu Aircraft Industries Company (CAIC) J-10C fighter aircraft in People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) markings fitted with what appears to a WS10B engine, rather than the Russian-made Saturn AL-31FN turbofan that normally powers these aircraft. All main-production J-10s built by 2018, about 300 aircraft, appear to be powered by the AL-31FN.

It is unclear when or where the CCTV images were taken but the pictured aircraft, which appears to be almost ready for delivery, seems to be part of the fourth production batch of J-10Cs for the PLAAF.

Meanwhile, an image allegedly taken in mid-December 2019 but only posted recently on Chinese online forums suggests that the fifth batch of J-10C fighters is currently undergoing testing. The blurry photograph shows a J-10C painted in yellow primer and bearing what appears to be serial number 502 during a test flight at CAIC’s production facility in Chengdu Huangtianba.

https://www.janes.com/article/94712...ng-indigenous-ws10-engine-into-j-10c-fighters

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## ILC

> J-10s built by 2018, about 300.


I think it should be about 400 or even more. I think in 2019 we were cheering 500 J-10?


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## Deino

ILC said:


> I think it should be about 400 or even more. I think in 2019 we were cheering 500 J-10?




You are correct, that is a typo - in fact a stupid one  - which slipped thru the latest checks


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## kungfugymnast

Trailer23 said:


> *Images suggest China has begun fitting indigenous WS10 engine into J-10C fighters*
> *05 March 2020*
> 
> China has begun fitting locally made Shenyang-Liming WS10 ‘Taihang’-series engines into its J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, images released on 2 March by state-owned broadcaster China Central Television (CCTV) suggest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A screengrab from CCTV footage released on 2 March showing a J-10C multirole fighter in PLAAF
> markings fitted with a Chinese-made WS10B engine.
> Source: CCTV.com​
> The images show an apparently newly built Chengdu Aircraft Industries Company (CAIC) J-10C fighter aircraft in People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) markings fitted with what appears to a WS10B engine, rather than the Russian-made Saturn AL-31FN turbofan that normally powers these aircraft. All main-production J-10s built by 2018, about 300 aircraft, appear to be powered by the AL-31FN.
> 
> It is unclear when or where the CCTV images were taken but the pictured aircraft, which appears to be almost ready for delivery, seems to be part of the fourth production batch of J-10Cs for the PLAAF.
> 
> Meanwhile, an image allegedly taken in mid-December 2019 but only posted recently on Chinese online forums suggests that the fifth batch of J-10C fighters is currently undergoing testing. The blurry photograph shows a J-10C painted in yellow primer and bearing what appears to be serial number 502 during a test flight at CAIC’s production facility in Chengdu Huangtianba.
> 
> https://www.janes.com/article/94712...ng-indigenous-ws10-engine-into-j-10c-fighters



Good, by right they should build more J10C with WS10 engines replacing all old junked fighters such as J7 and J8 that are still dangerously flying. If US attacked Iran out of sudden, just sell all existing J10A to Iran for them to defend themselves while China mass produce 400x J10C


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## PeacefulWar

kungfugymnast said:


> Good, by right they should build more J10C with WS10 engines replacing all old junked fighters such as J7 and J8 that are still dangerously flying. If US attacked Iran out of sudden, just sell all existing J10A to Iran for them to defend themselves while China mass produce 400x J10C


Well, I agree with the first part.
But why support Iran... I'd rather hope China make friend with America.


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## ZeEa5KPul

PeacefulWar said:


> I'd rather hope China make friend with America.


Well, you'll be hoping for a very long time.


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## kungfugymnast

PeacefulWar said:


> Well, I agree with the first part.
> But why support Iran... I'd rather hope China make friend with America.



When Trump first won election, he ended cold war by starting friendship with Russia & China as opposed to Democrats Hillary when she ordered Obama to sent military to Ukraine and South China Sea to heat up conflict to next level. When his "make America great again" economic plan failed (due to corrupted management in most of the large private sector companies), he turned bad and began attacking Russia and China blaming them for the failure. 

Iran is proving ground for Russia & China latest military equipments, a chance for them to get combat proven. If the avionics and weapons proven effective, they'll get good reputation and business on weapons sales. It is the only country that has wealth and capital that US is planning to attack.


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## Deino

*Can we please leave out politics and simply stick to the topic!*

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> *Can we please leave out politics and simply stick to the topic!*



Back to topic on J10A. Does it have IRST and optronic sensor for designating ground targets for laser guided bomb/missile? There's no optronic right after nosecone as in Su-27 and only in J10B. Can the J10A upgrade the radar to AESA and engine to WS10 TVC.


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## serenity

kungfugymnast said:


> Back to topic on J10A. Does it have IRST and optronic sensor for designating ground targets for laser guided bomb/missile? There's no optronic right after nosecone as in Su-27 and only in J10B. Can the J10A upgrade the radar to AESA and engine to WS10 TVC.



J-10A rumor is it will receive AESA radar upgrade like J-11B being upgraded to AESA now. Just simple radar package and some software change. Should allow to carry modern missiles after due to improved radar detection and upgraded softwares to link everything. This way old planes like J-11B and J-10A previously do not stand any chance against 4.5 generation fighter with PESA or AESA, now they at least can match in some ways.

Incorporate something like J-20 optic and infra red is wasteful and too expensive. Incorporate standard IRST is less useful and will require much more work to make it not worthwhile. Better to spend money making more J-10C and J-16 which already have good integration of infra red sensors. And overall performance is still better and younger life too so can use for longer.

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## kungfugymnast

serenity said:


> J-10A rumor is it will receive AESA radar upgrade like J-11B being upgraded to AESA now. Just simple radar package and some software change. Should allow to carry modern missiles after due to improved radar detection and upgraded softwares to link everything. This way old planes like J-11B and J-10A previously do not stand any chance against 4.5 generation fighter with PESA or AESA, now they at least can match in some ways.
> 
> Incorporate something like J-20 optic and infra red is wasteful and too expensive. Incorporate standard IRST is less useful and will require much more work to make it not worthwhile. Better to spend money making more J-10C and J-16 which already have good integration of infra red sensors. And overall performance is still better and younger life too so can use for longer.



Thanks for clarification. Without optronic sensor for the upgrade, the J-10A is only suitable for air to air role. Guess the AL31F engine will retain until all existing parts being used up before decide whether to fit WS10 or phase out.


----------



## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

kungfugymnast said:


> Thanks for clarification. Without optronic sensor for the upgrade, the J-10A is only suitable for air to air role. Guess the AL31F engine will retain until all existing parts being used up before decide whether to fit WS10 or phase out.



J-10A is no longer in production. Only J-10C is produced. J-10B can be upgraded to J-10C standard because same fuselage.

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## kungfugymnast

Austin Powers said:


> J-10A is no longer in production. Only J-10C is produced. J-10B can be upgraded to J-10C standard because same fuselage.



Good, should focus on J-10C production, need to phase out all old obsolete J-7/8. Should replace all old JH-7 with J-16 too in order to qualify modern air force status.


----------



## Maxpane

Is j 10 going to replace all j 7's ?


----------



## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Maxpane said:


> Is j 10 going to replace all j 7's ?



yup


----------



## kungfugymnast

Austin Powers said:


> yup



Just get rid of all those obsolete J-7, J-8, JH-7 old obsolete junk flying coffin that will only be shot down if flown against US. The H-8 old Tu-16 Badger too should retire. US F/A-18E/F would splash it out of the sky before it could get into missile effective range of US naval fleet. Just come up with new bomber powered by 4x WS10 engines with stealth material & internal bay would get the job done. China could take design cue from YF23 diamond shape for the new bomber. It could easily carry 40,000lb payload with range over 4000Nm. 

Future bomber required to have air to air role fitted with powerful long range AESA for long range intercept and rearward facing radar or IRST for self defense when fleeing. Also powerful ECM jammer while having crew of 2, 3 or 4.


----------



## Beast

kungfugymnast said:


> Just get rid of all those obsolete J-7, J-8, JH-7 old obsolete junk flying coffin that will only be shot down if flown against US. The H-8 old Tu-16 Badger too should retire. US F/A-18E/F would splash it out of the sky before it could get into missile effective range of US naval fleet. Just come up with new bomber powered by 4x WS10 engines with stealth material & internal bay would get the job done. China could take design cue from YF23 diamond shape for the new bomber. It could easily carry 40,000lb payload with range over 4000Nm.
> 
> Future bomber required to have air to air role fitted with powerful long range AESA for long range intercept and rearward facing radar or IRST for self defense when fleeing. Also powerful ECM jammer while having crew of 2, 3 or 4.


I think you have under estimate the capabilities of J-8F and JH-7A, they may not be so maneuverable than 4th jet fighter but they have the range, capacity to house modern avionic and payload to complete a lot of modern task. All J-7 series plane have relegate to training role only. But the J-8 and JH-7A series still have plenty to offer. Their huge nose cone can house even AESA if needed. JH-7A combat radius is so good that even refuel pod is not needed. They can become very fearsome interceptor or carry out bomb attack when needed.






J-8F with guided glided bomb






JH-7A with precision land attack missile.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Can anyone tell about the specifications of J 10C AESA?


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## zhxy

J-10 is a great fighter. Low cost, versatile, easy to maintain and upgrade. Comparing the J-10 and J-20 is like a confrontation between T-34 and Tiger. For China, the importance of J-10 is much higher than that of J-20. is the best aircraft in Chinese aviation industry history


----------



## Adam_Khan

Beast said:


> I think you have under estimate the capabilities of J-8F and JH-7A, they may not be so maneuverable than 4th jet fighter but they have the range, capacity to house modern avionic and payload to complete a lot of modern task. All J-7 series plane have relegate to training role only. But the J-8 and JH-7A series still have plenty to offer. Their huge nose cone can house even AESA if needed. JH-7A combat radius is so good that even refuel pod is not needed. They can become very fearsome interceptor or carry out bomb attack when needed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-8F with guided glided bomb
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JH-7A with precision land attack missile.




JH.7A as an interceptor, buddy it was never envisaged to be used for that purpose!


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## LKJ86

Adam_Khan said:


> JH.7A as an interceptor


...


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## kungfugymnast

Beast said:


> I think you have under estimate the capabilities of J-8F and JH-7A, they may not be so maneuverable than 4th jet fighter but they have the range, capacity to house modern avionic and payload to complete a lot of modern task. All J-7 series plane have relegate to training role only. But the J-8 and JH-7A series still have plenty to offer. Their huge nose cone can house even AESA if needed. JH-7A combat radius is so good that even refuel pod is not needed. They can become very fearsome interceptor or carry out bomb attack when needed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-8F with guided glided bomb
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JH-7A with precision land attack missile.



F-111G/F has even better range on internal fuel alone flying at low level supersonic that F-15E can't match. Yet US phased out the F-111F that could pull more than 5G better turn rate than J-8 & JH-7. Reason being when deployed to war out of sudden spotted and pursued by enemy fighters will be deadly. JH-7 even with PL-10 for self defense is useless against AMRAAM, its poor handling limit its evasive maneuver success rate. US fighters would launch 2 AMRAAM missiles at every target, you spoof 1 have to spoof the 2nd. US fighters always outnumbering their enemies. 

J-7 sent to flight training school for new recruits fine. Modernizing J-8 and JH-7 is wasting resources. Present air to air tactics, if you put J-8 with AESA up against US Navy F/A-18E, the F18 launched 2 AIM-120C7 at every J-8, the J-8 needs to perform evasive maneuver turning inside missile while spoofing chaff. The J-8 could hardly pull 5G to get its back facing the AMRAAM before performing the move, probably missile already reaching its side exposing large wing surface giving large RCS to the missile's radar. J-8 pilot could only level flight and spoof chaff but side RCS is still larger and most likely hit by the AMRAAM. Getting splashed is 1 but if its entire squadron of J-8 destroyed (due to poor maneuverability unable to perform evasive maneuver), the US F18s would proceed into air to ground sorties destroying friendly tanks, supplies, base on the ground.


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## Beast

kungfugymnast said:


> F-111G/F has even better range on internal fuel alone flying at low level supersonic that F-15E can't match. Yet US phased out the F-111F that could pull more than 5G better turn rate than J-8 & JH-7. Reason being when deployed to war out of sudden spotted and pursued by enemy fighters will be deadly. JH-7 even with PL-10 for self defense is useless against AMRAAM, its poor handling limit its evasive maneuver success rate. US fighters would launch 2 AMRAAM missiles at every target, you spoof 1 have to spoof the 2nd. US fighters always outnumbering their enemies.


F-111 is pulled out becos of the complicated and high maintenance sweep wing. JH-7A has none. The simple fixed sweep wing is easy to maintain and service, long legged, huge space for further avionics upgrade. Twin WS-9II turbofan that consume very little fuel while offer 7-8 tons payload which is decent for a fighter bomber. JH-7A is gonna to stay in PLAAF and PLANAF service for decades to come.

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## ZeEa5KPul

Beast said:


> JH-7A is gonna to stay in PLAAF and PLANAF service for decades to come.


Yeah, no. Those things belong in a museum.


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## kungfugymnast

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Yeah, no. Those things belong in a museum.



Agree, also the recycling plant is where obsolete JH-7 & J-8 should belong.



Beast said:


> F-111 is pulled out becos of the complicated and high maintenance sweep wing. JH-7A has none. The simple fixed sweep wing is easy to maintain and service, long legged, huge space for further avionics upgrade. Twin WS-9II turbofan that consume very little fuel while offer 7-8 tons payload which is decent for a fighter bomber. JH-7A is gonna to stay in PLAAF and PLANAF service for decades to come.



JH-7 is also seriously underpowered with numbers of crashes. It's more of liability flying coffin for pilots when war happens. The poor maneuverability would make it difficult to evade and spoof incoming missiles. It is easy target for US Navy fighters and ships. Remember the J-8 that failed to perform harassment move ended up with stalling and hit by US EP-3C Orion? It was really humiliating for PLAAF at that time.


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## Deino

Guys, can we stay both on topic and remain realistic? There si no need to discuss the JH-7A and J-8F in the J-10 thread!

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## Pepsi Cola

kungfugymnast said:


> Agree, also the recycling plant is where obsolete JH-7 & J-8 should belong.
> 
> 
> 
> JH-7 is also seriously underpowered with numbers of crashes. It's more of liability flying coffin for pilots when war happens. The poor maneuverability would make it difficult to evade and spoof incoming missiles. It is easy target for US Navy fighters and ships. Remember the J-8 that failed to perform harassment move ended up with stalling and hit by US EP-3C Orion? It was really humiliating for PLAAF at that time.


 if you want to make so many comments just go make your own thread...


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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Guys, can we stay both on topic and remain realistic? There si no need to discuss the JH-7A and J-8F in the J-10 thread!



The topic is about J-10C replacing ageing JH-7A and J-8F for air to air and air to ground roles. 

JH-7A is like SEPECAT Jaguar and Mitsubishi F-1, already obsolete. J-10C with optronic FLIR pod could designate ground targets for laser guided missiles and bombs. More air to ground compact multi-purpose missiles and bombs will be developed for taking out enemy ground vehicles, SAMs, troops, bunkers, base, etc meant for fighters like J-10C, J-16. Before this, JH-7A roles mostly focus on anti-ship and dropping unguided bombs. 

In air to air, the J-10C has the radar, IRST, HMC, RWR with some ECCM defenses against enemy ECM giving it better chance of survival against US F/A-18E/F, F-15C and some chance to get into visual range engagement with F-22, F-35.


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## LKJ86

kungfugymnast said:


> The topic is about J-10C replacing ageing JH-7A and J-8F for air to air and air to ground roles.


J-16 and J-20 are to replace JH-7/A and J-8, while J-10C to J-7.

So, There is no need to discuss the JH-7A and J-8F in the J-10 thread!

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## Maxpane

How many j 10 s are active in plaaf?


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## LKJ86

Maxpane said:


> How many j 10 s are active in plaaf?


Over 500.


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## zhxy

LKJ86 said:


> Over 500.


Quantity of 500 pieces is too much.

The J-31 project has been sluggish for years due to lack of funds. China can spend hundreds of billions of dollars on procurement, maintenance, expert training ... for J-10 but can't add another 2-4 billion to ShenYang


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## LKJ86

zhxy said:


> Quantity of 500 pieces is too much.


It is still not enough to China.
How many F-16s does USA have?


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## Maxpane

LKJ86 said:


> Over 500.


i mean j 10 s dual seaters


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## LKJ86

Maxpane said:


> i mean j 10 s dual seaters


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chinese-air-force-plaaf-news-discussions.84214/page-151#post-11733387



zhxy said:


> The J-31 project has been sluggish for years due to lack of funds.


Funny...
PLAAF and PLAN were just waiting for the development of J-20, and considered what they really needed next.

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## LKJ86

J-10C




By 杨军

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## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


> J-16 and J-20 are to replace JH-7/A and J-8, while J-10C to J-7.
> 
> So, There is no need to discuss the JH-7A and J-8F in the J-10 thread!



Good. More precise to say J-11D replacing J-8 while J-16 replacing JH-7A and J-10C replacing J-7. J-20 will grab up some shares from J-8 too.



zhxy said:


> Quantity of 500 pieces is too much.
> 
> The J-31 project has been sluggish for years due to lack of funds. China can spend hundreds of billions of dollars on procurement, maintenance, expert training ... for J-10 but can't add another 2-4 billion to ShenYang



J-31 will most likely for export. Iran will help drive up J-31 development as US is planning to attack Iran after Covid19 ending in US. 

For PLAAF, they'll order more J-20 as they wanted range. For PLAN, they'll decide after perfected launch system for carrier. J35 will be enlarged J31 or total new stealth fighter.

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## LKJ86

kungfugymnast said:


> Good. More precise to say J-11D replacing J-8 while J-16 replacing JH-7A and J-10C replacing J-7. J-20 will grab up some shares from J-8 too.


There are only J-10S, J-10C, J-11BS, J-15, J-16 and J-20 still in production, and J-11D has been given up.

And again, there is no need to discuss the JH-7A and J-8F in the J-10 thread!

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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Good. More precise to say J-11D replacing J-8 while J-16 replacing JH-7A and J-10C replacing J-7. J-20 will grab up some shares from J-8 too.
> 
> 
> 
> J-31 will most likely for export. Iran will help drive up J-31 development as US is planning to attack Iran after Covid19 ending in US.
> 
> For PLAAF, they'll order more J-20 as they wanted range. For PLAN, they'll decide after perfected launch system for carrier. J35 will be enlarged J31 or total new stealth fighter.




*Ok, since You don't want to listen ... take this as a warning: no more discussion on stupid theories - aka there is no J-11D and even less a J-31 for Iran - in this thread.*


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## LKJ86

J-10A





By 刘应华

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## PeacefulWar

LKJ86 said:


> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chinese-air-force-plaaf-news-discussions.84214/page-151#post-11733387
> 
> 
> Funny...
> PLAAF and PLAN were just waiting for the development of J-20, and considered what they really needed next.


Wah, didn't realize there are already 124 J-10s! Even more than J-10C


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## ILC

Do you think we will see in the future a J-10D or J-10C is the final variant?
If the J-10 is a replacement for the rest of J-7s, quite a few J-10C is to be built yet.


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## LKJ86

PeacefulWar said:


> Wah, didn't realize there are already 124 J-10s! Even more than J-10C


J-10S made its maiden flight in 2003, while J-10C in 2014.

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## kungfugymnast

ILC said:


> Do you think we will see in the future a J-10D or J-10C is the final variant?
> If the J-10 is a replacement for the rest of J-7s, quite a few J-10C is to be built yet.



J-10C already created a gap when J-10B didn't build in large numbers. Won't go to J-10D so soon but focus on building J-10C. Only question, whether the J-10C comes with TVC as standard engine.


Deino said:


> *Ok, since You don't want to listen ... take this as a warning: no more discussion on stupid theories - aka there is no J-11D and even less a J-31 for Iran - in this thread.*



If there's no J-11D, why is it on so many website articles? Further modifications such as avionics added to J-10B being renamed to J-10C. So all those AESA, new variant of WS10 with TVC added to J-11 will stay as J-11B?


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## Title123

serenity said:


> J-10A rumor is it will receive AESA radar upgrade like J-11B being upgraded to AESA now. Just simple radar package and some software change. Should allow to carry modern missiles after due to improved radar detection and upgraded softwares to link everything. This way old planes like J-11B and J-10A previously do not stand any chance against 4.5 generation fighter with PESA or AESA, now they at least can match in some ways.
> 
> Incorporate something like J-20 optic and infra red is wasteful and too expensive. Incorporate standard IRST is less useful and will require much more work to make it not worthwhile. Better to spend money making more J-10C and J-16 which already have good integration of infra red sensors. And overall performance is still better and younger life too so can use for longer.


L


serenity said:


> J-10A rumor is it will receive AESA radar upgrade like J-11B being upgraded to AESA now. Just simple radar package and some software change. Should allow to carry modern missiles after due to improved radar detection and upgraded softwares to link everything. This way old planes like J-11B and J-10A previously do not stand any chance against 4.5 generation fighter with PESA or AESA, now they at least can match in some ways.
> 
> Incorporate something like J-20 optic and infra red is wasteful and too expensive. Incorporate standard IRST is less useful and will require much more work to make it not worthwhile. Better to spend money making more J-10C and J-16 which already have good integration of infra red sensors. And overall performance is still better and younger life too so can use for longer.





kungfugymnast said:


> Just get rid of all those obsolete J-7, J-8, JH-7 old obsolete junk flying coffin that will only be shot down if flown against US. The H-8 old Tu-16 Badger too should retire. US F/A-18E/F would splash it out of the sky before it could get into missile effective range of US naval fleet. Just come up with new bomber powered by 4x WS10 engines with stealth material & internal bay would get the job done. China could take design cue from YF23 diamond shape for the new bomber. It could easily carry 40,000lb payload with range over 4000Nm.
> 
> Future bomber required to have air to air role fitted with powerful long range AESA for long range intercept and rearward facing radar or IRST for self defense when fleeing. Also powerful ECM jammer while having crew of 2, 3 or 4.





kungfugymnast said:


> Just get rid of all those obsolete J-7, J-8, JH-7 old obsolete junk flying coffin that will only be shot down if flown against US. The H-8 old Tu-16 Badger too should retire. US F/A-18E/F would splash it out of the sky before it could get into missile effective range of US naval fleet. Just come up with new bomber powered by 4x WS10 engines with stealth material & internal bay would get the job done. China could take design cue from YF23 diamond shape for the new bomber. It could easily carry 40,000lb payload with range over 4000Nm.
> 
> Future bomber required to have air to air role fitted with powerful long range AESA for long range intercept and rearward facing radar or IRST for self defense when fleeing. Also powerful ECM jammer while having crew of 2, 3 or 4.


They can J7 uses,jh7 for training pilot before going to fly J10 ,J16,if China must go to war with terrorists like in Syria, Jh7 combines with J16 is enough to destroying all terrorists.


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## kungfugymnast

Title123 said:


> L
> 
> 
> 
> They can J7 uses,jh7 for training pilot before going to fly J10 ,J16,if China must go to war with terrorists like in Syria, Jh7 combines with J16 is enough to destroying all terrorists.



LKJ86 and Beast already said J-7 is good for pilot training, a level above L-15 because J-7 is Mach 2 fighter with afterburner.

China is less lightly to get into war against militants unless US decided to equip militants in China through India & Afghanistan. J-10C is more suitable for tactical strike being small and agile with good RWR and FLIR pod taking out hidden enemies. JH-7A would only be called in for high speed dash bombing run, won't loiter.


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## LKJ86

kungfugymnast said:


> LKJ86 and Beast already said J-7 is good for pilot training, a level above L-15 because J-7 is Mach 2 fighter with afterburner.


I didn't say that.

PLAAF prefers J-10S and J-11BS.


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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> I didn't say that.
> 
> PLAAF prefers J-10S and J-11BS.


Me too, I say J-7 relegate to training pilot but never claim it's good in training. In fact, J-7 can help pilot get used to some high G training but not a very good trainer in clocking enough flying hours for 4th gen modern fighter jets. L-15 will be best candidate. But it's not a very cheap trainer compare to J-7, J-9L.


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## Armchair

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 622711
> 
> By 杨军



looks like the glasses are gold impregnated to keep out radar waves. A good upgrade for making them more stealthy.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> If there's no J-11D, why is it on so many website articles? Further modifications such as avionics added to J-10B being renamed to J-10C. So all those AESA, new variant of WS10 with TVC added to J-11 will stay as J-11B?



First of all since most of them are plain wrong and stupid enough to mix the prototype J-11D with the AESA-upgraded J-11BG ... anyway, we will see, but again, this is the -10 thread and no the J-11 one.


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## LKJ86

J-10S







Via kj.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-10C and J-10S























Via kj.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-10A, J-10B, J-10C, and J-10S




























Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @军戈飞扬 from Weibo

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## Khanivore

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1250826235388690434

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## LKJ86

J-10S










Via @央广军事 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10SH













Via @军报记者 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S










Via @空军在线 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10B and J-10S










Via kj.81.cn

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1253658334693068800

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## LKJ86

J-10C










Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via www.js7tv.cn and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C










Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

France's "J-10": Nord 1500 Griffon in the mid-1950s

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## Ultima Thule

LKJ86 said:


> France's "J-10": Nord 1500 Griffon in the mid-1950s
> View attachment 627486
> View attachment 627490
> View attachment 627491
> View attachment 627492
> View attachment 627493
> View attachment 627494
> View attachment 627495
> View attachment 627496


It was a mix POWER aircraft RAMJET+turbojet


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## Khanivore

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1254634287942365185

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1254700473443069952

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S

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## LKJ86

Via 解放军画报

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## LKJ86

J-10S
















Via kj.81.cn

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## kuge

LKJ86 said:


> J-10S
> View attachment 628492
> View attachment 628493
> View attachment 628494
> View attachment 628495
> View attachment 628496
> 
> Via kj.81.cn


j10S with WS10B in the 4th photo?


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## Deino

kuge said:


> j10S with WS10B in the 4th photo?




Nope ... only a bit distorted

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10C










Via kj.81.cn

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> J-10A and J-10C
> View attachment 630135
> View attachment 630136
> View attachment 630137
> 
> Via kj.81.cn

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258018362346688513

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## LKJ86

J-10C







Via @空军在线 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 630712
> View attachment 630713
> View attachment 630714
> View attachment 630715
> View attachment 630716
> 
> Via @南部空军 from Weixin



Still waiting for photos of J-10C loaded with guided air to ground missiles & bombs. PLAAF should have started fitting blue arrow family missiles by now. Guided air to ground armaments are vital to take out invading ground forces, mobile air defenses, structures effectively. Unguided bombs and rockets lacked the range and can't accurately hit small targets that are scattered apart.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Still waiting for photos of J-10C loaded with guided air to ground missiles & bombs. PLAAF should have started fitting blue arrow family missiles by now. Guided air to ground armaments are vital to take out invading ground forces, mobile air defenses, structures effectively. Unguided bombs and rockets lacked the range and can't accurately hit small targets that are scattered apart.




Here you are ... they are rare, but they are there!

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Here you are ... they are rare, but they are there!
> 
> View attachment 630784
> View attachment 630785
> View attachment 630786
> View attachment 630787
> View attachment 630788
> View attachment 630789



Yes, these are what everyone wanted to see. Thanks Deino. 1st photo, the rear looks larger than front, can't see radome clearly to tell whether it's radar guided missile or laser/visual guided bomb. 2nd photo is laser guided bomb? I guess the maverick equivalent blue arrow 21 has not entered service, hopefully they come with racks of 2x or 3x per pylon like AGM-65 allowing more to be carried. J-10C should be able to carry 6-10 blue arrow 21 hopefully on 2nd pylons (x2 rack) & inner large pylons (x3 rack).


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## LKJ86

J-10B











Via @万全 from Weibo

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

I haven't seen any J-10A in a while. Seems they are all withdrawn from service in favor of the DSI and AESA equipped J-10B/C.


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## Deino

Austin Powers said:


> I haven't seen any J-10A in a while. Seems they are all withdrawn from service in favor of the DSI and AESA equipped J-10B/C.




No, there are still several posted a few weeks ago at Chinamil.

Also, why should they replace the A-model while they still have several J-7 units in service?


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Deino said:


> No, there are still several posted a few weeks ago at Chinamil.
> 
> Also, why should they replace the A-model while they still have several J-7 units in service?



I think J-10A and J-7 replaced at the same time.


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## LKJ86

J-10C and J-10S
April 27, 2020

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C and J-10S
> April 27, 2020
> View attachment 631299
> View attachment 631300
> View attachment 631301
> View attachment 631302



It seems J-10A is very rare by now. The non DSI ones are almost always J-10S.


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## Deino

Austin Powers said:


> It seems J-10A is very rare by now. The non DSI ones are almost always J-10S.



Not sure why you ignore my reply to the same question? Maybe since you don't like facts ....




Deino said:


> No, there are still several posted a few weeks ago at Chinamil.
> 
> Also, why should they replace the A-model while they still have several J-7 units in service?



By e way, there are still more regular J-10A units than J-10B/C units even if you don't like it.


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Deino said:


> Not sure why you ignore my reply to the same question? Maybe since you don't like facts ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By e way, there are still more regular J-10A units than J-10B/C units even if you don't like it.



J-10A is pretty ugly. Pretty sure it's a priority to phased out J-10A.

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## Han Patriot

Austin Powers said:


> J-10A is pretty ugly. Pretty sure it's a priority to phased out J-10A.


The problem is the air intake area. Stupid design, I am sure it's a good fighter but aesthetics wise. Nay


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## Deino

Austin Powers said:


> J-10A is pretty ugly. Pretty sure it's a priority to phased out J-10A.




What a stupid agument. 

So you want the PLAAF to phase out a modern 4th generation fighter only since it is ugly while the retain much older and less capable 3rd generation fighters?

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## LKJ86

J-10A




Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## kungfugymnast

Austin Powers said:


> J-10A is pretty ugly. Pretty sure it's a priority to phased out J-10A.



Yeah Baby, we got Austin Powers in CDF now. The J-10A original paint looks nice and modern by the way, like single engined Eurofighter when I first saw it. Later they came up with black radome paint which is really bad taste by the person who came up with that color. They aren't phasing out J-10A yet unless there's rich country at war with US desperately need fighters immediately willing to buy while waiting for export variant J-10CE.



Han Patriot said:


> The problem is the air intake area. Stupid design, I am sure it's a good fighter but aesthetics wise. Nay



What's wrong with the air intake? In early 90's, that air intake design is still acceptable but as time flies, DSI looks futuristic making J10A air intake looks out fashion. Like F-15A and early F-15C compared to cancelled F-15F/SE/X, the air intake on older F-15A/C looks old fashion and plain. The same with F/A-18C/D air intake compared to F/A-18E/F


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## LKJ86

J-10C with WS-10B engine




Via @酒色财气吕洞宾 from Weibo

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## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C with WS-10B engine
> View attachment 631691
> 
> Via @酒色财气吕洞宾 from Weibo



Thought it's getting WS10 TVC?


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Thought it's getting WS10 TVC?



Nope ... that was never on the agenda, at least not yet.



LKJ86 said:


> J-10C with WS-10B engine
> View attachment 631691
> 
> Via @酒色财气吕洞宾 from Weibo




Would be interesting to know how recent this image is?!


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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Nope ... that was never on the agenda, at least not yet.
> 
> Would be interesting to know how recent this image is?!



Hopefully they'll make the TVC optional for J-10C, it's a trend to have TVC nowadays. Threat level rated higher with TVC.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Hopefully they'll make the TVC optional for J-10C, it's a trend to have TVC nowadays. Threat level rated higher with TVC.




Where is it a trend? Besides the Su-35 NO other 4th generation type uses a TVC-engine ...


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## Beast

Deino said:


> Where is it a trend? Besides the Su-35 NO other 4th generation type uses a TVC-engine ...


Can Su30MKI rated as one?

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## Jungibaaz

kungfugymnast said:


> Hopefully they'll make the TVC optional for J-10C, it's a trend to have TVC nowadays. Threat level rated higher with TVC.



It's really not useful in a modern BVR fight, even in a dogfight the AoA advantage has major trade-offs (bleeding all your energy), and it's not really required now with the combination of HOBS + HMD. So when it's used it trades energy for AoA, but it adds weight and complexity to an engine, probably increases maintenance, and requires some work on FCS of the aircraft you're adding it to.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> Can Su30MKI rated as one?



Upps ... you are correct! Indian types are so easy to omit.


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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Where is it a trend? Besides the Su-35 NO other 4th generation type uses a TVC-engine ...



Su-30MK and Su-30M2 series come with TVC and forward carnard optional.



Jungibaaz said:


> It's really not useful in a modern BVR fight, even in a dogfight the AoA advantage has major trade-offs (bleeding all your energy), and it's not really required now with the combination of HOBS + HMD. So when it's used it trades energy for AoA, but it adds weight and complexity to an engine, probably increases maintenance, and requires some work on FCS of the aircraft you're adding it to.



TVC is for dogfight use, you could easily turn in small radius with less effect to G than you pulling hard on flight stick enduring G-effects. It's not that you're using TVC all the time. Having it is added advantage, you quickly turn towards enemy to launch IR guided missiles, closer to boresight, your enemy has less chance to evade. Also easier to gun him down, scratch 1 down in flames


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Su-30MK and Su-30M2 series come with TVC and forward carnard optional.
> 
> 
> 
> TVC is for dogfight use, you could easily turn in small radius with less effect to G than you pulling hard on flight stick enduring G-effects. It's not that you're using TVC all the time. Having it is added advantage, you quickly turn towards enemy to launch IR guided missiles, closer to boresight, your enemy has less chance to evade. Also easier to gun him down, scratch 1 down in flames



And that's exactly wrong ... or what armchair analysts think how aerial combat works. You simple loose too much energy and the result is, You are a sitting duck in the air. That's why it is NOT a trend especially not to refit older types with it.

Why the Russians with their Su-30/35-family went that way is another story, but no Western AF uses this.

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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Which country are you from? Does your military operate fighters with TVC in the first place? Do you know few countries that have fighters with TVC engaged in friendly dogfights up against fighters without TVC from same country, regional and foreign as part of friendly training exercise?




Is that relevant especially since he shows much more understanding than you regardless that your country operates a TVC fighter! 

*And again ... STOP WITH THESE CONSTANT OFF TOPIC POSTS! *



IAU said:


> nA YOU THINKS IT IS THAT EASY TO YOU THINKS???




And for you, there is no need to write everything in CAPITALS

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> And that's exactly wrong ... or what armchair analysts think how aerial combat works. You simple loose too much energy and the result is, You are a sitting duck in the air. That's why it is NOT a trend especially not to refit older types with it.
> 
> Why the Russians with their Su-30/35-family went that way is another story, but no Western AF uses this.
> 
> Is that relevant especially since he shows much more understanding than you regardless that your country operates a TVC fighter!



Many think TVC is pointless because there is no video that actually shows how pilot uses TVC to dogfight for real. First TVC footage from US shows how TVC fighter turns with small radius inside F-16. Then there's X31 tech demonstrator followed by Su-35/37 years later. In air show, they only perform fancy maneuver to show what TVC could do.

In reality dogfight, TVC fighter comes with hold release button where you use it when needed. Right time to use when both fighters trying to get to each other tail when banking. You don't use TVC until the fighter loses thrust just like you don't keep banking until the air can't support lift leading to stall.

F-22 is using TVC. F-15, F-16, F/A-18 were made earlier and costly to fit them with TVC. F-35 is not planned to go dogfight so US didn't bother to install TVC in F-35A/C. With dying rivalry from Russia and its allies, US fighters will always outnumber their enemies launching 2 or more missiles at every target. Russia and China fighters are expected to engage in outnumbered fight so TVC is important if they survived the BVR engagement. 4 carriers battle group easily have 240 fighters where most of them F/A-18E/F while the rest are F-35C. There are already 6-8 AMRAAM and 4 AMRAAM per aircraft respectively with more than enough to destroy opposing fighters


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## LKJ86

J-10C

















Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

There would be a new variant of J-10?
Interesting...




Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## Pampa

IMHO, a two seater based in J-10C, with WS-10B engine, MRCA and training capable.
Regards





LKJ86 said:


> There would be a new variant of J-10?
> Interesting...
> View attachment 632906
> 
> Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


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## LKJ86

Pampa said:


> IMHO, a two seater based in J-10C, with WS-10B engine, MRCA and training capable.
> Regards


PLAAF has J-16 already...


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## Scorpiooo

Read on some Chinese page. News are circulating about new version of J10 after J10C.
Can be it J10D once rumored as semi sealth with sealth coating and EW improvement to have less RCS

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## IblinI

Scorpiooo said:


> Can be it J10D once rumored as semi sealth with sealth coating and EW improvement to have less RCS


Don't know if there is really a D varaint, even if it does, it is very least likely to be semi stealth, not economically viable.

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## Pampa

Export targeted.
Regards



LKJ86 said:


> PLAAF has J-16 already...[/QUOTE


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## Pampa

I mean expected new variant of J-10C.


Pampa said:


> Export targeted.
> Regards


----------



## serenity

No changes for new J-10 at all except for engine and radar difference maybe electronic warfare material. Semi stealth idea is ridiculous. I guess could be more powerful engine or a thrust vector engine type of WS-10.


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## enroger

serenity said:


> No changes for new J-10 at all except for engine and radar difference maybe electronic warfare material. Semi stealth idea is ridiculous. I guess could be more powerful engine or a thrust vector engine type of WS-10.



I don't give this "new" J-10 rumor too much credence, but Semi stealth is not that ridiculous depending on how stealthy they want. Say a 0.1m^2 frontal stealth (say 20 degree cone), does not care about any other angle is perfectly doable in low cost fashion.

ie, add structural absorber fillings on leading edge surfaces, saw-tooth treatment on trailing edges, semi-recessed carriage for two pl-15 under chin/intake...etc

Such upgrades still give very meaningful advantage in BVR fight.

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## LKJ86

J-10C








Via @万全 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10s in CAC:

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-10s in CAC:
> View attachment 634081




Interesting ... or better to say GREAT!

But no new J-20A visible (the one in the left is an old airframe).


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## LKJ86

"J10C0336"




Via @南部空军 from Weixin

"J10C0272"




Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## laser911

I will probably be off-topic a bit, but I found a very interesting canard design in J10. Most canard is symmetry section profile close to NACA00xx series, but J10 uses a complex twisted profile for canard. It seems it will generate lift at 0 AOA. Is it going to be more complex for aerodynamic design and FCS. What do you guys think? Does anyone know why they use this design?


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## Scorpiooo

News are in air Iran is pretty much interested to her good number of J10CE, any reality?


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## Deino

Scorpiooo said:


> News are in air Iran is pretty much interested to her good number of J10CE, any reality?




No!

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## Scorpiooo

Deino said:


> No!


Ok, thanks


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## JohnWick

Deino said:


> No!


Bangladesh is not interested either or sth going on regarding J-10C procurement?


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## Blacklight

laser911 said:


> I will probably be off-topic a bit, but I found a very interesting canard design in J10. Most canard is symmetry section profile close to NACA00xx series, but J10 uses a complex twisted profile for canard. It seems it will generate lift at 0 AOA. Is it going to be more complex for aerodynamic design and FCS. What do you guys think? Does anyone know why they use this design?


@Socra Would be a good candidate to answer this question.


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## Deino

An interesting Tweet was posted today by @JeffHwang_EntH:



> A rare evidence of J-10 naval version: wooden scaled model of J-10J.
> I found it by accident on Zhihu, the author's father was a worker in CAC. This model was used in the demonstration, and was brought back to home as a keepsake after the project was cancelled.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264792288330309633

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## enroger

laser911 said:


> I will probably be off-topic a bit, but I found a very interesting canard design in J10. Most canard is symmetry section profile close to NACA00xx series, but J10 uses a complex twisted profile for canard. It seems it will generate lift at 0 AOA. Is it going to be more complex for aerodynamic design and FCS. What do you guys think? Does anyone know why they use this design?


You got some good eyes... I'd love to know too.


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## Scorpiooo

Deino said:


> An interesting Tweet was posted today by @JeffHwang_EntH:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1264792288330309633


Can i ask reason for canceling this J10J naval version, would have been a great addition with low frying cost


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## serenity

Scorpiooo said:


> Can i ask reason for canceling this J10J naval version, would have been a great addition with low frying cost



Why buy last year's model car when you can buy next year's for same cost. Costs actually the same. We need to develop future generation fighters anyway so why buy 2x when you can just buy more capable fighter at start.


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## LKJ86

laser911 said:


> I will probably be off-topic a bit, but I found a very interesting canard design in J10. Most canard is symmetry section profile close to NACA00xx series, but J10 uses a complex twisted profile for canard. It seems it will generate lift at 0 AOA. Is it going to be more complex for aerodynamic design and FCS. What do you guys think? Does anyone know why they use this design?


The pics are from J-10B, and you can try to find some from J-10A/S.
CAC just tries to reduce J-10B/C's air drag and RCS.

J-10SH:


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## laser911

LKJ86 said:


> The pics are from J-10B, and you can try to find some from J-10A/S.
> CAC just tries to reduce J-10B/C's air drag and RCS.
> 
> J-10SH:
> View attachment 635444



We probably talking about different things. Yes. The antenna in front of the canard is an improved design in J10B/C. But I am talking about the wing profile, i.e. the section, of the canard. Your pic actually clearly shows the profile at root, and it is not symmetric (curved top and flat bottom). Most other canard fighters like rafale and eurofighter use symmetric profile which is curved top and bottom. Jas39 has a similar layout and root profile as J10 but it seems thicker than J10. But the tip is still symmetric. You can see the tip of J10's canard is even twisted to a double curved profile.


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## Beast

Scorpiooo said:


> Can i ask reason for canceling this J10J naval version, would have been a great addition with low frying cost


Single engine naval J-10 is risky plus China never has any experience for naval ops during those times. But canard design is actually good for naval ops. Short take off and short landing. Which is why J-15 needs the canard.

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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH

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## Deino

And for the first time a PL-10 spotted on a naval J-10AH ... if I'm not mistaken on any Naval aircraft.

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## enroger

laser911 said:


> We probably talking about different things. Yes. The antenna in front of the canard is an improved design in J10B/C. But I am talking about the wing profile, i.e. the section, of the canard. Your pic actually clearly shows the profile at root, and it is not symmetric (curved top and flat bottom). Most other canard fighters like rafale and eurofighter use symmetric profile which is curved top and bottom. Jas39 has a similar layout and root profile as J10 but it seems thicker than J10. But the tip is still symmetric. You can see the tip of J10's canard is even twisted to a double curved profile.
> 
> View attachment 635450



I think J-10's canard is supposed to contribute lift in leveled flight, while the other design's (gripen/ef2000...) symmetric canards only provide control torque, does not contribute lift in leveled flight.

In zero canard deflection and zero AoA, J-10's canard shift both center of lift and aerodynamic center forward. Symmetric canards only shift aerodynamic center forward, does not effect center of lift.

I think it is only a minor design choice, J-10's canard produce more lift yet also produce downward draft downstream onto the main wings, so overall L/D might not differ. Just my two cents....


----------



## laser911

enroger said:


> I think J-10's canard is supposed to contribute lift in leveled flight, while the other design's (gripen/ef2000...) symmetric canards only provide control torque, does not contribute lift in leveled flight.
> 
> In zero canard deflection and zero AoA, J-10's canard shift both center of lift and aerodynamic center forward. Symmetric canards only shift aerodynamic center forward, does not effect center of lift.
> 
> I think it is only a minor design choice, J-10's canard produce more lift yet also produce downward draft downstream onto the main wings, so overall L/D might not differ. Just my two cents....


If the overall L/D is the same or similar, whats the point of using such a complex design? It is going take more time to manufacture and increase costs. Also, I check most pic of J10 in air, the canard is at a slightly negative angle at most of time but positive AOA when gears and flaps down (ofc it is difficult to tell whats the actual AOA of canard from pic).


----------



## enroger

laser911 said:


> If the overall L/D is the same or similar, whats the point of using such a complex design? It is going take more time to manufacture and increase costs. Also, I check most pic of J10 in air, the canard is at a slightly negative angle at most of time but positive AOA when gears and flaps down (ofc it is difficult to tell whats the actual AOA of canard from pic).



For one it produces a more uniform lift distribution in the longitudinal axis, less stress on the airframe.

The canards must be positive AoA with respect to airstream in those pic you see, they are just negative deflect with respect to the plane. This is expected for a relaxed stability delta canard plane, the canards are still producing lift in those instances, the more AoA the plane is pulling the less lift from canards to keep the nose down.


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## LKJ86

J-10C










Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## laser911

enroger said:


> For one it produces a more uniform lift distribution in the longitudinal axis, less stress on the airframe.
> 
> The canards must be positive AoA with respect to airstream in those pic you see, they are just negative deflect with respect to the plane. This is expected for a relaxed stability delta canard plane, the canards are still producing lift in those instances, the more AoA the plane is pulling the less lift from canards to keep the nose down.


So the plane will always try to pitch down? It sounds like a stable design as the center of gravity is in front of the lift center of the main wing. A disturb increases AOA will generate more lift on the main wings and push the nose down as the main wings always generate more lift than the canards. Am I right? I remember I saw a video of Rafael on level flight, the canards were clearly moving up and down(sure it was negative AoA).
Also, it seems the wingtip of J10's canards twist down a lot and it seems they are trying to reduce the downwash?
as seen in last post by LKJ86.


LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 636117
> View attachment 636118
> View attachment 636119
> 
> Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


----------



## enroger

laser911 said:


> So the plane will always try to pitch down? It sounds like a stable design as the center of gravity is in front of the lift center of the main wing. A disturb increases AOA will generate more lift on the main wings and push the nose down as the main wings always generate more lift than the canards. Am I right? I remember I saw a video of Rafael on level flight, the canards were clearly moving up and down(sure it was negative AoA).
> Also, it seems the wingtip of J10's canards twist down a lot and it seems they are trying to reduce the downwash?
> as seen in last post by LKJ86.



No, it is the exact opposite; when in positive AoA the plane naturally wants to pitch up, the canards have to actively deflect downward to keep the nose down, the design is unstable.

My point is that in those instance the canards does not produce negative lift to hold the nose downward, it merely has to produce less positive lift because lift was uniformly distributed between main wind and canard.

I can't say I noticed any canard twist? If there is twist it is very subtle...


----------



## TOPGUN

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 636117
> View attachment 636118
> View attachment 636119
> 
> Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo



I am in love with J-10C

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## laser911

enroger said:


> No, it is the exact opposite; when in positive AoA the plane naturally wants to pitch up, the canards have to actively deflect downward to keep the nose down, the design is unstable.
> 
> My point is that in those instance the canards does not produce negative lift to hold the nose downward, it merely has to produce less positive lift because lift was uniformly distributed between main wind and canard.
> 
> I can't say I noticed any canard twist? If there is twist it is very subtle...



I mean when talking about stability of aircraft, people normally use this assumption: when the center of lift is behind the center of gravity, the aircraft is stable as if a small disturb increases the AOA, the lift increase and try to push the nose down to decrease the AOA. Therefore stabilise the aircraft. If the center of gravity in these canard fighters is in front of the center of lift of the main wing, it looks like a stable plane for me.
Found a few pages talking about this tho. Not saying they are 100% correct but make sense to me.
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/...t-dont-involve-a-flight-surface-that-provides
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ontrol-in-usa-and-other-countries.1624/page-3

For the twist, if you look at the image in ljk86 posted and my post, the wingtip front lead is facing down while rear edge seems level or slightly upward.


----------



## enroger

laser911 said:


> I mean when talking about stability of aircraft, people normally use this assumption: when the center of lift is behind the center of gravity, the aircraft is stable as if a small disturb increases the AOA, the lift increase and try to push the nose down to decrease the AOA. Therefore stabilise the aircraft. If the center of gravity in these canard fighters is in front of the center of lift of the main wing, it looks like a stable plane for me.
> Found a few pages talking about this tho. Not saying they are 100% correct but make sense to me.
> https://aviation.stackexchange.com/...t-dont-involve-a-flight-surface-that-provides
> https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ontrol-in-usa-and-other-countries.1624/page-3
> 
> For the twist, if you look at the image in ljk86 posted and my post, the wingtip front lead is facing down while rear edge seems level or slightly upward.




If you replace "center of lift" with "aerodynamic center" in your sentence than you would be right, those two are very different things
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerodynamic_center

In any case you can't possibly eye-ball a plane and tell where their CoM, aerodynamic center are. However you can tell whether a canard delta is stable or unstable by looking at how their canards behave. I've said already J-10's canards exhibit typical unstable behavior (pitch down when positive AoA to keep nose down just like rafale/typhoon/gripen...etc). If the plane does not have fbw it would easily flip over due to inherit instability...

As for the twist, you may be right it's there, but honestly its too subtle... I don't know the purpose of it. However J-10 main wing does have twist, usually it is for the purpose to prevent wingtip stalling before wing root (since the twist made incidence AoA smaller for wing tip), since wingtip stalling is disastrous for roll authority. I don't know what the twist does for canards though.


----------



## laser911

enroger said:


> If you replace "center of lift" with "aerodynamic center" in your sentence than you would be right, those two are very different things
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerodynamic_center
> 
> In any case you can't possibly eye-ball a plane and tell where their CoM, aerodynamic center are. However you can tell whether a canard delta is stable or unstable by looking at how their canards behave. I've said already J-10's canards exhibit typical unstable behavior (pitch down when positive AoA to keep nose down just like rafale/typhoon/gripen...etc). If the plane does not have fbw it would easily flip over due to inherit instability...
> 
> As for the twist, you may be right it's there, but honestly its too subtle... I don't know the purpose of it. However J-10 main wing does have twist, usually it is for the purpose to prevent wingtip stalling before wing root (since the twist made incidence AoA smaller for wing tip), since wingtip stalling is disastrous for roll authority. I don't know what the twist does for canards though.



Sorry, was using the wrong word. It is difficult to tell the actual AoA from pic, but from I think the AoA of canards are still positive (although it pitchs down but just smaller AoA than main wing) when the aircraft at high AoA. At least in some situations. As some pics show white steam above the canards.
EF2000: cant find any
Rafael: difficult but found one





https://in.reuters.com/article/braz...nch-fighter-jet-sources-idINDEE81C00X20120213
Jas39: found a few




J10: found a few


----------



## enroger

laser911 said:


> Sorry, was using the wrong word. It is difficult to tell the actual AoA from pic, but from I think the AoA of canards are still positive (although it pitchs down but just smaller AoA than main wing) when the aircraft at high AoA. At least in some situations. As some pics show white steam above the canards.
> EF2000: cant find any
> Rafael: difficult but found one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://in.reuters.com/article/braz...nch-fighter-jet-sources-idINDEE81C00X20120213
> Jas39: found a few
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J10: found a few



Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about a few posts back, lemme quote it again:



enroger said:


> The canards must be positive AoA with respect to airstream in those pic you see, they are just negative deflect with respect to the plane. This is expected for a relaxed stability delta canard plane, the canards are still producing lift in those instances, the more AoA the plane is pulling the less lift from canards to keep the nose down.


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## laser911

enroger said:


> Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about a few posts back, lemme quote it again:


But it seems eurofighter doesnt. Is it because it has a longer lever or it actually doesnt provide much lift?

I also check some more pic of J10, it seems the canards sometimes go totally negative AoA at almost level fly.

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## enroger

laser911 said:


> But it seems eurofighter doesnt. Is it because it has a longer lever or it actually doesnt provide much lift?
> 
> I also check some more pic of J10, it seems the canards sometimes go totally negative AoA at almost level fly.
> View attachment 636758



eurofighter doesn't what?

Those photos can be deceptive, you can't tell the true flight vector from this picture; what is the true horizon? is the plane in leveled flight and not descending/ascending/maneuvering?...etc

Edit: actually true horizon can be obtained from the picture, you notice those towers in the background? Assuming those are vertical then horizon is tilted a few degrees.

One of the key advantages canard delta has over conventional layout is the reduction of trim drag, since canard produce positive lift to maintain trim. For canard to actually produce negative lift in leveled flight(thus increase trim drag) would imply staggeringly incompetent design....


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## laser911

enroger said:


> eurofighter doesn't what?
> 
> Those photos can be deceptive, you can't tell the true flight vector from this picture; what is the true horizon? is the plane in leveled flight and not descending/ascending/maneuvering?...etc
> 
> Edit: actually true horizon can be obtained from the picture, you notice those towers in the background? Assuming those are vertical then horizon is tilted a few degrees.
> 
> One of the key advantages canard delta has over conventional layout is the reduction of trim drag, since canard produce positive lift to maintain trim. For canard to actually produce negative lift in leveled flight(thus increase trim drag) would imply staggeringly incompetent design....



It seems eurofighter doesn't need much lift from canards.

Could J10's canards be negative AoA but producing 0 lift or very little lift as it is not using symmetric airfoil?

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## enroger

laser911 said:


> It seems eurofighter doesn't need much lift from canards.
> 
> Could J10's canards be negative AoA but producing 0 lift or very little lift as it is not using symmetric airfoil?



yes, Ef2000's canard is pure control device, no lift, not even vortex generation.

also yes, I maybe a little hasty in saying negative AoA->negative lift, not true for asymmetric foil. 

However that picture does not show what you think it shows. As I said pay attention to those towers in the background to correct for true horizon (the picture itself is tilted), then you'll see even if you assume the plane is in leveled flight, the canards are at about zero degree with respect to horizon.

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> "J10C0272"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


"J10C0274"



















Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## laser911

enroger said:


> yes, Ef2000's canard is pure control device, no lift, not even vortex generation.
> 
> also yes, I maybe a little hasty in saying negative AoA->negative lift, not true for asymmetric foil.
> 
> However that picture does not show what you think it shows. As I said pay attention to those towers in the background to correct for true horizon (the picture itself is tilted), then you'll see even if you assume the plane is in leveled flight, the canards are at about zero degree with respect to horizon.



Thanks a lot. One more question from me. The aerodynamic center, known as the point where the moment is not affected by lift, but for canard planes like J10, the lift and pressure distribution varies a lot. How the aerodynamic center not moving backward/forward when canards are moving?


----------



## enroger

laser911 said:


> Thanks a lot. One more question from me. The aerodynamic center, known as the point where the moment is not affected by lift, but for canard planes like J10, the lift and pressure distribution varies a lot. How the aerodynamic center not moving backward/forward when canards are moving?



That's a very in depth question that is a little outside my knowledge, you'll really have to study an aircraft design textbook... 

In general, not only aero-center would shift due to control surface movements, all the flight coefficients will shift as well. This does not only apply to J-10 but to all aircraft as well.

Simplest way to deal with this is to start with a default model, then treat all control surfaces variation as linear perturbation as if each control surfaces change independently from each other. Of course if you do this you'll miss all the control surfaces coupling especially the canards have such large impact on main wing flow field.

Modern plane development exhaustively test different control surface config with CFD and wind tunnel tests then followed by years of test flight to correct the flight model, it gets very complicated...


----------



## laser911

enroger said:


> That's a very in depth question that is a little outside my knowledge, you'll really have to study an aircraft design textbook...
> 
> In general, not only aero-center would shift due to control surface movements, all the flight coefficients will shift as well. This does not only apply to J-10 but to all aircraft as well.
> 
> Simplest way to deal with this is to start with a default model, then treat all control surfaces variation as linear perturbation as if each control surfaces change independently from each other. Of course if you do this you'll miss all the control surfaces coupling especially the canards have such large impact on main wing flow field.
> 
> Modern plane development exhaustively test different control surface config with CFD and wind tunnel tests then followed by years of test flight to correct the flight model, it gets very complicated...



Indeed. I also found the leading edge flaps of J10 move downward a bit most of the time, but this one upward a bit when in air. It seems the FCS is far more complicated than I thought.


----------



## LKJ86

J-10C




Via 解放军报

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## Beast

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 637477
> 
> Via 解放军报


The bottom fuselage pylon looks capable of mounting PL-10 missile.


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## laser911

Beast said:


> The bottom fuselage pylon looks capable of mounting PL-10 missile.


it is too close to the inlet. The engine might stall if it sucks the smoke.

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## siegecrossbow

Beast said:


> The bottom fuselage pylon looks capable of mounting PL-10 missile.



Bottom fuselage pylons aren’t plumbed for missiles. They can carry bombs only.


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 637477
> 
> Via 解放军报




I would love to see the original image including the serial number


----------



## Scorpiooo

Questions from experts, why china has not focused on increasingly the range for J10x ,
As this bird have all others things like, payroad, speed avionics weapons.

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## LKJ86

Scorpiooo said:


> Questions from experts, why china has not focused on increasingly the range for J10x ,
> As this bird have all others things like, payroad, speed avionics weapons.


What's the problem of J-10's range?

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## laser911

Scorpiooo said:


> Questions from experts, why china has not focused on increasingly the range for J10x ,
> As this bird have all others things like, payroad, speed avionics weapons.


You are talking about design a new aircraft mate. More range=carry more fuel=heavier=need more power=new engine or 2 engines=even heavier....you might get J20 in the tho


----------



## Deino

Deino said:


> I would love to see the original image including the serial number

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## casual

Deino said:


>


is that a new pod under the intake?


----------



## LKJ86

Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-10B




Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Scorpiooo

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 639095
> 
> Via www.81.cn


Beauty and beast


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## LKJ86

J-9

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## LJQC

laser911 said:


> I mean when talking about stability of aircraft, people normally use this assumption: when the center of lift is behind the center of gravity, the aircraft is stable as if a small disturb increases the AOA, the lift increase and try to push the nose down to decrease the AOA. Therefore stabilise the aircraft. If the center of gravity in these canard fighters is in front of the center of lift of the main wing, it looks like a stable plane for me.



Actually it's the slope/gradient of the pitching moment (Cm) curve that defines static longitudinal stability. A RSS aircraft can exhibit both stable and unstable characteristics in different regions of AOA. Take the Cm curve of Jas-39 for example (taken from https://saabaircraftindustry.com/en...l-capability-development-for-control-systems/):





A negative slope means statically stable. And a positive slope means statically unstable.

But then, there's dynamic stability which is another thing.

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## laser911

LJQC said:


> Actually it's the slope/gradient of the pitching moment (Cm) curve that defines static longitudinal stability. A RSS aircraft can exhibit both stable and unstable characteristics in different regions of AOA. Take the Cm curve of Jas-39 for example (taken from https://saabaircraftindustry.com/en...l-capability-development-for-control-systems/):
> View attachment 640771
> 
> 
> A negative slope means statically stable. And a positive slope means statically unstable.
> 
> But then, there's dynamic stability which is another thing.


Very good one. Thanks. So the Y axis is Cm, X axis is AoA (down to -30/40 degree??), the top curve is max nose up control surface limit and the bottom curve is max nose down control surface limit?


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## LJQC

laser911 said:


> Very good one. Thanks. So the Y axis is Cm, X axis is AoA (down to -30/40 degree??), the top curve is max nose up control surface limit and the bottom curve is max nose down control surface limit?



Yes. The curve is in a -90 to 90 deg AOA range, with every AOA tick 20deg apart.


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## Scorpiooo

Really nice Art work by some fan by creating sealth look of J10x

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Ali_Baba

How many J10s does China have? How many of them are J10B's and C's ?

Wiki says 435 .. is this close to accurate?


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## siegecrossbow

Ali_Baba said:


> How many J10s does China have? How many of them are J10B's and C's ?
> 
> Wiki says 435 .. is this close to accurate?



Fifty J-10B and around 100 J-10C as of now.

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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> Fifty J-10B and around 100 J-10C as of now.




Really? 

a rough look at what c/n we know, their date of being first spotted and conclusion we know:

*Block - first seen - highest no. known*
-----------------------------------------------------
B-01 - 12.2013 - 01.22 (but reported are 01.54 and 01.55 too)
C-02 - 01.2016 - 02.75 (10.2018)
C-03 - 10.2018 - 03.39
C-04 - 11.2019 - 04.40
C-05 - 05.2020 - 05.12

IMO this fits nicely to the following estimation: about 56 in batch 01, 76 in Batch 02 and about 40 in Batches 3 & 4 making 212 J-10B/C (from Batch 01 - 04) + 12 in Batch 05 = 224 altogether.

But again, only my 2 cents!

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Really?
> 
> a rough look at what c/n we know, their date of being first spotted and conclusion we know:
> 
> *Block - first seen - highest no. known*
> -----------------------------------------------------
> B-01 - 12.2013 - 01.22 (but reported are 01.54 and 01.55 too)
> C-02 - 01.2016 - 02.75 (10.2018)
> C-03 - 10.2018 - 03.39
> C-04 - 11.2019 - 04.40
> C-05 - 05.2020 - 05.12
> 
> IMO this fits nicely to the following estimation: about 56 in batch 01, 76 in Batch 02 and about 40 in Batches 3 & 4 making 212 J-10B/C (from Batch 01 - 04) + 12 in Batch 05 = 224 altogether.
> 
> But again, only my 2 cents!



The more the merrier.

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## aziqbal

and probably more than over 500 of all variants of J10 A/S/AH/B/C


----------



## Scorpiooo

Deino said:


> Really?
> 
> a rough look at what c/n we know, their date of being first spotted and conclusion we know:
> 
> *Block - first seen - highest no. known*
> -----------------------------------------------------
> B-01 - 12.2013 - 01.22 (but reported are 01.54 and 01.55 too)
> C-02 - 01.2016 - 02.75 (10.2018)
> C-03 - 10.2018 - 03.39
> C-04 - 11.2019 - 04.40
> C-05 - 05.2020 - 05.12
> 
> IMO this fits nicely to the following estimation: about 56 in batch 01, 76 in Batch 02 and about 40 in Batches 3 & 4 making 212 J-10B/C (from Batch 01 - 04) + 12 in Batch 05 = 224 altogether.
> 
> But again, only my 2 cents!


Sir @Deino as you estimated seem too have 225 apx of J10B/C

Then how many are J10A sir ?


----------



## Figaro

Deino said:


> Really?
> 
> a rough look at what c/n we know, their date of being first spotted and conclusion we know:
> 
> *Block - first seen - highest no. known*
> -----------------------------------------------------
> B-01 - 12.2013 - 01.22 (but reported are 01.54 and 01.55 too)
> C-02 - 01.2016 - 02.75 (10.2018)
> C-03 - 10.2018 - 03.39
> C-04 - 11.2019 - 04.40
> C-05 - 05.2020 - 05.12
> 
> IMO this fits nicely to the following estimation: about 56 in batch 01, 76 in Batch 02 and about 40 in Batches 3 & 4 making 212 J-10B/C (from Batch 01 - 04) + 12 in Batch 05 = 224 altogether.
> 
> But again, only my 2 cents!


I think your analysis here is pretty on the point with regards to the serials we've seen. However, I think the true number of J-10Cs is even higher given the fighters we haven't seen yet ... just like the J-20.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Figaro said:


> I think your analysis here is pretty on the point with regards to the serials we've seen. However, I think the true number of J-10Cs is even higher given the fighters we haven't seen yet ... just like the J-20.



J-10B are all upgraded to J-10C standard since they share fuselage. J-10A are all scrapped.


----------



## siegecrossbow

Austin Powers said:


> J-10B are all upgraded to J-10C standard since they share fuselage. J-10A are all scrapped.



That’s not true. There are over two hundred J-10A still in service.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

siegecrossbow said:


> That’s not true. There are over two hundred J-10A still in service.



J-10A don't have the same fuselage as J-10B/C so these are getting replaced by J-10C.


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## lcloo

Austin Powers said:


> J-10A don't have the same fuselage as J-10B/C so these are getting replaced by J-10C.


What a waste throwing away some 6 years old aircraft, you must very filthy rich.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

lcloo said:


> What a waste throwing away some 6 years old aircraft, you must very filthy rich.



Not throwing away. It's called recycling.


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## lcloo

Austin Powers said:


> Not throwing away. It's called recycling.


----------



## Deino

Austin Powers said:


> J-10B are all upgraded to J-10C standard since they share fuselage. J-10A are all scrapped.





Austin Powers said:


> J-10A don't have the same fuselage as J-10B/C so these are getting replaced by J-10C.



Sorry to contradict and as it seems once again only a provocative post without any substance ... or please give any proof for this claim.

1. so far all delivered J-11Bs are still clearly visible as Bs in the known units ... as such "are upgraded" is definitely wrong

2. so far the only units which got J-10Cs instead of As were simply transferring these older models to other units, none so far was scrapped for your given reason of being "too old" 

3. as all others mentioned: Why scrapping a decent few-years old fourth generation fighter when in parallel several hundreds of even much older and less capable J-7s and J-8s are operational?

Plain ridiculous!

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## LKJ86

J-10A




















Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10B




By 杨盼

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## Armchair

Scorpiooo said:


> Really nice Art work by some fan by creating sealth look of J10x
> View attachment 641365
> View attachment 641366
> View attachment 641367
> View attachment 641368
> View attachment 641369
> View attachment 641370
> View attachment 641371
> View attachment 641372
> View attachment 641373



The problem with this kind of design from an aerodynamic point of view would be the excessive supersonic drag from the bulging waist. This has serious area ruling problems with it. not that this design is real but an interesting concept nonetheless.


----------



## The Ronin

Is that a jammer?

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## LKJ86

The Ronin said:


> Is that a jammer?
> 
> View attachment 647112


Yes

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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @万全 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10S




By 杨盼

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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## ÇölKaplanı

Well for some time I've been seeing rumors that Russia and China were on a race to modernize the IRIAF's fighter fleet. What do you guys think about that?


----------



## LKJ86

ÇölKaplanı said:


> Well for some time I've been seeing rumors that Russia and China were on a race to modernize the IRIAF's fighter fleet. What do you guys think about that?


Wrong thread.

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## LKJ86

J-10B

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## LKJ86

J-10C













Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH























Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via @刀尖舞者 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 649259
> 
> Via @刀尖舞者 from Weixin




Oh well ... when will we finally see a WS-10-powered J-10C in an operational unit?


----------



## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Oh well ... when will we finally see a WS-10-powered J-10C in an operational unit?


So now, you should understand the timeliness of military information from Chinese official media.


----------



## Figaro

Deino said:


> Oh well ... when will we finally see a WS-10-powered J-10C in an operational unit?


I have found that Chinese military watching has really helped me build up patience . It really has made me understand the definition of "patience is a virtue."

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## volatile

J10C probably a decade late wonderful plane


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## zhxy

Maybe in the future, Ws-15 will replace Ws-10 on J-10


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## Figaro

zhxy said:


> Maybe in the future, Ws-15 will replace Ws-10 on J-10


The J-10D will have stealthy features and be equipped with the WS-15

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## Beast

Aadi_1591 said:


> there are some **** jf17 fan boys who keep claiming there is only a minor difference between jf-17 and j10-c . im not an aviation expert but i see j-10c as much advance and capable fighter as compare to jf-17


Chinese are creator of both JF-17 and J-10. There is no one known better than Chinese which is a better plane.

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## LKJ86

J-10C










Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> So now, you should understand the timeliness of military information from Chinese official media.




I think I'm pretty well aware of this issue - and even if I don't like it, I have the feeling we are sometimes between 6 to 24 months late with new aircraft spotted, units formed ...  - and indeed similar to @Figaro I also learned a lot in building up patience (even if not enough) but it still hurts so much since "patience is a virtue", but surely not mine!

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## zhxy

Beast said:


> Chinese are creator of both JF-17 and J-10. There is no one known better than Chinese which is a better plane.



J-10 and JF-17 are very good. But Rafale is an aircraft not inferior. China should think seriously about creating fighters similar to Rafale.


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## flowerfan2020

zhxy said:


> J-10 and JF-17 are very good. But Rafale is an aircraft not inferior. China should think seriously about creating fighters similar to Rafale.


Why still try to create another 4.5 generation fighter since china already have 6 generation? China already have J10C and J16 fighter as good if not better than the Rafale.


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## zhxy

flowerfan2020 said:


> Why still try to create another 4.5 generation fighter since china already have 6 generation? China already have J10C and J16 fighter as good if not better than the Rafale.



China from a 3rd world country becomes a superpower like it is now. Because humility, not arrogant, calm and learn.

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## Figaro

zhxy said:


> China from a 3rd world country becomes a superpower like it is now. Because humility, not arrogant, calm and learn.


What benefit would China get from building another 4++ generation fighter when it already has the J-10C and J-16? IMO a waste of resources ... you could just buy more of those or the J-20 for the same development money

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## flowerfan2020

zhxy said:


> China from a 3rd world country becomes a superpower like it is now. Because humility, not arrogant, calm and learn.


I agree not to arrogant but this is nothing to do with arrogant. First what is your logic to build another 4.5 generation fighter? So what is the advantage of Rafale compare vs J10C and J16?
or Do you thing Rafale can even beat J20?


----------



## LKJ86

J-10C, J-10A, and J-10S








Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## kungfugymnast

Figaro said:


> What benefit would China get from building another 4++ generation fighter when it already has the J-10C and J-16? IMO a waste of resources ... you could just buy more of those or the J-20 for the same development money



I got banned by Deino for a month. 

J-10C and J-16 are needed for air to ground sorrties where stealth is not required but ability to carry more air to ground ordnance matters the most. US has far more main battle tanks than China. Situation where attack helicopters less suitable due to combat radius and too slow to reach on time. The J-16 and J-10C with FLIR optronic pods and ground search radar could carry more blue arrows missiles, guided bombs, cluster bombs to take out multiple tanks, vehicles, SAMs of invading army. 

J-20 is suited for air to air and also strategic strike sorties taking out heavily defended enemy high asset value targets.

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## kungfugymnast

flowerfan2020 said:


> I agree not to arrogant but this is nothing to do with arrogant. First what is your logic to build another 4.5 generation fighter? So what is the advantage of Rafale compare vs J10C and J16?
> or Do you thing Rafale can even beat J20?



Scenario where US invading army landed on China shore deploying 2000 M-1A2SEP TUSK MBTs, several thousands of LVTP7 and M-2 Bradley, M-6 Linebacker, thousands more MRAP with 300,000 troops backed by air support AH-64E, A-10C, blackhawks caught PLA by surprise. PLAAF deploys J-20 to take on F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F while J-10C and J-16 could serve as decoy for enemy fighters and as weapons platform to launch PL-12/17/21 at enemy fighters, helicopters guided by J-20, GCI and AWACS. 

To take out that many mobile ground vehicles, tanks, troops, you won't be using long range expensive hypersonic missiles. Engagement will be within visual range as multi-purpose air to ground missiles effective range around 11nm or less and fighter ground search radar with optronic FLIR pod works around 13nm or less. J-16 if the blue arrow missiles could be carried on multiple racks under pylons, it could easily carry 12x on 4 pylons to destroy 12 tanks. 2x PL-10e & 4x PL-12/15 could destroy 6x AH-64E, blackhawk. Also there's room for laser guided bombs or unguided cluster bombs to attack multiple enemy lightly armored & unarmored vehicles killing numbers of enemy troops on the ground.

The same goes to J-10C with focus on air to ground sorrties taking out enemy SAM/AAA protecting the invading army, destroying tanks, vehicles, troops within visual range. It costs less to lose a J-10C compared to J-20 due to enemy ground fire. J-10C is smaller and less area for enemy AAA to hit. US air force would send F-16C for air to ground attacking mobile targets while F-15C flying air cover because of same reason. You don't send J-20 or F-22 to attack enemy tanks at 11nm or less radius using blue arrows and bombs.

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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> I got banned by Deino for a month.
> ....




*And if you do not stop immediately with this off-topic BS like in your next post another ban will follow soon again.*

*Stop with these off topic warmongering posts. This is a thread on the J-10 and there won't be an invasion of China by US forces.*

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> *And if you do not stop immediately with this off-topic BS like in your next post another ban will follow soon again.*
> 
> *Stop with these off topic warmongering posts. This is a thread on the J-10 and there won't be an invasion of China by US forces.*



Excuse me, what off topic when I only answered a question posted by others on the reason of building more J-10C when there's J-20? This sounds more like your own personal prejudice against me. Are you going to give me warning for asking this question? 

Everyone please come and judge Deino action here. Seems like he doesn't understand what military warplane is about instead. Deino, you want to say J-10C is not about destroying air & ground targets? If you can't stick to military talk especially related to roles and purpose of J-10C in J-10 thread, going personal against someone you dislike then you shouldn't be admin and should go join LGBT forum.

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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Figaro

Pupu says there will be a huge change to the J-10 this year, also implying that it will no longer be a 4th generation fighter. Huge news for the J-10.

https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2634204-1-1.html

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## Figaro

Figaro said:


> Pupu says there will be a huge change to the J-10 this year, also implying that it will no longer be a 4th generation fighter. Huge news for the J-10.
> 
> https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2634204-1-1.html
> 
> View attachment 650266


Pupu has confirmed that the new J-10 upgrade coming out will *not* include TVC or VTOL capability (the latter I believe was only considered by fanboys). I really wonder what technologies besides the LO stealth additions will turn the J-10 into a 5th generation fighter ...

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## ozranger

Figaro said:


> Pupu has confirmed that the new J-10 upgrade coming out will *not* include TVC or VTOL capability (the latter I believe was only considered by fanboys). I really wonder what technologies besides the LO stealth additions will turn the J-10 into a 5th generation fighter ...



I remember I saw somewhere that someone proposed a design that is only for AA mission and only good for hit and run, with 2 MRAAMs (PL-15) and 2 SRAAMs (PL-10) as payloads in internal weapon bays. Maybe J-10 can be upgraded to that kind of thing and sold to developing countries as air assassins?


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## lcloo

The evolution of J10C to the J10NG (Next Generation) would have to have upgrade on
1) More powerful engine
2) Electronics specs on the level of J20 where space and power generation permit
3) LO stealth, probably including canted V tails
4) Concealed weapon stores
5) Probably larger fuselage to accommodate more fuel and thus larger combat range (eg. F/A-18 Hornet's evolution to larger Super Hornet).
6) Air intake changed from chin location to sides, so as to provide space for concealed weapon store as well as S shape air intake duct for better stealth. (refer nose air intake J8 to side air intake J8A as precedence).

(1), (2) and (3) above are almost a certainty except the canted V tails, (4), (5) and (6) are speculative (my 2 cents).

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## Deino

lcloo said:


> The evolution of J10C to the J10NG (Next Generation) would have to have upgrade on
> 1) More powerful engine
> 2) Electronics specs on the level of J20 where space and power generation permit
> 3) LO stealth, probably including canted V tails
> 4) Concealed weapon stores
> 5) Probably larger fuselage to accommodate more fuel and thus larger combat range (eg. F/A-18 Hornet's evolution to larger Super Hornet).
> 6) Air intake changed from chin location to sides, so as to provide space for concealed weapon store as well as S shape air intake duct for better stealth. (refer nose air intake J8 to side air intake J8A as precedence).
> 
> (1), (2) and (3) above are almost a certainty except the canted V tails, (4), (5) and (6) are speculative (my 2 cents).




Sounds good, but in the end more like a new aircraft than a new variant. If true they should call it J-14.

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## lcloo

Deino said:


> Sounds good, but in the end more like a new aircraft than a new variant. If true they should call it J-14.


Yes, just like JJ7 evolved to JL9/FTC-2000G, and Y8 to Y9. It won't surprise me if they give it a new designation of a new JXX, that is, if the changes is very significant.

If I remember correctly, the initial pre-production designation of Y9 was Y8F in display model found in an airshow, probably in Zhuhai many years ago.

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## LKJ86

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1283035773512671238

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## Safriz

LKJ86 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1283035773512671238


Chinese don't use English in their military? Do they?


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## GeHAC

Safriz said:


> Chinese don't use English in their military? Do they?


It‘s rumored that newer generation pilot in aviation school begin to adopt english jargon and some of the PLAAF combat unit use it.

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## Ali_Baba

LKJ86 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1283035773512671238



Nice. You can see from the display symbology how much the J10 and JF17 share in their DNA.


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## Figaro

lcloo said:


> The evolution of J10C to the J10NG (Next Generation) would have to have upgrade on
> 1) More powerful engine


A WS-10 variant different than the ones we've been seeing on current J-10Cs and J-20s?


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## 52051

According to a very creditable source, Pupu, from his weibo account he implied Chengdu now work on a 4-generation J-10.

I think it is quite possible, officially AVIC has FC-31 as their only medium weighted 4 gen fighter project, but Chengdu would not just give up that market without putting a fight, so there is a single engine 4 gen fighter project in the name of J-10 update (just to avoid resistance, kind like Tu-22 and Tu-22M).

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## lcloo

GeHAC said:


> It‘s rumored that newer generation pilot in aviation school begin to adopt english jargon and some of the PLAAF combat unit use it.


Probably English is a requirement for the pilots of the Blue force in Red vs Blue training to simulate real life encounters, also English is needed for communication with foreign pilots in multi-national exercises.

Communicating using English jargon during real combat against an English speaking foe would give away your next intended move. It should not be use in such scenario.

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## LKJ86

J-10C




















Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## kungfugymnast

lcloo said:


> The evolution of J10C to the J10NG (Next Generation) would have to have upgrade on
> 1) More powerful engine
> 2) Electronics specs on the level of J20 where space and power generation permit
> 3) LO stealth, probably including canted V tails
> 4) Concealed weapon stores
> 5) Probably larger fuselage to accommodate more fuel and thus larger combat range (eg. F/A-18 Hornet's evolution to larger Super Hornet).
> 6) Air intake changed from chin location to sides, so as to provide space for concealed weapon store as well as S shape air intake duct for better stealth. (refer nose air intake J8 to side air intake J8A as precedence).
> 
> (1), (2) and (3) above are almost a certainty except the canted V tails, (4), (5) and (6) are speculative (my 2 cents).



More powerful newer version WS-10 engine definitely. Apart from that, use of lightweight materials such as carbon fibre and RAM coating. Addition of conformal fuel tank CFT or enlarging fuel tank with humpback like Mig-29SMT maybe. TVC yes but VSTOL is totally not going to happen as it requires redesigning the entire fuselage.


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## PeacefulWar

kungfugymnast said:


> More powerful newer version WS-10 engine definitely. Apart from that, use of lightweight materials such as carbon fibre and RAM coating. Addition of conformal fuel tank CFT or enlarging fuel tank with humpback like Mig-29SMT maybe. TVC yes but VSTOL is totally not going to happen as it requires redesigning the entire fuselage.


All good but we will have a very critical issue then: cost!
The plane will be as expensive as a true 5G bird! 
There is no point for such jet fighter.

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## Figaro

kungfugymnast said:


> More powerful newer version WS-10 engine definitely. Apart from that, use of lightweight materials such as carbon fibre and RAM coating. Addition of conformal fuel tank CFT or enlarging fuel tank with humpback like Mig-29SMT maybe. TVC yes but VSTOL is totally not going to happen as it requires redesigning the entire fuselage.


Pupu confirmed that the new J-10 variant will *not* have TVC ... the TVC will first be deployed on the J-20B.

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## Deino

*Guys ... do not respond to a troll ... just report and go on! *

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## Beast

Deino said:


> *Guys ... do not respond to a troll ... just report and go on! *


Why is that post not delete or him get banned?

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## Deino

Beast said:


> Why is that post not delete or him get banned?




it is deleted as per negative rating! Or do I miss anything?

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## Ultima Thule

Deino said:


> it is deleted as per negative rating! Or do I miss anything?


its still there sir

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## Deino

Ultima Thule said:


> its still there sir




And now?


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## Figaro

Deino said:


> And now?


It is no longer there ... thank you for taking care of him

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## Ultima Thule

Deino said:


> And now?


Thank you sir


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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S





Via 央广军事 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH













Via @海军新闻 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-10A and J-10S
> View attachment 651519
> 
> Via 央广军事 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo




Any idea, where this is?

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## obj 705A

I have no idea whether this video was shared here before or not but any way I saw it on the Russia defence forum shared by a member (Cyberspec)

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## Ultima Thule

obj 705A said:


> I have no idea whether this video was shared here before or not but any way I saw it on the Russia defence forum shared by a member (Cyberspec)


Already posted by some one 2 page ago but duration is much shorter


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## obj 705A

Figaro said:


> Pupu says there will be a huge change to the J-10 this year, also implying that it will no longer be a 4th generation fighter. Huge news for the J-10.
> 
> https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2634204-1-1.html
> 
> View attachment 650266





lcloo said:


> The evolution of J10C to the J10NG (Next Generation) would have to have upgrade on
> 1) More powerful engine
> 2) Electronics specs on the level of J20 where space and power generation permit
> 3) LO stealth, probably including canted V tails
> 4) Concealed weapon stores
> 5) Probably larger fuselage to accommodate more fuel and thus larger combat range (eg. F/A-18 Hornet's evolution to larger Super Hornet).
> 6) Air intake changed from chin location to sides, so as to provide space for concealed weapon store as well as S shape air intake duct for better stealth. (refer nose air intake J8 to side air intake J8A as precedence).
> 
> (1), (2) and (3) above are almost a certainty except the canted V tails, (4), (5) and (6) are speculative (my 2 cents).


regarding this Pupu, what is his track record? did he ever get anything wrong or was he always right? 

I'm saying that because personaly I highly doubt there would be a single engined 5th gen fighter, a 5th gen J-10 will be much heavier than the latest J-10, and will weigh as much as the F-35, I didn't find any reliable source about the weight of J-31 however from wikipedia the F-35 actually weighs as much as a J-31! in other words a 5th gen J-10 will weigh the same as a J-31 but it will have one big engine instead of two smaller ones, there is no point in having two fighters in the same weight class, also if this alleged single engined 5th gen fighter is supposed to be some competition to J-31, I believe the PLAAF will choose J-31 over 5th gen J-10, just my hunch. 

that is why personaly I believe if there is any new variant of the J-10 it will not be a brand new 5th gen fighter, instead a new J-10 will just use some of the electronics used by the J-20 as a stop gap because perhaps J-20 production is still not enough.

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## Figaro

obj 705A said:


> regarding this Pupu, what is his track record? did he ever get anything wrong or was he always right?


His track record is *excellent*. I don't think anyone has a perfect track record but his definitely comes close.


obj 705A said:


> I'm saying that because personaly I highly doubt there would be a single engined 5th gen fighter, a 5th gen J-10 will be much heavier than the latest J-10, and will weigh as much as the F-35, I didn't find any reliable source about the weight of J-31 however from wikipedia the F-35 actually weighs as much as a J-31! in other words a 5th gen J-10 will weigh the same as a J-31 but it will have one big engine instead of two smaller ones, there is no point in having two fighters in the same weight class, also if this alleged single engined 5th gen fighter is supposed to be some competition to J-31, I believe the PLAAF will choose J-31 over 5th gen J-10, just my hunch.
> 
> that is why personaly I believe if there is any new variant of the J-10 it will not be a brand new 5th gen fighter, instead a new J-10 will just use some of the electronics used by the J-20 as a stop gap because perhaps J-20 production is still not enough.


The F-35 is a single engined 5th generation fighter the last time I checked . Pupu was definitely not talking about a brand new single engined stealth fighter based on the J-10 ... he stated that the J-10 was going to receive major upgrades that would place it into the 5th generation category. Likely, it will come with some LO features such as stealthy exhaust nozzles and more powerful avionics/ew capabilities. But nevertheless a major upgrade (not a new fighter) as he states.

I personally found it a bit surprising the J-10 was going to receive a very large upgrade considering most of CAC is now focusing on the J-20. But I guess there is still a large team behind it and the PLAAF still wants the J-10, so much so once the WS-15 becomes operational within a few years, the J-10 will likely be equipped with it.

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## lcloo

it is indeed up to debate whether the J10NG will be entering PLAAF service or not as naval J35 is almost a certainty to have maiden flight next year.

It will depend on cost of J10NG and the decommission rates of early generation fighters, falling into a dire situation where there is not enough new jets to replace old ones like in a certain South Asian country is not an option.

The non-stealth J7/J8/Flankers/J10 have limited future if your expected enemies are going to deploy 5th gen stealth jets, thus these older gen jets need to be replaced in a pace depending on intensity of external threat which currently is getting hotter as time pass.

If J10C and J16 cannot fight off a J20, and if the score is like 10 losses to nil in BVR fight, continuing production of J10C and J16 is less attractive. Thus a J10NG with improved stealth is logical, and suit the constrains of annual military budget.

If J35 can be produced fast enough to replace all older gen jets and stay within the limit of military budget, then J10NG's chance of serving PLAAF may be very slim.

There is also a question whether PLAAF will adopt the navy's J35 or choose their own variant. And what is the time line for the air force's variant to enter mass production?


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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S














































Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Ultima Thule

lcloo said:


> it is indeed up to debate whether the J10NG will be entering PLAAF service or not as naval J35 is almost a certainty to have maiden flight next year.
> 
> It will depend on cost of J10NG and the decommission rates of early generation fighters, falling into a dire situation where there is not enough new jets to replace old ones like in a certain South Asian country is not an option.
> 
> The non-stealth J7/J8/Flankers/J10 have limited future if your expected enemies are going to deploy 5th gen stealth jets, thus these older gen jets need to be replaced in a pace depending on intensity of external threat which currently is getting hotter as time pass.
> 
> If J10C and J16 cannot fight off a J20, and if the score is like 10 losses to nil in BVR fight, continuing production of J10C and J16 is less attractive. Thus a J10NG with improved stealth is logical, and suit the constrains of annual military budget.
> 
> If J35 can be produced fast enough to replace all older gen jets and stay within the limit of military budget, then J10NG's chance of serving PLAAF may be very slim.
> 
> There is also a question whether PLAAF will adopt the navy's J35 or choose their own variant. And what is the time line for the air force's variant to enter mass production?


What is J10NG never heard any version of J10 named J10NG


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## lcloo

It is just my term for Next Generation, just like Grippen NG or Mirage III NG, normally used for undesignated next generation project for many previous aircraft in the past.


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## LKJ86

lcloo said:


> It is just my term for Next Generation, just like Grippen NG or Mirage III NG, normally used for undesignated next generation project for many previous aircraft in the past.


Yep, J-20 also can be called a dual-engine version of J-10.

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## kungfugymnast

lcloo said:


> It is just my term for Next Generation, just like Grippen NG or Mirage III NG, normally used for undesignated next generation project for many previous aircraft in the past.



There's no Mirage III NG, it was replaced by Mirage F1 & later Mirage 2000 then Rafale. 

Gripen is just bragging big common fighter meant for Sweeden air defence roles. Gripen lacks the combat radius for offensive sorties, having just medium range radar with maximum track range less than AIM-120C7 maximum effective range and not that good for air to ground role. It is outclassed by F-16C block 52. 

The J-10C roles will be more on air to ground taking out mobile targets that required below 15nm engagement in seek & destroy. There's no need for NG J-10C which would be filled by J-20 or newer stealth fighter bomber. The same goes to J-16 that would take air to ground roles mostly. 

In futurei if there's any war with countries that have advanced air force, J-10C, J-16, J-15 only air to air roles are to provide weapon platform 2nd wave attacks behind all the stealth fighters and to serve as decoy.


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## Figaro

lcloo said:


> it is indeed up to debate whether the J10NG will be entering PLAAF service or not as naval J35 is almost a certainty to have maiden flight next year.
> 
> It will depend on cost of J10NG and the decommission rates of early generation fighters, falling into a dire situation where there is not enough new jets to replace old ones like in a certain South Asian country is not an option.
> 
> The non-stealth J7/J8/Flankers/J10 have limited future if your expected enemies are going to deploy 5th gen stealth jets, thus these older gen jets need to be replaced in a pace depending on intensity of external threat which currently is getting hotter as time pass.
> 
> If J10C and J16 cannot fight off a J20, and if the score is like 10 losses to nil in BVR fight, continuing production of J10C and J16 is less attractive. Thus a J10NG with improved stealth is logical, and suit the constrains of annual military budget.
> 
> If J35 can be produced fast enough to replace all older gen jets and stay within the limit of military budget, then J10NG's chance of serving PLAAF may be very slim.
> 
> There is also a question whether PLAAF will adopt the navy's J35 or choose their own variant. And what is the time line for the air force's variant to enter mass production?


Do we know the PLA has already accepted the J-35? Just because it is making its maiden flight next year does not mean it will become operational (just like in the maiden flight of the J-35). Did SAC win the contract tender for the next gen carrier fighter? IMO it could be another FC-31 all over again.


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## lcloo

Figaro said:


> Do we know the PLA has already accepted the J-35? Just because it is making its maiden flight next year does not mean it will become operational (just like in the maiden flight of the J-35). Did SAC win the contract tender for the next gen carrier fighter? IMO it could be another FC-31 all over again.


Implication from internet news is that PLA Navy Aviation is the one that will induct J35 for air craft carrier operation. There is not indication that PLAAF has choose J35, at least not yet.


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## Figaro

lcloo said:


> Implication from internet news is that PLA Navy Aviation is the one that will induct J35 for air craft carrier operation. There is not indication that PLAAF has choose J35, at least not yet.


So the navalized J-20 lost against the J-35?


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## lcloo

Figaro said:


> So the navalized J-20 lost against the J-35?


Not sure about whether there is competition between navalised J20 and J31/35. There is no clear information. However, it somehow remind me of the YF-16 vs YF-17 scenario. USAF chose YF-16 while USN went for modified version of YF-17 which evolved into F/A-18.

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## LKJ86

Figaro said:


> So the navalized J-20 lost against the J-35?


The winner can't take all.

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## Tiqiu



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## Figaro

Tiqiu said:


> View attachment 653304


We need to see the J-10C WS-10X serial numbers!!! We already know they're operational but we only have one picture ... with no number.


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## LKJ86

J-10A










Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## S10

LKJ86 said:


> J-10A
> View attachment 653429
> View attachment 653430
> View attachment 653431
> 
> Via @空军新闻 from Weixin


This guy has logged over 5,200 flight hours and has reached maximum age limit (48) for combat pilots in China. He actually stayed on longer than normal, as most pilots retire around 45 years old.

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## LKJ86

J-10S






















Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## kungfugymnast

Figaro said:


> So the navalized J-20 lost against the J-35?



J-20 wings aren't suited for carrier take off and landing. Carrier based fighter that has fixed wing will be less swept with aerodynamic designed for low speed stability and maneuverability. If you notice, modern day carrier fighters are slower but have good low speed maneuverability. F-35, Rafale, F/A-18E/F are best examples that they can't fly anywhere near Mach 2. Unless it's a swing wing fighter (prone to higher maintenance) or the navy willing to accept risky higher speed landing. 

The FC-31 took design cue from F-35 which is why it can't reach Mach 2 top speed. Adding arrestor hook and strengthened landing gears on FC-31 could land on carrier because its design suited for low speed stability and maneuverability. 

However, many hope J-35 is larger fighter over 60ft with side bay for dogfight capability and having the needed combat radius for engaging enemy fighters, bombers, ships far before they get into missile range.



S10 said:


> This guy has logged over 5,200 flight hours and has reached maximum age limit (48) for combat pilots in China. He actually stayed on longer than normal, as most pilots retire around 45 years old.



It is based on ranks and physical condition. Officer level max age 52 years old while generals that don't have to fly or go to warzone could retire at higher age 60 max. Non-officer maximum 45. As long as you serve more than 20 years from the year you joined active service, you can choose to retire and get retirement benefits or continue serving until max permitted age limit.


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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH

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## Figaro

New production J-10 with Taihang

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## LKJ86

J-10C





Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10SH

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## LKJ86

J-10B




Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C and J-10S


































Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## capricorn5192

Can someone tell me what aesa radar is the J-10C is using? i can't seem to find it on the internet


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## Akasa

capricorn5192 said:


> Can someone tell me what aesa radar is the J-10C is using? i can't seem to find it on the internet



The name is unknown but it's developed by NRIET and has 1152 transmit/receive modules, supposedly a downsized variant of the radar on the J-20.

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## capricorn5192

Akasa said:


> The name is unknown but it's developed by NRIET and has 1152 transmit/receive modules, supposedly a downsized variant of the radar on the J-20.
> 
> View attachment 658984
> 
> View attachment 658985
> 
> View attachment 658986
> 
> View attachment 658987
> 
> View attachment 658988


Thankyou


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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C and J-10S
> View attachment 658473
> View attachment 658474
> View attachment 658475
> View attachment 658476
> View attachment 658477
> View attachment 658478
> View attachment 658479
> View attachment 658480
> View attachment 658481
> View attachment 658482
> View attachment 658483
> 
> Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10SH







Via @东海舰队发布 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10AH




Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via @中部战区发布 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10S




Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 660030
> 
> Via @中部战区发布 from Weibo



Good, the J-10C comes with 8 underwing pylons now. Wonder if the 2 large innermost pylons could carry medium or long range air to air missiles?


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Good, the J-10C comes with 8 underwing pylons now. Wonder if the 2 large innermost pylons could carry medium or long range air to air missiles?




No it does not - and again would you please do your homeworks before posting once again "strange claims" - these are simply the well known twin-launchers for the PL-12 and PL-15.

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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH

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## LKJ86

J-10C





Via @中部战区发布 from Weibo

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> No it does not - and again would you please do your homeworks before posting once again "strange claims" - these are simply the well known twin-launchers for the PL-12 and PL-15.
> 
> View attachment 660193



This photo shows 6x air to air missiles being carried. You didn't answer, can the 2 inner large pylons carry air to air missiles?


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## siegecrossbow

kungfugymnast said:


> This photo shows 6x air to air missiles being carried. You didn't answer, can the 2 inner large pylons carry air to air missiles?



Are you talking about hard points on the belly? If so no. Those aren’t wired to fire control.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> This photo shows 6x air to air missiles being carried. You didn't answer, can the 2 inner large pylons carry air to air missiles?




Yes it shows, but your original question was concerning "*8 underwing pylons now*", which is wrong!



kungfugymnast said:


> Good, the J-10C comes with 8 underwing pylons now. Wonder if the 2 large innermost pylons could carry medium or long range air to air missiles?



As for the inner wing pylon, I actually don't know. At least I haven't seen any image.

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## kungfugymnast

siegecrossbow said:


> Are you talking about hard points on the belly? If so no. Those aren’t wired to fire control.



Definitely not the belly centreline pylon, everyone knows most fighters centreline pylon only for stores especially fuel tank, ecm pod, FLIR pod or bomb only. 

I'm referring to the 2 inner wing large pylons because all these while Russia & China fighters never had dual racks for 2 air to air missiles per pylon. That's why I asked whether inner most large pylon on J-10C could carry air to air missiles. Mig-29/35 and flankers, all underwing pylons could carry air to air missiles. 

US F-16C innermost under wing 2x pylons can't carry air to air missiles but the middle underwing pylons could carry twin rack for 2x AMRAAMs each.


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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Yes it shows, but your original question was concerning "*8 underwing pylons now*", which is wrong!
> 
> As for the inner wing pylon, I actually don't know. At least I haven't seen any image.



Although I'm with the military but I'm not with PLAAF and you expect me to know what's on the new J-10C based on the way you replied? Because you said the old J-10A could carry 6x air to air missiles and aa far as I know, Russian and China fighters don't come with twin racks for air to air missiles all these while until I saw twin rack on J-10C on your posted photo. That's why I asked the inner rack.

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## LKJ86

J-10C













Via www.plapic.com.cn

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## LKJ86

J-10S
















Via www.plapic.com.cn

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## Clairvoyant

Deino said:


> No it does not - and again would you please do your homeworks before posting once again "strange claims" - these are simply the well known twin-launchers for the PL-12 and PL-15.
> 
> View attachment 660193



@Deino is there any picture available where PL.15's are being carried on dual launchers. Asking because have always seen them carried as a single missile per pylon.


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## kungfugymnast

Clairvoyant said:


> @Deino is there any picture available where PL.15's are being carried on dual launchers. Asking because have always seen them carried as a single missile per pylon.



What's the weight of PL-15? As far as I know, dual rack for air to air missiles only limited to light weight missiles. AIM-120B/C5-7 are light at less than 350lb. AIM-7M is heavier and never carried on dual racks.


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## Deino

Clairvoyant said:


> @Deino is there any picture available where PL.15's are being carried on dual launchers. Asking because have always seen them carried as a single missile per pylon.




Yes we have. There are not many, but we have for sure a few showing two pl-15s on twin launcher on the J-10C

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## lcloo

Old photo of J10B. Weapon and fuel load configuration for BVR interception against target at long range.

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## kungfugymnast

lcloo said:


> Old photo of J10B. Weapon and fuel load configuration for BVR interception against target at long range.
> 
> View attachment 661536



These are training variant PL-12? I refer google photos that PL-15 forward fins are shaped like AIM-120C tail fin trapezoidal shape. While PL-12 forward fins has AIM-120C style forward fins but larger and sharper.


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## Deino

Deino said:


> Yes we have. There are not many, but we have for sure a few showing two pl-15s on twin launcher on the J-10C

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## LKJ86

J-10AH




















Via @东部战区 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10S

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## LKJ86

J-10B




Via @中部战区发布 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 661904
> 
> Via @空军在线 from Weibo



Seems to be the same aircraft ...

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## LKJ86

J-10C



















Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10S

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 661941
> View attachment 661942
> View attachment 661943
> View attachment 661944
> View attachment 661945
> View attachment 661946
> 
> Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin

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## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


> J-10AH
> View attachment 661680
> View attachment 661681
> View attachment 661682
> View attachment 661683
> View attachment 661684
> View attachment 661686
> 
> Via @东部战区 from Weixin



Is the J-10A top speed still at Mach 2.2 as per all military wiki? If yes, it's faster because of its air intake straight flow for max air pass?

Only the J-10C slower at Mach 1.8 because of revised wing and air inlet design along with its WS-10 engine made for low speed maneuverability?


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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 661941
> View attachment 661942
> View attachment 661943
> View attachment 661944
> View attachment 661945
> View attachment 661946
> 
> Via @央视军事报道 from Weixin




Any idea, where this is?


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## Armchair

kungfugymnast said:


> Is the J-10A top speed still at Mach 2.2 as per all military wiki? If yes, it's faster because of its air intake straight flow for max air pass?
> 
> Only the J-10C slower at Mach 1.8 because of revised wing and air inlet design along with its WS-10 engine made for low speed maneuverability?



Very likely not, as the DSI intakes limit top speed a bit.


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## LKJ86

J-10A







Via @南部空军 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10B




Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH














Via @解放军报 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> J-10AH and J-10SH
> View attachment 663476
> View attachment 663477
> View attachment 663478
> View attachment 663479
> 
> Via @解放军报 from Weibo


J-10SH
















Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## JSCh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1298485135289901062

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> J-10SH
> View attachment 663545
> View attachment 663546
> View attachment 663547
> View attachment 663548
> View attachment 663549
> 
> Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C and J-10S

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## LKJ86



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## j20blackdragon

*J10C0262*

The numbers are so clear, no one can dispute this one.

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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via @空军在线 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10B and J-10S






















Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C and J-10S
> View attachment 664411
> View attachment 664412
> View attachment 664413
> View attachment 664414
> View attachment 664416
> View attachment 664417
> View attachment 664418
> View attachment 664419





LKJ86 said:


> J-10B and J-10S
> View attachment 667163
> View attachment 667164
> View attachment 667165
> View attachment 667166
> View attachment 667167
> View attachment 667168
> View attachment 667169
> 
> Via @空军新闻 from Weixin


J-10B and J-10C

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## LKJ86

J-10C equipped with WS-10




Via @机外停车Rabbit from Weibo

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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C equipped with WS-10
> View attachment 668329
> 
> Via @机外停车Rabbit from Weibo


Production WS-10 J-10

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## LKJ86

J-10B





Via @兵器知识山水 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## kungfugymnast

Figaro said:


> Production WS-10 J-10



The J-10C will be built mainly for economic patrol, consumes less fuel per second compared to J-11B, J-16, J-20, ideal for training and expendable in close air support especially hunting hidden SAMs protecting enemy tanks and troops that required visual range engagement using multi-purpose blue arrow missiles. 

The smaller maneuverable J-10C is harder to hit for enemy AAA fire compared to large more expensive J-16. During Iraq Desert Storm, USAF lost 2x or 4x F-15E to heavy enemy ground fire (AAA & SAM) during heavy air to ground sorties in heavily defended oil refineries & storages but none of the F-16C were shot down. Ever since, F-16C flown all air to ground search and destroy ground defences, close air support while F-15E sent for bombardment and destroying ground targets that don't shoot back 
or stay out of >5Nm radius on ground threats mostly.

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## LKJ86

J-10B




Via @西部空天 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86



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## Baloch Pakistani

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 674799
> View attachment 674800
> View attachment 674801
> View attachment 674804
> View attachment 674805
> View attachment 674806
> View attachment 674807


How many BVR missiles j10 can carry without using dual rails? I've never seen it carrying more than two BVR's and two WVR missiles. What's max air superiority load of J10C? With and without dual rails.

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## LKJ86

Baloch Pakistani said:


> How many BVR missiles j10 can carry without using dual rails? I've never seen it carrying more than two BVR's and two WVR missiles. What's max air superiority load of J10C? With and without dual rails.


There are some differences between what J-10C can carry and what PLAAF needs J-10C to carry.

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 674796
> View attachment 674798
> View attachment 674797

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## kungfugymnast

LKJ86 said:


> There are some differences between what J-10C can carry and what PLAAF needs J-10C to carry.



So what is your answer to @Baloch Pakistani then? Without dual rail rack, can the J-10C carries more than 4x air to air missiles with the innermost underwing 3rd pylon? The dual rack seems flimsy and that's probably why he asked. So without the dual rack, outer most pylons 2x PL-10E, mid pylons 2x PL-15. Innermost large pylons, can they carry 2x PL-15? 可不可以?


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## Baloch Pakistani

kungfugymnast said:


> So what is your answer to @Baloch Pakistani then? Without dual rail rack, can the J-10C carries more than 4x air to air missiles with the innermost underwing 3rd pylon? The dual rack seems flimsy and that's probably why he asked. So without the dual rack, outer most pylons 2x PL-10E, mid pylons 2x PL-15. Innermost large pylons, can they carry 2x PL-15? 可不可以?


As far as i know J10 can only carry 2 BVR and 2 WVR missiles without dual rails. Inner most pylons and fuselage pylons cannot carry BVR's. They can carry fuel tanks or pods only. This air superiority load is unimpressive. This load equals the much smaller jf17 which can also carry only 2 bvr and 2 wvr missile (unimpressive also). Dual rails on jf17 and j10 are not made for pulling high G's and that's why we never see Jf17 or J10 flying with these.

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## Daniel808

kungfugymnast said:


> So what is your answer to @Baloch Pakistani then? Without dual rail rack, can the J-10C carries more than 4x air to air missiles with the innermost underwing 3rd pylon? The dual rack seems flimsy and that's probably why he asked. So without the dual rack, outer most pylons 2x PL-10E, mid pylons 2x PL-15. Innermost large pylons, can they carry 2x PL-15? 可不可以?



Of course they can, the 3rd underwing pylon can carry BVRAAM.
And they can hold up to 12 AAM with dual racks.

Total they have 10 pylon (8 underwing, 1 underbelly, and 1 other near engine intake)
I don't know about underbelly pylon and near engine intake pylon, can carry AAM too or not. Mostly they carry External Tank and Laser Pod/ Electronic Jamming Pods.

Usually they carry 3 External Tanks in Long Distance Combat Mission.










Baloch Pakistani said:


> As far as i know J10 can only carry 2 BVR and 2 WVR missiles without dual rails. Inner most pylons and fuselage pylons cannot carry BVR's. They can carry fuel tanks or pods only. This air superiority load is unimpressive. This load equals the much smaller jf17 which can also carry only 2 bvr and 2 wvr missile (unimpressive also). Dual rails on jf17 and j10 are not made for pulling high G's and that's why we never see Jf17 or J10 flying with these.

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## kungfugymnast

Baloch Pakistani said:


> As far as i know J10 can only carry 2 BVR and 2 WVR missiles without dual rails. Inner most pylons and fuselage pylons cannot carry BVR's. They can carry fuel tanks or pods only. This air superiority load is unimpressive. This load equals the much smaller jf17 which can also carry only 2 bvr and 2 wvr missile (unimpressive also). Dual rails on jf17 and j10 are not made for pulling high G's and that's why we never see Jf17 or J10 flying with these.



Present day conventional fighters are required to carry at least 8x air to air missiles. 4x air to air missiles for almost 50ft long fighter is totally ridiculous. If a squadron of J-10C up against Block 60 or newer F-16E/F/V, the F-16 could launch 2x AIM-120C7 at every J-10C at a time. Meanwhile J-10C would have to spend wisely launching 1x PL-12/15 at every F-16 at a time. 2x missiles after 1 aircraft hit success is always higher than 1 where first missile successfully spoofed, there's 2nd missile going after the J-10C.

Based on the poor flimsy design of the dual rack on J-10C, 1 could tell the rack is useless unlike US version twin rack on F-16. Wonder why China bothers to build this J-10C that can't carry 8 air to air missiles in the first place. Even Rafale and EF2000 could carry 10 air to air missiles. Thanks for your information 🤠


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## kungfugymnast

Daniel808 said:


> Of course they can, the 3rd underwing pylon can carry BVRAAM.
> And they can hold up to 12 AAM with dual racks.
> 
> Total they have 10 pylon (8 underwing, 1 underbelly, and 1 other near engine intake)
> I don't know about underbelly pylon and near engine intake pylon, can carry AAM too or not. Mostly they carry External Tank and Laser Pod/ Electronic Jamming Pods.
> 
> Usually they carry 3 External Tanks in Long Distance Combat Mission.
> 
> View attachment 675146



There is no pylon near fuselage other than centerline pylon reserves for small 150 gallon fuel tank, ECM or targeting pod. The way you explained sounds not convincing because you've never seen it carrying dual rack nor air to air missiles on innermost underwing pylons


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> There is no pylon near fuselage other than centerline pylon reserves for small 150 gallon fuel tank, ECM or targeting pod. The way you explained sounds not convincing because you've never seen it carrying dual rack nor air to air missiles on innermost underwing pylons




You are wrong, there are altogether 4 small pylons - two under the air intake and two on the rear fuselage.

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## Baloch Pakistani

Daniel808 said:


> Of course they can, the 3rd underwing pylon can carry BVRAAM.
> And they can hold up to 12 AAM with dual racks.
> 
> Total they have 10 pylon (8 underwing, 1 underbelly, and 1 other near engine intake)
> I don't know about underbelly pylon and near engine intake pylon, can carry AAM too or not. Mostly they carry External Tank and Laser Pod/ Electronic Jamming Pods.
> 
> Usually they carry 3 External Tanks in Long Distance Combat Mission.
> 
> View attachment 675146


These 4 bvr seems to be attached to the dual rails. Can you please show us any picture of J10 with its full air superiority load? I have suspicions.

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## LKJ86

Baloch Pakistani said:


> As far as i know J10 can only carry 2 BVR and 2 WVR missiles without dual rails. Inner most pylons and fuselage pylons cannot carry BVR's. They can carry fuel tanks or pods only.


If PAF requires that J-10C's Inner most pylons and fuselage pylon should carry BVR AAMs, do you think that CAC would face technology limitations?

Analogously, USAF's F-16 doesn't have CFT.

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> You are wrong, there are altogether 4 small pylons - two under the air intake and two on the rear fuselage.
> 
> View attachment 675196



Those 4 small pylons could only carry small bombs ordnance, not air to air missiles. Pylon for air to air missiles required longer rail with fast release especially for launching short range IR guided missiles.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Those 4 small pylons could only carry small bombs ordnance, not air to air missiles. Pylon for air to air missiles required longer rail with fast release especially for launching short range IR guided missiles.




You are funny!

I and several know this since years and we also know since years that only the two outmost pylons are capable to use AAMs. At least in operational use I know not a single image showing an AAM mounted on the inner pylon know and the one, but You were saying *"There is no pylon near fuselage other than centerline pylon reserves for small 150 gallon fuel tank, ECM or targeting pod" *and that is wrong. 

That these smaller ones cannot hold AAMs is also well known since years and was never in question.

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> You are funny!
> 
> I and several know this since years and we also know since years that only the two outmost pylons are capable to use AAMs. At least in operational use I know not a single image showing an AAM mounted on the inner pylon know and the one, but You were saying *"There is no pylon near fuselage other than centerline pylon reserves for small 150 gallon fuel tank, ECM or targeting pod" *and that is wrong.
> 
> That these smaller ones cannot hold AAMs is also well known since years and was never in question.



Conclusion is, the J-10C is made for ground attack role more than air to air. Its payload configuration is more towards air to ground ordnance + external fuel tanks for increasing combat radius. The J-10C is for home defense providing close air support roles aiming at taking out enemy mobile air defenses, tanks and vehicles in mind


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Conclusion is, the J-10C is made for ground attack role more than air to air. Its payload configuration is more towards air to ground ordnance + external fuel tanks for increasing combat radius. The J-10C is for home defense providing close air support roles aiming at taking out enemy mobile air defenses, tanks and vehicles in mind




No it is not, otherwise You would see much more often J-10s loaded with air to ground ordnance. IMO the J-10 is a decent multirole fighter with surely a limited weapons load given by the number of AAMs seen, but it does not need to have ... for more - more AAMs and more range - there is always the J-11 and also you have to keep in mind for what the J-10 was originally developed: To replace the J-7-series, which carried even less.

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## UKBengali

Deino said:


> No it is not, otherwise You would see much more often J-10s loaded with air to ground ordnance. IMO the J-10 is a decent multirole fighter with surely a limited weapons load given by the number of AAMs seen, but it does not need to have ... for more - more AAMs and more range - there is always the J-11 and also you have to keep in mind for what the J-10 was originally developed: To replace the J-7-series, which carried even less.




I also think like @LKJ86 that should another country want to buy J-10C then it could be configured to be able to carry 8 or even more air-to-air missiles. The modifications should be minor as there are 11 hard-points already on the J-10C.

You are right that China itself sees no need as it has the J-11-series fighters that can carry much more air-to-air missiles.


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## lcloo

If 4 J10s can shoot down half a squadron of enemy jets, why would it need more missiles?

No squadron leader would want to fight on if he lost 8 of his pilots in a single battle.

This is not WW2 Battle of England. Today's air battles are decided by electronics and tactical moves, carrying a dozen missiles does not mean one has an upper hand.

Check up the latest air battle in 21st century, it was between Pakistan and India this February. Did they fired dozens and dozens of missiles at each other?

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## UKBengali

lcloo said:


> If 4 J10s can shoot down half a squadron of enemy jets, why would it need more missiles?
> 
> No squadron leader would want to fight on if he lost 8 of his pilots in a single battle.
> 
> This is not WW2 Battle of England. Today's air battles are decided by electronics and tactical moves, carrying a dozen missiles does not mean one has an upper hand.
> 
> Check up the latest air battle in 21st century, it was between Pakistan and India this February. Did they fired dozens and dozens of missiles at each other?



There is a flaw in that as one missile is unlikely to kill one jet.

More likely you will need 2 and that is why BVR missiles are usually
"ripple fired" in salvos of 2.

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## lcloo

UKBengali said:


> There is a flaw in that as one missile is unlikely to kill one jet.
> 
> More likely you will need 2 and that is why BVR missiles are usually
> "ripple fired" in salvos of 2.


The cold truth is that J10A/B/C's inner "fuel tank only" inner wing pylon has been wired for weapons and electronic pods, and there are photos to support this. It is just that they do not release many photo as normal training sortie has no requirement for armed to the teeth weapon configuration, and China is not in war time operational deployment like US and NATO.

Chinese normally do not do as the West do. In the West, the aircraft manufacturer will show off the best of what they can offer, sometimes even over-stated, in order to compete with each other to sell their aircraft and weapons, in a dog eat dog world. Chinese normally chose not to disclose their full potential as the main customer is domestic. They don't have to do hard sale.

Thus with-out the dual rack pylon, a J10 can carry up to 4 BVRAAM, or 6 if dual rack is used. For 4 J10, that is 16 to 24 BVR missiles. More than enough to kill a full squadron of 16 aircraft as normal kill rates of modern missiles is around 80% or more if the targets are in the kill zone.

Chinese BVRAAM has range beyond 250km, with latest PL-20 and PL-21 said to have range of >350KM and >400KM, though it is unclear what is the kill zone range.

I suspect even the outer most pylon normally fitted with WVRAAM can accommodate BVRAAM, but it is unwise to do so as with-out WVRAAM, one is very likely to lost in a dogfight with gun only.

Also, saying a dual rack is flimsy is just a personal opinion based on shape of the rack with-out actual fact on the material used. You cannot use a household rack or office rack to compare with a rack made of military grade reinforced metal alloy. (example commercial grade aluminium vs aircraft grade aluminium). Also the fact that flight phase of before and during launching of BVRAAM rarely involved vigorous high G regime.

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## UKBengali

lcloo said:


> The cold truth is that J10A/B/C's inner "fuel tank only" inner wing pylon has been wired for weapons and electronic pods, and there are photos to support this. It is just that they do not release many photo as normal training sortie has no requirement for armed to the teeth weapon configuration, and China is not in war time operational deployment like US and NATO.
> 
> Chinese normally do not do as the West do. In the West, the aircraft manufacturer will show off the best of what they can offer, sometimes even over-stated, in order to compete with each other to sell their aircraft and weapons, in a dog eat dog world. Chinese normally chose not to disclose their full potential as the main customer is domestic. They don't have to do hard sale.
> 
> Thus with-out the dual rack pylon, a J10 can carry up to 4 BVRAAM, or 6 if dual rack is used. For 4 J10, that is 16 to 24 BVR missiles. More than enough to kill a full squadron of 16 aircraft as normal kill rates of modern missiles is around 80% or more if the targets are in the kill zone.
> 
> Chinese BVRAAM has range beyond 250km, with latest PL-20 and PL-21 said to have range of >350KM and >400KM, though it is unclear what is the kill zone range.
> 
> I suspect even the outer most pylon normally fitted with WVRAAM can accommodate BVRAAM, but it is unwise to do so as with-out WVRAAM, one is very likely to lost in a dogfight with gun only.
> 
> Also, saying a dual rack is flimsy is just a personal opinion based on shape of the rack with-out actual fact on the material used. You cannot use a household rack or office rack to compare with a rack made of military grade reinforced metal alloy. (example commercial grade aluminium vs aircraft grade aluminium). Also the fact that flight phase of before and during launching of BVRAAM rarely involved vigorous high G regime.



That is an interesting theory but I am not quite convinced.

For once, since 2019 China has been trying to sell the J-10C to other countries and so it gives them an incentive to show off the full missile carrying capability of the J-10C.

Also I have been googling shots of the J-11B and while I have not found a single shot of any J-11B carrying more than 4 AAMs, I have seen a pair where one was carrying two BVRAAMs in-between the engines and another was carrying two under the inner wing pylons.

It is quite possible that the J-10C can only carry only 4 missiles and so far China has felt little need to wire any more than 4 of the 11 hard-points to carry missiles. Strange if that is the case as you never know, especially over Taiwan but there you go. J-10Cs cannot always rely on J-11Bs being around to help if they are facing new Taiwanese F-16Vs that that may be able to carry up to 16 AIM-120D AMRAAMs.

PS - I have no idea where you got the 80% kill rate of modern BVR missiles from.
AMRAAM has a 46% kill rate and that is against 3rd rate fighters and the US had all the advantage of AWACs etc. Let us be more conservative and assume 50% even with missiles with the calibre of PL-15. You cannot always wait till you are in the "no escape zone" before firing as the other guy may "ripple fire" at you and hope to kill you first with multiple shots.


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## serenity

Baloch Pakistani said:


> These 4 bvr seems to be attached to the dual rails. Can you please show us any picture of J10 with its full air superiority load? I have suspicions.



I think there is some mix of information here so far.

J-10 has always been known by the fans as only equipping missiles on the two outer pylons like Deino said. The maximum PL-12 or PL-15 missile carriage by each J-10 is 4. Most wing end pylon so far has never been seen with medium range missile so only for short range due to weight most likely. Maybe they can carry PL-12 but at least it's never photographed.

Middle wing pylon can carry dual missiles and the drop in performance is not as much as you suggested. If mission require as many PL-15 as possible, dual missile is fine and performance at medium range is okay because very close range kind of turning is not necessary in medium range launch until further into merge.

Rafale is capable of carrying 8 medium range and Typhoon carries about the same for recommended air superiority mission. Typhoon's maximum air superiority mission is 6 medium range and 2 short range with fuel tanks. Rafale's maximum air superiority mission is usually 4 medium or long range Meteor depending on definition of long range and 2 short range with fuel tanks.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ef2000/

Fuel tanks are always carried in real life and they are dropped when fighting becomes closer ranged or if the plane needs to make very quick turns. They can carry more missiles but if you just want to carry as more missile than your enemy, then the Su and the F-15X will be better.

Definitely agree with you that just 2 medium range is not enough. This is why J-10 can carry 4. If you look at performance of engine compared to Rafale and the weight of each, the J-10 performance when carrying 4 PL-15 is still at better thrust to weight than Rafale with 6 missiles. Of course the Rafale with 6 missiles and three tanks still has 2 more missiles and much better range but it is not a problem and limit of performance with dual missiles.

I really think the J-10's engine and wing can easily deal with 6 medium range and three tanks in total but the performance will definitely not be as good and the wing life may be reduced a lot so even if it can carry just like Rafale can carry 8 or more Meteor and Typhoon can carry 10 AIM-120 but they don't due to fuel tank and performance degradation.

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## casual

UKBengali said:


> That is an interesting theory but I am not quite convinced.
> 
> For once, since 2019 China has been trying to sell the J-10C to other countries and so it gives them an incentive to show off the full missile carrying capability of the J-10C.
> 
> Also I have been googling shots of the J-11B and while I have not found a single shot of any J-11B carrying more than 4 AAMs, I have seen a pair where one was carrying two BVRAAMs in-between the engines and another was carrying two under the inner wing pylons.
> 
> It is quite possible that the J-10C can only carry only 4 missiles and so far China has felt little need to wire any more than 4 of the 11 hard-points to carry missiles. Strange if that is the case as you never know, especially over Taiwan but there you go. J-10Cs cannot always rely on J-11Bs being around to help if they are facing new Taiwanese F-16Vs that that may be able to carry up to 16 AIM-120D AMRAAMs.
> 
> PS - I have no idea where you got the 80% kill rate of modern BVR missiles from.
> AMRAAM has a 46% kill rate and that is against 3rd rate fighters and the US had all the advantage of AWACs etc. Let us be more conservative and assume 50% even with missiles with the calibre of PL-15. You cannot always wait till you are in the "no escape zone" before firing as the other guy may "ripple fire" at you and hope to kill you first with multiple shots.


Chinese radar tech is just as good as US. Very doubtful that US has any AWAC advantage as Chinese AWACs platforms are newer. Anyways, low missile load can be addressed by sending more planes on missions. J10 is not a heavy fighter.


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## CAPRICORN-88

casual said:


> Chinese radar tech is just as good as US. Very doubtful that US has any AWAC advantage as Chinese AWACs platforms are newer. Anyways, low missile load can be addressed by sending more planes on missions. J10 is not a heavy fighter.


If I says radar technology is one of the technological areas where China may have actually superseded leader USA, I wonder how many people will believe or agree with me.
But China needs not to flaunt it in order to demonstrate how advanced they are.

For instance: USAF needed an XQ58A Valkyrie drone to help its F-22 and F-35 two similar platform developed by themselves to communicate with each others meaning there are shortfalls in their original design concept.
Quantum Radar??? USAF has been only talking about it but i have yet to hear from any credible source of the existence of a working model. Now they talk about 6th generation US fighter.
Frankly all these, I take it with a pinch of salt. No point arguing. 

One has both the human resources for R&D and the funding while the other one is broke and can only talk about it.


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## serenity

Americans definitely still hold strong lead in engines and maybe also software still. They also like spending on exciting types of ideas which are actually often useless but good exercise like XB-70 or X-47B. Of course XB-70 is now something rather easy to achieve but for modern application something like 6 or 8 WS-10 engine onto a suitable bomber shape is expensive and not hold much value. Do you believe SR-72 existence? The Americans just have such large budget and experience but in 50 years will things be different?


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## Beast

serenity said:


> Americans definitely still hold strong lead in engines and maybe also software still. They also like spending on exciting types of ideas which are actually often useless but good exercise like XB-70 or X-47B. Of course XB-70 is now something rather easy to achieve but for modern application something like 6 or 8 WS-10 engine onto a suitable bomber shape is expensive and not hold much value. Do you believe SR-72 existence? The Americans just have such large budget and experience but in 50 years will things be different?


Yup! Like couldnt get rail gun work onboardship while Chinese has done so? Spendig billions on gerald ford super carrier and after so many yeas still couldnt join the fleet to serve?

US is declining. The new leader will takeover this role from them. This wil be my last reply for the OT.

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## serenity

X-47B created basis for their softwares used for other drone programs too for sure. China is not behind on these softwares in fact I suspect may even be ahead just based on amount of engineers working on this and the data pool. If USA has x testing platforms for data collection China is using 100x.


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## Baloch Pakistani

serenity said:


> Middle wing pylon can carry dual missiles and the drop in performance is not as much as you suggested. If mission require as many PL-15 as possible, *dual missile is fine and performance at medium range is okay because very close range kind of turning is not necessary in medium range launch until further into merge.*


What if the enemy fighter launches their BVR first and j10 has to perform high G evasive maneuvers with dual rails which will put immense burden on the pylon which is carrying dual rails.

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> No it is not, otherwise You would see much more often J-10s loaded with air to ground ordnance. IMO the J-10 is a decent multirole fighter with surely a limited weapons load given by the number of AAMs seen, but it does not need to have ... for more - more AAMs and more range - there is always the J-11 and also you have to keep in mind for what the J-10 was originally developed: To replace the J-7-series, which carried even less.



The older J-10A is made for air to air to complement PLAAF lack of capable fighters while Su-27 & J-11A weren't enough at that time. The newer J-10C new redesigned configuration is slower than the older J-10A, focus on low speed stability & maneuverability therefore it is more suited for air to ground search and destroy that often get into visual range of ground threats. 

Do you know that F-15C pilots sometimes find 4x AIM-7M or AIM-120C missiles not enough when up against ace enemy pilots that are good at evasive maneuver spoofing chaffs? Don't forget that the only air force that PLAAF would face is likely USAF & USN where their numbers of fighters would outnumbered PLAAF fighters. If you're flying J-10C with just 2x PL-15 & 2x PL-10E, when you used up the 2x PL-15 and there are still enemy fighters with AIM-120C7/D, are you going to turn around and flee coz they'll get shoot first while you need to spoof the incoming AMRAAMs in order to get into visual range to use the PL-10E.


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## casual

Baloch Pakistani said:


> What if the enemy fighter launches their BVR first and j10 has to perform high G evasive maneuvers with dual rails which will put immense burden on the pylon which is carrying dual rails.


You can always dump the rails


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## kungfugymnast

lcloo said:


> If 4 J10s can shoot down half a squadron of enemy jets, why would it need more missiles?
> 
> No squadron leader would want to fight on if he lost 8 of his pilots in a single battle.
> 
> This is not WW2 Battle of England. Today's air battles are decided by electronics and tactical moves, carrying a dozen missiles does not mean one has an upper hand.
> 
> Check up the latest air battle in 21st century, it was between Pakistan and India this February. Did they fired dozens and dozens of missiles at each other?



If the 4x J-10C you meant is up against IAF squadron, then fine. But if up against USAF or USN fighters, first of all they have the numbers. You launch 2x PL-15 at 2x enemy fighters, they'll launch at least 2x AMRAAMs at you & 2x at each of your wingmen for higher hit chance. Managed to spoof the 2 AMRAAMs, they'll launch another 2 at you while you have only 2x short range PL-10E left that requires to get into visual range. You'll probably run out of chaff before that even with 60x chaffs (double the usual amount) won't be enough to save you from 3-4 waves of 2x AMRAAMs. F/A-18E could carry 12 full bags of AMRAAMs, F-15C carries 8 max, while F-16C carries 6x AMRAAMs plus 2x AIM-9X. 

In Iraq, when US F-15C squadron faced Iraqi best pilots in Mig-25 Foxbat E that performed evasive maneuver well, they managed to spoof a dozen AMRAAMs. US present day conventional fighters are fitted with AESA incorporated RWR with directional warning receiver allowing pilots to plan their maneuver earlier and increase their chances of spoofing incoming missiles. 

Also not to forget ECM EF-18G that would assist in jamming and fooling radars & missiles reducing their effective range bringing fight closer. If you think numbers of missiles and guns aren't important, then expect to shoot down less fighters and might end up being shot down due to out of missile too soon.

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## kungfugymnast

casual said:


> You can always dump the rails



Dump the rails mean dumping the missiles too if there are still missiles on them. This means you'll be left with just 2x PL-10E without long range missile which is equally helpless

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## UKBengali

casual said:


> Chinese radar tech is just as good as US. Very doubtful that US has any AWAC advantage as Chinese AWACs platforms are newer. Anyways, low missile load can be addressed by sending more planes on missions. J10 is not a heavy fighter.



That is a BIG assumption.

US has a lot more experience than China and has been able to learn from it's many wars on how to refine it's radar tech.

I would give the US the advantage in radar tech and my point was not comparing radar tech but saying that the US AMRAAM had a 46% kill ratio, even when they faced poor opponents with outdated fighters and lack of AWACs platform. The idea that BVR missiles would have 80% kill ratio is not borne through actual combat records.




kungfugymnast said:


> If the 4x J-10C you meant is up against IAF squadron, then fine. But if up against USAF or USN fighters, first of all they have the numbers. You launch 2x PL-15 at 2x enemy fighters, they'll launch at least 2x AMRAAMs at you & 2x at each of your wingmen for higher hit chance. Managed to spoof the 2 AMRAAMs, they'll launch another 2 at you while you have only 2x short range PL-10E left that requires to get into visual range. You'll probably run out of chaff before that even with 60x chaffs (double the usual amount) won't be enough to save you from 3-4 waves of 2x AMRAAMs. F/A-18E could carry 12 full bags of AMRAAMs, F-15C carries 8 max, while F-16C carries 6x AMRAAMs plus 2x AIM-9X.
> 
> In Iraq, when US F-15C squadron faced Iraqi best pilots in Mig-25 Foxbat E that performed evasive maneuver well, they managed to spoof a dozen AMRAAMs. US present day conventional fighters are fitted with AESA incorporated RWR with directional warning receiver allowing pilots to plan their maneuver earlier and increase their chances of spoofing incoming missiles.
> 
> Also not to forget ECM EF-18G that would assist in jamming and fooling radars & missiles reducing their effective range bringing fight closer. If you think numbers of missiles and guns aren't important, then expect to shoot down less fighters and might end up being shot down due to out of missile too soon.




Taiwan’s new F-16V could carry up to 16 AIM-120D with new triple rails.


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## serenity

Baloch Pakistani said:


> What if the enemy fighter launches their BVR first and j10 has to perform high G evasive maneuvers with dual rails which will put immense burden on the pylon which is carrying dual rails.



We cannot what if these kind of things because in this case the enemy fighter cannot launch their BVR first. The PL-15 has better range and the J-10C has better radar than most fighter even 4.5 generation fighter. Su-35 with R-77 and R-37 doesn't stand a chance against J-10C in BVR. Typhoon doesn't even have AESA or even just a basic multi antenna radar. Rafale is much better and has Meteor so in 4.5 generation this is only one that can shoot at J-10C before J-10C can do anything.

Anyway what is the science to prove the dual rails deplete the performance and really by how much? I personally don't think the performance degrade that much. Also why does the J-10 need to immediately do evasive maneuver if the enemy already has upper hand? So in this case the one who shoot first always will win because the other will always immediately defend using evasive maneuver?

Whenever BVR fight starts, the pilots do not know they are already fired on with BVR missiles until missile seeker is active much closer. They usually understand the enemy's rough range and assume missile is probably on the way and most pilots will have to stay until they give their own shot.

I feel you don't understand how BVR fight works. It is difficult to understand but can say that range and radar are very important along with missile numbers but there is also fighter range, fuel, engine power, acceleration, climb, turning, RCS, electronic jamming etc.

To summarize more missiles is good and the J-10 can most likely only carry 4 BVR missile with 2 short range missiles and three fuel tanks. This is not good but also actually not bad load for single engine fighter. It is not F-16 level unless last pylon can actually carry BVR as well.

Consider the Rafale's and Typhoon's manufacturer own advertisement for air superiority is three tanks and 4 or 6 BVR missiles with 2 short range. This is at most two BVR more than J-10 with similar range on all three fighters. Both these fighters are larger and heavier class also much more expensive and complex with two engine designs. F-16 tip pylon should not carry AIM-120 due to damage to wings so F-16 with three tanks also can only carry at most 6 BVR with dual rail and 2 short range. This is better than the others but it is also carrying dual or triple rail. So it should also drop everything when J-16 fire PL-xx?

If things work this way, the AIM-54 or R-37 and PL-xx style long range missiles is all you need. Su-27 to 35 and J-11 to J-16 cannot be beaten and all airforce should just design only heavy weight. Missiles and radar are not perfect and no one really knows each other's electronic warfare technology levels well. J-10 designers really strangely decided not to give inner pylon missiles capability because for sure they know it is useless and will need to carry fuel tank anyway.

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## UKBengali

serenity said:


> We cannot what if these kind of things because in this case the enemy fighter cannot launch their BVR first. The PL-15 has better range and the J-10C has better radar than most fighter even 4.5 generation fighter. Su-35 with R-77 and R-37 doesn't stand a chance against J-10C in BVR. Typhoon doesn't even have AESA or even just a basic multi antenna radar. Rafale is much better and has Meteor so in 4.5 generation this is only one that can shoot at J-10C before J-10C can do anything.
> 
> Anyway what is the science to prove the dual rails deplete the performance and really by how much? I personally don't think the performance degrade that much. Also why does the J-10 need to immediately do evasive maneuver if the enemy already has upper hand? So in this case the one who shoot first always will win because the other will always immediately defend using evasive maneuver?
> 
> Whenever BVR fight starts, the pilots do not know they are already fired on with BVR missiles until missile seeker is active much closer. They usually understand the enemy's rough range and assume missile is probably on the way and most pilots will have to stay until they give their own shot.
> 
> I feel you don't understand how BVR fight works. It is difficult to understand but can say that range and radar are very important along with missile numbers but there is also fighter range, fuel, engine power, acceleration, climb, turning, RCS, electronic jamming etc.
> 
> To summarize more missiles is good and the J-10 can most likely only carry 4 BVR missile with 2 short range missiles and three fuel tanks. This is not good but also actually not bad load for single engine fighter. It is not F-16 level unless last pylon can actually carry BVR as well.
> 
> Consider the Rafale's and Typhoon's manufacturer own advertisement for air superiority is three tanks and 4 or 6 BVR missiles with 2 short range. This is at most two BVR more than J-10 with similar range on all three fighters. Both these fighters are larger and heavier class also much more expensive and complex with two engine designs. F-16 tip pylon should not carry AIM-120 due to damage to wings so F-16 with three tanks also can only carry at most 6 BVR with dual rail and 2 short range. This is better than the others but it is also carrying dual or triple rail. So it should also drop everything when J-16 fire PL-xx?
> 
> If things work this way, the AIM-54 or R-37 and PL-xx style long range missiles is all you need. Su-27 to 35 and J-11 to J-16 cannot be beaten and all airforce should just design only heavy weight. Missiles and radar are not perfect and no one really knows each other's electronic warfare technology levels well. J-10 designers really strangely decided not to give inner pylon missiles capability because for sure they know it is useless and will need to carry fuel tank anyway.



You forget that Taiwan has ordered 66 F-16V with APG83 AESA radar, with the existing F-16s being upgraded to this standard.

Some reports suggest that it will even have triple rails and so would seriously outgun J-10C in BVR.


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## CAPRICORN-88

UKBengali said:


> You forget that Taiwan has ordered 66 F-16V with APG83 AESA radar, with the existing F-16s being upgraded to this standard.
> 
> Some reports suggest that it will even have triple rails and so would seriously outgun J-10C in BVR.


What is your point?


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## serenity

UKBengali said:


> You forget that Taiwan has ordered 66 F-16V with APG83 AESA radar, with the existing F-16s being upgraded to this standard.
> 
> Some reports suggest that it will even have triple rails and so would seriously outgun J-10C in BVR.



But then for those J-16 can hold 10 BVR missiles and 2 short range and still fly much longer range than F-16V. So the F-16V is outgunned.

It is not like a situation because Taiwan send 100 F-16V because they only have 100 available that means China send 100 J-10. Yes you are right the F-16V has better carrying ability than J-10. Just like J-16 has better carrying ability than F-16.

But that is different side. Another point you guys are saying is J-10 and F-16 are same class of fighter because engine of AL-31FN and WS-10G is similar to F-100 and F-110 so both fighter should carry similar number of missiles.

This only prove if F-16 carry 8 BVR missiles with no fuel tanks compared to J-10 with only 4 BVR and three fuel tanks, that the comparison is different. If F-16 is carrying fuel tanks as well and still has 2 more BVR than J-10 then the F-16's performance will be less since both fighter has similar engine performance and similar weight. J-10 has better lift and pitch authority at high angle.

We can only say J-10's designers did not give inner pylon missile capability because either they need those points for fuel or because they consider 4 BVR as enough for the lightweight fighter.

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## serenity

Perhaps custom order can give inner pylon missile carrying ability if it is too important for the customer. J-10 was made for PLAAF requirements and maybe the PLAAF think they have enough J-10 that 4 BVR missile is enough but range is more important to them so the fighter is designed for over 3000km ferry range with fuel tanks and combat radius that is close to flanker. Of course range to PLAAF is more important than to carry 2 more BVR. PLAAF has hundreds of J-10. They can send many against some enemies so each one may need longer legs even if sacrifice two missiles.

For Pakistan, J-10's internal fuel is probably good enough for most mission. If they need longer range they can carry one fuel tank and there is also refuel pod. Maybe if Pakistan is interested in J-10 they will ask Chengdu to give inner pylon missile capability.

At the moment J-10's missile carrying capability when measured with range is about the same as Gripen but the J-10 is heavier class and should be same as F-16. If PLAAF's J-10 can carry BVR or dual rail in inner pylon it can compare as missile truck like the others but with very short range.

Maybe PAF J-10 in imagination now can use missiles in those pylons or even have purpose designed dual or triple rail and if PAF want to carry 10 BVR it can but with poor range and bad performance until those missiles are launched. It is possible and not too hard. There is nothing really stopping it since J-10's engine performance and thrust to weight is good and so if canard and design.

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## UKBengali

serenity said:


> But then for those J-16 can hold 10 BVR missiles and 2 short range and still fly much longer range than F-16V. So the F-16V is outgunned.
> 
> It is not like a situation because Taiwan send 100 F-16V because they only have 100 available that means China send 100 J-10. Yes you are right the F-16V has better carrying ability than J-10. Just like J-16 has better carrying ability than F-16.
> 
> But that is different side. Another point you guys are saying is J-10 and F-16 are same class of fighter because engine of AL-31FN and WS-10G is similar to F-100 and F-110 so both fighter should carry similar number of missiles.
> 
> This only prove if F-16 carry 8 BVR missiles with no fuel tanks compared to J-10 with only 4 BVR and three fuel tanks, that the comparison is different. If F-16 is carrying fuel tanks as well and still has 2 more BVR than J-10 then the F-16's performance will be less since both fighter has similar engine performance and similar weight. J-10 has better lift and pitch authority at high angle.
> 
> We can only say J-10's designers did not give inner pylon missile capability because either they need those points for fuel or because they consider 4 BVR as enough for the lightweight fighter.



J-10C should have the edge over the F-16 at high altitude engagements due to it’s canard-delta design, whereas F-16 should have the edge in low to mid altitudes.

I would think the F-35 derived APG-83 would be better than the AESA radar on the J-10C and so that may cause J-10C pilots targeting issues against Taiwanese F-16s.


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## serenity

UKBengali said:


> J-10C should have the edge over the F-16 at high altitude engagements due to it’s canard-delta design, whereas F-16 should have the edge in low to mid altitudes.
> 
> I would think the F-35 derived APG-83 would be better than the AESA radar on the J-10C and so that may cause J-10C pilots targeting issues against Taiwanese F-16s.



Perhaps the radar will like you say. I have no doubt in my mind the F-16V is at least better than J-10C. It is the most powerful F-16 using Lockheed technology from F-22 and F-35. J-10C is about 5 years old now and little smaller upgrades don't compare with F-16V.

I think if the question is to ask if Taiwanese F-16V is better than J-10C individually then my opinion is yes much better. But that is alone not worth much. J-10C is still fantastic fighter and can beat every Flanker type aircraft except J-16 in BVR. WVR is hard to say due to pilot skill and many factors. So Su-35 carrying 10 BVR is still useless against J-10C carrying just even 2 BVR. This I am very confident in. Give J-10C 4 BVR and it can play with even J-16 because J-16 RCS is high and J-10C is very small. With 4 BVR the J-10 can still carry three fuel tanks which give the J-10 similar flying range as the best range fighters like Flankers. So for BVR it is not just missile number. Of course we will love it if J-10C can fly combat radius 1500km without refuel and still carry 8 BVR and 2 WVR while still turning sharply and climbing easily. But the engineers determined the optimized point in range and missile carriage is 4 BVR, 2 WVR and three fuel tanks for roughly 3000km ferry range. It can still carry one gun and one pod or two pod types while it does this and even two small bombs in rear points but in this configuration just doesn't make sense.

For J-10 the Chengdu people could give it this level around 2015 and that's it. This is what they can do with single AL-31 or WS-10 class engine with this limit in size and weight. F-16V in 2018 or 2019 is what best Lockheed people can do. It is no doubt going to be better than J-10C I think but maybe there are some tricks still left unseen.

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## serenity

I hope if Pakistan wishes to buy J-10C, they will ask for missile ability in those two inner pylons because to Pakistan they use the missiles more than the range with extra fuel tanks whereas China requires the range and has plenty of J-10 and other fighters to carry missiles. It is very easy to develop dual and triple rail pylon. Much easier than internal weapons bay and side bay that deploy weapon the way J-20 does or to eject like F-22 it is even more complex. The issue is really engine performance.

Those Gripens and Rafale and Typhoon are all about advertising and making export money when J-10 was not exportable due at first to China's laws and then to consideration for Russian engine. Now WS-10 engine is being used, there is really less limitation except sensitive technologies. However J-10CE is also definitely not going to be cheap. The Europeans will show their fighter carrying 1000 different things but take a look at their engine performance in combination. It is not that much better and the thrust to weight is very poor. Combine with their advertising weapon load they are asking for trouble plus also shit range. They don't talk about the shit range to the customer or the fighter cannot climb when loaded like a truck. But European countries I can walk through and range is not a problem for them.

Dassault and Eurofighter group both recommend customer airforce air superiority load is usually 4 BVR 2 WVR and three tanks or 6 BVR 2 WVR and three tanks if using fuselage points or dual rail or triple rail. Never more than this even though those fighter can really carry more. Same with Gripen advertisement. Never show with fuel tank just triple rail everywhere. Can you imagine how poor the range and turn rate is when that is loaded? They think they can load a Gripen with F414 power engine to the point that nearly double J-10's recommended air superiority load? J-10 can also do that when you load with YJ-91 and fuel and missiles and bombs and pods too but performance becomes shit and airframe wear faster. Maybe in war where airframe life expectancy is already low, they will overload with long range and medium range missiles to shoot off quickly and then get closer for WVR if necessary.

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## Baloch Pakistani

serenity said:


> Perhaps custom order can give inner pylon missile carrying ability if it is too important for the customer. J-10 was made for PLAAF requirements and maybe the PLAAF think they have enough J-10 that 4 BVR missile is enough but range is more important to them so the fighter is designed for over 3000km ferry range with fuel tanks and combat radius that is close to flanker. Of course range to PLAAF is more important than to carry 2 more BVR. PLAAF has hundreds of J-10. They can send many against some enemies so each one may need longer legs even if sacrifice two missiles.
> 
> For Pakistan, J-10's internal fuel is probably good enough for most mission. If they need longer range they can carry one fuel tank and there is also refuel pod. Maybe if Pakistan is interested in J-10 they will ask Chengdu to give inner pylon missile capability.
> 
> At the moment J-10's missile carrying capability when measured with range is about the same as Gripen but the J-10 is heavier class and should be same as F-16. If PLAAF's J-10 can carry BVR or dual rail in inner pylon it can compare as missile truck like the others but with very short range.
> 
> Maybe PAF J-10 in imagination now can use missiles in those pylons or even have purpose designed dual or triple rail and if PAF want to carry 10 BVR it can but with poor range and bad performance until those missiles are launched. It is possible and not too hard. There is nothing really stopping it since J-10's engine performance and thrust to weight is good and so if canard and design.


That was the answer I was looking for. 
How would you rate J10C against rafale in air to air battle ?


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## serenity

Baloch Pakistani said:


> That was the answer I was looking for.
> How would you rate J10C against rafale in air to air battle ?



I think in the past Rafale was less than Typhoon and not much better than Gripen but of course for India Rafale has much more useful range than Gripen and many other things they considered. Now the Typhoon seems like given up by the group because UK has F-35 to play with and wants to develop their own 5.5 gen fighter, Germany wants to team with France to develop their 5.5 gen fighter and France has of course that project which they are major contributor or only player. France also is not buying F-35 so before that 5.5 gen fighter is ready they have continue to improve and work on Rafale. This has now made Rafale into much better fighter than Typhoon though in 1990s and 2000s it seemed Typhoon was much better and had more room for upgrade. French did amazing job with Rafale to be honest and have microengineered perfection whereas Russian or Chinese solutions usually will have taken more room and power.

J-10C is probably not as good as Rafale India is receiving. Slightly lower total engine power, less carriage of weapons, less range as well. RBE2 AESA version is also quite new like J-10C's AESA and J-10C uses similar high end electronic jamming and sensor fusion equipment as modern western fighters as J-10's first block to use such equipment at least shown to public. I have no idea how good each one is in the secretive departments but from public information the Rafale F3 and F4 are definitely better but small details are important too which are secretive. J-10 is PLAAF's low end cheaper fighter for tasks not involved in first line attack and I don't expect J-10 to have the best stuff that for example J-16 may be carrying. Rafale is France's best fighter and most important frontline like J-20 is to China. So I think Rafale is better or much better than J-10C.

However the J-10C is also simpler and much cheaper. Can be assembled faster and only needs to use one engine. There are some operation advantage here and readiness of single engine fighter always superior to double engine because if one engine of double engine has some issues to need attention, the whole fighter is grounded and require twice time or labor for engine inspection and typical maintenance with twice possibility of problem resulting in grounding. Anyway that is quite small differences still.

If PAF considering J-10C to counter Rafale in IAF, I think there are some things to meet and the first is ask Chengdu to fully equip inner pylon for all weapons because PAF doesn't need 3000km range. Maybe even see if it is possible to reinforce outer pylon and wing section so outer pylon can also carry PL-12 and PL-15. Then PAF must make sure for every Rafale in IAF that the PAF has at least 2 J-10C just in case but this is just perfect world imagination. This price is maybe possible to be even cheaper because China will definitely want this too and offer basically similar price as for PLAAF. Rafale is better or much better but not even half generation ahead overall. PL-15 has very good range and behaviour. Meteor has better range and long range continuous energy but PL-15 has better electronics and seekers and also has solution to energy issue that while it doesn't have good energy throughout flight it at least can accelerate towards target again. This is actually elegant solution and still quite cheap to the point PLAAF doesn't buy much ramjet powered air to air missile and kept as special mission equipment. Also all of it is much cheaper than what India pays for Rafale. So IAF can make India broke by trying to arms race Pakistan in this small department if it wants to fall into this trap.

Only problem I imagine is PLAAF will not be happy to slow down delivery from Chengdu as PAF receives J-10 as well where China makes little profit or no extra profit. So if Pakistan for some reason choose to buy J-10 and cooperate with China it will definitely buy either small numbers just to match Rafale in IAF or it will buy quite a lot so that another assembly line can open just for Pakistan. I don't think PLAAF will accept lower yearly delivery number of J-10C and Chinese government also will not want this. So either Pakistan invest in whole assembly line possibly just for its own like JF-17 but this requires large effort and quite a lot of expenses and time.

Therefore J-10C will not be bought or maybe just very small numbers with some upgraded electronic equipment as special forces almost. These J-10 for Pakistan I believe would become much better than PLAAF's own J-10C but also will cost either side much more. They may add some equipment considered by PLAAF to be unnecessary for second tier fighter in PLAAF but these equipments may balance against F3 or F4 level Rafale. More likely Pakistan and China already decided 5th generation is better and for now, India has years to learn on Rafale and for full delivery. Pakistan also should not get into some money problems just to arms race Indian in fighters better to spend the money more wisely and find good 5th generation solution that is superior and is not a direct import. This is not easy because it requires a lot of cooperation. I don't believe China's government thinks Pakistan really needs this to rush and security is somehow in danger so I don't expect to see cooperation between us for 5th gen. We still do not know what the plan for J-31 or J-35 is for PLAAF and that means for PAF option too.

Let's remember even if PAF doesn't exist and IAF has 36 Rafale, these Rafale must still need fuel and reload weapons. As long as Pakistan can destroy Rafale's bed, they are use once and forget. Rafale is not F-22.

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## UKBengali

serenity said:


> I think in the past Rafale was less than Typhoon and not much better than Gripen but of course for India Rafale has much more useful range than Gripen and many other things they considered. Now the Typhoon seems like given up by the group because UK has F-35 to play with and wants to develop their own 5.5 gen fighter, Germany wants to team with France to develop their 5.5 gen fighter and France has of course that project which they are major contributor or only player. France also is not buying F-35 so before that 5.5 gen fighter is ready they have continue to improve and work on Rafale. This has now made Rafale into much better fighter than Typhoon though in 1990s and 2000s it seemed Typhoon was much better and had more room for upgrade. French did amazing job with Rafale to be honest and have microengineered perfection whereas Russian or Chinese solutions usually will have taken more room and power.
> 
> J-10C is probably not as good as Rafale India is receiving. Slightly lower total engine power, less carriage of weapons, less range as well. RBE2 AESA version is also quite new like J-10C's AESA and J-10C uses similar high end electronic jamming and sensor fusion equipment as modern western fighters as J-10's first block to use such equipment at least shown to public. I have no idea how good each one is in the secretive departments but from public information the Rafale F3 and F4 are definitely better but small details are important too which are secretive. J-10 is PLAAF's low end cheaper fighter for tasks not involved in first line attack and I don't expect J-10 to have the best stuff that for example J-16 may be carrying. Rafale is France's best fighter and most important frontline like J-20 is to China. So I think Rafale is better or much better than J-10C.
> 
> However the J-10C is also simpler and much cheaper. Can be assembled faster and only needs to use one engine. There are some operation advantage here and readiness of single engine fighter always superior to double engine because if one engine of double engine has some issues to need attention, the whole fighter is grounded and require twice time or labor for engine inspection and typical maintenance with twice possibility of problem resulting in grounding. Anyway that is quite small differences still.
> 
> If PAF considering J-10C to counter Rafale in IAF, I think there are some things to meet and the first is ask Chengdu to fully equip inner pylon for all weapons because PAF doesn't need 3000km range. Maybe even see if it is possible to reinforce outer pylon and wing section so outer pylon can also carry PL-12 and PL-15. Then PAF must make sure for every Rafale in IAF that the PAF has at least 2 J-10C just in case. This is maybe possible to be even cheaper because China will definitely want this too and offer basically similar price as for PLAAF. Rafale is better or much better but not even half generation ahead overall. PL-15 has very good range and behaviour. Meteor has better range and low range energy but PL-15 has better electronics and seekers and also has solution to energy issue. Also all of it is much cheaper than what India pays for Rafale. So IAF can make India broke by trying to arms race Pakistan in this small department if it wants to fall into this trap.
> 
> Only problem I imagine is PLAAF will not be happy to slow down delivery from Chengdu as PAF receives J-10 as well where China makes little profit or no extra profit. So if Pakistan for some reason choose to buy J-10 and cooperate with China it will definitely buy either small numbers just to match Rafale in IAF or it will buy quite a lot so that another assembly line can open just for Pakistan. I don't think PLAAF will accept lower yearly delivery number of J-10C and Chinese government also will not want this. So either Pakistan invest in whole assembly line possibly just for its own like JF-17 but this requires large effort and quite a lot of expenses and time.
> 
> Therefore J-10C will not be bought or maybe just very small numbers with some upgraded electronic equipment as special forces almost. These J-10 for Pakistan I believe would become much better than PLAAF's own J-10C but also will cost either side much more. They may add some equipment considered by PLAAF to be unnecessary for second tier fighter in PLAAF but these equipments may balance against F3 or F4 level Rafale. More likely Pakistan and China already decided 5th generation is better and for now, India has years to learn on Rafale and for full delivery. Pakistan also should not get into some money problems just to arms race Indian in fighters better to spend the money more wisely and find good 5th generation solution that is superior and is not a direct import. This is not easy because it requires a lot of cooperation. I don't believe China's government thinks Pakistan really needs this to rush and security is somehow in danger.



Few points

1. AESA radar for Typhoon is ready and will be first supplied to ME export clients like Kuwait and Qatar.

2. Tempest will be true 6th gen fighter as UK has RR for engines and gained a lot of access to F-35 stealth tech by being the only a Tier 1 partner for F-35.LM was lead for F-35 with UK’s BAE and Northrop as prime contractors.

3. I agree that the French/German next-gen fighter will be 5.5 gen as they lack the engine and stealth tech.

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## Baloch Pakistani

serenity said:


> I think in the past Rafale was less than Typhoon and not much better than Gripen but of course for India Rafale has much more useful range than Gripen and many other things they considered. Now the Typhoon seems like given up by the group because UK has F-35 to play with and wants to develop their own 5.5 gen fighter, Germany wants to team with France to develop their 5.5 gen fighter and France has of course that project which they are major contributor or only player. France also is not buying F-35 so before that 5.5 gen fighter is ready they have continue to improve and work on Rafale. This has now made Rafale into much better fighter than Typhoon though in 1990s and 2000s it seemed Typhoon was much better and had more room for upgrade. French did amazing job with Rafale to be honest and have microengineered perfection whereas Russian or Chinese solutions usually will have taken more room and power.
> 
> J-10C is probably not as good as Rafale India is receiving. Slightly lower total engine power, less carriage of weapons, less range as well. RBE2 AESA version is also quite new like J-10C's AESA and J-10C uses similar high end electronic jamming and sensor fusion equipment as modern western fighters as J-10's first block to use such equipment at least shown to public. I have no idea how good each one is in the secretive departments but from public information the Rafale F3 and F4 are definitely better but small details are important too which are secretive. J-10 is PLAAF's low end cheaper fighter for tasks not involved in first line attack and I don't expect J-10 to have the best stuff that for example J-16 may be carrying. Rafale is France's best fighter and most important frontline like J-20 is to China. So I think Rafale is better or much better than J-10C.
> 
> However the J-10C is also simpler and much cheaper. Can be assembled faster and only needs to use one engine. There are some operation advantage here and readiness of single engine fighter always superior to double engine because if one engine of double engine has some issues to need attention, the whole fighter is grounded and require twice time or labor for engine inspection and typical maintenance with twice possibility of problem resulting in grounding. Anyway that is quite small differences still.
> 
> If PAF considering J-10C to counter Rafale in IAF, I think there are some things to meet and the first is ask Chengdu to fully equip inner pylon for all weapons because PAF doesn't need 3000km range. Maybe even see if it is possible to reinforce outer pylon and wing section so outer pylon can also carry PL-12 and PL-15. Then PAF must make sure for every Rafale in IAF that the PAF has at least 2 J-10C just in case but this is just perfect world imagination. This price is maybe possible to be even cheaper because China will definitely want this too and offer basically similar price as for PLAAF. Rafale is better or much better but not even half generation ahead overall. PL-15 has very good range and behaviour. Meteor has better range and long range continuous energy but PL-15 has better electronics and seekers and also has solution to energy issue that while it doesn't have good energy throughout flight it at least can accelerate towards target again. This is actually elegant solution and still quite cheap to the point PLAAF doesn't buy much ramjet powered air to air missile and kept as special mission equipment. Also all of it is much cheaper than what India pays for Rafale. So IAF can make India broke by trying to arms race Pakistan in this small department if it wants to fall into this trap.
> 
> Only problem I imagine is PLAAF will not be happy to slow down delivery from Chengdu as PAF receives J-10 as well where China makes little profit or no extra profit. So if Pakistan for some reason choose to buy J-10 and cooperate with China it will definitely buy either small numbers just to match Rafale in IAF or it will buy quite a lot so that another assembly line can open just for Pakistan. I don't think PLAAF will accept lower yearly delivery number of J-10C and Chinese government also will not want this. So either Pakistan invest in whole assembly line possibly just for its own like JF-17 but this requires large effort and quite a lot of expenses and time.
> 
> Therefore J-10C will not be bought or maybe just very small numbers with some upgraded electronic equipment as special forces almost. These J-10 for Pakistan I believe would become much better than PLAAF's own J-10C but also will cost either side much more. They may add some equipment considered by PLAAF to be unnecessary for second tier fighter in PLAAF but these equipments may balance against F3 or F4 level Rafale. More likely Pakistan and China already decided 5th generation is better and for now, India has years to learn on Rafale and for full delivery. Pakistan also should not get into some money problems just to arms race Indian in fighters better to spend the money more wisely and find good 5th generation solution that is superior and is not a direct import. This is not easy because it requires a lot of cooperation. I don't believe China's government thinks Pakistan really needs this to rush and security is somehow in danger so I don't expect to see cooperation between us for 5th gen. We still do not know what the plan for J-31 or J-35 is for PLAAF and that means for PAF option too.
> 
> Let's remember even if PAF doesn't exist and IAF has 36 Rafale, these Rafale must still need fuel and reload weapons. As long as Pakistan can destroy Rafale's bed, they are use once and forget. Rafale is not F-22.


Thanks a lot for such a detailed response. I learned a lot about J10 from your replies.

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## serenity

UKBengali said:


> Few points
> 
> 1. AESA radar for Typhoon is ready and will be first supplied to ME export clients like Kuwait and Qatar.
> 
> 2. Tempest will be true 6th gen fighter as UK has RR for engines and gained a lot of access to F-35 stealth tech by being the only a Tier 1 partner for F-35.LM was lead for F-35 with UK’s BAE and Northrop as prime contractors.
> 
> 3. I agree that the French/German next-gen fighter will be 5.5 gen as they lack the engine and stealth tech.



You are right. Typhoon's AESA is finally ready but none of the original partner are buying it? Because they are all buying F-35 or developing own 5.5 generation fighter. Anyway I guess India could also buy that AESA Typhoon but they have closer relationship with French military deals and dealing with UK, Spain, Germany, and Italy together is too much headache. They made the right choice with Rafale over Typhoon and definitely better than American offer of older F-15 type or F-18EF. I think American offer of F-16V is now much more attractive compared to those in the past. In this department of major project development, they have not yet gone into the phase of genuine design. The model mockup shows is purely artist made and totally will not be how it looks. UK has no need for such things and the funding is drying up. Such a project is truly more enormous than people can imagine. South Korea economy is stronger and their military technology is almost as good with access to American assistance and after 10 years of developing KFX they already given up on internal bays years ago. They say will have in future upgrade but truly will not happen because cannot be done. There are things said just for certain audience and there are models made for certain investors and interest that is all. USA or China will 100% fly first 6th generation that is obviously different to 5th gen.

Tempest is on paper still and I promise we will not see prototype flying of Tempest for at least 10 years. Most likely ore than 10 years and another 10 until into service. It's too hard to call it 5.5 gen or 6th gen or just 5th generation. 6th generation has not become defined yet. Chinese anjian can even be called 6th gen just needs to improve its AI and continue building data bank.

I think whatever French and German come with they can solve stealth easy. It is not hard for them surely. Even with metamaterial and other special micro-electronics both of them are very capable of this I think. American may keep all their information secret but none of these things are impossible with money and the right people. They have it all and UK stealth is also too easy. Americans may even assist with UK.

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## serenity

I think talking about Tempest and the future stuff from Germany and France is too wasteful. The point is to say they have other toys they are working on and so the original Typhoon partners are not quite in hurry to spend a lot of money for Typhoon upgrades and new units in any hurry. Russia is not quite the same and they have declining economies and managing Euro Union is not easy or cheap. UK is similar and has security needs satisfied in total by USA and if they want to develop next gen they are not in big hurry at all unless they think they can export it which is why they are marketing Tempest even though the engineers have not even decided on anything solid yet.

Talk about Tempest and Airbus 5.5 or 6th gen is like talking about anjian or recent American announcement of testing some new aircraft like they are magic pieces with a lot of mystery.

India could pick AESA Typhoon since it is ready now but it is not much better than Rafale if it is even better and it is more trouble dealing with four countries with no close ties to Indian airforce spending. SNECMA or now Safran will help make M88 into new Kaveri. Just renamed. For Pakistan, the situation is not in a hurry but India has much more money to spend. It must take smart choices to keep up.

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## UKBengali

serenity said:


> You are right. Typhoon's AESA is finally ready but none of the original partner are buying it? Because they are all buying F-35 or developing own 5.5 generation fighter. Anyway I guess India could also buy that AESA Typhoon but they have closer relationship with French military deals and dealing with UK, Spain, Germany, and Italy together is too much headache. They made the right choice with Rafale over Typhoon and definitely better than American offer of older F-15 type or F-18EF. I think American offer of F-16V is now much more attractive compared to those in the past. In this department of major project development, they have not yet gone into the phase of genuine design. The model mockup shows is purely artist made and totally will not be how it looks. UK has no need for such things and the funding is drying up. Such a project is truly more enormous than people can imagine. South Korea economy is stronger and their military technology is almost as good with access to American assistance and after 10 years of developing KFX they already given up on internal bays years ago. They say will have in future upgrade but truly will not happen because cannot be done. There are things said just for certain audience and there are models made for certain investors and interest that is all. USA or China will 100% fly first 6th generation that is obviously different to 5th gen.
> 
> Tempest is on paper still and I promise we will not see prototype flying of Tempest for at least 10 years. Most likely ore than 10 years and another 10 until into service. It's too hard to call it 5.5 gen or 6th gen or just 5th generation. 6th generation has not become defined yet. Chinese anjian can even be called 6th gen just needs to improve its AI and continue building data bank.
> 
> I think whatever French and German come with they can solve stealth easy. It is not hard for them surely. Even with metamaterial and other special micro-electronics both of them are very capable of this I think. American may keep all their information secret but none of these things are impossible with money and the right people. They have it all and UK stealth is also too easy. Americans may even assist with UK.



This is off-topic but to inform:

1. UK is developing even more advanced AESA radar(ECR 2) to upgrade at least some of it’s Eurofighters from 2025 onwards. This tech will be used to build the Tempest radar.

2. Italy and Sweden are already working with UK on Tempest and chances are high that they will end up being full partners and buying the plane as neither has the tech or the money to go it alone.

3. There are credible reports that UK intends to slash the number of F-35s it intends to buy from 138 to 70 and so freeing up 10 billion US dollars to pour into developing the Tempest.

UK will even build Tempest by itself if it has to as it will want to save it’s aerospace industry - the best outside the US in the world.

PS - Do you know that UK designs and builds the VTOL section of the F-35 engine, the whole of the rear fuselage, tail planes, fins and the electronic warfare system, among other parts. It also designed and built 40% of the 80% complete backup engine for F-35 with GE.
It is the only peer to the US in aerospace tech and Airbus needs it’s engine and wing tech to compete with Boeing.

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## mike2000 is back

serenity said:


> South Korea economy is stronger and their military technology is almost as good with access to American assistance and after 10 years of developing KFX they already given up on internal bays years ago.


Lol You are really comparing UK and South Korea military industry technology? Lol

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## kungfugymnast

UKBengali said:


> That is a BIG assumption.
> 
> US has a lot more experience than China and has been able to learn from it's many wars on how to refine it's radar tech.
> 
> I would give the US the advantage in radar tech and my point was not comparing radar tech but saying that the US AMRAAM had a 46% kill ratio, even when they faced poor opponents with outdated fighters and lack of AWACs platform. The idea that BVR missiles would have 80% kill ratio is not borne through actual combat records.
> 
> Taiwan’s new F-16V could carry up to 16 AIM-120D with new triple rails.



Yes, never underestimate US radar, avionics (especially ECM) and missile effectiveness because they are proven and upgraded every time they got into war. Best examples are the AMRAAM that was upgraded to B during desert storm then C after desert storm. RWR & MAW too were upgraded with most notable with F/A-18C, A-10A shot down by Mig-25 & SA-2 in Iraq & F-16C shot down over Serbia. More sensors were added with more detailed RWR screen warning pilots on shooter direction, position and incoming missiles. 

Put aside US firing 2x AMRAAMs per aircraft, the AIM-120B/C hit rate is like 90% against older Russian fighters that have poor RWR (if excluded the Mig-25 success in spoofing dozens AMRAAMs that brought down the hit ratio badly). AIM-120C7/D hit rate increased but if up against fighters with effective RWR, probably the rate is 50-60% depending on the targeted fighter maneuverability + pilot's skills. 

Also numbers of Iraqi Mig-23/25/29 & Mirage F1 with medium range missiles R23/27/40 & R550 matra/super matra failed to acquire lock believed to be due to US electronic warfare EA-6B & EF-111A ECM. The Mig-25 shot down F/A-18C at 15 miles head on. Most of the BVR engagement started below 25 miles despite AIM-120A/B & AIM-7M have effective range way above 40 miles (max 37/38Nm). The max effective range only take from high altitude and speed launch. In rear engagement against a fleeing fast enemy aircraft could reduce AIM-120C and R77 range to less than 20Nm, 15Nm.

F-16V tripple rack is likely fake because F-16V engine thrust is only 2000lb more than the block 50/52 F-16CJ. 8 air to air missiles is max which would reduce its max G-limit to 7.5-8G. F-16C on full air to ground max payload would maneuver badly with 6.5G. 

For J-10C, better they give it 6x air to air missiles without dual rack like F-16C or else, they'll be outgunned outmissiles and also outnumbered by swarm of enemies. PLAAF would deploy J-11B mostly even if the enemy is flying just F-16C.

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## kungfugymnast

Ir


serenity said:


> We cannot what if these kind of things because in this case the enemy fighter cannot launch their BVR first. The PL-15 has better range and the J-10C has better radar than most fighter even 4.5 generation fighter. Su-35 with R-77 and R-37 doesn't stand a chance against J-10C in BVR. Typhoon doesn't even have AESA or even just a basic multi antenna radar. Rafale is much better and has Meteor so in 4.5 generation this is only one that can shoot at J-10C before J-10C can do anything.
> 
> Anyway what is the science to prove the dual rails deplete the performance and really by how much? I personally don't think the performance degrade that much. Also why does the J-10 need to immediately do evasive maneuver if the enemy already has upper hand? So in this case the one who shoot first always will win because the other will always immediately defend using evasive maneuver?
> 
> Whenever BVR fight starts, the pilots do not know they are already fired on with BVR missiles until missile seeker is active much closer. They usually understand the enemy's rough range and assume missile is probably on the way and most pilots will have to stay until they give their own shot.
> 
> I feel you don't understand how BVR fight works. It is difficult to understand but can say that range and radar are very important along with missile numbers but there is also fighter range, fuel, engine power, acceleration, climb, turning, RCS, electronic jamming etc.
> 
> To summarize more missiles is good and the J-10 can most likely only carry 4 BVR missile with 2 short range missiles and three fuel tanks. This is not good but also actually not bad load for single engine fighter. It is not F-16 level unless last pylon can actually carry BVR as well.
> 
> Consider the Rafale's and Typhoon's manufacturer own advertisement for air superiority is three tanks and 4 or 6 BVR missiles with 2 short range. This is at most two BVR more than J-10 with similar range on all three fighters. Both these fighters are larger and heavier class also much more expensive and complex with two engine designs. F-16 tip pylon should not carry AIM-120 due to damage to wings so F-16 with three tanks also can only carry at most 6 BVR with dual rail and 2 short range. This is better than the others but it is also carrying dual or triple rail. So it should also drop everything when J-16 fire PL-xx?
> 
> If things work this way, the AIM-54 or R-37 and PL-xx style long range missiles is all you need. Su-27 to 35 and J-11 to J-16 cannot be beaten and all airforce should just design only heavy weight. Missiles and radar are not perfect and no one really knows each other's electronic warfare technology levels well. J-10 designers really strangely decided not to give inner pylon missiles capability because for sure they know it is useless and will need to carry fuel tank anyway.



PL-15 only has the max range if the launcher fighter flying at high altitude above 36,000ft and high speed without enemy ECM jamming. Under enemy ECM jamming especially from EF-18G, the range reduced half or more. If launcher fighter flying 400kts at sea level, expect far less effective range probably less than 25 miles just like Iraq and Serbia air engagement.

The J-10C engine thrust is similar to F-16C or slightly higher yet it can't carry 6 air to air missiles on its own without dual rack is really serious issue unless it is primarily intended for air to ground search & destroy roles which makes sense. FYI, starting from 1992 onwards, all F-16 carry AIM-120B/C on wingtips and AIM-9M/X on underwing outermost pylons. They said it improves maneuverability this way. Present day air to air missiles are so light (190lb for IR guided & 345-380lb for active radar) that there's no issue carrying 8 of them on F-16C/D/E/F/V. So you're saying heavier bombs & fuel tanks weighing over 500-1000lb each are fine for J-10C but a 380lb PL-15 would damage wings? 

Those large long range air to air missiles are meant for splashing high asset value aircrafts with large RCS and can't maneuver well. Up against smaller RCS maneuverable fighters would likely spoofed and evaded. That is why US didn't bother to retain the AIM-54C that costs US$1 million each despite F/A-18E/F could be configured to carry after F-14B/D being phased out. 

The only conclusion from this is the J-10C is made for air to ground search and destroy role, not as interceptor and its air to air role is mainly for self defense and economic air patrol. If there's enemy swarm of fighters heading towards China, J-11B, J-16, J-20B would be the primary fighters while J-10C would be second line fighters and old J-7/8 will fly as decoy fighters

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## serenity

kungfugymnast said:


> Ir
> 
> PL-15 only has the max range if the launcher fighter flying at high altitude above 36,000ft and high speed without enemy ECM jamming. Under enemy ECM jamming especially from EF-18G, the range reduced half or more. If launcher fighter flying 400kts at sea level, expect far less effective range probably less than 25 miles just like Iraq and Serbia air engagement.
> 
> The J-10C engine thrust is similar to F-16C or slightly higher yet it can't carry 6 air to air missiles on its own without dual rack is really serious issue unless it is primarily intended for air to ground search & destroy roles which makes sense. FYI, starting from 1992 onwards, all F-16 carry AIM-120B/C on wingtips and AIM-9M/X on underwing outermost pylons. They said it improves maneuverability this way. Present day air to air missiles are so light (190lb for IR guided & 345-380lb for active radar) that there's no issue carrying 8 of them on F-16C/D/E/F/V. So you're saying heavier bombs & fuel tanks weighing over 500-1000lb each are fine for J-10C but a 380lb PL-15 would damage wings?



Yes I know F-16 can carry AIM-120 on wingtip rail but actually the performance is enhanced by carrying AIM-9 not AIM-120. AIM-120 on wingtip has damaged F-16 in past. I cannot remember where I have read that though. Of course they are still capable of doing this if situation requires.

When did I say carrying fuel tanks weighing 1000lb damage wings more than PL-15? Please remember which points we are talking about! Do you see 1000lb fuel tank on last pylon? The damage I was talking about was using last pylon for BVR missile instead of short range. J-10 always uses last pylon for short range missile because heavier BVR missile will likely cause damages to wing.

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## serenity

UKBengali said:


> This is off-topic but to inform:
> 
> 1. UK is developing even more advanced AESA radar(ECR 2) to upgrade at least some of it’s Eurofighters from 2025 onwards. This tech will be used to build the Tempest radar.
> 
> 2. Italy and Sweden are already working with UK on Tempest and chances are high that they will end up being full partners and buying the plane as neither has the tech or the money to go it alone.
> 
> 3. There are credible reports that UK intends to slash the number of F-35s it intends to buy from 138 to 70 and so freeing up 10 billion US dollars to pour into developing the Tempest.
> 
> UK will even build Tempest by itself if it has to as it will want to save it’s aerospace industry - the best outside the US in the world.
> 
> PS - Do you know that UK designs and builds the VTOL section of the F-35 engine, the whole of the rear fuselage, tail planes, fins and the electronic warfare system, among other parts. It also designed and built 40% of the 80% complete backup engine for F-35 with GE.
> It is the only peer to the US in aerospace tech and Airbus needs it’s engine and wing tech to compete with Boeing.



1. This is actually expected. My point is before to compare Rafale development with Typhoon. There is a huge difference because major Typhoon partner countries have other things to use and spend money on. 2025 proposed for new AESA for UK's own Typhoon is expected eventually. France already upgraded their Rafale with AESA with almost 10 year gap compared to proposal and proposal never ever meet time expectations so when they say 2025 is it 2025 or possibly after 2030. Depends on security threats and many things.

Indian decided on right choice with Rafale because it is much better back in MMRCA compared to offered Typhoon. The AESA version was not ready and Typhoon partners slowed down Typhoon development. They will of course one day perform mid life upgrades for their own Typhoon.

2. I think Europe will go this way with two main 5.5 or 6 generation projects one being lead by UK and the other by France with partner nation joining. It is too expensive and difficult to totally develop by oneself so Sweden probably will join instead of doing what they did for Gripen. They probably cannot create better alternative with similar time and budget.

3. I don't think UK will cut F-35 orders. Tempest is really just still too far away and F-35 is ready and the training has been done for so many years now. Between now and Tempest equivalent service status to current F-35 is at least another 20 years by UK's own estimates of impossible timeline. Only change if Russia upgrade Su-57 and buys hundreds lol.

UK certainly has strong aerospace industry especially civilian engines. I don't think it is best outside USA anymore but that is too controversial to discuss in this thread. We can think and believe whatever we like time will show.

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## CAPRICORN-88

UKBengali said:


> J-10C should have the edge over the F-16 at high altitude engagements due to it’s canard-delta design, whereas F-16 should have the edge in low to mid altitudes.
> 
> I would think the F-35 derived APG-83 would be better than the AESA radar on the J-10C and so that may cause J-10C pilots targeting issues against Taiwanese F-16s.



_You think and you guess. 
That is not the answer we are looking for. 

Example.
When the Royal Thai Air Force defeated J-10A in their initial exercise, there was plenty of publicity given by the news presses. 

In the last 2 round, these news suddenly were inconspicuously missing. 

*Royal Thai Air Force trained in and by USA *has lost all their aerial combat in their exercises against PLAAF J-10B in their exercise 2 year in a row using their Grifen JAS-39. 
And You assumed F-16V is superior to PLAAF ever evolving J-10C.
Now rumor is Thailand is making inquiries about J-10CE and their availability.
This is enraging USA and her arm dealers as arm sales is the real reason why they are turning China the new enemy and a new cold war. 
What else can USA sells or Produce? 

Look. I came here to listen to facts. 

The hidden truth is there is a strong probability that PLAAF Air Force onboard Radar may be in fact superior to those in the USAF warplanes. 
But Chinese are modest and not braggarts like the West. They maintain their secrecy and that is why Deino is still digging like the rest of us for the real capability.

Is WS-15 ready? Is WS-10 TVC engine in mass production? Why did China place a 4th assembly line for J-20? The truth is we don't know and we are all waiting but we are not speculating. Something is brewing. _

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## Deino

*OK guys ... can we please come back to the topic aka the J-10!*

*Thai air force, J-10 vs F-35 or speculative discussions on more AAMs and dropping pylons are way off.*

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> *OK guys ... can we please come back to the topic aka the J-10!
> 
> Thai air force, J-10 vs F-35 or speculative discussions on more AAMs and dropping pylons are way off.*


Guys, did we not see @Deino's post?


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## LKJ86

J-10S








Via @央广军事 from Weixin

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## Figaro

Via *zszczhyx *





生死关头，战机避开居民区 - 解放军报 - 中国军网







www.81.cn




Below is the official report of the J-10 crash that occured on September 4, 2020 (i.e. the event that the Indians said was a Taiwanese shoot down of a Chinese Su-35).

"Bird strike at low altitude. Wang Jiandong, a pilot of an Air Force brigade in the Southern War Zone, calmly and accurately placed ground damage to a minimum." "Follow-up investigation confirmed that the accident happened in the take-off rise, the engine was hit by birds caused by air parking. According to the comprehensive assessment of experts, Wang Jiandong avoided residential areas three times in 37 seconds, and a series of calm and accurate landing places minimized ground damage and did not cause casualties."

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## LKJ86

J-10SH




Via @东部战区 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Figaro said:


> Via *zszczhyx *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 生死关头，战机避开居民区 - 解放军报 - 中国军网
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.81.cn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Below is the official report of the J-10 crash that occured on September 4, 2020 (i.e. the event that the Indians said was a Taiwanese shoot down of a Chinese Su-35).
> 
> "Bird strike at low altitude. Wang Jiandong, a pilot of an Air Force brigade in the Southern War Zone, calmly and accurately placed ground damage to a minimum." "Follow-up investigation confirmed that the accident happened in the take-off rise, the engine was hit by birds caused by air parking. According to the comprehensive assessment of experts, Wang Jiandong avoided residential areas three times in 37 seconds, and a series of calm and accurate landing places minimized ground damage and did not cause casualties."







Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## kungfugymnast

Figaro said:


> Via *zszczhyx *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 生死关头，战机避开居民区 - 解放军报 - 中国军网
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.81.cn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Below is the official report of the J-10 crash that occured on September 4, 2020 (i.e. the event that the Indians said was a Taiwanese shoot down of a Chinese Su-35).
> 
> "Bird strike at low altitude. Wang Jiandong, a pilot of an Air Force brigade in the Southern War Zone, calmly and accurately placed ground damage to a minimum." "Follow-up investigation confirmed that the accident happened in the take-off rise, the engine was hit by birds caused by air parking. According to the comprehensive assessment of experts, Wang Jiandong avoided residential areas three times in 37 seconds, and a series of calm and accurate landing places minimized ground damage and did not cause casualties."



Good you finally posted the news. Taiwanese been poking fun at this earlier on news articles posted J-20 photo but mentioned most likely Su-35 which is illogical coz it has 2 engines. Based on prescription, it should be single engine fighter. Before the world could laugh, another F-35 crash landed in Eglin airbase the 2nd time but the authority tried to put blame on pilot error rather than technical that caused the plane crashed.


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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S



















Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Old pic

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## LKJ86



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## Rafael

^ can you translate?


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## LKJ86

Rafael said:


> ^ can you translate?


Maybe J-10's "new variant" is coming...

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> Maybe J-10's "new variant" is coming...




Any info when? ... and could it be simply a dedicated export variant for Pakistan?


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Any info when? ... and could it be simply a dedicated export variant for Pakistan?


More advanced variant...

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> More advanced variant...




So the long rumoured J-10D? ... or what I'm much more eagerly wait for is a dedicated twin-seater based on the J-10C. IMO this one would be a truly magnificent fighter.

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## kungfugymnast

kungfugymnast said:


> Good you finally posted the news. Taiwanese been poking fun at this earlier on news articles posted J-20 photo but mentioned most likely Su-35 which is illogical coz it has 2 engines. Based on prescription, it should be single engine fighter. Before the world could laugh, another F-35 crash landed in Eglin airbase the 2nd time but the authority tried to put blame on pilot error rather than technical that caused the plane crashed.








Found on YouTube copy paste video posted by hongkong user. The 1 who witnessed the crash in first video said an aircraft has crashed, the lady asked what aircraft then the guy replied fighter jet. Lady asked where, he said the field there


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## Figaro

Deino said:


> So the long rumoured J-10D? ... or what I'm much more eagerly wait for is a dedicated twin-seater based on the J-10C. IMO this one would be a truly magnificent fighter.


Probably the "5th generation" J-10 variant Pupu mentioned earlier in July

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## ILC

Figaro said:


> Probably the "5th generation" J-10 variant Pupu mentioned earlier in July


Actually semi stealth J-10 wouldn't be a bad idea. PLAN would go with J-35 and maybe even new J-10 and PLAAF with J-20 and the new J-10.


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## vi-va

Deino said:


> So the long rumoured J-10D? ... or what I'm much more eagerly wait for is a dedicated twin-seater based on the J-10C. IMO this one would be a truly magnificent fighter.


no need, I think. two seat fighter is less and less needed in future. I don't think PLA will spent resource on 2 seat J-10 when they already have J-20.
I would rather relocate those resource to 2 seat J-20 which is more needed. 
One of the future air dominance may be 2 seat manned fighter with unmanned fighters. The back seat pilot is unmanned fighter controller.

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## CIA Mole

Is it possible to apply ws 15 to j10 without too much work?


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## Brainsucker

CIA Mole said:


> Is it possible to apply ws 15 to j10 without too much work?



What do you mean with "without too much work?"


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## CIA Mole

Brainsucker said:


> What do you mean with "without too much work?"



Like swapping WS-10 for Ws-15 on the J20's


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## Figaro

CIA Mole said:


> Is it possible to apply ws 15 to j10 without too much work?


It is possible but CAC must also make the J-10s have other 5th generation features such as internal weapons bays, RCS reduction measures, in order to make such a huge engine change "worth it". The intakes of the J-10 would have to undergo a significant modification I imagine.

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## Deino

Figaro said:


> It is possible but CAC must also make the J-10s have other 5th generation features such as internal weapons bays, RCS reduction measures, in order to make such a huge engine change "worth it". The intakes of the J-10 would have to undergo a significant modification I imagine.




And sorry again to ruin the party... that's impossible. You cannot add weapon bays to the J-10. Otherwise it would be more or less a new fighter.

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## Figaro

Deino said:


> And sorry again to ruin the party... that's impossible. You cannot add weapon bays to the J-10. Otherwise it would be more or less a new fighter.


I meant make a new fighter on the basis of the J-10

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## Deino

Figaro said:


> I meant make a new fighter on the basis of the J-10




But that is then no longer a "fighter on the basis of the J-10"

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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> But that is then no longer a "fighter on the basis of the J-10"


J-20 used to be called J-10's "dual-engine version".

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## LKJ86

J-10 vs Su-30MKK


























Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## Figaro

LKJ86 said:


> J-10 vs Su-30MKK
> View attachment 679068
> View attachment 679069
> View attachment 679070
> View attachment 679071
> View attachment 679072
> View attachment 679073
> View attachment 679075
> View attachment 679076
> 
> Via @南部空军 from Weixin


Please summarize in English


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## Deino

What do you think: just a deployment or a a new permanent J-10-brigade? At least it could explain the missing Batch 4/5 J-10Cs we've seen thru 2019/20 without a new unit confirmed


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1316293472740139010

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## LKJ86

J-10S





Via @空军新闻 from Weixin


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## JSCh

*PLA pilot parachutes to safety after bird strike*
Oct 17, 2020
CGTN

A Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force pilot had to bail out of his plane and parachute to safety after two birds struck the aircraft, causing the engine to shut down. 

The black box recovered from the crash showed that the pilot swerved away from residential areas several times in the last 37 seconds of the flight. He ejected only three seconds before the aircraft crashed.

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## Death_Angels

J-10 Can it handle the F-16? With which model


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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10SH































Via @东海舰队发布 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S
















Via 解放军画报

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## j20blackdragon

Deino said:


> And sorry again to ruin the party... that's impossible. You cannot add weapon bays to the J-10. Otherwise it would be more or less a new fighter.



A semi-stealth J-10D with missiles stored in an "enclosed weapons pod" would not require any internal weapons bays at all.














If the F-15 Silent Eagle can be considered a "stealth" aircraft according to Boeing, so could this.

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## Scorpiooo

Figaro said:


> Probably the "5th generation" J-10 variant Pupu mentioned earlier in July


J10D = semi stealth as rumored


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## Figaro

Death_Angels said:


> J-10 Can it handle the F-16? With which model


Latest J-10C is probably in the same category of the F-16 Block 70/72.

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## CIA Mole

j20blackdragon said:


> A semi-stealth J-10D with missiles stored in an "enclosed weapons pod" would not require any internal weapons bays at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the F-15 Silent Eagle can be considered a "stealth" aircraft according to Boeing, so could this.





Why bother with these when consider China's potential industrial capacity, it can eventually pump out J35's and J20's and H20's and whatever else they come up with


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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via @央广军事 from Weixin

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## CIA Mole

Is J10C pretty much end goal J10?


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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S





























Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Figaro

CIA Mole said:


> Is J10C pretty much end goal J10?


No


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## LKJ86

J-10S



















Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S







Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10C "060X"

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C "060X"
> View attachment 684664




So in fact the first Batch 06 J-10C?


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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## Pampa

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 685520
> View attachment 685521
> View attachment 685522


HCS is now in service...

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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 13 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo













Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Path-Finder

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 685520
> View attachment 685521
> View attachment 685522


any info on the HMCS?


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## Nomad40

are the rumors true about Pakistan getting 30 j-10's ?


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Rumors are we are getting 50 C models, with urgent delivery of 30 of them!

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## alphapak

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> are the rumors true about Pakistan getting 30 j-10's ?



If Pak does go for J10's then they should set up a production line in Pak and make atleast
150 of them.

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## Nomad40

alphapak said:


> If Pak does go for J10's then they should set up a production line in Pak and make atleast
> 150 of them.


not really Read my post - on my crude analysis about the significance of J-10, this was a couple of months back.



Hello @Akh1112 , Jf-17 has its own enabled features for the Pakistan air force. The J-10c platform may not be the requirement of the PAF as we have F-16s and JFT blk 3 is in the production line and as you stated the Jf-17 block 3 will be ably to do what ever is known to us, that the J-10 can.

It is a very common fact that: accurate information about eastern equipment is not easily accessible if it is accessible at all.

Now I see your concern about the Anti ship role but I can assure that over the years the Pakistan navy has built its air arm and naval fleet to take care of those encounters.

PN has a dedicated anti ship squadron by the PAF and those planes ar'nt going anywhere till the next 2-3 elections. + jf-17 can full fill the anti ship role

Well right now we are discussing about the (AIR SUPERIORITY ROLE) and that is where the J-10C comes in.

Is J-10c a A/S type air craft? no not really but it can adopt to the role like the block 52.

*What advantage does the j-10 give us over the jf-17?

1. bigger engine with higher thrust

2. better maneuverability

3. 4 additional hard points (wet plumb and outboard sensor capability)= better survival rate and endurance

4. better thrust ratio will allow you to climb higher and go faster (Extremely Important in BVR)*

Like the F7-pg purchase The J-10 can be cheaper stop gap solution.

J-10 in my opinion has a better survival rate than the Jf-17 in independent fighting role.

PAF does not require a large number of J-10 just a couple, To come and support the Jf-17 so the JF can actually go and do what it needs to do.

2 full squadrons of 16 planes are enough to stop the gap AND that is of-course not going to happen because idk.

J-10 can be stop gap measure until we get a real AS fighter.

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## Beast

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> not really Read my post - on my crude analysis about the significance of J-10, this was a couple of months back.
> 
> 
> 
> Hello @Akh1112
> 
> *What advantage does the j-10 give us over the jf-17?
> 
> 1. bigger engine with higher thrust
> 
> 2. better maneuverability
> 
> 3. 4 additional hard points (wet plumb and outboard sensor capability)= better survival rate and endurance
> 
> 4. better thrust ratio will allow you to climb higher and go faster (Extremely Important in BVR)*



-Bigger nose cone that house a more capable AESA

-far superior aerodyamic that ensure better survivability in dogfight presume the pilot skill is the same.

-better thrust to weight ratio that ensure higher cruising speed

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## LKJ86

Beast said:


> -Bigger nose cone that house a more capable AESA
> 
> -far superior aerodyamic that ensure better survivability in dogfight presume the pilot skill is the same.
> 
> -better thrust to weight ratio that ensure higher cruising speed


IMO, the key point is that PAF can get J-10C from PLAAF directly in an emergency, if needed.
It is the same to Z-10 and Type 054A.

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## Nomad40

LKJ86 said:


> IMO, the key point is that PAF can get J-10C from PLAAF directly in an emergency, if needed.
> It is the same to Z-10 and Type 054A.


IMO that emergency will soon be exploited by the actions of set statistic. 


But what do you say about the rumor of PAF receiving 30 J-10s?


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## UKBengali

LKJ86 said:


> IMO, the key point is that PAF can get J-10C from PLAAF directly in an emergency, if needed.
> It is the same to Z-10 and Type 054A.




PAF cannot fly the J-10C and so any emergency supplies would be useless.

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## siegecrossbow

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> IMO that emergency will soon be exploited by the actions of set statistic.
> 
> 
> But what do you say about the rumor of PAF receiving 30 J-10s?



I read about the same rumor on CJDBY but it looks like they were quoting an India source. The number they gave is 30 for the initial emergency purchase and a total of fifty aircraft.



https://lt.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2664573&extra=page%3D1

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## juj06750

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> are the rumors true about Pakistan getting 30 j-10's ?





FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Rumors are we are getting 50 C models, with urgent delivery of 30 of them!


yes, pakistan recently trying J10 against Indian rafale, but again NO deal expected;
china has strongly asked pakistan to pay in CASH for J10 (at least $40M each) since 2008;
since then pakistan has reportedly rejected such deal; currently pakistan is in economic crisis and has no money; again eventually NO deal expected


----------



## GriffinsRule

I am actually curious to know how many J-10C does China even has itself (not counting the J-10As with structural issues and not in production anyways).
We have no idea how many they are even able to produce for themselves to meet the demands of PLAAF. Lots of pictures don't show serial numbers. Any Chinese members here care to chip in? How many squadrons of J-10C are active and what the annual production is like?


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## LKJ86

GriffinsRule said:


> I am actually curious to know how many J-10C does China even has itself (not counting the J-10As with structural issues and not in production anyways).


About 200 now.


UKBengali said:


> PAF cannot fly the J-10C and so any emergency supplies would be useless.


I mean after PAF has J-10C already.

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## GriffinsRule

LKJ86 said:


> About 200 now.
> 
> I mean after PAF has J-10C already.


200 in how many squadron and what is the annual production rate?

Is this site more or less up to date?





Orbats







www.scramble.nl


----------



## UKBengali

LKJ86 said:


> I mean after PAF has J-10C already.



OK, got it.


----------



## python-000

LKJ86 said:


> About 200 now.
> 
> I mean after PAF has J-10C already.


Hi LKJ86 bro, you mean PAF already get J-10C in his inventory...!!!


----------



## LKJ86

python-000 said:


> Hi LKJ86 bro, you mean PAF already get J-10C in his inventory...!!!


No idea.


----------



## Scorpiooo

What are the chances here that J10C variant is customized with PAF specification as in Past J7 PG etc ... It can be J10x variant specifically for PAF i.e TVC, low visibility coating , Link 17 so on


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## Ali_Baba

LKJ86 said:


> About 200 now.



That is quite a low number? Why so low? What is the issue. You would have thought it would have become the mainstream fighter for China given its capabilities etc.


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## LKJ86

Ali_Baba said:


> That is quite a low number? Why so low? What is the issue.


J-10C began to serve in PLAAF in about 2015, and you can estimate its production rate.




Ali_Baba said:


> You would have thought it would have become the mainstream fighter for China given its capabilities etc.


There are J-10C, J-15, J-16, and J-20 in production now. J-10C can be one of the mainstream fighters for China.

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## lcloo

Ali_Baba said:


> That is quite a low number? Why so low? What is the issue. You would have thought it would have become the mainstream fighter for China given its capabilities etc.


The main attention is now on J20 and J16. J10C's production will not be increased substantially, and 200 plus jets in 5 years is not a small number, considering China is also making other jet fighters, bombers, transport jets and electronic warfare planes etc. at the same time.

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## ILC

And also there are many J-10B, idk it was about 70?


----------



## LKJ86

Two J-10Cs *vs.* two J-16s

















Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## Scorpiooo

Whats is unit cost of J10C


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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> Two J-10Cs *vs.* two J-16s
> View attachment 687235
> View attachment 687236
> View attachment 687237
> View attachment 687238
> View attachment 687239
> 
> Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo







Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## gypgypgyp

Ali_Baba said:


> That is quite a low number? Why so low? What is the issue. You would have thought it would have become the mainstream fighter for China given its capabilities etc.




PLAAF used to get 1 squad J-10, approximately 28-30 unit per yeasr. antually all J-10 family was produce at this rate since very beginning of service.

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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> Two J-10Cs *vs.* two J-16s
> View attachment 687235
> View attachment 687236
> View attachment 687237
> View attachment 687238
> View attachment 687239
> 
> Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo





LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 687568
> 
> Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## Scorpiooo

How many hardpoints are in actual use of J10 that have been evidenced ?
Not counting on cliam of 11


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## Deino

Scorpiooo said:


> How many hardpoints are in actual use of J10 that have been evidenced ?
> Not counting on cliam of 11



All ... three on each wing, one centerline and four fuselage/intake pylons = 11

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## LKJ86

11 hardpoints

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## Scorpiooo

Deino said:


> All ... three on each wing, one centerline and four fuselage/intake pylons = 11


Thanks sir for reply... mostly see using 8 to 9 points


LKJ86 said:


> 11 hardpoints
> View attachment 688322


Thanks sir for sharing, but this is test module do see this 11 configuration on actual deployed fighter in PLAAF


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## LKJ86

J-10A

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S













Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @摄影人王正坤 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH

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## LKJ86



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## Aryeih Leib

Does j 10 have Hmd + Aesa ?
@LKJ86


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## siegecrossbow

Aryeih Leib said:


> Does j 10 have Hmd + Aesa ?
> @LKJ86



The C variant has both.

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## Aryeih Leib

Does j 10 have Hmd + Aesa ?
@LKJ86


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## LKJ86

Aryeih Leib said:


> Does j 10 have Hmd + Aesa ?
> @LKJ86


Why not?

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## siegecrossbow

Fighters I


J-11bg




chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 691224
> View attachment 691225




What's the story?


----------



## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> What's the story?



This fella is the chief designer of J-10C and J-10B TVC and worked as vice designer on the J-20, JF-17, and other CAC projects. Just an article commending his 30 years of service.

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## Aryeih Leib

Range ?


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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via 余红春

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via @weapon-肖宁 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10S




Via https://weibo.com/tv/show/1034:4578528117588029?from=old_pc_videoshow

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86



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## Daniel808



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## samsara

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 691224
> View attachment 691225


*Wang Haifeng, chief designer of Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute*

*"National Advanced Worker"*






On the morning of November 24th, 2020 the National Commendation Conference for Model Workers and Advanced Workers was held in the Great Hall of the People in Beijing, attended by President Xi Jinping. *Wang Haifeng* was one of the select few across the nation who were awarded the title of *"National Advanced Workers"*.





_Wang Haifeng 王海峰、the chief designer of Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (CADI) won the nation's highest commendation as a "National Advanced Worker" “全国先进工作者”_

Wang Haifeng received a bachelor's degree in flight mechanics from *Northwestern Polytechnical University* in 1984 and a doctorate in transportation planning and management also from Northwestern Polytechnical University in 2005. He is the chief designer of Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (CADI) of Aviation Industry.

*Wang Haifeng's Works

For more than 30 years*, he has been engaged in the design, development and pre-research of combat aircraft in the front line of scientific research. He has served as the chief engineer of J-10C, the chief engineer of J-10B thrust vector flight demonstration and verification project, and the deputy chief engineer of J-20, J-10 series aircraft and Xiaolong series aircraft (JF-17 Thunder). He also presided over a number of key pre-research projects for the future development of the 13th Five Year Plan, including the flight verification project of thrust vector technology and a certain combined power flight verification project, involving the integration and intersection of multiple disciplines such as aircraft design, test technology, information technology, system engineering and computer software. He has made outstanding contributions in the aspects of aircraft overall, aerodynamics, flight quality and control law, flight simulation, flight test, aircraft life-cycle technical status management, comprehensive support, fault prediction and aircraft health management, independent support system and future innovation and pre-research development, etc., and has made systematic contributions to China's aviation equipment development and aviation science and technology development.

*The National Model Workers and Advanced Workers are selected every five years. It is the highest commendation and encouragement for the outstanding workers in all walks of life and fronts across the country.* It aims to further promote the spirit of model workers and labor in the whole society. The spirit of craftsmanship is the highest honor for the majority of workers. The National Model Workers and Advanced Workers who have been commended this time are the outstanding representatives of the working people in all walks of life, and they have created extraordinary achievements in ordinary positions. Altogether in the aviation industry there were eleven National Model Workers and two Advanced Workers commended this time.

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## Green shirt123



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## siegecrossbow

LKJ86 said:


>



The young pilot looks distractingly similar to Xuanzang from Journey to the West.

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## LKJ86

J-10C

























Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-10AH with PL-10




Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C























Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Deino

J-10C Batch 02 no. 76 spotted!

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## CIA Mole

Deino said:


> J-10C Batch 02 no. 76 spotted!
> 
> View attachment 696338


So how many of each j10’s are there


----------



## Deino

CIA Mole said:


> So how many of each j10’s are there




Good question ... in my calculation at least 56 J-10B and about 200+ J-10C.

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> J-10C Batch 02 no. 76 spotted!
> 
> View attachment 696338



PLA censors thought that the serial was safe since it was low visible on top of being tiny. They obviously underestimated Deino’s resourcefulness.

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## ZeEa5KPul

Deino said:


> J-10C Batch 02 no. 76 spotted!
> 
> View attachment 696338


Stop it! Your autistic counting is going to get the flow of pictures curtailed even more than it already is!!


----------



## Deino

ZeEa5KPul said:


> Stop it! Your autistic counting is going to get the flow of pictures curtailed even more than it already is!!




What? Do you really think only since there is a strange German counting PLA aircraft numbers, anyone in the PLA cares?

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S




Via www.81.cn

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## ZeEa5KPul

Deino said:


> What? Do you really think only since there is a strange German counting PLA aircraft numbers, anyone in the PLA cares?


When you publish it, yeah!


----------



## Deino



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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S

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## Deino

A PLAAF J-10B spotting the new low-visibility markings.

Even if the new markings certainly accomplished their mission to hide the unit's identity, it looks a bit like 661xx and as such could nicely fit to 6617x from the 67th Air Brigade. 😉

(Image by zhang81zhang via haohanfw.com)

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## LKJ86

J-10S



















Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## CIA Mole

Will they continue to upgrade the engine on J10? maybe with ws15?


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## serenity

CIA Mole said:


> Will they continue to upgrade the engine on J10? maybe with ws15?



No way it's too expensive for backup fighter. WS-15 will be similar to WS-10A for many years which means demand is much greater than supply and of course demand by J-20 rather than J-10. Of course there is also problem of fitting and size. Every weight will be different and then whole flight control require a new software.

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## ziaulislam

Deino said:


> Good question ... in my calculation at least 56 J-10B and about 200+ J-10C.


So 500 A,B,Cs ?? Or more?


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## serenity

ziaulislam said:


> So 500 A,B,Cs ?? Or more?



Less than 500 of total produced J-10 according to these guesses but about 500 now with nearly half as J-10C.


----------



## mdmm

I learned from resources that one hundred Pakistani pilots were trained to fly J-10 jet fighters in year 2020.
Will they get a job in China PLA or in other countries ?

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## LKJ86

serenity said:


> Less than 500 of total produced J-10 according to these guesses








Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions


500th J-10



defence.pk

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## Windjammer



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## CIA Mole

serenity said:


> No way it's too expensive for backup fighter. WS-15 will be similar to WS-10A for many years which means demand is much greater than supply and of course demand by J-20 rather than J-10. Of course there is also problem of fitting and size. Every weight will be different and then whole flight control require a new software.



Where is China’s jet engine bottleneck considering its fame for industrial capacity?

Materials? labor? Quality?


----------



## Deino

ziaulislam said:


> So 500 A,B,Cs ?? Or more?




By my calculation based on the number of construction numbers, their dates spotted first and units confirmed there are about 240 A, an unknown number (maybe 80-120) of AS (at least up to batch 03 with batch 02 and 03 close to 40 aircraft), about 56 J-10B and at least about +200 J-10C 

So in summary I think it's save to say there are 

240 J-10A
100 J-10AS
56 J-10B
+ 200 J-10C
-----------------
596 J-10s of all variants


mdmm said:


> I learned from resources that one hundred Pakistani pilots were trained to fly J-10 jet fighters in year 2020.
> Will they get a job in China PLA or in other countries ?




May I ask what are these sources? Give the fact that we heard so much since spring this year concerning "Pakistan and J-10" and so far none of these sometimes more than fantastic news came out as real. As such I would like to rate myself if these "sources" are credible and reliable.

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## mdmm

Hi Deino.
I requested for confirmation that this is a true news or false ?


----------



## Deino

mdmm said:


> Hi Deino.
> I requested for confirmation that this is a true news or false ?




ok ... I read your post as if you think it si true!

IMO as long as I did not read anything official or get an image nothing is true.


----------



## mdmm

Kindly us me know, how many of J-10C fighters jet are participating in current Pakistan-China Joint Air Force Exercise "Shaheen-IX 2020" inside southern Pakistan areas ??


----------



## Deino

mdmm said:


> Kindly us me know, how many of J-10C fighters jet are participating in current Pakistan-China Joint Air Force Exercise "Shaheen-IX 2020" inside southern Pakistan areas ??




4


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## TNT

Is there a two seat version of J10? I have never seen one.


----------



## Deino

TNT said:


> Is there a two seat version of J10? I have never seen one.




Really??

These are the original prototypes ... and several operatiional one: The J-10SY for the Ba Yi), a J-10SH or ASH for the Naval Aviation and a regular J-10AS in PLAAF service. However there is not a twim-seater of the latest J-10B/C available.

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## kungfugymnast

CIA Mole said:


> Where is China’s jet engine bottleneck considering its fame for industrial capacity?
> 
> Materials? labor? Quality?



China requires more long range multi-role fighters for offensive operations more than home defense J-10C. That's the only bottleneck. J-16, J-15B, J-20B they all have combat radius 900 miles or higher ideal for defending China borders taking the fight further out away from shores.

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Really??
> 
> These are the original prototypes ... and several operatiional one: The J-10SY for the Ba Yi), a J-10SH or ASH for the Naval Aviation and a regular J-10AS in PLAAF service. However there is not a twim-seater of the latest J-10B/C available.
> 
> View attachment 699137
> View attachment 699141
> View attachment 699142
> View attachment 699143



There probably won't be twin seater based J-10C until numbers of existing J-10AS/ASH trainers are no longer fit to fly requiring replacement. Or when more combat trainers required. If J-10A based twin seat trainers cheaper and convenient to build, then Chengdu scrap the plan for J-10C based twin seater. Export market demand would determine the twinseat variant as well. 

US F-16D aren't many sort of rare in US inventory despite the USAF flown F-16 mostly in air to ground sorties. It is mainly because they are small and fly in high risk ground threat area in search and destroy, having just 1 pilot is adequate for small fighter with short combat radius below 300nm. Only Israeli and Singapore Air Force favors twinseat F-16D to safeguard their small borders conducting air strikes. Apart from these 2 countries, Turkish, NATO operators didn't emphasize much on twinseat F-16D as well. Newer F-16F didn't find much sales. 

PLAAF & PLAN look into these factors and retain the twinseat J-10 as trainers


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## LKJ86

J-10C





Via www.81.cn

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## Daniel808

*J-10C *

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## LKJ86

J-9VI-2







Via 中国航空报

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## LKJ86

J-10C "shot down" J-16

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## siegecrossbow

LKJ86 said:


> J-9VI-2
> View attachment 700109
> View attachment 700110
> 
> Via 中国航空报



J-9VI-2 had a sort of rebirth via J-20.


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## LKJ86

siegecrossbow said:


> J-9VI-2 had a sort of rebirth via J-20.


And J-9VI-1 to J-10.

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## ACE OF HEARTS

LKJ86 said:


> And J-9VI-1 to J-10.


How would you compare the RCS of J-10 C as compared to an F 16 Block 70?


----------



## Daniel808

ACE OF HEARTS said:


> How would you compare the RCS of J-10 C as compared to an F 16 Block 70?



I don't know about other aspect. It will need deep study & analysis to determine that.
But What I know, J-10B/C already Equipped with DSIs INTAKE. Meanwhile, F-16 Block 70 not.

*DSIs on J-10 B/C





DSIs itself have many benefits in reducing RCS of the Aircraft, and used not only on J-10 B/C.
But also with other 5th Gen Stealth Aircraft like China's J-20 & J-31/35, and US F-35.*

DSIs improve the aircraft's very-low-observable characteristics by eliminating radar reflections between the diverter and the aircraft's skin. Additionally, the "bump" surface reduces the engine's exposure to radar, significantly reducing a strong source of radar reflection, because they provide an additional shielding of engine fans against radar waves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diverterless_supersonic_inlet

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## LKJ86

SAC's J-13 and the chief designer of J-11B and J-15

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## siegecrossbow

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C "shot down" J-16
> View attachment 700200
> View attachment 700201
> View attachment 700202
> View attachment 700203
> View attachment 700204



Here is the video.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10A




Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-10S




Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10A














Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## jupiter2007

What is the annual production rate of J-10C 
fighter aircraft?


----------



## LKJ86

Via 解放军画报

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## LKJ86

J-10B




Via 罗嵘

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-10B
> View attachment 704717
> 
> Via 罗嵘




Wow !

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## LKJ86

J10C0419




Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> J-10B
> View attachment 704717
> 
> Via 罗嵘

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 704902




Well a great image, but I cannot find the link at eng.chinamil.com.cn/foucs/index.htm?


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## LKJ86

Deino said:


> Well a great image, but I cannot find the link at eng.chinamil.com.cn/foucs/index.htm?








Military training session for 2021 kicks off - China Military


Troops of a combined brigade under the PLA 82nd Group Army assemble at the training range on Jan. 4, 2021.




eng.chinamil.com.cn

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## m52k85

Deino said:


> Wow !
> 
> View attachment 704726


Can you point out what is wow about the 2 images?


----------



## Deino

m52k85 said:


> Can you point out what is wow about the 2 images?




Left a J-10B and right a J-10C both in low visibility markings, but with different ones.


----------



## lcloo

Deino said:


> Left a J-10B and right a J-10C both in low visibility markings, but with different ones.


Which means if we see any new photo of J10C and J10B with normal visible painted numbers, then they probably are a few months old.

Would they do the same to other aircraft like J11A/B and JH7A? KIV.

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## LKJ86

J-10S










Via @学习军团 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10A

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## Windjammer



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## Deino

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 706801




The good old 131st Air Brigade when the eagle was still colurful.

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S

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## Gomig-21

Deino said:


> The good old 131st Air Brigade when the eagle was still colurful.
> 
> View attachment 706804
> 
> 
> View attachment 706803



Haha, that could use a little more color for sure. 
It's quite impressive how the Chinese engineers have mastered the DSI intake and use it on all their indigenous aircraft.

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> The good old 131st Air Brigade when the eagle was still colurful.
> 
> View attachment 706804
> 
> 
> View attachment 706803



I don’t like it. Ever since they made it low visible it looks like the angry bird cousin of the Seattle Seahawks logo.

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## kungfugymnast

siegecrossbow said:


> I don’t like it. Ever since they made it low visible it looks like the angry bird cousin of the Seattle Seahawks logo.
> 
> View attachment 706854



Guess PLAAF will have to change the eagle logo.


----------



## Figaro

Huge news from a reliable insider 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352746056782635008

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## Path-Finder

Figaro said:


> Huge news from a reliable insider
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352746056782635008


If wishes were horses.

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## Deino

Figaro said:


> Huge news from a reliable insider
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352746056782635008




And again that nasty German: "*IF LEGIT*"! 😉

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## Path-Finder

Deino said:


> And again that nasty German: "*IF LEGIT*"! 😉


you mean a '_smug_' German!


----------



## Deino

Path-Finder said:


> you mean a '_smug_' German!




Actually I don't know why asking critical questions are rated as '_smug_' ?

Why is the question for credibility and for reliable sources considered complacent?
In my opinion, critical thinking - especially when it comes to journalism - should always be fact-based and rated the standard rather than just being based on desires and dreams that are all too often hyped by fanboys.

I know some don't like me and probably have all reasons for this, but maybe this is the reason for my reputation I have in the social community outside?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I wish folks could see it from @Deino's perspective ...

We see countless posts about the PAF getting things from random places -- including that weird acid trip about J-15s, JH-7s, and F-16s. So, he has every right to question information. Unless we hear it officially, people have every right to question the info. 

Yes, Pakistan has a penchant for surprising folks with sudden contract announcements (e.g., Type 054A/P, VT4, etc), but that comes in the backdrop of dozens of false reports from various people.

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## Path-Finder

Deino said:


> Actually I don't know why asking critical questions are rated as '_smug_' ?
> 
> Why is the question for credibility and for reliable sources considered complacent?
> In my opinion, critical thinking - especially when it comes to journalism - should always be fact-based and rated the standard rather than just being based on desires and dreams that are all too often hyped by fanboys.
> 
> I know some don't like me and probably have all reasons for this, but maybe this is the reason for my reputation I have in the social community outside?


Damn bro, I was not insulting you or taking the mickey. My apologies.

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## ILC

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352956996862025729
??
The end of J-10? Or a new variant.


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## Deino

Path-Finder said:


> Damn bro, I was not insulting you or taking the mickey. My apologies.




Sorry again if I misunderstood your reply and even more if you rated mine as an offensive return. I was only unsure, since in Germany the term "smug" or "selbstgefällig" has a very negative connotation in the meaning of "hochnäsig" (snooty or supercilious!)

Sorry for the misunderstanding.


ILC said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352956996862025729
> ??
> The end of J-10? Or a new variant.




Interesting news, that raises some more interesting questions?

WHY ... ? Are there any issues? Maybe related to the engines? Do they wait for a certain item or even occasion?




We know these WS-10B-powered J-10Cs are in production since mid-2019 but we haven't seen a single operational one in a PLAAF brigade yet?


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## GiantPanda

Deino said:


> Sorry again if I misunderstood your reply and even more if you rated mine as an offensive return. I was only unsure, since in Germany the term "smug" or "selbstgefällig" has a very negative connotation in the meaning of "hochnäsig" (snooty or supercilious!)
> 
> Sorry for the misunderstanding.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting news, that raises some more interesting questions?
> 
> WHY ... ? Are there any issues? Maybe related to the engines? Do they wait for a certain item or even occasion?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We know these WS-10B-powered J-10Cs are in production since mid-2019 but we haven't seen a single operational one in a PLAAF brigade yet?



It could be an issue with the engine, training or something else -- like waiting for a contract to be signed for a delivery overseas. 

The fact that there are 30 J-10Cs sitting at Chengdu means a fairly successful production run. In my opinion, a serious engine issue would have halted production at much smaller numbers before things are worked out and assembly began again.

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Sorry again if I misunderstood your reply and even more if you rated mine as an offensive return. I was only unsure, since in Germany the term "smug" or "selbstgefällig" has a very negative connotation in the meaning of "hochnäsig" (snooty or supercilious!)
> 
> Sorry for the misunderstanding.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting news, that raises some more interesting questions?
> 
> WHY ... ? Are there any issues? Maybe related to the engines? Do they wait for a certain item or even occasion?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We know these WS-10B-powered J-10Cs are in production since mid-2019 but we haven't seen *a single operational one* in a PLAAF brigade yet?



That’s not correct strictly speaking.



https://defence.pk/pdf/attachments/49eca83dgy1gmgixyfdwaj21kk0vtqc9-jpg.704802/


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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> That’s not correct strictly speaking.
> 
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/attachments/49eca83dgy1gmgixyfdwaj21kk0vtqc9-jpg.704802/




Pardon? what part?


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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Pardon? what part?



Part about WS-10 J-10 not entering operational units. I thought that 4th batch of J-10s started equipping WS-10 or am I wrong?

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## juj06750

Figaro said:


> Huge news from a reliable insider
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352746056782635008


maybe NOT; did pakistan pay in cash for J10? 🤔
such news also come over tens of years but NEVER occurred;
so far we've stongly asked pakistan to pay in cash for J10 (at least $4M each) and pakistan said NO;
let see if we really see J10 in pakistan


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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> Part about WS-10 J-10 not entering operational units. I thought that 4th batch of J-10s started equipping WS-10 or am I wrong?



Oh well, now you got me! 

To admit, I'm not sure ... the first WS-10-powered J-10C with a construction number visible was cn. 042x (the x was hidden), so *MAYBE *all Batch 04 J-10Cs are using the Taihang or - and that is what I thought but I have no image to prove it - right in the middle of that batch, they switched from AL-31FN to WS-10B? 

The next number I know is 0431 and 0440 with WS-10.


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## Path-Finder

Deino said:


> Sorry again if I misunderstood your reply and even more if you rated mine as an offensive return. I was only unsure, since in Germany the term "smug" or "selbstgefällig" has a very negative connotation in the meaning of "hochnäsig" (snooty or supercilious!)
> 
> Sorry for the misunderstanding.


Well my angle was that you are smug as in your knowledge wisdom understanding prediction elevates you slightly. alternatively you can be smug as someone who is royally pompous. 

I can understand that it was received negatively so apologies.

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## ziaulislam

juj06750 said:


> maybe NOT; did pakistan pay in cash for J10? 🤔
> such news also come over tens of years but NEVER occurred;
> so far we've stongly asked pakistan to pay in cash for J10 (at least $4M each) and pakistan said NO;
> let see if we really see J10 in pakistan


lol..pakistan doesnt has any money


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## Deino

Path-Finder said:


> Well my angle was that you are smug as in your knowledge wisdom understanding prediction elevates you slightly. alternatively you can be smug as someone who is royally pompous.
> 
> I can understand that it was received negatively so apologies.




Thanks my friend, and no offence taken.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Can someone please post some pics of J-10 A, B and C so I can get an idea of the different models?

Does the J-10 follow the block version approach or is it model based?

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## Deino

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Can someone please post some pics of J-10 A, B and C so I can get an idea of the different models?
> 
> Does the J-10 follow the block version approach or is it model based?

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Deino said:


> View attachment 709787



I assume it's A,B,C from top to bottom.

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## siegecrossbow

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> I assume it's A,B,C from top to bottom.



Yes.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S


































Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Deino

Wow 😮... I must admit when I heard the rumours in January and later read the report it sounded a bit unbelievable, but here it is: At first sight I see 27 - maybe even 28 - J-10Cs and at least 7 J-20As ... I would really love to see them larger.

via:








Follow up on the Chengdu J-10C delivery issues


Follow up on the Chengdu J-10C delivery issues Recently we revealed that deliveries of the Chengdu J-10C single engine fighter to the People's Liberation Army - Air Force (PLAAF, C...




www.scramble.nl





... and most of all those claimed J-20A for the 1st Air Brigade at Anshan. 😉

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358710115873009665

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358710115873009665



How can you tell that they are J-10C?


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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> How can you tell that they are J-10C?




I cannot, in fact those two also visible are twin seater as you can see on the longer canopy and black radomes. IMO it is however highly likely ...


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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

J-10B




Via 解放军报

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J100...














































Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Irfan Baloch

LKJ86 said:


> J-10A and J-10S
> View attachment 713504
> View attachment 713505
> View attachment 713506
> View attachment 713507
> View attachment 713508
> View attachment 713509
> View attachment 713510
> View attachment 713511
> View attachment 713512
> View attachment 713513
> View attachment 713514
> 
> Via @空军新闻 from Weixin


I wonder if we should make a J-10C thread on PAF section too?
@Windjammer @waz @Zarvan

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## Zarvan

Irfan Baloch said:


> I wonder if we should make a J-10C thread on PAF section too?
> @Windjammer @waz @Zarvan


Sir if PAF have confirmed you that we are going for them then Hell Yeah. Other wise I would like to wait for official announcement.

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## Irfan Baloch

Zarvan said:


> Sir if PAF have confirmed you that we are going for them then Hell Yeah. Other wise I would like to wait for official announcement.


thing is that many sources have told me that over hundred or so PAF personnel of all ranks and file are on a long trip to China. 
and then there are news of so many J-10Cs lining up outside the Chinese aeroplane factory.
so I thought they might come handy in bringing those PAF guys back to Pakistan. its covid after all they shouldn't be travelling together.

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## Deino

Irfan Baloch said:


> thing is that many sources have told me that over hundred or so PAF personnel of all ranks and file are on a long trip to China.
> and then there are news of so many J-10Cs lining up outside the Chinese aeroplane factory.
> so I thought they might come handy in bringing those PAF guys back to Pakistan. its covid after all they shouldn't be travelling together.



Sorry again to be cautious, but "many sources have told ..." this and that since years and nothing happened and concerning these "so many J-10Cs lining up outside the Chinese aeroplane factory", they are by all we know from the latest news gone and none went to Pakistan.

As such I would agree with @Zarvan, when we finally see a J-10C in PAF colours or either the PAF, CAC or any official source confirms this deal, then we should open a new thread.

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## Zarvan

Irfan Baloch said:


> thing is that many sources have told me that over hundred or so PAF personnel of all ranks and file are on a long trip to China.
> and then there are news of so many J-10Cs lining up outside the Chinese aeroplane factory.
> so I thought they might come handy in bringing those PAF guys back to Pakistan. its covid after all they shouldn't be travelling together.


Let's hope so Sir we need a third jet along with F 16 and our JF 17


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## Windjammer

Irfan Baloch said:


> I wonder if we should make a J-10C thread on PAF section too?
> @Windjammer @waz @Zarvan


Sir Ji,.....Engagement, Wedding and then Walima.... let's not rob the Imam performing the Nikah to make the announcement of.....Mubarak Ho......Then just watch the party.

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86

J-10C













Via @ 空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Irfan Baloch

Deino said:


> Sorry again to be cautious, but "many sources have told ..." this and that since years and nothing happened and concerning these "so many J-10Cs lining up outside the Chinese aeroplane factory", they are by all we know from the latest news gone and none went to Pakistan.
> 
> As such I would agree with @Zarvan, when we finally see a J-10C in PAF colours or either the PAF, CAC or any official source confirms this deal, then we should open a new thread.


thats what I mean so say. they are just my personal sources with a word of mouth and speculations based on {AF deputations. then there are some other related coincidences they may mean something or nothing.
.


Windjammer said:


> Sir Ji,.....Engagement, Wedding and then Walima.... let's not rob the Imam performing the Nikah to make the announcement of.....Mubarak Ho......Then just watch the party.


I am concerned about the PAF pilots returning home. it makes sense to get them individual jets due to Covid issues thats all. they can come in JF-17 but if there are other jets also parked idly outside Chinese factories then they can come "handy" too.

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## StormBreaker

Irfan Baloch said:


> thats what I mean so say. they are just my personal sources with a word of mouth and speculations based on {AF deputations. then there are some other related coincidences they may mean something or nothing.
> .
> 
> I am concerned about the PAF pilots returning home. it makes sense to get them individual jets due to Covid issues thats all. they can come in JF-17 but if there are other jets also parked idly outside Chinese factories then they can come "handy" too.


So many keyboard keys have been wasted, playing with the feelings of “Mazlooms”. You, @The Eagle , @Hodor , @kursed , @Tipu7 , Allah pooche ha ap logon ko bari fursat se.

@Zarvan aur hum jaise ahmak log bewaqoofon ki tarah intezar karte rehte hain apne karan arjun ka.

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## Zarvan

StormBreaker said:


> So many keyboard keys have been wasted, playing with the feelings of “Mazlooms”. You, @The Eagle , @Hodor , @kursed , @Tipu7 , Allah pooche ha ap logon ko bari fursat se.
> 
> @Zarvan aur hum jaise ahmak log bewaqoofon ki tarah intezar karte rehte hain apne karan arjun ka.


Hopefully the weight won't be long this time.


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## kungfugymnast

Irfan Baloch said:


> I wonder if we should make a J-10C thread on PAF section too?
> @Windjammer @waz @Zarvan



Sure, why not? Put it as J-10CE for the export variant powered by WS-10B with TVC optional to counter threat from Rafale. Will CAIC replace some of the pylons in J-10CE with air to air missiles compatible pylons? Export market version would require J-10CE for air to air roles unlike PLAAF requirements towards air to ground search & destroy. J-10CE would be best if it could carry 8 air to air missiles without twin racks to counter enemy fighters such as Rafale and F/A-18E capable of carrying 10 air to air missiles.

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## kungfugymnast

Zarvan said:


> Hopefully the weight won't be long this time.



Military marketing won't be long wait, they will come with their products for demonstration and convince PAF to buy. It's not just about making money but to get combat proven if more tea being served which would give positive reputation to CAIC. CAIC will get more potential customers if their weapons proven useful in return of supplying J-10CE to PAF at bargain price. Win win solution for both. 

J-10CE vs Rafale, the J-10CE with TVC will definitely superior in dogfight. In BVR, the J-10CE fitted with large AESA radar has the longer search and track range. J-10CE with larger internal fuel 14,000lb estimate has better combat radius than Rafale. PAF would need the J-10CE for air to air role, let's wait and see whether CAIC would make changes to pylons to fit at least 8 air to air missiles removing the ability to carry large 500gal fuel tank or 2000lb bomb underwing. The fuselage 4 pylons could be changed to missile rails for 2 more PL-12/15, total 2x PL-10E & 6x PL-12/15.

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## siegecrossbow

kungfugymnast said:


> Military marketing won't be long wait, they will come with their products for demonstration and convince PAF to buy. It's not just about making money but to get combat proven if more tea being served which would give positive reputation to CAIC. CAIC will get more potential customers if their weapons proven useful in return of supplying J-10CE to PAF at bargain price. Win win solution for both.
> 
> J-10CE vs Rafale, the J-10CE with TVC will definitely superior in dogfight. In BVR, the J-10CE fitted with large AESA radar has the longer search and track range. J-10CE with larger internal fuel 14,000lb estimate has better combat radius than Rafale. PAF would need the J-10CE for air to air role, let's wait and see whether CAIC would make changes to pylons to fit at least 8 air to air missiles removing the ability to carry large 500gal fuel tank or 2000lb bomb underwing. The fuselage 4 pylons could be changed to missile rails for 2 more PL-12/15, total 2x PL-10E & 6x PL-12/15.



J-10CE doesn't have TVC.

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## Thorough Pro

I have only heard of heavy weights and long waits 



Zarvan said:


> Hopefully the weight won't be long this time.

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## kungfugymnast

siegecrossbow said:


> J-10CE doesn't have TVC.



It depends on how much China willing to offer PAF in order to get combat proven, China's best chance to test their aerial weapons against western weapons. PAF is often at risk of IAF intrusion and attack. Both Su-30MKI & Rafale are deadly in dogfight, if PAF J-10CE fitted with TVC would give it higher chance of winning. Also PAF fighters would always be outnumbered and they'll definitely need more missiles, at least 8 on J-10CE. 

BVR missile effective range on specification at 40, 60, 80nm are achieved with launcher at high altitude and speed hitting a target flying towards shooter. In reality from US & NATO aerial combat, longest range hit was done by AIM-120C hitting an unarmed enemy transport without proper RWR at 40 miles. Engagement at sea level would greatly reduce missile range. Enemy fighter low RCS, enemy switching on ECM would reduce missile effective range further. Enemy fighters on terrain masking especially hilly mountainous ravine area would hide from detection. This explains why most of the BVR missiles were launched below 25 miles with AIM-120 & AIM-7 being launched in dogfight range. 

If enemy rafale having 10 missiles vs J-10CE with just 4-6 missiles, the Rafale would have extra missiles to waste launching 1x meteor at 40 miles then 2x at 25 miles. Don't mind wasting super expensive meteor or US$380k AIM-120C7 as long as it could save shooter from getting killed. J-10CE if outnumbered will have to use chicken run evasive tactic before could use its missiles wisely. Active radar missiles are on semi active above 10 miles requiring shooter's radar guidance. Tracking lost if shooter perform evasive maneuver getting off radar tracking angle when enemy missile getting close first. 

 If both fighters managed to spoof incoming missiles at this point will get into visual range engagement & dogfight. The 1 with more missiles left will be at advantage while the 1 out of missile will switch to gun and hope there's no 2nd enemy fighter around.


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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> It depends on how much China willing to offer PAF in order to get combat proven, China's best chance to test their aerial weapons against western weapons. PAF is often at risk of IAF intrusion and attack. Both Su-30MKI & Rafale are deadly in dogfight, if PAF J-10CE fitted with TVC would give it higher chance of winning. Also PAF fighters would always be outnumbered and they'll definitely need more missiles, at least 8 on J-10CE.
> 
> BVR missile effective range on specification at 40, 60, 80nm are achieved with launcher at high altitude and speed hitting a target flying towards shooter. In reality from US & NATO aerial combat, longest range hit was done by AIM-120C hitting an unarmed enemy transport without proper RWR at 40 miles. Engagement at sea level would greatly reduce missile range. Enemy fighter low RCS, enemy switching on ECM would reduce missile effective range further. Enemy fighters on terrain masking especially hilly mountainous ravine area would hide from detection. This explains why most of the BVR missiles were launched below 25 miles with AIM-120 & AIM-7 being launched in dogfight range.
> 
> If enemy rafale having 10 missiles vs J-10CE with just 4-6 missiles, the Rafale would have extra missiles to waste launching 1x meteor at 40 miles then 2x at 25 miles. Don't mind wasting super expensive meteor or US$380k AIM-120C7 as long as it could save shooter from getting killed. J-10CE if outnumbered will have to use chicken run evasive tactic before could use its missiles wisely. Active radar missiles are on semi active above 10 miles requiring shooter's radar guidance. Tracking lost if shooter perform evasive maneuver getting off radar tracking angle when enemy missile getting close first.
> 
> If both fighters managed to spoof incoming missiles at this point will get into visual range engagement & dogfight. The 1 with more missiles left will be at advantage while the 1 out of missile will switch to gun and hope there's no 2nd enemy fighter around.




Can again please spare us these endless lectures your understanding of aerial combat? Thsi is the J-10 thread and as long as the PAF does not have it confirmed, I see no reason for a new thread even lesser here in this section. We already have such speculative threads in the PAF section.

But here concentrate on the J-10 in PLAAF service and not why it might be a good choice for Paksitan or its eventual benefits against the Rafale.

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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Can again please spare us these endless lectures your understanding of aerial combat? Thsi is the J-10 thread and as long as the PAF does not have it confirmed, I see no reason for a new thread even lesser here in this section. We already have such speculative threads in the PAF section.
> 
> But here concentrate on the J-10 in PLAAF service and not why it might be a good choice for Paksitan or its eventual benefits against the Rafale.



Since you're in Germany, it shouldn't be difficult for you to ask Luftwaffe's pilots that operate European, US and Russian fighters on how air to air works. They have knowledge on Tornado ADV (phasing out), EF2000, Mig-29S, EF-18G, F/A-18E and retired F-4F. Ask them, meet the real fighter pilots and you would eventually agree with me on how air to air combat, electronic warfare works. This is your assignment and if you're real military fans, I don't see the reason why you don't want to know more. Some users here don't even get such chance. CAIC stated clearly they have J-10CE for export market and they sure find out their customers preference before selling.


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## HRK

@kungfugymnast if you are specifically talking about J-10CE in Pakistan context then you are slightly wrong we do not need an aircraft with 8 A2A missiles load out [4-6 BVR and 2-4 WVR missiles] what we need is an multi role fighter which should be more orientated towards the Strike Role so IMHO _any aircraft with 2+2 A2A missiles with capability to carry +4 stand-off striking weapons will be suitable for our arising need_ to replace Mirage-III/V jets in PAF which lacks BVR capability which PAF use in strike role

So J-10C *'partially'* fulfil our needs in its current configuration even without any enhancement with TVC engine or capability to carry additional BVRs.

I hope this will end the unnecessary argument between you and @Deino about tweaking or modifying J-10 for export in reference of Pakistan Air Force.

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## LKJ86

Via @牧星人拓拔尊 from Weibo

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## siegecrossbow

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 716209
> View attachment 716210
> 
> Via @牧星人拓拔尊 from Weibo



@Deino Valentine’s Day present from the city of Shantou.

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## Path-Finder

Irfan Baloch said:


> I wonder if we should make a J-10C thread on PAF section too?
> @Windjammer @waz @Zarvan


lala what are you saying?


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## LKJ86

J-10's documentary mainly made in 2013

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## Ali_Baba

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 716209
> View attachment 716210
> 
> Via @牧星人拓拔尊 from Weibo


 
What is the point of posting such a poor quality image? What is new or unique that warrants this poor quality?


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## siegecrossbow

Ali_Baba said:


> What is the point of posting such a poor quality image? What is new or unique that warrants this poor quality?



WS-10 equipped J-10C replace J-7s in Shantou.

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## Dil Pakistan

Are these "boys" coming to PAF?


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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 716209
> View attachment 716210
> 
> Via @牧星人拓拔尊 from Weibo





siegecrossbow said:


> @Deino Valentine’s Day present from the city of Shantou.



Indeed, simply WOW ... this would solve in fact even two mysteries! First the it could confirm the former 9th Air Division, 25th Air Regiment at Shantou Northeast is still active as the 25th Air Brigade and it would finally reveal the first operational J-10C unit flying J-10C with WS-10B engines. This unit formerly flew J-7E.



PS: If it is correct what he says, then this brigade is now subordinated to the Eastern TC and no longer the STC

"情人节，给你们送个大礼[礼物]东部某航空兵旅换装10C实锤！[拳头][给力]传说已久，终于证实……至于哪个旅，大家应该想得到[嘻嘻] 注意图二发动机 "

Can anyone confirm?


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## kungfugymnast

HRK said:


> @kungfugymnast if you are specifically talking about J-10CE in Pakistan context then you are slightly wrong we do not need an aircraft with 8 A2A missiles load out [4-6 BVR and 2-4 WVR missiles] what we need is an multi role fighter which should be more orientated towards the Strike Role so IMHO _any aircraft with 2+2 A2A missiles with capability to carry +4 stand-off striking weapons will be suitable for our arising need_ to replace Mirage-III/V jets in PAF which lacks BVR capability which PAF use in strike role
> 
> So J-10C *'partially'* fulfil our needs in its current configuration even without any enhancement with TVC engine or capability to carry additional BVRs.
> 
> I hope this will end the unnecessary argument between you and @Deino about tweaking or modifying J-10 for export in reference of Pakistan Air Force.



Able to carry 6-8 air to air missiles doesn't mean it can't carry air to ground missiles and bombs. It can still carry blue arrow missiles or 500-700lb bombs on double or triple racks, single large air to ground missiles or 1000lb bombs. Don't jump to conclusion before you see the actual J-10CE caters for export market preference.

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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Able to carry 6-8 air to air missiles doesn't mean it can't carry air to ground missiles and bombs. It can still carry blue arrow missiles or 500-700lb bombs on double or triple racks, single large air to ground missiles or 1000lb bombs. Don't jump to conclusion before you see the actual J-10CE caters for export market preference.




No, it cannot at least not in the current form since the blue arrow missiles are nor certified and even less how shall a J-10 carry additional "500-700lb bombs on double or triple racks, single large air to ground missiles or 1000lb bombs" when it already carries 6-8 AAMS and the always mounted external fuel tanks??

So again it is only you against anything we've seen and expect to see, who jumps "to conclusion".


----------



## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> No, it cannot at least not in the current form since the blue arrow missiles are nor certified and even less how shall a J-10 carry additional "500-700lb bombs on double or triple racks, single large air to ground missiles or 1000lb bombs" when it already carries 6-8 AAMS and the always mounted external fuel tanks??
> 
> So again it is only you against anything we've seen and expect to see, who jumps "to conclusion".



I suggest we all wait and see how is the CAIC marketing end up with the J-10CE configuration offer to PAF. If J-10CE flying air to ground sorties, it sure won't carry 8 air to air missiles. PAF suddenly asking for J-10CE probably response to IAF purchase of Rafale & upcoming US fighters. 

US is pushing for new fighters sales to IAF recently. F/A-18E/F for navy on ski ramp take off and F-15EX for air force. The Super Hornets & F-15EX pose far more serious threats compared to Rafales. US fighters and weapons are always superior than French.


----------



## LKJ86

J10C0418

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## Deino

Interesting, since based on these images we have cn. 0418 with AL-31FN, 0419 without the exhaust visible and we have 042x - unfortunately the x isn't visible - as the first with WS-10B.
Seems as if the first half of batch 4 is using AL-31FN and the second half switched to the WS-10B.

Since cn. 0440 was the highest number seen I would assume, the change was from exactly with half of batch 4.

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via 解放军画报

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## Green shirt123



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## LKJ86

J-10B

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## LKJ86

J-10AH










Via https://weibo.com/tv/show/1034:4607115923488873?from=old_pc_videoshow

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## Ali_Baba

Very good alround visibility, very F16 like. The canards get in the way slighty, but not much. Interesting.


----------



## siegecrossbow

Ali_Baba said:


> Very good alround visibility, very F16 like. The canards get in the way slighty, but not much. Interesting.



Wonder if they are going the DAS route like they did for the J-20.


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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86

J-10C



















Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10S













Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S

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## LKJ86

*Chinese Pilot Recovers from Flight Accident Caused by Bird Strike*
A Chinese fighter jet pilot successfully returned to the sky on Tuesday, 172 days after he was severely injured in a flight accident caused by a bird strike.

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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10C and J-10S

























Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86



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## Grandy

Six of J 10C, carries two Pili 10, four Pili 15, and three auxiliary fuel tanks.

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## LKJ86

J10C0410





Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86

J-10C




























Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86

J-10 made its maiden on March 23, 1998


































Via @航空工业 and @航空工业强度所 from Weixin

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## LKJ86



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## CIA Mole

LKJ86 said:


> J-10 made its maiden on March 23, 1998
> View attachment 727028
> View attachment 727029
> View attachment 727030
> View attachment 727031
> View attachment 727033
> View attachment 727034
> View attachment 727035
> View attachment 727036
> View attachment 727037
> View attachment 727038
> View attachment 727039
> 
> Via @航空工业 and @航空工业强度所 from Weixin


what is this complex contraption?


----------



## siegecrossbow

CIA Mole said:


> what is this complex contraption?



Stress testing for static airframe. Uses to figure out G-load and other tolerance limits.

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 727893
> View attachment 727894
> View attachment 727895
> View attachment 727896
> View attachment 727897



What engine is that? WS-10A?


----------



## Deino

Tai Hai Chen said:


> What engine is that? WS-10A?




No, still an AL-31FN ... this is how the WS-10B looks like

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## LKJ86

J10C0401




Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via 解放军报

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## LKJ86

J-10B

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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH













Via @东部战区 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH




















Via @解放军报 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10B

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S













Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

J-10C and J-10S

























Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Scorpiooo

One questions from experts here, why China didn't actually try to introduce CFT on J10, they can increase there range and effectiveness.

What is the reason there not opted for this path in actual


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## siegecrossbow

Scorpiooo said:


> One questions from experts here, why China didn't actually try to introduce CFT on J10, they can increase there range and effectiveness.
> 
> What is the reason there not opted for this path in actual



I think the CAC actually did a study on this as early as 2009/2010 and decided that the increase in weight and drag is not worth the effort.


----------



## LKJ86

J10C0337




Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


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## Scorpiooo

siegecrossbow said:


> I think the CAC actually did a study on this as early as 2009/2010 and decided that the increase in weight and drag is not worth the effort.


Yes they did study, even conduct few tests, then silence, but now they are improving j10 day by day, option will solve its limitations of range

Or on the otherwise may be its airframe is not able to handle weight of CFT and remain agile


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## LKJ86

Scorpiooo said:


> Or on the otherwise may be its airframe is not able to handle weight of CFT and remain agile


USAF's F-16 also doesn't choose CFT, and it is just for export.
PLAAF makes the same choice.

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## Scorpiooo

LKJ86 said:


> USAF's F-16 also doesn't choose CFT, and it is just for export.
> PLAAF makes the same choice.


So its mean if any customers in future want, they can make changes to adjust CFTs


----------



## LKJ86

Scorpiooo said:


> So its mean if any customers in future want, they can make changes to adjust CFTs


Why not?

J-10's development that we have known is just according to the need of PLAAF.


----------



## Scorpiooo

LKJ86 said:


> Why not?
> 
> J-10's development that we have known is just according to the need of PLAAF.


Sir J10 now has mature enough to meet PlAAF needs, or you see some major variants coming in future too with major enhancements


----------



## LKJ86

Scorpiooo said:


> Sir J10 now has mature enough to meet PlAAF needs


The “mature” means that it is not the latest one any more, and can't meet PLAAF's new needs for sure.


----------



## Scorpiooo

LKJ86 said:


> The “mature” means that it is not the latest one any more, and can't meet PLAAF's new needs for sure.


But there rumours of D variant sort semi sealth like F15 silent eagle

Secondly they can integrates Pl 21 on j10 may be infuture

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## lcloo

Scorpiooo said:


> But there rumours of D variant sort semi sealth like F15 silent eagle
> 
> Secondly they can integrates Pl 21 on j10 may be infuture



I read a lot of Pakistani members refer to J-10 as a short range fighter implying its range inferiority, and so I made a comparative check on publicly available data.

Combat Range
J10 (no external tank) = 1,450km; Ferry range 3,800km with 3 fuel tanks and no weaponloads.
JF-17 (no external tank) = 1,352km
Rafale (3 tanks 5,700litres + weopon loads) =1,850km
Typhoon (3 fuel tanks + weapons) =1,389km
Grippen = 1,500km
F-16 =740nm = 1,370km
F-35 =1,410km

In China, J10 is refer as light weight and short range because of its relativity to that of Flankers and J20 which have superior long ranges,. J10 in fact is not really a light weight fighter, and its combat range is similar to other fighters of similar sizes.

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## Scorpiooo

lcloo said:


> I read a lot of Pakistani members refer to J-10 as a short range fighter implying its range inferiority, and so I made a comparative check on publicly available data.
> 
> Combat Range
> J10 (no external tank) = 1,450km; Ferry range 3,800km with 3 fuel tanks and no weaponloads.
> JF-17 (no external tank) = 1,352km
> Rafale (3 tanks 5,700litres + weopon loads) =1,850km
> Typhoon (3 fuel tanks + weapons) =1,389km
> Grippen = 1,500km
> F-16 =740nm = 1,370km
> F-35 =1,410km
> 
> In China, J10 is refer as light weight and short range because of its relativity to that of Flankers and J20 which have superior long ranges,. J10 in fact is not really a light weight fighter, and its combat range is similar to other fighters of similar sizes.


Thanks for sharing such detial comparison, my point was its fall normal range, but if adding CFT instead of external fuel tanks will not reduced it hard points and on other hand give edge to Panettiere deep inside enemy


----------



## LKJ86

J-10S

















Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J10A0422






















Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## Scorpiooo

Any informative members, do Chinese have plan to integrate PL 21 on J10x or not ?


----------



## Deino

Scorpiooo said:


> Any informative members, do Chinese have plan to integrate PL 21 on J10x or not ?




So far there is NO PL-21 and I don't think the J-10 is capable to carry such a monster AAM.

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## Scorpiooo

Deino said:


> So far there is NO PL-21 and I don't think the J-10 is capable to carry such a monster AAM.


But if see internet, we find info that PL21 is tested on chinese flankers have plan for future integration into J20 and J31/35.

What you expert opnion about PL 21, is actually created and is in trial or just its in news no actual BRV produced till now @Deino


----------



## LKJ86

Scorpiooo said:


> But if see internet,


China's new AAMs are confidential.

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## Scorpiooo

So mean there other program along with PL 21 as there alos rumors of PL 17 version as well


----------



## LKJ86

CAC' newly-built J-10C







Via @航空工业成飞 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> CAC' newly-built J-10C
> View attachment 735154
> View attachment 735155
> 
> Via @航空工业成飞 from Weixin





... so if these are new built I assume they are all WS-10-powered!?


----------



## Scorpiooo

Deino said:


> ... so if these are new built I assume they are all WS-10-powered!?


Possibly which variant of Ws 10 ? Any chance of TVC


----------



## Deino

Scorpiooo said:


> Possibly which variant of Ws 10 ? Any chance of TVC




Unlikely

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## Scorpiooo

Deino said:


> Unlikely


@Deino what is reality if J10D is ur expert opinion

Also rumoured as having possibly few semi sealth features like American experiment of F15SE (silent eagle)


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## LKJ86

Scorpiooo said:


> @Deino what is reality if J10D is ur expert opinion
> 
> Also rumoured as having possibly few semi sealth features like American experiment of F15SE (silent eagle)


It depends on the progress of SAC's J-xx's development.


----------



## LKJ86

There are same good examples like J-11D vs J-20, and JL-9 vs JL-10.


----------



## mdmm

I heard China is manufacturing mostly J-20 in large numbers. Over last two years the total number of J -10 c is consistent in PLA . But still there are several No-Name J-10 C parked near manufacturing sites in China.
To which country those parked J-10 c are expected to be sold ??


----------



## Scorpiooo

LKJ86 said:


> It depends on the progress of SAC's J-xx's development.


6th or 5.5 gen program?


----------



## CIA Mole

more j10’s mean less j20’s due to engine availability i assume?


----------



## LKJ86

CIA Mole said:


> more j10’s mean less j20’s due to engine availability i assume?


No


----------



## LKJ86

J-10AH

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## White and Green with M/S

Scorpiooo said:


> 6th or 5.5 gen program?


5th gen jet it is bro just like F-22/F-35 combo, J-20 is a heavy Air superiority jet like F-22 and J-31/J-35 will be Multirole jet like F-35 (Medium weight) 6th gen project development for PLAAF are highly classified

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## mdmm

I heard Bangladesh and Malaysia are considering to buy J-10 c??
How many countries are flying J-20 and J-10 c nor or expected within next 5 years ?


----------



## Deino

mdmm said:


> I heard Bangladesh and Malaysia are considering to buy J-10 c??
> ...



IMO highly unlikely .. at best some unsubstantial rumours and Bangladesh is a repeatedly posted fake at a certain FB site; Malaysia I never heard. 




mdmm said:


> ...
> How many countries are flying J-20 and J-10 c nor or expected within next 5 years ?



In fact ZERO for the J-20 and maybe only Pakistan for the J-10.

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## mdmm

Thank you General - *Deino - INT'L MOD*
I always trust on your news which are always true.
My friends in Toronto also like your posts.



Deino said:


> IMO highly unlikely .. at best some unsubstantial rumours and Bangladesh is a repeatedly posted fake at a certain FB site; Malaysia I never heard.
> in fact ZERO for the J-20 and maybe only Pakistan for the J-10.

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## Deino

mdmm said:


> Thank you General - *Deino - INT'L MOD*
> I always trust on your news which are always true.
> My friends in Toronto also like your posts.




Thanks a lot but I know, my news are not always correct but I hope most often.

Otherwise just for you interest, here's someone who does not agree with you and especially me:  









Pinkov's Corner ... the stranger part of the PLA-watching world!


Today, something very much different and still related to PLA-watching and my work. :blink: It all started with a critical comment on his videos and one more on his Flanker & H-6 story and ended in wild-boar modus :taz: Anyway, the story continued and after I asked him several times to leave...



defence.pk


----------



## Scorpiooo

White and Green with M/S said:


> 5th gen jet it is bro just like F-22/F-35 combo, J-20 is a heavy Air superiority jet like F-22 and J-31/J-35 will be Multirole jet like F-35 (Medium weight) 6th gen project development for PLAAF are highly classified


There were some rumors that Chinese will add few sealthy features in J10D


Deino said:


> IMO highly unlikely .. at best some unsubstantial rumours and Bangladesh is a repeatedly posted fake at a certain FB site; Malaysia I never heard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact ZERO for the J-20 and maybe only Pakistan for the J-10.


Pakistan can have only J10 and J31 combo in future ... But will take time


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Scorpiooo said:


> There were some rumors that Chinese will add few sealthy features in J10D


These just romurs by some Chinese fanboys without any solid confirmations by Chinese military, and I personally thinks China don't need any further version of J-10 because they have enough J-11 versions to deter enemy

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## Scorpiooo

White and Green with M/S said:


> These just romurs by some Chinese fanboys without any solid confirmations by Chinese military, and I personally thinks China don't need any further version of J-10 because they have enough J-11 versions to deter enemy


Technicallly make sense


----------



## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J10S0317























Via @空军新闻 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

Via 解放军报

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## LKJ86

J-10C equipped with WS-10 engine




Via @央广军事 from Weixin

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## siegecrossbow

China fields J-10 jets powered by homemade engine


The move represents China’s confidence in the local technology to equip the single-engine, multirole aircraft.




www.defensenews.com

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

siegecrossbow said:


> China fields J-10 jets powered by homemade engine
> 
> 
> The move represents China’s confidence in the local technology to equip the single-engine, multirole aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defensenews.com



Old news. This has been going on for some years already.


----------



## siegecrossbow

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Old news. This has been going on for some years already.



They‘ve been installed on production aircraft since last year but only entered service this year. So many were produced that they caused a clutter at the CAC factory, prompting some losers to speculate that there were quality issues with the domestic engines. Guess that rumor has been put to rest now.

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## Scorpiooo

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C equipped with WS-10 engine
> View attachment 742247
> 
> Via @央广军事 from Weixin


WS 10 B or C ?


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Scorpiooo said:


> WS 10 B or C ?


All J-10C carrying WS-10H, WS-10B for J-11 and WS-10C for J-20

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## mdmm

Any way, Insider News of Pakistan telling that in 2021 Pakistan will get either J-10 C OR J-11 jet fighters from China .Currently China is upgrading them with needed items.

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## khanasifm

LKJ86 said:


> USAF's F-16 also doesn't choose CFT, and it is just for export.
> PLAAF makes the same choice.



USAF did not because of aar capability range is not an issue while most of foreign af need range 

Cft of f-16 were introduced to compete Israeli requirements which f-15 and f-16 were pitched and iaf went with f-15

Cft will do better then carrying hunged drop tanks with drag 

But then f-6 gondola tanks was also not successful only few were modified not sure why perhaps thrust to weight ratio went down


----------



## khanasifm

LKJ86 said:


> J10S0317
> View attachment 737311
> View attachment 737312
> View attachment 737313
> View attachment 737314
> View attachment 737315
> View attachment 737316
> View attachment 737317
> 
> Via @空军新闻 from Weixin



J10 has mirage 3/5 style drop tank attachment without huge pylon compared to traditional style like f-16 and Jf17 where a huge pylon is used to hung drop tanks with the wing


----------



## CAPRICORN-88

White and Green with M/S said:


> All J-10C carrying WS-10H, WS-10B for J-11 and WS-10C for J-20



_WS-10H is a variant specially designed against sea corrosion for usage at the sea. So it is meant for J-15._

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> _WS-10H is a variant specially designed against sea corrosion for usage at the sea. So it is meant for J-15._



Also J-10 operated by Chinese naval aviation.









People's Liberation Army Naval Air Force - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## White and Green with M/S

CAPRICORN-88 said:


> _WS-10H is a variant specially designed against sea corrosion for usage at the sea. So it is meant for J-15._


sorry for my mistake


----------



## FuturePAF

White and Green with M/S said:


> These just romurs by some Chinese fanboys without any solid confirmations by Chinese military, and I personally thinks China don't need any further version of J-10 because they have enough J-11 versions to deter enemy


Probably could at export customers request, but that party would have to shoulder the development costs and would probably have to be a substantial number to justify the added cost instead of buying a J-10CE “off the shelf”


CAPRICORN-88 said:


> _WS-10H is a variant specially designed against sea corrosion for usage at the sea. So it is meant for J-15._



What the max thrusts in dry and reheat for the WS-10H? Cant find a reference specially for the specs on the WS-10h engine. A variant designed for sea corrosion could be very attractive for the Pakistan navy.


----------



## siegecrossbow

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Also J-10 operated by Chinese naval aviation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People's Liberation Army Naval Air Force - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org



PLAN only operates J-10A variants, non of which uses Taihang.


----------



## CAPRICORN-88

White and Green with M/S said:


> sorry for my mistake


_I similarly will accept any correction to my mistake. You are welcome.
 _

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

siegecrossbow said:


> PLAN only operates J-10A variants, non of which uses Taihang.



J-10C phases out J-10A. PLAN J-10C use WS-10H.

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## siegecrossbow

Tai Hai Chen said:


> J-10C phases out J-10A. PLAN J-10C use WS-10H.



There is no PLAN J-10C yet.


----------



## LKJ86

siegecrossbow said:


> PLAN only operates J-10A variants, non of which uses Taihang.


J-10AH and J-10SH


----------



## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

siegecrossbow said:


> There is no PLAN J-10C yet.



Not yet. Once there is they use WS-10H.

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## siegecrossbow

LKJ86 said:


> J-10AH and J-10SH



Hence J-10A variant, which J-10AH is a member of.


----------



## Deino

Tai Hai Chen said:


> J-10C phases out J-10A. PLAN J-10C use WS-10H.



Oh my god!!! Can you at least do once in a week check what you post before you post!???   

Nor is there a PLAN J-10C neither is it replacing its A models with it.

Honestly. such a stupidity should be forbidden.

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## Scorpiooo

mdmm said:


> Any way, Insider News of Pakistan telling that in 2021 Pakistan will get either J-10 C OR J-11 jet fighters from China .Currently China is upgrading them with needed items.


J11 not in production any more ..


----------



## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Deino said:


> Nor is there a PLAN J-10C neither is it replacing its A models with it.



A model is no longer in production. PLAN eventually receives J-10C to replace its current J-10A fleet. The ones for PLAN would have WS-10H which works better for naval ops.


----------



## siegecrossbow

Blacklight said:


> Sir, this is an online forum not the International (aka impotent) court of Justice, people express their views, why do you have to go ballistic? YOU are a mod, just make your point and move on.
> *Unless you want people to call you a closet Nazi.*



Dude that’s uncalled for.

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## denel

Blacklight said:


> Sir, this is an online forum not the International (aka impotent) court of Justice, people express their views, why do you have to go ballistic? YOU are a mod, just make your point and move on.
> Unless you want people to call you a closet Nazi.


There is a difference... in that particular case - the fellow has a massive spammer complex; there is no basis for logic. Mod is correct in this case to clamp down.

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## Blacklight

siegecrossbow said:


> Dude that’s uncalled for.


Not at all, people should be allowed to express their views, as long as they remain civil. It is up to the general public to believe, what they want to. Unnecessary censorship, ridiculing by Admin team is simply uncalled for.

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## siegecrossbow

Scorpiooo said:


> J11 not in production any more ..



Up until 2017 they acquired a small batch of J-11B as a stopgap measure. Recently they’ve begone fitting AESA on them. But you are right that they stopped making them.


Blacklight said:


> Not at all, people should be allowed to express their views, as long as they remain civil. It is up to the general public to believe, what they want to. Unnecessary censorship, ridiculing by Admin team is simply uncalled for.



No matter what you shouldn’t call him a nazi, especially given his nationality. That’s disrespectful.

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## Blacklight

siegecrossbow said:


> No matter what you shouldn’t call him a nazi, especially given his nationality. That’s disrespectful.


Respect is earned, not imposed.

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## Ace of Spades

mdmm said:


> Any way, Insider News of Pakistan telling that in 2021 Pakistan will get either J-10 C OR J-11 jet fighters from China .Currently China is upgrading them with needed items.



Yes, Pakistan is most probably acquiring J10C.

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## LKJ86

Tai Hai Chen said:


> PLAN eventually receives J-10C to replace its current J-10A fleet.


I don't think so.


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

LKJ86 said:


> I don't think so.



Well, they gonna have to considering A model is no longer in production.


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## LKJ86

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Well, they gonna have to considering A model is no longer in production.


And so what?
PLAN has other better options.

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## LKJ86

J-10S





Via www.81.cn


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## LKJ86

J-10C







Via www.81.cn

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## Deino

Slowly images of WS-10B powered J-10Cs are more frequently posted ... 

(Image via @xyqq/SDF)

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*PLA’s J-10C fighter makes training debut with domestically made engine: reports








PLA’s J-10C fighter makes training debut with domestically made engine: reports - Global Times







www.globaltimes.cn




*

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Slowly images of WS-10B powered J-10Cs are more frequently posted ...
> 
> (Image via @xyqq/SDF)
> 
> View attachment 743850



Soon we will be able to shut down the engine trolls for good. Every newly produced Chinese fighter aircraft will use domestic engines.

Next breakthrough would be WS-15. Let’s see if they can beat Russia to a F-119 level engine.

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## LKJ86

siegecrossbow said:


> Every newly produced Chinese fighter aircraft will use domestic engines.


Maybe J-15 needs some more time.

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## m52k85

Deino said:


> Slowly images of WS-10B powered J-10Cs are more frequently posted ...
> 
> (Image via @xyqq/SDF)
> 
> View attachment 743850


What do we know of the super-cruise performance/ possibility of J-10c with the local engine? Thanks.


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## siegecrossbow

m52k85 said:


> What do we know of the super-cruise performance/ possibility of J-10c with the local engine? Thanks.



J-10C can't super-cruise.

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## m52k85

siegecrossbow said:


> J-10C can't super-cruise.


May I ask where you know that from? Thanks.


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## Deino

m52k85 said:


> May I ask where you know that from? Thanks.




I would change to question to the contrary: Why should it be when it was NOT capable of supercruise with the original AL-31FN?

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> I would change to question to the contrary: Why should it be when it was NOT capable of supercruise with the original AL-31FN?



WS-10 has a higher by-pass ratio than the AL-31FN. It trades off high speed performance for greater maximum thrust.


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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> WS-10 has a higher by-pass ratio than the AL-31FN. It trades off high speed performance for greater maximum thrust.




But is this marginal increase relevant since thrust alone is not the important factor to supercruise?

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## mdmm

very impressive pirctures of J-10C. I wish Pakistan to have at least 100 of these J-10C in their Pakistan Air Force. Here in Canada, a Canadian retired pilot friend told me that J-10C is a powerful,advance multifeature, comprehensive jet fighter to fight better against latest major jet fighters like Su, Sukhoi, Mig , F22, F16, Eurofighter , Gripon and Rafale.

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## LKJ86

J-10SH













Via @东海舰队发布 from Weixin

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

LKJ86 said:


> J-10SH
> View attachment 745248
> View attachment 745249
> View attachment 745250
> View attachment 745251
> 
> Via @东海舰队发布 from Weixin



It's a pity the A model cannot be upgraded to the C model due to different fuselage. Hopefully PLAN gets the C model and phases out the A model over the coming years.

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## Deino

Tai Hai Chen said:


> It's a pity the A model cannot be upgraded to the C model due to different fuselage. Hopefully PLAN gets the C model and phases out the A model over the coming years.




Nope ... hopefully the PLAN retires all its old J-10AH models and replaces them with more J-15 and J-16H.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Deino said:


> Nope ... hopefully the PLAN retires all its old J-10AH models and replaces them with more J-15 and J-16H.



J-10C has better serviceability and takes up less space than J-16. On naval aviation bases that is a plus.

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## m52k85

Are no more 2 seater being produced? They all seem to be of A type with non-DSI intakes.


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## Deino

Tai Hai Chen said:


> J-10C has better serviceability and takes up less space than J-16. On naval aviation bases that is a plus.




No, for the PLAN land-based operations this size issue is no issue but the J-10's limited range and weapons load is especially for naval operations a huge plus for a pure-Flanker fleet.


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## LKJ86

J-10AS and J-10SH







Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J10AH0528






















Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## m52k85

m52k85 said:


> Are no more 2 seater being produced? They all seem to be of A type with non-DSI intakes.


@Deino ?


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## lcloo

m52k85 said:


> Are no more 2 seater being produced? They all seem to be of A type with non-DSI intakes.


Unlikely to see a new twin seater J10C, as there is no requirement.

Twin seater J10's main role is pilot conversion, i.e. to to convert a certified pilot from another aircraft type (ex J7, J8, JL9 and others) to J10. The twin seater J10 seen to be able to satisfy conversion to J10A/B/C with-out any hitch. Thus It does not matter the type conversion twin seater J10 is same as J10A spec and with non-DSI air intake.

Conversion training usually last only a few months, and with may be 70 to 80 hours flight time. Thereafter the pilot concerned will switch over to single seat J10A/B/C.

An anology in Chinese flankers - the old twin seater SU-27UBK bought some 20 years ago (along with the now retired PLAAF SU-27SK) is still doing the type conversion for pilots who will be taking control of J11B despite the difference between J11B and SU-27SK/J11A.

A conversion trainer need not have exact spec as the aircraft which the newly converted pilot will command.

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## samsara

I just posted some articles on *J-10C with the domestically developed WS-10 Taihang engine* at the *"Chinese Aero Engine information thread"*, please read them there 






Chinese Aero Engine information thread


I mean CAC terminating J-10 production and converting those lines to produce J-20s. It is impossible, until SAC's J-XX or others are in mass production.



defence.pk





- *China’s J-10 comes of age with indigenous engine*
By Greg Waldron | FlightGlobal - 21 May 2021

- *PLA’s J-10C fighter makes training debut with domestically made engine: reports*
By Liu Xuanzun | Global Times - 13 May 2021

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## LKJ86

Via Weibo

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## m52k85

kungfugymnast said:


> J-10CE with larger internal fuel 14,000lb estimate has better combat radius than Rafale.


What is the source? Internal fuel of 14,000 seems unlikely, thats how much the Super Hornet has, the Super Hornet is 4 feet longer and about 30% extra wing area.


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## LKJ86

J-10SH










Via www.81.cn

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## LKJ86

Via @学习军团 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S

























Via @解放军报 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## m52k85

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 748761
> View attachment 748762
> View attachment 748763


What are those long slits below the cockpit that glow green in the dark?
@Deino


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## siegecrossbow

m52k85 said:


> What are those long slits below the cockpit that glow green in the dark?
> @Deino



I think those are formation lights but I could be wrong.

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## LKJ86

J10SH0217










Via CCTV and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S


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## LKJ86

Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## Surya 1

kungfugymnast said:


> Military marketing won't be long wait, they will come with their products for demonstration and convince PAF to buy. It's not just about making money but to get combat proven if more tea being served which would give positive reputation to CAIC. CAIC will get more potential customers if their weapons proven useful in return of supplying J-10CE to PAF at bargain price. Win win solution for both.
> 
> J-10CE vs Rafale, the J-10CE with TVC will definitely superior in dogfight. In BVR, the J-10CE fitted with large AESA radar has the longer search and track range. J-10CE with larger internal fuel 14,000lb estimate has better combat radius than Rafale. PAF would need the J-10CE for air to air role, let's wait and see whether CAIC would make changes to pylons to fit at least 8 air to air missiles removing the ability to carry large 500gal fuel tank or 2000lb bomb underwing. The fuselage 4 pylons could be changed to missile rails for 2 more PL-12/15, total 2x PL-10E & 6x PL-12/15.



14000 pound Internal fuel? Are you doing Kungfu as per your Avatar name?


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## LKJ86

J-10C
















Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## Shabi1

Any pictures armed with PL-15


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## LKJ86

Shabi1 said:


> Any pictures armed with PL-15


Many...

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## Deino

Shabi1 said:


> Any pictures armed with PL-15




You never notice?

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## Scorpiooo

@Deino @LKJ86 any info that will we see any new variant of J10x after C, or china stop j10 program on C variant and focus on 5th gen jets


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## khanasifm

Deino said:


> You never notice?
> 
> View attachment 751781
> View attachment 751782



Pl-15 are pretty much same size as sd-10s in-fact dia is smaller 200mm vs 203, not sure about weight


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## siegecrossbow

khanasifm said:


> Pl-15 are pretty much same size as sd-10s in-fact dia is smaller 200mm vs 203, not sure about weight



It uses a dual-pulse rocket. I’d be surprised if it is lighter.


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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S

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## White and Green with M/S

Scorpiooo said:


> @Deino @LKJ86 any info that will we see any new variant of J10x after C, or china stop j10 program on C variant and focus on 5th gen jets


The simple answer for your question is NO, their will be no further variant of J-10 after C, I think J-10C will replace Earliest J-10As and S (dual seater), J-10B had limited production because It was/is a testbed for developing Avionics and other sub system for J-20, there are some faint rumors that China developing J-10D with CFT and other state of art gadgets, but this rumor has no STRONG BACKUP just my 2 cent brother

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## LKJ86

CAC's newly-built J-10C equipped with a new HUD








Via @航空工业 from Weixin

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> CAC's newly-built J-10C equipped with a new HUD
> View attachment 752391
> 
> View attachment 752388
> 
> Via @航空工业 from Weixin




Looks a bit like the one in the J-20?

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## White and Green with M/S

Deino said:


> Looks a bit like the one in the J-20?
> 
> View attachment 752401


No Sir there is no IRST on j-20


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## Deino

White and Green with M/S said:


> No Sir there is no IRST on j-20




What???  ... we are talking about the HUD and what has this to do with the IRST?

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## White and Green with M/S

Deino said:


> What???  ... we are talking about the HUD and what has this to do with the IRST?


Sorry Sir I think you're talking about as a whole picture but as for your concern about HUD the one on j-10c is quite different from j-20 HUD i think


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## Deino

White and Green with M/S said:


> Sorry Sir I think you're talking about as a whole picture but as for your concern about HUD the one on j-10c is quite different from j-20 HUD i think




You are correct! At first sight I thought it looks like the J-20's HUD, but now I'm no longer sure ... and it looks also different to the one used by the JF-17 Block 3.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Looks pretty cool and modern compared to the older model.

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## Ali_Baba

I do wonder if the new HUD indicates a new avionics core? The JF17 Block III has the same hud and is meant to come with a Single display MFD, AESA radar and new ECM/EW systems.


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## LKJ86

J-10C





Via 王国云

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## kungfugymnast

Surya 1 said:


> 14000 pound Internal fuel? Are you doing Kungfu as per your Avatar name?



The figure taken from wikipedia on J-10A where it stated J-10A length at 57ft. Wikipedia specifications then updated to J-10C with similar information as J-10A before being revised the 2nd time now stated 52ft long with internal fuel tank information removed. 

How big is J-10C fuel tank then? Rafale at 50ft & wingspan 35ft internal tank 10,000lb while EF-2000 at 52ft long & wingspan 35ft internal tank 11,000lb. J-10C on latest Wikipedia length 52ft wingspan 30ft (less because of single engine) at 10,000-11,000lb internal fuel tank? 

You find my details wrong, you post your details to compare then. Nobody says you can't post correct figure.


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## kungfugymnast

m52k85 said:


> What is the source? Internal fuel of 14,000 seems unlikely, thats how much the Super Hornet has, the Super Hornet is 4 feet longer and about 30% extra wing area.



Wikipedia earlier specifications before author revised specifications with internal fuel information removed


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## White and Green with M/S

kungfugymnast said:


> Wikipedia earlier specifications before author revised specifications with internal fuel information removed


Wikipedia is unreliable source and this is your personal opinion/assumptions which could be wrong, J-10 series of jets almost have a same specifications like EF-2000/Rafale, so we we assume J-10C has same fuel loads as Rafale and EF-2000, and by the way where do you get the information from Wikipedia that J-10 has a length of 57 feet figure, i reading Wikipedia Since at least 2009, Wikipedia never said that J-10 has length of 57 feet lol

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## kungfugymnast

White and Green with M/S said:


> Wikipedia is unreliable source and this is your personal opinion/assumptions which could be wrong, J-10 series of jets almost have a same specifications like EF-2000/Rafale, so we we assume J-10C has same fuel loads as Rafale and EF-2000, and by the way where do you get the information from Wikipedia that J-10 has a length of 57 feet figure, i reading Wikipedia Since at least 2009, Wikipedia never said that J-10 has length of 57 feet lol



Wikipedia is unreliable source but it still has something. The information on US & EU fighters are acceptable. China fighters especially newer ones that aren't available on export market usually reluctant to share information even with top military specifications publisher Jane's. 

What assumption and when did I assume on J-10C specifications. My previous post specifications taken from wikipedia few months back. I would memorize fighters specifications by speed followed by length, wingspan then the rest. 
F-15C mach 2.5+, 63ft, 42ft
F-16C mach 2+, 49ft, 31ft
F-14A mach 2.32, 62ft, 64ft unswept 33ft swept
F/A-18C mach 1.8+, 56ft, 37ft

The J-10, I frequently visited Wikipedia to check information since 2008 at least once a year. I remember the length stated there 57ft because it is quite large for single engine fighter bigger than F-104. It is you that didn't memorize specifications on J-10A in Wikipedia in 2009, 2011, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021. 

Tell me what j-10 photo was being shown on wikipedia earlier before being amended and specifications of J-10A replaced with J-10C? If you failed to describe the first J-10 photo on Wikipedia, it will prove that you're lying going personal to create hatred.

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## Deino

kungfugymnast said:


> Wikipedia is unreliable source but it still has something. The information on US & EU fighters are acceptable. China fighters especially newer ones that aren't available on export market usually reluctant to share information even with top military specifications publisher Jane's.
> 
> What assumption and when did I assume on J-10C specifications. My previous post specifications taken from wikipedia few months back. I would memorize fighters specifications by speed followed by length, wingspan then the rest.
> F-15C mach 2.5+, 63ft, 42ft
> F-16C mach 2+, 49ft, 31ft
> F-14A mach 2.32, 62ft, 64ft unswept 33ft swept
> F/A-18C mach 1.8+, 56ft, 37ft
> 
> The J-10, I frequently visited Wikipedia to check information since 2008 at least once a year. I remember the length stated there 57ft because it is quite large for single engine fighter bigger than F-104. It is you that didn't memorize specifications on J-10A in Wikipedia in 2009, 2011, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021.
> 
> Tell me what j-10 photo was being shown on wikipedia earlier before being amended and specifications of J-10A replaced with J-10C? If you failed to describe the first J-10 photo on Wikipedia, it will prove that you're lying going personal to create hatred.




Pardon, but what on earth has this all to do with completely exaggerated statistics only to fit your agenda? So far we have NO data on the J-10s fuel load nor - as in your other exaggerated claim - durability for the WS-10. These are all hyped up based on wishful thinking and guess and especially here is Wiki a most unreliable source.


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## kungfugymnast

Deino said:


> Pardon, but what on earth has this all to do with completely exaggerated statistics only to fit your agenda? So far we have NO data on the J-10s fuel load nor - as in your other exaggerated claim - durability for the WS-10. These are all hyped up based on wishful thinking and guess and especially here is Wiki a most unreliable source.



Wikipedia didn't mention WS-10 being reliable, only saw it in your older post of J-11. My post that you replied is meant for White and Green with M/S. It's a question for him for trying to defame my old post & part of his challenge on Wikipedia specifications.


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## Globenim

I dont know what worse.

A long discussion about what Wikipedia once said or never said, with no word which language version who is even talking about because each can and do have different content, nevermind a date when it was supposed to be there so you can just look it up on the edit history an end the discussion or citing Wikipedia in first place

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## White and Green with M/S

kungfugymnast said:


> Wikipedia is unreliable source but it still has something. The information on US & EU fighters are acceptable. China fighters especially newer ones that aren't available on export market usually reluctant to share information even with top military specifications publisher Jane's.
> 
> What assumption and when did I assume on J-10C specifications. My previous post specifications taken from wikipedia few months back. I would memorize fighters specifications by speed followed by length, wingspan then the rest.
> F-15C mach 2.5+, 63ft, 42ft
> F-16C mach 2+, 49ft, 31ft
> F-14A mach 2.32, 62ft, 64ft unswept 33ft swept
> F/A-18C mach 1.8+, 56ft, 37ft
> 
> The J-10, I frequently visited Wikipedia to check information since 2008 at least once a year. I remember the length stated there 57ft because it is quite large for single engine fighter bigger than F-104. It is you that didn't memorize specifications on J-10A in Wikipedia in 2009, 2011, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021.
> 
> Tell me what j-10 photo was being shown on wikipedia earlier before being amended and specifications of J-10A replaced with J-10C? If you failed to describe the first J-10 photo on Wikipedia, it will prove that you're lying going personal to create hatred.


Do you know what you are talking about 🤔 57 feet with single engine,its same length as hornet ànd do you know with single engine j-10 would have such a low thrust to weight ratio??? 

Ànd what the heck you're talking about Max speed of these jets is that related to Max fuel on j-10
You don't know what you talking about


kungfugymnast said:


> Wikipedia didn't mention WS-10 being reliable, only saw it in your older post of J-11. My post that you replied is meant for White and Green with M/S. It's a question for him for trying to defame my old post & part of his challenge on Wikipedia specifications.


Unreliable or not ws-10 is for j-10 ànd do you know about fuel consumption ànd other technical data of ws-10

Ànd i am not trying to defame you or something like that but asking you logically ànd technically

All of your posts here doesn't make any sense at all


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## siegecrossbow

White and Green with M/S said:


> Do you know what you are talking about 🤔 57 feet with single engine,its same length as hornet ànd do you know with single engine j-10 would have such a low thrust to weight ratio???
> 
> Ànd what the heck you're talking about Max speed of these jets is that related to Max fuel on j-10
> You don't know what you talking about
> 
> Unreliable or not ws-10 is for j-10 ànd do you know about fuel consumption ànd other technical data of ws-10
> 
> Ànd i am not trying to defame you or something like that but asking you logically ànd technically
> 
> All of your posts here doesn't make any sense at all



The 57 feet figure might include the pitot tube, which is present on the J-10A variant.


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## White and Green with M/S

siegecrossbow said:


> The 57 feet figure might include the pitot tube, which is present on the J-10A variant.


And can you show me pitot tube one j-10?? Ànd Can pitot tube store fuel?? I think pitot tube one was prototype of j-10 that flew in late 90s ànd in early DEVELOPMENTS


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## siegecrossbow

White and Green with M/S said:


> And can you show me pitot tube one j-10?? Ànd Can pitot tube store fuel?? I think pitot tube one was prototype of j-10 that flew in late 90s ànd in early DEVELOPMENTS

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## White and Green with M/S

siegecrossbow said:


> View attachment 753779


The main question is that is pitot tube can carry fuel???


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## siegecrossbow

White and Green with M/S said:


> The main question is that is pitot tube can carry fuel???



No it can’t. I’m just trying to find a possible explanation for 57 feet.

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## kungfugymnast

White and Green with M/S said:


> Do you know what you are talking about 🤔 57 feet with single engine,its same length as hornet ànd do you know with single engine j-10 would have such a low thrust to weight ratio???
> 
> Ànd what the heck you're talking about Max speed of these jets is that related to Max fuel on j-10
> You don't know what you talking about
> 
> Unreliable or not ws-10 is for j-10 ànd do you know about fuel consumption ànd other technical data of ws-10
> 
> Ànd i am not trying to defame you or something like that but asking you logically ànd technically
> 
> All of your posts here doesn't make any sense at all



The 57ft was what written on Wikipedia J-10A specifications before they replaced with J-10C specifications that was revised twice. First revision in early 2020 without much changes, more of specifications from J-10A. 2nd revision not long after my post that you replied with provocation.

Where's your description on all details stated in Wikipedia on J-10 articles from 2009 until 2019 since you said you memorised everything? How come you did not describe the J-10A photo that was on that page in 2011-2019? When J-10A became known to public, western journalist without access to manufacturer's specifications estimated the length including probe based on scale of all available photos at 57ft which is quite long. Specifications of J-10 only became available when Chengdu participated in military expo with limited information before Covid19 start. 

Don't try to steer to irrelevant topic when my reply to you is mainly on Wikipedia J-10 articles writeup. If you're that smart, where would you get the internal fuel tank specification then?


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## kungfugymnast

White and Green with M/S said:


> And can you show me pitot tube one j-10?? Ànd Can pitot tube store fuel?? I think pitot tube one was prototype of j-10 that flew in late 90s ànd in early DEVELOPMENTS



This is funniest post ever. Pitot tube stores fuel? Pitot tube, radome probe are mainly electrical component. Not to be mistaken with inflight refuelling probe


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## White and Green with M/S

kungfugymnast said:


> The 57ft was what written on Wikipedia J-10A specifications before they replaced with J-10C specifications that was revised twice. First revision in early 2020 without much changes, more of specifications from J-10A. 2nd revision not long after my post that you replied with provocation.
> 
> Where's your description on all details stated in Wikipedia on J-10 articles from 2009 until 2019 since you said you memorised everything? How come you did not describe the J-10A photo that was on that page in 2011-2019? When J-10A became known to public, western journalist without access to manufacturer's specifications estimated the length including probe based on scale of all available photos at 57ft which is quite long. Specifications of J-10 only became available when Chengdu participated in military expo with limited information before Covid19 start.
> 
> Don't try to steer to irrelevant topic when my reply to you is mainly on Wikipedia J-10 articles writeup. If you're that smart, where would you get the internal fuel tank specification then?


your this post is all gibbrresh, 57 feet long means its equal to the length of hornet and with a single engine can it able to fly with single engine and length of 57 feet, on prototype of J-10A there were a pitot tube , do you know what is a pitot tube is for??? and can Pitot tube able to carry a fuel???

J-10 has a same specifications as F-16/Rafale/EF-2000 so we assume that J-10A/B/C have same mmax fuel as F-16/Rafale/EF-2000

no one believe you on your this stupid argument that J-10 are able to carry more max fuel than F-16/Rafale/EF-2000 this is logic and common sense said


kungfugymnast said:


> This is funniest post ever. Pitot tube stores fuel? Pitot tube, radome probe are mainly electrical component. Not to be mistaken with inflight refuelling probe


early in the development of J-10 project, only test aircraft can carried pitot tube (3-4 feet long), and i know what is pitot tube very well what is pitot tube is, but you claims to be a fake expert on aviation, and claiming that J-10 has a 57 feet long and able to carry far more fuel than F-16/Rafale/Ef-2000 without any strong and solid backup

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## kungfugymnast

White and Green with M/S said:


> your this post is all gibbrresh, 57 feet long means its equal to the length of hornet and with a single engine can it able to fly with single engine and length of 57 feet, on prototype of J-10A there were a pitot tube , do you know what is a pitot tube is for??? and can Pitot tube able to carry a fuel???
> 
> J-10 has a same specifications as F-16/Rafale/EF-2000 so we assume that J-10A/B/C have same mmax fuel as F-16/Rafale/EF-2000
> 
> no one believe you on your this stupid argument that J-10 are able to carry more max fuel than F-16/Rafale/EF-2000 this is logic and common sense said
> 
> early in the development of J-10 project, only test aircraft can carried pitot tube (3-4 feet long), and i know what is pitot tube very well what is pitot tube is, but you claims to be a fake expert on aviation, and claiming that J-10 has a 57 feet long and able to carry far more fuel than F-16/Rafale/Ef-2000 without any strong and solid backup



57ft is what stated in Wikipedia before 2019 articles as stated clearly in my previous post. It doesn't come from me and it seems like you're trying to cover your shame deliberately defame by changing my statement. 

"Wikipedia older article before year 2019 specification J-10A stated 57ft overall length. Wikipedia older article before year 2019 stated internal fuel tank 14,000lb"
What do you understand by this? Wikipedia posted wrong details, I post what Wikipedia said. Then your understanding is my assumption?


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## Surya 1

kungfugymnast said:


> The figure taken from wikipedia on J-10A where it stated J-10A length at 57ft. Wikipedia specifications then updated to J-10C with similar information as J-10A before being revised the 2nd time now stated 52ft long with internal fuel tank information removed.
> 
> How big is J-10C fuel tank then? Rafale at 50ft & wingspan 35ft internal tank 10,000lb while EF-2000 at 52ft long & wingspan 35ft internal tank 11,000lb. J-10C on latest Wikipedia length 52ft wingspan 30ft (less because of single engine) at 10,000-11,000lb internal fuel tank?
> 
> You find my details wrong, you post your details to compare then. Nobody says you can't post correct figure.



Rafale and EF are twin engine planes which naturally has higher internal fuel.

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86




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## LKJ86

J-10S




Via 田健敏


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## LKJ86

J-10C & HMD







Via @学习军团 from Weibo


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## LKJ86

J-10S

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## LKJ86

J-10C
















Via @学习军团 from Weibo

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## TNT

Anh data on avg RCS of J10C??


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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1410473770117107718

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## LKJ86

Via @百岁山不甜 from Weibo

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## White and Green with M/S

kungfugymnast said:


> 57ft is what stated in Wikipedia before 2019 articles as stated clearly in my previous post. It doesn't come from me and it seems like you're trying to cover your shame deliberately defame by changing my statement.
> 
> "Wikipedia older article before year 2019 specification J-10A stated 57ft overall length. Wikipedia older article before year 2019 stated internal fuel tank 14,000lb"
> What do you understand by this? Wikipedia posted wrong details, I post what Wikipedia said. Then your understanding is my assumption?


When Wikipedia said that J10 has length of 57 feet in 2019??? lol i am reading Wikipedia since 2009 and i am crazy about aviation fields often read the stuff that related to aviation, Wikipedia never said that J10 has length of 57 feet in 2019, not at least since 2009, Wikipedia always stated J10 has length of 52 feet, don't be a liar lol


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## LKJ86

LKJ86 said:


> CAC' newly-built J-10C
> View attachment 735154
> View attachment 735155
> 
> Via @航空工业成飞 from Weixin







Via @航空工业 from Weibo

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## j20blackdragon

Thank you Deino for confirming J-10C Batch 06.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1410473770117107718
And how many aircraft per batch?






6 * 76 = 456.

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## Deino

j20blackdragon said:


> Thank you Deino for confirming J-10C Batch 06.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1410473770117107718
> And how many aircraft per batch?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6 * 76 = 456.




Nope ... I think the earlier batches were smaller, but I need to check when I'm back home.


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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via @航空工业成飞 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

J-10C




Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## Shabi1

Is another variant in the works, its not a far fetched idea.
*J-10D?*


https://inf.news/en/military/6eb95a63cbec28b4fbb11255a00b3486.html

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## Deino

Shabi1 said:


> Is another variant in the works, its not a far fetched idea.
> *J-10D?*
> 
> 
> https://inf.news/en/military/6eb95a63cbec28b4fbb11255a00b3486.html




What a strange site is this? IMO not very reliable.

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## MajesticPug

Deino said:


> What a strange site is this? IMO not very reliable.



Very poorly written and edited. In some places, J10 was written as 'F10'. Purely speculative without proof such as pictures or statement from anyone from the manufacturer or designer.

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## LKJ86

J-10C

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## LKJ86

J-10C and J-10S
















Via 央广军事

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## onebyone

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1414117022535802884

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## CAPRICORN-88

onebyone said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1414117022535802884



_Forgive my ignorance, how can he tells it is J-10C and not J-10A or J-10B? _

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S

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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH
















Via @东部战区 from Weixin


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## LKJ86

J-10S




Via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


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## luciferdd

这次可能真要卖了，中航国际都出来越热了。

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## Areesh

luciferdd said:


> View attachment 762136
> View attachment 762137
> 
> 
> 这次可能真要卖了，中航国际都出来越热了。



Can you please translate what is being said in Chinese?


----------



## _NOBODY_

luciferdd said:


> View attachment 762136
> View attachment 762137
> 
> 
> 这次可能真要卖了，中航国际都出来越热了。


Can you translate? My Mandarin is atrocious. I can barely read the simplified script let alone the traditional script.


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## Deino

luciferdd said:


> View attachment 762136
> View attachment 762137
> 
> 
> 这次可能真要卖了，中航国际都出来越热了。




Again my typical question, but you know I cannot resist: What's the source?


_NOBODY_ said:


> Can you translate? My Mandarin is atrocious. I can barely read the simplified script let alone the traditional script.




Mine too, but this is what Google says:



> This time it may really be sold, and AVIC International is getting hotter and hotter.

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## luciferdd

Areesh said:


> Can you please translate what is being said in Chinese?



*J-10C maybe really had purchased by PAF this time, This video is manufactured by 中航国际委员会==》AVIC International Holding Corporation，an organization that is in charge of Air force equipments Import and export. *


Deino said:


> Again my typical question, but you know I cannot resist: What's the source?
> 
> 
> 
> Mine too, but this is what Google says:



yes

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## Areesh

luciferdd said:


> *J-10C maybe really had purchased by PAF this time, This video is manufactured by 中航国际委员会==》AVIC International Holding Corporation，an organization that is in charge of Air force equipments Import and export. *
> 
> 
> yes



So this is from AVIC itself??


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## luciferdd

Areesh said:


> So this is from AVIC itself??



yes

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## Areesh

luciferdd said:


> yes



Then this is pretty much official I guess

Might be the first official hint towards this deal

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## Deino

luciferdd said:


> yes




another post noted it is not AVIC, but:



jaybird said:


> First two line is slogan or poem:
> (忠诚奉献，逐梦蓝天.)Dedication and Loyalty,chasing the blue sky.
> 
> The important part is this picture was made by (共青团中航国际委员会.)
> AVIC communist youth League international committee.
> 
> If the picture is really authentic and created by AVIC communist youth League international committee,
> then possibility of J-10C to Pakistan is no longer just smoke.

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## Areesh

Deino said:


> another post noted it is not AVIC, but:



Where does it say it is not AVIC?

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## Vapnope

@Deino @LKJ86 Is there any dedicated EW J10 variant?


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## Sinnerman108

Shabi1 said:


> Is another variant in the works, its not a far fetched idea.
> *J-10D?*
> 
> 
> https://inf.news/en/military/6eb95a63cbec28b4fbb11255a00b3486.html



Careful
Don't open tis link

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## Deino

Areesh said:


> Where does it say it is not AVIC?




You are correct ... if indeed from 共青团中航国际委员会, then it's AVIC! My fault. 


Vapnope said:


> @Deino @LKJ86 Is there any dedicated EW J10 variant?




Not by my understanding.

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## ozranger

@Deino 共青团中航国际委员会 should be translated as "Committee of communist youth league members in AVIC International". My understanding is that the GIF animation and the original post is for internal promotional purpose as of an effort to push young employees to accomplish goal of the contract sooner with higher quality. So it seems that the rumoured J-10C deal is for real.

BTW I think PAF is now applying or upgrading China developed datalinks to its China made aircrafts, including ZDK-03, JF-17 and the upcoming J-10C. I guess PAF might procure new electronic warfare planes from China as well. Thus PAF can ultimately build a complete kill chain on fast data links.

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## LKJ86

J-10S

























Via @南部战区 from Weibo

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## Scorpiooo

__ https://www.facebook.com/306947582845537/posts/1762056180667996

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## LKJ86

J-10C





Via 王国云

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## LKJ86

PLAN's J-10 & Su-30MKK2

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## python-000

luciferdd said:


> *J-10C maybe really had purchased by PAF this time, This video is manufactured by 中航国际委员会==》AVIC International Holding Corporation，an organization that is in charge of Air force equipments Import and export. *
> 
> 
> yes


I im only accept the right & true when @LKJ86 conform it...

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## Daniel808

*J-10C*

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## mdmm

How many of J-10 C jet fighters has been signed in the deal between China and Pakistan and when will be delivered to Pakistan ?


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## dbc

Daniel808 said:


> *J-10C*
> View attachment 764032



is this image from a trusted source? Looks like the wing geometry has changed along with the position of the passive receivers and CM dispenser.


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## Daniel808

*The Level of Craftsmanship of the J-10






*

😳

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## CAPRICORN-88

Daniel808 said:


> *The Level of Craftsmanship of the J-10
> View attachment 766414
> View attachment 766415
> *
> 
> 😳



_Great workmanship. The airframe is very smooth. _


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## siegecrossbow

J-10C with WS-10 engine carrying a PL-10 missile.

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## kungfugymnast

Is this true that China fighter is not waterproof?






The pilot has to dry clean rather than wash clean with water hose? Whereas we can see US pilots spraying water on F-16 like how they'll wash cars.


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## khanasifm

kungfugymnast said:


> Is this true that China fighter is not waterproof?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pilot has to dry clean rather than wash clean with water hose? Whereas we can see US pilots spraying water on F-16 like how they'll wash cars.



ofcourse when they fly both pilot and the plane has an umbrella with them 😉

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## khanasifm

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 751771
> View attachment 751772
> View attachment 751774
> View attachment 751775
> View attachment 751776
> 
> Via CCTV 7 and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo


Is there a dual seater version of j-10C ?


----------



## casual

khanasifm said:


> Is there a dual seater version of j-10C ?


No


----------



## kungfugymnast

khanasifm said:


> Is there a dual seater version of j-10C ?



Dual seat J-10 is mainly for trainee combat training. It would be waste to put sophisticated avionics on combat trainer that won't fly offensive operations.


----------



## khanasifm

kungfugymnast said:


> Dual seat J-10 is mainly for trainee combat training. It would be waste to put sophisticated avionics on combat trainer that won't fly offensive operations.


😂 ok

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## onebyone



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## Proud 2 Be a Pakistani

*Don't Know if its True;*


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## johncliu88

No surprise. SU-35's are old while J-10C has the most recent stuff installed which makes it a different class of fighter.


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## MajesticPug

Proud 2 Be a Pakistani said:


> *Don't Know if its True;*



That was old news. China did many exercises in which J10C crushed Su35 every time. J10C held its edge against J16 despite J16's dual engines and larger AESA radar. The key, I think, is J10C's smaller detectable image on opponent's radar. While J10C's shorter combat range (hey, it's a single engine) cannot make J10C a long range offensive weapon, it's excellent defending the home turf.

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## siegecrossbow

Proud 2 Be a Pakistani said:


> *Don't Know if its True;*



The only reliable rumor I heard was that the Su-35 demonstrated inferior situational awareness than J-10C during an exercise. There is no credible rumor of J-10C being pitted against the Su-35.


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## world of power

Proud 2 Be a Pakistani said:


> *Don't Know if its True;*





siegecrossbow said:


> The only reliable rumor I heard was that the Su-35 demonstrated inferior situational awareness than J-10C during an exercise. There is no credible rumor of J-10C being pitted against the Su-35.


J16 won over J10C & SU35 in Golden Helmet-2018
J10C won over J16 & SU35 in Golden Helmet-2019
J10C won over J16 & SU35 in Golden Helmet-2020
J10C won over J16 & SU35 in Golden Helmet-2021

J-10C: The "Golden Helmet" crown again, the air "Fighting King" really deserves its reputation - iNEWS (inf.news)

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## siegecrossbow

world of power said:


> J16 won over J10C & SU35 in Golden Helmet-2018
> J10C won over J16 & SU35 in Golden Helmet-2019
> J10C won over J16 & SU35 in Golden Helmet-2020
> J10C won over J16 & SU35 in Golden Helmet-2021
> 
> J-10C: The "Golden Helmet" crown again, the air "Fighting King" really deserves its reputation - iNEWS (inf.news)



J-16 won in 2018 and 2019. It is not known if the Su-35 participated in Golden Helmet.


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## khanasifm

MajesticPug said:


> That was old news. China did many exercises in which J10C crushed Su35 every time. J10C held its edge against J16 despite J16's dual engines and larger AESA radar. The key, I think, is J10C's smaller detectable image on opponent's radar. While J10C's shorter combat range (hey, it's a single engine) cannot make J10C a long range offensive weapon, it's excellent defending the home turf.


Combat range and Ferry ranges of both aircraft are know so no co fusion dual engine also mean more fuel consumption
Su-30

*Range:* 3,000 km (1,900 mi, 1,600 nmi) at high altitude
1,270 km (790 mi; 690 nmi) at low altitude

j-10 ferry range 2950km which is same combat range are pretty much same the difference is no external tanks for su-30 vs j-10 is with external fuel so less combat-load bit today’s sow does not make much difference carrying a few guided long range vs bomb truck 🛻
then it’s better to go with su37

not every country can afford f-15s ans su-30 better to have f-16 class or j-10


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## kungfugymnast

khanasifm said:


> Combat range and Ferry ranges of both aircraft are know so no co fusion dual engine also mean more fuel consumption
> Su-30
> 
> *Range:* 3,000 km (1,900 mi, 1,600 nmi) at high altitude
> 1,270 km (790 mi; 690 nmi) at low altitude
> 
> j-10 ferry range 2950km which is same combat range are pretty much same the difference is no external tanks for su-30 vs j-10 is with external fuel so less combat-load bit today’s sow does not make much difference carrying a few guided long range vs bomb truck 🛻
> then it’s better to go with su37
> 
> not every country can afford f-15s ans su-30 better to have f-16 class or j-10



The J-10C is mostly for defensive patrol and air to ground search and destroy for PLAAF just like how US would use their F-16. Air to air intercept, escort sorties would mainly flown by J-11B, J-16 that have the speed and fuel. 

Since you mentioned F-16, just share this latest news on ROCAF F-16B runway mishap here. It's irrelevant but sure most would want to see this footage.

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## serenity

Review of Su-35 Russians exported is great flying performance and the 117 engines are more powerful than WS-10 performance on J-16 especially since J-16 has much more extra weight for second pilot. However when asked about Su-35 overall, it is said it cannot even be compared to J-10C and J-16 although it has interesting duel system which is basically computer where you upload information about fighter you are fighting against and the onboard computers can recommend certain action depending on who the Su-35 is facing and how many. But without detailed information to feed the system, it is quite useless and definitely older than what is being used nowadays. This was when Su-35 first got into PLAAF.

J-10C and J-16 both have much better radars than Irbis E despite Irbis E bragging 400km range which is ridiculous. Powerful radar and very good but what the PLAAF said was that the perfect flanker would be Su-35 with J-16 avionics and sensor fusion. Su-35 represents next evolution in flying performance for flanker series and J-16 has next step of electronics and equipment.

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## world of power

siegecrossbow said:


> J-16 won in 2018 and 2019. It is not known if the Su-35 participated in Golden Helmet.


news said so
J-10C: The "Golden Helmet" crown again, the air "Fighting King" really deserves its reputation - iNEWS (inf.news)
J-10C defeats J-16 and wins “Golden Helmet” (china-arms.com)
In the battle of the Golden Helmet, Su-35 was defeated by the J-10. After more than 20 years of hard work, he finally succeeded | DayDayNews

and we already discussed
(1) J-10C wins PLAAF's "Golden Helmet-2019" air combat competition by defeating J-16 and Su-35SK | Pakistan Defence

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## siegecrossbow

serenity said:


> Review of Su-35 Russians exported is great flying performance and the 117 engines are more powerful than WS-10 performance on J-16 especially since J-16 has much more extra weight for second pilot. However when asked about Su-35 overall, it is said it cannot even be compared to J-10C and J-16 although it has interesting duel system which is basically computer where you upload information about fighter you are fighting against and the onboard computers can recommend certain action depending on who the Su-35 is facing and how many. But without detailed information to feed the system, it is quite useless and definitely older than what is being used nowadays. This was when Su-35 first got into PLAAF.
> 
> J-10C and J-16 both have much better radars than Irbis E despite Irbis E bragging 400km range which is ridiculous. Powerful radar and very good but what the PLAAF said was that the perfect flanker would be Su-35 with J-16 avionics and sensor fusion. Su-35 represents next evolution in flying performance for flanker series and J-16 has next step of electronics and equipment.



The 400KM range is vastly inflated. Radar detection range depends on the RCS of the object being tracked, whether it is lookup or look down (ground clutter could be a pain), and percentage that the target can reliably register. I think the Russian standard is 50% of the time and Western standard is 70%.


----------



## luciferdd

serenity said:


> Review of Su-35 Russians exported is great flying performance and the 117 engines are more powerful than WS-10 performance on J-16 especially since J-16 has much more extra weight for second pilot. However when asked about Su-35 overall, it is said it cannot even be compared to J-10C and J-16 although it has interesting duel system which is basically computer where you upload information about fighter you are fighting against and the onboard computers can recommend certain action depending on who the Su-35 is facing and how many. But without detailed information to feed the system, it is quite useless and definitely older than what is being used nowadays. This was when Su-35 first got into PLAAF.
> 
> J-10C and J-16 both have much better radars than Irbis E despite Irbis E bragging 400km range which is ridiculous. Powerful radar and very good but what the PLAAF said was that the perfect flanker would be Su-35 with J-16 avionics and sensor fusion. Su-35 represents next evolution in flying performance for flanker series and J-16 has next step of electronics and equipment.



YES，the real 3.5G Air superiority fighter is J-11D,But J-11D is useless when you have J-20~~it's a tragedy for j-11D


----------



## serenity

siegecrossbow said:


> The 400KM range is vastly inflated. Radar detection range depends on the RCS of the object being tracked, whether it is lookup or look down (ground clutter could be a pain), and percentage that the target can reliably register. I think the Russian standard is 50% of the time and Western standard is 70%.



I think the Russian material says 400km for 3 meter square RCS objects. We know this mode is near useless anyway without many supports and without R-37 or long range missile. Even then it is limited in use.

Russian standard for measure is lower than Western standard for measure. I can't remember what the exact claimed numbers are but recall Russian one being higher than 50% and western one being higher than 70%.

I doubt Irbis PESA is more useful than J-16's AESA, China's second generation fighter AESA type.



luciferdd said:


> YES，the real 3.5G Air superiority fighter is J-11D,But J-11D is useless when you have J-20~~it's a tragedy for j-11D



Just from Chinese information and public knowledge we know many things for nearly certain.

J-16 is PLAAF's 3.5 generation or in western standard language, 4.5 generation fighter. J-11D radar when the prototypes were evaluated in the 2010s did not have performance they wanted. I don't think J-11D can fly as well as Su-35 either. It is a pointless project to waste money since PLAAF is moving to J-20 then and J-20 was finishing in 2017 to 2018. During these evaluation period in 2010 to 2015 period, they were not sure if J-20 would be successful enough for their desire. J-11D and Su-35 were both the next top fighter in case J-20 project did not deliver well enough.

Since 2016 and later they would have realized J-20 is easily much better than Su-35 and J-11D can ever be for air superiority. By then J-20's weapons systems should have been ready and being constantly tested and improved until first production batch in 2018.

Su-35 was ordered in talks in 1990s but not the modernized Su-35. In 2015 the deal was signed. Many reasons for this deal and first delivery in 2016. Deal was signed three to four years before J-20 first batch service produced. J-11D evaluation showed no definite advantage in air superiority over J-16. For such small difference, the Su-35 flight performance is better with the 117 engine. So clearly the decision was Su-35 in small batch to play with thrust vector and to become dedicated air superiority fighter in PLAAF until J-20 was ready. J-16 is still more effective fighter than Su-35 because it can be much more multirole but air superiority of flight performance cannot match Su-35. The advantage of J-16 is it can fire Chinese missiles so we don't have to keep arming with Russian ones. Chinese long range missiles too and then the next generation ones like PL-15 and PL-10. J-16's radar is also much better but Su-35's engines more powerful and the Russian's new flight control with thrust vector is totally different to older flanker.

J-16 is basically our missile truck that can fly far. J-10C is J-16 light but better flight performance with lower range and missile load. These are PLAAF's 4.5 generation fighters and J-11D is simply pointless by 2016 and more pointless every second after. J-11D's developments now are benefiting J-11B upgrades so not all wasted. J-11B upgraded to new standard are basically J-11D lights.

The important one is more J-20 and upgrading J-20. 4.5 generation is useful for lower cost and something like J-16 has advantage of carrying much more and larger missiles too. Su-35 will not be purchased anymore because even for filling J-16's 4.5 air superiority role, it is not as good. It's only benefit was to show China what thrust vector can be useful for back in 2015 times. It also shows maximum performance of what India's Su-30MKI can be like with even some systems being cousins or the same ones used in MKI. Su-35 performance in every way is superior to MKI. 24 Su-35 also the minimum number of order Russia wanted. Good to evaluate what Russia's best is as well. Even now Russia has no more than 10 service Su-57. Su-35 is still their top major fighter really until they have at least a few dozen Su-57.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430859094756368388

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## mdmm

I asked a concern Tech in Pakistan about getting birds from China. He told me
that, many people are trained to fly Chinese birds and ,
""PAF tech are waiting to receive J-10 c jet fighters, any time """

I do not know, what that mean.

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## Deino

mdmm said:


> I asked a concern Tech in Pakistan about getting birds from China. He told me
> that, many people are trained to fly Chinese birds and ,
> ""PAF tech are waiting to receive J-10 c jet fighters, any time """
> 
> I do not know, what that mean.




Just another hint that "confirms" the already semi-official rumour, taht the PAF might get J-10Cs soon.

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## maverick1977

Yes my sources are sharing anytime after Nov this year or may be by March. Sq 7 Bandits are to be equipped with J10C. 
The second squardon is rumored to be raised somewhere in Balochiatan, most likely new PAF cantonment in Turbut ..

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## luciferdd

Deino said:


> Just another hint that "confirms" the already semi-official rumour, taht the PAF might get J-10Cs soon.



The contract has been signed months ago and the fighters are under construction in CAS now, all above are from 杨基跟施佬.
BTW,the fighter that purchased by PAF will be a cost-down version==青春版 probeblely，Due to the lack of procurement funds.And these fighters will powered by WS-10 serise engines.

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## Deino

luciferdd said:


> The contract has been signed months ago and the fighters are under construction in CAS now, all above are from 杨基跟施佬.




Who is this?


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## luciferdd

Deino said:


> Who is this?



Military media reporter

if you know chinese you can click the link:https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1xq4y1N7Lt


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## HRK

luciferdd said:


> BTW,the fighter that purchased by PAF will be a cost-down version


if possible could you expand on this quoted point ..... ???

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## luciferdd

HRK said:


> if possible could you expand on this quoted point ..... ???



Sorry,they didn't talk about the details.

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## serenity

The military commentators are saying the price of J-10C that is similar to ones used by PLAAF is a bit too high for Pakistan if many units are to be purchased. Therefore the final sold version will be reduced in price. Probably meaning some certain systems are removed or exchanged with less expensive ones.

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## siegecrossbow

luciferdd said:


> The contract has been signed months ago and the fighters are under construction in CAS now, all above are from 杨基跟施佬.
> BTW,the fighter that purchased by PAF will be a cost-down version==青春版 probeblely，Due to the lack of procurement funds.And these fighters will powered by WS-10 serise engines.



If their show gets shutdown then we know who to blame.


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## luciferdd

siegecrossbow said:


> If their show gets shutdown then we know who to blame.


国外或者外贸的装备随便谈没事，保密条例基本不管的。


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## iLION12345_1

serenity said:


> The military commentators are saying the price of J-10C that is similar to ones used by PLAAF is a bit too high for Pakistan if many units are to be purchased. Therefore the final sold version will be reduced in price. Probably meaning some certain systems are removed or exchanged with less expensive ones.


It makes sense from another perspective too. J-10C is obviously a multi-role fighter, however PAF wishes to employ it mainly as an A2A fighter for now, so removing certain things that don’t have An effect on its A2A capability will reduce the price and allow the PAF to buy more, and maybe even increase range and reduce weight, however I doubt that since the things that get removed will likely not be that big.

However this also means that PAF may be changing certain aspects of it that it does need to be better, in this regard the PAF J-10C might have different radars and the newer HUDs that were seen a little while back only. So basically it is a more PAF-specific version of the aircraft, not necessarily a downgrade.

There is flexibility in this however, PAF may get different versions later and given the relationship between the two countries the doors to future upgrades will easily remain open for the PAF. As well as chances of other technology trickling down into JF-17.

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## serenity

iLION12345_1 said:


> It makes sense from another perspective too. J-10C is obviously a multi-role fighter, however PAF wishes to employ it mainly as an A2A fighter for now, so removing certain things that don’t have An effect on its A2A capability will reduce the price and allow the PAF to buy more, and maybe even increase range and reduce weight, however I doubt that since the things that get removed will likely not be that big.
> 
> However this also means that PAF may be changing certain aspects of it that it does need to be better, in this regard the PAF J-10C might have different radars and the newer HUDs that were seen a little while back only. So basically it is a more PAF-specific version of the aircraft, not necessarily a downgrade.
> 
> There is flexibility in this however, PAF may get different versions later and given the relationship between the two countries the doors to future upgrades will easily remain open for the PAF. As well as chances of other technology trickling down into JF-17.



I do not think a totally new AESA for a Pakistan J-10 will be developed. Such a project will end up costing more because Pakistan will need to pay for the development cost even if China makes zero profit from radar development and the J-10 at least it will be the minimum per unit cost just like when PLAAF pays for J-10.

The J-10C's AESA is second gen fighter AESA from China. Unless the development of a third gen is done for some reason for China's own J-10C+ for example, then Pakistan alone will certainly not have any new radar. Only existing one. Existing one also keeps cost down since it is already now like more than 6 years old and mass produced so with more orders, cost comes down.

The radar is also said to be better than Su-35's PESA even though Irbis has more power rating specifications the wave forming capabilities and low interception is nothing comparable.

The JF-17 block 3's AESAs development are different matter because here we have about 200 units that can receive upgrades so there is much more gain in capability and money involved or money saved due to mass application and there is the new block 3. It is also I suspect much less expensive radars than J-10C's but if Pakistan buys J-10C I think it should use the same radar as PLAAF's with very minor changes due to how PAF operate fighters and IFF related things.

Why I do not think the PLAAF will be bothered for 3rd gen and onwards AESA for J-10 developments is because no new weapons have been introduced. 2nd gen AESA for J-10C is enough for PL-15 and the task for J-10C in PLAAF roles. It is the numbers fighter for PLAAF and doesn't need to track 20 targets and engage 8 for example so its computing power doesn't require that level and doesn't have the number of missiles or range for that sort of fighting unlike J-16.

New things will cost much more especially if developed just for PAF. I think they will just remove some equipment hopefully are things unnecessary for PAF and that's it. The job is to keep costs down as much as possible. You cannot outspend India but need to find advantages in what you do spend. They make it easy since Rafale is crazy expensive but hopefully the Chinese teams help PAF determine exactly the most optimal purchase and keep costs down while not sacrificing capability. Personally I do not think Rafale's EW is anything impressive in reality. China and USA spend the most in the world on EW technologies even to build EMP weapons since 2000s and since China determines that the USA is the most advanced in EW, it needs to understand the most and counter it. France played around with some active cancellation with signal sampling. This sort of technology is honestly nothing very groundbreaking in this era.

I mean now we have satellite constellation since 2010s with direct phone fast data linking like even if you are outside 4G network in 2010s, some special data linking can be formed. 6G technology is being tested and lots of satellites which expand network centric warfare into space as additional layer.

Drones in China can provide many kinds of signals service for thousands of users per drone. Sampling and active cancellation is not something the Chinese teams are clueless about at all. In fact I think early J-10s even J-10A already featured similar SPECTRA capability against Vietnam in the past. Vietnam sent some Su-30s and China sent one or two J-10A and blinded the Su-30s totally. Even J-10A has similar protrusion as Rafale at the canards for either the passive or active components of signals sampling or sending.

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## iLION12345_1

serenity said:


> I do not think a totally new AESA for a Pakistan J-10 will be developed. Such a project will end up costing more because Pakistan will need to pay for the development cost even if China makes zero profit from radar development and the J-10 at least it will be the minimum per unit cost just like when PLAAF pays for J-10.
> 
> The J-10C's AESA is second gen fighter AESA from China. Unless the development of a third gen is done for some reason for China's own J-10C+ for example, then Pakistan alone will certainly not have any new radar. Only existing one. Existing one also keeps cost down since it is already now like more than 6 years old and mass produced so with more orders, cost comes down.
> 
> The radar is also said to be better than Su-35's PESA even though Irbis has more power rating specifications the wave forming capabilities and low interception is nothing comparable.
> 
> The JF-17 block 3's AESAs development are different matter because here we have about 200 units that can receive upgrades so there is much more gain in capability and money involved or money saved due to mass application and there is the new block 3. It is also I suspect much less expensive radars than J-10C's but if Pakistan buys J-10C I think it should use the same radar as PLAAF's with very minor changes due to how PAF operate fighters and IFF related things.
> 
> Why I do not think the PLAAF will be bothered for 3rd gen and onwards AESA for J-10 developments is because no new weapons have been introduced. 2nd gen AESA for J-10C is enough for PL-15 and the task for J-10C in PLAAF roles. It is the numbers fighter for PLAAF and doesn't need to track 20 targets and engage 8 for example so its computing power doesn't require that level and doesn't have the number of missiles or range for that sort of fighting unlike J-16.
> 
> New things will cost much more especially if developed just for PAF. I think they will just remove some equipment hopefully are things unnecessary for PAF and that's it. The job is to keep costs down as much as possible. You cannot outspend India but need to find advantages in what you do spend. They make it easy since Rafale is crazy expensive but hopefully the Chinese teams help PAF determine exactly the most optimal purchase and keep costs down while not sacrificing capability. Personally I do not think Rafale's EW is anything impressive in reality. China and USA spend the most in the world on EW technologies even to build EMP weapons since 2000s and since China determines that the USA is the most advanced in EW, it needs to understand the most and counter it. France played around with some active cancellation with signal sampling. This sort of technology is honestly nothing very groundbreaking in this era.
> 
> I mean now we have satellite constellation since 2010s with direct phone fast data linking like even if you are outside 4G network in 2010s, some special data linking can be formed. 6G technology is being tested and lots of satellites which expand network centric warfare into space as additional layer.
> 
> Drones in China can provide many kinds of signals service for thousands of users per drone. Sampling and active cancellation is not something the Chinese teams are clueless about at all. In fact I think early J-10s even J-10A already featured similar SPECTRA capability against Vietnam in the past. Vietnam sent some Su-30s and China sent one or two J-10A and blinded the Su-30s totally. Even J-10A has similar protrusion as Rafale at the canards for either the passive or active components of signals sampling or sending.


I agree with the rest of what you said, but I didn’t mean a new AESA for Pakistani J-10Cs, just a _*different*_ one. A new one would obviously cost a lot more and is unrealistic.

China doesn’t make one 2nd Gen AESA, even the J-10 from my memory doesn’t use a single type (given the radomes shape), I meant more along the lines of them changing it to make it more similar to the JFs (upscaled?) or just modified for certain things (thinking off How F7PG project went back in the day). Making it closer to JFs radar might actually save money instead, as long as it doesn’t negatively effect performance.


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## serenity

iLION12345_1 said:


> I agree with the rest of what you said, but I didn’t mean a new AESA for Pakistani J-10Cs, just a _*different*_ one. A new one would obviously cost a lot more and is unrealistic.
> 
> China doesn’t make one 2nd Gen AESA, even the J-10 from my memory doesn’t use a single type (given the radomes shape), I meant more along the lines of them changing it to make it more similar to the JFs (upscaled?) or just modified for certain things (thinking off How F7PG project went back in the day). Making it closer to JFs radar might actually save money instead, as long as it doesn’t negatively effect performance.



Yes it has more than one type of 2nd gen AESA since J-16's AESA and J-10C's are both part of 2nd gen and also let's include the J-11D's which is now being used for J-11B upgrades.

But even out of these three, only the J-10C's fit the J-10 and is specifically designed for it. When you say China has more than one 2nd gen for just J-10 fighter platform, I do not know what you mean. They have some slight differences in between them maybe for example the first J-10C from around 2017 with radar surely completed and tested on even J-10B models well before 2017. That particular radar might be slightly different to J-10C produced in 2021 but they should be considered the same platform. So any J-10C Pakistan buys will have a J-10C radar that has been developed already of course with changes due to operations between difference airforces.

Developing a new AESA is extremely difficult and expensive. Producing a new one may not be so difficult but comes at cost of manufacturing capacity shared between more product lines or cost of setting totally new production chain. For this reason I doubt a new AESA will be developed or produced for Pakistan. It will be some form of J-10C's current radar from 2021 just with the slight differences that are just necessary for PAF.

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## applesauce

serenity said:


> Yes it has more than one type of 2nd gen AESA since J-16's AESA and J-10C's are both part of 2nd gen and also let's include the J-11D's which is now being used for J-11B upgrades.
> 
> But even out of these three, only the J-10C's fit the J-10 and is specifically designed for it. When you say China has more than one 2nd gen for just J-10 fighter platform, I do not know what you mean. They have some slight differences in between them maybe for example the first J-10C from around 2017 with radar surely completed and tested on even J-10B models well before 2017. That particular radar might be slightly different to J-10C produced in 2021 but they should be considered the same platform. So any J-10C Pakistan buys will have a J-10C radar that has been developed already of course with changes due to operations between difference airforces.
> 
> Developing a new AESA is extremely difficult and expensive. Producing a new one may not be so difficult but comes at cost of manufacturing capacity shared between more product lines or cost of setting totally new production chain. For this reason I doubt a new AESA will be developed or produced for Pakistan. It will be some form of J-10C's current radar from 2021 just with the slight differences that are just necessary for PAF.



there were multiple AESA radars proposed for the j-10C, only one won out and is installed of course, but there were other prototypes made.

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## serenity

applesauce said:


> there were multiple AESA radars proposed for the j-10C, only one won out and is installed of course, but there were other prototypes made.



Yeah definitely but do you thiink those would be used for Pakistan's J-10? I doubt it. Unless they finish those products for Pakistan which would cost more money than the existing J-10C's radar. And since the existing one is completed and better since it won, then why bother spending money to complete the other one?


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## HRK

serenity said:


> Yeah definitely but do you thiink those would be used for Pakistan's J-10? I doubt it. Unless they finish those products for Pakistan which would cost more money than the existing J-10C's radar. And since the existing one is completed and better since it won, then why bother spending money to complete the other one?


OR may be Pakistan is going to have commonality of AESA radar for entire fleet .... ???

I mean sam as will be used in JF-17 or any other version of already develop KLJ-7A radar fro J-10s .... ???


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## serenity

HRK said:


> OR may be Pakistan is going to have commonality of AESA radar for entire fleet .... ???
> 
> I mean sam as will be used in JF-17 or any other version of already develop KLJ-7A radar fro J-10s .... ???



It could be but the JF-17's AESA would be much smaller. Will PAF buy J-10C with existing J-10C radar or choose to fit it with JF-17 block 3's radar? I would choose existing J-10C radar since it should be more suited for the J-10C and is a larger and more powerful AESA. It also is already available so no need to develop anything new. I don't think PAF will change anything related to radar to make J-10C cheaper to buy. It could be many other equipment that is unnecessary.

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## siegecrossbow

serenity said:


> It could be but the JF-17's AESA would be much smaller. *Will PAF buy J-10C with existing J-10C radar or choose to fit it with JF-17 block 3's radar*? I would choose existing J-10C radar since it should be more suited for the J-10C and is a larger and more powerful AESA. It also is already available so no need to develop anything new. I don't think PAF will change anything related to radar to make J-10C cheaper to buy. It could be many other equipment that is unnecessary.



If that's the case then why even bother buying the J-10C? I think that range and air to surface capabilities might be neutered.

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## serenity

siegecrossbow said:


> If that's the case then why even bother buying the J-10C? I think that range and air to surface capabilities might be neutered.



What do you mean? I am saying they will go for J-10C with existing J-10C radar. They will not develop a new one like some are saying. They will also not be using same radar as JF-17 block 3.

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## siegecrossbow

serenity said:


> What do you mean? I am saying they will go for J-10C with existing J-10C radar. They will not develop a new one like some are saying. They will also not be using same radar as JF-17 block 3.



I was agreeing with you lol.

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## mdmm

I heard samething that, when the contract was signed between C and P , there was no such thing to alter the parts, Radar and Missiles for expected J-10c for Pakistan. And now there were news that most of J-10 C are almost ready since a few months ago in China.
Because of having a large numbers of J-10 C , China is now making only J-20 for their Chinese army.

serenity, post: 13336149, member: 2062"]
What do you mean? I am saying they will go for J-10C with existing J-10C radar. They will not develop a new one like some are saying. They will also not be using same radar as JF-17 block 3.
[/QUOTE]

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## luciferdd

mdmm said:


> I heard samething that, when the contract was signed between C and P , there was no such thing to alter the parts, Radar and Missiles for expected J-10c for Pakistan. And now there were news that most of J-10 C are almost ready since a few months ago in China.
> Because of having a large numbers of J-10 C , China is now making only J-20 for their Chinese army.
> 
> serenity, post: 13336149, member: 2062"]
> What do you mean? I am saying they will go for J-10C with existing J-10C radar. They will not develop a new one like some are saying. They will also not be using same radar as JF-17 block 3.


[/QUOTE]
yes，IMO maybe some equiments will be different for example a different ECM，IFF and a upgraded HUD etc, but the main equiments will be the same for example the radar and engine.And the last chinese government will give a big discount to PAF,so the price of the fighters will be very nice just like four 054A FFGs.

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## Ali_Baba

There is a big advantage in PAF operating 1 platform that China also operates. It means war time attritions can be easier to replace and emergencies deliveries can be done quickly.

This can only be the case if PAF version is the same as the Chinese variant. So - if PAF is getting the J10, then are both sides working on a common standard that meets both their needs and possibiliy one based off the avonics of the JF17 Block III as the core. ie J10D ?

China has suggested that PAF not make to many custom requirements, in China's case they are thinking of the situation when they provided F7PGs on an emergency basis during the 2000's standoff with India ...... ( and a lesson that PAF has forgotten about ?? ).

China will also buy in bulk a J10D with a chinese engine, as will Pakistan and it will be common version that will allow both air arms to inter-operate easier(eg over Kashmir ) and also provide an emergency/wartime pipleline to the PAF for attrition losses ...

This is my theory - but the only one that seems logical and meets the needs of both PAF and China .


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## Deino

Ali_Baba said:


> There is a big advantage in PAF operating 1 platform that China also operates. It means war time attritions can be easier to replace and emergencies deliveries can be done quickly.
> 
> This can only be the case if PAF version is the same as the Chinese variant. So - if PAF is getting the J10, then are both sides working on a common standard that meets both their needs and possibiliy one based off the avonics of the JF17 Block III as the core. ie J10D ?
> 
> China has suggested that PAF not make to many custom requirements, in China's case they are thinking of the situation when they provided F7PGs on an emergency basis during the 2000's standoff with India ...... ( and a lesson that PAF has forgotten about ?? ).
> 
> China will also buy in bulk a J10D with a chinese engine, as will Pakistan and it will be common version that will allow both air arms to inter-operate easier(eg over Kashmir ) and also provide an emergency/wartime pipleline to the PAF for attrition losses ...
> 
> This is my theory - but the only one that seems logical and meets the needs of both PAF and China .




There is NO J-10D and by the way, China is already "buying in bulk a *J10C* with a chinese engine" namely the WS-10B and even more from what we hear, the Pakistani J-10Cs lack certain systems due to budget issues. As such it the PLAAF ones are already more capable.

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## mdmm

Deino said:


> There is NO J-10D!


 I agree with you DEINO.
But Statements by Ali Baba and luciferdd are totally wrong and I do not agree.
Both used imagination, without any proof.

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## Cookie Monster

HRK said:


> OR may be Pakistan is going to have commonality of AESA radar for entire fleet .... ???
> 
> I mean sam as will be used in JF-17 or any other version of already develop KLJ-7A radar fro J-10s .... ???


J10 can support a bigger radar(with more TRMs)...so it wouldn't make much sense to give it the same radar as that of a light fighter...
...the whole point of acquiring J10 is bcuz of the more capabilities it offers(including its bigger AESA radar) as compared to JF17. If that was to be knocked down to that of JF17s level...that's one less reason to go for J10.

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## mdmm

Yes-Because Pakistan is buying J-10 C due to additional features and tolls, which are not found in JF-17.Block 3 .
And J-10 C could be upgraded in future.

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## Windjammer

A formation of J-10C armed with a deadly payload of PL10E & PL15. Missiles.

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## kuge

Windjammer said:


> A formation of J-10C armed with a deadly payload of PL10E & PL15. Missiles.
> 
> View attachment 782571


how come the engines are AL-31?


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## siegecrossbow

kuge said:


> how come the engines are AL-31?



They didn’t start using WS-10 until the middle of the 4th batch.

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## kursed

Deino said:


> There is NO J-10D and by the way, China is already "buying in bulk a *J10C* with a chinese engine" namely the WS-10B and even more from what we hear, the Pakistani J-10Cs lack certain systems due to budget issues. As such it the PLAAF ones are already more capable.


Deino, other than export version limitations, PAF J-10s will not lack any particular subsystems. This is absolutely certain.

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## Deino

kursed said:


> Deino, other than export version limitations, PAF J-10s will not lack any particular subsystems. This is absolutely certain.




In fact that statement surprised me a lot when it was first mentioned; do you have any idea who noted/claimed this first?


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## untitled

Does the induction of WS-10 powered J-10s also mean that any future versions of JF-17s (if any) will also be powered by WS-10s?


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## FuturePAF

Ali_Baba said:


> There is a big advantage in PAF operating 1 platform that China also operates. It means war time attritions can be easier to replace and emergencies deliveries can be done quickly.
> 
> This can only be the case if PAF version is the same as the Chinese variant. So - if PAF is getting the J10, then are both sides working on a common standard that meets both their needs and possibiliy one based off the avonics of the JF17 Block III as the core. ie J10D ?
> 
> China has suggested that PAF not make to many custom requirements, in China's case they are thinking of the situation when they provided F7PGs on an emergency basis during the 2000's standoff with India ...... ( and a lesson that PAF has forgotten about ?? ).
> 
> China will also buy in bulk a J10D with a chinese engine, as will Pakistan and it will be common version that will allow both air arms to inter-operate easier(eg over Kashmir ) and also provide an emergency/wartime pipleline to the PAF for attrition losses ...
> 
> This is my theory - but the only one that seems logical and meets the needs of both PAF and China .


That is a key necessity if interoperability or replacement of units lost due to attrition. I have always suggested one reason PAF should get the J-10C is because it could lease a large number in the event of a conflict breaking out. Perhaps train extra pilots for this eventuality, or cross train JF-17 pilots on the J-10, so that in the event of war, large numbers of J-10s can be flown to Hotan, and ferried over to make up the numerical differences.

the new IAF chief recently stated that IAF squadron numbers won’t exceed 35 for quite some time. Instead of the PAF buying more than 2-4 squadrons of J-10s, it could have an agreement to lease J-10s from China in the event of war. Spending the money saved on the economy or Project AZM.


untitled said:


> Does the induction of WS-10 powered J-10s also mean that any future versions of JF-17s (if any) will also be powered by WS-10s?


WS-10 wouldn’t fit the JF-17, but with more modern engines coming out of China, eventually the WS-19 maybe worth installing once it matures based on WS-10C/WS-15 engine technology, possibly by the end of the decade.

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## Deino

untitled said:


> Does the induction of WS-10 powered J-10s also mean that any future versions of JF-17s (if any) will also be powered by WS-10s?




No, the engine is too wide or the JF-17's fuselage too slim

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## kursed

Deino said:


> In fact that statement surprised me a lot when it was first mentioned; do you have any idea who noted/claimed this first?


I believe the statement originated from the Chinese forums / Weibo, but knowing how hard negotiations were from both sides on the deal, can say that it was just misinformation - at best.

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## siegecrossbow

untitled said:


> Does the induction of WS-10 powered J-10s also mean that any future versions of JF-17s (if any) will also be powered by WS-10s?



You can't shove a high thrust engine into a small fighter aircraft.

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## mdmm

Newspaper comparison of Chinese J-10CE (the foreign trade export version of the J-10C) for Pakistan and French fighter jets Rafale ::



https://inf.news/en/military/33eba5ac612ae72607c94af5b343dfda.html


"" According to its air show brochure, the J-10CE has a fuselage length of 17.3 meters, a fuselage height of 4.8 meters, and a wingspan of 11.5 meters on both sides. The actual maximum flight altitude can reach 15,000 meters. The maximum flight speed reaches 1500km/h, the combat radius is 1250km, and the fully loaded takeoff weight reaches 28 tons.
In contrast, the Rafale fighter is smaller than the J-10, with a fuselage length of 15.3 meters, a fuselage height of 5.34 meters, and a wingspan of 10.9 meters on both sides. The actual flight ceiling can be It reaches 15,000 meters, the maximum flight speed reaches 3062.5 km/h, the combat radius is 1093-1852 kilometers, and the full take-off weight reaches 21.5 tons.
Larger size, the weapon design of the J-10 is more advantageous than the Rafale. For example, the J-10 is equipped with active phased array radar, and the RBE-2AA active phased array radar of the Great Rafale fighter , The actual detection range is better than gusts. In air combat, the J-10CE has the advantage of situational awareness and weapon orientation that the Rafale fighter can't match in the line-of-sight combat—the helmet-mounted display. The Rafale fighter-equipped headset can only be equipped in the F4 batch a few years later.

Your expert comments ??

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## world of power

mdmm said:


> https://inf.news/en/military/33eba5ac612ae72607c94af5b343dfda.html
> 
> 
> Your expert comments ??


UNLIKELY based on so far;; First, such trade NEVER done for the decades although it always rumors since 2008 (Chengdu J-10 makes public debut at Zhuhai air show | News | Flight Global); many reported that china has long requested pakistan to pay at least $40M each J10 but pakistan rejected it Second, it is another rumor-style-report from indian media without any evidence; still we NEVER see any active progression from china like manufacturing export version of J10, training foreign pilots, or any implementing movements Third, pakistan is currently under financial crisis desperately looking for monetary helps from its neighbor countries or IMF; it currently spends about $8B for its annual defense budget but such jet acquisition project costs at least over $1B; overall pakistan has NO money and it CAN'T pay such money for the single project

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## kungfugymnast

mdmm said:


> Newspaper comparison of Chinese J-10CE (the foreign trade export version of the J-10C) for Pakistan and French fighter jets Rafale ::
> 
> 
> 
> https://inf.news/en/military/33eba5ac612ae72607c94af5b343dfda.html
> 
> 
> "" According to its air show brochure, the J-10CE has a fuselage length of 17.3 meters, a fuselage height of 4.8 meters, and a wingspan of 11.5 meters on both sides. The actual maximum flight altitude can reach 15,000 meters. The maximum flight speed reaches 1500km/h, the combat radius is 1250km, and the fully loaded takeoff weight reaches 28 tons.
> In contrast, the Rafale fighter is smaller than the J-10, with a fuselage length of 15.3 meters, a fuselage height of 5.34 meters, and a wingspan of 10.9 meters on both sides. The actual flight ceiling can be It reaches 15,000 meters, the maximum flight speed reaches 3062.5 km/h, the combat radius is 1093-1852 kilometers, and the full take-off weight reaches 21.5 tons.
> Larger size, the weapon design of the J-10 is more advantageous than the Rafale. For example, the J-10 is equipped with active phased array radar, and the RBE-2AA active phased array radar of the Great Rafale fighter , The actual detection range is better than gusts. In air combat, the J-10CE has the advantage of situational awareness and weapon orientation that the Rafale fighter can't match in the line-of-sight combat—the helmet-mounted display. The Rafale fighter-equipped headset can only be equipped in the F4 batch a few years later.
> 
> Your expert comments ??



The speed 3000kmh is too exaggerated. Both J-10C and rafale aerodynamic is not designed for speed but more towards low speed maneuverability. This is why both can't reach Mach 2, only max 1.8+ like F/A-18E.

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## siegecrossbow

kungfugymnast said:


> The speed 3000kmh is too exaggerated. Both J-10C and rafale aerodynamic is not designed for speed but more towards low speed maneuverability. This is why both can't reach Mach 2, only max 1.8+ like F/A-18E.



J-10A could reach Mach 2.0 but the high speed performance has taken a hit with B and C variants. That said, 4th gen fighters fly much slower when carrying external load. The F-15 could reach Mach 2.45 but rarely exceeds 2.0 during normal operation.

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## MH.Yang

untitled said:


> Does the induction of WS-10 powered J-10s also mean that any future versions of JF-17s (if any) will also be powered by WS-10s?



RD93 is a medium thrust engine and WS10 is a high thrust engine. The huge difference of thrust will lead to the disorder of aerodynamic layout, and finally reduce the combat effectiveness of the fighter. 
India once forcibly installed AL31F for MIG27, which finally led to the decline of fighter performance. Britain's replacement of the F4k engine also led to a decline in fighter performance.

So if you want to replace the WS10 with JF17, the aerodynamic layout, inlet and rear fuselage of JF17 will have to be modified. This is tantamount to redesigning a fighter. Moreover, JF17 using WS10 will no longer be a light fighter, but a medium fighter at the same level as F16 and Rafale. This will lead to a significant increase in aircraft manufacturing costs.

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## jupiter2007

MH.Yang said:


> RD93 is a medium thrust engine and WS10 is a high thrust engine. The huge difference of thrust will lead to the disorder of aerodynamic layout, and finally reduce the combat effectiveness of the fighter.
> India once forcibly installed AL31F for MIG27, which finally led to the decline of fighter performance. Britain's replacement of the F4k engine also led to a decline in fighter performance.
> 
> So if you want to replace the WS10 with JF17, the aerodynamic layout, inlet and rear fuselage of JF17 will have to be modified. This is tantamount to redesigning a fighter. Moreover, JF17 using WS10 will no longer be a light fighter, but a medium fighter at the same level as F16 and Rafale. This will lead to a significant increase in aircraft manufacturing costs.



Nicely explained to the newbie.

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## untitled

siegecrossbow said:


> You can't shove a high thrust engine into a small fighter aircraft.


Thanks but the posters above you have already explained that in a much polite manner



MH.Yang said:


> RD93 is a medium thrust engine and WS10 is a high thrust engine. The huge difference of thrust will lead to the disorder of aerodynamic layout, and finally reduce the combat effectiveness of the fighter.





> India once forcibly installed AL31F for MIG27, which finally led to the decline of fighter performance. Britain's replacement of the F4k engine also led to a decline in fighter performance.


Both had the right idea. Upgrading to turbofans does improve fuel efficiency (if done correctly). MiG-27 was not exactly a fighter but bomber and the British were supporting their local industry



> So if you want to replace the WS10 with JF17, the aerodynamic layout, inlet and rear fuselage of JF17 will have to be modified. This is tantamount to redesigning a fighter. Moreover, JF17 using WS10 will no longer be a light fighter, but a medium fighter at the same level as F16 and Rafale. This will lead to a significant increase in aircraft manufacturing costs.


Thanks for the detailed answer. The JF-17 powered by the RD93 was a compromise. PAF went for it because the French option was not available, the British too expensive and no mature Chinese engine available at the time. Were it not for the RD93 the JF-17 was pretty much doomed. Even in it's current state the RD93 powered JF-17 is not deemed fit by the PAF to replace the Mirages hence those jets soldier on. With a reliable engine from China now available and in use and with the possible acquisition of J-10, is it not time to re imagine the JF-17 around a WS-10 engine by making it a medium class fighter? PAF has been on the lookout for a better engine for the JF-17 from the beginning and at the start of every new batch we have to hear that same self soothing statement again and again that the PAF is 'happy' with the current powerplant.



jupiter2007 said:


> Nicely explained to the newbie.


Nice cheerleading... You seem like a pro


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## kungfugymnast

siegecrossbow said:


> J-10A could reach Mach 2.0 but the high speed performance has taken a hit with B and C variants. That said, 4th gen fighters fly much slower when carrying external load. The F-15 could reach Mach 2.45 but rarely exceeds 2.0 during normal operation.



J-10A was designed for speed with more aerodynamic design purely for air to air role. J-10B/C redesigned for better low maneuverability needed for dogfight and air to ground search and destroy roles. You will see J-10C flying more air to ground sorties in coming years more than air to air like F-16 while J-11B, J-16 provide air cover. This is why they didn't increase pylons for air to air missiles allocating more pylons for air to ground armaments instead.

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## JSCh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451442288656220162

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## Beast

JSCh said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451442288656220162


The Chinese pilot are extremely skillful to land the J-10 almost intact on riverbed.

Another AL-31F engine fault.

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## johncliu88

Beast said:


> The Chinese pilot are extremely skillful to land the J-10 almost intact on riverbed.
> 
> Another AL-31F engine fault.


There were several Russian engine issues in the past and I remembered several years ago, a J-10 crashed due to engine failure but the pilot ejected and landed safely.

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## Beast

johncliu88 said:


> There were several Russian engine issues in the past and I remembered several years ago, a J-10 crashed due to engine failure but the pilot ejected and landed safely.


There was a case of PLAAF SU-27BK crashed and the pilot didnt survived. Another case of Russian engine stalled.

So far, there is zero case of Chinese flanker crashed using domestic WS-10 engine. In case somebody doubt low available of Chinese domestic engine. J-11B, J-11BS, J-16 of more than 300 of them are using domestic engines.

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## MajesticPug

Beast said:


> There was a case of PLAAF SU-27BK crashed and the pilot didnt survived. Another case of Russian engine stalled.
> 
> So far, there is zero case of Chinese flanker crashed using domestic WS-10 engine. In case somebody doubt low available of Chinese domestic engine. J-11B, J-11BS, J-16 of more than 300 of them are using domestic engines.



A lot of Pak friends here believe in Russian engines because they 'HAD' believed. These beliefs were not based on scientific numbers, but mere past faith.

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## Sinnerman108

Beast said:


> There was a case of PLAAF SU-27BK crashed and the pilot didnt survived. Another case of Russian engine stalled.
> 
> So far, there is zero case of Chinese flanker crashed using domestic WS-10 engine. In case somebody doubt low available of Chinese domestic engine. J-11B, J-11BS, J-16 of more than 300 of them are using domestic engines.



The only solution to this problem is to have a twin engine plane. 
Thus putting less stress on the single engine; and keeping it well within the material limitations. 

The closest example, is that of a naturally aspirated engine Vs Turbo charged. 
The Turbo charged engine will fail much before natural aspirated engine.


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## Beast

Sinnerman108 said:


> The only solution to this problem is to have a twin engine plane.
> Thus putting less stress on the single engine; and keeping it well within the material limitations.
> 
> The closest example, is that of a naturally aspirated engine Vs Turbo charged.
> The Turbo charged engine will fail much before natural aspirated engine.


The solution is solved. Use domestic engine which is much higher quality and durability.
Check my previous post, No domestic engine fighter jet has any accident due to engine stalled.
Russian engine long has quality problem in China, India, Malaysia and Algeria.

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## Ali_Baba

Beast said:


> The solution is solved. Use domestic engine which is much higher quality and durability.
> Check my previous post, No domestic engine fighter jet has any accident due to engine stalled.
> Russian engine long has quality problem in China, India, Malaysia and Algeria.



There is obviously a "design-flaw" in the AL-31F which Russia cannot fix or refuses to fix or China refuses to pay to fix ? ( I dont know ).. but a design flaw is different to saying local is higher quality and durability. Durability and quality is governed by the lifespan hours of the engine, the intervals for servicing and fuel efficiency and inital procurements costs and overall lifecycle costs - these values have not been published by China's aerospace industry to any extent for its military engines. Additionally, engine spool time is an important factor - and we dont know how that compares to Russian or western engines.

Ask a fighter pilot how important engine spool time and fuel efficient is to them....

So - yes, fewer crashes with Chinese engines but if they need to be service more frequently, have slower engine spool times, and last only half as long then that is an indication of "poor quality" - and not just crashes due to design flaw, etc..

I dont know the values for the chinese engines versus Russian - i am saying you have to be more quantitative about those descriptions of what is better and that is more than simply saying it is better.


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## Beast

Ali_Baba said:


> There is obviously a "design-flaw" in the AL-31F which Russia cannot fix or refuses to fix or China refuses to pay to fix ? ( I dont know ).. but a design flaw is different to saying local is higher quality and durability. Durability and quality is governed by the lifespan hours of the engine, the intervals for servicing and fuel efficiency and inital procurements costs and overall lifecycle costs - these values have not been published by China's aerospace industry to any extent for its military engines. Additionally, engine spool time is an important factor - and we dont know how that compares to Russian or western engines.
> 
> Ask a fighter pilot how important engine spool time and fuel efficient is to them....
> 
> So - yes, fewer crashes with Chinese engines but if they need to be service more frequently, have slower engine spool times, and last only half as long then that is an indication of "poor quality" - and not just crashes due to design flaw, etc..
> 
> I dont know the values for the chinese engines versus Russian - i am saying you have to be more quantitative about those descriptions of what is better and that is more than simply saying it is better.


Once again u are assuming Russian engine are better than Chinese one. That is a perception Indian and western keep trying to shove into the mass mind by creating a lot of misinfo and fabricated article.

You will be surprised China can even produced reliable gas turbine for warship better spec than US LM2500. While Russian naval modernusation couldn't go forward due to lack of gas turbine.

Can you prove any Chinese WS-10 equipped fighter jet has crashed so far due to engine stall?


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## Ali_Baba

Beast said:


> Once again u are assuming Russian engine are better than Chinese one. That is a perception Indian and western keep trying to shove into the mass mind by creating a lot of misinfo and fabricated article.
> 
> You will be surprised China can even produced reliable gas turbine for warship better spec than US LM2500. While Russian naval modernusation couldn't go forward due to lack of gas turbine.
> 
> Can you prove any Chinese WS-10 equipped fighter jet has crashed so far due to engine stall?



I am not saying Russian egnines are better - I am saying right now - Russians are a known quantity for better or worse. There is transparency in their products. Right now, there is none for Chinese military jet engines. Chinese systems could be better or not - but until there is some transparency - we will not know formally and therefore it is not possible to have any debate or conversation on the matter other than "my one is bigger and better, longer and harder than yours because i say so.." ones we have right now.

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## Beast

Ali_Baba said:


> I am not saying Russian egnines are better - I am saying right now - Russians are a known quantity for better or worse. There is transparency in their products. Right now, there is none for Chinese military jet engines. Chinese systems could be better or not - but until there is some transparency - we will not know formally and therefore it is not possible to have any debate or conversation on the matter other than "my one is bigger and better, longer and harder than yours because i say so.." ones we have right now.


What kind of transparency for Russian engine? Care to share? I didnt know there is transparency for Russian engine? All I know Russian engine are well known for low lifespan and low reliability. Giving countries like India, China, Malaysia and Algeria plenty of problem and low combat time. 

Fortunately, those times are over. China military has enter an era of full domestic engine times.

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## kungfugymnast

Beast said:


> What kind of transparency for Russian engine? Care to share? I didnt know there is transparency for Russian engine? All I know Russian engine are well known for low lifespan and low reliability. Giving countries like India, China, Malaysia and Algeria plenty of problem and low combat time.
> 
> Fortunately, those times are over. China military has enter an era of full domestic engine times.



You need to fix english comprehension, you got Ali Baba wrong. From his post, Ali Baba said Russian engine not good, he never said good at all. Ali Baba said China engine better.

他说俄罗斯的飞机机器不好。他完全没有说俄罗斯机器好。再看他写了什么。


Ali_Baba said:


> I am not saying Russian egnines are better - I am saying right now - Russians are a known quantity for better or worse. There is transparency in their products. Right now, there is none for Chinese military jet engines. Chinese systems could be better or not - but until there is some transparency - we will not know formally and therefore it is not possible to have any debate or conversation on the matter other than "my one is bigger and better, longer and harder than yours because i say so.." ones we have right now.



I have explained to him in Chinese.


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## Beast

kungfugymnast said:


> You need to fix english comprehension, you got Ali Baba wrong. From his post, Ali Baba said Russian engine not good, he never said good at all. Ali Baba said China engine better.
> 
> 他说俄罗斯的飞机机器不好。他完全没有说俄罗斯机器好。再看他写了什么。
> 
> 
> I have explained to him in Chinese.


Absolutely nonsense from you...

_I am not saying Russian egnines are better - I am saying right now - Russians are a known quantity for better or worse. There is transparency in their products. Right now, there is none for Chinese military jet engines. Chinese systems could be better or not - but until there is some transparency_

Nothing to suggest he says Chinese engine is better. The one need to have better english comprehension, is you...


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## Raider 21

Beast said:


> The Chinese pilot are extremely skillful to land the J-10 almost intact on riverbed.
> 
> Another AL-31F engine fault.


I am glad he or she is alive. 

On a lighter note, I am even more glad I didn't read that they did this because they didn't want to exploit their full potential to the western world........


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## kungfugymnast

Beast said:


> Absolutely nonsense from you...
> 
> _I am not saying Russian egnines are better - I am saying right now - Russians are a known quantity for better or worse. There is transparency in their products. Right now, there is none for Chinese military jet engines. Chinese systems could be better or not - but until there is some transparency_
> 
> Nothing to suggest he says Chinese engine is better. The one need to have better english comprehension, is you...



He didn't say Russian engines are better neither. WS-10B/C are indeed better than AL-31 at the moment. Now that there's new fighter procurement project in few countries for budget under US$80million, few fighters have been shortlisted = J-10C vs Gripen vs F-16V. In terms of maneuverability, avionics, weapon system, do you have any comment?


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## luciferdd

kungfugymnast said:


> He didn't say Russian engines are better neither. WS-10B/C are indeed better than AL-31 at the moment. Now that there's new fighter procurement project in few countries for budget under US$80million, few fighters have been shortlisted = J-10C vs Gripen vs F-16V. In terms of maneuverability, avionics, weapon system, do you have any comment?



Actually Russian aeromotor are still slightly better than Chinese engines,it is a gap of about five years.But China is Investing huge amounts of money to develop our own engine technology,I'm confident that we can catch up or even beyond the russian within 10 years.

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## kungfugymnast

luciferdd said:


> Actually Russian aeromotor are still slightly better than Chinese engines,it is a gap of about five years.But China is Investing huge amounts of money to develop our own engine technology,I'm confident that we can catch up or even beyond the russian within 10 years.



What confirmed so far are Russian AL-41 and Izdeliye engines are their benchmark engines. China purchased the Su-35 in order to perfect the WS-10B to WS-10C. WS-15 would take technology from AL-41 hopefully able to perfect it. So far no request on acquiring Russian Izdeliye 40,000lb thrust engjne yet.

Would you pick the J-10C, Mig-35, F-16V or Gripen?


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## luciferdd

kungfugymnast said:


> What confirmed so far are Russian AL-41 and Izdeliye engines are their benchmark engines. China purchased the Su-35 in order to perfect the WS-10B to WS-10C. WS-15 would take technology from AL-41 hopefully able to perfect it. So far no request on acquiring Russian Izdeliye 40,000lb thrust engjne yet.
> 
> Would you pick the J-10C, Mig-35, F-16V or Gripen?


1.WS-10IPE use some techs from WS-15 poject but not 117S to improve the performace for example the next generation single crystal turbine disk blade.
2.Surely F16V,as long as you don't have a limitt from budget.F16V is 5years later and piled with many of the latest technologies at any cost to attract the foreign buyers,while J-10C is a compromise project between cost and performance for PLAF as a second-class fighter.

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## MajesticPug

luciferdd said:


> 1.WS-10IPE use some techs from WS-15 poject but not 117S to improve the performace for example the next generation single crystal turbine disk blade.
> 2.Surely F16V,as long as you don't have a limitt from budget.F16V is 5years later and piled with many of the latest technologies at any cost to attract the foreign buyers,while J-10C is a compromise project between cost and performance for PLAF as a second-class fighter.



A lot of Taiwan nonsense. How is F16V designed to attract foreign buyers when the premium Western fighter jets are F35, Rafale, and Typhoon? F16V is merely another attempt to sell to cheaper countries with small defense budgets or those NOT qualified to be America's friends by retrofitting a 40+ year old airframe. F16V has no stealth signature when J10C makes use of many advanced material and stealth design. In any one-on-one engagement, J10C will shoot F16V down without the F16V pilot knowing what hits him. 

As for your lies about J10C being a compromise between cost and performance. Here's what will send you high flying to India and Taiwan: Any single engine jet is designed for lower cost of operations and maintenance compared to a heavy fighter jet that has twin engines. Hello? Your brain still there? Or buzzing in too much cow dun?


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## luciferdd

MajesticPug said:


> A lot of Taiwan nonsense. How is F16V designed to attract foreign buyers when the premium Western fighter jets are F35, Rafale, and Typhoon? F16V is merely another attempt to sell to cheaper countries with small defense budgets or those NOT qualified to be America's friends by retrofitting a 40+ year old airframe. F16V has no stealth signature when J10C makes use of many advanced material and stealth design. In any one-on-one engagement, J10C will shoot F16V down without the F16V pilot knowing what hits him.
> 
> As for your lies about J10C being a compromise between cost and performance. Here's what will send you high flying to India and Taiwan: Any single engine jet is designed for lower cost of operations and maintenance compared to a heavy fighter jet that has twin engines. Hello? Your brain still there? Or buzzing in too much cow dun?



Upgrade Kit for F16V also expensive too,it will at lest spend you 80M$ with fully parts include new GaN AESE RADAR and new F110-129 engine and towed temptation etc.

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## Scorpiooo

Al 41 belong to same size class of Al 31 ?
Same question for ws10c and ws15 ?


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## Shotgunner51

Scorpiooo said:


> Al 41 belong to same size class of Al 31 ?
> Same question for ws10c and ws15 ?


Yes, same class. With newer tech/design, new models naturally have better performance/indicators than older ones despite being marginal.


MajesticPug said:


> Any single engine jet is designed for lower cost of operations and maintenance compared to a heavy fighter jet that has twin engines.


True. Even for same weight class of medium jet, a single-high-thrust engine config is easier/cheaper to maintain than a twin-medium-thrust engine config.

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## kungfugymnast

luciferdd said:


> 1.WS-10IPE use some techs from WS-15 poject but not 117S to improve the performace for example the next generation single crystal turbine disk blade.
> 2.Surely F16V,as long as you don't have a limitt from budget.F16V is 5years later and piled with many of the latest technologies at any cost to attract the foreign buyers,while J-10C is a compromise project between cost and performance for PLAF as a second-class fighter.



Which variant is WS-10IPE engine? Is it fitted in any fighter or still under development? 

I was expecting you to pick Gripen like others believing in their paper sweet talk. You chose F-16V instead which is a good choice. Avionics in F-16V proven with practical payload arrangement allowing it to carry more A-A & A-G missiles, bombs, rockets, miscellaneous stores making it a true multi-role fighter. The CFT solved the small 6,900lb internal fuel tank issue. 

The J-10C is redesigned for quality & low RCS but I don't really like its air to air missiles payload arrangement giving it just 2x PL-10E & 2x PL-15 (without flimsy dual rack) while leaving other pylons for bombs, fuel tanks. It will have to rid the PL-15 in order to carry air to ground missiles. By present standard, a medium sized fighter over 50ft long should carry 8 air to air missiles. J-10C is more suited for air to ground search and destroy role rather than air to air unless they change the inner large pylon to carry missiles removing its ability to hold 2 large fuel tanks underwings.


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## kungfugymnast

MajesticPug said:


> A lot of Taiwan nonsense. How is F16V designed to attract foreign buyers when the premium Western fighter jets are F35, Rafale, and Typhoon? F16V is merely another attempt to sell to cheaper countries with small defense budgets or those NOT qualified to be America's friends by retrofitting a 40+ year old airframe. F16V has no stealth signature when J10C makes use of many advanced material and stealth design. In any one-on-one engagement, J10C will shoot F16V down without the F16V pilot knowing what hits him.
> 
> As for your lies about J10C being a compromise between cost and performance. Here's what will send you high flying to India and Taiwan: Any single engine jet is designed for lower cost of operations and maintenance compared to a heavy fighter jet that has twin engines. Hello? Your brain still there? Or buzzing in too much cow dun?



F-35 is premium fighter with export variant reserved for US close allies only. India can't buy it unless entering alliance pact with US that India has to obey numbers of terms & conditions involving politics. 

EF2000 is nothing more than just an overpriced European fighter like Rafale bragging big on superiority to stealth aircraft level when these planes aren't even stealth. 

F-16V is considered US export market most affordable combat proven fighter. You can use it for air to air or air to ground anytime. US tend to use F-16 on air to ground sorties while F-15C flying escort. F-16 is considered low cost expendable, being smaller means harder for AAA to hit therefore suitable for search and destroy role taking out enemy air defenses, CAS, air base bombing run, etc.

The J-10C is trying to take the F-16 role but without the wingtip and less pylons for air to ground missiles. For example, the F-16V could carry 12x AGM-65G or 6x AGM-65G mix 6x CBU-97 while able to carry 2x AIM-9X, 2x AIM-120C7, 2x drop tanks under wing & 1x small 150gal drop tank on centerline. J-10C can't carry this many missiles, bombs, not even the Gripen, EF-2000, Rafale could.


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## MajesticPug

kungfugymnast said:


> F-35 is premium fighter with export variant reserved for US close allies only. India can't buy it unless entering alliance pact with US that India has to obey numbers of terms & conditions involving politics.
> 
> EF2000 is nothing more than just an overpriced European fighter like Rafale bragging big on superiority to stealth aircraft level when these planes aren't even stealth.
> 
> F-16V is considered US export market most affordable combat proven fighter. You can use it for air to air or air to ground anytime. US tend to use F-16 on air to ground sorties while F-15C flying escort. F-16 is considered low cost expendable, being smaller means harder for AAA to hit therefore suitable for search and destroy role taking out enemy air defenses, CAS, air base bombing run, etc.
> 
> The J-10C is trying to take the F-16 role but without the wingtip and less pylons for air to ground missiles. For example, the F-16V could carry 12x AGM-65G or 6x AGM-65G mix 6x CBU-97 while able to carry 2x AIM-9X, 2x AIM-120C7, 2x drop tanks under wing & 1x small 150gal drop tank on centerline. J-10C can't carry this many missiles, bombs, not even the Gripen, EF-2000, Rafale could.



Yo.. your listing of payloads F16V can carry lost me but I think a B-52 probably carries more than a F16V can. But my point is still valid: regardless of a F16V or B-52, a J10C will likely shoot down these two before either pilot knows what hits its plane. Know this -- the J10 concept was developed at a time China was trying to beef up its air defense when the prime of its fighter jets were J7's. So J10's were not intended for air-to-ground attacks or invading into Japan or SKorea. Despite adding more air-to-ground weaponry to J10's since its inception, the use of advaced materials and refining the design to reduce RCS made J10C more lethal in the air than its added role of ground supports. In fact, J10C has proven its successes against Su30, Su35's, and at times the J16.

PAF knows this very well. Its purchase of J10C's was to defend against the Indian Su30 and Rafales, not to support Pakistan army invading into India.

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## kungfugymnast

MajesticPug said:


> Yo.. your listing of payloads F16V can carry lost me but I think a B-52 probably carries more than a F16V can. But my point is still valid: regardless of a F16V or B-52, a J10C will likely shoot down these two before either pilot knows what hits its plane. Know this -- the J10 concept was developed at a time China was trying to beef up its air defense when the prime of its fighter jets were J7's. So J10's were not intended for air-to-ground attacks or invading into Japan or SKorea. Despite adding more air-to-ground weaponry to J10's since its inception, the use of advaced materials and refining the design to reduce RCS made J10C more lethal in the air than its added role of ground supports. In fact, J10C has proven its successes against Su30, Su35's, and at times the J16.
> 
> PAF knows this very well. Its purchase of J10C's was to defend against the Indian Su30 and Rafales, not to support Pakistan army invading into India.



Bringing B-52 into this is totally irrelevant when the topic is on affordable medium fighter purchase competition where J-10C is competing against F-16V, Gripen, Mig-35. Missile probability of kill against 4.5th generation fighter is around 50-60%, even lower with ECM on. If you're in J-10C carrying just 2x PL-10E & PL-15 and the enemy F-16V managed to spoof both PL-15, you'll be at disadvantage having to spoof 4x AIM-120C7/D before you can use your PL-10E. To ensure higher hit percentage, the F-16V would launch 2x AIM-120C7/D at a time. Looking at J-10C armaments configuration, it is more suited for air to ground role than air to air unless it could carry 8x air to air missiles. The twin rack on J-10C looks flimsy which could be the reason why PLAAF J-10C carrying 2+2 air to air missiles most of the time


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## MajesticPug

kungfugymnast said:


> Bringing B-52 into this is totally irrelevant when the topic is on affordable medium fighter purchase competition where J-10C is competing against F-16V, Gripen, Mig-35. Missile probability of kill against 4.5th generation fighter is around 50-60%, even lower with ECM on. If you're in J-10C carrying just 2x PL-10E & PL-15 and the enemy F-16V managed to spoof both PL-15, you'll be at disadvantage having to spoof 4x AIM-120C7/D before you can use your PL-10E. To ensure higher hit percentage, the F-16V would launch 2x AIM-120C7/D at a time. Looking at J-10C armaments configuration, it is more suited for air to ground role than air to air unless it could carry 8x air to air missiles. The twin rack on J-10C looks flimsy which could be the reason why PLAAF J-10C carrying 2+2 air to air missiles most of the time



Your observation proves J-10C was optimally designed for air-to-air operations, especially on a defensive role in its airspace. That was the motivation that gave the rise to J10's. You obviously missed these historical facts or intentionally ignored the facts for your narrative's convenience. I brought B-52 into the discussion to dispute your argument because having the higher payloads is not going to help in a shoot-out battle in the air -- assuming J10C's uses of low-RCS and other sensor techs borrowed from 5th-generation fighter jets help J10C detects its opponent first. In that end, F16V will fare no better than a B-52 if it were detected first and shot at with a BVR PL15.

FYI, whatever missiles you listed for the F16V DO NOT out gun the PL-15 in terms of range and homing technologies.

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## Shotgunner51

kungfugymnast said:


> EF2000 is nothing more than just an overpriced European fighter like Rafale bragging big on superiority to stealth aircraft level when these planes aren't even stealth.


Ain't that true, typical blown-out-of-proportion euro stuff!


kungfugymnast said:


> F-16V





kungfugymnast said:


> The J-10C


Now that's what we are talking about, real medium workhorses! Here is an opinion piece on 1V1 between the birds, quite a good read.

*[Analytics] Chinese J-10C vs US F-16V: Which fighter would prevail in an air*






J-10C '4++ generation' fighter jet pilot. Photo: Military Watch Magazine. Sketched by the Pan Pacific Agency.

Entering service in 2017 and 2018 respectively, the American F-16V and Chinese J-10C represent two of the most capable lightweight fighter jets in production today and considerable improvements over older baseline fourth generation designs. With each weighing approximately 13,000kg, deploying similarly sized radars, similar single engine configurations and similar weapons payloads, the aircraft are in many ways highly comparable. Both are being marketed for export today. Military Watch has observed both models.

The large majority of fighter jet classes in production today are configured with twin engines, from heavyweights such as the J-20 and F-15EX to medium designs such as the MiG-35 and Eurofighter, and even lightweight platforms such as the Kowsar and upcoming Taiwanese Brave Eagle. This places the J-10 and F-16 in a class of their own among modern fighter designs.

While other less prominent single engine designs are in production today, notably the Gripen, JF-17 and Tejas, these are all lighter and less capable than the American and Chinese platforms. The American F-35A is the only other prominent contemporary single engine fighter, although it is still very far from ready for high intensity combat and is unlikely to be until near the end of the decade. While the fifth generation design has considerable potential, it is much heavier, requires much more maintenance and is considerably more expensive to operate than the F-16 and J-10 which limits the possibility of making direct comparisons. Comparing the J-10C and the F-16V, however, can offer valuable insight into the state of Chinese and American military aviation – and which will prevail both in a potential conflict and on export markets.

The first F-16s entered service in 1978, meaning the airframe is now approaching 45 years old with no orders for the type from the U.S. Military for several years. The F-16V’s alterations to the original design are relatively conservative. There are no reductions to the radar cross section or applications of stealth coatings and no improvements to the F110 engine’s thrust have been made. Upgrades are restricted to avionics, with new cockpit displays, electronic warfare systems and an AESA radar all integrated. The fighter deploys the same AIM-120C missile as regular F-16 variants, although some reports indicate it could integrate AIM-120D missiles with a longer 180km range in future. The F-16V overall represents a cheaper idea for an ‘enhanced F-16’ to the F-16E – developed for the United Arab Emirates, the F-2 developed for Japan, and the F-21 concept currently being marketed to India – all of which have seen far more ambitious enhancements from high composite airframes and new more powerful engines.

The first J-10 fighters entered service in 2006, with the design benefitting from new technologies developed since the 1970s to provide a leading single engine platform. The fighter was slightly lighter than the F-16 but had a superior flight performance, with a more powerful AL-31 engine exceeding the capabilities of the American F110, a higher speed and operational altitude and superior manoeuvrability. Although its engine was more powerful, the airframe was slightly lighter which further increases its manoeuvrability advantage. There was not a single field in which the F-16 could boast superior capabilities over the J-10. Not only is the J-10 design more advanced, but the J-10C has seen more comprehensive improvements compared to the original design than the F-16V has relative to the original Fighting Falcon. These have included a reduced radar cross section, applications of stealth coatings, a greater use of composite materials a new more powerful AESA radar and integration of PL-15 air to air missiles. The PL-15 has an estimated range of 250-300km, comfortably outperforming any existing American design. The J-10C also benefits from integration of new WS-10B engines, which further increases the discrepancy between its own thrust and that of the F-16 with the new engine boasting considerably greater power than the AL-31. The WS-10B also benefits from three dimensional thrusts vectoring systems – the only non-Russian fighter to do so – providing a massive advantage in manoeuvrability. The F-16 has not integrated any kind of thrust vectoring engines.

Ultimately the superiority of the J-10C is overwhelming. The two jets may be well matched in terms of electronic warfare systems and situational awareness – although export variants of the F-16V will have a disadvantage due to downgraded avionics – the J-10C’s advantages in weaponry and flight performance are overwhelming. As stealth fighters continue to proliferate, the J-10 also has the advantage of integrating an infra red search and tracking system (IRST) allowing it to more effectively lock onto stealth fighters at medium ands short ranges. An IRST also allows the fighter to maintain high situational awareness without a radar signature if needed – something the F-16 cannot do. The discrepancy in the capabilities of the American and Chinese single engine fighters is reflected in the fact that the former much older design has not seen interest from the U.S. Air Force – while the J-10C continues to be mass produced and fielded by elite Chinese units.




https://panpacificagency.com/news/china/05/05/analytics-chinese-j-10c-vs-us-f-16v-which-fighter-would-prevail-in-an-air-war/

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## kungfugymnast

MajesticPug said:


> Your observation proves J-10C was optimally designed for air-to-air operations, especially on a defensive role in its airspace. That was the motivation that gave the rise to J10's. You obviously missed these historical facts or intentionally ignored the facts for your narrative's convenience. I brought B-52 into the discussion to dispute your argument because having the higher payloads is not going to help in a shoot-out battle in the air -- assuming J10C's uses of low-RCS and other sensor techs borrowed from 5th-generation fighter jets help J10C detects its opponent first. In that end, F16V will fare no better than a B-52 if it were detected first and shot at with a BVR PL15.
> 
> FYI, whatever missiles you listed for the F16V DO NOT out gun the PL-15 in terms of range and homing technologies.



You go to military export market involving a country that wanted to buy where few manufacturers presented their fighters, otherwise you won't understand what I'm telling you. FYI a normal country (not rich superpower with GDP ranking not in top 20-30, their budget limited with preference for multi-role fighter that would do everything air to air & air to ground against separatists forces or unfriendly neighbours.

If your unfriendly neighbour is having latest F-15 with AESA, advanced MAWS, RWR, ECM carrying AIM-120C7 and AIM-120D ordered pending delivery. Also they are richer having far more fighters than your country, you would need a fighter that could carry more missiles engaging at least 2-3 enemy fighters each. Effective range of missiles would reduce greatly when you're not at high altitude travelling at speed. The pk of PL-15 is not over 70% neither, even with datalink, your enemy fighters MAWS have IR detectors to warn them on incoming strobes. You won't know how your datalink, radars would fare against US proven effective ECM until you get to meet in combat. If the US ECM is superior, your radar & missiles effective range would be reduced further.


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## ziaulislam

Beast said:


> What kind of transparency for Russian engine? Care to share? I didnt know there is transparency for Russian engine? All I know Russian engine are well known for low lifespan and low reliability. Giving countries like India, China, Malaysia and Algeria plenty of problem and low combat time.
> 
> Fortunately, those times are over. China military has enter an era of full domestic engine times.


There is no public data that can be verified from third party
This will change once china wxports these let say to pakistan or some other country and that country states the engines are good

Russians are exporting al 31 for decades now

China has never exported ws 10/13


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## kungfugymnast

Shotgunner51 said:


> Ain't that true, typical blown-out-of-proportion euro stuff!
> 
> 
> Now that's what we are talking about, real medium workhorses! Here is an opinion piece on 1V1 between the birds, quite a good read.
> 
> *[Analytics] Chinese J-10C vs US F-16V: Which fighter would prevail in an air*
> 
> View attachment 790469
> 
> J-10C '4++ generation' fighter jet pilot. Photo: Military Watch Magazine. Sketched by the Pan Pacific Agency.
> 
> Entering service in 2017 and 2018 respectively, the American F-16V and Chinese J-10C represent two of the most capable lightweight fighter jets in production today and considerable improvements over older baseline fourth generation designs. With each weighing approximately 13,000kg, deploying similarly sized radars, similar single engine configurations and similar weapons payloads, the aircraft are in many ways highly comparable. Both are being marketed for export today. Military Watch has observed both models.
> 
> The large majority of fighter jet classes in production today are configured with twin engines, from heavyweights such as the J-20 and F-15EX to medium designs such as the MiG-35 and Eurofighter, and even lightweight platforms such as the Kowsar and upcoming Taiwanese Brave Eagle. This places the J-10 and F-16 in a class of their own among modern fighter designs.
> 
> While other less prominent single engine designs are in production today, notably the Gripen, JF-17 and Tejas, these are all lighter and less capable than the American and Chinese platforms. The American F-35A is the only other prominent contemporary single engine fighter, although it is still very far from ready for high intensity combat and is unlikely to be until near the end of the decade. While the fifth generation design has considerable potential, it is much heavier, requires much more maintenance and is considerably more expensive to operate than the F-16 and J-10 which limits the possibility of making direct comparisons. Comparing the J-10C and the F-16V, however, can offer valuable insight into the state of Chinese and American military aviation – and which will prevail both in a potential conflict and on export markets.
> 
> The first F-16s entered service in 1978, meaning the airframe is now approaching 45 years old with no orders for the type from the U.S. Military for several years. The F-16V’s alterations to the original design are relatively conservative. There are no reductions to the radar cross section or applications of stealth coatings and no improvements to the F110 engine’s thrust have been made. Upgrades are restricted to avionics, with new cockpit displays, electronic warfare systems and an AESA radar all integrated. The fighter deploys the same AIM-120C missile as regular F-16 variants, although some reports indicate it could integrate AIM-120D missiles with a longer 180km range in future. The F-16V overall represents a cheaper idea for an ‘enhanced F-16’ to the F-16E – developed for the United Arab Emirates, the F-2 developed for Japan, and the F-21 concept currently being marketed to India – all of which have seen far more ambitious enhancements from high composite airframes and new more powerful engines.
> 
> The first J-10 fighters entered service in 2006, with the design benefitting from new technologies developed since the 1970s to provide a leading single engine platform. The fighter was slightly lighter than the F-16 but had a superior flight performance, with a more powerful AL-31 engine exceeding the capabilities of the American F110, a higher speed and operational altitude and superior manoeuvrability. Although its engine was more powerful, the airframe was slightly lighter which further increases its manoeuvrability advantage. There was not a single field in which the F-16 could boast superior capabilities over the J-10. Not only is the J-10 design more advanced, but the J-10C has seen more comprehensive improvements compared to the original design than the F-16V has relative to the original Fighting Falcon. These have included a reduced radar cross section, applications of stealth coatings, a greater use of composite materials a new more powerful AESA radar and integration of PL-15 air to air missiles. The PL-15 has an estimated range of 250-300km, comfortably outperforming any existing American design. The J-10C also benefits from integration of new WS-10B engines, which further increases the discrepancy between its own thrust and that of the F-16 with the new engine boasting considerably greater power than the AL-31. The WS-10B also benefits from three dimensional thrusts vectoring systems – the only non-Russian fighter to do so – providing a massive advantage in manoeuvrability. The F-16 has not integrated any kind of thrust vectoring engines.
> 
> Ultimately the superiority of the J-10C is overwhelming. The two jets may be well matched in terms of electronic warfare systems and situational awareness – although export variants of the F-16V will have a disadvantage due to downgraded avionics – the J-10C’s advantages in weaponry and flight performance are overwhelming. As stealth fighters continue to proliferate, the J-10 also has the advantage of integrating an infra red search and tracking system (IRST) allowing it to more effectively lock onto stealth fighters at medium ands short ranges. An IRST also allows the fighter to maintain high situational awareness without a radar signature if needed – something the F-16 cannot do. The discrepancy in the capabilities of the American and Chinese single engine fighters is reflected in the fact that the former much older design has not seen interest from the U.S. Air Force – while the J-10C continues to be mass produced and fielded by elite Chinese units.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://panpacificagency.com/news/china/05/05/analytics-chinese-j-10c-vs-us-f-16v-which-fighter-would-prevail-in-an-air-war/



Are you from HK because your avatar unbeatable movie starring Cheong Kar Fai & sanda guy Phillip? 

F-16V is smaller and lighter (empty 19,000lb) with smaller internal fuel tank 6,900lb, if carried 6 air to air missiles, it could still pull more than 8.1G, brought total weight the less that 28,000lb. The latest General Electric F110-GE-132 returns maximum 32,000lb thrust improving its climb and acceleration capability with good thrust to weight ratio. On military thrust it's about 19,000-20,000lb which is impressive enough. Even for export variant, the downgraded avionics are still proven superb, it has helmet cue & IRST too. The short combat radius 320nm could be solved with CFTs with cruising speed better than Rafale. 

The J-10C is most impressive on the price tag followed by engine WS-10B with optional TVC add-on, larger internal fuel with greater combat radius, better maneuverability, probably better RCS, latest China avionics that are proven only when they get to see combat. 

In comparison at presentation, the F-16V shown exceptional performance in air to air, air to ground or both practical payload configuration making it truly a multi-role fighter able to carry 2x AIM-9X, 2x AIM-120C7/D, 6x AGM-65G, 6x CBU-87/97/Mk82, 2x CFTs, 1x ECM pod or 150gal drop tank. The J-10C would carry only short range PL-10E in order to carry the latest upcoming multi-purpose 6x blue arrow missiles, 2x LGB, 4x 550lb bombs or LGB, 1x small drop tank. Without blue arrow missiles, the J-10C would be carrying bombs mostly. The F-16V won in air to ground search and destroy, SEAD, CAS operations, also excel in outnumbered air engagements. 

The main winning factor of J-10C over F-16V is the price, less limitations & requirements from seller, value for money, affordable spare parts. It seriously needs to have interchangeable innermost underwing pylons that users could choose to fit pylon for carrying 2x larger bombs, drop tanks or air to air missiles like F-15E fuselage pylons that could be configured to carry 4x AiM-120, 4x 1,000-2,000lb bombs or 6-12x 500lb bombs. Best if J-10C fuselage pylons can be interchanged too, that'll make J-10C able to carry 6-8 air to air missiles without the flimsy dual racks that reduce maneuverability


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## MajesticPug

Shotgunner51 said:


> Ain't that true, typical blown-out-of-proportion euro stuff!
> 
> 
> Now that's what we are talking about, real medium workhorses! Here is an opinion piece on 1V1 between the birds, quite a good read.
> 
> *[Analytics] Chinese J-10C vs US F-16V: Which fighter would prevail in an air*
> 
> View attachment 790469
> 
> J-10C '4++ generation' fighter jet pilot. Photo: Military Watch Magazine. Sketched by the Pan Pacific Agency.
> 
> Entering service in 2017 and 2018 respectively, the American F-16V and Chinese J-10C represent two of the most capable lightweight fighter jets in production today and considerable improvements over older baseline fourth generation designs. With each weighing approximately 13,000kg, deploying similarly sized radars, similar single engine configurations and similar weapons payloads, the aircraft are in many ways highly comparable. Both are being marketed for export today. Military Watch has observed both models.
> 
> The large majority of fighter jet classes in production today are configured with twin engines, from heavyweights such as the J-20 and F-15EX to medium designs such as the MiG-35 and Eurofighter, and even lightweight platforms such as the Kowsar and upcoming Taiwanese Brave Eagle. This places the J-10 and F-16 in a class of their own among modern fighter designs.
> 
> While other less prominent single engine designs are in production today, notably the Gripen, JF-17 and Tejas, these are all lighter and less capable than the American and Chinese platforms. The American F-35A is the only other prominent contemporary single engine fighter, although it is still very far from ready for high intensity combat and is unlikely to be until near the end of the decade. While the fifth generation design has considerable potential, it is much heavier, requires much more maintenance and is considerably more expensive to operate than the F-16 and J-10 which limits the possibility of making direct comparisons. Comparing the J-10C and the F-16V, however, can offer valuable insight into the state of Chinese and American military aviation – and which will prevail both in a potential conflict and on export markets.
> 
> The first F-16s entered service in 1978, meaning the airframe is now approaching 45 years old with no orders for the type from the U.S. Military for several years. The F-16V’s alterations to the original design are relatively conservative. There are no reductions to the radar cross section or applications of stealth coatings and no improvements to the F110 engine’s thrust have been made. Upgrades are restricted to avionics, with new cockpit displays, electronic warfare systems and an AESA radar all integrated. The fighter deploys the same AIM-120C missile as regular F-16 variants, although some reports indicate it could integrate AIM-120D missiles with a longer 180km range in future. The F-16V overall represents a cheaper idea for an ‘enhanced F-16’ to the F-16E – developed for the United Arab Emirates, the F-2 developed for Japan, and the F-21 concept currently being marketed to India – all of which have seen far more ambitious enhancements from high composite airframes and new more powerful engines.
> 
> The first J-10 fighters entered service in 2006, with the design benefitting from new technologies developed since the 1970s to provide a leading single engine platform. The fighter was slightly lighter than the F-16 but had a superior flight performance, with a more powerful AL-31 engine exceeding the capabilities of the American F110, a higher speed and operational altitude and superior manoeuvrability. Although its engine was more powerful, the airframe was slightly lighter which further increases its manoeuvrability advantage. There was not a single field in which the F-16 could boast superior capabilities over the J-10. Not only is the J-10 design more advanced, but the J-10C has seen more comprehensive improvements compared to the original design than the F-16V has relative to the original Fighting Falcon. These have included a reduced radar cross section, applications of stealth coatings, a greater use of composite materials a new more powerful AESA radar and integration of PL-15 air to air missiles. The PL-15 has an estimated range of 250-300km, comfortably outperforming any existing American design. The J-10C also benefits from integration of new WS-10B engines, which further increases the discrepancy between its own thrust and that of the F-16 with the new engine boasting considerably greater power than the AL-31. The WS-10B also benefits from three dimensional thrusts vectoring systems – the only non-Russian fighter to do so – providing a massive advantage in manoeuvrability. The F-16 has not integrated any kind of thrust vectoring engines.
> 
> Ultimately the superiority of the J-10C is overwhelming. The two jets may be well matched in terms of electronic warfare systems and situational awareness – although export variants of the F-16V will have a disadvantage due to downgraded avionics – the J-10C’s advantages in weaponry and flight performance are overwhelming. As stealth fighters continue to proliferate, the J-10 also has the advantage of integrating an infra red search and tracking system (IRST) allowing it to more effectively lock onto stealth fighters at medium ands short ranges. An IRST also allows the fighter to maintain high situational awareness without a radar signature if needed – something the F-16 cannot do. The discrepancy in the capabilities of the American and Chinese single engine fighters is reflected in the fact that the former much older design has not seen interest from the U.S. Air Force – while the J-10C continues to be mass produced and fielded by elite Chinese units.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://panpacificagency.com/news/china/05/05/analytics-chinese-j-10c-vs-us-f-16v-which-fighter-would-prevail-in-an-air-war/



Great comparison. Yet kungfugymnast touts F16V carries missiles like a B-52 can. LOL...


kungfugymnast said:


> You go to military export market involving a country that wanted to buy where few manufacturers presented their fighters, otherwise you won't understand what I'm telling you. FYI a normal country (not rich superpower with GDP ranking not in top 20-30, their budget limited with preference for multi-role fighter that would do everything air to air & air to ground against separatists forces or unfriendly neighbours.
> 
> If your unfriendly neighbour is having latest F-15 with AESA, advanced MAWS, RWR, ECM carrying AIM-120C7 and AIM-120D ordered pending delivery. Also they are richer having far more fighters than your country, you would need a fighter that could carry more missiles engaging at least 2-3 enemy fighters each. Effective range of missiles would reduce greatly when you're not at high altitude travelling at speed. The pk of PL-15 is not over 70% neither, even with datalink, your enemy fighters MAWS have IR detectors to warn them on incoming strobes. You won't know how your datalink, radars would fare against US proven effective ECM until you get to meet in combat. If the US ECM is superior, your radar & missiles effective range would be reduced further.



I'm waiting the news of your B-52 shooting down a J10C or a C-17 gunning down a J20B.

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## Shotgunner51

MajesticPug said:


> Great comparison. Yet kungfugymnast touts F16V carries missiles like a B-52 can. LOL...


Yeah I was impressed by that apparently quite in-depth article, almost turning me into a J-10C fans instantly! Seems like Russian analysts are quite objective on top of being very pro, while Chinese/western analysts are more biased, in many case not even pro at all, well that's just my experience.


kungfugymnast said:


> Are you from HK because your avatar unbeatable movie starring Cheong Kar Fai & sanda guy Phillip?


Nah I'm from Shanghai, though have stationed in HK for a short period of time. Yep that's my favorite movie cos I play some boxing, Cheong Kar Fai is damn cool!

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## kungfugymnast

MajesticPug said:


> Great comparison. Yet kungfugymnast touts F16V carries missiles like a B-52 can. LOL...
> 
> 
> I'm waiting the news of your B-52 shooting down a J10C or a C-17 gunning down a J20B.



You really don't know much about F-16 armament payload, do you? Probably your generation don't get to buy detailed military books like the old days anymore.

Just look at these photos, since F-16C early variants in 1980's, they have been carrying AGM-65, Mk-82, CBU-87/97 on double or triple racks on middle and inner most underwing pylons. Each rack able to carry up to 700lb compact missile or bomb. You can see AIM-120 on wing tips while AIM-9M/X on outermost underwing pylons. B-52G/H would be carrying far more bombs and missiles than this. What I posted taken from military feedback on the medium fighter purchase plan presentation involving F-16 block 60/70, J-10C, Mig-35, Gripen. The F-16 wows everyone with air to ground and air to air payload apart from showing their impressive combat achievements.

The J-10C would have to come up with interchangeable inner most underwing pylons at least to compete. When long range combat radius is not priority especially when flying CAS, search and destroy, the ability to destroy as many tanks, SAMs can only be done with compact air to ground missiles. Blue arrow is China's answer to AGM-65.


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## kungfugymnast

Shotgunner51 said:


> Yeah I was impressed by that apparently quite in-depth article, almost turning me into a J-10C fans instantly! Seems like Russian analysts are quite objective on top of being very pro, while Chinese/western analysts are more biased, in many case not even pro at all, well that's just my experience.
> 
> Nah I'm from Shanghai, though have stationed in HK for a short period of time. Yep that's my favorite movie cos I play some boxing, Cheong Kar Fai is damn cool!



Good you're in Shanghai, you sure get to watch KLF and WLF fight events there since you're into martial arts. Frankly speaking, that unbeatable movie is really awful with bad fight choreograph. Cheong Kar Fai is just average to me while Philip is totally out whether in acting or fighting. Thumbs sticking out when holding fist is bad influence, I would aim for the thumbs if my opponents do that in real street fight or when wearing open hand gloves. 

The J-10C is the only best fighter other countries could buy from China if they don't pass US strict requirement. Only downside is it doesn't have enough missile pylons unless manufacturer comes up with optional pylons that could carry air to air and air to ground missiles.


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## MajesticPug

kungfugymnast said:


> You really don't know much about F-16 armament payload, do you? Probably your generation don't get to buy detailed military books like the old days anymore.
> 
> Just look at these photos, since F-16C early variants in 1980's, they have been carrying AGM-65, Mk-82, CBU-87/97 on double or triple racks on middle and inner most underwing pylons. Each rack able to carry up to 700lb compact missile or bomb. You can see AIM-120 on wing tips while AIM-9M/X on outermost underwing pylons. B-52G/H would be carrying far more bombs and missiles than this. What I posted taken from military feedback on the medium fighter purchase plan presentation involving F-16 block 60/70, J-10C, Mig-35, Gripen. The F-16 wows everyone with air to ground and air to air payload apart from showing their impressive combat achievements.
> 
> The J-10C would have to come up with interchangeable inner most underwing pylons at least to compete. When long range combat radius is not priority especially when flying CAS, search and destroy, the ability to destroy as many tanks, SAMs can only be done with compact air to ground missiles. Blue arrow is China's answer to AGM-65.



Why do you stick to your payload argument when what I said was that j10C could gun down F16V when F16V pilot has no idea what hits his jet? You obviously can't read and can't argue logically. You jumped in with a bunch of payload craps and concluded j10C is designed for air-to-ground mission and yet it's still bad at its design goals. You really have no clue. You might as well argue B-52 can shoot down a j10C. What a troll.


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## kungfugymnast

MajesticPug said:


> Why do you stick to your payload argument when what I said was that j10C could gun down F16V when F16V pilot has no idea what hits his jet? You obviously can't read and can't argue logically. You jumped in with a bunch of payload craps and concluded j10C is designed for air-to-ground mission and yet it's still bad at its design goals. You really have no clue. You might as well argue B-52 can shoot down a j10C. What a troll.



In BVR, both sides chance of winning at 50:50. The F-16V RCS isn't that high neither yet it is fitted with proven advanced AESA radar coupled with advanced proven avionics especially early warning system. China avionics could be either close, similar or better, won't know until it sees combat actions. The only thing confirmed is the J-10C has better maneuverability especially with TVC giving it better chance of winning at dogfight. 

I picked debate from a country's air force personnel after being presented the few fighters capabilities by manufacturers to post here. Are you trying to say that you're better than the air force personnel that evaluated the fighters that they are deciding to buy? These air force personnel have flown both US and Russian medium fighters. They fly the flankers with TVC too.


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## MajesticPug

kungfugymnast said:


> In BVR, both sides chance of winning at 50:50. The F-16V RCS isn't that high neither yet it is fitted with proven advanced AESA radar coupled with advanced proven avionics especially early warning system. China avionics could be either close, similar or better, won't know until it sees combat actions. The only thing confirmed is the J-10C has better maneuverability especially with TVC giving it better chance of winning at dogfight.
> 
> I picked debate from a country's air force personnel after being presented the few fighters capabilities by manufacturers to post here. Are you trying to say that you're better than the air force personnel that evaluated the fighters that they are deciding to buy? These air force personnel have flown both US and Russian medium fighters. They fly the flankers with TVC too.



Now you're talking sense comparing air-to-air capabilities, not payloads of air-to-ground nonsense. While nobody knows the capability of J10C's AESA performances compared to F16V's, PL-15 has a greater range than any current and maybe developing American missiles. One can always assumes China's AESA radar could take advantage of PL-15's range -- which would unwittingly or indirectly suggestJ10C's AESA performance is better than F16V's. PLUS -- J10C is equipped with TVC and a range of 5th-generation jet's sensor and stealth techs. In exercises, J10C's could shoot down similarly equipped J16's and that tells how capable J10C is in air-to-air combats. It could easily assume the role of an assassin in the air.

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## kungfugymnast

MajesticPug said:


> Now you're talking sense comparing air-to-air capabilities, not payloads of air-to-ground nonsense. While nobody knows the capability of J10C's AESA performances compared to F16V's, PL-15 has a greater range than any current and maybe developing American missiles. One can always assumes China's AESA radar could take advantage of PL-15's range -- which would unwittingly or indirectly suggestJ10C's AESA performance is better than F16V's. PLUS -- J10C is equipped with TVC and a range of 5th-generation jet's sensor and stealth techs. In exercises, J10C's could shoot down similarly equipped J16's and that tells how capable J10C is in air-to-air combats. It could easily assume the role of an assassin in the air.



The maximum effective range is only achievable if the launcher aircraft is flying at high altitude and at speed without affected by ECM. In rear engagement against fleeing aircraft at high speed, the effective range would greatly reduced to less than 15Nm. This is why in modern BVR engagement, most of the launcher aircraft don't launch missiles at maximum effective range especially against agile fighters with range below 30miles during Iraq, Serbia war.

If J-10C is carrying just 2x PL-10E & 2x PL-15 up against 2x F-16V, the J-10C might launch 1 PL-15 at each F-16V at range of 80 miles or less (it won't be the maximum effective range at over 100miles anyway unless target is large aircraft with huge RCS & poor maneuverability). If F-16V carried AIM-120D, they too would launch at similar range. You don't expect 100% successful hit especially against fighters with proven avionics and well trained pilots as they would take evasive maneuver upon detecting spike and warning on their advanced RWR planning their spoofing moves. If the PL-15 managed to splash 1x F-16V, the other would have at least 3 or more AIM-120 remaining to launch at the lone J-10C that is desperate to get into visual range engagement. Question is, can the J-10C be lucky enough to spoof the remaining 3x AIM-120 from 2nd F-16V if it managed to spoof the first?


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

J-10C looks better and DSI reduces RCS a lot compared to F-16V which don't have that.


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## Riz



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## PurpleButcher

Just put some CFTs on this beauty ! I hope J10C(P) version has them ... Nothing wrong in hoping


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## johncliu88

J-10 is a very capable platform. It also can be converted to different task fighters easily. Maybe the next upgrade will be using the WS-15 engine when it is ready. Let's see then.

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## MajesticPug

kungfugymnast said:


> The maximum effective range is only achievable if the launcher aircraft is flying at high altitude and at speed without affected by ECM. In rear engagement against fleeing aircraft at high speed, the effective range would greatly reduced to less than 15Nm. This is why in modern BVR engagement, most of the launcher aircraft don't launch missiles at maximum effective range especially against agile fighters with range below 30miles during Iraq, Serbia war.
> 
> If J-10C is carrying just 2x PL-10E & 2x PL-15 up against 2x F-16V, the J-10C might launch 1 PL-15 at each F-16V at range of 80 miles or less (it won't be the maximum effective range at over 100miles anyway unless target is large aircraft with huge RCS & poor maneuverability). If F-16V carried AIM-120D, they too would launch at similar range. You don't expect 100% successful hit especially against fighters with proven avionics and well trained pilots as they would take evasive maneuver upon detecting spike and warning on their advanced RWR planning their spoofing moves. If the PL-15 managed to splash 1x F-16V, the other would have at least 3 or more AIM-120 remaining to launch at the lone J-10C that is desperate to get into visual range engagement. Question is, can the J-10C be lucky enough to spoof the remaining 3x AIM-120 from 2nd F-16V if it managed to spoof the first?



Your setting up the best scenario for the F16Vs (2 vs. 1) is just a what-if playbook when you play on your computer. In what-if situations, a Mig-19 could gun down a F-15E or a blind cat could catch a mouse. Thanks for the laugh.


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## kungfugymnast

MajesticPug said:


> Your setting up the best scenario for the F16Vs (2 vs. 1) is just a what-if playbook when you play on your computer. In what-if situations, a Mig-19 could gun down a F-15E or a blind cat could catch a mouse. Thanks for the laugh.



Countries that buy weapons from Russia or China mostly are those that don't buy from US & NATO. Also numbers of them have rivals that are placed under threat list of possible attackers usually richer buying arms from US & NATO having larger air forces. Just look at Syria vs Turkey air force inventory is 1 of best example. Present minimum missiles recommended for combat air patrol, escort, intercept has been 8 air to air missiles since 1980's. Russians used to be 6x but responded with 8x, 10x , 12x as seen on Mig-35, Su-27/33/30/35.

J-10CE export market potential buyers are likely to face outnumbered air engagement should they gotten into war with at least 1 vs 2, unlucky could be more with enemy air force twice the size at least.


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## luciferdd

New batch J-10C with WS10 was in service to take place old J-7E.

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## Daniel808

luciferdd said:


> New batch J-10C with WS10 was in service to take place old J-7E.
> View attachment 794868
> View attachment 794869
> View attachment 794870
> View attachment 794871
> View attachment 794872





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1461945264168701955

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## siegecrossbow

Video footage of WS-10 J-10C currently in service with PLAAF.

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## luciferdd

BS from pupu：Maybe some old J10-A will be upgraded with new avionics( LKF601E radar) and offered to North Korea for free as military assistance.

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## jaybird

luciferdd said:


> BS from pupu：Maybe some old J10-A will be upgraded with new avionics( LKF601E radar) and offered to North Korea for free as military assistance.
> View attachment 796130



He say "Offered to friendly country for free as military assistance."It could be North Korea but Pakistan is also a possibility as the destination of the upgraded J-10A. We haven't seen China give any new military jets to North Korea for long long time, unless there is change of policy.

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## Avicenna

jaybird said:


> He say "Offered to friendly country for free as military assistance."It could be North Korea but Pakistan is also a possibility as the destination of the upgraded J-10A. We haven't seen China give any new military jets to North Korea for long long time, unless there is change of policy.



Would make sense for China to supply NK to annoy the US.

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## siegecrossbow

jaybird said:


> He say "Offered to friendly country for free as military assistance."It could be North Korea but Pakistan is also a possibility as the destination of the upgraded J-10A. We haven't seen China give any new military jets to North Korea for long long time, unless there is change of policy.



Pakistan is getting J-10C. Pupu’s rumor matches what Yankeesama has leaked.

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## vi-va

Avicenna said:


> Would make sense for China to supply NK to annoy the US.


I don't think so. China's US policy is not US's China policy. China has never done things childishly like US.

China's policy on Korea Peninsula is very clear, no nukes for both side of 38°.


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## world of power

luciferdd said:


> BS from pupu：Maybe some old J10-A will be upgraded with new avionics( LKF601E radar) and offered to North Korea for free as military assistance.





jaybird said:


> We haven't seen China give any new military jets to North Korea for long long time, unless there is change of policy.





Avicenna said:


> Would make sense for China to supply NK to annoy the US.


a bit change of policy;; china recently resumed economically trading with north korea;; however, note that china NEVER gave any big arms to north korea like jet, ship, or missile since 1990s although it trades some minor arms


jaybird said:


> He say "Offered to friendly country for free as military assistance."It could be North Korea but Pakistan is also a possibility as the destination of the upgraded J-10A.





siegecrossbow said:


> Pakistan is getting J-10C. Pupu’s rumor matches what Yankeesama has leaked.


pakistan is getting JF17;; again, such baseless J10 rumor has looped since 2008 but we still have NOT seen any progress and I conclude such deal is NOT possible;; many chinese and pakistani fanboys completely forget that pakistan is currently undergoing very serious economic crisis, desperately looking for big monetary helps possibly from any others;; plus it is even struggling with its ongoing arms acquisition programs like JF17 due to lack of money;; many pakistani fanboys sound like chinese arms is almost free (sometimes they even sound like chinese arms is pakistani arms itself lol);; they sound so because they NEVER know the secret trade in barter payment;; but please note that chinese arms has NEVER been free for pakistan;; buying J10 medium fighters costs at least over a billions of dollars;; pakistan do NOT have any way to pay for J10;; thus the deal is IMPOSSIBLE;; guys please leave J10

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## siegecrossbow

world of power said:


> a bit change of policy;; china recently resumed economically trading with north korea;; however, note that china NEVER gave any big arms to north korea like jet, ship, or missile since 1990s although it trades some minor arms
> 
> 
> pakistan is getting JF17;; again, such baseless J10 rumor has looped since 2008 but we still have NOT seen any progress and I conclude such deal is NOT possible;; many chinese and pakistani fanboys completely forget that pakistan is currently undergoing very serious economic crisis, desperately looking for big monetary helps possibly from any others;; plus it is even struggling with its ongoing arms acquisition programs like JF17 due to lack of money;; many pakistani fanboys sound like chinese arms is almost free (sometimes they even sound like chinese arms is pakistani arms itself lol);; they sound so because they NEVER know the secret trade in barter payment;; but please note that chinese arms has NEVER been free for pakistan;; buying J10 medium fighters costs at least over a billions of dollars;; pakistan do NOT have any way to pay for J10;; thus the deal is IMPOSSIBLE;; guys please leave J10



By that logic Pakistan wouldn't be able to pay for the Type 054A either. Military deals with Pakistan has not been about making money, especially in light of recent events.

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## TOTUU

world of power said:


> a bit change of policy;; china recently resumed economically trading with north korea;; however, note that china NEVER gave any big arms to north korea like jet, ship, or missile since 1990s although it trades some minor arms
> 
> 
> pakistan is getting JF17;; again, such baseless J10 rumor has looped since 2008 but we still have NOT seen any progress and I conclude such deal is NOT possible;; many chinese and pakistani fanboys completely forget that pakistan is currently undergoing very serious economic crisis, desperately looking for big monetary helps possibly from any others;; plus it is even struggling with its ongoing arms acquisition programs like JF17 due to lack of money;; many pakistani fanboys sound like chinese arms is almost free (sometimes they even sound like chinese arms is pakistani arms itself lol);; they sound so because they NEVER know the secret trade in barter payment;; but please note that chinese arms has NEVER been free for pakistan;; buying J10 medium fighters costs at least over a billions of dollars;; pakistan do NOT have any way to pay for J10;; thus the deal is IMPOSSIBLE;; guys please leave J10


 can't just think about it in terms of money. Pakistan's j10c will come out soon .


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## siegecrossbow

TOTUU said:


> can't just think about it in terms of money. Pakistan's j10c will come out soon .



We have friggin AVIC leaking the news several months ago. I don’t understand why people are so skeptical.

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## world of power

siegecrossbow said:


> By that logic Pakistan wouldn't be able to pay for the Type 054A either. Military deals with Pakistan has not been about making money, especially in light of recent events.


good point;; as far as I study for decades, here's the base;; china and pakistan has traditionally traded in the barter payment because pakistan has NO money and china still wants to sell;; and they NEVER publicize how such barter payment works, so basically people could NOT know the deal in detail;; however, the timeline is the strongest evidence for the barter payment between china and pakistan;; in case of arms trades, just over one hundreds of JF17 are still being deployed in pakistan since 2007;; first type 054A class frigate is now deployed in pakistan after it first ordered in 2016 (Pakistan shops for warships to replace British frigates, modernize Navy (armytimes.com));; plus eight of yuan class submarines are scheduled to be deployed in 2028 since it first ordered in 2015 (Defence cooperation: Pakistan to buy eight submarines from China (tribune.com.pk));; such small jets and ships typically took only few years for china but they would take longer than decades for its delivery to pakistan;; china surely adjusts its arms deliveries to pakistan while both progress in big economic projects like china-pakistan-economic-corridor (CPEC), so the bigger economic projects, the bigger arms sales between china and pakistan;; massive arms industry surely takes a lot of costs and it is making money for china


TOTUU said:


> can't just think about it in terms of money. Pakistan's j10c will come out soon .


soon? so please tell me when it would


siegecrossbow said:


> We have friggin AVIC leaking the news several months ago. I don’t understand why people are so skeptical.


again, because such pop-ups always go around since 2008;; okay, be await and let see again;; I'm sure that china has constantly rejected pakistani price offers for J10 since 2008


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## IblinI

world of power said:


> good point;; as far as I study for decades, here's the base;; china and pakistan has traditionally traded in the barter payment because pakistan has NO money and china still wants to sell;; and they NEVER publicize how such barter payment works, so basically people could NOT know the deal in detail;; however, the timeline is the strongest evidence for the barter payment between china and pakistan;; in case of arms trades, just over one hundreds of JF17 are still being deployed in pakistan since 2007;; first type 054A class frigate is now deployed in pakistan after it first ordered in 2016 (Pakistan shops for warships to replace British frigates, modernize Navy (armytimes.com));; plus eight of yuan class submarines are scheduled to be deployed in 2028 since it first ordered in 2015 (Defence cooperation: Pakistan to buy eight submarines from China (tribune.com.pk));; such small jets and ships typically took only few years for china but they would take longer than decades for its delivery to pakistan;; china surely adjusts its arms deliveries to pakistan while both progress in big economic projects like china-pakistan-economic-corridor (CPEC), so the bigger economic projects, the bigger arms sales between china and pakistan;; massive arms industry surely takes a lot of costs and it is making money for china
> 
> soon? so please tell me when it would
> 
> again, because such pop-ups always go around since 2008;; okay, be await and let see again;; I'm sure that china has constantly rejected pakistani price offers for J10 since 2008


off topic, but are you from Korea?


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## Sine Nomine

world of power said:


> I'm sure that china has constantly rejected pakistani price offers for J10 since 2008


Most of Pakistani purchases from PRC are funded by credit line given by PRC and payments in installments,Pakistan was trying to get F-16 used one's or new but after repeated failures,seems like it has given up and has sought to obtain J-10,there is strategic alliance between PRC and IRP not a usual buyer/seller relationship.


world of power said:


> in case of arms trades, just over one hundreds of JF17 are still being deployed in pakistan since 2007;;


There are more than 130 active in Pakistan and 150+ total,Pakistan is producing them inhouse.

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## world of power

IblinI said:


> off topic, but are you from Korea?


surely on topic, regarding pakistan with J10;; yes I'm korean


Sine Nomine said:


> Most of Pakistani purchases from PRC are funded by credit line given by PRC and payments in installments,Pakistan was trying to get F-16 used one's or new but after repeated failures,seems like it has given up and has sought to obtain J-10,there is strategic alliance between PRC and IRP not a usual buyer/seller relationship.
> 
> There are more than 130 active in Pakistan and 150+ total,Pakistan is producing them inhouse.


pakistan should know china mostly stopped giving free aid to poor friends after the first chinese leader Mao Zedong (毛泽东);; since then the next leader Deng Xiaoping (邓小平) asks something in return when it trades, so china thereafter;; big arms making costs a lot and china pays them for its own army;; yes it is strategic alliance between china and pakistan;; while US, russia, and europe are all friendly with india, pakistan really needs friend;; neighboring china is the world's biggest trader and it wants shorter trade route (one-road-one-belt);; china put tens of billions of dollars on pakistani infrastructure (CPEC) in last few years;; CPEC is the largest foreign direct investment (FDI) in chinese history

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## Deino

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1463869565247668229
... and the most interesting point, still running on AL-31FN. But we haven't heard for any new Sino-Russian AL-31F and FN contract since years, but still they build J-10AS and J-15s at SAC which are using Russian engines.

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## KampfAlwin

Deino said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1463869565247668229
> ... and the most interesting point, still running on AL-31FN. But we haven't heard for any new Sino-Russian AL-31F and FN contract since years, but still they build J-10AS and J-15s at SAC which are using Russian engines.


I wonder, if a possible next contract for AL-31s is signed, is it likely it would be for replacing the older model's engines? 
Also @Deino, what do you think of the J-10D rumours as per Huitong's blog?


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## Deino

KampfAlwin said:


> I wonder, if a possible next contract for AL-31s is signed, is it likely it would be for replacing the older model's engines?
> Also @Deino, what do you think of the J-10D rumours as per Huitong's blog?




In fact I find these - especially the recent - rumours very sceptical. IMO it makes no sense to develop yet another semi-stealthy J-10 variant as claimed in the first round of rumours and illustrated by some CGs. You cannot make the J-10 a stealth fighter simply by making the radome canted and adding CFTs.

These latest rumours are IMO different since they mention something more multiole as if it would have a different wing, more hard-points or whatever ... overall I believe it only when I see it.

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## vi-va

Deino said:


> In fact I find these - especially the recent - rumours very sceptical. IMO it makes no sense to develop yet another semi-stealthy J-10 variant as claimed in the first round of rumours and illustrated by some CGs. You cannot make the J-10 a stealth fighter simply by making the radome canted and adding CFTs.
> 
> These latest rumours are IMO different since they mention something more multiole as if it would have a different wing, more hard-points or whatever ... overall I believe it only when I see it.


611 hands are full. I think the competition is so fierce that, they would better work on 6th gen fighter instead of J-10D.
601 already has another 5th gen fighter in test, no point to waste more resource.

Modify Navy J-35 to land is easy.

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## kungfugymnast

vi-va said:


> 611 hands are full. I think the competition is so fierce that, they would better work on 6th gen fighter instead of J-10D.
> 601 already has another 5th gen fighter in test, no point to waste more resource.
> 
> Modify Navy J-35 to land is easy.



If China has plan for single engine stealth fighter, it will be totally new fighter built from scratch bearing different number designation. 

If there's J-10D, it won't be stealth version but more of enlarged version to carry more missiles/bombs with provision for CFT. More of Gripen NG or F-16XL style enlarged variant.


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## Title1234

kungfugymnast said:


> If China has plan for single engine stealth fighter, it will be totally new fighter built from scratch bearing different number designation.
> 
> If there's J-10D, it won't be stealth version but more of enlarged version to carry more missiles/bombs with provision for CFT. More of Gripen NG or F-16XL style enlarged variant.


Is it possible to modify J20 unman Royal Wingman to man single engine stealth multirole fighter?


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## zhxy

vi-va said:


> 611 hands are full. I think the competition is so fierce that, they would better work on 6th gen fighter instead of J-10D.
> 601 already has another 5th gen fighter in test, no point to* waste more resource.*
> 
> Modify Navy J-35 to land is easy.



The truth is not. They simply don't care

Assume what happens if China decides to develop J-10D. The amount is a few billion dollars, it is a very small number compared to China's annual GDP and military budget. It will bring a lot of jobs for Chinese designers, engineers, workers. During the J-10D development process, China will gain new knowledge and experience.

If the investment for the J-10D is wasting resources, the same is true for Su-35, S-400 and Mil-171. At least most of the money in the J-10D program will be paid to indigenous workers, engineers and suppliers. It differs from buying S-400, SU-35, MI-171 when money is given to foreign countries.


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## kungfugymnast

Title1234 said:


> Is it possible to modify J20 unman Royal Wingman to man single engine stealth multirole fighter?



J-20 is the current twin engine stealth fighter? Unmanmed loyal wingman is UCAV can't modify. Better they build a new aircraft


zhxy said:


> The truth is not. They simply don't care
> 
> Assume what happens if China decides to develop J-10D. The amount is a few billion dollars, it is a very small number compared to China's annual GDP and military budget. It will bring a lot of jobs for Chinese designers, engineers, workers. During the J-10D development process, China will gain new knowledge and experience.
> 
> If the investment for the J-10D is wasting resources, the same is true for Su-35, S-400 and Mil-171. At least most of the money in the J-10D program will be paid to indigenous workers, engineers and suppliers. It differs from buying S-400, SU-35, MI-171 when money is given to foreign countries.



Converting j-10D into stealth aircraft requires total redesign, not feasible. Better they start another new fighter programme.


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## vi-va

zhxy said:


> The truth is not. They simply don't care
> 
> Assume what happens if China decides to develop J-10D. The amount is a few billion dollars, it is a very small number compared to China's annual GDP and military budget. It will bring a lot of jobs for Chinese designers, engineers, workers. During the J-10D development process, China will gain new knowledge and experience.
> 
> If the investment for the J-10D is wasting resources, the same is true for Su-35, S-400 and Mil-171. At least most of the money in the J-10D program will be paid to indigenous workers, engineers and suppliers. It differs from buying S-400, SU-35, MI-171 when money is given to foreign countries.



Su-35, only squadron. No more orders. Several billions to get hand on latest version of Flanker is good.
Currently, China is operating PLA S-300PMU2 Favorit. S-400 is not an upgrade of S-300. S-400 is a system which can manage S-300 system in a theater. It's a multiplier.





China need Mil-171, while Russia military complex has the capacity. It's win-win. US doesn't make everything they require, neither.

China doesn't need a stealthy J-10. Spend the money elsewhere, is more productive.

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## Bossman

world of power said:


> good point;; as far as I study for decades, here's the base;; china and pakistan has traditionally traded in the barter payment because pakistan has NO money and china still wants to sell;; and they NEVER publicize how such barter payment works, so basically people could NOT know the deal in detail;; however, the timeline is the strongest evidence for the barter payment between china and pakistan;; in case of arms trades, just over one hundreds of JF17 are still being deployed in pakistan since 2007;; first type 054A class frigate is now deployed in pakistan after it first ordered in 2016 (Pakistan shops for warships to replace British frigates, modernize Navy (armytimes.com));; plus eight of yuan class submarines are scheduled to be deployed in 2028 since it first ordered in 2015 (Defence cooperation: Pakistan to buy eight submarines from China (tribune.com.pk));; such small jets and ships typically took only few years for china but they would take longer than decades for its delivery to pakistan;; china surely adjusts its arms deliveries to pakistan while both progress in big economic projects like china-pakistan-economic-corridor (CPEC), so the bigger economic projects, the bigger arms sales between china and pakistan;; massive arms industry surely takes a lot of costs and it is making money for china
> 
> soon? so please tell me when it would
> 
> again, because such pop-ups always go around since 2008;; okay, be await and let see again;; I'm sure that china has constantly rejected pakistani price offers for J10 since 2008


You are very ill informed and need to learn how to use a semi colon.


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## siegecrossbow

J-10C with WS-10 engine spotted in Western Theater Command.

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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> View attachment 801718
> 
> 
> J-10C with WS-10 engine spotted in Western Theater Command.
> 
> View attachment 801719




Are you sure it is a WS-10? I must admit on that small screen of my mobile, I'm not sure ...

*Correction: it is!  *

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## Polestar 2

J-10 export to PAF and North Korea AF ?

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## Shotgunner51

Polestar 2 said:


> J-10 export to PAF and North Korea AF ?


PLAAF's used *J-10A *getting transferred to KPAAF of North Korea, unconfirmed rumors though.

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## Deino

Polestar 2 said:


> J-10 export to PAF and North Korea AF ?





Shotgunner51 said:


> PLAAF's used *J-10A *getting transferred to KPAAF of North Korea, unconfirmed rumors though.




IMO highly unlikely if not impossible

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## Polestar 2

Shotgunner51 said:


> PLAAF's used *J-10A *getting transferred to KPAAF of North Korea, unconfirmed rumors though.


They have reveal some reports of North Korean pilot spotted training in China on twin seater J-10BS to familiarize themselves with piloting J-10A.

New shelter fighter plane bunker build recently in NK spotted by US satellite, likely NK AF expecting to induct new fighter plane.

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## world of power

Polestar 2 said:


> J-10 export to PAF and North Korea AF ?





Shotgunner51 said:


> PLAAF's used *J-10A *getting transferred to KPAAF of North Korea, unconfirmed rumors though.





Polestar 2 said:


> They have reveal some reports of North Korean pilot spotted training in China on twin seater J-10BS to familiarize themselves with piloting J-10A.
> New shelter fighter plane bunker build recently in NK spotted by US satellite, likely NK AF expecting to induct new fighter plane.


so again, for those chinese fanboys who want to give free J10 to pakistan & north korea, please bring any confirmed evidence;
because we believe only what we see and such NEVER happened

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## casual

world of power said:


> so again, for those chinese fanboys who want to give free J10 to pakistan & north korea, please bring any confirmed evidence;
> because we believe only what we see and such NEVER happened


no one cares about what you believe.

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## Deino

casual said:


> no one cares about what you believe.



Why? His post is correct! There no credible rumours concerning J10s to NK.


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## python-000

world of power said:


> so again, for those chinese fanboys who want to give free J10 to pakistan & north korea, please bring any confirmed evidence;
> because we believe only what we see and such NEVER happened


Just look how this indian darama clawn crying on this news...

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## python-000

Deino said:


> Why? His post is correct! There no credible rumours concerning J10s to NK.


No he is not because as we know about there were also just rumers & spaculations about vt4 & HQ-9 & then we wittness of there induction of PA so this is also become a reality very Soon...

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## casual

Deino said:


> Why? His post is correct! There no credible rumours concerning J10s to NK.


Speaking from a geopolitical prospective, these rumors are credible. Believe or not is up to you.

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## Deino

python-000 said:


> No he is not because as we know about there were also just rumers & spaculations about vt4 & HQ-9 & then we wittness of there induction of PA so this is also become a reality very Soon...




I am not questioning the Pakistani part of his post, but the one concerning NK.

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## vi-va

Deino said:


> IMO highly unlikely if not impossible


Definitely impossible. The rumor is bullshit.

North Korea is under UN sanctions, which China agreed. There is no way China will hand over J-10A, which is very sensitive.


Resolution 1874, passed after the second nuclear test in 2009, broadened the arms embargo. Member states were encouraged to inspect ships and destroy any cargo suspected of being related to the nuclear weapons program.[2][5]
Resolution 2087, passed in January 2013 after a satellite launch, strengthened previous sanctions by clarifying a state's right to seize and destroy cargo suspected of heading to or from North Korea for purposes of military research and development









List of United Nations Security Council resolutions concerning North Korea - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org

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## Polestar 2

vi-va said:


> Definitely impossible. The rumor is bullshit.
> 
> North Korea is under UN sanctions, which China agreed. There is no way China will hand over J-10A, which is very sensitive.
> 
> 
> Resolution 1874, passed after the second nuclear test in 2009, broadened the arms embargo. Member states were encouraged to inspect ships and destroy any cargo suspected of being related to the nuclear weapons program.[2][5]
> Resolution 2087, passed in January 2013 after a satellite launch, strengthened previous sanctions by clarifying a state's right to seize and destroy cargo suspected of heading to or from North Korea for purposes of military research and development
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List of United Nations Security Council resolutions concerning North Korea - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


Hi, J-10A is not that important anymore. PLAAF in phase to retired most J-10A and replace with J-10C. Gifting some to NK is not that impossible plus, u think NK will pass J-10A aerodynamic secret to US?

Finally, China is no more nice guy to play within UN rules when Australia bypass nuclear control proliferation treaty and going to get nuclear submarine with blessing from US. Why u expect China to play within rules when US and western can do whatever they deem is correct even its illegal? NK is close allies of China. Giving some J-10A to beef up their airforce is nothing wrong.

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## Avicenna

Deino said:


> IMO highly unlikely if not impossible



Why would you say this?

It's entirely possible given history and current dynamics.

Is it probable? Probably not.

But it's far more likely possible than impossible.

Anyways, time will tell.









N.Korea's Kim praises 'fresh heyday' in China relations as longtime envoy departs


North Korean leader Kim Jong Un praised outgoing Chinese Ambassador Li Jinjun for helping to improve relations between Pyongyang and Beijing, state media reported on Thursday, as the envoy left office after seven years in the post.




www.reuters.com





Also, you would have to think at SOME point NK has to replace those J-5, J-6 and J-7/Mig-21.

If I'm China, why not send later model retired J-7 variants and some J-10A to NK?

Nice to use NK as a proxy to divert US attention to NE Asia in addition to its other overall Pacific concerns and thin out US capabilities if needed.

The posted video actually addressed several points nicely.

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## Shotgunner51

So far there's no credible source on this, it remains a rumour.

Though in my own opinion, given the deteriorating geopolitical situation (Cold War 2.0) it's time for China to re-enact military aid to NK. At the same time KPAAF, an allied force of PLAAF, is already seriously out of shape and in dire need of an upgrade. I think hot transfer of certain type (or types) of used equipment is good for both PLAAF and KPAAF.

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## vi-va

Polestar 2 said:


> Hi, J-10A is not that important anymore. PLAAF in phase to retired most J-10A and replace with J-10C. Gifting some to NK is not that impossible plus, u think NK will pass J-10A aerodynamic secret to US?
> 
> Finally, China is no more nice guy to play within UN rules when Australia bypass nuclear control proliferation treaty and going to get nuclear submarine with blessing from US. Why u expect China to play within rules when US and western can do whatever they deem is correct even its illegal? NK is close allies of China. Giving some J-10A to beef up their airforce is nothing wrong.


*China will abide by UN resolution, period.*

China is one of P5, we are not Americans, we will do what we promised in UN.

North Korea doesn't need any more weapons, they need food, prosperity. North Korea security is guaranteed by Nukes.

If North Korea drop Nukes, China can and will revoke the UN sanctions, provides aids, conventional weapons, and prosperity.

*North Korea choose Nukes instead of prosperity, their choice was made. They knew it very well that, they can't have both nukes and prosperity.

The rumor is completely bullshit. Mark my words.

Last but not least, China doesn't need North Korea buffer zone.* China can defend herself without any problem. Our military burden is quite manageable.

China has no intention nor need to do arm race with AUKUS. AUKUS can do whatever they want, China has enough confidence that their fantasy will fail anyway, sooner or later.

Time changed. They want to repeat Cold War, but China has moved forward, the rest of the world don't want Cold War 2.0 anyway. People want safety, clean water, food, jobs, prosperity.

History will prove that China's choice is right.

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## Nan Yang

Polestar 2 said:


> Hi, J-10A is not that important anymore. PLAAF in phase to retired most J-10A and replace with J-10C. Gifting some to NK is not that impossible plus, u think NK will pass J-10A aerodynamic secret to US?
> 
> Finally, China is no more nice guy to play within UN rules when Australia bypass nuclear control proliferation treaty and going to get nuclear submarine with blessing from US. Why u expect China to play within rules when US and western can do whatever they deem is correct even its illegal? NK is close allies of China. Giving some J-10A to beef up their airforce is nothing wrong.


China relationship with N Korea must also take into consideration S Korea relationship with N Korea.


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## Scorpiooo

Whats is per hour operational cost of J10c ?


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## no smoking

vi-va said:


> *Last but not least, China doesn't need North Korea buffer zone.* China can defend herself without any problem. Our military burden is quite manageable.



I don't agree with this.
China still need North Korea as the buffer zone. If we lost NK, in the worst case, Americans can deploy her land force just in our front door. We have to move our military resources from other places to this front line. It will increase our defense pressure greatly. There is an example, from south korea, the streight flying distance to Beijing is roughly 900km, but from north korea, the distance will shortened to less than 700km, which means it is lot easier for US boombers to threat Chinese core part.

Yes, our military burden is quite manageable, but we are still facing huge economic and social challenge in current stage. One dollar more on military expense means one dollar less on other issues.

The secret of winning a arm race is making your enemy to spend more on the same issue.

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## vi-va

no smoking said:


> I don't agree with this.
> China still need North Korea as the buffer zone. If we lost NK, in the worst case, Americans can deploy her land force just in our front door. We have to move our military resources from other places to this front line. It will increase our defense pressure greatly. There is an example, from south korea, the streight flying distance to Beijing is roughly 900km, but from north korea, the distance will shortened to less than 700km, which means it is lot easier for US boombers to threat Chinese core part.
> 
> Yes, our military burden is quite manageable, but we are still facing huge economic and social challenge in current stage. One dollar more on military expense means one dollar less on other issues.
> 
> The secret of winning a arm race is making your enemy to spend more on the same issue.


Possible.
But by your logic, China was hijacked by the North. No, we don't.

The North did whatever he wanted, so China don't have any obligation to protect the North. China has strong ties with both North and South, we are neutral.

US has many chances to settle a deal with the North, but US had chosen no deal is better deal. Once the North and South settled, and united. The first thing to happen will be US troop out of Korean Peninsula.

China doesn't fear US troops on our border at all. It will cost US an arm and leg. It's the US's decision to keep the North as a buffer.

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## Shotgunner51

Since PLAAF academy changed its pilot training program since 2018 from 4 phases to 3 (indoctrination - development - transition), in the final phase (transition) cadets are trained on jets re-commissioned from combat duties. Recently the 1st batch of cadets graduated from the new program with J-10 (J-10AS dual seater for accompanied flight, J-10A for solo flight) transferred from combat troops, see the link:

PLAAF flight academy introduces J-10 fighers in flight training program of pilot cadets - China Military

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## airmarshal

Shotgunner51 said:


> Ain't that true, typical blown-out-of-proportion euro stuff!
> 
> 
> Now that's what we are talking about, real medium workhorses! Here is an opinion piece on 1V1 between the birds, quite a good read.
> 
> *[Analytics] Chinese J-10C vs US F-16V: Which fighter would prevail in an air*
> 
> View attachment 790469
> 
> J-10C '4++ generation' fighter jet pilot. Photo: Military Watch Magazine. Sketched by the Pan Pacific Agency.
> 
> Entering service in 2017 and 2018 respectively, the American F-16V and Chinese J-10C represent two of the most capable lightweight fighter jets in production today and considerable improvements over older baseline fourth generation designs. With each weighing approximately 13,000kg, deploying similarly sized radars, similar single engine configurations and similar weapons payloads, the aircraft are in many ways highly comparable. Both are being marketed for export today. Military Watch has observed both models.
> 
> The large majority of fighter jet classes in production today are configured with twin engines, from heavyweights such as the J-20 and F-15EX to medium designs such as the MiG-35 and Eurofighter, and even lightweight platforms such as the Kowsar and upcoming Taiwanese Brave Eagle. This places the J-10 and F-16 in a class of their own among modern fighter designs.
> 
> While other less prominent single engine designs are in production today, notably the Gripen, JF-17 and Tejas, these are all lighter and less capable than the American and Chinese platforms. The American F-35A is the only other prominent contemporary single engine fighter, although it is still very far from ready for high intensity combat and is unlikely to be until near the end of the decade. While the fifth generation design has considerable potential, it is much heavier, requires much more maintenance and is considerably more expensive to operate than the F-16 and J-10 which limits the possibility of making direct comparisons. Comparing the J-10C and the F-16V, however, can offer valuable insight into the state of Chinese and American military aviation – and which will prevail both in a potential conflict and on export markets.
> 
> The first F-16s entered service in 1978, meaning the airframe is now approaching 45 years old with no orders for the type from the U.S. Military for several years. The F-16V’s alterations to the original design are relatively conservative. There are no reductions to the radar cross section or applications of stealth coatings and no improvements to the F110 engine’s thrust have been made. Upgrades are restricted to avionics, with new cockpit displays, electronic warfare systems and an AESA radar all integrated. The fighter deploys the same AIM-120C missile as regular F-16 variants, although some reports indicate it could integrate AIM-120D missiles with a longer 180km range in future. The F-16V overall represents a cheaper idea for an ‘enhanced F-16’ to the F-16E – developed for the United Arab Emirates, the F-2 developed for Japan, and the F-21 concept currently being marketed to India – all of which have seen far more ambitious enhancements from high composite airframes and new more powerful engines.
> 
> The first J-10 fighters entered service in 2006, with the design benefitting from new technologies developed since the 1970s to provide a leading single engine platform. The fighter was slightly lighter than the F-16 but had a superior flight performance, with a more powerful AL-31 engine exceeding the capabilities of the American F110, a higher speed and operational altitude and superior manoeuvrability. Although its engine was more powerful, the airframe was slightly lighter which further increases its manoeuvrability advantage. There was not a single field in which the F-16 could boast superior capabilities over the J-10. Not only is the J-10 design more advanced, but the J-10C has seen more comprehensive improvements compared to the original design than the F-16V has relative to the original Fighting Falcon. These have included a reduced radar cross section, applications of stealth coatings, a greater use of composite materials a new more powerful AESA radar and integration of PL-15 air to air missiles. The PL-15 has an estimated range of 250-300km, comfortably outperforming any existing American design. The J-10C also benefits from integration of new WS-10B engines, which further increases the discrepancy between its own thrust and that of the F-16 with the new engine boasting considerably greater power than the AL-31. The WS-10B also benefits from three dimensional thrusts vectoring systems – the only non-Russian fighter to do so – providing a massive advantage in manoeuvrability. The F-16 has not integrated any kind of thrust vectoring engines.
> 
> Ultimately the superiority of the J-10C is overwhelming. The two jets may be well matched in terms of electronic warfare systems and situational awareness – although export variants of the F-16V will have a disadvantage due to downgraded avionics – the J-10C’s advantages in weaponry and flight performance are overwhelming. As stealth fighters continue to proliferate, the J-10 also has the advantage of integrating an infra red search and tracking system (IRST) allowing it to more effectively lock onto stealth fighters at medium ands short ranges. An IRST also allows the fighter to maintain high situational awareness without a radar signature if needed – something the F-16 cannot do. The discrepancy in the capabilities of the American and Chinese single engine fighters is reflected in the fact that the former much older design has not seen interest from the U.S. Air Force – while the J-10C continues to be mass produced and fielded by elite Chinese units.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://panpacificagency.com/news/china/05/05/analytics-chinese-j-10c-vs-us-f-16v-which-fighter-would-prevail-in-an-air-war/



Comparison is flawed. F-16 was developed after extensive US experience in warfare. US goes on perpetual wars because war is a business for USA. Its defence industry profits massively from these wars. So with that experience, USA developed a light fighter platform the features of which have been copied in later production fighter jets like JF-17 or J-10. It has been successful so much that almost 5000 have been sold. Even with 45 year old airframe, with upgraded avionics, F-16 is more than a match for current generation fighter jets. 

J-10 being inducted by elite Chinese squadrons while F-16 is not being inducted by American Air Force is not a testament of J-10 capability. It shows Americans are generations ahead as they are now inducting 5th generation aircraft.

However, this does not mean J-10 is inferior. Just that it has not been battle tested.

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## no smoking

vi-va said:


> The North did whatever he wanted, so China don't have any obligation to protect the North. China has strong ties with both North and South, we are neutral.



No, we do have obligation:

中朝友好合作互助条约









vi-va said:


> US has many chances to settle a deal with the North, but US had chosen no deal is better deal. Once the North and South settled, and united. The first thing to happen will be US troop out of Korean Peninsula.



There is no guarantee that US troop will leave Korean Peninsula once they are unified.



vi-va said:


> China doesn't fear US troops on our border at all. It will cost US an arm and leg. It's the US's decision to keep the North as a buffer.



No, it is opposite. South Korea is just US's ally not US homeland. US has no problem to win the war at the cost of last Korean. However, we are defending our homeland on this side. Just like Chairman Mao said, if we have to fight the war, we want to fight in other's land.

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## vi-va

no smoking said:


> No, we do have obligation:
> 
> 中朝友好合作互助条约
> 
> View attachment 807519
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no guarantee that US troop will leave Korean Peninsula once they are unified.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it is opposite. South Korea is just US's ally not US homeland. US has no problem to win the war at the cost of last Korean. However, we are defending our homeland on this side. Just like Chairman Mao said, if we have to fight the war, we want to fight in other's land.


I stop here. Off-topic. You can start a new thread *HERE* if you like


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## Shotgunner51

A flight training course by a brigade under the PLA Southern Theater Command on 28 December 2021 (HiRes Photos).

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## aliaselin



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## luciferdd

An interesting model

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## Deino

luciferdd said:


> An interesting model
> View attachment 812491




But it's is nothing but a model, you can clearly see the Trumpeter logo on the box it is standing and the typical RAM-powered what-if AAM.

By the way, happy Chinese New Year ... and when will AVIC finally paint a real J-10 in such colours?

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## johncliu88

Deino said:


> But it's is nothing but a model, you can clearly see the Trumpeter logo on the box it is standing and the typical RAM-powered what-if AAM.
> 
> By the way, happy Chinese New Year ... and when will AVIC finally paint a real J-10 in such colours?
> 
> View attachment 812569


Great picture and happy new year of tiger to everyone!

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## Scorpiooo

luciferdd said:


> An interesting model
> View attachment 812491


Any better quality image will really be interesting


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## Deino

Scorpiooo said:


> Any better quality image will really be interesting




It's nothing but a model ... similar - maybe even the same - like this.








www.moxingfans.com/works/plane/2020/1212/8517.html

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## luciferdd

Deino said:


> It's nothing but a model ... similar - maybe even the same - like this.
> 
> View attachment 812786
> 
> 
> 
> www.moxingfans.com/works/plane/2020/1212/8517.html


Some jokes may come true，a patent of Triple rack from CAC.有一些玩笑话嘛可能开着开着就会成真了...

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## Beast

luciferdd said:


> Some jokes may come true，a patent of Triple rack from CAC.
> View attachment 812866


Something like F-15 or F-4 phantom rack.

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## Beast

MH.Yang said:


> North Korea's economy has been in good shape in recent years. I think they should pay for these planes.



I don't think their economy is doing well. Even if they did paid for J-10a, the amount is merely symbolic.


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## MH.Yang

Beast said:


> I don't think their economy is doing well. Even if they did paid for J-10a, the amount is merely symbolic.


North Korea has resumed economic growth. 
Moreover, in recent years, North Koreans in China have remitted about 7 billion CNY($1.1 billion) to North Korea every year. 
The North Korean government should be able to pay $3 billion, $10 million per plane.


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## Beast

MH.Yang said:


> North Korea has resumed economic growth.
> Moreover, in recent years, North Koreans in China have remitted about 7 billion CNY($1.1 billion) to North Korea every year.
> The North Korean government should be able to pay $3 billion, $10 million per plane.


Very likely, CPC will not ask much for them. The plane maybe free but maintenance bill will need to be foot by North Korea for spares.


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## Deino

MH.Yang said:


> North Korea has resumed economic growth.
> Moreover, in recent years, North Koreans in China have remitted about 7 billion CNY($1.1 billion) to North Korea every year.
> The North Korean government should be able to pay $3 billion, $10 million per plane.




But the problem is not money nor China's ability to deliver, it's the arms embargo and I'm 100% sure, China will stick to it.

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## Beast

Deino said:


> But the problem is not money nor China's ability to deliver, it's the arms embargo and I'm 100% sure, China will stick to it.


China has been shipping many ban items into NK for many years. Even the TEL for their mobile ICBM is imported from China.

Tell me, how did the PL-10 and PL-12 end up in RNKAF inventories?

Who is US to tell China to sanction who? As if China care about US sanction on Iran and we buy record oil from Iran refineries in 2021.

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## MH.Yang

Beast said:


> Very likely, CPC will not ask much for them. The plane maybe free but maintenance bill will need to be foot by North Korea for spares.


The North Korean Air Force has about 100 MIG15, 100 J5/MIG17, and 40 J6/MIG19. These planes need to be replaced as soon as possible.
China has a total of 308 J10A and J10S. North Korea can also replace some old MIG21.

North Korea also has about 20 SU7 and 80 Q5.
China has 170 JH7A and 100 JH7s(30 of which have been retired). China can use 100 JH7 as a gift for the business, and North Korea can replace all SU7 and Q5 with them.

In this way, North Korea will have about 220 J10A, 88 J10S, 90 MIG21, 46 MIG23, 30 MIG29, 100 JH7 and 35 Su25. North Korea will have 438 4G fighters.


South Korea has about 60 F15K, 180 F16C/D and 60 FA50. A total of 300 4G fighters.
The gap between the air forces of the two countries will be significantly weak. North Korea is worth spending 19 billion CNY ($3 billion) on that.


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## MH.Yang

Beast said:


> China has been shipping many ban items into NK for many years. Even the TEL for their mobile ICBM is imported from China.
> 
> Tell me, how did the PL-10 and PL-12 end up in RNKAF inventories?
> 
> Who is US to tell China to sanction who? As if China care about US sanction on Iran and we buy record oil from Iran refineries in 2021.


Yes, China really doesn't care about US sanctions against other countries, but sanctions against North Korea come from the UN Security Council. 

North Korea was sanctioned by the United Nations for developing nuclear weapons, instead of using the veto, China voted in favour. At that time, only Vietnam and Libya opposed sanctions.

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## Deino

Beast said:


> China has been shipping many ban items into NK for many years. Even the TEL for their mobile ICBM is imported from China.
> 
> *1.* Tell me, how did the PL-10 and PL-12 end up in RNKAF inventories?
> 
> *2. *Who is US to tell China to sanction who? As if China care about US sanction on Iran and we buy record oil from Iran refineries in 2021.



First two points of concern:

1. Did "the PL-10 and PL-12" really "end up in RNKAF inventories" or could it be these are models/mock ups again? 

2. it is not the US who "China to sanction who" but the UN, and China did not veto this sanction!

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## Abid123

MH.Yang said:


> The North Korean Air Force has about 100 MIG15, 100 J5/MIG17, and 40 J6/MIG19. These planes need to be replaced as soon as possible.
> China has a total of 308 J10A and J10S. North Korea can also replace some old MIG21.
> 
> North Korea also has about 20 SU7 and 80 Q5.
> China has 170 JH7A and 100 JH7s(30 of which have been retired). China can use 100 JH7 as a gift for the business, and North Korea can replace all SU7 and Q5 with them.
> 
> In this way, North Korea will have about 220 J10A, 88 J10S, 90 MIG21, 46 MIG23, 30 MIG29, 100 JH7 and 35 Su25. North Korea will have 438 4G fighters.
> 
> 
> South Korea has about 60 F15K, 180 F16C/D and 60 FA50. A total of 300 4G fighters.
> The gap between the air forces of the two countries will be significantly weak. North Korea is worth spending 19 billion CNY ($3 billion) on that.


Bro South Korean air force does not have 180 F-16C/D. The real number is 118 F-16. 49D variants are used for training. So total is F-16 is 167. 

To give you the exact number of 3G generation combat jets of ROKAF:

118 F-16
59 F-15k
60 FA-50
Total: 237 3G fighers

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## Deino

MH.Yang said:


> North Korea has resumed economic growth.
> Moreover, in recent years, North Koreans in China have remitted about 7 billion CNY($1.1 billion) to North Korea every year.
> The North Korean government should be able to pay $3 billion, $10 million per plane.




I beg you for a request but at the same time I need to apologise since I asked to clean the PAF & J-10C thread from the NK stuff ... now however I noticed that I did not save that most interesting image showing PL-10 & PL-12 AAMs. So could you please re-post it here again?

Deino


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## Beast

Deino said:


> First two points of concern:
> 
> 1. Did "the PL-10 and PL-12" really "end up in RNKAF inventories" or could it be these are models/mock ups again?
> 
> 2. it is not the US who "China to sanction who" but the UN, and China did not veto this sanction!


I can not really comfirm but a reports few months again indicated new air shelter, north Korean pilot spotted training in China. There is never such practice NK pilot send to China for training or mock up exercise. The only conclusion from those observation is , they are send to China to train for new type of fighter.

China promised not to sell missile that exceed 300km under weapon proliferation back by UN resolution . And yet we know Saudi buys DF-21 missile and even received ToT of such missile from China.

NK is always a backyard for PRC and we signed a partnership treaty with NK that's makes China oblige to provide defense weapon to help NK defend itself against aggressor.

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## MH.Yang

Deino said:


> I beg you for a request but at the same time I need to apologise since I asked to clean the PAF & J-10C thread from the NK stuff ... now however I noticed that I did not save that most interesting image showing PL-10 & PL-12 AAMs. So could you please re-post it here again?
> 
> Deino



You are welcome.

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## MH.Yang

Deino said:


> 1. Did "the PL-10 and PL-12" really "end up in RNKAF inventories" or could it be these are models/mock ups again?



You may not know much about North Korea. This is a personal display of North Korean leader Kim Jong Un. The North Korean military is unlikely to deceive their leaders with non-existent weapons. Therefore, even if it is a model, the North Korean military will certainly have real objects.

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## MH.Yang

Beast said:


> I can not really comfirm but a reports few months again indicated new air shelter, north Korean pilot spotted training in China. There is never such practice NK pilot send to China for training or mock up exercise. The only conclusion from those observation is , they are send to China to train for new type of fighter.
> 
> China promised not to sell missile that exceed 300km under weapon proliferation back by UN resolution . And yet we know Saudi buys DF-21 missile and even received ToT of such missile from China.
> 
> NK is always a backyard for PRC and we signed a partnership treaty with NK that's makes China oblige to provide defense weapon to help NK defend itself against aggressor.


Yes, it is politically possible.
In 2009, China endorsed the UN Security Council resolution on arms embargo against North Korea for a reason.
In 2008, the economic crisis broke out in USA. China and USA reached an agreement, and China decided to intervene in the U.S. economic crisis. China's relations with USA have temporarily entered a period of friendship. China is ready to use this period to build a Northeast Asia free trade area with South Korea, Japan and Russia. However, North Korea's frequent missile tests undermine the situation in Northeast Asia and provoke Obama. China needs to give Kim Il Sung a warning.
In recent years, the attitude of North Korea has changed a lot. With the deepening of the agricultural cooperation agreement between China and North Korea in 2004, North Korea has got rid of the problem of famine. North Koreans have enough sense of security, and will not fear and undermine the economic exchanges between China and South Korea and other countries. I think China can consider relaxing the arms embargo on North Korea.

BTW: In January 2022, the UN's new sanctions agreement on North Korea was not adopted by the Security Council. Now USS is imposing unilateral sanctions on North Korea. On February 7, 2022, China has publicly opposed such unilateral sanctions.

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## Shotgunner51

Nice pic of J-10B (and J-16), from International Army Games 2021 in Russia

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## Deino

Wow 😮 not only since it is the first image of a Batch 07 J-10C, but also since it confirms indeed that the J-10CPs for Pakistan are Batch 07! 

And this is already the 20th J-10C within the 7th Batch.

(Image via liming1995/SDF)

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## Beast

MH.Yang said:


> You may not know much about North Korea. This is a personal display of North Korean leader Kim Jong Un. The North Korean military is unlikely to deceive their leaders with non-existent weapons. Therefore, even if it is a model, the North Korean military will certainly have real objects.


Precisely, if those are props to cheat the beloved Leader Kim. Those idiot will surely meet the firing squad. They wouldnt dare to take some risk. Definitely its confirm before putting on display.


----------



## Sohail Niazai

Deino said:


> Wow 😮 not only since it is the first image of a Batch 07 J-10C, but also since it confirms indeed that the J-10CPs for Pakistan are Batch 07!
> 
> And this is already the 20th J-10C within the 7th Batch.
> 
> (Image via liming1995/SDF)
> 
> View attachment 816301


And missing back antenna same as PAF J10C


----------



## Trailer23

@帅的一匹 
*Q. Are there any limits on Engine Usage*?*
*Afterburner usage wise.

*Q. Self Protection Jammer (SPJ) - is it embedded or Pod?*

I asked these questions on the Pakistan Air Force Thread, but couldn't get an answer (especially relating to the SPJ)

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## Invictus01

Abid123 said:


> Bro South Korean air force does not have 180 F-16C/D. The real number is 118 F-16. 49D variants are used for training. So total is F-16 is 167.
> 
> To give you the exact number of 3G generation combat jets of ROKAF:
> 
> 118 F-16
> 59 F-15k
> 60 FA-50
> Total: 237 3G fighers



Did you just count out the D varient because somehow it's for Training and is not capable of going into real combat?

You must be pretty naive to believe that
The D varients aren't toothless
They can carry out combat activity as effectively as the single seat versions


----------



## Deino

Concerning the differences between the Batch 07 and previous batches some interesting Tweets have been posted and even if there are some undeniable differences, the comparison to a Batch 02 J-10C is off, since it was in fact the first production batch.
So, what do you think?

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## Stealth



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## Deino

Stealth said:


> View attachment 817149




And this bombastic statement is based on what?? ... could you please also provide the link for this site?


----------



## Riz

Deino said:


> And this bombastic statement is based on what?? ... could you please also provide the link for this site?


Link Already existed on the picture


----------



## Deino

Riz said:


> Link Already existed on the picture




Well ... that's only the link to their main site but not to that specific one.

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## Stealth

Deino said:


> And this bombastic statement is based on what?? ... could you please also provide the link for this site?



It was the headline back in Aug/Sept 2021...

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## clibra

Stealth said:


> View attachment 817708
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was the headline back in Aug/Sept 2021...


Looks fancy but this is still a sub-stealth fighter, about Gen. 4.75.
CAC need to develop a fully stealth Gen. 5 fighter based on WS-15 advanced engine.
It's reasonable that a high BPR version of WS-15(like F-135) can achieve 18 ton+ thrust, which can support a 30t MTOW fighter, similar as F35C.

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## Deino

Three more images ...

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## johncliu88

Deino said:


> Three more images ...
> 
> View attachment 819507
> View attachment 819508
> View attachment 819509


Great pictures. Thanks for sharing. Are we going to see some dual seaters soon? Or PAF just ordered the single seat ones?


----------



## Deino

Finally confirmed! It was long expected, but until now never seen before: A PLAAF J-10C carrying a YJ-83K AShM.

(Image via @鼎盛大彪 from Weibo)

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## johncliu88

Just another thought, if WS-15 engine is installed onto J-10, what are we going to expect?


----------



## Scorpiooo

johncliu88 said:


> Just another thought, if WS-15 engine is installed onto J-10, what are we going to expect?


May be possible in its D or E future variant


----------



## applesauce

johncliu88 said:


> Just another thought, if WS-15 engine is installed onto J-10, what are we going to expect?


different size engine. not going to fit.

you might as well develop a new plane and design it around the lastest tech if youre gonna use the ws-15.

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## johncliu88

applesauce said:


> different size engine. not going to fit.
> 
> you might as well develop a new plane and design it around the lastest tech if youre gonna use the ws-15.


The reason why I raised this question because J-20 can use WS-10 engines, so I think that the WS-15 should have similar size as WS-10.

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## Shotgunner51

A2G loadout





Credit @East Pendulum

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## Beast

applesauce said:


> different size engine. not going to fit.
> 
> you might as well develop a new plane and design it around the lastest tech if youre gonna use the ws-15.


Absolutely nonsense from somebody. 

WS-15 definitely can fit onto J-10C. WS-10C can fit J-20 and J-10C and that means WS-15 can also fit J-10C since WS-15 definitely can fit J-20.

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## Scorpiooo

Beast said:


> Absolutely nonsense from somebody.
> 
> WS-15 definitely can fit onto J-10C. WS-10C can fit J-20 and J-10C and that means WS-15 can also fit J-10C since WS-15 definitely can fit J-20.


Whats the size difference in ws10c and ws15


----------



## Beast

Scorpiooo said:


> Whats the size difference in ws10c and ws15


It supposed to share same dimension but different generation.



Shotgunner51 said:


> A2G loadout
> 
> View attachment 823805
> 
> Credit @East Pendulum


I think the 2 laser guided bombs can fit the pylon behind the targeting and jammer pod. The space on wing can be replaced by PL-12 BVRAAM. It will be quite suicide to go into air without BVRAAM.

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## rcrmj

johncliu88 said:


> Just another thought, if WS-15 engine is installed onto J-10, what are we going to expect?


J-10 XYZ ??

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## Silicon0000

I read somewhere PAF J10C has pulse doppler radar while Chinese J10C has AESA......... Can anyone confirm?

Found it. 











Here's a Comparison of J-10C and JF-17 Thunder Fighter Jets


The A-5C, J-7, Mirage III, and Mirage V jets effectively guarded the aerial boundaries of Pakistan for decades before they were replaced with JF-17




propakistani.pk





Not a reliable site but if anyone can confirm???

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## m52k85

Silicon0000 said:


> I read somewhere PAF J10C has pulse doppler radar while Chinese J10C has AESA......... Can anyone confirm?
> 
> Found it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a Comparison of J-10C and JF-17 Thunder Fighter Jets
> 
> 
> The A-5C, J-7, Mirage III, and Mirage V jets effectively guarded the aerial boundaries of Pakistan for decades before they were replaced with JF-17
> 
> 
> 
> 
> propakistani.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a reliable site but if anyone can confirm???


Incorrect, we have official confirmation from speech by the PAF Chief that PAF J-10s have AESA radar.

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## Bleek

Silicon0000 said:


> I read somewhere PAF J10C has pulse doppler radar while Chinese J10C has AESA......... Can anyone confirm?
> 
> Found it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a Comparison of J-10C and JF-17 Thunder Fighter Jets
> 
> 
> The A-5C, J-7, Mirage III, and Mirage V jets effectively guarded the aerial boundaries of Pakistan for decades before they were replaced with JF-17
> 
> 
> 
> 
> propakistani.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a reliable site but if anyone can confirm???


Definitely not true

Why would we spend money on a new platform which doesn't even have an AESA radar?

Plus it is already stated to have an AESA radar

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## Beast



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## Shotgunner51

J-10A in a CAS loadout with 8×250kg low drag, 2×PL8 AAM, 3×Tank

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## Shotgunner51

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1506650179008700426

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## Introvert



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## Beast



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## LKJ86

J-10C













via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-03/17/content_10141475.htm

















Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-03/21/content_10142274.htm

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## jaybird

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 827408
> View attachment 827409
> View attachment 827410
> View attachment 827411
> 
> via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-03/17/content_10141475.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 827412
> View attachment 827413
> View attachment 827414
> View attachment 827415
> 
> Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-03/21/content_10142274.htm


Welcome back! Was worry and wondering what happen to you.

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## LKJ86

jaybird said:


> Welcome back! Was worry and wondering what happen to you.


My work keeps me busy.😂

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## LKJ86

Via @央视军事 from Weibo

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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-10C
> View attachment 827408
> View attachment 827409
> View attachment 827410
> View attachment 827411
> 
> via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-03/17/content_10141475.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 827412
> View attachment 827413
> View attachment 827414
> View attachment 827415
> 
> Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-03/21/content_10142274.htm



Welcome back my friend, I think I‘m not alone to say, we missed you!

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## LKJ86

J-10C & J-10S




Via http://www.plapic.com.cn/pub/2022-02/11/content_10130871.htm

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## LKJ86

J-10AH & PL-10







Via @解放军报 from Weibo

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## Beast



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## LKJ86

J-10AH and J-10SH













Via @解放军报 from Weibo

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## Beast



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## Windjammer

Good Capture for size comparison.

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## LKJ86

J-10C



















Via 央视军事

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## LKJ86

J-10C







Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-03/29/content_10144276.htm

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## Princeps Senatus

I have a question. Do J-10Cs frequently carry SPJ pods like the KJ-600 or is the on board EW suite good enough to not necessitate carrying such pods?


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## LKJ86

J-10C













Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-03/31/content_10145003.htm

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## LKJ86

J-10A and J-10S



















Via @中部战区 from Weibo

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## lcloo

Princeps Senatus said:


> I have a question. Do J-10Cs frequently carry SPJ pods like the KJ-600 or is the on board EW suite good enough to not necessitate carrying such pods?


Excure my ignorance, what is SPJ pods, and is it a component of KJ-600 AEWC aircraft?

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## Princeps Senatus

lcloo said:


> Excure my ignorance, what is SPJ pods, and is it a component of KJ-600 AEWC aircraft?


By accident I typed KJ-600 instead of KG-600, my bad 

SPJ = Self Protection Jammer

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## lcloo

Princeps Senatus said:


> By accident I typed KJ-600 instead of KG-600, my bad
> 
> SPJ = Self Protection Jammer


I'm just citing from Chinese wikipedia, nothing was mentioned in regard to J10C but I assume it can carry same external pods like J10B. I don't know what is KG800, could be a more powerful pod than KG600.

KG800机载自卫干扰吊舱 literally translated as KG800 self-defense jammer pod. So SPJ it is.

Pods carried by J10B:-
1. OC5 Laser designator pod
2. YS3 Day-Night targeting pod
3. KG800 self-defense electronic counter meausre pod




*
外挂吊舱 External Pods*
J-10/10A：

KG600机载自卫干扰吊舱
KZ900机载侦查吊舱
OC5激光照射吊舱


J-10B：

OC5激光照射吊舱
鹰隼3昼夜瞄准调仓
KG800机载自卫干扰吊舱

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## Scorpiooo

Is J10S dual seater still in production?


----------



## Deino

lcloo said:


> I'm just citing from Chinese wikipedia, nothing was mentioned in regard to J10C but I assume it can carry same external pods like J10B. I don't know what is KG800, could be a more powerful pod than KG600.
> 
> KG800机载自卫干扰吊舱 literally translated as KG800 self-defense jammer pod. So SPJ it is.
> 
> Pods carried by J10B:-
> 1. OC5 Laser designator pod
> 2. YS3 Day-Night targeting pod
> 3. KG800 self-defense electronic counter meausre pod
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 外挂吊舱 External Pods*
> J-10/10A：
> 
> KG600机载自卫干扰吊舱
> KZ900机载侦查吊舱
> OC5激光照射吊舱
> 
> 
> J-10B：
> 
> OC5激光照射吊舱
> 鹰隼3昼夜瞄准调仓
> KG800机载自卫干扰吊舱




But at least the KG800 - which is a massive pod - wasn't seen so far on any J-10. Similar that KZ900 pod we've haven't seen yet


----------



## Princeps Senatus

Deino said:


> But at least the KG800 - which is a massive pod - wasn't seen so far on any J-10. Similar that KZ900 pod we've haven't seen yet


do J-10Cs frequently carry SPJ pods or is it just the J-10As and J-10Bs?


----------



## lcloo

Deino said:


> But at least the KG800 - which is a massive pod - wasn't seen so far on any J-10. Similar that KZ900 pod we've haven't seen yet


Agreed. I think PLAAF is not equiping these pods for J10B/C.

As to why these pods are listed in Chinese wikipedia, I made a check and found that during the 2016 Zhuhai airshows, a J10B was on a static display, and a lot of missiles, bombs and pods were put in display for this aircraft. Obviously the person who made the Chinese wikipedia entrey was based on the items sighted for J10b static display.

Among the pods on display for J10B were KG800, YingS-III ( which I earlier translated as YS3) and OC5 pod. In high probability PLAAF are not using them for J10B/C, but the static display in 2016 Zhuhai airshow might indicate J10B's capability to carry them despite their large size.

Items displayed at Zhuhai airshows are meant for export thus PLAAF J10B/C may not equiped with them.

Photos from 2016 Zhuhai Airshow, missiles, bombs and pods for J10B.

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## LKJ86




----------



## Windjammer

PAF's first group of Dragon Tamers.

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## Beast



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## LKJ86

J-10S and JL-10








Via 空军在线

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## Akasa

J-10C over a field:

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## johncliu88

Akasa said:


> J-10C over a field:
> 
> View attachment 833233
> 
> View attachment 833232


Thanks for the great picture. Haha, I can see 2 guys taking photo/video not far away. Did they wear any ear protection device?


----------



## LKJ86

J-10C




Via 解放军报

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## LKJ86

J100101
















Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-04/14/content_10147704.htm

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## johncliu88

Any more news regarding China will scrap some earlier J-10's and sell them to N.K?


----------



## Deino

johncliu88 said:


> Any more news regarding China will scrap some earlier J-10's and sell them to N.K?




Just look at the post above! This is the very first serial J-10 and it is still active ... as such - and in mind of still many J-7s in service for much longer - I rate is pure nonsense, that the PLAAF will retire them.
Selling to NK may be an option indeed, but otherwise they are surely still better in any way than any J-7 and will soldier on for many years to come even in second grade units.


----------



## LKJ86

Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via 央广军事

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## LKJ86

Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @南部战区 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @南部战区 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/tp/2022-04/28/content_10149210.htm

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## LKJ86

J-10ASH




Via http://www.mod.gov.cn/power/2022-05/14/content_4910804.htm

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## CHI RULES

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 838885
> View attachment 838886
> View attachment 838887
> View attachment 838888
> View attachment 838889
> View attachment 838890
> View attachment 838891
> View attachment 838892
> View attachment 838893
> 
> Via @南部战区 from Weixin


Can u please guide that if any J10D variant is under development with enhanced stealth as rumors are there.


----------



## LKJ86



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## johncliu88

The old J-10's still look really healthy and strong. Great video!


----------



## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-05/20/content_10156785.htm

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## LKJ86

Via @东部战区 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C






















Via @南部战区 from Weibo

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## S10

I think it's time the J-10A receives MLU package in the next few years, along with some early production J-10B. The threat environment has evolved and these units need some updates to stay alive on the modern battlefield.


----------



## LKJ86

J-10C




Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## Abdul salam farooqi

Hmmm


----------



## Deino

Abdul salam farooqi said:


> Hmmm




Clearly a CG only made by @四川地产界高层-军事 from Weibo


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1530821468912861184

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## LKJ86

J-10C










Via @央视军事 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10C






















Via @央视军事 from Weibo

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## python-000

Deino said:


> Clearly a CG only made by @四川地产界高层-军事 from Weibo
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1530821468912861184


Wow how realistic CG of stealth J-10D...


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## Abid123

Is there a J-10D version?


----------



## FuturePAF

python-000 said:


> Wow how realistic CG of stealth J-10D...


If realized and equipped with the WS-15, it would make a good counter to anything the IAF and the IN currently have planned or envisioned for the foreseeable future.

But this will most likely probably remain just a CG daydream unless it gets some serious backing in the PLAAF.

If they actually build it, for maximum stealth they should consider the “Pelikan” tail envisioned for the X-32.











Perhaps it would be closer to this


----------



## 帅的一匹

FuturePAF said:


> If realized and equipped with the WS-15, it would make a good counter to anything the IAF and the IN currently have planned or envisioned for the foreseeable future.
> 
> But this will most likely probably remain just a CG daydream unless it gets some serious backing in the PLAAF.
> 
> If they actually build it, for maximum stealth they should consider the “Pelikan” tail envisioned for the X-32.
> 
> 
> View attachment 849473
> 
> View attachment 849474
> 
> 
> Perhaps it would be closer to this
> View attachment 849475


A single engine stealthy design will only realize in the form of AZM.


----------



## Deino

帅的一匹 said:


> A single engine stealthy design will only realize in the form of AZM.




Really? I thought AZM is definitely a twin-engined design?

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> Really? I thought AZM is definitely a twin-engined design?


It’s too early to say that


----------



## LKJ86

J-10C





Via 空军在线

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## LKJ86

J-10C













Via http://www.mod.gov.cn/power/2022-06/14/content_4912951.htm

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## LKJ86

J-10C




























Via @东部战区 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @东部战区 from Weibo

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## White and Green with M/S

帅的一匹 said:


> A single engine stealthy design will only realize in the form of AZM.


No AZM will be twin engine medium weight as per CAD design


----------



## Deino

White and Green with M/S said:


> No AZM will be twin engine medium weight as per CAD design




Actually I don‘t think a CAD design has been revealed already?!

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## White and Green with M/S

Deino said:


> Actually I don‘t think a CAD design has been revealed already?!


Not officially sir but as per PDF senior members posted image of CAD from unknown sources AZM will be twin engine medium weight design based on YF-23 design

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## LKJ86

J-10C
















Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-06/29/content_10167391.htm

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## LKJ86

Via @南部战区 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-07/07/content_10169564.htm

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.mod.gov.cn/power/2022-07/10/content_4915263.htm

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.mod.gov.cn/shouye/2022-07/12/content_4915410.htm

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## Deino

Eventually another surprise from CAC:😯 ..the J-10D prototype!??

Regardless how strange this one looks 😵‍💫… the discussion is still going on if this is real or once again a faked one or a converted prototype?? 🤔 Especially why still an AL-31FN again and not the WS-10B/C? 

(Image via @Fighterman_久丽美学研究 from Weibo)

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## Scorpiooo

Deino said:


> Eventually another surprise from CAC:😯 ..the J-10D prototype!??
> 
> Regardless how strange this one looks 😵‍💫… the discussion is still going on if this is real or once again a faked one or a converted prototype?? 🤔 Especially why still an AL-31FN again and not the WS-10B/C?
> 
> (Image via @Fighterman_久丽美学研究 from Weibo)
> 
> View attachment 860880


Will it be old prototype converted or fresh prototype with old engine


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## Deino

Scorpiooo said:


> Will it be old prototype converted or fresh prototype with old engine




IMO an older J-10B - maybe a prototype - converted to D!

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## Scorpiooo

Deino said:


> IMO an older J-10B - maybe a prototype - converted to D!


So mean early experimental bird for RnD with structure enhancements

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## SQ8

Deino said:


> Eventually another surprise from CAC:😯 ..the J-10D prototype!??
> 
> Regardless how strange this one looks 😵‍💫… the discussion is still going on if this is real or once again a faked one or a converted prototype?? 🤔 Especially why still an AL-31FN again and not the WS-10B/C?
> 
> (Image via @Fighterman_久丽美学研究 from Weibo)
> 
> View attachment 860880


Not that its a beauty contest but that spine really looks out of place both aesthetically, structurally and aerodynamically

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## S10

SQ8 said:


> Not that its a beauty contest but that spine really looks out of place both aesthetically, structurally and aerodynamically


If it's indeed the D variant, it's aimed at electronic warfare and jamming. That spine may house countermeasures against radars.

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## luciferdd

Deino said:


> ：什么：
> 
> 最终来自 CAC 的另一个惊喜：😯 ..J-10D 原型机！？？
> 
> 不管这个看起来多么奇怪😵‍💫……讨论仍在继续，这是真的还是假的还是改装的原型？🤔 尤其是为什么还是 AL-31FN 而不是 WS-10B/C？
> 
> （图片来自微博@Fighterman_久丽美学研究）
> 
> View attachment 860880


It's not J10D,it is an export variant for one country,but it has some techs from the real J-10D project for example the CFT=》news from Military commentator"杨基 and 施佬"。


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## SQ8

S10 said:


> If it's indeed the D variant, it's aimed at electronic warfare and jamming. That spine may house countermeasures against radars.


I meant from a design perspective there could have been more elegant solutions than just slapping an additional rectangular section on top.

To me it it seems out of place and possibly still a fake. If a D had to be built then why not the two seater? Makes a lot more sense


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## LKJ86

Via 空军在线


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## Deino

luciferdd said:


> It's not J10D,it is an export variant for one country,but it has some techs from the real J-10D project for example the CFT=》news from Military commentator"杨基 and 施佬"。




Where do you see a CFT? All I see is an enlarged spine but that‘s not a CFT!

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## luciferdd

Deino said:


> Where do you see a CFT? All I see is an enlarged spine but that‘s not a CFT!


Calm down,it just not installed on the plane by now


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## Deino

luciferdd said:


> Calm down,it just not installed on the plane by now




Calm down is fine when anyone else is hyping thongs that are not yet visible. Given on what some claim to have seen within the last hours we either see a fake, a testbed for the J-10D, a super-secret Pakistani version, a J-10CY for the Ba Yi, some see straight wings, CFTs and wingtip pylons ... but I should "calm down"??

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## The SC

J10D

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## Deino

The SC said:


> J10D
> View attachment 861495




No, just an INO stupid what-if artwork, but overall unrealistic


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## LKJ86

Via @东部战区 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/tp/2022-07/15/content_10170152.htm

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## Deino

A second image of the alleged J-10D prototype/demonstrator was posted and at least from this angle it looks no longer that strange.

Image via @Fighterman_FFRC

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## MajesticPug

Deino said:


> A second image of the alleged J-10D prototype/demonstrator was posted and at least from this angle it looks no longer that strange.


Could that spine be just extra oil tank? One of the loudest criticisms lobbed against J10C is its range (I know, people like to compare it to twin-engine fighters) and this might be the answer. With the extra range, countries not planning to invest heavily on oil tankers can have a fighter jet that's comparable to elite twin-engine fighters in performances and range on a budget without compromising its missile numbers.

Argentina, Brazil, Iran, and even Pakistan can use a longer-ranged J10.

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## johncliu88

Deino said:


> A second image of the alleged J-10D prototype/demonstrator was posted and at least from this angle it looks no longer that strange.
> 
> Image via @Fighterman_FFRC
> 
> View attachment 862886


Nice photo and thanks for sharing. Can someone tell if the engine nozzle is bending down? Is this a TVS engine?


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## siegecrossbow

johncliu88 said:


> Nice photo and thanks for sharing. Can someone tell if the engine nozzle is bending down? Is this a TVS engine?



Probably lens distortion since the engine is AL-31.

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## LKJ86

Via @解放军报 from Weibo

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## Deino

Deino said:


> A second image of the alleged J-10D prototype/demonstrator was posted and at least from this angle it looks no longer that strange.
> 
> Image via @Fighterman_FFRC
> 
> View attachment 862886



I just got a new image and indeed it has some sort of device installed under its tail that strongly hints towards a system for releasing smoke trails. ... so at least this round goes to J-10CY. 😉

Also, it is a J-10C with the construction no. '701' aka batch 07 aircraft no 01.

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## KampfAlwin

Deino said:


> I just got a new image and indeed it has some sort of device installed under its tail that strongly hints towards a system for releasing smoke trails. ... so at least this round goes to J-10CY. 😉
> 
> Also, it is a J-10C with the construction no. '701' aka batch 07 aircraft no 01.
> 
> View attachment 863424
> View attachment 863423


What do you speculate for the use of the large spine for the Ba Yi, if any? Also it has the slim HUD, was that present in this batch for other aircraft?


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## Deino

KampfAlwin said:


> What do you speculate for the use of the large spine for the Ba Yi, if any? Also it has the slim HUD, was that present in this batch for other aircraft?




Actually, I'm confused ... In fact this is really strange 🤔😯 ... since mid-2019 we had not a single J-10C flying with the AL-31FN, so why this one, a Batch 07 aircraft? And we've seen already Batch 07 J-10Cs weith WS-10B!

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## dbc

S10 said:


> If it's indeed the D variant, it's aimed at electronic warfare and jamming. That spine may house countermeasures against radars.



electronic Jammers and such are line of sight devices installing it on the spine makes little sense. I speculate the spine is designed to house wiring and hydraulic tubing improving the maintainability of the aircraft thus making more room for fuel.

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## dbc

Deino said:


> View attachment 863424
> View attachment 863423
> I just got a new image and indeed it has some sort of device installed under its tail that strongly hints towards a system for releasing smoke trails. ... so at least this round goes to J-10CY.




I‘d once again speculate the Chinese are trying to improve engine fuel efficiency and performance by ionizing the air/fuel.


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## lcloo

The J10CY with Russian AL-31FN engine may be is due to logistic consideration. Since the August 1st acrobacics flying team is equiped with J10AY and J10SY with AL-31FN, any new aircraft inducted into the team should be equiped with the same engine.

They could equiped J10CY from existing stock of spare engines or a used engine dismantled from an existing J10A/B, or a newly bought engines from Russia.

However, if all J10AY are to be replaced by J10CY, then the choice of AL-31FN for J10CY does make one wonder why.

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## Ali_Baba

The idea of making physical - structural changes of that nature(they look invasive and would affect the FBW) for a display team seems odd/un heard of ..

it is confusing for sure. I am still of the view it is for a variant with more avionics/ew gear just like the f16s that israel/paf has ... lets see..


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## Princeps Senatus

Ali_Baba said:


> The idea of making physical - structural changes of that nature(they look invasive and would affect the FBW) for a display team seems odd/un heard of ..
> 
> it is confusing for sure. I am still of the view it is for a variant with more avionics/ew gear just like the f16s that israel/paf has ... lets see..


the two seater f-16s don't contain more electronics than single seat, they just had to move the electronics to the spine because of the second seat


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## Deino

lcloo said:


> The J10CY with Russian AL-31FN engine may be is due to logistic consideration. Since the August 1st acrobacics flying team is equiped with J10AY and J10SY with AL-31FN, any new aircraft inducted into the team should be equiped with the same engine.
> 
> They could equiped J10CY from existing stock of spare engines or a used engine dismantled from an existing J10A/B, or a newly bought engines from Russia.
> 
> However, if all J10AY are to be replaced by J10CY, then the choice of AL-31FN for J10CY does make one wonder why.




At least it eases maintenance since the 72nd Air Brigade, which is collocated with the Ba Yi also uses AL-31FN-powered J-10Cs from older batches


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## gambit

Princeps Senatus said:


> the two seater f-16s don't contain more electronics than single seat, they just had to move the electronics to the spine because of the second seat


No. Two seater F-16 have a smaller forward fuel tank to make room for the rear cockpit, and additional electronics for the rear cockpits, but the major avionics components remains in the same places: the forward avionics bays right behind the radome.

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## gambit

dbc said:


> electronic Jammers and such are line of sight devices installing it on the spine makes little sense. I speculate the spine is designed to house wiring and hydraulic tubing improving the maintainability of the aircraft thus making more room for fuel.


It is the radiators that are LOS. The dorsal (spine) compartments are to house the electronics components, then the wiring are branched from there to the radiators. Fuselage fuel capacity is fixed from design so additional fuselage capacity require fuselage modifications which I doubt happened.

Fuel capacity includes fuel management. Fuselage fuel tanks literally wraps around the engine bay and have baffles in them to reduce, not eliminate, fuel movements (sloshes) because they induces undesirable body forces during maneuvers. Fuel management moves fuel from tank to tank to reduce effects on center-of-gravity shifts. So if the design is modified to include increased fuselage fuel capacity, we are looking at major redesign such as a lengthened fuselage which would be quickly visible from photos.

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## Deino

KampfAlwin said:


> What do you speculate for the use of the large spine for the Ba Yi, if any? Also it has the slim HUD, was that present in this batch for other aircraft?




Here is what I got today ..

In fact based on some chats with a few Chinese friends including the one who provided me with this image, there are three different options under discussion and all three seem to fit together

1. This one is for the Ba Yi and is called J-10CY, the smoke generator and the smokewinder-like pod are IMO proof enough as well as the deleted gun, The strange fact, that it uses AL-31FN is most often explained by two options: first, the Ba Yi want an aircraft with as much as possible the same kinematics so that they retain the old engine. Also, the AL-31FN is often said to be a bit more responsive from AB ignition to full thrust, so maybe this too is a reason and finally, the 72nd Air Brigade, which is collocated with the Ba Yi also uses AL-31FN since it uses older batch J-10Cs. As such, it eases maintenance and the spine houses an oil tank for the smoke + whatever is needed.

2. Second theory, the PLAAF in fact wants an MLU package for the older J-10A (some say B/C) and this includes additional avionics, eventually an internal ECM-jammer like the KL-700, which would fit quite nicely and would free the then used intake pylon. Actually I don‘t think it is a CFT or fuel tank, for this, the added volume is IMO not large enough.

3. And finally, this spine seems to be also made on request from an as yet unnamed export customer - IMO indeed Pakistan (as per a friend at PAC Kamra) - again to fit additional avionics/EW/ECM systems.

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## LKJ86

Via @央广军事 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @南部战区 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @摄影人王正坤 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @ccccharlie3 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via @前站起飞 from Weibo

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## Abid123

The publication of images of a new configuration of China’s J-10 single engine fighter has sparked widespread speculation regarding the aircraft’s purpose, how widely it will be fielded, and what the spine itself houses. The J-10 is a lightweight combat jet currently in production on a larger scale than any other in the world, aside from the American F-35, with the newest variant the J-10C considered a close contender for the title of the world’s top single engine fighter. The aircraft is prized for its low maintenance needs and operational costs, its powerful AESA radar and network centric warfare capabilities, and its access to advanced weapons classes such as PL-15 air to air missiles. The newly revealed J-10 notably uses the older Russian AL-31FN engine, which has been phased out of new production batches in favour of the indigenous WS-10, indicating that it may be intended as an upgrade package for older J-10 variants or else that China’s Air Force is seeking to conserve the newer engines for production aircraft rather than prototypes. 





J-10 Fighter Launches Rocket Bombardment

One theory for the new aircraft's purpose is that the expanded spine houses fuel for a smoke generator pod, allowing it to operate in support of older J-10s under the 72nd Air Brigade which also use AL-31FN engines. Another is that the aircraft may not be intended for Chinese service at all, but rather for an export client similarly to how American F-16Ds were modified with expanded spines for a number of foreign operators. Pakistan is the only confirmed export client for the J-10, having received its first fighters in March, although other clients most notably Iran have been speculated. Whether for export or domestic use, the package could carry new features such as an electronic warfare countermeasures jammer. The possibility of a fuel tank has also been speculated, although the relatively small size of the spine means it is unlikely to be well suited to this. The possibility that the spine as an export feature, if successful, could be implemented on future J-10s built for Chinese service, also cannot be ruled out. The spine may also be part of an upgrade package currently being tested to upgrade older J-10A and possibly J-10B variants to partly bridge the very significant performance gap with the new J-10C.

Source: https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/new-j10-enlarged-spine-what

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## LKJ86

Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @白龙_龙腾四海 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-08/26/content_10180689.htm

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## LKJ86

Via @超级大喵酱和嘤酱 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @星辰HE大海 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

J-10AH




Via @东部战区 from Weibo

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> J-10AH
> View attachment 875553
> 
> Via @东部战区 from Weibo



Finally in low visibility


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## LKJ86

Via @喵喵的小汪汪呀 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-09/06/content_10183047.htm

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## LKJ86

Via @中国军号 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @空军在线 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via @中国军号 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/tp/2022-08/11/content_10177466.htm

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-09/19/content_10185731.htm

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## Bilal.

@Deino

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## Deino

Bilal. said:


> @Deino
> 
> View attachment 880879




Clearly a faked image! ... but anyway thanks

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## Bilal.

Deino said:


> Clearly a faked image! ... but anyway thanks


Thanks for verifying.

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-09/23/content_10186651.htm

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## LKJ86

Via @南部空军 from Weixin

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/tp/2022-10/03/content_10188054.htm

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## MajesticPug

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 884350
> 
> Via http://www.81.cn/tp/2022-10/03/content_10188054.htm



What are the missiles under the wings? PL15 and PL10?

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## siegecrossbow

MajesticPug said:


> What are the missiles under the wings? PL15 and PL10?



Top or bottom image? Bottom ones are clearly PL-12/PL-8.

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## LKJ86



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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/bz/2022-10/13/content_10191678.htm

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

Here we go, this image finally seems to confirm that the J-10C variant featuring the spine has indeed been developed for the PLAAF August 1st Aerobatic Demonstration Team - most likely designated J-10CY (?) - to replace the old J-10AY/SY.

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## LKJ86

Via 学习军团

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## LKJ86

Via @太湖啥个 from Weibo

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## LKJ86

Via @东部战区 from Weibo

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## Deino

Another J-10CY was spotted and following no. 701 from mid-July, this appears to be 703?!
(Image via by78/SDF)

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## SQ8

Deino said:


> Another J-10CY was spotted and following no. 701 from mid-July, this appears to be 703?!
> (Image via by78/SDF)
> 
> View attachment 894892


I thought these were meant for the display team - what are those spines for?

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## Deino

SQ8 said:


> I thought these were meant for the display team - what are those spines for?




In fact I don‘t know, but if I should guess, an oil tank for the smoke generator

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## Abramar

Deino said:


> In fact I don‘t know, but if I should guess, an oil tank for the smoke generator


Seems a bit odd to go through a revamp for the entire fuselage, just for a smoke generator.

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## Deino

Abramar said:


> Seems a bit odd to go through a revamp for the entire fuselage, just for a smoke generator.




Agreed, but I don‘t have a better explanation at hand …

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## Abramar

Deino said:


> Agreed, but I don‘t have a better explanation at hand …


Could be a bit of a stretch, but do you think it's possible, that the PLAAF is giving their airshow pilots the new jet, because they want more input on how it handles, compared to the previous design?

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## SQ8

Deino said:


> In fact I don‘t know, but if I should guess, an oil tank for the smoke generator


They could stick that below the fuselage as it is for the standard jets - it really seems a “much ado about nothing” situation

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## LKJ86

Via @南部空军 from Weixin and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo

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## Ali_Baba

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 895494
> 
> Via @南部空军 from Weixin and @沉默的山羊 from Weibo



All round visibility is excellent - with only minor obstruction from the Canards!!

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## LKJ86

【猛龙出击龙腾神州——歼-10战机】








猛龙出击龙腾神州——歼-10战机_哔哩哔哩_bilibili


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www.bilibili.com

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-11/20/content_10200374.htm

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Deino said:


> Another J-10CY was spotted and following no. 701 from mid-July, this appears to be 703?!
> (Image via by78/SDF)
> 
> View attachment 894892


I wonder if it's testing in anticipation of a twin-seat variant of the J-10C. Thus far, we've only seen these spines on twin-seat J-10s and JF-17s.

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## LKJ86

Via @空军在线 from Weibo


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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/kj/2022-11/23/content_10200906.htm

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## LKJ86



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## Deino

LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 901662




Well, may he rest in peace! he died today at the age of 96.

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## Deino

And just like the Su-30MK2, the J-10AH and J-10ASH from the PLAN's 4th Naval Air Brigade follow suit with the introduction of the unit's emblem and low visibility markings.

(Image via @军I名 from Weibo)

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## johncliu88

Mr. Jiang RIP. He strongly stood and supported J-10 project from day 1. We will miss him.

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## LKJ86

Via http://www.81.cn/syjdt/2022-12/08/content_10204164.htm

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## LKJ86

Via http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/view/2022-12/09/content_10204546.htm

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## LKJ86

Via @南部战区 from Weibo

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## Deino

A J-10C assigned to the 131st Air Brigade seen carrying the latest K/JDC03A FLIR/laser designation/targeting pod underneath the engine air intake. As far as I remember so far only the older K/JDC01A pod was clearly confirmed. (Image courtesy of KJZX via Huitong's CMA-Blog)

But does anyone have the full-sized image!??


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## LKJ86

Via @空军在线 from Weibo

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## Deino

Again a J-10ASH (J-10SH ?) assigned to the PLAAF Naval Aviation's 4th Naval Air Brigade spotting the latest low-visibility markings and the unit's tail art.

(Image via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo)

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