# Ultra Far Right Nationalism on the rise in Europe and Russia



## Desert Fox

*Far right on rise in Europe, says report*








Extremist Norwegian Anders Behring Breivik (left), who went on a killing spree in Norway in July. A new Facebook-based study has revealed a rise in far right political views throughout Europe. Photograph: Scanpix Norway/Reuters

The far right is on the rise across Europe as a new generation of young, web-based supporters embrace hardline nationalist and anti-immigrant groups, a study has revealed ahead of a meeting of politicians and academics in Brussels to examine the phenomenon.






Research by the British thinktank Demos for the first time examines attitudes among supporters of the far right online. Using advertisements on Facebook group pages, they persuaded more than 10,000 followers of 14 parties and street organisations in 11 countries to fill in detailed questionnaires.

*The study reveals a continent-wide spread of hardline nationalist sentiment among the young, mainly men. Deeply cynical about their own governments and the EU, their generalised fear about the future is focused on cultural identity, with immigration  particularly a perceived spread of Islamic influence  a concern.*

"We're at a crossroads in European history," said Emine Bozkurt, a Dutch MEP who heads the anti-racism lobby at the European parliament. "In five years' time we will either see an increase in the forces of hatred and division in society, including ultra-nationalism, xenophobia, Islamophobia and antisemitism, or we will be able to fight this horrific tendency."

The report comes just over three months after Anders Breivik, a supporter of hard right groups, shot dead 69 people at youth camp near Oslo. While he was disowned by the parties, police examination of his contacts highlighted the Europe-wide online discussion of anti-immigrant and nationalist ideas.

Data in the study was mainly collected in July and August, before the worsening of the eurozone crisis. The report highlights the prevalence of anti-immigrant feeling, especially suspicion of Muslims. "As antisemitism was a unifying factor for far-right parties in the 1910s, 20s and 30s, Islamophobia has become the unifying factor in the early decades of the 21st century," said Thomas Klau from the European Council on Foreign Relations, who will speak at Monday's conference.

Parties touting anti-immigrant and Islamophobic ideas have spread beyond established strongholds in France, Italy and Austria to the traditionally liberal Netherlands and Scandinavia, and now have significant parliamentary blocs in eight countries. Other nations have seen the rise of nationalist street movements like the English Defence League (EDL). But, experts say, polling booths and demos are only part of the picture: online, a new generation is following these organisations and swapping ideas, particularly through Facebook. For most parties the numbers online are significantly bigger than their formal membership.

The phenomenon is sometimes difficult to pin down given the guises under which such groups operate. At one end are parties like France's National Front, a significant force in the country's politics for 25 years and seen as a realistic challenger in next year's presidential election. At the other are semi-organised street movements like the EDL, which struggles to muster more than a few hundred supporters for occasional demonstrations, or France's Muslim-baiting Bloc Indentitaire, best known for serving a pork-based "identity soup" to homeless people.

Others still take an almost pick-and-mix approach to ideology; a number of the Scandinavian parties which have flourished in recent years combine decidedly left-leaning views on welfare with vehement opposition to all forms of multiculturalism.

Youth, Demos found, was a common factor. Facebook's own advertising tool let Demos crunch data from almost 450,000 supporters of the 14 organisations. Almost two-thirds were aged under 30, against half of Facebook users overall. Threequarters were male, and more likely than average to be unemployed.

The separate anonymous surveys showed a repeated focus on immigration, specifically a perceived threat from Muslim populations. This rose with younger supporters, contrary to most previous surveys which found greater opposition to immigration among older people. An open-ended question about what first drew respondents to the parties saw Islam and immigration listed far more often than economic worries. Answers were sometimes crude  "The foreigners are slowly suffocating our lovely country. They have all these children and raise them so badly," went one from a supporter of the Danish People's Party. Others argued that Islam is simply antithetical to a liberal democracy, a view espoused most vocally by Geert Wilders, the Dutch leader of the Party for Freedom, which only six years after it was founded is the third-biggest force in the country's parliament.

This is a "key point" for the new populist-nationalists, said Matthew Goodwin from Nottingham University, an expert on the far right. "As an appeal to voters, it marks a very significant departure from the old, toxic far-right like the BNP. What some parties are trying to do is frame opposition to immigration in a way that is acceptable to large numbers of people. Voters now are turned off by crude, blatant racism  we know that from a series of surveys and polls.

"[These groups are] saying to voters: it's not racist to oppose these groups if you're doing it from the point of view of defending your domestic traditions. This is the reason why people like Geert Wilders have not only attracted a lot of support but have generated allies in the mainstream political establishment and the media."

While the poll shows economics playing a minimal role, analysts believe the eurozone crisis is likely to boost recruitment to anti-EU populist parties which are keen to play up national divisions. "Why do the Austrians, as well as the Germans or the Dutch, constantly have to pay for the bottomless pit of the southern European countries?" asked Heinz-Christian Strache, head of the Freedom Party of Austria, once led by the late Jörg Haider. Such parties have well over doubled their MPs around western Europe in a decade. "What we have seen over the past five years is the emergence of parties in countries which were traditionally seen as immune to the trend  the Sweden Democrats, the True Finns, the resurgence of support for the radical right in the Netherlands, and our own experience with the EDL," said Goodwin.

The phenomenon was now far beyond a mere protest vote, he said, with many supporters expressing worries about national identity thus far largely ignored by mainstream parties.

Gavan Titley, an expert on the politics of racism in Europe and co-author of the recent book The Crises of Multiculturalism, said these mainstream politicians had another responsibility for the rise of the new groups, by too readily adopting casual Islamophobia.

"The language and attitudes of many mainstream parties across Europe during the 'war on terror', especially in its early years, laid the groundwork for much of the language and justifications that these groups are now using around the whole idea of defending liberal values  from gender to freedom of speech," he said.

"Racist strategies constantly adapt to political conditions, and seek new sets of values, language and arguments to make claims to political legitimacy. Over the past decade, Muslim populations around Europe, whatever their backgrounds, have been represented as the enemy within or at least as legitimately under suspicion. It is this very mainstream political repertoire that newer movements have appropriated."

Jamie Bartlett of Demos, the principal author of the report, said it was vital to track the spread of such attitudes among the new generation of online activists far more numerous than formal membership of such parties. "There are hundreds of thousands of them across Europe. They are disillusioned with mainstream politics and European political institutions and worried about the erosion of their cultural and national identity, and are turning to populist movements, who they feel speak to these concerns.

"These activists are largely out of sight of mainstream politicians, but they are motivated, active, and growing in size. Politicians across the continent need to sit up, listen and respond."
Voting trends

As a political party, having tens of thousands of online supporters is one thing but translating these into actual votes can be quite another. However, the Demos survey found that 67% of the Facebook fans of the nationalist-populist groups which put up candidates  some are street movements only  said they had voted for them at the most recent election.

Further analysis found that female supporters were more likely to turn support into a vote, as were those who were employed.

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## Desert Fox

*
Golden Dawn: The alarming rise of Greece's far right*









On a weekday evening, the Golden Dawn headquarters opposite Athens' main station in the neighbourhood of Kolonos is teeming with supporters. A burly man with a thick silver chain around his neck stands at the door. His black T-shirt reads: "Against all."

Pensioners, youths and a priest mill around the room. Mrs Eleftheria, a retired health worker, has been dragged along by a friend. "Golden Dawn has helped people, so I'm curious to see what they're about" she says.

The woman next to Mrs Eleftheria came to ask for the party's help in reclaiming cash that a man owed her.

"We address their complaints, the Golden Dawn MP Ioannis Vouldis says. "Our party's politicians don't live in the rich suburbs like most other MPs. We're part of the neighbourhood."

In less than three years, the party's popularity has shot up from 0.4 per cent of the popular vote to 6.97 per cent in recent elections. Now, that support stands at 12 per cent. With its unyielding criticism of austerity measures and fierce anti-immigrant policies, the party taps many popular anxieties.

But Golden Dawn's help to citizens goes well beyond politics. The party claims it receives calls from distressed landlords whose flats have been occupied by migrants.

Mr Vouldis says his party's men clear the households thanks to their "good face and strong hand".

"They have taken on the role of the police," says 30-year-old Vassilis, a policeman from northern Greece who voted for the party in the last elections. "They provide a good pressure to the political system when corruption goes unpunished and poverty soars."

The broken trust between mainstream politicians and Greeks is only one reason for the rise of the far right. With its nationalist rhetoric, Golden Dawn appeals to the bruised pride of Greeks who see their country surrender to the "diktats" of foreign lenders.

But the rise of the party has ugly consequences. Recently, Golden Dawn MPs smashed the stalls of immigrants in Rafina. Rights groups have criticised the police for standing by while attacks on foreigners have increased. Last Saturday, thugs broke into the home of the imam of the Pakistani community.

"The rise of fascism in Greece is very dangerous," Javed Aslam, president of the Greek Pakistani community, said. "I don't understand how Europe can remain silent about this terrorism."

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## Desert Fox

*Rise of the Fourth Reich: Fears Germany is losing its battle with neo-Nazi menace *






_Seven decades after the downfall of the Third Reich, Germans seem blind to the horrors_

For restaurant owner Uwe Dziuballa, every year from early March the phone calls come with chilling regularity &#8211; callers try to book a table for Adolf Hitler for April 18 &#8211; the Fuhrer&#8217;s birthday.

Since Uwe opened his Kosher restaurant in the eastern German city of Chemnitz in 2000, he has endured hatred and abuse &#8211; from pigs&#8217; heads nailed to his door, to &#8220;You Jew pig&#8221; screamed down the phone and people urinating through the letterbox.

Uwe&#8217;s plight is just a ripple in a rising tide of neo-Nazi hatred in Europe&#8217;s most powerful nation.

Seven decades after the downfall of the Third Reich and over 20 years since reunification, Germans seem blind to the dangers.

&#8220;After an estimated 180 racist killings in Germany since unification in 1990, after countless assaults, cases of intimidation... the conclusion has to be that Germany is losing the battle against the violent far right,&#8221; said authoritative news magazine Der Spiegel this week.

This week German commentators have been reflecting on the rise and rise of those who dream of a Fourth Reich &#8211; because this week marked a terrible anniversary.

It is 20 years since right-wing thugs hurled petrol bombs and bricks at an asylum-seekers&#8217; refuge in the Baltic port of Rostock.

While dozens of extremists were responsible, police and firemen had to retreat in the face of a thousands-strong mob of ordinary people who cheered them on.

Two decades on, some Germans are taking stock of the neo-Nazi menace and can draw little comfort from what they see.






A year ago, the nation was sickened by the crimes of the National Socialist Underground murder squad which assassinated nine immigrant businessmen and a policewoman in a 13-year terror campaign.

&#8220;They are disgrace to our country,&#8221; said Chancellor Angela Merkel at the time.

But the uproar has faded into large-scale indifference and the fertile ground of the former East Germany continues to churn out extremists.

Individuals and authorities try to fight back. Kindergarten teachers are vetted in Mecklenburg Vorpommern &#8211; Merkel&#8217;s home turf &#8211; because the far right indoctrinates children as young as five.

Hoteliers in Brandenburg were last month issued with a new guidebook telling them how to recognise and stop Nazis from staying in their establishments.

They are warned to be suspicious of people who wear the British clothing brand Lonsdale.

Neo-Nazis love it because the NSDA within the brand name are the initials of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei &#8211; the Nazis.

They wave the battle flags of the Kaiser, because all symbols of Nazism are banned. To give the Hitler salute in public is to risk six months in jail.

Yet the racists march on.

There are links to Hitler&#8217;s Nazis. Gudrun Burwitz, 82, whose father was SS overlord Heinrich Himmler, has become &#8220;godmother&#8221; to many female Nazis.

From her home in a leafy suburb of Munich, she is also the leading figure in Stille Hilfe &#8211; Silent Help &#8211; a support group for Nazi war criminals at large.













Anti-racism activist Timo Reinfrank said that *the far-right frequently manages to establish &#8220;nationally liberated zones&#8221; in east and rural west Germany.

&#8220;People who don&#8217;t fit into the Aryan-German world view can&#8217;t go there &#8211; punks, leftists, skaters, immigrants, gays and lesbians,&#8221; Reinfrank says.*

At the same time, far-right parties have successfully made inroads into mainstream politics.

Such a place is Jamal, north-east of Berlin where every home bar one is owned by a neo-Nazi.

They hold pagan festivals around bonfires and cluster round a signpost that tells you how far away Braunau am Inn is &#8211; Hitler&#8217;s Austrian birthplace.

Germany has tried several times to ban the biggest legal far-right party, the NPD, but as long as the country remains two societies &#8211; the richer west and the far poorer east &#8211; the ultra-right will continue to prey on the disadvantaged and malcontented.

And now, disturbingly, it is not only in the east.

Just a week ago, 900 armed police stormed 150 neo-Nazi premises in North Rhine-Westphalia &#8211; the largest swoop ever in western Germany.

It came as the state&#8217;s interior minister Ralf Jaeger banned three Hitler-worshipping groups. Two members of one were stopped en-route to Berlin in 2010 with bombs containing glass shards.

This is the fear of the ruling elite &#8211; armed Nazis, comfortable with violence and not afraid to use it.

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## Yeti

Slavs who are wannabe 'Aryan'  these punks are jobless thugs who think Hitler and Nazis were cool.

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## Chinese-Dragon

The funny thing is that the Nazis considered the Slavs to be "Untermensch" (sub-human).

Nazism and race - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> *At the bottom of this hierarchy were "parasitic" races (of non-"Aryan" origin) or "Untermenschen" ("sub-humans"), which were perceived to be dangerous to society.
> 
> In Nazi literature, the term 'Untermensch' was applied to the Slavs, especially including Russians, Serbs and ethnic Poles. Nazi ideology viewed Slavs as a racially inferior group, who were fit for enslavement, or even extermination. About 2 million non-Jewish Poles were killed by Nazi Germany.*



And now the largest number of Neo-Nazis in the world exist in Slavic countries like Russia and Eastern Europe?

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## Desert Fox

Chinese-Dragon said:


> The funny thing is that the Nazis considered the Slavs to be "Untermensch" (sub-human).
> 
> Nazism and race - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Another allied war propaganda. 

60 million Russians (slavs) murdered in cold blood before and after WW2 at the hands of Communist "liberators".







Chinese-Dragon said:


> And now the largest number of Neo-Nazis in the world exist in Slavic countries like Russia and Eastern Europe?


Ironic indeed that reality, or better yet actions speak louder than words right? 60 million Slavs butchered at the hands of Zionist commisars of the Soviet Union, yet Russians are supposed to hate Hitler and the Nazis.

Perhaps Hitler didn't kill enough "Untermensch" Slavs to be despised by them.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Desert Fox said:


> Another allied war propaganda.



I don't want to argue with you on this issue Desert Fox, since we were on the receiving end of war crimes perpetrated by the Axis Powers during WW2.

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## Desert Fox

Chinese-Dragon said:


> I don't want to argue with you on this issue Desert Fox, since we were on the receiving end of war crimes perpetrated by the Axis Powers during WW2.



Tell me, by your definition, who, or what is a subhuman?

Are these people considered human by your definition:

********.com - Dark skinned french man slaps innocent girl on the street

Are people who rape 12 year old girls, 14 15 year old girls and then justify it with comments like "well, in my country girls her age get married", "she shouldn't have been dressed like a skank", etc, considered human or subhuman?

Lets not forget, 60 million Russians, Ukrainians, and millions of Eastern Europeans butchered, mass starved, executed, and deported to siberia at the hands of Bolsheviks and their commisars (most of whom were staunch Zionists) year before Hitler even came to power in Germany and year after WW2 had ended, i'm sure you wouldn't have taken into consideration their losses or their surviving relatives before you reached that conclusion.

Indeed the Japanese committed crimes against the Chinese, which even the Germans under Hitler criticized them for, however Germany was forced into an alliance with Japan due to the Soviets aggressive policies towards Germany. Germans supported the Chinese Nationalists under Chiang Kai Shek, who also apposed the Japanese, that is until Germany formed anti-communist bloc with Japan.

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## Desert Fox

Yeti said:


> Slavs who are wannabe 'Aryan'  these punks are jobless thugs who think Hitler and Nazis were cool.



I'm guessing you can say the same for the indian assamese who are fed up of bangali immigrants (as the indians have stated is the root of the problem) pouring into their state, taking their jobs and burdening their resources, they too are perhaps a bunch of "jobless punks" concerned about becoming minorities in their own homeland.

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## Yeti

Desert Fox said:


> I'm guessing you can say the same for the indian assamese who are fed up of bangali immigrants (as the indians have stated is the root of the problem) pouring into their state, taking their jobs and burdening their resources, they too are perhaps a bunch of "jobless punks" concerned about becoming minorities in their own homeland.




These Far Right groups in Eastern Europe are known to make monkey noises when a black player touches the football yet they still like to migrate to the liberal cities of the west seeking employment 


Im wondering if there is a direct link with the economic turmoil going on in Greece which has led many to flock to groups like the Golden Dawn and increase the popularity among the masses.


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## Enemy

Desert Fox said:


> Another allied war propaganda.
> 
> 60 million Russians (slavs) murdered in cold blood before and after WW2 at the hands of Communist "liberators".
> 
> Ironic indeed that reality, or better yet actions speak louder than words right? 60 million Slavs butchered at the hands of Zionist commisars of the Soviet Union, yet Russians are supposed to hate Hitler and the Nazis.
> 
> Perhaps Hitler didn't kill enough "Untermensch" Slavs to be despised by them.



Though its a film footage. 






The Allied propaganda machine even tried to project the Katyn Massacre as another Nazi atrocity.

And why are the so called Allied forces silent on Russian invasion of Finland and Poland? 

And Hitler didn't kill enough subhuman Slavs to be invaded by them in return.

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## Desert Fox

*South Asian gangs raping and sexually exploiting vulnerable white young girls 'is an Asian problem', top Crown prosecutor admits *


*The sexual exploitation and grooming of young vulnerable white girls is a 'particular problem in Asian communities', one of Britain's top prosecutors admitted for the first time today.*

In a year when several paedophile gangs were convicted of raping and prostituting victims in north west England, Nazir Afzal says it is impossible not to notice 'that the perpetrators were Asian and the victims were not.'

The Chief Crown Prosecutor for the region added that 'cultural baggage and the status of women among some men in these communities contributes to their disrespect for the rights of women.'

It was claimed last month that fears they would be branded racist meant that police and social services left one group free to rape up to 50 white girls, and Mr Afzal said today he would not 'turn a blind eye.'

It came as the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee announced yesterday a day of evidence next week because its members and chairman Keith Vaz are 'very concerned by the recent cases of child exploitation.'

The Labour MP for Leicester East has previously said: 'I do not think it is a race issue.'

In these disturbing recent cases most victims were white, aged between 13 and 16, many were from vulnerable backgrounds or the care system, and the majority were plied with booze and drugs before being systematically abused.

Speaking to The Times today Mr Afzal said: 'Exploitation happens in every community but these cases demonstrate that group grooming is a particular problem in Asian community. I will not turn a blind eye to crimes in any community.'

More...

Women raped after being thrown off bus for being 20p short of fare was filmed pleading with driver for EIGHT minutes (as officer in charge of case asks why no other passengers gave her the money)
Sex attacker answered mobile while holding down struggling victim and calmly said: Ill call you back in 15 minutes before continuing vicious assault

He spoke out as two Asian men, *Mahfuzur Rahman and Abdul Hannan, were convicted of raping or sexually assaulting four young white women in their area after they picked them up and got them drunk.
*

In an originally botched prosecution in 2009, victims gave detailed evidence about being violently raped by Rahman before charges were dropped because evidence was said to lack credibility.

Once the case was abandoned, Rahman was free to target a 17-year-old from a nearby children's home, plying her with vodka before sexually assaulting her at his flat.

His other victims were also violently raped or assaulted while very drunk.

*And when he was finally arrested and charged with rape again last year individuals close to the case said Rahman told officers: 'Rape? Which one?'*

While last month a sex grooming gang of nine were all jailed, and two set to be deported, after they plied teenagers with alcohol before abusing them in Rochdale, Greater Manchester.

The men - who are all from Pakistan, apart from one who is from Afghanistan - groomed and 'shared' the young white girls because they were vulnerable, and abused them above takeaways and shops.

But during the trial it came out that the authorities could have stopped them two years before their sickening crimes were finally uncovered.

In an interview with MailOnline last month Former Labour MP for Keighley Ann Cryer, who has campaigned on the issue of Asian sex gangs and also preventing forced marriage, said that the authorities did ignore complaints in this case because they were 'petrified of being called racist'.

'Forces have been accused of being institutionally racist. That sort of thing sticks,' she added.

'If you do say things like that about any police force then they will be majorly careful to avoid being being put in line for criticism like that. It may well be that they then steer clear of the tragic events that we are talking about. All because they want to be politically correct.'

"I was kept prisoner by the Asian sex gang predator: Victim tells harrowing story of 'boyfriend' who dubbed his car the 'Rape Rover'"

Pretty teenager Toni-Marie Redfern thought shed found the perfect boyfriend. Polite, handsome, and seven years her senior, he drove a silver BMW, wore designer suits and bought her dinner at her favourite pizza café.

No wonder her schoolfriends were envious. And when he asked her to marry him, she started to make plans for their future.

Yet Toni-Marie eventually learned the truth about Abid Mohammed Saddique.

While they were going out, the British-born man of Pakistani origin was orchestrating what is believed to be the biggest sex-abuse ring ever discovered in Britain, involving up to 100 young girls. 

Last year, Saddique and his accomplice, Mohammed Liaqat, whose Derby-based gang groomed girls (most of whom were white and aged between 12 and 18) for sex, were jailed for bringing a reign of terror to the North Midlands city.

A court heard how the pair  who had undergone arranged marriages in Pakistan  cruised the streets in a BMW or a Range Rover, which Saddique referred to as the Rape Rover.

Girls were chatted up on the street and invited for drives, during which they were plied with vodka or cocaine before being taken to hotel rooms, parks or houses to be abused. Key to the mens conviction was Toni-Marie, now 20, who bravely gave evidence against her ex-lover. 

When I discovered what he had done to those girls, I felt physically sick. He was the puppet master and all his mates were his puppets. Everyone did whatever he told them to do,' she said.

I was a white girl who he wanted to control and prove that he could convert to Islam. I saw him and the gang tell non-Muslim girls they were slags. I believe it was the religion and culture of these men that made them act like that.

In one of the last conversations I had with him, he referred to his Land Rover as the Rape Rover. That is when I knew I had to escape. Id had enough.

Read more: British gangs raping and sexually exploiting vulnerable white young girls 'is an Asian problem', top Crown prosecutor admits | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

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## Desert Fox

Yeti said:


> These Far Right groups in Eastern Europe are known to make monkey noises when a black player touches the football yet they still like to migrate to the liberal cities of the west seeking employment


Western Europe is also facing a similar problem like that which Assam is currently facing.

Now, as the economic situation in the EU countries worsens, violent immigrants continue to leech and take advantage of their hos countries, more and more people will continue to be drawn towards far right Neo-Nazi parties.




Yeti said:


> Im wondering if there is a direct link with the economic turmoil going on in Greece which has led many to flock to groups like the Golden Dawn and increase the popularity among the masses.


Along with immigration, joblessness and soaring prices is also a contributing factor.

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## Desert Fox

Enemy said:


> Though its a film footage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Allied propaganda machine even tried to project the Katyn Massacre as another Nazi atrocity.
> 
> And why are the so called Allied forces silent on Russian invasion of Finland and Poland?
> 
> And Hitler didn't kill enough subhuman Slavs to be invaded by them in return.



Keep in mind that Britain and France (the "righteous" allied "liberators") declared war on Nazi Germany for invading Poland, yet these same Britain and France remained silent when Bolshevik Russia made an attempt to invade Poland in 1920-1921, this too 13 years before Hitler came to power in Germany.

Also, if i'm not wrong Poles are also Slavic people (Western Slavic), yet Polish women were fair game for Red army soldiers and Polish men were slave labor ripe for the Gulags after the Soviets annexed Poland.

I'm glad you brought up the Katyn Forrest Massacre, here is a interesting story about what really happened and who was responsible, even though for decades the Germans were blamed.

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## senheiser

title should be called Europeans and Russians fight against their genocide

But try that to explain to americans living in a country that was cleansed by its indigenous people.

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## mfreak

senheiser said:


> title should be called Europeans and Russians fight against their genocide
> 
> But try that to explain to americans living in a country that was cleansed by its indigenous people.




Come again? Dont give me this "White genocide" bullshit. They will tell you how "muslims" and black people immigrate and have kids, or in some cases marry white women. So these guys have a problem with people sleeping with each other 

These morons should be dragged to the street and shot like dogs, just to prove a point. Nazism should never be allowed at whatever cost.

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## TopCat

I like German Nazis. They are the real things. Other's are just hill billy.


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## humanfirst

Desert Fox said:


> Tell me, by your definition, who, or what is a subhuman?
> 
> Are* these people *considered human by your definition:
> 
> ********.com - Dark skinned french man slaps innocent girl on the street
> 
> Are people who rape 12 year old girls, 14 15 year old girls and then justify it with comments like "well, in my country girls her age get married", "she shouldn't have been dressed like a skank", etc, considered human or subhuman?
> .



That is one suhuman act of a single person..That doesn't mean every single person of their race is subhuman untermensh.I presume you are a pasthun,from some of your earlier posts.
Now Here is some of your pathan cousins stoning a girl in orkazai..
[video]http://www.********.com/ll_embed?f=866eb8cece15[/video]

They sure are subhuman bastards who need to be wiped out for the good of all..But does their actions make you a subhuman because you are a pathan as well..?I can vouch for the fact that it doesn't..Same applies for every race mate..


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## Desert Fox

senheiser said:


> title should be called *Europeans and Russians fight against their *genocide
> 
> But try that to explain to americans living in a country that was cleansed by its indigenous people.



Trust me, i know. However if i gave it that title this thread would have been closed by mods.

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## Desert Fox

*Angela Merkel: German multiculturalism has 'utterly failed'*

Germany's Merkel is right -- multiculturalism has failed - CNN

Matthew Weaver and agencies
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 17 October 2010 06.58 EDT	








German chancellor Angela Merkel addresses young members of Christian Democratic Union party. Photograph: Bernd Settnik/AFP/Getty Images



The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, has courted growing anti-immigrant opinion in Germany by claiming the country's attempts to create a multicultural society have "utterly failed".

Speaking to a meeting of young members of her Christian Democratic Union party, Merkel said the idea of people from different cultural backgrounds living happily "side by side" did not work.

She said the onus was on immigrants to do more to integrate into German society.

"This [multicultural] approach has failed, utterly failed," Merkel told the meeting in Potsdam, west of Berlin, yesterday.

Her remarks will stir a debate about immigration in a country which is home to around 4 million Muslims.

Last week, Horst Seehofer, the premier of Bavaria and a member of the Christian Social Union &#8211; part of Merkel's ruling coalition &#8211; called for a halt to Turkish and Arabic immigration.

In the past, Merkel has tried to straddle both sides of the argument by talking tough on integration but also calling for an acceptance of mosques.

But she faces pressure from within the CDU to take a harder line on immigrants who show resistance to being integrated into German society.

Yesterday's speech is widely seen as a lurch to the right designed to placate that element in her party.

Merkel said too little had been required of immigrants in the past and repeated her argument that they should learn German in order to cope in school and take advantage of opportunities in the labour market.

The row over foreigners in Germany has shifted since former central banker Thilo Sarrazin published a highly-controversial book in which he accused Muslim immigrants of lowering the intelligence of German society.

Sarrazin was censured for his views and dismissed from the Bundesbank, but his book proved popular and polls showed Germans were sympathetic with the thrust of his arguments.

One recent poll showed one-third of Germans believed the country was "overrun by foreigners".

It also found 55% of Germans believed that Arabs are "unpleasant people", compared with the 44% who held the opinion seven years ago.

In her speech, Merkel said the education of unemployed Germans should take priority over recruiting workers from abroad, while noting that Germany could not get by without skilled foreign workers.

The chancellor's remarks appear to confirm a suspicion that she has sympathy with Sarrazin's anti-immigrant rhetoric. On Friday, he declared: "Multiculturalism is dead".

Other members of Merkel's government disagree. In a weekend newspaper interview, her labour minister, Ursula von der Leyen (CDU), raised the possibility of lowering barriers to entry for some foreign workers in order to fight the lack of skilled workers in Europe's largest economy.

"For a few years, more people have been leaving our country than entering it," she told the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung.

"Wherever it is possible, we must lower the entry hurdles for those who bring the country forward."

The German Chamber of Industry and Commerce (DIHK) has said Germany lacks about 400,000 skilled workers.

&#8226; This article was amended on 20 October 2010. The original sited Potsdam south of Berlin. This has been corrected.


I wonder who the idiot is that said you can't label these people subhuman?




















humanfirst said:


> That doesn't mean every single person of their race is subhuman untermensh.



You're right, they're completely civilized human beings, i mean after all only civilized human beings drink the blood of a baby boy or eat the heart of their victims, and that too raw. It's the 21st century, why haven't the backwards Europeans learned from these civilized humans how to kill people randomly and eat their victims?

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## Zabaniyah

Old news...

The number of such parties right now has reached as high as since Nazi Germany era. 

Most of the members of such parties usually consist of people who lack skills and usually have comparatively weak educational backgrounds. 

Particularly among the blue-collar segments. There is a fear that they'd potentially lose jobs to immigrants. This fear is masked by "defense of cultural identity". 

Europe's aging population is a serious threat to its future. They'd ultimately need skilled immigrants in the long term such that their economies can further advance and sustain. This isn't my opinion, but a fact established by the research carried out by an EU think tank. 

Otherwise, they'd potentially lose out to competition from the likes of China, and the US. Even India  

The economic downturn is also playing a role in this. And Greece is a failed economy. If Germany stops giving money to bail out all those beggar EU states like Spain, Portugal, Greece and even Belgium, their economies are finished. It's a never-ending hole of debt. 



iajdani said:


> I like German Nazis. They are the real things. Other's are just hill billy.



I have to admit, the Nazi uniform was so bada$$, that not a single military today can match that level of bada$$ery

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## Desert Fox

*Immigrant gangs establish no go zones in European cities, off limits to Whites*







by Soeren Kern

Islamic extremists are stepping up the creation of "no-go" areas in European cities that are off-limits to non-Muslims.

Many of the "no-go" zones function as microstates governed by Islamic Sharia law. Host-country authorities effectively have lost control in these areas and in many instances are unable to provide even basic public aid such as police, fire fighting and ambulance services.

The "no-go" areas are the by-product of decades of multicultural policies that have encouraged Muslim immigrants to create parallel societies and remain segregated rather than become integrated into their European host nations.

In Britain, for example, a Muslim group called Muslims Against the Crusades has launched a campaign to turn twelve British cities &#8211; including what it calls "Londonistan" &#8211; into independent Islamic states. The so-called Islamic Emirates would function as autonomous enclaves ruled by Islamic Sharia law and operate entirely outside British jurisprudence.

The Islamic Emirates Project names the British cities of Birmingham, Bradford, Derby, Dewsbury, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, Luton, Manchester, Sheffield, as well as Waltham Forest in northeast London and Tower Hamlets in East London as territories to be targeted for blanket Sharia rule.

In the Tower Hamlets area of East London (also known as the Islamic Republic of Tower Hamlets), for example, extremist Muslim preachers, called the Tower Hamlets Taliban, regularly issue death threats to women who refuse to wear Islamic veils. Neighborhood streets have been plastered with posters declaring "You are entering a Sharia controlled zone: Islamic rules enforced." And street advertising deemed offensive to Muslims is regularly vandalized or blacked out with spray paint.

In the Bury Park area of Luton, Muslims have been accused of "ethnic cleansing" by harassing non-Muslims to the point that many of them move out of Muslim neighborhoods. In the West Midlands, two Christian preachers have been accused of "hate crimes" for handing out gospel leaflets in a predominantly Muslim area of Birmingham. In Leytonstone in east London, the Muslim extremist Abu Izzadeen heckled the former Home Secretary John Reid by saying: "How dare you come to a Muslim area."

In France, large swaths of Muslim neighborhoods are now considered "no-go" zones by French police. At last count, there are 751 Sensitive Urban Zones (Zones Urbaines Sensibles, ZUS), as they are euphemistically called. A complete list of the ZUS can be found on a French government website, complete with satellite maps and precise street demarcations. An estimated 5 million Muslims live in the ZUS, parts of France over which the French state has lost control.

Muslim immigrants are taking control of other parts of France too. In Paris and other French cities with high Muslim populations, such as Lyons, Marseilles and Toulouse, thousands of Muslims are closing off streets and sidewalks (and by extension, are closing down local businesses and trapping non-Muslim residents in their homes and offices) to accommodate overflowing crowds for Friday prayers. Some mosques have also begun broadcasting sermons and chants of "Allahu Akbar" via loudspeakers into the streets.

The weekly spectacles, which have been documented by dozens of videos posted on Youtube.com (here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here), and which have been denounced as an "occupation without tanks or soldiers," have provoked anger and disbelief. But despite many public complaints, local authorities have declined to intervene because they are afraid of sparking riots.

*In the Belgian capital of Brussels (which is 20% Muslim), several immigrant neighborhoods have become "no-go" zones for police officers, who frequently are pelted with rocks by Muslim youth. In the Kuregem district of Brussels, which often resembles an urban war zone, police are forced to patrol the area with two police cars: one car to carry out the patrols and another car to prevent the first car from being attacked. In the Molenbeek district of Brussels, police have been ordered not to drink coffee or eat a sandwich in public during the Islamic month of Ramadan.*

In Germany, Chief Police Commissioner Bernhard Witthaut, in an August 1 interview with the newspaper Der Westen, revealed that Muslim immigrants are imposing "no-go" zones in cities across Germany at an alarming rate.

The interviewer asked Witthaut: "Are there urban areas &#8211; for example in the Ruhr &#8211; districts and housing blocks that are "no-go areas," meaning that they can no longer be secured by the police?" Witthaut replied: "Every police commissioner and interior minister will deny it. But of course we know where we can go with the police car and where, even initially, only with the personnel carrier. The reason is that our colleagues can no longer feel safe there in twos, and have to fear becoming the victim of a crime themselves. We know that these areas exist. Even worse: in these areas crimes no longer result in charges. They are left 'to themselves.' Only in the worst cases do we in the police learn anything about it. The power of the state is completely out of the picture."

In Italy, Muslims have been commandeering the Piazza Venezia in Rome for public prayers. In Bologna, Muslims repeatedly have threatened to bomb the San Petronio cathedral because it contains a 600-year-old fresco inspired by Dante's Inferno which depicts Mohammed being tormented in hell.

In the Netherlands, a Dutch court ordered the government to release to the public a politically incorrect list of 40 "no-go" zones in Holland. The top five Muslim problem neighborhoods are in Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Utrecht. The Kolenkit area in Amsterdam is the number one Muslim "problem district" in the country. The next three districts are in Rotterdam &#8211; Pendrecht, het Oude Noorden and Bloemhof. The Ondiep district in Utrecht is in the fifth position, followed by Rivierenwijk (Deventer), Spangen (Rotterdam), Oude Westen (Rotterdam), Heechterp/ Schieringen (Leeuwarden) and Noord-Oost (Maastricht).

*In Sweden, which has some of the most liberal immigration laws in Europe, large swaths of the southern city of Malmö &#8211; which is more than 25% Muslim &#8211; are "no-go" zones for non-Muslims. Fire and emergency workers, for example, refuse to enter Malmö's mostly Muslim Rosengaard district without police escorts. The male unemployment rate in Rosengaard is estimated to be above 80%. When fire fighters attempted to put out a fire at Malmö's main mosque, they were attacked by stone throwers.*

*In the Swedish city of Gothenburg, Muslim youth have been hurling petrol bombs at police cars. In the city's Angered district, where more than 15 police cars have been destroyed, teenagers have also been pointing green lasers at the eyes of police officers, some of whom have been temporarily blinded.*

In Gothenburg's Backa district, youth have been throwing stones at patrolling officers. *Gothenburg police have also been struggling to deal with the problem of Muslim teenagers burning cars and attacking emergency services in several areas of the city. (typical civilized human behavior)*

According to the Malmö-based Imam Adly Abu Hajar: "Sweden is the best Islamic state."

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## Zabaniyah

^^^That's got to be a joke right?


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## Desert Fox

*Long sentences for immigrant brothers who revelled in power of using and abusing young White girls*


Two brothers who treated young white girls as sexual commodities to be bought and sold as they pleased were given long jail sentences yesterday by a judge who said they set out to use and abuse vulnerable children.

Ahdel and Mubarek Ali targeted, groomed and then pimped their victims to immigrant workers, who queued to have sex with under-age girls in the back rooms of restaurants and takeaway food outlets.

Troubled children seeking affection and excitement in Telford, Shropshire, were lured into a world of alcohol, cigarettes, car rides and cannabis. Each girl was treated with brute contempt.

After a seven-week trial, the brothers were found guilty of numerous offences against four girls aged from 13 to 17, including rape, sexual activity with a child, inciting and controlling child prostitution and trafficking children for sexual exploitation.

Judge Patrick Thomas, QC, passing sentence at Worcester Crown Court, said that they sought out children already gravely damaged by their experience of life.

Any decent adult, finding himself with a hurt child, would protect and comfort that child. You chose to use and abuse them.

The judge said they sold two of the girls to friends or acquaintances of yours, for sexual purposes. I have no doubt that part of your motive went beyond profit . . . and involved sheer, gratuitous pleasure in the power you exercised over these unhappy girls.

For you, it was fun; for them, it was degradation.

The trial jury heard that one 16-year-old was taken to Indian restaurants and chip shops to be abused by up to four men at a time.

At one restaurant, she and a friend were told to climb through a back window because the men did not want to be seen with white girls. The Ali brothers, both married and of Pakistani heritage, described their victims as worthless whores, slags and sluts.

A younger girl, 13, thought she was in love with Ahdel Ali, 25. He was a fast-food delivery driver who raped her in a car the first time they had sex.

She had told Stafford Crown Court during the trial in the summer: I was just lonely. I wanted that extra bit of loving, someone that cares about me, and Eddie [Ahdel Alis nickname] was like happiness for me. I was making a fool of myself because I was being used for sex.

Deborah Gould, for the prosecution, said the Alis variously sexually abused, raped, trafficked, prostituted or tried to prostitute girls from 2008 to 2010. The parents of one girl grew so concerned about her behaviour that they pleaded in vain for help from her school, the police, social services and the NHS.

Her mother said that as their daughter grew increasingly angry, unhappy and withdrawn, her husband went to all sorts of agencies trying to get help.
They also gave the police a list of the names and numbers of men who regularly contacted their daughter by phone during the day and at night.

The Alis were not arrested until December 2009, some time after the girls parents first raised concerns with child welfare professionals.

Ahdel Ali was convicted of rape, 11 counts of sexual activity with a child, three charges of controlling child prostitution and one count each of inciting child prostitution, inciting a child to engage in sexual activity and meeting a child after sexual grooming. He was jailed for 18 years.

His brother, 29, was found guilty of four counts of controlling child prostitution, two of trafficking a child within the UK for sexual exploitation and one of causing child prostitution. He received a 14-year sentence.

Each was made the subject of a lifelong sexual offences prevention order. They will also serve an extended period of eight years on licence after their release from prison.




*Muslims/Asians gang rape British girls with impunity because police are afraid of being called racist*

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## cyphercide

Zabaniya said:


> I have to admit, the Nazi uniform was so bada$$, that not a single military today can match that level of bada$$ery




The uniforms were designed with inputs from Hugo Boss. It always pays to keep a designer in the mix of things.


@ Mr. Fox: Unsure on where you are going with this thread. Are you trying to say the rabid Far Right in Europe do have a point when they assault immigrants?

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## Desert Fox

*
Racial Gangrape of White women: Another Diversity Disaster*


By Sam Francis on August 9, 2001 at 1:00am

No doubt because of the influence of xenophobia and nativism in this country, America has not yet had an opportunity to welcome a new sport that the glorious multiracial diversity of the new millennium has already created. But in more cosmopolitan centers like Paris and Australia, the game is blossoming. It consists in the ritual gang rape of white women by non-white immigrants.

*Back in April, 11 young black males went on trial in Paris for the gang rape of a 14-year-old white girl seven years ago. Rapes happen all the time, of course, but this one was unusually notable. It turned out to be a ritual for initiation into a gang. (VDARE note: The Guardian story on this case refers to the rapists as "French youths". See Peter Brimelow's review of Paved with Good Intentions for a discussion of this media phenomenon.)
*
*The ritual is known as a "tournante," meaning "Take your turn," and it consists of a black male becoming "friendly with" (seducing) a white female, preferably a teenager. Once they've become chums, the male lures the girl to a location where his buddies in the gang "take their turns" with her. In the case on trial in Paris, it was no fewer than 14 buddies. Unlike many victims of such fun, this young lady lodged a complaint with the police. As a result, she was gangraped a second time&#8212;this time, allegedly, by the 11 who went on trial in April.*

The incident is not isolated. *Police investigations of similar rapes were underway in three other French cities, and one French magistrate says the game has been going on since at least the 1980s.* *"Their technique was to pick up a young girl&#8212;a white girl&#8212;and once she had become the girlfriend of one of the members, he would allow his mates to make use of her," *magistrate Sylvie Lotteau told the press last spring. (VDARE: Click here to read it in the French language. Computer translation here.)

But France isn't the only nation to experience the pleasures of diversity. Reports from Australia reveal that racially motivated rapes of white women are catching on there as well.

The Australian Sun-Herald reports that police data show that some 70 racially motivated rapes of young white girls, one as young as 13, by Middle Eastern immigrants have taken place in the last two years. "Fifteen youths and men have so far been charged with more than 300 offenses relating to matters since mid-2000 alone. They are all of Middle Eastern extraction. None of those involved is presently before the courts. Their alleged victims have all been Caucasian, aged between 13 and 18."

Unlike the French white rape sport, those in Australia don't seem to be part of a gang initiation, but they are nonetheless clearly racially driven. "Before being brutalized," the Australian paper reports, "other victims have reportedly been questioned about their Australian heritage or forced to endure taunts about their attackers' prowess." But, like the rapes in France, those in Australia follow a similar pattern in which one non-white male becomes intimate with a white girl, whom he then delivers to his friends for sexual violation, beating and humiliation.

As I remarked, these particular sports, rather like soccer a few years ago, have just not caught on in the United States&#8212;at least not yet. But a recent report from Sacramento suggests that times are changing. There four men who are immigrants from Fiji are facing trial for kidnapping and rape as part of a gang initiation, and they are part of a group of 11 suspects facing similar charges of kidnapping and raping at least nine women, most of them prostitutes. There's no word in the Sacramento Bee story that reported these facts as to the race of the victims&#8212;no doubt because race just isn't important, you know. (VDARE note: The Sacramento Bee did a year-long project on rape in the Sacramento area. Both their breakdown on the details of Sacramento area rapes, and their "profile of a rapist" avoid any mention of race, culture, or citizenship. They do use the word macho, but with reference to Americans.)

And that of course is the whole point, isn't it? In the glorious diversity of the new millennium the brutal truth is that race is important&#8212;so important that non-whites who know this truth will commit rape against white women because of it. Importing millions of non-whites into what for centuries have been majority white countries doesn't diminish the importance of race; it increases it.

Because American and some other Western governments refuse to protect their own citizens, rape, like other violent crimes, is no longer uncommon. What is uncommon&#8212;so far&#8212;is for rape to be openly committed for racial reasons, and the diversity mania and its supportive ideologies have utterly destroyed the capacity of white Westerners to understand this. Human beings aren't really motivated by racial loyalties and racial hatreds, are they? Human beings are just interested in getting better jobs and making more money.

Racial rape is only the latest contribution of multiracialist diversity to the growth of Western civilization and its narrow-minded ethic and world-view. Just imagine what other contributions multiracialism will make possible once whites cease to be a majority in their own countries and the immigrants who are now on trial are able to take control.

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## p(-)0ENiX

Immigration issues exist in Saudi Arabia as well. In the past many people came here on the Umrah visa & managed to overstay their visit. Those people are generally deported as soon as they are discovered. Of course such incidents have reduced here these days due to stricter regulations, & the fact that the pilgrim's passport is kept by the agency organizing the pilgrimage. Jobs for the locals were a growing concern here too, & this concern was dealt with as soon as possible to avoid further dissent. The solution is called the Nitaqat System. You can read more about it here. To put it simply, this system monitors the percentage of locals employed by various private companies. Based on this evaluation, companies will end up getting classified in one of four categories. Those private companies that end up getting ranked in the two lower categories are subject to losing many valuable services from the Ministry of Labor, whereas; those ranked in the upper two categories would enjoy greater benefits & services. So why can't European countries come up with a similar solution? Is it because of some stupid interpretation of human rights? Clearly the indigenous population of a land deserves to have greater rights & privileges than immigrants.

As for barbaric uncivilized immigrants, why don't they do what Israel did? Deport them & not give a crap about what the world says or what some stupid human rights organization with some crummy statistics trying to prove minorities are innocent says? Honestly, out of all the places I have ever visited & out of everyone I have ever spoken to about this subject, no one ever liked African immigrants. In fact, I even know British Pakistanis who think African immigrants are nothing but trouble makers.  As for North Africans; besides Egypt & Morocco, there is some truth to the fact that they are kind of uncivilized. They won't dare cause trouble in their own societies just as they don't dare mess around in Saudi Arabia or other G.C.C countries, but in Europe; freedom goes through their heads. The solution is simple; break in to the rapists' homes, tie them up & rape their cute little Muslim Arab virgin women in front of them. After that, they should decapitate the weak & enslave anyone strong enough to do manual labor.  That is the best revenge, anyone that assaults your women should be destroyed. I understand the media might start crying about Islamophobia, the reactions on this forum would be incredibly hilarious too. Pakistanis might grow their ugly beards longer than usual while chanting "death to the Western world" & burning down public property in their own land. After that, they are probably going to yell some crap about the unity of the Muslim Ummah & their foolish desires for some crappy caliphate. 

Why on Earth does the law enforcement care about accusations of racism? I was honestly surprised by that. If members of a certain race are involved in a specific crime more than members of other races, why is it an issue if the police is more cautious of that race? A degree of racial profiling is pretty much natural is law enforcement agencies all over the world. In fact, it's simply a part of human nature. If an ethnicity is known for committing crimes, people should be ready to guard themselves against any potential attacker. Or does society expect people to foolishly reject all stereotypes & generalizations & risk getting robbed or assaulted? That's simply ridiculous. Furthermore; why is any indigenous European afraid of being called a racist for desiring to protect his or her country's racial, religious, cultural, & linguistic identity? It is their right to do so on their own damn land. Middle Easterners preserve their heritage in their own countries & no one calls them racist for doing so because there is nothing racist about it at all. In fact, I don't think anyone here even cares about being called a racist. People here would probably roll on the floor & laugh at such a stupid accusation.  I know some of the stuff I said sounded harsh or too cruel, & I guess I was a bit angry after reading these articles, but I stand by my words.

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## Enemy

Desert Fox said:


> Keep in mind that Britain and France (the "righteous" allied "liberators") declared war on Nazi Germany for invading Poland, yet these same Britain and France remained silent when Bolshevik Russia made an attempt to invade Poland in 1920-1921, this too 13 years before Hitler came to power in Germany.
> 
> Also, if i'm not wrong Poles are also Slavic people (Western Slavic), yet Polish women were fair game for Red army soldiers and Polish men were slave labor ripe for the Gulags after the Soviets annexed Poland.
> 
> I'm glad you brought up the Katyn Forrest Massacre, here is a interesting story about what really happened and who was responsible, even though for decades the Germans were blamed.



Chinese Dragon in his post quoted the German opinion that had once perceived Russians as dangerous to society. Actually, that perception was not incorrect once you see what they did in Germany. 

'They raped every German female from eight to 80' | Books | The Guardian

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## anon45

Enemy said:


> Chinese Dragon in his post quoted the German opinion that had once perceived Russians as dangerous to society. Actually, that perception was not incorrect once you see what they did in Germany.
> 
> 'They raped every German female from eight to 80' | Books | The Guardian



No love was lost between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia.... the war on that front was truly unhuman, uncivilized (if there can be a 'civilized war') and just flat out a battle of extermination compared to the Western front.

I won't say it was right or anything, it obviously wasn't and was par for the course for the whole front, but in their view they probably took their pound of flesh...


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## anon45

Looks like Putin is taking notes from France

The Associated Press: Putin opposes wearing headscarves at schools


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## Desert Fox

*South Asians of Pakistani Origin target underage White girls for sex*

*
In the UK there&#8217;s a terrible problem of South Asian&#8217;s of Pakistani origin targeting underage female white children for sex.* Particularly children in the care system where they are most vulnerable.

The problem has been reported a few times but it gets silenced. But from the reports that have emerged, and the cases that have come to court, the most shocking aspect of this is not just about the racial dimension, but the fact that these children get passed around from man to man&#8212;not in the way a pedophile network might do this, where the pedophiles are all social outsiders who find eachother to share in their perversion. *No&#8230;.these Pakistani gangs pass these children through their *family* networks. Cousins, uncles, fathers, brothers, friends of the family.*

From the perspective of inter-group attitudes, this makes it incalculably worse than ordinary pedophillia. *Passing white children around for sex within a family and friends structure means that the concept of treating our children like meat is culturally normal and mainstream for them.* They are pedophiles to our children but not their own children. They are pedophiles that treat our children like meat, and they don&#8217;t even see it as pedophilla because our children aren&#8217;t even qualified as children in their eyes.

The news media and politicians and courts won&#8217;t call it pedophillia and won&#8217;t talk about the awful implications that follow from a people who will do this to us and not even be ashamed of it within their own families and friends. They don&#8217;t call it pedophilia because it is so widespread and so roped into their mainstream, that they don&#8217;t want to ostracise the people responsible.

*Our news media and our politicians are putting concerns for those pedophile criminals that treat our children like meat, actually ahead of children. It chokes me.*



*&#8220;&#8216;No one wants to stand up and say that Pakistani guys in some parts of the country are recruiting young white girls and passing them around their relatives for sex, but we need to stop being worried about the racial complication.&#8217;&#8221;*

Then in the next paragraph a confirmation of the fact our own media and police and politicians are avoiding calling these people pedophiles. Despite the fact the girls are underage, deliberately targeted, and the subject to the worst form of pedophilia which is to be passed around like meat.

&#8220;The offenders were not viewed as paedophiles but had picked the girls &#8216;because of their malleability&#8217;.&#8221;

*I&#8217;m sorry, but if some guy views child pornography he&#8217;ll go to prison and be stigmatized for the rest of his life. But if a gang of Asian men go to a children&#8217;s home and rope children into drink and drugs before subjecfting them to abuse that will probably destroy their lives, this is not pedophilia according to the media. These men should be spared that stigma.
*
Here&#8217;s a BBC documentary (apparently available only in the U.K.) that came out a few days ago on the matter.


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## Desert Fox

*@ Aeronaut*

Why were two of my posts deleted in this thread? I posted articles discussing a legitimate issue which is among many that has triggered the rise of Pan European Far Right Nationalism. I posted those articles just so other members here can understand why Europeans are sick of immigrants pouring into their countries, raping and molesting their women and children, implementing no go zones and shariah controlled zones, as well as wrecking havoc at will while leaching off the European tax money.

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## Desert Fox

*The legacy of UK&#8217;s Asian/Pakistani Muslim predators* 







ROCHDALE, England &#8211; She was lonely in the way only an adolescent girl can be: No friends, no boyfriend, not much of a relationship with her parents. *So she felt special when a man decades older paid attention to her, bought her trinkets, gave her free booze.
*
*Then he took her to a dingy room above a kebab shop and said she had to give something back in return. His demands grew: Not just sex with him, but with his friends. It went on for years, until police charged nine men with running a sex ring with underage girls.*

The story of Girl A, as she became known in court, *is tragic by any measure, but it has also become explosive. Because there is no getting around it: The girls are white, and the men who used them as sex toys are Asian Muslims, mostly Pakistanis raised in Britain. And it's not just Rochdale -- roughly a dozen other cases of Asian Muslim men accused of grooming young white girls for sex are slowly moving to trial across northern England, involving up to several hundred girls in all.*

In today's Britain, which prides itself on being a tolerant and integrated society, *the case has stripped away the skin to expose the racial sores festering beneath.* It is also feeding an already raw anger against the country's Asian Muslim minority, in a movement led by far right groups at a time when the economy is stalled.

*"You can't get away from the race element,"* says prosecutor Nazir Afzal, a British Muslim with family roots in Pakistan who ended several years of official indifference to the girls' plight and finally brought the perpetrators to trial. "It's the elephant in the room."

_______

From a distance, Rochdale looks like a picture-perfect English city, with the 800-year-old Parish Church of St. Chad perched high above the streets, and the Victorian Gothic Town Hall just below, its clock tower resembling the one that houses London's Big Ben.

Up close the flaws become clear. Like missing teeth in an otherwise sparkling smile, a fair number of downtown shops are boarded up, or have been turned into pawn shops or dueling "pound shops" where almost all items cost 1 pound ($1.60) or less.

*The Pakistani community started to grow half a century ago, when the town's cottons mills were flourishing. The newcomers, most of them from poor rural villages, were drawn by the promise of steady jobs and a chance to educate their children in English schools.*

A number of mosques became part of the skyline, particularly the showcase Golden Mosque, winner of several design awards. Today, Muslim men wearing beards and decorated caps and women in black robes and veils are a constant presence on the downtown streets.

Nearly 1 million Pakistanis live in England &#8212; far more than in any other European country &#8212; with about 25,000 settled in the greater Manchester area that includes Rochdale. The government's equality commission reports that more than half of the Pakistanis in Britain live in poverty, far more than the general population, with just under 75 percent having no formal savings.

They face hard times now. The closed shops are signs of a double-dip recession that has hit northern England harder than the more affluent south, which includes London, with its financial district and well-to-do suburbs.

The mills have long since closed; the local newspaper trumpets gloom and doom: A tripling in the number of homeless, a sharp rise in youth unemployment, more people seeking housing benefits.

Even the local McDonald's, long a fixture in the town center, has moved out.

It was in this environment that Girl A lost control one summer night in 2008.

After drinking heavily, the 15-year-old went to the kebab shop in nearby Heywood where she had first met her "boyfriend." She started screaming and busting the place up. When police were called, she told them she had been raped -- repeatedly -- and offered up her semen-stained underwear as proof.

Greater Manchester Police detectives concluded the girl, who was below the age of consent, was telling the truth, but Crown Prosecution Service lawyers recommended against pressing criminal charges, reasoning that the jury might not believe a troubled, hard-drinking, sexually active young girl. The case was quietly dropped after an 11-month inquiry.
*
The abuse intensified. The ring of predators grew; the circle of victims widened. Eventually there would be at least 47 victims or witnesses.*

*The girl was driven around at night, forced to have sex with more and more men, sometimes up to five a day, in cars or restaurant backrooms or grubby apartments. The men threatened her if she complained. There seemed to be no escape.*

She was trapped in a secret world of sex acts that took place late at night when most people in Rochdale were safely tucked away in their homes.

_________

The Rochdale men do not fit the classic profile for sex offenders in Britain -- the majority of pedophilia crimes are committed by white men who target boys and girls via the Internet. *However, there is a consensus among prosecutors, police, social workers and leading national politicians that "street grooming," which happened in Rochdale, is largely dominated by Asian men.*
*
Ella Cockbain, a University College of London crime science specialist, says research shows that mostly Asian men make up the big groups of offenders who work together. She chooses her words carefully because the sample size is small and the topic sensitive.*

"There are definite patterns emerging that would be foolish to ignore," she says.

*Mohammed Shafiq, a British Pakistani who directs the Ramadhan Foundation in Rochdale, has angered some in his own community by suggesting that police at first did not pursue the case aggressively for fear of appearing racist because of an obsession "with the doctrine of political correctness."*

*Shafiq says that a "tiny minority" of Pakistani men feel white girls are worthless and immoral &#8212; and can be abused with impunity. (note, he said "tiny minority" out of fear of angering his fellow Pakistanis, but in reality its a good portion of Pakistanis who think in such a disgusting manner).
*
"They know if they took someone from the Asian community, it pretty quickly is going to be found out," he says. "But those white girls are available, so they think they can get away with it."

The men in the Rochdale sex ring were remarkable only in their ordinariness. They were part of British life, but on the fringes &#8212; the sort of people most Britons don't really notice when they pass them on the street.

Many were taxi drivers, accustomed to working all-night shifts with long down time between fares, and they frequented the late-night kebab takeout shops offering familiar lamb, chicken and falafel dishes. Their cab stands and the kebab shops were often the only businesses that remained open after the bars closed.

*Most of the men were first or second generation Pakistanis raised mainly in Britain. Only one had faced previous sex charges: Ringleader Shabir Ahmed, at 59 the oldest in the group, who was accused of repeatedly raping a young girl in a separate case. Ahmed, known to the girls as "Daddy," was convicted of 30 counts of rape in that case last week.*

*Some of the men had families and small businesses. The ring included Abdul Rauf, 43, who would later claim to have experience as a Muslim preacher, which local Islamic leaders dismiss as a total fabrication. A few had ongoing contacts with local politicians.*

The men were neither affluent nor dirt poor. They lived outwardly stable lives but had few obvious prospects for advancement.

They were finally brought to justice after health workers reported a large increase in the number of underage girls in the Rochdale area claiming to have suffered sexual abuse. The next year, Afzal, the new regional chief of the Crown Prosecution Service, reversed the earlier decision by prosecutors and decided to press the case in court, with Girl A at its core.

"It was a no-brainer," Afzal told the Associated Press. "She was immensely credible. And the police now had evidence of a wide network."

Eleven men were charged with offenses ranging from rape to conspiracy, and police suspect more were involved. The men had such psychological power over the girls that even during the trial, one girl talked of a defendant as her boyfriend.

Parliament has launched an inquiry based in part on reports that the abuse is far more widespread than originally thought. Afzal said his office is handling roughly a dozen other similar cases, *including one that involves 13 men accused of operating a sex ring with 24 girls.*

*Afzal says that as a Muslim he is sickened by the crimes.*

*"Rape and alcohol and abuse are not part of Islam," he says. "Just because they have a beard and go to the mosque doesn't make them good Muslims."*

_____________

*As the Rochdale trial reached court, the issue of race and religion burst into the open.*

*One far-right protester carried a sign making reference to the meat favored by many observant Muslims because it meets strict religious guidelines. "Our girls are not Halal meat," the sign read.*

Inside the court, Ahmed, a key defendant, fought back hard. He accused the all-white jury of racism. He accused one girl of thinking whites were superior, and denigrated them all as greedy money seekers. And he accused white society of neglecting its girls and tolerating, even encouraging, bad behavior.

"You white people train them in sex and drinking, so when they come to us they are fully trained," he said.

The jury found nine men guilty and set two free. *Judge Gerald Clifton articulated what many felt but were reluctant to say out loud when he accused the men of treating white girls as worthless because "they were not of your community or religion." Then he sentenced them to a total of 77 years in prison.*

The May verdict further polarized Rochdale. Pakistanis were horrified at the stigma on their community and enraged that the men claimed to be Muslim.

"They are playing the Muslim card, pretending they are good Muslims, but they are not," says Irfan Chishti, who runs an educational program at one of the town's mosques. "This was a great sin under Islam. If Sharia law was in place, the punishment would be very severe."

Even while he and other leaders of the Rochdale Council of Mosques were discussing the case, about 40 protesters from the far-right British National Party held an unauthorized rally on the nearby Town Hall steps. The far right has seized on the case, claiming that some British Pakistanis follow a code they believe is practiced in parts of the Islamic world that allows men to have sex with girls under 16.

Louis Kushnick, founder of the race relations resource center at the University of Manchester, said it has become convenient for white residents &#8212; including those beyond the far-right movement &#8212; to blame Muslims for the sex crimes.

"You hear people talking about this, and it becomes tied to Islam," he says. "People say they are Muslim men, they see women as inferior, they have contempt for white women, so it has nothing to do with the rest of us."

That view overlooks all the problems that left the girls vulnerable in the first place, he says, citing a deficient school system and a government-backed child care regime riddled with neglect and abuse. And he says the prolonged economic downturn has intensified resentments, with whites and Asians competing for the same "crap" jobs.

"Blaming the Muslims lets us avoid addressing these questions," he says. "Once we blame 'The Other,' we think we have an explanation that makes sense."

Many in Rochdale are wary about discussing the case. Graduate student Heather Eyre, 25, says the trial has badly divided the city.

"It shouldn't have mattered that they are Pakistani," she says of the abusers. "But it's stirred up hatred. Some say they should be deported, and some parts of the Asian community say the jury was racist. Then the far-right groups came in...this case has been good for the English Defense League."

__________

The girl who first told police about the abuse, now a young woman of 19, has moved out of the area. In a brief pooled interview before she withdrew from the public eye, she refused to call the crimes against her racial in nature, but said she was shocked Muslims would commit such acts.

She said that in 2008, when the grooming began, there was no awareness of this type of crime involving Asian men and white girls.

"Now it's going on everywhere," she said. "You think of Muslim men as religious and family-minded and just nice people. You don't think...I don't know...You just don't think they'd do things like that."

When the abuse started, she said, she felt anger and shame, then became resigned and, finally, numb.

"After a while it had been going for so long and so many different men that it became like I didn't feel anything towards it anymore," she said. "It just weren't me anymore. It just became something I had to do....Once you're in it, you're trapped. I just think what they did to me was evil."

Read more: UK underage sex ring sparks racial tensions | Fox News

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## Desert Fox

p(-)0ENiX said:


> Immigration issues exist in Saudi Arabia as well. In the past many people came here on the Umrah visa & managed to overstay their visit. Those people are generally deported as soon as they are discovered. Of course such incidents have reduced here these days due to stricter regulations, & the fact that the pilgrim's passport is kept by the agency organizing the pilgrimage. Jobs for the locals were a growing concern here too, & this concern was dealt with as soon as possible to avoid further dissent. The solution is called the Nitaqat System. You can read more about it here. To put it simply, this system monitors the percentage of locals employed by various private companies. Based on this evaluation, companies will end up getting classified in one of four categories. Those private companies that end up getting ranked in the two lower categories are subject to losing many valuable services from the Ministry of Labor, whereas; those ranked in the upper two categories would enjoy greater benefits & services. So why can't European countries come up with a similar solution? Is it because of some stupid interpretation of human rights? Clearly the indigenous population of a land deserves to have greater rights & privileges than immigrants.
> 
> As for barbaric uncivilized immigrants, why don't they do what Israel did? Deport them & not give a crap about what the world says or what some stupid human rights organization with some crummy statistics trying to prove minorities are innocent says? Honestly, out of all the places I have ever visited & out of everyone I have ever spoken to about this subject, no one ever liked African immigrants. In fact, I even know British Pakistanis who think African immigrants are nothing but trouble makers.  As for North Africans; besides Egypt & Morocco, there is some truth to the fact that they are kind of uncivilized. They won't dare cause trouble in their own societies just as they don't dare mess around in Saudi Arabia or other G.C.C countries, but in Europe; freedom goes through their heads. The solution is simple; break in to the rapists' homes, tie them up & rape their cute little Muslim Arab virgin women in front of them. After that, they should decapitate the weak & enslave anyone strong enough to do manual labor.  That is the best revenge, anyone that assaults your women should be destroyed. I understand the media might start crying about Islamophobia, the reactions on this forum would be incredibly hilarious too. Pakistanis might grow their ugly beards longer than usual while chanting "death to the Western world" & burning down public property in their own land. After that, they are probably going to yell some crap about the unity of the Muslim Ummah & their foolish desires for some crappy caliphate.
> 
> Why on Earth does the law enforcement care about accusations of racism? I was honestly surprised by that. If members of a certain race are involved in a specific crime more than members of other races, why is it an issue if the police is more cautious of that race? A degree of racial profiling is pretty much natural is law enforcement agencies all over the world. In fact, it's simply a part of human nature. If an ethnicity is known for committing crimes, people should be ready to guard themselves against any potential attacker. Or does society expect people to foolishly reject all stereotypes & generalizations & risk getting robbed or assaulted? That's simply ridiculous. Furthermore; why is any indigenous European afraid of being called a racist for desiring to protect his or her country's racial, religious, cultural, & linguistic identity? It is their right to do so on their own damn land. Middle Easterners preserve their heritage in their own countries & no one calls them racist for doing so because there is nothing racist about it at all. In fact, I don't think anyone here even cares about being called a racist. People here would probably roll on the floor & laugh at such a stupid accusation.  I know some of the stuff I said sounded harsh or too cruel, & I guess I was a bit angry after reading these articles, but I stand by my words.



Great post bro, you nailed it to the point. The problem in the West is "political correctness", in other words a sense of collective guilt, or rather punishment, has been put upon /instilled within the White population of these countries. If a black/non-white rapes, abuses, or even murders a White person the crime is not labeled a "racist crime", its just ignored in most cases. However in very few cases when a White person does commit crime against non-Whites, the Zionist controlled media outlets jump the gun and broadcast non-stop how it was a "racially motivated crime" and how the White people are evil racist people, etc...

This policy of "multiculturalism" is being forced down the throats of the White people. They are intentionally being made minorities in their own countries and thus wiped out.

This video will give you a hint as to who is playing an active role in this:






If White people don't accept non-White in their countries= They are Racist intolerant people

Meanwhile Arabs and Israelis treat migrants in their country like sh!t in most cases. But that's completely alright.

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## Desert Fox

*Israel to deport 60,000 African immigrants from its soil*

*Israel to save 'Jewish Character of the State' by mass deporting African immigrants*

*African migrants in Israel face angry backlash, deportations*
*
Israeli Kristallnacht: Africans attacked in Tel Aviv anti-migrant demo (PHOTOS)*

*Kristallnacht in Israel: Thugs Attack African Immigrants*

*Israelis violently attack African immigrants in Anti-immigrant rally*



If a European nation were to do this, it'd be labeled a "Apartheid" racist state. However since Zionists control the major banks, corporations, and media thus this incident of israel's racial violence and discrimination against black Africans is hidden from the mainstream media and not brought up in the UN, and instead its overlooked.

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## PlanetWarrior

^^^ Ok, but Israel's wrong doesn't justify Europe's rabid right. Most of the posts in this thread are just plain Islamophobic, anti-Asian or Pakistani articles which in all probability were downloaded from one of those freak right wing sites on the internet.


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## Desert Fox

*Immigrant Rape Wave in Sweden and rest of Europe*






By Fjordman

*Swedish girls Malin and Amanda were on their way to a party on New Year&#8217;s Eve when they were assaulted, raped and beaten half to death by four Somali immigrants.* Sweden&#8217;s largest newspaper has presented the perpetrators as &#8220;two men from Sweden, one from Finland and one from Somalia&#8221;, a testimony as to how bad the informal censorship is in stories related to immigration in Sweden. Similar incidents are reported with shocking frequency, to the point where some observers fear that law and order is completely breaking down in the country. The number of rape charges in Sweden has tripled in just above twenty years. Rape cases involving children under the age of 15 are six - 6 - times as common today as they were a generation ago. Most other kinds of violent crime have rapidly increased, too. Instability is spreading to most urban and suburban areas.

According to a new study from the Crime Prevention Council, Brå,* it is four times more likely that a known rapist is born abroad, compared to persons born in Sweden. Resident aliens from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominate the group of rape suspects.* According to these statistics, almost half of all perpetrators are immigrants. In Norway and Denmark, we know that non-Western immigrants, which frequently means Muslims, are grossly overrepresented on rape statistics. In Oslo, Norway, immigrants were involved in two out of three rape charges in 2001. The numbers in Denmark were the same, and even higher in the city of Copenhagen with three out of four rape charges. Sweden has a larger immigrant, including Muslim, population than any other country in northern Europe. The numbers there are likely to be at least as bad as with its Scandinavian neighbors. The actual number is thus probably even higher than what the authorities are reporting now, as it doesn&#8217;t include second generation immigrants. Lawyer Ann Christine Hjelm, who has investigated violent crimes in Svea high court, found that 85 per cent of the convicted rapists were born on foreign soil or by foreign parents.

A group of Swedish teenage girls has designed a belt that requires two hands to remove and which they hope will deter would-be rapists. &#8220;It&#8217;s like a reverse chastity belt,&#8221; one of the creators, 19-year-old Nadja Björk, told AFP, meaning that the wearer is in control, instead of being controlled. Björk and one of her partners now plan to start a business to mass produce the belts and are currently in negotiations with potential partners. &#8220;But I&#8217;m not doing this for the money,&#8221; she said. &#8220;I&#8217;m really passionate about stopping rape. I think it&#8217;s terrible.&#8221; In an online readers&#8217; poll from the newspaper Aftonbladet, 82% of the women expressed fear to go outside after dark. There are reports of rapes happening in broad daylight. 30 guests in a Swedish public bath watched as 17 girl was raped recently, and nobody did anything. The girl was first approached by 16-year-old boy. He and his friends followed her as she walked away to the grotto, and inside the grotto he got her blocked in the corner, ripped off her bikini and raped her, while his friend held her firm.

There are even reports of Swedish girls being attacked and cut with knives on the dance floor. A 21-year-old man who came to Sweden a couple of years ago admits that he has a low opinion of Swedish females &#8211;or &#8220;******&#8221; as he calls them. He is now prosecuted, suspecteded of cutting eight girls in several pubs. He is also charged with raping a girl at a private party, and with sexually harassing another girl in the apartment. Several witnesses claim that the 21 year old has said that he hates Swedish women.

Some Muslim immigrants admit their bias quite openly. *An Islamic Mufti in Copenhagen sparked a political outcry after publicly declaring that women who refuse to wear headscarves are &#8220;asking for rape.&#8221; *Apparently, he&#8217;s not the only one thinking this way. *&#8220;It is not as wrong raping a Swedish girl as raping an Arab girl,&#8221; says Hamid*. *&#8220;The Swedish girl gets a lot of help afterwards, and she had probably fucked before, anyway. But the Arab girl will get problems with her family. For her, being raped is a source of shame. It is important that she retains her virginity until she marries.&#8221;* It was no coincidence that it was a Swedish girl that was gang raped in Rissne &#8211; this becomes obvious from the discussion with Ali, Hamid, Abdallah and Richard. All four have disparaging views on Swedish girls, and think this attitude is common among young men with immigrant background. *&#8220;It is far too easy to get a Swedish *****&#8230;&#8230; girl, I mean;&#8221; says Hamid, and laughs over his own choice of words. &#8220;Many immigrant boys have Swedish girlfriends when they are teenagers. But when they get married, they get a proper woman from their own culture who has never been with a boy. That&#8217;s what I am going to do. I don&#8217;t have too much respect for Swedish girls. I guess you can say they get fucked to pieces.&#8221;
*

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## Desert Fox

*Anger at austerity, immigration feeds far right's rise in Europe*






(CNN) -- Two European elections, in France and Greece, have thrust the radical fringe into the spotlight.

In Greece, voters disillusioned by a brutal austerity program pushed through by the two mainstream parties have turned instead to parties on the far left and far right.

As a result, a leftist coalition opposed to austerity is seeking to form a government, and Golden Dawn -- an ultranationalist party linked to street violence and neo-Nazism -- stands to claim around 20 seats in the new parliament.

France saw a swing to the left in Sunday's runoff, with Socialist François Hollande ousting center-right incumbent Nicolas Sarkozy from the Élysée Palace.

But the strong showing by far-right National Front leader Marine Le Pen in the first round of the presidential election undoubtedly played into campaigning, with both candidates reaching out to the 6.5 million voters who backed her. Each pledged to crack down on illegal immigration, though Sarkozy went further in promising to cut the number of legal migrants by half in the next five years.

Two very different outcomes, but with a common thread: the efforts of extremist parties to win support by plugging into popular discontent over the financial crisis, against the backdrop of a wider social unease and anti-immigrant sentiment.

Across Europe, anger at a perceived mismanagement of the economic crisis, and accompanying high unemployment, low growth and painful cuts, has seen a string of governments fall, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Finland, Romania and Italy are among them as well as the Netherlands, where the refusal of the far-right Freedom Party to back austerity measures led the government to collapse last month.

The current turbulence of Europe's politics may lead to more uncomfortable alliances in the future -- although such attempts can also backfire.

Keen to swing France's sizable far-right bloc behind him, Sarkozy vowed to keep an open ear to the concerns of the National Front, even as he ruled out any formal pact with the party.

"I refuse to demonize the men and women who in voting for Marine Le Pen expressed a crisis vote, a vote of anger, a vote of suffering and a vote of despair," he said on French radio. "I have to take their message into account, I have to listen to them, I have to hear them and not hold my nose."

But many critics perceived him as lurching far to the right on issues such as immigration.

Announcing his decision to back Hollande, centrist François Bayrou, who took 9% of the vote in the first round, said he could not support Sarkozy because the views he now espoused were incompatible with his party's values.

Even so, will the region's economic insecurity translate into greater gains for the far right?

Europe's far-right parties are definitely seeing a resurgence, according to Matthew Feldman, director of the Radicalism and New Media Research Group at the University of Northampton, but the trend is not universal and the austerity crisis is only one part of the picture.

He said the far-right movement has been gaining ground for years, thanks partly to efforts to revamp its previously overtly racist and fascist image.

This doesn't mean that those racist or Nazi-sympathizing elements don't still exist within different countries' far-right groups, he said, but those at the top have often learned to present a more acceptable public face.

Instead of open racial attacks, they play up a threat to national identity and criticize multiculturalism, particularly as it relates to Islam, Feldman said.

On the campaign trail, National Front leader Le Pen called for France to leave the eurozone and restore its currency, the franc, as well as criticizing its political integration into the European Union.

But her rhetoric also drew on an anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim sentiment that has deep roots in France and elsewhere. That discourse was likely also a factor in Sarkozy turning the labeling of halal meat into an election issue and his comments that there are "too many foreigners" in France.

The more research he does, Feldman said, the more it seems that "the lowest common denominator of this entire far-right narrative is that Islam is barbaric and a threat to European stability and peace."

A report by rights group Amnesty International last month highlighted the issue, saying Muslims in Europe face discrimination in education, employment and religious freedom.

Feldman draws a parallel with the anti-Semitism of the 20th century and earlier.

"We are still seeing 'Europe for the Europeans,' and that's something we could have seen 80 years ago," he said. "History doesn't give us perfect examples of replaying the past, but I think there's a lesson to take away.

"In times of uncertainty and great change, finding scapegoats has always been a populist vote winner, and the scapegoat in this century is Muslims in Europe."

Michael Minkenberg, a professor of political science at Germany's European University Viadrina in Frankfurt (Oder) who has also taught at New York, Cornell and Columbia universities, said he sees concern over immigration, law and order "and the feeling that things aren't what they used to be any more" as being at the heart of support for Europe's radical right.

Euroscepticism, as resistance to greater European political integration is known, is also on the increase, he said, and "there's this anxiety about what will happen, a growing complexity and not much reassurance from either national governments or the European Union."

Coupled with a mistrust of the political elite, this has also led to a swell of support for the far right in Austria, Belgium and Scandinavian countries, Minkenberg said, while in Hungary, the far-right Jobbik party won a significant chunk of the vote in 2010.

Despite that trend, analysts caution against drawing sweeping conclusions from the far right's gains in France and Greece.

The National Front has been well-entrenched in France's political life for decades under Jean-Marie Le Pen before his daughter Marine took charge last year, said Thomas Klau of the European Council on Foreign Relations.

As such, its achievement in taking a fifth of the votes in the first round of voting, while notable, did not indicate a sudden rise to prominence for the far right, he said.

Hollande told the daily Liberation newspaper ahead of the runoff that he saw the strong showing for the National Front as an expression of people's "social anger" rather than a firm adherence to the party's more extremist views. It revealed a discontent particularly in rural areas and among working-class voters, he said, with many feeling abandoned by the government.

Perhaps reflecting that disillusionment, 2 million French voters deliberately spoiled their ballot papers after Marine Le Pen said that was what she would do.

Nonetheless, Klau argues that a feature of recent ballots in Europe has been the readiness of voters to change their governments without turning to the political extremes, as seen in Spain's election in November.

"Voters have been single-minded across the eurozone in terms of expressing their dissatisfaction at how the crisis has been run by the government in charge, whatever their political hue," he said. "But at the same time, they have sufficient confidence in their own political system to replace their governments with the mainstream political opposition."

In Britain, local elections last week saw big losses for the coalition government of the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, blamed for unpopular austerity measures.

But there was no accompanying swing to the radical fringe, Feldman said. The far-right British National Party in fact lost all six of the seats it was defending in local councils and failed to win any new ones. The opposition center-left Labour Party was the main beneficiary of the coalition's losses.

In the Netherlands, Klau said the impact of Dutch politician Geert Wilders' decision to withdraw his Freedom Party's support for the government, triggering its collapse, would have only a temporary destabilizing effect.

The economy will be central to the election of a new government, with elections due in September, but the far right does not attract the same level of support as in France.

Wilders, who wants a referendum on the euro, preferred to exit the coalition than lose political credibility by backing the painful cuts demanded by Europe, said Kostas Gemenis at the University of Twente in the Netherlands.

Those demands from Europe are also at the heart of Greece's political turmoil as voters in the heavily indebted nation revolt against the harsh budget-cutting medicine doled out by the European Union and International Monetary Fund.

The success of Golden Dawn, with its unprecedented 7% share of the vote, is a manifestation of what could be described as economic meltdown, Feldman said.

But at the same time, he said, "7% is too much, but it's not 27% or 37%. I'm not sure now is the time to panic about the rise of the far right. Golden Dawn is not something that is replicable across Europe."

And while Golden Dawn gained strength, another far-right party, LAOS, lost its small presence in the 300-seat parliament as voters punished it for its support for Greece's austerity program, Gemenis pointed out.

Gemenis said the profile of the Golden Dawn voter -- revealed through the Choose4Greece website he jointly set up to help voters work out their political affiliation amid a welter of parties -- was typically male, aged under 50 and from a lower educational background.

Some 45% of those who said they intended to vote for Golden Dawn this time around had backed one of the two mainstream parties, PASOK and New Democracy, in 2009, while a fifth had backed LAOS, Gemenis said.

If the far-left Syriza group fails to form a workable coalition, it seems likely a new Greek election will be called next month.

But whether this will mean further gains for Golden Dawn is hard to predict, Gemenis said.

"The framing of the issue by the media might play a role, but it is impossible to say what will be the consequences of the media attacking the far right versus tacitly ignoring it," he said, referring to the approach taken by Greek media so far.

So, does the far right present a broader threat to European freedoms?

How extreme the anti-immigration debate becomes depends very much on the individual country, Minkenberg said.

Farther east, a different strand of far-right thinking dominates in countries such as Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania, he said. There, far-right groups poll around 10% but tend to be more nationalistic in tone, he said, with anti-Semitism and anti-Roma views seen as more legitimate than elsewhere in Europe.

Feldman highlights the far right's recent apparent moves to establish a pan-European cultural movement that has Islam in its sights as the biggest risk.

Far-right groups from Scandinavia, the United Kingdom, Germany and Eastern Europe gathered last month in the Danish city of Aarhus for what they said was a rally to make their governments aware of the threat of Islamic extremism.

Although it was dwarfed by a left-wing counterdemonstration, the protest was significant as an attempt by the far-right groups to create a common trajectory, he said. Less clear is how much traction their extreme views can gain.

"It's clear that a large minority across Europe isn't comfortable with these things -- demographic change and multiculturalism," Feldman said. "But what the far right offers is not something that many can accept."

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## Kompromat

Desert Fox, make sure your sources are not from Islamophobic websites spreading blind hatred against Muslims, they will be dealt with accordingly.

Thanks.


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## Desert Fox

*The German Village Where the Neo-Nazis Rule*





_A vaillage sign at the entrance to Jamel bearing the far-right slogan "Free, Social, National." Jamel is an example of the far-right_


Hitler salutes in the street and firing practice in the forest: Neo-Nazis have taken over an entire village in Germany, and authorities appear to have given up efforts to combat the problem. The place has come to symbolize the far right's growing influence in parts of the former communist east.



Horst and Birgit Lohmeyer have been working on their life's dream for six years, renovating a house in the woods near Jamel, a tiny village near Wismar in the far northeastern German state of Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania. Birgit Lohmeyer writes crime novels, her husband is a musician, and both try to pretend everything is normal here in Jamel.

ANZEIGE
It wasn't easy to find their new home. The Lohmeyers spent months driving out to the countryside every weekend, heading east from where they lived in Hamburg, but most of the houses they saw were too expensive. Then they came across the inexpensive red brick farmhouse in Jamel. Slightly run-down, but not far from the Baltic Sea, the house sits surrounded by lime and maple trees, near a lake.

The Lohmeyers knew that a notorious neo-Nazi lived nearby -- Sven Krüger, a demolition contractor and high-level member of the far-right National Democratic Party (NPD). What the Lohmeyers didn't know was that other neighbors felt terrorized by Krüger. He and his associates were in the process of buying up the entire village.

Jamel is an example of the far-right problem that has plagued Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania for years. The rural region, once part of communist East Germany, has a poor reputation in this regard -- the NPD, which glorifies the Third Reich, has been in the state parliament since 2006 and neo-Nazi crimes are part of daily life. In recent months, a series of attacks against politicians from all the democratic parties has shaken the state. Sometimes hardly a week goes by without an attack on another electoral district office, with paint bombs, right-wing graffiti and broken windows.

Norbert Nieszery, leader of the center-left Social Democratic Party (SPD) in the state parliament, calls it an "early form of terror." Nieszery's own office windows have been smashed twice. State Interior Minister Lorenz Caffier of the center-right Christian Democratic Union (CDU) says he has registered a "new level" of right-wing extremist violence. He believes the NPD is trying to raise its profile through aggressive behavior ahead of the state parliament election in September. One local mayor requested police protection after receiving repeated right-wing threats. The Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, Germany's domestic intelligence agency, has warned that the NPD is becoming increasingly influential in local municipalities and that the neo-Nazis are trying to entrench themselves in daily life.

Mounting Concern About Far-Right Influence

Nowhere have they succeeded as well as in Jamel. If the right-wing extremists left, the village would be empty. Jamel is no longer just a problem at the regional or federal state level -- even Berlin is growing concerned about the situation.

SPD member Wolfgang Thierse, vice president of Germany's federal parliament, the Bundestag, visited the village a few months ago. He spent half an hour in the Lohmeyers' living room and promised to support them in their fight against the neo-Nazis. So far, nothing has changed. Jamel has come to symbolize the fact that there are places in Germany where right-wing extremists can do virtually whatever they want.

When the Lohmeyers moved here in 2004, they started to fix up their country house and to make contact with the neighbors -- although not with the neo-Nazi Krüger. They were sure right-wing extremists wouldn't be the only people in Jamel.

Only gradually did they realize just where they had ended up. Plaster crumbled from many of the houses in the village and one roof had collapsed completely. Beer bottles, car tires and gas canisters were littered behind the bus stop. There were metal fences surrounding some properties and attack dogs strained against their chains in the front yards. No one bothered to remove the swastika scribbled on the sign at the entrance to the village.

Children Giving Hitler Salute

There were young men with shaved heads and army trousers in the village and Nazi rock music could be heard from across the fields on the weekends. Shots sounded from the woods, where the neo-Nazis practiced their shooting -- police later found bullet casings in trenches there. When the Lohmeyers walked through the village, children raised their hands in the Nazi salute.

Krüger has shaped the village. He grew up here, with a father who was known as a right-wing radical and who used to make his son salute each morning in the snow. Young Krüger was an outsider at school, an acquaintance remembers, and didn't find friends until he joined the skinhead scene. As a young man, he incited right-wing thugs to attack a campsite and spent time in pre-trial detention on suspicion of burglary. Still, for a long time, the Krügers were the only neo-Nazis in the village.

"Now," says Horst Lohmeyer, "they see Jamel as a 'nationally liberated zone'" -- a neo-Nazi term for places foreigners and those of foreign descent must fear to tread. The extremists took over the village in just a few years. They now own seven of the 10 houses and have driven out anyone who couldn't come to terms with them. They battered down doors and broke windows, slashed tires, flew the German imperial war flag and celebrated Hitler's birthday. In the 1990s, they stuck dead chickens on one family's garden fence with the warning, "We'll smoke you out."

The village emptied and Krüger encouraged his right-wing friends to buy the available houses. Few others dared to venture into Jamel anymore. Neo-Nazis greeted one couple that wanted to move there with "Piss off" -- and the couple's house burned down shortly before they planned to move in. One new property owner dared to set foot in the village only accompanied by police.

The Lohmeyers have made it their life's work not to let themselves be driven out of Jamel. Each year, they host a rock festival on a field behind their house. Governor Erwin Sellering of the SPD has been patron of the festival since 2009. Police fence in the area and guard the entrance, and in past years, things remained largely calm.

Help is Far Away

This summer, though, neo-Nazis jumped over the fence, yelling slurs and attacking concertgoers. Police stepped in and stopped the troublemakers. But police can't always protect the Lohmeyers -- the nearest station is 12 kilometers away.

Horst Lohmeyer sits in his kitchen, bent over a map, and runs his finger along the roads and through the towns -- Gressow, Neu Degtow, Grevesmühlen. It takes a quarter of an hour to reach the nearest police station. When Krüger got married this summer, the village was inundated with several hundred right-wing extremists from Germany, the Netherlands and Switzerland, including a number of high-ranking NPD politicians such as Stefan Köster, NPD party head for Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania.

Jamel has become a right-wing pilgrimage site -- they come from all over Europe to see the village where neo-Nazis call the shots. They celebrated Krüger's wedding until late in the night, with nationalist rock music and fireworks. The Lohmeyers lay awake in bed, frozen with fear.

Mayor Uwe Wandel is helpless in the face of the right-wing movement in his community. He sounds bitter when he talks about Jamel. "The police, the authorities, no one dares to intervene," he says. "The Nazis are laughing in our faces." Wandel says he has repeatedly asked the state government for help. The interior minister and a parliamentary delegation came by one time, he adds. "They stayed for 20 minutes, expressed concern -- then they left again."

No One Responsible

Jamel has become a lawless place, Wandel complains, and the authorities don't take decisive enough action against the right-wing extremists. He says Krüger is allowed to dump demolition waste and burn trash in the village with impunity. The head of the department of public order in nearby Grevesmühlen says higher-level officials at the district level need to tackle the problem. They in turn say the local authority is responsible for Jamel.

Krüger, meanwhile, has much bigger plans. He has been a member of the district council for the NPD since 2009 and has bought parts of a concrete factory in Grevesmühlen, which he uses for his NPD office and his demolition company. The company logo shows the outline of a Star of David being smashed; the slogan is, "We do the dirty work." Barbed wire encloses the factory premises and dogs bark. A sign above the entrance reads, "Better dead than a slave." Krüger prefers not to comment on the accusations against him. All he says is, "Nothing that's written about me is true. I don't stand a chance against the system."

Krüger has hired new employees in the last few months. He gets contracts from fellow members of the far-right scene, but also from local businesses. Mayor Wandel says he's appalled by how far these right-wing structures now extend. "I'm afraid of a second, third, fourth Jamel," he says.

Neo-Nazis placed a boulder at the entrance to the village. A plaque attached to the rock reads, "Village of Jamel - free, social, national." Signs next to it point the way to Hitler's birthplace ("Braunau am Inn 855 km") and to the formerly German cities of Breslau (now Wroclaw in Poland) and Königsberg (now Kaliningrad, Russia). No one has removed the rock. "We've given up on Jamel," Wandel says.

Only the Lohmeyers are left.

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## Desert Fox

mfreak said:


> Come again? Dont give me this "White genocide" bullshit. They will tell you how "muslims" and black people immigrate and have kids, *or in some cases marry white women. So these guys have a problem with people sleeping with each other*


So do the israelis:

Chinese workers in Israel sign no-sex contract



mfreak said:


> *These morons should be dragged to the street and shot like dogs, just to prove a point.* Nazism should never be allowed at whatever cost.



Then you should start by doing the above (in red) to the Israelis first since their state is actively involved in forcefully deporting African and other non-Jewish israeli immigrants.

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## Desert Fox

*Nationalism on the rise in Europe*

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## p(-)0ENiX

Desert Fox said:


> Great post bro, you nailed it to the point. The problem in the West is "political correctness", in other words a sense of collective guilt, or rather punishment, has been put upon /instilled within the White population of these countries. If a black/non-white rapes, abuses, or even murders a White person the crime is not labeled a "racist crime", its just ignored in most cases. However in very few cases when a White person does commit crime against non-Whites, the Zionist controlled media outlets jump the gun and broadcast non-stop how it was a "racially motivated crime" and how the White people are evil racist people, etc...



I never understood why they would feel guilty about pretty much anything? Slavery existed in Arabia for centuries, even after the arrival of Islam. Did you know that the slave traders that bought Prophet Joseph were Ishmaelite Arabs? Many people sugar coat slavery in the Arab world by stating that Islam gives slaves rights & other blah, blah, blah.  The fact is that there is a difference between preaching something & practicing it. The conditions of some slaves did improve vastly, but many slaves were abused even in the Arab Islamic states, denying it is pointless. 

Do you want to know what the "_shuper, awshome, & amazingly kool_" Arab physician that described the pulmonary circulation of blood called Ibn al-Nafis thought of blacks?

According to Wikipedia:



> Al-Dimashqi (Ibn al-Nafis), the Arab polymath, also described the inhabitants of Sudan (region) and the Zanj coast, among others, as being of "dim" intelligence and that:
> 
> *...the moral characteristics found in their mentality are close to the instinctive characteristics found naturally in animals.*
> 
> Andrew Reid and Paul J. Lane, African Historical Archaeologies



The source for that quote is a book mentioned in the quote itself. Anyway, after all that; no one here feels guilty at all about slavery. People need to be proud of whatever their ancestors did even if they disagree with them, that might help this diminish this feeling of guilt. The sames goes for colonialism, what exactly is wrong with getting resources out of other people's land? If the locals have a problem with it; they should fight, if not; accept their defeat & humiliation. It's their fault they couldn't defend themselves anyway. Ownership of land was different back then in comparison to the modern concept of the nation state. The conqueror owns the land, the conquered lose it. Why don't white people protest against false accusations of hate crimes? I am sure some media outlets would provide them coverage, it's better than simply staying silent. 



Desert Fox said:


> This policy of "multiculturalism" is being forced down the throats of the White people. They are intentionally being made minorities in their own countries and thus wiped out.
> 
> This video will give you a hint as to who is playing an active role in this:



Here is an unwritten rule; you should never trust anyone you ever had trouble with in the past. The fact that some Jewish families have so much influence in a land that isn't their own should be alarming to the locals. The Jews view themselves as foreigners in Europe; including those that are mixed with the locals. They obviously do not care for the people on whose land they live, is it any wonder that they would promote immorality & values that reject nationalism? Multiculturalism can only flourish if nationalistic feelings are rejected. 

By the way, what threat does Europe face without multiculturalism? As I recall from my history classes; many civilizations flourished in Europe without the help of foreigners. Does anyone want me to compare ancient Rome with the best of what Asia & Africa had to offer? Romulus might feel insulted if I compared Roma to Mohenjo-daro. 



Desert Fox said:


> If White people don't accept non-White in their countries= They are Racist intolerant people
> 
> Meanwhile Arabs and Israelis treat migrants in their country like sh!t in most cases. But that's completely alright.



I agree, there are people in G.C.C countries that think that if Arabia must accept immigrants, it should be none other than Arab immigrants. You might even come across people that are against all forms of immigration, but as usual; there are those that don't care about immigration at all. 



Desert Fox said:


> So do the israelis:
> 
> Chinese workers in Israel sign no-sex contract





Wow, do they really go to such lengths to protect God's chosen women from f!lthy, barbaric, evil Gentiles God rejected?  Israel is so close to Arabia geographically, but I never got to try God's chosen women right out of the holy land. We do have Palestinian women here though, but they weren't chosen by anyone; not even Satan.

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## Desert Fox

*Nazi Torch March returns in Germany*

















Far Right Torch march in Italy:






Neo-Nazi torch march Ukraine

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## Desert Fox

p(-)0ENiX said:


> I never understood why they would feel guilty about pretty much anything? Slavery existed in Arabia for centuries, even after the arrival of Islam. Did you know that the slave traders that bought Prophet Joseph were Ishmaelite Arabs? Many people sugar coat slavery in the Arab world by stating that Islam gives slaves rights & other blah, blah, blah.  The fact is that there is a difference between preaching something & practicing it. The conditions of some slaves did improve vastly, but many slaves were abused even in the Arab Islamic states, denying it is pointless.


Slavery in the West ended centuries before slavery was "officially" abolished Islamic countries.

Slavery in the US ended in 1865 (slavery in Saudi Arabia ended in 1970's), meanwhile Arabs of Arabia continued to buy and sell African slaves and to this day continue to do so, but again that is not highlighted by the media, which you already know is run by whom.

Also, the African slave trade had a lot of Jewish involvement, in fact they were the ones running the trade, Europeans were just the buyers.



p(-)0ENiX said:


> Do you want to know what the "_shuper, awshome, & amazingly kool_" Arab physician that described the pulmonary circulation of blood called Ibn al-Nafis thought of blacks?
> 
> According to Wikipedia:


What he stated sound very bitter, but its the truth, and truth is always bitter than the lie.




p(-)0ENiX said:


> The source for that quote is a book mentioned in the quote itself. Anyway, after all that; no one here feels guilty at all about slavery. People need to be proud of whatever their ancestors did even if they disagree with them, that might help this diminish this feeling of guilt. The sames goes for colonialism, what exactly is wrong with getting resources out of other people's land? If the locals have a problem with it; they should fight, if not; accept their defeat & humiliation. It's their fault they couldn't defend themselves anyway. Ownership of land was different back then in comparison to the modern concept of the nation state. The conqueror owns the land, the conquered lose it. Why don't white people protest against false accusations of hate crimes? I am sure some media outlets would provide them coverage, it's better than simply staying silent.


1). They don't own the media.

2). They don't own their own governments.

3). Their only method of spreading awareness is through social networking and websites.





p(-)0ENiX said:


> Here is an unwritten rule; you should never trust anyone you ever had trouble with in the past. The fact that some Jewish families have so much influence in a land that isn't their own should be alarming to the locals. The Jews view themselves as foreigners in Europe; including those that are mixed with the locals. They obviously do not care for the people on whose land they live, is it any wonder that they would promote immorality & values that reject nationalism? Multiculturalism can only flourish if nationalistic feelings are rejected.



I agree, however there are locals who are just too blind to reality, its a very complex matter in fact, because there are Jews who don't necessarily subscribe to the goals of which these few people have set to achieve.



p(-)0ENiX said:


> By the way, what threat does Europe face without multiculturalism? As I recall from my history classes; many civilizations flourished in Europe without the help of foreigners. Does anyone want me to compare ancient Rome with the best of what Asia & Africa had to offer? Romulus might feel insulted if I compared Roma to Mohenjo-daro.


True, i completely agree. Europe without all of these immigrants was advanced, people think these immigrants will bring something new when in fact most of the skills (in rare cases) these immigrants have are European in origin. Almost every invention is European in origin. What would society be without electricity, airplanes, telephones, computers, automobiles, trains, lightbulbs, etc.





p(-)0ENiX said:


> I agree, there are people in G.C.C countries that think that if Arabia must accept immigrants, it should be none other than Arab immigrants. You might even come across people that are against all forms of immigration, but as usual; there are those that don't care about immigration at all.


Actually, it should if you ask me. 





p(-)0ENiX said:


> Wow, do they really go to such lengths to protect God's chosen women from f!lthy, barbaric, evil Gentiles God rejected?  Israel is so close to Arabia geographically, but I never got to try God's chosen women right out of the holy land. We do have Palestinian women here though, but they weren't chosen by anyone; not even Satan.



In fact, they have set up a special harassment squad meant to harass any gentile seen walking with, even staring at a israel woman. And if you fight back you get locked up, and forget about any human rights violations or UN laws, those go straight in the trash bin when it comes to israel.

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## p(-)0ENiX

Desert Fox said:


> Slavery in the West ended centuries before slavery was "officially" abolished Islamic countries.
> 
> Slavery in the US ended in 1865 (slavery in Saudi Arabia ended in 1970's), meanwhile Arabs of Arabia continued to buy and sell African slaves and to this day continue to do so, but again that is not highlighted by the media, which you already know is run by whom.
> 
> Also, the African slave trade had a lot of Jewish involvement, in fact they were the ones running the trade, Europeans were just the buyers.



Yeah, I have read that too. The reason Arab slavery isn't talked about much is because the media here isn't really run by Jews. Although, ideas & values originating from the Western world are discussed here extensively. Besides, Arabs are nationalistic people; the G.C.C leaders for instance wouldn't create a society that clashes with their traditions. Slavery was pretty much normal at that time, I doubt anyone back then considered it evil, & modern white people shouldn't be ashamed of it either. While it's true that modern society thinks it's evil, people can not be held accountable for the work of their forefathers. I can see how minorities would use this to their advantage, & it seems the majority will have to knock some sense in to the minority.



Desert Fox said:


> What he stated sound very bitter, but its the truth, and truth is always bitter than the lie.



I agree, I was merely trying to make the point that while Muslims (especially Pakistanis) blame the West for hatred, similar points of view existed in the East too. 



Desert Fox said:


> 1). They don't own the media.
> 
> 2). They don't own their own governments.
> 
> 3). Their only method of spreading awareness is through social networking and websites.



Yeah, most of the media outlets are owned & operated by Jews, or should I say Zionist Jews? However, they need to spread awareness through other methods along with social networking. Protests are a good method, & I am sure some popular online bloggers & news papers will discuss their points of view. 



Desert Fox said:


> I agree, however there are locals who are just too blind to reality, its a very complex matter in fact, because there are Jews who don't necessarily subscribe to the goals of which these few people have set to achieve.



Generally, white nationalists are portrayed as being violent supremacists. They are going to have to work to change this perception, & clearly define the goals of their movement. If they fail to do that, even locals would be cautious of getting involved in such movements. For them to succeed, they have to weaken the power Zionists have gained in their countries. The Jews are Semites, they have no relation to them via culture, language, or most importantly; bloodline. 



Desert Fox said:


> True, i completely agree. Europe without all of these immigrants was advanced, people think these immigrants will bring something new when in fact most of the skills (in rare cases) these immigrants have are European in origin. Almost every invention is European in origin. What would society be without electricity, airplanes, telephones, computers, automobiles, trains, lightbulbs, etc.



Immigrants from poor countries have nothing to bring besides their food, language, & culture. Europe had advanced scientific & poetic languages along with multiple unique cultures of its own. The only era in which scientific progress declined in Europe was the Medieval age. European accomplishments are without doubt amazing, & that makes them worthy of respect. The places they settled on were developed by them from scratch, whereas people in the East still struggle to develop their own land.

Pakistanis think that every European accomplishment is based on advancements made by Muslims who oddly enough had absolutely no relation to Pakistanis whatsoever. Some Arabs feel the same way though. However, they neglect the fact that without studying the literature of the ancient Greeks, Romans, Persians, & Aryans; the Arab Islamic golden age would never have been possible.



Desert Fox said:


> Actually, it should if you ask me.



The biggest problem G.C.C countries have with immigrants is that they occupy the jobs that would otherwise have been performed by the locals. Government jobs in Saudi Arabia are generally reserved for the locals alone, & the law enforcement consists entirely of locals obviously. The advantage of bringing Arab immigrants here is that they would find it easier to integrate in to the society. Apart from that, there are hardly any racial tensions here, sectarian issues are an entirely different subject. The facilities offered to immigrants are similar regardless of origins, but I have heard that in some organizations; a person's salary varies according to nationality. 

I agree with you that they need to reduce the number of immigrants. That was impossible to do in the past, & it seems that it's still kind off difficult to do today. G.C.C countries needed an educated work force & they got that from abroad. Countries like the UAE needed immigrants because of the rising demand for a greater workforce the local population was unable to meet. UAE can not afford to give up on their economic practices just yet, it's similar to how Malaysia desires to become an educational hub, & in order to accomplish that feat; they will require highly qualified people from abroad along with their own. The difference is that the Western world's management of immigrants seems terrible, whereas over here; they seem to be better controlled.

Besides that, Middle Eastern countries rarely provide non-Arabs with their nationality, & it isn't exactly easy or common for Arab immigrants to get the nationality either. There are some social prejudices naturalized Arabs have to deal with here, to the locals; they are always going to be foreigners. That of course is perfectly natural & understandable. The law enforcement here is extremely strict & efficient, & very few ethnicities turn out to be a source of trouble. Recently, Saudis have had trouble with African & Bangladeshi immigrants. Those people are immediately deported, or in the case of African refugees; they have the sh!t beaten out of them by the police. The locals here aren't troublemakers either. In fact, the society is such that everyone generally minds their own business.



Desert Fox said:


> In fact, they have *set up a special harassment squad meant to harass any gentile seen walking with, even staring at a israel woman*. And if you fight back you get locked up, and forget about any human rights violations or UN laws, those go straight in the trash bin when it comes to israel.



I never knew that. According to Western standards, that's a great example of racism.

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## Banu Umayyah

p(-)0ENiX said:


> I never understood why they would feel guilty about pretty much anything? Slavery existed in Arabia for centuries, even after the arrival of Islam. Did you know that the slave traders that bought Prophet Joseph were Ishmaelite Arabs? Many people sugar coat slavery in the Arab world by stating that Islam gives slaves rights & other blah, blah, blah.  The fact is that there is a difference between preaching something & practicing it. The conditions of some slaves did improve vastly, but many slaves were abused even in the Arab Islamic states, denying it is pointless.
> 
> Do you want to know what the "_shuper, awshome, & amazingly kool_" Arab physician that described the pulmonary circulation of blood called Ibn al-Nafis thought of blacks?
> 
> According to Wikipedia:
> 
> 
> 
> The source for that quote is a book mentioned in the quote itself. Anyway, after all that; no one here feels guilty at all about slavery. People need to be proud of whatever their ancestors did even if they disagree with them, that might help this diminish this feeling of guilt. The sames goes for colonialism, what exactly is wrong with getting resources out of other people's land? If the locals have a problem with it; they should fight, if not; accept their defeat & humiliation. It's their fault they couldn't defend themselves anyway. Ownership of land was different back then in comparison to the modern concept of the nation state. The conqueror owns the land, the conquered lose it. Why don't white people protest against false accusations of hate crimes? I am sure some media outlets would provide them coverage, it's better than simply staying silent.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an unwritten rule; you should never trust anyone you ever had trouble with in the past. The fact that some Jewish families have so much influence in a land that isn't their own should be alarming to the locals. The Jews view themselves as foreigners in Europe; including those that are mixed with the locals. They obviously do not care for the people on whose land they live, is it any wonder that they would promote immorality & values that reject nationalism? Multiculturalism can only flourish if nationalistic feelings are rejected.
> 
> By the way, what threat does Europe face without multiculturalism? As I recall from my history classes; many civilizations flourished in Europe without the help of foreigners. Does anyone want me to compare ancient Rome with the best of what Asia & Africa had to offer? Romulus might feel insulted if I compared Roma to Mohenjo-daro.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, there are people in G.C.C countries that think that if Arabia must accept immigrants, it should be none other than Arab immigrants. You might even come across people that are against all forms of immigration, but as usual; there are those that don't care about immigration at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, do they really go to such lengths to protect God's chosen women from f!lthy, barbaric, evil Gentiles God rejected?  Israel is so close to Arabia geographically, but I never got to try God's chosen women right out of the holy land. We do have Palestinian women here though, but they weren't chosen by anyone; not even Satan.



You are making the issue of immigration in the west seems like it is multiculturalism vs human rights, while in reality Europe is in desperate need for working immigrants to help their sluggish economies. Its not that they feel guilty about colonialism at all. Europe demographically is old and getting older every year.
Also, Europe has a horrific racist history that can in no way be compared to any middle easter country, from Nazism to Eugenics to Arian nationalism. As for slavery, yes it did exist in Arabia for centuries but it exists today as well, from the factories of China to the Bangladesh sweat shops to the privately owned prison system in the US. Slavery has and for ever will exist.

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## Banu Umayyah

p(-)0ENiX said:


> Some Arabs feel the same way though. However, they neglect the fact that without studying the literature of the ancient Greeks, Romans, Persians, & Aryans; the Arab Islamic golden age would never have been possible.



True. But its also true that without the Education and translations Europeans got from Andalus, the renaissance would have never happened in Europe. That's a historical fact.

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## p(-)0ENiX

Banu Umayyah said:


> You are making the issue of immigration in the west seems like it is multiculturalism vs human rights, while in reality Europe is in desperate need for working immigrants to help their sluggish economies. Its not that they feel guilty about colonialism at all. Europe demographically is old and getting older every year.



Nope, it isn't about multiculturalism verses human rights. It's more about managing & controlling immigration. They need to improve their birth rate, there is no doubt about that. 



Banu Umayyah said:


> Also, Europe has a horrific racist history that can in no way be compared to any middle easter country, from Nazism to Eugenics to Arian nationalism. As for slavery, yes it did exist in Arabia for centuries but it exists today as well, from the factories of China to the Bangladesh sweet shops to the privately owned prison system in the US. Slavery has and for ever will exist.



No one here has mocked Arabs for the ancient slave trade that no longer exists in the Middle East. The point being made is that the modern day descendants of people shouldn't be blamed for what their ancestors did in the past. Nationalism is not equal to racism, in fact; it is essential for the survival of pretty much any race. That is one reason I actually like Arab Nationalism; it combines elements of both religion & ethnicity & uses it as a binding factor for the population. 

The holocaust was horrific, & it wasn't only the Jews that suffered during the holocaust. As for the rest of Europe's history; I don't see how it can be described as being "horrific" unless you are talking about some regions of Eastern Europe. One of the leaders of Romania during the medieval age called "Vlad the Impaler" is a good example of an idiot. The legend of Dracula originates from him too. His younger brother converted to Islam, & fought & defeated him alongside Ottoman armies. 



Banu Umayyah said:


> True. But its also true that without the Education and translations Europeans got from Andalus, the renaissance would have never happened in Europe. That's a historical fact.



Andalusia had turned in to an educational center back then, there is no doubt about that. Have you forgotten about the library in Baghdad? It was destroyed by the Mongols, but I have read that thousands of books were saved & taken to some other place. We already know that the Islamic civilization influenced, inspired, & led to the Italian Renaissance. As far as I know, Leonardo Da Vinci used to study books from both Arabic & Greek sources. In any case, knowledge flows from region to region. For instance; gunpowder was invented in China, & later on used by Arabs, Ottomans, the Mughals, & finally Europe.

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## james5

wonderful story about Europe.thanks for it.


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## Desert Fox

Banu Umayyah said:


> Also, *Europe has a horrific racist history that can in no way be compared to any middle easter country, from Nazism to Eugenics to Arian nationalism. *


You are speaking out of sheer ignorance. Though i'm not surprised at all since you are an Arab. Your worldview is most likely only limited to the ME, outside of that you know zilch.

Lets see, who started the African slave trade? Arabs and Jews, both of these people are semites and both started the African slave trade, NOT the Europeans.

The Origins of the African Slave Trade 

http://wysinger.homestead.com/mapofafricadiaspora3.html























*This photo in particular is of interest in that the Arab ship carrying the African slaves was intercepted by the British Navy, these salves were soon set free by the British.*



European African slave trade (Trans-Atlantic slave trade) only began around the late 1600's, continued through 1700's, and finally ended in 1800's. While Arabs (and Jews) were involved in the purchase, enslavement, and selling of black Africans for more than a Millennium.


"Racist" Europeans ended slavery in the 1800's, while "not" so racist Arabs and Jews continued slavery and still do so even as we speak, in the form of human trafficking, an example of which is kidnapping or purchasing Pakistani and Bangladeshi boys from poor families, as young as 4 to 5 years old, deliberately starving them and using them as camel jockeys. 



> *An Israeli citizen was sentenced yesterday to 18 years in prison by the Moscow military court, for organizing a vast network of sex trafficking. According to the court, from 1999 to 2007, when most of the network's agents were arrested, Avi Yanai and his accomplices sold hundreds of women for prostitution to Israel, Italy, Spain, Germany, Greece, the Netherlands, the United Arab Emirates and other countries.* The minimal official estimate stands at 129 women, but some of the states still investigating the network put the number at several hundred. The women were lured from Moldova, Ukraine, Russia, Belarus and Uzbekistan.


Russia sentences Israeli to 18 years for sex trafficking
This has become the state of Europe and Russia after decades of marxist Zionist rule.


Coming to Nazis, if you knew even a little about them, which again you don't since you are an Arab and only choose to believe in what you want to believe, you would have known that in Nazi Germany there were Mosques and under Hitler's regime Muslims were never targeted, in fact Hitler had a lot of respect for Islam.






Also, during the Berlin 1936 Olympics, Black African American Athlete Jesse Owens beat his German counterpart Luz Long, despite that, Hitler, unlike common perception that he left the stadium in anger, in fact congratulated the Black African American athlete just as he did to the other athletes that achieved gold medals. He didn't discriminate.

Forget Hitler - it was America that snubbed black Olympian Jesse Owens

 Hitler shook hands with black 1936 Olympic hero Jesse Owens



> It has long been regarded as the greatest sporting snub in history - when Adolf Hitler stormed out of the Olympic Stadium in Berlin because Germany had been humiliated by a black man.
> Hitler, who had shaken hands the previous day with all the German Olympic winners, left the stadium furious that his Ayran supermen had been beaten by their supposed racial inferior.
> 
> Or so the story goes.
> 
> But now a veteran sports reporter in Germany has come forward to claim that, though Hitler did indeed leave the stadium after the race, it was not before shaking Owens' hand.
> 
> Siegfried Mischner, 83, claims that Owens carried around a photograph in his wallet of the Fuehrer doing just that.
> 
> *Owens, who felt the newspapers of the day reported 'unfairly' on Hitler's attitude towards him, tried to get Mischner and his journalist colleagues to change the accepted version of history in the 1960s.*
> 
> *Mischner claimed Owens showed him the photograph and told him: 'That was one of my most beautiful moments.'*
> 
> 'The predominating opinion in post-war Germany was that Hitler had ignored Owens.
> *
> 'We therefore decided not to report on the photo. The consensus was that Hitler had to continue to be painted in a bad light in relation to Owens.'*


*

Hitler shaking the hands of a Black Athlete and congratulating him on his achievements is equivalent to Saudi King congratulating a Shia Iranian after the latter beats a Saudi athlete, which i doubt Saudis would ever do anyways.* 


Now, coming to Aryan Nationalism, what's wrong with it? There's Arab nationalism, perhaps you should advocate against that first before pointing fingers at others.





Banu Umayyah said:


> As for slavery, yes it did exist in Arabia for centuries but it exists today as well, from the factories of China to the Bangladesh sweat shops to the privately owned prison system in the US. Slavery has and for ever will exist.



Slavery in the US ended in 1865, Slavery in Britain ended in 1807, and in other European countries slavery ended within the 19th century. However in Saudi Arabia alone (disregarding the other Arab countries), slavery "officially" ended in 1970's, not sure about the other Arab countries.

China and bangladesh are also non-European countries, and if there is some sort of slavery in European/Western countries, it always turns out to have heavy semetic involvement.

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## Banu Umayyah

Desert Fox said:


> You are speaking out of sheer ignorance. Though i'm not surprised at all since you are an Arab. Your worldview is most likely only limited to the ME, outside of that you know zilch.
> 
> Lets see, who started the African slave trade? Arabs and Jews, both of these people are semites and both started the African slave trade, NOT the Europeans.
> 
> The Origins of the African Slave Trade
> 
> Africans Aboard a Slave Ship
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This photo in particular is of interest in that the Arab ship carrying the African slaves was intercepted by the British Navy, these salves were soon set free by the British.*
> 
> 
> 
> European African slave trade (Trans-Atlantic slave trade) only began around the late 1600's, continued through 1700's, and finally ended in 1800's. While Arabs (and Jews) were involved in the purchase, enslavement, and selling of black Africans for more than a Millennium.
> 
> 
> "Racist" Europeans ended slavery in the 1800's, while "not" so racist Arabs and Jews continued slavery and still do so even as we speak, in the form of human trafficking, an example of which is kidnapping or purchasing Pakistani and Bangladeshi boys from poor families, as young as 4 to 5 years old, deliberately starving them and using them as camel jockeys.
> 
> 
> Russia sentences Israeli to 18 years for sex trafficking
> This has become the state of Europe and Russia after decades of marxist Zionist rule.
> 
> 
> Coming to Nazis, if you knew even a little about them, which again you don't since you are an Arab and only choose to believe in what you want to believe, you would have known that in Nazi Germany there were Mosques and under Hitler's regime Muslims were never targeted, in fact Hitler had a lot of respect for Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, during the Berlin 1936 Olympics, Black African American Athlete Jesse Owens beat his German counterpart Luz Long, despite that, Hitler, unlike common perception that he left the stadium in anger, in fact congratulated the Black African American athlete just as he did to the other athletes that achieved gold medals. He didn't discriminate.
> 
> Forget Hitler - it was America that snubbed black Olympian Jesse Owens
> 
> Hitler shook hands with black 1936 Olympic hero Jesse Owens
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Hitler shaking the hands of a Black Athlete and congratulating him on his achievements is equivalent to Saudi King congratulating a Shia Iranian after the latter beats a Saudi athlete, which i doubt Saudis would ever do anyways.*
> 
> 
> Now, coming to Aryan Nationalism, what's wrong with it? There's Arab nationalism, perhaps you should advocate against that first before pointing fingers at others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Slavery in the US ended in 1865, Slavery in Britain ended in 1807, and in other European countries slavery ended within the 19th century. However in Saudi Arabia alone (disregarding the other Arab countries), slavery "officially" ended in 1970's, not sure about the other Arab countries.
> 
> China and bangladesh are also non-European countries, and if there is some sort of slavery in European/Western countries, it always turns out to have heavy semetic involvement.



lol a Pakistani new-Nazi!! 
First of all why do you restrict slavery to African slavery?. Europeans used slavery for thousands of years. Your source doesn't say that Arab and Jews were the origin of slavery. Read your own sources.

Second, no one cares how many Mosques existed in Nazi Germany. And no cares about what Hitler says about Islam. Its pathetic that you use this psychopath as a worthy name to support Islam. I mentioned Nazism because it caused immense human suffering incomparable to anything in the ME. Genocide is alien to our culture. Unlike your Arian idols who massacred 10s of millions of American natives and the holocaust that killed 17 million Jews and Gypsies. Or Americans who nuked two cities and used chemical weapons in Vietnam. Its absolutely undeniable that "whites" caused more wars and deaths than any human race. In fact its just enough to list ww1 &2.

Finally, to say slavery ended in the 19th century in America is total BS. Slavery exists today in American prisons. An inmate who has to live the rest of his life in a cage owned by a private cooperation that force their inmates to work for them *is* slavery, regardless of the crime committed. It should be pointed out that slavery in general is *not* banned in Islam. Therefore, your rant about Arab slavery practices is worthless from an Islamic perspective. In the case of prisoners of war, it is allowed to enslave enemy soldiers, but its not allowed to torture them for years like you Arian masters do in Guantanamo.
http://www.alternet.org/story/155199/private_prison_corporations_are_modern_day_slave_traders

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## Desert Fox

Banu Umayyah said:


> lol a Pakistani new-Nazi!!


They say that the first indication of a person with a low IQ is their resort to personal attacks and jabs at their opponent during a debate, a strong indication that they can't come up with a strong counter-argument.




Banu Umayyah said:


> First of all why do you restrict slavery to African slavery?. Europeans used slavery for thousands of years.


So did the Arabs, but the difference lies in the fact that Europeans outlawed slavery centuries before the Arabs.

Now you asked "why do you restrict slavery to African slavery?", well, you did bring up "racism" in your previous post didn't you? BTW, when will Saudi Arabia have a black King?



Banu Umayyah said:


> Your source doesn't say that Arab and Jews were the origin of slavery. Read your own sources.


I read them pretty well, you didn't.



> The East African Slave Trade
> 
> In East Africa a slave trade was well established before the Europeans arrived on the scene. *It was driven by the sultanates of the Middle East.* *African slaves ended up as sailors in Persia, pearl divers in the Gulf, soldiers in the Omani army and workers on the salt pans of Mesopotamia (modern Iraq).* Many people were domestic slaves, working in rich households. Women were taken as sex slaves.
> 
> Arab traders began to settle among the Africans of the coast, resulting in the emergence of a people and culture known as Swahili. In the second half of the 18th century, the slave trade expanded and became more organised. There was also a huge demand for ivory, and slaves were used as porters to carry it.


The Story of Africa| BBC World Service




> What these records show is that the modern slave trade flourished in the early middle ages, as early as 869, *especially between Muslim (Arab) traders and western African kingdoms*. For moralists, the most important aspect of that trade should be that Muslims (Arabs) were selling goods to the African kingdoms and the African kingdoms were paying with their own people. In most instances, no violence was necessary to obtain those slaves.
> 
> The more we study it, the less blame we have to put on the USA for the slave trade with black Africa: *it was pioneered by the Arabs*, its economic mechanism was invented by the Italians and the Portuguese, it was mostly run by western Europeans (between 1600's-1800's), and it was conducted with the full cooperation of many African kings.


The Origins of the Slave Trade

Although slavery did exist in Europe pre-colonial times, however it was negligible and only limited to the mediterranean region. 



Banu Umayyah said:


> Second, no one cares how many Mosques existed in Nazi Germany. And no cares about what Hitler says about Islam.


I care, and so do many other people interested in facts and not war propaganda.









Banu Umayyah said:


> Its pathetic that you use this psychopath as a worthy name to support Islam.


He's a "psychopath"? Says who? You? And who are you? Just another blind follower of the mass media which is owned by a few Zionists, who for some reason don't bother showing the atrocities committed by israel and men like Arial Sharon against innocent civilians.

I can't really expect much from an Arab though. 



Banu Umayyah said:


> I mentioned Nazism because it caused immense human suffering incomparable to anything in the ME.


BS. You have no proof of "immense human suffering" cause by Nazism except for allied propaganda and the Zionist holocaust industry.The Nazis come nowhere close to the subhuman barbarity and savagery you sub-saharan Arabs seem to be pro's at.

Remember, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was sent to you savages because you were the most backwards and ignorant people who indulged in burying your daughters as well as other unspeakable crimes. Even now, from Arab behavior, it seems savagery hasn't left you people. 

Besides, you should be thanking Nazism for their achievements and breakthroughs in science and technology, at least they contributed in one form or another, unlike you savage bedouins.



Banu Umayyah said:


> Genocide is alien to our culture.


Semites caused the deaths of millions of people through systematic murder and still continue to do so.



Banu Umayyah said:


> Unlike your Arian idols who massacred 10s of millions of American natives


Although, i agree that the native Americans were unjustly expelled from their native land, and to some extent even killed at the hands of European settlers, however even before mass deportations, the natives themselves would enslave one another and sell their own to the White settlers as well as cooperate with the Europeans against one another. Also, the natives were pure savages who would cannibalize subjugated tribes, they worshiped demons, and even killed white settlers and used their hair as wigs.

More natives died from disease as a result of coming into contact with White settlers through trade and commerce and not conflict.



Banu Umayyah said:


> and the holocaust that killed *17 million Jews and Gypsies*.



Pure BS, from where did you pull this number out of? I hope it wasn't from where you excrete fecal matter.

Besides the supposed "6 million" jews "murdered" by the Nazis, 200,000 Gypsies were also "murdered". 6,000,000+200,000=6,200,000 Jews and Gypsies "murdered".

So again genius, where did you pull the 17 million number from?

You Arabs share a lot in common with israelis, one trait you share is that you lie and fabricate a lot of BS. Which is why i believe you deserve each other, after all Arabs played a big part in israel's creation when they assisted the british in backstabbing Sunni Ottoman Turkey in 1916.



Banu Umayyah said:


> Or Americans who nuked two cities and used chemical weapons in Vietnam. Its absolutely undeniable that "whites" caused more wars and deaths than any human race. In fact its just enough to list ww1 &2.


Nukes developed by jewish scientists funded by wealthy jews who ran mutli-billion dollar corporations. How did you forget that part?



Banu Umayyah said:


> Finally, to say slavery ended in the 19th century in America is total BS. Slavery existed TODAY in the American prisons. An inmate who has to live the rest of his life in a cage owned by a private cooperation that force their inmates to work for them is 21st century slavery, regardless of the crime.


You forgot to mention that the corporation is most likely owned by a semite who's name ends with Berg, Sachs, Getz, Katz, Glantz, Kahn, Murdoch etc... Just as all war profiteering banks and corporations in the US are owned by semites.

Which is why i sad in my previous post in reply to you, that even if there is some slavery existent in the West, it most likely has heavy semetic involvement.



Banu Umayyah said:


> It should be pointed out that slavery in general is not banned in Islam. Therefore, your rant about Arab slavery practices is worthless from an Islamic perspective.


So if somebody enslaves you and your family it is okay, from an Islamic perspective? Perhaps you'll make a good slave who'll be happy to serve his master since you believe slavery is justified.



Banu Umayyah said:


> In case of prisoners of wars, it is allowed to enslave enemy soldiers, but its not allowed to torture them for years like you Arian masters do in Guantanamo.



So you mean to tell me that starving Pakistani and bangladeshi boys to make them light weight camel jockeys is not torture or enslavement? Making south asians laborers work in highly hazardous environments in long shifts and them give them deplorable housing areas to live in is not enslavement and torture?




> children as young as 10 are working as camel jockeys in the United Arab Emirates despite a law banning underage riders, new photos reveal.
> 
> *Observers from the organisation saw one child fall from a camel and narrowly escape being trampled at the Sweihan race track. Their pictures show children with badly fitting hats falling over their eyes at an event attended by dignitaries and uniformed police officers.*
> 
> *Before the ban, there were up to 3,000 child jockeys in the UAE, many of them trafficked from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sudan and Mauritania, but only about 1,000 were returned home under a repatriation scheme.*


UAE defies ban on child camel jockeys - Middle East - World - The Independent









> *Deplorable slave like conditions of South Asian immigrants in the GCC*
> 
> During those same visits to South Asia, I also had the opportunity to visit Dubai, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc. &#8211; the Gulf Cooperation Council states. *There I found the condition of South Asian immigrants to be so intolerable that people in the outside world need to know about it* and push their governments to exert pressure for reasonable change in that inhumane situation.
> 
> The Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) is a political and economic union of the Arab states bordering the Persian Gulf and located on the Arabian Peninsula, namely Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and United Arab Emirates (UAE). All these six states are extremely wealthy, and they are the allies of the United States, Great Britain, and the Western World. Crude oil and natural gas are their main exports and the source of their great wealth.
> 
> *The elite in these countries are so wealthy that they send their luxury cars to London for oil change (6,500 miles round trip).*
> 
> Asian immigrants to the Arab states of the Gulf Cooperation Council, however, cannot escape inferior status and oppression in working conditions, health care, residency, and legal recourse for harm done to them. *They effectively become slaves to employers who consider them unworthy of any degree of decent treatment as human beings &#8211; and, thus, totally disposable. It&#8217;s actually a racial discrimination of the worst kind.*
> 
> *They can well afford to pay these housemaids a living wage and provide decent working conditions, but in reality few do. Instead they force maids to work inhumanely exhausting hours; abuse them both verbally and physically to the point of torture; willfully delay, cut, or totally withhold their wages; and beat, rape, or even kill them.*
> 
> *The GCC Member States are now home to some of the most beautiful and architecturally advanced buildings in the world, including Dubai&#8217;s Burj Khalifa, now the tallest man-made structure on Earth. This magnificent multi-use showpiece was designed by an American architectural firm, but &#8211; like nearly everything else newly built in the region &#8211; was constructed mostly by South Asian immigrant workers.*
> 
> *Their working conditions are so hazardous that injuries and deaths are common, but the local news media barely notice. They have to live in ******, overcrowded labor camps and too often do not even receive the inexcusably low pay they are allotted. Certainly, they&#8217;ll never get to enjoy as visitors what they have worked so hard and risked their lives to build.*



Also, here's more sources:


*Indonesian maid tortured in Saudi Arabia, another beaten to death*

BBC-Indonesian president condemns Saudi torture of maid

*Indonesians outraged by maids&#8217; torture in Saudi Arabia*

Indonesian Maid Was Horribly Tortured, Yudhoyono

*Saudis consider maids as part of their furniture, a labor official once told me*

*Filipino maid in Saudi Arabia attacked with acid and stabbed to death*

*Saudi couple hammer 24 hot nails into their maid after she complained of heavy workload
*

*Human Trafficking & Modern-day Slavery in Saudi Arabia*

]*Saudis Import Slaves to America *

*Saudi Pinces' global prostitution rings and international child sex slave trade*

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## senheiser

mfreak said:


> Come again? Dont give me this "White genocide" bullshit. They will tell you how "muslims" and black people immigrate and have kids, or in some cases marry white women. So these guys have a problem with people sleeping with each other
> 
> These morons should be dragged to the street and shot like dogs, just to prove a point. Nazism should never be allowed at whatever cost.



So in your opinion an ethnic group that has an opinion should be dragged into the street and be shot like dogs? that sounds much more like nazism and racism to me.

How Whites Took Over America - YouTube

check this out to understand how Europeans feel.

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## Tshering22

> Islamic extremists are stepping up the creation of "no-go" areas in European cities that are off-limits to non-Muslims.



It is exactly actions like these that are forcing Europeans to go right wing. People from countries like Somalia and other such extreme places come and try to Arabize Europe.. naturally the Europeans will get pissed and start seeing everyone as the enemy. 

I mean let's see; if Buddhist monks from Tibet came to Saudi and established no-Muslim zones, how would the Saudis feel?

Same hostility isn't it?

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## Desert Fox

*'This isn't the Britain we fought for,' say the Veterans of WWII*


By Tony Rennell
UPDATED: 17:55 EST, 21 November 2009

Sarah Robinson was just a teenager when World War II broke out.

She endured the Blitz, watching for fires during Luftwaffe air raids armed with a bucket of sand.

Often she would walk ten miles home from work in the blackout, with bombs falling around her.

As soon as she turned 18, she joined the Royal Navy to do her bit for the war effort.



> *Some WWII soldiers, and families of those lost in the war, have complained society today shows no sign of the effort they made to help*




Hers was a small part in a huge, history-making enterprise, and her contribution epitomises her generation's sense of service and sacrifice.

Nearly 400,000 Britons died. Millions more were scarred by the experience, physically and mentally.
*
But was it worth it? Her answer - and the answer of many of her contemporaries, now in their 80s and 90s - is a resounding No.* 

*They despise what has become of the Britain they once fought to save. It's not our country any more, they say, in sorrow and anger.*

*Sarah harks back to the days when 'people kept the laws and were polite and courteous. We didn't have much money, but we were contented and happy.*
*
'People whistled and sang. There was still the United Kingdom, our country, which we had fought for, our freedom, democracy. But where is it now?!'*



> *Sarah Robinson, who joined the Royal Navy when she was 18, says the Britain she once knew no longer exists*



The feelings of Sarah and others from this most selfless generation about the modern world have been recorded by a Tyneside writer, 33-year-old Nicholas Pringle.

Curious about his grandmother's generation and what they did in the war, he decided three years ago to send letters to local newspapers across the country asking for those who lived through the war to write to him with their experiences.

He rounded off his request with this question: 'Are you happy with how your country has turned out? What do you think your fallen comrades would have made of life in 21st-century Britain?'

*What is extraordinary about the 150 replies he received, which he has now published as a book, is their vehement insistence that those who made the ultimate sacrifice in the war would now be turning in their graves.*

There is the occasional bright spot - one veteran describes Britain as 'still the best country in the world' - but the overall tone is one of profound disillusionment.

*'I sing no song for the once-proud country that spawned me,' wrote a sailor who fought the Japanese in the Far East, 'and I wonder why I ever tried.'*

*'My patriotism has gone out of the window,' said another ex-serviceman.*

In the Mail this week, Gordon Brown wrote about 'our debt of dignity to the war generation'.
*
But the truth that emerges from these letters is that the survivors of that war generation have nothing but contempt for his government.*

They feel, in a word that leaps out time and time again, 'betrayed'.

New Labour, said one ex-commando who took part in the disastrous Dieppe raid in which 4,000 men were lost, was 'more of a shambles than some of the actions I was in during the war, and that's saying something!'

He added: *'Those comrades of mine who never made it back would be appalled if they could see the world as it is today.
*
*'They would wonder what happened to the Brave New World they fought so damned hard for.'*

Nor can David Cameron take any comfort from the elderly.

*His 'hug a hoodie' advice was scorned by a generation of brave men and women now too scared, they say, to leave their homes at night.
*
*Immigration tops the list of complaints.*

*'This Land of Hope and Glory is just a land of yobs and drunks'*

*'People come here, get everything they ask, for free, laughing at our expense,' was a typical observation.*

*'We old people struggle on pensions, not knowing how to make ends meet. If I had my time again, would we fight as before? Need you ask?'*



> * Britain has become 'a land of yobs and drunks'
> *


*
Many writers are bewildered and overwhelmed by a multicultural Britain that, they say bitterly, they were never consulted about nor feel comfortable with.*

*'Our country has been given away to foreigners while we, the generation who fought for freedom, are having to sell our homes for care and are being refused medical services because incomers come first.'*

Her words may be offensive to many - and rightly so - but Sarah Robinson defiantly states: 'We are affronted by the appearance of Muslim and Sikh costumes on our streets.' 

*But then political correctness is another thing they take strong issue with, along with politicians generally - 'liars, incompetents and self-aggrandising charlatans' (with the revealing exception of Enoch Powell).*

*The loss of British sovereignty to the European Union caused almost as much distress. 'Nearly all veterans want Britain to leave the EU,' wrote one.*

Frank, a merchant navy sailor, thought of those who gave their lives 'for King and country', only for Britain to become 'an offshore island of a Europe where France and Germany hold sway. Ironic, isn't it?'


*



'Our culture is draining away and we are forbidden to say anything'

Click to expand...

*
As a group, they feel furious at not being able to speak their minds.

They see the lack of debate and the damning of dissenters as racists or Little Englanders as deeply upsetting affronts to freedom of speech.

*'Our British culture is draining away at an ever increasing pace,' wrote an ex-Durham Light Infantryman, 'and we are almost forbidden to make any comment.'*

A widow from Solihull blamed the Thatcher years 'when we started to lose all our industry and profit became the only aim in life'.

*Her husband, a veteran of Dunkirk and Burma, died a disappointed man, believing that his seven years in the Army were wasted.*

*'It is 18 years since I lost him and as I look around parts of Birmingham today you would never know you were in England,' she wrote.*

'He would have hated it. He also disliked the immoral way things are going. I don't think people are really happy now, for all the modern, easy-living conveniences.

'I disagree with same-sex marriages, schoolgirl mothers, rubbish TV programmes, so-called celebrities and, most of all, unlimited immigration.

*'I am very unhappy about the way this country is being transformed. I go nowhere after dark. I don't even answer my doorbell then.'*

A Desert Rat who battled his way through El Alamein, Sicily, Italy and Greece was in despair.

'This is not the country I fought for. Political correctness, lack of discipline, compensation madness, uncontrolled immigration - the "do-gooders" have a lot to answer for.
*
'If you see youngsters doing something they shouldn't and you say anything, you just get a mouthful of foul language.'*

Undoubtedly, some of the complaints are 'grumpy old man' gripes, as the veterans themselves recognise - from chewing gum on pavements and motorists using mobile phones to the march of computerisation ('why can't I just go to the station and buy a railway ticket?') and the dearth of pop music tunes you can hum.

But it is the fundamental change in society's values which they find hardest to come to terms with.

Bring back birching and hanging, the sanctions they grew up with, they say. Put more bobbies back on the beat.

*'We were rigidly taught good manners and respect for older people,' said a wartime WAAF, 'but the nanny state has ruined all that. Television programmes are full of violence and obscene language.*

*This Land of Hope and Glory is in reality a land of yobs, drug addicts, drunkard youths and teenage mothers who think they are owed all for nothing.'*

Aged 85, she has little wish to go on living.

For others, the strength of character that got them through the war is still helping them to survive the disappointments of peacetime.

A crofter's son from Scotland who served on the Arctic convoys taking supplies to Russia found the immediate post-war years hard. 



> *Soldiers of the British Expeditionary Force leave the UK for France aboard a troopship to help the French Resistance during WWII*



'In those days we had no welfare support from any source. It was as though we had served our country to the full and were then forgotten.

'However, we were very resilient and determined to make a go of it, and many of us, including myself, succeeded.

'How times have changed now, with the countless many clamouring to get welfare benefits for the asking.'

A medic who made it through Dunkirk and D-Day thought the fallen would be appalled by the lack of manners in modern life and the worship of celebrities, plus 'the patent dishonesty of politicians'.

Another common issue was their bemusement at the idea anyone could live in constant debt.

'We were brought up to believe that if you hadn't the money, you waited till you had!' one wrote.

However, this particular man was unusual among the 150 respondents in believing that there were many pluses to modern life.

He even had a good word to say about the European Union and felt it would appeal to the fallen 'if only for maintaining the peace in Europe over the past 60 years or so'.

He praised the breaking down of class barriers in Britain compared with the years when he was young and 'infinitely' increased prosperity.

'More clothes, cars, holidays abroad, home ownership. As a young teacher in the Fifties I had one suit (Army issue) and the luxury of a sports jacket and flannels at the weekend.

'Education has made vast progress. In my early days I taught classes of 50. Only five per cent of children went on to further education compared with over 40 per cent today.

'The emancipation of women has also been a huge plus, with the introduction of the Pill a large contributor. Before the war, women teachers were dismissed as soon as they married.'

A Land Girl who laboured on farms in Devon during the war agreed that 'we have so much to be grateful for.

'So much progress has been made to transform the standard of living since the war.'

But she could not help asking whether people were any happier.

*She bemoaned the advent of the Pill and the collapse of sexual morality. 'In my day, drugs were unknown, families remained together, divorce was a rarity and children felt secure.*

'Were our sacrifices made so hooligans may run wild? And aggressive behaviour be accepted as the norm by TV interviewers and society in general?'

A captain with a Military Cross for valour under fire thought Britain was still the best country in the world.

*The 'occasional' sight of parents and nicely dressed children gave an otherwise gloomy veteran of the Italian campaign a sense that 'what we did all those years ago was not for nothing'.*

A grandmother, the widow of a Royal Marine who took part in the D-Day landings, felt the National Health Service had descended into chaos but was grateful for a pensioner's free television licence, 'which brings art, travel and animals into my home', and being able to text her grandchildren.

Just being alive was a bonus. *'Although I hate what is happening to our country, I am so happy to be here, grumbling, but remembering better, happier days,' she wrote.*

*But one of the bitterest complaints of the veterans was that their trenchant views on many of the matters aired here were constantly ignored by those in authority.*

*Their letters of complaint to councillors and MPs went unanswered.

It was as if they didn't matter, except when wheeled out for the rituals of Remembrance Day.*




> One person complained 'it is not right those lost in the World Wars are only remembered publicly on Remembrance Day'



'Why do so many of the British public confuse sentimentality with genuine concern for others?' asked one letter-writer.

But this was the generation honoured in Remembrance services last weekend, showered with gratitude and teary-eyed sentiments as their dwindling ranks marched unsteadily past the Cenotaph and other war memorials throughout the UK.

The overall impression any reader of the letters gets is that this generation feel unheard, unwanted and unimportant.

This remarkable collection of their thoughts should give us pause for reflection.

They may be deemed beyond their sell-by date (and many of their views may seem unacceptable, flouting every sort of 'ism' imaginable) but, by their deeds of 60-plus years ago, they have won the right to be listened to and their disillusionment noted with respect.

*In one letter in this collection, an RAF mechanic quoted a poem about comrades who fell in battle: 'I mourned them then, But now surviving in a world, Indifferent to their hopes and dreams, I grieve more for the living.'*

&#8226; The Unknown Warriors by Nicholas Pringle, £11.69. For copies, go to the website The Unknown Warriors, a WWII non fiction history book in paperback and ebook for kindle etc format.

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## muse

@Desert Fox

Great thread -- it's interesting that none of the Islam mongers on our forum have commented on the thread - is it any wonder those poor Europeans are threatened?

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## Desert Fox

muse said:


> @Desert Fox
> 
> Great thread -- it's interesting that none of the Islam mongers on our forum have commented on the thread - is it any wonder those poor Europeans are threatened?



They don't comment on this thread because the bitter truth is staring them right in the face and any attempt to counter the truth is futile.

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## muse

Give em hell!

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## Desert Fox

muse said:


> Give em hell!



Read the argument i had with that Saudi BannuUmayah. His argument was a utter failure.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/europe...onalism-rise-europe-russia-4.html#post3516901

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## Vinod2070

muse said:


> @Desert Fox
> 
> Great thread -- it's interesting that none of the Islam mongers on our forum have commented on the thread - is it any wonder those poor Europeans are threatened?



They won't.

They will avoid it like the plague and pretend the issues don't exist. Even a grudging "acceptance" will be perfunctory, to be made and done with, to move on to familiar pasture of victim hood.

Mentioning these facts is "Islamophobia", "racism" and worse.

So much easier to blame it all on the "other".


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## Battle of Kursk

The posts are long and I couldn't find the time to read every word. but here are a few comments.

off topic:
* I am not sure, desert fox, that you understand what Zionism means. It is the belief that Jews are entitled to return to Israel and build their land there (Zion=Jerusalem). Not every Jew is a Zionist. Bolsheviks are not equal to Zionists, this is amazingly easy to show. USSR armed and supported the enemies of Israel in wars and has sided with them diplomatically, USSR has denied it's Jews to migrate to Israel, that's the reason for the large waves of Jews leaving former USSR countries in the early 90's.

* Israel is also limited by "human right" movements. in effect Israel has only deported about 2k illegal immigrants exactly because of those groups and European pressure (that is out of an estimated 100k). 
* The so called violence against immigrants in Israel is summed up to a total of 1 arson in an apartment, 1 incident of a glass bomb, a couple of shoves here and there that didn't lead to serious injuries and a busted window. not one serious injury incident iirc.
* As opposed to many immigrants in the EU practically every non Jewish African immigrant to Israel is an illegal immigrant. How can you deny the right of Israel to turn them down and send them back to their original countries?

on topic:

here's an Israeli's show take on Radical Islam elements in Europe:
things to keep in mind while watching:
- This is a TV show, not a study. So naturally they are focusing on the radical elements, it doesn't try to state that most EU Muslims are like that (actually states to the contrary sometimes).
- for the same reason there is sometimes over dramatization via music and shooting angles, try to ignore this.

watch?v=JbPmSDnvCL4


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## I-LEK

*the Caucasus and among Caucasians (in Russia and Europe)
is also growing ultra-right-wing views. secretly. secretly. or on the streets or stands. but this is rare ..

ahahaa))) neo-Nazi Slavs - believe us - Aryans-Caucasians "=" "Untermensch")) ahaha)) lol!))

we are the Aryans, we Caucasus.
and 3 Reich believed the Slavs - Untermensch))) it is a fact (the words of Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels and others))

Chechens / Slavs.






Dagestani. fans of "Anji - Makhachkala."





Ultra-right of the Palestinians.




Haj Amin al-Husseini! friend of Adolf Hitler! Yasser Arafat's uncle!






we will see 4 Reich ;-) *


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## Desert Fox

@WhiteMansBurden @flamer84

Sadly, since the Caliphate thread has been closed due to moderation and the trolling of certain members, i would like for you guys to continue your discussion here on this thread regarding European/Western civilization and the impact of non-European immigrants on the age old civilization.

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## -SINAN-

@WhiteMansBurden



> What part of most Turks are not White did you not understand? The irony is that you have the arrogance to say I said something that is not true, even though you've already conceded that your English is bad enough that you might miss what I was getting at.



Man, i don't see why you getting angry. I said "*If* the majority of the Turk's *were* white, you wouldn't object them to enter in EU, right" That would be irony indeed IMO.



> ]The overwhelmingly majority of Turks are West Asians, and not White. There may be some Turks, especially in the Northwestern regions, which cluster with Europeans. If they do so, then regardless of whether you "care" or not, they're genetically White. Then again, I've seen no evidence of this.




Again i'm not discussing if the Turk's are white or black or pink. I think you get me with my comment above.


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## Desert Fox

[MENTION]AUz[/MENTION]

Quoting AUz from the Caliphate thread:



AUz said:


> There is no "Western Civilization" and no one "Western Culture" ....
> 
> You are an idiot!
> 
> So what if Turkey is a Muslim? Islam has already entered mainland Europe, Mashallah...Why afraid of it?
> 
> Turks ruled/dominated European lands for CENTURIES! They are very European..



Elaborate what you mean by "there is no Western civilization, or Western culture"??

Secondly, please refrain from using derogatory remarks and name calling when addressing another member.

If you disagree then refute the argument in a civilized manner.

By resorting to name calling you are putting up a bad image of yourself and as well as the views you represent.

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## flamer84

Desert Fox said:


> @WhiteMansBurden @flamer84
> 
> Sadly, since the Caliphate thread has been closed due to moderation and the trolling of certain members, i would like for you guys to continue your discussion here on this thread regarding European/Western civilization and the impact of non-European immigrants on the age old civilization.



As i've stated on the previous thread i'm not against immigration per say based on skin colour or religious beliefs,if people actually come here to work and don't want want to impose their beliefs on me then it's ok.
Unfortunately we have have problems today because we tolerate radicals or because we've let in scores of unneducated immigrants who can't find jobs and are now turning against us,in short we've let unchecked immigration run amok.My theory is that they want to use these immigrants as scapegoats in order to impose tighter goverment control policies on us in the name of fighting radicals and disorder.

I can't agree with the far right,one thing i've learned in history is that after they're done with minorities they'll turn against every voice of dissent and it so happens that i like my freedoms and right to disagree with authority when they do something wrong in my perception and don't fancy the ideea of beeing shipped to some camp just because i've stated my opinion.

Basically,we're not destroying ourselves from letting other cultures in,we're destroying orselves because we let radicals and illiterates from other cultures in.

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## WhiteMansBurden

Desert Fox said:


> @WhiteMansBurden @flamer84
> 
> Sadly, since the Caliphate thread has been closed due to moderation and the trolling of certain members, i would like for you guys to continue your discussion here on this thread regarding European/Western civilization and the impact of non-European immigrants on the age old civilization.





What's there to discuss? Some intellectual midget by the name of "Tony" (seriously.... Tony?) kept posting links to Eastern European criminals and Sikh cricket players.


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## -SINAN-

Desert Fox said:


> @WhiteMansBurden @flamer84
> 
> Sadly, since the Caliphate thread has been closed due to moderation and the trolling of certain members, i would like for you guys to continue your discussion here on this thread regarding European/Western civilization and the impact of non-European immigrants on the age old civilization.



If you want a discussion, you should invite some guys from the opposing camp or there won't be any discussion at all.

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## WhiteMansBurden

Sinan said:


> @WhiteMansBurden
> 
> 
> 
> Man, i don't see why you getting angry. I said "*If* the majority of the Turk's *were* white, you wouldn't object them to enter in EU, right" That would be irony indeed IMO.



If the Turks were White, then I don't know... They are culturally not Western, and that matters to me as well.

Again, I have no problems with Turks, so don't take it as a personal insult.

I have the greatest admiration and respect for the Japanese people, yet I wouldn't want them living in my country, or joining the EU.

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## Desert Fox

flamer84 said:


> As i've stated on the previous thread i'm not against immigration per say based on skin colour or religious beliefs,if people actually come here to work and don't want want to impose their beliefs on me then it's ok.
> Unfortunately we have have problems today because we tolerate radicals or because we've let in scores of unneducated immigrants who can't find jobs and are now turning against us,in short we've let unchecked immigration run amok.My theory is that they want to use these immigrants as scapegoats in order to impose tighter goverment control policies on us in the name of fighting radicals and disorder.



Skilled immigrants in limited numbers is one thing, but allowing hordes of illiterate asylum seekers into your country and giving them special privileges over the native population is suicide of a Nation. 

As a result, you have European natives who dare not raise voice against immigrants due to the fear of being labeled "racist, Nazi, Fascist, etc".

But what's wrong with being pro-country, or Nationalist?



flamer84 said:


> I can't agree with the far right,one thing i've learned in history is that after they're done with minorities they'll turn against every voice of dissent and it so happens that i like my freedoms and right to disagree with authority when they do something wrong in my perception and don't fancy the ideea of beeing shipped to some camp just because i've stated my opinion.



Are you referring to National Socialism of Hitler's Germany and the Fascism of her Allies in WW2?

Because AFAIK Eastern European native population suffered the shipping to labor camps and clamping down on political dissent during the Communist occupation from 1945 to 1989.



WhiteMansBurden said:


> What's there to discuss? Some intellectual midget by the name of "Tony" (seriously.... Tony?) kept posting links to Eastern European criminals and Sikh cricket players.



No, other members who were also arguing in a civil manner.


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## WhiteMansBurden

Sinan said:


> If you want a discussion, you should invite some guys from the opposing camp or there won't be any discussion at all.



Maybe this should wake them up a little.

Many Indians like to see themselves as equal competitors to China, and are encouraged in their endeavor by gushing Western editorials and Tom Friedman drones who praise their few islands of programming prowess &#8211; in reality, much of which is actually pretty low-level stuff &#8211; and widespread knowledge of the English language (which makes India a good destination for call centers but not much else), while ignoring the various aspects of Indian life &#8211; the caste system, malnutrition, stupendously bad schools &#8211; that are holding them back. The low quality of Indians human capital reveals the &#8220;demographic dividend&#8221; that India is supposed to enjoy in the coming decades as the wild fantasies of what Sailer rightly calls &#8221;Davos Man craziness at its craziest.&#8221; A large cohort of young people is worse than useless when most of them are functionally illiterate and innumerate; instead of fostering well-compensated jobs that drive productivity forwards, they will form reservoirs of poverty and potential instability.

Instead of buying into their own rhetoric of a &#8220;India shining&#8221;, Indians would be better served by focusing on the nitty gritty of bringing childhood malnutrition *DOWN* to Sub-Saharan African levels, achieving the life expectancy of late Maoist China, and moving up at least to the level of a Mexico or Moldova in numeracy and science skills.


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## Desert Fox

Sinan said:


> If you want a discussion, you should invite some guys from the opposing camp or there won't be any discussion at all.



I'm trying to get them all here but sometimes this mention thing doesn't work properly. 


@Yabgu

Fell free to join this thread and continue a civil conversation here.

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## flamer84

Desert Fox said:


> Skilled immigrants in limited numbers is one thing, but allowing hordes of illiterate asylum seekers into your country and giving them special privileges over the native population is suicide of a Nation.
> 
> As a result, you have European natives who dare not raise voice against immigrants due to the fear of being labeled "racist, Nazi, Fascist, etc".
> 
> But what's wrong with being pro-country, or Nationalist?
> 
> 
> 
> Are you referring to National Socialism of Hitler's Germany and the Fascism of her Allies in WW2?
> 
> Because AFAIK Eastern European native population suffered the shipping to labor camps and clamping down on political dissent during the Communist occupation from 1945 to 1989.




Well,i'm not one of those guys,with the risk of beeing called a racist i will speak my mind and i don't buy this "unhappy youth" the media is throwing whenever we see riots in Europe.Btw,tonight some "unhappy youths" are "protesting"(full riots) in Paris because the police tried to enforce the "no veil" law.Yes,unchecked immigration is murder and will result in ethnic conflict.

Just because the communists were bad that doesn't make the nazis any better,they tried to murder the poles,the slavs in general and they were white.Also,a "final solution" is NOT a solution.

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## p(-)0ENiX

@Desert Fox

How are you bro? Its been a long time since I last visited Defence.pk, but I am back now.

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## Desert Fox

WhiteMansBurden said:


> Maybe this should wake them up a little.
> 
> Many Indians like to see themselves as equal competitors to China, and *are encouraged in their endeavor by gushing Western editorials and Tom Friedman drones who praise their few islands of programming prowess &#8211; in reality, much of which is actually pretty low-level stuff &#8211; and widespread knowledge of the English language (which makes India a good destination for call centers but not much else), while ignoring the various aspects of Indian life *&#8211; the caste system, malnutrition, stupendously bad schools &#8211; that are holding them back. The low quality of Indians human capital reveals the &#8220;demographic dividend&#8221; that India is supposed to enjoy in the coming decades as the wild fantasies of what Sailer rightly calls &#8221;Davos Man craziness at its craziest.&#8221; A large cohort of young people is worse than useless when most of them are functionally illiterate and innumerate; instead of fostering well-compensated jobs that drive productivity forwards, they will form reservoirs of poverty and potential instability.



I see a similar trend here in the U.S. of A. Its mostly the liberal and warmongering media that actually portrays a false image in order to support one side against another rather than highlight the actual shortcomings of that side in order to better help those people.

Example of this is the Trayvon Martin case, in which the Liberal and warmongering media is convincing non-Whites that somehow their biggest problem is a White man with a gun rather than the gangs roaming our streets, the wall street banksters, or the desperate economic situation this nation faces, along with the growing economy and the useless wars being fought for a certain country in the ME.



p(-)0ENiX said:


> @Desert Fox
> 
> How are you bro? Its been a long time since I last visited Defence.pk, but I am back now.



I'm good Brother, how are you?

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## -SINAN-

WhiteMansBurden said:


> If the Turks were White, then I don't know... They are culturally not Western, and that matters to me as well.
> 
> Again, I have no problems with Turks, so don't take it as a personal insult.
> 
> I have the greatest admiration and respect for the Japanese people, yet I wouldn't want them living in my country, or joining the EU.



Nope  Man, telling a Turk that"you are not Westener, is not insult at all".  We don't belong to west and east, we are unique. I want my country to reach the same levels as GDP/capita, democracy, freedom of speech. etc.. I don't want my culture being changed or want their laws, or aligning with them on foreign policy.


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## WhiteMansBurden

flamer84 said:


> Well,i'm not one of those guys,with the risk of beeing called a racist i will speak my mind and i don't buy this "unhappy youth" the media is throwing whenever we see riots in Europe.Btw,tonight some "unhappy youths" are "protesting"(full riots) in Paris because the police tried to enforce the "no veil" law.Yes,unchecked immigration is murder and will result in ethnic conflict.
> 
> Just because the communists were bad that doesn't make the nazis any better,they tried to murder the poles,the slavs in general and they were white.Also,a "final solution" is NOT a solution.



I don't believe in a final solution, nor am I a neo-NAZI. I guess those two things we can agree on. Hitler pretty much thought of Slavs as a different species, something which has been shown to be clearly false by modern genetic sequencing techniques.



Desert Fox said:


> I see a similar trend here in the U.S. of A. Its mostly the liberal and warmongering media that actually portrays a false image in order to support one side against another rather than highlight the actual shortcomings of that side in order to better help those people.
> 
> Example of this is the Trayvon Martin case, in which the Liberal and warmongering media is convincing non-Whites that somehow their biggest problem is a White man with a gun rather than the gangs roaming our streets, the wall street banksters, or the desperate economic situation this nation faces, along with the growing economy and the useless wars being fought for a certain country in the ME.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm good Brother, how are you?



Indeed, and this "White man" is 1/2 Amerindian!

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## WhiteMansBurden

Sinan said:


> Nope  Man, telling a Turk that"you are not Westener, is not insult at all".  We don't belong to west and east, we are unique. I want my country to reach the same levels as GDP/capita, democracy, freedom of speech. etc.. I don't want my culture being changed or want their laws, or aligning with them on foreign policy.



No, it's not an insult, if you were being sarcastic. The Japanese will never be Western if they retain Japanese culture, yet I admire them very much. 

It's not meant to be an insult, just my opinion. Turks have their own culture as you said. I think it's a mix of both Middle-Easter and European, with a tinge of Central Asian sprinkled in.

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## Jungibaaz

With the economic decline of Europe, more of this is to be expected. 
No matter which case you study, increasing economic problems in country create social unrest.

Now here, people look for someone to blame, common man faces unemployment. 
All it takes is that one man to say 'it's those immigrants taking our jobs', and there you have it.

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## flamer84

Jungibaaz said:


> With the economic decline of Europe, more of this is to be expected.
> No matter which case you study, increasing economic problems in country create social unrest.
> 
> Now here, people look for someone to blame, common man faces unemployment.
> All it takes is that one man to say 'it's those immigrants taking our jobs', and there you have it.



Some of them really don't help their cause either with the rioting,demands for cultural changes.Granted,they are not the majority but they'll always be in the spotlight.

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## Hyperion

Whenever Europe goes hungry/without a job, they become violent. What does this tell us?


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## -SINAN-

WhiteMansBurden said:


> No, it's not an insult, if you were being sarcastic. The Japanese will never be Western if they retain Japanese culture, yet I admire them very much.
> 
> It's not meant to be an insult, just my opinion. Turks have their own culture as you said. I think it's a mix of both Middle-Easter and European, with a tinge of Central Asian sprinkled in.



Sir, i'm really not being sarcastic. 

Westener as we call it "gavur", as it means non-muslim, mostly used against Europeans as a insult. Most of the Turk's are very nationalistic and Westeners have been seen as "weak and coward" for centuries.

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## Desert Fox

flamer84 said:


> Well,i'm not one of those guys,with the risk of beeing called a racist i will speak my mind and i don't buy this "unhappy youth" the media is throwing whenever we see riots in Europe.Btw,tonight some "unhappy youths" are "protesting"(full riots) in Paris because the police tried to enforce the "no veil" law.Yes,unchecked immigration is murder and will result in ethnic conflict.


IMHO, if there will be a conflict between the two sides (immigrants and Nationalist), the immigrants have more manpower, at least in Western European countries where the native birth rate is almost non-existent.




flamer84 said:


> Just because the communists were bad that doesn't make the nazis any better,they tried to murder the poles,the slavs in general and they were white.Also,a "final solution" is NOT a solution.



Well, my friend, here is the problem. Most of this stuff you have been made to believe in has been blown out of proportion or completely made up by the victorious Western Allies and their Soviet pals. 


If by final solution, you mean the so called "systematic" "gassings" of Jews by the Germans and their cooperators then this story really has no basis. For which is why it is a closely guarded secret and anyone who questions it is immediately imprisoned in Europe.

Secondly, coming to Poland. The German-Polish conflict was instigated by Churchill and Roosevelt. This fact is confirmed by Polish ambassador to United States himself.

German-Polish dispute was over Danzig Corridor, which the two countries were close to solving the issue of. However, Churchill couldn't tolerate a prosperous and powerful Germany who's economic system posed a thread to the international finance.

And if i may suggest you look up the Katyn Forest Massacre, in which it was the Soviet NKVD, and not the Germans, who butchered between 15,000-20,000 Polish intellectuals, officers, land owners, aristocrats, and officers; the cream of the Polish people.

Poland was later given to the Soviets on a platter by Churchill and Roosevelt, the same Poland who's integrity they destroyed Germany over.

Coming to German views of the Slavs. Well, i would suggest you read Leon Degrelle's "Campaign in Russia: Waffen SS on the Eastern Front" to understand what lead to such views of the Soviet people.

And finally, it was not the Germans who were responsible for most of the Russian casualties during WW2, rather it was Stalin and his NKVD themselves who butchered their own people out of the fear that they would assist the initially successful Axis armies. This fact is confirmed by Russian Historian Tolstoy.


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## flamer84

Hyperion said:


> Whenever Europe goes hungry/without a job, they become violent. What does this tell us?



That in our core we're violent savages?  We like to think that we've evolved but it seems that only economic prosperity has kept us in check,remove the "panem et circens" from the equation and we might have problems on our hands yet again.I hope that time will proove me wrong.

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## AUz

Desert Fox said:


> [MENTION]AUz[/MENTION]
> 
> Quoting AUz from the Caliphate thread:
> 
> 
> 
> Elaborate what you mean by "there is no Western civilization, or Western culture"??
> 
> Secondly, please refrain from using derogatory remarks and name calling when addressing another member.
> 
> If you disagree then refute the argument in a civilized manner.
> 
> By resorting to name calling you are putting up a bad image of yourself and as well as the views you represent.



I said there is no "unified" Western Culture..well, probably I forgot to write the word but I had this discussion many times on this forum before...

There is no "Western Civilization" ... just as there is no "Islamic Civilization" ...There are Germans, French, Americans, Romanians etc..but they are NOT a part of one single 'civilization'.

If you are well-versed in history, then you would know that all these terms like "Civilization" , "Culture" arose around 18th-19th century (used mostly by French writers) in order to justify colonialism...

Early Muslim writers did not use terms like "Islamic Civilization" BUT it were Europeans who came with these terms..so that a clear distinction can be made between 'civilized' us vs 'uncivilized' them...

A girl living in America barely as anything in common with a girl living in Romania (may be color and religion are same, thats it)..How can they both be members of same 'civilization'?

In this regard, I and some Egyptian dude are a part of same 'civilization' since we are both brown and Muslim...but that is wrong.

Similarly, there is no one "Western Civilization" ... There is French Civilization, Anglo-Saxon may be, and so on...

PS. Whitemanburden is a troll and mostly say utterly ignorant things...

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## Hyperion

Well, this time I don't have any concerns.........we in the "rest" of the world are armed "to-the-teeth".... at-least you ain't gonna come our way... 



flamer84 said:


> That in our core we're violent savages?  We like to think that we've evolved but it seems that only economic prosperity has kept us in check,remove the "panem et circens" from the equation and we might have problems on our hands yet again.I hope that time will proove me wrong.


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## Desert Fox

Jungibaaz said:


> With the economic decline of Europe, more of this is to be expected.
> No matter which case you study, increasing economic problems in country create social unrest.
> 
> Now here, people look for someone to blame, common man faces unemployment.
> All it takes is that one man to say 'it's those immigrants taking our jobs', and there you have it.



Blaming someone for taking your job is one thing. But them we must look at the other side (the immigrants) who give others reasons to hate them.

Example: selling drugs, pimping White girls, raping and molesting White girls, forming gangs and jumping Whites, establishing no-go-zones, enforcing Shariah within a state, cordoning off neighborhood to certain people based on their religious faith, rioting and burning stores, cars, etc, and finally demanding that Europe be turned into a "Islamic" state similar to what the Middle East is.


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## flamer84

Hyperion said:


> Well, this time I don't have any concerns.........we in the "rest" of the world are armed "to-the-teeth".... at-least you ain't gonna come our way...



Can't speak for others,but romanians have some old MIG 21'S,we just bought some 12 old F16's,i don't imagine us gunning other countries very soon.

Also,we won't invade others ,we will be fighting ourselves and sucker others into taking sides.The victorious european side will clasify the loosers as "true villains" and so on.

I laughed at the nobel prize beeing given to the EU,it's like :"Hey,you guys haven't slaughtered a quarter of your population and destroyed 90% percent of your infrastructure in the last 50 years.Here,have a cookie."

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## Desert Fox

AUz said:


> I said there is no "unified" Western Culture..well, probably I forgot to write the word but I had this discussion many times on this forum before...
> 
> There is no "Western Civilization" ... just as there is no "Islamic Civilization" ...There are Germans, French, Americans, Romanians etc..but they are NOT a part of one single 'civilization'.
> 
> If you are well-versed in history, then you would know that all these terms like "Civilization" , "Culture" arose around 18th-19th century (used mostly by French writers) in order to justify colonialism...
> 
> Early Muslim writers did not use terms like "Islamic Civilization" BUT it were Europeans who came with these terms..so that a clear distinction can be made between 'civilized' us vs 'uncivilized' them...
> 
> A girl living in America barely as anything in common with a girl living in Romania (may be color and religion are same, thats it)..How can they both be members of same 'civilization'?
> 
> In this regard, I and some Egyptian dude are a part of same 'civilization' since we are both brown and Muslim...but that is wrong.
> 
> Similarly, there is no one "Western Civilization" ... There is French Civilization, Anglo-Saxon may be, and so on...
> 
> PS. Whitemanburden is a troll and most say utterly ignorant things...



Perhaps this is your view. Not everyone will necessarily agree with this.

In your case, on paper, one might not see the distinction of civilizations. However, from my personal experience, there is a big difference, or shall is say there are big differences by way of prevalent thoughts, or mentalities to be exact.


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## Hyperion

Mate, they are all fire-crackers.... only countries with nuclear umbrella will be safe. Which means.....

1. US
2. Russia
3. China
4. France
5. UK >>>>>> No because all launch systems are leased from the Yanks.
6. Israel
7. India
8. Pakistan

Rest of the world? Fair game.... 

You seem to be nice guy, you are most welcome in Pakistan... 



flamer84 said:


> Can't speak for others,but romanians have some old MIG 21'S,we just bought some 12 old F16's,i don't imagine us gunning other countries very soon.

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## Jungibaaz

Desert Fox said:


> Blaming someone for taking your job is one thing. But them we must look at the other side (the immigrants) who give others reasons to hate them.
> 
> Example: selling drugs, pimping White girls, raping and molesting White girls, forming gangs and jumping Whites, establishing no-go-zones, enforcing Shariah within a state, cordoning off neighborhood to certain people based on their religious faith, rioting and burning stores, cars, etc, and finally demanding that Europe be turned into a "Islamic" state similar to what the Middle East is.



Granted. 
But, you're missing I'm trying to make. Economic misery always, always correlates with nationalism and civil unrest.
Now take the Poles, these guys here are blamed for none of the above, rather blamed for 'taking all our jobs' and part of the reason why here in the UK parties like Farage's UKIP have grown popular, blame sells. 

Besides, where were these nationalistic feelings before the credit crunch. 7/7 bombings were a massive cue to far right groups, and it did aid them. Another jump came about after the economic misery and migration from Eastern Europe.



flamer84 said:


> Some of them really don't help their cause either with the rioting,demands for cultural changes.Granted,they are not the majority but they'll always be in the spotlight.



True. Multiculturalism in many areas has failed and especially among some immigrant communities rather than others. 
But, economic misery, paranoia from the war on terror and immigrants behaving badly are all part of the perfect storm.

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## AUz

Hyperion said:


> Well, this time I don't have any concerns.........we in the "rest" of the world are armed "to-the-teeth".... at-least you ain't gonna come our way...



Physical Colonialism is less brutal to a people than neo-colonialism.

Rich nations still loot poor nations, exploit them, control them, manipulate them, and harm them to the core....and most dangerous part is...majority of people residing in these lands don't even know that a neo-colonial order has been imposed over them!

In the time of physical colonialism, masses atleast knew that they were under others' rule...

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## Desert Fox

Jungibaaz said:


> Granted.
> But, you're missing I'm trying to make. Economic misery always, always correlates with nationalism and civil unrest.
> Now take the Poles, these guys here are blamed for none of the above, rather blamed for 'taking all our jobs' and part of the reason why here in the UK parties like Farage's UKIP have grown popular, blame sells.
> 
> Besides, where were these nationalistic feelings before the credit crunch. 7/7 bombings were a massive cue to far right groups, and it did aid them. Another jump came about after the economic misery and migration from Eastern Europe.



Of course, i don't disagree with you here. Xenophobia might play a big part in the blame game. But if the Muslims and other immigrants didn't give further fuel for the fire, i'm sure these voices who blame won't have such a massive following.

After the beheading of the soldier, the anti-immigration sentiments have drastically increased. 

The problem lies in the fact that with so many people of different views, beliefs, colors, and nationalities living in the same place, there are bound to be clashes, unless one side makes compromises, which never happens. Its inevitable.

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## flamer84

Jungibaaz said:


> Granted.
> But, you're missing I'm trying to make. Economic misery always, always correlates with nationalism and civil unrest.
> Now take the Poles, these guys here are blamed for none of the above, rather blamed for 'taking all our jobs' and part of the reason why here in the UK parties like Farage's UKIP have grown popular, blame sells.
> 
> Besides, where were these nationalistic feelings before the credit crunch. 7/7 bombings were a massive cue to far right groups, and it did aid them. Another jump came about after the economic misery and migration from Eastern Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> True. Multiculturalism in many areas has failed and especially among some immigrant communities rather than others.
> But, economic misery, paranoia from the war on terror and immigrants behaving badly are all part of the perfect storm.



Exactly what I believe ,it's all beeing build up for the night in shiny armour to swoop in and save us from radicals ,rioters and chaos.Ofcourse,there will be a small price to pay:individual freedoms....Germany 1933 2.0

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## flamer84

...double post


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## -SINAN-

@WhiteMansBurden

My final thoughts are;

I think you are racist and I don't like racism at all. But also you seem that you just want to live with your folks and how can relate with you ? I mean, i live in Ankara/Turkey, there are only Turks here, i don't see non-Turks. But you are even working with the people who don't belong to your race. So before experiencing the same thing, i shouldn't judge you.

Another issue you don't want anyone than white people. I think, i may get you a little bit. While establishing Turkey we kicked out Greeks and Armenians, they are making so much fuss today, i can't imagine what would they do today if they were still living in Turkey. Secondly we didn't kicked Kurds out and we are still dealing with Ethnic Terrorism for 30 years. I'm wondering what if we kicked out all the Kurds back than. Turkey would be surely a much more prosperous place.


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## AUz

Desert Fox said:


> Perhaps this is your view. Not everyone will necessarily agree with this.
> 
> In your case, on paper, one might not see the distinction of civilizations. However, from my personal experience, there is a big difference, or shall is say there are big differences by way of prevalent thoughts, or mentalities to be exact.



Explain.

This is not my view but the view of every sophisticated student of history.

The very happy, cute, romantic 'Western civilization' that you see today is not even hundred years old. Before that, so called people of "western civilization" were butchering, killing, looting, competing, murdering, harming, invading each other for CENTURIES!

French aligned themselves with Ottomans against Spanish Empire..and so on.

Its kinda like saying "Persia and Saudi Arabia are both part of one civilization (Islamic Civilization)" ...It might sound all good and dandy, but it is just not correct.

Also, terms like "culture" and "civilization" has no value or meaning to it. People always want to align themselves to something bigger than them, and hence masses like the terms like "culture", "civilization" , "Ummah" etc...

Just like in case of 'Islamic Civilization', there exists huge differences among nations/peoples of so-called "Western Civilization" ...

The reason you don't see chaos in so-called 'Western Civilization' is due to the presence of one, central force (United States). In the absence of one, most powerful central force, Europeans would've been competing with each other for resources, influence, and domination (kinda like how "Muslims" are doing for past century or so, after the central force of 'Islamic Civilization' (The Ottomans) fell.. )

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## Jungibaaz

Desert Fox said:


> Of course, i don't disagree with you here. Xenophobia might play a big part in the blame game. But if the Muslims and other immigrants didn't give further fuel for the fire, i'm sure these voices who blame won't have such a massive following.
> 
> After the beheading of the soldier, the anti-immigration sentiments have drastically increased.
> 
> The problem lies in the fact that with so many people of different views, beliefs, colors, and nationalities living in the same place, there are bound to be clashes, unless one side makes compromises, which never happens. Its inevitable.



It is inevitable. But as a community, Muslims, especially Pakistanis stick out like sore thumbs. 
No disrespect to some expats I know. But I've come across some very ill-mannered conservatives. 
They hate living here, but they enjoy the benefits they receive, they refuse to work and demand state funded privileges as if it were their God given right. I've come across Pakistanis who don't even bother learning the slightest bit of English, I mean, these guys can barely spell common nouns in English, their communication skills limited to minor conversational phrases. And then comes the inwards behavior of our communities. Then there's cultural barriers, clear lines for voluntary segregation. Then things like terrorism, Shariah zones, radical clerics, grooming cases and also Burqa (which I may add is the definition of what is considered alien in the West).

We are an inviting target and we bought a lot of it on ourselves.

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## Desert Fox

WhiteMansBurden said:


> I don't believe in a final solution, nor am I a neo-NAZI. I guess those two things we can agree on. Hitler pretty much thought of Slavs as a different species, something which has been shown to be clearly false by modern genetic sequencing techniques.



There was no final solution. The one that was contemplated was the Madagascar Plan, which was dropped after America got involved.

Regarding Hitler's views on the Slavs as being sub-humans; i'm not sure why he would praise the Ukrainian volunteers of the SS.

But realistically speaking, and this is a historically recorded fact; the Soviet Red Army and the NKVD were butchering, plundering, looting, raping, and slaughtering on their way to Berlin.

Also, when the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in June 1941, they saw first hand the barbarity and savagery of the Red Army, NKVD, the Partisans, and the Soviet Stalinist Regime which had imposed tyranny on its own population.

Before June 22nd, 1941 (the date of the German invasion), the Soviet Regime had killed between 19,000,000 to 20,000,000 of its own people in peace time. This was confirmed by later Soviet regimes after Stalin's death.

The Germans were simply afraid that had they not invaded the Soviet Union, Stalin's armies, who were preparing to invade Germany and Europe, would have imposed the same savagery, backwardness, and subhumanity on their age old Europe.


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## p(-)0ENiX

Desert Fox said:


> I'm good Brother, how are you?



I am fine thanks. I have been busy with work & studies alongside a few personal problems that I am still resolving. Anyway, has the forum changed at all since my last visit?


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## Desert Fox

Jungibaaz said:


> It is inevitable. But as a community, Muslims, especially Pakistanis stick out like sore thumbs.
> No disrespect to some expats I know. But I've come across some very ill-mannered conservatives.
> They hate living here, but they enjoy the benefits they receive, they refuse to work and demand state funded privileges as if it were their God given right. I've come across Pakistanis who don't even bother learning the slightest bit of English, I mean, these guys can barely spell common nouns in English, their communication skills limited to minor conversational phrases. And then comes the inwards behavior of our communities. Then there's cultural barriers, clear lines for voluntary segregation. Then things like terrorism, Shariah zones, radical clerics, grooming cases and also Burqa (which I may add is the definition of what is considered alien in the West).
> 
> We are an inviting target and we bought a lot of it on ourselves.



I have experienced the same with some Pakistani expats here as well. But not on a large scale, perhaps because the Pakistani community here isn't as large as the one in Europe.

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## Shabaz Sharif

The reason USA will be taken over by Hispanics is anyone born there is grated citizenship even if parents are illegals. Thats not the case in Europe. So Europe will continue to be white majority because they can control inmigration. I think websites like stormfront are disgrace, the members there are pathetic. Wanting to preserve whites is one thing but many there go one step further start talking about deporting or down right final solution.

Personaly i believe Hitler was biggest culprit, not only his actions killed millions of whites but also made west more liberal. And because of that any white who is proud of himself is considered racist. Maybe thats another reason stormfront is full of idiots, and because of that vast majority of whites dont want to associate themselfs with neo nazis even if they believe in cause.

USA is lost case, but Europe just need to limit inmigration which they are doing anyway.


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## -SINAN-

Desert Fox said:


> Example: selling drugs, pimping White girls, raping and molesting White girls, forming gangs and jumping Whites, establishing no-go-zones, *enforcing Shariah within a state, cordoning off neighborhood to certain people based on their religious faith,* rioting and burning stores, cars, etc, and finally demanding that Europe be turned into a "Islamic" state similar to what the Middle East is.



I didn't believed this stuff once. But my friends living in Europe said this was true and done mostly by north-african people. What i fail to understand, how they are allowed to do this. If these guys came in Turkey and show the same behaviour...... the only duty of the police would be saving these people from the hands of the native Turks. I really don't understand.

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## Desert Fox

p(-)0ENiX said:


> I am fine thanks. I have been busy with work & studies alongside a few personal problems that I am still resolving. Anyway, has the forum changed at all since my last visit?



Same here, been busy too. Trying to limit my participation on this forum since it does take up more than necessary time.

Well, the forum really hasn't changed much actually. At least i haven't noticed any considerable changes. Besides a few tweaks here and there everything else seems to be the same.

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## Desert Fox

Sinan said:


> I didn't believed this stuff once. But my friends living in Europe said this was true and done mostly by north-african people. What i fail to understand, how they are allowed to do this. *If these guys came in Turkey and show the same behaviour...... the only duty of the police would be saving these people from the hands of the native Turks. I really don't understand.*



Exactly! Even the GCC Arabs would behead or flog anyone who tried to impose their own religious laws on the native population.

The problem is White guilt, which has been enforced by the Liberal Marxist Governments of the European countries along with the very loose immigration laws.

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## -SINAN-

Desert Fox said:


> Exactly! Even the GCC Arabs would behead or flog anyone who tried to impose their own religious laws on the native population.
> 
> The problem is White guilt, which has been enforced by the Liberal Marxist Governments of the European countries along with the very loose immigration laws.



 Sir, I'm not talking about laws. Here watch the video as the Guy in the video, tried to talk about Kurdish rights or something like that.


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## flamer84

AUz said:


> Explain.
> 
> This is not my view but the view of every sophisticated student of history.
> 
> The very happy, cute, romantic 'Western civilization' that you see today is not even hundred years old. Before that, so called people of "western civilization" were butchering, killing, looting, competing, murdering, harming, invading each other for CENTURIES!
> 
> French aligned themselves with Ottomans against Spanish Empire..and so on.
> 
> Its kinda like saying "Persia and Saudi Arabia are both part of one civilization (Islamic Civilization)" ...It might sound all good and dandy, but it is just not correct.
> 
> Also, terms like "culture" and "civilization" has no value or meaning to it. People always want to align themselves to something bigger than them, and hence masses like the terms like "culture", "civilization" , "Ummah" etc...
> 
> Just like in case of 'Islamic Civilization', there exists huge differences among nations/peoples of so-called "Western Civilization" ...
> 
> The reason you don't see chaos in so-called 'Western Civilization' is due to the presence of one, central force (United States). In the absence of one, most powerful central force, Europeans would've been competing with each other for resources, influence, and domination (kinda like how "Muslims" are doing for past century or so, after the central force of 'Islamic Civilization' (The Ottomans) fell.. )



I think that in the end Europe will stick together because we are beginning to see that somehow the rest of the world seems to colectively hate us,you can't take a turn without someone screaming "evil whites" at you,after the fall of comunism for example the isolated eastern europeans somehow realised that they are hated for beeing white and living in Europe,nevermind that we never had colonies or,like many asian/african countries we've constantly fought juggernauts for our freedom,we're white,we're christian...we're evil.Realising that the smaller european countries(even Germany with 80 mil people is small compared to Pakistan for ex) can't compete with emerging forces we're practically forced to stick together.

Even here i see many people screaming that europeans should pay for what they've done in history,why don't they go to Mongolia and make them pay for what they did to Baghdad 800 years ago?

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## Desert Fox

@flamer84

Here are the sources to back up my statements:

Stalin's Secret War


> In ground breaking book entitles "Stalin's Secret War," Russian Historian Nikolai Tolstoy demonstrates that a majority of the Soviet citizens killed during the war were not victim of Nazi forces but were, in fact, the victims of Stalin and his NKVD henchmen in his merciless campaign of ferocious violence and mass murder against his own people to keep them subdued and subservient to Communist rule. _Charles Luttons review of Stalin's Secret War_



Book Review: CHARLES LUTTON: Stalin's War: Victims and Accomplices: STALIN'S SECRET WAR by Nikolai Tolstoy



And here is the account of the Polish ambassador to Washington:



> Count Jerzy Potocki, the Polish Ambassador in Washington, in a report to the Polish Foreign Office in January 1939, is quoted approvingly by the highly respected British military historian Major-General JFC Fuller. Concerning public opinion in America he says *"Above all, propaganda here is entirely in Jewish hands&#8230;when bearing public ignorance in mind, their propaganda is so effective that people have no real knowledge of the true state of affairs in Europe&#8230; It is interesting to observe that in this carefully thought-out campaign&#8230; no reference at all is made to Soviet Russia. If that country is mentioned, it is referred to in a friendly manner and people are given the impression that Soviet Russia is part of the democratic group of countries&#8230; Jewry was able not only to establish a dangerous centre in the New World for the dissemination of hatred and enmity, but it also succeeded in dividing the world into two warlike camps&#8230;President Roosevelt has been given the power.. to create huge reserves in armaments for a future war which the Jews are deliberately heading for."* _(Fuller, JFC: The Decisive Battles of the Western World vol 3 pp 372-374.)_




And how Germans treated Polish military POW's:

German POW camp photos dispel myths

Photos Look Inside Nazi Prisoner of War Camp for Polish Officers - SPIEGEL ONLINE

While this is what Churchill and Roosevelt's Soviet Allies did to the Polish POW's on their side of the border:

Katyn Forest Massacre by NKVD Communist Zionists (english subtitles) - YouTube

Katyn massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Desert Fox

flamer84 said:


> I think that in the end Europe will stick together because we are beginning to see that somehow the rest of the world seems to colectively hate us,you can't take a turn without someone screaming "evil whites" at you,after the fall of comunism for example the isolated eastern europeans somehow realised that they are hated for beeing white and living in Europe,nevermind that we never had colonies or,like many asian/african countries we've constantly fought juggernauts for our freedom,we're white,we're christian...we're evil.Realising that the smaller european countries(even Germany with 80 mil people is small compared to Pakistan for ex) can't compete with emerging forces we're practically forced to stick together.
> 
> *Even here i see many people screaming that europeans should pay for what they've done in history,why don't they go to Mongolia and make them pay for what they did to Baghdad 800 years ago?*



Because the liberal marxist media doesn't constantly bring up Mongol bashing and refreshing the minds of the masses of the brutality committed by Mongol hordes, similarly it doesn't bring the Semetic involvement and origins of the African slave trade.

Media is very powerful.

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## Jungibaaz

Desert Fox said:


> I have experienced the same with some Pakistani expats here as well. But not on a large scale, perhaps because the Pakistani community here isn't as large as the one in Europe.



My experiences with the North American Pakistani community has been far better, they seem far better integrated within the rest of society. Same for the ones in Germany, however, here in the UK we have the worst cases.
Perhaps not in my area in West London, but in East London, Luton, Rochdale, Bradford, Manchester and Birmingham.

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## p(-)0ENiX

flamer84 said:


> Even here i see many people screaming that europeans should pay for what they've done in history,why don't they go to Mongolia and make them pay for what they did to Baghdad 800 years ago?



Simple, some failures require someone else to blame for their own failings in order to shift blame away from themselves. This applies to individuals, & it applies to nations & ethnicities too. 

Opportunistic people will always find ways to benefit from others. For example; calling for reparations for slavery is just an easy method to exploit another race's guilt for what I am assuming is primarily going to be financial gain. 

Why don't they blame Mongolia? The simplest answer is; the predator knows its prey.


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## olcayto

Sinan said:


> I didn't believed this stuff once. But my friends living in Europe said this was true and done mostly by north-african people. What i fail to understand, how they are allowed to do this. If these guys came in Turkey and show the same behaviour...... the only duty of the police would be saving these people from the hands of the native Turks. I really don't understand.



There's isn't really much to be surprised of. 

You're talking about people that use their right in a democratic and free country. 
Countries like these can't even do anything against organizations, that harbour, encourage and even teach to be a pedophile. 

I swear to god, I even saw a man telling on national television that he molested a 12 years old boy and that it even went to a extent how he did molest him.

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## NP-complete

imho rise of the far right is what europe needs. it will actually create political balance. will speed up european integration as well. which is important because a counter-weight to US is required on world stage. EU and China can bring balance to global affairs.


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## Arya Desa

Why not view an individual as an individual instead of grouping people under banners? What I took from this was one person raped another person.


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## vostok

In Ukraine ultra-nationalist party "Svoboda" (freedom) even get into the Parliament (Verkhovna Rada) and took 10% of voices. Their electorat - Western Ukrainians. 
They hate Russians, Polish, Jewish, Romanian.
Their fothers and grandfothers fought on Nazi side against Red Army.
Other Ukrainians do not consider them as part of the Ukrainian people (they were under Polish and Austrian for many centuries). They are not even Orthodox. 
If the bastards will come to power Civil War will start and Ukraine will be devided.


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## flamer84

Jungibaaz said:


> My experiences with the North American Pakistani community has been far better, they seem far better integrated within the rest of society. Same for the ones in Germany, however, here in the UK we have the worst cases.
> Perhaps not in my area in West London, but in East London, Luton, Rochdale, Bradford, Manchester and Birmingham.




That's because the americans as opposed to the british have stricter immigration policies.
 @Desert Fox

I'm not one of those guys who think that WW2 was just evil nazis against good nations,it was a struggle for power between 2 blocs and the winners villified the loosers.I need no education in soviet barbarity as my country was at the receiving end of their actions and i know that people seem to forget that at the beginning of WW2 the USSR invaded Poland alongside nazi Germany or that the allies basically sold other european nations to the russians to have their peace of mind.Nor am I oblivious to allied war crimes like the bombing of Dresden or the infamous soviet Katyn massacre,rape of Germany and many others.That beeing sad,i don't find the nazis particularly pleasant either,they were just as bad as the soviets or english colonists,thought of themselves as superior to others and acted accordingly.

Going back to the immigration issue,the reason it is failing is because we've been doing this the wrong way,you can teleport Mogadishu over night next to Stockolm only to be shocked that they don't integrate.

As to white guilt ,well,this is a stupid concept some people seem to have,the western european whites weren't the only conquerors in history but they seem to get all the flak nowadays,i really don't know why don't they dismiss these silly accusations.Yes they robed,yes they conquered and enslaved people but who didn't on this planet? The people who are moaning have inferiority complexes and secretly regret that it wasn't their nation doing the conquering,that's why personally i don't like to dwell on the past,i don't moan about evil turks rulling and abusing us for 400 years(i ***** about the russians because they continue to interfere in my country's business and because of that 2 romanian nations are still separated) ,conquerors did only what came naturally to them.Time for the conquered to move on with life.

Now,the "jewish problem".I don't particularly like jews but if you think about it they're just another nation trying to survive in this shark eat shark world.Can we blame them just because they are succesful? As a romanian saying goes :"Nu e prost ala care cere,prost e ala care da.-It's not a fool the one who asks,the fool is the one who gives."

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## flamer84

senheiser said:


> So in your opinion an ethnic group that has an opinion should be dragged into the street and be shot like dogs? that sounds much more like nazism and racism to me.
> 
> How Whites Took Over America - YouTube
> 
> check this out to understand how Europeans feel.



This video is pure win.


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## Tshering22

Desert Fox said:


> *'This isn't the Britain we fought for,' say the Veterans of WWII*
> 
> 
> By Tony Rennell
> UPDATED: 17:55 EST, 21 November 2009
> 
> Sarah Robinson was just a teenager when World War II broke out.
> 
> She endured the Blitz, watching for fires during Luftwaffe air raids armed with a bucket of sand.
> 
> Often she would walk ten miles home from work in the blackout, with bombs falling around her.
> 
> As soon as she turned 18, she joined the Royal Navy to do her bit for the war effort.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hers was a small part in a huge, history-making enterprise, and her contribution epitomises her generation's sense of service and sacrifice.
> 
> Nearly 400,000 Britons died. Millions more were scarred by the experience, physically and mentally.
> *
> But was it worth it? Her answer - and the answer of many of her contemporaries, now in their 80s and 90s - is a resounding No.*
> 
> *They despise what has become of the Britain they once fought to save. It's not our country any more, they say, in sorrow and anger.*
> 
> *Sarah harks back to the days when 'people kept the laws and were polite and courteous. We didn't have much money, but we were contented and happy.*
> *
> 'People whistled and sang. There was still the United Kingdom, our country, which we had fought for, our freedom, democracy. But where is it now?!'*
> 
> 
> 
> The feelings of Sarah and others from this most selfless generation about the modern world have been recorded by a Tyneside writer, 33-year-old Nicholas Pringle.
> 
> Curious about his grandmother's generation and what they did in the war, he decided three years ago to send letters to local newspapers across the country asking for those who lived through the war to write to him with their experiences.
> 
> He rounded off his request with this question: 'Are you happy with how your country has turned out? What do you think your fallen comrades would have made of life in 21st-century Britain?'
> 
> *What is extraordinary about the 150 replies he received, which he has now published as a book, is their vehement insistence that those who made the ultimate sacrifice in the war would now be turning in their graves.*
> 
> There is the occasional bright spot - one veteran describes Britain as 'still the best country in the world' - but the overall tone is one of profound disillusionment.
> 
> *'I sing no song for the once-proud country that spawned me,' wrote a sailor who fought the Japanese in the Far East, 'and I wonder why I ever tried.'*
> 
> *'My patriotism has gone out of the window,' said another ex-serviceman.*
> 
> In the Mail this week, Gordon Brown wrote about 'our debt of dignity to the war generation'.
> *
> But the truth that emerges from these letters is that the survivors of that war generation have nothing but contempt for his government.*
> 
> They feel, in a word that leaps out time and time again, 'betrayed'.
> 
> New Labour, said one ex-commando who took part in the disastrous Dieppe raid in which 4,000 men were lost, was 'more of a shambles than some of the actions I was in during the war, and that's saying something!'
> 
> He added: *'Those comrades of mine who never made it back would be appalled if they could see the world as it is today.
> *
> *'They would wonder what happened to the Brave New World they fought so damned hard for.'*
> 
> Nor can David Cameron take any comfort from the elderly.
> 
> *His 'hug a hoodie' advice was scorned by a generation of brave men and women now too scared, they say, to leave their homes at night.
> *
> *Immigration tops the list of complaints.*
> 
> *'This Land of Hope and Glory is just a land of yobs and drunks'*
> 
> *'People come here, get everything they ask, for free, laughing at our expense,' was a typical observation.*
> 
> *'We old people struggle on pensions, not knowing how to make ends meet. If I had my time again, would we fight as before? Need you ask?'*
> 
> 
> *
> Many writers are bewildered and overwhelmed by a multicultural Britain that, they say bitterly, they were never consulted about nor feel comfortable with.*
> 
> *'Our country has been given away to foreigners while we, the generation who fought for freedom, are having to sell our homes for care and are being refused medical services because incomers come first.'*
> 
> Her words may be offensive to many - and rightly so - but Sarah Robinson defiantly states: 'We are affronted by the appearance of Muslim and Sikh costumes on our streets.'
> 
> *But then political correctness is another thing they take strong issue with, along with politicians generally - 'liars, incompetents and self-aggrandising charlatans' (with the revealing exception of Enoch Powell).*
> 
> *The loss of British sovereignty to the European Union caused almost as much distress. 'Nearly all veterans want Britain to leave the EU,' wrote one.*
> 
> Frank, a merchant navy sailor, thought of those who gave their lives 'for King and country', only for Britain to become 'an offshore island of a Europe where France and Germany hold sway. Ironic, isn't it?'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a group, they feel furious at not being able to speak their minds.
> 
> They see the lack of debate and the damning of dissenters as racists or Little Englanders as deeply upsetting affronts to freedom of speech.
> 
> *'Our British culture is draining away at an ever increasing pace,' wrote an ex-Durham Light Infantryman, 'and we are almost forbidden to make any comment.'*
> 
> A widow from Solihull blamed the Thatcher years 'when we started to lose all our industry and profit became the only aim in life'.
> 
> *Her husband, a veteran of Dunkirk and Burma, died a disappointed man, believing that his seven years in the Army were wasted.*
> 
> *'It is 18 years since I lost him and as I look around parts of Birmingham today you would never know you were in England,' she wrote.*
> 
> 'He would have hated it. He also disliked the immoral way things are going. I don't think people are really happy now, for all the modern, easy-living conveniences.
> 
> 'I disagree with same-sex marriages, schoolgirl mothers, rubbish TV programmes, so-called celebrities and, most of all, unlimited immigration.
> 
> *'I am very unhappy about the way this country is being transformed. I go nowhere after dark. I don't even answer my doorbell then.'*
> 
> A Desert Rat who battled his way through El Alamein, Sicily, Italy and Greece was in despair.
> 
> 'This is not the country I fought for. Political correctness, lack of discipline, compensation madness, uncontrolled immigration - the "do-gooders" have a lot to answer for.
> *
> 'If you see youngsters doing something they shouldn't and you say anything, you just get a mouthful of foul language.'*
> 
> Undoubtedly, some of the complaints are 'grumpy old man' gripes, as the veterans themselves recognise - from chewing gum on pavements and motorists using mobile phones to the march of computerisation ('why can't I just go to the station and buy a railway ticket?') and the dearth of pop music tunes you can hum.
> 
> But it is the fundamental change in society's values which they find hardest to come to terms with.
> 
> Bring back birching and hanging, the sanctions they grew up with, they say. Put more bobbies back on the beat.
> 
> *'We were rigidly taught good manners and respect for older people,' said a wartime WAAF, 'but the nanny state has ruined all that. Television programmes are full of violence and obscene language.*
> 
> *This Land of Hope and Glory is in reality a land of yobs, drug addicts, drunkard youths and teenage mothers who think they are owed all for nothing.'*
> 
> Aged 85, she has little wish to go on living.
> 
> For others, the strength of character that got them through the war is still helping them to survive the disappointments of peacetime.
> 
> A crofter's son from Scotland who served on the Arctic convoys taking supplies to Russia found the immediate post-war years hard.
> 
> 
> 
> 'In those days we had no welfare support from any source. It was as though we had served our country to the full and were then forgotten.
> 
> 'However, we were very resilient and determined to make a go of it, and many of us, including myself, succeeded.
> 
> 'How times have changed now, with the countless many clamouring to get welfare benefits for the asking.'
> 
> A medic who made it through Dunkirk and D-Day thought the fallen would be appalled by the lack of manners in modern life and the worship of celebrities, plus 'the patent dishonesty of politicians'.
> 
> Another common issue was their bemusement at the idea anyone could live in constant debt.
> 
> 'We were brought up to believe that if you hadn't the money, you waited till you had!' one wrote.
> 
> However, this particular man was unusual among the 150 respondents in believing that there were many pluses to modern life.
> 
> He even had a good word to say about the European Union and felt it would appeal to the fallen 'if only for maintaining the peace in Europe over the past 60 years or so'.
> 
> He praised the breaking down of class barriers in Britain compared with the years when he was young and 'infinitely' increased prosperity.
> 
> 'More clothes, cars, holidays abroad, home ownership. As a young teacher in the Fifties I had one suit (Army issue) and the luxury of a sports jacket and flannels at the weekend.
> 
> 'Education has made vast progress. In my early days I taught classes of 50. Only five per cent of children went on to further education compared with over 40 per cent today.
> 
> 'The emancipation of women has also been a huge plus, with the introduction of the Pill a large contributor. Before the war, women teachers were dismissed as soon as they married.'
> 
> A Land Girl who laboured on farms in Devon during the war agreed that 'we have so much to be grateful for.
> 
> 'So much progress has been made to transform the standard of living since the war.'
> 
> But she could not help asking whether people were any happier.
> 
> *She bemoaned the advent of the Pill and the collapse of sexual morality. 'In my day, drugs were unknown, families remained together, divorce was a rarity and children felt secure.*
> 
> 'Were our sacrifices made so hooligans may run wild? And aggressive behaviour be accepted as the norm by TV interviewers and society in general?'
> 
> A captain with a Military Cross for valour under fire thought Britain was still the best country in the world.
> 
> *The 'occasional' sight of parents and nicely dressed children gave an otherwise gloomy veteran of the Italian campaign a sense that 'what we did all those years ago was not for nothing'.*
> 
> A grandmother, the widow of a Royal Marine who took part in the D-Day landings, felt the National Health Service had descended into chaos but was grateful for a pensioner's free television licence, 'which brings art, travel and animals into my home', and being able to text her grandchildren.
> 
> Just being alive was a bonus. *'Although I hate what is happening to our country, I am so happy to be here, grumbling, but remembering better, happier days,' she wrote.*
> 
> *But one of the bitterest complaints of the veterans was that their trenchant views on many of the matters aired here were constantly ignored by those in authority.*
> 
> *Their letters of complaint to councillors and MPs went unanswered.
> 
> It was as if they didn't matter, except when wheeled out for the rituals of Remembrance Day.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Why do so many of the British public confuse sentimentality with genuine concern for others?' asked one letter-writer.
> 
> But this was the generation honoured in Remembrance services last weekend, showered with gratitude and teary-eyed sentiments as their dwindling ranks marched unsteadily past the Cenotaph and other war memorials throughout the UK.
> 
> The overall impression any reader of the letters gets is that this generation feel unheard, unwanted and unimportant.
> 
> This remarkable collection of their thoughts should give us pause for reflection.
> 
> They may be deemed beyond their sell-by date (and many of their views may seem unacceptable, flouting every sort of 'ism' imaginable) but, by their deeds of 60-plus years ago, they have won the right to be listened to and their disillusionment noted with respect.
> 
> *In one letter in this collection, an RAF mechanic quoted a poem about comrades who fell in battle: 'I mourned them then, But now surviving in a world, Indifferent to their hopes and dreams, I grieve more for the living.'*
> 
>  The Unknown Warriors by Nicholas Pringle, £11.69. For copies, go to the website The Unknown Warriors, a WWII non fiction history book in paperback and ebook for kindle etc format.



These soldiers echo the same emotions patriotic Indian soldiers would want to speak from the good old yester years.

India is also sadly going this way: not a nanny state, but instead an apologist, enemy-appeasing, self-ashamed, weak state. 

Those heroes from the wars of 65 and 71 will also say the same things if such a trend continues.

We must see what these people are talking about. We are becoming just apes of blind western-ism.



vostok said:


> In Ukraine ultra-nationalist party "Svoboda" (freedom) even get into the Parliament (Verkhovna Rada) and took 10% of voices. Their electorat - Western Ukrainians.
> They hate Russians, Polish, Jewish, Romanian.
> Their fothers and grandfothers fought on Nazi side against Red Army.
> Other Ukrainians do not consider them as part of the Ukrainian people (they were under Polish and Austrian for many centuries). They are not even Orthodox.
> If the bastards will come to power Civil War will start and Ukraine will be devided.



So what exactly does the right wing want?

Ukraine was at its peak under USSR with many technological hubs located within the Ukrainian SSR. 

However, nanny state mentality is proving to be destructive in Europe while migrations from hostile and primitive countries continue into European apologetic political systems.

This will really take the European continent to the brink of civil wars all across.

Ukraine is feeling the heat with hardly any economic immigrants.

Imagine what would be going through the minds of British, French, Germans and Russians who have a significant immigrant population and that too a large portion of it is on benefits?


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## vostok

Tshering22 said:


> So what exactly does the right wing want?
> 
> Ukraine was at its peak under USSR with many technological hubs located within the Ukrainian SSR.


They do not know what they want exactly. They want to ban Russian language and Russians themselves. They want absolute ukrainization of dozens of millions people in Ukraine that speek Russian.
They want to claim Nazi as a true heroes of Ukraine. They want rewright history. 
And in the end - they want to kill all non-Ukrainians (as they see Ukrainians).


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## Tshering22

Desert Fox said:


> Also, here's more sources:
> 
> 
> *Indonesian maid tortured in Saudi Arabia, another beaten to death*
> 
> BBC-Indonesian president condemns Saudi torture of maid
> 
> *Indonesians outraged by maids torture in Saudi Arabia*
> 
> Indonesian Maid Was Horribly Tortured, Yudhoyono
> 
> *Saudis consider maids as part of their furniture, a labor official once told me*
> 
> *Filipino maid in Saudi Arabia attacked with acid and stabbed to death*
> 
> *Saudi couple hammer 24 hot nails into their maid after she complained of heavy workload
> *
> 
> *Human Trafficking & Modern-day Slavery in Saudi Arabia*
> 
> ]*Saudis Import Slaves to America *
> 
> *Saudi Pinces' global prostitution rings and international child sex slave trade*



I am shocked and disgusted.

Knew that there was a slave problem, but never knew the nexus is so massive. 

Dirty pr*cks. How do they claim to have any religious or spiritual authority after remaining numb to such evil?

Sadly, trafficking rings are also present in our country that support the nexus created by scumbags like these and therefore our women and children become vulnerable.

*It is a shame on all the governments of South Asia. They should commit suicides en masse for letting their people suffer so dishonourably in front of the world.

In this area, no on is superior or better and all South Asian countries suck at protecting their people. 

Useless bunch of bloody bozos who are only good at looting a hard-working population.*


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## flamer84

I wonder who appointed individuals like this obnoxious lady to "help" us:

Barbara Lerner Spectre calls for destruction of Christian European ethnic societies - YouTube

Why isn't this witch "transforming" Israel?


----------



## East Asia United

It's an interesting topic.

I believe that if White countries want to stay White, it's none of my (or anyone else's) business.

One point though. If you invite a Pakistani, or a Brazilian, or a Mexican, or a Libyan, to share in the spoils of your country, do not blame them if they say yes.

If you are living in a country that is 3rd world and you're given a free pass to move to a Western country, don't blame them when they say yes and bring their entire family with them.

*THE BLAME LIES WITH YOU; YOU OPENED THE BORDER IN THE FIRST PLACE!*

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## vostok

East Asia United said:


> *THE BLAME LIES WITH YOU; YOU OPENED THE BORDER IN THE FIRST PLACE!*



You offer to close the borders?
But 90% of immigrants - illegal. They do it breaking the law.
May be Western Europeans must shoot them down?


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## East Asia United

vostok said:


> You offer to close the borders?
> But 90% of immigrants - illegal. They do it breaking the law.
> May be Western Europeans must shoot them down?



It's not my business.

All I'm saying is that, if you want your nations to be racially homogeneous, to have not had the problem with non-Whites living in your countries in the first place, you should not have been so stupid to let them in.

It's too late now. What are you going to do? Are you going to eliminate all non-Whites?

Also, 90% of European immigrants are not illegal. You pulled that factoid out your butt.


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## East Asia United

flamer84 said:


> I wonder who appointed individuals like this obnoxious lady to "help" us:
> 
> Barbara Lerner Spectre calls for destruction of Christian European ethnic societies - YouTube
> 
> Why isn't this witch "transforming" Israel?



Didn't you say earlier that you love immigration? Now you are saying you hate it? Boy, you Euros sure do change your minds quickly.


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## vostok

East Asia United said:


> It's not my business.
> 
> All I'm saying is that, if you want your nations to be racially homogeneous, to have not had the problem with non-Whites living in your countries in the first place, you should not have been so stupid to let them in.
> 
> It's too late now. What are you going to do? Are you going to eliminate all non-Whites?
> 
> Also, 90% of European immigrants are not illegal. You pulled that factoid out your butt.


There is one bike.
SOme people go in the bus in Germany. Among them - the Turks and one German old lady. Turks laugh and argue that they will change when they become the majority in Germany. The old woman suffered, endured, and then said:
"You know, before the war, there lived a lot of Jews."
The fact about 90% - is true. I don't count people who alredy has pasports or 2-3 generations of immigrants.


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## flamer84

East Asia United said:


> Didn't you say earlier that you love immigration? Now you are saying you hate it? Boy, you Euros sure do change your minds quickly.



I've said i have nothing against *controlled* immigration,what is happening now is an open gate policy for all and i certainly don't agree that others should force on us multiculturalism because "Europe must not remain a monolyth".It's not about what *we* want,if the politicians will give us a referendum,the next day the polls will close you'll see barbed wire and armed guards with orders to shoot at our borders.They live in their ivory towers and don't give 2 cents about what we want.:

"we need foreign workers cause our numbers are dwindling!"----25% of europeans are unemployed!!!!!

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## East Asia United

vostok said:


> There is one bike.
> SOme people go in the bus in Germany. Among them - the Turks and one German old lady. Turks laugh and argue that they will change when they become the majority in Germany. The old woman suffered, endured, and then said:
> "You know, before the war, there lived a lot of Jews."
> The fact about 90% - is true. I don't count people who alredy has pasports or 2-3 generations of immigrants.



How do people illegally immigrate from Turkey? Other than overstaying their visas, it's impossible. Turkey and Germany don't share a land border.

Where is your source for this? Most of the immigration is legal, and it's the fault of the Europeans who allowed liberalized immigration laws in the first place.


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## vostok

East Asia United said:


> How do people illegally immigrate from Turkey? Other than overstaying their visas, it's impossible. Turkey and Germany don't share a land border.
> 
> Where is your source for this? Most of the immigration is legal, and it's the fault of the Europeans who allowed liberalized immigration laws in the first place.


90% - such a quality of illegal workers come to Russia from Central Asia. I don't think numbers in West Europe are different. May be i say wrong - I mean they works illegaly.


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## p(-)0ENiX

I found this video on the Youtube channel of the publisher of "How Whites took over America". It's entertaining, & it makes an interesting point.

_Hitler returns from Argentina_ woot _& decides to make Israel multicultural........_


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## Wholegrain

vostok said:


> 90% - such a quality of illegal workers come to Russia from Central Asia. I don't think numbers in West Europe are different. May be i say wrong - I mean they works illegaly.



And Kavkazi Chechens and Dagestanis are citizens of Russia. You can't call them illegals like central asians.

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## Desert Fox

Jungibaaz said:


> My experiences with the North American Pakistani community has been far better, they seem far better integrated within the rest of society. Same for the ones in Germany, however, here in the UK we have the worst cases.
> Perhaps not in my area in West London, but in East London, Luton, Rochdale, Bradford, Manchester and Birmingham.



I haven't had the chance to meet any British Pakistanis thus far but from what other people tell me and from what i have read, if i compare between the British Pakistanis and American Pakistanis, then yes American Pakistanis are better off in comparison.

Perhaps its because the brits are less strict on immigrant populations? Whatever the case, the problem is irreversible.


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## -SINAN-

vostok said:


> There is one bike.
> SOme people go in the bus in Germany. Among them - the Turks and one German old lady. Turks laugh and argue that they will change when they become the majority in Germany. The old woman suffered, endured, and then said:
> "You know, before the war, there lived a lot of Jews."
> The fact about 90% - is true. I don't count people who alredy has pasports or 2-3 generations of immigrants.



The version i know about that story goes like this.

Two young Turkish boys take the bus in Germany. One said to other "Man there is lots of Turks here, maybe we should conquer this place." An old Germany lady hears the conversation, smiles and says "Years ago Jews said the same thing ". Boys are speechless.


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## Desert Fox

flamer84 said:


> That's because the americans as opposed to the british have stricter immigration policies.


I wouldn't be too sure of that. We have a growing number of illegals predominantly from Latin America and Liberals like Obama are easing the restrictions on these illegal immigrants in obtaining American citizenship.




flamer84 said:


> @Desert Fox
> 
> I'm not one of those guys who think that WW2 was just evil nazis against good nations,it was a struggle for power between 2 blocs and the winners villified the loosers.I need no education in soviet barbarity as my country was at the receiving end of their actions and i know that people seem to forget that at the beginning of WW2 the USSR invaded Poland alongside nazi Germany or that the allies basically sold other european nations to the russians to have their peace of mind.Nor am I oblivious to allied war crimes like the bombing of Dresden or the infamous soviet Katyn massacre,rape of Germany and many others.*That beeing sad,i don't find the nazis particularly pleasant either,they were just as bad as the soviets or english colonists,thought of themselves as superior to others and acted accordingly.*



The difference between the "Nazis" (for arguments sake i will go with this term), the Soviets, the British, French, and the Americans was that the "Nazis" were not killing anyone nor conquering non-German territory before 1939 (date of the start of WW2 in Europe).

Stalin was mass starving his own people (between 19-20 million died as a result), the French were oppressing and killing people in their own colonies, the British ruled 500,000,000 in their own colonies and subjugated millions through violent means, the Americans were killing Moros in the Philippines after annexing the former Spanish colony.

Meanwhile, Evil "Nazi" Hitler only wanted back the German territories that were taken from Germany after its defeat in WW1. And for wanting back the Danzig territory (which was 97% ethnic German populated) from Poland, Hitler and the "Nazis" are blamed for having aspirations to "take over the world".

So i don't see how Hitler was "just as bad" for having not killed millions of people while the World Wide Freedom Loving Democracies and their Communist buddies were butchering and starving people.

Out of all of the nations that participated in that war, i'd have to say that "Nazi" Germany was the more humane.


*Anyway, this link below is of my post from another thread and but it answers/refutes all of your misconceptions of "Nazi" Germany, including the "racist" allegations of the victorious side.*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/genera...history-never-before-seen-11.html#post4083036


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## -SINAN-

vostok said:


> 90% - such a quality of illegal workers come to Russia from Central Asia. I don't think numbers in West Europe are different. May be i say wrong - I mean they works illegally.



Turks gone to Germany in 1970's by the encourage of the German state. I would say %99 of them are legal.


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## Desert Fox

p(-)0ENiX said:


> I found this video on the Youtube channel of the publisher of "How Whites took over America". It's entertaining, & it makes an interesting point.
> 
> _Hitler returns from Argentina_ woot _& decides to make Israel multicultural........_



Good find, this goes along with the videos flamer84 posted:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/europe...onalism-rise-europe-russia-9.html#post4552484

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## -SINAN-

@East Asia United

I ask about this operation whenever i came across a Korean.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey-defence/239780-diary-turkish-soldier-korean-war.html

Do you have any info regarding this operation ?


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## Armstrong

Sinan said:


> The version i know about that story goes like this.
> 
> Two young Turkish boys take the bus in Germany. One said to other "Man there is lots of Turks here, maybe we should conquer this place." An old Germany lady hears the conversation, smiles and says "Years ago Jews said the same thing ". Boys are speechless.



Troll Granny !

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## vostok

Wholegrain said:


> And Kavkazi Chechens and Dagestanis are citizens of Russia. You can't call them illegals like central asians.



Did I? Or you do not know that Caucasus is not in Central Asia?


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## East Asia United

Sinan said:


> @East Asia United
> 
> I ask about this operation whenever i came across a Korean.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey-defence/239780-diary-turkish-soldier-korean-war.html
> 
> Do you have any info regarding this operation ?



Wow, that's very interesting. No I don't unfortunately.



Desert Fox said:


> I haven't had the chance to meet any British Pakistanis thus far but from what other people tell me and from what i have read, if i compare between the British Pakistanis and American Pakistanis, then yes American Pakistanis are better off in comparison.
> 
> Perhaps its because the brits are less strict on immigrant populations? Whatever the case, the problem is irreversible.



I don't get it.... so basically in Britain they have highly selective immigration for Indians, allowing only the best of the best in, but when it comes to Pakistanis, their qualifications don't matter even close to as much?

Strange....

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## RangerPK

Christianity is a declining religion in Europe I think. Thanks to over liberal narrative imposed by the state.It has been reduced to strippers wearing a cross around their neck while stripping. Reducing a religion to mere symbols is like inviting paganism. A Christian who reads his scriptures would know this. The vaccum is just being filled by Islam, as more churches are being emptied, and more mosques are filled, those churches are converted to mosques. 

Plus, Islam is the natural completion of Christianity. Those who are Christians, follow their books, would naturally become Muslims. If they reject Quran, it would be like rejecting God.






Spain was majority Muslim country in Europe , till the Europeans killed all the Muslims there. We saw same/similar hostility to Muslims in Europe in Eastern Europe. Since, now ISlam is increasing again in Europe. They might experience hostility again.


But the thing is, what , not just the immigrant Muslims, but the Europeans Muslims would do about it? Would they repeat the history? or?

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## flamer84

RangerPK said:


> Christianity is a declining religion in Europe I think. Thanks to over liberal narrative imposed by the state.It has been reduced to strippers wearing a cross around their neck while stripping. Reducing a religion to mere symbols is like inviting paganism. A Christian who reads his scriptures would know this. The vaccum is just being filled by Islam, as more churches are being emptied, and more mosques are filled, those churches are converted to mosques.
> 
> Plus, Islam is the natural completion of Christianity. Those who are Christians, follow their books, would naturally become Muslims. *If they reject Quran, it would be like rejecting God.*
> 
> 
> 
> Spain was majority Muslim country in Europe , till the Europeans killed all the Muslims there. We saw same/similar hostility to Muslims in Europe in Eastern Europe. Since, now ISlam is increasing again in Europe. They might experience hostility again.
> 
> 
> 
> But the think is, what are not, not just the immigrant Muslims, but the Europeans Muslims would do about it? Would they repeat the history? or?



Oh really now? Thaks but NO,i have my God,keep yours to yourself.
It's idiotical posts like this that atract hate towards muslims,we don't want Islam.We didn't convert while we were under muslim rule,we sure as hell won't going to do it now.Keep this attitude,let's see where it leads you but don't go on screaming racists after that.
This is the real problem,not the natives but this constant "they have to,they have to".We don't have to do squat,and WE WON'T!

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## vostok

RangerPK said:


> Plus, Islam is the natural completion of Christianity. Those who are Christians, follow their books, would naturally become Muslims. If they reject Quran, it would be like rejecting God.



May be Western Europe will fall and become Muslim. It is possible.
But Eastern Europe - i doubt.

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## RangerPK

flamer84 said:


> Oh really now? Thaks but NO,i have my God,keep yours to yourself.
> It's idiotical posts like this that atract hate towards muslims,we don't want Islam.We didn't convert while we were under muslim rule,we sure as hell won't going to do it now.Keep this attitude,let's see where it leads you but don't go on screaming racists after that.
> This is the real problem,not the natives but this constant "they have to,they have to".We don't have to do squat,and WE WON'T!



Prophet Ibrahim had two sons. Ismail and Isaac. From his son Isaac, came a series of Prophets, which included, PRophets, Mosa/Moses, Prophet Isa/Jesus. From his first son, Ismail, came the Arabs, and among them the only and the last of Prophet of God. He is Prophet Muhammad (SAW). And upon him, like Moses and Jesus, a holy book was revealed. IT was the Quran. Thus, Islam is the natural completion of Christianity.

PS: There is only one God. Muslims worship the God of IBrahim, the God of Ismail, The God of Iseaq, The God of Moses, the God of Jesus. Non of them were polytheists, they were pure, and monotheistic.


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## flamer84

RangerPK said:


> Prophet Ibrahim had two sons. Ismail and Isaac. From his son Isaac, came a series of Prophets, which included, PRophets, Mosa/Moses, Prophet Isa/Jesus. From his first son, Ismail, came the Arabs, and among them the only and the last of Prophet of God. He is Prophet Muhammad (SAW). And upon him, like Moses and Jesus, a holy book was revealed. IT was the Quran. Thus, Islam is the natural completion of Christianity.
> 
> PS: There is only one God. Muslims worship the God of IBrahim, the God of Ismail, The God of Iseaq, The God of Moses, the God of Jesus. Non of them were polytheists, they were pure, and monotheistic.



I respect your version but I adhere to mine( orthodox Christianity).
Is it so hard for you to do the same?

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## p(-)0ENiX

vostok said:


> May be Western Europe will fall and become Muslim. It is possible.
> But Eastern Europe - i doubt.



I don't think Western Europe will fall. People have the right to believe in whatever religion they want, it's no one else's business. 

Some of the steps Western European nations need to take include; controlling immigration, deporting illegal immigrants, punishing immigrants involved in crime, & performing the blood eagle on those that yell "dey beee racissst" all the time. 

Keep in mind that the immigration issue isn't the only trouble that the Western world faces. The degradation of moral standards for instance must be reversed as well, & that in itself would solve a variety of societal ills.

All people have the right to preserve their heritage & way of life in their own home lands. If resentment among the indigenous continues to rise, it's only a matter of time before they grab hold of their politicians' necks.

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## vostok

p(-)0ENiX said:


> I don't think Western Europe will fall. People have the right to believe in whatever religion they want, it's no one else's business.
> 
> Some of the steps Western European nations need to take include; controlling immigration, deporting illegal immigrants, punishing immigrants involved in crime, & performing the blood eagle on those that yell "dey beee racissst" all the time.
> 
> Keep in mind that the immigration issue isn't the only trouble that the Western world faces. The degradation of moral standards for instance must be reversed as well, & that in itself would solve a variety of societal ills.
> 
> All people have the right to preserve their heritage & way of life in their own home lands. If resentment among the indigenous continues to rise, it's only a matter of time before they grab hold of their politicians' necks.


It would not Erope any more. It will be Eurabia. Europe=Christianity.


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## Developereo

RangerPK said:


> Plus, Islam is the natural completion of Christianity. Those who are Christians, follow their books, would naturally become Muslims. If they reject Quran, it would be like rejecting God.



Please put away your dreams of conquest.

What is it with Pakistanis and delusions of global conquest?


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## RangerPK

vostok said:


> May be Western Europe will fall and become Muslim. It is possible.
> But Eastern Europe - i doubt.



Why would western Europe fall? Did the western Europe fell, when the Roman empire was killing Pagans and converting them to Christianity? A religion from Middle East, Jesus Christ, a man who was from the family of Prophet Ibrahim?

Prophet Muhammad is also from the family of Prophet Ibrahim, from his son Ismail. A religion from Middle East.
A religion which started from prophet Adam, and continued through, Prophet, Ibrahim, his two sons, Isaaq and Ismail, to Prophet Moses to Prophet Jesus, and has reached its conclusion upon Prophet Muhammad, the last of Prophet of God. Thus it only makes sense for Christians in Europe to accept the conclusion of their religion which is Islam. 

PS: Europe has been Muslims before, Spain being one example.


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## p(-)0ENiX

vostok said:


> It would not Erope any more. It will be Eurabia. Europe=Christianity.



Nah, I am not saying Europeans should convert to Islam. As I said earlier, people have the right to believe in any religion they want, that's none of my business. 

Personally, I don't think Europe is equal to Christianity. The Greco-Roman civilizations happen to be some of my favorites & they weren't Christian. Christianity was successful in giving Europeans an alternate identity to replace the Roman one with after the fall of Rome though.


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## RangerPK

Developereo said:


> Please put away your dreams of conquest.
> 
> What is it with Pakistanis and delusions of global conquest?



When did I talk about "conquests"


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## vostok

RangerPK said:


> Why would western Europe fall? Did the western Europe fell, when the Roman empire was killing Pagans and converting them to Christianity? A religion from Middle East, Jesus Christ, a man who was from the family of Prophet Ibrahim?
> 
> Prophet Muhammad is also from the family of Prophet Ibrahim, from his son Ismail. A religion from Middle East.
> A religion which started from prophet Adam, and continued through, Prophet, Ibrahim, his two sons, Isaaq and Ismail, to Prophet Moses to Prophet Jesus, and has reached its conclusion upon Prophet Muhammad, the last of Prophet of God. Thus it only makes sense for Christians in Europe to accept the conclusion of their religion which is Islam.
> 
> PS: Europe has been Muslims before, Spain being one example.


Will you accept Saudi Arabia or Pakistan as a Christian nation? Will consider them the same Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?
Religion is something deep - you can not change reigiyu and stay the same.
And the fact that the Arabs conquered the Iberian Peninsula - it was not Spain, it was the Caliphate, not Spain.

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## vostok

p(-)0ENiX said:


> Nah, I am not saying Europeans should convert to Islam. As I said earlier, people have the right to believe in any religion they want, that's none of my business.
> 
> Personally, I don't think Europe is equal to Christianity. The Greco-Roman civilizations happen to be some of my favorites & they weren't Christian. Christianity was successful in giving Europeans an alternate identity to replace the Roman one with after the fall of Rome though.



Greco-Roman civilizations - not Europe civilizations. They are aincent Mediterranian civilizations.
Europe starts in Middle Ages


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## p(-)0ENiX

vostok said:


> Greco-Roman civilizations - not Europe civilizations. They are aincent Mediterranian civilizations.
> Europe starts Middle Ages



The Greco-Roman civilizations are an important part of European history. The ancient Roman civilization is among some of the most famous & respected European civilizations. Besides the word or Europe or the name for the continent "Europa" originates from Greek mythology. It's just one example of numerous contributions made by the Greeks & Romans to modern day Europe. 

However, I do see your point. You believe that Europe's identity is Christian, there is nothing wrong with. Religion does have an influence on culture & to some extent is an important part of a people's identity. 

Anyway, I will comeback to this thread later, it's about to be breakfast time here.


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## RangerPK

vostok said:


> Will you accept Saudi Arabia or Pakistan as a Christian nation? Will consider them the same Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?
> Religion is something deep - you can not change reigiyu and stay the same.
> And the fact that the Arabs conquered the Iberian Peninsula - it was not Spain, it was the Caliphate, not Spain.



From religious point of view, Islam is the conclusion of Christianity, because Prophet Muhammad is from Prophet Ibrahim's son, Ismail.

As long as Europeans are Christians, then Europeans are more likely to become Muslims more than any other religion, like I said, Islam is the next step in Christianity.

If you are talking about sociological point of view, when people refuse to accept a Prophet, because of their "egos" and "arrogance" then that can be viewed from different angle....


From cultural point of view, Europe had conservative values, like marriage, chastity, promoting heterosexuality, but now just recently ( after America's sex revolution), the European states are imposing this extreme form of liberalism in which they are throwing conventional morality down the toilet. This is leaving a vacuum in European society and Islam can fill that gap.


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## vostok

RangerPK said:


> From religious point of view, Islam is the conclusion of Christianity, because Prophet Muhammad is from Prophet Ibrahim's son, Ismail.
> 
> As long as Europeans are Christians, then Europeans are more likely to become Muslims more than any other religion, like I said, Islam is the next step in Christianity.
> 
> If you are talking about sociological point of view, when people refuse to accept a Prophet, because of their "egos" and "arrogance" then that can be viewed from different angle....
> 
> 
> From cultural point of view, Europe had conservative values, like marriage, chastity, promoting heterosexuality, but now just recently ( after America's sex revolution), the European states are imposing this extreme form of liberalism in which they are throwing conventional morality down the toilet. This is leaving a vacuum in European society and Islam can fill that gap.


However, the fact that Christianity and Islam have their roots in Judaism - does not change anything.
You would not like to see your country has changed the religious identity only on the basis of their adjacency, forgetting centuries of history and denying identity?
Non-Christian Europe - not Europe.


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## vostok

p(-)0ENiX said:


> The Greco-Roman civilizations are an important part of European history. The ancient Roman civilization is among some of the most famous & respected European civilizations. Besides the word or Europe or the name for the continent "Europa" originates from Greek mythology. It's just one example of numerous contributions made by the Greeks & Romans to modern day Europe.
> 
> However, I do see your point. You believe that Europe's identity is Christian, there is nothing wrong with. Religion does have an influence on culture & to some extent is an important part of a people's identity.
> 
> Anyway, I will comeback to this thread later, it's about to be breakfast time here.


The Greeks learned a lot from the Egyptians, Romans from the Greeks, the Europeans - from the Romans.
But it's completely different civilizations. The Roman Empire was a certain ideal for medieval Europeans civilizations, but they have surpassed it in everything.
But Europe become modern Europe - West Civilization just becouse of Christianity. This is the basis of European civilization.
You, too, think that Islam - the basis of the Arab civilization? Who would you be without this religion? Bunch disparate eternally warring tribes.
Likewise, Europeans still would have remained wild forest barbarians.
And the whole world would have been different, do not take Europe to Christianity. There would not be a technical progress at all.


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## RangerPK

vostok said:


> However, the fact that Christianity and Islam have their roots in Judaism - does not change anything.
> You would not like to see your country has changed the religious identity only on the basis of their adjacency, forgetting centuries of history and denying identity?
> Non-Christian Europe - not Europe.



The Europeans have changed their "identity" before, and is religion really that much of a central part of European identity? really? Judging by what we see today, Europeans are getting tired of Christianity and are just Christians by name, some not even that, they have started to convert to agnosticism, or atheism as well. If anything, Europeans have started to move away from Christian "identity".


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## vostok

RangerPK said:


> The Europeans have changed their "identity" before, and is religion really that much of a central part of European identity? really? Judging by what we see today, Europeans are getting tired of Christianity and are just Christians by name, some not even that, they have started to convert to agnosticism, or atheism as well. If anything, Europeans have started to move away from Christian "identity".


Yes, the Europeans changing their identity. And with that cease to be Europeans. I do not know who they will be in a hundred years - Muslims, or transatlantic, but it will be non-Europeans.

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## RangerPK

vostok said:


> Yes, the Europeans changing their identity. And with that cease to be Europeans. I do not know who they will be in a hundred years - Muslims, or transatlantic, but it will be non-Europeans.



I am pretty sure they would remain Europeans, regardless of what their religion might be. Similar, to how, Asians remain Asians, regardless of their religion, or how Africans remain Africans regardless of their religion, or even how, Americans remain Americans, regardless of their religion, or race for that matter, as proven by Obama.


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## ChineseTiger1986

vostok said:


> Greco-Roman civilizations - not Europe civilizations. They are aincent Mediterranian civilizations.
> Europe starts in Middle Ages



Greco-Roman was European, but the Christianity started as a foreign Middle Eastern religion, later it became europeanized in Europe.

And the ancient Russia/Ukraine was Scythia, you also think it was not European?

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## RangerPK

vostok said:


> The Greeks learned a lot from the Egyptians, Romans from the Greeks, the Europeans - from the Romans.
> But it's completely different civilizations. The Roman Empire was a certain ideal for medieval Europeans civilizations, but they have surpassed it in everything.
> But Europe become modern Europe - *West Civilization just becouse of Christianity. This is the basis of European civilization.*
> You, too, think that Islam - the basis of the Arab civilization? Who would you be without this religion? Bunch disparate eternally warring tribes.
> Likewise, Europeans still would have remained wild forest barbarians.
> And the whole world would have been different, do not take Europe to Christianity. There would not be a technical progress at all.



If you think, Christianity made what Europe is today, then it is probably because of Christian values in Europe, but now, those Christian values are disappearing in Europe? Does Europe need a Religion of Christian values? If so, don't you think Islam is the next best candidate for that? if not Christianity?

This is what I mean when I say, there is a vacuum in Europe right now, which needs to be filled, and it is being filled by Islam right now, because Christianity is not filling it....


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## vostok

RangerPK said:


> I am pretty sure they would remain Europeans, regardless of what their religion might be. Similar, to how, Asians remain Asians, regardless of their religion, or how Africans remain Africans regardless of their religion, or even how, Americans remain Americans, regardless of their religion, or race for that matter, as proven by Obama.



They would remains habitants of European continent. That is all. European Civilization will fall and become history.
Imagine all Arabian Country become Christians. They will remaine Arabs, but Arabian Civilization will fall.


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## ChineseTiger1986

vostok said:


> They would remains habitants of European continent. That is all. European Civilization will fall and become history.
> Imagine all Arabian Country become Christians. They will remaine Arabs, but Arabian Civilization will fall.



Most Arabs were Christians during the pre-Islamic era.

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## vostok

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Greco-Roman was European, but the Christianity started as a foreign Middle Eastern religion, later it became europeanized in Europe.
> 
> And the ancient Russia/Ukraine was Scythia, you also think it was not European?



Greco-Romans were in continent Europe - part of them. Europeans in that's time were wild barbarians.
Scythians - Persian tribes. Russian - Slavic.
In 100 years may be only Russia and few Eastern European countries will remains Europeans.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Most Arabs were Christians during the pre-Islamic era.



And what great achivments they made? Arabs become great nation and great civilization after Muslim.


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## RangerPK

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Most Arabs were Christians during the pre-Islamic era.



True, you can argue Middle East was Muslim even before Islam, because Middle Eastern people used to follow the Prophets of God from Ibrahim's second son Isaaq, They used to follow Prophet, Isaaq, Prophet Moses, Prophet Yusaf, Prophet Isa/Jesus, till the last Prophet came in the Middle East from Prophet Ibrahim's first son, Ismail. He was Prophet Muhammad. Thus the Middle Eastern people became the followers of Prophet Muhammad, because for them he was just another ( but last) Prophet from the series of Prophet-hood from the Ibrahimic family. Thus I say, Islam is the logical conclusion of Christianity, and majority of the population in Middle is Muslim now; A region from which Christianity started. However, Europeans, for some reason, are stubborn to accept this.


PS: There were also polytheist in the Middle East during that time.

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## vostok

RangerPK said:


> If you think, Christianity made what Europe is today, then it is probably because of Christian values in Europe, but now, those Christian values are disappearing in Europe? Does Europe need a Religion of Christian values? If so, don't you think Islam is the next best candidate for that? if not Christianity?
> 
> This is what I mean when I say, there is a vacuum in Europe right now, which needs to be filled, and it is being filled by Islam right now, because Christianity is not filling it....


I think the next best candidate - Orthodox Christianity. And I think some day Pope will unite Catholics wiht Orthodox - if he wants to save part of Europe.


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## ChineseTiger1986

vostok said:


> Greco-Romans were in continent Europe - part of them. Europeans in that's time were wild barbarians.
> Scythians - Persian tribes. Russian - Slavic.
> In 100 years may be only Russia and few Eastern European countries will remains Europeans.



Scythia was a common culture, not exclusively Iranians.

The historical Scythians in East Europe were mostly Slavs, i think it is pretty indigenous East European, but the whole Europe got influenced by semitic culture via Christianity.

I think whether Europe becomes Muslim or returns its Pagan root, it will always remain European.

Christianity is the older brother of Islam, it didn't turn Europe into non-European, yet why Islam will turn Europe into non-European?

It doesn't make sense.

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## ChineseTiger1986

vostok said:


> And what great achivments they made? Arabs become great nation and great civilization after Muslim.



Both Christianity and Islam were created by the ancestor of the Arab people, therefore i don't think switching these two religions would have the major impact to their society.

Remember, Albanians and Bosniaks are Europeans, while Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are South Asians, Islam didn't change their identity.

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## vostok

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Scythia was a common culture, not exclusively Iranians.
> 
> The historical Scythians in East Europe were mostly Slavs, i think it is pretty indigenous East European, but the whole Europe got influenced by semitic culture via Christianity.
> 
> I think whether Europe becomes Muslim or returns its Pagan root, it will always remain European.
> 
> Christianity is the older brother of Islam, it didn't turn Europe into non-European, yet why Islam will turn Europe into non-European?
> 
> It doesn't make sense.


Slavic tribes were part of Scyphian state, but they were not Scythian. China was part of Mongolia - but Chinese were not Mongolians?
The rest Parsian people in Russia - Osetians.
Hard to explain to a person whose culture does not imply a belief in God, why a country should remain in exactly the faith in which she borates to God.
If people lose faith - ceases to be a nation. We have passed it after the Revolution. The party fought the "Great Russian chauvinism" - because of this Little Russians (Ukrainians) and White Russians (Belarusians) were recognized as distinct peoples, and not part of the Russian, as it has been for thousands of years.
Russian people are very badly damaged, and only now the identity of the Russian world begins to recover.


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## ChineseTiger1986

vostok said:


> Slavic tribes were part of Scyphian state, but they were not Scythian. China was part of Mongolia - but Chinese were not Mongolians?
> The rest Parsian people in Russia - Osetians.
> Hard to explain to a person whose culture does not imply a belief in God, why a country should remain in exactly the faith in which she borates to God.
> If people lose faith - ceases to be a nation. We have passed it after the Revolution. The party fought the "Great Russian chauvinism" - because of this Little Russians (Ukrainians) and White Russians (Belarusians) were recognized as distinct peoples, and not part of the Russian, as it has been for thousands of years.
> Russian people are very badly damaged, and only now the identity of the Russian world begins to recover.



Well, Scythians actually carried the European/Slavic clade of R1a AKA R1a-Z283, which is distinct from the Indo-Iranian clade AKA R1a-Z93.

http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=21698

Because they descended from a forrest-steppe Corded Ware tribe Abashevo close to their Aryan/Indo-Iranian R1a-Z93 neighbor, that's why they got linguistically/culturally Iranicized, while genetically remained Slavic.

BTW, the true genetic descendants of the Scythians were Don Cossacks, not Ossetians. Since Ossetians are only linguistically descended from the Scythians, but genetically they are the native folks in Caucacus who got linguistically/culturally Scythianized by the ancient Scythians.

BTW, the history of Russia and East Europe is interesting, i think you guys will remain Europeans, you don't have to worry about.


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## vostok

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, Scythians actually carried the European/Slavic clade of R1a AKA R1a-Z283, which is distinct from the Indo-Iranian clade AKA R1a-Z93.
> 
> http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=21698
> 
> Because they descended from a forrest-steppe Corded Ware tribe Abashevo close to their Aryan/Indo-Iranian R1a-Z93 neighbor, that's why they got linguistically/culturally Iranicized, while genetically remained Slavic.
> 
> BTW, the true genetic descendants of the Scythians were Don Cossacks, not Ossetians. Since Ossetians are only linguistically descended from the Scythians, but genetically they are the native folks in Caucacus who got linguistically/culturally Scythianized by the ancient Scythians.
> 
> BTW, the history of Russia and East Europe is interesting, i think you guys will remain Europeans, you don't have to worry about.


The Scythians had shared with "Royal Scythians" - actually the Scythians, they were warriors and kings, and the Scythians in forest - these were pure Slavs, tributaries of the Royal Scythians.
In the steppe had so many waves - from the Huns and the Scythians to the Nagai and Tatars, there is mixed all races and peoples.
Cossacks - not a nation, but a military class. Most of them - the Russian, but there were Caucasians, and even the Mongols.
Ossetians - the last descendants of the Scythians, they retain their language and customs (not in its pure form, of course).
Genetics - not always a sufficient criterion, more important are language, faith and traditions.
We will remain Europeans, becuase nowadays houndreds of Orthodox chichers are build in Russia. Thet's why we save our identity.


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## ChineseTiger1986

vostok said:


> The Scythians had shared with "Royal Scythians" - actually the Scythians, they were warriors and kings, and the Scythians in forest - these were pure Slavs, tributaries of the Royal Scythians.
> In the steppe had so many waves - from the Huns and the Scythians to the Nagai and Tatars, there is mixed all races and peoples.
> Cossacks - not a nation, but a military class. Most of them - the Russian, but there were Caucasians, and even the Mongols.
> Ossetians - the last descendants of the Scythians, they retain their language and customs (not in its pure form, of course).
> Genetics - not always a sufficient criterion, more important are language, faith and traditions.



Most Scythians were native East European Slavs, but they got linguistically/culturally Iranicized by the steppe Indo-Iranians, so this means the Iranian ruler ruled over many other Slavic Scythians.

Just like the Anglo-Saxons got ruled by the French Normans, the Royal Family was French Normans, but the rest folks were Anglo-Saxons.

Scythia got ruled by some Iranian elites in small number, but the rest Scythians were still Slavs.

Scythia was still Slavic just like England is Anglo-Saxon.


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## vostok

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Most Scythians were native East European Slavs, but they got linguistically/culturally Iranicized by the steppe Indo-Iranians, so this means the Iranian ruler ruled over many other Slavic Scythians.
> 
> Just like the Anglo-Saxons got ruled by the French Normans, the Royal Family was French Normans, but the rest folks were Anglo-Saxons.
> 
> Scythia got ruled by some Iranian elites in small number, but the rest Scythians were still Slavs.
> 
> Scythia was still Slavic just like England is Anglo-Saxon.


No. It is different.
Royal scythians did not marrige with forest Skythians (Slavic). Forest Skythians(Slavic) did not know Scythians language. They just pay tribute and that is all. No mix.
You know, actually their domination above Slavic were nominative. Slavic could go in deep forests into the north (many did). Then Scythians were superseded by Sarmatians. Before Scythains were Kimmerians.
Chinese must know thet steppe people always move and always try to invade and to impose a tribute.


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## Wholegrain

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Most Scythians were native East European Slavs, but they got linguistically/culturally Iranicized by the steppe Indo-Iranians, so this means the Iranian ruler ruled over many other Slavic Scythians.
> 
> Just like the Anglo-Saxons got ruled by the French Normans, the Royal Family was French Normans, but the rest folks were Anglo-Saxons.
> 
> Scythia got ruled by some Iranian elites in small number, but the rest Scythians were still Slavs.
> 
> Scythia was still Slavic just like England is Anglo-Saxon.





I have heard that Russians are Slavicized and Christianized Finno Ugrians. The theory is that they were originally pagan finno ugrians and Kievan Rus slavicized them by language and convert them to christianity.

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## ChineseTiger1986

vostok said:


> No. It is different.
> Royal scythians did not marrige with forest Skythians (Slavic). Forest Skythians(Slavic) did not know Scythians language. They just pay tribute and that is all. No mix.
> You know, actually their domination above Slavic were nominative. Slavic could go in deep forests into the north (many did). Then Scythians were superseded by Sarmatians. Before Scythains were Kimmerians.
> Chinese must know thet steppe people always move and always try to invade and to impose a tribute.



The Royal Scythians were actually Iranicized Corded Abashevo tribes (most eastern Balto-Slavic tribe), and they got brainwashed by the steppe Aryan supremacy, they tended to look down at the non-Iranian speaking forest Scythians (Slavs). But the recent genetic test shows that they were genetically identical to the Slavs.

Actually both Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian descended from the Proto-Indo-European Yamna culture in South Russia/Ukraine. About 6000 years ago, the two groups headed toward two different directions.

- The original Proto-Indo-European Yamna tribes were Mediterranean type.

- The Yamna tribes headed toward the northwest Baltic regions and mixed with the indigenous North Europeans to create the blonde Nordic Corded Ware (Balto-Slavic) tribes.

- The Yamna tribes headed towards the eastern Caspian steppe became the Indo-Iranian tribes and remained the same Mediterranean type as their PIE ancestor.

- Scythians carried R1a-Z283 and were the very blonde Nordic type like Balto-Slavic, but they got culturally brainwashed by the Aryan/Indo-Iranian tribes in the east.

But you are right, the steppe people were not that nice when it came to the tax and tribute, our ancestors also got often threatened and harrassed by the steppe nomads as well.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Wholegrain said:


> I have heard that Russians are Slavicized and Christianized Finno Ugrians. The theory is that they were originally pagan finno ugrians and Kievan Rus slavicized them by language and convert them to christianity.



The modern Russians have heavily mixed with the Finno-Ugrians and converted into Christianity, but they are still predominantly East Slavs.

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## Developereo

RangerPK said:


> When did I talk about "conquests"



Your comments substantiate some people's fear that Europe will lose its cultural identity and become a Muslim continent. They don't differentiate between conversion and immigration.

There is no need to fuel this irrational fear.


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## flamer84

RangerPK said:


> True, you can argue Middle East was Muslim even before Islam, because Middle Eastern people used to follow the Prophets of God from Ibrahim's second son Isaaq, They used to follow Prophet, Isaaq, Prophet Moses, Prophet Yusaf, Prophet Isa/Jesus, till the last Prophet came in the Middle East from Prophet Ibrahim's first son, Ismail. He was Prophet Muhammad. Thus the Middle Eastern people became the followers of Prophet Muhammad, because for them he was just another ( but last) Prophet from the series of Prophet-hood from the Ibrahimic family. Thus I say, Islam is the logical conclusion of Christianity, and majority of the population in Middle is Muslim now; A region from which Christianity started. *However, Europeans, for some reason, are stubborn to accept this.*
> 
> 
> PS: There were also polytheist in the Middle East during that time.






I will tell you why that happens,you will not like it.If you would have tried an amiable conversion,gently explaining Islam 101 maybe,just maybe you would have stood a chance,but after we saw how islamic countries look like nowadays,the wacky laws they have,this constant push "Europe must..." not only that we don't want it,we're afraid of it,we resent it like a host resents a virus.I'm sry that you don't understand this but current Islam goes against everything we stand for today,if you think otherwise it's your business,just don't dream to a mass conversion like christianity in roman times.Not gonna happen.Accepting the current form of Islam is like reverting to the middle ages.



vostok said:


> I think the next best candidate - Orthodox Christianity. And I think some day Pope will unite Catholics wiht Orthodox - if he wants to save part of Europe.



Never under his rule! Not even with a "primus inter pares" position for the pope.If he's so pious(which i always doubt about catholic popes) he should renounce his ruling privileges and don't get me started at the other things catholics should corect in general.

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## Desert Fox

vostok said:


> It would not Erope any more. It will be Eurabia. Europe=Christianity.





vostok said:


> Will you accept Saudi Arabia or Pakistan as a Christian nation? Will consider them the same Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?
> Religion is something deep - you can not change reigiyu and stay the same.
> And the fact that the Arabs conquered the Iberian Peninsula - it was not Spain, it was the Caliphate, not Spain.



For someone with a Communist poster as your user pic, i find it kinda weird that you support the Christian identity of Europe.

Nevertheless, i see nothing wrong with Christianity still maintaining a central role in European culture and civilization if that is what Europeans want. Christianity is better than no religion at all.

But the problem is, that Christianity, as a religion, is losing its influence on modern European society.

Within the past few decades Europe has seen a sharp decline in its family structure, family values, morals, and ethics. This has lead to a sharp decline in the native population, among other things.

Europeans have, instead, allowed Marxist values to take the place of their age old family traditions. Feminism is amongst these Marxist values.

Feminism has convinced the woman that she doesn't have to have babies. That she doesn't have to be a wife or a mother. That she doesn't have to form a healthy family built on family values for the continuation of her NATION and RACE. It has, instead, convinced her that she is an exact EQUAL of her gender opposite. A false notion which has embarked the European races on a path towards their own destruction.

Marxism, instead, has made obscene and morally corrupt, degenerate behavior seem normal and okay. It has convinced the Europeans that homosexuality and lesbian behavior is completely "normal". That having multiple sexual partners is "fun" and "wild", something to "enjoy". When in fact, such degeneracy only causes misery, spread of disease, and does not continue the procreation of the race. 

Thus eroding away generations of European family values which once formed the basis for European civilization and the continuation of its people.

Once Europe's population is composed of nothing more than old folks unable to defend themselves, the "outsiders" will easily overwhelm the native populace and take its place as the new inhabitants of the European continent.



Anyway, you being a Communist might harbor extreme hatred for Adolf Hitler, but no one can deny that he was one of the most intelligent men of his time and a true European Nationalist with a vision and foresight unparalleled in his time.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Marxism has saved Russia from the Nazi aggressors.

I think Russia needs the Marxism even more than the Christianity, just like the Muslim nations need Islam more than anything else.


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## Desert Fox

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Marxism has saved Russia from the Nazi aggressors.
> 
> I think Russia needs the Marxism even more than the Christianity, just like the Muslim nations need Islam more than anything else.



Marxism is what destroyed Russia and Europe. Marxism has eroded away the basis of European civilizations.

BTW, Marxism also killed 60,000,000 (60 Million) Russian/Slavic/European people between 1917-1989 in the former Soviet Union alone.

Worldwide, Communism/Marxism has murdered close to 200,000,000 people.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Desert Fox said:


> Marxism is what destroyed Russia and Europe. Marxism has eroded away the basis of European civilizations.
> 
> BTW, Marxism also killed 60,000,000 (60 Million) Russian/Slavic/European people between 1917-1989 in the former Soviet Union alone.
> 
> Worldwide, Communism/Marxism has murdered close to 200,000,000 people.



Typical anti-communist propaganda and scapegoating jews white supremacist idea.

Wonder why you are so anti-semitic? Even your native country has a semitic national religion.

The Zionism is bad, but not everything related to semtic is also bad.


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## flamer84

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Typical anti-communist propaganda and scapegoating jews white supremacist idea.
> 
> Wonder why you are so anti-semitic? Even your native country has a semitic national religion.
> 
> The Zionism is bad, but not everything related to semtic is also bad.



Marxism/bolshevism is a jewish conception.Europe is marxist right now,it may hide under its democratic blanket but it's full blown socialism.

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## p(-)0ENiX

vostok said:


> The Greeks learned a lot from the Egyptians, Romans from the Greeks, the Europeans - from the Romans.
> But it's completely different civilizations.



The Greeks learnt from many of the surrounding nations, such as alphabets from the Phoenicians. However, it doesn't really matter because knowledge flows from one group of people to another.

The ancient Greek civilization was a European civilization, but I understood your point. Modern day Western civilization begun during the renaissance from your perspective right?



vostok said:


> The Roman Empire was a certain ideal for medieval Europeans civilizations, but they have surpassed it in everything.
> But Europe become modern Europe - West Civilization just becouse of Christianity. This is the basis of European civilization.



Christianity united Europeans after the fall of Rome, & it provided them with morals & values. However, Christianity alone did not advance Europe. Knowledge acquired by the ancient Greeks, Romans, & the Islamic civilization collectively contributed to the Italian or European Renaissance.

That led to immediate technological progress resulting in a living standard comparable to that which the Romans had in the past. During the Medieval Age for instance; the recipe of concrete had been lost, so lets not underestimate how much the Latin civilization contributed to Europe's progress.



vostok said:


> You, too, think that Islam - the basis of the Arab civilization? Who would you be without this religion? Bunch disparate eternally warring tribes.
> Likewise, Europeans still would have remained wild forest barbarians.
> And the whole world would have been different, do not take Europe to Christianity. There would not be a technical progress at all.



There were multiple Semitic civilizations before Islam, the most well known of which are the Mesopotamian & Phoenician civilizations. Even Carthage could be considered an extension of Phoenician civilization seeing as it was after all founded by Phoenicians. 

As I said earlier, I do understand your point that Christianity was to some extent part & parcel of Western civilization similar to how Islam is integrated in to the Arab world today.

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## Desert Fox

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Typical anti-communist propaganda and scapegoating jews white supremacist idea.
> 
> Wonder why you are so anti-semitic? Even your native country has a semitic national religion.
> 
> The Zionism is bad, but not everything related to semtic is also bad.



No body scapegoating Jews. Posting historically established facts is not propaganda.

We all saw the state of Eastern Europe and Russia after the collapse of Soviet Union. Russian women have to prostitute themselves to make a living and send money back home to their families. Russian men have become addicts to heroin and alcohol abuse is rampant. Living conditions are horrible. Russian native population is dwindling year by year.

Communism gave radioactive poison to the Russian/Soviet people in the form of Chernobyl.


Secondly, Islam is a religion for all of humanity. It is not just a "Semetic" religion.

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## ChineseTiger1986

flamer84 said:


> Marxism/bolshevism is a jewish conception.Europe is marxist right now,it may hide under its democratic blanket but it's full blown socialism.



You should thank to Karl Marx that you didn't get exploited by the primitive irregulated capitalism.

The greatest achievement and glorious time for Russia existed in the era of USSR, the Russian Empire was so damn primitive compared to the mighty USSR.


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## flamer84

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You should thank to Karl Marx that you didn't get exploited by the primitive irregulated capitalism.
> 
> The greatest achievement and glorious time for Russia existed in the era of USSR, the Russian Empire was so damn primitive compared to the mighty USSR.



I would ask you to refrain from telling me to whome must i thank.Communisn was a vile disease for us,we didn't cure soon enough.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Desert Fox said:


> Secondly, Islam is a religion for all of humanity. It is not just a "Semetic" religion.



Your Islam "as an universal religion" idea doesn't match properly with your Nazi-worshipping idea.

You wanna the white Europeans to take the racial purity idea to preserve the purity of their race, yet you believe that they should also be converted into Islam?

Islam is not against interracial marriage, thus your ideology is at conflict.



flamer84 said:


> I would ask you to refrain from telling me to whome must i thank.Communisn was a vile disease for us,we didn't cure soon enough.



SRR was a former small communist state, thus there is no glory and greatness to be missed by its people.

But USSR was Russia's greatest past, and the Russian people have their greatest life quality during that time, thus it is normal for many Russian people to miss its former glory and greatness.

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## Desert Fox

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Your Islam "as an universal religion" idea doesn't match properly with your Nazi-worshipping idea.



I worship none but Allah (God).

Secondly, Islam being a universal religion doesn't mean it should be imposed on others by force. 




ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You wanna the white Europeans to take the racial purity idea to preserve the purity of their race, yet you believe that they should also be converted into Islam?



God has created every race. God has made this variety in the Humans.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Islam is not against interracial marriage, thus your ideology is at conflict.



Its not against, but its neither for. You won't get penalized for marrying in your own.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Desert Fox said:


> I worship none but Allah (God).
> 
> Secondly, Islam being a universal religion doesn't mean it should be imposed on others by force.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> God has created every race. God has made this variety in the Humans.
> 
> 
> 
> Its not against, but its neither for. You won't get penalized for marrying in your own.



Sure, but the European white nationalist idea won't be openly allowed, useless they remain secular.

That's why i believe an Islamic Europe will be similar to the Christian Europe, remain secular and distinctly European which is different from other non-white Muslim nations.

When Islam got deeply europeanized, i think some white supremacist group can come out with the slogan such as Allah is the white men's god, just like they did now with Jehovah as the white men's god.


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## p(-)0ENiX

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Your Islam "as an universal religion" idea doesn't match properly with your Nazi-worshipping idea.
> 
> You wanna the white Europeans to take the racial purity idea to preserve the purity of their race, yet you believe that they should also be converted into Islam?
> 
> Islam is not against interracial marriage, thus your ideology is at conflict.



Islam isn't against interracial marriage, but so what? Is there any other Abrahamic religion that outright forbids interracial marriage? I doubt it.

Besides, just because Islam doesn't forbid interracial marriage, it doesn't encourage it to the point that racial purity is eliminated either. In fact, the Quran actually acknowledges the differences within humankind, & those differences including the diversity of human languages are considered a sign from God.

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## Desert Fox

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Sure, but the European white nationalist idea won't be openly allowed, useless they remain secular.



Sorry, i didn't get this part. Elaborate further?



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> That's why i believe an Islamic Europe will be similar to the Christian Europe, remain secular and distinctly European which is different from other non-white Muslim nations.



Europe can only become Islamic by two ways:

1). If the current trend continues, Muslim immigrants will replace the European natives as the religious majority and the Europeans as a ethnic and religious minority. Thus, once the Muslims gain the upper hand they will most likely establish a Islamic Shariah State similar to the one in Afghanistan under Taliban and the one in Somalia.

2). Or Europeans embrace Islam through peaceful means and retain a distinct "European" identity. But this can only happen if Islam's image is improved by the actions of Muslim people themselves.






ChineseTiger1986 said:


> When Islam got deeply europeanized, i think some white supremacist group can come out with the slogan such as Allah is the white men's god, just like they did now with Jehovah as the white men's god.



Don't pay heed to some of these supremacist groups since a lot of them are filled with ignorant people.

A Muslims believes that the Quran is the word of God, and nowhere in the Quran has God stated that he's a "certain people's God". He is the creator of man kind and the entire universe.

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## ChineseTiger1986

p(-)0ENiX said:


> Islam isn't against interracial marriage, but so what? Is there any other Abrahamic religion that outright forbids interracial marriage? I doubt it.
> 
> Besides, just because Islam doesn't forbid interracial marriage, it doesn't encourage it to the point that racial purity is eliminated either. In fact, the Quran actually acknowledges the differences within humankind, & those differences including the diversity of human languages are considered a sign from God.



As for the interracial marriage stuff, don't be 100% obsessive of againt it, but also don't be at the opposite side, the moderate approach is the best way.


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## Desert Fox

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> As for the interracial marriage stuff, don't be 100% obsessive of againt it, but also don't be at the opposite side, the moderate approach is the best way.



If two individuals of different races, out of natural circumstances, genuinely love each other and marry each other then i have no authority or right to tell them they cannot do so. 

However, everyone has the right to preserve their Race and Nation. No one should be labeled a "racist" for wanting to preserve the unique history, culture, civilization, and identity of his people. Would you want your native country of China, with its age old civilization and rich history, to be populated and taken over by people who don't respect it or its history and refuse to contribute towards it continued existence, and thus bringing about the end of one of the most powerful and advanced civilizations known to Man?

I'm sure, any Man who values his heritage and the history of his people would not want his people's unique identity to die out.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Desert Fox said:


> If two individuals of different races, out of natural circumstances, genuinely love each other and marry each other then i have no authority or right to tell them they cannot do so.
> 
> However, everyone has the right to preserve their Race and Nation. No one should be labeled a "racist" for wanting to preserve the unique history, culture, civilization, and identity of his people. Would you want your native country of China, with its age old civilization and rich history, to be populated and taken over by people who don't respect it or its history and refuse to contribute towards it continued existence, and thus bringing about the end of one of the most powerful and advanced civilizations known to Man?
> 
> I'm sure, any Man who values his heritage and the history of his people would not want his people's unique identity to die out.



But the true Marxism is neither against or pro-interracial mix. You seem to confuse it with the extreme radical western liberals in Hollywood.

By default, you should expect the majority will still marry with their own people.


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## Desert Fox

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> But the true Marxism is neither against or pro-interracial mix. You seem to confuse it with the extreme radical western liberals in Hollywood.
> 
> By default, you should expect the majority will still marry with their own people.



Marxism as a whole is incompatible with Abrahamic religions. Particularly Islam and Christianity. In fact, Marx was against religion as a whole.

Even if we disregard the racial aspect, Marxism is anti-family, anti-religion, anti-tradition, etc and seeks to do the exact opposite of what is natural to humans and what has formed the basis of civilizations.

It promotes degeneracy and morally corrupt behaviors.




ChineseTiger1986 said:


> You seem to confuse it with the extreme radical western liberals in Hollywood.



Actually, what the Western Liberals are practicing is exactly Marxism in its purest form:

1). A complete open border policy.

2). Promotion of degeneracy in the form of homosexuality, lesbianism, and other disgusting behaviors not worthy of being mentioned. 

3). The radical promotion of Feminism and destruction of the Family structure. The portrayal of men as women/feminine like and women as male/masculine like.

4). Promotion of interracial dating (not marriage) and illicit relationships as well as other careless behaviors.

5). The so called "distribution of wealth" and making millions of people dependent on the ever decreasing working class/middle class tax money. Once the last reserve of working people diminish or loose their jobs due to the financial crisis in the West, these millions of immigrants and others who depended on the "distributed" wealth will have a hard time making a living.

6). Pitting one section of the population against the other (poor against rich, black against White). The so called "class struggle" in which the "peasants" overthrow the "bourgeois".


7). Against individuality. Against qualification (affirmative action).



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> By default, you should expect the majority will still marry with their own people.



Because that is what naturally occurs within Human nature.

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## ChineseTiger1986

The western liberals are against the communism more than anything else, they are not communists.

The communists are strictly against the homosexuality and pornography.

Not against the rich, but the natural resources should belong to everybody, do you think the air and water should belong to the private entity, not to the public?

The communism is against the exploitation and privatization of everything, it has nothing to do with those trashy Hollywood liberals.

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## Desert Fox

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The western liberals are against the communism more than anything else, they are not communists.
> 
> The communists are strictly against the homosexuality and pornography.


From my personal experience, most of these so called "Socialists" (they hijacked the term) promote Communism. They idolize Stalin and Marx, despise Hitler, support Israel or remain indifferent to the atrocities committed by that state. They are hardcore feminists and promote degeneracy. 

US Foreign Policy on Gay Rights Sparks Debate

They carry the rainbow banner and sing the American anthem in Soviet Style. 




ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Not against the rich, but the natural resources should belong to everybody, do you think the air and water should belong to the private entity, not to the public?


Of course, basic necessities belong to everyone. A Nations natural resource and human potential should be put to use for the benefit of its own people.

I am a Socialist BTW.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The communism is against the exploitation and privatization of everything, it has nothing to do with those trashy Hollywood liberals.



Not everything should be private, and not everything should be state owned. The main backbone for Socialism is Spiritualism and Moral obligation.

Communism, as it has been practiced in the past, is a failure.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Those radical western liberals are anarchists, they are just the tools of the rich bankers and oligarchs to deviate the real issues.

The true communist is always favoring a strong centralized government, it has something in common with the Nazi government, except the communist government will never advocate the racial supremacy and the survival of the fittest in a Spartan way like the Nazi did.

Something needs to be privatized, but not everything can be privatized, even Hitler was against the privatization of everything including the strategic industries and resources.

Hitler did declare the war against the Zionist bankers, it is also an important reason why they went after him.

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## p(-)0ENiX

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> As for the interracial marriage stuff, don't be 100% obsessive of againt it, but also don't be at the opposite side, the moderate approach is the best way.



I am not a 100% against it, provided the couple truly loves each other. I agree with *Desert Fox's* answer in post #196.

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## Desert Fox

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Those radical western liberals are anarchists, they are just the tools of the rich bankers and oligarchs to deviate the real issues.
> 
> The true communist is always favoring a strong centralized government, it has something in common with the Nazi government, except the communist government will never advocate the racial supremacy and the survival of the fittest in a Spartan way like the Nazi did.



Well, you have to understand a few things about National Socialist Germany. Hitler and the National Socialist put an emphasis on physical fitness and youth programs in order to bring an end to the rampant drug abuse amongst the young population of Germany which became rampant during the years following the War reparations imposed on Germany after WW1 and the financial crashes the German economy suffered from during the world wide economic depression.

Hitler didn't want a population of obese people with rampant health related problems like heart disease, liver disease, etc. Neither did he want drunkards and drug addicts.

When you keep people busy in productive activities they will be less prone to committing crimes, doing/selling drugs, etc.



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Something needs to be privatized, but not everything can be privatized, even Hitler was against the privatization of everything including the stragetic industries and resources.



National Socialism put emphasis on spiritualism and moral obligations of the German/European people by forming a common bond.

National Socialism encouraged individual effort (private enterprises) as long as it was to be used for the common benefit of the Nation/Race.

During the Second World War, the German Reich did assume control over strategic industries and resources, as did a lot of other non-Communist countries. 

Communism and Capitalism put emphasis on the material wealth;

Communism: Wealth should be distributed and everything is state owned. Class struggle in which the peasants/worker purge the wealthy class.

Capitalism: Wealth is owned by the few and Capital (material) is given more importance over labor (people).

National Socialism: Labor (human effort) precedes capital and material. Innovation is the result of human effort (labor). Therefore, human effort is given importance over material. Individual effort is encouraged, competition is encouraged, and everything is based on merit. Whatever results from the effort must be put into use for the benefit of the Nation and Race (people).

Spiritualism and moral obligation plays the major role in National Socialism. Class cooperation is encouraged, rather than class struggle.
*
Which is why National Socialist Germany was the most Scientifically and Technologically advanced nation of its time.*



ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Hitler did declare the war against the Zionist bankers, it is also an important reason why they went after him.



Hitler simply denied them the continued enslavement of the German people. It was the Bankers who declared war on Hitler and Germany.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Except the racial point of view, the national socialism is closer to communism than capitalism, and we can argue this later.

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## Desert Fox

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Except the racial point of view, the national socialism is closer to communism than capitalism, and we can argue this later.



But there are other differences between the two ideologies. National Socialism doesn't limit the individual from striving to be better than others. There is no "equal pay" or "equal wages". If someone has the potential of excelling in his field of expertise then he is encouraged to do so, and if his labor results in a invention then he is given due credit and more pay than others.

National Socialism takes into account Man's spiritual and material needs, but putting more emphasis on the spiritual and moral aspect.

Does National Socialism share a few things with Communism? Yes it does, but i'd have to say the difference are more prominent. National Socialism was the only form of Socialism that actually worked successfully in peace time (1933-1939) as well as war time (1939-1945).


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## Desert Fox

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Except the racial point of view, the national socialism is closer to communism than capitalism, and we can argue this later.



PS, Race was used as a unifying factor. Anything that unites a nation can substitute the racial aspect. It doesn't necessarily have to be race, but in the case of Germany Race was instrumental in uniting the country.


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## ChineseTiger1986

Desert Fox said:


> PS, Race was used as a unifying factor. Anything that unites a nation can substitute the racial aspect. It doesn't necessarily have to be race, but in the case of Germany Race was instrumental in uniting the country.



The modern PRC is actually very close to the National Socialism as you described, except CPC doesn't play the race card, instead they play the nationalist card, and they show more humanitarianism for the minorities.

But in the civilian sector, CPC is too capitalist, even more than the western nations, this is something that needs to be changed.

Because of the nearly 100% capitalist civilian sector, the Made in China civilian products are really bad in quality compared to our strategic industry such as our space program, 95% of success rate over 180 launches.

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## ChineseTiger1986

Desert Fox said:


> But there are other differences between the two ideologies. National Socialism doesn't limit the individual from striving to be better than others. There is no "equal pay" or "equal wages". If someone has the potential of excelling in his field of expertise then he is encouraged to do so, and if his labor results in a invention then he is given due credit and more pay than others.
> 
> National Socialism takes into account Man's spiritual and material desires, but putting more emphasis on the spiritual and moral aspect.
> 
> Does National Socialism share a few things with Communism? Yes it does, but i'd have to say the difference are more prominent. National Socialism was the only form of Socialism that actually worked successfully in peace time (1933-1939) as well as war time (1939-1945).



The modern PRC also believes that everyone are born equal at the starting point, but the individual success shouldn't be limited, since our society needs the competition and innovation via the individual effort.

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## vostok

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The Royal Scythians were actually Iranicized Corded Abashevo tribes (most eastern Balto-Slavic tribe), and they got brainwashed by the steppe Aryan supremacy, they tended to look down at the non-Iranian speaking forest Scythians (Slavs). But the recent genetic test shows that they were genetically identical to the Slavs.
> 
> Actually both Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian descended from the Proto-Indo-European Yamna culture in South Russia/Ukraine. About 6000 years ago, the two groups headed toward two different directions.
> 
> - The original Proto-Indo-European Yamna tribes were Mediterranean type.
> 
> - The Yamna tribes headed toward the northwest Baltic regions and mixed with the indigenous North Europeans to create the blonde Nordic Corded Ware (Balto-Slavic) tribes.
> 
> - The Yamna tribes headed towards the eastern Caspian steppe became the Indo-Iranian tribes and remained the same Mediterranean type as their PIE ancestor.
> 
> - Scythians carried R1a-Z283 and were the very blonde Nordic type like Balto-Slavic, but they got culturally brainwashed by the Aryan/Indo-Iranian tribes in the east.
> 
> But you are right, the steppe people were not that nice when it came to the tax and tribute, our ancestors also got often threatened and harrassed by the steppe nomads as well.



Nine. Every waves of nomads come to our steppe from the East. Kimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians, Huns, Pechenegs, Kipchak, Mongolo-Tatars, Nogais. And hougreds of small tribes and waves. This process was stopped only in 18 century.
Anyway, Russian began to settle in what is now southern Ukraine in the end of the 18th century, Crimean Khanate was conqered.
wiki
"Later, from the era of the Great Migration, the word "Scythians" was used in the Greek (Byzantine) sources for the names of all the completely different origin of the peoples who inhabited the Eurasian steppes and the northern Black Sea region: the sources III-IV centuries AD "Scythians" and often referred to as German-Goths, in the later Byzantine sources Scythians called the Eastern Slavs, Turkic Khazars and Pechenegs, and the related ancient Iranian-speaking Scythians, Alans."
Polish nobles (szlachta) considered themselves to be descendants of the Sarmatian - the people that replaced the Scythians. And the common people - Slavic.
Scythians - not Slavic and do not have anything to do in us.
A genetics - an experienced specialist using a multiplicity of genetic traits can prove anything.


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## ChineseTiger1986

But Turko-Mongols were Northeast Asian nomads, while Scythians are Northeast Europeans who spoke an Indo-European language, can't see they would be considered completely foreign to the ancient Slavic people.

Scythians and Persians were genetically different, but the only loose connection is that they all spoke the Iranian language group, but Scythian spoke the northeast group, while Persian spoke the southwest group, they were not mutually intelligible.

But of course, to you, the genetic is not important, while the language/custom/religion are the most important for the identity of an ethnic group.


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## Desert Fox

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The modern PRC is actually very close to the National Socialism as you described, except CPC doesn't play the race card, instead they play the nationalist card, and they show more humanitarianism for the minorities.
> 
> But in the civilian sector, CPC is too capitalist, even more than the western nations, this is something that needs to be changed.
> 
> Because of the nearly 100% capitalist civilian sector, the Made in China civilian products are really bad in quality compared to our strategic industry such as our space program, 95% of success rate over 180 launches.



Actually, the Racial aspect of National Socialist Germany was an important part of preserving the National fabric of the country. Thus *National* Socialism.

Racially homogenous countries are more successful and prosperous compared to racially mixed and multicultural countries due to the fact that there are less divisions within society. The more "diversity" in a society the more it is prone to becoming divided due to conflicting views, beliefs, ideologies, etc.


I guess you can say PRC and other states that formed after WW2 took a few ideas from Hitler's "Nazi" Germany. 

*True Communism* which was practiced by the Soviet Union during the time when National Socialism first made its appearance on the world stage as its own distinct ideology, was not what the PRC might have adopted from National Socialism.

Communism had more than 100 years to prove itself, it faltered or failed depending on the country that practiced it, and ultimately the largest Communist Country the USSR collapsed and disintegrated without any foreign army even setting foot on its soil. 

National Socialism, on the other hand, had 13 years to prove itself. It brought Germany out of the depression within 2-3 years (1933-1936). Within 4 years under Hitler's rule, Germany's unemployment was wiped out, to such an extent, that by 1938 Germany faced a labor shortage. Hitler's economic plans and their successful results were not at the expense of millions of lives the way Stalin's 5 year plans resulted in the deaths of millions of Soviet people. 

In the end, National Socialism didn't collapse on itself the way Communism did in the Soviet Union. Rather, it was the allied bombing raids on German cities, industrial centers, and finally the occupation and division of Germany and later the demonization of this ideology which killed it in the practical sense.




*
The Nazis came to power in 1933 when the German economy was in total collapse, with ruinous war-reparation obligations and zero prospects for foreign investment or credit. Through an independent monetary policy of sovereign credit and a full-employment public-works program, the Third Reich was able to turn a bankrupt Germany, stripped of overseas colonies, into the strongest economy in Europe within four years, even before armament spending began. (Henry C. K. Liu, "Nazism and the German Economic Miracle," Asia Times (May 24, 2005).*



* Germany issued debt-free and interest-free money from 1935 on, which accounts for Germanys startling rise from the depression to a world power in five years. The German government financed its entire operations from 1935 to 1945 without gold, and without debt. It took the entire Capitalist and Communist world to destroy the German revolution, and bring Europe back under the heel of the Bankers. - Billions for the Bankers, Debts for the People (1984), Sheldon Emry *
*

Hitler took over the privilege of manufacturing money, and not only physical moneys, but also financial ones. He took over the machinery of falsification and put it to work for the benefit of the people. Can you possibly imagine what would have come if this had infected a number of other states?- C. G. Rakovsky (Henry Makow, "Hitler Did Not Want War," March 21, 2004)*

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## iranigirl2

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Most Arabs were Christians during the pre-Islamic era.



I don't think that's right at all, Christianity never took roots in Arabia.

Most Arabs were pagans, they had their own religion, which was to worship their own gods and goddesses. 

After paganism, Judaism was the other religion in Arabia.

The first mention of Jews in the areas of modern-day Saudi Arabia dates back, by some accounts, to the time of the First Temple. Immigration to the Arabian Peninsula began in earnest in the 2nd century CE, and by the 6th and 7th centuries there was a considerable Jewish population in Hejaz, mostly in and around Medina.There were three main Jewish tribes in Medina before the rise of Islam in Arabia. These were the Banu Nadir, the Banu Qainuqa, and the Banu Qurayza. One Jewish tribe called Banu Nadir which were particularly hostile to the Islamic Prophet Mohamed had men killed there. Other Jewish tribes lived relatively peacefully under Muslim rule.

*Other Arabian Jewish tribes*

Other Arabian Jewish tribes in Muhammed's time:
Banu Awf
Banu Harith
Banu Jusham
Banu Alfageer
Banu Najjar
Banu Sa'ida
Banu Shutayba


*Here's another source:*

There are some materials on which to base a description of pre-Islamic religion, particularly in Mecca and the Hejaz. The book originally compiled by Ibn Ishaq around 740 A.D "The biography of the Prophet" passed on through notable transmitter Ibn Hisham translated by A. Guillaume 1st edition in 1955 gives an insight into the conditions pervailing in Mecca around Prophet's time. The Qur'an and the hadith, or recorded oral traditions, give some hints as to this religion. Islamic commentators have elaborated these hints into an account that, while coherent, is doubted by academics in part or in whole.

*Many of the tribes in Arabia had practiced Judaism*. Christianity is known to have been active in the region before the rise of Islam, especially unorthodox, possibly gnostic forms of it.


*Here's why Islam was able to expand so quickly :*

The early 7th century in Arabia began with the longest and most destructive period of the Byzantine&#8211;Sassanid Wars. It left both empires exhausted and susceptible to third-party attacks, particularly from nomadic Arabs united under a newly formed religion. According to historian George Liska, the "unnecessarily prolonged Byzantine&#8211;Persian conflict opened the way for Islam"

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## p(-)0ENiX

Desert Fox said:


> 3). The radical promotion of Feminism and destruction of the Family structure. The portrayal of men as women/feminine like and women as male/masculine like.



Speaking of feminism & its impact on society, check out this video:






It's quite interesting & funny at times, & I am happy to report that the interviewer literally ripped FEMEN's representative apart.

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## Tshering22

Desert Fox said:


> Well, you have to understand a few things about National Socialist Germany. Hitler and the National Socialist put an emphasis on physical fitness and youth programs in order to bring an end to the rampant drug abuse amongst the young population of Germany which became rampant during the years following the War reparations imposed on Germany after WW1 and the financial crashes the German economy suffered from during the world wide economic depression.
> 
> Hitler didn't want a population of obese people with rampant health related problems like heart disease, liver disease, etc. Neither did he want drunkards and drug addicts.
> 
> When you keep people busy in productive activities they will be less prone to committing crimes, doing/selling drugs, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> National Socialism put emphasis on spiritualism and moral obligations of the German/European people by forming a common bond.
> 
> National Socialism encouraged individual effort (private enterprises) as long as it was to be used for the common benefit of the Nation/Race.
> 
> During the Second World War, the German Reich did assume control over strategic industries and resources, as did a lot of other non-Communist countries.
> 
> Communism and Capitalism put emphasis on the material wealth;
> 
> Communism: Wealth should be distributed and everything is state owned. Class struggle in which the peasants/worker purge the wealthy class.
> 
> Capitalism: Wealth is owned by the few and Capital (material) is given more importance over labor (people).
> 
> National Socialism: Labor (human effort) precedes capital and material. Innovation is the result of human effort (labor). Therefore, human effort is given importance over material. Individual effort is encouraged, competition is encouraged, and everything is based on merit. Whatever results from the effort must be put into use for the benefit of the Nation and Race (people).
> 
> Spiritualism and moral obligation plays the major role in National Socialism. Class cooperation is encouraged, rather than class struggle.
> *
> Which is why National Socialist Germany was the most Scientifically and Technologically advanced nation of its time.*
> 
> 
> 
> Hitler simply denied them the continued enslavement of the German people. It was the Bankers who declared war on Hitler and Germany.



I am curious to know about this since you've dwelled so deep into this argument:

Why are the Jewish bankers so hell bent on putting themselves in the victim shoes?

What is their ultimate goal?

If Hitler was not guilty of the war crimes they say he was, then what happened?


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## Desert Fox

Tshering22 said:


> I am curious to know about this since you've dwelled so deep into this argument:
> 
> Why are the Jewish bankers so hell bent on putting themselves in the victim shoes?
> 
> What is their ultimate goal?
> 
> If Hitler was not guilty of the war crimes they say he was, then what happened?



This will require a great deal of research on your part as i too once asked my self the exact same questions at one point in the past but i found the answers through my own research.

The problem is that nowadays people depend on others to do the thinking for them, namely the mainstream media, which is obviously controlled by the very people in who's interest it is that we (the common people) not think for ourselves and just blindly tow along their propaganda.


I'll give you a few links to help you jump-start your research.


Hitler's Monetary System

How Hitler defied the Bankers

How Hitler Consolidated Power in Germany and Launched A Social Revolution-IHR

Regarding the War Crimes, that too would require your own research but again i will provide you a few links, however there is more that i suggest you look up for yourself:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...rried-about-growing-salafism.html#post4395841

And do look into this documentary too:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/genera...de-history-never-before-seen.html#post3934171


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## Desert Fox

*Ukraine divided over WWII legacy*

http://news.**********/ukraine-divided-over-wwii-legacy-100702056.html


CHERVONE, Ukraine (AP)  Ukrainians dressed in Nazi SS uniform trudge through trenches and fire model rifles in a reconstruction of a key battle against the Soviets during World War II. An Orthodox priest leads a ceremony for fallen soldiers of the Nazi unit, sprinkling his blessing over several men sporting swastikas who lower a coffin in a ritual reburial.

The scenes were part of commemorations last week of soldiers many Ukrainian nationalists  along with a smattering of hardcore ultra-rightists  hail as heroes. The men they are honoring belonged to the SS Galician division, a Nazi military unit made up mostly of Ukrainians, which fought Soviet troops during World War II.

More than 20 years since gaining independence from the Soviet Union, Ukraine remains painfully divided over the legacy of World War II and the actions of Ukrainian nationalist fighters, who are honored as heroes by some and condemned as traitors by others. Some of those fighters served under or cooperated with the Nazis, seeing a chance to overthrow the Soviet regime, while others fought both the Red Army and the Nazis.

"Ukraine is in our souls and hearts," said SS Galician division veteran Mykhailo Yamulyk, a gray-haired man in his late 80s, before the remains of some of his fellow soldiers were reburied in coffins draped with the yellow-and-blue Ukrainian flag at a cemetery in this small village in western Ukraine. "Those who say that we wore German uniform  yes, we did, and our weapons were German, but our hearts were full of Ukrainian blood and we never betrayed it."

One of Yamulyk's fellow SS Galician veterans is Michael Karkoc, a Minnesota man shown in an Associated Press investigation to have commanded a Nazi-led unit accused of atrocities. The annual commemorations of the Galician give an insight into the complex reaction that the Karkoc revelations have produced in Ukraine, in contrast to the near universal outrage they have stirred up in Poland, Germany and the United States.

Each year, competing rallies commemorating World War II are held throughout Ukraine, sometimes resulting in brawls. Much of the Russian-speaking east of the country celebrates the Red Army's victory over Nazi invaders, while in the Ukrainian-speaking west, where most of the anti-Soviet insurgents fought, monuments have been erected and streets have been named in their honor. Veterans receive government benefits, no matter which side they fought on during the war.

Politicians are also deeply divided on the subject. Former President Viktor Yushchenko, who steered Ukraine toward the West after leading the 2004 Orange Revolution, campaigned to have the nationalist insurgents honored as heroes, even though leading Western historians say many of their units had a hand in massacring civilians, including Jews and Poles. And the radical nationalist party Svoboda  a vocal force in parliament whose leaders have been accused of anti-Semitic and racist remarks  extolls those fighters.

The Party of Regions led by President Viktor Yanukovych, who is seen as more Russia-friendly, has campaigned against treating the men as heroes. But the party has exploited the anti-fascist cause to its advantage. In May, it organized a large rally in Kiev to protest fascism and call for tolerance  but after the event ended, pro-government activists clashed with opposition protesters and beat up two journalists trying to film the brawl.

Post-Soviet Ukraine has failed to investigate, prosecute or bring to trial a single Nazi war criminal, according to Efraim Zuroff, the top Nazi hunter with the Simon Wiesenthal Center. The same is true of other post-Communist countries with a record of Nazi collaboration such as Latvia, Estonia and Belarus. Pressed by the West, Lithuania put three Nazi criminals on trial, but waited until they were too old or unfit to be punished. In all of these countries, experts say, suspected Nazi collaborators were protected because of their role fighting the Soviets, considered by much of the population as the greater enemy.

"Ukraine's efforts or lack of efforts to investigate and prosecute Nazi war criminals is assessed as a total failure; they haven't done a damn thing," Zuroff said. "To bring such people to justice would be very politically unpopular in Eastern Europe."

Ukrainians sought independence during centuries of rule by the Russian and Austro-Hungarian empires as well as Poland, and seven decades as part of the Soviet Union. Subjugation under Poland lies at the heart of Ukraine's historic resentment against Poles. When Soviet Ukraine was overrun by the Nazis during World War II, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists initially cooperated with Hitler's forces, hoping to shake off the Soviet regime  which had collectivized farms, engineered a devastating famine that killed millions and imprisoned or executed regime opponents in droves. When leaders of the group realized the Nazis had no plans for an independent Ukraine, the group and its military wing switched to fighting both Stalin's and Hitler's forces. Other Ukrainian military units, such as the SS Galician Division or the Ukrainian Self Defense Legion, remained loyal to the Nazis.

Veterans of the Galician see themselves as freedom fighters.

Yevhen Kutsik, 86, was a 16-year-old boy when he took up arms and joined the SS Galician division after seeing "mountains of corpses of innocent tortured men, women and even children" left by the Soviets. "I fought for my motherland, for my people, for my country," Kutsik, clad in the division veterans' dark blue uniform and forage cap, told The Associated Press during the commemorations outside the western city of Lviv in late July. After the war, Kutsik served 12 years in a Soviet labor camp.

In April, a larger rally commemorating the SS Galician Division was held in Lviv. Men and women clad in traditional Ukrainian embroidered shirts marched peacefully in the center of the city waving the SS unit's blue and yellow banners  but there was also a clear neo-Nazi contingent in the mix. Some marchers wore Nazi SS caps or uniforms that appeared inspired by the Nazi Wehrmacht armed forces, while others gave Nazi salutes. A band of neo-Nazi skinheads from Russia marched alongside the Ukrainian nationalists, wearing T-shirts emblazoned with "SS Totenkopf"  in apparent reference to the SS unit that supplied death camp guards.

At another recent commemoration in the village of Yaseniv outside Lviv, a young man with the SS Galician division's lion symbol tattooed on his leg wore a T-shirt emblazoned with the neo-Nazi slogan: "White pride worldwide."

In much of the post-Soviet Union, people generally do not receive strong education regarding Holocaust horrors. Such ignorance plays a strong role in events such as the ones in Yaseniv and Chervone that glorify Nazi imagery  and most participants do not belong to the hard right. The tendency to overlook Nazi crimes, however, does breed tolerance of the few neo-Nazi elements among them, and can also lead to vulnerability to the xenophobic rhetoric of parties such as Svoboda.

Rallies in honor of soldiers who fought in Nazi units during WWII have been held in Latvia and Estonia over the past years, also sparking controversy.

Many Ukrainian historians see the insurgents, including those who collaborated with the Nazis, as resistance fighters and victims of unjust and brutal circumstances. Many Western historians say some of them were also involved in massacring civilians, such as Jews, Poles and Soviet sympathizers. The killings of Jews represent "a large and inexpugnable stain on the records of the Ukrainian national insurgency," writes John-Paul Himka, a historian at Canada's University of Alberta who studies the Holocaust in Ukraine. Historians are still weighing evidence on whether the SS Galician had a role in Nazi war crimes, Himka said.

An open discussion of the legacy of the Ukrainian insurgents was taboo during the Soviet era, with school children taught that they were enemies of the people. With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, secret archives opened up and witness accounts and documents became accessible, some portraying the nationalist fighters in a heroic light, others pointing to the atrocities they had committed.

"Now it has become open and with it a lot of pain has emerged," said Anatoly Podolsky, head of the Ukrainian Center for Holocaust Studies. "What cannot be done is to label them all as (Nazi) collaborators. Or as heroes. They are not all collaborators and they are not all heroes."

Podolsky and others say that a thorough investigation and condemnation of Nazi war crimes in Ukraine should be conducted alongside a similar review of the crimes committed by Soviet authorities, which also hasn't taken place.

Born in the Lutsk region, which is now part of western Ukraine, Karkoc emigrated to the United States shortly after the war by lying to American authorities about his role in the Ukrainian Self Defense Legion, which is accused of torching villages filled with women and children. The AP investigation found evidence indicating that Karkoc was at the scene of the massacres, although no records implicate him directly in them. When reached for comment at his home in Minnesota, Karkoc refused to discuss his past.

The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry declined to talk about the Karkoc case. The Prosecutor's Office said Karkoc's case would be reviewed by Ukraine's security agency.

But Vadim Kolesnichenko, a lawmaker with the president's party, asked the prosecutors to seek Karkoc's extradition from the United States and to put him on trial in Ukraine. "Nazi crimes against humanity have no expiration date," Kolesnichenko wrote in a blog posting.

Activists on the other side of the debate flocked to Karkoc's defense.

Rostislav Novozhenets, head of Ukraine-Rus, a group which studies Soviet repression against Ukrainians, said fighters like Karkoc cooperated with the Nazis for the sake of freeing their homeland from the totalitarian Soviet regime.

"Was it better to join the Soviet army, the army of a country infamous for repressions and the Holodmor (Stalin-era famine), which killed millions of its own citizens? The USSR was enemy No. 1," Novozhenets said. "That is why these boys, these Ukrainians, the representatives of an oppressed nation, cannot be condemned: They fought for an independent Ukraine and that is why they should be honored as fighters for independence."

___

Svetlana Fedas contributed to this report from Lviv, Ukraine.


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## Desert Fox

*Ukrainians Commemorate Waffen SS Galician Unit*


http://news.**********/ukraine-divided-over-wwii-legacy-100702056.html















































*NATIONAL RISING: Ukraine*


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## vostok

Desert Fox said:


> *Ukraine divided over WWII legacy*
> 
> http://news.**********/ukraine-divided-over-wwii-legacy-100702056.html
> 
> 
> CHERVONE, Ukraine (AP) &#8212; Ukrainians dressed in Nazi SS uniform trudge through trenches and fire model rifles in a reconstruction of a key battle against the Soviets during World War II. An Orthodox priest leads a ceremony for fallen soldiers of the Nazi unit, sprinkling his blessing over several men sporting swastikas who lower a coffin in a ritual reburial.
> 
> The scenes were part of commemorations last week of soldiers many Ukrainian nationalists &#8212; along with a smattering of hardcore ultra-rightists &#8212; hail as heroes. The men they are honoring belonged to the SS Galician division, a Nazi military unit made up mostly of Ukrainians, which fought Soviet troops during World War II.
> 
> More than 20 years since gaining independence from the Soviet Union, Ukraine remains painfully divided over the legacy of World War II and the actions of Ukrainian nationalist fighters, who are honored as heroes by some and condemned as traitors by others. Some of those fighters served under or cooperated with the Nazis, seeing a chance to overthrow the Soviet regime, while others fought both the Red Army and the Nazis.
> 
> "Ukraine is in our souls and hearts," said SS Galician division veteran Mykhailo Yamulyk, a gray-haired man in his late 80s, before the remains of some of his fellow soldiers were reburied in coffins draped with the yellow-and-blue Ukrainian flag at a cemetery in this small village in western Ukraine. "Those who say that we wore German uniform &#8212; yes, we did, and our weapons were German, but our hearts were full of Ukrainian blood and we never betrayed it."
> 
> One of Yamulyk's fellow SS Galician veterans is Michael Karkoc, a Minnesota man shown in an Associated Press investigation to have commanded a Nazi-led unit accused of atrocities. The annual commemorations of the Galician give an insight into the complex reaction that the Karkoc revelations have produced in Ukraine, in contrast to the near universal outrage they have stirred up in Poland, Germany and the United States.
> 
> Each year, competing rallies commemorating World War II are held throughout Ukraine, sometimes resulting in brawls. Much of the Russian-speaking east of the country celebrates the Red Army's victory over Nazi invaders, while in the Ukrainian-speaking west, where most of the anti-Soviet insurgents fought, monuments have been erected and streets have been named in their honor. Veterans receive government benefits, no matter which side they fought on during the war.
> 
> Politicians are also deeply divided on the subject. Former President Viktor Yushchenko, who steered Ukraine toward the West after leading the 2004 Orange Revolution, campaigned to have the nationalist insurgents honored as heroes, even though leading Western historians say many of their units had a hand in massacring civilians, including Jews and Poles. And the radical nationalist party Svoboda &#8212; a vocal force in parliament whose leaders have been accused of anti-Semitic and racist remarks &#8212; extolls those fighters.
> 
> The Party of Regions led by President Viktor Yanukovych, who is seen as more Russia-friendly, has campaigned against treating the men as heroes. But the party has exploited the anti-fascist cause to its advantage. In May, it organized a large rally in Kiev to protest fascism and call for tolerance &#8212; but after the event ended, pro-government activists clashed with opposition protesters and beat up two journalists trying to film the brawl.
> 
> Post-Soviet Ukraine has failed to investigate, prosecute or bring to trial a single Nazi war criminal, according to Efraim Zuroff, the top Nazi hunter with the Simon Wiesenthal Center. The same is true of other post-Communist countries with a record of Nazi collaboration such as Latvia, Estonia and Belarus. Pressed by the West, Lithuania put three Nazi criminals on trial, but waited until they were too old or unfit to be punished. In all of these countries, experts say, suspected Nazi collaborators were protected because of their role fighting the Soviets, considered by much of the population as the greater enemy.
> 
> "Ukraine's efforts or lack of efforts to investigate and prosecute Nazi war criminals is assessed as a total failure; they haven't done a damn thing," Zuroff said. "To bring such people to justice would be very politically unpopular in Eastern Europe."
> 
> Ukrainians sought independence during centuries of rule by the Russian and Austro-Hungarian empires as well as Poland, and seven decades as part of the Soviet Union. Subjugation under Poland lies at the heart of Ukraine's historic resentment against Poles. When Soviet Ukraine was overrun by the Nazis during World War II, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists initially cooperated with Hitler's forces, hoping to shake off the Soviet regime &#8212; which had collectivized farms, engineered a devastating famine that killed millions and imprisoned or executed regime opponents in droves. When leaders of the group realized the Nazis had no plans for an independent Ukraine, the group and its military wing switched to fighting both Stalin's and Hitler's forces. Other Ukrainian military units, such as the SS Galician Division or the Ukrainian Self Defense Legion, remained loyal to the Nazis.
> 
> Veterans of the Galician see themselves as freedom fighters.
> 
> Yevhen Kutsik, 86, was a 16-year-old boy when he took up arms and joined the SS Galician division after seeing "mountains of corpses of innocent tortured men, women and even children" left by the Soviets. "I fought for my motherland, for my people, for my country," Kutsik, clad in the division veterans' dark blue uniform and forage cap, told The Associated Press during the commemorations outside the western city of Lviv in late July. After the war, Kutsik served 12 years in a Soviet labor camp.
> 
> In April, a larger rally commemorating the SS Galician Division was held in Lviv. Men and women clad in traditional Ukrainian embroidered shirts marched peacefully in the center of the city waving the SS unit's blue and yellow banners &#8212; but there was also a clear neo-Nazi contingent in the mix. Some marchers wore Nazi SS caps or uniforms that appeared inspired by the Nazi Wehrmacht armed forces, while others gave Nazi salutes. A band of neo-Nazi skinheads from Russia marched alongside the Ukrainian nationalists, wearing T-shirts emblazoned with "SS Totenkopf" &#8212; in apparent reference to the SS unit that supplied death camp guards.
> 
> At another recent commemoration in the village of Yaseniv outside Lviv, a young man with the SS Galician division's lion symbol tattooed on his leg wore a T-shirt emblazoned with the neo-Nazi slogan: "White pride worldwide."
> 
> In much of the post-Soviet Union, people generally do not receive strong education regarding Holocaust horrors. Such ignorance plays a strong role in events such as the ones in Yaseniv and Chervone that glorify Nazi imagery &#8212; and most participants do not belong to the hard right. The tendency to overlook Nazi crimes, however, does breed tolerance of the few neo-Nazi elements among them, and can also lead to vulnerability to the xenophobic rhetoric of parties such as Svoboda.
> 
> Rallies in honor of soldiers who fought in Nazi units during WWII have been held in Latvia and Estonia over the past years, also sparking controversy.
> 
> Many Ukrainian historians see the insurgents, including those who collaborated with the Nazis, as resistance fighters and victims of unjust and brutal circumstances. Many Western historians say some of them were also involved in massacring civilians, such as Jews, Poles and Soviet sympathizers. The killings of Jews represent "a large and inexpugnable stain on the records of the Ukrainian national insurgency," writes John-Paul Himka, a historian at Canada's University of Alberta who studies the Holocaust in Ukraine. Historians are still weighing evidence on whether the SS Galician had a role in Nazi war crimes, Himka said.
> 
> An open discussion of the legacy of the Ukrainian insurgents was taboo during the Soviet era, with school children taught that they were enemies of the people. With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, secret archives opened up and witness accounts and documents became accessible, some portraying the nationalist fighters in a heroic light, others pointing to the atrocities they had committed.
> 
> "Now it has become open and with it a lot of pain has emerged," said Anatoly Podolsky, head of the Ukrainian Center for Holocaust Studies. "What cannot be done is to label them all as (Nazi) collaborators. Or as heroes. They are not all collaborators and they are not all heroes."
> 
> Podolsky and others say that a thorough investigation and condemnation of Nazi war crimes in Ukraine should be conducted alongside a similar review of the crimes committed by Soviet authorities, which also hasn't taken place.
> 
> Born in the Lutsk region, which is now part of western Ukraine, Karkoc emigrated to the United States shortly after the war by lying to American authorities about his role in the Ukrainian Self Defense Legion, which is accused of torching villages filled with women and children. The AP investigation found evidence indicating that Karkoc was at the scene of the massacres, although no records implicate him directly in them. When reached for comment at his home in Minnesota, Karkoc refused to discuss his past.
> 
> The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry declined to talk about the Karkoc case. The Prosecutor's Office said Karkoc's case would be reviewed by Ukraine's security agency.
> 
> But Vadim Kolesnichenko, a lawmaker with the president's party, asked the prosecutors to seek Karkoc's extradition from the United States and to put him on trial in Ukraine. "Nazi crimes against humanity have no expiration date," Kolesnichenko wrote in a blog posting.
> 
> Activists on the other side of the debate flocked to Karkoc's defense.
> 
> Rostislav Novozhenets, head of Ukraine-Rus, a group which studies Soviet repression against Ukrainians, said fighters like Karkoc cooperated with the Nazis for the sake of freeing their homeland from the totalitarian Soviet regime.
> 
> "Was it better to join the Soviet army, the army of a country infamous for repressions and the Holodmor (Stalin-era famine), which killed millions of its own citizens? The USSR was enemy No. 1," Novozhenets said. "That is why these boys, these Ukrainians, the representatives of an oppressed nation, cannot be condemned: They fought for an independent Ukraine and that is why they should be honored as fighters for independence."
> 
> ___
> 
> Svetlana Fedas contributed to this report from Lviv, Ukraine.



This is not the Ukrainians, but Western Ukrainians(3 millons of 44). At a time when all progressive mankind fought against Nazism, these pigs served to Nazis. At the same time, they carried out the dirty work that the Germans disdain - shootings, punitive operations against civilians, security concetration camps.
Western Ukrainians - in fact not even really Slavic, but mixed Slavic-Hungarian-Romanian. Although in ancient times, they were part of Russia, but betrayed their roots, their name and even the Orthodox faith. In rest Ukraine, they are hated.


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## flamer84

vostok said:


> This is not the Ukrainians, but Western Ukrainians(3 millons of 44). At a time when all progressive mankind fought against Nazism, these pigs served to Nazis. At the same time, they carried out the dirty work that the Germans disdain - shootings, punitive operations against civilians, security concetration camps.
> Western Ukrainians - in fact not even really Slavic, but mixed Slavic-Hungarian-Romanian. Although in ancient times, they were part of Russia, but betrayed their roots, their name and even the Orthodox faith. In rest Ukraine, they are hated.



So,they are romanians but in ancient?!? times they were part of Russia,cause we know Russia is an ancient empire...he,he,he...altough history tells us that Russia came in what is today western Ukraine barely 250 years ago...he,he,he comrade vostok gets caught in its own web of lies and stupidity.

Contrary to vostok's soviet propaganda romanians weren't fascists,they had other ideology.

Iron Guard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Anubis

flamer84 said:


> So,they are romanians but in ancient?!? times they were part of Russia,cause we know Russia is an ancient empire...he,he,he...altough history tells us that Russia came in what is today western Ukraine barely 250 years ago...he,he,he comrade vostok gets caught in its own web of lies and stupidity.
> 
> Contrary to vostok's soviet propaganda romanians weren't fascists,they had other ideology.
> 
> Iron Guard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The wiki article says Iron Guards were facists...but you say you weren't!


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## flamer84

RiasatKhan said:


> The wiki article says Iron Guards were facists...but you say you weren't!



They like to lump all nationalist movements together,they had some common ground like anti semitism,the roman salute but the ideology was different.Unlike the fascists,the Iron Guard were religious fundamentalists promoting orthodox christianity as the sole religion of Romania and the only salvation,combining religion with nationalism and very often mysticism,unlike the fascists they had suicide brigades( sounds terribly familiar nowadays),they were also called "The Legion of the Archangel Mihail".Like other movements in Europe,they're making a slow but steady comeback due to the widening financial crisis.


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## Anubis

flamer84 said:


> They like to lump all nationalist movements together,they had some common ground like anti semitism,the roman salute but the ideology was different.Unlike the fascists,the Iron Guard were religious fundamentalists promoting orthodox christianity as the sole religion of Romania and the only salvation,combining religion with nationalism and very often mysticism,unlike the fascists they had suicide brigades( sounds terribly familiar nowadays),they were also called "The Legion of the Archangel Mihail".Like other movements in Europe,they're making a slow but steady comeback due to the widening financial crisis.



Nationalist movements work fine until they go overboard....you one of them??


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## flamer84

RiasatKhan said:


> Nationalist movements work fine until they go overboard....you one of them??



No,and i do not see them as a nationalist movement,not even fascists as i've said ,i see them more as the romanian version of the taliban.

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## DejanSRB

Hey flamer84,how we take care of Jobbik faschist anti-romanian,anti-serbian,anti-slovakian movement?

They even have support from Moscow.

Look at this "
Gábor Vona had a lecture at Lomonosov University


Gábor Vona had a lecture at Lomonosov University

Last week Gábor Vona visited Moscow on an invitation. He was invited by a professor of Lomonosov University, Prof. Alexandr Dugin, to present a lecture on the topic of "Russia and Europe".

Prof. Dugin is the former geopolitical advisor of President Putin and now he advises the Speaker of the Duma, the Russian Parliament. Gábor Vona met several leading politicians and had negotiations with them about the important issues of Hungarian-Russian relations. He met Ivan Dmitriyevich Grachov, the president of the Russian Parliament's energy policy committee and Vasiliy Tarasyuk, the vice-president of the same committee, who is also the vice-president of the Russian-Hungarian friendship group. He also spoke with Leonid Ivanovich Kalashnikov, the vice-president of the foreign affairs committee; two government MPs Yevgeniy Fedorov and Anton Vasilyevich Romanov as well as Alexei Anatolyevich Starikov, the vice-president of the Russian gas-industry association. 

America: Europe's deformed offspring

The main topics of the discussions were the economic relations of the two countries, the potential Hungarian export and the crisis of the Union - Gábor Vona states in his post. After these meetings he held his presentation at the sociology department of Lomonosov University. The lecture was attended by approximately fifty students and teachers. 

In his lecture, he referred to America as the deformed offspring of Europe and the EU as the traitor of our continent. In his view, Russia represents Europe much better than either of the two above, as it preserves its traditions and does not follow the culture of money and the masses. He said that the US could survive by looting and exploiting North America, and this life without traditions and culture was spread to Europe. In his view, Europe has become the servant and a sort of member state of the US, and their economies are so intertwined that a US bankruptcy would bring down Europe as well. 

I cant post links,but put in Google Search "Gabor Vona had a lecture in Lomonosov University".They want rebirth of "Great Hungarian" dream.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## vostok

DejanSRB said:


> Hey flamer84,how we take care of Jobbik faschist anti-romanian,anti-serbian,anti-slovakian movement?
> 
> They even have support from Moscow.
> 
> Look at this "
> Gábor Vona had a lecture at Lomonosov University
> 
> 
> Gábor Vona had a lecture at Lomonosov University
> 
> Last week Gábor Vona visited Moscow on an invitation. He was invited by a professor of Lomonosov University, Prof. Alexandr Dugin, to present a lecture on the topic of "Russia and Europe".
> 
> Prof. Dugin is the former geopolitical advisor of President Putin and now he advises the Speaker of the Duma, the Russian Parliament. Gábor Vona met several leading politicians and had negotiations with them about the important issues of Hungarian-Russian relations. He met Ivan Dmitriyevich Grachov, the president of the Russian Parliament's energy policy committee and Vasiliy Tarasyuk, the vice-president of the same committee, who is also the vice-president of the Russian-Hungarian friendship group. He also spoke with Leonid Ivanovich Kalashnikov, the vice-president of the foreign affairs committee; two government MPs Yevgeniy Fedorov and Anton Vasilyevich Romanov as well as Alexei Anatolyevich Starikov, the vice-president of the Russian gas-industry association.
> 
> America: Europe's deformed offspring
> 
> The main topics of the discussions were the economic relations of the two countries, the potential Hungarian export and the crisis of the Union - Gábor Vona states in his post. After these meetings he held his presentation at the sociology department of Lomonosov University. The lecture was attended by approximately fifty students and teachers.
> 
> In his lecture, he referred to America as the deformed offspring of Europe and the EU as the traitor of our continent. In his view, Russia represents Europe much better than either of the two above, as it preserves its traditions and does not follow the culture of money and the masses. He said that the US could survive by looting and exploiting North America, and this life without traditions and culture was spread to Europe. In his view, Europe has become the servant and a sort of member state of the US, and their economies are so intertwined that a US bankruptcy would bring down Europe as well.
> 
> I cant post links,but put in Google Search "Gabor Vona had a lecture in Lomonosov University".They want rebirth of "Great Hungarian" dream.



Hungarians always has negative attitude towards Russia - they had reason to. In 1848, it was Russian troops suppressed the Hungarian uprising and saved from the destruction the Habsburg Empire.
But now the Hungarians go to Moscow on their own for advice, support and money. Why? Because they do not want in Hungary there were signs of moral degradation and decline of culture - the legalization of homosexuality, anti-culture, the elimination of sovereignty, the destruction of Christian values &#8203;&#8203;and so on.
Every country in Europe in which will come to power not a puppet of Washington but the patriots who want to save the country from destruction - their representatives will travel to Moscow. Because no one can help them exept Russia.


----------



## flamer84

DejanSRB said:


> Hey flamer84,how we take care of Jobbik faschist anti-romanian,anti-serbian,anti-slovakian movement?
> 
> They even have support from Moscow.
> 
> Look at this "
> Gábor Vona had a lecture at Lomonosov University
> 
> 
> Gábor Vona had a lecture at Lomonosov University
> 
> Last week Gábor Vona visited Moscow on an invitation. He was invited by a professor of Lomonosov University, Prof. Alexandr Dugin, to present a lecture on the topic of "Russia and Europe".
> 
> Prof. Dugin is the former geopolitical advisor of President Putin and now he advises the Speaker of the Duma, the Russian Parliament. Gábor Vona met several leading politicians and had negotiations with them about the important issues of Hungarian-Russian relations. He met Ivan Dmitriyevich Grachov, the president of the Russian Parliament's energy policy committee and Vasiliy Tarasyuk, the vice-president of the same committee, who is also the vice-president of the Russian-Hungarian friendship group. He also spoke with Leonid Ivanovich Kalashnikov, the vice-president of the foreign affairs committee; two government MPs Yevgeniy Fedorov and Anton Vasilyevich Romanov as well as Alexei Anatolyevich Starikov, the vice-president of the Russian gas-industry association.
> 
> America: Europe's deformed offspring
> 
> The main topics of the discussions were the economic relations of the two countries, the potential Hungarian export and the crisis of the Union - Gábor Vona states in his post. After these meetings he held his presentation at the sociology department of Lomonosov University. The lecture was attended by approximately fifty students and teachers.
> 
> In his lecture, he referred to America as the deformed offspring of Europe and the EU as the traitor of our continent. In his view, Russia represents Europe much better than either of the two above, as it preserves its traditions and does not follow the culture of money and the masses. He said that the US could survive by looting and exploiting North America, and this life without traditions and culture was spread to Europe. In his view, Europe has become the servant and a sort of member state of the US, and their economies are so intertwined that a US bankruptcy would bring down Europe as well.
> 
> I cant post links,but put in Google Search "Gabor Vona had a lecture in Lomonosov University".They want rebirth of "Great Hungarian" dream.



The hungarian revizionism is the greatest threat facing us right now,not because Hungary is strong but because they have a powerful lobby in Washington.What happened in Kosovo might happen in Transylvania and Vojvodina.The russians are using the hungarians to scare Romania into joining the Eurasian Union,the russians actually dislike hungarians more than romanians.

I will translate a text by Alexandr Dughin and his opinion about Romania and her future role.

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## DejanSRB

We must fight back,my opinion is that Vojvodina will bi first.Why?Becouse our national pride is on the edge of the existance,if you say "I am Serbian patriot" our media will marked you as nationalistic scum,and becouse of Albanians stole our territory,so we are weak now in the eyes of Jobbik.But Sun Tzu says "Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.&#8221;

Oh mate I didnt know that Alexandar Dugin is Russian Zbignew Brzezinski.So Moscow freely talk about their vision of New Order in Europe and World orchestred by them?

Vostok.You will support Hungarians in their struggle to reunite Great Hungary?Becouse they come first to Moscow for help.


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## sovcomflot

DejanSRB said:


> We must fight back,my opinion is that Vojvodina will bi first.Why?Becouse our national pride is on the edge of the existance,if you say "I am Serbian patriot" our media will marked you as nationalistic scum,and becouse of Albanians stole our territory,so we are weak now in the eyes of Jobbik.But Sun Tzu says "Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.&#8221;
> 
> Oh mate I didnt know that Alexandar Dugin is Russian Zbignew Brzezinski.So Moscow freely talk about their vision of New Order in Europe and Euroasia maybe World is next?
> 
> Vostok.You will support Hungarians in their struggle to reunite Great Hungary?



I think there are prophecies of a coming 1000 year Russian empire.


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## vostok

DejanSRB said:


> We must fight back,my opinion is that Vojvodina will bi first.Why?Becouse our national pride is on the edge of the existance,if you say "I am Serbian patriot" our media will marked you as nationalistic scum,and becouse of Albanians stole our territory,so we are weak now in the eyes of Jobbik.But Sun Tzu says "Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.
> 
> Oh mate I didnt know that Alexandar Dugin is Russian Zbignew Brzezinski.So Moscow freely talk about their vision of New Order in Europe and World orchestred by them?
> 
> Vostok.You will support Hungarians in their struggle to reunite Great Hungary?Becouse they come first to Moscow for help.



Of course Russia will not support the territorial claims of Hungary to neighbors. And especially - to Serbia. You know, when in 1999, the U.S. bombing of Yugoslavia, the Russian Strategic Missile Forces were put on red alert - in fact, almost started a nuclear war. But then president Boris Yeltsin was a heavy drinker and he did not do anything, did not give the orders. In Russia, people are very warm refer to Serbia and Montenegro. Even to Bulgaria - in spite of the fact that the blood of Russian soldiers liberated the Bulgarians and then they fought against us in both world wars.
Serbs do not have to worry. As far as I know, Russia is already building in Serbia airfield dual purpose - first for the Ministry of Emergency Situations, but it can be quickly converted for military aircrafts.
And Hungary Russia support because we have the same goal - to get rid the world from financial dictatorship of the United States, to protect the true values &#8203;&#8203;- family (true family, not a couple of freaks), sovereign state, faith in God and so on.

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## sovcomflot

@vostok and @DejanSRB, I saw the statements of Alexander Dugin and what is saying is bloody right. We are being set up for a financial collapse and then a dictatorship by the anglo-american elite on a global level.


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## SOHEIL

Great Hungary !?

the only thing the hungarians are great at ( right now ) is sending their Hot sluts into america for a high performance in dirty movies !!!

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## vostok

sovcomflot said:


> @vostok and @DejanSRB, I saw the statements of Alexander Dugin and what is saying is bloody right. We are being set up for a financial collapse and then a dictatorship by the anglo-american elite on a global level.



Dugin as a political scientist and philosopher - I really like. But I would not let him into the real power of a cannon shot. He is cynical and angry - Russian has always belonged to the defeated enemy with a big heart, but he can't do so.


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## sovcomflot

vostok said:


> Dugin as a political scientist and philosopher - I really like. But I would not let him into the real power of a cannon shot. He is cynical and angry - Russian has always belonged to the defeated enemy with a big heart, but he can't do so.



Yes,Vostok,I agree .He too like Ivanshov or Zhirinovsky would start off a world war if he takes power. I can see it.He's right on the plans of the anglo-american elite though.


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## flamer84

Geopolitics of Romania.

by Alexandr Dughin

1.Romanian geniuses and romanian identity.

Romania has given the world,especially in the 20th century,a whole range of world class geniuses:Nae Ionescu,Mircea Eliade,Emil Cioran,Eugen Ionescu,Stefan Lupascu,Jean Parvulescu,Vsile Lovinescu,Mihail Valsan and many others.

Altough a small country in Eastern Europe,Romania had,in the intelectual field a semnificative contribution to civilisation,comparable to that of the greau european nations,almost surpassing them.This caracteristic of romanian intelectualism reflects the spirit of european thought,indissolubly connected with the spirit of tradition,having its origins,with the ground,roots and tendencies in Antiquity as well as in the eternal european orthodox Orient,which remained virtually unchanged.

The italian professor Claudio Mutti in his article "Mircea Eliade and the unity of Eurasia" refers to the "eurasian nature of the romanian culture".He quotes Eliade:"I felt the descendat and heir of an interesting culture,because it's situated between two worlds:the western world,pure european,and the oriental world.I draw my roots from this two worlds.The western one,through the latin language and by the roman inheritance in customs.But,i was also drawing my roots from a culture influenced by the Orient and rooted in the neolithic.All this are true for a romanian but I think that they are just as true for a bulgarian,a serbo-croat,and finally for the Balkans,for south-eastern Europe and a part of Russia."(M. Eliade, L&#8217;épreuve du Labyrinthe, Entrétiens avec Claude-Henri Rocquet, Pierre Belfond, Paris, 1978, p. 26 &#8211; 27)

..............................................................................................................................

2.Romania and the structure of her geopolitics option.(euroatlantism and eurocontinentalism)

And now,a few words about the geoplitics of Romania.In the current conditions the term of "Romania's geoplitics" is not apropiate if we consider Romania as a subject of geopolitics.In the architecture of the contemporary world such subject doesn't exist.This comes from the logic of globalist implementation,situation in which the problem is presented thus:there will be one World State,with one world goverment,ruled and dominated by the "rich West",mostly by the USA or an equilibrium will be established between the "large spaces" (Grossraum) of the "new empires" which will integrate whate wete,until then,"nation states".In our world the passing from sovereign nation states will be made towards a world goverment(unipolar world) or towards a new world empire(multipolar world).

Romania's size as a state doesn't allow us to say that in both cases Romania,not even theoretically can become a "pol" ,situatian in which even today's Russia,with all her nuclear armament,natural resources and messianic history finds herself.

Under such conditions,"the geoplotics of Romania" falls under the category "geoploitics of a united Europe".This fact is not just a present political certainty,Romania beeing a member of the EU,but also inevitably comes from her's geoplitical situation.But more then that the "geoplitic of a united Europe" herself is not something guaranteed and secure.Even Europe as a whole,the EU,can count on sovereignity only in a multipolar world and only in such a case Europe will be sovereign and therefore,Romania as a part of it will be sovereign.Adopting the unipolar model of american dominance which refuses Europe's sovereignity,will afect Romania to,as she's a part of Europe.
...........................................................................................................................


3.Geopolitics of the "sanitary cordon"

In the question of establishing the geoplitic identity of Europe we can identify the next model:-the countries of "New Europe"-eastern european countries which tend to have a strong rusophobe tendency,thus joining the euro-atlantic orientation and distancing themselves from the actual continental tendencies of "Old Europe"-firstly France and Germany(the UK is a traditional american ally).This situation has a long history:Estern Europe was a permanent area of fighting between Europe and Russia an example beeing that in the 19th and begining of the 20th century the UK deliberately used this region as a "sanitary cordon" conceived to prevent an eventual russo-german alliance which would prevent the end of the anglo-saxon dominance in the world.Even in our days the same thing happens,the only difference beeing that today the emphasis is on energy projects,in the countries of the "sanitary cordon" beeing introduced the ideea that is also a a retribution for the soviet occupation in the 20th century.New arguements,old geopolitics.

.........................(i am skipping many parts,it's long and i try to present main ideeas).................


4.Greater Romania.

How can we understand in this situation the nationalist geopolitic project of Romania,known as "Greater Romania"? First of all it's about the historical tendency to build up the romanian national state occured in different historical and geopolitical situations.Here we can rely on history,starting with the ancient geto-dacians,mentioning Burebista and Decebal.Later on,the principalities of Moldova and Romanian Country(Valahia) were formed ,states that existed independently untill their conquering by the turks.

It's worthy the mention of Michael the Brave the one who managed at the begining of the 17th century the union between Valahia,Moldova and Transilvania.Romania won her national independence only in the 19th century,this fact beeing recognised at the Berlin Congress in 1878.Romania's strategic weight depended,even in the conditiond of her independence,by the geopolitical forces in her vecinity.It was a relative and fragile sovereignity based on the external power balance between the South (Ottoman empire),West (Austro-Hungary,Germany,France,England) and East(Russia).Therefore the "Greater Romania" project has remained an utopy altough it took a teoretical integral expression with the plans of building a romanian traditionalist state by the teoreticians of the "Iron Guard"(Corneliu Zelea Codreanu,Horia Sima),and,in the next period the Bucharest Real Politik was forced by bigger forces than Romania's potential, to choose,Antonescu chose Germany,Ceausescu the Soviet Union.

...............................................................................................................

5.Using romanian nationalism by the "atlantism"


One of the most obvious usage of the "Greater Romania" ideea manifests herself in our days when this ideea is beeing used in the interest of atlantism.This has a clear objective:romanian nationalism(perfectly legitim and reasonable at its core) in Real Politik appealing to the ideea of integrating the Republic of Moldova within Romania.It looks like all flows naturally.But this legitimate wish to unite a sinle ethinc group into one country,in the conditions that this country is a NATO member will lead to the frontieres of this organization(NATO) even closer to Russia,and,in this case,the contradictions between Russia and the EU will only grow.In other terms the national utopia "Greater Romania" in practic,transforms itself in a simple extension of the "sanitary cordon",which will not benefit the EU but only the US and atlantism.

To the integration of Moldova we can add Transnistria which has a strategical position for Russia in this region.
................................................................................................................................


In a certain stage Transnistria will become a very important base for Russia in this region.In such a perspective Greater Romania will become an impediment which the atlantist strategists have foreseen all along.
The frictions between Romania and Hungary,even with the Ukraine are not important for the atlantists and this aspect of romanian nationalism will not have the support of the atlantists *besides the fact that at a certain point the USA will consider that they can use this factor to destabilize the situation after the model of Yugoslavia.*

.......................................................................................


Now the bold part is more and more of a threat as we recently had a letter signed by many US congressmen interfearing in our policies with the hungarian minority and backing them.The russkie may be on to something here.There are increased rumours of "Magyar Garda" paramilitaries preparing to start arm rebellion on Kosovo model and then beg for western interfearence crying wolf(genocide)

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## sovcomflot

flamer84 said:


> Geopolitics of Romania.
> 
> by Alexandr Dughin
> 
> 1.Romanian geniuses and romanian identity.
> 
> Romania has given the world,especially in the 20th century,a whole range of world class geniuses:Nae Ionescu,Mircea Eliade,Emil Cioran,Eugen Ionescu,Stefan Lupascu,Jean Parvulescu,Vsile Lovinescu,Mihail Valsan and many others.
> 
> Altough a small country in Eastern Europe,Romania had,in the intelectual field a semnificative contribution to civilisation,comparable to that of the greau european nations,almost surpassing them.This caracteristic of romanian intelectualism reflects the spirit of european thought,indissolubly connected with the spirit of tradition,having its origins,with the ground,roots and tendencies in Antiquity as well as in the eternal european orthodox Orient,which remained virtually unchanged.
> 
> The italian professor Claudio Mutti in his article "Mircea Eliade and the unity of Eurasia" refers to the "eurasian nature of the romanian culture".He quotes Eliade:"I felt the descendat and heir of an interesting culture,because it's situated between two worlds:the western world,pure european,and the oriental world.I draw my roots from this two worlds.The western one,through the latin language and by the roman inheritance in customs.But,i was also drawing my roots from a culture influenced by the Orient and rooted in the neolithic.All this are true for a romanian but I think that they are just as true for a bulgarian,a serbo-croat,and finally for the Balkans,for south-eastern Europe and a part of Russia."(M. Eliade, L&#8217;épreuve du Labyrinthe, Entrétiens avec Claude-Henri Rocquet, Pierre Belfond, Paris, 1978, p. 26 &#8211; 27)
> 
> ..............................................................................................................................
> 
> 2.Romania and the structure of her geopolitics option.(euroatlantism and eurocontinentalism)
> 
> And now,a few words about the geoplitics of Romania.In the current conditions the term of "Romania's geoplitics" is not apropiate if we consider Romania as a subject of geopolitics.In the architecture of the contemporary world such subject doesn't exist.This comes from the logic of globalist implementation,situation in which the problem is presented thus:there will be one World State,with one world goverment,ruled and dominated by the "rich West",mostly by the USA or an equilibrium will be established between the "large spaces" (Grossraum) of the "new empires" which will integrate whate wete,until then,"nation states".In our world the passing from sovereign nation states will be made towards a world goverment(unipolar world) or towards a new world empire(multipolar world).
> 
> Romania's size as a state doesn't allow us to say that in both cases Romania,not even theoretically can become a "pol" ,situatian in which even today's Russia,with all her nuclear armament,natural resources and messianic history finds herself.
> 
> Under such conditions,"the geoplotics of Romania" falls under the category "geoploitics of a united Europe".This fact is not just a present political certainty,Romania beeing a member of the EU,but also inevitably comes from her's geoplitical situation.But more then that the "geoplitic of a united Europe" herself is not something guaranteed and secure.Even Europe as a whole,the EU,can count on sovereignity only in a multipolar world and only in such a case Europe will be sovereign and therefore,Romania as a part of it will be sovereign.Adopting the unipolar model of american dominance which refuses Europe's sovereignity,will afect Romania to,as she's a part of Europe.
> ...........................................................................................................................
> 
> 
> 3.Geopolitics of the "sanitary cordon"
> 
> In the question of establishing the geoplitic identity of Europe we can identify the next model:-the countries of "New Europe"-eastern european countries which tend to have a strong rusophobe tendency,thus joining the euro-atlantic orientation and distancing themselves from the actual continental tendencies of "Old Europe"-firstly France and Germany(the UK is a traditional american ally).This situation has a long history:Estern Europe was a permanent area of fighting between Europe and Russia an example beeing that in the 19th and begining of the 20th century the UK deliberately used this region as a "sanitary cordon" conceived to prevent an eventual russo-german alliance which would prevent the end of the anglo-saxon dominance in the world.Even in our days the same thing happens,the only difference beeing that today the emphasis is on energy projects,in the countries of the "sanitary cordon" beeing introduced the ideea that is also a a retribution for the soviet occupation in the 20th century.New arguements,old geopolitics.
> 
> .........................(i am skipping many parts,it's long and i try to present main ideeas).................
> 
> 
> 4.Greater Romania.
> 
> How can we understand in this situation the nationalist geopolitic project of Romania,known as "Greater Romania"? First of all it's about the historical tendency to build up the romanian national state occured in different historical and geopolitical situations.Here we can rely on history,starting with the ancient geto-dacians,mentioning Burebista and Decebal.Later on,the principalities of Moldova and Romanian Country(Valahia) were formed ,states that existed independently untill their conquering by the turks.
> 
> It's worthy the mention of Michael the Brave the one who managed at the begining of the 17th century the union between Valahia,Moldova and Transilvania.Romania won her national independence only in the 19th century,this fact beeing recognised at the Berlin Congress in 1878.Romania's strategic weight depended,even in the conditiond of her independence,by the geopolitical forces in her vecinity.It was a relative and fragile sovereignity based on the external power balance between the South (Ottoman empire),West (Austro-Hungary,Germany,France,England) and East(Russia).Therefore the "Greater Romania" project has remained an utopy altough it took a teoretical integral expression with the plans of building a romanian traditionalist state by the teoreticians of the "Iron Guard"(Corneliu Zelea Codreanu,Horia Sima),and,in the next period the Bucharest Real Politik was forced by bigger forces than Romania's potential, to choose,Antonescu chose Germany,Ceausescu the Soviet Union.
> 
> ...............................................................................................................
> 
> 5.Using romanian nationalism by the "atlantism"
> 
> 
> One of the most obvious usage of the "Greater Romania" ideea manifests herself in our days when this ideea is beeing used in the interest of atlantism.This has a clear objective:romanian nationalism(perfectly legitim and reasonable at its core) in Real Politik appealing to the ideea of integrating the Republic of Moldova within Romania.It looks like all flows naturally.But this legitimate wish to unite a sinle ethinc group into one country,in the conditions that this country is a NATO member will lead to the frontieres of this organization(NATO) even closer to Russia,and,in this case,the contradictions between Russia and the EU will only grow.In other terms the national utopia "Greater Romania" in practic,transforms itself in a simple extension of the "sanitary cordon",which will not benefit the EU but only the US and atlantism.
> 
> To the integration of Moldova we can add Transnistria which has a strategical position for Russia in this region.
> ................................................................................................................................
> 
> 
> In a certain stage Transnistria will become a very important base for Russia in this region.In such a perspective Greater Romania will become an impediment which the atlantist strategists have foreseen all along.
> The frictions between Romania and Hungary,even with the Ukraine are not important for the atlantists and this aspect of romanian nationalism will not have the support of the atlantists *besides the fact that at a certain point the USA will consider that they can use this factor to destabilize the situation after the model of Yugoslavia.*
> 
> .......................................................................................
> 
> 
> Now the bold part is more and more of a threat as we recently had a letter signed by many US congressmen interfearing in our policies with the hungarian minority and backing them.The russkie may be on to something here.There are increased rumours of "Magyar Garda" paramilitaries preparing to start arm rebellion on Kosovo model and then beg for western interfearence crying wolf(genocide)



So who wants to balkanize you ? West or Russia?


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## flamer84

6.Romania in the Eurasia project.

Now,we can present in a few words the teoretic model in which Romania can participate in the Eurasian project.
...........................................................................................................................................................
It's a lot to translate so i will stop.))

Basically his main ideeas are in a nutshell...come to the dark side,we have cookies.Joke apart the russian politolog launches the ideea that in a Eurasian Uniion Romania will be more respected then in the EU ,Russia will allow a union between us and Moldova ,they will even throw in a few pieces of Ukraine in, that we lost in the 19th century and WW2.They will support the Greater Romania project,oppose any hungarian revizionism but only under the umbrella of the Eurasian Union.Their talks with the hungarians are only scare mongering pointed at us.



sovcomflot said:


> So who wants to balkanize you ? West or Russia?



Both...we have to joggle to get a better deal from the two of them as we always did throughout history,the russians seem more brutal to me.

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## sovcomflot

flamer84 said:


> 6.Romania in the Eurasia project.
> 
> Now,we can present in a few words the teoretic model in which Romania can participate in the Eurasian project.
> ...........................................................................................................................................................
> It's a lot to translate so i will stop.))
> 
> Basically his main ideeas are in a nutshell...come to the dark side,we have cookies.Joke apart the russian politolog launches the ideea that in a Eurasian Uniion Romania will be more respected then in the EU ,Russia will allow a union between us and Moldova ,they will even throw in a few pieces of Ukraine in, that we lost in the 19th century and WW2.They will support the Greater Romania project,oppose any hungarian revizionism but only under the umbrella of the Eurasian Union.Their talks with the hungarians are only scare mongering pointed at us.
> 
> 
> 
> Both...we have to joggle to get a better deal from the two of them as we always did throughout history,the russians seem more brutal to me.





> .come to the dark side



Both sides are dark.According to me ,the western faction has more darkness. 



> Both...



??? Aren't you part of NATO? If this is true , the Romania should leave NATO and develop nuclear weapons ....


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## flamer84

sovcomflot said:


> Both sides are dark.According to me ,the western faction has more darkness.
> 
> 
> 
> ??? Aren't you part of NATO? If this is true , the Romania should leave NATO and develop nuclear weapons ....



That would be something,with the current enslaved political elites we barely managed to develop romanian tractors 23 years after 1989 revolution.First things first,we are on the good road,after the initial shock in the 1990's when the country was robbed blind ,the industry scrapped and nobody moved a finger in these last years we awoke as a nation and managed to stop many fraudulent privatisations,selling of our resources as we are begining to have a voice.

We have to joggle to survive,as we always did in our history.From immemorial times this nation was caught between migrating tribes,slavs,cumans,bulgars,pecenegs,magyars,then the mongol tatars,Hungarian Kingdom,Ottoman empire,Hapsburg empire,The poweful Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth,The Austro-hungarian empire,than came the Russian Empire,then Germany,this goes on for centuries but we managed to survive keeping intact our traditions and our religion.Endure and survive in the future we will,believe me!


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## flamer84

DejanSRB said:


> We must fight back,my opinion is that Vojvodina will bi first.Why?Becouse our national pride is on the edge of the existance,if you say "I am Serbian patriot" our media will marked you as nationalistic scum,and becouse of Albanians stole our territory,so we are weak now in the eyes of Jobbik.But Sun Tzu says "Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.
> 
> Oh mate I didnt know that Alexandar Dugin is Russian Zbignew Brzezinski.So Moscow freely talk about their vision of New Order in Europe and World orchestred by them?
> 
> Vostok.You will support Hungarians in their struggle to reunite Great Hungary?Becouse they come first to Moscow for help.



There's nothing to be done but show the West that the hungarians are lying and that they are not discriminated as a minority in Slovakia,Romania and Serbia and that theirs is just a revizionist propaganda.Armed retaliation for now is excluded as we will suffer the fate of Serbia in the 90's.

Unfortunately the West is very biased when it comes of hungarians and orthodox nations.Look what happened in 1990 in Romania and how they were biased,trying to blame the romanians as to force an intervention and destabilise the country.We had a narrow escape back then.They presented a romanian beaten by hungarians as a hungarian beaten by romanians.How twisted is that??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_clashes_of_Târgu_Mure&#537;#Western_media_involvement


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## sovcomflot

flamer84 said:


> That would be something,with the current enslaved political elites we barely managed to develop romanian tractors 23 years after 1989 revolution.First things first,we are on the good road,after the initial shock in the 1990's when the country was robbed blind ,the industry scrapped and nobody moved a finger in these last years we awoke as a nation and managed to stop many fraudulent privatisations,selling of our resources as we are begining to have a voice.
> 
> We have to joggle to survive,as we always did in our history.From immemorial times this nation was caught between migrating tribes,slavs,cumans,bulgars,pecenegs,magyars,then the mongol tatars,Hungarian Kingdom,Ottoman empire,Hapsburg empire,The poweful Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth,The Austro-hungarian empire,than came the Russian Empire,then Germany,this goes on for centuries but we managed to survive keeping intact our traditions and our religion.Endure and survive in the future we will,believe me!



Juggling won't work as almost all communications in NATO nations are monitored by NSA and its puppet corporates.You will have advantage to russians in negotiations ,but the west will be aware of your plans in advance. This is why if what you claim is true,it is extremely critical that you leave NATO and invest in developing biological and nuclear weaponry.These two are the only guarantee to keep predatory superpowers at bay.


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## flamer84

sovcomflot said:


> Juggling won't work as almost all communications in NATO nations are monitored by NSA and its puppet corporates.You will have advantage to russians in negotiations ,but the west will be aware of your plans in advance. This is why if what you claim is true,it is extremely critical that you leave NATO and invest in developing biological and nuclear weaponry.These two are the only guarantee to keep predatory superpowers at bay.



Nobody will let you to develop such capabilities,they would bomb you to the stone age before you get nuclear weapons.
Joggling doesn't mean go behind their back but maintaining good relations.Me,for example i don't like Russia and i like trolling the russians even in this forum but i'm just a random guy on the internet but our political elites have a responsility in maintaining good relations with Russia even if we are in NATO camp.Russia is close to us,it's here to stay in the future,it helps us nothing if we continue to treat them bad and with arrogance thinking NATO will forever have our back.Nothing lasts forever.

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## sovcomflot

flamer84 said:


> Nobody will let you to develop such capabilities,they would bomb you to the stone age before you get nuclear weapons.
> Joggling doesn't mean go behind their back but maintaining good relations.Me,for example i don't like Russia and i like trolling the russians even in this forum but i'm just a random guy on the internet but our political elites have a responsility in maintaining good relations with Russia even if we are in NATO camp.Russia is close to us,it's here to stay in the future,it helps us nothing if we continue to treat them bad and with arrogance thinking NATO will forever have our back.Nothing lasts forever.



See I hope you are right,because the influential families like Rockefeller that rule USA are going to create supranational govts in coming years. They are already destroying the nation concept and making it subservient to corporates,international banks and Collective military alliances. They want to balkanize nations so much that no one be a threat to them. After all they fund both the sides of war also. 

I hope you understand and research on Rockefeller family .Because if they have plans for Balkanisation of Romania ,they will implement it. You are better off developing biological weaponry first and then nuclear weapons.If you want Romania to be live,develop these,it will give great bargaining power against the military alliances and supranational forces and superpower nations like Russia or USA. Be smart.



> even if we are in NATO camp.



Whats the point of being in NATO if NATO wants to balkanize you? You are giving the Fox the keys to the hen house in my opinion.


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## flamer84

sovcomflot said:


> See I hope you are right,because the influential families like Rockefeller that rule USA are going to create supranational govts in coming years. They are already destroying the nation concept and making it subservient to corporates,international banks and Collective military alliances. They want to balkanize nations so much that no one be a threat to them. After all they fund both the sides of war also.
> 
> I hope you understand and research on Rockefeller family .Because if they have plans for Balkanisation of Romania ,they will implement it. You are better off developing biological weaponry first and then nuclear weapons.If you want Romania to be live,develop these,it will give great bargaining power against the military alliances and supranational forces and superpower nations like Russia or USA. Be smart.
> 
> 
> 
> Whats the point of being in NATO if NATO wants to balkanize you? You are giving the Fox the keys to the hen house in my opinion.



I believe we survived balkanization until now with a price:selling our country,industry piece by piece.As long as we played the game we were left standing.Now comes the tricky part,with some in Romania trying to rebuild and steer us towards the right direction,coincidentally,just as we do this the threat of hungarian revizionism resurfaces,as a way of showing us what awaits us if we don't play along anymore:national dismemberment just as Serbia.How can you play this game when you're not in a military position to defend yourself?

We have your option,nuclear weapons.That's fine and dandy with the exception you can't build nuclear weapons,delivery capabilities in such a secret so the big players won't find out.They will before you get the job done and you'll be destroyed.

Now,the second option,which i think is beeing tried today.You can still develop economically even if you have to share your wealth with the western elites,ofcourse you'll have to give up a big share of the cake which is naturally yours but in the process of this apeasing to them you can hold on to a piece of the cake for you,a piece which helps your economical development also.Sure,you can say "fvck you!" and jump in the russian camp but look at Belarus for example,it's a complete russian puppet ,not very developed and a country completely ignored by the West.So,i think we are doing this the right way.

If you will bare with me for a moment i will try to draw up a succint picture of romanian politics:

On one side we have the president serving his second term.Now this guy is a complete american lackey which follows orders from Washington immediately,there are wikileaks showing him go to the americam embassy to receive his orders.He is rabidly anti russian,his speeches and rusophobe rhetoric causing great damage to the russo-romanian relations.

On the other side we have parliamentarian coalition which took power of goverment in december 2012.These guys have accepted russian gestures of diplomacy and opened channels of communication with them.They are constantly accused by the president of selling the country to Russia and China but their policy is friendly relations within the EU,with the USA without excludung Russia which i personally think it's a good policy.If Germany can work with Russia why not us? Because an american stooge (the president) says so? Fortunately the clown will end his mandate in 2014 and will probably face a trial and jail time for 
the econimical mess and theft he has backed and created in the country.(altough there are rumours he would be nominated secretary of NATO to escape such faith---the rat may receive his cheese reward for services rendered)


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## Sun Piwa

The author of this article may feel to alone so he created this BS

EDL are just fanatics like Al Qaeda sect, all created by the JEWS to divide and conquer. EDL are actually the dogs of the JDL.
JEWS have always relied on the extremists to battle other countries for them

Terrorist JEW USA create Al Qaeda & chechens to destabilize Russia in Chechenia, Dagestan. Like they create nationalists in Ukrania, Bielorussia, Georgia...


EDL Racist Rabbi - YouTube


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## Desert Fox

RiasatKhan said:


> Nationalist movements work fine until they go overboard....you one of them??



Going over board with anything, or in other words, too much of anything is bad. Which is why National Socialism is the way forward. It is a balanced ideology in almost every respect. One has to study it from a neutral and unbiased viewpoint to understand.

Sadly though, most people only know the Western/Zionist propaganda about National Socialism.


----------



## Desert Fox

SOHEIL said:


> Great Hungary !?
> 
> the only thing the hungarians are great at ( right now ) is sending their Hot sluts into america for a high performance in dirty movies !!!


I think its the same case with most Eastern European countries, they don't have jobs for their population and the Zionist in power within these countries also play a major role in trafficking of Eastern European women.

This is a pattern which has been witnessed throughout history in every European country where the Zionist gained a foothold.



flamer84 said:


> Both...we have to joggle to get a better deal from the two of them as we always did throughout history,the russians seem more brutal to me.



Russia is active aggressive while the West is passive aggressive.




sovcomflot said:


> Both sides are dark.According to me ,the western faction has more darkness.



True.

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## Desert Fox

Sun Piwa said:


> The author of this article may feel to alone so he created this BS
> 
> EDL are just fanatics like Al Qaeda sect, all created by the JEWS to divide and conquer. EDL are actually the dogs of the JDL.
> JEWS have always relied on the extremists to battle other countries for them
> 
> Terrorist JEW USA create Al Qaeda & chechens to destabilize Russia in Chechenia, Dagestan. Like they create nationalists in Ukrania, Bielorussia, Georgia...
> 
> 
> EDL Racist Rabbi - YouTube



Which is why i believe the BNP is better than the EDL.


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## vostok

Desert Fox said:


> Russia is active aggressive while the West is passive aggressive.



Interesting story.
Hitler, Napoleon, Teutons, Swedes, Poles, Lithuania and many more on the little things - attacking Russia from the West.
Russia reflects aggression.
So why Russia has become an active aggressor?
This is map of Africa. I don't see any Russian colonies. May be you do?

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## flamer84

vostok said:


> Interesting story.
> Hitler, Napoleon, Teutons, Swedes, Poles, Lithuania and many more on the little things - attacking Russia from the West.
> Russia reflects aggression.
> So why Russia has become an active aggressor?



Napoleon attacked Russia because tsarist Russia was a staunch ally of England,the anglo-saxons that you despise so much.

Hitler attacked Russia because bolshevism was a threat to the european way of life,he actually tried to protect traditional Europe with this act but you won't hear this in "modern history lesson"

In both cases(Hitler and Napleon) Russia was actually a pawn to destroy the enemies that really threathened angl-saxon hegemony.You played your part well unfortunately.



vostok said:


> Interesting story.
> Hitler, Napoleon, Teutons, Swedes, Poles, Lithuania and many more on the little things - attacking Russia from the West.
> Russia reflects aggression.
> So why Russia has become an active aggressor?
> This is map of Africa. I don't see any Russian colonies. May be you do?



That's because you guys colonised half of Asia.

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## SOHEIL

vostok said:


> Interesting story.
> Hitler, Napoleon, Teutons, Swedes, Poles, Lithuania and many more on the little things - attacking Russia from the West.
> Russia reflects aggression.
> So why Russia has become an active aggressor?
> This is map of Africa. I don't see any Russian colonies. May be you do?



Lack of Navy !

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## vostok

SOHEIL said:


> Lack of Navy !



Do you think Russian fleet was less than the Belgian or Portuguese?


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## SOHEIL

vostok said:


> Do you think Russian fleet was less than the Belgian or Portuguese?



No  i could be wrong !


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## vostok

SOHEIL said:


> No  i could be wrong !



Total Russian fleet was less than the British or the French, but more then others. The difference between Russia and Europe in the other. Russia - land empire like China or Iran. A European Empires - maritime empires. That is, there is a metropolis, which robs the colonies. In land Empire different system - all parts of the empire developed more or less the same.

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## asad71

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUVGzyrUmgA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgAQLPH9uYc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi6TbLmeFoQ


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## SOHEIL

vostok said:


> Total Russian fleet was less than the British or the French, but more then others. The difference between Russia and Europe in the other. Russia - land empire like China or Iran. A European Empires - maritime empires. That is, there is a metropolis, which robs the colonies. In land Empire different system - all parts of the empire developed more or less the same.



Agree ...

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## Kambojaric

vostok said:


> Interesting story.
> Hitler, Napoleon, Teutons, Swedes, Poles, Lithuania and many more on the little things - attacking Russia from the West.
> Russia reflects aggression.
> So why Russia has become an active aggressor?
> This is map of Africa. I don't see any Russian colonies. May be you do?



Because Russia had ample space towards its south and east to expand into whilst the western powers were landlocked. Russias genocides of the Adyghe and Abkhaz and the way it brutally evicted and transported millions of Poles, Tartars, Romanians are well known.

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## Desert Fox

vostok said:


> Interesting story.
> Hitler, Napoleon, Teutons, Swedes, Poles, Lithuania and many more on the little things - attacking Russia from the West.
> Russia reflects aggression.
> So why Russia has become an active aggressor?
> This is map of Africa. I don't see any Russian colonies. May be you do?



I will present to you historically proven facts.

1). As @flamer84 mentioned, Tsarist Russia was an ally of England, the enemy of France, and thus Napoleon's enemy. There was no way of invading England since it sat across the channel, but Russia shares a land border with Europe so there was a greater chance of Napoleons army clashing with the Imperial Russian Army.

2). In 1919-1920, Bolshevik Communist Red Army under Leon Trotsky (real name Lev Bronstein) and Joseph Stalin attempted to invade and annex the newly independent state of Poland in order to assist the Red Revolution in Germany. This was 13-14 years before Hitler even came into power in Germany.

3). Thirdly, Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union was a preemptive one. Before Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa, Stalin's Red Army invaded and forcefully annexed Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Moldova (taken from Rumania by force), and attempted to invade and annex Finland through similar means but failed to do so. Also, Stalin overtly supported the overthrow of the pro-German Yugoslavian gov.t, and this was the final nail in the coffin which prompted Hitler to invade the Soviet Union because that was the only language Stalin understood. It is also important to mention that before Hitler launched Barbarossa, Molotov presented the Germans with a list of demands from Stalin for installment of Soviet military bases and installations in Eastern Europe. Hitler outright refused to allow such Soviet presence.

Stalin used the Red Army to great advantage during the final months/days of WW2. Red Army steamrolled into every Eastern European country and forcefully annexed these nations into the Soviet Union. That is active aggression.

But such naked aggression is no longer a viable choice today and would only internationally isolate the aggressor nation.

*The Zionist controlled West is passive aggressive, they use economic aggression to destroy nations. They buy out political elites/leaderships and steal the resources of Nations, as has been done in Eastern European countries. The national resources of these lands have been bought at fire sale prices at the expense of the common people.*

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## vostok

Bamxa said:


> Because Russia had ample space towards its south and east to expand into whilst the western powers were landlocked. Russias genocides of the Adyghe and Abkhaz and the way it brutally evicted and transported millions of Poles, Tartars, Romanians are well known.



Transported, not evicted, nations during the war - by the way, as the Japanese in the United States. Only the Crimean Tatars and Chechens - because 90% of them are actively collaborated with the Nazis.
There was no genocide. They did not want to live in peace and robbed Russian city. And in the end, and refused to take Russian citizenship and emigrated to Turkey. Tell me, the Aborigines of Australia or Fmerican Indians had a chance to emigrate? No. They were killed like weeds.


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## doremon

ultra far right nationalism on rise in europe.duh so is islamic radicalists.....


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## vostok

Desert Fox said:


> I will present to you historically proven facts.
> 
> 1). As @flamer84 mentioned, Tsarist Russia was an ally of England, the enemy of France, and thus Napoleon's enemy. There was no way of invading England since it sat across the channel, but Russia shares a land border with Europe so there was a greater chance of Napoleons army clashing with the Imperial Russian Army.
> 
> 2). In 1919-1920, Bolshevik Communist Red Army under Leon Trotsky (real name Lev Bronstein) and Joseph Stalin attempted to invade and annex the newly independent state of Poland in order to assist the Red Revolution in Germany. This was 13-14 years before Hitler even came into power in Germany.
> 
> 3). Thirdly, Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union was a preemptive one. Before Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa, Stalin's Red Army invaded and forcefully annexed Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Moldova (taken from Rumania by force), and attempted to invade and annex Finland through similar means but failed to do so. Also, Stalin overtly supported the overthrow of the pro-German Yugoslavian gov.t, and this was the final nail in the coffin which prompted Hitler to invade the Soviet Union because that was the only language Stalin understood. It is also important to mention that before Hitler launched Barbarossa, Molotov presented the Germans with a list of demands from Stalin for installment of Soviet military bases and installations in Eastern Europe. Hitler outright refused to allow such Soviet presence.
> 
> Stalin used the Red Army to great advantage during the final months/days of WW2. Red Army steamrolled into every Eastern European country and forcefully annexed these nations into the Soviet Union. That is active aggression.
> 
> But such naked aggression is no longer a viable choice today and would only internationally isolate the aggressor nation.
> 
> *The Zionist controlled West is passive aggressive, they use economic aggression to destroy nations. They buy out political elites/leaderships and steal the resources of Nations, as has been done in Eastern European countries. The national resources of these lands have been bought at fire sale prices at the expense of the common people.*



1) From the fact that France has won all of Europe, by your logic - it 's just the was duty to conquer Russia ? Why not live in peace, how many times offered Russian Tsar ?
Because the Europeans - the aggressors . They could not live peacefully. Although since then , as Russia defeated Napoleon and Hitler , the French and the Germans were far less bellicose . The snake has lost the sting .
2 ) Russian Empire - was an internationally recognized state . The Allies had no right to recognize the breakaway provinces as independent states .
Poland had attacked first in the South- West of Russia trying to restore its borders ages 17-18 , far beyond the boundaries of settlement of the Polish people .
3) There are no plans of aggression , Stalin had not. All this came up later Goebbels and his students from the CIA and the teachers of the Mi -6 to justify aggression against Russia .
Baltic states, Moldova - illegally alienated land from the Russian Empire . Stalin had all the rights to them . They were not annexed - they have been incorporated in all international laws.
The Red Army defeated the aggressor and contributed to the rise power in the liberated countries of the Left parties . And only then , these parties themselves asked the Red Army to stay.
The Cold War began West, not the Soviet Union. If this is not done - the Red Army would have gone home.


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## DejanSRB

Desert Fox said:


> Also, Stalin overtly supported the overthrow of the pro-German Yugoslavian gov.t,



Nope,mate,it was a England who support coap against our pro German forces.In 25 March 1941,our knez Pavle accept Hitler offer to join Axis forces,two days after British agents pay to our anti German leaders who have great speech ability to organize a coap against Hitler.

Knez Pavle was only one who received such a welcome in Berlin.No other head of the state did no attend the parade in his honor organized in Berlin.

Look at this

Knez Pavle u zvanicnoj poseti Berlinu 1. juna 1939. - YouTube

Unfortunately Hitler was furious,and he say "Serbs betray me,they will pay the price"
Result-OPERATION RETRIBUTION Operation Retribution (1941) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then Croatian chauvinst lapdogs come and start to killing Serbs.

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## flamer84

vostok said:


> 1) From the fact that France has won all of Europe, by your logic - it 's just the was duty to conquer Russia ? Why not live in peace, how many times offered Russian Tsar ?
> Because the Europeans - the aggressors . They could not live peacefully. Although since then , as Russia defeated Napoleon and Hitler , the French and the Germans were far less bellicose . The snake has lost the sting .
> 2 ) Russian Empire - was an internationally recognized state . The Allies had no right to recognize the breakaway provinces as independent states .
> Poland had attacked first in the South- West of Russia trying to restore its borders ages 17-18 , far beyond the boundaries of settlement of the Polish people .
> 3) There are no plans of aggression , Stalin had not. All this came up later Goebbels and his students from the CIA and the teachers of the Mi -6 to justify aggression against Russia .
> Baltic states, Moldova - illegally alienated land from the Russian Empire . Stalin had all the rights to them . They were not annexed - they have been incorporated in all international laws.
> The Red Army defeated the aggressor and contributed to the rise power in the liberated countries of the Left parties . And only then , these parties themselves asked the Red Army to stay.
> The Cold War began West, not the Soviet Union. If this is not done - the Red Army would have gone home.



1.Napoleon had instituded a blockade against England as his fleet was defeated at Trafalgar preventing him to outright invade England.Tsarist Russia didn't cooperate with that blockade and remained an ally of England,that's why it got invaded ,how retarded can you be as not to understand simple things? You were actually helping the anglo saxons that you despise so much.

2.Russian Empire was as much of a state like the Austro-Hungarian Empire,in fact it was actually a prison of nations.People wanted their independence,it was their right as separate nations not to live under russian boot.

3.There were plans of agression,every document of the time points to this.On top of that ,before WW2 Russia ilegally attacked Finland,attacked Poland with Germany?

Moldova,Russian land? You retarded fool,even today after 50 years of mass deportation,forced russification ,romanians still count over 65% of the population,in the 1940's they were close to 80%.Show me the international law that gave you the right to invade you illiterate communist piece of sh&t.

Rise of communist parties...in Romania in 1945 the communists didn't have more than 1000 members your barbarian army brought jewish commisars from Moscow like Ana Pauker and forced into leadership positions,you've imprisoned/killed all romanian politicians who were against communism and purged the state of anti communists to install your lackeys.

You're to stupid even for a communist propagandist,you have no facts ,only your cheap propaganda,God what i ewill to do to you if i would ever get may hands on you....maybe i'll get lucky one day....

The Iron Guard was right when they were burning alive communist ***** like you...That's what you deserve.


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## vostok

DejanSRB said:


> Nope,mate,it was a England who support coap against our pro German forces.In 25 March 1941,our knez Pavle accept Hitler offer to join Axis forces,two days after British agents pay to our anti German leaders who have great speech ability to organize a coap against Hitler.
> 
> Knez Pavle was only one who received such a welcome in Berlin.No other head of the state did no attend the parade in his honor organized in Berlin.
> 
> Look at this
> 
> Knez Pavle u zvanicnoj poseti Berlinu 1. juna 1939. - YouTube
> 
> Unfortunately Hitler was furious,and he say "Serbs betray me,they will pay the price"
> Result-OPERATION RETRIBUTION Operation Retribution (1941) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Then Croatian chauvinst lapdogs come and start to killing Serbs.


I do not understand - you regret that Hitler had fought against the Serbs???
Serbs - probably the closest in blood and language to Russian. Because of you, we were at wars with Ottomans, and for the sake of you we got involved in First World War . For your sake, Stalin maintained a unified Yugoslavia and not allowed to make the Anglo-Saxons with the southern Slavs in the 50's years that the Anglo-Saxons did in the 90s.


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## Jaanbaz

I am interested to hear the view of pro right wing groups here. How will they deal with millions of immigrants in Europe? Do they mean to carry out a Hitler style final solution or what? Or Mass expulsion of any brown looking folk on the streets of Europe?


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## flamer84

Jaanbaz said:


> I am interested to hear the view of pro right wing groups here. How will they deal with millions of immigrants in Europe? Do they mean to carry out a Hitler style final solution or what? Or Mass expulsion of any brown looking folk on the streets of Europe?



Hmm,i don't know if there really are members of pro right wing groups in here. @Desert Fox is a sympathiser but from what i know he is pakistani.
From what i know that is their policy,"if it ain't white,it ain't right" and that's why they'll never have the majority.
Most people,like me,would want a stop of outside european immigration,expulsion of illegal immigrants,no welfare for immigrants (you've came to work not be supported) a tough stance against who don't integrate but for other immigrants,first gen,second and so on who are citizens i don't wan't anything to happen to them.They're citizens just like us,as long as they work nobody should dare to ask for their removal just because they're not white.Even if they don't work,cut welfare,just as you will do to a white european to stop encouraging people to live on the state.


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## Sun Piwa

flamer84 said:


> Napoleon attacked Russia because tsarist Russia was a staunch ally of England,the anglo-saxons that you despise so much.
> 
> Hitler attacked Russia because bolshevism was a threat to the european way of life,he actually tried to protect traditional Europe with this act but you won't hear this in "modern history lesson"
> 
> In both cases(Hitler and Napleon) Russia was actually a pawn to destroy the enemies that really threathened angl-saxon hegemony.You played your part well unfortunately.
> 
> 
> 
> That's because you guys colonised half of Asia.



So you use Hitler when it's good for you, against Russia it's a nice guy, against the JEWS it's a monster.

I can say also Hitler attacked the JEWS because they are crooks & wars mongers.

You're just a liar

Terrorist JEW USA create Al Qaeda & chechens to destabilize Russia in Chechenia, Dagestan. Like they create nationalists in Ukrania, Bielorussia, Georgia...

Russia never use jihadist to attack JEW USA

(GOOGLE) CIA Financing of Chechen and Other Caucasus Regional Terrorists

CIA Financing of Chechen and Other Caucasus Regional Terrorists | Veterans Today

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## flamer84

Sun Piwa said:


> So you use Hitler when it's good for you, against Russia it's a nice guy, against the JEWS it's a monster.
> 
> I can say also Hitler attacked the JEWS because they are crooks & wars mongers.
> 
> You're just a liar
> 
> Terrorist JEW USA create Al Qaeda & chechens to destabilize Russia in Chechenia, Dagestan. Like they create nationalists in Ukrania, Bielorussia, Georgia...
> 
> Russia never use jihadist to attack JEW USA
> 
> (GOOGLE) CIA Financing of Chechen and Other Caucasus Regional Terrorists
> 
> CIA Financing of Chechen and Other Caucasus Regional Terrorists | Veterans Today



You do realise that if you don't like the jews to much,and i'm not their biggest fan,there are better ways to deal with them then gassing 6 millions from the toddlers to the elderly,don't you?Now,if you proceed in doing that all your best intentions go down the toilette and you'll be branded for what you are...a mass murderer.

I didn't said he was a nice guy,but he did fight against a dirty ideology which threathened the civilised way of life:bolshevism.Anyway ,bolshevism made much more victims then national socialism but it doesn't have the same bad reputation and that's a historical mistake which should be corrected,communism should be outlawed and its followers thrown in prison.

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## DejanSRB

vostok said:


> I do not understand - you regret that Hitler had fought against the Serbs???
> Serbs - probably the closest in blood and language to Russian. Because of you, we were at wars with Ottomans, and for the sake of you we got involved in First World War . For your sake, Stalin maintained a unified Yugoslavia and not allowed to make the Anglo-Saxons with the southern Slavs in the 50's years that the Anglo-Saxons did in the 90s.



Nope,i regret that we Serbs(after two Balkan wars,after WW1,when we lose 30 % of our population)goes in war with most powerful country in Europe at that time.We could remain neutral,but no we choose to fight and we lose more then one million people again,and insted of make a Serbian country again after WW2.We make Yugoslavia,with butchers Croatis and others and we freed them of guilt.Did you hear about Tito-Stalin split in '48?


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## vostok

It is better to die, but honestly, than live like a rat. In addition, the Germans would not have given to be neutral Yugoslavia - because of geographical position.
Russian lost in the WW2 17 millions and lost more people and Great Impire in the WW1 / Revolution / Civil War. But they were fighting for a right cause, and I do not regret the deads - they died as heroes and are now in heavens.
If the Russian were the aggressors, Stalin would simply dismissed Tito and put an obedient man - as used to do the Westerners.


----------



## cyphercide

cyphercide said:


> The uniforms were designed with inputs from Hugo Boss. It always pays to keep a designer in the mix of things.



Wow! This is quite the blast from the past. As it turns out, It seems to be incorrect to state, as I did earlier, that Hugo Boss had any say in the design of uniforms. They were merely the official tailors for the regime and nothing more. The error is regretted.



> The connection between Hugo Boss and the Nazis has been peddled so often, and with so many variations, that the true story is almost completely obscured.
> 
> Brand&#8217;s outburst this week provides a perfect opportunity to set the record straight.
> 
> The first myth to torpedo is that Hugo Boss designed the smart black uniforms for the dreaded SS.
> 
> Although it is tempting to suppose that the evil glamour of these outfits must have been the product of a fashion designer, there is no truth to it at all.
> 
> In fact, the uniforms evolved from earlier Prussian styles. The designs continued to evolve with modifications from the foundation of the SS in 1925 to its disintegration two decades later.
> 
> The infamous black uniform itself came into being in 1932 and is said to have been designed by an artist and senior SS officer called Karl Diebitsch, who worked with a graphic designer called Walter Heck.
> 
> Neither man worked for Hugo Boss. Perhaps Brand meant that Boss simply manufactured them. In which case he&#8217;s right.



Shameful truth about Hugo Boss's links to the Nazis revealed: As Russell Brand is thrown out of a party for accusing fashion designer of helping Hitler | Mail Online




> By 1938, the firm was producing army uniforms, and eventually it manufactured for the Waffen SS too - though it did not, apparently, design the SS uniform.



BBC News - Hugo Boss apology for Nazi past as book is published


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## DejanSRB

vostok said:


> It is better to die, but honestly, than live like a rat. In addition, the Germans would not have given to be neutral Yugoslavia - because of geographical position.
> Russian lost in the WW2 17 millions and lost more people and Great Impire in the WW1 / Revolution / Civil War. But they were fighting for a right cause, and I do not regret the deads - they died as heroes and are now in heavens.
> If the Russian were the aggressors, Stalin would simply dismissed Tito and put an obedient man - as used to do the Westerners.



It is better to die,but if you die for Serbian interests,not for some anti Serbian project called Yugoslavia.
Stalin couldnt dismissed Tito in the '48 becouse at that time Yugoslavia turned policy to pro Western.Anti Russian segment in Serbia have roots in that split,becouse our communist stand on Tito side,few who opposite was killed on "Goli Otok" camp.


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## vostok

DejanSRB said:


> It is better to die,but if you die for Serbian interests,not for some anti Serbian project called Yugoslavia.
> Stalin couldnt dismissed Tito in the '48 becouse at that time Yugoslavia turned policy to pro Western.Anti Russian segment in Serbia have roots in that split,becouse our communist stand on Tito side,few who opposite was killed on "Goli Otok" camp.



Do you think Stalin could not replace Tito and the government using force? Could. But Stalin - not Western leader and did not bomb Belgrade because he does not like who is rule.
The war against Hitler - a war until full destruction, you could not just stand by and watch. You and we were fighting not just for Serbian / Soviet interests, but for the right of all people on the Earth to live, work, happiness.


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## Jaanbaz

flamer84 said:


> Hmm,i don't know if there really are members of pro right wing groups in here. @Desert Fox is a sympathiser but from what i know he is pakistani.
> From what i know that is their policy,"if it ain't white,it ain't right" and that's why they'll never have the majority.
> Most people,like me,would want a stop of outside european immigration,expulsion of illegal immigrants,no welfare for immigrants (you've came to work not be supported) a tough stance against who don't integrate but for other immigrants,first gen,second and so on who are citizens i don't wan't anything to happen to them.They're citizens just like us,as long as they work nobody should dare to ask for their removal just because they're not white.Even if they don't work,cut welfare,just as you will do to a white european to stop encouraging people to live on the state.



I agree. If someone doesn't want to learn the language and culture of the country and doesn't work but just does benefit fraud they should simply be sent back. Problem is some immigrants who are trying to impose their way. I think that is what scares many Europeans. I have seen personal examples of many immigrant groups successfully integrating in the British society. I can't say the same for my fellow British Pakistanis though.

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## flamer84

vostok said:


> Do you think Stalin could not replace Tito and the government using force? Could. But Stalin - not Western leader and did not bomb Belgrade because he does not like who is rule.
> The war against Hitler - a war until full destruction, you could not just stand by and watch. *You and we were fighting not just for Serbian / Soviet interests, but for the right of all people on the Earth to live, work, happiness.*



You're one special looney.

I must break you - YouTube


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## DejanSRB

vostok said:


> Do you think Stalin could not replace Tito and the government using force? Could. But Stalin - not Western leader and did not bomb Belgrade because he does not like who is rule.
> The war against Hitler - a war until full destruction, you could not just stand by and watch. You and we were fighting not just for Serbian / Soviet interests, but for the right of all people on the Earth to live, work, happiness.



Serbian interests was Serbian state made by Serbian victors,not some s*it with killers of Serbs.We win at war but lose in peace.


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## Sun Piwa

flamer84 said:


> You do realise that if you don't like the jews to much,and i'm not their biggest fan,there are better ways to deal with them then gassing 6 millions from the toddlers to the elderly,don't you?Now,if you proceed in doing that all your best intentions go down the toilette and you'll be branded for what you are...a mass murderer.
> 
> I didn't said he was a nice guy,but he did fight against a dirty ideology which threathened the civilised way of life:bolshevism.Anyway ,bolshevism made much more victims then national socialism but it doesn't have the same bad reputation and that's a historical mistake which should be corrected,communism should be outlawed and its followers thrown in prison.



It's OK to kill 20 millions russians but it's a crime to kill 6 millions (not certified) JEWS

I remind you that it was the russians stupid enough to convert to judaism who were killed

I don't say that it was a trap made by the real JEWS from the tribes of Israhell so they can take all the glory later and become untouchables.

The real JEWS (not converted europeans) practically all fled before the so called shoah


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## Desert Fox

vostok said:


> 1) From the fact that France has won all of Europe, by your logic - it 's just the was duty to conquer Russia ? Why not live in peace, how many times offered Russian Tsar ?
> Because the Europeans - the aggressors . They could not live peacefully. Although since then , as Russia defeated Napoleon and Hitler , the French and the Germans were far less bellicose . The snake has lost the sting .
> 2 ) Russian Empire - was an internationally recognized state . The Allies had no right to recognize the breakaway provinces as independent states .
> Poland had attacked first in the South- West of Russia trying to restore its borders ages 17-18 , far beyond the boundaries of settlement of the Polish people .
> 3) There are no plans of aggression , Stalin had not. All this came up later Goebbels and his students from the CIA and the teachers of the Mi -6 to justify aggression against Russia .
> Baltic states, Moldova - illegally alienated land from the Russian Empire . Stalin had all the rights to them . They were not annexed - they have been incorporated in all international laws.
> The Red Army defeated the aggressor and contributed to the rise power in the liberated countries of the Left parties . And only then , these parties themselves asked the Red Army to stay.
> The Cold War began West, not the Soviet Union. If this is not done - the Red Army would have gone home.



The Baltic States did not want to join the Soviet Union. Stalin forcefully annexed them through military aggression.

When the German troops entered the Baltic states during the summer of 1941, they were welcomed as liberators by cheering crowds of people. Everyone rejoiced over the retreat of the bolshevik Red Army.






The Baltic States and Poland were internationally recognized countries.



DejanSRB said:


> Nope,mate,it was a England who support coap against our pro German forces.In 25 March 1941,our knez Pavle accept Hitler offer to join Axis forces,two days after British agents pay to our anti German leaders who have great speech ability to organize a coap against Hitler.
> 
> Knez Pavle was only one who received such a welcome in Berlin.No other head of the state did no attend the parade in his honor organized in Berlin.
> 
> Look at this
> 
> Knez Pavle u zvanicnoj poseti Berlinu 1. juna 1939. - YouTube
> 
> Unfortunately Hitler was furious,and he say "Serbs betray me,they will pay the price"
> Result-OPERATION RETRIBUTION Operation Retribution (1941) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Then Croatian chauvinst lapdogs come and start to killing Serbs.



Excuse my mistake, you are right, it was the British who supported the coup against the pro-German gov.t, however Stalin made no attempt to hide his joy of the coup nor his displeasure when the Germans invaded Yugoslavia. This further strengthened Hitler's suspicion that the British and Soviets were conspiring against him as well as his view that the Soviets were gearing up to invade Europe.

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## vostok

Desert Fox said:


> The Baltic States did not want to join the Soviet Union. Stalin forcefully annexed them through military aggression.
> 
> When the German troops entered the Baltic states during the summer of 1941, they were welcomed as liberators by cheering crowds of people. Everyone rejoiced over the retreat of the bolshevik Red Army.



They had not been annexed. In the elections won of the Communist Party, then these parties asked Stalin to take them to the Soviet Union. Legally, it's the same thing that happened now in Eastern Europe - a puppet pro-Western parties asked the EU and NATO to take them into EU and NATO, and then American military arrives.


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## flamer84

vostok said:


> They had not been annexed. In the elections won of the Communist Party, then these parties asked Stalin to take them to the Soviet Union. Legally, it's the same thing that happened now in Eastern Europe - a puppet pro-Western parties asked the EU and NATO to take them into EU and NATO, and then American military arrives.



Legally...no,you pathetic clown.In the elections held in Romania in 1946,despite the presence of the soviet army and communist terror squads supervising the ballot boxes,the communist lost.When they did the counting and saw they have under 50% despite massive fraud,the communist just shut the electoral process down and proclaimed a 90 % percent victory,arrested the oposition and that was that.It happened the same everywhere in Eastern Europe.It has nothing to do with today's election when people actually have the men they vote for in power.Got it now,you illiterate cimpanzee ?


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## DejanSRB

Desert Fox said:


> Excuse my mistake, you are right, it was the British who supported the coup against the pro-German gov.t, however Stalin made no attempt to hide his joy of the coup nor his displeasure when the Germans invaded Yugoslavia. This further strengthened Hitler's suspicion that the British and Soviets were conspiring against him as well as his view that the Soviets were gearing up to invade Europe.



No problem,mate,you have great history knowledge.I hope we can help each other on other history questions from South America to Australia,cheers!

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## Desert Fox

@vostok

This is for you, its in Russian:


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## vostok

Desert Fox said:


> @vostok
> 
> This is for you, its in Russian:



every nation has the traitors.

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## Pakistani E

@ Desert Fox, did you get the honoury Aryan badge from hitler himself?


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## SenLin

*French polls show surge in support for far-right National Front*

_Quarter of French voters polled said they would vote for party at 2014 European elections, with 19% for Socialists_


One in four French voters are ready to support the far-right National Front in next year's European elections, a new poll shows.

A survey of voting intentions for the May 2014 election found the party could win more support than the government and the main opposition party.

It is the first time in French political history that the Front National, led by Marine Le Pen, has headed a poll for a national vote.

The pollsters Ifop found 24% of the 1,893 French voters questioned said they intended to vote for the anti-European Union, anti-immigration National Front, while 22% said they would vote for the centre-right Union for a Popular Movement (UMP) and 19% for the governing Socialist party.

"For the first time in a poll on voting intentions in an election of a national character, the [National Front] is clearly ahead," Ifop said.

The boost for the party comes just 10 days before the second round of a byelection in the canton of Brignoles, in the Var, southern France, in which the National Front candidate gained 40.4 % of votes in the first round.

It also came as Alain Delon, one of France's most celebrated actors, expressed his sympathy for the National Front and said he "approved" of the party's rise. Delon had previously voiced his "friendship" and "liking" for the party's founder, Jean-Marie Le Pen.

In an interview with the Swiss paper Le Matin, Delon, said: "For years Le Pen father and daughter have fought, but they've fought somewhat alone. Now, for the first time, they're not alone. The French are with them."

The Nouvel Observateur magazine that published the poll on Thursday said the results were not a prediction, but the figures show a remarkable rise in support for the National Front. In the last European elections, in 2009, the far-right party obtained 6.34% of votes.

"The French are showing a wish to take their destiny into their hands and give back their country its sovereignty," said the Front National secretary general, Steeve Briois. He promised an "unprecedented earthquake" in the European elections.

In the Nouvel Obs, the French president, François Hollande, explained that the rise of nationalism and popularism in Europe was linked to "the fear of decline", "relations with Islam", and an ageing population. He said nationalism came from a "lack of perspective and collective dynamic".

Hollande, whose popularity continues to decline, admitted on Wednesday that there was a risk that the European parliament would have a "large share of anti-Europeans" after next May's election. "It would be a regression and a threat of paralysis," he said.

Marine Le Pen, a practising lawyer, has threatened to sue anyone that calls the National Front an "extreme right" party, a threat that did not seem to worry Hollande. "Faced with extremists, the best thing is to hold one's head high," he said.


French polls show surge in support for far-right National Front | World news | theguardian.com


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## SenLin

*Moscow police arrest 1,200 migrants after riots*

_'Pre-emptive raid' after ultranationalists trash vegetable warehouse in unrest sparked by murder of ethnic Russian_


Moscow police rounded up and arrested more than a thousand migrant workers at a vegetable warehouse on Monday morning, hours after hundreds of ultranationalists clashed with riot police. The rioters had overturned cars and raided a shopping centre used by migrants after the murder of an ethnic Russian was blamed on a man from the Caucasus.

Police arrested more than 1,200 people in what was called a "pre-emptive raid" on the warehouse where the rioters believed the killer worked, Russian news agencies reported.

Sunday's rioting in the southern Biryulyovo district of Moscow, which escalated after hundreds gathered where Egor Shcherbakov, 25, was murdered last week, marked the capital's worst nationalist unrest in three years.

Nationalist mobs chanted "Russia for Russians"and images from the scene show a car flipped on to its roof scattered in watermelons.

About 380 of the ultranationalists were arrested on Sunday night, although most were released. Seventy face administrative proceedings, while two are likely to face criminal charges. The police have opened a criminal investigation into "hooliganism".

Nationalists in masks hurled bottles at police, dressed in helmets and urban camouflage, who fought back with batons. Six riot police officers were wounded; two were taken to hospital.

The violence prompted the interior ministry on Sunday to activate Vulkan-5, an emergency security regime that deploys the entire Moscow police force and that was last activated after the Moscow metro bombings killed 40 people three years ago.

Late on Sunday night the police had the situation under control, although migrant communities remained tense. The head of the Federation of Migrants on Sunday warned migrants to remain at home for fear of random attacks across the city.

Police have said Shcherbakov was stabbed in front of his girlfriend on 10 October. The following day a photograph of an alleged suspect, who appeared to be from the Caucasus region, was circulating on nationalist websites.

In December 2010, violence erupted in the capital when thousands of ultranationalists massed outside the walls of the Kremlin after an ethnic Russian football fan was killed by a man from the North Caucasus.

Animosity towards immigration has grown rapidly in the last 10 years as the inflow of migrants from central Asia and Russia's north Caucasus region has boomed.


Moscow police arrest 1,200 migrants after riots | World news | theguardian.com

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## SenLin

*French far-right candidate wins key local by-election*

_National Front candidate Laurent Lopez won a hotly-contested local council by-election in the southern town of Brignoles on Sunday, in a vote seen as a test of the far-right party's popularity ahead of the 2014 municipal elections._


France's far-right National Front (FN) won a bellwether by-election on Sunday, cementing the party's status as a major political force.

The eurosceptic and anti-immigration party founded by Jean-Marie Le Pen in 1972 has for years been largely regarded as a pariah in French politics but it has gained significantly in strength and popularity in recent years under the leadership of Marine Le Pen (the daughter of Jean-Marie).

The party's candidate Laurent Lopez took 53.9 percent of the vote in the second round of the by-election in the southeastern town of Brignoles, officials in the Var department said.
"I am very happy, it is an unambiguous result," said Lopez of his victory.

When the FN candidate made it into the run-off after the October 6 first round vote, it sent shockwaves across France and prompted calls by the ruling Socialists for a "republican front" to stem the party's progress.

The left, which had no candidates in the Brignoles run-off, had urged voters to back the centre-right UMP candidate Catherine Delzers, whom election officials said took 46.1 percent of the vote in Sunday's ballot.

Analysts have said that an FN win in Brignoles, whose mayor belongs to the Communist party, could be a significant barometer of the national mood.

*Landmark shift?*

&#8220;The significance of an election like the one in Brignoles &#8211; although it&#8217;s a tiny election in the scheme of things &#8211; is that it&#8217;s a test case of whether the FN can stand in the second round against the combined efforts of the other parties and succeed&#8221;, James Shields, author of "The Extreme Right in France", told FRANCE 24.

In a dramatic boost for the party now led by the founder's daughter Marine Le Pen, a new poll said the FN would secure 24 percent of the vote in next May's elections for the European Parliament.

The Ifop poll for the Le Nouvel Observateur magazine said the survey signalled a landmark shift.

"For the first time in a poll on voting intentions in an election, the FN is clearly ahead of both the (ruling) Socialist Party and the [main opposition party] UMP," Ifop said.

The Socialists in the Ifop poll came in third place for the next May&#8217;s European elections with 19 percent, with the UMP trailing behind the FN at 22 percent.

Although Interior Minister Manuel Valls has taken a hard line on immigration, the Socialists are being increasingly perceived as unable to address mounting concerns about crime as well France&#8217;s persisting economic malaise.

In a reflection of that sentiment, President Francois Hollande's popularity rating has plummeted to an all-time low of 29 percent.

France is grappling with record unemployment of more than three million, a huge budget deficit and slow economic growth.

French Finance Minister Pierre Moscovici on Sunday said it was vital for the ruling Socialists "to preserve and win back the support of the working classes."

*France's "main party"?*

It was necessary to "fight the Front National by showing that it brings false solutions and that our economic and social policies deliver results," Moscovici told the weekly Journal du Dimanche on Sunday.

"The French economy is indisputably in better shape," he argued. "France is doing better than the eurozone and better than what was forecast before summer."

With the government suffering from unpopularity, former president Nicolas Sarkozy&#8217;s centre-right UMP has been wracked by infighting, which could also work to the FN's advantage.

Marine Le Pen has claimed that the FN was now "France's main party".

"The French are showing a wish to take their destiny into their hands and give back their country its sovereignty," FN secretary general Steeve Briois said this week, promising an "unprecedented earthquake" in the European Parliament elections.

Since taking over as FN leader in 2011, Marine Le Pen has tried to broaden the appeal of a party whose image has long been linked to the personality of her firebrand 85-year-old father, who has convictions for incitement to racial hatred and for Holocaust denial.

The FN has expelled overtly racist activists and selected a number of ethnic minority candidates for local elections, as well as increasing its focus on policy issues other than immigration and the EU.


French far-right candidate wins key local by-election - FRANCE - FRANCE 24

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## flamer84

SenLin said:


> *Moscow police arrest 1,200 migrants after riots*
> 
> _'Pre-emptive raid' after ultranationalists trash vegetable warehouse in unrest sparked by murder of ethnic Russian_
> 
> 
> Moscow police rounded up and arrested more than a thousand migrant workers at a vegetable warehouse on Monday morning, hours after hundreds of ultranationalists clashed with riot police. The rioters had overturned cars and raided a shopping centre used by migrants after the murder of an ethnic Russian was blamed on a man from the Caucasus.
> 
> Police arrested more than 1,200 people in what was called a "pre-emptive raid" on the warehouse where the rioters believed the killer worked, Russian news agencies reported.
> 
> Sunday's rioting in the southern Biryulyovo district of Moscow, which escalated after hundreds gathered where Egor Shcherbakov, 25, was murdered last week, marked the capital's worst nationalist unrest in three years.
> 
> Nationalist mobs chanted "Russia for Russians"and images from the scene show a car flipped on to its roof scattered in watermelons.
> 
> About 380 of the ultranationalists were arrested on Sunday night, although most were released. Seventy face administrative proceedings, while two are likely to face criminal charges. The police have opened a criminal investigation into "hooliganism".
> 
> Nationalists in masks hurled bottles at police, dressed in helmets and urban camouflage, who fought back with batons. Six riot police officers were wounded; two were taken to hospital.
> 
> The violence prompted the interior ministry on Sunday to activate Vulkan-5, an emergency security regime that deploys the entire Moscow police force and that was last activated after the Moscow metro bombings killed 40 people three years ago.
> 
> Late on Sunday night the police had the situation under control, although migrant communities remained tense. The head of the Federation of Migrants on Sunday warned migrants to remain at home for fear of random attacks across the city.
> 
> Police have said Shcherbakov was stabbed in front of his girlfriend on 10 October. The following day a photograph of an alleged suspect, who appeared to be from the Caucasus region, was circulating on nationalist websites.
> 
> In December 2010, violence erupted in the capital when thousands of ultranationalists massed outside the walls of the Kremlin after an ethnic Russian football fan was killed by a man from the North Caucasus.
> 
> Animosity towards immigration has grown rapidly in the last 10 years as the inflow of migrants from central Asia and Russia's north Caucasus region has boomed.
> 
> 
> Moscow police arrest 1,200 migrants after riots | World news | theguardian.com



This deserves its own thread.

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## Karasonmuno

flamer84 said:


> This deserves its own thread.



Is there any nationalism in Romania, Flamer? Romanians to me at least usually seem balanced and likable compared to most other Europeans.


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## flamer84

Karasonmuno said:


> Is there any nationalism in Romania, Flamer? Romanians to me at least usually seem balanced and likable compared to most other Europeans.



There is a nationalist party,they have like 100 members but it depends what do you understand by nationalist.I am a nationalist for example in the sence that i love my country but we don't have anything like Jobbik (Hungary) ,Golden Dawn (Greece ),Neo nazis (Germany) or some other such parties like in France,Italy,Sweden,etc.I don't associate the parties i've mentioned with nationalism,they are extremist altough they do have many valid points.

Romania doesn't have such problems like western countries in regards to immigration altough we are plagued by a troublesome minority:the gypsies.


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## Desert Fox

*Nationalist Youth Marching Against the EU in Vienna*








Right-wing nationalists of the Identitarian Movement held a rally in Vienna on May 17. Organizing themselves across social media, members of factions across Europe flooded in from France, Belgium, Italy, and Switzerland to join the Austrian faction to demonstrate against the EU.

To combat the protest, an anti-fascist group known as Offense Against the Right also gathered in the Austrian capital. As crowds became increasingly angry, police moved in to arrest protesters and separate the two opposing factions. VICE News was there to witness the clash of Europe’s new generation of extreme political movements.








@flamer84 @senheiser @vostok


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## flamer84

Desert Fox said:


> *Nationalist Youth Marching Against the EU in Vienna*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @flamer84 @senheiser @vostok




I happen to think that the EU is Europe's best chance to remain relevant on the world stage but reforms must take place if it wants to endure.


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## Desert Fox

flamer84 said:


> I happen to think that the EU is Europe's best chance to remain relevant on the world stage but reforms must take place if it wants to endure.


Perhaps if the leftists/globalists within E.U are filtered out. Though, i'm just an observer, haven't lived in Europe to make any clear judgements but many prominent European Politicians are quick to label any Nationalist movement as "fascist" and "neo-Nazi" in nature in order to discredit and defame these rising Nationalist parties even though these people's (the Nationalists) concerns are legitimate . Too much political correctness and only radical changes within the E.U would truly make it a pro-European alliance.


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## flamer84

Desert Fox said:


> Perhaps if the leftists/globalists within E.U are filtered out. Though, i'm just an observer, haven't lived in Europe to make any clear judgements but many prominent European Politicians are quick to label any Nationalist movement as "fascist" and "neo-Nazi" in nature in order to discredit and defame these rising Nationalist parties even though these people's (the Nationalists) concerns are legitimate . Too much political correctness and only radical changes within the E.U would truly make it a pro-European alliance.




If it were up to me i would ban the Left from European politics altogether.They're our cancer.

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## Desert Fox

flamer84 said:


> If it were up to me i would ban the Left from European politics altogether.They're our cancer.


Yes, they are the problem. They are the major reason for the internal decay within every European country they have infected.

If you watch the video i posted in post #290 at exactly minute 1:19 in the video you will see the anti-nationalists counter protesting against the Nationalists, and the anti-Nationalist group is made up of a bunch of clowns (literally) due to the way they carry themselves in the way they dress, hair color, piercings, etc, while on the other hand all of the Nationalists are well dressed, clean cut, and disciplined in the way they are carrying their own rally.

The leftists are truly degenerate.


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## flamer84

Desert Fox said:


> Yes, they are the problem. They are the major reason for the internal decay within every European country they have infected.
> 
> If you watch the video i posted in post #290 at exactly minute 1:19 in the video you will see the anti-nationalists counter protesting against the Nationalists, and the anti-Nationalist group is made up of a bunch of clowns (literally) due to the way they carry themselves in the way they dress, hair color, piercings, etc, while on the other hand all of the Nationalists are well dressed, clean cut, and disciplined in the way they are carrying their own rally.
> 
> The leftists are truly degenerate.




These guys live in a paralel world.If it were up to them the State must take care of everybody + outsiders from everywhere,there would be no Armed Forces because the money should go on welfare and the ideea of a nation state abolished.

Even in Romania every time socialists come in power (like now) wages for state employees and welfare go up.This is ofcourse sustained by higher taxes on the private sector,you know,the ones who actually back the economy in the real world.

And yes,most of them look like stoned hippies and all they do is whine about "Nazis" if you disagree with them..."Nazis and racists",the 2 words so dear to them.

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## Desert Fox

flamer84 said:


> These guys live in a paralel world.If it were up to them the State must take care of everybody + outsiders from everywhere,there would be no Armed Forces because the money should go on welfare and the ideea of a nation state abolished.
> 
> Even in Romania every time socialists come in power (like now) wages for state employees and welfare go up.This is ofcourse sustained by higher taxes on the private sector,you know,the ones who actually back the economy in the real world.
> 
> And yes,most of them look like stoned hippies and all they do is whine about "Nazis" if you disagree with them..."Nazis and racists",the 2 words so dear to them.


For a non-European like myself, it is hard to understand why these leftists have enjoyed popular support for some time until recently, and why do they dominate the gov.t's of major European countries?? Do you have any idea as to why??

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## flamer84

Desert Fox said:


> For a non-European like myself, it is hard to understand why these leftists have enjoyed popular support for some time until recently, and why do they dominate the gov.t's of major European countries?? Do you have any idea as to why??




Simple really.As i've said,they're the ones increasing welfare,social subsidies and wages for state employees.Add this their backing for immigration( in the West ) and you'll see that they have a steady flow of voters.Plus,the Right isn't always united not to mention that many center right parties are actually leftists in disguise.Even Conservatives in Europe are liars most of the time.

In conclusion,a clean sweep of current political elites is badly needed.

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## Desert Fox

flamer84 said:


> Simple really.As i've said,they're the ones increasing welfare,social subsidies and wages for state employees.Add this their backing for immigration( in the West ) and you'll see that they have a steady flow of voters.Plus,the Right isn't always united not to mention that many center right parties are actually leftists in disguise.Even Conservatives in Europe are liars most of the time.
> 
> In conclusion,a clean sweep of current political elites is badly needed.


Interesting. What do you think of Hitler and the "Nazis" (National Socialists/National Socialism)?? That is, barring the alleged atrocities which Hitler and his movement were accused of committing by their victorious enemies. To many Europeans they represented the genuine European Nationalist movement on which many Nationalist movements today base themselves off of (secretly that is). In other words they laid the foundations for modern Nationalism.


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## flamer84

Desert Fox said:


> Interesting. What do you think of Hitler and the "Nazis" (National Socialists/National Socialism)?? That is, barring the alleged atrocities which Hitler and his movement were accused of committing by their victorious enemies. To many Europeans they represented the genuine European Nationalist movement on which many Nationalist movements today base themselves off of (secretly that is). In other words they laid the foundations for modern Nationalism.




Actually Nationalism has roots in Europe from the 19th century.I do not have the superiority feeling that the National Socialists had,for me loving your country is just that not a sentiment of higher belonging than other nations.

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## Desert Fox

flamer84 said:


> Actually Nationalism has roots in Europe from the 19th century.I do not have the superiority feeling that the National Socialists had,for me loving your country is just that not a sentiment of higher belonging than other nations.


I see where you are coming from. Yes Nationalism as a major political ideology does have its roots in 19th century Europe. However i do believe it existed prior to that in different and less prominent forms.

Coming to the point you made about National Socialism. That is one of the misconceptions of the ideology that most people have today due to the misinformation spread by certain concerned influential political organizations due to their own agenda.

Did the National Socialists take pride in their own race, its heritage, and the civilization built by their people?? Yes!

Did they view other races with hatred and contempt?? No!

Hitler made this clear himself in Mein Kampf and in private discussions. Here is a quote of his:

"In saying this, *I promise you I am quite free of all racial hatred*. It is, in any case, undesirable that one race should mix with other races. Except for a few gratuitous successes, which I am prepared to admit, systematic cross-breeding has never produced good results. Its desire to remain racially pure is a proof of the vitality and good health of a race. *Pride in one's own race—and that does not imply contempt for other races—is also a normal and healthy sentiment. I have never regarded the Chinese or the Japanese as being inferior to ourselves.* They belong to ancient civilisations, and* I admit freely that their past history is superior to our own.* *They have the right to be proud of their past, just as we have the right to be proud of the civilization to which we belong. Indeed, I believe the more steadfast the Chinese and the Japanese remain in their pride of race, the easier I shall find it to get on with them."* (13th February 1945)

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## NACIONALISTA

Interesting thread. @Desert Fox are you Pakistani or European?


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## Desert Fox

NACIONALISTA said:


> Interesting thread. @Desert Fox are you Pakistani or European?


Pakistani.


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## vostok

Desert Fox said:


> *Nationalist Youth Marching Against the EU in Vienna*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right-wing nationalists of the Identitarian Movement held a rally in Vienna on May 17. Organizing themselves across social media, members of factions across Europe flooded in from France, Belgium, Italy, and Switzerland to join the Austrian faction to demonstrate against the EU.
> 
> To combat the protest, an anti-fascist group known as Offense Against the Right also gathered in the Austrian capital. As crowds became increasingly angry, police moved in to arrest protesters and separate the two opposing factions. VICE News was there to witness the clash of Europe’s new generation of extreme political movements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @flamer84 @senheiser @vostok


I support the European right-wing in the sense that they are at the moment - the only force acting to preserve white Christian Europe. But I - not a fan of the madman Hitler.

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## Desert Fox

*Greece's Golden Dawn party describes Hitler as 'great personality'*

Golden Dawn MP Ilias Panagiotaros cements party's credentials as neo-Nazi force in interview with Australian current affairs show







Cementing its credentials as an unapologetic neo-Nazi force, Greece's increasingly combative Golden Dawn party has hailed Hitler as a "great personality" and denounced homosexuality as a "sickness".
In a rare interview with a foreign media outlet before May's European elections, the Golden Dawn MP Ilias Panagiotaros told the Australian current affairs show 60 Minutes the group was involved in an "extremely ugly [war]" and that "in every period of time, there must be, there are, some people who are doing the dirty work".

When asked about Hitler, Panagiotaros, who is widely seen as the organisation's chief overseas strategist, described him as a "great personality, like Stalin".

With its leadership imprisoned and more than half of its 16-strong parliamentary group under criminal investigation, Golden Dawn has previously attempted to minimise any association with nazism. Fascist salutes among party cadres and the group's swastika-style emblem have been played down. So, too, have video recordings, speeches and documents confiscated from the computers of its jailed elite that have depicted the force as headed by an all-powerful führer and a rigid hierarchy resonant of the Nazi party.

But Golden Dawn has clearly decided to up the ante as European elections and Greek local elections, also in May, approach. It was unclear, however, whether Panagiotaros' inflammatory comments were indicative of the extremists' renewed confidence or fear in the face of crisis.

Extolling the virtues of a "one-race nation", Panagiotaros, who also faces charges of participating in a criminal gang, lashed out at the minorities the party considers deviant in the 60 Minutes interview, describing Muslim immigrants as jihadists and gays as "faggots".

"Until 1997, [the] international association of doctors, and I don't know what, considered homosexuality a sickness, illness, which it is."

In October 2012, at the height of Greece's economic and social crisis, Panagiotaros led a mob that prevented a Greek performance of Terence McNally's Corpus Christi – in which Jesus is portrayed as a gay man – from being staged. Panagiotaros brushed off the incident, describing its director, Laertis Vasiliou, as "an Albanian faggot. A stupid idiot."

Members of Greece's gay community and dark-skinned immigrants have been singled out for attack by Golden Dawn hit squads. The paramilitary units roamed the streets with seeming impunity until a government crackdown against the group spurred by the murder last September of the Greek musician and anti-fascist activist Pavlos Fyssas.

Panagiotaros, Golden Dawn's candidate for governor of the Attica region in the May local elections, vowed this week to release more videos detailing the group's murky relations with other parties. Earlier this month, secretly filmed footage released by the neo-fascists showed the prime minister Antonis Samaras' chief of staff telling Golden Dawn's spokesman that a criminal investigation had been ordered against it out of a fear the party was stealing votes from the ruling conservatives. Golden Dawn, until recently Greece's third biggest political force, has since seen a rebound in the polls.

It has also won the support of Voula Patoulidou, one of Greece's greatest sporting legends. The women's 100m hurdles gold medallist in the 1992 Barcelona Olympics described the ongoing criminal inquiry as politically motivated and based on lies.

Golden Dawn has pledged to hold a "Greek only" food handout on the Thursday before Easter, the most important religious festival in the Orthodox calendar.

Greece's Golden Dawn party describes Hitler as 'great personality' | World news | theguardian.com


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## Schutz

I think most will support the far right over the next decade but where do you draw the line, I dont see "nazi" type of parties ever becoming popular (no matter how much some people want to call Ukranians nazis). I think people of all the nations from the East in Russia to the west in the UK will start to feel like the preservation of their culture/people will take centre stage but mainly with the anti-Islam type of speech being the prevailing factor. There is already alot of racism and hostility in the East towards minorities and although its very uncommon the further west you go it is increasing, I think alot of the behaviour is understandable but still ignorant though with all of the extremists and attacks in the world always bearing the name of Islam

Right now most of Europe is being taking for a ride, far to many average people who arent inclined to discriminate are starting to change how they feel, poor people from the shitholes of Europe and hordes of Muslims invading any country with wealth, abusing welfare systems, most having little desire to work and all sitting at home popping babies out every year at zero cost to them and of course the free medical treatment is costly.

I went to the doctors a few months back for probably the second time in my life and it was due to a car crash I was in.
In the UK they have something called open surgery where you can visit your local doctors office in the morning to guarantee an appointment within say an hour for any non emergency needs such as a sick child or if you have a bad chest and want some anti biotics etc. I get there to see about 50 people waiting (there are only 2 doctors and 2 nurses in the morning, its a small building) there were a load of local undesirables who clearly have no interest in working which is bad enough but then I see people who are Romanian (clearly unemployed also) someone who I know is Latvian and then about 20 of the people being of "middle easteren" descent where some could not even speak English and you can tell that most of them dont work. 

I dont really care personally but seeing how overused our health system is by people who shouldnt be here sickens me. I hate the argument that the health system also RELIES on immigrants because the immigrants who work in hospitals etc are not these people, there are two types of immigrants...those who wish to take their skills elsewhere to earn a better wage and get a better quality of life and those who want to take from the country they plan on living in. Those who want to work hard should be welcomed in and helped to settle in the country as anybody willing to help other people deserve a place in any civilised society, whether we need them or not. Then the other people, probably not even as prevalent but the media make them seem so, these are the ones that people notice because these are the people who you see walking around in the day time, filling up doctors waiting rooms, claiming their state benefits, that is sadly the face of immigration for many across the world and this is why alot of people bear resentment towards immigrants.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Desert Fox

*Three Golden Dawn Members to Enter European Parliament*

May 27, 2014
*Complete waves of shock have made their way through the system, with Golden Dawn being the only REAL winner of the Election.*

Through it all, unprecedented political persecution, murders and illegal imprisonment, the Greek people have now elected 3 candidates to speak for us in the European Parliament.

Before we introduce them, let us point out the huge difference in character and quality when comparing them to these typical thieves, liars and degenerates in the European Parliament.

*The three MEPs are:*





*Lambros Fountoulis:* Mr. Lambros Fountoulis is father of the hero Giorgos Fountoulis, who gave his life in the struggle for a free Greece. Lambros considered it a sacred obligation to continue this fight in memory of Giorgos until the final victory. From the very first moment of his sons sacrifice, he stated:

_“I am proud of the ideas and patriotism of Giorgos. I saw that he put himself in the line of fire just to protect his brothers. I will not let their ideas and beliefs be in vain. I know he was a fighter raised with the same values and principles that my father raised me with. These same values I bequeathed to my child. *He became a proud GREEK and wanted to live in a better GREECE. Without thieves and cheats who see Greeks as merely numbers, devastating their lives and telling them to obey the international moneylenders who consider Greece a colony*. “_





*General Giorgos Epitideios :* General Giorgos Epitideios comes from Psana, on the island of Evia and was born in 1953. He graduated from the Military Academy, the Higher War College and the National Defense College. He also graduated from the Department of Basic Education for Officers on guided missiles in both Greece and the USA, and the Department of Advanced Education for Officers Artillery School in Greece and the USA. He has served in weapon units, and as staff officer in the General Staff of Defense. He also served as Deputy Governor Merarchias, Commander of the Artillery School, Division Director and Branch Manager of Defense. He also served as Staff Officer at Headquarters of Allied Powers in Europe (SHAPE), the International Military Staff of NATO (IMS) and as Director of the Department of Current Operations and Crisis Management of the Military Staff of the European Union (EUMS). He handled matters for many years for NATO and the European Union (Business Plans, crisis management, Doctrines, Policy, Exercises and Operations Logistics). He also represented our country as a senior National Representative in the meetings for the design of Exercises, Doctrine and Operational Logistics to NATO and the European Union.





*General Eleftherios Synadinos*: General Eleftherios Synadinos was born in 1955 in Argos Orestiko, a town in the western part of Macedonia outside Kastoria. He entered the Military Academy in 1975 and graduated in 1979 as Second Lieutenant of Infantry. He graduated from all schools pertaining to weapons, all Special Forces School of IPCs, and the National Defence College. He has served in all types of units and has all command echelons, Commanded Special Forces up to the brigade level. Specifically, the command has LS/32 TAXPN, the CCM, the LMK in Cyprus, Greek Kosovo Force (ELDYK) and since May 2007 and for 2 years, 1 CCT TAX-AL. He has also served as a staff officer in 32 TAXPN in VSS and Head of the Sector Plans Olympic Games. From March 2009 until March 2010 at the rank of Brigadier, he was Deputy Director of the GES / TEN where he was promoted to the rank of Major.

Three Golden Dawn Members to Enter European Parliament | Daily Stormer


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## Tshering22

Considering that they are not entering through violence but ate voted by their people, it is their mandate.

Technically we have no ground to say stuff to them.


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## Desert Fox

*Video: 'Europe Belongs To Us' say a growing number of European Youth*



*



*


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## Desert Fox

*Somali immigrants Gang-Rape young White Girl in the U.K.:*


*



*






BNP – working to expose police incompetence and to empower our community to resist racially motivated sex hate crime.

A unique, powerful new video in which Nick Griffin interviews a mother about the shocking failings of the police and authorities in the North West of England following the gang rape of her 16-year-old daughter.


When the police treat racist gang rape like petty crime, it’s time to make a stand for justice and to help spread awareness of the dangers. This video is just the beginning of the campaign.


Justice for Victims of grooming.


Awareness is the first step to safety.


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## Tshering22

Yeti said:


> These Far Right groups in Eastern Europe are known to make monkey noises when a black player touches the football yet they still like to migrate to the liberal cities of the west seeking employment
> 
> 
> Im wondering if there is a direct link with the economic turmoil going on in Greece which has led many to flock to groups like the Golden Dawn and increase the popularity among the masses.



Most of the nationalists whether patriotic or extremists, often rise to take radical measures. If these guys are simply patriotic they will take advance measures to save their economy like Shinzo Abe of Japan or our own Indian PM Modi.

But if they are extreme lile in the case of Golden Dawn who comes to power by threatening the immigrant community then it spells a lot of trouble for the Europeans, as these people will do more damage to the European economies than any good.


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## Superboy

Is LDPR getting more popular in Russia? It used to be the most popular party back in 1993.


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## Desert Fox

*Forced Integation: Rural school deemed 'too white' by Ofsted visits London to mix with ethnic pupils*​A small rural primary school has organised a sleepover to London – so the children get a chance to see people who are not white.

Payhembury Primary in Devon was criticised by Ofsted for being insufficiently ‘multicultural’.

So the 68-pupil Church of England school is asking parents to pay for their children to make a two-day trip to a school with a wide mix of ethnic backgrounds.






The visit – described by one parent as patronising and bizarre – has been sold to parents as a way of boosting Payhembury’s Ofsted grade from good to the top rating of outstanding.

The school they are visiting, Smallberry Green in Isleworth, West London – where three-quarters of the 410 pupils are from ethnic minorities – achieved the same good Ofsted rating.

Explaining the motivation for the trip, Payhembury headteacher Penny Hammett told parents in a letter: ‘The purpose of this trip is to build up a relationship with a school in a very different community to ours.

'This will enable our children to gain a better understanding of multicultural Britain, which was identified in our last Ofsted as being an area for development.

‘Through our topics, visitors and discussions we have been developing multicultural awareness in both Britain and throughout the world, but this visit will help us to experience in real life a school where there is a wide mix of children with different ethnic backgrounds and almost 50 per cent of the children do not have English as their first language.’

The letter also explains that four teachers will accompany the children on the two-day trip, which will involve pupils sleeping in the Isleworth school and using its catering facilities, for an estimated cost of £35.

While in London, the Devon children will engage in outdoor activities and record a CD.

Pupils from the school have written to their new pen-pals in London, some of whom will take part in a return visit to the school, near Honiton.

Mrs Hammett’s letter invites parents to a meeting to discuss the trip. But yesterday one mother said: ‘I’m astounded by this idea. Just because the children go to a small school in the country does not mean they aren’t aware of people with different coloured skin to them.

'It’s very patronising – and for the school they are visiting too.'






‘We are being asked to shell out £35 to try and boost their next Ofsted inspection. I think it’s a very cynical approach.’

However, another parent supported the initiative, saying: ‘I think it’s a nice idea.

‘We don’t live in an ethnically diverse area, so it’s good for the kids to meet children from other kinds of background.’

In Isleworth, student Usna Hakimi, 19, who was picking up her two sisters up from Smallberry Green, said: ‘They’ve just told me about the sleepover and they’re quite excited to meet other children from a different part of England. It’s good for them to learn about other cultures.’

Smallberry Green head Caroline Hodges said the trip was organised with Payhembury because it places emphasis on outdoor learning.

‘The children will not be doing any cultural activities when they are here,’ she said.

The Rev Cate Edmonds, chairman of the governors at Payhembury, said: ‘We are fairly mono-cultural as an area in Devon and we don’t want children growing up thinking the whole world is full of trees and cows. This gives them an experience of urban living.

Mrs Hammett said the trip, in which 29 pupils are taking part, *was about providing an enriching experience for the children at both schools.*






‘Devon is very quaint but our children don’t get to see the big wide world,’ she said.

At Ofsted’s last visit in 2010, inspectors praised Payhembury as a *‘happy place’ but pointed out all the pupils were of ‘white British heritage’.*

Their report recommended ‘improving links with communities in contrasting parts of the UK and abroad’.

Last night Ofsted said at that time inspectors were required to report on the contribution made by the school to community cohesion, a requirement removed in 2011.

*Rural school deemed 'too white' by Ofsted visits London to mix with ethnic pupils | Mail Online*


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## Jungibaaz

Schutz said:


> I think most will support the far right over the next decade but where do you draw the line, I dont see "nazi" type of parties ever becoming popular (no matter how much some people want to call Ukranians nazis). I think people of all the nations from the East in Russia to the west in the UK will start to feel like the preservation of their culture/people will take centre stage but mainly with the anti-Islam type of speech being the prevailing factor. There is already alot of racism and hostility in the East towards minorities and although its very uncommon the further west you go it is increasing, I think alot of the behaviour is understandable but still ignorant though with all of the extremists and attacks in the world always bearing the name of Islam
> 
> Right now most of Europe is being taking for a ride, far to many average people who arent inclined to discriminate are starting to change how they feel, poor people from the shitholes of Europe and hordes of Muslims invading any country with wealth, abusing welfare systems, most having little desire to work and all sitting at home popping babies out every year at zero cost to them and of course the free medical treatment is costly.
> 
> I went to the doctors a few months back for probably the second time in my life and it was due to a car crash I was in.
> In the UK they have something called open surgery where you can visit your local doctors office in the morning to guarantee an appointment within say an hour for any non emergency needs such as a sick child or if you have a bad chest and want some anti biotics etc. I get there to see about 50 people waiting (there are only 2 doctors and 2 nurses in the morning, its a small building) there were a load of local undesirables who clearly have no interest in working which is bad enough but then I see people who are Romanian (clearly unemployed also) someone who I know is Latvian and then about 20 of the people being of "middle easteren" descent where some could not even speak English and you can tell that most of them dont work.
> 
> I dont really care personally but seeing how overused our health system is by people who shouldnt be here sickens me. I hate the argument that the health system also RELIES on immigrants because the immigrants who work in hospitals etc are not these people, there are two types of immigrants...those who wish to take their skills elsewhere to earn a better wage and get a better quality of life and those who want to take from the country they plan on living in. Those who want to work hard should be welcomed in and helped to settle in the country as anybody willing to help other people deserve a place in any civilised society, whether we need them or not. Then the other people, probably not even as prevalent but the media make them seem so, these are the ones that people notice because these are the people who you see walking around in the day time, filling up doctors waiting rooms, claiming their state benefits, that is sadly the face of immigration for many across the world and this is why alot of people bear resentment towards immigrants.



I am actually quite concerned at the rise of the far right.

Militant extremist muslim types are a big threat and give off a bad image, sure. But I fear not for the sake of Britain when I think of them. They are not local most of them, their ideology is not imported, so the only real damage they deliver is pale in comparison.

But the far right are becoming very comfortable. 5 years ago, people would have thought twice before saying they support certain policies that are deemed to be far right. Now they say it and we all accept it as a valid section of society. 

This threat I feel is far greater. Please don't get caught up in details. Is it Nazism? No. But does it have to be? 
The type of far right nationalism of today is a textbook example of any any far right movement in history. Strip away the historical context and the differences in the details, and you have the basic ideology as the same, the approach to different problems stems from very similar beliefs and belief systems.

However, it has to be said, the time as always of the popularity of these kinds of movement is uncanny. Things go pear-shaped, people start to for scapegoats, and look elsewhere for solutions sometimes deviating form mainstream politics and sometimes deviating from social norms and accepted customs of a society. It really isn't anything new.

Hence again, these kind of far right movement exhibit the same kind of characteristics as they did during previous such movements.


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## Schutz

Tshering22 said:


> Most of the nationalists whether patriotic or extremists, often rise to take radical measures. If these guys are simply patriotic they will take advance measures to save their economy like Shinzo Abe of Japan or our own Indian PM Modi.
> 
> But if they are extreme lile in the case of Golden Dawn who comes to power by threatening the immigrant community then it spells a lot of trouble for the Europeans, as these people will do more damage to the European economies than any good.



The extreme parties and or people are generally in the poorer countries of Europe where your less likely to find well integrated communities. Tends to be the further East you go the worse it gets then when you hit places like Russia/Ukraine they have quite high numbers (they are decreasing and are not alarmingly high though) of racist attacks/murders on minorities, used to be plenty of videos on youtube of gangs of skinheads mainly in Russia targeting people on the metro etc but I believe its calmed down alot.

It usually goes back to the same problem, poverty. The poorer a country the more likely the populous look for answers to the many problems that exist, thats why racist attacks on minorities are higher in the East/Southern regions of Europe whereas in places like the UK something like half the racist attacks actually occur on white people. It just shows that humans really are feeble individuals and that these racist ideologies are for most people not really that real, just something they can cling to in times of despair and use as a scapegoat, which is why again that with the economic crisis we saw an increase in nationalist and racist tendencies by people.

Its pretty much fine here in the UK as it is in the other wealthier nations in Europe but as I said, the attacks happen far more (percentage wise) against whites, same in Scandinavia aswell so it also shows why some people are taking a nationalist identity because they see stories of white people being gang raped or attacked etc by Somalis/Pakistanis even though most Pakistanis are decent people (Cant say the same about Somalis, most people the world over who have encountered them have very little positive to say about them, they are violent people and dont value life although I know a few decent ones) alot of the population will believe the stories are a good stereotype of that diaspora.

Its sad when people do take the stories you see printed alot as a stereotype to use in real life, Indians are always fairly well presented and you never really see anything bad about Indian people so most people look quite highly at them and rightly so as they are high achievers whereas alot of stories in media where there are rapes, gang attacks and something which is quite common is car insurance fraud the people always have Pakistani names and then your average idiot thinks this is the standard for them people even though they are probably less than 1%.


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## SenLin

New polls show that Muslims, Sinti & Roma {gypsy) aren't liked that much by Germans.
Sorry, no English source available.


*Jeder Fünfte würde Sinti und Roma gerne abschieben*

Sinti und Roma werden nach einer Studie stark diskriminiert. Nicht wenige Deutsche halten sie gar für unintegrierbar. Ein Drittel lehnt eine historische Verantwortung für die Minderheit ab.


Kürzlich warnte eine Kriminalinspektion in Rheinland-Pfalz vor TasKüchendieben aus Südosteuropa, "zum größten Teil aus Rumänien, vereinzelt auch aus Bulgarien oder der Slowakei". Sie bat rund 200 Hoteliers in einer E-Mail "bei Zimmerbuchungen ein Augenmerk darauf zu richten, ob es sich um Personen aus diesen Herkunftsländern handelt" – und deren Personalien und Pkw-Kennzeichen an die Polizei weiterzugeben.

Christine Lüders, Leiterin der Antidiskriminierungsstelle des Bundes, nennt den Vorfall als Beispiel dafür, dass Abwertungen, Vorurteile und Pauschalisierungen gegen Sinti und Roma in allen Bevölkerungsgruppen anzutreffen seien. "Sinti und Roma werden nicht als gleichberechtigte Mitbürger wahrgenommen", sagt Lüders.

Die Antidiskriminierungsstelle hatte daher die erste repräsentative Studie in Auftrag gegeben, in der die Deutschen sagen, was sie über Sinti und Roma denken. "Die Ergebnisse sind Zeugnis von dramatischer Unwissenheit und Ablehnung der deutschen Bevölkerung gegenüber Sinti und Roma", sagt Lüders.

*Sinti und Roma die unbeliebteste Minderheit in Deutschland*

Sinti und Roma sind laut der Studie allgemein die unbeliebteste Minderheit in Deutschland – in keiner Gruppe sind die Antipathiewerte höher. 17 Prozent der Deutschen halten sie für sehr unsympathisch. Elf Prozent sagen das über Muslime, neun über Asylbewerber.

Eine direkte Nachbarschaft mit Sinti und Roma empfände rund ein Drittel aller Deutschen als eher unangenehm, unangenehm oder sogar sehr unangenehm. Fast die Hälfte der Befragten gab an, dass Angehörige dieser Gruppe durch ihr eigenes Verhalten Feindseligkeiten in der Bevölkerung hervorrufen würden. 15 Prozent halten Sinti und Roma für kriminell, 14 Prozent für nicht integrierbar, zehn Prozent für faul.

Zudem glaubt fast ein Drittel der Befragten nicht, dass Deutschland eine historische Verantwortung gegenüber Sinti und Roma habe, weil diese in der Zeit des Nationalsozialismus verfolgt worden waren. Zwölf Prozent halten gar ein Denkmal für die damals Ermordeten für unangemessen. Historiker schätzen die Zahl der Sinti und Roma, die den Nationalsozialisten zum Opfer fielen, auf 220.000 bis 500.000 Menschen.

*Nicht wenige sind für "gesonderte Unterbringung"*

In der repräsentativen Umfrage wurden die mehr als 2000 Teilnehmer auch befragt, wie ein gutes Zusammenleben mit Sinti und Roma erreicht werden könnte: 80 Prozent der Befragten schlugen vor, den Missbrauch von Sozialleistungen zu bekämpfen, 78 Prozent forderten, Kriminalität zu bekämpfen, und die Hälfte meinte, die Einreise von Roma und Sinti sollte beschränkt werden. Jeder Fünfte schlug eine Abschiebung aus Deutschland vor; immerhin 14 Prozent waren für eine "gesonderte Unterbringung".

Christine Lüders fordert angesichts solcher Aussagen, eine Reihe von Gegenmaßnahmen zu ergreifen: Die Gründung einer Bildungsakademie für Sinti und Roma, mit finanzieller Unterstützung von Bund und Ländern, die Jugendlichen der Sinti und Roma Unterstützung und Stipendien sichert. "Das bisschen Geld muss es Deutschland wert sein, in die Hand zu nehmen", sagte Lüders. Büffeln statt betteln, müsse das Motto sein. Einen jährlichen Bericht müsse es außerdem geben, der die Diskrimination sichtbar mache. "Ich möchte nicht in einem Land leben, in dem sich Sinti und Roma weiter verstecken müssen", sagt Lüders.

"Antisemitismus ist in Deutschland geächtet, Antiziganismus genießt weitgehend Narrenfreiheit", kritisierte Romani Rose, Vorsitzender des Zentralrats Deutscher Sinti und Roma. Er warnte davor, Armut an der Abstammung festzumachen. "Die Juden waren zu reich, die Roma sind zu arm." Das sei eine unzulässige Pauschalisierung.

Viele Roma würde zu Dumpinglöhnen als Feldarbeiter oder auf dem Bau beschäftigt. "Wir wollen festhalten, dass die überwiegende Mehrheit der Menschen aus Südosteuropa, ob Roma oder nicht, nach Arbeit sucht", ergänzte Lüders. "Wollen wir soziale Armut etwa durch Bettelverbot bekämpfen? Unsere Innenstädte säubern von allem, was uns unangenehm ist?"

*Bundestag soll Expertengremium einsetzen*

Eine bessere gesellschaftliche Teilhabe von Sinti und Roma könne etwa auch über eine Teilhabe in den Rundfunkräten gewährleistet werden. Außerdem regte Lüders an, eine entsprechende Arbeitsgruppe in der Kultusministerkonferenz einzurichten. Zudem soll der Bundestag eine Expertenkommission einsetzen, ähnlich dem Expertenkreis Antisemitismus. Das Gremium soll Benachteiligungen von Sinti und Roma bei Bildung, im Arbeitsmarkt oder bei der Wohnungssuche untersuchen und dem Parlament regelmäßig darüber berichten.

Die Grünen brachten bereits im Juli eine entsprechenden Antrag im Bundestag ein. Im Herbst soll das Parlament darüber debattieren. "Es ist eine Schande, dass rassistische Vorurteile fast 70 Jahre nach dem Völkermord an Sinti und Roma weiterhin derart verbreitet sind", sagte Tom Koenigs (Grüne), Sprecher für Menschenrechtspolitik, am Mittwoch. "Es ist höchste Zeit, daran etwas zu ändern – in Politik und Verwaltung, in den Schulen." Entstehungsbedingungen und Erscheinungsformen des Antiziganismus müssten systematisch untersucht, Wissen über Sinti und Roma vermittelt werden.

Nordrhein-Westfalens Integrationsminister Guntram Schneider (SPD) nannte die Ergebnisse der Studie alarmierend. "Denn es macht klar, dass die Gleichberechtigung aller europäischen Staatsbürger bei einem großen Teil in der deutschen Bevölkerung nicht verankert ist. Die Roma sind europäische Bürger. Sie sind die größte Minderheit der Europäischen Union mit etwa sechs Millionen Menschen." Sie zu diskriminieren komme der Ablehnung des europäischen Gedankens gleich.


Rassismus: Diskriminierung von Sinti und Roma verbreitet - Nachrichten Politik - Deutschland - DIE WELT


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## Aepsilons

Chinese-Dragon said:


> The funny thing is that the Nazis considered the Slavs to be "Untermensch" (sub-human).
> 
> Nazism and race - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> And now the largest number of Neo-Nazis in the world exist in Slavic countries like Russia and Eastern Europe?



That is very interesting. Saddening , too !

Let's hope this is only a minority of the population there.


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## Schutz

Nihonjin1051 said:


> That is very interesting. Saddening , too !
> 
> Let's hope this is only a minority of the population there.



Its strange the further east you get the more racist people become, I think it applies as you go into Asia aswell with many countries being homogeneous and not really friendly to outsiders. As for the term "nazis" of course they are not "nazis" nobody is these days, its just a term to say im a white man and I dislike people who dont look like me. There were also slavs in the German army during WW2, as long as you looked Germanic and were prepared to be Germanised then you would be welcome.


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## SenLin

*Sweden's far-right rises amid immigration debate*

STOCKHOLM (AP) — A Swedish far-right party demanding sharp cuts in immigration has more than doubled its support in a parliamentary election.

Ironically, the surge for the far-right Sweden Democrats means the country's government itself is poised to shift to the left, since many of the Sweden Democrats' new voters defected from Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt's center-right coalition. That left Stefan Lofven's Social Democrats and its smaller partners as the top vote-getter in Sunday's election.

Here's a guide to Sweden's shifting political situation:

A NEW GOVERNMENT IS COMING

Reinfeldt's four-party coalition, known as the Alliance, is out after eight years of tax cuts and pro-market policies that critics say have eroded Sweden's welfare system. The prime minister says he will resign Monday.

The Alliance lost 31 seats in the 349-member Parliament, paving the way for the left-leaning Social Democrats to start coalition talks on forming a new government.

Still, those talks are going to be complicated. Even with the support of the smaller Green and Left parties, the Social Democrats' bloc would only have 158 seats in Parliament, 17 short of a majority. It's also unclear if Lofven can get any support from the center-right parties.

A SURGE FOR THE FAR-RIGHT

Far-right parties with an anti-immigration agenda have gained ground across Europe for more than a decade. Sweden was an exception until four years ago when the Sweden Democrats entered Parliament.

Born out of a radical nationalist movement with neo-Nazi links, the Sweden Democrats have softened their rhetoric and expelled openly racist members. On Sunday they surged from 20 to 49 seats to become the third biggest party in Sweden's parliament. The Brussels-based European Jewish Congress called the vote a "wake-up call for Sweden and the rest of Europe."

This year, Sweden expects to accept up to 80,000 asylum-seekers from Syria, Eritrea, Iraq and Afghanistan, among other countries. Relative to Sweden's population, that's the biggest flow in the 28-nation European Union.

Surveys show about 40 percent of Swedes want less immigration. Yet before the Sweden Democrats, no party in parliament wanted to tighten the rules.

The other parties see it as their moral duty to keep wealthy Sweden's borders open to refugees fleeing war and poverty — and are likely to reach agreements across the political divide to keep the Sweden Democrats from having any influence on immigration.

MINORITY GOVERNMENT DEADLOCK

It looks like Lofven will be in charge of a weak left-leaning minority government that's going to struggle to push its agenda through parliament.

Lofven won't reverse Reinfeldt's most popular reforms, such as tax cuts for middle-income earners. The Social Democrats only want to raise taxes for people making more than $100,000 a year. But he has vowed to remove the tax breaks that made it cheaper for companies to hire young employees.

No dramatic shift in foreign policy is expected. Sweden, a member of the EU, will remain outside NATO and keep its krona instead of using the euro, the EU's common currency.

Sweden's far-right rises amid immigration debate - Yahoo News

_________________________________________________________________________


Interesting to see that even the ultra-liberal Swedes have slowly enough.


----------

