# 18 Indian Terrorists sabotaging CPEC arrested in Pakistan



## Laozi

18 Indian terrorists sabotaging CPEC arrested in Pakistan

@00.10

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## Cyberian

Security forces used bananas as trap to capture the Indian monkeys.

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## Lurch Adams

The documents recovered are undoubtedly made in the same factory as fake wikileaks cables and, of course, this....







Pakistan should update that dossier and send it to UN.

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## Signalian

Yadav is definitely cooperating.

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## xyxmt

Lurch Adams said:


> The documents recovered are undoubtedly made in the same factory as fake wikileaks cables and, of course, this....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan should update that dossier and send it to UN.



Pakistan has sent it to all and hence the reason no one cried even fake tears for Uri attack...ch ch ch

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## Signalian

Lurch Adams said:


> The documents recovered are undoubtedly made in the same factory as fake wikileaks cables and, of course, this....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan should update that dossier and send it to UN.



Typical Indian mentality.

Pakistan is not on a propaganda mission.

The caught terrorists will be interrogated so the whole RAW ring is caught and eliminated.

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## django

Sarge said:


> Typical Indian mentality.
> 
> Pakistan is not on a propaganda mission.
> 
> The caught terrorists will be interrogated so the whole RAW ring is caught and eliminated.


In regards to the captured terrorists/agents, let us hope they rub salt into their RAW wounds.Kudos Sarge

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## Clutch

Stick to the topic folks.

Indian covert action and even Indian terrorism means that they are aware of the potential of CPEC.

18 Indian terrorists is a huge deal... number wise that's as big group as the 9/11 al Qaeeda group that attacked America.

Pak army was right to give CPEC the top priority in protecting it.

Even Indian members here on are active in cyber attacks (via misinformation). The indian members here are not part of RAW or any organized group... they are just in rage about CPEC and the opportunity it presents to Pakistan.. Their wet dreams of a "failed pakistan" are becoming even more laughable... that's actually worse
.. It's worse that the anti CPEC Indians on this forum aren't part of RAW or some organized group... because it just shows the deep rooted hatred and venom they as a race hold for us ... it's in their blood. You expect peace from these people? Not in a million years.

CPEC is a reality now learn to live with it.... Or our armed forces will continue to turn you into cocroaches...

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## Sheikh Rauf

Lotus_stalk said:


> Your quaide Jinnah's daughter rejected Pakistan PM post to marry an so called Indian monkey.... Why are you so much racist against us Indians ??


Your very own ruling party BJP aka RSS killed ur own gandhi.. is this about indian subataging CPEC.. we all know how mody have grudge against Pak and allocate to subatage CPEC.
We are capturing indian monkies and we will not stop it. Either u like it or not CPEC is going to happen.

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## EnggineerShahjehan

Soon india will have shortage of monkeys !

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## Signalian

EnggineerShahjehan said:


> Soon india will have shortage of monkeys !


Unfortunately,in some cases RAW recruits Pakistanis also. The picture comes out as disgruntled Pakistanis working against state of Pakistan.

Although every design is planned by RAW itself.



django said:


> In regards to the captured terrorists/agents, let us hope they rub salt into their RAW wounds.Kudos Sarge


Its a long way to go to clean Pakistan from RAW.

Things are out in the open also, back in 1980's *Indian PM told about RAW network in Pakistan to Gen Zia Ul Haq*.

In a telephonic conversation, Desai (Indian PM) revealed details of the RAW network in Pakistan to Zia-ul-Haq, the neighbouring country's then martial law administrator, and told him that the Indian government also knew about its secret nuclear bomb-making facility at Kahuta. 

http://www.dailyo.in/politics/morar...-raw-kahuta-nuclear-warfare/story/1/3802.html

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Sheikh Rauf said:


> Your very own ruling party BJP aka RSS killed ur own gandhi.. is this about indian subataging CPEC.. we all know how mody have grudge against Pak and allocate to subatage CPEC.
> We are capturing indian monkies and we will not stop it. Either u like it or not CPEC is going to happen.



it's off topic but i still find it amazing how india is a country where radical extremists are the ones actually in charge - hiding behind the garb of "nationalism" (if they ever knew what such a thing really is) killed the founding father of their nation and a large enough number of people still worship them like idols

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## Qutb-ud-din Aybak

8 monkeys in embassy may have helped through their actions.


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## Liquidmetal

Khan_21 said:


> Usually its Indian girls going gaga over our men . Be it Fawad Khan , Atif aslam , Ali Zafar , Wasim akram , Imran Khan (In his heydays) and not vice versa . Its no surprise because Pakistan is miles ahead in raw looks .
> 
> As for being racist maybe because Pakistani's are much fairer than you .


Oh for crying out loud, I'd hate to go against a brother Pakistani, but please refrain from going all racist please.

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## PakGuns

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it's off topic but i still find it amazing how india is a country where radical extremists are the ones actually in charge - hiding behind the garb of "nationalism" (if they ever knew what such a thing really is) killed the founding father of their nation and a large enough number of people still worship them like idols


And their so called "secularism" and "democracy"... This nation appointed a hindu extremist with agenda to destroy pakistan, centre of his campaign was anti pakistan, we should not expect anything good coming out of this toiletless nation... Their new generation aka keyboard warriors are even worst...

And now I think it is enough for us to give peace a chance and let ISI show the face it showed to Soviet union who wanted to occupy Pakistan after Afghanistan....


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## Lurch Adams

xyxmt said:


> Pakistan has sent it to all and hence the reason no one cried even fake tears for Uri attack...ch ch ch



But what did these foreign governments/organization say in public? Did any of them acknowledge the veracity of the "dossier"?

As for international condemnation of Uri attack, every world leader did condemn it:

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/154333-PM-refused-to-condemn-Uri-attack-despite-US-UK-prodding

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...international-community-condemns-act-3038494/

http://www.firstpost.com/world/germ...ck-express-solidarity-with-india-3012588.html

You seem to have internet at your place. Maybe you should start reading news.



Sarge said:


> Pakistan is not on a propaganda mission.



Then why the entire drama with the press conference and the "dossier" which now seems to have disappeared?



Sarge said:


> The caught terrorists will be interrogated



You mean like Kulbhushan Yadav was "interrogated"? And a clearly doctored "confession" then released? If it did not involve the lives of persons falsely implicated in this clear con-job, it would actually be funny.

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## tarrar

Interrogate them heavily & kill them. We all know India is planning against CPEC in Afghanistan & all efforts should be made to counter them. Pakistan should use armed drones heavily in the Balochistan province & any bastard trying to cross the border should be taken out.


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## Jackdaws

Have they named these 18 guys?


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## Lurch Adams

Jackdaws said:


> Have they named these 18 guys?



No they are waiting to assign them names. They had to scratch their heads for days before they could come up with "Kulbhushan Yadav". So how can you expect them to concoct 18 names in no time? Please be patient.



tarrar said:


> Interrogate them heavily & kill them.



Precisely. Doesn't matter that "heavily interrogating" these non-spies will achieve nothing. Kill them nonetheless. Speaks of the existing mindset in Pakistan.

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## Signalian

Lurch Adams said:


> Then why the entire drama with the press conference and the "dossier" which now seems to have disappeared?


Meaning-less posts signify lack of knowledge and perception. you seem to have issues with Pakistan but clueless what you want to know, let me help in any way i can.

1 out of 100's of RAW agents caught in pakistan is revealed and confessions taped. 


> You mean like Kulbhushan Yadav was "interrogated"? And a clearly doctored "confession" then released? If it did not involve the lives of persons falsely implicated in this clear con-job, it would actually be funny.



He is already cooperating, 18 Indian agents caught , rest will be targeted soon. Thats reality. 

Now you can go back to your funny Indian fantasies, hope that helps you sleep at night.



Jackdaws said:


> Have they named these 18 guys?


never. and they shouldnt even. Thats not how Intelligence agencies work.

The world doesnt revolve around Bollywood movie scripts

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Lurch Adams said:


> No they are waiting to assign them names. They had to scratch their heads for days before they could come up with "Kulbhushan Yadav". So how can you expect them to concoct 18 names in no time? Please be patient.
> 
> 
> 
> Precisely. Doesn't matter that "heavily interrogating" these non-spies will achieve nothing. Kill them nonetheless. Speaks of the existing mindset in Pakistan.



Maybe than you shouldnt have owned that turd? aka Mubarak Patel as his fake indian passport and iranian visa says? I guess indians themselves are confused about kulbhushan yadav? afterall we have your monkey.

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## Politico

Jackdaws said:


> Have they named these 18 guys?



yes..mohamed singh ...imran rao....saif naidoo ...more names 2 be released soon

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Politico said:


> yes..mohamed singh ...imran rao....saif naidoo ...more names 2 be released soon


shakur kuttipillai..

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## Taimur Khurram

EnggineerShahjehan said:


> Soon india will have shortage of monkeys !



They can't, they have almost 1.5 billion to spare 

Just joking.


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## Lurch Adams

Sarge said:


> Meaning-less posts signify lack of knowledge and perception.



Blindly believing a government which has a decades-long history in false propaganda and misdirection signifies lack of knowledge and perception.



Sarge said:


> 18 Indian agents caught , rest will be targeted soon.



You mean 18 innocent people have been framed? And more to follow...



Sarge said:


> never. and they shouldnt even. Thats not how Intelligence agencies work.



So then who is Kulbhushan Yadav...since we happen to know his name?



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Maybe than you shouldnt have owned that turd? aka Mubarak Patel as his fake indian passport and iranian visa says? I guess indians themselves are confused about kulbhushan yadav? afterall we have your monkey.



ISI has a long history of forgery and deceit:

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...hlights-of-espionage-case-116102700383_1.html

No one except gullible Pakistanis believes your government. This is what happens when you build nothing but a legacy of fraud and deceit.


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## xyxmt

Lurch Adams said:


> But what did these foreign governments/organization say in public? Did any of them acknowledge the veracity of the "dossier"?
> 
> As for international condemnation of Uri attack, every world leader did condemn it:
> 
> .



yes they condemn it but they did not tow your line that means they believed Pakistan is not involved or India is involved in Pakistan...either way they leave it on two countries to sort it out


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## Verve

Jackdaws said:


> Have they named these 18 guys?



Why would they name them for any's convenience - they will need to be interrogated and once they are of no further use then they may be named.


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## imadul

Clutch said:


> Stick to the topic folks.
> 
> Indian covert action and even Indian terrorism means that they are aware of the potential of CPEC.
> 
> 18 Indian terrorists is a huge deal... number wise that's as big group as the 9/11 al Qaeeda group that attacked America.
> 
> Pak army was right to give CPEC the top priority in protecting it.
> 
> Even Indian members here on are active in cyber attacks (via misinformation). The indian members here are not part of RAW or any organized group... they are just in rage about CPEC and the opportunity it presents to Pakistan.. Their wet dreams of a "failed pakistan" are becoming even more laughable... that's actually worse
> .. It's worse that the anti CPEC Indians on this forum aren't part of RAW or some organized group... because it just shows the deep rooted hatred and venom they as a race hold for us ... it's in their blood. You expect peace from these people? Not in a million years.
> 
> CPEC is a reality now learn to live with it.... Or our armed forces will continue to turn you into cocroaches...


I concur, Clutch.
Dhoti parshad has 2 decades of progress after 1000 years of being ruled, now they are just out of their garments.


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## Keith420

Khan_21 said: 

actually u r country has low temp and more hilly areas thats why u r country have fair look. btw fair skin people belong to Kashmir or u r north side not in sindh/punjab/baluchistan becoz except kashmiris we all are ethnically same.


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## cloud4000

Sarge said:


> Yadav is definitely cooperating.



No proof this has anything to do with Yadav. It's been months since Yadav has been caught. Any agents under his control not already arrested are probably shut down. These arrests might be all together different.


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## django

Keith420 said:


> Khan_21 said:
> 
> actually u r country has low temp and more hilly areas thats why u r country have fair look. btw fair skin people belong to Kashmir or u r north side not in sindh/punjab/baluchistan becoz except kashmiris we all are ethnically same.


Forget about Pakistan dude, tell a Punjabi Jatt Sikh that he is ethnically same as a Tamil. chances are you will be paying a visit to the dentist, now do yourself a favour and log off before you embarrass yourself any further.



Sarge said:


> Unfortunately,in some cases RAW recruits Pakistanis also. The picture comes out as disgruntled Pakistanis working against state of Pakistan.
> 
> Although every design is planned by RAW itself.
> 
> 
> Its a long way to go to clean Pakistan from RAW.
> 
> Things are out in the open also, back in 1980's *Indian PM told about RAW network in Pakistan to Gen Zia Ul Haq*.
> 
> In a telephonic conversation, Desai (Indian PM) revealed details of the RAW network in Pakistan to Zia-ul-Haq, the neighbouring country's then martial law administrator, and told him that the Indian government also knew about its secret nuclear bomb-making facility at Kahuta.
> 
> http://www.dailyo.in/politics/morar...-raw-kahuta-nuclear-warfare/story/1/3802.html


That is an interesting read about Desai and his supposed revelations, I for one am somewhat skeptical, sure I believe RAW has had intelligence networks conducting clandestine operations inside Pakistan for decades yet, I get this feeling the Indians are trying to disguise their own shortcomings by declaring magnanimity, just like they claim they could have captured Lahore and Sialkot when we all know the reality of the situation and the actions of the cowardly Major Gen Prasad.Kudos Sarge

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## Bilal Khan 777

the use of foul language against indians is disgusting. Grow up.

CPEC is not a project, it is a grand design in Pakistan China nexus. It cannot be sabotaged, blowed up, other than pen pricks that will only defame india and tire its resources over other strategic goals. Indian resources maybe better spent making government subsidized housing for people sleeping on the streets in Delhi, Bombay and Calcutta.

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## Lurch Adams

xyxmt said:


> yes they condemn it but they did not tow your line that means they believed Pakistan is not involved or India is involved in Pakistan...either way they leave it on two countries to sort it out



Why do you think no one supported Nawaz Sharif's bleatings about Kashmir at UNGA? What bigger fallout than that do you expect?

As for "sorting out" all issues bilaterally, I thing the Indian government is pretty OK with that. Pakistan has an agenda of internationalizing Kashmir, Indus Water Treaty, etc. - we don't.


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## The Eagle

CPEC is working like a honeycomb. The more it progresses, more of these attracted and captured. On one side where the CPEC is going to be fruitful for Pakistan China and the region as well so other side it is going to cost India more and more to spent on such assets which goes to vain pretty soon every time. Rather than trying to sabotage a progressive projects, India should have spent the same budget for projects like CPEC through India so that the Region could prosper more. However, the capture of Kulbhushan that use to travel from Iran to Pakistan not just sabotaged the ring of such nexus but also, risked the Indian interests in Chahbahar as well. As becoming aware of Indian interests in Chahbahar, only to the extent to counter Gawadar, is failed hence all these anti-CPEC activities. 

CPEC is not just a port but a strategic value asset that India will try hard to sabotage but the reality is, it cannot be undone like this as being of a highly national interest for Pakistan and China as well. CPEC is a reality and there is still time to be accepted at it is or we have no issue to bring down more of them assets.

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## Chhatrapati

Laozi said:


> 18 Indian terrorists sabotaging CPEC arrested in Pakistan
> 
> @00.10



Seriously!?!? 18 dudes went to sabotage a billion dollar project?  Come up with something believable next time. Quoting news channels from both the countries are crap. Unreliable, just for rating.

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## Lurch Adams

The Eagle said:


> CPEC is working like a honeycomb. The more it progresses, more of these attracted and captured. On one side where the CPEC is going to be fruitful for Pakistan China and the region as well so other side it is going to cost India more and more to spent on such assets which goes to vain pretty soon every time. Rather than trying to sabotage a progressive projects, India should have spent the same budget for projects like CPEC through India so that the Region could prosper more. However, the capture of Kulbhushan that use to travel from Iran to Pakistan not just sabotaged the ring of such nexus but also, risked the Indian interests in Chahbahar as well. As becoming aware of Indian interests in Chahbahar, only to the extent to counter Gawadar, is failed hence all these anti-CPEC activities.
> 
> CPEC is not just a port but a strategic value asset that India will try hard to sabotage but the reality is, it cannot be undone like this as being of a highly national interest for Pakistan and China as well. CPEC is a reality and there is still time to be accepted at it is or we have no issue to bring down more of them assets.



Excellent thoughts. Unfortunately, no one gave the memo to the ISI/Pak Army, which has been busy perfecting asymmetrical warfare and "thousand cuts" for decades. Your incisive analysis would be better used if it could be conveyed to them.


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## The Eagle

Lurch Adams said:


> Unfortunately, no one gave the memo to the ISI/Pak Army, which has been busy perfecting asymmetrical warfare and "thousand cuts" for decades.



That is may be you take it like this because it is about ISI. You should check such claims from your side as well or at-least can ask your C.O if has information, would really tell you how things works. The perfecting thing comes as many of details are censored/reserved for another time like what you know about Kulbhushan are only what PA shared and the rest of details can be seen in light of achievements to capture such rings that he helped a lot. He is co-operating.


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## xyxmt

Lurch Adams said:


> Why do you think no one supported Nawaz Sharif's bleatings about Kashmir at UNGA? What bigger fallout than that do you expect?
> 
> As for "sorting out" all issues bilaterally, I thing the Indian government is pretty OK with that. Pakistan has an agenda of internationalizing Kashmir, Indus Water Treaty, etc. - we don't.



this is where you are wrong, Pakistan has an agenda of dealing Kashmir her own way and world should not interfere and this time it seems they have been successful. What i meant by dealing with each other is that the world is ok now for us to kill each other without involving them.


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## Lurch Adams

The Eagle said:


> That is may be you take it like this because it is about ISI. You should check such claims from your side as well or at-least can ask your C.O if has information, would really tell you how things works. The perfecting thing comes as many of details are censored/reserved for another time like what you know about Kulbhushan are only what PA shared and the rest of details can be seen in light of achievements to capture such rings that he helped a lot. He is co-operating.



Look, I am sure you are aware of the term "false equivalence". They must be doing it as well - that is the most favourite way to expunge guilt. 

ISI's role in fomenting trouble is well-documented.

http://www.cfr.org/pakistan/isi-terrorism-behind-accusations/p11644

As far as India's/RAW's role is concerned, if there are any concrete _non-partisan_ references, then I am all ears.



xyxmt said:


> this is where you are wrong, Pakistan has an agenda of dealing Kashmir her own way and world should not interfere and this time it seems they have been successful. What i meant by dealing with each other is that the world is ok now for us to kill each other without involving them.



So be it then. If you think that by blackmailing India or the rest of the world about dire repercussions, Pakistan will be allowed to have its way, you are mistaken. We are fine if the the world doesn't care. 

As for Pakistan's agenda of creating trouble in Kashmir, that is the single biggest reason why despite losing so many thousand civilians to terrorist attacks, all it gets from the world are calls to "do more on the issue of terrorism". I know it must be infuriating, but you may consider this blatant hypocrisy of creating trouble for neighbours and expecting no blowback.


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## Sneaker

"Indian terrorists" seem to be omni-present.. if a polio team goes for vaccination, they are RAW agents..if someone blows them up, they are RAW agents too... this has long crossed the line of ridiculousness...


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## Lurch Adams

Commander Keen said:


> I had to create this account just to post this.....
> 
> JESUS CHRIST are Pakistani's so racist ??? every word or reply...has some kind of a racist connotation
> 
> Every thread i read...same thing.... :/



They just have a different sense of propriety than we do.


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## Signalian

Lurch Adams said:


> Blindly believing a government which has a decades-long history in false propaganda and misdirection signifies lack of knowledge and perception.


You are merely repeating what i said with a slight change in names. That itself makes your post useless. 



> You mean 18 innocent people have been framed? And more to follow...


Arguing for the sake of argument, you have too much time on your hands, i dont. 



> So then who is Kulbhushan Yadav...since we happen to know his name?


if you still dont know that then i am sure you are hell bent on wasting my time. 



> ISI has a long history of forgery and deceit:
> 
> http://www.business-standard.com/ar...hlights-of-espionage-case-116102700383_1.html
> 
> No one except gullible Pakistanis believes your government. This is what happens when you build nothing but a legacy of fraud and deceit.



probably its better to come prepared before senselessly scribbling words here and there , its just frustration showing in your words instead of logical, knowledgeable or any meaningful point. 

You are at loss of words for RAW so now argument suddenly turns to ISI, thats a trolling tactic. Unfortunately your words lacks any substance for my replies to continue. Kindly dont quote me again, its pure time wastage even replying you.



cloud4000 said:


> No proof this has anything to do with Yadav. It's been months since Yadav has been caught. Any agents under his control not already arrested are probably shut down. These arrests might be all together different.


do you even know what the word "network" means and how its applied in intelligence based ops. Ofcourse you dont 



django said:


> That is an interesting read about Desai and his supposed revelations, I for one am somewhat skeptical, sure I believe RAW has had intelligence networks conducting clandestine operations inside Pakistan for decades yet, I get this feeling the Indians are trying to disguise their own shortcomings by declaring magnanimity, just like they claim they could have captured Lahore and Sialkot when we all know the reality of the situation and the actions of the cowardly Major Gen Prasad.Kudos Sarge



There are million more revelations about RAW, its networking and operations in Pakistan. Usually nothing is told to the Pakistani public by our own intelligence agencies and there are many different reasons for that. 

I dont want to sound like im on an agenda on exposing RAW ops in Pakistan and probably derail the thread. Circumstances will themselves keep coming up with time.

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## Lurch Adams

Sarge said:


> You are merely repeating what i said with a slight change in names. That itself makes your post useless.



You have hurt my feelings by saying that.



Sarge said:


> Arguing for the sake of argument, you have too much time on your hands, i dont.



Which is why you have clocked up over 5 times as many posts as I during the same time on PDF. That totally makes sense.



Sarge said:


> if you still dont know that then i am sure you are hell bent on wasting my time.



You claimed inside knowledge of intelligence operations - namely, that names are never to be revealed. Why was Yadav's name revealed then? Hint - you don't know s**t



Sarge said:


> probably its better to come prepared before senselessly scribbling words here and there , its just frustration showing in your words instead of logical, knowledgeable or any meaningful point.



Your personal opinion masqueraded as facts. But I will take it. 



Sarge said:


> You are at loss of words for RAW so now argument suddenly turns to ISI, thats a trolling tactic.



The comment was made in response to the post that all intelligence agencies behave the same way. It is important to point out that ISI has no parallel in being evil.

You seem to know all about tactics - from intelligence to trolling. About the latter I can see why, but may I ask what your qualifications for the former are?



Sarge said:


> Unfortunately your words lacks any substance for my replies to continue.



There you go...you have hurt me again.



Sarge said:


> Kindly dont quote me again, its pure time wastage even replying you.



If you had said as much at the very beiginning of your response, then I wouldn't have bothered replying in the first place. 

So next time, don't be so clever as to have the last word and then stop the conversation. We can all play games.


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## cloud4000

Sarge said:


> do you even know what the word "network" means and how its applied in intelligence based ops. Ofcourse you dont



There is also something called compartmentalization too. Yadav only knew about his agents in his network. No proof these 18 were Yadav's agents. If so, it would be foolish to keep them when their control officer was compromised. But if it makes you feel better.


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## Bilal Khan 777

cloud4000 said:


> There is also something called compartmentalization too. Yadav only knew about his agents in his network. No proof these 18 were Yadav's agents. If so, it would be foolish to keep them when their control officer was compromised. But if it makes you feel better.



Cdr KY has been made public as he raised his hand after the first hour in interrogation and said I am a Navy Commander, please don't beat me like this. There are other operators also in custody who are much more hardened, and don't speak up. 

This sad and vicious cycle of violence will continue, to what end? This is the most unfortunate development of a right wing government in India that is going on the covert offensive while Pakistan's hands are tied eliminating the artifacts of the Afghan conflict, which India also suffers from. However, but diverting the Pakistani attention, India itself help bring alive a monster that will hurt all of India more than it will hurt Pakistan. Self defeating strategy?

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## Spectre

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Cdr KY has been made public as he raised his hand after the first hour in interrogation and said I am a Navy Commander, please don't beat me like this. There are other operators also in custody who are much more hardened, and don't speak up.
> 
> This sad and vicious cycle of violence will continue, to what end? This is the most unfortunate development of a right wing government in India that is going on the covert offensive while Pakistan's hands are tied eliminating the artifacts of the Afghan conflict, which India also suffers from. However, but diverting the Pakistani attention, India itself help bring alive a monster that will hurt all of India more than it will hurt Pakistan. Self defeating strategy?



None of which takes into account the active support by Pakistani state to anti India interests and proxies. India responds righteously and proportionally. Consider the Indo-China dimension - despite having more or less same legacy issues like water and boundary disputes, there is no bloodshed or overt violence. Stand offs and flashpoints are resolved diplomatically.

This appeal for respite in light of bad taliban ops by playing the victim card is just a transparent holding action, the kinds which we have seen multiple times and as such unlikely to cut any ice - right wing govt or not.

The other point is that despite the appearance of complete supremacy of political leadership when it comes to national security and foreign policy, the reality is not so clear cut. India has it's own deep state with many actors ranging from influential businessmen, religious leaders, retired army personnel and bureaucrats who play an important role in decision making. Politicians for the most part are allowed to tweak but not wreck the national interest barring few exceptions like Gujral and Rajiv Gandhi. If one follows Indian policy closely, the appearance of complete upheaval closely hides the broader continuity.

@Joe Shearer


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## Keith420

django said:


> Forget about Pakistan dude, tell a Punjabi Jatt Sikh that he is ethnically same as a Tamil. chances are you will be paying a visit to the dentist, now do yourself a favour and log off before you embarrass yourself any further.
> 
> 
> That is an interesting read about Desai and his supposed revelations, I for one am somewhat skeptical, sure I believe RAW has had intelligence networks conducting clandestine operations inside Pakistan for decades yet, I get this feeling the Indians are trying to disguise their own shortcomings by declaring magnanimity, just like they claim they could have captured Lahore and Sialkot when we all know the reality of the situation and the actions of the cowardly Major Gen Prasad.Kudos Sarge


bro, at least u know somethings we called as human race ? Aryans/Dravidian/Mongolians ? 
Punjabi and Tamil r difference race all together.


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## django

Keith420 said:


> Punjabi and Tamil r difference race all together.


On that we can certainly agree, though their are some Indians on this forum who state Bengals, Tamils and Punjabis are basically the same race.

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## The Eagle

Lurch Adams said:


> Look, I am sure you are aware of the term "false equivalence". They must be doing it as well - that is the most favourite way to expunge guilt.
> 
> ISI's role in fomenting trouble is well-documented.
> 
> http://www.cfr.org/pakistan/isi-terrorism-behind-accusations/p11644
> 
> As far as India's/RAW's role is concerned, if there are any concrete _non-partisan_ references, then I am all ears.



The terms are referenced through way of propaganda though none are angel. It is always about to learn from others and R&AW isn't innocent all that even attempting to sabotage from Afghanistan handling. Kulbhushan chapter is a bit of the story line that leads deep in history and for the further reference, see what Doval says that he is still active to train such proxies in Kenya. It is the matter of nation first so one party cannot be discounted with such. This side in past, paid less attention for media propaganda but now it is all about the what the adversary brought on.


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## Lurch Adams

The Eagle said:


> The terms are referenced through way of propaganda though none are angel. It is always about to learn from others and R&AW isn't innocent all that even attempting to sabotage from Afghanistan handling. Kulbhushan chapter is a bit of the story line that leads deep in history and for the further reference, see what Doval says that he is still active to train such proxies in Kenya. It is the matter of nation first so one party cannot be discounted with such. This side in past, paid less attention for media propaganda but now it is all about the what the adversary brought on.



Ok let us for a moment assume that what you say about R&AW is correct. But, you yourself acknowledged that these efforts are counter-productive/useless in the long term. If so, then which country would be better served by learning that lesson - the one which denies using covert ops and asymmetric warfare as a central tenet or one that takes pride in it.

I am assuming that you will not deny that Pakistan's brazenness in using proxies became subdued only after 9/11, when global consensus started changing. Even then, things hardly changed. I am sure you have watched the shocking interview given by Asad Durrani at the Oxford Union sometime back. Now it is one thing to say that gullible people will not understand how realpolitik works, but there are some people with a minimum sense of propriety. 

Also, there is the small matter of how Indian bureaucracy functions. I concede that since the thread was about so-called Indian spies, discussing ISI is not really needed. I have some experience of how things work in Indian government. I can share my experience with you if you are interested. That will be a more fruitful discussion, as you will realize how incapable R&AW really is.


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## The Eagle

Lurch Adams said:


> Ok let us for a moment assume that what you say about R&AW is correct. But, you yourself acknowledged that these efforts are counter-productive/useless in the long term. If so, then which country would be better served by learning that lesson - the one which denies using covert ops and asymmetric warfare as a central tenet or one that takes pride in it.
> 
> I am assuming that you will not deny that Pakistan's brazenness in using proxies became subdued only after 9/11, when global consensus started changing. Even then, things hardly changed. I am sure you have watched the shocking interview given by Asad Durrani at the Oxford Union sometime back. Now it is one thing to say that gullible people will not understand how realpolitik works, but there are some people with a minimum sense of propriety.
> 
> Also, there is the small matter of how Indian bureaucracy functions. I concede that since the thread was about so-called Indian spies, discussing ISI is not really needed. I have some experience of how things work in Indian government. I can share my experience with you if you are interested. That will be a more fruitful discussion, as you will realize how incapable R&AW really is.



If it is about using the proxies then you must be aware about Mukti Bahni and her utilization so this is how things are taught by doing so like you imply an idea and execute and on the very same time the other party learns a lot. If these are also like so-called Kulbhushan (initially claimed by India as so-called) then your authorities knows what do so no worries.

R&AW is incapable, indeed a testimony to be told at lower level so to understand it, we need to see things from learning point of view than pure nationalism in respect of just capabilities of one. But with a mindset of blaming the ISI, it is hard to understand what R&AW has been doing in Pakistan. 

The ring of Indian spies, busted in Pakistan is the proof and except the common people, professional knows how such assets costs them when neutralized that the strategies, investments and all goes in drain. There is going to be more in near future just because R&AW thought it to be the same as past but this time, especially since Kulbhushan, things are changed. 

You may understand that pure spying on enemy is different thing that relates to be kept on self updated about the development of enemy then being involved in direct terrorism. The game is played on the basis that "you do this I will do that". 

ISI is also not that competent what the people in India have been told with. Trust me, there is no such interest in knowing about what the lower level has been told with incapabilities of R&AW but on other hand, what NaMO, Doval, Surbajeet etc tells, is totally different and almost close to real thing that you may consider against what you have been told at such level. Let us be done with a gateway through Afghanistan, things will unfold to many to understand and see the real picture.


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## Lurch Adams

The Eagle said:


> If it is about using the proxies then you must be aware about Mukti Bahni and her utilization so this is how things are taught by doing so like you imply an idea and execute and on the very same time the other party learns a lot. If these are also like so-called Kulbhushan (initially claimed by India as so-called) then your authorities knows what do so no worries.
> 
> R&AW is incapable, indeed a testimony to be told at lower level so to understand it, we need to see things from learning point of view than pure nationalism in respect of just capabilities of one. But with a mindset of blaming the ISI, it is hard to understand what R&AW has been doing in Pakistan.
> 
> The ring of Indian spies, busted in Pakistan is the proof and except the common people, professional knows how such assets costs them when neutralized that the strategies, investments and all goes in drain. There is going to be more in near future just because R&AW thought it to be the same as past but this time, especially since Kulbhushan, things are changed.
> 
> You may understand that pure spying on enemy is different thing that relates to be kept on self updated about the development of enemy then being involved in direct terrorism. The game is played on the basis that "you do this I will do that".
> 
> ISI is also not that competent what the people in India have been told with. Trust me, there is no such interest in knowing about what the lower level has been told with incapabilities of R&AW but on other hand, what NaMO, Doval, Surbajeet etc tells, is totally different and almost close to real thing that you may consider against what you have been told at such level. Let us be done with a gateway through Afghanistan, things will unfold to many to understand and see the real picture.



Look, the case of Mukti Bahini was not very different than that of the Afghan Mujahideen during Afghan War. When millions of refugees come into your country escaping brutality, the least one can do is help in whichever way we can.

But therein arose the difference. Mukti Bahini was a one-time enterprise for us. The only other misadventure was the lame and half-baked support to LTTE under Indira Gandhi which was very quickly reverted. But the Afghan War propelled the ISI into a different league - the assets, autonomy of action and ability to raise finances through weapons, currency counterfeiting and narcotics never really went away. Pakistan's experiment merely began with the Afghan War, where it should have stopped.

You have to understand the mindset of the Civilian leadership in India. They use the same system of total control over intelligence as they use over the military - the Indian political class is extremely suspicious of both. Our defence ministers have traditionally been so incompetent that the Head of R&AW reports to the Cabinet Secretary - who himself has no experience in these things.

The purpose is to keep them on a tight leash of bureaucratic oversight. Our civilian leadership has never really cared about developing intelligence agencies - just as defence procurement is held hostage to the whims of incompetent Defence Ministers who know nothing and rarely listen to the armed forces. For that matter, Brajesh Mishra as NSA was the first time we got some coherence into our security apparatus. And while Pakistanis might treat Doval as the devil incarnate, he is just a guy with a bucket trying to empty the ocean of incompetence that is our intelligence and security system.

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## The Eagle

Lurch Adams said:


> Look, the case of Mukti Bahini was not very different than that of the Afghan Mujahideen during Afghan War. When millions of refugees come into your country escaping brutality, the least one can do is help in whichever way we can.
> 
> But therein arose the difference. Mukti Bahini was a one-time enterprise for us. The only other misadventure was the lame and half-baked support to LTTE under Indira Gandhi which was very quickly reverted. But the Afghan War propelled the ISI into a different league - the assets, autonomy of action and ability to raise finances through weapons, currency counterfeiting and narcotics never really went away. Pakistan's experiment merely began with the Afghan War, where it should have stopped.
> 
> You have to understand the mindset of the Civilian leadership in India. They use the same system of total control over intelligence as they use over the military - the Indian political class is extremely suspicious of both. Our defence ministers have traditionally been so incompetent that the Head of R&AW reports to the Cabinet Secretary - who himself has no experience in these things.
> 
> The purpose is to keep them on a tight leash of bureaucratic oversight. Our civilian leadership has never really cared about developing intelligence agencies - just as defence procurement is held hostage to the whims of incompetent Defence Ministers who know nothing and rarely listen to the armed forces. For that matter, Brajesh Mishra as NSA was the first time we got some coherence into our security apparatus. And while Pakistanis might treat Doval as the devil incarnate, he is just a guy with a bucket trying to empty the ocean of incompetence that is our intelligence and security system.



The capabilities you mentioned, speaks volume about the Mindset the R&AW taught to people. There is no one time enterprise and it is evident that people in India are way far than the reality that indeed none knows much about on either side. But, they way you mentioned the innocence & strictness towards R&AW, are public book chapters and seems like working as Green Peace organization that wants to plant trees and flowers in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

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## Nicky G

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> it's off topic but i still find it amazing how india is a country where radical extremists are the ones actually in charge - hiding behind the garb of "nationalism" (if they ever knew what such a thing really is) killed the *founding father of their nation *and a large enough number of people still worship them like idols



Grow past silly Congress propaganda. There is no 'father of nation' in India. 



Clutch said:


> Stick to the topic folks.
> 
> Indian covert action and even Indian terrorism means that they are aware of the potential of CPEC.
> 
> 18 Indian terrorists is a huge deal... number wise that's as big group as the 9/11 al Qaeeda group that attacked America.
> 
> Pak army was right to give CPEC the top priority in protecting it.
> 
> Even Indian members here on are active in cyber attacks (via misinformation). The indian members here are not part of RAW or any organized group... they are just in rage about CPEC and the opportunity it presents to Pakistan.. Their wet dreams of a "failed pakistan" are becoming even more laughable... that's actually worse
> .. It's worse that the anti CPEC Indians on this forum aren't part of RAW or some organized group... *because it just shows the deep rooted hatred and venom they as a race hold for us ... it's in their blood.* You expect peace from these people? Not in a million years.
> 
> CPEC is a reality now learn to live with it.... Or our armed forces will continue to turn you into cocroaches...



Projection. The response of Pak members on Indian casualties reveals the actual hatred.

If you claim an Indian hand, provide proof. 

Even if that's the case, Pak is an enemy state. Indian agencies would not be doing their jobs if they weren't working to undermine an enemy nation. CPEC is nothing special in that regard.


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## Lurch Adams

The Eagle said:


> But, they way you mentioned the innocence & strictness towards R&AW, are public book chapters and seems like working as Green Peace organization that wants to plant trees and flowers in Pakistan and Afghanistan.



Hahaha...definitely not. I am sure that if given half a chance R&AW would love to wreak havoc in Pakistan, and most Indians would cheer it as payback for Khalistan/Kashmir/North East/Mumbai/Pathankot/Uri etc. But the problem is, R&AW is not insulated from the bureaucratic red tape which envelops South Asia.

I know what you are thinking - how will a normal civilian know about the inner workings of an intelligence agency? I admit that I do not know specifics about R&AW, but I have experience of dealing with Ministers and Bureaucrats - A LOT of them. The culture of a tunnel-vision towards protecting their personal fiefdom at the cost of everything is endemic. They don't care about national interest and such airy-fairy things. Most times, inputs from technocrats and field officers are ignored just to show them who is boss. As examples, read about V.K. Krishna Menon and his deliberate sabotage of our armed forces. Also, study our defence procurement policy - which is purely aimed at kickbacks and keeping the armed forces weak through ad-hoc purchases and futile reliance on DRDO which makes no sense.

It is not that there are no exceptions to this rule in India, for example ISRO somehow managed to escape the culture of mediocrity and moribund existence-for-the-sake-of-itself. But it is an exception - just as ISI is.

Because I think you have a valid point, so I will tell you how I gathered my perceptions about the inner workings of our government. I work in IT. NIC is the nodal agency which implements all IT systems related with the government. So I have been involved in designing IT systems for many ministries and departments, including defence. In the course of my work, I have met ministers, IAS officers, etc. The general reaction is total indifference - they don't give a damn about efficiency, reducing errors, redundancy, etc. If they at all show interest, it is in those aspects of the system which will help in avoiding accountability for delays and mistakes. That's all.

Now the thing is, R&AW has to work within this framework. No matter what it wants, the Mantris and Babus have their own agenda. The deep state in India is of scumbags who care about nothing but money and power. There is no ideology involved. Creating trouble in Pakistan in the hope of long-term gains is not something that profits anyone personally. So it is of no priority.

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## Clutch

Nicky G said:


> Grow past silly Congress propaganda. There is no 'father of nation' in India.
> 
> 
> 
> Projection. The response of Pak members on Indian casualties reveals the actual hatred.
> 
> If you claim an Indian hand, provide proof.
> 
> Even if that's the case, Pak is an enemy state. Indian agencies would not be doing their jobs if they weren't working to undermine an enemy nation. CPEC is nothing special in that regard.



Actually we believe you are actually doing projection... you are the terrorists accusing us falsky of being that instead.

Our security agencies wouldn't be doing their job if they weren't keeping tabs on the enemy state south of us.

Moo par ram ram bakhaal may chouree


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## war&peace

These RAW monkeys should be beheaded publicly.


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## Chhatrapati

Clutch said:


> Actually we believe you are actually doing projection... you are the terrorists accusing us falsky of being that instead.
> 
> Our security agencies wouldn't be doing their job if they weren't keeping tabs on the enemy state south of us.
> 
> Moo par ram ram bakhaal may chouree



If you say R&AW wants to sabotage CPEC. Tell me some good reason to do that? 
Nobody in India has a problem with "developed" Pakistan
Don't quote media reports as proof. Media goes gaga without any reasons. Those are speculations.


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## Clutch

SOUTHie said:


> If you say R&AW wants to sabotage CPEC. Tell me some good reason to do that?
> Nobody in India has a problem with "developed" Pakistan
> Don't quote media reports as proof. Media goes gaga without any reasons. Those are speculations.


Posts on this forum by Indians should answer that for you... or just look at Modi's wet Dhoti each time he hears CPEC...


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## Chhatrapati

Clutch said:


> Posts on this forum by Indians should answer that for you... or just look at Modi's wet Dhoti each time he hears CPEC...


People who can't speak straight and only knows to troll are the real disadvantage of this forum. 
Indians, nonetheless Modi gives a damn about CPEC, our only concern is it passes through Azad Kashmir. (We did't raise CPEC concern until this Kashmir drama 2016)


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## Chanakyaa

Lurch Adams said:


> Look, the case of Mukti Bahini was not very different than that of the Afghan Mujahideen during Afghan War. When millions of refugees come into your country escaping brutality, the least one can do is help in whichever way we can.
> 
> But therein arose the difference. Mukti Bahini was a one-time enterprise for us. The only other misadventure was the lame and half-baked support to LTTE under Indira Gandhi which was very quickly reverted. But the Afghan War propelled the ISI into a different league - the assets, autonomy of action and ability to raise finances through weapons, currency counterfeiting and narcotics never really went away. Pakistan's experiment merely began with the Afghan War, where it should have stopped.
> 
> You have to understand the mindset of the Civilian leadership in India. They use the same system of total control over intelligence as they use over the military - the Indian political class is extremely suspicious of both. Our defence ministers have traditionally been so incompetent that the Head of R&AW reports to the Cabinet Secretary - who himself has no experience in these things.
> 
> The purpose is to keep them on a tight leash of bureaucratic oversight. Our civilian leadership has never really cared about developing intelligence agencies - just as defence procurement is held hostage to the whims of incompetent Defence Ministers who know nothing and rarely listen to the armed forces. For that matter, Brajesh Mishra as NSA was the first time we got some coherence into our security apparatus. And while Pakistanis might treat Doval as the devil incarnate, he is just a guy with a bucket trying to empty the ocean of incompetence that is our intelligence and security system.



Loved ur Post. Well Written !

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## The Eagle

Lurch Adams said:


> Hahaha...definitely not. I am sure that if given half a chance R&AW would love to wreak havoc in Pakistan, and most Indians would cheer it as payback for Khalistan/Kashmir/North East/Mumbai/Pathankot/Uri etc. But the problem is, R&AW is not insulated from the bureaucratic red tape which envelops South Asia.
> 
> I know what you are thinking - how will a normal civilian know about the inner workings of an intelligence agency? I admit that I do not know specifics about R&AW, but I have experience of dealing with Ministers and Bureaucrats - A LOT of them. The culture of a tunnel-vision towards protecting their personal fiefdom at the cost of everything is endemic. They don't care about national interest and such airy-fairy things. Most times, inputs from technocrats and field officers are ignored just to show them who is boss. As examples, read about V.K. Krishna Menon and his deliberate sabotage of our armed forces. Also, study our defence procurement policy - which is purely aimed at kickbacks and keeping the armed forces weak through ad-hoc purchases and futile reliance on DRDO which makes no sense.
> 
> It is not that there are no exceptions to this rule in India, for example ISRO somehow managed to escape the culture of mediocrity and moribund existence-for-the-sake-of-itself. But it is an exception - just as ISI is.
> 
> Because I think you have a valid point, so I will tell you how I gathered my perceptions about the inner workings of our government. I work in IT. NIC is the nodal agency which implements all IT systems related with the government. So I have been involved in designing IT systems for many ministries and departments, including defence. In the course of my work, I have met ministers, IAS officers, etc. The general reaction is total indifference - they don't give a damn about efficiency, reducing errors, redundancy, etc. If they at all show interest, it is in those aspects of the system which will help in avoiding accountability for delays and mistakes. That's all.
> 
> Now the thing is, R&AW has to work within this framework. No matter what it wants, the Mantris and Babus have their own agenda. The deep state in India is of scumbags who care about nothing but money and power. There is no ideology involved. Creating trouble in Pakistan in the hope of long-term gains is not something that profits anyone personally. So it is of no priority.



The sudden change of narrative w.r.t R&AW became incapable and etc, damage control cannot be applied for it is too late. You just noticed being contractor/outsider but I like the way you try to bring on a point to discount the R&AW like this.


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## Lurch Adams

XiNiX said:


> Loved ur Post. Well Written !



Thanks.



The Eagle said:


> The sudden change of narrative w.r.t R&AW became incapable and etc, damage control cannot be applied for it is too late. You just noticed being contractor/outsider but I like the way you try to bring on a point to discount the R&AW like this.



You are welcome to come to India. I will take you to meet some senior bureaucrats. You will get my point.

Decisive action does take place, but only when the fear of public backlash overcomes inertia. I am not saying that there is no Indian involvement in anything that happens in Pakistan. Najam Sethi described it best when he said that the Baloch separatists, fearing for their lives, literally jumped into India's arms. We did not approach them. We did not create them. At best, some funding through clandestine channels. Ironically, it is highly likely that these are the same channels in Dubai etc. which other agencies such as ISI use.

But please do not credit R&AW with such extensive capabilities in human intelligence and covert ops. I am sure they are highly flattered at these phantom achievements.


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## The Eagle

Lurch Adams said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> You are welcome to come to India. I will take you to meet some senior bureaucrats. You will get my point.
> 
> Decisive action does take place, but only when the fear of public backlash overcomes inertia. I am not saying that there is no Indian involvement in anything that happens in Pakistan. Najam Sethi described it best when he said that the Baloch separatists, fearing for their lives, literally jumped into India's arms. We did not approach them. We did not create them. At best, some funding through clandestine channels. Ironically, it is highly likely that these are the same channels in Dubai etc. which other agencies such as ISI use.
> 
> But please do not credit R&AW with such extensive capabilities in human intelligence and covert ops. I am sure they are highly flattered at these phantom achievements.



Thanks for the invitation.

The channels being used by the agencies are more of a kind of like a web that sometimes newbies are lost and tangled that couldn't make it to the right point. What Najam Sethi said is something that Hamid Mir and Sethi have been busy throughout their career to do so and more onto that, do you know, Sethi is the one that had links with BLA/BRF/BLF in seventies around. He is one of the most controversial person that NS appointed in Government ranks, proven that how R&AW is busy doing her business that it isn't always about terrorism through blasts and killings but there are different way for such espionage. With respect to debate and sources, Sethi, Asma and Mir alike are most favourite connections for Indians. What about CM Delhi, if I am not wrong, the guy who asked for strikes proof and being labeled as traitor then NDTV being labeled as ISI Channel, furthermore people like Barkha etc that are mostly painted as ISI not through the public but indeed such business is at high & who does it, you know. 

The terrorists, so far we have apprehended, are validating the same connection. For the mere example and a reference, search the confession video of Kulbhushan along with Mehsud, that was captured from NDS/R&AW Convoy in Afghanistan by Americans and soon handed over to Pakistan and you will have the idea as well that to what extent R&AW has been doing things until & unless you did not make you mind to totally discount or try here to paint R&AW as most innocent under cover of incapable that like we are not aware of, aren't we?. Pakistan is very well aware of such capabilities of R&AW throughout more than couple of decades that what it is up-to and can do and such experience cannot be just brushed away like this. 

It is not about crediting unnecessarily but there are things indicates and proves about R&AW involvement. Your bureaucrats did not tell you the exact thing that how could you expect me to be told with such by the same people. I am not sure that I wouldn't be labeled an ISI, right at the time I am there.


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## Lurch Adams

The Eagle said:


> Thanks for the invitation.
> 
> The channels being used by the agencies are more of a kind of like a web that sometimes newbies are lost and tangled that couldn't make it to the right point. What Najam Sethi said is something that Hamid Mir and Sethi have been busy throughout their career to do so and more onto that, do you know, Sethi is the one that had links with BLA/BRF/BLF in seventies around. He is one of the most controversial person that NS appointed in Government ranks, proven that how R&AW is busy doing her business that it isn't always about terrorism through blasts and killings but there are different way for such espionage. With respect to debate and sources, Sethi, Asma and Mir alike are most favourite connections for Indians. What about CM Delhi, if I am not wrong, the guy who asked for strikes proof and being labeled as traitor then NDTV being labeled as ISI Channel, furthermore people like Barkha etc that are mostly painted as ISI not through the public but indeed such business is at high & who does it, you know.
> 
> The terrorists, so far we have apprehended, are validating the same connection. For the mere example and a reference, search the confession video of Kulbhushan along with Mehsud, that was captured from NDS/R&AW Convoy in Afghanistan by Americans and soon handed over to Pakistan and you will have the idea as well that to what extent R&AW has been doing things until & unless you did not make you mind to totally discount or try here to paint R&AW as most innocent under cover of incapable that like we are not aware of, aren't we?. Pakistan is very well aware of such capabilities of R&AW throughout more than couple of decades that what it is up-to and can do and such experience cannot be just brushed away like this.
> 
> It is not about crediting unnecessarily but there are things indicates and proves about R&AW involvement. Your bureaucrats did not tell you the exact thing that how could you expect me to be told with such by the same people. I am not sure that I wouldn't be labeled an ISI, right at the time I am there.



I have followed some of the work that Sethi has done. He went to jail for it. IMO Pakistan is lucky to have voices like Najam Sethi, Hassan Nisar, Asma Jahangir, Pervez Hoodbhoy, Cyril Almeida, etc. Now you may think that I like them because they have a particular slant to their writing. But they speak and write on varied subjects, not just Pak-India relations. I guess liberals share common sensibilities and I admire them as such.

About the tendency to see conspiracy in the words of Kejriwal or Barkha Dutt - that is indeed unfortunate. They have as much right to express an opinion as anyone else. But then these rights must be respected universally. There has been a frequent call from Pakistan for respecting freedom of speech, protection of minority rights, etc., in India, which are much less respected in Pakistan itself. I agree that India needs to do a lot more to become a truly free and progressive society. But Pakistanis would be better served by realizing that they expect others to follow moral standards which they themselves as a society refuse to uphold.


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## The Eagle

Lurch Adams said:


> I have followed some of the work that Sethi has done. He went to jail for it. IMO Pakistan is lucky to have voices like Najam Sethi, Hassan Nisar, Asma Jahangir, Pervez Hoodbhoy, Cyril Almeida, etc. Now you may think that I like them because they have a particular slant to their writing. But they speak and write on varied subjects, not just Pak-India relations. I guess liberals share common sensibilities and I admire them as such.



Speaks volume so indeed a certificate how things are working. I would say, we don't need an enemy where we have people like Asma, Hoodbhoy and Sethi and your attraction is nothing new for me in these circumstances. 




> About the tendency to see conspiracy in the words of Kejriwal or Barkha Dutt - that is indeed unfortunate. They have as much right to express an opinion as anyone else. But then these rights must be respected universally. There has been a frequent call from Pakistan for respecting freedom of speech, protection of minority rights, etc., in India, which are much less respected in Pakistan itself. I agree that India needs to do a lot more to become a truly free and progressive society. But Pakistanis would be better served by realizing that they expect others to follow moral standards which they themselves as a society refuse to uphold.



Why to discount India w.r.t. rights of Government in-case of freedom of speech for Kejriwal etc because it is against the national interest so you like my enemy and I do the same with you, is the game mostly played hence no direct involvement. Nationalism wants you to see what happening in Pakistan, not what GoI is doing, but to the extent whereby you are not able to see what going around. The respect for minorities by the Government is nowhere less than any other country expects by the Law though down in the line, that again comes to the pawn and sold-out people, that mostly attack others as being well paid by the adversary. You can't judge Pakistan that your own yard is filled with all of such things but still, you see what we have been discussing about R&AW's doing as you are clearly discounting India but to blame Pakistan for everything. You are dong the same job what they want you to do and it is like copy pasting the same narratives. I am not going towards the minority thing in India that you know well but the subject about R&AW involvement in Pakistan is pretty clear for us. You count mine and I count yours, mishandling etc, but wouldn't change the reality only as what you are trying to prove it that, is nothing but the same as others have a mindset about Pakistan.


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