# Should we make a Petition to change the Devanagari script of Bangla!?



## The Snow Queen

Should the people of Bangladesh really do away with Devanagari script of Bangla and go for Arabic/Persian script? To Islamise our Language and bring back our real roots of East Bengal? The way our forefathers used to write and maybe talk?

I have an idea that our first initiative should be to make a Petition. And perhaps, it is a small step to a big change! We want your opinions of all the people here, and then decide if we will make this Petition.

By the way, I myself cannot make this petition because I am scared to go for this all by myself and I don't know much about the History as some of you here knows... We need someone who is wise, intelligent and knowledgeable to make this Petition for us and can add it to the description of the Petition, which will be able to convince most people to sign.

I think Change.org and GoPetition are a good places to start.

Change.org - The world's platform for change

Petition Templates, Samples & Examples | GoPetition

@kalu_miah @MBI Munshi @aazidane @khair_ctg @Saiful Islam @Zahur Ahmed Chowdhury @kobiraaz

I probably have noticed some you guys here being huge supporters of this movement. Should we first start with a Petition?

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## Azizam

You should really get away with this inferiority complex and start working on developing country.

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## ranjeet

how would changing the script would make a difference to average person's life? If there are some benefits of doing it then go ahead an change it.


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## Indischer

This has my full support. Joi Al-Bangistan!

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## jaunty

Bengali has Devanagari script?

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## Mythal

The Snow Queen said:


> Should the people of Bangladesh really do away with Devanagiri script of Bangla and go for Arabic/Persian script? To Islamise our Language and* bring back our real roots* of East Bengal? The way our original forefathers used to write and maybe talk?
> 
> I have an idea that our first initiative should be to make a Petition. And perhaps, it is a small step to a big change! We want your opinions of all the people here, and then decide if we will make this Petition.
> 
> By the way, I myself cannot make this petition because I am scared to go for this all by myself and I don't know much about the History as some of you here knows... We need someone who is wise, intelligent and knowledgeable to make this Petition for us and can add it to the description of the Petition, which will be able to convince most people to sign.
> 
> I think Change.org and GoPetition are a good places to start.
> 
> Change.org - The world's platform for change
> 
> Petition Templates, Samples & Examples | GoPetition
> 
> @kalu_miah @MBI Munshi @aazidane @khair_ctg @Saiful Islam @Zahur Ahmed Chowdhury @kobiraaz
> 
> I probably have noticed some you guys here being huge supporters of this movement. Should we first start with a Petition?



People of Bangladesh gave their life to preserve their language, the world language day is celebrated to respect the same and here is this person who by their own admission do not know about the history requesting to change the script of the language, which BTW is not even Devanagiri.
Bengali is written in Bengali Script and evolved from the same script that Devanagiri evolved from.

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## Anubis

A better idea would be for you to just migrate to a country where people use those scripts....and if you don't have the money we have plenty of camps in Dhaka where people who use those scripts live....make yourself comfortable and go live there and pray to a god of your preference so that magical fairies from heaven come down to change my script.....do not waste cyberspace with your horse shit....you give my people a bad name!



jaunty said:


> Bengali has Devanagari script?


Madrasah education.....I'm quite surprised they actually know the name of a script other than farsi and arabic!

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## kaykay

Well then why only change script? Start speaking Arabic/Persian too.
PS: No offense to other members.

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## The Snow Queen

mithyaa said:


> People of Bangladesh gave their life to preserve their language, the world language day is celebrated to respect the same and here is this person who by their own admission do not know about the history requesting to change the script of the language, which BTW is not even Devanagiri.
> Bengali is written in Bengali Script and evolved from the same script that Devanagiri evolved from.





Anubis said:


> A better idea would be for you to just migrate to a country where people use those scripts....and if you don't have the money we have plenty of camps in Dhaka where people who use those scripts live....make yourself comfortable and go live there and pray to a god of your preference so that magical fairies from heaven come down to change my script.....do not waste cyberspace with your horse shit....you give my people a bad name!



We are talking about changing the script not the language. Bangla used to be written in Persian because that's how it was written and used to be back in the day until 19th century, the British Sanskritised the script with the help of Hindu Brahmins so they could target the Muslims. 

We should adopt the past script again in order to Islamize the language and help our people to read and write Quran better.

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## Luffy 500

U can't simply change a script like that. I don't think we need to go for changing script though i appreciate your intention behind it. What's more important and effective than changing script IMHO is introducing arabic as a compulsory 2nd language like english. Our people can read the Quran but can't understand it without tafsir. Imagine if the whole pop. can speak arabic like bengali. It will naturally bring the society closer to islam and the bengali language will also get enriched further. In a few generations Bangladeshi bengali will be uniquely bangladeshi. SO introducing compulsory arabic is the way to go for any muslim society that wants to better it self as per the divine guidance of Allah (swt).

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## Mythal

The Snow Queen said:


> We are talking about changing the script not the language. Bangla used to be written in Persian because that's how it was written and used to be back in the day until 19th century, the British Sanskritised the script with the help of Hindu Brahmins so they could target the Muslims.
> 
> We should adopt the past script again in order to Islamize the language and help our people to read and write Quran better.



Lady, with all due respect, do not say this in front of any old person in your country otherwise you may end up getting bitch-slapped (which would be really funny for me).
Ancient Bengali scripts, coins and pieces or arts exist and you can just go to google and view them. Do not say stupid things like Bangla was written in Persian.

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## Anubis

The Snow Queen said:


> We are talking about changing the script not the language. Bangla used to be written in Persian because that's how it was written and used to be back in the day until 19th century, the British Sanskritised the script with the help of Hindu Brahmins so they could target the Muslims.
> 
> We should adopt the past script again in order to Islamize the language and help our people to read and write Quran better.


Erm....no.....Bangla script(Bangla Lipi) was specifically developed(spontaneous development through ages of usage by local people) to write Bangla.....You cannot Sanskritize a script...since Sanskrit itself never had a script.....it died well before people here learnt to write....Area 51 hosting aliens is more plausible than the British conspiracy theory!Could you please show me a sample historical text of BANGLA written in Persian(Arabic....persians do not use their own script either...ironic) script??NOPE...you know why??Because when people here in Bengal were using persian script during the Mughal era...they were actually writing Persian(the language of the court of the empire)....not Bangla!

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## DRaisinHerald

Oh c'mon, the Arabic script is the most beautiful there is! Even Indians can't deny that 

Hey, I actually I like the Hebrew script as well for some reason, especially the one found in their Torah scrolls.

So what calligraphic style will it be? Naskh or Nastaliq?

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## Anubis

If we are going by beauty...I suggest Hieroglyphs be introduced as our script....absolutely stunning....

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## Saiful Islam

The Snow Queen said:


> Should the people of Bangladesh really do away with Devanagari script of Bangla and go for Arabic/Persian script? To Islamise our Language and bring back our real roots of East Bengal? The way our forefathers used to write and maybe talk?
> 
> I have an idea that our first initiative should be to make a Petition. And perhaps, it is a small step to a big change! We want your opinions of all the people here, and then decide if we will make this Petition.
> 
> By the way, I myself cannot make this petition because I am scared to go for this all by myself and I don't know much about the History as some of you here knows... We need someone who is wise, intelligent and knowledgeable to make this Petition for us and can add it to the description of the Petition, which will be able to convince most people to sign.
> 
> I think Change.org and GoPetition are a good places to start.
> 
> Change.org - The world's platform for change
> 
> Petition Templates, Samples & Examples | GoPetition
> 
> @kalu_miah @MBI Munshi @aazidane @khair_ctg @Saiful Islam @Zahur Ahmed Chowdhury @kobiraaz
> 
> I probably have noticed some you guys here being huge supporters of this movement. Should we first start with a Petition?





Changing the script isn't something you can do so quick. Let's not focus on our language but the problems that exist in our country. We are still the most corrupt country in the region, the political situation is still very delicate and 2013 wasn't a good year for us, so many deaths went undocumented, this tells us serious change needs to happen and if we want the country to prosper we need leaders who will do good for the country and their intention is that for the country and only the country! 

Madaris in Bangladesh are producing top Mawlana and Hafiz who are going the Gulf. We are known for being Hafiz in the Gulf. A Bangladesh last year won the global Qur'an recitation last year, infact many BD's have came second or was present in that competition.

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## kalu_miah

The Snow Queen said:


> Should the people of Bangladesh really do away with Devanagari script of Bangla and go for Arabic/Persian script? To Islamise our Language and bring back our real roots of East Bengal? The way our forefathers used to write and maybe talk?
> 
> I have an idea that our first initiative should be to make a Petition. And perhaps, it is a small step to a big change! We want your opinions of all the people here, and then decide if we will make this Petition.
> 
> By the way, I myself cannot make this petition because I am scared to go for this all by myself and I don't know much about the History as some of you here knows... We need someone who is wise, intelligent and knowledgeable to make this Petition for us and can add it to the description of the Petition, which will be able to convince most people to sign.
> 
> I think Change.org and GoPetition are a good places to start.
> 
> Change.org - The world's platform for change
> 
> Petition Templates, Samples & Examples | GoPetition
> 
> @kalu_miah @MBI Munshi @aazidane @khair_ctg @Saiful Islam @Zahur Ahmed Chowdhury @kobiraaz
> 
> I probably have noticed some you guys here being huge supporters of this movement. Should we first start with a Petition?



Welcome to the forum.

These are just ideas to think about and debate. I personally believe it is not yet the time to make a petition for such a change. But I appreciate your thought.

As we discussed in other threads, we still do not know exactly how our forefathers actually talked and used Bangla language before the Sanskritization that happened at Fort William college, I think we need to do more research to find out. Bangla Academy is doing similar research and more effort can be placed there and in the Bangla department of large universities, that should be worthwhile.

In general we need to focus more on the period of Muslim rule in Bengal from 1204-1757 to find our cultural roots and make the history from that period part of our early education. Here is an online history book you may find interesting:
The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204–1760

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## Sliver

kalu_miah said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> 
> 
> *In general we need to focus more on the period of Muslim rule in Bengal from 1204-1757 to find our cultural roots *and make the history from that period part of our early education. Here is an online history book you may find interesting:




why not concentrate on all history and get your roots? why only Islamic rule? Your cultural roots are quite different from Arabs and Persians because you have a different history. There is a reason your language, culture, traditions evolved differently than others - you need to figure out why it has changed and why is it that such an evolution was required. before you make a delibrate attempt to "go back". You need to know why your kind "went forward" in this route.

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## jaunty

Sliver said:


> why not concentrate on all history and get your roots? why only Islamic rule? Your cultural roots are quite different from Arabs and Persians because you have a different history.



Culturally enslaved and conquered people lack independent thinking. The history starts from their master's arrival.

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## khair_ctg

The Snow Queen said:


> Should the people of Bangladesh really do away with Devanagari script of Bangla and go for Arabic/Persian script? To Islamise our Language and bring back our real roots of East Bengal? The way our forefathers used to write and maybe talk?
> 
> I have an idea that our first initiative should be to make a Petition. And perhaps, it is a small step to a big change! We want your opinions of all the people here, and then decide if we will make this Petition.
> 
> By the way, I myself cannot make this petition because I am scared to go for this all by myself and I don't know much about the History as some of you here knows... We need someone who is wise, intelligent and knowledgeable to make this Petition for us and can add it to the description of the Petition, which will be able to convince most people to sign.
> 
> I think Change.org and GoPetition are a good places to start.
> 
> Change.org - The world's platform for change
> 
> Petition Templates, Samples & Examples | GoPetition
> 
> @kalu_miah @MBI Munshi @aazidane @khair_ctg @Saiful Islam @Zahur Ahmed Chowdhury @kobiraaz
> 
> I probably have noticed some you guys here being huge supporters of this movement. Should we first start with a Petition?


writing bangla in the arabic script (including the extra persian alphabets) should be encouraged. it definitely had use historically and still some people maybe using this nastaliq script for bangla at present. it will only help enrich bangla and make it more inclusive of the history of the Muslims of Bengal. the Bengal has a rich history in Urdu and Farsi, and one cannot imagine the loss if such heritage is neglected. whether to have the Bangla Nastaliq script get official stamp from the government is another matter and may take time. @Md Akmal no Bangla in Nastaliq script?

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## khair_ctg

Sliver said:


> why not concentrate on all history and get your roots? why only Islamic rule? Your cultural roots are quite different from Arabs and Persians because you have a different history. There is a reason your language, culture, traditions evolved differently than others - you need to figure out why it has changed and why is it that such an evolution was required. before you make a delibrate attempt to "go back". You need to know why your kind "went forward" in this route.


Bengali in Nastaliq script is not the same as say Arabic in some Gulf country. even the Farsi of Bengal and the subcontinent used before colonization had differences with the Farsi of contemporary Iran. 

what you essentially want to do is ignore Islamic history of the subcontinent right? Muslims of the subcontinent are a mixture of indigenous and settler in people and culture. your mindset is to de-Islamize the Muslims by deleting all the contributions the Muslims have made in the history of the subcontinent and restrict them to the Dharmic elements what were untouched and unchanged by Muslim civilization



jaunty said:


> Culturally enslaved and conquered people lack independent thinking. The history starts from their master's arrival.


so your history ENDS from your masters' arrival? masters = us

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## Ajatashatru

The Snow Queen said:


> We are talking about changing the script not the language. Bangla used to be written in Persian because that's how it was written and used to be back in the day until 19th century, the British Sanskritised the script with the help of Hindu Brahmins so they could target the Muslims.
> 
> We should adopt the past script again in order to Islamize the language and help our people to read and write Quran better.


Bengali language and its root languages have been written in Brahmi derived scripts since time immemorial. Persian script only came with Muslim invaders. So those who are saying that Bengali was "originally" written in Persian/Arabic script need to read some history.

And if the intention is to Islamize BD then a lot else will need to completely change, including name of the country and the language. Most of the places' (including Dhaka's) and rivers' names will also have to be changed. Cultural norms and habits will also need to be changed. Dressing will have to be changed.

BTW Bengali is not written in Devanagari script. You are a false flagger, aren't you? I mean who doesn't know the script of his mother tongue?

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## baajey

make a petition to kick out bangla and introduce arabic. 
thats how u shall get ur 72 8itches.

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## INDIC

The Snow Queen said:


> Should the people of Bangladesh really do away with Devanagari script of Bangla and go for Arabic/Persian script?



I didn't know that script of Bengali language is know as Devanagari script.  

Devanagari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bengali alphabet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



khair_ctg said:


> writing bangla in the arabic script (including the extra persian alphabets) should be encouraged. it definitely had use historically and still some people maybe using this nastaliq script for bangla at present. it will only help enrich bangla and make it more inclusive of the history of the Muslims of Bengal. the Bengal has a rich history in Urdu and Farsi, and one cannot imagine the loss if such heritage is neglected. whether to have the Bangla Nastaliq script get official stamp from the government is another matter and may take time. @Md Akmal no Bangla in Nastaliq script?



Perhaps you are forgetting this. Your whole country will revolt if any attempt to change the script is made.

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## The Snow Queen

INDIC said:


> Perhaps you are forgetting this. Your whole country will revolt if any attempt to change the script is made.



I don't think so. Most people do not like Bangla, I mean no one really cares. Except for the Bangla nationalists.



DRaisinHerald said:


> So what calligraphic style will it be? Naskh or Nastaliq?


 
Nastaliq, I think!


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## Contrarian

Ajatashatru said:


> Bengali language and its root languages have been written in Brahmi derived scripts since time immemorial. Persian script only came with Muslim invaders. So those who are saying that Bengali was "originally" written in Persian/Arabic script need to read some history.
> 
> And if the intention is to Islamize BD then a lot else will need to completely change, including name of the country and the language. Most of the places' (including Dhaka's) and rivers' names will also have to be changed. Cultural norms and habits will also need to be changed. Dressing will have to be changed.
> 
> BTW Bengali is not written in Devanagari script. You are a false flagger, aren't you? I mean who doesn't know the script of his mother tongue?


Quoted to emphasize!

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## Roybot

Is @The Snow Queen , IamBengali's alter ego?

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## jaunty

khair_ctg said:


> so your history ENDS from your masters' arrival? masters = us



Masters and you? Bitch please!! You are culturally conquered people. Go and check how your masters from desert treat you, even today.

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## INDIC

The Snow Queen said:


> I don't think so. Most people do not like Bangla, I mean no one really cares. Except for the Bangla nationalists.



Just claims, there is hardly any sentiment among Bangladeshi to disown Bengali script except the Jamat supporters. 



jaunty said:


> Masters and you? Bitch please!! You are culturally conquered people. Go and check how your masters from desert treat you, even today.



So @khair_ctg is saying we were conquered by fish-bhaat eating people.


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## jaunty

INDIC said:


> Just claims, there is hardly any sentiment among Bangladeshi to disown Bengali script except the Jamat supporters.



The only place these jamatis can propose such retarded ideas is the internet. They would be beaten black and blue if they dare suggest something like that in real life. 



INDIC said:


> J
> 
> So @khair_ctg is saying we were conquered by fish-bhaat eating people.



Probably another wannabe Arab descendant!

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## Azizam

@INDIC That Persian dude's post should be copy pasted in threads like these to help these people land on earth from the lala land.

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## kalu_miah

@The Snow Queen please do not be disheartened by comments from these posters. What internet provides is a glimpse into the inner workings of peoples mind, their biases and prejudices, likes and dislikes. I am glad that young people like you have joined this forum. You should encourage others to join as well. Just like school, this forum provides a learning experience that you do not get in school. You can get to know how others view us, specially those who holds little respect for us and in time you will learn to ignore them and their views. In 1947 our forefathers decided to go with break off from India to get away from such biased people. 

Most importantly young generation of Bangladeshi's need to be informed so ask others to join and what all of you learn from here, explain that to friends, family and people you know.

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## The Snow Queen

INDIC said:


> Just claims, there is hardly any sentiment among Bangladeshi to disown Bengali script except the Jamat supporters.



Do you think all the Bangladeshis are idiots? Most of us are Muslims first and foremost and for us Muslims, religion comes first and then Nationality because we believe in Almighty Allah! Christian or a Hindu will never understand it! NEVER! Most of us would love to bring the Nastaliq script back because seriously it's going to help us with our religion and our identity as Muslims because that is our first priority! Like I said, it's true most Bangladeshis don't really give a damn about Bangla script. Infact everyone hates studying it and you can see the proof in schools.



INDIC said:


> So @khair_ctg is saying we were conquered by fish-bhaat eating people.



We ain't fish bhaat eating people. That's why we want to change the script and our way of culture so people can distinguish us between West Bengalis vegetarian fish-bhaat eating people with their ganga panga pooja. We are omnivorous people who eat Chicken, goat etc. And cow which you people call it "Maa" LMAO
You should come to Bangladesh some day during Eid al Azha and see how we slaughter your cows and it's literally on the streets! And we call it Qurbaani Eid!! The poor and the Fakirs looooove Qurbaani Eid, because they get free meat! 



jaunty said:


> The only place these jamatis can propose such retarded ideas is the internet. They would be beaten black and blue if they dare suggest something like that in real life.



What's the deal with labelling Muslim Bangladeshis as Jamaati!? You think we are Hindus like West Bengalis so if I say anything Islamic you get to automatically call us Jamaatis? We are Muslims but not Jamaatis! That's why we want a separate script so people don't associate us and think we and Hindu West Bengalis are the same because we are not.

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## The Snow Queen

kalu_miah said:


> @The Snow Queen please do not be disheartened by comments from these posters. What internet provides is a glimpse into the inner workings of peoples mind, their biases and prejudices, likes and dislikes. I am glad that young people like you have joined this forum. You should encourage others to join as well. Just like school, this forum provides a learning experience that you do not get in school. You can get to know how others view us, specially those who holds little respect for us and in time you will learn to ignore them and their views. In 1947 our forefathers decided to go with break off from India to get away from such biased people.



Thanks! These mindless idiots don't really offend me. And I totally get what you mean! Okay, I'll let people I know about this forum. 



kalu_miah said:


> Most importantly young generation of Bangladeshi's need to be informed so ask others to join and what all of you learn from here, explain that to friends, family and people you know.



I have already discussed it with my friends and cousins and they think changing the script is an excellent idea! I was so glad when I heard their opinions afterwards about this issue. And some said maybe it's too late for that... I said it's okay, have some hope and I know it's really, really long way ahead for something like this to finally come happen...

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## jaunty

The Snow Queen said:


> What's the deal with labelling Muslim Bangladeshis as Jamaati!? You think we are Hindus like West Bengalis so if I say anything Islamic you get to automatically call us Jamaatis? We are Muslims but not Jamaatis! That's why we want a separate script so people don't associate us and think we and Hindu West Bengalis are the same because we are not.



First of all, someone who says that the Bengali script is Devanagari can't be taken seriously. There are many jamaat supporters on this forum, we call them jamaatis. If you are not one of them then good for you. And no, I don't think you are like Hindus; you are most welcome to change the script, in fact I voted yes.

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## Mythal

The Snow Queen said:


> *Like I said, it's true most Bangladeshis don't really give a damn about Bangla script. Infact everyone hates studying it and you can see the proof in schools.*


Oh the burger generation and their world views. Did you go to a English medium school or a Bangla medium? If English medium (which I am 90% sure is the case), how many Bangla medium schooled people do you know?

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## The Snow Queen

mithyaa said:


> Oh the burger generation and their world views. Did you go to a English medium school or a Bangla medium? If English medium (which I am 90% sure is the case), how many Bangla medium schooled people do you know?



You are right I am from English medium school... However, I do know some people from Bangla medium school. Three of them are my cousins and two which are facebook friends with whom I have talked with and I told them about this and they did agree with me!!

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## illusion8

I don't get it? Bangla is a language with it's own script, now why would anyone think of changing that? it's like someone writing English in their local language which doesn't make any sense.

If the only purpose of it is to get closer to the arabs or the persians- then why not learn their language and use their script - why eff up a beautiful language?

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## Anubis

mithyaa said:


> Oh the burger generation and their world views. Did you go to a English medium school or a Bangla medium? If English medium (which I am 90% sure is the case), how many Bangla medium schooled people do you know?


The guy knows 5 people from the national curriculum....and he came to his conclusion about 15 crore people from those 5 people....HE MUST BE RIGHT!

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## jha

Voted Yes... 

And Bangla in Devnagari Script..?  These neo-Jamaatis are awesome.. Way stupider and hilarious...

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## takeiteasy

The Snow Queen said:


> Most of us are *Muslims first* and foremost and for us Muslims, religion comes first and then Nationality because we believe in Almighty Allah! Christian or a Hindu will never understand it! NEVER! Most of us would love to bring the Nastaliq script back because seriously it's going to help us with our religion and our identity as Muslims because that is our first priority! Like I said, it's true most Bangladeshis don't really give a damn about Bangla script. Infact everyone hates studying it and you can see the proof in schools


This can be dangerous. Why not be Muslim and reject Arabic influences. is that not possible? look where Arabs live where you live? Instead of blind belief, why not start looking for sources which criticize your religion(s) for a balanced view on religion?


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## the just

takeiteasy said:


> This can be dangerous. Why not be Muslim and reject Arabic influences. is that not possible? look where Arabs live where you live? Instead of blind belief, why not start looking for sources which criticize your religion(s) for a balanced view on religion?


Sorry,its all or nothing.its been said hundreds of times in this forum.leave religion alone.in vain it seems.
There is no balance view in Islam.either you believe, or you don't.
Just because someone is born to Muslim parents/community/country he/she is not a Muslim.its a practicing religion with all its aspects.
Because religion comes first does not means we should forget our history. Then what will be the difference between a Muslim and a Jew?

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## scholseys

These petitions are for hippies, i'll take the original poster seriously if shes hot. I only take beautiful women seriously.


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## Sliver

khair_ctg said:


> Bengali in Nastaliq script is not the same as say Arabic in some Gulf country. even the Farsi of Bengal and the subcontinent used before colonization had differences with the Farsi of contemporary Iran.
> 
> *what you essentially want to do is ignore Islamic history of the subcontinent right?* Muslims of the subcontinent are a mixture of indigenous and settler in people and culture. your mindset is to de-Islamize the Muslims by deleting all the contributions the Muslims have made in the history of the subcontinent and restrict them to the Dharmic elements what were untouched and unchanged by Muslim civilization
> 
> 
> so your history ENDS from your masters' arrival? masters = us



no, what i essentially want the people to do is embrace non islamic history as well. After all, it is equally your history as the islamic history is. 

What you are doing is ONLY and CATEGORICALLY focussing on islamic history by disowning and not taking into consideration the other history. Dont you think this is "intolerance" to your own kind? 

You can learn from history, but you need to take it unbiased. you have shown bias to your history - you are bound to repeat mistakes.

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## dray

The Snow Queen said:


> Should the people of Bangladesh really do away with Devanagari script of Bangla and go for Arabic/Persian script? To Islamise our Language and bring back our real roots of East Bengal? The way our forefathers used to write and maybe talk?
> 
> I have an idea that our first initiative should be to make a Petition. And perhaps, it is a small step to a big change! We want your opinions of all the people here, and then decide if we will make this Petition.
> 
> By the way, I myself cannot make this petition because I am scared to go for this all by myself and I don't know much about the History as some of you here knows... We need someone who is wise, intelligent and knowledgeable to make this Petition for us and can add it to the description of the Petition, which will be able to convince most people to sign.
> 
> I think Change.org and GoPetition are a good places to start.
> 
> Change.org - The world's platform for change
> 
> Petition Templates, Samples & Examples | GoPetition
> 
> @kalu_miah @MBI Munshi @aazidane @khair_ctg @Saiful Islam @Zahur Ahmed Chowdhury @kobiraaz
> 
> I probably have noticed some you guys here being huge supporters of this movement. Should we first start with a Petition?




That's honestly an excellent idea, but a half-hearted attempt to rectify the anomaly, why do you want to change only the script to Arabic? Arabic is the real language of Muslims and should not only be the primary language, but the ONE & ONLY language of the Islamic Republic of Bangladesh. And along with this Hindu Brahmanical Bengali language, make sure to get rid of all the traces of Hindu Brahmanical Bengali literature and its stalwarts like that malaun Islamophobe Tagore. Don't set your aspirations low, the cultural cleansing should be elaborate & complete in all respect. You cannot fill up a already full glass, can you? All aspects of Bengaliness including its culture, language, literature, and those stupid stuffs like Poila Boishakh and Bhasha Dibas etc. should be promptly thrown into the Bay of Bengal, then only you can fill the vacuum with proper Islamic & Arabic culture, language, & literature.

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## Anubis

aazidane said:


> These petitions are for hippies, i'll take the original poster seriously if shes hot. I only take beautiful women seriously.


I highly doubt OP is a girl....

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## SHAMK9

Why the f**k would you want anything to do with arabs/persians?

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## the just

Beats me.Bangla language today is a good Khichri of multiple foreign language. From Turkey, English, Arab you name a language, we have at least 10 words from different languages each.if we change the script what will happen to these words?will we change them like bangla?to what?
If we don't have SHOROBORNO and BANJONBORNO ,15 cor people will need to change their name also


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## Mythal

@The Snow Queen Just out of curiosity do you know how to write in Persian script? If you don't I am sure it would be great for your petition if you lead by example and start to learn yourself and experience how the entire Bangladeshi population will feel when they are made to learn to write in a new language.

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## khair_ctg

Sliver said:


> no, *what i essentially want the people to do is embrace non islamic history as well*. After all, it is equally your history as the islamic history is.
> 
> What you are doing is ONLY and CATEGORICALLY focussing on islamic history by disowning and not taking into consideration the other history. Dont you think this is "intolerance" to your own kind?
> 
> You can learn from history, but you need to take it unbiased. you have shown bias to your history - you are bound to repeat mistakes.


the so-called Muslim history of the subcontinent does contain non-Muslim history. as i said, the subcontinent's Muslim community was formed by people and culture that settled from outside and also those that were native at that point. unless Muslims *completely* change their language to Arabic (which they can rightfully do), Bengali in Nastaliq script is still very inclusive of cultures that are both Muslim and non-Muslim in the subcontinent. if you had any knowledge of the Bengal Muslims or you had openness to South Asia's Muslim civilization, you would have encouraged more Bengali written in Nastaliq script


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## jaunty

Anubis said:


> I highly doubt OP is a girl....



Female, 17 no way lol 



SHAMK9 said:


> Why the f**k would you want anything to do with arabs/persians?



Because 55% Bangladeshis are of foreign origin (Arab, Turk, Persian, Afghan and other central Asians) and 15% of them are mixed. Only 30% are converted, that too from Buddhism. 

Proof: Bengali Nationalism a Threat to Bangladesh's National Security | Page 5

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## khair_ctg

the just said:


> Beats me.Bangla language today is a good Khichri of multiple foreign language. From Turkey, English, Arab you name a language, we have at least 10 words from different languages each.if we change the script what will happen to these words?will we change them like bangla?to what?
> If we don't have SHOROBORNO and BANJONBORNO ,15 cor people will need to change their name also


Bengali language was supposed to be a khichri language, and it would be if the official Bengali of today was not developed by Hindu pundits. this is a language of the Hindu pundits you are talking about. what happened to the Farsi that was practiced for so long in these lands, or the Urdu which has been constantly undermined by Sanskrit-loving Hindu zamindars and their remnants in East Pakistan post-1947? i know this Sanskrit-Bangla as you and most people do who went to school in BD. is this the language that was practised by Muslims before colonization? No. would the language look and sound like this if Muslims' had a hand in developing this language as their own? why was the Musalman Bangla even considered a dialect of Urdu by some, rather than a dialect of Bangla? who had the authority to define what can be called "Bangla", the Hindus or the Muslims? i have tried to post material and discuss these a number of times here. have you given these a thought?



takeiteasy said:


> This can be dangerous. *Why not be Muslim and reject Arabic influences*. is that not possible? look where Arabs live where you live? Instead of blind belief, why not start looking for sources which criticize your religion(s) for a balanced view on religion?


if you want to say that line to a W. European convert Muslim, even they will take it as offensive. what gives you this pass to use such offensive lines to Bangladeshis who were part of great Muslim empires influenced by people and culture from Arab and Farsi worlds? you do realize you are telling people to forgo their heritage and adopt a Hinduized and Dharmicized outlook to submit to the non-Muslims of India.

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## khair_ctg

SHAMK9 said:


> Why the f**k would you want anything to do with arabs/persians?


maybe no one "wants anything to do with arabs/persians". it is about wanting something to do with native Muslim Bengal and its history. that you are writing an indo-aryan language in Nastaliq does not mean "you want anything to do with arabs/persians"

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## khair_ctg

jaunty said:


> Masters and you? Bitch please!! You are culturally conquered people. Go and check how your masters from desert treat you, even today.


but we are supposed to be the culturally conquerING people right. by the way some of the coolest people i met in the States are from the "deserts". i traveled through the the Arab world as well.


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## Thirdfront

How can bangla script can be changed by few (even majority of) bangladeshis? It will be still same in India and rest of the world....


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## kalu_miah

Thirdfront said:


> How can bangla script can be changed by few (even majority of) bangladeshis? It will be still same in India and rest of the world....



Just like Hindi uses Devnagari and Urdu uses Nastaliq, we will keep the name Bangla, you can take some other name like Hind-Bangla or Sanskrit-Bangla:

Hindi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The dialect upon which Standard Hindi is based is _Khariboli_, the vernacular of Delhi and the surrounding western Uttar Pradesh and southern Uttarakhand region. This dialect acquired linguistic prestige in the Mughal Empire (17th century) and became known as _Urdu_, "the language of the court". In the late 19th century, the movement standardising a written language from Khariboli, for the Indian masses in North India, started to standardise Hindi as a separate language from Urdu, which was learnt by the elite. In 1881 Bihar accepted Hindi as its sole official language, replacing Urdu, and thus became the first state of India to adopt Hindi.

After independence, the government of India instituted the following conventions:

standardisation of grammar: In 1954, the Government of India set up a committee to prepare a grammar of Hindi; The committee's report was released in 1958 as "A Basic Grammar of Modern Hindi"
standardisation of the orthography, using the Devanagari script, by the Central Hindi Directorate of the Ministry of Education and Culture to bring about uniformity in writing, to improve the shape of some Devanagari characters, and introducing diacritics to express sounds from other languages.
The Constituent Assembly adopted Hindi as the Official Language of the Union on 14 September 1949. Hence, it is celebrated as Hindi Day.

*Comparison with Modern Standard Urdu*
See also: Hindi–Urdu controversy, Hindustani phonology, and Hindustani grammar
Linguistically, Hindi and Urdu are the same language. Hindi is written in the Devanagari script and uses more Sanskrit words, whereas Urdu is written in the Persian script (Nastaliq) and uses more Persian words."

Nastaʿlīq script - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Thirdfront

kalu_miah said:


> Just like Hindi uses Devnagari and Urdu uses Nastaliq, we will keep the name Bangla, you can take some other name like Hind-Bangla or Sanskrit-Bangla:
> 
> Hindi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> "The dialect upon which Standard Hindi is based is _Khariboli_, the vernacular of Delhi and the surrounding western Uttar Pradesh and southern Uttarakhand region. This dialect acquired linguistic prestige in the Mughal Empire (17th century) and became known as _Urdu_, "the language of the court". In the late 19th century, the movement standardising a written language from Khariboli, for the Indian masses in North India, started to standardise Hindi as a separate language from Urdu, which was learnt by the elite. In 1881 Bihar accepted Hindi as its sole official language, replacing Urdu, and thus became the first state of India to adopt Hindi.
> 
> After independence, the government of India instituted the following conventions:
> 
> standardisation of grammar: In 1954, the Government of India set up a committee to prepare a grammar of Hindi; The committee's report was released in 1958 as "A Basic Grammar of Modern Hindi"
> standardisation of the orthography, using the Devanagari script, by the Central Hindi Directorate of the Ministry of Education and Culture to bring about uniformity in writing, to improve the shape of some Devanagari characters, and introducing diacritics to express sounds from other languages.
> The Constituent Assembly adopted Hindi as the Official Language of the Union on 14 September 1949. Hence, it is celebrated as Hindi Day.
> 
> *Comparison with Modern Standard Urdu*
> See also: Hindi–Urdu controversy, Hindustani phonology, and Hindustani grammar
> Linguistically, Hindi and Urdu are the same language. Hindi is written in the Devanagari script and uses more Sanskrit words, whereas Urdu is written in the Persian script (Nastaliq) and uses more Persian words."
> 
> Nastaʿlīq script - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Did you get what I said before posting this? Somebody started writing hindi/khariboli with arabic/persian script and was started to be called "urdu", not hindi. Similarly if bangla is written in other script in bd, it will be called something else, may be "burdu" or something like that as rest of the world will still use original bangla...

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## my2cents

The Snow Queen said:


> Should the people of Bangladesh really do away with Devanagiri script of Bangla and go for Arabic/Persian script? To Islamise our Language and bring back our real roots of East Bengal? The way our original forefathers used to write and maybe talk?
> 
> I probably have noticed some you guys here being huge supporters of this movement. Should we first start with a Petition?





Azizam said:


> You should really get away with this inferiority complex and start working on developing country.



I voted for the petition because how can a nation develop when they face identity crisis. If they want to make their country "Arabistan" who are we give them suggestions.

All the best for taking the initiative. You have sown the first seed. May it become the forest.


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## kalu_miah

Thirdfront said:


> Did you get what I said before posting this? Somebody started writing hindi/khariboli with arabic/persian script and was started to be called "urdu", not hindi. Similarly if bangla is written in other script in bd, it will be called something else, may be "burdu" or something like that as rest of the world will still use original bangla...



You can bet your bottom dollar that we the majority 160 million Bangla speaking people own our Allah (SWT) given right to hold the patent and copyright to call our language Bangla (regardless of what script we choose to use) and our country Bangla-desh. You can sue us if you do not like it.


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## Thirdfront

kalu_miah said:


> You can bet your bottom dollar that we the majority 160 million Bangla speaking people own our Allah (SWT) given right to hold the patent and copyright to call our language Bangla (regardless of what script we choose to use) and our country Bangla-desh. You can sue us if you do not like it.


No need to sue over burdu language.... while you'r at it, change script of english also to arabic, you can have eurdu language too

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## Mythal

kalu_miah said:


> You can bet your bottom dollar that we the majority 160 million Bangla speaking people own our Allah (SWT) given right to hold the patent and copyright to call our language Bangla (regardless of what script we choose to use) and our country Bangla-desh. You can sue us if you do not like it.


In the free and anonymous world of internet anyone can say anything, you dont need any right for that. People will laugh at you.. Think that you are a joke, but you have all the right to say whatever you want.


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## kalu_miah

mithyaa said:


> In the free and anonymous world of internet anyone can say anything, you dont need any right for that. People will laugh at you.. Think that you are a joke, but you have all the right to say whatever you want.



First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

Mahatma Gandhi


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## The Snow Queen

Luffy 500 said:


> U can't simply change a script like that. I don't think we need to go for changing script though i appreciate your intention behind it. What's more important and effective than changing script IMHO is introducing arabic as a compulsory 2nd language like english. Our people can read the Quran but can't understand it without tafsir. Imagine if the whole pop. can speak arabic like bengali. It will naturally bring the society closer to islam and the bengali language will also get enriched further. In a few generations Bangladeshi bengali will be uniquely bangladeshi. SO introducing compulsory arabic is the way to go for any muslim society that wants to better it self as per the divine guidance of Allah (swt).



You are so right, dear. I completely agree with every single thing that you just said! By the way, I plan on learning Farsi this summer! (★^O^★)



aazidane said:


> These petitions are for hippies



Why is it for hippies? What's the point if we can't take any action but only talk about it in forums... What's going on..? :O



Anubis said:


> The guy knows 5 people from the national curriculum....and he came to his conclusion about 15 crore people from those 5 people....HE MUST BE RIGHT!



Why are you calling me HIM you! You, cretin and moron!



jaunty said:


> Female, 17 no way lol



First you call me a Jamaati and now you think I am a guy! You halfwit imbecile!

@kalu_miah You are right all these freaks are simpletons with their own views of the World and their own assumptions about everyone. But I guess that's what the internet is like... Everything becomes a big joke... Anyway I am not too hang up on this change but just wanted opinions of others, and instead they all acting like it's the end of the World. And calling me names and making me seem like I am an extremist, evil and being rude and mean with me. But I don't really care, because I don't give importance to fools.



mithyaa said:


> @The Snow Queen Just out of curiosity do you know how to write in Persian script? If you don't I am sure it would be great for your petition if you lead by example and start to learn yourself and experience how the entire Bangladeshi population will feel when they are made to learn to write in a new language.



I have decided to learn Persian. But I am going to start learning it, after my A Levels this May. I can read Arabic and last year I also started learning Italian! Heeheeheee!!



jha said:


> Voted Yes...
> These neo-Jamaatis are awesome.. Way stupider and hilarious...



We are not Jamaatis and not Jamaati supporters (at least true in my case)d there is nothing hilarious here! Okay, I don't even care or know about politics because it is a huge a time waste and boring! I mean in our country it's always BNP or Awami League fighting because of what happened in 1971. Oh my goodness! It is so booooring!!! I don't like our politicians and want to get rid of them not just only me, I think everyone feels the same way. You have chance now so better choose your upcoming Prime Minister wisely in this election, I am advising you. And quit calling everyone Jamaatis it's not nice!

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## takeiteasy

khair_ctg said:


> Bangladeshis who were part of great Muslim empires influenced by people and culture from Arab and Farsi worlds?


still basically Benglis; since British ruled you, does that makes you all English? you are generally Hindu converts with Bengali/Indic culture. even if Muslims, your culture surely seems Bengali. seeking Arab/Persian/Afghan heritage both in culture and blood shows inferiority complex. Accept your culture, that's anytime better than foreign cultures that you want to believe yours.

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## sree45

The level of stupidity of some of the PDF posters never fails to surprise me.

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## The Snow Queen

takeiteasy said:


> still basically Benglis; since British ruled you, does that makes you all English? you are generally Hindu converts with Bengali/Indic culture. even if Muslims, your culture surely seems Bengali. seeking Arab/Persian/Afghan heritage both in culture and blood shows inferiority complex. Accept your culture, that's anytime better than foreign cultures that you want to believe yours.



We are Bangladeshis which I guess is also Bengali... But we are Muslims and we are Muslims first. You can ask any Muslims in the world regardless of wherever they are from! And they will say they are Muslims first and foremost. I mean don't you get it? Why is it so hard to understand..?
Not everyone are Hindu converts! Even if they are does that make them less of a Muslim? All we trying to say is that being Muslims we want to Islamise our culture and language and if we were trying to force this on West Bengalis then it will be something wrong because their faith is different. But for us it isn't, No matter if we are Bengali or not. And it has nothing to do with being Arab/Persian/Afghan or inferiority complex.

And if you think all our people look like Bangladeshi cricket team then you are wrong because they all from villages where most people are malnourished, poor and they do look different from people living in cities who are middle class and upper class. My grandfather was a Pashtun born in Pakistan and also studied there. My grandma is a Choudhury and she has Turkic/Iranian background. I mean Islam has been in East Bengal for more than 900 years so it is plausible there has been a lot of mixing. Why is it so hard to believe? And many of us do have these ancestries and what's wrong having these ancestries? If you don't want to believe, then it is you who is being jealous and insecure. And no one is forcing you to believe it since none of us even care. Don't go saying nonsense like we are Bengalis and all Hindu converts. I mean what's that supposed to have anything to do with us being Muslims? 

We are Bangladeshi and we are Muslims. The Bengali culture and culture is more fitting for Hindus not Muslims that's what we believe and the reason why some of us want to Islamise our culture and language... And we are not crazy about this change just saying what is right. If this were to become true then it will take many, many years! And we promise it's not going to effect West Bengal! By the way, I am just answering you.

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## SarthakGanguly

Anubis said:


> Erm....no.....Bangla script(Bangla Lipi) was specifically developed(spontaneous development through ages of usage by local people) to write Bangla.....You cannot Sanskritize a script...since Sanskrit itself never had a script.....it died well before people here learnt to write....Area 51 hosting aliens is more plausible than the British conspiracy theory!Could you please show me a sample historical text of BANGLA written in Persian(Arabic....persians do not use their own script either...ironic) script??NOPE...you know why??Because when people here in Bengal were using persian script during the Mughal era...they were actually writing Persian(the language of the court of the empire)....not Bangla!


Oh Area 51 is a fact 

But on topic - I want Devnagari script to go. BD can use Arabic or Persian scripts instead. It will change the entire country in no time. Kalu brigade - pls support me.

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## baajey

reject fish and bhaat in the name of religion.....abolish all things which define bengali identity.....
after wen everything is done, jump to bay of bengal and swim ur way to arab lands.
by doing this u shall prove that bangladeshi muslims are the staunchest of muslims and the first of muslims who killed their cultural identity to appease religious identity.....
althoh we shall have a positive fallout of all this.....the bengali cultural centre of gravity shall shift to west bengal.

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## SarthakGanguly

The Snow Queen said:


> We are Bangladeshi and we are Muslims. The Bengali culture and culture is more fitting for Hindus not Muslims that's what we believe and the reason why some of us want to Islamise our culture and language... And we are not crazy about this change just saying what is right. If this were to become true then it will take many, many years! And we promise it's not going to effect West Bengal! By the way, I am just answering you.


It suits us just fine if you leave the 'Bengali culture'. Bengalis on our side of the border will breathe easy. @DRAY what say?

In any case - please just get on with your act quickly, all these repeated empty boasts are doing no good. You need to get started with your project. Hurry Up ... please.

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## third eye

Of course you must change the script !

How else will there be a perception of improvement & change ?

So what if it matters none to the people.

After all the people of Madras, Bangalore, Calcutta, Orissa have benefited so much.

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## INDIC

Azizam said:


> @INDIC That Persian dude's post should be copy pasted in threads like these to help these people land on earth from the lala land.



@rmi5 watch out this thread. 



SarthakGanguly said:


> Oh Area 51 is a fact
> 
> But on topic - I want Devnagari script to go. BD can use Arabic or Persian scripts instead. It will change the entire country in no time. Kalu brigade - pls support me.



I never knew Bengali is written in Devanagari script, oh boy, many Bangladeshis even don't know the name of their script.

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## INDIC

jaunty said:


> Because 55% Bangladeshis are of foreign origin (Arab, Turk, Persian, Afghan and other central Asians) and 15% of them are mixed. Only 30% are converted, that too from Buddhism.
> 
> Proof: Bengali Nationalism a Threat to Bangladesh's National Security | Page 5



That was an unforgettable post.

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## punit

The Snow Queen said:


> Should the people of Bangladesh really do away with Devanagari script of Bangla and go for Arabic/Persian script? To Islamise our Language and bring back our real roots of East Bengal? The way our forefathers used to write and maybe talk?
> 
> I have an idea that our first initiative should be to make a Petition. And perhaps, it is a small step to a big change! We want your opinions of all the people here, and then decide if we will make this Petition.
> 
> By the way, I myself cannot make this petition because I am scared to go for this all by myself and I don't know much about the History as some of you here knows... We need someone who is wise, intelligent and knowledgeable to make this Petition for us and can add it to the description of the Petition, which will be able to convince most people to sign.
> 
> I think Change.org and GoPetition are a good places to start.
> 
> Change.org - The world's platform for change
> 
> Petition Templates, Samples & Examples | GoPetition
> 
> @kalu_miah @MBI Munshi @aazidane @khair_ctg @Saiful Islam @Zahur Ahmed Chowdhury @kobiraaz
> 
> I probably have noticed some you guys here being huge supporters of this movement. Should we first start with a Petition?



why only script .. the real change will come with change in Language ! adopt Arabic !

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## rmi5

INDIC said:


> @rmi5 watch out this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> I never knew Bengali is written in Devanagari script, oh boy, many Bangladeshis even don't know the name of their script.


This section of PDF needs to be renamed as the fun defense forum.  
BD members are very funny and they seem to be always on drugs.  I like BD members and they are my favorites. 
The whole thread is a big joke.

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## punit

khair_ctg said:


> so your history ENDS from your masters' arrival? masters = us



yes you cetainly look like our Master! Pole vaulters !

in a way its good! in one -two generation Burdu speaking pole vaulter won be able to read/write Bangla !



kalu_miah said:


> First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
> 
> Mahatma Gandhi



stop quoting Hindoo baniya !~

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## dray

The Snow Queen said:


> We are Bangladeshi and we are Muslims. The Bengali culture and culture is more fitting for Hindus not Muslims that's what we believe and the reason why some of us want to Islamise our culture and language... And we are not crazy about this change just saying what is right. If this were to become true then it will take many, many years! And we promise it's not going to effect West Bengal! By the way, I am just answering you.



I am completely with you on this, the word "Bangla" itself sounds like a pagan term, same goes for the name of the country "Bangladesh", just ask anybody. You cannot simply get rid of this pagan past if you use the word "Bangla" in your country's name itself!! You should find a more appropriate name for your country, a name that goes well with your identity & culture. And as I mentioned earlier, it is far better to change to Arabic language than to this half-hearted khichdi of Bangla language with Arabic script. Your country's cultural bond is tied to Arabic language, not with some silly pagan Bangla. Hope you have read my post # 45 at page 3, that was a more detailed post with reasons.

I repeat, I am honestly with you on this and you can feel free to ask me for any suggestion to take it forward, I am willing to help you guys on this in my limited capacity. Don't let the criticizing voices from your country bog you down, they will fall in line eventually and understand the benefits of going back to their real culture instead of this Brahminical farce of imposed Bengali pagan culture that they are following.

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## baajey

rmi5 said:


> This section of PDF needs to be renamed as the fun defense forum.
> BD members are very funny and they seem to be always on drugs.  I like BD members and they are my favorites.
> The whole thread is a big joke.


 lol u r do bang on target......
but by and large they are very peaceful ppl.
decades of subjugation , corruption and denial has taken its toll thoh.

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## rmi5

baajey said:


> lol u r do bang on target......
> but by and large they are very peaceful ppl.
> decades of subjugation , corruption and denial has taken its toll thoh.


Yeah, over all, I like BD people, and they are good people. Their members are good, but damn funny at the same time as well.

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## baajey

b


DRAY said:


> I am completely with you on this, the word "Bangla" itself sounds like a pagan term, same goes for the name of the country "Bangladesh", just ask anybody. You cannot simply get rid of this pagan past if you use the word "Bangla" in your country's name itself!! You should find a more appropriate name for your country, a name that goes well with your identity & culture. And as I mentioned earlier, it is far better to change to Arabic language than to this half-hearted khichdi of Bangla language with Arabic script. Your country's cultural bond is tied to Arabic language, not with some silly pagan Bangla. Hope you have read my post # 45 at page 3, that was a more detailed post with reasons.
> 
> I repeat, I am honestly with you on this and you can feel free to ask me for any suggestion to take it forward, I am willing to help you guys on this in my limited capacity. Don't let the criticizing voices from your country bog you down, they will fall in line eventually and understand the benefits of going back to their real culture instead of this Brahminical farce of imposed Bengali pagan culture that they are following.


beware @DRAY , dont advice them something unless u want them NOT to follow it. they will change their decisions simply bcoz its also being reiterated by an indian fellow.
on a more serious note thoh, i share the culture of my bangladeshi brethren more than my ghoti (WB , south of ganga) frens (i m a bangal). and it pains me to see they are so adamant to drastically change their culture. i always believed that whatever religion these ppl (bengali ppl....west or east) practice, they shall never let go of their cultural identity. guess i was wrong.

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## Spring Onion

The Snow Queen said:


> I don't think so. Most people do not like Bangla, I mean no one really cares. Except for the Bangla nationalists.
> 
> Nastaliq, I think!



linguistic shit had caused us entire east Pakistan. So dont think that this time it will be easy.

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## INDIC

DRAY said:


> I am completely with you on this, the word "Bangla" itself sounds like a pagan term, same goes for the name of the country "Bangladesh", just ask anybody. You cannot simply get rid of this pagan past if you use the word "Bangla" in your country's name itself!! You should find a more appropriate name for your country, a name that goes well with your identity & culture. And as I mentioned earlier, it is far better to change to Arabic language than to this half-hearted khichdi of Bangla language with Arabic script. Your country's cultural bond is tied to Arabic language, not with some silly pagan Bangla. Hope you have read my post # 45 at page 3, that was a more detailed post with reasons.
> 
> I repeat, I am honestly with you on this and you can feel free to ask me for any suggestion to take it forward, I am willing to help you guys on this in my limited capacity. Don't let the criticizing voices from your country bog you down, they will fall in line eventually and understand the benefits of going back to their real culture instead of this Brahminical farce of imposed Bengali pagan culture that they are following.



Can't wait, name of Dhaka should be changed to Dakabad and names of Padma and Jamuna to _Darya-e-something_. The name Bangla*desh* sounds too Hindu , it should be removed too.

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## Spring Onion

INDIC said:


> Can't wait, name of Dhaka should be changed to Dakabad and names of Padma and Jamuna to _Darya-e-something_. The name Bangla*desh* sounds too Hindu , it should be removed too.



whats the big deal if changed ? after all Mumbai/Bombay / Madrass/Chennai are same cases


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## INDIC

Spring Onion said:


> whats the big deal if changed ? after all Mumbai/Bombay / Madrass/Chennai are same cases



That was firangi to desi name change.


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## Spring Onion

INDIC said:


> That was firangi to desi name change.



 when are you abolishing India ?

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## baajey

Bangladesh : Bangestan
Bangla : oops , non existent language.
Dhaka : Khule-aam-a-baad.
Padma : Darya-e-bangaal.
Bangladeshi : Dard-e-Disco

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## INDIC

Spring Onion said:


> when are you abolishing India ?



India is a Greeco-Roman name, not the British one.


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## baajey

Spring Onion said:


> when are you abolishing India ?


2000 years from now..
but u have to accept it......india sounds way way way cooler than pakistan , hindustan, bangladesh etc etc

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## Spring Onion

INDIC said:


> India is a Greeco-Roman name, not the British one.



bwahahahahahahahahahahahah so any alien name is acceptable and this desi is an excuse 



baajey said:


> 2000 years from now..
> but u have to accept it......india sounds way way way cooler than pakistan , hindustan, bangladesh etc etc



Bombay sounds coolers as well  as compared mumbai


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## INDIC

Spring Onion said:


> bwahahahahahahahahahahahah so any alien name is acceptable and this desi is an excuse



You know the importance of that name.


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## Spring Onion

INDIC said:


> You know the importance of that name.



 you dont have argument

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## punit

Spring Onion said:


> when are you abolishing India ?



we have Bharat for those who don't like India !

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## INDIC

Spring Onion said:


> you dont have argument



Springy baaji, you couldn't understand the argument.


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## baajey

Spring Onion said:


> Bombay sounds coolers as well  as compared mumbai


exactly......same with chennai and kolkata......
old madras n calcutta were more cooler than the indegenous names.

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## Spring Onion

INDIC said:


> Springy baaji, you couldn't understand the argument.



 that was an EXCUSE not argument


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## dray

baajey said:


> b
> 
> beware @DRAY , dont advice them something unless u want them NOT to follow it. they will change their decisions simply bcoz its also being reiterated by an indian fellow.
> on a more serious note thoh, i share the culture of my bangladeshi brethren more than my ghoti (WB , south of ganga) frens (i m a bangal). and it pains me to see they are so adamant to drastically change their culture. i always believed that whatever religion these ppl (bengali ppl....west or east) practice, they shall never let go of their cultural identity. guess i was wrong.



Me too a bangal

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## baajey

DRAY said:


> Me too a bangal


 arey bhai....aamraar mon er kotha keo bujhenaa.
our family moved from mymensingh in the 30s, but we still talk the same way, same customs of the erstwhile years.

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## INDIC

baajey said:


> our family moved from *mymensingh* in the 30s.



That's evilest Yindoo name, Taimurid people should get rid of such evil Yindoo names.

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## dray

baajey said:


> arey bhai....aamraar mon er kotha keo bujhenaa.
> our family moved from mymensingh in the 30s, but we still talk the same way, same customs of the erstwhile years.



Amader shikor Barishal e, Noyakhali teo bari chilo, aar mayer dik theke Khulna, sob e gechhe.  Kintu desh jakhon bhag hoyechhei, bhasha ebong sanskriti o bhag hok, pichhutan rekhe dukkho peye ki labh?

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## baajey

INDIC said:


> That's evilest Yindoo name, Taimurid people should get rid of such evil Yindoo names.


 bwahahahahhahahaha.....btw now i realize where are kalu mia, munshi bhai n co. ???



DRAY said:


> Amader shikor Barishal e, Noyakhali teo bari chilo, aar mayer dik theke Khulna, sob e gechhe.  Kintu desh jakhon bhag hoyechhei, bhasha ebong sanskriti o bhag hok, pichhutan rekhe dukkho peye ki labh?


 aasha bondhu aasha.....

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## INDIC

Spring Onion said:


> that was an EXCUSE not argument



Maan jao springy baaji, tumhare palle kuch nahi pada.

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## dray

baajey said:


> aasha bondhu aasha.....



Aasha rekhe aar labh nei, ora aar firchhe na, oder charamponthi dolguloi konorakam aapos hote debena, aar naramponthider e byapare khub ekta jor nei, thakle ebhabe khunokhuni kore deshbhagtai to hoto na.

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## INDIC

kalu_miah said:


> Just like Hindi uses Devnagari and Urdu uses Nastaliq, we will keep the name Bangla, you can take some other name like Hind-Bangla or Sanskrit-Bangla:
> 
> Hindi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> "The dialect upon which Standard Hindi is based is _Khariboli_, the vernacular of Delhi and the surrounding western Uttar Pradesh and southern Uttarakhand region. This dialect acquired linguistic prestige in the Mughal Empire (17th century) and became known as _Urdu_, "the language of the court". In the late 19th century, the movement standardising a written language from Khariboli, for the Indian masses in North India, started to standardise Hindi as a separate language from Urdu, which was learnt by the elite. In 1881 Bihar accepted Hindi as its sole official language, replacing Urdu, and thus became the first state of India to adopt Hindi.
> 
> After independence, the government of India instituted the following conventions:
> 
> standardisation of grammar: In 1954, the Government of India set up a committee to prepare a grammar of Hindi; The committee's report was released in 1958 as "A Basic Grammar of Modern Hindi"
> standardisation of the orthography, using the Devanagari script, by the Central Hindi Directorate of the Ministry of Education and Culture to bring about uniformity in writing, to improve the shape of some Devanagari characters, and introducing diacritics to express sounds from other languages.
> The Constituent Assembly adopted Hindi as the Official Language of the Union on 14 September 1949. Hence, it is celebrated as Hindi Day.
> 
> *Comparison with Modern Standard Urdu*
> See also: Hindi–Urdu controversy, Hindustani phonology, and Hindustani grammar
> Linguistically, Hindi and Urdu are the same language. Hindi is written in the Devanagari script and uses more Sanskrit words, whereas Urdu is written in the Persian script (Nastaliq) and uses more Persian words."
> 
> Nastaʿlīq script - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Hindi-Urdu was an artificial divide it can't be kept artificially divided for so long, both languages have already reunited to great extent and Bollywood had played great role to do it.


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## Luffy 500

baajey said:


> arey bhai....aamraar mon er kotha keo bujhenaa.
> our family moved from mymensingh in the 30s, but we still talk the same way, same customs of the erstwhile years.



Why did your family moved then? U see where the cultural affection and loyalty lies. Your family felt more close to hindu India than muslim BD since we indeed are 2 different people. Culture is shaped by religion and in Islam culture means BS if it is in conflict with religion. Btw what's the difference between your family of the 30s and hindu BDs of today...... well nothing. There's a reason why they have assets in India as that is there spiritual and cultural homeland. If u are so into "apar-opar bangla crap" and culture (which i m sure like most WB indians u aren't) then leave the Indian union and join muslim majority BD. 



DRAY said:


> Aasha rekhe aar labh nei, ora aar firchhe na, oder charamponthi dolguloi konorakam aapos hote debena, aar naramponthider e byapare khub ekta jor nei, thakle ebhabe khunokhuni kore deshbhagtai to hoto na.



Come back? So some hindutva WBengalis still have such wet dreams.  U see your bigotry here? U are calling us muslims soromponthi.  Just based on religion u are calling us soromponthi. U see the kind of ispamophobia and hatred u have towards muslims? Who the hell r u to label us that and expect luvy-duvy relations with us? Are the brains of Indians really that screwed?

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## dray

Luffy 500 said:


> Come back? So some hindutva WBengalis still have such wet dreams.  U see your bigotry here? U are calling us muslims soromponthi.  Just based on religion u are calling us soromponthi. U see the kind of ispamophobia and hatred u have towards muslims? Who the hell r u to label us that and expect luvy-duvy relations with us? Are the brains of Indians really that screwed?



Do you understand Bengali? When did I talk about coming back? In fact I oppose it. And I mentioned about both Charamponthi and Naramponthi, both exist in Bangladesh and here among PDF Bangladeshis also. And to hell with your luvy-duvy relations with us, I want nothing of it, in fact I always ask you guys to keep away and not to jump the border fence. And yes, I am full of bigotry & hatred against your kind, not the entire Muslim population.

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## Luffy 500

DRAY said:


> Do you understand Bengali? When did I talk about coming back? In fact I oppose it. And I mentioned about both Charamponthi and Naramponthi, both exist in Bangladesh and here among PDF Bangladeshis also. And to hell with your luvy-duvy relations with us, I want nothing of it, in fact I always ask you guys to keep away and not to jump the border fence. And yes, I am full of bigotry & hatred against your kind, not the entire Muslim population.



Apnar post pore to mone hosilo apni ashai buk bedhe asen.  There are no choromponthis and noromponthi muslim classes. A muslim is a muslim. Its as simple as that. Better get this fact into your head rather than having high hopes on BD's "noromponthis".

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## The Snow Queen

@Luffy 500 What does "soromponthi" even mean?


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## Luffy 500

The Snow Queen said:


> @Luffy 500 What does "soromponthi" even mean?



Extremist.

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## The Snow Queen

@Luffy 500 And also, what's "naramponthi" like DRAY was saying?


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## dray

Luffy 500 said:


> Apnar post pore to mone hosilo apni ashai buk bedhe asen.  There are no choromponthis and noromponthi muslim classes. A muslim is a muslim. Its as simple as that. Better get this fact into your head rather than having high hopes on BD's "noromponthis".



Abar postkhan poira dekhen, ami kono aasha rakhi nai, temon kisu ami chai o na, bhagwan ja koren mangaler janyoi koren. 
And of course there are extremists and moderates among Muslims, and I have no hope on the moderates of Bangladesh. Don't assume things.


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## Luffy 500

The Snow Queen said:


> @Luffy 500 And also, what's "naramponthi" like DRAY was saying?



Awami type liberal secular indian dalals. Those who are anti-islam and anti-muslim are noromponthis AKA saint liberals to them.

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## baajey

Luffy 500 said:


> Why did your family moved then? U see where the cultural affection and loyalty lies. Your family felt more close to hindu India than muslim BD since we indeed are 2 different people. Culture is shaped by religion and in Islam culture means BS if it is in conflict with religion. Btw what's the difference between your family of the 30s and hindu BDs of today...... well nothing. There's a reason why they have assets in India as that is there spiritual and cultural homeland. If u are so into "apar-opar bangla crap" and culture (which i m sure like most WB indians u aren't) then leave the Indian union and join muslim majority BD.


guilty as charged .
my family moved from present day bangladesh bcoz of the same reason which brought about the partition. my forefathers were far sighted and thus were spared of the riots of partition and 71.
about culture becoming BS if its conflicting with religion, only islam has this distinction. even then , indonesia is still adhering to its pre islamic culture, some of which were hindu and buddhists.
i dunno much about hindu BDians (10 at max whom i met in boarding school). now having assets is not a big deal i suppose. we dont make a big deal out of SRK's home in dubai.
and epar opar bangla bonhomie was killed by bad policies of indian govt and hardliners like u.

i guess u hate the land too....
1. its surrounded by hindu india
2. its soil is made impure due to per historic hindus shiitting in the open for centuries.
ur country do as u like.....
i m commenting bcoz , i m not barred to do so....

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## dray

The Snow Queen said:


> @Luffy 500 And also, what's "naramponthi" like DRAY was saying?



Charamponthi= Extremists
Naramponthi= Moderates

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## Luffy 500

baajey said:


> guilty as charged .
> my family moved from present day bangladesh bcoz of the same reason which brought about the partition. my forefathers were far sighted and thus were spared of the riots of partition and 71.
> about culture becoming BS if its conflicting with religion, only islam has this distinction. even then , indonesia is still adhering to its pre islamic culture, some of which were hindu and buddhists.
> i dunno much about hindu BDians (10 at max whom i met in boarding school). now having assets is not a big deal i suppose. we dont make a big deal out of SRK's home in dubai.
> and epar opar bangla bonhomie was killed by bad policies of indian govt and hardliners like u.
> 
> i guess u hate the land too....
> 1. its surrounded by hindu india
> 2. its soil is made impure due to per historic hindus shiitting in the open for centuries.
> ur country do as u like.....
> i m commenting bcoz , i m not barred to do so....



Nah i don't hate the land. WHy should i. Doesn't make sense does it? My land is not India. Btw whatever i posted are facts and u admitted that. Thanks.


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## Joe Shearer

The Snow Queen said:


> We are talking about changing the script not the language. Bangla used to be written in Persian because that's how it was written and used to be back in the day until 19th century, the British Sanskritised the script with the help of Hindu Brahmins so they could target the Muslims.
> 
> We should adopt the past script again in order to Islamize the language and help our people to read and write Quran better.



HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

This one is better than our Hindutva goons. Joi Bangla.

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## baajey

Luffy 500 said:


> Nah i don't hate the land. WHy should i. Doesn't make sense does it? My land is not India. Btw whatever i posted are facts and u admitted that. Thanks.


 no probs , btw ur 'bangal' bengali is very good ....reminds me of my old days.....same goes to @DRAY .....

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## The Snow Queen

Apar-opar bangla, bonhomie. What does these terms mean? And is the current Bangla written in Siddham script? Because that's what I saw in Wikipedia.


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## Vyom

Bangladesh was born because of Bangla and bengali cuture, for the sake of analogy the entire Indonesian islamic culture uses Bahasa Indonesia, it has no effect on their religion. Bring your roots back ?? What are you going to do ? Cleanse your history books of people like Nazrul Islam and Rabindranath Tagore ?

Bangladesh is racing ahead of Pakistan because of Bangladeshis don't suffers from identity crisis as Pakistanis do. You are not bringing your roots back you are trying to become what you're not. You are not an arab, nither are the Pakistanis.
Always always always be true to you country and your culture everything else comes 2nd.

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## dray

The Snow Queen said:


> Apar-opar bangla, bonhomie. What does these terms mean? And is the current Bangla written in Siddham script? Because that's what I saw in Wikipedia...




All nonsense dear, just crap, some malauns from West Bengal and some Awami liberal dalals from Bangladesh think that pagan Bengalis of WB and Muslim Bangladeshis of BD are same people divided by religion, so they talk about stupid things like cultural exchanges, greater people to people contact, love sove, bonhomie and all such $hits. 

Btw epar-opar Bangla means two parts of Bengal, WB and BD. That's why I am suggesting you people to get rid of anything remotely related to Bengaliness to permanently get rid of this epar-opar BS. If you want, I can give you step by step guide to get rid of this pagan thingy.

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## DRaisinHerald

baajey said:


> guilty as charged .
> 2. its soil is made impure due to per historic hindus shiitting in the open for centuries.
> ur country do as u like.....
> i m commenting bcoz , i m not barred to do so....



No offence to anyone Bengali or Bangladeshi, esp. if they're HIndu; but the Padma river is a tributary to the dirtiest river on earth, the Ganga


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## Vyom

Luffy 500 said:


> Apnar post pore to mone hosilo apni ashai buk bedhe asen.  There are no choromponthis and noromponthi muslim classes. A muslim is a muslim. Its as simple as that. Better get this fact into your head rather than having high hopes on BD's "noromponthis".


 
Bhul bhal boke jao.. muslim is muslim.. so apprently you are trying there is no difference between Gunwielding nut jobs like tha talibs and People like Nazrul Islam are the same... and we have screwed up brains. good luck with that...

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## baajey

DRaisinHerald said:


> *No offence* to anyone Bengali or Bangladeshi, esp. if they're HIndu; but the Padma river is a tributary to the dirtiest river on earth, the Ganga


none taken buddy.
u r true, and no shame accepting the truth.
filthy river......but if u check the upper course of the river....like in uttarakhand , its crystal clear n awesome.


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## Vyom

DRaisinHerald said:


> No offence to anyone Bengali or Bangladeshi, esp. if they're HIndu; but the Padma river is a tributary to the dirtiest river on earth, the Ganga



Padma is the "distributary" of the Ganga. So the education system is so weak in Pakistan that you don't know shit about secondary school geography.

The dirtiest river on the planet its not that dirty.

*Typo edited


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## DRaisinHerald

Vyom said:


> Padma is the "distributary" of the Ganga. So the education system is so week (weak?) in Pakistan that you don't know shit about secondary school geography.



Fail attempt at trying to score a brownie point. I don't live in Pakistan *points to flags*
Secondly, I stopped learning geography after year 9 when I took up history instead.
Thirdly, I'm sure you got the point though


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## Luffy 500

Vyom said:


> Bhul bhal boke jao.. muslim is muslim.. so apprently you are trying there is no difference between Gunwielding nut jobs like tha talibs and People like Nazrul Islam are the same... and we have screwed up brains. good luck with that...



What islamophobic bigots/westerners etc mean by the terms such as extremist/moderate/liberal is pretty apparent. A muslim abiding by his/her religion is extremist/terrorist while those who are not religious even anti-islam are some how good "muslims" labelled liberal/moderate etc. Like it or not 150 mn "extremist" exist on both sides of India with another 1.5 Bn around the globe and the no. is only growing. Learn to live with that reality in mind. Not to mention another 120mn + "extremist" in India itself.

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## dray

Vyom said:


> Bhul bhal boke jao.. muslim is muslim.. so apprently you are trying there is no difference between Gunwielding nut jobs like tha talibs and People like Nazrul Islam are the same... and we have screwed up brains. good luck with that...



Talibans are students of Islam, they are the true followers of orthodox Islam, and Kazi Nazrul Islam is a murtard who even composed and sang Shyama-Sangeet to worship a pagan Hindu god!!!!! 

I think BD should also get rid of their national poet Nazrul along with Tagore, in fact poetry itself is an un-Islamic thingy as far as I know. This Bengali culture is simply polluting the pious environment of BD.

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## Vyom

DRaisinHerald said:


> Fail attempt at trying to score a brownie point. I don't live in Pakistan *points to flags*
> Secondly, I stopped learning geography after year 9 when I took up history instead;
> Thirdly, I'm sure you got the point though



Yup got your point. Pakistanis end screwed up even in the British education system, perhaps its something endemic. Its not about learning, per se, its about knowing what you are talking about.

P.S. Stopped studying Geography 13 years ago took up Energy engineering. And you are very enthusiastic about typos.


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## INDIC

The Snow Queen said:


> We ain't fish bhaat eating people. That's why we want to change the script and our way of culture so people can distinguish us between West Bengalis vegetarian fish-bhaat eating people with their ganga panga pooja. We are omnivorous people who eat Chicken, goat etc. And cow which you people call it "Maa" LMAO
> You should come to Bangladesh some day during Eid al Azha and see how we slaughter your cows and it's literally on the streets! And we call it Qurbaani Eid!! The poor and the Fakirs looooove Qurbaani Eid, because they get free meat!



That provoking is useless you can even eat pizza-pasta, you guys are what you are fish bhaat eating east Bengalis who were not the rulers of anyone until you got your country called Bangladesh.


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## Vyom

Luffy 500 said:


> What islamophobic bigots/westerners etc mean by the terms such as extremist/moderate/liberal is pretty apparent. A muslim abiding by his/her religion is extremist/terrorist while those who are not religious even anti-islam are some how good "muslims" labelled liberal/moderate etc. Like it or not 150 mn "extremist" exist on both sides of India with another 1.5 Bn around the globe and the no. is only growing. Learn to live with that reality in mind. Not to mention another 120mn + "extremist" in India itself.



So you suggest that the entire global Islamic population is huge monolithic structure with no factions and all are the same in their thought process exactly identical. What you state is skewed representation and an attempt to obfuscate one self from the reality. Even if say I take up you reason that the world looks all devouts are 'extremists' and all "anti-Islam" as moderates. This is going no where.

There is abso lately no difference between the Saudis, the Iranians and the Afghan rag tag talibs. Awesome. 

The biggest detriment to the cause of Islam have been the "extremists", but in your view they are not anti-Islam and its teachings. The ones who recognize the other religions rights to coexist freely, aka 'liberals' are the anti-Islam people, even though they may follow Islam in practice ?

We are happy with the Muslims in India, they are as much an Indian as I am, and they are not Extremists. The seer lack of reason and incoherent logic in your statements is appalling.

Zaid Hamid would be proud of you.



The Snow Queen said:


> Do you think all the Bangladeshis are idiots? Most of us are Muslims first and foremost and for us Muslims, religion comes first and then Nationality because we believe in Almighty Allah! Christian or a Hindu will never understand it! NEVER! Most of us would love to bring the Nastaliq script back because seriously it's going to help us with our religion and our identity as Muslims because that is our first priority! Like I said, it's true most Bangladeshis don't really give a damn about Bangla script. Infact everyone hates studying it and you can see the proof in schools.
> 
> 
> 
> We ain't fish bhaat eating people. That's why we want to change the script and our way of culture so people can distinguish us between West Bengalis vegetarian fish-bhaat eating people with their ganga panga pooja. We are omnivorous people who eat Chicken, goat etc. And cow which you people call it "Maa" LMAO
> You should come to Bangladesh some day during Eid al Azha and see how we slaughter your cows and it's literally on the streets! And we call it Qurbaani Eid!! The poor and the Fakirs looooove Qurbaani Eid, because they get free meat!
> 
> 
> 
> What's the deal with labelling Muslim Bangladeshis as Jamaati!? You think we are Hindus like West Bengalis so if I say anything Islamic you get to automatically call us Jamaatis? We are Muslims but not Jamaatis! That's why we want a separate script so people don't associate us and think we and Hindu West Bengalis are the same because we are not.




All this effort to prove that you are not West Bengali... Just like Pakistan is trying hard to prove it is not India. You feel insecure of your identity in country of 99% Muslims. The Mullah are doing a great Job one failed state on the west and now one treading in the same path on the east. all the best wipe out your Bengali identity. Speak Arabi.... Go though mass genetic engineering and make yourself white and tall as the Arabs... don't stop at the script itself, go the full distance.

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## Anubis

The Snow Queen said:


> You are so right, dear. I completely agree with every single thing that you just said! By the way, I plan on learning Farsi this summer! (★^O^★)
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it for hippies? What's the point if we can't take any action but only talk about it in forums... What's going on..? :O
> 
> 
> 
> *Why are you calling me HIM you! You, cretin and moron!*
> 
> 
> 
> First you call me a Jamaati and now you think I am a guy! You halfwit imbecile!
> 
> @kalu_miah You are right all these freaks are simpletons with their own views of the World and their own assumptions about everyone. But I guess that's what the internet is like... Everything becomes a big joke... Anyway I am not too hang up on this change but just wanted opinions of others, and instead they all acting like it's the end of the World. And calling me names and making me seem like I am an extremist, evil and being rude and mean with me. But I don't really care, because I don't give importance to fools.
> 
> 
> 
> I have decided to learn Persian. But I am going to start learning it, after my A Levels this May. I can read Arabic and last year I also started learning Italian! Heeheeheee!!
> 
> 
> 
> We are not Jamaatis and not Jamaati supporters (at least true in my case)d there is nothing hilarious here! Okay, I don't even care or know about politics because it is a huge a time waste and boring! I mean in our country it's always BNP or Awami League fighting because of what happened in 1971. Oh my goodness! It is so booooring!!! I don't like our politicians and want to get rid of them not just only me, I think everyone feels the same way. You have chance now so better choose your upcoming Prime Minister wisely in this election, I am advising you. And quit calling everyone Jamaatis it's not nice!



Well your history says you liked a comment from azidane where he says "Bengali nationalism is feminine and sissy"(paraphrased)......when someone uses the word feminine in such a negative context and another person supports it either the second person is actually a misogynist man or a woman(highly unlikely in your case) without an iota of self respect....Either way you are not a very respectable person!

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## Vyom

Well read again, I didn't brand you as an extremist. The point that I am trying to make all people are not the same, are Indonesians not Muslims ?? but i cannot buy the argument that Islam has a threat from a script ?? 

A language is a mere tool to communicate to talk, your beliefs and practice make you what ever you are. If using English as medium to communicate and talk. Has it affected your beliefs as a Muslim. Bengali like English, a language with a script and different areas have identities. What are you trying to achieve by changing the script it self.

Quran has been translated into innumerable languages but has it changes the beliefs the practices and the teachings of Islam ? it has not. Only those people who use the Arabic script are Muslims ?

Its just your agenda of being portrayed as "NOT-WestBenagli" at work here. This has nothing to do with Islam.

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## jaunty

khair_ctg said:


> but we are supposed to be the culturally conquerING people right. by the way some of the coolest people i met in the States are from the "deserts". i traveled through the the Arab world as well.



Nah, you are the conquered ones. Look how Arabs think about Iranians today, the same applies to you people Saudi Arabia largest military exercise ''Sword of Abdullah'' | Page 19 Everyone knows how you Bangladeshis are treated by Arabs. They even selectively ban visa for you people No new UAE visas for Bangladeshis | GulfNews.com If some Western countries did that you would have cried racism. When your masters from desert do it, then it's ok. That is the textbook definition of slavery.

PS.- I don't have any problem with people who don't act like wannabe Arabs.

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## dray

Anubis said:


> Well your history says you liked a comment from azidane where he says "Bengali nationalism is feminine and sissy"(paraphrased)......when someone uses the word feminine in such a negative context and another person supports it either the second person is actually a misogynist man or a woman(highly unlikely in your case) without an iota of self respect....Either way you are not a very respectable person!



Now you are being harsh on a sweet 17 year old girl, young people like her are the future of the great country presently known as Bangladesh, and she has a very legitimate point here. You are too old and too few to resist the popular demand of the young citizens of BD, and if you still want to stick to that pagan Bengali language, literature, and cultural thingy, then go and mingle with those murtard West Bengalis.

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## jaunty

The Snow Queen said:


> now you think I am a guy! You halfwit imbecile!



Yes I think you are a guy, do you have a problem with that?


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## Ammyy

jaunty said:


> Nah, you are the conquered ones. Look how Arabs think about Iranians today, the same applies to you people Saudi Arabia largest military exercise ''Sword of Abdullah'' | Page 19 Everyone knows how you Bangladeshis are treated by Arabs. They even selectively ban visa for you people No new UAE visas for Bangladeshis | GulfNews.com If some Western countries did that you would have cried racism. When your masters from desert do it, then it's ok. That is the textbook meaning of slavery.




They all know this reality but they all are wannabe arab as its seems by their views. So even slavery is accepted.

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## The Snow Queen

INDIC said:


> That provoking is useless you can even eat pizza-pasta, you guys are what you are fish bhaat eating east Bengalis who were not the rulers of anyone until you got your country called Bangladesh.



Still better than major fish and bhaat eating West Bengalis!



Vyom said:


> We are happy with the Muslims in India, they are as much an Indian as I am, and they are not Extremists. The seer lack of reason and incoherent logic in your statements is appalling.



Will you stop labelling everyone as extremists! Do you really know what extremist really mean!?

Well, I have two Indian friends on facebook, one is a Hindu and another one is a Sheik. And they are very good friends actually; and we admin a Ricardo Kaka fan group and it is a huge group! So I talked with my Hindu friend and I said where he thinks I am from? And he said I am from Afghanistan or Bangladesh. And I said "Why so!?" And he said because I act like a typical Muslim, I don't know what he meant by that... I asked him, "Why not Pakistan or India?" He says because I am different from Pakistani or an India Muslim girl. I asked "How?" He replied that Pakistani girls are different, and Indian Muslims are proud and think highly of themselves. And then he said I am a unique person and that I am really sweet! 

Listen I am not racist or prejudiced. I don't mind any people regardless of religion or colour. But now, I just wanted an opinion of you all about the Bengali script concerning Bangladesh.



Anubis said:


> Well your history says you liked a comment from azidane where he says "Bengali nationalism is feminine and sissy"(paraphrased)......when someone uses the word feminine in such a negative context and another person supports it either the second person is actually a misogynist man or a woman(highly unlikely in your case) without an iota of self respect....Either way you are not a very respectable person!



Do not get me wrapped up with your misogynistic sexist views. Don't talk with me.

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## SarthakGanguly

Spring Onion said:


> when are you abolishing India ?


Are you aware of the name of our country?
It is Bharatiya Ganarajya.
Like yours is Islami Jamhurriyet e Pakistan.

The English names are standardized. France still calls us Indie for example.

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## Vyom

The Snow Queen said:


> Well, I have two Indian friends on facebook, one is a Hindu and another one is a Sheik. And they are very good friends actually; and we admin a Ricardo Kaka fan group and it is a huge group! So I talked with my Hindu friend and I said where he thinks I am from? And he said I am from Afghanistan or Bangladesh. And I said "Why so!?" And he said because I act like a typical Muslim, I don't know what he meant by that... I asked him, "Why not Pakistan or India?" He says because I am different from Pakistani or an India Muslim girl. I asked "How?" He replied that Pakistani girls are different, and Indian Muslims are proud and think highly of themselves. And then he said I am a unique person and that I am really sweet!
> 
> Listen I am not racist or prejudiced. I don't mind any people regardless of religion or colour. But now, I just wanted an opinion of you all about the Bengali script concerning Bangladesh.



REad : this post : Should we make a Petition to change the Devanagari script of Bangla!? | Page 9

Also, I am from West Begal, but not a begnali. BUt i love the language it is very sweet tongue. and owing to my SAARC camps when I was a kid, I have had a few of friends from Bangladesh, 4-5 from Dhaka and 2 from Sylhet. They are amazing people, extremely nice and I am sure you are a nice person too.

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## Luffy 500

Vyom said:


> So you suggest that the entire global Islamic population is huge monolithic structure with no factions and all are the same in their thought process exactly identical. What you state is skewed representation and an attempt to obfuscate one self from the reality. Even if say I take up you reason that the world looks all devouts are 'extremists' and all "anti-Islam" as moderates. This is going no where.
> 
> There is abso lately no difference between the Saudis, the Iranians and the Afghan rag tag talibs. Awesome.
> 
> The biggest detriment to the cause of Islam have been the "extremists", but in your view they are not anti-Islam and its teachings. The ones who recognize the other religions rights to coexist freely, aka 'liberals' are the anti-Islam people, even though they may follow Islam in practice ?
> 
> We are happy with the Muslims in India, they are as much an Indian as I am, and they are not Extremists. The seer lack of reason and incoherent logic in your statements is appalling.
> 
> Zaid Hamid would be proud of you.



What your fellow countrymen @DRAY was referring to by the term soromponti was pretty obvious. He was referring to pro-islamic political parties and factions in BD. Its a no brainer what u intend to mean by the term extremist when referring to muslims.



Vyom said:


> Well read again, I didn't brand you as an extremist. The point that I am trying to make all people are not the same, are Indonesians not Muslims ?? but i cannot buy the argument that Islam has a threat from a script ??
> 
> A language is a mere tool to communicate to talk, your beliefs and practice make you what ever you are. If using English as medium to communicate and talk. Has it affected your beliefs as a Muslim. Bengali like English, a language with a script and different areas have identities. What are you trying to achieve by changing the script it self.
> 
> Quran has been translated into innumerable languages but has it changes the beliefs the practices and the teachings of Islam ? it has not. Only those people who use the Arabic script are Muslims ?
> 
> Its just your agenda of being portrayed as "NOT-WestBenagli" at work here. This has nothing to do with Islam.



If this post is intended for me u should look at my post # 10 in page 1. I m not in favour of changing the script and yeah Islam doesn't put bar or have any problem with any language. Btw there is no place for ethnic or lingual nationalism in Islam. But i do appreciate the intention of the likes of OP in opening such a thread.

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## Vyom

Luffy 500 said:


> Btw there is no place for ethnic or lingual nationalism in Islam.



Then why do so many nationalities/countries exist, on such nationalism, where Islam is the sate religion or the Country and society is Islamic? Asking just out of curiosity.

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## dray

Luffy 500 said:


> If this post is intended for me u should look at my post # 10 in page 1. I m not in favour of changing the script and yeah Islam doesn't put bar or have any problem with any language. Btw there is no place for ethnic or lingual nationalism in Islam. But i do appreciate the intention of the likes of OP in opening such a thread.



Do you recognize that Prophet (PBUH) penned down Allah's message in Arabic? Do you recognize that the land of Mecca & Medina speaks Arabic? Do you even recognize that Saudi Arabia is the birthplace of Islam and the holiest land for all Musalmaan? What is your problem with not adopting Arabic, the true language of Islam, instead of pagan Bangla? I am not in favour of changing the script though, it will be a half-baked step, I suggest completely replacing Bangla with Arabic, get rid of Bangla, or Hindu Brahminical Islamophobe malaun characters like Tagore will always haunt you people, just burn those bloody Bangla books.

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## The Snow Queen

DRAY said:


> Now you are being harsh on a sweet 17 year old girl, young people like her are the future of the great country presently known as Bangladesh, and she has a very legitimate point here. You are too old and too few to resist the popular demand of the young citizens of BD, and if you still want to stick to that pagan Bengali language, literature, and cultural thingy, then go and mingle with those murtard West Bengalis.



Funny! LOL 
I might be tomboyish and sometimes a bit too much, but not a guy and I think Anubis is an idiot! lolzz

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## Luffy 500

Vyom said:


> Then why do so many nationalities/countries exist, on such nationalism, where Islam is the sate religion or the Country and society is Islamic? Asking just out of curiosity.



Just because so many nationalities /countries exist doesn't mean Islam allows that. All of this was foretold by our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the punishment for those who transgress and disobey Allah(swt) commandments has also been made very clear in the Quran and sunnah. Let just say Islam is perfect but muslims are not and we all will have to answer to Allah(swt) on the day of judgement. And yeah a muslim must strive for an fully islamic society within his/her limited capacity as Allah(swt) sees the intention and yeah there are still many islamic societies albeit not perfect. KSA and now brunei are good eg.

Btw most muslim states in its current form didn't exist before european colonization and weakening of the last islamic Caliphate the ottomans. SO muslims were indeed united for a large part of the last 1400 years. Its hasn't been 100s years yet since the ottoman empire got dissolved. As for a model islamic caliphate after prophet Muhammad (pbuh) death ...... that would be the Rashidun caliphate governed by the 4 rightly guided companions of Prophet Muhamman (pbuh). @Vyom

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## Spring Onion

SarthakGanguly said:


> Are you aware of the name of our country?
> It is Bharatiya Ganarajya.
> Like yours is Islami Jamhurriyet e Pakistan.
> 
> The English names are standardized. France still calls us Indie for example.



bwahahahahaha but you bharatis are not French why would you call yourself indies

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## Indischer

Spring Onion said:


> bwahahahahaha but you bharatis are not French why would you call yourself indies



That's to make it easier for others to identify us. You see, a Frenchman or an American would be lost if we called ourselves Bharateeya on introduction. Besides, we're comfortable with multiple identities. A majority of us even have multiple Gods. So yeah, we're Indians and Bharateeyas at the same time. You can continue calling us Bharotis as well.

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## dray

Luffy 500 said:


> Just because so many nationalities /countries exist doesn't mean Islam allows that. All of this was foretold by our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the punishment for those who transgress and disobey Allah(swt) commandments has also been made very clear in the Quran and sunnah. Let just say Islam is perfect but muslims are not and we all will have to answer to Allah(swt) on the day of judgement. And yeah a muslim must strive for an fully islamic society within his/her limited capacity as Allah(swt) sees the intention and yeah there are still many islamic societies albeit not perfect. *KSA and now brunei are good eg.*



If KSA and Brunei can, then why can't Bangladesh also become an example to rest of the Islamic world? Work harder towards that goal, bring Arabic language, bring Sharia, bring some Salafi/Wahabi thought leaders from KSA to show your people the right path, remember, no Islamic country is truly Islamic without Sharia.

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## Spring Onion

Indischer said:


> That's to make it easier for others to identify us. You see, a Frenchman or an American would be lost if we called ourselves Bharateeya on introduction. Besides, we're comfortable with multiple identities. A majority of us even have multiple Gods. So yeah, we're Indians and Bharateeyas at the same time. You can continue calling us Bharotis as well.


\
lolzzzz then why your members are asking BDeshies to change everything to desi just because one Bangladeshi talked about changing the script.

You bharatis are funny people everything is ok for yourself but you get worked up on internal matters of others

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## baajey

The Snow Queen said:


> Apar-opar bangla, bonhomie. What does these terms mean? And is the current Bangla written in Siddham script? Because that's what I saw in Wikipedia.


 where are u from??? ur question makes it clear that either u stay in some otehr country or u r not connected very well.
epaar opaar bangla bonhomie is somewhat similar to the "aman ki asha" (indo pak mushy mushy).


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## Indischer

Spring Onion said:


> \
> lolzzzz then why your members are asking BDeshies to change everything to desi just because one Bangladeshi talked about changing the script.
> 
> You bharatis are funny people everything is ok for yourself but you get worked up on internal matters of others



Generalize much? Please have a look at the poll. I myself have voted for Bangladesh to introduce Nastaliq instead of these mushriki scripts. I've even suggested that Bangladesh rename itself as Al Bangistan if they like the name.

You Pakistanis are funny people everything is ok for yourself but you get worked up on internal matters of others. Makes sense?

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## Vyom

Luffy 500 said:


> Just because so many nationalities /countries exist doesn't mean Islam allows that. All of this was foretold by our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the punishment for those who transgress and disobey Allah(swt) commandments has also been made very clear in the Quran and sunnah. Let just say Islam is perfect but muslims are not and we all will have to answer to Allah(swt) on the day of judgement. And yeah a muslim must strive for an fully islamic society within his/her limited capacity as Allah(swt) sees the intention and yeah there are still many islamic societies albeit not perfect. KSA and now brunei are good eg.



Then
1) Muslims are not but you are the true ones my dear gems..!!
2) So yet it is not 'allowed' but even if its the reality, It is not the reality, allmost all muslims (barring KSA and Brunei (last week onwards)) were traitors to the cause of Islam. then that majority 1.5 billion people are not true Muslims. but are only pawns to the hands of the powerful clerics and true Muslims, 

and I thought the Roman Catholics were the only ones crazy.


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## Spring Onion

Indischer said:


> Generalize much? Please have a look at the poll. I myself have voted for Bangladesh to introduce Nastaliq instead of these mushriki scripts. I've even suggested that Bangladesh rename itself as Al Bangistan if they like the name.
> 
> You Pakistanis are funny people everything is ok for yourself but you get worked up on internal matters of others. Makes sense?



 oh so you Indians voted again lolzzzzzz it was supposed to be done by Bangladeshis not bharatis

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## Vyom

Spring Onion said:


> bwahahahahaha but you bharatis are not French why would you call yourself indies



You call yourself "a spring onion" you Pakistanis are not British Grocer's favorite vegetable are you ?


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## Indischer

Spring Onion said:


> oh so you Indians voted again lolzzzzzz it was supposed to be done by Bangladeshis not bharatis



We always vote for a good cause. If someone makes a poll asking if Pakistan needs to adopt Sharia or not, we'll vote a Thumping YES there as well.

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## Vyom

Spring Onion said:


> oh so you Indians voted again lolzzzzzz it was supposed to be done by Bangladeshis not bharatis



Then ask the mods to ban all the 'Indians' it was for all the forum members. But being democratically dysfunctional as a Pakistani you may find it hard to understand.


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## Spring Onion

Vyom said:


> Then ask the mods to ban all the 'Indians' it was for all the forum members. But being democratically dysfunctional as a Pakistani you may find it hard to understand.



I think you are new. such polls which are related to an internal matters of country are supposed to be taken by citizens of that country NOT by s


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## SarthakGanguly

Spring Onion said:


> oh so you Indians voted again lolzzzzzz it was supposed to be done by Bangladeshis not bharatis


Most Indians voted yes. I know I did. It gives us pleasure to see BD going this way. It's like a prophecy coming true. It's like - "Told you so"

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## Manindra

Spring Onion said:


> oh so you Indians voted again lolzzzzzz it was supposed to be done by Bangladeshis not bharatis



We are world's largest democracy & nobody could barred us from voting. :p

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## Luffy 500

Vyom said:


> Then
> 1) Muslims are not but you are the true ones my dear gems..!!
> 2) So yet it is not 'allowed' but even if its the reality, It is not the reality, allmost all muslims (barring KSA and Brunei (last week onwards)) were traitors to the cause of Islam. then that majority 1.5 billion people are not true Muslims. but are only pawns to the hands of the powerful clerics and true Muslims,
> 
> and I thought the Roman Catholics were the only ones crazy.



Well i guess u only had intention to troll as your post simply doesn't make much sense and is hilariously irrelevant to my post u quoted.


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## kobiraaz

i need to know what is devanagari? Never heard of that. Whats the difference between Devanagari and Brahmi script ? 

no i dont support changing current state of Bengali Language. Arabic needs to be added as a compulsory subject beside Bangla and English.

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## The Snow Queen

kobiraaz said:


> i need to know what is devanagari? Never heard of that. Whats the difference between Devanagari and Brahmi script ?
> no i dont support changing current state of Bengali Language. Arabic needs to be added as a compulsory subject beside Bangla and English.



I know, Devanagari is the Hindi script and I made a mistake. But I can't change the title anymore...


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## kobiraaz

The Snow Queen said:


> I know, Devanagari is the Hindi script and I made a mistake. But I can't change the title anymore...



okay.. But This thread is a complete waste of time. Its not possible to touch Bengali script ... Bangladeshis are indoctrinated to resist such attempt.. It is true that Bengali Medium students hate to write bengali for 3 hours ... But they love the language ... If you really want to switch from Brahmi Script - You will have to undo the indoctrination by years of Propaganda backed by research to convince people -- It will only become possible if a revolutionary party seize power.....

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## Anubis

The Snow Queen said:


> Still better than major fish and bhaat eating West Bengalis!
> 
> 
> 
> Will you stop labelling everyone as extremists! Do you really know what extremist really mean!?
> 
> Well, I have two Indian friends on facebook, one is a Hindu and another one is a Sheik. And they are very good friends actually; and we admin a Ricardo Kaka fan group and it is a huge group! So I talked with my Hindu friend and I said where he thinks I am from? And he said I am from Afghanistan or Bangladesh. And I said "Why so!?" And he said because I act like a typical Muslim, I don't know what he meant by that... I asked him, "Why not Pakistan or India?" He says because I am different from Pakistani or an India Muslim girl. I asked "How?" He replied that Pakistani girls are different, and Indian Muslims are proud and think highly of themselves. And then he said I am a unique person and that I am really sweet!
> 
> Listen I am not racist or prejudiced. I don't mind any people regardless of religion or colour. But now, I just wanted an opinion of you all about the Bengali script concerning Bangladesh.
> 
> 
> 
> Do not get me wrapped up with your misogynistic sexist views. Don't talk with me.


Where did I say anything remotely misogynistic or sexist in my statements??Man(pseudo-lady) your reasoning skills are as horrible as your comprehension skills.....at least you learnt two new words today.....you can thank me later!



DRAY said:


> Now you are being harsh on a sweet 17 year old girl, young people like her are the future of the great country presently known as Bangladesh, and she has a very legitimate point here. You are too old and too few to resist the popular demand of the young citizens of BD, and if you still want to stick to that pagan Bengali language, literature, and cultural thingy, then go and mingle with those murtard West Bengalis.


Its a freakin DUDE....btw could you tell him(her..or...it) that he is an *EXTREMIST *because he holds *EXTREMELY *stupid views??

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## The Snow Queen

kobiraaz said:


> okay.. But This thread is a complete waste of time. Its not possible to touch Bengali script ... Bangladeshis are indoctrinated to resist such attempt.. It is true that Bengali Medium students hate to write bengali for 3 hours ... But they love the language ... If you really want to switch from Brahmi Script - You will have to undo the indoctrination by years of Propaganda backed by research to convince people -- It will only become possible if a revolutionary party seize power.....



Well, it doesn't really matter anymore. And there are some Islamic schools out there but they are not Madrasa. I think, they might teach Arabic and all those stuff.



Anubis said:


> Where did I say anything remotely misogynistic or sexist in my statements??Man(pseudo-lady) your reasoning skills are as horrible as your comprehension skills.....at least you learnt two new words today.....you can thank me later!



Because you are misogynistic and don't appreciate anyone who has different views than yours. Are you a Scorpio? I think it's Scropio/Sagitarius Cusp in your case, and I bet your Mars, Moon or Rising sign is also Scorpio or a Taurus? And so that's why you are so persistent, stubborn and misogynistic, yeah Scorpios are known for being secretive, unyielding, very revengeful, suspicious, intense, manipulative, observant. Sagittarius is great because they are a Mutable Fire sign and they are adventurous, optimistic, philosophical, generous, careless, superficial, straightforward. But you are more like a Scorpio as you appear to be. And Scorpio is a Fixed Water sign and icy cold and different from other Water signs like Cancer and Pisces who are emotional and intuitive, Scorpios too are like that because they are Water signs and shares similarities but sometimes in Scorpios case, it gets extreme but they can keep things in secret. Scorpios along with Capricorn are one of the most negative signs in the Zodiac. Even in Tarot Scorpio and Capricorn are represented by Death and The Devil, respectively. Many people don't like Scorpios including me because they are too serious and always has this gloomy aura while Capricorn are quite depressing and you're very depressing too. Perhaps you have Capricorn in your chart? I think your Birth Chart is Water or Earth signs dominated and so that means it's all Yin, introverted, taking things personally etc. All these are based on stereotypes but somewhat true... And I don't know you so don't have to take it seriously. But you are really dreary, depressing and obsessive, I must say.

And who gave you the permission to check my newsfeed before!? Stalker and a creep!


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## my2cents

kobiraaz said:


> i need to know what is devanagari? Never heard of that. Whats the difference between Devanagari and Brahmi script ?
> 
> no i dont support changing current state of Bengali Language. Arabic needs to be added as a compulsory subject beside Bangla and English.



One sensible BDian on PDF....


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## khair_ctg

takeiteasy said:


> still basically Benglis; since British ruled you, does that makes you all English? you are generally Hindu converts with Bengali/Indic culture. even if Muslims, your culture surely seems Bengali. seeking Arab/Persian/Afghan heritage both in culture and blood shows inferiority complex. Accept your culture, that's anytime better than foreign cultures that you want to believe yours.


we are culturally and ethnically Muslims of East Bengal. and when you are addressing me as "you" it means you are addressing a Bangladeshi. that does not make me a Bengali Muslim. it could be i am a non-Bengali Muslim or even a Chakma. the Muslim culture (including an indo-aryan language written in nastaliq script) is till partly indic.

telling subcontinental Muslims to leave any Arabic-Persian cultural influences they have is like telling Anglo-Indians to leave all the English influences in them. this is what Hindu or Dharmic extremism is all about - a strange intolerance of Muslims and other people who happen to have non-Indic or non-Dharmic roots



my2cents said:


> One sensible BDian on PDF....


he still supports greater role of Arabic language. so he is essentially taking an indirect route to what OP suggested. a greater role of the Arabic language in Bangladesh - is that fine with you, Mr. overtly-concerned-with-Muslims?

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## khair_ctg

kobiraaz said:


> i need to know what is devanagari?





The Snow Queen said:


> I know, Devanagari is the Hindi script and I made a mistake. But I can't change the title anymore...



devanagari is the script that Hindi and almost all other Indo-Aryan languages (like Bengali, Punjabi, Gujarati, etc.) are written in by non-Muslims. it has been the most widely used script for writing Sanskrit-derived languages. devanagari is in a different group from the Dravidiyan languages like Telugu and Tamil

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## Mirzah

Bad idea, changing Bangla script is impossible, majority of Bangladeshi Bangalis will reject it. There is no political support for it anyway. Bangla script is fine the way it is.
Bangali Muslims already learn Arabic separately to read the Holy Quran, so who needs perso-arabic alphabet khichdi? Completely unnecessary

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## khair_ctg

Mirzah said:


> Bad idea, changing Bangla script is impossible, majority of Bangladeshi Bangalis will reject it. There is no political support for it anyway. Bangla script is fine the way it is.
> Bangali Muslims already learn Arabic separately to read the Holy Quran, so who needs perso-arabic alphabet khichdi? Completely unnecessary


changing the way of writing (at least on large scale) does not depend on fleeting sentiments. the current formal/mainstream way of writing Bangla is adopted from Hindus. besides that, the Muslims no longer even write Farsi and Urdu any more. as a result, the inroads that Hindu culture, politics, philosophy, prose, poetry, epics have made into the Muslim society and replaced Muslim practises is mind-boggling. i tried to explain my take on this process very briefly here: Musalmani Bangla and its transformation

and besides, the regular people can write Bangla in the Nastaliq script if they want to any time. some plausibly have already been doing so

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## Rajaraja Chola

baajey said:


> exactly......same with chennai and kolkata......
> old madras n calcutta were more cooler than the indegenous names.



Madras was a rather modern name. The old name was exactly" Chennapattinam" a sleepy fishing town, now a metropolis.

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## khair_ctg

baajey said:


> Dhaka : Khule-aam-a-baad


well Dhaka did have a Muslim name or a name used by historical Muslim administrators. why did your tolerant Hindu zamindars decide to change it?


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## fallstuff

The Snow Queen said:


> Should the people of Bangladesh really do away with Devanagari script of Bangla and go for Arabic/Persian script? To Islamise our Language and bring back our real roots of East Bengal? The way our forefathers used to write and maybe talk?
> 
> I have an idea that our first initiative should be to make a Petition. And perhaps, it is a small step to a big change! We want your opinions of all the people here, and then decide if we will make this Petition.
> 
> By the way, I myself cannot make this petition because I am scared to go for this all by myself and I don't know much about the History as some of you here knows... We need someone who is wise, intelligent and knowledgeable to make this Petition for us and can add it to the description of the Petition, which will be able to convince most people to sign.
> 
> I think Change.org and GoPetition are a good places to start.
> 
> Change.org - The world's platform for change
> 
> Petition Templates, Samples & Examples | GoPetition
> 
> @kalu_miah @MBI Munshi @aazidane @khair_ctg @Saiful Islam @Zahur Ahmed Chowdhury @kobiraaz
> 
> I probably have noticed some you guys here being huge supporters of this movement. Should we first start with a Petition?


 

Create A Petition | We the People: Your Voice in Our Government


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## INDIC

khair_ctg said:


> well Dhaka did have a Muslim name or a name used by historical Muslim administrators. why did your tolerant Hindu zamindars decide to change it?



Change the name and get rid of evil yindoo name as soon as possible.

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## Moander

The Snow Queen said:


> Should the people of Bangladesh really do away with Devanagari script of Bangla and go for Arabic/Persian script? To Islamise our Language and bring back our real roots of East Bengal? The way our forefathers used to write and maybe talk?
> 
> I have an idea that our first initiative should be to make a Petition. And perhaps, it is a small step to a big change! We want your opinions of all the people here, and then decide if we will make this Petition.
> 
> By the way, I myself cannot make this petition because I am scared to go for this all by myself and I don't know much about the History as some of you here knows... We need someone who is wise, intelligent and knowledgeable to make this Petition for us and can add it to the description of the Petition, which will be able to convince most people to sign.
> 
> I think Change.org and GoPetition are a good places to start.
> 
> Change.org - The world's platform for change
> 
> Petition Templates, Samples & Examples | GoPetition
> 
> @kalu_miah @MBI Munshi @aazidane @khair_ctg @Saiful Islam @Zahur Ahmed Chowdhury @kobiraaz
> 
> I probably have noticed some you guys here being huge supporters of this movement. Should we first start with a Petition?


Is there any Hindu language or is there a script that is not created by Allah? Do you know before our prophet Muhammad (_Sm_), Arabic was used by idol worshiper and there were thousand of poems glorifying idols? Allah didn't make any language or script Haram, so why a poor country like Bangladesh should spent millions of dollars when we can use the same fund to help the poor? Do you have any knowledge about Islam? Is it Islamic way to bicker over a matter like script which isn't even Haram when we still need to borrow or beg money from non Muslim countries? AS LONG AS MUSLIM LIKE YOU EXISTS THE WHOLE UMMAH WILL SUFFER.

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## The Snow Queen

Moander said:


> Is there any Hindu language or is there a script that is not created by Allah? Do you know before our prophet Muhammad (Sm), Arabic was used by idol worshiper and there were thousand of poems glorifying idols? Allah didn't make any language or script Haram, so why a poor country like Bangladesh should spent millions of dollars when we can use the same fund to help the poor? Do you have any knowledge about Islam? Is it Islamic way to bicker over a matter like script which isn't even Haram when we still need to borrow or beg money from non Muslim countries? AS LONG AS MUSLIM LIKE YOU EXISTS THE WHOLE UMMAH WILL SUFFER.



We want Nastaliq (Persian) script not Naskh script. Nastaliq is used by all the Central Asian countries including Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran uses it. Naskh (Arabic) is used by Middle East and South East Asian countries like Indonesia, Brunei, Malasia who uses Jawi script which is Malay language in Arabic script. Even Turkey uses Naskh script! We might be the only Muslim country in the World uses a script made by Mushriks which is even lower than Kafirs so what's to be proud of it? 

If all the Muslim countries can use Arabic and Persian scripts then why can't we? Instead we fall into the hands of the evil Mushriks! If you want to be slaves to the Hindus and Brahimins then be my guest.

Just look how Indians think of Bangladesh:
India working to make Bangladesh a desert | Page 41

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## newdelhinsa

Why not, it should be changed ASAP.

The dividend of having save this great language in its original script will be India's, like we have Punjabi. A linguistic homogeneous Human race will be intellectually dumb who will eventually find more ways to not work hard on many other equities it has inherited from a civilizational continuity. 

Look what is happening with Pakistanis, who are trying hard to appropriate old civilizations but have not traits left in practise other than few scattered muddy bricks. On the other hand Indians appreciate the same with ease and without any guilt; with Pakistanis exasperating helplessly.

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## The Snow Queen

newdelhinsa said:


> Why not, it should be changed ASAP.
> The dividend of having save this great language in its original script will be India's, like we have Punjabi. A linguistic homogeneous Human race will be intellectually dumb who will eventually find more ways to not work hard on many other equities it has inherited from a civilizational continuity.
> Look what is happening with Pakistanis, who are trying hard to appropriate old civilizations but have not traits left in practise other than few scattered muddy bricks. On the other hand Indians appreciate the same with ease and without any guilt; with Pakistanis exasperating helplessly.



Old civilization? I have never read anything that is related to old civilization in Bangle. Maybe because the Bangla history started only 200 years ago after the Kafir English and Mushrik Brahmins made the Bangla script and everything started after that.

OHHH RIIIGHTT!! How did I forget about Punjab!!?? Punjab is divided between India and Pakistan! But in Pakistan's Punjab province they use Shamukhi which is Nastaliq script and in Indian Punjab province they use Gurmukhi which is Brahmic script! So if Bengal is divided between India and Bangladesh then why the hell did we decided to get along with the shitty Hindu Brahmic script!!?

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## notsuperstitious

The Snow Queen said:


> We need someone who is wise, intelligent and knowledgeable to make this Petition for us and can add it to the description of the Petition, which will be able to convince most people to sign.



Try some other BD forum and all the best mate.



Saiful Islam said:


> *Madaris* in Bangladesh are producing top Mawlana and Hafiz who are going the Gulf.



That explains a lot!

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## newdelhinsa

The Snow Queen said:


> Old civilization? I have never read anything that is related to old civilization in Bangle. Maybe because the Bangla history started only 200 years ago after the Kafir English and Mushrik Brahmins made the Bangla script and everything started after that.
> 
> OHHH RIIIGHTT!! How did I forget about Punjab!!?? Punjab is divided between India and Pakistan! But in Pakistan;s Punjab province they use Shamukhi which is Nastaliq script and in Indian Punjab province they use Gurmukhi which is Brahmic script! So if Bengal is divided between India and Bangladesh then why the hell did we decided to get along with the shitty Hindu Brahmic script!!?



I will be last person to let any dirty mulla speak Indian native languages developed by Hindus.

So you are messing with wrong person here.

Civilization continuity is a counter intuitive science for illiterate like you, so don't go into that territory or ask me questions to spoon feed you about Bangladesh's connect, if there is any with the same. I have voted yes that Bangladeshi mulla should change the script; should rather kill this language and adopt Arabic.

On Punjabi: It is dead in Pakistan if you do not know, may be you do know, because you are a Pakistani with BD flag. May be you did wikipedia search and came with half informed diatribe to quote me for sake of quoting.

Shahi mukhi is nothing but Punjabi sounds written into urdu. Go a sell this snake oil to someone else that Punjabi is preserved by Pakistan rather it has been by Indian Punjab and Punjabis, who are practising it as an official language in its original from it was developed, not like Shahi mukhi which was later appropriated by Muslims suffering with identity crisis.

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## Moander

The Snow Queen said:


> We want Nastaliq (Persian) script not Naskh script. Nastaliq is used by all the Central Asian countries including Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran uses it. Naskh (Arabic) is used by Middle East and South East Asian countries like Indonesia, Brunei, Malasia who uses Jawi script which is Malay language in Arabic script. Even Turkey uses Naskh script! We might be the only Muslim country in the World uses a script made by Mushriks which is even lower than Kafirs so what's to be proud of it?
> 
> If all the Muslim countries can use Arabic and Persian scripts then why can't we? Instead we fall into the hands of the evil Mushriks! If you want to be slaves to the Hindus and Brahimins then be my guest.
> 
> Just look how Indians think of Bangladesh:
> India working to make Bangladesh a desert | Page 41


You didn't answer my questions, please answer them first. As for your question, My Iman isn't that fragile that using a script would shatter it. Besides Islam flourish using Bengali so why would we want to create fitna? Only to satisfy some people inferiority complex? Does language and script have religion? Did Allah created new language for Qur'an or used the language of the Mushriks so that they understand it better?


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## The Snow Queen

Moander said:


> You didn't answer my questions, please answer them first. As for your question, My Iman isn't that fragile that using a script would shatter it. Besides Islam flourish using Bengali so why would we want to create fitna? Only to satisfy some people inferiority complex? Does language and script have religion? Did Allah created new language for Qur'an or used the language of the Mushriks so that they understand it better?



Because our Prophet Muhammad came from those lands and used that language to write Quran and that's why all Muslims countries uses it. We should do the same too, eventually. You think the other Muslims countries didn't have a script of their own? They did but they decided to follow a sunnah which was done by our Prophet.

@newdelhinsa a Because we don't care about the original script. The language will remain but just want an Islamic script which is appropriate for Muslims only. And this won't affect West Bengal just as Punjab isn't effected. And I disagree that changing script has identity crisis issues because does other Muslim countries faces identity issues by following this Sunnah? For us no. Stop exaggerating and calling everyone Mullahs, it's evident Indians are extremely anti Islam.


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## Moander

The Snow Queen said:


> Because our Prophet Muhammad came from those lands and used that language to write Quran and that's why all Muslims countries uses it. We should do the same too, eventually. You think the other Muslims countries didn't have a script of their own? They did but they decided to follow a sunnah which was done by our Prophet.



Wow, after 1400 years you came up with that Hadith . Did Allah and Prophet Muhammad (SM) ever said to abolish all the language and script except Arabic?


Yo Kobiraaz long time no c


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## JohnyBoy

The Snow Queen said:


> Old civilization? I have never read anything that is related to old civilization in Bangle. Maybe because the Bangla history started only 200 years ago after the Kafir English and Mushrik Brahmins made the Bangla script and everything started after that.
> 
> OHHH RIIIGHTT!! How did I forget about Punjab!!?? Punjab is divided between India and Pakistan! But in Pakistan's Punjab province they use Shamukhi which is Nastaliq script and in Indian Punjab province they use Gurmukhi which is Brahmic script! So if Bengal is divided between India and Bangladesh then why the hell did we decided to get along with the shitty Hindu Brahmic script!!?


 
I dont understand the logic of your discussion, You wanna get rid of your scripts and have an Islamiazed bangla just to be closer to Islam?? Is not the Quran translated in Bangla so you can read? Countries like Indonesia and Malaysia who have muslim majorities do not hold such inferiority, they have english as their script and quite a few of their words are from Sanskrit. The"malays: who are 99.9% sunnis are proudly known as "Bhumiputras" AKA son of soil (as in Sanskrit). these countries have moved leaps ahead and have very progressive status quo. Please move on from these ideologies and work towards a progressive state.

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## Anubis

The Snow Queen said:


> Well, it doesn't really matter anymore. And there are some Islamic schools out there but they are not Madrasa. I think, they might teach Arabic and all those stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> Because you are misogynistic and don't appreciate anyone who has different views than yours. Are you a Scorpio? I think it's Scropio/Sagitarius Cusp in your case, and I bet your Mars, Moon or Rising sign is also Scorpio or a Taurus? And so that's why you are so persistent, stubborn and misogynistic, yeah Scorpios are known for being secretive, unyielding, very revengeful, suspicious, intense, manipulative, observant. Sagittarius is great because they are a Mutable Fire sign and they are adventurous, optimistic, philosophical, generous, careless, superficial, straightforward. But you are more like a Scorpio as you appear to be. And Scorpio is a Fixed Water sign and icy cold and different from other Water signs like Cancer and Pisces who are emotional and intuitive, Scorpios too are like that because they are Water signs and shares similarities but sometimes in Scorpios case, it gets extreme but they can keep things in secret. Scorpios along with Capricorn are one of the most negative signs in the Zodiac. Even in Tarot Scorpio and Capricorn are represented by Death and The Devil, respectively. Many people don't like Scorpios including me because they are too serious and always has this gloomy aura while Capricorn are quite depressing and you're very depressing too. Perhaps you have Capricorn in your chart? I think your Birth Chart is Water or Earth signs dominated and so that means it's all Yin, introverted, taking things personally etc. All these are based on stereotypes but somewhat true... And I don't know you so don't have to take it seriously. But you are really dreary, depressing and obsessive, I must say.
> 
> And who gave you the permission to check my newsfeed before!? Stalker and a creep!



Its the freakin internet there's a reason you have news feed....it is there for others to check......and what's with all this zodiac crap....its the 21st century......grow up and read a science book......now wonder you thought we use Devnagari script you....I don't have any problem with people with different views....I have a lot of problem with ignorant people....and you seem to fit the bill perfectly!

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## JohnyBoy

Anubis said:


> Its the freakin internet there's a reason you have news feed....it is there for others to check......and what's with all this zodiac crap....its the 21st century......grow up and read a science book......now wonder you thought we use Devnagari script you....I don't have any problem with people with different views....I have a lot of problem with ignorant people....and you seem to fit the bill perfectly!


 

I really think most people before they wanna take a crap start their new posts on such illogical explicit thoughts.


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## scholseys

The Snow Queen said:


> Because our Prophet Muhammad came from those lands and used that language to write Quran and that's why all Muslims countries uses it. We should do the same too, eventually. You think the other Muslims countries didn't have a script of their own? They did but they decided to follow a sunnah which was done by our Prophet.
> 
> @newdelhinsa a Because we don't care about the original script. The language will remain but just want an Islamic script which is appropriate for Muslims only. And this won't affect West Bengal just as Punjab isn't effected. And I disagree that changing script has identity crisis issues because does other Muslim countries faces identity issues by following this Sunnah? For us no. Stop exaggerating and calling everyone Mullahs, it's evident Indians are extremely anti Islam.


did you go to scholastica?


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## The Snow Queen

Moander said:


> Wow, after 1400 years you came up with that Hadith . Did Allah and Prophet Muhammad (SM) ever said to abolish all the language and script except Arabic?



Well, all the Kafirs and their idols and their way of life were abolished. I heard, in the day of Judgement and after we die we are all going to speak in Arabic because the Quran is written in that language. I am not sure but I heard that.

Read this thread: Musalmani Bangla and its transformation

@JohnyBoy You are probably a South Indain Tamil living in Malaysia. Don't you Indians have anything better to do? Rather then trying to act with that "holy art thou" attitude and meddling with everyone's affairs while you people are one of the most hypocritical people in the World. No wonder why no one likes you people and no doubt anything like Caste system, Suti and all other crazy superstitious stuff like the Bindi etc cannot made be made anyone but only Indians.. Just leave... I tired explaining this to everyone and I won't waste my time doing the same thing over and over again!! Nnhh!!

@Anubis I don't believe in astrology or tarot cards but I do like them and learn about them and I use them but not for serious, just for fun and nothing more......... I made a mistake about the Devanagari script but I cannot change the title anymore because it won't lets me, it's too late...
How is checking anyone's newsfeed normal except for who ever's newsfeed it is!? Who waste's their time checking other people's newsfeed and history? Unless that person is a stalker. You are not suppose to check other people's newsfeed and I am not ignorant and certainly do not invade other people's privacy.


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## livingdead

I support this, change the script to arabic so that it will be easy to read everything including holybooks. Dont have to learn two scripts unnecessarily.
Also pakistanis cant take pride in having urdu as more muslim language coz you got the original.
Joy bangla. @The Snow Queen

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## The Snow Queen

aazidane said:


> did you go to scholastica?



I won't say, because someone in this forum said not to reveal personal information too much, because it is not safe...


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## scholseys

The Snow Queen said:


> I won't say, because someone in this forum said not to reveal personal information too much, because it is not safe...


How did a little girl as yourself develop such right wing thoughts?


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## nForce

Bengali has Devanagari script?


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## Dem!god

*please change the location of Bangladesh from bay of Bengal to Arabian peninsula......*
that will make the transformation complete.....

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## anonymus

hinduguy said:


> I support this, change the script to arabic so that it will be easy to read everything including holybooks. Dont have to learn two scripts unnecessarily.
> Also pakistanis cant take pride in having urdu as more muslim language coz you got the original.
> Joy bangla. @The Snow Queen




The only problem is that if Bangla's just change their script, they would still be unable to comprehend their holy book.

For complete shuddhikaran, they should throw out Bengali and replace it with Arabic proper.

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## livingdead

anonymus said:


> The only problem is that if Bangla's just change their script, they would still be unable to comprehend their holy book.
> 
> For complete shuddhikaran, they should throw out Bengali and replace it with Arabic proper.


people just want to read/recite them not understand.. I am being practical, this is usuful for ordinary folks like fishermen, farmers and housewives.. we need this change.

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## nForce

anonymus said:


> The only problem is that if Bangla's just change their script, they would still be unable to comprehend their holy book.
> 
> For complete shuddhikaran, they should throw out Bengali and replace it with Arabic proper.



Interesting thought...I just wonder how the actual Arabs will take it..


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## newdelhinsa

The Snow Queen said:


> @newdelhinsa a Because we don't care about the original script. The language will remain but just want an Islamic script which is appropriate for Muslims only. And this won't affect West Bengal just as Punjab isn't effected. And I disagree that changing script has identity crisis issues because does other Muslim countries faces identity issues by following this Sunnah? For us no. Stop exaggerating and calling everyone Mullahs, it's evident Indians are extremely* anti Islam*.



Look who is talking, a person who calls his own mother tongue as shit influenced by Hindus and preach me with straight face that I am anti Islam. Everyone knows your problem with your own mother tongue is its any association with Hindus or Hinduism.

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## JohnyBoy

The Snow Queen said:


> Well, all the Kafirs and their idols and their way of life were abolished. I heard, in the day of Judgement and after we die we are all going to speak in Arabic because the Quran is written in that language. I am not sure but I heard that.
> 
> Read this thread: Musalmani Bangla and its transformation
> 
> @JohnyBoy You are probably a South Indain Tamil living in Malaysia. Don't you Indians have anything better to do? Rather then trying to act with that "holy art thou" attitude and meddling with everyone's affairs while you people are one of the most hypocritical people in the World. No wonder why no one likes you people and no doubt anything like Caste system, Suti and all other crazy superstitious stuff like the Bindi etc cannot made be made anyone but only Indians.. Just leave... I tired explaining this to everyone and I won't waste my time doing the same thing over and over again!! Nnhh!!
> 
> @Anubis I don't believe in astrology or tarot cards but I do like them and learn about them and I use them but not for serious, just for fun and nothing more......... I made a mistake about the Devanagari script but I cannot change the title anymore because it won't lets me, it's too late...
> How is checking anyone's newsfeed normal except for who ever's newsfeed it is!? Who waste's their time checking other people's newsfeed and history? Unless that person is a stalker. You are not suppose to check other people's newsfeed and I am not ignorant and certainly do not invade other people's privacy.


 

Firsly, Let me introduce myself. I am not a Malaysian Indian... I am from Bangalore, India working in Malaysia at the moment.

Secondly, Well on this very forum most of us have read your views and likewise I have put forward my comments too like everyone , not sure why did you have to come back to me with such harsh rants, such as these : * "Don't you Indians have anything better to do? Rather then trying to act with that "holy art thou" attitude and meddling with everyone's affairs while you people are one of the most hypocritical people in the World. No wonder why no one likes you people and no doubt anything like Caste system." *If you oppose my views than kindly put forward your opinions so it can make things very clear and understandable. However I am still looking for a better factual response than this.

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## Anubis

The Snow Queen said:


> Well, all the Kafirs and their idols and their way of life were abolished. I heard, in the day of Judgement and after we die we are all going to speak in Arabic because the Quran is written in that language. I am not sure but I heard that.
> 
> Read this thread: Musalmani Bangla and its transformation
> 
> @JohnyBoy You are probably a South Indain Tamil living in Malaysia. Don't you Indians have anything better to do? Rather then trying to act with that "holy art thou" attitude and meddling with everyone's affairs while you people are one of the most hypocritical people in the World. No wonder why no one likes you people and no doubt anything like Caste system, Suti and all other crazy superstitious stuff like the Bindi etc cannot made be made anyone but only Indians.. Just leave... I tired explaining this to everyone and I won't waste my time doing the same thing over and over again!! Nnhh!!
> 
> @Anubis I don't believe in astrology or tarot cards but I do like them and learn about them and I use them but not for serious, just for fun and nothing more......... I made a mistake about the Devanagari script but I cannot change the title anymore because it won't lets me, it's too late...
> How is checking anyone's newsfeed normal except for who ever's newsfeed it is!? Who waste's their time checking other people's newsfeed and history? Unless that person is a stalker. You are not suppose to check other people's newsfeed and I am not ignorant and certainly do not invade other people's privacy.




Your posts and activity are PUBLIC for the PUBLIC to see....so they can see your political leanings...your past views......I am SUPPOSED TO CHECK THE LEANINGS OF A PERSON I AM RESPONDING TO IN A FORUM.....specially a person whom I am not familiar with......You are not only ignorant but also extremely childish with your reasoning skills.

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## anonymus

nForce said:


> Interesting thought...I just wonder how the actual Arabs will take it..




Like this







​

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## nForce

anonymus said:


> Like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​



Not drawing inference from this video, but people should believe in what they are, they should not forget their own roots, for those who do, their downfall is imminent.I don't need any religious scripture to tell me that.

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## The Snow Queen

aazidane said:


> How did a little girl as yourself develop such right wing thoughts?



Why do you want to know about which school I am from? I am from Mastermind not Scholastica.



anonymus said:


> The only problem is that if Bangla's just change their script, they would still be unable to comprehend their holy book.
> For complete shuddhikaran, they should throw out Bengali and replace it with Arabic proper.



This script changing is not something that can be done overnight... We first have to introduce Arabic and Persian Literature into the school curriculum.



Anubis said:


> Your posts and activity are PUBLIC for the PUBLIC to see....so they can see your political leanings...your past views......I am SUPPOSED TO CHECK THE LEANINGS OF A PERSON I AM RESPONDING TO IN A FORUM.....specially a person whom I am not familiar with......You are not only ignorant but also extremely childish with your reasoning skills.



Can you still see my newsfeed?



JohnyBoy said:


> Firsly, Let me introduce myself. I am not a Malaysian Indian... I am from Bangalore, India working in Malaysia at the moment.
> Secondly, Well on this very forum most of us have read your views and likewise I have put forward my comments too like everyone , not sure why did you have to come back to me with such harsh rants, such as these : "Don't you Indians have anything better to do? Rather then trying to act with that "holy art thou" attitude and meddling with everyone's affairs while you people are one of the most hypocritical people in the World. No wonder why no one likes you people and no doubt anything like Caste system." If you oppose my views than kindly put forward your opinions so it can make things very clear and understandable. However I am still looking for a better factual response than this.



I am sorry I didn't mean it. But all the other Indians are attacking me and I am losing out of words. What am I supposed to do back away? Why are they so concerned with whatever we do?


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## scrumpy

The Snow Queen said:


> We want Nastaliq (Persian) script not Naskh script. Nastaliq is used by all the Central Asian countries including Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran uses it. Naskh (Arabic) is used by Middle East and South East Asian countries like Indonesia, Brunei, Malasia who uses Jawi script which is Malay language in Arabic script. Even Turkey uses Naskh script! We might be the only Muslim country in the World uses a script made by Mushriks which is even lower than Kafirs so what's to be proud of it?
> 
> If all the Muslim countries can use Arabic and Persian scripts then why can't we? Instead we fall into the hands of the evil Mushriks! If you want to be slaves to the Hindus and Brahimins then be my guest.
> 
> Just look how Indians think of Bangladesh:
> India working to make Bangladesh a desert | Page 41



Official Indonesian, Malaysian and Turkish use scripts based on the Latin script.


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## DRaisinHerald

baajey said:


> OHHH RIIIGHTT!! How did I forget about Punjab!!?? Punjab is divided between India and Pakistan! But in Pakistan's Punjab province they use Shamukhi which is Nastaliq script and in Indian Punjab province they use Gurmukhi which is Brahmic script! So if Bengal is divided between India and Bangladesh then why the hell did we decided to get along with the shitty Hindu Brahmic script!!?



The tradition of Punjabi language literature began only in the 12 or 13th century around Baba Farid's time. Punjabi didn't have a standardized script before that, as most people were illiterate. So the primary script used to write the language among the few educated became Nastaliq (later Shahmukhi). Since the inception of Sikhism, Gurmukhi began to be used as well. So in Punjabi's case, the Nastaliq script was already well established before the other variant came into the picture. Similar case with Urdu, where Nastaliq was being used to write it until Devanagari was later introduced.

Bengali on the other hasn't been written with a script other than what you currently utilize. You should just keep it.

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## Dem!god

The Snow Queen said:


> Why do you want to know about which school I am from? I am from Mastermind not Scholastica.
> 
> 
> 
> This script changing is not something that can be done overnight... We first have to introduce Arabic and Persian Literature into the school curriculum.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you still see my newsfeed?
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry I didn't mean it. But all the other Indians are attacking me and I am losing out of words. What am I supposed to do back away? Why are they so concerned with whatever we do?


so, when is this going to happen.....
u in favor of arabic mutation too......


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## JohnyBoy

The Snow Queen said:


> Why do you want to know about which school I am from? I am from Mastermind not Scholastica.
> 
> 
> 
> This script changing is not something that can be done overnight... We first have to introduce Arabic and Persian Literature into the school curriculum.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you still see my newsfeed?
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry I didn't mean it. But all the other Indians are attacking me and I am losing out of words. What am I supposed to do back away? Why are they so concerned with whatever we do?


 
Apologies accepted... Well most Indians are just just trying to tell you that Bangladeshi'sculture, language and its script is beautiful and there is no reason for its modification. Well you can certainly justify and stand by your views and opinions unless you come up with your conscious and factual responses...cheers

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## The Snow Queen

nForce said:


> Not drawing inference from this video, but people should believe in what they are, they should not forget their own roots, for those who do, their downfall is imminent.I don't need any religious scripture to tell me that.



Why the hell do you care whatever we do!? For Hindus culture matters, but for Muslims religion comes first and culture and all other stuff comes second. Get that properly into your head! We are Muslims and for us religion is the most important! After you die is Allah is not going to see where ever the hell you came from but only your Iman! And all these culture stuff means nothing after death! And having a Hinduidised culture is not benefiting us Muslims!

LOL I think you believe Bangladeshis culture is actually Hindu type but it is NOT! We are perfectly Muslims except that some of us don't like Pohela Boishak and so many Hindu writers and poets in Bangla Literature. Other than that we are absolutely fine with our Islamic way of life. And we don't do pooja at all, wear huge red dots and sarees and what..? Dhotis and....? I don't know... What other stuff do you all do?

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## Moander

The Snow Queen said:


> Well, all the Kafirs and their idols and their way of life were abolished. I heard, in the day of Judgement and after we die we are all going to speak in Arabic because the Quran is written in that language. I am not sure but I heard that.
> 
> Read this thread: Musalmani Bangla and its transformation



So, you want to abolish Bangla script based on something you heard? Please do some study on Islam before discussing it. Few of my cousins were from scholastica and they have poor knowledge about Islam because if i am not mistaken our English medium school doesn't have Islamic studies.

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## Dem!god

anonymus said:


> Like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


WTF...did i just saw.....
damn.. no words to explain this....

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## The Snow Queen

Moander said:


> So, you want to abolish Bangla script based on something you heard? Please do some study on Islam before discussing it. Few of my cousin were from scholastica and they have poor knowledge about Islam because if i am not mistaken our english medium don't have Islamic studies.



I had Islamic studies!!! I mean are you kidding me? And our Islamic teacher was the most nicest, kindest and the best teacher I have ever met! She is my favourite teacher of all time! Because she was so forgiving, peaceful and compassionate! I also come from a very religious family! My Uncle especially, he is extremely strict! And my mom won't spare me at all if I miss a single namaaz prayer!

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## Airboss786

The Snow Queen said:


> We want Nastaliq (Persian) script not Naskh script. Nastaliq is used by all the Central Asian countries including Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran uses it. Naskh (Arabic) is used by Middle East and South East Asian countries like Indonesia, Brunei, Malasia who uses Jawi script which is Malay language in Arabic script. Even Turkey uses Naskh script! We might be the only Muslim country in the World uses a script made by Mushriks which is even lower than Kafirs so what's to be proud of it?
> 
> If all the Muslim countries can use Arabic and Persian scripts then why can't we? Instead we fall into the hands of the evil Mushriks! If you want to be slaves to the Hindus and Brahimins then be my guest.
> 
> Just look how Indians think of Bangladesh:
> India working to make Bangladesh a desert | Page 41



_*Does Turkey use it?! Get your 'fact's right?!*_


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## anonymus

The Snow Queen said:


> Why the hell do you care whatever we do!? For Hindus culture matters, but for Muslims religion comes first and culture and all other stuff comes second. Get that properly into your head! We are Muslims and for us religion is the most important! After you die is Allah is not going to see where ever the hell you came from but only your Iman! And all these culture stuff means nothing after death! And having a Hinduidised culture is not benefiting us Muslims!



What if you get him rather than allah!


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## nForce

The Snow Queen said:


> Why the hell do you care whatever we do!? For Hindus culture matters, but for Muslims religion comes first and culture and all other stuff comes second. Get that properly into your head! We are Muslims and for us religion is the most important! After you die is Allah is not going to see where ever the hell you came from but only your Iman! And all these culture stuff means nothing after death! And having a Hinduidised culture is not benefiting us Muslims!
> 
> LOL I think you believe Bangladeshis culture is actually Hindu type but it is NOT! We are perfectly Muslims except that some of us don't like Pohela Boishak and so many Hindu writers and poets in Bangla Literature. Other than that we are absolutely fine with our Islamic way of life. And we don't do pooja at all, wear huge red dots and sarees and what..? Dhotis and....? I don't know... What other stuff do you all do?



Okay.. you have my attention for sometime...

Firstly, people will post their opinions in open forums irrespective to whether you like it or not.You want something more discreet, you should choose some other platform..

Secondly,I didn't find anything substantial in your post which will urge me to go through your other posts, but then this post of yours tells me that you are kind of obsessed with what happens to you after death..Well what happens to you while you are alive ? And how does a change of some script of some language help you before or after death?

Whatever..for scholars, there is an excellent read, written by Swami Abhedananda, titled, "Life beyond Death", in its English translation..You don't go through it, might be too much to take as of now...

Thirdly,in any case, you are absolutely free to do whatever you like, nobody is stopping you, but I might just have to ask, while you ask not to be abused for your choices and the religion you practice, you don't have any problem to do the same to others, and you do that in the very same post! I think, I will not call that hypocrisy, I think that's immaturity.Things will become more clear to you when you grow up....

and yes... good luck with changing that script thing.. just answer me this, how will you spell 'P' or 'V' in Arabic?

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## Moander

The Snow Queen said:


> I had Islamic studies!!! I mean are you kidding me? And our Islamic teacher was the most nicest, kindest and the best teacher I have ever met! She is my favourite teacher of all time! Because she was so forgiving, peaceful and compassionate! I also come from a very religious family! My Uncle especially, he is extremely strict! And my mom won't spare me at all if I miss a single namaaz prayer!



Good to hear that you had Islamic studies, some of my cousins from English medium don't even know the history of prophets before Mohammad (SM) syllabus must have been changed after the last decade . 

On topic, so you want to create havoc and spent millions of dollar to change a script which Allah and his Rasul didn't made Haram?


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## haman10

if u guys dont accuse me of anything , and if no one jumps on conclusions , may i ask sth ?

didnt dear bangladeshi people use to read and write in persian ? what happened ? who changed it ?


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## The Snow Queen

haman10 said:


> if u guys dont accuse me of anything , and if no one jumps on conclusions , may i ask sth ?
> didnt dear bangladeshi people use to read and write in persian ? what happened ? who changed it ?



Here, read this thread if you want to know more.

Musalmani Bangla and its transformation

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## notsuperstitious

haman10 said:


> if u guys dont accuse me of anything , and if no one jumps on conclusions , may i ask sth ?
> 
> didnt dear bangladeshi people use to read and write in persian ? what happened ? who changed it ?



Dude Persian was used as court language by many muslim rulers, all over India. It was NOT the common man's language. I'm sure the inferiority complex ridden bngladeshis will try to mislead you.

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## scholseys

The Snow Queen said:


> Why do you want to know about which school I am from? I am from Mastermind not Scholastica.
> 
> 
> 
> This script changing is not something that can be done overnight... We first have to introduce Arabic and Persian Literature into the school curriculum.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you still see my newsfeed?
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry I didn't mean it. But all the other Indians are attacking me and I am losing out of words. What am I supposed to do back away? Why are they so concerned with whatever we do?


its fascinating how girls from your school turn out to be promiscuous and more western than westerners and here you are a right wing nut job.....interesting. Do you watch gossip girl, little girl?

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## Anubis

The Snow Queen said:


> Why do you want to know about which school I am from? I am from Mastermind not Scholastica.
> 
> 
> 
> This script changing is not something that can be done overnight... We first have to introduce Arabic and Persian Literature into the school curriculum.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you still see my newsfeed?
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry I didn't mean it. But all the other Indians are attacking me and I am losing out of words. What am I supposed to do back away? Why are they so concerned with whatever we do?


Yes!


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## livingdead

haman10 said:


> if u guys dont accuse me of anything , and if no one jumps on conclusions , may i ask sth ?
> 
> didnt dear bangladeshi people use to read and write in persian ? what happenped ? who changed it ?


persian was used as court language in many kingdoms of Indian subcontinent. But people continued to speak the local language (which in that region is bengali). Sometime a few persian words sneaked in just like we use many English words now a days.

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## KingMamba

haman10 said:


> if u guys dont accuse me of anything , and if no one jumps on conclusions , may i ask sth ?
> 
> didnt dear bangladeshi people use to read and write in persian ? what happened ? who changed it ?



Persian was official language but only the educated and the elite knew how to speak it locals only spoke local languages which had Persian loanwords over time. Those who knew how to read and write did indeed do so in Persian but the majority did not.



DRAY said:


> Talibans are students of Islam, they are the true followers of orthodox Islam, and Kazi Nazrul Islam is a murtard who even composed and sang Shyama-Sangeet to worship a pagan Hindu god!!!!!
> 
> I think BD should also get rid of their national poet Nazrul along with Tagore,* in fact poetry itself is an un-Islamic thingy as far as I know.* This Bengali culture is simply polluting the pious environment of BD.



Then you know nothing. Typical misinformed bharoti.

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## dray

khair_ctg said:


> changing the way of writing (at least on large scale) does not depend on fleeting sentiments. the current formal/mainstream way of writing Bangla is adopted from Hindus. besides that, the Muslims no longer even write Farsi and Urdu any more. as a result, *the inroads that Hindu culture, politics, philosophy, prose, poetry, epics have made into the Muslim society and replaced Muslim practises is mind-boggling.* i tried to explain my take on this process very briefly here: Musalmani Bangla and its transformation
> 
> and besides, the regular people can write Bangla in the Nastaliq script if they want to any time. some plausibly have already been doing so



True, that's why I suggested to switch to Arabic llanguage completely, not only the script, and get rid of the Bengali language & literature permanently, the transition can be fully done in 10 years max if you are serious about it. And for the Bengali literature by Muslim writers, that can be translated into Arabic before discarding the Bengali version.



The Snow Queen said:


> We want Nastaliq (Persian) script not Naskh script. Nastaliq is used by all the Central Asian countries including Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran uses it. Naskh (Arabic) is used by Middle East and South East Asian countries like Indonesia, Brunei, Malasia who uses Jawi script which is Malay language in Arabic script. Even Turkey uses Naskh script! *We might be the only Muslim country in the World uses a script made by Mushriks which is even lower than Kafirs so what's to be proud of it?*
> 
> *If all the Muslim countries can use Arabic and Persian scripts then why can't we? Instead we fall into the hands of the evil Mushriks! If you want to be slaves to the Hindus and Brahimins then be my guest.*



Quoted for truth.  Bangladesh needs to go through this change even if it costs some money, as some people were arguing. And do remember about changing the names of places & rivers, and most importantly, the country, Bangladesh, Dhaka, Mymensingh, Padma, Jamuna, etc. are too Hindu and too Bangla sounding.



The Snow Queen said:


> OHHH RIIIGHTT!! How did I forget about Punjab!!?? Punjab is divided between India and Pakistan! But in Pakistan's Punjab province they use Shamukhi which is Nastaliq script and in Indian Punjab province they use Gurmukhi which is Brahmic script! *So if Bengal is divided between India and Bangladesh then why the hell did we decided to get along with the shitty Hindu Brahmic script!!?*



Exactly!! The change is really needed, good point. In fact I would criticize Pakistan for still using those pagan identities like Punjabi, Sindhi, etc.



The Snow Queen said:


> We might be the only Muslim country in the World uses a script made by *Mushriks which is even lower than Kafirs* so what's to be proud of it?



@Anubis @BDforever @DarkPrince Can you guys please explain that part? Is it something like "Lower than the lowest"!! 



The Snow Queen said:


> I won't say, because someone in this forum said not to reveal personal information too much, because it is not safe...



You listened to a mushrik!!! 



The Snow Queen said:


> Why the hell do you care whatever we do!? *For Hindus culture matters, but for Muslims religion comes first and culture and all other stuff comes second.* Get that properly into your head! We are Muslims and for us religion is the most important! After you die is Allah is not going to see where ever the hell you came from but only your Iman! And all these culture stuff means nothing after death! *And having a Hinduidised culture is not benefiting us Muslims!*



That was a spirited reply!!  By the way, are you planning to join politics? You should, because then only you can be in a position to change things for better, I mean for greater & deeper Islamanization after a complete cleansing of pagan language, literature, & culture from Bangladesh.



> LOL I think you believe Bangladeshis culture is actually Hindu type but it is NOT! We are perfectly Muslims except that *some of us don't like Pohela Boishak and so many Hindu writers and poets in Bangla Literature.* Other than that we are absolutely fine with our Islamic way of life. And we don't do pooja at all, wear huge red dots and sarees and what..? Dhotis and....? I don't know... What other stuff do you all do?



Right, both Pohela Boishakh and Bhasa Dibos should go, and Hindu writers & poets and their heritage will anyway be packed up from Bangladesh along with their Bangla literature, that's the right thing to do.

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## Anubis

@DRAY Do you believe in god??

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## DRaisinHerald

DRAY said:


> Exactly!! The change is really needed, good point. In fact I would criticize Pakistan for still using those pagan identities like Punjabi, Sindhi, etc.



Hey don't bring us into this. Since most Punjabis and Sindhis are now Muslim, those are now Muslim identities

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## dray

KingMamba said:


> Then you know nothing. Typical misinformed bharoti.



Maybe, but I remember some Bangladeshi telling me that poetry is un-Islamic or something like that. Probably Talibans also have a negative view about poetry, they are the "Students of Islam"!! Anyway, pardon this mushrik for the ignorance, if any. 



DRaisinHerald said:


> Hey don't bring us into this. Since most Punjabis and Sindhis are now Muslim, those are now Muslim identities



Okay!! But.................................okay!!

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## KingMamba

DRAY said:


> Maybe, but I remember some Bangladeshi telling me that poetry is un-Islamic or something like that. Probably Talibans also have a negative view about poetry, they are the "Students of Islam"!! Anyway, pardon this mushrik for the ignorance, if any.



Not mushrik, kaffir.


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## dray

Anubis said:


> @DRAY Do you believe in god??



Why? Are you planning for my meeting with him for supporting the OP's noble cause??? 



KingMamba said:


> Not mushrik, kaffir.



Nope, Kaffirs are still better!! 
Check this................!!


> *We might be the only Muslim country in the World uses a script made by Mushriks which is even lower than Kafirs so what's to be proud of it?*

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## DRaisinHerald

DRAY said:


> Okay!! But.................................okay!!



Lol. I think you're Bengali? A person's ethnic group doesn't really dictate their religion, otherwise we'd all either be Muslim or not.

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## The Snow Queen

nForce said:


> Thirdly,in any case, you are absolutely free to do whatever you like, nobody is stopping you, but I might just have to ask, while you ask not to be abused for your choices and the religion you practice, you don't have any problem to do the same to others, and you do that in the very same post! I think, I will not call that hypocrisy, I think that's immaturity.Things will become more clear to you when you grow up....
> 
> and yes... good luck with changing that script thing.. just answer me this, how will you spell 'P' or 'V' in Arabic?



Okay, I apologise if I hurt you in anyway. Sometimes I can be a bit too rash in my actions... And IF Bangla is ever to be changed to a script then I think Nastaliq script fits more because both are Indo Aryan languages. And there is P and V in Persian.



Moander said:


> Good to hear that you had Islamic studies, some of my cousins from English medium don't even know the history of prophets before Mohammad (SM) syllabus must have been changed after the last decade .
> 
> On topic, so you want to create havoc and spent millions of dollar to change a script which Allah and his Rasul didn't made Haram?



Thanks! I am not saying we are literally going to change the script but just wanted to know what others think about this matter. And then you have most of these Indians coming here, bashing and making fun of this topic.



aazidane said:


> its fascinating how girls from your school turn out to be promiscuous and more western than westerners and here you are a right wing nut job.....interesting. Do you watch gossip girl, little girl?



You are crazy and delusional. Whatever perception you have of me are wrong because I am a pious person, who don't think about stupid kind of things. And to answer your question, no I don't watch shows like Gossip Girls or Vampire Diaries etc. Infact I hate them!



Anubis said:


> Yes!



Okay, now no one can.



KingMamba said:


> Persian was official language but only the educated and the elite knew how to speak it locals only spoke local languages which had Persian loanwords over time.



Right!

@DRAY Do not quote me like that!!  And sorry if you got offended by anything I said! I am quite impetuous...


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## dray

DRaisinHerald said:


> Lol. I think you're Bengali? A person's ethnic group doesn't really dictate their religion, otherwise we'd all either be Muslim or not.



Yep, I am among the remaining Bengalis from West Bengal!!


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## Anubis

DRAY said:


> Why? Are you planning for my meeting with him for supporting the OP's noble cause???
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, Kaffirs are still better!!
> Check this................!!


Yes....I think both of you can make the journey together....It won't hurt...I promise!

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## dray

The Snow Queen said:


> @DRAY Do not quote me like that!!  And sorry if you got offended by anything I said! I am quite impetuous...



Okay!!  But you are in a forum, and I do support the change!! 

And don't worry, I am too thick skinned to feel offended so easily!!

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## Anubis

DRAY said:


> Why? Are you planning for my meeting with him for supporting the OP's noble cause???
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, Kaffirs are still better!!
> Check this................!!


Yes....I think both of you can make the journey together....It won't hurt...I promise!



DRAY said:


> Why? Are you planning for my meeting with him for supporting the OP's noble cause???
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, Kaffirs are still better!!
> Check this................!!


Yes....I think both of you can make the journey together....It won't hurt...I promise!

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## dray

Anubis said:


> Yes....I think both of you can make the journey together....It won't hurt...I promise!



  
You are brainwashed by those evil malaun Hindu brahmanical mushriks, and now acting like a kaffir!!


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## khair_ctg

Moander said:


> Good to hear that you had Islamic studies, some of my cousins from English medium don't even know the history of prophets before Mohammad (SM) syllabus must have been changed after the last decade .
> 
> On topic, so you want to create havoc and spent millions of dollar to change a script which Allah and his Rasul didn't made Haram?


who made the Farsi, Urdu or any Nastaliq-Bangla haram? or why were they made haram? or who made the Muslim names of towns, villages and cities haram that they were changed by the Hindus during the colonial period?

and having an official Nastaliq-Bangla does not necessarily place any ban on any Sanskrit Bangla. but you just don't like the idea of Muslim cultural elements regaining influence after they were replaced by Hindu culture during the 200-year colonial period. 

it seems you are quick to mention the Quran and the Sunnah when defending an unwarranted dominance of a Hindu practise, but hate the existence of any culture that is part of BD's Muslim heritage. if there is anyone who is calling something haram, it is you who is calling Muslim culture as haram

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## KingMamba

DRAY said:


> Why? Are you planning for my meeting with him for supporting the OP's noble cause???
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, Kaffirs are still better!!
> Check this................!!



Lol Bangladeshis

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## khair_ctg

aazidane said:


> did you go to scholastica?


@The Snow Queen dont't reveal too much personal information unless you are a barrister promoting a book

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## dray

khair_ctg said:


> @The Snow Queen dont't reveal too much personal information unless you are a barrister promoting a book



I won't tolerate such humiliation of a notable writer like @MBI Munshi !!

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## khair_ctg

DRAY said:


> *I won't tolerate* such humiliation of a notable writer like @MBI Munshi !!


that's a lie

and i wasn't even trying to "humiliate" MBI Munshi in any way



haman10 said:


> if u guys dont accuse me of anything , and if no one jumps on conclusions , may i ask sth ?
> 
> didnt dear bangladeshi people use to read and write in persian ? what happened ? who changed it ?





notsuperstitious said:


> Dude Persian was used as court language by many muslim rulers, all over India. It was NOT the common man's language. I'm sure the inferiority complex ridden bngladeshis will try to mislead you.


my grandparents had scholarly grip on Farsi. it was common then. they were far from having a 'court background'



The Snow Queen said:


> I am sorry I didn't mean it. But all the other Indians are attacking me and I am losing out of words. What am I supposed to do back away? Why are they so concerned with whatever we do?


we know the nature of Indians (excluding a couple here maybe). and besides, did you check their population size? so good luck replying to every troll they post

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## scholseys

The Snow Queen said:


> Okay, I apologise if I hurt you in anyway. Sometimes I can be a bit too rash in my actions... And IF Bangla is ever to be changed to a script then I think Nastaliq script fits more because both are Indo Aryan languages. And there is P and V in Persian.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! I am not saying we are literally going to change the script but just wanted to know what others think about this matter. And then you have most of these Indians coming here, bashing and making fun of this topic.
> 
> 
> 
> You are crazy and delusional. Whatever perception you have of me are wrong because I am a pious person, who don't think about stupid kind of things. And to answer your question,* no I don't watch shows like Gossip Girls or Vampire Diaries etc. Infact I hate them!*
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, now no one can.
> 
> 
> 
> Right!
> 
> @DRAY Do not quote me like that!!  And sorry if you got offended by anything I said! I am quite impetuous...



awwww....


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## baajey

DRaisinHerald said:


> The tradition of Punjabi language literature began only in the 12 or 13th century around Baba Farid's time. Punjabi didn't have a standardized script before that, as most people were illiterate. So the primary script used to write the language among the few educated became Nastaliq (later Shahmukhi). Since the inception of Sikhism, Gurmukhi began to be used as well. So in Punjabi's case, the Nastaliq script was already well established before the other variant came into the picture. Similar case with Urdu, where Nastaliq was being used to write it until Devanagari was later introduced.
> 
> Bengali on the other hasn't been written with a script other than what you currently utilize. You should just keep it.


i think my id is hacked !!!


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## DRaisinHerald

baajey said:


> i think my id is hacked !!!



I swear I replied to Snow Queen or some other BDeshi and not you? What's going on?

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## Joe Shearer

Luffy 500 said:


> Just because so many nationalities /countries exist doesn't mean Islam allows that. All of this was foretold by our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the punishment for those who transgress and disobey Allah(swt) commandments has also been made very clear in the Quran and sunnah. Let just say Islam is perfect but muslims are not and we all will have to answer to Allah(swt) on the day of judgement. And yeah a muslim must strive for an fully islamic society within his/her limited capacity as Allah(swt) sees the intention and yeah there are still many islamic societies albeit not perfect. KSA and now brunei are good eg.
> 
> Btw most muslim states in its current form didn't exist before european colonization and weakening of the last islamic Caliphate the ottomans. SO muslims were indeed united for a large part of the last 1400 years. Its hasn't been 100s years yet since the ottoman empire got dissolved. As for a model islamic caliphate after prophet Muhammad (pbuh) death ...... that would be the Rashidun caliphate governed by the 4 rightly guided companions of Prophet Muhamman (pbuh). @Vyom



If you come out with garbage like this, you are inviting a detailed reply with all the information that you don't seem to have on the taxonomy and classification of Muslim states across the world. Please make at least a superficial effort to get your facts correct.

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## KingMamba

Joe Shearer said:


> If you come out with garbage like this, you are inviting a detailed reply with all the information that you don't seem to have on the taxonomy and classification of Muslim states across the world. Please make at least a superficial effort to get your facts correct.



Please expand.


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## Moander

khair_ctg said:


> who made the Farsi, Urdu or any Nastaliq-Bangla haram? or why were they made haram? or who made the Muslim names of towns, villages and cities haram that they were changed by the Hindus during the colonial period?
> 
> and having an official Nastaliq-Bangla does not necessarily place any ban on any Sanskrit Bangla. but you just don't like the idea of Muslim cultural elements regaining influence after they were replaced by Hindu culture during the 200-year colonial period.
> 
> it seems you are quick to mention the Quran and the Sunnah when defending an unwarranted dominance of a Hindu practise, but hate the existence of any culture that is part of BD's Muslim heritage. if there is anyone who is calling something haram, it is you who is calling Muslim culture as haram



I said there is no Haram language, please read first before replying. I am also against Hindu names of towns, villages and cities.
I am quick to mention the Quran and the Sunnah because i try to abide by them as a Muslim should be. Don't try to assume too much, to me everything except Allah have little worth. I wouldn't even consider anyone friend no matter how good he or she is unless they believe in Allah. I only support Bangla because i use it and Bangladesh is my country that's all.

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## INDIC

So, when are Bangladeshis changing the name of Padma and Jamuna to names like Darya e taimurid-1 and Darya e Taimurid-2.

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## dray

Moander said:


> I wouldn't even consider anyone friend no matter how good he or she is unless they believe in Allah.



You are a true believer.

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## Anubis

@aazidane calling @The Snow Queen a right wing nutjob....lulz......Ms.Mastermind must be special!

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## scholseys

Anubis said:


> @aazidane calling @The Snow Queen a right wing nutjob....lulz......Ms.Mastermind must be special!


she is 17 and she is into this...she is special...i see potential

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## dray

aazidane said:


> she is 17 and she is into this...she is special...i see potential



And afaik you are 20 something.


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## nForce

The Snow Queen said:


> Okay, I apologise if I hurt you in anyway. Sometimes I can be a bit too rash in my actions... And IF Bangla is ever to be changed to a script then I think Nastaliq script fits more because both are Indo Aryan languages. And there is P and V in Persian.



I was not talking about myself, I was just pointing out the level of immaturity.
So, amuse me, why do you think there is a necessity for a change?


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## Joe Shearer

KingMamba said:


> Please expand.



If.

I'm not sure that I wish to spend time on this thread; it is one of the worst and most juvenile that I've come across. The OP seems like a fake, and an Indian agent provocateur. The arguments forwarded for such a hypothetical change are utterly puerile, although, in this case, we are presumably to find them puellile. 

But let us see.

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## khair_ctg

nForce said:


> I was not talking about myself, I was just pointing out the level of immaturity.
> So, amuse me, why do you think there is a necessity for a change?


why do you think there is a need to explain such things to people who are in such opposition to Muslim culture and heritage of the subcontinent?

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## nForce

khair_ctg said:


> why do you think there is a need to explain such things to people who are in such opposition to Muslim culture and heritage of the subcontinent?



Firstly, I don't really appreciate, this particular action of trying to hijack a question which is directed to someone else..

Secondly, even if you do, you come up with the answer first.

Thirdly, do you normally make such assumptions before talking to people or is this a special case?

Fourthly, what will be your answer, if the same question is asked to you?

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## Joe Shearer

@king Mamba

There is an interesting part of the discussion that has developed over the last few posts. One side has demonstrated an admirable grip over the antecedents and the practical situation of Bengali, but in a distorted, warped version of what I believe to be the reality, while the other side has no clue whatsoever about the realities that research reveals. 

This is history at its worst - and best.

At the moment, I would rather watch this fascinating development, and greedily absorb those references that I did not have earlier, than write about the fragmentation of the Islamic state.

Bear with me.

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## baajey

DRaisinHerald said:


> I swear I replied to Snow Queen or some other BDeshi and not you? What's going on?


i dunno man.....ghor kalyug 
....and i swear i dunno that much about nastaliq or nashq ??? wat are they and how they are important for this discussion ???


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## DRaisinHerald

baajey said:


> i dunno man.....ghor kalyug
> ....and i swear i dunno that much about nastaliq or nashq ??? wat are they and how they are important for this discussion ???



Just different styles of writing with the same alphabet







Urdu, Punjabi (Shahmukhi), Sindhi, Pashto, Dari, Farsi, Kurdi and most other languages are written in Nastaliq;
Arabic and I think Jawi (i.e. writing system for the Malay language) are written in Naskh.

And neither of these 'important' for discussion. I mentioned them as a joke.


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## The Snow Queen

Joe Shearer said:


> If.
> I'm not sure that I wish to spend time on this thread; it is one of the worst and most juvenile that I've come across. The OP seems like a fake, and an Indian agent provocateur. The arguments forwarded for such a hypothetical change are utterly puerile, although, in this case, we are presumably to find them puellile.
> But let us see.



Why do you care whatever we do? Is this going to effect India in any way? We can do whatever we want and no one can do anything about it! If you don't like this topic then don't come into this forum section but stay in your own country's section!

No wonder why everyone in this Sub Continent do not like the Indians. They think the whole world revolves around them.

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## baajey

DRaisinHerald said:


> Just different styles of writing with the same alphabet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Urdu, Punjabi (Shahmukhi), Sindhi, Pashto, Dari, Farsi, Kurdi and most other languages are written in Nastaliq;
> Arabic and I think Jawi (i.e. writing system for the Malay language) are written in Naskh.
> 
> And neither of these 'important' for discussion. I mentioned them as a joke.


nashk looks awesome......i like this style.


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## The Snow Queen

baajey said:


> nashk looks awesome......i like this style.



Yep, the Quran is in Naskh. But there is a difference between Nastaliq and Naskh... There are more alphabets in Persian than in Arabic. Eg. there is no P in Naskh but sometimes they borrow the "pe" from Nastaliq.


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## baajey

The Snow Queen said:


> Yep, the Quran is in Naskh. But there is a difference between Nastaliq and Naskh... There are more alphabets in Persian than in Arabic. Eg. there is no P in Naskh but sometimes they borrow the "pe" from Nastaliq.


Well then my suggestion is keep naskh n import the rest (for eg "pe") from others....
Cheers to ur endeavours ....


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## cloud_9

The Snow Queen said:


> *And it has nothing to do with being Arab/Persian/Afghan or inferiority complex.*
> 
> And *if you think all our people look like Bangladeshi cricket team then you are wrong because they all from villages* where most people are malnourished, poor and they do look different from people living in cities who are middle class and upper class. *My grandfather was a Pashtun born in Pakistan and also studied there. My grandma is a Choudhury and she has Turkic/Iranian background.*


What the relation here? 

Never knew Chaudhry's were Turkic/Iranian  
Where is the resident Chaudhry Razpak or was he a Jatt

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## INDIC

cloud_9 said:


> What the relation here?
> 
> Never knew Chaudhry's were Turkic/Iranian
> Where is the resident Chaudhry Razpak or was he a Jatt



Don't you know 55% Bangladeshis have Arab, Persian and Turkish ancestry, 15% are mixed and remaining 30% converted from Buddhism.  @Md Akmal


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## khair_ctg

nForce said:


> Firstly, I don't really appreciate, this particular action of trying to hijack a question which is directed to someone else..
> 
> Secondly, even if you do, you come up with the answer first.
> 
> Thirdly, do you normally make such assumptions before talking to people or is this a special case?
> 
> Fourthly, what will be your answer, if the same question is asked to you?


you should've taken it as a comment to your question to someone else.

the change is necessary because this current form of writing Bangla was a Hindu practise. and whether it was intentionally imposed on Muslims is not as important as the fact it did replace Muslim writing practise in Farsi and Urdu. historically, when Muslims would want to write something in their *own* language, they would do so using Farsi, Urdu and Arabic (the latter mostly as a spiritual language). if they wanted to write in Bengali, they would have to learn and write in the Bengali-of-Hindus. because the Bengali-of-Muslims (Nastaliq Bangla) was not very mature or not fully standardized, as far as i have learned. therefore the predominant written languages of Bengal Muslims were Farsi and Urdu, rather than Nastaliq-Bangla. however, some of these same Muslims would use the Musalman Bangla *only for speaking* and it was characterized like this:

_a jargon which a Hindu will probably not understand. for only the pronouns and verbs are Bengali. and the rest Urdu. Persian. and Arabic ... This is the language to which Moulavi Abdul Karim Saheb characterises as "a kind of Bengali' which the "agriculturalists speak."_

Musalmani Bangla and its transformation | Page 10

. the fact that the written languages associated with Bengal Muslims were Farsi, Urdu and Arabic only (and not Nastaliq Bangla as well) may be because of the high illiteracy of people who could potentially patronize the development of a Nastaliq Bangla. so the way Muslims established some Indo-Aryan languages in Nastaliq/Shahmukhi was incomplete in Muslim Bengal. the way i see it, Nastaliq Bangla should be promoted more to fill in the incomplete heritage of Bengali language overall, and it will only enrich the Bengali language and make us acknowledge its rich history.

only people who are intolerant of subcontinental Muslim heritage co-existing side by side with Indic or Vedic heritage would blindly detest this

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## nForce

khair_ctg said:


> you should've taken it as a comment to your question to someone else.
> 
> the change is necessary because this current form of writing Bangla was a Hindu practise. and whether it was intentionally imposed on Muslims is not as important as the fact it did replace Muslim writing practise in Farsi and Urdu. historically, when Muslims would want to write something in their *own* language, they would do so using Farsi, Urdu and Arabic (the latter mostly as a spiritual language). if they wanted to write in Bengali, they would have to learn and write in the Bengali-of-Hindus. because the Bengali-of-Muslims (Nastaliq Bangla) was not very mature or not fully standardized, as far as i have learned. therefore the predominant written languages of Bengal Muslims were Farsi and Urdu, rather than Nastaliq-Bangla. however, some of these same Muslims would use the Musalman Bangla *only for speaking* and it was characterized like this:
> 
> _a jargon which a Hindu will probably not understand. for only the pronouns and verbs are Bengali. and the rest Urdu. Persian. and Arabic ... This is the language to which Moulavi Abdul Karim Saheb characterises as "a kind of Bengali' which the "agriculturalists speak."_
> 
> Musalmani Bangla and its transformation | Page 10
> 
> . the fact that the written languages associated with Bengal Muslims were Farsi, Urdu and Arabic only (and not Nastaliq Bangla as well) may be because of the high illiteracy of people who could potentially patronize the development of a Nastaliq Bangla. so the way Muslims established some Indo-Aryan languages in Nastaliq/Shahmukhi was incomplete in Muslim Bengal. the way i see it, Nastaliq Bangla should be promoted more to fill in the incomplete heritage of Bengali language overall, and it will only enrich the Bengali language and make us acknowledge its rich history.
> 
> only people who are intolerant of subcontinental Muslim heritage co-existing side by side with Indic or Vedic heritage in the subcontinent would blindly detest this




ahh... well..so you dislike Bangla script, because its roots can be traced back to the Hindus, right?..

So, going by that logic of yours, you should not be using Bangla language at all, isn't it ? Can you speak Bangla btw?

Also, a corollary to that will be writing English in Arabic script, or is your fanaticism limited to Hindus only?

Well, in that case, stop using your computer.After all, it runs on either Intel or AMD processor.If it is Intel, it is an iterative development of the Pentium chip.If it is AMD, it is an iterative development of the K6.Vinod Dham, an Indian and a Hindu is considered to be the father of both of them....
I can give you a list of things you should stop using, but thats for starters..

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## khair_ctg

nForce said:


> *ahh*... well..so you dislike Bangla script, because its roots can be traced back to the Hindus, right?..


part of subcontinental Muslims in their lineage and culture can trace back their roots to Hindus or other Dharmic people or even Animists. whether we are talking about Urdu or Nastaliq-Bangla (or even the subcontinental Farsi) they still contain those roots. i don't dislike the Bangla script in its use and existence either in BD or in Calcutta. so you never saw me calling for complete ban of a script. it's great that it has a great domain in Calcutta. i just dislike it's overarching role in BD and its unfortunate use by Hindus as a tool to suppress Muslim linguistic heritage.



nForce said:


> Also, a corollary to that will be writing English in Arabic script, or is your fanaticism limited to Hindus only?
> 
> Well, in that case, stop using your computer.After all, it runs on either Intel or AMD processor.If it is Intel, it is an iterative development of the Pentium chip.If it is AMD, it is an iterative development of the K6.Vinod Dham, an Indian and a Hindu is considered to be the father of both of them....
> I can give you a list of things you should stop using, but thats for starters..


writing English in Persian-Arabic is not even an issue, because Muslims of Bengal hardly contributed to the development of English as their own language. 

fanaticism is only coming from you. because it is only you who is supporting the long suppression of Nastaliq writing in this part of the world starting from the displacement of Farsi during colonization. it is you who hates anything to do with subcontinental Muslim culture.

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## INDIC

Bengali Script


Brāhmī
Gupta
Siddhông (Siddhaṃ)
Bengali alphabet




Devanagari Script


Brāhmī
Gupta
Nāgarī
Devanāgarī

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## Saiful Islam

nForce said:


> ahh... well..so you dislike Bangla script, because its roots can be traced back to the Hindus, right?..
> 
> So, going by that logic of yours, you should not be using Bangla language at all, isn't it ? Can you speak Bangla btw?
> 
> Also, a corollary to that will be writing English in Arabic script, or is your fanaticism limited to Hindus only?
> 
> Well, in that case, stop using your computer.After all, it runs on either Intel or AMD processor.If it is Intel, it is an iterative development of the Pentium chip.If it is AMD, it is an iterative development of the K6.Vinod Dham, an Indian and a Hindu is considered to be the father of both of them....
> I can give you a list of things you should stop using, but thats for starters..




If it wasn't for Al Kawarizmi none of that stuff would be here. So you might as well not use any electronic device lmao.


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## Saiful Islam

I personally am not bothered about the script, I only speak Bengali and see it as a upper hand as it is a quite distinct from languages such as Hindi and Urdu which sound exactly the same. My friends think the Bengali language (Sylheti especially as it sounds very rough) sounds funny but I see it as advantageous because they don't understand me. 

So many Bengali scholars gave great contributions to languages such as Bengali, Urdu and Persian. In fact it was a Bengali who translated Sahih Bukhari into Urdu and also Kitab Ut Tawhid, I think. Leader of Hathazari Madrassa, Shafi Ahmed wrote many books in Urdu in his early days. There are so many Arabic/Persian words in day to day Bangla and I'm not talking about the common Persian vocab but ones we'd never thought were loan words. It's understandable that the Indians, the people of West Bengal specifically are thinking, hey, Bengali is Bengali...Then you are in for big shock.

People think Urdu is the language of Pakistan, but it is the language of Muslims in the subcontinent. Most Bayaans/Waz/Milad Sharif/Mehfils whatever you want to call it, they're still partially held in Bangla and Urdu. My aunty acquired a new house and for that we had a Milad Sharif, the Bangladeshi Huzur made dua in Bangla and then suddenly made a switch to Urdu.

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## khair_ctg

INDIC said:


> Bengali Script
> 
> 
> Brāhmī
> Gupta
> Siddhông (Siddhaṃ)
> Bengali alphabet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devanagari Script
> 
> 
> Brāhmī
> Gupta
> Nāgarī
> Devanāgarī


most of the Sanskrit- or Brahmi- derived scripts have been interchangeably called Devanagari by many. so for this formal Bengali script we should use "Brahmi" instead ?


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## SarthakGanguly

INDIC said:


> Bengali Script
> 
> 
> Brāhmī
> Gupta
> Siddhông (Siddhaṃ)
> Bengali alphabet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devanagari Script
> 
> 
> Brāhmī
> Gupta
> Nāgarī
> Devanāgarī


Brahmi sounds equally bad for them, I guess. If not worse.

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## Imran Khan

more better option ? use english


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## Al-zakir

United Pakistan government tried and failed due to Tagore loving Islamic named fasiq murtids. We had our chance to be different from Indian after 47 but we screwed up. We deserved to be ruled by Hindus.


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## INDIC

Saiful Islam said:


> If it wasn't for Al Kawarizmi none of that stuff would be here. So you might as well not use any electronic device lmao.



That's not true, Al Khwarizmi learnt earlier Algebra of Indian mathematician Brahmagupta who's work was translated into Arabic as SindHind. 



khair_ctg said:


> most of the Sanskrit- or Brahmi- derived scripts have been interchangeably called Devanagari by many. so for this formal Bengali script we should use "Brahmi" instead ?



I have never heard such nomenclature. Devanagari is used for few languages of India and Nepal but Devanagari is not used for Bengali language.

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## Joe Shearer

The Snow Queen said:


> Why do you care whatever we do? Is this going to effect India in any way? We can do whatever we want and no one can do anything about it! If you don't like this topic then don't come into this forum section but stay in your own country's section!
> 
> No wonder why everyone in this Sub Continent do not like the Indians. They think the whole world revolves around them.



This was not addressed to you, this was addressed to someone else on his request to dilate on the fragmentation of Muslim unity that I claimed had occurred. I thought it appropriate to explain to him why I was not very interested in getting involved, because of the poverty of argument and banal nature of the thread, and because of the extremely stupid views expressed by some important discussants.

As far as caring about whatever 'you' do, it has been made plain time and time again - perhaps at some time when your supposed persona was busy with classes and homework - that (a) this is an international forum, and so-called national fora within it are not sacred ground, reserved for one or the other; (b) it is not Bangladesh that is under consideration, but the views of individual Bangladeshis within this forum. So it is not a question of whether or not this is going to affect India in any way; it was never a question of that. Instead, it is a question of whether or not the discussants are putting up any worthwhile arguments, and at the time I wrote that remark, the level of the argument was dismal.

Your own level of understanding, and your own level of engaging with criticism remains dismal.

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## hi5blast

Go ahead and change your script
AFter all uttar pradesh muslims won pakistan.. now its turn for bangladesh..
make it arabic script yo yo..
Uttar Pradesh Jindabad..
Aligarh Jindabad..


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## kalu_miah

Imran Khan said:


> more better option ? use english



I actually proposed that we introduce both English and Nastaliq scripts/alphabets for Bangla language. Having English as a script have many benefits, as it makes understanding English easier and writing and typing in computer becomes more easy. English is going to be the predominant global language and some would say that English already is the global language and no other language would be able to replace it in the foreseeable future.

Once both English and Nastaliq scripts are introduced, after proper research and cost-benefit analysis done in Bangla language department of major universities in Bangladesh, then they will have their own momentum and only time will tell whether Nastaliq and English scripts/alphabets replace the existing Bangla script derived from Brahmi. The fading of existing script will have the additional benefit of cultural and linguistic discontinuity with West Bengal, as this common script was used by India as a tool of subversion to break Pakistan and make Bangladesh a vassal state of India. It is time for us to provide alternatives to people so they can choose whether they want to remain closer to West Bengal and its people and their Kolkata based culture or rather become closer to the global culture (English script and language) and global Muslim culture (Nastaliq script).

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## BATMAN

wow.... people are really out of control with a simple idea! wonder what is so inflaming in OP that instead of giving your vote, most of you have badmouthed the OP!
I only see intimidation and extremism in the posts of those, who apparently didn't like the idea.
Too much hate.... is it for the script, idea or some thing else?

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## farhan_9909

Well I would support if pashto is made national language of bangladesh.

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## Dillinger

Joe Shearer said:


> This was not addressed to you, this was addressed to someone else on his request to dilate on the fragmentation of Muslim unity that I claimed had occurred. I thought it appropriate to explain to him why I was not very interested in getting involved, because of the poverty of argument and banal nature of the thread, and because of the extremely stupid views expressed by some important discussants.
> 
> As far as caring about whatever 'you' do, it has been made plain time and time again - perhaps at some time when your supposed persona was busy with classes and homework - that (a) this is an international forum, and so-called national fora within it are not sacred ground, reserved for one or the other; (b) it is not Bangladesh that is under consideration, but the views of individual Bangladeshis within this forum. So it is not a question of whether or not this is going to affect India in any way; it was never a question of that. Instead, it is a question of whether or not the discussants are putting up any worthwhile arguments, and at the time I wrote that remark, the level of the argument was dismal.
> 
> Your own level of understanding, and your own level of engaging with criticism remains dismal.



Imagine if they completely dropped Bangla, in a decade or two it will become much easier for us to root out the then pole vaulting loons. I do not support the OP's measure simply because it STILL retains Bangla with only a change in the written script, Arabic should do the job quite well, not to mention it will fit right in with our alleged "turning BD into a desert" plan.

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## the just

BATMAN said:


> wow.... people are really out of control with a simple idea! wonder what is so inflaming in OP that instead of giving your vote, most of you have badmouthed the OP!
> I only see intimidation and extremism in the posts of those, who apparently didn't like the idea.
> Too much hate.... is it for the script, idea or some thing else?


Yah,guess its proving to themselves. Anti- India,pro- India.
Impossible ideas is okey to discuss, we all have our own opinion. Its healthy. But this?

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## BATMAN

the just said:


> But this?


but this was painful shock for every one .... right?
Still, instead of discussing pros and cons, people are using abusive words for the OP.... this was uncalled for!

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## hi5blast

Hey.. remember sharukh khan show in Bangladesh???
He was speaking only in urdu/hindi .. no english no bengali...
and he bashed one bangali guy who doesnot want to speak in urdu \.. 
Only the one who speaks urdu were allowed in stage 
you can search it in youtube...
hahahahaha the way he humilated that bengali guy for not speaking hindi/urdu is funny ...
Go and watch it.. you will find some inspiration..
Do it fast,,,,


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## Saiful Islam

hi5blast said:


> Hey.. remember sharukh khan show in Bangladesh???
> He was speaking only in urdu/hindi .. no english no bengali...
> and he bashed one bangali guy who doesnot want to speak in urdu \..
> Only the one who speaks urdu were allowed in stage
> you can search it in youtube...
> hahahahaha the way he humilated that bengali guy for not speaking hindi/urdu is funny ...
> Go and watch it.. you will find some inspiration..
> Do it fast,,,,




Shahrukhan is a haramzada.

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## khair_ctg

hi5blast said:


> Hey.. remember sharukh khan show in Bangladesh???
> He was speaking only in urdu/hindi .. no english no bengali...
> and he bashed one bangali guy who doesnot want to speak in urdu \..
> Only the one who speaks urdu were allowed in stage
> you can search it in youtube...
> hahahahaha the way he humilated that bengali guy for not speaking hindi/urdu is funny ...
> Go and watch it.. you will find some inspiration..
> Do it fast,,,,


that shah rukh khan show was a filthy freak show. that whole thing was like a scandal

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## scholseys

khair_ctg said:


> that shah rukh khan show was a filthy freak show. that whole thing was like a scandal


I am surprised no one issued a fatwa on Shahrukh Khan yet...

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## nForce

khair_ctg said:


> part of subcontinental Muslims in their lineage and culture can trace back their roots to Hindus or other Dharmic people or even Animists. whether we are talking about Urdu or Nastaliq-Bangla (or even the subcontinental Farsi) they still contain those roots. i don't dislike the Bangla script in its use and existence either in BD or in Calcutta. so you never saw me calling for complete ban of a script. it's great that it has a great domain in Calcutta. i just dislike it's overarching role in BD and its unfortunate use by Hindus as a tool to suppress Muslim linguistic heritage.



Firstly, if you want to write Bangla in some other script, by all means, go ahead, I couldn't care less about it.I just don't see, how it will make you a better Muslim.
I'm interested in knowing the rationale.Change is driven by necessity.According to you, the script is used as tool to suppress Muslim linguistic heritage, well so far as the advent Bangla is concerned, there is not much to begin with.Anyways, even if I take your words for granted, I fail to see, how the script is an issue and the language is not.
You did not answer my question though..Do you speak Bangla?



Al-zakir said:


> United Pakistan government tried and failed due to Tagore loving Islamic named fasiq murtids. We had our chance to be different from Indian after 47 but we screwed up. We deserved to be ruled by Hindus.



Your identity = Not Indian... Any individual identity of your own? No... Your very mentality is slave to the existence of somebody else.

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## nForce

Saiful Islam said:


> If it wasn't for Al Kawarizmi none of that stuff would be here. So you might as well not use any electronic device lmao.



The predictability of stupidity..never fails to amaze me.Did I say I'm the one who has got a problem with inventions and discoveries made by people belonging to other religion?
Now that you quote the mathematician, care to tell me about his take on Indian numerals ?.....You and the likes of you are blind to what he could see and perceive hundreds of years ago.Best of luck with that parallel universe of yours.

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## IamBengali

hi5blast said:


> Hey.. remember sharukh khan show in Bangladesh???
> He was speaking only in urdu/hindi .. no english no bengali...
> and he bashed one bangali guy who doesnot want to speak in urdu \..
> Only the one who speaks urdu were allowed in stage
> you can search it in youtube...
> hahahahaha the way he humilated that bengali guy for not speaking hindi/urdu is funny ...
> Go and watch it.. you will find some inspiration..
> Do it fast,,,,



That day was like a national holiday in Bangladesh. Our neighbor arranged a party in their rooftop to dance along with SRK. lol.. Many university halls arranged giant screen to show SRK concert. Bollywood is a craze in BD.

People here can understand Hindustani language but while they can get most of the words in its
Sanskritize version Hindi , it is hard to understand many words in its *Perso-Arabic *version Urdu. Bangla is a sanskritize language. So 'shudh' Hindi and Bangla have so many words in common. SRK talked in 'modern' Hindi if I remember but I couldn't remember when he bashed Bangali on stage. Have to re-watch the concert.

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## The Snow Queen

rmi5 said:


> This section of PDF needs to be renamed as the fun defense forum.
> BD members are very funny and they seem to be always on drugs. I like BD members and they are my favorites.
> The whole thread is a big joke.



''You want new rug broa?''

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## livingdead

Imran Khan said:


> more better option ? use english


you mean use roman letters for bengali language? That will definitely come hany while chatting ...


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## Moander

aazidane said:


> I am surprised no one issued a fatwa on Shahrukh Khan yet...


If Shahrukh Khan dances its OK but if its Shakira they will use fatwa . Its a discrimination .


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## Saiful Islam

nForce said:


> The predictability of stupidity..never fails to amaze me.Did I say I'm the one who has got a problem with inventions and discoveries made by people belonging to other religion?
> Now that you quote the mathematician, care to tell me about his take on Indian numerals ?.....You and the likes of you are blind to what he could see and perceive hundreds of years ago.Best of luck with that parallel universe of yours.




Why are you having a hissy fit? It is a light hearted joke.


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## rmi5

The Snow Queen said:


> ''You want new rug broa?''


LOL, I am not a Persian, my queen.


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## scholseys

The Snow Queen said:


> ''You want new rug broa?''


it appears snow queen watches infidel programs...lakh lanaat on snow queen. Time to issue a fatwa on her...

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## The Snow Queen

rmi5 said:


> LOL, I am not a Persian, my queen.



Okey dokey! 



aazidane said:


> it appears snow queen watches infidel programs...lakh lanaat on snow queen. Time to issue a fatwa on her...



I don't watch any programs or tv shows...

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## dray

kalu_miah said:


> I actually proposed that we introduce both English and Nastaliq scripts/alphabets for Bangla language. Having English as a script have many benefits, as it makes understanding English easier and writing and typing in computer becomes more easy. English is going to be the predominant global language and some would say that English already is the global language and no other language would be able to replace it in the foreseeable future.
> 
> Once both English and Nastaliq scripts are introduced, after proper research and cost-benefit analysis done in Bangla language department of major universities in Bangladesh, then they will have their own momentum and only time will tell whether Nastaliq and English scripts/alphabets replace the existing Bangla script derived from Brahmi. *The fading of existing script will have the additional benefit of cultural and linguistic discontinuity with West Bengal,* as this common script was used by India as a tool of subversion to break Pakistan and make Bangladesh a vassal state of India. It is time for us to provide alternatives to people so they can choose whether they want to remain closer to West Bengal and its people and their Kolkata based culture or rather become closer to the global culture (English script and language) and global Muslim culture (Nastaliq script).




That's the most important benefit of this wonderful proposal of OP, but I am disappointed with the shaky half-hearted attempt of Bangladeshi nationalists, you guys still want to stick to Bengali only, changing script means nothing, if I start writing Bengali using English script, it still remains Bengali. You cannot break the cultural & linguistic ties with West Bengal just by changing the script for god's sake. Look at Pakistan, their Urdu is very similar to Hindi with a different script, result is that they are still tied to India culturally & linguistically through Bollywood films, music, TV serials, etc. and many of the common Pakistanis are unknowingly surrendering to the evil Indian design of cultural invasion of Pakistan. You really need to get rid of Bengali language itself along with its full baggage of literature & history, trust me, cultural & linguistic discontinuity with West Bengal will only be possible when people of WB & BD will stop understanding each other's languages. 

Hope other notable Bangladeshi nationalists are listening. @khair_ctg @the just @aazidane @Skies @asad71 @MBI Munshi @The Snow Queen @Saiful Islam

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## hi5blast

The Snow Queen said:


> Should the people of Bangladesh really do away with Devanagari script of Bangla and go for Arabic/Persian script? To Islamise our Language and bring back our real roots of East Bengal? The way our forefathers used to write and maybe talk?
> 
> I have an idea that our first initiative should be to make a Petition. And perhaps, it is a small step to a big change! We want your opinions of all the people here, and then decide if we will make this Petition.
> 
> By the way, I myself cannot make this petition because I am scared to go for this all by myself and I don't know much about the History as some of you here knows... We need someone who is wise, intelligent and knowledgeable to make this Petition for us and can add it to the description of the Petition, which will be able to convince most people to sign.
> 
> 
> 
> @kalu_miah @MBI Munshi @aazidane @khair_ctg @Saiful Islam @Zahur Ahmed Chowdhury @kobiraaz
> 
> I probably have noticed some you guys here being huge supporters of this movement. Should we first start with a Petition?


Please change it..Pakistan urdu is 90% sanskritised hindu langunage.. and they speak in bollywood hindi .. So Pakistani can interact with hindu mushriks very easily.But Because of your lungi waala bangali language.. you feel separated and hence you are inferior to indians and pakistanis..
Also you should change your script to the one which is used by turkey.. By this way at least you can claim khilafat.. And I prefer you should talk in farsi like all your master used to talk.. You are a slave na.. so you should learn farsi to become equal to we indians and pakistanis..
FARSI FOR BANGLADESH.. oh sorry for BANGALISTAN.. oops no bangali.. sorry.. FARSISTAN.. that will be cool

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## kalu_miah

DRAY said:


> That's the most important benefit of this wonderful proposal of OP, but I am disappointed with the shaky half-hearted attempt of Bangladeshi nationalists, you guys still want to stick to Bengali only, changing script means nothing, if I start writing Bengali using English script, it still remains Bengali. You cannot break the cultural & linguistic ties with West Bengal just by changing the script for god's sake. Look at Pakistan, their Urdu is very similar to Hindi with a different script, result is that they are still tied to India culturally & linguistically through Bollywood films, music, TV serials, etc. and many of the common Pakistanis are unknowingly surrendering to the evil Indian design of cultural invasion of Pakistan. You really need to get rid of Bengali language itself along with its full baggage of literature & history, trust me, cultural & linguistic discontinuity with West Bengal will only be possible when people of WB & BD will stop understanding each other's languages.
> 
> Hope other notable Bangladeshi nationalists are listening. @khair_ctg @the just @aazidane @Skies @asad71 @MBI Munshi @The Snow Queen @Saiful Islam



Easy does it, step by step, one step at a time. No rush. Remember Historical Continuity is one of my core theories. We will reintroduce Nastaliq script and reintroduce Persian, Arabic and Turkic loan words, but the skeleton of the language will remain the original Bangla derived from Prakrit, even if we cut out and drop the Kolkata imposed Sanskrit words, just like Urdu retains Khariboli at its foundation.

Changing scripts and loan words will make it sufficiently different, just like there is difference between Hindi and Urdu.

I have another interesting suggestion for you guys in West Bengal and Assam, you should also drop the Brahmi derived Bangla/Assamese script and replace it with Devnagari, which is very similar to it anyways. That way Hindi and Indian Bangla will be both written with Devnagari script and it will help further integration between West Bengal and Assam with North India, where Devnagari is in use.

Once we have different scripts and loan words, that will create sufficient barriers between two cultures, as written material, news and web media, literature, text books everything will become different and mutually unintelligible to each other. Only spoken words may be similar like Hindi and Urdu, but that is ok.

To maintain Historical Continuity we must retain our original base language, regardless of the fact that it will be same as or similar to West Bengal. Please note that for most of 1204 to 1757, the court language in Bangalah as well as Delhi was Persian, using Nastaliq script. So while we will retain the spoken base language, we will also retain what we had for 500 years, Nastaliq script and Arabic-Persian-Turkic loan words, for the sake of enhancing Historical Continuity. For us it will be uprooting and throwing away the colonial imposition of British rule and resulting influence from Kolkata Bengal Renaissance and thus going back to our root, the original period of ethno-genesis of Muslim Bengali people during 1204-1757.

The origin of the name Bengal and Bangalah:
Bangalah | BanglaPedia : National Pedia of Bangladesh

Nastaliq Persian inscription in mosque built in 1692:
Banglapedia

*"Walipur Alamgiri Mosque* situated in Walipur village under Hajiganj upazila of Chandpur district. There are two mosques in the same locality - one known as Shahi or Alamgiri Mosque and the other as shah shuja mosque. The Alamgiri mosque has suffered much due to subsequent restoration works. Nevertheless, enough still survives to give an idea of its original plan and design. A Persian inscription in fine _nastaliq_ character, fixed over the central doorway, records the construction of the mosque by one Abdullah in 1692 AD in the reign of Alamgir aurangzeb."

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## dray

kalu_miah said:


> Easy does it, step by step, one step at a time. No rush. Remember Historical Continuity is one of my core theories. We will reintroduce Nastaliq script and reintroduce Persian, Arabic and Turkic loan words, but the skeleton of the language will remain the original Bangla derived from Prakrit, even if we cut out and drop the Kolkata imposed Sanskrit words, just like Urdu retains Khariboli at its foundation.
> 
> Changing scripts and loan words will make it sufficiently different, just like there is difference between Hindi and Urdu.
> 
> I have another interesting suggestion for you guys in West Bengal and Assam, you should also drop the Brahmi derived Bangla/Assamese script and replace it with Devnagari, which is very similar to it anyways. That way Hindi and Indian Bangla will be both written with Devnagari script and it will help further integration between West Bengal and Assam with North India, where Devnagari is in use.
> 
> Once we have different scripts and loan words, that will create sufficient barriers between two cultures, as written material, news and web media, literature, text books everything will become different and mutually unintelligible to each other. Only spoken words may be similar like Hindi and Urdu, but that is ok.
> 
> To maintain Historical Continuity we must retain our original base language, regardless of the fact that it will be same as or similar to West Bengal. Please note that for most of 1204 to 1757, the court language in Bangalah as well as Delhi was Persian, using Nastaliq script. So while we will retain the spoken base language, we will also retain what we had for 500 years, Nastaliq script and Arabic-Persian-Turkic loan words, for the sake of enhancing Historical Continuity. For us it will be uprooting and throwing away the colonial imposition of British rule and resulting influence from Kolkata Bengal Renaissance and thus going back to our root, the original period of ethno-genesis of Muslim Bengali people during 1204-1757.
> 
> The origin of the name Bengal and Bangalah:
> Bangalah | BanglaPedia : National Pedia of Bangladesh
> 
> Nastaliq Persian inscription in mosque built in 1692:
> Banglapedia
> 
> *"Walipur Alamgiri Mosque* situated in Walipur village under Hajiganj upazila of Chandpur district. There are two mosques in the same locality - one known as Shahi or Alamgiri Mosque and the other as shah shuja mosque. The Alamgiri mosque has suffered much due to subsequent restoration works. Nevertheless, enough still survives to give an idea of its original plan and design. A Persian inscription in fine _nastaliq_ character, fixed over the central doorway, records the construction of the mosque by one Abdullah in 1692 AD in the reign of Alamgir aurangzeb."




Hmmmm.....that is a good point, but Arabic as the mother tongue of new generation of Bangladeshis would integrate them far more deeply with the epicenter of the Islamic world, even if you introduce Arabic as the second language in schools, I am not sure how many Bangladeshis would actually benefit from it given the rate of literacy and level of education which is still very unsatisfactory in this part of the world. 

And what is your opinion about my other suggestions in previous pages?

1. Changing the name of the country, capital, places, and rivers, etc. to more appropriate Islamic names.

2. Discarding & destroying Bengali literature of all the Hindu writers & poets with significant Hindu influence, and translating the Bengali literature of Muslim writers to Arabic script (preferably Arabic language) before destroying the original Bengali version.

3. Eliminating all pagan cultural influences like the Bengali music, dance, sculpture, etc. and festivals like Pohela Boishakh and Bhasha Dibos. Also banning all pagan festivals and puja, etc.

4. Eliminating the Hindu part of the history from the history of Bangladesh including the names and work of Hindu historical personalities, something similar to what Pakistan did with their history.

5. What you are planning to do with the rest of the Hindus and other minorities in Bangladesh, especially if they don't fall in line with the plan?

Finally, I again reiterate that a half-hearted attempt at the cleansing won't kill the pest, you have to do a complete & comprehensive cleansing of the Bengaliness along with all its attributes to ensure that it doesn't grow back. Any show of softness will kill the purpose.

What other Bengali nationalists say on this? @khair_ctg @the just @aazidane @Skies @asad71 @MBI Munshi @The Snow Queen @Saiful Islam

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## asad71

@
*DRAY*

1.Languages evolve. Nothing can be forced in the process.

2. Ayub Khan,no doubt influenced by the use of Roman Urdu in the army, had mulled adopting the Roman script for Bangla as well as Urdu. The idea never took shape of course.Fazlur Rahman,late father of the BEXIMCO brothers, used to champion adopting either Urdu or Roman script for Bangla.

3. We Bengalee Muslims are in the process of building a nation.Obviously we will need to resolve any conflict in this process that may appear from the Bengalee nationalist camp. To that end we will move away gradually from the Calcutta/Renaissance camp in thought, philosophy and language.

4. Our national flag, national anthem,shapla emblem, etc will perhaps come under review in due course. Adopting the Roman script will never gain any support here. However, adopting the Arabic script will have supporters.

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## kalu_miah

DRAY said:


> Hmmmm.....that is a good point, but Arabic as the mother tongue of new generation of Bangladeshis would integrate them far more deeply with the epicenter of the Islamic world, even if you introduce Arabic as the second language in schools, I am not sure how many Bangladeshis would actually benefit from it given the rate of literacy and level of education which is still very unsatisfactory in this part of the world.
> 
> And what is your opinion about my other suggestions in previous pages?
> 
> 1. Changing the name of the country, capital, places, and rivers, etc. to more appropriate Islamic names.
> 
> 2. Discarding & destroying Bengali literature of all the Hindu writers & poets with significant Hindu influence, and translating the Bengali literature of Muslim writers to Arabic script (preferably Arabic language) before destroying the original Bengali version.
> 
> 3. Eliminating all pagan cultural influences like the Bengali music, dance, sculpture, etc. and festivals like Pohela Boishakh and Bhasha Dibos. Also banning all pagan festivals and puja, etc.
> 
> 4. Eliminating the Hindu part of the history from the history of Bangladesh including the names and work of Hindu historical personalities, something similar to what Pakistan did with their history.
> 
> 5. What you are planning to do with the rest of the Hindus and other minorities in Bangladesh, especially if they don't fall in line with the plan?
> 
> Finally, I again reiterate that a half-hearted attempt at the cleansing won't kill the pest, you have to do a complete & comprehensive cleansing of the Bengaliness along with all its attributes to ensure that it doesn't grow back. Any show of softness will kill the purpose.
> 
> What other Bengali nationalists say on this? @khair_ctg @the just @aazidane @Skies @asad71 @MBI Munshi @The Snow Queen @Saiful Islam



Bangalah name seems to come up after Muslim rule was established in 1204, before that it was Vanga and other names (please see link in previous post). We have no problem with pre-1200 influence and up to 1757, regardless of whether they were Hindu, Muslim or Buddhist or other. What happened between 1757-1947, under colonial rule will be under question and review. We have enough people and talent to create our own literature, it will need time and sponsorship.

About minorities in Bangladesh, nothing will be forced on them, just like none of these ideas will be forced on people of Bangladesh. University language departments will research them, there will be national debate and all decisions will be based on national consensus. But when the nation chooses a certain direction based on national consensus, then everyone naturally will have to follow those directions. It will be difficult to maintain separate script or version of language for minorities.


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## SarthakGanguly

I hope Bangladesh successfully sheds its pagan baggage. Fingers crossed.

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## asad71

SarthakGanguly said:


> I hope Bangladesh successfully sheds its pagan baggage. Fingers crossed.


Actually throughout history people of the delta have been struggling against pagan holds of Brahmins.Ramkrishna Paramhansa and Maa Sarla Devi, Swami Vivekanando, Michael Madhushudon, Iswar Chandra Vidyasagar, the Tagore family, Arobindo,etc have all revolted against paganist Brahmin hold over society. Now the final emancipation is round the corner.Soon To Be A Bengalee Will Be To Be A Muslim.


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## Joe Shearer

Dim-wittery unbounded.


Nagari itself is a derivative of Brahmi. Getting away from Bengali script to the Devnagari derived Hindi script is as complete a piece of nonsense as can be imagined.
There are half-baked conclusions being drawn from the records available of the Bengali language.
The Bengali script existed before the Bengali language. It was used as a common script all over eastern India and was not peculiar to Bengali. Far from it. 
Some fairly stupid commentators have jumped to the conclusion that the use of a similar script in Assamese, and in other eastern languages, indicates that those languages were derived from Bengali. Not so. They were all, including Bengali, derived from a common source, Magadhi Prakrit.
Bengali emerged first, in the eleventh to thirteenth centuries, and the early phases overlapped with the collapse of the Sena kingdom and the introduction of first, a province of the Delhi Sultanate, next, an independent Sultanate, whose princes had the khutba read in their name.
Early Bengali acquired loan words very early, by the 14th century, but for nearly four centuries, during the 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th centuries, it developed within itself, in association with other cognate languages also at that time slowly going away from Magadhi Prakrit.
From the 14th to the 18th centuries, till the British burst onto the scene, there was an increasing use of Persian at court. This was Persian, not Persianised Bengali.
There was an increased use of Persian words by all classes of society, not just the courtier and administrative classes.
There were sporadic instances of the use of right-to-left script during this period, but nothing on the scale of a mass movement.
The British put their own twist on things; they surveyed and 'rationalised' the language. That they 'sanskritised' the language is not impossible, but is highly improbable.
It seems rather more accurate to ascribe the 'sanskritisation' of the language, if it occurred, to the period immediately following the British political advent, and to look to the generations of Bengali middle-class promoters of the Bengal Renaissance for its main promoters.

Ironically, this is called sanskritisation, whereas it was already a hybridised language that was used as a base for the elimination of loan words. It is moot whether the process should be called sanskritisation or de-Persianisation.
The reaction to this was the movement known as Musulmani Bangla. This was short-lived, in the 19th century, and commencement of the 20th century, and it seems that most of the Bengali population, irrespective of religion or location, used a hybridised spoken language and a sanskritised written language. Over time, the differences between spoken and written language disappeared; they converged and the written form became a modified version of the spoken.
It was at this stage of development that partition took place. The language riots firmly underlined the commitment of the educated classes to the Bengali language proper, indirectly, to the script as well.

IT WAS THIS TABULA RASA THAT IS THE STARTING POINT FOR THE PRESENT THREAD.

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## MadDog

This is your culture, why on earth would you change it, I read somewhere pre 71, when Pakistan (meaning West Pak) tried to change the script of Bengali to something like Urdu ...the Bengalis fiercely resisted...why would you guys do that now


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## livingdead

MadDog said:


> This is your culture, why on earth would you change it, I read somewhere pre 71, when Pakistan (meaning West Pak) tried to change the script of Bengali to something like Urdu ...the Bengalis fiercely resisted...why would you guys do that now


they want arabic now .. and arabic > urdu

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## MadDog

hinduguy said:


> they want arabic now .. and arabic > urdu


lol

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## INDIC

asad71 said:


> Actually throughout history people of the delta have been struggling against pagan holds of Brahmins.Ramkrishna Paramhansa and Maa Sarla Devi, Swami Vivekanando, Michael Madhushudon, Iswar Chandra Vidyasagar, the Tagore family, Arobindo,etc have all revolted against paganist Brahmin hold over society. Now the final emancipation is round the corner.Soon To Be A Bengalee Will Be To Be A Muslim.



Seeing the comment of of Bangladeshis, final result seems being a Bangladeshis is not being a Bengali.

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## SarthakGanguly

asad71 said:


> Actually throughout history people of the delta have been struggling against pagan holds of Brahmins.Ramkrishna Paramhansa and Maa Sarla Devi, Swami Vivekanando, Michael Madhushudon, Iswar Chandra Vidyasagar, the Tagore family, Arobindo,etc have all revolted against paganist Brahmin hold over society. Now the final emancipation is round the corner.Soon To Be A Bengalee Will Be To Be A Muslim.


You mention the names of the likes of Ramkrishna and Vivekananda and follow it up with a statement like - "Soon To Be A Bengalee Will Be To Be A Muslim."

You, sir, are a genius.

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## kalu_miah

Joe Shearer said:


> Dim-wittery unbounded.
> 
> 
> Nagari itself is a derivative of Brahmi. Getting away from Bengali script to the Devnagari derived Hindi script is as complete a piece of nonsense as can be imagined.
> There are half-baked conclusions being drawn from the records available of the Bengali language.
> The Bengali script existed before the Bengali language. It was used as a common script all over eastern India and was not peculiar to Bengali. Far from it.
> Some fairly stupid commentators have jumped to the conclusion that the use of a similar script in Assamese, and in other eastern languages, indicates that those languages were derived from Bengali. Not so. They were all, including Bengali, derived from a common source, Magadhi Prakrit.
> Bengali emerged first, in the eleventh to thirteenth centuries, and the early phases overlapped with the collapse of the Sena kingdom and the introduction of first, a province of the Delhi Sultanate, next, an independent Sultanate, whose princes had the khutba read in their name.
> Early Bengali acquired loan words very early, by the 14th century, but for nearly four centuries, during the 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th centuries, it developed within itself, in association with other cognate languages also at that time slowly going away from Magadhi Prakrit.
> From the 14th to the 18th centuries, till the British burst onto the scene, there was an increasing use of Persian at court. This was Persian, not Persianised Bengali.
> There was an increased use of Persian words by all classes of society, not just the courtier and administrative classes.
> There were sporadic instances of the use of right-to-left script during this period, but nothing on the scale of a mass movement.
> The British put their own twist on things; they surveyed and 'rationalised' the language. That they 'sanskritised' the language is not impossible, but is highly improbable.
> It seems rather more accurate to ascribe the 'sanskritisation' of the language, if it occurred, to the period immediately following the British political advent, and to look to the generations of Bengali middle-class promoters of the Bengal Renaissance for its main promoters.
> 
> Ironically, this is called sanskritisation, whereas it was already a hybridised language that was used as a base for the elimination of loan words. It is moot whether the process should be called sanskritisation or de-Persianisation.
> The reaction to this was the movement known as Musulmani Bangla. This was short-lived, in the 19th century, and commencement of the 20th century, and it seems that most of the Bengali population, irrespective of religion or location, used a hybridised spoken language and a sanskritised written language. Over time, the differences between spoken and written language disappeared; they converged and the written form became a modified version of the spoken.
> It was at this stage of development that partition took place. The language riots firmly underlined the commitment of the educated classes to the Bengali language proper, indirectly, to the script as well.
> 
> IT WAS THIS TABULA RASA THAT IS THE STARTING POINT FOR THE PRESENT THREAD.



1. Its just a suggestion, so future generations will not have the need to maintain and learn two different scripts.

2.

1. Bengali script could be preexisting, before the evolution of Bangla language, none of us said anything about when it came into being
2. I am not sure who made such assertions, I personally knew that Bangla and Assamese come from same Prakrit root and share script and that Assamese did not derive from Bengali, not sure where you are getting these
3. ok
4. you are describing old Bengali (900/1000-1300)
5. 1300-1757 Persian was court language in Bengal as it was in Delhi, agreed
6. Persian, as well as Arabic (and Turkic to a smaller extent) loan words spread among all classes, naturally due to presence of Persian/Turkic/Arabic speakers (migrants from various parts of then Muslim world)
7. sporadic use is correct, because writing itself was a very limited activity and since Persian was legal and court language, perhaps those Muslim rulers did not feel the need to change the script of Bangla to Nastaliq as it was done for Khariboli/Urdu and Punjabi (Shahmukhi) etc. This is an unfinished business in our view that happened with majority Islamic people of the world, where the script was changed to some form of Arabic
8, 9 and 10.
*http://www2.nau.edu/~jmw22/cv/ArabicLoanwords.pdf
"Abdul Mannan, who wrote the definitive treatment of dobhasi literature in 1966, sees its origins in earlier Mughal patronage of Bengali. The first work on record “which has preserved evidence of the influence of the language of Muslim rulers [on Bengali] is the Mansavijay of Bipradàs Piplài”, a Brahmin (ca. 1495 C.E., Mannan 1966:59). Bharat Chandra wrote the following*
(from Onnodamongol):
na robe prosad gun/. [Persian, Arabic, Hindustani]
na hobe rosal lack grace and poetic quality.
ot eb o kohi bhasa *I have chosen, therefore, the yaboni misal the mixed language of the Muslims*.
ye hok se hok bhasa The ancient sages have
kavyo ros loye declared: “Any language may be used. The important thing is poetic quality” (Mannan 1966: 69–70; emphasis added)

This precolonial aesthetic of mixture gave way to a drive for purification. In the 19th century, dobhasi Bengali borrowed even more Perso-Arabic lexemes, perhaps (ironically) reflecting forces unleashed by Halhed’s (1969/1778) Grammar of the Bengal Language. Halhed considered foreign elements pollutants in the “pure Bengalese”. He acknowledged “the modern [mixed] jargon of the kingdom” but declared the loanwords unintelligible outside large cosmopolitan towns (1969:xiv). Following Halhed’s lead, British Orientalists and Hindu pundits working in Calcutta (Ft. William College) produced a Sanskritized register successfully promulgated as “standard Bengali”. The intensification of Perso-Arabic borrowings in 19th-century dobhasi was thus a reaction to Orientalism and the Sanskritization of Bengali. As emerging Hindu and Muslim leaders competed for populist appeal, they declared the others’ favored register (Sanskritized vs. dobhasi)“unintelligible to the masses”. *Some of Halhed’s successors – e.g. William Carey – at least for a time rejected linguistic purism. “A multitude of words, originally Persian or Arabic, are constantly employed in common conversation, which perhaps ought to be considered as enriching rather than corrupting the language” (Carey 1801:iii; emphasis in original). But Qayyum (1981) notes that later editions of Carey’s Grammar omitted these words. *Around 1850, British missionary James Long dubbed the Islamized form of Bengali “Musalman Bengali” (later called Musalmani Bangla – a form relevant to producing targeted translations of the Bible). Around 1900, members of the Hindu Bengali intelligentsia, such as Dinesh Chandra Sen and Rabindranath Tagore, made “Bengali literature” central to their “romantic nationalism” (Chakrabarty 2004). They believed that “the national [Bengali] literature” could engender a mystical union of the divergent groups of Bengali speakers, transcending the Hindu-Muslim divide. While they somewhat naively advocated this vision, Muslims in the united British Indian state of Bengal formed a Muslim Literary Association (1911), sensing that the Bengal Literary Academy (formed in 1893) was in some subtle way simply a “Hindu Bengali Literature Society”. But it was subtle. Hindu romantic nationalists did not advocate anything like the expurgation of Perso-Arabic words from Bengali. That was not what alienated Muslim literary figures. What the Hindu romanticists did so successfully was to promulgate a lexically Sanskritized Bengali that somehow appeared to be both the unmarked form of the language and the prestige variety."

I think the above paragraph describes clearly what Musalmani Bangla was: *The intensification of Perso-Arabic borrowings in 19th-century dobhasi was thus a reaction to Orientalism and the Sanskritization of Bengali.
*
But the thrust of our message always have been to go back to a much earlier root of Bangla or Middle Bangla (1300-1757), which is the Yaboni Mishal (Yabon is slur word for Muslims and Mishal means mixture) or Dobhasi as described in the first part of the paragraph, which Halhed then set out to purify at Fort William college. Perhaps I and others have incorrectly called 1300-1757 Middle Bangla as Musalmani Bangla and we should thank you for correcting that mistake.

Again we never claimed that Nastaliq was used widely for Bangla (sporadically as you said and as the above paper indicates), it definitely was used widely for Persian as the court language, so people were familiar with it, but then Persian was abolished after 1757. So that abruptly ended our connection with Nastaliq, which would not have happened, if Muslim rulers prior to 1757 made efforts to change the script of Bangla language from native Bangla to Nastaliq, and did not keep use of Nastaliq limited to Persian only.

11. Post 1947 partition, it was our earlier generations that went through 1952 language movement, where Golam Azam was a prominent participant, lets not get into that part of history in this thread, it is controversial at best. Nothing has been concluded then about the script of the language. The script of a living language of a living people can be changed at any time if the population and their learned experts/professionals feel, after proper research and cost/benefit analysis that there is need for a such a change. Our job was to float an idea and initiate a public debate, not to bring the debate to a conclusion. That will be left for professionals in the field and of course ultimately the people of Bangladesh.

The main ideas are:

- to remove the effect of colonial rule 1757-1947 in Bangla language
- to remove archaic and difficult Sanskrit Tatsama words that were introduced during Sanskritization 1757-1947
- to chart a new direction for Bangla language that draws its strength from middle Bangla (1300-1757) as its real roots
- to introduce Nastaliq and perhaps English as new alternate scripts for experimentation
- to introduce Arabic, Persian, Turkic as well as English loan words that will be practical for our interaction with the Muslim world and global cultures

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## dray

asad71 said:


> @
> *DRAY*
> 
> 1.Languages evolve. Nothing can be forced in the process.
> 
> 2. Ayub Khan,no doubt influenced by the use of Roman Urdu in the army, had mulled adopting the Roman script for Bangla as well as Urdu.  The idea never took shape of course.Fazlur Rahman,late father of the BEXIMCO brothers, used to champion adopting either Urdu or Roman script for Bangla.
> 
> 3. We Bengalee Muslims are in the process of building a nation.Obviously we will need to resolve any conflict in this process that may appear from the Bengalee nationalist camp. To that end we will move away gradually from the Calcutta/Renaissance camp in thought, philosophy and language.
> 
> *4. Our national flag, national anthem,shapla emblem, etc will perhaps come under review in due course. Adopting the Roman script will never gain any support here. However, adopting the Arabic script will have supporters.*



I missed that part in point no. 4, yes, changing those things to appropriate Islamic ones are important to.

Bangladeshi national flag absolutely doesn't look like a flag of an Islamic country, and I wonder what Sun is doing in the middle of the flag when all truly Islamic countries use Moon. It needs to be changed.

Bangladeshi national anthem is a disgrace to Islamic republic of Bangladesh, how can you have a national song written and composed by a Kaffir Hindu Brahmin Islamophobe Indian writer like Tagore???

And what is Shapla emblem? I don't know about it, can you show me?



kalu_miah said:


> Bangalah name seems to come up after Muslim rule was established in 1204, before that it was Vanga and other names (please see link in previous post). We have no problem with pre-1200 influence and up to 1757, regardless of whether they were Hindu, Muslim or Buddhist or other. What happened between 1757-1947, under colonial rule will be under question and review. We have enough people and talent to create our own literature, it will need time and sponsorship.
> 
> About minorities in Bangladesh, nothing will be forced on them, just like none of these ideas will be forced on people of Bangladesh. University language departments will research them, there will be national debate and all decisions will be based on national consensus. But when the nation chooses a certain direction based on national consensus, then everyone naturally will have to follow those directions. It will be difficult to maintain separate script or version of language for minorities.



Bangladesh or its capital Dhaka ever had any proper Islamic name? If not, then you can start by writing down names of 10 most notable Muslim historical personalities. What I suggest, you should spread the awareness and create a demand among people for the change, and when BNP+Jamat comes to power, just go for the kill. Make the whole transition in 5 years flat.

Btw, instead of destroying the libraries and burning the pagan Bengali books, can you please send them over to us, we can buy those books.



asad71 said:


> Actually throughout history people of the delta have been struggling against pagan holds of Brahmins.Ramkrishna Paramhansa and Maa Sarla Devi, Swami Vivekanando, Michael Madhushudon, Iswar Chandra Vidyasagar, the Tagore family, Arobindo,etc have all revolted against paganist Brahmin hold over society. Now the final emancipation is round the corner.Soon To Be A Bengalee Will Be To Be A Muslim.



The term Bengali and all its attributes are too much pagan Hindu type, it is very important that Bangladeshis stop identifying themselves as bengalis.



INDIC said:


> Seeing the comment of of Bangladeshis, final result seems *being a Bangladeshis is not being a Bengali. *



It should be like that only.

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## kalu_miah

DRAY said:


> Bangladesh or its capital Dhaka ever had any proper Islamic name? If not, then you can start by writing down names of 10 most notable Muslim historical personalities. What I suggest, you should spread the awareness and create a demand among people for the change, and when BNP+Jamat comes to power, just go for the kill. Make the whole transition in 5 years flat.
> 
> Btw, instead of destroying the libraries and burning the pagan Bengali books, can you please send them over to us, we can buy those books.
> 
> The term Bengali and all its attributes are too much pagan Hindu type, it is very important that Bangladeshis stop identifying themselves as bengalis.
> 
> It should be like that only.



All of these things will be decided by the people of Bangladesh, you and I can only make suggestions and give ideas, and I appreciate your spending time for our well being.


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## SarthakGanguly

kalu_miah said:


> All of these things will be decided by the people of Bangladesh, you and I can only make suggestions and give ideas, and I appreciate your spending time for our well being.


I sincerely hope you are able to do that completely and successfully. Any pagan/Hindu remnant is perhaps 'decadent' is nature. The initial birthpangs will be painful but it should be worth it. The day you complete the process you have in mind, I will throw a party for my Bengali friends here.  Best wishes.

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## INDIC

kalu_miah said:


> Bangalah name seems to come up after Muslim rule was established in 1204, before that it was Vanga and other names (please see link in previous post).



Its shows word Bangla has a evil yindoo origin and Timurid Bangladeshis should stop associating themselves with evil yindoo identity which will make you impure.

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## The Snow Queen

asad71 said:


> However, adopting the Arabic script will have supporters.



When you say Arabic do you mean Naskh or Nastaliq? I think we should go for Nastaliq script instead because it contains more alphabets, besides both Bangla and Persian are Indo Aryan languages and all the Muslims countries close to us like the countries in Central Asia and Iran uses the Nastaliq script except the Middle East which uses Naskh, because they are Semitic.

And we have been more influenced by Persian culture so we should definitely go for Nastaliq script instead of Naskh!!


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## scholseys

The Snow Queen said:


> Okey dokey!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't watch any programs or tv shows...


you watch Russel Peters, ..lakh lanaat on you.


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## dray

aazidane said:


> you watch Russel Peters, ..lakh lanaat on you.



We are discussing something very important mate, stop flirting here please.


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## Dillinger

SarthakGanguly said:


> You mention the names of the likes of Ramkrishna and Vivekananda and follow it up with a statement like - "Soon To Be A Bengalee Will Be To Be A Muslim."
> 
> You, sir, are a genius.



The more distinct the cultures become the easier it will be to spot the future vaulters.

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## SarthakGanguly

Dillinger said:


> The more distinct the cultures become the easier it will be to spot the future vaulters.


You got the point too


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## kobiraaz

Moander said:


> Wow, after 1400 years you came up with that Hadith . Did Allah and Prophet Muhammad (SM) ever said to abolish all the language and script except Arabic?
> 
> 
> Yo Kobiraaz long time no c



Dont find this forum attractive anymore..... Indians gang up on every thread and make fun of every topic...... Disgusting.......

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## livingdead

SarthakGanguly said:


> You got the point too


you guys troll too much.

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## The Snow Queen

kobiraaz said:


> Dont find this forum attractive anymore..... Indians gang up on every thread and make fun of every topic...... Disgusting.......



Yeah, they are like swarm of pests and parasites! Especially, when anything is related to Islam.


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## livingdead

The Snow Queen said:


> Yeah, they are like swarm of pests and parasites! Especially, when anything is related to Islam.


no offence, you have very strong views for a lady..

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## Rover

The Snow Queen said:


> Yeah, they are like swarm of pests and parasites! Especially, when anything is related to Islam.


Get back to the kitchen and make me a sandwich... My queen.


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## khair_ctg

MadDog said:


> This is your culture, why on earth would you change it, I read somewhere pre 71, when Pakistan (meaning West Pak) tried to change the script of Bengali to something like Urdu ...the Bengalis fiercely resisted...why would you guys do that now


the Bengalis who resisted were an extreme minority and ones with connections with India. and it was not largely the West of Pak that tried to bring back the Muslim Bangla language. it was initiated by many on the East side of Pak. and they included people with tremendous contribution in the development of Muslims in British-era East Bengal. 

the extreme minority however, had their hero in Rabindranath Tagore, who was a villainous figure to Muslims during his time. these people's main target was to rid East Bengal (East Pak) of its Muslim heritage and used a fake dichotomy vis-à-vis West Pak just as excuse. their main goal was to bring these uneducated and unaware East Bengal Muslims into Hindu zamindari cultural and political influence, which was an unfinished business from the preceding 200 years. 

because those Hindu-zamindari elements had established themselves over Bengal for such a long time, they could still dictate terms in East Pakistan even after many left for India after Partition. the large Muslim population even after 1947 were still at the mercy of the Hindus

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## MadDog

khair_ctg said:


> the Bengalis who resisted were an extreme minority and ones with connections with India. and it was not largely the West of Pak that tried to bring back the Muslim Bangla language. it was initiated by many on the East side of Pak. and they included people with tremendous contribution in the development of Muslims in British-era East Bengal.
> 
> the extreme minority however, had their hero in Rabindranath Tagore, who was a villainous figure to Muslims during his time. these people's main target was to rid East Bengal (East Pak) of its Muslim heritage and used a fake dichotomy vis-à-vis West Pak just as excuse. their main goal was to bring these uneducated and unaware East Bengal Muslims into Hindu zamindari cultural and political influence, which was an unfinished business from the preceding 200 years.
> 
> because those Hindu-zamindari elements had established themselves over Bengal for such a long time, they could still dictate terms in East Pakistan even after many left for India after Partition. the large Muslim population even after 1947 were still at the mercy of the Hindus





khair_ctg said:


> the Bengalis who resisted were an extreme minority and ones with connections with India. and it was not largely the West of Pak that tried to bring back the Muslim Bangla language. it was initiated by many on the East side of Pak. and they included people with tremendous contribution in the development of Muslims in British-era East Bengal.
> 
> the extreme minority however, had their hero in Rabindranath Tagore, who was a villainous figure to Muslims during his time. these people's main target was to rid East Bengal (East Pak) of its Muslim heritage and used a fake dichotomy vis-à-vis West Pak just as excuse. their main goal was to bring these uneducated and unaware East Bengal Muslims into Hindu zamindari cultural and political influence, which was an unfinished business from the preceding 200 years.
> 
> because those Hindu-zamindari elements had established themselves over Bengal for such a long time, they could still dictate terms in East Pakistan even after many left for India after Partition. the large Muslim population even after 1947 were still at the mercy of the Hindus



Ok, here is a book "Women, Islam and the State"...read Page 120-121, When Pakistani regime tried to make changes in Bengali culture, which included changing Bengali to Arabic script, stop them from wearing "Bindis" (Forehead marks)....the Bengali poppulation especially women resisted.... Women, Islam, and the State - Google Books


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## dray

khair_ctg said:


> *the Bengalis who resisted were an extreme minority and ones with connections with India.* and it was not largely the West of Pak that tried to bring back the Muslim Bangla language. it was initiated by many on the East side of Pak. and they included people with tremendous contribution in the development of Muslims in British-era East Bengal.
> 
> *the extreme minority however, had their hero in Rabindranath Tagore, who was a villainous figure to Muslims during his time.* these people's main target was to rid East Bengal (East Pak) of its Muslim heritage and used a fake dichotomy vis-à-vis West Pak just as excuse. their main goal was to bring these uneducated and unaware East Bengal Muslims into Hindu zamindari cultural and political influence, which was an unfinished business from the preceding 200 years.
> 
> because those Hindu-zamindari elements had established themselves over Bengal for such a long time, they could still dictate terms in East Pakistan even after many left for India after Partition. the large Muslim population even after 1947 were still at the mercy of the Hindus



This part in bold I was not aware of, so the creation of Bangladesh and Bengali nationalism was actually imposed by an *extreme minority of Bengalis* on hapless general population of Bangladesh!! That sounds logical though as "*around 55 % people in Bangladesh are of foreign origin* ( Arab, Persia, Afghanistan, Turkey, Yemen, Abyssinia, Ethiopia, Central Asia etc.). Around 15 % people are mixed and around 30 % people are converted Muslim majority being from Buddhists instead of Hindus." -- as per @Md Akmal .

With such a large majority of non-ethnically-Bengali population, *Bangladesh should not be know as a country of Bengalis, the extreme minority of Bengalis are creating their unfair hegemony in Bangladesh by falsely imposing the "Bengali" identity tag on Bangladesh, *and this again calls for immediate rejection of Bengali language, literature, culture, and identity, including the name of the country* 'Bangla'desh*, because the name *'Bangla'desh* automatically gives unfair rights to extreme minority Bengalis vis-a-vis a large majority of non-ethnically-Bengali population. I smell a revolution in the air, and wonder what will happen to Bengali lovers like @Anubis and @BDforever and also @IamBengali , and what about @DarkPrince what is his position?

But will the new country emerging after the revolution by replacing erstwhile 'Bangla'desh will remain a separate sovereign country, or it will go back to its roots as *East Pakistan*?

I was also wondering how many of you are not Bengalis or not pure Bengalis and suffering with the 'imposed' Bengali identity, I know @The Snow Queen is not, but what about the rest? kindly reply:

@khair_ctg @the just @aazidane @Skies @asad71 @MBI Munshi@Md Akmal @Saiful Islam

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## The Snow Queen

aazidane said:


> you watch Russel Peters, ..lakh lanaat on you.



I don't. It's just a youtube video that I found!



DRAY said:


> I know @The Snow Queen *is not*



What "not"? Not what? I am not what?


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## dray

The Snow Queen said:


> What "not"? Not what? I am not what?



Just saying that you are one of the majority Bangladeshis who belong to the Arab, Persia, Afghanistan, Turkey, Yemen, Abyssinia, Ethiopia, Central Asia origin as stated by @Md Akmal , and suffering with the Bengali identity falsely imposed by the extreme minority Bengalis (as stated by @khair_ctg ) who created the Bengali hegemony in Bangladesh.

I may be a pagan infidel, but I am not your enemy, and I understand your pain.


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## asad71

DRAY said:


> This part in bold I was not aware of, so the creation of Bangladesh and Bengali nationalism was actually imposed by an *extreme minority of Bengalis* on hapless general population of Bangladesh!! That sounds logical though as "*around 55 % people in Bangladesh are of foreign origin* ( Arab, Persia, Afghanistan, Turkey, Yemen, Abyssinia, Ethiopia, Central Asia etc.). Around 15 % people are mixed and around 30 % people are converted Muslim majority being from Buddhists instead of Hindus." -- as per @Md Akmal .
> 
> With such a large majority of non-ethnically-Bengali population, *Bangladesh should not be know as a country of Bengalis, the extreme minority of Bengalis are creating their unfair hegemony in Bangladesh by falsely imposing the "Bengali" identity tag on Bangladesh, *and this again calls for immediate rejection of Bengali language, literature, culture, and identity, including the name of the country* 'Bangla'desh*, because the name *'Bangla'desh* automatically gives unfair rights to extreme minority Bengalis vis-a-vis a large majority of non-ethnically-Bengali population. I smell a revolution in the air, and wonder what will happen to Bengali lovers like @Anubis and @BDforever and also @IamBengali , and what about @DarkPrince what is his position?
> 
> But will the new country emerging after the revolution by replacing erstwhile 'Bangla'desh will remain a separate sovereign country, or it will go back to its roots as *East Pakistan*?
> 
> I was also wondering how many of you are not Bengalis or not pure Bengalis and suffering with the 'imposed' Bengali identity, I know @The Snow Queen is not, but what about the rest? kindly reply:
> 
> @khair_ctg @the just @aazidane @Skies @asad71 @MBI Munshi@Md Akmal @Saiful Islam



1.BD may be seen as a bridgehead of Islam in a region of conflicting faiths. What began as conversion of Arabs/semi-Arabs in the coastal belt during the life time of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) expanded into the Muslim Sultanate of Arakan and the Muslim suzerainty over the delta.

2. History tells us that Islam is an expanding faith.The concepts of equality,brotherhood,social justice and economic fair-play attract converts easily. To that end Muslim Bengal/BD/Bengali Muslim nation will expand geographically. That is why Burmese Buddhists and Indian Hindus fear Bengali Muslims.

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## dray

asad71 said:


> 1.BD may be seen as a bridgehead of Islam in a region of conflicting faiths. What began as conversion of Arabs/semi-Arabs in the coastal belt during the life time of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) expanded into the Muslim Sultanate of Arakan and the Muslim suzerainty over the delta.
> 
> 2. History tells us that Islam is an expanding faith.The concepts of equality,brotherhood,social justice and economic fair-play attract converts easily. *To that end Muslim Bengal/BD/Bengali Muslim nation will expand geographically.* That is why Burmese Buddhists and Indian Hindus fear Bengali Muslims.




Yes, I have heard that the land-mass in the Bay of Bengal area is actually expanding because of the soil deposits from the rivers.

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## The Snow Queen

DRAY said:


> Just saying that you are one of the majority Bangladeshis who belong to the Arab, Persia, Afghanistan, Turkey, Yemen, Abyssinia, Ethiopia, Central Asia origin as stated by @Md Akmal , and suffering with the Bengali identity falsely imposed by the extreme minority Bengalis (as stated by @khair_ctg ) who created the Bengali hegemony in Bangladesh.
> I may be a pagan infidel, but I am not your enemy, and I understand your pain.



Yes, my family does have Central Asian and Afghan roots but can't say that for everyone. And most people in fact don't look like they have foreign origins, most especially the poor and most of our people are poor... So that explains why... We are diverse people and have many people with different looks. I mean, what does a typical Bengali even look like? Can you explain? 

And, I am a Bangladeshi not a Bengali. We are Bangladeshis.

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## dray

*


The Snow Queen said:



And, I am a Bangladeshi not a Bengali. We are Bangladeshis.

Click to expand...

*

Exactly that's the point I am highlighting, the Bengali identity must go with all its baggage to establish the Bangladeshi identity.

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## The Snow Queen

@DRAY And why don't you say how Bengalis exactly looks like?


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## queerbait

Joe Shearer said:


> Dim-wittery unbounded.
> 
> 
> Nagari itself is a derivative of Brahmi. Getting away from Bengali script to the Devnagari derived Hindi script is as complete a piece of nonsense as can be imagined.
> There are half-baked conclusions being drawn from the records available of the Bengali language.
> The Bengali script existed before the Bengali language. It was used as a common script all over eastern India and was not peculiar to Bengali. Far from it.
> Some fairly stupid commentators have jumped to the conclusion that the use of a similar script in Assamese, and in other eastern languages, indicates that those languages were derived from Bengali. Not so. They were all, including Bengali, derived from a common source, Magadhi Prakrit.
> Bengali emerged first, in the eleventh to thirteenth centuries, and the early phases overlapped with the collapse of the Sena kingdom and the introduction of first, a province of the Delhi Sultanate, next, an independent Sultanate, whose princes had the khutba read in their name.
> Early Bengali acquired loan words very early, by the 14th century, but for nearly four centuries, during the 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th centuries, it developed within itself, in association with other cognate languages also at that time slowly going away from Magadhi Prakrit.
> From the 14th to the 18th centuries, till the British burst onto the scene, there was an increasing use of Persian at court. This was Persian, not Persianised Bengali.
> There was an increased use of Persian words by all classes of society, not just the courtier and administrative classes.
> There were sporadic instances of the use of right-to-left script during this period, but nothing on the scale of a mass movement.
> The British put their own twist on things; they surveyed and 'rationalised' the language. That they 'sanskritised' the language is not impossible, but is highly improbable.
> It seems rather more accurate to ascribe the 'sanskritisation' of the language, if it occurred, to the period immediately following the British political advent, and to look to the generations of Bengali middle-class promoters of the Bengal Renaissance for its main promoters.
> 
> Ironically, this is called sanskritisation, whereas it was already a hybridised language that was used as a base for the elimination of loan words. It is moot whether the process should be called sanskritisation or de-Persianisation.
> The reaction to this was the movement known as Musulmani Bangla. This was short-lived, in the 19th century, and commencement of the 20th century, and it seems that most of the Bengali population, irrespective of religion or location, used a hybridised spoken language and a sanskritised written language. Over time, the differences between spoken and written language disappeared; they converged and the written form became a modified version of the spoken.
> It was at this stage of development that partition took place. The language riots firmly underlined the commitment of the educated classes to the Bengali language proper, indirectly, to the script as well.
> 
> IT WAS THIS TABULA RASA THAT IS THE STARTING POINT FOR THE PRESENT THREAD.



I think this post alone answers all the misconceptions floating around.

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## dray

The Snow Queen said:


> @DRAY And why don't you say how Bengalis exactly looks like?



They look like Bengalis dear, and Bangladeshis look like Bangladeshis.


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## Joe Shearer

DRAY said:


> They look like Bengalis dear, and Bangladeshis look like Bangladeshis.



@DRAY , I think you should leave it to them to figure out for themselves.

If they are so refined and sensitive that they are aware that they are Bangladeshi, not Bengali, they don't need help in figuring out how Bangladeshis look, and how Bengalis look. They already know.

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## asad71

DRAY said:


> Exactly that's the point I am highlighting, the Bengali identity must go with all its baggage to establish the Bangladeshi identity.


Not really.Arabs,Nigerians,Bosnians,Turks, Indonesians - all retain their indigenous identity while belonging to the Ummah. We will continue to be Bengalees but Bengalee Muslims. There is no conflict between the two as far as-Muslims are concerned.

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## Md Akmal

Joe Shearer said:


> @DRAY , I think you should leave it to them to figure out for themselves.
> 
> If they are so refined and sensitive that they are aware that they are Bangladeshi, not Bengali, they don't need help in figuring out how Bangladeshis look, and how Bengalis look. They already know.


 
@ Definitely, we are Bangladeshi first and then Bengali. We always wants a separate identity between the Bengalise of West Bengal and Bengalise of East Bengal.

@ Finally, what I was trying to argue that majority of our people are muslim migrated from Northern India and other areas of Central and Middle East.

@ As I have said ealier also that blood matters a lot on human behaviour. I have keenly observed the attitude and behaviour of our Bengali muslim people of different areas and districts. There are lot of differences in food habits also. There are differences in languages.
Sylheti - "Amar bones shadi hoia giache".
Chittagong - "Chale khushbo nai".
Noakhali - " I no jhai tum".
Dhakai Kutti - " Ek dom khotum khoira demu".

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## dray

asad71 said:


> Not really.Arabs,Nigerians,Bosnians,Turks, Indonesians - all retain their indigenous identity while belonging to the Ummah. We will continue to be Bengalees but Bengalee Muslims. There is no conflict between the two as far as-Muslims are concerned.



You are an old man, so you might still have some weakness towards the Bengali identity, as I can see you have voted against the motion, but new generation of Bangladeshis want to discard Bengali identity as it is deeply linked to and shared by pagans, and the young ones are the future of Bangalah, so you may be among the last of Bengalis there.

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## The Snow Queen

@DRAY You seem like, you are affected by Bangladeshis calling themselves "Bangladeshi" first, not "Bengali". I can already tell that you are emotional about it, by the way you are acting. Why so? What's the matter with you? Is there anything by which you are offended?


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## dray

The Snow Queen said:


> @DRAY You seem like, you are affected by Bangladeshis calling themselves "Bangladeshi" first, not "Bengali". I can already tell that you are emotional about it, by the way you are acting. Why so? What's the matter with you? Is there anything by which you are offended?



Nope!! But why are you using a different colour font, it's difficult to read. Btw, if Indians oppose you, you have a problem, and when they support you, you have a problem!!!!! But I completely support you on this topic.


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## SarthakGanguly

Ok - enough of the talk. Please post the names of the following in Islamic land - 

1. Bangladesh = ?
2. Dhaka = ?
3. Chittagong = ?
4. Gopalganj = ?
5. Rangpur = ?

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## INDIC

SarthakGanguly said:


> Ok - enough of the talk. Please post the names of the following in Islamic land -
> 
> 1. Bangladesh = ?
> 2. Dhaka = ?
> 3. Chittagong = ?
> 4. Gopalganj = ?
> 5. Rangpur = ?



6. Brahmanbaria
7.Lakshmipur
8.Kishoreganj
9.Manikganj
8.Munshiganj
9. Narayanganj
10. Mymensingh
11.Narsingdi

River like Meghna, Jamuna, Padma.

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## DRaisinHerald

SarthakGanguly said:


> Ok - enough of the talk. Please post the names of the following in Islamic land -
> 
> 1. Bangladesh = ?
> 2. Dhaka = ?
> 3. Chittagong = ?
> 4. Gopalganj = ?
> 5. Rangpur = ?



1. Al-mamlakah al-Bongliyyah al awamiyah
2. Riyal
3. Kalagong
4. Gopalbaal
5. Berang

Beware: you might need to be Punjabi to understand half of these ..

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## SarthakGanguly

@aazidane @kalu_miah @MBI Munshi and others - please give your alternate names mentioned before.

@Md Akmal - Please bring your friends if you can and reply.

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## dray

SarthakGanguly said:


> Ok - enough of the talk. Please post the names of the following in Islamic land -
> 
> 1. Bangladesh = ?
> 2. Dhaka = ?
> 3. Chittagong = ?
> 4. Gopalganj = ?
> 5. Rangpur = ?





INDIC said:


> 6. Brahmanbaria
> 7.Lakshmipur
> 8.Kishoreganj
> 9.Manikganj
> 8.Munshiganj
> 9. Narayanganj
> 10. Mymensingh
> 11.Narsingdi
> 
> River like Meghna, Jamuna, Padma.





DRaisinHerald said:


> 1. Al-mamlakah al-Bongliyyah al awamiyah
> 2. Riyal
> 3. Kalagong
> 4. Gopalbaal
> 5. Berang
> 
> Beware: you might need to be Punjabi to understand half of these ..



After going strongly for the motion for 22 pages, suddenly I feel our neighbours are becoming confused and shaky, kind of getting a cold feet, we have to push them to make the leap of faith.

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## Md Akmal

INDIC said:


> 6. Brahmanbaria
> 7.Lakshmipur
> 8.Kishoreganj
> 9.Manikganj
> 8.Munshiganj
> 9. Narayanganj
> 10. Mymensingh
> 11.Narsingdi
> 
> River like Meghna, Jamuna, Padma.


 
@ For Mymensingh, it was changed to "Momenshahi" during Pakistan period. Still the Cantt in Mymensingh is called Momenshahi. The Cadet College is called Momenshahi instead of Mymensingh.

@ I am sure, "Ganj" and "Pur" is either a Persi or Urdu word.

@ Many names were changed during Pakistan's times like, Rajendrapur was changed to Gazipur.

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## INDIC

Md Akmal said:


> @ Finally, what I was trying to argue that majority of our people are muslim migrated from Central India and other areas of Central and Middle East.



@rmi5 @Prince of Persia Have you heard anything nicer than this.

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## dray

DRaisinHerald said:


> 1. Al-mamlakah al-Bongliyyah al awamiyah
> 2. Riyal
> 3. Kalagong
> 4. Gopalbaal
> 5. Berang
> 
> Beware: you might need to be Punjabi to understand half of these ..



Wonderful suggestions!! Especially the first one.

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## INDIC

Md Akmal said:


> @ I am sure, "Ganj" and "Pur" is either a Persi or Urdu word.



Pur has Sanskrit origin, ganj can't say.

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## SarthakGanguly

Md Akmal said:


> @ For Mymensingh, it was changed to "Momenshahi" during Pakistan period. Still the Cantt in Mymensingh is called Momenshahi. The Cadet College is called Momenshahi instead of Mymensingh.
> 
> @ I am sure, "Ganj" and "Pur" is either a Persi or Urdu word.
> 
> @ Many names were changed during Pakistan's times like, Rajendrapur was changed to Gazipur.


Good.  What about the rest? A half hearted approach won't do justice.

Pur comes from Puri meaning city. Origin - Sanskrit  Stinks

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## DRaisinHerald

Md Akmal said:


> @ I am sure, "Ganj" and "Pur" is either a Persi or Urdu word.



We say ganj to mean bald  (Urdu/Punjabi)

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## nForce

wannna be arabs..typical identity crisis.. well not seeing them for the first time...

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## Dillinger

SarthakGanguly said:


> Good.  What about the rest? A half hearted approach won't do justice.
> 
> Pur comes from Puri meaning city. Origin - Sanskrit  Stinks



I wonder though, once the deed is done, will the cacophony be louder or more mute when we get down to the evil kaffir genocidal attack?

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## INDIC

DRaisinHerald said:


> We say ganj to mean bald  (Urdu/Punjabi)



In childhood I read a comic book named _Takla Shaitan_.


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## Shardul.....the lion

I voted yes....

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## INDIC

Shardul.....the lion said:


> I voted yes....



I also voted yes.

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## Saiful Islam

SarthakGanguly said:


> Good.  What about the rest? A half hearted approach won't do justice.
> 
> Pur comes from Puri meaning city. Origin - Sanskrit  Stinks




Dhaka - Jahangir
Sylhet - Jalalabad (some people still refer it to as that) 
Chittagong - Islamabad and or Bayzad Bastami (now only an area in CTG is called Bayzad) 
Rajshahi is Rajshahi
Even if you go 

Most of these names were created during the Bengal Sultanate, excluding Dhaka's name. For example my district called Sunamganj was part of 'Muazzamabad' and is where most of BD's famous awliyas settled.

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## dray

Saiful Islam said:


> Dhaka - Jahangir
> Sylhet - Jalalabad (some people still refer it to as that)
> Chittagong - Islamabad and or Bayzad Bastami (now only an area in CTG is called Bayzad)
> Rajshahi is Rajshahi
> Even if you go
> 
> Most of these names were created during the Bengal Sultanate, excluding Dhaka's name. For example my district called Sunamganj was part of 'Muazzamabad' and is where most of BD's famous awliyas settled.



Any suggestion for the country's name?

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## SarthakGanguly

Saiful Islam said:


> Dhaka - Jahangir
> Sylhet - Jalalabad (some people still refer it to as that)
> Chittagong - Islamabad and or Bayzad Bastami (now only an area in CTG is called Bayzad)
> Rajshahi is Rajshahi
> Even if you go
> 
> Most of these names were created during the Bengal Sultanate, excluding Dhaka's name. For example my district called Sunamganj was part of 'Muazzamabad' and is where most of BD's famous awliyas settled.


So that pretty much covers it all. 

We are making progress 

Now let's discuss the name of your country. What will it be?
Also the flag?



Dillinger said:


> I wonder though, once the deed is done, will the cacophony be louder or more mute when we get down to the evil kaffir genocidal attack?


Hard to say. Xenophobia is a disease... so not sure if anything is going to suffice...

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## Saiful Islam

DRAY said:


> Any suggestion for the country's name?



UAB, United Arab Bangladesh/Bangladeshistan/Bengalistan/Akhandistan Bharatistan/Mujibistan/RAWistan



DRaisinHerald said:


> Oh c'mon, the Arabic script is the most beautiful there is! Even Indians can't deny that
> 
> Hey, I actually I like the Hebrew script as well for some reason, especially the one found in their Torah scrolls.
> 
> So what calligraphic style will it be? Naskh or Nastaliq?




Aramaic or Syriac.

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## The Snow Queen

Saiful Islam said:


> UAB, United Arab Bangladesh/Bangladeshistan/Bengalistan/Akhandistan Bharatistan/Mujibistan/RAWistan



Hahahaha! LOL


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## SarthakGanguly

Saiful Islam said:


> UAB, United Arab Bangladesh/Bangladeshistan/Bengalistan/Akhandistan Bharatistan/Mujibistan/RAWistan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aramaic or Syriac.


You think this is a joke?  This thread alone can change the taqdeer of your country...

Please answer seriously - about the name of your country...

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## Saiful Islam

SarthakGanguly said:


> You think this is a joke?  This thread alone can change the taqdeer of your country...
> 
> Please answer seriously - about the name of your country...




Okay, Gandhistan it is to as a sign to show our love to Undura Gandhi


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## Joe Shearer

Md Akmal said:


> @ Definitely, we are Bangladeshi first and then Bengali. We always wants a separate identity between the Bengalise of West Bengal and Bengalise of East Bengal.



I was not referring to the quest for identity for either Bangladeshi or for west Bengal residents, but to the idiocy of those who claim to be able to distinguish between the two, rather than seeking to highlight distinctive features.



Md Akmal said:


> @ Finally, what I was trying to argue that majority of our people are muslim migrated from Northern India and other areas of Central and Middle East.



A recurring theme in Bangladeshi accounts and histories, but difficult to support. This needs a thread by itself, and it is not worthwhile going into detail just at this point, in this thread.



Md Akmal said:


> @ As I have said ealier also that blood matters a lot on human behaviour. I have keenly observed the attitude and behaviour of our Bengali muslim people of different areas and districts. There are lot of differences in food habits also. There are differences in languages.
> Sylheti - "Amar bones shadi hoia giache".
> Chittagong - "Chale khushbo nai".
> Noakhali - " I no jhai tum".
> Dhakai Kutti - " Ek dom khotum khoira demu".



There is really not much to be said about such ephemerea: I am sorry to be so dismissive, but it is difficult to link blood and differences in attitude, behaviour, food habits and dialectal variations. This is a blind alley. It builds identity, it doesn't predict any of the characteristics listed.



DRAY said:


> Nope!! But why are you using a different colour font, it's difficult to read. Btw, if Indians oppose you, you have a problem, and when they support you, you have a problem!!!!! But I completely support you on this topic.



Either the poster has discovered how to change font colours, or the poster wishes to be in stealth mode, but with an open window.

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## DRaisinHerald

The Snow Queen said:


> My grandfather was a Pashtun born in Pakistan.



You're partially Pakistani? Interesting, how come you decided to stick with BDesh after 71? A lot of Pakistanis residing in East Pakistan at the time, as well as Biharis and some Bengalis migrated to Pakistan. They were welcomed with open arms; and surely your family (supposing they share your views) couldn't have supported the independence movement?

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## Sugarcane

So, 60% are supporting this change - close the thread and file petition.

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## khair_ctg

DRAY said:


> I was also wondering how many of you are not Bengalis or not pure Bengalis and suffering with the 'imposed' Bengali identity, I know @The Snow Queen is not, but what about the rest? kindly reply


the term "Bangladeshi" cannot be a substitute for a "Bengali". not accounting for West Bengal, Bangladesh by itself does not solely represent even Bengali Muslims as a religious-ethnic group. there are other groups of people who are Bangladeshis. 

so if you interact with a Bangladeshi, it is very ignorant of you to assume he is Bengali Muslim for example. even if he is a Bengali Muslim, the concept of "Bengali" to a Muslim is more region-based. but for a Bengali Hindu the concept of being "Bengali" means having an "un-corrupted" lineage and following a purist Hindu Bengali culture or Bangaliyana. 

for a Bengali Muslim, being "Bengali" represents a melting pot of various Muslim groups who came together in the region over time. whereas a Bengali Muslim considers the practise of languages and scripts like Farsi, Urdu and Arabic, and Nastaliq and Naskh, as enriching and fulfilling for Bengal and of being "Bengali", a purist Bengali Hindu considers such influence as corrupting. also during colonial period, because Hindus gained the authority to define what is official "Bengali" language and what is "Bengali" culture, only Hindu culture became "Bengali" culture and Bengal's Muslim culture became just Muslim culture

now about Bangladesh, it is an entity that was created by Muslims of various regions of then-British India who were later considered different ethnicities. however probably all these different subcontinental Muslim ethnicities were just "Muslims" before all these classifications

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## khair_ctg

DRaisinHerald said:


> You're partially Pakistani? Interesting, how come you decided to stick with BDesh after 71? A lot of Pakistanis residing in East Pakistan at the time, as well as Biharis and some Bengalis migrated to Pakistan. They were welcomed with open arms; and surely your family (supposing they share your views) *couldn't have supported the independence movement*?


even Awami League officially and Sheikh Mujib did not support any so-called "independence" movement

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## nForce

khair_ctg said:


> even Awami League officially and Sheikh Mujib did not support any so-called "independence" movement



I wonder who did...the country did not get create just out of thin air, isn't it?

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## khair_ctg

Md Akmal said:


> @ Definitely, we are Bangladeshi first and then Bengali. We always wants a separate identity between the Bengalise of West Bengal and Bengalise of East Bengal.
> 
> @ Finally, what I was trying to argue that majority of our people are muslim migrated from Northern India and other areas of Central and Middle East.
> 
> @ As I have said ealier also that blood matters a lot on human behaviour. I have keenly observed the attitude and behaviour of our Bengali muslim people of different areas and districts. There are lot of differences in food habits also. There are differences in languages.
> *Sylheti - "Amar bones shadi hoia giache".
> Chittagong - "Chale khushbo nai".
> Noakhali - " I no jhai tum".
> Dhakai Kutti - " Ek dom khotum khoira demu"*.


with all due respect Md Akmal bhai i think you mixed up some of these 



The Snow Queen said:


> Yes, my family does have Central Asian and Afghan roots but can't say that for everyone. And most people in fact don't look like they have foreign origins, most especially the poor and most of our people are poor... So that explains why... We are diverse people and have many people with different looks. I mean, what does a typical Bengali even look like? Can you explain?
> 
> Here are some Bangladeshis:
> Shawon Rocking - Profile Pictures | Facebook
> Imran Hossain Jeetu | Facebook
> Lõvê Bïrd Réhã | Facebook
> 
> What do they look like to you?
> 
> And, I am a Bangladeshi not a Bengali. We are Bangladeshis.


i don't like this posting of random profiles like this. and what type of names are those?



Saiful Islam said:


> UAB, United Arab Bangladesh/Bangladeshistan/Bengalistan/Akhandistan Bharatistan/Mujibistan/RAWistan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aramaic or Syriac.


what about Indurastan? to commemorate the person who spearheaded the Akhand Bharat invasion into East/PakBangladesh?


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## The Snow Queen

DRaisinHerald said:


> You're partially Pakistani? Interesting, how come you decided to stick with BDesh after 71? A lot of Pakistanis residing in East Pakistan at the time, as well as Biharis and some Bengalis migrated to Pakistan. They were welcomed with open arms; and surely your family (supposing they share your views) couldn't have supported the independence movement?



Me stick for BD during 71? I wasn't even born during that time. Well yeah my Grandfather used to travel a lot... And moving to Pakistan just didn't happen... I don't know why...




khair_ctg said:


> i don't like this posting of random profiles like this. and what type of names are those?



I don't know... Just really random.


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## SarthakGanguly

khair_ctg said:


> with all due respect Md Akmal bhai i think you mixed up some of these
> 
> 
> i don't like this posting of random profiles like this. and what type of names are those?
> 
> 
> what about Indurastan? to commemorate the person who spearheaded the Akhand Bharat invasion into East/PakBangladesh?


Sorry, in the commotion we forgot about you. My apologies.

We have already got the names for all major cities having Hindu names. The last one is the name of your country and design of your flag. Saiful was just taking this too lightly 

So now I humbly request you to propose an alternate name for your watan... You can also suggest a new flag.


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## dray

Saiful Islam said:


> UAB, United Arab Bangladesh/Bangladeshistan/Bengalistan/Akhandistan Bharatistan/Mujibistan/RAWistan



Though I personally liked the name"*Al-mamlakah al-Bongliyyah al awamiyah*" suggested by @drraisinherald for replacing the pagan name of Bangladesh,  I am suggesting some smaller names like "*Khilafatshahi*" or "*Rashidunshahi*" to replace the name of Bangladesh, and I am really serious about my suggestion and want your opinion on this. Please ignore the suggestions if these names unintentionally hurt any religious feelings. I intentionally avoided names ending with "Stan" to differentiate it from other sub-continent countries like Hindustan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.

@khair_ctg @the just @aazidane @Skies @asad71 @MBI Munshi @Md Akmal @Saiful Islam @The Snow Queen
What do you think?


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## Joe Shearer

khair_ctg said:


> the term "Bangladeshi" cannot be a substitute for a "Bengali". not accounting for West Bengal, Bangladesh by itself does not solely represent even Bengali Muslims as a religious-ethnic group. there are other groups of people who are Bangladeshis.
> 
> so if you interact with a Bangladeshi, it is very ignorant of you to assume he is Bengali Muslim for example. even if he is a Bengali Muslim, the concept of "Bengali" to a Muslim is more region-based. but for a Bengali Hindu the concept of being "Bengali" means having an "un-corrupted" lineage and following a purist Hindu Bengali culture or Bangaliyana.
> 
> for a Bengali Muslim, being "Bengali" represents a melting pot of various Muslim groups who came together in the region over time. whereas a Bengali Muslim considers the practise of languages and scripts like Farsi, Urdu and Arabic, and Nastaliq and Naskh, as enriching and fulfilling for Bengal and of being "Bengali", a purist Bengali Hindu considers such influence as corrupting. also during colonial period, because Hindus gained the authority to define what is official "Bengali" language and what is "Bengali" culture, only Hindu culture became "Bengali" culture and Bengal's Muslim culture became just Muslim culture
> 
> now about Bangladesh, it is an entity that was created by Muslims of various regions of then-British India who were later considered different ethnicities. however probably all these different subcontinental Muslim ethnicities were just "Muslims" before all these classifications



I don't entirely agree, but your posts have been refreshingly free of cant and hypocrisy, and always informative. There have been others - @Md Akmal, when he is not having a rush of blood to his head , @kalu_miah (sporadically) - but your posts with the greatest consistency.

Thank you.

P.S. I broadly agree with most of what you say. The bit in red above seems a little over the top, although there are elements of truth in it; perhaps represented in less breathless and dramatic fashion, I might have found myself going along with it.


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## Anubis

Aren't most places in Saudi Arabia still called by the names used by pre-Islamic pagan civilizations there??


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## asad71

DRAY said:


> Though I personally liked the name"*Al-mamlakah al-Bongliyyah al awamiyah*" suggested by @drraisinherald for replacing the pagan name of Bangladesh,  I am suggesting some smaller names like "*Khilafatshahi*" or "*Rashidunshahi*" to replace the name of Bangladesh, and I am really serious about my suggestion and want your opinion on this. Please ignore the suggestions if these names unintentionally hurt any religious feelings. I intentionally avoided names ending with "Stan" to differentiate it from other sub-continent countries like Hindustan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.
> 
> @khair_ctg @the just @aazidane @Skies @asad71 @MBI Munshi @Md Akmal @Saiful Islam @The Snow Queen
> What do you think?


Actually the name"Bansam" has already been in circulation. Bansam will include P/bangla, BD and NE.


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## dray

Anubis said:


> Aren't most places in Saudi Arabia still called by the names used by pre-Islamic pagan civilizations there??



Bangladeshis are supposed to take only the good things from Saudi Arabia, not the bad things. 



asad71 said:


> Actually the name"Bansam" has already been in circulation. Bansam will include P/bangla, BD and NE.



Bansam -- What is the meaning of the name? 

And I suggest you do the name change with the piece of land you already have, you don't want to wait for it till the Judgement Day, do you?

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## asad71

DRAY said:


> Bangladeshis are supposed to take only the good things from Saudi Arabia, not the bad things.
> 
> 
> 
> Bansam -- What is the meaning of the name?
> 
> And I suggest you do the name change with the piece of land you already have, you don't want to wait for it till the Judgement Day, do you?


Ban= Bangladesh. Sam=Assam.


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## notsuperstitious

asad71 said:


> Ban= Bangladesh. Sam=Assam.


 
I see you are again attending your gazwa e hind book reading club...

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## dray

asad71 said:


> Ban= Bangladesh. Sam=Assam.



See, we are discussing something serious here, something that is within the realms of possibility, I gave you a couple of nice suggestions in previous page, and I expect you to be serious on this topic instead of making fun of it. If you somehow want to stick to at least some parts of the previous name, then what about Banshahi? 

And again, I request you to be objective and practical here, the young generation of BD members seems to be more realists than you.


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## Ammyy

asad71 said:


> Actually the name"Bansam" has already been in circulation. Bansam will include P/bangla, BD and NE.



You cant even defeat our police forces then how will you make reality of that joke you just posted ???

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## Md Akmal

SarthakGanguly said:


> Sorry, in the commotion we forgot about you. My apologies.
> 
> We have already got the names for all major cities having Hindu names. The last one is the name of your country and design of your flag. Saiful was just taking this too lightly
> 
> So now I humbly request you to propose an alternate name for your watan... You can also suggest a new flag.


 
@ I have no objection about the name of our country, " _BANGLADESH _". But I have a serious objection about our national anthem ? I am sure it was superimposed. How come a poem written in 1905 or 1906 after the partition of of Bengal (1905) is made as our National Anthem.

@ People have an objection about our national flag. Exactly I donnot remember but I heard that it is related with Hindu religion.


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## Saiful Islam

DRAY said:


> Though I personally liked the name"*Al-mamlakah al-Bongliyyah al awamiyah*" suggested by @drraisinherald for replacing the pagan name of Bangladesh,  I am suggesting some smaller names like "*Khilafatshahi*" or "*Rashidunshahi*" to replace the name of Bangladesh, and I am really serious about my suggestion and want your opinion on this. Please ignore the suggestions if these names unintentionally hurt any religious feelings. I intentionally avoided names ending with "Stan" to differentiate it from other sub-continent countries like Hindustan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.
> 
> @khair_ctg @the just @aazidane @Skies @asad71 @MBI Munshi @Md Akmal @Saiful Islam @The Snow Queen
> What do you think?




I think you hit the spot with those names, what do you say we rename Cox Bazar to Dubai-pur?


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## The Snow Queen

DRAY said:


> And again, I request you to be objective and practical here, the young generation of BD members seems to be more realists than you.



Is @asad71 an old man?


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## Rover

asad71 said:


> Ban= Bangladesh. Sam=Assam.


Dear old man, the ageing process seems to be taken it's toll on you. In case you haven't heard the news recently, Assamese aren't particularly fond of Bangladeshis.


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## trident2010

just lol


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## khair_ctg

Joe Shearer said:


> *I don't entirely agree, but your posts have been refreshingly free of cant and hypocrisy, and always informative. There have been others - @Md Akmal, when he is not having a rush of blood to his head , @kalu_miah (sporadically) - but your posts with the greatest consistency.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> P.S. I broadly agree with most of what you say. The bit in red above seems a little over the top, although there are elements of truth in it; perhaps represented in less breathless and dramatic fashion, I might have found myself going along with it.*


what do you call this? "butter up" is too insufficient


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## asad71

DRAY said:


> See, we are discussing something serious here, something that is within the realms of possibility, I gave you a couple of nice suggestions in previous page, and I expect you to be serious on this topic instead of making fun of it. If you somehow want to stick to at least some parts of the previous name, then what about Banshahi?
> 
> And again, I request you to be objective and practical here, the young generation of BD members seems to be more realists than you.



1.As far as we know Bansam was a CIA project of the '60s. Now it is believed the Chinese support this. Late Minister for life, Mahmud Ali of Pakistan used to bean an enthusiastic supporter of this concept.Ali was from Assam and was a Secretary of Jinnah.FYI, the coup leaders of Aug 1975 when Mujib was killed, had declared their eventual goal to be attainment of Bansam.

2. Bansam was not my idea. I am quite content with Bangladesh. When eventually the Muslim majority peoples of this sub-region decide to unite, they will find a name to describe their confederation/federation/union.


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## nForce

asad71 said:


> 1.As far as we know Bansam was a CIA project of the '60s. Now it is believed the Chinese support this. Late Minister for life, Mahmud Ali of Pakistan used to bean an enthusiastic supporter of this concept.Ali was from Assam and was a Secretary of Jinnah.FYI, the coup leaders of Aug 1975 when Mujib was killed, had declared their eventual goal to be attainment of Bansam.
> 
> 2. Bansam was not my idea. I am quite content with Bangladesh. When eventually the Muslim majority peoples of this sub-region decide to unite, they will find a name to describe their confederation/federation/union.



I love good stories.. any link ?


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## dray

The Snow Queen said:


> Is @asad71 an old man?




Yes dear, he is alleged to be a 'military professional' who 'fought' in 1971 war of liberation, but on whose side that I don't know, several queries & questions in this regard went unanswered.

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## dray

asad71 said:


> 1.As far as we know Bansam was a CIA project of the '60s. Now it is believed the Chinese support this. Late Minister for life, Mahmud Ali of Pakistan used to bean an enthusiastic supporter of this concept.Ali was from Assam and was a Secretary of Jinnah.FYI, the coup leaders of Aug 1975 when Mujib was killed, had declared their eventual goal to be attainment of Bansam.
> 
> 2. Bansam was not my idea. I am quite content with Bangladesh. When eventually the Muslim majority peoples of this sub-region decide to unite, they will find a name to describe their confederation/federation/union.




You should not believe in fairy tales at this age, it looks silly.

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## asad71

DRAY said:


> You should not believe in fairy tales at this age, it looks silly.


If anybody is being silly here it is you. Why can't you get into a discussion positively without getting into tantrums? Such things are not reported in media, but are known. The Bansam concept of the 15 Aug Coup leaders had cropped up in our media. If you have time/energy you can Google. Or you can ask those leaders who still alive. Some I believe are "hiding" in India. Again according to our media.


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## dray

asad71 said:


> If anybody is being silly here it is you. Why can't you get into a discussion positively without getting into tantrums? Such things are not reported in media, but are known. The Bansam concept of the 15 Aug Coup leaders had cropped up in our media. If you have time/energy you can Google. Or you can ask those leaders who still alive. Some I believe are "hiding" in India. Again according to our media.



No, I am not denying that there could be lunatics who believe that Bangladesh can actually take India's territory, but that can't happen in reality, any such effort by anybody will be crushed with heavy boots. That's why I asked you to not believe in any such stories, it looks silly. 

However, this is off-topic, we have a more potent topic at hand here.

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## asad71

DRAY said:


> No, I am not denying that there could be lunatics who believe that Bangladesh can actually take India's territory, but that can't happen in reality, any such effort by anybody will be crushed with heavy boots. That's why I asked you to not believe in any such stories, it looks silly.
> 
> However, this is off-topic, we have a more potent topic at hand here.




No, this is not off topic, although a diversion. We, Bengalee Muslims, feel that we need to retrieve our original sovereign entity that was lost on 23 June 1757 through conspiracy. How that will happen we can't say now. Will it be because of heavier boots from the north, or though an internal dismemberment only time will tell.But we dream of this.

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## dray

asad71 said:


> No, this is not off topic, although a diversion. We, Bengalee Muslims, feel that we need to retrieve our original sovereign entity that was lost on 23 June 1757 through conspiracy. How that will happen we can't say now. Will it be because of heavier boots from the north, or though an internal dismemberment only time will tell.*But we dream of this*.



Okay, keep 'dreaming' about this.


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## The Snow Queen

DRAY said:


> You should not believe in fairy tales at this age, it looks silly.



Do you even know what the original fairy tales are like!? They are not like those kiddie Disney Princess movies at all! Most original fairy tales of the past were often full of macabre and gruesome twists and endings. And they were incredibly cannibalistic, paedophiliac and necrophiliac! I am a Disney fan but at least I have knowledge about fairy tales! 

I especially find "Sleeping Beauty" the most disturbing! I mean the original Perrault's version. The Grimm Brother's version is okay... So is Disney's adaptation. They also made Disney movies from real life events like 'The Pocahontas" but Pocahontas never meets John Smith, actually she does but she was a child then, and she does indeed marry John Rolfe as shown in "Pocahontas 2". I love "Forzen" and it is based on Hans Christian Anderson's fairy tale "The Snow Queen" but I didn't get an opportunity to read it, yet. Maybe I will.

_"Hans Christian Andersen’s original version of The Snow Queen is a pretty dark tale and it doesn't translate easily into a film. For us the breakthrough came when we tried to give really human qualities to the Snow Queen. When we decided to make the Snow Queen Elsa and our protagonist Anna sisters, that gave a way to relate to the characters in a way that conveyed what each was going through and that would relate for today's audiences. This film has a lot of complicated characters and complicated relationships in it. There are times when Elsa does villainous things but because you understand where it comes from, from this desire to defend herself, you can always relate to her. 'Inspired by' means exactly that. There is snow and there is ice and there is a Queen, but other than that, we depart from it quite a bit. We do try to bring scope and the scale that you would expect but do it in a way that we can understand the characters and relate to them."_

— Producer Peter Del Vecho, on the difficulties adapting _The Snow Queen_

*The Disturbing Origins of 10 Famous Fairy Tales – Flavorwire

The REAL Stories Behind These Disney Movies Will Ruin Your Childhood*



asad71 said:


> No, this is not off topic, although a diversion. We, Bengalee Muslims, feel that we need to retrieve our original sovereign entity that was lost on 23 June 1757 through conspiracy.



Yes, that's what I was trying to say but no one understands!  They all so stupid and idiots! Humph!


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## Joe Shearer

khair_ctg said:


> what do you call this? ng"butter up" is too insufficient



Do not be impertinent. I don't compliment people without cause. Your remarks are immature and display a complete lack of dignity and self-respect, leave aside being utterly ill-mannered.

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## Screambowl

DRaisinHerald said:


> Oh c'mon, the Arabic script is the most beautiful there is! Even Indians can't deny that
> 
> Hey, I actually I like the Hebrew script as well for some reason, especially the one found in their Torah scrolls.
> 
> So what calligraphic style will it be? Naskh or Nastaliq?





The Snow Queen said:


> Should the people of Bangladesh really do away with Devanagari script of Bangla and go for Arabic/Persian script? To Islamise our Language and bring back our real roots of East Bengal? The way our forefathers used to write and maybe talk?
> 
> I have an idea that our first initiative should be to make a Petition. And perhaps, it is a small step to a big change! We want your opinions of all the people here, and then decide if we will make this Petition.
> 
> By the way, I myself cannot make this petition because I am scared to go for this all by myself and I don't know much about the History as some of you here knows... We need someone who is wise, intelligent and knowledgeable to make this Petition for us and can add it to the description of the Petition, which will be able to convince most people to sign.
> 
> I think Change.org and GoPetition are a good places to start.
> 
> Change.org - The world's platform for change
> 
> Petition Templates, Samples & Examples | GoPetition
> 
> @kalu_miah @MBI Munshi @aazidane @khair_ctg @Saiful Islam @Zahur Ahmed Chowdhury @kobiraaz
> 
> I probably have noticed some you guys here being huge supporters of this movement. Should we first start with a Petition?



A camel will not survive in sunderban delta and a bengal tiger will not survive in Sahara. Every script is related to a culture of that region. Religion is not culture or tradition. Don't make yourself slaves again. You have your own identity. 

People change their religion but cannot change their culture or tradition of living, because that is something nature gives to you. If you interfere you'll regret. Be wise not a fool.

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## khair_ctg

Anubis said:


> Aren't most places in Saudi Arabia still called by the names used by pre-Islamic pagan civilizations there??


in that way, aren't most Muslim cultural elements pre-Islamic and so, they were pagan or some other non-Muslim type?

maybe your Hindu zamindars should have followed your example by keeping the pre-colonial or pre-zamindari Muslim names then



Screambowl said:


> A camel will not survive in sunderban delta and a bengal tiger will not survive in Sahara. Every script is related to a culture of that region. Religion is not culture or tradition. Don't make yourself slaves again. You have your own identity.
> 
> People change their religion but cannot change their culture or tradition of living, because that is something nature gives to you. If you interfere you'll regret. Be wise not a fool.


it's none of your business even if Bangladeshis want to keep Tamil names or start eating Aztec food. 

Muslims of South Asia have an organic culture different from either the Dharmic religious communities, or Arabia or Persia


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## Anubis

khair_ctg said:


> in that way, aren't most Muslim cultural elements pre-Islamic and so, they were pagan or some other non-Muslim type?
> 
> maybe your Hindu zamindars should have followed your example by keeping the pre-colonial or pre-zamindari Muslim names then
> 
> 
> it's none of your business even if Bangladeshis want to keep Tamil names or start eating Aztec food.
> 
> Muslims of South Asia have an organic culture different from either the Dharmic religious communities, or Arabia or Persia



Or maybe the pre-Zamidari muslims should have followed your oh so idolized Arabic example and kept the pre-Muslim pagan names!

And exactly most Muslim cultural elements ARE pre-Islamic and of pagan and non-muslim origin!If the Arabs and the prophet himself never prescribed any such change for his homeland why are you so eager to change pagan names in Bangistan....i mean Bangladesh??
Mayer cheye mashir dorod beshi!

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## baajey

Anubis said:


> *Mayer cheye mashir dorod beshi*!




why is this thread still running ??


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## khair_ctg

Anubis said:


> Or maybe the pre-Zamidari muslims should have followed your oh so idolized Arabic example and kept the pre-Muslim pagan names!
> 
> And exactly most Muslim cultural elements ARE pre-Islamic and of pagan and non-muslim origin!If the Arabs and the prophet himself never prescribed any such change for his homeland why are you so eager to change pagan names in Bangistan....i mean Bangladesh??
> *Mayer cheye mashir dorod beshi!*


ma and masih i.e. messiah?

so you are saying the Muslims who settled here or converted to form the Muslim civilization SHOULDN'T have used their own names (which technically were still pre-Islamic whether they came from Arabia or Central Asia)? like when Dutch settlers used New Amsterdam for now-New York when they went there? so only the Muslims should have always used the Hindu/Dharmic names, and forgone their culture right? but the Hindus had the right to change the Muslim-era names? 

so do you think the Muslims had a right to establish entire empires and civilizations in the subcontinent that culminated in two sovereign (or supposed to be sovereign) nations that are Bangladesh and Pakistan, and a substantial minority population in India?

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## kalu_miah

khair_ctg said:


> ma and masih i.e. messiah?
> 
> so you are saying the Muslims who settled here or converted to form the Muslim civilization SHOULDN'T have used their own names (which technically were still pre-Islamic whether they came from Arabia or Central Asia)? like when Dutch settlers used New Amsterdam for now-New York when they went there? so only the Muslims should have always used the Hindu/Dharmic names, and forgone their culture right? but the Hindus had the right to change the Muslim-era names?
> 
> so do you think the Muslims had a right to establish entire empires and civilizations in the subcontinent that culminated in two sovereign (or supposed to be sovereign) nations that are Bangladesh and Pakistan, and a substantial minority population in India?



Collective brainwashing have worked wonders on our educated class, so much so, that they don't even know about their own history and roots and thus parrot the line Hindu Zamindars gave them since 1757. This is what happens to a people when they loose sovereignty or self rule. Enemy's make sure that you loose your cultural continuity and work overtime to make sure that you never get it back.

Hindu rule of Bengal ended in 1204, now with British help Hindu's got upper hand since 1757 and with British help they gave us only a small part of our land in 1947. Now they are working to do a slow motion extermination of the Muslim population of this landmass, using water terrorism and destabilization. Lets see how long our moron nation remains asleep, oblivious to what is happening to them.

This history book should be mandatory for all Bangladeshi high school students, it also needs a Bangla translation:
The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204–1760

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## jarves

The Snow Queen said:


> Yes, that's what I was trying to say but no one understands!  They all so stupid and idiots! Humph!


If you are talking about annexing NE and Assam from India then yeah you are stupid and idiot.You should actually think of saving lands of BD from India which we are annexing slowly instead of dreaming which is nearly impossible.

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## The Snow Queen

jarves said:


> If you are talking about annexing NE and Assam from India then yeah you are stupid and idiot.You should actually think of saving lands of BD from India which we are annexing slowly instead of dreaming which is nearly impossible.



Annexing!? Where did you get that? I am not into annexing and all those BS. Don't care about NE or Assam. And I don't think India is ever going to annex BD, it's not possible anymore!


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## jarves

The Snow Queen said:


> Annexing!? Where did you get that? I am not into annexing and all those BS. Don't care about NE or Assam. And I don't think India is ever going to annex BD, it's not possible anymore!


So what you were talking about?? indimating people of that land to join BD?? then you will termed as moron in my dictionary


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## The Snow Queen

jarves said:


> So what you were talking about?? indimating people of that land to join BD?? then you will termed as moron in my dictionary



Why the hell you are so stupid!? I am not talking about anyone! Or any lands! I am talking about establishing just our own Muslim identity in Bangladesh! And it won't have ANYTHING to do with India or what so ever!


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## Joe Shearer

kalu_miah said:


> Collective brainwashing have worked wonders on our educated class, so much so, that they don't even know about their own history and roots and thus parrot the line Hindu Zamindars gave them since 1757. This is what happens to a people when they loose sovereignty or self rule. Enemy's make sure that you loose your cultural continuity and work overtime to make sure that you never get it back.
> 
> Hindu rule of Bengal ended in 1204, now with British help Hindu's got upper hand since 1757 and with British help they gave us only a small part of our land in 1947. Now they are working to do a slow motion extermination of the Muslim population of this landmass, using water terrorism and destabilization. Lets see how long our moron nation remains asleep, oblivious to what is happening to them.
> 
> This history book should be mandatory for all Bangladeshi high school students, it also needs a Bangla translation:
> The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204–1760



Are you sure that you've read the book yourself? Even as early as my reading, it says things that would make any Bangla chauvinist terribly uncomfortable.


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## dray

kalu_miah said:


> Hindu rule of Bengal ended in 1204, now with British help Hindu's got upper hand since 1757 and with British help they gave us only a small part of our land in 1947.



You got your proportionate share of Bengal as per the religious demography of the landmass in 1947, after that we are not responsible for your population explosion, are we? Just because you had a problem to live with Hindus of India doesn't mean that you will get full share of Bengal and Bengali Hindus will go and jump in Bay of Bengal to give a pure Islamic nation. Now stop whining about this issue.

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## Anubis

khair_ctg said:


> ma and masih i.e. messiah?
> 
> *so you are saying the Muslims who settled here or converted to form the Muslim civilization SHOULDN'T have used their own names (which technically were still pre-Islamic whether they came from Arabia or Central Asia)*? like when Dutch settlers used New Amsterdam for now-New York when they went there? so only the Muslims should have always used the Hindu/Dharmic names, and forgone their culture right? but the Hindus had the right to change the Muslim-era names?
> 
> *
> so do you think the Muslims had a right to establish entire empires* and civilizations in the subcontinent that culminated in two sovereign (or supposed to be sovereign) nations that are Bangladesh and Pakistan, and a substantial minority population in India?



Muslims who converted did have the right to use their own names(Bengali names....since they were bengalis).....Muslims who came here from Central Asia did not have the right to change the names. 

When the Dutch(and the British) went to the New World(America) they eliminated the indigenous population......and then changed everything.....That is not our case......Most of us(Bengalis) are the indigenous people of this region......Unlike America where most of them are immigrants(and they admit it too)....American-Indians did not convert to "Dutch" or "English or "Irish".........you see where your example is messed up....you are comparing religion with race and nationality.......Since this country is majority Bengali....this place should have Bengali names and not Arabic names.....since you are not a Bengali(you don't even understand the freakin language)....and you don't live here I think your opinion hardly counts!

Nobody has the right to establish empires on other people's land......that's why we moved on and left feudal imperialism behind.....Islam in this region was spread by Awlias(from Shah Jalal to Bayezid Bostami)........not by Muslim emperors......Muslim emperors hardly cared about Islam!

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## dray

Anubis said:


> Islam in this region was spread by Awlias




How about the name *Awliashahi *for Bangladesh, come onnn......you can't oppress the popular demand for long. Please be constructive here and settle for a suitable name.


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## Dillinger

Anubis said:


> Muslims who converted did have the right to use their own names(Bengali names....since they were bengalis).....Muslims who came here from Central Asia did not have the right to change the names.
> 
> When the Dutch(and the British) went to the New World(America) they eliminated the indigenous population......and then changed everything.....That is not our case......Most of us(Bengalis) are the indigenous people of this region......Unlike America where most of them are immigrants(and they admit it too)....American-Indians did not convert to "Dutch" or "English or "Irish".........you see where your example is messed up....you are comparing religion with race and nationality.......Since this country is majority Bengali....this place should have Bengali names and not Arabic names.....since you are not a Bengali(you don't even understand the freakin language)....and you don't live here I think your opinion hardly counts!
> 
> Nobody has the right to establish empires on other people's land......that's why we moved on and left feudal imperialism behind.....Islam in this region was spread by Awlias(from Shah Jalal to Bayezid Bostami)........not by Muslim emperors......Muslim emperors hardly cared about Islam!



Looking forward to meeting Sheikh Nubis.


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## kalu_miah

Joe Shearer said:


> Are you sure that you've read the book yourself? Even as early as my reading, it says things that would make any Bangla chauvinist terribly uncomfortable.



Your question and statement simply means that you have wrong impressions.


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## nForce

DRAY said:


> You got your proportionate share of Bengal as per the religious demography of the landmass in 1947, after that we are not responsible for your population explosion, are we? Just because you had a problem to live with Hindus of India doesn't mean that you will get full share of Bengal and Bengali Hindus will go and jump in Bay of Bengal to give a pure Islamic nation. Now stop whining about this issue.



There shouldn't have been a separate Bengal in the first place.Just because a lot of people got converted to a religion, it does not mean that we will have to create a separate country for them.One of the biggest blunders of last century.


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## dray

nForce said:


> There shouldn't have been a separate Bengal in the first place.Just because a lot of people got converted to a religion, it does not mean that we will have to create a separate country for them.One of the biggest blunders of last century.



They didn't really want to create a separate Bengali nation for themselves, they wanted East Pakistan, and Bengali ethnicity was not in the picture till the time they faced severe discrimination, a racial one, from their own countrymen in the west in spite of sharing the same religion/brotherhood with them. Bengali nationalism and Bengali nation were just an afterthought.


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## nForce

DRAY said:


> They didn't really want to create a separate Bengali nation for themselves, they wanted East Pakistan, and Bengali ethnicity was not in the picture till the time they faced severe discrimination, a racial one, from their own countrymen in the west in spite of sharing the same religion/brotherhood with them. Bengali nationalism and Bengali nation were just an afterthought.



I'm aware of that.My point is there should not have been a division of Bengal in the first place, be it for East Pakistan, be it for Bangladesh.

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## kalu_miah

DRAY said:


> You got your proportionate share of Bengal as per the religious demography of the landmass in 1947, after that we are not responsible for your population explosion, are we? Just because you had a problem to live with Hindus of India doesn't mean that you will get full share of Bengal and Bengali Hindus will go and jump in Bay of Bengal to give a pure Islamic nation. Now stop whining about this issue.



The British took over Principality of Bengal in 1757 - 1772, but returned just a part of it. Where as in the case of Burmans they gave them back all of Burma, just to give you an example. That is what I am pointing out:
Principality of Bengal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But having said that, unlike some posters here, I have no crazy dreams to get any land from India. We will be lucky to keep what we have.

For Assam and North East states, we wish them well, whether they want to become independent with Chinese help or stay with India, that is their business. Bangladeshi's who talk about greater Bangladesh expanding into surrounding areas, are out of touch with reality.

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## Screambowl

khair_ctg said:


> it's none of your business even if Bangladeshis want to keep Tamil names or start eating Aztec food.
> 
> Muslims of South Asia have an organic culture different from either the Dharmic religious communities, or Arabia or Persia



and those who are not willing to adapt this in B'desh will run towards India. And India will do every thing to preserve bengali culture. They way India preserved it in 1971. India will make all understand in the language they want to understand. Simple. 


More over all Dharmic religions are more related to culture and traditions followed in the subcontinent.


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## Joe Shearer

kalu_miah said:


> Your question and statement simply means that you have wrong impressions.



Quite possible.

After all, I've just read the first part (brilliant book, by the way); the second part may throw a different light on things.


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## Pakistani shaheens

I'm totally agreed bangla language script should be changed into Arabic, because this will bring our Bangladeshi brothers more close to islam and it will also helps them decreasing indian culture influence in that region.


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## Joe Shearer

kalu_miah said:


> Your question and statement simply means that you have wrong impressions.



@kalu_miah 



> What is more significant, a contemporary Chinese traveler reported that although Persian was understood by some in the court, the language in universal use there was Bengali.[81] This points to the waning, although certainly not yet the disappearance, of the sort of foreign mentality that the Muslim ruling class in Bengal had exhibited since its arrival over two centuries earlier. It also points to the survival, and now the triumph, of local Bengali culture at the highest level of official society.





kalu_miah said:


> Your question and statement simply means that you have wrong impressions.



@kalu_miah



> The art historian Perween Hasan has suggested still another indigenous source for the Bengali mosque. By comparing sultanate mosques with Buddhist monuments in Burma dating from the eighth to eleventh centuries, together with surviving evidence of Buddhist architecture in pre-twelfth-century Bengal, Hasan has come to the conclusion that Bengal’s Buddhist temple tradition directly contributed to the revival of the square, brick Bengali mosque in the fifteenth century.[85] Drawing on elements derived both from the rural Bengali thatched hut and from the pre-Islamic Buddhist temple, then, these structures reflect an essentially nativist movement, an effort to express an Islamic institution in locally familiar terms. This style of royal culture became so fixed that it persisted despite the restoration of the old Ilyas Shahi dynasty in 1433,

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## Joe Shearer

kalu_miah said:


> Your question and statement simply means that you have wrong impressions.



@kalu_miah



> Thus the span of a century from the death of Jalal al-Din Muhammad (d. 1432) to that of Nasir al-Din Nusrat Shah (d. 1532) witnessed a wholesale transformation of Bengal’s political fabric. In the reign of the former sultan, descendants of old Turkish families had still formed the kingdom’s dominant ruling group. But in the following century the scope of Bengali participation at all levels of government continually widened,





kalu_miah said:


> Your question and statement simply means that you have wrong impressions.



@kalu_miah



> The court also lent vigorous support to Bengali language and literature. Already in the early fifteenth century, the Chinese traveler Ma Huan observed that Bengali was “the language in universal use.”[99] By the second half of the same century, the court was patronizing Bengali literary works as well as Persian romance literature. Sultan Rukn al-Din Barbak (r. 1459–74) patronized the writing of the _śrī Kṛṣṇa-Vijaya_ by Maladhara Basu, and under ‘Ala al-Din Husain Shah (1493–1519) and Nasir al-Din Nusrat Shah (1519–32), the court patronized the writing of the _Manasā-Vijaya_ by Vipra Das, the _Padma-Purāṇa_ by Vijaya Gupta, the _Kṛṣṇa-Maṅgala_ by Yasoraj Khan, and translations (from Sanskrit) of portions of the great epic _Mahābhārata_ by Vijaya Pandita and Kavindra Parameśvara.[100] Sultan Mahmud Shah (1532–38) even dedicated a bridge using a Sanskrit inscription written in Bengali characters, and dated according to the Hindu calendar.





kalu_miah said:


> Your question and statement simply means that you have wrong impressions.



@kalu_miah



> In short, apart from the Persianized political ritual that survived within the court itself, from the early fifteenth century on, the sultanate articulated its authority through Bengali media. This resulted partly from reassessments made in the wake of the upheavals of the Raja Ganesh period and partly from sustained isolation from North India, which compelled rulers to base their claims of political legitimacy in terms that would attract local support. But royal patronage of Bengali culture was selective in nature. With the apparent aim of broadening the roots of its authority, the court patronized folk architecture as opposed to classical Indian styles, popular literature written in Bengali rather than Sanskrit texts, and Vaishnava Bengali officials instead of śākta Brahmans. At the same time, Islamic symbolism assumed a measurably lower posture in the projection of state authority. Political pragmatism seems to have dictated the most public of all royal deeds, the minting of coins. Sultan Nasir al-Din Nusrat Shah described himself as “the sultan, son of the sultan, Nasir al-Din Nusrat Shah, the sultan, son of Husain Shah, the sultan.”[102] Gone was the bombast of earlier periods, and gone too were references to Greek conquerors or Arab caliphs. Nasir al-Din Nusrat Shah was sultan simply because his father had been; no further justification was deemed necessary. Secure in power, these kings now presented themselves to all Bengalis as indigenous rulers.
> 
> It seems, moreover, that this was how contemporary Hindu poets perceived them. In a 1494 work glorifying the goddess Manasa, the poet Vijaya Gupta wove into his opening stanzas praises of the sultan of Bengal that would have flattered any classical Indian raja:
> 
> Sultan Husain Raja, nurturer of the world:
> In war he is invincible; for his opponents he is Yama [god of death].
> In his charity he is like Kalpataru [a fabled wish-yielding tree].
> In his beauty he is like Kama [god of love].
> His subjects enjoy happiness under his rule.[103]
> Similarly, in his _śrī Caitanya Bhāgavat_ composed in the 1540s, Vrindavan Das refers to the Bengal king as _rāja,_ never using the Arabo-Persian terms _shāh_ or _sulṭān._ And in the early 1550s another Vaishnava poet, Jayananda, refers in his_Caitanya-Maṅgala_ to the Muslim ruler not only as _rāja_ but as _iśvara_ (“god”), and even as Indra, the Vedic king of the gods.[104] The use of such titles signals a distinctly Bengali validation of the sultan’s authority.

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## Joe Shearer

kalu_miah said:


> Your question and statement simply means that you have wrong impressions.



I *really* don't know, @kalu_miah.



> In 1629, shortly after the Mughal conquest of Bengal, and still within living memory of the sultanate, the Augustinian friar Sebastião Manrique visited Bengal and remarked that some of its Muslim kings had been in the habit of sending for water from Ganga Sagar, the ancient holy site where the old Ganges (the modern Hooghly) emptied into the Bay of Bengal. Like Hindu sovereigns of the region, he wrote, these kings would wash themselves in that holy water during ceremonies connected with their installation.





> balancing the Persian symbols that pervaded their private audiences, the later sultans observed explicitly Indian rites during their coronations, events that were very public and symbolically charged. Contemporary poetic references to these kings as _rāja_ or _iśvara_ should not, then, be dismissed as mere hyperbole. They had become Bengali kings.



*Summary*
Having dislodged a Hindu dynasty in Bengal, the earliest Muslim rulers made no attempt on their coins to assert legitimate authority over their conquered subjects, displaying instead a show of coercive power. Their earliest architecture reveals an immigrant people still looking over their shoulders to distant Delhi. In the course of the thirteenth century, however, political rivalry with Delhi compelled Bengal’s rulers to adopt a posture of strenuous religious orthodoxy vis-à-vis their former overlords. This they did by associating themselves with the font of all Islamic legitimacy, the office of the caliph in Baghdad. After gaining independence from Delhi in the mid fourteenth century, the sultans of Bengal added to this posture a projection of Persian imperial ideology, reflected in the “Second Alexander” numismatic formula and in Sikandar’s grandiose and majestic Adina mosque.

By the early fifteenth century, however, too much emphasis upon either foreign basis of legitimacy—Islamic or imperial Persian—provoked a crisis of confidence among those powerful Bengali nobles upon whose continued political support the minority Muslim ruling class ultimately depended. That crisis, manifested in Raja Ganesh’s rise to all but legal sovereignty, in turn provoked a crisis of confidence among the chief Muslim literati, the Sufi elite of the time. These tensions were partially resolved by the conversion of Raja Ganesh’s son, Sultan Jalal al-Din, and the latter’s attempt to patronize each of the kingdom’s principal constituencies—pious Muslims, Sufis of the Chishti order, and devotees of the Goddess—on a separate, piecemeal basis.

But a comprehensive political ideology appealing to all Bengalis only appeared with the restored Ilyas Shahi dynasty and its successors. By evolving a stable, mainly secular modus vivendi with Bengali society and culture, in which mutually satisfactory patron-client relations became politically institutionalized, and in which the state systematically patronized the culture of the subject population, the later Bengal sultanate approximated what Marshall Hodgson has called a “military patronage state.”[106] Dropping all references to external sources of authority, the coins of the later sultans relied instead on a secular dynastic formula of legitimate succession: so-and-so was sultan because his father had been one. And in their public architecture, these kings yielded so much to Bengali conceptions of form and medium that, as the art historian Percy Brown observes, “the country, originally possessed by the invaders, now possessed them.”[107]

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## toxic_pus

@Joe Shearer

Seriously?

No, I mean seriously?

You just had to pour that freezing water?

Don't you have a kind bone in your body?

*sigh*


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## jarves

The Snow Queen said:


> Why the hell you are so stupid!?


Shit queen,The only stupid and dumb here is you.As expected your IQ is way below average llike a typical Bangladeshi.So let me spoonfeed you.THis is the post you quoted-
*"No, this is not off topic, although a diversion. We, Bengalee Muslims, feel that we need to retrieve our original sovereign entity that was lost on 23 June 1757 through conspiracy."*

This post is talking about annexing Assam,To which you replied this-



The Snow Queen said:


> Yes, that's what I was trying to say but no one understands!  They all so stupid and idiots! Humph!



Which means you agreed with his post and now you are telling me that you were not talking about India,liar.

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## Dillinger

Joe Shearer said:


> I *really* don't know, @kalu_miah.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Summary*
> Having dislodged a Hindu dynasty in Bengal, the earliest Muslim rulers made no attempt on their coins to assert legitimate authority over their conquered subjects, displaying instead a show of coercive power. Their earliest architecture reveals an immigrant people still looking over their shoulders to distant Delhi. In the course of the thirteenth century, however, political rivalry with Delhi compelled Bengal’s rulers to adopt a posture of strenuous religious orthodoxy vis-à-vis their former overlords. This they did by associating themselves with the font of all Islamic legitimacy, the office of the caliph in Baghdad. After gaining independence from Delhi in the mid fourteenth century, the sultans of Bengal added to this posture a projection of Persian imperial ideology, reflected in the “Second Alexander” numismatic formula and in Sikandar’s grandiose and majestic Adina mosque.
> 
> By the early fifteenth century, however, too much emphasis upon either foreign basis of legitimacy—Islamic or imperial Persian—provoked a crisis of confidence among those powerful Bengali nobles upon whose continued political support the minority Muslim ruling class ultimately depended. That crisis, manifested in Raja Ganesh’s rise to all but legal sovereignty, in turn provoked a crisis of confidence among the chief Muslim literati, the Sufi elite of the time. These tensions were partially resolved by the conversion of Raja Ganesh’s son, Sultan Jalal al-Din, and the latter’s attempt to patronize each of the kingdom’s principal constituencies—pious Muslims, Sufis of the Chishti order, and devotees of the Goddess—on a separate, piecemeal basis.
> 
> But a comprehensive political ideology appealing to all Bengalis only appeared with the restored Ilyas Shahi dynasty and its successors. By evolving a stable, mainly secular modus vivendi with Bengali society and culture, in which mutually satisfactory patron-client relations became politically institutionalized, and in which the state systematically patronized the culture of the subject population, the later Bengal sultanate approximated what Marshall Hodgson has called a “military patronage state.”[106] Dropping all references to external sources of authority, the coins of the later sultans relied instead on a secular dynastic formula of legitimate succession: so-and-so was sultan because his father had been one. And in their public architecture, these kings yielded so much to Bengali conceptions of form and medium that, as the art historian Percy Brown observes, “the country, originally possessed by the invaders, now possessed them.”[107]



A scholar's bane is the myopic mind. I wonder, perhaps they are right, they cannot be linked by blood to us Joe. A mass, rubbing the itch of its impotent soul, knowing only the kind fictions it spins for itself.


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## Shadow_Hunter

Dillinger said:


> A scholar's bane is the myopic mind. I wonder, perhaps they are right, they cannot be linked by blood to us Joe. A mass, rubbing the itch of its impotent soul, knowing only the kind fictions it spins for itself.


The problem with them again is facing the truth. They cannot face who their true ancestors were, so they must invent their own history. Same is the behavior of Pakistanis, which is why they have desperately attempted to link themselves with the Persians/Arabians. Only if these people would accept their history as it is, they would have no identity crisis. But then again, that history has to be grand for making it worth accepting.


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## khair_ctg

Anubis said:


> Muslims who converted did have the right to use their own names(Bengali names....since they were bengalis).....Muslims who came here from Central Asia did not have the right to change the names.
> 
> When the Dutch(and the British) went to the New World(America) they eliminated the indigenous population......and then changed everything.....That is not our case......Most of us(Bengalis) are the indigenous people of this region......Unlike America where most of them are immigrants(and they admit it too)....American-Indians did not convert to "Dutch" or "English or "Irish".........you see where your example is messed up....*you are comparing religion with race and nationality*.......Since this country is majority Bengali....this place should have Bengali names and not Arabic names.....since you are not a Bengali(you don't even understand the freakin language)....and you don't live here I think your opinion hardly counts!
> 
> Nobody has the right to establish empires on other people's land......that's why we moved on and left feudal imperialism behind.....Islam in this region was spread by Awlias(from Shah Jalal to Bayezid Bostami)........not by Muslim emperors......Muslim emperors hardly cared about Islam!


the Muslim community as whole in South Asia is as much a racial community as it is a religious community. religion/faith is not the only thing that separates the Muslims from the non-Muslims of South Asia. the converts and the settlers (who converted at another place) have mixed up in the melting pot called the South Asian Muslims. and so whether you are talking about the nastaliq-Punjabi, or subcontinental Farsi, or even a nastaliq-Bangla, they would all contain the influences that culminated into the South Asian Muslim community. an Urdu language for example would not exist if it was not for the Sanskrit heritage and the organic fusion of the cultures of the settlers and the converts (so i'm not saying it was only settlers who formed the Muslim community like it happened with European settlers in the New World). 

what has also happened, as it has happened throughout world history, a high culture is more inclusive and takes the place of more fragmented or underdeveloped ones. this was seen when a lot of the Mughals and Pathans practised the more sophisticated Farsi in more formal contexts over their various Turkic languages and dialects from Central Asia. 

in Bengal, after colonialism started, Farsi was politically displaced. and it existed rather informally within the Muslims. if you are discussing about Bengali Muslims, you cannot attempt to exterminate the Farsi and Urdu and Arabic languages. if you are, you are just isolating and ignoring the Bengali Muslim heritage. just like the Hindu-Brahmin intelligentsia was when they gained sole power to develop the current Bengali script and to call what is official Bengali language


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## INDIC

khair_ctg said:


> the Muslim community as whole in South Asia is as much a racial community as it is a religious community. religion/faith is not the only thing that separates the Muslims from the non-Muslims of South Asia. the converts and the settlers (who converted at another place) have mixed up in the melting pot called the South Asian Muslims. and so whether you are talking about the nastaliq-Punjabi, or subcontinental Farsi, or even a nastaliq-Bangla, they would all contain the influences that culminated into the South Asian Muslim community. an Urdu language for example would not exist if it was not for the Sanskrit heritage and the organic fusion of the cultures of the settlers and the converts (so i'm not saying it was only settlers who formed the Muslim community like it happened with European settlers in the New World).
> 
> what has also happened, as it has happened throughout world history, a high culture is more inclusive and takes the place of more fragmented or underdeveloped ones. this was seen when a lot of the Mughals and Pathans practised the more sophisticated Farsi in more formal contexts over their various Turkic languages and dialects from Central Asia.
> 
> in Bengal, after colonialism started, Farsi was politically displaced. and it existed rather informally within the Muslims. if you are discussing about Bengali Muslims, you cannot attempt to exterminate the Farsi and Urdu and Arabic languages. if you are, you are just isolating and ignoring the Bengali Muslim heritage. just like the Hindu-Brahmin intelligentsia was when they gained sole power to develop the current Bengali script and to call what is official Bengali language



Genetic studies shows all South Asian Muslims mainly have native ancestry identical to Hindus, the Turkish, Afghan and Persian ancestry is rarest.

As for Urdu, it was mainly a British plot to divide the language into Hindi and Urdu in 1837 by inciting religious tensions, Urdu never had any historical royal patronage, it was Persian which enjoyed that status. I am extremely baffled why you want to associate yourself with Urdu instead of your own Bengali language.

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## khair_ctg

INDIC said:


> Genetic studies shows all South Asian Muslims mainly have native ancestry identical to Hindus, the Turkish, Afghan and Persian is ancestry is rarest.
> 
> As for Urdu, it was mainly a British plot to divide the language into Hindi and Urdu in 1837 by inciting religious tensions, Urdu never had any historical royal patronage to Urdu, it was Persian which enjoyed that status. I am extremely baffled why you want to associate yourself with Urdu instead of your own Bengali language.


any large scale genetic study have not yet been carried out to answer you. what has been carried out are individual DNA assessments. there has been individuals who are Bengali Bangladeshi Muslims who found out lineage from places like Iran-Iraq via Northern India. and besides such lineage is well known in many families.

what makes you think only Bengali is my only language, or even if it is *a* language of mine? is it just because i have a Bangladeshi flag? Chatgaia *happens* to be my first language. but two generation ago, there was a prevalence of Urdu and Farsi. what is definitely not mine is the Calcutta Tagore Bengali, that you ignorantly think is the *only* Bengali that ever exists

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## INDIC

khair_ctg said:


> what makes you think only Bengali is my only language, or even if it is *a* language of mine? is it just because i have a Bangladeshi flag? Chatgaia *happens* to be my first language. *but two generation ago, there was a prevalence of Urdu a*nd Farsi. what is definitely not mine is the Calcutta Tagore Bengali, that you ignorantly think is the *only* Bengali that ever exists



I know that a myth, you guys can't speak even a single sentence in Urdu properly and trying to claim it as your own.  As for genetic studies, tests are more authentic than than your wannabe Arab-Persian nature.

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## khair_ctg

INDIC said:


> I know that a myth, you guys can't speak even a single sentence in Urdu properly and trying to claim it as your own.  As for genetic studies, tests are more authentic than than your wannabe Arab-Persian nature.


that is a ridiculous attitude from you. what exists is not a myth. one of my late grandparents educated in British era had written a book in Urdu. my parents speak thorough Urdu and have some rusty writing skills. my proficiency is about intermediate. and there are many Urdu-speaking Bengalis and non-Bengalis in BD. who you referred to as "you guys" is messed up


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## INDIC

khair_ctg said:


> that is a ridiculous attitude from you. what exists is not a myth. one of my late grandparents educated in British era had written a book in Urdu. my parents speak thorough Urdu and have some rusty writing skills. my proficiency is about intermediate. and there are many Urdu-speaking Bengalis and non-Bengalis in BD. who you referred to as "you guys" is messed up



Urdu never had any base in East Bengal because unlike Punjab, British never promoted Urdu in Bengal after securing the Hindi-Urdu divide. That was the main reason your language conflict between East and West Pakistan came in open conflict after the creation of Pakistan.


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## khair_ctg

Joe Shearer said:


> The court also lent vigorous support to Bengali language and literature. Already in the early fifteenth century, the Chinese traveler Ma Huan observed that Bengali was “the language in universal use
> [/USER]


bengali was the language of the majority. but this Bengali means many accents and dialects and heavy Arbi-Farsi use. the ensuing Sanskritization of Bangla during colonial period even caused this Musalman Bangla to be considered as a dialect of Urdu, rather than a dialect of Bangla. and whether a standardized and written form of nastaliq-Bangla was developed or not in pre-colonial times, a standardized and written form apparently did not survive the colonial and Brahmin zamindari era.



INDIC said:


> Urdu never had any base in East Bengal because unlike Punjab, British never promoted Urdu in Bengal after securing the Hindi-Urdu divide. That was the main reason your language conflict between East and West Pakistan came in open conflict after the creation of Pakistan.


there was an agitation to elevate the status of Bangla above it's rightful place, i.e. as a provincial language to a national language. if you want to argue Urdu had a base in East Bengal/Entire Bengal, it is pointless to compare the region with another. in any case, refer to my comments at the bottom here:

Tribute to Language movement | Page 12


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## The Snow Queen

jarves said:


> Shit queen,The only stupid and dumb here is you.As expected your IQ is way below average llike a typical Bangladeshi.So let me spoonfeed you.THis is the post you quoted-
> "No, this is not off topic, although a diversion. We, Bengalee Muslims, feel that we need to retrieve our original sovereign entity that was lost on 23 June 1757 through conspiracy."
> This post is talking about annexing Assam,To which you replied this-



Assam is not even in Bangladesh or part of Bengal! So where does that come from!? Okay listen, shit iron. I don't care, so stop bothering me now! And I don't give a damn about Assam! 



jarves said:


> Which means you agreed with his post and now you are telling me that you were not talking about India,liar.



No, you interpreted me wrong. And you think you are always right. You are so narcissistic!


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## Saiful Islam

INDIC said:


> I know that a myth, you guys can't speak even a single sentence in Urdu properly and trying to claim it as your own.  As for genetic studies, tests are more authentic than than your wannabe Arab-Persian nature.




Sahih Bukhari,Kitab ut tawhid were first translated in urdu by deobandi scholars of bengal i, do you know how big of a role these books play today in South Asia? Yes I can't speak urdu but i can understand it, but like i've mentioned before I like how my language (Sylheti) is very distinct from spoken Hindi and Urdu and that not everyone can understand it. 

Put aside Urdu. During the Bengal Sultanate it was only Persian and Arabic that was used more

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## paritosh

khair_ctg said:


> the Muslim community as whole in South Asia is as much a racial community as it is a religious community. religion/faith is not the only thing that separates the Muslims from the non-Muslims of South Asia. the converts and the settlers (who converted at another place) have mixed up in the melting pot called the South Asian Muslims. and so whether you are talking about the nastaliq-Punjabi, or subcontinental Farsi, or even a nastaliq-Bangla, they would all contain the influences that culminated into the South Asian Muslim community. an Urdu language for example would not exist if it was not for the Sanskrit heritage and the organic fusion of the cultures of the settlers and the converts (so i'm not saying it was only settlers who formed the Muslim community like it happened with European settlers in the New World).
> 
> what has also happened, as it has happened throughout world history, a high culture is more inclusive and takes the place of more fragmented or underdeveloped ones. this was seen when a lot of the Mughals and Pathans practised the more sophisticated Farsi in more formal contexts over their various Turkic languages and dialects from Central Asia.
> 
> in Bengal, after colonialism started, Farsi was politically displaced. and it existed rather informally within the Muslims. if you are discussing about Bengali Muslims, you cannot attempt to exterminate the Farsi and Urdu and Arabic languages. if you are, you are just isolating and ignoring the Bengali Muslim heritage. just like the Hindu-Brahmin intelligentsia was when they gained sole power to develop the current Bengali script and to call what is official Bengali language



India (pre-independence) was the largest melting-pot of cultures in the world (invasions, settlements,etc)
Your Bengalis look exactly like our Bengalis, I am sure there are some muslims of mid-estern descent, but majority is racially similar. 

All the south-asian countries have very racially diverse people on the whole. In India there are people darker than the darkest people in the world and fairer than the fairest. Not that it matters.

Same goes for languages, Bengali is older than urdu and has no relation with Farsi.

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## kalu_miah

@Joe Shearer the wrong impression you have are:
1. that I have not read the book, because I did read it
2. that there are any Bengali chauvinists here that are trying to portray a false image of history

I personally believe I am no chauvinist, if I have gaps in my knowledge, anyone is welcome to correct me. 

You can quote the whole book if you like in multiple posts, not sure what you are trying to prove. The book is online, anyone can go and read it as a whole. I believe the author went to original sources and this is an excellent thesis work that shows how Islam spread in Bengal, much better than what I have read in other South Asian sources, specially the ones written by Hindu historians, most of whom I believe were either biased or plain incompetent or they lacked a sense of context about how the events in Bengal in particular or in South Asia in general were intimately connected to events in inner (Central Asia). There are exceptions though, such as the more recent work by Sunil Kumar, which I quoted here:
Turks, Mongols and a Persian Secretarial Class in Early Delhi Sultanate

You are welcome to debate any point that you may have about Bengal's history based on this book or other sources.

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## Joe Shearer

toxic_pus said:


> @Joe Shearer
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> No, I mean seriously?
> 
> You just had to pour that freezing water?
> 
> Don't you have a kind bone in your body?
> 
> *sigh*



What are you talking about?
This was the reference given by the man himself.

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## Joe Shearer

kalu_miah said:


> @Joe Shearer the wrong impression you have are:
> 1. that I have not read the book, because I did read it
> 2. that there are any Bengali chauvinists here that are trying to portray a false image of history
> 
> I personally believe I am no chauvinist, if I have gaps in my knowledge, anyone is welcome to correct me.
> 
> You can quote the whole book if you like in multiple posts, not sure what you are trying to prove. The book is online, anyone can go and read it as a whole. I believe the author went to original sources and this is an excellent thesis work that shows how Islam spread in Bengal, much better than what I have read in other South Asian sources, specially the ones written by Hindu historians, most of whom I believe were either biased or plain incompetent or they lacked a sense of context about how the events in Bengal in particular or in South Asia in general were intimately connected to events in inner (Central Asia). There are exceptions though, such as the more recent work by Sunil Kumar, which I quoted here:
> Turks, Mongols and a Persian Secretarial Class in Early Delhi Sultanate
> 
> You are welcome to debate any point that you may have about Bengal's history based on this book or other sources.



Hang on for a moment.

Both you and my Indian friends have the impression that this was some kind of exposure of your position. 

Please read my repeated statement. I have cited, again and again, at one stage, before every post, your own post where you said that I had a wrong impression. There was a question, had you read the book, and there was a statement, that it would appall a chauvinist. 

Having read the book - and thank you very kindly for introducing me to Eaton - I think that he has made a dramatic point: that the phenomenon of an overwhelmingly Muslim population in this isolated part of the world is due to a very special kind of agrarian expansion that occurred here, very late in the day, not very early. He has taken into account the four conventional reasons for this population, 

Migration
Forcible conversion
Patronage
Social liberation
and has carefully, systematically dissected each of them, and disproved them. What is left is only the clear dating of the expansion of the Muslim population, which he assigns to as late as the Mughal period, an astounding assertion, contrary to everything that we had held earlier - certainly contrary to what I believed before reading this wholly persuasive book.

Since you have read the book, the question arises - what exactly is it that I seek to convey to you? 

First, that it is a refutation of various chauvinist views that we have read here. Ironically, it shatters the illusions of both Muslim chauvinists, that the population was due to mass migration, that the Muslims of Bengal are really migrants who immigrated en masse, and the Hindu chauvinists, who claim variously that this population came into being due to the threat of violence, or that they are all former Hindus and Buddhists who converted due to either, slightingly, a desire to get out of the oppressed status as non-Muslims that they occupied, or, on the lines of the Ambedkar/Dalit argument, that they sought Social Liberation (my view till now). 

All of us who advocated this, that or the other are now sitting here with egg on our faces, some of us, who have just read the book, with a happy smile under the yolk. 

Second, that it is no longer a question of a long-standing composite Muslim Bengali culture, a view that was put forward so earnestly and sincerely by various sections, the @asad71 and @khair_ctg view among others, if I understood them correctly. Far from being long-standing, this was as late as the 16th century, perhaps later, and is after the Mughal conquest of Bengal. It is after the shift eastwards of the main channel of the Ganga eastwards, and the consequent opening up of vast forest areas for exploitation and conversion to agricultural, and the directly linked sudden expansion of the population under conditions of greater security and prosperity.

Third, that one of us, and I shall not name the individual, lands up with, not egg, but some other yellow and in that particular case vile-smelling substance on the face. Eaton proves decisively, and that is the reason for my extensive citations, that there was nothing like a composite Bengalo-Persian cultural composite which was built up in the centuries that passed between Bakhtiyar Khalji and the partitions of Bengal. Every citation, every paragraph of his book makes it very clear that it was the original culture and language that prevailed over the invaders, and that what remained, before the Mughal intervention, was a largely traditional and native tradition of kingship and rule, overlaid by the necessities of Islamic rule, the striking of coins and reading of the khutba, the legal system, in some aspects, and the influences at the very top, at the level of the Sultan himself, other than during the interregnum, if I may call it that, of Ganesh and his son. The Husain Shahis apparently were content to rule, and to allow some aspects of the earlier traditions of kingship to return, rather than stick to the straight and narrow path recommended by the Sufi savants.

Fourth, I believe that there are chauvinists here, of both sides, and I am wholly ready to believe, based on your remarks in your latest post, that you are not one of them. I also agree with you that the work is brilliant, nothing short of that, and has entirely converted me to this point of view. Your assertion that other south Asian histories - you mention Hindu, but I beg to draw your attention to this being a general malaise, not leaving out the Christians (Europeans) or Muslims (Indian, Persian, Turkish, Arabic) - were either biased, or plain incompetent or simply lacked any sense of context about how events unfolded, and about the intimate connection at some points of time between Central Asia and Bengal, are perfectly valid. 

Incidentally, I read those parts with a sense of disbelief and a dawning enlightenment, as having thrown clear and lucid light on some aspects that were simply not making sense without this connection having existed.

If these views are yours, you are clearly an unbiased observer and analyst, perhaps even an historian by education, and also clearly not a chauvinist, at least not here , not now. I have no reason to doubt your statement that you hold these views.

I sincerely hope that this will set to rest the concept that what is being advocated in this thread is justified by tradition and past practice. 

What remains is the path that the people of Bangladesh set for themselves in future, as a sovereign, independent nation. If they set themselves to reminding themselves of their membership of the Islamic community by changing the script in which Bengali is written, it is their sovereign desire, and good luck to them. There is nothing that anyone else can or should say. That, however, will be decided outside this forum. If such a debate arises, I, for one, shall watch it from the galleries with the keenest academic interest and no personal concern or emotional involvement, as being, ultimately, none of my business.

I hope that this will make my own position clear, and also the reason for such extensive citation. Far from my correcting gaps in your knowledge, this is an acknowledgement that gaps in my own knowledge have been corrected. However, it also puts to rest the canard that Bengalo-Persian culture prevailed in the centuries past. Instead, it makes it clear that it was at best restricted to the very short Mughal rule over Bengal, and throws new light on the Bengal Renaissance, correcting the impression that it was an entirely innovative, Eurocentric breakthrough and also the impression that it was a Bengali Hindu revenge on the Muslim elite, taken under cover of British patronage.



khair_ctg said:


> bengali was the language of the majority. but this Bengali means many accents and dialects and heavy Arbi-Farsi use. the ensuing Sanskritization of Bangla during colonial period even caused this Musalman Bangla to be considered as a dialect of Urdu, rather than a dialect of Bangla. and whether a standardized and written form of nastaliq-Bangla was developed or not in pre-colonial times, a standardized and written form apparently did not survive the colonial and Brahmin zamindari era.



I think Eaton has put this argument in its place. There is no need to spend time uselessly arguing over this obvious fallacy or to indulge in this sort of fantasising:



> whether a standardized and written form of nastaliq-Bangla was developed or not in pre-colonial times, a standardized and written form apparently did not survive the colonial and Brahmin zamindari era.



Poppycock.




khair_ctg said:


> there was an agitation to elevate the status of Bangla above it's rightful place, i.e. as a provincial language to a national language. if you want to argue Urdu had a base in East Bengal/Entire Bengal, it is pointless to compare the region with another. in any case, refer to my comments at the bottom here:
> 
> Tribute to Language movement | Page 12

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## khair_ctg

Joe Shearer said:


> and has carefully, systematically dissected each of them, and disproved them. What is left is only the clear dating of the expansion of the Muslim population, which he assigns to as late as the Mughal period, an astounding assertion, contrary to everything that we had held earlier - certainly contrary to what I believed before reading this wholly persuasive book.
> 
> Since you have read the book, the question arises - what exactly is it that I seek to convey to you?
> 
> First, that it is a refutation of various chauvinist views that we have read here. Ironically, it shatters the illusions of both Muslim chauvinists, that the population was due to mass migration, that the Muslims of Bengal are really migrants who immigrated en masse, and the Hindu chauvinists, who claim variously that this population came into being due to the threat of violence, or that they are all former Hindus and Buddhists who converted due to either, slightingly, a desire to get out of the oppressed status as non-Muslims that they occupied, or, on the lines of the Ambedkar/Dalit argument, that they sought Social Liberation (my view till now).
> 
> All of us who advocated this, that or the other are now sitting here with egg on our faces, some of us, who have just read the book, with a happy smile under the yolk.
> 
> Second, that it is no longer a question of a long-standing composite Muslim Bengali culture, a view that was put forward so earnestly and sincerely by various sections, the @asad71 and @khair_ctg view among others, if I understood them correctly. Far from being long-standing, this was as late as the 16th century, perhaps later, and is after the Mughal conquest of Bengal. It is after the shift eastwards of the main channel of the Ganga eastwards, and the consequent opening up of vast forest areas for exploitation and conversion to agricultural, and the directly linked sudden expansion of the population under conditions of greater security and prosperity.
> 
> Third, that one of us, and I shall not name the individual, lands up with, not egg, but some other yellow and in that particular case vile-smelling substance on the face. *Eaton proves decisively, and that is the reason for my extensive citations, that there was nothing like a composite Bengalo-Persian cultural composite which was built up in the centuries that passed between Bakhtiyar Khalji and the partitions of Bengal*. *Every citation, every paragraph of his book makes it very clear that it was the original culture and language that prevailed over the invaders, and that what remained, before the Mughal intervention, was a largely traditional and native tradition of kingship and rule*, overlaid by the necessities of Islamic rule, the striking of coins and reading of the khutba, the legal system, in some aspects, and the influences at the very top, at the level of the Sultan himself, other than during the interregnum, if I may call it that, of Ganesh and his son. The Husain Shahis apparently were content to rule, and to allow some aspects of the earlier traditions of kingship to return, rather than stick to the straight and narrow path recommended by the Sufi savants.
> 
> Fourth, I believe that there are chauvinists here, of both sides, and I am wholly ready to believe, based on your remarks in your latest post, that you are not one of them. I also agree with you that the work is brilliant, nothing short of that, and has entirely converted me to this point of view. Your assertion that other south Asian histories - you mention Hindu, but I beg to draw your attention to this being a general malaise, not leaving out the Christians (Europeans) or Muslims (Indian, Persian, Turkish, Arabic) - were either biased, or plain incompetent or simply lacked any sense of context about how events unfolded, and about the intimate connection at some points of time between Central Asia and Bengal, are perfectly valid.
> 
> Incidentally, I read those parts with a sense of disbelief and a dawning enlightenment, as having thrown clear and lucid light on some aspects that were simply not making sense without this connection having existed.
> 
> If these views are yours, you are clearly an unbiased observer and analyst, perhaps even an historian by education, and also clearly not a chauvinist, at least not here , not now. I have no reason to doubt your statement that you hold these views.
> 
> I sincerely hope that this will set to rest the concept that what is being advocated in this thread is justified by tradition and past practice.
> 
> What remains is the path that the people of Bangladesh set for themselves in future, as a sovereign, independent nation. If they set themselves to reminding themselves of their membership of the Islamic community by changing the script in which Bengali is written, it is their sovereign desire, and good luck to them. There is nothing that anyone else can or should say. That, however, will be decided outside this forum. If such a debate arises, I, for one, shall watch it from the galleries with the keenest academic interest and no personal concern or emotional involvement, as being, ultimately, none of my business.
> 
> I hope that this will make my own position clear, and also the reason for such extensive citation. Far from my correcting gaps in your knowledge, this is an acknowledgement that gaps in my own knowledge have been corrected. However, it also puts to rest the canard that Bengalo-Persian culture prevailed in the centuries past. Instead, it makes it clear that it was at best restricted to the very short Mughal rule over Bengal, and throws new light on the Bengal Renaissance, correcting the impression that it was an entirely innovative, Eurocentric breakthrough and also the impression that it was a Bengali Hindu revenge on the Muslim elite, taken under cover of British patronage.
> 
> 
> 
> I think Eaton has put this argument in its place. There is no need to spend time uselessly arguing over this obvious fallacy or to indulge in this sort of fantasising:
> 
> 
> 
> Poppycock.


it's inconvenient for you now and that is understandable, but give it some time. 

i don't think any of the Bangladeshis here asserted that only en masse migration resulted in the Bengal Muslim population. they only asserted it is one of the major factors in response to a total denial of that by Indian chauvinists. the highlighted portion (if i understand you correctly) would not make sense if we agree that the thrust of the Muslim population growth in fact happened during the Mughals. the low total Muslim population in the Turkic-Afghan period itself explains that. and since you are looking for a Persian-Bengali composite culture. the prevalence of the Musalman Bangla, Farsi and Urdu should be enough examples of that, and of Persian-Indic culture overall forming the Hindustani or South Asian Muslim culture.


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## Joe Shearer

khair_ctg said:


> it's inconvenient for you now and that is understandable, but give it some time.
> 
> i don't think any of the Bangladeshis here asserted that only en masse migration resulted in the Bengal Muslim population. they only asserted it is one of the major factors in response to a total denial of that by Indian chauvinists. the highlighted portion (if i understand you correctly) would not make sense if we agree that the thrust of the Muslim population growth in fact happened during the Mughals. the low total Muslim population in the Turkic-Afghan period itself explains that. and since you are looking for a Persian-Bengali composite culture. the prevalence of the Musalman Bangla, Farsi and Urdu should be enough examples of that, and of Persian-Indic culture overall forming the Hindustani or South Asian Muslim culture.



"Inconvenience" is not a factor either in my professional life or my academic pursuits, sad to say, considering how much time you seem to be spending on it. Which Bangladeshis precisely asserted that only en masse migration resulted in the Bengali Muslim population, or rather, to be fair, the bulk of the Bengali Muslim population is for you to explore. It is there, in clear print. Nor, from the excerpts that I have reproduced for those who will not read the inconvenient, perhaps including you, was it a major factor, by any measure. Here, I am considering the overwhelming bulk of the Bengali Muslim population having been in the east, with much less in the west. Considering that the seats of Muslim power were always in the west, until the Mughals set up Jahangirabad, I don't see why anyone even needs to read Eaton to figure out that an immigrant population located in the west of the province could not be contributing to the vast majority in the east. It is not, in this case, an Indian chauvinist denying it, but an American historian author of an excellent treatise*. Somehow, that salvo of yours lacks conviction.

Yes, the highlighted portion means precisely that: there was no composite culture during Turco-Afghan times, and each and every citation from the book shows that clearly, beyond the point of possible misunderstanding or of avoiding the "inconvenient". But your response is to agree that there was a low Muslim population during the Turco-Afghan period, and then to point to Musalman Bangla, Farsi and Urdu. How did that get there, considering that all the information that we have is contrary? A rabbit out of a hat is not inconvenient; the word is inconceivable. That culture did not exist in the way that chauvinists in this thread have described it.

What may be "inconvenient" is the realisation that many of the misconceptions about Muslim rule were based on retrospective myth-making. Eaton has dealt with it rather well; such flights of fancy are to be seen not merely among day-dreaming Muslim narratives which were written decades after the events described, but also among the romantic, fuzzy thinkers who are trying to create a brave new world out of thin air in this thread.

___________________________________________________________________________
*Incidentally, Eaton specifically rules out west to east migration, so that leaves us pondering the inconvenient possibility that the creators of the composite culture vanished into thin air.

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## Joe Shearer

@kalu_miah 

Although Eaton's thesis is wholly convincing in the case of east Bengal, there is still a disturbing quiggle in one's mind about the universality of his explanation. He explains the creation of an unexpectedly large Muslim population isolated from other major centres of Muslim population through the expanding agricultural frontier and its demographic consequences. Presumably, there are similar reasons to explain the existence of two other pockets widely separated from other Muslim populations, the Malays of the peninsula and the Indonesians. Was there such a shifting of the agricultural frontier in those countries as well? If not, what explains the wholesale conversion of the population in those places? Brute force is quite clearly ruled out.


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## khair_ctg

Joe Shearer said:


> @kalu_miah
> 
> Although Eaton's thesis is wholly convincing in the case of east Bengal, there is still a disturbing quiggle in one's mind about the universality of his explanation. He explains the creation of an unexpectedly large Muslim population isolated from other major centres of Muslim population through the expanding agricultural frontier and its demographic consequences. Presumably, there are similar reasons to explain the existence of two other pockets widely separated from other Muslim populations, the Malays of the peninsula and the Indonesians. Was there such a shifting of the agricultural frontier in those countries as well? If not, what explains the wholesale conversion of the population in those places? Brute force is quite clearly ruled out.


this Eaton work for a large part revolves around the eastward moving empires into Bengal. i don't see how you are denying this theme all over this Eaton work and this obvious trend that did take place. i hope you also noticed some parts in this Eaton work talking about uncomfortable experiences of newly-settled Muslims in the more highly vegetated and humid Bengal. to deny ANY eastward migration to Bengal is to deny all administrations, and all the communities that grew under them, from Bakhtiyar Khilji there on. the only way to support that theory is by imagining there was an invisible shield stopping any Muslim migrants before reaching Bengal, except a handful of military leaders and peers to do the converting of masses before heading back out of Bengal during their lifetimes. 

the Bengali language and vocabulary associated with Muslims, i.e. Musalman Bangla, and the prevalence of Farsi, Urdu and Arabic languages itself supports ANY migration, besides all the Muslim cultural elements prevalent among Bengali Muslims - it is not even a subject of concern. what is of concern and can be debated is how much migration. if you are asking "where is the Persian-Bengali composite culture?" i would say that you have been looking at it. because of an almost exclusive dependence on Farsi-Urdu-Arabic, arguably there was relatively more influence of those three 'Muslim languages' in Bengal even compared to places like Punjab, where the Musalman Punjabi language itself had a robust patronage from and development by the Muslim


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## asad71

@
*Joe Shearer*, 
*khair_ctg*, 
*kalu_miah*

Fols need to be noted, in my view:
a. Eastern and Southern parts of BD used to be North Arakan under the Sultanate of Arakan and Buddhist Moghs till these were annexed under Gov Shayesta Khan,1658. They were predominantly Muslims of Arab/semi-Arab origin. Physical features, local dialect,some customs and temperament of these Bengalee Muslims are different from those of West orNorth.
b. Almost all conversions in Hindustan,including Bengal, took place among high-cast/Brahmins/Khatryas. The reason is simple. These people wanted to continue in military and civil service - and prosper.These convertees invariably retained their tribal/family/cast/ja'at identity. In BD we have Muslim Thakurs,Biswas,Mazumdar,Chaudhury, Khastagir, etc.
c. Not so much Mughal-Uzbek as Afghan-Persian settlement took place in BD.The Suri dynasty was ours. Having been cornered into the east, the Afghan-Persians had long struggled against the Mughal-Uzbeks from their power base here. Most of our Muslim elites were not only Persian speaking, but were Shias too. With passage of time Urdu came into use although Persian had continued to be the official/court language. Time also allowed the predominant Sunni sect to overpower with the result that none now call himself a Shiah.
d. Diet,customs and celibacy gradually depleted the Hindu and Buddhist population while Muslims multiplied.

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## Joe Shearer

khair_ctg said:


> this Eaton work for a large part revolves around the eastward moving empires into Bengal. i don't see how you are denying this theme all over this Eaton work and this obvious trend that did take place. i hope you also noticed some parts in this Eaton work talking about uncomfortable experiences of newly-settled Muslims in the more highly vegetated and humid Bengal. to deny ANY eastward migration to Bengal is to deny all administrations, and all the communities that grew under them, from Bakhtiyar Khilji there on. the only way to support that theory is by imagining there was an invisible shield stopping any Muslim migrants before reaching Bengal, except a handful of military leaders and peers to do the converting of masses before heading back out of Bengal during their lifetimes.



Apparently your reading is as casual and relaxed as your manners.

I was referring to Easton's recurring assertion that there was no migration from the western part of Bengal to the eastern part of Bengal, and you seem to have misunderstood this entirely, perhaps because you have not bothered to read the original or the citation carefully.



khair_ctg said:


> the Bengali language and vocabulary associated with Muslims, i.e. Musalman Bangla, and the prevalence of Farsi, Urdu and Arabic languages itself supports ANY migration, besides all the Muslim cultural elements prevalent among Bengali Muslims - it is not even a subject of concern.



A circular argument.

If there is no proof of eastward migration, the Bengali language and vocabulary associated with Muslims, i.e., Mussalman Bangla, is a living witness to that migration; if there is no proof of the Bengali language and vocabulary being exclusively associated with Muslims in any manner, then the fact of eastward migration shows that such an exclusively Muslim dialect must have existed.

All the features that you have mentioned are of recent origin, at most dating to the Mughals, and in fact, there is counterbalancing evidence:



> During the seventeenth century, however, the empire’s foreign character steadily diminished. By the end of that century, just over a third of the nobility were of known Iranian or Turkish ancestry, and fewer than a quarter of these were foreign-born immigrants.[19] Already by Jahangir’s reign there had emerged in the imperial corps an important and growing section of Muslims who, while claiming a paternal ancestry beyond the Khyber, had been born in India of Indian mothers. These persons not only spoke a form of vernacular Hindi-Urdu as their “mother tongue”; they also carried with them deeply held assumptions about life and death that for several centuries had been nurtured in North India within the matrix of Rajput culture.
> 
> Thus, for example, when the Mughal governor Qasim Khan faced imminent defeat in a bitterly fought battle near Dhaka in 1617, he personally beheaded his chief wives, after which many of his comrades similarly performed the rites of murdering their own families in one another’s presence.[20] The practice of _jūhar_, or the destruction of women and children as an alternative to suffering them to be captured by enemy forces, was a Rajput rite assimilated into imperial culture through Akbar’s policy of incorporating Rajputs into the Mughal corps and the inclusion of Rajput women in the Mughal harem. Now it was carried into Bengal. Similarly, too, Mughal officials in Bengal preferred Ayurvedic, or native Indian, medical theory over the Yunani, or Greek (“Yunani” is a corruption of “Ionian”), medical system inherited by classical Islamic civilization. The ailing Islam Khan, himself an Indian Muslim, requested an Indian physician when he neared death. There not being one available, the governor only reluctantly accepted a Muslim _ḥakīm_, who was later blamed for having administered the wrong treatment and unnecessarily killing him.[21] When the governor of Bihar suffered from an illness that paralyzed half his body, the Emperor Jahangir sent him two Indian physicians from amongst his personal staff.[22] And when illness seized Mirza Nathan, the officer’s advisors sent for a practitioner of Ayurvedic medicine (_kabirāj_) who successfully treated him by consulting the appropriate astrological signs and having him drink a poisonous drug mixed with lemon juice and ginger.[23] Such reliance on Indian systems of medical therapy in the face of fatal illness and on Rajput customs when faced with immanent annihilation in battle—both of them life-threatening situations—suggests how thoroughly Indian values had penetrated Mughal culture by the early seventeenth century.



Would you like to pick another card?




khair_ctg said:


> what is of concern and can be debated is how much migration. if you are asking "where is the Persian-Bengali composite culture?" i would say that you have been looking at it. because of an almost exclusive dependence on Farsi-Urdu-Arabic, arguably there was relatively more influence of those three 'Muslim languages' in Bengal even compared to places like Punjab, where the Musalman Punjabi language itself had a robust patronage from and development by the Muslim



Every one of the copious citations made contradict the possibility of this Farsi-Urdu-Arabic dialect of Bengali. All we have on the other side of the balance is your 'arguably'. Not a shred of evidence; only the attempted re-creation of a non-existent past by Muslim searches for identity in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

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## Joe Shearer

asad71 said:


> @
> *Joe Shearer*,
> *khair_ctg*,
> *kalu_miah*
> 
> Fols need to be noted, in my view:
> a. Eastern and Southern parts of BD used to be North Arakan under the Sultanate of Arakan and Buddhist Moghs till these were annexed under Gov Shayesta Khan,1658. They were predominantly Muslims of Arab/semi-Arab origin. Physical features, local dialect,some customs and temperament of these Bengalee Muslims are different from those of West orNorth.
> b. Almost all conversions in Hindustan,including Bengal, took place among high-cast/Brahmins/Khatryas. The reason is simple. These people wanted to continue in military and civil service - and prosper.These convertees invariably retained their tribal/family/cast/ja'at identity. In BD we have Muslim Thakurs,Biswas,Mazumdar,Chaudhury, Khastagir, etc.
> c. Not so much Mughal-Uzbek as Afghan-Persian settlement took place in BD.The Suri dynasty was ours. Having been cornered into the east, the Afghan-Persians had long struggled against the Mughal-Uzbeks from their power base here. Most of our Muslim elites were not only Persian speaking, but were Shias too. With passage of time Urdu came into use although Persian had continued to be the official/court language. Time also allowed the predominant Sunni sect to overpower with the result that none now call himself a Shiah.
> d. Diet,customs and celibacy gradually depleted the Hindu and Buddhist population while Muslims multiplied.



As it happens, we have gone over this ground before, perhaps in posts that may not have come to your attention. Please allow me to rehearse those arguments once more.

First, it is a fallacy referring to the Suri rulers as 'ours'. Please look at the time lines, and the movements of Sher Shah Suri. He was born outside Bengal, lived outside Bengal, and raided Bengal exactly once, to confront Mahmud Shah. When he toppled Mahmud Shah finally, in 1538, he never even went to Bengal, but sent his generals instead.

How can anyone claim this Afghan from Bihar as Bengali?

At (a), we encounter our old friend, the Migration Theory. This has been sufficiently discredited by Eaton; please read him again.

At (b), we encounter the Religion of Patronage Theory. You will appreciate that we either need to accept an argument or rebuff it with facts and deductions from those facts. It does not help merely to re-state it.

Point (c) puzzles me. Where do you locate these Afghan-Persians? The whole argument rotates around the circumstances that the initial locations of the Afghans were in the north and the west (of Bengal), and that the east remained impervious to Muslim presence until very late. Until the Mughals shifted their capital to Dhaka, there was no majority Muslim presence in east Bengal.

With your permission, I shall return to your post later.

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## Joe Shearer

Is nobody else interested in this fascinating analysis which @kalu_miah has brought to our attention? It is a very short book, and exceedingly well written, also, from the bibliography and the notes, very well researched.


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## Joe Shearer

Even in the east, Islamicisation was late in coming. 



> Unlike the population of the northern frontier region, however, and despite the pillaging of village communities as had occurred in the campaign against Ananta Manik, the people of eastern Bengal did not mount a prolonged resistance to the imposition of Mughal authority. On the contrary, for much of this region’s population, political submission was gradually followed by the adoption of a distinctly Islamic identity. In the Dhaka region, Muslim peasant communities were reported as early as 1599, even as the balance of power in the region was shifting from ‘Isa Khan to Raja Man Singh. Such communities were also reported in the Noakhali region in the 1630s, and in the Rangpur region in the 1660s (see pp. 132–34 above). Map 3 indicates that by 1872, when the earliest reliable census data come to hand, Muslims predominated in Bengal’s eastern districts in proportions ranging from 60 to 90 percent, in contrast to western districts, where they shaded off from less than 40 percent of the total to virtually zero along the delta’s western edge.
> 
> Clearly, given its extraordinary incidence of Islamization, the cultural evolution of the east departed radically from that of the rest of the delta—or, for that matter, the rest of India. Yet Mughal policy, which in any case was not directed at converting the “natives,” does not appear to have been applied any differently in the east than in the west. Nor is there any evidence that Sufis were any more pious, preachers any more zealous, or warriors any more courageous in East Bengal than were those in the west. For so different an outcome to have occurred, there must have been other factors or forces operating in the east that were altogether unique to the region.



I wonder, under the circumstances, how was Farsi-Urdu-Arabic fostered and nurtured? By whom? where?


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## INDIC

Joe Shearer said:


> Is nobody else interested in this fascinating analysis which @kalu_miah has brought to our attention? It is a very short book, and exceedingly well written, also, from the bibliography and the notes, very well researched.



Joe Sir, why British didn't promote Urdu in Bengal unlike making Urdu as the provincial language of Punjab after securing the Hindi-Urdu divide in UP.


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## Joe Shearer

@INDIC 

I'm not very sure why they should have promoted Urdu in Bengal at all. What would be the purpose? when they had a perfectly good language already? And the relevant dates were exactly a century apart: don't forget we are looking at the period between 1757 to 1857. When would they have had time to do all this language promotion?

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## notsuperstitious

INDIC said:


> Joe Sir, why British didn't promote Urdu in Bengal unlike making Urdu as the provincial language of Punjab after securing the Hindi-Urdu divide in UP.


 
Probably because the idea was to divide, whereas such a move would have backfired and united instead?


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## INDIC

Joe Shearer said:


> @INDIC
> 
> I'm not very sure why they should have promoted Urdu in Bengal at all. What would be the purpose? when they had a perfectly good language already? And the relevant dates were exactly a century apart: don't forget we are looking at the period between 1757 to 1857. When would they have had time to do all this language promotion?



In every province British promoted the local language, when it came to Punjab, they brought an official language from outside and neglected the Punjabi language even though Punjabi had very rich medieval literature of Baba Farid, Bulleh Shah and Waris Shah. I also read that in many languages of British India like Sindhi or Malayalam languages both Arabic and native Indian scripts were used but everywhere they made a common standard with a single writing system only in case of UP-Bihar the language got divided into Hindi-Urdu after they tried to enforce Arabic script on the Hindu majority of UP-Bihar in 1837 leading to widespread unacceptance and decades of court case to get Hindi in Devanagari script to be recognized. After the Hindi-Urdu division, Urdu emerged as some symbol of Muslim identity and readily accepted as the provincial language of Punjab. Since, Urdu never penetrated in Bengal, the language conflict came into wide open between East and West Pakistan.



notsuperstitious said:


> Probably because the idea was to divide, whereas such a move would have backfired and united instead?



I believe Bengal was in their 'neglect list' of divide and rule until the partition of Bengal in 1905, British seemed mainly focused towards UP and North-West.

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## Joe Shearer

INDIC said:


> In every province British promoted the local language, when it came to Punjab, they brought an official language from outside and neglected the Punjabi language even though Punjabi had very rich medieval literature of Baba Farid, Bulleh Shah and Waris Shah. I also read that in many languages of British India like Sindhi or Malayalam languages both Arabic and native Indian scripts were used but everywhere they made a common standard with a single writing system only in case of UP-Bihar the language got divided into Hindi-Urdu after they tried to enforce Arabic script on the Hindu majority of UP-Bihar in 1837 leading to widespread unacceptance and decades of court case to get Hindi in Devanagari script to be recognized. After the Hindi-Urdu division, Urdu emerged as some symbol of Muslim identity and readily accepted as the provincial language of Punjab. Since, Urdu never penetrated in Bengal, the language conflict came into wide open between East and West Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe Bengal was in their 'neglect list' of divide and rule until the partition of Bengal in 1905, British seemed mainly focused towards UP and North-West.




Actually, the honest answer, @INDIC, would be that I don't know. I need to read about language politics in these regions and get back to you.


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## kalu_miah

Joe Shearer said:


> Hang on for a moment.
> 
> Both you and my Indian friends have the impression that this was some kind of exposure of your position.
> 
> Please read my repeated statement. I have cited, again and again, at one stage, before every post, your own post where you said that I had a wrong impression. There was a question, had you read the book, and there was a statement, that it would appall a chauvinist.
> 
> Having read the book - and thank you very kindly for introducing me to Eaton - I think that he has made a dramatic point: that the phenomenon of an overwhelmingly Muslim population in this isolated part of the world is due to a very special kind of agrarian expansion that occurred here, very late in the day, not very early. He has taken into account the four conventional reasons for this population,
> 
> Migration
> Forcible conversion
> Patronage
> Social liberation
> and has carefully, systematically dissected each of them, and disproved them. What is left is only the clear dating of the expansion of the Muslim population, which he assigns to as late as the Mughal period, an astounding assertion, contrary to everything that we had held earlier - certainly contrary to what I believed before reading this wholly persuasive book.
> 
> Since you have read the book, the question arises - what exactly is it that I seek to convey to you?
> 
> First, that it is a refutation of various chauvinist views that we have read here. Ironically, it shatters the illusions of both Muslim chauvinists, that the population was due to mass migration, that the Muslims of Bengal are really migrants who immigrated en masse, and the Hindu chauvinists, who claim variously that this population came into being due to the threat of violence, or that they are all former Hindus and Buddhists who converted due to either, slightingly, a desire to get out of the oppressed status as non-Muslims that they occupied, or, on the lines of the Ambedkar/Dalit argument, that they sought Social Liberation (my view till now).
> 
> All of us who advocated this, that or the other are now sitting here with egg on our faces, some of us, who have just read the book, with a happy smile under the yolk.
> 
> Second, that it is no longer a question of a long-standing composite Muslim Bengali culture, a view that was put forward so earnestly and sincerely by various sections, the @asad71 and @khair_ctg view among others, if I understood them correctly. Far from being long-standing, this was as late as the 16th century, perhaps later, and is after the Mughal conquest of Bengal. It is after the shift eastwards of the main channel of the Ganga eastwards, and the consequent opening up of vast forest areas for exploitation and conversion to agricultural, and the directly linked sudden expansion of the population under conditions of greater security and prosperity.
> 
> Third, that one of us, and I shall not name the individual, lands up with, not egg, but some other yellow and in that particular case vile-smelling substance on the face. Eaton proves decisively, and that is the reason for my extensive citations, that there was nothing like a composite Bengalo-Persian cultural composite which was built up in the centuries that passed between Bakhtiyar Khalji and the partitions of Bengal. Every citation, every paragraph of his book makes it very clear that it was the original culture and language that prevailed over the invaders, and that what remained, before the Mughal intervention, was a largely traditional and native tradition of kingship and rule, overlaid by the necessities of Islamic rule, the striking of coins and reading of the khutba, the legal system, in some aspects, and the influences at the very top, at the level of the Sultan himself, other than during the interregnum, if I may call it that, of Ganesh and his son. The Husain Shahis apparently were content to rule, and to allow some aspects of the earlier traditions of kingship to return, rather than stick to the straight and narrow path recommended by the Sufi savants.
> 
> Fourth, I believe that there are chauvinists here, of both sides, and I am wholly ready to believe, based on your remarks in your latest post, that you are not one of them. I also agree with you that the work is brilliant, nothing short of that, and has entirely converted me to this point of view. Your assertion that other south Asian histories - you mention Hindu, but I beg to draw your attention to this being a general malaise, not leaving out the Christians (Europeans) or Muslims (Indian, Persian, Turkish, Arabic) - were either biased, or plain incompetent or simply lacked any sense of context about how events unfolded, and about the intimate connection at some points of time between Central Asia and Bengal, are perfectly valid.
> 
> Incidentally, I read those parts with a sense of disbelief and a dawning enlightenment, as having thrown clear and lucid light on some aspects that were simply not making sense without this connection having existed.
> 
> If these views are yours, you are clearly an unbiased observer and analyst, perhaps even an historian by education, and also clearly not a chauvinist, at least not here , not now. I have no reason to doubt your statement that you hold these views.
> 
> I sincerely hope that this will set to rest the concept that what is being advocated in this thread is justified by tradition and past practice.
> 
> What remains is the path that the people of Bangladesh set for themselves in future, as a sovereign, independent nation. If they set themselves to reminding themselves of their membership of the Islamic community by changing the script in which Bengali is written, it is their sovereign desire, and good luck to them. There is nothing that anyone else can or should say. That, however, will be decided outside this forum. If such a debate arises, I, for one, shall watch it from the galleries with the keenest academic interest and no personal concern or emotional involvement, as being, ultimately, none of my business.
> 
> I hope that this will make my own position clear, and also the reason for such extensive citation. Far from my correcting gaps in your knowledge, this is an acknowledgement that gaps in my own knowledge have been corrected. However, it also puts to rest the canard that Bengalo-Persian culture prevailed in the centuries past. Instead, it makes it clear that it was at best restricted to the very short Mughal rule over Bengal, and throws new light on the Bengal Renaissance, correcting the impression that it was an entirely innovative, Eurocentric breakthrough and also the impression that it was a Bengali Hindu revenge on the Muslim elite, taken under cover of British patronage.
> 
> 
> 
> I think Eaton has put this argument in its place. There is no need to spend time uselessly arguing over this obvious fallacy or to indulge in this sort of fantasising:
> 
> 
> 
> Poppycock.



I am glad you liked the book and the presented thesis of Agrarian expansion in the book. I will get back with a detailed reply to this post later.


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## kalu_miah

Joe Shearer said:


> @kalu_miah
> 
> Although Eaton's thesis is wholly convincing in the case of east Bengal, there is still a disturbing quiggle in one's mind about the universality of his explanation. He explains the creation of an unexpectedly large Muslim population isolated from other major centres of Muslim population through the expanding agricultural frontier and its demographic consequences. Presumably, there are similar reasons to explain the existence of two other pockets widely separated from other Muslim populations, the Malays of the peninsula and the Indonesians. Was there such a shifting of the agricultural frontier in those countries as well? If not, what explains the wholesale conversion of the population in those places? Brute force is quite clearly ruled out.



Spread of Islam in Southeast Asia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204–1760

"*Finally, from a world history perspective, the Bengali experience with religious growth was perhaps not at all unique. There is at least one other case—western Java—in which Islam grew in tandem with deforestation, agrarian expansion, and the establishment of small mosques on lands granted by the state.[19]* A better-known parallel is found in the history of Christianity in northern Europe. From the sixth century and especially between the eleventh and thirteenth centuries (“_l’âge des grands défrichements_,” according to French writers), monastic orders like the Benedictines and the Cistercians actively planted monasteries in wooded regions, where they took the lead in clearing forests, converting unbelievers, and extending agriculture. Especially noteworthy are the religious aspects of this process: the desacralization of the forest, the Christianization of native peoples, and the sanctification of pioneering monks.[20] “As they pushed into the woodlands and felled the trees,” writes Richard Koebner, monks “helped to dispel that religious awe which the Germans had to overcome before they would attack thick forest. The attraction of the Church’s miraculous powers was transferred to the holy men in the woods, and brought the laity to settle near them.”[21] Although the early movement’s austere pioneers were succeeded by rich landlords who managed wealthy estates, we should not ignore the civilization-building role that monastic establishments had earlier played in the forests of northern Europe.

Viewed historically, religious systems are created, cultural artifacts, and not timeless structures lying beyond human societies. As such they are continuously reinterpreted and readapted to particular sociocultural environments. Yet even while this happens, religious traditions transform those environments in creative ways. Herein lies, perhaps, the secret of the successful world religions, for when they are not flexible or adaptable, they tend to ossify into hollow shells, and survive only in museums or forgotten texts. Christianity would never have flourished—and perhaps not even have survived—had it not absorbed a great part of both the imperial culture and the Germanic popular culture of the late Roman Empire.[22]

This is no less true of Islam and the Bengal frontier. In the “success stories” of world religions, and the story of Islam in Bengal is among these, the norms of religion and the realities of local sociocultural systems ultimately accommodate one another. Although theorists, theologians, or reformers may resist this point, it seems nonetheless to be intuitively grasped by common folk. A famous proverb, known throughout Bengal and northern India and uttered usually with a smile, implicitly links social status with Islamically legitimated titles:

The first year I was a Shaikh, the second year a Khan;

This year if the price of grain is low I’ll become a Saiyid.[23]

What made Islam in Bengal not only historically successful but a continuing vital social reality has been its capacity to adapt to the land and the culture of its people, even while transforming both."

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## Joe Shearer

What a stunning analysis! It actually explains the thin fringe of Hindu land-owners and the vast bulk of Muslim peasants in historical and economic terms.

As a descendant on my mother's side of Baidyas from Barisal, this resonates very strongly. 



> This passage hints at the origins of the distinctive land tenure system that emerged in Mughal East Bengal. In order to maintain their claims to social dominance in a region chronically short of resident Brahmans, high-caste Hindus already established in the southern delta encouraged and probably financed the settlement of other high-caste _zamīndār_s in the region.[88] But such Hindus predominated only at the upper reaches of the tenure chain, for, as Jack noted, social taboos prevented them from undertaking cultivation themselves. On the other hand, those same classes—typically Brahman or Baidya traders and moneylenders—had accumulated sufficient capital to advance loans to sublessees; and these, in turn, hired sublessees below them, and so on, until one reached the mass of cultivators at the bottom of the tenure chain. Whether recruited from amongst indigenous peoples or brought in from the outside, these latter worked as ordinary cultivators on lands newly reclaimed from the jungle.





kalu_miah said:


> Spread of Islam in Southeast Asia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204–1760
> 
> "Finally, from a world history perspective, the Bengali experience with religious growth was perhaps not at all unique. There is at least one other case—western Java—in which Islam grew in tandem with deforestation, agrarian expansion, and the establishment of small mosques on lands granted by the state.[19] A better-known parallel is found in the history of Christianity in northern Europe. From the sixth century and especially between the eleventh and thirteenth centuries (“_l’âge des grands défrichements_,” according to French writers), monastic orders like the Benedictines and the Cistercians actively planted monasteries in wooded regions, where they took the lead in clearing forests, converting unbelievers, and extending agriculture. Especially noteworthy are the religious aspects of this process: the desacralization of the forest, the Christianization of native peoples, and the sanctification of pioneering monks.[20] “As they pushed into the woodlands and felled the trees,” writes Richard Koebner, monks “helped to dispel that religious awe which the Germans had to overcome before they would attack thick forest. The attraction of the Church’s miraculous powers was transferred to the holy men in the woods, and brought the laity to settle near them.”[21] Although the early movement’s austere pioneers were succeeded by rich landlords who managed wealthy estates, we should not ignore the civilization-building role that monastic establishments had earlier played in the forests of northern Europe.
> 
> Viewed historically, religious systems are created, cultural artifacts, and not timeless structures lying beyond human societies. As such they are continuously reinterpreted and readapted to particular sociocultural environments. Yet even while this happens, religious traditions transform those environments in creative ways. Herein lies, perhaps, the secret of the successful world religions, for when they are not flexible or adaptable, they tend to ossify into hollow shells, and survive only in museums or forgotten texts. Christianity would never have flourished—and perhaps not even have survived—had it not absorbed a great part of both the imperial culture and the Germanic popular culture of the late Roman Empire.[22]
> 
> This is no less true of Islam and the Bengal frontier. In the “success stories” of world religions, and the story of Islam in Bengal is among these, the norms of religion and the realities of local sociocultural systems ultimately accommodate one another. Although theorists, theologians, or reformers may resist this point, it seems nonetheless to be intuitively grasped by common folk. A famous proverb, known throughout Bengal and northern India and uttered usually with a smile, implicitly links social status with Islamically legitimated titles:
> 
> The first year I was a Shaikh, the second year a Khan;
> 
> This year if the price of grain is low I’ll become a Saiyid.[23]
> 
> What made Islam in Bengal not only historically successful but a continuing vital social reality has been its capacity to adapt to the land and the culture of its people, even while transforming both."



I had read this and wasn't sure about the robustness of the analysis. It isn't as gripping, as convincing as his analysis of Bengal. Actually, as far as his remarks about Europe are concerned, I am rather more familiar with that, being better acquainted with European history than Asian (other than Indian).

But point well made and taken.

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## Vinod2070

Anubis said:


> *A better idea would be for you to just migrate to a country where people use those scripts....and if you don't have the money we have plenty of camps in Dhaka where people who use those scripts live....make yourself comfortable and go live there and pray to a god of your preference so that magical fairies from heaven come down to change my script*.....do not waste cyberspace with your horse shit....you give my people a bad name!
> 
> 
> Madrasah education.....I'm quite surprised they actually know the name of a script other than farsi and arabic!



That should be simple enough!

Why pollute an Indo Aryan language based on Sanskrit? Why not start speaking the original language they are so obsessed about?

Or better still (as you recommend) get the hell back to the desert!


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## kalu_miah

@Joe Shearer you may find this page interesting and its relevant to the topic of this thread as well:
(something strange going on after the mention of the word amulet)

The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204–1760

*Literacy and Islamization*
Although the growth of Islam in Bengal witnessed no neat or uniform progression from inclusion to identification to displacement, one does see, at least in the eastern delta, a general drive toward the eventual displacement of local divinities. In part, one can explain this in terms of Bengal’s integration, since the late sixteenth century, into a pan-Indian, and indeed, a global civilization. *Akbar’s 1574 conquest of the northwestern delta established a pattern by which the whole delta would be politically and economically integrated with North India. What was unique about the east, however, was that prior to the late sixteenth century, its hinterland had remained relatively undeveloped and isolated as compared with the west; hence the expansion of Mughal power there was accompanied by the establishment of new agrarian communities and not simply the integration of old ones. Composed partly of outsiders—emigrants from West Bengal or even North India—and partly of newly peasantized indigenous communities of former fishermen or shifting cultivators, these communities typically coalesced around the many rural mosques, shrines, or Qur’an schools built by enterprising pioneers who had contracted with the government to transform tracts of virgin jungle into fields of cultivated paddy.*

It was mainly in the east, moreover, that political incorporation was accompanied by the intrusion and eventual primacy of Islamic superhuman agencies in local cosmologies. Contributing to this was the very nature of Islamic religious authority, which does not flow from priests, magicians, or other mortal agents, but from a medium that is ultimately immortal and unchallengeable—written scripture. The connection between literacy and divine power in Islam is perfectly explicit.[73] Moreover, well before their rise to prominence in Bengal, Muslims had already constructed a great world civilization around the Qur’an and the vast corpus of literature making up Islamic Law. It is therefore not coincidental that Muslims have described theirs as the “religion of the Book.”

It is true, of course, that the Hindu tradition is also scripturally based. As living repositories of Vedic learning, or at least of traditions that derive legitimacy from that learning, Brahmans “represent” scriptural authority in a way roughly analogous to the way Muslim men of piety mediate, and thus “represent,” the Qur’an. *By the time of the Turkish conquest, a scripturally based religious culture under Brahman leadership had already become well entrenched in the dense and socially stratified society of the western delta. In this context, the intrusion of another scripturally defined religious culture, Islam, failed to have a significant impact. But the coherence of the Brahmanic socioreligious order progressively diminished as one moved from west to east across the delta, rendering the preliterate masses of the east without an authority structure sufficient to withstand that of Islam. Among these peoples the rustic shrines, mosques, and Qur’an schools that we have been examining introduced a type of religious authority that was fundamentally new and of greater power relative to what had been there previously.* “In non-literate societies,” writes J. D.Y. Peel, a scholar of religious change in modern West Africa,

the past is perceived as entirely servant of the needs of the present, things are forgotten and myth is constructed to justify contemporary arrangements; there are no dictionary definitions of words.…In religion there is no sense of impersonal or universal orthodoxy of doctrine; legitimate belief is as a particular priest or elder expounds it. But where the essence of religion is the Word of God, where all arguments are resolved by an appeal to an unchangeable written authority, where those who formulate new beliefs at a time of crisis commit themselves by writing and publishing pamphlets…religion acquires a rigid basis. “Structural amnesia” is hardly possible; what was thought in the past commits men to particular courses of action in the present; religion comes to be thought of as a system of rules, emanating from an absolute and universal God, which are quite external to the thinker, and to which he must conform and bend himself, if he would be saved.[74]

In eastern Bengal, where Brahmans were thinly scattered, the analog to Peel’s “particular priest or elder” was typically a local ritualist who was neither literate nor a Brahman. True, the mosque builders, rural _mullā_s, or charismatic _pīr_s who fanned out over the eastern plains may also have been illiterate; moreover, the basis of their authority, like that of indigenous non-Muslim ritualists, was often charismatic in nature. But what is important is that these same men patronized Qur’an readers and “readers of_fātiḥa_,” who, even if themselves only semi-literate in Arabic, were seen as representing the authority of the written word as opposed to the ad hoc, localized, and transient authority of indigenous ritualists.[75] Therefore, with the introduction of Qur’an readers, Qur’an schools, and “readers of _fātiḥa_” into the delta, the relatively fluid and expansive cosmology of pre-Muslim eastern Bengal began to resolve into one favoring the primacy of Allah and the Prophet Muhammad. As Peel puts it, religion began to acquire “a rigid basis.”

*Further facilitating the growth of this “religion of the Book” in Bengal was the diffusion of paper and of papermaking technology. Introduced from Central Asia into North India in the thirteenth century by Persianized Turks, by the fifteenth century the technology of paper production had found its way into Bengal, where it eventually replaced the palm leaf.[76] Already in 1432, the Chinese visitor Ma Huan remarked that the Bengalis’ “paper is white; it is made out of the bark of a tree, and is as smooth and glossy as deer’s skin.”[77] And by the close of the sixteenth century the poet Mukundaram noted the presence of whole communities of Muslim papermakers (kāgajī) in Bengali cities.[78]The revolutionary impact that the technology of literacy made on premodern Bengali society is suggested in the ordinary Bengali words for paper (kāgaj) and pen (kalam), both of which are corrupted loan words from Perso-Arabic. It is also significant that on Bengal’s expanding agrarian frontier, the introduction of papermaking technology coincided with the rise of a Muslim religious gentry whose authority structure was ultimately based on the written word—scripture. While it would be the crudest technological determinism to say that the diffusion of paper production simply caused the growth of Islam in Bengal or elsewhere, it is certainly true that this more efficient technology of knowledge led to more books, which in turn promoted a greater familiarity with at least the idea of literacy, and that this greater familiarity led, in turn, to the association of the written word with religious authority.*

*Serving to check the growth of the “religion of the Book,” however, was the fact that the book in question, the Qur’an, was written in a language unknown to the masses of Bengali society. Moreover, since the Qur’an had been revealed in Arabic, in Bengal as elsewhere fear of tampering with the word of God inhibited its outright translation. As we have seen, Bengali Muslims were extremely reluctant to translate even Islamic popular lore into Bengali. Of course, they could have done what many other non-Arab Muslims did—that is, retain their own language for written discourse but render it in the Arabic script, as happened in Iran (modern Persian) and North India (Urdu). The transliteration of any language into Arabic script not only facilitates the assimilation of Arabic vocabulary but fosters a psychological bond between non-Arab and Arab Muslims. In the seventeenth century, in fact, attempts were made to do the same for Bengali. The Dhaka Museum has a manuscript work composed in 1645 entitled Maqtul Husain—a tract treating the death of Husain at Karbala—written in Bengali but using the Arabic, and not the Bengali, script.[79] Although subsequent writers made similar such literary attempts,[80] it is significant that the effort never took hold, with the result that Bengali Muslims remain today the world’s largest body of Muslims who, despite Islamization, have retained both their language and their script.[81]*

Since Islamic scripture was neither translated nor transliterated in premodern Bengal, it not surprisingly first entered mass culture in a magical, as opposed to liturgical, context. In Ksemananda’s _Manasā-Maṅgala_, a work composed in the mid seventeenth century, we hear that in the house of one of the poem’s Hindu figures (Laksmindhara, son of Chand), a copy of the Qur’an was kept along with other charms for the purpose of warding off evil influence.[82] From the remarks of Vijaya Gupta, a poet of East Bengal’s Barisal region, who wrote in 1494,[83] we find an even earlier reference to the same use of Muslim scripture. In this instance, the written word appeared not in a Hindu household but in the hands of a _mullā_. A group of seven weavers, evidently Muslims, since they resided in “Husainhati,” were bitten by snakes unleashed by the goddess Manasa and went to the court of the _qāẓī_ seeking help. Wrote the poet:

There was a teacher of the Qāḍī named Khālās…who always engaged himself in the study of the Qur’an and other religious books.…He said, if you ask me, I say, why are you afraid of demons [_bhūt_], when you have got the religious books. Write (extracts) from the book and hang it down the neck. If then also the demons (implying snakes) bite, I shall be held responsible. The Qāḍī accepted what the _Mullā_ said and all present took amulet from him (the _Mullā_).[84]

Here we see a Muslim ritualist mediating on the people’s behalf with a class of ubiquitous spirits, _bhūt_, that pervaded (and still pervades) the folk Bengali cosmology.[85]Moreover, the _mullā_ clearly used the scripture in a magical and not a liturgical context, for it was not by reading the holy book that he dealt with evil spirits but by having his clients wear written extracts from it around their necks—a usage that enjoyed the endorsement of the state-appointed Muslim judge, or _qāẓī_.[86] In modern times, too, one finds ritualists employing the magical power of the Qur’an for healing purposes in precisely the manner that _mullā_s had done three centuries earlier. In 1898 an _ojhā_, a local shamanlike ritualist, was observed in a village in Sylhet District using Qur’anic passages in his treatment of persons possessed by _bhūt_s.[87] And in recent years _ojhā_s among the non-Muslim Chakma tribesmen of the Chittagong Hill Tracts have been integrating Muslim scripture and Islamic superhuman agencies into their healing rituals, indicating the continued penetration of Islamic religious culture beyond the delta and into the adjacent mountains.[88]

On the other hand, European observers noted that Bengali _mullā_s also used the Qur’an in purely liturgical, as opposed to magical, contexts. In 1833 Francis Buchanan observed that in rural Dinajpur, _mullā_s “read, or repeat prayers or passages of the Koran at marriages, funerals, circumcisions, and sacrifices, for no Muslim will eat meat or fowl, over which prayers have not been repeated, before it has been killed.…According to the Kazis, many of these Mollas cannot read, and these only look at the book, while they repeat the passages.”[89] Although the _mullā_s observed by Buchanan were themselves unable to read, they were nonetheless understood by their village clients to be tapping into a transcendent source of power, the written word, fundamentally greater and more permanent than those known to local ritualists. In the same way, it was reported in 1898 that Muslim villagers in Sylhet “employ Mullahs _to read Koran Shariff_ and allow the merit thereof to be credited to the forefathers”[90]—an apparent reference to the same kind of _fātiḥa_ rituals that _sanad_s of the late seventeenth and early eighteenth centuries had authorized for rural mosques and shrines.

All of this points to a progressive expansion in the countryside of the culture of literacy—that is, a tendency to confer authority on written religious texts and on persons associated with them (whether or not they could read those texts). This expanding culture of literacy naturally facilitated the growth of the cult of those superhuman agencies with which that culture was most clearly identified. In short, as the idea of “the book-as-authority” grew among ever-widening circles of East Bengal’s rural society—a development clearly traceable from the sixteenth century—so too did the “religion of the Book,” with its emphasis on the cosmological supremacy of Allah.​

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## Joe Shearer

There are obviously two threads going on in parallel here. Thank Heavens for that.


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## kalu_miah

Joe Shearer said:


> What a stunning analysis! It actually explains the thin fringe of Hindu land-owners and the vast bulk of Muslim peasants in historical and economic terms.
> 
> As a descendant on my mother's side of Baidyas from Barisal, this resonates very strongly.
> 
> I had read this and wasn't sure about the robustness of the analysis. It isn't as gripping, as convincing as his analysis of Bengal. Actually, as far as his remarks about Europe are concerned, I am rather more familiar with that, being better acquainted with European history than Asian (other than Indian).
> 
> But point well made and taken.



Eaton does mention Western Java where Islam spread with Agrarian expansion similar to Bengal, I have highlighted it in bold in post #456 of this page.


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## Joe Shearer

kalu_miah said:


> @Joe Shearer you may find this page interesting and its relevant to the topic of this thread as well:
> (something strange going on after the mention of the word amulet)
> 
> The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204–1760
> 
> *Literacy and Islamization*
> Although the growth of Islam in Bengal witnessed no neat or uniform progression from inclusion to identification to displacement, one does see, at least in the eastern delta, a general drive toward the eventual displacement of local divinities. In part, one can explain this in terms of Bengal’s integration, since the late sixteenth century, into a pan-Indian, and indeed, a global civilization. *Akbar’s 1574 conquest of the northwestern delta established a pattern by which the whole delta would be politically and economically integrated with North India. What was unique about the east, however, was that prior to the late sixteenth century, its hinterland had remained relatively undeveloped and isolated as compared with the west; hence the expansion of Mughal power there was accompanied by the establishment of new agrarian communities and not simply the integration of old ones. Composed partly of outsiders—emigrants from West Bengal or even North India—and partly of newly peasantized indigenous communities of former fishermen or shifting cultivators, these communities typically coalesced around the many rural mosques, shrines, or Qur’an schools built by enterprising pioneers who had contracted with the government to transform tracts of virgin jungle into fields of cultivated paddy.*
> 
> It was mainly in the east, moreover, that political incorporation was accompanied by the intrusion and eventual primacy of Islamic superhuman agencies in local cosmologies. Contributing to this was the very nature of Islamic religious authority, which does not flow from priests, magicians, or other mortal agents, but from a medium that is ultimately immortal and unchallengeable—written scripture. The connection between literacy and divine power in Islam is perfectly explicit.[73] Moreover, well before their rise to prominence in Bengal, Muslims had already constructed a great world civilization around the Qur’an and the vast corpus of literature making up Islamic Law. It is therefore not coincidental that Muslims have described theirs as the “religion of the Book.”
> 
> It is true, of course, that the Hindu tradition is also scripturally based. As living repositories of Vedic learning, or at least of traditions that derive legitimacy from that learning, Brahmans “represent” scriptural authority in a way roughly analogous to the way Muslim men of piety mediate, and thus “represent,” the Qur’an. *By the time of the Turkish conquest, a scripturally based religious culture under Brahman leadership had already become well entrenched in the dense and socially stratified society of the western delta. In this context, the intrusion of another scripturally defined religious culture, Islam, failed to have a significant impact. But the coherence of the Brahmanic socioreligious order progressively diminished as one moved from west to east across the delta, rendering the preliterate masses of the east without an authority structure sufficient to withstand that of Islam. Among these peoples the rustic shrines, mosques, and Qur’an schools that we have been examining introduced a type of religious authority that was fundamentally new and of greater power relative to what had been there previously.* “In non-literate societies,” writes J. D.Y. Peel, a scholar of religious change in modern West Africa,
> 
> the past is perceived as entirely servant of the needs of the present, things are forgotten and myth is constructed to justify contemporary arrangements; there are no dictionary definitions of words.…In religion there is no sense of impersonal or universal orthodoxy of doctrine; legitimate belief is as a particular priest or elder expounds it. But where the essence of religion is the Word of God, where all arguments are resolved by an appeal to an unchangeable written authority, where those who formulate new beliefs at a time of crisis commit themselves by writing and publishing pamphlets…religion acquires a rigid basis. “Structural amnesia” is hardly possible; what was thought in the past commits men to particular courses of action in the present; religion comes to be thought of as a system of rules, emanating from an absolute and universal God, which are quite external to the thinker, and to which he must conform and bend himself, if he would be saved.[74]
> 
> In eastern Bengal, where Brahmans were thinly scattered, the analog to Peel’s “particular priest or elder” was typically a local ritualist who was neither literate nor a Brahman. True, the mosque builders, rural _mullā_s, or charismatic _pīr_s who fanned out over the eastern plains may also have been illiterate; moreover, the basis of their authority, like that of indigenous non-Muslim ritualists, was often charismatic in nature. But what is important is that these same men patronized Qur’an readers and “readers of_fātiḥa_,” who, even if themselves only semi-literate in Arabic, were seen as representing the authority of the written word as opposed to the ad hoc, localized, and transient authority of indigenous ritualists.[75] Therefore, with the introduction of Qur’an readers, Qur’an schools, and “readers of _fātiḥa_” into the delta, the relatively fluid and expansive cosmology of pre-Muslim eastern Bengal began to resolve into one favoring the primacy of Allah and the Prophet Muhammad. As Peel puts it, religion began to acquire “a rigid basis.”
> 
> *Further facilitating the growth of this “religion of the Book” in Bengal was the diffusion of paper and of papermaking technology. Introduced from Central Asia into North India in the thirteenth century by Persianized Turks, by the fifteenth century the technology of paper production had found its way into Bengal, where it eventually replaced the palm leaf.[76] Already in 1432, the Chinese visitor Ma Huan remarked that the Bengalis’ “paper is white; it is made out of the bark of a tree, and is as smooth and glossy as deer’s skin.”[77] And by the close of the sixteenth century the poet Mukundaram noted the presence of whole communities of Muslim papermakers (kāgajī) in Bengali cities.[78]The revolutionary impact that the technology of literacy made on premodern Bengali society is suggested in the ordinary Bengali words for paper (kāgaj) and pen (kalam), both of which are corrupted loan words from Perso-Arabic. It is also significant that on Bengal’s expanding agrarian frontier, the introduction of papermaking technology coincided with the rise of a Muslim religious gentry whose authority structure was ultimately based on the written word—scripture. While it would be the crudest technological determinism to say that the diffusion of paper production simply caused the growth of Islam in Bengal or elsewhere, it is certainly true that this more efficient technology of knowledge led to more books, which in turn promoted a greater familiarity with at least the idea of literacy, and that this greater familiarity led, in turn, to the association of the written word with religious authority.*
> 
> *Serving to check the growth of the “religion of the Book,” however, was the fact that the book in question, the Qur’an, was written in a language unknown to the masses of Bengali society. Moreover, since the Qur’an had been revealed in Arabic, in Bengal as elsewhere fear of tampering with the word of God inhibited its outright translation. As we have seen, Bengali Muslims were extremely reluctant to translate even Islamic popular lore into Bengali. Of course, they could have done what many other non-Arab Muslims did—that is, retain their own language for written discourse but render it in the Arabic script, as happened in Iran (modern Persian) and North India (Urdu). The transliteration of any language into Arabic script not only facilitates the assimilation of Arabic vocabulary but fosters a psychological bond between non-Arab and Arab Muslims. In the seventeenth century, in fact, attempts were made to do the same for Bengali. The Dhaka Museum has a manuscript work composed in 1645 entitled Maqtul Husain—a tract treating the death of Husain at Karbala—written in Bengali but using the Arabic, and not the Bengali, script.[79] Although subsequent writers made similar such literary attempts,[80] it is significant that the effort never took hold, with the result that Bengali Muslims remain today the world’s largest body of Muslims who, despite Islamization, have retained both their language and their script.[81]*
> 
> Since Islamic scripture was neither translated nor transliterated in premodern Bengal, it not surprisingly first entered mass culture in a magical, as opposed to liturgical, context. In Ksemananda’s _Manasā-Maṅgala_, a work composed in the mid seventeenth century, we hear that in the house of one of the poem’s Hindu figures (Laksmindhara, son of Chand), a copy of the Qur’an was kept along with other charms for the purpose of warding off evil influence.[82] From the remarks of Vijaya Gupta, a poet of East Bengal’s Barisal region, who wrote in 1494,[83] we find an even earlier reference to the same use of Muslim scripture. In this instance, the written word appeared not in a Hindu household but in the hands of a _mullā_. A group of seven weavers, evidently Muslims, since they resided in “Husainhati,” were bitten by snakes unleashed by the goddess Manasa and went to the court of the _qāẓī_ seeking help. Wrote the poet:
> 
> There was a teacher of the Qāḍī named Khālās…who always engaged himself in the study of the Qur’an and other religious books.…He said, if you ask me, I say, why are you afraid of demons [_bhūt_], when you have got the religious books. Write (extracts) from the book and hang it down the neck. If then also the demons (implying snakes) bite, I shall be held responsible. The Qāḍī accepted what the _Mullā_ said and all present took amulet from him (the _Mullā_).[84]
> 
> Here we see a Muslim ritualist mediating on the people’s behalf with a class of ubiquitous spirits, _bhūt_, that pervaded (and still pervades) the folk Bengali cosmology.[85]Moreover, the _mullā_ clearly used the scripture in a magical and not a liturgical context, for it was not by reading the holy book that he dealt with evil spirits but by having his clients wear written extracts from it around their necks—a usage that enjoyed the endorsement of the state-appointed Muslim judge, or _qāẓī_.[86] In modern times, too, one finds ritualists employing the magical power of the Qur’an for healing purposes in precisely the manner that _mullā_s had done three centuries earlier. In 1898 an _ojhā_, a local shamanlike ritualist, was observed in a village in Sylhet District using Qur’anic passages in his treatment of persons possessed by _bhūt_s.[87] And in recent years _ojhā_s among the non-Muslim Chakma tribesmen of the Chittagong Hill Tracts have been integrating Muslim scripture and Islamic superhuman agencies into their healing rituals, indicating the continued penetration of Islamic religious culture beyond the delta and into the adjacent mountains.[88]
> 
> On the other hand, European observers noted that Bengali _mullā_s also used the Qur’an in purely liturgical, as opposed to magical, contexts. In 1833 Francis Buchanan observed that in rural Dinajpur, _mullā_s “read, or repeat prayers or passages of the Koran at marriages, funerals, circumcisions, and sacrifices, for no Muslim will eat meat or fowl, over which prayers have not been repeated, before it has been killed.…According to the Kazis, many of these Mollas cannot read, and these only look at the book, while they repeat the passages.”[89] Although the _mullā_s observed by Buchanan were themselves unable to read, they were nonetheless understood by their village clients to be tapping into a transcendent source of power, the written word, fundamentally greater and more permanent than those known to local ritualists. In the same way, it was reported in 1898 that Muslim villagers in Sylhet “employ Mullahs _to read Koran Shariff_ and allow the merit thereof to be credited to the forefathers”[90]—an apparent reference to the same kind of _fātiḥa_ rituals that _sanad_s of the late seventeenth and early eighteenth centuries had authorized for rural mosques and shrines.
> 
> All of this points to a progressive expansion in the countryside of the culture of literacy—that is, a tendency to confer authority on written religious texts and on persons associated with them (whether or not they could read those texts). This expanding culture of literacy naturally facilitated the growth of the cult of those superhuman agencies with which that culture was most clearly identified. In short, as the idea of “the book-as-authority” grew among ever-widening circles of East Bengal’s rural society—a development clearly traceable from the sixteenth century—so too did the “religion of the Book,” with its emphasis on the cosmological supremacy of Allah.​



I had selected this passage as one of those to be reproduced, before, to my consternation, you took umbrage. It was chosen for much the same reason as you did, which is plain to read and comprehend.

Incidentally the use of phrases and sections of the Quran Sharif is still in use; they sometimes are placed within a taveez as a replacement for the magical formulae and numerological esoterics otherwise in use.

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## jarves

The Snow Queen said:


> Assam is not even in Bangladesh or part of Bengal! So where does that come from!? Okay listen, shit iron. I don't care, so stop bothering me now! And I don't give a damn about Assam!


You are dumber than i thought,read the posts above the post which you have quoted.



The Snow Queen said:


> No, you interpreted me wrong. And you think you are always right. You are so narcissistic!


I interpreted it perfectly.You are a liar or you have serious comprehension issues.

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## Joe Shearer

kalu_miah said:


> Eaton does mention Western Java where Islam spread with Agrarian expansion similar to Bengal, I have highlighted it in bold in post #456 of this page.



Yes, indeed, I had noticed, but felt it could do with a different level of detailed analysis. No doubt he has referred to such works in his notes (I am compiling the books within them to try and expand my library; far from being a reasonably good cover, it turns out to be peculiarly skewed. How I wish I was rich, or that the university was).
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
An appeal to those participating in this thread: those who wish to troll and slay trolls, could you, very kindly, keep your posts in the colour teal? This will help us to skip those and get to others of our interest.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Why were Baidyas zamindars only in east Bengal, rarely, or never, in the west?


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## kalu_miah

Joe Shearer said:


> Yes, indeed, I had noticed, but felt it could do with a different level of detailed analysis. No doubt he has referred to such works in his notes (I am compiling the books within them to try and expand my library; far from being a reasonably good cover, it turns out to be peculiarly skewed. How I wish I was rich, or that the university was).
> 
> An appeal to those participating in this thread: those who wish to troll and slay trolls, could you, very kindly, keep your posts in the colour teal? This will help us to skip those and get to others of our interest.
> 
> Why were Baidyas zamindars only in east Bengal, rarely, or never, in the west?



Good question, I am afraid I do not have much information on that subject.

I am going to have to take leave for now. I will get back to the thread later. Thanks for your interest and taking the time.

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## asad71

Joe Shearer said:


> As it happens, we have gone over this ground before, perhaps in posts that may not have come to your attention. Please allow me to rehearse those arguments once more.
> 
> First, it is a fallacy referring to the Suri rulers as 'ours'. Please look at the time lines, and the movements of Sher Shah Suri. He was born outside Bengal, lived outside Bengal, and raided Bengal exactly once, to confront Mahmud Shah. When he toppled Mahmud Shah finally, in 1538, he never even went to Bengal, but sent his generals instead.
> 
> How can anyone claim this Afghan from Bihar as Bengali?
> 
> At (a), we encounter our old friend, the Migration Theory. This has been sufficiently discredited by Eaton; please read him again.
> 
> At (b), we encounter the Religion of Patronage Theory. You will appreciate that we either need to accept an argument or rebuff it with facts and deductions from those facts. It does not help merely to re-state it.
> 
> Point (c) puzzles me. Where do you locate these Afghan-Persians? The whole argument rotates around the circumstances that the initial locations of the Afghans were in the north and the west (of Bengal), and that the east remained impervious to Muslim presence until very late. Until the Mughals shifted their capital to Dhaka, there was no majority Muslim presence in east Bengal.
> 
> With your permission, I shall return to your post later.



1.Thank you. My concept of our habitat/homeland is the territory lying east of the Rajmahal Hills. This is the sovereign kingdom we had lost at Palassy. In ancient history Pataliputra (Patna) was our political capital and cultural center. The delta was largely unpopulated and covered with dense forest and wild animals. Gautama was our prince. Kalidas was ours. So was Chanokya. Aryabhata was a son of this soil.The Guptas, Nandas, Mauryas, Haryankas were dynasties that based in this land.Sher Shah Suri had made Sasaram our capital from where he had practically annexed the whole of Northern Hindustan.
*INDIC*
2.Urdu has been ousted from BD - almost physically.However, it has been installed as a state language in P/bangla.


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## Joe Shearer

@asad71

You wield a brush that is broad to the point of heroism. Why you should assume that this territory is 'yours' is beyond me, but I readily concede the point, and have no hesitation in agreeing that you are right. I am glad to have received your explanation, and shall treasure this moment all my life - the rest of it.

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## Dillinger

Joe Shearer said:


> @asad71
> 
> You wield a brush that is broad to the point of heroism. Why you should assume that this territory is 'yours' is beyond me, but I readily concede the point, and have no hesitation in agreeing that you are right. I am glad to have received your explanation, and shall treasure this moment all my life - the rest of it.



As we would say, LOLWA! 

The nerve, to claim a fellow Bihari, born and died in Old Magadh as his kin by any association. Well we've found one thing where everyone from the Kurmis to the Yadavs to the Ranvir Sena morons will unite upon, to stump his (asad) head over.

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## Trev

The organisation in my avatar is responsible for this.


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## scorpionx

A hopeless thread has turned into an excellent academic thread. Bookmarked.

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## INDIC

asad71 said:


> 1.Thank you. My concept of our habitat/homeland is the territory lying east of the Rajmahal Hills. This is the sovereign kingdom we had lost at Palassy. In ancient history Pataliputra (Patna) was our political capital and cultural center. The delta was largely unpopulated and covered with dense forest and wild animals. Gautama was our prince. Kalidas was ours. So was Chanokya. Aryabhata was a son of this soil.The Guptas, Nandas, Mauryas, Haryankas were dynasties that based in this land.Sher Shah Suri had made Sasaram our capital from where he had practically annexed the whole of Northern Hindustan.
> *INDIC*
> 2.Urdu has been ousted from BD - almost physically.However, it has been installed as a state language in P/bangla.



You missed to add Napoleon Bonaparte also as an ancestral Bangladeshi.

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## Joe Shearer

scorpionx said:


> A hopeless thread has turned into an excellent academic thread. Bookmarked.



Thanks, in large part, to @kalu_miah and his rude friend. These two have a range of reading and knowledge that is very good to read. 

Problem: how to get the jingos (of both sides) to bug out and stay home?


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## Trev

asad71 said:


> 1.Thank you. My concept of our habitat/homeland is the territory lying east of the Rajmahal Hills. This is the sovereign kingdom we had lost at Palassy. In ancient history Pataliputra (Patna) was our political capital and cultural center. The delta was largely unpopulated and covered with dense forest and wild animals. Gautama was our prince. Kalidas was ours. So was Chanokya. Aryabhata was a son of this soil.The Guptas, Nandas, Mauryas, Haryankas were dynasties that based in this land.Sher Shah Suri had made Sasaram our capital from where he had practically annexed the whole of Northern Hindustan.
> *INDIC*
> 2.Urdu has been ousted from BD - almost physically.However, it has been installed as a state language in P/bangla.


Bangladeshis have no claim to the Maurayas, Nandas, Guptas, Haryankas, Chanakaya, or Sher Shah Suri.


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## Joe Shearer

INDIC said:


> You missed to add Napoleon Bonaparte also as an ancestral Bangladeshi.


Very poor show. You missed Darius the Achaemenid.


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## INDIC

scorpionx said:


> A hopeless thread has turned into an excellent academic thread. Bookmarked.



This thread has turn into Raja Bhoj vs Gangu Teli kind of debate.


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## Joe Shearer

Trev said:


> Bangladeshis have no claim to the Maurayas, Nandas, Guptas or Sher Shah Suri.



Huh? Sez who? the organisation in your avatar? Bug out, idiot; this is for high brows and high brow idiots, and we have enough of both types.


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## Trev

Joe Shearer said:


> Huh? Sez who? the organisation in your avatar? Bug out, idiot; this is for high brows and high brow idiots, and we have enough of both types.


Before resorting to personal attacks, please tell me what the individuals or Empires I mentioned have in common with the people who inhabit Bangladesh?


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## Joe Shearer

INDIC said:


> This thread has turn into Raja Bhoj vs Gangu Teli kind of debate.



I don't think you are being fair. At least two of the Bangladeshis are heavyweights. They really know their stuff.


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## scorpionx

Joe Shearer said:


> Thanks, in large part, to @kalu_miah and his rude friend. These two have a range of reading and knowledge that is very good to read.
> 
> Problem: how to get the jingos (of both sides) to bug out and stay home?



My heartiest gratitude to @kalu_miah for introducing me to such a fascinating book by Eaton. I have gone through few pages and it's my misfortune that being a Bengali myself I have missed this excellent piece of research work. My bad.



INDIC said:


> This thread has turn into Raja Bhoj vs Gangu Teli kind of debate.



No, Indic. Kalu has produced some brilliant arguments.

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## Joe Shearer

Trev said:


> Before resorting to personal attacks, please tell me what the individuals or Empires I mentioned have in common with the people who inhabit Bangladesh?



Oh, that. 

Nothing. Nothing at all. Now, if you're going to get anal about facts..............


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## Trev

Joe Shearer said:


> Oh, that.
> 
> Nothing. Nothing at all. Now, if you're going to get anal about facts..............


At least make your reply relevant to the context.


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## INDIC

Trev said:


> Before resorting to personal attacks, please tell me what the individuals or Empires I mentioned have in common with the people who inhabit Bangladesh?



That was a sarcasm, I believe.

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## Joe Shearer

Trev said:


> At least make your reply relevant to the context.



That makes it serious.

Now, can one bear to be serious across all the interventions on this thread? Or should one be selectively so?


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## INDIC

scorpionx said:


> No, Indic. Kalu has produced some brilliant arguments.



Lallu miah mainly posts garbage, your comment seems like a miracle.


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## Trev

Joe Shearer said:


> That makes it serious.
> 
> Now, can one bear to be serious across all the interventions on this thread? Or should one be selectively so?


I'm confused, pardon my lack of ability to comprehend sarcasm.

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## Joe Shearer

INDIC said:


> Lallu miah mainly posts garbage, your comment seems like a miracle.



Please believe me, his intervention was learned and weighty, So, too, the other very rude gentleman. I have gained immensely from this thread. They might both of them have been clowning around deliberately on other threads. On this one, they are the heavyweights.

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## Capt.Popeye

Wow; this thread has certainly gained in academic weight.
But coming back to the crux of the matter---------------- has that petition to change the script from _Devnagari_ taken off? I had signed for it, with great expectations.
Or do I have to now wait for another petition to change the script to _Braille_ ?????
That may well be more appropriate.........

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## Dillinger

Capt.Popeye said:


> Wow; this thread has certainly gained in academic weight.
> But coming back to the crux of the matter---------------- has that petition to change the script from _Devnagari_ taken off? I had signed for it, with great expectations.
> Or do I have to now wait for another petition to change the script to _Braille_ ?????
> That may well be more appropriate.........



Aye, there be truth in what you say.


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## khair_ctg

paritosh said:


> India (pre-independence) was the largest melting-pot of cultures in the world (invasions, settlements,etc)
> Your Bengalis look exactly like our Bengalis, I am sure there are some muslims of mid-estern descent, but majority is racially similar.
> 
> All the south-asian countries have very racially diverse people on the whole. In India there are people darker than the darkest people in the world and fairer than the fairest. Not that it matters.
> 
> Same goes for languages, Bengali is older than urdu and has no relation with Farsi.


you are very ignorant. Bengali used by Muslims includes a lot of Farsi, even after adopting so much of the Calcutta Tagore traditions. and Farsi was practised by Muslims in the region for a long time as more of a formal language in general, besides as a native language by some


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## Joe Shearer

Significant.



> Indeed, the idea of Islam as a closed system with definite and rigid boundaries is itself largely a product of nineteenth- and twentieth-century reform movements, whereas for rural Bengalis of the premodern period, the line separating “non-Islam” from “Islam” appears rather to have been porous, tenuous, and shifting. Indeed, such boundaries seem hardly to have been present at all. Popular literature dating from the seventeenth century, such as the Mymensingh ballads cited above, evolved amongst communities of people who were remarkably open to accepting any sort of agency, human or superhuman, that might assist them in coping with life’s everyday problems.


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## khair_ctg

Joe Shearer said:


> Every one of the copious citations made contradict the possibility of this Farsi-Urdu-Arabic dialect of Bengali. All we have on the other side of the balance is your 'arguably'. Not a shred of evidence; only the attempted re-creation of a non-existent past by Muslim searches for identity in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.


Farsi-Urdu-Arabic are still separate living languages of modern times. and we know what they constitute and what they are. and when we look at how a combination of them is used by Muslims of Bengal, or even by some non-Muslims of places of Bengal where there was high Muslim influence, IN their Bengali dialect, we are already looking at that composite you mentioned - and this is long after the Sanskritized Bengali came into practise as the only official Bengali language. besides that, Farsi-Urdu-Arabic as separate languages have had extensive practise right until the early part of East Pakistan era. and i don't need to cite references to merely comment on this ordinary fact from the lives of ordinary Bangladeshi people. still if you wanted to know more consult these if your time allows; the original references are stated there:

Musalmani Bangla and its transformation

Musalmani Bangla and its transformation | Page 10


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## Joe Shearer

khair_ctg said:


> you are very ignorant. Bengali used by Muslims includes a lot of Farsi, even after adopting so much of the Calcutta Tagore traditions. and Farsi was practised by Muslims in the region for a long time as more of a formal language in general, besides as a native language by some



Bengali used by which Muslims?

The ashraf of the north-west and west, present from the 13th century ?
The converts of the north-west and west, few in numbers and overcome by insecurity in the middle of a Hindu majority, dating from the 13th century?
The ashraf of the imperial capital and of frontier towns and mint locations, dating from the 16th century?
The huge number of farmers and villagers riding the eastward expansion of the rice belt, dating from the 16th through the 18th century?


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## DRaisinHerald

This thread is still running! That's some great obsession with words that come of the mouth 
Those who want to speak Urdu, buy a qaida and start learning it. Simple?

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## khair_ctg

Joe Shearer said:


> Bengali used by which Muslims?
> 
> The ashraf of the north-west and west, present from the 13th century ?
> The converts of the north-west and west, few in numbers and overcome by insecurity in the middle of a Hindu majority, dating from the 13th century?
> The ashraf of the imperial capital and of frontier towns and mint locations, dating from the 16th century?
> The huge number of farmers and villagers riding the eastward expansion of the rice belt, dating from the 16th through the 18th century?


i would say that is a good point. i am familiar with multiple dialects but having had better orientation on the fourth. what almost all these dialects still have in common is each has a greater extent of Arabic and Islamicate influence compared to the Calcutta/formal Bengali


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## Joe Shearer

khair_ctg said:


> Farsi-Urdu-Arabic are still separate living languages of modern times. and we know what they constitute and what they are. and when we look at how a combination of them is used by Muslims of Bengal, or even by some non-Muslims of places of Bengal where there was high Muslim influence, IN their Bengali dialect, we are already looking at that composite you mentioned - and this is long after the Sanskritized Bengali came into practise as the only official Bengali language. besides that, *Farsi-Urdu-Arabic as separate languages have had extensive practise right until the early part of East Pakistan era.* and i don't need to cite references to merely comment on this ordinary fact from the lives of ordinary Bangladeshi people. still if you wanted to know more consult these if your time allows; the original references are stated there:
> 
> Musalmani Bangla and its transformation
> 
> Musalmani Bangla and its transformation | Page 10



But that is precisely the point. Musulmani Bangla cannot have been older than a few decades, because the attempt at creating it was an 18th century fit of the sulks. It was by no means a composite language built up during years of acculturation under the Turks, then under the native Bengali Sultanate of Bengal, then under the Afghan warlords, nor lastly under the Mughals.

It is never being denied that such a composite language *exists today*.




khair_ctg said:


> i would say that is a good point. i am familiar with multiple dialects but having had better orientation on the fourth. what almost all these dialects still have in common is each has a greater extent of Arabic and Islamicate influence compared to the Calcutta/formal Bengali



Sure. 

There is no doubt that such a composite language exists, and that you are familiar with it, as are millions of Bangladeshis.


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## khair_ctg

DRaisinHerald said:


> This thread is still running! That's some great obsession with words that come of the mouth
> Those who want to speak Urdu, buy a qaida and start learning it. Simple?


Yes simple and definitely a beneficial thing. i like Noori by the way

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## M.M.Ali

asad71 said:


> 1.As far as we know Bansam was a CIA project of the '60s. Now it is believed the Chinese support this. Late Minister for life, Mahmud Ali of Pakistan used to bean an enthusiastic supporter of this concept.Ali was from Assam and was a Secretary of Jinnah.FYI, the coup leaders of Aug 1975 when Mujib was killed, had declared their eventual goal to be attainment of Bansam.
> 
> 2. Bansam was not my idea. I am quite content with Bangladesh. When eventually the Muslim majority peoples of this sub-region decide to unite, they will find a name to describe their confederation/federation/union.



Just joined this forum to let you guys know that this is absolutely false. Mahmud Ali was very strongly against any attempt to tamper with the script and also opposed the introduction of Arabic which was being pushed by the Jamaatis. He loved Bangla and advocated the demand for Bangla as a national language along with Urdu.

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## asad71

M.M.Ali said:


> Just joined this forum to let you guys know that this is absolutely false. Mahmud Ali was very strongly against any attempt to tamper with the script and also opposed the introduction of Arabic which was being pushed by the Jamaatis. He loved Bangla and advocated the demand for Bangla as a national language along with Urdu.


Thank you. I have known Mahmud Ali Saab myself. Where have I said what you have claimed? I have just said that the concept of Bansam was supported by him. Nothing about him commenting on the script.

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## M.M.Ali

asad71 said:


> Thank you. I have known Mahmud Ali Saab myself. Where have I said what you have claimed? I have just said that the concept of Bansam was supported by him. Nothing about him commenting on the script.



True. My mistake.

I should mention that I'm Mahmud Ali's grandson. Nice to speak to you. Did you know him from Sylhet?


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## Joe Shearer

Deathly silence.


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## The Snow Queen

M.M.Ali said:


> True. My mistake.
> I should mention that I'm Mahmud Ali's grandson. Nice to speak to you. Did you know him from Sylhet?



Who is Mahmud Ali?  

But Urdu and all that stuff is not coming back and is in the past. Now we have to move forward and make our Bangla more Islamidised.


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## scholseys

The Snow Queen said:


> Who is Mahmud Ali?
> 
> But Urdu and all that stuff is not coming back and is in the past. Now we have to move forward and make our Bangla more Islamidised.


you should start by writing what you wrote in Arabic...someone needs to start. Who better than the moron who proposed this idea?


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## Joe Shearer

ROTFLSHTISTC


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## Saiful Islam

The Snow Queen said:


> Who is Mahmud Ali?
> 
> But Urdu and all that stuff is not coming back and is in the past. Now we have to move forward and make our Bangla more Islamidised.




Let's not be spineless here, people here already think we suffer from an inferiority complex, which we do not...The common Bangladeshi man does not care about his lineage, unless you come across one of those Sufi's who care about their 'silsila' and tariqah lol. What I'm peeved about is the fact some people here are denying Musulmani Bangla, Jalalabadi Nagri or Puthir Gan however you say it, the fact is it has been here for centuries and quite evident in most Bangladeshi families, you just have to converse with them to know the difference between Musulmani Bangla and the Bengalis speak over the border, the word "Malaun" itself is a word Bengali Muslims used towards Hindus.

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## Shere Of Purnea

Saiful Islam said:


> Let's not be spineless here, people here already think we suffer from an inferiority complex, which we do not...The common Bangladeshi man does not care about his lineage, unless you come across one of those Sufi's who care about their 'silsila' and tariqah lol. What I'm peeved about is the fact some people here are denying Musulmani Bangla, Jalalabadi Nagri or Puthir Gan however you say it, the fact is it has been here for centuries and quite evident in most Bangladeshi families, you just have to converse with them to know the difference between Musulmani Bangla and the Bengalis speak over the border, the word "Malaun" itself is a word Bengali Muslims used towards Hindus.


You are a spineless lungi black people who have never even had your own empire or ruled your own land.


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## The Snow Queen

aazidane said:


> you should start by writing what you wrote in Arabic...someone needs to start. Who better than the moron who proposed this idea?



!آچا تهک اچ



Saiful Islam said:


> Let's not be spineless here, people here already think we suffer from an inferiority complex, which we do not...The common Bangladeshi man does not care about his lineage, unless you come across one of those Sufi's who care about their 'silsila' and tariqah lol. What I'm peeved about is the fact some people here are denying Musulmani Bangla, Jalalabadi Nagri or Puthir Gan however you say it, the fact is it has been here for centuries and quite evident in most Bangladeshi families, you just have to converse with them to know the difference between Musulmani Bangla and the Bengalis speak over the border, the word "Malaun" itself is a word Bengali Muslims used towards Hindus.



!!هؤ شؤتی

(It's in Persian by the way.)


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## Sugarcane

Joe Shearer said:


> ROTFLSHTISTC



Jelly young man your ID is becoming darker day by day,

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## jaunty

The motion is passed with a majority vote (60%).


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## scholseys

The Snow Queen said:


> !آچا تهک اچ
> 
> 
> 
> !!هؤ شؤتی
> 
> (It's in Persian by the way.)


speak english, this is an international forum...arab wannabe


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## kalu_miah

عمار نم میا کالو


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## Varunastra

I DON'T BELIEVE MY EYES..........where has the bengali nationalism and pride gone??!!!you guys are trying to change the script of the language your mother taught you,for Allah's sake its your mother language people respect it! here i see you people have started sowing seeds of her destruction??!......why are u guys so bent on becoming arabs


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## Pakistani shaheens

UDAYCAMPUS said:


> I DON'T BELIEVE MY EYES..........where has the bengali nationalism and pride gone??!!!you guys are trying to change the script of the language your mother taught you,for Allah's sake its your mother language people respect it! here i see you people have started sowing seeds of her destruction??!......why are u guys so bent on becoming arabs


For all muslims (including me) religion comes first

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## The Snow Queen

Some few differences between West Bengal and East Bengal Bangla. These are basically few words which may have been due to the influence of Islam and also our rulers and administrators in this part of greater India were from Afghan-Iran-Arab axis some hundreds of years ago. Bangladeshi Bangla has a hint of Urdu in it... Dhakiya Bangla has heavy Urdu influence and a Kolkatta Bengali may not understand the words. Then I must say that it's a bit difficult for us the BD Bangla speakers to understand a few of the words used by "Dhakiya" people who mix Urdu words with Bangla words heavily, but understandable.
1. Water: Pani = Jal
2. Mister: Janab = Mohashay
3. Hello: Salaam = Namasker
4. Father: Abba = Baba
5. Mother: Amma = Maa
6. Elder Sister: Apa = Didi
7. Brother: Bhai = Dada
8. Invitation: Dawat = Nimantran
9. Breakfast: Nasta = Jal Khabar
10. Paternal Grandfather: Dada = Thakur Dada
11. Maternal Grandfather: Nana = Dadu
10. Paternal Grandmother: Dadi = Thakur Maa
11. Maternal Grandmother: Nani = Didi Maa
12. Maternal Auntie: Khala = Mashi Maa
13. Maternal Uncle: Mama = Mama
14. Maternal Auntie's Spouse: Khalu = Mesho Moshai
15. Maternal Uncle's Spouse: Mami = Mami
12. Paternal uncle's spouse: Chachi = Kaki Maa
13. Paternal Uncle (younger than father): Chacha = Kaka 
14. Paternal Uncle (older than father): Jetha = Jetha
15. Paternal Auntie's Spouse: Fuppa = Pisha Moshai
16. Bath/shower: Gosul = Snan
17. Meat: Gosto = Mangsho
18. Baptize: Akika = Anno Prashan

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## Pakistanisage

Good idea Brothers. Such a change in orientation will bring you closer to the Islamic World.

Every Muslim should be able to read and understand Arabic.

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## khair_ctg

UDAYCAMPUS said:


> I DON'T BELIEVE MY EYES..........where has the bengali nationalism and pride gone??!!!you guys are trying to change the script of the language your mother taught you,for Allah's sake its your mother language people respect it! here i see you people have started sowing seeds of her destruction??!......why are u guys so bent on becoming arabs


if Bengali nationalism is concerned with pride in the heritage of Bengal, then the languages that have enriched and shaped this region and its people must be celebrated. in that case, you cannot simply exclude only certain languages of the region just because they were brought there by Muslims. if you want to exclude languages like Urdu and Farsi and Arabic and scripts from these languages, then call your nationalism Hindu-Bangaliyana Nationalism.


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## The Snow Queen

Pakistani shaheens said:


> For all muslims (including me) religion comes first



True!!


Pakistanisage said:


> Good idea Brothers. Such a change in orientation will bring you closer to the Islamic World.
> Every Muslim should be able to read and understand Arabic.



Thank you! You are right.

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## Saiful Islam

Pakistanisage said:


> Good idea Brothers. Such a change in orientation will bring you closer to the Islamic World.
> 
> Every Muslim should be able to read and understand Arabic.



I understand changing the script may help us in learning the Arabic script more, but how on earth does Urdu help us learn Arabic more? The language sounds similar, if not identical to Hindi, only difference is the script. Urdu is not a pathway to Arabic, similarly, Pashto or Kurdish is not a pathway to Arabic even though they use the Nastaliq script. Majority of Bangladesh can read Arabic, especially Quranic Arabic, in fact we are usually one of the countries to win or come second in the International Qirat/Quran competition in UAE/Dubai. 

I love the Arabic script, but the thing that holds me back is the timing, it's too late to change the script or even the audacity to propose a change. Musulmani Bangla is still here and enriched with Arbi and Perso words, what makes me worry is that the Islamic heritage of Bangladesh is being thrown in the ashes by current regime, especially Bengal being one of the first regions in South/South East Asia for the advent of Islam to occur.

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## khair_ctg

aazidane said:


> speak english, this is an international forum...arab wannabe


more correctly you should call Muslim wannabe


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## Sugarcane

The Snow Queen said:


> Thank you! You are right.



Still here --- You lasted longer than expected against Indians

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## The Snow Queen

LoveIcon said:


> Still here --- You lasted longer than expected against Indians



What do you mean..?



Saiful Islam said:


> I understand changing the script may help us in learning the Arabic script more, but how on earth does Urdu help us learn Arabic more? The language sounds similar, if not identical to Hindi, only difference is the script. Urdu is not a pathway to Arabic, similarly, Pashto or Kurdish is not a pathway to Arabic even though they use the Nastaliq script. Majority of Bangladesh can read Arabic, especially Quranic Arabic, in fact we are usually one of the countries to win or come second in the International Qirat/Quran competition in UAE/Dubai.





Saiful Islam said:


> I love the Arabic script, but the thing that holds me back is the timing, it's too late to change the script or even the audacity to propose a change. Musulmani Bangla is still here and enriched with Arbi and Perso words, what makes me worry is that the Islamic heritage of Bangladesh is being thrown in the ashes by current regime, especially Bengal being one of the first regions in South/South East Asia for the advent of Islam to occur.




Oh yeah... You are right.


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## Pakistanisage

Saiful Islam said:


> I understand changing the script may help us in learning the Arabic script more,* but how on earth does Urdu help us learn Arabic more*? The language sounds similar, if not identical to Hindi, only difference is the script. Urdu is not a pathway to Arabic, similarly, Pashto or Kurdish is not a pathway to Arabic even though they use the Nastaliq script. Majority of Bangladesh can read Arabic, especially Quranic Arabic, in fact we are usually one of the countries to win or come second in the International Qirat/Quran competition in UAE/Dubai.
> 
> I love the Arabic script, but the thing that holds me back is the timing, it's too late to change the script or even the audacity to propose a change. Musulmani Bangla is still here and enriched with Arbi and Perso words, what makes me worry is that the Islamic heritage of Bangladesh is being thrown in the ashes by current regime, especially Bengal being one of the first regions in South/South East Asia for the advent of Islam to occur.





You lost me there, Bro....

I did not say anything about Urdu in my comment so where is Urdu coming from.

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## khair_ctg

The Snow Queen said:


> But Urdu and all that stuff is not coming back and is in the past. Now we have to move forward and make our Bangla more Islamidised.


i would suggest you to update your knowledge about the country you are a national of. it shouldn't be okay for anyone to say that a language used by a significant community in Bangladesh is "not coming back". it might not have official patronage from BD government. but it is a language of the land for native speakers who are Mohajirs and every Bengali Muslim family who were educated had use of this language until the political issues started post-1947. the "pure" Dhakai people don't use the Banglafied Urdu but use thorough Urdu, but the unique Urdu accent is dying...

everyone should notice that whenever some people talk about Bengali nationalism, they also oppose all the Muslim culture that exist or existed in Bengal. so it supports the fact that during colonial period Bengali Hindus got sole official authority to define what is "Bengali". by excluding all Muslim elements from the definition of "Bengali", "Bengali" became another term for Hindu.

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## The Snow Queen

Pakistanisage said:


> You lost me there....
> I did not say anything about Urdu in my comment so where is Urdu coming from.



I know right? I just agreed with him about the "too late part" and that we can read Arabic but we need to Islamise our culture more. 

@Saiful Islam Nothing is too late! Better late than never! It's never too late. NEVER GIVE UP! 



khair_ctg said:


> i would suggest you to update your knowledge about the country you are a national of. it shouldn't be okay for anyone to say that a language used by a significant community in Bangladesh is "not coming back". it might not have official patronage from BD government. but it is a language of the land for native speakers who are Mohajirs and every Bengali Muslim family who were educated had use of this language until the political issues started post-1947.
> everyone should notice that whenever some people talk about Bengali nationalism, they also oppose all the Muslim culture that exist or existed in Bengal. so it supports the fact that during colonial period Bengali Hindus got sole official authority to define what is "Bengali". by excluding all Muslim elements from the definition of "Bengali", "Bengali" became another term for Hindu.



I know! But I think majority people won't like to speak Urdu. And my Grandfathers and Grandmothers knew how to speak Urdu and also Arabic and Farsi! Especially my two Grandfathers! But my Mom or Dad, not sure. You are right that they tried removing Muslim elements in Bangla! And that's why Bangla just seems more Hindu and it does not go well with us Muslims.


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## khair_ctg

The Snow Queen said:


> I know right? I just agreed with him about the "too late part" and that we can read Arabic but we need to Islamise our culture more.
> 
> 
> 
> I know! But I think majority people won't like to speak Urdu. And my Grandfathers and Grandmothers knew how to speak Urdu and also Arabic and Farsi! Especially my two Grandfathers! But my Mom or Dad, not sure. You are right that they tried removing Muslim elements in Bangla! And that's why Bangla just seems more Hindu and it does not go well with us Muslims.


it is up to individuals to decide what they want to do. people should at least be aware of the importance of Urdu in the land we call Bangladesh. all of those pre-1947 leaders from Bengal who can be likened to "founding fathers" associated themselves with Urdu at least as much as Bengali. and a language like Urdu determined the very Muslim community of South Asia that culminated into two countries we call Bangladesh and Pakistan today, and a big minority population of India. Urdu still is the lingua franca of south asian Muslims - Urdu-Hindi together are probably a lingua franca of almost all people from what is considered "indo-aryan" background

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## Hashshāshīn

Azizam said:


> You should really get away with this inferiority complex and start working on developing country.


Coming from a Sri Lankan, the ugliest people on Earth


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## Joe Shearer

LoveIcon said:


> Jelly young man your ID is becoming darker day by day,



"Jelly young man"?

Why, @LoveIcon, why? and why is my ID becoming darker day by day? Please explain. When someone like you has such an opinion, I worry.


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## Armstrong

Joe Shearer said:


> "Jelly young man"?
> 
> Why, @LoveIcon, why? and why is my ID becoming darker day by day? Please explain. When someone like you has such an opinion, I worry.



Vote for the change of script otherwise Mrs.Shearer is going to be told everything about Mr.Shearer's crush on a certain Ms.Balan ! 

How are you doing janaab ?


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## Joe Shearer

Armstrong said:


> Vote for the change of script otherwise Mrs.Shearer is going to be told everything about Mr.Shearer's crush on a certain Ms.Balan !
> 
> How are you doing janaab ?



That's blackmail!

Where are the mods when we really need them??

I was fine till I read this. Where did those damn' nitroglycerin pills go?

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## Saiful Islam

Sorry bhai, I interpreted what you said wrong.

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## scholseys

khair_ctg said:


> it is up to individuals to decide what they want to do. people should at least be aware of the importance of Urdu in the land we call Bangladesh. all of those pre-1947 leaders from Bengal who can be likened to "founding fathers" associated themselves with Urdu at least as much as Bengali. and a language like Urdu determined the very Muslim community of South Asia that culminated into two countries we call Bangladesh and Pakistan today, and a big minority population of India. Urdu still is the lingua franca of south asian Muslims - Urdu-Hindi together are probably a lingua franca of almost all people from what is considered "indo-aryan" background


this chick has major identity insecurities....

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## khair_ctg

aazidane said:


> this chick has major identity insecurities....


what has insecurities? do you actually have anything to add to the discussion?


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## scholseys

khair_ctg said:


> what has insecurities? do you actually have anything to add to the discussion?


Like you are adding to this joke of a thread?......whats next? you should open a thread to impose a ban on lungi since since its not islamic enough....


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## kalu_miah

@Joe Shearer we had an interesting discussion going. Unfortunately I got a bit tied up. I will get back to it as soon as time permits.


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## Joe Shearer

kalu_miah said:


> @Joe Shearer we had an interesting discussion going. Unfortunately I got a bit tied up. I will get back to it as soon as time permits.



It was your discussion, your game-changing input; I only read the cited book greedily and reacted to a fine piece of scholarship by Eaton. 

Get back soon, please.


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## Varunastra

Pakistani shaheens said:


> For all muslims (including me) religion comes first



For Indian muslims nation come first 



khair_ctg said:


> if Bengali nationalism is concerned with pride in the heritage of Bengal, then the languages that have enriched and shaped this region and its people must be celebrated. in that case, you cannot simply exclude only certain languages of the region just because they were brought there by Muslims. if you want to exclude languages like Urdu and Farsi and Arabic and scripts from these languages, then call your nationalism Hindu-Bangaliyana Nationalism.



urdu is not ur mother tongue u dimwit ofcourse i can exclude them...if u guys had all moved to farsi and arabic by now i would have had no say in this matter but as u are not then it is an issue ....AND BY SAYING THAT YOU CANNOT EXCLUDE URDU for Allahs sake urdu of all languages,the language against u guys fought to save bengali in 1971 shows how much your mindset and nationalism has degraded


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## Joe Shearer

Dimwit? I don't think you've read @khair_ctg's repertory of messages. It isn't easy to agree with him, but he usually has a point to make, which is not entirely devoid of merit. Definitely not dimwitted, but that is my personal opinion. And definitely calling him a dimwit, whether or not he is one, is a bit much.


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## Varunastra

maybe i said a bit too much...no offence if i have hurt any one ...my apologies


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## Joe Shearer

I was just pointing to his intelligent posts, nothing more. I am not his vakalatnama-holder, so don't worry. These are just a personal commentary, not to be taken at all seriously. Honestly, I think some of them have a very, very good grip on these socio-cultural language issues. 

Anyway, as long as he doesn't complain, you shouldn't worry.


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## kalu_miah

Bengali language phrases | History Of Bangla Language | Bengali literature history | Academic Room

*Bangla Language | Bengali Literary History*






*by Thibaut d'Hubert, The University of Chicago*

Bengali literature developed in the northeastern part of the Indian subcontinent in about the eighth/fourteenth century, when Bengali, also called Bangla, became a literary language. After 739/1338 Bengal was an independent sultanate ruled by Turko-Afghan elites based in the urban centres. Starting from 983/1575 the region was then progressively integrated into the Mughal empire and was entirely conquered in 1010/1610. During the late Mughal period (12th/18thcentury) the province became virtually autonomous. Bengal came under British control during the second half of the 12th/18th century. After the independence of 1947, the region was divided on a religious basis between the Indian state of West Bengal and East Pakistan. The war of 1971 led to the independence of East Pakistan that became the People's Republic of Bangladesh.

It is often claimed that Muslim patronage ushered Bengali poetry into being. There is little evidence of such courtly literature before the tenth/sixteenth century. Before the elaboration of an Islamic literature, the works of Hindu poets contained elements reflecting aspects of Islam in the regional culture, such as references to the sultan of the time or to characters inspired by stories from the early history of Islam. Ḥasan and Ḥusayn, the grandsons of the prophet Muḥammad, for example, are treated by the poets as Muslim rulers forced to celebrate the cult of Manasā, the goddess of the snakes, in early _maṅgalakāvya_s (c. ninth/fifteenth century), narrative poems that celebrate the spread of the worship of a deity. Arabic and Persian vocabulary, related mainly to religion and professional activities practised by Muslims in Bengal, is also found in texts from this period.

*1. The beginning of Bengali Muslim literature in eastern Bengal*
The first Bengali Muslim authors appear to have lived in the southeastern corner of Bengal, in the region of Chittagong. They were either Afghans culturally acclimated to Bengal, who used Bengali as a means of literary expression, or local Hindus recently converted to Islam. The sultanate (600–945/1204–1538) and the Afghan period (945–83/1538–75) saw the beginnings of a courtly culture that gradually integrated regional features, among which were the use of Bengali as a cultural language. But it was only in the Arakanese kingdom, which stretched along the coasts of southeastern present-day Bangladesh and the northwestern part of Myanmar, that regional Muslim elites of the cities and rural areas used Bengali for literary purposes. The language and prosody were the same as that of earlier and contemporary Hindu poets. Changes occurred mainly in the themes, which were now taken from Persian literature, and through the creation or reinterpretation of existing literary forms. Unlike the Urdū poets, Bengali authors never adopted Arabic-Persian prosody. There were occasional late (thirteenth/nineteenth-century) attempts to use the Arabic script to transcribe Bengali. Formally speaking, the only visible impact of an Islamicate literary culture on Bengali was the practice of arranging the pages of manuscripts or printed books in order to read them from right to left.

The first author to leave a substantial oeuvre whose date and geographical location can be firmly established is Sayyid Sulṭān, who lived at the end of the tenth/sixteenth century. He was a rural religious figure who produced many texts in Bengali, in a wide range of literary forms, from narrative poems called _pańchālī_ to short lyric poems _(pada)_. He is representative of the religious mind of the rural gentry of the late tenth/sixteenth century. During this period, Islam spread primarily among rural populations. Even in religious writings, the language was largely the same as that of Hindu poets. Sayyid Sulṭān's _Nabīvaṇsha_ (“The line of the Prophets,” c. 992–4/1584–6) and his treatise on spiritual practices entitled _Jñānapradīpa_ (“The lamp of knowledge”) contain many elements borrowed directly from Hindu mythology and yoga. These are usually reinterpreted in order to fit the framework of Islamic theology. Sulṭān's sources are Arabic and Persian texts, which he does not name precisely. His audience seems to have been the rural populations of Chittagong newly converted to Islam.

Sulṭān's works strongly influenced authors who lived in Chittagong during the eleventh/seventeenth and twelfth/eighteenth centuries. His disciple Muḥammad Khān is a major figure among those authors. His works were read in Chittagong and the neighbouring region of Comilla. He completed the narrative of his master with his _Maqtūl Ḥusayn_ (“Ḥusayn slaughtered,” c. 1056/1646), an epic and elegiac poem on the death of the Prophet's grandson at the battle of Karbalāʾ (Muḥarram 61/October 680). Muḥammad Khān was also the first Muslim author to compose an allegorical poem, the _Satya Kalivivādasaṇvāda_ (“The disputation between the Golden and the Iron Ages,” 1045/1635). We find few references in these texts to the political context in which they were composed.

Another important literary trend of the Muslim Bengali literature of this period is linked to the prolific man of letters ʿAlāwal (Ālāol, fl. 1061–82/1651–71). Unlike Sayyid Sulṭān, ʿAlāwal was an urban poet, who wrote for wealthy Muslim dignitaries of the Buddhist kings of Arakan. His texts are all transpositions from eastern literary Hindī, also called Avadhī (e.g., Muḥammad Jāyasī's _Padmāvat_, 952/1545), and Persian (e.g., Niẓāmī Ganjawī's _Haft paykar_, 593/1197) into Bengali. We can draw the outlines of his literary career from information available in his works. His poetry is refined and erudite. In addition to the ethical and religious concerns evidenced in his texts, he provides valuable insights into the courtly culture of his time. The most striking feature is the integration of Sanskrit, Hindī, Persian, and Bengali literary traditions in a single _adab_ or cultural ethos adapted to the needs of the cosmopolitan environment of Mrauk U, the capital of the Arakanese kingdom. Even after the conquest of Chittagong by the Mughals, in 1077/1666, ʿAlāwal's texts were widely distributed and read in the region. He remained the model of a court poet, and many authors composed _pańchālī_s inspired by Persian _mathnawī_s, using his highly Sanskritised style.

In the northeastern regions of Comilla and Sylhet, Bengali literature developed in a way similar to that in Chittagong, but there were few explicit interactions, in terms of the circulation of texts, among the three regions. Shaykh Chānd (ca 1059–1137/1650–1725) was a major author in Comilla, which was part of the Tripura kingdom ruled by the Hindu dynasty of the Māńikyas. He played a role comparable to Sayyid Sulṭān, by providing the rural readership with a voluminous_Rasulacarita_ (“Life of the prophets”) and Ṣūfī treatises such as the _Ṭālib-nāma_ (“The book of the seeker”). Judging from the many manuscripts of his texts collected in Comilla, Shaykh Chānd remained very popular until the beginning of the twentieth century.

In the region of Sylhet, a quasi-autonomous tradition is traceable from the twelfth/eighteenth century. A script found only there, the Sylhet _nāgarī_, was designed by Muslim copyists. The genres represented are the same as in Comilla and Chittagong, that is, lives of the prophets, treatises on spiritual practices and _fiqh_, and _pada_s.

*2. Muslim Bengali literature in West Bengal*
Even though Chittagong literature circulated in print in Calcutta during the second half of the nineteenth and the early twentieth centuries, another tradition prevailed among the Muslims of the western part of Bengal. In the mid-twelfth/eighteenth century, Shāh Gharīballāh (ca 1165–93/1772–80) composed texts on themes already existing in East Bengal, such as the battle of Karbalāʾ and the story of Laylī and Majnūn. He does not seem to have been familiar with the Chittagong versions of these stories, and his sources were Persian or Hindī texts. His idiom differs from that used in eastern Bengal. It contains Hindī and Persian words and expressions and was later referred to as Musulmani Bengali, _dobhāśī_ (“containing two languages”), or_mishrabhāśārīti_ (“style of the mixed language”). The direct successor of Shāh Gharīballāh, Sayyid Ḥamza (ca 1144–1222/1732–1808), shifted from the Sanskritised idiom to that of his predecessor, whose epic poem _Amīr Ḥamza_ he completed in 1201 of the Bengali calendar (c. 1209/1794). The _dobhāśī_ literature was very popular, and many texts were distributed from Baťťalā, in northern Calcutta, where cheap books were printed during the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Another successful kind of text that developed with the advent of printing was the literature on Satya Pīr, a mythical saint worshiped by Hindus and Muslims alike for his ability to bring wealth and comfort. Many manuscripts containing versions of the tales about this religious figure are also kept in the collections of West Bengal and Bangladesh.

*3. The formation of modern Bengali Muslim literature in colonial Bengal*
During the second half of the nineteenth century, some authors who wished to enter the literary circles of Calcutta adopted the new idiom and genres of the Hindu literati. At this time, Western forms such as the novel and the use of prose, and sonnet and blank verse in poetry, as well as the direct expression of social concerns changed profoundly the way literature was conceived. Premodern forms have continued in use up to the present, but a break did occur between the ancient and the new tradition. The late integration of Bengali Muslims into the British educational system limited the impact of Muslim authors on the intellectual life of Bengal. The religious themes inherited from the _dobhāśī_ literature were still the main sources of inspiration for many Muslim poets and novelists. Mīr Musharraf Ḥusayn (1848–1911) is the most important author of this period. He tried all the genres of his time and wrote an autobiography that is a landmark in Bengali literature. Muslim authors also wrote plays, such as Mīr Musharraf Ḥusayn's _Vasantakumārī nāťak_ (“The play of Vasantakumārī,” 1873), ʿAbd al-Karīm's _Jagatmohinī_ (“The world-enchanting,” 1875), and Qādir ʿAlī's _Mohinīpremapāsh_(“Mohinī's love-lace,” 1881). The plays were fashioned according to the rules of Sanskrit dramaturgy and imitated contemporary Hindu playwrights (e.g., Dīnabandhu's (1829–1874) _Nīl darpańa_, (“The indigo planting mirror,” 1860), and Ḥusain's _Jamidār darpańa_, (“The mirror of the landlord,” 1873)).

Bengali Muslims engaged in the publication of several periodicals in the late nineteenth and the twentieth century. Periodicals such as _Kohinūr_ (“The mountain of light,” named after a famous Indian diamond, which belonged to various rulers and is now part of British crown jewels), first published in 1898, allowed men of letters and intellectuals to share their points of view and to debate topics in literature, religion, politics, and the complex question of the identity of Bengali Muslims. The need of Muslims to acknowledge their role as members of Bengali society in order to enhance social unity and offset divisive British social policy became a central issue for the essayists. The editors were Muslims, but many contributors were Hindus. In the field of religion, the efforts of Muslim authors were directed mainly towards refuting anti-Muslim pamphlets written by Christian missionaries. In this connection, some Hindu and Brahmo (members of a religious reformist movement formed by the urban elites of Bengal during the first half of the 19th century) scholars produced valuable works on Islam, such as the first Bengali translation of the Quʾrān, in 1881, by Girishchandra Sen (1834–1910). The latter also wrote a life of the Prophet entitled _Mahāpuruś Muhammader jīvan-carit_ (“The life of the great man Muḥammad,” 1885). The many biographies of the Prophet written during the second half of the nineteenth century helped shape the identity of Bengali Muslims by providing iconic models of individual behaviour.

The opinions of Sunni reformist movements of various tendencies such as the Deobandī, the regional Farāʾiḍī or the Barelwī, had some influence on the ideology of the writers of essays and other nonfiction of this period, but novelists and poets seem to have maintained their autonomy, putting forward such issues as the social status of women, education, and child marriage.

During the decades preceding the independence of India and Pakistan, the poet and songwriter Qāḍī Nadhr al-Islām (Kazi Nazrul Islam, 1899–1976) became a major figure. He was inspired by Hindu devotional songs and by adaptations of the Persian poems of Ḥāfiẓ Shīrāzī (c. 715–92/1315–90). The energy generated by the uprising that is the theme of his famous poem _Vidrohī_ (“The rebel,” 1922) is a crucial aspect of his art and inspired many poets who came after him.

*4. Bengali literature in Pakistan and Bangladesh*
The formation of a new Bengali Muslim identity resulted from the partition of India and Pakistan in 1947. On the one hand, Bengali Muslims gained the opportunity to elaborate their own literary idiom, distinct from that of Hindus, but on the other, Urdū, not Bengali, was the official language of Pakistan. Other social and political issues crystallised around that of the recognition of the status of Bengali as a national language in Pakistan by the government. This led to the “movement for the language” _(bhāśā āndolan)_ and its violent repression in 1952, vividly depicted in Jahira Rayhāna's (Ẓahīr Rayḥān's) novel _Āreka phālguna_ (“Another month of Phālgun, ”1969, Phālgun being the twelfth month of the North Indian Hindu calendar, falling in February–March). Important novelists of this period are Abū al-Manṣūr Aḥmad (1898–1979), Abū Isḥāq (1926–2003), Akbar Ḥusayn (1917–81), Qāḍī Afsār al-Dīn (1921–75), Abū Rushd (b. 1919), Shawkat ʿUthmān (1917–98), and Sayyid Walīallāh (1922–1971), whose _Lālasālu_(“Tree without roots,” 1948) is an emblematic novel of this period. It tells the story of a religious man who settles in a village and relies for his living upon the villagers' beliefs in the power of the tomb of a local saint. Depictions of rural society and the criticism of superstitions are often encountered in the literature of the years that followed partition. The movement for the recognition of the Bengali language produced a new creative impulse that lasted until 1958, when martial law was imposed by Iskander Mirza (1899–1969) and Ayyub Khan (1907–74).

The latter's strict military regime of the 1960s prohibited novelists from freely depicting contemporary society. Many East Pakistani historical novels were aimed at condemning the ill-treatment endured by Bengalis. Authors evincing strong Marxist ideology, such as ʿAbd al-Ghaffār Chaudhurī (1934-), who wrote _Chandradvīpera upākhyāna_ (“The story of Chandradvīpa”) during the 1950s and published it as book in 1960, and the bold and prolific novelist Satyen Sen (1907–81), or Shawkat ʿUthmān (1919–98), the author of _Krītadāsera hāsi_(“The slave's laughter,” 1962), nourished the revolutionary imaginary on the path to independence. But when the moment of the fight for independence arrived in the late 1960s, it was through poetry that a real aesthetics of the uprising, already present in the work of Nadhr al-Islām, reached its fullest development. _Svādhīnatā tumi_ (“Freedom, you are…,” 1972) by Shams al-Raḥmān (Shamsur Rahman) (1929–2006) is the most acclaimed poem on independence. The celebration of the 21 February, the date of the general strike of 1952 for the recognition of Bengali as a national language, remains an occasion for poets to declaim their compositions inspired by the fight for independence.

The post-independence period produced many novels and anthologies of poems on the theme of the war of 1971. Novels such as Anvar Pāshā's (1928–71) _Rāiphela roṭi āorāta_(“Guns, bread, and women,” 1973), Shawkat ʿUthmān's_Jahannama haite bidāya_ (“A farewell to Hell,” 1971), Shawkat ʿAlī's (1936-) _Yātrā_ on the “black night” of 25 March 1971, Sayyid Shams al-Ḥaq's _Niśiddha lobana_ (“The forbidden salt,” 1981) are examples of this trend. Among the writers of the 1970s and 1980s, two women novelists are prominent, Selinā Ḥusayn (b. 1947) and Rijiyā Raḥmān (b. 1939). Among the works of the latter is _Vaṇ theke Bāṇlā_ (“From the Vaṃ-s to Bengal,” 1987), an historical novel dealing with the history of the Bengali people from ancient times to 1971.

Even though rural life has remained central to the setting of Bengali novels and poetry up to the present, the urban social environment increasingly influenced authors living in Dacca. The use of dialect in the dialogues of short stories and novels is characteristic of recent Bangladeshi literature. Humāyūn Aḥmad (b. 1948) and Imdād al-Ḥaq Milan (b. 1955) are two prolific and popular authors of the last decades who draw on contemporary events for their short stories and novels. Al-Maḥmūd (b. 1936) is recognised by critics for his poetry, short stories, and, since the 1990s, his novels.

*Bibliography*

Abedin Quader (ed.), _An anthology of modern literature from Bangladesh_, Dacca 1985

Ahmed Sharif, _Bāṅālī o baṅlā sāhitya_, 2 vol., repr. Dacca 2003–4

Amit Dey, _The image of the Prophet in Bengali Muslim piety, 1850–1947_, Calcutta 2005

Ānisujjāmāna, _Muslima mānasa o bāṇlā sāhitya_, repr. Dacca 2001

Asim Roy, _The Islamic syncretistic tradition in Bengal_, Princeton 1983

Mahbubula Alama, _Bāṇlādeshera sāhitya_, Dacca 2009

Priti Kumar Mitra, _The dissent of Nazrul Islam_, New Delhi 2007

Qazi Abdul Mannan, _The emergence and development of Dobhāsī literature in Bengal, up to 1855 A.D_., Dacca 1966

Rafiuddin Ahmed, _The Bengal Muslims, 1871–1906. A quest for identity_, New Delhi 1981

Rafiuddin Ahmed (ed.), _Understanding the Bengal Muslims. Interpretative essays_, New Delhi 2001

Richard M. Eaton, _The rise of Islam and the Bengal frontier, 1204–1760_, Berkeley 1993

Shamsur Rahman, _The best poems of Shamsur Rahman_, trans. Shankar Sen, Calcutta 2005

Sufia M. Uddin, _Constructing Bangladesh. Religion, ethnicity, and language in an Islamic nation_, Chapel Hill 2006

Syed Waliullah, _Tree without roots_, trans. Qaisar Saeed, Anna-Marie Thibaud, Jeffrey Gibian, and Malik Khayyam, London 1967

Tony K. Stewart (trans.), _Fabulous females and peerless pīrs. Tales of mad adventure in old Bengal_, Oxford and New York 2004.

*Bengali*

*by James M. Wilce, Northern Arizona University*

People often make particular linguistic variants straightforward indexes of identity. This lacks analytic validity but reveals the linguistic ideologies upon which the politics of nationalism often turn (Bauman and Briggs 2003). Following Stewart (2001), we should be cautious of modern notions that linguistic form (e.g., Bengali discourse full of Sanskrit- or Perso-Arabic-derived words) directly reflects an author's politico-religious stance or a Hindu or Muslim identity conceived as a pure essence.

Ask Bangladeshis what divides Muslim from Hindu speech and they will mention _pani_ (vs. _jɔl_) ‘water’. This favorite index actually derives from Sanskrit. Yet, the ‘Muslim’ valeur of _pani_ is a social fact. Such facts warrant attention to ideological representations of ‘Perso-Arabic’ lexemes in Bengali – and suggest that lists of loanwords require reanalysis in terms of ideologies.

*1. Semantic domains*
The semantic categories of Arabic loanwords in Bengali reveal the history of Bengali Islam. “The ordinary Bengali words for ‘paper’ _kagɔj_ (Arabic _kaġaḏ_) and ‘pen’ _kɔlɔm_ (Arabic _qalam_) [are] both… corrupted loanwords” (Eaton 1993: 293). Muslims spread literacy in Bengal, and associated terms reflect that fact.

Bengali Muslim kin terms are also mostly Arabic. Muslims usually call fathers _abba_; Hindus use _baba_. Some loanwords like _mullah_ or _imām_ designate Muslim social categories or reflect institutions of Mughal governance, e.g. the (now honorific) title _qāḍī_ (_kāzī_). Then there are labels designating high birth – _sayyid, šex, ašraf_ – which played a significant role in Bengal's social history (Ahmed 1981). Bengali Muslims use different honorifics from Hindus, e.g. _šaheb_(like ‘Mister’). Muslim names are also typically Arabic. The 19th-century Islamization of Bengal involved rural Muslims rejecting their ‘Hindu’ (Bengali) names (Ahmed 1981:106).

Other salient loanwords denote ritual acts – e.g. _ḥajj_. In late 20th century Dhaka, Bengali newspapers were peppered with such terms; their use peaks during Ramadan. Musa (1995:93) lists 28, including _axeri munajat_ ‘final prayer’, _id mobārak_ ‘happy Id’, _zakāt_ ‘alms’,_janāza_ ‘funeral prayer’, and _mīlād mahfil_ ‘gathering to celebrate [the Prophet's] birth’.

*2. Phonology and grammatical categories of loanwords*
Phonological nativization of loanwords has been the rule in the past. Arabic /a/ in unstressed syllables has followed Bengali rules of vowel harmony to become /o/ in syllables preceding a high vowel (/u/ or /i/). Arabic consonants were generally replaced with their closest Bengali counterparts. The spelling of Arabic-derived terms has recently undergone ‘reform’. The Islamic Preaching Mission, once the Toblig Jamat, is now the Tablig Jamayat; _mowlanas_ are now _mawlanas_, at least in writing (Musa 1995:93). Most Arabic loanwords are nouns, typically appearing in otherwise purely Bengali contexts and receiving Bengali affixation (_masjid-e_ ‘in the mosque’) rather than Arabic morphology such as the definite article. Phrases like _bissɔ-ijtemāʿ_ ‘world gathering’ or _ṣiyām-sadhɔna_ ‘fasting-asceticism’ that join Arabic loanwords with Sanskrit derivatives are common. The 17th-century rise in non-nominal Arabic elements borrowed into Bengali was reversed in the 18th century – probably reflecting the declining fortunes of Persian under British hegemony (Mannan 1966:73). Among the non-nominal borrowings is the Arabic _ẓāhir_, used by the early 18th-century poet Vidyapati (Mannan 1966:67) in a verb phrase _karilo ẓāhir_ ‘make manifest’. This illustrates the way Arabic loanwords can appear in Bengali verb phrases by virtue of the latter's capacity to form compound verbs using nouns or adjectives and the Bengali pro-verb _kar_ ‘do.’

*3. Counts and frequency of Arabic and Islamicate elements in Bengali*
There are no large corpus-based linguistic studies of Bengali, let alone of the frequency of Perso-Arabic terms in actual instances of contemporary Bengali discourse. Writing in pre-Partition Calcutta, S.K. Chatterji counted 2,500 Perso-Arabic terms in Bengali (Chatterji 1934:210; Ahmed 1981:121). Writing 30 years later in Islamic East Pakistan, Hilali (1967) listed 9,000 such loanwords. But the relation of such ‘counts’ to actual usage is unknown.

We find a range of loanword frequencies in a small corpus of carefully transcribed, naturally occurring Bengali speech of various registers. In ‘Latifa's’ 1992 lament (Wilce 1998) only 6 percent of total word tokens were Perso-Arabic loans. By contrast, in the Bengali ‘translation’ of an Arabic prayer offered at a 1991 wedding (Wilce 2002), about 33 percent of the total words are Arabic loans.

Arabic-laden prayers and other speech registers – and metadiscourses on the frequency of loanwords – reflect linguistic ideologies inseparable from postcoloniality and competing nationalisms (Irvine and Gal 2000). Such ideologies played a clear role in the history of Bengali.

*4. History and historiography*
Apparently, it was the Hindu poet Bharat Chandra in his poem _Mansingha Kāvya_ (1752) who coined the term _dobhaṣi_ Bangla ‘dual language’ (Haq 1957:174) for a register using many Perso-Arabic loanwords. Some _dobhaṣi_ literature was written in the → _nastaʿliq_ script, or in Bengali written from right to left.

Haq argues that _dobhaṣi_ reflects the 19th-century Wahhabi movement in southern Bengal. Abdul Mannan, who wrote the definitive treatment of _dobhaṣi_ literature in 1966, sees its origins in earlier Mughal patronage of Bengali. The first work on record “which has preserved evidence of the influence of the language of Muslim rulers [on Bengali] is the _Mɔnɔsavijɔyɔ_ of Bipradās Piplāi”, a Brahmin (ca. 1495 C.E., Mannan 1966:59).

Bharat Chandra wrote the following (from _Onnɔdamɔngɔl_):

_na rɔbe prɔsad guṇ_

[Persian, Arabic, Hindustani]

_na hɔbe rɔsal_

lack grace and poetic quality.

_ɔtɔeb o kohi bhaṣa_

I have chosen, therefore, the

_yaboni misal_

the mixed language of the Muslims.

_ye hok se hok bhaṣa kavyo rɔs lɔye_

The ancient sages have declared: “Any language may be used. The important thing is poetic quality” (Mannan 1966: 69–70; emphasis added)

This precolonial aesthetic of mixture gave way to a drive for purification.

In the 19th century, _dobhaṣi_ Bengali borrowed even more Perso-Arabic lexemes, perhaps (ironically) reflecting forces unleashed by Halhed's (1969/1778) _Grammar of the Bengal Language_. Halhed considered foreign elements pollutants in the “pure Bengalese”. He acknowledged “the modern [mixed] jargon of the kingdom” but declared the loanwords unintelligible outside large cosmopolitan towns (1969:xiv). Following Halhed's lead, British Orientalists and Hindu pundits working in Calcutta (Ft. William College) produced a Sanskritized register successfully promulgated as ‘standard Bengali’. The intensification of Perso-Arabic borrowings in 19th-century _dobhaṣi_ was thus a reaction to Orientalism and the Sanskritization of Bengali. As emerging Hindu and Muslim leaders competed for populist appeal, they declared the others' favored register (Sanskritized vs. _dobhaṣi_) “unintelligible to the masses”.

Some of Halhed's successors – e.g. William Carey – at least for a time rejected linguistic purism. “A multitude of words, originally Persian or Arabic, are constantly employed in common conversation, which perhaps ought to be considered as _enriching_ rather than corrupting the language” (Carey 1801:iii; emphasis in original). But Qayyum (1981) notes that later editions of Carey's _Grammar_ omitted these words. Around 1850, British missionary James Long dubbed the Islamized form of Bengali “Musalman Bengali” (later called Musalmani Bangla – a form relevant to producing targeted translations of the Bible).

Around 1900, members of the Hindu Bengali intelligentsia, such as Dinesh Chandra Sen and Rabindranath Tagore, made “Bengali literature” central to their “romantic nationalism” (Chakrabarty 2004). They believed that “the national [Bengali] literature” could engender a mystical union of the divergent groups of Bengali speakers, transcending the Hindu-Muslim divide. While they somewhat naively advocated this vision, Muslims in the united British Indian state of Bengal formed a Muslim Literary Association (1911), sensing that the Bengal Literary Academy (formed in 1893) was in some subtle way simply a “Hindu Bengali Literature Society”. But it was subtle. Hindu romantic nationalists did not advocate anything like the expurgation of Perso-Arabic words from Bengali. That was not what alienated Muslim literary figures. What the Hindu romanticists did so successfully was to promulgate a lexically Sanskritized Bengali that somehow appeared to be both the unmarked form of the language and the prestige variety.

*5. Muslim attitudes to official support of Bengali*
Colonial control required understanding and _ranking_ various forms of Bengali. Two visions competed, ascribing to Bengali an enduring Hindu ‘essence’ or a growing Islamic influence. The first branded Musalmani ‘unintelligible’. The second prompted colonial officers and some Muslim leaders to propose a ‘separate language’ for Bengali Muslims (Ahmed 1981:122). But colonial intelligentsia made Sanskritized Bengali represent not only a primordial essence but a prestige standard. Muslim opposition even to a Musalmani variety was a reaction to the putative Hindu essence of Bengali and to Musalmani's reputation as an “unsophisticated_patois_” (Ahmed 1981:126; cf. Qayyum 1981).

That some (not all, Anisuzzaman 1996) Muslims of the mid-20th century rejected Bengali language education indicates Bengali had become a bone of contention. Today, Bengali historians debate whether Partition was the fruit of the Raj's divide and conquer policy or the resolution of ‘essential’ differences. Metadiscourses about Bengali are part of that tortured history.

*6. The status of Bengali in the East Pakistan and → Bangladesh eras*
After Partition, the provincial East Pakistan government appointed an East Bengal Language Committee whose policy goals, summarized under the banner _sɔhɔj bangla_ ‘Simple Bengali’, were: “i) that… Sanskritization… be avoided as far as possible by the use of simple phraseology…; ii) that… expressions and sentiments of Muslim writers should strictly conform to… Islamic ideology; and iii) that the words, idioms and phrases in common use in East Bengal, especially those in the Puthi… literatures be introduced in the language more freely” (Chowdhury 1960, as translated by Dil 1986:454).

The reference to the _dobhaṣi_ Puthi literature makes clear that the “idioms… in common use” were Perso-Arabic. Pakistan had strong motivations for replacing Sanskritic with Islamicate derivatives. Appeals to linguistic ‘simplicity’ may sound democratic but, in Pakistan and elsewhere, often serve other agendas (Bauman and Briggs 2003).

In the late 1980s, Arabic expressions began displacing Persian ones among Muslim Bangladeshis; Muslims began using _Allāh ḥāfiẓ_ rather than the Persian _Xoda ḥāfiẓ_‘go[o]db[ewith]ye’. In 1995, Bangla Academy Director Monsur Musa wrote: “Nowadays, in certain Bengali newspapers, an eagerness to substitute Arabic words for prevailing Persian terms can be seen. These newspapers use _ṣalāt_ instead of _namaz, ṣiyām_ instead of _roja_ – and _Allāh_ is considered better than _Xoda_” (1995:92; translation mine). Musa noted that the Arabic words in announcements of religious events made them quite hard for the average Bengali to understand – an echo of older claims?

*7. Conclusion*
While for some, proliferating loanwords represent an impure accretion on the language of the land of Bengal, for others they can signal the true identity of the Bangladeshi nation-state – an Islamic identity (Farukkhi 1990). And there are many positions in between, for example those who celebrate Bengali authors' _playful_ use of Perso-Arabic loanwords (Anisuzzaman 1996). The contemporary Bengali scene is a broad span over rapidly moving _pani_.

*Bibliography*
Ahmed, Rafiuddin. 1981. _The Bengal Muslims, 1871–1906: A quest for identity_. Delhi: Oxford University Press.

Anisuzzaman. 1996. “The Bengali language as a vehicle of creativity: After 1952”._Contemporary Bengali writing: Literature in Bangladesh, Bangladesh period_, ed. K.S. Murshid, 243–250. Dhaka: University Press Limited.

Bauman, Richard and Charles Briggs. 2003. _Voices of modernity: Language ideologies and the politics of inequality_. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

Carey, William. 1801. _A grammar of the Bengalee language_. Serampore: Mission Press.

Chakrabarty, Dipesh. 2004. “Romantic archives: Literature and the politics of identity in Bengal”. _Critical Inquiry_ 30:3.654–683.

Chatterji, Suniti Kumar. 1934. _The origin and development of the Bengali language_, I. London: Allen and Unwin.

Chowdhury, Munier. 1960. “The language problem in East Pakistan”. _Linguistic diversity in South Asia: Studies in regional, social, and functional variation_, ed. Charles A. Ferguson and John J. Gumperz, 64–80. Bloomington: Indiana University Press.

Dil, Afia. 1986. “Diglossia in Bangla: A study of shifts in the verbal repertoire of the educated classes in Dhaka, Bangladesh”. _The Fergusonian impact_. II._Sociolinguistics and the sociology of language_, ed. Joshua Fishman, 451–465. Berlin and New York: Mouton de Gruyter.

Farrukhi, Asif Aslam. 1990. “Images in a broken mirror: The Urdu scene in Bangladesh”._Annual of Urdu Studies_ 7.83–87.

Halhed, Nathaniel B. 1969. _A grammar of the Bengal language, 1778_. Menston, Yorkshire: Scolar Press.

Haq, Muhammad Enamul. 1957. _Muslim Bengali literature_. Karachi: Pakistan Publications.

Hilali, Shaikh Ghulam Maqsud and Muhammad Enamul Haq. 1967. _Perso-Arabic elements in Bengali_. Dhaka: Central Board for Development of Bengali.

Irvine, Judith and Susan Gal. 2000. “Language ideology and linguistic differentiation”. _Regimes of language: Ideologies, polities, and identities_, ed. P. Kroskrity, 35–83. Santa Fe: School of American Research.

Mannan, Qazi Abdul. 1966. _The emergence and development of Dobhāsī literature in Bengal (up to 1855 A.D.)_. Dacca: Department of Bengali and Sanskrit, University of Dacca.

Musa, Monsur. 1995. _Bāṇlādešer rāstrabhaṣā_ [The state language of Bangladesh]. Dhaka: Bangla Academy.

Qayyum, Muhammad Abdul. 1982. _A critical study of the early Bengali grammars: Halhed to Haughton_. Dhaka: Asiatic Society of Bangladesh.

Stewart, Tony K. 2001. “In search of equivalence: Conceiving Muslim-Hindu encounter through translation theory” _History of Religions_ 40:3.261–288.

Wilce, James M. 1998. _Eloquence in trouble: The poetics and politics of complaint in rural Bangladesh_. New York: Oxford University Press.

——. 2002. “Tunes rising from the soul and other narcissistic prayers: Contested realms in Bangladesh”. _Everyday life in South Asia_, ed. D. Mines and S. Lamb, 289–302. Bloomington: Indiana University Press.

*Bengali*

by Enamul Haq, Md.

*(i) MuslimBengali Language.*
Bengali belongs to the Indo-European family of languages. It may have begun to evolve as a separate language with a distinct identity, out of Gauṛa Apabhramsa, about the 8th or 9th century A.D. The greater part of the vocabulary of Bengali was derived or borrowed from Sanskrit.

The Muslims conquered Bengal at the beginning on the 13th century, and ruled the country for nearly six hundred years. Under Muslim rule Persian was one of the languages of culture, provincial administration, and inter-state communication. Because of this, large numbers of Persian words and, through Persian, Arabic and Turkish words, became part of the Bengali language.

In 1836 English replaced Persian as the language of administration. From then onwards Persian no longer enjoyed the same status as before in the national life of Bengal and of northern India generally. Before the handing over of power in 1947, which resulted in the partition of Bengal, words of Perso-Arabic origin constituted nearly 8% of the total vocabulary of Bengali, and a little more than 15% of MuslimBengali vocabulary. Hindustani began to be spoken in Calcutta from the latter half of the 18th to the middle of the 19th century, and a number of Hindustani words were received into Bengali vocabulary. At the beginning of the 19th century, there was in written Bengali something of a conflict between Sanskritised Bengali, that is, Bengali in which Sanskrit words preponderated, and Persian Bengali; examples of this can be found in the works of Mrityunjay Bidyālankār and Rām Rām Basu. During this period innumerable Muslim_punthis_, known as Musalmānī Bānglā, appeared. These were written in a mixture of Bangali, Hindustani and Awadhi.

Words of Persian, Turkish or Arabic origin which have become part of Bengali can be classified under seven broad heads, namely: (1) Administration and warfare, _e.g., phouj_(soldiers) < _fawd̲j̲_ _, tak̲h̲t_ (throne) < _tak̲h̲t, laṛāi_ (war) < _larāʾī, shahid_ (martyr) < _s̲h̲ahīd_ _, d̲j̲akham_(wound) < _zak̲h̲m_, etc.; (2) Revenue and law-courts, _e.g., d̲j̲ami_ (land) < _zamīn, khād̲j̲nā_(revenue) < _k̲h̲azāna, Āin_ (law) < _āʾīn_ _, hakim_ (judge) < _ḥākim, kazi_ (judge) < _ḳāḍī_ _, phaisala_(judgement) < _fayṣala_, etc.; (3) Religion and ritual, _e.g., Āllah_ (God) < _Allāh_ _, khodā_ (God) <_k̲h̲udā, nāmāz_ (prayer) < _namāz_ _, rod̲j̲ā_ (fasting) < _rawḍa_ _, had̲j̲_ (pilgrimage) < _ḥad̲j̲d̲j̲_ _, korbāni_(sacrifice) < _ḳurbānī_, etc.; (4) Education, _e.g., doāt_ (inkpot) < _dawāt, kalam_ (pen) < _ḳalam_ _, kāgad̲j̲_ (paper) < _kāg̲h̲ad̲h̲, tālbilim_ (student) < _ṭālib-i ʿilm_, etc.; (5) Races, religions, and professions, _e.g., Ihudi_ (Jew) < _Yahūdī, Hidnu_ (Hindu race) < _Hindū_ _, Muslim_ (Muslim), _Phiringi_(English) < _Farangī, dard̲j̲i_ (tailor) < _darzī_, etc.; (6) Culture and civilisation, _e.g., rumāl_(handkerchief) < _rūmāl, golāb_ (rose) < _gulāb, āṭar_ (perfume) < _ʿiṭr_ _, āynā_ (mirror) < _āʾina, korma_ (preserved meat) < _ḳurma, koftā_ (meat ball) < _kūfta, hālwā_ (a type of sweetmeat) <_ḥalwā_, etc.; (7) Common things and notions in life, _e.g., naram_ (soft) < _narm, bāhbā_ (Well done!) < _bah bah, shābāsh_ (Bravo!) < _s̲h̲ād bās̲h̲, khabar_ (news) < _k̲h̲abar_, etc.

Persian contributed as many as 2,500 words to Bengali vocabulary in general, and nearly another 2,000 words to the vocabulary of the Muslims inhabiting the south-eastern part of East Pakistan in particular. In addition, Persian suffixes like _ī, dān, dānī, dār_ _, k̲h̲wur, bād̲j̲_ _, gīrī_, are used to form Bengali adjectives, abstract nouns etc., _e.g., desh_ + _ī_ = _deshi_ (country-made), _phul_+ _dānī_ = _phuldānī_ (flowervase), _dokān_ + _dār_ = _dokāndār_ (shopkeeper), _guli_ + _k̲h̲wur_ = _gulikhor_(drunkard) _mamlā_ + _bād̲j̲_ = _mamlābād̲j̲_ (litigant), _bābu_ + _gīrī_ = _bābugīri_ (interested in fashion), etc. Persian words like _nar_ and _māda_ denote gender in Bengali, _e.g., pāirā_ (pigeon), _narpāirā_(male pigeon), _mādi pāirā_ (female pigeon). Similarly _mardā_ and _mādi_ before a Bengali word of common gender denote the male and the female of the species respectively, _e.g., mardā kukur_ (dog), _mādi kukur_ (bitch).

Arab merchants developed commercial relations with the people of the south-eastern coastal regions of Bengal long before the political conquest of the country by the Muslims. The Muslim conquest in later times strengthened the religious and cultural ties of the people of this area with the Islamic way of life, and resulted in an increase in the numbers of the Muslim population. It left its mark on the pronunciation of words in this part of Bengal; for example, in the districts of Noakhali, Čittagong and Sylhet the use of the Arabic voiceless velar fricative_k̲h̲_  in place of the Bengali plosive _k_ and _k̲h̲_ of the same category, _e.g., k̲h̲apoṛ_ < _kāpoṛ_ (cloth),_k̲h̲āi_ < _khāi_ (I eat), etc., and the Arabic voiced alveolar fricative _z_ in place of the Bengali voiced plosive-like affricate d̲j̲ of the standard Bengali dialect, _e.g., zāi_ < _d̲j̲āi_ (I go), _zānā_ < _d̲j̲ānā_ (to know) etc.

Since the handing over of power in 1947 there has been in East Pakistan a growing tendency to absorb words of Perso-Arabic origin in large numbers through Urdu, as a result of cultural and political contact with West Pakistan.

(M. Abdul Hai)

*(ii) Muslim Bengali Literature*

*Formative Period (900-1200 A.D.).*
Bengali sprang up as a distinct branch of the Indo-Aryan language about three hundred years before Muslim rule in Bengal and flourished as a regional literature a century and a half after the Muslim conquest. But it did not exist either as a language or as a literature before Bengal came in contact with Islām and the Muslims. Archaeological excavations at Pāhārpur (Rājs̲h̲āhī) and at Maināmatī (Tripurā), which led to the discovery of a few ʿAbbāsid coins of the period from the 8th to the 13th centuries, and the history of Muslim saints like Bāyazīd Bisṭāmī (d. 874) at Nāṣirābād, Čittagong, SulṭānMaḥmūd Māhīsawār (1047) at Mahāst̲h̲ān, Bogra,MuḥammadSulṭānRūmī (1053) at Madanpur Mymensingh, Bābā Ādam (1119) at Vikrampur, Dacca, prove that there was constant maritime and missionary communication between the Muslim world and Bengal while the Bengali language was being formed.

*Turki Period (1201-1350 A.D.).*
The Turks conquered Bengal in 1202 and took 150 years to establish their administration all over the country. This was the period of creation of an Islāmic atmosphere through administrative, religious and social machinery. Sanskrit, the fountainhead of Hindu culture, fell into desuetude; Persian, the official and cultural language of the Muslims, came into prominence; and Bengali, the language of the masses, developed rapidly. _S̲h̲ek Sub̲h̲odayā_, a Sanskrit hagiology on S̲h̲ayk̲h̲Ḏj̲alāl al-Dīn Tabrīzī (d. 1225), and _Niranjaner Rus̲h̲mā_, a Bengali ballad by Rāmāi Pandit, contain sufficient materials indicative of the growing Islāmic atmosphere in Bengal.

*Period of Independence (1351-1575 A.D.).*
Bengal became independent under Sulṭān Iliyās S̲h̲āh (1342-1357) and preserved her independence for 225 years. The Sultans of Pandua and Gauḍ identified themselves with the people and extended their patronage liberally to Bengaliliterature irrespective of caste and creed. The _Ḇh̲āgavata, Rāmāyaṇa_ and _Mahāb̲h̲ārata_ were translated into Bengali under their direct patronage; the great poets Vidyāpati and Čandīdās flourished; and Muslims, participating with their Hindu neighbours, opened up new avenues of literary themes primarily derived from Perso-Arabic culture.

The first attempt at popularising Bengali among Muslim scholars was perhaps made by the saint-poet Nūr Ḳuṭb-i ʿĀlam (d. 1416) of Pandua, who introduced the '_Rīk̲h̲ta_ Style' in Bengali, in which half the hemistich was composed in pure Persian and the other half in unmixed Bengali. The saint was a classmate of G̲h̲iyāt̲h̲ al-Dīn Aʿẓam S̲h̲āh (1398-1410) and a life-long friend of the Sultan, under whose patronage Vidyāpati of Mit̲h̲ilā and MuḥammadṢag̲h̲īr of Bengal, the author of the first Bengali romance _Yūsuf-Zulayk̲h̲ā_, flourished. Other writers of romances, like BahrāmḴh̲ān with his _Laylā-Mad̲j̲nūn_, Sābirid Ḵh̲ān with his _Hānifā-Kayrāparī_, Donāg̲h̲āzī with his _Sayf al-Mulk_ and MuḥammadKabīr with his _Mad̲h̲umālatī_ (1583-1588), followed Ṣag̲h̲īr in quick succession.

Muslim historical tales too were introduced in Bengali by a few poets. Zayn al-Dīn wrote _RasūlVijay_ on the exploits of the Prophet, under the patronage of Yūsuf S̲h̲āh (1478-1481), who also helped Mālād̲h̲ar Basu to compose _S̲h̲rīkris̲h̲ṇa Vijay_. Sābirid Ḵh̲ān also wrote a _Rasūl_ _Vijay_, while S̲h̲ayk̲h̲FayḍAllāh (1545-1575) composed _G̲h̲āzī_ _Vijay_ and _Goraks̲h̲a Vijay_.

The earliest Muslim poet introducing Islāmic precepts in Bengaliliterature, was Afḍal ʿAlī. His book of admonition, _Naṣīḥat-nāma_, was written on the tenets of Islām. He was also a composer of songs, in one of which he mentions the name of Fīrūz S̲h̲āh (1532-1533).

Positive literary evidence on the fusion of Hindu and Muslim culture is found in S̲h̲ayk̲h̲FayḍAllāh's _Satyapīr_ (1575). He described in it the beliefs and practices of a new cult aiming at a common platform of worship for Hindus and Muslims alike. Čānd Ḳāḍī and S̲h̲ayk̲h̲Kabīr, two composers of songs on the common ideals of Ṣufīs and Vais̲h̲ṇabs, flourished during the time of Ḥusayn S̲h̲āh (1493-1519) and his son Nuṣrat S̲h̲āh (1519-1531).

*Mughal Period (1576-1757 A.D.).*
Bengal came under the Mug̲h̲als in 1576, to whom the country was a 'hell full of the bounties of heaven'. They introduced their own culture with more stress on Persian and neglected the provincial literature. Notwithstanding this, Hindu literature developed on the themes of Čandī, Manasā, Ḏh̲arma, Annadā and Gangā; Vais̲h̲ṇab literature reached its climax and MuslimBengaliliterature, deeply influenced by Indo-Persian literature, flourished as never before.

Among Muslim literary figures, two major poets deserve special mention, namely, SayyidSulṭān (1550-1648) and Ālāwal (1607-1680). The former was the saint-poet of Čittagong; _Nabī Vaṃs̲h̲a_, his _magnum opus_, rivalled the Bengali_Rāmāyaṇa_ and _Mahāb̲h̲ārata_ in all respects; the latter, who was a scholar poet of the Arakanese Court, adopted the theme of _Padmāyatī_(1651), from Hindī. Both of them exerted a wide and abiding influence on successive generations of poets, who not only improved upon the old themes, but also discovered new ones.

In the field of religion, the _Naṣīḥat-nāma_ of S̲h̲ayk̲h̲ Parān (1550-1615) and _Kifāyat al-Muṣallīn_of Muṭṭalib (1575-1660) are outstanding. Naṣr AllāhḴh̲ān (1560-1625), a prolific writer on religious subjects, wrote the _S̲h̲arīʿat-nāma, Mūsār Sawāl_ and _Hidāyat_ _al-Islām_. The _Bayānāt_ of Nawāzis̲h̲ Ḵh̲ān (1638), _Hazār Masāʾil_ of ʿAbd Karīm (1698), _Naṣīḥat-nāma_ and _S̲h̲ihāb_ _al-Dīn-nāma_ of ʿAbdal-Ḥakīm (1620-1690), _Sarsāler Nīti_ of Ḳamar ʿAlī (1676) also deserve notice.

In the realm of Muslim tales, the _Nabī Vaṃs̲h̲a, Rasūl_ _Vijay_ and _S̲h̲ab-i Miʿrād̲j̲_ of Sayyid Sulṭān; _Ḏj̲ang-nāma_ of Naṣr AllāhḴh̲ān (1560-1625), _Amīr Ḥamza_ (1684) of G̲h̲ulām Nabī and_Anbiyāʾ Vāṇī_ (1758) of ḤayātMaḥmūd narrate many legends about the Prophet and his uncle Ḥamza. Sayyid Sulṭān's _Iblīs-nāma_, MuḥammadḴh̲ān's _Ḳiyāmat-nāma_, S̲h̲ayk̲h̲ Parān's _Nūr-nāma_ and Muḥammad S̲h̲afīʿs _Nūr_ _Kandīl_ were built up with the Muslim concepts of Satan, Doomsday and Cosmogony respectively.

Romances introduced earlier were developed by ʿAbdal-Ḥakīm in his _Yūsuf Zulayk̲h̲ā_ and_Lālmatī Sayf al-Mulk_, Nawāzis̲h̲ Ḵh̲ān in his _Gul-i Bakāwalī_ (1638), G̲h̲arībAllāh in his _Yūsuf Zulayk̲h̲ā_ and Muḥammad Akbar in his _Zeb al-Mulk_ (1673). When pure romances became monotonous, S̲h̲erbāz in his _Fikr-nāma_ and S̲h̲ayk̲h̲ Sāʿdī in his _Gadā Mallikā_ (1712) introduced moral instruction in romances.

A good elegiac literature developed centring round the tragedy of Karbalā. MuḥammadḴh̲ān in his _Maḳtūl_ _Ḥusayn_ (1645), ʿAbdal-Ḥakīm in his _Karbalā_, ḤayātMaḥmūd in his _Ḏj̲ang-nāma_(1723), and MuḥammadYaʿḳūb in his _Maḳtūl_ _Ḥusayn_ (1694) contributed largely to the wide popularity of this theme.

*British Period (1757-1947).*
The Hindus took advantage of Western education at least half a century before the Muslims, and revolutionised Bengaliliterature by the introduction of a new prose and a new poetry embodying Western ideas, thoughts and forms. Iswar C̲h̲andra Vidyāsāgar (1820-1891), Bankim C̲h̲andra C̲h̲atterjī (1835-1894) and Mad̲h̲u-sūdan Datta (1824-1873) played a great rôle in this literary regeneration.

The Muslims entered the field half a century later. Mīr Mus̲h̲arraf Ḥusayn (1848-1931), Pandit Riyāḍal-Dīn Mas̲h̲hadī (1850-1919) S̲h̲ayk̲h̲ʿAbdal-Raḥīm (1859-1931), Kayḳobād (1858-1951), Muzzammil Ḥaḳḳ (1860-1933) and Dr. Abu 'l-Ḥusayn (1860-1916) took to this new Bengali to lay the foundation of modern MuslimBengaliliterature and a host of others came in their wake. Among them IsmāʿīlḤusaynS̲h̲īrāzī (1870-1931) was the most illustrious.

Meanwhile, Rabindranāth Tagore (1860-1941), the Nobel prize-winner, appeared on the literary scene of Bengal and raised her literature to a world stature.

Nad̲h̲r al-Islām (b. 1899), the Rebel Poet of MuslimBengal, ushered in a new school of realistic poetry full of life, light and vigour. He shared the sorrows and sufferings of his countrymen in particular and of oppressed humanity in general. He was the only singing bard to herald a new era of common men and awaken them to struggle for the independence of their motherland, a struggle which culminated later in the creation of Pākistān. In his wake, the poet Ḏj̲asīm al-Dīn (b. 1902) came forward to sing the songs of rural Bengal, particularly of its east portion, now known as East Pākistān.

*(Md. Enamul Haq)*

*Bibliography*
(i) MuslimBengali Language.
Halhed, _BengaliGrammar_ 1783, intro.

*(ii) MuslimBengaliliterature.*
Md. Enamul Haq, _MuslimBengaliLiterature_, Karachi 1958

idem, _Muslim Bānglā Sāhitya_, Dacca 1958

Abdul Karim, _Put̲h̲i Parichiti_, Dacca 1958

Sukumar Sen, _Islāmī Bānglā Sāhitya_, Burdwan 1358 B.S.

idem, _Bānglā Sāhityer Itihās_, vols. i-iii (2nd ed.), Calcutta

Md. Abdul Hai and Sayyid ʿAlī Aḥsan, _Bānglā Sāhityer Itivritta_, Dacca 1956

Dinesh Chandra Sen, _Vanga Bhās̲h̲ā-o-Sāhitya_, 8th ed., Calcutta 1356 B.S.

Suniti Kumar Chatterji, _Origin and Development of the Bengali Language_, Calcutta 1926

Md. Shahidullah, _Bānglā Sāhityer Kat̲h̲ā_, Dacca 1953.

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## kalu_miah

Alaol's poetry as a source for Arakanese history - Kaladan Press Network

*Alaol's poetry as a source for Arakanese history*
Category: Arakan Historical Seminar

Written By Kaladan News
Published: 15 July 2007
 
*Thibaut d'Hubert
Abstract*

During the XVIIth century, a Bengali poetical tradition emerged in the kingdom of Arakan. The main figure of this tradition is the court poet Ãlãol(?1607-1680) who composed adaptations into Bengali of texts originally written in medieval Hindi (Avadhi) or Persian. As far as now, six poems are known to be his compositions.

One of Ãlãol's interesting features is the presence of long prologs to his poems where he talks about his life, his patrons and the context of composition of the texts. The historians of bengah literature have been very interested in the historical datas found in the prologs to his poems, and, based on this material, many attempts have been done to draw the outlines of Ãlãol's biography and the chronology of his texts.
But the picture Ãlãol gives of his cultural milieu and the references he makes to some political events that he witnessed, and which would have more or less direct consecluences on his own life, and the mentions of characters related to the political and religious life of his time, can be very valuable to the study of XVIIth c. Arakanese social and political history.

Nevertheless, Ãlãol's texts don't claim to be historical chronicles, and in order to be able to apprehend properly the meaning and the historical validity of the datas present in his poems, it is absoluteiy necessary to understand these as expressed according to Ãlãol's poetical idiom and as assuming a specific function in the court poet's rhetoric, who is, on one hand, bound to the order of his current patron, and, on the other hand, always in search of a possible patron.

My point will be to define the nature of the datas concerning Arakan social and political history one can collect fiom Ãlãol's poems, and to raise few questions regarding fhe interpretation of those passages which constitute the emergence of the production context into the poetical text.

===================================================

*Introduction*

During the 17th century in Mrauk U, the capital of the Arakanese kingdom, two poets testify the emergence of a literature using Bengali language as a means of expression. These two poets are Daulat Kãjî who lived under the reign of Sirisudhammaraja(1622-1638), and Ãlãol whose literary activity extended from the reign of Satui:dhammaraja(1645-1652) to 1670-1671. Both Ãlãol and Daulat Kãjî , worked for individuals beionging to the Muslim nobility at the Arakanese royal court. In this paper I will focus on Ãlãol's works in the perspective of the use of the historical data collectable from the prologues to his poems.

Recent studies have shown how cosmopolitan was the kingdom of Arakan which was a very important place inside the Bay of Bengal commercial network, especially during the 16th and 17th centuries*1*. Available sources for the study of Arakanese history reflect the variety of the cultures encountered in this area, and historians have to deal with the multiple languages and literary genres to be able to cross-check the data they provide. Until now, most of the texts used by historians such as Persian, Tripuri and Arakanese chronicles or reports written by Dutch or Portuguese merchants were informative by nature; when using the term "informative" I mean that the main purpose of those texts was to convey a knowledge regarding the economical or political life in the area at this time. Alaol's works are poetical by nature, nevertheless few historical elements can be found in the sections revealing the context of production. The question regarding those data is: did the poet relate those events in order to provide the readers a knowledge regarding his contemporary life or do they play a part directly linked to his actual status as a court poet? This question is of vital importance if one attempts to use Ãlãol's poetry as a source for Arakanese history.

Historical data found in Ãlãol's texts can be divided into four categories: the poet's own life, his patrons, the king and the royal family and references to political events. As I am not a specialist of Arakanese history, I won't treat any subject directly dealing with political history and I will confine myself to questions regarding Ãlãol's biography. However, my approach will be as methodological as possible and the issues concerning the interpretation of the data of the poet's life are parallel to questions about the reading of other factual elements furnished by his texts.

First of all, I will present the life of Ãlãol according to what one can gather from the prologues to his poems. Then, I will raise a few questions regarding the studies carried out by historians of Bengali literature inspired by those prologues. Later I will talk about the structure of these passages and the rhetoric that shows through such an analysis. Finally I will give one example of how the understanding of the author's rhetoric can help a better understanding of the meaning of what seems to be factual data.

*Life and Work of Ãlãol: Ãlãol's biography according to the data available in the prologues to his poems*

Compared to the rest of medieval Bengati literature, one of Ãlãol's distinctive features is the rather detailed accounts of his life found in the prologues of his texts. Starting from the elements contained in those passages, many scholars attempted to sketch out his biography. Such depictions of the poet's own life, thoogh usually poor in content, are not so rare in medieval Bengali literature. It is traditionally placed after the _vandana_ or _hamd_ - or invocations to the gods in Hindu texts, or to Allah for Muslim authors -, just before the narration begins. The autobiographical part of the poems is called _ãtmav 0 ttãnta_ (lit."own story") or _kavira ãtmakathã_ (''poet's own story"), and because it ends with an introduction to the circumstances of the composition of the text, contemporary editors sometimes name this section _pustaka utpatira kathã_ ("story of the creation of the book"). Inspired by the prologues of Persian _mathnavis_, Ãlãol developed this already traditional account in Bengali literature. In the _Padmavati_ and the _Sikiandarnama _he followed faithfully the structure of the originals and substituted the eulogies of the poets' patrons, _gurus_ or _pirs_, or current sovereign, with those of his time and place, and the poets' lives with his life.

The first sections of the autobiographical part of the prologues where he mentions the place he came from, are always very similar. He sometimes uses almost the same verses in several poems*2*. After that, usually comes the section dealing with his arrival in Mrauk U (ben. Rosa0ga) and the salutary meeting with his patron - as we will see later, this is a very meaningful section regarding the rhetoric of his prologues. This also includes the description of the events which took place in Arakan in which he was involved. The last section describes the circumstances of the commissioning of the poem by the patron.

Before discussing the approaches of previous scholars while reconstructing the puzzle of Ãlãol's quite tumultuous life, I would like to add my own version of his biography.

At this stage of the analysis, my method to piece together his biography is the simplest: I render what he says, whithout trying to interpret or clarify the poet's own statements; in other terms, I will take the adage of medieval South-Asian copyists: _yatha d000a0 tatha likhitam_ (lit."Written as seen").

Ãlãol's father was the "minister" (ben. _amatya, patra_) of the sovereign of the Fatihabad "'kingdom" (muluk), namely Majlis Kutub (Majlis Qutb). He used to stay in the city of Jalalpura situated in the country of Gau0a. One day, he was traveling by boat for business with his father, when Portuguese pirates (hãrmãd) attacked them. Ãlãol's father "became a martyr" after he died in the battle, while the poet survived. Wounded in the fight, he reached Mrauk U (Rosã0ga), where he was incorporated in the army as a "royal horseman" (_rãjãsoyãra_). These events are related in all his poems except _Tohpha_.

After a while, he met a member of the royal court called Magana who became his friend and protector. This very person ordered a translation into Bengali of the Avadhi poem of Muhammad Jayasi (frst half of the 16'h c.) called Padmavat. The poem _Padmavati _was composed during the reign of Satui:dharnmaraja (ben. Sadauma0dara, Pad. 113a) who ruled between 1645 and 1652. The poem contains a long eulogy of this king and his kingdom in fifty-two tristics. Ãlãol also stresses the bonds between Magana and the royal family.

Magana also asked Ãlãol to compose a poem on the theme of the love story between Sayf-ul-mulk and a fairy called Badi-uj-jamal, a tale from theThousand and one nlghts*3*. He tells us that a pir called Mahachum Saha (Sayph. 49a.*4*) once told the story during a gathering at Magana's place and, his protector, delighted by the story, wished this Persian love tale to be the subject of a poem composed in payara meter *5* in order to make it understandable to those who did not know Persian language. Magana passed away before Ãlãol could finish the poem which remained uncompleted for years. In the prologue to the poem, the author mentions extensively a period of regency after the death of Satui:dhammaraja but he does not make any allusion to the coronation of Candasudhamma.

In 1659, under Candasudhamma's reign (1652-1684), Ãlãol completed the poem Sati-Mayna o Lora Candra0i, the first part of which was composed by Daulat Kaji, another Bengali court poet of Arakan. This is the first poem that contains a colophon with a date given in the Hegira (1070) and Arakanese (1020) eras *6*. This poem is an adaptation of a popular tale in the entire Gangetic valley. It tells the story of a queen, Mayna, who endures many austerities during the absence of the king, Lora, who went away to kidnap a beautiful princess whose husband, the king Vaimana, is unable to fulfill her desires. In the prologue to this text, Ãlãol only refers to the events preceding his arrival in Arakan without furnishing any new elements regarding his life since then – not with standing the commissioning of the poem itself by Choleman whom Ãlãol qualifies by the term mahapatra( Sat. 1.47a) or "prime minister".

Hapta paykar (or Sapta paykar), another translation from the Persian, but this time from a well known poem included in the Khamsa of Ni0ami Ganjavi (Caucasus,12th), was written by Ãlãol under the patronage of Sayid Mu0ammad Khan, a member of the king' s entourage *7*. In the eulogy of Candasudhammaraja, the poet mentions the arrival of the mughal prince Shah Shuja' in Arakan (in 1660) *8,* but he does not relate any incident connected to this event.

Between 1662 and 1664 *9*, Ãlãol translated from the Persian a "treatise on practical moral" (ben. nitisastra) entitled Tohpha, originally composed in Delhi during the 14th century by Yusuf Gada a sufi who belonged to the Chishtiyya order. Ãlãol's protector was a man named 0ulayman (ben. Solayaman or Choleman) about whom he does not give any information regarding his functions at the royal court. No political events are related in this text.

Around 1670 *10*, probably the same 0ulayman commissioned the poet to finish Sayphulmuluk Badiujjamal, the poem started under the patronage of Magana. Here, Ãlãol says that 0ulayman was in charge of the "royal domain" (rajera vi0aya) and that he had under his orders thousands of men "bearers of firearms" (agni astra dhari)*11*. In this poem, he tells how he has been caught in the conflict between Shah Shuja' and Candasudhammaraja because a man called Mirza (ben. Mirja) accused him of a crime -though he does not indicate what was the fault he was said to have committed. He stayed fifty days in jail, lost his belongings but finally regained his freedom, but he and his family were penniless and "totally dependent on others' will” *12*

The last poem*13* to be known to us as one of Ãlãol's composition is another translation of Ni0ami's Khamsa: the Sikiindarnama or "Book of Alexander"*14*. His patron at that time was MajIis Nabaraja *15*, who was a "mahamatya" (lit. "great minister"). In the prologue to this last poem, the mentions the conflict between Shuja' and Candasudhammaraja, adding further elements to his biography like his initiation to the Qadiriyya _0ariqa_ by the _qa0i _of Mrauk U (ben. rosa0gera kaji), Sayid Mas'ud Shah (ben. Saiyad Masaud Saha), or his teaching activity of literature (lit. "reading", _pa0ha_), singing and music (_gita-sa0gita_) to "the sons of very important people"*16*

*Issues regarding some aspects of Ãlãol’s biography as depicted by previous scholars*

The brief and somehow "telegraphic" biography of Ãlãol I have presented here according to the elements found in the protogues to his poems is an attempt to redefine the bases of the reconstruction of his life. My point now will be to discuss the way previous scholars worked to shed some light on the unclear passages of his biography, and on the missing elements then considered of crucial importance, like his birth and death places.

*Ãlãol appeared in the scholarly field with the work of Abdul Karim (1871-19530 17 who collected and catalogoed hundreds of manuscripts, mainly of poems composed by Muslitn authors. His leitmotiv was the preservation of the literary heritage of Bengali Muslims by publishing papersl8 and editing texts of Muslim poets of the medieval period. He devoted many essays to Ãlãol, who according to him was one of the greatest Bengali poets of the medieval period. He and his disciple Enamul Haq, wrote the first, and so far, the only monograph giving a general overview of Bengali literary production in Arakan 19. Based on the study of the manuscripts collected by Abdul Karim in his native region - the area of Chittagon - they introduced the authors chronologically, from Daulat Kaji(under the reign Sirisudharmnaraja1622-1638) and Ãlãol , who are the only poets who composed in Mrauk U, to more or less datable poets who lived in the Chittagong area during the 17th c.*

In the book, the authors claim that Ãlãol was born in Jobra, a village in the Chittagong area, where two places would be connected to his name: _"Alaolera dighi_"( Ãlãol's pond) and "Alaolrea masjid” (Ãlãol's mosque). This village is never mentioned in the texts and S. Mukhopadhyay suspects the authors of an overwhelming attachment to their native region *20*. S. k Ahsan also demonstrated the erroneous nature of this statement *21*.

Our point here is not to discuss the location of Ãlãol's birth place, but to question the actual need for contemporary scholars to speculate on these subjects for the investigation of which we do not have any reliable sources to work with. The only thing we know about Ãlãol's life prior to his arrival in Mrauk U is that he stayed in the western part of Bengal and that his father worked for Majlis Qutb, who probably was the _bhuyan_ (landlord) whom Mirza Nathan mentions in the _Baharistan-i-gha’ibii_ *22*.

Another question is his dates of birth and death. As nothing can be firmly established from his texts, and as no exterior source gives us any clue regarding this question, the speculations of Enamul Ha resulting in the very precise dates 1607-1680 are very hypothetical. The only thing ascertainable is that he wrote the first poem known to us (_Padmavati_) under the reign of Satui: dhammaraja (1645-1652) and the last ones (_Sayphul muluk_ and_Sikandarnama_) around 1670/1671. We should then confine ourselves to saying that he belongs to the bulk of the seventeenth century and that we are aware of a period of literary activity extending to twenty-five years, between 1645 and 1671.

The speculations around his biography seem to have been motivated mainly by two things: the need for Eastern Bengah intellectuals and scholars to stress the importance of Muslim authors of this region in the history of Bengali literature, and the enthusiasm caused by the autobiographical parts of Ãlãol's poems, data regarding the life of medieval poets being extremely rare.

*Abdul Karim was an autodidact, and his point of view on this literature is very valuable for he witnessed the end of its popular use 23. Nevertheless, his approach was that of a scholar and he was deeply conscious of and worried about the harm caused to the texts by the popular editions published in Calcutta and Dacca 24. He often calls these editors "businessmen" (vyavasadar) and "people free from knowledge and wit" (vidya-buddhi-sunya loka). His scientific approach to medieval literature was partly in reaction to this commercial attitude of Muslim publishers from Calcutta and Dacca.

Most of Abdul Karim's essays on medieval Bengali literature start with a complaint regarding the neglect of scholars and more generally of the Bengali cultural elite for the texts composed by Muslim authors during the medieval period. Indeed, Harprasada Shastri (1853-1931), Dinesh Chandra Sen (1866-1939) and Nagendranath Vasu (1866-1938), who were the pioneers in the field of study and edition of medieval Bengali manuscripts, were all Hindus. Abdul Karim considered unfair the responsibility and the means given by the British to Hindu scholars to work on Sanskrit and Bengali Hindu texts and saw the dissolution of Muslim Bengali literature partly as a result of this phenomenon. The competition and the need to rehabilitate "Muslim literature" is omnipresent in his texts 25. This Hindu / Muslim dichotomy goes with another dichotomy West/Est Bengal: the Western part being the cradle of important Hindu movements such as Caitanism and the Eastern part, especially Chittagong, being the so called original center of Bengali Muslim culture 26.

In such a context, the location of the birth place of a poet as Ãlãol who is considered as the main contributor to this "Bengali renaissance"27 was a crocial question. His disciple Enamul Haq, followed in the steps of his master, but the political context changed with the creation of East Pakistan in 1948 and with the independence of Bangladesh in 1971. The issue then was less the competition between Hindu and Muslitn literature, than the constitution ofa Bangladesh identity in a nation building context.

The focus was then on the role of Ãlãol's poetry in the history of Muslim Bengali culture and the context of Arakanese literary production was considered as secondary: the exil of Bengali poets was understood as a temporary situation due to the tumultuous political context of Bengal after the arriving of the Mughals. The literacy activity of Bengali poets in Arakan was also regarded as a chance for Arakanese people who were thougtlt to be "culturally backward" 28.*

Recent works such as J. P. Leider's PHD thesis *29 *make possible the settlement of Ãlãol's work in a clearer historical frame. Without neglecting the importance of Bengali literature in Ãlãol's poetry and the impact of his poems on later Bengali poets, by doing research on this literature, my attempt is to depart from nationalist approaches and to study Ãlãol's poetry, in its Arakanese context, with a reflection on the cultural incidences of such a literary production in a kingdom that politically and economically was reaching the climax of its activity.

I mentioned earlier the lack of critical analysis of Ãlãol's prologues and the enthusiasm caused by the autobiographical elements wich they contain. In the following paragraphs, I will discuss the data provided by these passages according to Ãlãol's rhetoric.

*Rhetorical speech versus informative discourse: toward a comprehensive reading of Ãlãol's prologues*

At first sight, what is striking about the prologues of Ãlãol's poems is, on the one hand the reflection led by the poet on his literary activity and more generally on poetics, and on other hand the depiction of the context of production of his poems. The questions I would like to raise now are: why did Ãlãol relate his autobiography in five of his six poems? and how much credit can be given to the depictions provided by Ãlãol, considering the poetical nature of his texts and the material dependence to his patrons suggesting the use of a specific rhetorical discourse? In order to answer these questions, after analyzing the structure of his prologues, I propose to give one example of the ambiguity concerning a well established part of his biography revealed by the study of his rhetoric.

As I have already mentioned, the prologues are always structured in the same way that is as following *30*.

a) Eulogy of the king (or queen);

b) Eulogy of the patron (related to his function at the royal court);

c) Autobiographical part:

*Section I:*

1.Depiction of the place he came from (Fatihabad);

2.Attack of the Portuguese pirates, death of his father, arrival to Rosa0ga;

*Section II:*

1.Eulogy of the patron (as Ãlãol's protector);

2.Depiction of the patron's court and ordering of the poem;

*Section III:*

1.Comments on literary composition and poetics;

2.Concluding vers (es) of the prologue.

This is the basic structure of the prologues, but, regarding the content of section I, one can divide Ãlãol's poems in two groups. _Pad, Sayph_ 1 and _Sat_. present strictly the same events, but _Sayph_. 2 omits the attack by the Portuguese and the arrival in Rosa0ga, which is understandable as these events have been narrated in the first prologue, and replace it with the arrival of Shuja' and the poet's confinement resulting in the loss of his belongings. In _Sik_ the author mentions both of those events.

This pattern shows how calculated is the presentation of all the elements of his life, and the regularity of this passage is a sign of a well designed rhetorical speech. In the first two sections, Ãlãol gives the assurance of his respectable origins - he is the son of a "minister" and belongs to a milieu of "people keen on gatherings, refined in their speech and devotion" *31* - which is echoed in 2.2, where he describes briefly the atmosphere at his patron's court. Then, the adventurous episode of the Portuguese attack involving his father's death and his arrival in Mrauk U wounded and forsaken, amplifies the eulogy of his protector's generosity. This technique is used twice in the _Sik_ where he ads his confinement and presents his protector as the one who saved him and his family from total impotence.

Section 3 that is sometimes (e.g._ Sayph_. 2) interlaced with 2.2, is made to show the skills of Ãlãol as a poet and how competent he is to fulfill the task he has been assigned *32*.

Ãlãol's prologues are not purely informative, and the data contained in these passages are not to be read as a legacy for future generations regarding his contemporary life. They have a well defined aim directly linked to the poet's current preoccupations: enabling him to find his next patron in order to earn his livelihood. Chronicles and reports I mentioned in the introduction that I called "informative" also correspond to a specifc rhetoric and it is also necessary to take it in account, but the aim of such texts is usually ideological and the impact expected is on a wider timescale. Here, the author seems to use factual events in order to convince people facing him while reciting his poem, people liable to provide him with material needs. The immediate and non ideological character of his rhetoric in these passages makes it different from the one occuring in informative text.

Let's now see how the awareness of Ãlãol's rhetoric can redefine what we know about his biography. It is commonly accepted that the first protector of Ãlãol was Magana. In Pad he writes:

_kahite aneka katha du0kha aipanara / rosa0ge asiya hailun raja- achoyara //_

_bahu musalmana saba rosa0ge baisanta / sadacari kulina pa00ita gu0avanta //_

_sabe k0pa karenta sambha0a bahutara / alima olama bali karenta adara //_

_mukhya pa0esvarira amatya mahajana / satyavadi jitendriya0hakura Magana //_

_bhagyodaya haila mora vidhi parasana /du0kha nasa hetu tana sa0geta milana //_

_aneka adara kari bahula sammana /satafa po0anta anna vastra dana //_

_madhura alape vasa haila mora mana / tana gu0a sutra haila grivate bandhana //_

(_Pad. 196-202_)

_"I feel much pain telling my story. Arrived in Rosa0ga, I became royal horseman._

_Many Muslims live in Rosa0ga; they are honest in their conduct, noble [by birth], erudite and endowed with qualities._

_Every one provides favors and converses much [with me]; learned men call [me] scholar and show affection._

_The great man who is the first queen's minister is the lord Magana, an adept of truth and a defeater of his senses._

_Touched by destiny, my good fortune rose, [and] for the sake of annihilation of grief [I was to] meet with him._

_Showing much affection and respect [to me], he constantly took care of me with gifts of food and garments._

_By his sweet speech my heart has been subdued, and the garland (lit.string) of his qualities has been tied to my neck."_

In this extract, we get the impression that Magana is the first protector of Ãlãol who does not mention the existence of any other benefactor before him. Let's now compare these verses with a passage taken fiom the prologue of Sati Mayna o Lora Candra0i:

_katheka apana du0kha kahimu prakasi / raja asoyara hainu rosa0gete asi //_

_srimanta choleman maha gu0avanta /prra desi gu0i paile adara po0anta //_

_maha hara0ita haila paiya ahmare / anna vastra dane nitya po0anta sadare //_

_(Sat. 8-10.)_

_"I openly told some griefs of mine. Arrived in Rosa0ga I became royal horseman._

_The noble Choleman is a great [man adorned] with qualities; when he acquires a stranger endowed with qualities, he respectfully takes care of him._

_He became most joyful when he obtained me; constantly he affectionately took care of me with gifts of food and garments."_

Once more no transition is formulated to articulate his arrival in Rosa0ga and the meeting with the benefactor. This is related to the rhetoric mentioned above: the patron has to be introduced as the protector _par excellence_. Without the mention of the name of the current king, it would be impossible to define any chronological order between both of these texts. It is then inappropriate to claim that Magana was the first patron of Ãlãol, because no outside source can lead us to such a conclusion and, submitted to an analysis taking in account the general rhetoric of the poet, the text itself does not contain this statement.

*Conclusion*

As my previous analysis tends to demonstrate, autobiographical parts of Ãlãol's poems are organized according to a specific rhetoric that has to be aknowledged when we try to interpret the factual data used to build his speech. That's why I want to stress on the precautions that are to be taken when using a text which content is not informative in the field of historical investigations. With the issues I mentioned concerning Ãlãol's biography my attempt was to show how dependent on the current necessity of the court poet are what seem to be positive data found in the poems. The problematic is the same for data regarding his patrons, the royal family or any political event: in order to be scientifically valid they have first to be replaced in the poet's rhetorical flame and, when possible, cross-checked with other sources.

Until now, Ãlãol's literary production has often been anecdotically mentioned by historians as a proof of the Muslim presence at the Arakanese court during the 17th century. As we noticed in the introduction, different historical characters and events appear in the prologues to Ãlãol's texts, and the study of those elements would certainly help clarifying a few points of the Arakanese history during this period.

In my paper only factual data have been mentioned. Some of those data as the autobiographical elements or the names and functions of Ãlãol's patrons could not be cross-checked with any other source, but some others such as the arrival of Shuja' and the royal successions are found in different texts.

One can assume that a precise and methodical parallel study of the titles and functions of Ãlãol's patrons as he depicted them and of what is found in the Arakanese chronicles could enable us to have a better idea of the status of this Bengali speaking nobility of Mrauk U.

But Ãlãol's texts are above all a priceless source for the cultural history of the kingdom. The choice of the translations and the references to other texts made by the author inside the poems provide us with the actual availability of Persian, Sanskrit and Avadhi literature in 17th century's Mrauk U. The variety of Ãlãol's cultural references and his statement concerning his teaching activity also raise the question of the education of this nobility. All his works reveal a concern for educating his patrons and their court, as well as an attempt to forge an original, literary taste by choosing Persian themes and expressing them through a very Sanskritic poetical idiom in a Bengali metrical frame. Through his references to Sanskrit literature and poetics one can assume that he had been in contact with Brahmins and bouddhist scholars, which encourages further studies regarding Sanskrit scholarship in Mrauk U.

Many informations regarding the religious life can also be gathered from his poems. All the texts he translated circulated in Sufi milieus either as meditative material (e.g. _Padmavati, Sati Mayna o Lora Candra0i_) or as doctrinal hand book (_Tohpha_). Ãlãol himself was initiated to the Qadiriyya Sufi order.

The perspectives of studies are numerous and the material abundant, yet all his

poems have not been critically edited. By now, only _Sikandarnama, Padmavati, Sati Mayna o Lora Candra0i_ and_Tohpha_ have been scientifically edited. _Sayphulmuluk_ and _Hapta paykar_ are still to be done. As far as I know, no English translation of his poems exists and very few papers dealing with Ãlãol are available in this language *33*.


*References *


See S. Subrahmanyam, "And a River Runs through it: The Mrauk U Kingdom and its Bay of Bengal Context", in J.Gommans and J.Leider ed.,The Maritime Frontier of Burma – Exploring Political Culture and Commercial Interaction in the IndianOcean World,1200-1800, Koninklijke Nederlandse Akademie van Wetenschappen, KITLV Press,Leiden, Amsterdam, 2002, pp. 107-126.
For instance the following sentence which refers to the sovereign of his native region: majlis kutub tahate adhipati / ami hina dina tana patrera santati // (Pad. 193ab), majlis kutub tayhate adhipati / tahana amatyasuta mui hinamadi // ( Sat. 2.5ab) , rajyesvara majlis kutub mahasaya/ muni ksudra mati tana amatya tanaya // ( Sat. 13.5ab).The translation for these three verses would be : "Majlis Qutb is the sovereign [of this region, and] I, who am poor and mediocre (/ a fool, hinamati), am the son of his minister (patra or amatya).
See Dena Gaji,Sayphul muluk Badiujjamal Ahmed Sharifed., Dhaka, 1975, pp. 1-13.
For the prologue to Sayphul muluk Badiujjamal I used the extracts edited by A. Karim. See A..Karim, Abdul Karim sahityavisarada, AbdulAhsan Chaudhuri ed., Dhaka, 1997, pp.250-262.
The payara is the most popular meter in the north-eastern part of South-Asia. It is a syllabic meter of 14 feet, with a regubr caesura after the eighth foot. Most of the Bengali, as well as Assamese and Oriya medieval literature has been composed in payara.
See S. Mukhopadhyaya, Puratanabangla sahityera tathya o kalakrama, Dhaka, 2000, p. 327 and Ãlãol, Sati-Mayna Lora Candrani, Mohammad Abdul Kaum ed., Dhaka, 1992, p. 127.
A. Karim, and other scholars affer him, said he was a "general of the army" (ben.samara saciva), but in the manuscript I worked with at the Bangla Acaderay (Hapta paykar alokacitra 33) I didn't notice such a title. In the last line of the folio n˚ 11 and first line of the n˚12; one can read affer the eulogy of Candasudhammaraja: hena moha raj[e]svbara akhanda sampada / tana moha sanamati chaida mohammada // The word sanamati that qualifies Sayid Muhammad (Chaida Mohammada in the text) means "quiet minded", but a may be a corruption of sainyapati"general of the army". As I have not check more manuscripts of Hapta paykar yet, and in the absence of any critical edition of the poem, I am unable to come to more precise conclusions regarding the function of Mohammad Khan at the royal court.
Ms., B.A. alokacitra n˚ 33 folio n˚ 11,1. 7-8.
Two dates are avaibble in the colophon: 1073 Hegira (=1662 A.D.) and 1026 maghi(= 1664 A.D.). See Ãlãol, Tohpha, A.Sharif ed., Dhaka, 1975, introduction p. 8, for another reading of the chronogram resulting with the dates 1663/1664-1665, see S.Mukhopadhyaya, Puratana bangle sahityera tathya o kalakrama, Dhaka, 2000, p.328.
The poet says that "nine years passed" since the incident with Shk Shuja' in 1661. See Sayph 20a.
A. Karim, Abdul Karim sahityavisarada racanavali, Abdul Ahan Chaudhuri ed., Dhaka, 1997,p.259.
The informations about the time he spent in jail and his situation after his liberation are given in the Sikandarnama. See Ãlãol, Sikandarnama, A.shrif ed., Dhkha, 1977.p.28.
In Sikandarnama, after the narration of his life, before he starts to introduce his patron, he says: "ten years passed in such a manner" (ehi mate dasa bachara gain gela / Sik. 13. 25a.). It is not very clear what is the starting point of these ten years, but one can assume that he refers to the time he spent in jail after the arrival of Shah Shuja' in 1661.
The originai Persian poem is divided into two sections namely the"Sharaf nama” the narrative part dealing with the conquests of Alexander, and the "Iqbal nama” that is didactical and speculative in content. Ãlãol only translated the Sharaf nama.
“Nabaraja” may be a title (< sk. navaraja) and its literal meaning would be "young king" or "prince".
See Ãlãol, Sikandarnama, A.Sharif ed., Dhaka, 1977, pp. 27-28.
Dinesh Chandra Sen in his History of Bengali Language and Literature, already mentioned Ãlãol and his poems, but didn't go further in the study of his works.
See Intro A. Karim, Abdul Karim sahityavisarada racanavali, Abdul Ahsan Chaudhuri ed., Dhaka, 1997 and his biography A. Karim, Abdul Karim sahityavisarada jivana o karma, Dhaka,1994.
Md. Enamul Haq and A. Karim, Arakan rajasabhaya bangle sahitya[1600-1700], Kolkata, 1st edition 1935, in Muhammad Enamul Hak racanavali, vol. 2, Dhaka, 1993.
In their monograph on Bengali literature at the court of Arakan the two authors also claim that Daulat Kaji, who by the way does not give any infomration about his personal life, was a native of the Chittagong area too. And according to them his descendents remained in the village of Sultanpur, in the Hatajari sub-district E. Haq. Muhammed Enamul Hak racanavali, vol.2.pp.43-44.
Ãlãol, Padmavadi,S. A. Ahsan ed, Dhaka, 2003, pp. 30-31.
See S.Mukhopadhyaya, Puratana bangle sahityera tathya o kalakrama, Dhaka, 2000, p.334 and Ãlãol, Padmavati,S. A. Ahsan ed, Dhaka, 2003, pp. 30-31.
A. Karim, Abdul Karim sahityavisarada jivana o karma, Dhaka, 1994, p.119.
See A. Karim, Abdul Karim sahityavisarada racanavali, Abdul Ahsan Chaudhuri ed., Dhaka, 1997, pp. 422-426.
This does not mean that he rejected Hindu ritruatwe. On the contrary, his interest for medieval literature was arisen after reading poems on the love of Radha and Krsua. He himself edited several Hindu texts and was well versed in Sanskrit language and literature. See the introduction of A. Karim, Abdul Karim sahityavisarada racanavali, Abdul Ahsan Chaudhuri ed., Dhaka, 1997, and A. Karim, Abdul Karim sahityavisarada jivana o karma,Dhaka, 1994.
E. Haql Muhammad Enamul Haq racanavali vol.2, pp. 33-34.
See S. Bhattacharya, "Myth and History of Bengali Identity in Arakan”, in J. Gommans and J.Leider ed., The Maritime Frontier of Buma – Exploring Political, Cultural and Commercial Interaction in the Indian Ocean World, 1200-1800,Koninklijke Nederlandse Akademie van Wetenschappen, KITLV Press, Leiden, Amsterdam, 2002, pp. 206-210.
For instance see the first paragraph of A. M. Serajuddin, "Muslim inffuence in Arakan and the Muslim names of the Arakanese kings: a Reassessment”, in Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bangladesh 31.1, Dhaka, 1986 and E. Haq,Muhammad Enamul Haq recanavali vol.1, p.357.
J. P. Leider, Le royaume d’Arakan, Birmanie: son histoire politique entre le debut du Xve etla fin du XVIIe siecle, Paris, 2004.
"This plan as been made according to the content of five prologues (Pad, Sayph, 1, Sati, Sayph.2 and Sik). Tohpha does not contain a. complete autobiographical part and Hapta paykar being not edited yet and having only one manuscript to our disposition we didnt dare take it into account.
baise samajika loka ukti bhakti sista // Sat.2b
Ãlãol often stresses the idea that poetry is a craft and requires specific skills obtainable by the study of treatises (ben.sastra). See Th. d'Hubert, La culture indo-persane la literature Bengali medievale: question autour de “I’art poetique” dans I’oeuvre d’ Ãlãol (? 1607-1680), EPHE, paris 2005, pp. 39-40.
See for instance S. Sen, Histcvy of Bengali Literature, New Delhi, 1976; Gaeffke, Peter, "Alexander and the Bengali Sufis", in Studies in South Asian Devotional Literature, research paper, 1988-1991, presented at the Fifth Conference on'Devotional Literature in New Indo-

*This paper was submitted at "Arakan History Conference", Bangkok 23.11 - 25.11.2005, organised by the Institute of Asian Studies, Chulalongkorn University, Bangkok, Thailand.*

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## kalu_miah

Alaol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Alaol-Ali Abbas Husaini*[1] (Bengali: আলাওল; 1607-1680 CE) was a poet in Bengal during medieval age.[2] He is thought to be born around 1607 in Faridpur in the present-day Bangladesh. His most well known work is _Padmavati_, which depicts the story of Padmavati, the Sinhala princess and the queen of Chittor. He is considered to be one of the most prolific medieval Bengali poets.[2] Since most of his poems were combination of emotion with intellect, he is called the*Pandit Kavi* or 'Wise Poet' of medieval Bengali literature.[2]

There is an important literary prize named after him in Bangladesh, the Alaol Puroshkar.

*Early life*
Alaol was born in Fatehabad, located currently in Faridpur of Bangladesh, to a minister in the court of Majlis Qutb, the ruler of Fatehabad.[3][4] Alaol was kidnapped by Portuguese pirates while travelling on boat with his father and subsequently was taken to Arakan.[3] Alaol worked as a bodyguard for a while, but slowly his reputation as a poet spread. His talent was first recognised by Solaiman, a minister of king Srichandra Sudharma (Sanda Thudhamma) of the Mrauk-U dynasty of Arakan.

*Works*
In 1659, he completed _Sati Mayana o Lor-Chandrani_, the first part of which was completed earlier by another Bengali court poet of Arakan, Daulat Qazi.[3] He translated _Tohfa_ at the request of Srichandra Sudharma or Sanda Thudhamma. Later, prince Magan Thakur, the foster-son of the sister of king Srichandra Sudharma and co-regent and the prime minister of Arakan, secured him a place in the court of Arakan.

His major work, _Padmavati_, based on Malik Muhammad Jayasi's Padmavat was written under the patronage of Magan Thakur. He also began writing the _Saifulmuluk Badiuzzamal_, an adaptation of a Persian work of same name during this period. After the death of Magan Thakur, he received patronage from Saiyad Muhammad Musa, the army chief of king Shrichandra Sudharma. He translated the _Haftapaykar_ from Persian as *Saptapaykar* in Bengali on his request. In the eulogy of Saptapaykar, Alaol mentioned the arrival Mughal prince Shah Shuja in Arakan.[3] In 1659, Shah Shuja took refuge in Arakan court. In 1660, after the killing of Shah Shuja, Alaol was also thrown out of the Arakan court because of his closeness with him. According to his autobiographical passages in 'Sikandernama', he was initially imprisoned. At this juncture, Sayed Masud Shah, a minister or Qazi of the Arakan king gave him shelter. Masud Shah also gave Alaol Khilafat under QadiriyyaTariqa. Alaol completed his _Saifulmuluk Badiuzzamal_ on his request. He spent his last days in the court of Majlis Navaraj, another minister of Arakan, where he wrote his last work 'Sikandernama' (according to Ahmed Sharif) or _Dara-Sekandar_ (according to Sukumar Sen), a translation of Eskander-nama by the Persian poet Nizami Ganjavi.[4]

His works, apart from Ragtalnama, are adaptations of works in other languages which include:

Padmavati
Satimayana-Lor-Chandrani (completion of Doulat Kazi's work)
Saifulmuluk Badiuzzamal
Sikandernama (1671-72)
Tohfa (1660)
Saptapaykar
Ragtalnama
His poems demonstrates his prolific Sufi idea based on mysticism and his own Sufi interpretations.[5]

*Legacy*
A principal mail student Dormitory of the University of Chittagong in Bangladesh has been named after him as Alaol Hall.[6]

*References*

*Jump up^* _Encyclopaedia of Indian Literature: A-Devo - Google Books_. Books.google.com.bd. Retrieved 2013-05-24.
^ Jump up to:_*a*_ _*b*_ _*c*_ Wakil Ahmed. "Alaol in Banglapedia". Asiatic Society of Bangladesh._Retrieved: 2014-01-13_
^ Jump up to:_*a*_ _*b*_ _*c*_ _*d*_ Thibaut D' Hubert. "Alaol". Kaladan Press Network._Retrieved: 2014-01-13_
^ Jump up to:_*a*_ _*b*_ Sen, Sukumar (1993). _Islami Bangla Sahitya_ (in Bengali), Kolkata: Ananda Publishers, ISBN 81-7215-301-5, pp.34-6
*Jump up^* Abu Musa Arif Billah (July 2008). "20th European Conference on Modern South Asian Studies, Manchester 2008". European Association of South Asian Studies._Retrieved: 2014-01-21_
*Jump up^* "Official Website". University of Chittagong. _Retrieved: 2014-01-21_
*External links*

Banglapedia article on Alaol
Alaol | BanglaPedia : National Pedia of Bangladesh
http://www.arts.manchester.ac.uk/ec...o16/panelpdfs/Fileuploadmax10Mb,134379,en.pdf
"13. Abu Musa Mohammad Arif Billah, SOAS, London
Syncretism, Mysticism and Artistry in Alaol’s and Jayasi’s Padmāvatī: a Comparative
Study

Alaol contributed a lot in the promotion of the late medieval Bengali literature. His narrative Sufi
romance Padmāvatī written in Bengali is, originally, a transformation of a Hindi poem of the same
title by Malik Muhammad Jayasi. As a Sufi, Jayasi embellishes his Padmāvatī by Persian Sufi
tradition, especially by Attar’s -TairMantiq u’t, the speech of birds. Alaol’s transfigures the
structure, symbolism, metaphor and exemplification of the poem immensely by his creative
imagination and by, to some extend, his own way of Sufi interpretations – well reflected in the
final part of his poem. He demonstrates his prolific Sufi idea, extending Jayasi’s fanā, i.e.
annihilation, to his baqā, i.e. subsistence, concept by illustrating an imaginary relationship
between the two child princesses of Ratan Sen and Sultan Alauddin of Delhi. This paper attempts
to draw the quality, significance, syncretism, and mysticism of Alaol’s Padmāvatī with necessary
citations and textual evaluation. "

Alaol's contemporary Shah Shuja:
Banglapedia
"*Shah Shuja* (1639-1660 AD) Mughal viceroy of _subah_ Bangla, was the second son of Emperor shahjahan and Empress Mumtaj Mahal. Born on 23 June 1616,.......

Shah Shuja, a typical Mughal prince, was learned, cultured and polished. He patronised Persian poets and scholars who adorned his court. These people were mostly from Iran and belonged to the _Shia_ sect. His important nobles were Shias, and even in the subordinate posts the Shias were predominant. His mother was a Shia lady, his two wives, married one after the other, were also Shia. There is a tradition prevalent at Dhaka that Shuja brought with him to Bengal three hundred Shias whom he got settled in different parts of the country. At Delhi, rumour spread that Shah Shuja had turned a Shia, and the supporters of his brother aurangzeb fanned the rumour. But the accusation was not true; like his father, grandfather and great-grandfather, he appreciated the cultured intellectual society of Persian scholars, sufis and administrators.

Shuja was a great builder; the earliest extant Mughal buildings at Dhaka date from his time. They are the bara katra, the idgha, the husaini dalan and the Churihatta mosque. The Bara Katra was built on the bank of the river Buriganga (Budiganga), a little to the south of Chaukbazar. A large building, a grand and imposing structure, it was originally built for the residence of the prince, but since the latter preferred to live at Rajmahal, the Bara Katra was given for the residence of travelling merchants, ie it was used as a katra or Sarai. The Idgah is a raised platform, enclosed on all sides, meant for congregational prayers on the two _Id_ days. The Husaini Dalan, built by Sayyid Murad in 1642-43, was used for the congregation of the Shias and the Churihatta mosque was built in 1650.......

he decided to leave Bengal (and India) for good and take shelter in arakan. He left Tanda with his family and retinue in the afternoon of 6 April 1660 and reached Dhaka on 12 April. He left Dhaka on 6 May and boarded the Arakanese ships on 12 May at bhulua.

Shuja made contacts with Arakan before his departure from Bengal. His plan was to go to Makka and thence to Persia or Turkey. But as the sea was rough in May and the rainy season, he asked for asylum in Arakan for a few months and help in procuring ships. On his arrival at Mrohaung (Mrauk-U), the capital of Arakan, the king warmly received him through his ministers. A house was allowed for Shuja’s stay in the outskirts of the city. But as time passed, the king’s attitude to his guest changed; either for getting hold of rich treasures Shuja carried with him, or to get one of the pretty and cultured daughters of Shuja as his spouse, the king picked up a quarrel with Shuja. Shuja, his family and his retinue were tortured to death. A few of his retinue, fleeing to the countryside, could escape the gruesome murder, but none of the Mughal princes or princesses survived. [Abdul Karim]

*Bibliography *JN Sarkar (ed), _History of Bengal_, vol II, Dhaka, 1948; JN Sarkar, _History of Aurangzib_, vol II, New Delhi, 1972-74; A Karim, _History of Bengal, Mughal Period_, vol II, Rajshahi, 1995."

Daulat Qazi | BanglaPedia : National Pedia of Bangladesh
*"Daulat Qazi* (c 1600-1638) medieval Bangla poet, believed to have been born into a Qazi family in the village of Sultanpur in rauzan, chittagong. As his patronymic suggests, he was an educated person. Not getting any recognition at home, he left for Arakan, where he seems to have been received warmly. *He was appointed court poet of King Sri Sudharma (Thiri-thu-Dhamma, 1622-1638) for whom he composed the poem Satimayna O Lorchandrani. He was able to complete only two-thirds of the poem before he died. alaol completed the rest of the poem in 1659.*

_Satimayna O Lorchandrani_ is a romantic narrative poem about the love of a feudal prince and princess. It is believed that the poet was influenced by two Hindi poems: _Mainasat_ by Mian Sadhan and _Chandain_by Molla Daud. The Hindi poems, however, have a deeper spiritual meaning which is absent in Daulat Qazi's poem about human love. Daulat Qazi's genius is revealed in his measured verses and the beauty and charm of his descriptions.

A Sufi by faith, Daulat Qazi skillfully used the _ramayana_, the _mahabharata_, the epics of kalidasa andjaydev, as well as Vaishnava lyrics and folk tales in his poem. His language draws from the vocabulary of Arabic, Persian, Magh, Arakanese, Burmese, Sanskrit and the dialects of the Chittagong region.

[Amrita Lal Bala]"

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## kalu_miah

The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204–1760

"Serving to check the growth of the “religion of the Book,” however, was the fact that the book in question, the Qur’an, was written in a language unknown to the masses of Bengali society. Moreover, since the Qur’an had been revealed in Arabic, in Bengal as elsewhere fear of tampering with the word of God inhibited its outright translation. As we have seen, Bengali Muslims were extremely reluctant to translate even Islamic popular lore into Bengali. *Of course, they could have done what many other non-Arab Muslims did—that is, retain their own language for written discourse but render it in the Arabic script, as happened in Iran (modern Persian) and North India (Urdu). The transliteration of any language into Arabic script not only facilitates the assimilation of Arabic vocabulary but fosters a psychological bond between non-Arab and Arab Muslims. In the seventeenth century, in fact, attempts were made to do the same for Bengali. The Dhaka Museum has a manuscript work composed in 1645 entitled Maqtul Husain—a tract treating the death of Husain at Karbala—written in Bengali but using the Arabic, and not the Bengali, script.[79] Although subsequent writers made similar such literary attempts,[80] it is significant that the effort never took hold, with the result that Bengali Muslims remain today the world’s largest body of Muslims who, despite Islamization, have retained both their language and their script.[81]"*

Maqtul Husain - Muhammad Khan - Google Books
[Maqtul Husain. (Book) [WorldCat.org]
*"Details*
Named Person:Ḥusayn ibn ʻAlī
Document Type:Book
All Authors / Contributors:Muhammad Khan.; University of Dacca. Library.
OCLC Number:844601138
Description:v.
Responsibility:Within the frame work of the story of Karbala it gives an account of the history of the world from Prophet Muhammad to Doomsday. 1827] Microfilm (negative) of the original ms. 380 in Dacca University Library Dacca, University Library Photo-copying Service, 1968."

Muslim Bengali literature - Muhammad Enamul Haq - Google Books
A History of Chittagong: From ancient times down to 1761 - SunÄ«ti BhÅ«shaá¹a KÄnunago - Google Books
Bangladesh: Past and Present - Salahuddin Ahmed - Google Books
Constructing Bangladesh: Religion, Ethnicity, and Language in an Islamic ... - Sufia M. Uddin - Google Books

Banglapedia

*"Syed Sultan* (c 1550-1648) poet of medieval bangla literature, was a resident of Patiya village under Chakrashala Chakla in chittagong. He lived in Laskarpur (Paragalpur), Chittagong for some time. The name of his _pir_ was Syed Hasan. The poet himself later reached the status of a pir. *Muhammad Khan, author of the poetical work called Maktul Hussain, was his disciple.*

Sultan was noted as a composer of poems based on oral narratives or scriptures. He wrote several books, including nabi bangsha (Family of the Prophet)_, Jvanpradip_ (Light of knowledge)_, Jvanchautisha_, and _Jaikum Rajar Ladai _(Battle of King Jaikum). He composed some poems in couplets. His _Jnanchautisa_ is primarily an abridged version of _Jnanpradip_; both works deal with yoga and sufism. _Jaikum Rajar Ladai_ is based on the battle of a king.

His most noted work is _Nabi Bangsha_ and is based on _Kasasul Ambiya_ in Persian, and covers the entire range religions of history from genesis and is to the work and life of all the prophets tillhazrat muhammad (Sm). The work also includes some mythological deities in the lineage of prophets. But it professes the glory and greatness of islam and is a work of epic stature.

_Rasulcharita_, the second part of the _Nabi Bangsha_, is considered a separate work. It begins beginning with the doctrine of creation, moves on to the birth of Abdullah, his marriage, Amina’s pregnancy, attempt of abortion by Abu Jehel, and the birth and life of Hazrat Muhammad (Sm). The work contains both historical elements and writer’s own imaginings, being influenced by the society and culture of Bengal. _rasulbijay_ (15th century) by Jainuddin is the first work of this genre, followed by _Rasulcharita_. _Rasulcharita_ is the best work of biographical nature written in verse in the middle age. Although _Shab-e-Miraj _(The night of travel) and _Ofat-e-Rasul _(The death of the Prophet) are popularly known as two separate works, they are in fact part of _Rasulcharita_.

Sultan had a good command over Bangla and he could explain many difficult-to-understand aspects of Sufism and Islam lucidly. Edited by ahmed sharif, all his works including _Rasulcharita_ had been published in a book form (1978) by the bangla academy. [Khandker Muzammil Haq]"

Karim Sahityavisharad, Abdul | BanglaPedia : National Pedia of Bangladesh
*"Karim Sahityavisharad, Abdul*

*Karim Sahityavisharad, Abdul *(1871-1953) a litterateur, historian of Bangla literature and collector and interpreter of old Bangla manuscripts. Born in village Suchakradandi in Patiya Upazila within greater Chittagong, Abdul Karim Sahityavisharad passed his Entrance Examination in 1893 from Patiya High School. He served as a teacher in some schools, later joined the office of the Divisional Commissioner of Chittagong, and finally became Divisional Inspector of Schools. He retired in 1934. Abdul Karim started writing literary articles in early life. His literary pursuits drew the attention of contemporary literati.

His special interest was Muslim contribution to Bangla literature in the medieval period. Throughout his life he collected old Bangla manuscripts (called _puthis_). The_ Bongiya Sahitya Parisat_ published his catalogue of Bangla manuscripts entitled _Bangala Prachin Puthir Bivaran_ in two volumes in 1920-21. *The major portion of his manuscript collection, comprising works by Muslim poets, is preserved in the Dhaka University Library and the rest, written by Hindu poets, in the varendra research museum, Rajshahi.*





Abdul Karim Sahityavisharad

The Bengali department of Dhaka University has published a catalogue of the manuscripts preserved in the University Library under the title _Puthi Parichiti._ Abdul Karim himself edited and published eleven old Bangla texts; he also wrote a book on the history and culture of Chittagong, entitled _Islamabad_ and co-authored with Dr Muhammad Enamul Haq a book entitled _Arakan Rajsabhaya Bangla Sahitya_. All these are scholarly works. *His collection of manuscripts produced by Muslim poets indicates that the Muslim intellectuals of the medieval age had made great contributions to the development of Bangla literature. Some poets like daulat qazi, alaol, syed sultan, Muhamad Khan etc are rated among the greatest Bengali poets. Abdul Karim discovered about a hundred Muslim poets whose names and works were not known before.*

_Nadia Sahitya Sabha_ (Literary Association of Nadia) honored him with the title of _Sahitya Sagar_, while_Chattal Dharmamandali_ gave him the title of _Sahitya Visharad_. He always preferred the latter and used it with his name and is remembered by this singular title. [Abdul Karim]

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## Saiful Islam

kalu_miah said:


> The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204–1760
> 
> "Serving to check the growth of the “religion of the Book,” however, was the fact that the book in question, the Qur’an, was written in a language unknown to the masses of Bengali society. Moreover, since the Qur’an had been revealed in Arabic, in Bengal as elsewhere fear of tampering with the word of God inhibited its outright translation. As we have seen, Bengali Muslims were extremely reluctant to translate even Islamic popular lore into Bengali. *Of course, they could have done what many other non-Arab Muslims did—that is, retain their own language for written discourse but render it in the Arabic script, as happened in Iran (modern Persian) and North India (Urdu). The transliteration of any language into Arabic script not only facilitates the assimilation of Arabic vocabulary but fosters a psychological bond between non-Arab and Arab Muslims. In the seventeenth century, in fact, attempts were made to do the same for Bengali. The Dhaka Museum has a manuscript work composed in 1645 entitled Maqtul Husain—a tract treating the death of Husain at Karbala—written in Bengali but using the Arabic, and not the Bengali, script.[79] Although subsequent writers made similar such literary attempts,[80] it is significant that the effort never took hold, with the result that Bengali Muslims remain today the world’s largest body of Muslims who, despite Islamization, have retained both their language and their script.[81]"*
> 
> Maqtul Husain - Muhammad Khan - Google Books
> [Maqtul Husain. (Book) [WorldCat.org]
> *"Details*
> Named Person:Ḥusayn ibn ʻAlī
> Document Type:Book
> All Authors / Contributors:Muhammad Khan.; University of Dacca. Library.
> OCLC Number:844601138
> Description:v.
> Responsibility:Within the frame work of the story of Karbala it gives an account of the history of the world from Prophet Muhammad to Doomsday. 1827] Microfilm (negative) of the original ms. 380 in Dacca University Library Dacca, University Library Photo-copying Service, 1968."
> 
> Muslim Bengali literature - Muhammad Enamul Haq - Google Books
> A History of Chittagong: From ancient times down to 1761 - SunÄ«ti BhÅ«shaá¹a KÄnunago - Google Books
> Bangladesh: Past and Present - Salahuddin Ahmed - Google Books
> Constructing Bangladesh: Religion, Ethnicity, and Language in an Islamic ... - Sufia M. Uddin - Google Books
> 
> Banglapedia
> 
> *"Syed Sultan* (c 1550-1648) poet of medieval bangla literature, was a resident of Patiya village under Chakrashala Chakla in chittagong. He lived in Laskarpur (Paragalpur), Chittagong for some time. The name of his _pir_ was Syed Hasan. The poet himself later reached the status of a pir. *Muhammad Khan, author of the poetical work called Maktul Hussain, was his disciple.*
> 
> Sultan was noted as a composer of poems based on oral narratives or scriptures. He wrote several books, including nabi bangsha (Family of the Prophet)_, Jvanpradip_ (Light of knowledge)_, Jvanchautisha_, and _Jaikum Rajar Ladai _(Battle of King Jaikum). He composed some poems in couplets. His _Jnanchautisa_ is primarily an abridged version of _Jnanpradip_; both works deal with yoga and sufism. _Jaikum Rajar Ladai_ is based on the battle of a king.
> 
> His most noted work is _Nabi Bangsha_ and is based on _Kasasul Ambiya_ in Persian, and covers the entire range religions of history from genesis and is to the work and life of all the prophets tillhazrat muhammad (Sm). The work also includes some mythological deities in the lineage of prophets. But it professes the glory and greatness of islam and is a work of epic stature.
> 
> _Rasulcharita_, the second part of the _Nabi Bangsha_, is considered a separate work. It begins beginning with the doctrine of creation, moves on to the birth of Abdullah, his marriage, Amina’s pregnancy, attempt of abortion by Abu Jehel, and the birth and life of Hazrat Muhammad (Sm). The work contains both historical elements and writer’s own imaginings, being influenced by the society and culture of Bengal. _rasulbijay_ (15th century) by Jainuddin is the first work of this genre, followed by _Rasulcharita_. _Rasulcharita_ is the best work of biographical nature written in verse in the middle age. Although _Shab-e-Miraj _(The night of travel) and _Ofat-e-Rasul _(The death of the Prophet) are popularly known as two separate works, they are in fact part of _Rasulcharita_.
> 
> Sultan had a good command over Bangla and he could explain many difficult-to-understand aspects of Sufism and Islam lucidly. Edited by ahmed sharif, all his works including _Rasulcharita_ had been published in a book form (1978) by the bangla academy. [Khandker Muzammil Haq]"





Is it me or are the people on the internet not too well informed regarding Bangladesh's Islamic history (and general) and I'm talking about the non-Bangladeshis. I assume it has to be that because the things I see on forums not just this forum such as "Bangladesh did not under-go as much foreign invasion as other countries in the region", is this a true statement or is it incorrect? Sorry random question.

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## Joe Shearer

@Saiful Islam I think you are right and wrong together.

First, there is a much livelier understanding of the development of the Bengali language, and its literature, among two or three selected individuals than among the rest. These selected individuals have introduced a good amount of erudite information to the forum. The information from @kalu_miah in particular is outstanding.

Second, the answer to your question is contained in one of the books referred by @kalu_miah. If you read Eaton, your question about the invasions of Bangladesh will be answered in a fair amount of detail.

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## kalu_miah

Saiful Islam said:


> Is it me or are the people on the internet not too well informed regarding Bangladesh's Islamic history (and general) and I'm talking about the non-Bangladeshis. I assume it has to be that because the things I see on forums not just this forum such as "Bangladesh did not under-go as much foreign invasion as other countries in the region", is this a true statement or is it incorrect? Sorry random question.



Can you be a little more specific, I am not sure I understand the question.


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## kalu_miah

Ancient And Medieval History of Bangladesh - WikiEducator

Origin of Bengali Language and literature

The language of the original inhabitants of Bengal was Austric. This language gradually died away after the coming of the Aryans. The name of the language of the Aryans was Ancient Vedic Language. This was later reformed. The scholars turned the Vedic language into a language of literature. As the old language was reformed, this new language was named as the 'Sanskrit' language. Many are of opinion that the Bengali language originated from the Sanskrit language.

The modern scholars, however, have not accepted this view. In the ancient time, the common people did not use this language. Only the Brahmins used it. The name of the language of the common people was called 'Prakrita Bhasa'. As time passed, changes began to come over the language. It gained excellence and quality through the writing of books. Two languages were born of the 'Prakrita' language. One was 'Pali' and the other was 'Apabhransha'. The language of the common people, howerve, remained as 'Prakrita' language. Many new languages were bom in many states of Eastern India at that time. These originated from the 'Apabhrangsha' language. Our Bengali language was also born in this manner.

Sanskrit language has been used most in Bengal during the reigns of the Pala and the Sena dynasties. As a result Bengali language did not develop much during that time. The cultivation of the Bengali language increased later, in the Medieval Age. The language, too, developed a lot. During the period 1350 A. D-1800 A.D, Bengali poetry was compossed extensively by Hindu and Muslim poets. In the Age of the Muslims, Bengali language gradually secured a seat of its own under the generous patronization of the Sultans.



Rise and Development of Bengali literature
With the rise of the Bengali language, Bengali literature, too, developed. It was in the Medieval Age, that Bengali language truly found its expression. It was cultivated to some extent in the ancient times also. A collection of lyrical poems composed by the Buddhist Monks known as 'Charjapada' is supposed to be the earliest specimen of Bengali literature. The Buddhist Monks composed those poems during the reigns the Pala and the Sena kings. The period upto the twelfth century was known as the ancient period of Bengali literature. The Buddhist kings of the Pala dynasty patronized language, literature, art and culture. The 'Charjapada' began to be composed from that period. A Bengali book by the name 'Sadukti Karnamrita' was written in the ancient Bengal. There were names of one hundred and thirteen poets in the book. Most of them were Buddhists and the inhabitants of Bengal. Shridhar Das compiled the book. We can learn from the 'Charjapada' that chess was the most popular game in ancient Bengal. Mention of the 'Vina' (Indian lute) among the musical instruments is found in it. Marriage ceremonies were performed with great pomp. Women dreesed their hair into a knot at the back of the head men kept long curly hair hanging down to the neck. They used to wear coronet on the occasion of marriage.

The Sena kings, Vallala Sena and Lakshman Sena were themselves great scholars. Lakshman Sena revered the poets and scholars. However, most of the literary works at the time were written in Sanskrit.

Before the Muslim rule, Ramai Pundit composed a book of verses called 'Shunnya Purana'. The stories and hymns of Hindu Gods and Goddesses like Mansha, Shitala, Chandi, etc. were at the mouth of all and sundry. Although the journey of Bengali literature started in ancient Bengal, it found its true expression in the Medieval Age.



Social and Cultural Life in Medieval Bengal
The Medieval Age in Bengal began with the assumption of power by the Muslims. Before the advent of the Muslims, people belonging to the Hindu and the Buddhist religions lived in Bengal. The Muslims under the leadership of Bakhtiar Khalji entered Bengal as a royal power in the beginning of the thirteenth century. Even five to six hundred years before that the Arab Muslims who had come to do business were living on the coastal belt in Southeast Bengal. The Sufis and the Saints began to come to Bengal to preach Islam from the eleventh century. Many of the common Hindus and Buddhists embraced Islam at the time. Thus, gradually a Muslim social structure developed in Bengal. The Hindus and the Muslims lived side by side all over Bengal at the time. As a result, a sort of mixture began to take place between one another's thoughts and rituals. The culture which evolved in this way is called the Bengali culture.



Language and Literature
The Sufis and the Saints had an important role in the expansion of the Muslim society in Bengal. The abodes of the Sufis and the Saints were called 'Khankahs'. Along with the establishment of the 'Khankah' the Sufis also established almshouses, Maktabs, Madrashas. In fact, they created the proper atmosphere for the establishment of a Muslim society in Bengal. The deprived Hindus during the Sena period got the equal privilege of learning during the Muslim period. Hence, some Hindu writers emerged in the society during the Muslim period. For example 'Karcha', 'Naladamyanti Kavya', 'and 'Devayan Upakhyana' were written by goldsmith Govinda Das, barber Madhusudan and milkman Ram Narayan Gope respectively. The Hindus and the Muslims had good relations with each other in the Age of the Sultans. Many Hindus were appointed in high offices of the State. When Sree Chaitnya preached the new 'Vaishnaba' religion, he received no opposition from the Muslim Sultans.

The Sultans patronized the growth and expansion of the Bengali language and literature. In this respect the first name that can be mentioned is Giasuddin Azam Shah (1393 A.D-1411 A.D) of the Ilias Shah Dynasty. It was during his regin Shah Mohammad Sagir wrote his famous poem 'Yusuf-Zulekha'. Barbak Shah of the later Ilias Shahi Dynasty patronized Jashoraj Khan, composer of 'Sree Krishna Vijoy'. Alauddin Hussain Shah had a reputation for inspiring the cultivation of Bengali literature. He patronaged Maladhar Basu, Bipradasa, Vijayagupta and other poets. Sultan Nasiruddin Nusrat Shah also has reputation for such patronage. During his time Kavindra Parameswar translated Mahabharata in Bengali. The cultivation of not only Bengali, but also of Arabic and Persian works were widely preactised during the Sultanate period.

The Society of Bengal in the Mughal Period - WikiEducator

Education and Literature

In the Mughal Age too, like the Age of the Sultans, there was a remarkable Development in education and literature. The employees recruited in the period were highly educated. They had great passion for learning. People of different professions like poets, teachers, doctors, etc. came with them. Consequently, their influence and endeavours greatly helped the advancement of education in Bengal. The Revenue Minister Raja Todarmal of Emperor Akbar introduced Persian language in government offices. Akbar helped a lot for the spread of education. For this reason the language and literature developed considerably in Bengal durin the Mughal period.

Both the Hindus and Muslims learnt Persian to get government jobs. These Persian knowing officials were called 'Munshis'. The books of the famous Persian poet Sheikh Saadi were very popular in this country at that time. The Nawabs and Subadars like Kasim Khan, Shah Shuja, Mir Jumla, Shayesta Khan and Murshid Kuli Khan worked a lot to develop the Persian language.

The influence of the Persian language on Bengali literature during the Mughal period can very well be observed. Persian is an affluent language. When the influence of a rich language falls on another language, the grandeur of the latter is enhanced. The same happened in the case of the Bengali language too. The Bengali language began to brighten in following the subject and style of the Persian language. Gradually the use of Persian words in Bangla began to increase. The Bengali Muslims began to introduce ideas and thoughts of Persian literature in their poems. Gazals and Sufi literature began to be evolved bearing likeness to Persian literature. The Hindu poets were inspired by the Sanskrit literature instead of Persian. Nevertheless, many of them could not avoid the Persian influence. The Vaishmava Padabali was composed following the Persian style. The influence of the Persian literature can be observed in the writing of the authors like Bharata Chandra Raigunakar, etc. The Baul songs developed in Bengal during the Mughal rule. The poets at that time composed mourning songs of the Muharram also.


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## MilSpec

^^So when are you guys changing to arabic?


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## kalu_miah

Sylheti Nagri:
Endangered Archives Programme: Item Overview

Puthi collection:
Guardian of a lost art | Dhaka Tribune

*Guardian of a lost art *
*Faisal Mahmud Weekend*
*Faisal Mahmud writes about our poetic heritage*




































PrevNext
By day, Abu Bakar Siddique is a music producer for Bangladesh Betar. He has to write music for at least 10 songs per week. “Creating music for a lyric is hard, and an artist can never get satisfaction if he has to create music under a deadline,” says Siddique. “But that’s a part of my job.”

By night however, he indulges his creative self. In a small music studio in the corner of his house in Shyamoli, he practises, researches and creates music for a glorious, almost-lost art of Bengal: puthipaath.

“Only a hundred years ago, puthipaath was the main source of entertainment for the people of rural Bengal, along with palagaan and kiccha kahinir ashor. Now it has almost become obsolete. A very few people, like me, still bear the torch for it,” he said.

Before I met Abu Bakar Siddique, I knew very little about puthi. But one night at a poetry reading, I was about to leave early after averse overdose, eager to grab a cup of coffee, but my plans changes as soon as Siddique’s mellifluous voice started his puthipaath. It was rhythmic and full of story.
I was instantly hooked.

*A family affair*
“It’s hard to understand the magic of puthipaath by sitting in a room amid the concrete jungle,” Siddique tells me. “Just think of the context: It’s a spring night under a banyan tree in some village without electricity, a group of simple, guileless villagers ready to be charmed by the two bards.”
Siddique talked about growing up during a time when people would take pleasure in simpler things. “It was in the 60s, and a village in Tangail district couldn’t offer much to entertain rather than puthipaath.”

He has been involved with puthipaath since childhood. “My village is in Sakhipur, Tangail, an area with rich cultural heritage. During my childhood, I saw my uncle reciting puthi everyday. My father also recited puthi.”

That image is etched in his mind. “I used to participate as an assistant, reciting and playing the percussion, in the village gathering where my uncle performed puthi. He was a famous bard of the area. A group of village bauls provided background music. Since then, I developed a great affection for it.
Later he did a Master’s degree in Bangla literature from Dhaka University (DU), where he conducted research on puthi.

*Passion as profession*
Siddique was drawn into the profession of music since his student years in DU. At that time, he was mainly singing the folk songs of Abbas Uddin and Abdul Alim.
In 1984, Siddique was enlisted by BTV and Bangladesh Betar as a music composer and artist, where he met Abdul Latif.
“The thought of puthipaath flickered in my mind again when I met Latif. He revived the practice of puthipaath in the modern era. Also an enlisted artist and composer for BTV and Bangladesh Betar, Abdul Latif started creating music for puthi. I started working with him on it. Later I pursued a Master’s degree on it and conducted research on puthipaath.”
After completing his Master’s, he enrolled at the government music college in Agargaon and did a Bachelor’s in music. He then went to Medinipur in India and did another Master’s in music. His core focus at that Master’s program was Bangali folklore.

“I particularly focused on puthi. My uncle had lots of ancient puthi but I didn’t store those. I have only a few of those,” he said.
He has participated in several research workshops on puthi conducted by Bangla Academy.
“The pioneer in puthi research in Bangladesh is of course Abdul Karim Sahitya Bisharad. He has done a colossal amount of work in that regard.”
Siddique has been able to successfully provide music to many puthis. “But the problem is, with the advent of Western and other music, people of this generation have started to lose interest in this rich part of our folklore.”

*What is puthipaath?*
“Puthi represents the poetic part of ancient Bangla literature,” Siddique said, “while folklore represents mostly the narrative part of ancient Bangla literature.”
Wikipedia describes the puthi as: “A book of poetic fairy tales and religious stories of rural ancient Bengal which were read by a senior ‘educated’ person while others would listen. This was used as a medium for education and constructive entertainment.”

The word “puthi” means book. Puthis are ancient manuscripts, whose pages could be leaves, sheets of wood, or old papers. Usually, they were written on one side and bound with a piece of string.

“To understand the context of puthi, you have to go back to the medieval age of Bangla literature. In that time, in rural villages in Bengal, two bards would stand in front of each other and engage in an impromptu musical debate.”

Siddique said the bards would conduct these debates in poetic manner with a certain rhythm. “The bards had a number of disciples who, during such debates, took notes and later converted those into books. The concept of ‘puthi’ was born in that manner.”

“In Bengal,” Siddique said “these books were different and unlike other books at that time. Writers, or ‘munshis,’ wrote in Sanskrit, Bangla, or local dialects.”

*A product of Muslim literature*
Puthis were also part of Muslim revolution in arts and literature in the subcontinent. “Puthipaath was a way to spread messages about Islam in the form of entertainment. Various Sufis used to do that,” said Siddique.

The Indian subcontinent was mainly inhabited by Hindus. Sufis and Bauls, who came to the subcontinent from Persia, found it effective to spread the messages of Islam through songs and poetry. “Such practice was very common in Persia at that time.”
Siddique told me about Abdul Karim Sahitya Bisharad, who collected more than 2,000 puthis. More than 1,000 of them were written by Bangali Muslims. “Such findings prove that Muslim were at the forefront of producing puthis.”

The most ancient types of Bangla literature are Chorjapod, Shunnopuran and Srikrishnapuran. “These are basically puthi,” says Siddique. “The literature that got recognition in the court of Muslim Sultans of Gauda was all puthi.”
After the Sultani era in Bengal, literary works by Mohammad Khan, Alaol, Doulat Uzir Bahram Khan, Shah Mohammad Sagir, Shah Mohammad Garibullah in the post-Mughal period were also referred as puthis.

*Language of its time*
Originally, most puthis were written in Sanskrit. But during the Sultani era, many Persian and Arabic words were made into the puthis. “Sanskrit was a tough language. In Hindu dominant societies, only people from higher castes were allowed to communicate in that language, and it became unpopular among the common people. So puthi writers started to prefer writing puthis with a concocted language comprised of Persian, Arabic and Bangla.”

Shah Mohammad Garibullah should be given a special credit for popularising puthis written in that concocted language. In his Amir Hamza, Garibullah included colloquial words of contemporary society, a revolutionary practice in that time.

Later in the 19th century, Saidur Rahman Boyati of Manikganj and Helim Boyati of Netrokona started writing puthis in their local dialect.



sandy_3126 said:


> ^^So when are you guys changing to arabic?



That will depend on language researchers in Bangladesh, who are experts on the subject and how they recommend. We are just presenting ideas and historical facts, opening them up for debate. If it was up to me, I would introduce both English and Nastaliq script in addition to current Brahmi derived script. English will definitely become popular and Nastaliq may become popular with religious folks. So adoption will depend on future generations of Bangladeshi people, after the two additional scripts are introduced.

In post #542, you will find one book Maqtul Husain was written by Muhammad Khan of present day Chittagong in 1645, in the Bangla language of that era but entirely in Arabic script. So it is not something new.

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## MilSpec

kalu_miah said:


> Sylheti Nagri:
> 
> 
> That will depend on language researchers in Bangladesh, who are experts on the subject and how they recommend. We are just presenting ideas and historical facts, opening them up for debate. If it was up to me, I would introduce both English and Nastaliq script in addition to current Brahmi derived script. English will definitely become popular and Nastaliq may become popular with religious folks. So adoption will depend on future generations of Bangladeshi people, after the two additional scripts are introduced.
> 
> In post #542, you will find one book Maqtul Husain was written by Muhammad Khan of present day Chittagong in 1645, in the Bangla language of that era but entirely in Arabic script. So it is not something new.



With the same school of thought why even retain bangla, if such generation reform is up for debate, why not switch to Arabic completely...

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## khair_ctg

UDAYCAMPUS said:


> For Indian muslims nation come first
> 
> 
> 
> urdu is not ur mother tongue u dimwit ofcourse i can exclude them...if u guys had all moved to farsi and arabic by now i would have had no say in this matter but as u are not then it is an issue ....AND BY SAYING THAT YOU CANNOT EXCLUDE URDU for Allahs sake urdu of all languages,the language against *u guys fought to save bengali in 1971* shows how much your mindset and nationalism has degraded


i was not surprised by this muck in bold from a person of UDAYCAMPUS' background. i will just ignore the dimwit bit for the same reason as such a tone has been utterly commonplace towards any idea with a "Muslim" flavour. i was a bit positively surprised at the commentary by @Joe Shearer on my "repertory" considering his same background - anyways i am just doing some light leg pulling


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## Joe Shearer

I understand what is 'light leg pulling'; this is not an example of that.

We know little or nothing about each other's background on an anonymous forum. All that we have to go by is the contributions that we make. I judge others, you included, on that basis. How nice it would be to get similar courtesy, instead of the communal (and therefore offensive) insinuations that I got simply because I made an objective assessment of your own contribution.


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## khair_ctg

Joe Shearer said:


> I understand what is 'light leg pulling'; this is not an example of that.
> 
> We know little or nothing about each other's background on an anonymous forum. All that we have to go by is the contributions that we make. I judge others, you included, on that basis. How nice it would be to get similar courtesy, instead of the communal (and therefore offensive) insinuations that I got simply because I made an objective assessment of your own contribution.


you cannot get a more perfect example than that. 

an objective assessment. that is new for me. get over it


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## khair_ctg

kalu_miah said:


> Since the handing over of power in 1947 there has been in East Pakistan a growing tendency to absorb words of Perso-Arabic origin in large numbers through Urdu, as a result of cultural and political contact with West Pakistan.
> 
> 
> (M. Abdul Hai)





kalu_miah said:


> *Most of Abdul Karim's essays on medieval Bengali literature start with a complaint regarding the neglect of scholars and more generally of the Bengali cultural elite for the texts composed by Muslim authors during the medieval period. Indeed, Harprasada Shastri (1853-1931), Dinesh Chandra Sen (1866-1939) and Nagendranath Vasu (1866-1938), who were the pioneers in the field of study and edition of medieval Bengali manuscripts, were all Hindus. Abdul Karim considered unfair the responsibility and the means given by the British to Hindu scholars to work on Sanskrit and Bengali Hindu texts and saw the dissolution of Muslim Bengali literature partly as a result of this phenomenon. The competition and the need to rehabilitate "Muslim literature" is omnipresent in his texts 25. This Hindu / Muslim dichotomy goes with another dichotomy West/Est Bengal: the Western part being the cradle of important Hindu movements such as Caitanism and the Eastern part, especially Chittagong, being the so called original center of Bengali Muslim culture 26.*



thanks for sharing these. the bottom quote discusses greatly the neglect that Muslim mediums got during colonial period in the development of Bengali language. [i just noticed i used the wrong paragraph in the quote. now it's corrected. apologies]

the above quote is interesting. around Partition time, even though many north Indian migrants and some West Pakistanis joined the East Bengal population that already had some practise of Urdu from before, i think Urdu's impact on Bengali Muslim started to become less and less right since that time. thanks to anxieties raised by the zealots trying to make even an issue out of Bengali's not given national language status. it was A) a provincial language and B) officially in a state a Muslim could consider foreign to him.

my commentary is that whatever Persian-Arabic (re)infusion in Bengali that took place post-Partition was largely overwhelmed by many Muslims' closer association with the Calcutta literary traditions than ever before since colonial period.

and the need for Persian-Arabic re-infusion into Bengali had a perfectly native rationale for the Bengali Muslims, even if the level of interaction with non-Bengali Muslims haven't change at all after Partition.


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## kalu_miah

sandy_3126 said:


> With the same school of thought why even retain bangla, if such generation reform is up for debate, why not switch to Arabic completely...



How did you get think tank status? Try to ask a more intelligent question next time. Obviously you are not following the discussion here at all and I doubt you read any of the posts.


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## M.M.Ali

The Snow Queen said:


> Who is Mahmud Ali?
> 
> But Urdu and all that stuff is not coming back and is in the past. Now we have to move forward and make our Bangla more Islamidised.




Mahmud Ali was a Bengali-Assamese politician in British India, in East Bengal/East Pakistan, and then in modern Pakistan. He was the secretary-general of the All-India Muslim League (Assam) with Bhashani as its president. During the Freedom Movement he worked towards making Assam a part of the eastern wing of Pakistan but a referendum was not giving in the province. He later concentrated his efforts to make Sylhet a part of Pakistan and the referendum was a success..After the creation of Pakistan, and after Jinnah and Liaquat passed away, he left the Muslim League as he saw the government drifting away from the needs of the people. He then founded Pakistan's first secular political party the Ganatantri Dal. The Dal demanded equal rights for all citizens regardless of their religion, abolition of feudalism, rights for women, and the demand for Bangla as a national language along with Urdu. He also published a Bangla language newspaper the Nao Belal which played an important role in propagating Bengali rights. The Dal later merged with the United Front and it won the elections defeating the Muslim League in 1954. He was the sole member of the assembly to speak out against the 'One-Unit' scheme which divided Pakistan into two provinces - East and West Pakistan. After Ayub Khan and the bureacracy imposed military rule in 1958 he spent the next decade fighting for the restoration on parliamentary democracy. He also supported Miss Jinnah in the Presidential elections against Ayub. Ali believed that Bengalis were more politically advanced and wanted a united Pakistan where Bengalis would guide the country with their majority and often said that "the western provinces need Bengal politically and Bengal needs the western provinces economically." He did not approve of Mujib's politics but argued for his release after the Fall of Dacca.

Bangla Language and Script

Mahmud Ali was strongly against any effort to impose Arabic as a language in Pakistan, and did not favour any attempt to change or "Islamasize" the language.

I'm of the same opinion. I think it betrays a degree of insecurity and an inferiority complex when speaking in favour of this absurd change. Also, those advocating the adoption of the Arabic/Farsi script are undermining both their culture and heritage, and the tolerant nature of Islam. Do we hear of Indonesians or Malaysians arguing in favour of this?

Another thing I don't understand is this half-baked attempt to adopt something which religion has nothing to do with. I mean why just change the script? Is the language itself not Indo-Aryan? Either way, I think this childish idea should be tossed away.

Arabic has nothing to do with Islam itself.

Lastly, just in case you were wondering, I'm an ethnic Bengali who grew up in Pakistan.

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## kalu_miah

M.M.Ali said:


> Mahmud Ali was a Bengali-Assamese politician in British India, in East Bengal/East Pakistan, and then in modern Pakistan. He was the secretary-general of the All-India Muslim League (Assam) with Bhashani as its president. During the Freedom Movement he worked towards making Assam a part of the eastern wing of Pakistan but a referendum was not giving in the province. He later concentrated his efforts to make Sylhet a part of Pakistan and the referendum was a success..After the creation of Pakistan, and after Jinnah and Liaquat passed away, he left the Muslim League as he saw the government drifting away from the needs of the people. He then founded Pakistan's first secular political party the Ganatantri Dal. The Dal demanded equal rights for all citizens regardless of their religion, abolition of feudalism, rights for women, and the demand for Bangla as a national language along with Urdu. He also published a Bangla language newspaper the Nao Belal which played an important role in propagating Bengali rights. The Dal later merged with the United Front and it won the elections defeating the Muslim League in 1954. He was the sole member of the assembly to speak out against the 'One-Unit' scheme which divided Pakistan into two provinces - East and West Pakistan. After Ayub Khan and the bureacracy imposed military rule in 1958 he spent the next decade fighting for the restoration on parliamentary democracy. He also supported Miss Jinnah in the Presidential elections against Ayub. Ali believed that Bengalis were more politically advanced and wanted a united Pakistan where Bengalis would guide the country with their majority and often said that "the western provinces need Bengal politically and Bengal needs the western provinces economically." He did not approve of Mujib's politics but argued for his release after the Fall of Dacca.
> 
> Bangla Language and Script
> 
> Mahmud Ali was strongly against any effort to impose Arabic as a language in Pakistan, and did not favour any attempt to change or "Islamasize" the language.
> 
> I'm of the same opinion. I think it betrays a degree of insecurity and an inferiority complex when speaking in favour of this absurd change. Also, those advocating the adoption of the Arabic/Farsi script are undermining both their culture and heritage, and the tolerant nature of Islam. Do we hear of Indonesians or Malaysians arguing in favour of this?
> 
> Another thing I don't understand is this half-baked attempt to adopt something which religion has nothing to do with. I mean why just change the script? Is the language itself not Indo-Aryan? Either way, I think this childish idea should be tossed away.
> 
> Arabic has nothing to do with Islam itself.
> 
> Lastly, just in case you were wondering, I'm an ethnic Bengali who grew up in Pakistan.



If I may ask a question, have you lived in Bangladesh or East Pakistan for extended time, other than short visits, if any?


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## kalu_miah

khair_ctg said:


> you cannot get a more perfect example than that.
> 
> an objective assessment. that is new for me. get over it



Khair Bhai, courtesy is not too much to ask I think, the gentlemen has been following this thread with interest and seems to have a genuine interest in history, why not give him the benefit of doubt?


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## M.M.Ali

kalu_miah said:


> If I may ask a question, have you lived in Bangladesh or East Pakistan for extended time, other than short visits, if any?



I haven't. It was already Bangladesh when I was born.

I grew up in Europe and Pakistan, and now I'm studying South Asian history and politics in the US. However, my family is Bengali, and were involved in the Freedom Movement and Bengali-Pakistani politics. The person I mentioned in my previous post was my grandfather.

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## kalu_miah

M.M.Ali said:


> I haven't. It was already Bangladesh when I was born.
> 
> I grew up in Europe and Pakistan, and now I'm studying South Asian history and politics in the US. However, my family is Bengali, and were involved in the Freedom Movement and Bengali-Pakistani politics. The person I mentioned in my previous post was my grandfather.



Thanks for telling us. Pleasure to make your acquaintance here. Welcome to the forum.

I found the following about your grand father Mahmud Ali:
Mahmud Ali (statesman) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Grande Strategy
Veteran leader Mahmud Ali passes away - Newspaper - DAWN.COM

Definitely he had an admirable political career. His role in Sylhet referendum was a valuable contribution to Bangladeshi people. Apparently he tried to do a lot of good for people in his career. And till the end he was loyal to Pakistan, a quality I also admire. My deep respects to your grand father for all that he has done for our people and country.

As for the script change, everyone has their opinion and I think we should respect people's opinion, whatever they may be.

About the script in Malaysia and Indonesia, they are currently using English or Latin/Roman alphabet with some modification since colonial times:
Malay alphabet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Previously in this region Arabic alphabet was being used for Malay language since the introduction of Islam, before it was replaced by colonial rulers:
Jawi alphabet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is still widely used in Malay speaking areas of Malaysia and Indonesia.


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## Varunastra

khair_ctg said:


> i was not surprised by this muck in bold from a person of UDAYCAMPUS' background. i will just ignore the dimwit bit for the same reason as such a tone has been utterly commonplace towards any idea with a "Muslim" flavour. i was a bit positively surprised at the commentary by @Joe Shearer on my "repertory" considering his same background - anyways i am just doing some light leg pulling


 so 1971 war was not fought to save the bengali culture and language?was that not the main reason?


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## Azizam

Hashshāshīn said:


> Coming from a Sri Lankan, the ugliest people on Earth


LOL Who the **** is this prince?

BTW post your pic and impress me Mr.Universe.


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## Hashshāshīn

Azizam said:


> LOL Who the **** is this prince?
> 
> BTW post your pic and impress me Mr.Universe.


You can rest assured I look better than ape resembling swarthy Srilankans







And you were talking about complexes

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## Azizam

Hashshāshīn said:


> You can rest assured I look better than ape resembling swarthy Srilankans
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And you were talking about complexes



That's a person belonged to a minority bro. One does not simply base stereotypes of a country based on minorities bro.

Again where's your picture? I really want to see you prince.

By the way, where are you from? As I recall some African country.

Why are you so butthurt about my post? It seems you are another wannabe-Middle Eastern.


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## khair_ctg

UDAYCAMPUS said:


> so 1971 war was not fought to save the bengali culture and language?was that not the main reason?


not even close 



kalu_miah said:


> Khair Bhai, courtesy is not too much to ask I think, the gentlemen has been following this thread with interest and seems to have a genuine interest in history, why not give him the benefit of doubt?


i'm really not aware if i'm sounding more hostile than i am in this case. i welcome @Joe Shearer 's contribution and participation in the discussion. it's just an observation that this level of objective discussion has been rare for me, with UDAYCAMPUS proving my point with his posts. be assured there is no grudge held against Joe Shearer or anyone like him

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## M.M.Ali

kalu_miah said:


> Thanks for telling us. Pleasure to make your acquaintance here. Welcome to the forum.
> 
> I found the following about your grand father Mahmud Ali:
> Mahmud Ali (statesman) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Grande Strategy
> Veteran leader Mahmud Ali passes away - Newspaper - DAWN
> 
> Definitely he had an admirable political career. His role in Sylhet referendum was a valuable contribution to Bangladeshi people. Apparently he tried to do a lot of good for people in his career. And till the end he was loyal to Pakistan, a quality I also admire. My deep respects to your grand father for all that he has done for our people and country.
> 
> As for the script change, everyone has their opinion and I think we should respect people's opinion, whatever they may be.
> 
> About the script in Malaysia and Indonesia, they are currently using English or Latin/Roman alphabet with some modification since colonial times:
> Malay alphabet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Previously in this region Arabic alphabet was being used for Malay language since the introduction of Islam, before it was replaced by colonial rulers:
> Jawi alphabet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> It is still widely used in Malay speaking areas of Malaysia and Indonesia.



Thank you, I'm glad to be part of this discussion.

I stand corrected, I was wrong about the script. And yes, I do believe that people have a right to their own opinion. However, I still hold that religion is not bound by language and script. Arabic itself is not a Islamic language and there is no reason to adopt its script. I believe that Islam is a tolerant religion that embraces diversity. We should accept who we are while still identifying with whatever religion we may belong to. Also, there are many non-Muslims who may belong to a particular ethnicity and it would be unfair to try and impose something they may not be in favour of.

By the way, if you're interested here's one of my grandfather's last interviews before his death. I can't post links yet, but the video is titled "GEO Jawab Deyh - Mahmud Ali interview (August, 2006)" on YouTube.

00:42 Assam and Sylhet Referendum
04:12 Bangla Language Movement
08:08 21 Points, 1954 Elections and Ayub Era
23:28 1970 Elections and 1971 War
30:25 Mujib Trial and separation of Bangladesh

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## M.M.Ali

UDAYCAMPUS said:


> so 1971 war was not fought to save the bengali culture and language?was that not the main reason?



Bangla was already a national language along with Urdu in 1954. The independence movement was primarily about politics and economics. Mujib won the 1970 elections and was declared Prime Minister Designate. The assembly was not allowed to convene in March 1971 and this lead to riots all across united Pakistan.


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## khair_ctg

M.M.Ali said:


> Mahmud Ali was a Bengali-Assamese politician in British India, in East Bengal/East Pakistan, and then in modern Pakistan. He was the secretary-general of the All-India Muslim League (Assam) with Bhashani as its president. During the Freedom Movement he worked towards making Assam a part of the eastern wing of Pakistan but a referendum was not giving in the province. He later concentrated his efforts to make Sylhet a part of Pakistan and the referendum was a success..After the creation of Pakistan, and after Jinnah and Liaquat passed away, he left the Muslim League as he saw the government drifting away from the needs of the people. He then founded Pakistan's first secular political party the Ganatantri Dal. The Dal demanded equal rights for all citizens regardless of their religion, abolition of feudalism, rights for women, and the demand for Bangla as a national language along with Urdu. He also published a Bangla language newspaper the Nao Belal which played an important role in propagating Bengali rights. The Dal later merged with the United Front and it won the elections defeating the Muslim League in 1954. He was the sole member of the assembly to speak out against the 'One-Unit' scheme which divided Pakistan into two provinces - East and West Pakistan. After Ayub Khan and the bureacracy imposed military rule in 1958 he spent the next decade fighting for the restoration on parliamentary democracy. He also supported Miss Jinnah in the Presidential elections against Ayub. Ali believed that Bengalis were more politically advanced and wanted a united Pakistan where Bengalis would guide the country with their majority and often said that "the western provinces need Bengal politically and Bengal needs the western provinces economically." He did not approve of Mujib's politics but argued for his release after the Fall of Dacca.
> 
> Bangla Language and Script
> 
> Mahmud Ali was strongly against any effort to impose Arabic as a language in Pakistan, and did not favour any attempt to change or "Islamasize" the language.
> 
> I'm of the same opinion. I think it betrays a degree of insecurity and an inferiority complex when speaking in favour of this absurd change. Also, those advocating the adoption of the Arabic/Farsi script are undermining both their culture and heritage, and the tolerant nature of Islam. Do we hear of Indonesians or Malaysians arguing in favour of this?
> 
> Another thing I don't understand is this half-baked attempt to adopt something which religion has nothing to do with. I mean why just change the script? Is the language itself not Indo-Aryan? Either way, I think this childish idea should be tossed away.
> 
> Arabic has nothing to do with Islam itself.
> 
> Lastly, just in case you were wondering, I'm an ethnic Bengali who grew up in Pakistan.


i appreciate your presence in this discussion. when we are discussing changing of scripts, the issue of official patronage of at least a parallel script for bengali is implied. how about unofficial use of the persian-arabic script for bangla? isn’t it as old as bengal’s muslim community itself? what part of persian-arabic scripts “undermine culture and heritage” - when not only persian-urdu-arabic were used as separate languages (arabic for recital purposes) but the persian-arabic script was used for bengali as well? in this light how sensible was protesting the re-infusion of these muslim mediums since getting dropped in the brahmin renaissance era development of the official bangla?

there is a wealth of information available outside and on this forum. @kalu_mian has provided information here commendably.

since indonesians and malaysians were stated rhetorically in your statement, did they have practise of farsi as an official language and urdu for centuries? they did not; however they had their native jawi written in arabic script. would you call their entire older generations arab wannabes, for practicing their language which happened to be in arabic script? would you call themselves arab wannabes if they still practise that language?

this discussion does not concern facts like that Quran was revealed in arabic. and this discussion does not even warrant discussing whether non-arabic languages are non-Islamic or whether non-arabic script is non-Islamic (the answer is of course no).


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## Joe Shearer

khair_ctg said:


> i appreciate your presence in this discussion. when we are discussing changing of scripts, the issue of official patronage of at least a parallel script for bengali is implied. how about unofficial use of the persian-arabic script for bangla? isn’t it as old as bengal’s muslim community itself? what part of persian-arabic scripts “undermine culture and heritage” - when not only persian-urdu-arabic were used as separate languages (arabic for recital purposes) but the pecrsian-arabic script was used for bengali as well? in this light how sensible was protesting the re-infusion of these muslim mediums since getting dropped in the brahmin renaissance era development of the official bangla?
> 
> there is a wealth of information available outside and on this forum. @kalu_miah has provided information here commendably.



Unofficial use of the Persian-Arabic script for Bangla: 
_
The sources cited in this thread*** uniformly inform us that such a script was tried again and again, and failed to take hold._
Isn't it as old as Bengal's Muslim community itself? 
_
The same sources cited*** above inform us that these efforts were made occasionally, sporadically, at the outset, when the first rule of the Delhi Sultanate started, with no success. _
what part of persian-arabic scripts “undermine culture and heritage” - when not only persian-urdu-arabic were used as separate languages (arabic for recital purposes) but the persian-arabic script was used for bengali as well? 
_
Please see the points above. Musulmani Bangla was a reaction to the artificial Sanskritisation of the language by Halhed and his Brahmin advisors at the Fort William college. The language that existed prior to this artificial Sanskritisation contained a significant borrowing of Persian and Arabic loan words; however, at the time of the reaction, there was a swing to the other extreme, and even more Persian and Arabic words were introduced than were prevalent before._
in this light how sensible was protesting the re-infusion of these muslim mediums since getting dropped in the brahmin renaissance era development of the official bangla?

_The dropping was of words, the vocabulary was affected, and not the script._
The sources provided have been cited by me***, in this forum, *extensively*. Please read the citations. All your assertions are amply discussed there. It is sad that these points are being made again and again, in the teeth of the evidence quoted by you yourselves.
____________________________________________________________________________
** *My extensive citations started on page 29 of this thread, and continued. Please refer to those.
____________________________________________________________________________


khair_ctg said:


> since indonesians and malaysians were stated rhetorically in your statement, did they have practise of farsi as an official language and urdu for centuries? they did not; however they had their native jawi written in arabic script. would you call their entire older generations arab wannabes, for practicing their language which happened to be in arabic script? would you call themselves arab wannabes if they still practise that language?
> 
> this discussion does not concern facts like that Quran was revealed in arabic. and this discussion does not even warrant discussing whether non-arabic languages are non-Islamic or whether non-arabic script is non-Islamic (the answer is of course no).



No comment.


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## Joe Shearer

khair_ctg said:


> the Muslim community as whole in South Asia is as much a racial community as it is a religious community. religion/faith is not the only thing that separates the Muslims from the non-Muslims of South Asia. the converts and the settlers (who converted at another place) have mixed up in the melting pot called the South Asian Muslims. and so whether you are talking about the nastaliq-Punjabi, or subcontinental Farsi, or even a nastaliq-Bangla, they would all contain the influences that culminated into the South Asian Muslim community.



Eaton's research indicates that the preponderance of Muslims in Bengal at least was not due to migration, but to a demographic explosion linked to the rapid expansion of agriculture in east Bengal.

He has clearly established that efforts at using a different script _had not_ succeeded in the early stages of Muslim rule of Bengal.

He has clearly differentiated the South Asian Muslims in general from the Bengali Muslims



> an Urdu language for example would not exist if it was not for the Sanskrit heritage and the organic fusion of the cultures of the settlers and the converts (so i'm not saying it was only settlers who formed the Muslim community like it happened with European settlers in the New World).
> 
> what has also happened, as it has happened throughout world history, a high culture is more inclusive and takes the place of more fragmented or underdeveloped ones. this was seen when a lot of the Mughals and Pathans practised the more sophisticated Farsi in more formal contexts over their various Turkic languages and dialects from Central Asia.
> 
> in Bengal, after colonialism started, Farsi was politically displaced. and it existed rather informally within the Muslims. if you are discussing about Bengali Muslims, you cannot attempt to exterminate the Farsi and Urdu and Arabic languages. if you are, you are just isolating and ignoring the Bengali Muslim heritage. just like the Hindu-Brahmin intelligentsia was when they gained sole power to develop the current Bengali script and to call what is official Bengali language



The point has been made again and again (by researchers, in scholarly analysis, not by me) that the attempted amalgamations failed initially, that they got another opportunity during the Mughal period, that the language contained a lot of Persian and Arabic loan words, without any evidence of the use of the script, and that it was the generations of the late 19th century and the early 20th century which took up Urdu and Farsi once more, including the script, as a reaction to the Sanskritisation of Bengali by Halhed and his assistant pundits of the Fort William College.

The extensive use of Urdu and Farsi, to a much greater extent than earlier prevalent, was dated then from the last few generations only.


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## khair_ctg

Joe Shearer said:


> Eaton's research indicates that *the preponderance of Muslims in Bengal at least was not due to migration*, but to a demographic explosion linked to the rapid expansion of agriculture in east Bengal.


_What one finds, rather, is an expanding agrarian civilization, whose
cultural counterpart was the growth of the cult of Allah. This larger movement was composed of several
interwoven processes: the eastward movement and settlement of colonizers from points west, the
incorporation of frontier tribal peoples into the expanding agrarian civilization, and the natural population
growth that accompanied the diffusion or the intensification of wet rice agriculture and the production of
surplus food grains. _{Eaton}

the preponderance of Muslims in Bengal is attributed to migration, incorporating indigenous people into the expanding civilization, and natural population growth supported by the resources available. what makes you leave migration out?


Joe Shearer said:


> He has clearly established that efforts at using a different script _had not_ succeeded in the early stages of Muslim rule of Bengal.


what made them "not succeed"? is it the innate difficultly of doing that, that was not the case with say Persian or Punjabi? there is no reason to ponder whether *some* Bengali was written in Persian-Arabic script, iwo in a script that a settler "ashraf" could read and in a sound an indigenous "atrap" could understand. but one of the instances when there was some kind of official backing to standardize it was in the 1600s and an example of such work was by writer Mohammad Khan on Hussein (ra) as referenced from BD Encyclopedia. do you consider similar works a failure? if you say so, because of lesser prevalence later on compared to the Hindus' Bengali, i would agree.


Joe Shearer said:


> He has clearly differentiated the South Asian Muslims in general from the Bengali Muslims


Yes, the entire book of Eaton's "The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier" studies Muslim civilization of Bengal in separation. the large population of Muslim Bengal for example is an important point of study. however the parallels with other Mughal/Islamicate centres of influence of the subcontinent, like Avadh and Punjab, and even Maharashtra, were discussed in how Mughal/Islamicate influence grew even when in independence from the imperial administration in northern India (Delhi and so on)

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## Joe Shearer

khair_ctg said:


> _What one finds, rather, is an expanding agrarian civilization, whose
> cultural counterpart was the growth of the cult of Allah. This larger movement was composed of several
> interwoven processes: the eastward movement and settlement of colonizers from points west, the
> incorporation of frontier tribal peoples into the expanding agrarian civilization, and the natural population
> growth that accompanied the diffusion or the intensification of wet rice agriculture and the production of
> surplus food grains. _{Eaton}
> 
> the preponderance of Muslims in Bengal is attributed to migration, incorporating indigenous people into the expanding civilization, and natural population growth supported by the resources available. what makes you leave migration out?



I am separating your three points for convenience.

Here the difference between the conventional 'Migration' theory used to account for the huge preponderance of Muslims in the east of Bengal and what Eaton is referring to is that the conventional theory relates to supposed mass migration from central Asia and from Afghanistan. This does not seem to have happened in Bengal.

Instead, what Eaton is clearly referring to, in the context of his passage, is migration from the western parts of Bengal itself, where the shift away of the waters to eastern branches led to the diminution of trade and industry, as well as an underlying diminution of agriculture. This is when the early moves of European traders to the banks of the Hooghly - the Danish in Srirampore, the French in Chandannagar, the Portuguese and the Dutch in Chinsurah - proved to be false starts due to the gradual drying up of that distributary.



khair_ctg said:


> what made them "not succeed"? is it the innate difficultly of doing that, that was not the case with say Persian or Punjabi? there is no reason to ponder whether *some* Bengali was written in Persian-Arabic script, iwo in a script that a settler "ashraf" could read and in a sound an indigenous "atrap" could understand. but one of the instances when there was some kind of official backing to standardize it was in the 1600s and an example of such work was by writer Mohammad Khan on Hussein (ra) as referenced from BD Encyclopedia. do you consider similar works a failure? if you say so, because of lesser prevalence later on compared to the Hindus' Bengali, i would agree.



My interpretation is that the need did not exist. 

The ashraf spoke Persian, and, where appropriate, Arabic. They had no need to speak Bengali. The Bengali-speaking Muslim formed a very small community, and there were not enough numbers for them to make a difference, or to lead to a different dialect.

As the dates of your reference makes it clear, it was only in Mughal times that the expansion of population occurred, and there was an extensive use of Persian and Arabic terms in the Bengali language. Eaton claims that there was no official backing for these efforts by the Mughal administrators, and no widespread usage took place. The existence of some work does not indicate a strong base or a mass-based language.


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## Joe Shearer

khair_ctg said:


> Yes, the entire book of Eaton's "The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier" studies Muslim civilization of Bengal in separation. the large population of Muslim Bengal for example is an important point of study. however the parallels with other Mughal/Islamicate centres of influence of the subcontinent, like Avadh and Punjab, and even Maharashtra, were discussed in how Mughal/Islamicate influence grew even when in independence from the imperial administration in northern India (Delhi and so on)



I am not sure about this, and would rather refrain from comment.

Eaton based his whole book on the unusual nature of the concentration of Muslims in east Bengal, compared to the different demography of the rest of India.


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## zip

nothing is permanent on this earth ..language culture religion belief border everything has been changing and will change in future too ..but every action has got reaction .. If changes happen naturally reaction will be absorbed by nature .. Otherwise be strong to absorb the reaction


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## Varunastra

khair_ctg said:


> not even close
> 
> 
> i'm really not aware if i'm sounding more hostile than i am in this case. i welcome @Joe Shearer 's contribution and participation in the discussion. it's just an observation that this level of objective discussion has been rare for me, with UDAYCAMPUS proving my point with his posts. be assured there is no grudge held against Joe Shearer or anyone like him



Bengali Language Movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
IT was the MAIN CATALYST and u cannot deny it!


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## kalu_miah

If I may point out that in no time in history of Bengal, the previous political entities had as large a majority from one relatively homogeneous community, as we have today in Bangladesh. So I believe it is very much within reach today to introduce new scripts, if people are interested to travel in this direction. I support introduction of two scripts, not as a replacement of existing script, but as experimental new possibilities:
1. English/Roman/Latin, following examples of usage in Malaysia, Indonesia, Turkey and other places
2. Nastaliq

The first one over time has the potential become the main script used by most Bangladeshi people and may replace the original Brahmi derived current script. The English script would be easy to learn for the masses, eliminate the need to learn a 2nd script for English and will also be useful for use in computer, smartphone etc.

The 2nd one I believe may become popular in religious education, such as in Madrasa. I think over time it will play a similar role as Arabic based Jawi script in Malaysia and Indonesia. It may also facilitate easier communication with other Nastaliq users in South Asia, Afghanistan and Iran.

It is true that Nastaliq script failed to take hold for Bangla language in past centuries, but if we look at Shahmukhi script for Punjabi, it came into wide usage only after 1947 Partition.

Nastaliq as the script for Persian was in continuous use as a court language of Bengal from 1204 to 1837. There was a period of "nativist" turn introduced by Raja Ganesh and his son, Jalal-al-Din Mohammad Shah, in 1415. This trend ended in 1576, when Akbar conquered Bengal. Even during this 161 year period, Persian language, I believe did not disappear from the court, but Bangla language got as much patronage as Persian and as a result Bangla became more widely used. From 1576 Persian influence increased again. This coincides with the period of agrarian expansion that Eaton described as the main reason for mass conversion of people to Islam in Bengal. This conversion happened mainly under supervision of some "immigrant" holy men or pirs who were in charge of these agrarian projects. The projects involved clear cutting of forests and thus create agricultural land mainly for wet rice cultivation. This process eventually created a Muslim majority in this frontier of Indo-Islamic world. Persian was finally abolished by the British in 1837 as the official court language of British India, after a decades long effort of linguistic study and translation at Fort William college (Orientalism):
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFUQFjAI&url=http://jsr.usb.ac.ir/pdf_395_0795d596005b8ae4254990124bf9569c.html&ei=ZjN4U7bZAsShogSonoK4Dg&usg=AFQjCNFFl6nlCIVS2FaHilASjpx2cgHFhQ&bvm=bv.66917471,d.cGU
http://www.urdustudies.com/pdf/28/04SafadiFortWilliam.pdf
British Orientalism | SRI
John Gilchrist (linguist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Persian influence was an established phenomenon in mediaval Hindustan (South Asia), Bangladesh was just a small part of this total picture:
http://www.muslimmodernities.org/uploads/Alam-Persian Lang in Mughal Politics.pdf

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## Joe Shearer

> The frontiers of Persian, however, extended far beyond the circle of
> the emperor, the princes and the high nobles. *Akbar was also the first
> among the Indo-Islamic kings of northern India formally to declare
> Persian to be the language of administration at all levels.* The pro-
> clamation to this effect was issued by his famous Khatri Hindu rev-
> enue minister, Todal Mal, accompanied by reorganization of the rev-
> enue and the other administrative offices by the equally famous
> Iranian noble, Mir Fathullah Shirazi. How an eighteenth-century his-
> torian, Ghulam Husain Tabataba'i remembered and recorded this
> changeover is significant;
> 
> *Earlier in India the government accounts were written in Hindi according to
> the Hindu rule. *Raja Todar Mal acquired new regulations (zawabit) from the
> clerks (nawisindagan) of Iran, and the government offices then were reorgan-
> ized as they were there in Wilayat.28



From the citation by @kalu_miah (emphasis added by me - JS).

I think that there is an unconscious re-writing of history going on here. Without realising it, Bangladeshi observers and analysts have internalised their story of a Persian culture prevailing right from the Slave Dynasty through the Mughals. On the contrary, it seems increasingly that the widespread use of Persian came about only during the Mughals.

I cannot help smiling.



> The Hindus began to
> learn Persian in Sikandar Lodi's time. Badaoni mentions one
> Brahman as an Arabic and Persian teacher of this period."3 Akbar's
> enlightened policy and introduction of 'secular' themes in the syl-
> labuses at middle levels 'stimulated a wide application to Persian
> studies'. Hindus-Kayasthas and Khatris in particular-joined
> madrasas in large numbers to acquire excellence in Persian language
> and literature, which now promised good careers in imperial service...


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## kalu_miah

*BENGAL – Encyclopaedia Iranica*

*BENGAL*
the deltaic region of the Ganges, Brahmaputra, and Meghna rivers, and the easternmost haven of Indo-Iranian culture on the Indian subcontinent.

*BENGAL*

_i. Persian Muslim elements in the history of Bengal. (For Persian elements in Bengali language and literature, see Supplement.)_

_ii. Royal Asiatic Society of Bengal.

i. Persian Muslim Elements in the History of Bengal_

Bengal, the deltaic region of the Ganges, Brahmaputra, and Meghna rivers, is the easternmost haven of Indo-Iranian culture on the Indian subcontinent. Iranian culture was introduced in Bengal from a.d. 1204, when the cavalry of Baḵtīār Ḵalajī, a Turkish officer of the newly implanted Mamluk dynasty in north India, swept into the city of Nādīa and dislodged from power the reigning Sena dynasty of Hindu kings (Raverty, I, pp. 548-60). Bengal was thereupon established as a province of the Delhi sultanate, through which it inherited the broad institutional features of the medieval Iranian world that had evolved under the ʿAbbasids. These included, most importantly, an appropriation of the pre-Muslim Persian tradition of monarchy and statecraft, an extensive reliance on imported slaves for domestic, military, and political service, and a highly commercialized and monetized economy. These three institutions continued to flourish even after provincial officers in Bengal threw off their allegiance to their overlords in Delhi and established an independent Bengal sultanate in 1342.

One sees the first of these institutions, the pre-Muslim Persian tradition of monarchy and statecraft, from the early 7th/13th century to about 818/1415, when a nativist Bengali revolution challenged Islamic dominion in the delta. The courts of the capital cities of Pānduā and Gaur sanctified the sultan, used Persianized royal paraphernalia, adopted an elaborate court ceremony modeled on the Sasanian imperial paradigm, employed a hierarchical bureaucracy, and promoted Islam as a state-sponsored religious orthodoxy. The coinage of the Bengal sultanate vividly reflects the last point, and the other points are seen in the observations of foreign visitors, especially Chinese ambassadors to the Bengal court (Abdul Karim, 1960, p. 18). According to one of the latter, the court exhibited such characteristically medieval Iranian imperial paraphernalia as peacock feathers, umbrellas, files of mounted and foot soldiers, a throne inlaid with precious stones, and lavish displays of gold (Rockhill, pp. 441-42).

A second Iranian institution, slave armies and aristocracies, existed in medieval Bengal, just as was typical in other parts of the Iranian cultural world. Domestic slaves were generally castrated Bengalis who were either sold to wealthy Muslim merchants of the capital or given to the ruling house as a form of tribute in lieu of land revenue (Hambly, pp. 125-29). For their armies, on the other hand, the Bengal sultans relied on foreign Muslims; for, in Bengal as elsewhere in the medieval Iranian world, the ruling house failed to develop an imperial aristocracy, requiring the creation of an artificial aristocracy composed of uprooted, foreign elements. Initially these were Turks imported from upper India, many of whom were recruited ultimately from Central Asia; but by the mid-9th/15th century, black Abyssinians, known as Ḥabašīs, were imported from east Africa by sea through the Bengali port of Chittagong (Hambly, pp. 125-29). However, these same palace guards and military slaves, again on the ʿAbbasid and medieval Iranian pattern, grew in influence as they grew in numbers, until in 891/1486 they managed to overthrow their masters and rule in their own names for a period of seven years (Ferešta, II, p. 301). Although a powerful new dynasty was installed by ʿAlī-al-Dīn Ḥosayn Shah in 898/1493, the influence of foreign military slaves persisted in the kingdom until the Mughal conquest of Bengal by Akbar in 994/1576.

A monetized economy and bureaucracy were likewise imported into Bengal in the early 8th/13th century. This third feature of the medieval Iranian world completely transformed the delta region. Prior to the coming of Persianized Turks in 1204, the major part of Bengal did not use metal coinage at all, although there was plenty of uncoined silver in the possession of Hindu kings in the region. Indeed, desire to plunder these stocks of silver seems to have been a major factor drawing Muslim armies into Bengal in the 7th/13th and 8th/14th centuries, since each new conquest in eastern, northern, and southern Bengal was followed by a bulge in the circulation of silver coins, apparently minted immediately after plunder (Deyell, p. 227). This coinage served not only to legitimate the ruling house according to the traditional Islamic emphasis placed on coinage as a manifestation of legitimate rule, but also transformed the way in which political relationships were expressed. Governors and commanders were now defined in terms of the amount of land revenue they were allowed to retain for purposes of maintaining armed forces. And the land revenue, in turn, was expressed in terms of the silver _tanka_, the standard currency introduced by the Muslim rulers of Bengal. A salaried bureaucracy in which relationships were expressed in monetary terms thus remained a lasting legacy of the medieval Iranian political economy.

Bengal’s connections with Iran during the 7th/13th and early 8th/14th centuries are clearly reflected in its architecture. Built near the end of the 7th/13th century, the tower of Chhota Pānduā near Calcutta is the earliest surviving Islamic monument in Bengal. Its height and form suggest that, in addition to serving as a minaret for a nearby mosque, it also announced victory over the conquered Bengali population, and in this capacity would have found precedents in the minaret of ʿAlāʾ-al-Dīn in Jām (before 600/1203), the tower of Ḡaznī, both in Afghanistan, and most immediately and significantly, the Qoṭb Menār of Delhi (597-612/1200-15; Asher, p. 53; Nath, p. 22). This wholesale transfer of Iranian architectural and ideological motifs into Bengal is further seen in the mosque of Ẓafar Khan Ḡāzī, built in 697/1298 in Tribeni, a formerly important center of Hindu civilization in the southwestern delta (Asher, pp. 135-36). Departing from the indigenous architectural tradition of Bengal, the arches and domes of this mosque reflect the contemporary style of north India, which in turn found its models in contemporary Persianized Central Asia. Thus the period 1204 to 1342 may be said to have been colonial in nature, as Persianized Turks of north India sought to extend their values and ideals into this farthest area of Indo-Muslim power in south Asia, a process that can be traced in contemporary literature and coinage, as well as in monuments (Jūzjānī, tr. pp. 559-60; Lowick, pp. 196-208).

In the 730s/1330s, however, Delhi’s grip over this eastern province began to slip, and in 1342 an independent sultanate was established by Šams-al-Dīn Elyās Shah. This successful revolution inaugurated a new era in the Bengal sultanate’s articulation of its cultural identity, and ushered in a new phase in its relations with Iran. Both the coins and the architecture of the dynasty suggest how its sultans sought to distance themselves from their parent sultanate in Delhi and, conversely, to find greater identification both with the institution of the caliphate and with the Iranian cultural world generally (Karim, 1960, p. 18). The Elyāsšāhī kings identified most readily with Iran’s imperial tradition, which is clearly seen in the great Ādīna Mosque in Pānduā, constructed by Šams-al-Dīn’s son and successor, Sultan Sekandar in 1375. Built of stone stripped from demolished temples, the Ādīna (Friday) Mosque measures 172 by 97 m and is the largest mosque in the Indian subcontinent (Crowe, pp. 155-64). Seen from either the exterior or the interior, the mosque’s western side projects a distinctly imperial aspect reminiscent of the grand imperial style of Sasanian Iran. The entire western wall is a huge multistoried screen on the exterior surfaces of which alternating recesses and projections, both horizontally and vertically, produce a shadowed effect. Though this kind of screen has no clear antecedent in Indo-Islamic architecture, it immediately recalls the external facade of the Ayvān-e Kesrā of Ctesiphon (q.v.), which is the most imposing architectural expression of Sasanian royal power to be found anywhere. The Ādīna Mosque’s most prominent feature is its monumental, ribbed barrel vault over the central nave, the first such vault used on a monumental scale anywhere in India, and yet another feature shared in common with the Ayvān-e Kesrā. Generations of Iranian architects and rulers came to consider the famous Sasanian palace with its enormous barrel vault to be the acme of visual grandiosity and regal splendor, and as such, a model to be consciously imitated. Hence a number of Iranian monuments intervened during the thousand years separating the Ayvān-e Kesrā and the Ādīna Mosque, perhaps the most important of which was the Masjed-e Jomʿa of Tabrīz, built in about 720/1320 (Wilber, pp. 146-47; Crowe, p. 158; see
arg-e ʿalǰšāh).

Cut off from both north India and the Middle East in the late 8th/14th and early 9th/15th centuries, Muslim Bengali monarchs enthusiastically looked far to the west for cultural inspiration. Thus, for example, the inscription on the Ādīna Mosque describes Sultan Sekandar as “the exalted Sultan, the wisest, the most just, the most liberal and most perfect of the Sultans of Arabia and Persia (_ʿArab o ʿAjam_)” (S. Ahmed, p. 38). The Bengali sultan evidently sought his inspiration not from local Bengali models of authority or from north Indian models, but rather from conceptions and models thoroughly rooted in the Iranian political and architectural tradition. Moreover, his son, Sultan Ḡīāṯ-al-Dīn Aʿẓamšāh (ca. 791-813/1389-1410) even tried to persuade the great poet of Shiraz Ḥāfeẓ to come and adorn his court in Bengal (Borah, p. 144). Although the poet declined the invitation, the incident perhaps represents the ultimate expression of this westward-looking orientation of the Bengal court, where the Persian language was extensively patronized. At this time a number of eminent Sufis, who formed the most Persianized element of the pre-Mughal intelligentsia, also enjoyed royal patronage. The most eminent and influential among these belonged to the Češtī order, and included such figures as Shaikh ʿAlāʾ-al-Ḥaqq (d. 1398) and his son Shaikh Nūr Qoṭb-e ʿĀlam (d. 1459?). In common with other members of the Muslim elite who traced their ancestry to the eastern rim of the Iranian plateau, Shaikh ʿAlāʾ-al-Ḥaqq’s father had migrated to Bengal from Lahore. For his part, Shaikh Nūr Qoṭb-e ʿĀlam produced a considerable corpus of Persian Sufi literature, consisting both of mystical tracts and of letters (_malfūẓāt_) written to disciples, nobles, and even kings (Abdul Karim 1972, pp. 336-37; Askeri, pp. 32-35; Abdul Latif, pp. 30-35).

In the early 9th/15th century, however, this steady infusion of Iranian culture into Bengal was abruptly cut short when both the symbols and the instruments of Muslim political authority in Bengal were challenged by a nativist rebellion spearheaded by a powerful Hindu noble, Raja Ganesh. Though he did not seize the reins of power himself, Ganesh was able to place on the throne puppet sultans through whom he effectively ran the affairs of state. And finally, in 1415, he managed to install on the throne his own son, albeit as a Muslim, Sultan Jalāl-al-Dīn Moḥammad Shah (1415-33; Dani, 1952, pp. 121-70). As a consequence of this extraordinary turn of events, which amounted to nothing less than a social revolution, Persian influence and indeed all foreign influence in Bengal slackened, and the ruling class evolved a cultural style that clearly reflected the indigenous culture of the delta. Thus the mosques of this period abandoned such foreign elements as open courts, ablution ponds, and minarets, becoming instead simple and compact buildings with only single prayer chambers, fronted by open, grassy areas (Dani, 1961, p. 26). Sultan Jalāl-al-Dīn’s own tomb, the Eklakhī mausoleum in Pānduā, itself betrayed all the hallmarks of a new, nativist architectural style: a square plan, a single dome, exclusive use of brick construction, massive walls, engaged octagonal corner towers, a curved cornice, and extensive terracotta ornamentation. To some extent these elements drew upon a high tradition of pre-Islamic Buddhist architecture in Bengal; and to some extent they drew upon local, folk idioms of household construction, most importantly the thatched hut. Both, in any case, were firmly rooted in Bengal’s indigenous cultural traditions (Sanyal, p. 416; Hasan, pp. 120-24). Patronized by the Bengal sultanate through the end of the 10th/16th century, this nativist architectural style paralleled other signs of the intrusion of Bengali culture into the court and the temporary eclipse of Persian. Ma Huan, a Chinese traveler who visited Bengal between 1425 and 1432, observed that, though Persian was understood by some in the court, the language in universal use was Bengali (Ma Huan, p. 161).

This nativist trend was reversed, however, when the Mughal Emperor Akbar (963-1014/1556-1605) conquered the delta in 1576, and for the first time in three centuries reunited the distant swampy province with the culture and destiny of north India. Though it took the Mughals until 1613 to subdue refractory chiefs and thus to integrate the entire province into their empire, this process was of cardinal importance for the reintroduction of Iranian culture in Bengal. For in 1540, when Mughal power in India was temporarily interrupted, Akbar’s father Homāyūn was forced to flee to Iran, where he found refuge in the court of Shah Ṭahmāsb Ṣafawī. Returning to India in 1545, Homāyūn and his courtiers brought with them a substantial number of Persian artists and literati who collectively left a heavy stamp of 10th/16th-century Safavid culture on north India.

This second influx of Persian civilization is mirrored in the stucco work on imperial architecture in the Mughals’ new provincial capital in Bengal, Dacca (Dhākā), and especially in the palaces and gardens of that city’s lovely Lālbāḡ fort (Asher, pp. 58-59, 63). Socially speaking, the Mughal conquest led to an influx of administrators, soldiers, literati, and Sufis who identified themselves as _ašrāf_ or “men of high extraction.” Forming a Muslim elite whose descendants dominated Muslim politics in Bengal down to modern times, these men claimed an ancestry in north India, Afghanistan, and especially Iran. One account written in the 1040s/1630s refers specifically to the waves of up-country migrants who settled in the Mughal provincial capital of Dacca following Akbar’s conquest, and states that most of the government officers and notables living in Dacca during that decade were foreigners whose ancestors or who themselves had come from Kašmīr, Mašhad, Tehran, Badaḵšān, Māzandarān, or Gīlān (Halim, pp. 355-56). Many of these migrants were Shiʿites who came either from upper India or, more frequently, directly from Iran via the Persian Gulf and the Bay of Bengal. Arising in part from the increase in India Ocean communication during the 11th/17th century, and in part from the decline of the Safavid royal house in Isfahan, this migration reached a high point after Moršedqolī Khan, governor of Bengal from 1701 to 1726, established what amounted to a Shiʿite dynasty in Bengal. Among the more notable Iranian immigrants was the historian Abu’l-Ḥasan Golestāna, who wrote _Mojmal al-tawārīḵ baʿd-e nāderīya_, and who arrived in Bengal in 1169/1756 (Sarkar, pp. 224, 419). The influx of these migrants drove members of Bengal’s old political elite, who were primarily Afghans, from the cities into the more remote regions of east and south Bengal where they reestablished themselves as colonizers and local magnates (Ghosh, p. 56; Du Jarric, pp. 3-4, 32). Many a village in eastern Bengal, now Bangladesh, claims to have been founded by Afghan adventurers rusticated by the Mughal conquest in the early 11th/17th century (Qadir, pp. 43-44).

Iranian influence also entered Bengal through the Mughals’ revenue system. Although the revenue system under the independent sultans of Bengal had been maintained in the Bengali language, the Mughals brought with them an administrative system thoroughly integrated with Persianized administrative usages and terms. The Mughals regularly transferred their highest officers from province to province, and since Persian was the only common language used by their senior officers throughout the empire, the extension of Mughal administration in India invariably included Persian-speaking officers who were seldom in any single province long enough to learn the local language. In the early eighteenth century, in the time of Moršedqolī Khan, high revenue posts were also given to Hindus well versed in Persian administrative practice. This system encouraged the local agents of such officers to learn Persian, for, since the Mughals greatly expanded the administrative system in Bengal, native clerks and accountants, whether Muslim or Hindu, had to learn Persian in order to gain or retain state employment. In this way, the Persian language was reinstated in Bengal and patronized by both Hindu and Muslim government servants. In the 12th/18th century, there was also a proliferation of Sufi brotherhoods in Bengal, and they too added to the stock of locally generated Persian literature, though of a mediocre quality (Sarkar, pp. 223-24; 410). Moreover, at this time Persian romances such as Jāmī’s _Yūsof o Zolayḵā_ and Neẓāmī’s _Ḵamsa_ entered Bengali folk literature, profoundly infusing it with Persian imagery and vocabulary along with a world view permeated with Sufi values (Roy, p. 90).

The Mughals’ reunification of Bengal with north India, and thus indirectly with Iranian culture, also served, however, to widen social cleavages between _ašrāf_Muslims and those rural masses who had been gradually absorbed into a distinctly local variant of Muslim society since the 8th/14th century. The _ašrāf_ tended to be suspicious of the religious practices of rural Muslims, steeped as the latter were in the veneration of local saints and in devotion to a host of syncretic cults (Ahmed, pp. 5-27). While the _ašrāf_ claimed foreign origins and patronized “Islamic” languages like Arabic and Persian, the non-_ašrāf_ were of purely Bengali extraction and spoke only Bengali, and whereas the _ašrāf_ were predominantly urban dwellers and disdained farming as a way of life, the non-_ašrāf_ were rural folk who readily identified themselves as cultivators of the soil. These sociocultural differences were echoed in the poetry of Bengali writers who remarked that some Muslims rebuked them for using the Bengali language and for “Indianizing” the teachings of Islam (Haq, pp. 121-22). This suggests a tension between Bengal’s minority _ašrāf_population, who held the levers of social and political power, and the majority non-_ašrāf_ population, for whom many Bengali poets had consciously attempted to mediate Islamic teachings.

For the past seven centuries, Persian culture has exerted a powerful influence on the social, political, and cultural life of Bengal. In view of the extensive range of these influences that resulted from a sustained exposure to Iran, it may legitimately be said that Bengal represents the easternmost extension of the Persian cultural world. The final proof of this lies in the deep penetration of Perso-Arabic vocabulary into the Bengali language. A recent dictionary compiled a total of 5,186 words and expressions of Perso-Arabic origin found in ordinary Bengali, but noted that “some of these words and expressions were metamorphosed into Bengali forms almost beyond recognition in respect of phonology and spelling” (Hilali, p. v). Indeed, the deep penetration of Perso-Arabic words into the phonology and spelling of modern Bengali remains perhaps the ultimate testimony to Iran’s long and profound influence on the delta region.

_Bibliography_:

Abdul Karim, _Corpus of the Muslim Coins of Bengal_, Asiatic Society of Pakistan, Publication no. 6, Dacca, 1960.

Idem, “Nur Qutb Alam’s Letter on the Ascendancy of Ganesa,” in M. E. Haq, ed.,_Abdul Karim Sahitya-Visarad Commemoration Volume_, Dacca, 1972.

S. K. Abdul Latif, “The Muslim Mystic Movements in Bengal from the 14th to the Middle of the 16th Century, A.D.,” Ph.D. dissertation, Aligarh Muslim University, 1974.

R. Ahmed, _The Bengal Muslims, 1871-1906: A Quest for Identity_, Delhi, 1981.

S. Ahmed, _Inscriptions of Bengal _IV, Rajshahi, 1960.

C. B. Asher, “Inventory of Key Monuments,” in _The Islamic Heritage of Bengal_, ed. G. Michell, Paris, 1984, pp. 37-140.

S. H. Askeri, “New Light on Rajah Ganesh and Sultan Ibrahim Sharqi of Jaunpur from Contemporary Correspondence of Two Muslim Saints,” _Bengal Past and Present _57, 1948, pp. 32-39.

M. I. Borah, “An Account of the Immigration of Persian Poets into Bengal,” _Dacca University Studies _1, 1935, pp. 141-50.

Y. Crowe, “Reflections on the Adina Mosque at Pandua,” in _The Islamic Heritage of Bengal_, ed. G. Michell, Paris, 1984, pp. 155-64.

A. H. Dani, “The House of Raja Ganesa of Bengal,” _Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal. Letters _18/2, 1952, pp. 121-70.

Idem, _Muslim Architecture in Bengal_, Asiatic Society of Pakistan, Publication no. 7, Dacca, 1961.

J. Deyell, “The China Connection: Problems of Silver Supply in Medieval Bengal,” in J. F. Richards, ed., _Precious Metals in the Later Medieval and Early Modern Worlds_, Durham, 1983, pp. 207-24.

P. Du Jarric, _Akbar and the Jesuits_, ed. E. Denison Ross and E. Powell, tr. C. H. Payne, New Delhi, 1979.

M. Q. Ferešta, _Tārīḵ-eFerešta_, 2 vols., Lucknow, 1864-65.

J. M. Ghosh, “An Afghan Fortress in Mymensingh,” _Bengal Past and Present _27, 1924, pp. 56-58.

A. Halim, “An Account of the Celebrities of Bengal of the Early Years of Shahjahan’s Reign Given by Muhammad Sadiq,” _Journal of the Pakistan Historical Society _1, 1953, pp. 338-56.

G. Hambly, “A Note on the Trade in Eunuchs in Mughal Bengal,” _Journal of the American Oriental Society _94/1, 1974, pp. 125-29.

P. Hasan, “Sultanate Mosque-Types in Bangladesh: Origins and Development,” Ph.D. dissertation, Harvard University, 1984.

M. E. Haq, _Muslim Bengali Literature_, Karachi, 1957.

G. M. Hilali, _Perso-Arabic Elements in Bengali_, Dacca, 1967.

N. W. Lowick, “The Horseman Type of Bengal and the Question of Commemorative Issues,” _Journal of the Numismatic Society of India _35, 1973, pp. 196-208.

Ma Huan, _Ying-yai Sheng-lan:_ “_The Overall Survey of the Ocean’s Shores_,” tr. J. F. G. Mills, Cambridge, 1970.

R. Nath, _History of Sultanate Architecture_, New Delhi, 1978.

S. A. Qadir, _Village Dhanishwar: Three Generations of Man-Land Adjustment in an East Pakistan Village_, Comilla, 1960.

W. W. Rockhill, “Notes on the Relations and Trade of China with the Eastern Archipelago and the Coast of the Indian Ocean during the Fourteenth Century, Part Two,” _T’oung Pao _16, 1915, pp. 61-73, 435-47.

A. Roy, _The Islamic Syncretistic Tradition in Bengal_, Princeton, 1983.

H. Sanyal, “Religious Architecture in Bengal (15th-17th Centuries): A Study of the Major Trends,” in _Indian History Congress Proceedings, 32nd Session_, New Delhi, 1970, I, pp. 413-22.

J. Sarkar, _History of Bengal-Muslim Period, 1200-1757_, Patna, 1977.

D. N. Wilber, _The Architecture of Islamic Iran. The Il-Khanid Period_, Princeton, 1955.

(Richard M. Eaton)

ii. Royal Asiatic Society of Bengal

The Royal Asiatic Society of Bengal (originally known as The Asiatick Society, after 1851 as the Asiatic Society of Bengal, and since 1950 simply as The Asiatic Society), is the second oldest society of orientalists in the world and a major center of Persian studies. It was founded on 15 January 1784 under the leadership of William Jones (1746-94, q.v.), with the fundamental aim of inquiring into the history and antiquities, arts, sciences, and literatures of Asia. Jones became the first president of the Society and remained the moving spirit behind its activities until his untimely death. His contribution to Oriental research is widely recognized: he knew Persian well, learned Sanskrit, and helped to develop the field of comparative philosophy. He was succeeded as president by Charles Wilkins (1750-1836), one of the Society’s founders, who was later appointed the first keeper of the India Office Library in London, now part of the British Library.

In order to pursue its stated objectives, the Society held weekly meetings at which learned papers on Oriental topics were presented. It provided a valuable forum for both Indian and European scholars in a broad range of Persian studies: language, literature, history, geography, linguistics, numismatics, topography, material culture, and so on. Many of the fruits of these researches, as well as reports of new archeological discoveries, explorations, and travels in Iran, Afghanistan, and Central Asia, were published in the various learned journals sponsored by the Society.

In 1788 the Society began publication of _Asiatick Researches_, of which twenty volumes appeared before it was suspended in 1839. This journal was in great demand, and French, German, and British scholars published translations from it. The _Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal_, which began publication independently in 1832, came under the aegis of the Society in 1843, and is still published as _Journal of The Asiatic Society _(Simmonds and Digby, p. 15).

Among those who guided the Society’s affairs after Jones and Wilkins were Sir John Shore, Sir Robert Chambers, C. E. Carrington, William Hunter, and Henry Thomas Colebrook. Colebrook served as president from 1806 to 1815 and obtained for the Society the spacious lot on which its headquarters still stand, at 1 Park Street, Calcutta. He was subsequently instrumental in founding the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland, which was officially inaugurated on 15 March 1823 in London, with King George IV as patron and R. C. Wellesley and Warren Hastings as vice-patrons. Both the latter had also served as president of the Asiatick Society. Several members of the British society had also worked for the British government of India and were acquainted with the workings of the Society, with which close ties were maintained. In other countries, too, societies were founded on the model of The Asiatick Society. In 1822 French orientalists established the Société Asiatique, which in the same year began publication of its _Journal_. Edward Elbridge Salisbury, professor of Arabic at Yale University, founded the American Oriental Society in 1842; the first fascicle of its _Journal _appeared in 1843. The Deutsche Morgenländische Gesellschaft was founded on a similar pattern in 1845; it has published its _Zeitschrift _since 1847.

Apart from its scholarly journals, The Asiatic Society has contributed to Persian studies through publication of critical editions of important manuscripts in Persian; paramount among them were the first critical editions of Ferdowsī’s _Šāh-nāma_: a portion edited under the direction of M. Lumsden, which appeared in 1811, and the complete text prepared by Turner Macan and published in four volumes in 1829. Both men were members of the Society. Among other important Persian sources for the history of India and the Iranian world edited and translated as part of the Society’s Bibliotheca Indica, the following may be mentioned: ʿAbd-al-Bāqī Nehāvandī, _Maʾāṯer-e raḥīmī_, ed. M. Hedāyat Ḥosayn, 3 vols. in 4, 1910-31. ʿAbd-al-Ḥamīd Lāhūrī, _Pādšāh-nāma _(or _Bādšāh-nāma_), ed. K. Aḥmad, ʿAbd-al-Raḥīm, and W. N. Lees, 2 vols. plus index, 1866-72. ʿAbd-Allāh b. Nūr-al-Dīn Šūštarī, _Taḏkera-ye Šūštarī_, ed. Ḵ. B. Mawlābaḵš, 1914; rev. ed. Mawlābaḵš and M. Hedāyat Ḥosayn, 1924. ʿAbd-al-Rašīd Tattavī, _Farhang-e rašīdī_, ed. Ḏ. ʿAlī and ʿAzīz-al-Raḥmān, 2 vols., 1875. ʿAbd-al-Razzāq Šahnavāz Khan, _Maʾāṯer al-omarāʾ_, ed. ʿAbd-al-Raḥīm and A. ʿAlī, 3 vols., 1888-91; tr. H. Beveridge, 3 vols., 1911-64. Abu’l-Fażl ʿAllāmī,_Āʾīn-e akbarī_, 2 vols., ed. H. Blochmann, 1867-77; I tr. H. Blochmann, 1873, rev. D. C. Phillott, 1927, II-III tr. H. S. Jarrett, 1891-94, III rev. J. Sarkar, 1948-49. Idem,_Akbar-nāma_, ed. ʿAbd-al-Raḥīm, 3 vols. in 2, 1873-86; tr. H. Beveridge, 3 vols. in 4, 1907-39. Mīr Abū Torāb Walī, _Tārīḵ-eGujarāt_, ed. E. D. Ross, 1909. Aḥmad ʿAlī,_Haft āsmān_, ed. H. Blochmann, 1873. Amīn Aḥmad Rāzī, _Haft eqlīm _I, ed. E. D. Ross, ʿAbdal-Moqtader, A. H. Harley, M. Maḥfūẓ-al-Ḥaqq, 1939; II ed. M. Esḥāq, 1963; V ed. S. B. Ṣamadī, 1972. ʿAbd-al-Qāder Badāʾūnī, _Montaḵab al-tawārīḵ_, ed. A. ʿAlī, W. N. Lees, and K. Aḥmad, 3 vols., 1865-69; I tr. G. S. A. Ranking, 1898, II tr. W. H. Lowe, 1884-98, 2nd ed., 1924, III tr. T. W. Haig, 1884. Bāyazīd Bayāt,_Taḏkera-ye Homāyūn wa Akbar_, ed. M. Hedāyat Ḥosayn, 1941. Abu’l-Fażl Moḥammad Bayhaqī, _Tārīḵ-eBayhaqī_, ed. W. H. Morley, 1862. Bayram Khan Ḵān-e Ḵānān, _Dīvān_ (in Persian and Ottoman Turkish), ed. E. D. Ross, 1910. Moḥammad Dārā Šokūh, _Majmaʿ al-baḥrayn_, ed. and tr. M. Maḥfūẓ-al-Ḥaqq, 1929. Faḵr-al-Dīn Asʿad Astarābādī Gorgānī, _Vīs o Rāmīn_, ed. W. N. Lees and A. ʿAlī, 1865. Ḡolām-ʿAlī Khan, _Šāh-ʿĀlam-nāma_, ed. H. De, A. Sohrawardī, and M. K. Šīrāzī, 1912-14. Ḡolām-Ḥosayn Salīm Zaydpūrī, _Rīāż al-salāṭīn_ (_History of Bengal_), ed., ʿA. ʿĀbed, 1890; tr. ʿAbd-al-Salām, 1902. Ḡolām-Moḥammad Dehlawī, _Taḏkera-ye ḵᵛošnevīsān_, ed. M. Hedāyat Ḥosayn, 1910. Abu’l-Ḥosayn Hāšemī, _Faras-nāma_, ed. D. C. Phillott, 1910. Moḥammad-Hāšem Ḵāfī Khan, _Montaḵab al-lobāb_ I, II, ed. K. Aḥmad and Ḡ. Qāder, 1860-74, III ed. W. Haig, 1925. Ḵᵛāndamīr, _Qānūn-e homāyūnī_ (_Homāyūn-nāma_), ed. M. Hedāyat Ḥosayn, 1940; tr. B. Prashad, 1940. Ḵodā-Yār Khan ʿAbbāsī, _Qawānīn al-ṣayyād_, ed. D. C. Phillott, 1908. Moḥammad Mahdī Khan Astarābādī, _Mabāni’l-loḡāt_ (Chaghatay grammar in Persian), ed. E. D. Ross, 1910. Abū ʿAmr Menhāj-al-Dīn ʿOṯmān Jūzjānī, _Ṭabaqāt-e nāṣerī_, ed. W. N. Lees, Ḵ. Ḥosayn, and ʿAbd-al-Ḥayy, 1864; tr. H. G. Raverty, 2 vols. plus index, 1881-97. Monšī Moḥammad Kāẓem, _ʿĀlamgīr-nāma_, ed. Ḵ. Ḥosayn, ʿAbd-al-Ḥayy, and W. N. Lees, 1868, index, 1873. Moḥammad-Ṣāleḥ Kanbūh Lāhūrī, _ʿAmal-e Ṣāleḥ_(_Šāhjahān-nāma_), ed. Ḡ. Yazdānī, 3 vols. plus index, 1923-46. Moḥammad Sāqī Mostaʿedd Khan, _Maʾāṯer-e ʿālamgīrī_, ed. A. ʿAlī, 1873, tr. J. Sarkar, 1947. Moḥammad-Šarīf Moʿtamad Khan, _Eqbāl-nāma-ye jahāngīrī_, ed. ʿAbd-al-Ḥayy, A. ʿAlī, and W. N. Lees, 1865; tr. W. H. Lowe, _Tūzok-e jahāngīrī_, 1889. Żīāʾ-al-Dīn Naḵšabī, _Golrēz_, ed. M. K. Šīrāzī and R. F. Ārzū, 1912. Neẓām-al-Dīn Aḥmad Haravī,_Ṭabaqāt-e akbarī_, 3 vols., ed. B. De and M. Hedāyat Ḥosayn, 1927-35; tr. B. De I-II, 1927-36, III, 1940. Neẓāmī Ganjavī, _Ḵerad-nāma-ye eskandarī_, ed. A. Sprenger and M. Šūštarī, and A. ʿAlī, 1852-69. ʿOmar Ḵayyām, _Robāʿīyāt_, ed. with facsimile M. Maḥfūẓ-al Ḥaqq, 1939. Mīrzā Moḥammad Qāsemī Jūnābādī, _Taḏkera-ye Šāh Ṭahmāsb_, ed. D. C. Phillott, 1912. Saʿdī Šīrāzī, _Ṭayyebāt_, ed. L. W. King, 1926. Šams-al-Dīn ʿAfīf, _Tārīḵ-efīrūzšāhī_, ed. W. Ḥosayn, 1891. Abu’l-Majd Majdūd Sanāʾī, _Ḥadīqat al-ḥaqīqa_, ed. and tr. J. Stephenson, 1910. Šaraf-al-Dīn ʿAlī Yazdī,_Ẓafar-nāma _(History of Timur), ed. M. Elahdād, 2 vols., 1887-88. Yaḥyā b. Aḥmad al-Sīhrendī, _Tārīḵ-emobārakšāhī_, ed. M. Hedāyat Ḥosayn, 1931. Aḥmad Yādgār,_Tārīḵ-ešāhī_, ed. M. Hedāyat Ḥosayn, 1939. Yūsof-ʿAlī Khan, _Tārīḵ-eBangālā-ye Mahābat-jang_, ed. ʿAbd-al-Sobḥān, 1969. Zabardast Khan, _Faras-nāma_ (_Toḥfat al-Ṣadr_), ed. D. C. Phillott, 1911. Żīāʾ-al-Dīn Baranī, _Tārīḵ-efīrūzšāhī_, ed. A. Khan, W. N. Lees, and K. Aḥmad, 1862.

Some of the English translations mentioned have become standard, in particular Blochmann’s rendering of _Āʾīn-e akbarī_. Of the many Iranian scholars who worked on these text editions Āḡā Aḥmad ʿAlī (d. 1873), a literary rival of the great Indo-Persian poet Asad-Allāh Khan Ḡāleb (d. 1869), was particularly prominent. He edited or collaborated on editing a number of works for the Society.

The Asiatic Society has a very rich collection of Persian manuscripts, which was catalogued by the Russian orientalist W. Ivanow, _Concise Descriptive Catalogue of the Persian Manuscripts in the Collection of the Asiatic Society of Bengal _(1924). In 1926 Ivanow published _Concise Descriptive Catalogue of the Persian Manuscripts in the Curzon Collection_; the latter collection was also under the care of the Society.

_Bibliography_:

Asiatic Society, _Catalogue of Publications_, Calcutta, 1984.

Idem, _Centenary Review of the Asiatic Society of Bengal from 1784 to 1833_, Calcutta, 1885.

Idem, _Proceedings of the Asiatic Society of Bengal_, Calcutta, 1865-1904.

Idem, _Souvenir of the All-India Oriental Conference, 24-26 October 1986_, Calcutta, 1986.

Idem, _Year-Book of the Asiatic Society of Bengal_, Calcutta, 1958-73.

Ż. Dēsāʾī, “Ḡāleb apnē do moʿāṣerīn kī naẓar mēn,” _Ḡāleb-nāma_ 3/2, 1982, pp. 171-83.

A. C. Gupta, _Studies in the Bengal Renaissance_, Jadavpur (Calcutta), 1958, pp. 361-63.

N. N. Law, _Promotion of Learning in India_, Calcutta, 1915.

R. C. Majumdār, _History of Modern Bengal_, Calcutta, 1978, p. 147.

Kālidās Nāg, _Birth Bicentenary Commemoration Volume of Sir William Jones_, Calcutta, 1948.

K. Saharāmī, “Ḡāleb kē ēk ḥarīf,” in _Ḡāleb-nāma_ 2/2, 1981, pp. 50-59.

J. S. Sharma, _Encyclopaedia Indica _I, New Delhi, 1981, p. 78.

S. Simmonds and S. Digby, eds., _The Royal Asiatic Society. Its History and Treasures_, Leiden and London, 1979.

(N. H. Ansari and S. H. Qasemi)

(Richard M. Eaton, N. H. Ansari and S. H. Qasemi)

Originally Published: December 15, 1989

Last Updated: December 15, 1989

This article is available in print.
Vol. IV, Fasc. 2, pp. 137-143

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## kalu_miah

Joe Shearer said:


> From the citation by @kalu_miah (emphasis added by me - JS).
> 
> I think that there is an unconscious re-writing of history going on here. Without realising it, Bangladeshi observers and analysts have internalised their story of a Persian culture prevailing right from the Slave Dynasty through the Mughals. On the contrary, it seems increasingly that the widespread use of Persian came about only during the Mughals.
> 
> I cannot help smiling.



This is not true, Persian was well established right from the start of Delhi Sultanate. As Mongols invaded Khwarezm and West Asia, many Muslims (Turkic, Persian etc.) fled those areas and found sanctuary in Delhi Sultanate. The frontier between these two empires also created a barrier between the successor Khanates and Delhi Sultanate, cutting off free flow of migrants from their ancestral areas in the West and North. I think this has caused the fading of Turkish dynasties both in Delhi and Bengal. I don't know about other places in India which had similar independent Sultanates like Bengal, but I would guess, they would be suffering from the same malaise.

When Babur finally came in, he essentially reestablished that connection between South Asia and Central and West Asia.

You can see also in above post that Persian was also firmly established in Bengal from the beginning of Bengal Sultanate and just like Delhi received Persian speakers, a good number I believe also moved to Bengal, escaping from Mongol invasions.

You should look at this thread which I presented earlier:
Turks, Mongols and a Persian Secretarial Class in Early Delhi Sultanate
"Abstract

The consolidation of the Delhi Sultanate coincided with the Mongol devastation of Transoxiana, Iran and Afghanistan. This paper studies the *Persian literature of the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries invested as it was in the projection of the court of the Delhi Sultans as the sanctuary of Islam, where the Muslim community was safe from the marauding infidel Mongols.* The binaries on which the qualities of the accursed Mongols and the monolithic Muslim community were framed ignored the fact that a large number of Sultanate elites and monarchs were of Turkish/Mongol ethnicity or had a history of prior service in their (Mongol) armed contingents. While drawing attention to the narrative strategies deployed by Sultanate chroniclers to obscure the humble frontier origins of its lords and masters, my paper also elaborates on steppe traditions and rituals prevalent in early-fourteenth-century Delhi. All of these underlined the heterogeneity of Muslim Sultanate society and politics in the capital,a complexity that the *Persian litterateurs* were loath to acknowledge in their records."

It is possible that Akbar was the first ruler to formally declare Persian as the official language, I am not sure.


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## Joe Shearer

@kalu_miah



> It is possible that Akbar was the first ruler to formally declare Persian as the official language, I am not sure.



All my references are entirely, and solely, from those supplied by Bangladeshi posters. This is deliberate, to avoid competing to supply references and sources that uniquely support our different stands. Akbar as the first ruler to formally declare Persian as the official language is taken from Alam's Persian Language in Mughal Politics.

Regarding your point



> Persian was well established right from the start of Delhi Sultanate. As Mongols invaded Khwarezm and West Asia, many Muslims (Turkic, Persian etc.) fled those areas and found sanctuary in Delhi Sultanate. The frontier between these two empires also created a barrier between the successor Khanates and Delhi Sultanate, cutting off free flow of migrants from their ancestral areas in the West and North. I think this has caused the fading of Turkish dynasties both in Delhi and Bengal. I don't know about other places in India which had similar independent Sultanates like Bengal, but I would guess, they would be suffering from the same malaise.


 where are the citations? Well-established in what way? As the language of the rulers? As the language of the ruling class? As the language of administration? As a lingua franca?

You are referring to the Sultanate set up by Turkish slaves, as you are aware, having mentioned their fading away as Turkish dynasties; it seems odd that they should use Persian rather than Turkish. I am willing to take your word for it, but it would be nice if you had cited references. Khwarezm and Central Asia were the idiom of Turan, according to Amir Khusrau, not the idiom of Persia: this too is from your reference, Alam.

The Slave Sultans were succeeded by Khalji (Turks) Tughlaq and Lodi: none of them Persian.

The administrative language was never Persian; therefore, Persian was one of the courtly, civil languages used in and around the court of Delhi. It is moot how much it was really used in Bengal. The experience of the other independent sultanates - Gujarat, the successors of the Bahamanis, that is, the Qutb Shahi, the Adil Shahi and the other three - was identical to that of Bengal: some early use of Persian being rapidly replaced by a mixture of Persian and 'Hindavi', meaning the local language.

I sincerely hope you have an open mind on the subject. I do, and my conclusions are increasingly in one direction.

I haven't had time to go through the paper on Turks, Mongols and a Persian ruling class, but shall do so shortly.


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## Al-zakir

Urdu script derived from Arabic and Farsi. Most Muslims know the Arabic script. So it's no brainer to replaced current Bangla script with Arabic based script example bellow. Average Bangladeshi Muslims can adopt Arabic based script within 3 month max. Having Arabic based script will eliminate Hindu leaning devangiri script and subsequent effect will enable us to revive musalmani Bangla(Farsi based) spoken by our Muslim forefather.

But first Hindu loving Awami league and Tagore worshipping Islamic named murtids Bengali intellectuals must be eliminated from scene.

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## Vinod2070

Al-zakir said:


> But first Hindu loving Awami league and Tagore worshipping Islamic named murtids Bengali intellectuals must be eliminated from scene.



Unfortunately, it seems that the Arab loving jamaatis and the razakaars are the ones who are getting eliminated from the scene first.


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## Al-zakir

Vinod2070 said:


> Unfortunately, it seems that the Arab loving jamaatis and the razakaars are the ones who are getting eliminated from the scene first.




One day of _Sher_ is equal to 100 years of _geedar_.


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## Saiful Islam

Al-zakir said:


> Urdu script derived from Arabic and Farsi. Most Muslims know the Arabic script. So it's no brainer to replaced current Bangla script with Arabic based script example bellow. Average Bangladeshi Muslims can adopt Arabic based script within 3 month max. Having Arabic based script will eliminate Hindu leaning devangiri script and subsequent effect will enable us to revive musalmani Bangla(Farsi based) spoken by our Muslim forefather.
> 
> But first Hindu loving Awami league and Tagore worshipping Islamic named murtids Bengali intellectuals must be eliminated from scene.





See this is what I don't get, why do the Indians have an issue with us adopting us Nastaliq script which was used by our dadar dadar dada, even their forefathers probably used it. My grandfather was part of EPR back in the days he knows how to speak farsi basha. We the Bengalis are known to be multilingual, juggling Hindi Urdu and Bangla, this is evident in western countries. 

I still hold the view that it is too late to change the script, unless measures are taken to gradually integrate the script in Bangladesh, I think both can co-exist as then people have the option to read one of the two.

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## DRaisinHerald

kalu_miah said:


> but if we look at Shahmukhi script for Punjabi, it came into wide usage only after 1947 Partition.



Not really. One of my earlier posts on this thread; you missed it:



DRaisinHerald said:


> The tradition of Punjabi language literature began only in the 12 or 13th century around Baba Farid's time. Punjabi didn't have a standardized script before that, as most people were illiterate. So the primary script used to write the language among the few educated became Nastaliq (later Shahmukhi). Since the inception of Sikhism, Gurmukhi began to be used as well. So in Punjabi's case, the Nastaliq script was already well established before the other variant came into the picture. Similar case with Urdu, where Nastaliq was being used to write it until Devanagari was later introduced.


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## Al-zakir

s


Saiful Islam said:


> See this is what I don't get, why do the Indians have an issue with us adopting us Nastaliq script which was used by our dadar dadar dada, even their forefathers probably used it. My grandfather was part of EPR back in the days he knows how to speak farsi basha. We the Bengalis are known to be multilingual, juggling Hindi Urdu and Bangla, this is evident in western countries.
> 
> I still hold the view that it is too late to change the script, unless measures are taken to gradually integrate the script in Bangladesh, I think both can co-exist as then people have the option to read one of the two.



It's natural for Indian(Hindus) to highlight their culture and heritage but it's saddening and disappointing when certain Islamic named Bangladeshi take the side of Hinduism instead of Islam. They make me sick.

Adopting Arabic based script makes sense because it's right thing to do to save our identity from Bharti aggression. This is the only way our next generations will grow up as Muslim instead of those sagol Tagore loving Islamic named murtids based in Dacca. Keep in mind Bangladesh is only nation surrounded by maloon.

I remembered my grand mother used a lot more Farsi words in Syloti language compare to us-the diluted lost current generation.

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## anyrandom

le....bengali is a highly sanskritized language( hindu connections) so later what? you will have to dump bengali for arabic


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## Saiful Islam

Al-zakir said:


> s
> 
> It's natural for Indian(Hindus) to highlight their culture and heritage but it's saddening and disappointing when certain Islamic named Bangladeshi take the side of Hinduism instead of Islam. They make me sick.
> 
> Adopting Arabic based script makes sense because it's right thing to do to save our identity from Bharti aggression. This is the only way our next generations will grow up as Muslim instead of those sagol Tagore loving Islamic named murtids based in Dacca. Keep in mind Bangladesh is only nation surrounded by maloon.
> 
> I remembered my grand mother used a lot more Farsi words in Syloti language compare to us-the diluted lost current generation.




The new generation are well aware of what is happening and are Islamically inclined, but they take no interest in this nirbachon business as they don't care, they are aware of oppression occurring in the Muslim world particularly Palestine and Syria, this nirbachon business with Indians, Pakistanis and to a lesser extent Bangladesh is discussed rarely amongst youth.


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## Joe Shearer

Saiful Islam said:


> See this is what I don't get, why do the Indians have an issue with us adopting us Nastaliq script which was used by our dadar dadar dada, even their forefathers probably used it. My grandfather was part of EPR back in the days he knows how to speak farsi basha. We the Bengalis are known to be multilingual, juggling Hindi Urdu and Bangla, this is evident in western countries.
> 
> I still hold the view that it is too late to change the script, unless measures are taken to gradually integrate the script in Bangladesh, I think both can co-exist as then people have the option to read one of the two.


 
@Saiful Islam, let us separate the academic from the emotional.

The emotional first - Bangladesh is a free country. It is far more homogeneous than many other countries in the vicinity, and has a better claim to being a nation-state than either Pakistan or India, in increasing order of distance from Westphalia. If the people, or even a section of the people, decide to cultivate their language in one script rather than other, whose business is it but theirs? If people of similar ethnicity in another country wish to continue with their original script, they, too, have a perfect right to do what they want. Why on earth should either set start obsessing over the other?

Regarding the academic point of view, evidence is clear that Bangla with a strong mixture of imported words from Persian, Turkish and Arabic existed long ago, however, this was not necessarily accompanied simultaneously by adopting a right-to-left script. It appears from the records - or rather, my personal interpretation of those records - that the following happened:

Bangla was interspersed with Turkish, Persian and Arabic words from 1201 onwards;
This happened at the level of the court. Muslims were largely located in the western parts of Bengal, and the gentry at court used language other than Bangla, not being Bangla speakers themselves;
This situation continued until the Mughal conquest of Bengal.
The rapid rise in demographics led to a populating of east Bengal; this population was largely Muslim, and polyglot;
The written script may have changed around that time; that is not to say that there were no such initiatives ever tried before, during the period of the Sultanate, especially during the period of the Husain Shahi Sultanate;
These were all essentially incremental in nature, and led to some 5,000 + Persian and other loan words entering the Bangla language;
There was a re-creation of an essentially mythological Bangla by the Fort William College and its pandit interlocutors. This entirely artificial re-creation led to an instant reaction among Bengali Muslims;
It was this reaction that created today's Musulmani Bangla. All that its proponents say about it is true; it was used, it was oriented to Persian and Arabic script, it was confined to Muslims; it was in wide usage among them, until as recently as two generations ago, and it gave them a sense of identity when it was under threat due to the Sanskritised Bangla that drove the Bengal Renaissance.
I believe that this covers most of the territory.

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## The Snow Queen

@kalu_miah God dayyum!! How am I supposed to read ALL those information you posted here in this thread!?


Al-zakir said:


> Unfortunately, it seems that the Arab loving jamaatis and the razakaars are the ones who are getting eliminated from the scene first.



Typical maura ignorant Indian. Anyone who identifies themselves as Muslim becomes Razakaars or Jamaatis. Got nothing more to say about intolerant bigots.


M.M.Ali said:


> Mahmud Ali was a Bengali-Assamese politician in British India, in East Bengal/East Pakistan, and then in modern Pakistan. He was the secretary-general of the All-India Muslim League (Assam) with Bhashani as its president. During the Freedom Movement he worked towards making Assam a part of the eastern wing of Pakistan but a referendum was not giving in the province. He later concentrated his efforts to make Sylhet a part of Pakistan and the referendum was a success..After the creation of Pakistan, and after Jinnah and Liaquat passed away, he left the Muslim League as he saw the government drifting away from the needs of the people. He then founded Pakistan's first secular political party the Ganatantri Dal. The Dal demanded equal rights for all citizens regardless of their religion, abolition of feudalism, rights for women, and the demand for Bangla as a national language along with Urdu. He also published a Bangla language newspaper the Nao Belal which played an important role in propagating Bengali rights. The Dal later merged with the United Front and it won the elections defeating the Muslim League in 1954. He was the sole member of the assembly to speak out against the 'One-Unit' scheme which divided Pakistan into two provinces - East and West Pakistan. After Ayub Khan and the bureacracy imposed military rule in 1958 he spent the next decade fighting for the restoration on parliamentary democracy. He also supported Miss Jinnah in the Presidential elections against Ayub. Ali believed that Bengalis were more politically advanced and wanted a united Pakistan where Bengalis would guide the country with their majority and often said that "the western provinces need Bengal politically and Bengal needs the western provinces economically." He did not approve of Mujib's politics but argued for his release after the Fall of Dacca.
> 
> Bangla Language and Script
> 
> Mahmud Ali was strongly against any effort to impose Arabic as a language in Pakistan, and did not favour any attempt to change or "Islamasize" the language.
> 
> I'm of the same opinion. I think it betrays a degree of insecurity and an inferiority complex when speaking in favour of this absurd change. Also, those advocating the adoption of the Arabic/Farsi script are undermining both their culture and heritage, and the tolerant nature of Islam. Do we hear of Indonesians or Malaysians arguing in favour of this?
> 
> Another thing I don't understand is this half-baked attempt to adopt something which religion has nothing to do with. I mean why just change the script? Is the language itself not Indo-Aryan? Either way, I think this childish idea should be tossed away.
> 
> Arabic has nothing to do with Islam itself.
> 
> Lastly, just in case you were wondering, I'm an ethnic Bengali who grew up in Pakistan.



Listen the thing is, as a Muslim I refuse to write in the same or similar script as it is written in Hindu Sanskrit Vedas. If you as Muslim think of Vedas more highly of Quran then your brain is literally screwed. Anyway we were just talking about adopting Nastaliq script (not Naskh), but the language won't be changed. And why won't you want that? Why would you want to protect the Hindu marka script?

And you know most renowned authors and poets in Bangla Literature are all West Bengali Hindus even if Bangladesh also have literary geniuses they don't get that much recognition as those Hindus. Because the Bangla education uses their kind of Bangla and so most of us suck at it. Don't you think that is injustice!? West Bengali kind of Bangla is different from us and is difficult for us to understand because their one is so formal and sounds so fake. Why as Bangladeshis would we want to strive for the way Hindu Bangla is spoken or written! **** shudho bhasha! It's not part of Bangladesh! No one here speaks that way! So where does it come from!? Why are we forced to learn that shitty kind of Bangla?? 

Bangladeshis need to be distinguishable from West Bengal because we are overshadowed by them. We have nothing for our own and everything is based on their standard. What a shame even though BD is a sovereign country of it's own but we are still servants to those West Bangals! Absolutely embarrassing!!


Al-zakir said:


> Urdu script derived from Arabic and Farsi. Most Muslims know the Arabic script. So it's no brainer to replaced current Bangla script with Arabic based script example bellow. Average Bangladeshi Muslims can adopt Arabic based script within 3 month max. Having Arabic based script will eliminate Hindu leaning devangiri script and subsequent effect will enable us to revive musalmani Bangla(Farsi based) spoken by our Muslim forefather.
> 
> But first Hindu loving Awami league and Tagore worshipping Islamic named murtids Bengali intellectuals must be eliminated from scene.



It's okay brother. Many people are realising this and once again we will soon see the light. Remember, the good always prevail. For now, we should try and spread this message to everyone and make them see the truth.

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## Joe Shearer

It is embarrassing to read something so utterly jejune.

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## Soms

Joe Shearer said:


> It is embarrassing to read something so utterly jejune.


Dude ..using jejune here is utterly preposterous...isn't everyone here a jackass erudite?
No one will dare to quote your logical post made earlier


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## kalu_miah

Joe Shearer said:


> @kalu_miah
> 
> 
> 
> All my references are entirely, and solely, from those supplied by Bangladeshi posters. This is deliberate, to avoid competing to supply references and sources that uniquely support our different stands. Akbar as the first ruler to formally declare Persian as the official language is taken from Alam's Persian Language in Mughal Politics.
> 
> Regarding your point
> 
> where are the citations? Well-established in what way? As the language of the rulers? As the language of the ruling class? As the language of administration? As a lingua franca?
> 
> You are referring to the Sultanate set up by Turkish slaves, as you are aware, having mentioned their fading away as Turkish dynasties; it seems odd that they should use Persian rather than Turkish. I am willing to take your word for it, but it would be nice if you had cited references. Khwarezm and Central Asia were the idiom of Turan, according to Amir Khusrau, not the idiom of Persia: this too is from your reference, Alam.
> 
> The Slave Sultans were succeeded by Khalji (Turks) Tughlaq and Lodi: none of them Persian.
> 
> The administrative language was never Persian; therefore, Persian was one of the courtly, civil languages used in and around the court of Delhi. It is moot how much it was really used in Bengal. The experience of the other independent sultanates - Gujarat, the successors of the Bahamanis, that is, the Qutb Shahi, the Adil Shahi and the other three - was identical to that of Bengal: some early use of Persian being rapidly replaced by a mixture of Persian and 'Hindavi', meaning the local language.
> 
> I sincerely hope you have an open mind on the subject. I do, and my conclusions are increasingly in one direction.
> 
> I haven't had time to go through the paper on Turks, Mongols and a Persian ruling class, but shall do so shortly.



Have you had time to go through that paper yet? You may want to look at that thread and another thread I just posted:
Turks, Mongols and a Persian Secretarial Class in Early Delhi Sultanate | Page 3
Nomad vs Sedentary and spread of Islam


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## Joe Shearer

kalu_miah said:


> Have you had time to go through that paper yet? You may want to look at that thread and another thread I just posted:
> Turks, Mongols and a Persian Secretarial Class in Early Delhi Sultanate | Page 3
> Nomad vs Sedentary and spread of Islam



Very sorry, exams going on (last one y'day) and last minute panics about the old batch going out to summer internships, and new batch to be interviewed. 

I'll get back asap. Bear with me.


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## khair_ctg

> Eaton's research indicates that *the preponderance of Muslims in Bengal at least was not due to migration*, but to a demographic explosion linked to the rapid expansion of agriculture in east Bengal.





Joe Shearer said:


> Here the difference between the conventional 'Migration' theory used to account for the huge preponderance of Muslims in the east of Bengal and *what Eaton is referring to is that the conventional theory relates to supposed mass migration from central Asia and from Afghanistan. This does not seem to have happened in Bengal.*
> 
> Instead, what Eaton is clearly referring to, in the context of his passage, is migration from the western parts of Bengal itself, where the shift away of the waters to eastern branches led to the diminution of trade and industry, as well as an underlying diminution of agriculture. This is when the early moves of European traders to the banks of the Hooghly - the Danish in Srirampore, the French in Chandannagar, the Portuguese and the Dutch in Chinsurah - proved to be false starts due to the gradual drying up of that distributary.


at first you stated that migration is NOT the cause for the preponderance of Muslims in Bengal. and then you said that the type of migration Eaton talks about is actually West-to-East migration within Bengal. 

migration is a premium cause for the Muslim population in Bengal. the migrations from Central Asia and Persia-Afghanistan were in many successive waves throughout the centuries, as it happened for the rest of South Asia. each of these waves had this characteristic two components i.e. at first the colonizing force came and later the settlers who took up administrative positions, formed the military, gave dawah or engaged in trades. the West-East migration is not what the paragraph i quoted was referring to

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## kalu_miah

khair_ctg said:


> at first you stated that migration is NOT the cause for the preponderance of Muslims in Bengal. and then you said that the type of migration Eaton talks about is actually West-to-East migration within Bengal.
> 
> migration is a premium cause for the Muslim population in Bengal. the migrations from Central Asia and Persia-Afghanistan were in many successive waves throughout the centuries, as it happened for the rest of South Asia. each of these waves had this characteristic two components i.e. at first the colonizing force came and later the settlers who took up administrative positions, formed the military, gave dawah or engaged in trades. the West-East migration is not what the paragraph i quoted was referring to



I will make a separate thread on this migration issue.

What Eaton is saying is the migration is not the main determining factor for majority Muslim presence in eastern Bengal, because migration happened in other places in South Asia too which are geographically far way from Western South Asia (present day Pakistan). Even before Delhi Sultanate, areas in Pakistan's south have been within previous Muslim empires such as Khilafa Rashidun and Umayyad. So in Sindh and Balochistan Islamic rule was established by 711 AD. Whereas rest of Pakistan came under Ghaznavids by 997 AD. This is the reason why we see Muslim majority in those areas as they had more time for conversion and they are next door neighbor to Muslim West Asia.

From start of Delhi Sultanate with Ghorids in 1211 AD, most parts of rest of South Asia came under Muslim rule, but out of all these areas in South Asia, no place other than eastern Bengal, which is quite faraway from continuous areas of Muslim world, suddenly we see a Muslim majority area. This is Eaton's thesis, to find out the reason why we have this strange situation. The result of course is that during partition we became the most vocal Pakistan supporters and became separate from India as East Pakistan and now we have a country called Bangladesh. Precisely because of this strange phenomenon, close 180 million Bengal Muslims, roughly around 11-12% of global Muslim population is surrounded by a majority non-Muslim population and Bangladesh has such a precarious strategic and geopolitical situation.

From my reading of Eaton's book he makes several things clear:

- Migration of non South Asian Muslims happened in Bengal just like it did in other places of South Asia, during Delhi Sultanate
- but during Mughal era Bengal had a special agrarian expansion project, cutting off jungles to create rice fields from forested areas of eastern Bengal
- in this project, just like other efforts like expansionist war efforts in Southern Hindustan, Mughal's were aided by Rajputs as military allies and Marwary businessmen as money lenders and Hindu and Muslim local Zamindars as absentee landlords or main or sub leaseholder Zamindars, many of whom were former Mughal officials or soldiers
- in the field, the clearing group was led by Pirs or holy men, whereas the people that did the actual work were local fishermen who never before came in contact with Caste Hindu Brahmanic order, such as Adivashi also known and Charal or Chondal, eventually these people slowly became murids of the Pirs and came to the fold of Islam. In some places Mughal administration sponsored Mandirs as well, where these Adivashi's came within Hindu caste system as Shudra's or untouchables. The goal of the Mughals was to increase revenue and they were very religion neutral about accomplishing their imperial goals, as can be seen with their alliance and partnership with Hindu's which is not same as earlier Delhi Sultanate. I have a special explanation about this phenomenon, I believe this has to do it Mongol code of Yassa, first introduced by Chinggis Khaan who started the tradition of extreme tolerance towards all religion and the policy of no forcible conversion:
Yassa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He [Chingis-Khan] ordered that all religions were to be respected and that no preference was to be shown to any of them. All this he commanded in order that it might be agreeable to Heaven. {al-Makrizi}
Leaders of a religion, lawyers, physicians, scholars, preachers, monks, persons who are dedicated to religious practice, the Muezzin (this latter appearing to be from the later period of Khubilai Khan unless this was further translated there had been no specific reference made to any Muezzin and cities including mosques were levelled), physicians and those who bathe the bodies of the dead are to be freed from public charges. {Al-Makrizi}
Verkhovensky reports that the Yassa begins with an exhortation to honor men of all nations based upon their virtues. This pragmatic admonition is borne out by the ethnic mixture created by Genghis Khan in the Mongolian medieval army for purpose of unity (Ezent Gueligen Mongolyn), the United Mongol Warriors. The origin of the word Mongol, "mong", means "brave". Thus at the time it may have meant as much an army of "the brave", as an army from or made up of people from Mongolia.

Genghis Khan consulted teachers of religions, such as imáms and probably rabbis and Christian priests, in compiling his law codex.
Chingiz Khan: The Life and Legacy of an Empire Builder - Anwarul Haque Haqqi - Google Books
Medieval India: From Sultanat to the Mughals Part - II - Satish Chandra - Google Books

The net result is that in Bengal, migration of non-South Asian Muslims and South Asian Muslims of foreign origin (Ashraf) from outside Bengal, happened in much greater scale than in other areas of South Asia. The majority or the bulk of Muslims however were converted from local people, as they were the main work force working under these Muslim pirs. So I believe these Pirs, along with former Mughal officials and soldiers who become Zamindars and sub-lease holder petty Zamindars, are the ancestors of our rural gentry. while Urban Ashraf were exclusively of foreign origin from way back in Sultanate era, a class I believe became much bigger in Bengal than in other areas of South Asia, to run the Mughal agro-industrial project.

One of the difficulty is that most people in South Asia do not keep meticulous ancestry records such as those in Korean Chokbo for example:
Genealogy book - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But genetic tests are getting cheaper, so it will come in handy in the future to get much more detailed data for research in these areas. The other factor to keep in mind is that over time, specially during colonial era, many Ashraf (foreign origin Muslims) became poor and intermarried with converted non-Ashraf Muslims, making the population more and more homogeneous over time and making it difficult to visually detect foreign genetic markers.

I will open a separate thread on this migration issue and present the material from Eaton's book. If we go into this issue too much in this thread, which is mainly about language and scripts, it will clutter this thread too much. As you can see people are already complaining.

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## Joe Shearer

No complaints here. Write on, @kalu_miah (but change your ridiculous nick).


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## The Snow Queen

Joe Shearer said:


> It is embarrassing to read something so utterly jejune.



Jejune? Who? Me? Are you saying that to me? I must admit that I have serious ADHD and I can be extremely impulsive at times; never mind. 

All the same, you are just another example of a typical narcissistic Indian. There is no point in explaining anything to you people. If I want, I can write it as eloquently and well articulate as I want. But I didn't because I didn't want to. Do you have any problem with that? No one cares.




Soms said:


> No one will dare to quote your logical post made earlier



Oh, just shut it.


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## IamBengali

Why don't you start first writting it in Arabic script? I promise I will file a petition first if my darling snow queen writes Bangla in Arabic script.

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## Joe Shearer

The Snow Queen said:


> Jejune? Who? Me? Are you saying that to me? I must admit that I have serious ADHD and I can be extremely impulsive at times; never mind.
> 
> All the same, you are just another example of a typical narcissistic Indian. There is no point in explaining anything to you people. If I want, I can write it as eloquently and well articulate as I want. But I didn't because I didn't want to. Do you have any problem with that? No one cares.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, just shut it.



I note with awe that you deliberately avoid writing eloquent and articulate posts.

Does it hurt?



IamBengali said:


> Why don't you start first writting it in Arabic script? I promise I will file a petition first if my darling snow queen writes Bangla in Arabic script.



You have fallen into error. 

The motto is, "Do as I say, not do as I do."


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## jandk

Azizam said:


> That's a person belonged to a minority bro. One does not simply base stereotypes of a country based on minorities bro.
> 
> Again where's your picture? I really want to see you prince.
> 
> By the way, where are you from? As I recall some African country.
> 
> Why are you so butthurt about my post? It seems you are another wannabe-Middle Eastern.



He is probably Iranian

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## Soms

The Snow Queen said:


> Jejune? Who? Me? Are you saying that to me? I must admit that I have serious ADHD and I can be extremely impulsive at times; never mind.
> 
> All the same, you are just another example of a typical narcissistic Indian. There is no point in explaining anything to you people. If I want, I can write it as eloquently and well articulate as I want. But I didn't because I didn't want to. Do you have any problem with that? No one cares.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, just shut it.


Did it create a an intense posterior oedema?

BTW a dose of Atomoxetine might benefit you a lot


----------



## Joe Shearer

I am leaving this thread.

@kalu_miah

There was a superior poster named @eastwatch . Can you open a new thread, and invite him to take part? He always has a great deal of information and excellent analysis.


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## Azizam

jandk said:


> He is probably Iranian


No he's not.


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## IamBengali

Why are West Bengali Bangla accent and Bangladeshi Bangla accent so different from each other? We can understand what West Bengalis say but do they understand what we say? They speak in bookish way. Even a rickshaw pullar in Kolkata speak in bookish style Bangla but here in BD everyone speaks in accented Bangla. Khaichi, Korchi, Kormu, Khamu, Korba, Khaba. If I say Ami kheyechi,everybody laughs at me.

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## Joe Shearer

IamBengali said:


> Why are West Bengali Bangla accent and Bangladeshi Bangla accent so different from each other. We can understand what West Bengalis say but do they understand what we say? They speak in bookish way. Even a rickshaw pullar in Kolkata speak in bookish style Bangla but here in BD everyone speaks in accented Bangla. Khaichi, Korchi, Kormu, Khamu, Korba, Khaba. If I say Ami kheyechi,everybody laughs at me.



I suspect that the adoption of one dialect, the north 24 Parganas-Hooghly dialect, as the 'official' dialect may have something to do with this. That dialect, as happened in England, too, with the standard dialect of English being used progressively for literature, and for orthography, whenever writing required a choice, became the dialect which we read. As a result, you understand the 'standard' written language, which was just one of the dialects earlier, but those whose dialect it was, more or less, that got adopted don't understand other spoken dialects quite so well. 

It is, precisely, the bookish versus the day-to-day normal.

Incidentally, there are west Bengali dialects too, and one can differentiate people on that basis, although not so easily as east Bengali dialects (you do realise that there are many). Even the southern 24 Parganas people, those on the borders of the Sundarbans, have a different dialect, which is quite distinct: it eliminates 'R's, rather like some English aristocrats, and has other peculiarities.


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## Freedom_Democracy

Why are you asking this on a pakistani forum?


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## genmirajborgza786

The Snow Queen said:


> Should the people of Bangladesh really do away with Devanagari script of Bangla and go for Arabic/Persian script? To Islamise our Language and bring back our real roots of East Bengal? The way our forefathers used to write and maybe talk?
> 
> I have an idea that our first initiative should be to make a Petition. And perhaps, it is a small step to a big change! We want your opinions of all the people here, and then decide if we will make this Petition.
> 
> By the way, I myself cannot make this petition because I am scared to go for this all by myself and I don't know much about the History as some of you here knows... We need someone who is wise, intelligent and knowledgeable to make this Petition for us and can add it to the description of the Petition, which will be able to convince most people to sign.
> 
> I think Change.org and GoPetition are a good places to start.
> 
> Change.org - The world's platform for change
> 
> Petition Templates, Samples & Examples | GoPetition
> 
> @kalu_miah @MBI Munshi @aazidane @khair_ctg @Saiful Islam @Zahur Ahmed Chowdhury @kobiraaz
> 
> I probably have noticed some you guys here being huge supporters of this movement. Should we first start with a Petition?



First of all, there is nothing Hindu about Devanagari script , it is Sanskrit & Not Hindu , now South Asian Nastaliq has more Persian then Arabic in it , & Persian is not the language of the Holy Qur'an , just because it looks like Arabic does not makes it Arabic , Dubai looks a lot like Doha but That does not makes Dubai into Doha , what is Arabic is Arabic & what is Persian & Urdu is Persian & Urdu , just because something looks like something Doesn't means it is the same , so no Bengali is fine the way it is , Indonesia has the worlds largest Muslim population but they use Bahasa Indonesian

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## dray

genmirajborgza786 said:


> First of all, there is nothing Hindu about Devanagari script , it is Sanskrit & Not Hindu , now South Asian Nastaliq has more Persian then Arabic in it , & Persian is not the language of the Holy Qur'an , just because it looks like Arabic does not makes it Arabic , Dubai looks a lot like Doha but That does not makes Dubai into Doha , what is Arabic is Arabic & what is Persian & Urdu is Persian & Urdu , just because something looks like something Doesn't means it is the same , so no Bengali is fine the way it is , Indonesia has the world largest Muslim population but they use Bahasa Indonesian



People like you with liberal views and logical thinking are the biggest hindrance in the way of Bangladeshis becoming pure.  Our fellow Bangladeshis here are just trying to get rid of the malaun Hindu influence in their life. Can't you see how RAW is making Bangladesh a semi-Hindu state with a Hindu language like Bengali, Hindu cultural malpractices like Rabindrik culture and Rabindrasangeet, Hindu like festivals like celebrating Bengali New Year (Nababarsha), even the name of their country is a typically Hindu sounding "Bangladesh", and their national flag has no stars or moon...so unislamic! Can't you see how Indian films and TV channels are spreading Hindu culture in Bangladesh? And Devnagari is a Hindu script..it has "Dev" in it, though Bengali uses a different script, but it is still not a holy and pious script like Arabic. The only way our Bangladeshi brothers can save themselves from nefarious Hindu conspiracy is by completely shifting to Arabic language and script. And we should support them to be on the right side of history. 

@iajdani @asad71 @MBI Munshi @Bilal9 @kobiraaz @bongbang

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## Freedom_Democracy

Rain Man said:


> People like you with liberal views and logical thinking are the biggest hindrance in the way of Bangladeshis becoming pure.  Our fellow Bangladeshis here are just trying to get rid of the malaun Hindu influence in their life. Can't you see how RAW is making Bangladesh a semi-Hindu state with a Hindu language like Bengali, Hindu cultural malpractices like Rabindrik culture and Rabindrasangeet, Hindu like festivals like celebrating Bengali New Year (Nababarsha), even the name of their country is a typically Hindu sounding "Bangladesh", and their national flag has no stars or moon...so unislamic! Can't you see how Indian films and TV channels are spreading Hindu culture in Bangladesh? And Devnagari is a Hindu script..it has "Dev" in it, though Bengali uses a different script, but it is still not a holy and pious script like Arabic. The only way our Bangladeshi brothers can save themselves from nefarious Hindu conspiracy is by completely shifting to Arabic language and script. And we should support them to be on the right side of history.
> 
> @iajdani @asad71 @MBI Munshi @Bilal9 @kobiraaz @bongbang


But bengalis are hindu by blood isn't it


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## BanglaBhoot

Rain Man said:


> People like you with liberal views and logical thinking are the biggest hindrance in the way of Bangladeshis becoming pure.  Our fellow Bangladeshis here are just trying to get rid of the malaun Hindu influence in their life. Can't you see how RAW is making Bangladesh a semi-Hindu state with a Hindu language like Bengali, Hindu cultural malpractices like Rabindrik culture and Rabindrasangeet, Hindu like festivals like celebrating Bengali New Year (Nababarsha), even the name of their country is a typically Hindu sounding "Bangladesh", and their national flag has no stars or moon...so unislamic! Can't you see how Indian films and TV channels are spreading Hindu culture in Bangladesh? And Devnagari is a Hindu script..it has "Dev" in it, though Bengali uses a different script, but it is still not a holy and pious script like Arabic. The only way our Bangladeshi brothers can save themselves from nefarious Hindu conspiracy is by completely shifting to Arabic language and script. And we should support them to be on the right side of history.
> 
> @iajdani @asad71 @MBI Munshi @Bilal9 @kobiraaz @bongbang



The Jamaat-e-Islami needs you. Please join immediately ...


----------



## Freedom_Democracy

Freedom_Democracy said:


> But bengalis are hindu by blood isn't it


Not to be rude but this is begaladesh's issue stop making it so personal this is the reason why pakistan is going through problems these issues will incite becoming a dravidan state itself rather than stopping the indianization and then don't complain that why baloch and other natives start to stay away from each other

This is the reason why we are suffering its because people become too personal to other's issue so much that they start to destroy their own culture.
Yes you guys are acting like Arab wannabes.
Its like interfering in the israeli issues so much that people will think that you're an israeli too and then get bashed by others pakistanis..
So don't complain that why people call pakis hindu its not that we're hindus we're indo arayans and persians but because some over confident pakis have a habit of involving themselves with hindus and other south east asians


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## Freedom_Democracy

Rain Man said:


> People like you with liberal views and logical thinking are the biggest hindrance in the way of Bangladeshis becoming pure.  Our fellow Bangladeshis here are just trying to get rid of the malaun Hindu influence in their life. Can't you see how RAW is making Bangladesh a semi-Hindu state with a Hindu language like Bengali, Hindu cultural malpractices like Rabindrik culture and Rabindrasangeet, Hindu like festivals like celebrating Bengali New Year (Nababarsha), even the name of their country is a typically Hindu sounding "Bangladesh", and their national flag has no stars or moon...so unislamic! Can't you see how Indian films and TV channels are spreading Hindu culture in Bangladesh? And Devnagari is a Hindu script..it has "Dev" in it, though Bengali uses a different script, but it is still not a holy and pious script like Arabic. The only way our Bangladeshi brothers can save themselves from nefarious Hindu conspiracy is by completely shifting to Arabic language and script. And we should support them to be on the right side of history.
> 
> @iajdani @asad71 @MBI Munshi @Bilal9 @kobiraaz @bongbang


If you want to help bengal change their culture and stuff then don't bring this issue in pakistan
Before we start to loose our heritage and become dravidans like bengalis 
And when these separatist groups rise then remember that this time they'll be right and they're doing this to protect their true blood and culture.
This is the same issue we had when some idiots spat on the **** beautiful culture just to steal the arab culture which was humiliating after that incident many pakistanis from the west region started to distance themselves from east region pakis.
I am not a liberal but i know that i have to protect my heritage.
Look at the Arabs now look how their culture is being stolen by israel and look how their culture is being influenced by desi bollywood crap its because they became too personal with indians.Thats why they're racist so they can protect their heritage.


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## PARAS

Freedom_Democracy said:


> But bengalis are hindu by blood isn't it


Lol even u pakeez are Hindus by blood . Just because u were forcibly converted and your great grandmothers raped, which resulted in the neanderthal looking people in western pakistan , by Muslims does not mean u start dissociating yourselves from Hindus. Bangladeshis on the other hand willingly converted because they felt it would rid them of the caste based prejudice from upper caste Hindu bengalis if they embraced islam

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## genmirajborgza786

Freedom_Democracy said:


> But bengalis are hindu by blood isn't it



considering the Vedas originated in present day Pakistan , many revered personalities of Hinduism like Draupati, Pandav, Luv & Kush , Saraswati & Shiva , takshashila , Kautilya (Chankaya) , _Arthaśāstra _(one of the most well recognized book of strategies of taxila itself ), Panani & not to mention Indus valley , Sindhu all of it according to Hinduism having a strong connection with the land , heck you guys beat both West Bengal & Bangladesh hands down when it comes to Hinduism ( that too Serious Hinduism ) so should i ask you that are your fellow countrymen Hindus by blood ? how would you feel _eh_ , so just like you people , Bengali's are also not Hindus by blood , & by the way one does not becomes Hindus or Muslims or Christians by blood rather one becomes by Believe (having faith)

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## dray

MBI Munshi said:


> The Jamaat-e-Islami needs you. Please join immediately ...



I always suspected you to be a RAW agent acting like an India hater, now this post cleared all doubts! 

Btw, I need to be on the good books of @Luffy 500 , just in case I ever need to visit Bangladesh and come back alive!

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## Saiful Islam

Freedom_Democracy said:


> But bengalis are hindu by blood isn't it



Sorry how the f-ck is one "Hindu by blood"? Since when was Hinduism an ethnic group/race? Even most Pakistanis were converts to Hinduism that doesn't exclude you guys (the proof is in the surnames that some of you retain). Most Muslims in the subcontinent were previously Hindus or Buddhists. Please come correct, initially Buddhism was the popular faith in E.Bengal hence empires like Pala.


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## asad71

Freedom_Democracy said:


> But bengalis are hindu by blood isn't it




No, we are not. We had received The Message during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet pbuh. You Pakistanis were Hindus till about 900 AD when Amir Sabuktagin took Peshawar.

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## Freedom_Democracy

asad71 said:


> No, we are not. We had received The Message during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet pbuh. You Pakistanis were Hindus till about 900 AD when Amir Sabuktagin took Peshawar.


Then why do you look brown dravidans?


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## Freedom_Democracy

Saiful Islam said:


> Sorry how the f-ck is one "Hindu by blood"? Since when was Hinduism an ethnic group/race? Even most Pakistanis were converts to Hinduism that doesn't exclude you guys (the proof is in the surnames that some of you retain). Most Muslims in the subcontinent were previously Hindus or Buddhists. Please come correct, initially Buddhism was the popular faith in E.Bengal hence empires like Pala.


They're dravidans


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## Freedom_Democracy

UDAYCAMPUS said:


> I DON'T BELIEVE MY EYES..........where has the bengali nationalism and pride gone??!!!you guys are trying to change the script of the language your mother taught you,for Allah's sake its your mother language people respect it! here i see you people have started sowing seeds of her destruction??!......why are u guys so bent on becoming arabs


They're suffering from inferiority complex thats why they're on pakistan forum so they can hide their identity


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## 24 Hours

Freedom_Democracy said:


> But bengalis are hindu by blood isn't it


How can one be a religion by blood? Religion is a personal choice, you can be born one and if you want you can change it later. 
Well.....not in your country at least.



Rain Man said:


> Btw, I need to be on the good books of @Luffy 500 , just in case I ever need to visit Bangladesh and come back alive!


And why would you ever need to visit Bangladesh? Reading your posts leaves me suspicious. I'm watching you, ISIS recruiter.

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## Freedom_Democracy

Saiful Islam said:


> Let's not be spineless here, people here already think we suffer from an inferiority complex, which we do not...The common Bangladeshi man does not care about his lineage, unless you come across one of those Sufi's who care about their 'silsila' and tariqah lol. What I'm peeved about is the fact some people here are denying Musulmani Bangla, Jalalabadi Nagri or Puthir Gan however you say it, the fact is it has been here for centuries and quite evident in most Bangladeshi families, you just have to converse with them to know the difference between Musulmani Bangla and the Bengalis speak over the border, the word "Malaun" itself is a word Bengali Muslims used towards Hindus.





SHK said:


> How can one be a religion by blood? Religion is a personal choice, you can be born one and if you want you can change it later.
> Well.....not in your country at least.
> 
> 
> And why would you ever need to visit Bangladesh? Reading your posts leaves me suspicious. I'm watching you, ISIS recruiter.


So wait then if religion is not the thing then why are bangalis here pleading for arabic?
They're Dravidans not Arayans not Persian not Indics and not Euro-Arayans
So why are they here on a **** forum?


----------



## Freedom_Democracy

PARAS said:


> Lol even u pakeez are Hindus by blood . Just because u were forcibly converted and your great grandmothers raped, which resulted in the neanderthal looking people in western pakistan , by Muslims does not mean u start dissociating yourselves from Hindus. Bangladeshis on the other hand willingly converted because they felt it would rid them of the caste based prejudice from upper caste Hindu bengalis if they embraced islam


This old desi card isn't working oh yea cuz i am baloch thats why are you bengalis so inferiority complexed don't you have self respect you all look like indians and way darker your features are like burmese people then why are you on a pakistani forum crying to become an arab?
Arab wannabe much?
Even Arabs treat you like garbage


----------



## Saiful Islam

Freedom_Democracy said:


> So wait then if religion is not the thing then why are bangalis here pleading for arabic?
> They're Dravidans not Arayans not Persian not Indics and not Euro-Arayans
> So why are they here on a **** forum?



You learnt a few words that are regularly tossed around this forum and all of a sudden you're some big shot anthropologist. What language is the Qur'an written in? No Muslim can possibly be "pleading for arabic" when we our holy book is in that language. 

Apparently Bengalis are Dravidians  With that logic then 50% Pakistani blood is Dravidian. 

We're not on a **** forum but a Pakistani forum. It's a popular site that's why people from all over, please ask the same question to other nationalities.


----------



## Freedom_Democracy

I remember talking to a burmese guy couple of weeks ago i asked him that things are going so bad in burma so like whats wrong so who are monks and who are rohinya he said monks are asians but burmese muslims are Arab #smh 
He spoke fluent bangali he doesn't look anywhere near to an arab but then again inferiority complex so why the hell are you south asiabs doing this?
Don't you know that you're destroying ur own heritage and remember when you change yiur culture people will treat you badly even more than usual this is the reason as a **** i don't like you guys at all


----------



## Saiful Islam

Freedom_Democracy said:


> This old desi card isn't working oh yea cuz i am baloch thats why are you bengalis so inferiority complexed don't you have self respect you all look like indians and way darker your features are like burmese people then why are you on a pakistani forum crying to become an arab?
> Arab wannabe much?
> Even Arabs treat you like garbage



There are people with fat pockets in Saudi who treat a lot of nationalities like shit INCLUDING Pakistanis, you guys are no exception. My father lived there for 25+ years and has witnessed enough man handling of Pakistanis by Arabs + the amount of fights between Filipinos and Pakistanis and you'd never guess the result.


----------



## Freedom_Democracy

Islam is not about replacing your culture and if your using islam to change your identity then you're worst than anything 
I am a baloch i speak afghan,Persian and arabic too (just for communication)
Its because my blood and heritage is iranian and afghan so how dare you south asians even think about this thing?


----------



## Saiful Islam

Freedom_Democracy said:


> Islam is not about replacing your culture and if your using islam to change your identity then you're worst than anything
> I am a baloch i speak afghan,Persian and arabic too (just for communication)
> Its because my blood and heritage is iranian and afghan so how dare you south asians even think about this thing?



You speak about Islam yet you fail to see people without look at the colour of their skin? No Bangladeshis do not suffer from an inferiority complex we are dark or light or whatever and proud you go to Bangladesh and no one gives a shit about skin colour or lineage because we have other things to worry about but trust me I know other South Asian countries and they're obsessed with the above mentioned things, I don't want to mention names but it seems to be ingrained in some cultures and countries than others.


----------



## Freedom_Democracy

At one point in history pakistanis like punjabis started to fantasize about the Arab dream leaving their origins and at that point the public respect for my people became poor but after years my people realized that doing so will not do anything but bring shame to ancestry so they stopped so thats why pakistan is respected bangals are still respected but if this things grows bengalis will loose respect do you know that gulf arabs are treated like shit in the U.S but not levant arabs why?
Levant Arabs promote their culture and praise it while gulf arabs try to Copy americans you can see these saudi women dying their hair blonde.


----------



## 24 Hours

Freedom_Democracy said:


> So wait then if religion is not the thing then why are bangalis here pleading for arabic?
> They're Dravidans not Arayans not Persian not Indics and not Euro-Arayans
> So why are they here on a **** forum?


Very few Bengalis are pleading for Arabic, what the OP posted will never happen. And no, we are an Indo-Aryan ethnic group. Changing the script will never happen, the amount of time and effort to change the script is too much and is not worth the effort. It's just people talking of ideas without an idea to put that idea to action.

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## Freedom_Democracy

SHK said:


> Very few Bengalis are pleading for Arabic, what the OP posted will never happen. And no, we are an Indo-Aryan ethnic group. Changing the script will never happen, the amount of time and effort to change the script is too much and is not worth the effort. It's just people talking of ideas without an idea to put that idea to action.


The more patriotic you are the powerful the country will be 
Like in Pakistan we are from Persians,Indo-Arayan,Euro-Arayan,Indo-Persian but every one is proud of their origins look at india people try to copy other cultures and looks and look what happened to them.
I hope that bengalis stand strong and avoid other problems don't do what we did 
Salam


----------



## Freedom_Democracy

I wish you and Bangladesh the best 
Keep your heads up and *** down brother this is how we survived


----------



## PARAS

Freedom_Democracy said:


> This old desi card isn't working oh yea cuz i am baloch thats why are you bengalis so inferiority complexed don't you have self respect you all look like indians and way darker your features are like burmese people then why are you on a pakistani forum crying to become an arab?
> Arab wannabe much?
> Even Arabs treat you like garbage


Lol i am not bangladeshi u f*cking neanderthal . can't u see my indian flags .


----------



## dray

asad71 said:


> No, we are not. We had received The Message during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet pbuh. You Pakistanis were Hindus till about 900 AD when Amir Sabuktagin took Peshawar.



While I am waiting for the next revelation about Holy Prophet pbuh 's birth place somewhere in Bangladesh, I am also curious to know what Bangladeshis were before they received 'The Message'? 



SHK said:


> How can one be a religion by blood? Religion is a personal choice, you can be born one and if you want you can change it later.
> Well.....not in your country at least.



It's the water from river Ganges and Brahmaputra, it infuses special Hindu genes in ones DNA, check for HBC (Hindu Blood Cells) in your blood.  



> And why would you ever need to visit Bangladesh? Reading your posts leaves me suspicious. I'm watching you, ISIS recruiter.



Sorry, I can't tell you that I am a RAW agent waiting for a 'field job' in Bangladesh, it's beyond top secret!


----------



## 24 Hours

Rain Man said:


> While I am waiting for the next revelation about Holy Prophet pbuh 's birth place somewhere in Bangladesh, I am also curious to know what Bangladeshis were before they received 'The Message'?
> 
> 
> 
> It's the water from river Ganges and Brahmaputra, it infuses special Hindu genes in ones DNA, check for HBC (Hindu Blood Cells) in your blood.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I can't tell you that I am a RAW agent waiting for a 'field job' in Bangladesh, it's beyond top secret!


I believe asad71 was joking, during the prophet's (pbuh) lifetime the Pala Empire was not even established then. 

Also, with all that pollution in the Ganges I'd be concerned if it infuses anything in your blood.

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## Freedom_Democracy

PARAS said:


> Lol i am not bangladeshi u f*cking neanderthal . can't u see my indian flags .


Why the hell are you here?
I used a pest killer and still no luck 
Did your whitening cream bottle finish
You inbred monkey

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## Freedom_Democracy

@Horus please ban this indian guy here he wamts some whitening lotion and a dna chart to Abraham Lincoln


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## Freedom_Democracy

SHK said:


> I believe asad71 was joking, during the prophet's (pbuh) lifetime the Pala Empire was not even established then.
> 
> Also, with all that pollution in the Ganges I'd be concerned if it infuses anything in your blood.


I didn't see the flag but i knew you were indian since that stupid old reply you made are only made by indians
One of the reason i stopped replying since i knew how indians cry about relating themselves to other races

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## XenoEnsi-14

Or you could just create your very own alphabet and call it Bengali Alphabet.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Freedom_Democracy said:


> Why the hell are you here?
> I used a pest killer and still no luck
> Did your whitening cream bottle finish
> You inbred monkey





WELCOME TO PDF.... I'm also Baloch so nice to see our "numbers" increasing here lol.


P.S: Bangladeshi forum is actually a joke... indian clowns trolling bangladeshis...



XenoEnsi-14 said:


> Or you could just create your very own alphabet and call it Bengali Alphabet.




Meh.., you trolling em too?


----------



## XenoEnsi-14

Freedom_Democracy said:


> You inbred monkey


Coming from someone who went from one inbred nation to another inbred nation.  So what's the percentage of cousin marriages in Saudi Arabia 90%?



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Meh.., you trolling em too?


Yes and no. Sometimes they ask for it anyways. It's what I call tough lessons, if they can't deal with the backfire then don't pull the trigger at all.


----------



## Freedom_Democracy

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> WELCOME TO PDF.... I'm also Baloch so nice to see our "numbers" increasing here lol.
> 
> 
> P.S: Bangladeshi forum is actually a joke... indian clowns trolling bangladeshis...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meh.., you trolling em too?


They think pak is punjab and sindh but its KPK and Baloch which makes them envious and jealous enough to steal it 
I agree


----------



## Freedom_Democracy

XenoEnsi-14 said:


> Coming from someone who went from one inbred nation to another inbred nation.  So what's the percentage of cousin marriages in Saudi Arabia 90%?
> 
> 
> Yes and no. Sometimes they ask for it anyways. It's what I call tough lessons, if they can't deal with the backfire then don't pull the trigger at all.


Atleast we don't use whitening cream use american names and lie about our identity 
Unlike some people who are extremely suffering from inferiority complex copy pasting the same quote "pakis are hindu" 
On every forum 
Especially on yahoo amswers and quora 
And then crying to come to pakistan just so you can marry our people to erase your history so accept it you can't change history and certainly you are not welcome in Pakistan we don't want dravidan blood in our land


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## Freedom_Democracy

Freedom_Democracy said:


> Atleast we don't use whitening cream use american names and lie about our identity
> Unlike some people who are extremely suffering from inferiority complex copy pasting the same quote "pakis are hindu"
> On every forum
> Especially on yahoo amswers and quora
> And then crying to come to pakistan just so you can marry our people to erase your history so accept it you can't change history and certainly you are not welcome in Pakistan we don't want dravidan blood in our land


Ever wondered why you indians are messed and why we are racist against you guys and i am proud to be it you people are full of insecurities finding a way to escape your lineage just like bobby jindaal 
And remember punjab and sindh are north indian region not south or central
And KPK is afghan and Baloch is middleeast and while added you guys are friends of afghan just so you can marry their people to finish your indian identity XD


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## Freedom_Democracy

It proves that you guys are so much insecure that you had to sign up for PDF to just troll people here LMFAO 
For how long do you think you can say "pak ind are friends" just to be relevant to us so you can lie about your origins


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## asad71

Freedom_Democracy said:


> Then why do you look brown dravidans?



1.I have many Pakistani friends who look Dravidian. Sindhi/Makranis/Hazaras don't look Aryan. Northern Area people are more Mongoloid. There are more Hindu Aryans than Pakistani Aryans. I believe you got mixed up between religious identity and racial.
2. In BD we have all sorts because this immensely rich land attracted races throughout history. We literally don't need to sow crops; they grow when seeds are sprinkled. We have Mongloids, Dravidians, Burman, Arabs, Afghans-Persians - all mixed up here.

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## Freedom_Democracy

asad71 said:


> 1.I have many Pakistani friends who look Dravidian. Sindhi/Makranis/Hazaras don't look Aryan. Northern Area people are more Mongoloid. There are more Hindu Aryans than Pakistani Aryans. I believe you got mixed up between religious identity and racial.
> 2. In BD we have all sorts because this immensely rich land attracted races throughout history. We literally don't need to sow crops; they grow when seeds are sprinkled. We have Mongloids, Dravidians, Burman, Arabs, Afghans-Persians - all mixed up here.


Dravidan looking ones are in punjab or sindh but not in north eastern have you ever gone to pakistan?


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## Freedom_Democracy

asad71 said:


> 1.I have many Pakistani friends who look Dravidian. Sindhi/Makranis/Hazaras don't look Aryan. Northern Area people are more Mongoloid. There are more Hindu Aryans than Pakistani Aryans. I believe you got mixed up between religious identity and racial.
> 2. In BD we have all sorts because this immensely rich land attracted races throughout history. We literally don't need to sow crops; they grow when seeds are sprinkled. We have Mongloids, Dravidians, Burman, Arabs, Afghans-Persians - all mixed up here.


Have you ever seen hazaras?
No you haven't so how can you assume they're not arayan while they are and look arayan this is pure BS.
And since when did begals become arayan or arab?
Insecure much?


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## Freedom_Democracy

Freedom_Democracy said:


> Have you ever seen hazaras?
> No you haven't so how can you assume they're not arayan while they are and look arayan this is pure BS.
> And since when did begals become arayan or arab?
> Insecure much?


While you came from south east you're saying that the Euro-Arayan are not Arayans are you nuts?


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## Freedom_Democracy

Freedom_Democracy said:


> Dravidan looking ones are in punjab or sindh but not in north eastern have you ever gone to pakistan?


There is nothing called religious identity and where did i so called used ur so called religious identity 
Are you with that same bengali who tried to say that Prophet Muhammad pbuh sent you bengalis a revelation?
Why are you guys so obsessed with this?
Asking for arabic so you can ditch your original language to prove your inferiority complex?
Whats wrong with you?


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## Freedom_Democracy

Freedom_Democracy said:


> Dravidan looking ones are in punjab or sindh but not in north eastern have you ever gone to pakistan?


I guess you are the same insecure bengali 
Oh i see you're just posting this to just make yourself better with lies 
Peshawar is afghan you're not any where near an afghan so stop it you're embarrassing yourself 
Now say that tajiks are Burmese 
But its thw climate that made us look different 
@Horus we have lunatics here


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## Freedom_Democracy

In any way the facts are facts but your useless and immature cooments on a forum which is not yours is going to prove your lack in sanity but as many people will be going through this after years and years they'll remember that how badly the south east asians are obsessed with other cultures showing inferiority complex and i guess there's no need since the world knows and btw stop living in a fantasy and wake up your comments are as stupid as saying that Japanese are mexicans white latin americans are Japanese 
Thank you for posting this now i will remember that when next time something i will never ever let bemgalis in my country no matter because i know how they'll hide as illegals


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## PARAS

Freedom_Democracy said:


> Why the hell are you here?
> I used a pest killer and still no luck
> Did your whitening cream bottle finish
> You inbred monkey


for the same reason you are here you godforsaken neanderthal . why would u f*cking use a pest killer on yourself ? Maybe this is some old Islamic medicinal cure to ease your butthurt caused by the realisation that your parents are actually siblings you steaming pile of inbred $hit .
I know its hard hard for you to accept your Hindu past and that u are a rape product of invading Muslims which gave you your neanderthal features making you look like a boboon's arse . This land belongs to homo sapiens not neanderthals like u . You uncivilized beings marry your own sisters , mothers and aunts and then having the gall to call others inbred ...lol


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## Freedom_Democracy

PARAS said:


> for the same reason you are here you godforsaken neanderthal . why would u f*cking use a pest killer on yourself ? Maybe this is some old Islamic medicinal cure to ease your butthurt caused by the realisation that your parents are actually siblings you steaming pile of inbred $hit .
> I know its hard hard for you to accept your Hindu past and that u are a rape product of invading Muslims which gave you your neanderthal features making you look like a boboon's arse . This land belongs to homo sapiens not neanderthals like u . You uncivilized beings marry your own sisters , mothers and aunts and then having the gall to call others inbred ...lol


Why are you as an indian lecturing me on my national forum?
Did you change your name to steve and moved to NYC so you can become a mexican?
You're an inbred yourself look at Y!A full of indians claiming to he Ashamed of being indians XD guess they realized that they're rats and no one would accept them not even America XD
Get out of here you insecure inferior scum to me you're a slave


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## PARAS

Freedom_Democracy said:


> Why are you as an indian lecturing me on my national forum?
> Did you change your name to steve and moved to NYC so you can become a mexican?
> You're an inbred yourself look at Y!A full of indians claiming to he Ashamed of being indians XD guess they realized that they're rats and no one would accept them not even America XD
> Get out of here you insecure inferior scum to me you're a slave


Chal yaar gussa thook . tu haara mai jeeta basss...... Ab khush. gile shikwe muaf karo


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## Soulspeek

Bangladeshis are free to abandon their great cultural identity like the Iranians did with their Persian identity.

Be like an Arab. Wear Thawb, write in Arabic, drive camels and call your shonar bangla as 'Al-Banglistan'

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## Freedom_Democracy

SHK said:


> I believe asad71 was joking, during the prophet's (pbuh) lifetime the Pala Empire was not even established then.
> 
> Also, with all that pollution in the Ganges I'd be concerned if it infuses anything in your blood.


Your friend is crazy he's claiming things that are impossible to happen and is falsifying other origins just for his gain is he on drugs he should respect Prophet Mohammed pbub


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## asad71

Freedom_Democracy said:


> Dravidan looking ones are in punjab or sindh but not in north eastern have you ever gone to pakistan?



Yes I spent my youth there.



Freedom_Democracy said:


> Have you ever seen hazaras?
> No you haven't so how can you assume they're not arayan while they are and look arayan this is pure BS.
> And since when did begals become arayan or arab?
> Insecure much?


 I have served for years in Balochistan. A unit I served in was one of the first to induct a platoon of Hazaras.


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## dray

Soulspeek said:


> Bangladeshis are free to abandon their great cultural identity like the Iranians did with their Persian identity.
> 
> Be like an Arab. Wear Thawb, write in Arabic, drive camels and call your shonar bangla as 'Al-Banglistan'



That day is not far when Bangladeshis will wonder..."Ravinderrnath who"?


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## PathanBangladeshi

Soulspeek said:


> Bangladeshis are free to abandon their great cultural identity like the Iranians did with their Persian identity.
> 
> Be like an Arab. Wear Thawb, write in Arabic, drive camels and call your shonar bangla as 'Al-Banglistan'


Well majority of Bangladeshis originate from Afghanistan, Arabia, Iran and Turkey.


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## 24 Hours

PathanBangladeshi said:


> Well majority of Bangladeshis originate from Afghanistan, Arabia, Iran and Turkey.


Why are you still here?


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## Soulspeek

Have they started poppy plantation in Bangladesh too?? 



PathanBangladeshi said:


> Well majority of Bangladeshis originate from Afghanistan, Arabia, Iran and Turkey.

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## Armstrong

@BDforever - Turkiye seh script borrow kar looo Bengali keh liyee ? 

I heard that one of the reasons the Turkish's Latin script was adopted was because it was easier to learn and hence enabled a quicker increase in Turkiye's literacy rate !

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## TopCat

We never used Devanagari script... WTF!!


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## Freedom_Democracy

asad71 said:


> Yes I spent my youth there.
> 
> 
> I have served for years in Balochistan. A unit I served in was one of the first to induct a platoon of Hazaras.


You were never there stop lying and embarrassing yourself why are you so embarrassed of being a bengali


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## rubyjackass

The Snow Queen said:


> Should the people of Bangladesh really do away with Devanagari script of Bangla and go for Arabic/Persian script? To Islamise our Language and bring back our real roots of East Bengal? The way our forefathers used to write and maybe talk?
> 
> I have an idea that our first initiative should be to make a Petition. And perhaps, it is a small step to a big change! We want your opinions of all the people here, and then decide if we will make this Petition.
> 
> By the way, I myself cannot make this petition because I am scared to go for this all by myself and I don't know much about the History as some of you here knows... We need someone who is wise, intelligent and knowledgeable to make this Petition for us and can add it to the description of the Petition, which will be able to convince most people to sign.
> 
> I think Change.org and GoPetition are a good places to start.
> 
> Change.org - The world's platform for change
> 
> Petition Templates, Samples & Examples | GoPetition
> 
> @kalu_miah @MBI Munshi @aazidane @khair_ctg @Saiful Islam @Zahur Ahmed Chowdhury @kobiraaz
> 
> I probably have noticed some you guys here being huge supporters of this movement. Should we first start with a Petition?


Queen jee. Why make a petition? To make other Bangladeshis forced by government to write in Persian script? Instead why don't to simply start writing in the script disregarding others?


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## my2cents

rubyjackass said:


> Queen jee. Why make a petition? To make other Bangladeshis forced by government to write in Persian script? Instead why don't to simply start writing in the script disregarding others?



Probably does not know that script herself. At least she's honest about not knowing Bangla history and asking others help.


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## asad71

Freedom_Democracy said:


> You were never there stop lying and embarrassing yourself why are you so embarrassed of being a bengali




And how have you come to the conclusion I was not there or that I was lying? Have you access to my MS Br records?


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## Freedom_Democracy

asad71 said:


> And how have you come to the conclusion I was not there or that I was lying? Have you access to my MS Br records?


Because wannabes like you are not allowed in Pakistan so please talk about Pakistan with respect and tolerance


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## asad71

Freedom_Democracy said:


> Because wannabes like you are not allowed in Pakistan so please talk about Pakistan with respect and tolerance



I doubt you have ever been to Pakistan or know anything about that nation.

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## Freedom_Democracy

asad71 said:


> I doubt you have ever been to Pakistan or know anything about that nation.


I am a god damn baloch its my country ur a bengali so zip it curry boy


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## asad71

Freedom_Democracy said:


> I am a god damn baloch its my country ur a bengali so zip it curry boy




Very much doubt that.

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## Saiful Islam

Freedom_Democracy said:


> I am a god damn baloch its my country ur a bengali so zip it curry boy



Roti accompanied with your Saalan is way more oilier than the Bangladeshi palette. I've seen the ghosht salaan it's literally a swimming pool of oil dude.

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## GreenDeer

Sorry but to say this is not a sign of sanity for opening of this thread. I am new here. Diversity of creations are an example of power of all mighty Allah (S). Bangla language and its alphabets are example of that. Why would you want to against that? Power to create diversity of Allah is taken from Qur'an. Why would you go against it?


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## Freedom_Democracy

Oh so someone posted this thread on pak def comment on fb 
Its good


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## Freedom_Democracy

Now that this guy posted this stupid thread on fb everyone can see how stupid and barbaric and full of crap you are goodluck


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## Freedom_Democracy

It is also posted by some kid 
Don't be scared of posting it on fb people should see this crap
I wonder what you people do in pk def page fb comments 
Now i realize they have a page on fb just couple of days ago but the comment section is clean thank god


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## dray

Freedom_Democracy said:


> It is also posted by some kid
> Don't be scared of posting it on fb people should see this crap
> I wonder what you people do in pk def page fb comments
> Now i realize they have a page on fb just couple of days ago but the comment section is clean thank god



Which fb page?


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## Joe Shearer

Freedom_Democracy said:


> I am a god damn baloch its my country ur a bengali so zip it curry boy



You idiot, he is a veteran of the Pakistan Army. Now shut up.


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## Anubis

A Pakistani guy living in Saudi Arabia named Freedom Democracy....this is not Ironic...this is a fuckin Iron ore!

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## Saiful Islam

Can't believe this thread is still going on, Bengali doesn't use the Devanagari script, we accept that there are variations of Bengali in use today. 

End of discussion. Mods close this thread down.


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## Al-zakir

Saiful Islam said:


> Can't believe this thread is still going on, Bengali doesn't use the Devanagari script, we accept that there are variations of Bengali in use today.
> 
> End of discussion. Mods close this thread down.





Brother, It doesn't matter what you call it. Fact of the matter is that it's not ours. I mean it was not devoloped by musalman. It's a brain child of Hindu and British to replaced Farsi after the fall of Nawab Siraj ud dowlah. Do some research and you will find your answer. Every non Bangladeshi Muslim I know call it Indian or Hindu. We are preserving a script that was not meant for us. If you ask me it doesn't feel good when I look at this script. I just don't like it.

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## 24 Hours

Al-zakir said:


> Brother, It doesn't matter what you call it. Fact of the matter is that it's not ours. I mean it was not devoloped by musalman. It's a brain child of Hindu and British to replaced Farsi after the fall of Nawab Siraj ud dowlah. Do some research and you will find your answer. Every non Bangladeshi Muslim I know call it Indian or Hindu. We are preserving a script that was not meant for us. *If you ask me it doesn't feel good when I look at this script. I just don't like it.*


The script of a language should not be changed just because it hurts your feelings looking at it.

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## Al-zakir

SHK said:


> The script of a language should not be changed just because it hurts your feelings looking at it.



I'm saying it's not meant for us. It doesn't goes well with our Islamic identity. It doesn't have Islamic vibe like Urdu or Farsi.


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## Joe Shearer

SHK said:


> The script of a language should not be changed just because it hurts your feelings looking at it.



Here comes Bihari Chacha at full volume.



Al-zakir said:


> I'm saying it's not meant for us. It doesn't goes well with our Islamic identity. It doesn't have Islamic vibe like Urdu or Farsi.



Why stick around? Why not get an Islamic vibe (an Islamic vibe?) speaking Urdu and Farsi, one at a time, if you can hold in your impatience to feel the vibe? Why are you buggering around with what is plainly something you dislike and detest? What do Biharis have to do with Bangladesh?

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## 24 Hours

Al-zakir said:


> I'm saying it's not meant for us. It doesn't goes well with our Islamic identity. It doesn't have Islamic vibe like Urdu or Farsi.


So? An Islamic identity is defined by mainly by your lifestyle. Not one's native language and script. Praying 5 times a day, fasting, avoiding alcohol, etc. If you want to define it, just dedicate yourself to learning Arabic and use it to devote your time in reading and comprehending the Quran.



Joe Shearer said:


> Here comes *Bihari Chacha* at full volume.


Wait, he's a Bihari?


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## Al-zakir

Joe Shearer said:


> Here comes Bihari Chacha at full volume.
> 
> 
> 
> Why stick around? Why not get an Islamic vibe (an Islamic vibe?) speaking Urdu and Farsi, one at a time, if you can hold in your impatience to feel the vibe? Why are you buggering around with what is plainly something you dislike and detest? What do Biharis have to do with Bangladesh?



Stay out Mr. Indian. It's none of your concern. You do not see me post in your cow mata filthy section. I do not get involve with your internal matter. So why are you poking your nose in my business. 

I'm not Bihari. If I was I would have proudly say so. I'm not double faced like coward. I speak my mind and I do not hold back like other punk around here.


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## Joe Shearer

Al-zakir said:


> Stay out Mr. Indian. It's none of your concern. You do not see me post in your cow mata filthy section. I do not get involve with your internal matter. So why are you poking your nose in my business.
> 
> I'm not Bihari. If I was I would have proudly say so. I'm not double faced like coward. I speak my mind and I do not hold back like other punk around here.



You hate Bangladesh, wish it were Pakistan still, you hate Bengali, and prefer Urdu, you hate everything that is not Pakistani - what is Bengali about you?

At least I am Indian. What are you? Other than confused and bitterly confused at that?

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## Al-zakir

SHK said:


> So? An Islamic identity is defined by mainly by your lifestyle. Not one's native language and script. Praying 5 times a day, fasting, avoiding alcohol, etc. If you want to define it, just dedicate yourself to learning Arabic and use it to devote your time in reading and comprehending the Quran.
> 
> 
> Wait, he's a Bihari?



Bhai Jaan, you don't get it. No problem. 

Na ami Bihari na. Syloti to be more exact.


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## Joe Shearer

Al-zakir said:


> Bhai Jaan, you don't get it. No problem.
> 
> Na ami Bihari na. Syloti to be more exact.



Oops. My bad. Apologies.


----------



## Al-zakir

Joe Shearer said:


> You hate Bangladesh, wish it were Pakistan still, you hate Bengali, and prefer Urdu, you hate everything that is not Pakistani - what is Bengali about you?
> 
> At least I am Indian. What are you? Other than confused and bitterly confused at that?



I'm a Muslim. This is my only identity. 

Be happy with yours pal. I'm not interested with you, your country or your culture. I simply don't care.

I'm who I am. I like what I am and I will express my feeling until last breath. None should concern you or yours.


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## Joe Shearer

Al-zakir said:


> I'm a Muslim. This is my only identity.
> 
> Be happy with yours pal. I'm not interested with you, your country or your culture. I simply don't care.
> 
> I'm who I am. I like what I am and I will express my feeling until last breath. None should concern you or yours.



Good for you.

So long as you say, out of your own mouth, you are a Muslim and that is your only identity. That relieves you of any obligation to interfere in other things. Like script for Bengali. Your languages are Arabic, Urdu, Persian. Stick to them and have fun. Don't interfere with my language and my culture.

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## 24 Hours

Joe Shearer said:


> Good for you.
> 
> So long as you say, out of your own mouth, you are a Muslim and that is your only identity. That relieves you of any obligation to interfere in other things. Like script for Bengali. Your languages are Arabic, Urdu, Persian. Stick to them and have fun. Don't interfere with my language and my culture.


Is your family originally from East Bengal?


----------



## Joe Shearer

SHK said:


> Is your family originally from East Bengal?



Dhaka and Borishal.


----------



## dray

SHK said:


> The script of a language should not be changed just because it hurts your feelings looking at it.



Uh, this is the thread where I was making elaborate plans with patriotic jamatis to replace Bengali from Bangladesh with something more Islamic. 



Joe Shearer said:


> Dhaka and Borishal.



Amar babar family originally Itna theke, pore Borishale settle korechilo, Mayer family Khulna theke...ekhon ar kichui nei..!

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## dray

Al-zakir said:


> Brother, It doesn't matter what you call it. Fact of the matter is that it's not ours. I mean it was not devoloped by musalman. It's a brain child of Hindu and British to replaced Farsi after the fall of Nawab Siraj ud dowlah. Do some research and you will find your answer. Every non Bangladeshi Muslim I know call it Indian or Hindu. We are preserving a script that was not meant for us. If you ask me it doesn't feel good when I look at this script. I just don't like it.



Farsi is a Shia language, BD is Sunni. Urdu is basically a Hindu language, I suggest Arabic, that's the ultimate Islamic language right from the birthplace of prophet pbuh.

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## mb444

Rain Man said:


> Farsi is a Shia language, BD is Sunni. Urdu is basically a Hindu language, I suggest Arabic, that's the ultimate Islamic language.



Any language spoken by a muslim is a muslim language... particularly so if the majority of of those who speaks the language are muslims.


----------



## dray

Anubis said:


> A Pakistani guy living in Saudi Arabia named Freedom Democracy....this is not Ironic...this is a fuckin Iron ore!



Eid mubarak bhai. 



mb444 said:


> Any language spoken by a muslim is a muslim language... particularly so if the majority of of those who speaks the language are muslims.



That's a twisted argument..Bengali is a local language, Islam spread to Bengali speaking regions later, but it originated from the prophet's pbuh birthplace..Quran was originally written in Arabic and later translated into Bengali..Kabah is covered with Arabic scriptures, not Bengali. You may adopt a local language for convenience, but it is not Islamic. Most of the Bengali literature is unislamic, as pointed out by the Bangladeshis. There are things that are Islamic, and there are things that are not. For example, Muslims break the fast with a date, preferably imported from Arabia, not local mangoes. 



Joe Shearer said:


> Good for you.
> 
> So long as you say, out of your own mouth, you are a Muslim and that is your only identity. That relieves you of any obligation to interfere in other things. Like script for Bengali. Your languages are Arabic, Urdu, Persian. Stick to them and have fun. Don't interfere with my language and my culture.



Sometimes fighting an idea makes it stronger, I am fully supporting them...please bear with me. 

I hope they will find the right path instead of I trying to push them..

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## mb444

Rain Man said:


> Eid mubarak bhai.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a twisted argument..Bengali is a local language, Islam spread to Bengali speaking regions later, but it originated from the prophet's pbuh birthplace..Quran was originally written in Arabic and later translated into Bengali..Kabah is covered with Arabic scriptures, not Bengali. You may adopt a local language for convenience, but it is not Islamic. Most of the Bengali literature is unislamic, as pointed out by the Bangladeshis. For example, Muslims break the fast with a date, preferably imported from Arabia, not local mangoes.



Languages existed before Islam which appropriated them as it came into being. Arabic is the language of the prophet because it was the local language. it has a special place as far as muslims are concerned, however language is merely a means of communication it has no intrinsic religious flavour, we read the Koran primarily in arabic so that we maintain the essence of the original message of God in the original language it was delivered. Arabic as a language is not better or worse than any other.

Most bengali literature is unislamic.... what does that even mean? What the hell is an unislamic literature. do you mean books written by non -muslims as compared to muslims then that is patently false. Majority of the people who speaks bangla are muslims, literary output are in line demographic reality.


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## dray

mb444 said:


> Languages existed before Islam which appropriated them as it came into being. Arabic is the language of the prophet because it was the local language. it has a special place as far as muslims are concerned, however language is merely a means of communication it has no intrinsic religious flavour, we read the Koran primarily in arabic so that we maintain the essence of the original message of God in the original language it was delivered. Arabic as a language is not better or worse than any other.
> 
> Most bengali literature is unislamic.... what does that even mean? What the hell is an unislamic literature. do you mean books written by non -muslims as compared to muslims then that is patently false. Majority of the people who speaks bangla are muslims, literary output are in line demographic reality.



If you read the Koran primarily in arabic so that you maintain the essence of the original message of God in the original language it was delivered, then why not use that language for all affairs of your daily life, what is the problem with that other than little inconvenience for a short period of time? 

And about the unislamic literature, most of the Bengali literature talks about a culture that is predominently Hindu with all the Hindu religious practices and rituals..I am not saying this, that's what your own compatriots say..and they maybe right. Other aspects of Bengali culture, like song, dance, paintaing, sculptures etc. are surely unislamic.


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## mb444

Rain Man said:


> If you read the Koran primarily in arabic so that you maintain the essence of the original message of God in the original language it was delivered, then why not use that language for all affairs of your daily life, what is the problem with that other than little inconvenience for a short period of time?
> 
> And about the unislamic literature, most of the Bengali literature talks about a culture that is predominently Hindu with all the Hindu religious practices and rituals..I am not saying this, that's what your own compatriots say..and they maybe right. Other aspects of Bengali culture, like song, dance, paintaing, sculptures etc. are surely unislamic.





It is not for a hindutva turdoid to dictate to us what language one should use but for your education there is no compulsion in islam vis-a-vis arabic. Islam is a message to mankind as a whole, it is not limited by nationalism, culture , race, gender, class or any other social construct. You won't but should you wish to expand you clearly deficient knowledge base go and read the last sermon of the Prophet (PBUH), it conveys everything that is islam.

Bangladeshis are numerous thus plurality of views. some may see song dance painting etc from a particularly puritanical viewpoint and deem it as unislamic, but these people are a minority. without passing judgement on such views which i do not share all i would reiterate is bangladeshi culture and bangla is as "Islamic" as any other that can be claimed to be islamic from persian to turkish, from berber to Swahili, from ughir to bhasha indonesia to malay.

you interjection as is always the case is simply to troll.

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## Homo Sapiens

Why this stupid thread dug out from gutter time to time? Let it die , don't resuscitate it.


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## dray

mb444 said:


> It is not for a hindutva turdoid to dictate to us what language one should use but for your education there is no compulsion in islam vis-a-vis arabic. Islam is a message to mankind as a whole, it is not limited by nationalism, culture , race, gender, class or any other social construct. You won't but should you wish to expand you clearly deficient knowledge base go and read the last sermon of the Prophet (PBUH), it conveys everything that is islam.
> 
> Bangladeshis are numerous thus plurality of views. some may see song dance painting etc from a particularly puritanical viewpoint and deem it as unislamic, but these people are a minority. without passing judgement on such views which i do not share all i would reiterate is bangladeshi culture and bangla is as "Islamic" as any other that can be claimed to be islamic from persian to turkish, from berber to Swahili, from ughir to bhasha indonesia to malay.
> 
> you interjection as is always the case is simply to troll.



Hindutva turdoid sounds so western, I prefer malaun.  And I am not dictating anything, just supporting some valid points raised by the Bangladeshis..and Islam doesn't permit you to have plurality of views regarding Hindutva song, dance, painting, sculptures, Hindutva literature, dress, food habit, or your lifestyle, you are either following specific rules or you are not..Arabic may not be mandatory, but it is more appropriate..

Besides, you are missing one important benefit of switching to Arabic..Bangladeshi culture is being corrupted by Hindutva films, serials, literature, songs and culture using the common languages, adoption of Arabic language as the only language of Bangladesh would solve this problem in just one or two generations..

Think logically. 



Doyalbaba said:


> Why this stupid thread dug out from gutter time to time? Let it die , don't resuscitate it.



The idea isn't dead, how can the thread be..?


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## sidr

I am cool with having Bangla as national language as its widely known.
I am just not cool with term Bengali.It's like calling American(USA) people English just because they made it standard.
I hate to be called Bengali,and hate even more these Bengali nationalist SOBs who's trying to import cultures from Kolkata.
They are forgetting what separated us from India and what caused all the bloodshed.

For script,I prefer English BTW.


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## Joe Shearer

mb444 said:


> It is not for a hindutva turdoid to dictate to us what language one should use but for your education there is no compulsion in islam vis-a-vis arabic. Islam is a message to mankind as a whole, it is not limited by nationalism, culture , race, gender, class or any other social construct. You won't but should you wish to expand you clearly deficient knowledge base go and read the last sermon of the Prophet (PBUH), it conveys everything that is islam.
> 
> Bangladeshis are numerous thus plurality of views. some may see song dance painting etc from a particularly puritanical viewpoint and deem it as unislamic, but these people are a minority. without passing judgement on such views which i do not share all i would reiterate is bangladeshi culture and bangla is as "Islamic" as any other that can be claimed to be islamic from persian to turkish, from berber to Swahili, from ughir to bhasha indonesia to malay.
> 
> you interjection as is always the case is simply to troll.



You are extremely uncivil, and without cause. This is not a decent way to make your point, infirm and feeble as it might be.

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## dray

sidr said:


> I am cool with having Bangla as national language as its widely known.
> I am just not cool with term Bengali.It's like calling American(USA) people English just because they made it standard.
> I hate to be called Bengali,and hate even more these Bengali nationalist SOBs who's trying to import cultures from Kolkata.
> They are forgetting what separated us from India and what caused all the bloodshed.
> 
> For script,I prefer English BTW.



Please don't confuse yourself and the rest of us for humanity's sake,  you are cool with Bengali language, then you are not cool with the term Bengali, and you want English scripture for Bengali language...what is this, sonar pathorbati? And what will you do about your country's name..'Bangladesh', or your Bengali national anthem that screams "Sonar Bangla"? 

I suggest you not to float around like a lost ship and anchor somewhere, Arabia would solve the problem and sort out all the mess...and save poor Bengali for those who want to be Bengali without any confusion or regret.

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## Al-zakir

Joe Shearer said:


> Good for you.
> 
> So long as you say, out of your own mouth, you are a Muslim and that is your only identity. That relieves you of any obligation to interfere in other things. Like script for Bengali. Your languages are Arabic, Urdu, Persian. Stick to them and have fun. Don't interfere with my language and my culture.



This is my point exactly. I want nothing to do with you or your country. I like to see Muslim Bangladesh (former East Pakistan) dumped, discard, throw out all the things that relate to Hindu or India. So that we can have people like you out of our business. 



Rain Man said:


> Farsi is a Shia language, BD is Sunni. Urdu is basically a Hindu language, I suggest Arabic, that's the ultimate Islamic language right from the birthplace of prophet pbuh.



These languages are part of our greater heritage. I am not against Bangla (spoken ) rather I would like to replace the script. I am against the script and Hindu literature.

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## dray

Al-zakir said:


> This is my point exactly. I want nothing to do with you or your country. I like to see Muslim Bangladesh (former East Pakistan) dumped, discard, throw out all the things that relate to Hindu or India. So that we can have people like you out of our business.
> 
> These languages are part of our greater heritage. I am not against Bangla (spoken ) rather I would like to replace the script. I am against the script and Hindu literature.



Changing script won't make any difference to the objections you have...everything will remain just Bengali, it's easy to copy those Hindu literature from Bengali scripture to any other scripture, any class-8 pass can do that..and it will get copied, but it is very difficult to translate those Hindu literature to a different language altogether, you need experts with sound knowledge of both the languages as well as good understanding of literature, it's tough to find, and those Hindu literature will die for good in Bangladesh within a generation. Give it a deeper thought and you will understand. If you put a jacket on a papaya then it doesn't become a jackfruit...you need to discard the papaya altogether and go for the jackfruit.


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## bongbang

sidr said:


> I am cool with having Bangla as national language as its widely known.
> I am just not cool with term Bengali.It's like calling American(USA) people English just because they made it standard.
> I hate to be called Bengali,and hate even more these Bengali nationalist SOBs who's trying to import cultures from Kolkata.
> They are forgetting what separated us from India and what caused all the bloodshed.
> 
> For script,I prefer English BTW.



Ajke gosto tukaite gia tor pachai ki kono Bangali lathi marchilo, je ehane aisa bangalider upor rag jhartachos?

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## nForce

bongbang said:


> Ajke gosto tukaite gia tor pachai ki kono Bangali lathi marchilo, je ehane aisa bangalider upor rag jhartachos?


Bongbang just met the Pakistani army apologists I had been talking about. Many of them have migrated to UK/US. Some are still in BD, who couldn't make it.


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## TruthPrevails

bongbang said:


> Ajke gosto tukaite gia tor pachai ki kono Bangali lathi marchilo, je ehane aisa bangalider upor rag jhartachos?


bhai bangali bolis na Bangladeshidr bol, esob chele pule gulo toder e maal jadr nijer bangla bhasa niye gorbo nei


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## bongbang

TruthPrevails said:


> bhai bangali bolis na Bangladeshidr bol, esob chele pule gulo toder e maal jadr nijer bangla bhasa niye gorbo nei



Eta upgrade mal. Bangladeshi bolle or problem nei. Bangla niei or joto chulkani. Are baba Bangla ar Bangladeshi oi ek e kotha. Mudrar epith opith, ta niei eder joto tena pechano. Ache kisu upojati jara jibone kichu korte pareni ekhon onner orjon ke choto korte chai. Ora nijeo confused ekhon amader o confused korte chai. Jottoshob. Jegulo Pakistan er supporter oder amar kisui bolar nei.

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## TruthPrevails

bongbang said:


> Eta upgrade mal. Bangladeshi bolle or problem nei. Bangla niei or joto chulkani. Are baba Bangla ar Bangladeshi oi ek e kotha. Mudrar epith opith, ta niei eder joto tena pechano. Ache kisu upojati jara jibone kichu korte pareni ekhon onner orjon ke choto korte chai. Ora nijeo confused ekhon amader o confused korte chai. Jottoshob. Jegulo Pakistan er supporter oder amar kisui bolar nei.


haha i agree with you al baal chele egulo, jai hok bhalo laglo kotha bole apnar sathe dada, jodio ami recently here jewate east bengal der sojjo krte parchi na

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## 24 Hours

sidr said:


> I am cool with having Bangla as national language as its widely known.
> I am just not cool with term Bengali.It's like calling *American(USA) people English just because they made it standard.*
> I hate to be called Bengali,and hate even more these Bengali nationalist SOBs who's trying to import cultures from Kolkata.
> They are forgetting what separated us from India and what caused all the bloodshed.
> 
> For script,I prefer English BTW.


What is this nonsense? How is can you even use that as a good comparison? You can call American's who have English heritage English, but you can't call Americans who have Irish heritage English even if they speak English. Your heritage is Bengali, so you are Bengali, that's final.



Joe Shearer said:


> Dhaka and Borishal.


Unlike Rain Man, do you still visit? You seem to identify with our country more culturally rather than politically.



Rain Man said:


> Uh, this is the thread where I was making elaborate plans with patriotic jamatis to replace Bengali from Bangladesh with something more Islamic.
> 
> 
> 
> Amar babar family originally Itna theke, pore Borishale settle korechilo, Mayer family Khulna theke...ekhon ar kichui nei..!


Looks like your plan is a failure :p
Sorry buddy.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Urdu would be ideal language for Bangladesh , with arabic characters so its closer to Muslim culture

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## Joe Shearer

SHK said:


> What is this nonsense? How is can you even use that as a good comparison? You can call American's who have English heritage English, but you can't call Americans who have Irish heritage English even if they speak English. Your heritage is Bengali, so you are Bengali, that's final.
> 
> 
> *Unlike Rain Man, do you still visit? You seem to identify with our country more culturally rather than politically.*
> 
> 
> Looks like your plan is a failure :p
> Sorry buddy.



Of course! I have been in Dhaka several times since 2004. 

Perhaps you are right in saying that I identify more with B'desh culturally, but I am curious to know why you think I differ politically. To the extent that Bangladesh has interests which are different from India, certainly; on matters like the Teesta waters, or on the consolidation of Chhit enclaves, I don't see much difference. If you could elaborate on that point you made, I would read it with great interest.


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## 24 Hours

Joe Shearer said:


> Of course! I have been in Dhaka several times since 2004.
> 
> Perhaps you are right in saying that I identify more with B'desh culturally, but I am curious to know why you think I differ politically. To the extent that Bangladesh has interests which are different from India, certainly; on matters like the Teesta waters, or on the consolidation of Chhit enclaves, I don't see much difference. If you could elaborate on that point you made, I would read it with great interest.


Well, it's not just the interests like the ones you mentioned but, I think it mostly has to do with nationality. You are an Indian but, your origins come from Bangladesh. That's what really separates you from the average Bangladeshi, the citizenship. Maybe, politically wasn't really the best term to use in this case. Regardless, in the case of political disagreement like the examples you mentioned above, I would expect you as an Indian citizen to support India's interest. However, considering your own cultural identity with Bangladesh, you seem likely to support a compromise that can work for a mutual interest for both of our countries.

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## Saiful Islam

Al-zakir said:


> Brother, It doesn't matter what you call it. Fact of the matter is that it's not ours. I mean it was not devoloped by musalman. It's a brain child of Hindu and British to replaced Farsi after the fall of Nawab Siraj ud dowlah. Do some research and you will find your answer. Every non Bangladeshi Muslim I know call it Indian or Hindu. We are preserving a script that was not meant for us. If you ask me it doesn't feel good when I look at this script. I just don't like it.



Of course I know the attempts which were successful to thwart Muslim Bengali literature and language via the collaboration of British and Hindu elite in Fort Williams College. The Rohingyas have done a good job at developing their own script called Hanifi. 

My issue is these Baboos of W.Bengal deny Puthir Gan (Jalalabadi Nagri) and in general the variation of Bangla spoken in BD. I find it hard to comprehend them, some of my external family have to read the English subs to understand Star Jalsa.

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## Joe Shearer

Saiful Islam said:


> Of course I know the attempts which were successful to thwart Muslim Bengali literature and language via the collaboration of British and Hindu elite in Fort Williams College. The Rohingyas have done a good job at developing their own script called Hanifi.
> 
> My issue is these Baboos of W.Bengal deny Puthir Gan (Jalalabadi Nagri) and in general the variation of Bangla spoken in BD. I find it hard to comprehend them, some of my external family have to read the English subs to understand Star Jalsa.



Excuse me? 

Where did the collaboration of British and Hindu elite at Fort William College produce a script? Unless you identify the creation of a letter-press style for printing Bengali with the creation of the handwritten script on which it was based originally?

Also, I couldn't understand your second point. Are you saying that Star Jalsa cannot be understood by Bangladeshis? Is that due to pronunciation or to vocabulary?


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## Saiful Islam

The only language that has any relevance islamically is Arabic, no language has a degree of 'Islamic-ness' in it, whether it be Kurdish, Balochi or Urdu. But Musulmani Bangla has been shaped by the various Perso/Afghan settlements which is no doubt a part of history or there would be no such thing as a Jalalabadi Nagri or Puthir Gan and not to forget the countless contributions the people of Bengal have given to Parsi...Shah Abdul Karim, Hasan Raja, Abbas Hussaini, Daulat Kazi and literature such as Ubaidullah Ubaidi etc.



Joe Shearer said:


> Excuse me?
> 
> Where did the collaboration of British and Hindu elite at Fort William College produce a script? Unless you identify the creation of a letter-press style for printing Bengali with the creation of the handwritten script on which it was based originally?
> 
> Also, I couldn't understand your second point. Are you saying that Star Jalsa cannot be understood by Bangladeshis? Is that due to pronunciation or to vocabulary?



Maybe I worded it wrong as I am typing on my phone, but there is no doubt that the Hindu zamindars and British tried to suppress the Bengali Muslim and all things musulman.



Joe Shearer said:


> Excuse me?
> 
> Where did the collaboration of British and Hindu elite at Fort William College produce a script? Unless you identify the creation of a letter-press style for printing Bengali with the creation of the handwritten script on which it was based originally?
> 
> Also, I couldn't understand your second point. Are you saying that Star Jalsa cannot be understood by Bangladeshis? Is that due to pronunciation or to vocabulary?



Well I gave an anecdote to what some of my family experience, this may not be the case for all Bangladeshis. But my point is the Bengali in W.Bengal vocab is way different to what is spoken in the ilaqas of BD.

Pakistani apologists??? I can point you to many old timer mutki bahini who regret splitting from Pakistan (I am not saying splitting from Pakistan was bad) but they will tell you how they regret partaking in the war of 1971.

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## 24 Hours

Saiful Islam said:


> Pakistani apologists??? I can point you to many old timer mutki bahini who regret splitting from Pakistan (I am not saying splitting from Pakistan was bad) but they will tell you how they regret partaking in the war of 1971.


Age must be getting to them.


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## Saiful Islam

SHK said:


> Age must be getting to them.



I guess they have the ability to form their own opinions and not take for granted the independence god has given them. Anyways, wouldn't these guys qualify as ultra, ultra Razakar?


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## Joe Shearer

Saiful Islam said:


> The only language that has any relevance islamically is Arabic, no language has a degree of 'Islamic-ness' in it, whether it be Kurdish, Balochi or Urdu. But Musulmani Bangla has been shaped by the various Perso/Afghan settlements which is no doubt a part of history or there would be no such thing as a Jalalabadi Nagri or Puthir Gan and not to forget the countless contributions the people of Bengal have given to Parsi...Shah Abdul Karim, Hasan Raja, Abbas Hussaini, Daulat Kazi and literature such as Ubaidullah Ubaidi etc.



I came to learn about Musulmani Bangla on this forum and was fascinated. Since then I have sought every opportunity (not very many - my work chews up most of my time, and just now, I am on PakDef because there is an unplanned lull in teaching work for a week or two) to read up on it. Your note above goes into my reading list. Now to try and trace it. It isn't easy getting access to such writings and their exegesis in Hyderabad!



> Maybe I worded it wrong as I am typing on my phone, but there is no doubt that the Hindu zamindars and British tried to suppress the Bengali Muslim and all things musulman.



That doesn't seem right. There may have been a tilt, but it is highly unlikely that in the days of the Fort William College, there was any kind of anti-Muslim bias on the parts of the British. There might well have been from the pundits' side. It was for the British to detect and to correct this bias. As far as I know, they leaned in the other direction. The Hunter Commission Report is an example.

@Saiful Islam, please don't be apologetic. I am reading your posts very carefully, and am getting a lot out of it. Please continue, without any thought that this might be provocative. Provocative it is, intellectually provocative, nothing more. Please continue.



> Well I gave an anecdote to what some of my family experience, this may not be the case for all Bangladeshis. But my point is the Bengali in W.Bengal vocab is way different to what is spoken in the ilaqas of BD.



I completely agree that some dialects can be difficult to comprehend for those not used to them. Of course, the Bengali spoken in West Bengal is quite different from that spoken in the ilaqas of BD. 

But if you take the case of English, the position is quite similar there. 



> Pakistani apologists??? I can point you to many old timer mutki bahini who regret splitting from Pakistan (I am not saying splitting from Pakistan was bad) but they will tell you how they regret partaking in the war of 1971.



??



bongbang said:


> Ajke gosto tukaite gia tor pachai ki kono Bangali lathi marchilo, je ehane aisa bangalider upor rag jhartachos?



ROTFL


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## dray

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Urdu would be ideal language for Bangladesh , with arabic characters so its closer to Muslim culture



It was a Hindu Baniya conspiracy under the "Mission Akhand Bharat" to make Pakistanis believe that Urdu is a Muslim language, it's nothing but a variation of Hindi with some lone Parsi, Arabic words and Arabic characters..the plan was hatched with a long term view to keep the languages similar, so that we can infiltrate Pakistan culturally and Hinduized it from within..the plan is working!

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## Joe Shearer

Rain Man said:


> It was a Hindu Baniya conspiracy under the "Mission Akhand Bharat" to make Pakistanis believe that Urdu is a Muslim language, it's nothing but a variation of Hindi with some lone Parsi, Arabic words and Arabic characters..the plan was hatched with a long term view to keep the languages similar, so that we can infiltrate Pakistan culturally and Hinduized it from within..the plan is working!



Damn!

He blurted it out in public!

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I am not sure why Indian folks need to interfere in Bangladesh's internal matter


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## Joe Shearer

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I am not sure why Indian folks need to interfere in Bangladesh's internal matter



We're commenting.

Just like you.

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## dray

Saiful Islam said:


> Of course I know the attempts which were successful to thwart Muslim Bengali literature and language via the collaboration of British and Hindu elite in Fort Williams College. The Rohingyas have done a good job at developing their own script called Hanifi.
> 
> My issue is these Baboos of W.Bengal deny Puthir Gan (Jalalabadi Nagri) and in general the variation of Bangla spoken in BD. I find it hard to comprehend them, some of my external family have to read the English subs to understand Star Jalsa.



Bhai, there was no deliberate evil conspiracy by the Bengalis of Kolkata to deprive East Bengalis of their language, we just wanted to create a formal Bengali for literature and formal use, but you are/were free to have your own version of Bengali or any other language.

Besides, you are a Sylheti afaik, sylheti is a bit different from all versions of Bengali.



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I am not sure why Indian folks need to interfere in Bangladesh's internal matter



You know how evil we Indians are..and Bangladesh is also a part of our "Mission Akhand Bharat"..!


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## sidr

Rain Man said:


> Please don't confuse yourself and the rest of us for humanity's sake,  you are cool with Bengali language, then you are not cool with the term Bengali, and you want English scripture for Bengali language...what is this, sonar pathorbati? And what will you do about your country's name..'Bangladesh', or your Bengali national anthem that screams "Sonar Bangla"?
> 
> I suggest you not to float around like a lost ship and anchor somewhere, Arabia would solve the problem and sort out all the mess...and save poor Bengali for those who want to be Bengali without any confusion or regret.


Of course I'm not dragging Indian dadas into this,relax you're Bengali I'm not denying it.I'm talking about Bangladeshi people.
And about English,I was stating my preference,no need to panic.
Yeah I have problem with imported stuff.(name and anthem)



bongbang said:


> Ajke gosto tukaite gia tor pachai ki kono Bangali lathi marchilo, je ehane aisa bangalider upor rag jhartachos?


Whatever,butthurt troll.

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## sidr

SHK said:


> What is this nonsense? How is can you even use that as a good comparison? You can call American's who have English heritage English, but you can't call Americans who have Irish heritage English even if they speak English. Your heritage is Bengali, so you are Bengali, that's final.


How's this comparison nonsense? America is multicultural,so Bangladesh is. You can't generalise them by one ethnicity.
That's my point,people who feel our culture should be replaced with Kolkata's one should pole vault to West Bengal.
Bangladeshi and Bengali aren't interchangeable as some confused folks thinks.
Most of our(Muslim population) ancestor came from foreign countries.Mine was from Iraq.


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## dray

sidr said:


> Of course I'm not dragging Indian dadas into this,relax you're Bengali I'm not denying it.I'm talking about Bangladeshi people.
> And about English,I was stating my preference,no need to panic.
> Yeah I have problem with imported stuff.(name and anthem).



You my friend seems to be a true Bangladeshi/East Pakistani/Iraqi (whatever is suitable) unlike the anti-nationalistic pro-Indian Kolkata-loving chapatti-leager pseudo-Bangladeshi/East Pakistani Hinduized Bengalis of BD here.  Actually there is already a thread here suggesting change of malaun names of BD cities, here: 
Should we make a petition to change 'Malaun' names of all cities of Bangladesh?

But what name do you suggest for present day Bangladesh and its capital city? What should be its national anthem? And what about that flag..Islamic flags generally have Moon and star, BD flag has a goddamn Sun!!  That too at the risk of a clear copyright violation of the Japanese flag! 

Please ignore the trolls and let us discuss the suitable options.


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## sidr

Rain Man said:


> You my friend seems to be a true Bangladeshi/East Pakistani/Iraqi (whatever is suitable) unlike the anti-nationalistic pro-Indian Kolkata-loving chapatti-leager pseudo-Bangladeshi/East Pakistani Hinduized Bengalis of BD here.  Actually there is already a thread here suggesting change of malaun names of BD cities, here:
> Should we make a petition to change 'Malaun' names of all cities of Bangladesh?
> 
> But what name do you suggest for present day Bangladesh and its capital city? What should be its national anthem? And what about that flag..Islamic flags generally have Moon and star, BD flag has a goddamn Sun!!  That too at the risk of a clear copyright violation of the Japanese flag!
> 
> Please ignore the trolls and let us discuss the suitable options.


Since you're requesting,troll ignored.


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## dray

Joe Shearer said:


> I completely agree that some dialects can be difficult to comprehend for those not used to them. Of course, the Bengali spoken in West Bengal is quite different from that spoken in the ilaqas of BD.



Actually the Bengali spoken in many rural areas is quite different from the Kolkata dialect, Birbhum for example..


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## Gazi

Why dont Bangali started using Roman Script for Bangla it would make their Language Internationalize and easy to understand for all Foreigners. I prefer the same thing in Pakistan as well especially after Urdu is getting status of Official Language.


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## 24 Hours

sidr said:


> How's this comparison nonsense? America is multicultural,so Bangladesh is. You can't generalise them by one ethnicity.
> That's my point,people who feel our culture should be replaced with Kolkata's one should pole vault to West Bengal.
> Bangladeshi and Bengali aren't interchangeable as some confused folks thinks.
> Most of our(Muslim population) ancestor came from foreign countries.Mine was from Iraq.


Bangladesh is no where near as multicultural as America, are you mad? This one of the most ethnically homogeneous countries in the world, counting all the ethnic minorities in Bangladesh combined they only account for 2% of the population. And so what if you ancestor's came from foreign countries, does that make you, an Arab? Especially if they settled here several centuries ago and completely integrated with the locals here. In fact, what percent of your DNA is actually from Iraq?



Gazi said:


> Why dont Bangali started using Roman Script for Bangla it would make their Language Internationalize and easy to understand for all Foreigners. I prefer the same thing in Pakistan as well especially after Urdu is getting status of Official Language.


The phonetics become an issue.


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## sidr

SHK said:


> Bangladesh is no where near as multicultural as America, are you mad? This one of the most ethnically homogeneous countries in the world, counting all the ethnic minorities in Bangladesh combined they only account for 2% of the population. And so what if you ancestor's came from foreign countries, does that make you, an Arab? Especially if they settled here several centuries ago and completely integrated with the locals here. In fact, what percent of your DNA is actually from Iraq?


If that doesn't make me an Arab,it shouldn't make me a Bengali either.Its a mix,and I am happy if you call me none of them.
BTW, what makes a person Bengali in your eyes? Is it the language,ethnicity or geographic location that makes a person Bengali?


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## Saiful Islam

SHK said:


> Bangladesh is no where near as multicultural as America, are you mad? This one of the most ethnically homogeneous countries in the world, counting all the ethnic minorities in Bangladesh combined they only account for 2% of the population. And so what if you ancestor's came from foreign countries, does that make you, an Arab? Especially if they settled here several centuries ago and completely integrated with the locals here. In fact, what percent of your DNA is actually from Iraq?
> 
> 
> The phonetics become an issue.





SHK said:


> Bangladesh is no where near as multicultural as America, are you mad? This one of the most ethnically homogeneous countries in the world, counting all the ethnic minorities in Bangladesh combined they only account for 2% of the population. And so what if you ancestor's came from foreign countries, does that make you, an Arab? Especially if they settled here several centuries ago and completely integrated with the locals here. In fact, what percent of your DNA is actually from Iraq?
> 
> 
> The phonetics become an issue.



I don't think Sidr is trying to compare the level of multi culturalism but the fact that both countries are multicultural. Since the beginning of Bengal Sultanate we saw the Bengali Muslim identity develop and then d mature during Mughal rule.

The man is right, no country should be imposed an alien culture.

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## 24 Hours

sidr said:


> If that doesn't make me an Arab,it shouldn't make me a Bengali either.Its a mix,and I am happy if you call me none of them.
> BTW, what makes a person Bengali in your eyes? Is it the language,ethnicity or geographic location that makes a person Bengali?


Bhai, what relation do you have with Arabs? Do you have any common customs with them? Other than the fact that they're Muslims? You may have them as ancestors but, you are still a Bengali. I have Parsi ancestry from my mother's side yet I have nothing in common with them. A Bengali is a Bengali purely based on his ethnicity and language. That goes for all ethnic groups.



Saiful Islam said:


> I don't think Sidr is trying to compare the level of multi culturalism but the fact that both countries are multicultural. Since the beginning of Bengal Sultanate we saw the Bengali Muslim identity develop and then d mature during Mughal rule.
> 
> The man is right, no country should be imposed an alien culture.


What is this alien culture you speak of? Do you mean this "Hinduized" script?


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## Saiful Islam

SHK said:


> Bhai, what relation do you have with Arabs? Do you have any common customs with them? Other than the fact that they're Muslims? You may have them as ancestors but, you are still a Bengali. I have Parsi ancestry from my mother's side yet I have nothing in common with them. A Bengali is a Bengali purely based on his ethnicity and language. That makes you a Bengali.
> 
> 
> What is this alien culture you speak of? Do you mean this "Hinduized" script?



Tell me which material of Bankim or Sarat Chandra or even Rabridanath you relate to?

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## Joe Shearer

Saiful Islam said:


> Tell me which material of Bankim or Sarat Chandra or even Rabridanath you relate to?



That is a fascinating question you have asked. The mental leap involved in finding a Bengali mind devoid of any attachment to any one of these amazingly diverse authors is truly liberating. Have you read any of these authors' works? Which ones?

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## 24 Hours

Saiful Islam said:


> Tell me which material of Bankim or Sarat Chandra or even Rabridanath you relate to?


What do you mean by "relate" in this context?


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## Al-zakir

Saiful Islam said:


> Tell me which material of Bankim or Sarat Chandra or even Rabridanath you relate to?



Great question. I'll like to hear what they have to say now. 



SHK said:


> Bhai, *what relation do you have with Arabs*? Do you have any common customs with them? Other than the fact that they're Muslims?



Excuse me. Are you Muslim and do you follow Sunnah?


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## 24 Hours

Al-zakir said:


> Excuse me. Are you Muslim and do you follow Sunnah?


You seem to have missed the last sentence in that quote.


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## sidr

SHK said:


> Bhai, what relation do you have with Arabs? Do you have any common customs with them? Other than the fact that they're Muslims? You may have them as ancestors but, you are still a Bengali. I have Parsi ancestry from my mother's side yet I have nothing in common with them. A Bengali is a Bengali purely based on his ethnicity and language. That goes for all ethnic groups.
> 
> 
> What is this alien culture you speak of? Do you mean this "Hinduized" script?


We hardly have anything in common with Bengali.show me what we have in common.
Heck our language ain't even Bengali.


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## 24 Hours

sidr said:


> We hardly have anything in common with Bengali.show me what we have in common.
> Heck *our language ain't even Bengali.*


I'm out

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## Joe Shearer

SHK said:


> I'm out



Wait for me.

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## sidr

SHK said:


> I'm out


Yeah that's what closed-minded people do when they run out of argument. 
BTW,by ours I meant people of my area(Sylheti speakers),Didn't mean whole population of Bangladesh,because your question was directly towards me.My bad,should've been more clear.
If you want to debate more about whether its a dialect or language,you can post in this thread Chatgaiya language


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## sidr

Joe Shearer said:


> Wait for me.


I'm only responsible for what I say,not for what you understand. 
So don't kill yourself.


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## chaanmia

Someone failed in Bangla


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## Stag112

When we don't know who to hate, we hate ourselves.” 
― Chuck Palahniuk, _Invisible Monsters _

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## bongbang

chaanmia said:


> Someone failed in Bangla



He is Iraqi, she shouldn't learn Bangla


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## chaanmia

bongbang said:


> He is Iraqi, she shouldn't learn Bangla


awesome place  
is he alive?


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## bongbang

chaanmia said:


> awesome place
> is he alive?



The snow queen most probably was raped by IS and in exile now
But Iraqi sidr taken shelter in Sylhet

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## sidr

Yh I'm alive,just watching two gays kissing each other,I think you gays should get married.


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## chaanmia

sidr said:


> Yh I'm alive,just watching two gays kissing each other,I think you gays should get married.


I know qurbani is a bit frustrating time for people like you but you can talk it out man i am very frank and have no issues with zoophilic people

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## sidr

chaanmia said:


> I know qurbani is a bit frustrating time for people like you but you can talk it out man i am very frank and have no issues with zoophilic people


Thanks for correcting me,you're a zoophile then.
So which one do you prefer? Dog or horse?
Naah,not interested to know.


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## chaanmia

sidr said:


> Thanks for correcting me,you're a zoophile then.
> So which one do you prefer? Dog or horse?
> Naah,not interested to know.





sidr said:


> Thanks for correcting me,you're a zoophile then.
> So which one do you prefer? Dog or horse?
> Naah,not interested to know.


i wrote zoophilic people  blinded by sorrow, eh?


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## genmirajborgza786

Joe Shearer said:


> Dhaka and Borishal.





Rain Man said:


> Amar babar family originally Itna theke, pore Borishale settle korechilo, Mayer family Khulna theke...ekhon ar kichui nei..!



plus @mikebrando , & many others

_opar e to opar , bujlam , epar e o opar !  







_

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## bongbang

genmirajborgza786 said:


> plus @mikebrando , & many others
> 
> _opar e to opar , bujlam , are baba epar e o opar !
> 
> View attachment 261741
> 
> _



Where from you Bhai?

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## dray

genmirajborgza786 said:


> plus @mikebrando , & many others
> 
> _opar e to opar , bujlam , epar e o opar !
> 
> View attachment 261741
> 
> _



Eparer ordhek Bangali to opar thekei...

Ar oparer ordhek Bangali nischit noy tara Bangali kina, holeo kotota Bangali...! 



Stag112 said:


> When we don't know who to hate, we hate ourselves.”
> ― Chuck Palahniuk, _Invisible Monsters _



Eggzzacttly...!!

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## dray

genmirajborgza786 said:


> ami achi eparer epar u.p/bihar ! kintu amar bengali side is gothi narkul danga



You understand Bengali fully? I think you said once that you have been to Kolkata.

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