# Pakistan's Education system | Reforms & Upgrades.



## SekrutYakhni

Originally posted by Araz. 

"I am not sure whether a radical change in the system of education is required.* Text and content wise we are better than the western systems that we so envy. *However independant thinking needs to be inculcated and for that the teachers need to be trained.Every where in the world there are days set aside for teaching the trainers. Ever see that in Pakistan. 
Look I dont want to digress from the topic at hand. Please feel free to open a new thread and discuss the education needs separately. We can then shift the mails from this thread and continue there."
Araz



I am a bit confused here. Which 'text and content' are you talking about? There are three parallel systems running in the glorious country. i.e. Imported one, local and Madrassa type. Now the first one, imported, you cannot say that it is better than the west because it is already imported from there. Local (Matriculation system) is not better than the west; therefore, individuals prefer to do O and A levels. Madrassa system is not even at par with the local education system let alone the western system. You know why I emphasized more on changing the education system at grass root level? Majority of our people cannot go to schools like LGS etc so they end up going to government schools. Should I tell you the condition of government schools? So, we have to think for the majority. Introduce new and effective system in government schools. Take the example of India, only one uniformed system. We should uplift our existing system so we don't have to import our education system. Wasn't it a failure when we introduced a western system? For me it was because it shows that we failed to develop a local system. Open community schools--Social justice! It is the right of poor people to get same level of education as rich do! Yaar, jis mulk mien 9 and 10 ka aik year alag exams aur next year aik sath exams hoon, what do you expect from that education system? A bit too much experiments, eh!

So, if we are able to give a good education to our kids at junior level, they will automatically thrive in universities. If universities will get a 'lot' of thinkers rather than ratu baz, universities will further flourish the abilities of young brats. 

Defence budget has increased significantly, whereas, the education budget is at all time low--

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## nightcrawler

The biggest problem plaguing our system is the differentiation b/w Knowledge & Information; even teachers at univ levels ignore this primary fact

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## SekrutYakhni

nightcrawler said:


> The biggest problem plaguing our system is the differentiation b/w Knowledge & Information; even teachers at univ levels ignore this primary fact



We are not talking about teachers. First, let us debate on the education system than we will talk about teachers and students because they are the product of that system!

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## SQ8

nightcrawler said:


> The biggest problem plaguing our system is the differentiation b/w Knowledge & Information; even teachers at univ levels ignore this primary fact



Who are university teachers?
Seniors are actually retired engineers with PhD's.. only one in five are really established, polished teachers.. the others have a lot of knowledge but no idea how to pass it on.
Others are at maximum masters level .. some with experience in the field.. which are good only if they can impart knowledge.. 
others are just bachelors themselves who spent a few years as lab engineers before progressing to teachers.
Papers are published left and right by these people BUt WHERE I ask is the implementation.. the application?

Any education system where the student is taught lies about history.. (Islamic history deals with Tipu sultan to Ayub Khan). The teachers are there to earn money without knowing their jobs, those that hire them dont know their jobs. Those that write the books are still stuck in the 1930's. And most of all, what is taught never shows how that principle works in real life. 
Why blame O and A levels when the official system (already divided into multiple paralell and sometimes conflicting boards) cannot impart a quality syllabus.. where there is gap others will fill it. It is due to the O and A level system that many brilliant kids have excelled, and due our system that many brilliant kids have not.
The Madressas are for those illiterate people who would bow before the mullah if need be since they think his command of the Quran is supreme. And for others it is the only system possible. And let me give u a first hand account of the so called premier madressah in Peshawar situated right in front of the Corps house. Beatings, curses, fithy conditions topped with sodomy is the norm in that place.
Run by supposedly a very moderate and popular cleric.
To change anything..
scrap the syllabus and put actual qualified people to make it, not cronies or sycophants.
Start a teachers training program, have regular inspection, SHOOT teachers that impart incorrect knowledge,beat kids, or under-perform..because they are responsible for the future of the country..literally. And convert all madressas to schools, make normal subjects mandatory before the Quran is taught with translation... and blow up the others who resist.

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## Sinnerman108

santro said:


> Who are university teachers?
> Seniors are actually retired engineers with PhD's.. only one in five are really established, polished teachers.. the others have a lot of knowledge but no idea how to pass it on.
> Others are at maximum masters level .. some with experience in the field.. which are good only if they can impart knowledge..
> others are just bachelors themselves who spent a few years as lab engineers before progressing to teachers.
> Papers are published left and right by these people BUt WHERE I ask is the implementation.. the application?



I will dedicate my self to this thread only; this is way more important.

Santro, Lets try to take this as a system,
talking about individual components from the beginning will make it over complex.

My suggestion is to discuss the education SYSTEM as such, SYSTEM with input a student and output a scholar.
once we establish the design requirements, we will talk about components one by one and lastly try to culminate this in a set of suggestions.

What does the group say ? MODS can this be made into sticky ?
we can try to push this to HEC and MoE.

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## SQ8

salman108 said:


> I will dedicate my self to this thread only; this is way more important.
> 
> Santro, Lets try to take this as a system,
> talking about individual components from the beginning will make it over complex.
> 
> My suggestion is to discuss the education SYSTEM as such, SYSTEM with input a student and output a scholar.
> once we establish the design requirements, we will talk about components one by one and lastly try to culminate this in a set of suggestions.
> 
> What does the group say ? MODS can this be made into sticky ?
> we can try to push this to HEC and MoE.



Been done a lot of times, what you will notice after your attempt is a very formal letter by those currently in charge of the HEC outlining all that they have done and will be doing and telling you not to worry your head about it. 
Its Pakistani thinking that needs changing, and our collective stance as a nation. People keep crying about democracy; "democracy ensures that you will be governed no better than what you deserve".. I would extend that to "you will be governed, or taught, or fed, or armed with no better than what you deserve".

The System right now, is a very straight forward messed up sinusoidal system where the output rarely ever matches the input. 
And with little or no feedback into the loop.. its going to stay that way.
Our suggestion is feedback, but unfortunately, there is no provision in the current system to take it in.
I am accused of being negative by most around me.. but I apologize, years of watching my own countrymen cut each other up, without realizing the good and the potential withing them.. made me so.

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## nightcrawler

saad445566 said:


> We are not talking about teachers. First, let us debate on the education system than we will talk about teachers and students because they are the product of that system!



You misunderstood me!!
Just look at the books of Punjab text book so much information

Who did this
When did this happen
what was his name




I mean so many what;who;when but very minimum WHY

This I am talking about Information vs Knowledge
In primary education one must stress on *why*; to simulate curiosity . The purpose of education must not be to prepare a student for a *KON BANE GA CRORPATI*

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## Sinnerman108

yes Santro, we have all been through those cycles of frustration back home;

lets just say, I may be able to pull some strings here and there

and some people I know can help.

mind you, even if there was no light at the end of the tunnel, doesn't imply we don't work.


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## sparklingway

Reading "Shaping a Nation, an Examination of Education in Pakistan" these days. Will post my review and a number of snippets by the next week. Enlightening since the authors are some great academics.


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## SekrutYakhni

santro said:


> Who are university teachers?
> Seniors are actually retired engineers with PhD's.. only one in five are really established, polished teachers.. the others have a lot of knowledge but no idea how to pass it on.
> Others are at maximum masters level .. some with experience in the field.. which are good only if they can impart knowledge..
> others are just bachelors themselves who spent a few years as lab engineers before progressing to teachers.
> Papers are published left and right by these people BUt WHERE I ask is the implementation.. the application?
> 
> Any education system where the student is taught lies about history.. (Islamic history deals with Tipu sultan to Ayub Khan). The teachers are there to earn money without knowing their jobs, those that hire them dont know their jobs. Those that write the books are still stuck in the 1930's. And most of all, what is taught never shows how that principle works in real life.
> Why blame O and A levels when the official system (already divided into multiple paralell and sometimes conflicting boards) cannot impart a quality syllabus.. where there is gap others will fill it. It is due to the O and A level system that many brilliant kids have excelled, and due our system that many brilliant kids have not.
> *The Madressas are for those illiterate people who would bow before the mullah if need be since they think his command of the Quran is supreme.* And for others it is the only system possible. And let me give u a first hand account of the so called premier madressah in Peshawar situated right in front of the Corps house. Beatings, curses, fithy conditions topped with sodomy is the norm in that place.
> Run by supposedly a very moderate and popular cleric.
> To change anything..
> *scrap the syllabus and put actual qualified people to make it, not cronies or sycophants.
> Start a teachers training program, have regular inspection, SHOOT teachers that impart incorrect knowledge,beat kids, or under-perform..because they are responsible for the future of the country..literally. *And convert all madressas to schools, make normal subjects mandatory before the Quran is taught with translation... and blow up the others who resist.



*"The Madressas are for those illiterate people who would bow before the mullah if need be since they think his command of the Quran is supreme."*

Santro, we should not say anyone illiterate because we did not provide enough facilities to madrassa going students. Primary education should be compulsory and the gov should force individuals to join school. We have to take actions sooner than later if we want to avoid another generation of uneducated people. 
Other than that, I liked your post!

*"scrap the syllabus and put actual qualified people to make it, not cronies or sycophants.
Start a teachers training program, have regular inspection, SHOOT teachers that impart incorrect knowledge,beat kids, or under-perform..because they are responsible for the future of the country..literally."*





---------- Post added at 05:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:48 AM ----------




sparklingway said:


> Reading "Shaping a Nation, an Examination of Education in Pakistan" these days. Will post my review and a number of snippets by the next week. Enlightening since the authors are some great academics.




Appreciate your help sparklingview!


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Gentlemen---thanks for starting this thread that I happened to walk into blind folded.

Here is a recommendations----this thread needs to be in a very visible place---our purpose should be to expose as many pakistanis to this thread---would it be possible to place this thread in a place with the most visibility---the place that everyone wants to visit.

That is the the sticky portion of the air force thread---. Thankyou


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## Pride

I think I am entitled to my opinion here because we have some what similar education system.
First thing as per my recommendation is to close down such parallel education system which is Madarsa system. While I still suggest there should be Arabic/Persian language course in main stream of education to know the route. Madarsa system needs to have only that much of people who are required to perform religious rituals like Maulvis and Qazis. They are also important for our social system.

Second point as a reform is to have "Right of Education" for all which needs to be enforced with support of Law and normal people. This will ensure that childrens who are forced to do "child labour" in India/Pakistan will not be trapped and even if they have to do such work there should be some way to have education for them.

Third reformation stage could be for an average class to have free education or subisdy on that education. The money could be collected through 'Education cess' from corporates.

Fourth reform needs to rectify current education system in higher education. Stop if there are any kind of student politics are there. Extend the university exchange programs to call world renowned professors/ professionals for performing guest lectures as well as increase students exchange programs for few semesters. Corporates needs to provide more scholarships to those students who studies outside but come back to country after completing education to share the knowledge with fellow citizens.

Apart from this all government things, we can also be helpful for spreading the eductation as in my previous organisation, We used to teach our fourth grade employees' kids by devoting one hour after our professional life.

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## ajpirzada

we dont need to close anything. rather we should focus our energies in improving our local system. once it attains a level better than other parallel systems, people will themselves start switching. there is no point in forcing people to ride an inefficient train. 

the only question we should be looking at is how to improve our local schooling system. 

there is a very fundamental issue attached to this. fees in public schools is quite low making it harder to offer gud packages to teachers. end result is u get poor teachers against low wages. but when u will increase the fees then it will get hard for poor to send their children to school although ull end up getting gud quality teachers. 

a complex system can be come up with. charging people w.r.t. their earnings but that will be hard to implement in a country lik pakistan and might also lead to discrimination between students within a school. 

in the end u get an institutional network with low fee structure and poor quality teaching relying completely on government funding. now with many other problems at hand, education automatically takes a back seat. its quite evident that investing in education heavily is not a thing for politicians to do who look for cashing votes

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## Pride

ajpirzada said:


> we dont need to close anything. rather we should focus our energies in improving our local system. once it attains a level better than other parallel systems, people will themselves start switching. there is no point in forcing people to ride an inefficient train.
> 
> the only question we should be looking at is how to improve our local schooling system.
> 
> there is a very fundamental issue attached to this. fees in public schools is quite low making it harder to offer gud packages to teachers. end result is u get poor teachers against low wages. but when u will increase the fees then it will get hard for poor to send their children to school although ull end up getting gud quality teachers.
> 
> a complex system can be come up with. charging people w.r.t. their earnings but that will be hard to implement in a country lik pakistan and might also lead to discrimination between students within a school.
> 
> in the end u get an institutional network with low fee structure and poor quality teaching relying completely on government funding. now with many other problems at hand, education automatically takes a back seat. its quite evident that investing in education heavily is not a thing for politicians to do who look for cashing votes



ajpirzada, I think you were replying my first point. Hence I come up with explanation. AFAIK, Madarsa study is educational system only focused focused for languages and religions somewhat similar to Sanskrit vishvavidyalaya in India. Very few such schools carry studies of all subjects including History, science, maths etc.

If you wont stop such parallel system in its existence (except for few as I mentioned). Jamaati people will always try to influence others (specially poor) for such schools. I have seen this personally in my area while there were so many good schools, Jamaat comes to poor Muslim people's home and influence poors to study.


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## ajpirzada

Pride said:


> ajpirzada, I think you were replying my first point. Hence I come up with explanation. AFAIK, Madarsa study is educational system only focused focused for languages and religions somewhat similar to Sanskrit vishvavidyalaya in India. Very few such schools carry studies of all subjects including History, science, maths etc.
> 
> If you wont stop such parallel system in its existence (except for few as I mentioned). Jamaati people will always try to influence others (specially poor) for such schools. I have seen this personally in my area while there were so many good schools, Jamaat comes to poor Muslim people's home and influence poors to study.




http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/64481-busting-pakistans-madrassa-myth.html

not many people go to madrassa system and even those who do are not necessary involved in terrorist activities. there are only few ideological madrassas which need to be looked into. many of those who are involved in radical activities are those who were unemployed with no social prospects. they were given both sense of power and monetary benefit which lured them into such activities. 

many of those who send their children to typical madrassa are those who cannot afford to sustain their children. madrassa, however, not only provides some sort of education but also provides food and shelter. 

instead of focusing on closing down XYZ, we should focus towards improving our existing system through not only efficient utlization of resources but also progressive reforms.


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## Pride

ajpirzada said:


> http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/64481-busting-pakistans-madrassa-myth.html
> 
> not many people go to madrassa system and even those who do are not necessary involved in terrorist activities. there are only few ideological madrassas which need to be looked into. many of those who are involved in radical activities are those who were unemployed with no social prospects. they were given both sense of power and monetary benefit which lured them into such activities.
> 
> many of those who send their children to typical madrassa are those who cannot afford to sustain their children. madrassa, however, not only provides some sort of education but also provides food and shelter.
> 
> instead of focusing on closing down XYZ, we should focus towards improving our existing system through not only efficient utlization of resources but also progressive reforms.



ajpirzada,

With all due respect.. I am not discussing anything about whatever you mentioned here. As I am talking not only about Pakistan but for India as well.. These madarsa system (even 0.1% go) or any parallel education system needs to be shut down apart from religious perspective.

Regarding improvement on other aspects, I have quoted other points there. Request you to look at them as well.


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## ajpirzada

Pride said:


> ajpirzada,
> 
> With all due respect.. I am not discussing anything about whatever you mentioned here. As I am talking not only about Pakistan but for India as well.. These madarsa system (even 0.1% go) or any parallel education system needs to be shut down apart from religious perspective.
> 
> Regarding improvement on other aspects, I have quoted other points there. Request you to look at them as well.




jamaat comes to poor ppl house and asks them to register their children with them........... this is wat u said earlier.

wats wrong with that? they are marketing their facility lik anyother. and they influencing their students lik any other. 

looking at the stats, not many ppl send their children to these ppl and many who do are actually too poor to even feed their children. thus they send their children to jamaat ppl who not only educatue them in XYZ but also feed them etc

instead of fighting with them and closing their institutions, why shouldnt we invest our energies in taking our educational set up to poor lik they do?


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## Pride

ajpirzada said:


> jamaat comes to poor ppl house and asks them to register their children with them........... this is wat u said earlier.
> 
> wats wrong with that? they are marketing their facility lik anyother. and they influencing their students lik any other.


Yes this is what I said not in respect to Pakistan but in my locality.



> looking at the stats, not many ppl send their children to these ppl and many who do are actually too poor to even feed their children. thus they send their children to jamaat ppl who not only educatue them in XYZ but also feed them etc
> 
> instead of fighting with them and closing their institutions, why shouldnt we invest our energies in taking our educational set up to poor lik they do?



Ok lets not discuss this part, this was my idea to stop any kind of parallel education system apart from religious teaching (Like Maulvis and Pandits) to some specified sect. Why I want to do that because they dont have some uniformed curriculam and Hence such students dont get proper education.

Lets focus for other points. Is your education system is free? Like if I have money, Can I open one college or university (deemed may be)?


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## kugga

In my opinion First of all we should remove the class difference in education system coz in this way we are producing completely opposite views in our society. We must have a common curriculum so that who so ever gets education is not discriminated on the basis of his/her institute..
Right now we have 3 to 4 or even more education systems running in parallel that are generating completely different classes in the society.
For a nation to progress they must unite at least at one point but to this different education system every one in pakistan is so different and confused that it is very difficult to find out even a single common view among the nation.

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## nightcrawler

look 1st acknowledge the # of education systems running parallel just in Punjab

Matriculation Urdu medium
Matriculaion English Medium
Madrassah education
Cambridge Education




I mean when students all coming from above mentioned systems are lumped together in a university after their 12 years of *VARIED* education then what happen nothing but chaos & coercion of ones idea. Some talk about their Maulanas & Sunni groups (from Matriculation Madrassah) other (from Cambridge) produce a total different scenario; talking about Music fashion...........

So this creates a gap *within* a present generation & a pupil of one system dont even like to talk to the other one simply because the knowledge imparted to him in his 1st 12 years can't be ridiculed so easily!!

I am talking about this because I belong to Cambridge system & when I got admission into Govt. univ problems come to me like above; you must have a beard; dont be a secular guy; dont quote Pakistan history from Western writers books


So in conclusion I believe a single* DOMESTIC* education system must be developed such that we dont have to pour millions of rupees annually in Cambridge hands and also in illiterate Maulana hands!!


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## SekrutYakhni

*Originally posted by Ajpirzada:*

"there is a very fundamental issue attached to this. fees in public schools is quite low making it harder to offer gud packages to teachers. end result is u get poor teachers against low wages. *but when u will increase the fees then it will get hard for poor to send their children to school although ull end up getting gud quality teachers. "*

Can you elaborate?


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## SekrutYakhni

ajpirzada said:


> jamaat comes to poor ppl house and asks them to register their children with them........... this is wat u said earlier.
> 
> *wats wrong with that? they are marketing their facility lik anyother. and they influencing their students lik any other. *
> 
> looking at the stats, not many ppl send their children to these ppl and many who do are actually too poor to even feed their children. thus they send their children to jamaat ppl who not only educatue them in XYZ but also feed them etc
> 
> instead of fighting with them and closing their institutions, why shouldnt we invest our energies in taking our educational set up to poor lik they do?



*
"wats wrong with that? they are marketing their facility lik anyother. and they influencing their students lik any o*ther. "

No, they are not marketing their facility rather they are taking advantage of poverty. I never saw Madrassa people marketing in my area, why? Aren't we Muslims? They know that educated people will not let their children go to Madrassa because you can't learn Science, Histroy etc

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## SekrutYakhni

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Gentlemen---thanks for starting this thread that I happened to walk into blind folded.
> 
> Here is a recommendations----this thread needs to be in a very visible place---our purpose should be to expose as many pakistanis to this thread---would it be possible to place this thread in a place with the most visibility---the place that everyone wants to visit.
> 
> That is the the sticky portion of the air force thread---. Thankyou



Second that. Even though I appreciate that mods made this thread sticky but we won't be getting much views. Education system in Pakistan is a man made disaster which is spilling out of the banks. Mods, kindly shift this thread as Mr. Khan suggested so we can get more people involved, particularly the TTs and other educated people!

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## SekrutYakhni

Pride said:


> *I think I am entitled to my opinion here because we have some what similar education system.
> First thing as per my recommendation is to close down such parallel education system which is Madarsa system. *While I still suggest there should be Arabic/Persian language course in main stream of education to know the route. Madarsa system needs to have only that much of people who are required to perform religious rituals like Maulvis and Qazis. They are also important for our social system.
> 
> *Second point as a reform is to have "Right of Education" for all which needs to be enforced with support of Law and normal people. This will ensure that childrens who are forced to do "child labour" in India/Pakistan will not be trapped and even if they have to do such work there should be some way to have education for them.*
> 
> Third reformation stage could be for an average class to have free education or subisdy on that education. The money could be collected through 'Education cess' from corporates.
> 
> Fourth reform needs to rectify current education system in higher education. Stop if there are any kind of student politics are there. Extend the university exchange programs to call world renowned professors/ professionals for performing guest lectures as well as increase students exchange programs for few semesters. Corporates needs to provide more scholarships to those students who studies outside but come back to country after completing education to share the knowledge with fellow citizens.
> 
> Apart from this all government things, we can also be helpful for spreading the eductation as in my previous organisation, We used to teach our fourth grade employees' kids by devoting one hour after our professional life.



"I think I am entitled to my opinion here because we have some what similar education system.
First thing as per my recommendation is to close down such parallel education system which is Madarsa system. "

Agreed. We should integrate Islamic studies and Quran teaching in our local education system rather than leaving individuals to madrassa. 

"Second point as a reform is to have "Right of Education" for all which needs to be enforced with support of Law and normal people. This will ensure that childrens who are forced to do "child labour" in India/Pakistan will not be trapped and even if they have to do such work there should be some way to have education for them."

Child labour is a very complex issue. My two words--If we force children to go to schools, at least forty percent of them will get good jobs in future. However, during all those school years they have to support their family. In conclusion, either give rebates to the parents of school going kids (less fortunate ones) or allow child labour so the children can help their parents to come out of poverty.

There is a third dimension--Give technical training to the grown up people so their children do not have to do child labour while studying in school.


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## back me up

guys, i just found this about pakistani education system

SHOCKING to say the least... 

The subtle Subversion: A report on Curricula and Textbooks in Pakistan


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## Pride

saad445566 said:


> "I think I am entitled to my opinion here because we have some what similar education system.
> First thing as per my recommendation is to close down such parallel education system which is Madarsa system. "
> 
> Agreed. We should integrate Islamic studies and Quran teaching in our local education system rather than leaving individuals to madrassa.
> 
> "Second point as a reform is to have "Right of Education" for all which needs to be enforced with support of Law and normal people. This will ensure that childrens who are forced to do "child labour" in India/Pakistan will not be trapped and even if they have to do such work there should be some way to have education for them."
> 
> 
> Child labour is a very complex issue. My two words--If we force children to go to schools, at least forty percent of them will get good jobs in future. However, during all those school years they have to support their family.* In conclusion, either give rebates to the parents of school going kids (less fortunate ones) or allow child labour so the children can help their parents to come out of poverty.*


My point is same on this issue but I think this rebate part will again create problem seeing our corrupt system. We have Mid-day meal program where poor child atleast get one time food from GoI. What could be done in place of rebate is to provide a card and provide grains for their food. 



> *There is a third dimension--Give technical training to the grown up people so their children do not have to do child labour while studying in school.*


Father of 10 year old is not going to get any kind of education, trust me. They have more important work to earn their daily food. You can do anything with them under poverty resolution but can't do anything under Education reform.


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## bilal1219

First All, This Thread should be made Sticky In all the major threads like Navy army and air force. so that a person like me who is mostly on the air force section can follow it .

Secondly, As far as Education system is concerened, I have never studied in pakistan but rather studied it sylabbus in sudi arabia in O levels. i have been Informed that The Education On pakistan is not valued in european or north american countries that is why most of the pakistanis and indians as well go to foreign countries when then education is muych simpler.

My personal expeirnce: I finished my o levels from Saudi arabia in 2005-2006. Once i was done i went to study in canada for studying purpose with my family. When i went to school i was laughing when i saw their physics and chem books. all u had to do was just do homework and do well on test/exam and u can pull a decent grade without going to the class most of the time. Not only that, even after high school, i am in the 2nd year uni, and Allhamdulliah i have Pulled good grades and also renewed my scholarship. Now the question is, pakistan and india have a good and challenging education why are our degrees not recognised world wide whereas European and north american univerities that are much simpler have a higher value? My Uncle did Bio med. enginnering from punjab university with great marks and when he came to canada he was asked to do a certificate or a degree for him to get a decednt job with a decent pay.

Thanks!

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## back me up

bilal1219 said:


> First All, This Thread should be made Sticky In all the major threads like Navy army and air force. so that a person like me who is mostly on the air force section can follow it .
> 
> Secondly, As far as Education system is concerened, I have never studied in pakistan but rather studied it sylabbus in sudi arabia in O levels. i have been Informed that The Education On pakistan is not valued in european or north american countries *that is why most of the pakistanis and indians as well go to foreign countries* when then education is muych simpler.
> 
> My personal expeirnce: I finished my o levels from Saudi arabia in 2005-2006. Once i was done i went to study in canada for studying purpose with my family. When i went to school i was laughing when i saw their physics and chem books. all u had to do was just do homework and do well on test/exam and u can pull a decent grade without going to the class most of the time. Not only that, even after high school, i am in the 2nd year uni, and Allhamdulliah i have Pulled good grades and also renewed my scholarship. Now the question is, pakistan and india have a good and challenging education why are our degrees not recognised world wide whereas European and north american univerities that are much simpler have a higher value? My Uncle did Bio med. enginnering from punjab university with great marks and when he came to canada he was asked to do a certificate or a degree for him to get a decednt job with a decent pay.
> 
> Thanks!



i dont know about pakistan. but i can vouch for india


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## Sinnerman108

Gents, lets try not to get into politics and education, it's a dangerous marriage.

Now the institution of eduction is one component of the "system" which we want to debate about, so lets focus on "institutions" first.

see it is not the institution of Madrassah it self which should be opposed, it is the content and education practiced there which should be challenged.

If at all Madrassahs type institution have proven to be more successful than the regular schools; because they have been able to appeal to local on ground requirements better than the western type institutions.

Keeping in view the HUGE general population of Pakistan, what it seems they requires is an institution which:

a. will take care of their children from morning to evening.
b. Provide knowledge based education whilst upholding culture.
c. Preferably provide for food for the children as well.
d. separate schooling for girls and boys.

please add more, so we can define an ideal "institution".


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## SekrutYakhni

salman108 said:


> Gents, lets try not to get into politics and education, it's a dangerous marriage.
> 
> Now the institution of eduction is one component of the "system" which we want to debate about, so lets focus on "institutions" first.
> 
> see it is not the institution of Madrassah it self which should be opposed, it is the content and education practiced there which should be challenged.
> 
> If at all Madrassahs type institution have proven to be more successful than the regular schools; because they have been able to appeal to local on ground requirements better than the western type institutions.
> 
> Keeping in view the HUGE general population of Pakistan, what it seems they requires is an institution which:
> 
> a. will take care of their children from morning to evening.
> b. Provide knowledge based education whilst upholding culture.
> c. Preferably provide for food for the children as well.
> d. separate schooling for girls and boys.
> 
> please add more, so we can define an ideal "institution".



No, Madrassa education i.e. Quran teaching should be integrated in normal education system. On the contrary, we can always 'import' the idea from Ontario Ministry of Education. In Toronto, we have Toronto District School Board (TDSB) and Toronto Catholic District School Board (TCDSB)...
You know why Madrassa system has been a success in Pakistan? One, it is an easy way out for the children and Mullah baradri takes advantage of poverty. You know why do we have unemployment besides the 'system failure'; because Mullah team does not prepare their children to enter in the work force.

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## Pride

saad445566 said:


> No, Madrassa education i.e. Quran teaching should be integrated in normal education system. On the contrary, we can always 'import' the idea from Ontario Ministry of Education. In Toronto, we have Toronto District School Board (TDSB) and Toronto Catholic District School Board (TCDSB)...
> You know why Madrassa system has been a success in Pakistan? One, it is an easy way out for the children and Mullah baradri takes advantage of poverty. You know why do we have unemployment besides the 'system failure'; because Mullah team does not prepare their children to enter in the work force.



I support saad your point, All this montessory schools have somewhat Catholic preaching or style is added but side by side they include other subjects which raises proper logic and reasoning to judge their question and faith properly. This sort of education can be succesful not only on minor level but on university level. While they sound religion specific but see Aligarh Muslim University, Jamia Milia university, Osmania university, Benaras Hindu university etc (Now religion does not play any major role in these univs for students level) are doing much better in comparison to other universities. This type of schooling sometimes give assurance to parents that their son/daughter is learning about religion and their country with other subjects.


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## MastanKhan

Pride said:


> I support saad your point, All this montessory schools have somewhat Catholic preaching or style is added but side by side they include other subjects which raises proper logic and reasoning to judge their question and faith properly. This sort of education can be succesful not only on minor level but on university level. While they sound religion specific but see Aligarh Muslim University, Jamia Milia university, Osmania university, Benaras Hindu university etc (Now religion does not play any major role in these univs for students level) are doing much better in comparison to other universities. This type of schooling sometimes give assurance to parents that their son/daughter is learning about religion and their country with other subjects.



Hi,

Pride---thankyou very much for your posts---a lots of our young men think that by repeating on the same mistakes over and over----we might by chance and by error not of our doing may end up succeeding.

It is very difficult to ask us to look at things with an open mind---you ask us to change something---and we feel like like it is a world wide conspiracy aganist us. We believe that the world is against us.

These floodds and the reaction of the world community should be an eye opener for those pakistanis---the american news media have hardly been showing the pakistani floods for no more than 30 seconds on the media---on cnn---on my local news channels----and here are pakistanis believing that any thing to do with pakistan has a world wide conspiracy---.

Well take this lack of interest to the bank and feed the starving.


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## kugga

I thought of it as a constructive thread and most of the posts are constructive... but some of the guys want it to turn into a battalefield against Madrassa education... For God's sake at least let this thread be without Mullah bashing... 

These Madrassas are educating the largest percent of our population.. They need reforms no doubt in it but we need overall educational reforms not only reforms in Madrassa but also in other education systems...
The arguments , they give , why they don't teach english and some science subjects at most of the Madrassaas is that they are specialized in giving Religious education.... Religious education is there speciality not science...


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## Sinnerman108

saad445566 said:


> No, Madrassa education i.e. Quran teaching should be integrated in normal education system. On the contrary, we can always 'import' the idea from Ontario Ministry of Education. In Toronto, we have Toronto District School Board (TDSB) and Toronto Catholic District School Board (TCDSB)...
> You know why Madrassa system has been a success in Pakistan? One, it is an easy way out for the children and Mullah baradri takes advantage of poverty. You know why do we have unemployment besides the 'system failure'; because Mullah team does not prepare their children to enter in the work force.



Saad, that is correct; and that is what my point was also.
Madrassah as an institution is better than western style schools 
what is required is to improve what is taught in them.

I requested member to please advise on the stuff like following:

Schools buildings should be based on population density
Schools should offer x% of time on physical training and Y % on curriculum.
Schools should have interactive modes of learning
and so on so forth.

If every one contributes we can select common requirements and post that as an ideal school.

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## pak-marine

We have the infrastructure lots of govt/ state schools , these schools are the one which educates the masses who are poor and cannot afford private education. Unfortunatly the image they have is even horrifying , they are known as ""PEELA SCHOOL"" and have the worst reputation. 

If only our statesmen can pool in some more money in the state school system rather than funding nukes etc things could be a lot better for coming generation of Pakistanis


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## FlyingEagle

There should be a standard for Government, private and smi-private schools. which includes routine course+ Madrasa+ computer+ science. Inshort every student of same standard/class should have same level of knowledge.

Regards,
FE
Hamaisha Kush Raho

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## nightcrawler

bilal1219 said:


> Now the question is, pakistan and india have a good and *challenging education *why are our degrees not recognised world wide whereas European and north american univerities that are much simpler have a higher value? My Uncle did Bio med. enginnering from punjab university with great marks and when he came to canada he was asked to do a certificate or a degree for him to get a decednt job with a decent pay.
> 
> Thanks!



Difficult/challenging doesnt equal an effective education system!!

To me its way too* difficult* to _learn by heart _a page or two; but its quiet *easy * but effective to reproduce what is read in your own words.


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

pak-marine said:


> If only our statesmen can pool in some more money in the state school system rather than funding nukes etc things could be a lot better for coming generation of Pakistanis



Or they could stop funding loss making State owned companies that cost Pakistan Rs. 400 Billion a year. That I believe surpasses the entire defence budget.

There are far more feasible ways to save money and allocate it to education than to irrationally bash the military.


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## nightcrawler

I think much said about the shortcoming of present education system; now people we must highlight the respective remedies alone


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## bilal1219

nightcrawler said:


> Difficult/challenging doesnt equal an effective education system!!
> 
> To me its way too* difficult* to _learn by heart _a page or two; but its quiet *easy * but effective to reproduce what is read in your own words.



Thats right, but im saying is we are told to go with ratta in pakistan since we dont have any help of teachers after school or lunch time, so this is the only way out. On the other side, i Studied in toronto for 3 years now, i was always welcomed by teachers after school or lunch time for any help or discussion for students. This didnt just happen in high school but in university as well where we study along with 350-400 students. I bet if system in pakistan starts this thing, The ratta system will be a good bye for students. 

Here i go with my another personal experience: my counsin who moved from pakistan( Ratta system) came to canada in grade 9, last year asked me to solve/explain a math problem but her conditiopn was to do it just how the teacher explained it in class, and i argued with her that, in math all u need for math or science courses is that u just need to have the right answer, the meathod is not cared about.

Similiarly, Pakistan should have a similiar thing, Not just handing the notes to students and asking them to learn it by heart, disadvantage in that is u forget one thing, u end up forgetting the whole thing. 

Thanks!


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## Sinnerman108

bilal1219 said:


> Thats right, but im saying is we are told to go with ratta in pakistan since we dont have any help of teachers after school or lunch time, so this is the only way out. On the other side, i Studied in toronto for 3 years now, i was always welcomed by teachers after school or lunch time for any help or discussion for students. This didnt just happen in high school but in university as well where we study along with 350-400 students. I bet if system in pakistan starts this thing, The ratta system will be a good bye for students.
> 
> Here i go with my another personal experience: my counsin who moved from pakistan( Ratta system) came to canada in grade 9, last year asked me to solve/explain a math problem but her conditiopn was to do it just how the teacher explained it in class, and i argued with her that, in math all u need for math or science courses is that u just need to have the right answer, the meathod is not cared about.
> 
> Similiarly, Pakistan should have a similiar thing, Not just handing the notes to students and asking them to learn it by heart, disadvantage in that is u forget one thing, u end up forgetting the whole thing.
> 
> Thanks!



I have a suggestion

Make sure the exam paper is such that no one has ever seen it ever before.

simple concept, followed in O & A levels;
the problems are new and the student is made to THINK.


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## Patriot

The problem with Pakistani Education System IMHO is lack of innovation.Pakistani Education is not practical it's all academic.All Student has to do is just learn all the stuff and bam hes got full marks.He does not have understand the concepts which is very important.Also any innovation is generally frowned up by teachers and teachers are hell bent on lakeer kay faqeer kind of stuff.All our Engineers want to do is basically just learn the procedure for fixing problem from equipment vendor and then just use that method to fix it whenever problem arising without finding out why this problem is arising etc.People are lazy as heck.This is why toppers are usually people who just revise all the academic stuff and don't do much practical work.


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## bilal1219

salman108 said:


> I have a suggestion
> 
> Make sure the exam paper is such that no one has ever seen it ever before.
> 
> simple concept, followed in O & A levels;
> the problems are new and the student is made to THINK.



And yes, Thanks for pointing that out. This is also one major factor in the success of students. Exam papers are leaked before even the day of the exam and plus most of the questions are either striaght out of the book or just numbers changed here and there. 

It should be something like what out calculus teacher used to do, He used to teach us whatever was required for us to know or a test or a quiz. On the day of the test, We would see the questions that we didnt even see in the book even if we did all our Homework. When the students asked, why is it that way he replies that there is no point in giving test or exam if there is no critical thinking involved in chich students are required to work a bit hard to get to the answer.

my 2 cents

Thanks!


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## nightcrawler

ok I will write a lengthy response; People you have to tolerate it 
My response isn't an ordered or you can say stepbystep solution because I ain't properly equipped yet!!
Will try to giv some *economical & pragmatic solutions* with respect to Pakistan 

1] We need to shift studies out of political barriers i.e the acceptance of Russian engineering degrees via Pakistan Engineering Council (PEC)
2] Plugging out the bias among students following different education streams(refer to previous post)
3] Awarding talent to boost morale. I have seen much gifts, prizes given to matriculation/FSC students & nothing is done about pupils have straight A's in cambridge stream( see 2]) & they rather being awarded by UK themselves end up as foreign cargo & never to return Pakistan !!
4] Acceptance that Pakistan can't afford a Cambridge system throughout or atleast a similar system( because this system requires 2-3 books per subject!!) one must right away send its talented pupil overseas on a RETURN PLEDGE.
5] As a prerequisite to 4] atleast 3 languages must be taught to any pupil 
English
Urdu
Chinese/Russian/German/French/Swedish.....................



This will not restrict (as is majorly seen) our pupils to English speaking countries( which also are expensive!!)
*Most important* 
6] Make females pay for their education attained within Pakistan.
I have seen majority of females especially in doctor lines; fail to work as professionals because of family rules/marriage........ This I think is the biggest loss of technical personnel *within country* One can impose huge fines; cancellation of degrees.....to make her parents pay for this carelessness of fulfilling a duty towards country.
7] No private education. Male/Female are bound to attend regular classes!! Stop this '4 wall' Char Diwari concept for females( Quaid too said this ) & make them come in congregation with males to educate themselves & latter their generations.

The last two arguments will cast a severe Maulana propaganda against govt. but fear not people they hadn't done a single thing for Pakistan previously nor will they do in near future!!


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## MastanKhan

bilal1219 said:


> And yes, Thanks for pointing that out. This is also one major factor in the success of students. Exam papers are leaked before even the day of the exam and plus most of the questions are either striaght out of the book or just numbers changed here and there.
> 
> It should be something like what out calculus teacher used to do, He used to teach us whatever was required for us to know or a test or a quiz. On the day of the test, We would see the questions that we didnt even see in the book even if we did all our Homework. When the students asked, why is it that way he replies that there is no point in giving test or exam if there is no critical thinking involved in chich students are required to work a bit hard to get to the answer.
> 
> my 2 cents
> 
> Thanks!



Hi,

That was very stupid of the teacher---if you have not been taught---then they don't have the right to ask you for that.

Examination hall is not the place testing your critical thinking---Exam hall is to test what you have been taught.

You know what you are examined for----for what you have been taught---.


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## bilal1219

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That was very stupid of the teacher---if you have not been taught---then they don't have the right to ask you for that.
> 
> Examination hall is not the place testing your critical thinking---Exam hall is to test what you have been taught.
> 
> You know what you are examined for----for what you have been taught---.



No, What i meant was, we were thaught that material but it was bit easy to get answers when u did the homework but a bit tough when u do it on the exam, the reason being the homework questions and the examples done on the board were straight forward whereas exam questions was something u really had to work for

Hope u got my point.

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## SekrutYakhni

Where are the people? I think education is not important but defence is. Okay, maybe I live in a lala land--


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## Patriot

I think what bilal1219 is trying to say the teacher ask the students to learn the basic concept and he can make any type of question about that topic and if you understand the basic concept you can write pretty much any question about it within the topic.

---------- Post added at 02:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 PM ----------




saad445566 said:


> Where are the people? I think education is not important but defence is. Okay, maybe I live in a lala land--


Not even defense.More like a chat chat forum.


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## Pride

As I see, There are multiple discussions going on but very few are focused. To simplify/categorize lets saggregate educational system and provide our suggestions on the same. I start with my suggestion:-

1) Pre-School (Prep/LKG/UKG):- No suggestion for this section

2) Junior Class (0-8): I find this is the most important part of studies. This actually create or remove interest of the studies to the students . As per my suggestion, Our education system needs to remove position system and include grading system. There we seriously need to remove our famous "Ratta" system and increase the involvement of students in interactive studies whether it is Math or History.
Here I also want to include one game/sports to each and every student because we lack on this area and hence we are poor performers in Olympics. 

3) Secondary Classes (9-12): This is the area where a student actually build up or focus for future career. Most of us dont have any idea even in 12th what needs to be done? As few parent's decided for Medical then few opted for Engineering. This resulted to lack the focus for unconventional sector like Political science, Defence studies, fashion industry, Outside education.

Suggestion for this sector is, They should have atleast 2 years of Military education (As Lack of discipline here distort people). We have NCC and Scouts & Guide option but very few people opt for the same. Hence again believe in "Ratta" theory. This "Ratta" always gives marks but could not justify the one's skills and hence when competition/ application of knowledge takes place then people lack here. Career Counselling in 10-11 is strongly recommended.

4) University education (UG & PG):- This is what we need to focus more. Once we were on top of universities but we are lacking in it. In India, Recently I have seen good progress happened in this are like having specialized university like for Law and managements etc but still progress needs to be taken care of. As I mentioned in earlier post we need to have strong students/professor exchange with world renowned universities. I see now people are losing interest in basic Science subjects like Physics, Chemistry etc. If noble prize winners will be available and giving their lectures to common students then this marketing may work.

5) Research (PHD/Paper publishing) : Its current situation is worst. Government with collaboration of industries need to be focused on this and provide more facilities so "Brain Drain" could not take place. Our researchers in university, either do study to get an employment as lecturer or opt for more fascinating options like moving to foreign. The reason is very simple , They dont get paid well. In India, Now they are coming with more lucrative packages to JRF/RF (Junior Research fellowship).

Sorry.. Post is too long but this is the minimum I could write on this.


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## MastanKhan

Patriot said:


> I think what bilal1219 is trying to say the teacher ask the students to learn the basic concept and he can make any type of question about that topic and if you understand the basic concept you can write pretty much any question about it within the topic.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 PM ----------
> 
> 
> Not even defense.More like a chat chat forum.



Hi,

I understand what he is saying---what I am saying is that the classroom is a place to discuss the basics and the principals---the exam is what you learn in classroom.

Examination room is not the place for that---.


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## MastanKhan

saad445566 said:


> Where are the people? I think education is not important but defence is. Okay, maybe I live in a lala land--



Hi,

As I requested---this STICKY should have been in the air force forum.


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## Jiya seher

saad445566 said:


> Where are the people? I think education is not important but defence is. Okay, maybe I live in a lala land--



Education is much important than any thing saad ........... Dear in pakistan i think education system is categorized .........i by ma self is teaching since two years and observe alot that for rich education is different for poor its completely there is a different course


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## SekrutYakhni

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> As I requested---this STICKY should have been in the air force forum.



One can only try to persuade the higher authorities.


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## SekrutYakhni

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I understand what he is saying---what I am saying is that the classroom is a place to discuss the basics and the principals---the exam is what you learn in classroom.
> 
> Examination room is not the place for that---.



I beg to differ..

Here is what I understood from the above posts..If you learn that 2 + 2 is 4 or if you add 2 and 2, it is four etc So, in the examination room they won't ask you the same question. The basic principals would be the same but they would ask what is 3 + 3?
Am I right?

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## bilal1219

saad445566 said:


> I beg to differ..
> 
> Here is what I understood from the above posts..If you learn that 2 + 2 is 4 or if you add 2 and 2, it is four etc So, in the examination room they won't ask you the same question. The basic principals would be the same but they would ask what is 3 + 3?
> Am I right?



Yes, You guyz are Absolutely Correct; Saad and Patriot, U got my Point


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## nightcrawler

Lets talk about university education. I mean undergraduates/postgraduates. I know from personal experience in undergraduates that in final year when you are asked to develop a full-fledge engineering project you just go to any other univ of country & get a copy of your friends project!!

How this can be eliminated??

I think a central database of projects from univ all around from Pakistan be constituted that teachers of one univ be highly aware of the other one; but yet again politics play a role among teachers from various factions!!


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## SQ8

*Work in progress*


Dr Howard Schweber 
taught students in Pakistan and found them bright, resourceful and highly confused

After spending a summer teaching political theory to Pakistani undergraduate students, I can confidently make two assertions: they are just like all the other college students I have known and taught in the United States for years, and, paradoxically, they are nothing like all the other college students I have ever known. 

My first impression of Pakistani students was that they are, well, just that &#8211; college students. How utterly, disappointingly, unexotic. Grade conscious careerists, canny manipulators of the system, highly competitive&#8230;future engineers and finance majors. 

But there are some differences. That word &#8216;elite&#8217; comes into play here. In the US, no college student would describe him or herself as elite &#8211; that word is primarily reserved for use as a political insult. Americans, notoriously, valorise the idea of belonging to the middle class, sometimes to a ludicrous degree. These Pakistani students, at one of the best private universities in the country, have no such compunctions, and are quite pleased to describe themselves and their family backgrounds with the words, &#8220;we are the elites,&#8221; or other words to that effect. This tendency partly reflects an inherited colonialist culture; perhaps, it partly reflects the reality of deep economic divisions reflected in the ubiquitous servant culture that every American I spoke with privately described as jarring. Sure, American college students at top schools also tend to have a sense of entitlement, but nothing that compares with the elite classes of Pakistani society. 

Not all the students at this private school come from backgrounds of privilege, however. In my small, unscientific sample of about forty students whom I met (out of sixty-five enrolled in my two courses), I encountered ten or so who come from worlds very different from that of Lahore&#8217;s upper class. These students tended to approach me quietly and privately to describe their backgrounds; students from small villages, not only in the Punjab but also from the areas around Karachi and Peshawar; the student who confided that he had grown up on streets similar to the ones we were walking through in the area around Lahore&#8217;s Walled City; the student from FATA, the Federal Administered Tribal Agencies, who couldn&#8217;t go home. 

Looking closely at the students I met and taught reveals more mysteries. Some had serious problems with English, particularly in their writing, but most were extremely well prepared as far as language skills were concerned. It is when we look beyond language skills that puzzles begin to appear. What was most startling was the realization that these students were palpably uncomfortable with abstract concepts and what people in Education Schools call &#8216;critical thinking skills.&#8217; When I raised this point to faculty and alumni, every one without exception acknowledged the problem, and pointed to the system of secondary education as the culprit. Undoubtedly the point is correct, but I think there is a deeper observation to be made here. In addition to being uncomfortable with abstract concepts, these students and their families seem to be uncomfortable with the idea of knowledge that is not justified by an immediate practical application. That discomfort extends to a reluctance to embrace basic scientific research as well as the humanities. I heard from students who wanted to study theoretical physics whose parents insisted that they become engineers; students who wanted to become historians whose parents did not see the point. The same attitudes exist in other places to be sure, but among my Pakistani students it seemed almost universal. 

There is a classic saying about immigrants to America: &#8220;The first generation are factory workers so that the second generation can be lawyers so the third generation can be artists.&#8221; I mentioned that saying to a student, and he found it deeply puzzling. 

Part of the reason for this discomfort with abstraction may have to do with a curiously limited range of background knowledge. My students &#8211; many of whom, again, had graduated from the finest schools &#8211; knew almost literally nothing of non-Pakistani history and culture. The reason is not that Pakistan is culturally isolated &#8211; far from it. At one point I found myself confronted by a room full of students who had an exhaustive knowledge of the movies that were Oscar candidates last year, but among whom the vast majority had never heard of Beethoven&#8217;s 9th Symphony. In general, students had no idea &#8211; not even a wrong idea! &#8211; about the significance of the French Revolution or World War I, the history of nationalism and empires, the contents of the Book of Genesis, the Scientific Revolution or the Renaissance. Again, when I pressed students, faculty members and alumni, the answer was always the same: the fault lies with the secondary school curriculum, and particularly the fact that during General Zia ul Haq&#8217;s rule secondary school curricula were shifted to emphasize Pakistan Studies and Islam at the expense of everything else. Again, that can only be a very partial explanation. But it is worth noting that this lack of cultural literacy helps feed the culture of conspiracy theories for which Pakistan is justly famous. 

But what happens once these students get to college? I saw and heard about fine courses in Shakespeare and Islamic Jurisprudence, but when it comes to the social sciences it appears that the students who learn anything about these subjects at all (that is, those who choose to take courses outside of Accounting and Finance) are fed a steady diet of snippets of readings and excerpts from trendy current theories. Many students could and were eager to could talk fluently about Edward Said, Noam Chomsky, and (rather weirdly) Nazi Germany, but Locke and Rousseau, Machiavelli and Madison, Cromwell and Marx were all equally unknown territory. Undoubtedly, at this point I will be accused of Western ethnocentricism; how many American college students know the names of the first four Moghul Emperors? It&#8217;s a fair point, to be sure. But it&#8217;s a big world out there, and a dangerous place at home. Colleges don&#8217;t just train engineers, they train citizens and future leaders. Pakistan might do well to train some future leaders in the history and the philosophies that have shaped the world around them. 

The point is not that the instructors at these colleges are bad teachers, far from it; the instructors I met were qualified, dedicated teachers. The point is that establishing the historical and philosophical context out of which modern ways of thinking emerge does not seem to be part of the curriculum . Nor, for that matter, does reading whole books seem to be an expected element of the college experience. I had a student in my office who complained, with no apparent sense of irony, that I had asked a question on a take-home exam to which he was unable to find an answer on Wikipedia. (To repeat an earlier observation, Pakistani college students seem to be almost entirely unencumbered by any sense of irony. I find this incomprehensible, given the Dadaist absurdity of much of Pakistani politics.) 

Here&#8217;s another example to make my point: on the first examination that I administered, I included a question that asked students to &#8216;compare and contrast&#8217; two texts. I was not particularly proud of the question, since for a lot of my students in the US, this is considered the most banal, overused, pedantic imaginable form of exam problem, the sort of question they&#8217;ve been encountering since the fourth grade. I was therefore nonplussed when several students asked what I meant by &#8216;comparing&#8217; different texts. &#8220;We have never been asked a question like this,&#8221; said one, and a dozen others in the room expressed agreement. I have often had students request extensions on assignments, but this was the first time I encountered a request for an extension signed by five students &#8211; who, it turned out, were among the better students in the class! &#8211; a demand justified by the statement that &#8220;we have never been asked to write something like this before.&#8221; 

In response to these inquiries, I tried to explain the idea of making comparisons in terms of taxonomy &#8211; you identify the salient characteristics and use them to classify objects in terms of their differences (&#8220;zebras have stripes, horses don&#8217;t.&#8221 Now apply the same idea to, say, theories of history. &#8220;This writer views social arrangements as expressions of economic organisation, this writer understands social arrangements as the performance of ideological claims &#8230; and here&#8217;s the explanation that makes more sense in modern Pakistan.&#8221; I wasn&#8217;t necessarily expecting brilliant insights, but it was startling to realise that the question was, itself, startling. 

And there is yet another dissonant strain that clashes with the &#8216;elite&#8217; culture of graduates of Aitchison College, convent schools, and the like. This different voice appears in the form of deeply religious students, referred to on my particular campus by faculty and fellow students alike as &#8216;the mullahs.&#8217; At first I thought I understood the significance of their presence on campus, but by the time I left I had concluded that the relationship between these religiously observant students, their fellows, and the administration is the great unsolved mystery that I take away from my visit. It may be the great unsolved mystery of Pakistan. 

Over and over I was warned, by faculty members and students alike, to beware of the religious students. When I mentioned some of the texts that I was teaching, a senior colleague was first horrified, then said &#8220;well, you are probably all right because it is the summer,&#8221; (since there are fewer students around, I suppose). All of this fed into a rather well-settled narrative of universities as bastions of secular knowledge (and a fair amount of partying in the men&#8217;s dorm, I hear), besieged by the forces of religious extremism. 

But then I got to know a few students who are, themselves, religiously observant. They tell a different story. Their claim is that the so-called &#8216;mullahs&#8217; are two groups of students. One group, led by an instructor, belong to the Naqshbandis, a Sufi order, the other to the Tableeghi Jamaat, an organization dedicated to preaching Islam. Neither group, according to these students, has any interest in confrontation. The same students also insist that there have never been any incidents of religious students harassing secular students or faculty or disrupting classes, and that the college Disciplinary Committee would make short work of any student who tried to do so. By contrast, the same students also complain of a pervasive anti-religious bias. In an e-mail, a student wrote: &#8220;I remember that in one particular class a student with a beard came late to class, which is a normal practice, and the instructor said to him sarcastically, &#8216;Oh go back and offer prayers, because these things (classes) are not important...&#8217;&#8221; 

So there are two narratives at work here. Which one is right; is one more right than the other; are both simultaneously operative? Which narrative captures more of the experience at the University of Punjab, which captures more of what goes on at the Lahore University of Management Sciences/ LUMS? I have no idea &#8211; I only know that no one disrupted my classes or threatened me, but that many people seemed to feel compelled to call my attention to the possibility of such events. 

The more I think about it, this last mystery about Pakistan&#8217;s universities is a mystery about Pakistan. I have no clear idea about the relationships among different approaches to Islam and secularism among Pakistan&#8217;s elites. Traditionally, Pakistanis have been &#8216;the kind of Muslims who go to shrines,&#8217; but the nation has a death penalty for blasphemy, and just a few months ago &#8216;Death to Qadianis&#8217; banners used to festoon the boulevards of Lahore. (Qadianis are registered as a non-Muslim minority in Pakistan.) And one Pakistani student, in front of other students, in one of my classes, told me, &#8220;as a good Muslim I would never say salaam back if an Ahmedi/Qadiani said salaam to me.&#8221; The other students said nothing; no one challenged him, or disagreed &#8211; this in a class devoted to examining theories of democracy and multiculturalism. 

As I walked around the campus, I observed students lounging on the stairs, men and women together, but then a sociologist told me that among the very people I was observing, more than 85&#37; will enter arranged marriages, and that more than 90% of those marriages do not permit the wife to file for divorce. 

So maybe these aren&#8217;t &#8216;just college students&#8217; after all. But what are they, this next generation of Pakistan&#8217;s elite? Individually I can tell you that they are bright, thoughtful, witty, principled, socially and intellectually attractive young adults with widely varying worldviews, limited by a lack of education and culturally imposed limitations. But as a group I find them a mystery.

Professor Schweber teaches political theory and constitutional law at the University of Wisconsin-Madison in the United States. He is the author of books on the First Amendment, American legal history, and constitutional philosophy. Previously, he practiced law for several years in San Francisco. This past summer was his first trip to Pakistan

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## s90

Can u post the link? ^


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## SQ8

s90 said:


> Can u post the link? ^



Got it in a mail... no idea where it came from.


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## Frankenstein

What Are Pakistani College Students All About?
By SouthAsian

By Howard Schweber

After spending a summer teaching political theory to Pakistani college students, I can confidently make two assertions: they are just like all the other college students I have known, and they are not at all like the other college students I have known. Beyond that, I found puzzles and mysteries.

My first impression of Pakistani students was that they are  well, just college students. How utterly, disappointingly unexotic. Grade-conscious careerists, canny manipulators of the system, highly competitive  future engineers and finance majors.

But there are some differences, after all. That word elite comes into play, here. In the U.S., no college student would describe him or herself as elite  that word is primarily reserved for use as a political insult. Americans, notoriously, valorize the idea of belonging to the middle class, sometimes to a ludicrous degree. Pakistani students have no such compunctions, and are quite pleased to describe themselves and their family backgrounds by saying we are the elites and other words to that effect. Partly this tendency reflects an inherited colonialist culture, partly it reflects the reality of a deep economic divisions reflected in the ubiquitous servant culture that every American I spoke with privately described as jarring. American college students at top schools tend to have a sense of entitlement  but nothing that compares with the elite classes of Pakistani society.

Not all LUMS students come from backgrounds of privilege, however. In my small, unscientific sample of about 40 students whom I met (out of 65 enrolled in my two courses), I encountered 10 or so who come from worlds very different from that of Lahores upper class. These students tended to approach me quietly and privately to describe their backgrounds; students from small villages, not only in the Punjab but also from the areas around Karachi and Peshawar, the student who confided that he had grown up on streets similar to the ones we were walking through in the area around Lahores Walled City, the student (pointed out to me) who comes from FATA and cannot go home.

And there is yet another dissonant strain that clashes with the elite culture of graduates of Aitchison School, convent schools, and the like. This different voice appears in the form of deeply religious students, referred to on my particular campus by faculty and fellow students alike as the mullahs. At first I thought I understood the significance of their presence on campus, but by the time I left I had concluded that the relationship between these religiously observant students, their fellows, and the administration is the great unsolved mystery that I take away from my visit. It may be the great unsolved mystery of Pakistan, in fact, but Ill come back to that.

Looking more closely at the students I met and taught reveals more mysteries. Some had serious problems with English, particularly in their writing, but most were extremely well prepared as far as language skills are concerned. It is when we look beyond language skills that puzzles begin to appear.

Heres an example: on the first examination that I administered I included a question that asked students to compare and contrast two texts. I was not particularly proud of the question, since for American students this is considered the most banal, overused, pedantic imaginable form of exam problem, the sort of question they have been encountering since the fourth grade. I was therefore nonplussed when several students asked what I meant by comparing different texts. We have never been asked a question like this, said one, and a dozen others in the room expressed their agreement. I have often had students request extensions on assignments, but LUMS was the first place in which I encountered a request for an extension signed by five students  who, it turned out, were among the better students in the class!  justified by the statement that we have never been asked to write something like this before.

In response to these inquiries, I tried to explain the idea of making comparisons in terms of taxonomy  you identify the salient characteristics and use them to classify objects in terms of their differences (zebras have stripes, horses dont.) Now apply the same idea to, say, theories of history. This writer views social arrangements as expressions of economic organization, this writer understands social arrangements as the performance of ideological claims  and heres the explanation that makes more sense in modern Pakistan. I wasnt necessarily expecting brilliant insights, but it was startling to realize that the question was, itself, startling.

That was only the beginning of a slowly dawning realization that LUMS students are palpably uncomfortable with abstract concepts and what people in Education Schools call critical thinking skills. When I raised this point to faculty and alumni, every one without exception acknowledged the problem, and pointed to the system of secondary education as the culprit. Undoubtedly the point is correct, but I think there is a deeper observation to be made here. In addition to being uncomfortable with abstract concepts, these students and their families seem to be uncomfortable with the idea of knowledge that is not justified by an immediate practical application. That discomfort extends to a reluctance to embrace basic scientific research as well as the humanities. I heard from students who wanted to study physics but whose parents insisted that they become engineers, students who wanted to become historians but whose parents did not see the point to being an historian. The same attitudes exist in other places, to be sure, but among LUMS students it seemed to be universal. There is a classic saying about immigrants to America: the first generation are factory workers so the second generation can be lawyers so the third generation can be artists. I mentioned that saying to a student and he found it deeply puzzling.

Part of the reason for the discomfort with abstraction may have to do with a curiously limited range of background knowledge. My students  many of whom, again, had graduated from the finest schools  knew almost literally nothing of non-Pakistani history and culture. The reason is not that Pakistan is culturally isolated  far from it. At one point I found myself confronted by a room full of students who had an exhaustive knowledge of the movies that were Oscar candidates last year but among whom the vast majority had never heard of Beethovens 9th Symphony. In general, students had no idea  not even a wrong idea!  about the significance of the French Revolution or World War I, the history of nationalism and empires, the contents of the Book of Genesis, the Scientific Revolution or the Renaissance. Again, when I pressed students, faculty members, and alumni, the answer was always the same: the fault lies with the secondary school curriculum, and particularly the fact that during Zias rule secondary school curricula were shifted to emphasize Pakistan studies and Islam at the expense of everything else. Again, that can only be a very partial explanation. But it is worth noting that this lack of cultural literacy helps feed the culture of conspiracy theories for which Pakistan is justly famous.

But what happens once these students get to college? I saw and heard about fine courses in Shakespeare and Islamic Jurisprudence, but when it comes to the social sciences it appears that the students who learn anything about these subjects at all (that is, those who choose to take courses outside of Accounting and Finance) are fed a steady diet of snippets of readings and excerpts from trendy current theories. Many students could and were eager to could talk fluently about Edward Said, Noam Chomsky, and (rather weirdly) Nazi Germany, but Locke and Rousseau, Machiavelli and Madison, Cromwell and Marx were all equally unknown territory. Undoubtedly, at this point I will be accused of Western ethnocentrism; how many American college students know the names of the first four Moghul Emperors? Its a fair point, to be sure. But its a big world out there, and a dangerous place at home. Colleges dont just train engineers, they train citizens and future leaders. Pakistan might do well to train some future leaders in the history and the philosophies that have shaped the world around them.

The point is not that the instructors at these colleges are bad teachers, far from it; the instructors I met were qualified, dedicated teachers. The point is that establishing the historical and philosophical context out of which modern ways of thinking emerge does not seem to be part of the curriculum. Nor, for that matter, does reading whole books seem to be an expected element of the college experience. I had a student in my office who complained, with no apparent sense of irony, that I had asked a question on a take-home exam to which he was unable to find an answer on Wikipedia. (To repeat an earlier observation, Pakistani college students seem to be almost entirely unencumbered by any sense of irony. I find this incomprehensible, given the Dadaist absurdity of much of Pakistani politics.)

Which brings me back to the mullahs. Over and over I was warned, by faculty members and students alike, to beware of these students. When I mentioned some of the texts that I was teaching, a senior colleague was first horrified, then said well, you are probably all right because it is the summer. All of this fed into a rather well settled narrative of universities as bastions of secular knowledge (and a fair amount of partying in the mens dorm, I hear), besieged by the forces of religious extremism.

But then I got to know a few students who are, themselves, religiously observant. They tell a different story. Their claim is that the so-called mullahs are two groups of students. One group, led by an instructor, follow a Sufi order called Naqshbandi, while the other is associated with Tableeghi Jamaat. Neither group, according to these students, has any interest in confrontation. The same students insist that there have never been any incidents of religious students harassing secular students or faculty or disrupting classes, and that the college Disciplinary Committee would make short work of any student who tried to do so. By contrast, the same students complain of a pervasive anti-religious bias. In an e-mail, a student wrote: I remember that in one particular class a student with beard came late to class, which is a normal practice, and instructor said to him sarcastically, Oh go back and offer prayer etc. because these things (courses) are not important

So there are two narratives at work here. Which one is right, is one more right than the other, are both simultaneously operative? Which narrative captures more of the experience at the University of Punjab, which captures more of what goes on at LUMS? I have no idea  I only know that no one disrupted my classes or threatened me, but that many people seemed to feel compelled to call my attention to the possibility of such events.

The more I think about it, this last mystery about Pakistans universities is a mystery about Pakistan. I have no clear idea about the relationships among different approaches to Islam and secularism among Pakistans elites. Traditionally, Pakistanis have been the kind of Muslims who go to shrines, but the nation has a death penalty for blasphemy and just a few months ago Death to Qadianis banners used to festoon the boulevards of Lahore. And one Pakistani student, in front of other students, told me as a good Muslim I would never say asalaam back if an Ahmedi said asalaam to me. The other students said nothing, in a class devoted to examining theories of democracy and multiculturalism. As I walked around the campus, I observed the students lounging on the stairs, men and women together, but then a sociologist tells me that among the very people I am observing more than 85% will enter arranged marriages and that more than 90% of those marriages do not permit the wife to file for divorce.

So maybe these arent just college students after all. But what are they, this next generation of the nations elite? Individually I can tell you that they are bright, thoughtful, witty, principled, socially and intellectually attractive young adults with widely varying worldviews, limited only by a lack of education and culturally imposed limitations, especially the women. But as a group? If you ask me what are Pakistani college students all about? I can only answer that I find it a mystery.

_This article appeared first in The Friday Times, Lahore, and is being reproduced here with permission of the author. Howard Schweber is an Associate Professor at the University of Wisconsin at Madison where he teaches political theory and constitutional law. He taught this summer at the Lahore University of Management Sciences (LUMS)._

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## Luftwaffe

My post might not be related to the thread subject but I think all Pakistani Colleges must start technical programs right after 2 Years College eduction for a 12-18 month intensive training and learning and live projects be it compulsory.


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## Frankenstein

at some point I dont agree with the writer, here is the comment of a lady perhaps Indian, to whom I agree with

"I was amused, and remembered my own experinces of teaching in an American univerisyt, while on a Fulbright assignment.Why, many leading Americans spell Gandhi as &#8220;Ghandi&#8221; and ask me about &#8220;Hindu&#8221; language. There isnt one. The average American student (even at the graduate or post doc level) doesn&#8217;t realise that Asian nations are marked by far greater diversities than in the West, and that there is no &#8220;average&#8221; or &#8220;typical Indian woman&#8221; or man for that matter (I was forever being asked, by campus audinces, whether I would describe myself as a &#8216;typical Indian woman&#8221; &#8212; there are a few millions like me, there are millions of others with whom I have nothing in common whatsoever (except our gender) So students at one institution hadn&#8217;t heard of Chomsky ? I wonder how many in the West have heard of Shankara, or Manusmriti , or leading Muslim freedom fighters who were Gandhians (or can name India&#8217;s first woman President)&#8230;"


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## somebozo

That is not only the dilemia of Pakistani colleges but the whole education system is confused..and incompetent..and lately drugs and smokes have started to make their way into college culture which was once known for be conservative and respectful. At Bahria university in Karachi i was shocked to see girls in near transparent clothing sporting cigarettes while exiting from the college car park..doomed we are indeed.


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## Luftwaffe

Right that is Pakistani education system is crapped by incompetent people most of them grandpas such as Federal board all controlled by grandpas.


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## Frankenstein

somebozo said:


> That is not only the dilemia of Pakistani colleges but the whole education system is confused..and incompetent..and lately drugs and smokes have started to make their way into college culture which was once known for be conservative and respectful. At Bahria university in Karachi i was shocked to see girls in near transparent clothing sporting cigarettes while exiting from the college car park..doomed we are indeed.



I totally agree with you on that, but It totally a different thing, these things happens outside college, isnt it?


Half of my class mates are smokers, but it doesn't means they are failures, most have them have straight As in A levels


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## RobbieS

Interesting read. While inevitably comparing it to the scenario in Indian elite colleges, I think the religious angle is more or less non-present. However the definite stress on management, finance and engineering degrees at the cost of humanities and arts is the same in India as well.


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## ironman

very interesting read..thanks


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## somebozo

Luftwaffe said:


> Right that is Pakistani education system is crapped by incompetent people most of them grandpas such as Federal board all controlled by grandpas.



But the semi transparent clothing is worn inside the college...and is a very indecent eye sore..as well trouble for many professors i guess!


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## SQ8

Already posted in the thread it should be in
http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/69375-education-system-4.html#post1204785


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## Frankenstein

santro said:


> Already posted in the thread it should be in
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/69375-education-system-4.html#post1204785



opps sorry

s90 was asking for a link, here

http://thesouthasianidea.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/what-are-pakistani-college-students-all-about/


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## Frankenstein

*A guy said that we shud know about the French Revolution as it is part of the reason for Pakistan being a nation state and India being a secular nation state and for India and Pakistan to exist as nation states.*

How can it be possible I mean French resolution took place between 1789&#8211;1799, there was no Pakistan by then??


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## Frankenstein

another article

*Remaking Public School Education in Pakistan*
By SouthAsian

By Anjum Altaf and Samia Altaf

This op-ed appeared in Dawn, Karachi, on October 18, 2010. It is being reproduced here with permission of the authors in order to provide a forum for feedback, comments, and discussion. Parallels with other countries in South Asia would be particularly welcome.

Pakistans public education system is sick and getting sicker. But what exactly is the malady? We employ this medical perspective to highlight the issues and to propose for consideration a radical yet feasible path to recovery.

The health care perspective comprises three essential steps: a description of the problem; a diagnosis of the cause; and a prescription of the remedy. In the case of public education in Pakistan there has been no diagnosis, only descriptions and prescriptions. No wonder the health of the system has continued to deteriorate despite the numerous policy prescriptions over the years.

The problem is that by now the disease is so advanced that there is no time to be spared for diagnosis. Without an emergency procedure and some kind of transplant, the patient would expire, i.e., the system would implode.

Consider the following. In the 5-to-19 years age group there are 70 million children, more than half of whom (42 million) are out of school. Over a half million children are added to this stock every year. Elementary arithmetic suggests that NGO-run schools cannot offer a solution. They cannot absorb even a fraction of the new yearly addition to the out-of-school population let alone address the stock of out-of-school children. Thus the scale of the problem is increasing rapidly, not decreasing.

Second, the children who do go to school, at least since the time of Zia ul Haq, are being indoctrinated rather than educated, one reason that intolerance in Pakistani society has grown so rapidly. Even highly trained professionals have suffered because acquiring skills and being educated are distinct phenomena.

Third, education has become an extremely politicized and fiercely contested domain in which all elements (employment, teaching, textbooks, examinations) now involve issues of ideological influence, political patronage, criminal involvement, and economic rent.

Finally, the problem has acquired a scale such that an across-the-board prescription to fix all public schools is rendered virtually infeasible. Neither financial nor human capital resources will prove sufficient and would be spread so thin as to be ineffective. Furthermore, there is little chance that unqualified teachers could be laid off or new ones familiar with modern content and pedagogy trained in sufficient numbers to make a difference in the short term.

Given the above, the traditional remedy of attempting to nurture a sick system back to health will fail. A transplant is needed that would allow starting over with the core of a fresh and healthy program. This core should have the ability to grow rapidly attracting healthy cells away from the diseased body of the old system thereby itself becoming the de facto system over time.

We propose establishing around 1000 magnet schools, between five and ten per district, in the first phase. These schools would enroll especially gifted and talented children, selected on the basis of tests that discount the advantages of social and economic status, in order to fast track nurturing the most promising human capital in the country. The schools, an investment in the future of the country, would be fully subsidized for all to eliminate the negative psychology of distinctions between children and to initiate a process of social integration. While it is important to provide the poor a channel for upward mobility, anything that is exclusively for the poor is stigmatized as second-rate in Pakistani society. The schools should be of such quality that all families would want to enroll their children in them.

Each magnet school would serve as the hub in its area for the provision of distance education to a number of public schools that might wish to affiliate with it voluntarily. This initiative would leverage both old and new technologies to improve education in the satellite schools. Leading firms would be invited to pilot new approaches with attractive licensing incentives and awards for particularly relevant innovations. Expatriate Pakistani entrepreneurs should find this opportunity of special interest.

A new examination board built around revised content and pedagogy would certify students graduating from the magnet schools with non-magnet schools having the option to affiliate voluntarily with the new board. Certification by this board would carry privileges that would generate pressure from below for other schools to switch to it thereby initiating a non-coercive and non-confrontational path to curricular and teaching reforms.

Competitive contracts would be employed for awarding the rights to set up the magnet schools grouping districts to ensure an optimal number of contracts. NGOs active in education and private school chains would be logical contenders bidding on subsidy required per student. Competition amongst winning bidders and prospects of further opportunities in subsequent phases would generate positive incentives for efficiency and good performance while comparative performance would also provide valuable data for benchmarking and monitoring the program.

A natural corollary would be upgrading a selected number of teacher training institutions to build capacity for staffing the magnet schools. In-service teachers would be eligible to sit for the certification examinations in order to create an incentive for voluntary improvement of skills to become part of a merit-based elite cadre of teachers.

A number of independent auditors would be associated with the program to monitor the initiative and provide public disclosure of progress at the magnet and satellite schools. These auditors would have access to information about school budgets, project timelines and interim milestones.

At this stage we are refraining from prescribing details of how exactly such an initiative might be implemented. We are interested in suggesting a radical but feasible new dynamic in public education to trigger an intensive debate amongst Pakistanis and friends of Pakistan outside the country. We believe that the essential features of this initiative and its transformative potential are such that it should appeal both to Pakistanis and to donors who are keen to invest in the future of the country. Collective deliberation should help to shape it into a package that would ensure ownership by all those interested in the future of public education in Pakistan.


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## Avatar

The article makes sense to me. I knew a very bright Pashtun (possibly in Karachi) who was regularly beat up by classmates and hated by (school) teachers because he was not religious, and he was born with a condition where one cannot understand emotions. He told me his parents forced him to attend madarassa, and during a fasting event shopkeepers refused to sell him food and asked him whether he is a Muslim.


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## JonAsad

somebozo said:


> But the semi transparent clothing is worn inside the college...and is a very indecent eye sore..as well trouble for many professors i guess!



but a recipe for good grades


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## JonAsad

Avatar said:


> The article makes sense to me. I knew a very bright Pashtun (possibly in Karachi) who was regularly beat up by classmates and hated by (school) teachers because he was not religious, and he was born with a condition where one cannot understand emotions. He told me his parents forced him to attend madarassa, and during a fasting event shopkeepers refused to sell him food and asked him whether he is a Muslim.



yeah you can say anything.. 

i knew an indian muslim guy who told me i could not drink water from a hotel in india because i am a muslim.
He also told me there are seperate places for hindus and muslims to drink water from.


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## Avatar

JonAsad said:


> yeah you can say anything..
> 
> i knew an indian muslim guy who told me i could not drink water from a hotel in india because i am a muslim.
> He also told me there are seperate places for hindus and muslims to drink water from.



Do you really believe I am making this up ?


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## nightcrawler

I am feeling very excited while writing this article. This article or more a question to me must be pondered upon...
With the emergence of J-20 & the previous Chinese accomplishments like JF-17 & J-10; three years in a row they have made something that strategically can be deemed as *Game-Changers* for Pakistan particularly & world in general.
These three mind-blowing products has atleast taken the world by surprise as Gen. Mullan(~USA) himself asserted & also personally made me think that Chinese are doing extremely good in the engineering as well as other science related fields. The industrial & research set-up needed to produce stealth plane like J-20 & turbo-fan engine like WS-10 is indeed a trivial task yet so efficiently* undertaken * & being *completed* in such a relatively less time by the Chinese engineers & scientists.
This shows their skills & the quality of technical aspects. The education system in China must be addressed by Pakistan with full vigour as it had proved thrice in three years what it is capable of achieving. I really am impressed when I see the Chief designers of the three planes are educated in Chinese domestic universities which sure prove my point of Chinese education excellency & the like of which we *must* pursue.


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## ANG

Hi, not to derail this thread. But, to highlight a point made earlier, Pakistanis are no better. A lot of Pakistanis keep seperate plates for their Christian servants. Intolerance, and pure racism is not just an issue in India, it is just as, if not more prevalent in Pakistan. Take care.


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## mustif

this type of thing is universal, both in the west and the east!


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## nightcrawler

Benefits of Western education. | Talk Shows | RIA Novosti
Why did Russian need a westernised education system??
I am quiet astonished why the country with a lot of Scientific Sound development too is going for a Westernised education system. I mean I personally have the honor to read translated works of Russian engineering & starting from the Calculus upto my Chemical engineering all works if not superior were equal to that of Western publications.
This astonished me a lot that country who had done such remarkable progress in much every aspect of science are motivating students to go abroad for education. From my side this makes no sense??
Russian members respond plz


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## Last Hope

Actually, have a look at this link, and see the pattern. 
Bitter fact about Government of Pakistan. | Facebook

I have researched this, and have posted it on my facebook campaign.
If we have a close look, its the political infrastructure, that doesnt support a educated public.

Awaiting your feedback.
Regards,_
Creator MCA_


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## The Chemical engineer

same old discussion with no end


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## AHMED85

The main weakness of uni level is the teacher do not give any attention to explain the fact rather than given more focus on what he or she prepared for lecture....And the methodology put more burden.


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## Trisonics

Must Watch!!! What a mess!! Very very sad!

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## Tiki Tam Tam

AH Nayyar and Ahmad Salim have done work on the Pakistani education system.

Their report indicates the issues of the education system.

http://www.sdpi.org/whats_new/reporton/State of Curr&TextBooks.pdf


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## Ultra

Nobody's talking about devolution of HEC??


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## desioptimist

Trisonics said:


> Must Watch!!! What a mess!! Very very sad!


 
The positive thing about the above video is they have proper desk and bench to sit on. I remember we used to sit on floor till class 5. (I studied in govt school)
There was only 1 class teacher who used to teach everything.


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## dj.vickx

I totally agree with Santro, He is right.


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## monitor

Pakistan&#8217;s education fiasco
Posted on April 29, 2011 by
By Dr Muzaffar Iqbal

Pakistan&#8217;s education fiasco has landmarks and watersheds: (i) The overnight nationalisation of private schools in 1972; (ii) the short-lived and ill-conceived experiment of redesigning the entire primary education system initiated by Air Marshall Nur Khan, who gained and lost the confidence of Z A Bhutto with supersonic speed; (iii) the emergence of a new kind of private schools during the Zia era which undermined all cultural and social values the education system had been promoting until then; (iv) the stagnating years from 1990 to 1999, during which education became commercial business; and (v) the emergence of the Commando-CEO and his handpicked people who imposed their vision of education on the country during 2000-2008.

The Commando-CEO&#8217;s years from 1999 to 2008 witnessed the largest state investment in higher education since 1947. This was done mainly through the establishment of the Higher Education Commission in October 2002, by an act signed by the military dictator who had established his writ over the country through a midnight coup. Hardly a laudable start for a commission on higher education, one would say. But the most important aspect of this fiasco was the large shadow of Sept 11, 2001, and the immediate surrender of Pakistan&#8217;s sovereignty by the Commando-CEO. This shadow loomed large over everything he did; the HEC was no exception.

Right from the beginning, there was a slavish mentality which accepted the superiority of everything that came from foreign sources. In many respects, it was a project funded by foreign money with a great deal of pomp and ceremony. There was hardly anything indigenous in the entire setup; even the task force which recommended the establishment of the HEC was largely funded by foreign sources, and what it recommended was based on a foreign model. The recommendation of the task force said: &#8220;A central body is needed for facilitating quality assurance of higher education in both the public and private sectors, and linking funding by the federal government for public universities to the quality of performance (akin to the principle used by the Higher Education Funding Councils in the UK).&#8221; (Emphasis added.)

Notice the uncritical, wholesale import of a model that had little relevance to Pakistan. What set the HEC apart from its predecessor, the University Grants Commission (UGC), was this foreignness, this hypertext, imported from the colonial masters whose own aims had been to set up an education system that would produce lower-level cadres of their administrative system. The UGC, disorganised, almost dysfunctional as it was, was at least an outgrowth of the local educational structures and environment; the HEC was a super body, which functioned at the will of a few handpicked confidants of the Commando, who rolled bullions of rupees of foreign money into this ill-suited venture. The result: a lot of pomp, self-projection, ad hoc decisions, zero-sum sham schemes which overnight created universities on paper, and some infra-structure development, which could have been achieved at the fraction of the cost. More importantly, it did what the foreign donors wanted: it siphoned off the cream of this country into their hands as slave labour.

This is an aspect of the HEC which is seldom talked about; in fact, the HEC takes a lot of credit for sending thousands of young Pakistani students to foreign universities on scholarships, and whenever numbers are recited, everyone claps: Bravo. Well done. No one was, or is, interested in asking the next question: what for? What would these young men and women do when, and if, they return home after this state-sponsored extravaganza, to a country where 60 million children cannot read and write and where electricity outage makes it impossible to have a midsize laboratory!

No one was, and no one is, interested in looking at the stark realities of this land, think through the fog of pomp and a maze of statistical uncertainties to fully comprehend the dimension of Pakistan&#8217;s educational fiasco. All that the HEC did during the General&#8217;s ad hoc rule over this land was act at a feverish speed to produce a systematic fiasco which has now blossomed.

This failure was evident in the way the HEC operated under the direct command of one person who had the General&#8217;s ear in his grasp through sweet talk and hyperbole. It is true that the HEC did achieve a certain degree of success in putting together the basic infrastructure of the computer age in various universities. But given the amount of money it had at its disposal, even a medium-size private IT company could have done that at a fraction of the cost. It does not require a genius to buy and set up video-conferencing equipment and digital libraries, which are now increasingly available on the internet at no cost.

Those who created this last fiasco are no more running the HEC, but these &#8220;achievements,&#8221; written in golden letters in HEC records, are still being highlighted on the HEC website. But the irony is that this sycophantic self-glamorisation uses a Prof Wolfgang Voelter or a Prof Fred M Hayward or a Prof Michael Rode to tell this half-illiterate nation that the years 2002-2008 were &#8220;Pakistan&#8217;s golden period in higher education&#8221;! With such heavyweights, who figure nowhere in the educational scene of their homelands, no one is going to ask: why are these people telling us that we have suddenly achieved the impossible? How can they make these tall claims when they do not even know that 60 million children of this nation could have been taken off the streets with half the money spent on the HEC during these years? They have no clue of Pakistan&#8217;s inherent social, economic, and educational dilemmas, nor do they understand or care about our urgent needs in this crucial area of national life. But, then, neither do those who have robbed this country of years of development opportunities and who joined hands with a military dictator of Pharaonic character, who knew it all, who could do anything, who was wisdom incarnated.

The writer is a freelance columnist.

Email: quantumnotes@gmail.com
-The News


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## jonesalden

I want to apply for degree and I have no diploma. I am not so good in study so I want to buy fake degree from any well known university. Please suggest me any university that offer fake diplomas.

diploma fake


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## Frankenstein

ANG said:


> Hi, not to derail this thread. But, to highlight a point made earlier, Pakistanis are no better. A lot of Pakistanis keep seperate plates for their Christian servants. Intolerance, and pure racism is not just an issue in India, it is just as, if not more prevalent in Pakistan. Take care.


 
don't drag religion into this


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## outstream

Last Hope said:


> If we have a close look, its the political infrastructure, that doesnt support a educated public.


 
I agree........


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## nightcrawler

Halal pencils, and other things my Islamic Studies course forgot to warn me about &#8211; The Express Tribune Blog

I think another Nadeem Paracha is ripening...


> If I get a D grade in Islamiat does that mean Im going to hell? asked one student forlornly.
> 
> Without skipping a beat someone replied: Dont worry, it means foreign unis wont think youre a terrorist.


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## nightcrawler

Another concerning Music as education...
Music = vulgarity? &#8211; The Express Tribune Blog


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## OmegaManX

Is nobody going to mention Pakistan's literacy rate? 
157/179 is Pakistan's rank when it comes to literacy rate....
That is one of the lowest literacy rates for a non-African country.

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## Muhammad Abid Ayub

one thing which needed to be improve that the in our education system our children not ready to take decision they all are mostly dependent on others for this.
education system not allow them to give their views and when our system allow when they became habitual of not giving their feedback.


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## The SC

nightcrawler said:


> The biggest problem plaguing our system is the differentiation b/w Knowledge & Information; even teachers at univ levels ignore this primary fact




Very true, there is a huge difference between education and instruction; instruction is what we get in schools, be it public or private, while education is the continuity of instruction outside the education system.This is called individual Ijtihad (endeavour) in Islam.


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## nitetrogen70

hope one day the education is free till 12th grade just like canada


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## truthseer

The main this is that the system is corrupt and it entice students to be corrupt. It's hard for a student like me, who works hard all year to get trumped by a person who paid 20000 Rs per subject to get 85%. This is the ground reality. 
Also, the course is static, the books have not changed in the past 50 years. That must also be changed.
I have given my O'levels and then went to Inter. As far as maths is concerned, the local system is a million, no, a billion times better. However, I dislike the exam pattern with focus on rote memorisation


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## Saifullah Sani

Saeed Anwar, a student of grade 7 from Danish School Hasilpur, Bahawalpur obtained 86.7% marks and stood first in all Danish Schools. Saeed became emotional while delivering a speech in English at the Matriculation toppers ceremony and stated that he had lost both his parents and would have been roaming the dusty streets of his village had he not been admitted at Danish School. He stated that the teachers at Danish School are his parents now and thanked the CM for establishing the Danish School System.

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## AUz

Saifullah Sani said:


> Saeed Anwar, a student of grade 7 from Danish School Hasilpur, Bahawalpur obtained 86.7% marks and stood first in all Danish Schools. Saeed became emotional while delivering a speech in English at the Matriculation toppers ceremony and stated that he had lost both his parents and would have been roaming the dusty streets of his village had he not been admitted at Danish School. He stated that the teachers at Danish School are his parents now and thanked the CM for establishing the Danish School System.



You got it from Shahbaz Shareef's Facebook page... 

I was just reading this....

To phir , are you voting for PTI na

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## Zarvan

saad445566 said:


> Originally posted by Araz.
> 
> "I am not sure whether a radical change in the system of education is required.* Text and content wise we are better than the western systems that we so envy. *However independant thinking needs to be inculcated and for that the teachers need to be trained.Every where in the world there are days set aside for teaching the trainers. Ever see that in Pakistan.
> Look I dont want to digress from the topic at hand. Please feel free to open a new thread and discuss the education needs separately. We can then shift the mails from this thread and continue there."
> Araz
> 
> 
> 
> I am a bit confused here. Which 'text and content' are you talking about? There are three parallel systems running in the glorious country. i.e. Imported one, local and Madrassa type. Now the first one, imported, you cannot say that it is better than the west because it is already imported from there. Local (Matriculation system) is not better than the west; therefore, individuals prefer to do O and A levels. Madrassa system is not even at par with the local education system let alone the western system. You know why I emphasized more on changing the education system at grass root level? Majority of our people cannot go to schools like LGS etc so they end up going to government schools. Should I tell you the condition of government schools? So, we have to think for the majority. Introduce new and effective system in government schools. Take the example of India, only one uniformed system. We should uplift our existing system so we don't have to import our education system. Wasn't it a failure when we introduced a western system? For me it was because it shows that we failed to develop a local system. Open community schools--Social justice! It is the right of poor people to get same level of education as rich do! Yaar, jis mulk mien 9 and 10 ka aik year alag exams aur next year aik sath exams hoon, what do you expect from that education system? A bit too much experiments, eh!
> 
> So, if we are able to give a good education to our kids at junior level, they will automatically thrive in universities. If universities will get a 'lot' of thinkers rather than ratu baz, universities will further flourish the abilities of young brats.
> 
> Defence budget has increased significantly, whereas, the education budget is at all time low--


Pakistan need to change its education system a lot first update the syllabus and also make the course in such a way and also train teachers for that that students don't have to take tuition they can do homework on their own and also play for sometime and teach Arabic from calss 4 but in class 4 teach the Arabic of standard 1 and not directly of 4 because when student reaches 10th grade even if he studied Arabic upto 6th Standard than he could read and write Arabic and also teach Quran up to 8 only how to study it and in 9th and 10th grade teach them with Translation and also give them books of seerat so they can understand and study life of HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW and in FA or FSC add Tafseer and Hadees along with subjects of world and that to completely updated make good and big buildings of Schools and Colleges with good furniture and teachers which are highly qualified and also trained


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## Zarvan

Saifullah Sani said:


> Saeed Anwar, a student of grade 7 from Danish School Hasilpur, Bahawalpur obtained 86.7% marks and stood first in all Danish Schools. Saeed became emotional while delivering a speech in English at the Matriculation toppers ceremony and stated that he had lost both his parents and would have been roaming the dusty streets of his village had he not been admitted at Danish School. He stated that the teachers at Danish School are his parents now and thanked the CM for establishing the Danish School System.


The Kind of buildings he has made and their quality and took funds from primary schools and gave away Laptops and why waste money on news why not make already existing schools better they have huge areas can be easily re build or improved by good furniture labs and other stuff can't you see the commission involved in this man open your eyes


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## Saifullah Sani




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## A.Rafay

*Turkey to help in edu sector*

KarachiTurkish Ambassador Inaich has said Turkey is always ready to help out Pakistan, specially Sindh, in the field of education. He was speaking at a lunch reception hosted in honour of Fethullah Gulen, a Turkish Muslim scholar, at a local hotel here, said a handout issued here on Friday. The Turkish envoy further said both the countries have mutual co-operation in many fields and it is hoped that this cooperation would further increase.

Speaking on the occasion, Senior Minister for Education and Literacy Pir Mazhar-ul-Haq said Pakistan and Turkey both are brotherly countries and have cordial relations since long. The Senior Minister said Turkey has given considerable assistance to Pakistan on many occasions. Pir Mazhar-ul-Haq said Sindh has a long history of relationship with Turkey. Many Turkish educational institutions have been operating in the province and providing quality education, he added.

Pir Mazhar-ul-Haq appreciated the role of SZABIST in the promotion of quality education in Sindh. He said the institution has five campuses at Karachi, Islamabad, Dubai, Larkana and Hyderabad. He informed that SZABIST is now developing medical city at Gharo to provide quality education to the people of Sindh. Provincial Ministers Aga Siraj Durrani, Ayaz Soomro, Haji Muzaffar Shujraa, Rafiq Engineer, representative of Board of Trustees SZABIST, Khursheed Ahmed Junejo, Saqib Rizvi, Dr. Suleman Shaikh, Secretary Education Mukhtiar Ahmed, Soomro, Additional Secretary Shahnaz Mazhar and others senior officers of the Education Department, and heads of various universities were also present.APP


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## BelligerentPacifist

We need to get rid of our children's mental programming. Unite against education.


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## A.Rafay

*Nestle opens school in Sindh*

KARACHI &#8211; Nestlé Pakistan inaugurated the &#8216;Government Primary Sindh School&#8217; at Peerano Goth, located in the suburbs of Port Qasim Industrial zone. The Provincial Minister for Education & Literacy, Pir Mazhar ul Haq along with the Managing Director of Nestlé Pakistan, Magdi Batato, unveiled the plaque for this inauguration ceremony. The school which was abandoned a decade ago fell to disrepair and now rebuilt by Nestlé Pakistan. The project was initiated in December 2011, achieving this milestone in 10 months, says a press release.


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## Death Rattle

A.Rafay said:


> *Nestle opens school in Sindh*
> 
> KARACHI &#8211; Nestlé Pakistan inaugurated the &#8216;Government Primary Sindh School&#8217; at Peerano Goth, located in the suburbs of Port Qasim Industrial zone. The Provincial Minister for Education & Literacy, Pir Mazhar ul Haq along with the Managing Director of Nestlé Pakistan, Magdi Batato, unveiled the plaque for this inauguration ceremony. The school which was abandoned a decade ago fell to disrepair and now rebuilt by Nestlé Pakistan. The project was initiated in December 2011, achieving this milestone in 10 months, says a press release.


I hope they will give the children free cadbury daily.


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## niaz

An excellent article on education or lack thereof in Pakistan.


The path we paved


Atta-ur-Rahman
Saturday, November 10, 2012 


In this day and age, the single most important factor that determines the fate of a nation and its state of socio-economic development is education. It is the scientists and engineers that are changing the world today. This is evident from the new technologies that are seen in a large number of emerging products, ranging from cell phones to automobiles, and from pharmaceuticals to new materials. Indeed it is the quality of education that eventually determines the stature of the leadership and the success or failure of democracy in a country.

Our countrys current problems may be attributed to the criminal neglect of education by successive governments. We spend only about 1.7 percent of our GDP on education, putting us among the bottom seven countries of the world. Most of our children grow up without a proper education, resulting in massive joblessness. The resulting frustration is leading thousands of youth today, particularly in cities like Karachi, to indulge in street crime as they see that as the only path available for survival. Phone snatching at gunpoint marks the beginning of careers in crime. The easy money from these crimes leads them to the next step: car theft. And from there they alleviate to serious crimes like robbery and kidnapping.

This is the road that we have paved for our youth; all the major political parties share the blame for their role in the neglect of education that has made Pakistan a living hell for many.

If an international vote was taken today for the worst country to live in due to crime and lack of opportunities, Pakistan would probably emerge as a winner. The reckless theft and plunder of those who have been in power for the last six decades, with few exceptions, has brought this country to its knees  to a point where many now doubt if it will survive.

Our salvation lies in quality education, but first we need to change our priorities. The exciting ways in which science, technology and innovation are changing the face of development can offer opportunities for us to leapfrog and emerge from our present miserable state.

A few recent examples of new technologies are illustrative of what is happening.

It is now possible to grow cells on a large scale in bioreactors; meat cells may one day be produced and processed to offer meat without the slaughtering of animals. Recently, a company Organovo based in San Diego, California, announced that it had developed a commercial 3D printer for manufacturing human organs. The 3D printer is claimed to be able to place and organise cells of any type on to a template in a predetermined manner. This will, one day, allow surgeons to have access to human tissues of various types on demand.

About 130-170 million persons worldwide are infected by hepatitis C. Hepatitis is a common viral disease found in Pakistan and many other countries with poor quality water supplies and sub-standard sanitation services. In an exciting development, Michael Houghton and his co-workers at the University of Alberta have developed a vaccine from a single strain of hepatitis C that was found to be effective against all known strains of the disease.

A Madrid-based designer, Rodrigo Garcia Gonzalez, has developed smart luggage that follows you wherever you go automatically. The suitcase or carry-on bag is fitted with a caterpillar track system and a small battery that allows it to roll along in any direction. It can be connected by blue tooth to a smartphone carried by the passenger. A microprocessor calculates the position of the smartphone and directs the suitcase to follow the passenger carrying it.

These are only three examples of recent developments in technology around the world. Technologically advanced countries are progressing rapidly through thousands of such discoveries and inventions every week that soon become commercial products. These researches are taking place either under the umbrella of universities or in research and development (R&D) centres of private companies. The governments of these countries have played a major role in boosting research activities by strengthening universities, establishing technology parks and venture capital funds to promote new start-up companies.

In Pakistan, we have paid little heed to science, technology, education or innovation since its inception and the little that had been achieved has been systematically destroyed by the government in recent years. Biotechnology is changing the face of agriculture and medicine. India established a full-fledged department of biotechnology under the central government in 1986 and has funded major programmes to strengthen biotechnology due to which the biotechnology industry has been growing by leaps and bounds.

On the footsteps of the Indian IT industry that has already grown to $60 billion, the biotechnology industry has grown to over $3 billion and is expanding at a rate greater than 25 percent per year. The famous Nobel Laureate Arthur Kornberg had once stated and I quote: Much has been said about the future impact of biotechnology on industrial development, but this does not yet apply to the less developed countries that lack this infrastructure and industrial strength. In view of the current power of biotechnology and its even brighter future, there is no question that the less developed countries must now position and strengthen their status in biotechnology  what a tragedy it would be if these enlarged concepts of genetics, biology and chemistry were available only to a small fraction of the world population located in a few major centres of highly developed countries.

When I was the federal minister of Science and Technology in 2001, I had established the National Commission of Biotechnology. The commission started a large number of programmes and was beginning to lay the foundations of biotechnology, when the enemies of Pakistan came into action. The government that followed not only closed down the National Commission of Biotechnology but also closed down all its programmes.

Another fast emerging field in science is nanotechnology. China, India and many other countries are investing heavily in this and it is already beginning to impact a large number of industries in different fields of engineering, pharmaceuticals, agriculture, transportation, electronic and computer sciences. Accordingly, I had also established a National Commission of Nanotechnology in Pakistan and provided funds through the Ministry of Science & Technology to promote this fast growing field. Alas, it met the same fate as the biotechnology commission. The National Commission of Nanotechnology was closed down by the subsequent government and its programmes abandoned. The attempts to destroy the HEC by corrupt politicians are a part of the same sad story. Its budget is about half of what it should have been and many of its programmes have been severely curtailed or abandoned.

The greatest enemies of Pakistan lie within our country. They are desperate to make sure that Pakistan does not progress in any field and becomes a failed state, while they loot and plunder all its wealth and pile it in the form of foreign assets and foreign bank accounts before fleeing abroad.

The writer is a former federal minister and former chairman of the HEC. Email: ibne_ sina@hotmail.com

The path we paved - Atta-ur-Rahman


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## Azadkashmir

this neglect is very wide spread my idea is to get everyone connected to the internet where information is abundant to build knowledge and students can join forums to participate in joint researching and discussion. for exmple i have joined pak science club and posted many ideas and diagrams to help with power cuts but there are very few members plus the the website has fault with the hyper links there seems to be pirate version of this and i am on the public version of the forum. 

my idea is this:

1. get connected to internet 
2.provide students with forum web addresses so they cna discuss work team work etc
3. give them assignment that will be helpful towards Pakistan problems. 
4.build a Pakistani version of forum all about electronics, mathematical formulas, solar power, wind power, biodiesel, biogas diy plans etc. 
5.banned stupid programs on tv provide alternative programs based on science, diy, etc. 

when i was in Pakistan i saw one of the schools it a run down pit and the books they read it contains content such as the cow is red, the bird is green and they repeat this like parrots all day even though they dont know what they saying. 
no electricity, no surge protectors so fans burn out, you go out to buy simple part and they ask ridiculous amount of money for a part they repaired cow boys style. they say yai du numbre hai but this was not no: 2 product but 3 or 4. 

you top up and telnet steal your money and anyway i paid for internet to use it for whole day but after one hour it cut off. 
see in Pakistan the mentality is this if they can memorize it they clever rather think critical. but maths they are good.

anyway to make matters worse i bought my mum present a atta machine lolz when i had it shipped over the goddamn thing was fake it had a fake motor in it that was wired wrong with no circuitry just naked wires to motor.


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## Gentelman

Death Rattle said:


> I hope they will give the children free cadbury daily.



they are not soo generous....


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## Gentelman

We need a new education system in which Primary Secondary and middle section are separated and teachers are given best facilities.............teachers should be selected by a board rather than by MNAs or MPAs and this board should be neutral having at least 20% share from private sector....This will show much improvement.


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## Jango

> SURFING the Internet recently, I caught the following joke doing the rounds. It&#8217;s in Punjabi, so the translation here is mine:
> 
> &#8220;The difficulties of being Pakistani: 1) Speak Punjabi in the home; 2) Speak Urdu in school; 3) Answer exam papers in British English; 4) Speak American English in office; and 5) After death, present your account in Arabic. So consider, what can a person do but fail!&#8221;
> 
> One way of looking at it is that we&#8217;re quite a polyglot country. Most people speak at least two languages, the one they were born to and the national language Urdu. The language of officialdom and of conducting business, though, is English, so many are to varying extents conversant with that too. Apart from the four main provincial languages, there are many regional languages and dialects.
> 
> The other way of looking at it &#8212; like the joke above &#8212; is along the lines of jack of all trades, master of none. We do, after all, have a national anthem in Persian which every school kid can sing but not understand, and every Muslim child who can read can also generally read &#8212; but not understand &#8212; Arabic.
> 
> That in many sections of society, people give preference to English is undeniable. I recently learned that at many of the country&#8217;s top-level schools, while children in pre-school (under six years) are by routine taught their ABCs, the issue of alif, bey, pey is not taken up till later, when Urdu becomes a defined &#8216;subject&#8217; in the curriculum.
> These are all English-medium schools, so obviously speaking this language is encouraged, Urdu even downgraded down to a one-hour-a-day exercise.
> 
> Automatically, then, even at the age of three or four, Urdu has been relegated to a second language. As the author Mohammed Hanif put it in an article entitled &#8216;Twist of the Mother Tongue&#8217;: &#8220;&#8230; most people who write in English cannot pick up a newspaper in their local language to find out what yesterday&#8217;s riot was about. It&#8217;s not their fault. They went to good schools, sometimes schools so good that the main purpose of their education was to ensure their talents remained unpolluted by local languages and cultures. [&#8230;]&#8221;
> 
> But for several years now, there has been a new phenomenon. When a teacher friend told his college-level class in Karachi that they could write their exams in either Urdu or English, 80 per cent asked if they could write in &#8216;Roman Urdu&#8217;, i.e. using the Roman alphabet to write in Urdu. That, they said, was what they were most comfortable in. When the teacher probed, most said that they&#8217;d become used to thinking in Urdu and writing it in the Roman alphabet because of SMS texting, Facebook and email.
> 
> I too conducted a straw survey a few years ago at an upper-class private university in Lahore. Of the 200 or so students that I asked, everyone could read and write English, everyone could speak Urdu and read/write it in Roman, but only a handful could read the headlines of an Urdu paper.
> 
> We aren&#8217;t losing Urdu &#8212; notwithstanding the lament that goes up from time to time about a slowdown in quality literature in the language, the Urdu Conference convened in Karachi last week was packed solid with attendees. But could it be that for a certain class and generation, the use of the script is falling into disuse?
> 
> After all, the computer age has meant that writing by hand is any case becoming a dying art form, used mainly for writing lists and cutting receipts.
> 
> People won&#8217;t not learn to write, of course, but they will become and are becoming increasingly used to typing for writing in any appreciable quantity. And people do spend many minutes and hours using mediums that may not have readily available Urdu-character options.
> 
> But Urdu options are available, and we need to use them more. There are numerous Urdu portals and apps; you can have Facebook in Urdu, and Twitter also introduced the site in Arabic, Hebrew, Farsi and Urdu in March.
> 
> We need, in fact, to clean up our languages and scripts, use the correct one without all the deplorable mixing. That just feeds into the lazy thinking that is already part of the problem in Pakistan.
> 
> As a single block, the place where you see this problem the most in Pakistan is in the advertising industry, where English and Urdu are routinely mixed together &#8212; to the benefit of neither &#8212; and &#8216;Roman Urdu&#8217; has become common, no doubt to be able to get the message across to cash-wielding youngsters from the sort of school Hanif wrote about.
> 
> But &#8212; and since it&#8217;s the advertising industry I&#8217;m talking to, I know this is an exercise in futility &#8212; the practice is dumbing Pakistanis down. Elsewhere in the world, minds are at work protecting languages and scripts; Twitter said in its blog: &#8220;Right-to-left languages posed a unique technical challenge, particularly with Tweets containing both right-to-left and left-to-right content. To solve this, our engineering team built a new set of special tools to ensure these Tweets, hashtags and numbers all look and behave correctly.&#8221;
> 
> We should be doing the same.
> 
> Tailpiece: Hanif continues: &#8220;When I was growing up in Pakistan, the complete inability to read or write in your mother tongue was a prerequisite for upward mobility.
> Pakistan&#8217;s founding father &#8212; the self-made aristocrat Mohammad Ali Jinnah &#8212; could barely string a sentence together in Urdu, a language that he imposed on Pakistan as its national language with tragic consequences.
> 
> &#8220;The most influential Pakistani politician of our times, the late Benazir Bhutto, spoke no Urdu when she started her career but later delighted her followers by endlessly and recklessly improvising in that language. For a long time, to rule Pakistan it was almost necessary not to be able to speak any of its languages. Or to speak them like a well-meaning foreigner. [&#8230;]&#8221;
> 
> Loss of a script? | DAWN.COM



Related with education in a way. We have parallel systems running in our country, and alot of people from the O/A level stream regard Urdu as a lowly language. Language of the poor, and prefer talking in that stylized English to pose themselves as more modern and seemingly more educated.


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## Cherokee

By the way i read somewhere more than 50 percent of Pakistani kids in school are in religious school called "madrassas" . My question is do madrassas equip a child with same level of knowledge as a public or private school in fields of Maths , Science , physics , chemistry , computer science , English et all ??


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## unicorn

*Urdu is dying*. 

This example is a clear evidence of it. Funny isn't it. 

It is not just this oath, people in our country are getting more and more reluctant to abandon one of the greatest gift of God. I am sure everyone feels the same way if they observe things.

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## notorious_eagle

Community funding for Pakistan schools - YouTube

We need more initiatives like this all across Pakistan. Its heartening to see that this remote small village in Hunza has achieved 100% literacy rate, this is something we can be proud of and should be implemented all across pakistan. Education is the key that will take Pakistan forward into the 21st century. It was delightful to see young little girls and boys studying side by side to make a better future for themselves. This little village has honestly put the entire nation to shame, not only is education being encouraged but girls are being encouraged to achieve a quality education.

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## niaz

In my humble opinion one of the main reasons of Pakistan's drift to extremism is that we are lacking behind the world in educating our masses.

Here is a nice article on Social Sciences education.

Death of social sciences

ZUBEIDA MUSTAFA


THE competition for space in academia between the social sciences and the others  namely, the pure and physical sciences, technological disciplines, medicine-related knowledge, and business and management studies  has been a permanent feature of the intellectual history of mankind.

Our one and only Nobel laureate, Prof Abdus Salam, would always be lamenting that Pakistan lacks a science culture. That not only meant that we neglect science in our universities and do not allocate enough resources for research. It also implies we do not inculcate the spirit of inquiry in our children and as a nation we do not analyse natural and social phenomena rationally and on the basis of scientifically verified information.

The treatment meted out to Dr Salam in his lifetime and after his death by this country vindicates his lament about our alienation from science.

The social sciences have fared no better. Dr Inayatullah, the founder-president of the Council of Social Sciences, Pakistan, felt equally dismal about the state of social sciences in the country. Adopting a solution-oriented approach, he emphasised the importance of rigorous evaluation and verification and proceeded to found COSS to serve as a forum for social scientists.

One may well ask, why this apathy towards the social sciences? As in the case of other branches of education, the fact is that knowledge is implicitly regarded as an enemy by the class that wields power and monopolises privilege.

Its anti-education stance obstructs the thought process in children that creates gullible adults who fall victim to charlatans of all variety.

Since the social sciences study the state, society, culture and peoples relationship with them they have a direct impact on the lives of people. Lack of knowledge of the social sciences can be dangerous. These sciences are indispensable as they can facilitate positive behavioral changes and improve the processes and institutions that are concerned with the development of the human mind.

If the study of the social sciences is pursued vigorously and an open debate is encouraged it creates public awareness and gives rise to diversity of thought and belief that acts as a check on the monopoly of state power. Moreover, the social sciences can be instrumental in promoting equity, freedom, tolerance and social justice which are anathema to the powers-that-be in an authoritarian set-up.

As Pakistan slides towards self-destruction, unsurprisingly the social sciences are going out of fashion. Take the example of the University of Karachi, the largest institution of higher education in the country. Of the over 31,000 students on its rolls, only a few over 9,000 opt for the social sciences which includes the faculty of education.

Death of social sciences - DAWN.COM


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## Argus Panoptes

niaz said:


> In my humble opinion one of the main reasons of Pakistan's drift to extremism is that we are lacking behind the world in educating our masses.
> 
> Here is a nice article on Social Sciences education.
> 
> *Death of social sciences*
> 
> ZUBEIDA MUSTAFA
> .................
> 
> Death of social sciences - DAWN.COM



The reason for that is very simple Sir. We treat education as the means to a good paying job, not as a path to actual enlightenment. That comes only with better social security and economic development.

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## ajpirzada

is education (as we know it) really an answer to extremism? i tend to find educated people more extremist than the ignorant ones. eg. taliban leadership is considerably educated while on the other hand christopher hitchens, richard dawkins and others (generally called as New Atheists) are equally extremist in their own rhetoric. 

on a lighter note, all of us should be taught some ignorance. ignorance of the type where we are taught: you do not know everything and could possibly never know everything thus what you say could very well be wrong. Be humble and go home!!


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## Edevelop

*Legislation for compulsory free education &#8216;soon&#8217;*

LAHORE, July 16: Punjab Education Minister Rana Mashhood Ahmad Khan has said the provincial government will soon be legislating for Article 25-A to impart free and compulsory education to all children in 5-16 years age bracket in the province.

In a statement issued here on Tuesday, he said, the draft law would soon be made public for feedback before tabling it in the Punjab Assembly for approval in a month or so.

In order to ensure provision of free and compulsory education to all children of school-going age, he said, &#8216;District Education Authority (DEA)&#8217; would be established in each district that would effectively implement the relevant law. He said the authority would be empowered to grant a cash prize up to Rs1 million to the educational institutions in districts producing excellent results.

On the other hand, he said, the educational institutions producing pathetic results would be held accountable through the DEA that would also redress complaints regarding any hindrance to education promotion.

Legislation for compulsory free education ?soon? - DAWN.COM


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## Gentelman

unicorn said:


> *Urdu is dying*.
> 
> This example is a clear evidence of it. Funny isn't it.
> 
> It is not just this oath, people in our country are getting more and more reluctant to abandon one of the greatest gift of God. I am sure everyone feels the same way if they observe things.


Pakistan Khappay Khappay Khappay!!


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## Levina

@Leader 
I liked what I read in here...
Dubai engineer building a future for Pakistan village | GulfNews.com
Comes close to how Imran Khan's charitable organization works. IMO.

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## Leader

levina said:


> @Leader
> I liked what I read in here...
> Dubai engineer building a future for Pakistan village | GulfNews.com
> Comes close to how Imran Khan's charitable organization works. IMO.



you know what this is great, but this is suppose to be done by the govt, the guy without a second thought is doing great job, he is helping his villagers which is commendable. but how this service is going to continue after he is gone? some financial circle must be established to make charitable work go on. the same is with Shaukat khanam cancer hospital, its half budget is still depending on the donors. still not a trust, so is the namal college. if someday I am to establish such an institution which I will, I need to ensure that it must be financial sound, once its established, it should not depend on donations. 

but none the less, obviously, no matter what the size of the work, mr saeed hayat is doing a great job.

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## Hiptullha

nuclearpak said:


> Related with education in a way. We have parallel systems running in our country, and alot of people from the O/A level stream regard Urdu as a lowly language. Language of the poor, and prefer talking in that stylized English to pose themselves as more modern and seemingly more educated.



I've seen the Urdu Syllabus for Urdu in O levels. It's not that Urdu is considered a lowly language, the thing is, children are basically being forced into memorizing stories of Urdu poets, and Urdu writers and when they ask "Why is this important?", teachers just scold them.
If we want Urdu to become popular then we must be a little less firm in how we teach children. Language is creative, almost spiritual in my opinion. Children should be allowed to explore and develop in their own time instead of being forced to analyse writers and poets who they detest.

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## SekrutYakhni

Hiptullha said:


> I've seen the Urdu Syllabus for Urdu in O levels. It's not that Urdu is considered a lowly language, the thing is, children are basically being forced into memorizing stories of Urdu poets, and Urdu writers and when they ask "Why is this important?", teachers just scold them.
> If we want Urdu to become popular then we must be a little less firm in how we teach children. Language is creative, almost spiritual in my opinion. Children should be allowed to explore and develop in their own time instead of being forced to analyse writers and poets who they detest.



You are right.


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## Al Bhatti

January 18, 2014

*UAE starts seven educational projects in Pakistan*






$14.4m programme includes three colleges and four vocational and rehabilitation centres for women

The UAE Pakistan Assistance Programme (UAE PAP) has started the implementation of seven educational projects, including three colleges and four vocational and rehabilitation centres for women at a cost $14.4 million (Dh52.9 million).

The move follows the directives by President His Highness Shaikh Khalifa Bin Zayed Al Nahyan to support the Pakistani people and contribute to the development of the education sector.


The UAE PAP said the new projects are part of the second phase ordered by the UAE President and being followed up by General Shaikh Mohammad Bin Zayed Al Nahyan, Abu Dhabi Crown Prince and Deputy Supreme Commander of the UAE Armed Forces, and Shaikh Mansour Bin Zayed Al Nahyan, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Presidential Affairs and Board Chairman of the Abu Dhabi Fund for Development (ADFD), to contribute to the development of infrastructure in Pakistan.

The UAE PAP’s administration said that the educational projects would provide an appropriate education environment, adding that the three colleges cost $12.4 million. They offer study programmes in fields of medicine, engineering and computing. Meanwhile, the new four vocational and rehabilitation centres for women at cost $2 million will provide training for women in crafts, sewing, the beauty industry, wax, cooking and first aid. The four centres are financed by the Abu Dhabi Fund for Development.

UAE starts seven educational projects in Pakistan | GulfNews.com

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## Leader

KP moves towards One Educational System !

KP moves towards One Educational System !

KP moves towards One Educational System !

KP moves towards One Educational System !

KP moves towards One Educational System !

KP moves towards One Educational System !

KP moves towards One Educational System !

KP moves towards One Educational System !


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## Al Bhatti

April 26, 2014


*UAE Project opens Jahanzeb College*


UAE Project to Assist Pakistan inaugurates re-constructed Jahanzeb Post Graduate Degree College

Under the directives of President His Highness Shaikh Khalifa Bin Zayed Al Nahyan to support Pakistan’s educational system, the UAE Project to Assist Pakistan has officially inaugurated the Jahanzeb Post Graduate Degree College (JPC), the oldest educational institution in Malakand, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province, Pakistan, marking the completion of the reconstruction of the institution at a cost of $1.209 million.

The UAE Project to Assist Pakistan (UAE. PAP), in collaboration with Pakistan Army, reconstructed JPC, which was established in 1952 to grant degrees in 7 disciplines, and it accommodates 300 students. JPC was rebuilt on an area of 3,577 square meters to house modern academic departments. The facility has a main lecture auditorium, 10 classrooms, 4 laboratories, 16 teaching and administrative staff offices and an administration building.

In his remarks at the inauguration ceremony, General Raheel Sharif, Chief of Staff of the Pakistan Army (COAS) thanked Shaikh Khalifa for his constant support for Pakistan through his generous humanitarian initiatives which have their focus on human development and contribute to efforts to boost several sectors such as education, healthcare, water, transport and road networks.

He affirmed that the people of Pakistan will always remain grateful for the genuine humanitarian attitudes of Shaikh Khalifa who spares no efforts to support the humanitarian causes of the people of Pakistan at times of crisis.

The initiatives of Shaikh Khalifa, added General Sharif, contributed to the development of areas hit by earthquakes and floods and backed the Pakistani government’s efforts to alleviate the suffering of the poor and the underprivileged.

For his part, Eisa Abdullah Al Basha Al Nuaimi, UAE Ambassador to Pakistan, hailed the humanitarian approach of the UAE under the leadership of Shaikh Khalifa which aims at giving support to fraternal and friendly countries through development projects in sectors such as education, healthcare, transport, water and others.

UAE Project opens Jahanzeb College | GulfNews.com

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## Leader

*Schools under watch*


Will the Independent Monitoring Unit help improve attendance and performance of teachers and education administrators in KPK?



The Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa government has launched an Independent Monitoring Unit (IMU) to improve attendance and performance of teachers and education administrators in the province. The IMU has been established under a three-year project funded by the UK’s Department for International Development. Rs500 million have been allocated for the initiative this year and more funds will be set aside for it in the next budget(s). The project will be extended if found useful after a third-party verification. Rs100 million have also been earmarked for establishing a third-party monitoring mechanism.

Muhammad Atif Khan, Provincial Minister for Elementary and Secondary Education (E&SE) Department, says 475 IMU monitors — 303 men and 172 women — have been appointed on merit for boys and girls schools respectively. They receive a fixed pay of Rs30,000 a month. Male monitors have been given motorcycles with Rs10,000 fuel allowance.

Each KP district has been divided in groups, each consisting of up to 60 schools and every monitor is responsible for visiting all the schools in his group. He/she has to visit a school at least once a month.

On the terms of references (ToRs) and standard operating procedure (SoP) of monitors, the minister says they are basically real-time data collectors and transmitters. “They have been trained for the purpose. They will collect, physically verify and send immediately data on the attendance of teachers, enrolment/dropout rate of students, needs and deficiencies of teachers and other school paraphernalia etc.”

The monitors will also collect data on the inspection of officers to schools, the distribution of free textbooks, stipends to the female students and the parents-teachers’ council (PTC) and other school funds. He says monitors have been given smart-phones with a proper format for feeding data and a general packet radio system (GPRS) to collect and transmit real-time data of/from the concerned schools to the IMU head office in Peshawar.

Asked what measures have been taken to guard against the misuse of powers by monitors, Khan says, “The monitors have been trained to be polite to principals/teachers, not to indulge in reasoning and avoid meddling in the teaching learning process. Their performance will also be monitored and action will be taken if any genuine complaints come to surface against them. The IMU is independent of the department’s control. They have to submit data immediately from the school they visit. This has been done to save the system from data/record-tampering.”

The KP Chief Minister, Pervez Khattak, recently issued directives of handing over the monitoring of all hospitals and basic health units to the IMU. But the system has been put in place in the education department only. The IMU has been empowered to monitor only schools in the public sector while education offices and private schools are still out of its ambit.

It is hoped the IMU will help pinpoint “ghost schools and proxy teachers” (the IMU, as reported, has detected 12 proxy teachers, four women among them, in government schools in Buner district recently), improve teachers’ attendance and make it easy/possible to take action against the corrupt and negligent elements in the department.

Most of the principals and head-masters of the E&SE Department support the initiative. They say teachers’ attendance and punctuality have improved significantly ever-since the launch of the IMU.

Mumtazuddin, a principal of a government higher secondary school, is all praise for the IMU. He says the IMU is a sort of an external counter-check upon the internal supervision system of the department. External or a third-party check, he says, is done everywhere in the world. “Officers fail to visit schools even in years. With teachers and internal monitors (administrative officers) mostly shirking responsibilities, the IMU is the need of the hour,” he says.

“Intra-district shuffling of monitors is being carried out every month to prevent the problems/dangers of familiarity/rapprochement between teachers and monitors. These dangers could be further minimised by inter-district shifting of monitors,” according to another principal.

Some teachers support the move: “One of the biggest problems is the flawed monitoring system. Exceptions apart, our departmental monitoring system is too politicised, powerless and under-funded. One hopes the IMU will be kept safe from political interference, corruption, and data-delaying/tampering for whatever reasons. Much will depend also on whether its recommendations will be executed,” a teacher says.

But some term it ‘an unwarranted and inapt’ move that would ultimately bring little/no change. They say schools and teachers are monitored by head masters, and inspected by cluster heads, district education officers, directors, local bodies members, national and provincial assemblies’ members and chairman and members of the PTCs.

“There was no need to establish the IMU. Rather, the government should have strengthened/empowered the internal monitoring system. Schools should be left to the district education officers. Principals and officers should be empowered and political intervention in appointments and postings should be eliminated. Good administrators could do wonders,” says a teacher.

“Principals and administrators would also definitely give good results if facilities like smart-phones with GPRS connection and powers are provided to them and they are also made to report their inspection report immediately. Biometric attendance system at schools can also improve teachers’ punctuality. But teachers’ performance also needs to be improved. Principals should be explicitly authorised to hire new teachers from PTC or other school funds,” he argues.

Another teacher complains that earlier principals/headmasters and the district officers used to report on deficiencies and requirements of teachers, chairs, desks, books and other basic facilities regularly but these were scarcely fulfilled. Now monitors do the same, but will the government act upon their reports/recommendations? Khan responds the government will ensure speedy action on their reports and recommendations concerning administrative and financial matters and will allocate resources.

Khan says: “Rather it is a quest for excellence. Why would one have gone for this if the earlier internal monitoring system had been successful during the last 65 years? Our history proves and no one can contest that it has failed to deliver and that a change was needed.”

Another teacher, wishing anonymity, says: “The monitors visit a school once or twice a month. What if a teacher, who is otherwise punctual and dutiful, is on-leave or late on the monitor’s arrival date(s). Won’t that cause a negative and wrong perception about him in the IMU system?” He adds: “Educational monitoring is too technical a job to be left to inexperienced monitors. This is bound to fail.”

The KP E&SE Department possesses over 168000 employees with 133750 sanctioned and 119274 functional teachers who teach 3.9 million students in 28472 total and 27975 functional government primary, middle, high, and higher secondary schools.

It means a monitor will check around 250-280 teachers and 58-60 schools. The monitor-employee ratio will be 1:350 if education offices also come under their oversight.

Besides weak monitoring mechanism, crowded classrooms, indifference of teachers and administrators and political interference, lack of basic facilities at schools is a big problem. Over 20 per cent of the functional public schools in KP still have no boundary walls, 30 per cent no water supply, 42 per cent no electricity and 16 per cent no toilets facilities.


Schools under watch | TNS - The News on Sunday


the website will be up in two days: 

Tameer-e-School - Coming Soon


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## Leader

*KPK forms TEVTA with foreign collaboration*
The Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (KPK) government established Technical Education & Vocational Training Agency (TEVTA) to streamline technical and vocational education and training (TVET) in the province on Sunday.

Setting up this new body is part of the Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaaf-led (PTI) government’s ongoing reform agenda, being implemented in different public sector organisations to improve the quality of service delivery.

To make the delivery of the TVET linked to the market needs, the KPK government has also appointed known industrialist NaumanWazir as its first chairperson. The newly appointed chairperson presided over a one-day consultative workshop with the heads of the technical training institutes from all over KPK, where the future plans for the TEVTA were discussed at length.

The TVET Reform Support Programme, co-funded by the European Union, Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands in Pakistan and the Federal Republic of Germany and implemented by Deutsche Gesellschaft fürInternationale Zusammenarbeit (GIZ) GmbH, provided the technical assistance for the session.

*KPK forms TEVTA with foreign collaboration | Pakistan Today*


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## Leader

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/465044707484000256


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## Al Bhatti

unicorn said:


> *Urdu is dying*.
> 
> This example is a clear evidence of it. Funny isn't it.
> 
> It is not just this oath, people in our country are getting more and more reluctant to abandon one of the greatest gift of God. I am sure everyone feels the same way if they observe things.



What if one side is not good in Urdu and the other side is not good in English , in this case what will be the language of the oath? Sign language?

In my view the language of correspondence (Written or spoken) in all government departments inside Pakistan should be only Urdu. Just by implementing this single thing, imagine how many jobs will be created for translators in Pakistan as all foreigners in Pakistan have to get docs translated into Urdu from an authorized translator. For any transaction like marriage certificates or power of attorneys etc…..

Also our passports and NICOP should have the holders details in both Urdu and English and not just English.

The media has a big part to play in bring back Urdu by appointing linguistics to check the news / reports before a broadcast. People say there are some modern words which have no Urdu equivalent, well There was a time when Urdu was formed from scratch using Arabic and Persian and Turkish words, why not use the same strategy again? A language can keep up with the modern era provided an institution is made to enhance the develop the language with time and also steps should be taken to make sure such institutions are doing their job properly.


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## Mugwop

I spoke to a friend of mines in . He said if the education was taught in Urdu it would be more beneficial.

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## Leader




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## Leader

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152652601813383





What KPK Govt has done for Education? Listen Atif Khan Education Minister

Key Points of KPK Education Minister Atif khan Interview

- 107 new schools will be made in this year , 70% of the schools will be of girls 
- 1000 community schools will be functional in a month or two . 
- 80 Caror has been allocated for teacher training . 
- Allocation of the largest budget for education in the history of KPK & Pakistan ( According to Per Capica )
- 1500-2000 stipend will be given to female students in KPK 
- Best Monitoring system for schools and teachers attendance has 
been introduced in KPK using the latest technology (Andriod Apps). 
- Bio Metric system has started working in education offices in KPK to check the attendance


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## MastanKhan

Al Bhatti said:


> What if one side is not good in Urdu and the other side is not good in English , in this case what will be the language of the oath? Sign language?
> 
> In my view the language of correspondence (Written or spoken) in all government departments inside Pakistan should be only Urdu. Just by implementing this single thing, imagine how many jobs will be created for translators in Pakistan as all foreigners in Pakistan have to get docs translated into Urdu from an authorized translator. For any transaction like marriage certificates or power of attorneys etc…..
> 
> Also our passports and NICOP should have the holders details in both Urdu and English and not just English.
> 
> The media has a big part to play in bring back Urdu by appointing linguistics to check the news / reports before a broadcast. People say there are some modern words which have no Urdu equivalent, well There was a time when Urdu was formed from scratch using Arabic and Persian and Turkish words, why not use the same strategy again? A language can keep up with the modern era provided an institution is made to enhance the develop the language with time and also steps should be taken to make sure such institutions are doing their job properly.


 
Hi,

When a reporter asked the japanese ambassador to pakistan---what do you think----will pakistan be successful---he replied never---the reporter asked why---the ambassador replied---pakistan's is travelling in just the opposite direction of success---it will never happen.

and you sir----are proof of that-----. You already have an asset in your resource---ie english----instead of maximizing it----you want to minimize it----. Who needs india as an enemy----when pakistanis will do it to themselves.

For the enemies of pakistan---your biggest achievement---building of the atom bomb---was carried out by those who were fluent in english---german---dutch---french----. When working in pakistan----these scientists even had work hours emulating those in the west.

Your F16 pilots on their first ever training in the u s in the early 80's---they were praised with the highest accoldes---beacuse of their proficiency in english as compared to pilots from other nations---pak pilots were way ahead of the learning curve.

W'alalh----Allah has given the nation a gift and the nation has thrown it in the trash----.



Mugwop said:


> I spoke to a friend of mines in . He said if the education was taught in Urdu it would be more beneficial.


 

And while you are at it----don't step on those " mines "---they have a tendency to blow up----hehn.


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## Al Bhatti

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When a reporter asked the japanese ambassador to pakistan---what do you think----will pakistan be successful---he replied never---the reporter asked why---the ambassador replied---pakistan's is travelling in just the opposite direction of success---it will never happen.
> 
> and you sir----are proof of that-----. You already have an asset in your resource---ie english----instead of maximizing it----you want to minimize it----. Who needs india as an enemy----when pakistanis will do it to themselves.
> 
> For the enemies of pakistan---your biggest achievement---building of the atom bomb---was carried out by those who were fluent in english---german---dutch---french----. When working in pakistan----these scientists even had work hours emulating those in the west.
> 
> Your F16 pilots on their first ever training in the u s in the early 80's---they were praised with the highest accoldes---beacuse of their proficiency in english as compared to pilots from other nations---pak pilots were way ahead of the learning curve.
> 
> W'alalh----Allah has given the nation a gift and the nation has thrown it in the trash----.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And while you are at it----don't step on those " mines "---they have a tendency to blow up----hehn.



Japan, China, South Korea, developed non-english speaking countries of Europe and many others. All focus on their national language and a second language side by side. They did not give up the national language in the curriculum on the contrary the national language was developed with time and new words and terminology were added using their own language and not by using English words and using their national language alphabets or phonetics.


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## MastanKhan

Al Bhatti said:


> Japan, China, South Korea, developed non-english speaking countries of Europe and many others. All focus on their national language and a second language side by side. They did not give up the national language in the curriculum on the contrary the national language was developed with time and new words and terminology were added using their own language and not by using English words and using their national language alphabets or phonetics.


 
Sir,

Japan korea china have a long history of freedom and independence---they have their own base of technology and resource----. Japan had banned guns in the lte 1500's I beleive and when the blackships came to port---a century later----there were no guns in japan. They had their own industrial base----which they developed with time. Their technology developed in parallel to that of the west---.

When west became the dominant power---they adopted the ways of the west to compete----but they had a base and foundations to build upon.

OTOH---pakistan had nothing of that sort----the only asset it had was fluency in english----the current lingua frnca---other than that no induatrial base, no books, no cultural heritge nothing----.

In the last 100 + years when the world changed and english became the lingua frnca----we already had the tools to ride the wave to success and we did for a long time. Dealing in english gave us advantage over other nations of our likes and we got way ahead of them.

Now the children of pakistan and enemies of pakistan want to negate the advantage our forefathers built for us to compete with the world.


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## Mugwop

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When a reporter asked the japanese ambassador to pakistan---what do you think----will pakistan be successful---he replied never---the reporter asked why---the ambassador replied---pakistan's is travelling in just the opposite direction of success---it will never happen.
> 
> and you sir----are proof of that-----. You already have an asset in your resource---ie english----instead of maximizing it----you want to minimize it----. Who needs india as an enemy----when pakistanis will do it to themselves.
> 
> For the enemies of pakistan---your biggest achievement---building of the atom bomb---was carried out by those who were fluent in english---german---dutch---french----. When working in pakistan----these scientists even had work hours emulating those in the west.
> 
> Your F16 pilots on their first ever training in the u s in the early 80's---they were praised with the highest accoldes---beacuse of their proficiency in english as compared to pilots from other nations---pak pilots were way ahead of the learning curve.
> 
> W'alalh----Allah has given the nation a gift and the nation has thrown it in the trash----.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And while you are at it----don't step on those " mines "---they have a tendency to blow up----hehn.


What are you trying to say here? Can you please elaborate?


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## Hiptullha

Mugwop said:


> What are you trying to say here? Can you please elaborate?



He wants us to focus on English instead of Urdu. 
Boy, those British really turned us into servile Brown sahibs, didn't they?

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## Mugwop

Hiptullha said:


> He wants us to focus on English instead of Urdu.
> Boy, those British really turned us into servile Brown sahibs, didn't they?


Hmm I would say the same because English is my first language but some people have difficulty with learning in english in Pakistan.There should be a separate program for those kids who want to learn in urdu,punjabi,etc.


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## Hiptullha

Mugwop said:


> Hmm I would say the same because English is my first language but some people have difficulty with learning in english in Pakistan.There should be a separate program for those kids who want to learn in urdu,punjabi,etc.



I do believe English is important, but the illiteracy levels for LOCAL languages is very high. People still can't read Urdu or their local provincial languages. I think it's important to jump over that hurdle first and then focus on English. Even basic level would do.

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## MastanKhan

Hiptullha said:


> He wants us to focus on English instead of Urdu.
> Boy, those British really turned us into servile Brown sahibs, didn't they?


 
You m---n---these atom bombs that you brag about----these were all manufctured by the brown gora arse kissing sahibs----these F16 pilots that you strut around about----they were ahead because of their gora arse kissing english speech----


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## Luftwaffe

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Japan korea china have a long history of freedom and independence---they have their own base of technology and resource----. Japan had banned guns in the lte 1500's I beleive and when the blackships came to port---a century later----there were no guns in japan. They had their own industrial base----which they developed with time. Their technology developed in parallel to that of the west---.
> 
> When west became the dominant power---they adopted the ways of the west to compete----but they had a base and foundations to build upon.
> 
> OTOH---pakistan had nothing of that sort----the only asset it had was fluency in english----the current lingua frnca---other than that no induatrial base, no books, no cultural heritge nothing----.
> 
> In the last 100 + years when the world changed and english became the lingua frnca----we already had the tools to ride the wave to success and we did for a long time. Dealing in english gave us advantage over other nations of our likes and we got way ahead of them.
> 
> Now the children of pakistan and enemies of pakistan want to negate the advantage our forefathers built for us to compete with the world.



May I add with permission, Chinese Military products coming out have less technological influence of russia recently and more of US type/style and inputs, they have realized they have to look towards standards to develop standards that has made US concerned to some extend.


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## MastanKhan

Mugwop said:


> What are you trying to say here? Can you please elaborate?


 
Hi,

You asked for it---we are a nation of third rate people and when it comes to comparison---we want to compare ourselves with nations of first rate people.

Japan korea china have thousand years of history and their own industrial base--schools---colleges----univesities---research---teachers---professors---engineers---etc etc etc---they had maintained and managed their natural development over the centuries.

You hve nothing in comprison to these three----for comprison---you hve nigeria---zimbabwe---iraq----syria---iran---myanmar---bangladesh---.

The amazing thing is that you have already climbed the mountain that others like china japan korea taiwan etc despeartely want to climb----english has become mandatory for their children and younger generation---they want to climb because they have learnt that in order for them to get to the next pletaeu---they will be walking and talking english.

The only problem is that you want to come down the mountain and start all over again----.



Hiptullha said:


> I do believe English is important, but the illiteracy levels for LOCAL languages is very high. People still can't read Urdu or their local provincial languages. I think it's important to jump over that hurdle first and then focus on English. Even basic level would do.


 

Sir,

The illetercy level is high becuse of criminal negligence of education---you are the only nation of the world with negative education growth----your problem is not of english---but simply of not learning----english is just a bag that you want to beat up on.

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## Hiptullha

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You asked for it---we are a nation of third rate people and when it comes to comparison---we want to compare ourselves with nations of first rate people.
> 
> Japan korea china have thousand years of history and their own industrial base--schools---colleges----univesities---research---teachers---professors---engineers---etc etc etc---they had maintained and managed their natural development over the centuries.
> 
> You hve nothing in comprison to these three----for comprison---you hve nigeria---zimbabwe---iraq----syria---iran---myanmar---bangladesh---.
> 
> The amazing thing is that you have already climbed the mountain that others like china japan korea taiwan etc despeartely want to climb----english has become mandatory for their children and younger generation---they want to climb because they have learnt that in order for them to get to the next pletaeu---they will be walking and talking english.
> 
> The only problem is that you want to come down the mountain and start all over again----.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> The illetercy level is high becuse of criminal negligence of education---you are the only nation of the world with negative education growth----your problem is not of english---but simply of not learning----english is just a bag that you want to beat up on.



So what do you suggest? We pool millions of dollars into education and Ta Da! Now not only do our students know Urdu, Pakhtun, Sindhi, Balochi, and Punjabi, and English. They also know Dari, Persian and Arabic.
The key is to take SMALL steps. The entire nation believes that big massive operations, massive shuffling in departments, and massive reforms.



MastanKhan said:


> You m---n---these atom bombs that you brag about----these were all manufctured by the brown gora arse kissing sahibs----these F16 pilots that you strut around about----they were ahead because of their gora arse kissing english speech----



Bhutto started the nuclear program and he was a staunch nationalist who laughed in the face of the West.


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## MastanKhan

Luftwaffe said:


> May I add with permission, Chinese Military products coming out have less technological influence of russia recently and more of US type/style and inputs, they have realized they have to look towards standards to develop standards that has made US concerned to some extend.


 
Hi,

It may come as a big surprise to many that china is the largest buyer of military works of fiction books printed in the U S---written by western authors. How easy is it to leak informtion in english----you just need to know the language and know what to look for to know what is in there.

& this is the biggest headache for the intelligence agy's to keep track of all the published stuff---. Now in this case simply knowing the english languge is not enough----you ought to have similr background in eduction to understnd what is being written.



Hiptullha said:


> Bhutto started the nuclear program and he was a staunch nationalist who laughed in the face of the West.


 
& he spoke english all the time---was educted in english---taught in english and communicted in english---so much so that he had his kids taught in english---& all those scientists spoke fluent english and lived and worked on english work timetble in pakistan---I knew many of them first hand and lived with one of them for few years---.


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## Hiptullha

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It may come as a big surprise to many that china is the largest buyer of military works of fiction books printed in the U S---written by western authors. How easy is it to leak informtion in english----you just need to know the language and know what to look for to know what is in there.
> 
> & this is the biggest headache for the intelligence agy's to keep track of all the published stuff---. Now in this case simply knowing the english languge is not enough----you ought to have similr background in eduction to understnd what is being written.
> 
> 
> 
> & he spoke english all the time---was educted in english---taught in english and communicted in english---so much so that he had his kids taught in english---& all those scientists spoke fluent english and lived and worked on english work timetble in pakistan---I knew many of them first hand and lived with one of them for few years---.



Wow they speak English. They MUST obviously love the West. I also write in English. Why not accuse me of loving the West?


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## Luftwaffe

Hiptullha said:


> Wow they speak English. They MUST obviously love the West. I also write in English. Why not accuse me of loving the West?



You would be surprise, there are Military institutes of US/NATO teaching French, Arab and other languages. It is from strategic point of view to learn English to understand superior force and their technologies and their ways how they gained such supremacy.


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## Hiptullha

Luftwaffe said:


> You would be surprise, there are Military institutes of US/NATO teaching French, Arab and other languages. It is from strategic point of view to learn English to understand superior force and their technologies and their ways how they gained such supremacy.



I'm all fine and dandy with learning English, but right now to give it importance over Urdu when there is great illiteracy in the sub-continent is insane. 
I'd love to make our nation of farmers and fisherman and shopkeepers and businessmen and sweepers and doctors and engineers a superior fighting force, but not now.

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## Donatello

Luftwaffe said:


> May I add with permission, Chinese Military products coming out have less technological influence of russia recently and more of US type/style and inputs, they have realized they have to look towards standards to develop standards that has made US concerned to some extend.



That's where Pakistan helped them. Since the PAF/Pak Army/Navy operated western weapons for a long time, they were able to give insight to the Chinese on how to work and make machines like these. Not to mention the major chunk of our nuclear technology came from Europe/Canada/USA etc and we gladly shared with the Chinese. From F-16s to nuclear processing equipment. From AIM 9s to Matra 530s, Chinese were able to get a first hand account of how the west makes it's weapons. There is a reason they have stood by us for so long. There is a reason why Americans wanted the BLK52s to remain on a separate airbase. Pakistani pilots/technicians cans till share the pros and cons of the BLK52s with the Chinese. It's a very potent and superior technology to what most of their fleet has. Same with the Agosta 90B and it's MESMA AIP. French are leaders in this field along with Electric propulsion. So Pakistan was essentially a bridge for the technology to go from the west to the east. We are the only nation that operates Western weapons and Chinese weapons on such a large number. Add the Ukrainian Engines and Tanks, Brazilian MAR-1, Denel missiles, wallah, you've got everything covered.


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## Luftwaffe

Donatello said:


> That's where Pakistan helped them. Since the PAF/Pak Army/Navy operated western weapons for a long time, they were able to give insight to the Chinese on how to work and make machines like these. Not to mention the major chunk of our nuclear technology came from Europe/Canada/USA etc and we gladly shared with the Chinese. From F-16s to nuclear processing equipment. From AIM 9s to Matra 530s, Chinese were able to get a first hand account of how the west makes it's weapons. There is a reason they have stood by us for so long. There is a reason why Americans wanted the BLK52s to remain on a separate airbase. Pakistani pilots/technicians cans till share the pros and cons of the BLK52s with the Chinese. It's a very potent and superior technology to what most of their fleet has. Same with the Agosta 90B and it's MESMA AIP. French are leaders in this field along with Electric propulsion. So Pakistan was essentially a bridge for the technology to go from the west to the east. We are the only nation that operates Western weapons and Chinese weapons on such a large number. Add the Ukrainian Engines and Tanks, Brazilian MAR-1, Denel missiles, wallah, you've got everything covered.



So we shared and in return we get what? hmmm interesting can't even get money out of Chinese lol...those who write off loans of African nations and gaves alot of money to Argentina recently.


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## Donatello

Luftwaffe said:


> So we shared and in return we get what? hmmm interesting can't even get money out of Chinese lol...those who write off loans of African nations and gaves alot of money to Argentina recently.



In return you get what ever you wanted from China. Nuclear processing and fueling technology came from the west, but not the ballistic missiles. They came from North Korea (who happens to have China as it's ally) and China. China provided hundreds of millions worth of manufacturing equipment to SUPARCO/AWC/NDC etc to make those rocket motors for Shaheen I/II that we brag about. Once China got up to speed, they are self sufficient in nuclear technology. You got your Chashma Nuclear complex from them. Who do you think would have supplied the equipment for Khushab? Then you wanted a tailor made aircraft, you get JF-17. Chinese were more than happy to offer the SD-10 and for first time give Pakistan a potent BVR technology. Same thing with the upcoming submarines. They will have much Pakistani input and would be tailor made. Anti ship missiles, SAMs, Tanks. You name it. Mig 19 was J6, Mig 21 the F-7. You wanted superior F-7s? No problem, you got F-7PGs. There is no other country in the world that has received so many goodies from China.

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## Luftwaffe

Donatello said:


> In return you get what ever you wanted from China. Nuclear processing and fueling technology came from the west, but not the ballistic missiles. They came from North Korea (who happens to have China as it's ally) and China. China provided hundreds of millions worth of manufacturing equipment to SUPARCO/AWC/NDC etc to make those rocket motors for Shaheen I/II that we brag about. Once China got up to speed, they are self sufficient in nuclear technology. You got your Chashma Nuclear complex from them. Who do you think would have supplied the equipment for Khushab? Then you wanted a tailor made aircraft, you get JF-17. Chinese were more than happy to offer the SD-10 and for first time give Pakistan a potent BVR technology. Same thing with the upcoming submarines. They will have much Pakistani input and would be tailor made. Anti ship missiles, SAMs, Tanks. You name it. Mig 19 was J6, Mig 21 the F-7. You wanted superior F-7s? No problem, you got F-7PGs. There is no other country in the world that has received so many goodies from China.



Not at all we historically received nothing much in return for helping US for helping west for helping China to certain degree now don't say everything came from China otherwise indians would come with loud mouths over here Pakistan is not that dumb either they worked hard as well with limited funds let snot give complete credit to China.


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## Ijaz Ahmad Zarrar

saad445566 said:


> Originally posted by Araz.
> 
> "I am not sure whether a radical change in the system of education is required.* Text and content wise we are better than the western systems that we so envy. *However independant thinking needs to be inculcated and for that the teachers need to be trained.Every where in the world there are days set aside for teaching the trainers. Ever see that in Pakistan.
> Look I dont want to digress from the topic at hand. Please feel free to open a new thread and discuss the education needs separately. We can then shift the mails from this thread and continue there."
> Araz
> 
> 
> 
> I am a bit confused here. Which 'text and content' are you talking about? There are three parallel systems running in the glorious country. i.e. Imported one, local and Madrassa type. Now the first one, imported, you cannot say that it is better than the west because it is already imported from there. Local (Matriculation system) is not better than the west; therefore, individuals prefer to do O and A levels. Madrassa system is not even at par with the local education system let alone the western system. You know why I emphasized more on changing the education system at grass root level? Majority of our people cannot go to schools like LGS etc so they end up going to government schools. Should I tell you the condition of government schools? So, we have to think for the majority. Introduce new and effective system in government schools. Take the example of India, only one uniformed system. We should uplift our existing system so we don't have to import our education system. Wasn't it a failure when we introduced a western system? For me it was because it shows that we failed to develop a local system. Open community schools--Social justice! It is the right of poor people to get same level of education as rich do! Yaar, jis mulk mien 9 and 10 ka aik year alag exams aur next year aik sath exams hoon, what do you expect from that education system? A bit too much experiments, eh!
> 
> So, if we are able to give a good education to our kids at junior level, they will automatically thrive in universities. If universities will get a 'lot' of thinkers rather than ratu baz, universities will further flourish the abilities of young brats.
> 
> Defence budget has increased significantly, whereas, the education budget is at all time low--


Countries can't be run through such policies...


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## Ussaid

Well, from my experiences every government-level science, history or Pak studies book essentially escalates into an Islamiat book, thus giving a children a dangerous superiority conception which creates discrimination and eventually jihadits.


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## jamal18

Mugwop said:


> I spoke to a friend of mines in . He said if the education was taught in Urdu it would be more beneficial.





Hiptullha said:


> He wants us to focus on English instead of Urdu.
> Boy, those British really turned us into servile Brown sahibs, didn't they?



Every single country in europe educates its people in its own language, not one educates its people in English.

The successful economies of japan, korea, taiwan ,china and now Turkey educate their people in their own language, the only role of english is as a foreign language. If they can do it, why can't pakistan?

All these countries are ahead of pakistan by light years. Hanging on to english is simply a sign of your slave nature.

The chinese developed a nuclear bomb using chinese, the koreans are light years ahead of pakistan in nuclear technology, in Korean.

Many, many countries fly the F16.

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## Jit

Being from the same stock as Indians (mostly) I'd suspect Pakistanis can be as good in maths and science as their Indian cousins - may be the overly Islamic religious education combined with a fictional account of history is actively preventing the Pak children from learning


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## jamal18

Jit said:


> Being from the same stock as Indians (mostly) I'd suspect Pakistanis can be as good in maths and science as their Indian cousins - may be the overly Islamic religious education combined with a fictional account of history is actively preventing the Pak children from learning



History, fact or fictional, doesn't stop people from learning. Neither does a class or two in religion.

Yes, Pakistanis don't seem to understand the concept of 'objective' history.

In Britain, Indian students seem to outperform most other ethnic groups.


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## Jit

@jamal18...interesting. In the US there are a few patterns that I've been following related to this.

1. In schools where Chinese and Indian kids are enrolled in non trivial numbers, academics are dominated by these two. Music is dominated by Chines. Quizzes and debates are dominated by Jews followed closely by Indian girls! But Indian boys gravitate towards electronics and biomechanics while the Chinese boys and girls prefer medicine, period!

2. Pakistanis are Ofcourse a smaller population in affluent suburbs - but the handful of Pakistani kids I've seen part of these schools with large Indian and Chinese enrollments, these kids are absolutely very well rounded - they in addition to academics, also participate in sports , play music and do everything else that their Indian and Chinese mates do!

It breaks my heart every time I see these Pakistani kids suffer in shame whenever something awful is done in Pakistan and their friends express sympathy.

I remember a very erudite gentleman I play golf with say modern day Islam is the worst thing that happened to Muslims and Pakistan the worst to happen to Pakistanis! I used to dismiss as old man cynicism but I am beginning to believe it more and more.


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## jamal18

Jit said:


> @jamal18...interesting. In the US there are a few patterns that I've been following related to this.
> 
> 1. In schools where Chinese and Indian kids are enrolled in non trivial numbers, academics are dominated by these two. Music is dominated by Chines. Quizzes and debates are dominated by Jews followed closely by Indian girls! But Indian boys gravitate towards electronics and biomechanics while the Chinese boys and girls prefer medicine, period!
> 
> 2. Pakistanis are Ofcourse a smaller population in affluent suburbs - but the handful of Pakistani kids I've seen part of these schools with large Indian and Chinese enrollments, these kids are absolutely very well rounded - they in addition to academics, also *participate
> 
> * in sports , play music and do everything else that their Indian and Chinese mates do!
> 
> It breaks my heart every time I see these Pakistani kids suffer in shame whenever something awful is done in Pakistan and their friends express sympathy.
> 
> I remember a very erudite gentleman I play golf with say modern day Islam is the worst thing that happened to Muslims and Pakistan the worst to happen to Pakistanis! I used to dismiss as old man cynicism but I am beginning to believe it more and more.



I thought the chinese and koreans were very strong in the sciences in the US? Maybe that's first generation.
Pakistanis good at sports? LOL! It shows the effects of American culture. In my days us pakistanis were useless at sports, hindustanis are generally not physical people.

Both the Indians and the chinese have a very money orientated approach to study; they study the subjects with the highest incomes!


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## Jit

jamal18 said:


> I thought the chinese and koreans were very strong in the sciences in the US? Maybe that's first generation.
> Pakistanis good at sports? LOL! It shows the effects of American culture. In my days us pakistanis were useless at sports, hindustanis are generally not physical people.
> 
> Both the Indians and the chinese have a very money orientated approach to study; they study the subjects with the highest incomes!



The Koreans are totally integrated into America, better than Chinese an Indians. They don't stand out as a distinct group.

The 2nd and 3rd gen Indians are into non-money professions - journalism, NGOs, vizcom, ad mediA etc.


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## Hiptullha

Jit said:


> Being from the same stock as Indians (mostly) I'd suspect Pakistanis can be as good in maths and science as their Indian cousins - may be the overly Islamic religious education combined with a fictional account of history is actively preventing the Pak children from learning



No, this is rubbish. There is a cheating culture in Pakistani schools and millions are too poor or have no school to attend. All from the policies of democratic and secular leaders, mind you.


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## Jit

Hiptullha said:


> No, this is rubbish. There is a cheating culture in Pakistani schools and millions are too poor or have no school to attend. All from the policies of democratic and secular leaders, mind you.


you have not had any democratic or secular leaders ever in power ! military and clergy have always ruled either directly after a coup or indirectly as even right now. Is it any wonder even kids attending schools are taught rubbish, whether the school is a madrassah or a regula public school?

A simple example: your public school kids are taught with text books that say things like 'Pakistan was created long time ago by mhd bin qasim'! 'Hindus don't teach any good values to their children'...

Are these the kind of content that should be in school books?


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## Hiptullha

Jit said:


> you have not had any democratic or secular leaders ever in power ! military and clergy have always ruled either directly after a coup or indirectly as even right now. Is it any wonder even kids attending schools are taught rubbish, whether the school is a madrassah or a regula public school?



I'm not referring to the content in textbooks, but the fact that we have millions of children out of school right now because of parties like the ANP, PPP, and PML-N. 



Jit said:


> A simple example: your public school kids are taught with text books that say things like 'Pakistan was created long time ago by mhd bin qasim'! 'Hindus don't teach any good values to their children'...



Drivel. I studied O-level History only a year ago and never encountered anything derogatory towards Hindus. I do however, remember one phrase about Muhammad Bin Qasim founding Pakistan. Are you going to base your entire assessments on the Pakistani education system on a *HISTORY* course? I'd talk about how there's incredible pressure on children to get A*'s and how children need to memorize test answers word by word, or how the education hardly promotes critical thinking. History? Please.


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## Jit

Hiptullha said:


> I'm not referring to the content in textbooks, but the fact that we have millions of children out of school right now because of parties like the ANP, PPP, and PML-N.
> 
> 
> 
> Drivel. I studied O-level History only a year ago and never encountered anything derogatory towards Hindus. I do however, remember one phrase about Muhammad Bin Qasim founding Pakistan. Are you going to base your entire assessments on the Pakistani education system on a *HISTORY* course? I'd talk about how there's incredible pressure on children to get A*'s and how children need to memorize test answers word by word, or how the education hardly promotes critical thinking. History? Please.



may be you cut that class! you should watch this Pakistani television report - she quotes exact area, class, book and page.


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## A$HU

Jit said:


> you have not had any democratic or secular leaders ever in power ! military and clergy have always ruled either directly after a coup or indirectly as even right now. Is it any wonder even kids attending schools are taught rubbish, whether the school is a madrassah or a regula public school?
> 
> A simple example: your public school kids are taught with text books that say things like 'Pakistan was created long time ago by mhd bin qasim'! 'Hindus don't teach any good values to their children'...
> 
> Are these the kind of content that should be in school books?


On a completely another topic what is your ethnicity bro?


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## Paksanity

Jit said:


> you have not had any democratic or secular leaders ever in power ! military and clergy have always ruled either directly after a coup or indirectly as even right now. Is it any wonder even kids attending schools are taught rubbish, whether the school is a madrassah or a regula public school?
> 
> A simple example: your public school kids are taught with text books that say things like 'Pakistan was created long time ago by mhd bin qasim'! 'Hindus don't teach any good values to their children'...
> 
> Are these the kind of content that should be in school books?



I am fairly certain you have never gone through text books of Pakistan. There are no such things as you mentioned. Are we speaking from our perception, sir?

You mentioned learning History objectively. Out of curiosity, do American *text books *mention atrocities of European settlers to Red Indians, Black slaves conditions, and the fact that we drove out indigenous people for their land? I wonder?!


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## Jit

Paksanity said:


> I am fairly certain you have never gone through text books of Pakistan. There are no such things as you mentioned. Are we speaking from our perception, sir?
> 
> You mentioned learning History objectively. Out of curiosity, do American *text books *mention atrocities of European settlers to Red Indians, Black slaves conditions, and the fact that we drove out indigenous people for their land? I wonder?!



did you not see the video I posted of Pakistanis discussing how such erroneous and hatefillied material is in public school texts ...with page numbers? just click on the link in my earlier post


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## Hiptullha

Jit said:


> may be you cut that class! you should watch this Pakistani television report - she quotes exact area, class, book and page.



A YouTube video can hardly be considered evidence. I've studied from 3 textbooks during my O' Levels, one by Nigel Kelly, another by Nigel Smith, and the last by Farooq Naseem Bajwa, each one with hardly any bigotry towards Hindus.


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## Paksanity

I have been educated in Pakistani system. Will you believe me?


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## Hiptullha

Paksanity said:


> I have been educated in Pakistani system. Will you believe me?



Quiet, dirty "Arabized" Pakistani filth. Let the intelligent Indian tell you about your country.


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## Leader

*The Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa (K-P) government is planning to remove at least 50% of public school teachers over poor performance, but not before giving them a golden handshake.*

Additional Secretary for Education Qaiser Alam told _The Express Tribune_ the golden handshake is among the options under consideration to improve the standard of education in government-run schools.

“Under this policy, teachers will be able to retire in an honourable manner,” he added.







According to official data, the provincial government has spent Rs93 billion on the education department which has 125,000 teachers on its payroll. However, this has not brought the performance of government schools at par with private schools.

As a result, the current government is chalking out a strategy to separate the grain from the chaff and only induct qualified and dedicated personnel as teachers at state-run institutes.

*Through the NTS*

Under the new plan, all teachers currently employed by the department will be expected to take the National Testing Services (NTS) exam which will be arranged at a district level. This will serve as a litmus test whereby the government can select the right people for the right posts.

According to insiders, teachers will be expected to score at least 50% in the test. If they do not make the cut, they will be given a chance to seek retirement under the golden handshake policy, as per still unconfirmed plans.

Alam said a series of discussions and consultations regarding the plans in the education department are under way. However, the final decision will be taken by the K-P cabinet once the approval of PTI Chairman Imran Khan has been sought.

*Farewell to arms*

Political parties have voiced reservations over arming school teachers; a decision the provincial government first announced and later took a U-turn on.

Earlier, on Wednesday, Minister for Elementary and Secondary Education Muhammad Atif Khan denied that the government had allowed teachers to carry weapons. However, twice in January Minister for Information Mushtaq Ghani had been quoted as saying teachers would be allowed to carry licenced permits to school, where parent-teacher councils would monitor their use.

Even after the rebuttal, members of various political parties are shocked to find this was proposed as a strategy to enhance security at schools. They are of the view that weaponising schools will strengthen the existing gun culture in the province. According to political leaders, it is time to bid farewell to arms and keep children away from them.

“I don’t know how a child will be able to get education with an AK-47 in his teacher’s hands,” Awami National Party (ANP) Senator Baz Muhammad Khan said.

Baz Muhammad urged the K-P government to devise a strategy to overcome militancy rather than encourage every citizen to carry arms. “This will negatively impact the minds of young schoolchildren,” he said. “I want children to hold pens rather than brandish guns.”

Former K-P chief minister and Jamiat Ulema Islam (JUI-F) MPA Akram Khan Durrani pressed the government to consult all political parties before taking any further steps.

“People with nefarious minds could obtain arms licences and wreak havoc,” he said. “The government, and not its citizens, is responsible for protecting the public.”

Meanwhile, Qaumi Watan Party’s (QWP) Anisa Zeb Tahirkhili urged the government to focus on security of schools and issue licences to security guards. “Giving teachers guns will undermine the fact that a pen is mightier than a sword,” Tahirkhili said.

*Setting the record straight*

When asked, former minister of health Shaukat Yousafzai said the decision was being portrayed in a negative light. The provincial government has not allowed teachers to carry guns. However, he added that teachers will be issued licences if they approach the government.

brilliant... poor performance will result in termination of the service...

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## Kurlang

Interesting take. True also


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## Dubious

Education System Reform in Pakistan:
Why, When, and How?

*Mehnaz Aziz*
Children’s Global Network, Pakistan
*David E. Bloom*
Harvard School of Public Health and IZA
*Salal Humair*
Harvard School of Public Health
*Emmanuel Jimenez*
IEG, World Bank
*Larry Rosenberg*
Harvard School of Public Health
*Zeba Sathar*
Population Council, Pakistan
Policy Paper No. 76
*January 2014*


IZA
P.O. Box 7240
53072 Bonn
Germany
Phone: +49-228-3894-0
Fax: +49-228-3894-180
E-mail: iza@iza.org


*The IZA Policy Paper Series publishes work by IZA staff and network members with immediate
relevance for policymakers.* Any opinions and views on policy expressed are those of the author(s)
and not necessarily those of IZA.
*The papers often represent preliminary work and are circulated to encourage discussion.* Citation of
such a paper should account for its provisional character. A revised version may be available directly
from the corresponding author.

IZA Policy Paper No. 76
January 2014

ABSTRACT
*Education System Reform in Pakistan: Why, When, and How?*

Pakistan’s education system faces long-standing *problems in access, quality, and equal
opportunity at every leve*l: primary and secondary schools, higher education and vocational
education. In spite of recent encouraging trends, such as the rapid spread of private
schooling and an expansion of higher education opportunities, *systemic reform remains*
*stubbornly elusive*. The *inability of successive governments to reform the system has created*
*severe constraints for Pakistan’s economic and societal development.* An* inability to act now*
*will increase the problems manifold in the future, due to a burgeoning youth population and*
*increasing competitive pressures from other developing countries that are devoting more*
*attention to education.*
We discuss in this paper the imperative for education system reform in Pakistan, and
articulate why *a window of opportunity exists at this time for all stakeholders – government,
civil society and donors – to initiate reform*. We emphasize, however, *some key messages.*
One, that *reform must tackle all sectors of the education system* – primary/secondary, higher
education and vocational education – as *Pakistan does not have the luxury to delay reform in*
*one sector until the other sectors improve.* Two, *reform in every sector must be systemic –*
*i.e. with well-defined goals, focus on a minimal set of areas such as governance, financing,*
*human resources, and curriculum and address them all together, rather than piecemeal.*
Three, *implementation *is the all-important Achilles’ heel, where Pakistan has limited
resources and has often foundered on the rocks. But as we discuss, there are important
examples demonstrating that *success is achievable, if government and civil society have the
will to initiate and sustain reform.*


JEL Codes: I21, I25, I28, H52
Keywords: education, economic development, educational reform, Pakistan


Corresponding author:
David E. Bloom
*Department of Global Health and Population
Harvard School of Public Health*
665 Huntington Avenue
Building I 12th Floor, Suite 1202
Boston, MA 02115
USA

E-mail: dbloom@hsph.harvard.edu


Attached is the full 20+ pg report of the tragedy called EDUCATION IN PAKISTAN:

http://ftp.iza.org/pp76.pdf


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## VCheng

A girl's school in Landi Kotal, photo posted without any comment:

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## Masood Khan 1

biggest problem plaguing our system.


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## Gauss

philosophy, free from religious bias, and history, free from national bias should be introduced. these two go a long way in making an educated mind.

definition of educated mind:


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## Anna Scott

In Pakistan, only one Education system is necessary and after 18th amendment.. You give rights to provinces which is actually itself a big disaster because your nationalism will be killed.


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## surya kiran

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> A girl's school in Landi Kotal, photo posted without any comment:



Kudos to the lady teacher who is sitting and teaching there. Kudos to the parents of these girls who have sent them there. Especially, since this is FATA.

I think, one needs to appreciate the effort being put in at the ground level before passing or comparing a school with a western standard system. While, the picture is not the best case scenario the takeaway can be that, there needs to be an active involvement of the local population to further this. 

Does Pakistan have anything like a Panchayat, which can may be build a roof for these children during the rains? Or can the parents of these children contribute (not monetarily) to build a thatched roof these children?

The point I am trying to make is that, in rural areas, a school could be defined as a tree. What matters is, whether that tree is used to spread wisdom or not. I hope, you get my point.


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## VCheng

surya kiran said:


> Kudos to the lady teacher who is sitting and teaching there. Kudos to the parents of these girls who have sent them there. Especially, since this is FATA.
> 
> I think, one needs to appreciate the effort being put in at the ground level before passing or comparing a school with a western standard system. While, the picture is not the best case scenario the takeaway can be that, there needs to be an active involvement of the local population to further this.
> 
> Does Pakistan have anything like a Panchayat, which can may be build a roof for these children during the rains? Or can the parents of these children contribute (not monetarily) to build a thatched roof these children?
> 
> The point I am trying to make is that, in rural areas, a school could be defined as a tree. What matters is, whether that tree is used to spread wisdom or not. I hope, you get my point.



The dedication of the parents, the children and the teachers is not in doubt. They all value education highly. It is just that photo highlights just how all this desire and dedication is laid waste by those who are responsible for the education system.

If I were to advise the present government, I would ask them to give Imran Khan the Education portfolio and give him whatever he needs to reform this horrible situation.


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## Pakistan Patriots

we are develop some educational apps for kids to improve educational system. please review our Little Tree House apps and give us good suggestions.
Thanks.


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## Gauss




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## Shoaib Aziz

A very good thread indeed. I believe, the medium of instruction should be changed from English to Urdu ASAP. In my opinion, learning a new language alone is a difficult task, so learning something in a foreign tongue becomes even more difficult. Education in a foreign tongue also reduces the overall knowledge base of a community. For example, when an English man used words like frequency, inertia, polarity, potential etc. he has a preconception of the implications of such words and it is thus easier for one to understand and remember the scientific context of such terms.


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## ghazi52

...........................................................................................................

Graduation Day in Islamabad‏




....


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## Edevelop




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## Edevelop




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## Edevelop




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## rome

hi sorry to ask ( i wanted to start a new thread but i cant as i haven't completed a certain number of posts .....

what does " bua-ji " mean 
and 
"mian saheb " ??

many thanks in advance


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## Max

rome said:


> "mian saheb




Nawaz Sharif's tribal name or i should say caste name is "Mian" and Saheb Mean "Mr."... btw some wives also use word "mian" for there husbands 



rome said:


> bua-ji




Its hindi word not urdu word... its means aunty (Father's sister)


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## rome

mkn_91 said:


> Nawaz Sharif's tribal name or i should say caste name is "Mian" and Saheb Mean "Mr."... btw some wives also use word "mian" for there husbands
> Its hindi word not urdu word... its means aunty (Father's sister)



HI mkn_91 - many thanks for your help, i appreciate it !.....i am v interested in learning to speak urdu-hindi ...... 

by the way I first heard the word "bua-ji" on the pakistan tv serial 
" Isqa-waay " ... so perhaps you might say it is a hindi word but has been incorporated into usage in the urdu or punjabi languages ?

thanks in advance for all of your responses


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## Max

rome said:


> by the way I first heard the word "bua-ji" on the pakistan tv serial
> " Isqa-waay "



Maybe they have used that word due to Bollywood influence but its not the word which we Pakistani use for "Father's sister"

We Say Phupho Jan in Urdu... not Bua Ji... not even 0.000001 use that Bua ji in Pakistan...

its only limited to few looser who spend there whole life out of Pakistan and suddenly start direction and production with no sense of language... i recommend u to watch Drama called Mera Sultan... though its Turkish serial but the urdu voice over is fantastic..its easily available on Internet... otherwise search for PTV dramas of 80's and 90's if u want to hear real Urdu... today's generation of directors and producers doesn't give too hoots about language... there one sentence start from Urdu in-between they use English and end on Punjabi  it was not like that in old era.. though i am not that much old but my percents told me these thing, i personally dont have interest in serials... 



rome said:


> so perhaps you might say it is a hindi word but has been incorporated into usage in the urdu or punjabi languages ?




Yes you are right here..

btw post u queries here Pakistani corner

this thrad is not appropriate for ur Questions


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## Will Strout

I wish that Pakistan could have a good educational system alike in the other parts of the world. Education is one of the human rights and every one should get it in order to the spread peace all over the country. My opinion is that the system should be improved to provide education to boys and girls in an equal manner.


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## Hypatia

Making it secular/pluralistic should be the first priority.
Removing Islamiat as a compulsory subject.
Islamisation as a result of Zia Regime needs to be reversed ASAP

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## Zibago

Hypatia said:


> Making it secular/pluralistic should be the first priority.
> Removing Islamiat as a compulsory subject.
> Islamisation as a result of Zia Regime needs to be reversed ASAP


Muft kay number hotay hain rehnay do 
@Moonlight @EAK @unleashed

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## Moonlight

Zibago said:


> Muft kay number hotay hain rehnay do
> @Moonlight @EAK @unleashed



Hain Na Urdu or Islamic studies. Free #s.  

Wase bhi Islamic studies shouldn't be taken out of the syllabus. We don't want more distance from Islamic studies for this and upcoming generation.


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## Hypatia

Moonlight said:


> Hain Na Urdu or Islamic studies. Free #s.
> 
> Wase bhi Islamic studies shouldn't be taken out of the syllabus. We don't want more distance from Islamic studies for this and upcoming generation.





Zibago said:


> Muft kay number hotay hain rehnay do
> @Moonlight @EAK @unleashed


It can still be an elective subject but making a religious dogma a compulsory Academic subject which is taught to even the the youngest of students is by definition Fascist and amounts to indoctrination.


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## Zibago

Moonlight said:


> Hain Na Urdu or Islamic studies. Free #s.
> 
> Wase bhi Islamic studies shouldn't be taken out of the syllabus. We don't want more distance from Islamic studies for this and upcoming generation.





Hypatia said:


> It can still be an elective subject but making a religious dogma a compulsory Academic subject which is taught to even the the youngest of students is by definition Fascist and amounts to indoctrination.


Ab kis aunty ki baat mani jaye hmm


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## Jokingjustice

good reading


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## SekrutYakhni

Pakistan has literally *14 days* left and after it is gonna disintegrate pretty fast. Just like last time we said earthquakes and it came - This time it'll be a sweet combo of many different things. And just to make it easier for you - Drought is gonna come and not go for many years.

14 days to put Nawaz, Zardari, Musharaf and their family in jail - Start the process of getting their money back and later hang them together.

If it does not happen in the next *14 days* - We will take off our support and this time for real and you'll be hit by many natural calamities - Divide and rule pump elite gonna finish the agenda of subversion and your state is gonna disintegrate.

We did not need you. You needed us. And the next 14 days if you don't follow this and we are serious - Move out of your country if you can or get ready to be - .


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## SekrutYakhni

India is going down. 

Biblical events will be like a child in a park.

Get ready.


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## VCheng

Tripoli said:


> @Syed.Ali.Haider
> This is just a amateur proposition of course.
> 
> An NGO , dedicated to building schools and hiring qualified teachers for said schools, could be founded. The NGO would obviously be funded by private citizens and managed transparently by private citizens. Pakistanis are already one of the
> most generous people when it comes to donations for humanitarian purposes ,so as far as funding is concerned it can be secured.
> 
> If such an NGO can truly spread throughout the country then in a few decades it could create a new batch of educated young citizens who could then choose the right leaders or even become leaders themselves thus improving the
> countries institutions. Eventually there won't be a need for such an NGO as the system would heal itself.
> The system needs to be kick-started somehow.
> 
> This would be a slow process but it is better than doing nothing.



I actually proposed Imran Khan as the leader of such an organization and campaign as you suggested quite a while ago. It is a pity he chose a different pathway. He could have made a huge difference to Pakistan's future.

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## VCheng

Tripoli said:


> Why do you think he didn't do so? He is a visionary after all. The same man who established the Shaukat Khanm Hospital. I am sure it must have occurred to him at some point.



I will leave others here to discuss that. In my view he still remains the best person in Pakistan to improve education just like he did oncologic healthcare. IF he wants to do it.

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## Major d1

Pakistan's education system faces long-standing problems in access, quality, and equal .... Moreover, the challenges to Pakistan's education system are about to multiply, given that the number of young people is ..... only on parts of the system.


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## Imran Rahman Laghari

ok


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## ahsanhaider

Sikh girl documentary who topped Pakistan matric Exams


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## SekrutYakhni

*The ONLY real religion is Islam.*

Since we are that close to Qiyamah - Make a wise choice.

Don't complain later 

Get ready!


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## Noman Sherdil

Pakistan 's education system has alot of flaws. There are many different education system working Pakistan. In my opinion we must have one education system in the entire country


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## ghazi52




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## Saba Ali Malik

Educational system is the basic pillar for any society. and our budget assigned to education is such a low percentage.I feel our government should focus more on education.Educated nations can flourish !


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## mdcp

Our education system is very poor and it will divide nation in future. There should be unified education for all and no different categories. But our leaders are corrupt and our public is just blind followers and sleeping. We need to create awareness in society. The syllabus should be islamic and modern sciences comparable to best top 10 counties in world.


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## Arsala.nKhan

*Inconsistent policies blamed for most educational challenges*
*December 23, 2016
Print : Islamabad

Islamabad

Pakistan has a number of challenges in the field of education mostly due to the inconsistent policies of the past and frequent change of governments.

This was stated by State Minister for Federal Education and Professional Training Muhammad Balighur Rehman during a conference on National Education System 2016 at the National University of Modern Languages (NUML) on Thursday.

The event was organised in collaboration with Islamic International University at NUML.

The minister commended NUML Rector Maj Gen (r) Ziauddin Najam and his team for conducting such an important conference on educational system in Pakistan.

He said such conferences not only provided a platform to educationists and academicians but also gave guidance to government and policymakers.

"We are the sixth largest population of the world but unfortunately we rank among the lowest in terms of education," he said.

The minister said the country had number of challenges in the field of education and things could not get improved in the last de
cade due to inconsistent policies and change of governments.

"However, the situation is improving. We are hopeful that it will further improve in near future," he said.

The minister said unfortunately, 24 million children were out of schools that was quite disgraceful but what shouldn't be forgotten that the number was 26 million in 2013 when the current government was formed.

"The school dropout rate has come down; provincial educational budgets have increased; literacy rate has improved, and HEC budget has increased to more than double. And due to increase in tax to GDP rate and increase in GDP, we have got more fiscal space to spend on education," he said.

The minister said the country needed more scholars for applied research.

"It is time that we start investing in this area," he said.

The minister said the concept of smart schools should be introduced in the country and everyone should work for it.

He also talked about the National Education Policy 2016, National Curriculum Framework, Early Childhood Education Development and Technical and Vocational Training. 
*

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## niaz

In my humble opinion, the fault lies in the attitude of the polity in general. Especially since the Zia era, bigotry and forcing your opinions on others through brute force has created a claustrophobic environment which chokes out original thought. People are afraid to express their opinions because and even the unintentional use of words which could be misinterpreted by the bigots can be life threatening. As happened in the recent case of Imran Khan.

Salman Taseer never insulted our holy Prophet (PBUH) but the mere fact that he was against the blasphemy law cost him his life with his cold blooded killer revered as a saint. I have heard Imran Khan’s speech but I couldn’t find Imran committing blasphemy, nevertheless he had to apologize otherwise another bird-brain Mumtaz Qadri would have killed him earning sainthood in the process.

Isn't this intolerance direct result of the madrassah education?

According to the World Bank Statistics until the early 80’s ( before the bigot Zia could enforce his bigotry) average Pakistani enjoyed higher standard of living than an average Indian.

Using the globally accepted Purchasing Power Parity or PPP method to analyze and compare the per-capita income of various nations, reports prepared by the World Bank found that every Indian earns around USD 5,630, while a Pakistani earns around USD 5,090. A closer look at the statistical evidence provided in these WB reports reveals that one U.S. dollar is equal Pakistani Rupees 104.56, an Indian earns 54,000 Pakistani rupees more than his Pakistani counterpart.

According to a 2013 report

Quote

India’s Muslims have the lowest living standard in the country on a per capita basis, according to a government survey. Muslims, who account for about 14.4 percent of India’s vast population, according to data from Pew Research, spend, on average, only 32.7 Rupees ($0.52) per day. At the other end of the wealth spectrum, on average, India’s tiny minority of Sikhs spend 55.3 Rupees per day. Christians (51.4 Rupees) and Hindus (37.5 Rupees) fall somewhere in between.

"The average monthly per capita expenditure (MPCE) of a Sikh household was [1,659 Rupees] while that for a Muslim household was [980 Rupees] in 2009-10," said a study by the government’s National Sample Survey Office (NSSO) called “Employment and Unemployment Situation Among Major Religious Groups in India.” The average MPCE for Hindus and Christians amounted to 1,125 Rupees and 1,543 Rupees, respectively. The Times of India explained that average household MPCE serves as a proxy for income and the living standards of an Indian family.

The survey also suggested that urban Indians (MPCE of 1773 Rupees) were almost twice as wealthy as their rural counterparts (901 Rupees). Even in India’s vast rural hinterlands, Muslims ranked at the bottom in terms of spending and wealth, while Sikhs had the most disposable income. (Again, Hindus and Christians fell somewhere in between). The same hierarchy was seen in urban regions – with Sikhs at the top, with an average MPCE of 2,180. On the whole, the average MPCE for all Indians amounted to 1,128 Rupees.


http://www.ibtimes.com/surprise-sur...oorest-worst-educated-religious-group-1392849

Unquote.


Application of Ijtehad, Ijma (consensus) and Qiyas ( reasoning), the tools provided to the Umma to keep up with the changing world are totally ignored by the self appointed theologians; and those who oppose this view such as Maulana Ghamdi are hounded out of the country. This has choked off scholarship and research resulting in declining education standards. On the other hand, instead of us becoming 'Sadiq & Amin'; persons convicted of forged degrees are being re-elected by the voters with suicide bombers (described as Sin) are being told that they are going straight to heaven. Teachers of 'Ghost' schools have no fear because they offer daily prayers & can perform Hajj from the salary earned without ever delivering a lecture.

It appears that while there is too much stress on the rituals, the spirit of Islam represented by honesty, compassion & kindness displayed by our holy Prophet (PBUH) has disappeared altogether.

Education has become a business, entire polity ( Gov't & the people) accept it. But what do I know? Munawar Hasan, Sami ul Haq & Pir Sahib Qadri know all there is to know about how Pakistanis should be educated.


The following article expresses the situation of Muslims in South Asia much better I possibly can 

*The deepening crisis of scholarship*


*By Harris Khalique*

January 04, 2017

*Part - III*

*Side-effect*

So what does this deepening crisis of scholarship mean for us as a people – South Asian Muslims – in our daily lives and social experience while living within South Asian countries or as diaspora elsewhere?

The absence of a critical mass of scientists, social scientists, historians and scholars means weak generation and impartation of knowledge, a lack of a sense of history and an incredibly small number of formidable thought leaders who can encourage people to question their preconceived notions. Meaning thereby that our individual and collective psyche, which not only determine our actions and reactions but are beginning to define us as people, are guided by three things – prejudice, isolation and rage.

A significant number of South Asian Muslim women and men are among the most prejudiced people I have come across. Let me accept that there are other communities of people in the world whose majority may well be equally prejudiced but, one, I am naturally more interested in my own lot, and, two, the alarming thing about our people is that their prejudice is on the rise. They have strange ideas and understanding about people of other nations and faiths.

In Pakistan, one can understand that due to a certain kind of homogeneity in terms of belief and a lack of exposure to other faiths and peoples. But you would find almost similar, if not the same, ideas about others being subscribed to by most South Asian Muslims – particularly those living in the diaspora. Spending time with other people and communities at schools, workplaces or public areas, and exposure to different lifestyles and behaviours have not helped our people to the extent that they should have.

Undoubtedly, Pakistan is the worst among all in that sense and the Pakistani diaspora is even more prejudiced and hardnosed when it comes to understanding or dealing with any kind of difference. But you would find the same patterns of attitude and behaviour among Bangladeshi and Indian Muslims. Indian Muslims are perhaps marginally better off, one reason them being a minority and the other being exposed to a completely different faith like Hinduism or other religions like Christianity and Sikhism since their childhood.

But in South Asian Muslim societies or communities overall, there is this increasing prejudice against everyone who is different from them. This is based either on ignorance of how other individuals and societies think and behave or due to a paranoia that is partly their own failing and partly imposed upon them by this new wave of Western politics based on imperial hegemony.

However, for whatever reasons and doings of your own or others, if you have cultivated inherent universal prejudice against all those who look different, speak differently, pray differently or do not pray at all, you will be blinded to the possibilities of finding companions, friends, allies and partners in other communities. That leads you to the impossibility of a dialogue with anyone who is or seems different, and a stasis in any kind of understanding of a collective human society, culture and civilisation.

The prejudice against others is rooted in the certitude that what we believe in and practise makes us not only superior to others but that we are the only ones who are on the right path in this world. This self-righteousness does not stop at the level of religion but takes us down to the level of sects, sub-sects, schools of thought within sects and sub-sects, and even to a very narrow interpretation by a particular institution or individual in some cases.

When I was in Delhi a few years ago for a conference at the Jamia Millia Islamia, a postgraduate student was delegated the responsibility of guiding me around the city. After my session at the conference, since I knew a little bit about Delhi from before, I took an auto rickshaw on my own and went straight to Dargah Nizamuddin to pay my respect to Ghalib, Amir Khusro and, finally of course, Hazrat Nizamuddin Aulia.

When I met that young man again, he expressed displeasure over my going to the dargah since it was a wrong practice. According to him, I should have visited the Tableeghi Jamaat’s markaz instead which has been opened very close to the dargah and where he could have taken me to meet some scholar. Then a few non-Muslim women students at the Jamia, whom I met when speaking to a class the next day, told me that some of their Muslim class fellows do not engage with them at all.

In 2015, when I spent some months at the University of Iowa in the US I also travelled and met many Pakistanis. The general nature and composition of Pakistani diaspora in North America is different from the one in the UK and Europe. There are many more educated professionals in the US than in the UK. I had thought they would be different from the people I had come across in the UK in terms of their knowledge and understanding, view of the world and openness to new ideas and opinions.

Unfortunately, there was very little difference. For instance, one whole evening at an educated Pakistani household was spent on why ‘Khuda Hafiz’ must not be used as a pleasantry by Muslims and why Afghans and Iranians are misled because they still do that. There was also discussion on children must be discouraged to hold the fork in the left hand when using a knife and fork to eat. To my surprise, I met very few American Pakistanis who had even a single non-Pakistani or a non-Muslim friend. A Pakistani woman told me that she would not like her children to mingle with non-Muslims, eat their food or go to their parties.

One may argue that personal anecdotes should not be generalised and of course not everyone thinks the same way. But when you see how the youth is being radicalised across South Asian Muslim societies and communities and how we face isolation within the comity of nations and within the global human society as a whole, these anecdotes are not isolated incidents but show us a pattern of how ignorance is on the rise.

South Asian Muslims are bringing isolation upon themselves. But what to do when we have religio-political leaders with limited intellect and a lack of sense of their times; such leaders tell cheering supporters in Pakistan that Muslim countries should shun the UN and create their own union. Sirajul Haq conveniently ignores the fact that his Jamaat-e-Islami has always enjoyed a special relationship with those Middle Eastern Muslim countries that are now flying planes to Tel Aviv and boosting their trade ties with the rest of the world. But the abstract South Asian Muslim desire to create a Pan-Islamist movement fails to fade away even after it is obvious that no one else is interested.

The insistence of segregation within the larger world has a bearing on the South Asian Muslim mind, our children and young people. We are producing uninformed, myopic, socially inept and confused generations. Some simplify their existence by espousing extremist views or joining outfits professing these views. But most live in confusion because not only does the world move at its own pace, but three quarters of the world practise faiths or believe in ideologies which are different from our own. Even within our faith, there are sects which in our minds pose us more danger than outsiders.

Therefore, the prejudices we have cultivated and the isolation we have imposed upon ourselves continue to enrage us. We are angry. We are unhappy. Without seeking knowledge and scholarship, nurturing of minds that question and challenge and developing an attitude for understanding and dialogue, we are heading towards total destruction.


Concluded

The writer is a poet and author based in Islamabad.

Email: harris.khalique@gmail.com
https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/176556-The-deepening-crisis-of-scholarship

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## imama.n

Alhumdulilah ab kafi had tk education system change ho jai, ab tu govt school k bachai bhi acha result detai hain, Allah hmrai mulk k nezam-e-taleem ko isitrha behtr krai (ameen).


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## Mevechan

Reform starts from the people imparting the knowledge, from having a comfortable student to teacher ratio, quality and well balanced curriculum along with a tier of progression. There is zero uniformity in the primary and secondary education sector in Pakistan. 

Start from the top, focus on the professionals, then give the professionals quality tools, adequate facilities and a decent salary and these professionals will ensure that knowledge is imparted, retained and children enter to learn and leave to serve.

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## Signalian

Pakistan's Private-schooling educational system produces one of the best students in the world.

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## Solomon2

Signalian said:


> Pakistan's Private-schooling educational system produces one of the best students in the world.










...I remember putting the same question to my grandmother some three decades ago. Her answer was comprehensive and inclusive, embracing diversity in religion and culture. She said that private education was a privilege that most middle class parents want to provide to their children, and missionary schools provide quality education at an affordable price, being 30% to 40% cheaper than most other independent private schools. She also insisted that many sought a spiritual grounding alongside academic education for their children, and missionary schools are an answer to that...

...Some 20-years-ago, I moved from Pakistan, with a very myopic view of Islam, where I was taught that only I was right or that the view of Islam taught in Pakistan was right. I was ready to judge others at the drop of a hat. However, I feel that my children have a very wide, accepting and non-judgmental view of Islam. In fact, their teachings at a Catholic school has made them closer to their own faith, and has also taught them respect and tolerance of others’ faith...​


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## niaz

A worthwhile read from a hero of Pakistan.

*Muslims and science*

_Random thoughts_

Almost two decades ago, a large number of Muslim scientists and engineers were invited at the World Muslim Conference in Islamabad. The moving spirit behind this initiative was Senator Raja Zafarul, secretary general of the Muslim conference. He has the future of Muslims as his top priority and has always been active in trying to evolve a joint mechanism for their common goal. Unfortunately, due to lack of interest by the governments of Islamic countries, no substantial progress has been made. Only Pakistan, Turkey, Malaysia and Indonesia have been able to make some progress. By becoming a nuclear and missile power, Pakistan earned a respectful place in the comity of Muslim nations.

My own experiences have convinced me that if we wish to be among the respected countries of the world, we will have to excel in the fields of science and technology – the two agents of change and respect. I am also convinced that if we wish to defend ourselves from the injustices of the advanced world, we will have to equip ourselves with the weapons of the latest research and development that are the vanguards of a powerful society. I also believe that if we wish to cure our misery-stricken Ummah from the curses of hunger, disease and exploitation, the path of science and technology is our only way out. These two instruments alone can lead us to a better future.

Science, it is said, was born from man’s curiosity to know about the nature of things around him and to understand the events that were taking place in the universe. While this curiosity is natural to mankind, it is made stronger among Muslims by their religion, which repeatedly exhorts them to ‘think’ and ‘reflect’ and try to comprehend the wonders and secrets of the cosmos and of biological existence.

The Quran places great emphasis on individual and collective research. It gives great importance to ‘men of understanding’ – scientists and engineers – whom it frequently refers to as ‘men who are wise’, ‘people of knowledge’, ‘the ones who consider’ and ‘those who understand’. No wonder Islam’s inspiration for scientific investigation served as a catalyst for the Muslim spirit of enquiry in the heyday of their civilisation. They made revolutionary contributions to scientific thought and activity at a time when the pursuit of science was considered taboo and punished like witchcraft elsewhere in the world. This contribution is fairly well-documented and well recognised. It is widely known that from the eighth to the 12th centuries, Muslims laid the foundations of ‘observational’ and ‘experimental’ techniques.

But there is such a stark contrast between our past and present. Those who liberated the human mind and taught men to think rationally and scientifically have now become prisoners of suffocating inaction. Those who led the world in the Middle Ages now lag way behind in following the lead in the modern age. They have few scientific institutions. They invest little in scientific research and their share in the growth of modern science and technology is dismal.

It is sad to note that while the Muslim Ummah constitutes one-fifth of the world population – it is larger than the populations of the US, Western Europe and Japan put together – its scientific community is not even mentionable when compared to that of these advanced countries. According to estimates made at the Islamic Conference held in Islamabad in 1983, the Muslim Ummah as a whole only had a total of about 46,000 research and development scientists and engineers.

At present, the science and technology manpower of Muslims in the world is estimated to be around 8 million – the lowest in the world. A recent study reveals that there are only 50,000 scientists and engineers in all the Muslim countries combined compared to 40,000 in Israel alone and 500,000 in Japan. Today, almost 94 percent of all research and development scientists are in the developed countries: there are 3,000 scientists for every one million people. In the Muslim world, this figure is less than 100 per million. Today the Muslim world only has one scientist for every 1,000 people while the former USSR has 100, Western Europe 50 and the world average is four.

Out of the approximately 100,000 scientific books and over two million articles produced in the world every year, the share of all Muslim countries put together is only about 1,000 publications. The lack of importance given to science and technology is further illustrated by the amount of money allocated to this vital field. We do not even spend one percent of our budget on science and technology while the advanced nations spend about five to seven percent.

Against this backdrop of apathy and indifference, it is satisfying to note that the importance of science and technology is gaining appreciation in many Muslim countries. Change is happening but needs to be greatly expedited. We possess an unlimited pool of human and material resources. Muslim countries supply 40 percent of the world’s raw materials, 60 percent of crude oil, 40 percent of natural gas, 80 percent of rubber and 75 percent of jute. However, despite such precious wealth, we still take a back seat when it comes to sharing the benefits.

Let us face these problems head on. Let us join hands for a better tomorrow by mutual cooperation and collaboration. Let us supplement each other’s efforts in promoting a science-friendly environment in our individual countries. This demands a firm commitment on the part of our respective governments.

We must give priority to putting our science and technology house in order. We need to frame our national science and technology policy and avoid duplication and wastage of valuable resources. We must give priority to scientists, researchers and engineers while framing policies as only a technical mind can comprehend the technical intricacies of a problem.

We also need to restructure our basic and higher educational systems as these lack the capability of meeting the demands of our time. An all-out effort should be made to acquire the maximum level of literacy. It is my belief that a joint front for our development will enable us to carve out a better world for our future generations.



Email: dr.a.quadeer.khan@gmail.com
https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/197653-Muslims-and-science

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## Solomon2

niaz said:


> It is sad to note that while the Muslim Ummah constitutes one-fifth of the world population – it is larger than the populations of the US, Western Europe and Japan put together – its scientific community is not even mentionable when compared to that of these advanced countries.


"The campus has three mosques with a fourth one planned, but no bookstore. No Pakistani university, including QAU, allowed Abdus Salam to set foot on its campus, although he had received the Nobel Prize in 1979 for his role in formulating the standard model of particle physics."​_
see_ What Might be Missing in the Muslim World?

@WaLeEdK2 @I.R.A @Kambojaric @Anubis @Avicenna @Sky lord @Super Falcon @SecularNationalist

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## SecularNationalist

Solomon2 said:


> "The campus has three mosques with a fourth one planned, but no bookstore. No Pakistani university, including QAU, allowed Abdus Salam to set foot on its campus, although he had received the Nobel Prize in 1979 for his role in formulating the standard model of particle physics."​_
> see_ What Might be Missing in the Muslim World?
> 
> @WaLeEdK2 @I.R.A @Kambojaric @Anubis @Avicenna @Sky lord @Super Falcon @SecularNationalist


Well i am repeating one more time as long as hardcore extremist elements with zia ul haq mindset exist in our country our future is not so bright.
Separation of state and religion is a must.

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## Gentelman

*PMLN Ate 60% of HEC budget for year 2016-17 again*
*
Sunday, July 2, 2017*





*Multan: Minister for Planning Development and Reforms, Ahsan Iqbal* who is from ruling party, *PMLN*, just a month ago on May, 30th hinted a rise for cash starved *HEC*. He announced this while addressing to National Consultative Conference on *HEC* vision 2025. He did golden promises of increasing *HEC* budget from Rs-/21.48 Billion in 2016-17 (That ended this June 30th) to Rs-/50 Billion. 
HEC current budget in year 2017-18 is Rs-/35.5 Billion. According to *Ahsan Iqbal*, *PMLN* entrusted *HEC* with every single penny and *HEC authorities* were free to spend that fund in the right direction. HEC initiated many new programs including Intra University Olympics to promote sportsmanship, training ERP to 100,000 students, *Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif *disbursements for laptops, *US-Pakistan Knowledge Corridor* and establishing multiple sub campuses of universities.
According to *Ahsan Iqbal*, current *government of PMLN* prioritizes education in Pakistan. *Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif* himself is taking interest in making Pakistan great through education and working on Youth’s leadership skills.
Despite all these claims by the ruling party of PMLN, education in Pakistan is facing a constant downfall owning to the poor policies and constantly slashing of funds.
Recently they government failed to provide HEC with the allocated funds in the last facial year of 2016-17. The government didn’t even provide 50% of the decided budget which affected *Higher Education Commission (HEC)* pretty badly.
According to the released figures, out of allocated Rs-/21.8 Billion, only Rs-/8 Billions were released. Data shows that only Rs-/4.29 Billion were provided to HEC in first quarter and Rs-/3.68 during the second quarter. HEC was utterly neglected during the 3rd and 4th quarter. The remaining Rs-/11.73 billion were not released by government to HEC according to HEC’s Public Sector Development Program (PSDP) funds.
This hold on funds has already started putting harmful effects on several ongoing projects. The PM, *Nawaz Sharif *was done after some publicity and *inauguration ceremonies* of new university campuses, but no work was ever started because of recent slashing of *HEC development funds*.




PM announced *universities* and their *sub campuses* in each *district of Pakistan* in 2014 but time proved it to be just another pump and show and false promise. The designing of this program was planned and was in final stages. Universities were taken on board and work was about to commence when the government realized there was a better use of those funds which were to be invested on *future of Pakistan*. This non serious behavior of government disappointed many *educationists* and HEC officials now find it difficult to completely execute this project.
The *US-Pak Knowledge Corridor* program initiated by HEC and announced by Ahsan Iqbal in June, 2015. This program is to increase PhD’s and send as many as 10,000 students to complete their *doctorate* in *United States*. This budget cut hasn’t just affected *HEC capability* to carry on this project but also HEC's and Pakistan's reputation in *international community*. Similarly the ongoing plan to train 5,000 general graduates also has been stopped due to non availability of finances.
PSPD documents show that there were 122 projects, 83 ongoing and 23 new and all these projects are in uncertainty. Some new projects have been cancelled and HEC is struggling to continue with the on going projects too.
The current *government of PMLN* is not showing seriousness for education and playing with the future of this country’s Youth. The government is using up this fund allocated for the future of Pakistan for their own *uncontrolled expenditures* led my misguided priorities. Pakistani Youth’s future is in *jeopardy* and uncertainty due to poor planningand lack of seriousness by PMLN.

http://www.sensationsx.com/2017/07/promised-not-fulfilled-hec-budget-sees.html?m=1


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## Trisonics

THESE days Pakistan’s professors are too busy to read books because they use their time publishing what are called ‘research’ papers and procuring PhD degrees for their students. For example, a world record of sorts was set last month by the Faculty of Management Sciences at the International Islamic University when five PhD degrees were awarded in quick succession in areas ranging from finance to psychology — all under the supervision of one person who had received a PhD from a local university (MAJU) five years ago.

Meanwhile, teaching standards continue to plummet. In the so-called hard sciences — math, physics, chemistry and engineering — this fact stares you in the face. Student performance indicators in these subjects tell of a train wreck. *The best US science and engineering schools have graduate departments teeming with Chinese and Indian students but Pakistanis are a rarity. Most Pakistanis do poorly in the GRE tests required for admission.*

Exceptionally talented students are, of course, smart enough to learn anything on their own anywhere. But the rest may equally well have stayed at home. Their professors have impressive degrees but poor subject knowledge and hence are poor teachers. That’s because the teachers who taught these teachers were also this way.

Our universities need to be reoriented towards teaching and moved away from so-called research.

*This has a historical backdrop. Relative to India, for political and cultural reasons, the areas that currently constitute Pakistan were educationally backward. In 1947, Pakistan had only one university and just a few colleges. It lost its best faculty members, who were mostly Hindus, to the subsequent migration. Pakistan has no significant academic tradition to look back to.*

Nevertheless, like other post-colonial states, Pakistan slowly cobbled together a modern university system. Although standards were generally low, there were occasional pockets of excellence. In 1973, when I joined Islamabad University (later renamed Quaid-i-Azam University) as a junior lecturer, some departments were comparable to those at a middle-level American university. Although few PhDs were awarded annually and research publications were rare, the graph pointed upwards.

A major setback happened in 2002 when, in a bid to boost research and production of PhD degrees, the Higher Education Commission hooked the promotion, pay, and perks of university teachers to the number of research papers they published. Teaching became irrelevant. Your salary was the same whether you taught brilliantly or badly, or how well you knew your subject.

Here’s how much productivity boomed: back in 1970-1980, along with 15-20 years of experience, one needed 12 papers to become a full professor. It was then considered a dauntingly high number. Many of my colleagues crossed the retirement age of 60 without being promoted. They were the decent, principled ones who read books.

But once people became aware of a huge pot of money out there, the old system and its ethics disappeared. No one raises an eyebrow today when a student at the same university publishes 10-15 papers or more during the course of his PhD studies. Academic crime was made highly lucrative by HEC’s new conditions.

*Like drug gangs in Chicago, a medley of Cosa Nostra style families now controls much of Pakistani academia. Each mafia family boss is at least an associate professor, if not full professor. He has a defined territory, avoids fighting other bosses, and plays the patronage game expertly. Sometimes he has an underboss (chota) who supervises the factory labour, meaning PhD and MPhil students. The factory outputs fakeries that resemble actual research so disguised that you don’t get caught.*

The impact on genuine academics — the ones who maintain professional standards and refuse to lie or cheat — has been devastating. In particular, many young ones lose heart when incompetent colleagues race ahead in promotions, receive wads of cash for publishing junk papers, rise to top administrative positions, and be nominated for national awards and prizes.

This scam is privately acknowledged by those connected to university education in Pakistan. I am told that HEC now regrets its 2002 policy but is paralysed by fear of the powerful Mafiosi that includes many university vice chancellors, deans, department heads, senior and junior professors, PhD students, members of HEC, academies of science, learned bodies, and winners of national awards. Some chair committees and make hiring-firing decisions, making sure that no one can rock the boat.

This crime syndicate cannot be dismantled by rewarding teaching competence instead of paper productivity. Judging even one individual’s teaching quality within a single department of a single university is difficult. Preferences based upon religion, sect, ethnicity, and friendships would make such selections meaningless and create new groupings. Similarly, determining who is fit to teach at the university level is controversial. Surely one size cannot fit all. From field to field, and place to place, the answers can be quite different.

But even if there is no perfect answer the bottom line is indisputable: a professor cannot teach what he doesn’t know and has no interest in. There has to be some system for weeding out those utterly unfit to teach.

Whereas ‘knowing’ is not easily defined in areas like anthropology or psychology, minimum (or base) competencies in the hard sciences are determinable. One could exploit the fact that there are plenty of excellent textbooks used internationally which have chapter-end problems and exercises with definite answers. Being able to correctly solve some reasonable fraction of these questions could be one criterion.

Still more robust possibilities can be explored. For example, HEC could insist that all applicants to a university teaching position pass the examination requirements of appropriate distance learning courses (MOOCS) such as those prepared by Coursera, Stanford or MIT. With biometric checking and proper exam proctoring, this may be a cheap, neutral, bias-free assessment of a candidate’s suitability. Local yardsticks must never be used.

It is time to reject the grotesque distortion of priorities and reorient Pakistan’s universities towards their major responsibility and purpose — teaching. Incentivising paper and PhD production has resulted in mega-corruption. HEC’s foolish policy must be reversed even though the professor mafia will bitterly oppose it. Else even duly certified degrees awarded by Pakistani universities will soon have the worth of an Axact degree.

_The author teaches physics and mathematics in Lahore and Islamabad.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1342483/pakistans-professor-mafia_


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## paritosh

Is evolution being taught in Pakistani schools? does the modern school system in Pakistan put some impetus on imparting Islamic knowledge in some shape and form?


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## mdcp

Pakistan waste lot of money on unnecessary a level/ o level , gmat/ sat, toefel, ielets and other fees and if national testing system and syllabus introduced than we can save lot of foreign exchange


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## Solomon2

*Of Higgs Boson and water-powered cars*




*Khurshid Hasanain*



TFT Issue: 09 Feb 2018
Khurshid Hasanain can’t help but try and give proper answers to people’s queries on matters scientific. It rarely goes well








The author, as a Physics educator, has often made the mistake of trying to seriously address 'scientific queries'​


I have a teacher friend who had a particular technique for dealing with difficult questions in class. When confronted with such a query, he would smile the most amiable of his smiles and respond with “Good question, next question…” and move on to something else. And seriously, there are some questions that should not be asked, preferably not by the people asking them and definitely not at the time that they are asking them.

Every time there is a story in the media about something big to do with science, it captures people’s imagination and they want to understand it. So far, so good. The problem is that usually the answers to such questions are too complicated or so long that the questioner loses interest by the time you are not even halfway through. e.g. a Real Estate agent – who is also an old friend – with whom I was discussing the renting of a house, wanted to know what makes a Higgs Boson tick. He had heard it was the ‘God particle’ and wanted to know then and there what made it so close to the Almighty.





The Higgs Boson particle attracted keen interest in Pakistan, too​
A neighbourhood vegetable seller, who was at that time weighing half a kilo of potatoes for me, wanted to understand in the time it takes the scales of his balance to just about level: “Why can a car simply be run on water?” He had heard someone proclaim on TV that he had invented such a car and was sort of upset when I said it couldn’t possibly be right.

The problem with having been a teacher for a long enough time is that you develop a reflex mechanism whereby any questions that are thrown at you simply have to be answered. It is probably some kind of silly, professional ego problem. Not to respond seems like a dereliction of duty or an admission of failure. So I launch into an answer very sincerely and seriously and watch the progressive change in the countenance of this seeker of knowledge and enlightenment.




​
We start with an initial state where his shiny eyes seem to say “I am thirsting for this knowledge and you are the fountainhead that will quench my thirst” and you feel like Plato expounding in the Academy. However, within the next couple of minutes there is a noticeable change. There is a gradual dulling of the expression followed by furtive movements of the eyes towards the side wall where there just happens to be a large wall clock ticking away. By the time I think I’ve got the basic principle explained, there seems to be something wrong with the questioner’s fingers as they seem to be tapping on the table without reason. The eyes have by now acquired a glazed faraway look.

Suddenly the questioner seems to awaken with a start. “There are a couple of things you need to remember”, says my Real Estate dealer who has so far been engrossed in the mysteries of the Higgs Boson. He has navigated me and my family through several rented houses in the past and knows us all well, unfortunately.





Testing the impossible: a purported test-drive of the famous ‘water-powered car’ in Pakistan​
“Your son must not play the drums at 3 o’clock at night, especially at Sehri time. While most of the neighbours really love his drumming, some of them unfortunately are not into it at 3 am in Ramzan. Others insist that there is a professional Sehri awakener who works the street. They really admire your son’s desire to remind them of the sehri time but he really doesn’t have to perform this duty”.

Before I can fully digest this demand, he warms to his subject. “And how is Bhabhi? Aggressive as ever? These Panipat women. Great, great.”

He nods and I notice certain sympathy in his tone. “Give her my salaam. Ahhm… maybe it would be a good idea if she didn’t tell the children chasing each other across the street to lie down properly if they are so keen to be run over by her car. The children don’t mind but some of the parents don’t seem to agree. It takes all sorts”. He shrugs his shoulders. So much for the lesson in particle physics.




​
As I take my leave, he rubs further salt into my wounds “That was really a wonderful discussion we had on the Higgs Boson. My teachers in school always said I should study science. Even today I continue learning from friends like you.”

The experience with the vegetable vendor is no different, though he has less time to waste and the end comes more abruptly. While I am just beginning to explain to him what we mean by a fuel and why water is not a fuel, and he is nodding his head in profound agreement, suddenly he beckons me towards himself and says in a low voice, “Wonderful bananas. Indian. Smuggled. I’ve saved some for you at a good price”. He then proceeds to bring forth a bunch of darkened bananas that surely must have seen better days. Seeing me hesitate, he adds the coup de grace in a conspiratorial tone: “Very good for the manhood”. This is his final thrust, the masterly sales pitch he makes when he wants to sell the unsalable. I am by now desperate to get something out of our discussion; at least convince him why a perpetual motion machine is not possible. “Oh leave it sir ji”, he says. “You say ‘not possible’, but there is a person on TV who has already built this water car. The CIA will surely kill him or kidnap him, mark my words”. When I protest about the absurdity of the water-as-fuel claim he says “Chaddo ji, forget the bananas. I’ll just put 10 rupees of green peppers and hara dhunya [coriander] with the potatoes. For you, free. OK?”.

Good question, next question…

_The author teaches Physics at Quaid-i-Azam University (QAU)_


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## Solomon2

*A university self-destructs*
Pervez Hoodbhoy Updated March 31, 2018






The writer has taught physics at Quaid-i-Azam University since 1973.


MUCH has been said about the corruption of Pakistan’s politicians, generals, and judges. But large numbers of PhD professors (and the ranks below) are now out to give them stiff competition. While some still care for academic values — i.e., knowing their subjects properly and teaching them well — for many only the holy triad matters: pay, perks, and promotions.

Rampaging protesters brought Quaid-i-Azam University, Pakistan’s purportedly premier university, to a virtual standstill for nearly four weeks. A mob laid siege to the administration building, attempted to manhandle the vice chancellor (VC) near his office, and disrupted the few classes then still being held. They prevented buses from collecting and dropping students, ignoring pleas from fee-paying students that classes be permitted.

These were not just rowdy students. In fact, the protesters have PhDs (many from QAU itself) and are highly paid teachers. They arrive for ‘work’ in fancy cars, negating the time-honoured notion of the hopelessly underpaid, studiously engaged, fuddy-duddy professor with no time for anything other than his books. For nearly a month, these teachers have picnicked at public expense and that of their students, and are still vowing to keep their ‘struggle’ going until victory. Fortunately, they will actually have to struggle because dozens of other QAU teachers have refused to join the strikers.

_Greed-propelled professors must be stopped from wrecking Quaid-i-Azam University._​
But what exactly are the protesters protesting? A ‘white paper’ issued by the Academic Staff Association declares that it has a single point agenda — the removal of the VC. Indeed, it is almost time for him to leave — he has only a few months of tenure left anyway. But curious readers must ask why this unseemly rush.

Measured on a Pakistani scale, the white paper’s accusations are fairly bland. The VC is deemed incompetent, accused of lacking financial integrity and leadership acumen, etc. Unaware that they contradict themselves, the accusers say the VC has not taken “ownership of the university” but in the next breath complain he interferes in everything.

The VC’s written rebuttal to these charges may or may not convince. But one fact glares out — the striking teachers do not demand a change in the university’s increasing bleak academic environment. Over the last 30-40 years the only thing that the ASA has done is to make every possible demand for enhancing the personal wealth and power of teachers.

Past demands have included the outrageous proposition that the university’s land be gifted to teachers as their private property. The current ASA bitterly resists attempts to have professionals in the university’s administration, insisting that key administrative positions be reserved for teachers.

At a collective level, the ASA has made no proposal for improving QAU’s pathetic teaching standards, ending the widely practised system of rote learning, or any other academic cause. Meanwhile, the new four-year BS programme stands abandoned because professors refuse to teach those classes, leaving this task for poorly paid visiting teachers. On violations of academic integrity by university teachers, the protesters are mum. And yet, well known across the campus, are countless examples of appalling behaviour:

Take department W where an influential professor of that very department manipulated things to get his son and student appointed as junior faculty. Ninety PhDs, some from good universities in Europe and elsewhere, had applied and 18 were shortlisted. But it turned out that advertising the position had been a mere formality; the outcome had long been pre-decided.

Or take department X. A different ethnicity means you cannot get a job there. How else to explain that almost all its faculty members are from the same province and share the same ethnic background? Strong preferences for those sharing the same ethnicity is evident everywhere. Last year, the university was shut down for weeks when Sindhi and Baloch students bashed each other with dandas while Punjabi students recorded this gleefully on their smartphones.

As for department Y: to be welcomed on to its faculty you had to belong to the right religious sect. Earlier appointments had in fact reflected this fact but then the other sect — which happens to be the majority sect in Pakistan — couldn’t take it anymore. The inevitable backlash happened and the chairperson was ousted.

In department Z it’s a bit different. A particular candidate was judged to be clearly superior in relation to all others. But a call from ‘above’ — i.e., from the agencies that supposedly protect Pakistan — said he must not be promoted because of his anti-establishment views. As is often the case, only verbal — not written — directives were given. His academic achievements were disregarded. Thus that promotion case ended right there!

Had principled behaviour been a consideration, the above examples would instantly have generated outrage. But only greed and personal benefit explains the present upheaval. Perhaps one particular motivation has been more important than any other.

It so happens that some time ago, certain influential teachers had strong-armed the administration — mostly in the previous VC’s term but also more recently — into granting them massive salary increments. Auditors eventually declared these excess payments illegal and the Higher Education Commission refused to foot the bill, demanding instead that excess amounts be returned.

No way! Instead, these professors — again through the ASA — forced the university to pay and caused student fees to rocket upward. Unaware of the real reason, students directed their anger at the administration. An average teacher’s salary amounts to roughly 10-15 times what they pay to their domestic servants.

Other Pakistani universities are in no better shape than QAU, some decidedly worse. But QAU in Islamabad is supposedly Pakistan’s flagship university. It is located barely two miles from the seat of government. What happens here is watched widely across the country.

Pakistan has been unable to develop a university culture over its 70 years of existence because violators of academic ethics, morality, and basic notions of justice go scot-free. To stop QAU’s rapid descent into a moral black hole, the government needs to enforce the rule of law. Whether they are professors or students, those who use violence to disrupt academic activities should have no place on campus.

_The writer has taught physics at Quaid-i-Azam University since 1973._

_Published in Dawn, March 31st, 2018_

Reactions: Like Like:
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## fanne

Solomon2 said:


> *A university self-destructs*
> Pervez Hoodbhoy Updated March 31, 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The writer has taught physics at Quaid-i-Azam University since 1973.
> 
> 
> MUCH has been said about the corruption of Pakistan’s politicians, generals, and judges. But large numbers of PhD professors (and the ranks below) are now out to give them stiff competition. While some still care for academic values — i.e., knowing their subjects properly and teaching them well — for many only the holy triad matters: pay, perks, and promotions.
> 
> Rampaging protesters brought Quaid-i-Azam University, Pakistan’s purportedly premier university, to a virtual standstill for nearly four weeks. A mob laid siege to the administration building, attempted to manhandle the vice chancellor (VC) near his office, and disrupted the few classes then still being held. They prevented buses from collecting and dropping students, ignoring pleas from fee-paying students that classes be permitted.
> 
> These were not just rowdy students. In fact, the protesters have PhDs (many from QAU itself) and are highly paid teachers. They arrive for ‘work’ in fancy cars, negating the time-honoured notion of the hopelessly underpaid, studiously engaged, fuddy-duddy professor with no time for anything other than his books. For nearly a month, these teachers have picnicked at public expense and that of their students, and are still vowing to keep their ‘struggle’ going until victory. Fortunately, they will actually have to struggle because dozens of other QAU teachers have refused to join the strikers.
> 
> _Greed-propelled professors must be stopped from wrecking Quaid-i-Azam University._​
> But what exactly are the protesters protesting? A ‘white paper’ issued by the Academic Staff Association declares that it has a single point agenda — the removal of the VC. Indeed, it is almost time for him to leave — he has only a few months of tenure left anyway. But curious readers must ask why this unseemly rush.
> 
> Measured on a Pakistani scale, the white paper’s accusations are fairly bland. The VC is deemed incompetent, accused of lacking financial integrity and leadership acumen, etc. Unaware that they contradict themselves, the accusers say the VC has not taken “ownership of the university” but in the next breath complain he interferes in everything.
> 
> The VC’s written rebuttal to these charges may or may not convince. But one fact glares out — the striking teachers do not demand a change in the university’s increasing bleak academic environment. Over the last 30-40 years the only thing that the ASA has done is to make every possible demand for enhancing the personal wealth and power of teachers.
> 
> Past demands have included the outrageous proposition that the university’s land be gifted to teachers as their private property. The current ASA bitterly resists attempts to have professionals in the university’s administration, insisting that key administrative positions be reserved for teachers.
> 
> At a collective level, the ASA has made no proposal for improving QAU’s pathetic teaching standards, ending the widely practised system of rote learning, or any other academic cause. Meanwhile, the new four-year BS programme stands abandoned because professors refuse to teach those classes, leaving this task for poorly paid visiting teachers. On violations of academic integrity by university teachers, the protesters are mum. And yet, well known across the campus, are countless examples of appalling behaviour:
> 
> Take department W where an influential professor of that very department manipulated things to get his son and student appointed as junior faculty. Ninety PhDs, some from good universities in Europe and elsewhere, had applied and 18 were shortlisted. But it turned out that advertising the position had been a mere formality; the outcome had long been pre-decided.
> 
> Or take department X. A different ethnicity means you cannot get a job there. How else to explain that almost all its faculty members are from the same province and share the same ethnic background? Strong preferences for those sharing the same ethnicity is evident everywhere. Last year, the university was shut down for weeks when Sindhi and Baloch students bashed each other with dandas while Punjabi students recorded this gleefully on their smartphones.
> 
> As for department Y: to be welcomed on to its faculty you had to belong to the right religious sect. Earlier appointments had in fact reflected this fact but then the other sect — which happens to be the majority sect in Pakistan — couldn’t take it anymore. The inevitable backlash happened and the chairperson was ousted.
> 
> In department Z it’s a bit different. A particular candidate was judged to be clearly superior in relation to all others. But a call from ‘above’ — i.e., from the agencies that supposedly protect Pakistan — said he must not be promoted because of his anti-establishment views. As is often the case, only verbal — not written — directives were given. His academic achievements were disregarded. Thus that promotion case ended right there!
> 
> Had principled behaviour been a consideration, the above examples would instantly have generated outrage. But only greed and personal benefit explains the present upheaval. Perhaps one particular motivation has been more important than any other.
> 
> It so happens that some time ago, certain influential teachers had strong-armed the administration — mostly in the previous VC’s term but also more recently — into granting them massive salary increments. Auditors eventually declared these excess payments illegal and the Higher Education Commission refused to foot the bill, demanding instead that excess amounts be returned.
> 
> No way! Instead, these professors — again through the ASA — forced the university to pay and caused student fees to rocket upward. Unaware of the real reason, students directed their anger at the administration. An average teacher’s salary amounts to roughly 10-15 times what they pay to their domestic servants.
> 
> Other Pakistani universities are in no better shape than QAU, some decidedly worse. But QAU in Islamabad is supposedly Pakistan’s flagship university. It is located barely two miles from the seat of government. What happens here is watched widely across the country.
> 
> Pakistan has been unable to develop a university culture over its 70 years of existence because violators of academic ethics, morality, and basic notions of justice go scot-free. To stop QAU’s rapid descent into a moral black hole, the government needs to enforce the rule of law. Whether they are professors or students, those who use violence to disrupt academic activities should have no place on campus.
> 
> _The writer has taught physics at Quaid-i-Azam University since 1973._
> 
> _Published in Dawn, March 31st, 2018_



an eye opening article .


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## Indus Priest King

Your problem with education is the following:

a. You adopted a colonial education system; nothing good can come from this. British Raj was not in the mood of educating the population of "natives". They just wanted literate slaves who were smart enough to work for them, but just dumb enough not to revolt. It worked like a charm...that is until Britain went bankrupt after World War 2.

b. English; I cannot fathom Pakistan's obsession with English. KP Government made this blunder in education as well. The key here is NATIVE LANGUAGE. When children are taught in native languages, they excel....they learn concepts, rather than memorizing.

Punjab should be teaching in Punjabi.
Sindh should be teaching in Sindhi.
KP should be teaching in Pashto.

I understand that there are multiple languages spoken in the provinces, but provisions can be made. Urdu should be taught alongside mother tongue. Period. English is not needed...look at Japan...the world's most technologically advanced country, and they don't speak a word of English.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Mohammad Ilyas

In my opinion teaching of manners and attitude to be a nice human is essential to be included in the basic course. When there used to be no such science or extra studying faculties in the sub-continent there used to be taught knowledge that consisted only religion and linguistics but courses of social manners dealing with everyday affairs was essential part of basic knowledge then. Nowadays that type of course is taught as Dars e Nizami in Madrassas. Sorry to say that these Madrassas also do not teach the essential part of studies of manners of that time. e.g the two books of Sheikh Saa'di namely Gulistan and Boostan that taught social manners as dealing with humans, manliness and faith and loyalty are not taught in Madrassas even when these books were the part of Dars e Nizami. Probably because of Mullahs not able to know Persian language. 
Teaching of manners and dealing social affairs as a true Muslim may make an educated person properly furnished.


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## lafete

Behind every social upheaval lies an intellectual crisis. Islam is not in crisis - the Muslims are!

The root cause of this crisis is the decimation of the Islamic education system. 

The Almighty will never allow the establishment of a western education system in Muslim lands. 

Malaysia and Turkey are modern, developed countries. They boast a high education rate and follow the western curriculum and method of education closely. 

The number of patents and research papers coming out of Malaysia and Turkey, when compared with any western country, is fairly minuscule. These two countries have had no role in any ground breaking innovation, finding cures to major diseases, leading in any scientific area, winning Nobel prizes, etc. In-short, they do not play a major role in pushing the frontiers of human knowledge and advancing the human intellect. 

There is good news though. The western education system is coming close to its shelf life. Education is going online!

Websites like khan academy allow anyone to get an education till high school. With virtual reality and universities offering free online courses, the entire system is going through a change.


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## maithil

Thousands of students thrown out of their rented hostel.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184484677987516416


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## shah_123

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186236050122989570

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## jamal18

Indus Priest King said:


> Your problem with education is the following:
> 
> a. You adopted a colonial education system; nothing good can come from this. British Raj was not in the mood of educating the population of "natives". They just wanted literate slaves who were smart enough to work for them, but just dumb enough not to revolt. It worked like a charm...that is until Britain went bankrupt after World War 2.
> 
> b. English; I cannot fathom Pakistan's obsession with English. KP Government made this blunder in education as well. The key here is NATIVE LANGUAGE. When children are taught in native languages, they excel....they learn concepts, rather than memorizing.
> 
> Punjab should be teaching in Punjabi.
> Sindh should be teaching in Sindhi.
> KP should be teaching in Pashto.
> 
> I understand that there are multiple languages spoken in the provinces, but provisions can be made. Urdu should be taught alongside mother tongue. Period. English is not needed...look at Japan...the world's most technologically advanced country, and they don't speak a word of English.



You cannot understand how mant times I have said this, and Pakistanis do not even understand the concept. Name me one white country where, ' English is the language of education.'

A deep inferiority complex and self-loathing are the curse of the black man.

I remember talking to a European girl about being taught _in English_, and she looked at me as if I was mad.


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## Fatima Khan0007

SekrutYakhni said:


> Originally posted by Araz.
> 
> "I am not sure whether a radical change in the system of education is required.* Text and content wise we are better than the western systems that we so envy. *However independant thinking needs to be inculcated and for that the teachers need to be trained.Every where in the world there are days set aside for teaching the trainers. Ever see that in Pakistan.
> Look I dont want to digress from the topic at hand. Please feel free to open a new thread and discuss the education needs separately. We can then shift the mails from this thread and continue there."
> Araz
> 
> 
> 
> I am a bit confused here. Which 'text and content' are you talking about? There are three parallel systems running in the glorious country. i.e. Imported one, local and Madrassa type. Now the first one, imported, you cannot say that it is better than the west because it is already imported from there. Local (Matriculation system) is not better than the west; therefore, individuals prefer to do O and A levels. Madrassa system is not even at par with the local education system let alone the western system. You know why I emphasized more on changing the education system at grass root level? Majority of our people cannot go to schools like LGS etc so they end up going to government schools. Should I tell you the condition of government schools? So, we have to think for the majority. Introduce new and effective system in government schools. Take the example of India, only one uniformed system. We should uplift our existing system so we don't have to import our education system. Wasn't it a failure when we introduced a western system? For me it was because it shows that we failed to develop a local system. Open community schools--Social justice! It is the right of poor people to get same level of education as rich do! Yaar, jis mulk mien 9 and 10 ka aik year alag exams aur next year aik sath exams hoon, what do you expect from that education system? A bit too much experiments, eh!
> 
> So, if we are able to give a good education to our kids at junior level, they will automatically thrive in universities. If universities will get a 'lot' of thinkers rather than ratu baz, universities will further flourish the abilities of young brats.
> 
> Defence budget has increased significantly, whereas, the education budget is at all time low--


before the world knows about our lacking i think the matter should be handled on the country level. It is so important to pass the mantle between dif individuals and stop blaming teachers or the education system it self. We need to change our educational practices first


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## ghazi52

*Prof. Dr. Salimuzzaman Siddiqui*

A Chemist, Philosopher, Artist, Critic of literature and a Visionary of Science. The man who merged eastern and western medicine. Pride of Pakistan.

Prof. Dr. Salimuzzaman Siddiqui was born on 19 October 1897 to Sheikh Muhammad Zaman. After receiving his early education from Lucknow, he went on to earn his graduation in Philosophy and Persian language, from M.A.O College (later became Aligarh Muslim University) in 1919.

In 1920, Siddiqui proceeded to University College London to study medicine. However, after one year of pre-medical studies, he moved to Frankfurt University in 1921 to study chemistry. In 1924, he married his German classmate, Ethel Wilhelmina Schneeman. He received Doctor of Philosophy under the supervision of Prof Julius Von Bram in 1927.

On his return, he established the Ayurvedic and Unani Tibbi Research Institute at the Tibbia College Delhi, under the guidance of Hakim Ajmal Khan. He was appointed its first Director. However, soon after the death of Hakim Ajmal Khan, Siddiqui left the post. In 1940, he joined Indian Council for Scientific and Industrial Research where he worked until 1951 when he migrated to Pakistan on the request of Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan.

Salimuzzaman's first breakthrough in research came when he successfully isolated an antiarrhythmic agent in 1931 from the roots of Rauwolfia serpentina. He named the newly discovered chemical compound as Ajmaline, after his mentor Hakim Ajmal Khan who was one of the illustrious practitioners of Unani system of medicine in South Asia. Later on, Siddiqui also extracted other alkaloids from Rauwolfia serpentina that included Ajmalinine, Ajmalicine (C21H24N2O3), Isoajmaline, Neoajmaline, Serpentine and Serpentinine. Many of these are still used worldwide for treatment of mental disorders and cardiovascular ailments, especially as antiarrhythmic agents in Brugada syndrome.

Siddiqui was the first scientist to bring the anthelmintic, antifungal, antibacterial, and antiviral constituents of the Neem tree to the attention of natural products chemists. In 1942, he extracted three bitter compounds from neem oil, which he named as nimbin, nimbinin, and nimbidin respectively. The process involved extracting the water-insoluble components with ether, petrol ether, ethyl acetate and dilute alcohol. The provisional naming was nimbin (sulphur-free crystalline product with melting point at 205 °C, empirical composition C7H10O2), nimbinin (with similar principle, melting at 192 °C), and nimbidin (cream-coloured containing amorphous sulphur, melting at 90–100 °C). Siddiqui identified nimbidin as the main active antibacterial ingredient, and the highest yielding bitter component in the neem oil. These compounds are stable and found in substantial quantities in the Neem. They also serve as natural insecticides.

In acknowledgement of these revolutionary discoveries, he was awarded the Order of the British Empire in 1946.

In his later career, Siddiqui continued to discover and isolate numerous unique anti-bacterial compounds from various parts (leaves, bark, etc.) of the Neem and other plants. He had more than 50 chemical compounds patented in his name in addition to those discovered as a result of his joint research with other colleagues and students. Most of these discoveries still remain vital natural ingredients of various medicines as well as bio-pesticides.

Siddiqui migrated to Pakistan in 1951, four years after the emergence of Pakistan in 1947, after being offered and appointed as 'science advisor' to the government by Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan. He was appointed as Director of the Pakistan Department of Research that was reformulated in 1953 as Pakistan Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (PCSIR). The aim of PCSIR was to support the industrial infrastructure through research and development. The regional laboratories of the institution were located in Dhaka, Rajshahi and Chittagong (East Pakistan), and in Lahore and Peshawar (West Pakistan).

In 1953, Salimuzzaman Siddiqui founded the Pakistan Academy of Sciences as a non-political think tank of distinguished scientists in the country. In 1956, when Government of Pakistan established Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC) as an atomic research agency, Siddiqui was designated as its technical member.

In recognition of his scientific leadership, Frankfurt University granted him the degree of D.Med. Honoris causa in 1958; Also, in 1958, the Government of Pakistan awarded him with Tamgha-e-Pakistan. In 1960, he became the President of Pan-Indian Ocean Science Association. The same year, he was elected Fellow of the Royal Society. In 1962, he was awarded the Sitara-e-Imtiaz for distinguished merit in the fields of science and medicine.

Siddiqui remained the director and chairman of PCSIR until the time of his retirement in 1966. In that year, the President of Pakistan awarded him the Pride of Performance Medal for the respectable completion of his service.

In 1967, Siddiqui was invited by University of Karachi to set up a Postgraduate Institute of Chemistry in affiliation with the Department of Chemistry. He was designated as the institute's Founder Director, whereas the additional research staff was provided by PCSIR. In 1976, the institute was offered a generous donation from Hussain Jamal Foundation. In due time, Siddiqui transformed the institute into a distinguished centre of international excellence in the field of chemistry and natural products.

In March 1975, Salimuzzaman Siddiqui headed the National Commission for Indigenous Medicines His tireless efforts for the promotion of science and technology earned him Hilal-e-Imtiaz by the Government of Pakistan in 1980. In 1983, he played a major role in the establishment of the Third World Academy of Sciences and became its Founding Fellow. He remained the director of the Hussain Ebrahim Jamal Research Institute of Chemistry until 1990. Later on, he continued research in his personal laboratory.

Salimuzzaman Siddiqui died on 14 April 1994 due to cardiac arrest after a brief illness in Karachi. He was buried in the Karachi University Graveyard. Despite his death, the academic and research institutes that he founded during more than 65 years of his research career are still contributing to the international level research in natural products chemistry.

As a person of multiple talents, Siddiqui was also a refined poet, musician, and a painter. In August 1924, he held his first international exhibition of paintings in Frankfurt. Later in 1927, his works of art were exhibited at the Uzielli Gallery, Frankfurt. During his stay in Germany, he also translated Rainer Maria Rilke's poetry into Urdu, which was published in the journal of Jamia Millia Islamia. Though, his passion for arts was superseded by the enthusiasm in scientific research, he continued to patronise arts and culture. In 1966, he was at the forefront for setting up the Central Institute of Arts and Crafts in Karachi. He also compiled a selection of poetry of Mir Taqi Mir into Intekhab-e-Meer. In 1983, he published a portfolio collection of charcoal drawings from 1920 to 1950s.

On 14 April 1999, the Pakistan Post, as part of its 'Scientists of Pakistan' series, issued a commemorative stamp to honour the contributions and services of Siddiqui. In the same year, the street leading to PCSIR Laboratories Complex in Karachi was named as Shahrah-e-Dr. Salim-uz-Zaman Siddiqui. Siddiqui was awarded the prestigious Hilal-e-Imtiaz, Pride of Performance, MBE, Tamgha-e-Pakistan and Sitara-e-Imtiaz for his various contributions. He passed away on April 14, 1994 in Karachi.


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## POPEYE-Sailor

Except for Karachi??
Why, Isn't Karachi a city of Sindh?


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## maithil

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1320751710151843841


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## Dil_Pakistan

https://www.dawn.com/news/1588308/uniform-education-to-end-class-based-system-pm


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## Mughal1

My understanding of things about the quran and mankind see HERE and HERE.


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## POPEYE-Sailor

میڈیکل ٹیسٹ کے لئے ہونے والے احتجاج میں شامل مظاہرین کون تھے ؟ کوئی مزدور نکلا کوئی احتجاج کی وجہ سے
  Sindh quota system sucks 




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1837143503102442


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## POPEYE-Sailor

حیدرآباد کے کالج کی انتظامیہ نے ریکارڈ کباڑیے کو فروخت کردیا
Bhutoo jani wtf





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=270613781412352


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## BATMAN

Is this for real?


https://propakistani.pk/2021/08/26/pm-khan-criticizes-english-medium-education-system/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=pmd_T1f2TawDVboZzySt6I4JbIpdD3s0XzoZ0jwUfxLPbSE-1630161264-0-gqNtZGzNAiWjcnBszQlR


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## BATMAN

“English-medium education is a sign of mental slavery,” Imran Khan


Prime Minister Imran Khan slammed the English-medium educational system




campusguru.pk





This news is being reported all over the world, If true than Pakistan education ka Khuda Hafiz.


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## clvpsy

Is is this real?
https://maalumat.pk


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## Super Falcon

Worst educational system in mankind history where teachers come only to get paid and they dont hae any respect to students


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