# Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]



## SQ8

Previous thread quite extended, continue discussions here. 
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 694

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## rockstar08

still not signed the deal yet ? 

Naya thread a gaya lakin jahaaz nai aya

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## IrbiS




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## PARIKRAMA

The option of Sukhoi is just to make Dassault feel a bit of pressure perhaps. See at 272 Su30 MKI +42 Super Sukhois (status of contract unknown) for Nuclear strike role makes it total of 314. Assuming even if numbers are increased to say 500 birds with modernization and assimilation of AESA and Newer BVR missiles + Brahmos M... Result will be a topline heavy cost intensive and high lifecycle cost birds. Reason being, the MKIs are not like fully locally TOTised but rather licence produced at HAL. Meaning for another 180-200 birds we would only pay royalty and manufacture what we already have - A heavy class air superiority bird. Also even with a high production rate the whole reaching 500 kind of figure would take at least 10-12 years just for production, leaving the need of higher number of qualified pilots who can pilot/handle MKI. The maintanence of engine and flying hours being limited will mean we got to stock a much larger number or buy out a whole line for all future purpose.. Either ways its gonna shoot up the cost.

The fact remains that Dassault contract of 15-17Bn would be signed as soon as 
A) India makes budgetary allocation for newer purchases (expected in first full budget of arun jaitley FM in Feb 2015 for acquisition from April 2015 onwards
B) Dassualt works out the issue with HAL and takes full responsibility of 108 birds.

Interestingly, i have been hearing a figure of 20-22 Bn $ also but guess what.... not for 126 but a total of 189 birds. A round figure of 126 +63 follow on complete deal size.

Again a strange question in front of our MOD.. a potential Hi-Mid-Lo combination if it is what forsighted then where is Mid in case of more MKIs? assuming Lo is taken care by LCA MK1.. Will proposed MK2 still be Lo only or now it is envisioned to come under Mid bracket. Another point, with say HOT ENGINE technology for GE 414 (for operation under extreme hot temperature), the chances of MK2 coming with more enhanced capacity has increased. Thus, it is a gud guess if Dassault does not take 100% onus for HAL produced ones then the MOD and possibly our PM may entrust our requirement focused surely on LCA MK2 and trumphet it as Make in India's biggest and most ambitious project.

But there is a flip side. USA for some time had been creating slowing/delaying tactics for dual use technologies procurement. A case in example is our own High Altitude Long Endurance program for UAVs which is missing a critical equipment which is procured from USA, a dual use technology. and now there are talks of Amercian HALE UAV being discussed by IN.. So can India be assured that critical tech like Hot engine tech may also not get botched up or delayed just to sell say a more costlier engine/ fighter jet being offered by USA??

I guess DM Parrikar comments are much more than what meets the eye. A very good point now would be to look at all directions to see who is holding what cards close to their hearts and whats hiding up in sleeves...

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## nik22

rockstar08 said:


> still not signed the deal yet ?
> 
> Naya thread a gaya lakin jahaaz nai aya


The way things are going, this might not come at all.


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## jha

PARIKRAMA said:


> The option of Sukhoi is just to make Dassault feel a bit of pressure perhaps. See at 272 Su30 MKI +42 Super Sukhois (status of contract unknown) for Nuclear strike role makes it total of 314. Assuming even if numbers are increased to say 500 birds with modernization and assimilation of AESA and Newer BVR missiles + Brahmos M... Result will be a topline heavy cost intensive and high lifecycle cost birds. Reason being, the MKIs are not like fully locally TOTised but rather licence produced at HAL. Meaning for another 180-200 birds we would only pay royalty and manufacture what we already have - A heavy class air superiority bird. Also even with a high production rate the whole reaching 500 kind of figure would take at least 10-12 years just for production, leaving the need of higher number of qualified pilots who can pilot/handle MKI. The maintanence of engine and flying hours being limited will mean we got to stock a much larger number or buy out a whole line for all future purpose.. Either ways its gonna shoot up the cost.



Su-30s ordered till date are supposed to enter IAF by 2019 if I am not wrong. Ordering another hundred of these will run the production line for another 5 years ( If a new production line is not created for these extra planes ).

Su-30MKI is being produced now in HAL from Raw materials. Just count the number of years HAL has taken to absorb the TOT. We can safely assume Rafale's will take similar time. That means HAL will either assemble from kits manufactured by OEMs from France ( with manufacturing fe sub systems ofcourse to show off as TOT ) or, take its own sweet time to absorb TOT. In either case, there is no use to spend so much money as the planes will come too late for augmenting the falling numbers. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> The fact remains that Dassault contract of 15-17Bn would be signed as soon as
> A) India makes budgetary allocation for newer purchases (expected in first full budget of arun jaitley FM in Feb 2015 for acquisition from April 2015 onwards
> B) Dassualt works out the issue with HAL and takes full responsibility of 108 birds.



Both are big IFs. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> Again a strange question in front of our MOD.. a potential Hi-Mid-Lo combination if it is what forsighted then where is Mid in case of more MKIs? assuming Lo is taken care by LCA MK1.. Will proposed MK2 still be Lo only or now it is envisioned to come under Mid bracket. Another point, with say HOT ENGINE technology for GE 414 (for operation under extreme hot temperature), the chances of MK2 coming with more enhanced capacity has increased. Thus, it is a gud guess if Dassault does not take 100% onus for HAL produced ones then the MOD and possibly our PM may entrust our requirement focused surely on LCA MK2 and trumphet it as Make in India's biggest and most ambitious project.



First MRCA choice was Mirage. Later the competition was opened up for rather heavy fighters like Rafale, Typhoon and SH. LCA-II will be in similar class of Mirage.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Interestingly, i have been hearing a figure of 20-22 Bn $ also but guess what.... not for 126 but a total of 189 birds. A round figure of 126 +63 follow on complete deal size.



If Scorpene deal is any indication, we Will pay ~$ 20 Bill. for 126 planes itself. There always will be some difficulty or, other on our Industries to deliver sub-systems in time and we will be forced to source them from OEMs, jacking up the cost.



PARIKRAMA said:


> But there is a flip side. USA for some time had been creating slowing/delaying tactics for dual use technologies procurement. A case in example is our own High Altitude Long Endurance program for UAVs which is missing a critical equipment which is procured from USA, a dual use technology. and now there are talks of Amercian HALE UAV being discussed by IN.. So can India be assured that critical tech like Hot engine tech may also not get botched up or delayed just to sell say a more costlier engine/ fighter jet being offered by USA??



Thats why local Aerospace industries should be encouraged by investing in them. If France's decision to block Russian Mistral ( which was paid by Russia ) is any indication, they are no more neutral and are influenced by NATO's decisions. We should be careful with them as well.

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## nik22

*By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 1st Jan 2015*

For the first time since January 31, 2012, when the French Rafale fighter was chosen as the future medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF), a top Indian official has admitted serious problems in negotiating the purchase with French vendor, Dassault.

Speaking to the media on Tuesday evening, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said there were “complications” in the negotiations that have already dragged on for almost three years, with the French side reluctant to meet commitments that the IAF had specified in the tender.

Parrikar did not reveal details. Business Standard has reported earlier on Dassault’s unwillingness to assume responsibility for the production of Rafales by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, which the tender mandated. HAL is to build 108 Rafales in India with technology transferred from Dassault and its sub-vendors.

Ominously for Dassault, Parrikar said that additional Sukhoi-30MKI fighters, which HAL builds in Nashik, were adequate for the IAF in case it was decided not to procure the Rafale.

The IAF currently plans to have 272 Su-30MKI fighters by about 2018. HAL’s Nashik production line is building the fighter at Rs 358 crore each, less than half the estimated cost of buying the Rafale.

“The Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force’s needs”, said Parrikar.

Earlier this month, Parrikar had assured his French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian, during the latter’s visit to New Delhi on December 1, that Rafale negotiations would be placed on a “fast track”, according to MoD officials.

The defence minister revealed on Tuesday that the French defence minister “has (committed) to send an empowered person to negotiate after New Year.”

According to the terms of the MMRCA tender, 18 of the 126 fighters being bought would be supplied fully built abroad, with the remaining 108 manufactured by HAL. The cost of the project, originally sanctioned at Rs 42,000 crore, has now crossed Rs 100,000 crore, according to expert estimates.


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## jha

@Abingdonboy 

That thread got deleted. Let me explain it here.

MRCA is vital for IAF to augment the numbers of planes. However the way things are moving and Dassault is digging its heel, I dont see the deal being signed before Mid-2015 ( at the earliest ). By 2017/2018, First France made Squads will arrive. After that the toatl production will be done in HAL facilities. As per HAL's record till date, only way HAL can produce One Squad/Year is by assembling CKDs coming from OEMs. Otherwise HAL will take atleast 6-7 years to absorb TOT enough for producing One Squad/ Year. So, 4-5 Squad of Rafale by 2022 is a very very big target.

Lets check the Per hour Flying Costs now : _In 2012, Janes had conducted a study and had found per hour flying cost of western fighter Jets (except F-22 ) for Rafale to be $16.5K. For EF-2000, they had estimated this to be ~18K. F-35 was costliest to fly ($26-31K ). Gripen was ~$5K. 

Any such study for SU-30MKI is not known to me. However there was a thread here where they had estimated it to be $14K/Hour. Even if we add 50% more to this, the figure still is not double of Rafale's per hour flying cost._


In 2011, the MRCA deal was worth $10-11 Bill. Going by even conservative estimates, cost has ballooned to $15-16 Bill. Even if we sign the deal in Mid-2015, Total cost will be sure to be ~$ 18 Bill ( This figure is a very optimistic one going by their antics in P-75 ).

Indian Rafales are most likely to be excluded from future development program ( Even Sancho ( biggest Rafale Supporter here) has mentioned this in his latest posts ). We will be just a Customer nothing else. For any upgrade in future, we will be paying them just like we paid in Mirage ( And we know how much they charge for any such upgrades ).

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## Koovie

Prepare for a third thread.........


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## rockstar08

Koovie said:


> Prepare for a third thread.........



buy Eurofighter ..


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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> The option of Sukhoi is just to make Dassault feel a bit of pressure perhaps.



Exactly, just as a threat to canel the whole tender, but that's a cheap threat, since everybody knows that IAF will never go for more MKIs to make itself more dependent on Russia, nor that IAF want more heavy class fighters, with 200+ FGFA on the list anyway. So that's a a pretty silly bluff and the only chance to actually put pressure on Dassault is the EF.



jha said:


> Indian Rafales are most likely to be excluded from future development program ( Even Sancho ( biggest Rafale Supporter here) has mentioned this in his latest posts ).



I never said that India will be excluded, but that Dassault is focusing only on French requirements and not on joint requirements and seeing us as a partner. They might offer us joint production of parts developed mainly for the French forces, but does that help our requirements? We probably will see a more customized Rafale for India, based on the upgrades Dassault develops for France.


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## C130

why was SU-34 never considered for MMRCA??


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## sancho

jha said:


> First MRCA choice was Mirage. Later the competition was opened up for *rather heavy fighters like Rafale*, Typhoon and SH. LCA-II will be in similar class of Mirage.



Mirage 2000 emptyweight - 7500Kg
Gripen E - 8000Kg
F16 Block 52 - 9200Kg
Rafale - 9500Kg
F16 IN - with AESA, IRST, CFTs with refuelling probe..., around 9900Kg



C130 said:


> why was SU-34 never considered for MMRCA??



Because it's not a medium class fighter.

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## C130

sancho said:


> Mirage 2000 emptyweight - 7500Kg
> Gripen E - 8000Kg
> F16 Block 52 - 9200Kg
> Rafale - 9500Kg
> F16 IN - with AESA, IRST, CFTs with refuelling probe..., around 9900Kg
> 
> 
> 
> Because it's not a medium class fighter.


Ooo makes sense.


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## kurup

Second thread and the deal has not been signed yet .....


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## jha

sancho said:


> Exactly, just as a threat to canel the whole tender, but that's a cheap threat, since everybody knows that IAF will never go for more MKIs to make itself more dependent on Russia, nor that IAF want more heavy class fighters, with 200+ FGFA on the list anyway. So that's a a pretty silly bluff and the only chance to actually put pressure on Dassault is the EF.
> 
> .




Not an empty threat or, cheap trick. This is being seriously considered as Russians have offered a very good deal. IAF is most probably on board. France has really not understood the difference in approach of new govt. If accepted, it will result in faster induction of much cheaper planes. EF is out.



sancho said:


> I never said that India will be excluded, but that Dassault is focusing only on French requirements and not on joint requirements and seeing us as a partner. They might offer us joint production of parts developed mainly for the French forces, but does that help our requirements? We probably will see a more customized Rafale for India, based on the upgrades Dassault develops for France.



Exactly... We are excluded for Now. They "might" sell us the whole Production line for Rafale in future. "Might" is the key word here and when dealing with France, this "might" becomes even more important. I would rather not trust their empty promises. Their record is rather dismal and leaves a lot to be desired.


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## CONNAN

*Rafale M11 , in operational configuration (real GBU), releasing flares*

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## IrbiS



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## PARIKRAMA

A critical question is how much hit Indian Image will take in case Rafale deals falls apart? If MOD says high cost was the reason or says reluctance of Dassault for owing HAL produced bird's responsibility or both would mean a slugfest of charges and counter charges with possible litigation (extreme case). Another would be Indian contratcs uptill signing would be viewed as Window Shopping rather than being serious.

The fact is its a big loss for both sides if the deal fall apart...Let us analyse few finer ponts and perspectives

Indian Replacement options: for rafales
1. Order additional MKIs -

Cost Rs 384 Cr per bird at current configuration. Upgradation of radar, BVR Missile, Brahmos Integration should push the cost in the range of 450-500 Cr per bird.
AESA radar is costly and would mean major changes in power distribution and circuitary levels. Its not a plug and play system and would need a intrinsic overhaul.
If we want stabler engine performance and quick replacement that would need large chunk of engine and spares being purchased.
A creation of another overhaul center other than Nashik to ensure more quicker turnaround.
Fastracking of Astra MK2 and Brahmos M testing time table and possibly range
Manpower Management with pilots being trained and availability
New Heads on Display helmets and newer tech assimilation from Israeli would need concurrence from Russia so expect few niggles in that
2. LCA MK2

Envisioned on paper. Needs fast tracking in war footing priority
Critical Engine tech is American. Would mean dependency and possibly geo political reluctance/ stances issues. Unless the whole line is bought by India - highly unlikely as cost would be huge but that gives a fresh life to reverse engineer and make it more evolved.
The orders of 84 MK2 then needs to be moved to closer to 150 that requires commitment from IAF and performance from MK2. As of now both are uncertain as bird is on paper.
Lack of outside consultants as Snecma wont like to partner for some time (bcz of rafale fall out)
4th gen or max 4.5th gen with assimilation of tech from India/russia/Israel/US.
A superior product then MK1 surely but all depend upon the time frame of this project
3. FGFA

On paper as of now as contract not signed but Russian T50 tested and would get 50 birds in next 5 years in their airforce. Indian FGFA program a bit unclear
Heavy CLass Fighter
127 numbers envisioned. A lack of option may propel it higher but its gonna escalate cost of operation (surely higher than MKI)
Program time frame meeting would need war footing focus.
Without Rafale would means Russian stand a chance to squeeze us with lack of options.
Unknown engine as new engine would be tested soon. Hope its superiority is beyond TVC which Russian are more famous for and less maintenance intensive as MKIs with fewer problems and longer life
Lets look into 2 more angles
IAF issues

Critical shortage in squadron numbers with mandatory retirement of vintage fighters and either definite upgradation of legacy systems (mid life upgrades) or else retiring them outright.
Jaguar Darin III Upgrade becomes critical but then again it cannot postpone retirement beyond 2028-30 time frame. Its a costly upgrade again.
IAF would be top heavy FGFA 127 MKI 350 means heavy config - close to 500 vs Low config LCA MK1 - around 60-100 and LCA MK2 150-200 (excluding the retired birds and rough indication of major birds numbers) - Hig "IF" nos for Low end (MK1 and MK2 ~300)
Lack of Medium Class fighter till 2025 as MK2 would take time to mature into a competitve bird
AMCA project would mean shifting focus from MK2 so AMCA would either be shelved or delayed
Uptill 2030 or uptill MK2 production is closer to 100 birds, IAF would feel a bit squeezed and less comfortable
MOD/Indian Government

Nagging IAF telling on face about critical shortage of squadrons
LCA MK2 is NO RAFALE even in the year 2030. The years of flying Rafale and experienced gained cannot be squeezed into LCA MK2 in 15 years till 2030
The war footing priority would mean extended focus on HAL and DRDO to make India self sufficient. Again that would mean higher efficiency and change in approach at management and cadre level.
Risk of not seriously viewed as buyers but rather window shopper
Possibly loss or lowering of trust in Indo French relation meaning a partner and a friend who sided with us even after Pokhran 2 may not outrightly support us for everything.
Indo Russia and Indo US relation would be at logger head. - Hot engine tech from USA and over dependecy on GE 414 for LCMK2 would mean we have to at times support USA postures leaving us with less diplomatic freedom. the more closness would also mean higher anxiety with Russia and straight forward better Russia-Pak military relationship
A possible change in Regime (read INC instead of BJP) may lead to either slowdown in decision making or grinding halt to urgency in priortised program thereby jeopardizing the national interests. HAL/DRDO are not having performance bonds nor are penalised for delays.
Delay in meeting timelines, cost over runs and quick replacement via foreign parts would mean less than envisioned indigenous capability and less maturity of critical technology capability assimilation among defence industry

The risk seems to outrun in case of collapse of rafale deal according to my analysis.Pls add more points to each of the heads and let us then conclude whats the best solution- either the rafale deal or whats their without rafale. Let us have more concrete debate on these lines.

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## Barmaley

So how many of Su-30MKI India needs If the Rafale deal will not be signed?


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## sancho

jha said:


> Not an empty threat or, cheap trick. This is being seriously considered as Russians have offered a very good deal.



If there would had been such a proposal or even any serious considerations of the Indian side, the news would had came out after the visit of Putin and not just now all of the sudden, with the remark on Dassault and Rafale. Especially the Russian side had boasted about it in the media, but nothing of that sort happened right?
On the other side the DM even confirmed talks with Dassault are going on after the visit of his French counterpart and IAF is on record that they don't want the overdependance on Russia and aiming for a medium class fighter. 



jha said:


> France has really not understood the difference in approach of new govt. If accepted, it will result in faster induction of much cheaper planes. EF is out.



 Actually the new government is on the same line as the former and IAF, by strictly pointing on HAL being the prime interrogator and the EF is not out, since it never was rejected from the competition. 



jha said:


> Exactly... We are excluded for Now. They "might" sell us the whole Production line for Rafale in future. "Might" is the key word here and when dealing with France, this "might" becomes even more important. I would rather not trust their empty promises. Their record is rather dismal and leaves a lot to be desired.



I can understand the frustration and even I am warning since 2013 that Dassault is risking the deal and it got more and more evident over time. But the fact however remains, that the fighter still is capable and the technical / industrial offer still will be very good (keep in mind that the DM confirmed that ToT is complying to our demands) and especially the latter is a crucial point, since neither LCA nor MKI can offer us new ToT and offset to boost the industry, that's why it needs to be an M-MRCA that we have to procure, be it the EF or Rafale. 
The sad thing is, that Dassault is not seeing the potential for Rafale, with India as a proper partner. Not only that joint developments had improved the fighter far more, but it had helped French forces to get what they wanted, it had increased the export potential by adding capabilities and reduced the overall costs. Sagem alone would had benefitted so much, if India could had been a partner for AASM or MICA upgrades, that could had been integrated on other Indian fighters too. Now they face the stop of AASM production line and a very bleak future potential for MICA NG, since even if Rafale will be exported, most customers will take METEOR as the prime EM missiles, leaving only MICA IR as interesting in low numbers.



PARIKRAMA said:


> A critical question is how much hit Indian Image will take in case Rafale deals falls apart?



What image? We already are seen as a no country with low reliability and efficiency in the procurement of arms. We issue tenders, scrap them and re issue them again and again. This is just the icing of the cake, if we would not get to select one of the M-MRCA's


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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> If there would had been such a proposal or even any serious considerations of the Indian side, the news would had came out after the visit of Putin and not just now all of the sudden, with the remark on Dassault and Rafale. Especially the Russian side had boasted about it in the media, but nothing of that sort happened right?
> On the other side the DM even confirmed talks with Dassault are going on after the visit of his French counterpart and IAF is on record that they don't want the overdependance on Russia and aiming for a medium class fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the new government is on the same line as the former and IAF, by strictly pointing on HAL being the prime interrogator and the EF is not out, since it never was rejected from the competition.
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand the frustration and even I am warning since 2013 that Dassault is risking the deal and it got more and more evident over time. But the fact however remains, that the fighter still is capable and the technical / industrial offer still will be very good (keep in mind that the DM confirmed that ToT is complying to our demands) and especially the latter is a crucial point, since neither LCA nor MKI can offer us new ToT and offset to boost the industry, that's why it needs to be an M-MRCA that we have to procure, be it the EF or Rafale.
> The sad thing is, that Dassault is not seeing the potential for Rafale, with India as a proper partner. Not only that joint developments had improved the fighter far more, but it had helped French forces to get what they wanted, it had increased the export potential by adding capabilities and reduced the overall costs. Sagem alone would had benefitted so much, if India could had been a partner for AASM or MICA upgrades, that could had been integrated on other Indian fighters too. Now they face the stop of AASM production line and a very bleak future potential for MICA NG, since even if Rafale will be exported, most customers will take METEOR as the prime EM missiles, leaving only MICA IR as interesting in low numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> What image? We already are seen as a no country with low reliability and efficiency in the procurement of arms. We issue tenders, scrap them and re issue them again and again. This is just the icing of the cake, if we would not get to select one of the M-MRCA's




MMRCA is very important but we must make it clear to the a French 
Comply with our demands or Go Fook yourselves


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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> MMRCA is very important but we must make it clear to the a French
> Comply with our demands or Go Fook yourselves



Please lets not go over board because of the valid frustration with Dassault! We shouldn't generalise nor be offending because of this issue.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> Please lets not go over board because of the valid frustration with Dassault! We shouldn't generalise nor be offending because of this issue.



To put it as "leniently" as possible. This is essentially a deadlock between an expensive vendor and a thrifty buyer. It was always going to a be a haggle.

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## Donatello

So if deal is signed in 2015, first squadron jet don't arrive until 2018?
Hmm......the program extends well into 2025 then.


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## Hindustani78

sancho said:


> Mirage 2000 emptyweight - 7500Kg
> Gripen E - 8000Kg
> F16 Block 52 - 9200Kg
> Rafale - 9500Kg
> F16 IN - with AESA, IRST, CFTs with refuelling probe..., around 9900Kg
> 
> 
> 
> Because it's not a medium class fighter.




Indian Airforce Delegationhas gone to Czech for The Gripens in November


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> To put it as "leniently" as possible. This is essentially a deadlock between an expensive vendor and a thrifty buyer. It was always going to a be a haggle.



That would be the case, if the costs are the prime issue, but that's not the point, since the DM precisely stated that Dassault is not complying to IAFs / MoDs demands on workshare and responsibility. These things however were known for years and it's rather disappointing that Dassault is delaying and risking things to such an extend.



Hindustani78 said:


> Indian Airforce Delegationhas gone to Czech *for The Gripens* in November



It was more a good will visit to the Czech counterparts and not for the fighter since they have only Gripen C/Ds and the Gripen was rejected from the M-MRCA.


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## Stephen Cohen

Oscar said:


> To put it as "leniently" as possible. This is essentially a deadlock between an expensive vendor and a thrifty buyer. It was always going to a be a haggle.



It is NOT about the money ie there is no haggling over price

It is about responsibility ; if Dassault does not take FULL responsibility
then the whole programme comes to a halt with the first problem in a 
Made in India - Rafale

And Dassault *can *take care of QA/ QC issues with
proper transfer of know how and technology to India

Then we will be able to make perfect planes

BUT Dassault is worried about HAL 's abilities and WE are worried that
Dassault will wash off its hands once HAL starts manufacturing planes in India


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## SQ8

PARIKRAMA said:


> Lets look into 2 more angles
> IAF issues
> 
> Critical shortage in squadron numbers with mandatory retirement of vintage fighters and either definite upgradation of legacy systems (mid life upgrades) or else retiring them outright.
> Jaguar Darin III Upgrade becomes critical but then again it cannot postpone retirement beyond 2028-30 time frame. Its a costly upgrade again.
> IAF would be top heavy FGFA 127 MKI 350 means heavy config - close to 500 vs Low config LCA MK1 - around 60-100 and LCA MK2 150-200 (excluding the retired birds and rough indication of major birds numbers) - Hig "IF" nos for Low end (MK1 and MK2 ~300)
> Lack of Medium Class fighter till 2025 as MK2 would take time to mature into a competitve bird
> AMCA project would mean shifting focus from MK2 so AMCA would either be shelved or delayed
> Uptill 2030 or uptill MK2 production is closer to 100 birds, IAF would feel a bit squeezed and less comfortable
> MOD/Indian Government
> 
> Nagging IAF telling on face about critical shortage of squadrons
> LCA MK2 is NO RAFALE even in the year 2030. The years of flying Rafale and experienced gained cannot be squeezed into LCA MK2 in 15 years till 2030
> The war footing priority would mean extended focus on HAL and DRDO to make India self sufficient. Again that would mean higher efficiency and change in approach at management and cadre level.
> Risk of not seriously viewed as buyers but rather window shopper
> Possibly loss or lowering of trust in Indo French relation meaning a partner and a friend who sided with us even after Pokhran 2 may not outrightly support us for everything.
> Indo Russia and Indo US relation would be at logger head. - Hot engine tech from USA and over dependecy on GE 414 for LCMK2 would mean we have to at times support USA postures leaving us with less diplomatic freedom. the more closness would also mean higher anxiety with Russia and straight forward better Russia-Pak military relationship
> A possible change in Regime (read INC instead of BJP) may lead to either slowdown in decision making or grinding halt to urgency in priortised program thereby jeopardizing the national interests. HAL/DRDO are not having performance bonds nor are penalised for delays.
> Delay in meeting timelines, cost over runs and quick replacement via foreign parts would mean less than envisioned indigenous capability and less maturity of critical technology capability assimilation among defence industry
> 
> The risk seems to outrun in case of collapse of rafale deal according to my analysis.Pls add more points to each of the heads and let us then conclude whats the best solution- either the rafale deal or whats their without rafale. Let us have more concrete debate on these lines.



There is a middle way but time is of the essence. The IAF can put down a bid for UAE's Mirage-2000s along with those from Qatar.. there are additional Mirage airframes available in France itself. The French will haggle on the costs but a simple arm twist on the Scorpenes along with temptations on the Eurocopter bids for Helicopter projects might get some concessions. To further the deal along, the Rafale can still be proposed for the IACs which will keep the French interested. 

As a result the IAF will still get a good 110 Medium Strike jets which when coupled with its 60 odd Mig-29 UPGs will provide a good medium fleet till the AMCA project comes online.



Stephen Cohen said:


> It is NOT about the money ie there is no haggling over price
> 
> It is about *responsibility* ; if Dassault does not take FULL responsibility
> then the whole programme comes to a halt with the first problem in a
> Made in India - Rafale
> 
> And Dassault *can *take care of QA/ QC issues with
> proper transfer of know how and technology to India
> 
> Then we will be able to make perfect planes
> 
> BUT Dassault is worried about HAL 's abilities and WE are worried that
> Dassault will wash off its hands once HAL starts manufacturing planes in India



And what happens if the party whose responsibility it is has a problem? They end up paying.. hence costs.

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## surya kiran

Oscar said:


> There is a middle way but time is of the essence. The IAF can put down a bid for UAE's Mirage-2000s along with those from Qatar.. there are additional Mirage airframes available in France itself. The French will haggle on the costs but a simple arm twist on the Scorpenes along with temptations on the Eurocopter bids for Helicopter projects might get some concessions. To further the deal along, the Rafale can still be proposed for the IACs which will keep the French interested.
> 
> As a result the IAF will still get a good 110 Medium Strike jets which when coupled with its 60 odd Mig-29 UPGs will provide a good medium fleet till the AMCA project comes online.
> 
> 
> 
> And what happens if the party whose responsibility it is has a problem? They end up paying.. hence costs.



The problem arises in not having a time frame to close negotiations. Had this been the case, we would have initiated talks with the EF consortium. The danger arising now, as you pointed out, is of time. If we start negotiating with EF in mid 2015, then you are looking at closing negotiations in mid 2016. And then delivery of the squadrons gets even more delayed and closer to an optimistic LCA Mk2 deadline.


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## sancho

surya kiran said:


> If we start negotiating with EF in mid 2015, then you are looking at closing negotiations in mid 2016. And then delivery of the squadrons gets even more delayed and closer to an optimistic LCA Mk2 deadline.



Not necessarily, it just depends on how you would go on with the EF order. If the IAF is ok with taking EF T3As as a stop gap, you can buy 2 or even more squads in a government to government sale, before a single LCA MK2 would role out. What needs more time is the industrial part of the licence production, where the EF vendors need to find appropriate Indian partners to divert production parts. Dassault needed 2 years to comply to this part of the tender, but given the available relations of BAE, Airbus, Rolls Royce..., with the Indian industry, it don't have to take as long too.

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## Hindustani78

sancho said:


> It was more a good will visit to the Czech counterparts and not for the fighter since they have only Gripen C/Ds and the Gripen was rejected from the M-MRCA.



There was one article on business standard 
October 30 2014 
Brazil chooses Gripen over Rafale | Business Standard News


Indian Navy's need for the Sea Gripen for two carriers that Cochin Shipyard is building - the 40,000-tonne INS Vikrant and a larger, yet unnamed, successor referred to as the Future Indigenous Carrier.

The DRDO was also hoping to learn from Saab's maintenance philosophy, which has made the Gripen the world's most easy-to-maintain fighter. According to independent estimations, the Gripen requires three to five man-hours of maintenance per flight hour. That means, after an hour-long mission, 6-10 technicians require only 30 minutes to put the fighter back in the air.


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## sancho

Hindustani78 said:


> There was one article on business standard
> October 30 2014



Author Ajay Shukla, that's enough in most of the cases to realize the value of the article. IN has no interest in the Sea Gripen, they didn't even sent the RFI for naval M-MRCAs to Saab, which is telling enough.
DRDO has shown interest in Saab, but far too late and without any logical sense. The chose Dassault for minor design consultancy, wanted LM to consult on navalising, ended up with Airbus and now wants Saab to consult on MK2, which once again only shows how poor DRDO's management skills are.


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## Hulk

sancho said:


> Exactly, just as a threat to canel the whole tender, but that's a cheap threat, since everybody knows that IAF will never go for more MKIs to make itself more dependent on Russia, nor that IAF want more heavy class fighters, with 200+ FGFA on the list anyway. So that's a a pretty silly bluff and the only chance to actually put pressure on Dassault is the EF.
> 
> 
> 
> I never said that India will be excluded, but that Dassault is focusing only on French requirements and not on joint requirements and seeing us as a partner. They might offer us joint production of parts developed mainly for the French forces, but does that help our requirements? We probably will see a more customized Rafale for India, based on the upgrades Dassault develops for France.


@sancho I think we should seriously look at alternatives in case this does not work out. For the first time, I am not 100% confident. I think we should start discussion with EF or Grippen, what do you say? We should explore at-least one more deal in parallel, like discussing the offset clause. That way we can get a replacement sooner.



jha said:


> Not an empty threat or, cheap trick. This is being seriously considered as Russians have offered a very good deal. IAF is most probably on board. France has really not understood the difference in approach of new govt. If accepted, it will result in faster induction of much cheaper planes. EF is out.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly... We are excluded for Now. They "might" sell us the whole Production line for Rafale in future. "Might" is the key word here and when dealing with France, this "might" becomes even more important. I would rather not trust their empty promises. Their record is rather dismal and leaves a lot to be desired.


What is the sweet deal?


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## sancho

indianrabbit said:


> @sancho I think we should seriously look at alternatives in case this does not work out. For the first time, I am not 100% confident. I think we should start discussion with EF or Grippen, what do you say? We should explore at-least one more deal in parallel, like discussing the offset clause. That way we can get a replacement sooner.



Well my confidence level on Dassault is constantly reducing since 2012, since they didn't aimed on getting the most out for the fighter, but mainly at benefits for them as a company. We can't blame them for negotiating with their best interest in mind, that's business, but "their" best interest was not the best interest for the fighter!
The alternative to Rafale remains to be the EF, since it was selected as the L2 and therefor as the 2nd option for negotiations, while Rafale was the "prefered" option. If the L1 doesn't offer what we wanted, logic tells us to talk to the L2 and as I explained in post #31, the EF is actually the fastes option to counter ruduction of squad numbers, if we are ok with T3A's and more fighters from European production lines. The only problem with EF is the high costs, which even if reduced after the election, should be still higher than the Rafale. 
Gripen is out of question since it's under development only and performance specs as well as costs keep changing till the final production version will be available.

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## Stephen Cohen

@sancho

The Rafale Contract Document has already reached 15000 Pages

It is said that 90 % issues have been agreed to

Now if we go to Eurofighter ;we will have to EXPLAIN to them what France had agreed to
and what we want

Do you think that Eurofighter Consortium will accept all our demands quickly
without wasting time

It will take ANOTHER Three years to convince them

Hence SUKHOI is the Only Option 

And you know what MOST of the officials who are negotiating with France
will simply REFUSE to undergo such a torturous exercise again

How will this massive waste of time ENHANCE some body's career
They are also career minded people

Then we will have to form another team ; those officials will start
afresh from the beginning ; IT will be a never ending delay


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## SQ8

surya kiran said:


> The problem arises in not having a time frame to close negotiations. Had this been the case, we would have initiated talks with the EF consortium. The danger arising now, as you pointed out, is of time. If we start negotiating with EF in mid 2015, then you are looking at closing negotiations in mid 2016. And then delivery of the squadrons gets even more delayed and closer to an optimistic LCA Mk2 deadline.



Hence the more realistic timeframe for the M2K purchase. The biggest advantage is the savings for trainings and logistics both in cost and time.


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## Stephen Cohen

Oscar said:


> And what happens if the party whose responsibility it is has a problem? They end up paying.. hence costs.



First let Dassault accept the responsibility and workshare agreement
IN principle ; only then they might ask for an additional price


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## sancho

Stephen Cohen said:


> @sancho
> 
> The Rafale Contract Document has already reached 15000 Pages
> 
> It is said that 90 % issues have been agreed to
> 
> Now if we go to Eurofighter ;we will have to EXPLAIN to them what France had agreed to
> and what we want



It doesn't matter what contracts Dassault has made so far, all that counts is, if they can comply to our demands, if they don't we can simply move to the EF consortium and talk to them. In fact, in this case we don't even have to start proper negotiations, but a simple inquiry how they see the liability issue and how they would comply to that demand would be enough to see if we want to put the negotiations with Dassault on hold.



Stephen Cohen said:


> Do you think that Eurofighter Consortium will accept all our demands quickly
> without wasting time



We only can find that out if we talk to them right?



Oscar said:


> Hence the more realistic timeframe for the M2K purchase. The biggest advantage is the savings for trainings and logistics both in cost and time.



That's not possible and is not even faster, simply by the fact that those M2Ks would need replacements first, before any of the countries would sell them to us. The UAE has no interest to sell their M2Ks, because they are very happy with them, they even keep upgrading them nearly every year. Qatar will need to select a new fighter and only when delivery of that starts, they will sell off their M2K-5s, the French once are old and with the reduction of Rafale orders, they want to keep their M2K-5s too. You can even add the fact that we would have to negotiate with 3 different customers to get the fighters, most of them would need upgrades to extend their life and get them to the technical level IAF upgrade their M2K too...
M2Ks was a choice in the early 2000s, but from the switch to M-MRCA that option is not possible anymore.


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## Stephen Cohen

@sancho

When the winner of Eurofighter / Rafale contest was declared it was
Said that India would be ENTERING into *Exclusive negotiations with only ONE Party 
at a time *

All negotiations are held in good faith ; we would be violating our own undertaking
by talking in parallel to both of them

And practically too it is not useful 
Why will ONE side agree to something if the other is reluctant

Both can refuse our CONDITIONS simultaneously or show dis interest

Where does that leave us ; we will be running around in circles

That is why we are trying our best to get the BEST out of one party atleast


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## JanjaWeed

*India mulls switching from Rafale to Su30MKIs*






The Indian Air Force is planning to field over 270 Su-30MKI fighters in 14 squadrons.​
For the first time since January 31, 2012, when the French Rafale fighter was chosen as the future medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF), it has been officially admitted that there are serious problems in negotiating the purchase with the French vendor, Dassault. the Indian Business Standardreports.​
Speaking to the media on Tuesday evening, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said there were “complications” in the negotiations, already on for almost three years, with the French side reluctant to meet commitments that IAF had specified in the tender. Parrikar mentioned that local production of Su-30 MKI by HAL would be adequate for the Indian Air Force (IAF) in case India will not procure the Rafale.


Past reports cited the reluctance of the French side to assume responsibility for the local production of 108 Rafales by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), mandated by the tender.

The IAF currently plans to have 272 Su-30MKI fighters by about 2018. HAL’s Nashik production line is building the fighter at $56 million each (358 crore Inr.), less than half the estimated cost of the Rafale.

In another reversal of previous ruling, Parrikar reiterated his intention to permit foreign arms companies to station “representatives or technical consultants” in India. India imposed a ban on ‘agents’ that after the Bofors gun scandal of 1987-88.

“Changes will be made to the Defence Procurement Policy. Company representatives will be allowed but commission, or percentage of profit for the deals will not be allowed.” Parrikar said, adding that representatives have to be registered with the ministry and remuneration shall be declared by the company.

According to The Tribune, a draft of the changed policy is ready and the final draft will be ready in the next few days and the process will be completed in 45 days. “The interests of the military would be taken care off” Parrikar declared.

Parrikar also indicated that may opt to lift lift the ban on blacklisted firms if the equipment they supply is crucial to the armed forces. The Minister made it clear that “success fees will not be allowed”. The Minister gave an example that Bharat Earth Movers Ltd (BEML) has been allowed to deal with the original Tatra company but not Tatra UK, which was banned following allegations of kick-backs.

India mulls switching from Rafale to Su30MKIs | Defense Update:

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## Nodata

India should 126 Eurofighters. 

Better than refail


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## Malik Alashter

I just wonder why not either the F-18 super hornet or the F-16 B70 they are cheaper and equel if not better, plus there is no problem between India and the US of A.


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## Supply&Demand

Malik Alashter said:


> I just wonder why not either the F-18 super hornet or the F-16 B70 they are cheaper and equel if not better, plus there is no problem between India and the US of A.


a) USA has not agreed to Transfer of Technology for f-16 and f-18
b) the shell life for these 2 planes is less now as they were developed in late 70s and early 80s..comparatively rafale and EF are new and they can b by IAF for a very long time...foe 3-4 decades with upgrades


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## Hindustani78

sancho said:


> Author Ajay Shukla, that's enough in most of the cases to realize the value of the article. IN has no interest in the Sea Gripen, they didn't even sent the RFI for naval M-MRCAs to Saab, which is telling enough.
> DRDO has shown interest in Saab, but far too late and without any logical sense. The chose Dassault for minor design consultancy, wanted LM to consult on navalising, ended up with Airbus and now wants Saab to consult on MK2, which once again only shows how poor DRDO's management skills are.



Is there anything wrong with the Author ? 

That visit was important for DRDO and i do think more or less all these deals are related to the technology transfers and if DRDO get good offer for SAAB group then there is nothing wrong in that. 

Saab And The Kalyani Group are working for air defence projects including the VSHORAD and SRSAM requirements.


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## jha

indianrabbit said:


> @sancho I think we should seriously look at alternatives in case this does not work out. For the first time, I am not 100% confident. I think we should start discussion with EF or Grippen, what do you say? We should explore at-least one more deal in parallel, like discussing the offset clause. That way we can get a replacement sooner.
> 
> 
> What is the sweet deal?



Faster and cheaper flankers most probably.


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## Hindustani78

Supply&Demand said:


> a) USA has not agreed to Transfer of Technology for f-16 and f-18
> b) the shell life for these 2 planes is less now as they were developed in late 70s and early 80s..comparatively rafale and EF are new and they can b by IAF for a very long time...foe 3-4 decades with upgrades




Here only the option is open and during the visit of President Obama , GoI can talk regarding technology transfer and if we get better deal from United states then we can move ahead.

Global Hawk deal even get finalized in which Indian navy is showing interest.


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## Donatello

sancho said:


> Well my confidence level on Dassault is constantly reducing since 2012, since they didn't aimed on getting the most out for the fighter, but mainly at benefits for them as a company. We can't blame them for negotiating with their best interest in mind, that's business, but "their" best interest was not the best interest for the fighter!
> The alternative to Rafale remains to be the EF, since it was selected as the L2 and therefor as the 2nd option for negotiations, while Rafale was the "prefered" option. If the L1 doesn't offer what we wanted, logic tells us to talk to the L2 and as I explained in post #31, the EF is actually the fastes option to counter ruduction of squad numbers, if we are ok with T3A's and more fighters from European production lines. The only problem with EF is the high costs, which even if reduced after the election, should be still higher than the Rafale.
> Gripen is out of question since it's under development only and performance specs as well as costs keep changing till the final production version will be available.



Contracts like these take time, doesn't matter whether you are purchasing a combat aircraft or a civilian airliner. Take for example the current pending case of the Japanese Airline Skymark, who ordered A380s, Airbus built them and then Skymark went bust and Airbus is suing them for lost revenue. With complex machines and billions of dollars, there will always be conflicting interests. In a contract each side will secure it's own interest. 
If Dassault loses the deal, it affect their industry, but they won't be extinct. India on the other hand will lose a capable future asset which they themselves picked as number 1 for a reason. Now, the longer this gets delayed, the longer it will take to complete the program. If they haven't managed to sign the contract, just imagine what issues are gonna pop up when delivery begins, and above all, local assembly begins. So unless IAF increases the numbers now, squadron strength is gonna reduce anyway in the next 5-10 years.

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## sancho

Hindustani78 said:


> Is there anything wrong with the Author ?



He is known to report a lot of BS just to sensationalise things, his knowledge in the aviation field is especially low.



Donatello said:


> If Dassault loses the deal, it affect their industry, but they won't be extinct. India on the other hand will lose a capable future asset which they themselves picked as number 1 for a reason.



On the contrary, losing the M-MRCA is a big hit for Rafale (not for Dassault though), since it's export potential will be even further lowered. Dassault is hoping to reduce costs of the fighter by producing parts in India, they even tried to provide Switzerland with a lower offer after Indian selected Rafale as L1.
For India on the other side, the options are still open. Within M-MRCA itself, the EF stands with the same, if not even more industrial advantages that we aim on and even in the worst case scenarion and the M-MRCA is cancelled, at least the operational capability of the IAF can be countered to an extend with more LCAs and MKIs, even if that's not the ideal situation IAF has hoped for. 



Donatello said:


> So unless IAF increases the numbers now, squadron strength is gonna reduce anyway in the next 5-10 years.



The squadron number is a hyped issue and the increase of the order doesn't change anything, since the capacity of production is the important point. Even if we order 200 Rafales today, we will get only 1 squad till 2018, because the production line can't offer more at the moment, while we would get far more EF's, could order additional MKIs from Irkut or increase the production capacity of LCA MK1 and add another squadron too. Even without M-MRCA we would have 34 squads by 2019, before LCA MK2 and FGFA would come in.


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## Hindustani78

sancho said:


> He is known to report a lot of BS just to sensationalise things, his knowledge in the aviation field is especially low..



But here its a known fact that DRDO Chief showed interest in Saab Gripen.


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## sancho

Hindustani78 said:


> But here its a known fact that DRDO Chief showed interest in Saab Gripen.



So? That has no importance to the M-MRCA, since IAF / MoD have rejected the fighter. DRDO only was interested in learning from Saab, since it's a similar class of fighter as LCA, but that's what I said comes far too late, they should had teamed up with Saab at the begining, not at the end.

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## Hindustani78

sancho said:


> So? That has no importance to the M-MRCA, since IAF / MoD have rejected the fighter. DRDO only was interested in learning from Saab, since it's a similar class of fighter as LCA, but that's what I said comes far too late, they should had teamed up with Saab at the begining, not at the end.



Here its more about technology transfers and if Saab group is already for that then DRDO still can go for Tejas Airframes and engines. 

Have recently gone through one article , be it Eurofighter and Rafale , the profit will be going to Airbus, France and Marcel Dassault family industrial group (GIMD). i do know that this deal would be most important for France and EU . in Airbus France, Germany and the UK will get the profit. Hope Indians even in EU will get some benefits in all this at least some dignity and respect.



French state and Airbus play chess with Dassault shares | Ares


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## Harisudan

jha said:


> Su-30s ordered till date are supposed to enter IAF by 2019 if I am not wrong. Ordering another hundred of these will run the production line for another 5 years ( If a new production line is not created for these extra planes ).
> 
> Su-30MKI is being produced now in HAL from Raw materials. Just count the number of years HAL has taken to absorb the TOT. We can safely assume Rafale's will take similar time. That means HAL will either assemble from kits manufactured by OEMs from France ( with manufacturing fe sub systems ofcourse to show off as TOT ) or, take its own sweet time to absorb TOT. In either case, there is no use to spend so much money as the planes will come too late for augmenting the falling numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> Both are big IFs.
> 
> 
> 
> First MRCA choice was Mirage. Later the competition was opened up for rather heavy fighters like Rafale, Typhoon and SH. LCA-II will be in similar class of Mirage.
> 
> 
> 
> If Scorpene deal is any indication, we Will pay ~$ 20 Bill. for 126 planes itself. There always will be some difficulty or, other on our Industries to deliver sub-systems in time and we will be forced to source them from OEMs, jacking up the cost.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats why local Aerospace industries should be encouraged by investing in them. If France's decision to block Russian Mistral ( which was paid by Russia ) is any indication, they are no more neutral and are influenced by NATO's decisions. We should be careful with them as well.



Man, trust me, the Time taken for absorbing the Russian TOT will definitely be more than that of the French one..U know how much pain in the A$$ it was to interpret the Russian drawings that comes from Irkut..
We always had to ring back the Russians to clarify the Doubts..
it was nasty and messy..


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## halloweene

Last round of negociations starting in incoming days ("off" information). Every side will try pressuring the other. Common practice.


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Every side will try pressuring the other. Common practice.



Just that Dassault is not in the position to put pressure on India, it either remains stubborn and don't comply to the requirements, or it moves on for the sake of the Rafale itself.
Indias stand is clear for years, be it the former MoD, the current MoD or IAF, all of them insist on Dassault complying to the requirements and if Dassault can't it's either the L2 is the alternative, while the back up plan for the M-MRCA tender as such, would be LCAs and MKIs (although I would prefer Pak Fa directly from Russia).


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## Mujraparty

They claimed that while the deal was initially for about Rs 42,000 crore, French are seeking a higher price now. This, the sources said, *has put the price at a "little more than double the cost"*.

"Rafale was selected in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder.* The difference in cost with the second bidder was razor thin. With cost now more than double, how can it be the lowest bidder*," the sources said, explaining why the negotiation for a final contract has been taking so much time.

Read more at:
Ball is in France's court: India on Rafale deal - The Economic Times


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## sancho

eowyn said:


> "Rafale was selected in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder.* The difference in cost with the second bidder was razor thin. With cost now more than double, how can it be the lowest bidder*," the sources said, explaining why the negotiation for a final contract has been taking so much time.



That's BS, neither was the cost between L1 and L2 reported to be close, nor did we negotiated the costs for all these years, but we waited for Dassault to comply to the tender requirements. Cost negotiations in fact, could only have started after MoD approved the ToT and offset bid of Dassault. Not to forget, that if the costs had doubled, we the EF would be cheaper now and MoD would have started talking to them long ago.

There is no official and NAMED source of the MoD or IAF, that ever stated an issue based on costs, the whole problem is based on workshare and contract issues!


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## PARIKRAMA

As i said in another thread, lets wait for Rafale related french delegation to come for the talks. We would know if Rafale deal is thru or not, post that will also come to know about the actual cost.

Till that time the decision in real is out (contract signing) its gonna be a kite flying festival with all sharpened manjas (thread) with lots of khech (pulling) and dheel (letting the thread easy)


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## halloweene

sancho said:


> Just that Dassault is not in the position to put pressure on India, it either remains stubborn and don't comply to the requirements, or it moves on for the sake of the Rafale itself.
> Indias stand is clear for years, be it the former MoD, the current MoD or IAF, all of them insist on Dassault complying to the requirements and if Dassault can't it's either the L2 is the alternative, while the back up plan for the M-MRCA tender as such, would be LCAs and MKIs (although I would prefer Pak Fa directly from Russia).


Why do you forget to mention the opposite view, the diplomat that said to jorno read the RFP, there is nothing like full liability of OEM?
CNC (indian gov.)do not trust HAL. As simple as that (be they right or wrong is another debate). So they want to ADD a clause that wasn't in RFP about liability.


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## Hindustani78

Harisudan said:


> Man, trust me, the Time taken for absorbing the Russian TOT will definitely be more than that of the French one..U know how much pain in the A$$ it was to interpret the Russian drawings that comes from Irkut..
> We always had to ring back the Russians to clarify the Doubts..
> it was nasty and messy..



then how we are going to interpret French drawing ?



halloweene said:


> Last round of negociations starting in incoming days ("off" information). Every side will try pressuring the other. Common practice.



I think GoI will decide after 26th January



eowyn said:


> They claimed that while the deal was initially for about Rs 42,000 crore, French are seeking a higher price now. This, the sources said, *has put the price at a "little more than double the cost"*.
> 
> "Rafale was selected in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder.* The difference in cost with the second bidder was razor thin. With cost now more than double, how can it be the lowest bidder*," the sources said, explaining why the negotiation for a final contract has been taking so much time.
> 
> Read more at:
> Ball is in France's court: India on Rafale deal - The Economic Times




Here its even about technology transfer and guarantee of the spares and the biggest thing is cost. When oil prices are low in international market then why the price is increasing instead of decreasing.



sancho said:


> That's BS, neither was the cost between L1 and L2 reported to be close, nor did we negotiated the costs for all these years, but we waited for Dassault to comply to the tender requirements. Cost negotiations in fact, could only have started after MoD approved the ToT and offset bid of Dassault. Not to forget, that if the costs had doubled, we the EF would be cheaper now and MoD would have started talking to them long ago.
> 
> There is no official and NAMED source of the MoD or IAF, that ever stated an issue based on costs, the whole problem is based on workshare and contract issues!




When International oil market is having lower prices and even international gold prices are down then why is this that the cost of the fighter plane is not decreasing but keep on increasing ?


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Why do you forget to mention the opposite view, the diplomat that said to jorno read the RFP, there is nothing like full liability of OEM?


Which diplomate said that? Any Indian official?



halloweene said:


> *CNC (indian gov.)do not trust HAL*. As simple as that (be they right or wrong is another debate). So they want to ADD a clause that wasn't in RFP about liability.



Which is plain wrong, because if that would had been the case, the NDA government had agreed to Dassaults try to divert greater workshare to Reliance and would not keep insisting on Dassault fulfilling the original requirements. Nobody other than Dassault is complaining about HAL here and that with obvious double standards and the government is clear about the workshare, because they want Dassault to be hold accountable, just as BAE is for example for the Hawk deal.



Hindustani78 said:


> When International oil market is having lower prices and even international gold prices are down then why is this that the cost of the fighter plane is not decreasing but keep on increasing ?



The one has nothing to do with the other. Fighters with more upgrades gets costlier, fighters that will not be produced in large numbers will remain at high costs.


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## Hindustani78

sancho said:


> The one has nothing to do with the other. Fighters with more upgrades gets costlier, fighters that will not be produced in large numbers will remain at high costs.




Dassault has lost out bids for the aircraft in Singapore, Morocco, South Korea, Norway, Netherlands, Brazil, Switzerland and UAE too rejected Rafale and its India which has agreed for the Rafale fighter plane and this deal in real is more important for Dassault as it would create 10,000 jobs and already French Government has invested enough in the development of this fighter plane. 

This deal would be good not only for the French but even for EU over all and India will be more closer to EU in many aspects.


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## sancho

Hindustani78 said:


> Dassault has lost out bids for the aircraft in Singapore, Morocco, South Korea, Norway, Netherlands, Brazil, Switzerland and UAE too rejected Rafale and its India which has agreed for the Rafale fighter plane and this deal in real is more important for Dassault as it would create 10,000 jobs and already French Government has invested enough in the development of this fighter plane.
> 
> This deal would be good not only for the French but even for EU over all and India will be more closer to EU in many aspects.



You are mistaken, since only 18 fighters will be build in France and the content of the produced parts in India will constantly grow, therefor the jobs will mainly created in India, which is even the point of the whole competition, to increase the industrial capability in India.


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## Hindustani78

sancho said:


> You are mistaken, since only 18 fighters will be build in France and the content of the produced parts in India will constantly grow, therefor the jobs will mainly created in India, which is even the point of the whole competition, to increase the industrial capability in India.



You are saying that all the spares of that fighter plane will be produced in India ? India is already having the industrial capabilities within India , Do you think that HAL is not having industrial capabilities ? By successfully conducting LCA maiden flight , India has given the signal that its having Industrial capabilities. Those jobs will be created for EU nationals 

Way back in 2013 , there were article that French is going to cut Military staff

France to cut military staff by 12 percent in six-year budget| Reuters


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## sancho

Hindustani78 said:


> You are saying that all the spares of that fighter plane will be produced in India ?



No, the aim is to bring the content produced in India up to 70 or 80%, with the rest being supplied by French companies, but that small ammount will be covered by the exisiting production capabilities in France and don't add new once. Since the MKI deal, we are trying to get more and more independent from the OEM, wrt spare supply, maintenance and upgrades and with MMRCA, we try to close the gaps that the MKI deal had. That's why we demand higher ToT, higher offsets and more liability of the vendor for the whole production line, because we have seen with the Russians in MKI, the Brits in Hawk and (partially with) the French in Scorpene deals, how the production in India can be messed up, if the vendor does not support the whole license production and then India has to pay extra at the end, if not properly covered with by being able to produce the necessary parts in India, or if we can't hold the vendor accountable.


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## CONNAN

Rafale Deal: Ball is in France’s court, says India


The multi—billion dollar Rafale fighter jet contract with France has run into rough weather over a guarantee clause and steep rise in price with India making it clear that the ball is in France’s court as it looks at the option of buying more Russian Sukhoi—30 MKI warplanes as a back—up plan.

The multi—billion dollar Rafale fighter jet contract with France has run into rough weather over a guarantee clause and steep rise in price with India making it clear that the ball is in France’s court as it looks at the option of buying more Russian Sukhoi—30 MKI warplanes as a back—up plan.

India is insisting that Dassault Aviation, which manufactures Rafale, cannot renege on the Request for Proposal (RFP) clauses, which it had initially agreed to.

The situation has come to such a level that France has been forced to send an empowered delegation later this month to “solve all remaining issues” to salvage the contract.

A top Defence Ministry official here had this week admitted that there were problems and said India could consider buying more Russian—made Sukhoi—30 planes if the proposed deal with France collapsed.

Recalling the last month’s meeting between Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his French counterpart, sources said French “were told categorically to stick to the RFP”.

“The ball is in France’s court,” the sources said adding that if the “RFP is adhered to, the deal can be wrapped up soon”.

They claimed that while the deal was initially for about Rs. 42,000 crore, French are seeking a higher price now. This, the sources said, has put the price at a “little more than double the cost”.

Dassault did not comment on queries sent by PTI to it.

The French Rafale and European Eurofighter Typhoon were the only one left standing after years of tests on technical and other aspects.

“Rafale was selected in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder. The difference in cost with the second bidder was razor thin. With cost now more than double, how can it be the lowest bidder,” the sources said, explaining why the negotiation for a final contract has been taking so much time.

Another point of contention is the guarantee clause under which Rafale has to stand guarantee for the planes that would be manufactured by state-owned HAL.

As per the RFP issued in 2007, the first 18 jets are to be imported and the rest 108 manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). 

Ball is in France's court: India on Rafale deal - The Economic Times


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## Harisudan

Hindustani78 said:


> then how we are going to interpret French drawing ?


Those who know Russian Engineering design knows very well that, they follow a completely different standard in terms of Engineering..Probably GOST standard..
Where as French follow, ISO standars, which even Indians follow..That way it will be easy..


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## ACE OF THE AIR

@sancho 
Bro, do you think the French are going to crack, or is it that the Ruski will come with some better options.


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## Hindustani78

sancho said:


> No, the aim is to bring the content produced in India up to 70 or 80%, with the rest being supplied by French companies, but that small ammount will be covered by the exisiting production capabilities in France and don't add new once. Since the MKI deal, we are trying to get more and more independent from the OEM, wrt spare supply, maintenance and upgrades and with MMRCA, we try to close the gaps that the MKI deal had. That's why we demand higher ToT, higher offsets and more liability of the vendor for the whole production line, because we have seen with the Russians in MKI, the Brits in Hawk and (partially with) the French in Scorpene deals, how the production in India can be messed up, if the vendor does not support the whole license production and then India has to pay extra at the end, if not properly covered with by being able to produce the necessary parts in India, or if we can't hold the vendor accountable.



India do have industrial capabilities but still why the cost is increasing ? 


So we are going to take F3 *standard *.


*Interception and air-to-air combat* with 30mm gun and Mica IR/EM missiles (+ Meteor missiles from 2018 onwards).
*Ground support* with 30mm gun, GBU-12/24 laser-guided bombs and Hammer precision-guided bombs.
I*n depth strikes* with Scalp cruise missiles.
*Sea strikes* with the Exocet AM39 Block 2 missile and other air-to-surface weapons.
*Real-time strategic and tactical reconnaissance *with the Areos pod.
*In-flight refueling* from one Rafale to another (“buddy-buddy”).
*Nuclear deterrence* with the ASMP-A missile.

*Rafale M10* recently were delivered to French Navy based on F1 Standard in October. Rafale M for carrier based operations, and Rafale B and C for conventional airfield based operations.

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## $@rJen

Rafale Deal: Ball is in France’s court, says India












Sunday, January 04, 2015

By : The Hindu




The multi—billion dollar Rafale fighter jet contract with France has run into rough weather over a guarantee clause and steep rise in price with India making it clear that the ball is in France’s court as it looks at the option of buying more Russian Sukhoi—30 MKI warplanes as a back—up plan.






The multi—billion dollar Rafale fighter jet contract with France has run into rough weather over a guarantee clause and steep rise in price with India making it clear that the ball is in France’s court as it looks at the option of buying more Russian Sukhoi—30 MKI warplanes as a back—up plan.

India is insisting that Dassault Aviation, which manufactures Rafale, cannot renege on the Request for Proposal (RFP) clauses, which it had initially agreed to.

The situation has come to such a level that France has been forced to send an empowered delegation later this month to “solve all remaining issues” to salvage the contract.

A top Defence Ministry official here had this week admitted that there were problems and said India could consider buying more Russian—made Sukhoi—30 planes if the proposed deal with France collapsed.

Recalling the last month’s meeting between Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his French counterpart, sources said French “were told categorically to stick to the RFP”.

“The ball is in France’s court,” the sources said adding that if the “RFP is adhered to, the deal can be wrapped up soon”.

They claimed that while the deal was initially for about Rs. 42,000 crore, French are seeking a higher price now. This, the sources said, has put the price at a “little more than double the cost”.

Dassault did not comment on queries sent by PTI to it.

The French Rafale and European Eurofighter Typhoon were the only one left standing after years of tests on technical and other aspects.

“Rafale was selected in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder. The difference in cost with the second bidder was razor thin. With cost now more than double, how can it be the lowest bidder,” the sources said, explaining why the negotiation for a final contract has been taking so much time.

Another point of contention is the guarantee clause under which Rafale has to stand guarantee for the planes that would be manufactured by state-owned HAL.

As per the RFP issued in 2007, the first 18 jets are to be imported and the rest 108 manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).


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## halloweene

As we are in 2015, should be an indiaized F3-R standard.

Please paste the entire article. It is also mentioned that a high diplomatic french source said "read RFP by yourself, there is no such clause"


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## Hindustani78

halloweene said:


> As we are in 2015, should be an indiaized F3-R standard.
> 
> Please paste the entire article. It is also mentioned that a high diplomatic french source said "read RFP by yourself, there is no such clause"



F3 Standard is like upgrades from the same F1 Standard. GoI should even go for Rafale M because India is having even Aircraft Carrier.


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## sancho

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> @sancho
> Bro, do you think the French are going to crack, or is it that the Ruski will come with some better options.



The only better option the Russians can offer is Pak FA, but that comes with higher costs and is not a solution for MMRCAs that is meant to take over the bulk of IAF operations complementing the MKI. I hope Dassault (not the French in general) will come to their senses and aim on fixing the deal finally.


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## Dillinger

sancho said:


> The only better option the Russians can offer is Pak FA, but that comes with higher costs and is not a solution for MMRCAs that is meant to take over the bulk of IAF operations complementing the MKI. I hope Dassault (not the French in general) will come to their senses and aim on fixing the deal finally.



At this point even if they come to their senses the MoD might try to scuttle the deal. The capital outlay of the previous years and the current year have no provision yet for paying the percentage of acquisition cost required as the first payment. Unless some fresh outlay is mandated over and above the current allocation in the upcoming budget it is unlikely that the deal will fly through in 2015.


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## Gandhi follower

Rafale has taken India for a ride. They intentionally delayed the deal. Now cost has been more than double. India should shut the door. This is our hard earned money, Govt should not waste it for Rafale. Go for MKI and Mig29.


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## sancho

Dillinger said:


> At this point even if they come to their senses the MoD might try to scuttle the deal. The capital outlay of the previous years and the current year have no provision yet for paying the percentage of acquisition cost required as the first payment. Unless some fresh outlay is mandated over and above the current allocation in the upcoming budget it is unlikely that the deal will fly through in 2015.



AFAIK we are talking about around 10% of the acquisition costs, which is not that much of an issue, but I would expect a special budget for MMRCA anyway. But as I asked recently in another thread, what happened to the IAF budget of 2014/15 anyway? There were hardy any procurements made for IAF, so how can there not be any money left?


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## sancho

Possible mission configs of the upgraded Su 30 and Rafale in IAF

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## DrSomnath999

@sancho the great

i dont like opportunistic scavanging of someone's wrong post like some do here in this forum
but i couldnt resist the urge to intervene so kindly excuse me for that

few mistakes are there

*su 30mki configuration*

-like maximum no of air -air missile carrying capability of su 30mki is 12 not 10

no5 & no7 weapon slots if you count from left side of that pic can carry air to air missiles too

-plus you have left out R77 too & also it would have been nice if you have included some future weapons too like
brahmos M

*Rafale configuration*
- I want to tell u 1 thing air force version has one extra weapon slot compare to naval version which has an arrestor hook

2 weapon slots in the centerline fuselarge can be certified for air to air missiles too* but it has not been sanctioned yet*
so if customer requirement is there the dassault can plan to use those weapon slots for air to air missile carrying
or any PGM s too

- rafale can also 3 scalp missiles too as it can carry cruise missiles like ASMPA/EXOCET in it's center fuselarge weapon slot so it can also carry 3 scalp cruise missile if reuirement is there

also you have missed ASMPA nuclear cruise missile from rafale configuration in nuclear deterrent mission

*but nice try after all * 

*P.S a sincere request to you dont prick OLY in his rafale thread with those kind of indirect rafale bashing posts. I can understand his frustations from his india bashing posts but cant blame him on that .

after all he is a dedicated rafale enthusiast*




*CHEERS*


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## halloweene

Big delegation arriving very soon (if not already there) in India for last negociations round.


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> @sancho the great
> 
> i dont like opportunistic scavanging of someone's wrong post like some do here in this forum
> but i couldnt resist the urge to intervene so kindly excuse me for that



As usual you jumped too easily into wrong conclusions, that's why you confused "store loadouts" with "mission configs"!
Store loadouts show all hardpoints that can carry a certain payload, while a mission config shows the usual / realistic load mix for a specific mission. I never intended to show any maximum or theoretical load configs, but made them to compare both fighters with realistic mission loads, to get a better idea of the differences (especially after the MKI upgrade). That's why including hardpoints or weapons that are not cleared or even developed makes no sense.



halloweene said:


> Big delegation arriving very soon (if not already there) in India for last negociations round.



Lets hope they change things for good.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> As usual you jumped too easily into wrong conclusions, that's why you *confused*"store loadouts" with "mission configs"!
> Store loadouts show all hardpoints that can carry a certain payload, while a mission config shows the usual / realistic load mix for a specific mission. I never intended to show any maximum or theoretical load configs, but made them to compare both fighters withrealistic mission loads, to get a better idea of the differences (especially after the MKI upgrade).*That's why including hardpoints or weapons that are not cleared or even developed makes no sense.*
> .



GEEZ!!

*& as expected as usual reality denial reply post from it's as usual fantasy guru poster of this forum * 








you are right those hardpoints are really not cleared it's clearly visible from those pics
i need a P.Sed pics to prove my point now 


& also R77 & ASMPA cruise missiles are not developed & cleared for use by now meanwhile astra is cleared & already inducted

Yeah yeah i am damn confused






*CHEERS*


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> GEEZ!!
> 
> *& as expected as usual reality denial reply post from it's as usual fantasy guru poster of this forum *



It's not my fault that you have a lack of understanding (or reading in this case, since I couldn't be more obvious ), but I guess you already understood the difference now and are just in the usual denial mode when you got caught to be mistaken. Not the first and surely not the last time.


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## PARIKRAMA

halloweene said:


> Big delegation arriving very soon (if not already there) in India for last negociations round.




Need good news... better give us some inside scoop !!!


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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> Need good news... better give us some inside scoop !!!



After what happend in Paris, there won't be much attention to the negotiations in the media now, for good reasons. Sometimes there are more important things right?


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## Hulk

I am hearing that we are not going to go with Rafale and looking to add more SU30 MKI. If so what are our options, can we get an upgraded SU 30 instead of what we have now? @sancho.

Hey Sancho are you on twitter?


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## Bang Galore

Ditching Rafale -The New Indian Express

Like an able pilot with his wits about him in an out-of-control warplane, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar may be preparing to ditch Rafale touted as the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) answer, which the Indian Air Force has set its heart on procuring at any cost, and going for the more economical and sensible Su-30 option instead.

It has been repeatedly emphasised by this analyst that the IAF misconceived the MMRCA requirement, disregarded the uncommonly high costs involved in procuring the chosen Rafale and France’s past record of unmet transfer of technology promises, and the Su-30s/MiG-29M2s as sustainable alternative. I also warned that the massive expenditure on the Rafale would starve the indigenous programmes (Tejas and the advanced medium combat aircraft — AMCA) of funds, and stifle the Indian aviation industry trying to get back on its feet.

The reasons for the nose-diving deal are many, and they are serious. The unwillingness of Dassault Avions, the Rafale manufacturer, to guarantee the performance of this aircraft produced under licence at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd despite the original RFP (Request for Proposal) requiring bidders to transfer technology, including production wherewithal, procedures and protocols, to this public sector unit for the aircraft’s local assembly, has been reported. There’s, however, an untold back-story revealing France’s intended duplicity.

Perceiving India as the perennial sucker, Dassault chose Reliance Aerospace Technologies Pvt Ltd (RATPL) as partner in the hope that the fabled Ambani reach and influence in Delhi would help it get around the HAL production obligation. Problems were not anticipated as evidenced by RATPL approaching the Andhra Pradesh government in 2013 for land around Hyderabad to set up a factory. But because RATPL has zero experience in producing anything remotely related to aviation, Dassault saw it as an opportunity to “double dip”, meaning arrange it so India would pay it twice for the same aircraft! This was to be managed thus: Dassault would set up a production line under RATPL aegis importing every last screw and production jig and collect the money for the 108 Rafales it puts together here at the cost-plus-profit price HAL would charge IAF. In other words, Dassault would export the Rafale assembly kits and wherewithal virtually to itself and pocket the proceeds while paying a premium to RATPL.

But this double dipping ruse in the works merely whetted France’s appetite for more. Capitalising on the IAF brass’ penchant for newer French aircraft and the Indian government’s tendency eventually to cave into the military’s demands, Dassault proposed an enlarged Rafale deal with the cost revised upwards from the $30 billion level to a $45-$50 billion contract. For such enhanced sums, Dassault sought to replace the Rafale originally offered with the slightly better “F-3R” version, promised a mid-life upgrade involving retrofitment of the Thales RBE2 AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar, and suggested India’s future fifth and sixth generation combat aircraft needs be met by the “F-4R” and “F-5R” configurations (or whatever designations they are given) now on the drawing board featuring crystal blade for jet turbines, “fly-by-light” technology, etc. Such contract extension suits the IAF fine because it plays on Vayu Bhavan’s antipathy for Russian hardware (expressed in terms of “diversity of suppliers”) as well as indigenous aircraft, and undermines both the multi-billion dollar project jointly to develop the fifth generation fighter aircraft, Su-50 PAK/FA with Russia and the Indian AMCA with its design finalised.

But for Parrikar’s welcome show of common sense this French plan would have rolled out nicely. Inconveniently for Dassault, he publicly disclosed that the far deadlier and more versatile Su-30 MKI costs `358 crores (roughly $60 million) each compared to the `700 crore price tag for the Rafale, meaning two Su-30s could be secured for the price of a single Rafale. Implicit is the reasonable conclusion that it made more sense to buy a much larger fleet of 4.5-plus generation Su-30s than to get stuck with a 4.5-minus generation Rafale sporting 5.5 generation aircraft prices. The cost comparison remains skewed even when the “super Sukhoi-30”, costing `70 crores, is considered, when the added advantage of the plunging the Russian ruble kicks in, allowing India to extract far more bang for the buck from Moscow.

Looked at another way, the original allocation of $12 billion for the MMRCA could fetch IAF at current prices a whole new, augmented, and more capable fighter/bomber armada and raise the force strength to 50 frontline combat squadrons. This because the $12 billion can buy 20 Tejas Mk-Is (in addition to the 40 already ordered), 150 Tejas Mk-IIs, some 35 super Sukhoi-30s, and around 50 MiG-29Ks/M2s (with the M-2s nearly equal of the MiG-35 the Strategic Forces Command wanted for delivering nuclear bombs, but were denied). In short, a composite additional fleet of 255 aircraft can be acquired for the initial price of 126 Rafales, with “incalculable” savings in streamlined logistics, training, and maintenance but absent the cost-hikes, delays, and aggravation of setting up a new production line (as HAL already produces Su-30 MKIs).

Besides, France’s extortionist attitude is offputting. In response to the IAF’s request not too long ago for an immediate transfer of two Rafale squadrons from the French Air Force as a quick-fix, Paris agreed but demanded these would have to be paid for at the same rate as new aircraft and that these planes could carry only French sourced weapons. Worse still, France’s reputation for fulfilling technology transfer provisions too is suspect as past experience reveals.

The IAF trusts Paris not to cutoff the supply of spares if India follows a foreign policy not to France’s or even America’s liking. Except, heeding Washington’s directive, France recently stopped the delivery of two Mistral-class amphibious assault ships Russia has paid for. What’s the guarantee Paris won’t sever supply links and leave HAL stranded mid-production and IAF frontline squadrons grounded in case India resumes nuclear testing, say?

The larger question is: How come France’s record of defaulting on technology-related parts of contracts combined with the unaffordability of French aircraft generally using any metric, were not factored by IAF and Ministry of Defence when shortlisting Rafale?

*Bharat Karnad is professor at Centre for Policy Research*



indianrabbit said:


> I am hearing that we are not going to go with Rafale and looking to add more SU30 MKI. If so what are our options, can we get an upgraded SU 30 instead of what we have now?



There is a rumour_ (and i stress, only a rumour for now)_ that President Putin made an offer on the Sukhois during his visit. Considering how desperate the Russians are and maybe even an intention to payback the French, it can't be ruled out that there exists some kind of a sweet deal on the table.

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## PARIKRAMA

One rafale deal and all so much fire!!!
such is the point of contradictions and views that everyone's head will burst out of headaches.... hahahah

But seriously, Mr Karnad had been against this deal right from 2008-09 onwards. So everytime there is one new supporting story or quote from sources or MOD or from Rafale baiters and out comes a big blog article stating Rafale/Reliance/Cost/Indian governments being sucked by a Vampire called Dassault etc etc. I do respect his POV but i still feel and believe its a bit narrow and not 360 degree open and real views.

Its true that Dassualt while taking time in closing up this deal has played into the hands of doomsday sayers ... There is no doubt that its tieup with Reliance and issues with HAL to even stating that specifics nuts and bolts to be procured from French industry as to get Quality certification was a bit too tedious. The stretching seems to have annoyed this government a lot more i guess.. Look at the resulting development

1. DM Parrikar says we can buy more MKIs if MMRCA fails and quoted "2 MKIs approx for 1 Rafale" and cost of MKI being 384 Crs. (Mr Karnad is wrong in estimating an increase of just 10 Million $ for Zhuk AESA, and other configs under Super sukhoi program... 60 Crs per bird seems too less as per me)

2. Suddenly a announcement about AMCA program and 5000 Cr needed for the development and timeframe of 2023-25 types

I am expecting some news on LCA MK2 also in coming days with some cost or budget or timeframe to drum up program support.


WHAT ALL THIS MEANS
It means that GOI/MOD is keen to show we have back ups available in case MMRCA fails. Its a specific news to Dassault teams and i take that as a pressure tactic in negotiations. Its good DM Parrikar wants to abide by a timeframe which makes it a bit easier for everybody (hopefully he really abides and not endlessly drag). IAF may not be able to force MOD /DM/GOI too much on this and DM looks a bit stronger in terms of his mindset. Dassulat needs to pull up its pants (or panties perhaps) and finish it like a proper negotiations which is adhering to RFP and reasonable in terms of variances if any.

I expect details regarding success or failure coming out soon in a reply to Parliament/Nation/Stakeholders soon

So we have finally moved to the climax part of this potboiler story.. take some pop corn, eat and enjoy


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## PARIKRAMA

*The Rafale Saga*

By Claude Arpi
07 Jan , 2015





Very few in India know the meaning of the French word ‘Rafale’, which is now associated with the supply of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) to the Indian Air Force (IAF); ‘rafale’ means a ‘gust of wind’.

When the ‘Rafales’ prevailed in the MMRCA competition, many thought that the Big Deal would soon be signed; three years later, it is still going through tough procedural ‘gusts of wind’.

When the ‘rafales’ prevailed in the MMRCA competition, many thought that the Big Deal would soon be signed; three years later, it is still going through tough procedural ‘gusts of wind’. The reasons are not the qualities of the combat aircraft, but other complications.

Out of the 126 aircrafts to be supplied to the IAF, 18 planes are to be manufactured by the French supplier, Dassault Aviation, from its facilities in France, while the remaining 108 planes have to be built in India, under a large Transfer of Technology agreement, by Hindustan Aeronitical Ltd. (HAL).

Till recently the French side seemed very optimistic. In November, Eric Trappier, Dassault’s Chairman declared that his firm expected to conclude a deal by March: “The final phase of exclusive negotiations on the contract should conclude within India’s current budget year ending in March 2015.”

He added that this date was a ‘reasonable goal’.

On December 2, when this writer interviewed the French Defence Minister and asked about the pace of the negotiations, Mr. Le Drian said: “The negotiations are proceeding well. For a project of this scale and such complexity, which brings the transfer of numerous know-hows to several industrial stakeholders of India, the pace is comparable to that of other negotiations. Both our Governments share the will to conclude it and this is, of course, essential.”

…the main disagreement raised by the French is that Dassault is not ready to take the ‘full responsibility’ for the 108 fighters to be manufactured in India by HAL, while there is apparently no issue with the 18 fighter planes to be manufactured in France by Dassault.

In January 2012, the French firm Dassault Aviation had been selected for supplying 126 MMRCAs to the IAF. The Rafale fighter had gone through a long competitive process which lasted five years, with the American F/A-18 and F-16, Russian MiG 35, European Eurofighter and Swedish Saab Gripen in the race.
While the initial Request for Information had been issued in 2001, the Request for Proposal (RFP) was only issued in 2007, as the then minister, AK Antony wanted to add new clauses, such as the Total Life-cycle Costs, in the Indian defence procurement policy. This is where the ‘complications’ started.

It is not always easy to follow the intricacies of the Rafale saga, since Dassault is, as the French say ‘muet comme une carpe’ (‘silent as a carp fish’ which makes bubbles with no sound); and the Indian Ministry of Defence and the Indian Air Force are not very loquacious too; it is understandable in view of the high stakes.

One can however gather from the Indian press that the main disagreement raised by the French is that Dassault is not ready to take the ‘full responsibility’ for the 108 fighters to be manufactured in India by HAL, while there is apparently no issue with the 18 fighter planes to be manufactured in France by Dassault.

An Indian defence ministry official told some Indian journalists (on the condition of anonymity, as usual): “The ministry is in no hurry to conclude the negotiations despite what people may say. Dassault has to accept commitment mentioned in the RFP.”

Another ministry insider said that Dassault was not agreeing to HAL’s demand to take responsibility for the manufacturing process in India, “regardless of French government’s pressure, [Dassault finds that] it is too risky”.

The negotiations seem stuck on the imposition of penalties in case any delay occurs in the supply of the aircraft manufactured by HAL.

The same senior Indian MoD official added: “accepting terms and conditions of the original tender have emerged as the key issue to be resolved. The RFP clearly stated that under the transfer of technology agreement, the French will have to …take full responsibility of Indian manufactured fighter jets.”

The negotiations seem stuck on the imposition of penalties in case any delay occurs in the supply of the aircraft manufactured by HAL.

The question is: can Delhi ‘legally’ impose liabilities on something over which Dassault has no control? This sounds like one of these clauses drafted during the Antony Raj, where the ‘foreign’ supplier has to pay’.
This is also true for the Civil Liability for Nuclear Damage Act, which will be discussed during Obama’s visit later this month. The Economic Times recently editorialized: “India should bring its liability law in line with international norms. It makes little sense to keep nuclear suppliers’ liability open-ended and unlimited. This is what has held back vendors from the US, Japan and elsewhere from concretising their India plans.”

This does not solve the Rafale issue.

Parrikar announced India’s Plan B: “The Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force’s needs”. It is only a bluff or is the IAF serious?

Ajia Shukla writes in The Business Standard: “For the first time since January 31, 2012, …a top Indian official has admitted serious problems in negotiating the purchase with French vendor, Dassault.”

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar indeed spoke of ‘complications’ in the negotiations “with the French side reluctant to meet commitments that the IAF had specified in the tender”. Parrikar announced India’s Plan B: “The Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force’s needs”.

It is only a bluff or is the IAF serious?

Earlier this month, the Indian minister had assured his French counterpart that the Rafale negotiations would be placed on a ‘fast track’. More recently, he asserted that Le Drian “had committed to send an empowered person to negotiate after New Year.”

Now it appears that a French ‘empowered’ delegation is likely to visit India to take forward the negotiations. One could however ask: empowered’ by whom?

Dassault Aviations is a private limited company, the last aviation group in the world still owned by its founding family, who owns 51% of the group’s shares (while EADS France – Airbus Group has 46%).

IAF which has today a sanctioned strength of 45 fighter jet squadrons, has only 25 operational squadrons. The ‘Rafale Deal’ would be indeed a win-win for both India and France …if signed. Let us hope for the best.

Could someone outside Dassault Aviation be ‘empowered’?

Would Delhi like to deal with an official of the French Ministry of Defence?

In which capacity would that person negotiate? Can the French State guarantee the liabilities of a private limited firm? All this seems rather complicated.

Since 1999, Dassault’s main activity has been the export of business jets (Falcons). In 2012, 71% of the revenues came from the sales of the Falcons, while the Defence sector (export) is less than 5%. Is Dassault ready to take the risk to spoil its ‘civilian’ branch by guaranteeing the Rafale deal? Of course, it is up to the familial firm to decide.

When Mr. Parrikar recently declared, ‘we are in a mess that I can’t spell out’, was he thinking of this Deal?

There is no doubt that Dassault’s defence branch badly needs the Rafale order to survive, while the Indian Air Force desperately has to replace its ageing MiG-21s with a modern fighter. Further the IAF which has today a sanctioned strength of 45 fighter jet squadrons, has only 25 operational squadrons.

The ‘Rafale Deal’ would be indeed a win-win for both India and France …if signed. Let us hope for the best.

Claude Arpi: The Rafale Saga


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## sancho

indianrabbit said:


> I am hearing that we are not going to go with Rafale and looking to add more SU30 MKI. If so what are our options, can we get an upgraded SU 30 instead of what we have now? @sancho.
> 
> Hey Sancho are you on twitter?



That would be more than sad, but if so it will be a split between additional MKIs and LCAs. Both orders most likely will be added to HAL's existing production lines, with increased production rates. From 2017 onwards we will produce upgraded MKIs, but the full extend of the upgrade doesn't seems to be fixed yet. 
No am not on twitter yet.



Bang Galore said:


> *Bharat Karnad is professor at Centre for Policy Research*



Don't know what's worse, that people like him get a professor title, or that our media give anyone the space to publish BS.


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## Hindustani78

Harisudan said:


> Those who know Russian Engineering design knows very well that, they follow a completely different standard in terms of Engineering..Probably GOST standard..
> Where as French follow, ISO standars, which even Indians follow..That way it will be easy..



Yes, Indian Air Force is having Mirage 2000 fighter planes and even up gradation is being done in HAL Bangalore

2013
Upgraded Mirage 2000 undertakes maiden flight in France | Zee News



Gandhi follower said:


> Rafale has taken India for a ride. They intentionally delayed the deal. Now cost has been more than double. India should shut the door. This is our hard earned money, Govt should not waste it for Rafale. Go for MKI and Mig29.



After 26th January , i think we will hear things more clearly about it. Its about NATO technology


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## skysthelimit

*Dassault Insists on Latest Rafale Version for India, Doubles the Price*

Dassault has offered the latest version of the Rafale fighter, the F3R for nearly double the price of the F3 version it originally bid with in the Indian fighter aircraft competition.

The company is reportedly insisting that India take the latest version as the French company is upgrading aircraft in the French Air Force to the F3R version and all future aircraft manufactured will be of the latest version.

After it was declared the lowest bidder in the Medium Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MMRCA) competition, the French manufacturer upped the price from about US$ 65 million a unit to US$120 million a unit in mid-2014. The price hike is one of the main bones of contention which is delaying the deal.

The reason for the hike is that the F3R version launched in 2014 incorporates major software changes that will complement the Thales RBE2 active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar and allow the aircraft to deploy the MBDA Meteor Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile, along with improvements to the aircraft's Thales SPECTRA self-defence system and Mode-5/Mode-S-compatible Identification Friend or Foe interrogator/transponder.

Offering a different configuration aircraft at a higher price is in violation of the original Request for Proposal (RFP). Perhaps it is for this reason that an Indian news agency quoted an unnamed Indian official on January 4 as saying that Rafale has been told, “stick to the RFP”. India is insisting that Dassault cannot renege on the RFP clauses, the report said.

An Indian defence analyst Bharat Karnad writing in the Indian Express newspaper commented on reasons for the price hike that Dassault sought to replace the Rafale originally offered with the “slightly better” F3R version, promised a mid-life upgrade to incorporate the AESA radar and suggested India’s future fifth and sixth generation combat aircraft needs be met by the “F4R” and “F5R” configurations now on the drawing board.

However, Dassault may be justified to an extent, in asking for a higher price as the Indian Defence Procurement Procedure demands price freeze for a two year period after bidding. Beyond that it does not specify if the hike has to be of a certain percentage. Since Dassault was declared the lowest bidder in 2012, the Indian Rupee has devalued about 10% against the Euro and the cost in Euro terms has gone up for Dassault. All this will impact the final price.

A source familiar with international defence deals told defenseworld.net that developing newer versions of aircraft is a normal activity. With every enhancement, comes a new price tag. The Americans, Europeans and even the Russians do it. Even if India had selected the Eurofighter, it would have been faced with a similar situation. “The real problem is that India should have quickly wrapped up the deal after selecting the lowest bidder", he said. 

Dassault Insists on Latest Rafale Version for India, Doubles the Price

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## sancho

skysthelimit said:


> An Indian defence analyst Bharat Karnad writing in the Indian Express newspaper commented on reasons for the price hike that Dassault sought to replace the Rafale originally offered with the “slightly better” F3R version, promised a mid-life upgrade to incorporate the AESA radar and suggested India’s future fifth and sixth generation combat aircraft needs be met by the “F4R” and “F5R” configurations now on the drawing board.



That's the problem when Indian media gives nutjobs like him or Ajay Shukla the chance to publish comments they made on their blogs otherwise, without any clue of what they are talking. We suddenly will find other media reports that are based on the same silly comments, without any research on the credibility or truth. No wonder that our media has such a low reputation.


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## PARIKRAMA

Can some one like @sancho @DrSomnath999 @Abingdonboy or anyone clarify onething

If Suppose India wishes to upgrade Su30MKI to comparable standard of Rafale F3R what will be the price approximately?

A rough background is DM quoted MKI at 358 Cr so lets say $60 Mn and article says F3 at $65 Mn. Now to me that price is very very COMPARABLE & ALMOST SAME

So additionally whatsoever we are getting at F3R then equivalent addition in MKI would push the cost up by how much? When would be the delivery timelines? I guess F3R will be from Day 1 right? so what abt MKI upgradation program and timeframe for whole fleet upgradation? Pls clarify on COST and TIMEFRAME.
I wish to then compare and understand - apple to apple .. egg to egg..

PS: My guts says if MKI is raised to Super Sukhoi status, the price should be closer to F3R may be at best less by 10%-15% (absence of spectra is the reason for cost being less by that % as no equivalent exists in Russian AF). But i wanna understand and take into consideration more definitive & rational opinions of ppl who have more knowledge of such tech and price frame.

Another point btw any new tech cost high till economies of scale or redundancy or a superior tech being researched and envisioned for deployment timeframe is known. AESA being new tech (at least in deployment in both Russia and France), i sincerely believe cost should be high. I may be wrong but i wish to understand.


NOW FOR NUMBER CRUNCHERS

assuming F3 Cost of $65 Mn so
126 rafales F3- $8190 Mn
189 rafales F3- $12285 Mn

assuming lifetime cost addition at say 33% hence
126 rafales F3 LTC - $10892 Mn
189 rafale F3 LTC- $17137 Mn

IMP: article says F3 price as on 2014

Again say F3R is $120 Mn
so 126 rafales F3R- $15120 Mn
189 rafales F3R - $22680 Mn

Assuming LTC cost addition at 33% then

126 rafales F3R LTC- $20101 Mn
189 rafales F3R LTC- $30168 Mn

Now i have made rough estimates above and see F3 original RFP complied as well within our MMRCA budget reach with consideration of currency fluctuation and inflationary cost over time

The F3R LTC for 126 does not look bad but swells up to $ 30 Bn when we consider 189 jets.

So clearly India has been always looking at 189 birds POV from now only. But then mid life upgrade from F3 to F3R would anyway add cost. how much is what i am trying to understand and asked above part (beginning of post) versus say Su30MKI to super sukhoi config...........

again assumed figures.. for understanding only


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## Sri

Some interesting points by Prasun, Dont know how much from this can be considered true.
TRISHUL: Compounded Irrationalities Due To Systematic Stupidity

*Compounded Irrationalities Due To Systematic Stupidity*

As the saying goes, “Those who know much, talk little”. But its meaning seems to have been lost on India’s new Raksha Mantri (Defence Minister) Manohar Parrikar, if we are to believe what he was reported to have said at an on-the-record press conference on December 30, 2014 regarding the procurement of 189 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (M-MRCA). Most of the ‘desi’ newspapers attributed two statements to Parrikar: *(1)* additional licence-built Su-30MKIs are adequate for the IAF in case it is decided not to procure the Rafale; and *(2)* The Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force’s needs. Now, while it is understandable for a select group of ‘desi’ journalists to deliberately twist-and-turn the Raksha Mantri’s statements/observations (since for the past 18 months they have either been promoting, for their own vested financial interests, the procurement of either the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter or the Eurofighter EF-2000), in case these ‘desi’ journalists for once did get it right and correctly quoted the Raksha Mantri, then India is indeed in some serious trouble.



Let me explain how and why. Neither the Su-30MKI nor the MiG-29UPG/MiG-29K were ever designed as multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA). Their design and performance parameters were instead optimised for air dominance/air superiority, with standoff all-weather precision strike undertaken from medium altitudes being a secondary capability. It is for this reason that the erstwhile USSR had developed the Su-24 and Su-27IB/Su-34 as all-weather, terrain-hugging deep penetration strike aircraft (DPSA), and the Su-25 as a dedicated tactical strike/close air support aircraft. Consequently, neither the Su-30MKI’s nor the MiG-29UPG’s/MiG-29K’s airframes have the stress tolerances that are required for flying terrain-hugging flight profiles. Their existing X-band multi-mode radars or MMR (RLSU-30MK NO-11M ‘Bars’ and the Zhuk-M2E) therefore don’t come with low-altitude terrain avoidance mode or automatic terrain-following capability or weather-mapping mode, and neither are they equipped with low-altitude navigation pods.



Consequently, the only true M-MRCAs that are operational today in an area between India and Japan is the Republic of Singapore Air Force’s Boeing-built F-15SGs, which come equipped with Raytheon-supplied APG-63(V)3 AESA-MMR, Boeing/ELBIT Systems joint helmet mounted cueing system (JHMCS), TIGER Eyes Sensor Suite comprising Lockheed Martin’s AAQ-13 LANTIRN-ER navigation pod (containing a mid-wave staring-array FLIR sensor and aterrain-following radar and forward-looking infra-red sensor), an AAQ-33 Sniper XR targetting pod containing a mid-wave staring-array FLIR sensor with a 40,000-feet laser and charge-couple device (CCD) TV, and the AAS-43 infra-red search-and-track (IRST) system containing a passive long-wave IR sensor. 



Simply put, therefore, the IAF is in dire need of procuring an M-MRCA fleet with automatic terrain-following capability—which the Rafale is optimised for. Presently, the IAF operates 3 MiG-29B-12 squadrons (now being upgraded to MiG-29UPG standard), 9 MiG-21 Bison squadrons, 4 Jaguar IS squadrons, 1 Jaguar IM squadron, 10 Su-30MKI squadrons, 3 Mirage 2000H/TH squadrons (being upgraded to Mirage 2000UPG standard), 3 MiG-27UPG squadrons, and 2 MiG-27M squadrons, making a total of 35 squadrons. Although the sanctioned strength of the IAF is 42 combat aircraft squadrons (which is due for increase to 50 squadrons by 2024, at least on paper), of these, those equipped with MiG-21 Bisons, MiG-27UPGs and MiG-27Ms will have to be decommissioned by 2017 at the latest.



Presently, the IAF is gearing up to form the first ‘Tejas’ Mk1 squadron—No45 ‘Flying Daggers’ Sqn—which will initially be first raised in Bengaluru before relocating to Sulur in Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu, this March. Present plans call for the first four IOC-standard) Tejas Mk1 MRCAs built by the MoD-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to be delivered by March 31, 2015, another six by March 31, 2016, and another eight by March 31, 2017. This squadron will, however, be declared fully operational only in 2022, once its 18 Tejas Mk1s are upgraded to FOC standard. The second Tejas Mk1-equipped squadron, comprising 20 FOC-standard MRCAs, will be formed up in 2017 and will become fully operational by March 31, 2020. All Tejas Mkls will be equipped with Israel Aerospace Industries/ELTA Systems-supplied EL/M-2032 MMRs, which will possess both automatic terrain-followingand weather mapping modes of operation. 



Going by calculations based on universal norms, I have estimated the flyaway unit cost of procuring 40 Tejas Mk1s as being US$52 million. To this must be added the cost of air base customisation and procurement of weapons packages, all of which works to out about US$72 million per aircraft. 



Meanwhile, to replace the MiG-27UPGs and MiG-27Ms, 68 Jaguar IS aircraft are presently being upgraded to DARIN 3-standard so that they can undertake all-weather tactical strike/close air support operations. This Rs.31.3 billion (US$0.57 billion) contract was awarded to HAL in March 2008 and is due for completion by December 2017. The upgraded Jaguar IS too will have on board the EL/M-2032 MMRs possessing both automatic terrain-following and weather mapping modes of operation. 



From the above, it becomes clear that the IAF is now in desperate need of M-MRCAs with credible deep penetration strike capabilities and capable of flying terrain-hugging profiles. It is also well-known that the IAF wants to arrest the steady decline of its frontline combat aircraft inventory ASAP. The only available options—all non-negotiable—are as follows:



*1)* Ink the procurement contract for 189 Rafales latest by June 2015.



*2)* Increase the size of the Su-30MKI fleet to no less than 350 by procuring the first 50 Super Su-30MKIs in semi-knocked-down condition from Russia’s IRKUT Corp, starting 2017, while concurrently commencing the upgrading of in-service Su-30MKIs in successive tranches to Super Sukhoi-standard.



*3)* Increase the quantum of Jaguar IS being upgraded to DARIN 3-stadard from 68 to 125 and re-engine the entire fleet with Honeywell-supplied F-125 turbofans. 

Now a brief explanation on why the Rafale M-MRCA procurement’s contract signature has been subjected to delays. Firstly, there was the financial crunch over the past two years. Secondly, the Union Ministry for Home Affairs had in 2012 issued mandatory industrial security-related regulations that called for comprehensive vetting (a most time-consuming process) of all technical and managerial personnel of those India-based Tier-1, Tier-2 and Tier-3 companies that were selected for the licence-manufacturing/licenced-assembly components of the Rafale M-MRCA. Thirdly, since French aerospace OEMs have always made use of France-origin precision machining, riveting and welding equipment and related test-benches, this time too they insisted that HAL and its sub-contractors procure all such hardware exclusively from French OEMs, instead of issuing global tenders for such industrial hardware procurements. Had HAL not agreed to comply with this key issue, all the involved French OEMs would have been unable to issue certificates of airworthiness for all those Rafales licence-built by HAL. It is this issue that has been most time-consuming and in the end, HAL had no other choice but to give-in.

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## DrSomnath999

@PARIKRAMA 

cost of rafale per plane is around 90-95 million dollars

cost of su 30mki /plane is around 55-60million dollars 

cost of single Super Su30mki would be higher atleast greater than 70 million dollars but not less than that 

all i want to say to you & everyone that it is just a pressure tactic from MoD to bring rafale to their terms & conditions So dont take it seriously until & unless MoD itself declares the deal is scrapped

CLASSIFIED THING is 
This thing was also discussed during recent Putin's visit also & was also his offer

how many journos know that

*CHEERS*

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## surya kiran

sancho said:


> That's the problem when Indian media gives nutjobs like him or Ajay Shukla the chance to publish comments they made on their blogs otherwise, without any clue of what they are talking. We suddenly will find other media reports that are based on the same silly comments, without any research on the credibility or truth. No wonder that our media has such a low reputation.



If you want to know whether the Rafale deal will go through or fall through, just watch the share price of Dassault. That will be the first indicator.



Sri said:


> Let me explain how and why. Neither the Su-30MKI nor the MiG-29UPG/MiG-29K were ever designed as multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA). Their design and performance parameters were instead optimised for air dominance/air superiority, with standoff all-weather precision strike undertaken from medium altitudes being a secondary capability. It is for this reason that the erstwhile USSR had developed the Su-24 and Su-27IB/Su-34 as all-weather, terrain-hugging deep penetration strike aircraft (DPSA), and the Su-25 as a dedicated tactical strike/close air support aircraft. Consequently, neither the Su-30MKI’s nor the MiG-29UPG’s/MiG-29K’s airframes have the stress tolerances that are required for flying terrain-hugging flight profiles.



How exactly does the Mig 29K fly then from aircraft carriers? They fly just over the sea waves and they bob quite a bit from the info that is available? @gambit @sancho @Capt.Popeye


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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> If Suppose India wishes to upgrade Su30MKI to comparable standard



Comparable standard means techs, but not that you have a the same performance or capabilties. All 6 contenders in the M-MRCA competition was of comparable standards and still offered very different capabilities and performance and some fittied IAF, some didn't. Even if the MKI would be upgraded to the same "technical" standard, it wouldn't meet IAFs requirements simply by the fact that it's a heavy class fighter in the first place. It wouldn't meet MoD's requirements, since more MKIs doesn't get us 50% ToT and offsets back into our industry and so on, which makes clear, that the MKI is not an alternative to M-MRCA, but a fall back option to keep the numbers of fighters in the worst case scenario.



PARIKRAMA said:


> article says



Forget about the article, it's full of BS because it's based on the nonsense Bharat Karnad is spreading around. He got is once again all wrong and is only trying to sell his own point of view. He is giving wrong figures, wrong facts on Rafale standards and the rest of the media is simply jumping on the his statements and hyping it.
Wrt Rafale standards:







The base for the M-MRCA was the F3+, that we evaluated in the trials as well and only the marked upgrades of the F3R would have any importance to India, which shows that there is no way that the price for us could double, even if the French would insist on the F3R standard (which however is an interesting claim though @halloweene ).



PARIKRAMA said:


> AESA being new tech (at least in deployment in both Russia and France), i sincerely believe cost should be high.



Of course, but that depends on where the base was! The development of Zhuk AESA for example, from the normal Zhuk Me puls doppler radar was more complicated and took more time, than the further development of the RBE 2 PESA to AESA. But the AESA is already available in the Rafale and part of the M-MRCA bid, while the F3R as shown will add just a minor upgrade to it, which can't cost that much in addition.

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## Turingsage

Indias procurement policy is a sad painful joke. India is asking that Dassault should pay if the quality of the jets produced by HAL is not upto the level of jets made in France. HAL "engineers" have the same technical skills as my local car mechanic. In fact my local car mechanic is a lot better as he doesnt endlessly talk about "futuristic" repairs he is going to make next week and then deliver utter shite 20 years later. 
I had the unfortunate experience of visiting HAL in the late 80's as part of Thales team as a part of a contract. Every attempt to raise the quality of production or making improvements in managing projects were thwarted because these engineers and managers were still working in the 19th century snd couldnt grasp the simplest of technical concepts. Even decisions like cutting down on endless non working talking breaks and then off home yo talk some more of futuristic nonsense would take years.

DRDO HAL are all political organisations that supply a powerbase for politicians. They are defence industries only in name


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## CONNAN

India plans to take a final call on Rafale Fighter Jet

NEW DELHI: India plans to take a final call, one way or the other, on the gigantic $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters before Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits France and Germany in April.

Sources said the defence ministry is now hopping mad with French aviation major Dassault's continuing refusal to take "ownership" of the 108 Rafale fighters which are to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in India with transfer of technology after the first 18 jets are delivered off-the-shelf to IAF.

The MoD is also upset with Dassault's attempts to "change the price line", which led to its selection over the Eurofighter Typhoon as the L-1 (lowest bidder) three years ago, by deciding the "costing" for HAL on its own. "It will amount to a de facto hike in the L-1 price," said a source.

READ ALSO: France pushes for Rafale deal, but talks still stuck

If Dassault continues to renege from its earlier commitments, refusing to be "fully compliant" with the original RFP (request for proposal), India will be left with no option but to scrap the entire MMRCA project despite having invested almost a decade in the selection process. Incidentally, the defence procurement policy and Central Vigilance Commission guidelines do not allow the L-2 (Typhoon) to re-enter the negotiations.
As was first reported by TOI, even though 90% of the draft contract is ready, the finalization of the complex MMRCA project has been stuck for almost a year now due to Dassault's reluctance to stand guarantee for the fighters to be made in India in terms of liquidity damages and production timelines.

Sources said defence minister Manohar Parrikar has written to his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian that India was still awaiting the "empowered" delegation he had promised to send to resolve the imbroglio. The two ministers had decided to "fast-track" the negotiations during talks in New Delhi on December 1.

READ ALSO: Amid sniping by rivals, France aims to close Rafale deal by early 2015

"The ball is firmly in the French court. India cannot allow any violation of the RFP in such a mega project, nor can it afford to let the negotiations drag on endlessly. A final call has to be taken, one way or the other," said the source.

If the MMRCA project is indeed scrapped, it will bring to an end the mega fighter selection process launched by India way back in August 2007. This "mother of all defence deals" had global aviation majors salivating at the prospect of bagging the lucrative deal.

After extensive field trials by IAF test pilots, Swedish Gripen, Russian MiG-35, American F/A-18 'Super Hornet' and F-16 'Super Viper' were ejected out of the high-voltage competition.

Subsequently, the commercial bids of the two remaining contenders -- Eurofighter Typhoon (EADS), backed by UK, Germany, Spain and Italy, and French Rafale (Dassault) - were opened in November 2011.

Rafale was then declared the winner in January 2012, having beaten the Typhoon both on direct cost of acquisition as well as "life-cycle costs'' of operating the fighters over a 40-year period with 6,000 hours of flying. But the final commercial negotiations with Dassault have progressed at a glacial pace since then.

Rafale deal hits rough weather - The Times of India

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## halloweene

Sancho i wouldn't dismiss as quickly Talios pod. It has capabilities sniper or Litening do no thave like dtection of gound moving target or A2A tracking and identification.

About the "empowered" person, it is in fact adelegation going to india for what should be last round of negociations. Even I know more or less when they'll go to India so i heavily doubt Parrikar had to write Le Drian about that.

It is always a problem with anonymous sources (and i understand that a journalist should protec its sources), readers do not know how they really are to the file...
In that case, i doubt it is so close.
Your table is fairly accurate, but add a huge improvement of Spectra in the F3R game.


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## $@rJen

*Rafale deal likely to Collapse ?*
Published January 12, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE : TNN








India plans to take a final call, one way or the other, on the gigantic $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters before Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits France and Germany in April.

Sources said the defence ministry is now hopping mad with French aviation major Dassault’s continuing refusal to take “ownership” of the 108 Rafale fighters which are to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in India with transfer of technology after the first 18 jets are delivered off-the-shelf to IAF.

The MoD is also upset with Dassault’s attempts to “change the price line”, which led to its selection over the Eurofighter Typhoon as the L-1 (lowest bidder) three years ago, by deciding the “costing” for HAL on its own. “It will amount to a de facto hike in the L-1 price,” said a source.

If Dassault continues to renege from its earlier commitments, refusing to be “fully compliant” with the original RFP (request for proposal), India will be left with no option but to scrap the entire MMRCA project despite having invested almost a decade in the selection process. Incidentally, the defence procurement policy and Central Vigilance Commission guidelines do not allow the L-2 (Typhoon) to re-enter the negotiations.
As was first reported by TOI, even though 90% of the draft contract is ready, the finalization of the complex MMRCA project has been stuck for almost a year now due to Dassault’s reluctance to stand guarantee for the fighters to be made in India in terms of liquidity damages and production timelines.

Sources said defence minister Manohar Parrikar has written to his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian that India was still awaiting the “empowered” delegation he had promised to send to resolve the imbroglio. The two ministers had decided to “fast-track” the negotiations during talks in New Delhi on December 1.

“The ball is firmly in the French court. India cannot allow any violation of the RFP in such a mega project, nor can it afford to let the negotiations drag on endlessly. A final call has to be taken, one way or the other,” said the source.

If the MMRCA project is indeed scrapped, it will bring to an end the mega fighter selection process launched by India way back in August 2007. This “mother of all defence deals” had global aviation majors salivating at the prospect of bagging the lucrative deal.

After extensive field trials by IAF test pilots, Swedish Gripen, Russian MiG-35, American F/A-18 ‘Super Hornet’ and F-16 ‘Super Viper’ were ejected out of the high-voltage competition.

Subsequently, the commercial bids of the two remaining contenders — Eurofighter Typhoon (EADS), backed by UK, Germany, Spain and Italy, and French Rafale (Dassault) – were opened in November 2011.

Rafale was then declared the winner in January 2012, having beaten the Typhoon both on direct cost of acquisition as well as “life-cycle costs” of operating the fighters over a 40-year period with 6,000 hours of flying. But the final commercial negotiations with Dassault have progressed at a glacial pace since then.


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## Gandhi follower

Parrikar writing a letter to his French counterpart asking where is their Negotiation team and when will it come to India suggests French are not serious and Deal is Gone case .


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## Indian_Patriot

Really hope the deal falls through. From a strategic POV, the Rafale is totally unnecessary.


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## PARIKRAMA

Gandhi follower said:


> Parrikar writing a letter to his French counterpart asking where is their Negotiation team and when will it come to India suggests French are not serious and Deal is Gone case .



Times of India reported today that India defence minister Manohar Parrikar has written to his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian that India was still awaiting the "empowered" delegation he had promised to send to resolve the imbroglio. The two ministers had decided to "fast-track" the negotiations during talks in New Delhi on December 1.

TNN reported a part of the news though

The whole news was 
India wants closure on the MMRCA deal to buy 126 Dassault Rafale fighters before Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits France and Germany in April.

followed by DM writing mail as this was part of fast track process


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## Gandhi follower

PARIKRAMA said:


> Times of India reported today that India defence minister Manohar Parrikar has written to his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian that India was still awaiting the "empowered" delegation he had promised to send to resolve the imbroglio. The two ministers had decided to "fast-track" the negotiations during talks in New Delhi on December 1.
> 
> TNN reported a part of the news though
> 
> The whole news was
> India wants closure on the MMRCA deal to buy 126 Dassault Rafale fighters before Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits France and Germany in April.
> 
> followed by DM writing mail as this was part of fast track process



That is the point sir, when french minister met parikar he assured to send a empowered delegation to negotiate the deal. now Parikar is sending reminders.

IAF should take blame for not having a plan B. who made this stupid clause that we can't negotiate with L2 !


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## zeeshanvita

It does not seem India will sign a deal in this quarter...may be not even till june...may delay by the last two quarters..I guess both parties dont want to give further ground to one an other..


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## PARIKRAMA

Well honestly i dont blame MOD or IAF.. The reason being the plan B was always our indigenous capability development which we till date had not been satisfactorily able to develop or deliver. If suppose we would have got LCA development done by 2004-05 (FOC type) then by now we may have seen MK2 type medium class prototypes . It is a different matter that our programs had lots of hiccups post Pokhran2 episode. But then again Plan B should never be importing another machine but sadly our capabilities still are not mature that we can think in those lines.

The beauty of Rafale deal is more about offset part which i hope and firmly believe may help us develop defense ecosystem . I dont know about the fineprint of TOT but i hope its something which as i mentioned should help our industry move towards more sophisticated and cutting edge tech manufacturing and makes more as developer/producer types. If we are able to do that then in 15-20 years Plan B of indigenous production would be so strong that our country would be in advantageous position more often.

If we quote Plan B for MMRCA as EFT or fallback as MKIs then we are only fooling ourselves as truth is even EFT with new standards whats under development if thats what they offer would be costly just like F3R over F3/F3+. I mean as compared to what they may have submitted as bid and got as L2. Its now too late to actually discuss with L2. Hence i hope a good news comes out soon (either way signing or cancelling).

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## $@rJen

Gandhi follower said:


> Parrikar writing a letter to his French counterpart asking where is their Negotiation team and when will it come to India suggests French are not serious and Deal is Gone case .



any source for that news?



Indian_Patriot said:


> Really hope the deal falls through. From a strategic POV, the Rafale is totally unnecessary.



Care to explain
??



PARIKRAMA said:


> Times of India reported today that India defence minister Manohar Parrikar has written to his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian that India was still awaiting the "empowered" delegation he had promised to send to resolve the imbroglio. The two ministers had decided to "fast-track" the negotiations during talks in New Delhi on December 1.
> 
> TNN reported a part of the news though
> 
> The whole news was
> India wants closure on the MMRCA deal to buy 126 Dassault Rafale fighters before Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits France and Germany in April.
> 
> followed by DM writing mail as this was part of fast track process



Damn.... Parrikar is Making french to sweat more... They're in for a real shock from New Government... fall into original conditions.


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Sancho i wouldn't dismiss as quickly Talios pod. It has capabilities sniper or Litening do no thave like dtection of gound moving target or A2A tracking and identification.



It has nothing (at least publically known) that would make it superior to the Litening, most likely costs more and offers no commonality within the IAF fleet. IAF in fact would need to buy dedicted pods only for the Rafale, while they only have to integrate the Litening and use those that they now bought for Mirage, the Mig 29 and Jags.
The only game changer as said earlier, would had been a joined development as part of the ToT offer or an integrated solution, that would make it useful for A2A too, but nobody really needs A2A capabilities in an external pod, that will be carried only in A2G missions right?



halloweene said:


> Your table is fairly accurate, but add a huge improvement of Spectra in the F3R game.


I added the once I knew, but feel free to add / correct the parts I missed.


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## SR-91

sarjenprabhu said:


> any source for that news?.




Parrikar outlines alternatives to Rafale | Business Standard News

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has fired another warning shot across the bows of French fighter manufacturer, Dassault, which has been negotiating for three years with the ministry of defence (MoD) to sell the Indian Air Force (IAF) 126 Rafale fighters.

A fortnight after declaring that the IAF could make do with additional Sukhoi-30MKI fighters - which HAL builds in Nashik - in case "complications" in the negotiations were not resolved, Parrikar has gone further in outlining how the IAF could function were it decided not to procure the Rafale.

Speaking to a television channel, Headlines Today, on Monday, Parrikar said the Su-30MKI offered a viable alternative, especially given that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) was upgrading and overhauling the fighter and equipping it with state-of-the-art electronic warfare systems.

Said Parrikar: "Sukhoi-30 choice is always there. What I mean to say is: upgrade the Sukhoi-30, make it more capable." Dismissing concerns about the IAF's falling fighter numbers, Parrikar said the IAF could put more fighters into the sky by improving the serviceability rate of its current fleet of 35 squadrons.

Business Standard has earlier reported (October 23, 2014 "Govt takes note of Su-30MKI's poor 'serviceability'") that barely half of the IAF's premier Russian fighters are available for combat missions at any given time. Since then, due to HAL's efforts, that has risen to 58 per cent, still below the global norm of 80-85 per cent. Parrikar made it clear that the IAF needed to look at the issue of fighter costs. He said, "It is not always… go and purchase it. A cost effective purchase is also important."

Declining to reveal the actual cost of buying the Rafale, Parrikar said, "Whether it is Rs 40,000 crore, or Rs 50,000 crore or Rs 1 lakh-crore, we are speaking about 50 per cent of the capital budget of the defence services."

Parrikar also voiced his concern at Dassault's reported reluctance to meet the terms of the IAF tender, which required the French company to guarantee the 108 fighters that HAL would build in India, after the first 18 were supplied fully-built in France. *The defence minister said, "I have told (Dassault) to send a person to work out the (differences). You have to be clear that, irrespective of anything, the (tender's) terms have to be met. They cannot be diluted."*

Parrikar laid down a deadline of March 2015 for his ministry to revamp five important policies - permitting foreign companies to have agents in India; the issue of blacklisting companies for wrongdoing; defining "Make in India" policy; bringing micro, small and medium enterprises (MSMEs) into defence production; and a clear offsets policy.

*Interestingly, Parrikar said he was considering creating a list of defence products that would no longer be imported. He said, "Maybe some items can be brought under that, where we have already developed a certain import substitution (ability). Some items may be brought under that by 2015."*

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## CONNAN

*Indian Defence Secretary in France for Rafale Talks*

NEW DELHI — Indian Defence Secretary Radha Krishna Mathur is in Paris Monday and Tuesday to help speed negotiations on the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program, an Indian Defence Ministry source said. A senior official of state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) is accompanying Mathur, the official said.

In December, Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and visiting French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian agreed to fast-track the MMRCA negotiations for the purchase of 126 Dassault Aviation Rafale fighters for US $12 billion. That figure, originally estimated in 2007, is now put at about $20 billion, the MoD source added.

The contract negotiations are on track, the official said, but refused to specify when a deal could be finalized.

"Negotiations can be stretched in big ticket deals like the MMRCA deal," the official added.

Talks with Dassault began in 2012 after Rafale was down-selected as the preferred aircraft over the Eurofighter Typhoon. Issues relating to the cost of the 108 Rafales to be license-produced by HAL and French guarantees on the delivery schedule have delayed final agreement.

Under terms of purchase, the first 18 aircraft will come in fly-away condition while the remaining 108 will be manufactured under a technology transfer process. Out of the 108 aircraft to be license-produced in India, 74 would be single-seat and 34 twin-seat aircraft.

Even as HAL is finalizing the cost of the Indian-made Rafales, HAL is insisting that Dassault guarantee the delivery schedule because hundreds of spares and subsystems will be supplied by the French.

French officials have said they can assist HAL in the delivery schedule and help lower the cost of the Indian-made Rafales, but cannot give guarantees.

An Indian Air Force official said the MMRCA negotiations would have been finalized long ago if the Indian producer had been a private sector company rather than a state-owned entity.

Indian Defence Secretary in France for Rafale Talks

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## Indian_Patriot

Quote
"Care to explain
??"


This is going to be a somewhat detailed post so i hope you have the patience to read through.

Its pretty simple really...from a strategic POV its important that we have an airforce that is capable of handling our adversaries. Our principal adversaries are Pakistan and China, we don't need an airforce that is capable of countering the US. First our most immediate threat - Pakistan.

The Pakistani air force's principal threat to the IAF comes from 76 F-16s and 50 JF-17s. The rest of the number's are made up of totally outdated fighters such as the F-7 and Mirage 3. So the principal threat arises from a total of 126 aircraft or 6 squadrons. IAFs current fighting strength of 4th generation aircraft is 216 Su-30 Mki, 68 Mig-29 Upg and 49 M2k. I would add to this that although the Mig-21 Bison cannot be considered a 4th generation aircraft, its upgrade has made it a very capable platform.

Here is an excerpt from Red Flag back in 2008.

Profiling the MiG-21 Bison:
"The MiG-21 bison is a pretty neat airplane."
"It is based on the MiG-21 as many of you guys know from the Vietnam (War) era, but upgraded with an F-16 radar built by the Israelis in the nose, active radar missile, and they carry an Israeli jammer on it would practically make them invisible to our legacy radar in the F-15 and F-16."
"MiG-21 had the capability to get into the scissors with you, 110 knots, 60 degrees nose high, go from 10,000 feet to 20,000 feet, very maneuverable airplane, but it didn't have any good weapons. Now it has high off bore sight Archer missile, helmet mounted sight, active missile, and a jammer that gets it into the merge, good radar..."



So i would add 124 Bisons to the list, it is easily capable of countering the JF-17 and even the F-16 in the point defence role. That gives us 457 aircraft or roughly 22 squadrons. So that is 6 PAF squadrons vs 22 IAF squadrons in the air-to air role. We clearly have a superiority here. When it come to A2G, we have sufficient capability with regards to Pakistan especially when we add our upgraded Mig-27s and Jags into the mix. It also needs to be noted that the A2G mission is evolving and as more missiles in the Brahmos/Nirbhay class are inducted into the forces many of the missions that previously would have required a fighter can be carried out by our missile forces. This is especially true considering the proximity of Pakistan air bases to the Indian border, the majority of which are within 250 Km of the Indian border. So i think we can safely say that if a limited conventional conflict broke out with Pakistan tomorrow we could handle it with regards to the Air Combat perspective. But of course we don't just have Pakistan to deal with.

I will discuss China in the next post and why additional 'Super-Sukois' would be sufficient for us vis-a-viz China until we start inducting the PAK-FA.[/QUOTE]


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## Indian_Patriot

Now when it comes to China its a matter of numbers that we need to worry about. They have roughly 900 aircraft in the roughly 4th generation category. I include the J-11, J10 and the Su-30 MKK in this category. The rest of it is pretty much obsolete junk. You can see the Chinese philosophy of 'quantity has its own quality' at work here. 
It needs to be noted that even their most advanced aircraft the MKK is half generation behind our Su-30 Mki when it comes to air to air combat. The Chinese have recently begun development of their Fifth generation fighter, but we can expect induction to be some time off yet, especially considering their lack of experience in developing cutting edge fighters. Therefore from a technological perspective we are currently ahead of the Chinese. What we need to do is to boost our numbers.

Rather than induct a brand new platform with all the associated costs and complexity, (we already operate too many platforms more than even the mighty US airforce) i argue that we would have a sufficient deterrent if we boosted the number of our most potent platform the Mki. I would put in an order for up to another 10 squadrons of Mki's, manufactured in Russia. This way we could induct them quickly into our fleet. Our total Mki fleet needs to be around the 500 mark imo. If we signed such a large contract with the Russians it would drive the costs down due to the scale of the project. These Sukoi-s could be a category apart from our current ones i.e. Super Super Sukois incorporating technologies developed for the PAK-FA, such as newer engines, Irbis Radar, ram coatings etc. We then would have the numbers as well as the Technology to counter Chinese aggression. I would estimate that a contract for 200 Super-Super Sukoi's would be valued at about $15B. Another reason to induct more Sukoi's rather than Raffles is that Chinese targets are much much further than Pakistani targets and long range deep-strike missions is an area which the Sukoi excels at.


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## Prajapati

Rafale deal is DEAD 

Dassault *will not* stick to the RFP and *will not* cut the cost for adhering to the RFP and thus violating L1. These will be reasons given for scraping the deal.

IAF will get upgraded Su 30 MKI and a few new one's too with new orders for LCA.


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## ashwamedh

Prajapati said:


> Rafale deal is DEAD
> 
> Dassault *will not* stick to the RFP and *will not* cut the cost for adhering to the RFP and thus violating L1. These will be reasons given for scraping the deal.
> 
> IAF will get upgraded Su 30 MKI and a few new one's too with new orders for LCA.



Hope this becomes the reality....
For once India should learn from our neighbors and Indian Navy....
Induct the current version of Tejas at the earliest and continue to upgrade it continuously, rather than expecting a 4th gen fighter at the first go....
This would really help in maturing the platform....


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## sancho

In the meantime






The Aviationist » RAF Typhoon jets fly over the snow-capped Grand Canyon on their way to Red Flag





(Note, refuelling with the A330 MRTT that we still didn't bought yet, a year after selection!)

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## Gandhi follower

I hope we scrap the deal. We a poor nation can't afford such expensive toys. better to invest in good relationship with china. china is the real threat.


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## Storm Force

Concentrate on tejas mk1, and beyond 2020 on mk2 tejas.

Upgrade mki to super mki

Better sams radars etc.


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## sancho

I digged a bit around wrt the liquidity damages and responsibility issues of Dassault. Of course we won't have access to the RFP, but we can find Defence Procurement Manuals or Defence Procurement Procedures of the defence ministry on that.

*Defence Procurement Manual 2006 - Liqudated Damages:*






*Defence Procurement Manual 2009 - Liqudated Damages:*






*Defence Procurement Procedures 2013 - Liqudated Damages:






*
In all these guidelines, it is pretty clear, that the supplier / OEM (Dassault) will only be held responsible for delays that was caused by themselfs. The 2013 version, is even pretty detailed in the delivery schedule, about what must be delivered (by Dassault and partners), for the manufacture and supply of the product (Rafale) by the production agency (HAL). There is nothing that hints about the Dassault being held responsible for delays caused by HAL, so these claims can't really hold any ground.

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## Superboy

Gandhi follower said:


> better to invest in good relationship with china. china is the real threat.




Even think about taking a square inch of Aksai Chin and see what happens


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## CONNAN

*India, France discuss defence coop in backdrop of Rafale probs*

Against the backdrop of difficulties in negotiations on Rafale fighter deal, top officials of India and France met in Paris during which the issue along with other subjects related to the defence cooperation were discussed. 

At the meeting Indo-France High Defence Committee, the Indian side was headed by Defence Secretary R K Mathur while the French side was led by Secretary (International Relations) in Ministry of Defence. 

"This is an annual meeting which discusses all issues and matters relating to the defence cooperation between the two sides," sources said here when asked if the Rafale deal was discussed. 

India and France have been holding contract negotiations on supply of 126 Rafale planes since 2012 after the fighter aircraft was selected from among five contenders. 

The negotiations have lately run into rough weather over a guarantee clause and a steep rise in price. 

Making it clear that the ball is in France's court, India is insisting that Dassault Aviation, which manufactures Rafale, will have to meet the conditions of the Request for Proposal (RFP), which it had initially agreed to. 

The situation has come to such a level that France has decided to send an empowered delegation later this month to "solve all remaining issues" to salvage the contract. 

Recalling the last month's meeting between Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his French counterpart, sources said the French side was "told categorically to stick to the RFP". 

Sources said both Ministers have exchanged letters on the issue in December and an "empowered delegation" would be visiting New Delhi soon.

India, France discuss defence coop in backdrop of Rafale probs | Business Standard News

*On The Side Note*

*Original terms have to be met in Rafale jet deal: Parrikar*

NEW DELHI: India on Monday said France would have to adhere to the conditions specified in the original tender for the $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project, even as defence secretary R K Mathur left for Paris amid the deadlock over the mega deal for 126 Rafale fighters. 

"The RFP (request for proposal) terms have to be met... they cannot be diluted," defence minister Manohar Parrikar told a television channel. Ruling out any comeback by the fighters which lost out in the MMRCA race, he added, "How can another plane be considered when the L-1 (lowest bidder, the Rafale) has been determined." 

As reported by TOI earlier, finalization of the complex MMRCA project has been stuck for almost a year due to French aviation major Dassault's refusal to stand guarantee for the 108 Rafale fighters to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in India with transfer of technology after the first 18 jets are delivered off-the-shelf to IAF. 

Apart from this refusal to take responsibility in terms of liquidity damages and production timelines for the jets to be made in India, the MoD is also upset with Dassault's attempts to "change the price line" that had led to Rafale's selection over the Eurofighter Typhoon as the L-1 three years ago. 

Sources said Mathur, on a two-day visit to France, will discuss a wide range of issues, including the need for Dassault to stick to the terms and conditions laid down in the original MMRCA tender or RFP floated in August 2007. 

India wants to take a final call on the MMRCA project before Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits France and Germany in April. If Dassault does not honour its commitments made in its bids submitted to the RFP, India may be left with no option but to scrap the entire MMRCA project despite having invested almost a decade in the selection process.

Original terms have to be met in Rafale jet deal: Parrikar - The Times of India

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## halloweene

NICE FIND!


sancho said:


> I digged a bit around wrt the liquidity damages and responsibility issues of Dassault. Of course we won't have access to the RFP, but we can find Defence Procurement Manuals or Defence Procurement Procedures of the defence ministry on that.
> 
> *Defence Procurement Manual 2006 - Liqudated Damages:*
> View attachment 183691
> 
> 
> 
> *Defence Procurement Manual 2009 - Liqudated Damages:*
> View attachment 183687
> 
> 
> 
> *Defence Procurement Procedures 2013 - Liqudated Damages:
> View attachment 183688
> 
> 
> 
> *
> In all these guidelines, it is pretty clear, that the supplier / OEM (Dassault) will only be held responsible for delays that was caused by themselfs. The 2013 version, is even pretty detailed in the delivery schedule, about what must be delivered (by Dassault and partners), for the manufacture and supply of the product (Rafale) by the production agency (HAL). There is nothing that hints about the Dassault being held responsible for delays caused by HAL, so these claims can't really hold any ground.


Great find!


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## The enlightened

Superboy said:


> Even think about taking a square inch of Aksai Chin and see what happens


I just did. What am I supposed to see now.

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> NICE FIND!
> 
> Great find!



Not for Dassault, since they tried to shy away from any responsibility for the licence production part. The Liquidity damages however make clear, that the OEM / Dassault is responsible for any delay of the licence production, that is caused by Dassault, by not providing ToT, parts, tools, jigs... to HAL in time or the right manner. So Dassault can't claim responsibility only for the first 18 only and say the rest is up to HAL. So Dassault will be held responsible just as BAE was for the Hawk licence production.

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## halloweene

That is exactly what they want. Be reponsible if (and only if ) they are faulty.


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> That is exactly what they want. Be reponsible if (and only if ) they are faulty.



That's not what they state, since Dassault insisted on seperate contracts for the first 18 with the MoD / IAF and one with HAL for the delivery of parts for the licence production. That however is not possible with the DDP's and as the Indian side constantly says since 2013, is a devation of the RFP. Dassault must be held responsible by the MoD / IAF, in case they cause problems during the licence production and that's obviously not possible, if there is no contract for the 108 between the 2.


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## notsuperstitious

sancho said:


> That's not what they state, since Dassault insisted on seperate contracts for the first 18 with the MoD / IAF and one with HAL for the delivery of parts for the licence production. That however is not possible with the DDP's and as the Indian side constantly says since 2013, is a devation of the RFP. Dassault must be held responsible by the MoD / IAF, in case they cause problems during the licence production and that's obviously not possible, if there is no contract for the 108 between the 2.


 
How does the same policy apply or not apply to the Scorpene construction? There have been delays, i mean REAL delays there, but the French have not been penalised. So if the system is a fair one, what are the French apprehensions?


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## Superboy

The enlightened said:


> I just did. What am I supposed to see now.




Losing a war means losing territory or getting split up like Yugoslavia


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## Stephen Cohen

notsuperstitious said:


> How does the same policy apply or not apply to the Scorpene construction? There have been delays, i mean REAL delays there, but the French have not been penalised. So if the system is a fair one, what are the French apprehensions?



The bad experience of Scorpene and the delays there in has helped in MMRCA too

Along with the contract for the upgradation of Mirage 2000

So MOD is trying to plug as many loop holes as possible

@halloweene

What are your sources telling you ?
Any hope left


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## sancho

notsuperstitious said:


> How does the same policy apply or not apply to the Scorpene construction?



You can only hold the foreign vendors responsible for THEIR failures, not for the not existing know how of Indian ship yards with sub making after the last U209 was build and reportedly, that was the problem in the production of the scorpenes. 
In case of the Hawk trainers for instance, it was BAE's fault, since they supplied HAL with faulty jigs, which then delayed the licence production.

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## Storm Force

Can anybody shed light on this rafale saga 

Is it 50/50 or likely to cancel in favour of mki and tejas combo.


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## sancho

Storm Force said:


> Can anybody shed light on this rafale saga
> 
> Is it 50/50 or likely to cancel in favour of mki and tejas combo.




MoD has no interest in cancelling the deal, but has no reason to bow down to Dassaults demands either, that's why the Indian official stand is constant for the last 2 years. Dassault has to comply to the RFP terms and therefor can't demand to divert workshare from HAL to Reliance, nor can avoid responsibility by demanding a contract only for 18 fighters. If they finally get real and accept these terms, which the deal will come true, but if not, MKIs are an option, although not the only one, since the DM confirmed that they are always an option and not necessarily an alternative to MMRCA.

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## notsuperstitious

sancho said:


> You can only hold the foreign vendors responsible for THEIR failures, not for the not existing know how of Indian ship yards with sub making after the last U209 was build and reportedly, that was the problem in the production of the scorpenes.
> In case of the Hawk trainers for instance, it was BAE's fault, since they supplied HAL with faulty jigs, which then delayed the licence production.


 
I understand. But it seems the system is fair, then what is Dassault's problem?

@halloweene


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## Stephen Cohen

@sancho @Storm Force @halloweene @Abingdonboy


French officials to visit India to rescue stalled Rafale jet deal | idrw.org

There is some good news ; both sides are trying hard to save the deal

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## Gandhi follower

sancho said:


> MoD has no interest in cancelling the deal, but has no reason to bow down to Dassaults demands either, that's why the Indian official stand is constant for the last 2 years. Dassault has to comply to the RFP terms and therefor can't demand to divert workshare from HAL to Reliance, nor can avoid responsibility by demanding a contract only for 18 fighters. If they finally get real and accept these terms, which the deal will come true, but if not, MKIs are an option, although not the only one, since the DM confirmed that they are always an option and not necessarily an alternative to MMRCA.



why we are even negotiating on the RFP terms and conditions ? Isn't that agreed at the time of participation ?


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## Abingdonboy

Gandhi follower said:


> why we are even negotiating on the RFP terms and conditions ? Isn't that agreed at the time of participation ?


 Ask any lawyer, there is no such thing as an iron clad agreement. Wording and the "spirit" of the terms are all open for debate. When hundreds of millions are on the line, if not billions, then both sides are going to be putting their interpretation of the agreements very forcefully and this is why we are seeing the current storm around the Rafale deal.


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## Gandhi follower

Abingdonboy said:


> Ask any lawyer, there is no such thing as an iron clad agreement. Wording and the "spirit" of the terms are all open for debate. When hundreds of millions are on the line, if not billions, then both sides are going to be putting their interpretation of the agreements very forcefully and this is why we are seeing the current storm around the Rafale deal.



I will go by the words of DM, as the deal is stalled because of dassault intransigence to meet the RFP terms & conditions. They have taken India for a ride by delaying the deal and almost doubling the price.


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## sancho

Gandhi follower said:


> why we are even negotiating on the RFP terms and conditions ? Isn't that agreed at the time of participation ?



WE aren't, Dassault is!



> *Mr. Antony clarified that the criteria in the request for proposal for the MMRCAs were final and non-negotiable*, setting at rest speculation that their licensed production may be curtailed or taken out of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.



Antony rules out budgetary cuts affecting defence priorities - The Hindu



> The French group has also formed a joint venture with the Indian conglomerate Reliance, which has no former military production experience but will be involved as a supplier.
> 
> Said the air chief in response to a question that, "The contract between Dassault and Reliance does not bother us, *as per the RfP production has to be carried out in India jointly with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited*."



Deal to procure Rafale planes highest priority: Air Chief Browne - Indian Express



> *Parrikar said that the government must stand its ground and not give in during negotiations*. Parrikar’s opinion is seconded by the Joint Secretary and Acquisition Manager (Air) Rajeev Verma, who plays a key role in the deal. Verma, a 1992 UT-cadre IAS officer, *has made it clear that till the French side agrees to ministry’s demand, which was specified in the original tender, there will be no progress on the matter*. During recent meetings of the negotiations committee, Verma has been virtually hostile towards the deal, say sources.



Rafale Deal Nosedives in Negotiation Combat -The New Indian Express



> *Rafale needs to meet RFP requirements for deal: Parrikar*
> 
> ...Asked about the long stuck deal for buying medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), the minister, in an interview to Headlines Today, said: "*Ultimately, it has to fit the RFP... if it does not fit the RFP, nothing can be done.*"



Rafale needs to meet RFP requirements for deal: Parrikar


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## DrSomnath999

*Typhoon* progress includes ongoing work to integrate Storm Shadow and the capability to change target in flight, prior to launch. Meteor integration work is also progressing, and the first trial fits of Brimstone have been made.
In the RAF 2015 publication, the commander of the Typhoon force suggests that the next priority is getting funding to integrate RAPTOR, or a reconnaissance pod offering similar tactical imagery capability, to ensure that when Tornado goes out of service, the impact on capability is limited to numbers, instead of complete gaps.
On the other hand, funding for adding Conformal Fuel Tanks isn't likely to appear anytime soon.
AESA radar development is finally under contract, but there isn't, for now, a funded plan for retrofitting the radar to the Tranche 3A.
UK Armed Forces Commentary: The Equipment Plan and major projects report 2014

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## sancho

At least some news from Rafael :


> *Rafael’s ‘gatekeeper’ of the skies
> *
> ...Rafael has recently unveiled the *new version of its RecceLite* self-contained, self-cooled, multi-sensor tactical reconnaissance system.
> 
> The Reccelite XR is based on the fourth generation of the system.
> 
> *RecceLite simultaneously collects infra-red (IR) visual (VIS) and near IR digital images of large areas. The images and the data are recorded on a solid state recorder and transmitted to the ground exploitation station via the RecceLite data link*...
> 
> ...The new gimbaled version can be controlled from the ground to focus on “areas of interest”. In case of a data link failure, the system will send the images to the ground station immediately after the connection is re-established.
> 
> According to Yuval Miller, Rafael’s executive vice-president and the general manger of its Air and C4ISR systems division, the new version has improved sensors, resulting in longer range and better resolution...
> 
> ...*According to a Rafael source, the new upgraded version can look at a number of targets simultaneously and at ranges of up to 100km*


Rafael's 'gatekeeper' of the skies - Ariel View



> *Litening offered to the U.S navy’s F-18
> *
> Rafael and Northrop Grumman are in advanced stages of developing a *fifth generation of the Litening targeting pod* that will be offered to the U.S navy F-18...
> 
> ...This contract will include 300 pods and the demonstration is expected in 2017. A Rafael source said that the RFI set a standard that is far better from what the navy aircraft have today and “*we will demonstrate something that is better than anything else on the market*”...
> 
> *...Rafael sources said that the new version will have greater range and better resolution.*


Litening offered to the U.S navy's F-18 - i-HLS



> Rafael developed a new precision-guided glide bomb with a 100 kg warhead under the brand name SPICE-250. Soon in service with IAF (Israeli Air Force)...
> 
> ...*the SPICE-250 offers a complete solution with a 250 pound (100 kg) warhead to a range of 100 km. The new bomb is offered with a range of warheads for various missions, such as destroying lightly-fortified bunkers, SSM and SAM batteries, vehicles or radar stations*. The SPICE-250 will be showcased for the first time *at the Aero India 2015 exhibition*.
> 
> “In the past, a fighter aircraft had to cover a long distance and eventually release two munitions which did not always hit their targets. *Now we have fighter aircraft that can destroy close to 30 targets in a single pass*. A formation of four F-15 fighters can carry more than 100 munitions on a mission. *This changes the way air power is employed. In fact, we are breaking the paradigm regarding the effectiveness of a sorties*,” says Miller...


http://www.israeldefense.com/?CategoryID=483&ArticleID=3305


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## Abingdonboy

DrSomnath999 said:


> *Typhoon* progress includes ongoing work to integrate Storm Shadow and the capability to change target in flight, prior to launch. Meteor integration work is also progressing, and the first trial fits of Brimstone have been made.
> In the RAF 2015 publication, the commander of the Typhoon force suggests that the next priority is getting funding to integrate RAPTOR, or a reconnaissance pod offering similar tactical imagery capability, to ensure that when Tornado goes out of service, the impact on capability is limited to numbers, instead of complete gaps.
> On the other hand, funding for adding Conformal Fuel Tanks isn't likely to appear anytime soon.
> AESA radar development is finally under contract, but there isn't, for now, a funded plan for retrofitting the radar to the Tranche 3A.
> UK Armed Forces Commentary: The Equipment Plan and major projects report 2014


All talk of the EFT should stop vis a vis the MMRCA (@sancho I'm looking at you  ) as I had suspected (and vocalised) there is no way for the L2 bidder to come back into a bid. The EFT's chances are precisely zero now.

it is between the Rafale and Su-30 MKI now and I'm pretty confident it is going to go the _right_ way.


----------



## Dr Gupta

Upgrade the Sukhois we have and place a order for the S-400 system the rest can be invested in improving the domestic aerospace industry.


----------



## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> All talk of the EFT should stop vis a vis the MMRCA (@sancho I'm looking at you  ) as I had suspected (and vocalised) there is no way for the L2 bidder to come back into a bid. The EFT's chances are precisely zero now.
> 
> it is between the Rafale and Su-30 MKI now and I'm pretty confident it is going to go the _right_ way.



On the contrary my friend, the interview even showed the opposite, because the DM didn't ruled it out, nor did he admitted that the MKI is the only alternative! Instead he made it clear, that they can negotiate only with the L1 now and that the MKI is always an option, because we produce it, so it has no relation to the MMRCA as such. In case the L1 is not able to provide the product according to the requirements, the MoD will re-tender and logically will talk to the next acceptable choice, which is the L2, before they take a decision either to move on with the MMRCA or to go for the MKI option.


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## Dr Gupta

if MOD starts to negotiate with the L2 bidder it will drag on for another 1-2 years


----------



## ejaz007

*India’s M-MRCA Fighter Deal: Finish Line in Sight?*

*Latest Update:*

*Jan 12/15: India to Dassault: Take It or Leave It
*
Anticipating a need to finally have the MMRCA buttoned down before leaders meet in April, India’s Defense Ministry has been talking in the press




about its willingness to walk away from the deal



unless Dassault agrees to binding assumption of certain time and cost liabilities. Dassault can be forgiven for not wishing to assume these, given the changing and still somewhat squishy requirements the Ministry has developed. For its part, the MoD is using strong language, indicating that Dassault is “reneging” on RFP requirements.

India’s M-MRCA Fighter Deal: Finish Line in Sight?


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## SpArK



Reactions: Like Like:
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## DrSomnath999

what is the production rate /year of SU 30mki if it is from HAL or irkut??

*CHEERS*


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## Superboy

SpArK said:


>




Not up to scale?


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## sancho

@halloweene 







Here is another excerpt of the DPP2013, isn't that part talking about the responsibility of Dassault wrt the production line as well?


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## DrSomnath999

i have some nice goody goody info about Spice 250 PGM & it's relation to IAF 
but i wont post it here now let the IAF disclosed it themselves later in future

*CHEERS*


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## Stephen Cohen

DrSomnath999 said:


> i have some nice goody goody info about Spice 250 PGM & it's relation to IAF
> but i wont post it here now let the IAF disclosed it themselves later in future
> 
> *CHEERS*



Please please ; pretty please






Now dont make us beg


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## halloweene

sancho said:


> @halloweene
> 
> View attachment 184309
> 
> 
> 
> Here is another excerpt of the DPP2013, isn't that part talking about the responsibility of Dassault wrt the production line as well?


Interesting finding. Ambigous sentence.


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## magudi

Iirc parrikar clearly mentions in the interview that a govt to govt deal is possible for EF


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## DrSomnath999

in a recent article from defence update it claims Egypt is closing in a deal to acquire 20 rafales for a whopping 4.15 billion dollar

i wonder whats the price of single rafale they are buying & point to note which version too

if it's F3R then price might be greater than 100 million dollars too per single plane
Paris, Cairo ‘close to agreement’ on Rafale, FREMM deal worth 5-6 Billion | idrw.org


*CHEERS*


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## Superboy

DrSomnath999 said:


> in a recent article from defence update it claims Egypt is closing in a deal to acquire 20 rafales for a whopping 4.15 billion dollar
> 
> i wonder whats the price of single rafale they are buying & point to note which version too
> 
> if it's F3R then price might be greater than 100 million dollars too per single plane
> Paris, Cairo ‘close to agreement’ on Rafale, FREMM deal worth 5-6 Billion | idrw.org
> 
> 
> *CHEERS*




207 million USD each? No way man. There's no way.


----------



## DrSomnath999

*Air & Cosmos N 2436 15 jan 2015*







*Sisyphus

THE VISIBLE TO INVISIBLE*




Sisyphus THE PROGRAM (SPECTRO-IMAGING MEASUREMENT SYSTEM hyperspectral SHIPPED PROPERTIES) 
STARTS A NEW STAGE WITH LAUNCH OF ASSESSMENT OPERATIONAL CONDITIONS ON SCENARIOS DEFINED DGA: TARGET DETECTION camouflaged DISCRIMINATION LURES ...

The General Armaments Department has notified the market for a period of 44 months at Onera to assess, in operational conditions, the Franco-Norwegian airborne demonstrator Sisyphus (System imaging spectrometer for measuring embedded hyperspectral properties) . Developed as part of a study upstream of the DGA. Sisyphus is a unique and innovative system in Europe. "This study, the program started from a PEA which was to demonstrate the contribution of multi- and hyper-spectral imaging in the detection of areas, recognition and identification of defense needs. Sisyphus is rather airborne appearance, with observation of a sufficient distance, ie Space or embedded carriers, "commented Laurent Rousset-

Rouviere, head of Sisyphus program.

*A RESOLUTION OF 50 CM GROUND.*

The peculiarity of Sisyphus is to be a research medium that has great performance. At 2000 m, the resolution is 50 cm on the ground. Sisyphus also has a high spectral resolution with 500 color bands and a radiometric resolution. "In other words, the lowest noise to get as many details as possible in the light level," adds Laurent Rousset-Rouviere. Sisyphus was launched in 2007, Onera is the prime contractor

system and defined the specifications for Norway. The latter was involved in the development of hyperspectral system near infrared, named Odin. "The Norwegians are very advanced in the development of near-infrared instruments. Under Sysiphe. they were asked to produce a more effective instrument in the visible hyperspectral field, we bring our side infrared in the form of Sieleters, covering the middle infrared bands or MWIR (3 to 5.5 pm) and long (8 to 11.5 pm). We are really complementary to that fact, "says Laurent Rousset-Rouviere.



pg 2



*CLEARING AND georeferencing.*

A Odin and Sieleters, adds a third data processing instrument whose design was provided by the ONERA Toulouse site, which collects Odin and Sieleters data to construct the entire spectrum. "Recalibration is 11: the same pixel is the corresponding spectrum. 11 There is also another algorithm called compensation effects of the atmosphere. Since we are airborne, the atmosphere has a certain transmission, a certain issue, it is necessary

atmosphere back to the optical properties of the scene and objects, that is to say, their emissivity réfectance, and see the temperature of the object. The result is in the form of either luminance georeferenced maps, that is to say in the unit of luminous flux, either réfectance emissivity or temperature of the scenes, "adds Laurent Rousset-Rouviere.

*800 KG FOR 2 TO 3 M3.*

The dedicated test platform is a Dornier Do-228, borrowed from the DLR. "The instrument is quite large and this unit has a hatch floor large enough size to be able to pass the 800 kg and 2 to 3 m3 of the whole, "says Laurent Rousset-Rouviere. The unit flies slowly, 260 km / h. "We are not yet at an operational system that could be installed on a Rafale, for example. We are looking for the moment to have performance. We also want to demonstrate the value and capabilities of this technology. The design of an operational system to go on a given vector will eventually "adds Laurent Rousset-Rouviere.

The system was installed on the C-228. The test campaign began in September 2013 in Cazaux. The system has been qualified according to the specifications given at the beginning of the market, a resolution of 50 cm on the ground, a large swath of 500 m wide, a band of 3 km long on average as well as a list of parameters techniques, defining the quality of the instrument, to verify and measure the field. This campaign took place over a period of two weeks and a half. "This has been a great success. We flew almost every day,

by collecting 62 km from the data, which is pretty phenomenal. We then went flying over the ONERA site Fauga-Mauzac where we installed white panels and different materials such as sand, polystyrene, on asphalt or concrete, to see the differences in luminance each material, "says Laurent Rousset-Rouviere. A ground crew was making field measurements, while the plane was flying over the site to acquire hyperspectral data at 2000 m altitude. Which was then used to compare the data collected in flight measurements

that had been made on the ground to see if the instrument responded well to the requirements.

*DETECTION ANOMALY.*

Following these tests, the DGA has recently reported a new forty-four months market. The objective is to test the market Sysiphe on military operational scenarios. These scenarios will be determined and implemented by the French and Norwegian Ministries of Defence, before being implemented on the ground on the site of Canjuers. "We'll just fly over the site to try to find what was erythematosus. We are no longer in production of hyperspectral imaging, but one step further. We now use code to handle these hyperspectral data, "adds Laurent Rousset-Rouviere. On a headband 3 km long and 500 m wide, more than 500 images of the same scene are harvested. It is therefore impossible to watch every shot in order to find something wrong. "We have the advantage of having at our disposal of computers and algorithms that can mean we quickly anomalies they belong, that's what we call anomaly detection. Take the case of a camouflage net in a field, the system will inform the operator of the different signature from the surrounding vegetation, "says Laurent Rousset-Rouviere. The first campaign is expected to begin in August 2015. The use of the system tests degraded weather conditions are also provided, that is to say in the presence of scattered clouds above the plane that change the light output from the sky.

*POLLUTION AND GAS.*

"We are also going to look at the night hyperspectral, which has many elements of interest, as the field of gas, we can determine whether a polluted industrial site or if there is presence of poison gas, for example. We are able to characterize all effluent of an industrial site, whether liquid, solid or gaseous. Sisyphus is also a national and international system in the sense that anyone can ask for data acquisition in the civil context as a soldier in the NATO framework or partnership with the European De-fence Agency (EDA), "concludes Laurent Rousset-Rouviere.


*P.S so some sort of imaging system is being developed to be installed in fighter planes in future*


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## sancho

> *ANALYSIS: We check out Eurofighter's P1E upgrade in simulator*
> 
> In mid-November 2014, _Flight International_ was given the opportunity to visit BAE Systems’ facility at Warton in Lancashire, to be briefed by its Eurofighter Typhoon chief test pilot Mark Bowman and project manager Luke Dickson about the successful introduction and first deliveries to the Royal Air Force under the Phase 1 Enhancement (P1E) programme...
> 
> ...Now an active programme, *the P2E phase will integrate MBDA’s Meteor beyond visual-range air-to-air missile and the same company’s Storm Shadow cruise missile. The subsequent P3E activity will integrate its Brimstone system, with Spear 3 to follow* – which is also slated for use with the UK’s F-35Bs.
> 
> If contracted as expected, a *P3E-standard Typhoon delivered to the RAF in 2018 could be configured with a weapons mix* drawn from two short-range *ASRAAM* missles, four *Meteors*, two *Storm Shadows*, six *Brimstones* (on a pair of triple-round launchers), four *Paveway IVs* (on two double-store launchers), two external fuel tanks and a targeting pod. This will represent a very powerful multi-role combination.
> 
> “A subsequent retrofit of the Euroradar Captor E active electronically scanned array [AESA] will further strengthen Typhoon’s potency,” says BAE. To replace the mechanically-scanned Captor M radar on T3 aircraft, the AESA sensor is also to be offered as a modernisation option for T2 examples. *Operational flight testing is expected to start in 2016*...
> 
> ...The Eurofighter’s IRST system is also seamlessly coupled to the radar to increase detection capability, and displayed against the target symbols for situational awareness as to which sensor (or both) had detection. I found the direct voice input function to be another superb piece of man machine interface. It takes some initial getting used to in terms of spoken format, but once mastered it is a very real combat aid for a pilot.
> 
> *My only regret in the air-to-air mode was that the aircraft does not have an integral nose-mounted electro-optical sensor to complement the IRST for stealthy long-range visual target identification. BAE notes, however, that the system can be used in this context when a laser designation pod is fitted.* [he means an optical system like Rafales FSO-TV channel. It's funny though that BAE tries to counter the lack of a TV channel with an LDP, while Thales tries to counter the lack of an IR channel with an LDP too]
> 
> ...My short simulator sessions easily answered my two set objectives. Anchored by P1E, the Eurofighter’s pending AESA radar, the Striker 2 HMD and the aircraft’s massive inherent energy performance, *the Typhoon is now focused properly on its planned upgrade path to marry unmatched lethality in both the air-to-ground and air-to-air roles. *Additionally, the Tranche 2 and 3 models can now ‘swing’ between either combat role and back again with the push of one HOTAS button, and be ready to fight instantly in that advanced configuration.
> 
> The P1E package properly baselines the Typhoon to fully realise its undoubted combat potential. The RAF is now fielding a true multi-role aircraft that can face any threat out to 2030 or beyond.



ANALYSIS: We check out Eurofighter's P1E upgrade in simulator - 1/19/2015 - Flight Global

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## sancho

Google translated



> *Egypt dream Rafale and frigates but do not really have the means*
> 
> *Faced with the refusal of Paris to finance 100% of its shopping list, Cairo will probably have to revise its ambitions down. *
> 
> Caught between its regional power ambitions and its tense financial situation, Egypt dream to equip its army of the art equipment, but do not really afford it. Late last year, Cairo has expressed its desire to acquire a big twenty and two Rafale multi-mission frigates FREMM, but the reality principle is taking hold: those figures, little credible from the outset given the sums involved, lived and "shopping list" if it goes ahead, will probably have to be revised downwards.
> 
> Enjoying good relations with France, *and probably knowing full well that she has an imperative need to export the Rafale *and the FREMM to keep his military planning law, *the Egyptian military hoped - or pretends to hope - that the Paris could fund five or six billion euros needed for such purchases*. Bercy in response Substances agree to finance part, but only part, for you to find the rest...
> 
> ...All assumptions are on the table: to reduce the quantities referred from geometrically similar manner to favor the FREMM Rafale (or more likely the reverse), or if the budget equation is too difficult to solve, play more modest. *The military could well be "satisfied" of a modernization of its Mirage 2000 to provide air-ground capabilities based AASM missile, which would avoid Safran to close its plant.*



L’Egypte rêve de Rafale et de frégates mais n’en a pas vraiment les moyens, Aéronautique - Défense


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## DrSomnath999

roflmao

2 cruise missile along with 2 EFT on typhoon 

really !!

Now where the hell did it get another wet station for typhoon from moon!! 



*CHEERS*


----------



## Abingdonboy

> a big team from Airbus is set to land in India on January 21, ahead of US President Barack Obama’s visit. The timing of the visit is significant, say informed sources.





> The work share pattern of the 108 aircraft to be made in India is the bone of contention,”





> Since there are several other Indian manufacturers who would supply and manufacture the rest of the parts, their names and work shares are all being sorted out,”






> “out of the four major contracts, three are signed and in the dock. One contract is in the last stages.”





> “since several Indian sub contractors have already been identified by the French authorities during their visit to India in February and March last year.”






> Sources have indicated that the Rafale deal could be sealed by March 31



Airbus team coming, Rafale deal by March end, say sources | Business Line


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## Bhuvan93

$22 Billion? Woah...


----------



## halloweene

Airbus has nothing to do with Rafale. Their shares in Dassault are just a historical heritage, but they have 0 decision power.


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## rockstarIN

halloweene said:


> Airbus has nothing to do with Rafale. Their shares in Dassault are just a historical heritage, but they have 0 decision power.



What control does the French Govt. have over Dassault? 

As per sources below is the share holding pattern


Dassault Group (50.55%)
Airbus Group (46.32%)
Private investors (3.13%)
If Airbus has no voting rights (as mentioned by @sancho) in other thread, It can be bought by any other private investors from Mr. Claude Dassault.


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## GURU DUTT

its final rafale is not coming to india and about the future MRCA of india well we willhear on it after the obamas latest visit to india is over


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> What control does the French Govt. have over Dassault?
> 
> As per sources below is the share holding pattern
> 
> 
> Dassault Group (50.55%)
> Airbus Group (46.32%)
> Private investors (3.13%)
> If Airbus has no voting rights (as mentioned by @sancho) in other thread, It can be bought by any other private investors from Mr. Claude Dassault.



Airbus already sold a part of that and is willing to sell more, but unless you aim on financial gains, those shares won't get you anything wrt influence on the company.


----------



## halloweene

rockstarIN said:


> What control does the French Govt. have over Dassault?
> 
> As per sources below is the share holding pattern
> 
> 
> Dassault Group (50.55%)
> Airbus Group (46.32%)
> Private investors (3.13%)
> If Airbus has no voting rights (as mentioned by @sancho) in other thread, It can be bought by any other private investors from Mr. Claude Dassault.



French state has a "goldenshare". Dassault cannot sell its actions shares under 50%+1 without state allowance.


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## sancho

@halloweene 

Any "unofficial" news about the negotiations? Any hope that the deal makes a positive turn?


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## halloweene

Absolute secrecy...


----------



## sancho

halloweene said:


> Absolute secrecy...



Well, that's at least not a bad sign.


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## Stephen Cohen

sancho said:


> Well, that's at least not a bad sign.



Did that Airbus team come or not


----------



## sancho

Stephen Cohen said:


> Did that Airbus team come or not



That was about sending a team to Aero India and not wrt MMRCA or the Eurofighter.


----------



## Stephen Cohen

@sancho 

Airbus team coming, Rafale deal by March end, say sources | Business Line

This news says that the Airbus team would be visiting for MMRCA negotiations


----------



## sancho

Stephen Cohen said:


> @sancho
> 
> Airbus team coming, Rafale deal by March end, say sources | Business Line
> 
> This news says that the Airbus team would be visiting for MMRCA negotiations



 Indian media at it's best, they just mixed up reports:

French team to visit New Delhi to rescue S$26.6b Rafale jet deal | TODAYonline

Aero India 2015: Airbus Plans Major Presence, Job Fair -The New Indian Express

Airbus has no relation to Rafale!


----------



## Stephen Cohen

@sancho 

IF Airbus has a stake in Dassault / Rafale then it would be interested in knowing 
details of any agreement between India and Dassault 

Simply because these liability clauses ; workshare agreements 
all have financial implications 

Maybe it is Airbus which is preventing Dassault from accepting such terms and conditions
as laid down in RFP


----------



## sancho

Stephen Cohen said:


> @sancho
> 
> IF Airbus has a stake in Dassault / Rafale then it would be interested in knowing
> details of any agreement between India and Dassault



As explained in earlier posts, the Dassault shares Airbus holds have no voting rights, so Airbus has no influence in Dassault. Also Airbus has no share in the development of Rafale, therefor is not part of the Rafale Team (Dassault, Thales, Snecma).

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## Etilla

sancho said:


> Indian media at it's best, they just mixed up reports:
> 
> French team to visit New Delhi to rescue S$26.6b Rafale jet deal | TODAYonline
> 
> Aero India 2015: Airbus Plans Major Presence, Job Fair -The New Indian Express
> 
> Airbus has no relation to Rafale!



How is MMRCA deal $26.6 billion?

Parrikar in recent interview to Karan Thapar wrt to terror boat incident said price of Rafale deal is not even close to 100000 crore.

Now 1 lakh crore is $15.8 billion 

So approx price if taken at 80000 crore means $12.7 billion 
More realisitic i would say


----------



## Storm Force

If this deal goes through

MASSIVE IF

The cost will be 126 fighters (latest version with aesa radar F3R)) x $120m = $15 Billon approx.

Another $3 billion for TOT and setting up production in india

And another $4.5 for weapons mica scalp WVR missles bombs etc.

*THE MAGIC NUMBER IS $22.5 billion* 

YOU CAN QUOTE ME ON THIS IN MARCH WHEN DEAL IS SIGNED


----------



## Etilla

Cost is not a factor






meeting the messed up rfp terms is delay factor

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## SpArK




----------



## DrSomnath999

RAFALE India - Affordable Air Power

RAFALE India - Easy Maintenance already support proven

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## sancho

> *State Of Play: Three Years Since India Chose Rafale *
> 
> There are few things like defence procurement that make the passage of time seem nothing. So it shouldn't shake anyone up that its been three years today that the Indian government chose the Dassault Aviation Rafale in the final downselect of the medium multirole combat aircraft (M-MRCA) competition. The M-MRCA competition has acquired mythological status now. It has its own folklore, its own (sometimes apocryphal) anecdotes of the twists and turns. The years have almost completely transformed the programme and how it is perceived. The wisdom of years usually provides insight. The galling thing about the M-MRCA is that it has lost none of its capacity to enthral, mystify, perplex. I've already told you what currently stalls negotiations between India and, well, France. So, as we head into air show month and mark three years since the M-MRCA downselect, here's 5 developments that, in their own way, tell you where things are...:



LIVEFIST: State Of Play: Three Years Since India Chose Rafale

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## sancho

> Apart from M777, what are the other things you are trying to look at in the near to medium term?
> 
> Ian King: There’s the Future Infantry Combat vehicle is a programme where it seems budgets have been placed. Then there’s the Tactical Communications Systems (TCS) programme and with Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL).
> 
> *We haven’t given up on Combat aircraft [For Eurofighter Typhoon under MMRCA]. Our position is that we think we have given a competitive offer and we stand ready. We’ve proven that with an aircraft we can transfer technology, we can set up assembly [line], we can work with HAL...*



BAE Systems enthused about 'Make in India', upbeat on M777 guns - The Hindu


----------



## halloweene

Ahem...

Indian Navy selects OTO Melara 127/64 LW gun - IHS Jane's 360


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## Stephen Cohen

@halloweene 

ANY news about Rafale ; Did that French delegation come to India


----------



## sancho

halloweene said:


> Ahem...
> 
> Indian Navy selects OTO Melara 127/64 LW gun - IHS Jane's 360



You do realize that that's an own goal right? 



> *The MoD also wanted the vendors to undertake production, quality control and timeline guarantees* for the BHEL-produced naval guns but *without providing the vendor with executive or supervisory authority over the public sector company*.



The same rules and guarantees that Dassault is rejecting, with the difference, that BAE had rejected them right away and did not entered into the competition, while Dassault acceppted the rules of the RFP as well as the DPP and rejected them only after being selected as the L1.
The article also states, that Oto Merla has no issues with these regulations, because they have experience in licence productions with BHEL and BAE has the same with HAL trough the Jaguar and Hawk licence productions too and we know that they acceppted the liability damage clause in the Hawk production as well!

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## halloweene

Stephen Cohen said:


> @halloweene
> 
> ANY news about Rafale ; Did that French delegation come to India


Already went to india and back, will go again very soon.



> while Dassault acceppted the rules of the RFP as well as the DPP and rejected them only after being selected as the L1.



BAE also competed for MMRCA. To my knowledge, there wasn't any such clause in RFP.

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> BAE also competed for MMRCA. To my knowledge, there wasn't any such clause in RFP.



Which only means, they accepted the terms in this case and so far there is no official statement that would show something else, only from Dassault. 
Can't tell about the RFP, the DPP 2006 which is the base for the tender included Liability Damages and Performance Guarantees:

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## Stephen Cohen

@halloweene @sancho 

I found this in an Indian magazine

Source Three Rafales Returning To Aero India, Good News In Store?
- SP’s Exculsive

The reality is, since at least mid-2013, negotiations have remained largely stalled over crucial issues that include: Responsibility for the 108 aircraft in terms of liability, damages and attendant clauses on access, inspection and post-manufacture testing. Dassault's concern is that HAL hasn't built up any of the fixed assets which the company feels would be the minimum requirement to begin discussing the modalities of the kind of liability HAL wants Dassault to take on for the jets built in India.

With the last 60 aircraft to be as much as 90% 'Made in India', the ball is apparently in HAL's court, with Dassault telling the Cost Negotiation Committee (CNC) that it still awaits figures from HAL on the financial specifics of the liability it is seeking to transfer to Dassault. Dassault has asked HAL to clarify the specifics of any similar liability parameters in comparable deals like HAL's Su-30 MKI production line on license from Russia. Modalities of licensee/licensor and the manner in which the final agreement sets down their roles. Things are actually more contentious than most believe/report.

Dassault has even flagged up issues with access to HAL's facilities. A French delegation empowered to smoothen out negotiations is understood to be in the process of attempting to smoothen out issues that keep the deal from an early conclusion.


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## sancho

> *Saudi Arabia reportedly bought MBDA's Meteor air-to-air missiles for its Typhoon fighter aircraft*
> 
> The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and European missiles manufacturer MBDA have signed the first export contract of the Meteor active radar guided beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM), for an estimated amount of $1 bn, reports today French newspaper La Tribune.
> The Meteor missiles will be fitted on the 24 Eurofighter Typhoon fighter aircraft already delivered to the Royal Saudi Air Force, according to La Tribune...



Saudi Arabia reportedly bought MBDA's Meteor air-to-air missiles for its Typhoon fighter aircraft

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## Stephen Cohen

@sancho @Abingdonboy @halloweene @DrSomnath999 

A little bit of GOOD news

Everything is normal: France on Rafale deal | Business Line

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## sancho

Stephen Cohen said:


> A little bit of GOOD news



Actually nothing new, our point is clear, it's now on Dassault to comply or not. The French government is not the issue, it wasn't for the UAE either, but there as well, it's Dassault's negotiations issues that stalled the deal.


----------



## Stephen Cohen

sancho said:


> Actually nothing new, our point is clear, it's now on Dassault to comply or not. The French government is not the issue, it wasn't for the UAE either, but there as well, it's Dassault's negotiations issues that stalled the deal.



What this news means ; in simple terms is that there has been progress
on the contentious issues ; let it take some more time 

At least we will get a good deal


----------



## Otocal

sancho said:


> Actually nothing new, our point is clear, it's now on Dassault to comply or not. The French government is not the issue, it wasn't for the UAE either, but there as well, it's Dassault's negotiations issues that stalled the deal.



As per CVC rules L2 cannot be selected.

Half the MoD will land up in jail if negotiations forget procurement are restarted with EFT gmbh


----------



## sancho

Otocal said:


> As per CVC rules L2 cannot be selected.
> 
> Half the MoD will land up in jail if negotiations forget procurement are restarted with EFT gmbh



Only as long as negotiations with the L1 are running, if the L1 howver can't comply to the requirements of the tender, the MoD has to retender either by directly going to the L2 and start negotiations with them, or to start the whole tender again. The latter won't happen anymore, so if Rafale is out, the MoD surely will talk once again with the EF consortium and see what they can get or take the worst case scenario and stick to MKIs and LCAs, without technical or industrial advantages.


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## Otocal

sancho said:


> Only as long as negotiations with the L1 are running, if the L1 howver can't comply to the requirements of the tender, the MoD has to retender either by directly going to the L2 and start negotiations with them, or to start the whole tender again. The latter won't happen anymore, so if Rafale is out, the MoD surely will talk once again with the EF consortium and see what they can get or take the worst case scenario and stick to MKIs and LCAs, without technical or industrial advantages.



MoD cannot go to L2 as per CVC (Central Vigilance Commission) rules.

Only way for EF consortium is for MMRCA to be scrapped and a govt. to govt deal for 126 Eurofighters. (Watch karan thapar-manohar parrikar interview) I don't see that happening. Impossible for IAF or GoI to justify buying an even more expensive and less technologically advanced mrca (no aesa) with a fraction of L1 availability.


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## sancho

Otocal said:


> MoD cannot go to L2 as per CVC (Central Vigilance Commission) rules.
> 
> Only way for EF consortium is for MMRCA to be scrapped and a govt. to govt deal for 126 Eurofighters. (*Watch karan thapar-manohar parrikar interview*) I don't see that happening. Impossible for IAF or GoI to justify buying an even more expensive and less technologically advanced mrca (no aesa) with a fraction of L1 availability.



Parrikar didn't said anywhere in the interview that they can't go back to the EF / L2 anymore, infact he even purposly avoided to say anything about the EF twice in the interview, when he was asked if the only alternative is the MKI? He stated that he can't talk to others when they already negotiation with the L1 and that the MKI is always an option, since it's outside of the tender.
Not to mention that we have seen the same before in other tenders like for consultancy partner of N-LCA, where LM was selected as L1, but wasn't able to get US government approval contrary to what they have proposed in their initial bid, as the result, the L2 Airbus got the deal.


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## Otocal

sancho said:


> Parrikar didn't said anywhere in the interview that they can't go back to the EF / L2 anymore, infact he even purposly avoided to say anything about the EF twice in the interview, when he was asked if the only alternative is the MKI? He stated that he can't talk to others when they already negotiation with the L1 and that the MKI is always an option, since it's outside of the tender.
> Not to mention that we have seen the same before in other tenders like for consultancy partner of N-LCA, where LM was selected as L1, but wasn't able to get US government approval contrary to what they have proposed in their initial bid, as the result, the L2 Airbus got the deal.



He said how can you go to L2 when there is L1? 

Of course we can do a govt-govt deal

his words not mine. Yes he avoided speaking too much about it in order to not influence the CNC too much


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## sancho

Otocal said:


> He said how can you go to L2 when there is L1?



Exactly, which only means, that as long as the L1 is not rejected he can't go to the L2! And as I said, he was asked twice if the EF is out and didn't said no.


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## Otocal

sancho said:


> Exactly, which only means, that as long as the L1 is not rejected he can't go to the L2! And as I said, he was asked twice if the EF is out and didn't said no.








Where has he said that EF is not out? twice?

He did not mention that as per CVC rules L2 cannot be selected in any tender. If MoD initiates negotiations with EFT GMBH then MoD (entire) will face the law. Resignation will follow. He wants to do the exact opposite which is why he canceled the minesweeper deal as a goa shipyard was involved and he felt he could somehow have his image tarnished.


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## sancho

Otocal said:


> Where has he said that EF is not out? twice?



Again, he was asked twice if the EF is out and both times avoided the answer by pointing to the above mentioned points. So the fact remains, he never said that the EF is out or that it couldn't be an alternative if the Rafale is out.

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## Otocal

sancho said:


> Again, he was asked twice if the EF is out and both times avoided the answer by pointing to the above mentioned points. So the fact remains, he never said that the EF is out or that it couldn't be an alternative if the Rafale is out.



He has to follow the law

1. L2 cannot be selected as per CVC rules. 
2. To buy Eurofighter he has to do a govt. to govt deal

Anyways why do you like it so much? 10% availability and defects in rear fuselage with all deliveries stopped its hardly meets IAF's needs.


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## Hindustani78

Everything is normal: France on Rafale deal | Zee News
Thursday, February 5, 2015 - 00:17


New Delhi: Putting a brave face despite the multi-billion dollar Rafale fighter jet contract flowing into rough weather, France on Wednesday claimed that everything is going "normal".


Interestingly, French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius will not be raising the issue of the much delayed Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) during his three day-visit beginning tomorrow.

"Clearly the defence procurement is not part of the agenda of this visit," said French sources refusing to comment on the Rafale deal.

Asked again, the sources said the exchanges between French and Indian sides continues. "Everything is at its normal path," they said.

India has made it clear that the ball is in France's court on the signing of the contract.

India is insisting that Dassault Aviation, which manufactures Rafale, cannot renege on the Request for Proposal (RFP) clauses, which it had initially agreed to.

They say France must stick to the price that it had quoted in the RFP and guarantee clause under which Dassault has to stand guarantee for the planes that would be manufactured by state-owned HAL.


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## halloweene

I can explain that. There's been an internal war between Fabius and le Drian about who should be responsible for weapons export. Le Drian won it and Fabius was told to stfu. So, at least officially there will be no talks about it.


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## PARIKRAMA

@halloweene 
Are they still so tight lipped about any new breakthrough? Your sources are also fully silent?


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## Abingdonboy

*PM Modi may fly in Rafale at air show*

_[...]With the presence of french minister for foreign affairs and international development Laurent Fabius in New Delhi, Dassault has offered Mr Modi a trip during the upcoming Aero India in Bengaluru, which will be inaugurated by the Prime Minister February 18, sources said. “We are looking at the possibility of Mr Modi flying in a fighter jet. There are talks under way and it will be confirmed in a week,” government sources said.[...]_

More:
http://www.asianage.com/india/pm-mod...e-air-show-801


Hmmmm this could be interesting. Although there could be a number of reasons Modi may not end up flying in the Rafale (medical, safety concerns etc), if he does then the likelihood of the Rafale being ordered is high IMHO.



halloweene said:


> I can explain that. There's been an internal war between Fabius and le Drian about who should be responsible for weapons export. Le Drian won it and Fabius was told to stfu. So, at least officially there will be no talks about it.


Implications for the Rafale sale to India, if any?

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## Hindustani78

Abingdonboy said:


> *PM Modi may fly in Rafale at air show*
> 
> _[...]With the presence of french minister for foreign affairs and international development Laurent Fabius in New Delhi, Dassault has offered Mr Modi a trip during the upcoming Aero India in Bengaluru, which will be inaugurated by the Prime Minister February 18, sources said. “We are looking at the possibility of Mr Modi flying in a fighter jet. There are talks under way and it will be confirmed in a week,” government sources said.[...]_
> 
> More:
> http://www.asianage.com/india/pm-mod...e-air-show-801
> 
> 
> Hmmmm this could be interesting. Although there could be a number of reasons Modi may not end up flying in the Rafale (medical, safety concerns etc), if he does then the likelihood of the Rafale being ordered is high IMHO.
> 
> 
> Implications for the Rafale sale to India, if any?



Press information Bureau. Government of India

07-February, 2015 18:59 IST
*Reports of Prime Minister to Fly in a French Fighter Jet at Aero India Denied 
*
With reference to a news item in a section of the media that “At Aero India, PM may fly in a Rafale”, it is clarified that there is no plan for the Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi to fly in any fighter jet. The news item is incorrect, misconceived and is not based on facts.

It is further clarified that the conduct of Aero India, a premier aero-show of Asia, has no linkage with any of the acquisition plans pursued by the Ministry of Defence. Aero India- 2015, to be held in Bengaluru from 18 to 22 February, will witness the participation of most of the original defence equipment manufactures from across the globe. As such, the event held biennially, provides defence manufacturers to showcase their products and innovations taking in the field.

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## DrSomnath999

* FROM FLIGHT INTERNATIONAL FEB 10*













Courtesy-Olybrius

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## sancho

> Make in India theme for upcoming Aero India in Bangalore. Even invite has Modi magic.



Aviator Anil Chopra (@Chopsyturvey)


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> View attachment 191147
> 
> View attachment 191148
> 
> 
> 
> Aviator Anil Chopra (@Chopsyturvey)


The EFT consortium and SAAB have been heavily investing in such advertising in India for the past year, seems desperate but I guess they have to, just to say they did...

The L2 bidders can't come back into the race, as stated by the DM himself so it seems rather futile nonetheless.

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## Turingsage

its utterly disgusting the way India manages its procurements. A combination of bollywood, trying to get that shit blocking the u-bend out and power politics. Combine this with total inability to think, make clear decisions with competing politicians controlling how much rent is due to them and how they can extract the last cent for themselves and the defence of the nation is the least of their concern.

With useless companies like HAL designed for the purpose of defence ministers to have something they can play with and mangle to their own desires you have a khichri that has a disgusting smell.

HAL to go around saying to dassault, we will make the aircraft, if we make a bodge of it as we have done with practically all projects, you pay and by the way you cant come and check that we are not using chair leg to hammer in the flight controls upside down. its a effing joke.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> The EFT consortium and SAAB have been heavily investing in such advertising in India for the past year, seems desperate but I guess they have to, just to say they did...



But a pretty smart PR don't you think? Basically an invitation to the EF to be made in India, they only had to add the PM's picture. 



Abingdonboy said:


> The L2 bidders can't come back into the race, as stated by the DM himself so it seems rather futile nonetheless.



Again, he never stated that!

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Again, he never stated that!


Pretty sure he said just that in his interview. I'll check when I get home  


+ a very smart move by EFT consortium. Dassualt definetly missed a trick there.


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## anant_s

sancho said:


>




Thats interesting, when did that happen?


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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> Again, he never stated that!



The rules do make it impossible to go to L2 but let me ask you a tantalizing question......what if in the wake of the supposed price increases of Rafale the MoD determines that Rafale is not actually L1 & EF is L1? Most tenders don't have this complication -L1 remains lowest, this one is different & does allow us to speculate?_(only) _

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## Prajapati

Bang Galore said:


> The rules do make it impossible to go to L2 but let me ask you a tantalizing question......what if in the wake of the supposed price increases of Rafale the MoD determines that Rafale is not actually L1 & EF is L1? Most tenders don't have this complication -L1 remains lowest, this one is different & does allow us to speculate?_(only) _



You are probably unaware of govt. rules regarding tendering. Once L-1 is established that particular tender is OVER. 

When MOD says that Rafale must stick to the RFP it means that Rafale CANNOT increased the price ad hoc. It can only increase it as determined in the RFP. It would be around 8-10% per every financial year. 

Rafale has tried to trick the previous govt. and its negotiation committee by their blackmail and bag of tricks, it is unlikely to work with Parrikar OR Modi. .......... Rafale is unlikely to back down either, leaving only one possible conclusion.


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## anant_s

Bang Galore said:


> The rules do make it impossible to go to L2 but let me ask you a tantalizing question......what if in the wake of the supposed price increases of Rafale the MoD determines that Rafale is not actually L1 & EF is L1? Most tenders don't have this complication -L1 remains lowest, this one is different & does allow us to speculate?_(only) _



Sir here is how it works. The initial indent proposal/tender/PFP has to mention the cost calculation method. In this case for example MoD defined life cycle costs (consisting of initial capital cost, running or flying cost) as basis of determining the Lowest-1 (L-1) bidder. There is a plain method of doing it by simply adding the capital cost and then adding the expenses expected for flying divided by expected flying hours (6000 hrs in this case i suppose) plus maintenance cost expected (Spares included) and the depreciation. 
Now the issue gets complicated when you compare two seemingly identical machines that may have different set of maintenance requirement. Assume hypothetically that Rafale's engine would require engine maintenance after 1000 flying hours (so total 5 in all for 6000 hrs) and EFT's would require so after say 2000 hrs (total 2). Let us also assume that each overhaul for Rafale would cost $10 but for EFT it is $50, so at the end of 6000 hrs you would find, just for one component you've paid $50 more during entire life. This way you can add for all possible components and work out a value., however it is quite complex considering there could be cases where two or more components are affected by one another.
Now as far as rules for procurement are concerned, in two part bidding system (Financial and technical), the technical requirements and their adequacy was adjudged by IAF long time back and after doing above calculations, L-1 cost was also found in favor of Dassault. 
It is pertinent to quote here that officials have said this difference of cost as razor thin.
But guidelines for procurement clearly indicate that one cannot go to any other bidder other than L-1 even for negotiations. So theoretically even if EFT brings down its cost to that of Dassault's offer or even lower, you cannot place an order on them. The process requires Re-Tendering. 
But in all i guess it isn't correct to speculate that cost is the factor behind delay of deal, the reasons as DM states are Dassault's hesitance from taking guarantee of HAL's part of deal and since this was a part of original tender, the condition cannot be waived off. The logic is if t so happens, theoretically it would've been possible to procure the items at lower cost from L-2 bidder as rules fo tender has changed. this is called Post Facto changes and aren't allowed without very solid justifications. I don't think DM or PM would take a chance here.
I'll also narrate a relevant situation, i once heard at a training seminar. This was on Public procurement system and faculty was ex GM of East Central Railways. One person from a PSU asked what should be done in case there are two L-1 bidders (a scenario similar to what we might be having here with Dassault and Rafale's offer being very very close). to which it was replied that under such a scenario, the buyer can call both party's for negotiation by disclosing the initial and final price bid of other. This way laws of natural justice isn't violated.

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## Bang Galore

Prajapati said:


> You are probably unaware of govt. rules regarding tendering. Once L-1 is established that particular tender is OVER.
> 
> When MOD says that Rafale must stick to the RFP it means that Rafale CANNOT increased the price ad hoc. It can only increase it as determined in the RFP. It would be around 8-10% per every financial year.
> 
> Rafale has tried to trick the previous govt. and its negotiation committee by their blackmail and bag of tricks, it is unlikely to work with Parrikar OR Modi. .......... Rafale is unlikely to back down either, leaving only one possible conclusion.





anant_s said:


> Sir here is how it works. The initial indent proposal/tender/PFP has to mention the cost calculation method. In this case for example MoD defined life cycle costs (consisting of initial capital cost, running or flying cost) as basis of determining the Lowest-1 (L-1) bidder. There is a plain method of doing it by simply adding the capital cost and then adding the expenses expected for flying divided by expected flying hours (6000 hrs in this case i suppose) plus maintenance cost expected (Spares included) and the depreciation.
> Now the issue gets complicated when you compare two seemingly identical machines that may have different set of maintenance requirement. Assume hypothetically that Rafale's engine would require engine maintenance after 1000 flying hours (so total 5 in all for 6000 hrs) and EFT's would require so after say 2000 hrs (total 2). Let us also assume that each overhaul for Rafale would cost $10 but for EFT it is $50, so at the end of 6000 hrs you would find, just for one component you've paid $50 more during entire life. This way you can add for all possible components and work out a value., however it is quite complex considering there could be cases where two or more components are affected by one another.
> Now as far as rules for procurement are concerned, in two part bidding system (Financial and technical), the technical requirements and their adequacy was adjudged by IAF long time back and after doing above calculations, L-1 cost was also found in favor of Dassault.
> It is pertinent to quote here that officials have said this difference of cost as razor thin.
> But guidelines for procurement clearly indicate that one cannot go to any other bidder other than L-1 even for negotiations. So theoretically even if EFT brings down its cost to that of Dassault's offer or even lower, you cannot place an order on them. The process requires Re-Tendering.
> But in all i guess it isn't correct to speculate that cost is the factor behind delay of deal, the reasons as DM states are Dassault's hesitance from taking guarantee of HAL's part of deal and since this was a part of original tender, the condition cannot be waived off. The logic is if t so happens, theoretically it would've been possible to procure the items at lower cost from L-2 bidder as rules fo tender has changed. this is called Post Facto changes and aren't allowed without very solid justifications. I don't think DM or PM would take a chance here.
> I'll also narrate a relevant situation, i once heard at a training seminar. This was on Public procurement system and faculty was ex GM of East Central Railways. One person from a PSU asked what should be done in case there are two L-1 bidders (a scenario similar to what we might be having here with Dassault and Rafale's offer being very very close). to which it was replied that under such a scenario, the buyer can call both party's for negotiation by disclosing the initial and final price bid of other. This way laws of natural justice isn't violated.



I'm aware of government rules regarding L1. What I asked was that L1 here is saying the quoted price is not its actual price & will need more. Assuming that the requested increase makes it costlier than L2, it brings into question whether it is actually the true L1 and how that should be determined._( I did make it clear I was indulging in speculation)_ CAG would not have looked at any price increase by L1 that takes it past L2 with much favour. My question was a hypothetical one & does not apply to normal tenders because L1 does not usually change its price.. Here L1 is trying to do it and whether that should be looked at as a reason for closing the tender itself & blacklisting L1 or whether a re-look was possible at who was L1 in view of the new increases sought. Allowing L1 to increase price here would bring to question the very basis of selection of L1.


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## anant_s

Bang Galore said:


> I'm aware of government rules regarding L1. What I asked was that L1 here is saying the quoted price is not its actual price & will need more. Assuming that the requested increase makes it costlier than L2, it brings into question whether it is actually the true L1 and how that should be determined._( I did make it clear I was indulging in speculation)_ CAG would not have looked at any price increase by L1 that takes it past L2 with much favour. My question was a hypothetical one & does not apply to normal tenders because L1 does not usually change its price.. Here L1 is trying to do it and whether that should be looked at as a reason for closing the tender itself & blacklisting L1 or whether a re-look was possible at who was L1 in view of the new increases sought. Allowing L1 to increase price here would bring to question the very basis of selection of L1.



Well i guess we must look into two things as far as escalation is concerned.
1. Since the price bid are atleast 3 years old now, what was the price validity as per the original offer? We must consider that all bids contain a validity period and this cannot be indefinite period of time. So did Dassault (or EADS) mention that, i'm sure they did. All government procedures allow escalation for running contracts based on several indices but in this case since no purchase order is issued, it would not be realistic to assume that Dassault (or any other bidder) would maintain the prices quoted long time back. In this scenario, was there a dynamic component of cost built into the contract that allows purchaser to calculate cost at a later point of time (beyond validity period) and if so what is the current cost of both Rafale and EFT?
2. We have not accounted for change in Foreign exchange fluctuation. Now to supplier it might not make difference but to us atleast the projected cost would've definitely revised. Upto what limit is this variation allowed.
Finally on your question of L-1 bidder increasing the price. I put forward an scenario (which again is hypothetical). Suppose EADS was called for negotiations and it too revises its price quoting delay and expiry of its price validity, it won't be possible to place an order on him as it again will throw a different set of values changing the position of bidders. Thus it may become a never ending cycle.
I therefore feel that government might not have any other option but to strike out a deal with Dassault by convincing it to accept all terms and conditions of original tender or scrap the whole process and start afresh. I also doubt any chance of black-listing Dassault as it may sour relations with France. Guess it is high time French government intervenes and settle the issue (that would be last ditch effort to save the deal).


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## Didact

anant_s said:


> Well i guess we must look into two things as far as escalation is concerned.
> 1. Since the price bid are atleast 3 years old now, what was the price validity as per the original offer? We must consider that all bids contain a validity period and this cannot be indefinite period of time. So did Dassault (or EADS) mention that, i'm sure they did. All government procedures allow escalation for running contracts based on several indices but in this case since no purchase order is issued, it would not be realistic to assume that Dassault (or any other bidder) would maintain the prices quoted long time back. In this scenario, was there a dynamic component of cost built into the contract that allows purchaser to calculate cost at a later point of time (beyond validity period) and if so what is the current cost of both Rafale and EFT?
> 2. We have not accounted for change in Foreign exchange fluctuation. Now to supplier it might not make difference but to us atleast the projected cost would've definitely revised. Upto what limit is this variation allowed.
> Finally on your question of L-1 bidder increasing the price. I put forward an scenario (which again is hypothetical). Suppose EADS was called for negotiations and it too revises its price quoting delay and expiry of its price validity, it won't be possible to place an order on him as it again will throw a different set of values changing the position of bidders. Thus it may become a never ending cycle.
> I therefore feel that government might not have any other option but to strike out a deal with Dassault by convincing it to accept all terms and conditions of original tender or scrap the whole process and start afresh. I also doubt any chance of black-listing Dassault as it may sour relations with France. Guess it is high time French government intervenes and settle the issue (that would be last ditch effort to save the deal).



The government(s) have repeatedly asked the competitors to extend the validity of their bids, first in 2009, then in 2012. If the bids were to expire, I believe the rules do not allow the competitors to re-enter a new bid. So, the bid must stand.


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## halloweene

PARIKRAMA said:


> @halloweene
> Are they still so tight lipped about any new breakthrough? Your sources are also fully silent?


Desperately silent. Even at vice president level.


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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> .what if in the wake of the supposed price increases of Rafale the MoD determines that Rafale is not actually L1 & EF is L1? Most tenders don't have this complication -L1 remains lowest, this one is different & does allow us to speculate?_(only) _



Well the price increase is largly speculation by the media, Parrikar and several other officials constantly stated that the issue is Dassaults deviation of the RFP in terms of workshare and liability:

21.1.2013 - R K Mathur, Secretary Department of Defence Production:


> Asked about the role of the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in the multi-billion dollar deal on procuring the 126 fighter jets, *Mathur said HAL’s role as the main integrator of the platforms was spelt out in the original request for proposal*.
> “The role of HAL is already defined in the original tender for medium multi-role combat aircraft project. It says that the main body, aero-engines, air frame and the integration shall be done by them,” Mathur said.




6.2.2013 - former Defence Minister Antony:


> *Mr. Antony clarified that the criteria in the request for proposal for the MMRCAs were final and non-negotiable*, setting at rest speculation that their licensed production may be curtailed or taken out of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.




8.2.2013 - former IAF Chief Browne:


> the air chief in response to a question that, "The contract between Dassault and Reliance does not bother us, *as per the RfP production has to be carried out in India jointly with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited*."




21.12.2014 Joint Secretary and Acquisition Manager (Air) Rajeev Verma:


> *...has made it clear that till the French side agrees to ministry’s demand, which was specified in the original tender, there will be no progress on the matter*. During recent meetings of the negotiations committee, Verma has been virtually hostile towards the deal, say sources.




20.1.2015 Defence Minister Parrikar:


> ...Asked about the long stuck deal for buying medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA),the minister, in an interview to Headlines Today, said: "*Ultimately, it has to fit the RFP... if it does not fit the RFP, nothing can be done.*"



Not to mention that the NDA after 8 month in power and 2 different Defence Ministers, should be aware of the costs, but they continued the tender process and the negotiations with Dassault, which indicates no big changes in the perception of L1.



anant_s said:


> So theoretically even if EFT brings down its cost to that of Dassault's offer or even lower, you cannot place an order on them. The process requires Re-Tendering.



Not necessarily, since the ongoing problem with Dassault is the deviation of the rules and requirements of the tender, the MoD could had rejected their bid and then automatically go to the L2. We have seen that in the consultancy tender for N-LCA too, where LM was selected as L1, but wasn't able to comply to the rules and IN went with the L2.
So if the bid for the EF would be lower now, the NDA government had it fairly easy to reject Rafale thanks to Dassault itself, but that didn't happened.


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## anant_s

halloweene said:


> Desperately silent. Even at vice president level.


Shocking really! don't think this deal is something french government would let go easily.


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## sancho

anant_s said:


> Shocking really! don't think this deal is something french government would let go easily.



French government doesn't that's why the government officials are coming to India so often, the problem is Dassault.

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## ptltejas

only parikar decide such; After yrs.


sancho said:


> French government doesn't that's why the government officials are coming to India so often, the problem is Dassault.



In Case of the Mirag too it was happen, Dassault is always interested to get more cost than decided, dubai or some arab nation had also filed suit in france against them, and India paid more price for weapons eventhough the contract of miraj was with the condition to sale weapons.


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## sancho

ptltejas said:


> India paid more price for weapons eventhough the contract of miraj was with the condition to sale weapons.



Weapon deals are always seperate deals, that's why we negotiate with MBDA about MICAs for Mirage upgrade, Asraam for Jaguar upgrade, MICA, METEOR and Scalp for Rafale.

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## PARIKRAMA

@halloweene Thanks a ton.. was hoping to get some inside snippet but guess the silence is golden here. But hows the mood in Dassault Camp? Other than Egypt or Qatar talks i mean specifically about Indian MMRCA? Do you see nervousness or you feel business as usual and non botheration?

I am asking bcz body language at times typically portray what people dont speak...


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## anant_s

sancho said:


> French government doesn't that's why the government officials are coming to India so often, the problem is Dassault.


Yes sir and that is what is shocking. usually it is the other way round with Business representatives asking government to put its weight behind international deals, Dassault doesn't seem to be showing any desperation. & considering Dassault has had a very long association with IAF, the casualness (if i may use the word), seems even more baffling.


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## sancho

anant_s said:


> Yes sir and that is what is shocking. usually it is the other way round with Business representatives asking government to put its weight behind international deals,* Dassault doesn't seem to be showing any desperation*. & considering Dassault has had a very long association with IAF, the casualness (if i may use the word), seems even more baffling.



They don't have to, which is partially based on their success on the civil aviation market, besides the other fields of Dassault, but also because the French government made itself too dependent on Dassault. They have no alternative to Rafale and had to take whatever Dassault does. For the government and the forces, the lack of exports is bad, because it increases to costs for them, while limiting the upgrades which otherwise could be funded externally. Same goes for the sub contractors of the French industry, that suffer from the lack of exports. Look at Sagem that can't really export MICA or AASM and is soley dependent on sales in relation to Mirage 2000 or Rafale. The fact that Dassault has allowed customers like the UAE or India to integrate other PGMs, might even kill the AASM export potential, it's upgrade potential is already hit deeply. 
So when Dassault is in a healthy situation and has fixed orders of the French forces, why should they care about others? Sad, but a credible problem for our deal and for the Rafale as a fighter.


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## anant_s

sancho said:


> They don't have to, which is partially based on their success on the civil aviation market, besides the other fields of Dassault, but also because the French government made itself too dependent on Dassault. They have no alternative to Rafale and had to take whatever Dassault does. For the government and the forces, the lack of exports is bad, because it increases to costs for them, while limiting the upgrades which otherwise could be funded externally. Same goes for the sub contractors of the French industry, that suffer from the lack of exports. Look at Sagem that can't really export MICA or AASM and is soley dependent on sales in relation to Mirage 2000 or Rafale. The fact that Dassault has allowed customers like the UAE or India to integrate other PGMs, might even kill the AASM export potential, it's upgrade potential is already hit deeply.
> So when Dassault is in a healthy situation and has fixed orders of the French forces, why should they care about others? Sad, but a credible problem for our deal and for the Rafale as a fighter.



That doesn't sound very good either. Dassault may be having a monopoly in France, but it must remember it is in negotiations on an international contract and any fallout is going to affect prospects elsewhere too. If some earlier reports are to be believed, existing lines and orders will support Rafale program till 2023 with 11 per year delivery. International orders are going to provide revenues for not just this program but also for any future French Gen V fighter program. But with the kind of scenario u've mentioned, it looks like Dassault is in as much hurry as someone is on a Sunday afternoon grocery shopping.

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## DrSomnath999

*"Dassault will not take overall responsibility for the [MMRCA] contract in India" (Collet-Billon [head] of DGA [at a press conference today*

WTF does that mean is the question of the month for everyone including me & OLYBRIUS that need to be answered 

perhaps MMRCA deal is heading to scrapyard 


*CHEERS*

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## Prajapati

DrSomnath999 said:


> *"Dassault will not take overall responsibility for the [MMRCA] contract in India" (Collet-Billon [head] of DGA [at a press conference today*
> 
> WTF does that mean is the question of the month for everyone including me & OLYBRIUS that need to be answered
> 
> perhaps MMRCA deal is heading to scrapyard
> 
> *CHEERS*



There was Never a Doubt about where it was heading once BJP came to power. 

For Dasault head to say that publicly indicates its trying to shift blame to India for the deal collapsing. They are now banking on sales in Arab world and possibly South America. I suspect Dassault share value is going to drop by a significant percentage.


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## PARIKRAMA

*Alain Ruello* @AlainRuello · 4h4 hours ago
#Rafale : Dassault ne prendra pas la responsabilité globale du contrat en Inde (Collet-Billon DGA)

Dassault will not take overall responsibility for the contract in India

*Laurent Collet-Billon* is an armaments engineer who holds since 28 July 2008, the function delegate general arming of theFrench armed forces . He has the rank of general engineer of exceptional class armaments (IGACE) 1 , it is a Commander of the Legion of Honour and Officer of the National Order of Merit .

The *Direction générale de l’armement* (DGA), which can be translated with “General Directorate for Armament”, is theFrench Government Defense procurement agency responsible for the program management, development and purchase of weapon systems for the French military.


Other than this tweet no other report.

If its true, then i guess unless india does a dramatic backdown, we can french kiss Rafale Good bye.

It would be really sad... But i do wish to question GOI regarding inability to convince big companies like Dassault to have faith and confidence over HAL's ability. All in all if the deal does break down, then its gonna be a great shame. A good platform we missed especially bcz Rafale program has potentially Two major upgrades left at least beyond F3R also. So evolution point of view, we could have got a good jet.

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## Prajapati

The Cat is out of the Bag


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## halloweene

PARIKRAMA said:


> @halloweene Thanks a ton.. was hoping to get some inside snippet but guess the silence is golden here. But hows the mood in Dassault Camp? Other than Egypt or Qatar talks i mean specifically about Indian MMRCA? Do you see nervousness or you feel business as usual and non botheration?
> 
> I am asking bcz body language at times typically portray what people dont speak...


Mood id at smile.


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> *"Dassault will not take overall responsibility for the [MMRCA] contract in India" (Collet-Billon [head] of DGA [at a press conference today*
> 
> WTF does that mean is the question of the month for everyone including me & OLYBRIUS that need to be answered
> 
> perhaps MMRCA deal is heading to scrapyard
> 
> 
> *CHEERS*



Unless there is a specific context, the statement is pretty clear isn't it?. Dassault doesn't take responsibility => doesn't comply to RFP => Rafale get rejected from the tender. 

@halloweene 

Any comment on that?


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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> Mood id at smile.


@halloweene your take on that tweet ^^ same old same old? This implies nothing has changed and the Defence Minister of India has said that unless Dassualt sticks to the RFP the deal will be scrapped. Not looking good at the moment for the Rafale and India


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> @halloweene your take on that tweet ^^ same old same old? This implies nothing has changed and the Defence Minister of India has said that unless Dassualt sticks to the RFP the deal will be scrapped. Not looking good at the moment for the Rafale and India



Yes the silent since since early jan didn't sounded that good and now such a pretty clear statement makes it even worse. I just read what Olybrius said, but that doesn't really makes sense. If the DGA takes over responsibility, why shouldn't he just stated that? Same case about Indian MoD / HAL changing it's stand, if that would be the case he would had stated something positive and not this right? Anything, like we made a breakthrough..., or there is movement on the Indian side but not this.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Yes the silent since since early jan didn't sounded that good and now such a pretty clear statement makes it even worse. I just read what Olybrius said, but that doesn't really makes sense. If the DGA takes over responsibility, why shouldn't he just stated that? Same case about Indian MoD / HAL changing it's stand, if that would be the case he would had stated something positive and not this right? Anything, like we made a breakthrough..., or there is movement on the Indian side but not this.


Yeah the two alternate scenarios Olybrius stated didn't really fit into what the MoD/DM of India has said in the past. It seems like the exact same roadblock and no solutions have been found.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Yeah the two alternate scenarios Olybrius stated didn't really fit into what the MoD/DM of India has said in the past. It seems like the exact same roadblock and no solutions have been found.



The issue is pretty much the same since 2012 / 13, it just shifted a bit from workshare to liability, but as shown the Indian side remained steady:

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 15

And when the DM once again states it in January that he doesn't move away from these requirements, what should change his mind now?
Sound more like, Dassault has made up their mind and gives the ball back and the MoD is now left with the final decision.



> *French MoD Backs Dassault's Position on Indian Rafale*
> 
> After months of watching Dassault Aviation being brow-beaten in the Indian press, French arms procurement agency DGA defended its contractor, asserting that a 2012 agreement to provide Rafale fighter jets to New Delhi never committed the company to guarantee aircraft manufactured in India.
> 
> “Dassault will not be responsible for the whole contract. It is a co-management setup,” says French defense procurement chief Laurent Collet-Billon, who was clear that France will not assume full liability for the HAL-produced aircraft. “It cannot be a problem, because it was not in the request for proposals (RFP).”
> 
> Speaking to reporters during an annual media address Feb. 9 in Paris, France's arms procurement chief said the €10.2-billion ($12 billion) agreement – which has been under negotiation for more than three years – calls for the first 18 of 126 Rafale jets to be built in France. After that, India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would take over production of the remaining 108 aircraft.
> 
> However, Dassault's responsibility for the latter has been the subject of heated negotiations between New Delhi and Paris in recent months.
> 
> “A lot of progress has been made since 2012,” says Collet-Billon, adding that as negotiations enter a fourth year, he wants to believe they will give way to a contract for the 126 fighters plus 63 options.
> 
> But Collet-Billon said talks with the Indian government have become bogged down over questions of production of the fighters on Indian soil.
> 
> "India has its own pace," he said of New Delhi officials. "It’s not useful to put pressure on the client. We have to live with our differences."
> 
> In the meantime, he says rival fighter suppliers pose no serious threat to the Rafale bid. After two failed attempts to export the French fighter – South Korea in 2002 and Brazil in late 2013 – the DGA has learned to be careful.
> 
> Collet-Billon says talks are more advanced in Egypt, where France could sell up to 24 Rafale fighters, a FREMM frigate and a number of armaments.
> 
> The first of these aircraft could be delivered in 2018, although a very impatient Egypt would want “a handful” very soon, which could be delivered in 2015, according to DGA officials.
> 
> These few aircraft would relieve the burden of the French government, which is on the hook to fund 11 Rafale jets per year to keep Dassault's production line viable.
> 
> To that end, France has planned to order 11 Rafale in 2015, but just four in 2016, assuming export sales will ultimately materialize.
> 
> Export is “crucial” to maintaining the current spending scheme of €31.4 billion per year on defense, Collet-Billon said.
> 
> “Problems will occur this year if we don't export Rafale aircraft," he said.



French MoD Backs Dassault's Position on Indian Rafale | Ares


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> The issue is pretty much the same since 2012 / 13, it just shifted a bit from workshare to liability, but as shown the Indian side remained steady:
> 
> Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 15
> 
> And when the DM once again states it in January that he doesn't move away from these requirements, what should change his mind now?
> Sound more like, Dassault has made up their mind and gives the ball back and the MoD is now left with the final decision.


Sadly I am inclined to agree with you and given what the DM has stated and the government being what it is, this playing "hardball" with them is only going to lead to one outcome- ripping up the entire procurement. Then the really hard questions will have to be asked, namely- now what? The MKI is not an option, the EFT isn't either (forget that L2 bidders can't get back into the race but do we really think the MoD/IAF are going to go in for ANOTHER 3+ years of negotiations with another firm and then have to wait 3 MORE years on top of that for deliveries?), the MKI with its enormous operational costs and low availability (60-65%) isn't really an alternative either (no matter what the DM wants to say) neither is the LCA. I would say throw the $15-16 Billion at the AMCA on an accelerated design path but even on a fast track basis that bird isn't coming before 2025 and the MiG-21/27 are still in service to day and still falling out of the skies TODAY.

What an utter mess.


sancho said:


> _“Dassault will not be responsible for the whole contract. It is a co-management setup,” says French defense procurement chief Laurent Collet-Billon, *who was clear that France will not assume full liability for the HAL-produced aircraft. “It cannot be a problem, because it was not in the request for proposals (RFP).”*_
> 
> French MoD Backs Dassault's Position on Indian Rafale | Ares


This is what confuses me, the Indian MoD/DM and French MoD have opposite interpretations of the exact same document, this simply shouldn't be possible, it is literally black and white. Both sides can't be right, so who is being mischievous here......


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Sadly I am inclined to agree with you and given what the DM has stated and the government being what it is, this playing "hardball" with them is only going to lead to one outcome- ripping up the entire procurement. Then the really hard questions will have to be asked, namely- now what? The MKI is not an option, the EFT isn't either



Options are available on our side, not like on Dassaults side, but apart of the EF none of them gets us the industrial advantages and as I told you before, it's still the fastest option available, just a matter of how the order will be made.
But it's a huge disappointment, especially after the last 3 years.



Abingdonboy said:


> This is what confuses me, the Indian MoD/DM and French MoD have opposite interpretations of the exact same document, this simply shouldn't be possible, it is literally black and white. Both sides can't be right, so who is being mischievous here......



Actually, this is the first official French government statement about it and as shows earlier the clauses were part of the DPP2006 which is the base of the RFP, so how should that not be in the RFP?

Maybe the EF invitation to Aero India was a sign.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Options are available on our side, not like on Dassaults side, but apart of the EF none of them gets us the industrial advantages and as I told you before, it's still the fastest option available, just a matter of how the order will be made.
> But it's a huge disappointment, especially after the last 3 years.


There are options but none of them will be speedy nor address the IAF's slow (to speed up in the next 2-4 years) SQD strength decline (we can argue that the SQD strength is an arbitrary and rather ignorant way of judging the IAF's straight but numbers count for something) for at least 5-6 years. I'm sorry sir but I just don't see the GoI/MoD buffoons taking any such pragmatic approach as you have prescribed in the past for faster acquisition. IF they choose to look at the EFT buckle yourself in for another 3+ years of misery but I'm not convinced the EFT will even be looked at if/when the Rafale talks collapse. 




sancho said:


> Actually, this is the first official French government statement about it and as shows earlier the clauses were part of the DPP2006 which is the base of the RFP, so how should that not be in the RFP?


Well it seems odd the French MoD (who must have some very fine legal minds) can't read a rather simple document and infer the correct information from it. 



sancho said:


> Maybe the EF invitation to Aero India was a sign.



I've looked into this, the EFT consortium paid for this privilege (quite a lot I'm guessing) and there is nothing we can really read into it. It's just like how after being kicked out of the MMRCA deal SAAB and the EFT consortium stepped up their advertisements in Delhi for their respective products.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> There are options but none of them will be speedy nor address the IAF's slow (to speed up in the next 2-4 years) SQD strength decline (we can argue that the SQD strength is an arbitrary and rather ignorant way of judging the IAF's straight but numbers count for something) for at least 5-6 years.



Given that we would get only 1 Rafale squad from France and hardly 1 to 2 on the production line in India till 2020, I don't see an issue to add the same number of fighters

Option 1 - EF T3A in government to government deals, 1, 2 or even 3 squads directly from the production lines in Europe, available within the next 3 years, no issue. What takes more time is the negotiation of the industry, but even for Rafale, reportedly more than half of the negotiations were done till late 2012 till Dassault came up with the workshare issue. And if we can fix things and start production by 2018 in India, at least 1 squad T3B's could be produced at HAL till 2020 too.

Option 2 - Upgraded MKIs directly from Irkut and some added to the HAL production line, at least 3 squads available till the end of 2020.

Option 3 - Early Pak Fa from Sukhois production line, which reportedly will produce 55 of them for Russia till 2020, at least 1 squad surely could be added for us too.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Given that we would get only 1 Rafale squad from France and hardly 1 to 2 on the production line in India till 2020, I don't see an issue to add the same number of fighters
> 
> Option 1 - EF T3A in government to government deals, 1, 2 or even 3 squads directly from the production lines in Europe, available within the next 3 years, no issue. What takes more time is the negotiation of the industry, but even for Rafale, reportedly more than half of the negotiations were done till late 2012 till Dassault came up with the workshare issue. And if we can fix things and start production by 2018 in India, at least 1 squad T3B's could be produced at HAL till 2020 too.
> 
> Option 2 - Upgraded MKIs directly from Irkut and some added to the HAL production line, at least 3 squads available till the end of 2020.
> 
> Option 3 - Early Pak Fa from Sukhois production line, which reportedly will produce 55 of them for Russia till 2020, at least 1 squad surely could be added for us too.


Sorry sir but none of these options will be taken, when is the last time something as pragmatic as this was done when it came to defence? IF the Rafale is scrapped (I pray to God it is not) here's what will happen- a few more SQDs of Super MKIs from HAL and the MoD will state the LCA Mk.2 is a viable alternative when combined with additional MKIs. We can rule out the PAK FA and EFT right now that is for certain.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Sorry sir but none of these options will be taken, when is the last time something as pragmatic as this was done when it came to defence? IF the Rafale is scrapped (I pray to God it is not) here's what will happen- *a few more SQDs of Super MKIs from HAL* and the MoD will state the LCA Mk.2 is a viable alternative when combined with additional MKIs. We can rule out the PAK FA and EFT right now that is for certain.



Since Parrikar recently stated that he wants FGFA earlier, he can't add more MKIs to HAL's line since the additional 42 will keep the line busy till 2019. But I agree that pragmatism is not the strong side of MoD, no matter under which government.



Abingdonboy said:


> Well it seems odd the French MoD (who must have some very fine legal minds) can't read a rather simple document and infer the correct information from it.



See my reply to Olybrius, it's hard to deny the DPP unless someone in the MoD made a huge mistake in the RFP.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Since Parrikar recently stated that he wants FGFA earlier, he can't add more MKIs to HAL's line since the additional 42 will keep the line busy till 2019. But I agree that pragmatism is not the strong side of MoD, no matter under which government.


Yes the only issue with what I forecast was the line converting to FGFAs by 2020 so perhaps they will go directly to Irkut but this would be in direct contradiction to the "Make in India" policy the GoI is trying hard to push and I don't think the DM/PM would be too inclined to cancel a legitimate Make in India deal (Rafale) for a Make in Russia deal, that would be pretty counterproductive to them I would have thought. Perhaps they simply beef up production and produce more MKIs in HAL's Naisk plant.




sancho said:


> See my reply to Olybrius, it's hard to deny the DPP unless someone in the MoD made a huge mistake in the RFP.



But what bothers me is Dassualt is a multi Billion dollar firm and the French MoD are no idiots so how can they with some fine legal minds come to an entirely different conclusion regarding the liability/RFP obligations than the MoD? This is truly baffling.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Perhaps they simply beef up production and produce more MKIs in HAL's Naisk plant.


Doubtful that that's possible, since the line is running out, so they will slow down now from the peak production.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Doubtful that that's possible, since the line is running out, so they will slow down now from the peak production.


Like I said sir- an utter mess! India is literally between the devil and the deep blue sea except their are multiple devils (MiGs being retired, Naisk plant switching over to the FGFA) and multiple seas (Talks with EFT consortium would take years, LCA is not an adequate substitute for the Rafale neither is the MKI).

Some truly out of the box thinking is needed if the Rafale deals collapse, again for the love of God don't let them, and this is not in anyway the strong point of the MoD so we ca expect yet more headache to come.....


Getting the Rafale was just too simple a solution wasn't it? India loves to do things the hard way


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## Bang Galore

Abingdonboy said:


> Well it seems odd the French MoD (who must have some very fine legal minds) can't read a rather simple document and infer the correct information from it.



I'm sure they can read it alright but to openly say you are not willing to adhere to the RFP will destroy credibility, far better to say that their understanding of the RFP was different from the MoD's.

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## Abingdonboy

Bang Galore said:


> I'm sure they can read it alright but to openly say you are not willing to adhere to the RFP will destroy credibility, far better to say that their understanding of the RFP was different from the MoD's.


They are saying the liability was not part of the RFP so they are putting themselves in an indefensible position.


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## Bang Galore

Abingdonboy said:


> Getting the Rafale was just too simple a solution wasn't it? India loves to do things the hard way


*
You bet !. *I mean who in the right mind would lump together the Mig 35, Gripen & the F-16 with the twin engined planes & yet not allow for their biggest advantage of cost to be a factor? It would have made a lot more sense to have had a target price & ask all contenders to put in their best offers for that value rather than end up selecting between the 2 costliest aircraft's on the grounds that they are the most capable. No $hit, at those prices, they better be good. MoD & IAF must also be held equally responsible for this mess, ending up with an L1 who may or may not be the L1 and who now simply does not agree to follow the rules of the contract. Forget Dassault, there should be heads rolling in the MoD & some IAF guys must pay the price too. The IAF's & the MoD's lunacy has brought us to this stage; if they didn't learn from the M2k upgrade costing, they are the ones who should be blamed for it. Dassault is not our problem, they can be replaced even if at a substantial cost but the jokers on our side who played out this charade are still comfortably sitting in their chairs.

We should have looked at the F-16 & gripen and worked out the most cost effective solution there. Any addition of the heavier platforms should have been separate from this.



Abingdonboy said:


> They are saying the liability was not part of the RFP so they are putting themselves in an indefensible position.



To you and me, yes but that's not the story they will be telling.

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## anant_s

Abingdonboy said:


> This implies nothing has changed and the Defence Minister of India has said that unless Dassualt sticks to the RFP the deal will be scrapped.



& i'm not sure how long this government is going to wait. i won't be surprised if it has already started to send some feelers to EADS or UAC as a backup plan.


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## topgun047

Bang Galore said:


> *You bet !. *I mean who in the right mind would lump together the Mig 35, Gripen & the F-16 with the twin engined planes & yet not allow for their biggest advantage of cost to be a factor? It would have made a lot more sense to have had a target price & ask all contenders to put in their best offers for that value rather than end up selecting between the 2 costliest aircraft's on the grounds that they are the most capable. No $hit, at those prices, they better be good. MoD & IAF must also be held equally responsible for this mess, ending up with an L1 who may or may not be the L1 and who now simply does not agree to follow the rules of the contract. Forget Dassault, there should be heads rolling in the MoD & some IAF guys must pay the price too. The IAF's & the MoD's lunacy has brought us to this stage; if they didn't learn from the M2k upgrade costing, they are the ones who should be blamed for it. Dassault is not our problem, they can be replaced even if at a substantial cost but the jokers on our side who played out this charade are still comfortably sitting in their chairs.
> 
> We should have looked at the F-16 & gripen and worked out the most cost effective solution there. Any addition of the heavier platforms should have been separate from this.
> 
> 
> 
> To you and me, yes but that's not the story they will be telling.




Its an open secret that MMRCA tender was cooked up from the start to ensure Rafale becomes the winner.
The requirements were laid down in such a way that Rafale meets them better than all other contenders.


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## PARIKRAMA

The question to ponder is
A) Who is/are responsible for time equivalent to a decade lost?
B) Why we had to get into this mess?
C) What did we do to address our domestic programs/setups issues (Like LCA MK1 and Mk2 /AMCA etc) to ensure such kind of a situation is not repeated again?
D) What will be our Plan B or Plan C? A credible Plan for Hi-Med-Lo equation not about saying lets order MKI and make it Super Upgrade or LCA MK2 will do the job (yes may be post 2025) or AMCA (Again 2025+). A proper justifiable and time bound project
E) Who is responsible till we keep flying tough fighters like Mig 21s Bisons who are unforgivable types and requires far more intensive concentration then the new fighters? What about our real squadron strength? (No pls talk 45 squadrons its utter rubbish now)
F) Why our programs like LCA MK1, MK2, naval variant, AMCA proposed, or FGFA (not even contract finalised or signed) in such a state of affairs? What steps being undertaken to priortise?

Its time, we drop all luggage of our past and make a clean fresh start. We must not get into this kind of mess again and again. It shows the propensity of bad planning and lack of vision on the part of everybody including IAF. We need to make amends and do that asap.

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## raazh

Bang Galore said:


> *You bet !. *I mean who in the right mind would lump together the Mig 35, Gripen & the F-16 with the twin engined planes & yet not allow for their biggest advantage of cost to be a factor? It would have made a lot more sense to have had a target price & ask all contenders to put in their best offers for that value rather than end up selecting between the 2 costliest aircraft's on the grounds that they are the most capable.
> We should have looked at the F-16 & gripen and worked out the most cost effective solution there. Any addition of the heavier platforms should have been separate from this.



This is the point i never understood myself. IAF wants a single engine Mig21 replacement and that too in big numbers. Then why did it not look at single engine options like Gripen and F16. Plus when you already have a Heavy Weight double engine Su30 in numbers which can perform all the roles that may be required and you also control its production, overhaul and up gradation then why are you still looking for another different double engine plane? To top it you have plans for FGFA and AMCA, both being double engines.

If you really have to purchase another plane then It would have made more sense to go for Gripen or F16 and try to utilize its technology in all other local project esp LCA. However the best option would have been to get Saab involved in LCA and quickly develop a cost effective replacement for Mig 21 in numbers.


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## Major Shaitan Singh

Can ground crew look 'cool'? Yes, they can.


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## PARIKRAMA

Why Dassault does not want to take responsibility of HAL produced fighters

As per the initial plans, *the air force was to receive its first aircraft within three years of a contract signature, and all 126 fighters were to be delivered within 11 years*. If Dassault concludes the Rafale contract this year, the air force would receive the first of 18 “fly-away” aircraft in 2018, and the last of 108 aircraft built by HAL in 2026. The state-owned airframer’s track record, however, suggests that it will complete Rafale deliveries only by 2029-2030.

Source: Exceprt from FlightGlobal 

This is the reason as Dassault clearly feels HAL can never adhere to time frame..

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## PARIKRAMA

*French MoD Backs Dassault's Position on Indian Rafale*

After months of watching Dassault Aviation being brow-beaten in the Indian press, French arms procurement agency DGA defended its contractor, asserting that a 2012 agreement to provide Rafale fighter jets to New Delhi never committed the company to guarantee aircraft manufactured in India.

“Dassault will not be responsible for the whole contract. It is a co-management setup,” says French defense procurement chief Laurent Collet-Billon, who was clear that France will not assume full liability for the HAL-produced aircraft. “It cannot be a problem, because it was not in the request for proposals (RFP).”

Speaking to reporters during an annual media address Feb. 9 in Paris, France's arms procurement chief said the €10.2-billion ($12 billion) agreement – which has been under negotiation for more than three years – calls for the first 18 of 126 Rafale jets to be built in France. After that, India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would take over production of the remaining 108 aircraft.

However, Dassault's responsibility for the latter has been the subject of heated negotiations between New Delhi and Paris in recent months.

“A lot of progress has been made since 2012,” says Collet-Billon, adding that as negotiations enter a fourth year, he wants to believe they will give way to a contract for the 126 fighters plus 63 options.

But Collet-Billon said talks with the Indian government have become bogged down over questions of production of the fighters on Indian soil.

"India has its own pace," he said of New Delhi officials. "It’s not useful to put pressure on the client. We have to live with our differences."

In the meantime, he says rival fighter suppliers pose no serious threat to the Rafale bid. After two failed attempts to export the French fighter – South Korea in 2002 and Brazil in late 2013 – the DGA has learned to be careful.

Collet-Billon says talks are more advanced in Egypt, where France could sell up to 24 Rafale fighters, a FREMM frigate and a number of armaments.

The first of these aircraft could be delivered in 2018, although a very impatient Egypt would want “a handful” very soon, which could be delivered in 2015, according to DGA officials.

These few aircraft would relieve the burden of the French government, which is on the hook to fund 11 Rafale jets per year to keep Dassault's production line viable.

To that end, France has planned to order 11 Rafale in 2015, but just four in 2016, assuming export sales will ultimately materialize.

Export is “crucial” to maintaining the current spending scheme of €31.4 billion per year on defense, Collet-Billon said.

“Problems will occur this year if we don't export Rafale aircraft," he said.

French MoD Backs Dassault's Position on Indian Rafale | Ares

@sancho @Abingdonboy @halloweene @DrSomnath999

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## Prajapati

PARIKRAMA said:


> Why Dassault does not want to take responsibility of HAL produced fighters
> 
> As per the initial plans, *the air force was to receive its first aircraft within three years of a contract signature, and all 126 fighters were to be delivered within 11 years*. If Dassault concludes the Rafale contract this year, the air force would receive the first of 18 “fly-away” aircraft in 2018, and the last of 108 aircraft built by HAL in 2026. The state-owned airframer’s track record, however, sggests that it will complete Rafale deliveries only by 2029-2030.
> 
> Source: Exceprt from FlightGlobal
> 
> This is the reason as Dassault clearly feels HAL can never adhere to time frame..



I hope you do not get too carried away by Paid media.

Dassault Advertises in FlightGlobal and that is how they make a profit and pay their employees. Kindly take such "reports" with a pinch of salt. They are nothing but covert PR machinery.

Dassault should leave HAL to its own affair and they should not pretend to read into HAL's future and attempt to predict a delay 15 years into the FUTURE 

This very absurd "prediction/analysis" by Dassault itself indicates malafide intent.

Imagine this scenario, Dassault delays providing technical documentations, or parts for Rafale being built in HAL and deliberately introduces a delay. HAL will unfortunately bear the "blame" for the delay.

India has enough experience with the French to know that this is exactly how the french behave, remember Scorpene submarine ? Dassault is asked to take responsibility for the parts they deliver and the stuff they have promised to do. HAL is WISE not to trust Dassault.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Getting the Rafale was just too simple a solution wasn't it? India loves to do things the hard way



You are blaming the wrong side buddy, India did everything right unless there is a huge difference between the DPP and the RFP. It's Dassault that you have to blame, for not taking a strategic chance not only on the Indian defence market, but also for Rafale itself! India could had countributed so much for the further development of the Rafale. 
The entire issue is just a shame caused by Dassault since late 2012, for their egoistic goals and that's what I don't get. How can a company waste such a huge chance for silly workshare issues and control over the licence production. What they get in return would give them multiple times a return of any damages they might have to pay, *IF THEY MAKE MISTAKES DURING THE LICENCE PRODUCTION!*

No matter what the decision now is, the years that were wasted now for such non issues is simply not reasonable in any way.



topgun047 said:


> Its an open secret that MMRCA tender was cooked up from the start to ensure Rafale becomes the winner.
> The requirements were laid down in such a way that Rafale meets them better than all other contenders.



Sorry but that's nonsense! M-MRCA took the same technical requirements of the earlier MRCA, except for the AESA radar and the Rafale was not part of the MRCA tender unlike the Mig, the Gripen or the F16.


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## halloweene

Dassault takes three years to build Rafale, but an indianized Rafale could be built in 18 months (after that 18 months you can't change the technical definition).
I am not sure DCNS is the only one to be blamed for scorpene delays. Magazon docks have their share... Didn't hear any complaint from Brazil.


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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> Why Dassault does not want to take responsibility of HAL produced fighters...
> 
> ...This is the reason as Dassault clearly feels HAL can never adhere to time frame..



Nope, because Dassault wants HAL to do it like Dassault says and don't accept anything else, but that's not up to them to decide!


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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> Dassault takes three years to build Rafale, but an indianized Rafale could be built in 18 months (after that 18 months you can't change the technical definition).
> I am not sure DCNS is the only one to be blamed for scorpene delays. Magazon docks have their share... Didn't hear any complaint from Brazil.


You're right about it not all being DCNS's fault, the Indian side did have role to play in the delays for sure.

But sir please stick to the Rafale in India, it seems this deal is circling the drain, Dassualt hasn't backed down from its position, now the French MoD is backing it and the Indian side isn't going to back down from its position either and objectively speaking they seem to be on the right side considering the RFP that went out. Dassualt is stating its intention not to stick to the RFP and thus will be disqualified from the MMRCA procurement, game over?


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Dassault takes three years to build Rafale, but an indianized Rafale could be built in 18 months (after that 18 months you can't change the technical definition).
> *I am not sure DCNS is the only one to be blamed for scorpene delays*. Magazon docks have their share... Didn't hear any complaint from Brazil.



Definitely not, because the lack of know how in licence production of subs in MDL was part of the problem too. That however is not the case with HAL. HAL is the most experienced Indian partner Dassault can find, HAL has shown good performance in MKI and Hawk licence productions, when credibly supported by the OEM and strangely neither Thales nor Snecma are complaining about HAL, although both of them are working with them for implementing systems, which once again shows where the problem actually lies and the same problem was the base of complains of the UAE too!


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## Echo_419

halloweene said:


> Dassault takes three years to build Rafale, but an indianized Rafale could be built in 18 months (after that 18 months you can't change the technical definition).
> I am not sure DCNS is the only one to be blamed for scorpene delays. Magazon docks have their share... Didn't hear any complaint from Brazil.



I agree with that the fault was from our side too & let's hope the Rafale deal will work out just fine.Having said that you are responsible for this Deal's delay,even the Arabs (UAE) are complaining about the same thing as we are.


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## Didact

Echo_419 said:


> I agree with that the fault was from our side too & let's hope the Rafale deal will work out just fine.Having said that you are responsible for this Deal's delay,even the Arabs (UAE) are complaining about the same thing as we are.



There's been too much of hardening of positions on both sides recently, and that ever augurs well for any prospective deal. The fact that Manohar Parrikar should choose to go out and publicly suggest non-compliance to the RFP by Dassault is as clear cut a warning as anyone would expect. Conversely, that also means The DM and the MoD are now locked onto following through with the deal as per the original RFP.

Any deviation and the rejuvenated opposition may well tear into the Government, a charge this govenment will be desperate to avoid.

And yeah, a good part of the MoD bureaucracy, including some very senior officials are against this deal, almost everybody is aware of it. And listening to Manhar Parrikar, it's not entirely unfeasible that he doesn't see any significant merit of this deal anymore.


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## Echo_419

Didact said:


> There's been too much of hardening of positions on both sides recently, and that ever augurs well for any prospective deal. The fact that Manohar Parrikar should choose to go out and publicly suggest non-compliance to the RFP by Dassault is as clear cut a warning as anyone would expect. Conversely, that also means The DM and the MoD are now locked onto following through with the deal as per the original RFP.
> 
> Any deviation and the rejuvenated opposition may well tear into the Government, a charge this govenment will be desperate to avoid.
> 
> And yeah, a good part of the MoD bureaucracy, including some very senior officials are against this deal, almost everybody is aware of it. And listening to Manhar Parrikar, it's not entirely unfeasible that he doesn't see any significant merit of this deal anymore.



This deal is highly important if we want to build a strong Air force & a strong Aviation Industry


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## topgun047

sancho said:


> Sorry but that's nonsense! M-MRCA took the same technical requirements of the earlier MRCA, except for the AESA radar and the Rafale was not part of the MRCA tender unlike the Mig, the Gripen or the F16.



No offense but I will take the word of Brahma Chellney over yours any day.


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## sancho

topgun047 said:


> No offense but I will take the word of Brahma Chellney over yours any day.



Who said you have to take my word? Inform yourself and think about it on your own, look up the requirements of the initial MRCA and look how and when Rafale came into the picture, because all this easily counters any favourism for Rafale.


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## topgun047

sancho said:


> Who said you have to take my word? Inform yourself and think about it on your own, look up the requirements of the initial MRCA and look how and when Rafale came into the picture, because all this easily counters any favourism for Rafale.



I am in no mood to educate you.
Do your research or don't.I can't be arsed..
If you are looking to for someone to pass time with you will be disappointed.
I believe I have already I mentioned Brahma Chelleney.
Google would be a good start.


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## Prajapati

halloweene said:


> Dassault takes three years to build Rafale, but an indianized Rafale could be built in 18 months (after that 18 months you can't change the technical definition).
> I am not sure DCNS is the only one to be blamed for scorpene delays. Magazon docks have their share... Didn't hear any complaint from Brazil.



Exactly ..... "Magazon docks have their share" defines the whole French attitude and blame shifting ........ that is why HAL is making sure they are not made suckers like Mazgoan docks and held responsible for "their share". You do realize that the French have pretty low credibility when it comes to keeping promises.



Echo_419 said:


> This deal is highly important if we want to build a strong Air force & a strong Aviation Industry



If we want a strong Air Force and a Strong Aviation Industry, we have to BUILD IT. Not BUY it. 

One word, "Research".


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## Echo_419

Prajapati said:


> Exactly ..... "Magazon docks have their share" defines the whole French attitude and blame shifting ........ that is why HAL is making sure they are not made suckers like Mazgoan docks and held responsible for "their share". You do realize that the French have pretty low credibility when it comes to keeping promises.
> 
> 
> 
> If we want a strong Air Force and a Strong Aviation Industry, we have to BUILD IT. Not BUY it.
> 
> One word, "Research".



By the time we manage to build something close to that every one would be moving on to 6th gn fighters

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## Prajapati

Echo_419 said:


> By the time we manage to build something close to that every one would be moving on to 6th gn fighters



Better to try and fail, and try again and again till we succeed, than never try at all. 

IAF will be forced to go to Plan B, which is Super 30 MKI and LCA. Good news is, this will put massive pressure on the LCA program and the IAF will be forced to partner the program


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## Echo_419

Prajapati said:


> Better to try and fail, and try again and again till we succeed, than never try at all.
> 
> IAF will be forced to go to Plan B, which is Super 30 MKI and LCA. Good news is, this will put massive pressure on the LCA program and the IAF will be forced to partner the program



Let me refer you to @Abingdonboy & @sancho as they can explain you better why we need this deal so bad


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## Prajapati

Echo_419 said:


> Let me refer you to @Abingdonboy & @sancho as they can explain you better why we need this deal so bad


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## Abingdonboy

Prajapati said:


> Better to try and fail, and try again and again till we succeed, than never try at all.
> 
> IAF will be forced to go to Plan B, which is Super 30 MKI and LCA. Good news is, this will put massive pressure on the LCA program and the IAF will be forced to partner the program


Thi is the exact opposite of "good news" unless you are the PLAAF and PAF that is.

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## Prajapati

Abingdonboy said:


> Thi is the exact opposite of "good news" unless you are the PLAAF and PAF that is.



I would rather see 20 Billion $ spent inside India than outside.

Add a 100 more super 30 MKI and Pour 2 billion $ into the LCA program, create and inventory of Su 30 MKI spare parts to increase up time and see how parity builds up again.

There is the PAK-FA, AMCA in the pipeline.

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## Bang Galore

Echo_419 said:


> ........ they can explain you better why we need this deal so bad



Look, the aircraft is undoubtedly good but the deal stinks to the high heavens. If MoD accepted the French position now, they are pretty much bending over & offering up their behinds. Dealing with the French sucks.

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## Abingdonboy

Prajapati said:


> I would rather see 20 Billion $ spent inside India than outside.
> 
> Add a 100 more super 30 MKI and Pour 2 billion $ into the LCA program, create and inventory of Su 30 MKI spare parts to increase up time and see how parity builds up again.
> 
> There is the PAK-FA, AMCA in the pipeline.


Firstly the Rafale deal isn't worth $20 Billion.

Secondly, even if it was 50% of that figure would be ploughed back into the Indian aviation industry (a good thing, no?)

Thirdly, your initial remark "I would rather see $20 Billion $ spent inside India than outside" is entirely undermined by the fact you go on to prescribe MORE Su-30MKIs being built for the IAF, do you think the MKI is Indian? Do you think the amount of resources that would flow back to Russia are any less than those that would flow back to France once production of the Rafale starts in India? By buying more MKIs you are not keeping money in India (not all of it), all you are doing is dumping a MASSIVE burden on the IAF in terms of operational expenditure and with a 60-65% availability rate (the Rafale has closer to 85%) you are comprising the IAF's combat capabilities and India's national security.

I've heard this extra MKI+ LCA alternative theory to the Rafale reiterated many times and haven't entertained it for a second, this solution is not superior in costs or operational capability and would just be a huge kick in the teeth to the IAF who have spent the best part of a decade pushing for the MMRCA.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another day, another contradictory report:


*MMRCA Deal: Dassault Confirming to Indian RFP Conditions*

_French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault is confirming to conditions laid down in the original request for proposals (RFP) in its conduct of negotiations with the contract negotiations committee (CNC) of the Indian MoD over the sale of 126 Rafale fighters.
A senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer in the know of things told Defenseworld.net Delhi correspondent that *negotiations have so far been within the boundaries of the RFP.* The aircraft being discussed to be purchased is what was tested by the IAF and not a later model as reported by various media .The officer who did not wish to be quoted said that a good part of the *negotiations have been completed including a work-share agreement with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.*
Responding to a question, the official explained that the delay in conclusion of the contract was due to “the CNC being sensitised about issues by various external sources, including Dassault’s competitors, and the former seeking clarifications for them”.*A fresh target time frame for the completion of the negotiations has been set for March-April of 2015.* Various reports in the past have noted that Dassault was deviating from the RFP conditions and that the MoD had informed the French company to ‘stick to the RFP’._

From:
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/121...s#.VNssVmiG_iM

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## Stephen Cohen

Thanks for reviving our hopes 

Yesterday's news looked like it is all over


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## Prajapati

Abingdonboy said:


> Firstly the Rafale deal isn't worth $20 Billion.
> 
> Secondly, even if it was 50% of that figure would be ploughed back into the Indian aviation industry (a good thing, no?)
> 
> Thirdly, your initial remark "I would rather see $20 Billion $ spent inside India than outside" is entirely undermined by the fact you go on to prescribe MORE Su-30MKIs being built for the IAF, do you think the MKI is Indian? Do you think the amount of resources that would flow back to Russia are any less than those that would flow back to France once production of the Rafale starts in India? By buying more MKIs you are not keeping money in India (not all of it), all you are doing is dumping a MASSIVE burden on the IAF in terms of operational expenditure and with a 60-65% availability rate (the Rafale has closer to 85%) you are comprising the IAF's combat capabilities and India's national security.
> 
> I've heard this extra MKI+ LCA alternative theory to the Rafale reiterated many times and haven't entertained it for a second, this solution is not superior in costs or operational capability and would just be a huge kick in the teeth to the IAF who have spent the best part of a decade pushing for the MMRCA.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Another day, another contradictory report:
> 
> 
> *MMRCA Deal: Dassault Confirming to Indian RFP Conditions*
> 
> _French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault is confirming to conditions laid down in the original request for proposals (RFP) in its conduct of negotiations with the contract negotiations committee (CNC) of the Indian MoD over the sale of 126 Rafale fighters.
> A senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer in the know of things told Defenseworld.net Delhi correspondent that *negotiations have so far been within the boundaries of the RFP.* The aircraft being discussed to be purchased is what was tested by the IAF and not a later model as reported by various media .The officer who did not wish to be quoted said that a good part of the *negotiations have been completed including a work-share agreement with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.*
> Responding to a question, the official explained that the delay in conclusion of the contract was due to “the CNC being sensitised about issues by various external sources, including Dassault’s competitors, and the former seeking clarifications for them”.*A fresh target time frame for the completion of the negotiations has been set for March-April of 2015.* Various reports in the past have noted that Dassault was deviating from the RFP conditions and that the MoD had informed the French company to ‘stick to the RFP’._
> 
> From:
> http://www.defenseworld.net/news/121...s#.VNssVmiG_iM



Ploughing 100% of the money back into India is a MUCH BETTER deal. No ? 

For the Su 30 MKI India is Force to buy only Alloys for the body and engine, EVERYTHING else is made in India, so yes I can live with that. 

Not to mention its a LOT Cheaper and gives a HUGE BOOST to our own Indigenous development. THAT is Priceless. 

Su 30 MKI availability is Low due to the fact that IAF does not bother stockpiling spare parts. IAF starts doing that, the availability goes up to 80%. That was also indirectly confirmed by Parrikar.

IAF has been pushing for a new toy for ages, its a shame they won't be getting one. Time for them to start streamlining their own operations to improve efficiency and focus on indigenous toys. They don't like it ? Too bad, they better learn to live with it. 

Finally stop posting news article that claim one thing or the other. Do you really thinking Dassault is going to say they are working OUTSIDE the RFP ?  

That is going to be their FINAL statement till the deal is trashed. Then they will blame the GoI. Otherwise their other customers are going to get very jittery. Its business, not a Honesty contest.


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## Taygibay

_"Nope, because Dassault wants HAL to do it like Dassault says and don't accept anything else, but that's not up to them to decide!"_

That has to be the most stupid thing I've read here in a long while …
So a maker, say Mercedes-Benz is asked by a country to build its flagship product, say the SLS or S-class,
for the local wheelbarrow producer, say Yugo, and provide all knowledge to build and design more over time.
But the local govt wants Yugo do be free to do whatever they want on the production line and Mercedes to shut
the flock up if things go awry. Use bike wheels? Yugo's choice! Replace aluminum panels with cardboard? Yugo's choice! Drill holes in the motor blocks? Yugo's choice! And so on but still, of course,sold and potentially exported as a Daimler product with all blame for Benz for any problem encountered …

Just try and ask McDonnell-Douglas or Lockheed to have F-18s and F-35s built under such rules for fun. Seriously, write to them as an Indian taxpayer and ask them about having their birds built that way by HAL because Dassault is unreasonable. I'd like a poster size version of their answering letter on my bathroom wall for congested days. 

Let's reverse that to show it :
Dassault has to do it like HAL wants and accept anything resulting because it's for HAL to decide …
presumably as they know best how to build Rafales?

_With that line of thought, China has already won!_ 

You are a troll star, my poor Sancho! You post for effect, bunching up meaningless words and posts so quantity always drowns quality, sorry to say! So many words, so little substance!

I'm darn pleased this was printed here on PDf; with the hard times and all, our Pakistani brothers and sisters need the laughs.

Good day all, Tay.


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## sancho

Prajapati said:


> *I would rather see 20 Billion $ spent inside India than outside.
> 
> Add a 100 more super 30 MKI *and Pour 2 billion $ into the LCA program, create and inventory of Su 30 MKI spare parts to increase up time and see how parity builds up again.



Which doesn't make any sense!

MKI is a FOREIGN fighter, licence produced at HAL
MMRCA is a FOREIGN fighter, licence produced at HAL

So no matter if we go for MMRCA or not, we have to spend outside, simply by the fact that we have nothing close to the MKI or Rafale in India!
Also, the idea that just investing more money into the LCA program, miraculously will make ADA and DRDO more capable is simply not realistic. It's not the lack of money that is the problem of the LCA develoment, but the lack of know how and experience! That's why we needed to get the Israelis in to help us in the radar development, that's why we asked the French for help on the engine development, or why we asked the US / Germans for help in navalising the fighter. In all these areas we tried it alone and didn't get it done, simply because we are far away from being at an industrial level to do such challenging things alone and no ammount of money would had changed that!

That's even the prime idea behind MMRCA, to add industrial technologies and know how, from experienced foreign partners to our industry and improve them like that. That's why the tender has high ToT and offset requirements and neither LCA, additional MKI's or even Pak Fa's would offer us the same advantages.

So if you only want to add some fighters for IAF, to counter the falling squadron numbers, additional MKIs or Pak Fa's are an alternative to MMRCA, just as the DM said it. But if you want to improve the industry, with state of the art techs and modern production capabilities and that for a wide range of the Indian industry (not only HAL which is producing MKIs, LCAs and will produce FGFA), MMRCA is the only choice we have!



Bang Galore said:


> If MoD accepted the French position now, they are pretty much bending over & offering up their behinds. Dealing with the French sucks.



Very true, no matter how good the Rafale is, the important part of the tender is that we set the rules and are not dependent anymore on what foreign manufacturers or countries are dictating us. And all Indian officials for the last 2 years made it clear, that there is no going back from the RFP, no matter how hard Dassault tries.
The new DM can't do it anyway after his pretty clear statements from December and January, he gave the ball to Dassault and they gave their answer. It's now on the DM to take a proper decision!

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## Prajapati

sancho said:


> Which doesn't make any sense!
> 
> MKI is a FOREIGN fighter, licence produced at HAL
> MMRCA is a FOREIGN fighter, licence produced at HAL



MKI is cheaper and almost 90% of it is built in India. Best case scenario for Rafale is that 50% will be built in India and its will be twice as Expensive. 



> So no matter if we go for MMRCA or not, we have to spend outside, simply by the fact that we have nothing close to the MKI or Rafale in India!



Hence the urgent need to start putting serious money into development. 



> Also, the idea that just investing more money into the LCA program, miraculously will make ADA and DRDO more capable is simply not realistic. It's not the lack of money that is the problem of the LCA develoment, but the lack of know how and experience! That's why we needed to get the Israelis in to help us in the radar development, that's why we asked the French for help on the engine development, or why we asked the US / Germans for help in navalising the fighter. In all these areas we tried it alone and didn't get it done, simply we are far away from being at an industrial level to do such challenging things alone and no ammount of money would had changed that!



That is how it works in the rest of the world. Know how is gained by DOING RESEARCH which COST MONEY. EXPERIENCE is gained by actually doing Development  . ...... both are not Mana from heaven. 

We are NOT required to do everything alone, Knowledge sharing and buying of know know how, setting up now research, joint funding of research are all standard parts of indigenous development. That is how the rest of the worlds does it too. You either buy the technology or you STEAL the technology or your develop the tech on your own. 

Aerospace Industries are set up when someone gives them MONEY to delivery aerospace stuff  we have enough critical mass to do pretty much anything provide money is made available. 



> That's even the prime idea behind MMRCA, to add industrial technologies and know how, from experienced foreign partners to our industry and improve them like that. That's why the tender has high ToT and offset requirements and neither LCA, additional MKI's or even Pak Fa's would offer us the same advantages.



Prime Idea behind MMRCA is to get New toys to the IAF. Secondary idea is to camouflage it as some sort of Know-how transfer to soften the blow. Let us not start believing our own propaganda or IAF spin. 



> So if you only want to add some fighters for IAF, to counter the falling squadron numbers, additional MKIs or Pak Fa's are an alternative to MMRCA, just as the DM said it. But if you want to improve the industry, with state of the art techs and modern production capabilities and that for a wide range of the Indian industry (not only HAL which is producing MKIs, LCAs and will produce FGFA), MMRCA is the only choice we have!



NOPE, its is NOT the ONLY choice we have, Not by a long shot. *Not by any intelligent assessment. * 



> Very true, no matter how good the Rafale is, the important part of the tender is that we set the rules and are not dependent anymore on what foreign manufacturers or countries are dictating us. And all Indian officials for the last 2 years made it clear, that there is no going back from the RFP, no matter how hard Dassault tries.
> The new DM can't do it anyway after his pretty clear statements from December and January, he gave the ball to Dassault and they gave their answer. It's now on the DM to take a proper decision!



The deal is going kaput, ................ because Dassault has no intention of handing over their tech over to us for that price, despite what the RFP says. 

Everything else is just hogwash.


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## Otocal

Prajapati said:


> MKI is cheaper and almost 90% of it is built in India. Best case scenario for Rafale is that 50% will be built in India and its will be twice as Expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> Hence the urgent need to start putting serious money into development.
> 
> 
> 
> That is how it works in the rest of the world. Know how is gained by DOING RESEARCH which COST MONEY. EXPERIENCE is gained by actually doing Development  . ...... both are not Mana from heaven.
> 
> We are NOT required to do everything alone, Knowledge sharing and buying of know know how, setting up now research, joint funding of research are all standard parts of indigenous development. That is how the rest of the worlds does it too. You either buy the technology or you STEAL the technology or your develop the tech on your own.
> 
> Aerospace Industries are set up when someone gives them MONEY to delivery aerospace stuff  we have enough critical mass to do pretty much anything provide money is made available.
> 
> 
> 
> Prime Idea behind MMRCA is to get New toys to the IAF. Secondary idea is to camouflage it as some sort of Know-how transfer to soften the blow. Let us not start believing our own propaganda or IAF spin.
> 
> 
> 
> NOPE, its is NOT the ONLY choice we have, Not by a long shot. *Not by any intelligent assessment. *
> 
> 
> 
> The deal is going kaput, ................ because Dassault has no intention of handing over their tech over to us for that price, despite what the RFP says.
> 
> Everything else is just hogwash.



Su30MKI is Russia's export to India.


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## Echo_419

Bang Galore said:


> Look, the aircraft is undoubtedly good but the deal stinks to the high heavens. If MoD accepted the French position now, they are pretty much bending over & offering up their behinds. Dealing with the French sucks.



The french have met their match & the New MOD will never agree to anything which puts India at a disadvantage



Prajapati said:


> MKI is cheaper and almost 90% of it is built in India. Best case scenario for Rafale is that 50% will be built in India and its will be twice as Expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> Hence the urgent need to start putting serious money into development.
> 
> 
> 
> That is how it works in the rest of the world. Know how is gained by DOING RESEARCH which COST MONEY. EXPERIENCE is gained by actually doing Development  . ...... both are not Mana from heaven.
> 
> We are NOT required to do everything alone, Knowledge sharing and buying of know know how, setting up now research, joint funding of research are all standard parts of indigenous development. That is how the rest of the worlds does it too. You either buy the technology or you STEAL the technology or your develop the tech on your own.
> 
> Aerospace Industries are set up when someone gives them MONEY to delivery aerospace stuff  we have enough critical mass to do pretty much anything provide money is made available.
> 
> 
> 
> Prime Idea behind MMRCA is to get New toys to the IAF. Secondary idea is to camouflage it as some sort of Know-how transfer to soften the blow. Let us not start believing our own propaganda or IAF spin.
> 
> 
> 
> NOPE, its is NOT the ONLY choice we have, Not by a long shot. *Not by any intelligent assessment. *
> 
> 
> 
> The deal is going kaput, ................ because Dassault has no intention of handing over their tech over to us for that price, despite what the RFP says.
> 
> Everything else is just hogwash.



MKI may seem to cost a little less than Rafael at this moment but in the long run factoring in the Maintenance cost,the french plane will cost less,Not to forget MKI is a Air superiority fighter & French one is a Multirole one & most importantly the IAF knows more than you & me and they insist on this deal so it must be the right option.

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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> Very true, no matter how good the Rafale is, the important part of the tender is that we set the rules and are not dependent anymore on what foreign manufacturers or countries are dictating us. And all Indian officials for the last 2 years made it clear, that there is no going back from the RFP, no matter how hard Dassault tries.
> The new DM can't do it anyway after his pretty clear statements from December and January, he gave the ball to Dassault and they gave their answer. It's now on the DM to take a proper decision!



Seems the latest remarks indicate that the French are simply not interested. They are not stupid not to understand what they are doing. They almost seem to be daring the GoI. Inexplicable behaviour really.


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## Prajapati

Echo_419 said:


> MKI may seem to cost a little less than Rafael at this moment but in the long run factoring in the Maintenance cost,the french plane will cost less,Not to forget MKI is a Air superiority fighter & French one is a Multirole one & most importantly the IAF knows more than you & me and they insist on this deal so it must be the right option.



Sure IAF knows more than me about qualifying Aircraft's and waging an Air battle. Simple matter is that India cannot afford their choice of aircraft. Time for them to make a more informed choice  .... and maybe act a bit more maturely. I hope they have a plan B in place.

The GoI knows more about what is best for India than the IAF, so if they scrap the deal, that too must be the right choice.



Bang Galore said:


> Seems the latest remarks indicate that the French are simply not interested. They are not stupid not to understand what they are doing. They almost seeming to be daring the GoI. Inexplicable behaviour really.



French are just setting up India to take the blame for the deal's failure. They are preparing to play Chicken. Chicken (game theory) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia or walk away if need be.

If they loose this deal, the French will have to work harder in any other markets to regain their credibility.


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## Bang Galore

Prajapati said:


> If they loose this deal, the French will have to work harder in any other markets to regain their credibility.



The French would have no credibility in India especially adding this to the Scorpene & M2k upgrade deals, it will have to be a very brave RM who would think of offering them any major contracts.


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## Prajapati

Bang Galore said:


> The French would have no credibility in India especially adding this to the Scorpene & M2k upgrade deals, it will have to be a very brave RM who would think of offering them any major contracts.



I suspect the M2K deal was the IAF paying off Dsssault for making Rafale as L1. Just one of those doubts that refuses to go away. 

Rusians have very little credibility too (mig, Viki), so do the Americans. Best credibility is a Strong Legal Contract


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## Abingdonboy

Prajapati said:


> Ploughing 100% of the money back into India is a MUCH BETTER deal. No ?


100%???!! *100%?!!!
*
Are you out of your mind? What do you think would compel Sukhoi to engage in this kind of charity where HAL get to churn out an unlimited number of MKIs without paying a single cent to the Russians who own all the IPRs of the MKI?



Prajapati said:


> For the Su 30 MKI India is Force to buy only Alloys for the body and engine, EVERYTHING else is made in India, so yes I can live with that.


And what do you think the ToT with the MMRCA competition is all about? 



Prajapati said:


> Not to mention its a LOT Cheaper and gives a HUGE BOOST to our own Indigenous development. THAT is Priceless.


Cheaper to buy upfront (even then the Super MKIs are going to be costing the IAF close to the cost of s Rafale) but not cheaper to maintain over their life span. 



Prajapati said:


> Su 30 MKI availability is Low due to the fact that IAF does not bother stockpiling spare parts. IAF starts doing that, the availability goes up to 80%. That was also indirectly confirmed by Parrikar.



For you to actually think Russian products can compete with the reliability of their Western counterparts is beyond naive. The IAF could stockpile all the spares in the world but that wouldn't change the fact that Russian products (even the MKI) are more unreliable, harder to keep airworthy and with shorter lifespans. 



Prajapati said:


> IAF has been pushing for a new toy for ages, its a shame they won't be getting one. Time for them to start streamlining their own operations to improve efficiency and focus on indigenous toys. They don't like it ? Too bad, they better learn to live with it.


The IAF has been "pushing" for "new toys" because their "old toys" (MiG-21/27) have been falling out of the skies for decades now.

The LCA has only just about achieved the standard that makes it a worthy replacement as far as the IAF is concerned. Blaming the IAF for this mess isn't a legitimate stance. 



Prajapati said:


> MKI is cheaper and almost 90% of it is built in India. Best case scenario for Rafale is that 50% will be built in India and its will be twice as Expensive.


Like I said, cheaper upfront but so what? This is facade, there is a reason that the Russians have started to lose out time and time again in competitions now that the Indian forces take into account life cycle costs.

Anyway you clearly don't know how the MMRCA is structured and the agreements that will take place if it is signed. As per the RFP the first SQD (around 18 aircraft) will be delivered off the shelf from the foreign manufacturer (Dassualt in this case) but every subsequent batch will be made in India starting with knocked down kits, then semi knocked down kits and so on until the Rafale is being built in India with raw materials sourced from India. If you want to pull the 90% out of thin air for the MKI then the Rafale would match it along with coming with 50% offsets and ToT of some critical tech (AESA radars and cutting edge EW systems).


Nothing you have said makes a compelling case for more MKIs nor diverting some funds to the LCA as @sancho said, simply throwing money at that problem won't necessarily solve it and anyway most of the issues have been addressed and the IAF is ready to accept deliveries.



Prajapati said:


> Sure IAF knows more than me about qualifying Aircraft's and waging an Air battle. Simple matter is that India cannot afford their choice of aircraft. Time for them to make a more informed choice  .... and maybe act a bit more maturely. I hope they have a plan B in place.


Time to act a bit more maturely? What nonsense are you talking now? The IAF have not acted in a immature fashion in anyway, this is a grossly inaccurate and, frankly, stupid statement. "India can't afford their choice of aircraft"? Based on what? Have you seen the MoD's defence budgets for the next 30 years so you can make such a grand statement? If the IAF can't afford the Rafale then they certainly can't afford another 126-200 MKIs (which is what you are prescribing). You have got a certain line of thinking into your head and you need to snap out of it because you are just plain wrong.



Prajapati said:


> I suspect the M2K deal was the IAF paying off Dsssault for making Rafale as L1. Just one of those doubts that refuses to go away.


Take your slanderous and unsubstantiated comments elsewhere.



Bang Galore said:


> Seems the latest remarks indicate that the French are simply not interested. They are not stupid not to understand what they are doing. They almost seeming to be daring the GoI. Inexplicable behaviour really.


Indeed, this doesn't seem like the actions of a profit-maximising company but at the same time I think we all have to admit we are working off second and and inherently imperfect information. There could be a lot going on behind the scenes that we aren't aware of.


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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> Seems the latest remarks indicate that the French are simply not interested. They are not stupid not to understand what they are doing. They almost seem to be daring the GoI. Inexplicable behaviour really.



I still differ between "the French" including the government and the rest of their industry and Dassault, since the problem clearly is based only at Dassault. But yes, it's gone far beyond any rational and we have to take a decision now after wasting 3 years. More than disappointing, but that's on them.

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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> I still differ between "the French" including the government and the rest of their industry and Dassault, since the problem clearly is based only at Dassault. But yes, it's gone far beyond any rational and we have to take a decision now after wasting 3 years. More than disappointing, but that's on them.




Since the French MoD supported Dassault, I think it has gone beyond just one company. If this deal dies, I think there is every possibility of a chilling effect against the French in other deals too.


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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> Since the French MoD supported Dassault, I think it has gone beyond just one company. If this deal dies, I think there is every possibility of a chilling effect against the French in other deals too.



Which again is too simple, this was the first statement on that and that's only aimed on Dassault. The French industry however is far more than Dassault and we have way more links with them, which is why France is the 3rd biggest importer of arms and systems for India. Thales with avionics, Turbomeca or Snecma with engines, MBDA with weapons, Eurocopter with helicopter, Airbus with aircrafts, DCNS with subs, LPDs or tankers, Nexter with howitzers..., the list is long and the relation deep.

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## Abingdonboy

*Thales : We Are Already Culturally Indian, Sharing Knowledge, Technologies and Expertise with the Local Industry for Years*

_[...] In July 2011, Thales and Dassault Aviation signed a contract for the upgrade of the Indian Air Force’s Mirage 2000 fleet.[...] Thales is on time with the contractual delivery calendar. Considering each step has been undertaken in strict accordance with the terms of the contract, IAF is extremely satisfied. The next major milestone will be the certification by IAF at the end of 2015. 
The serial kits production has now begun and the first kit has been approved. Considering these kits will be fitted onto the aircraft at HAL, the support has started for the fifth aircraft. Additionally, the development of the FOC standard, integrating indigenous equipment, has begun. [...]_

We Are Already Culturally Indian, Sharing Knowledge, Technologies and Expertise with the Local Industry for Years



Bang Galore said:


> Since the French MoD supported Dassault, I think it has gone beyond just one company. If this deal dies, I think there is every possibility of a chilling effect against the French in other deals too.


France is bigger than Dassualt and India has a LOT more interest in Franch defence deals beyond the Rafale


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/565488660645019648

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## Prajapati

Abingdonboy said:


> 100%???!! *100%?!!!*
> Are you out of your mind? What do you think would compel Sukhoi to engage in this kind of charity where HAL get to churn out an unlimited number of MKIs without paying a single cent to the Russians who own all the IPRs of the MKI?
> 
> And what do you think the ToT with the MMRCA competition is all about?



100% of LCA design. 90% of MKI by production. 50% of MMRCA.  



> Cheaper to buy upfront (even then the Super MKIs are going to be costing the IAF close to the cost of s Rafale) but not cheaper to maintain over their life span.



Pure Speculation. Kindly provide MTBF of both  



> For you to actually think Russian products can compete with the reliability of their Western counterparts is beyond naive. The IAF could stockpile all the spares in the world but that wouldn't change the fact that Russian products (even the MKI) are more unreliable, harder to keep airworthy and with shorter lifespans.



Again pure speculation. Kindly provide MTBF of Russian and "western" parts. As a matter of fact, Russian products are KNOWN for their ruggedness and Ease of Maintenance. "Western" don't even get close without their Air conditioned hangars.  



> The IAF has been "pushing" for "new toys" because their "old toys" (MiG-21/27) have been falling out of the skies for decades now.



Then maybe IAF should better maintain its Mig  



> The LCA has only just about achieved the standard that makes it a worthy replacement as far as the IAF is concerned. Blaming the IAF for this mess isn't a legitimate stance.



Consider the lack of support from IAF, the blame is perfectly justified. 



> Like I said, cheaper upfront but so what? This is facade, there is a reason that the Russians have started to lose out time and time again in competitions now that the Indian forces take into account life cycle costs.



Prove it  ........... fact is, you cant. Its pure speculation. Russian parts are WAY CHEAPER than western parts 



> Anyway you clearly don't know how the MMRCA is structured and the agreements that will take place if it is signed. As per the RFP the first SQD (around 18 aircraft) will be delivered off the shelf from the foreign manufacturer (Dassualt in this case) but every subsequent batch will be made in India starting with knocked down kits, then semi knocked down kits and so on until the Rafale is being built in India with raw materials sourced from India. If you want to pull the 90% out of thin air for the MKI then the Rafale would match it along with coming with 50% offsets and ToT of some critical tech (AESA radars and cutting edge EW systems).



This foolish expectation is precisely why MMRCA deal will NEVER get signed.  



> Nothing you have said makes a compelling case for more MKIs nor diverting some funds to the LCA as @sancho said, simply throwing money at that problem won't necessarily solve it and anyway most of the issues have been addressed and the IAF is ready to accept deliveries.



Good for IAF. Now they can practice smiling when the receive the LCA. Just to appear like good sports. 



> Time to act a bit more maturely? What nonsense are you talking now? The IAF have not acted in a immature fashion in anyway, this is a grossly inaccurate and, frankly, stupid statement. "India can't afford their choice of aircraft"? Based on what? Have you seen the MoD's defence budgets for the next 30 years so you can make such a grand statement? If the IAF can't afford the Rafale then they certainly can't afford another 126-200 MKIs (which is what you are prescribing). You have got a certain line of thinking into your head and you need to snap out of it because you are just plain wrong.



IAF lack of maturity is already established. By delaying its every purchase, by not standing up to the MoD, by its POOR maintenance of its aircrafts, poorer training due to lack of sufficient trainer jets, disinterest in LCA etc. ...... Irrational admiration cannot substitute cold facts. MKI & LCA remains cheaper than Rafale's. Time for IAF to have plan B. 



> Indeed, this doesn't seem like the actions of a profit-maximising company but at the same time I think we all have to admit we are working off second and and inherently imperfect information. There could be a lot going on behind the scenes that we aren't aware of.



There is no information excepted educated guesses.


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## 帅的一匹

Stephen Cohen said:


> It is NOT about the money ie there is no haggling over price
> 
> It is about responsibility ; if Dassault does not take FULL responsibility
> then the whole programme comes to a halt with the first problem in a
> Made in India - Rafale
> 
> And Dassault *can *take care of QA/ QC issues with
> proper transfer of know how and technology to India
> 
> Then we will be able to make perfect planes
> 
> BUT Dassault is worried about HAL 's abilities and WE are worried that
> Dassault will wash off its hands once HAL starts manufacturing planes in India


No one dares to take such responsibility unless insane, In terms of the efficiency and organizational chaos in India.

You are asking French to do the impossible. India shall have some self-knowledge at least.

From Chinese perspective, your requirement is logical weird.

It just postpone the time that you can get Rafael, and dampen your national security. 99% of Indian officers will be kicked out as rubbish in China as they do nothing.

That's why I never perceive India as a threat.


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## micky

MMRCA Deal: Dassault Confirming to Indian RFP Conditions




_Dassault Rafale
by Pinaki Bhattacharya_
French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault is confirming to conditions laid down in the original request for proposals (RFP) in its conduct of negotiations with the contract negotiations committee (CNC) of the Indian MoD over the sale of 126 Rafale fighters.
A senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer in the know of things told Defenseworld.net Delhi correspondent that negotiations have so far been within the boundaries of the RFP. The aircraft being discussed to be purchased is what was tested by the IAF and not a later model as reported by various media. The officer who did not wish to be quoted said that a good part of the negotiations have been completed including a work-share agreement with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
Responding to a question, the official explained that the delay in conclusion of the contract was due to “the CNC being sensitised about issues by various external sources, including Dassault’s competitors, and the former seeking clarifications for them”.
A fresh target time frame for the completion of the negotiations has been set for March-April of 2015.
Various reports in the past have noted that Dassault was deviating from the RFP conditions and that the MoD had informed the French company to ‘stick to the RFP’.

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## Prajapati

micky said:


> MMRCA Deal: Dassault Confirming to Indian RFP Conditions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Dassault Rafale_
> _by Pinaki Bhattacharya_
> French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault is confirming to conditions laid down in the original request for proposals (RFP) in its conduct of negotiations with the contract negotiations committee (CNC) of the Indian MoD over the sale of 126 Rafale fighters.
> A senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer in the know of things told Defenseworld.net Delhi correspondent that negotiations have so far been within the boundaries of the RFP. The aircraft being discussed to be purchased is what was tested by the IAF and not a later model as reported by various media. The officer who did not wish to be quoted said that a good part of the negotiations have been completed including a work-share agreement with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
> Responding to a question, the official explained that the delay in conclusion of the contract was due to “the CNC being sensitised about issues by various external sources, including Dassault’s competitors, and the former seeking clarifications for them”.
> A fresh target time frame for the completion of the negotiations has been set for March-April of 2015.
> Various reports in the past have noted that Dassault was deviating from the RFP conditions and that the MoD had informed the French company to ‘stick to the RFP’.



IF Dassault was confirming to the RFP there would have been no need for the MOD to ask Dassault to stick to the RFP. You can hardly expect Dassault to claim otherwise.


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## sancho

> *France, India Disagree Over Key Rafale Contract Issue*
> 
> After months of seeing Dassault Aviation being browbeaten in the Indian press, French arms procurement agency DGA defended its contractor, asserting that a 2012 agreement to provide India with Rafale fighter jets never committed the company to guarantee aircraft manufactured in India at state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL). However, a recent senior adviser to HAL’s management tells Aviation Week that *guaranteeing HAL’s work is not the issue, but that the French are being “rigid” and refusing to stand behind the integrity of the design*...
> 
> ...But even as a French official in India insists that “everything is at its normal pace,” Indian officials are stoking speculation that the acquisition process could be delayed again, and that India could choose to acquire more Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters as an alternative to the Rafale.
> Moreover, a retired senior Indian military officer who was involved in the drafting of the original RFP and has been a senior advisor to HAL, tells Aviation Week that *“the French don’t want to be accountable in any way*. The original equipment manufacturer [OEM] has to stand guarantee with respect to design and integrity of design. *The French are trying to get away from the OEM’s responsibility*.” He added that the defense ministry would eventually have to choose between the Rafale and the Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), a HAL-developed variant of the Sukhoi T-50...
> 
> ...*The Indian defense ministry is complaining about Dassault’s alleged unwillingness to guarantee the performance of the HAL-built aircraft*. According to Indian officials, the original RFP required bidders to transfer technology for production to HAL as well as provide a warranty for HAL’s work. “The offer of the French firm for technology transfer is compliant to the requirements specified in the RFP,” the minister said, *but Dassault’s guarantee terms—which are limited to the first 18 aircraft—are inadequate*...
> 
> ...Dassault’s response to the RFP *was influenced by a planned partnership with Reliance Industries*, a $75 billion private-sector energy-based conglomerate that planned to expand into aerospace and defense. *Reliance would have performed much of the manufacturing work on the locally built Rafales in new-build facilities*...



France, India Disagree Over Key Rafale Contract Issue | Defense content from Aviation Week

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## Prajapati

sancho said:


> France, India Disagree Over Key Rafale Contract Issue | Defense content from Aviation Week



WOW. This article is damning. Thank you for highlighting relevant points. This caught my eye, 

*............but Dassault’s guarantee terms—which are limited to the first 18 aircraft—are inadequate*... 

In short Dassault is not even providing adequate guarantees for Aircraft BUILT IN FRANCE


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## sancho

Prajapati said:


> WOW. This article is damning. Thank you for highlighting relevant points. This caught my eye,
> 
> *............but Dassault’s guarantee terms—which are limited to the first 18 aircraft—are inadequate*...
> 
> In short Dassault is not even providing adequate guarantees for Aircraft BUILT IN FRANCE



Not really, they are providing guarantees only for the 18 and not for the total of 126 as rules of the tender require guarantees for the full order.

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## Stephen Cohen

@sancho

In the article that you have posted there is a line that caught my attention

Indian government has insisted that HAL build the aircraft. *The original manufacturers of the Su-30MKI and Jaguar were not asked for similar guarantees.
*
So what is our arrangement in case of Su 30mki with the Russians


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## sancho

Stephen Cohen said:


> @sancho
> 
> In the article that you have posted there is a line that caught my attention
> 
> Indian government has insisted that HAL build the aircraft. *The original manufacturers of the Su-30MKI and Jaguar were not asked for similar guarantees.
> *
> So what is our arrangement in case of Su 30mki with the Russians



Different times, different situation. Back then we were in no position to demand any liabilities and we had to pay for any mistakes of the vendors on our own. Things have changed and the Hawk, Scorpene or even the naval gun deals shows, that today we demand more in return for the money we spend and that vendors are ready to comply.

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## Prajapati

sancho said:


> Not really, they are providing guarantees only for the 18 and not for the total of 126 as rules of the tender require guarantees for the full order.



That seems to be correct. HAL is trying to ensure Dassault does the relevant Tech. Transfer and not hold out on critical tech or processes. 

If history is any guide, the french will provide incomplete data and info and then blame the HAL for being "stupid" and "incompetent" for the delay. They will then demand additional "consultation charges" for "helping" HAL complete the aircraft's in India. HAL is wise to insist on the guarantees.  

Dassault must see its dream of black mailing more money melt away. Not a happy picture I bet

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## sancho

Prajapati said:


> HAL is wise to insist on the guarantees.



It's not HAL that is insisting on them, but IAF and the MoD, because we have bad experience with foreign vendors not supporting the licence production deals as agreed initially and this performance guarantee as well as liability clause is a safeguard for them that this doesn't happen in other projects. That's why these kind of clauses were implemented in the DPP2006 and onwards, the same DDP that was the base for the Hawk trainer RFP and licence production and that's still the best example to show that this feature worked!

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## Razia Sultana

Gandhi follower said:


> I hope we scrap the deal. We a poor nation can't afford such expensive toys. better to invest in good relationship with china. china is the real threat.


Do you remember Panchsheel and Hindi-Chini Bhai-Bhai.


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## Echo_419

Prajapati said:


> That seems to be correct. HAL is trying to ensure Dassault does the relevant Tech. Transfer and not hold out on critical tech or processes.
> 
> *If history is any guide, the french will provide incomplete data and info and then blame the HAL for being "stupid" and "incompetent" for the delay. They will then demand additional "consultation charges" for "helping" HAL complete the aircraft's in India. HAL is wise to insist on the guarantees*.
> 
> Dassault must see its dream of black mailing more money melt away. Not a happy picture I bet



You maybe right on that one but the question remains why wasn't this requirement included in the RFP


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## Prajapati

Echo_419 said:


> You maybe right on that one but the question remains why wasn't this requirement included in the RFP



The article says otherwise, 

According to Indian officials, the original RFP required bidders to transfer technology for production to HAL *as well as provide a warranty for HAL’s work.*


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## Echo_419

Prajapati said:


> The article says otherwise,
> 
> According to Indian officials, the original RFP required bidders to transfer technology for production to HAL *as well as provide a warranty for HAL’s work.*



Then we need to tell the french to comply with the RFP Requirements or go Fook themselves

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## flamer84

Looks like Egypt just became the first customer for the Rafale.

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## Prajapati

flamer84 said:


> Looks like Egypt just became the first customer for the Rafale.



Good for the French  ...... how much are you paying per pop ?


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## flamer84

Prajapati said:


> Good for the French  ...... how much are you paying per pop ?




Me ? I could barely afford the Dacia i bought a while ago.Can't really get a Rafale altough it would come in handy.

The Egyptians ? From what i've read, somewhere in the 5 billion + euros range for 24 fighters,missiles and 1 FREMM.

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## Agent_47

sancho said:


> It's not HAL that is insisting on them, but IAF and the MoD, because we have bad experience with foreign vendors not supporting the licence production deals as agreed initially and this performance guarantee as well as liability clause is a safeguard for them that this doesn't happen in other projects. That's why these kind of clauses were implemented in the DPP2006 and onwards, the same DDP that was the base for the Hawk trainer RFP and licence production and that's still the best example to show that this feature worked!


In France Dassault could be blaming DCNS for messing with Indians in the scorpion deal !  Where all the liability shit started.


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## sancho

flamer84 said:


> Looks like Egypt just became the first customer for the Rafale.



News reports hint in that direction, but so far it doesn't effect a possible Indian deal, since it seems that they get only 3 Rafales before 2018 and those will be diverted from French orders. That means that still 18 x Rafales will be available for an export customer between the end of 2016 and the end of 2017, be it for Qatar or India.



Agent_47 said:


> In France Dassault could be blaming DCNS for messing with Indians in the scorpion deal !  Where all the liability shit started.



No, we implemented the liability clause with the Defence Procurement Procedure in 2006, so even before we sent out the RFP of the MMRCA. And the Scorpene issue is a different case, because the delays are caused from our side too.


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## IrbiS

*France, Egypt to conclude Rafale fighter jet in Cairo on Monday - Le Monde*

_PARIS, Feb 12 (R-euters) - France and Egypt will finalise a defence deal that includes 24 Dassault-built Rafale fighter jets worth more than 5 billion euros ($5.7 billion), Le Monde reported on Thursday.
The newspaper, which did not identify its source, said the two sides had initialled the deal on Thursday and that the final page outlining the modalities would be signed on Monday by Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al-Sissi and French officials.
French and Egyptian government officials and Dassault executives could not immediately be reached for comment. ($1 = 0.8799 euros) (Reporting By John Irish; Editing by Andrew Callus)_

France, Egypt to conclude Rafale fighter jet in Cairo on Monday - Le Monde | Daily Mail Online

*The Rafale sale agreement with Egypt was initialled*

_The sale agreement with Egypt of 24 Rafale aircraft, a frigate multimission FREEM and short and medium-range MBDA missiles, amounting to more than 5 billion euros, has been signed by all parties Thursday February 12th._

_The last page of the document, which details the terms of the agreement has yet to be a final dual official signature, between Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sissi, and a representative of the French State which could be the President of the Republic, François Hollande, himself, or the Minister of Defence, Jean-Yves Le Drian.
The ceremonial signing is scheduled Monday, February 16 in Cairo.[...]

Le Rafale remporte « son premier contrat à l'export », se félicite François Hollande

*France says Rafale deal with Egypt could be signed in next few days*

Feb 12 (R-euters) - French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said a deal with Egypt for the sale of 24 Dassault Aviation-built Rafale fighter jets could be signed in the next few days. "Maybe a little earlier," Fabius told i-Tele television when asked to confirm the agreement would be signed by next Feb. 16 or Feb. 17. "Things are looking very good on that front."
The two countries agreed a deal worth more than 5 billion euros ($5.7 billion) for the fighter jets, a naval frigate and missiles, a French source close to the matter told ******* on Thursday.

France says Rafale deal for fighter jets with Egypt could be signed in next few days - Breaking News - Jerusalem Post

*Le Drian will go to Egypt Monday to sign the Rafale contracts*

The final agreement to sell 24 Rafale fighter jets to Egypt will be signed on Monday in Cairo, said the entourage of the Minister of Defense.
It's official: France will sell its first Rafale fighters. Jean-Yves Le Drian will go Monday to Cairo to sign the agreement to sell 24 Rafale to Egypt [not only..], Europe 1 has learned from a source close to the defense minister. [...]

Le Drian se rend lundi en Egypte pour signer les contrats Rafale

*France's Hollande says Egypt to order 24 Rafale jets and frigate*

BRUSSELS Feb 12 (*******) - President Francois Hollande said on Thursday Egypt would order 24 Rafale fighter jets, a warship and related military equipment from France, after years of failed attempts to export the plane.
"The Egyptian authorities have just let me know their intention of acquiring 24 Rafale planes, a multi-mission frigate as well as related equipment," Hollande said in a statement, adding that the accord would be signed by Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian in Cairo on Monday.





_

Élysée (@Elysee) | Twitter

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## Prajapati

wow. That is 230 Million $ per aircraft


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## Iggy

Can we sur Dassault for violating the RFP clause? I mean if they are not interested in working according to RFP why they participated ib the first place?


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## Prajapati

seiko said:


> Can we sur Dassault for violating the RFP clause? I mean if they are not interested in working according to RFP why they participated ib the first place?



I am sure Dassault is exploiting a legal loophole. Still its worth a shot, but it will sour relationships.


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## topgun047

The Egypt deal should allow India to gracefully leave this quagmire.


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## Major Shaitan Singh

*France confirms sale of Rafale fighter jets to Egypt*






Dassault Aviation confirmed today the Arab Republic of Egypt’s decision to equip its air force with the Rafalefighter jet. “This decision is a continuation of our cooperation that dates back to the 1970s, and has seen the Mirage 5, the Alpha Jet and the Mirage 2000 fly in the colors of Egypt.” Dassault commented. The Egyptian decision marks the second international selection of the French fighter, following the Indian selection of Rafale in 2012.

The Egyptian order will cover 24 aircraft, part of which will be delivered this year. The order worth about 3.6-4 billion Euros is expected to be signed on February 16, the Elysee Palace said in a statement.


The Rafale is the first completely omnirole fighter capable of accomplishing all the missions assigned to combat aircraft (air-air, air-ground, air-sea). It first came into active service with the French Navy and the French Air Force in 2004-2006, gradually replacing seven types of aircraft belonging to the preceding generations. It was deployed in Afghanistan (2007-2012), Libya (2011), in the Sahel-Saharan strip(since 2013) and in Iraq (since September 2014). It was chosen for the Indian Army’s request for proposal for 126 aircraft. Negotiations surrounding the Rafale are currently underway with several governments.





Rafale fighter jets have been operating in combat missions continuously since their first missions in Afghanistan in 2009. In recent years French Rafales took part in combat sorties in Libya, Chad, Mali, Syria and Iraq. Photo: Dassault Aviation

http://defense-update.com/20150213_france-confirms-sale-of-rafale-to-

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## halloweene

Prajapati said:


> wow. That is 230 Million $ per aircraft


Err a destroyer sized modern frigate isn't cheap also. And the deal include armaments. Finally we do not know the real amount of the deal.


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## rockstarIN

Good time for us to exit gracefully from the deal...

Should concentrate on single seated MKI's ed Su-35 in half of this amount.


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## CONNAN

rockstarIN said:


> Good time for us to exit gracefully from the deal...
> 
> Should concentrate on single seated MKI's ed Su-35 in half of this amount.



Sukhoi did have an idea but unfortunately didn't go with it


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## rockstarIN

CONNAN said:


> Sukhoi did have an idea but unfortunately didn't go with it



Even we can take PAK FA air frame as a base with external weapon stations(MKI'sed), a good jet with lesser RCS. This in turn can help PAK FA programme with high rate of production!

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## Stephen Cohen

@halloweene @Taygibay 

In The France Egypt deal ; what has been the agreed price of each Rafale


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## sancho

seiko said:


> Can we sur Dassault for violating the RFP clause? *I mean if they are not interested in working according to RFP why they participated ib the first place?*



Even if that's true, there is nothing we could do about it, other than rejecting Dassaults bid. It's very disappointing though.


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## nik22

For Dassault, It has been good publicity. Since there was a technical evaluation process and Rafale was declared winner.
Now after deal with Egypt, dassaut would be like "see our plane is best, you know that. Get the deal finalized on our terms otherwise we got other clients".

(Egypt deal is nowhere close to potential Indian order but it gives Dassault a big shot in the arm.)


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## possumlot

nik22 said:


> For Dassault, It has been good publicity. Since there was a technical evaluation process and Rafale was declared winner.
> Now after deal with Egypt, dassaut would be like "see our plane is best, you know that. Get the deal finalized on our terms otherwise we got other clients".
> 
> (Egypt deal is nowhere close to potential Indian order but still it gives Dassault a shot in the arm.)



Dassault has paid from its pocket to participate in the MMRCA so in reality they have paid for their publicity and it IS a pretty great aircraft.



halloweene said:


> Err a destroyer sized modern frigate isn't cheap also. And the deal include armaments. Finally we do not know the real amount of the deal.



A fully loaded 6,200 Tons Shivalik class cost India 330 Million $. I am going to say 230 million $ for 1 aircraft is VERY expensive.

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## Abingdonboy

*Interview of CEO Eric Trappier (RTL radio)*

_"With India it's going to take a little more time than with Egypt. India is a country that takes its time but we already had a victory with the result of a competition in which 6 aircraft were engaged [...] For 3 years, we are negotiating the terms of the contract. [...] Which takes more time is the establishment of a deep industrial partnership with Indian industrialists. This is in the making. But we must agree in every detail to be sure that, at the end, the IAF will receive its 126 aircraft, on time and with the required quality" [...]_

More (in french):
http://www.rtl.fr/actu/economie/rafa...ion-7776579559

courtesy Olybrius



possumlot said:


> A fully loaded 6,200 Tons Shivalik class cost India 330 Million $. I am going to say 230 million $ for 1 aircraft is VERY expensive.


That wiki entry is wrong, the P-17s cost about $800 million a piece. And $230 million is NOT the price offered to India for the Rafale.



nik22 said:


> For Dassault, It has been good publicity. Since there was a technical evaluation process and Rafale was declared winner.
> Now after deal with Egypt, dassaut would be like "see our plane is best, you know that. Get the deal finalized on our terms otherwise we got other clients".
> 
> (Egypt deal is nowhere close to potential Indian order but it gives Dassault a big shot in the arm.)


I don't think being unable to clinch the single largest fighter order in modern history would be good publicity for Dassualt in any way shape or form, I'd expect some serious heads to roll in Dassualt if they should fail to get the MMRCA clinched.

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## PARIKRAMA

Well lets be clear a Fremm and 24 rafales packaged in soft loans is not a big deal at all.. its more of the small need to run the line longer with little fodder which made french sale to Egypt.

MMRCA loss whether france likes or not will hit Dassault harder simply bcz after attaining L1 and unable to execute the contract finalisation especially with reasons cited in media which are against the RFP definitely i agree with @Abingdonboy heads would roll...

My only contention is why Dassault is so insistent? Whats the strategy behind this posturing? Are they oki with losing out MMRCA? Or there is more than what meets our eyes?


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## possumlot

Abingdonboy said:


> That wiki entry is wrong, the P-17s cost about $800 million a piece. And $230 million is NOT the price offered to India for the Rafale.



Slight correction from me,

Wiki is almost always wrong. Here are the actual prices as per Indian parliament and CAG.

Project 17, Shivalik class, 6,200 Tons

INR 8101 Crores *for 3 Ships*, This translates to 1.3 Billion $ or *435 Million $ Per SHIP*.

Talwar Class, 4,000 TOns

INR 5,114 Crores *for 3 Ships*, This translates to 825 Million $ or *275 million $ PER SHIP

*


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## Agent_47

possumlot said:


> Slight correct from me,
> 
> Wiki is almost always wrong. Here are the actual prices as per Indian parliament and CAG.
> 
> Project 17, Shivalik class, 6,200 Tons
> 
> INR 8101 Crores *for 3 Ships*, This translates to 1.3 Billion $ or *435 Million $ Per SHIP*.
> 
> Talwar Class, 4,000 TOns
> 
> INR 5,114 Crores *for 3 Ships*, This translates to 825 Million $ or *275 million $ PER SHIP
> *


Source please.
Both were subject to cost hike.


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## possumlot

Agent_47 said:


> Source please.
> Both were subject to cost hike.



Why don't you produce source to show cost hike ?  

Cabinet nod for purchase of warships - The Hindu

"The CCS approved the purchase of three Russian frigates to be built to Indian specifications at a cost of* Rs. 5,114 crore*."

Rs 3L cr plan to boost India's naval might - The Times of India

This will follow the three 6,200-tonne stealth frigates built at MDL for *Rs 8,101 crore*, INS Shivalik, INS Satpura and INS Sahyadri


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## Taygibay

@Stephen Cohen

I'll offer a tentative temporary answer, mate. The total contract is for 5.2B Euros.
Out of this, the FREMM frigate takes a decent chunk for DCNS, around 610 M Euros since it is a French one maybe a tad more. MBDA gets a side contract, rather big, for the Aster 15 missiles also found on Horizon ships and UK type 45 destroyers but also around 400M Euros for ground based anti-air missiles it seems.
Etienne Lacroix group gets a small bit too as present on both the vessel and the aircrafts ( EW ).

The remainder ( 3.6/3.8 B ) is split between Dassault, as well as SAGEM for the AASM. We do know that it will comprise 18 two-seaters and 6 single seaters. The first 3 to be delivered in August 3 more of the same by next summer and the rest by 2017. SCALPs in Black Shaheen version ( cruise missiles ) are apparently included but I'm not 100% positive on that ( i.e. no direct proof ).
The details can hardly be defined further before the official signing on Monday.

As such, the price per bird seems to be below 2x that of the plane itself which is quite normal in such cases as that will include not only spare parts but pilot training. No more than 220 -230 M each with all the priors included. This is not so high as the Egyptians asked for nearly immediate delivery as found above. The same goes for financing. As France backs most of the loan, the government would not make it cheap or cheaper on top of that, if you see the idea.
Difficulties in defining the perimeter of included services don't allow me to provide a better assessment for now.

Halloweene who has, hum ... say multi-institutional links/access to Dassault  , will give you a much better answer but even him may not be at liberty to do so before Monday's IDEX signing.

I hope it helps.
Good day all, Tay.

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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> *MMRCA loss whether france likes or not will hit Dassault harder *simply bcz after attaining L1 and unable to execute the contract finalisation especially with reasons cited in media which are against the RFP definitely i agree with @Abingdonboy heads would roll...
> 
> Actually it would hit only "France", not Dassault. Fot Dassault it would be "just" another disappointement after Switzerland, Brazil and the still not cleared deals in the UAE and Qatar, which both are under negotiation for at least as long as they do it in India. The main point however, that Dassault does fine even without exports and just with the French Rafale order. For the French government, the Forces and even large parts of the French industry, any export is a relief. Franche gets some relief for the defence budget, by diverting some of their orders now and maybe adding them in future again, just as Sagem now gets more orders for AASM and can extend it's production line. While the French forces surely would love to see UAE, Qatar or India to buy the Rafale and fund upgrades they also might be able to use, but all this is obviously not important for Dassault.
> 
> My only contention is why Dassault is so insistent? Whats the strategy behind this posturing? Are they oki with losing out MMRCA? Or there is more than what meets our eyes?



It this case, it their relation to Reliance that is the key for the problem. Since they teamed up with them, they started to deviate from the rules. First it was the made up workshare issue, to divert more work to RIL and when they realized that it doesn't work, they tried it with the liability clause. They are taking big risks, to gain more benefits through and for RIL.

=>



> ...Dassault’s response to the RFP *was influenced by a planned partnership with Reliance Industries*, a $75 billion private-sector energy-based conglomerate that planned to expand into aerospace and defense. *Reliance would have performed much of the manufacturing work on the locally built Rafales in new-build facilities*...



Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 21


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## Hindustani78

Dassault "confident" of Rafale deal with India - The Economic Times
By PTI | 13 Feb, 2015, 11.08PM IST 

PARIS: French defence company Dassault Aviation today said it was "very confident" that three years of talks with India on the sale of 126 Rafales worth 12 billion euros would result in a deal. 

Eric Trappier, chief executive of Dassault Aviation which manufactures Rafale, in an interview with BFM television, said talks were slow as India wanted some of the jets manufactured at home in a bid to boost defence manufacturing, meaning the details of every nut and bolt had to be agreed upon. 

The negotiations have got into trouble recently, leading to delay in finalisation of the contract for supply of 126 fighter planes.


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## UKBengali

Abingdonboy said:


> I don't think being unable to clinch the single largest fighter order in modern history would be good publicity for Dassualt in any way shape or form, I'd expect some serious heads to roll in Dassualt if they should fail to get the MMRCA clinched.



The Egyptian deal changes everything.

Now that the French have managed to sell to Egypt, then the market is open to them sell more to oil-rich GCC states. If a poor country like Egypt is willing to pay top dollar for Rafale, then the GCC countries would also be willing to pay for sizeble number of Rafales.

India has lost it's one trump card with the French now - they either buy the fighters on French dictated terms or not at all.


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## Hindustani78

UKBengali said:


> The Egyptian deal changes everything.
> 
> Now that the French have managed to sell to Egypt, then the market is open to them sell more to oil-rich GCC states. If a poor country like Egypt is willing to pay top dollar for Rafale, then the GCC countries would also be willing to pay for sizeble number of Rafales.
> 
> India has lost it's one trump card with the French now - they either buy the fighters on French dictated terms or not at all.



I think here the Rafale deal with Egypt is more related to the relations and influence of NATO and Russia around Middle East.

French area of influence is there in Maghrib and there Egypt is the heavy weight. Recent visit of President Putin to Egypt was like an eye opener for France and NATO. Russian Federation is trying to expand its influence in Middle East and Latin America.

The French Deal with Egypt is like to convince Indian Government about the technology transfer.


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## possumlot

sancho said:


> It this case, it their relation to Reliance that is the key for the problem. Since they teamed up with them, they started to deviate from the rules. First it was the made up workshare issue, to divert more work to RIL and when they realized that it doesn't work, they tried it with the liability clause. They are taking big risks, to gain more benefits through and for RIL.
> Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 21



Its silly to assume Dassault is batting for RIL. Dassault don't give a $hit about RIL. 

Dassault wanted RIL so that they could bypass the technology transfer requirement and RIL was ready to play along by assembling parts and calling it "indigenous manufacturing".

HAL refuses to play ball. HAL has insisted on the technology transfer and also gurantees to ensure that ON TIME.

Its as simple as that.



UKBengali said:


> The Egyptian deal changes everything.
> 
> Now that the French have managed to sell to Egypt, then the market is open to them sell more to oil-rich GCC states. If a poor country like Egypt is willing to pay top dollar for Rafale, then the GCC countries would also be willing to pay for sizeble number of Rafales.
> 
> India has lost it's one trump card with the French now - they either buy the fighters on French dictated terms or not at all.



The Egyptian deal means NOTHING to India. The RFP means EVERYTHING. 

It might mean something to Dassault, but its idotic to think Indian contracts based on published RFP and submitted Proposals are dictated by whims and fancies of global trade.


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## Hindustani78

possumlot said:


> The Egyptian deal means NOTHING to India. The RFP means EVERYTHING.
> 
> It might mean something to Dassault, but its idotic to think Indian contracts based on published RFP and submitted Proposals are dictated by whims and fancies of global trade.



I think Egyptian Rafale has do more with the Middle East situation.

RFP is more about spares as the problem is being seen even in the Mirage 2000 upgradation.


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## possumlot

Hindustani78 said:


> I think Egyptian Rafale has do more with the Middle East situation.
> 
> RFP is more about spares as the problem is being seen even in the Mirage 2000 upgradation.



RFP is Request For Proposal for the MMRCA contract. It specifies everything required in the contract.


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## Hindustani78

possumlot said:


> RFP is Request For Proposal for the MMRCA contract. It specifies everything required in the contract.



i am aware what RPF stands for.

According to Indian officials, the original RFP required bidders to transfer technology for production to HAL as well as provide a warranty for HAL’s work. “The offer of the French firm for technology transfer is compliant to the requirements specified in the RFP,”

Technology transfer includes spares.


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## possumlot

Hindustani78 said:


> i am aware what RPF stands for.
> 
> According to Indian officials, the original RFP required bidders to transfer technology for production to HAL as well as provide a warranty for HAL’s work. “The offer of the French firm for technology transfer is compliant to the requirements specified in the RFP,”
> 
> Technology transfer includes spares.



You do realise that "spares" as just REPEAT parts of the Aircraft. right ? Those with lower MTBF.


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## UKBengali

possumlot said:


> The Egyptian deal means NOTHING to India. The RFP means EVERYTHING.
> 
> It might mean something to Dassault, but its idotic to think Indian contracts based on published RFP and submitted Proposals are dictated by whims and fancies of global trade.



It means India has zero bargaining power.

Buy on French terms are don't buy at all. France has other markets for Rafale now.


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## SpArK

UKBengali said:


> It means India has zero bargaining power.
> 
> Buy or French terms are don't buy at all. France has other markets for Rafale now.



Yes that is the meaning. Brilliant.


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## Stephen Cohen

UKBengali said:


> It means India has zero bargaining power.



20 Billion dollars is a lot of money ; we will use it wisely



UKBengali said:


> Buy on French terms are don't buy at all. France has other markets for Rafale now.



If our demands are not met we will continue buying MORE SU 30 mki

BTW read this statement of Dassault CEO

Dassault “confident” of Rafale deal with India | idrw.org


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## Stephen Cohen

Lone Ranger said:


> Wisest thing would be to buy 200 odd rafales with full weapons stack off the shelf from France this will make PAK and china Pee in pants



There are two parts of Rafale Acquisition 

1 Capability of IAF to face A two front war 

2 Technology transfer to India and an enhancement of our Industrial capabilities 

The FIRST part can ALSO be done through MORE Su 30 mki which are being upgraded
AND FGFA 

The Second part is MORE Important ie Technology transfer 

When you spend so much money ; you should get FULL value for your money


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## possumlot

UKBengali said:


> It means India has zero bargaining power.
> 
> Buy on French terms are don't buy at all. France has other markets for Rafale now.



The Rafale deal with India is bigger than the Market capitalization of Dassault, roughly 6 Times its market cap  ...... that is *pretty good *bargaining power in my books. 

Without a large order Dassault is running on Fumes.


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## sancho

possumlot said:


> *Its silly to assume Dassault is batting for RIL*. Dassault don't give a $hit about RIL.
> 
> *Dassault wanted RIL so that they could bypass the technology transfer requirement and RIL was ready to play along by assembling parts and calling it "indigenous manufacturing"*.



And there you have the answer why Dassault is batting for RIL!


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## possumlot

sancho said:


> And there you have the answer why Dassault is batting for RIL!



I guess they were stupid enough to think Reliance clout will help them through. 

That is what happens when you start believing your own propaganda about crazy corruption in India.


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## halloweene

Wont comment on shivalik fully loaded FREMM is opearated by 109 sailors. 250 are needed on Shivalik.... Did you take into account the cost of training, spare parts etc?I think you forgot that the deal included also weaponry for both airplanes and frigate. ASTER 15, Exocet, Torpedoesmaybe VL mica, Mica, AASM, Scalp...
So you are just purely speculating on costs of airplane.


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## Abingdonboy

UKBengali said:


> It means India has zero bargaining power.
> 
> Buy on French terms are don't buy at all. France has other markets for Rafale now.


Sales to Egypt, UAE and Qatar wouldn't be worth even 1 MMRCA deal with India (forget the clause for an additional 63) so I still think India holds the bargaining power quite considerably.

You think the Dassualt executives would not be in some deep dirt with the board of Dassualt for failing to clinch the largest fighter buy of a generation? This is just illogical. India still holds the cards but the pressure is on both sides to get this deal done and done fast.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


*Dassault "confident" of Rafale deal with India *

_PARIS: French defence company Dassault Aviation today said it was "very confident" that three years of talks with India on the sale of 1*26 Rafales worth 12 billion euros *would result in a deal. Eric Trappier, chief executive of Dassault Aviation which manufactures Rafale, in an interview with BFM television, said talks were slow as India wanted some of the jets manufactured at home in a bid to boost defence manufacturing, meaning the details of every nut and bolt had to be agreed upon [...]. _

From:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...campaign=cppst

12 billion Euros is around $14 billion USD (current exchange rate), I wonder if this is the price Eric Trappier actually used in the interview.



halloweene said:


> Wont comment on shivalik fully loaded FREMM is opearated by 109 sailors. 250 are needed on Shivalik.... Did you take into account the cost of training, spare parts etc?I think you forgot that the deal included also weaponry for both airplanes and frigate. ASTER 15, Exocet, Torpedoesmaybe VL mica, Mica, AASM, Scalp...
> So you are just purely speculating on costs of airplane.


Manpower and training costs in India are FAR lower than in the West so the additional crew compliment and their training is not as huge an expense as you may think. Egypt too would have such low overhead costs but they still went for such an automated frigate.


But I take your point.


@halloweene and updates as far as the Rafale sale to India goes?


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## halloweene

Hindustani78 said:


> I think Egyptian Rafale has do more with the Middle East situation.
> 
> RFP is more about spares as the problem is being seen even in the Mirage 2000 upgradation.


Which pb? tellme. I'm interested. Did you know that the day of first delivery, on schedule and nominal characteristics, VK SIngh delayed a week in a last attempt to obtain a bargain?


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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> Which pb? tellme. I'm interested. Did you know that the day of first delivery, on schedule and nominal characteristics, VK SIngh delayed a week in a last attempt to obtain a bargain?


What does VK Singh (former Army chief) have to do with the Mirage 2000 upgrade?


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## UKBengali

possumlot said:


> The Rafale deal with India is bigger than the Market capitalization of Dassault, roughly 6 Times its market cap  ...... that is *pretty good *bargaining power in my books.
> 
> Without a large order Dassault is running on Fumes.



An order for 24 aircraft is a decent first export sale. There will be other orders from other ME countries.

France wants to see Rafael to India but at the price it wants and certainly no key technology
will be transferred.

Think about it this way - if France was that desperate then the sale would have been concluded by now.

French and whatever orders it gets from ME would run into maybe 300 units - plenty for Dassault.


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## halloweene

> @@halloweene and updates as far as the Rafale sale to India goes?



Not really, politics at DA is mous shut atm.
Two points 
Trappier never said something so optimistic. Not his menatality (see days previous egyptian sales for ex.)
I do know for sure that ppl are hired with long term contracts for india. There's a ruour inside about more DA ppl going to move to india for longer term than expected.
Sorry i do not know more.



Abingdonboy said:


> What does VK Singh (former Army chief) have to do with the Mirage 2000 upgrade?


Sorry i was thinking of air force chief when first modernized -2000 was delivered.. My mistake.

About DA arrogance, they may look arrogant. Their way to work is to do very deep preliminary studies and then to stick to it.
i'd say rigid instead of arrogant.

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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> There's a ruour inside about more DA ppl going to move to india for longer term than expected.


So what could this mean sir? What role are they going to India to fill i.e. what are their job descriptions?



UKBengali said:


> France wants to see Rafael to India but at the price it wants and certainly no key technology
> will be transferred.


Price has never been an issue, and the ToT is non-negotiable, see the RFP- if France don't adhere to it game over for them. Anyway this has never been a sticking point either, Dassualt have agree to this.



UKBengali said:


> Think about it this way - if France was that desperate then the sale would have been concluded by now.


Not really, as a profit maximising firm they are going to want to get the best possible deal, even if it takes a bit longer.



UKBengali said:


> French and whatever orders it gets from ME would run into maybe 300 units - plenty for Dassault.


300 units? *300?? *Please to outline where 300 units of the Rafale will go to in the ME.


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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> So what could this mean sir? What role are they going to India to fill i.e. what are their job descriptions?



They will start a new assembly line from the ground up ; tooling and equipment ;
training vendors and sub vendors ; basically implementing the offsets

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## UKBengali

@Abingdonboy : 300 is the total orders from France and ME.


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## Stephen Cohen

UKBengali said:


> Think about it this way - if France was that desperate then the sale would have been concluded by now.



The deal is taking so long because of the inherent complexities 
It is NOT about desperation or finances

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## Abingdonboy

UKBengali said:


> @Abingdonboy : 300 is the total orders from France and ME.


Oh yes I see what you said. Well I don't think any profit maximising firm would ever be satisfied with "enough" they will always want more, if Dassualt can get an additional 66% units from India (126+63) then they would surely go for that, this is just common sense.

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## Stephen Cohen

UKBengali said:


> France wants to see Rafael to India but at the price it wants and certainly no key technology will be transferred



We too want the best possible deal ; but we are NOT compromising 
we have other options too


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## UKBengali

Abingdonboy said:


> Oh yes I see what you said. Well I don't think any profit maximising firm would ever be satisfied with "enough" they will always want more, if Dassualt can get an additional 66% units from India (126+63) then they would surely go for that, this is just common sense.




But you forget the technology inside the Rafale is owned by the French state and not 
private companies.

Dassault has to work within state guidelines.


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## Stephen Cohen

UKBengali said:


> But you forget the technology inside the Rafale is owned by the French state and not
> private companies.
> 
> Dassault has to work within state guidelines.



That ha been taken care of 

Havent you seen the number of visits/ meetings between French Defence Ministers
Foreign ministers and their Indian counterparts

What do they talk about ?


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## UKBengali

Stephen Cohen said:


> That ha been taken care of
> 
> Havent you seen the number of visits/ meetings between French Defence Ministers
> Foreign ministers and their Indian counterparts
> 
> What do they talk about ?



Really? Where is the actual contract draft the specifies the terms that they are working within?


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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> Oh yes I see what you said. Well I don't think any profit maximising firm would ever be satisfied with "enough" they will always want more, if Dassualt can get an additional 66% units from India (126+63) then they would surely go for that, this is just common sense.



Once Dassault tastes success ; it would want more 

Then RUB it in on EUROFIGHTER's face 



UKBengali said:


> Really? Where is the actual contract draft the specifies the terms that they are working within?



It is being drafted as we speak 

Honestly ; I dont see why are you so excited

We have had technology transfers / Joint ventures for several years now 
with Russia ; Israel ; French and even US firms 

With RAFALE we are moving to the NEXT LEVEL


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## UKBengali

Stephen Cohen said:


> It is being drafted as we speak
> 
> Honestly ; I dont see why are you so excited
> 
> We have had technology transfers / Joint ventures for several years now
> with Russia ; Israel ; French and even US firms
> 
> With RAFALE we are moving to the NEXT LEVEL



What technology transfers so far?

India is unable to manufacture its own versions of any of the weapons systems it has brought.

No country will ever transfer core technology for any price.

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## Stephen Cohen

UKBengali said:


> No country will ever transfer core technology for any price.



That is true but still buying like Saudi Arabia is also a bad idea

SO you get whatever technology you can and then move forward from there

Every programme has its own spin off benefits


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## UKBengali

Stephen Cohen said:


> That is true but still buying like Saudi Arabia is also a bad idea
> 
> SO you get what you can and then move forward from there
> 
> Every programme has its own spin off benefits



What India really needs is the engine and radar technology from Rafale - the rest it has proved it can develop in LCA. This is technology that the French will never transfer.

Personally I am not sure why India wants up to 200 Rafales as it would be better to buy half this number and invest the saved money in engine and radar( less requirement) development. Too much spending on foreign weapons will only harm indigenous developments.


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## possumlot

UKBengali said:


> An order for 24 aircraft is a decent first export sale. There will be other orders from other ME countries.
> 
> France wants to see Rafael to India but at the price it wants and certainly no key technology
> will be transferred.
> 
> Think about it this way - if France was that desperate then the sale would have been concluded by now.
> 
> French and whatever orders it gets from ME would run into maybe 300 units - plenty for Dassault.



French is notorious for making all the wrong choices in history. Which is why the world today speak English and not French. Throughout history they have snatched defeat from the mouth of victory. Sad but True.


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## halloweene

possumlot said:


> French is notorious for making all the wrong choices in history. Which is why the world today speak English and not French. Throughout history they have snatched defeat from the mouth of victory. Sad but True.


Very smart remark. Hear it in a bar?

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## possumlot

halloweene said:


> Very smart remark. Hear it in a bar?



No, something I came up with after reading world history  .............. BTW, you speak good "English". A shame none of us speak French.


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## sancho

@halloweene 

What importance does the DPP2006 have for Dassault and do they acknowledge that the MMRCA tender is based on it?


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## Hindustani78

possumlot said:


> You do realise that "spares" as just REPEAT parts of the Aircraft. right ? Those with lower MTBF.



Many things will be there , electronics, spare partrs, equipment maintaince and regular check ups of the fighter plane. 

MTBF-based reserves relate to items which are not lifted but will have to be replaced on failure. The MTBF provided by the vendor forms the basis for these reserves. Manufacturer recommended list of spares (MRLS) caters for scheduled and unscheduled servicing and maintenance for the first five years after induction. The vendor is bound by ‘adequacy of spares’ clause and a ‘buy back’ clause in case of under/over assessment of spares required.


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## Stephen Cohen

UKBengali said:


> What India really needs is the engine and radar technology from Rafale - the rest it has proved it can develop in LCA. This is technology that the French will never transfer.
> 
> Personally I am not sure why India wants up to 200 Rafales as it would be better to buy half this number and invest the saved money in engine and radar( less requirement) development. Too much spending on foreign weapons will only harm indigenous developments.



We are stuck up ONLY on the engine which will take another decade 

Even AESA radars are making progress ; our indigenous AWACS has indigenous AESA

We want to minaturise it for LCA MK 2 ; it will happen

Rafale expenditure will NOT affect funds domestic R and D

War fighting capability is the first requirement

And building indigienous capabilities take time


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## possumlot

Hindustani78 said:


> Many things will be there , electronics, spare partrs, equipment maintaince and regular check ups of the fighter plane.
> 
> MTBF-based reserves relate to items which are not lifted but will have to be replaced on failure. The MTBF provided by the vendor forms the basis for these reserves. Manufacturer recommended list of spares (MRLS) caters for scheduled and unscheduled servicing and maintenance for the first five years after induction. The vendor is bound by ‘adequacy of spares’ clause and a ‘buy back’ clause in case of under/over assessment of spares required.



MTBF only provides a theoretical calculation of part life. It is used for spares managment. No one waits to a part to fail before replacing it.

Since the IAF aircrafts are maintained by themselves in the inhouse team at their base repair depot. Modern practice is to replace parts and not repair it. IAF unfortunately do not maintain adequate spare parts due to poor spare parts management and planing. This is primarily why their Aircrafts have low serviceability rates.

IAF expects the vendor to maintain spare parts at their own cost and do not purchase adequate stock. Its just poor planing. This peculates to 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th line spares and LRU's.

To the best of my knowledge IAF does not even have adequate software / ERP that wll help them manage Aerospace stock and increase AC serviceability.

I believe the current MOD has identified this as an problem area and will be allocating adequate budget to address this critical area. Till that happens, IAF will continue to blame Russia and HAL.


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## Stephen Cohen

possumlot said:


> To the best of my knowledge IAF does not even have adequate software / ERP that wll help them manage Aerospace stock and increase AC serviceability.



This issue is being addressed 

Read this interview The Week | We can move troops from Myanmar to China border

*We have improved the availability of aircraft by 10 per cent in the past six months. If you improve the availability, 75 per cent of your problem is solved. Sukhoi availability is also improving. Low availability is due to servicing issues and spares.*


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## possumlot

Stephen Cohen said:


> This issue is being addressed
> 
> Read this interview The Week | We can move troops from Myanmar to China border
> 
> *We have improved the availability of aircraft by 10 per cent in the past six months. If you improve the availability, 75 per cent of your problem is solved. Sukhoi availability is also improving. Low availability is due to servicing issues and spares.*



Yes, its being partially addressed. I just wanted to remove some misconceptions. Changes are required in the Air Force Manual that will reflect modern spare part inventory and logistics methodology. Budget allocation is really the key issue.


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## UKBengali

Stephen Cohen said:


> We are stuck up ONLY on the engine which will take another decade
> 
> Even AESA radars are making progress ; our indigenous AWACS has indigenous AESA
> 
> We want to minaturise it for LCA MK 2 ; it will happen
> 
> Rafale expenditure will NOT affect funds domestic R and D
> 
> War fighting capability is the first requirement
> 
> And building indigienous capabilities take time



I don't see how 200 Rafales would make India any safer than 100.

Pakistan is not really a threat and all that 200 Rafales will do is make China increase production of J-10B
fighters to even the playing field.

The saved money can be used to develop parallel programs for engines and fighter radars - and yes India is still not yet confident enough to solely try developing radar for LCA Mark 2. At the least some extra time will have been saved. India is not rich enough yet to spend huge amounts of money both on arms imports and lavishly fund indigenous developments.

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## Abingdonboy

UKBengali said:


> Pakistan is not really a threat and all that 200 Rafales will do is make China increase production of J-10B
> fighters to even the playing field.


The Indian military has reiterated again and again they are not modernising/expanding with specific nations in mind but modernising/expanding based on a pre-established capability target. There are specific capabilities the Indian military would like to have and they are working to that. So the IAF has a sanctioned strength (42 SQDs) that they are trying to achieve by 2030 and by then their target will likely be expanded to 50 SQDs and so on and so forth. 




UKBengali said:


> The saved money can be used to develop parallel programs for engines and fighter radars - and yes India is still not yet confident enough to solely try developing radar for LCA Mark 2.


The areas where India is lacking right now are not going to be addressed by throwing money at them , money is not really th issue but that it takes a long time to build up capabilities and knowledge. R&D cycles are long and thus India is still developing its capabilities, thinking that x amount of money will solve the problems is nonsensical. These issues will be addressed in time by themselves, they don't require additional funding from elsewhere (i.e. scrapping a certain number of Rafales).

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## Lonely Hermit

Stephen Cohen said:


> That is true but still buying like Saudi Arabia is also a bad idea
> 
> SO you get whatever technology you can and then move forward from there
> 
> Every programme has its own spin off benefits


So you pay for screw driver technology that you can do in house yourself.
Good way to make Ch****a out of Indian tax payers ha.


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## skysthelimit

*Rafale proposal “effectively dead” as Dassault bid not cheapest *




*By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 16th Feb 15*
Even as three Rafale fighters line up in Bengaluru for eye-popping aerobatics displays at the Aero India 2015 exhibition this week, senior ministry of defence (MoD) sources say the proposal to buy the French fighter is “effectively dead”.
The reason: During three years of negotiations between Dassault and MoD officials in the so-called “contract negotiation committee” (CNC), it has emerged that Dassault’s bid was actually higher than that of the Eurofighter Typhoon, not lower as the MoD had announced on January 31, 2012.
Dassault had submitted a sketchy commercial bid, and when the CNC obtained details from the French company to arrive at the actual cost of the Rafale, the figures added up to significantly more than had originally been estimated.
This confusion is due partly to MoD inexperience with “life cycle costing” (LCC). The global tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) was the first time the MoD was awarding a contract based on LCC. This meant the winner would not be the fighter with the cheapest purchase price; instead the chosen fighter would be the one that was cheaper to buy, fly, maintain and overhaul over its 30-40 year service life.
“An inexperienced MoD, working off incomplete and sketchy details provided by Dassault, had incorrectly adjudged the Rafale cheaper. Now, after three years of obtaining clear figures from the French, we find India would be paying significantly more than had been initially calculated,” says an official in the CNC.
Contacted for comments, the MoD has not responded.
The MoD has been backing away from the Rafale for two months now. On December 30, 2014, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar admitted for the first time there were “complications” in the negotiations with Dassault, and outlined the IAF’s alternatives.
“The Sukhoi-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force’s needs”, said Parrikar.
Last week the prime minister was pointedly distanced from the Rafale. On Saturday, an unusual MoD press release denied a newspaper report that the PM would fly in the Rafale during the Aero India 2015 air show at Bangalore this week.
“It is clarified that there is no plan for the Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi to fly in any fighter jet. The news item is incorrect, misconceived and is not based on facts”, stated the MoD.
This is the second time the MoD has gone wrong in LCC evaluations. As Business Standard reported on Saturday (“_Defence ministry official questions whether Pilatus was cheapest trainer_”, February 14) an internal MoD noting last month sharply questioned the award of a contract for 75 PC-7 Mark II basic trainer aircraft to Swiss company, Pilatus. There too, the LCC was calculated incorrectly.
Significantly, that noting, signed by AR Sule, the MoD’s “Finance Manager (Air)”, who handles financial aspects of military aircraft purchases, alerts the defence minister to issues with LCC evaluation in the MMRCA tender.
Sule writes: “The issue (with LCC calculations) may be brought to the notice of the RM (Raksha Mantri) as two high value cases of IAF based on LCC model are at CFA (competent financial authority) approval stage.”
*Dassault’s impending loss, however, will not be the Eurofighter Typhoon’s gain. Eurofighter GmbH has maintained an expensive presence in Delhi for the last three years, just in case Dassault’s bid encounters trouble. But Parrikar has made it clear that procurement procedures do not permit the second-placed vendor, i.e. Eurofighter GmbH, to be awarded the contract in place of the “preferred vendor”, i.e. Dassault. *
Dassault was adjudged winner of the MMRCA tender through a two-stage process. In the first stage the IAF ruled out on April 27, 2011 four of the six competing fighters. Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper; Saab’s Gripen NG, and the Russian MiG-35 were adjudged not to have met the IAF’s performance requirements.
In the second stage, the commercial bids of the remaining two vendors --- Dassault’s Rafale, and the Eurofighter Typhoon --- were compared on a “life cycle basis” to select the lower bidder. On January 31, 2012, the Rafale was chosen as the cheaper of the two options, a decision that the MoD is now walking away from.
A senior official familiar with the Rafale contract negotiations says, “Given the value of this contract, it was always going to be scrutinised in detail. No MoD official is willing to endorse a Rs 100,000 crore contract with Dassault when it seems as if Rafale is not even the cheapest option”.
This means the IAF would have to look elsewhere for fighters to increase its depleted squadrons from the current 35 to the authorized 45 (with 18 fighters in each squadron).
Besides enlarging its Sukhoi-30MKI fleet from the 272 fighters HAL will build by 2018, the IAF could order more indigenous Tejas Mark I fighters, over and above the 40 now on order from HAL. The IAF could also intensify its co-development of the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with Sukhoi.
For Dassault, an Indian cancellation would be a serious blow. The French air force and navy, dogged by budget cutbacks, have reduced their planned Rafale numbers from 310 to just 180. On Friday, Egypt announced it would buy 24 Rafale fighters, becoming the first and only overseas buyer for Dassault.
"India will take longer than Egypt," said Eric Trappier, the CEO of Dassault on Friday.

Broadsword: Rafale proposal “effectively dead” as Dassault bid not cheapest


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## Agent_47

If these reports are true,
only solution without hurting IAFs operational needs is to decrease the number to an extend to which enough ToT and industrial experience can be absorbed.
my bet would be minus two sqd. 126 - 36 =90
@sancho @Abingdonboy


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## Bang Galore

Agent_47 said:


> If these reports are true,
> only solution without hurting IAFs operational needs is to decrease the number to an extend to which enough ToT and industrial experience can be absorbed.
> my bet would be minus two sqd. 126 - 36 =90



If there is a problems with the figures, that wouldn't achieve anything. Neither Parrikar or Modi want to be roasted by the CAG. This was the weirdest way of calculating L1, allowing a declared lowest bidder to then increase the price. How the heck does he become the L1 then without comparing with L2 ?

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## Agent_47

Bang Galore said:


> If there is a problems with the figures, that wouldn't achieve anything. Neither Parrikar or Modi want to be roasted by the CAG. This was the weirdest way of calculating L1, allowing a declared lowest bidder to then increase the price. How the heck does he become the L1 then without comparing with L2 ?


Who knows what DPP2006 makers thinking !
since L2 is not an option,ordering more MKI is not the best of interest.
IMO , only thing left is reduce order of Rafale,order more LCA mk2 and speed up FGFA.


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## Bang Galore

Agent_47 said:


> Who knows what DPP2006 makers thinking !
> since L2 is not an option,ordering more MKI is not the best of interest.
> *IMO , only thing left is reduce order of Rafale,order* more LCA mk2 and speed up FGFA.



If the article is correct, that won't be an option because Rafale is not true L1. Pretty much guaranteed to be dealt with very harshly by the CAG if they do.


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## SpArK

L1 and L2 will fall once Rafale deal is cancelled.

Russian option in *medium* is Mig-35 which is of same league as our Mig-29s.
Operational cost effectiveness and technology transfer option is Gripen.
The new found partner US offering is F-18 which has a future and amazing after sales history as evident with Aussies.
A sure no buy is F-16.
The costly other one is EFT though offsets look better.

Other options:

More Su-30s ( but aint no medium)
More LCAs ( but aint no medium)
More AMCAs ( whats that?)
More second hand Mirages( Used ones, seriously?)

Whats ideal to spend the money upon??


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## possumlot

SpArK said:


> L1 and L2 will fall once Rafale deal is cancelled.
> 
> Russian option in *medium* is Mig-35 which is of same league as our Mig-29s.
> Operational cost effectiveness and technology transfer option is Gripen.
> The new found partner US offering is F-18 which has a future and amazing after sales history as evident with Aussies.
> A sure no buy is F-16.
> The costly other one is EFT though offsets look better.
> 
> Other options:
> 
> More Su-30s ( but aint no medium)
> More LCAs ( but aint no medium)
> More AMCAs ( whats that?)
> More second hand Mirages( Used ones, seriously?)
> 
> Whats ideal to spend the money upon??



You can be CERTAIN the money is NOT going to be spent abroad.

ONLY Indigenous manufacturing will be considered. That leaves only Su 30 MKI and LCA in the picture.

The IAF now has to decide how many of each they want. Its as simple as that.



Bang Galore said:


> If the article is correct, that won't be an option because Rafale is not true L1. Pretty much guaranteed to be dealt with very harshly by the CAG if they do.



I think both the IAF and Dassault has been too clever by half. ............ now that was fine when the UPA ws in power. But with Modi is power, Dassault is about to discover they have made a major blunder in understanding Modi.

Dassault left the Proposal with some gray areas which could be open for interpretation and price creep. Only now they will find that a price creep will effectively destroy any chance they had for closing a deal.

They thought they could blackmail their way out with IAF giving them covert support by issuing "warnings" of how IAF is dangerously low on aircrafts. But it seems like the MoD has called their bluff leaving IAF with eggs on its face and Dassault with a hole in its pocket.


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## Agent_47

Bang Galore said:


> If the article is correct, that won't be an option because Rafale is not true L1. Pretty much guaranteed to be dealt with very harshly by the CAG if they do.


Eurofighter is also not true L1 ! because the LCC assessment method was all wrong in the first place.
To make it right EF LCC should be evaluated like we did for last 3 years with Rafale,which isn't happening.
Both fighters are perfect for IAF needs and there is a visible gap in capability.And a fighter of this class is necessity.
So,Rafale is still only the viable option.


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## Bang Galore

Agent_47 said:


> Eurofighter is also not true L1 ! because the LCC assessment method was all wrong in the first place.
> To make it right EF LCC should be evaluated like we did for last 3 years with Rafale,which isn't happening.
> Both fighters are perfect for IAF needs and there is a visible gap in capability.And a fighter of this class is necessity.
> So,Rafale is still only the viable option.



No fan of the EF proposal either but if Rafale is not L1, it would normally mean EF is. However this deal has been structured so badly as to be unbelievable. We should have asked for the best offers at a fixed price point - 10,12, 15 billion dollars. How the heck can one calculate value between an F16 & Gripen which might be around $10 billion or a SH around $12-13 billion with a Rafale or EF which probably cost around $18-20 billion at the very least? Saying that EF & Rafale are the most technically equipped is silly because at that cost difference, they better be. There is no way to put a value on the advantages that each aircraft brings versus the cost of that particular advantage. Selecting between EF & Rafale was always going to be between tweedledum & tweedledee.

If this deals falls through, we might just be lucky.


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## Abingdonboy

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Agent_47 said:


> If these reports are true,
> only solution without hurting IAFs operational needs is to decrease the number to an extend to which enough ToT and industrial experience can be absorbed.
> my bet would be minus two sqd. 126 - 36 =90
> @sancho @Abingdonboy


This is all conjecture, before I get into full rant and impair mode as these reports with little credibility have got me in the past I'm going to wait until the end of March/early April. I'm not buying anything the Indian media is trying to sell when we have seen their cr@ppy standard of journalism in the past and I don't think its too cynical to think that some of these guys writing on the MMRCA are being paid by certain vested intreats to do so and they expect us to believe it by citing "unnamed sources"??

It's funny how the closer it looks like we are getting to the signing of this deal the more noise these clowns make (the same was true last year when there seemed to be forward movement on this deal, then we started to hear about the enormous $22-30+ Billion USD cost of this deal, that was subsequently refuted by both sides, remember that? 



One thing is for sure, if the Rafale is not ordered there are no easy options, the Rafale was by far the best plane and the best deal, the F-18,MiG-35, EFT or more MKIs and LCAs all come with significant drawbacks and would not be as preferable as this Rafale deal.


But like I said, let's wait for the officials from both sides to comment, f*ck these Indian "journalists".



Bang Galore said:


> Rafale or EF which probably cost around $18-20 billion


Both sides have pegged the Rafale deal around the $13-16 Billion mark in the past 8 months so I'd refute this.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/567243833709056000

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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> If these reports are true,
> only solution without hurting IAFs operational needs is to decrease the number to an extend to which enough ToT and industrial experience can be absorbed.
> my bet would be minus two sqd. 126 - 36 =90



First of all, it's just another Ajay Shukla report based on unnamed sources and a lot of speculations. Secondly, why should we reduce the number of fighters? It would increase the costs of MMRCAs, would reduce the industrial advantage and would require to add 2 squads of another fighter, since the requirement still is 126 fighters.

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## kaykay

sancho said:


> First of all, it's just another Ajay Shukla report based on unnamed sources and a lot of speculations. Secondly, why should we reduce the number of fighters? It would increase the costs of MMRCAs, would reduce the industrial advantage and would require to add 2 squads of another fighter, since the requirement still is 126 fighters.


What options do you see if Rafale deal falls flat? I mean realistic options.


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## sancho

kaykay said:


> What options do you see if Rafale deal falls flat? I mean realistic options.



1) EF - the only MMRCA that fulfills the requirements of the tender and the only choice to get the industrial advantages we want
2) additional upgraded MKIs directly from IRKUT, fast to induct and to operate, but no technical or industrial advantages similar to MMRCA
3) Early Pak Fa's, directly from Russia (similar to the Su30K orders back in 1998), adds crucial capabilities and counters the falling squad number on paper, but will take time till IAF can operate it with confidence, doesn't offer industrial advantages similar to MMRCA and would be too costly to operate in basic roles, envisioned for LCA / MMRCA
4) additional LCA MK1 FOC, no technical or industrial advantages similar to MMRCA and only possible if MK2 development is delayed, otherwise the production timelines of MK1 and MK2 would interfere

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## Bang Galore

Abingdonboy said:


> -
> Both sides have pegged the Rafale deal around the $13-16 Billion mark in the past 8 months so I'd refute this.



Where?


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## Abingdonboy

Bang Galore said:


> Where?


Eric Trappier's remarks last year and this was the (reported) figure ($15-15 Billion) that the MoD told, then, Defence Minister Arun Jaitley last year to which he was satisfied.


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## Bang Galore

Abingdonboy said:


> Eric Trappier's remarks last year and this was the (reported) figure ($15-15 Billion) that the MoD told, then, Defence Minister Arun Jaitley last year to which he was satisfied.




Any link? Would be interested.


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## Abingdonboy

Bang Galore said:


> Any link? Would be interested.


I've dug these links up a few times in the past 7-8 months sir but I'll surely do so for you a little later on, first I have to go to a lecture


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## Agent_47

sancho said:


> why should we reduce the number of fighters? It would increase the costs of MMRCAs, would reduce the industrial advantage and would require to add 2 squads of another fighter, since the requirement still is 126 fighters.


If Brazil can buy 30 odd Gripen and make industrial advantages, im sure we can do with 90.
This is a huge order and way above to get numbers play significant role in the per cost ratio.
What i am saying is to find a balance b/w ToT,Industrial advantage,numbers and cost without messing up with rules and costs.



Abingdonboy said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This is all conjecture, before I get into full rant and impair mode as these reports with little credibility have got me in the past I'm going to wait until the end of March/early April. I'm not buying anything the Indian media is trying to sell when we have seen their cr@ppy standard of journalism in the past and I don't think its too cynical to think that some of these guys writing on the MMRCA are being paid by certain vested intreats to do so and they expect us to believe it by citing "unnamed sources"??
> 
> It's funny how the closer it looks like we are getting to the signing of this deal the more noise these clowns make (the same was true last year when there seemed to be forward movement on this deal, then we started to hear about the enormous $22-30+ Billion USD cost of this deal, that was subsequently refuted by both sides, remember that?
> 
> 
> 
> One thing is for sure, if the Rafale is not ordered there are no easy options, the Rafale was by far the best plane and the best deal, the F-18,MiG-35, EFT or more MKIs and LCAs all come with significant drawbacks and would not be as preferable as this Rafale deal.
> 
> 
> But like I said, let's wait for the officials from both sides to comment, f*ck these Indian "journalists".


Yes it is conjecture, the whole report is conjecture.
When considering DM earlier statements,reports on PC-7 BT,earlier admissions of problems with LCC,New government There is a possibility that it can be true and the whole deal could be trashed.

On cost,Take a look at Egypt and Brazil deals (gripen).Per A/c cost would be around $120 million.
So,Total cost would be definitely above $16 billion.
On top of that IAF have so many backlog of orders to fullfill.



Bang Galore said:


> No fan of the EF proposal either but if Rafale is not L1, it would normally mean EF is. However this deal has been structured so badly as to be unbelievable. We should have asked for the best offers at a fixed price point - 10,12, 15 billion dollars. How the heck can one calculate value between an F16 & Gripen which might be around $10 billion or a SH around $12-13 billion with a Rafale or EF which probably cost around $18-20 billion at the very least? Saying that EF & Rafale are the most technically equipped is silly because at that cost difference, they better be. There is no way to put a value on the advantages that each aircraft brings versus the cost of that particular advantage. Selecting between EF & Rafale was always going to be between tweedledum & tweedledee.
> 
> If this deals falls through, we might just be lucky.


Western planes are costly, but they are best money can buy. American are less costly because they have huge advantage on numbers.


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## Abingdonboy

Agent_47 said:


> On cost,Take a look at Egypt and Brazil deals (gripen).Per A/c cost would be around $120 million.
> So,Total cost would be definitely above $16 billion.


The Egypt deal is not representative because the unit costs have not been announced and the deal was tied to the FREMM frigates alongside training,spares, weapons and such.



Agent_47 said:


> When considering DM earlier statements,reports on PC-7 BT,earlier admissions of problems with LCC,New government There is a possibility that it can be true and the whole deal could be trashed.




Nothing has come of the PC-7 BTT issue, in fact the IAF is pushing for a follow on 100+ units so let's hold off on that also. The Indian media love to muddy the waters but NEVER clarify nor follow up on their slanderous reports preventing a clear picture from emerging.


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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> If Brazil can buy 30 odd Gripen and make industrial advantages, im sure we can do with 90.



First of all, the Brazilan order was always based on the fact that they have up to 120 fighters to replace and is not limited to the initial order of 36. Secondly, the industrial advantages Saab promised, needs to be seen, the first reports after the deal was fixed already showed something different, with only 8 Gripens or so be fully produced in Brazil. Not to mention that the biggest industrial advantage for Brazil comes by the fact that they can invest into the Gripen development, since they not only upgrade it with own displays, avionics and weapons, but also jointly develop the twin seater and the naval version (same industrial parts as we have in FGFA development!), while the ToT of critical techs is highly limited, since radar, IRST, larger parts of the EW and the engine are not of Swedish origin and therefor can only be shared with foreign government approval.
In MMRCA we aimed on more critical techs, than just the ammount of ToT, that's why US vendors complied to ToT requirements by providing 50% ToT of airframe and partially engine parts, while European or Russian vendors could provide AESA radar, avionics, TVC or critical engine techs. However, us demanding so much, is based on the minimum order of 126 fighters, if we go back from that, we also have to reduce our demands on ToT and offsets and that would be counter productive, especially at this stage. It's either take one of the 2 MMRCAs, or go for a fast alternative, in the worst case scenario.

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## Abingdonboy

i post anyway 

INTERVIEW OF CEO Eric TRAPPIER, Les ECHOS, Feb 16

What diffence does this contract make for Dassault ?
It makes big differences. There was a great expectation among employees, the general public and the media to understand why this plane was not sold for export. Is it too expensive? other reasons? Are we handling it badly ? Since we did the first time, these questions are tossed out the door. But we had confidence because we know that the Rafale is excellent and cheaper than most of its competitors, contrary to some misconceptions.

Does it help you to keep one foot in the military [business]?
That is undeniable. If we stop the military, then we will be only in civil aviation, and would be forced to go to the other side of the Atlantic[1]. It is very difficult to be competitive with our US competitors while remaining in France. When we can rely on a dual activity of civil-military type, we can optimize our investment in infrastructure, tools and industrial processes. We can keep a correct industrial equation. Thus, the Rafale is entirely made in France and our Falcon are 80% made in france. This contract export with Egypt in addition to the French contract means the perpetuation of the dual model of Dassault and its implementation in France. For us and our major partners, Safran and Thales, and 500 companies of the Rafale program.


Did the Egyptians evaluated other options?
When I saw President Al Sissi, I wanted to explain the qualities of the Rafale, he stopped me right away. He said, "I know this is a great airplane. I want to buy it, let's negotiate".[...]


In what extent can this help you to sign other contracts?
Having recorded a first reference will not trigger other contracts in the sense that countries were waiting this , but there is a psychological barrier that is now crossed. Concerning our image, it'll help to overcome some hurdles in other countries.


As in India?
India is not necessarily looking at what is happening in Egypt , but she hear and sees it.


There is a problem about industrial liability with HAL, the local partner for the manufacture of aircraft, it is soluble?
We have no problem. There is a tender in which we complied. We were asked to agree with HAL, we agreed with HAL. We were asked to share the work with HAL, we shared the work with HAL. We were asked to have a single contract, while the tender did not require it. We have provided a single contract. We believe we are in compliance in all areas. Now the ball is in the Indian camp.

The dividing line is clear?
Everyone is responsible for what he does. We are responsible for organizing the program, that is to say, to provide the license and as such, to provide the tools, documentation, technical assistance, training, we check quality standards . After ... the one who takes the hammer and taps on the sheet metal will be Indian. If he fails, he will be responsible, it' normal.


So no lock, as claimed by the Indian media?
Not seen from our window. There were questions and discussions. This is an ongoing discussion. We solved what is the responsibility of the Air Force. We solved what is the responsibility of HAL. Now, we are reviewing the contract with the Indian Ministry of Defence. For each clause, everyone looks at who is responsible for what. In India, the timing is still a bit long. We are not particularly worried.


Does Qatar really need the Rafale?
Yes, Qatar needs to buy fighter jets like other countries of the region. It is a volatile region in which it is necessary to have air defense , ground attack and reconnaissance capabilities to be able to act autonomously in a coalition. Qatar has launched a call for proposals. We made good progress. It is now up to them to decide.


Approximately 300 Mirage 2000 were exported. Is it the same potential for the Rafale ?
It's less if we take into account the capabilities of the Rafale compared to the Mirage 2000. Now, if we sell 126 Rafale in India with 63 options, we ll be close close to 200 copies. India will be a strong sizing of the success of the Rafale export . The Egyptian contract serves as a primer, as it was the case for the Mirage 2000.

From:
http://www.lesechos.fr/journal201502...ce-1093506.php

Courtesy olybrius at MP.net



@sancho @SpArK @janon 

Now this is some interview. It doesn't seem like there is a whole lot holding back this deal now.....

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## Abingdonboy

Couple that with what MoS for Defence Inderjit Singh has said:

Default
Services on board on Chief of Defence Staff, says MoS Defence

[...]
Responding to a question on the multi-billion dollar Rafale fighter jet contract with France, Singh* said: "....out of 126 odd aircraft, 18 are to be delivered by them and the balances are to be manufactured here."
"The ones that are made here, it has to be with the help from original equipment manufacturer -- Dassault. Dassault must ensure that what is being produced in India is also of standard and as good as theirs."
He said "Now that it is some thing, I think that we would expect them to help out in; ...they are working it out, there are no issues, the logistics of the problem are being worked out, that's all."
Singh said "they have to help us in producing the same product of the same standard as the one they supplied to us when we imported... there should be no compromise on this..."
As per the RFP issued in 2007, the first 18 jets are to be imported and the rest 108 manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

From:
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/...nce-staff.html

Again, curtesy olybrius 


Broadly in line with what we have been hearing BUT that he points out there are no major deadlocks simply the need to work out the "logistics" is key. 

Two people in the know (unlike ANY indian defence journo claiming to have the "inside scoop"). 


It's funny @janon how these officials consistently contradict these defence journalists and then you wonder why we have trouble taking them at their word.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Now, we are reviewing the contract with the Indian Ministry of Defence.
> 
> It doesn't seem like there is a whole lot holding back this deal now.....



Well he is just stating his point of view, but the above point is the critical one, where Dassault is not agreeing to the performance clause.



Abingdonboy said:


> Couple that with what MoS for Defence Inderjit Singh has said:



Link doesn't work, can you correct that please?


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Link doesn't work, can you correct that please?


How's that sir?



sancho said:


> Well he is just stating his point of view, but the above point is the critical one, where Dassault is not agreeing to the performance clause.



Well more accurately reflecting the opinion of Dassualt But I'm more willing to belive his optimism on the deal than anything "unnamed sources" are alleged to say in the indian media. 

I don't think anyone in his postion would make such comments lightly.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> How's that sir?



Says:* 403 Forbidden*




Abingdonboy said:


> Well more accurately reflecting the opinion of Dassualt But I'm more willing to belive his optimism on the deal than anything "unnamed sources" are alleged to say in the indian media.



True, but the critical issue is that his statement must comply to Parrikars statements and other than, playing the ball back to India, there is nothing that suggest an improved situation. Infact:



> After ... the one who takes the hammer and taps on the sheet metal will be Indian. If he fails, he will be responsible, it' normal.



Remains to sound as, we only take responsibility for the first 18.


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## sancho

> *In France, Relief Over Rafale Sale to Egypt*
> 
> France appears to have won precious time on the Rafale program, with Egypt buying the twinjet fighters in an arms package worth €5.2 billion (US $5.9 billion), relieving domestic budgetary pressure.
> Egypt has decided to buy 24 Rafale fighter jets and a multimission frigate, with a contract signing to be held in Cairo on Feb. 16, President François Hollande said in a Feb. 12 statement.
> 
> A big question on the deal is, who pays for the weapons, asked defense specialist Pierre Conesa. Has France or Saudi Arabia provided loans or underwritten the financing, he asked, noting the lack of details on the financing of the package.
> 
> The Egyptian economy has been under pressure for three years amid deep social unrest and a sharp fall in tourism. Human rights issues and the Army's ejection of the government have raised concerns overseas...



In France, Relief Over Rafale Sale to Egypt


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## PARIKRAMA

You want speculation and how one article from Ajai (broadsword) is being taken up by supporters/speculators. I am pasting how russian media is spinning this.. see below

*India will not buy Rafale jets from France due to high prices - media*

India will not be buying French Rafale fighter jets due to their high prices, the Monday edition of Business Standard reported, citing sources in the Indian Ministry of Defense.

Earlier, Indian media reported that the Ministry of Defense of India might refuse to purchase 126 fighters for its Air Force from Rafale, which won the tender in 2012, and instead buy the Russian Su-30MKI.

According to the Business Standard, three years of negotiations between representatives of Rafale and the Ministry of Defense of India revealed that the proposal submitted by the Dassault Company was more expensive than that of its tender competitor – the Eurofighter Typhoon, and not cheaper, as the Ministry of Defense initially announced on January 31, 2012.

“No representative of the Ministry of Defense can approve a contract with Dassault, which will now surpass $20 billion, seeing that the Rafale is now the most inexpensive option,” said an official close to the committee negotiating the contract terms.

According to the publication, the tender for the purchase of 126 medium multi-role fighters was the first time that the Indian Ministry of Defense has calculated the lifecycle cost of the aircraft, rather than just the purchase price. This meant that the winner of the tender was to be the fighter jet with the lowest overall costs in terms of purchase price, operation, and maintenance during the entire 30-40 years of the aircraft’s service life, rather than just the lowest initial price.

“The Ministry of Defense, in considering the incomplete conceptual design project from Dassault, incorrectly judged the Rafale as being the cheaper option. Now, three years later, when we finally received the clear figures from the French, we discovered that India would be spending significantly more than was originally supposed,” said the publication’s source.

Meanwhile, Indian media are writing that the Indian defense establishment is now seriously thinking about dropping the French fighter jet in favor of the better Russian Su-30MKI, which Indian pilots are familiar with, and which is being assembled under license at an Indian company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar also noted the fact that the Su-30MKI meets the requirements of the Indian Air Force. However, the defense establishment has not officially confirmed that it is considering replacing the Rafale with the Su-30MKI.

India will not buy Rafale jets from France due to high prices - media | Russia & India Report

*India Scraps Rafale Fighter Deal With France, Eyes Russian Alternative*


India has scrapped a deal with France to buy 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), after three years of negotiations, due to the high cost of the project.

India has announced that a deal to buy 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) from French manufacturer Dassault Aviation is “effectively dead”.


The reason is the announced high cost of the overall project, according to the country’s online newspaper Business Standard.

The global tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) was the first time the Indian Ministry of Defense (MoD) had awarded a contract based on life cycle costing (LCC). This meant the winner of the tender would not be the fighter with the cheapest purchase price; instead the chosen fighter would be the one that was the cheapest to buy, fly, maintain and overhaul over its 30-40 year service life.

As per the original tender, eighteen of the 126 planes were supposed to be purchased directly from Dassault, while Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was due to manufacture the other 108 under license at a to-be-built facility in the city of Bangalore.

Dassault Aviation has refused to take full responsibility for these 108 fighters to be manufactured in India, which automatically increased the overall cost of the whole project.


Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has recently said that Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters, which had been built by Hindustan Aeronautics at its Nashik plant, could be substituted for them, according to the website IndiaSpend.

The Sukhoi-30 MKI is currently India’s most advanced fighter and forms the backbone of its air force. It’s also half the current cost of a Rafale.

The Indian Air Force first signed a deal with the Russian government to purchase eight air defense Su-30K and 32 multi-role Su-30 MK aircraft in 1996. IAF bought an additional 10 Su-30 MKs in December 1998.

India Scraps Rafale Fighter Deal With France, Eyes Russian Alternative / Sputnik International



One article from "Un-named sources from MOD" and all hell breaks loose... Let Rafale lose out but pls for that let MOD or DM say that instead of such a article. The immaturity is appalling.


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## PARIKRAMA

What do you think of this?

Rafale proposal 'effectively dead' as Dassault bid not cheapest

Rafale proposal 'effectively dead' as Dassault bid not cheapest | Business Standard News

Any truth in this?

February 16, 2015 at 7:18 AM






Prasun K. Sengupta said...
That's the cheapest form of yellow journalism. No one in the history of aviation has ever submitted a 'sketchy commercial bid' in response to a highly detailed RFQ document containing reams of forms to be filled up for technical evaluations & price evaluations. Indicative price-levels are never ever presented by anyone, rest assured.


PKS seems to have answered this query by someone already
So a rebuttal.. hmmmmm
Yellow journalism...
*Yellow journalism*, or the *yellow press*, is a type of*journalism* that presents little or no legitimate well-researched news and instead uses eye-catching headlines to sell more newspapers. Techniques may include exaggerations of news events, scandal-mongering, or sensationalism.
hmmmmmmm.....


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## Johny D

delay has already killed the interest and now high cost just added up to that killing the whole project itself!

I must say, French are very greedy/adamant and Indians do not know what they want, when they want it and how much they actually want to spend on that!


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## Abingdonboy

Look at the turncoat Ajai Shukla, where is his criticism here?

If anything he is making a case for the Rafale, and his screen saver is just priceless:






He really is just looking for his next pay check and will write whatever he is told to write.

Le 20 heures du 16 février 2015 - Le journal de 20h - Replay

Watch from 17.25

Curtesy Olybrius

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## Sri

May not be completely true but what Prasun writes makes sense.
TRISHUL: Compounded Irrationalities Due To Systematic Stupidity-1

*Compounded Irrationalities Due To Systematic Stupidity-1*


As the saying goes, “Those who know much, talk little”. But its meaning seems to have been lost on India’s new Raksha Mantri (Defence Minister) Manohar Parrikar, if we are to believe what he was reported to have said at an on-the-record press conference on December 30, 2014 regarding the procurement of 189 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (M-MRCA). Most of the ‘desi’ newspapers attributed two statements to Parrikar: *(1)* additional licence-built Su-30MKIs are adequate for the IAF in case it is decided not to procure the Rafale; and *(2)* The Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force’s needs. Now, while it is understandable for a select group of ‘desi’ journalists to deliberately twist-and-turn the Raksha Mantri’s statements/observations (since for the past 18 months they have either been promoting, for their own vested financial interests, the procurement of either the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter or the Eurofighter EF-2000), in case these ‘desi’ journalists for once did get it right and correctly quoted the Raksha Mantri, then India is indeed in some serious trouble.

Let me explain how and why. Neither the Su-30MKI nor the MiG-29UPG/MiG-29K were ever designed as multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA). Their design and performance parameters were instead optimised for air dominance/air superiority, with standoff all-weather precision strike undertaken from medium altitudes being a secondary capability. It is for this reason that the erstwhile USSR had developed the Su-24 and Su-27IB/Su-34 as all-weather, terrain-hugging deep penetration strike aircraft (DPSA), and the Su-25 as a dedicated tactical strike/close air support aircraft. Consequently, neither the Su-30MKI’s nor the MiG-29UPG’s/MiG-29K’s airframes have the stress tolerances that are required for flying terrain-hugging flight profiles. Their existing X-band multi-mode radars or MMR (RLSU-30MK NO-11M ‘Bars’ and the Zhuk-M2E) therefore don’t come with low-altitude terrain avoidance mode or automatic terrain-following capability or weather-mapping mode, and neither are they equipped with low-altitude navigation pods.



Consequently, the only true M-MRCAs that are operational today in an area between India and Japan is the Republic of Singapore Air Force’s Boeing-built F-15SGs, which come equipped with Raytheon-supplied APG-63(V)3 AESA-MMR, Boeing/ELBIT Systems joint helmet mounted cueing system (JHMCS), TIGER Eyes Sensor Suite comprising Lockheed Martin’s AAQ-13 LANTIRN-ER navigation pod (containing a mid-wave staring-array FLIR sensor and aterrain-following radar and forward-looking infra-red sensor), an AAQ-33 Sniper XR targetting pod containing a mid-wave staring-array FLIR sensor with a 40,000-feet laser and charge-couple device (CCD) TV, and the AAS-43 infra-red search-and-track (IRST) system containing a passive long-wave IR sensor. 
Simply put, therefore, the IAF is in dire need of procuring an M-MRCA fleet with automatic terrain-following capability—which the Rafale is optimised for. Presently, the IAF operates 3 MiG-29B-12 squadrons (now being upgraded to MiG-29UPG standard), 9 MiG-21 Bison squadrons, 4 Jaguar IS squadrons, 1 Jaguar IM squadron, 10 Su-30MKI squadrons, 3 Mirage 2000H/TH squadrons (being upgraded to Mirage 2000UPG standard), 3 MiG-27UPG squadrons, and 2 MiG-27M squadrons, making a total of 35 squadrons. Although the sanctioned strength of the IAF is 42 combat aircraft squadrons (which is due for increase to 50 squadrons by 2024, at least on paper), of these, those equipped with MiG-21 Bisons, MiG-27UPGs and MiG-27Ms will have to be decommissioned by 2017 at the latest.



Presently, the IAF is gearing up to form the first ‘Tejas’ Mk1 squadron—No45 ‘Flying Daggers’ Sqn—which will initially be first raised in Bengaluru before relocating to Sulur in Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu, this March. Present plans call for the first four IOC-standard) Tejas Mk1 MRCAs built by the MoD-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to be delivered by March 31, 2015, another six by March 31, 2016, and another eight by March 31, 2017. This squadron will, however, be declared fully operational only in 2022, once its 18 Tejas Mk1s are upgraded to FOC standard. The second Tejas Mk1-equipped squadron, comprising 20 FOC-standard MRCAs, will be formed up in 2017 and will become fully operational by March 31, 2020. All Tejas Mkls will be equipped with Israel Aerospace Industries/ELTA Systems-supplied EL/M-2032 MMRs, which will possess both automatic terrain-followingand weather mapping modes of operation. 



Going by calculations based on universal norms, I have estimated the flyaway unit cost of procuring 40 Tejas Mk1s as being US$52 million. To this must be added the cost of air base customisation and procurement of weapons packages, all of which works to out about US$72 million per aircraft. 

Meanwhile, to replace the MiG-27UPGs and MiG-27Ms, 68 Jaguar IS aircraft are presently being upgraded to DARIN 3-standard so that they can undertake all-weather tactical strike/close air support operations. This Rs.31.3 billion (US$0.57 billion) contract was awarded to HAL in March 2008 and is due for completion by December 2017. The upgraded Jaguar IS too will have on board the EL/M-2032 MMRs possessing both automatic terrain-following and weather mapping modes of operation. 

From the above, it becomes clear that the IAF is now in desperate need of M-MRCAs with credible deep penetration strike capabilities and capable of flying terrain-hugging profiles. It is also well-known that the IAF wants to arrest the steady decline of its frontline combat aircraft inventory ASAP. The only available options—all non-negotiable—are as follows:



*1)* Ink the procurement contract for 189 Rafales latest by June 2015.



*2)* Increase the size of the Su-30MKI fleet to no less than 350 by procuring the first 50 Super Su-30MKIs in semi-knocked-down condition from Russia’s IRKUT Corp, starting 2017, while concurrently commencing the upgrading of in-service Su-30MKIs in successive tranches to Super Sukhoi-standard.

*3)* Increase the quantum of Jaguar IS being upgraded to DARIN 3-stadard from 68 to 125 and re-engine the entire fleet with Honeywell-supplied F-125 turbofans. 



Now a brief explanation on why the Rafale M-MRCA procurement’s contract signature has been subjected to delays. Firstly, there was the financial crunch over the past two years. Secondly, the Union Ministry for Home Affairs had in 2012 issued mandatory industrial security-related regulations that called for comprehensive vetting (a most time-consuming process) of all technical and managerial personnel of those India-based Tier-1, Tier-2 and Tier-3 companies that were selected for the licence-manufacturing/licenced-assembly components of the Rafale M-MRCA. Thirdly, since French aerospace OEMs have always made use of France-origin precision machining, riveting and welding equipment and related test-benches, this time too they insisted that HAL and its sub-contractors procure all such hardware exclusively from French OEMs, instead of issuing global tenders for such industrial hardware procurements. Had HAL not agreed to comply with this key issue, all the involved French OEMs would have been unable to issue certificates of airworthiness for all those Rafales licence-built by HAL. It is this issue that has been most time-consuming and in the end, HAL had no other choice but to give-in.



Posted by Prasun K. Sengupta at 4:58 AM 
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## rockstarIN

Go for early pak fa. Heck with the medium fight jet concept since it comes with low rcs. All ground attack can be handled by lca. And mki (long range). Im sure the cost will be less than rafale. And commonality with the future fgfa. lca to be mass produced injecting more money.


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## possumlot

Prasun makes one very good point, 

Dassault is looking to cash in on the Certification by insisting that HAL buy their OEM's at exorbitant prices. HAL OTOH wants to go by Industry best practices which calls for buying these equipments via a global tender. 

Since these standards are global and international, in reality Dassault should have no problem in certifying the airworthiness of aricrafts built on these machines. 

HAL is wise to stick to their stand and refused to be bullied by Dassault and be taken for a ride.


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## Stephen Cohen

Induction of Rafale will take time

The minister said negotiations over pricing and the role of HAL in inducting the French fighter aircraft, Rafale, was taking time and causing delay in going ahead with the procurement of the aircraft which has won the bid. “There are some issues with regard to HAL’s role. Will Dassault, the company that manufactures Rafale, give guarantee to HAL on the 108 aircraft that will be produced by HAL? What HAL makes should be the same as what Dassault makes. So, whether Dassault takes responsibility for the aircraft that are not directly imported but made by HAL is what we are discussing. Pricing is also an issue.* We haven’t given up and we’ll be looking forward to breaking ground soon,” Singh said.*


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## CONNAN

Different source


*Dassault may abandon $20-bn MMRCA deal*

Dassault Aviation, maker of Rafale fighter jet which is in exclusive negotiations with the ministry of defence for close to three years now for the $ 20-billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, may have to abandon the plan over lingering issues.

This is despite the fact that bagging the MMRCA tender, which envisages purchase of 126 aircraft with an option for buying 63 more, is critical for Dassault. Contrary to initial expectations of a quick contract signature, Dassault-MoD negotiations have dragged for over two years.

As reported by FE earlier, cost has been an issue since the start besides the company’s reluctance to transfer sophisticated technology to India and meet offsets requirements. In the last few months, questions have been raised by Dassault regarding the role of HAL in the MMRCA.

Moreover, the French company is unwilling to be held liable for the quality, timely and on-cost delivery of the 108 aircraft to be license produced at HAL. This is in breach of tender conditions and has emerged as a major threat to speedy contract conclusion.

*Highly placed sources disclosed to FE that after being declared as L1, the French company was very much aware that as per the RFP it had responded to, “state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics was the designated production agency.” The French company had offered 22% work share for HAL at the initial stage of negotiations, as its response to the RFP was influenced by a planned partnership with Reliance Industries, that planned to expand into aerospace and defence in 2011.*

Talking to FE, Air Marshal (retd) M Matheswaran, senior adviser to HAL’s management, said: “Guaranteeing HAL’s work is not the issue, but that the French are being “rigid” and refusing to stand behind the integrity of the design.”

*Matheswaran, who was involved in drafting the original RFP for the deal, added: “Unfortunately, the French don’t want to be accountable in any way. However, the original equipment manufacturer has to stand guarantee with respect to design and integrity of design. By constantly denying to take responsibility for production of the 108 aircraft at HAL, the French are trying to get away from the OEM’s responsibility.” Also, it is about technology transfer, which the French are loath to do.*


Dassault may abandon $20-bn MMRCA deal | The Financial Express

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## sancho

> *Egypt, the order for 24 Rafale is signed *
> 
> Key points :
> 
> 
> 24 Rafale ordered : 16 Rafale B (two seater) and 8 Rafale C (single seater)
> A first batch of 3 Rafale B to be delivered before July
> A second batch of 3 Rafale delivered in 2016 and *then probably 6 aircrafts delivered each year until 2019*
> Air to ground weapons : AASM missiles, Black Shaheen (export version of the scalp) cruise missiles,
> Air to Air weapons : Mica EM and Mica IR Air to Air missiles
> Reconnaissance : Reco-NG pod (according to "Secret Defense" blog)
> *About €3 billion for the aircrafts*, their equipments and pilots training
> About €1.1 billion for the weapons



Rafale News: Egypt, the order for 24 Rafale is signed


*Production* - if the above is true, Dassault needs a production of 17 Rafales in 2017, to supply Egypt with 6 and India with 18 fighters (6 from the 2016 production)

*Cost* - if the above is true, Egypt pays $142 millions system-cost for each Rafale, but since they are basically diverted from French orders, mainly are twin seaters and in lower numbers, the cost for India per unit should be lower. But even if we assume the same price => $142 x 126 fighters =* $17.892 billion*

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## flamer84

sancho said:


> Rafale News: Egypt, the order for 24 Rafale is signed
> 
> 
> *Production* - if the above is true, Dassault needs a production of 17 Rafales in 2017, to supply Egypt with 6 and India with 18 fighters (6 from the 2016 production)
> 
> *Cost* - if the above is true, Egypt pays $142 millions system-cost for each Rafale, but since they are basically diverted from French orders, mainly are twin seaters and in lower numbers, the cost for India per unit should be lower. But even if we assume the same price => $142 x 126 fighters =* $17.892 billion*




The price could go further down given that it's cheaper to build them in India and greater numbers usually mean lower prices.It's realistical to see the contract somewhere in the 16-17 billion $ figure ,i think.

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## anant_s

*We will only accept the best Rafales: Minister*

*Bengaluru, Feb 16: The Union Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh said on Monday that India would only accept best Rafales fighters, but refused to put a timeline as to when the deal would finally come out of the ‘foggy weather.'

To a specific question from OneIndia, posed on the sidelines of the inauguration of Aero India International Seminar (Aerospace: Vision 2020), at the NIMHANS Convention Centre in Bengaluru, the minister made it categorical that the government would insist on the full transfer of technology from Dassault, the makers of Rafale.









"We would like to have the 'same standard' of what is being produced in France," the minister said. He said efforts are on to thrash out the ‘pending concerns,' which according to him cannot be termed as ‘issues.' He refused to comment when asked whether one of the concerns were that of the ‘build standards' of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

As per the deal, first 18 Rafales would be built in France and the remaining 108 be produced in India. "There are no issues. When we make the aircraft at HAL they (Dassault) will have to be of the same standard manufactured by the OEM," the minister said.

He said the government was keen to give the Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots best flying machines. "Our capability of assembling these fighters may not be as good as the OEM (Rafale). But they should help HAL bring out machines matching what they make in France," Singh said. He admitted that the OEMs exporting defence equipment to India, might not part with their best technology so easily.

He said there could be some price escalation, but refused to go into the details. "Not everything can be discussed in public," he said.

To another query whether Dassault is keen to undertake the India part of manufacturing the Rafales with another company (other than HAL), the minister said the DPSU has the expertise in making modern fighters.

"HAL will continue to be the strategic production line for the aircraft as inducting another company will be difficult," he said.
http://www.oneindia.com/india/we-will-only-accept-the-best-rafales-minister-aerospace-defence-1656029.html*


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## MokshaVimukthi

flamer84 said:


> The price could go further down given that it's cheaper to build them in India and greater numbers usually mean lower prices.It's realistical to see the contract somewhere in the 16-17 billion $ figure ,i think.



That may be the price IAF pays, not the price GoI pays. 

What will be the cost for HAL re-Tooling and setting p the process as per Dassault ? ........ couple of more Billion$ ? at least. 

What about cost for simulators for training, support equipments, Test Jigs, LRU's etc ? 

It would be in excess of 20 Billion $ easily.


----------



## PARIKRAMA

*DM: Decision on Rafale on March 2015, awaiting CNC report*

*DM: Decision on Rafale on March 2015, awaiting CNC report*

New Delhi: India will decide on the fate of a multi-billion-dollar deal to buy Rafale fighter jets from Dassault Aviation of France by early March, after the contract negotiation committee (CNC) submits its report, defence minister Manohar Parrikar said on Wednesday. Price negotiations have dragged on since 2012, when Rafale won a tender to supply 126 fighter planes for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

“I would not be able to comment on it till CNC gives me a detailed report,” Parrikar said in reply to a question. *“I have told them to submit it by March... last week of February or first week of March.”*

The committee is reviewing the long-term costs, called the life cycle costs, which will be incurred over the life of the plane. Parrikar said he has sought an increase in IAF fleet’s operational performance to make up for the gap.

He declined to specify the gap in the fighter jet fleet requirements, calling it a “national security” matter. When asked if the delay is upsetting foreign vendors, he replied with an anecdote, “If you go to a supermarket with your wife, you want to buy everything. Then you see your budget and monthly EMI and you only buy to the extent that is allowed in your budget. I would like to buy many jets, but I can’t spend that kind of money. There are ships, submarines for which commitments have already been made and which will come up for allocation in next year’s budget and we have to keep them,” he said. On the upcoming defence budget, he only said he only hoped that the needs of defence forces are attended to.

Decision on French fighter jet Rafale in March: Manohar Parrikar - Livemint

*Defence Ministry awaiting CNC report to finalise delayed Rafale deal: Parrikar*







Business Standard

*Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today said the Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) is expected to give its final report on acquisition of French fighter plane Rafale either by end of February of early March. The decision is not being dragged by the NDA government, he assured.*

*"I have asked for the report and not received yet. Until the detailed report is submitted, I will not be able to comment on the multi-billion dollar aircraft acquisition deal," Parrikar told reporters at the Aero India 2015, here today.*

When asked about the three-year delay when the country needs modernisation of Indian Air Force and Rafale formed important part of it, he pointed out the NDA government had come to power only ten months ago. "I have asked the CNC to speed up the process of completion of the report. The CNC report is inevitable for the government to make final decision on the deal," he said.

"We are determined to strengthen our defence forces. But, we will also focus on maximising the use of the current availability of war planes. This is also important," he added.

He further added that there was no delay in the finalisation of the deal.

The defence minister also added the government is also in the process of tweaking the defence procurement policy to enable the small and medium sector enterprise get a better deal in the offset clauses. "We are aware of the problems faced by MSME sector. We also know that they can contribute handsomely to defence production and Make in India a bigger success," Parrikar said.

Defence Ministry awaiting CNC report to finalise delayed Rafale deal: Parrikar | Business Standard News

Watch French #Dassault #Rafale in Action coming in Indian Air Force






"AERO INDIA 2015" | Page 9

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## sancho

Not Rafale related, but shows how things work if a foreign vendor actually commit to work with HAL:



> *BAE Systems to debut state-of-the-art tech*
> 
> BAE Systems has been in India for six decades. One of the world’s leading defence, aerospace and security companies, with more than 80,000 employees across six continents, the company makes yet another big presence in this year’s Aero India...
> 
> ...*An HAL partner for decades*
> 
> The company has been a successful partner to India’s HAL, with which it has worked on many innovative projects over the last 60 years. “Our flagship programme in India is our partnership with HAL on the Hawk advanced jet trainer. With 123 Hawk ordered to date, India is the largest operator of the world’s most successful advanced jet training aircraft,” Brosnan said.
> 
> India ordered 66 aircraft in 2004, comprising supply of 24 Hawk aircraft in fly-away condition, and 42 aircraft built under licence by HAL, and a further 57 aircraft in 2010. BAE Systems has commenced contract negotiations with HAL on a potential order to supply products and services for the manufacture of 20 Hawk aircraft in support of the Indian Air Force’s requirement for its aerobatic team.
> 
> In addition to supporting HAL to expedite the Hawk Batch 3 order soon, the company is looking forward to assist HAL deliver future tranches of the Hawk Aircraft as well as supporting the PSU (public sector unit) with the future development of the aircraft and mid-life upgrade, and in providing long-term support to the IAF and the Indian Navy fleet.
> 
> “In addition, BAeHAL, our engineering services joint venture company with HAL, is an important demonstration of our shared commitment to investing in in-country capabilities. Over the years, BAeHAL has progressed well and built up a strong portfolio of clients such as Airbus, Rolls-Royce, British Airways and HAL itself. Very recently, the company won a contract to support Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) in the structural design optimisation of the Medium Altitude, Long Endurance (MALE) UAV,” Brosnan said...



BAE Systems to debut state-of-the-art tech


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## Taygibay

sancho said:


> Not Rafale related, but shows how things work if a foreign vendor actually commit to work with HAL



So by your own admission, thread derailing to further your anti-Dassault slant /drivel?
Even as Dassault execs are in India and the Mindef JYLD coming soon?
Oh, Well, at least you're consistent! Kudos, I guess! 

Tay.


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## sancho

Taygibay said:


> So by your own admission, thread derailing to further your anti-Dassault slant /drivel?
> Even as Dassault execs are in India and the Mindef JYLD coming soon?
> Oh, Well, at least you're consistent! Kudos, I guess!
> 
> Tay.



It's not surprising that you can't see the problem Dassault has caused in this deal, with your obvious bias, but it's evident all over the media these days:

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 20


Sorry, I can't be that ignorant as you are, since I want the best for IAF and my country of course and the wasted time in fixing this deal is simply based silly issues Dassault caused, otherwise the deal could had been fixed well before the elections.

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## MokshaVimukthi

Taygibay said:


> So by your own admission, thread derailing to further your anti-Dassault slant /drivel?
> Even as Dassault execs are in India and the Mindef JYLD coming soon?
> Oh, Well, at least you're consistent! Kudos, I guess!
> 
> Tay.



You Indignation is misguided, as much as your understanding of India. 

Dassault should have closed this deal when the congress was in power. They should have kept their ears closer to the ground and understood what Nationalist parties like BJP was all about, what Modi is all about. They should have planned for the worst case scenario. 

Dassault should have made some compromises and closed this deal rather than drag it and then find someone to blame. 

Like I said before, French are famous for snatching defeat from the mouth of victory. There is no one to blame here or in the future.


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## Stephen Cohen

Taygibay said:


> So by your own admission, thread derailing to further your anti-Dassault slant /drivel?
> Even as Dassault execs are in India and the Mindef JYLD coming soon?
> Oh, Well, at least you're consistent! Kudos, I guess!
> 
> Tay.



You really do not like ANY Praise of your rival BAE is nt it 
even when they are genuinely helping us as this news suggests

Well let us hope Dassault OUT performs all its rivals in its cooperation with India


----------



## PARIKRAMA

*Confident Rafale Will Win $12 Billion Indian Air Force Deal: Dassault Chief to NDTV*

All India | Written by Vishnu Som | Updated: February 18, 2015 18:32 IST

BENGALURU, INDIA: 

The CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, has indicated that he is confident of winning the contract for at least 126 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force in a deal which was initially worth $12 billion or Rs. 74,400 crore and could go up to $20 billion or Rs.124,000 crore.

Speaking to NDTV at Aero India 2015 at the Yelahanka Airbase on the outskirts of Bengaluru, Mr Trappier denied reports that the life-cycle cost of the Rafale was higher than its competitors.

"We are more than confident because it's a commitment that the life cycle cost of the Rafale is entirely in line with what we gave in the answer to the RFP (Request for Proposal) and we are totally compliant with the RFP of the government of India," he said.

Earlier today, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar would not be drawn into making a definitive statement on where the Rafale deal stood. According to Mr Parrikar, "I will not comment until the Contract Negotiating Committee (CNC) gives me a detailed report on what they have dealt with." He expects this report to be made available within a few weeks.

Dassault Rafale, which is the mainstay of the French Air Force and Navy, was selected by the Air Force to meet its requirement for a state of the art multi-role fighter and was placed ahead of the Eurofighter Typhoon (built by a European consortium).

Confident Rafale Will Win $12 Billion Indian Air Force Deal: Dassault Chief to NDTV

@sancho @Abingdonboy @halloweene

initially worth $12 billion or Rs. 74,400 crore and could go up to $20 billion or Rs.124,000 crore.

Does that mean first figure of 12B $ or Rs 74400 cr is for F3 and 124,000 Cr/ 20B$ for F3R?
Strangely the word used is " at least 126" so does it mean above figures are inclusive of follow on orders?

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## Taygibay

sancho said:


> with your obvious bias, but it's evident all over the media these days:



Bias goes both ways, Sancho. I see you as having it and vice-versa, then again do tabulate your number of post with it against mine and you'll see who uses it more, YVW.
I don't consider media as a source. When ( and if ) *a qualified arbitration ( neutral )* using RFP and other official documents finds it to exist, I'll say I'm sorry … but not to please fanboys however.



sancho said:


> Sorry, I can't be that ignorant as you are, since I want the best for IAF and my country of course and the wasted time in fixing this deal is simply based silly issues Dassault caused, otherwise the deal could had been fixed well before the elections.


Insult and unfounded opinion does not validate me as biased, sorry!

Tay


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## Stephen Cohen

@Taygibay Sir 

This long winding Rafale deal has really started to take a toll on 
Both Indian and French defence enthusiasts

Let us hope for an early decision ; to end our misery soon


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## Taygibay

MokshaVimukthi said:


> You Indignation is misguided, as much as your understanding of India.





MokshaVimukthi said:


> Like I said before, French are famous for snatching defeat from the mouth of victory. There is no one to blame here or in the future.


This is illogical : I did not say anything bad against India and you blamed at France, while saying in addition that no one is to blame. Meaningless, sorry!

As for your contention that Dassault should have played the politics and used a possibly more amenable GoI to take advantage of your country, it is immoral and I would not condone it.

Tay.

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## topgun047

Taygibay said:


> This is illogical : I did not say anything bad against India and you blamed at France, while saying in addition that no one is to blame. Meaningless, sorry!
> 
> As for your contention that Dassault should have played the politics and used a possibly more amenable GoI to take advantage of your country, it is immoral and I would not condone it.
> 
> Tay.



All the signs are pointing towards the imminent demise of Rafale deal.
France has got Egypt and other oil rich emirates to supply and and India has got Su-30 for now and FGFA for the future.
Lets call it a day and shake hands.

There was never a pressing need in India to induct a new 4th gen platform when it already had a large Su 30 fleet for high end and Mirage-2k, Mig 29 for low end.
That is, if you discount the falling squadron strength.
Since there are other, more efficient ways to address this problem, as outlined by Mr.Parrikar, this is not the issue in Rafale deal for India.

The MMRCA tender always hinged upon getting adequate benefits for Indian industry.
Since there seems to be no sign of a solution forthcoming to this logjam, it seems inevitable deal will die a natural death.
I suspected as much since 2012.


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## MokshaVimukthi

Taygibay said:


> This is illogical : I did not say anything bad against India and you blamed at France, while saying in addition that no one is to blame. Meaningless, sorry!
> 
> As for your contention that Dassault should have played the politics and used a possibly more amenable GoI to take advantage of your country, it is immoral and I would not condone it.
> 
> Tay.



Don't get me wrong. I admire France for many many reason. I have always believed France is a true friend to India. Just not the smartest strategist around. 

I did not mean it as an insult to France, just an unkind observation with no malafide intent. 

International arms dealing is not exactly a morally sound occupation. Its all about taking advantage of some country or the other. Its silly to pretend otherwise.


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## sancho

Taygibay said:


> Bias goes both ways, Sancho.



Not really, since I still say Rafale as a fighter is the best choice for India, the problem I have is the delay Dassault caused that stopped this deal from being signed and the double standards they showed just to gain more own benefits. So I have no bias against Dassault, but don't ignore their mistakes just because I support the Rafale in the MMRCA.
If you like it or not is nothing that bothers me too much, but I will point to the facts, no matter if pro or con Dassault / Rafale!


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## Taygibay

Stephen Cohen said:


> You really do not like ANY Praise of your rival BAE is nt it
> even when they are genuinely helping us as this news suggests



I'm surprised at this coming from you Stephen as I am that you read that in my message. I have no bug with BAe and I am glad if India gets good treatment from it.
The only problem is that proper performance by it on a given tender has nothing to do with the unsubstantiated rumors on Dassault's part in the MMRCA.

Let me then be clear : I would have no problem with any corporation having won and completed the MMRCA in say 4 months. I even hope that sooner than later India will make its own fighters world best and exports them. But I won't say that the LCA is better than the F-35 ( not a Dassault product but a BAe one ) because it is not true, that's all!

Remember my answer to your query last week? I termed it as incomplete on all things that I could not prove. Not to avoid answering you but to avoid answering you incorrectly. I even added that someone else would have a better answer to offer. If you cannot get it that I rely on facts and not on hearsay, I'll just refuse to answer from now on … because it would be meaningless to do so?

Good day nonetheless, Tay.

@MokshaVimukthi OK, I'll accept that … hoping that if I had said India was known to mess up procurements ( which I did not yet but read countless times on foreign fora ) you'd take it as lightly?
100% agreed on your comment about immorality of arms sales ( Egypt/Raf included up to a point ); I twisted internally at the naiveness of it as I wrote. But one can wish for better practices to spring up eventually says the eternal optimist!

I wrote on my blog about colonialism after having been asked by a fellow forumer. The piece was lauded by people from ex-colonies and snubbed and attacks by my own Western "supposed brothers". I don't feel I have to defend my impartiality on most subjects. I am not racist or anything like that either. 

But you're allowed to see me as you want.
No harsh feelings, Tay.


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## Stephen Cohen

@Taygibay 

You have got it all wrong ; we ALL want the Rafale deal to HAPPEN 

But somehow are unable to appreciate the hardball attitude of Dassault

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## Taygibay

sancho said:


> the problem I have is the delay Dassault caused that stopped this deal from being signed and the double standards they showed just to gain more own benefits. So I have no bias against Dassault, but don't ignore their mistakes



All of which you have no proof, only hearsay and opinion. Had you at least added supposed mistakes by the end …
That is a perfect example of what I consider your bias. And as said you did that over hundreds and possibly thousands of posts in here. I have not reached 120 until this one in answering you since I joined PDF 3 years ago.
QED.

But hey, feel free to repeat again, who knows ... it may become true?


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## MokshaVimukthi

Taygibay said:


> @MokshaVimukthi OK, I'll accept that … hoping that if I had said India was known to mess up procurements ( which I did not yet but read countless times on foreign fora ) you'd take it as lightly?
> 100% agreed on your comment about immorality of arms sales ( Egypt/Raf included up to a point ); I twisted internally at the naiveness of it as I wrote. But one can wish for better practices to spring up eventually says the eternal optimist!
> 
> I wrote on my blog about colonialism after having been asked by a fellow forumer. The piece was lauded by people from ex-colonies and snubbed and attacks by my own Western "supposed brothers". I don't feel I have to defend my impartiality on most subjects. I am not racist or anything like that either.
> 
> But you're allowed to see me as you want.
> No harsh feelings, Tay.



India HAS messed up procurements. That is a fact. I don't take it lightly or heavy. I am impartial to the truth. 

I know you only from the posts on pdf and I do not judge you badly. Your posts are rational enough for me to know you yourself did not believe in the "moral" point. 

But the fact that you DID make that point, tells me about a desire to deceive when possible. What conclusion must one draw from that ?


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## Taygibay

@ Moksha No Moksha, not to deceive, only to point out that such things while omnipresent are still wrong and that I'm more pleased that Dassault did not try to do so as you suggested then if they had. 
Edited to slack this OT chat. 

@ top gun Agreed to your message wholeheartedly, man since you for one did not play one side as lily-white and the other as evil!

@ Stephen I never said you were opposed to the plane? I have only one point in this whole thing : proofs or the absence thereof.
When your MoD Parrikar speaks, I validate that but not a single piece with "unnamed high ranking sources".

If we collect all such excerpts from NAMED Indian & French officials, most of the noise heard since L1 attribution ( heck since MrCA before the second M came in even ) would justify 200 posts, maybe 300.

That's all I'm saying! If anyone sees more, they should discuss it with themselves in front of the mirror.
Ah, if only we'd have been prescient in 2007, we could have opened a thread called "How Taygibay is so strict on sources and anti-Indian that it makes the world a more dangerous place" alas no one thought of it.
What a shame! 

But as this is now more of a thread derailment than Sancho produced, how about have one last answer each to blast me and then stop until we get real stuff to discuss?

Going out, have a great day one and all, Tay.


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## sancho

Taygibay said:


> All of which you have no proof, only hearsay and opinion.



Which is nonsense, since we have plenty statements of Indian officials that state that Dassault deviates from the RFP rules, we have the former DM and IAF chief on record that the RFP says HAL is the lead integrator and that Dassault can't move away from that and that Dassault can only divert other parts of the production to Reliance. We have prove that the DPP 2006 has liability damages and performance clauses and we have plenty of proof on how HAL is working with foreign companies for licence productions and JV, contrary to the claims of Dassault. But as I said, it's not surprising that you can't handle the facts and just say it's hearsay.


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## Taygibay

And yet by now only the CNC has yet to report which points out these things were settled but you are still whining and making comparisons which bright folks know are not reason?
Fine Sancho, all proofs are on the Indian side then and Dassault is the worst interlocutor India ever faced …

In which case, the GoI is the biggest dummy ever for continuing the talks according to your whining.
Sorry, I had to flame by pushing your logic to its conclusion to show it is not.
I'll out of this thread until the decision falls so you can be right all the time.

There are more important matters in India, on PDF and in this world anyway.
Long live the noise.
Tay.


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## Donatello

sancho said:


> Which is nonsense, since we have plenty statements of Indian officials that state that Dassault deviates from the RFP rules, we have the former DM and IAF chief on record that the RFP says HAL is the lead integrator and that Dassault can't move away from that and that Dassault can only divert other parts of the production to Reliance. We have prove that the DPP 2006 has liability damages and performance clauses and we have plenty of proof on how HAL is working with foreign companies for licence productions and JV, contrary to the claims of Dassault. But as I said, it's not surprising that you can't handle the facts and just say it's hearsay.



I am not sure if that is how contracts work....Dassault is providing a product that India wants, and India is paying for it. Now, Even if India mentioned in the tender/RFP rules that HAL will be the lead integrator and Dassault responsible for all HAL made jets as well, the problem arises that It is India that selected Rafale, not Dassault......so Dassault will have their own terms to come to contract. Otherwise, by logic, they should be simply disqualified now, if not when making an invalid bid.


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## Stephen Cohen

Donatello said:


> so Dassault will have their own terms to come to contract. Otherwise, by logic, they should be simply disqualified now, if not when making an invalid bid.



First Dassault promised us the moon and now it is looking to back track

This whole thing needs to come to a conclusion either way

For Indian officals negotiating the deal ; it has been a very tedious journey

Fortunately we have the SU 30 MKI to fall back upon


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## sancho

Donatello said:


> I am not sure if that is how contracts work....Dassault is providing a product that India wants, and India is paying for it. Now, Even if India mentioned in the tender/RFP rules that HAL will be the lead integrator and Dassault responsible for all HAL made jets as well, the problem arises that It is India that selected Rafale, not Dassault......so Dassault will have their own terms to come to contract. Otherwise, by logic, they should be simply disqualified now, if not when making an invalid bid.



Wrong, since Dassault accepted the RFP and DDP rules, by entering the tender, otherwise they wouldn't had been approved to participate in the first place! So they have to stick to our demands and can't deviate from it now, after their product was selected as L1. They now only try to get more benefits for them, by getting more workshare and less responsibility as they initially agreed to. I even don't mind it if they tried it once (back in late 2012), but it's freaking 2015 now and these delays are going on for far too long, for things that were clear since 2007.

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## Agent_47

*Snecma and HAL to create a joint venture and build a new production facility in India*
Aero India, Bangalore (India) – February 18, 2015. Snecma (Safran), a leading manufacturer of aircraft engines, and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), a leading aerospace manufacturer, signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) on January 28, 2015 in Bangalore to explore establishing a joint venture in India for the production of aero-engine parts. The MoU was signed by Mr. Bruno Durand, Vice President for Industrial Operations & Supply Chain of Snecma and Mr. Arunachalam Muthukumaraswami, General Manager of the Engine Division of HAL.

The proposed joint venture will initially focus on the manufacture of high-tech parts for the Dassault Rafale’s Snecma M88 engine, then subsequently contribute to other major aerospace projects of HAL & Snecma, in India and worldwide. Spanning over 30,000 square meters, the proposed joint venture’s new plant is expected to benefit from substantial investment by the two partners, providing it with state-of-the-art machinery and equipment.

This agreement marks a major step forward in the long-standing collaboration between Snecma and HAL. The proposed joint venture will further broaden the scope of the excellent relations established over the past 60 years between Safran affiliates and the Indian aerospace industry*. For example, Snecma manufactures the M53 engines powering the Mirage 2000H "Vajra" fighters operated by the Indian Air Force.

"This new partnership clearly reflects the close relationship established over many years between Snecma, our parent Safran and the Indian aerospace industry," said Pierre Fabre, Chairman and CEO of Snecma. "We are strongly committed to contributing to the ’Make in India’ policy, based on ambitious partnerships and extensive direct investments. This new venture is further proof that we are actively strengthening our existing ties with HAL.”

- See more at: Request Rejected

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## Stephen Cohen

@sancho

The Negotiations for BOTH the Scorpene and Mirage 2000 Upgrades took FIVE years to Complete

I guess it is the French way of doing things


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## MokshaVimukthi

Taygibay said:


> @ Moksha No Moksha, not to deceive, only to point out that such things while omnipresent are still wrong and that I'm more pleased that Dassault did not try to do so as you suggested then if they had.
> Edited to slack this OT chat.



All unofficial comments points to the contrary. That Dassault did try to deceive and that is what caused the road block and left a bad taste with the Negotiators and extreme animosity in HAL.

That is how you loose credibility and make people not to want doing business with you.



Agent_47 said:


> *Snecma and HAL to create a joint venture and build a new production facility in India*
> Aero India, Bangalore (India) – February 18, 2015. Snecma (Safran), a leading manufacturer of aircraft engines, and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), a leading aerospace manufacturer, signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) on January 28, 2015 in Bangalore to explore establishing a joint venture in India for the production of aero-engine parts. The MoU was signed by Mr. Bruno Durand, Vice President for Industrial Operations & Supply Chain of Snecma and Mr. Arunachalam Muthukumaraswami, General Manager of the Engine Division of HAL.
> 
> The proposed joint venture will initially focus on the manufacture of high-tech parts for the Dassault Rafale’s Snecma M88 engine, then subsequently contribute to other major aerospace projects of HAL & Snecma, in India and worldwide. Spanning over 30,000 square meters, the proposed joint venture’s new plant is expected to benefit from substantial investment by the two partners, providing it with state-of-the-art machinery and equipment.
> 
> This agreement marks a major step forward in the long-standing collaboration between Snecma and HAL. The proposed joint venture will further broaden the scope of the excellent relations established over the past 60 years between Safran affiliates and the Indian aerospace industry*. For example, Snecma manufactures the M53 engines powering the Mirage 2000H "Vajra" fighters operated by the Indian Air Force.
> 
> "This new partnership clearly reflects the close relationship established over many years between Snecma, our parent Safran and the Indian aerospace industry," said Pierre Fabre, Chairman and CEO of Snecma. "We are strongly committed to contributing to the ’Make in India’ policy, based on ambitious partnerships and extensive direct investments. This new venture is further proof that we are actively strengthening our existing ties with HAL.”
> 
> - See more at: Request Rejected



Its only an MOU. By itself, it means nothing. Its not even a promise. Just an understanding of working together when opportunity arises.

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## Donatello

sancho said:


> Wrong, since Dassault accepted the RFP and DDP rules, by entering the tender, otherwise they wouldn't had been approved to participate in the first place! So they have to stick to our demands and can't deviate from it now, after their product was selected as L1. They now only try to get more benefits for them, by getting more workshare and less responsibility as they initially agreed to. I even don't mind it if they tried it once (back in late 2012), but it's freaking 2015 now and these delays are going on for far too long, for things that were clear since 2007.



Dassault is selling, India is buying. Why doesn't India cancel the deal? Dassault cannot do much, unless they substantially agree to let go of their demands, which puts their business at risk.


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## Stephen Cohen

Donatello said:


> Dassault is selling, India is buying. Why doesn't India cancel the deal?



India wants the deal but at favourable terms

We just dont want to buy planes ; it is all about TOT and giving a boost to
Indian industry

SInce we are willing to spend a lot of money ; we feel we should get a good deal

India has had a very good relationship with Dassault and France

So we thought ; that they would be amenable to our demands

But if things dont move forward ; we will have to call it quits

It will all be decided in TWO months time


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## Agent_47

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Its only an MOU. By itself, it means nothing. Its not even a promise. Just an understanding of working together when opportunity arises.


Dude its part of Rafale ToT, When #MMRCA is signed all these MOUs are reality.


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## Stephen Cohen

Agent_47 said:


> *When #MMRCA is signed *all these MOUs are reality.



That my friend is the BILLION dollar question


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## MokshaVimukthi

Agent_47 said:


> Dude its part of Rafale ToT, When #MMRCA is signed all these MOUs are reality.



At least we know the Engines will be made in India  ........... wonder who will provide the alloys.


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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> "This new partnership clearly reflects the close relationship established over many years between Snecma, our parent Safran and the Indian aerospace industry," said Pierre Fabre, Chairman and CEO of Snecma. "*We are strongly committed to contributing to the ’Make in India’ policy, based on ambitious partnerships and extensive direct investments. This new venture is further proof that we are actively strengthening our existing ties with HAL*.”



Good to see that there are French companies that see the potential of India / HAL as a long term partner and we have heared the same from Thales too.


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## halloweene

MokshaVimukthi said:


> At least we know the Engines will be made in India  ........... wonder who will provide the alloys.


I guess Bharat Forge. Some parts need an oven costing 100 million dollars...


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## sancho

Donatello said:


> Dassault is selling, India is buying. Why doesn't India cancel the deal? Dassault cannot do much, unless they substantially agree to let go of their demands, which puts their business at risk.



Just that India can give the deal to other vendors too, where does Dassault get a deal for 126 fighters? If they had played it smarter, they could had even a way bigger deal and far more benefits for the Rafale itself, but for that, they should had seen us as a partner country, not only as just another export country. They are risking the business on their own, all we ask is, to remain commited to the deal, till the 126th fighter is delivered and not only till the 18th fighter is.


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## Stephen Cohen

sancho said:


> all we ask is, to remain commited to the deal, till the 126th fighter is delivered and not only till the 18th fighter is.



And there is EVERY possibility of the 63 MORE planes being bought ( exercising the options )
ie a total of 189 or say 200 ie if the First 126 come out RIGHT


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## sancho

MokshaVimukthi said:


> At least we know the Engines will be made in India  ........... wonder who will provide the alloys.



We know more:

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## MokshaVimukthi

halloweene said:


> I guess Bharat Forge. Some parts need an oven costing 100 million dollars...



I don't think they make super alloys for jet turbines. I don't think anyone in India makes it.

Besides they are not a metal smelting company, (e.g steel plant) but a forging company.


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## sancho

Stephen Cohen said:


> And there is EVERY possibility of the 63 MORE planes being bought ( exercising the options )
> ie a total of 189 or say 200 ie if the First 126 come out RIGHT



The 63 is just the 50% option for any deal that is made under the DDP 2006, with all the delays and issues Dassault caused, it will be questionable if more will ordered.



halloweene said:


> I guess Bharat Forge. Some parts need an oven costing 100 million dollars...



Any confirmation for that yet?


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## Stephen Cohen

sancho said:


> The 63 is just the 50% option for any deal that is made under the DDP 2006, with all the delays and issues Dassault caused, it will be questionable if more will ordered.



With an ALL fourth Generation PLAAF breathing down our necks in 2025 and beyond
we need * Numbers and quality BOTH *


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## halloweene

MokshaVimukthi said:


> I don't think they make super alloys for jet turbines. I don't think anyone in India makes it.
> 
> Besides they are not a metal smelting company, (e.g steel plant) but a forging company.



I just know theere is a MOU with a company building parts for BMW.


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## sancho

Stephen Cohen said:


> With an ALL fourth Generation PLAAF breathing down our necks in 2025 and beyond
> we need * Numbers and quality BOTH *



Yes, but not necessarily more Rafale, the 126 now might be delivered only around 2025, a time when we will have LCA MK2 and FGFA in proper production too. So by then, IAF can go for more LCA MK2s for numbers, or more FGFAs for quality, not to mention that DRDOs dream of AMCA is aimed on soon after 2025. More MMRCAs had a chance only if we had agreed in 2012/13 and by increasing the order from Europe directly. Today, that would only be an option with the EF, since it's the only choice that can offer us many fighters in fast production.


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## Stephen Cohen

@sancho

If we buy Rafale it will serve till 2050 and beyond 

After 2035 ALL Mig 29 s ; Jaguars and Mirages will go

AMCA is just on paper ; So MKI ; Rafale and FGFA is what we will need

Therefore the order can easily go upto 200


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## MokshaVimukthi

halloweene said:


> I just know theere is a MOU with a company building parts for BMW.



BMW do not use super alloy. Most parts are made of aluminium alloys.


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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> We know more:
> 
> View attachment 194384



The french will loose a lot if the loose this deal,i hope they come to their sense & accept our terms


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## Donatello

sancho said:


> Just that India can give the deal to other vendors too, where does Dassault get a deal for 126 fighters? If they had played it smarter, they could had even a way bigger deal and far more benefits for the Rafale itself, but for that, they should had seen us as a partner country, not only as just another export country. They are risking the business on their own, all we ask is, to remain commited to the deal, till the 126th fighter is delivered and not only till the 18th fighter is.


Is there the actual RFP document available? Would be good to see what conditions have been outlined by India.


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## halloweene

Of course not


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## PARIKRAMA

*MMRCA RFP to blame for delay?*
Three years after the Indian government picked France’s Dassault Aviation to supply 126 of its Rafale fighters to the Indian Air Force and countless rounds of negotiations over the final contract, it’s still all tunnel and no light at the end of it. While Dassault has been tightlipped about what’s causing the delay, Indian officials have from time to time let it be known that price and guarantees are holding the deal up.

Now, this newspaper has learnt that the “cost escalation” maybe as much due to an Indian “self-goal” as to the French trying to milk the deal for all it’s worth after having quoted the lowest price among six competitors.

The original Indian Request for Proposal (RFP) for the IAF’s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contract did not take into account over 60 items, the costs of which added up as contract negotiations proceeded, knowledgeable sources who have observed the origins and the trajectory of the told this newspaper. The MMRCA contract is the first time the defence ministry is attempting to do life-cycle costing for a large acquisition, in addition to writing in the costs for technology transfer and working in offsets. Given the complexity, that exercise has been botched up, the sources said.

The initial estimate for 126 fighters was $10.4 billion. Now, it’s more like $18-20 billion officially, but as high as $27-30 billion, if sources are to be believed. The $18-20 billion figure would probably be reached just by taking currency value changes and inflation into account. At those rates, we are talking about paying anywhere from Rs 800 crore to Rs 1,000 crore per aircraft.

With perhaps more to shell out for mid-life upgrades that would be due for the Rafale less than a decade from the time deliveries start.

But the price by itself astronomical though it maybe is not the biggest obstacle to signing the deal, sources said. It is the government’s insistence that Dassault take responsibility for the quality and timeline of the 108 fighters that HAL would produce under the deal, and not just for the 18 that the French company will supply in flyaway condition (Dassault is also said to be insisting that India agree to a 42 direct supply-84 by HAL mix).

“I cannot see how this can be resolved. No Indian government can sign a deal that absolves the vendor of all responsibility, that too after having paid such a humongous sum of money. And Dassault cannot agree to take responsibility for what HAL does, especially given that doubts have been expressed over HAL’s ability to do the project”, said a retired Air Marshal of the IAF.

*MMRCA RFP to blame for delay? | The Asian Age*


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## SpArK

IAF chief Arup Raha: India needs MMRCA jets, *not necessarily Rafale*.

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## MokshaVimukthi

The Horse is dead. Stop flogging it.

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## 帅的一匹

SpArK said:


> IAF chief Arup Raha: India needs MMRCA jets, *not necessarily Rafale*.


the problem is time! you don't have time sir.


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## MokshaVimukthi

wanglaokan said:


> the problem is time! you don't have time sir.



Why ? are you planing to attack us ?


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## shontumontu

The real indication of the rafale India deal getting scuttled was the Egypt deal.

It was partly financed by France. That was an indication of just how desperate they were to let the Arab air forces play with rafale and let their hands on a few operational rafales to get them interested.

That was indication of the surety of the indo rafale deal not working out and hence the next stage of hardselling to Arab states.

Libya strikes for the second time were for the Egyptians and qtaris.

Oh well...at least I'm glad that Anthony didn't sign it. Maybe willingly. Maybe to his credit.


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## CONNAN

*Rafale deal: Dassault says no change in pricing*

Bengaluru: Confident of signing the much delayed USD 10 billion contract for Rafale fighter jets with India "soon", French Defence major Dassault Thursday said its pricing remains the same from day one and it has not wavered from the request for proposal (RPF).

It also said an empowered team has already arrived in India and carried forward the talks as decided by the Defence Ministers of the two countries in December.

"The pricing issue is very clear. Our pricing remains the same from day one of LI (Lowest bidder). So there has been no change on that front," Dassault Aviation CEO Eric Trappier said.

Asked about claims that Dassault is not willing to stand guarantee for the 108 jets to be made by state-run HAL here, Trappier denied there was any deviation from what the RFP said.

"We are exactly in line with our answer to (Request for Proposal (RFP). This answer led the government of India to select L1 which was Rafale. And we have stuck to the same commitment which is totally in line and compliant with the RFP," he told PTI here.

Trappier, who is here to take part in the Aero India air show, stressed that his firm is convinced that it is totally in line with the RFP.
[...]

Egypt deal
Dassault had this week signed a $5.9 billion deal with Egypt for 24 Rafale jets. This pricing is much higher than the $10 billion for the 126 jets that it has to provide India.

This increased fears in Indian defence circles that the cost of Rafale deal with India will also go high.
Asked about the price hike, Trappier said, “There is none. Don’t forget what has been published in regard to Egypt contracts for 24 aircraft, frigates and missiles for the frigates. It is not only aircraft,” he said.

When Dassault was first selected in 2012, India was to be Dassault’s first country of export.
Each country has its own way of negotiating. There was a very strong requirement from Egypt and we were able to make quickly to their strong requirement,” The Dassault CEO said.

“As far as India is concerned, we have been committed to IAF and Indian government for a very long time,” he said adding that negotiations are always a difficult job.

He said Dassault and HAL have had good negotiations and both now have a “good understanding” about the work share and who is manufacturing what.

Asked how soon he hoped the deal would be inked, Trappier said it was up to the Indian government.
“It is their time schedule. We are totally committed to speed up the process if we can. We are working totally transparent with the MOD,” he said.

The Dassault CEO said work is going on in the right direction.

“We are very fond of getting the deal itself so we start investing in India and begin work on the project in tune with Make in India policy of the government here,” he said.

"We understand it is taking time because it is a huge deal to negotiate.... I am confident that we should see the deal to be on very soon,” the CEO said

Rafale deal: Dassault says no change in pricing - The Economic Times

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## 帅的一匹

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Why ? are you planing to attack us ?


you are so lucky that we don't. Modi has confidence in China that's why he afford to cancel the deal.


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## Echo_419

MokshaVimukthi said:


> The Horse is dead. Stop flogging it.



Shub Shub Bol oye


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## PARIKRAMA

*Some Russian Views/Propaganda and "expert" opinions !!!*

*Is Rafale deal collapsing? Experts offer alternatives*

Amid speculation in the Indian media about India planning to abandon its plan to purchase 126 Rafale multi-role fighter jets, Russian experts analyse reasons for possible rejection of the prized deal and outline viable alternatives that will effectively meet the needs of the country’s military apparatus.

The French fighter jet Rafale was chosen by India’s Ministry of Defence through the tender for an MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft), which resulted in the planned purchase of 126 aircraft at a cost of $10 billion. Besides Rafale, the fighter jets Typhoon, developed by the EADS Concern, the Gripen by the Swedish company SAAB, the American F-16 and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, and the Russian MiG-35 were other contenders which participated in the tender.

The Rafale won, reportedly due to the lower purchase price of the aircraft. However, later it turned out that the life cycle cost of the French fighter would be much higher, and the final price of the contract for 126 jets threatened to exceed $20 billion.


The main reason for the possible refusal of India to buy the Rafale has been the price of the entire deal. 
Moreover, experts stressed that the French were willing to sell only ready-made machines, with technology transfer being out of the question. 
Another factor that could adversely impact the Rafale sale to India was the unpredictability of the French in performing their contractual obligations, given the recent failure to deliver the Mistral to Russia.

“At the moment, the situation has not been developing in the best way for the Indian Air Force,” Konstantin Makienko, deputy director of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST), told Lenta.ru in a recent interview. “Even if the contract to supply the Rafale is eventually concluded, it threatens to entail enormous costs for India – about $20 billion, and possibly more, while the fleet would turn out to be obsolete upon delivery. In 2015, choosing a fourth generation platform can only be looked at as an interim solution. The long-term goal must be a fifth-generation platform.”

In an interview with TASS, Dmitry Shugaev, deputy director of the state corporation Rostec, said that, first of all, the most important reason for India’s possible refusal to buy the Rafale is connected with the reluctance of France to sell its technologies.

“Today, simply selling a particular product in India is rather problematic – as the country also wants to set up joint ventures and joint laboratories,” said Shugaev. “All want to have modern weapons, weapons of the new generation, they all want new technologies – this being a global trend.” 

The high price, and to some extent, the refusal to transfer production technologies, as well as the now undermined reputation of France in its deal with Russia for the supply of the Mistral ships, may all be reasons for India to abandon its contract for the purchase of the Rafale fighter – in favour of the Russian Su-30MKI, military expert Victor Murakhovsky mentioned in an interview with the portal russianpulse.ru. 

*"First of all, this fighter jet is really overpriced. Secondly, the French would not agree to transfer some of their technologies, which would allow for partial assembly, and then the subsequent production of components at Indian companies,” said the expert. “Moscow has proposed a modernised version of the Su-30MKI, in which a significant proportion of components would be produced in India, and in the future, assembly would be organised at Indian aviation companies. This interested the new government, including the new defence minister.”*


*The expert also believes that the key reason in the possible rejection of the Rafale, is India’s demands for technology transfer and a technical change in the appearance of the aircraft, including using equipment produced in India. *
*Secondly, he says, there are the difficulties associated with the Dassault Aviation Company – “the French company is very unyielding, even, perhaps one could say, an arrogant partner, something which has already created a lot of problems for this firm”. *
*Thirdly, the expert mentioned the difficulty at reaching an agreement on the price. “The Indians are very tough negotiators, pushing the seller to reduce his prices, but Dassault, for its part, is not inclined to give in, and as time goes on, the prices keep going up.”*
*Finally, according to him, there is a significant difference in the approaches used by the Indian Air Force and that country’s manufacturing sector. While the IAF might be interested in getting a new aircraft model, the Indian aircraft manufacturer, the HAL Company, feels comfortable in the Sukhoi/Irkutsk technological environment, to which it became accustomed to during the development of production facilities for the Su-30MKI and their gradual localisation.*

*What is the alternative to Rafale?
*

*A key element in any alternative solution, says Makienko, should be the abolition of the actual MMRCA tender, which today has lost all military and technological sense. *
*After that, a “binary option” is possible: First of all, India must close the ‘“window” to prevent its Air Force from lagging behind. *
*They can do this by purchasing 60-70 Su-30MKI aircraft, supplemented by additional MiG-29s from the MiG Corporation, in the new UPG configuration, and not the modernised old machines, but airplanes of a new construction, as well as the acquisition of some second-hand Mirage-2000s, for example, from the UAE. *
*This will allow the country to solve its problem in the “here and now”, at a cost of about $10 billion.*
*In the future, the Russian expert argues that India needs, in addition to the FGFA project, to come to grips with a light/medium fifth-generation fighter (AMCA), possibly making this an international undertaking. *
Is Rafale deal collapsing? Experts offer alternatives | Russia & India Report


That is a lot to digest . But some are good lines to wonder like
*“the French company is very unyielding, even, perhaps one could say, an arrogant partner
or 

While the IAF might be interested in getting a new aircraft model, the Indian aircraft manufacturer, the HAL Company, feels comfortable in the Sukhoi/Irkutsk technological environment, to which it became accustomed to during the development of production facilities for the Su-30MKI and their gradual localisation.
*
i like reading "expert" views .. LOL

@sancho @Abingdonboy 
@halloweene : I am sure you would love to hear such Opinions... especially when russians feel Dassault is unyielding and arrogant types..

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## Echo_419

wanglaokan said:


> you are so lucky that we don't. Modi has confidence in China that's why he afford to cancel the deal.



Nope we have strong confidence in China that it will not destroy it's hard work of 30 years & let the West dominate it again by starting a meaning less war with India

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## MokshaVimukthi

wanglaokan said:


> you are so lucky that we don't. Modi has confidence in China that's why he afford to cancel the deal.



LOL. Modi has confidence in India ...... he knows how to deal with china. 



Echo_419 said:


> Shub Shub Bol oye



I am a fan of Rafale, not of this deal. I will be happy if this deal dies its natural death.


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## sancho

Donatello said:


> Is there the actual RFP document available? Would be good to see what conditions have been outlined by India.



RFP not, the DDP 2006 which is the base for the RFP is publically available and it's actually pretty clear:

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 13



SpArK said:


> IAF chief Arup Raha: India needs MMRCA jets, *not necessarily Rafale*.



Now that's interesting, the Air Chief showing some balls! 



> *Rafale & Sukhoi Can't Replace Each Other: IAF Chief *
> 
> Amidst swirling speculation that India's M-MRCA jet deal with Rafale is shuddering through final lap turbulence, and suggestions (including by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar himself) that the India could buy more Su-30 MKI jets if the Rafale deal didn't work out, *Indian Air Force chief Arup Raha today publicly declared that the Rafale and Su-30 were different aircraft and that one couldn't replace the other*...
> 
> ...The IAF chief also stated, in what could be perceived as a sense of resignation over the turbulence negotiations have seen over the last 18 months, "Rafale has been selected as L1. It is a replacement. *It is important that we have the MMRCA, I would not say Rafale*.



That's not only countering the DM and additional MKIs, but basically inviting the EF as an option!

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## MokshaVimukthi

sancho said:


> That's not only countering the DM and additional MKIs, but basically inviting the EF as an option!



Are you sure you are not seeing what you want to see ? The DM did not pitch MKI as a replacement for Rafale, so there is nothing to counter. 

LCA is the jet that will be the MMRCA.


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## sancho

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Are you sure you are not seeing what you want to see ? The DM did not pitch MKI as a replacement for Rafale, so there is nothing to counter.
> 
> LCA is the jet that will be the MMRCA.



Did you missed the DM's interview with Headlines Today? The DM clearly stated that the MKI could be an alternative, which the IAF Chief now counters and since LCA is a light class fighter, the IAF Chief don't consider it either, but only MMRCAs.


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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> RFP not, the DDP 2006 which is the base for the RFP is publically available and it's actually pretty clear:
> 
> Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 13
> 
> 
> 
> Now that's interesting, the Air Chief showing some balls!
> 
> 
> 
> That's not only countering the DM and additional MKIs, but basically inviting the EF as an option!



I srsly hope the deal with Dassult materializes,we need those jets ASAP


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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> I srsly hope the deal with Dassult materializes,we need those jets ASAP



That's what most of us or even the IAF Chief hopes, but we simply can't wait for Dassault anymore and need to think about alternatives and take a decision now.


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## MokshaVimukthi

sancho said:


> Did you missed the DM's interview with Headlines Today? The DM clearly stated that the MKI could be an alternative, which the IAF Chief now counters and since LCA is a light class fighter, the IAF Chief don't consider it either, but only MMRCAs.



I heard the DM Clearly say that MKI is not a replacement but he was addressing the question raised about short falls in IAF. He said for MMRCA, he needs to wait for the PNC.


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## sancho

MokshaVimukthi said:


> I heard the DM Clearly say that MKI is not a replacement but he was addressing the question raised about short falls in IAF. He said for MMRCA, he needs to wait for the PNC.



This interview:
Parrikar outlines alternatives to Rafale | Business Standard News


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## MokshaVimukthi

sancho said:


> This interview:
> Parrikar outlines alternatives to Rafale | Business Standard News



That is the older interview. But yes, he is talking about how life can go on without Rafale. Su 30 being PART of the solution. NOT the ONLY solution.

In fact he goes on to indicate that the cost of Rafale was exorbitant.

"*It is not always… go and purchase it. A cost effective purchase is also important*." .......... Declining to reveal the actual cost of buying the Rafale, Parrikar said, "Whether it is Rs 40,000 crore, or Rs 50,000 crore or Rs 1 lakh-crore,* we are speaking about 50 per cent of the capital budget of the defence services*."


Then in the same interview, he also indicates that Dassault is not satisfying the RFP.


ALL in ALL it looked like he was preparing grounds for dumping the AC. His later interviews has only strengthened that belief.


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## baukiki88

*Link:*

*Sukhoi cannot replace Rafale: IAF chief*


Are you guys going for the mig 35 instead?


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## sancho

MokshaVimukthi said:


> That is the older interview. But yes, he is talking about how life can go on without Rafale.



And that's what the Air Chief was refering to, just that he makes clear that IAF still wants MMRCAs if Rafale fails and not MKIs.



baukiki88 said:


> Are you guys going for the mig 35 instead?



You can't go for something that is not available and IAF had rejected it anyway.

Interesting interview with an RAF EF pilot at Aero India:


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Interesting interview with an RAF EF pilot at Aero India:


Wow, I know he is there working for BAE but he really did talk a lot of nonsense didn't he? Reliable? Tell that to the Luftwaffe. Best in class capabilities? So why is the RAF using aged Tornados in Iraq and before that Libya and the RAF only using the EFT as an air defence fighter at home whilst the Rafale has taken part of combat missions in Afghanistan, Mali, Libya and Iraq.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Wow, I know he is there working for BAE but he really did talk a lot of nonsense didn't he? Reliable? Tell that to the Luftwaffe. Best in class capabilities? So why is the RAF using aged Tornados in Iraq and before that Libya and the RAF only using the EFT as an air defence fighter at home whilst the Rafale has taken part of combat missions in Afghanistan, Mali, Libya and Iraq.



 Please buddy, not the old stuff again. Luftwaffe, just as RAF or even IAF in some cases had ordered too little ammount of spares. That caused cannibalisation of other fighters and therefor to lower number of operational fighters. IAF did the same with MKI or the Hawk trainer, which caused problems too, so that's an issue of the customer not the fighter. In Libya the Rafale had more issues than the EF's and as everybody knows, the Tornado is used because it can carry the Brimstone now, which the EF will get only till 2018. If the French Airforce would have the Tornado with Brimstone, they wouldn't use the Rafale either, since the Brimstone offer clear advantages over AASM, especially against low collateral damage targets. As I said before, in 2018 the EF will surpass the Rafale in CAS, by 2019 with SPEAR 3 also in SEAD and if they can integrate the Storm Shadow in asymetric configs (hinted by the last test pics), they might even be able to carry a single missile with 2 fuel tanks.


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## halloweene

> In Libya the Rafale had more issues than the EF's and as everybody knows



Ahem with an over 95% availability and flying, performing real missions while EF was dancing circles in the air?

So :
Radar : studies for finalizing just funded. A looong way to be operationnal.
Brimstone : overcostly (near the cost of a 250 Kg ASM) and not integrated.
ASRAAM : good advice : prefer IRIS-T
Meteor : not integrated
Spear 3 : doesn't exist yet.
Storm Shadow : stupid misssile can't be integrated where scheduled, need to be on a wet point. No Range (and not integrated). Asymetric configuration? Forget it! Spain could not integrate 1000 Kgs dumb bombs in an asymetric way...
No anti ship capability

Basically a lot of "will be" suddelnly becomes by miracle a "has"

Program do move and specially on spectacular items. But they are spectacular because they were missing! Look i din't say the plane in itself do not have qualities (high acceleration high speed high altitude interceptor). but for swing role, it is decades from Rafale.

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## MokshaVimukthi

sancho said:


> And that's what the Air Chief was refering to, just that he makes clear that IAF still wants MMRCAs if Rafale fails and not MKIs.



The requirement that prompted the MMRCA is still there so naturally the IAF would want it to be addressed.

However the only two realistic options with IAF will be Su 30 and LCA and they will have to pick between them. A hobsons choice, but its of their own making.

But its clear that the IAF is making an desperate appeal for Rafale without sounding like sales agent for Rafale.


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Ahem with an over 95% availability and flying, performing real missions while EF was dancing circles in the air?



Remember the issue with the emergency landing and if I remember there were also some engine changes. Nothing similar was reported from the EF if I remember correctly and nobody said that the Rafale wasn't vastly superior *back then*.



halloweene said:


> Look i din't say the plane in itself do not have qualities (high acceleration high speed high altitude interceptor).* but for swing role, it is decades from Rafale*.



It WAS far ahead, but as you admited, it is moving on, while Rafale is basically stuck at it's level and waiting for the MLU to actually give it some game changers again.
You simply can't deny that an EF with Brimstone 2 and Paveway IV is superior to Rafale with GBU 49 or AASM 250 in CAS and that the EF weapon pack is less costly!
Neither that SPEAR 3 is superior to AASM 125 in SEAD or precision strike (SPICE 250 is even better)!
Nor can you deny that a Captor E with 50% more TR modules and the swashplate is superior to the RBE 2 in the F3R!

And that shows the movement of the EF upgrades compared to the Rafale upgrades. That still doesn't make the EF as capable as Rafale in all areas, but it comes close enough in some areas and surpasses it in others.



MokshaVimukthi said:


> But its clear that the IAF is making an desperate appeal for Rafale without sounding like sales agent for Rafale.



If hat would be the case, he only would had supported the DM instead of countering him, because that would increase pressure on Dassault, without bringing up the choice of another MMRCA and without stating that it doesn't needs to be Rafale, but an MMRCA.
He chose his words for a reason and he made it clear that Rafale remains the prefered choice, but that even IAF is starting to think about other ways.


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## Echo_419

halloweene said:


> Ahem with an over 95% availability and flying, performing real missions while EF was dancing circles in the air?
> 
> So :
> Radar : studies for finalizing just funded. A looong way to be operationnal.
> Brimstone : overcostly (near the cost of a 250 Kg ASM) and not integrated.
> ASRAAM : good advice : prefer IRIS-T
> Meteor : not integrated
> Spear 3 : doesn't exist yet.
> Storm Shadow : stupid misssile can't be integrated where scheduled, need to be on a wet point. No Range (and not integrated). Asymetric configuration? Forget it! Spain could not integrate 1000 Kgs dumb bombs in an asymetric way...
> No anti ship capability
> 
> Basically a lot of "will be" suddelnly becomes by miracle a "has"
> 
> Program do move and specially on spectacular items. But they are spectacular because they were missing! Look i din't say the plane in itself do not have qualities (high acceleration high speed high altitude interceptor). but for swing role, it is decades from Rafale.



Conclusion East or Best Rafael is the best


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## MokshaVimukthi

sancho said:


> If hat would be the case, he only would had supported the DM instead of countering him, because that would increase pressure on Dassault, without bringing up the choice of another MMRCA and without stating that it doesn't needs to be Rafale, but an MMRCA.
> He chose his words for a reason and he made it clear that Rafale remains the prefered choice, but that even IAF is starting to think about other ways.



No IAF chief can publicly counter the DM  ........ that is just a figment of your immagination. 

IAF preferred choice has been known for a LONG time now. Its only now the IAF is realizing the Nations choice.


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## DrSomnath999

*Sukhoi cannot replace Rafale: IAF chief*
Sukhoi cannot replace Rafale: IAF chief | IndiaTV News


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## halloweene

Paveway IV is a good bomb (btw a EPII mounted on a UK bomb body) but is nowhere close to the capabilities of AASM. It is not only a pb of range, but also of flight domain used for release. Why do you think it was recently tested in the USA on a F-16 to check compatibility with US interface?
Brimstone is a fine (although expensive ) antitank missile. Better for low collateral damage than AASM, clearly. I guess that is the reason why we are integrating guided rockets...
Rafale is moving also. Not on spectacular things, but very useful : new radar modes, sharing data from sensors, new version of Spectra, deported antennas and GaN modules for RBE2 etc.
When Captor will be fielded (and btw the export version will be downgraded according to Scorpion), France will be on the verge to integrate smart skin GaN radar...

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Why do you think it was recently tested in the USA on a F-16 to check compatibility with US interface?



Because Sagem is desperate to sell it, because it has to close the production line otherwise. 



halloweene said:


> Rafale is moving also. Not on spectacular things, but very useful



The addition of 2 MICA at the external wingstations is movement too and Dassaults PR department made some nice pics and called it fully loaded, but it actually doesn't make any difference, since it's "only" 2 more MICA. Neither can the Rafale carry more METEOR in A2A, nor any additional strike loads in that config. The final development and integration of the rocket pod for CAS, the AASM 125 for SEAD, or the AASM 1000 for heavy precision strikes would all had more impact on the operational capabilities of Rafale, than some more radar or IFF modes. But even if those are under consideration for years, none of them seems to come in the F3R right? While that was the advantage of Rafale in the past, fast further development of the operational capabilities of the fighter, by adding more capabilities. 
The upgrades SPECTRA might be the only part of the F3R, than can make a difference, a part of the Talios of course, but the rest are only minor modifications and not even useful for most export customers.



halloweene said:


> When Captor will be fielded (and btw the export version will be downgraded according to Scorpion), France will be on the verge to integrate smart skin GaN radar...



That's exactly like the EF supporters said, that they are on the verge of getting the AESA, although that was never funded. But we both know that any credible upgrade for the RBE 2 AESA (GaN, side arrays) will come only with the MLU and that's a decade away, while the export AESA of the EF is offered for fighters around 2018. And even if it's downgraded (in whatever way), it will remain to have longer detection range and a wider field of view, just because of the size and swashplate advantage.


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## 帅的一匹

DrSomnath999 said:


> *Sukhoi cannot replace Rafale: IAF chief*
> Sukhoi cannot replace Rafale: IAF chief | IndiaTV News


IAF is mind stuck like a Child wanna a toy?

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## OTTOMAN

please stop discussing sukhoi in this thread.... i nominate this thread for worst moderation award!
indeed indians are really close to the hearts of mods...


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## Luca1

wanglaokan said:


> IAF is mind stuck like a Child wanna a toy?



Actually, if the kickback infrastructure are in place and the right people are getting greased, this deal will go through.


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## CONNAN

*AERO INDIA: HAL defends ability to produce Rafale fighter*

Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) chairman T Suvarnaraju has hit back at reports that an Indian deal to obtain 126 Dassault Rafale fighters is being held up by French concerns about the Indian manufacturer’s quality standards.

Suvaranraju was addressing the media at the Aero India show in Bengaluru, where local journalists have shown great interest in the Rafale programme and the HAL’s helicopter businesses.

Suvarnaraju stressed his faith in HAL’s products, adding that it produces components and structures for a number of major aircraft types, such as the forward doors for the Airbus A320 and the gun bay doors and wire harnesses for the Boeing F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet. The company has also worked on Boeing’s commercial programmes, including the 737 and 777, he said, and pointed to its long record in license-producing types such as the Sukhoi Su-30MKI, BAE Systems Hawk and Dornier 228.

Nonetheless, Suvarnaraju declines to confirm or deny persistent reports that Dassault is dubious about guaranteeing fighters produced by HAL. Under the original terms of the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) requirement, the first 18 Rafales are to be produced in France, and the subsequent 108 in India by HAL.







Aaron Chong/Flightglobal

Dassault, which has the largest international presence at the show, also declines to comment on the status of its MMRCA negotiations, which have dragged on for four years following the Rafale’s selection in 2011.

Suvarnaraju also defended the reputation of the company’s Dhruv advanced light helicopter following recent crashes of the type in Ecuador and India. He says the reasons for the incidents are yet to be ascertained.

HAL says it is moving forward with plans for a factory to produce the planned light utility helicopter and naval multi-role helicopter for India's armed forces. The company has secured 610 acres of land in India’s Karnataka province where it will build production facilities with the capability to produce helicopter engines, aerostructures and other systems.

In a separate press conference, Indian air force Air Marshal Arup Raha said that obsolescence in the service’s Mikoyan MiG-21 fleet means that obtaining the Rafale is an urgent priority for the service. He declined to respond to questions about what the air force will do if negotiations over the MMRCA programme between Dassault and India’s defence ministry fall through.

AERO INDIA: HAL defends ability to produce Rafale fighter - 2/19/2015 - Flight Global

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## PARIKRAMA

According to Raha, three of its subcommittees have already concluded their work. “Issues are being resolved by the fourth committee dealing with contracts,” said Raha. The final report is expected in a fortnight.

An Indian defense official confirmed to *AIN *previous reports that the contract was held up by the liability clause that makes Dassault responsible for any mishaps.

*It is likely HAL could agree to share the liability along with Dassault, AIN has learned.

Aerospace Diary: Rafale’s Prospects Discussed By Top Indian Officials

@Abingdonboy @sancho @Stephen Cohen @halloweene @DrSomnath999 @CONNAN 


If the liability is shared, then i guess there wont be any more hiccups left or we can expect new things...
*
@halloweene : By any chance you have heard anything on this about liability sharing..

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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> *If the liability is shared, then i guess there wont be any more hiccups left or we can expect new things...*



It's the performance guarantee for the licence produced Rafales, that is the problem now, since Dassault is only ready to guarantee that for the first 18 and wants to divert the responsibility for the full 108 on HAL only. But the DDP says, that the OEM (Dassault), has to guarantee the performance of the product at the production agency (HAL) / end customer (IAF).



> *Aero India 2015: Indian Air Force chief adds to MMRCA confusion*
> 
> India's Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha has added to the prevailing confusion over the purchase of 126 Dassault Rafale fighters by the Indian Air Force (IAF)...
> 
> ...Addressing a press conference at Aero India 2015 on 19 February, ACM Raha said that to make up for fast depleting fighter numbers *it was important for the IAF to swiftly induct a platform for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement, but it did not "specifically" have to be the Rafale
> 
> "It is important we have an MMRCA. I would not say Rafale, but we need to have it [MMRCA] in the quickest possible time," the IAF chief said...
> *
> ...The air chief's remarks, however, further fuelled speculation that the deal for 126 Rafales to meet the MMRCA requirement could well be on the rocks.
> 
> *The purchase is reportedly deadlocked over Dassault's refusal to take responsibility for the 108 Rafales* *that the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is to licence produce in accordance with the 2007 MMRCA tender*. Eighteen of 126 aircraft are to be acquired in flyaway condition...
> 
> ...This impasse prompted Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to say recently that the IAF could acquire additional licence-built Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters if the Rafale deal fell through.
> 
> ACM Raha, however, disagreed with Parrikar and said that additional Su-30s were not an acceptable substitute for the MMRCA requirement.
> 
> "They are different types of aircraft and cannot replace each other; they only complement each other," he said...



Aero India 2015: Indian Air Force chief adds to MMRCA confusion - IHS Jane's 360



> *Major breakthrough in India for the Rafale SNECMA and HAL agreed to create a joint venture to produce engine parts M-88*
> 
> An important despatch and welcome just fell Snecma (Safran) and HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) have signed an agreement in principle (Memory of Understanding) to create a joint venture to produce parts of the M-88 engine.
> 
> This property, which does not measure less than 30 000 m2, will be responsible for the production of high-tech parts for engines of future Indian Rafale.
> 
> For 60 years, the subsidiaries of SAFRAN is present in India. The group will already employs 2,600 highly qualified people, with an increase of 30% per year of the workforce for 10 years...



Google Übersetzer


halloween's article on the Snecma / HAL JV

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## CONNAN

From my sources in BR after their recent gathering in Bangalore these are the points which is causing the delay

India is insisting that France's Dassault Aviation take full responsibility for the production of the aircraft at a state-ran facility in Bangalore under the 2012 bid offer

France has said it will help Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd stick to delivery schedules, but that it cannot give guarantees for production of the aircraft made at a facility over which it has no administrative or expert control.

But three years on, the sides are far from signing the contract and an Indian defence source said price negotiations were on hold until the issue of licensed production was resolved in line with the original request for proposals (RFP) floated by the Indian defence ministry.

French concerns that Indian military procurement authorities may impose conditions on the manufacture of the Rafale in addition to guarantees already given to Hindustan Aeronautics.

Both sides are keen to reach a conclusion before Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits France in April.

like I said in another thread lets wait till Modis visit to France in April


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## sancho

CONNAN said:


> From my sources in BR after their recent gathering in Bangalore these are the points which is causing the delay
> 
> India is insisting that France's Dassault Aviation take full responsibility for the production of the aircraft at a state-ran facility in Bangalore under the 2012 bid offer
> 
> France has said it will help Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd stick to delivery schedules, but that it cannot give guarantees for production of the aircraft made at a facility over which it has no administrative or expert control.
> 
> But three years on, the sides are far from signing the contract and an Indian defence source said price negotiations were on hold until the issue of licensed production was resolved in line with the original request for proposals (RFP) floated by the Indian defence ministry.
> 
> French concerns that Indian military procurement authorities may impose conditions on the manufacture of the Rafale in addition to guarantees already given to Hindustan Aeronautics.
> 
> Both sides are keen to reach a conclusion before Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits France in April.
> 
> like I said in another thread lets wait till Modis visit to France in April



Source please! Btw, does Modi vist France or Germany first?


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## CONNAN

sancho said:


> Source please! Btw, does Modi vist France or Germany first?



Its from Bharath rakshak 2015 Aero india Bangalore meet and DF I meeting with Sauruv Jha just member discussions i was in phone with shiv i couldnt able to attend BR meet this year

I think Modi will visit France first

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## IrbiS



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## Bang Galore

*France in new bid to nail fighter jet deal with India*

_Visitors look at a scale model of a Dassault Rafale multi-role combat fighter jet during the Aero India 2015 air show at Yelahanka Airforce Station in Bangalore on February 20, 2015_

New Delhi (AFP) - France's defence minister will visit New Delhi this week in a fresh bid to nail a troubled deal to sell 126 Rafale fighter jets which has been snagged for three years and now faces new questions about its cost.

Jean-Yves Le Drian will meet his counterpart Manohar Parrikar and other officials on Monday and Tuesday to prevent the sale's collapse ahead of an upcoming visit to Paris by India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

French company Dassault Aviation won the right in January 2012 to enter exclusive negotiations with India to supply 126 Rafale fighters, with experts saying a final deal could be worth $12 billion.

The idea is for Dassault to supply 18 of the twin-engine fighters later this year while the remaining 108 would be made by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd under technology transfer agreements with India.

But negotiations have proved fraught, both under Modi's government and its Congress predecessor, while a committee which is looking into the deal has reportedly found that it was not the cheapest option.

France's defence ministry has said the visit will give the governments a chance to discuss "international affairs and defence industry issues", but there is little doubt Rafale will dominate proceedings.

Le Drian's visit comes barely two months after he also came to India for talks with Parrikar when they both agreed to push on with negotiations.

Modi's right-wing government, which won power in elections last May, has been blowing hot and cold about the progress of discussions.

A defence ministry spokesman said during Le Drian's visit in December that outstanding differences "would be resolved in a fast-track manner".



- Doubts over costs -



But the government has also commissioned a report about the project costs, adding yet more uncertainty.

Speaking at an air show in Bangalore last week, Parrikar said he expected the contract negotiation committee (CNC) to submit its report within weeks.

"I have asked the CNC to speed up the process of completion of the report for us to take a decision on the acquisition of Rafale," he told reporters. 

India's Business Standard newspaper reported earlier this month that the committee had found the Rafale proposal was in fact more expensive than a rival one by Eurofighter for its Typhoon jets.

The paper quoted defence ministry sources as saying the Rafale deal was "effectively dead" although the Indian top brass is still publicly backing it.

If the deal were to collapse, it would be a huge embarrassment for the French government, which is preparing to welcome Modi for his first visit to Europe as premier in April.

Dassault was able to celebrate the signing of a purchase agreement with Egypt last Monday for 24 Rafales, the first foreign sale of the fighters.

While the company's chief executive Eric Trappier has acknowledged the Indian negotiations have taken longer than expected, he told France's Les Echos financial daily recently that "we are not particularly worried".

One of the main sticking points has been over who should carry the can for any problems with the 108 planes that would be made in India, with the government in Delhi wanting guarantees from Dassault.

Dassault however has baulked at the idea of taking responsibility for the larger Indian-made batch of fighters.

India, which has long been the world's largest buyer of defence equipment, is in the midst of a multi-billion-dollar upgrade of ageing hardware, and recently lifted a cap on foreign investment in defence.

While his government has pledged to push forward with purchases which stalled under Congress, Modi wants to end India's status as the world's number one defence importer and to have 70 percent of hardware manufactured domestically by the turn of the decade.

With clouds hanging over the Rafale deal, there have been reports India could instead buy more Russian-made Sukhoi jets.

But the head of the Indian air force said that the Sukhois had different capabilities and could not be seen as a like-for-like replacement, as he called for the Rafale deal to be expedited.

"Rafale has been selected as L1 (lowest bidder)," Arup Raha said in Bangalore.

"It is important that we have the MMRCA (Rafale) and we need to have it in the quickest possible time".

Raha insisted no alternative plan was being considered at the moment but did not rule one out for the future.

"No, we don't have a Plan B as of now. We are only working on Plan A," he said.

France in new bid to nail fighter jet deal with India - Business Insider


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## anant_s

CONNAN said:


> Both sides are keen to reach a conclusion before Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits France in April.
> 
> like I said in another thread lets wait till Modis visit to France in April


Seems like some sanity is prevailing unlike what some section of media is portraying about deal being a goner etc. & strangely enough no one in official channel has yet pointed put about cost factor (its all liability and guarantees only).
Looks like France and India will sign the dotted lines, come April 2015.

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## Gandhi follower

Why we don't have plan B? Whose fault is that?


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## MokshaVimukthi

Gandhi follower said:


> Why we don't have plan B? Whose fault is that?



I am sure we do. Just cannot be made public yet.

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## sancho

Some interesting developments in the UAE



> *UK To Announce Typhoon-Brimstone Integration*
> 
> With most of its prospective export clients on the doorstep, it's little surprise Typhoon builder Eurofighter looks as though it has chosen the IDEX defense show in Abu Dhabi to announce a deal to integrate a key new weapon into the armory of the combat jet.
> *British Procurement Minister Philip Dunne signaled* the announcement was imminent on Saturday when he told a conference of senior military officers and industry leaders in Abu Dhabi* that he was "looking forward to announcing further air-to-ground strike capability" for the Typhoon at IDEX*...
> 
> ...*Fitting the new Brimstone 2 version of the missile now in series production at MBDA's UK facilities will give the Typhoon a significant capability to defeat small high speed and maneuvering targets on land or at sea*.
> 
> The integration deal is an important part of the effort to upgrade Typhoon capabilities vital to keeping the combat jet in the race for exports *in the Arabian Gulf region* and elsewhere...
> 
> ...*The announcement that Dunne alluded to could be part of a wider improvements package for Typhoon, which may be unveiled this week*, said one industry executive here...



UK To Announce Typhoon-Brimstone Integration

Just a coincidence that Brimstone integration will be announced, just as MBDA formed a JV with the UAE for Sea SPEAR (naval Brimstone) and Matre anti ship missiles (considered for EF as well)? 



> *UAE partners with European firm to launch new missile systems*
> 
> UAE defence companies and MBDA, a European missile maker, are jointly launching three new missile defence systems for the Middle East market at the International Defence Exhibition in Abu Dhabi.
> 
> The three joint initiatives together cost about €100 million (Dh418m) to develop, and comprise a ship-based missile system, a mobile ground-to-air defence system and a coastal defence battery...
> 
> ...Two of MBDA’s new missile programmes have been jointly developed at Abu Dhabi’s Al Fattan shipyard with the oilfield services firm Siham Al Khaleej, and the system will be marketed soon to naval defence buyers in the region, Mr Duleux said.
> 
> One is called the Sea Spear and is based on the Brimstone missile system, which is designed to have a firing capability against fast, smaller incoming seaborne attack craft, which are familiar in Arabian Gulf waters.
> 
> The other joint programme at Al Fattan is a coastal battery anti-ship system based on MBDA’s Marte missile. This is already in the inventory of the UAE armed forces and will be marketed jointly in the region shortly...


UAE partners with European firm to launch new missile systems | The National


----------



## sancho

Another confirmation for Brimstone integration:



> *Eurofighter Typhoons to be fitted with Brimstone missiles*
> 
> *A deal worth 200 million euros ($228 million) has been signed to equip Eurofighter Typhoon combat jets with the latest Brimstone 2 surface attack missiles, Britain's Ministry of Defence (MoD) said on Sunday.*
> 
> *The integration is expected to be delivered into service by Britain's Royal Air Force in late 2018, the MoD said*, with each Typhoon able to carry six of the Brimstone missiles, which are designed to hit fast-moving targets and have already been used by Britain's Tornado jets in Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq...
> 
> ..."*The integration of Brimstone 2 represents a step change in Typhoon air-to-surface capability; providing for the first time both a low collateral moving target capability and multi-weapon launchers," said Bernard Gray, the MoD's Chief of Defence Materiel*.



Eurofighter Typhoons to be fitted with Brimstone missiles| Reuters


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## monitor

*Last Chance: France to Attempt Negotiate Rafale Deal With India This Week*
© REUTERS/ Abhishek N. Chinnappa
MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
11:27 22.02.2015(updated 13:18 22.02.2015)
1724610
*French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Drian will travel to India this week hoping to push on with negotiations to seal the deal on Rafale fighter jets.*








India Scraps Rafale Fighter Deal With France, Eyes Russian Alternative
French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Drian will meet his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar in the week of February 23 looking to prevent the collapse of a deal to sell 126 Rafale fighter jets.


Three years ago, French company Dassault Aviation won the right to start exclusive negotiations with India to supply 126 Rafale fighters in a deal which could be worth as much as $12 billion.

The deal between the two countries has been difficult when it came to the realization of the project. India previously said the deal was too expensive and looked to back down from the project, instead leaning towards Russian-made Sukhoi-30 MKI that is a better armed, more economical and much cheaper fighter jet.

The French minister plans to push on with negotiations, hoping to resolve the differences in “a fast-track manner”. However, his trip could be too little too late. Last week, Russian aircraft corporation Irkut announced that Russia and India plan to discuss the modernization of Russian-designed Su-30MKI fighters, including equipping them with BrahMos cruise missiles.



Read more: Last Chance: France to Attempt Negotiate Rafale Deal With India This Week / Sputnik International

*India's Rafale Dilemma: France Cannot Be Trusted After Mistral Faux Pas*
© Photo: Rex Features
MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
16:53 22.02.2015(updated 17:36 22.02.2015)
2235100
*The battle for the deal to supply warplanes to India is on and Russian Su-30MKI's are the prime candidate to replace Rafale fighters that France failed to deliver years after winning the $10 billion tender.*





Last Chance: France to Attempt Negotiate Rafale Deal With India This Week
France and India have been trying to ink the deal since 2012, with New Delhi becoming increasingly frustrated with its European partner. India wants Dassault Aviation to stick to the original terms of the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract. At the moment its cost has doubled.


The two countries have also been deadlocked over the licensed production of the fighter jets. According to the initial terms, France was to supply 18 Rafale fighters, while India would produce 108 aircraft at a Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) facility under a technology transfer agreement. Later Dassault refused to take responsibility for the warplanes produced at HAL.

India's frustration must have also been exacerbated when France refused to deliver two Mistral-class helicopter carriers built for the Russian Navy. The French stance on the Mistral deal might have contributed to India's decision to seek other partners as the country is upgrading its military equipment.

Earlier this week, the deputy head of Russian arms exporter Rosoboronexport, Sergei Goreslavsky, confirmed that Russia was ready to supply India with additional Su-30MKIs. However, France is not giving up just yet. French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Drian will visit New Delhi in the coming days in an attempt to save the deal.







Scrapping Rafale Deal in Favor of Su-30MKI Optimal for India: Think Tank
The fate of the agreement is expected to be sealed in March before the upcoming visit of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi to France. The collapse of the negotiations would be an embarrassment for the French government, AFP news agency noted.


Both warplanes are currently exhibited at the Aero India 2015 air show in Bangalore. The fact that Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter jets have been manufactured in India since 2000 gives the Russian-designed aircraft an advantage. Moreover, Su-30MKIs are cheaper and more reliable, according to Indian Minister for External Affairs in the North Eastern Region Vijay Kumar Singh.

Years-long successful military cooperation between Russia and India is also a factor. For instance, Russia and India are slated to sign a contract for the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) based on the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fighter jet.





100

Related:
*Russia Ready to Offer India Su-30MKI, MiG-35 Jets to Replace French Rafales*
*India Scraps Rafale Fighter Deal With France, Eyes Russian Alternative*
*India Eyes Cheaper, Reliable Russian Su-30 Jets as Rafale Deal Stalls*
*Rafale Flies Into Trouble*


Read more: India's Rafale Dilemma: France Cannot Be Trusted After Mistral Faux Pas / Sputnik International

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## IrbiS

As a Pakistani, I'm looking forward to see the deal gets scrapped. As neutral observer, IAF should make clear to the govt. whether they want it or not and if they do, govt should sincerely try to get them


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## Abingdonboy

IrbiS said:


> As a Pakistani, I'm looking forward to see the deal gets scrapped. As neutral observer, IAF should make clear to the govt. whether they want it or not and if they do, govt should sincerely try to get them


The IAF has zero say, they have made their case now it is in the hands of the MoD, nothing the IAF can say now will change a thing. It is not a question of the IAF not wanting the Rafale enough, it is far, far more complicated than this.

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## IrbiS

Abingdonboy said:


> The IAF has zero say, they have made their case now it is in the hands of the MoD, nothing the IAF can say now will change a thing. It is not a question of the IAF not wanting the Rafale enough, it is far, far more complicated than this.


Oh, I like it's complicated. Increases chances of scrapping


----------



## PARIKRAMA

*France in new bid to nail fighter jet deal with India*




ETIENNE FONTAINE, AFP

FEB. 21, 2015, 11:14 PM




© AFP/File Manjunath KiranVisitors look at a scale model of a Dassault Rafale multi-role combat fighter jet during the Aero India 2015 air show at Yelahanka Airforce Station in Bangalore on February 20, 2015



New Delhi (AFP) - France's defence minister will visit New Delhi this week in a fresh bid to nail a troubled deal to sell 126 Rafale fighter jets which has been snagged for three years and now faces new questions about its cost.

Jean-Yves Le Drian will meet his counterpart Manohar Parrikar and other officials on Monday and Tuesday to prevent the sale's collapse ahead of an upcoming visit to Paris by India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

French company Dassault Aviation won the right in January 2012 to enter exclusive negotiations with India to supply 126 Rafale fighters, with experts saying a final deal could be worth $12 billion.

The idea is for Dassault to supply 18 of the twin-engine fighters later this year while the remaining 108 would be made by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd under technology transfer agreements with India.

But negotiations have proved fraught, both under Modi's government and its Congress predecessor, while a committee which is looking into the deal has reportedly found that it was not the cheapest option.

France's defence ministry has said the visit will give the governments a chance to discuss "international affairs and defence industry issues", but there is little doubt Rafale will dominate proceedings.

Le Drian's visit comes barely two months after he also came to India for talks with Parrikar when they both agreed to push on with negotiations.

Modi's right-wing government, which won power in elections last May, has been blowing hot and cold about the progress of discussions.

A defence ministry spokesman said during Le Drian's visit in December that outstanding differences "would be resolved in a fast-track manner".



- Doubts over costs -

But the government has also commissioned a report about the project costs, adding yet more uncertainty.

Speaking at an air show in Bangalore last week, Parrikar said he expected the contract negotiation committee (CNC) to submit its report within weeks.

"I have asked the CNC to speed up the process of completion of the report for us to take a decision on the acquisition of Rafale," he told reporters. 

India's Business Standard newspaper reported earlier this month that the committee had found the Rafale proposal was in fact more expensive than a rival one by Eurofighter for its Typhoon jets.

The paper quoted defence ministry sources as saying the Rafale deal was "effectively dead" although the Indian top brass is still publicly backing it.

If the deal were to collapse, it would be a huge embarrassment for the French government, which is preparing to welcome Modi for his first visit to Europe as premier in April.

Dassault was able to celebrate the signing of a purchase agreement with Egypt last Monday for 24 Rafales, the first foreign sale of the fighters.

While the company's chief executive Eric Trappier has acknowledged the Indian negotiations have taken longer than expected, he told France's Les Echos financial daily recently that "we are not particularly worried".

One of the main sticking points has been over who should carry the can for any problems with the 108 planes that would be made in India, with the government in Delhi wanting guarantees from Dassault.

Dassault however has baulked at the idea of taking responsibility for the larger Indian-made batch of fighters.

India, which has long been the world's largest buyer of defence equipment, is in the midst of a multi-billion-dollar upgrade of ageing hardware, and recently lifted a cap on foreign investment in defence.

While his government has pledged to push forward with purchases which stalled under Congress, Modi wants to end India's status as the world's number one defence importer and to have 70 percent of hardware manufactured domestically by the turn of the decade.

With clouds hanging over the Rafale deal, there have been reports India could instead buy more Russian-made Sukhoi jets.

But the head of the Indian air force said that the Sukhois had different capabilities and could not be seen as a like-for-like replacement, as he called for the Rafale deal to be expedited.

"Rafale has been selected as L1 (lowest bidder)," Arup Raha said in Bangalore.

"It is important that we have the MMRCA (Rafale) and we need to have it in the quickest possible time".

Raha insisted no alternative plan was being considered at the moment but did not rule one out for the future.

"No, we don't have a Plan B as of now. We are only working on Plan A," he said.

France in new bid to nail fighter jet deal with India - Business Insider


----------



## sancho

Well well, what's that? Missed one interesting part in the Brimstone integration news:






Twin launcher for 250Kg LGBs at the inner wingstation! That increases the CAS load to 6 x Brimstone + 4 x Paveway IV or even to 8 x Paveway IV in a single misson.


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## IrbiS

sancho said:


> Well well, what's that? Missed one interesting part in the Brimstone integration news:
> 
> View attachment 195447
> 
> 
> Twin launcher for 250Kg LGBs at the inner wingstation! That increases the CAS load to 6 x Brimstone + 4 x Paveway IV or even to 8 x Paveway IV in a single misson.


That's good. Strike Eagle can carry 52 SDBs.


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## Bang Galore

Abingdonboy said:


> The IAF has zero say, they have made their case now it is in the hands of the MoD, nothing the IAF can say now will change a thing. It is not a question of the IAF not wanting the Rafale enough, it is far, far more complicated than this.



Good though that the French seem to be panicking a bit, that may be pretty much the last chance to salvage any deal. (_btw, me thinks that the Russians during Pres. Putin's visit must have offered something pretty tempting, you can see the MoD's position harden substantially after that visit)_

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## sancho

Iris-T
Brimstone on triple launcher
Storm Shadow
Paveway IV at twin launcher
METEOR
Litening / Reccelite pod


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## IrbiS

sancho said:


> View attachment 195597
> 
> 
> Iris-T
> Brimstone on triple launcher
> Storm Shadow
> Paveway IV at twin launcher
> METEOR
> Litening / Reccelite pod


Now can we say that Sancho and Rafale are officially divorced? If you don't like, I'm sorry and 'll take my words back

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## sancho

IrbiS said:


> Now can we say that Sancho and Rafale are officially divorced



It's about acknowledging and understanding the improvements of the Eurofighter, with an open and unbiased mind. I still think the Rafale and the deal would be good for India, even though far from the potential it had back in 2012. 
While the EF had improved itself well, which simply can't be denied anymore, nor should India simply ignore that. The operational and industrial potential of the EF for 2018 and beyond looks better now, but it's high costs will still be the main problem.

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## topgun047

Chindits: Last Chance For Rafale-Do Or Die !! Empowered Teams For Non-Stop Negotiations, Rajiv Verma To Represent India-Man To Watch Out For !!
*
Empowered teams from the French and Indian side would begin non-stop negotiations, to arrive at a decision about the MMRCA/Rafale. Joint Secretary Rajiv Verma (who got this project after Jt Sec Bal's untimely demise), is the man to watch out for, as his decision/recommendation cant be overruled even by PM Modi !*

The bone of contention is India wants Dassault to take full responsibility of the delivery of the planes, while Dassault has refused the same for the HAL-made/assembled ones.

It was recently decided that such teams (small in composition) would be formed which would be empowered and would be in a position to take decisions, right there and then, as it was wasting too much time, when the French were holding discussions but needed time to go back home to ask their bosses and come back with decisions. All the best Dassault !!

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## IrbiS

sancho said:


> It's about acknowledging and understanding the improvements of the Eurofighter, with an open and unbiased mind. I still think the Rafale and the deal would be good for India, even though far from the potential it had back in 2012.
> While the EF had improved itself well, which simply can't be denied anymore, nor should India simply ignore that. The operational and industrial potential of the EF for 2018 and beyond looks better now, but it's high costs will still be the main problem.


Just for info, Typhoon recently completed tests dropping LGBs and self-designating Paveway IVs. U.K Typhoons can now drop four LGBs on four different targets in a single pass

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## sancho

IrbiS said:


> Just for info, Typhoon recently completed tests dropping LGBs and self-designating Paveway IVs. U.K Typhoons can now drop four LGBs on four different targets in a single pass



The EF can drop LGBs even self designated for quiet some time, which they also have proven in Libya. What they now have added was the Paveway IV LGB, which not only comes with a more useful load for CAS, but also the GPS guidance to make it more precise and use it against pre planned targets.


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## PARIKRAMA

*Russia Lurking In India as Dassault Celebrates in Egypt*

MOSCOW, NEW DELHI, PARIS AND WASHINGTON — When Egypt signed an agreement to purchase 24 Dassault Rafale fighters, it marked a milestone for the program: the first international sale of the jet, which has struggled to find a market outside of its home nation of France.

But what should be a celebratory attitude at the company's Paris headquarters has instead turned glum, as the crown jewel of its expansion plans — a $12 billion deal with India that has been in the works since 2012 — now appears in danger, with Russia hovering nearby in the hope of stealing the contract.

If Dassault can finally cement the Indian deal, it will add 126 fighters to a production facing domestic budget cuts. If Russia can come in and undercut Dassault, it would seriously harm the future of the French fighter, while exacting some measure of revenge on France's decision not to deliver to Russia a naval vessel following the crisis in Ukraine.

In 2012, the Indian Defence Ministry made Dassault its preferred vendor to fill its Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft requirement. The Rafale beat out five other competitors — the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16, Mikoyan MiG-35, Saab JAS 39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon, the latter which was the runner up in the competition.

What seemed like a major win for the Rafale quickly entered a stalemate, however, in large part due to India pressuring Dassault to guarantee work produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the Indian firm that would produce the domestic models of the jet. (Under the contract, Dassault would produce only 18 of the jets before turning production over to HAL.)

Such a guarantee puts a burden on the family-controlled Dassault, which thus far has declined to accept that agreement.

Cost concerns also come into play, with the French saying the cost of integration at HAL facilities would be higher than the normal Rafale because the productivity of labor at HAL is low compared to the plants in France. And after visiting the HAL facilities, Dassault officials concluded there are no economies of scale at HAL to help drive down the cost of the platform.

No resolution appears in sight. Richard Aboulafia, an analyst with the Teal Group, gives Dassault a 40 percent chance of landing the deal.

The obvious alternative to the Rafale is the Eurofighter Typhoon, which was the other finalist after the program downselection. Eurofighter has maintained a presence in Aero India both in 2013 and 2015, and would love to win the contract from its French rival. But another contender has emerged — one with strong ties to India and a desire to spite the French.

*Red Dawn*

Russia has begun a very public campaign to convince Indian officials that Moscow has a better solution on the table.

Sergei Goreslavsky, deputy director of Russia's arms export agency Rosoboronexport, told the RIA Novosti news agency on Feb. 16 that "if [India] needs additional Su-30MKI fighters, then we are ready to work out such an agreement," stressing that New Delhi need only ask.

Goreslavsky is the head of Russia's delegation to the Aero India 2015 air show, which was held last week in Bangalore.

India already operates a large fleet of Sukhoi Su-30 fighters, some of which have been locally produced by HAL. That argument was pushed by Yuri Slyusar, the recently appointed head of the state-owned United Aircraft Corporation, during a Feb. 19 appearance in Bangalore.

"Which aircraft would better suit the needs of the customer? Our obvious competitive advantage is that India is already making these aircraft right here, right now," Slyusar said. "The factories have been built, the technology debugged, the documents transferred, the pilots, engineers and technicians have been trained."

Russia's RSK MiG has also announced plans to throw its hat in the ring with an upgraded version of its developmental MiG-35 if India rejects the Rafale and reopens the tender.

"We have every chance to compete [for the contract]," RIA Novosti quoted MiG chief Sergei Korotkov as saying at Aero India on Feb. 18. "We have not lost hope that a future tender or competition will be announced."

Ruslan Pukhov, director of the Center for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, a Moscow-based defense think tank, said Russia has been lobbying for some time for India to ax the Rafale contract.

"Russia has tried its best to explain to India, as the Eurofighter people have, that it is completely senseless to buy a platform designed in the 1980s for such a huge amount of money," Pukhov said, "especially since the full fleet won't be operational for, let's say, 10 years."

For the money India would spend on Rafale, it could buy from a mature product that they already know how to maintain and operate, Pukhov argued, adding that its combat capability surpasses that of any other aircraft in India's Air Force.

Pukhov, who is also a member of the Defense Ministry's public advisory board, didn't discount that Russia may be working further behind the scenes to influence the situation in Moscow's favor, but stressed the cause is Dassault's inexperience with exporting the Rafale.

"This is totally Russian," François Lureau of consultancy EuroFLconsult and former head of the French procurement office. Until a contract is signed, he said, the Indian deal is seen to be open to competition and the Russians will push the message of French unreliability.

Aboulafia noted that the Russian position is fairly strong, given its industrial presence in India.

"You're looking at two groups who could each decide to walk away," he said of Dassault and the Indian MoD. "India says it loves the Rafale, but has a production line for the cheaper Sukhoi already in India. And while it would be a transformative sale for Dassault, they are essentially telling India it is asking for the impossible."

The strength of Dassault's position depends on whether the Egyptian sale represents a major change in the fortunes of the jet — Aboulafia describes its history as "25 years of trying and multiple defeats snatched from the jaws of victory" — or if the sale was a very specific case.

The financing on the Egyptian sale, which may involve gulf nations and France providing very favorable terms to Egypt, could end up meaning the sale is a one off, rather than the start of a trend for the jet.

On the other hand, the Rafale is still alive in three major competitions in the gulf region. There is a potential agreement with Qatar, in discussion for as many as 36 jets, as well as a potential 60-ship sale to the United Arab Emirates and a smaller contest in Kuwait.

Landing any of those deals could boost Dassault's negotiating strength with India, or at least embolden the company to cut its losses.

*Mistral Fallout?*

Meanwhile, Russia's state-run media outlets last week were littered with statements from officials across Russia's defense industry boasting Russia's proven track record of technology transfer and product delivery.

These comments have been juxtaposed against France's refusal to deliver the first of two French-built Mistral-class amphibious assault carriers to the Russian Navy last year.

Under international pressure, France decided not to hand over the ship as a result of Russia's role in the crisis in Ukraine. The move greatly angered Russia, which has derided France as an unreliable business partner since.

Dmitry Shugaev, deputy director for international affairs at state defense holding Rostec, also pinned the Rafale's troubles on France's reluctance to guarantee the jets in comments carried by the state-run TASS news agency on Feb. 16.

Shugaev said France's failure to deliver the Mistral could also be one of the reasons India has expressed concerns over the deal.

The sentiment in Russia is that snatching the contract, or at least getting India to commit to more Su-30s while it works through its problems with Dassault, would provide some measure of solace in the wake of the scorned Mistral delivery.

Russian officials and pundits have gone out of their way in recent months to cast France as an unreliable trading partner, a supplier that may cancel deals at the last minute in accordance with the political whims of its puppet masters in DC, and have promised to pursue legal damages if Paris does not go through with the delivery.
The fact that Russia is pushing the Mistral issue as a marketing tool does not come as a surprise in Paris.

But a Russian message of the risk of a potential French embargo does not stand up to scrutiny because there would be a technology transfer to India that would deliver "industrial autonomy" on the Rafale, Lureau said.

French Senator Daniel Rainer, who sits on the defense committee, said Russia is using the Mistral as a "commercial argument of circumstance." The circumstance is the suspension of the warship and the commercial interest is the Indian fighter contest.

Dassault, the Direction Générale de l'Armement procurement office and Defense Ministry are well aware of the Russian lobbying effort in India, he said.

Dassault's talks with its prospective Indian partner, HAL, "are on the right track", he said.

While the message of French unreliability may not be a major concern at the political level, public opinion about the Mistral suspension shows a different story.

An opinion poll commissioned by La Tribune business news website showed 64 percent in favor of handing over the two Mistral helicopter ships, with 77 percent concerned about a hit on French jobs. DCNS is prime contractor and STX France builder of the hulls.

Some 69 percent saw the Mistral suspension as helping foreign competitors, such as the UK, US and Russia. The poll found 56 percent saw the French reputation hurt by the decision to withhold delivery, La Tribune reported. IFOP polled 1,001 respondents Jan. 9 to 12 for La Tribune.

In comments made Oct. 29, procurement chief Laurent Collet-Billon told the French Senate defense committee that the Russians tell the Indians that the French are unreliable. "The English, too" say the same, he said.

The message does not appear to be working in New Delhi — yet.

An Indian MoD official said the government has full faith in France as a friend, and its surety to transfer technology as promised. That said, Delhi is also not going to turn its back on Russia. India-Russia defense and strategic ties remain intact with the current government under Narendra Modi as well.

"Russia remains a trusted, well-tried weapon supplier to India," the MoD official said.

By Aaron Mehta in Washington, Matthew Bodner in Moscow, Pierre Tran in Paris and Vivek Raghuvanshi in New Delhi. Andrew Chuter in London also contributed.

Russia Lurking In India as Dassault Celebrates in Egypt

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## SpArK

Crucial meetings with French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian in Delhi tomorrow. 

Could be make or break for the Rafale deal.

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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Crucial meetings with French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian in Delhi tomorrow.
> 
> Could be make or break for the Rafale deal.



Won't change anything, just as his last visits didn't, because it's not a polictial issue, but an industrial with Dassault. So only negotiations with Dassault officials can change that, either they move or we do, but so far both sides seems to stick to their positions and I don't see how the DM or the NDA government can bow down anymore and agree to Dassaults demands.

Btw, in the recent scam about the documents of various ministries that were provided to privat industy companies, there were also arrests of officials of Reliance Industries. Do you think that could have an effect on the RIL / Dassault JV?
I couldn't follow the news completely, but I somewhere read that defence related documents were forwarded too, sounds pretty bad.



topgun047 said:


> *Joint Secretary Rajiv Verma (who got this project after Jt Sec Bal's untimely demise), is the man to watch out for, as his decision/recommendation cant be overruled even by PM Modi !*
> 
> The bone of contention is India wants Dassault to take full responsibility of the delivery of the planes, while Dassault has refused the same for the HAL-made/assembled ones.



Missed your post earlier today, but very interesting stuff, especially about Verma, who said in December:



> *that till the French side agrees to ministry’s demand, which was specified in the original tender, there will be no progress on the matter*. During recent meetings of the negotiations committee, *Verma has been virtually hostile towards the deal*, say sources.



Doesn't look good anymore. 


Some more pics of the EF from IDEX 2015:

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## ACE OF THE AIR

sancho said:


> Won't change anything, just as his last visits didn't, because it's not a polictial issue, but an industrial with Dassault. So only negotiations with Dassault officials can change that, either they move or we do, but so far both sides seems to stick to their positions and I don't see how the DM or the NDA government can bow down anymore and agree to Dassaults demands.
> 
> Btw, in the recent scam about the documents of various ministries that were provided to privat industy companies, there were also arrests of officials of Reliance Industries. Do you think that could have an effect on the RIL / Dassault JV?
> I couldn't follow the news completely, but I somewhere read that defence related documents were forwarded too, sounds pretty bad.
> 
> 
> 
> Missed your post earlier today, but very interesting stuff, especially about Verma, who said in December:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't look good at all anymore.



For a long time Dassault waited for customers but now that seems not to be the case as confirmed orders have been secured from Egypt. 

Situation has changed on both sides France and India. 
France has decided to fight the war against ISIS globally along with other states that are operating French Aircraft, this requires upgrades and replacements for existing fleets as well as newer aircraft. On the other hand NATO is also in the phase of replacing their inventory of aircraft. The competitor of Dassault is Euro Fighter and JAS in Europe, Boeing and Lockheed. F35 is still not ready and it also has a long delivery dates. F-18, F-15 though they have been modified to have a lower RCS do not come close to Rafales. EFT and Gripen also have to be upgraded and also redesigned for aircraft carrier landing which is also time consuming. So the French are seeing that the only available aircraft from the west is their. 

India with her fast depleting aircraft fleet require some thing that is already available in large quantity so that they can have the replacements at a rapid pace. HAL is currently in no place to expand her capacity to what is required by IAF. A sane option for IAF is to purchase more M2K's may be the one ones that are already upgraded to the level as what is being contracted for her existing fleet upgrade. Adding more MKI's would still not make IAF achieve the required number or fleet. Soon the MIG-29 would also require upgrading and the JAG's are also in for upgrade.

More over T-50 and Tejas are also going to require more funding as they would be going into serial production these also include the man power which is also limited at present.

The facts are not looking good Rafales, MKI's EFT or any other US aircraft for about 5 more years. Though finance is not an issue.


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## Hindustani78

SpArK said:


> Crucial meetings with French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian in Delhi tomorrow.
> 
> Could be make or break for the Rafale deal.




Rafale deal: French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian to hold talks with Manohar Parrikar tomorrow - The Economic Times

Defence Ministry had clearly told Dassault that there would be no relaxation in the 'request for proposal' as was agreed by the firm when it submitted its bid. 

The main issue concerns with the pricing and Dassault's reluctance to stand guarantee for the 108 fighters to be built by state-run HAL.


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## sancho

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> For a long time Dassault waited for customers but now that seems not to be the case as confirmed orders have been secured from Egypt.
> 
> Situation has changed on both sides France and India.



The sale to Egypt hasn't changed much, Dassault neither gets a big deal, nor any upgrades like it would had been the case if they had played the UAE or Indian deal smartly, nor does it mean anything to India, UNLESS, the delivery time line of the first squadron to India will be effected by this deal. The reports are not clear so far, lets see about that.


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## Hindustani78

sancho said:


> The sale to Egypt hasn't changed much, Dassault neither gets a big deal, nor any upgrades like it would had been the case if they had played the UAE or Indian deal smartly, nor does it mean anything to India, UNLESS, the delivery time line of the first squadron to India will be effected by this deal. The reports are not clear so far, lets see about that.



I think the sale of Rafale to Egypt are having many points . first and foremost was related to President Putin visit and signing of major defence deals and on other hand to get more clients that Dassault is having production line not only to supply fighter planes to the French military but even to other militaries.


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## sancho

Hindustani78 said:


> and on other hand to get more clients that Dassault is having production line not only to supply fighter planes to the French military but even to other militaries.



Rafale has an export now, but the fighters are diverted from French orders, so doesn't change the total order for the moment. Also it's a pretty small order of just 24 fighters, compared to the potential that was lost or couldn't be fixed yet.

Brazil 36 to 100+ => tender lost
UAE 60 => put on hold because of issues with Dassault
Qatar 24 to 72, depending on source => every year we hear it's close to be signed, but nothing happens
India 126 to 189 => delayed because of issues with Dassault

And the news now is, that the EF consortium is talking to the UAE again and as I showed, there seems to be joint developments with British and Italian side of MBDA too.
Dassault simply missed the chance between 2012 and 13, to easily fix India, UAE and Qatar and basically brought the EF back in the game.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

sancho said:


> Rafale has an export now, but the fighters are diverted from French orders, so doesn't change the total order for the moment. Also it's a pretty small order of just 24 fighters, compared to the potential that was lost or couldn't be fixed yet.
> 
> Brazil 36 to 100+ => tender lost
> *UAE 60 => put on hold because of issues with Dassault
> Qatar 24 to 72, depending on source => every year we hear it's close to be signed, but nothing happens*
> India 126 to 189 => delayed because of issues with Dassault
> 
> And the news now is, that the EF consortium is talking to the UAE again and as I showed, there seems to be joint developments with British and Italian side of MBDA too.
> Dassault simply missed the chance between 2012 and 13, to easily fix India, UAE and Qatar and basically brought the EF back in the game.



EFT is being considered as Oman has already ordered where as UAE, Qatar and Bahrain are considering it as there is also news that Saudi Arabia may be considering to assemble it.


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## CONNAN

*Monday, February 23, 2015*
* Last Chance For Rafale-Do Or Die !! Empowered Teams For Non-Stop Negotiations, Rajiv Verma To Represent India-Man To Watch Out For !! *




Empowered teams from the French and Indian side would begin non-stop negotiations, to arrive at a decision about the MMRCA/Rafale. Joint Secretary Rajiv Verma (who got this project after Jt Sec Bal's untimely demise), is the man to watch out for, as his decision/recommendation cant be overruled even by PM Modi !

The bone of contention is India wants Dassault to take full responsibility of the delivery of the planes, while Dassault has refused the same for the HAL-made/assembled ones.

It was recently decided that such teams (small in composition) would be formed which would be empowered and would be in a position to take decisions, right there and then, as it was wasting too much time, when the French were holding discussions but needed time to go back home to ask their bosses and come back with decisions. All the best Dassault !!

Chindits: Last Chance For Rafale-Do Or Die !! Empowered Teams For Non-Stop Negotiations, Rajiv Verma To Represent India-Man To Watch Out For !!


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## MokshaVimukthi

sancho said:


> Won't change anything, just as his last visits didn't, because it's not a polictial issue, but an industrial with Dassault. So only negotiations with Dassault officials can change that, either they move or we do, but so far both sides seems to stick to their positions and I don't see how the DM or the NDA government can bow down anymore and agree to Dassaults demands.
> 
> Btw, in the recent scam about the documents of various ministries that were provided to privat industy companies, there were also arrests of officials of Reliance Industries. Do you think that could have an effect on the RIL / Dassault JV?
> I couldn't follow the news completely, but I somewhere read that defence related documents were forwarded too, sounds pretty bad.



Not true, the French govt. could provide a very lucrative financial package which will finance this purchase. They could also stand in guarantee for Dassault to ensure ToT on time and for any financial liability. 

I am certain they come bearing gifts, why else would he make this trip ?

But the outlook for Dassault is not looking good.


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## PARIKRAMA

Egypt deal

_The Rafale, frigate and missiles will be covered by specific contracts rather than a global contract, the first official said._
_Egypt will pay for half of the total deal using its own funds, with the other half financed by bank loans, the official said._
_The bank loans will be insured by Coface, the French state-backed export credit guarantee department, the official said. That 50:50 ratio of payment reflects the guidance set by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development._
_The Coface insurance means the French government would repay banks and manufacturers if Egypt fell into payment problems on the loans._
_The size of the down payments would differ for the fighters, frigate and missiles as the amount depends on whether the platform is built. As the Normandie frigate is built, the down payment would be larger than the standard 15 percent._
_BNP Paribas, Credit Agricole and Societé Générale are the banks raising the bank loans for the Egypt contracts, French media have reported._
_Source: In France, Relief Over Rafale Sale to Egypt_

If you give liberal terms like these, with semi guarantee of 50% payment by French government in case Egypt fails to pay what it shows is simply the desperation of Dassault to sell Rafale urgently. *Strangely, why this desperation is not seen versus India where contract is potentially 126+63 vs 24 implying almost 8 times size with sizeable TOT as well as a second line at HAL giving benefit of supplying assurance in case of Nato pressures also (specifically counters all future issues in the category of Mistral fallout where bcz of Nato pressures France did not hand over Mistral to Russia).*

I can clearly spell it out that these types of terms wont be repeated again and again. This move is only to shift France own commitment of buying rafale and rescheduling it via Egypt deal so that its outflow gets limited and still say "we are committed to Rafale" 


I also feel by selling arms to Egypt Dassault is trying its best to pep up that entire region to see who else can buy from them asap.

After reading various sources and full colored views of Russian media and false marketing as well as a propaganda warfare with offerings of anything and everything, France and particularly Dassault needs to wake up badly. Thats all i can say. Hopefully today we may hope to see a more positive approach.. and hints of whats in store. If only Dassault acts a bit smartly, the twin benefits to both nation seems immense.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Parrikar meets French DM over MMRCA, no sign of breakthrough yet*
Published February 24, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK (INN)







France’s defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian who arrived late Monday evening had a 90 minutes closed-door talks with his Indian counterpart Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar in New Delhi earlier today to bring in fresh lease of life to MMRCA deal and on possible sale of 126 Rafale fighter jets to India which is under deadlock for last few months due to differences.

Indian media for last few weeks have been speculating near collapse of the deal with French company, Jean-Yves Le Drian second visit in less than two months is to salvage possible collapse of the sale. Indian defence minister has put 31st March as the deadline with French officials to conclude negotiations which have been going on for last three years. Dassault Aviation won the right in January 2012 to enter exclusive negotiations with India to supply 126 Rafale fighters, with experts saying a final deal could be worth $12 billion.

Various meetings held on sidelines of Aero India 2015 with French officials failed to produce desired results and While Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha stressed that Su-30MKI’s cannot replace Rafale jets since both aircrafts have different roles to fulfill, but then he made a confusing statement saying he wants Medium Multirole Class aircrafts , it can be some other aircraft too it doesn’t have to be Rafale, which surprised many Defence experts.

India currently is sandwiched between need to fund development of other platforms like Tejas MK-2, AMCA and FGFA which are crucial for Indian Air Force’s fleet Modernisation and expansion plans , Bailing out on MMRCA will not be easy but hard call needs to be made said Defence expert Vinayak Shetty .

Only positives French could take from Aero India 2015 was when Parrikar refused to comment on Rafale deal and said that Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC) was still discussing it and he will comment only after they submit their reports, which was expected in next few weeks but again he insisted that negotiation has to be concluded by March end clearly setting a deadline. Earlier Parrikar had said that he is in favour of purchasing additional Su-30MKI if deal with French collapses.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi is scheduled to visit Paris in April and both sides wanted to reach final agreements before his visit so March end deadline was set. Parrikar already has hinted that final call will be taken by Prime Minister’s office whether to proceed or cancel further rounds of negotiations with french officials on purchase of Rafale fighter jets if deadlock is not broken by March end .

Parrikar meets French DM over MMRCA, no sign of breakthrough yet | idrw.org

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## sancho

MokshaVimukthi said:


> I am certain they come bearing gifts, why else would he make this trip ?



You might want to check how often he, or other French government officials visited India since the election last year and what effect these visits had on the MMRCA deal. This is just political support, but French government has no leverage over Dassault, which was pretty evident in the UAE as well, where they were even pretty angry about Dassaults behaviour. This deal is stuck on Dassault taking responsibility till the last fighter is delivered or not and that is only up to Dassault to decide. If they say no, it's up to the Indian government to reject it or not and that's all that we are talking about now.



PARIKRAMA said:


> If you give liberal terms like these, with semi guarantee of 50% payment by French government in case Egypt fails to pay what it shows is simply the desperation of Dassault to sell Rafale urgently. *Strangely, why this desperation is not seen versus India where contract is potentially 126+63 vs 24 implying almost 8 times*



IMO here you can see the difference between dealing with the French government and Dassault!

The Egypt deal is largly negotiated and done by the French Government, not only by giving the guarantees for the loans, but also by diverting Rafale orders for the French forces, to Egypt. They don't have to talk to Dassault for that and since the deal does not include any ToT, or industrial benefits from Dassault, the OEM is pretty much unimportant to fix this deal. This however is not comparable to the Brazilian, UAE and of course the Indian deal, where Dassault is the key, no matter how much good will comes from the French government.
Egypt gives the French Government not only the possibility to save some money in the current budget, by selling the Rafales to Egypt, but also to support Sagem and keep their AASM production line open with orders from Egypt, let alone the additional orders for DCNS with the Fremm. It's a big win for French Government, but just a little one for Dassault, it actually even creates a problem for Dassault, since now they might not be able to provide the 1 x squadron for India or Qatar till the end of 2017 as they planned earlier and depending on how the production line will change now.

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## PARIKRAMA

@halloweene @sancho @Abingdonboy 
Can you sirs say how reliable is info from French 24 news channel is..
I am pasting a tweet from them
*FRANCE 24 English* ‏@France24_en  39m39 minutes ago
VIDEO - FRANCE - Deal to be concluded between France and India on *Rafale* jets http://f24.my/1abUrIk





In the vid (youtube) i saw an interesting costing






How reliable is the reporting? So if the cost in report is true, am i correct to assume that 2012 F3 standard vs 2015 F3R standard is the reason for the price change? or just like every news media this is all smoked weed effect with no realistic connection?


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## Agent_47

> *Only positives French could take from Aero India 2015 was when Parrikar refused to comment on Rafale deal and said that Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC) was still discussing it and he will comment only after they submit their reports, which was expected in next few weeks but again he insisted that negotiation has to be concluded by March end clearly setting a deadline. *Earlier Parrikar had said that he is in favour of purchasing additional Su-30MKI if deal with French collapses.


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## rockstarIN

Stop the damn negotiations and lease some Gripen like some European countries till LCA-MK2 arrives.


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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> How reliable is the reporting? So if the cost in report is true, am i correct to assume that 2012 F3 standard vs 2015 F3R standard is the reason for the price change? or just like every news media this is all smoked weed effect with no realistic connection?



No matter if 2012 or 2015, India evaluated and is buying the F3+ with some customizations. The figures that are spread in the media are mainly estimats, but sadly mix up figures of the original MRCA tender in the early 2000s, with estimates for the MMRCA now. 126 x Mirage 2000-5 could costed around $10 billion Dollar (there is also ofthen a confusion about currency), while the the minute the MMRCA started it was clear, that the costs will be much higher, just as the returns for India (more offsets and more ToT).



rockstarIN said:


> Stop the damn negotiations and lease some Gripen like some European countries till LCA-MK2 arrives.



No point in inducting a new type of fighter as a stop gap, especially when we induct LCA MK1 today too, which basically offers the same capabilities in the FOC version.


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## MokshaVimukthi

sancho said:


> You might want to check how often he, or other French government officials visited India since the election last year and what effect these visits had on the MMRCA deal. This is just political support, but French government has no leverage over Dassault, which was pretty evident in the UAE as well, where they were even pretty angry about Dassaults behaviour. This deal is stuck on Dassault taking responsibility till the last fighter is delivered or not and that is only up to Dassault to decide. If they say no, it's up to the Indian government to reject it or not and that's all that we are talking about now.



That is unlikely. Their earlier visits could have ANY purpose. It could be anything to do from Climate change to Political support for Ukrain. 

This visit on the eve on PM visit to France and during Aero India would have a more specific agenda which could be related to Rafale purchase. 

The sale is strategic for france as well and if it goes through will strengthen Indo French ties, not to mention a signification boost to their employment and job security to its citizens and Billions of $. 

IT is more likely that Dasasault has leverage over the French govt. than the other way around. That is why MNC's give politician funding. So that politicians can utilize French banks and public money to finance Dassault sale.


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## sancho

> *BAE Systems flying high after £72m boost*
> 
> worth £72m to BAE Systems in Lancashire, it has been revealed.
> That will be the company’s share of a £165m contract to deliver further enhancements to the aircraft which has been signed in Abu Dhabi...
> 
> ...*Martin Taylor, Combat Air Managing Director for BAE Systems, said: “By any measure, the number of capability enhancements put in place for Typhoon in the past 12 months has been phenomenal, with Meteor, Storm Shadow, Captor E-scan radar and now Brimstone. *
> 
> “The Phase 3 Enhancements Package (P3E) represents another exciting chapter in the development journey for Typhoon.”...
> 
> ...P3E will see the aircraft receive upgrades including improvements to the maintenance and mission systems.
> 
> The announcement follows a successful feasibility study and a trial installation commissioned by the Ministry of Defence and carried out by BAE Systems last year.
> 
> This latest upgrade, with the integration of the Brimstone 2, opens up the air-to-surface capability of the aircraft even further to cope with a wide variety of targets, including fast moving vehicles.



BAE Systems flying high after £72m boost - Lancashire Evening Post


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## Hindustani78

The French Defence Minister, Mr. Jean Yves Le Drian calling the Union Minister for Defence, Shri Manohar Parrikar, in New Delhi on February 24, 2015.





The French Defence Minister, Mr. Jean Yves Le Drian and the Union Minister for Defence, Shri Manohar Parrikar at a delegation level talks, in New Delhi on February 24, 2015.

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## SpArK

Two Rafale, from French Navy, and two F/A-18 Hornet, from US Navy, in formation over sea.

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## Screambowl

Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call

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## PARIKRAMA

*Livefist* @livefist · 55m55 minutes ago
Sources: Crucial issue of liability for 108 aircraft, choice: joint liability with HAL or Dassault gets supervisory access to HAL line.


*Livefist* @livefist · 2h2 hours ago
Sources: Asked if a conclusion was likely before PM Modi's Paris visit in April, Indian side reiterated March final decision window.


*Livefist* @livefist · 2h2 hours ago
Sources: French Defence Minister was assured that due process was being followed, negotiations committee report would be final word. 2/3


*Livefist* @livefist · 2h2 hours ago
MoD sources: French Defence Minister delegation informed that a decision on Rafale will be taken by end of March at the latest. #MMRCA 1/3


*Livefist* @livefist · 3h3 hours ago
Fine little Rafale vs Flanker dogfight playing out in the Indian press. Be sure it'll get more intense. Everyone primed.


*Livefist* @livefist · 6h6 hours ago
Talks between Indian & French defence min 'positive', my sources tell me. Awaiting specifics. All involved justifiably tight-lipped. #MMRCA


NDTV
*Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call*
Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call

NEW DELHI: French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drain and his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar appear to have sorted out one of the key issues holding up the estimated $15 billion deal to buy 126 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force. *A final decision is expected to be taken before Prime Minister Narendra Modi before his visit to France in April.*

The deal, billed by some as one of biggest defence procurement by any country in a long time, has been on hold for almost a year over the issue of producing the planes here.

Of the 126 jets, 18 are to be purchased ready-made from France. The rest are to be manufactured by the Bengaluru-based Defence Public Sector Unit Hindustan Aeronautics Limited as part of the government's initiative for defence manufacturing in India.

*The French defence manufacturing giant Dassault was hesitant to guarantee the quality of the jets produced in India, since it does not control the process. More importantly, Dassault estimates that the jets can be produced faster, with fewer man hours, than calculated by HAL, which can keep the cost down.*

*HAL has countered that Indian labour isn't as productive as in France and also, the level of automation here is less.*

Senior Defence Ministry Officials told NDTV *the first issue - that of guaranteeing the quality of aircraft produced in India - has been settled. India has given Dassault the option of physically inspecting the jets and guaranteeing the quality. Alternatively, Dassault is free to take a counter-guarantee from HAL on the process and quality of inputs.*

*The second issue - the man hours and the cost -- is now between the two companies to sort out. It will be reflected in the report of the crucial Cost Negotiating Committee, which will be submitted to the ministry shortly.*

Mr Parrikar recently said he would not want to comment on the progress of the deal since it could influence the report.

India had decided to buy the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft in 2012 over rival offers from the United States, Europe and Russia. *The deal was initially worth $12 billion but is now estimated to have jumped to around $15 billion.*



_Good news. So i guess by April 2015 PM Modi will announce Deal Completion with Rafale and Contract signing plus initial amount transfer by June 2015. Rafale may be finally coming to India......._

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## Bhuvan93

*Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call*

*New Delhi: * French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drain and his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar appear to have sorted out one of the key issues holding up the estimated $15 billion deal to buy 126 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force. A final decision is expected to be taken before Prime Minister Narendra Modi before his visit to France in April.

The deal, billed by some as one of biggest defence procurement by any country in a long time, has been on hold for almost a year over the issue of producing the planes here.

Of the 126 jets, 18 are to be purchased ready-made from France. The rest are to be manufactured by the Bengaluru-based Defence Public Sector Unit Hindustan Aeronautics Limited as part of the government's initiative for defence manufacturing in India.




The French defence manufacturing giant Dassault was hesitant to guarantee the quality of the jets produced in India, since it does not control the process. More importantly, Dassault estimates that the jets can be produced faster, with fewer man hours, than calculated by HAL, which can keep the cost down.

HAL has countered that Indian labour isn't as productive as in France and also, the level of automation here is less.

*Senior Defence Ministry Officials told NDTV the first issue - that of guaranteeing the quality of aircraft produced in India - has been settled. India has given Dassault the option of physically inspecting the jets and guaranteeing the quality. Alternatively, Dassault is free to take a counter-guarantee from HAL on the process and quality of inputs.*

The second issue - the man hours and the cost -- is now between the two companies to sort out. It will be reflected in the report of the crucial Cost Negotiating Committee, which will be submitted to the ministry shortly.

Mr Parrikar recently said he would not want to comment on the progress of the deal since it could influence the report.

India had decided to buy the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft in 2012 over rival offers from the United States, Europe and Russia. The deal was initially worth $12 billion but is now estimated to have jumped to around $15 billion.


NDTV report.

Things looking up?  Now for the report from the CNC...Oooops, didn't see the post above.

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## topgun047

This is the latest statement by RM in the parliament, about one month back...
http://www.janes.com/article/47533/indi ... fale-talks

"The Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force's needs," Parrikar said, adding that at INR3.58 billion (USD59.66 million) each, the unit cost of the Su-30MKIs being licence-built by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was less than half that of a Rafale.

Dassault can either accept India's position or they can walk away from the deal.
MoD has other options in mind if this does not go through.

Having said that, I hope the deal is signed soon and India gets its way.
The latest news about joint liability and physical inspection by Dassault, not to mention the counter guarantee given by HAL about following standard process is reasonably positive.
I posted something along the same lines a few days back.



topgun047 said:


> Yes Russia and France have both used this trick before to escape iron clad ToT written in the contract.
> 
> They cited lack of maturity of Indian industry,that did not have the capability perform the processes correctly, due to lack of relevant infrastructure and insisted India either import certain parts which they initially agreed will be manufactured in India or pay extra money to buy the equipment/technology needed to manufacture those parts.
> Its nothing short of blackmail.
> 
> This time MoD has wisened up to such tricks.
> 
> *IMO best compromise is to assess each delay thoroughly
> If HAL is found to be in violation of the practices prescribed by OEM then it should be liable.
> If Dassault is found to be holding up on the transfer of equipment or processes then it should be liable.
> 
> Which brings us to the question who gets to decide which entity is responsible for delay ?
> I think that is the sticking point in negotiations.*


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## airmarshal

sancho said:


> You might want to check how often he, or other French government officials visited India since the election last year and what effect these visits had on the MMRCA deal. This is just political support, but French government has no leverage over Dassault, which was pretty evident in the UAE as well, where they were even pretty angry about Dassaults behaviour. This deal is stuck on Dassault taking responsibility till the last fighter is delivered or not and that is only up to Dassault to decide. If they say no, it's up to the Indian government to reject it or not and that's all that we are talking about now.
> 
> 
> 
> IMO here you can see the difference between dealing with the French government and Dassault!
> 
> The Egypt deal is largly negotiated and done by the French Government, not only by giving the guarantees for the loans, but also by diverting Rafale orders for the French forces, to Egypt. They don't have to talk to Dassault for that and since the deal does not include any ToT, or industrial benefits from Dassault, the OEM is pretty much unimportant to fix this deal. This however is not comparable to the Brazilian, UAE and of course the Indian deal, where Dassault is the key, no matter how much good will comes from the French government.
> Egypt gives the French Government not only the possibility to save some money in the current budget, by selling the Rafales to Egypt, but also to support Sagem and keep their AASM production line open with orders from Egypt, let alone the additional orders for DCNS with the Fremm. It's a big win for French Government, but just a little one for Dassault, it actually even creates a problem for Dassault, since now they might not be able to provide the 1 x squadron for India or Qatar till the end of 2017 as they planned earlier and depending on how the production line will change now.



Self delete.. sorry mate. My post was meant for someone else. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> Egypt deal
> 
> _The Rafale, frigate and missiles will be covered by specific contracts rather than a global contract, the first official said._
> _Egypt will pay for half of the total deal using its own funds, with the other half financed by bank loans, the official said._
> _The bank loans will be insured by Coface, the French state-backed export credit guarantee department, the official said. That 50:50 ratio of payment reflects the guidance set by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development._
> _The Coface insurance means the French government would repay banks and manufacturers if Egypt fell into payment problems on the loans._
> _The size of the down payments would differ for the fighters, frigate and missiles as the amount depends on whether the platform is built. As the Normandie frigate is built, the down payment would be larger than the standard 15 percent._
> _BNP Paribas, Credit Agricole and Societé Générale are the banks raising the bank loans for the Egypt contracts, French media have reported._
> _Source: In France, Relief Over Rafale Sale to Egypt_
> 
> If you give liberal terms like these, with semi guarantee of 50% payment by French government in case Egypt fails to pay what it shows is simply the desperation of Dassault to sell Rafale urgently. *Strangely, why this desperation is not seen versus India where contract is potentially 126+63 vs 24 implying almost 8 times size with sizeable TOT as well as a second line at HAL giving benefit of supplying assurance in case of Nato pressures also (specifically counters all future issues in the category of Mistral fallout where bcz of Nato pressures France did not hand over Mistral to Russia).*
> 
> I can clearly spell it out that these types of terms wont be repeated again and again. This move is only to shift France own commitment of buying rafale and rescheduling it via Egypt deal so that its outflow gets limited and still say "we are committed to Rafale"
> 
> 
> I also feel by selling arms to Egypt Dassault is trying its best to pep up that entire region to see who else can buy from them asap.
> 
> After reading various sources and full colored views of Russian media and false marketing as well as a propaganda warfare with offerings of anything and everything, France and particularly Dassault needs to wake up badly. Thats all i can say. Hopefully today we may hope to see a more positive approach.. and hints of whats in store. If only Dassault acts a bit smartly, the twin benefits to both nation seems immense.



What is your point here? Of course Dassault would want to sell as many as possible.

The lenient deal with Egypt could be as its the first sale. They want to make sure this sale happens so that France can attract more buyers. Whats wrong in that?

French will not let the Indian deal go. Its too big a deal and there is a question of reputation of their product as well that is at stake.


----------



## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Livefist* @livefist · 55m55 minutes ago
> Sources: Crucial issue of liability for 108 aircraft, choice: joint liability with HAL or Dassault gets supervisory access to HAL line.
> 
> 
> *Livefist* @livefist · 2h2 hours ago
> Sources: Asked if a conclusion was likely before PM Modi's Paris visit in April, Indian side reiterated March final decision window.
> 
> 
> *Livefist* @livefist · 2h2 hours ago
> Sources: French Defence Minister was assured that due process was being followed, negotiations committee report would be final word. 2/3
> 
> 
> *Livefist* @livefist · 2h2 hours ago
> MoD sources: French Defence Minister delegation informed that a decision on Rafale will be taken by end of March at the latest. #MMRCA 1/3
> 
> 
> *Livefist* @livefist · 3h3 hours ago
> Fine little Rafale vs Flanker dogfight playing out in the Indian press. Be sure it'll get more intense. Everyone primed.
> 
> 
> *Livefist* @livefist · 6h6 hours ago
> Talks between Indian & French defence min 'positive', my sources tell me. Awaiting specifics. All involved justifiably tight-lipped. #MMRCA
> 
> 
> NDTV
> *Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call*
> Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call
> 
> NEW DELHI: French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drain and his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar appear to have sorted out one of the key issues holding up the estimated $15 billion deal to buy 126 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force. *A final decision is expected to be taken before Prime Minister Narendra Modi before his visit to France in April.*
> 
> The deal, billed by some as one of biggest defence procurement by any country in a long time, has been on hold for almost a year over the issue of producing the planes here.
> 
> Of the 126 jets, 18 are to be purchased ready-made from France. The rest are to be manufactured by the Bengaluru-based Defence Public Sector Unit Hindustan Aeronautics Limited as part of the government's initiative for defence manufacturing in India.
> 
> *The French defence manufacturing giant Dassault was hesitant to guarantee the quality of the jets produced in India, since it does not control the process. More importantly, Dassault estimates that the jets can be produced faster, with fewer man hours, than calculated by HAL, which can keep the cost down.*
> 
> *HAL has countered that Indian labour isn't as productive as in France and also, the level of automation here is less.*
> 
> Senior Defence Ministry Officials told NDTV *the first issue - that of guaranteeing the quality of aircraft produced in India - has been settled. India has given Dassault the option of physically inspecting the jets and guaranteeing the quality. Alternatively, Dassault is free to take a counter-guarantee from HAL on the process and quality of inputs.*
> 
> *The second issue - the man hours and the cost -- is now between the two companies to sort out. It will be reflected in the report of the crucial Cost Negotiating Committee, which will be submitted to the ministry shortly.*
> 
> Mr Parrikar recently said he would not want to comment on the progress of the deal since it could influence the report.
> 
> India had decided to buy the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft in 2012 over rival offers from the United States, Europe and Russia. *The deal was initially worth $12 billion but is now estimated to have jumped to around $15 billion.*
> 
> 
> 
> _Good news. So i guess by April 2015 PM Modi will announce Deal Completion with Rafale and Contract signing plus initial amount transfer by June 2015. Rafale may be finally coming to India......._


Looks like we are a few weeks away from a decision one way or another but there is a lot of positive speak, someone has been playing a very nasty misinformation game lately and Shiv Aroor seems to have alluded to that. 

To think that in just 6 weeks this 3+ years of agony will be over.

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## Bhuvan93

With the distinct possibility of 189 orders + likely that the Malaysian Air Force/UAE will be more confident in following suit (thus further orders) + debacle of Mistral, it is in the French government's and Dassault's interests for this deal to go ahead. 

Was it not the quality of the Mirage-2000 which lead to the IAF yearning for the Rafale? Surely Dassault taking such a myopic view is mis-placed considering the possible knock-on effects (maybe even a possible 6th generation fighter JV between India-France/Dassault)


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Looks like we are a few weeks away from a decision one way or another but there is a lot of positive speak



That depends on what exactly this means:



> *India has given Dassault the option of physically inspecting the jets and guaranteeing the quality. *



It sounds like MoD has given Dassault a compromise option, to fulfill the requirement of the performance guarantee, by given them access to HAL for inspections. If so, we still need to see Dassault accepting the compromise and to be ready to take responsibility for the whole deal. That however was denied so far, so let's see. The ball seems to be back in Dassault's court.

Recap:



> *Eric TRAPPIER:*_
> Everyone is responsible for what he does. We are responsible for organizing the program, that is to say, to provide the license and as such, to provide the tools, documentation, technical assistance, training, *we check quality standards* . *After ... the one who takes the hammer and taps on the sheet metal will be Indian. If he fails, he will be responsible, it' normal.*_

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## SamantK

sancho said:


> That depends on what exactly this means:
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like MoD has given Dassault a compromise option, to fulfill the requirement of the performance guarantee, by given them access to HAL for inspections. If so, we still need to see Dassault accepting the compromise and to be ready to take responsibility for the whole deal. That however was denied so far, so let's see. The ball seems to be back in Dassault's court.
> 
> Recap:


 What *Eric TRAPPIER* said is true but I believe the bone of contention is the design flaws and other stuff which HAL as a producer cannot do as that will have to be done by Rafale engineers
.


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## IND151

Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call | idrw.org


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## SpArK

*Okie. Thread about Fake news by ToI has been deleted by me.*


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## SpArK

Gabriel92 said:


> Some French sources say that India signed for a first batch of 24 rafales.
> 
> L'Inde aurait signé pour l'achat de 24 Rafale




Saw that.


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## kaku1

SpArK said:


> Saw that.
> 
> View attachment 196287
> View attachment 196288
> View attachment 196290


 In my school I never learnt the french.


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## The Great One

SpArK said:


> Saw that.
> 
> View attachment 196287
> View attachment 196288
> View attachment 196290


I don't know any french but I think I read 'quotidien indien Times of India' which if it means what it seems to mean then another one just got trolled by TOI
@Gabriel92


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## SpArK

The Great One said:


> I don't know any french but I think I read 'quotidien indien Times of India' which if it means what it seems to mean then another one just got trolled by TOI
> @Gabriel92



Its a world wide troll...

Hope the guy ( a defence article writer) gets fired for false news without substance.


----------



## s_madaans

LOL.....again TOI in french news paper


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## Gabriel92

kaku1 said:


> In my school I never learn the french.



It says that,The Times of India said today that India signed for 24 Rafale,but Dassault and the French MoD denied it and said that what it is written in times of india,wasn't discussed yesterday and ins't serious.


----------



## kaku1

Gabriel92 said:


> It says that,The Times of India said today that India signed for 24 Rafale,but Dassault and the French MoD denied it and said that what it is written in times of india,wasn't discussed yesterday and ins't serious.


They also caught up in ToI troll.


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## The Great One

SpArK said:


> Its a world wide troll...
> 
> Hope the guy ( a defence article writer) gets fired for false news without substance.


Oh have some merci


Gabriel92 said:


> It says that,The Times of India said today that India signed for 24 Rafale,but Dassault and the French MoD denied it and said that what it is written in times of india,wasn't discussed yesterday and ins't serious.


Our side has also debunked the reports. 
TOI is just useless.


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## SpArK

kaku1 said:


> They also caught up in ToI troll.



I saved myself by deleting that thread.


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## PARIKRAMA

*Now Only A Question Of How Dassault Underwrites HAL-built Rafales*


*Wednesday, February 25, 2015*





*The Indian government is understood to have made it clear that it is no longer a question of whether Dassault Aviation will underwrite the 108 Rafales that HAL proposes to license-build in Bengaluru *(a top MoD official indicated to Livefist that theRFP was explicit about this),* but a question of how it will do so*. Yesterday's hour-long deliberations at the MoD involved discussions on possible options. In very limited conversations with all sides, the following threads become apparent:

Dassault and HAL will need to hammer down licensee/licensor modalities that will pave the way for a possibly complex matrix of agreements on the central issue of liability. It's clear now. It is this set of agreements that will provide a solution to the guarantee issue. The question is how long it would take to do this.
Second, the extent of inspection and post-manufacture testing of equipment at HAL that would be the minimum required for Dassault to underwrite HAL-built jets.
Whether there are any financial implications to additional understandings between HAL and Dassault for the process of underwriting jets produced on the former's production line in Bengaluru. Also, financial implications of the transfer of liability as a result of any additional agreements between HAL and Dassault.
Both sides appear committed to finding a solution before Prime Minister Modi's visit to Paris in April, but is that a realistic time-frame? Sources suggest HAL and Dassault have already held extensive discussions on the liability issue and should be in a position to move quickly.

LIVEFIST: Now Only A Question Of How Dassault Underwrites HAL-built Rafales

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## cloud_9

Gabriel92 said:


> It says that,The Times of India said today that India signed for 24 Rafale,but Dassault and the French MoD denied it and said that what it is written in times of india,wasn't discussed yesterday and ins't serious.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/570514848049557505

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## Abingdonboy

cloud_9 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/570514848049557505


Seriously, wtf? That there is just 0 basis for this and it got to print shows how inept and untrustworthy the Indian media is.


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## Abingdonboy

Anyone questioning whether the MMRCA is just about the plane needs to read:

_*Dassault Aviation, the French manufacturer, has concerns about the carbon-fibre composite material that would be used by HAL to form the skin of the Rafale fighter. Though HAL prides itself in having mastered the use of these composites (which are also used on the indigenous Tejas fighter plane), HAL uses a manual technique. Dassault, on the other hand, uses an automated and much quicker process to manufacture super-critical carbon-fibre composite structures such as the wings of the Rafale. HAL and Dassault will now need to arrive at a consensus on how best to speedily develop carbo-composites to ensure that the time-frame for the manufacture of Rafale fighters is met. A slower process by HAL could mean that Dassault's delivery deadlines for the Rafale will not be met.

French negotiators have indicated that that while they are obliged to train Indian engineers on the assembly of key components of the Rafale fighter, they need specific assurances to ensure that the engineers they train remain deployed and committed to the manufacture of the Rafale, again, to ensure that the jets are manufactured and delivered on time to the Indian Air Force.

The Rafale's primary sensor, the RBE-2 Airborne Electronically Scanned Array, is manufactured in state-of-the-art laboratories in France to exceptionally rigid production and quality standards. HAL's avionics labs, which presently work on radars for the Air Force's Sukhoi 30 have different standards and technologies in place. French sources say HAL engineers will need a change in the work culture and the avionics labs in Bangalore will need upgrading to meet the French standards. This is, again, not seen as a deal breaker, but the French have flagged a concern that the modernization of HAL's technology could be a time-consuming process.*

*While the Ministry of Defence may be aware of HAL's limitations, the government is clear that these are issues that need to be negotiated between Rafale and HAL and that its primary concern is the eventual delivery and performance of the Rafale fighter according to its advertised design specifications. NDTV has learned that the first batch of Rafale fighters assembled in India would take approximately 44 months to be manufactured, though this time-frame is likely to be reduced as HAL gains in experience and systems are fine-tuned. The final, fully made-in-India examples of the jet would likely be constructed quicker.*_

Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call

The Rafale deal is going to bring about a step change in the Indian aviation industry by importing the best practices from one of the world's leading manufacturers. Clearly the MKI's ToT has still not brought India in line with international standards so those proposing an additional LCA/MKI order as an adequate substitute for the Rafale need to think again. It's really quite sad how backwards HAL is in a lot of areas but for sure this deal is a game changer and hopefully it will provide lasting results for the entire aviation sector in India and all subsequent home-grown projects will benefit immensely.


IT WAS ALWAYS ABOUT MORE THAN JUST THE PLANE.

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## PARIKRAMA

*NDTV.com Exclusive: The Sticking Points of India's $12 Billion Rafale Fighter Jet Deal*

NEW DELHI: The 12 billion dollar discussions centred on whether India will buy 126 Rafale fighter jets from France have made some progress, sources said today, a day after Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar met his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian in Delhi.


Major kinks remain in need of ironing, but are unlikely to be deal-breakers, said sources involved in the talks, though they cautioned that it's unlikely that the deal will be signed before Prime Minister Narendra Modi travels to Paris in April. However, by that time, some officials who are part of the negotiating process are hopeful that a statement of intent can be agreed upon by both the Indian and French governments for the contract that has been stalled for nearly three years.

The plan is for France to supply 18 fully-made fighter jets to India, with the other 108 being produced by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautica Limited (HAL) in Bangalore. There is an option for India to acquire 63 more Rafale jets.

Dassault Aviation, the French manufacturer, has concerns about the carbon-fibre composite material that would be used by HAL to form the skin of the Rafale fighter. *Though HAL prides itself in having mastered the use of these composites (which are also used on the indigenous Tejas fighter plane), HAL uses a manual technique. Dassault, on the other hand, uses an automated and much quicker process to manufacture super-critical carbon-fibre composite structures such as the wings of the Rafale. HAL and Dassault will now need to arrive at a consensus on how best to speedily develop carbo-composites to ensure that the time-frame for the manufacture of Rafale fighters is met. A slower process by HAL could mean that Dassault's delivery deadlines for the Rafale will not be met.*

*French negotiators have indicated that that while they are obliged to train Indian engineers on the assembly of key components of the Rafale fighter, they need specific assurances to ensure that the engineers they train remain deployed and committed to the manufacture of the Rafale, again, to ensure that the jets are manufactured and delivered on time to the Indian Air Force.*

*The Rafale's primary sensor, the RBE-2 Airborne Electronically Scanned Array, is manufactured in state-of-the-art laboratories in France to exceptionally rigid production and quality standards.* HAL's avionics labs, which presently work on radars for the Air Force's Sukhoi 30 have different standards and technologies in place. French sources say HAL engineers will need a change in the work culture and the avionics labs in Bangalore will need upgrading to meet the French standards. T*his is, again, not seen as a deal breaker, but the French have flagged a concern that the modernization of HAL's technology could be a time-consuming process.*

*While the Ministry of Defence may be aware of HAL's limitations, the government is clear that these are issues that need to be negotiated between Rafale and HAL and that its primary concern is the eventual delivery and performance of the Rafale fighter according to its advertised design specifications.* NDTV has learned that *the first batch of Rafale fighters assembled in India would take approximately 44 months to be manufactured, though this time-frame is likely to be reduced as HAL gains in experience and systems are fine-tuned. The final, fully made-in-India examples of the jet would likely be constructed quicker.*

Hindustan Aeronautics, for its part, is positive about its capabilities in manufacturing the Rafale fighter. At Aero India, Asia's largest air show, last week, the new HAL chairman Suvarna Raju told reporters that HAL "is the lead production agency for the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (ie the Rafale) which gives us [the rights] for manufacture and testing. We don't want others to stand guarantee for our product." This would be welcome news for Dassault as it seeks to close the Rafale deal, negotiations for which have continued for more than three years.

The Dassault Rafale was shortlisted by the Indian Air Force as its fighter of choice in a fly-off involving some of the world's leading fighters in 2011. For years, the Air Force has made it clear, that the induction of the Rafale is imperative to ensure that its dwindling fleet strength is replenished with modern aircraft to counter the rapidly modernising Chinese and Pakistani Air Forces.

*NDTV.com Exclusive: The Sticking Points of India's $12 Billion Rafale Fighter Jet Deal*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

All reports on rafale for today a comprehensive update, i like the way all diversified views are thrown in.. lol... 
_______________________________________________________________________
Indian Media Offer Little Clarity on Rafale Deal After Ministers Meet
(Source: compiled by Defense-Aerospace.com; published Feb 25, 2015)

Indian Media Offer Little Clarity on Rafale Deal After Ministers Meet

PARIS --- Indian media today offered conflicting reports after the French and Indian defense ministers met in New Delhi yesterday to resolve stalled negotiations over India’s long-delayed deal to buy 126 Rafale fighters from France.

The reports ranged from the non-committal (No Clarity Yet On Rafale Deal) to the affirmative (India inks a deal for supply of 24 Rafale aircraft), but the most plausible and most informative report was published by NDTV, and is reproduced here:

*Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call*

(Source: NDTV.com; Published February 25, 2015 - *00:32 IST*

NEW DELHI --- French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drain and his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar appear to have sorted out one of the key issues holding up the estimated $15 billion deal to buy 126 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force. A final decision is expected to be taken before Prime Minister Narendra Modi before his visit to France in April.

The deal, billed by some as one of biggest defence procurement by any country in a long time, has been on hold for almost a year over the issue of producing the planes here.

Of the 126 jets, 18 are to be purchased ready-made from France. The rest are to be manufactured by the Bengaluru-based Defence Public Sector Unit Hindustan Aeronautics Limited as part of the government's initiative for defence manufacturing in India.

The French defence manufacturing giant Dassault was hesitant to guarantee the quality of the jets produced in India, since it does not control the process. More importantly, Dassault estimates that the jets can be produced faster, with fewer man hours, than calculated by HAL, which can keep the cost down.

HAL has countered that Indian labour isn't as productive as in France and also, the level of automation here is less.

Senior Defence Ministry Officials told NDTV the first issue - that of guaranteeing the quality of aircraft produced in India - has been settled. India has given Dassault the option of physically inspecting the jets and guaranteeing the quality. Alternatively, Dassault is free to take a counter-guarantee from HAL on the process and quality of inputs.

The second issue - the man hours and the cost -- is now between the two companies to sort out. It will be reflected in the report of the crucial Cost Negotiating Committee, which will be submitted to the ministry shortly.

Mr Parrikar recently said he would not want to comment on the progress of the deal since it could influence the report.

India had decided to buy the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft in 2012 over rival offers from the United States, Europe and Russia. The deal was initially worth $12 billion but is now estimated to have jumped to around $15 billion.

Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call
(ends)


*Indian Press Reports Offer No Clarity on Rafale Deal*
(Source: compiled by Defense-Aerospace.com; published Feb 25, 2015)
PARIS --- Below is a selection of excerpts from the Indian media reports on the Rafale negotiations after visiting French defense minister Jean-Yves Le Drian met with his Indian counterpart, Manohar Parrikar.

Originally reported as scheduled to last 90 minutes, the meeting in fact lasted just half that time, but little guidance was offered by officials on what the meeting achieved – or didn’t – other than the NDTV article above.

Here is our selection, with the latest first:

*India Inks A Deal for Supply of 24 Rafale Aircraft*

(Source: Times of India; published Feb 25, 2015 -- *10.10 AM IST*

KOLKATA --- According to sources in the Ministry of Defence, India has inked a deal for the supply of 24 Rafale aircraft to the Indian Air Force (IAF). If this is correct, it is clear that India is testing waters, so far as a full-fledged tie-up with Dassault is concerned.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-24-Rafale-aircrafts/articleshow/46364875.cms



*No Clarity Yet On Rafale Deal*

(Source: The Asian Age; published Feb 25, 2015 – *06:42 a.m.*

NEW DELHI --- India and France continued discussions on Tuesday on the proposed multi-billion dollar 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal, but it was unclear whether any firm understanding had been reached to clear the roadblocks in contract negotiations.

No clarity yet on Rafale deal | The Asian Age


*India, France Once Again Try to Clear Hurdles In Path of Rafale Deal*

(Source: Times of India; published Feb 25, 2015 -- *06.30 AM IST*

NEW DELHI --- India and France are trying to salvage the stalled $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project for 126 Rafale fighters, with defence minister Manohar Parrikar once again holding talks with his visiting French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian on Tuesday.

"The two sides discussed the proposed MMRCA project as well as reviewed the ongoing ones for upgrade of 51 Mirage-2000 jets (Rs 17,547 crore) and construction of six Scorpene submarines (Rs 23,562 crore) at Mazagon Docks," said an official.

India, France once again try to clear hurdles in path of Rafale deal - The Times of India


*Deadlock Over Rafale Persists*

(Source: The Hindu; published February 25, 2015 -- *00:44 IST *

NEW DELHI --- Visiting French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian held talks with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar here on Tuesday in a bid to break the deadlock over negotiations for 126 Rafale fighter aircraft worth over $20 billion.

Though specific details were not forthcoming, Defence Ministry officials indicated that the issue came up for discussion and both sides decided to continue negotiations.

Deadlock over Rafale persists - The Hindu


*French Defence Minister Meets Manohar Parrikar to Push Rafale Deal*

(Source: Press Trust of India; published Feb 24, 2015 -- *09.24PM IST*

NEW DELHI --- French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian today held talks here with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar to salvage the multi-billion Rafale contract even as a deadlock continues to hold up the deal.

As the two ministers met, the Cost Negotiating Committee (CNC) is understood to have submitted its report to the Ministry of Defence.

Le Drian met with Parrikar for 45 minutes at his South Block office here during which the French Minister took up the issue of the Rafale deal.

The Ministry of Defence as well as the French officials remained tight-lipped over what transpired at the meeting. "This (visit) was a serious attempt to thrash out the issues that continue to dog the deal," official sources said even as they refused to share any more information.

French defence minister meets Manohar Parrikar to push Rafale deal - The Economic Times


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## Archie

I Think, that if Rafale deal is to be pursued, then first of all India must import atleast 2 Sqds directly from France
We know that HAL could take upto 10 years to deliver 108 Jets
So its better to induct 36-54 Rafale directly from France, so that we can retire crash prone Mig 27


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## PARIKRAMA

that was the original idea given by @sancho .. only thing he said it was more possible in case of EFT (lol). technically now since Egypt 24 and French own needs come in, the orders of India will be executed in two prong fashion. Surely first 18 needs to meet MMRCA condition which will be taken care. But since HAL produced ones needs to roll out by 44 months, even if we take directly from French say another 36-54 nos (besides 18 already), the timeline will be at least 48 months plus from the date of signing for this batch.


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## CONNAN



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## egodoc222

Stephen Cohen said:


> There are two parts of Rafale Acquisition
> 
> 1 Capability of IAF to face A two front war
> 
> 2 Technology transfer to India and an enhancement of our Industrial capabilities
> 
> The FIRST part can ALSO be done through MORE Su 30 mki which are being upgraded
> AND FGFA
> 
> The Second part is MORE Important ie Technology transfer
> 
> When you spend so much money ; you should get FULL value for your money


i dont understand this obsession with tot...hal is simply not capable...with those old fcuktard engineers...cannot absorb the tech....their in hal like in any psu experience(how old you are) matters than how talented you are...
we are manufacturing engine for su30...sourcing all components domestically.
.why couldn't they use the knowledge frm in kaveri and tejas projects...
they didnt even modernize the assembly...for tejas even after eating so much money!!!
i think tot is overrated(considering hal capability) wasting so much money!!
buy similar no. off the shelf...we get them in time at lower price!!!


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Anyone questioning whether the MMRCA is just about the plane needs to read...
> 
> ...IT WAS ALWAYS ABOUT MORE THAN JUST THE PLANE.



Didn't we said that for a long time? One thing on the article strikes me though, HAL is not suppose to produce the RBE 2 AESA radar, but BEL, so are they blaming HAL here for no reason? On the bright side, it tells a lot about the level of our composite know how, when we are able to replace modern European composites too, the only issue seems to be the manufacturing process and that's exactly where MMRCA is suppose to improve India, among other things. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> that was the original idea given by @sancho .. only thing he said it was more possible in case of EFT



Not exactly, I showed that the EF is the fastest choice, IF we wanted to counter the squad number issue, because it is not limited to a single production line like the Rafale. Germany alone will get 25 x EF's T3A's till the end of 2017, which shows that we could have got 2 or even 3 squads of EF if we wanted. Rafale now with the Egypt deal in between, might be even delayed to mid 2018, till we get our first squad. That, still will be according to the tender rules (delivery 3 years after signature), but makes the difference in fast delivery pretty obvious. Adding more Rafale orders then from France doesn't get us much anymore, since that easily take till 2019/20 till we get them.
The sad thing is, that if things would had went "normal" after the selection of Rafale in 2012, we might had got the first squad even by 2016 and then additional orders from France were even likely. Now we can be happy if the deal finally gets trough.

In the meantime:



> *Saudi Typhoons Use Paveway IV Bombs on ISIS*
> 
> *Typhoon combat jets flown by the Royal Saudi Air Force have used Paveway IV precision-guided bombs to strike Islamic State terrorists, marking the first time the weapon has been launched in anger from the Eurofighter-built aircraft*, according to gulf region sources...
> 
> ...*The strikes by the Saudis come little more than a year* after the US State Department lifted a long-time block on the gulf state purchasing the weapon...
> 
> ...The British government and its Typhoon partners Germany, Italy and Spain moved to resolve that problem this week, announcing at the IDEX show in Abu Dhabi a £72 million deal *to integrate Brimstone on Typhoon by 2017*.
> 
> British Typhoon pilots have been practicing using the Paveway IV weapon, though. *The RAF recently took part in the Red Flag exercises in Nevada, where up to 20 of the bombs were dropped*.



Saudi Typhoons Use Paveway IV Bombs on ISIS

Nice job by the Saudis and pretty interesting stuff coming from the EF's at Red Flag too, not to mention that the latest EF magazin once again hints on Captor E's use in SEAD.

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## Bang Galore

> *The Indian government is understood to have made it clear that it is no longer a question of whether Dassault Aviation will underwrite the 108 Rafales that HAL proposes to license-build in Bengaluru *(a top MoD official indicated to Livefist that theRFP was explicit about this),* but a question of how it will do so*



If this is correct and Dassault agrees, it is clear that the events of the last few weeks have forced a rethink and the panic rush to India by the French DM makes it clear that the MoD is forcing the issue.


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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> If this is correct and Dassault agrees, it is clear that the events of the last few weeks have forced a rethink and the panic rush to India by the French DM makes it clear that the MoD is forcing the issue.



Actually we still don't have proper infos on who said what. The NDTV and Livefist article basically talks about India giving Dassault the possibility to give the guarantees now, by getting closer to Dassaults demands on inspections, while making once again clear, that the performance guarantee is non negotiable. The last statement of the Dassault CEO however, stated the opposite and the French DM can't speak for Dassault, nor do we actually have a statement from him about the guarantees, unless I missed it. It all remains on Dassault again and if they are willing to accept it or not?



> The Sticking Points of India's *$12 Billion* Rafale Fighter Jet Deal





> *$15 Billion* Rafale Deal Could be Saved Before PM's April Trip to Paris





> Indian MoD and Dassault Aviation may have arrived to an understanding regarding the guaranteeing, costs and man hour issues in the *$20 billion* Indian MMRCA deal to buy 126 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.



Still funny to see, how after so many years, nobody has actually a clue how much the deal actually will cost.

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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> Actually we still don't have proper infos on who said what. The NDTV and Livefist article basically talks about India giving Dassault the possibility to give the guarantees now, by getting closer to Dassaults demands on inspections, while making once again clear, that the performance guarantee is non negotiable. The last statement of the Dassault CEO however, stated the opposite and the French DM can't speak for Dassault, nor do we actually have a statement from him about the guarantees, unless I missed it. It all remains on Dassault again and if they are willing to accept it or not?



Ya, It's why I prefaced my remarks with _"If this is correct"._ We will know where this deal is going before the April visit of Narendra Modi to Paris. Makes little sense to scrap the deal prior to that visit & leave a bad taste in the mouths of the french. However if it does not get signed by then & if we are still hearing of massive differences, the deal probably won't be going anywhere.

_P.S. :After yesterday's article in ToI, I think it is safest to leave all news on this deal well alone. Too many people feeding too much rubbish that it has now become almost impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff._ _You point out pretty much the same with the stated statements of both the chief of Dassault as well as one from the French MoD directly contradicting this bit of news._



sancho said:


> Still funny to see, how after so many years, nobody has actually a clue how much the deal actually will cost.



Ya, almost like you can get any quote from $15 billion to $30 billion. Like it was small change.

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## PARIKRAMA



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## halloweene

Not really related, didn't find where to post it but definitely worth a look. Grab a drink, fasten your seatbelt and enjoy for four minutes....





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=843646375706393

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Didn't we said that for a long time?


Indeed but what do certain people keep saying? "But the MiG-35/MKI is cheaper" (unit cost that is). Failing to understand the MMRCA was always about more than just the plane is the reason for a lot of ire directed at the Rafale and it is more than a little frustrating to see the same old nonsense in every Rafale/MMRCA thread.

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## MokshaVimukthi

halloweene said:


> Not really related, didn't find where to post it but definitely worth a look. Grab a drink, fasten your seatbelt and enjoy for four minutes....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=843646375706393



I guess they are flying 100 feet off the ground. What happens to the ground warning receive ? does it get switched off ?


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## PARIKRAMA

Courtesy Olybrius

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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 196782
> 
> View attachment 196783
> 
> View attachment 196784
> 
> View attachment 196785
> 
> 
> Courtesy Olybrius



Interesting but also strange, Rafale gets an additional A2G weapon, but it's neither a low collateral damage, SEAD or heavy attack weapon, but a 1000lb GBU 16.The same weapon that proved not to be that useful at the EF in the Libyan conflict. 

The outlook for the Rafale NG (around 2025) is interesting though, with credible modifications around the airframe, which might make the Rafale much larger. Most likely forced by the same necessity that we see at the N-LCA development now, to increase the internal fuel capacity to carry less external fuel tanks. But while the N-LCA needs it to free hardpoints, Rafale might need it to counter the lower fuel capacity of it's CFTs. More internal fuel + CFTs then makes way for stealthy weapon pods in future!


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## sancho

Not related to Rafale yet, but may have the potential soon:



> *Indian corporate scandal will test Modi’s relations with business*
> 
> It resembled a low-grade spy caper: a bungled late-night break-in aimed at stealing documents from India’s oil ministry in New Delhi, complete with intruders caught with fake identity cards and a getaway car disguised as an official government vehicle.
> 
> But since last week’s break-in, more than a dozen arrests have been made, including employees at four of India’s most prominent industrial companies. *Many analysts now view the country’s fast-developing corporate espionage scandal as a sign of something rather more serious: a shot across the bows from prime minister Narendra Modi, as he tries to burnish his anti-corruption credentials*...
> 
> ...Officials working for three other major energy-related groups and owned by prominent industrial tycoons were also held,* including an employee of billionaire Mukesh Ambani’s Reliance Industries*, the country’s largest private company by revenue...
> 
> ...Even so, the theatrical nature of the police sting operation that led to the arrests unleashed a storm of media attention, as did the high-profile names of the groups with arrested employees — which also included the Essar conglomerate, and *Reliance Power, a business owned by billionaire Anil Ambani, who is Mukesh Ambani’s younger brother*...



http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1c47cb82-bcec-11e4-a917-00144feab7de.html#slide0

Other reports said, that documents of the Defence and Finance Ministries were leaked too and depending on RIL's involvement in this (no matter wrt which Ministry), it can have a huge impact.


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## PARIKRAMA

sancho said:


> Not related to Rafale yet, but may have the potential soon:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1c47cb82-bcec-11e4-a917-00144feab7de.html#slide0
> 
> Other reports said, that documents of the Defence and Finance Ministries were leaked too and depending on RIL's involvement in this (no matter wrt which Ministry), it can have a huge impact.



Well honestly whether its adani or ambani - anyone of the name and PM's name will be dragged at some point of time especially by opposition (read congress especially Raga post vacation of course) and by Arvind Kejriwal... Surely, the investigation and its impact must be contained at some level. Good news is even in Rafale deal, RIL's role as of now seems limited (other than wings part manaufacturer which may be used as a supply chain unit to HAL perhaps). But since HAL produced rafale is at least 44 months away from date of contract signing, its impact would be limited. If in case, RIL has a much bigger role via Reliance Aerospace and is a much bigger Supply Chain partner, then yes there is a chance it may blow out to be a bigger controversy.


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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> Well honestly whether its adani or ambani - anyone of the name and PM's name will be dragged at some point of time especially by opposition (read congress especially Raga post vacation of course) and by Arvind Kejriwal... Surely, the investigation and its impact must be contained at some level. Good news is even in Rafale deal, RIL's role as of now seems limited (other than wings part manaufacturer which may be used as a supply chain unit to HAL perhaps). But since HAL produced rafale is at least 44 months away from date of contract signing, its impact would be limited. If in case, RIL has a much bigger role via Reliance Aerospace and is a much bigger Supply Chain partner, then yes there is a chance it may blow out to be a bigger controversy.



It's not about the political side or the possible relation of these people to the PM, but the fact that if RIL as a company has paid Government officials or workers to get their hands on classified documents and gained benefits with them, be it in the Oil or maybe the defence sector. If RIL is involved in this in any manner, it would more than difficult to keep them involved in a deal that is about several billions of taxpayers money, especially since this can be a major scam. Btw, their role is not limited at all, since they are Dassaults prime production partner in India and a good chunk of Rafales parts would be produced from them and diverted to HAL for the final assembly.


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## PARIKRAMA

*Thales Says Offset Demands Becoming Onerous as India Delays Jets*

(Bloomberg) -- Thales SA, a member of the Rafale fighter consortium that’s waited three years for India to sign a 126-jet order, said emerging nations are tying increasingly demanding levels of employment and technology transfer to defense deals.

While arms-makers have had to meet “offset” requirements in countries buying their gear for decades, recent requests go far beyond simple revenue-creation stipulations that could be satisfied through activities not directly related to weapons deals, Thales Chief Executive Officer Patrice Caine said today.

The Rafale order, the world’s largest ongoing military-jet tender with a value of $11 billion, has been held up by issues concerning technology transfer and Indian demands that Dassault Aviation SA, the plane’s designer, guarantee the quality of work done in the Asian state, people familiar with the matter said last month. Thales supplies the Rafale’s radars and missile-guidance system, equivalent to about 25 percent of the aircraft’s worth.


“Clients expect a transfer of technologies, employment with added value, local implantation,” Caine said at a press conference in Paris after Thales reported full-year earnings. “We must accompany this movement, meet their demands.”

Dassault, Thales and Safran SA, which makes the Rafale’s engines, have been awaiting confirmation of the Indian contract since the model was chosen in January 2012 over the Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin Corp. F-16, Boeing Co. F/A-18, Saab AB Gripen and MiG-35 from Russia’s United Aircraft Corp.

*Local Partner*
Having originally indicated that it would sign off on the deal in a matter of weeks, India had said in August that closure would come by the end of last year. While the first 18 planes are due be manufactured in France, the other 108 would be made under license locally by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

The price of the fighters may be a further sticking point, given that the proposal is based around a tender first issued in 2007, two Indian air force officials said in August.

The deal with India was announced as the first export contract for the Rafale, though following the delay it seems set to be superseded by this month’s purchase of 24 of the twin-engine fighters by Egypt.

BAE Systems Plc, Europe’s largest defense company, said last month that it has given India the option of making howitzers locally to help conclude a deal to equip an army strike force responsible for patrolling the Chinese border.

Caine, who became CEO two months ago, spoke after Thales posted a 12 percent drop in adjusted net income to 562 million euros ($630 million) following a 117 million-euro hit from warship-maker DCNS SA, in which the Neuilly-Sur-Seine-based company has a 35 percent stake.

Earnings before interest and tax should this year gain about 15 percent to at least 1.13 billion euros, he said.
Thales Says Offset Demands Becoming Onerous as India Delays Jets - Bloomberg Business


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## PARIKRAMA

*Livefist* @livefist · 2h2 hours ago
Negotiations done? Indian MoD tells Parliament proposal to buy Rafales "under consideration of Govt, however, no agreement has been signed".






*Livefist* @livefist · 2h2 hours ago
Here's the Indian MoD's statement in Parliament on the Rafale deal. Doesn't talk of 'negotiations' any more. #MMRCA









*Livefist* @livefist · 2h2 hours ago
.@Aviaponcho Well, if they mean negotiations are over and final report is before the govt, it's certainly forward movement. @G_Steuer


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## PARIKRAMA

Interesting Camo job... Wonder what its potraying


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## I FLY HIGH

wanglaokan said:


> IAF is mind stuck like a Child wanna a toy?


PPPPPP


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## MokshaVimukthi

This sounds like Plan B to me. ........... prospect of Rafale is looking progressively dimmer.

Want immediate delivery of 5th-gen fighter: India to Russia

Bulk deliveries of the T-50 jet for Russian forces will commence in *2016*. India wants Russia to deliver 144 jets. Russian go-ahead will give the *IAF necessary number of planes to phase out ageing MiG-21s and MiG-27s. In a war scenario with China, an aircraft such as the T-50 would be ideal for missions deep into Tibet*. Beijing has a very good border infrastructure that poses threat to India.


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## PARIKRAMA

The plan B if what has been reported is true, is speculated one as of now.
i had posted it in FGFA thread where a reporter from The telegraph has quoted from sources within MOD about India going the same MKI route for FGFA. 

Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 154

_*New Delhi has suggested to Moscow that the T-50 fighter jet (being built as an FGFA) can be supplied to the Indian Air Force (IAF) while the research to improve upon the aircraft can carry on simultaneously. The same formula of graded improvements was applied in the case of Sukhoi-30 MkI jets.*_
*
Bulk deliveries of the T-50 jet for Russian forces will commence in 2016. India wants Russia to deliver 144 jets. Russian go-ahead will give the IAF necessary number of planes to phase out ageing MiG-21s and MiG-27s. In a war scenario with China, an aircraft such as the T-50 would be ideal for missions deep into Tibet. Beijing has a very good border infrastructure that poses threat to India.
*
Unfortunately Rafale will be signed for sure as FGFA comes in Heavy class and this move is only to counter the planned deployment of 5G birds in China. For the record, in an offical Chinese Airforce video the 5G birds were featured leading to speculation of maturity of the project and very close to operational deployment of the bird J20 (read J-20 stealth fighter appears in PLA recruitment video | idrw.org *J-20 stealth fighter appears in PLA recruitment video)
*
Looking from future perspective, and deployment of 5G birds in South East Asian theater, if report is true, then the logic behind it makes sense. But then again this is no Plan B for MMRCA. This is a strategic decision which is more logical then blindly starting FGFA induction in 2020+ and being naked with less squadrons. Moreover, FGFA is never intended to be replacement of Mig21/27 just like rafales are not too..

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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> Interesting Camo job... Wonder what its potraying



A Tiger, it's for an exercise called "Tiger Meet", where the participating aircrafts (including transporters or helicopters) show off with some great Tiger camos:

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 567

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 653


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## PARIKRAMA

*Livefist* @livefist · 1h1 hour ago
*Sources: HAL-Dassault meetings lined up this week to fix Rafale licensee-licensor issues and evolve damages/guarantee arrangement*. #MMRCA

1 Mar 2015


@halloweene : So whom should we expect? UYou Think CEO Dassault Eric Trappier would be personally here or Whom you feel may attend this crucial meeting? Especially since it involves negotiation and finalization of teething issues with HAL

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## PARIKRAMA



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## IrbiS



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## halloweene

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Livefist* @livefist · 1h1 hour ago
> *Sources: HAL-Dassault meetings lined up this week to fix Rafale licensee-licensor issues and evolve damages/guarantee arrangement*. #MMRCA
> 
> 1 Mar 2015
> 
> 
> @halloweene : So whom should we expect? UYou Think CEO Dassault Eric Trappier would be personally here or Whom you feel may attend this crucial meeting? Especially since it involves negotiation and finalization of teething issues with HAL



i honestly do not know.


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## SpArK



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## halloweene

SpArK said:


>


Absolutely . I hope i'll know more the 11th at yearly Dassault press conference.

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> i honestly do not know.



What about the recent statements of the MoD wrt giving Dassault inspection rights, in return for guarantees of the full production? So far I didn't saw any official reaction from Dassault on that. What's your estimate, will Dassault finally move?


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## sancho

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/571587242054983680
Retd Air Marshal of Indian Air Force


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## airmarshal

Is India buying only the land based version or carrier based version as well?


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## SQ8

For those hit by Rafale Blues. An alternative Timeline.

Boeing F/A-18IN "वरटा" / Varata. MMRCA

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## tsarbomba

Oscar said:


> For those hit by Rafale Blues. An alternative Timeline.
> 
> Boeing F/A-18IN "वरटा" / Varata. MMRCA
> 
> View attachment 198667
> 
> View attachment 198665
> 
> View attachment 198666


They rejected it for some reason, and besides, the MMRCA aircrafts will be in service for ~3 decades. The F/A-18 doesn't seem very attractive when you take that into picture.


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## sancho

airmarshal said:


> Is India buying only the land based version or carrier based version as well?



The carrier version would only come under consideration for IAC 2, as additional Migs and NLCAs are considered for the first 2 carriers.



Oscar said:


> For those hit by Rafale Blues. An alternative Timeline.



Add CFTs, the weapon pod and put it on an Indian carrier and you might see a realistic choice for IN.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Add CFTs, the weapon pod and put it on an Indian carrier and you might see a realistic choice for IN.


 Really sir? You think the IN are going to be interested in a "pimped up" 4.5 gen fighter (as lovely as she is) to fly off her next generation of carriers whose induction will begin only in the mid 2020s and will be expected to serve for over 30 years? The F-18's future growth is limited when compared to something like the Rafale but even then the Rafale's longevity/relevance is barely a decade longer than the F-18s would be.

Realistically it needs to be a 5th gen fighter for the IAC-2 but the Rafale-M may get a look in because of the IAF's induction of the type but the issue of obsolescence will persist beyond, say, 2040.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Really sir? You think the IN are going to be interested in a "pimped up" 4.5 gen fighter (as lovely as she is) to fly off her next generation of carriers whose induction will begin only in the mid 2020s and will be expected to serve for over 30 years?



Well they even take low capable 4th gen fighters for the first to carriers and NLCA as we know will arrive only beyond 2020 to, which makes the Silent Hornet far more capable than anything Indian Navy will have right?  So, yes they will be interested in it, which however doesn't mean that they will put all their hopes only on the F18SH, but as a secondary fighter. be it next to F35Cs, N-FGFAs or N-AMCAs. As I told you before, it's the most cost-effective choice if we have to buy back fighters for EMALS and it's also a logical choice to base a naval AMCA on, if we could get a team up with Boing approved. That's practically what Boeing is offering S. Korea, a KFX based on the F18SH and possibly could be an offer to DRDO too, which again shows that it makes more sense to develop AMCA as carrier fighter first, but that's another issue.



Abingdonboy said:


> The F-18's future growth is limited when compared to something like the Rafale but even then the Rafale's longevity/relevance is barely a decade longer than the F-18s would be.



Only based on the production timeline, but not on technical upgrades since the USN will keep using it in high numbers for decades too. 
Rafales potential in India is far lower today, than it was in 2012 or before, because Dassault delayed things so far, till more options were available. NLCA, EMALS, US government more open to share and the Russians were always an option anyway. Just sad, when you consider what potential Rafale and France as a whole had in India, but that's how it is now.


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## PARIKRAMA

*Rafale equipped with Meteor, at nightfall, after a test flight*
*Courtesy Last pic @ Olybrius*

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## PARIKRAMA

Some interesting tweets by Saurav Jha

*Saurav Jha* ‏@SJha1618  3h3 hours agoNew Delhi, Delhi
As I see it, this whole *Rafale* thing is contingent on our negotiations with the Russkis on the PMFI/FGFA/PAK-FA.



*Saurav Jha* ‏@SJha1618  3h3 hours agoNew Delhi, Delhi
*BTW HAL has already invested 400 crores for the Rafale license build program. So they obviously expect this deal to happen.
*
If what Saurav Jha claims is true and HAL had really invested 400 Crs then Rafale is coming for sure or else Rs 400 crs down the drain means severe rap from CAG or other government audit bodies. So the question is when the contract will be signed i guess..

for instance where they had invested then this is what i found
“HAL as a lead production agency will do its role.” It has already taken 400 acres of land for the programme and would await directions of the government - Suvarna Raju

Excerpts from News Releases  - SP's Show News

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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> BTW HAL has already invested *400 crores for the Rafale* license build program. So they obviously expect this deal to happen.
> 
> for instance where they had invested then this is what i found
> “HAL as a lead production agency will do its role.” It has already taken *400 acres of land* for the programme and would await directions of the government - Suvarna Raju



I think there is a confusion, since the link itself says:



> The HAL Chairman, Suvarna Raju announced that the Government of Karnataka had allocated *610 acres of land* in Tumkuru district and efforts are on to start the works over there. *The development cost for the helicopter complex would be about Rs. 400 crores*



So the 400 crores are for the new helicopter complex, while the 400 acres is for the production of a new fighter, which however is not limited to Rafale of course, but any MMRCA.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Some interesting tweets by Saurav Jha
> 
> *Saurav Jha* ‏@SJha1618  3h3 hours agoNew Delhi, Delhi
> As I see it, this whole *Rafale* thing is contingent on our negotiations with the Russkis on the PMFI/FGFA/PAK-FA.
> 
> 
> 
> *Saurav Jha* ‏@SJha1618  3h3 hours agoNew Delhi, Delhi
> *BTW HAL has already invested 400 crores for the Rafale license build program. So they obviously expect this deal to happen.
> *
> If what Saurav Jha claims is true and HAL had really invested 400 Crs then Rafale is coming for sure or else Rs 400 crs down the drain means severe rap from CAG or other government audit bodies. So the question is when the contract will be signed i guess..
> 
> for instance where they had invested then this is what i found
> “HAL as a lead production agency will do its role.” It has already taken 400 acres of land for the programme and would await directions of the government - Suvarna Raju
> 
> Excerpts from News Releases - SP's Show News


Why would the CAG have an issue with this? The deal will happen and if HAL haven't got their act together with respect to creating the requisite infrastructure then they would get raked over the coals would they not? 

It's good they are taking such proactive steps- this NEEDS to happen for the sake of the IAF's SQD strength.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Lutyens' Leopard* ‏@Leopard212  25m25 minutes ago

Marine Rafale of Charles De Gaulle taking off from CVN 70 USS Carl Vinson during carrier qualification!


*Stéphane Fort*‏@Stephane_Fort
Le Président de la République François Hollande a pris place à bord d'un Rafale lors de sa visite à Mérignac
meaning
The President of the Republic François Hollande boarded a Rafale during his visit in Merignac





François Hollande in the famous fighter plane





_


_
another report google translated
*François Hollande in Merignac "The Rafale is an exceptional aircraft"*
" This is an exceptional aircraft , has he said. It has all the ingredients for success on the international stage. Hence our pride. But he can not be a success if there is no participation. It is the collective success and for a country that is a good example to set. " 

No way to say more so in these new potential buyers: "What matters is to have a time of quiet negotiations , because if we made announcements saying that we will have a contract and that it does not come, it created a huge disappointment. And there have been many. "

Last time he came in Gironde, it was March 16, 2013, for the inauguration of the bridge Chaban-Delmas in Bordeaux. Two years later, almost to the day, if François Hollande has not cut ribbon Wednesday afternoon in the Dassault factory Merignac, this movement had a different economic significance. And policy.

Arrived at 14 pm, with Jean-Yves Le Drian, the defense minister, Francois Hollande, who was also accompanied by Serge Dassault and Olivier and Eric Trapier, CEO of the group, did not hide his pleasure. Hosted on leaving the presidential plane by passing a low-level burst above the factory, he then visited at no charge, the assembly line of the unit. A formality he concluded, as it should be: taking place in the cockpit of a Rafale.

*Visit to the charge*




Francois Hollande on Wednesday when he arrived in Merignac, Gironde _Photo © Quentin Salinier_

Especially, Francois Hollande, in this temple of made in France, hope that this Egyptian contract will snowball. And that will lead to future sales overseas. If everyone thinks course to India, where negotiations are underway, the head of state did not want to say more: "India existed before the Egyptian contract, so we must continue discussions with the India, they will be long, as we know. Andyou must go to other countries that have proven interest in the Rafale after the Egyptian contract. We must leave no stone unturned. If the state believes French, then other friendly countries can believe us. "




François Hollande Dassault Merignac. _Photo © Quentin Salinier_

A contract of 3.5 billion euros even more important that it is, as we know, the first export sales of this aircraft whose program was launched in 1988. For more 20 years hence, France, as the industry had failed to persuade foreign powers to build on this unit. So difficult, in these conditions, to the Elysée tenant not to support a bit more about the importance of this signature.

Indeed, if the head of state was keen to visit the final assembly site for the Rafale, located in the Bordeaux suburbs, it is above all to celebrate the sale, Egypt, 24 copies of this jewel the French combat aircraft.



" There, now, he says, many signs that the French economy recovers. The sale of the Rafale is one more. "

Prudence therefore, but in Merignac, François Hollande has not failed to include this success Rafale in a more global perspective. " There, now, he says, many signs that the French economy recovers. The sale of the Rafale is one more . There are many signs which suggest thatconsumption has support demand and we need more of this consumption is to investment so that there is more activity, more growth and more jobs. " 

*"The French economy recovers"*
"If the state believes French, then other friendly countries can believe us."

François Hollande à Mérignac : "Le Rafale est un avion exceptionnel" - Nouvelles Aujourdhui

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## MokshaVimukthi

I love the French HUD


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## SpArK




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## PARIKRAMA

_A Rafale B 1/91 on arrival at the base Natal (Brazil) after a transatlantic flight.







A Rafale fighter squadron 1/91 " Gascogne" the color of the SAL 28 BA 113 St- Dizier, with the model of ASMP -A nuclear missile in flight during a refueling Boeing C135FR .
The aircraft was photographed at the time of the break , which explains the position of ducks , these small moving surfaces on the front wings. These are controlled via the computer , everything is transparent .






On the ground, the cockpit and its plastic and composite materials.







Viewing angle than presenting little on this page, that of the place of the browser operator of weapon systems (NOSA).





Cockpit view of a rafale carrying a full load of bombs guided AASM modular and Damocles targeting pod.






The geometry of a password is complex and depends on the movement of the target and the shooter, it varies depending on the angle of presentation or insertion maneuver, it changes depending on the wind or movement of the "biroutier", the aircraft towing the target. Today, the drive ended abruptly when the target was destroyed by a full frame shot, a feat repeated several times during the campaign. In the clash with the deadly shells, acoustic material was destroyed, turning the tool was a useless metal that Alphajets of 2/2 will drop later in a corner of the base of Solenzara.



_

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## PARIKRAMA

_A Rafale B in the colors of 1/91 refuels a basket of pod of a KC- 135 of the US Air Force during exercise Thunder Lightning._





_Over a desert region of Africa during the Serval operation, a 1/91 plane refuels from a C- 135FR of Britain.
The Serval mission lasted several hours and required several pit stops in flight, sometimes in difficult conditions due to intertropical front very active and turbulent._







_In the basket, less than 10 meters from the mothership. On a clear day and time, exercise can even be easy for an experienced pilot. But as soon as the weather deteriorates, the aircraft is heavy, as night falls, the thing becomes much more tense. And in this situation, the browser is just there for the ride, it completely depends on the driver and can, in extreme cases, try to calm him and reassure him._







_The hard part is done. Now that the pilot is in the basket, the exercise is similar to a flight in close formation, with well-established benchmarks, such as printed loop pipe to keep some maneuvering flexibility. In this position, when the parameters are fixed, it can remain in the basket the necessary time, at a rate of one ton per minute_






All pics from Gascogne Fb page
Escadron de chasse 01.091 "Gascogne" - Photos | Facebook

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## Bhuvan93

_"The Indian Air Force is extremely pleased with the technical definitions. We have finalized our industrial agreements with the largest industrial partner HAL, which must manufactured a large part of aircraft locally. We have a contractual sharing of tasks on which we agreed. Now we have to finalize the contract with the Indian Ministry of Defence." - Eric Frappier_

Can't post a link 

http://www.usinenouvelle
.com/editorial/rafale-le-patron-de-dassault-
optimiste-pour-un-deuxieme-contrat-en-2015.N317537

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## PARIKRAMA

@Bhuvan93 : Link and details

*Rafale Dassault boss optimistic for a second contract in 2015*

Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation, the sale of 24 aircraft to Egypt helps stabilize jobs on the Rafale production line. If the new contract, the manufacturer could double its production rates.

On the sidelines of the visit of President of the Republic on March 4 at the assembly plant Rafale Merignac (Gironde), Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation , told some optimism for the signing of a new contract in the course of this year. If he will not talk of an imminent signature, it evokes _"some opportunities to make a second in 2015"_ . 

The recent sales contract for 24 aircraft to Egypt has changed the situation and could speed up negotiations with India , Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Malaysia. _"A number of countries that are very interested. They were already very interested in the mere fact that the Rafale is operational on a number of theaters of operation. At this operational success now adds a commercial success "_ , says Eric Trappier.


FINALIZE THE CONTRACT

The leader returned to the Indian contract. Negotiations for the sale of 126 Rafale last for more than three years.

_"The Indian Air Force is extremely pleased with the technical definitions. We finalized our industrial agreements with the largest industrial partner HAL has manufactured many of the aircraft locally_ensures the leader. _We have a contractual sharing of tasks on which we agreed. Now we have to finalize the contract with the Indian Ministry of Defence. "_

DOUBLE THE RATE OF PRODUCTION? 

The CEO also reports on industrial load Merignac site where 1200 people are employed in the production of Falcon business jets and Rafale. About 80 engineers, technicians and companions are mobilized directly on the combat aircraft assembly line. The plant has yet to produce fifty aircraft for the French army, which 24 Egyptian aircraft additive.

_"This type of export contract has an immediate impact on the stabilization of employment. Due to some substitution of deliveries between the two countries, c ela provides a stream workload remains the same but lasts longer " ,_ says the manager. If signed a second contract for export, the manufacturer could double its production rate exiting two per month.

Rafale : Le patron de Dassault optimiste pour un deuxième contrat en 2015 - Défense

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## PARIKRAMA

*HAL, Dassault to be ‘Joint Prime Contractors’ in Rafale MMRCA Deal: Eric Trappier
*
*Dassault Aviation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will be ‘joint prime contractors’ to manufacture 108 Rafale fighters in India clearing the way as to who will assume responsibility for timely delivery and quality of the aircraft.*

Negotiations between Indian MoD and Dassault have been deadlocked over the past three years over various issues, many of which have been cleared but assuming responsibility for the aircraft made in India was considered the major stumbling block.

*The decision on naming both companies’ as ‘joint prime contractors’ was described by Dassault chief executive Eric Trappier as a ‘new development’ implying that it may have been arrived at during the last few days or weeks.*

If this is correct, then the last big hurdle to clear the US$20billion deal is on its way to be ironed out. Dassault as well as the Indian MoD are keen to decide on the deal before the visit of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi to France in April where contract is likely to be signed.

Trappier, who had accompanied French President François Hollande on a visit to Dassault’s factory in Bordeaux today was quoted as saying in French media reports that he expects a second Rafale contract this year in addition to the one signed with Egypt.

“India existed before the Egyptian contract, so we must continue talks with India, and we know they will be long. We must also talk to other countries that have shown interest in the Rafale since the Egyptian contract, and we must neglect no lead,” Hollande said in a speech to Dassault employees as quoted in the French media.


HAL, Dassault to be ‘Joint Prime Contractors’ in Rafale MMRCA Deal: Eric Trappier

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## Ind4Ever

sancho said:


> Different times, different situation. Back then we were in no position to demand any liabilities and we had to pay for any mistakes of the vendors on our own. Things have changed and the Hawk, Scorpene or even the naval gun deals shows, that today we demand more in return for the money we spend and that vendors are ready to comply.


Exactly times have changed . These issues on taking guarantee has been solved .as of now Rafale can have counter guarantee from HAL and they are allowed to inspect the products .so I feel more like the deal is gone thru and waiting for Modi to comform it when he visits France. WHAT MORE DRAMATIC IT CAN GET WHEN THIS HAPPENS ? More diplomatic ties and help in technologies from France . I gueas


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## Hulk

sancho said:


> Won't change anything, just as his last visits didn't, because it's not a polictial issue, but an industrial with Dassault. So only negotiations with Dassault officials can change that, either they move or we do, but so far both sides seems to stick to their positions and I don't see how the DM or the NDA government can bow down anymore and agree to Dassaults demands.
> 
> Btw, in the recent scam about the documents of various ministries that were provided to privat industy companies, there were also arrests of officials of Reliance Industries. Do you think that could have an effect on the RIL / Dassault JV?
> I couldn't follow the news completely, but I somewhere read that defence related documents were forwarded too, sounds pretty bad.
> 
> 
> 
> Missed your post earlier today, but very interesting stuff, especially about Verma, who said in December:
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't look good anymore.
> 
> 
> Some more pics of the EF from IDEX 2015:
> View attachment 195823
> 
> 
> View attachment 195824
> 
> 
> View attachment 195825
> 
> 
> View attachment 195826
> 
> 
> View attachment 195827


Looks very loaded.


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## Abingdonboy

*CEO Trappier :*

_[...] *"The Indian Air Force is extremely pleased with the technical definitions. We have finalized our industrial agreements with the big industrial partner HAL which will manufacture many of the aircraft locally. We have a contractual sharing of tasks on which we agreed. Now we have to finalize the contract with the Indian Ministry of Defence. "*_

_ *To double the production rate ?*
The CEO also reviewed the industrial load on the Merignac site where 1,200 people work on the production of Falcon business jets and Rafale. About 80 engineers, technicians and companions are mobilized directly on the combat aircraft assembly line. The plant has yet to produce fifty aircraft for the French army [1] and 24 Egyptian aircraft.
"This type of export contract has an immediate impact on the stabilization of employment. Due to some substitution of deliveries between the two countries, it gives a flow workload which remains the same but lasts longer, "said the CEO. *If a second contract for export is signed , the manufacturer could double its production rate , assembling 2 aircraft per month.*

From:
http://www.usinenouvelle.com/editori...n-2015.N317537_

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## SpArK

*Terminate the Rafale Deal*

By Bharat karnad 

Published: 06th March 2015 06:00 AM

Last Updated: 05th March 2015 10:31 PM


Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha has repeatedly and publicly declared “there’s no Plan B”, that in effect it is Rafale or nothing with respect to the Indian Air Force’s dubious Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement. It merits his dismissal from service, because these words denote gross incompetence, failure to anticipate the unexpected and prepare for it—axiomatic in all military planning and, hence, of leadership. *For every plan there is always an alternative plan of action in case things don’t work out as envisaged.*

The absence of a fallback scheme is, of course, a ruse by Raha to pressurise the government* into acceding to IAF’s wishes for the Rafale, despite defence minister Manohar Parrikar spelling out an alternative—the cost-effective, Nasik-produced Su-30MKI, which won’t require multi-billion dollar investment in another production facility and beats the French combat aircraft by any performance standard.*

The prohibitive cost and questionable fighting qualities of the Rafale apart, the unwillingness of the French consortium headed by Dassault to guarantee the aircraft licence manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), and to fully meet transfer of technology (TOT) obligations involving Indian public and private sector entities directly or by way of offsets, too, are factors of serious concern. 

*Source codes, flight control laws, and “black box” technologies, including all aspects of the engine, advanced sensors and avionics are likely to be left out of any TOT agreement or worse, paid for but not delivered, if previous defence deals are any guide*. 

*Dassault plans on supplying critical components and technologies for the entire production run of the “Indian-made” Rafale to ensure massive recurring profits, whence its insistence that its novice Indian partner, Reliance Aerospace, be part of the local production cycle. One other aspect is equally worrying. HAL assembling Rafale may face the kind of troubles Mazgaon Dockyard Ltd. is experiencing with the French Scorpene submarine where French vendors are delaying the supply of material and hence delaying induction and raising the direct and indirect costs.*

The Price Negotiation Committees (PNCs) instituted by the defence ministry to hammer out contracts with foreign firms are to blame for such flawed transactions. Voluminous contracts are drawn up—the Rafale document reportedly exceeds 1,500 pages—but the use of indistinct language deliberately leaves large enough loopholes for even middling technologies, what to speak of the more sensitive “know why” knowledge, to be legitimately denied even as the suppliers pocket the monies the defence ministry is quick to disburse in full at the start. The PNCs need investigating, particularly for the vast leakage of the national wealth through this route.

A recent visit to HAL facilities by Dassault officials is a pointer to things to come. *They complained to the US-based Defense News about the low productivity of HAL workforce and lack of economies of scale to argue that Indian-built Rafales will be costlier. Besides indicating that defence PSUs are not proficient in even the low-end screwdriver technology, the French hinted at further escalation of realistic cost beyond the presently estimated $30-$35 billion!*

Flawed contracts drafted by PNCs that do not insist on penalties for time and cost overruns, and on staggered payments to fit delivery schedules, moreover, substantiate the fear repeatedly voiced by this analyst, of manipulation of assembly kits and spares supply, for foreign/economic policy reasons by France to ground the IAF squadrons at any time, is real. Such apprehensions are sought to be doused by Paris claiming that owing to TOT India will achieve “industrial autonomy”. But considering the guaranteed high level of French content in the supposedly “indigenous” Rafales, this is a laughable claim.

There are operational reasons as well why Rafale will be a liability. The* IAF has always been wary of buying foreign aircraft accessible to its Pakistani counterpart. This was a reason for the rejection of F-16s as MMRCA given that they outfit the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) strike squadrons. Now consider this: Dassault is cock-a-hoop about the likely purchase by Qatar of some 66 Rafales. The Qatari Air Force (QAF) has traditionally been run by PAF pilots, with the understanding that these squadrons will switch to PAF use in any conflict with India. So, IAF Rafales will go up against Pakistani-flown Qatari Rafales that potentially will be better equipped and periodically upgraded with more sophisticated sensors, avionics, and weapons that Saudi Arabia will happily finance, as it did the $500 million deal for PAF’s F-16s and Pakistan’s acquisition of nuclear weapons and missile technologies from China. The Gulf regimes, after all, consider the Pakistan military their palace guard.*

And, Rafales cannot be effectively used against China either. Why? Because, firstly, it will not survive sophisticated Chinese air defence; secondly, *Dassault won’t allow the indigenous Brahmos supersonic cruise missile to take out targets inside China from standoff range to be integrated with it; and thirdly, because the Rafale is a compromised system for another reason. Pakistan is the prime conduit for Western military, especially aerospace, technologies to China. A Qatari Rafale will be disassembled in Pakistan for Chinese engineers to scrutinise, or wing its way to a Chengdu Aircraft Industry Groupsite for its best features and technologies to be reverse-engineered and incorporated in Chinese combat aircraft, and otherwise permit the Chinese military to familiarise itself with its technical weaknesses and configure appropriate counter-measures and counter-tactics.*

Every demerit attends on the Rafale aircraft deal, including its outrageous cost and negligible effects in growing a self-sufficient Indian defence industry. It should be terminated also because of the country’s meagre resources—the capital defence budget of `94,588 crore for 2015-16 remains unchanged from last year, and careful inter se choices will have to be made from among myriad military procurement programmes. In the competition for the defence rupee, the Rafale is eminently expendable. It is time Parrikar told IAF, using the words of former US defence secretary Robert Gates, that “there’s no endless money”. If a Rafale deal is still signed to crown Narendra Modi’s April 10 visit to France, the government will have much to answer for.


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## halloweene

Usual Bharat Karnad... It has been a long time since there aren't anymore pakistanese pilots in Middle East. All the rest is pure speculation, not a single fact.

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## PARIKRAMA

SpArK said:


> Besides indicating that defence PSUs are not proficient in even the low-end screwdriver technology, the French hinted at further escalation of realistic cost beyond the presently estimated $30-$35 billion!





SpArK said:


> *Source codes, flight control laws, and “black box” technologies, including all aspects of the engine, advanced sensors and avionics are likely to be left out of any TOT agreement or worse, paid for but not delivered, if previous defence deals are any guide*.





SpArK said:


> The Qatari Air Force (QAF) has traditionally been run by PAF pilots, with the understanding that these squadrons will switch to PAF use in any conflict with India. So, IAF Rafales will go up against Pakistani-flown Qatari Rafales that potentially will be better equipped and periodically upgraded with more sophisticated sensors, avionics, and weapons that Saudi Arabia will happily finance, as it did the $500 million deal for PAF’s F-16s and Pakistan’s acquisition of nuclear weapons and missile technologies from China. The Gulf regimes, after all, consider the Pakistan military their palace guard.





SpArK said:


> And, Rafales cannot be effectively used against China either. Why? Because, firstly, it will not survive sophisticated Chinese air defence; secondly, *Dassault won’t allow the indigenous Brahmos supersonic cruise missile to take out targets inside China from standoff range to be integrated with it; and thirdly, because the Rafale is a compromised system for another reason. Pakistan is the prime conduit for Western military, especially aerospace, technologies to China. A Qatari Rafale will be disassembled in Pakistan for Chinese engineers to scrutinise, or wing its way to a Chengdu Aircraft Industry Groupsite for its best features and technologies to be reverse-engineered and incorporated in Chinese combat aircraft, and otherwise permit the Chinese military to familiarise itself with its technical weaknesses and configure appropriate counter-measures and counter-tactics.*



30-35 Billion ---- Lol our def budget is 40B.. I guess he means to say rafale occupies 80-90% of def budget if we consider cost... unless he is quoting life cycle cost in which case he should also say 50% of that cost is via offset and the cost is over 40 years.. In such a scenario the deal cost is 15-17 Bn then and offsets is also 15-17 Bn. Now that offset size and probable impact on our defence industry could be a very significant aspect. To me this sizable industry conglomerate can readily contribute into AMCA and FGFA project as and when this industry matures there by increasing the indigenisation aspect and lowering the cost prospect

TOT for god sake why we all are speculating.. let the fine print come out.. if for pilatus gov gets a rap for a improper decision do u think MMRCA would escape scrutiny. I am sure auditors would be licking lips to the prospect of finding something which gives the media glorification for next 5 years and 5 star treatment to Honorable bureaucrats closing to superannuation. So lets wait before writing so much. If RFP had specified and still all are brushed under the carpet then even GOD cant help this country.. so patience is the key for the moment

Qatari giving birds to PAF . Its stupid atm again to say middle east dominated by Pak pilots which is not presently the case and PAF having supplementary squadrons via Qatar or shadow squads with help of Saudi. Its a height of propaganda based information manipulation.

Chinese AD/ Brahmos Integration both are thoughtless. Chinese AD if its sophisticated then even MKI wont survive. lol.. Without air superiority you dont send across your swing based jets or A2G deep strikes from the border region. i think if Mr Karnad feels MKI would be able to do the impossible of evading all Chinese AD and deliver "Brahmos" and Rafale cannot then may be he feels MKI is 6-7Generation bird. Brahmos Mini is not even tested as of now so how he can think of integration? its counting too much ahead.

China reverse engineering Rafale and using the tech on its home grown birds is a bit of exaggeration. Dassault is not a company of fools.. They are hard businessmen who know for sure sucha reverse engineering would lead to what result. Moreover China can reverse engineer any system it lays a hand on.. so no system India can buy is not within Chinese reverse engineering capability. On the contrary since we have maximum russian systems and China had done maximum reverse engineering of it, we are in more danger then to compare with rafale issue only. Who can guarantee that China had not got details of Su 30 MKK or MKI from Russia and reversed the best results into their own developed jets. So this point is just playing on fears.. One must commend china .. at least inspite of IPR they still go ahead discreetly and do the things necessary for their Defence. Here out of fear, we wont buy the systems only...


Well in the end a strong article which makes a common man think Rafale is ultimate useless weapon, a white elephant. Sorry but thats not the case. Whether India buys rafale or not is different. But none of the points pointed by Mr Karnad is correct. Its a mad fear in his mind which makes him say and write all this jingoism and no substance.

For Mr Karnad, i present the next write up for his article
France & Pakistan to revive JF-17 Avionics/EW/Missiles deal as Indian MMRCA stalls.

the "fact"  that we have Pak Military industrial complex quoting such deal of france giving advanced systems means Dassault are leaking rafale by parts to PAF upfront and not by reverse engineering.. That i think should be the basis of his next article.  

BTW i dont care if India gets rafale or not.. if yes then awesome.. if no its cool.. but tarnishing a bird like this is always unacceptable. but democracy lets us have freedom of speech. So i should also respect views especially a contrarian view.. in that regard, this article is good. at least it covers the points of fear and introspect into every detail again..

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## SpArK

I wish to have both the above, if not rafyy then hornets.

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## PARIKRAMA

^^^ Jai and veeru together (MKI and rafale)

Hornets i do wish can fill the stop gap arrangement till 2030 if raffy fails to finalise.. May be as talks of line close down in 2017-18 are there, we can negotiate for whole line perhaps? BTW following is an excerpt from latest development 

_The F/A-18 Super Hornet infrared search and track (IRST) system, developed and integrated by Boeing [NYSE: BA] and Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT], received approval from the U.S. Navy to enter low-rate initial production. 

The IRST system consists of Lockheed Martin’s IRST21™ sensor, the GE Aviation FPU-13 Fuel Tank Assembly and the Meggitt Defense Industry Environmental Control unit. The system demonstrated its production readiness through a series of extensive assessments and reviews, including flight tests. 

“This ‘see first, strike first’ capability can be used in a variety of threat environments and is a game changer for our warfighters as we combat future adversaries,” said U.S. Navy F/A-18 program manager Capt. Frank Morley. IRST is expected to deploy on the F/A-18 Super Hornet in 2017.

IRST21 is the next generation of Lockheed Martin’s legacy IRST sensor system, which accumulated more than 300,000 flight hours on the U.S. Navy’s F-14 and international F-15 platforms. The long-range IRST21 sensor uses infrared search and track technology to detect, track and enable the Super Hornet to engage threats with air-to-air weapons.

In addition to detecting airborne threats, IRST significantly enhances multiple target resolution compared to radar, providing greater discrimination of threat formations at longer ranges. Data from the IRST21 sensor is fused with other on-board F/A-18 sensor data to provide maximum situational awareness to the warfighter.

*IRST21 Sensor System*




U.S. Navy Approves F/A-18 Super Hornet IRST System for Production · Lockheed Martin_

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## SpArK

*French Navy Rafale M Fighter Conducts Qualifications with USS Carl Vinson in the Gulf*

In what seems to be becoming a tradition between the two allied navies, a French Navy (Marine Nationale) Rafale M fighter crossed deck with US Navy nuclear-powever aircraft carrier (CVN) _USS Carl Vinson. _The US aircraft carrier and the French Navy CVN Charles de Gaulle are currently deployed in the Persian Gulf to conduct strike operations in Iraq.




*ARABIAN GULF (March 3, 2015) A French navy Rafale Marine aircraft from Squadron 11F embarked aboard the French navy nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle (R91) launches from U.S. Navy nuclear powered aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson (CVN 70). Carl Vinson is deployed as part of the Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group supporting maritime security operations, strike operations in Iraq and Syria as directed, and theater security cooperation efforts in the U.S. 5th Fleet area of responsibility. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class John Philip Wagner, Jr./Released) *

The goal of this "cross deck" was to qualify the Dassault Aviation Rafale M fighter with _USS Carl Vinson. _The French navy CSG started air operations above Iraq last week. 

The Rafale M is fully compatible with US Navy aircraft carriers and some French Navy pilots have already qualified to fly the aircraft from US Navy flight decks. This marks the fourth time French navy Rafale M operates with a US Navy CVN:
- On 4 June 2010, during an exercise on _USS Harry S. Truman_, a French Rafale became the first jet fighter of a foreign navy to have its engine replaced on board an American aircraft carrier. 
- In 2008 six Rafales from Flottille 12F integrated into the _USS Theodore Roosevelt_ Carrier Air Wing interoperability exercise. 
- In july 2007 two Rafale M conducted touch and go, traps, and catapult launch maneuvers with _USS Enterprise_ off the French Riviera.


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## nik22

Wow, Rafale had maiden flight in 1986. That is nearly 30 years.



nik22 said:


> Wow, Rafale had maiden flight in 1986. That is nearly 30 years.


May be off topic. Our tejas seem to be doing not too bad. Tejas is like a 14 year old compare to 21 year Eurofighter, 30 Rafale.


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## sancho

Ind4Ever said:


> Exactly times have changed . These issues on taking guarantee has been solved .as of now Rafale can have counter guarantee from HAL and they are allowed to inspect the products .so I feel more like the deal is gone thru and waiting for Modi to comform it when he visits France. WHAT MORE DRAMATIC IT CAN GET WHEN THIS HAPPENS ? More diplomatic ties and help in technologies from France . I gueas



The news about being joint prime contractors gives some hope, since it hints on Dassault finally moving and taking at least some responsibility, which they avoided for the last 3 years. Lets hope things will see an end now, they deal is still reasonably good.



indianrabbit said:


> Looks very loaded.



Oh yes, in fact with 4 x Paveway IV LGB's + 6 x Brimstone missiles and the Litening, it doubles the CAS load of the Tornados, which is more than impressive! By 2019 when the RAF replaces their Tornados, the EF will be more than a worthy replacement. And the recent pics of test flights with new aerodynamic modifications, shows that the preperation for CFTs are going on as well. They too more than a decade to actually push the capability of the EF, but now it really gets to be credible multi role fighter.



Abingdonboy said:


> _*If a second contract for export is signed , the manufacturer could double its production rate , assembling 2 aircraft per month.*_



That only tells us about the capacity they aim on, not the time frame of ramping up and delivering the fighters. They won't be able to start producing 2 per months from tomorrow onwards of course, especially since the industry that provides all the subsystems would need to ramp up production too.



PARIKRAMA said:


> ^^^ Jai and veeru together (MKI and rafale)
> 
> Hornets i do wish can fill the stop gap arrangement



IAF won't add any more type of fighters other than LCA, MMRCA, MKI, FGFA and if necessary AMCA. Several air chiefs stated that there won't be a split and that IAF wants to reduce the burden of operating too many types of fighters. So F18SH's / US fighters in general are out of question for IAF.


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## sancho

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/573753855483121664

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## PARIKRAMA

Safran Engineering Services, a French multinational aerospace-component and defence company, plans to go in for a major expansion of its Indian operations if the Dassault Rafale deal to supply 126 aircraft to the Indian Air Force goes through, according to Arun Nayar, Director of the company.

The firm had already identified land to facilitate its expansion.

The global aerospace industry, he said, was moving towards quieter, greener and fuel-efficient engines.

Safran had tied up with Honeywell to develop EGTS, an electric system that would help aircraft taxi to runways without using its jet engines.

French aerospace firm plans expansion in India - The Hindu





_




Safran Honeywell EGTS System - An innovative fuel saving system with a positive environmental impact. Significantly improving operational efficiency by reducing fuel consumption and other taxi related costs


_


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## Abingdonboy

_Safran Engineering Services, a French multinational aerospace-component and defence company, plans to go in for a major expansion of its Indian operations if the Dassault Rafale deal to supply 126 aircraft to the Indian Air Force goes through, according to Arun Nayar, Director of the company.
Speaking at the inaugural function of Anokha 2015, a three-day annual National-level student technical festival organised by the Amrita University in Coimbatore from Thursday, he said that the aerospace and defence industry in India would also receive a major boost if the contract materialised.

The firm had already identified land to facilitate its expansion. The global aerospace industry, he said, was moving towards quieter, greener and fuel-efficient engines.
Safran had tied up with Honeywell to develop EGTS, an electric system that would help aircraft taxi to runways without using its jet engines._

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/...cle6964903.ece


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## Tshering22

Gentlemen, I think we can officially put this forum to a rest after the latest news that Rafale is coming to IAF. 

From the days of my studies to now when I am a dad..

What all can happen in a defence deal!


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## MokshaVimukthi

Tshering22 said:


> Gentlemen, I think we can officially put this forum to a rest after the latest news that Rafale is coming to IAF.
> 
> From the days of my studies to now when I am a dad..
> 
> What all can happen in a defence deal!



You are a dad ?  Congratulations ....... boy or girl ?

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## Tshering22

MokshaVimukthi said:


> You are a dad ?  Congratulations ....... boy or girl ?



Became one 7 few months ago.

Both actually. 

Twins. 

But let's take the conversation to personal messages. 

Don't want to derail the thread.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Some new news on budget constrains and rafale*

*Indian Budget Casts Doubt on Rafale Deal*
NEW DELHI — India may not have the funds to seal the deal with Dassault Aviation to purchase $12 billion Rafale fighter planes, according to an Air Force source.

While India plans to boost hike defense spending by almost 8 percent, defense analysts and military officers say it falls short of expectations and isn't enough to buy fresh weaponry.

India will spend US $40.4 billion on defense in the April 1 2015-March 31 2016 financial year, according to the Feb. 28 proposal to Parliament.

That's an increase of 7.74 percent over the previous year. The previous year's budget went up 12.4 percent.

Finance Minister Arun Jaitley gave no additional funds in the "Capital Account Head" of the budget proposals, which is earmarked to buy fresh weapons. The budget included the same amount as last year: $15.5 billion.

"With the stagnation in capital expenditure, I believe there is very little left in the budget to cater to new contracts," said Laxman Behera, research fellow at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses think tank in New Delhi.

Amit Cowshish, retired Defence Ministry finance adviser and defense analyst, said: "It is unlikely that the allocation [under Capital Account] would cater for only committed liabilities."

Said an Air Force officer: "With no fresh money it is unlikely if we can contract the $12 billion Rafale fighter deal with Dassault Aviation of France, nor buy additional aircraft in the next financial year."

The contract is to be paid in installments, with 15 percent due at the signing of the deal.

At best, a $2.5 billion deal finalized two years ago to purchase attack and heavy lift helicopters from Boeing could be inked as the US company has threatened to hike the price if the deal is delayed, the official added.

"The budget allocation may not be sufficient even for contracted projects as they are carry over from the 2014-15 budget on capital account," said Rahul Bhonsle, retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst.

The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) promised during that election to modernize defense and meet weapons requirements, said defense analyst Nitin Mehta. "The first full budget of the new government announced Feb. 28 is a let down on expectations," he said.

"There are serious concerns over government's commitment to fully budget India's defense and security needs despite statements by Prime Minister Narendra Modi on modernization of the armed forces," he said.

Said Mehta: "Sadly, the budget reflects continuation of the policies of the previous government. For structural changes there has to be greater synergy between the Ministry of Defence and Finance."

Behera said security needs to have support from both the government and lawmakers.

"However, such security needs are to be satisfied within the overall resource availability," he said. "The defense budget 2015-16 has been subject to resource crunch arising out of slowdown in revenue mobilization and greater devolution of resources to the state government."

However, Cowshish said defense still constitutes around 13.88 percent of India's total budget and as such is a major chunk of allocation.

"Defense budget is the second largest single item of expenditure in the non-plan segment of the union budget. One has to keep these facts in view while forming an opinion on whether the allocation is in sync with the promise or not," Cowshish said.

With such a tight defense budget, it remains to be seen which of the ongoing programs will be inked. Nearly $20 billion worth weapons purchase projects are in the mix, including:

• $12 billion to purchase medium multirole fighter jets
• $1.2 billion for six Airbus A330 tankers
• $1.1 billion for 22 Boeing Apache attack helicopters
• $1 billion for 197 light utility helicopters,
• $833 million for 15 Boeing Chinook heavy lift helicopters,
• $600 million for light howitzer guns from BAE Systems
• $200 million for 98 Black Shark torpedoes from WASS
• $350 million for 1,418 Israeli-made thermal imaging sights for T-72 tanks
• $250 million for 262 Barak missiles from Israel Aerospace Industries

Indian Budget Casts Doubt on Rafale Deal

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## CONNAN

*French President François Hollande speaks to officials and employees of Dassault Aviation during his March 4 visit at Bordeaux-Mérignac*





*France Expects One, Maybe Two, Rafale Sales This Year*
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...this-year.html

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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Some new news on budget constrains and rafale*
> 
> *Indian Budget Casts Doubt on Rafale Deal*
> NEW DELHI — India may not have the funds to seal the deal with Dassault Aviation to purchase $12 billion Rafale fighter planes, according to an Air Force source.



If the deal would only be worth $12 billion, it might not be the issue at all, since the first paymeant would only be around $1.8 billion of the $5 billion procurement budget of the IAF. Realistically however it's between $15 and 20 billion, therefor between $2.25 and $3 billions and that would take a good bunch of the budget.


P.S.

Rs 31,481 crores (afaik $5.16 billion US Dollar) reported procurement budget for IAF

Rafale deal costs between $15 and 20 billion => 15% means $2.25 to $3 billion

Apache helicopter estimated around $1.1 billion => 15% means $165 million

Chinook helicopter estimated around $830 million => 15% means $124.5 million

A330 tanker estimated around $1.2 billion => 15% means $180 million

Avro replacement estimated around $2 billion => 15% means $300 million

Optional Pilatus trainer estimated around $245 million => 15% means $36 million

HAL HTT40 trainer estimated around $429 million => 15% means $64.3 million

=> ~ $3.2 to $3.9 billion

Not sure if the additional C130J order and the Do 228 order will still be accounted on the budget of 2014/15, since the FY is not over yet. Also not included the LUH deal, which most likely won't happen before 2016 anymore, additional AWACS orders, IJT(?), additional C17s or similar heavy lifters...

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## Agent_47

sancho said:


> If the deal would only be worth $12 billion, it might not be the issue at all, since the first paymeant would only be around $1.8 billion of the $5 billion procurement budget of the IAF. Realistically however it's between $15 and 20 billion, therefor between $2.25 and $3 billions and that would take a good bunch of the budget.
> 
> 
> P.S.
> 
> Rs 31,481 crores (afaik $5.16 billion US Dollar) reported procurement budget for IAF
> 
> Rafale deal costs between $15 and 20 billion => 15% means $2.25 to $3 billion
> 
> Apache helicopter estimated around $1.1 billion => 15% means $165 million
> 
> Chinook helicopter estimated around $830 million => 15% means $124.5 million
> 
> A330 tanker estimated around $1.2 billion => 15% means $180 million
> 
> Avro replacement estimated around $2 billion => 15% means $300 million
> 
> Optional Pilatus trainer estimated around $245 million => 15% means $36 million
> 
> HAL HTT40 trainer estimated around $429 million => 15% means $64.3 million
> 
> => ~ $3.2 to $3.9 billion
> 
> Not sure if the additional C130J order and the Do 228 order will still be accounted on the budget of 2014/15, since the FY is not over yet. Also not included the LUH deal, which most likely won't happen before 2016 anymore, additional AWACS orders, IJT(?), additional C17s or similar heavy lifters...


There is one problem with your assumptions, You didn't considered orders already signed.Their yearly payment will be more than 50 % of CAPX for sure.
If any two deals in Apache/Chinook/A330 is signed, there is no place for Rafale !


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> If the deal would only be worth $12 billion, it might not be the issue at all, since the first paymeant would only be around $1.8 billion of the $5 billion procurement budget of the IAF. Realistically however it's between $15 and 20 billion, therefor between $2.25 and $3 billions and that would take a good bunch of the budget.
> 
> 
> P.S.
> 
> Rs 31,481 crores (afaik $5.16 billion US Dollar) reported procurement budget for IAF
> 
> Rafale deal costs between $15 and 20 billion => 15% means $2.25 to $3 billion
> 
> Apache helicopter estimated around $1.1 billion => 15% means $165 million
> 
> Chinook helicopter estimated around $830 million => 15% means $124.5 million
> 
> A330 tanker estimated around $1.2 billion => 15% means $180 million
> 
> Avro replacement estimated around $2 billion => 15% means $300 million
> 
> Optional Pilatus trainer estimated around $245 million => 15% means $36 million
> 
> HAL HTT40 trainer estimated around $429 million => 15% means $64.3 million
> 
> => ~ $3.2 to $3.9 billion
> 
> Not sure if the additional C130J order and the Do 228 order will still be accounted on the budget of 2014/15, since the FY is not over yet. Also not included the LUH deal, which most likely won't happen before 2016 anymore, additional AWACS orders, IJT(?), additional C17s or similar heavy lifters...





Agent_47 said:


> There is one problem with your assumptions, You didn't considered orders already signed.Their yearly payment will be more than 50 % of CAPX for sure.
> If any two deals in Apache/Chinook/A330 is signed, there is no place for Rafale !



_*However, the defence ministry had told the parliamentary standing committee in late 2014 that when the MMRCA is contracted, additional funds would be made available*. _


http://www.financialexpress.com/arti...ked-for/49270/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*French President François Hollande speaks to officials and employees of Dassault Aviation during his March 4 visit at Bordeaux-Mérignac*






*France Expects One, Maybe Two, Rafale Sales This Year*
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...this-year.html

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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> There is one problem with your assumptions, You didn't considered orders already signed.Their yearly payment will be more than 50 % of CAPX for sure.
> If any two deals in Apache/Chinook/A330 is signed, there is no place for Rafale !



I am talking about the budget for new procurements, not for the running costs and older contracts must fall under the latter.



Abingdonboy said:


> _*However, the defence ministry had told the parliamentary standing committee in late 2014 that when the MMRCA is contracted, additional funds would be made available*. _



There is no confirmation about that, allthough the unplanned expenditure budget got a considerable increase, thanks to more loans than initially planned, but nobody knows for what the government has planned this for. So wait and see.


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## PARIKRAMA

Cross posting from a diff forum a paragraph which awakened my interest a lot

*"Funding it from the current budget is not feasible. The MoD's proposal will be forwarded for approval to the MoF which can then sanction supplementary funding under a discretionary heading. If it does get the contract Dassault can still probably defer the first payment tranche to the next fiscal as long as the GoI is committed to the purchase in writing."*

This logic seems very much possible to me and applicable to any deal of sizable proportion especially Rafale..

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## magudi

What about cnc report? Wasn't it supposed to come by feb end?

What about cnc report? Wasn't it supposed to come by feb end?


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## PARIKRAMA

Heights of Stupidity. Pls read and bang your heads.. 



> | Take early decision on MMRCA | The Echo of India
> 
> Take early decision on MMRCA | The Echo of India
> 
> As its fleet strength gets depleted even as India’s, security environment worsens, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is in desperate need of inducting more medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). In fact, the early acquisition of a good number of these aircraft has become an urgent necessity for the IAF. After a long process of flight tests and tests for suitability of the aircraft in India conditions, the French Rafale was selected. But negotiations between Dassault, its manufacturers, and the Indian Government have been dragging on for years. Meanwhile, there has been a heavy cost escalation. The original deal was for 8 billion dollars for the supply of 126 aircraft. It has now gone up to nearly 14 billion dollars. Further delay in clinching the deal will mean more cost escalation.
> 
> The exact reasons for the delay in clinching the deal are not known. Even after the visit of the French Defence Minister’s meeting with his Indian counterpart in Delhi late last month (Le Drian came for the specific purpose of finalizing the deal), doubts and uncertainties remain. *One reason for the delay is said to be the ‘unreliability’ of Dassault as a supplier. The company had entered into an agreement with Russia for the delivery of some aircraft but started delaying its obligations when France came under heavy pressure from the USA and Germany in the wake of the strong Western disapproval of the Russian stand on Ukraine.* The IAF developed strong reservations about the French company after this.
> 
> Now India is reported to be seeking an alternative to Rafale. *One obvious choice is the Russian Sukhoi (Su-37)*,  *which is said to have more maneuverability as an MMRCA, equipped with an upgraded avionic suite and fire-control system and its remarkably good thrust-vectoring nozzles.* This aircraft recently gave demonstration of its performance at Bangalore along with other countries’ aircraft. The point is that whatever the final choice – the French Rafale or the Russian Su-37 – the decision has to be taken quickly and the required number of aircraft inducted into the IAF without any avoidable loss of time. Assuming that a possible war into which India might be forced will be conventional, not nuclear, the role of the air force in neutralizing the enemy will be crucial and supportive of the ground forces. Prime Minister Modi should intervene to ensure that the acquisition of these vital aircraft is not further delayed.



LOL. Indian Reporting standards are falling very badly. ....All they quote is Mistral and voila a new update is ready .

On Top Su 37, an experimental flanker that never entered production and that ceased development in the 20th century is the "obvious choice" of IAF. 

Talk about logic...

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## ejaz007

Could Su-35S Deal Edge Out Rafale in India?

New Delhi Won't Comment on 5th-Gen Fighter Contract with Russia

ABU DHABI — Moscow and New Delhi have agreed to perform design work in India on what Russia claims would be a "fifth generation" version of the Su-35, an agreement that may lead to an Indian variant of the fighter jet, the Russian Military Complex chief said.
The announcement makes India the first country to sign a contract, however preliminary, for the S version of the Su-35.
"We have been negotiating and have signed the intention protocol for the Su-35," Rostec CEO Sergey Chemezov said during the IDEX show in Abu Dhabi last month. "Now we are working on designing ideas for this contract and on creating a manufacturing platform for the aircraft of the fifth generation."
Rostec is Russia's state-run corporation that oversees export of high-tech products.
Chemezov said the jet would be developed to meet the Indian Air Force's requirements. He did not say how many of the jets India might plan to buy.
Russia claims the Su-35S would be a fifth generation fighter, as opposed to the legacy fourth generation Su-35. That implies stealth, but it's unclear whether the jet would be on par with an F-35 joint strike fighter.
In India, however, no source in the Defence Ministry could confirm that any deal had been signed with Russia on the Su-35S. An Air Force official did say that the Russians have made one or two Su-35S presentations in the past six months on how it can help replace India's MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighter aircraft, which are due for retirement in seven or eight years.
Russian industry sources said the fighter will be priced at $85 million. That could make it competitive with Dassault Aviation's Rafale, and could have implications for India's proposed purchase of 126 Rafales. New Delhi selected the Rafale as the preferred bidder in a protracted competition in 2012, but has yet to make a final decision on the purchase.
Indian and French defense ministers discussed the Rafale deal during Jean-Yves Le Drian's recent visit to India, an Indian MoD source said. But Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar did not provide a time commitment to Le Drian on when the deal will be signed.
Parrikar told Le Drian that state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) has been asked to complete cost estimates for the Rafales it will build under license.
The French defense minister's spokesman was not available for comment.
A Dassault Aviation spokesman, asked about the Indian agreement for design work on the Su-35S, said the Indian Air Force chief has said a Sukhoi cannot replace a Rafale.
In India, the Economic Times, reported on Feb. 19 that Indian Air Force chief Arup Raha ruled out a purchase of additional Su-30s as the Russian fighter and the Rafale complemented each other rather than the former replacing the latter.
Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi is due to visit Paris in April, which could be an opportunity for some clarification on the potential Rafale deal, Agence-France Presse has reported.
Russian aircraft makers have been eagerly proclaiming their willingness to step in if India ultimately rejects the French jet. Many believe Russia wants to undercut France as punishment for Paris refusing to deliver two Mistral helicopters carriers to Russia amid deepening tensions with Ukraine.
"If [India] needs additional Su-30MKI fighters, then we are ready to work out such an agreement," Sergei Goreslavsky, deputy director of Russia's arms export agency Rosoboronexport, told the RIA Novosti news agency on Feb. 16. India operates a large fleet of Sukhoi Su-30 fighters, some of which have been locally produced by HAL.
And Russia's RSK MiG says it would offer an upgraded version of its developmental MiG-35 if India reopens the tender.
"We have every chance to compete [for the contract]," MiG chief Sergei Korotkov said at Aero India on Feb. 18, according to the RIA Novosti new agency. "We have not lost hope that a future tender or competition will be announced."
India remains dependent on Russia to supply weaponry and the two countries have been successful in conducting joint development programs involving advanced technologies, including the co-production of the supersonic BrahMos cruise missile.
"Efforts will be made to modernize the Indian defense forces with emphasis on Make-in-India defense programs," an Indian MoD official said. "India remains committed to buy advanced technologies."
India's dependence on Russia for the bulk of its weapons systems, said defense analyst Nitin Mehta.
"India wants to buy advanced systems like the Rafale, even at a higher cost," he said. "[But] dependence on Russians will remain ... and it would be difficult to find the resources to replace these with advanced systems immediately."
Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said the Su-35S would enter Russian service this year as part of the expansion of the Air Force and Naval Aviation branch.
"Currently, we're testing a new Su-35S multifunctional fighter jet. This year, the new aircraft should enter service. This is the main task for this year," Shoigu said in February.
China is also considering a purchase of Su-35s. A February report by Zvezda, a television network run by the Russian military, said that long-running talks might conclude with a deal to buy 24 fighters on May 19.
Chemezov said that the contract, if signed, would provide China with the fourth-generation Su-35, not India's fifth-generation S model.
"This aircraft is called Su-35-4 plus PAK-FA generation and we are negotiating with China and we are in progress and I hope it will be over soon. I wouldn't like to discuss contracts that have still not been signed," he said. "The important point is that this is a very unique aircraft that has not been delivered to any country."
Another potential customer for the Su-35 is Egypt. Last fall, Russian President Vladimir Putin and Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi signed an arms deal reportedly worth $3.5 billion. Egyptian media reported that the package included Su-35s.
But Chemezov said no firm purchase deal had been settled.
"We have not signed anything with Egypt; we signed an intention protocol and we are negotiating it. I hope soon we will sign a contract," he said.
Experts have suggested that Egypt, long a customer of US arms makers, would have trouble integrating Russian hardware.
"This would require a significant investment and both sides have been in negotiations for years without results," said Ruslan Aliev, of Moscow's Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies.
But Chemezov said the two countries have already agreed on training protocols in case the purchase goes through.
"As a matter of fact, the terms and conditions of the contract that have been signed maintain not only the delivery and other terms but also the training," he said. "First the pilot will be trained in Russia and later in Egypt, as an example when we supplied the helicopters to the Pentagon, which were then delivered to Afghanistan the pilots took their training to Russia."
_Pierre Tran in Paris and Vivek Raghuvanshi in New Delhi contributed to this report._

Could Su-35S Deal Edge Out Rafale in India?

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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Dassault can still probably defer the first payment *



That's wishful thinking, no company in the world and all the support industry would start the production of a full squad of fighters without the first payment. That's common procedure and even our own DPP makes such a payment clear.


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## PARIKRAMA

> *Editorial: Rafale a Better Option for India*
> 
> Now that Paris has shelved plans to deliver two helicopter assault ships to Russia, Moscow is working overtime to convince India to dump plans to buy French fighters and instead buy a new Sukhoi jet.
> 
> In 2012, New Delhi tapped Dassault's Rafale as its next fighter, with plans to acquire 126 of the twin-engine jets for $12 billion. At the time, Indian officials said the French jet would help them reduce their reliance on Russian equipment (India also flies French Mirage 2000 jets as part of a longstanding policy to avoid exclusive dependence on Moscow for military hardware).
> 
> By choosing Rafale, India also gains access to cutting-edge technology to advance its aerospace and defense industries.
> 
> But talks have stalled over price and who would bear responsibility for Rafales license-produced in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.
> 
> Russia is irked that its once-close ally has invested tens of billions of dollars on American transports, helicopters and maritime patrol planes and now is about to buy French jets.
> 
> At the recent IDEX trade show in Abu Dhabi, Rostec CEO Sergey Chemezov announced that Russia and India had inked a deal to co-develop a new version of Sukhoi's Su-35. Indian officials, however, say Russia has pitched the jet, but have not yet agreed to move forward on the project.
> 
> The Su-35 is a formidable aircraft and an improvement over India's Su-30s, but the Rafale is superior as a system, with greater mission capability and reliability. And its technology is more likely to serve as a foundation for a more competitive Indian defense and aerospace industry.
> 
> The entire rationale behind the Rafale deal wasn't to get the least expensive fighter to meet India's needs, but the aircraft that would best satisfy the nation's long-range military needs as well as its industrial interests.
> 
> Editorial: Rafale a Better Option for India
> 
> 
> /


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## drunken-monke

MokshaVimukthi said:


> You are a dad ?  Congratulations ....... boy or girl ?


I also became dad (boy). I joined this forum in 2010 when I just began my career when this competition was really on song and now in 2015 am dad.. 5 years.. Yet my posts are below 1000.. I am kind of reader... Specially post of sancho and some other TT/Professionals...

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## MokshaVimukthi

drunken-monke said:


> I also became dad (boy). I joined this forum in 2010 when I just began my career when this competition was really on song and now in 2015 am dad.. 5 years.. Yet my posts are below 1000.. I am kind of reader... Specially post of sancho and some other TT/Professionals...



Congratulations to you too.

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## PARIKRAMA

> *Dassault-HAL parleys on to beat deadlock*
> _By SP's Special Correspondent_
> 
> 
> 
> *March 07, 2015:* With PM Narendra Modi all set to visit France for the first time as prime minister next month, Dassault and HAL have begun negotiations to hammer out a liability sharing arrangement that could break the final hurdle to a contract for 126 Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force as part of the M-MRCA programme. At a meeting between French and Indian delegations at the MoD recently, it was made clear that the RFP was the final word on the subject of liability, and that it clearly stated that liability for all aircraft would be on the original equipment manufacturer. The stumbling block has since distilled down, with the government now giving Dassault Aviation a list of options it can exercise in terms of formulating a joint liability understanding with HAL. Should this be achievable, the path to a contract would presumably be clear. However, there remains the issue of finance for the programme, though the political leadership has made it clear that the M-MRCA will be funded adequately. Dassault CEO Eric Trappier told journalists in France this week that the company had entered into successful negotiations with HAL and was in the process of finalising an understanding. Any such liability arrangement would be a first in India, and unlike any comparable programme. For instance, HAL owns the liability on its license manufactured Su-30 MKIs at Nashik, not Rosoboronexport. It remains to be seen what the details of the final arrangement will be.
> 
> 
> 
> Dassault HAL parleys on to beat deadlock
> - SP's MAI

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## PARIKRAMA

> *Ditching Rafale – could mean a high risk alternative for IAF modernization*





> Mar 10, 2015
> _Unlike Rafale, which is an operational aircraft produced on a hot production line, the SU-50S is still in development and flight testing, let alone SU-50ES (FGFA) which is a high risk development product that has yet to be started._
> 
> What seems to be the final stage of negotiation between India and France over the procurement of 126 Rafale fighter jets is turning into a circus: New Delhi is walking on a tightrope, between approving the deal with a dramatic cost increase compared to the original budget, or ditching the plan, risking further delays in modernizing the Indian Air Force (IAF).
> 
> *The current chapter in the three-year-long saga opens with orchestrated media reports auguring an accelerated induction of Russian SU-50E – an export version of the – the Indian variant of the Russian T-50 PAK-FA – which would mean a ‘generation leap’ over the current IAF first line fighter jets as well as over the GEN-4.5 Rafale.*
> 
> While delivery of 18 fighters from France can be expected in time, the orderly delivery of the follow-on 108 locally produced aircraft is more questionable.* It was Dassault’s concern about the Indian competency to produce these aircraft at a reasonable quality which brought the negotiations with India to a standstill. Sukhoi sees this as an opportunity, since they have already paved the way with the SU-30 MKI currently produced in India. Sukhoi hopes the production of SU-50E and SU-55 (the two-seat Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft –FGFA) could continue where the production of SU-30 ends, providing a more manageable quality control process.*
> 
> *If this deal goes forward, the SU-50E is expected to be delivered from 2017 onwards with the IAF expected to induct over 300 aircraft in the following two decades at a cost of US$25 billion. *This is an extremely ambitious schedule, as the Russians themselves do not expect to receive their first SU-50 before the end of 2016. Currently undergoing flight testing as T-50 prototypes, the Russian Air Force expects forming 2-3 squadrons of fifth generation SU-50 by 2020.
> 
> The Indian export variants of the SU-50/55 are the biggest-ever bilateral Indo-Russian defence cooperation project. The preliminary design agreement on SU-50ES (FGFA), signed in 2010 between HAL and Russian Sukhoi Design Bureau, was to build the jet for use by both countries, with India investing 50 per cent of the cost of the multi-billion dollar programme.
> 
> Ditching Rafale – could mean a high risk alternative for IAF modernization | Defense Update:


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## pursuit of happiness

drunken-monke said:


> I also became dad (boy). I joined this forum in 2010 when I just began my career when this competition was really on song and now in 2015 am dad.. 5 years.. Yet my posts are below 1000.. I am kind of reader... Specially post of sancho and some other TT/Professionals...


--
congrats


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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Ditching Rafale – could mean a high risk alternative for IAF modernization*



That not correct, since only around 2 squads of Rafales would be inducted in India till 2020, which makes clear that Rafale has a minor effect to the numbers of squadrons in the short term, since at the same time around 4 MKI and at least 3 x LCA squads will be added too. So the IAF modernisation is based on the addition of 3 different types of fighters, not just one!
And since Russia intends to start producing the Pak Fa from next year onwards, they could deliver around 2 squads for India too, if required. That however doesn't give us the industrial advantages the whole MMRCA competition is based on.

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## India defense

PAK FA is far superior to Rafale....go for PAK FA.....

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## PARIKRAMA

*U.S. Navy Super Hornet refuels French Rafale and Super Etendard jets over USS Carl Vinson*




By David Cenciotti
*F/A-18E Super Hornet serves as aerial refueler for French combat planes operating from Charles De Gaulle aircraft carrier.*
The images in this post were taken on Mar. 9 over the Persian Gulf (or “Arabian Gulf” if you want to use the term used by the U.S. armed forces lately).

They show an F/A-18E Super Hornet from the Strike Fighter Squadron (VFA) 81 Sunliners refuel two French Super Étendard Marine and one Rafale Marine aircraft from French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle in the vicinity of U.S. aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson (CVN 70).





The French and American nuclear-powered aircraft carriers are currently deployed along with their battle groups to support strike operations in Iraq and Syria.

Last week a Rafale Marine “omnirole” aircraft belonging to the 11F operated aboard the USS Carl Vinson in the last of series of joint training events aimed at improving carrier integration.




The Aviationist » U.S. Navy Super Hornet refuels French Rafale and Super Etendard jets over USS Carl Vinson


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## PARIKRAMA

Courtesy Olybrius

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## halloweene

PARIKRAMA said:


> *U.S. Navy Super Hornet refuels French Rafale and Super Etendard jets over USS Carl Vinson*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By David Cenciotti
> *F/A-18E Super Hornet serves as aerial refueler for French combat planes operating from Charles De Gaulle aircraft carrier.*
> The images in this post were taken on Mar. 9 over the Persian Gulf (or “Arabian Gulf” if you want to use the term used by the U.S. armed forces lately).
> 
> They show an F/A-18E Super Hornet from the Strike Fighter Squadron (VFA) 81 Sunliners refuel two French Super Étendard Marine and one Rafale Marine aircraft from French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle in the vicinity of U.S. aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson (CVN 70).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The French and American nuclear-powered aircraft carriers are currently deployed along with their battle groups to support strike operations in Iraq and Syria.
> 
> Last week a Rafale Marine “omnirole” aircraft belonging to the 11F operated aboard the USS Carl Vinson in the last of series of joint training events aimed at improving carrier integration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Aviationist » U.S. Navy Super Hornet refuels French Rafale and Super Etendard jets over USS Carl Vinson


In fact atm Carl Vinson is in a harbour and US ships are operating with CDG. But nevermind


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## sancho

> *India's Rafale fighter jet deal stuck in doldrums*
> 
> 
> The multi-billion dollar Rafale fighter jet contract between India and France continues to face an impasse despite the two countries having agreed to "fast-track" the negotiations.
> 
> But while forward movement is awaited in this regard, defence sources made it clear *that the upcoming visit of Prime Minister Narendra Modi to France and the fighter jet deal were two separate issues* which cannot be linked, PTI reported.
> 
> "*There are some issues which still persist* because of which the final contract is pending for such a long time," defence sources said when asked if the issues relating to pricing and the guarantee clause had been sorted out.
> 
> Talking about chances that the deal would be worked out ahead of Modi's visit to France next month, the sources maintained the two were not linked.
> 
> "*The Rafale deal is not linked to the official visit of the Prime Minister. These are two separate things*. An official visit is not only about signing defence deals," the sources said.
> 
> *They made it clear that the makers of Rafale -- Dassault Aviation -- will have to stand by the clauses of the Request for Proposal (RFP) to which they had agreed*...



India's Rafale fighter jet deal stuck in doldrums : North, News - India Today


If true and the deal will not be signed during the visit, because Dassault still not able take responsibility, it would be another downer.


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> India's Rafale fighter jet deal stuck in doldrums : North, News - India Today
> 
> 
> If true and the deal will not be signed during the visit, because Dassault still not able take responsibility, it would be another downer.



Dont you think its time we let go .....with all these dramas and look for other alternatives...

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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> India's Rafale fighter jet deal stuck in doldrums : North, News - India Today
> 
> 
> If true and the deal will not be signed during the visit, because Dassault still not able take responsibility, it would be another downer.




This deal is turning out to be a royal pain in the butt. Wish everyone would make up their mind, one way or the other.

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## PARIKRAMA

Honestly, if Dassault and French government cant work out a deal signing when India PM modi is there, then its a golden chance missed. Then i think we all should fancy less abt this deal gng through. With so many programs here and there planned, the more the delay the more it loses its relevance and thus reduces its chance for the massive contract..

May be Dassault is just happy to supply advanced avionics to JF17 program !!!

@halloweene : Whats the lates friend? You attended their annual meeting? if yes, no one is asking any tough question for MMRCA or all are overjoyed with just Egypt? Even without annual meeting, what are the feelers from Dassault camp?


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> If true and the deal will not be signed during the visit, because Dassault still not able take responsibility, it would be another downer.


Were you really expecting it to be signed during the visit sir? This is contrary to established norms, India avoids making any such deals during offical visits and this has been reiterated time and again for multiple deals and yet the media still like to creat anticipation and are then surprised when nothing of the sort takes place.


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Dont you think its time we let go .....with all these dramas and look for other alternatives...



Let go in the sense of not making us more dependent on Dassault to finish this deal, yes!
It's a shame what Dassault did with this deal since late 2012 and we played along patiently, but without moving away from the requirements we set up from the start. We explained every little piece for Dassault again and again, to fix every little bit of the contract and still are at pretty much the same point as we were back then. MoD has to take the initiative now and have to make an informal request to the EF consortium about their point on the guarantee clause and how they had planned to deal with it, if they had been selected. Then MoD gets both, the security on how the EF consortium would deal with this crucial part "if the MoD would reject Rafale for none compliance to the requirements" and if they would comply, it puts more pressure on Dassault too.
But either way, we can't just wait till these foreign vendors gets their act together and have to take the necessary steps on our own. And if a sad decision to reject Rafale needs to be taken, it's unfortunate but not avoidable anymore!

It's not only the need of IAF for fighters that we have to keep in mind here, but also India's reputation, which already is not that high as a country that scraps and re-issues tenders on and on. But in this case it's Dassault that is stalling the deal for nearly 3 years now and if it fails, everybody will blame India and that is something we can't afford!

It's either Dassault takes it or not now, otherwise we move on with an alternative!

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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Let go in the sense of not making us more dependent on Dassault to finish this deal, yes!
> It's a shame what Dassault did with this deal since late 2012 and we played along patiently, but without moving away from the requirements we set up from the start. We explained every little piece for Dassault again and again, to fix every little bit of the contract and still are at pretty much the same point as we were back then. MoD has to take the initiative now and have to make an informal request to the EF consortium about their point on the guarantee clause and how they had planned to deal with it, if they had been selected. Then MoD gets both, the security on how the EF consortium would deal with this crucial part "if the MoD would reject Rafale for none compliance to the requirements" and if they would comply, it puts more pressure on Dassault too.
> But either way, we can't just wait till these foreign vendors gets their act together and have to take the necessary steps on our own. And if a sad decision to reject Rafale needs to be taken, it's unfortunate but not avoidable anymore!
> 
> It's not only the need of IAF for fighters that we have to keep in mind here, but also India's reputation, which already is not that high as a country that scraps and re-issues tenders on and on. But in this case it's Dassault that is stalling the deal for nearly 3 years now and if it fails, everybody will blame India and that is something we can't afford!
> 
> It's either Dassault takes it or not now, otherwise we move on with an alternative!




I dont understand how can we be so patient all these years.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Were you really expecting it to be signed during the visit sir?



It's not about the signature itself, but about fixing the deal and the aim was to fix it before the visit, which would result at least in a joint announcement at the visit and a nice photo-op for the officials. But this mess is going on for so many years and it's still about Dassault trying to avoid or divert responsibility!

Recap:


> Dec 9, 2012 -* Define HAL's role in MMRCA project: Dassault to Defence Ministry*
> 
> After bagging the multi-billion dollar deal for supplying 126 Rafale fighter aircraft to the IAF, French firm Dassault Aviation has asked the Defence Ministry to define the role of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in the project...
> 
> ...*The French company has told the Ministry that if it is given the overall responsibility for the project, it should be given the freedom to decide on the proportion of work to be done by the HAL and private companies in the programme*, they said.



Define HAL's role in MMRCA project: Dassault to Defence Ministry - Economic Times

That's the moment the deal went the wrong way and till now, we still negotiating about things that were known for years! 



SpArK said:


> I dont understand how can we be so patient all these years.



Because the Rafale as a fighter and as an offer in the tender, was the best choice for India (capability of the fighter, industrial offer and costs of around $16 billion)
Because we had a long and trustworthy relationship to France (which we still have) and Dassault (which is questionable now)
But also because of the elections and the government change in between, since you can't do much shortly before or after the elections

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## PARIKRAMA

*Caroline Bruneau* @BruneauCaroline · 5h5 hours ago
#Rafale #mmrca #Dassault "has not change his offer, does not communicate on the amount" - Trappier



*Caroline Bruneau* @BruneauCaroline · 6h6 hours ago
#Dassault 2014 dividend 10€/share . 23% payout



*Caroline Bruneau* @BruneauCaroline · 6h6 hours ago
#Dassault operationnal income 353 m€ / operationnal margin 9.7%



*Caroline Bruneau* @BruneauCaroline · 6h6 hours ago
#Dassault net adjusted income 2014 : 398m€



*Caroline Bruneau* @BruneauCaroline · 6h6 hours ago
#Dassault aviation sales 2014 : 3,68 B €



*Caroline Bruneau* @BruneauCaroline · 6h6 hours ago
11 #Rafale delivered to #France. 137 entered service so far. 43 still to deliver.



*Caroline Bruneau* @BruneauCaroline · 6h6 hours ago
Talks continue closely with India and production is organized in details #Dassault #Rafale #mmrca

Same old Same old...

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## nik22

sancho said:


> Let go in the sense of not making us more dependent on Dassault to finish this deal, yes!
> It's a shame what Dassault did with this deal since late 2012 and we played along patiently, but without moving away from the requirements we set up from the start. We explained every little piece for Dassault again and again, to fix every little bit of the contract and still are at pretty much the same point as we were back then. MoD has to take the initiative now and have to make an informal request to the EF consortium about their point on the guarantee clause and how they had planned to deal with it, if they had been selected. Then MoD gets both, the security on how the EF consortium would deal with this crucial part "if the MoD would reject Rafale for none compliance to the requirements" and if they would comply, it puts more pressure on Dassault too.
> But either way, we can't just wait till these foreign vendors gets their act together and have to take the necessary steps on our own. And if a sad decision to reject Rafale needs to be taken, it's unfortunate but not avoidable anymore!
> 
> It's not only the need of IAF for fighters that we have to keep in mind here, but also India's reputation, which already is not that high as a country that scraps and re-issues tenders on and on. But in this case it's Dassault that is stalling the deal for nearly 3 years now and if it fails, everybody will blame India and that is something we can't afford!
> 
> It's either Dassault takes it or not now, otherwise we move on with an alternative!


Dassault might be hoping India would eventually go on their terms like Mirage upgrade deal. They could be really wrong this time . I guess Govt has made its mind. Increased rigor on FGFA looks to be part of plan. I think India can not afford FGFA and Rafale for its air force. That would really suck out money from other services.


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## sancho

nik22 said:


> Dassault might be hoping India would eventually go on their terms like Mirage upgrade deal. They could be really wrong this time . I guess Govt has made its mind. Increased rigor on FGFA looks to be part of plan. I think India can not afford FGFA and Rafale for its air force. That would really suck out money from other services.



What they hope is not important, only what the RFP and DPP states is. They just have to say if they comply or not.
FGFA has no relation to MMRCA, both were always considered as seperate deals for different purposes.


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## nik22

sancho said:


> What they hope is not important, only what the RFP and DPP states is. They just have to say if they comply or not.
> FGFA has no relation to MMRCA, both were always considered as seperate deals for different purposes.


I know these are two separate programs but somewhere money has to come from. Navy and Army has dire needs. Navy is on ICU for their submarine. They need more than 150k crore for 6 ssk + 6 SSN + SSBN. That is like $25B for next 10-15 years. Army needs $10B for mountain unit. If India go for Rafale + FGFA both, that is like $40B (15 + 25). Now again in next 10- 15 years. This is like $75B of capital budget. That is just the major projects counted. Total requirement is much more + capital for ongoing projects. No way Govt can spend that much money when focus is to cut down fiscal deficit.

If you would have to cut down some spending where would you do? I don't see happening with Navy and Army.

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## sancho

nik22 said:


> This is like $75B of capital budget.



Actually the plan is to spend up to $100 billions over the next 10 years as several reports and statements said.



nik22 said:


> If you would have to cut down some spending where would you do?



There is no need to cut, but to do proper increases based on the growing economy and use the available budget in a proper manner. Jaguar upgrade is largely a waste and we should be aiming on selling them rather than keep them. Apache procurement is a waste, by the fact that there is no operational need in IAF for it. Chinook order is not only a waste of money, but makes IAF effectively less capable than they are today with Mi 26s. These 3 examples alone, could safe a lot of money in the budget, but that's another topic and you might want to open a new thread for discussions on that.

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## SpArK

*Warranty Compromise Agreed on India Rafale Contract*
(Source: Defense-Aerospace.com; published Mar 11, 2015)

(By Giovanni de Briganti)

PARIS --- *A compromise solution splitting contractual warranties between France’s Dassault Aviation and India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) has removed the biggest obstacle to closing the long-delayed sale of 126 Rafale fighters to India*.

Dassault chief executive Eric Trappier confirmed* here today that the compromise solution makes each company contractually responsible for its own work on the contract. This is of crucial long-term importance as HAL is due to gradually assume a bigger share of the 108 Rafales it is due to assemble, and ultimately manufacture, in India. *

“Now, th*ere will be a shared warranty as each partner will be responsible for its own work, Trappier told reporters here, “and HAL will provide warranties for its own work.” The Indian government *has been insisting that Dassault take responsibility for the aircraft assembled by HAL, over which it had no control, and both sides have wrangling over this point for the best part of two years.

*This is the same warranty arrangement that is currently in force for the two companies’ work on the ongoing upgrade of India’s fleet of Mirage 2000H fighters, and it is not clear why it was not adopted from the start. A senior Dassault executive said “taking responsibility is the only way to grow up and to gain experience,” and it is what Indian manufacturers must do to implement the governments “Make In India” policy. *

For the Mirage upgrade, *Dassault is supplying the first two complete upgraded aircraft – they are due to be delivered in the coming weeks – while the rest will be upgraded by HAL in Bangalore. HAL will provide the warranty for the latter, with Dassault providing assistance as necessary. *

Trappier was careful to note that resolution of the warranty issue does not mean an immediate signature of the Rafale contract, as this is always a long process in India as many administrative levels are involved. _(The long-overdue report of the Contract Negotiation Committee, which is necessary for the Rafale contract to be approved, has still not been released—Ed.)_

Dassault has replied to a request for information from the Indian Navy on the naval Rafale M single-seat carrier-capable variant of its fighter, Trappier said, but this aspect has been overshadowed by the main contract.

He also declined to provide* any clarity among the conflicting cost figures published in India on the Rafale contract, but he did say that, in euros, its cost has not increased since 2012. And the euro’s depreciation compared to the US dollar makes Rafale more competitive than its foreign competitors, he added. *

According to current plans, Dassault is to build and deliver the first 18 Rafales from its own production line at Bordeaux-Mérignac, but HAL will assemble all aircraft beginning with the 19th aircraft, and will manufacture a gradually bigger share of the aircraft so that, by the time the 126th is delivered, it has become practically autonomous.

Trappier also dismissed reports in the Indian press that the Rafale deal will be replaced by a new buy of Russian fighters. “I see that Rafale is a fighter that scares the Russians, but we are not afraid of their fighters,” he said, adding that Russian competitors had been eliminated from the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition that Rafale ultimately won.

-ends-


Warranty Compromise Agreed on India Rafale Contract

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## PARIKRAMA

Is individual warranty as per RFP? or its a grey area? Either way its a climbdown from India's position, so what had french gave up as compromise? If its not a good bargain, MOD will find it difficult to explain the reason for this climbdown


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## shaileshmd

nik22 said:


> I know these are two separate programs but somewhere money has to come from. Navy and Army has dire needs. Navy is on ICU for their submarine. They need more than 150k crore for 6 ssk + 6 SSN + SSBN. That is like $25B for next 10-15 years. Army needs $10B for mountain unit. If India go for Rafale + FGFA both, that is like $40B (15 + 25). Now again in next 10- 15 years. This is like $75B of capital budget. That is just the major projects counted. Total requirement is much more + capital for ongoing projects. No way Govt can spend that much money when focus is to cut down fiscal deficit.
> 
> If you would have to cut down some spending where would you do? I don't see happening with Navy and Army.


Here are some important ways to reduce spending, and improve the cash flow
1) All GOI employees must increase productivity to private sector level.
2) All benefits and salaries should be comparable to private sector
3) Redundancy should be removed at all costs ( e.g. One Lt GOV in previous GOI had 31 drivers and commando guards!
4) Aggressively go after known corrupt officials who have amassed " billions" in cash, property and real estate. The previous chief engineer in UP GOV may have accumulated 100 billion RS in wealth. This money belongs to people of India. All real transactions should be audited. The 6/40 rule practiced in the industry is draining the country of massive revenue. Increase the property tax to realistic level. Once property tax increase comes in play, all services can be provided properly. This will increase employment, more enforcement of rules and regulations. 
5) Bribers must bear massive fines, and jail terms no less than 10 years to prevent " palm greasing".
6) GOV owned under productive industries should be sold, or managed by the professional consultant teams of technical experts.
7) Realistic productivity goals should be expected from all GOI owned ventures
8) The internal revenue svc should be an independent agency. Massive training, and professional management with additional staff to prevent loss of taxes is must. Only 3 percent of the earning population is paying taxes. Proper auditing and loss prevention techniques can increase the revenue by thousand percent in no time. Many service based industries are cash only. Restaurants, small self employed merchandise sellers etc pay very little taxes. A mandatory electronic sales and receipts device will immediately control the tax pilferages. Periodic video monitoring, purchase and sales receipts tally and aggressive punishment for tax evasion will curb most, if not all black money. Manufactures and wholesalers encouraging cash business should be forced to submit all sales data to the retailers electronically to the auditors. Armed with this information, the retailer has limited chance of pilferage.


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> This is the same warranty arrangement that is currently in force for the two companies’ work on the ongoing upgrade of India’s fleet of Mirage 2000H fighters, and it is not clear why it was not adopted from the start.



Which shows how silly Dassault is moving in this negotiations, when they reach the same level of warranty only now, after 3 years of negotiations and still are not able to meet what the MoD wants since day one of the competition.
But this article is mainly based on the statements Eric Trappier gave some days ago:



PARIKRAMA said:


> FINALIZE THE CONTRACT
> 
> The leader returned to the Indian contract. Negotiations for the sale of 126 Rafale last for more than three years.
> 
> _"The Indian Air Force is extremely pleased with the technical definitions. *We finalized our industrial agreements* with the largest industrial partner HAL has manufactured many of the aircraft locally_ensures the leader. _*We have a contractual sharing of tasks on which we agreed*. *Now we have to finalize the contract with the Indian Ministry of Defence* "_



Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 42

So no matter what Dassault and HAL agree on wrt the workshare, the issue is about Dassault taking responsibility for the overall deal, according to the requirements of the MoD!



PARIKRAMA said:


> Is individual warranty as per RFP? or its a grey area?



Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 13

That's not the issue, since the DPP clearly states, that the OEM is only responsible for issues caused by or attributed to him. If Dassault provide faulty toolings or parts, that causes delays in the HAL's production, Dassault is responsible anyway, just as HAL would be for production mistakes from their side.
The real issue is the "performance guarantee", similar to the naval gun production case:



> *The MoD also wanted the vendors to undertake production, quality control and timeline guarantees* for the BHEL-produced naval guns but without providing the vendor with executive or supervisory authority over the public sector company.



So that issue is the pending one, which Dassault first tried to avoid by deviate from the RFP and make Reliance the prime contractor, since they would have more control over the production line. But since IAF and all MoD's were stern about not moving away from the RFP and insisting on HAL, Dassault had to agree on the workshare, but still hasitate on the performance guarantees till now.

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## wiseone2

PARIKRAMA said:


> Honestly, if Dassault and French government cant work out a deal signing when India PM modi is there, then its a golden chance missed. Then i think we all should fancy less abt this deal gng through. With so many programs here and there planned, the more the delay the more it loses its relevance and thus reduces its chance for the massive contract..
> 
> May be Dassault is just happy to supply advanced avionics to JF17 program !!!
> 
> @halloweene : Whats the lates friend? You attended their annual meeting? if yes, no one is asking any tough question for MMRCA or all are overjoyed with just Egypt? Even without annual meeting, what are the feelers from Dassault camp?



india mirage-2000 upgrade is worth more $$$ than the jf-17 program


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## Major Shaitan Singh

*Rafales next to the Chengdu J-10*

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## Superboy

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> *Rafales next to the Chengdu J-10*




That's J-10A. Ugly and obsolete. They have J-10B operational now.


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## Abingdonboy

*Dassault, HAL To Be Co-Contractors On Indian-Built Rafales*

_SAINT-CLOUD and PARIS – France’s bid to sell 126 Rafale combat jets to India moved a step closer to reality in recent weeks, with Dassault Aviation and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) reaching an agreement as to who will be responsible for guaranteeing 108 Indian-built aircraft required under the deal.

The first 18 Rafale jets are to be built in France. After that, India’s HAL would take over production of the remaining aircraft.
_
_*"This is the first time Dassault agrees to be a co-contractor," Dassault CEO Eric Trappier said following his company’s annual earnings conference March 11. "Dassault and HAL will both take responsibility for the part they will each build on the Rafale aircraft made in India," he continued, asserting the commitment is in line with the Indian government’s initial request for proposals under the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender.*_
_
Trappier’s comments track with those of French defense procurement chief Laurent Collet-Billon in February: "Dassault will not be responsible for the whole contract," Collet-Billon said. "It is a co-management setup," meaning France will not assume full liability for the HAL-produced aircraft, and therefore HAL will not be a subcontractor to Dassault.

The question of production of Rafale aircraft on Indian soil has been one of the main sticking points between Paris and *New Delhi in talks over the estimated €10.2 billion ($12 billion) *agreement underway for the past three years.Trappier did not confirm the amount of the MMRCA contract, saying only that Dassault’s offer "stays the same."

The Dassault-built Rafale chalked up its first export sale in February with a contract to sell 24 of the combat jets to Egypt, along with a Fremm multi-mission frigate built by French shipbuilder DCNS.
"The first check arrived at the beginning of the week," Trappier said, adding that three of the aircraft will be delivered this year. He said Paris and Cairo are now discussing delivery rates for the coming years. Dassault is currently producing 11 Rafales a year for the French air force and navy, but Trappier says the factory could raise production to "a bit over 2.5 a month, if needed."
[...] _

More:
http://aviationweek.com/defense/dass...-built-rafales

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> *Dassault, HAL To Be Co-Contractors On Indian-Built Rafales*
> 
> France’s bid to sell 126 Rafale combat jets to India moved a step closer to reality in recent weeks, with Dassault Aviation and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) reaching an agreement as to who will be responsible for guaranteeing 108 Indian-built aircraft required under the deal...
> 
> ..."This is the first time Dassault agrees to be a co-contractor," Dassault CEO Eric Trappier said following his company’s annual earnings conference March 11. "*Dassault and HAL will both take responsibility for the part they will each build on the Rafale aircraft made in India*," he continued, *asserting the commitment is in line with the Indian government’s initial request for proposals under the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender*.
> 
> Trappier’s comments track with those of French defense procurement chief Laurent Collet-Billon in February: "*Dassault will not be responsible for the whole contract," Collet-Billon said. "It is a co-management setup," meaning France will not assume full liability for the HAL-produced aircraft, and therefore HAL will not be a subcontractor to Dassault*.



Two things,
1) co-responsibility is better than nothing, but it must be shared at an equal base till the end, not linked to HAL's workshare, otherwise the shared responsibility would still not work according to the requirements.
2) It's interesting that Mr Trappier basically admits now, that this responsibility clause was in the RFP, which was denied before!

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> 2) It's interesting that Mr Trappier basically admits now, that this responsibility clause was in the RFP, which was denied before!


Yes, I thought this was an interesting departure from Dassualt's past statements that basically claimed they were compliing with the RFPs fully and that there was no such liabilty clause contained within it- the waters do muddy.

+ @sancho note the quoted/reported price. It is interesting that the $12 Bn figure is consistently used in the French media now, nothing as abusrd as $20 billion+ has been reported by these responsible journalists.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> note the quoted/reported price. It is interesting that the $12 Bn figure is consistently used in the French media now, nothing as abusrd as $20 billion+ has been reported by these responsible journalists.



As the article itself stated, Dassault didn't confirmed the figure, so it remains to be just another estimate. Personally I think that figure is too low and I stick with my estimate of around $16 billion, lets see.


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## Sri

Abingdonboy said:


> Yes, I thought this was an interesting departure from Dassualt's past statements that basically claimed they were compliing with the RFPs fully and that there was no such liabilty clause contained within it- the waters do muddy.
> 
> + @sancho note the quoted/reported price. It is interesting that the $12 Bn figure is consistently used in the French media now, nothing as abusrd as $20 billion+ has been reported by these responsible journalists.


The $12 billion might be flyaway cost which means cost of each bird little less than $100 million which was our guess and I believe the lifetime cost might be $20 billion which I think is also fine. 
any thoughts 
tx

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> As the article itself stated, Dassault didn't confirmed the figure, so it remains to be just another estimate. Personally I think that figure is too low and I stick with my estimate of around $16 billion, lets see.



$12 Billion does sound too low, this was the intial estimate back 2008-10 IIRC so one has to factor in inflation and ER flucuations.

I'm sticking to the $15-16 Billion figure that I have been repeating since June 2014

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## Sri

Sri said:


> The $12 billion might be flyaway cost which means cost of each bird little less than $100 million which was our guess and I believe the lifetime cost might be $20 billion which I think is also fine.
> any thoughts
> tx


An interesting link of approx flyaway cost: Modern aircraft flyaway costs « Defense Issues


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## Abingdonboy

Sri said:


> The $12 billion might be flyaway cost which means cost of each bird little less than $100 million which was our guess and I believe the lifetime cost might be $20 billion which I think is also fine.
> any thoughts
> tx


I don't think so.
a) no one is going to make life-cycle costs public, this just isn't how these things work
b) it is said, as a rule of thumb, that life cycle costs are 3 times the flyaway/unit cost so over the life span, if the $12 billion was the unit/flyaway cost, the lifecycle cost would be around $36 billion. 

The $12-16 billion figure takes into account training, spares, ToT, setting up of infrastrcuture etc etc (not to mention 50% of this has to be ploughed back into India under offsets).

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## Sri

Abingdonboy said:


> I don't think so.
> a) no one is going to make life-cycle costs public, this just isn't how these things work
> b) it is said, as a rule of thumb, that life cycle costs are 3 times the flyaway/unit cost so over the life span, if the $12 billion was the unit/flyaway cost, the lifecycle cost would be around $36 billion.
> 
> The $12-16 billion figure takes into account training, spares, ToT, setting up of infrastrcuture etc etc (not to mention 50% of this has to be ploughed back into India under offsets).


Agreed.
But GOI/IAF usually keeps all numbers separately so that the figure looks small, in this case the $12 billion is from French media so I still believe the $12 billion is flyaway cost and as you said $3-4 billion for training+ weapons etc. and the life cycle costs were always speculated anywhere between 20 to 30 billion.


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## PARIKRAMA

*Russian Media Latest
UK to Offer Eurofighters Should India Scrap Rafale Deal*

UK Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said that the United Kingdom could offer Eurofighters to India if India’s long-disputed deal to acquire French Rafale jets falls through.

British authorities are aware that the “deal with Dassault has not gone smoothly,” Hammond said, adding that the United Kingdom sees this as an opportunity to offer Eurofighters if India opens an official competitive bidding.

Hammond, who is currently on a two-day trip to India, noted that he had not raised the issue with Indian authorities in the course of the ongoing meetings.

UK to Offer Eurofighters Should India Scrap Rafale Deal / Sputnik International

Customery line to media but not raised when Mr Hammond met Indian Authorities.. Wow

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Russian Media Latest
> UK to Offer Eurofighters Should India Scrap Rafale Deal*
> 
> UK Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said that the United Kingdom could offer Eurofighters to India if India’s long-disputed deal to acquire French Rafale jets falls through.
> 
> British authorities are aware that the “deal with Dassault has not gone smoothly,” Hammond said, adding that the United Kingdom sees this as an opportunity to offer Eurofighters if India opens an official competitive bidding.
> *
> Hammond, who is currently on a two-day trip to India, noted that he had not raised the issue with Indian authorities in the course of the ongoing meetings.*
> 
> UK to Offer Eurofighters Should India Scrap Rafale Deal / Sputnik International
> *
> Customery line to media but not raised when Mr Hammond met Indian Authorities.. Wow*


That it most unexpected, this would be a pretty standard thing to do just to go through the motions at the very least. All I can think is that the Indian side communicated beforehand that the MMRCA deal wouldn't be on the agenda for this meeting.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> That it most unexpected



Why? If the Rafale is rejected, the next logical choice is the EF, so they don't offer something new here. All they say is, if that happens, they are ready and I'm sure the backchannel proposals are more detailed. But as it stands, Rafale is the L1 and going to the L2 is only possible when the L1 was rejected.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Why? If the Rafale is rejected, the next logical choice is the EF, so they don't offer something new here. All they say is, if that happens, they are ready and I'm sure the backchannel proposals are more detailed. But as it stands, Rafale is the L1 and going to the L2 is only possible when the L1 was rejected.


Well, until now, every British/German offical that has met with a Indian minister of defence/foreign minister has at least touched upon the EFT sale to India AFAIK.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Well, until now, every British/German offical that has met with a Indian minister of defence/foreign minister has at least touched upon the EFT sale to India AFAIK.



Of course, but since the selection of Rafale as L1, they always stated that they are ready to provide the EF in case the Rafale deal fails. That's also what the Germans said last year, when they also rumoredly proposed a better offer. The official status is, we are negotiation only with Dassault now and only when that doesn't work out, we can move to an alternative, be it the EF or additional MKIs...


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## PARIKRAMA

*LoungeAvenue Group *‏@LoungeAvenue  6h6 hours ago
Rafale fighter on it's way to bomb IS

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## kirankumar299

I think we should close this thread....i'm fed up reading about MMRCA for all these years  and open a new one if we ever sign this deal

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## Abingdonboy

kirankumar299 said:


> I think we should close this thread....i'm fed up reading about MMRCA for all these years  and open a new one if we ever sign this deal


Mate, no one is aksing you to visit this thread, you can ignore it until the time comes that it is signed...

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## CONNAN

*Rafale fighter jet deal not yet finalised: Parrikar*

New Delhi, Mar 13: 
India’s multi-billion dollar Rafale fighter jet contract with France has not been finalised yet and is still in the negotiation stage, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar informed Lok Sabha today.

“Rafael deal is not through or final. If it is at all finalised in future, it will take time. I would not like to comment on it as it is still in the negotiation stage,” he said during question hour.

The Rafale deal for 126 jets is estimated to cost over US$ 20 billion over the next decade and is considered to be the biggest global defence tender.

The Defence Minister said the Defence Acquisition Council has recently cleared 44 projects worth Rs. 1,34,000 crore and all of them were critical for the armed forces.

“We are trying to fast track our defence acquisition process. One example is bullet-proof jacket. We have already ordered 50,000 bullet proof jacket and 50,000 more are expected to be ordered shortly...,” he said.

Parrikar said his Ministry was ensuring that all three wings of the armed forces coordinate with each other for inclusiveness rather than exclusiveness, so that duplication is avoided while acquiring defence products.

Observing that some critical shortages in ammunitions were being addressed, he said a constant endeavour was made for upgrading the conventional equipment, developing new technologies and acquiring contemporary systems.

“Mismatches between requirements and availability can sometimes occur which are continually address by the on-going procurement process,” he said.

Parrikar said unsafe and outdated equipment were not utilised by defence forces. Ageing of equipment is a natural process and is dealt with through proper maintenance, obsolescence management, upgrades and acquisition of new equipment.

The Defence Acquisition Council has decided for procurement of light helicopters under the ‘buy and make’ category. Five cases of procurement of small arms are at different stages of the procurement cycle, he said.

Rafale fighter jet deal not yet finalised: Parrikar | Business Line

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## PARIKRAMA

*Reply to Bharat Karnad's article*

*A Rafale Fable*
By Manmohan Bahadur

Published: 13th March 2015 06:00 AM

Last Updated: 12th March 2015 10:31 PM

A bit of unsolicited advice for the defence minister; he can close down the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) directorate of air staff requirements at Air Headquarters as also the Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment in Bangalore. The former decides IAF’s operational requirements in terms of equipment and the latter, with its trained flight test aircrew and technical officers, evaluates aircraft and other equipment that come for trials before induction into the IAF.* These are costly set-ups but are a waste, for there are armchair “experts” who know better and have reached such heights of competence that they are suggesting sacking of the Air Chief for a supposed shortfall of professional acumen (not having a Plan B, in case the Rafale contract does not take place)! Bharat Karnad’s “Terminate the Rafale Deal” (TNIE, March 06, 2014) is another fable from the quiver of an aviation non professional; in normal course these views would have been ignored, but having been carried to lakhs of Indians by this esteemed newspaper, the facts need to be set straight.*

Air defence is in safe hands and the IAF’s deterrence posture is adequate to ward off any misadventures; what is also true, however, is that depleting squadron strength, which is the cutting edge of any Air Force, needs to be addressed pretty soon. The IAF, after a thorough evaluation, found that only the Rafale and Eurofighter met the operational requirements of a Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA); the evaluation of the commercial bids found the French Rafale, made by Marcel Dassault, to be cheaper.

*Fingers are now being raised on the selection by IAF flight test experts (super specialists in medical terms) questioning the “fighting quality of the aircraft”.* The selection process is explicitly enumerated in the Defence Procurement Procedure and was followed to the T. Six aircraft from five countries were put through a rigorous evaluation in the Indian environment over a period of two years and the evaluation report submitted to the government; that not a squeak against the evaluation was heard is testimony to the professionalism of the valuation. *But now, as the government’s decision is near (as one hopes it is), the doubting Thomases have got into their usual game of introducing red herrings—ever wondered why these things happen whenever a big project of any wing of the armed forces is nearing fruition?*

*Questions have also been raised on the integrity and professional competence of the Price Negotiation Committees (PNC) of the ministry of defence (MoD) for their supposed inability to demand our monies’ worth from Marcel Dassault.* If they are incompetent, then this trait would be true for a Rafale contract as well as for a Sukhoi or any buy of the services, in which case we are doomed as a nation! *That contract discussions have taken this long attests to the fact that the MoD is ensuring that India gets its due. A techno-financial angle has been introduced in the debate stating that it would be better to acquire more numbers of cheaper Su-30s and Tejas Mk2s for the same monies as the 126 Rafales. This only speaks volumes of the professional ignorance of the analyst.*

A nation evaluates its threats and from that flows the capability required by the services to counter them. There is no aircraft that can alone perform all the tasks (how one wishes it was so) that come the Air Force’s way and from that flows selection of different role-based acquisitions.* The Su-30 is an air dominance fighter while the Rafale is a medium multi-role aircraft; one can only complement the other and not be a replacement for it.* The capabilities of the two are vastly different. While both have similar external carriage capacity, the flight range of the Rafale is almost three times that of the Su-30 (with similar external load and without air-to-air refueling). The Rafale has the active electronically scanned array radar while the Su-30 has one of older technology. The survivability of the Rafale is much better due its state-of-the-art electronic warfare suite. The Sukhoi requires two aircrews while the Rafale is a single-pilot aircraft—hence the training requirements would more than double in case of the Sukhoi, a huge task in itself*. The Rafale’s wingspan is small and it fits into existing blast pens on our airfields while the Sukhoi requires costly bigger ones to be constructed. The differences are many but each aircraft has a unique place in the war fighting calculus of the IAF. The catchword is “role”; an air force decides what are the roles that it needs to perform and accordingly recommends the proposal that meets the qualitative requirements. The IAF has done just that and would perform its role with the equipment it possesses when the balloon goes up—it’s the only Plan, Plan A that it has*. A Plan B? What’s that?

Now to the really strange issue raised by the “analyst” of Rafales being procured by Qatar, being flown by Pakistani pilots and being upgraded by Saudi money and being transferred to China for a strip evaluation such that when IAF Rafales get into a fight with the Chinese, their air defence system would shoot them out of the sky! Incidentally, the Chinese have the Su-30 MKK in their inventory and are going to get the Su-35 very soon; one wonders how the Su-30 MKI would be a total mystery for them and escape their air defence but the Rafale would not? Does the analyst realise that he is passing this judgment on a professional outfit like the IAF? And he adds that the French “…won’t allow the indigenous Brahmos supersonic cruise missile to take out targets inside China from standoff range”. The Brahmos is yet to fly on the Su-30 and the Rafale is yet to come in to IAF; one wonders why Dassault has refused permission for mounting the Brahmos on the Rafale without the IAF even asking for it?

Readers of this newspaper can rest assured that their Air Force is held in high esteem for its professionalism in choosing its equipment and using it in war. Sleep well dear countrymen and women—our skies are safe and will remain so!

*The writer, a retired Air Vice Marshal, is a distinguished fellow at Centre for Air Power Studies. Email: m_bahadur@rediffmail.com

A Rafale Fable -The New Indian Express*

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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Reply to Bharat Karnad's article*
> 
> *A Rafale Fable*
> By Manmohan Bahadur



Nice reply and some interesting points that he raises on basic operational differences of Rafale compared to MKI.


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## Ind4Ever

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Reply to Bharat Karnad's article*
> 
> *A Rafale Fable*
> By Manmohan Bahadur
> 
> Published: 13th March 2015 06:00 AM
> 
> Last Updated: 12th March 2015 10:31 PM
> 
> A bit of unsolicited advice for the defence minister; he can close down the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) directorate of air staff requirements at Air Headquarters as also the Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment in Bangalore. The former decides IAF’s operational requirements in terms of equipment and the latter, with its trained flight test aircrew and technical officers, evaluates aircraft and other equipment that come for trials before induction into the IAF.* These are costly set-ups but are a waste, for there are armchair “experts” who know better and have reached such heights of competence that they are suggesting sacking of the Air Chief for a supposed shortfall of professional acumen (not having a Plan B, in case the Rafale contract does not take place)! Bharat Karnad’s “Terminate the Rafale Deal” (TNIE, March 06, 2014) is another fable from the quiver of an aviation non professional; in normal course these views would have been ignored, but having been carried to lakhs of Indians by this esteemed newspaper, the facts need to be set straight.*
> 
> Air defence is in safe hands and the IAF’s deterrence posture is adequate to ward off any misadventures; what is also true, however, is that depleting squadron strength, which is the cutting edge of any Air Force, needs to be addressed pretty soon. The IAF, after a thorough evaluation, found that only the Rafale and Eurofighter met the operational requirements of a Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA); the evaluation of the commercial bids found the French Rafale, made by Marcel Dassault, to be cheaper.
> 
> *Fingers are now being raised on the selection by IAF flight test experts (super specialists in medical terms) questioning the “fighting quality of the aircraft”.* The selection process is explicitly enumerated in the Defence Procurement Procedure and was followed to the T. Six aircraft from five countries were put through a rigorous evaluation in the Indian environment over a period of two years and the evaluation report submitted to the government; that not a squeak against the evaluation was heard is testimony to the professionalism of the valuation. *But now, as the government’s decision is near (as one hopes it is), the doubting Thomases have got into their usual game of introducing red herrings—ever wondered why these things happen whenever a big project of any wing of the armed forces is nearing fruition?*
> 
> *Questions have also been raised on the integrity and professional competence of the Price Negotiation Committees (PNC) of the ministry of defence (MoD) for their supposed inability to demand our monies’ worth from Marcel Dassault.* If they are incompetent, then this trait would be true for a Rafale contract as well as for a Sukhoi or any buy of the services, in which case we are doomed as a nation! *That contract discussions have taken this long attests to the fact that the MoD is ensuring that India gets its due. A techno-financial angle has been introduced in the debate stating that it would be better to acquire more numbers of cheaper Su-30s and Tejas Mk2s for the same monies as the 126 Rafales. This only speaks volumes of the professional ignorance of the analyst.*
> 
> A nation evaluates its threats and from that flows the capability required by the services to counter them. There is no aircraft that can alone perform all the tasks (how one wishes it was so) that come the Air Force’s way and from that flows selection of different role-based acquisitions.* The Su-30 is an air dominance fighter while the Rafale is a medium multi-role aircraft; one can only complement the other and not be a replacement for it.* The capabilities of the two are vastly different. While both have similar external carriage capacity, the flight range of the Rafale is almost three times that of the Su-30 (with similar external load and without air-to-air refueling). The Rafale has the active electronically scanned array radar while the Su-30 has one of older technology. The survivability of the Rafale is much better due its state-of-the-art electronic warfare suite. The Sukhoi requires two aircrews while the Rafale is a single-pilot aircraft—hence the training requirements would more than double in case of the Sukhoi, a huge task in itself*. The Rafale’s wingspan is small and it fits into existing blast pens on our airfields while the Sukhoi requires costly bigger ones to be constructed. The differences are many but each aircraft has a unique place in the war fighting calculus of the IAF. The catchword is “role”; an air force decides what are the roles that it needs to perform and accordingly recommends the proposal that meets the qualitative requirements. The IAF has done just that and would perform its role with the equipment it possesses when the balloon goes up—it’s the only Plan, Plan A that it has*. A Plan B? What’s that?
> 
> Now to the really strange issue raised by the “analyst” of Rafales being procured by Qatar, being flown by Pakistani pilots and being upgraded by Saudi money and being transferred to China for a strip evaluation such that when IAF Rafales get into a fight with the Chinese, their air defence system would shoot them out of the sky! Incidentally, the Chinese have the Su-30 MKK in their inventory and are going to get the Su-35 very soon; one wonders how the Su-30 MKI would be a total mystery for them and escape their air defence but the Rafale would not? Does the analyst realise that he is passing this judgment on a professional outfit like the IAF? And he adds that the French “…won’t allow the indigenous Brahmos supersonic cruise missile to take out targets inside China from standoff range”. The Brahmos is yet to fly on the Su-30 and the Rafale is yet to come in to IAF; one wonders why Dassault has refused permission for mounting the Brahmos on the Rafale without the IAF even asking for it?
> 
> Readers of this newspaper can rest assured that their Air Force is held in high esteem for its professionalism in choosing its equipment and using it in war. Sleep well dear countrymen and women—our skies are safe and will remain so!
> 
> *The writer, a retired Air Vice Marshal, is a distinguished fellow at Centre for Air Power Studies. Email: m_bahadur@rediffmail.com
> 
> A Rafale Fable -The New Indian Express*




Fine french are too demanding ! And deal is going no where don't you think it's getting too late and the 4+ generation fighter technology will have many challenges in the near future at the time when Chinese are advancing with AESA radar technology? 

And the replacement Sukoi is not the MKI most probably the SU35S. Su35 in the current form itself will give a nice run for Rafale . It's different beast . Apples and oranges . But it's is supposed to be having more advanced Radar with great range and wide range armaments will be configured. And don't you think it's a better move that to go for SU35S 5th generation fighter until we get our AMCA ? For strategic bombing raids we can fly our MiG 29 upg along with Jags and Mirage . Which are upgraded to the teeth. 


Don't mistake me . If we can get or sign this deal by this year itself I will be very happy . But we don't have time to wait for things to unfold. Remember we have to replace our Mig27 and infamous flying coffin 21s ? Huh ?


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## migflug

I hope this deal will be signed by the end of decade


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## Storm Force

Is this happening or not 

It's embaressing now


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## Corsair

"one wonders why Dassault has refused permission for mounting the Brahmos on the Rafale "

Maybe because the BrahMos is too long to be carried by the Rafale ?

France has been extremely patient with the MMRCA deal. It's time for India to drop their whims and finally sign the god damn contract. It's not the first time they are doing so anyway - Airbus is also suffering of India's unreasonable behavior (MRTT contract).



nik22 said:


> Wow, Rafale had maiden flight in 1986. That is nearly 30 years.
> 
> 
> May be off topic. Our tejas seem to be doing not too bad. Tejas is like a 14 year old compare to 21 year Eurofighter, 30 Rafale.



The Rafale A was a pure demonstrator and had nothing to do with the following Rafale B/C/M, apart general shape.
If you take the Rafale A for the Rafale's first flight, then take the EAP first flight as the Eurofighter's.


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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> Nice reply and some interesting points that he raises on basic operational differences of Rafale compared to MKI.



That piece from Bharat Karnad was as awful as they come. However I still remain unconvinced when it is sought to be suggested that only Rafale will do the role. If, for whatever reason Rafale _(&EF) _are not possible _(including economic)_, there will have to be an alternative. Some of the strongest comments by Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur_(retd.) _are about that particular observation _(about Plan B)_ which was pretty much the only thing that made sense in that article_ (not his harsh observation about sacking etc, just the general direction). _Rafale deal has moved on from the professionals of the IAF to the mandarins at MoD & MoF_. _If a deal is salvageable, good. If not, move on. There is no need to get all hung up about any particular aircraft -this one or any other.

Too many articles on this deal these days, not enough sense & certainly not enough light.

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## NKVD

*NEW DELHI* — India will fast-track the finalization of the US $12 billion plan to purchase 126 Dassault Rafale jets, according to a senior Indian Defense Ministry official, almost three years after India made Dassault its preferred bidder.

The news follows Monday evening talks between Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian.

The Indian MoD official refused to give details on how the two sides will resolve differences holding back the finalization of the negotiations in the run up to the inking of the contract. He did say that the two defense ministers agreed that all issues that are irritants will be sorted out by the end of this year so the deal can be finalized by the end of the financial year ending March 31.

The crucial issue that needs to be solved is the insistence by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to give guarantee on the delivery schedule of the Rafales that will be license-produced at HAL. Another issue relates to bringing down the cost of Indian-made Rafales.

A second MoD official said the sides are discussing what currency will be used to purchase the 18 aircraft built by Dassault in France, and how HAL could be protected against currency fluctuations. The details are not known, but the two defense ministers agreed to accommodate each other to bring down the cost of the Indian-made aircraft.

The 2008 request for proposal for the jets stipulates that 18 aircraft will be bought in fly-by-wire condition and the remaining 108 will be built by HAL on a license-production basis.

Contract negotiations between India’s MoD, HAL and Dassault of France have been underway since 2012, after the Rafale was selected as the preferred aircraft over the Eurofighter Typhoon. However, dozens of meetings between the Indian and French sides have failed to close the deal because the French have refused to give guarantees on the delivery schedule of the aicraft that will be produced in India

India, France Agree to Finalize Rafale Deal by Spring | Defense News | defensenews.com


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## PARIKRAMA

@NKVD 

*India, France Agree to Finalize Rafale Deal by Spring*
*Dec. 1, 2014 - 03:45AM*

The report is old. Its mistakenly published in IDN.

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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> Rafale deal has moved on from the professionals of the IAF to the mandarins at MoD & MoF_. _If a deal is salvageable, good. If not, move on. There is no need to get all hung up about any particular aircraft -this one or any other.



But it's not about just a fighter and that's what makes this tender so important. The industrial benefits are equally important for India and no other alternative than MMRCA can offer that. If we don't select 1 of the 2 fighters, we still will be able to fill the gaps in the fleet otherwise, especially the hyped squad numbers, but it makes all the years that we tried to get as much industrial benefits as possible, simply wasted and India can't afford that.



Bang Galore said:


> Too many articles on this deal these days, not enough sense & certainly not enough light.



True, but there is FINALLY some movement visible on the French side now, I just hope that it's genuine and not just a fake proposal with the devil in the details.

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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> But it's not about just a fighter and that's what makes this tender so important. The industrial benefits are equally important for India and no other alternative than MMRCA can offer that. If we don't select 1 of the 2 fighters, we still will be able to fill the gaps in the fleet otherwise, especially the hyped squad numbers, but it makes all the years that we tried to get as much industrial benefits as possible, simply wasted and India can't afford that.



That may be a valid argument but that is not the argument for the IAF to make, it's the government which has to decide whether the costs justify the potential industrial benefits. There is no such thing as benefits at any cost.


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## The Great One

PARIKRAMA said:


> the flight range of the Rafale is almost three times that of the Su-30



Surely a mistake

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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> That may be a valid argument but that is not the argument for the IAF to make, it's the government which has to decide whether the costs justify the potential industrial benefits. There is no such thing as benefits at any cost.



Of course it's not the arguement for IAF, but the decision is not up to the IAF either, but of the government. And it's not about benefits at any costs, but about the best package of benefits and costs and that's exactly where the Rafale is the better choice today. With $7 to 10 billions that needs to be re-invested into the Indian industry and the best critical ToT packages, there is no doubt about that we have selected the 2 offers with the most industrial benefits in mind, we just need to select one.


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## proud_indian

sancho said:


> Of course it's not the arguement for IAF, but the decision is not up to the IAF either, but of the government. And it's not about benefits at any costs, but about the best package of benefits and costs and that's exactly where the Rafale is the better choice today. With $7 to 10 billions that needs to be re-invested into the Indian industry and the best critical ToT packages, there is no doubt about that we have selected the 2 offers with the most industrial benefits in mind, we just need to select one.



how do you think this TOT will help our industry? Can we implement the manufacturing process we learn while making them here at HAL in to our own projects like tejas? 
For ex I read in some article that we manually create Carbon Fiber Composites parts for tejas, while french don't. So can we learn that and implement that into tejas project in furure?

what are the critical technologies we wish to acquire in this deal? I don't think they will share engine tech?

In some point of time in future will we able to manufacture the whole aircraft from raw material?


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## migflug

Foreign Secretary S. Jaishankar leaves on a three-day visit to France and Germany later this month in a last-minute bid to seek closure to $23-billionDassault Rafale fighter deal and an early works agreement with Areva on the Jaitapur nuclear power project in return for critical “Make in India” defence technologies and a joint venture for making large forgings for civilian nuclear reactors.

Jaishankar, who will visit both countries between March 25 and 27, will get the groundwork done for Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s trip to Paris (April 10-11) and Hannover (April 12-13).

While India is looking towards skill development and deepening of economic ties with Germany, the bilateral relationship with Paris is centred on space, defence and strategic ties.

Although it is still early days with agreements work in progress, the finalisation of the deal for 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) and freezing of technical parameters for the first two 1650 MW nuclear reactors with manufacturer Areva is a distinct possibility as both countries are eager to push their strategic relationship forward.

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## PARIKRAMA

The Week - Coverage on IAF - 3 articles - SCARE IN THE AIR
*
The Week - Coverage on IAF - 3 articles - SCARE IN THE AIR*






*





First
COVER STORY
ON A WING AND A SPARE*
By Ajit K. Dubey
Story Dated: Monday, March 16, 2015 14:27 hrs IST










Marshal Arup Raha burst a cluster bomb at the last combined commanders conference on October 17, which was Prime Minister Narendra Modi's first. If the government wanted his force to guard the frontiers with Pakistan and China well, he would need at least 45 squadrons of fighter jets; he had hardly 34!

Raha, soft-spoken and not known for theatrics, stunned the prime minister and the entire security establishment. This was probably the first time that an Air Force chief had told the government, after Shashindra Pal Tyagi wrote to the government eight years ago and leaked his letter, that his force was in such a bad state that he would not be able to do his duty.

With the decision on the long-demanded 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft getting delayed, there is no hope of augmenting the fleet in the near future. Though there is an overall increase of about Rs25,000 crore in the defence budget, there is a drastic cut in the money allotted for aircraft purchase. The allocation to the IAF for buying aircraft and aero-engines has been slashed from Rs21,461.39 crore to Rs18,866.01 crore.

Money can be allocated only after a purchase decision has been approved, and, as of now, there is none on the IAF's plate. “The explanation for the delays in procurement should not be asked of the man in uniform,” said retired air chief marshal P.V. Naik. “The bureaucracy is responsible for procuring equipment for the services.”

With its squadron strength depleting fast, the IAF has no go but to progressively scale down the magnitude of its mandated tasks. There was a time in the early 2000s when the force, flush with the victory in the Kargil war and with the prospect of several squadrons of lethal Sukhoi-30MKIs flying in, talked of being equipped for a two-front war with China and Pakistan. A realistic assessment since then has made the marshals realise that such a doctrine would require at least 60 squadrons of ultra-modern war jets. That is about 1,200 fighter planes.

Ambitions have since been scaled down, for several reasons. As the flush of the Kargil win receded, the defence ministry was back to the same old lethargy in procurement. Purchase decisions got entangled in bureaucratic red-tape and ministerial caution against allegations of corruption. “The IAF is still awaiting the induction of the medium multi-role aircraft,” said Naik.

Then came the economic downturn, dashing any hope of a big jump in the budget for the services' capital purchases. Moreover, the Chinese began upping their air power and ground facilities in Tibet at such a fast pace that there was no way the IAF could match war jet for war jet. In just about a decade, China added more than 300 brand-new Russian Sukhoi-30MKKs and Sukhoi-27s, and homemade J-10 and J-17s.

As the 'ground' reality struck the Indian air staff, their operational doctrines became less ambitious. “The current operational directive from the office of the defence minister, issued in 2009, asks the armed forces to be war-ready on the Pakistan border, and prepare for holding operations along the China border,” a ministry official told THE WEEK. Simply put, it means adopt an offensive posture on the Pakistan front, and a defensive one against the Chinese.

But even such a modest war doctrine is now looking too ambitious. As Raha told the combined commanders' conference, he would need 45 squadrons to hold back the Chinese while waging a reasonably credible offensive against Pakistan; and he had just 34. “The situation is precarious,” pointed out retired air marshal A.K. Singh, former chief of the Delhi-based western air command that takes care of the entire theatre of operations against Pakistan. “If tomorrow we have to face the eventuality of both Pakistan and China putting pressure on us on the borders, we would be in a grave situation.”

The picture, thus, is one of progressively shrinking the operational ambitions with the dwindling size of the force. Recently, the IAF brass told Parliament's standing committee on defence headed by retired major-general B.C. Khanduri: “Our capability has already come down. Our capability vis-à-vis our neighbours is fast eroding.” The committee, in turn, ticked off the government for its “lack of futuristic planing”. The IAF's squadron strength “is just 34 against a sanctioned number of 42,” it pointed out. “We regret that a huge difference in sanctioned and existing number of squadrons was allowed at all. This could have been checked since the aircraft have a definite life span, and decommissioning can be well calculated.”

Alarmingly, in one of its reports, the committee put the actual operational squadron strength at a paltry 25, after discounting aircraft undergoing repair and refit at any given time. The estimate is that 35 to 40 per cent of the aircraft in a squadron can be expected to be in the maintenance or refit or upgrade hangar at any given time. This is so even with the brand-new Sukhois—nearly half of which are always in 'maintenance' hangars. Recently, the entire Sukhoi fleet was grounded for three weeks for inspection after the pilot and navigator seats ejected automatically while the aircraft was about to land in Pune.

Part of the blame, indeed, is on human error. Or that is what the makers of the plane would swear, as in the case of the Pune crash. The Russians say that two pilots had a cockpit quarrel in which the senior called the junior “good for nothing” and the latter, a rookie, lost his nerve. Minutes later, the two were thrown off with their seats! The IAF is still tight-lipped about what actually happened. Such 'criminal errors', however, are rare. Most human errors are those of judgment which can happen while flying at twice the speed of sound.

A more crippling problem is shortage of spares. Forget the old MiG-21s and MiG-27s which are no longer made anywhere in the world, even the Sukhois often face spares crunch. So much so that three or four Su-30MKIs have been turned into 'Christmas Trees' from which the engineers pluck spares. “These [new] aircraft are being cannibalised to meet the requirement of spares for the other aircraft in the Su-30 squadrons,” said an official at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which builds the aircraft under Russian licence. “But I won't blame the IAF. They are facing problems in getting spares from Russia.”

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, though new to his job, is aware of the shortage of aircraft. He recently asked the IAF and HAL to improve the availability of fighter jets. “If we improve the availability, the current squadrons are reasonably adequate,” he told THE WEEK. “It doesn't mean that we should not increase it. We have to have 42 squadrons, but equally important is that we should improve the availability of the present 35 squadrons.”

Parrikar claims that the IAF has improved aircraft availability by 10 per cent in the past six months. “If you improve the availability, 75 per cent of your problem is solved,” he said. “Sukhoi availability is also improving. Low availability is due to servicing issues and spares.” Agreed former HAL chairman R.K. Tyagi: “The availability of aircraft in the squadrons was 50 per cent earlier. But, with steps like creation of spares bank for the aircraft, we have brought it up to 60 per cent in the last few months.”

At present, in operational squadron strength, the IAF suffers a humiliating parity with the Pakistan Air Force, which, too, has 25 squadrons. And there is no comparison with China, which has an air force four times larger than the IAF. Indeed, PLAAF has several more frontiers to take care of, with 'enemies' Japan, Vietnam, South Korea and Taiwan all around it. So no one expects China to deploy its entire airpower against India. All the same, considering that China views India as its primary and most powerful adversary, IAF doctrine-makers expect it to press a large part of its squadron strength into operations against India.

Most of the Chinese squadrons consist of modern Su-30MKKs, Su-27s, J-10s and J-16s which have been replacing their obsolete Chengdu J-7s. The Chinese have recently modernised their airfields in Kongka, Hoping, Lhasa and Pangta in Tibet. Sensing trouble, the Indian defence ministry permitted the IAF to move three wings of its deep-strike Sukhoi-30MKIs closer to the Chinese border—the 15 Wing to Bareilly, the 11 Wing to Tezpur and, more recently, the 14 Wing to Chabua.

Even the parity claimed with Pakistan pales when one considers the capabilities of the aircraft in the inventory. Most of Pakistan's 25 squadrons are getting modernised with the planned induction of around 45 F-16s from the US and more than 100 Chinese J-10s. “We still have an edge over the Pakistan Air Force but let me tell you, it is eroding very fast,” warned Naik, who used to claim, during his tenure as air chief five years ago, that the IAF was not a _chunnu munnu_ (rag tag) force. “They are modernising fast, but not much has happened on our side.”

The bulk of India's 25 to 34 squadrons are of ageing MiG-21s, flying and fighting with the technologies of the 1970s vintage. “Fourteen of these 34 fighter squadrons are of MiG 21 and MiG 27s,” said an air marshal. “We ought to have pensioned them out long ago, and we will have to do that in the next five years.” Naik said, “At regular intervals, you need to add new aircraft to replace your 30-35 year-old MiG-21s. That has not happened in the last decade.”

The MiGs did have their day. When inducted, the MiG-21s were the only supersonic planes in south Asia. They played stellar roles in the 1971 war and have been guarding the Indian skies for close to half a century. However, the aircraft has become obsolete, and after the break-up of the Soviet Union spares also ran out. On the other hand, the Pakistan Air Force has been not only flying the more modern F-16s, but also upgrading them regularly.

Parliament's standing committee, too, has expressed its dismay over this. “This widening gap occurs because the rate at which fighter aircraft are retiring after completion of their total technical life exceeds the rate at which their replacements are being inducted into the IAF,” observed its report.

Though flying accidents on MiG-21s have been brought down, the reliability of the old planes continues to worry. “In a recent accident in Gujarat, the bomb on the wing of a MiG-21 exploded, resulting in a crash,” said an engineer in the Nagpur-based maintenance command. “The pilot landed safely but the incident has put question marks on the reliability of the old machines.”

The big questions is, what would replace them? To meet its requirement of 45 squadrons in the next 10-15 years, the IAF wants to have a mix of heavy-, medium- and light-weight aircraft, a few bought and the rest built. In fact, the Sukhoi-30MKIs are coming in numbers, but being heavy-duty, long-range weapons, they cannot be used for giving close air support to the Army. The operational philosophy demands that in case the enemy runs in with its huge tank fleet across the Punjab plains or the Rajasthan desert, the Army would seek help of the Air Force to bomb them out. “The Sukhois can hardly be used for such tactical roles,” pointed out a staff officer in the Air Headquarters.

Equipped with the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, the Sukhoi, with refuelling, can fly for more than 10 hours at a stretch and hit anywhere on the Eurasian continent. But currently, quite a few of them are deployed in Jodhpur and a few other bases in Punjab and Haryana to take care of a few thousand square kilometres of Pakistani territory. That job ideally should have gone to the light and agile Tejas. But the aircraft is yet to get final operational clearance and enter squadron service. 

Faced with a crippling shortage, the IAF is desperately reworking its tactical doctrines. In the recent Live Wire exercise, the force put all its assets to use to check if it could quickly switch its Sukhois from the eastern front to the Pakistani front. Such switching of roles is easier said than done. In such situations, the squadron pilots need to be trained in different tactical doctrines at the same time. “The way you wage a dogfight over the plains is different from the way you wage it over the mountains,” said an officer in the Bengaluru-based training command. “It is too taxing on a pilot to be training every day in such varying kinds of combat.”

Currently, for bulk of the operations on the western frontier, the IAF has the MiG-21s, which it wants to be replaced with the Tejas. The development programme of the Tejas has been running for three decades now. The builder, HAL, is waiting for the final clearance and is ready “to ramp up production capacity to 16 light combat aircraft a year, doubling the initial target of eight per year,” as former HAL chairman Tyagi said recently. Its Mark-2 version is expected to take another five years to enter squadron service.

In between the light and short-range Tejas and the heavy-duty, long-range Sukhois would come the Mirage-2000 (three squadrons), the Jaguar deep strike penetration aircraft (five squadrons) and the Russian MiG-29 (three squadrons). Of these, the Jaguars are of 1970s technology, and the Mirages and the MiG-29s of 1980s. Mid-life upgrades have given these aircraft another two decades of service life, but the IAF would like to have a robust fleet of medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) before these warhorses retire.

After prolonged and protracted scouting and negotiations, the IAF had zeroed in on the French Rafales. But the deal is still stuck in wrangles between the original maker Dassault and the intended licensed Indian manufacturer HAL. “The timely induction of 126 MMRCA in the IAF is of critical importance,” said Air Chief Marshal Raha in a recent interview.

In fact, a lot of futuristic planning is being done. The IAF has started talking about a fifth-generation (most of the world's most advanced aircraft in service today are fourth-gen) advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA). “The fifth-gen fighter is still on the drawing boards, and it should come out in 8-20 years,” said an IAF officer. “We are looking at a Russian design aircraft, to be jointly developed with DRDO [Defence Research and Development Organisation], which would be our answer to the American F-35 Lightning, F-22 Raptors and Chinese Chengdu J-20s.” These stealth aircraft would give the IAF the capability to enter enemy territory without 'troubling' the enemy radars, missile batteries and air defence guns.

The talks with the Russians over this are stuck on pricing and work share for India. The original idea was to get the aircraft developed jointly with Russia, which would cost $11 billion and take about nine years after the deal is signed. A quicker option, but less preferred because of the reduced Indian role, is to opt for the already existing Russian design, go for outright purchase of a few and subsequent licensed production in India. “If this option is exercised today, we will get the first aircraft by 2019-20,” said an officer.

The Khanduri committee had expressed concern over this. “We are constrained to observe that country's security requirements are being compromised by ignoring consistently widening gap between sanctioned and existing strengths,” observed its report. “We desire that concrete and prompt steps be initiated expeditiously to induct sufficient number of functional platform.”

But that is not happening. With no new procurement decisions taken, the IAF's plane purchase budget has been cut by Rs2,595 crore. “It would be difficult for the government to allocate more funds for new acquisitions for the IAF,” said defence industry analyst Deba R. Mohanty. “And it is not just fighter aircraft that have to be procured by the force; it also has to buy Apache and Chinook helicopters, additional mid-air refuelling aircraft, AWACS, aerostat radars and many more important things.”

Those, the marshals say, are another story.
*
Fighters for the future*

*Su-30MKI:* The Russian multi-role heavy aircraft is the biggest in the fighter jet category in the IAF. With plans to procure 272 Su-30MKIs (13 squadrons), the aircraft would be the mainstay of the force for 30 years.


*Fifth generation fighter aircraft:* To be procured from Russia, the fifth generation fighter aircraft would be India's answer to the American F-35 Lightning II and F-22 Raptor. The IAF is planning to buy 144 aircraft (seven squadrons) and induct them by 2019-20.


*Medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA):* For the past three years, negotiations have been going on with the French firm, Dassault Aviation, to procure aircraft for $20 billion ('mother of all deals'). If the deal comes through, the IAF would induct 126 MMRCA (six squadrons) by 2019-20.


*Light combat aircraft Tejas:* The home-grown aircraft is among the fighter jets that took the longest in the making and saw several cost and time over-runs. The LCA is in the final stages of development and 140 (seven squadrons) of them are expected to be inducted in the next two to three years.


*Advanced medium combat aircraft:* The AMCA is still on the drawing board and the Defence Research and Development Organisation plans to get sanction for it in the next few years. The AMCA may take 20 years to be developed fully and will replace Mirage 2000, Jaguar deep penetration strike aircraft and MiG-29s. And, for that, 200 AMCA (ten squadrons) would be required.


The Week | ON A WING AND A SPARE

*Second Story
Up in the air 


By Ajit K. Dubey
Story Dated: Saturday, March 14, 2015 14:44 hrs IST 

Rafale deal in limbo as India and France fail to reach a consensus on the terms
*
When the French Rafale bagged the multi-billion dollar deal for 126 fighter jets in 2012, it cost an American ambassador his job and fouled up India's diplomatic ties with the US, the UK and several other friendly countries. All the same, air marshals in India opened champagne bottles, cheering a lethal multi-role plane that they expected to be theirs in three years. The idea was to get 18 planes from France and the remaining 108 were to be built by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in India under licence.

Three years later, the marshals don't have a single multi-role jet, except the ageing MiG-21s that have been in service since 1961. Even the Rafale deal is yet to be signed with the original equipment manufacturer, Dassault Aviation.

The French have been trying desperately to get the deal through. Their defence minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, visited India thrice last year and their foreign minister, Laurent Fabius, twice.

The deal apparently is held up because India wants Dassault Aviation to guarantee the timely delivery of 108 aircraft to be built by HAL. The French have said that they cannot guarantee work by an Indian entity.

The stalemate has resulted in a blame game. During his last visit, Drian alleged that the Indian defence ministry's demand was unjustified, since the original tender document had not specified that the original equipment manufacturer would have to guarantee delivery by the Indian licence-holder. “The French said that we were deviating from the request for proposal,” an IAF officer told THE WEEK. “Both sides need to stick to the request for proposal was their argument.”

The defence ministry's acquisition wing, however, said there were clauses in the request for proposal which indicated that the foreign vendor would be responsible for the aircraft to be built in India. Dassault had submitted a project report in which it had raised doubts about certain obsolete manufacturing practices in HAL and sought upgrades in divisions which would be involved in the building of Rafale.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has instructed his officers to conclude the negotiations by April. Prime Minister Narendra Modi is going to visit France in April and there is hope that a favourable decision would be taken before that.

Ministry sources said the two parties were yet to discuss the most crucial aspect of the deal—the actual cost. France recently sold 24 Rafales to Egypt for 5.9 billion euros, which works out to 01,600 crore per aircraft. If India gets 126 aircraft at the same cost (which is unlikely considering the changing currency value), the deal would be worth more than Rs2 lakh crore, which is four times the amount sanctioned by the Manmohan Singh government in 2005. {price of FREMM is not considered and hence the cost is incorrect}

“We are aware that the negotiations with Dassault haven't gone very smoothly,” said British foreign secretary Philip Hammond when THE WEEK asked him if the British were still offering Eurofighter. “But [as of now] there is a preferred bidder. If we think we have an opportunity, we will be there with a competitive offer.”

The marshals, however, are thrilled. From what they reckon, the Rafale would be the most potent winged weapon in their inventory that can carry 10 tonnes of arms, which is more than what the Sukhoi-30MKI can carry.


The Week | Up in the air

*
Third Story
GUEST COLUMN
Get those Rafales, quick 


By Air Chief Marshal (retd) S. Krishnaswamy
Story Dated: Saturday, March 14, 2015 14:47 hrs IST *

Defence takes up a sizeable package of public expenditure that rightfully draws a strong debate on its modernisation. Big-ticket items do raise interesting views in the debate. The acquisition of a Russian aircraft carrier for the Navy caused quite a stir after the unprecedented price escalation cost the country a bomb. Next on the list is the proposed acquisition of Rafale fighter jets, which would be the most expensive purchase to date.

Cost is not the only concern; there appears to be a discomfort in taking decisions, which has led to extraordinary delays. India may well be creating a poor impression of its decision-making process. Fortunately, the country has a sharp-minded IIT graduate as defence minister, who is known for taking clear decisions, and we hope that the dust would settle down quickly.

Rafale is certainly a much-needed addition to the Indian Air Force. During the Kargil conflict, only Mirage 2000 had the capability to deliver a precision-guided bomb accurately on Tiger Hill, putting to rest the criticisms over its acquisition. We have ensured that its special features are embodied on the light combat aircraft and Su-30MKI.

Rafale would have better and wider capabilities in all weather. While speed and manoeuvrability are important traits of a combat aircraft, the demand in modern times is for flexibility of role while in air.

The 'swing role' fighter could carry a variety of weapons and sensors and be able to engage targets in air, on ground or at sea on a single mission. Rafale can perform 'swing role' functions though it may predominantly remain a multi-role combat aircraft (like Su-30MKI) that is configured on ground for specific missions prior to take-off. It promises more effective delivery, improved availability and longer technical life than any other machine in the current inventory. There is excellent scope to improve the Su-30MKI, which was designed 20 years ago, indigenously since it is being produced at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

The Air Force, for long, has been working on regaining its squadron strength. It may not be such an urgent need but would possibly be a projection for the future. The Air Force may be short on squadrons but in terms of firepower, it has four times the strength it had two decades ago when it had around 40 squadrons.

*EACH Su-30MKI* (more than 250 of them) has at least four times the potential of an old MiG-21 FL. What is important is 'operational availability'. Effective management follows good planning to ensure maximum availability and a systematic repair/ overhaul line.

It would not be a good idea to get new machines if the old ones are awaiting repair in the hangar. However, numbers are important to mount effective operations. Experienced air forces plan for 'high-low mix'. For India, a combination of LCA and Su-30MKI/ Rafale would make the low-high mix. Proportionately, low would be in larger number (low does not mean lack of sophistication but a lower level of ordnance carriage and range, and a limited role).

For a 'swing role' fighter to be effective, an advanced communication network, excellent real-time intelligence and a well-delegated and effective decision-making body are required. With the induction of multi-role combat aircraft, we expect to procure more advanced missiles, weapons and sensors.

*Buying new planes, guns and ships alone would not make our military potent.*

Innovative ways have to be found to reduce the cost of operations and of inventory management. Innovative ways have to be found to also improve manpower quality, and reduce surplus manpower. The tooth-to-tail ratio in the Indian military is one of the lowest among modern military forces.

While we criticise public sector undertakings, the time is right for the military to transfer its industrial functions to the private sector. Military service has gradually become a government job. While permanent commission is treated like permanence 'till death do us apart', those who join in short service commission are going to court to become permanent!

The Air Force must permit its personnel to retire after putting a minimum number of years of service. There should no longer be a difference between permanent and short service.

There is a lot on the plate for the government and the military to resolve. Modernisation is an all-encompassing exercise and is not limited only to inducting billion-dollar equipment.



The Week | Get those Rafales, quick

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## DrSomnath999

The Great One said:


> the flight range of the Rafale is almost three times that of the Su-30
> 
> Surely a mistake


*the flight range of the Rafale is almost three times that of the Su-30*

range of Su30 is around 3000km without EFTs
if you add EFTs the range might even increase further but usually we havenot seen them in action with EFTs

but rafale range with 3 EFTS are cited 3700km +
rafale's exact range is classified but having 3 x 2000 l fuel tanks on your plane thats quite a lot of fuel
if you add Conformal fuel tanks to it the range would increase even further

*so range of rafale with 3 x 2000L EFTS & with 2 CFTS theoritaclly can be almost 3 times of the su 30 without EFTS *

SOURCE





*CHEERS*

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## Fahad Khan 2

BC kab ho gi ya deal????

Jab Modi apni Biwi k pas wapis Gharwapsi karay ga.....

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## Corsair

Su-30MKI, as well as the great majority of Sukhoi 27/30/34/35 aircraft, are only using fuel tanks for ferry purposes.

On the other hand, Rafale's combat payloads always include two to three RPL 751, 2000 L fuel tanks, which are not reducing its ammunition payload capability (a typical deep strike configuration would be 6 MICA (or 4 MICA + 2 METEOR), 2 SCALP-EG and 3 RPL 751 (or 3 SCALP + 2 RPL 751), giving it a unmatched range for such a payload.

The Rafale can also carry RPL 701, 1250 L tanks, which allow supersonic speeds, mainly for air superiority missions.


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## nik22

Fahad Khan 2 said:


> BC kab ho gi ya deal????
> 
> Jab Modi apni Biwi k pas wapis Gharwapsi karay ga.....


BC , modi and wife ka kya relation hai iss se? BC, qutiyapa mat kar

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## Hindustani78

Wednesday, March 4th, the French President visited the Mérignac Dassault Aviation site where he was welcomed by Eric Trappier, Serge Dassault, Charles Edelstenne and Olivier Dassault.

Accompanied by Jean-Yves Le Drian, French Defence Minister, François Hollande was notably shown the Rafale production line as well as the latest technological innovations in terms of support.

The head of state, also Chief of the French Armed Forces, gave a speech to the staff, local dignitaries, military authorities and the press.

François Hollande then met with engineers, foremen and workers.

Speaking just a few days after signing the first Rafale export contract, this unprecedented event for the company represents an exceptional new moment in the history of Dassault Aviation.


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## halloweene

Good "off" news


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## wiseone2

why has Rafale deal increased from 10 bil to 20 bil ?
Have the size of the kickbacks rocketed ? Or the french being greedy ?


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## GURU DUTT

Fahad Khan 2 said:


> BC kab ho gi ya deal????
> 
> Jab Modi apni Biwi k pas wapis Gharwapsi karay ga.....


nahi jab pakistan ek khid mukhtar mulk banjayega 



wiseone2 said:


> why has Rafale deal increased from 10 bil to 20 bil ?
> Have the size of the kickbacks rocketed ? Or the french being greedy ?


10 bilion was rate in 2004 now its 2015 now do the maths


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## Hindustani78

No final decision yet on Rafale aircraft deal: Govt | Zee News
Last Updated: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 - 15:34

New Delhi: Negotiation is taking place for procurement of medium multi-role combat aircraft from Dassault Aviation France but "no final decision" has been taken, the government informed the Rajya Sabha on Tuesday.


Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar also said review of existing fleet and induction of new aircraft is a continuous process and such a review is carried out keeping in view the operational requirements of the Air Force.

On whether fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) are in place for the Indian Air Force to have superior air strike capabilities, he replied in a negative.

French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian had last month held talks here with Parrikar to salvage the multi-billion Rafale contract even as a deadlock continues to hold up the deal.

As the two ministers met, the Cost Negotiating Committee (CNC) is understood to have submitted its report to the Ministry of Defence.

Le Drian met with Parrikar during which the French Minister took up the issue of the Rafale fighters manufactured by Dassault Aviation.

India had selected Rafale for the deal in 2012 but the final contract is yet to be signed. While 18 jets are to be bought off the shelf, 108 are supposed to be manufactured here by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

The main issue concerns the pricing, which is basically the production cost in India, and Dassault's reluctance to stand guarantee for the 108 fighters to be built by state-run HAL.

PTI

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## The Great One

DrSomnath999 said:


> range of Su30 is around 3000km without EFTs
> if you add EFTs the range might even increase further but usually we havenot seen them in action with EFTs


I don't think it has any wet points.


DrSomnath999 said:


> but rafale range with 3 EFTS are cited 3700km +
> rafale's exact range is classified but having 3 x 2000 l fuel tanks on your plane thats quite a lot of fuel
> if you add Conformal fuel tanks to it the range would increase even further
> 
> *so range of rafale with 3 x 2000L EFTS & with 2 CFTS theoritaclly can be almost 3 times of the su 30 without EFTS *


That's incredibly wrong.
The two CFT's are only 1150 litre (each), no bloody way can it make it anywhere near 9000 KM when with 5750 litres of internal and 6000 litres of External, it can only go 3700KM. 
Without accounting for the increased weight and drag by the 2 CFT's and 2 x 1250 litre supersonic tank (because I really don't know how to do it) in addition to the above, we get a max range of 5211 kilometer. It will be even lower in reality of course

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## DrSomnath999

The Great One said:


> I don't think it has any wet points.



all jets have wet points but Su30mki is a large plane with larger internal fuel



The Great One said:


> That's incredibly wrong.
> The two CFT's are only 1150 litre (each), no bloody way can it make *it anywhere near 9000 KM* when with 5750 litres of internal and 6000 litres of External,* it can only go 3700KM.*
> Without accounting for the increased weight and drag by the 2 CFT's and *2 x 1250 litre supersonic tank *(because I really don't know how to do it) in addition to the above, we get a max range of 5211 kilometer. It will be even lower in reality of course



the claim was *almost thrice* if not exactly near 9000km 

*the exact value would be around 7000km+ more than twice should have been accurate*

yes almost thrice claims looks bit deceiving & exaggerated


& few points you have missed
check the wiki sources it says* 3700km +* not 3700km with 3 EFTS

& those are *3x 2000l EFTS* not 2x1250 L according to you

plus CFT can increase the range by about 25% from 5500km range of rafale with 3 EFTS of 2000l
it would give a range of around 7000km & even higher but not greater than 7500km for sure

*CHEERS*

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## PARIKRAMA

@halloweene 

Whats the good "off" news you are talking about?


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## halloweene

The Great One said:


> I don't think it has any wet points.
> 
> That's incredibly wrong.
> The two CFT's are only 1150 litre (each), no bloody way can it make it anywhere near 9000 KM when with 5750 litres of internal and 6000 litres of External, it can only go 3700KM.
> Without accounting for the increased weight and drag by the 2 CFT's and 2 x 1250 litre supersonic tank (because I really don't know how to do it) in addition to the above, we get a max range of 5211 kilometer. It will be even lower in reality of course


you can find data on combat radius on the brazilian site defesanet. And there are two types of tanks : one subsonic (although they have been pushed to Mach 1.2) of 2000L and one supersonic of 1250L.


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## drunken-monke

*Terms Non-Negotiable On MMRCA Rafale Deal; Indian MoD*
Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Wednesday, March 18, 2015 @ 09:03 AM
Indian Defense Minister, Manohar Parrikar on Tuesday made it clear to the French Government that there would be no compromise on the costs and Request For Proposal (RFP) of the purchase of Dassault Rafale Multi Medium Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).

“We have conveyed our stand to them very clearly. No terms are negotiable and they (French Government) have to make up their mind as to whether they can do it or not. We can’t keep on waiting,” Parrikar said. “The Ministry will think of strengthening the existing fleet of Su-30Mki in case the deadlock continues.”

Parrikar had earlier last week said, “Rafale deal is not through or final. If it is at all finalized in future, it will take time. I would not like to comment on it as it is still in the negotiation stage,” he said during the lower house session.”

"I am waiting the Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) report and until the detailed report is submitted, I will be unable to comment on the MMRCA aircraft acquisition. I have asked the CNC to expedite the report. The report is expected in March if not February. It is essential for the ministry to make a final decision about the deal,” Parrikar had said during the Aero India Airshow last month.

The cost of the program was $12 billion when the initial tender was floated in 2007. The price shot up to $18 billion when Dassault won the contract as the lowest bidder in January 2012.

The transfer of technology, life cycle costs and creating assembly line might finally cross $20 billion.

The government may find it difficult to justify a nearly 80% price hike for the Rafale jets to the Indian parliament. In the past, the accounting watchdog, the Comptroller and auditor general (CAG) has criticized the government for its fiscal conduct while concluding defense deals.

Terms Non-Negotiable On MMRCA Rafale Deal; Indian MoD

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## The Great One

DrSomnath999 said:


> all jets have wet points but Su30mki is a large plane with larger internal fuel
> 
> 
> 
> the claim was *almost thrice* if not exactly near 9000km
> 
> *the exact value would be around 7000km+ more than twice should have been accurate*
> 
> yes almost thrice claims looks bit deceiving & exaggerated
> 
> 
> & few points you have missed
> check the wiki sources it says* 3700km +* not 3700km with 3 EFTS
> 
> & those are *3x 2000l EFTS* not 2x1250 L according to you
> 
> plus CFT can increase the range by about 25% from 5500km range of rafale with 3 EFTS of 2000l
> it would give a range of around 7000km & even higher but not greater than 7500km for sure
> 
> *CHEERS*


This is so annoying. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> & few points you have missed


I didn't miss nothing, you're the one who jumped the gun.


DrSomnath999 said:


> check the wiki sources it says* 3700km +* not 3700km with 3 EFTS


So? That allows you to assume it 5500km? What nonsense. Bring official sources that put it so and then talk.


DrSomnath999 said:


> & those are *3x 2000l EFTS* not 2x1250 L according to you


According to me its CFT (2x1150L) + 2x1250L + 3x2000L (+ 5750L internal). If only you actually bothered to read what you quote
'2 CFT's and 2 x 1250 litre supersonic tank (because I really don't know how to do it) *in addition to the above*


DrSomnath999 said:


> plus CFT can increase the range by about 25% from 5500km range of rafale with 3 EFTS of 2000l
> it would give a range of around 7000km & even higher but not greater than 7500km for sure


Stop smoking whatever you weed you got there. CFT only add a minor 2300L fuel. That is about 16% increase in fuel with the concurrent increase in weight and drag.. 

Now, children FOCUS
With 5750L internal and 6000L external, we derive 3700Km, i.e 0.31489361702127659574468085106383L per kilometer. Adding 2x1250L and 2x1150L, we get a total of 16550L multiplied by this ^^ equal to 5211 kilometers
This is not really correct as the plane likely uses afterburners on takeoff from some runways (considering its a very low-bypass turbofan{coz M-88 are super-cruise capable}) and uptil it reaches cruise speed. This will positively affect Km/L, however its more than offset by not including drag and weight (and weight induced drag) penalties of the extra tanks. Hence actual range is even lower.


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## I M Sikander

drunken-monke said:


> Parrikar said. “The Ministry will think of strengthening the existing fleet of Su-30Mki in case the deadlock continues.”
> 
> “Rafale deal is not through or final.
> 
> If it is at all finalized in future, it will take time.
> 
> The cost of the program was $12 billion shot up to $18 billion in January 2012 and will finally cross $20 billion.
> 
> Terms Non-Negotiable On MMRCA Rafale Deal; Indian MoD



So thats all folks. No need to say any thing else


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## I M Sikander

Russians will be loving this. It means despite losing the mrca contract . it will be actually the russians who will be getting more orders for MKIs as a stop gap arrangement for mrca planes. 
Well done iaf strategists


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## PARIKRAMA

*Livefist* @livefist · 46m46 minutes ago
Indian & French aircraft carriers (Vikramaditya & Charles de Gaulle) to lead joint naval exercise Varuna from April 23 in the Arabian Sea.



*Livefist* @livefist · 57m57 minutes ago
Ball firmly in Dassault's court. Indian Def Min tells Parliament: "They have to tell us whether they can do it or not. Can’t keep waiting."

March 18, 2015 13:25 PM
*Malaysia Offered Similar Financial Package As Egypt For Rafale Procurement*


LANGKAWI, March 18 (Bernama)-- *French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault Aviation, says Malaysia is being offered a financial package similar to that given to Egypt, for procurement of its Rafale jet fighter.

Dassault Chief Executive Officer Eric Tappier said the package entails a ten-year repayment loan from a French commercial bank and guaranteed by the government of France.*

Cairo recently acquired 24 Rafale combat aircraft and a multi-mission frigate and associated equipment from Dassault Aviation worth 5.3 billion euros.

"We are committed and looking forward to having a long term business deal here in Malaysia as we have the best fighter aircraft which can cover multirole missions," he said during a breakfast session with the media here Wednesday.

He said Dassault had already tied-up with a few local companies, namely, Zetro Aerospace, CTRM and Airod as part of a long-term plan to expand its business in the aerospace industry in Malaysia.

He said the company is also eyeing other local companies that have potential for collaboration, with the transfer of know-how and technology to Malaysia, in some aspects of the process to build aircraft.

*"We are also looking at different types of industrial packages to offer to Malaysia, like the final assembly line of aircraft, production of some parts, development, maintenance and support which we see local industries as having the capability, if they collaborate with us," he added.*

On the Malaysian Aerospace Industry Blueprint 2015-2030 launched yesterday, he said it was apt for fuelling the industry's development.

The blueprint was launched by Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak in conjunction with the ongoing Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace Exhibition (Lima 2015).

Tappier said Dassault sees the present as a good opportunity to collaborate with more Malaysian companies as it is not merely focused on selling aircraft.

The Rafale is making its third appearance at the LIMA since 2011 and is the only company participating in an aerial demonstration this time.

"We believe we can succeed in Malaysia. We have a good aircraft to offer. and as far as I am concerned, good government-to-government relations as well," he added. -- BERNAMA

State News

_
No wonder DM is giving such statements.. Across the world Dassault goes and gives soft loans to rake up sales but about MMRCA its as if not bothered at all.
_
@halloweene : So Malaysian sales also proposed on the same lines of Egypt. its also offering like 
"*the final assembly line of aircraft, production of some parts, development, maintenance and support which we see local industries as having the capability, if they collaborate with us"*
Do you find it ironical that negotiations with India is super slow and with DM posturing its becoming increasingly tougher? Or you think its just for media only? is there any financial package for Indian MMRCA too? Whats Dassault thinking about a concrete announcement when PM Modi visits? Is that possible?

Another article


*DASSAULT AVIATION : A DEADLY WARBIRD NAMED RAFALE*
03/17/2015 | 12:53am US/Eastern

IF the 2013 edition of the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace(Lima) exhibition was anything to go by, this year's flight demonstration by Dassault Aviation's Rafale at Lima 2015 is definitely going to be a showstopper.

Blessed with phenomenal agility and blistering performance, the Rafale has been at the pointy end of the spear. The jet-fighter has racked up impressive sortie rates, often under severe, austere conditions during campaigns in Mali, Libya, and more recently, against Islamic State targets in Iraq.

The Rafale is one of contenders for Royal Malaysian Air Force's (RMAF) multi-role combat aircraft programme. Under the plan, estimated at a whopping RM8 billion, the RMAF is looking to equip three squadrons with 36 to 40 new fighter aircraft. Other competitors include the Eurofighter Typhoon, Boeing's F/A-18/F Super Hornet and the Saab JAS-39 C/D Gripen.

On March 19, 2011, French Rafales conducted reconnaissance and strike missions over Libya in Operation Harmattan. Initial targets were artillery pieces laying siege around Benghazi.

Of particular significance in this deployment was that the Rafales did not need defence suppression aircraft to neutralise enemy air defences.

Instead, it relied solely on its onboard Spectra self-defence jamming system. Warfighters also were pleased with the type's ability to maintain high operational sortie rates.

During the conflict, the fighters typically conducted six-hour sorties. A typical loadout would include four Mica air-to-air missiles, four to six Armement Air-Sol Modulaire (AASM, or Air-to- Ground Modular Weapons), a Thales DamoclEs targeting pod and two auxilliary drop tanks.

The "swing" loadout allowed the Rafale to switch between air-to- air, and air-to-ground missions with just a flick of the switch. Loiter times were augmented by the use of aerial refuelling.

Two years later, the Rafale was back in action. This time, in Mali. InJanuary 2013, Rafales took part in Operation Serval, the French military intervention in support of the government of Mali against the Movement for Oneness and Jihad in West Africa.

On Jan 13, four Rafales took off from an airbase in France to carry out airstrikes on rebel training camps, depots and facilities in the city of Gao in eastern Mali. This was followed by additional airstrikes over the next few days by Rafale and Mirage 2000D strike fighters.

The sudden emergence of the Islamic State (IS) and its sweeping wave of terror finally forced the Americans into action. In September last year, Rafales began flying reconnaissance missions over Iraq as part of Operation Chammal, France's contribution to the international effort to combat the terror group.

Initially, six Rafales were tasked with identifying IS positions in support ofUnited States airstrikes, flying from Al Dhafra Airbase in the United Arab Emirates, photographing potential targets. Later, the number was bumped up to nine jets.

On Sept 18, Rafales joined US Navy F/A-18 E/F Super Hornets on airstrikes. The Rafales launched four strikes near the northern Iraqi town of Zumar that destroyed a logistics depot and killed dozens of IS militants.

(c) 2015

DASSAULT AVIATION : A DEADLY WARBIRD NAMED RAFALE | 4-Traders

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> No wonder DM is giving such statements.. Across the world Dassault goes and gives soft loans to rake up sales but about MMRCA its as if not bothered at all.


India doesn't need, nore has it requested, finacial aid to pay for the MMRCA- apples and oranges.


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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> India doesn't need, nore has it requested, finacial aid to pay for the MMRCA- apples and oranges.



What you are saying is partly true, but does it not show lack of sincerity on the part of Dassault and French government? They are trying hard to rake up sales via that route a possible sale of 3 squadrons mind you and may offer such schemes to more competitions.. in the meantime, the MMRCA progress is almost snail pace. DM talks as if the decision is pending from Dassault side only.. And in the meantime, as time goes on the fleet suffers... Its clear that Su30MKI servicability is at 57% and aimed to reach 70%... To my mind, the deal of MMRCA is even more important now when you know the primary bird is almost one third plus grounded bcz of any reason. On top, the lack of Plan B options is also distressing as new additional sukhois means nothing as it hardly adds to the teeth in present conditions. Its taking too long and time is money............


----------



## DrSomnath999

The Great One said:


> This is so annoying.



there is no need to be so annoyed my friend ,until & unless you have any mental issues on your side

this is after all a forum where people have right to express their views .



The Great One said:


> I didn't miss nothing, you're the one who jumped the gun.


No you have
i have pointed out those things clealry in my prevoius post



The Great One said:


> So? That allows you to assume it 5500km? What nonsense. Bring official sources that put it so and then talk.


who the hell am i to assume anything .. i have posted the source clearly which cites 5500km with internal fuel & 3 large drop tanks tanks .It is from unofficial sources
https://defence.pk/attachments/rafales-range-5000-6000km-jpg.203383/
Official sources cant disclose such things as i have said clearly in my previous post that those things are classified
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 48


But unofficial sources are usually air force officials which dont want to reveal their identity to those journalist in public 
for security reasons



The Great One said:


> According to me its* CFT (2x1150L) + 2x1250L + 3x2000L *(+ 5750L internal). If only you actually bothered to read what you quote
> '2 CFT's and 2 x 1250 litre supersonic tank (because I really don't know how to do it) in addition to the above


 thats the hell wrong assumption from your side 
why would rafale carry 2 x1250L droptanks along with 3x 2000L drop tanks that s not required at all 
it covers up 5 wet stations on rafale which prevents any cruise missile carraige on it's wet station as they are all used up if they carry 5 drop tanks
which is highly illogical 




The Great One said:


> Stop smoking whatever you weed you got there. CFT only add a minor 2300L fuel. *That is about 16% increase.*


1st of all learn to post in a proper civilised way .
I am not your pal next door that you are talking to me like that

this kind of rude & arrogant replies from your side wont achieve anything


CFT add 20-25 % increase in range not 16 % increase according to you
source







*CHEERS*

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## Great Sachin

Good job Mr Defence Minister.......


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## Bang Galore

Abingdonboy said:


> India doesn't need, nore has it requested, finacial aid to pay for the MMRCA- apples and oranges.




Depends, no one is ever going to say no to favourable terms. However the statement from the DM is pretty ominous.

_As India and France struggle to break the deadlock over the $20-billion Rafale fighter deal, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar reiterated on Tuesday that the contractual terms in the Request for Information and the pricing were “non-negotiable.”_

_“The pricing will be decided on the basis of the Request for Proposal,” he told presspersons outside Parliament._

_However, on the guarantee clause, which had been an issue of contention between Dassault and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), he said the two firms had to sort it out._

_These comments are significant in the backdrop of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s upcoming visit to France next month. Foreign Secretary S. Jaishankar is visiting France next week._

_Mr. Parrikar indicated that the wait could not be “endless” and the decision would be “expedited.” The contract negotiation committee is expected to submit its report this month after which a final decision will be taken._


Hardly seems like the DM is looking to compromise. The specific mentioning of the pricing leaves little room to manoeuvre. Either Dassault capitulates or this deal is unlikely to go anywhere.


----------



## wiseone2

Bang Galore said:


> Depends, no one is ever going to say no to favourable terms. However the statement from the DM is pretty ominous.
> 
> _As India and France struggle to break the deadlock over the $20-billion Rafale fighter deal, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar reiterated on Tuesday that the contractual terms in the Request for Information and the pricing were “non-negotiable.”_
> 
> _“The pricing will be decided on the basis of the Request for Proposal,” he told presspersons outside Parliament._
> 
> _However, on the guarantee clause, which had been an issue of contention between Dassault and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), he said the two firms had to sort it out._
> 
> _These comments are significant in the backdrop of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s upcoming visit to France next month. Foreign Secretary S. Jaishankar is visiting France next week._
> 
> _Mr. Parrikar indicated that the wait could not be “endless” and the decision would be “expedited.” The contract negotiation committee is expected to submit its report this month after which a final decision will be taken._
> 
> 
> Hardly seems like the DM is looking to compromise. The specific mentioning of the pricing leaves little room to manoeuvre. Either Dassault capitulates or this deal is unlikely to go anywhere.



Why is $10 billion contract $20 billion ?
Can anyone answer ?


----------



## #hydra#

PARIKRAMA said:


> What you are saying is partly true, but does it not show lack of sincerity on the part of Dassault and French government? They are trying hard to rake up sales via that route a possible sale of 3 squadrons mind you and may offer such schemes to more competitions.. in the meantime, the MMRCA progress is almost snail pace. DM talks as if the decision is pending from Dassault side only.. And in the meantime, as time goes on the fleet suffers... Its clear that Su30MKI servicability is at 57% and aimed to reach 70%... To my mind, the deal of MMRCA is even more important now when you know the primary bird is almost one third plus grounded bcz of any reason. On top, the lack of Plan B options is also distressing as new additional sukhois means nothing as it hardly adds to the teeth in present conditions. Its taking too long and time is money............


For 10bilion we can buy 250+ su 34..and even with 50% of serviceability the number will be more than that of the proposed figure of rafale purchase


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## Storm Force

LIKE I TOLD YOU GUYS 18 MONTHS AGO INDIA CANT AFFORD BOTH RAFALE & FGFA

SOMETHING HAS TO GIVE


----------



## halloweene

PARIKRAMA said:


> @halloweene
> 
> Whats the good "off" news you are talking about?


rumours


----------



## Abingdonboy

wiseone2 said:


> Why is $10 billion contract $20 billion ?
> Can anyone answer ?




$20 BN is a BS figure. The actual figure is around $15-16 BN (50% of which will be ploughed back into India) and the orginal deal had been valued at $12 BN.



#hydra# said:


> For 10bilion we can buy 250+ su 34..and even with 50% of serviceability the number will be more than that of the proposed figure of rafale purchase


The MMRCA is about a LOT more than the planes, it will transform the Indian aviation industry, buying 250 Su-34s won't offer the same benfits to India and will only hurt the IAF.



Storm Force said:


> LIKE I TOLD YOU GUYS 18 MONTHS AGO INDIA CANT AFFORD BOTH RAFALE & FGFA
> 
> SOMETHING HAS TO GIVE


Based on what?? India is going to spend $620 billion on defence between 2014 and 2022 (50% of this will be CAPEX), money is not an issue.


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## nik22

Abingdonboy said:


> Based on what?? India is going to spend $620 billion on defence between 2014 and 2022 (50% of this will be CAPEX), money is not an issue.



$620B?? WOW, that is incredible. 2014 is already gone. Budget of 2015-16 is announced. So, for like 6 years India would be spending avg $100B per year?

Check the figures which Ajai Shukla provided in this image. Total capex for Army, IAF, Navy work out to be $22B (1$ = 62 Rs) in year 2021-22. If Ajai Shukla did some severe stupidity and even If I double the amount, it would be just like $44B.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## halloweene

drunken-monke said:


> *Terms Non-Negotiable On MMRCA Rafale Deal; Indian MoD*
> Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Wednesday, March 18, 2015 @ 09:03 AM
> Indian Defense Minister, Manohar Parrikar on Tuesday made it clear to the French Government that there would be no compromise on the costs and Request For Proposal (RFP) of the purchase of Dassault Rafale Multi Medium Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).
> 
> “We have conveyed our stand to them very clearly. No terms are negotiable and they (French Government) have to make up their mind as to whether they can do it or not. We can’t keep on waiting,” Parrikar said. “The Ministry will think of strengthening the existing fleet of Su-30Mki in case the deadlock continues.”
> 
> Parrikar had earlier last week said, “Rafale deal is not through or final. If it is at all finalized in future, it will take time. I would not like to comment on it as it is still in the negotiation stage,” he said during the lower house session.”
> 
> "I am waiting the Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) report and until the detailed report is submitted, I will be unable to comment on the MMRCA aircraft acquisition. I have asked the CNC to expedite the report. The report is expected in March if not February. It is essential for the ministry to make a final decision about the deal,” Parrikar had said during the Aero India Airshow last month.
> 
> The cost of the program was $12 billion when the initial tender was floated in 2007. The price shot up to $18 billion when Dassault won the contract as the lowest bidder in January 2012.
> 
> The transfer of technology, life cycle costs and creating assembly line might finally cross $20 billion.
> 
> The government may find it difficult to justify a nearly 80% price hike for the Rafale jets to the Indian parliament. In the past, the accounting watchdog, the Comptroller and auditor general (CAG) has criticized the government for its fiscal conduct while concluding defense deals.
> 
> Terms Non-Negotiable On MMRCA Rafale Deal; Indian MoD


LOL signed 18th of march while Parrikar says report expected in march if not february...


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## Storm Force

Abingdon.

Your figures are outrageous of 609.billion .

India is a poor developing country

Rafale is too costly this is the sole issue now.

We are flying cheap rusty obsekete migs

Get realistic

Money is a massive issue for every nation even the rich western countries.

So do t tell us money is no issue

Indians are running scared. Of the totalaacquisition and life cycle cost of thus hyper expensive yet brilliant fighter

And yes I repeat I predicted this issue before any one else on this entire forum


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## #hydra#

Storm Force said:


> LIKE I TOLD YOU GUYS 18 MONTHS AGO INDIA CANT AFFORD BOTH RAFALE & FGFA
> 
> SOMETHING HAS TO GIVE





Abingdonboy said:


> $20 BN is a BS figure. The actual figure is around $15-16 BN (50% of which will be ploughed back into India) and the orginal deal had been valued at $12 BN.
> 
> 
> The MMRCA is about a LOT more than the planes, it will transform the Indian aviation industry, buying 250 Su-34s won't offer the same benfits to India and will only hurt the IAF.





Abingdonboy said:


> $20 BN is a BS figure. The actual figure is around $15-16 BN (50% of which will be ploughed back into India) and the orginal deal had been valued at $12 BN.
> 
> 
> The MMRCA is about a LOT more than the planes, it will transform the Indian aviation industry, buying 250 Su-34s won't offer the same benfits to India and will only hurt the IAF.
> 
> 
> Based on what?? India is going to spend $620 billion on defence between 2014 and 2022 (50% of this will be CAPEX), money is not an issue.


 But this costly technology may not be having the edge in next decade over PLAAF,and French will definitely going to charge us heavily for the future and inevitable midlife upgrades for rafale. The mirage saga is a very good example which will not be the case with Russians.


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## Abingdonboy

nik22 said:


> $620B?? WOW, that is incredible. 2014 is already gone. Budget of 2015-16 is announced. So, for like 6 years India would be spending avg $100B per year?
> 
> Check the figures which Ajai Shukla provided in this image. Total capex for Army, IAF, Navy work out to be $22B (1$ = 62 Rs) in year 2021-22. If Ajai Shukla did some severe stupidity and even If I double the amount, it would be just like $44B.





Storm Force said:


> Abingdon.
> 
> Your figures are outrageous of 609.billion .
> 
> India is a poor developing country
> 
> Rafale is too costly this is the sole issue now.
> 
> We are flying cheap rusty obsekete migs
> 
> Get realistic
> 
> Money is a massive issue for every nation even the rich western countries.
> 
> So do t tell us money is no issue
> 
> Indians are running scared. Of the totalaacquisition and life cycle cost of thus hyper expensive yet brilliant fighter
> 
> And yes I repeat I predicted this issue before any one else on this entire forum



$620 billion includes Opex and Capex:

India’s defence spend may hit $620 billion in FY14-22.



India's economy is now entering another high-growth phase with a sustained period of above 8% growth looking likely, by 2022 India's defence budget will be touching $100 billion an annum. Deals like the Rafale and FGFA will take up but a fraction of this defence budget.


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## sancho

proud_indian said:


> how do you think this TOT will help our industry? Can we implement the manufacturing process we learn while making them here at HAL in to our own projects like tejas?
> For ex I read in some article that we manually create Carbon Fiber Composites parts for tejas, while french don't. So can we learn that and implement that into tejas project in furure?
> 
> what are the critical technologies we wish to acquire in this deal? I don't think they will share engine tech?
> 
> In some point of time in future will we able to manufacture the whole aircraft from raw material?




Modernise our manufacturing process is one part, although I don't think it's needed in the case of the composite materials, since the estimated time to produce a Rafale is pretty close to what Dassault does at the moment in France, with a far more automated process. But overall, learning and implementing this know how into our industry is the key and by far not limited to HAL, it's aimed to spread it over as much Indian companies as possible, to widen the capabilities. Reliance if we like it or not, will be a major player after a Rafale deal, Samtel will benefit hugely wrt optronics, BEL gets the know how of AESA radar systems and EW parts and as halloween stated, much of the M88 engine production will be spread over several Indian subcontractors too, with the end production at HAL.

Critical techs that will be shared are, AESA radar, engine and optronics, not sure how much of the EW will be shared.

Wrt benefits to LCA, sadly DRDO is looking at it as a seperate development, rather than benefitting from joint techs and spare supply. So the benefits for LCA will be limited, while future projects like FGFA or AMCA should gain more.



wiseone2 said:


> why has Rafale deal increased from 10 bil to 20 bil ?
> Have the size of the kickbacks rocketed ? Or the french being greedy ?



It never was at $10 billion, that were only media estimates, based on the initial MRCA tender, the MMRCA was always costlier, but there is no official statement on the cost / budget.

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## Storm Force

I see iaf mmrca saga rumbling on.

I see tejas mk1 entering at a snail's pace until 2020 for forty planes.

I see mk2,coming in 2022.

I see mki service levels dropping 

And I see indecision and red tape leaving iaf at the mercy of both Pakistan abd China


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## Superboy

Storm Force said:


> I see tejas mk1 entering at a snail's pace until 2020 for forty planes.




This is too optimistic IMO. SP-2 will take a long time to deliver IMO.

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## Abingdonboy

Storm Force said:


> I see iaf mmrca saga rumbling on.


One way or another the MMRCA deal ends this year either it is signed or cancelled.



Storm Force said:


> I see tejas mk1 entering at a snail's pace until 2020 for forty planes.


Within 3 years the Mk.1 will be being churned out at 16/year, the latest news is the IAF has insisted on 16/year by next year.



Storm Force said:


> I see mki service levels dropping



A direct contradiction to what the DM has publically stated.

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## PARIKRAMA

Dassault Rafale offer to Malaysia update
*Dassault offers Malaysia 10-yr bank loan to fund Rafale purchase*
*Jon Grevatt, Bangkok* - IHS Jane's Defence Industry
18 March 2015

*France's Dassault Aviation has offered Malaysia a 10-year bank loan to support a purchase of the company's Rafale fighter jet, Malaysian state news agency Bernama reported on 18 March.*

Citing Dassault's chief executive officer Eric Tappier, Bernama reported that the package is similar to the one offered to Egypt, which in February ordered 24 Rafale fighters for a reported EUR5 billion (USD5.7 billion).

Tappier, who was speaking at the LIMA 2015 exhibition in Langkawi, said *the repayment package offered to Malaysia features a 10-year loan provided by an unspecified French commercial bank and guaranteed by the government of France.*

Dassault is offering the Rafale to meet the Royal Malaysian Air Force's (RMAF's) severely delayed programme to procure a Multirole Combat Aircraft (MRCA).

Dassault offers Malaysia 10-yr bank loan to fund Rafale purchase - IHS Jane's 360

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## wiseone2

PARIKRAMA said:


> Dassault Rafale offer to Malaysia update
> *Dassault offers Malaysia 10-yr bank loan to fund Rafale purchase*
> *Jon Grevatt, Bangkok* - IHS Jane's Defence Industry
> 18 March 2015
> 
> *France's Dassault Aviation has offered Malaysia a 10-year bank loan to support a purchase of the company's Rafale fighter jet, Malaysian state news agency Bernama reported on 18 March.*
> 
> Citing Dassault's chief executive officer Eric Tappier, Bernama reported that the package is similar to the one offered to Egypt, which in February ordered 24 Rafale fighters for a reported EUR5 billion (USD5.7 billion).
> 
> Tappier, who was speaking at the LIMA 2015 exhibition in Langkawi, said *the repayment package offered to Malaysia features a 10-year loan provided by an unspecified French commercial bank and guaranteed by the government of France.*
> 
> Dassault is offering the Rafale to meet the Royal Malaysian Air Force's (RMAF's) severely delayed programme to procure a Multirole Combat Aircraft (MRCA).
> 
> Dassault offers Malaysia 10-yr bank loan to fund Rafale purchase - IHS Jane's 360



24 aircraft for $5.7 billion. Wow !!!


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## Corsair

wiseone2 said:


> 24 aircraft for $5.7 billion. Wow !!!


A FREMM frigate was sold with the package.

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## K M Cariappa

Corsair said:


> A FREMM frigate was sold with the package, learn before you talk !


You don't need to act in such a hostile manner.
He clearly stated the facts as were presented to him by the article for which you really don't need to behave in such a childish manner.

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## Corsair

K M Cariappa said:


> You don't need to act in such a hostile manner.
> He clearly stated the facts as were presented to him by the article for which you really don't need to behave in such a childish manner.


I didn't mean sounding rude to wiseone, rather to the article - I am sorry about that.
I toned down my post.

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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> rumours


Do elaborate sir....


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## SQ8

Storm Force said:


> I see iaf mmrca saga rumbling on.
> 
> I see tejas mk1 entering at a snail's pace until 2020 for forty planes.
> 
> I see mk2,coming in 2022.
> 
> I see mki service levels dropping
> 
> And I see indecision and red tape leaving iaf at the mercy of both Pakistan abd China



I see no understanding of anything related to defence whatsoever.



Hindustani78 said:


> New Delhi: Negotiation is taking place for procurement of medium multi-role combat aircraft from Dassault Aviation France but "no final decision" has been taken, the government informed the Rajya Sabha on Tuesday.



"_Abay chahte kya ho Saalon_" An anonymous IAF pilot.


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## PARIKRAMA

The Egyptian deal involves 3 components - 24 rafales, 1 Fremm frigate and weaponery like MBDA air-to-air missiles

A French Senate report said the average unit price of a 6,000-ton FREMM is €605 million, excluding development cost, using 2013 prices. Whereas another source says, French newspaper La Tribune reported in January 2015 that France had offered two DCNS FREMM multi-mission frigates worth 1.8 billion euros and and 20 Dassault Rafales worth 3.6 billion euros.

If we consider Fremm price to be $ 1Bn and weapons package for jets and frigate to be close to $2 -2.2 Bn (thales CEO says thales portion itslef is close to Euro 1Bn) so what is left is between a ball parked figure of = $2.7Bn - $2.9Bn.

Assuming the financial charges and commission for the bank loans for 10 years to be around $ 300-500 Mn then the left over figure is $2.2 Bn - $2.4 Bn and $2.4Bn - $2.6 Bn == $2.2 - 2.6 Bn

Implying each jet is around $ 92Mn - $108 Mn

One source says On the Rafale, the total program cost is €45.9 billion, excluding the development cost, with a unit price of €74 million for the B twin-seater, €68.8 million the C single-seater, and €79 million for the M naval version, based on 2013 prices, a French Senate report said. 

Egypt Seeks Bank Loans for French Arms Buy

Mind you the Euro 68.8 Mn translates to approx $ 89 Mn (Euro/Dollar was around 1.3 in 2013). Thus my ball park figure estimate is almost in line. Only difference would be that Egypt Rafale would be F3R versus 2013 figures of F3. (F3R from 2018 onwards so part fleet perhaps in F3 and part F3R with upgrades later as part of MLU)

BTW if i assume TOT cost and scale for a larger deal the price of $90-110 holds good with perhaps a deal size of $ 11.8-13.8 Bn in the lower side for MMRCA 126 birds. If LCC cost is high (as i still dont know how its calculated within IAF and MOD) then it may balloon to higher figure.


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## migflug

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar informed Parliamentarians recently that ” “The ball is in France’s court, and Dassault have to confirm if they agree to our terms since India will Stick to RFP Clauses and have refused to compromise on terms and conditions .

While Indian Air force repeatedly has told Ministry of Defence and Defense minister that they have “No Plan B ” if MMRCA deal collapses, without Such backup plans given by IAF, Parrikar is already working on his own Plan B according to officials.

Parrikar wants to get FGFA ahead of schedule and wants an early agreement with Russians on this , India and Russia are working together to draft Final contract so that work can start on FGFA and India might also agree to buy first lot of Pak-Fa Single seater Russian variant if MMRCA deal is not finalised .

While IAF is not in favour of additional Sukhoi-30 over Rafale, Parrikar is left with two choice said Defence expert Vinayak Shetty, One is to open Second Production line for Tejas MK-II 2020 onwards so that at least 24 aircrafts are produced each year, IAF is also in favour of Second production line for Tejas MK-II which can produce 8 aircrafts from second line so that 24 aircrafts can be produced each year , but IAF is not able to convince Private players for second production line since IAF still cannot commit orders for Second production line .

if we are looking at replacing Migs in 1 to 1 ratio then IAF will require close to 400 MK-II aircrafts said Vinayak Shetty, even with two production line it will take a decade just to produce 240 aircrafts, then there is always chance that technology will be outdated midway in production, IAF have to put final figure for MK-II or commit higher aircrafts for second production line with scope for developing MK-3 variants.

Second option which Parrikar has already talked about is to increase orders for Su-30 which is already produced in India with ” Super 30 upgrade package ” so that IAF too is on-board such arrangement which will provide improvements in Avionics and radar to keep technology and aircraft relevant for next few decades to come till FGFA takes over in numbers

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## Storm Force

Parrikar is working on speeding up Fgfa.

And. dropping rafale. Over cost issues.

Surprise surprise

Exactly what this storm force guy has been suggesting will happen for the last 17 months.

Storm force at least you understsnd the ground reality of opportunity cost

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## Abingdonboy

Storm Force said:


> Parrikar is working on speeding up Fgfa.
> 
> And. dropping rafale. Over cost issues.
> 
> Surprise surprise
> 
> Exactly what this storm force guy has been suggesting will happen for the last 17 months.
> 
> Storm force at least you understsnd the ground reality of opportunity cost


Utter nonsense. 

The FGFA deal is STILL not signed, Parrikar can say all he likes "speed up FGFA", "MKI is a suitable replacment for the Rafale" it doesn't make it true.

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## Storm Force

Abingdon

You stil beating the rafale drum.

Which part of we don't have $22 billion spare to buy this MMRCA don't you understand 

Please spare me the usual india will spend 600 billion between 2015 -2025 nonsense

India is not China or USA we don't have this cash spare.

THIS IS WHY IAF STYIL FLYS 200 MIG21s

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## Abingdonboy

Storm Force said:


> Which part of we don't have $22 billion spare to buy this MMRCA don't you understand


The deal isn't worth $22 billion and only 15% of this deal will be paid upfront so $2.2-2.7 billion depending on what figure you look at, when the deal is signed money will be made available:

_*However, the defence ministry had told the parliamentary standing committee in late 2014 that when the MMRCA is contracted, additional funds would be made available*._

_FM gives armed forces less than asked for | The Financial Express_

Money is NOT the issue and never has been, has Parrikar or any other offical publically stated this was the issue? NO. Parrikar has explictly stated numerous times that the issue is to do with the OEM sticking to the clauses within the orginal RFP, specifically the liability clauses.

What part of that don't you understand? 



Storm Force said:


> Please spare me the usual india will spend 600 billion between 2015 -2025 nonsense


It is between 2014-2022 and this is a FACT so how is it nonsense?



Storm Force said:


> India is not China or USA we don't have this cash spare.


India is entering into a new phase of high growth, by 2022 India will have a $3TN USD economy so this is a silly argument. Not everyone has to be the US or China to have money to spend on the military.



Storm Force said:


> THIS IS WHY IAF STYIL FLYS 200 MIG21s


No, this is not why the IAF still flies MiG-21s. They still fly the MiG-21s because the GoI got scuppered the IAF's orginal move to order 126-200 Mirage 2000s in the early 2000s and convert the MRCA into the MMRCA contest and the saga began....

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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> Money is NOT the issue and never has been, has Parrikar or any other offical publically stated this was the issue? NO. Parrikar has explictly stated numerous times that the issue is to do with the OEM sticking to the clauses within the orginal RFP, specifically the liability clauses..



Well, hopefully this gets sortied out sooner rather than later; lives of IAF pilots and a serious capability depends upon it. Think of the earlier Burma scenario I posted with the Tejas..
HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 670
What follows is entirely fictional and continues on the theme in the link


*Arrawady Bridge, Burma. September 29th, 2020, 0930 hrs local time: 
Integrated Battle Group East , Operation "Tēj rakṣhak" तेज रक्षक. *

The initial push for Tez Rakshak had been successfull and Ramree Island now served as both Operational Base for IBG east and staging area for further incursions into Burmese territory to form protectorates for Rohingya refugees. Whilst airborne operations were limited to a few Mi-17s staged in the area, certain interdiction by a surprisingly resurgent Myanmar Air Force had forced the quick airlifting of a Rajendra radar via Mi-26 which was joined by a Akash battery brought in by the IN Landing ships. The Vikramaditya was on standby with its aircraft and the INS Shivalik stationed close to the shore to provide additional support, but so far the IAF had been pulling the strings within the Ministry of Defence to ensure that all the Navy was left to do was fly sight seeing tours of the Burmese coast and provide "rear guard" against a fictitious Bangladeshi threat; who really were quite happy with the idea of one potential threat being quashed by another and could not care less for even technical airspace violations by the IAF. 







The initial objectives outlined by the Indian Government covered only the protection of the Rohingya refugees which was supposed to be more of a flexing of muscles which it was hoped would cause the Myanmar Military to back down in concert with the efforts in the United Nations to give mandate to the Indian intervention and replace it with a UN peacekeeping force. It was also hoped that this would mean a quick withdrawal of Indian forces apart from a token presence; but things rarely go according to plan. The Chinese had not taken this incursion into their ally lightly and it seemed that the flexing of muscles was heading into a full muscle man showoff competition. At the UN the Chinese were using their permanent veto to block any resolution on the UN force whilst simultaneously pouring in Arms aid to the Burmese. Whilst NAMICAs were supposed to be airlifted to the front and T-72Ms were loaded on the eastern ports. The Air Force had promised to have AH-64s in the area by this time yet so far the IBG commander was only frustrated by the lack of actual deployment versus what was planned. 

The intervention which was also supposed to be a positive statement to the Indian people as a demonstration of their nation's new power and influence was losing support back home thanks to a no holds barred assault within the media and political front. There were also disgruntled voices within the command itself, after all the Rohingya were a militant Islamic group which were more and more influenced by ISIS; something which did not sit well with the idea of Indian troops protecting their save havens. 

However, the greater pressing issue was the Myanmar military's aggressive posturing which was making everyone from New Dehli and Kolgata down to those sitting in Ramree Island rather nervous. Their fears however, came true when intelligence indicated a large Burmese thrust planning to cross the Arrawady river and head straight for the refugee camps at Minbu , Saku and eventually Datkon. Having not anticipated such a resurgent Burmese threat after 10 days of generally benign operations the Command IBG east found themselves with only a few companies from 21st infantry facing off with some 36 Type 69 Tanks backed by an entire Infantry Division. Whilst hasty plans were made to use existing BTR-80 APCs as a defence line and the troops dug in, A formation of Saraths was hastily rushed towards the front to reinforce the line and perhaps stall the Burmese Advance.









However, without the IAF this was looking to be a certain slaughter unless the Indian forces retreated, but that also meant leaving the Rohingyas to the mercy of the Burmese Army. 


A quick Close air Support mission was called up, and it fell on the shoulders of the newly raised 221sq "Valiants" who had taken on Rafale-IN F4s. Having only recently received their new CFTs they had not had the time to work up on its quirks but the panicked call from the IBG HQ made that matter little. The plan for support was drawn up by a rather smart but overly ambitious group captain who was liaising at Ramree HQ, but it was simple and effective. An earlier recon flight by a Searcher UAV had met with its demise via a modernizaed Sa-2 battery that had been erected at what was thought a defunct site. Which led to the Kalaikunda based Tejas squadron being assigned to a SEAD strike preceding the CAS sortie by a few minutes. 
The plan was simple, the Rafale flight was to perform close air support on now identified positions of the Burmese strike force by CARTOSAT-3. The Su-30 squadron was to provide top cover in case the Burmese Air Force tried something.. it was only recently that the presence of recently delivered JF-17s was disclosed but so far it was not thought that these were an operational threat as Burmese pilots were still working up on the type and as their most precious asset might not commit to an overwhelming fight against Indian air power. 

Time on Target was set at 1000 hours.

As morning rolling in, the hazy weather had little impression on the pilots of "Paycheck" flight. 





They knew their job, their aircraft.. they should; they were the best of the IAF selected to fly their latest type..rumours were that every other pilot outside of their squadron coveted their job save for those working with the FGFA team in Russia. 
Their SEAD escort had already taken off and was on their way to make good on their ToT of 0955







As they lifted off the runway, both they and IBG command east was confident that the day would be saved without any trouble





Plans however, dont always go as written down. What was not known to neither the pilots nor planners was that the Myanmar Army had quietly positioned further Sa-6 batteries to provide cover for their movement earlier, in addition they also had 2S6 Tungskas providing cover. But things went much worse after that, as the Tejas flight was to find out

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## SQ8

As they approached their target, The Tejas SEAD mission found itself being targeted by nothing less than 3 SAM sites; this they had prepared for and were about to focus on the attack. There were reports of a Burmese A-5 flight in the area carrying out strikes but the Su-30s coming in a few minutes later were vectored onto it.. and were making quick carcasses of the Fantans. 
The Rafale flight followed in a minute behind.

However, before they had a chance to shut out the sirens of a radar lock by a SA-6.. the lead Tejas found itself locked up by an air intercept radar...and worse.. an active missile seeker. Making a mad break he hit the Emergency jettison but by the time he had moved a few hundred meters it was too late. Skimming the tree tops waiting for an ambush was a rather deadly foe. 









In full view of his flight, the lead aircraft disappeared in a ball of flame; perhaps it was a combination of bad intel, and his own double edged prudence of having his jammer at full power. But as much was clear that the SD-10 found its mark, guided in silently by the Tejas's own jammer.. whose means of protection turned out to be its doom. 





His wingman had not much luck either, and found to his own end that the SD-10 loves electronic emissions just as much as it does radar targets. 





By this time, Panicked calls of the second Tejas flight were all over the radio.. they were facing not two but four JF-17s. Their savoir however, was not the Su-30 top cover(which had been pulled away by the A-5 flight) but the flight that they were protecting. In his cockpit the lead Rafale already had the air picture sorted for him, even with friendly and enemy targets mixed up.. the Rafale had sorted and presented the target picture. His Weapons system operator in the back seat had locked onto two JF-17s.. and all he had to do was press the trigger. 










The second Tejas section was manoeuvring evasively, but help was on the way.

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## SQ8

The MICA(R)-NG was the deadliest weapon in the IAF's arsenal in the opinion of its operators. Almost immune to anything save a countermeasures fluke and manoeuvrable enough to outturn any aircraft. They leapt from the Rafale's rails and were locked onto the JF-17 flight attacking the remaining Tejas group. The first missile met its mark like a homesick puppy. 





The second missile missile met its mark just as the JF-17 fired a PL-5E-II at the third Tejas. 









The second and third missiles also closed in onto their quarry. 




As the entire JF-17 flight descended in flames, it took the third Tejas with them as the PL-5 had also made its kill...Leaving only number 4 of the Kalaikunda natives to straggle home. 

There was no time however to dwell on what was, and the Rafale flight quickly got to work. The coordinates for the Main Myanmar thrust movement were already within the APACHE's system and its going of the rails were merely a formality. 



#
Although generally a stand off weapon, it was opted to release it closer as to ensure that accurate ID of the troops movement was made before unleashing the following. 








With the Myanmar armour halted in its tracks through the sheer shock of the destruction rained upon them, their SAM support blown to smithereens as its soft skin was no match for anti-tank submunitions, it was time to use the AASMs and turn the Burmese troops around.

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## Capt.Popeye

Wow; @Oscar......keep it coming!!!!!


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## DrSomnath999

@Oscar

impressive stuff But buddy dont you think this scenario would have been more realistic if burma had been replaced by
pakistan.
Ok i can understand why you have stated Burma instead of pakistan 

for readers *SD 10A is known to have HOJ feature i can post the source for that also *
so someone doubting how SD10a get a lock on tejas & destroyed it .
it can be also possible .
*Jamming is a double edge sword it can save you from a missile & can get yourself killed by HOJ mode BVRAAM missile *

Both LCA & rafale currently have on board jamming system 

question JINGOs would ask ??

*Q-Is the author nuts or is paid by dassault group to write this article??*
as how the heck rafale could save his A$$ from SD 10A & meanwhile LCA couldnt as both are having on board jamming????

*ANS*
Spectra's active jamming subsystem uses phased-array antennas located at the roots of the canards. Dassault has stated that the EW transmit antennas can produce a pencil beam compatible with the accuracy of the receiver system, concentrating power on the threat while minimizing the chances of detection.





meanwhile in future if we take 2020 timeframe by that time rafale would have installed expendable RF decoys project LEA





which would give off board jamming capabilty to rafale which would help rafale to dodge HOJ missiles with ease in comparision to on board jamming systems
Rafale News: Rafale developement, TRAGEDAC and LEA

*CHEERS*

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## PARIKRAMA

*Webmaster Chasse *‏@WebChasse  Mar 20
Glorious peel-off. A six-ship #rafale formation from #*ec191gascogne* arrives home after a BFM / BVR dogfight.
















Escadron de chasse 01.091 "Gascogne"

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## SQ8

DrSomnath999 said:


> *as how the heck rafale could save his A$$ from SD 10A & meanwhile LCA couldnt as both are having on board jamming????*



A simpler answer was the JF-17 flights focus on the Tejas group as Burma has much lesser GCI coverage and guidance. Again, the sim takes all into account.. and I've programmed it so that the Tejas has a much more powerful dual-mode jammer than the JF-17 on board. However, electronic emissions are all the same. This scenario had to be played out two to three times to get this storyboard result. The first time the Rafale's were bounced by a F-7 interceptor flight also in the area flying around 500 feet and while they managed to evade that my wingman fell prey to multiple Sa-6 and Sa-18 shots. The JF-17 chewed through the Tejas group before the Su-30s arrived which took down the entire JF-17 group for the loss of one of their own.

The second time the lead Tejas was successful in evading the SD-10 shot because the Su-30 flight picked up the JF-17s and sent a general warning. However , the other three Tejas's still went down.. two to SD-10s and the other to a Tungska ambush. I took out two JF-17s and then went up in a dogfight with the other two. My wingman got one but was trapped by another AAA barrage and got blown up. It became a very tight turning fight with the JF-17 and pretty difficult with SAMs also targeting me. Eventually the JF-17 broke off to fire his SD-10 off at the closing Su-30 flight before he was taken out by a Astra mk-2.

And while this sim is not Lock on realistic in terms of exact avionics simulation, its accurate enough to see how things might play out around 50-70%..

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## Stephen Cohen

The LCA Tejas is good enough to fight and win against its rivals on its own


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## SQ8




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## illusion8

Superb.. @Oscar


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## SQ8

illusion8 said:


> Superb.. @Oscar



If popular demand is persisting, Ill continue.. Although I do not wish to derail the thread.. the idea was to cheer up folks getting tired of the uncertainty and delays in the contract itself.

*Namsang Airbase, Burma. October 1st, 2020, 0130 hrs local time: *
*Integrated Battle Group East , Operation "Tēj rakṣhak" तेज रक्षक. *

The Myanmar military was fighting back, and the losses incurred by the Kalaikunda based Tejas squadron had left a dent in the morale of those at the base and within IAF Eastern command. This was especially odd considering that otherwise the IAF was still able to maintain a 85% success rate for its taskings and had managed to air lift some 3000 troops within a week into the AO( Area of Operations), helped insert a Combined Para/MARCOS team behind Burmese lines for providing "_guerilla_" support and continued to provide round the clock air cover for the entire deployment. But it was not its performance save the recent fiasco that had dented its Morale; The Chinese were now aggressively supplying the Myanmar military with hardware,providing logistic support and as radio intercepts heard in Chinese showed that just hardware was not the only thing the Chinese were providing. At the UN the Chinese were racketing up diplomatic support and attacking India at the UN for "unilateral" intervention under the intention of invading Burma for natural resources. So much so that while India was in a state of war with Burma, it was forced to mask its actions under a defensive umbrella to avoid the now stern stares even its ASEAN allies were giving it on the sidelines of the General assembly. For once, Indian intervention had actually helped democratic ideals within the Junta state as Ann-Sung Kyi was regularly seen being briefed by the Military on day to day activities of the Burmese military. 

This frustrating situation was only made worse by the damning the Indian military was receiving from certain liberal media outlets, and the loss of three pilots along with a 100 other various personnel(_only recently a Dhruv and Mi-17 were lost to an Ambush by pro-Burma "Rebels" using QW-1 SAMs_) made even the more nationalistic media question the need for sacrificing Indian lives.. and made justifying the intervention difficult for Prime Minister Doval who lacked the charisma and general public affection of his erstwhile assassinated predecessor. 

For the leadership at Ramree Island HQ, the options were clear; either they deal a decisive shock and awe blow to the Myanmar military, or face the possibility of an overly extended conflict. In light of this, a plan to attack the key Burmese airbase at Namsang which now housed the bulk of their F-7 and JF-17 fleet was planned. While the area was considered heavily defended by SAM and both radar and standard AAA units, it was decided that 6 Rafale's of two flights each carrying the SBU-64 2000 pound stand off weapon and attacking key targets on the airfield such as the Runway, Control tower and Air craft shelters would send enough of a message to the Myanmar military that they would call for a ceasefire. 

These would be supported by Su-30's providing SEAD cover; having taken over that mantle from the Tejas flight as they could carry more ordnance and also provide effective jamming via the recently inducted TATA/ELBIT Virava ECM pods. Air cover for this mission was tasked to the Kalaikunda Tejas squadron with the theme being their chance to exact revenge from the Myanmar air force but the reality was much different; the Su-30MKIs were barely managing a 65% sortie rate while the Tejas had managed an impressive 85% availability. In addition, the IAF had taken a page out of desert storm and was to use its AH-64Es to attack two Burmese EW radar sites from its staging area on Ramree Island. 
The arrival of a Phalcon in the AO would help provide crucial airspace coverage that was deemed the cause for the previous missions losses. The aircraft would rendezvous with a refueller off the Burmese coast from where the entire package was to arrive with a ToT of 0120 hours. 

The Rafale flight began its roll somewhere around midnight, and to its pilots their confidence in their machine and their own abilities was not misplaced. One flight ditched the CFTs in favour of fatter fuel tanks as it was anticipated that in case an aerial engagement occurred this flight would be responsible for protecting the others. 
As the night sky lit up with the glow of Afterburners, at the edge of the airfield onlookers watched them roll past.. among them were those with Asian features..but as India has a population of such folk in the northeast, suspicions were kept low to avoid a domestic ethnic dispute in this already delicate situation; this suited certain elements within the crowd.. who quietly keyed in messages over secure satphones to their handlers in Beijing. 













They were soon to be joined by Su-30MKIs of Zebra flight, armed with KH-31s to attack Burmese Radars from a distance.. and rocket pods to attack key SAM and AAA positions along the route. The former kept them out of danger,whilst the latter was a death wish not many pilots would like to take. Ideally they would have preferred the stand off comfort of CBU-105s..but the night sky made any certain identification of Burmese assets impossible and only on the spot intelligence from previously inserted Intel teams could provide cues to what the Myanmar military had planned. 





The Phalcon had taken up its station, escorted by Mig-29Ks of the Indian Navy. So far all it could see in the area was the familiar slow crawl of Indian Army Dhruvs flying their Patrols.. and a certain contingent that had just lifted off Ramree Island.





The Tejas flight joined up, looking to repair its wounds

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## SQ8

As the strike package got closer to their initial push points, the Radar operators onboard the Phalcon felt both relieved and worried that so far they had not seen any peep out of the Myanmar Air force.Which was worrisome as the hilly ranges towards Loilam to Mong Kung restricted coverage below 500 feet There were suspected contacts some minutes ago but these were determined to be Burmese Mi-8s flying towards Rangoon. Perhaps if they were picked up again the returning strike package might be vectored in for a kill. Nevertheless, the package had been briefed of this activity or rather lack of activity. 

The Apache's had struck the Radar sites and were now tasked to hold back behind the ranges that concealed Namsang airbase as the Su-30MKI flight and the Tejas fighter sweep rolled in. 






As the Lead MKI flight sorted its radar emissions for the KH-31, the Weapons system officer thought he saw something that made the hair on his neck stand up:
Behind the Hills were two flights of JF-17s flying a tight racetrack Ambush! As he called a break, the JF-17s popped up and all hell broke loose. 





There was little time to react, and despite a barrage of countermeasures Zebra flight found itself struggling to survive. 













The second JF-17 flight rounded the hills and broke into the Rafale flights, as they were already alerted their MICA-EMs had left their rails.. causing the JF-17s to panic and target the closest Rafale before being blown up.. but not before they launched three SD-10s all at one target. 





The SD-10s found their mark, and in an instant two IAF pilots found themselves leaving their aircraft with the prospect of floating down into hostile territory on their minds.

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## SQ8

As the wreckage of the Two IAF aircraft headed towards the ground, the Radar controllers onboard the Phalcon and those back in Kolkata HQ realized that they might have led their attackers into facing the last ditch effort of the Myanmar air force. Where there had been none, there were now six enemy aircraft with two more seen rocketing up from the airfield picked up by their radar, and the target area soon turned into a giant furball with Tejas, JF-17s, MKIs and F-7s.
To top it off, the AAA was much more intense than expected.





The Tejas flight turned into the attackers and the lead flight made quick work of two JF-17s that were chasing Zebra flight. 













What made matters worse was reports of more F-7s scrambling out of the base, but by this time the Rafale's SBU-64
impact, splitting the runway and taxiway in half leaving the Burmese pilots watching helplessly and aborting takeoff. It was effectively the end of air operations from the base for the remainder of the campaign. 





There was however, the matter of the aircraft still in the air. And the Tejas were also targeted by incoming Surface to Air threats whilst in the middle of a turning dogfight with JF-17s. 




The dogfight continued on, with JF-17s going for desperate gun kills before meeting their maker at the hands of Zebra flight, which had extended to rejoin the fight.

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## SQ8

As the Rafales turned back, they found themselves being chased by a lone JF-17 who managed to launch two SD-10s before being blown to bits by a MICA IR. However, the SD-10s knew what they were looking for and the wingmen of the third flight soon found themselves in a not too comfortable position. 








The rest of the flight made its exit good. And Zebra flight with its greater fuel load and loitering time set up a patrol pattern to provide cover and comm support till CSAR from the Vikramaditya could arrive. 





At the end, despite losing three aircraft the IAF had managed to shoot down no less than eight Myanmar Airforce aircraft including 6 JF-17s and 2 F-7s. In addition, Namsang Airfield was put out of commission and its F-7 and JF-17 squadrons were grounded.. along with a number being blown up within a hanger that was stuck. The effect was sudden on the Myanmar Government and their military withdrew from the immediate front leaving its advance stalled fearing that its air cover was now all but lost. 


That pretty much ends that little distraction piece.

None of the above was scripted beyond mission planning. The engagements and their outcomes were all based on parameters.. such as these for the R-74 Archer

Explosives=7.400000
FusingDistance=1.000000
ClusterBomblets=0
ClusterDispersion=0.000000
GuidanceType=10
Accuracy=90
MaxTurnRate=48.000000
MaxLaunchG=9.000000
LockonChance=95
LaunchReliability=89
ArmingTime=0.500000
SeekerFOV=2.500000
SeekerGimbleLimit=60.000000
SeekerTrackRate=60.000000
SeekerRange=20000.000000
CLmax=14.000000
MinLaunchRange=300.000000
MaxLaunchRange=20000.000000
Duration=72.000000
CounterCountermeasure=95.000000
NoiseRejection=80.000000

or the
MICA-EM-NG used for the Rafale F4 standard

ReleaseDelay=1.000000
WarheadType=0
Explosives=12.000000
FusingDistance=2.000000
ClusterBomblets=0
ClusterDispersion=0.000000
GuidanceType=13
Accuracy=98
MaxTurnRate=50.000000
MaxLaunchG=9.000000
LockonChance=100
LaunchReliability=100
ArmingTime=1.000000
SeekerFOV=55.000000
SeekerGimbleLimit=65.000000
SeekerTrackRate=150.000000
SeekerRange=100000.000000
CLmax=14.000000
MinLaunchRange=500.000000
MaxLaunchRange=100000.000000
Duration=180.000000
CounterCountermeasure=110.000000 that is a 110% percent!
NoiseRejection=110.000000


Aircraft radar for e.g. is modelled thus
for the Tejas as an example.

Name=ELTA EL/M-2032
RadarType=AIR_INTERCEPT
RangeUnit=NM
RadarAzimuthLimit=70
RadarElevationLimit=80
RadarSearchTime=1.0
RadarSearchRange=180
RadarSearchStrength=100
RadarTrackTime=4.0
RadarTrackRange=150
RadarTrackStrength=100
VisualBlindArc=5L,6,6L,7L
VisualRestrictedArc=4L,8L
MaxVisibleDistance=6600.0
DopplerLookdown=TRUE
HasRWR=TRUE
BaseRCSModifier=0.75 (reduced RCS of Tejas from assumed base value on its 3d model)

The same for the MKI

RadarName=Pero N011-1-01M
RadarType=AIR_INTERCEPT
RangeUnit=KM
DopplerLookdown=True
RadarAzimuthLimit=70
RadarElevationLimit=40
RadarSearchTime=1.0
RadarSearchRange=200
RadarSearchStrength=220
RadarTrackTime=1.0
RadarTrackRange=150
RadarTrackStrength=220
RadarSearchFreq=9.8
RadarTrackFreq=9.8
RadarMissileGuidanceFreq=6.0
RadarSearchCW=FALSE
RadarTrackCW=FALSE
RadarMissileGuidanceCW=TRUE
VisualBlindArc=5,6,7
VisualRestrictedArc=4L,8L
MaxVisibleDistance=15000.0
HasRWR=TRUE

And so on.
So whatever happens, is based on how the computer flies the aircraft with these parameters and probabilities to get the result you see above.

Ill I do is essentially take screenshots when I catch events happening...which is really fun watching it all unfold. 
@MilSpec @sancho @Capt.Popeye

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## Stephen Cohen

@Oscar 

Since this was Myanmar in this scenario ; do you think that IAF faced an unknown enemy 
whose capabilities were unknown

Because as far as PAF and IAF is concerned ; before any mission
both sides will know what are they likely to run into ; both in the air and from the ground


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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> There was however, the matter of the aircraft still in the air. And the Tejas were also targeted by incoming Surface to Air threats whilst in the middle of a turning dogfight with JF-17s



How come SAMs are fired when there is a dog fight is on?


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## SQ8

rockstarIN said:


> How come SAMs are fired when there is a dog fight is on?



IFF is still active for SAMs and they can take on identified targets. Such engagements happened back in the 82 bekaa valley but the Israelis had purposely mixed up SEAD assets taking on Syrian SAM sites.


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## The Great One

Oscar said:


> IFF is still active for SAMs and they can take on identified targets. Such engagements happened back in the 82 bekaa valley but the Israelis had purposely mixed up SEAD assets taking on Syrian SAM sites.


Why are only JF-17's allowed Terrain Masking in this 'scenario'.


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## SQ8

The Great One said:


> Why are only JF-17's allowed Terrain Masking in this 'scenario'.



That is a likely BARCAP tactic that was also practised by North Vietnamese migs in the same region.
The IAF aircraft also used terrain masking.. the Rafale's all flew in NoE before popping up at the IP for the attack. How do you think they were able to evade the various Manpads, a Sa-6 site and AAA that lined their route?
The MKI SEAD mission entails that it stand out as a radar target so that it gets radars to turn on and target them(the MKIs) which in turns gives them the target cues to attack the enemy Radars.
The Tejas flight also flew pretty low level all the way, only popping up at the IP to provide low level A2A cover(just as the Mig-21s did in Cope India).


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## IND151

LIVEFIST: Rafale Vs. Su-30MKI - The New Indian Dogfight


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## sancho

IND151 said:


> LIVEFIST: Rafale Vs. Su-30MKI - The New Indian Dogfight



The titel sounds more sensational, than the article actually is. Other than the sad situation between the DM and IAF being on different lines, there is not much news in this.

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## drunken-monke

*MMRA Stalemate: Who wins, who loses?

By Ritu Mousumi Tripathy
E*arly 2012. France was getting closer to clinch a mega military deal to sell its Rafale multi-role fighter jets to the Indian Air Force - a deal worth over US$11 billion at that point of time. If signed, it would have become the foremost and biggest export deal for the French-made four+ generation fighter. 

Come 2015, and things have moved nowhere. 

With time and a regime change in New Delhi, the multi-billion dollar defense deal has been stuck in a quagmire. The swiftly-shifting tectonic plates at the global strategic level also appear to have some bearing on the same. 

India, which has been importing most of its high-technology military hardware from overseas since its independence, has become hell-bent to gain the maximum, both in terms of technology and price, out of such a high-profile mega-budget deal wherein a major chunk of its annual defense budget would be spent on acquiring 126 of the new fighters. 

Moreover, with a major thrust on the Make-In-India program, to gain rich technological dividends from the MMRCA deal in the longer run has become the primary driving factor for the current Government.

Once optimistic and euphoric that it would certainly clinch the multi-billion dollar contract to supply such a large number of fighters to the Indian Air Force after emerging as the lowest bidder in the deal piping Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Aviation, has been involved in an excruciatingly long negotiation process with the Indian Defense establishment since 2012. 

Interestingly, while the French fighter had no takers worldwide when India shortlisted it for the MMRCA deal, today it has found a customer at last, with Egypt inking a contract this year to buy 24 of the Rafale fighters. Dassault, otherwise, has already lost a contract in Brazil and one in Switzerland to sell its Rafales. 

Coming back to the Indian turf, a lot of factors appear to have been working against the French fighter to make its headway into the IAF's fleet. While negotiations with the state-run HAL is going on, the major hurdle, as per reports, involves cost of production. 

The RFP issued by the Indian Defence Ministry for the MMRCA contract has stipulated that the winner of the contract will supply 18 of the 126 fighters to the IAF in flyaway condition, while the remaining 108 fighters would be licence-built at HAL's facilities in India. 

Dassault, for its part, has refused to stand guarantee for all the 108 Rafales to be built in India and their production cost. The major issue of contention between the two sides is the original tender issued by the Indian Government way back in 2007, and Dassault's reported veering off from the same now.

The French firm has been arguing that the integration cost of Rafale would go up if assembled at India's HAL which does not have economies of scale. Furthermore, the productivity of labour in the Indian state-run firm is not very high compared to its French counterparts, it has said. 

Meanwhile, ongoing events at the global stage, especially the Russia-West tussle over the Ukraine crisis and France's refusal to hand over the Mistral-class helicopter carriers to Moscow, the contract for which was signed in 2011, appear to have some bearing on the outcome of India's mega budget fighter deal. 

Moscow, one of New Delhi's most trusted strategic allies supplying critical military technology and hardware since decades, has been persuading India not to go for the French fighters on the ground that it may face the same fate as the Mistral-class of warships France was contracted to deliver to Russia. On the other hand, it has been hard-selling few of its own fighters, including the Su-30MKI (already operational with the IAF) and the under-development Su-35 fighter as a replacement for the French Rafale.

Eurofighter Typhoon, which was drubbed by the French fighter, too has made several attempts to woo India to reconsider the deal in its favour. 

Many military analysts have also suggested production and induction of more of India's own light combat aircraft Tejas into the IAF rather than buying the French fighters at a whopping cost, expected to exceed US$20 billion, if signed today. Few have also pitched in favour of Russia's fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) in which India is a partner. The Government, however, has delinked MMRCA from the FGFA deal.

While the IAF has since long felt the urgent need for a four+ generation warplane in its arsenal in the face of its depleting force level of 32 fighter squadrons as opposed to the required 42 fighter squadrons, it is at the political level that the issue has been hauled up, and a final decision at the highest level is still awaited. 

The Indian Government, for its part, is walking a tight rope, signalling that it's not being swayed away by any of the parties pressurizing it to take a call in their favor. After all, the ultimate result must address the immediate security issues of the IAF and the Nation at large. 

Amid st so much twists and turns coming in the way of the MMRCA deal - once pegged as the "mother-of-all" deals - who then becomes the ultimate winner and who the loser? 

Only time will reveal.

MMRCA stalemate: Who wins, who loses? | Brahmand News


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## IrbiS

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/580637640329977856


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## PARIKRAMA

*Caroline Bruneau* @BruneauCaroline · 3h3 hours ago
#Dassault #Rafale "the contract is 95% finalised, we have now to compete it with the MoD in India" Trappier


*Caroline Bruneau* @BruneauCaroline · 3h3 hours ago
#Dassault #Rafale "I do hope we could go fats but we rather take time now than to have problem later" Trappier

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Caroline Bruneau* @BruneauCaroline · 3h3 hours ago
> #Dassault #Rafale "the contract is 95% finalised, we have now to compete it with the MoD in India" Trappier
> 
> 
> *Caroline Bruneau* @BruneauCaroline · 3h3 hours ago
> #Dassault #Rafale "I do hope we could go fats but we rather take time now than to have problem later" Trappier



Many Thanks for this GOOD news 

The remainder can by trashed out during Modi's visit

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## PARIKRAMA

*Dassault Aviation* @Dassault_OnAir · 5h5 hours ago
Rafale is the next logical step. HAL & Indian industries will contribute to the Make in India policy by developing and manufacturing locally
Stéphane Fort retweeted


*Dassault Aviation* @Dassault_OnAir · 5h5 hours ago
"That logically such foundation with Indian Air Force and HAL will pave the way for a much larger challenge : Indian Rafale program" CEO
Stéphane Fort retweeted


*Dassault Aviation* @Dassault_OnAir · 5h5 hours ago
"India is Dassault's first export client and the relationship we nurtured with IAF has spanned 60 years growing strenght to strenght" CEO

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## PARIKRAMA

*Bookmarking all threads opened recently and requesting members to post in this main thread.

Rafale the next logical step under 'Make in India': Dassault*

*new backbone of india : su-30mki vs rafale vs tejas mk2 ?
Sukhoi Su-35 vs Dassault Rafale
Rafale vs sukhoi 30 mki
Rafale Vs Su-30 MKi*

thanks to @CONNAN for these links. Great going on finding all threads running on this..

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## Superboy

When will sign the darn deal?

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## Abingdonboy

Worth watching- doesn't seem to be any hostility between Dassualt and HAL anymore.

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## Stephen Cohen

Superboy said:


> When will sign the darn deal?



Please have some more patience 

This unending DRAMA will end soon


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## kirankumar299

Why didn't IAF go for Thales/SAGEM OSF infrared search and track system on upgraded Mirage 2000 I/TI?


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## IND151

Case for Su-34 as MMRCA | idrw.org

P.S- In hypothetical secenarion where Su 34 is selected instead of Rafale in MMRCA, the SU 34 cant be called MMRCA.


It should be called HMRCA

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## CONNAN

*Airbus speeds sale of Dassault Aviation stake to raise €1.64bn*

Airbus has raised €1.64bn from the accelerated sale of shares in Dassault Aviation, the family-controlled French group that makes the Rafale fighter jet.

The European aerospace group sold 1.61m Dassault shares at €1,030 each, bringing its stake down from 42 per cent to about 24.6 per cent. Dassault shares closed unchanged at €1,240. The stock sale, conducted through a book building exercise, was increased from 1.38m shares during Wednesday as it became apparent that there was greater demand than had been expected.

Airbus has held shares in Dassault since 2000, in an arrangement designed to protect the French state’s interests in the strategically important defence and aviation group. The French government has a 12 per cent stake in Airbus. It has no shareholding in Dassault, which is 55 per cent owned by the Dassault family.

Tom Enders, chief executive of Airbus, has long wanted to sell the Dassault stake, as it had little synergy with the pan-European aerospace and defence group.

Airbus and Dassault are competitors in defence. Airbus is a key shareholder in the Eurofighter consortium that makes a fighter jet competing against Rafale.

However, Mr Enders has had to wait for Franco-German state involvement in Airbus to wane and it was only last year that the company started the process of selling down its original 46 per cent stake in Dassault — potentially worth €5bn.

The move came after TCI, the activist hedge fund, urged Airbus in 2013 to sell the Dassault stake and redistribute the money to shareholders, saying it was “a poor use of capital” with “no synergies” and “limited strategic value”.

The Dassault stake pays a dividend but last year Airbus described the shareholding as “non-strategic”.

The aerospace group began selling some of its Dassault shares in November, raising €794m.

Airbus sold the shares at the top of the range, originally set at €980-€1,030. Dassault will buy about 460,000 of the shares — roughly 5 per cent of its share capital — at €980 each. Trading in Dassault has been suspended until Friday.

Dassault this year won its first export order for its Rafale jet, selling 24 to Egypt. In 2012 the Indian government chose Rafale ahead of Eurofighter but the contract has not been sealed.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cdd3043a-d2cb-11e4-a792-00144feab7de.html#axzz3VTL4UDwS

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## MokshaVimukthi

What does European aerospace know that Dassault doesn't ?  

Is the eurofighter making a come back in MMRCA ? I heard Modi was seriously looking into their offer.


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## Hindustani78

MokshaVimukthi said:


> What does European aerospace know that Dassault doesn't ?
> 
> Is the eurofighter making a come back in MMRCA ? I heard Modi was seriously looking into their offer.



Its almost the same technology , Be it Rafale or Eurofighter .

Rafale the next logical step under 'Make in India': Dassault

Dassault CEO also underlined his company's contribution to the Nrendra Modi-led government's 'Make in India' policy and said the Mirage upgrade programme would serve it as the rest of the fleet would be upgraded in Bengaluru and his firm and Thales would offer their complete support.

A deal on Rafale would be a step in that direction, Trappier said.
"Rafale aircraft has been chosen by India after a comprehensive selection process in the frame of the MMRCA competition and exclusive negotiation is ongoing.


"Rafale is the next logical step. HAL and Indian industries will contribute to the Make in India policy by developing and manufacturing it locally," he said.
Trapper hoped that the contract would be signed soon.

*"It's 95 per cent finalised. The contract is being reviewed with the Defence Ministry (India). I prefer we take time now than all the clarifications coming later," he told reporters at a Dassault facility here.*

Trappier said he was greatly satisfied that Indian Air Force is keen to get hold of the aircraft.

"You can imagine my great satisfaction to hear from Indian Air Force Chief that he wants the combat-proven fighter Rafale, a logical step for the Indian Air force...I believe that contract finalisation could happen soon," Trappier said adding later that he was told during the Aero India in Bengaluru that the organisation was "desperate" to get new fighters.


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## MokshaVimukthi

Hindustani78 said:


> Its almost the same technology , Be it Rafale or Eurofighter .
> 
> Rafale the next logical step under 'Make in India': Dassault
> 
> Dassault CEO also underlined his company's contribution to the Nrendra Modi-led government's 'Make in India' policy and said the Mirage upgrade programme would serve it as the rest of the fleet would be upgraded in Bengaluru and his firm and Thales would offer their complete support.
> 
> A deal on Rafale would be a step in that direction, Trappier said.
> "Rafale aircraft has been chosen by India after a comprehensive selection process in the frame of the MMRCA competition and exclusive negotiation is ongoing.
> 
> 
> "Rafale is the next logical step. HAL and Indian industries will contribute to the Make in India policy by developing and manufacturing it locally," he said.
> Trapper hoped that the contract would be signed soon.
> 
> *"It's 95 per cent finalised. The contract is being reviewed with the Defence Ministry (India). I prefer we take time now than all the clarifications coming later," he told reporters at a Dassault facility here.*
> 
> Trappier said he was greatly satisfied that Indian Air Force is keen to get hold of the aircraft.
> 
> "You can imagine my great satisfaction to hear from Indian Air Force Chief that he wants the combat-proven fighter Rafale, a logical step for the Indian Air force...I believe that contract finalisation could happen soon," Trappier said adding later that he was told during the Aero India in Bengaluru that the organisation was "desperate" to get new fighters.




After 3 years of negotiating, if its only 95% complete, its bad news in my book. It should have been 100% complete if they were serious about the deal.


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## Hindustani78

MokshaVimukthi said:


> After 3 years of negotiating, if its only 95% complete, its bad news in my book. It should have been 100% complete if they were serious about the deal.



i think this has more to do with the upgradation of Mirage2000. HAL will upgrade the remaining Mirage2000 fighter planes in India. I think 47.


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## sancho

kirankumar299 said:


> Why didn't IAF go for Thales/SAGEM OSF infrared search and track system on upgraded Mirage 2000 I/TI?


The IRST is currently not in production and integrating the FSO or the RBE 2 radar requires a re-designed nose section, since more space is needed. Too complicated for a fighter with 10 years time left. It does have "some" IRST capability with MICA IR though.

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## PARIKRAMA

*A Rafale with its Nexter 30mm gun *




Armée de l'air - Armée de l'air's Photos | Facebook




NEXTER Group - 30mm cannon Type 30M791

Courtesy Olybrius

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## PARIKRAMA

*India’s New Fighters Have Serious Engine Problems*
*The SU-30MKIs constantly break down*

by THOMAS NEWDICK

In the past decade, the Indian Air Force has bought hundreds of Su-30MKI fighter jets from Russia. Some of Moscow’s most advanced export fighters, the warplanes should have helped New Delhi strengthen its military.

*But it turns out, the twin-engine jets have failure-prone motors. Their AL-31FP engines break down with alarming frequency.*

In March, Indian defense minister Manohar Parrikar revealed the propulsion problems.

There have been no fewer than 69 investigations involving engine failures since 2012, according to Parrikar. Between January 2013 and December 2014 alone, the Indian Air Force recorded 35 technical problems with the turbofans.

*A shortfall in India’s Sukhoi fleet is a big deal. Especially at a time when India’s fighter squadrons are shrinking, and plans to induct the French Rafale fighter have stalled.*

The Su-30MKI remains the pride of the Indian Air Force. Russia’s Irkut Corporation initially supplied the jets, and today Hindustan Aeronautics Limited produces them under license.

It was on New Delhi’s behest that Russia revamped the Cold War-era Su-27 into this modern “superfighter,” with thrust-vectoring engines, canard foreplanes, a digital fly-by-wire flight control system, electronically scanned radar and air-to-ground weapons.

India had to wait until 2002 before it started to receive the Su-30MKI in the form it had originally requested. The Air Force is set to receive 272 Su-30MKIs.

India also bought 18 austere Su-30K fighters without the multi-role capabilities or thrust-vectoring engines.

Of the Su-30MKIs, Russia has delivered 50. HAL is producing the rest at its Nasik facility, where aircraft continue to roll off the line. With around 15 to 20 aircraft handed over every year, the current orders are set to finish around 2019 or 2020.






Above and below — Indian Air Force Su-30 fighters. Wikimedia photos. At top — Indian Air Force Su-30MKIs perform at an air show. Irkut photo
So what exactly is wrong with the engines? We have a pretty good idea.

*Parrikar attributed the failures to faulty bearings that contaminated the plane’s oil supply. It seems that metal fatigue led to tiny pieces of metal shearing off the friction-reducing bearings, which then entered the oil system.*

*This accounted for 33 of 69 engine failures.

Another 11 failures were the result of engine vibrations, while eight more arose from a lack of pressure in that same lubricating oil. New Delhi has not revealed the cause for the remaining 17 incidents.*

The Air Force responded by taking the issue up with NPO Saturn, the Russian manufacturer. According to Parrikar, the company has come up with nine different modifications to help solve the problems.

*India has already incorporated these “fixes” into 25 engines built at its plant in Koraput. In the future, the engines should benefit from an improved lubrication system, superior-quality oil and bearings that are a better fit.*

However, a more general worry for the Air Force is the poor serviceability of the Su-30MKI fleet — meaning the number of aircraft actually _available_ for operations on a daily basis.

*Based on figures given by Parrikar, only 110 Su-30MKIs are “operationally available.” From a total of more than 200 aircraft that Irkut and HAL had delivered by February 2015, that means 56 percent are ready at any given time.*

India’s Su-30MKI fleet has suffered five crashes since 2009.

To be sure, it’s not a great record, but it’s also not notably bad — especially when compared with the attrition rates of the Indian Air Force’s older fighters. It’s unclear what role, if any, the engine problems played in these accidents.

What’s perhaps more significant is the fact that engine deficiencies have bugged the Flanker from the start.

“The initial batch of 18 Su-30Ks and 10 Su-30MKIs were grounded as a result of engine issues, that were subsequently put down to design problems,” Indian defense blogger Shiv Aroor wrote.
At the end of last year, the Air Force’s fighter strength dipped to just 25 squadrons — its lowest in recent history. India has an officially sanctioned requirement for 42 fighter squadrons, and maintained 32 until recently.

As New Delhi withdraws its older MiG-21s and MiG-27s from service, the total number could fall to just 11 squadrons by 2024.

Casting an eye toward Pakistan and China, a parliamentary committee in New Delhi has argued that 45 fighter squadrons are the _minimum_ India needs to cope with the demands of a “two-front collusive threat.”

Either way, that means India needs _a lot_ of Su-30MKIs — and the jets have to work.




India wouldn’t have to worry as much about its Su-30MKI fleet if it managed to import fighters from elsewhere. For years, New Delhi has unsuccessfully tried to nail down a program to buy 126 Rafale fighters from France.

Of these, Dassault Aviation would supply 18, while HAL would build the remainder. But despite announcements from both the French manufacturer and India, the deal is nowhere close to turning into reality.

*As far as Moscow is concerned, the protracted Rafale deal has presented Russia with an opportunity to try and elbow the French out of the way, and sell yet more Su-30MKIs to India.*

Indian officials have insisted that the Rafale is the only solution to its near-term fighter needs. But that changed at the turn of the year when Parrikar told reporters that an additional Su-30 buy could provide a solution — if negotiations with Paris were to terminally collapse.

The statement came as a surprise to the Air Force, which has long been wed to the Rafale, which it presents as the tailor-made solution to its fighter needs. On this occasion, the Air Force countered that the Su-30MKI and Rafale programs were indivisible, and fulfilled two different requirements.

*But if the Sukhoi’s engine problems aren’t fixed soon, then this option might become less attractive. Perhaps as an insurance policy, Russia is now pushing India to buy its Su-35 — a more advanced, single-seat fighter based on the same Flanker airframe.*

Regardless of what happens, the Russian-designed jet will have a place in the inventory for some time to come, despite its problems. *There simply are lots of Su-30MKIs on order. India is also keen to pursue an upgrade for the jet, known as the Super 30.*

This will add a new computer system and upgraded mission avionics, including an advanced active electronically-scanned array radar. Other changes will include revised countermeasure systems and “stealth” coatings to reduce radar signature.

New weapons will include the indigenous Astra air-to-air missile.

The 80-kilometer-range Astra was first successfully flight-tested from a Su-30MKI in May last year and destroyed a target drone. It was a good bit of PR for the Indian jet at a time when it needed it the most.

While the Astra will eventually arm most Indian fighters, one other missile will likely remain the sole preserve of the Su-30MKI. The Sukhoi is currently the only Indian Air Force fighter able to lift the heavyweight Brahmos-A, an Indo-Russian supersonic cruise missile.

*But let’s back up for a second. Why did Parrikar mention the Su-30MKI as a possible replacement for the Rafale if the negotiations collapse? He knows the Russian fighters have loads of problems — as does everyone else. So that doesn’t make any sense.*

*Unless … you want to scare India’s politicians enough to finally close the deal on the Rafale.*

India’s New Fighters Have Serious Engine Problems — War Is Boring — Medium

*Rafale: Thales reduces the loop of information*
Published on 03/27/2015 at 10:37 by Jean-Marc Tanguy





_Commissioned in 2011, the Reco NG pod allows the collection of digital images at high and low altitude, high speed shooting day and night as well as video surveillance. It is constantly updated. the version deployed to Iraq © JL Brunet - Air Army_
*The speed of diffusion loop and processing information acquired by airborne sensors is essential for efficient operations. Responding to an upstream study plan (PEA) of the DGA notified in April 2014, Thales has developed a solution so that the Rafale can transmit much faster than before the images of his Reco-NG reconnaissance pod.*

Rapid transmission of information taken from a theater to a command center and control (C2) allows decision making and therefore many fast action. Dubbed Daétris, the solution developed by Thales responds to a need expressed following the operations in Libya and Mali.

*Reco-NG pod Rafale already has a wireless transmission capacity of its image stream (TMA6000) collected during reconnaissance. Problem: this transmission was limited in scope. The aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle or deployed an advanced ground base can pick the Rafale pod images up to a distance of 150 to 200 km, still well before the return of the aircraft to the ground. Remains that beyond this distance, the Rafale can not be transmitted, with the risk of real loss of interest information captured by the Rafale, especially in "time sensitive target."*

*Thanks to the solution of Thales, the pod will now send its output to a flying tanker aircraft with an additional antenna. On board, a SAIM bracket (support system multisensor interpretation) will be installed with an operator who will select the most relevant images in order not to saturate the binding of tanker SATCOM (already in place), which has a slower rate.*

*The images can then be received in record time by one before C2 (deployed in the theater) and rear (air operations center in Lyon Mont Verdun), as well as the intelligence community (DRM DGSE, etc).Thales believes that time to gain a factor of 4, which in a military context provides a significant advantage.*

Flights aboard a tanker strategic air forces will power next summer for a trial 12-month campaign of experiments conducted by the EHIC (flight test center Military).

Especially such a solution opens new horizons, and Rafale could, for example, transmit video images of a targeting pod. The Airbus MRTT will it, comes standard with this ability.

Translated from French
Rafale : Thales réduit la boucle du renseignement - Air et Cosmos

*RECO-NG pod*






Courtesy Olybrius for finding both articles.


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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> *India’s New Fighters Have Serious Engine Problems*
> *The SU-30MKIs constantly break down*
> 
> by THOMAS NEWDICK



So after Russian PR against the Rafale, now western PR against the Su 30. 

Fact check:

- Rafale inducted in 2001, around 133 fighters operational if I'm not wrong, with 5 crashes
- Su 30MKI inducted in 2002, around 200 fighters opperational in IAF today, with 5 crashes

For both, most of the crashes were caused by pilot errors and not technical problems, but with the higher numbers of the MKI, it rather shows an impressive technical reliability for a Russian fighter!

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## halloweene

sancho said:


> The IRST is currently not in production and integrating the FSO or the RBE 2 radar requires a re-designed nose section, since more space is needed. Too complicated for a fighter with 10 years time left. It does have "some" IRST capability with MICA IR though.


no


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> So after Russian PR against the Rafale, now western PR against the Su 30.
> 
> Fact check:
> 
> - Rafale inducted in 2001, around 133 fighters operational if I'm not wrong, with 5 crashes
> - Su 30MKI inducted in 2002, around 200 fighters opperational in IAF today, with 5 crashes
> 
> *For both, most of the crashes were caused by pilot errors and not technical problems, but with the higher numbers of the MKI, it rather shows an impressive technical reliability for a Russian fighter!*




from 5 crashes have been reported for rafale 1 for airforce /4 for navy
only 1 crash that too of navy from technical defect majority for pilot error

*majority of MKI crash rate has something to do with technical defects though pilot error is just a face saving gimmick by the Russians investigators unlike majority of rafale crash *

MKI's engines have indeed serious technical , relaibilty & proper maintanence issues

other issues have also been prevoiusly reported too in MKI


*CHEERS*

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## halloweene

sancho said:


> So after Russian PR against the Rafale, now western PR against the Su 30.
> 
> Fact check:
> 
> - Rafale inducted in 2001, around 133 fighters operational if I'm not wrong, with 5 crashes
> - Su 30MKI inducted in 2002, around 200 fighters opperational in IAF today, with 5 crashes
> 
> For both, most of the crashes were caused by pilot errors and not technical problems, but with the higher numbers of the MKI, it rather shows an impressive technical reliability for a Russian fighter!


Lets be frnk. full inspection of AL 31 is about 500 hours. M88-2 is around 4000 hours (and in fact is not needed due to ontime diagnosis system)

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## Capt.Popeye

halloweene said:


> Lets be frnk. full inspection of AL 31 is about 500 hours. M88-2 is around 4000 hours (and in fact is not needed due to ontime diagnosis system)




While Saturn claims something like 1200 hrs, actually its about 500-800 hours. Heat and Dust in the Sub-Continent is un-forgiving on aero-engines apart from intrinsic issues. That is a different matter from Safran or Snecma orHoneywell or GE or P&W design into their engines.

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## halloweene

Capt.Popeye said:


> While Saturn claims something like 1200 hrs, actually its about 500-800 hours. Heat and Dust in the Sub-Continent is un-forgiving on aero-engines apart from intrinsic issues. That is a different matter from Safran or Snecma orHoneywell or GE or P&W design into their engines.


Same as Rafale in the UAE...


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Lets be frnk. full inspection of AL 31 is about 500 hours. M88-2 is around 4000 hours (and in fact is not needed due to ontime diagnosis system)



Which only shows the higher maintenance requirement of Russian engines, not a the claimed technical problem, which simply is baseless as shown. MKIs reliability in IAF is better than Rafales in French forces and not a single MKI crash, was caused by a technical problem of the engine. Even if you take the claimed number of incedents with the engine and put it in the right perspective of the number of MKIs in IAF, the flight hours per year each MKI have and that over more than a decade, it's just laughable to claim a serious issue.
We know that Russian stuff is not made of low maintenance, we know that Russian after sale supply is not the best and both surely were reasons why Rafale and EF had advantages over the Mig in the MMRCA (or why the IAF like the Mirage 2000), but that simply doesn't take away the fact that the track reckord of the MKI in safty and reliability is more than good so far!

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## K M Cariappa

*French government support for Rafale can lower unit cost*

France's Dassault Aviation may be about to enjoy government financial support of the type that would enable its Rafale fighter to push into export markets. Both the contract announced earlier this year for 24 aircraft to be sold to Egypt, as well as a proposal made in mid-March for what is anticipated to be a request for proposals for a 16-18 aircraft buy from Malaysia, feature loans backed by French government guarantees as the financing mechanism for the sales.

The twin-engine French fighter has a number of attractive features from the perspective of the nations that have considered purchasing it. One is that the design is not speculative; the major systems like the active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar from Thales and the Snecma M88-2 engine are all already in service on operational French Rafales.

Another positive is that the aircraft is available in both land- and carrier-based variants. This is an attractive set of options for nations looking to acquire aircraft carriers in the near future in that they could be flying one basic type of fighter across more than one service branch.

Thirdly, the Rafale is fitted with a full array of European-made weaponry that gives whoever purchases the aircraft the ability to operate weapons that do not fall under the umbrella of US export control guidelines. Dassault also offers more lenient terms on access to software source code and other technology compared to, for example, US manufacturers, so that the nations that purchase the aircraft would have greater autonomy when deciding how to modify the aircraft for their own mission requirements.

French government support for Rafale can lower unit cost - IHS Jane's 360

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## halloweene

Ite Missa Est


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## Stephen Cohen

halloweene said:


> Ite Missa Est



How is this religious term related to RAFALE

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## Bilal9

Capt.Popeye said:


> While Saturn claims something like 1200 hrs, actually its about 500-800 hours. Heat and Dust in the Sub-Continent is un-forgiving on aero-engines apart from intrinsic issues. That is a different matter from Safran or Snecma orHoneywell or GE or P&W design into their engines.



I thought almost all Russian fighter aircraft have a FOD intake barrier (separate intake on top switched while taxying). Mig-29s and even the tiny Yak 130 trainers being inducted by Bangladesh have it.

Are maintenance hours a big deal when translated into Indian salary? I understand timely supply of spares from NPO Saturn is an issue but I thought that the engines were going to be manufactured/assembled locally at some point?


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## Capt.Popeye

Bilal9 said:


> I thought almost all Russian fighter aircraft have a FOD intake barrier (separate intake on top switched while taxying). Mig-29s and even the tiny Yak 130 trainers being inducted by Bangladesh have it.
> 
> Are maintenance hours a big deal when translated into Indian salary? I understand timely supply of spares from NPO Saturn is an issue but I thought that the engines were going to be manufactured/assembled locally at some point?



This is nothing to do with FOD. It has to do with fine dust ingestion which acts as an abrasive on the internal moving parts moving at such high RPM. It works like sand/grit blasting. Those doors/barriers are unable to keep that out. Even the high ambient temperatures do not help, it works to break down lubricants prematurely.

Do you think that maintenance hours are not a big deal??
Would you prefer that your car has a 1000 km service/oil-change interval or a 10,000 km interval? Even with the rates of the _'zinzira-boys'_ mechanics in your country?


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## Bilal9

Capt.Popeye said:


> This is nothing to do with FOD. It has to do with fine dust ingestion which acts as an abrasive on the internal moving parts moving at such high RPM. It works like sand/grit blasting. Those doors/barriers are unable to keep that out. Even the high ambient temperatures do not help, it works to break down lubricants prematurely.
> 
> Do you think that maintenance hours are not a big deal??
> Would you prefer that your car has a 1000 km service/oil-change interval or a 10,000 km interval? Even with the rates of the _'zinzira-boys'_ mechanics in your country?



Understood. However dust/grit is nothing new to the subcontinent. Our dust in Bangladesh (dried silt) is as fine as talcum powder and is everywhere during the winter. 

What I'm asking is that Since starting assembly of the first soviet fighters in the sixties (Mig 21) that issue has always been present and the maintenance regime in India has always dealt with it. What changed lately with the SU-31 that this dust thing became a big issue now...

Maintenance costs in India are a fraction of what is accepted in the West as a cost of ownership. Other than the hassle - the increased maintenance interval can be factored into the overall cost of ownership.

Some people (including local) are okay with the compromise with older cars. But generally even ten year-old JDM re-conditioned cars (the lower end of the market) are as reliable as an anvil. Sorry for the OT segway.


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## Capt.Popeye

Bilal9 said:


> Understood. However dust/grit is nothing new to the subcontinent. Our dust in Bangladesh (dried silt) is as fine as talcum powder and is everywhere during the winter.
> 
> What I'm asking is that Since starting assembly of the first soviet fighters in the sixties (Mig 21) that issue has always been present and the maintenance regime in India has always dealt with it. What changed lately with the SU-31 that this dust thing became a big issue now...
> 
> Maintenance costs in India are a fraction of what is accepted in the West as a cost of ownership. Other than the hassle - the increased maintenance interval can be factored into the overall cost of ownership.
> 
> Some people (including local) are okay with the compromise with older cars. But generally even ten year-old JDM re-conditioned cars (the lower end of the market) are as reliable as an anvil. Sorry for the OT segway.



The life of all Aero-Engines in the Sub-Continent is lesser than in the countries where they are designed and manufactured. Also while they run; the produce less power than originally designed for. 
_All that cannot be corrected only coped with. _With more frequent OH and greater use of consumables.

It is pretty much the same with all engines; whether steam turbines or reciprocating Diesel/gasoline engines. Aero/GT Engines are rated for an ambient temperature of 15 deg Celsius. How many parts of the sub-continent have that kind of prevailing temp.?

You are mistaking Labor costs with Maintenence Costs! Only Labor costs are a fraction of the costs in the West. All other Maintenance costs are the same if not more; actually more because of more consumption of parts and the costs of the parts themselves. This applies to automobiles (if you are using good quality spares, not local spurious substitutes) and it certainly applies to aircraft!
So your statement is fallacious.

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## topgun047

Capt.Popeye said:


> The life of all Aero-Engines in the Sub-Continent is lesser than in the countries where they are designed and manufactured. Also while they run; the produce less power than originally designed for.
> _All that cannot be corrected only coped with. _With more frequent OH and greater use of consumables.
> 
> It is pretty much the same with all engines; whether steam turbines or reciprocating Diesel/gasoline engines. Aero/GT Engines are rated for an ambient temperature of 15 deg Celsius. How many parts of the sub-continent have that kind of prevailing temp.?
> 
> You are mistaking Labor costs with Maintenence Costs! Only Labor costs are a fraction of the costs in the West. All other Maintenance costs are the same if not more; actually more because of more consumption of parts and the costs of the parts themselves. This applies to automobiles (if you are using good quality spares, not local spurious substitutes) and it certainly applies to aircraft!
> So your statement is fallacious.



Surely the "Hot Engine" technology that is in the works within DTTI will help address some of the issues.


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## Capt.Popeye

topgun047 said:


> Surely the "Hot Engine" technology that is in the works within DTTI will help address some of the issues.




That seems to be the intention.


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## halloweene

Stephen Cohen said:


> How is this religious term related to RAFALE


originally it means the mass is said. Became vernacular to said things are completed.

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## Stephen Cohen

halloweene said:


> originally it means the mass is said. Became vernacular to said things are completed.



SO Dear Sir 

Please be kind enough to share with us some more details 
when can we expect some good news


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## Hindustani78



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## halloweene

Stephen Cohen said:


> SO Dear Sir
> 
> Please be kind enough to share with us some more details
> when can we expect some good news


Dassault comm dpt is on OFF, so i do not have any comment, but you can see smiles, smileys etc. I know someone who was hired by DA and she is scheduled to go to india in April, planning didn't change. That sort of things.

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## Abingdonboy

*No Rafale sale announcement before Modi’s visit to France: Francois Hollande*

_PARIS (R-euters) - French President Francois Hollande said there will be no news on the sale of Rafale fighter jets to India *before* the arrival of Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Thursday for a state visit to France.
"There will be no announcement on the Rafale sales before the visit of Prime Minister Modi in France and I do not want the Indian premier's visit to be put in the context of a contract," Hollande told reporters in Paris.
*"We are working on it,"* Hollande added, when asked about the proposed sale of 126 Rafale jets to India.


http://townhall.com/news/politics-el...lande-n1981769_


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## Hindustani78

A Rafale fighter jet flies over the factory of French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation in Merignac near Bordeaux during a visit by the French President March 4, 2015.
Reuters/Regis Duvignau


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## halloweene

@stephen, please do not call me sir, we are very shy here with our names/titles. Yves will be good enough

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## migflug

*Suspense over Rafale deal continues as Narendra Modi is set to visit France*
Published April 8, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE : PTI






Suspense continued on Tuesday over whether the issue of Rafale fighter deal, which has been stuck over cost, will figure in talks that Prime Minister Narendra Modi will have with French President Francois Hollande during his visit beginning on Thursday.

French Ambassador Francois Richier, while addressing a press conference here on Modi’s visit, was evasive to questions over the multi-billion dollar deal, which has been held up for long. However, sources said, “negotiations are on” for the deal under which French company Dassault Aviation will supply 126 Rafale fighter planes.

Richier said French companies, including those in the field of defence, are keen to participate in the ‘Make in India’ programme and the fate of Rafale deal will be a key element in this. Rafale was selected by India from among five bidders in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder.

Indian government officials say that while the deal was initially for about Rs 42,000 crore, French are seeking a higher price now. This, the Indian officials say, has put the price at a “little more than double the cost”.

India is insisting that Dassault Aviation cannot renege on the Request for Proposal (RFP) clauses, which it had initially agreed to.

Even at political level, India has categorically told the French side that it must stick to the RFP, in which Dassault was the lowest bidder and hence was selected for the contract. “The ball is in France’s court,” an Indian official had said sometime back.

The French Rafale and European Eurofighter Typhoon were the only two left in the race for 126 fighter plane deal after years of tests on technical and other aspects. Another point of contention is the guarantee clause under which Rafale has to stand guarantee for the planes that would be manufactured by state-owned HAL.

As per the RFP issued in 2007, the first 18 jets are to be imported and the rest 108 manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). According to the sources, Dassault was reluctant to stand guarantee for the 108 fighters to be built by HAL as far as liquidity damages and timelines for production were concerned.

The Indian Defence Ministry is of the view that the guarantee clause was part of the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQR) under the RFP. Dassault had agreed to the ASQR and hence was selected for the deal, the sources maintained. “How can the ASQR be relaxed? This is not allowed under the Defence Procurement Procedure, 2013,” the sources said.

However, French authorities insist otherwise. Talking about the price and guarantee clause, the sources said all this takes place within the Indian Defence procurement procedure. “At the conclusion of the competition, the Rafale was selected and its competitors eliminated on the basis of technical/operational assessment and on the basis of price,” they said.

During his talks in France, Modi is expected to refer to his government’s ambitious plan of creating 100 ‘smart cities’ across India and invite French participation. The French Ambassador said his country will see how it can contribute to this endeavour. He said France has expertise in building new cities while preserving the heritage.

Modi will be visiting one of the ‘smart cities’ of France during his visit. The two sides are also expected to discuss cooperation in the field of technology, including space. A new programme of cooperation in the field of space is likely to be signed during the visit. Under it, India will launch French satellites while Indian satellites can be launched from France.

French companies are also keen to enter the Small and Medium Enterprises (SME) market of India as part of “rebalancing” the trade. During his visit, Modi will meet the business leaders of France besides the political leadership. He will also visit the Airbus manufacturing base.

He will also visit a memorial set up for Indian soldiers who died while fighting with France in World War-I against Germany. 9,000 of them had died in that war and Modi will pay homage to them.


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## drunken-monke

*India draws bottom line, warns Rafale*​
India will not ink the mega $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 fighters till France agrees to stick to its original pricing, which led its Rafale fighter to defeat the Eurofighter Typhoon in commercial evaluation over three years ago.

This is India’s “bottom line” on which the outcome of long-drawn final negotiations with French aviation major Dassault now hinges, even as Prime Minister Narendra Modi is all set to leave for France on Thursday as part of his three-nation tour.

“Dassault has to adhere to its earlier commitments. No Indian government can finalize such a major project if the L-1 (lowest bidder) pricing is changed… it can be a deal-breaker despite political pressure from France,” said a top source.

As first reported by TOI, the defence ministry is upset with Dassault’s attempt to “change the price line” because it will substantially jack up the production cost of the 108 Rafales to be made by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) in India after the first 18 are imported.

As per Dassault’s costing, there is now a “big jump in the man-hours needed” for each jet to be produced by HAL after transfer of technology. In effect, each jet will now cost much more than what was originally projected.

“Hypothetically, if the cost of each jet goes up by around Rs 30-40 crore, we will then be looking at a hike of Rs 3,240-Rs 4,320 crore for the 108 jets to be made here. Dassault should relent, become fully compliant to the RFP (request for proposal) and stand 100% by its original offer. It can live with a slightly lesser profit margin,” said the source.

There is, however, progress on the other major stumbling block. A mechanism is being evolved to ensure there are no penalties or liquidity damages imposed on Dassault if HAL fails to deliver as per specified timelines, sources said.

The voluminous MMRCA contract was almost 90% done, with technology transfer, offsets and other issues as well as the inter-governmental agreement all ready, when pricing and guarantee issues stalled negotiations almost a year ago.

With continuing delay in finalization of the MMRCA project and IAF down to just 34 fighter squadrons (14 of them made of old MiG-21s and MiG-27s), India is also trying to fast-track the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft project with Russia, as reported by TOI earlier.

India has told Russia it wants deliveries of the FGFA to begin 36 months after the main contract is inked, instead of the 94 months envisaged earlier. For this, India is ready to switch from the original co-development and co-production plan to direct acquisition of an initial lot followed by co-production. India will spend around $25 billion on the FGFA project if eventually 127 such fighters as planned.

India draws bottom line, warns Rafale - IBC World News


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## migflug

Mohan Guruswamy
Apr 08, 2015 

From 2000 onwards the total FDI in India was close to $900 billion. France’s contribution was below $15 billion or about 2% during this period. Clearly the economic relationship could do better.
.
Prime Minister Narendra Modi will visit Paris later this week, reciprocating French President Francois Hollande’s visit to India in February 2014. Despite the frequent high-level interactions there has been little traction on substantive issues. 

There are several long-pending deals such as six new nuclear power plants by Areva and Nuclear Power Corporation of India (NPCIL), a government-owned entity, and the order for the Dassault Aviations Rafale fighter, that have long-term implications for India and France. In both these deals pricing has become a major bone of contention and it seems unlikely that these agreements will be formalised any time soon, apart from a reiteration of determination to iron out differences.

In the case of the nuclear power project envisaged for Jaitapur on the west coast state of Maharashtra, Areva has sought a tariff of `9.18 per unit. This has been challenged by prominent sections of civil society as being too expensive. Besides, the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party’s ally in Maharashtra, the Shiv Sena, is opposed to the project because of local objections on environmental grounds. The area around Jaitapur is politically significant to the Shiv Sena and overruling it may have political consequences for the BJP.

The Rafale fighter deal is stalled not only due to the high costs involved, but also due to disagreement on how the local component of fighters to be produced in India will be aggregated. Dassault has taken the position that it cannot guarantee the quality of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) built 108 Rafale fighters after the first 18 are imported. But many experts here say that this is merely a fig leaf to cover Dassault’s financial inadequacy. According to them, Dassault wants another local partner, like the private-sector giant Reliance Industries Limited (RIL), to complete the deal. RIL, with its $10 billion cash hoard, has already set up a defence sector business unit, Reliance Aerospace Technologies Pvt Ltd (RATPL), in anticipation of this.

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar has, however, made his position clear. The terms of the Indian Air Force tender require the French company to guarantee the 108 fighters that HAL would build in India. 

Mr Parrikar said, “I have told Dassault to send a person to work out the differences. You have to be clear that, irrespective of anything, the tender’s terms have to be met. They cannot be diluted.”

Then there is the question of money. The initial estimation of $12 billion has now escalated to over $22 billion. The defence minister has publicly questioned the high cost of the Rafale by rhetorically asking as to how he can justify the purchase of a fighter that costs twice as much as the Russian Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter being produced in India. 

To add to Dassault’s discomfiture, Mr Parrikar has also disclosed that the highly rated Su-30MKI costs Rs 358 crore each compared to the `700 crore price tag for the Rafale. This means two Su-30s could be secured for the price of a single Rafale. Many knowledgeable people in the military tend to believe that the Su-30 is a more capable aircraft and certainly represents better value for money. The IAF has an order of 272 of these fighter planes and they are now manufactured by HAL and the Russians have already offered an upgrade to make Su-30 even more potent. 

There are others in the influential bureaucracy who are not entirely enamoured of French partnerships given the manner in which the project to manufacture six Scorpene-class submarines has meandered along with huge implicit price escalations. 

The Scorpene deal is with the DCNS, a French-law public limited company in which the French state holds a 64 per cent stake, private weapons maker Thales 35 per cent and the personnel a 1 per cent stake. It is the heir to Direction des Constructions et Armes Navales (DCAN). 

In 2005, the Indian Navy ordered six Scorpene submarines, all to be built at the ministry of defence- owned Mazagon dock and elsewhere, with the last two to be fitted with an Indian air-independent propulsion (AIP) module. 

The first India-made Scorpene has just been floated, 12 (?) years behind schedule. There is also a follow-on requirement of six submarines, for which DCNS plans to offer a larger version of the submarine to the Indian Navy. 

India has just floated a requirement for six new submarines to replenish its depleting fleet, but other companies too will be in the fray.

India and France entered a strategic partnership in 1998 to ensure bilateral cooperation through regular high-level exchanges at the head of state level, and growing commercial exchanges, including in strategic areas such as defence, nuclear energy and space. 

The number of “strategic partnerships” India has with other countries causes some hiccups, but even so the relationship with France is a highly valued one — France ranks just below Russia and the US as India’s third most preferred partner, higher than Britain and Japan. 

A high-ranking official recently summed this up as France being preferred even though “it has time and again proved to be more mercenary than we like.”

On the economic front France is still not much of a partner with bilateral trade of about eight billion euros. This is less than India’s trade with all of France’s neighbours such as Germany, Belgium, the United Kingdom, Netherlands and Italy. From 2000 onwards, the total foreign direct investment in India amounted to close to $900 billion. 

France’s contribution has been below $15 billion or about 2 per cent during this period. Clearly the economic relationship with France could do with much improvement and the political relationship, based more on arms transfers, is something neither country should be comfortable with. 

Sadly, there are few expectations of a Modi-Hollande breakthrough on this score. But, as the French would say, c’est la vie (this is life).

The writer held senior positions in government and industry, and is a policy analyst studying economic and security issues. He also specialises in the Chinese economy.

*India Prime Minister to Discuss Rafale Fighter Jet Deal During France Visit*
Published April 8, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE : Sputnik






Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi is set to discuss a long-disputed deal to buy Rafale fighter jets during his visit to France scheduled for April 10-11, France’s Ambassador to India Francois Richier told Sputnik Tuesday.

“Only thing I can say on Rafale is that the deal is on. Rafale deal will be on the agenda of talks during Indian Prime Minister Modi’s visit to France,” Richier said.

The diplomat declined to give any further details.

Earlier, Indian media reported that New Delhi might pull out of the $20-billion deal with the French Dassault Aviation Company on an acquisition of 126 Rafale fighters.

In 2012 the Dassault Aviation won a bid to supply 126 Rafale fighter jets to India but the purchase was delayed over high costs and the company’s refusal to guarantee the performance of Rafales produced in India.

Russian and British fighter jets have been tipped as a possible replacement for the Rafale jets if the deal should be scrapped.


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## Hindustani78

With Rafale deal stuck, Germany says Eurofighter option ready | Zee News
Last Updated: Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - 15:20

New Delhi: Days ahead of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit there, Germany on Wednesday said European military consortium EADS was still ready to provide India Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft, asserting that the jets are "good" both in terms of quality and price.


India has been in negotiations for last three years with France's Dassault Aviation for procurement of 126 Rafale jets, which is being considered world's biggest military aircraft deal.

German Ambassador Michael Steiner said the European Aeronautic Defence and Space (EADS) was ready with its proposal to offer Eurofighter to India.

"The consortium stands ready with their proposal. The governments of the four nations are supporting this proposal because they are convinced it is a good one both in terms of quality of the product and price," he told reporters.

At the same time, he said the consortium will continue to respect the Indian procurement procedures and it was for India to decide what kind of aircraft it wants to procure.

Prime Minister Modi and German Chancellor Angela Merkel will jointly inaugurate the Hannover Messe fair on April 12. India is the partner country for the famous fair this year.

Rafale was selected by India from among five bidders in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder. The Rafale and European Eurofighter Typhoon were the only two defence majors left in the race for 126 plane-deal after years of tests on technical and other aspects.

Modi is also visiting France but it is not clear whether the Rafale deal would figure during his talks with French President Francois Hollande.

The deal with Dassault Aviation has been stuck for the last three years on cost and guarantee clause. Indian government officials say that while the deal was initially for about Rs 42,000 crore, French are seeking a higher price now.

Under the guarantee clause Rafale has to provide guarantee for the planes that would be manufactured by state-owned HAL.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

US Filling Saudi Munition Holes | China, South Korea Talk Arms Control THAAD’s Shadow | Airbus Seeks Indian Partner

*US Filling Saudi Munition Holes | China, South Korea Talk Arms Control in THAAD’s Shadow | Airbus Seeks Indian Partner*
Apr 07, 2015 00:28 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff
*America*

Rockwell Collins was awarded a $495 million contract Tuesday for software and system integration on the Army’s helicopters, with a portion of these services earmarked for foreign sales. The company was also awarded a $8.1 million modification for the Common Avionics Architecture System to equip CH-47F helos.
In further good news for Rockwell Collins, the company will supply 44 Communication Navigation Surveillance/Air Traffic Management systems for the KC-10 tanker fleet, following a similar contract in August.
The US is ramping up arms transfer to the Saudis, media reported Tuesday, with munitions high on the list of requirements. The assistance is being allocated through a Joint Planning Cell with the Saudis.
*Europe*

The European Defence Agency announced new funding for dual-use technologies , releasing a Request for Projects notice Tuesday.
Turkey is looking to speed up its development of a conceptual trainer aircraft, to be designed and built domestically. The new trainer will be specifically designed to train pilots to use new fighters procured through the indigenous TF-X program , with a RFI for this program released last month.
*Asia*

_*Pakistan wants to buy fifteen AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters, gun systems, 1000 Hellfire II missiles and other equipment through apossible FMS . The cost? $952 million. The State Department has green-lit the deal, with the potential sale going to Congress.*_
India will not sign its stalled multi-billion Rafale contract with Dassault until the French company agrees to what the Indian government says was the original pricing structure for the deal. The drawn-out MMRCA programhas seen multiple disputes between the Indian Defense Ministry and Dassault, with the Indians threatening to walk away from the deal in January. Although this may be simply bluster, the Russian vultures are circling, ready to supply the SU-30 fighter if the Rafale deal falls through.
China and South Korea are to hold arms control talks this week , an interesting development given the recent tension over US plans to base THAAD interceptors in South Korea to complement the existing jointly-operated Aegis/Patriot systems.
According to Japanese media , Indonesia is contemplating buying the US-2 amphibious plane, the same design India is currently in talks with Japan over.
Airbus is reportedly in talks with six Indian defense contractors in an effort to find a domestic company to reply to a $2 billion naval helicopter RFI, with Indian procurement regulation allowing only an Indian company to respond.


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## Green Angel

Sukhoi's are better than Rafale ..........


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## Abingdonboy

*PM Narendra Modi says progress possible in Rafale fighter jet talks *

_PARIS: India and France should be able to make progress in talks over the purchase of Rafale fighter jets, Prime Minister Narendra Modi said in an interview with French newspaper Le Figaro. 
"The question of the Rafales is still in discussion and we should be able to make progress on mutually acceptable bases," Modi told the newspaper ahead his arrival on Thursday in France for a state visit. 
Talks on the proposed purchase of 126 Rafale planes have been under way for more than three years, trying to resolve differences over pricing and local assembly. _

From:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...campaign=cppst

Reactions: Like Like:
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## PARIKRAMA

*NO BREAKTHROUGH YET ON RAFALE DEAL - INDIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY*

*India remains undecided on whether to go ahead with its planned purchase of France’s Rafale fighter jets, Foreign Secretary Subrahmanyam Jaishankar told reporters on Wednesday.*

“As far as I understand it, discussions between the French company, our defense ministry and HAL Company continue… The sides are discussing the technical aspects of the matter. We are differentiating between state visits and a detailed discussion of defense contracts,” the diplomat said.
No Breakthrough Yet on Rafale Deal - Indian Foreign Ministry / Sputnik International


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## Bang Galore

Abingdonboy said:


> *PM Narendra Modi says progress possible in Rafale fighter jet talks *
> 
> _PARIS: India and France should be able to make progress in talks over the purchase of Rafale fighter jets, Prime Minister Narendra Modi said in an interview with French newspaper Le Figaro.
> "The question of the Rafales is still in discussion and we should be able to make progress on mutually acceptable bases," Modi told the newspaper ahead his arrival on Thursday in France for a state visit.
> Talks on the proposed purchase of 126 Rafale planes have been under way for more than three years, trying to resolve differences over pricing and local assembly. _
> 
> From:
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...campaign=cppst



If the French want this deal done, this is their best chance. Make an offer that cannot be refused. Last chance to sweeten the deal.


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## Hindustani78

Hindustani78 said:


> With Rafale deal stuck, Germany says Eurofighter option ready | Zee News
> Last Updated: Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - 15:20
> 
> New Delhi: Days ahead of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit there, Germany on Wednesday said European military consortium EADS was still ready to provide India Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft, asserting that the jets are "good" both in terms of quality and price.
> 
> 
> India has been in negotiations for last three years with France's Dassault Aviation for procurement of 126 Rafale jets, which is being considered world's biggest military aircraft deal.
> 
> German Ambassador Michael Steiner said the European Aeronautic Defence and Space (EADS) was ready with its proposal to offer Eurofighter to India.
> 
> "The consortium stands ready with their proposal. The governments of the four nations are supporting this proposal because they are convinced it is a good one both in terms of quality of the product and price," he told reporters.
> 
> At the same time, he said the consortium will continue to respect the Indian procurement procedures and it was for India to decide what kind of aircraft it wants to procure.
> 
> Prime Minister Modi and German Chancellor Angela Merkel will jointly inaugurate the Hannover Messe fair on April 12. India is the partner country for the famous fair this year.
> 
> Rafale was selected by India from among five bidders in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder. The Rafale and European Eurofighter Typhoon were the only two defence majors left in the race for 126 plane-deal after years of tests on technical and other aspects.
> 
> Modi is also visiting France but it is not clear whether the Rafale deal would figure during his talks with French President Francois Hollande.
> 
> The deal with Dassault Aviation has been stuck for the last three years on cost and guarantee clause. Indian government officials say that while the deal was initially for about Rs 42,000 crore, French are seeking a higher price now.
> 
> Under the guarantee clause Rafale has to provide guarantee for the planes that would be manufactured by state-owned HAL.




Germany still ready to offer Eurofighter aircraft to India | Zee News
Last Updated: Thursday, April 9, 2015 - 10:12

New Delhi: Germany has said that the four-nation military consortium European Aeronautic Defence and Space (EADS) is still ready to provide the Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft to India, asserting that the jets are good both in terms of quality and price.


The Rafale deal has been stuck on cost and technology transfer issues.

German Ambassador to India, Michael Steiner , said the consortium stands ready with their proposal and the governments of the four nations are supporting the proposal.

*After the merger of British, German, French and Spanish entities, EADS came into being in 2000 as Europe's largest aerospace company.*

In 2012, India had selected France's Dassault Aviation from among five bidders for buying 126 Rafale fighter jets as it was the lowest bidder.

Dassault Aviation and EDFS are the only two defence firms left in the race for the 126 aircraft Indian deal after years of tests on various aspects.


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## PARIKRAMA

*Terrain-following Tested on Single-seat Rafale*
(Source: French air force; issued April 9, 2015)
(Issued in French; unofficial translation by Defense-Arospace.com)

The French air force’s _Centre d’Expériences Aériennes Militaires (CEAM)_ military aircraft test center, and the French navy’s _détachement du centre d’expérimentations pratiques de l’aéronautique navale (Det CEPA)_ naval aviation flight trials detachment are working together on a project to develop terrain-following capabilities for Rafale’s single-seat variants.

An innovative feature

*Integrated into the aircraft, this flight control mode mode allows it to fly at high speed and low level over the ground or sea. In complete safety and under all weather conditions, the aircraft can operate at very low level by day and night thanks to its sophisticated advanced autopilot, which protects the crew by preventing the aircraft from impacting natural (terrain features) and artificial (antennas, bridges, cables, etc) obstacles. The crew is thus free to concentrate on the prosecution of its mission, on surviving in a hostile environment and on achieving its operational objectives. *

Pilots testing this capability seek, above all, to ensure the safety of single-seat aircraft and their pilots during use of the terrain-following mode. The current trials aim to provide Air Force and Navy staffs a training profile offering lower costs, and including flight operations as well as simulator flights. However, this feature is currently only authorized on two-seat Rafales, whose crews include both pilot and navigator.

A twin ambition for the Air Force

These trials allow the air force to evaluate the feasibility of allowing combat squadrons equipped with the single-seat Rafale variant, and based at Saint-Dizier and Mont-de-Marsan, to carry out fire support missions as well as aerial interceptions in all weather conditions.

*The goal is two-fold. First, perform “show of force” demonstrations by flying high-speed, low-level passes over enemy forces, a tactic that is routinely used by Mirage 2000D Rafale two-seat fighters during foreign missions. *

*A terrain-following capability will also allow air-defense pilots to intercept unidentified aircraft flying at very low altitude, even through low cloud cover, in complete safety. *

-ends-
Terrain-following Tested on Single-seat Rafale

@halloweene @sancho @Abingdonboy

If i remember correctly, Rafale already had terrain hugging capability as claimed by former Air force folks when they compared Rafale with Su30 MKI. Is this further development of that or its a new capability all together? i am a bit confused here about terrain hugging word usage here.. or is the "autopilot" feature the new addition ?

*Original Article*

*Le suivi de terrain expérimenté sur Rafale monoplace*

Updated: 04/09/2015 11:17
The center of military air experiments (EHIC) and detachment of practical experimentation center of naval aviation (Det CEPA) work together on a common project: Field Monitoring seater Rafale.

*An innovative feature*




*Integrated with the fighter, this function allows to fly at high speed near the ground or the sea. Safe and all weather conditions, the aircraft flies by day or night with its autopilot developed . This protects the airmen natural terrain and artificial obstacles (antennas, bridges, cables, etc). The crew can engage cognitive resources for its survival in a hostile environment and the achievement of its business objectives. The experimenters seek above all to ensure the safety of aircraft pilots cars that will use the terrain-following. This experiment aims to provide staffs of the Air Force and the Navy a training repository at lower cost, as well as operating the simulator flights.However, this feature is currently only permitted two-seater Rafale, carrying a pilot and a navigator.*

*A double ambition for the Air Force*

*This experiment allows the Air Force to evaluate the possibility to achieve by squadrons equipped Gust cars (in Saint-Dizier and Mont-de-Marsan) fire support missions as well as aerial interceptions all types of weather. The goal is twofold. First, perform shows of strength (strength demonstrations), running low and rapid transition over enemy troops, aerial maneuvers regularly conducted operations by Mirage 2000D and Rafale. On the other hand, this field tracking capability provides an air defense pilots the opportunity to achieve the interception of an unknown aircraft flying at very low altitude, and this safely, even through the clouds*

Le suivi de terrain expérimenté sur Rafale monoplace


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## Hindustani78

Updated: April 10, 2015 01:09 IST
*Modi hopeful of progress on Rafale, Areva n-deal*


Suhasini Haidar


Dinakar Peri






India is looking to buy 126 Rafale fighter aircraft. Photo: Special arrangement

Prime Minister Narendra Modi has sparked fresh speculation over a possible breakthrough on the Rafale aircraft deal and *an agreement on the Jaitapur nuclear power plant in Maharashtra *during his visit to France, with indications that negotiations are heading in a positive manner.

In an interview to the French newspaper _Le Figaro_, Mr. Modi said, *“France is one of our closest strategic partners, and significant opportunities for cooperation exist with India, particularly in the fields of nuclear energy and defence.” *Asked specifically about the possibility of an announcement on buying 126 Rafale fighter aircraft, Mr. Modi’s written answer was, *“We should be able to move forward on a mutually acceptable basis.”*

Earlier this week, French President Francois Hollande denied any announcement on the Rafale deal “before the visit of Prime Minister Modi” and he did not want the visit to be *“put in the context of a contract,”* fuelling speculation about some movement during the visit.

*Stuck since 2012*
The $20-billion deal for 126 Rafale fighter aircraft has been stuck since 2012 over price and delivery guarantees. “Especially given that negotiations have dragged on for more than three years, it is important to give them some direction now,” the former Ambassador to France Rakesh Sood told _The Hindu_.

Mr. Modi reached Paris on Thursday ahead of his bilateral talks with Mr. Hollande. He is expected to engage with French CEOs from infrastructure companies, including energy and defence firms. Any movement on the two big outstanding *issues of the Rafale negotiations or on nuclear negotiations for the Jaitapur plant *would be a positive signal for other investors, officials said ahead of the talks, while not confirming there would be any.

Mr. Modi, who will meet Mr. Hollande during bilateral negotiations, followed by a ride down the Seine, is expected to try and iron out some of the larger issues on both sets of negotiations during the day. *“Unlike the Indo-U.S. nuclear deal, the Indo-France deal is stuck at a technical-commercial stage, and not a political one, so it will be harder for the leaders to announce a breakthrough similar to the one during the Obama visit,”* said Mr. Sood, who was formerly India’s nuclear envoy.

On the nuclear issue, Mr. Modi said he was hopeful “to see a result soon”. Negotiations between Areva and Nuclear Power Corporation of India Ltd. have been stuck over pricing and technical difficulties. Another hurdle has emerged after *Areva’s reactor (European Pressure Reactors or EPRs) developed an “anomaly” during tests for its 1650 MWe reactor in Flamanville, which is similar to the one planned in Jaitapur. *According to a release from the nuclear regulatory authority ASN on April 7, * “Initial measurements confirmed the presence of this anomaly in the reactor vessel head and reactor vessel bottom head of the Flamanville EPR.”* Safety concerns over the *Jaitapur reactor had earlier held up land acquisition in the area, and nuclear activists and the BJP’s ally Shiv Sena continue to oppose the French project in Maharashtra.* Asked if a deal was still possible in Paris, an official told _The Hindu_ they were* “burning the midnight oil.”*


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## The_Sidewinder

hoping for some good news today


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## The_Sidewinder

Livefist
@ livefist 22m
FLASH:Top sources confirm: India &
France to announce brand-new deal
for 3 squadrons (60-63 aircraft) of
@Dassault_OnAir Rafale for the IAF.

Big news coming in the evenig.


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## drunken-monke

What I think is, this is a stop gap and for 126 fighters the negotiations will continue with having impact of this deal on the MMRCA..


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## Hindustani78

Reuters.

India negotiating to buy 63 Rafale jets from France: Le Monde| Reuters

*India is negotiating to buy 63 Rafale fighter jets made in France for 7.2 billion euros ($7.65 billion) with a view to reaching a deal during the Indian prime minister's visit to Paris starting on Friday, French newspaper Le Monde reported.*

*"The discussions went on through the night and were still going on this morning," Le Monde quoted a source close to the matter as saying.*

*"The idea is to announce the contract during Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Paris on Friday or Saturday," the source added.*

Neither Dassault Aviation, which builds the Rafale or the French president's office could immediately be reached for comment. The French defense ministry declined to comment.

Indian officials confirmed that a major push was on to reach an agreement to buy Rafales during Modi’s visit to Paris, with one holding out the prospect of an announcement – if not a final deal – if India is able to secure more favorable terms.

Earlier, the Hindustan Times and one widely-watched defense blogger said that a direct government-to-government contract to buy a smaller number of planes than the 126 originally envisaged under a tender deal one possible outcome because of problems linked to localizing production of most of the planes in India.

Blogger Nitin Ghokale, a veteran defense correspondent, said the talks focused on buying between 60 and 63 combat jets.

*"It’s correct that discussions are under way, but a contract announcement is a bit of hype," said one Indian official who requested anonymity. "If things work out and terms are more attractive than earlier, then maybe an understanding."*

Modi is in France for a two-day state visit. There is due to be a signing ceremony for various contracts late Friday and a joint news conference with President Francois Hollande at 1800 (12.00 noon EDT).

Talks on the proposed Rafale purchase have been under way for more than three years, trying to resolve differences over pricing and local assembly.

The deal was initially worth $12 billion but is now widely estimated to have jumped to $20 billion, primarily because of the implications of building some of the jets in India.

(Reporting by Leigh Thomas, John Irish in Paris and Frank Jack Daniel, Rupam Jain Nair and Douglas Busvine in New Delhi; Editing by James Regan)


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## Hindustani78

IAF pushes for direct purchase of 2 Rafale fighter squadrons


*HT Correspondent, Hindustan Times, New Delhi*
|
Updated: Apr 10, 2015 16:15 IST

Faced with force depletion and rapidly evolving security scenario in Asia, the Indian Air Force is pushing for direct purchase of two squadrons of French Rafale fighters to scale up its dwindling combat capabilities, defence sources said.

The issue has gained momentum with Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Friday starting his two-day trip to France where he is expected to discuss the Rafale fighter deal during meetings with the French leadership including President Francois Hollande.

India requires 42 fighter squadrons urgently to beef up its defence capabilties and protect the borders. But presently IAF has only 34 squadrons with about 18 planes each with frontline Su-30 MKI fighters facing servicibility issues and flying of vintage MiG 21 fighters reduced to 60 per cent.

HT reported on Friday that New Delhi is seriously considering the strategic purchase of up to 40 Rafale fighters through the government-to-government route to boost the IAF's combat readiness.

India had selected Rafale fighters over Typhoons in January, 2012 after the French firm Dassault Aviation emerged as the lowest bidder.

The 2012 deal envisages 18 ready-to-fly Rafales supplied to the IAF by this year, and the remaining 108 to be manufactured under licence in India.

However, the two sides haven't been able to seal a deal yet.

The decision to buy two squadrons directly reflects the urgency to boost the IAF's combat potential, the sources said, adding the IAF's traditional air superiority over Pakistan may be severely diluted if new fighters are not inducted at the earliest.

14 of the IAF squadrons are equipped with vintage MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighter planes.

In an exclusive interview to HT last September, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha had said it was critical to keep the Rafale fighter deal on schedule as the IAF could not afford any more delays.

The IAF had told a Parliamentary panel last year that a "collusive threat" from China and Pakistan would be difficult to tackle, making a strong case for beefing up its force levels.

India is years behind the Chinese military with the Communist neighbour currently outnumbering the country's combat power by a 3:1 ratio. India's hopes to bridge the gap in the next 15-20 years depend on availability of funds.

Raha said at Aero India-2015 in Bengaluru that India had no Plan B if negotiations with Dassault Aviation to buy Rafale fighters collapsed.

He underlined the IAF needed to induct medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) at the earliest to make up for the drawdown in its fighter fleet.

"We are not working on Plan B. We only have Plan A (Rafale)," Raha said.

He ruled out the possibility of buying more Sukhoi-30 fighters if talks with Dassault Aviation failed. He said the Su-30 and the MMRCA complemented each other but could not replace each other.


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## Hindustani78

The_Sidewinder said:


> hoping for some good news today



*New Delhi:* Prime Minister Narendra Modi is likely to sign a major defence deal with France in order to boost India's military capabilities and infrastructure. *A new deal to buy 60 Rafale fighter jets* *is likely to be announced in a joint press conference by Modi and French President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday. *

Three squadrons of about 60 jets are to be bought in a new contract between the Government of India and Government of France. The deal is worth over $4 billion and it overrides the MMRCA process in which Dasault Rafale was lowest bidder for 126 aircraft. The final signing of the MMRCA deal is yet to take place as India and France have some differences over the final amount.

India is keen to finish the acquisition before 2017 when a large number of old MiG squadrons will have to be phased out.





The deal is worth over $4 billion and it overrides the MMRCA process in which Dasault Rafale was lowest bidder for 126 aircraft.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Corsair

All built in France. Excellent !


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## Donatello

halloweene said:


> Lets be frnk. full inspection of AL 31 is about 500 hours. M88-2 is around 4000 hours (and in fact is not needed due to ontime diagnosis system)



Are you sure the full inspection time for M88 is at 4000hours of service? Because that is practically the whole life cycle of it.


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## PARIKRAMA

*India, France Discuss Purchase of 63 Rafales*
By Pierre Tran12:32 p.m. EDT April 10, 2015
PARIS — French and Indian officials are negotiating an off-the-shelf order worth €7.2 billion (US $7.6 billion) for 63 Rafale fighter jets to equip three Indian Air Force squadrons, during a visit by the Indian prime minister, daily Le Monde reported Friday.

"The discussions lasted all night, they are continuing this morning," a source close to the talks said, Le Monde reported. "The idea is to be able to announce this contract during the visit to Paris of Narendra Modi, the Indian prime minister, on Friday or Saturday."

Modi is on a two-day state visit.

The Elysée President's Office and Dassault were not immediately available for comment, and the French Ministry of Defense declined comment.

While the number of aircraft has yet to be finalized, the order would be for Rafales built in France rather than assembled in India with technology transfer. This is available under an option agreed with Dassault in 2012 for an off-the-shelf purchase of 63 "supplementary" units, the afternoon daily reported.

Negotiations have been conducted for three years for a purchase of 126 Rafales, of which 18 would be built in France and 108 in India. If agreed, this off-the-shelf deal would speed up acquisition for the Indian Air Force, the report said, while talks on the larger buy continued.

"The Rafale question is still under discussion and we should be able to move ahead on a mutually agreed basis," Modi told Le Figaro, the daily owned by the Dassault family.

India, France Discuss Purchase of 63 Rafales



*Livefist* @livefist · now10 seconds ago
'Keeping IAF's crucial requirements in mind, have asked France to supply us 36 Rafale fighters ASAP.' ~ PM @NarendraModi



*Livefist* @livefist · 3m3 minutes ago
So @Dassault_OnAir, which was to build 18 Rafales under the MMRCA, now gets to build at least 36. Boost for French jobs. RIP MMRCA?



*Livefist* @livefist · 7m7 minutes ago
Squadron and a half?







*Livefist*‏@livefist
Livefist retweeted EconomicTimes

Aha.

Livefist added,

*EconomicTimes @EconomicTimes*
*India’s purchase of 36 Rafale jets is separate from ongoing talks on bigger order - defence official (Reuters India)*

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## #hydra#

Donatello said:


> Are you sure the full inspection time for M88 is at 4000hours of service? Because that is practically the whole life cycle of it.


French people will tell any thing to sell there product,long time back somebody claimed that rafale is capable of doing 11+g pull


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## Donatello

#hydra# said:


> French people will tell any thing to sell there product,long time back somebody claimed that rafale is capable of doing 11+g pull



Indians weren't far behind on putting claims on their SU30MKIs


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## #hydra#

Donatello said:


> Indians weren't far behind on putting claims on their SU30MKIs


And u too witj ur jf17


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## sancho

Interesting development, the important question however is, did Dassault agreed to the pending contract issues of the licence production. If not, it's a huge mistake of the government to commit itself to the Rafale already, since it leaves them in the weaker position when Dassault knows that the MoD can't back out anymore.

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## Stephen Cohen

sancho said:


> Interesting development, the important question however is, did Dassault agreed to the pending contract issues of the licence production. If not, it's a huge mistake of the government to commit itself to the Rafale already, since it leaves them in the weaker position when Dassault knows that the MoD can't back out anymore.



WELCOME BACK and Congratulations to ALL of us 

I think we can LINK the signature on N power plants with MMRCA 
Both signed together in a few months


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## kirankumar299

I would prefer MMRCA with 63 made in France and the rest in India with full TOT.....It is a mutual benefit.....production line in France will be busy...and this will give enough time for HAL to setup production line and absorb the TOT.


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## SuperSubrayan

HUGE Breaking News once again !!! 108 Rafale to be built in India as per MMRCA plan  NDTV !!!!

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## sancho

Stephen Cohen said:


> WELCOME BACK and Congratulations to ALL of us
> 
> I think we can LINK the signature on N power plants with MMRCA
> Both signed together in a few months



Still on vacation till sunday, just dropped by for a few minutes to check the news from the visit. But there are far too little details to celebrate already.


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## PARIKRAMA

*

Vishnu Som* @VishnuNDTV · 20m20 minutes ago
Now hearing that it's going to be 36 Rafales imported plus 108 to be built in India for a tot of 144. But this keeps changing !


*Vishnu Som* @VishnuNDTV · 28m28 minutes ago
Sources: MMRCA not scrapped. 108 Rafale to be built in India. 36 imported from France. 144 total. Negotiations continue.



*Vishnu Som* @VishnuNDTV · 1h1 hour ago
Think this HAS to be an interim purchase of Rafale jets.


*Vishnu Som* @VishnuNDTV · 1h1 hour ago
No question and answer session. 36 jets won't solve the Air Forces problems.


*Vishnu Som* @VishnuNDTV · 1h1 hour ago
This is not a deal. It is a statement of intent to buy 36 Rafale jets. A fairly modest deal once it happens.


*Vishnu Som* @VishnuNDTV · 1h1 hour ago
Rafale deal - 36 Rafale jets in flyaway condition.


*Vishnu Som* @VishnuNDTV · 1h1 hour ago
Rafale deal - Hollande says Modi will talk about the Rafale deal next

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## Corsair

#hydra# said:


> French people will tell any thing to sell there product,long time back somebody claimed that rafale is capable of doing 11+g pull


@#hydra#
Rafale is capable of pulling 11 G in clean configuration.
The Rafale side stick controller has two limits : one "elastic stop" and one "mechanical stop".

If the pilot pulls to the elastic stop, the computer will limit the load factor to 9 G. But in case of emergency, it can pull the stick to the mechanical stop (he must provide much more pulling force for that, at least 40 kg if it's like the Mirage 2000), and then the flight control computer will allow the elevons to deflect more than normally, allowing the load factor to climb up to 11 G;

It works the same for the Mirage 2000, in which the mechanical stop is at 12 G. I even heard that a Greek pilot momentarily pulled nearly 14 G in emergency. He suffered some injuries and the plane had some minor damages.

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## PARIKRAMA

[URL='https://twitter.com/thaparvishal']

*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 2m2 minutes ago
To sum up: India importing 36 Rafale fighters to commit itself to the larger deal for 126 Rafales, and possibly 63 follow-ons



*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 59s59 seconds ago
6/n Import of 36 Rafale justified on ground of "critical operational necessity". Quick delivery likely in time frame compatible with op reqt



*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 4m4 minutes ago
5/n India expresses commitment to "separate process underway" for acquiring 126 Rafale fighters, while ordering import of 36 as a precursor



*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 5m5 minutes ago
4/n France to deliver 36 fly-away Rafales in the same configuration as the one offered in the IAF tender for 126 fighters, with same weapons



*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 7m7 minutes ago
3/n Imported Rafale fighters to cost less than price quoted by Dassault in tender for 126 fighters, govt to govt deal to facilitate import



*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 9m9 minutes ago
2/n India commits itself to the French Rafale,sets speculation to rest:Import of 36 Rafale fighters recursor to larger deal for 126 fighters



*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 11m11 minutes ago
India's decision to import 36 Rafale fighters in fly away condition a reassurance to France that its committed to tender for 126 Rafales 1/n[/URL]

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## UgandaToRawanda

*MEA CONFIRMS 108 RAFALE TO BE PRODUCED IN INDIA + 36 FLYAWAY FROM FRANCE = 144 RAFALE.*


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## Capt.Popeye

Hmmmm, @MilSpec ; now the trickle of info is increasing. So it looks like:
1. MMRCA is still on.
2. TOT and local manufacture is still on the cards.
3. the initial tranche of 36 aircraft is intended to fast-track the acquisition process.
4. Allowing more time to sort out any remaining hiccups.
5. This initial lot may even be used to control/amortise any cost-differentials arising out of setting up a new line in India.

Just my initial take on the _straws in the wind_, so to speak.......

Which leads to an interesting thought that has just sparked in my mind; will this have any connection to the choice of aircraft for IAC 2 eventually? This bit of speculation is predicated on some hypotheses and facts; viz. :
1. IAC 2 is heading to be a CATOBAR design.
2. IN has already studied the Rafale M and is quite impressed by the design, however has not physically evaluated it.
3. An add-on order for IN to be manufactured locally, adds meat to the 'make in India' concept considering that the TOT will get reasonably absorbed by then.

All said and done; the second part is speculative; arising out of the crystallisation of the first.

But let us see, what happens; apart from attempting to thinking ahead of the curve right now.

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## MilSpec

Capt.Popeye said:


> Hmmmm, @MilSpec ; now the trickle of info is increasing. So it looks like:
> 1. MMRCA is still on.
> 2. TOT and local manufacture is still on the cards.
> 3. the initial tranche of 36 aircraft is intended to fast-track the acquisition process.
> 4. Allowing more time to sort out any remaining hiccups.
> 5. This initial lot may even be used to control/amortise any cost-differentials arising out of setting up a new line in India.
> 
> Just my initial take on the _straws in the wind_, so to speak.......
> 
> Which leads to an interesting thought that has just sparked in my mind; will this have any connection to the choice of aircraft for IAC 2 eventually? This bit of speculation is predicated on some hypotheses and facts; viz. :
> 1. IAC 2 is heading to be a CATOBAR design.
> 2. IN has already studied the Rafale M and is quite impressed by the design, however has not physically evaluated it.
> 3. An add-on order for IN to be manufactured locally, adds meat to the 'make in India' concept considering that the TOT will get reasonably absorbed by then.
> 
> All said and done; the second part is speculative; arising out of the crystallisation of the first.
> 
> But let us see, what happens; apart from attempting to thinking ahead of the curve right now.



dada,
I had speculated about two years ago that DB will need twice the number of flyaway rafales to justify the business case of the amount of ToT demanded,

MMRCA deal was never dead, the mahan journalists/hacks have to resort to sensationalism but since last two years, HAL and DB both are already planning the plant layout, and material flow.

New DM's statements are nothing but pressure tactics for Capital equipment procurement's.

Apart from that, I had estimated rafales being around 150 units, it might get bumped up just like the MKI's.
Not to mention, HAL is gearing up for a mega upgrade project for the MKI's too, with an Irbis AESA, uprated engine and air frame modifications.

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## Hindustani78

*India to announce its intention to acquire 36 Rafale aircraft rapidly*
*Paris, 10th April 2015 -* Dassault Aviation, which is the Indian Air Force supplier for more than 60 years, is honored of the repeated trust of the Indian Government and welcomes its intention to finalize the acquisition of *36 Rafale aircraft at conditions that will allow to meet rapidly the security needs of India.*

*Dassault Aviation is grateful to the Indian Authorities to be given the opportunity to pursue and extend their partnership and underlines its pride in contributing to Indian defense and sovereignty.*

*“Just as we are delivering the first upgraded Mirage 2000, I am delighted by the decision of the Indian Authorities which gives a new impetus to our partnership for the next decades and comes within the scope of the strategic relationship gathering France and India”, declared Eric Trappier, Chairman and CEO of Dassault Aviation.*

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## Capt.Popeye

MilSpec said:


> dada,
> I had speculated about two years ago that DB will need twice the number of flyaway rafales to justify the business case of the amount of ToT demanded,
> 
> MMRCA deal was never dead, the mahan journalists/hacks have to resort to sensationalism but since last two years, HAL and DB both are already planning the plant layout, and material flow.
> 
> New DM's statements are nothing but pressure tactics for Capital equipment procurement's.
> 
> Apart from that, I had estimated rafales being around 150 units, it might get bumped up just like the MKI's.
> Not to mention, HAL is gearing up for a mega upgrade project for the MKI's too.




That is what I was getting at; in my _"musings"_ above.... 
Seriously now......Anyway the Math gets more viable when the numbers increase; which makes the IN option worth thinking about. While that is speculative; it kind of juxtaposes well with some facts. If this deal gets inked; then numbers of about 200 can get considered in tranches/phases.


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## Storm Force

That's it then

36 Rafale in fly away condition direct from france between NOW & END OF 2017

and then ink deal for license production of 108 more rafales in india as planned from 2019-2026

144 rafale FIGHTERS MMRCA nice FLEET AND HUGE UPLIFT IN CAPABILITY

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## SuperSubrayan

Modi orders 36 'ready-to-fly' French-made Rafale fighter jets
French Defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian, Indian PM Narendra Modi, French President Francois Hollande, Paris Mayor Anne Hidalgo and Foreign Affairs minister Laurent Fabius smile as they talk on a "bateau mouche" boat on the Seine River in Paris. -AFP
PARIS: Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi said on Friday he had ordered 36 “ready-to-fly” French-made Rafale fighter jets to modernise his country's ageing warplane fleet as neighbouring states upgraded their military hardware.

Indian military officials have warned that their air force risks a major capability gap opening up with China and Pakistan without new western warplanes or if local defence contractors cannot produce what the military needs in a timely manner.

“I have asked President (Francois Hollande) to supply 36 ready-to-fly Rafale jets to India,” Modi said at a news conference on the first day of a state visit to France.

“Our civil servants will discuss (terms and conditions) in more detail and continue the negotiations,” he said, speaking in Hindi through an interpreter.

The deal, another boost for French manufacturer Dassault Aviation after it sealed its long-awaited first export deal to Egypt in February, could be worth about 4 billion euros.

Know more: India, France say will press ahead with Rafale deal

President Hollande said Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian would travel to India soon to finalise the deal. India and France have already been in exclusive negotiations for three years. The value of a larger 126-plane deal being negotiated is estimated to have grown to about $20 billion from an initial $12 billion, primarily because of an Indian requirement that 108 of the jets be built in the country.

A French defence ministry source said the deal announced on Friday was separate from the original negotiations and came about after new Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar indicated the country's urgent requirements. “We informed them we were ready to respond to their operational needs separate from the tender under discussion for three years,” the source said.

India's military has said it needs to start replacing its ageing jet fleet from 2017.

“There was a real operational need because India needs combat jets because a certain number of countries have been equipping themselves, so there was a desire to speed up the process,” Dassault Chief Executive Eric Trappier told Europe 1 radio.

The country already has previous ties with Dassault, having bought Mirage 2000 fighter jets. In March, Dassault delivered two modernised Mirage jets to India.

Analysts say Dassault's deal with Egypt may have helped break the logjam in negotiations with other customers, since they are now on notice that if they want to have Rafales they may have to wait for them.

Once persona non grata in Europe, Indian Premier Narendra Modi was welcomed with open arms in Paris on Friday as he kicks off his maiden visit to the continent to woo investors to his fast-growing economy.

'Jobs for the young'

“It's not a coincidence that France is the first country that I am visiting as part of my first official trip to Europe,” Modi told French daily Le Figaro before his arrival, pointing to cooperation in a number of sectors such as space, nuclear energy and defence.

“Just like in the nuclear sector, defence cooperation is a key part of our traditional ties with France,” he added.

French nuclear giant Areva is still awaiting the go-ahead to install six reactors in India's western state of Maharashtra, five years after a bilateral civil nuclear accord.

A French diplomatic source said agreements would be signed in the “renewable energy, sustainable cities, transport and cultural sectors”.

After a two-day whistle-stop tour that will take him from northern to southern France — with a short breather to take in the Paris sights on a river boat — Modi will jet off to Germany. He will end his trip further afield in Canada, home to a large Indian diaspora.


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## Hindustani78

Storm Force said:


> That's it then
> 
> 36 Rafale in fly away condition direct from france between NOW & END OF 2017
> 
> and then ink deal for license production of 108 more rafales in india as planned from 2019-2026
> 
> 144 rafale FIGHTERS MMRCA nice FLEET AND HUGE UPLIFT IN CAPABILITY



And even we should try to see from French side. how many Rafales are being produced in one year ?

India's Rafale jet deal separate from talks on bigger order: source| Reuters
(Reuters) - India's purchase of 36 French-made Rafale jets unveiled on Friday *is not part of a larger order still being negotiated between the two countries, a French defense ministry source said.*

The purchase of the Dassault Aviation planes, announced by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi during a visit to Paris, remains *"separate from the tender under discussion for three years," *the source said.

The value of the larger 126-plance deal being negotiated is estimated to have grown to about $20 billion from an initial $12 billion, primarily *because of an Indian requirement that 108 of the jets be built in the country.*

(Reporting By John Irish; editing by Laurence Frost)


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## PARIKRAMA

*Livefist*‏@livefist
Full text of the section in the India-France joint statement on India's 36 flyaway Rafales proposal.








*Livefist* @livefist · 8h8 hours ago
Effectively, the total number of Rafales being negotiated now is 144: 36 (Flyaway) + 108 (Original number to be license-built by HAL.

*India to buy 36 Rafale jets in fly away shape, HAL to build 108 after technology transfer*

Paris: Marking a breakthrough in the protracted talks in the French Rafale jet deal, Prime Minister Narendra Moditoday announced that India will purchase 36 of these fighter planes that are ready to fly, citing critical operational requirement of the IAF.

The announcement was made by Modi at a joint news conference with French President Francois Hollange after their summit talks at Elysee palace.




Prime Minister Narendra Modi with the French President Francois Hollande, in Paris on 10 April 2015. Image courtesy PIB

India and France were locked in negotiations for three years over the purchase of 126 Rafale fighter jets valued at $12 billion but has been bogged down over cost and Dassault Aviation's reluctance to stand guarantee for 108 planes to be made by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited(HAL).

"Keeping in mind critical operational necessity of fighter jets in India, I have talked to him(Hollande) and requested for 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible under government-to-government deal," Modi said.

An agreement on proceeding forward on the stalled nuclear project in Jaitapur in Maharashtra was among the 17 pacts signed after the talks between Modi and Hollande.

The Jaitapur project, where French company Areva is to set up six nuclear reactors with total power generation capacity of about 10,000 MW, is stuck for long because of differences over the cost of electricity to be generated.

The agreement between India's Larsen and Toubro and France's AREVA is aimed at cost reduction by increasing localisation, to improve financial viability of Jaitapur project.

Another pact related to Pre-engineering agreementsbetween NPCIL and AREVA in connection with studies that is intended to bring clarity on all technical aspects of the plant so that all parties(AREVA, ALSTOM and NPCIL) can firm up their price and optimise all provisions for risks still included at this stage in the costs of the project.

It will also enable transfer of technology and development of indigenous nuclear energy industry in India.

France also informed India of its decision to implement a scheme for expedited 48 hours visa issuance for Indian tourists.

"There is no such sphere where India and France are not cooperating. France is among India's most valued friend," Modi said.

France also announced an investment of €2 billion (about $1 billion) in India as Modi invited French
companies to pump in money in technology in the fastest growing economy.

France will invest 2 billion euros in India, Hollande announced at a CEO forum here.

Inviting French investors, Modi said, "There is no bigger market than India. It is also the fastest growing economy since the last six months. Various rating agencies like World Bank and Moodys have said in one voice that India is the fastest growing nation.

"It is rare to find a country with a market, with the government determined on development and demographic dividend. Investors are usually worried about the security of intellectual property (IP). Only democracies like India can guarantee that," he said.

Addressing a CEOs forum, Hollande said: "We are ready to allocate through French companies 2 billion euros to support India's sustainable development."

He said France will partner India in Urban development of infrastructure like railways and defence and nuclear sector.

Noting that President Hollande has supported 'Make in India' initiative especially in defence sector, Modi said at the joint news conference that the two countries have decided that the Rafale jets will be provided to India in modified terms and conditions.

"Today, we have taken defence cooperation between India and France to new levels."

"I had very good talks with President Hollande. Our defence sector ties are old. In defence equipment and
technology. France has always been a reliable supplier. From fighter jets to submarines, our ties have been foremost," he said.

Modi said that in the area of Nuclear power, France has been a major partner with India.

"I am happy that in Jaitapur, we have made progress on setting up 6 nuclear power projects. Both have signed an agreement on reducing the cost of power production and more technical support and further study.

Especially, Areva and L&T have signed an agreement for making forgings in India. I feel this agreement is very significant and will be a perfect example of 'Make in India' and will take India to a new place in the area of advance technology." he said.

On other issues, Modi noted that there is a challenging atmosphere in the world and that there is turbulence in different areas due to which all are affected. "In this changing world, there are a number of uncertain questions on tability."

"Terrorism is spreading and taking new shapes. This challenge is being tackled in different forms and to tackle that an extensive strategy is to be evolved. Be it Paris or Mumbai, India and France have understood each other," Modi said.

The prime minister said it is the responsibility of every nation to lend support in the fight against terror and not allow terror groups to take shelter and punish the terrorists as soon as possible.

"India and France similarly views these challenges and that is why we will further strengthen our security ties," he said.

PTI

India to buy 36 Rafale jets in fly away shape, HAL to build 108 after technology transfer - Firstpost

*

Explained: Taking off*
Deviating from the ongoing negotiations with French defence major Dassault Aviation, India on Friday directly asked France to supply 36 Rafale fighter jets instead of 18 in fly-away condition. While the announcement during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s ongoing visit to France set the ball rolling for IAF, which has been in desperate need of fighter jets, ambiguity continues over the legalities and the number of aircraft in the multi-billion deal. _Pranav Kulkarni_ explains

_What does this announcement mean?_
Going by the statement, India and France have now agreed to sign an inter-governmental agreement for supply of aircraft on terms that would be “better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation” as part of the separate process underway. This indicates that India and France will now be dealing with the contract on a government-to-government (G-to-G) basis. _*Prima facie, it also marks a success for India which has been negotiating hard for lower price and maintenance besides other aspects of the contract.*_

_How is this different from the original proposal?_
The original proposal involved buying 18 aircraft from Dassault in fly-away condition while the rest 108 were to be manufactured in India under transfer of technology by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). *According to the statement, the number of aircraft to be purchased in fly-away condition has increased to 36. The cost of the 36 aircraft is now pegged at nearly 4 billion Euros. What has also changed is that instead of negotiating with Dassault, the project is now a G-to-G deal.*

_What happens to the role of HAL?_
As per the defence procurement procedure, every contract costing more than Rs 300 crore has an offset obligation of 30 per cent. This means that the manufacturer has to dispose of contracts worth 30 per cent of the cost of the contract to Indian industry. In case of MMRCA, the government had increased offset obligation to 50 per cent which benefitted the Indian industry. Going just by the statement, ambiguity continues over the offset obligation. The role of HAL is also not clear. The contract, in its earlier form, fitted well in the government’s Make in India slogan but now it remains to be seen as to how the government involves Indian industry in the deal.

_When will the aircraft be delivered?_
The government has clearly told France that the aircraft will have to be delivered in “time frame compatible with the operational requirement of IAF”. India has also asked the French government to deliver “the same configuration” that has been tested and approved by IAF. Ideally, as per the original terms, the first 18 aircraft were to be delivered within three years of signing the contract. With changed numbers, the timeframe may change.

_How critical is the contract for IAF?_
Very important. The IAF first expressed interest in the MMRCA in 2001. The Request for Proposal was issued in 2007 and from among six contenders-the Russian MiG-35, American F/A-18 Super Hornet, Swedish Saab Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon and French Dassault Rafale, the final two contenders — Rafale and Typhoon were shortlisted and Rafale was declared lowest bidder in January 2012. From stipulated strength of 42, the IAF is now down to 34 operational squadrons. While a few of its legacy aircraft such as Mirage 2000, Jaguars have been upgraded, others need immediate replacement. The Rafales will thus fill the gap between the yet-to-be inducted LCA Tejas and the frontline Sukhoi fighter jets.

_But why the delay? Is 36 sufficient to fill the number of squadrons?_
No, 36 will be sufficient to create just two squadrons, whereas 126 were to create nearly six squadrons. The clarity on the further agreement will unveil how the IAF plans to meet its operational squadron strength. Meanwhile, Reuters quoted Modi as saying in France that, “the civil servants will discuss the contract in more detail and continue negotiations.” The delay in the contract in the recent past was primarily due to disagreement between Indian Ministry of Defence and Dassault over the guarantee of aircraft manufactured by HAL. While Dassault was reluctant to take responsibility of aircraft manufactured by HAL, India wanted Dassault to take guarantee of the 108 aircraft to be manufactured by HAL. In February, the two sides clarified that all differences have been sorted out.

Explained: Taking off | The Indian Express

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## Capt.Popeye

PARIKRAMA said:


> _How is this different from the original proposal?_
> The original proposal involved buying 18 aircraft from Dassault in fly-away condition while the rest 108 were to be manufactured in India under transfer of technology by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). *According to the statement, the number of aircraft to be purchased in fly-away condition has increased to 36. The cost of the 36 aircraft is now pegged at nearly 4 billion Euros. What has also changed is that instead of negotiating with Dassault, the project is now a G-to-G deal.*
> 
> 
> Explained: Taking off | The Indian Express




*The bold part holds something very interesting that we should not overlook.... the deal is pegged to the Euro; which is a falling currency vis-a-vis the INR*.

When L1 was declared, the Euro was about 1:100 INR; now the Euro is 1:68 INR and thereabouts. So should I be complaining about the delay is a question. That explains why Dassault was attempting to pad-up costs using other methods.

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## IND151

Setting aside the norms of New Delhi’s procurement rulebooks, India and France marked Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris on Friday with an announcement that the Indian Air Force (IAF) would buy 36 Rafale fighters in fly-away condition. These will equip two IAF squadrons with 18 aircraft each.

“I have spoken to President Hollande about buying 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition”, said Mr Modi, addressing a joint press conference in Paris. He said the terms of the tender would be modified accordingly.

*The announcement is silent about the plan to build the Rafale in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a central part of the tender*. So far, this multi-billion dollar procurement, which was conceived as a springboard for the modernization of India’s aerospace industry, will only benefit that of France.

Friday’s announcement underlines the continuing failure by India and France to take to a logical conclusion the IAF’s August 2007 tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), of which 18 were to be supplied fully-built and 108 built in India by HAL. After touting its handling of the tender as an example of probity and professional skill, New Delhi has inexplicably altered the terms of the tender, switching over to a single-vendor, government-to-government negotiation.

Since 2007, the IAF has evaluated and test-flown Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper; Saab’s Gripen NG; RAC-MiG’s MiG-35; Eurofighter GmbH’s Typhoon and Dassault’s Rafale. In April 2011, the first four vendors were told their aircraft had not met IAF requirements. On January 31, 2012, Dassault was informed that its bid was the cheapest.

Since then, Dassault’s clarification of numerous grey areas in its financial bid led Indian negotiators to conclude that Dassault’s bid was significantly costlier than it had first appeared.

With Dassault now awarded an order for 36 Rafale fighters under arbitrarily altered rules, rival vendors could legitimately object, particularly Eurofighter GmbH, which can credibly argue that it would supply 36 fully built fighters cheaper than Dassault.

Dassault has only 180 Rafales on order from the French military, with Egypt expressing interest in buying another 24. By contrast, six nations have ordered 571 Typhoons, allowing Eurofighter to amortise development and infrastructure costs over thrice as many aircraft.

The government has stayed with the Rafale, though IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, clarified in Bengaluru in February that any fighter would do. "It is important we have an MMRCA. I would not say Rafale, but we need to have it [MMRCA] in the quickest possible time," Raha said.

Air Vice Marshal (Retired) Nirdosh Tyagi, who oversaw the MMRCA contest, says it is hard to justify buying only a small number of Rafales. It makes little sense to have an air force that already has seven different fighters --- Sukhoi-30MKI, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21, Mirage 2000, Jaguar and Tejas LCA --- create spare part stocks, depots and maintenance infrastructure for just two squadrons of yet another fighter type.

“Thirty-six fighters are neither here nor there. The MMRCA was processed from the start as a 126-fighter contract, with an option for 63 more. Indigenous manufacture through technology transfer is crucial”, Tyagi says.

If India contracts for 36 Rafale fighters, Dassault will be in a commanding position to negotiate favourable terms for the remaining 90 fighters. If India does not agree to Dassault’s terms, it would be left with two squadrons of Rafales, with no indigenization.

Military analyst Bharat Karnad points out that India’s Rafale purchase is essential for Dassault, whose lack of orders has raised questions about its very existence. “What is India getting in return, as the French laugh their way to the bank? HAL’s production plans are in limbo; “Make in India” is uncertain; and we are buying the most expensive plane on offer. Why?” Karnad asks.

Karnad estimates that, with missiles and payload included, each Rafale would cost between $150-200 million. India, therefore, would end up paying $5.4 to $7.2 billion for 36 Rafales, about twice the cost of the indigenized Sukhoi-30MKI.


It remains unclear whether the defence ministry’s “cost negotiation committee” (CNC), which has been deadlocked in negotiations with Dassault for three years now, will continue negotiations for the remaining 90 fighters. The CNC had made it clear that Dassault would have to improve its earlier bid for supply-cum-licence manufacture. Now, the government’s decision to buy 36 fully built Rafale significantly undermines the CNC.

Broadsword: India, France announce deal for 36 fully-built Rafale fighters



Capt.Popeye said:


> *The bold part holds something very interesting that we should not overlook.... the deal is pegged to the Euro; which is a falling currency vis-a-vis the INR*.
> 
> When L1 was declared, the Euro was about 1:100 INR; now the Euro is 1:68 INR and thereabouts. So should I be complaining about the delay is a question. That explains why Dassault was attempting to pad-up costs using other methods.



Thanks for Info


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reuters) - India's purchase of 36 French-made Rafale jets unveiled on Friday *is not part of a larger order still being negotiated between the two countries, a French defense ministry source said.*

The purchase of the Dassault Aviation planes, announced by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi during a visit to Paris, remains *"separate from the tender under discussion for three years," *the source said.

India's Rafale jet deal separate from talks on bigger order: source| Reuters

This part is important.

Reuters) - India's purchase of 36 French-made Rafale jets unveiled on Friday *is not part of a larger order still being negotiated between the two countries, a French defense ministry source said.*


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## halloweene

IND151 said:


> Setting aside the norms of New Delhi’s procurement rulebooks, India and France marked Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris on Friday with an announcement that the Indian Air Force (IAF) would buy 36 Rafale fighters in fly-away condition. These will equip two IAF squadrons with 18 aircraft each.
> 
> “I have spoken to President Hollande about buying 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition”, said Mr Modi, addressing a joint press conference in Paris. He said the terms of the tender would be modified accordingly.
> 
> *The announcement is silent about the plan to build the Rafale in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a central part of the tender*. So far, this multi-billion dollar procurement, which was conceived as a springboard for the modernization of India’s aerospace industry, will only benefit that of France.
> 
> Friday’s announcement underlines the continuing failure by India and France to take to a logical conclusion the IAF’s August 2007 tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), of which 18 were to be supplied fully-built and 108 built in India by HAL. After touting its handling of the tender as an example of probity and professional skill, New Delhi has inexplicably altered the terms of the tender, switching over to a single-vendor, government-to-government negotiation.
> 
> Since 2007, the IAF has evaluated and test-flown Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper; Saab’s Gripen NG; RAC-MiG’s MiG-35; Eurofighter GmbH’s Typhoon and Dassault’s Rafale. In April 2011, the first four vendors were told their aircraft had not met IAF requirements. On January 31, 2012, Dassault was informed that its bid was the cheapest.
> 
> Since then, Dassault’s clarification of numerous grey areas in its financial bid led Indian negotiators to conclude that Dassault’s bid was significantly costlier than it had first appeared.
> 
> With Dassault now awarded an order for 36 Rafale fighters under arbitrarily altered rules, rival vendors could legitimately object, particularly Eurofighter GmbH, which can credibly argue that it would supply 36 fully built fighters cheaper than Dassault.
> 
> Dassault has only 180 Rafales on order from the French military, with Egypt expressing interest in buying another 24. By contrast, six nations have ordered 571 Typhoons, allowing Eurofighter to amortise development and infrastructure costs over thrice as many aircraft.
> 
> The government has stayed with the Rafale, though IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, clarified in Bengaluru in February that any fighter would do. "It is important we have an MMRCA. I would not say Rafale, but we need to have it [MMRCA] in the quickest possible time," Raha said.
> 
> Air Vice Marshal (Retired) Nirdosh Tyagi, who oversaw the MMRCA contest, says it is hard to justify buying only a small number of Rafales. It makes little sense to have an air force that already has seven different fighters --- Sukhoi-30MKI, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21, Mirage 2000, Jaguar and Tejas LCA --- create spare part stocks, depots and maintenance infrastructure for just two squadrons of yet another fighter type.
> 
> “Thirty-six fighters are neither here nor there. The MMRCA was processed from the start as a 126-fighter contract, with an option for 63 more. Indigenous manufacture through technology transfer is crucial”, Tyagi says.
> 
> If India contracts for 36 Rafale fighters, Dassault will be in a commanding position to negotiate favourable terms for the remaining 90 fighters. If India does not agree to Dassault’s terms, it would be left with two squadrons of Rafales, with no indigenization.
> 
> Military analyst Bharat Karnad points out that India’s Rafale purchase is essential for Dassault, whose lack of orders has raised questions about its very existence. “What is India getting in return, as the French laugh their way to the bank? HAL’s production plans are in limbo; “Make in India” is uncertain; and we are buying the most expensive plane on offer. Why?” Karnad asks.
> 
> Karnad estimates that, with missiles and payload included, each Rafale would cost between $150-200 million. India, therefore, would end up paying $5.4 to $7.2 billion for 36 Rafales, about twice the cost of the indigenized Sukhoi-30MKI.
> 
> 
> It remains unclear whether the defence ministry’s “cost negotiation committee” (CNC), which has been deadlocked in negotiations with Dassault for three years now, will continue negotiations for the remaining 90 fighters. The CNC had made it clear that Dassault would have to improve its earlier bid for supply-cum-licence manufacture. Now, the government’s decision to buy 36 fully built Rafale significantly undermines the CNC.
> 
> Broadsword: India, France announce deal for 36 fully-built Rafale fighters
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for Info
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Reuters) - India's purchase of 36 French-made Rafale jets unveiled on Friday *is not part of a larger order still being negotiated between the two countries, a French defense ministry source said.*
> 
> The purchase of the Dassault Aviation planes, announced by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi during a visit to Paris, remains *"separate from the tender under discussion for three years," *the source said.
> 
> India's Rafale jet deal separate from talks on bigger order: source| Reuters
> 
> This part is important.
> 
> Reuters) - India's purchase of 36 French-made Rafale jets unveiled on Friday *is not part of a larger order still being negotiated between the two countries, a French defense ministry source said.*


Let me guess : HAL industrila base isn't able to absorb ToT without huge cost? Maybe offsets could be injected in HAL?


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## PARIKRAMA

*Why Outright Purchase of 36 Rafale's Makes Sense*
Apr 10, 2015
By Vijainder K Thakur







On Friday April 11, 2015 Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced that India would purchase from France 36 Rafale fighters in ready to fly condition to meet the nation's immediate operational requirements. At a joint news conference with French President Francois Hollande after their summit talks at Elysee palace, Modi said, “Keeping in mind critical operational necessity of fighter jets in India, I have talked to him (Hollande) and requested for 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible under government-to-government deal.”
The announcement must have warmed hearts of the IAF leadership, ever edgy over the inexorable depletion of force levels caused by obsolescence of older MiG-21 variants. Going by Twitter reactions, the announcement left defense affair followers in good cheer for the upcoming weekend. However, there has been a surprising amount of criticism of the deal in the press. Most of it is coming from journalists who earlier wrongly reported that the Rafale deal is set to be scrapped, or armchair analysts who had opined that the deal was wasteful since India already has Su-30MKI, an equally capable aircraft. (Incidentally, a purchase cannot be wasteful per se. You make it wasteful by not utilizing it. IAF is not known to waste its assets, howsoever limited that may be in their capability.)
Having read through the criticism this morning, I realized I couldn't agree with even one point being made by naysayers. Egged by the barrage of criticism here is my point-by-point rebuttal to all naysayers.

_*The Su-30 MKI is as (more, according to the Russians) capable as the Rafale in WVR (within visual range), so where is the need for Rafale *_
Not true! The Su-30MKI is more maneuverable in WVR, only at low speeds. The Rafale outmaneuvers the Su-30MKI when energy levels are high. In a typical air-to-air engagement, It takes more than 40-secs of max g maneuvering for speeds to bleed off to an extent where the Su-30MKI begins to gain advantage and most WVR engagements end before 40-secs. The Rafale has an edge over the Su-30MKI in other important ways. Sensor fusion makes the aircraft a single pilot platform reducing costs, and gives it an edge in heavily contested airspace. In simpler words, threat assessment and engagement is automated to a greater degree.
*The IAF will be introducing another type when it already has too many types, making maintenance more difficult and expensive. *
No! the IAF will be replacing two existing types with the Rafale - older variant MiG-21s and MiG-27s. So there will still be a net type reduction. It reflects a more cautious approach to type reduction.

*Once we buy 36 aircraft off the shelf, Dassault will not be amenable to price reduction for any follow-up deal involving local manufacture.*

The Hindustan Times reported on April 10, 2015 that "New Delhi is not averse to Dassault floating a joint venture with a private company to build more Rafales in India. Similar offers of building fighters in India will also be made to other MMRCA competitors like the Saab Grippen, Boeing F-18, EADS Eurofighter, Russian MiG-35 and Lockheed Martin F-16 so that the IAF dominates the evolving security scenario in Asia." The implication is that the IAF would buy any fighter aircraft being manufactured in India! Here I would like to add that the HT has always been on the mark with its rather low key MMRCA reporting. Dassault has tied up with Reliance to fulfill its Rafale offset obligation and the joint venture (JV) may go on to manufacture the aircraft in India coveting a follow-up order. However, the Rafale-Reliance JV would have to compete against any similar JVs set up by MMRCA vendors who grab the opportunity to re-enter the arena -. Boeing, Lockheed, SAAB, EADS and MiG Corp!

*MMRCA was pitched as a 126 fighter contract with option for 63 more. Indian government's backtracking would make foreign vendors wary of future Indian RFPs. *
Defense procurement plans - short as well as long terms - have to be continuously tuned to prevailing economic realities and operational imperatives. Yes, the MMRCA was projected as a bigger deal (Mother of all defense deals according to the press!) but negotiations have stretched over three years with no resolution in sight. Can the government afford to continue ignoring operational imperatives? "Keeping in mind critical operational necessity of fighter jets in India," said our PM to the world. I am sure world governments will understand what the PM said, even if some journalists don't.

*Indigenous manufacture by HAL with ToT was to be a critical ingredient of the MMRCA procurement.*
It was, but the reality is HAL is already stretched to a point where timelines and quality are repeatedly slipping. Worst still, HAL has not been able to adequately leverage ToT from past production deals: MiG-21, Jaguar, Su-30MKI. It's often overlooked that ToT comes at a heavy additional cost, over and above the cost of aircraft, weapon systems and spares. Inability to leverage ToT results in criminal waste of national resources.

_*The deal has made the Modi government's 'Make in India' policy just a slogan!*_

We have covered this already. MoD continues to strive for local manufacture. Outright purchase of 36 Rafale's is a stop gap measure mandated by operational imperatives, a measure to temporarily bypass intractable differences over the cost and quality of Rafales to be manufactured by HAL.

_*A 36 aircraft order will not facilitate indigenisation of components, resulting in higher costs and less than optimum utilization of the fleet.*_
Absence of indigenisation and local manufacture does not reduce the potency of a fighter aircraft. The IAF's most successful fighter - Mirage 2000 - is an example. India ordered 49 Mirage 2000 in fly away condition from Dassault in 1985, and in 2004, placed a follow-up order for 10 Mirage-2000H variant of the aircraft featuring improved avionics. The Mirage gave an excellent account of itself during the 1998 Kargil war despite lack of indigenization, and is expected to continue in service well beyond 2030 following mid-life upgrade!

Rafale - Mirage-2000 Parallels
The Rafale deal may well follow the Mirage-2000 acquisition pattern, unless the French offer to produce the aircraft locally at a cost more competitive than vendors from the US, Germany, Sweden and Russia. It's interesting to note that India and France have historically never entered into a ToT / local production fighter deal. Ouragan (Toofani), Mystere, and Mirage 2000 were all outright purchases. (Jaguar - an Anglo-French joint venture was locally produced by HAL, but the deal was negotiated between HAL and British Aerospace.) It is also interesting to note that the MMRCA acquisition was triggered by the IAF's desire to augment its Mirage-2000 fleet!

Why Outright Purchase of 36 Rafale's Makes Sense | MyIndMakers
*Vijainder K Thakur*

A former IAF Jaguar pilot, Vijainder K Thakur took premature retirement after 20 years of service to pursue software development. His passion for programming took him to the US, but he chose to return after 8 years. He now free lances as military analyst, writing for IDR and Geopolitics. He tweets at @vkthakur











*India finally breaks ice over Rafale deal, great decision, says Manohar Parrikar*
*India Today*


Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Saturday lauded India's decision to purchase 36 ready-to-fly French made Rafale fighter jets and said that it is a "great decision" which will see their induction into the Indian Air Force in a span of just two years.

Reacting to the development, Parrikar said, "India has finally broken the ice over the deal which has been pending for the last 17 years." It is a great deal both on terms and condition, he added.

Parrikar said that the jets will now be inducted into the IAF in a span of two years.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who is on a three-nation tour to Europe and Canada, placed the order after meeting French President Francois Hollande on Friday.

The deal, which could be worth about 4 billion euros, is aimed at modernising India's ageing warplane fleet that needs urgent upgradation. The jets are manufactured by French firm Dassault Aviation.

Indian security experts believe the induction of the jets into IAF will further boost India's capabilities.

"I have asked President (Francois Hollande) to supply 36 ready-to-fly Rafale jets to India," Modi said at a news conference on the first day of his state visit to France, adding, "Our civil servants will discuss (terms and conditions) in more detail and continue the negotiations."

French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian is expected to travel to India soon to finalise the deal.

According to a French defence ministry source, Friday's deal was separate from the original negotiations and came about after Indian defence minister indicated the country's urgent requirements.

"We informed them we were ready to respond to their operational needs separate from the tender under discussion for three years," the source said.

India wants to start replacing its ageing jet fleet from 2017.

"There was a real operational need because India needs combat jets because a certain number of countries have been equipping themselves, so there was a desire to speed up the process," Dassault Chief Executive Eric Trappier told Europe 1 radio.

India and France already have strong defence ties, particularly in the field of military hardware supplies.

India had earlier purchased Mirage 2000 fighter jets from Dassault. In March, the company had again delivered two modernised Mirage jets to India.
India finally breaks ice over Rafale deal, great decision, says Manohar Parrikar : India, News - India Today


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## Hindustani78

Rafale deal will bring oxygen to Indian Air Force: Manohar ​Parrikar | Zee News
Last Updated: Saturday, April 11, 2015 - 15:45

Panaji: A day after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced that India will buy 36 Rafale jets from France in fly-away condition soon, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Saturday said that the country has finally broken the ice over the deal which had been pending for the last 17 years.

The deal struck with France will bring some relief to the Indian Air Force into which they will be inducted within two years, Parrikar said.

He further hailed the deal to buy Rafale jets from France as a “great decision taken on the terms and conditions that are better”.

*"Indian Air Force will get minimum oxygen (relief) it required with this deal...In fact we have not purchased any major new generation aircraft in (last) 17 years.”*

*“Procuring 36 planes for two squadrons is an extremely positive decision which was needed," Parrikar told a news agency here.*

Modi had yesterday said in Paris that India will buy 36 Rafale fighter jets in flyaway condition from France at the earliest by* "keeping in view the critical operational necessity of fighter aircraft in India."*

*"The RFP (Request for Proposal) procedure for procuring these aircraft had been dragging on for several years. This was started in 2000 and still it was not getting completed because of a lot of confusion so I am very happy that the PM has taken the initiative,"* Parrikar said.

He said the* fighter jets will be inducted into IAF within a span of two years, adding the ice has been finally broken over the deal.*

Parrikar did not give any reasons *why it will take up to a maximum of two years for inducting these much-needed fighters into IAF.*

Experts feel that time may be needed for further price negotiations and refitting the aircraft in tune with Indian requirements. While the government-to-government negotiations may have ended, the forces may have to fine-tune the deal with the manufacturers Dassault.

Parrikar said after the initial purchase of 36 Rafale aircraft, the country will have more such planes under "Make in India initiative or Rafale kind of mechanism."

The minister said* Rafale is the fourth generation aircraft which will add up to the old generation fighter planes like MiG21, MiG27 and Su30 which are currently with India.*

*"We have old generation aircraft which are upgraded and with limited life. In fact, MiG 21 is at the fag end of its life," he added. The Defence Minister said Rafale's induction into the IAF may take two years "as 'fly away' does not mean we will get them tomorrow".*

*"It has to be designed as per India's need," Parrikar said, adding negotiations will be held over their pricing, which are currently valued at Rs 700 crore.*

*"We need some lighter type of single-engine kind of aircraft, but we also need deep penetration double-engine aircraft which has latest technology and other equipment which can give India a decisive edge over its traditional enemies," the minister said.*

He said the purchase of 36 aircraft is for filling in the immediate gap.

Noting that Light Combat aircraft Tejas will undergo final flight testing next month, he said, 'Make In India' is a long-term solution for India's Air Force strength.

*"We have to push the development of Tejas and we have to also ensure that we could build some high grade aircraft," *Parrikar said.

The Indian Air Force had shortlisted Rafale for induction into its frontline combat fleet, replacing the ageing Soviet-era MiG-21 squadron but the deal did not materialise for long.

The original deal, with an estimated cost of USD 20 billion, was for delivery of 126 fighters, including 18 off-the-shelf by Dassault, and 108 to be manufactured in India under licensed production by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) over time, with 50 percent offset obligations to benefit the domestic aerospace industry.

The IAF opted for the twin-engined Rafale in January 2012 over Eurofighter Typhoon of the European consortium EADS Cassidian after outsmarting F-16 of American Lockheed Martin, F/A-18 of Boeing, MiG-35 of Russian United Aircraft Corp and Swedish SAAB's Gripen in a global competitive bid floated in August 2007.

(With Agency inputs)

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## Abingdonboy



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## Storm Force

What a beautfiful addition to our fleet

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## holysaturn

20billion dollars worth foreign made BMW's is not going to make this country safe, France today is not the independant superpower it was and the mistral incident proves it.
Lol at Vijainder K Thakur's(not surprising he is a IAF stooge of foreign goods) comments that lack of local components does not make an aircraft less effective, it is surprising that a serviceman like him is so ignorant of the fact that operational effectiveness of the fleet is more important than individual planes effectiveness and for that you need local support in terms of spares,modifications,battle damage repair,scheduled repair which can only come from TOT.
If a war arrives IAF will eat into war reserves,beg the govt to buy spares from France again at exorbitant prices and yet cannibalize aircraft to keep most part of the fleet flying.This isnt new for India but the IAF never learns or never wants to learn,such is the influence of lobbyists and vested interests.
IAF being the forefront of aviation in the country has failed to develop local capability vis-a-vis the Navy, they don't want to because a lot of IAF officers are leading a pompous life and wanto continue the tradition.People may call me an arm chair analyst or a key board warrior but it doesn't take more than common sense to look into their nonsensical attitude towards air-power.

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## migflug

*PMO India : Report Card*
India to buy 36 Rafale jets in fly away shape, HAL to build another 108

Marking a breakthrough in the protracted talks in the French Rafale jet deal, Prime Minister Narendra Modi today announced that India will purchase 36 of these fighter planes that are ready to fly, citing critical operational requirement of the IAF.
The announcement was made by Modi at a joint news conference with French President Francois Hollange after their summit talks at Elysee palace.

http://www.firstpost.com/world/india-to-buy-36-rafale-jets-in-fly-away-shape-hal-to-build-another-108-2192683.html

· 

*Share*

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## Hindustani78

migflug said:


> *PMO India : Report Card*
> India to buy 36 Rafale jets in fly away shape, HAL to build another 108
> 
> Marking a breakthrough in the protracted talks in the French Rafale jet deal, Prime Minister Narendra Modi today announced that India will purchase 36 of these fighter planes that are ready to fly, citing critical operational requirement of the IAF.
> The announcement was made by Modi at a joint news conference with French President Francois Hollange after their summit talks at Elysee palace.
> 
> http://www.firstpost.com/world/india-to-buy-36-rafale-jets-in-fly-away-shape-hal-to-build-another-108-2192683.html
> 
> ·
> 
> *Share*



Arent we getting these 36 fighter planes in 2 years span ? HAL do have industrial and production facilities.


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## Agent_47




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## PARIKRAMA

Few Articles on the topic

*RAFALE STORY FAR FROM OVER; GOVT TO KEEP HAL IN THE LOOP*







_by Dr. Anantha Krishnan M_
*BANGALORE*: Thirty-six Rafale jets for the plane-deprived Indian Air Force (IAF) from Dassault Aviation! That's buzz all around since last night after Prime Minister Narendra Modi sprang yet another surprise. Finally, the much-hyped mother of all deals jettisoned out of the red-tape-trap, with even the number 36 surprising many.

Plane pundits are already out with many theories, with some even wondering the ‘logic' behind going for such a small order, which is just enough to fill only two Squadrons.

But, those who saw the Rafale script from close quarters confirm to OneIndia that the story is far from over. Any more surprises on this front? "Can't predict," they say.

*HAL will be kept in the loop*

Sources confirm that the Modi government is in no mood to push Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) away, despite a strong private lobby wanting it to be out of the Rafale frame.

"Any additional orders for Rafales will have to be via the Make in India route and it will be HAL who will be manufacturing the same. The private sector too will be roped in subsequently," an official in the Ministry of Defence (MoD) said.

When asked about the fate of various Price Negotiation Committees (PNCs) looking into the 126 MMRCA deal, the official said: "Some clarity will emerge in the next one month."

The official said that the government was ‘aware of the implications' it would face following its decision to take the direct purchase route.

"It was expected that many would see it as a stand away from the Make in India policy. The numbers (36) should be seen as a pointer towards the government's thought process. Private industries and HAL will play a significant role in the new scheme of things set to unfold," the official said.

When asked whether RFP process in which Dassault Aviation has emerged as an L-1 stands nullified now, the official refused to comment.

*Fate of RFP a closed chapter: Matheswaran*

Reacting to the deal, Air Marshal M Matheswaran (Retd), former Deputy Chief of the Integrated Defence Staff (Policy, Planning and Development), IAF and currently an Advisor to HAL, told OneIndia the government's was keen to find a quick solution.

"The PNCs are good if they find a logical solution. In my personal opinion the RFP is a closed chapter now. I am sure the government will take a fresh call. All the future moves will be linked to Make in India, ToT (Transfer of Technology), production standards, delivery schedules and HAL's role," says Matheswaran. He had played a significant role when the IAF decided to go for the MMRCAs.

"The fate of the RFP (for the 126 Rafales as per the original tender now estimated around $20 billion) is now in the hands of the government. Plugging the gap was the key. The government could go in for any aircraft now which can fit into the Make in India plan," says the former IAF official, now a leading think-tank on military matters.

*Govt got some breathing space now*

When asked about the allegations that ‘HAL will not be in a position to roll out quality Rafales,' Matheswaran said that the premier aerospace company has been delivering different types of aircraft over the years.

"The vendor has no business to raise the issue at the end of the negotiation. Yes, I am for a good private eco system coming up for the benefit of aviation in India," Matheswaran said.

He said the decision to buy 36 Rafales in a fly-away was purely to strengthen the strategic partnership with the France. ‘It's a G-to-G decision and we have had the Mirages-2000s coming in the same format 30 years back," he added.

He said the government has got some breathing space now with the decision to go in for 36 fighters. "There's some room to move around. The freedom to take new decisions," Matheswaran added. He said that the Dassault has the capability to deliver all the 36 Rafales to IAF in the next two years.

*HAL's Bangalore Complex warms up to Rafale*

HAL insiders say that the Company has gone some distance in handling a new fighter plane and associated technologies. HAL's famed Bangalore Complex, which has manufactured many flying platforms in the last seven decades, has already warmed up to the Rafales.

"We have spent lot of time in the last five years. Much before the Make in India concept came, we were prepared to handle a new platform. It is now certain that the IAF will go for more Rafales. We have held series of consultations with Dassault and many of our engineers have gone to their facilities has well," an official said.

When asked about the built-quality concerns, the official said, "It's unfair to rake up a scenario before we reach there. There could have been instances of quality concerns in the past, but Bangalore Complex's recent track record in delivering Hawks needs to be factored in."

OneIndia has confirmed that HAL Chairman T Suvarna Raju is among the delegates accompanying Modi during the current Paris trip.

_(The writer is a seasoned aerospace and defence journalist in India. He is the Consultant Editor (Defence) with OneIndia. He tweets __@writetake__)_

_Rafale story far from over; Govt to keep HAL in the loop - Oneindia_


*RAFALE FIGHTER JET DEAL: WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR INDIA?*
_



_

Prime Minister Narendra Modi, left, is greeted by French President Francois Hollande before a meeting at the Elysee Palace, in Paris, France, Friday, as part of a European tour for Modi (Source: AP photo)

During Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France this week, India asked France to supply 36 Rafale fighter jets in “fly-away” condition “as quickly as possible”. This is under a government-to-government deal, unlike the tender currently being negotiated by the Ministry of Defence with Dassault, Rafale’s manufacturer.

For that tender, Rafale had earlier been chosen as the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF) after a stringent technical evaluation and global tender process which has lasted a decade. That tender proposed the purchase of 18 Rafale aircraft in “fly-away” condition, and 108 to be made operational by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) under a transfer of technology clause.

Subsequently, the deal has been mired in controversies. It has been alleged that Dassault Aviation has refused to transfer technology, increased the price in violation of the original tender, and refused to take charge of timely deliveries for the aircraft produced in India.

The ostensible reason for India starting a separate process, away from the 126 aircraft deal, is to urgently meet the “critical operational necessity” of the IAF. IAF is now down to 34 squadrons from its authorised 42, and successive Air Chiefs have highlighted the necessity of expeditiously acquiring the MMRCA. This is way of rapidly alleviating the IAF’s most immediate concerns, while leaving room for future negotiations.

Dr Iskander Rehman, non-resident Fellow in the South Asia Programme at the Atlantic Council says, “I can only imagine the collective sighs of relief at this announcement, not only amongst the French employees of Dassault, but also within the IAF, which has repeatedly expressed its concern over the steady haemorrhaging of the Indian air fleet. This acquisition couldn’t have been more pressing in nature.”





Prime Minister Narendra Modi, left, with French President Francois Hollande attend a joint press conference at the Elysee Palace, in Paris, France, Friday. (Source: AP photo)

The bold political call taken by the Indian government is also a reflection of the frustration on both sides at how bogged down the deal has got in terms of procedures and pricing negotiations. As it is a government-to-government deal, India should be able to get these aircraft cheaper. The negotiations over price are still on but experts estimate at least a 10% lower price for these 36 aircraft. With limited funds available for capital acquisition in the defence budget, monetary considerations are an important factor in any major Indian procurement.

The announcement, however, doesn’t talk about making Rafale in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a core proposition of the original tender. This multi-billion dollar procurement thus runs contrary to Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s Make in India plan for the defence sector.

This has led to whispers of some other high-end defence technology transfers from France as a quid pro quo for this deal. One such technology being spoken about is the reactor for the Ship Submersible Ballistic Nuclear (SSBN) Submarine; India is currently in the process of making its first indigenous nuclear submarine, the Arihant. A nuclear submarine is seen as the best guarantor for a second strike capability in case of a nuclear conflict because it can stay underwater for longer periods than a diesel submarine, which needs to come to the surface for oxygen intake.

Speculation aside, there are doubts that France will part with such technology. “India badly needs help perfecting its SSBN reactors, but something tells me that that technology is way too sensitive for the French to part with it, even if India tries to strongarm them over the Rafale deal,” a French military analyst told The Indian Express.

Whatever be the case, India seems to have firmly thrown its lot with the Rafale. *Already running a mix of seven different fighter aircraft, it is highly unlikely that India will stop at buying 36 Rafale aircraft which can equip only two squadrons. This should put an end to speculation about another rival MMRCA manufacturer bagging the 126-aircraft deal.* However, Air Vice Marshal (retd) Manmohan Bahadur, Distinguished Fellow at the Centre for Air Power Studies though warns, “Nothing is certain. IAF has worked with only two squadrons of Mirage 2000 and two of Mig-29 earlier.”

The most pressing question that has cropped up after this 36 aircraft government-to-government deal is: what happens to the original tender of 126 Rafale fighters? The best option is for the ongoing negotiations to be completed under the current tender wherein India gets another 126 aircraft from Dassault. If India doesn’t want another 126 Rafale fighters, it would have to go for the option of issuing a new tender process. That is an extremely time-consuming process, with no guarantee that Rafale will again emerge as the winner.

The third option for India would be to go for a follow-up government-to-government deal with France for additional Rafale aircraft. This could include an option for Transfer of Technology to make them in India. AVM Bahadur suggests a way in which the current deal could help the Make in India programme in the defence sector. The Maintenance Transfer of Technology (MTOT) for these 36 Rafale fighters, Air Marshal Bahadur suggests, should go to a private vendor instead of HAL. The DPP (2013 revised) clearly specifies that nomination of DPSUs like HAL for MTOT can be done away with and the contract given to a private vendor.

“We have so far not leveraged the MTOTs. If we give the Rafale MTOT to a private player, positive spin-offs will happen as it will expose that vendor to R&D and modern technology,” AVM Bahadur said.

“It will take another five years for Rafale to go for maintenance, and that is a long enough period for a private player to create the capacity – hangars, jigs, procedures, equipment, trained manpower. Even HAL will have to do this from scratch, which is no different for a private player, and it is better we get the private sector in now,” AVM Bahadur added.

All the experts, however, agree on one thing. It is too early to conclude anything concrete about the 36 fighter procurements unless more details of the deal are made public by the government.

Rafale fighter jet deal: What does it mean for India? | The Indian Express | Page 99

*RAFALE DEAL – NAMO ACTS IN NATIONAL INTEREST, NO TIME FOR SECOND-GUESSING*






The biggest highlight of day one in France of Prime Minister Narendra Modi is the announcement that India will buy 36 Rafale jets from France in fly-away condition soon.

*The announcement comes even as some have attempted to second guess*_* (Subramanian Swamy) the Prime Minister’s decision unmindful of the fact that he was still on f*_*oreign soil.* For long the bipartisan Foreign Policy tradition in India has been to keep domestic disagreement back home with even the Opposition respecting this tradition. It is unfortunate that those closer home have chosen to go public with their disagreement even as the Prime Minister was conducting the nation’s business in France.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar however hailed the decision while exuding confidence that the Rafale jets will be inducted in the Indian Air Force in the coming two years. This is a major breakthrough as the MMRCA deal had been pending since last 17 years.

_*Jagran Post* added that, India and France had been locked in negotiations for three years over the purchase of 126 Rafale fighter jets valued at 12 billion USD. They were unable to seal the deal over cost and Dassault Aviation’s reluctance to stand guarantee for 108 planes to be made by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)._

_Dinakar Peri wrote for The Hindu that,_

_“The major reason for the direct purchase of 36 Rafale jets from France are the fast – depleting fighter strength of the Indian Air Force, ending delays in the Medium Multi – Role Combat Aircraft negotiations and the steep price rise."_

The fighter aircraft strength has fallen drastically to 34 squadrons from the sanctioned 42 and is set to further dip with the phasing out of MiG – 21s and MiG -27s in the next few years. The Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, has flagged the issue on several occasions.”

_Sushant Singh while writing for The Indian Express said that,_

_“The ostensible reason for India starting a separate process, away from the 126 aircraft deal, is to urgently meet the “critical operational necessity” of the IAF. IAF is now down to 34 squadrons from its authorised 42, and successive Air Chiefs have highlighted the necessity of expeditiously acquiring the MMRCA. This is way of rapidly alleviating the IAF’s most immediate concerns, while leaving room for future negotiations.”_

_On this topic China.org reported that,_

_“France’s Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian would travel to India soon to finalise the deal, according to the French president. The contract could be worth 4 billion euros (4.24 billion U.S. dollars), with the price of a Rafale is estimated at 110 million euros without arms.”_

_China.org also added that,_

_“The Rafale, manufactured by French company Dassault Aviation, is a twin-engine delta-wing multi-role jet fighter. Since it was introduced in 2000, it only serves in the French navy. Due to its high price, the French aircraft faces competition from Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet and Gripen NG from Sweden’s Saab.”_

_Manu Pubby wrote for The Times of India about the Rafale deal that,_

_“After a series of twists and turns, a multi-billion dollar deal for new fighter jets for the Air Force has hit the last mile with the NDA government determined to iron out differences and wrap up negotiations with an out-of-the-box solution to end a two-year deadlock. A test of political will to find an innovative approach to ink a contract that was threatening to get out of hand, but one that had significant strategic and geopolitical implications, has been on display in the lead up to Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris, where the Rafale deal has been firmed up along with a memorandum of understanding on joint defence production in India.”_

Vijainder K Thakur wrote on MyIndMakers on the same lines as Mr. Pubby and added that those who say that Su-30MKI is more capable as the Ralae in WVR (within visual range) is not true. He adds that:

_“The Su-30MKI is more maneuverable in WVR, only at low speeds. The Rafale outmaneuvers the Su-30MKI when energy levels are high. In a typical air-to-air engagement, It takes more than 40-secs of max g maneuvering for speeds to bleed off to an extent where the Su-30MKI begins to gain advantage and most WVR engagements end before 40-secs. The Rafale has an edge over the Su-30MKI in other important ways. Sensor fusion makes the aircraft a single pilot platform reducing costs, and gives it an edge in heavily contested airspace. In simpler words, threat assessment and engagement is automated to a greater degree.”_

Rafale deal – NaMo acts in National Interest, no time for second-guessing ~ Indian Defence News

*RAFALE DEAL: CONGRESS SPEAKS IN DIFFERENT VOICES - SLAMS SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY*

*NEW DELHI: *A day after Subramanian Swamy threatened to take legal recourse over the Rafale jet deal, Congress today spoke in different voices on the issue with Amarinder Singh strongly defending the purchase and asking Swamy not to sabotage it, and Digvijay Singh daring the BJP leader to move court.

"This statement (of Swamy threatening to go to court) is obviously for settling scores with the Prime Minister for not being taken into the cabinet," Congress Deputy Leader in the Lok Sabha Amarinder said in a statement, wondering whether Swamy's "personal requirement come before that of the nation?"

*Welcoming the government's decision to buy Rafale fighter jets from France to strengthen capability of Indian Air Force, Amarinder said, "For heaven's sake put your personal agenda aside for a while as this concerns the Defence of the Nation."*

Amarinder's strong defence of the deal came close on the heels of Congress General Secretary Digvijay Singh daring Swamy to move court over the Rafale deal a day after the latter threatened to take legal recourse claiming that there were shortcomings in the fighter aircraft.

"I dare Subramanian Swamy to go to court on Rafale Jet purchase," Singh said in a tweet, a day after Swamy threatened to move court if the government went ahead with the deal. Expressing surprise over India buying 36 'Ready to Fly' Rafale jets from France off the shelf, Singh wondered, "Is this the new Defence Purchase Policy of GOI? Would CAG/CVC please take notice."

Amarinder, who had served in the Army, said purchase of 36 jets to equip two squadrons was crucial for strengthening the IAF, as are the others, which are to follow.

The deal was decided during the Prime Minister current visit to France.

"It is time that we all look to the Defence of the nation, rather than playing politics," Amarinder said, insisting that all three Services require the government's "urgent attention" to make good their requirements.

Amarinder lamented that each year budgetary allocations for the Defence Ministry lapse as the decision making process goes "inactive, once again to the detriment of the nation". Amarinder claimed the country's defence forces were "badly short" of modern and sophisticated equipment and weapons.

"The Chinese air force has a 3:1 superiority over us, and against a minimum requirement of 45 squadrons the IAF has only 32," he said, adding that of these, 32 are MIG-21 jets which were first introduced in 1965 and have outlived their utility.

Amarinder, the former Punjab Chief Minister, claimed that the Armoured Corps has no fresh first line ammunition, the Infantry needs a new rifle, as the INSAS is not liked by the troops as they consider it ineffective.

AICC General Secretary Digvijay Singh also took a dig at the working of the Modi dispensation.

Taking a swipe at the Modi government's slogan of 'Minimum Government, Maximum Governance', he said, "When (the) Prime Minister was buying fighter aircraft in France our Defence Minister was buying fish in Goa! Minimum Government and Maximum Governance."

"When (the) Prime Minister is signing deals abroad Foreign Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj is propagating Modi's future achievements in Vidisha, Madhya Pradesh. Another example of Minimum Government and Maximum Governance", he said.

Amarinder said "for the AK 47, used extensively on the counter infiltration grid, we have to import ammunition as we are not making any in India". Besides, he said, "all major armies of the world use the 155 Howitzer as the standard medium gun".

"The Chinese have a vast submarine fleet and we are yet in the planning stage! What about the state of our defence roads when China has four-lane roads and even railways, right up to our border, we have been waiting for these since 1962!" Amarinder said.

Meanwhile, Congress spokesman Sanjay Jha said in a tweet, "The Rafale purchase is another brazen u-turn by PM Modi. It will help only France get a big sales order. What happened to 'Make in India'?"

Rafale was selected by India from among five bidders in 2012 as it quoted the lowest price.

Rafale Deal: Congress Speaks in Different Voices -The New Indian Express

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## Agent_47

What about the 30% offset clause for this 36 Rafales? @sancho @Abingdonboy @Capt.Popeye


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## PARIKRAMA

*Rafale Proposal Could Speed Deliveries to India*
By Pierre Tran and Vivek Raghuvanshi4:45 p.m. EDT April 11, 2015
 
PARIS and NEW DELHI — India's surprise request to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets in an off-the-shelf order reflects a pragmatic pursuit that shortcuts a lengthy local build program to more swiftly meet Air Force requirements, analysts said.

"I asked [French president Francois Hollande] to supply us with 36 Rafale jet fighter planes, the ready-to-fly models," Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi said April 10 at a joint press conference at the Elysée presidential office, Agence France-Presse reported.

The new deal for 36 will be under a government-to-government contract, the French daily Le Monde reported. Modi announced the plan on the first day of a two-day state visit to France.

That figure of 36 doubles an initial batch of 18 Rafales built in France that prime contractor Dassault Aviation had been due to deliver within India's prospective total order of 126 fighters for $12 billion. The French company has been locked in three years of contract negotiations as New Delhi sought to boost the domestic industrial base with local assembly of 108 units.

Details on price and the total number of Rafales to be bought under the new proposal remain unclear. Indian Ministry of Defence officials were unavailable for comment.

A Reuters report indicated the purchase could be worth about €4 billion (US $4.3 billion).

What this proposal could mean to the talks to buy 126 aircraft is uncertain. Bhim Singh, a retired Indian Air Force wing commander, said the announcement to buy 36 off-the-shelf aircraft instead of 18 could mean renegotiating the entire project.

"France has always been a reliable supplier for India from jet fighters to submarines," Modi said. "We want the terms and conditions to be negotiated on this issue and our civil servants are going to debate these aspects in depth and press ahead with the negotiations."

Hollande said he was "deeply moved" and the partnership between the two countries would shift "into a new gear."

The agreement casts a fresh light on India's approach to arms deals as this purchase will speed up delivery and reflects geopolitical concerns, analysts said.

"This is a good plan as an off-the-shelf purchase bypasses the planned Indian local production and technology transfer, which are taking too long to negotiate," said Hélène Masson, senior research fellow at think tank Fondation de Récherche Stratégique. "Indian industry is not yet ready to start the assembly."

State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) would be the local partner and co-contractor to build the Rafales in India after Dassault had completed delivery of the initial batch built in France.

This is good news for Dassault's production facilities although the company faces the challenge of increasing the output, Masson said.

Dassault can increase Rafale production to a little more than 2.5 units per month compared with the present annual output of 11 - just under one per month - Chairman Eric Trappier said March 11.

France needs export deals for the Rafale as the government plans to cut the annual domestic orders in 2016, so foreign customers are needed to keep the production line open. The family-controlled company in February signed a contract to deliver 24 fighters to Egypt as part of a €5.2 billion (US $5.6 billion) deal also comprising a DCNS FREMM multimission frigate and missiles reported to be from MBDA and Sagem.

Dassault said in a statement it "welcomes [India's] intention to finalize the acquisition of 36 Rafale aircraft at conditions that will allow [it] to meet rapidly the security needs of India."

Dassault is prime contractor, with major partners engine maker Snecma and electronics and radar specialist Thales.

The Indian administration has pushed the "Make in India" policy in a bid to boost domestic industry. But that may be costly and slow, while the regional threat is seen to be rising, an analyst said.

The Indian Air Force is keen to replace its aging fleet of fighters as China is seen as increasingly belligerent, said Robbin Laird of consultancy ICSA, based in Washington and Paris. "There is a challenge in the neighborhood" is an Indian officer's diplomatic way of referring to Beijing.

New Delhi can maintain its independence from China and Russia and maintain its status as a regional power while strengthening links with Paris through the Rafale deal, Laird said. India, which has fought border wars with Pakistan, also sees Islamabad as a local threat.

"The Rafale is a very good aircraft," Laird added. "Dassault has a mature production line and the plane is combat proven. There is no doubt about that."

*With a government-to-government deal, France buys the aircraft from Dassault and sells them to India, with Paris guaranteeing the price, he said. That is faster, simpler and more cost effective as local industry is not ready to build the Rafale in India.*

Efficient local production takes decades to master and that fails to satisfy the pressing needs of the Air Force, Laird said. "This is a bargain price, this opens the door."

An Indian Air Force official said the service would have preferred licensed production of 108 fighters in India.

Rafale Proposal Could Speed Deliveries to India


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## rockstarIN

India to wait 2 yrs for French Rafale jets: Parrikar - Moneycontrol.com


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## Matrixx

Great .....We can see first lot of Rafale within a year


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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> What about the 30% offset clause for this 36 Rafales?



Well, the details as always will come out only after the PMs foreign trip, when the cloud of PR has vanished, we just can hope that at least this time, there will be some substance to the PR show.

From what we can see from the official statements, the PM has approached the French government directly, bypassing Dassault. That means, he wants 36 fighters from the order of the French forces, that's why they can give a cost reduction below of what Dassault asks for new orders, with the downside, that not industrial benefits can come with the order. No ToT, offsets let alone Make in India (it's btw hilarious to see the confusion in the media, the foreign vendors and even government officials itself, about what this PR slogan actually means ).

Then there are the claims of Parrikar, about these 36 being of the same standard IAF evaluated, let alone required, which is not correct, since neither is the IRST (that was evaluated back than) in production today, no are these fighters build to IAFs requirements, but to those of the French Forces. So no IRST, HMS, Litening / Israeli PGM's, or METEOR.
Also interesting the claim about getting them in 2 years, without stating if he means from now or after signing a contract with French government. The French order for 2015 / 16 / 17 is for 11 x Rafales each year, so 33 in total and including naval versions. Also after the Egypt deal, most of these 33 will go to them anyway, so to get the 36, France either have to divert some of the already inducted fighters, or extend the F3+ production into 2018. An increase of Dassaults production rate, is only possible if ADDITIONAL orders comes in, apart of those the French government already made, but that's not the case since the French government is selling of their Rafales at lower costs to reach the exports Dassault couldn't get. So unless the French Government orders replacements right away, there is no reason to increase the production rate. Can't wait to see the details of this "deal" in the next few weeks, but possibly close to the US nuclear deal, that was advertised as big and later turned out to be not much at all.

Then there is the issue of the MMRCA itself, which is in a catastrophic stage at the moment, since there is no one voice and no political influence policy anymore. The DM Parrikar is trying to put pressure on Dassault by bringing up the Russian options, which the IAF publically has to refute and the PM now goes abroad and basically takes away any options from Parrikar to negotiate for more benefits, by "virtually" ordering Rafale while admitting that the negotiations are going on. So wrt the actual competition, we still don't know if Dassault has finally agreed to our demands, which however is doubtful, otherwise they would had announced the full deal now and since we now don't have anything to put pressure, we are in the weakest position since 2012. But at least the PM had his moment. 

Wrt numbers, somebody correct me if I missed it, but there is no official Indian or French figure about the impact of this intend to buy 36 on the MMRCA order right? Only the usual media speculations. It could be anything from...

36 + 126 = 162
36 + 108 = 144
36 + 90 =126 as initially required

Logically, the order of 36 is mainly a cost reduction measure for the Government, since they get a lower price tag from the French Government than from Dassault. Which means they could reduce the MMRCA to 90, to reduce the cost of the total order too, while retaining with the original requirement of 126 fighters. The only question is, if that's legally possible under the terms of the tender and what changes that will bring to the offset / ToT side of the tender.

All in all, a lot of hype for nothing really ground breaking. Neither was an actual deal signed, nor is the increase of just a single squadron a major game changer for IAF, if the production line doesn't offer a faster rate and if the issues of the MMRCA tender still are not solved this is nothing but a distraction, that puts India into disadvantage.

@Abingdonboy

Btw, this 36 fighter deal, would be exactly what I said we could do with the EF partner countries! Getting fighters faster directly from the governments, without the industrial side and at lower costs. The difference is only, that there is just 1 Rafale prodution line running, which limits the amount of fighters that can be bought fast. That's why I said that the EF is the fastest choice.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Agent_47

sancho said:


> Logically, the order of 36 is mainly a cost reduction measure for the Government, since they get a lower price tag from the French Government than from Dassault. *Which means they could reduce the MMRCA to 90*, to reduce the cost of the total order too, while retaining with the original requirement of 126 fighters. The only question is, if that's legally possible under the terms of the tender and what changes that will bring to the offset / ToT side of the tender.


This was my exact thinking.When looking at the future fleet i can't see place for more 'expensive imported medium class fighter' when considering LCA mk2 will be ready on a decent time frame.It will take atleast one month to sign final contract as many clearance for offset etc are needed.

Let us say we sign this contract soon for $4b and next year we sign the remaining contract worth $12b .How can they pay for both from CAPX of that and subsequent FY?
How can we say its good when considering $2b worth of offset obligations are excused ?
What do we gain from this sudden move ? extra 1 sqd of rafale can be operationalized by 2018. Is it worth ? If the sq decline is so bad, ordering one more LCA sqd was the logical move rite?


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## Hindustani78

High-level meeting in Paris on Monday over Rafale sale to India | Zee News
Last Updated: Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 16:30


Paris/New Delhi: French President Francois Hollande would chair a high-level meeting in Paris on Monday to thrash out the finer details of the* nearly USD 5 billion deal for the sale of 36 Rafale jets to India in flyaway conditions.*


French sources said the meeting at the Elysee Palace would be held between *Hollande, his top officials and executives from Dassault Aviation, the manufacturers of the Rafale jets.*

Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who concluded his four-day visit to France today, had asked France to supply 36 Rafale jets in flyaway conditions as soon as possible in view of the critical operational necessity of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The deal would be between the two governments.

*"There was nobody, either from Indian side or the French side, when the two leaders spoke about the Rafale. Everyone would be briefed in detail on Monday about what transpired and discussions would be held on how it can be taken forward,"* sources said.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has said that the *36 Rafale fighter jets would be inducted into the IAF in two years.*

Sources said that *two years is a fair time as a final contract needs to be negotiated and signed while production of planes will also take time.*

*The capacity of the Dassault plant is 36 aircraft per anum* and the Indian version of the aircraft will have to be fine- tuned as per its requirement.

*"The French already have an order from Egypt for 24 Rafale jets which has to be also delivered as soon as possible" *sources said, pointing out that specific timelines will have to be worked out.

One of the options that is being looked at is putting on hold the order for the French military and diverting them to meet India's immediate requirements.

Another issue that will come up for discussion is the pricing and also if the *French government will be providing a tax holiday or some other concession* to *Dassault to bring down the prices of the aircraft for India.*

Modi and Hollande had agreed to conclude an Inter- Governmental Agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway, which is the MMRCA tender.

The delivery would be in time-frame that would be compatible with the operational requirement of IAF and the aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by IAF, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France, a joint statement had said.

PTI


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## IND151

Broadsword: 36 Rafales to join air force in two years, but no clarity on original 126 fighters


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## PARIKRAMA

*Rafale deal will soon be translated into govt. to govt. agreement: MEA*

*ANI | Paris 
April 12, 2015* Last Updated at 02:45 IST

*The Ministry of External Affairs has said the understanding between India and France over the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets will soon be translated into a government to government agreement.*

*"What has been agreed is an understanding and it will be translated into a government to government agreement. For this, the French and the Indian Defence Ministers will sit with their technical officials and their financial people and will work out all the details," MEA official spokesperson Syed Akbaruddin told ANI.

"Now, that there is an agreement in principle, please give some time for the nitty-gritty to be worked out. And once this is worked out by the technical people, these will be certainly made public," he added.*

Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who is presently on a two-day visit to France, had on Friday ordered 36 "ready-to-fly" French-made Rafale fighter jets.

The 36 Rafale jets are expected to be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) within a span of two years

Rafale deal will soon be translated into govt. to govt. agreement: MEA | Business Standard News


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## PARIKRAMA

*Taking The Final Call On What Was Originally Proposed By France On February 20, 2006*


*Chronology Of The M-MRCA Procurement Saga*
* Indian Air Force (IAF) formulates its Air Staff Qualitative Requirement (ASQR) for medium multi-role combat aircraft (M-MRCA) in the late 1990s.
** *Request for Information (RFI) for 126 M-MRCAs, with an option for another 63, issued in late 2001. 

*** Dassault Aviation offers to supply 40 Rafale M-MRCAs to the IAF in a single-source G-to-G deal. The offer is made by Charles Edelstenne, the then CEO of Dassault Aviation, when he calls on the then Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh in New Delhi on February 20, 2006*.* The IAF’s then Deputy Chief of the Air Staff Air Marshal A K Nangalia is also present at this meeting. Edelstenne is part of the entourage of the then visiting French President Jacques Chirac.

***Issuance of a Request for Proposals (RFP) was planned for December 2005. However, the formal 211-page RFP is released only on August 28, 2007. The RFP contains single-stage two-bid system criterion (separate quotes for the technical and for commercial evaluation forming part of the submissions from various concerned OEMs). Bidders are given a time-frame of six months to respond to the RFP by March 2008. The RFP includes a direct industrial offsets obligation of 50%, raised from the original official requirement of 30% as contained in the Ministry of Defence’s (MoD) Defence Procurement Procedures of 2006. The RFP states that the IAF will initially acquire of 86 single-seat and 40 two-seat M-MRCAs, and retain the option to acquire another 63 M-MRCAs at a future date. Of the 126, 12 single-seaters and six tandem-seaters are required to be supplied off-the-shelf in flyaway condition, while the remaining 108 are to be licence-built in India. This will include 74 single-seaters and 34 tandem-seaters, of which 11 will be built from semi-knocked down (SKD) kits, 31 will be built from completely knocked down (CKD) kits, and 66 made from indigenously manufactured kits (IMK).
* By late May 2009, the IAF’sTechnical Evaluation Committee (TEC) concludes itstechnical and staff evaluations of the RFP responses from the six bidders.
***Sequential in-country flight evaluations of all six contenders begin in mid-August 2009 and continue through to May2010.Two teams of IAF test-pilots conduct the flight evaluations at Bengaluru, Leh and Jaisalmer. Besides possessing cold-weather terrain, Leh is a high-altitude location, while Jaisalmer is a desert area where hot winds blow. Planning for the trial schedule began in early 2009, with the IAF test-pilots being trained at the respective bidder’s country of origin to fly the aircraft, under Phase-1. Phase-2 calls for flight-trials in Indian airspace and in Phase-3, the six M-MRCA contenders are run through a series of tests to check the efficacy of their guided-munitions by firing them at firing ranges located within the respective bidder’s country of origin.





*All six flightevaluation reports, duly vetted by theTechnical Oversight Committee (TOC),are completed by mid-July 2010.
** *In April 2011, the IAF shortlists Dassault Aviation’s Rafale and Eurofighter GmbH’s EF-2000 Typhoon.




*** On January 31, 2012, the MoD announces that the Rafale has been selected as the IAF’s new-generation M-MRCA and estimates that contractual negotiations should be completed by October 2012 by the MoD’sCommercial Negotiations Committee (CNC) after receiving approvals from the Competent Financial Authority (CFA).




*** On April 10, 2015, the Govt of India formally requests both the French government and Dassault Aviation to supply on a G-to-G basis 36 Rafales (32 single-seaters and four tandem-seaters) as soon as possible, subject to contract negotiations for these 34 Rafales being successfully concluded within a 90-day period. Concurrently, supplementary contracts will be inked with SNECMA Moteurs for two spare M88 turbofans, with Dassault Aviation for ground-support hardware for first- and second-line MRO, with THALES for a cockpit procedures trainer and a full-flight tactical training simulator, with MBDA for the guided-weapons package, and with Dassault Aviation for a maintenance training simulator.

Eventually, in the fullness of time, the IAF will end up with 189 Rafale M-MRCAs. That's a given. But the negotiations had got stuck over the cost of licenced-production of the 108 units. India was haggling over the labour cost parameters that are graded from 1 to 10. While the Russians had obtained Grade 6 for the Su-30MKI licenced-production programme, the French were asking for 8, while the Indians wanted it to be limited to 7. So, in the end, a compromise was struck under which India would order 36 Rafales off-the-shelf without any offsets of any kind and the French in turn would tone down their stance & come down to 7. Therefore, in nett terms, the French have won and India’s illogical negotiating shortsightedness (from 2012 till now) has been fully exposed. And NaMo too has realised at last that there are clear technological and human resource limits to how far the ‘Make in India’ mantra can be flogged. And this deal for 36 Rafales was conceived entirely by Union Finance Minister Arun Jaitley and was fully endorsed by the PMO. Everyone else was in the dark on this issue. If 153 Rafales can be similarly ordered in successive tranches, then that will be the ideal solution. Because paying an exorbitant price for the so-called licenced-production of Rafales just to keep a few thousand employees of HAL gainfully employed for the next 20 years DOES NOT stand up to logic. Nor does such licenced-produiction lead to self-reliance of any kind anywhere. Far better therefore to utilize the money saved for the Tejas Mk2/LCA (Navy) Mk2 R & D effort, where at least 80% indigenisation can be expected in all domains except for the propulsion system.

TRISHUL: Taking The Final Call On What Was Originally Proposed By France On February 20, 2006


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## Speeder 2

*
Let's see:



The Ministry of External Affairs has said the understanding (only an understanding?)  between India and France over the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets will soon (whenever Indians say 'Will Soon"- it will be 15 years +... )  be translated into a government to government agreement.

"What has been agreed is an understanding and it will be translated into a government to government agreement. For this, the French and the Indian Defence Ministers will sit with their technical officials and their financial people and will work out all the details (great! as if Indians were good at details) ," MEA official spokesperson Syed Akbaruddin told ANI.

"Now, that there is an agreement in principle ( in principle?! ) , please give some time for the nitty-gritty to be worked out ( I saw these words millions of times here from the Indians, few are positive though) . And once this is worked out (oke, think 15 years plus) by the technical people, these will be (what Indians can do without "will"?  ) certainly made public," he added.



Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who is presently on a two-day visit to France, had on Friday ordered 36 "ready-to-fly" French-made Rafale fighter jets.

The 36 Rafale jets are expected to be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) within a span of two years (2 years or 20? it's quite hilarious  )*


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## Matrixx

Speeder 2 said:


> *Let's see:
> 
> 
> 
> The Ministry of External Affairs has said the understanding (only an understanding?)  between India and France over the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets will soon (whenever Indians say 'Will Soon"- it will be 15 years +... )  be translated into a government to government agreement.
> 
> "What has been agreed is an understanding and it will be translated into a government to government agreement. For this, the French and the Indian Defence Ministers will sit with their technical officials and their financial people and will work out all the details (great! as if Indians were good at details) ," MEA official spokesperson Syed Akbaruddin told ANI.
> 
> "Now, that there is an agreement in principle ( in principle?! ) , please give some time for the nitty-gritty to be worked out ( I saw these words millions of times here from the Indians, few are positive though) . And once this is worked out (oke, think 15 years plus) by the technical people, these will be (what Indians can do without "will"?  ) certainly made public," he added.
> 
> 
> 
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who is presently on a two-day visit to France, had on Friday ordered 36 "ready-to-fly" French-made Rafale fighter jets.
> 
> The 36 Rafale jets are expected to be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) within a span of two years (2 years or 20? it's quite hilarious  )*


nice blue and red lines...

It is Modi govt ....dont you worry....
even French were surprised by Modi's demand for 36 extra Rafale....since they were not knowing about it

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## PARIKRAMA

*The Rafale conundrum: Lessons to be learnt*




By Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd)

The Indian decision to purchase 36 Rafale multi-role jet fighters from France in 'fly-away' condition will no doubt redress a critical inventory gap for the Indian Air Force (IAF) but it may turn out to be a Pyrrhic victory for French aerospace giant Dassault Aviation rather than the 'coup' it is being made out to be. *This is a complex issue, with serious implications for India's security and cannot be viewed in simplistic win-lose terms.*

*Aircraft attrition, obsolescence and declining numbers constitute a triple spectre that haunts every air chief, making him ask for more. The IAF's problem has been aggravated by the fact that a significant proportion of its combat strength consisted of the Soviet-era MiG-21s ,of which about 850 were licence-produced by HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited). Its planned indigenous replacement, the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, promised by the DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organization) by the early 1990s, has come 25 years late and is too little, too late.

Dwindling numbers, coupled with the operational challenge posed by rapidly modernising air forces of neighbouring China and Pakistan, led the IAF to decide that a quick-fix for its problems was to induct additional numbers of the French Mirage-2000. This aircraft had an excellent record in IAF service and Vayu Bhavan, the air headquarters, felt that it could become the future medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) not only bridging the gap between the Su-30 and the Tejas but also compensating for the eventual de-induction of the MiG-21s.*

However, the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) was aware that Dassault was on the verge of closing down the Mirage-2000 production-line and switching to the more advanced Mirage-2000-5 version, a substantially different machine. *Refusing to treat the IAF proposal as a repeat order, the MoD insisted that a fresh staff requirement be drawn up and followed with a "request for proposals" (RFP).*

Once responses to the RFP were examined, the IAF wasted no time in initiating a rigorous evaluation process in which each of the six competing aircraft were assessed over the full range of maintenance and operational criteria laid down in the staff requirement.

However, the IAF had rendered an already complex process even more problematic by casting its net too wide. The six aircraft, short-listed for evaluation, fell into conspicuously different categories of vintage, weight, sophistication and cost, making it truly a contentious contest between apples and oranges.

More than a decade after initiation of the MMRCA proposal, the MoD declared in January 2012 that the Rafale had been selected for induction into the IAF. A letter of intent for acquisition of 126 aircraft was issued to Dassault Aviation - with 18 to be built in France and the rest to be assembled and manufactured by in India by HAL. Contract negotiations commenced soon after, with the programme costs being estimated at between $12-15 billion.

Although there has been no official pronouncement, in the 27 months since the conclusion of the MMRCA competition, negotiations appeared to be deadlocked with no contract in sight. Media speculation has focused on Dassault's lack of confidence in the ability of HAL to attain requisite aviation manufacturing standards. The direct implications are that Dassault will not stand guarantee for HAL-produced Rafales and there will be significant cost escalations with figures of $22-30 billion being mentioned.

*Given HAL's dismal track record of poor quality control in every product it has delivered to the three Services, Dassault's reservations are understandable. However, this issue should have been addressed by the French company before it submitted its bid and not at the stage of contract negotiations. This appears to be almost a replay of the serious problems faced by the MoD in the Scorpene submarine project. It that latter case, M/S Thales of France invoked some fine print in the contract after it had been signed in good faith, leading to huge time delays and cost overruns. Obviously, there is need for caution when dealing with French firms.*

*The hiatus in conclusion of the Rafale contract has led to conjecture in the media, perhaps fuelled by losers in the MMRCA competition. Apart from picking holes in the Rafale, some commentators have castigated the IAF for a flawed force-planning process, focusing on three issues: the high cost of the Rafale, especially when compared to the 'formidable' Sukhoi-30 MK, which awaits further upgradation, with dire prediction that the hidden costs of the Rafale project could bankrupt future defence budgets; the 'operational niche' into which the IAF intends to place the Rafale seems odd, given that it has the Sukhoi-30 and Tejas at the 'heavy' and 'light' ends of the combat spectrum with the Indo-Russian 5th generation aircraft (PAK-FA) on the horizon; and aggravation of the IAF's logistical nightmare when an 8th type is added to its existing inventory of seven combat aircraft of Russian, British, French, and Indian origin.*

Some of the observations merit the IAF's consideration. However, all is not monochromatic and four points deserve objective review. The egregious failure of the DRDO and India's defence industrial complex to meet the operational needs of the IAF is matched only by the detachment shown by the latter towards the indigenous aeronautics industry.

Had the IAF assumed positive "ownership" of aircraft projects, starting with the HT-2 trainer and the HF-24 Marut fighter, it may not have had to seek a basic trainer, an advanced trainer and a MMRCA aircraft from abroad today. Even at this late stage a Directorate of Aircraft Design in Air HQ would help create a symbiotic linkage between the Air Staff and India's aerospace industry.

The persistent clamour for aircraft numbers or squadrons sounds convincing when cited in the context of a 'two-front' war. However, these numbers were stipulated in an era when two squadrons of MiG-21s could have been bought for the price of a single Rafale today. Conversely, the versatile capabilities and the invulnerability of a modern multi-role combat aircraft make it the equivalent of a dozen or more of its predecessors. The emphasis now must shift from dumb numbers to smart capability.

There is food for thought in the fact that against the IAF's strength of 750-800 combat aircraft, the Royal Air Force and the French Air Forc, undertake world-wide commitments with just 225 aircraft of two types each -- the FAF with the Rafale and Mirage-2000 and the RAF with Tornadoes and Typhoons.

The above comparison is not really fair to the IAF since most of its inventory is of foreign origin. There is no guarantee, whatsoever, of how many aircraft will be available for combat on any day, given that the non-availability of even a small imported component can instantly ground an aircraft fleet. Here it must be noted that the Russian system has, despite repeated promises of reform, been the worst culprit for the past 25 years and its abysmal product-support has debilitated all three Services.

*The fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) or PAK-FA, being touted as an Indo-Russian joint project, is yet another example of rank bad faith on Russia's part. Based on a Russian pledge that they would share the design, engineering, testing and intellectual property in a 50-50 proportion, India was asked to contribute US $300 million, up-front, and 35 percent of the $15 billion project cost eventually. While details are under wraps, currently three prototype PAK-FAs are already flying in Russia with no Indian participation or contribution. This project promises to become a clone of the BrahMos; a Russian product that carries an ersatz Indo-Russian trademark.*

Eyebrows may be raised as to why a major announcement regarding outright purchase of 36 French-built Rafales should have been made in Paris rather than New Delhi. It is understood that the critical capability gap of the IAF compelled this expedient decision and to that extent it is to be cautiously welcomed.

However, delivering 36 Rafales to the IAF in two years is only possible if some aircraft are withdrawn from French service and refurbished, as was done in the case of British supplied Jaguars in 1978-79. This development reflects French politico-commercial compulsions and perhaps Modi's persuasive skills.

If this is just a modification of the original MMRCA deal to expedite deliveries, it will further complicate the already complex negotiations and render a severe blow to the 'Make in India' campaign as well as the MoD's 'Defence Offsets' initiative. Presumably the whole contract will need to be re-drafted and re-negotiated.

*However, if it is a change of heart on India's part, it may constitute a good all-round compromise. While partially satisfying French commercial interests, it permits India an honourable exit from the Rafale commitment; allowing it to review other options. The IAF, too, can look forward to an early boost for its combat capability, without being saddled with a crippling financial liability.*

However, India will keep encountering such conundrums unless the politician acquires comprehension of complex security issues and installs a professionally competent organization for acquisition of military hardware in MoD.

(12.04.2015 - Admiral Prakash is a former Naval Chief and a decorated fighter pilot. He was awarded the Vir Chakra in the 1971 operations when he was part of an IAF squadron. The views expressed are personal. He can be contacted at arunp2810@yahoo.com)

IANS, 12 April 2015

The Rafale conundrum: Lessons to be learnt

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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> This was my exact thinking.When looking at the future fleet i can't see place for more 'expensive imported medium class fighter' when considering LCA mk2 will be ready on a decent time frame.It will take atleast one month to sign final contract as many clearance for offset etc are needed.



LCA MK2 is neither developed yet, not do we know when it actually can be produced, but we do know that it's nowhere near the capability of an MMRCA, so there is no relation to MMRCA orders and LCA. The limiting factor on the other hand is the 3 years delay that we now have thanks to Dassault, because it now will be produced at the same time as FGFA will be produced too and any follow order would compete with additional FGFA, maybe even AMCA orders. Even if we sign the contract now, the production of 108 in India will go on till 2025 or beyond, so IAF hardly will opt for more LCAs or Rafales by then, when they can move on with NG fighters and drones.



Agent_47 said:


> How can we say its good when considering $2b worth of offset obligations are excused ?
> What do we gain from this sudden move ? extra 1 sqd of rafale can be operationalized by 2018. Is it worth ?



We lose on the industrial side, while the MoD gains on the cost side and if IAF's gain is very limited (3 squads till 2020 vs 2 according the earlier plans).


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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> Logically, the order of 36 is mainly a cost reduction measure for the Government, since they get a lower price tag from the French Government than from Dassault. Which means they could reduce the MMRCA to 90, to reduce the cost of the total order too, while retaining with the original requirement of 126 fighters. The only question is, if that's legally possible under the terms of the tender and what changes that will bring to the offset / ToT side of the tender.



This seems a government to government deal by what is being said by the MEA and therefore outside of the MMRCA contract. So its contours are unaffected by any stipulations in the original requirements. What this means for the wider contract is completely unclear. Unless Dassault comes up with a better offer, it is probably likely that the larger contract will disappear though there might be some additions to the number of 36 through a direct government to government deal.

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## GORKHALI

Speeder 2 said:


> *Let's see:
> 
> 
> 
> The Ministry of External Affairs has said the understanding (only an understanding?)  between India and France over the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets will soon (whenever Indians say 'Will Soon"- it will be 15 years +... )  be translated into a government to government agreement.
> 
> "What has been agreed is an understanding and it will be translated into a government to government agreement. For this, the French and the Indian Defence Ministers will sit with their technical officials and their financial people and will work out all the details (great! as if Indians were good at details) ," MEA official spokesperson Syed Akbaruddin told ANI.
> 
> "Now, that there is an agreement in principle ( in principle?! ) , please give some time for the nitty-gritty to be worked out ( I saw these words millions of times here from the Indians, few are positive though) . And once this is worked out (oke, think 15 years plus) by the technical people, these will be (what Indians can do without "will"?  ) certainly made public," he added.
> 
> 
> 
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who is presently on a two-day visit to France, had on Friday ordered 36 "ready-to-fly" French-made Rafale fighter jets.
> 
> The 36 Rafale jets are expected to be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) within a span of two years (2 years or 20? it's quite hilarious  )*


I suggest you not to use your *"high IQ"* *grey matter*,let Indians do their work. You better fine tune J10B which is still flying in *Yellow Primer.*

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## bipi@342

Long sought by the depleted Indian Air Force, Apache attack and Chinook heavy lift helicopters seem set to punch in through the opening created by Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s Rafale breakthrough. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has sought the mandatory finance ministry approval for purchase of 22 Boeing Apache attack helicopters from the US as a prelude to moving the Cabinet Committee on Security. The $2 billion purchase has been hanging fire since 2009 with the US defence major offering its 11th extension on price till June 30, 2015.

South Block officials said that Parrikar has also directed defence finance officials to fast-track the acquisition of 15 Chinook heavy helicopters from the US or record their reservations, if any, for the CCS to take a final view. “*Acquisition cannot remained mired in red tape. If the officials have any concerns, they should record it on file so that the political leadership can take a decision on either to concur with their view or reject it. Sitting on the file is not an option,*” said a senior South Block official. Manufactured by Boeing, the Chinook deal is worth around $1.1 billion and has been in limbo as long as the Apache.

The Apache qualified in the attack helicopter category as the other contender did not meet the specifications, Chinook qualified for the heavy copter tender as the lowest bidder on grounds of landed price, fuel efficiency and maintenance for 10 years after beating the Russia-made Mi-26 in 2012.

The IAF has only two squadrons of the roughly 25 years old Mi-35 attack helicopters, it has only three Mi-26 heavy lift helicopters with low serviceability. The IAF desperately requires attack helicopters like Apache to counter any aggression from the west and needs rapid deployment capability along the 3,488-km mountainous Line of Actual Control (LAC) with China. Boeing has offered India 15 Chinooks (CH-47F) with the option of purchase of seven more of the twin rotor helicopters that can carry 55 combat-ready troops or up to 11,000 kg of cargo.

In case of the Apache, Boeing has offered 22 platforms with the option of buying another 11 through both government-to-government and direct commercial sales route. The US manufacturer has offered state-of-the-art Longbow radar with Hellfire fire-and-forget all-weather missiles, Stinger missiles and rockets. Both helicopters use top-of-the-line technology and have been battle-proven in the Afghanistan and Iraq theatres.

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## anant_s

bipi@342 said:


> *Acquisition cannot remained mired in red tape. If the officials have any concerns, they should record it on file so that the political leadership can take a decision on either to concur with their view or reject it. Sitting on the file is not an option*


Attaboy!
These guys really know how to get a work done. Glad they are showing guts to tackle the issues head on rather than following popular idiom of previous government viz _Sometimes no decision is also a decision_.

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## halloweene

Matrixx said:


> nice blue and red lines...
> 
> It is Modi govt ....dont you worry....
> even French were surprised by Modi's demand for 36 extra Rafale....since they were not knowing about it


Hmmmmm


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## PARIKRAMA

halloweene said:


> Hmmmmm



Hello Sir,
So whats your take about this 36 order? And whats the latest you are hearing? MMRCA ?


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## PARIKRAMA

DM MP is on a fast tracking mode.. Good finally we know someone who wants to clear a lot of back logged files (acquisitions).
Hope MP also clarifies a bit more about 3 projects - FGFA, AMCA and LCA MK2 and starts pushing agencies for prioritization.

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## mad_max

What good 22 Longbow's will do you your armed forces , order is too less to be any significant.
With kind of 2 front war situation and naxal / terrorist problems you have at least 100 should have been ordered.


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## deckingraj

bipi@342 said:


> “*Acquisition cannot remained mired in red tape. If the officials have any concerns, they should record it on file so that the political leadership can take a decision on either to concur with their view or reject it. Sitting on the file is not an option,*” said a senior South Block official. Manufactured by Boeing, the Chinook deal is worth around $1.1 billion and has been in limbo as long as the Apache.



This alone statement made my day...at-least the MOD is talking some sense...has been ruled by morons for too long to expect even rational words from them...i hope they stick to these words for good!!

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## uparyupari

mad_max said:


> What good 22 Longbow's will do you your armed forces , order is too less to be any significant.
> With kind of 2 front war situation and naxal / terrorist problems you have at least 100 should have been ordered.



Do not let YOUR Ignorance become OUR burden.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Rafale deal is defence's Make in India landmark*
Monday, 13 April 2015 - 7:35am IST | Agency: dna



Shaili Chopra

The mega deal with Rafale is first landmark in the Make In India plan for the defence sector, and promises to put into throttle investments and expansion of small and large industry to produce parts and tech that needs to go with it. 

*What it will bring with it is technology transfer, research and development and a new skill building opportunities. 36 ready planes make for two squadrons of the Indian Air Force and can boost its otherwise weakening and aeging fleet. This $20 billion deal will mean $10 billion opportunity in manufacturing offsets in India. *


*What’s unique and progressive about this deal is that Rafale may be working with a private Indian company to build 90 planes. Rafale project was earlier stuck because of the manufacturer Dassualt’s reluctance to bank on a PSU’s competence as it was being forced to work with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. Now with the new deal (and the new government) the contract will go to a private defence manufacturer. The Indian government under UPA was insistent that the French manufacturer guarantee timely deliverance and quality of the plane by the Bengaluru-based PSU, something the company was not willing to do. Finally, the deal is set to take off with these issues out of the way. *

We in India have been obsessed and concerned with the FDI in defence debate although most of our military capacity has always been supported by foreign equipment and planes. Deals like these may showcase that foreign tech and investment in India military aviation can grow its strategic capability and it’s a good time to shed the fears attached to FDI in the sector too.

History is replete with examples that India’s experiments with indigenisation have, at best, been tardy. Homegrown companies can continue researching with grants and doles but that could take a while before we achieve anything. According to a paper published by the institute for defence studies and Analyses (idsA) even if India increases its R&D efforts in a big way, the benefits, in terms of equipping the armed forces with proven technologies, will not accrue in the near future.

In the 65 years since independence, we should have been able to absorb technology and understand it. All these years we left things to the defence Research & development Organisation (dRdO) and look where we stand today. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) took 25 years to make and is still to get inducted in the fleet. The Arjun Battle Tank was also delayed. When India bought the Sukhoi su-30 from Russia, it was decided that eventually they would transfer technology and equipment, and we would put them together here in our factories but even there our figures went beyond the cost of importing it.
Eventually we will need foreign investment in domestic companies. Worries of sabotage and blackmail can be addressed by putting in appropriate riders in any agreement with such company. The solution doesn’t lie with the government either; instead, the concern of strategic and security interest should allow for domestic private sector to be preferred to foreign firms.

India even lags the nations in its own neighbourhood. China, for instance, has reduced dependence on imports, created its own industry and has begun exporting indigenously developed military equip- ments. In 1947 China’s defence was near nothing but today it may be the second largest. The fact is, India’s defence sector needs modernisation as nearly half its equipment is obsolete. Scams and corruption scandals have not made things easier.

The defence market is lumpy and the procedures opaque, such challenges make it harder for companies to enter the sector. Opening up the defence sector, going through with big deals will lead to higher investments and also increase the country’s ability to understand and grow with next generation tech. Most importantly it will put emphasis on making in India.
Rafale deal is defence's Make in India landmark | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

Abit jumbled as its quoting 90 tot under make in india with perhaps Reliance


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## mad_max

uparyupari said:


> Do not let YOUR Ignorance become OUR burden.


Good luck defending yourself with 4 hard point light chopper with very limited payload and radar capability , seriously your quote suits you comparing a non existent useless chopper to Apaches ?


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## anant_s

mad_max said:


> What good 22 Longbow's will do you your armed forces , order is too less to be any significant.
> With kind of 2 front war situation and naxal / terrorist problems you have at least 100 should have been ordered.


Well three things here:
1. This order of 22 Apaches is first lot only. As is with so many other deals, India buys such hardware in small batches (ex. C-130, P8I, Su 30 MKIs etc). Once the machines are inducted, there almost always is a case of follow up orders.
2. This proposed fleet of Apaches will be supplemented by LCH which will be in far greater numbers (owing to their price tag). Finally armed forces will have a good mix of imported and Indian fire-power.
3. Don't think there are any plans to use these helicopters against naxalites. Govt. on several occasions has said categorically that involvement of army against naxals will be as absolutely the last resort. The focus right now is to create special operation teams with special training and weaponry to tackle the guerrilla warfare tactics of naxals.

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## mad_max

anant_s said:


> Well three things here:
> 1. This order of 22 Apaches is first lot only. As is with so many other deals, India buys such hardware in small batches (ex. C-130, P8I, Su 30 MKIs etc). Once the machines are inducted, there almost always is a case of follow up orders.
> 2. This proposed fleet of Apaches will be supplemented by LCH which will be in far greater numbers (owing to their price tag). Finally armed forces will have a good mix of imported and Indian fire-power.
> 3. Don't think there are any plans to use these helicopters against naxalites. Govt. on several occasions has said categorically that involvement of army against naxals will be as absolutely the last resort. The focus right now is to create special operation teams with special training and weaponry to tackle the guerrilla warfare tactics of naxals.


Sooner you get rid of communist better , path to full scale development only lies after gaining lost lands/forests/mines to naxalites

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## ZooZoo

He will get it....


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## Capt.Popeye

mad_max said:


> What good 22 Longbow's will do you your armed forces , order is too less to be any significant.
> With kind of 2 front war situation and naxal / terrorist problems you have at least 100 should have been ordered.




22 helos is only the first lot. Final figures are likely to be thrice that number. In the mean while the first order tranche of Chinooks are likely to be pushed through.

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## The_Sidewinder

mad_max said:


> What good 22 Longbow's will do you your armed forces , order is too less to be any significant.
> With kind of 2 front war situation and naxal / terrorist problems you have at least 100 should have been ordered.



They will be supplemented with LCH & Rudra's.

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## uparyupari

mad_max said:


> Good luck defending yourself with 4 hard point light chopper with very limited payload and radar capability , seriously your quote suits you comparing a non existent useless chopper to Apaches ?



I repeat, don't let your Ignorance become our burden, 

Total LCH ordered - 181

Total Rudra ordered - 76

Total Mi-17 V5 ordered - 230 











Not to mention 20 Mi-35 with IAF. 







There is more than enough Helicopter based Attack platform with India.

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## kaku1

uparyupari said:


> I repeat, don't let your Ignorance become our burden,
> 
> Total LCH ordered - 181


Isnt IAF and IA orders are different, even variants are different. 

IA needs the LCH for its armored brigade,.


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## Ind4Ever

mad_max said:


> What good 22 Longbow's will do you your armed forces , order is too less to be any significant.
> With kind of 2 front war situation and naxal / terrorist problems you have at least 100 should have been ordered.



Now STFU. ... 
@Oscar sir plz take care of this troll. Thanks in advance

On topic : 
We need to make it as soon as possible . So we can go ahead with additional orders or Army . We are looking to buy some 60-65 Apache and lots more Chinnoks for carrier operation, Mountain Corp deployment at high altitude operation and for humanitarian aid for kedar nath kind of situation to evict survivors stranded in sloppy mountains. 

We need some Apache technology for our LCH as well for future development  too ...

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## kaku1

mad_max said:


> Good luck defending yourself with 4 hard point light chopper with very limited payload and radar capability , seriously your quote suits you comparing a non existent useless chopper to Apaches ?


How many hard points you have on your helicopter Z-10?


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## mad_max

Ind4Ever said:


> Now STFU. ...
> @Oscar sir plz take care of this troll. Thanks in advance
> 
> On topic :
> We need to make it as soon as possible . So we can go ahead with additional orders or Army . We are looking to buy some 60-65 Apache and lots more Chinnoks for carrier operation, Mountain Corp deployment at high altitude operation and for humanitarian aid for kedar nath kind of situation to evict survivors stranded in sloppy mountains.
> 
> We need some Apache technology for our LCH as well for future development  too ...


Apache technology for LCH , you guys are complete A** clowns.


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## Ind4Ever

uparyupari said:


> I repeat, don't let your Ignorance become our burden,
> 
> Total LCH ordered - 181
> 
> Total Rudra ordered - 76
> 
> Total Mi-17 V5 ordered - 230
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention 20 Mi-35 with IAF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is more than enough Helicopter based Attack platform with India.


Now add 60+ Apache and follow on for Rudra

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## uparyupari

kaku1 said:


> Isnt IAF and IA orders are different, even variants are different.
> 
> IA needs the LCH for its armored brigade,.



That is a separate issue.


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## mad_max

uparyupari said:


> I repeat, don't let your Ignorance become our burden,
> 
> Total LCH ordered - 181
> 
> Total Rudra ordered - 76
> 
> Total Mi-17 V5 ordered - 230
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention 20 Mi-35 with IAF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is more than enough Helicopter based Attack platform with India.



Mi 17 is not a attack chopper first get your facts clear , its a transport heilo with limited weapons carrying capability so is rudra ( derivative of crash copter)


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## kaku1

uparyupari said:


> That is a separate issue.


But final order is much higher then number 181.


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## uparyupari

mad_max said:


> Mi 17 is not a attack chopper first get your facts clear , its a transport heilo with limited weapons carrying capability so is rudra ( derivative of crash copter)



Call it what you want. When it Rain's bombs on your @ss you can tell that to your buddies.

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## kaykay

mad_max said:


> What good 22 Longbow's will do you your armed forces , order is too less to be any significant.
> With kind of 2 front war situation and naxal / terrorist problems you have at least 100 should have been ordered.


Thats initial lot which will be complemented by 39 additional Apaches. So surely 61 Apaches can do a lot aling with 180 LCH and 76 Rudra. I see a very impressive attack helicopter fleet in future.( Rudras are being inducted right now through).

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## uparyupari

kaku1 said:


> But final order is much higher then number 181.



Oh yes.

Both Rudra and LCH will have a massive follow on orders. I am only talking about Orders already placed and being executed. Final tally will be HUGE. 

Already the order stands at close to 500 Helicopters.

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## mad_max

uparyupari said:


> Call it what you want. When it Rain's bombs on your @ss you can tell that to your buddies.


Are you guys all clowns , how do u imagine Mi 17 raining bombs in East cost United states ?


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## kaku1

mad_max said:


> Are you guys all clowns , how do u imagine Mi 17 raining bombs in East cost United states ?


Why we bomb US?

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## Ind4Ever

mad_max said:


> Apache technology for LCH , you guys are complete A** clowns.


Dimbo dombo !!! Right now Apache have world's most reliable mission computer to small tiny gears and gearbox etc. Even though we developed our lch into a best of all light Combat heli , Our future heavy attack choppers can get more useful technology from apache. So yes Mr.Dumbo bimbo


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## mad_max

kaku1 said:


> Why we bomb US?


ask your clown buddy @*uparyupari*
who quoted this

"Call it what you want. When it Rain's bombs on your @ss you can tell that to your buddies.  "


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## kaku1

mad_max said:


> ask your clown buddy @*uparyupari*
> who quoted this
> 
> "Call it what you want. When it Rain's bombs on your @ss you can tell that to your buddies.  "


He mean your @$$ which sitting in China with US flag.

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## mad_max

uparyupari said:


> I meant you real home, china or pakistan


I AM AMERICAN CITIZEN , FYi parents were from Gujrat India.


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## Tshering22

bipi@342 said:


> “*Acquisition cannot remained mired in red tape. If the officials have any concerns, they should record it on file so that the political leadership can take a decision on either to concur with their view or reject it. Sitting on the file is not an option,*



And THAT is how you do things, libtards.

Not sit your asses on important files of strategic importance, do scams and destroy the country from within.


----------



## mad_max

Ind4Ever said:


> Dimbo dombo !!! Right now Apache have world's most reliable mission computer to small tiny gears and gearbox etc. Even though we developed our lch into a best of all light Combat heli , Our future heavy attack choppers can get more useful technology from apache. So yes Mr.Dumbo bimbo


And what makes you think US will give you TOT for that , you yourself are incapable of even reverse engineering.


----------



## uparyupari

mad_max said:


> I AM AMERICAN CITIZEN , FYi parents were from Gujrat India.



Baap ka naam Ahmed Patel hai kya ?


----------



## kaku1

mad_max said:


> I AM AMERICAN CITIZEN , FYi parents were from Gujrat India.


Now you showing your true colors.


----------



## uparyupari

mad_max said:


> આપની મયા કો જેયા ક પૂચ કિતને બાપ તે તેરે પેહલે



So Amhed patel confirmed.


----------



## Tshering22

mad_max said:


> What good 22 Longbow's will do you your armed forces , order is too less to be any significant.



22 is the initial order placed. The IAF has also expressed interest of extending this to another 22 Apaches. 

These will be heavy gunships that will be replacing the Mi-35 Hinds which are now very old.



> With kind of 2 front war situation and naxal / terrorist problems you have at least 100 should have been ordered.



The IAF has ordered 66 light combat helicopters from HAL and the Army has ordered 114 LCHs as well.

These will be complementing the Apaches in any war scenario.

1- A 2-front war is the worst thing that can happen; akin to China being attacked by Japan, Korea and US all at the same time; SO it is a very remote possibility. 

2- Most of our gunship assets are based towards the western command since the eastern border is just impossible to operate gunships. LCHs are capable but the terrain doesn't need to justify anti-armour operations. Short range missiles will do the job. 

3- Naxals and the other jihadi terrorists are internal problem. They won't be seeing tanks and gunships to assault them. As much as I'd like to see IAF's LCHs and Army's tanks blasting these terrorists to smithereens, it is not going to happen. They will be dealt by CRPF special forces and other commando units.


----------



## kaykay

mad_max said:


> I AM AMERICAN CITIZEN , FYi parents were from Gujrat India.


Gujrat is in Pakistan. What India has is Gujarat. BTW I am from Gujarat, India.


----------



## Tshering22

mad_max said:


> Good luck defending yourself with 4 hard point light chopper with very limited payload and radar capability , seriously your quote suits you comparing a non existent useless chopper to Apaches ?



LCH is meant for high altitude warfare. Apaches cannot go to those altitudes (they're not designed to) in the himalayas.

The total LCH order will be 180+.

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## mad_max

Tshering22 said:


> LCH is meant for high altitude warfare. Apaches cannot go to those altitudes (they're not designed to) in the himalayas.
> 
> The total LCH order will be 180+.


High altitude alright but not all warfare will be on high altitude , you would need Heavy gunships like Apache in big numbers in open terrain warfare involving tanks.



kaykay said:


> Gujrat is in Pakistan. What India has is Gujarat. BTW I am from Gujarat, India.


So shall i dance , i have never been to Gujarat and never wish to , i am born american and will die american , dont have much affinity towards India.


----------



## uparyupari

Tshering22 said:


> LCH is meant for high altitude warfare. Apaches cannot go to those altitudes (they're not designed to) in the himalayas.
> 
> The total LCH order will be 180+.



Current projected requirement of LCH is 240.


----------



## kaykay

mad_max said:


> High altitude alright but not all warfare will be on high altitude , you would need Heavy gunships like Apache in big numbers in open terrain warfare involving tanks.


61 is a big number also considering the fact that 180 LCH will be there to support Apaches. 250 attack helis( hi lo mix) is a great fleet.


----------



## mad_max

kaykay said:


> 61 is a big number also considering the fact that 180 LCH will be there to support Apaches. 250 attack helis( hi lo mix) is a great fleet.


Last i heard you have ordered 22 and that order too is not finalized , where this 61 came up in your dreams


----------



## kaykay

mad_max said:


> High altitude alright but not all warfare will be on high altitude , you would need Heavy gunships like Apache in big numbers in open terrain warfare involving tanks.
> 
> 
> So shall i dance , i have never been to Gujarat and never wish to , i am born american and will die american , dont have much affinity towards India.


You are showing your true colours. Only Pakistanis say 'Gujarat' as Gujrat. LOLs

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## uparyupari

mad_max said:


> So shall i dance , i have never been to Gujarat and never wish to , i am born american and will die american , dont have much affinity towards India.



"So shall i dance"  

A Real ABCD will not speak such pure deshi english  

"i am born american"  LOL.

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## Tshering22

uparyupari said:


> Current projected requirement of LCH is 240.



I am talking about what has been confirmed orders. 

If we go by the projections, IAF isn't even 50% the size it should be (thanks to the Lost Decade).


----------



## CorporateAffairs

Any chances of a joint development of Rafales at home?


----------



## mad_max

uparyupari said:


> "So shall i dance"
> 
> A Real ABCD will not speak such pure deshi english
> 
> "i am born american"  LOL.



Pure desi English and what would that be Chimp ?


----------



## uparyupari

Tshering22 said:


> I am talking about what has been confirmed orders.
> 
> If we go by the projections, IAF isn't even 50% the size it should be (thanks to the Lost Decade).



No, the MoU is for 240 and that has been signed. 

HAL is gearing up for building 240. Actual numbers may be 300 to 500 as the economy looks up.


----------



## kaykay

mad_max said:


> Last i heard you have ordered 22 and that order too is not finalized , where this 61 came up in your dreams


From here. Indian army need 39 additional Apaches and thus USA has offered them.

Chuck Hagel to meet Modi: Apache gunships, Chinook helicopters top priority for India


----------



## uparyupari

mad_max said:


> Pure desi English and what would that be Chimp ?



LOL. Its what I whispered in your mom's ears last night. Ask her son.  .......... I promise she will give you a biscuit to go with your chai.


----------



## mad_max

kaykay said:


> From here. Indian army need 39 additional Apaches and thus USA has offered them.
> 
> Chuck Hagel to meet Modi: Apache gunships, Chinook helicopters top priority for India


Do you even have enough money for that ?


----------



## Tshering22

uparyupari said:


> No, the MoU is for 240 and that has been signed.
> 
> HAL is gearing up for building 240. *Actual numbers may be 300 to 500 as the economy looks up*.



Now that is pure fantasy, man.

It doesn't make sense to operate more than 200 gunships. 

IAF needs 250 tactical transport helicopters with 200 light utility helicopters.

Not so many gunships.

Can you give me the link for 240 signed? Thanks in advance.



mad_max said:


> Do you even have enough money for that ?


Old deals done but hanging by red tape, troller.


----------



## uparyupari

Tshering22 said:


> Now that is pure fantasy, man.
> 
> It doesn't make sense to operate more than 200 gunships.
> 
> IAF needs 250 tactical transport helicopters with 200 light utility helicopters.
> 
> Not so many gunships.
> 
> Can you give me the link for 240 signed? Thanks in advance.
> 
> 
> Old deals done but hanging by red tape, troller.



HAL had mentioned this projection in a press meet, 159 signed for, 80 expected to be signed. You can google it up.


----------



## kaykay

mad_max said:


> Do you even have enough money for that ?


LOLs We had money to buy P-8Is, C-17s, Super Hurcules etc so why not.


----------



## uparyupari

Bang Galore said:


> This seems a government to government deal by what is being said by the MEA and therefore outside of the MMRCA contract. So its contours are unaffected by any stipulations in the original requirements. What this means for the wider contract is completely unclear. Unless Dassault comes up with a better offer, it is probably likely that the larger contract will disappear though there might be some additions to the number of 36 through a direct government to government deal.



That's right. It has to be outside the scope of the current MMRCA negotiations. That is the only way it cannot be challenged in court.


----------



## mad_max

uparyupari said:


> LOL. Its what I whispered in your mom's ears last night. Ask her son.  .......... I promise she will give you a biscuit to go with your chai.


As expected you desi low lives resort to abuses at last


kaykay said:


> LOLs We had money to buy P-8Is, C-17s, Super Hurcules etc so why not.


Apparently not enough to save your policemen from naxalites.


----------



## Skull and Bones

Speeder 2 said:


> *Let's see:
> 
> 
> 
> The Ministry of External Affairs has said the understanding (only an understanding?)  between India and France over the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets will soon (whenever Indians say 'Will Soon"- it will be 15 years +... )  be translated into a government to government agreement.
> 
> "What has been agreed is an understanding and it will be translated into a government to government agreement. For this, the French and the Indian Defence Ministers will sit with their technical officials and their financial people and will work out all the details (great! as if Indians were good at details) ," MEA official spokesperson Syed Akbaruddin told ANI.
> 
> "Now, that there is an agreement in principle ( in principle?! ) , please give some time for the nitty-gritty to be worked out ( I saw these words millions of times here from the Indians, few are positive though) . And once this is worked out (oke, think 15 years plus) by the technical people, these will be (what Indians can do without "will"?  ) certainly made public," he added.
> 
> 
> 
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who is presently on a two-day visit to France, had on Friday ordered 36 "ready-to-fly" French-made Rafale fighter jets.
> 
> The 36 Rafale jets are expected to be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) within a span of two years (2 years or 20? it's quite hilarious  )*



Chinese are never known for their English comprehension, therefore I don't blame you for your limited hold over the language.


----------



## uparyupari

mad_max said:


> As expected you *desi low lives* resort to abuses at last
> 
> Apparently not enough to save your policemen from naxalites.



Its "low life" you dumb $hit  ........and we have all identified you as one. Now crawl back under that rock.


----------



## SR-91

mad_max said:


> High altitude alright but not all warfare will be on high altitude , you would need Heavy gunships like Apache in big numbers in open terrain warfare involving tanks.
> 
> 
> U r
> 
> So shall i dance , i have never been to Gujarat and never wish to , i am born american and will die american , dont have much affinity towards India.



u r one of those fake Indian American. Most of us Indian Americans are proud Indians n u r making us look bad. U should leave.


----------



## mad_max

SR-91 said:


> u r one of those fake Indian American. Most of us Indian Americans are proud Indians n u r making us look bad. U should leave.


Its personal opinion and I find nothing to be proud of , i dont even hang out with many desi's.
And I will leave when I wish so.


----------



## Koovie

mad_max said:


> Good luck defending yourself with 4 hard point light chopper with very limited payload and radar capability , seriously your quote suits you comparing a non existent useless chopper to Apaches ?



Its called Light Combat Helicopter for a reason. Heavy choppers like the Apache will have problems operating in high altitude areas, thats why India was forced to develop its own lighter combat helo for its border regions.


----------



## uparyupari

mad_max said:


> Its personal opinion and I find nothing to be proud of , i dont even hang out with many desi's.
> And I will leave when I wish so.



This will help you, Mr. " i am born american" 








Madrassa's are a terrible place to learn English.


----------



## mad_max

uparyupari said:


> Its "low life" you dumb $hit  ........and we have all identified you as one. Now crawl back under that rock.


so we are grunting here over typos , cheers !!


----------



## uparyupari

mad_max said:


> so we are grunting here over typos , cheers !!



LOL. Its MUCH more than just typos  

IF you knew English, you would have realized it.


----------



## mad_max

uparyupari said:


> LOL. Its MUCH more than just typos
> 
> IF you knew English, you would have realized it.


** YAWN **


----------



## uparyupari

mad_max said:


> ** YAWN **



Very articulate 

I think we are all convinced


----------



## mad_max

uparyupari said:


> Very articulate
> 
> I think we are all convinced


Is it time for your medication , GOOD BYE , I dont have time for this nonsense.

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## PARIKRAMA

Our friend @Gessler tried checking with PSK (Trishul blogger) about rafale order. A good reply from PSK

Gessler said...So, Prasunji, we would eventually end up with 189 Rafales or 63 Rafales?
Prasun K. Sengupta said...To GESSLER:
Eventually, in the fullness of time, the IAF will end up with 189 Rafale M-MRCAs. That's a given. But the negotiations had got stuck over the cost of licenced-production of the 108 units.* India was haggling over the labour cost parameters that are graded from 1 to 10. While the Russians had obtained Grade 6 for Su-30MKI, the French were asking for 8, while the Indians wanted it to be limited to 7. So, in the end, a compromise was struck under which India would order 36 Rafales off-the-shelf without any offsets of any kind & the French in turn would tone down their stance & come down to 7. Therefore, in nett terms, the French have won & India’s illogical negotiating shortsightedness (from 2012 till now) has been fully exposed. *And NaMo too has realised at last that there are clear technological & human resource limits to how far the ‘Make in India’ mantra can be flogged. And this deal for 36 Rafales was conceived entirely by Union Finance Minister Arun Jaitley & was fully endorsed by NaMo. Everyone else was in the dark on this issue. If 153 Rafales can be similarly ordered in successive tranches, then that will be the ideal solution. Because paying an exorbitant price for the so-called licenced-production of Rafales just to keep a few thousand employees of HAL gainfully employed for the next 20 years DOES NOT stand up to logic. Nor does such licenced-produiction lead to self-reliance of any kind anywhere. Far better therefore to utilize the money saved for the Tejas Mk2/LCA (Navy) Mk2 R & D effort, where at least 80% indigenisation can be expected in all domains except for the propulsion system.


@halloweene @sancho @Abingdonboy
Anyone of you had heard about the labour cost parameters and scale issues (france wanting 8 versus India stating 7)?
Its a new news to me. Till now i had heard about liability, guarantee and higher productivity cost due to lower manpower efficiency of HAL..

*Another new dimension*

*

Sitanshu Kar @SpokespersonMoD · 27m27 minutes ago*
*#MMRCA A car can not run on two paths simultaneoulsy: Defence Minister @manoharparrikar talking about the status of the existing RfP.*

*New Delhi, Delhi*
*

Sitanshu Kar @SpokespersonMoD · 37m37 minutes ago*
*#MMRCA Negotiation under the existing RfP had 'gone into a loop with no solution in sight': Defence Minister @manoharparrikar*


*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 1m1 minute ago
#36Rafale Essence of @manoharparrikar 's explanation on @narendramodi deal with France: MMRCA tender scrapped, Rafale purchase cap at 36




*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 30m30 minutes ago
#36 Rafale @manoharparrikar indicatees that IAF will have to make do with less than authorised strength of 42 combat squadrons




*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 31m31 minutes ago
"#36Rafale @manoharparrikar MMRCA tender's slipped into vortex.36 flyaway Rafales.May decide diff no for Make in India Rafales. Options open



*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 33m33 minutes ago
4/n #36Rafale @manoharparrikar 42 combat squadrons for IAF a target, but have to manage with less. Costs for 126 Rafales a "steep slope



*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 35m35 minutes ago
3/n #36Rafale @manoharparrikar: HAL's manpower reqt ratio of 2.7:1 (visavis OEM) high,driving up costs Details on Make in India in 2 months




*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 37m37 minutes ago
2/n @manoharparrikar hints Rafale numbers to be below 126. Only 36 flyaway imports. Options open on Make in India.HAL costs were a problem




*Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 39m39 minutes ago
FLASH: #36Rafale @manoharparrikar: MMRCA tender to be scrapped. Entire Rafale procurement in government-to-government deal 1/N

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## migflug

Sitanshu Kar– ‏@SpokespersonMoD




#MMRCA G-2-G route better than the RfP path for acquisition of strategic platforms: Defence Minister Manohar @manoharparrikar


MMRCA looks to be scrapped



PARIKRAMA said:


> Our friend @Gessler tried checking with PSK (Trishul blogger) about rafale order. A good reply from PSK
> 
> Gessler said...So, Prasunji, we would eventually end up with 189 Rafales or 63 Rafales?
> Prasun K. Sengupta said...To GESSLER:
> Eventually, in the fullness of time, the IAF will end up with 189 Rafale M-MRCAs. That's a given. But the negotiations had got stuck over the cost of licenced-production of the 108 units.* India was haggling over the labour cost parameters that are graded from 1 to 10. While the Russians had obtained Grade 6 for Su-30MKI, the French were asking for 8, while the Indians wanted it to be limited to 7. So, in the end, a compromise was struck under which India would order 36 Rafales off-the-shelf without any offsets of any kind & the French in turn would tone down their stance & come down to 7. Therefore, in nett terms, the French have won & India’s illogical negotiating shortsightedness (from 2012 till now) has been fully exposed. *And NaMo too has realised at last that there are clear technological & human resource limits to how far the ‘Make in India’ mantra can be flogged. And this deal for 36 Rafales was conceived entirely by Union Finance Minister Arun Jaitley & was fully endorsed by NaMo. Everyone else was in the dark on this issue. If 153 Rafales can be similarly ordered in successive tranches, then that will be the ideal solution. Because paying an exorbitant price for the so-called licenced-production of Rafales just to keep a few thousand employees of HAL gainfully employed for the next 20 years DOES NOT stand up to logic. Nor does such licenced-produiction lead to self-reliance of any kind anywhere. Far better therefore to utilize the money saved for the Tejas Mk2/LCA (Navy) Mk2 R & D effort, where at least 80% indigenisation can be expected in all domains except for the propulsion system.
> 
> 
> @halloweene @sancho @Abingdonboy
> Anyone of you had heard about the labour cost parameters and scale issues (france wanting 8 versus India stating 7)?
> Its a new news to me. Till now i had heard about liability, guarantee and higher productivity cost due to lower manpower efficiency of HAL..



manohar parrikar saying the same

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## PARIKRAMA

The series of twets is disturbing.. Rafale capped at only 36 with MMRCA dead means either another bird in that category or PAKFA earlier variants coming in or may be rumored Su35Stealth (really)?) or eprhaps the beginning of the AMCA in a big way.


So logically Dassault played too hard ball and lost a scope for 200 birds? and had to be content with just 36???


@MilSpec @Abingdonboy @sancho @halloweene


----------



## uparyupari

mad_max said:


> Is it time for your medication , GOOD BYE , I dont have time for this nonsense.



"Is it time for your medication" ends with a question mark "?", not a comma  

Goodbye is a single word  ...and ends with a full stop or a exclamation mark  , not a comma. 

"I dont" is actually "I don't" ........... see the apostrophe ?

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## uparyupari

PARIKRAMA said:


> The series of twets is disturbing.. Rafale capped at only 36 with MMRCA dead means either another bird in that category or PAKFA earlier variants coming in or may be rumored Su35Stealth (really)?) or eprhaps the beginning of the AMCA in a big way.
> 
> So logically Dassault played too hard ball and lost a scope for 200 birds? and had to be content with just 36???
> 
> @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @sancho @halloweene



Similar to the 49 Mirage 2000 deal in the 1980's 

This time its 36 Rafale, just history repeating itself. Hopefully we will learn our lesson this time and focus on indigenous design and manufacture.


The more things change, the more things remain the same.


----------



## duhastmish

uparyupari said:


> "Is it time for your medication" ends with a question mark "?", not a comma
> 
> Goodbye is a single word  ...and ends with a full stop or a exclamation mark  , not a comma.
> 
> "I dont" is actually "I don't" ........... see the apostrophe ?


Bhai le lee

Good one.

--------/----/

Apache will be much needed boost for indian army. Although india don't have grave need right now, for any domestic issue such as Maoist. Having said that we must be prepared for any future endeavour.

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## Bhoot Pishach

PARIKRAMA said:


> Our friend @Gessler tried checking with PSK (Trishul blogger) about rafale order. A good reply from PSK
> 
> Gessler said...So, Prasunji, we would eventually end up with 189 Rafales or 63 Rafales?
> Prasun K. Sengupta said...To GESSLER:
> Eventually, in the fullness of time, the IAF will end up with 189 Rafale M-MRCAs. That's a given. But the negotiations had got stuck over the cost of licenced-production of the 108 units.* India was haggling over the labour cost parameters that are graded from 1 to 10. While the Russians had obtained Grade 6 for Su-30MKI, the French were asking for 8, while the Indians wanted it to be limited to 7. So, in the end, a compromise was struck under which India would order 36 Rafales off-the-shelf without any offsets of any kind & the French in turn would tone down their stance & come down to 7. Therefore, in nett terms, the French have won & India’s illogical negotiating shortsightedness (from 2012 till now) has been fully exposed. *And NaMo too has realised at last that there are clear technological & human resource limits to how far the ‘Make in India’ mantra can be flogged. And this deal for 36 Rafales was conceived entirely by Union Finance Minister Arun Jaitley & was fully endorsed by NaMo. Everyone else was in the dark on this issue. If 153 Rafales can be similarly ordered in successive tranches, then that will be the ideal solution. Because paying an exorbitant price for the so-called licenced-production of Rafales just to keep a few thousand employees of HAL gainfully employed for the next 20 years DOES NOT stand up to logic. Nor does such licenced-produiction lead to self-reliance of any kind anywhere. Far better therefore to utilize the money saved for the Tejas Mk2/LCA (Navy) Mk2 R & D effort, where at least 80% indigenisation can be expected in all domains except for the propulsion system.
> 
> 
> @halloweene @sancho @Abingdonboy
> Anyone of you had heard about the labour cost parameters and scale issues (france wanting 8 versus India stating 7)?
> Its a new news to me. Till now i had heard about liability, guarantee and higher productivity cost due to lower manpower efficiency of HAL..
> 
> *Another new dimension*
> 
> *
> 
> Sitanshu Kar @SpokespersonMoD · 27m27 minutes ago*
> *#MMRCA A car can not run on two paths simultaneoulsy: Defence Minister @manoharparrikar talking about the status of the existing RfP.*
> 
> *New Delhi, Delhi*
> *
> 
> Sitanshu Kar @SpokespersonMoD · 37m37 minutes ago*
> *#MMRCA Negotiation under the existing RfP had 'gone into a loop with no solution in sight': Defence Minister @manoharparrikar*
> 
> 
> *Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 1m1 minute ago
> #36Rafale Essence of @manoharparrikar 's explanation on @narendramodi deal with France: MMRCA tender scrapped, Rafale purchase cap at 36
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 30m30 minutes ago
> #36 Rafale @manoharparrikar indicatees that IAF will have to make do with less than authorised strength of 42 combat squadrons
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 31m31 minutes ago
> "#36Rafale @manoharparrikar MMRCA tender's slipped into vortex.36 flyaway Rafales.May decide diff no for Make in India Rafales. Options open
> 
> 
> 
> *Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 33m33 minutes ago
> 4/n #36Rafale @manoharparrikar 42 combat squadrons for IAF a target, but have to manage with less. Costs for 126 Rafales a "steep slope
> 
> 
> 
> *Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 35m35 minutes ago
> 3/n #36Rafale @manoharparrikar: HAL's manpower reqt ratio of 2.7:1 (visavis OEM) high,driving up costs Details on Make in India in 2 months
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 37m37 minutes ago
> 2/n @manoharparrikar hints Rafale numbers to be below 126. Only 36 flyaway imports. Options open on Make in India.HAL costs were a problem
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Vishal Thapar* @thaparvishal · 39m39 minutes ago
> FLASH: #36Rafale @manoharparrikar: MMRCA tender to be scrapped. Entire Rafale procurement in government-to-government deal 1/N




MMRCA Tender "Gone with the Wind" !!!


----------



## Ind4Ever

So for :

TEJAS IS OUR REPLACEMENT FOR MIG21

There are 12/13 issue like blacklisting , offset procedures . So commitity will be formed in 7 days . And discussion will take place for the next 60 days or so. To form a credible procurement procedures

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## SRP

*India says any future Rafale jet purchases will be govt-to-govt*

Reuters) - Any future purchases of Rafale fighter jets will be through direct negotiations with the French government, India's defence minister said on Monday, calling into question an ongoing commercial negotiation with Dassault Aviation(AVMD.PA) for 126 aircraft.

India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Friday announced a plan to buy 36 jets from Dassault through the government-to-government route.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said Modi's decision came after the commercial negotiation went into a "vortex," but stopped short of saying the government had scrapped the negotiation for a contract with Dassault, worth up to $20 billion.

"This had to be done to break the vortex," he said, adding that the preferred method was now to talk directly to the French government.

"A car cannot travel on two roads," he told reporters.

(Reporting by Sanjeev Miglani; Writing by Frank Jack Daniel)


India says any future Rafale jet purchases will be govt-to-govt| Reuters


----------



## Bhoot Pishach

SRP said:


> *India says any future Rafale jet purchases will be govt-to-govt*
> 
> Reuters) - Any future purchases of Rafale fighter jets will be through direct negotiations with the French government, India's defence minister said on Monday, calling into question an ongoing commercial negotiation with Dassault Aviation(AVMD.PA) for 126 aircraft.
> 
> India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Friday announced a plan to buy 36 jets from Dassault through the government-to-government route.
> 
> Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said Modi's decision came after the commercial negotiation went into a "vortex," but stopped short of saying the government had scrapped the negotiation for a contract with Dassault, worth up to $20 billion.
> 
> "This had to be done to break the vortex," he said, adding that the preferred method was now to talk directly to the French government.
> 
> "A car cannot travel on two roads," he told reporters.
> 
> (Reporting by Sanjeev Miglani; Writing by Frank Jack Daniel)
> 
> 
> India says any future Rafale jet purchases will be govt-to-govt| Reuters




BUT YOU MISSED MOST IMPORTANT THING.

#36Rafale Essence of @manoharparrikar 's explanation on @narendramodi deal with France:
 MMRCA tender scrapped, Rafale purchase cap at 36

— Vishal Thapar (@thaparvishal) April 13, 2015


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## PARIKRAMA

What i make of the tweets is that if the MMRCA is being scrapped the most likely reason is because there are things that are things within the negotiations that are unlikely to be fully agreed upon mutually. So if you unshackle dassault from the MMRCA there is really nothing stopping them from choosing to exercise "MAKE IN INDIA" with the rafale by partnering with a company that it wanted to partner with all along. Meaning Reliance and Dassault would produce Rafale in India and perhaps GOI will buy from them. It may lead to a second line of production outside France in India from a strategic perspective. 

The carrot for Dassault in all this is obviously the chance to sell follow on's and the long term support and upgrade. And PM Modi pitch for Make in India becomes a proper reality


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## Ind4Ever

SCORPENE subs will undergo serious testing till 2016 before it get inducted . From then every 9 months 1 sub will be inducted .

Rafale deal is an important decisions in the interest of the country . Which will replace aging Mig 27 s . From today discussion will take place with French counter parts. As till now discussion took place between two leaders. So from now clear info will be conveyed to the contracts and all other issue.

On Dr.swami filling case on Rafale deal :

Swami is our most respected member , I will invite him one day to explain him about the contracts which we will sign is clear and may be one of the best deal for India than UPAs MMRCA . 70% is missile 30% is missiles ( overall cost of the deal)

I saw the comment made by dogvijay on modi buying jets like buying Fish . But let me tell you Fish has protein which can improve his mental capacity Lol

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## Stephen Cohen

Did he tell about Rafale NUMBERS 

What after 36


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## Ind4Ever

Rafale deal is major step for iAF

On fDI and Make in India . 

The idea of make in India is to buy weapons and make then here when we are importing more than 60 % from abroad . So we 30% -50% on some cases will help to achieve this

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## Stephen Cohen

on Which channel interview is going on


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## uparyupari

PARIKRAMA said:


> What i make of the tweets is that if the MMRCA is being scrapped the most likely reason is because there are things that are things within the negotiations that are unlikely to be fully agreed upon mutually. So if you unshackle dassault from the MMRCA there is really nothing stopping them from choosing to exercise "MAKE IN INDIA" with the rafale by partnering with a company that it wanted to partner with all along. Meaning Reliance and Dassault would produce Rafale in India and perhaps GOI will buy from them. It may lead to a second line of production outside France in India from a strategic perspective.
> 
> The carrot for Dassault in all this is obviously the chance to sell follow on's and the long term support and upgrade. And PM Modi pitch for Make in India becomes a proper reality



The Only problem is the Dassault is unlikely to do a genuine ToT with Reliance and Modi govt. is unlikely to fall for the CON job. 

If dassault was genuinely interested in a ToT, then HAL was a proven partner.


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## Ind4Ever

30000 cr for additional purchase other than budget . 

On New mountain strike Corp : There are no motive to use all our reserve . We are using just a few but not to a level where it's uncomfortable level . Before there was no fund a looted . That's why I have kept some 30 K cr for this purpose 

I conveyed my Good will to Mr Vk Singh for operation Rahat. Fabulous operation by any country . I Congo all who wr involved in it

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## Stephen Cohen

Rafale numbers ????


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## Stephen Cohen

Bhoot Pishach said:


> BUT YOU MISSED MOST IMPORTANT THING.
> 
> #36Rafale Essence of @manoharparrikar 's explanation on @narendramodi deal with France:
> MMRCA tender scrapped, Rafale purchase cap at 36
> 
> — Vishal Thapar (@thaparvishal) April 13, 2015



ABSOLUTE Nonsense 

36 is PEANUTS 

They want more 36 is the Carrot for Dassault


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## Ind4Ever

There was total omissions of defence procurement by Congress for very long time. Even media forgot our Armed forces . But now it's in reverse gear . We will take bold moves even if some parties criticise us. Nation is what matter . Not me or Babus

Policies needed to be changed . Those who want to join in our make in India they must be made as our partners in a long run. Make in India will be a win win for all . And be a great success

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## Pulsar

Ind4Ever said:


> Swami is our most respected member , I will invite him one day to explain him about the contracts which we will sign is clear and may be one of the best deal for India than UPAs MMRCA . 70% is missile 30% is missiles ( overall cost of the deal)
> 
> *I saw the comment made by dogvijay on modi buying jets like buying Fish* . But let me tell you Fish has protein which can improve his mental capacity Lol


These a$$holes are politicians who know squat about the technicalities. They'll politicize even the color of your shit!

It's high time they learn to STFU!

*IDIOTS!*


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## PARIKRAMA

A friends explanation for the reliance angle

How Dassault will be able to convince anyone that they can build the Rafale better than HAL beats me,unless a wholly new Dassault entity/manufacturing unit is set up in a JV with "Reliance" in India,which would be the beginning of the end of HAL.That would be the thin end of the wedge.A whole succession of aircraft,helos,etc., would later on flow out from this entity and perhaps even HAL would one day end up being pvtly owned!

If PM Modi and DM parrikar are serious about India's defence then HAL efficiency is the key. For that stiff competition is needed nt a monopolised organisation. Thus this could be a potentially whole industry changer decision. Well its speculation as of now of course

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## Bhoot Pishach

Stephen Cohen said:


> ABSOLUTE Nonsense
> 
> 36 is PEANUTS
> 
> They want more 36 is the Carrot for Dassault



Accept or not this is the truth.

Why, because the price is $5billion for 36 i.e. about $139million per piece, that is also without weapons suit.

Think what will be the cost of 108 rafales with TOT you can easily take the number well above *$30BILLIONS*.

IS INDIA GOVT. NUTS TO PAY THIS MUCH FOR 4.5 GENERATION STUFF?


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## Ind4Ever

On DRDO and other PSU : 
We must be patient . Things can't change in just a day . it will take some time and we will make them the best on the world . 

.... 

Alas !!!! Interview over . THANK YOU ! NAMESTE  



Pulsar said:


> These a$$holes are politicians who know squat about the technicalities. They'll politicize even the color of your shit!
> 
> It's high time they learn to STFU!
> 
> *IDIOTS!*



Chill out Bro ! I just posted the answers. These are made to the questions asked by our 64 Rafale news breaker 

All watch DD NEWS ... 
Show will continue on our defence matters . 

Nowadays DD News is very good in covering All positive info unlike who poked who #SupariJurnos

On Joint Chief of Army staff dM said ... American methods might be followed .

On One rank one pension he said soon there will be some good movement . In the interest of our jawans and veterans

. And I missed the rafale part (My bad ) but we can expect an article by 64 rafale deal news breaker . So let's see

Now defence experts review on DM interview .

One thing is sure. Some serious efforts going on to make Indian Armed forces into most feared among the world . Very clear motives and initiatives from this new government. 

And may I know his name ? Expert from NDTV who broke rafale deal before PM visit to France . Looks like he has shifted to DD NEWS

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## Georgeclark

Ind4Ever said:


> I saw the comment made by dogvijay on modi buying jets like buying Fish . But let me tell you Fish has protein which can improve his mental capacity Lol

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## The BrOkEn HeArT

Just now I have watched a discussion about Refale deal on NDTV. Expert says " it seems the deal of 126 refale has cancelled but new deal has been signed of 36 refale. This is Gov't to Gov't deal . So India will get fast result". But total number of refale is still in dark.

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## halloweene

About the costs i have the info. HAL (and subcontractors) cost would be 2.7* cost of Dassault (and subcontractors) produced.

About "generation" term it would mean a quantum leap, which F-35 isn't doing.

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## Ind4Ever

Some views by Veterans on the programme . 

Armed forces never have respect for DPSU why: 

Yes true. But they have served the country . But would have been much better . Credibility and timing as suffered. Point is why is that . In 1970 our defence imports was 70% same as today. There us no owner ship . Because we induct from all sort of ministry . But in UK etc they all get trained in one defence institution before they take responsible position in PSU . 

On Private players : Yes we need competition . Because there will be more R&D . 

On Offset :If we buy 1 cr worth there will be some 15% of reinvestment before. NOW ITS INCREASE TO 30-40% . It will take some time at least 10 years because we will kep importing for the next 10 years anyway so we must improve as soon as possible. 

On Two front war : we are doing well in this concern though it might not look like from outside . But we are very much prepared for the past 10 years . 

Really hard to cope up with fast typing . 

Programme tittle : BIG STEPS FOR DEFENCE

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## Bang Galore

CNN-IBN too reporting on the MMRCA deal being scrapped quoting Parrikar. Also says that no more tenders, all future deals to be government to government.

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## kaykay

mad_max said:


> As expected you desi low lives resort to abuses at last
> 
> Apparently not enough to save your policemen from naxalites.


Maoist releated casualties in India is 30 times less than Karachi alone. Not even considering other parts.

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## Bang Galore

uparyupari said:


> That's right. It has to be outside the scope of the current MMRCA negotiations. That is the only way it cannot be challenged in court.




MMRCA deal scrapped. All future deals to be only government to government.


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## Ind4Ever

The BrOkEn HeArT said:


> Just now I have watched a discussion about Refale deal on NDTV. Expert says " it seems the deal of 126 refale has cancelled but new deal has been signed of 36 refale. This is Gov't to Gov't deal . So India will get fast result". But total number of refale is still in dark.



Nooo ... This is what DM said . 

36 rafale will be bought in fly away conditions . Once PM return we will make more info to the public and others involved in this process. So deal is still on . Because just a day ago in another interview to Times now DM clearly said . This is out of box deal . And negotiations will take place to make more Advanced fighter jets in India .Rafale or otherwise. But I don't want to go into the matter deeper as negotiations (Noted? ) Still ON . 


Deal is through I guess . France and India will discuss in this issue from today !!! Including Dassault , French president, HAL babus and MOD officials for the 36 and MMRCA in a long run to sort out the issue . So don't go with someone's thoughts . Let's stick with official one .

Oh God DM on CNN : 


Rafale will be more expensive . MMRCA SCRAPED !!!! Future deal will be Govt to Govt deal . 


So MMRCA cancelled ? And we will go for 36 more fly away condition or 126 Govt to Govt or Cheaper deals ?

OH THIS IS IT !!! IF French want to sell more rafale it will be thru Govt to Govt deals and they have to play by our rules and likes . Or India will go for cheaper jets ... ???? 80 million su35 S ?

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## uparyupari

Bang Galore said:


> MMRCA deal scrapped. All future deals to be only government to government.



There is unlikely to be any more govt. to govt. purchase since it does not address Offset.

So IF any more Rafale are to be brought, then joint venture is the only possibility.

But things started looking brighter for LCA and AMCA.



Bhoot Pishach said:


> Accept or not this is the truth.
> 
> Why, because the price is $5billion for 36 i.e. about $139million per piece, that is also without weapons suit.
> 
> Think what will be the cost of 108 rafales with TOT you can easily take the number well above *$30BILLIONS*.
> 
> IS INDIA GOVT. NUTS TO PAY THIS MUCH FOR 4.5 GENERATION STUFF?



Parrikar said the cost is 70:30 split between Aircraft and missiles. I am going to guess the price of the Aircraft should be about 110-120 million $ per aircraft.


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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> This seems a government to government deal by what is being said by the MEA and therefore outside of the MMRCA contract. So its contours are unaffected by any stipulations in the original requirements. What this means for the wider contract is completely unclear. Unless Dassault comes up with a better offer, it is probably likely that the larger contract will disappear though there might be some additions to the number of 36 through a direct government to government deal.



Not necessarily, if this deal now is meant to cover the flyaway part of the MMRCA deal, the larger tender might be for the licence production only, which means no fighters produced by Dassault anymore. And as shown, we also don't know how the numbers will be effected. 36 + 90 would still cover the requirement for IAF and the order for Dassault, since we still buy 126 fighters, just with less or bypassing Dassault. So we have to wait for the details of the deal, to finally judge it, but as I said, it has no relevance without fixing the larger deal.



PARIKRAMA said:


> The series of twets is disturbing.. Rafale capped at only 36 with MMRCA dead means either another bird in that category or PAKFA earlier variants coming in or may be rumored Su35Stealth (really)?) or eprhaps the beginning of the AMCA in a big way.
> 
> 
> So logically Dassault played too hard ball and lost a scope for 200 birds? and had to be content with just 36???



Media speculations and there is no deal for 36, only the "intend" so far, with the negotiations on MMRCA going on as the DM confirmed.


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## kaykay

So now MMRCA is scrapped and all further order of Rafale will be Govt to govt deal? @sancho What are the benefits and loses of this type of deal?


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## Corsair

Bhoot Pishach said:


> Accept or not this is the truth.
> 
> Why, because the price is $5billion for 36 i.e. about $139million per piece, that is also without weapons suit.
> 
> Think what will be the cost of 108 rafales with TOT you can easily take the number well above *$30BILLIONS*.
> 
> IS INDIA GOVT. NUTS TO PAY THIS MUCH FOR 4.5 GENERATION STUFF?


Unless you have precise data on what is included or not in the contract, I'd suggest you not to make such unrelevant comments..


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## kaykay

uparyupari said:


> There is unlikely to be any more govt. to govt. purchase since it does not address Offset.
> 
> So IF any more Rafale are to be brought, then joint venture is the only possibility.
> 
> But things started looking brighter for LCA and AMCA.
> 
> 
> 
> Parrikar said the cost is 70:30 split between Aircraft and missiles. I am going to guess the price of the Aircraft should be about 110-120 million $ per aircraft.


Also this cost include their flying cost for next 15-20 years If I am not wrong. @sancho sir may confirm.


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## uparyupari

kaykay said:


> Also this cost include their flying cost for next 15-20 years If I am not wrong. @sancho sir may confirm.



LOL. Who is sancho to confirm anything ? he is just a kid studying in germany.  

Everything is pure speculation at this point.

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## Bhoot Pishach

uparyupari said:


> Parrikar said the cost is 70:30 split between Aircraft and missiles. I am going to guess the price of the Aircraft should be about 110-120 million $ per aircraft.





Corsair said:


> Unless you have precise data on what is included or not in the contract, I'd suggest you not to make such unrelevant comments..



Apart from Commitment for Long term Support from France for these 36, nothing is clear. 

Egypt are getting their 24 in 5+Billion, will India get 36 in less then 5Billion??

Let the full picture emerge, this is the price benchmark and most probably will not go down.


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## uparyupari

Rafale deal an unmitigated disaster – Bharat Karnad of CPR

India has ordered 36 “ready-to-fly” French-madeRafale fighter jets to modernise the country’s ageing warplane fleet. But Bharat Karnad, a research professor at the Centre for Policy Research (CPR) in New Delhi, said the deal with French manufacturer Dassault Aviation is a disaster that will not meet the immediate needs of India’s air force.

On April 13, Karnad joined the Trading India Forum, a live webchat hosted by Thomson Reuters where members from the financial industry interact. He shared his views on the Rafale jet deal, its implications for India and whether the Russian-made Su-30MKI would have been a better choice.

Here are edited excerpts from Karnad’s responses in the chatroom. Any opinions expressed here are those of Karnad and not of Thomson Reuters.

*Q: Your view on the Rafale dealA: My view, encapsulated in my blog www.bharatkarnad.com on April 10, is that it’s an unmitigated disaster at many levels.

Q: I remember reading somewhere that if the Indian order doesn’t materialize, then the company will shut down.
A: Yes, because Dassault was down to producing 11 Rafales per year; now it can carry on for another 10 years. It is actually oxygen for the French aerospace industry.

Q: If not Rafale, what other option did the air force have?A: If there was a critical requirement to make up fighter squadrons quickly, then there is no better way than putting an indent with the Russians for more Su-30MKIs. Parrikar actually favoured that as an alternative to Rafale.

Q: Is this because the aircraft are of very poor quality?

A: No, Rafale are not poor quality, but India will have to pay an arm and a leg for it at over $200 million per unit cost. While the more advanced Su-30, as Parrikar noted, with full ordnance load comes in at less than half the price.

Q: Why do you call the deal an “unmitigated disaster”?

A: Unmitigated disaster because
- it won’t solve IAF‘s immediate needs, which induction of more Su-30s can do. The first Rafales will come in by 2017 at the earliest, more likely 2018
- it torpedoes the entire TOT (transfer of technology) and “Make In India” angle, and
- while rescuing the French combat aircraft industry, deprives the Indian Tejas Mk2 and the advanced medium combat aircraft projects of much needed funding to get going.

Q: So has the government been advised wrongly?

A: Given the enormous price differential between the Rafale and Su-30 options, the decision makes no sense, unless it is that the government of India has bought into the IAF’s argument that it needs to diversify its sources of hardware. All this means that the Indian Air Force and the country are in hock to many more countries, and can be manipulated by them in the foreign policy arena and in crises. I am quite sure the PM was not offered the alternative to consider by the MEA-IAF-NSA combine.

Q: The Su-30MKI has been in service since the late 90s. If it can fill the requirement, then what was the need for the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) tender in the first place?

A: You tell me what the need is. In fact, as I have argued, the entire concept of a medium, light, heavy combat aircraft categories are unique to IAF and entirely spurious.

Q: But if you keep buying Russian hardware, you risk being manipulated by them?A: The reality is this – Russia post-Crimea is getting into deep financial waters and India holds the whip hand in its reins with Moscow, which is not the case with our reins with France.

Q: Is there a quid pro quo in the form of a nuclear deal? The PMO has been tom-tomming the L&T-Areva deal.

A: The N-deal for Areva, which is equally questionable is on a separate track; not connected with the MMRCA issue.

Q: What, in your opinion, should be the requirement of the IAF?

A: IAF needs can be fully met with a mix in the medium-term future – next 15-20 years – of Su-30s for strike and air superiority, MiG-29Ms (latest variety) for long-range air defence, and LCA Tejas Mk-Is and IIs for short-range air defence.

Q: What should the government’s priorities be in defence expenditure? Did the first full budget by Finance Minister Arun Jaitley address those issues?
A: No, Jaitley’s budget did not address the MOD (Ministry of Defence) priorities, but that’s Parrikar’s job. The top priorities should be to beef up capabilities against China, especially three – not one – offensive ops mountain corps, and getting another Akula-II SSN from Russia.

Q: In your view, does the IAF not need a medium multi-role combat aircraft?
A: Not, MMRCA is a dubious need expressly favoured by the IAF to go Western, rather than making fiscal sense or serve the national interest.

Q: But the Tejas was under development for more than 25 years and is still nowhere near the final product.

A: Time delays and cost escalation is par for the course for all new combat aircraft programmes. Consider the US F-35 costing a trillion dollars, over 20 years, nearly 8-10 years overdue and operationally still an absolute disaster. And this is with an established defence industry, mind you.

Q: Can you list India’s top three threats in terms of countries?A: China, China and China.

Q: That big a threat?A: Yes, because unless India is able to achieve at least notional parity in conventional and nuclear military terms with China, the coercive pressure from that end will be virtually irresistible in the years to come.

Q: Can India still go ahead with buying Typhoon?A: No, Typhoon has its own developmental and operational problems and its serviceability in the German Luftwaffe is some 39 percent.

Q: It’s 36 ready-made Rafales and 90 to be produced in India with transfer of technology, right?A: The question is TOT and licence manufacture at what price? After all, the price negotiation committee got stuck in talks with Dassault over precisely the French-sourced and HAL-built Rafales.

Q: How are Indian firms positioned to take Modi’s defence push? Do L&T, Pipavav have the technological capabilities?

A: If HAL is disfavoured as per Modi’s remarks, then Indian private corporations will have to pick up the slack. But they do not have the physical facilities for production like HAL does, and it will cost $5-8 billion to put up a production line. Can L&T or anybody else invest so much without the guarantee of future custom beyond Rafale?

Q: Russia supplies similar hardware to China as well as India. Doesn’t broadening the military partnership make sense for India?A: No, because Russia is apprehensive of China because of its security problems in Siberia, border, etc. with China, always sells less than the cutting-edge stuff to PLAAF (The People’s Liberation Army Air Force). Moscow is more open about tech when dealing with India.

Q: Wasn’t the deal finalized by the previous government?

A: No, there was no deal finalized with the UPA government, only a commitment to negotiate an appropriate contract to meet IAF’s so-called MMRCA needs. Nothing else. It was completely the BJP government’s call.

Q: Do you think securing French aviation from the brink of disaster is a masterstroke in securing the final vote at the UNSC?

A: If you know the history of France, you’d not have asked this question. No, France will not push India’s candidature to the UNSC for love or money, other than as a generalized push by US-UK-France, and this won’t happen, because it is more profitable to keep New Delhi stringing along.*


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## sancho

kaykay said:


> So now MMRCA is scrapped and all further order of Rafale will be Govt to govt deal? @sancho What are the benefits and loses of this type of deal?



Not going to happen, since the 36 are specifically meant to be diverted from the French order, but that's not possible for the full requirement, nor is the French government able to give us the licence production, ToT or any offset deals, so you can't move around Dassault if you want a licence production or any things produced in India.But one thing is clear, the Indian Government seems to be fed up with Dassault and all the delays they caused.
The benefits of dealing with the government is mainly costs, since they get them at flyaway costs and can sell them at a lower price than Dassault would ask, since Dassault has to add development costs too. But as said, any order that we make via the French government, would be produced in France, which is against anything we worked since 2007 and would be insane!


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## magudi

looks like mmrca scrapped omg

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## Corsair

Bhoot Pishach said:


> Apart from Commitment for Long term Support from France for these 36, nothing is clear.
> 
> Egypt are getting their 24 in 5+Billion, will India get 36 in less then 5Billion??
> 
> Let the full picture emerge, this is the price benchmark and most probably will not go down.


Egypt also bought a FREMM-class frigate with the package, you know that, right ?


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## Bhoot Pishach

uparyupari said:


> Rafale deal an unmitigated disaster – Bharat Karnad of CPR
> *
> Q: Is this because the aircraft are of very poor quality?
> 
> A: No, Rafale are not poor quality, but India will have to pay an arm and a leg for it at over $200 million per unit cost. While the more advanced Su-30, as Parrikar noted, with full ordnance load comes in at less than half the price.*



Your quarry in Below quote is been cleared by Yours above post!!!



uparyupari said:


> Parrikar said the cost is 70:30 split between Aircraft and missiles. I am going to guess the price of the Aircraft should be about 110-120 million $ per aircraft.


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## Bang Galore

*Centre scraps $20 billion MMRCA deal for 126 Rafale jets for IAF, LCA Tejas to replace MiG-21*
CNN-IBN@ibnlive

*New Delhi:* In a surprising decision which is likely to have a major impact on the Indian Air Force (IAF), the Centre has scrapped the $20 billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal for purchase of 126 Rafale fighter jets signed by the previous United Progressive Alliance government. Speaking to CNN-IBN, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar claimed that Rafale fighters cannot replace the ageing MiG-21 which will be phased out in the next 6-10 years.

Parrikar said that India's indigenous Light Combat aircraft Tejas will replace MiG 21 as both are almost of the same category while the Rafale is a much bigger jet with a bigger range and more weapons carrying capabilities. "We have not purchased any new aircraft of latest technology in the past 15 years. IAF desperately needs fourth generation aircraft, the fifth generation that we are working on will take 10-15 years," said Parrikar.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi during his recent visit to France negotiated with the government there to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets in fly-away condition under a new deal. After meeting French President Francois Hollande in Paris on April 11, Modi announced that IAF would get 36 Rafale jets.






Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said Rafale jets cannot replace the ageing MiG-21 which will be phased out in the next 6-10 years.

"I think it is a bold decision and I will give 100 out of 100 to the Prime Minister. Many people politically fail to take decision. But the need of the nation comes first. What Modiji has done is that he has got a deal for 36 aircraft. We will negotiate and will buy more. The ice has been broken," he said.

"We have 42 squadrons, we need 36-38 active squadrons. We are phasing out MiG-21. Rafale is not a replacement for MIG. It satisfies the upper end. IAF needs aircraft with capacity of 1000 kms radius. It is a strategic purchase. The earlier government should have taken decisions on government to government deals," added Parrikar.

While pointing out that IAF needs new fighters within a short time frame and so the government to government deal to buy 36 Rafale jets was finalised.

"We have not purchased all 36 aircraft. When there is a PM or President level deal, it is matter of principle clearance. We have promised to purchase 36 aircraft. The major reason for the deal is to induct it in the minimum time frame. It is a good deal," he said.

"Make in India part of the deal will be discussed between ministries. Rafale is a top end fighter and satisfies other criterion as well. The aircraft is expensive and hence we have to take steps. Rafale cannot replace MiG-21, Tejas can do that. We won't induct any low end aircraft. Tejas is a lighter aircraft, it has its limitations. It cannot loiter for hours. Its carrying capacity is only 10-12 tonnes whereas Rafale can carry 24 tonnes," he said.

On charges made by senior Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) leader Subramanian Swamy that the Rafale deal is not in India's interest, the Defence Minister said that he will explain to his colleague the entire scenario and that Swamy's reaction was based on instant news.

But Swamy termed the new Rafale fighter jet deal between India and France a case of arbitrariness. Swamy is yet to decide on what action to take over Modi government's decision to purchase 36 aircraft from France.

Swamy said, "I have not yet decided on whether to approach the court. I am waiting for papers on the new Rafael deal. It prima facie appears to be a case of arbitrariness." Swamy requested Modi not to go ahead with the Rafale deal, which was negotiated by the previous UPA government, and said the performance of the French jet "turned out to be worst of all the aircraft" in Libya and Egypt.

IAF had shortlisted the Rafale fighter under the MMRCA deal after a close competition which also saw Eurofighter Typhoon, Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, Mikoyan MiG-35 and Saab JAS 39 Gripen in the race. While Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, Mikoyan MiG-35 and Saab JAS 39 Gripen were eliminated very early, Dassault Rafale edged out the Eurofighter Typhoon in the final negotiation.

At present the IAf has just 34 fighter squadrons against the ideal 45 squadrons required to take on the threat from both Pakistan and China simultaneously. The ageing MiG-21 and MiG-27 planes are being phased out which will see the IAF strength depleting by at least eight more squadrons.

Under the deal, India was to get only 18 Rafale directly while the rest 108 fighters were to be manufactured by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. But the final deal between India and France was stuck over who would be responsible for the manufacturers' guarantee on 108 jets which were to be built HAL. India wanted Rafale maker Dassault Aviation to take full responsibility which the latter had not agreed to.


----------



## thesolar65

*New Delhi: * Any future purchases of Rafale fighter jets will be through direct negotiations with the French government, said Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today, calling into question an ongoing commercial negotiation with Dassault Aviation for 126 aircraft.

India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Friday announced a plan to buy 36 ready-to-fly jets from Dassault through the government-to-government route to modernise an ageing fleet.
Defence Minister Parrikar said the PM's decision came after the commercial negotiation went into a "vortex," but stopped short of saying the government had scrapped the negotiation for a contract with Dassault, worth up to $20 billion.




On the weekend, Mr Parrikar had said that India will not receive its first Rafale fighter jet for up to two and a half years and tricky issues including pricing must still be worked out. While the order is meant to be delivered as soon as possible, terms and conditions of the deal - estimated at about $4.25 billion - have yet to be worked out.

India and France have negotiated for Rafale fighters for three years. A 2012 agreement to buy 126 jets stalled over cost and a dispute over the assembly of 108 aircraft in India.

Half of India's fighters are due to retire by 2024. Military officials have warned that the air force's reliance on a disparate fleet of Russian-made MiG and French Mirage fighters, along with modern Russian Sukhoi Su-30s, has made it vulnerable.

The Rafale fighters are expected to replace some of the MiGs and Mirage jets.

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## uparyupari

Bhoot Pishach said:


> Apart from Commitment for Long term Support from France for these 36, nothing is clear.
> 
> Egypt are getting their 24 in 5+Billion, will India get 36 in less then 5Billion??
> 
> Let the full picture emerge, this is the price benchmark and most probably will not go down.



Egypt brought 24 Rafale, support equipment,etc. , Missiles and 1 Frigate for 5.9 Million $. 

If you remove the 600 million $ for 1 Frigate, then its 5.3 billion $ for 24 Rafale and its accessories. 

Roughly 220 million $ per aircraft + accessories. Taking Parrikar's 70:30 Split ratio, we get the price of Egypt Rafale at 154 million $ per aircraft. 

Indian deal could be 10-20 million less if we remove kickback and discount due to Govt. to govt. deal. Puts it at 130 million per Rafale. That is a safe bet. 

I quoted 120 million $ due to Modi factor 



Bhoot Pishach said:


> Your quarry in Below quote is been cleared by Yours above post!!!



That is the cost of Rafale produced by HAL. It was supposed to be exorbitant, hence the scraping of the deal.


----------



## PARIKRAMA

*nitin gokhale* @nitingokhale · Apr 10
If Dassault can be persuaded to shift its assembly line to India (not under HAL), it would meet the Make in India requirements too!




*nitin gokhale* @nitingokhale · Apr 10
Just a wild thought. Could it be that the entire Rafale assembly line relocates to India in coming years under the Make in India scheme?



*nitin gokhale* @nitingokhale · Apr 10
The next steps on more Rafales is a matter of detail: sources. Being described as mix of meeting IAF's requirement and that of Make in India




*nitin gokhale* @nitingokhale · Apr 10
Okay so I got it wrong on the numbers. 36 Rafale to be bought in ready to fly condition, announces PM. Price and further details awaited


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## Bang Galore

*Future Rafale deals will also be under govt to govt: Parrikar*






New Delhi, April 13: 
Making it clear that one car cannot travel on two roads at the same time, India today said all future deals for Rafale fighters would also be through government to government route, indicating that the $20 billion MMRCA tender has virtually been scrapped.

The development came after Prime Minister Narendra Modi decided to buy 36 Rafale fighter aircraft in fly-away condition from the French government directly, sidestepping a gruelling three-year negotiations for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft(MMRCA) tender, for which Rafale was shortlisted.

Noting that MMRCA negotiations had entered into a “loop” or a “vortex” with no solution in sight, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said direct negotiations with France will now decide how much more Rafale has to be bought and if it will be under ’Make in India’ programme.

The minister refrained from giving a direct reply to questions whether requirement of Air Force for more MMRCA will be through Rafale or if any other player can come into action.

“Scope was only possible in Government to Government deal. Instead of going through the Request for Proposal (RFP) route where there was lot of confusion and chaos, it was decided that we will go through the G2G route,” he said explaining that 36 Rafale jets would be procured in ready to fly conditions.

He said what has to be done to the rest would de decided after discussions between the two governments.

Asked what it means to the eight-year-old tender process for MMRCA, for which Rafale was shortlisted, Parrikar said it has not been decided yet.

“But if this (G2G) route is followed, obviously, one car cannot travel on two different roads. There were lot of problems on that (tender) road. That is why we have adopted the procedure of direct government to government,” he said briefing reporters at South Block.

Replying to another query if future deals on Rafale would also be through G2G route, Parrikar said, “All deal(s) will be in G2G only. The 36 are in fly—away condition which means they will be manufactured by company in France and supplied in fly away conditions“.

Under the MMRCA contract, while 18 aircraft were to be bought off the shelf, 108 were to be manufactured by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited under a license from Dassault Aviation, the manufacturers of Rafale.

Though Rafale was shortlisted in 2012 after a five-year tending process, a final contract could not be signed due to differences over two issues — pricing and Dassault’s reluctance to stand guarantee for planes manufactured by HAL.

Future Rafale deals will also be under govt to govt: Parrikar | Business Line


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## Bhoot Pishach

uparyupari said:


> Egypt brought 24 Rafale, support equipment,etc. , Missiles and 1 Frigate for 5.9 Million $.
> 
> If you remove the 600 million $ for 1 Frigate, then its 5.3 billion $ for 24 Rafale and its accessories.
> 
> Roughly 220 million $ per aircraft + accessories. Taking Parrikar's 70:30 Split ratio, we get the price of Egypt Rafale at 154 million $ per aircraft.
> 
> Indian deal could be 10-20 million less if we remove kickback and discount due to Govt. to govt. deal. Puts it at 130 million per Rafale. That is a safe bet.
> 
> I quoted 120 million $ due to Modi factor
> 
> That is the cost of Rafale produced by HAL. It was supposed to be exorbitant, hence the scraping of the deal.





Now you are on right track!! After the details are known you will agree that it is about 140million a piece without weapons suit.

Wait and watch because French know that the deal is dead and matter closed.


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## kaykay

sancho said:


> Not going to happen, since the 36 are specifically meant to be diverted from the French order, but that's not possible for the full requirement, nor is the French government able to give us the licence production, ToT or any offset deals, so you can't move around Dassault if you want a licence production or any things produced in India.But one thing is clear, the Indian Government seems to be fed up with Dassault and all the delays they caused.
> The benefits of dealing with the government is mainly costs, since they get them at flyaway costs and can sell them at a lower price than Dassault would ask, since Dassault has to add development costs too. But as said, any order that we make via the French government, would be produced in France, which is against anything we worked since 2007 and would be insane!


Hey but DM clearly said that all further orders will be through govt to govt deal as you cant ride on 2 roads at the same time. He didn't specified any number though.


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## uparyupari

Bhoot Pishach said:


> Now you are on right track!! After the details are known you will agree that it is about 140million a piece without weapons suit.
> 
> Wait and watch because French know that the deal is dead and matter closed.



That is not great because US AF brought F-35 lightning II for 150 million $ per aircraft, this year


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## Corsair

uparyupari said:


> That is not great because US AF brought F-35 lightning II for 150 million $ per aircraft, this year


Again, the data you quote are completely irrelevant.

What does these prices include ?

I can quote you a French Senate report indicating that a Rafale Air unitary cost is around $70Mn.


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## Bhoot Pishach

uparyupari said:


> That is not great because US got. brought F-35 lightning II for 150 million $ per aircraft, this year




Cost of disposing Dead body of MMRCA Deal created by Corrupt Congress. 

This is Funeral Cost.


----------



## Nine Inch Nails

Please please please pretty please,


Buy them with the missiles and other stuff combined.

Please ???

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## SR-91

mad_max said:


> Its personal opinion and I find *nothing to be proud of* , i dont even hang out with many desi's.
> And I will leave when I wish so.



Not Proud of ur heritage.........then what the fcuk u doing on Indian Defence??
There are plenty of chat room, go there.
Even my small cousins, which were born here also, will call u "ABCD". *American Born Confused Desi*. It sounds kiddish, but it definitely applies to u.


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## sancho

kaykay said:


> Hey but DM clearly said that all further orders will be through govt to govt deal as you cant ride on 2 roads at the same time. He didn't specified any number though.



Well, with this government anything is unclear. We have the DM saying one thing, the IAF chief refuting him, HAL officials bypassing him and saying things publically that undermines the MoDs negotiations with Dassault and now the PM on a totally different way too. But as I said, we need to see more details of the intended order, to see what else is possible, for additional orders. Worst case now could be a splitted order by the government, going for 36 + 36 (for example) via French government if the negotiations with Dassault fails and covering the rest of the 126 with LCA or MKIs. That still would give IAF the numbers, but without the highly needed industrial side of the MMRCA deal. It really couldn't be more messed up than it is today.



PARIKRAMA said:


> *nitin gokhale* @nitingokhale · Apr 10
> If Dassault can be persuaded to shift its assembly line to India (not under HAL), it would meet the Make in India requirements too!



What nonsese! IAF and MoD insisted for the last 3 years that HAL remains to be the prime Indian company as stated in the RFP. Dassault after trying to deviate from that, even agreed to it, so that's not the issue anymore. Just shows the confusion the Make in India PR slogan has created, because there is no clear policy behind and basically covers a wide range of possibilities.

P8I deal - offsets that needs to be diverted to India = "Make in India", even if the aircraft as such is produced in the US

TATA / Denel self propelled howitzer = "Make in India", since the foreign howitzer is meant to be produced in India under licence

F18SH airframe parts produced by HAL = "Make in India", since they are produced in India, even if not sold on the Indian market

So make in India, only means that anything must be produced in India, be it a nut or bolt, or a full aircraft, but it doesn't mean that any Make in India deal is equally good for India. 108 Rafales produced by Dassault, with some minor parts produced in India as part of the 30% offset requirement, wouldn't cover any critical techs or systems. But according to the original MMRCA tender, 108 fighters licence produced in India with 50% offset and ToT including radar and engine, would be a huge win for India! Lets hope that the Government still focus on getting the best for the Indian industry and not just a cheap deal.[/QUOTE]

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## uparyupari

Corsair said:


> Again, the data you quote are completely irrelevant.
> 
> What does these prices include ?
> 
> I can quote you a French Senate report indicating that a Rafale Air unitary cost is around $70Mn.



The price I quoted is for just the F-35 aircraft and that information is available on the net.  

You are free to quote the french senate report of 2015. Post the link, I will wait.



sancho said:


> What nonsese! IAF and MoD insisted for the last 3 years that HAL remains to be the prime Indian company as stated in the RFP. Dassault after trying to deviate from that, even agreed to it, so that's not the issue anymore. Just shows the confusion the Make in India PR slogan has created, because there is no clear policy behind and basically covers a wide range of possibilities.
> 
> P8I deal - offsets that needs to be diverted to India = "Make in India", even if the aircraft as such is produced in the US
> 
> TATA / Denel self propelled howitzer = "Make in India", since the foreign howitzer is meant to be produced in India under licence
> 
> F18SH airframe parts produced by HAL = "Make in India", since they are produced in India, even if not sold on the Indian market
> 
> So make in India, only means that anything must be produced in India, be it a nut or bolt, or a full aircraft, but it doesn't mean that any Make in India deal is equally good for India. 108 Rafales produced by Dassault, with some minor parts produced in India as part of the 30% offset requirement, wouldn't cover any critical techs or systems. But according to the original MMRCA tender, 108 fighters licence produced in India with 50% offset and ToT including radar and engine, would be a huge win for India! Lets hope that the Government still focus on getting the best for the Indian industry and not just a cheap deal.



Total RUBBISH. 

"Make in India" is totally different from OFFSET. 

The rules of OFFSET is pretty clear, any deal more than 300 crores needs to have 30% invested back in India. 

First learn the difference.


----------



## PARIKRAMA

*India to Sign Rafale Contract By June*
(Source: Defense-Aerospace.com; published April 13, 2015) 

Compiled by Defense-Aerospace.com

PARIS --- *French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian is to shortly travel to India to iron out the details of the direct sale of 36 Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force, with a view to signing the contract during the Paris air show in mid-June. *

*Negotiations will continue in parallel for the local production of at least 108 Rafale in India, although it can no longer be assumed that state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will be automatically involved. *

*Dassault had originally planned to team with India’s privately-owned Reliance group and, in the wake of the April 10 announcement of a direct purchase, HAL officials made remarkably lackadaisical statements to Indian media. 

“We did not initiate any concrete step at the HAL for manufacturing the planes here”,one HAL official told the India Tribune, adding that “After all, there was never much clarity on whether the deal with Rafale would be finally signed.” The official also revealed that HAL had done remarkably little to prepare for Rafale production: “There was never any question of acquiring land or bring together a team for MMRCA”, he said. *

Given that Egypt, which has just ordered 24 Rafales, and India are both in a hurry to receive their aircraft, France will turn over to them its next 49 delivery slots, and will resume its own deliveries after 2019. Dassault currently builds Rafales at a rate of 11 a year, and needs about three years to double it. 

Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar told reporters in New Delhi on Saturday that "It may take two to two-and-a-half years to get the first plane……Fly-away means not tomorrow, it has to be designed as per India's need, plus there is a requirement of working out the price” which he also said would be about 4 billion euros. 

The production bottleneck could tighten over those three years if, as implied April 12 by French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius, talks with the United Arab Emirates -- which are progressing well, he said – lead to a third Rafale export contract this year. 

This is the passage of the French-India joint communiqué issued on April 10, after visiting Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi met with French President François Hollande: 

_“14. Government of India conveyed to the Government of France that in view of the critical operational necessity for Multirole Combat Aircraft for Indian Air Force, Government of India would like to acquire [36] Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible. 

“The two leaders agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of *a separate process underway* _(Emphasis added—Ed.)_; the delivery would be in time-frame that would be compatible with the operational requirement of IAF; and that the aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on *the same configuration as had been tested and approved by Indian Air Force, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France.*”_ 

As we noted on Friday, a direct purchase will resolve most of the bottlenecks that have blocked the MMRCA contract negotiations over the past three years, and which mostly focus on the price of the 108 Indian-made aircraft and on who would provide their contractual warranty. 

The fundamental problem, however, is that by codifying and closely regulating as many aspects of defense procurement as it could, India’s previous government created a web of red tape so complex and so arcane that mutually-acceptable defense deals have become virtually impossible. 

Another – and so far unsaid - factor is that HAL’s work-force is not yet capable of assembling aircraft as advanced as Rafale, and the Indian government appears to have realized that it was insisting on an expensive and time-consuming industrial fantasy that it would probably be unable to implement in the short term. 

Finally, a direct purchase would elegantly sidestep thorny coproduction issues, give India fixed, firm prices guaranteed by the French government, and relieve the current pressure to conclude a license production agreement that suits neither side. 

India to Sign Rafale Contract By June


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## uparyupari

Bhoot Pishach said:


> Cost of disposing Dead body of MMRCA Deal created by Corrupt Congress.
> 
> This is Funeral Cost.



Bloody expensive funeral for a rotting corpse


----------



## PARIKRAMA

*Rafale, though important, not the only choice*
*New Delhi, April 13

India on Monday announced it has set out on a new path to meet the critical shortage of the Indian Air Force fighter jets. The purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets in a fly-away condition from Dassault Aviation of France, announced during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris on April 10, will form an important choice but will not be the only choice.*

Buying more of the Rafale or ‘making in India’ will depend upon negotiations of the two governments. New Delhi and Paris have announced a government-to-government deal for purchase of 36 of the twin-engine Rafale.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today explained, to the media, how the deal will progress. The global tender to buy a medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) floated in 2007 to buy 126 planes had been shelved. “If this route (government-to-government) is followed, then it’s obvious, a car cannot travel on two different routes. In the tender process there were lot of issues and troubles. The tender has gone into a vortex.” The direct deal is working out to be less costly.

The Rafale was selected as lowest bidder in the tender but issues had cropped up as it did not want to stand guarantee for the 108 planes to be made by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and HAL’s high production costs.

*On being asked if the government would be looking to get the previous target of 126 planes, Parikkar answered: “Not necessarily that will depend on government-to-government discussion. We may not go for full 126. We may decide a different number also.” This was the clear signal that India would be hedging its bets rather than look at Rafale alone. “I will not speculate or reveal any further,” Parrikar said when asked if New Delhi would be looking at other planes of the same kind and capability.
*
*“Even the target of 126 was financially a steep climb,” Parrikar said in note of realism. Each Rafale costs about Rs 760-775 crore. On being asked if Rafale will be made in India, the Defence Minister said, “I have not excluded the Make in India, but that will depend on how we negotiate.”* Under the tender 18 planes were to be in a fly-away condition, the next 18 were to be in the form of completely knocked down kits.

The future path
Parrikar was clear that future shortage of fighter jets that will occur due to phasing out of the MiG 21 and MiG 27 will be met by a mix and match of the Rafale, the Russian built Sukhoi-30 MKI and indigenous Light Combat Aircraft, the Tejas and hinge upon life extension to the MiG-21.

The IAF needs 42 combat squadrons (18 planes in each) to tackle a simultaneous two-front war with Pakistan and China. 

“The LCA will fill in the gaps in six months. Another 72 Sukhoi-30 MKI are on order (in addition to the existing fleet of 198),” he said.* In two to three years some eight new squadrons will join, two of the LCA, two of the Rafale and four of the Sukhoi. In the next 4-5 years we can add six or seven squadrons of the LCA, which is better than the MiG 21.*

*India, he said, was not scaling down from the projection of 42 squadrons. “We can achieve that target over the next 8-10 years. When 42 squadrons were projected the missile technology was low and now we are doing very well in missile technology.”

Rafale, though important, not the only choice*


----------



## Bhoot Pishach

uparyupari said:


> Bloody expensive funeral for a rotting corpse



Corpus after corpus are been disposed off First Congress, then Coal Gate, then 2G/3G, then this MMRCA.

Many more to come.


----------



## Hindustani78

Any future Rafale jet purchases will be govt-to-govt: Parrikar | Zee News
Last Updated: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 20:40


New Delhi: India on Monday said all future negotiations for purchase of French Rafale fighters would be through government to government route, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said today, discarding direct talks with manufacturers.


The disclosure came two days after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft in fly-away condition from the French government directly, sidestepping a gruelling three-year negotiations for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft(MMRCA) tender.

While initially the tender was valued at about USD 10 billion for 126 aircraft, the current price is estimated to be over USD 20 billion, over which India had serious reservations.

Noting that negotiations had entered into a "loop" or a "vortex" with no solution in sight, Parrikar said direct negotiations with France will now decide how much more Rafale aircraft has to be bought and whether it will be under 'Make in India' programme.

The Minister refrained from giving a direct reply to questions whether the requirement of Air Force for more MMRCA will be through Rafale or if any other player can come into action.

*"Scope was only possible in Government to Government deal. Instead of going through the Request for Proposal (RFP) route where there was lot of confusion and chaos, it was decided that we will go through the G2G route," he said explaining that 36 Rafale jets would be procured in ready-to- fly condition.*

He said what has to be done about the rest would de decided after discussions between the two governments.

Asked what it means to the eight-year-old tender process

for MMRCA, for which Rafale was shortlisted, Parrikar said it has not been decided yet.

*"But if this (G2G) route is followed, obviously, one car cannot travel on two different roads. There were a lot of problems on that (tender) road. That is why we have adopted the procedure of direct government to government," he said briefing reporters at South Block.


Replying to another query if future deals on Rafale would also be through G2G route, Parrikar said, "All deal(s) will be in G2G only. The 36 are in fly-away condition which means they will be manufactured by the company in France and supplied in fly away conditions".*

Under the MMRCA contract, while 18 aircraft were to be bought off the shelf, 108 were to be manufactured by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited under a license from Dassault Aviation, the manufacturers of Rafale.

Though Rafale was shortlisted in 2012 after a five-year tending process, a final contract could not be signed due to differences over two issues - pricing and Dassault's reluctance to stand guarantee for planes manufactured by HAL.


----------



## SR-91

uparyupari said:


> That is not great because US AF brought F-35 lightning II for 150 million $ per aircraft, this year



ITS NOT JUST ABOUT THE INITIAL COST OF THE FIGHTER BUT ABOUT ITS............ LIFE-CYCLE COST.


----------



## Bhoot Pishach

SR-91 said:


> ITS NOT JUST ABOUT THE INITIAL COST OF THE FIGHTER BUT ABOUT ITS............ LIFE-CYCLE COST.



Where this LIFE CYCLE COST emerged?


----------



## mad_max

SR-91 said:


> Not Proud of ur heritage.........then what the fcuk u doing on Indian Defence??
> There are plenty of chat room, go there.
> Even my small cousins, which were born here also, will call u "ABCD". *American Born Confused Desi*. It sounds kiddish, but it definitely applies to u.


 I am not born in India so no reason of having any affinity for this corrupt nation and i would be where ever i want to , Thanks



uparyupari said:


> "Is it time for your medication" ends with a question mark "?", not a comma
> 
> Goodbye is a single word  ...and ends with a full stop or a exclamation mark  , not a comma.
> 
> "I dont" is actually "I don't" ........... see the apostrophe ?


Are we having a grammar contest here ?
How about something real ? Sit for a GMAT test to know where you puny Indians stand.


----------



## uparyupari

SR-91 said:


> ITS NOT JUST ABOUT THE INITIAL COST OF THE FIGHTER BUT ABOUT ITS............ LIFE-CYCLE COST.



So what is the life cycle cost ? show some link that gives it and details on how it is calculated.


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## SR-91

uparyupari said:


> So what is the life cycle cost ? show some link that gives it and details on how it is calculated.



Ever heard of Google?

Then Look it up ur damn-self.


----------



## #hydra#

Please close this thread...


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## uparyupari

SR-91 said:


> Ever heard of Google?
> 
> Then Look it up ur damn-self.



LOL. Why should I look it up ? You are the one making the claim. The onus is on you to prove it.


----------



## Ind4Ever

Yup !!


----------



## uparyupari

mad_max said:


> I am not born in India so no reason of having any affinity for this corrupt nation and i would be where ever i want to , Thanks
> 
> Are we having a grammar contest here ?
> How about something real ? Sit for a GMAT test to know where you puny Indians stand.



Its pretty clear you were born in Pakistan  .......... stop lying paindu. 

LOL. I have sat for GMAT and have cracked it. It's pretty simple , CAT is a lot tougher. Not that you would ever know what that is.


----------



## mad_max

uparyupari said:


> Its pretty clear you were born in Pakistan  .......... stop lying paindu.
> 
> LOL. I have sat for GMAT and have cracked it. It's pretty simple , CAT is a lot tougher. Not that you would ever know what that is.


What was your verbal score you MORON ? 
Cracked it then which College you are attending in USA ?
And i dont understand your stupid swearing in Hindi.


----------



## sathya

mad_max said:


> Good luck defending yourself with 4 hard point light chopper with very limited payload and radar capability , seriously your quote suits you comparing a non existent useless chopper to Apaches ?



at the altitudes we are to fight, LCH is specifically designed for this purpose, 

apache can give it MM radar findings to other platforms isnt it?

please be considerate, we pay for the things are *buying* with what we got.. 

if you are a false flagger ..shoo.. shooo!


----------



## Corsair

uparyupari said:


> The price I quoted is for just the F-35 aircraft and that information is available on the net.
> 
> You are free to quote the french senate report of 2015. Post the link, I will wait.



Projet de loi de finances pour 2013 : Défense : équipement des forces

"Le coût total du programme pour l'Etat est de *44,2 Mds €*2011. Le coût unitaire (hors coût de développement) est de 71,2 M €2011 pour le Rafale B (pour 110 avions) de 66,2 M € 2011 pour le Rafale C (pour 118 avions) et de 76,1 M €2011 pour le Rafale M (pour 58 avions)."

Newest report is from 2012. Change remained relatively stable (it's the same standard).


----------



## mad_max

sathya said:


> at the altitudes we are to fight, LCH is specifically designed for this purpose,
> 
> apache can give it MM radar findings to other platforms isnt it?
> 
> please be considerate, we pay for the things are *buying* with what we got..
> 
> if you are a false flagger ..shoo.. shooo!


Are all Indian's Brain dead like you ?


----------



## uparyupari

mad_max said:


> What was your verbal score you MORON ?
> Cracked it then which College you are attending in USA ?
> And i dont understand your stupid swearing in Hindi.



 ... let me correct you again,

"Cracked it then which College you are attending in USA ?" should be "If you Cracked it, then which College are you attending in the US ?"

Observe the following correction "IF", "comma", "are you", "the" and finally a American would say "US" not "USA". 

How does my verbal score matter you Retard  ........ anyone can claim anything on the net. You just proved it.

GMAT scores are valid in India too dumb $hit. Most people who give CAT, give GMAT too as back up.



mad_max said:


> Are all Indian's Brain dead like you ?



Are all Pakistanis liars like you ?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## mad_max

uparyupari said:


> ... let me correct you again,
> 
> "Cracked it then which College you are attending in USA ?" should be "If you Cracked it, then which College are you attending in the US ?"
> 
> Observe the following correction "IF", "comma", "are you", "the" and finally a American would say "US" not "USA".
> 
> How does my verbal score matter you Retard  ........ anyone can claim anything on the net. You just proved it.
> 
> GMAT scores are valid in India too dumb $hit. Most people who give CAT, give GMAT too as back up.


There are rules about writing and saying a country's name , but how would you know ? 
I will ignore you henceforth as you are waste of time.


----------



## sathya

mad_max said:


> Are all Indian's Brain dead like you ?



sorry i didn t read all the pages, when i replied to that post..
its was a mistake on my part , i failed to see its not worth my time.


----------



## uparyupari

mad_max said:


> There are rules about writing and saying a country's name , but how would you know ?
> I will ignore you henceforth as you are waste of time.



LOL. What rules ?  ............ why don't you share it with us ? 

"you are waste of time" ? desi elish


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## Tridibans

mad_max said:


> There are rules about writing and saying a country's name , but how would you know ?
> I will ignore you henceforth as you are waste of time.



Are sure you are an American (as you are shouting and screaming in every thread) because trust me, I have had business contacts with many 'real' American born desis and their English or the style of writing is anything but like yours.

And believe me, I am the last person to troll in a thread like this.


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## mad_max

uparyupari said:


> LOL. What rules ?  ............ why don't you share it with us ?
> 
> "you are waste of time" ? desi elish


I need the weed this old man has been smoking .


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## mad_max

Tridibans said:


> Are sure you are an American (as you are shouting and screaming in every thread) because trust me, I have had business contacts with many 'real' American born desis and their English or the style of writing is anything but like yours.
> 
> And believe me, I am the last person to troll in a thread like this.


Then don't .


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## uparyupari

Tridibans said:


> Are sure you are an American (as you are shouting and screaming in every thread) because trust me, I have had business contacts with many 'real' American born desis and their English or the style of writing is anything but like yours.
> 
> And believe me, I am the last person to troll in a thread like this.



That is the different between a Indian who speaks bad english and a pakistani who speaks bad english. The Indian is aware that he speaks bad english because he sees others speak correctly.

A pakistani just see other illiterates around him and thinks he is king. 

Its fairly obvious who he is and pretty easy to see through his pretence. I was just toying with him.

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## mad_max

Víðarr said:


> I don't know anything about the person you are conversing with so I'll refrain from positing on their origins or nationality, but plenty of American citizens have poor grammatical structuring skills; they would make the kind of mistakes you have corrected. It's not that uncommon, especially in the Southern states, like Virginia where I live.
> 
> Also, saying/writing USA, and I just did - as an American citizen, is common too. I tend to say US or The States, and not USA, but there's plenty of people on either side. Some people go out of their way to say/write USA just to be patriotic.
> 
> Real American's don't give a sh** about anything outside our borders, for the most part, and anyone who cares too much about the workings of another nation is either from that country - living in the US, or not being truthful about their origins.
> 
> Oh, and I didn't read the rest of the thread and this is because? As and American I really don't care about India's dealings with France.


Leave them these are Indians , 90% of them are brain dead.


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## uparyupari

Víðarr said:


> I don't know anything about the person you are conversing with so I'll refrain from positing on their origins or nationality, but plenty of American citizens have poor grammatical structuring skills; they would make the kind of mistakes you have corrected. It's not that uncommon, especially in the Southern states, like Virginia where I live.
> 
> Also, saying/writing USA, and I just did - as an American citizen, is common too. I tend to say US or The States, and not USA, but there's plenty of people on either side. Some people go out of their way to say/write USA just to be patriotic.
> 
> Real Americans don't give a sh** about anything outside our borders, for the most part, and anyone who cares too much about the workings of another nation is either from that country - living in the US, or not being truthful about their origins. That's how you can tell us apart.
> 
> Oh, and I didn't read the rest of the thread and this is because? As and American I really don't care about India's dealings with France. Business is business.



Oh I am very well aware of it. I am also aware of how Indians and Pakistanis talk. Its quite easy to make out the difference to the trained eye. 

I was just teasing him about the grammar, but the real give away is the way he talks.


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## mad_max

uparyupari said:


> Oh I am very well aware of it. I am also aware of how Indians and Pakistanis talk. Its quite easy to make out the difference to the trained eye.
> 
> I was just teasing him about the grammar, but the real give away is the way he talks.


Ok Mr Hitchcock please carry on with your weed and stop quoting me any further.


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## uparyupari

mad_max said:


> Ok Mr Hitchcock please carry on with your weed and stop quoting me any further.



Nah, riding you is fun. I have never rode a donkey before 

PS: This is another pakistani Tell. They are usually the first to run away. An immature american would never run from a troll fight. A mature american will never bother to get involved in one.


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## Chanakya's_Chant

mad_max said:


> Sit for a GMAT test to know where you puny Indians stand.





uparyupari said:


> LOL. I have sat for GMAT and have cracked it. It's pretty simple , CAT is a lot tougher. Not that you would ever know what that is.



Indian students fair better than their American counterparts in GMAT's - with an average score of 577, India ranks #14 among 155 countries against an average American score of 532 ranking #54 in the same list. 

Why 53 Countries Beat The U.S. On The GMAT | Poets and Quants

And yeah - GMAT literally stands nowhere in comparison to CAT!


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## mad_max

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> Indian students fair better than their American counterparts in GMAT's - with an average score of 577, India ranks #14 among 155 countries against an average American score of 532 ranking #54 in the same list.
> 
> Why 53 Countries Beat The U.S. On The GMAT | Poets and Quants
> 
> And yeah - GMAT literally stands nowhere in comparison to CAT!


Do some research on verbal section as well


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## uparyupari

Chanakya's_Chant said:


> Indian students fair better than their American counterparts in GMAT's - with an average score of 577, India ranks #14 among 155 countries against an average American score of 532 ranking #54 in the same list.
> 
> Why 53 Countries Beat The U.S. On The GMAT | Poets and Quants
> 
> And yeah - GMAT literally stands nowhere in comparison to CAT!



I know that too, another tell he was a pakistani and not an Indian.


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## Zhukov

whaa?
Attack helicopters compared to fighter jets?????
Are you high man?


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## Assault Rifle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/587640001078263808

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## maniac@666

uparyupari said:


> LOL. Its MUCH more than just typos
> 
> IF you knew English, you would have realized it.


leave him bro or sister he's just like @mike2000 or @mike2000 is back ,he's much worse than me,have you gone through his post's and he claim's to be British you ought to have real nerves to believe him and they say it's their first language and our's second.


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## uparyupari

maniac@666 said:


> leave him bro or sister he's just like @mike2000 or @mike2000 is back ,he's much worst than me,have gone through his post's and he claim's to be British you ought to have real nerves to believe him and they say it's their first language and our's second.



No mike2000 is a brit. He talks like one. But I am not sure which thread you are referring too. Can you point ?


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## duhastmish

Ndtv also have this news. And about 2 hour back we discussed it as well on another thread that mrca is off .

And only 36 jets for now! Rest increase in order to be decided later.


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## Suman

mad_max said:


> High altitude alright but not all warfare will be on high altitude , you would need Heavy gunships like Apache in big numbers in open terrain warfare involving tanks.
> 
> 
> So shall i dance , i have never been to Gujarat and never wish to , i am born american and will die american , dont have much affinity towards India.


Thank You, we don't need you anyway


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## maniac@666

uparyupari said:


> No mike2000 is a brit. He talks like one. But I am not sure which thread you are referring too. Can you point ?


no he ain't any Brit,that's i am dead sure,his writing style is a dead giveaway,i myself is not proficient in English but have interacted with lot's of Brits due to nature of my work.Cant say about any specific post's but his all the post's are of full of grammatical mistakes and they are not typos,thought it would be easy for you to find out.


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## C130

how embarrassing for India 

a waste of time and effort. in hindsight just buying directly from the vendor would of saved time,money, and lot less drama  and here we are this is exactly what is happening.


the buying of 36 Rafales is just to save face IMO though India does need jets badly, but this isn't what they was expecting.

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## uparyupari

Corsair said:


> Projet de loi de finances pour 2013 : Défense : équipement des forces
> 
> "Le coût total du programme pour l'Etat est de *44,2 Mds €*2011. Le coût unitaire (hors coût de développement) est de 71,2 M €2011 pour le Rafale B (pour 110 avions) de 66,2 M € 2011 pour le Rafale C (pour 118 avions) et de 76,1 M €2011 pour le Rafale M (pour 58 avions)."
> 
> Newest report is from 2012. Change remained relatively stable (it's the same standard).



Can you post the link in "anglais" ?

Saudi Arabia signed a 6.5 billion $ deal for 72 Eurofighters in 2009. That is 90 million $ per aircraft.


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## longewala

mad_max said:


> What was your verbal score you MORON ?
> Cracked it then which College you are attending in USA ?
> And i dont understand your stupid swearing in Hindi.


Give it up.
This is all very tangential, but most of your super-duper advanced americans would wet their pants if they had to compete against indians in any GMAT / CAT / JEE

And there is a good reason why India will never rely on Apaches alone - its because Americans are untrustworthy dogs. You talk of democracy and human rights and support the worst mass murderers and dictators, we haven't forgotten your sanctions, your arming of Pakistan repeatedly since 1947 and worst of all, the threats to attack India in support of a country whose army was raping and murdering millions in Bangladesh.

Simple - our relationship is business, and we want to get any technologies which will fill gaps, but we will never be in a position of dependence on such an unscrupulous, nasty country for anything critical.


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## mad_max

longewala said:


> Give it up.
> This is all very tangential, but most of your super-duper advanced americans would wet their pants if they had to compete against indians in any GMAT / CAT / JEE
> 
> And there is a good reason why India will never rely on Apaches alone - its because Americans are untrustworthy dogs. You talk of democracy and human rights and support the worst mass murderers and dictators, we haven't forgotten your sanctions, your arming of Pakistan repeatedly since 1947 and worst of all, the threats to attack India in support of a country whose army was raping and murdering millions in Bangladesh.
> 
> Simple - our relationship is business, and we want to get any technologies which will fill gaps, but we will never be in a position of dependence on such an unscrupulous, nasty country for anything critical.


Arms transfer to Pakistan will stop in coming years when Republican President takes charge.


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## janon

Oh praise the lord, if it is true.

The cost to setup facilities at HAL and paying for ToT amounted to about 8 billion dollars, which is why the deal was becoming so expensive. It was a mistake to club together the urgent need for beefing up numbers and the need to transfer technology and start a production line. Now we will get the Rafaes at way less cost, and much quicker.

It's not like ToT would have brought any earth shaking capabilities anyway - we have manufactured thousands of fighters before, including the venerable MKI, and we are still struggling with Tejas. What use has all that ToT been in the past? Also, if the facilities for production existed already in India, then "make in India" makes sense. But what is the point of spending an additional 8 billion dollars, just to make in India, when much less money can get us the birds, and the same manufacturing talent can work on Tejas instead?

Yes, we need to give a boost to our aviation industry, both public and private. The best way to do that is to build large number of Tejas, and later work on the AMCA.

I hope though that the follow on order for Rafale will be large, and not in piecemeal fashion.


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## Nine Inch Nails

We need tejas in large numbers. Or the gripen.

Anything small cheap and capable of a good dogfight. And non Russian.

No gripen, so see the writing on the wall.

Open two lines for tejas.

Please do it parikar sir.



C130 said:


> how embarrassing for India
> 
> a waste of time and effort. in hindsight just buying directly from the vendor would of saved time,money, and lot less drama  and here we are this is exactly what is happening.
> 
> 
> the buying of 36 Rafales is just to save face IMO though India does need jets badly, but this isn't what they was expecting.



IMHO too. Just face saving. What to do ? French bent the rules. They asked almost double for the latest rafale ! Than the rfp. No go. Not with this govt.

I was a big proponent of super hornet. Sad I'm not the DM of India.

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## Chinese-Dragon

janon said:


> It's not like ToT would have brought any earth shaking capabilities anyway - we have manufactured thousands of fighters before, including the venerable MKI, and we are still struggling with Tejas. What use has all that ToT been in the past?



Very true.

ToT never gives the best technology, they give you stuff which you can easily develop yourselves in the same time frame.

Well it makes sense, they won't give away the golden egg (their best tech) because then they will have no future sales.

I don't know why France won't lower the ToT price though, do they really think they can demand such huge amounts while keeping all their best tech to themselves?


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## maniac@666

mad_max said:


> Arms transfer to Pakistan will stop in coming years when Republican President takes charge.


bro your username is mad_max but by the way you post,i'm sure you are max_mad.


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## JanjaWeed

There's a reason why Manohar Parikkar was brought in... & the result is there for everyone to see. This guy means business.. & wants to get things done, if it means cutting through all those red tapes.. so be it!

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## sancho

janon said:


> It's not like ToT would have brought any earth shaking capabilities anyway



Isn't it? Why do you think TATA is so fast in producing Sikorsky helicopter parts? Because of proper transfer on know how! Why is was bharat forge suddenly capable of building howitzers? Because they took over a foreign company including their know how. Why are we dependent on the Israelis for A2G modes of a 4th gen puls doppler radar? Because we lack the know how! Why do we struggle with developing a subsonic cruise missile, when we jointly develop of Russia for super and even hypersonic cruise missiles? Because we lack the know how! Why did the Chinese needed so much help from the Ukraine to get their carrier running and navalise their fighters? Because they lacked the know how!

Also ToT is not = ToT! ToT of assembly BARS radar kits or replacing some parts of in with parts produced in India, is not the same as getting full ToT of a modern AESA radar from Thales or Euroradar. The level critical ToT we had in the past was minimal, especially in the Mig years. The MKI deal was the first one, that actually made a difference and still we didn't get critical radar or engine techs, which is exactly what this deal was about to change. The failures of HAL and later GTRE to develop indigenous radars and embarrassment of Kaveri engine, should tell you were we stand on critical technology, just as the fact that our contribution to joint developments is so low. If we remain in the naive world of, we can do it alone, we will waste another 2 decades to achieve, what the world has today. We need input of foreign know how, the one way or the other and that's also why we inplemented the offset policies, why we changed policies to get foreign vendors in JVs with Indian once, or why we want to make India to a production hub for foreign arms and techs. To push Indias industry ahead with the know how we gather and the MMRCA with the highest offset and ToT requirement, was the biggest chance to get to these critical techs on our terms, rather than beg foreigners again like in the LCA development, when our industry failed with their developments.
And now look at AMCA, we already search for a foreign engine supplier, not even a partner for an indigenous engine development, so we already have given up that hope. IRST / optronics know how was possible trough MMRCA, just as TVC or latest avionics and EW capabilities. The only other choice to get the same is, as we recently heared, by GTRE getting into a JV with Klimov for TVC, which again is ToT, or as we did it with the LCA nose and refuelling probe, just import them and licence produce them "under ToT".

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## Donatello

sancho said:


> Isn't it? Why do you think TATA is so fast in producing Sikorsky helicopter parts? Because of proper transfer on know how! Why is was bharat forge suddenly capable of building howitzers? Because they took over a foreign company including their know how. Why are we dependent on the Israelis for A2G modes of a 4th gen puls doppler radar? Because we lack the know how! Why do we struggle with developing a subsonic cruise missile, when we get know how of Russia for super and even hypersonic cruise missiles? Because we lack the know how! Why did the Chinese needed so much help from the Ukraine to get their carrier running and navalise their fighters? Because they lacked the know how!
> 
> Also ToT is not = ToT! ToT of assembly BARS radar kits or replacing some parts of in with parts produced in India, is not the same as getting full ToT of a modern AESA radar from Thales or Euroradar. The level critical ToT we had in the past was minimal, especially in the Mig years. The MKI deal was the first one, that actually made a difference and still we didn't get critical radar or engine techs, which is exactly what this deal was about to change. The failures of HAL and later GTRE to develop indigenous radars and embarrassment of Kaveri engine, should tell you were we stand on critical technology, just as the fact that our contribution to joint developments is so low. If we remain in the naive world of, we can do it alone, we will waste another 2 decades to achieve, what the world has today. We need input of foreign know how, the one way or the other and that's also why we inplemented the offset policies, why we changed policies to get foreign vendors in JVs with Indian once, or why we want to make India to a production hub for foreign arms and techs. To push Indias industry ahead with the know how we gather and the MMRCA with the highest offset and ToT requirement, was the biggest chance to get to these critical techs on our terms, rather than beg foreigners again like in the LCA development, when our industry failed with their developments.
> And now look at AMCA, we already search for a foreign engine supplier, not even a partner for an indigenous engine development, so we already have given up that hope. IRST / optronics know how was possible trough MMRCA, just as TVC or latest avionics and EW capabilities. The only other choice to get the same is, as we recently heared, by GTRE getting into a JV with Klimov for TVC, which again is ToT, or as we did it with the LCA nose and refuelling probe, just import them and licence produce them "under ToT".



Some sane input there, but MMRCA ToT was also going to be Assembling etc......perhaps 100 percent in more non-critical areas, like CFRP panels, pipes, hoses, harness etc. You think French would simply handover the blueprints for the Turbine blades? Or the process nodes for the FSO optoelectronics?


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## sancho

Donatello said:


> Some sane input there, but MMRCA ToT was also going to be Assembling etc......perhaps 100 percent in more non-critical areas, like CFRP panels, pipes, hoses, harness etc. You think French would simply handover the blueprints for the Turbine blades? Or the process nodes for the FSO optoelectronics?



No it wasn't at least for a lot of credible stuff. The IRST for example is not in production anymore, but was a requirement of IAF, so Thales has to divert the full ToT to Samtel, to produce it in India, not just assemble kits of parts produced abroad. Similar was stated for AESA radar or a credible ammount of the engine and that's what makes the tender so important, not only the number of fighters, but the level of industrial imput India could get. That's also the reason why US ToT was not competetive with the European proposals, or why US always struggle in Indian deals, to even comply to offsets, let alone ToT. India today is in the situation to demand much more than they could in the past, we are just too stupid to use that to our advantage!

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## janon

sancho said:


> Isn't it? Why do you think TATA is so fast in producing Sikorsky helicopter parts? Because of proper transfer on know how! Why is was bharat forge suddenly capable of building howitzers? Because they took over a foreign company including their know how. Why are we dependent on the Israelis for A2G modes of a 4th gen puls doppler radar? Because we lack the know how! Why do we struggle with developing a subsonic cruise missile, when we jointly develop of Russia for super and even hypersonic cruise missiles? Because we lack the know how! Why did the Chinese needed so much help from the Ukraine to get their carrier running and navalise their fighters? Because they lacked the know how!



Well your own rhetorical questions can actually validate my point. Why are we struggling on a subsonic cruise missile, despite codeveloping a world class Brahmos? How did the know-how help? Why are we struggling to make a radar for a 4th gen aircraft, despite all the foreign aircrafts we have manufactured, including the sophisticated MKIs with ToT? Why did Bharat Forge need to acquire the company itself, rather than pay and buy "ToT"? If I buy the entire Boeing company tomorrow, I will be producing Super Hornets - not because I became a lot more knowledgeable, but because I bought the frigging company. Tata producing helicopter "parts" is in no way comparable to making an entire modern fighter jt. The difference in complexity is incomparable.

It is true that we lack the know-how in many areas - nobody is disputing that. The only point of contention is whether this uber expensive "ToT" will enable us to become on par with the entity we are purchasing the said ToT from. You can purchase the blueprints for Rafale, you can learn how to build the radar - but what you cannot do is learn how they learnt it in the first place. What was going through the minds of the designers when they were designing the airframe? What challenges did they face, and how were they overcome? How was the composition of the composite material determined? How was it determined that a particular metal piece had to be tempered at a particular temperature? You can learn what temperature to forge it at, but not how that knowledge was gained. You cannot purchase or download the experience and brains of all the scientists and engineers who worked on it, including their memories.

How do you think we navalized a fighter sooner than China did? Because we decided to do it, a long time back. If we were purchasing F-18s or Rafale-Ms at exhorbitant prices for ToT so that we could learn to navalize the Tejas, the Tejas would not have a naval version toda. Only by doing it ourselves were we ble to do it at all. Same for China - they did not simply pay for some ToT to Ukraine and magically get naval flankers - they did it themselves.

By paying 8 billion dollars for Rafale's ToT, we are not going to be able to make a world beating new aircraft in future. We can only do that by saving that 8 billion and doing all the research ourselves. There are no shortcuts in learning, money cannot make you smart. Just one or two billions into the LCA program and another 6 billion into a future program would make us a competent aerospace power in future. Spending that much money on the Rafale will not.

So buy the Rafales, or assemble them here from knock down kits, and save all the money spent for "ToT" to make our own aviation industry at home. BTW that's what China did as well - they didn't simply throw cash at Russia or Ukraine and get to the position they are at today - throughout the 80s and 90s they churned out mediocre quality fighters by themselves, and also spent a lot domestic research. Look at where they are today.

Your examples actually validate my point, not yours.

To keep it simple, *by paying for knowledge, we can learn what they know - but we cannot learn how they know what they know*. And that is what will help us in future research, not just the knowledge of making what they have already made.

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## Providence

For ****'s sake some Indian should file a PIL and pursue the case with DRDO. What are the KPIs to measure the efficacy of this parrot called ToT ? 

High time some guy with a grasp of project management is recruited by the drdo dodos !


----------



## PARIKRAMA

*Holland: the sale of additional Rafale to India "will be discussed"*
The Point - Published 14.04.2015 on 14:41 - Changed the 14.04.2015 at 14:46

*Negotiations are continuing on the original agreement which covers the purchase of 126 Rafale, the majority of which had to be manufactured in India.*

*The sale of additional Rafale to India, after an initial contract for 36 aircraft already passed, "will be discussed," but "our partner trust us", said Tuesday the president François Hollande, after recently sowed doubt by New Delhi about it. "The Rafale were sold within a framework that will be negotiated," said Francois Hollande, during a trip to Figeac (Lot). "It was necessary to do very quickly with the 36," said he explained with reference to the announcement made Friday by the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the acquisition of 36 Dassault Rafale. These 36 aircraft will be manufactured in France. Along with the sale of the 36 Rafale, negotiations are continuing on the original agreement which covers the purchase of 126 Rafale, the majority had to be manufactured in India. "For the rest, it will be discussed with our partner," but "he trusted us," continued Francois Hollande, following statements of India casting doubt on the future of this giant contract.*

*A contract close to 20 billion euros*
The Indian defense minister Manohar Parrikar indicated Monday night that the negotiations would not only after a call for tenders, as for the first 36 aircraft, but "government to government". "The goal could be achieved in a government to government agreement," he said, estimating that the negotiations launched in 2012 were taken in a "whirlwind" no solution in sight. The initial contract for 126 Rafale stated that 108 of them are manufactured in India, but the discussions were skating on the overall cost of the devices as part of an innovative technological transfers. Initially estimated at 12 billion euros, the contract would be closer to 20 billion euros, the cost of production of 108 Rafale products in India proving higher than aircraft assembled in France. In contrast, 36 Rafale, the sale was announced Friday, will come out of the Dassault plants in France.

*The sale "is excellent for French industry, but at the same time, we must respect our Indian partner" and "see what part will be manufactured in France and how much will be manufactured in India," added the president Hollande, during a visit of advanced aeronautical industrial sites in Figeac.*


Hollande : la vente de Rafale supplémentaires à l'Inde "va être débattue" - Le Point


*MMRCA deal may be renegotiated through G2G route: Ex-IAF chief*

Welcoming the government's decision to buy 36 Rafale planes, former Indian Air Force (IAF) chief P V Naik today said India should not throw the deal for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) into the trash and renegotiate it through Government-to- Government (G2G) route. 

"I don't think the (MMRCA) deal is dead. The deal will probably be renegotiated, on a Government-to-Government basis if the price is right," the retired Air Chief Marshal told PTI in an interview. 

It was during Naik's tenure as IAF chief that India shortlisted Rafale jet and Eurofighter Typhoon in July 2010 after French firm Dassault Aviation emerged as the lowest bidder. The price negotiations by Ministry of Defence then showed Rafale emerge as the lowest bidder (L1). 

Prime Minister Narendra Modi, during his visit to France, announced India would buy 36 Rafale planes from Dassault in fly-away condition through G2G route. 

"First of all, purchase of the 36 aircraft outright is a good thing. This is a positive step. The deal will be renegotiated on a G2G basis, like we have been doing with the US so far. We haven't done a G2G deal with any other country," Naik said. 

"Don't throw it (MMRCA deal) into the trash," he said, adding this means, whatever price that (French) air force gets at, you (India) will also get it at the same price. 

"They say the 36 aircraft will come (to India) in two years. If that happens, it is a good thing. After signing the contract, it takes minimum three years. Probably, we might gain a year or so," the former IAF chief said. 

He said people should not get worried about the deal. "You will get the number of aircraft needed." 

Asked what more does the Indian Government need to do to expedite the MMRCA deal, Naik said, "They will have to sit here at the ministry level, approve of the G2G deal. 

"I am not aware what transpired during the (Indo-French) discussions. If they have agreed to G2G, then there will be several other items on the basket," the former Air Chief Marshal said. 

To a query on his views on the status of overall defence procurement for IAF, he said, "it (procurement) is lagging. 

"This (MMRCA) is the biggest deal. It has been in the works for several years. Other things are on track, like additional AWACs, indigenisation and refuelling aircraft." 

Drawing the analogy that one car cannot travel on two roads at the same time, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar indicated yesterday the USD 20 billion MMRCA tender may be scrapped.

MMRCA deal may be renegotiated through G2G route: Ex-IAF chief | Business Standard News

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## PARIKRAMA

*Previous Government Did Not Think the Rafale Jet Deal Through: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to NDTV*

*Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has said that the decision to buy 126 fighter jets from France cleared by the previous Congress-led government, was not thought through properly. The purchase, he said, should not have been made through a global tender, but through a government to government deal.*

"This is much a better deal," he said in an exclusive interview to NDTV, referring to India's new plan to buy 36 ready-to-fly Rafale jets from France's Dassault Aviation, announced last week by Prime Minster Narendra Modi.

The Defence Minister indicated that the cost per jet would now be cheaper. Buying "126 (fighters) would cost India about Rs. 1 lakh crore. Can we spend so much money on a high-end fighter," Mr Parrikar asked, adding, "you don't agree to a 1 lakh crore deal" without working out how and from where the money will come."

About his predecessor, the Congress' AK Antony, the longest-serving Defence Minister the country has had, Mr Parrikar said, "There was hardly any supervision or control. A Defence Minister needs to monitor but that was hardly the case." He said the Modi government would now review acquisitions worth Rs. 5,40,000 crore cleared by the previous government.

The BJP government, the minister said, will first acquire only equipment and weapon systems that are critical for the three forces. "We are in the process of weeding out the rest."

India, said the minister, fast-tracked the purchase of 36 Rafale fighters - two squadrons - as the Indian Air Force desperately needed additional jets to plug critical gaps. The original agreement of 2012 to buy 126 jets, only 18 of them in fly-away condition, was stalled for three years over cost and a dispute over the assembly of the other 108 aircraft in India.

"I think we need to address this problem" Mr Parrikar said and suggested filling the gaps with more indigenous LCA or Light Combat Aircraft manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. "Today we have only 40 LCAs, why can't we have 100 of these?" he said.

How many each of the Rafale and Tejas fighters will be deployed will depend on negotiations with the French government on any further purchase from Dassault, he said.

The government, Mr Parrikar said, wants a fighter jet manufacturer to set up a facility in India which "may not necessarily be Dassault."

Previous Government Did Not Think the Rafale Jet Deal Through: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to NDTV

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## Hindustani78

Private sector to gain, Rafale deal likely to have a 30% offset clause - The Economic Times

By PTI | 14 Apr, 2015, 06.30PM IST 

NEW DELHI: The over $ 6 billion deal for *36 Rafale jets is likely to have a 30 per cent offset clause valuing to nearly $ 2 billion that the Indian private industry will be eyeing. *

Even though speculation had risen whether the clause would be included in the government to government deal, *Indian as well as French sources said that there will at least 30 per cent offset clause. *


*Offset policy was first introduced as part of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), 2005, under which a foreign company has to invest back a portion of the deal into India. *

*The DPP, 2013 indicates that the objective of the Defence Offset Policy is to leverage capital acquisitions to develop Indian defence industry by fostering development of internationally competitive enterprises. *

It also aims to do it by augmenting capacity for research, design and development related to defence products and services besides encouraging development of synergistic sectors like civil aerospace and internal security. 

*The offset clause will work out to be around $ 2 billion. During the government to government talks, the offset obligation will also be finalised, defence sources said. *


*They pegged the deal at over $ 6 billion including the cost of the 36 aircraft, armament and spares. *

Sources pointed out that *previous government to government sale route also had offset clauses. *

*"The private sector will substantially gain from the offset part of the Rafale deal,"* a senior executive of a 
leading corporate group said. 

The criticism against the *government to government deal between India and France for 36 Rafale jets was that it does not bring manufacturing and jobs to India. *

Sources said the government is likely to insist Dassault Aviation,* the manufacturers of Rafale, to rope in the Indian private sector, a global chain supplier to Dassault and its associates. *

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had yesterday insisted that the deal for 36 Rafale jets does not mean that 'Make in Indian' programme has been set aside. 

He said everything will depend on the quantum of the jets that India would eventually be interested in, besides the 36 and the terms and conditions agreed to once the negotiations start.

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## Bang Galore

> _Buying "126 (fighters) would cost India about Rs. 1 lakh crore. Can we spend so much money on a high-end fighter," Mr Parrikar asked, adding, "you don't agree to a 1 lakh crore deal" without working out how and from where the money will come."_



I have been saying this for ages while a lot of people here acted as if money grew on trees. I pointed out that non-capping of the price has led us into this ridiculous position where we now have had to buy Rafale in smaller quantities directly. Had we capped the price & asked everyone participating to give their best offers within that limit, we would them have been able to get a decent comparison between competing offers instead of this disgusting taste in the mouth situation we find ourselves in. Can't think of anyone, supporter or opponent of the Rafale deal, who is happy with this compromise decision and this situation.


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## Luca1

janon said:


> Well your own rhetorical questions can actually validate my point. Why are we struggling on a subsonic cruise missile, despite codeveloping a world class Brahmos? How did the know-how help? Why are we struggling to make a radar for a 4th gen aircraft, despite all the foreign aircrafts we have manufactured, including the sophisticated MKIs with ToT? Why did Bharat Forge need to acquire the company itself, rather than pay and buy "ToT"? If I buy the entire Boeing company tomorrow, I will be producing Super Hornets - not because I became a lot more knowledgeable, but because I bought the frigging company. Tata producing helicopter "parts" is in no way comparable to making an entire modern fighter jt. The difference in complexity is incomparable.
> 
> It is true that we lack the know-how in many areas - nobody is disputing that. The only point of contention is whether this uber expensive "ToT" will enable us to become on par with the entity we are purchasing the said ToT from. You can purchase the blueprints for Rafale, you can learn how to build the radar - but what you cannot do is learn how they learnt it in the first place. What was going through the minds of the designers when they were designing the airframe? What challenges did they face, and how were they overcome? How was the composition of the composite material determined? How was it determined that a particular metal piece had to be tempered at a particular temperature? You can learn what temperature to forge it at, but not how that knowledge was gained. You cannot purchase or download the experience and brains of all the scientists and engineers who worked on it, including their memories.
> 
> How do you think we navalized a fighter sooner than China did? Because we decided to do it, a long time back. If we were purchasing F-18s or Rafale-Ms at exhorbitant prices for ToT so that we could learn to navalize the Tejas, the Tejas would not have a naval version toda. Only by doing it ourselves were we ble to do it at all. Same for China - they did not simply pay for some ToT to Ukraine and magically get naval flankers - they did it themselves.
> 
> By paying 8 billion dollars for Rafale's ToT, we are not going to be able to make a world beating new aircraft in future. We can only do that by saving that 8 billion and doing all the research ourselves. There are no shortcuts in learning, money cannot make you smart. Just one or two billions into the LCA program and another 6 billion into a future program would make us a competent aerospace power in future. Spending that much money on the Rafale will not.
> 
> So buy the Rafales, or assemble them here from knock down kits, and save all the money spent for "ToT" to make our own aviation industry at home. BTW that's what China did as well - they didn't simply throw cash at Russia or Ukraine and get to the position they are at today - throughout the 80s and 90s they churned out mediocre quality fighters by themselves, and also spent a lot domestic research. Look at where they are today.
> 
> Your examples actually validate my point, not yours.
> 
> To keep it simple, *by paying for knowledge, we can learn what they know - but we cannot learn how they know what they know*. And that is what will help us in future research, not just the knowledge of making what they have already made.



Totally true, you learn by trying, not by others providing the results.


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## skybolt



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## Suman

skybolt said:


>


True, Thank you


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## skybolt

*

*

*India Makes it Official: The 'Mother of All Defense Deals' Is Dead*
India’s $20 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft tender is no more
By Ankit Panda
April 14, 2015

India Makes it Official: The ‘Mother of All Defense Deals’ Is Dead | The Diplomat


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## Stephen Cohen

We will get MORE RAFALES ; How we get it is just a matter of detail

36 is just peanuts ; we need more



Bang Galore said:


> I have been saying this for ages while a lot of people here acted as if money grew on trees. I pointed out that non-capping of the price has led us into this ridiculous position where we now have had to buy Rafale in smaller quantities directly. Had we capped the price & asked everyone participating to give their best offers within that limit, we would them have been able to get a decent comparison between competing offers instead of this disgusting taste in the mouth situation we find ourselves in. Can't think of anyone, supporter or opponent of the Rafale deal, who is happy with this compromise decision and this situation.




The orignal RFP route though an IDEAL thing to do with offsets and TOT
but was not commercially viable

The discussions went on into several previously *uncharted territories *

The whole thing became a complex WEB of offsets ; TOT ; guarentees ;
workmanship and technical abilities of HAL
labour costs ; supervision ; management control ; QC /QA of HAL

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## PARIKRAMA

*Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm - Mannu Pubby*

NEW DELHI: The government could ask France's Dassault Aviation to rope in an Indian partner to jointly manufacture the next batch of its Rafale fighters in the country as a condition for landing the remainder of the contract, a move it hopes will fulfil the 'Make in India' dimension that could not be met in its off-the-shelf purchase of 36 planes last week.
*
Sources familiar with the matter said there were initial discussions in the government on whether to press the French firm to sign up an Indian partner and form a joint venture company in which the local firm could own up to 51 per cent stake and this firm could execute the contract to supply the remaining planes.*

The sources insisted that these were initial discussions and there was no certainty a final plan would have these contours.

*The Indian partner, according to these discussions, would not be restricted to state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), potentially opening up the field for private players to step into the lucrative defence and aerospace business. A consortium approach, in which a group of Indian private companies come together with HAL to constitute the Indian ownership, was also being spoken of during these discussions, the sources said, adding that the entire plan was nebulous and could undergo major changes.*

The matter will be taken forward after Prime Minister Narendra Modi returns from his foreign visit, the sources said. They requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

The selection of Dassault to supply 126 Rafale fighters to the Indian Air Force took place during the UPA regime in 2012, but the deal got bogged down by controversies and political indecision. After weeks of uncertainty and amid intense speculation that the BJPled administration could even cancel the contract, Modi, during a visit to France last week, pulled a surprise and signed the purchase of 36 planes off-the-shelf in a direct government-to-government deal, effectively junking the old UPA deal while retaining the vendor.

However, the official announcement last week made no mention about what happens to the remaining planes, prompting speculation in some quarters whether the government could look at fresh competitive bidding.

But sources said the thinking in South Block was that it did not make sense to buy planes from a new vendor as that would saddle the Air Force with a 'mix and match fleet' and having to operate multiple platforms, which was cumbersome and operationally inefficient. Besides a fresh competitive bidding scenario would take years, severely delaying the Indian Air Force's plans to raise its flying strength up to 42 fighter squadrons.



This will effectively rule out the possibility of fresh competitive bidding for the remaining contract, which was also indicated by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Monday when he said a government-to-government route was better to acquire strategic defence platforms rather than competitive,global bidding.

*NUMBER COULD BE REVISITED*

*Sources said that while the original requirement of 126 fighters for the air force stands, this number could be revisited in the coming days after a reassessment. A higher number of planes could encourage the French side, which could otherwise have reservations on ceding the controlling stake in the Indian joint venture, to set up a production base for the jets. Such an approach could counter criticism that the new Rafale deal does not give much to India in terms of technology transfer and production capabilities. Going about the remainder of the contract though the joint venture route could give the Indian private sector a chance to partake of the government's defence spending and develop manufacturing expertise in an area that has largely been the preserve of staterun firms.*

The scrapping of the old Rafale deal, along with the cancellations of similar projects, is an indication that the L1, or lowest bidder based competitive bidding process, which was initiated by the UPA regime is on the way out. Some defence experts say the lengthy process of global competition has led to the stalling of many critical military acquisitions after these got bogged down by accusations of manipulations in testing or discrepancies in commercial proposals.

Officials also say that the view within the government is that the L1 system - choosing the cheapest product after it passes the basic technical evaluation - is not ideally suited to acquiring strategic and cutting edge systems for the military.

While the L1 process was promoted by the UPA government, most military acquisition plans did not see the light of day under the process. These include two attempts to buy light helicopters for the army, a proposal to purchase aerial refuelers for the air force and plans to acquire much-needed artillery systems.

The trend to cancel or do away with projects under competitive bidding continues with the NDA government with the cancelling of the light helicopter contract last year that saw Eurocopter and Kamov making it to the final zone. Most mega projects cleared by the UPA - C-17 transporters, P-8I planes for the Navy, C-130J special operations aircraft - were government-to-government purchases.


The last large tender cleared by competitive bidding was to purchase trainer aircraft from Swiss firm Pilatus in 2012. However, that too ran into trouble as the BJP government reduced the order and gave a large chunk of it to HAL.



Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm - The Economic Times


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## uparyupari

How wonderful that now "Opinions" gets to masquerade as "news".

Indian Media is truly a wonder.

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## skybolt

*MMRCA deal: India to scrap $20 billion mega project for 126 Rafale fighter jets*
Rajat Pandit,TNN | Apr 14, 2015, 12.47 AM IST

MMRCA deal: India to scrap $20 billion mega project for 126 Rafale fighter jets - The Times of India


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## Bang Galore

Stephen Cohen said:


> We will get  MORE RAFALES ; How we get it is just a matter of detail
> 
> 36 is just peanuts ; we need more



Unfortunately they cost quite a bit more than peanuts......






> The orignal RFP route though an IDEAL thing to do with offsets and TOT
> but was not commercially viable
> 
> The discussions went on into several previously *uncharted territories *
> 
> The whole thing became a complex WEB of offsets ; TOT ; guarentees ;
> workmanship and technical abilities of HAL
> labour costs ; supervision ; management control ; QC /QA of HAL



The main reason for the collapse is clear. It is none of the things you mentioned, while all of them had a secondary factor to play, the main one was quite simply the prohibitive cost of the plane itself. Even without all the _tot _& other issues, the purchase of the aircraft in a fly away condition directly from the French is still quite expensive. The truth is something that has been known for quite a while & I have hammered about it here for the last year atleast. - there is simply no money for 126 of these aircrafts. Which is pretty much what Manohar Parrikar said. It has a debilitating effect on the rest of the essential purchases we require to do, if we buy this aircraft in the numbers originally sought. Anyone who thinks that dealing with the French is a cake walk should seriously check their noggins for brain activity. Whether it is the submarines, the M2k upgradation, the nuclear plant deal or the Rafale buy, the french are anything but pleasant to do business with. This is just another instance in a series of such instances. We may have been caught in a bind here and may end up buying some more aircraft but you can certain that we are getting ripped off big time any which way.

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## Donatello

Bang Galore said:


> Unfortunately they cost quite a bit more than peanuts......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The main reason for the collapse is clear. It is none of the things you mentioned, while all of them had a secondary factor to play, the main one was quite simply the prohibitive cost of the plane itself. Even without all the _tot _& other issues, the purchase of the aircraft in a fly away condition directly from the French is still quite expensive. The truth is something that has been known for quite a while & I have hammered about it here for the last year atleast. - there is simply no money for 126 of these aircrafts. Which is pretty much what Manohar Parrikar said. It has a debilitating effect on the rest of the essential purchases we require to do, if we buy this aircraft in the numbers originally sought. Anyone who thinks that dealing with the French is a cake walk should seriously check their noggins for brain activity. Whether it is the submarines, the M2k upgradation, the nuclear plant deal or the Rafale buy, the french are anything but pleasant to do business with. This is just another instance in a series of such instances. We may have been caught in a bind here and may end up buying some more aircraft but you can certain that we are getting ripped off big time any which way.



Dealing with French is easy. Pakistan never had any of these issues. India has this strange fetish with the term 'ToT' without realizing what it actually means. I've always said it, and will say again, no western company will ever transfer their knowledge to any nation just because they are selling their products. That'll be like shooting oneself in the foot and face. They can let you do the assembling etc but India was expecting more, and that wasn't going to happen.
Rafale is a product made by Dassault, but it contains systems from other vendors. Just because India is dealing with Dassault, that doesn't mean that those vendors for subsystems will give up their know how as well. 
Two major sub systems that are on Rafale but Dassault having no say in, are the Engines by SNECMA and the Radar/FSO sensors by Thales.
Dassault can transfer all they want to India, but since Dassault does not have any say in Thales or SNECMA, why should these firms give up their knowledge....just because India is purchasing the a product that contains their products? Doesn't make any sense.
If India wants real ToT, it needs to do joint ventures with each company involved, and put up a capital in proportion to the work expected.

This immediate purchase of 36 aircraft is a face saving measure, assure France that we are committed, but we don't know how. Since Modi's trip was all hyped up, it was necessary to offer something......the main issue of the original RFP/Tender is still far from resolved.


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## Bang Galore

Donatello said:


> Dealing with French is easy. Pakistan never had any of these issues. *India has this strange fetish with the term 'ToT' without realizing what it actually means. I've always said it, and will say again, no western company will ever transfer their knowledge to any nation just because they are selling their products. That'll be like shooting oneself in the foot and face. They can let you do the assembling etc but India was expecting more, and that wasn't going to happen.
> Rafale is a product made by Dassault, but it contains systems from other vendors. Just because India is dealing with Dassault, that doesn't mean that those vendors for subsystems will give up their know how as well.
> Two major sub systems that are on Rafale but Dassault having no say in, are the Engines by SNECMA and the Radar/FSO sensors by Thales.
> Dassault can transfer all they want to India, but since Dassault does not have any say in Thales or SNECMA, why should these firms give up their knowledge....just because India is purchasing the a product that contains their products? Doesn't make any sense.*
> If India wants real ToT, it needs to do joint ventures with each company involved, and put up a capital in proportion to the work expected.



That is not the GoI's problem, it's Dassault's. Nobody forced them at gunpoint to bid, you can't expect to change the terms & conditions of the tender after you have been shortlisted. Your argument would hold good if they didn't bid as the French refused to with Pakistan recently. Once you participate, you can't then use these excuses. It's Dassault business to convince its partners about the expectation in the tender, no one is insisting that they bid.

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## Stephen Cohen

@Bang Galore 

We have no option but to bite the bullet 

Money has to be arranged somehow ; 36 Rafales is just USELESS 
because you have to create a lot of infrastructure and spend money on other related activities

The reason we need Rafale is simple *J 20 and SU 35 
*
Our SU 30 MKI alone cannot take them on 

FGFA is at least a DECADE away 

Rafale was expensive to start with BUT our MMRCA PROCEDURE 
made the whole deal more expensive 

It is our mistake as pointed out by the Defence Minister

@Bang Galore watch this 

here the Former chief ACM Tipnis is clearly saying we will buy more

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## tsinga

Stephen Cohen said:


> @Bang Galore
> 
> We have no option but to bite the bullet
> 
> Money has to be arranged somehow ; 36 Rafales is just USELESS
> because you have to create a lot of infrastructure and spend money on other related activities
> 
> The reason we need Rafale is simple *J 20 and SU 35
> *
> Our SU 30 MKI alone cannot take them on
> 
> FGFA is at least a DECADE away
> 
> Rafale was expensive to start with BUT our MMRCA PROCEDURE
> made the whole deal more expensive
> 
> It is our mistake as pointed out by the Defence Minister


Ordering an additional 18 Rafales is a given. 

That means in total we will have 54 Rafales i.e. 3 squadrons, against the 6 squadrons wanted under MRCA.

I believe 3 squadrons of Rafale along with LCA are more than enough to tide over till the FGFA starts entering service.


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## cerberus

While the two squadrons of 36 Rafale jets to be procured under direct purchase from France would meet the critical operational requirements of the Air Force, the need for additional aircraft would be addressed through the ‘Make in India’ process, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said.

This gives some clarity on the government’s plans for fighter aircraft procurement after the surprise announcement by Prime Minister Narendra Modi to buy 36 Rafale jets from France under direct purchase through a government-to-government deal.

“I think two squadrons at least if you get in fly-away condition, meantime you can work on ‘Make in India’ process. While Air Force gets what it requires, the ‘Make in India’ process also gets enough time to work on,” Mr. Parrikar told NDTV on Tuesday.

Stating that the Rafale deal shouldn’t have gone through a global tender in the first place, Mr. Parrikar said “the previous UPA government did not think it through.”

He also pointed that this was an in-principle decision and the details would be worked out by the two governments and claimed that the deal for direct purchase was better than the original Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal.

Under the MMRCA deal, India was negotiating the purchase of 126 aircraft for over $20 billion of which 18 would come in fly-away condition while the remaining were to be manufactured in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

However, Mr. Parrikar did not elaborate on how the ‘Make in India’ process would unfold. Officials said there are two ways to go about. One is accelerating the development of Light Combat Aircraft MK II and buying additional Sukhois from Russia while the other option would be to get Dassault to set up a joint manufacturing facility in India in partnership with a private sector firm to build additional Rafales.

More jets through ‘Make in India’ process: Parrikar - The Hindu

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## Stephen Cohen

tsinga said:


> Ordering an additional 18 Rafales is a given.
> 
> That means in total we will have 54 Rafales i.e. 3 squadrons, against the 6 squadrons wanted under MRCA.
> 
> I believe 3 squadrons of Rafale along with LCA are more than enough to tide over till the FGFA starts entering service.



We need at least 80 

People believe that we have to pay everything at once 

The whole payment will happen over a decade


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## cerberus

NEW DELHI: The government could ask France's Dassault Aviation to rope in an Indian partner to jointly manufacture the next batch of its Rafale fighters in the country as a condition for landing the remainder of the contract, a move it hopes will fulfil the 'Make in India' dimension that could not be met in its off-the-shelf purchase of 36 planes last week.

Sources familiar with the matter said there were initial discussions in the government on whether to press the French firm to sign .. 

Read more at:
Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm - The Economic Times


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## GURU DUTT

so its done now 36 on fast track G TO G terms and 126 more under make in india as per rules set by Dassult not a bad deal


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## Stephen Cohen

@Bang Galore

There are THREE considerations in the whole deal

1 National Security

2 Price

3 TOT ; offsets ; domestic manufacturing by HAL / Pvt sector

Point 1 and point 2 are the most crucial

Obviously we cannot may more than 20 billion

SO we will have to compromise on POINT 3 ie
TOT ; offsets ; domestic manufacturing by HAL / Pvt sector

We can spend at least 20 Billion on this deal

*The question is how many Rafales can we get in 20 Billion*


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## Donatello

Bang Galore said:


> That is not the GoI's problem, it's Dassault's. Nobody forced them at gunpoint to bid, you can't expect to change the terms & conditions of the tender after you have been shortlisted. Your argument would hold good if they didn't bid as the French refused to with Pakistan recently. Once you participate, you can't then use these excuses. It's Dassault business to convince its partners about the expectation in the tender, no one is insisting that they bid.



By that logic, all western options are out. Only Russians will give you the JVs and ToT without additional expense (<----or is it?)


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## Stephen Cohen

Donatello said:


> By that logic, all western options are out. Only Russians will give you the JVs and ToT without additional expense (<----or is it?)



Yes that is right But we dont want more Russian planes
AT THIS stage 

More SU 30 mki and SU 35 is the LAST option
That will happen if we dont get ANY Rafale at all 

The NEXT Russian plane we will buy is FGFA


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## rockstarIN

Stephen Cohen said:


> @Bang Galore
> 
> There are THREE considerations in the whole deal
> 
> 1 National Security
> 
> 2 Price
> 
> 3 TOT ; offsets ; domestic manufacturing by HAL / Pvt sector
> 
> Point 1 and point 2 are the most crucial
> 
> Obviously we cannot may more than 20 billion
> 
> SO we will have to compromise on POINT 3 ie
> TOT ; offsets ; domestic manufacturing by HAL / Pvt sector
> 
> We can spend at least 20 Billion on this deal
> 
> *The question is how many Rafales can we get in 20 Billion*




FGFA will not happen as there are reports that India pulling out and Russia will only make one sqn. 

Follow up orders will be there post 2020, we need to start AMCA right now or as a JV with other partners.


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## cerberus

GURU DUTT said:


> so its done now 36 on fast track G TO G terms and 126 more under make in india as per rules set by Dassult not a bad deal


My guess is Reliance they were seeking it for very long.it will definitely create a buzz in political lines

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## Stephen Cohen

rockstarIN said:


> FGFA will not happen as there are reports that India pulling out and Russia will only make one sqn.
> 
> Follow up orders will be there post 2020, we need to start AMCA right now or as a JV with other partners.



FGFA will happen ; it is only delayed 

Russian economic woes are all temporary 

Stop dreaming about AMCA ; First let us make LCA MK 2

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## rockstarIN

Stephen Cohen said:


> FGFA will happen ; it is only delayed
> 
> Russian economic woes are all temporary
> 
> Stop dreaming about AMCA ; First let us make LCA MK 2


*Russian Air Force to buy fewer PAK FA fighter aircraft*
March 25, 2015 Ivan Safronov, Kommersant
The military is likely to buy fewer fifth generation T-50 fighters, scaling back requirement*s to 12 after initially planning for 52, due to economic considerations, *Deputy Defence Minister Yuri Borisov has said. 

Russian Air Force to buy fewer PAK FA fighter aircraft | Russia & India Report


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## Stephen Cohen

cerberus said:


> My guess is Reliance they were seeking it for very long.it will definitely create a buzz in political lines



The JV will INCLUDE LCA 

Management control will be with Dassault and Reliance plus Mahindra

IT will be three way consortium 
Indian Pvt sector plus HAL plus Dassault 

The TOT benefits will come to HAL 

Secondly HAL will be told to concentrate on LCA 
HAL will manufacture LCA mk1 and deliver them at the earliest


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## PARIKRAMA

I had discussed in another thread about the same topic under make in India initiatve possibility where i stated my views on that

here is the link India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off: | Page 110

Today i got a view from Prasun K Sengupta also echoing almost similar view

Rafale

Only 36 will be imported off-the-shelf.
Balance will be supplied in kits for final assembly in India by a consortium
Consortium likely to include Reliance & Mahindra
Production rate of 14 per annum.
LCA MK2

HAL never had anything to do with R & D on Tejas MRCA. This was, is & will remain ADA’s responsibility.
Tejas Mk2’s R & D calls for a totally redesigned airframe with some major changes to the wings & air-intakes, it will involve a totally all-new flight-test/certification regime lasting some 2,000 flights.
If two Tejas Mk2 prototypes are made available by 2018, airworthiness certification can at best be achieved by 2021
Series-production by HAL can begin in only 2022 at best & first fully-equipped squadron will be commissioned in only 2025.

Super Sukhoi Su30MKI

Super Sukhoi upgrade cannot proceed at very fast rate per month wise.
If work starts in 2018, it will take more than 2 decades to complete the fleet-wide upgrade.

FGFA

FGFA too won’t become available till 2025.
@Stephen Cohen have patience brother, in some time the whole thing will become clearer.

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## rockstarIN

Stephen Cohen said:


> The JV will INCLUDE LCA
> 
> Management control will be with Dassault and Reliance plus Mahindra
> 
> IT will be three way consortium
> Indian Pvt sector plus HAL plus Dassault
> 
> The TOT benefits will come to HAL
> 
> Secondly HAL will be told to concentrate on LCA
> HAL will manufacture LCA mk1 and deliver them at the earliest



What about responsibility clause?


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## Stephen Cohen

rockstarIN said:


> *Russian Air Force to buy fewer PAK FA fighter aircraft*
> March 25, 2015 Ivan Safronov, Kommersant
> The military is likely to buy fewer fifth generation T-50 fighters, scaling back requirement*s to 12 after initially planning for 52, due to economic considerations, *Deputy Defence Minister Yuri Borisov has said.
> 
> Russian Air Force to buy fewer PAK FA fighter aircraft | Russia & India Report



Such decisions are based on changing economic circumstances
NOTHING is written in stone

Once money is available you can spend it again

At one time Russian Navy was dead ; today they are investing so heavily into a modern Navy
Similarly Russia is also making SU 35 ; SU 34 and SU 30 for ITSELF

While modernising its MIG 31 and TU 22



rockstarIN said:


> What about responsibility clause?



SInce Dassault will have the management Control along with A Pvt sector company 
Both will have responsibility



PARIKRAMA said:


> @Stephen Cohen have patience brother, in some time the whole thing will become clearer.



The main worry was what AFTER 36 ; that has eased 

More will definitely come ; how they come does not matter

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## rockstarIN

Stephen Cohen said:


> Such decisions are based on changing economic circumstances
> NOTHING is written in stone
> 
> Once money is available you can spend it again
> 
> At one time Russian Navy was dead ; today they are investing so heavily into a modern Navy
> Similarly Russia is also making SU 35 ; SU 34 and SU 30 for ITSELF
> 
> While modernising its MIG 31 and TU 22
> 
> 
> 
> SInce Dassault will have the management Control along with A Pvt sector company
> Both will have responsibility



It is not only economical in case of PAK-FA, India is not much interested in the programme if the problem was monies India was indeed there. 

The private participation was always there in case of Rafale production but the prime contractor was HAL.

Now the way it is unveiling, it is a victory of France. We should have pulled off from the deal.


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## sancho

janon said:


> Well your own rhetorical questions can actually validate my point. Why are we struggling on a subsonic cruise missile, despite codeveloping a world class Brahmos? How did the know-how help?



Simple, it gave us the know how to develop own guidance and navigation systems, just as a variety of launch applications, from land based, naval surface, naval submerged up to the latest air launched systems. All this is based on the know how we gathered through the Brahmos project, which now is diverted to Nirbhay. The problem is, that you consider ToT to be something magical, that directly brings us to the same level as the country that is providing us with it. Which obviously is not the case, because we have to understand and absorb the ToT first, before we can use it for next projects. We are able to produce or assemble the Russian parts of Brahmos in India now, just as we will do it with the Israeli parts of Barak 8, which we couldn't without ToT and we would not even close to develop the same on our own. So ToT of critical techs and joint developments are the only way for us to at least shorten the time for developments and get our hands on advances arms. But implementing the knowledge we gathered into own developments, is the next step which takes time and effort too.
You can see the same in the Dhruv project too, where we gained from foreign design and tech support => learned to produce them in India => implemented the knowledge into own developments to replace foreign parts over time and now even to do own re-designs and new projects, based on what we learned. That's the learning curve, LCA should have followed too, which would had made it equally successful and our industry more capable than it get so far with that project. But that's also the learning curve we see today with the MKI, were we not only learned to produce it to a large extend in India, but also to develop counterparts for Russian systems and weapons. Astra for example is based on R77 seekers, how do you think we got that? ToT! But we have to develop the rest on our own witht the know how of the seeker we got.




janon said:


> Why are we struggling to make a radar for a 4th gen aircraft, despite all the foreign aircrafts we have manufactured, including the sophisticated MKIs with ToT?



As already said, because ToT to assemble BARS in India, doesn't make HAL or GTRE able to develop a similar radar. That's why I told you that ToT is not = ToT. ToT to assemble parts is basic ToT, which is what we got for decades and which is what most countries get, if they get ToT at all. But ToT of critical techs, to produce them in India even with Indian materials, gets us far more access to that system and that's what MMRCA was up to, getting to the next level beyond the MKI deal.



janon said:


> Why did Bharat Forge need to acquire the company itself, rather than pay and buy "ToT"?



Because you can't "simply" buy critical ToT, since no company is easily giving away their know how. That's why these we have to negotiate in every licence production tender for every bit of ToT, licence production or cusomization, which are also limited to specific systems only, while taking over the company means, taking over their whole know how too. 



janon said:


> If I buy the entire Boeing company tomorrow, I will be producing Super Hornets - not because I became a lot more knowledgeable, but because I bought the frigging company.



Wrong, you will be able to produce them in the Boeing facilities, but also to divert the know how to any of your own facilities and produce the F18SH there! You simply are not limited to approval from Boeing, but are free to use the full know how of the company, where and how you need it. That's why Bharat Forge is not producing the Howitzers in Austria, but diverting and implementing the know how in their own facilities in India!



janon said:


> Tata producing helicopter "parts" is in no way comparable to making an entire modern fighter jt. The difference in complexity is incomparable.



Who said that it would be comparable, the point was, that they couldn't produce these parts, without Sikorsky sharing the know. Same as we have seen with HAL and BAE Hawks, which after proper support of BAE was able to produce the Hawks in a similar efficient way as TATA does it with Sikorsky parts. Both examples again shows the importants of getting foreign know how to our industry and the more critical techs, the better for our future!



janon said:


> The only point of contention is whether this uber expensive "ToT" will enable us to become on par with the entity we are purchasing the said ToT from.



Well you get what you pay for! We could have bought US fighters at lower costs, without hardly enough ToT to assemble the radar and EW systems that were produced in the US, while the major ToT package would be of airframe parts. Cheap, but totally useless to improve our industry for the long term and that's the ToT you complain about!
On the other side we have the EF and the Rafale, more costly, but vastly more capable as fighters and with the best industrial packages we could get. To not use this chance to give our industry a push, just to safe a bit money, will be a huge setback for the industry, that has to invest more and need longer, to reach the same level on it's own.



janon said:


> You can purchase the blueprints for Rafale, you can learn how to build the radar - but what you cannot do is learn how they learnt it in the first place.



Of course not, that's experience and not technology. But experience of understanding advanced technology, or advanced production methods is crucial too, since it's shortens the time, that you otherwise need to reach that level in the first place. You can go 1 - 2 - 3 and each step will be more demanding if you do it on your own, but if you have somebody with knowledge that teaches you the same, you learn it faster. 



janon said:


> How do you think we navalized a fighter sooner than China did? Because we decided to do it, a long time back.
> Not really. We failed to do it alone and then started a tender for foreign help and after the US companies were not allowed to give us their know how and guidance, we took the L2 Airbus, as the foreign partner.
> So our advantage was the variety of options from Europe, Russia and to an extend even US, that were ready to help us, while China had only the option to convince the Ukraine or to get the know how on other ways and no, they didn't do it themselfs, they bought Su 33s, the carrier and even trained their pilots and crews in the Ukraine, apart from the know how they got to refurbish the carrier and navalise the fighters. They knew how to build Su 27s from the know how they get from the Russians, but were not able to navalise it on their own, just as they still are not able to develop similar radars or engines as latest Russian Flankers have. Which also shows the difference of critical and basic ToT.
> 
> 
> 
> janon said:
> 
> 
> 
> By paying 8 billion dollars for Rafale's ToT, we are not going to be able to make a world beating new aircraft in future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which itself is a wrong idea, that India is able to develop a world beating aircraft. But why do we have to exaggerate always like this? We are still learing to develop a 4th generation light class fighter and could get the know how of 4.5th gen systems, improved airframe design, advanced production methods, which all helps us in any future fighter development. We heared for example that LCA is not really designed to be maintenance friendly, while Dassault fighters are know to have a focus on ease of maintenance and repairs. So understanding that and implementing it into the AMCA design in the development stage, would be a crucial advantage. We heared that HAL produces the composites for LCA manually, while Dassault does it automatically => something to learn and implement into AMCA... which shows how important it is to learn from those who already have the knowledge, to cut a decade of development time or reduce the risks of failed developments.
Click to expand...

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## PARIKRAMA

*More Rafales required but need to factor in cost: Defence minister Manohar Parrikar interview*

_[...]
Excerpts:

*Q. Was the Indian Air Force on board when the government took the decision to buy 36 Rafale fighters under the government-to-government (G2G) route from France?*

A. I consulted the air force to the extent it was required. They have no role in decision-making as ultimately it's the Prime Minister's call. I did discuss possibilities with the PM and he took a very bold decision, which was required. If we had missed this opportunity, the entire matter would have gone into a spin and we might have had to re-start the whole procedure this year. And in another 5 years our requirements might have changed. Rafale induction could begin in about 18 months.

*Q. You said the fighter acquisition process will be G2G now. Will India buy more Rafales or could it source fighters from other countries too?*

A. I will say both options are open to us depending on reassessment of our requirements (after scrapping the tender for 126 aircraft). I will not spell out MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) role but it will be very effective in certain areas. Two people travel on a scooter, 4 in a car and 20 in a bus. But 2 people can also travel in a bus but that would be wasting resources. So, we will not deploy this aircraft where it is not required. I can tell you our light combat aircraft (LCA) is also a very capable aircraft and can replace MiG-21s more than adequately. It cannot be compared with the Rafale as the latter is a heavier fighter with two engines.

*Q. So India will buy more Rafales after re-assessing requirements? Where does the LCA fit in the picture?*

A. I feel that some more Rafale jets may be required but need to figure out how we can acquire them. But more importantly, we need large number of aircraft to replace MiG variants over the next 8-10 years, which is their extended life. So either we go in for large-scale manufacturing of the LCA or combine some other requirements and go for a medium-weight fighter under the Make in India plan.

Some of it can be replaced by even proper stockpiling of missiles. Nowadays, one can attack some targets by proper use of missiles.

*Q. Will the remaining Rafales come under Make in India programme and will Dassault Aviation set up a unit here?*

A. That decision will be taken after both India and France hold talks. It will also depend on what our financial outlay is. We operate various MiG variants, Mirage 2000s, Jaguars, Sukhoi-30s and we have the LCA now. All these warplanes have different capabilities and cannot be compared. Ultimately, we may also require certain number of Rafales but how many will hinge on the cost factor. Why just 126? I would want the IAF to have 500 planes, but the question is how much I can afford. We will have to do an analysis of minimum requirement and then take a decision.
[...]
*Q. Coming back to the Rafale deal, you said your predecessor had himself put a question mark on it.*

A. The previous defence minister had written that after the price negotiation is done, L1 should be verified again. But it did not come to that stage as it got stuck up because of interpretation of whether to take French man-hours into consideration for building the plane or Indian man-hours, which is 2.7 times the French number. I have not gone into too much detail on that, but my officers have expressed reservations about this 2.7-hour formula for local manufacturing._
_
More Rafales required but need to factor in cost, says Manohar Parrikar
Quick points courtesy Olybrius_

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## ziaulislam

well it seems PAF had an idea that rafale deal will fall..??so they cut their own j-10 deal.
or is it that india feels that it doesnt need it anymmore?

either way scrapping the deal doesnt make sense. especially after so many years of effort and commitment


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## cerberus

ziaulislam said:


> well it seems PAF had an idea that rafale deal will fall..??so they cut their own j-10 deal.
> or is it that india feels that it doesnt need it anymmore?
> 
> either way scrapping the deal doesnt make sense. especially after so many years of effort and commitment


Deal is on,,only the procurement procedures changed

Mmrca was RFP route which was cancelled now all the purchase will be by GToG Level


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## migflug

Mp repeatedly pressing for tejas is a very good news.but he is also talking abt other aircraft if needed . Hence hal ada must do their work quickly


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## magudi

migflug said:


> Mp repeatedly pressing for tejas is a very good news.but he is also talking abt other aircraft if needed . Hence hal ada must do their work quickly




I don't think road ahead for tejas is going to get any glossier. MP clearly says tejas or any other single engine fighter can replace Mig 21 so be sure there's going to be hell lotta lobbying


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## Odysseus

*Antony’s questions killed Rafale tender process: Manohar Parrikar: Hindustan Times.*

Manohar Parrikar took over as defence minister in November 2014 after two successful stints as the Goa chief minister.

India’s multi-billion tender process to buy 126 advanced warplanes was doomed from the start because UPA defence minister AK Antony had put a “question mark” on the deal, defence minister Manohar Parrikar has said . 

Speaking to Hindustan Times, Parrikar questioned the medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) tendering process, picking holes in the method employed to determine French firm Dassault Aviation as the lowest bidder (L1) in the final round of the competition. According to the defence minister, the UPA government had taken hold of the “wrong end of the stick”.

India has scrapped the $25-billion deal more than three years after Dassault, which manufactures the Rafale, was declared the lowest bidder, with Prime Minister Narendra Modi opting instead to buy 36 of these jets from France in a fly-away condition under a government-to-government (G2G) contract.

“The previous defence minister had himself put a question mark (on the deal’s future) by saying go for price negotiations (with L1) but after that, review the procedure by which L1 was determined… It’s a funny statement… Concluding the deal would have been extremely difficult for us,” Parrikar told HT in his Kota House suite on the eve of a four-day visit to South Korea. Attired in a familiar blue bush shirt, Parrikar said the L1 figure in the fighter contract was determined by factoring in a questionable life-cycle cost model.

The Rafale had beaten stiff competition from the Eurofighter Typhoon to emerge the frontrunner for the contract in January 2012. Six fighters took part in the contest.

Parrikar said the request for proposal (tender) was probably not a great document as it left a lot to “interpretation and imagination.”

He said it wasn’t prudent to take the tender route to buy critical platforms such as warplanes.

“How do you compare various varieties of planes? You may take a benchmark and say these two (fighters) are above the benchmark, but again how do you compare a particular missile with another missile?” said Parrikar. He said even if multiple fighter platforms met the IAF’s requirements of combat radius, rate of climb and angle of attack, the type and number of missiles fitted on the planes could make the difference in their “effective operation”.

“I believe such strategic platforms (in a non-nuclear sense) cannot be compared with each other that easily. Suppose one costs a million dollars more than the other but has a more effective missile. Technically, it may be costlier but it is better as it has longer stand-off range,” he said, suggesting the G2G route for “strategic” buys.

The usually amiable Parrikar could not resist taking a dig at Congress leader Digvijaya Singh, who ridiculed him on Twitter for buying fish in Goa when Modi was ordering fighters in France. “Digvijaya Singh should eat fish. It will sharpen his brains,” Parrikar said.

Parrikar moved to an Akbar Road residence on Wednesday after staying in the navy’s Kota House for four months.

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## IND151

sancho said:


> Simple, it gave us the know how to develop own guidance and navigation systems, just as a variety of launch applications, from land based, naval surface, naval submerged up to the latest air launched systems. All this is based on the know how we gathered through the Brahmos project, which now is diverted to Nirbhay. The problem is, that you consider ToT to be something magical, that directly brings us to the same level as the country that is providing us with it. Which obviously is not the case, because we have to understand and absorb the ToT first, before we can use it for next projects. We are able to produce or assemble the Russian parts of Brahmos in India now, just as we will do it with the Israeli parts of Barak 8, which we couldn't without ToT and we would not even close to develop the same on our own. So ToT of critical techs and joint developments are the only way for us to at least shorten the time for developments and get our hands on advances arms. But implementing the knowledge we gathered into own developments, is the next step which takes time and effort too.
> You can see the same in the Dhruv project too, where we gained from foreign design and tech support => learned to produce them in India => implemented the knowledge into own developments to replace foreign parts over time and now even to do own re-designs and new projects, based on what we learned. That's the learning curve, LCA should have followed too, which would had made it equally successful and our industry more capable than it get so far with that project. But that's also the learning curve we see today with the MKI, were we not only learned to produce it to a large extend in India, but also to develop counterparts for Russian systems and weapons. Astra for example is based on R77 seekers, how do you think we got that? ToT! But we have to develop the rest on our own witht the know how of the seeker we got.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As already said, because ToT to assemble BARS in India, doesn't make HAL or GTRE able to develop a similar radar. That's why I told you that ToT is not = ToT. ToT to assemble parts is basic ToT, which is what we got for decades and which is what most countries get, if they get ToT at all. But ToT of critical techs, to produce them in India even with Indian materials, gets us far more access to that system and that's what MMRCA was up to, getting to the next level beyond the MKI deal.
> 
> 
> 
> Because you can't "simply" buy critical ToT, since no company is easily giving away their know how. That's why these we have to negotiate in every licence production tender for every bit of ToT, licence production or cusomization, which are also limited to specific systems only, while taking over the company means, taking over their whole know how too.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, you will be able to produce them in the Boeing facilities, but also to divert the know how to any of your own facilities and produce the F18SH there! You simply are not limited to approval from Boeing, but are free to use the full know how of the company, where and how you need it. That's why Bharat Forge is not producing the Howitzers in Austria, but diverting and implementing the know how in their own facilities in India!
> 
> 
> 
> Who said that it would be comparable, the point was, that they couldn't produce these parts, without Sikorsky sharing the know. Same as we have seen with HAL and BAE Hawks, which after proper support of BAE was able to produce the Hawks in a similar efficient way as TATA does it with Sikorsky parts. Both examples again shows the importants of getting foreign know how to our industry and the more critical techs, the better for our future!
> 
> 
> 
> Well you get what you pay for! We could have bought US fighters at lower costs, without hardly enough ToT to assemble the radar and EW systems that were produced in the US, while the major ToT package would be of airframe parts. Cheap, but totally useless to improve our industry for the long term and that's the ToT you complain about!
> On the other side we have the EF and the Rafale, more costly, but vastly more capable as fighters and with the best industrial packages we could get. To not use this chance to give our industry a push, just to safe a bit money, will be a huge setback for the industry, that has to invest more and need longer, to reach the same level on it's own.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course not, that's experience and not technology. But experience of understanding advanced technology, or advanced production methods is crucial too, since it's shortens the time, that you otherwise need to reach that level in the first place. You can go 1 - 2 - 3 and each step will be more demanding if you do it on your own, but if you have somebody with knowledge that teaches you the same, you learn it faster.



At Upsized and colored parts- Agreed.

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## Bang Galore

PARIKRAMA said:


> _*Q. Was the Indian Air Force on board when the government took the decision to buy 36 Rafale fighters under the government-to-government (G2G) route from France?*
> 
> A. I consulted the air force to the extent it was required. They have no role in decision-making as ultimately it's the Prime Minister's call. _



Essentially confirming that the IAF was bypassed because of their insistence on saying no plan B. Deliver a fait acomplii and tell them to live with it.
_
_


> _*Q. Coming back to the Rafale deal, you said your predecessor had himself put a question mark on it.*
> 
> A. The previous defence minister had written that after the price negotiation is done, L1 should be verified again. *But it did not come to that stage as it got stuck up because of interpretation of whether to take French man-hours into consideration for building the plane or Indian man-hours, which is 2.7 times the French number. I have not gone into too much detail on that, but my officers have expressed reservations about this 2.7-hour formula for local manufacturing.*_



Yeah, makes it pretty much clear that we weren't going anywhere with the deal. Must also be thankful to Antony for atleast having doubts.




Odysseus said:


> *A*
> Parrikar said the request for proposal (tender) *was probably not a great document* as it left a lot to “interpretation and imagination.”



No kidding.

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## PARIKRAMA

I had asked Prasun Sengupta in his blog the following. i got partial answer of course but pasting the same here for all

Question

How is that information about Rafale under Made in India project where you are suggesting a consortium approach comprising of HAL, Reliance and Mahindra is not picked up by other journos (desi or foreign) 
Dont you think this may become a bofors like scandal for favouring Ambani brothers? Especially as both Reliance and Mahindra has no experience in aerospace at all..
Also how a kit based assembling is actually a make in India in real sense? its same as Su30 MKI route. 
Also how you arrived at production rate of 14.
Can you share a bit more view on this whole consortium and production thing..to understand really the feasibility and cost reduction aspect.
You feel dassault would agree for 49% stake?

Answer

That can only be answered by those concerned ‘desi’ journalists. After all, I don’t hold fort for them. But one of them did pick up some tidbits & (another user) has already posted that report’s weblink
the link was the same economic times report which we had pasted in the forum already

Reliance & Mahindra were selected by Dassault, THALES & SAFRAN, & not by anyone inside the Govt of India.
Reliance’s name first cropped up 2 years ago during the UPA-2 regime. So who now is favouring Ambani?Certainly not NaMo. 

Bofors & HDW & Scorpene deals were not G-to-G affairs. They were Govt-to-OEM contracts known as direct commercial sales. For the FH-77B howitzers, the contract’s co-signatories were the Govt of India & Bofors AB.
For the Class 209/Type 1500 SSK, the contract’s co-signatories were the Govt of India & HDW/Ferrostaal, while for the Scorpene SSK the contract’s co-signatories were the Govt of India & ARMARIS. 


For the forthcoming contract for 36 Rafales, the contract’s co-signatories will be the Govt of India & the French govt’s DGA. 
The DGA will in turn sign its internal contracts with Dassault Aviation, THALES & SAFRAN. 
Through-life product-support will be guaranteed by the DGA, & not by any French industrial OEM like Dassault, THALES or SAFRAN. 
These OEMs will be accountable to the DGA for adhering to their contractual commitments & the DGA will in turn be accountable to the MoD. 
This is similar to the US Foreign Military Sale (FMS) system, & the Russian system under which India never inks any procurement contract directly with any Russian industrial OEM, but only & always with the Russian govt’s Rosoboronexport State Corp (which in the days of the USSR was known as the Ministry of Foreign Economic Relations).
Did not get replies about kit based assembly, production rate and 49% Dassault rumoured stake in JV. Had asked him again.In Case i get a reply will post it here ...

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## Abingdonboy



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## DANGER-ZONE

Abingdonboy said:


>



This is really a big achievement by any aircraft in IAF fleet since the they even crashed one of the most secure plane called THE HERCULES.
Hats Off


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## Niks

DANGER-ZONE said:


> This is really a big achievement by any aircraft in IAF fleet since the they even crashed one of the most secure plane called THE HERCULES.
> Hats Off


PAF managed a collision of 2 super secure Hercules "on the ground"    Hats off dude,just Hats off 
DISASTROUS COLLISION OF PAF C-130 AIRCRAFT

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## Hindustani78

France may divert its order to meet India's demand for Rafale
Paris/New Delhi, Apr 15, 2015 (PTI):




*France is likely to divert its own military's production order for Rafale fighter jets to meet India's "urgent" requirement for 36 warplanes.*

French defence sources said modalities are being worked out and nitty-gritty will be finalised once Indian and French government start talking in detail.

Dassault Aviation, the manufacturer of Rafale jets, *already has an order for 24 aircraft by Egypt which has to be delivered as soon as possible. Then there is the French military order itself.*

*"Since India wants 36 fighter planes on an urgent basis, one of the options would be to divert the planes that are under production for French military to India. These planes can be fine-tuned to Indian requirements," the sources said.*

Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Francois Hollande had last week agreed to conclude an Inter- Governmental Agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than conveyed by *Dassault Aviation for the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender.*

The delivery would be in time-frame that would be compatible with the operational requirement of IAF, and the aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by IAF, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France, a joint statement had said.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has said that the *36 fighter planes would be inducted in the next two years.*

One of the problems facing the Dassault Aviation is the production rate of the jets. *At present, reports suggest it has a capacity to make about 12 aircraft per annum. This is in line with the French orders that they have in hand.*

*"Dassault will have to ramp up its production capacities to meet both Egypt and Indian orders at the same time. While they will obviously do it, it cannot happen overnight," sources said, pointing out that various other firms like Thales are also part of the Rafale project.*

French military already have three squadron of Rafale fighter jets. The French Navy too have placed an order but the sources did not confirm the total number they have signed up for.


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## Ammyy

ziaulislam said:


> well it seems PAF had an idea that rafale deal will fall..??so they cut their own j-10 deal.
> or is it that india feels that it doesnt need it anymmore?
> 
> either way scrapping the deal doesnt make sense. especially after so many years of effort and commitment



Where you found Rafale deal fall?? We just change the way to purchase them. 

First 36 built by france.. mean while we will sign deal to built them locally with some private company. Number will remain same.


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## PARIKRAMA

*Patrice Caine* ‏@Patrice_Caine  8h8 hours ago
I'd like to share with you this infographic, Thales onboard the #Rafale

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## migflug

With the price negotiations meandering into the fourth year, an impatient Narendra Modi intervened, circumventing the elaborate Request for Proposal (RFP) system of competitive bidding under which the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal was initiated. The prime minister decided to purchase the Rafales “off the shelf” without transfer of technology at the government-to-government (G2G) level.

This was portrayed as Modi’s “out of the box” solution for a problem that didn’t really exist. Plainly, he mistook the hard, extended, bargaining between the two sides as evidence of red tape, and cutting it as his unique achievement. But impatience is a liability in international relations and can cost the country plenty.

Rather than pressuring French president Francois Hollande and the French aviation major, Dassault, which is in dire straits and was in no position to resist sustained Indian pressure to deliver the Rafale and the technologies involved in toto to India, Modi eased off, promising a munificent $5billion-$8 billion for 36 Rafales off the shelf minus any reference to the L1 (lowest cost) MMRCA tender offer, possibly a buy of another 30 of them, and no onerous technology transfer obligation.

It is a turn that must have astonished Hollande and Dassault with its exceptional generosity, surpassing in its muddle-headed excess Narasimha Rao’s handout of Rs 6,000 crore in 1996 to Russia to prevent the closure of the Sukhoi design bureau and production plant in Irkutsk, in return for nothing, not even joint share of the intellectual property rights for the Su-30MKI technologies subsequently produced there, which could have kick-started the Indian aerospace sector. Then again, India is a phenomenally rich country, don’t you know?—the proverbial white knight rescuing the Russian aviation industry one day, French aerospace companies the next.

But let’s try and see if sense can be made of Modi’s Rafale deal. Much has been said about the G2G channel as a means of securing low prices. The record of acquisitions from the United States in the direct sales mode, however, shows no marked drop-off in the price for the C-17s and C-130J airlifters and the P-8I maritime reconnaissance planes. But in terms of maintenance, almost all the 20-odd ANTPQ-36/37 artillery fire-spotting radar units bought by the army from the Pentagon, for instance, are offline due to the paucity of spares. Supplier states in this situation routinely manipulate the spares supply to configure politico-military outcomes they desire. No saying what France will do with respect to the entire fleet of IAF Rafales in the years to come. Usually, the practice also is to sell the platform cheap but rake in extortionist profit selling onboard weapons and spares. In any case, it is unlikely the price of a fully loaded Rafale will be less than $200 million each or $7.2 billion for 36 Rafales, $13 billion for 66 of these aircraft, and $25.2 billion for 126 planes.

Then again, French fighter planes have proved inordinately expensive to maintain. How expensive? According to a recent report by the Comptroller and Accountant General, in 2012-2013, for example, the total cost of upkeep of all 51 Mirage 2000 aircraft in the IAF inventory was Rs 486.85 crore compared to Rs 877.84 crore for 170 Su-30MKIs—meaning, the annual unit cost of maintaining a Mirage was Rs 9.5 crore versus Rs 5.2 crore for the more capable Su-30MKI. Now ponder over this: The cost of upkeep of a Rafale is authoritatively estimated at twice the cost of the Mirage and, hence, four times that of Su-30!

The “Super Sukhoi” avatar of the air dominance-capable Su-30 entering IAF is equipped with the latest AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar permitting the switching between air-to-air and air-to-ground roles in flight, and which radar will be retrofitted on the older versions of this plane in service. In the event, in what combat profile exactly is the Rafale superior?

The defence minister Manohar Parrikar was partial to the Su-30 option, having publicly stated that it was more affordable—its procurement price half that of a Rafale, and that owing to improved spares supply condition, its serviceability rate would rise to 75 per cent by year-end, exceeding that of the Mirage, incidentally. Even so, the loyal Parrikar praised Modi’s Rafale initiative as providing “minimum oxygen” for the IAF without letting on that it will maximally oxygenate French interests and industry!

While Modi talked of a low G2G price for the Rafale, he said nothing about its servicing bill. According to a former Vice Chief of the Air Staff, the total life-cycle costs (LCC) for a fleet of 126 Rafales calculated by Air Headquarters is over $40 billion. How will the LCC be downscaled if only 36 or 66 Rafales are eventually bought? If the real acquisition price of the ordnance-loaded Rafales is added to the LCC the total outgo will be upwards of $50billion-$55 billion, a figure this analyst had mentioned many moons ago.

Indeed, the odds actually are that India will end up buying the entire MMRCA requirement from France. Why? With 36 aircraft slotted in the direct sales category, it is already cost-prohibitive for any Indian private sector company to invest in a production line valued at $5billion-$6 billion to produce the remaining 60 or even 90 aircraft. In other words, by pledging to buy enhanced numbers of Rafales from Dassault the Narendra Modi government will be constrained by economic logic to buy the rest from this source as well, a denouement the IAF had always desired. Why else was the IAF Chief Arup Raha so desperate to get the PM to commit to buying significant numbers of this aircraft outright on the pretext of “critical” need when the Rafales will come in only by 2018 at the earliest but importing Su-30s from Russia would have beefed up the force by this year-end?

Previous prime ministers have been victimised by bad advice, and paid the political price, for instance, Rajiv Gandhi with regard to the Bofors gun. Modi will have to carry the can for this Rafale transaction—a boondoggle in the making. With the opposition parties and Dr Subramaniam Swamy waking up to its potential to politically hamstring the BJP government and mar Modi’s prospects, anything can happen.


----------



## PARIKRAMA

migflug said:


> With the price negotiations meandering into the fourth year, an impatient Narendra Modi intervened, circumventing the elaborate Request for Proposal (RFP) system of competitive bidding under which the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal was initiated. The prime minister decided to purchase the Rafales “off the shelf” without transfer of technology at the government-to-government (G2G) level.
> 
> This was portrayed as Modi’s “out of the box” solution for a problem that didn’t really exist. Plainly, he mistook the hard, extended, bargaining between the two sides as evidence of red tape, and cutting it as his unique achievement. But impatience is a liability in international relations and can cost the country plenty.
> 
> Rather than pressuring French president Francois Hollande and the French aviation major, Dassault, which is in dire straits and was in no position to resist sustained Indian pressure to deliver the Rafale and the technologies involved in toto to India, Modi eased off, promising a munificent $5billion-$8 billion for 36 Rafales off the shelf minus any reference to the L1 (lowest cost) MMRCA tender offer, possibly a buy of another 30 of them, and no onerous technology transfer obligation.
> 
> It is a turn that must have astonished Hollande and Dassault with its exceptional generosity, surpassing in its muddle-headed excess Narasimha Rao’s handout of Rs 6,000 crore in 1996 to Russia to prevent the closure of the Sukhoi design bureau and production plant in Irkutsk, in return for nothing, not even joint share of the intellectual property rights for the Su-30MKI technologies subsequently produced there, which could have kick-started the Indian aerospace sector. Then again, India is a phenomenally rich country, don’t you know?—the proverbial white knight rescuing the Russian aviation industry one day, French aerospace companies the next.
> 
> But let’s try and see if sense can be made of Modi’s Rafale deal. Much has been said about the G2G channel as a means of securing low prices. The record of acquisitions from the United States in the direct sales mode, however, shows no marked drop-off in the price for the C-17s and C-130J airlifters and the P-8I maritime reconnaissance planes. But in terms of maintenance, almost all the 20-odd ANTPQ-36/37 artillery fire-spotting radar units bought by the army from the Pentagon, for instance, are offline due to the paucity of spares. Supplier states in this situation routinely manipulate the spares supply to configure politico-military outcomes they desire. No saying what France will do with respect to the entire fleet of IAF Rafales in the years to come. Usually, the practice also is to sell the platform cheap but rake in extortionist profit selling onboard weapons and spares. In any case, it is unlikely the price of a fully loaded Rafale will be less than $200 million each or $7.2 billion for 36 Rafales, $13 billion for 66 of these aircraft, and $25.2 billion for 126 planes.
> 
> Then again, French fighter planes have proved inordinately expensive to maintain. How expensive? According to a recent report by the Comptroller and Accountant General, in 2012-2013, for example, the total cost of upkeep of all 51 Mirage 2000 aircraft in the IAF inventory was Rs 486.85 crore compared to Rs 877.84 crore for 170 Su-30MKIs—meaning, the annual unit cost of maintaining a Mirage was Rs 9.5 crore versus Rs 5.2 crore for the more capable Su-30MKI. Now ponder over this: The cost of upkeep of a Rafale is authoritatively estimated at twice the cost of the Mirage and, hence, four times that of Su-30!
> 
> The “Super Sukhoi” avatar of the air dominance-capable Su-30 entering IAF is equipped with the latest AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar permitting the switching between air-to-air and air-to-ground roles in flight, and which radar will be retrofitted on the older versions of this plane in service. In the event, in what combat profile exactly is the Rafale superior?
> 
> The defence minister Manohar Parrikar was partial to the Su-30 option, having publicly stated that it was more affordable—its procurement price half that of a Rafale, and that owing to improved spares supply condition, its serviceability rate would rise to 75 per cent by year-end, exceeding that of the Mirage, incidentally. Even so, the loyal Parrikar praised Modi’s Rafale initiative as providing “minimum oxygen” for the IAF without letting on that it will maximally oxygenate French interests and industry!
> 
> While Modi talked of a low G2G price for the Rafale, he said nothing about its servicing bill. According to a former Vice Chief of the Air Staff, the total life-cycle costs (LCC) for a fleet of 126 Rafales calculated by Air Headquarters is over $40 billion. How will the LCC be downscaled if only 36 or 66 Rafales are eventually bought? If the real acquisition price of the ordnance-loaded Rafales is added to the LCC the total outgo will be upwards of $50billion-$55 billion, a figure this analyst had mentioned many moons ago.
> 
> Indeed, the odds actually are that India will end up buying the entire MMRCA requirement from France. Why? With 36 aircraft slotted in the direct sales category, it is already cost-prohibitive for any Indian private sector company to invest in a production line valued at $5billion-$6 billion to produce the remaining 60 or even 90 aircraft. In other words, by pledging to buy enhanced numbers of Rafales from Dassault the Narendra Modi government will be constrained by economic logic to buy the rest from this source as well, a denouement the IAF had always desired. Why else was the IAF Chief Arup Raha so desperate to get the PM to commit to buying significant numbers of this aircraft outright on the pretext of “critical” need when the Rafales will come in only by 2018 at the earliest but importing Su-30s from Russia would have beefed up the force by this year-end?
> 
> Previous prime ministers have been victimised by bad advice, and paid the political price, for instance, Rajiv Gandhi with regard to the Bofors gun. Modi will have to carry the can for this Rafale transaction—a boondoggle in the making. With the opposition parties and Dr Subramaniam Swamy waking up to its potential to politically hamstring the BJP government and mar Modi’s prospects, anything can happen.



Is that Bharat Karnad's view?
Dont know reading it i felt that.. only ghe says Rafale is $200 M a bird even under G2G
Morning morning a saridon ..


----------



## PARIKRAMA

*Xinhua analyzes India's reasons for buying Rafale fighter*





A Rafale fighter jet takes off from Langkawi International Airport in Malaysia, March 27, 2013. (Photo/Xinhua)

The Dassault Rafale multi-role fighter jet that India recently ordered from France has been a major weapon for the French Navy and Air Force but it did not attract foreign buyers' attention until it proved its mettle in airstrikes in Libya, Mali and Iraq, writes China's state newswire Xinhua.

India's prime minister, Narendra Modi, announced on April 10 that the country wants to buy 36 Rafale fighters as soon as possible to bolster its air power. The aircraft, which has entered service with the in French Navy in 2004 and the French Air Force in 2006, can function in air defense, reconnaissance, air-to-ground and air-to-sea attack roles and also conduct nuclear strikes.

New Delhi has been in talks with France since 2012 to buy 126 Rafale fighters but a sticking point was the the Indian government's wish for 108 of the aircraft to be built in India. The country now has a pressing need for the fighter since half of its existing fleet will be decomissioned by 2024.

The fighter established its reputation until with airstrikes against targets in Libya in 2011 when it proved capable of carrying out a mission lasting a total of nine hours and 35 minutes with an in-flight refueling. In 2013, the fighter's twin engines proved they could withstand the heat of the Sahara when France attacked rebel camps in eastern Mali. The aircraft has also been outstanding in reconnaissance and precision bombing in Iraq, where it is one of the main aircraft used in airstrikes against the Islamic State.

This performance led to the first export order in February when Egypt ordered 24 Rafale fighters.

*Xinhua said the aircraft's aerodynamic design, avionics and engines are superior to its Chinese counterpart, the Chengdu J-10, which has entered service with the PLA. What makes the Rafale fighter stand out from other fighters is its ability to carry the ASMP-A, a cruise missile that can be fired as a warning shot before a nuclear strike. Both India and Pakistan are nuclear powers but the means to deploy nuclear weapons is crucial in establishing a credible deterrent.*

Manohar Parrikar, Indias' defense minister, said it may take two to two and a half years to take delivery of the first Rafale fighter India ordered from France since the aircraft needs to be tailored for the Indian military and the two countries have yet to agree the price.

Xinhua analyzes India's reasons for buying Rafale fighter｜WantChinaTimes.com


----------



## PARIKRAMA

*Fear of buying*
Defence deals create controversy because they are small, piecemeal, with many vendors. India must get over its post-Bofors paranoia
Shekhar Gupta | | April 16, 2015 | UPDATED 10:35 IST




Prime Minister Narendra Modi's dramatic purchase of 36 Rafale jets has drawn extreme comments. *One, that this is a bold, gutsy decision of a leader who is not afraid to break the multiple logjams in defence acquisitions. Two, that it is a panicky decision to fill a crucial gap in a fast-depleting Indian Air Force Order of Battle (ORBAT) with obsolescence of the entire MiG series (MiG-29 apart), and is typical of our bandaid-tourniquet doctrine of defence purchases.*

There's truth in both arguments, though I am more inclined to the first view. This is a gutsy decision which breaks a stalemate and ends, at least for the moment, the vicious lobbying, leak-versus-leak battles in New Delhi. But there is also merit to the second view. How did India paint itself into such a corner, weakening its strategic posture? The result was it ended up making possibly a $5 billion purchase off-the-shelf in a wartime-like haste, embarrassing for the aspiring globaliser fielding the world's fourth largest army and listed, traditionally, as the top military importer in the world.

Stockholm-based SIPRI, which estimates import data in terms of constant 1990 value dollars, puts the value of India's total arms imports in five years (2010-14) at a little over $21 billion, and about three times the second largest, Saudi Arabia. Pakistan is a little bit behind, with just over a fourth of India's arms import bill, although that figure could need some correction for the complexities of putting a realistic value of imports from the US and China, both "special relationship" suppliers. The SIPRI figures look accurate if we compare them with the only reliable rupee data available with us, in the form of answers to Parliament questions: Arun Jaitley said India's arms imports were around Rs.83,000 crore in the past three years, and Manohar Parrikar saidRs.1,03,000 crore in five years, or $16 billion. But if you think 1990 rupee-dollar, SIPRI' s $21 billion would be in the ballpark.

*Two points arise from this. First, that Modi's decision to order these Rafale jets off-the-shelf was wise and brave, like a senior doctor risking immediate surgery to save a deteriorating patient. The second is a question. How did the fourth largest military machine in the world get itself in the ICU in the middle of the night over a weekend needing emergency surgery?*

*Or, to make it inconvenient for this columnist, you could summarise and reword the same questions as something like: Mr so-and-so, go get your head examined, how can you accuse a country importing more armaments than the next three countries in rankings together of suffering from a fear of buying? How can this country then be perpetually short of crucial weaponry? Aren't you a jumble of contradictions?*

These are perfectly valid questions and I have no defence except to say that* this reflects the multiple paradoxes and contradictions of India's defence planning. You want to appreciate this better, read this dubious honour of being the top importer along with the statements of successive service chiefs on crucial shortfalls. For me, the most telling statement of all came from General V.P. Malik, in the early days of Kargil in 1999 when he said in frustration: "We will fight with what we have." He was the chief of one of the world's largest and finest armies.*



To delve into this maze of contradictions, you need to write a couple of tomes. Some have been written too. My favourite is Arming Without Aiming, jointly written by the foremost expert on South Asian militaries, Stephen P. Cohen, and Sunil Dasgupta (who worked with me in this magazine two decades ago as a young reporter learning to cover defence). Both are based at Brookings in Washington now and bemoan lack of a culture of strategic thinking and planning in India. *The Indian doctrine, they imply, is purely tactical, episodic, immediate-need-based, and conforms to the basic Indian approach to all infrastructure: create shortages and then keep planning to deal with them.* My own most telling insight on this sits in my rather flimsy personal archives. It is a handwritten note scribbled with a pencil on a scrap from Jaswant Singh. He slipped it to me with a smile at a strategic affairs brainstorm at Schloss Leopoldskron, Salzburg, in the summer of 1994, as General Sundarji held forth on the weaknesses in India's strategic doctrine. "I headed the parliamentary committee to examine India's military-strategic doctrine," wrote Jaswant Singh. "We concluded there was no strategy and no doctrine."

*There is zero evidence this has changed. Because if it had, we would not be buying frontline fighters off-the-shelf as if picking groceries at a supermarket after 17 years of debates, controversies and near-scandals.* This has been the consistent history of our defence purchases except, say, a remarkable 1985-89 phase under Rajiv Gandhi which, sadly, became a problem and made our fear of buying an incurable virus. The result of this piecemeal approach is that our armed forces are under a constant stress with shortages. The same disease had plagued us during, and in the course of, every war, even if we leave out 1962 as an exception. We believe in 1971 Indira Gandhi and Jagjivan Ram gave the armed forces a free hand and time to build up fully before going to war. This included emergency, bulk import of used Soviet-made T-55 tanks from Poland, induction of heavy, but short-legged Sukhoi-7s for close support (it ended up with the highest attrition rate). And now, scholar Srinath Raghavan tells us in his wonderfully researched and written _1971: A Global History of the Creation of Bangladesh _that on the eve of 1971 the government of our greatest anti-Zionist, pro-Palestinian leader ever, Indira Gandhi, secretly pleaded with the Israelis for crucial weaponry, including long-range mortars, though we did not have diplomatic relations with them. Of course, the Israelis helped as they had done twice in the past.

*Remember the initial setbacks IAF suffered in Kargil, when two MiGs and a Mi-17 attack helicopter were lost and all crew were killed, except one taken POW? A fourth, a sturdy photo-reconnaissance Canberra (since retired), was nursed back to base by a deft crew. All were hit by shoulder-fired missiles. It needs to be said that it was because IAF commanders were still operating in old derring-do, precise, daylight, low-level strike missions of the pre-missile age. *The result was losses while very little was achieved with old-fashioned bombs, rockets and strafing. Once again, tactics changed after setbacks (recall the loss of all four obsolete Vampires sent out over Chamb in the first air battle of 1965, not to be used again in that war).

*Again in 1999, the IAF suffered no casualty in nearly 50 days of more effective operations after the first few. It not only changed tactics, but also imported-again from Israel in an emergency-laser pods to rig on Mirage-2000s to carry out precision bombing of Pakistani positions at night*. If you scratch your memory, or look at archives, those are the videos the IAF displayed at one of the press conferences in the decisive phase of that war and when the tide turned.

*This isn't meant to be a comprehensive litany of our short-termism. It is to explore a limited question, with apologies to Erica Jong: Why this fear of buying? Since 1987, one reason is the Bofors syndrome. Every defence purchase is fraught, delayed or "thrown in orbit" as Lutyens description goes for sending a file into a permanent spiral of indecision. This makes New Delhi the easiest playground for arms dealers, middlemen (by whatever name you call them) and a new phenomenon, the dedicated, B-to-B, arms bazaar media. Public is confused between negotiations, shifting requirements, a constant whiff of scandal and a belief that the system is owned by this massive, evil arms trade. At the same time, we continue importing more than any other nation in the world. You want a paradox: A.K. Antony, our most risk-averse, most anti-US defence minister since 1991, ended up buying more from the US, and directly, on government-to-government basis and off-the-shelf (C-130s, C-17s, P-8Is) than in our entire independent history. Modi has resumed that de-risked, emergency buying tradition, though with great dash.*

The only way to fight phobias is to face them. It is fashionable to curse Rajiv for Bofors and more, but the truth is, 1985-89 was the only period in our history that weapon acquisitions were proactive, futuristic and redefined the largely defensive tactical doctrines until then. Sundarji's Brasstacks and Checkerboard were aggressive and aimed at delivering crushing blows in enemy territory than merely protecting your own. The fear of Bofors has blighted South Block since. But think. In a war even today, bulk of the hardware the three forces will field was ordered by Rajiv, from Mirages to T-72 tanks to new series MiGs, BMP armoured fighting vehicles and, of course, Bofors artillery. In these years our defence budget crossed that Lakshman Rekha of 4 per cent of GDP.

Today it is well below 2 per cent of a growing GDP, and quite adequate. For a reality check, our five years' defence imports are two-thirds of our gold imports in a year and, more tellingly, less than a tenth of the import bill of Reliance Industries and about a seventh of Indian Oil Corporation, a PSU. But controversy dogs only defence imports not because they are huge, but because they are small, piecemeal, with many vendors, and the "system", wrapped-in-latex post-Bofors, is petrified of handling it. If you give up that fear, you can embark on another systematic modernisation as in 1985-89.

*If you don't, you will again land up in the ICU over a weekend needing emergency transfusion, if not surgery, soon enough.*

Defence deals create controversy because they are small, piecemeal, with many vendors. India must get over its post-Bofors paranoia : National Interest - India Today

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Another View





*RAFALE DEAL
In-A-Jam Solution
How game changed, calling for new plan*

Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France was not entirely negative for sure. But many are looking at the two major deals announced—outright purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets, and the l&t-Areva agreement for constructing the epr nuclear reactors at Jaitapur in Maharashtra—as unmitigated disasters.

*The IAF has been thrown a juicy bone with the government-to-government acquisition of 36 Rafale jets. But this will materialise only two years down the line even if India is quick to sign the contract. Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s much-vaunted ‘Make in India’ policy, however, suffers a major setback. For Dassault Aviation, though, it’s a thumping victory.*

*For over three years, the contract for buying 126 Rafale jets had been foundering. In France, the reputation of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is rock-bottom. French defence majors who have worked with HAL describe it as “unprofessional and unreliable in the extreme”. *The original plan was to buy 18 aircraft in ready-to-fly condition. HAL was to produce 108 more under licence in India. But Dassault refused to take responsibility for planes manufactured by HAL. *Besides, there were disputes over pricing: an off-the-shelf purchase will cost India much more per aircraft than if the original deal had gone through. The actual transfer of technology will be limited and the outright purchase lets Dassault off the hook on that score. French sources place the value of this purchase at over Euro 5.5 billion. Dassault CEO Eric Trappier and his colleagues will be laughing their way to the bank.*

*Modi’s much-vaunted ‘Make in India’ policy suffers a huge setback. Dassault, however, strikes a Rs 50,000-crore deal.*



At one time, India had the French aviation giant in a squeeze. The French defence ministry had curtailed its order for Rafales from 11 aircraft per year to just 26 over the next six years. Dassault badly needed the oxygen of foreign sales. India thought it could press the company for an even better deal: but there comes a point beyond which negotiations stall. The IAF badly needs the fighters: the government should have been careful not to push to the brink. On February 12, France announced the sale of 24 Rafales to Egypt, to be bankrolled by Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Now, Dassault was in a dramatically better bargaining position. No longer did it have to accommodate New Delhi’s manoeuvring over prices or over manufacturing by HAL. Dassault could afford to drag out the negotiations.

*In India, pressure was building up. Paris told New Delhi that failure of the Rafale contract could seriously dent Indo-French relations. The IAF, realising the deal could collapse, raised the ante. And French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian made three trips to Delhi between December and March. In December, the India defence minister had told Le Drian he would accelerate the process. By February, the tide turned against India. In March, New Delhi told Paris that in the face of Dassault’s newfound intransigence, another urgent solution had to be found—outright purchase. On April 7, French President Francois Hollande and Le Drian discussed and finalised their response to New Delhi. It was kept secret: even HAL chairman and CEO T. Suvarna Raju learnt of the purchase from the newspapers while in Paris.*

*Insiders in the defence industry say other producers and suppliers would also have been reluctant to accept the global tender route, especially if HAL conditionality was retained. Also, they said, the Indian private sector is not yet equipped to collaborate on high-tech projects such as making sophisticated fighter jets. A specialist defence journalist says, in the short run, Modi’s ‘Make in India’ ambitions are unrealistic.*

For India, the relationship with France is crucial. Though a middle-level power, France is a defence major, and can provide high-tech products and services in infrastructure, transport and waste disposal and in the fields of nano, nuclear and space technologies. France is also a permanent member of the un Security Council; New Delhi is counting on French support for its membership bid. But that’s another matter. Many political observers are of the opinion that, given the nature of Paris’s own vested interest in the status quo on UNSC membership and its close ties with Germany, it’s doubtful if France will go the extra mile for India.

In-A-Jam Solution | Vaiju Naravane

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Another view
Nitin Gokhle (The one who too DM M Parrikar's interview in DD)
*A Bold Political Decision for a Crucial Defence Need*









Nitin A Gokhale, Editor & Senior Fellow, VIF

The saga for procurement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF) actually began in 2001, gathered steam in 2007 and was stuck in price negotiations for the past three years. Meanwhile, the IAF's combat fighter jet strength was depleting fast. Over the past couple of years, the Air Force top brass was alarmed enough to tell the government that its conventional combat edge even against Pakistan was in danger of being lost.

So last week, hours before Prime Minister Narendra Modi embarked on his three-nation tour, a political decision was taken to explore the option of buying Rafale jets through a government-to-government (G-to-G) contract with France. The breakthrough will now allow the IAF to induct Rafale fighter jets in a two year time frame and at least partially make up for its depleting combat jet strength.

*However, it is the next step in aircraft procurement that will be watched intently. Will this decision of going for G-to-G mean that all future purchases of this magnitude will be handled in this manner? If so, what happens to the much-touted Make in India programme? The roadmap is not clear but Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar gave enough hints about what the government is thinking in an interview that this writer co-hosted on Monday for Doordarshan *(Rafel Vaayusena Ki Jaroorat, Sawal Bemani: Parrikar - YouTube).

*Not surprisingly, skeptics have hit out at the decision. The criticism has ranged from "it's too little too late," to "it goes against the Make in India concept." But both Modi and Parrikar were clear that they had to put the interest of the IAF above everything else and which what they have done. Mind you, procuring 36 Rafales is just a stop-gap arrangement to arrest the rapidly falling numbers in IAF's combat fleet.*

Lauding the Prime Minister for taking a bold decision in breaking the Rafale deadlock, Parrikar said future large procurements for the IAF and indeed for the armed forces at large, will have to be G-2-G but Make in India will also get a look in for other projects. For instance,* IF more Rafales, were to be bought--over and above 36 decided now--Dassault could be asked to manufacture them in India. Even if any other lighter aircraft was to be selected, the pre-condition will be a tie-up with an Indian company or consortium.*

*It is to Parrikar's credit that he decided to think differently on a knotty issue and suggested a way out to the Prime Minister. In fact, in less than six months after taking over, Parrikar has studied various complex issues dogging the defence ministry and has come to his own conclusions on what needs to be done*. By his own admission, Parrikar spent the first four months as defence minister in taking inputs from a range of experts both within and outside the MoD before making up his mind.

In his review, Parrikar also found that the bureaucracy in the ministry—both civil and military--was sitting on some 400-odd big and small projects that are critical to the three armed forces. Without getting into details, he said: “The first thing I did was to look at projects that are stuck at various stages of clearances since the most common complaint across the board was ‘nothing moves’ in the MoD.” A thorough review revealed that nearly one-third of the 400-odd projects were now irrelevant. So they were discarded. About 50 projects were accelerated since they were of critical importance.

A decade-long impasse in defence acquisitions has been broken with the decision on Rafale, raising renewed hope in the sector. Parrikar has brought in a sense of purpose in the notoriously obdurate MoD bureaucracy. “*There was no control over the system. There were no reviews, no feedback and there was no fear of punishment for non-performance. An important ministry like Defence cannot run like this,” Parrikar said in an interview. So he has now instututed a time-bound performance review system aimed at speedy clearances and implementation of projects.*

Hopefully, the new measures will revitalise the functioning of the crucial arm of the government in coming months.


A Bold Political Decision for a Crucial Defence Need | Vivekananda International Foundation

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## alonsofff123

China J10B is superior to Rafale

China J31 is far more superior to Rafale

CHINA J20 is super far more superior to Rafale

*(Mod Edit: Stop reporting this post just because you dont like it. the claim is based on what J20 is known for, if you disagree then make a comparison and prove otherwise instead of reporting it because it hurts your feelings)*


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## uparyupari

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Fear of buying*
> Defence deals create controversy because they are small, piecemeal, with many vendors. India must get over its post-Bofors paranoia
> Shekhar Gupta | | April 16, 2015 | UPDATED 10:35 IST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi's dramatic purchase of 36 Rafale jets has drawn extreme comments. *One, that this is a bold, gutsy decision of a leader who is not afraid to break the multiple logjams in defence acquisitions. Two, that it is a panicky decision to fill a crucial gap in a fast-depleting Indian Air Force Order of Battle (ORBAT) with obsolescence of the entire MiG series (MiG-29 apart), and is typical of our bandaid-tourniquet doctrine of defence purchases.*
> 
> There's truth in both arguments, though I am more inclined to the first view. This is a gutsy decision which breaks a stalemate and ends, at least for the moment, the vicious lobbying, leak-versus-leak battles in New Delhi. But there is also merit to the second view. How did India paint itself into such a corner, weakening its strategic posture? The result was it ended up making possibly a $5 billion purchase off-the-shelf in a wartime-like haste, embarrassing for the aspiring globaliser fielding the world's fourth largest army and listed, traditionally, as the top military importer in the world.
> 
> Stockholm-based SIPRI, which estimates import data in terms of constant 1990 value dollars, puts the value of India's total arms imports in five years (2010-14) at a little over $21 billion, and about three times the second largest, Saudi Arabia. Pakistan is a little bit behind, with just over a fourth of India's arms import bill, although that figure could need some correction for the complexities of putting a realistic value of imports from the US and China, both "special relationship" suppliers. The SIPRI figures look accurate if we compare them with the only reliable rupee data available with us, in the form of answers to Parliament questions: Arun Jaitley said India's arms imports were around Rs.83,000 crore in the past three years, and Manohar Parrikar saidRs.1,03,000 crore in five years, or $16 billion. But if you think 1990 rupee-dollar, SIPRI' s $21 billion would be in the ballpark.
> 
> *Two points arise from this. First, that Modi's decision to order these Rafale jets off-the-shelf was wise and brave, like a senior doctor risking immediate surgery to save a deteriorating patient. The second is a question. How did the fourth largest military machine in the world get itself in the ICU in the middle of the night over a weekend needing emergency surgery?*
> 
> *Or, to make it inconvenient for this columnist, you could summarise and reword the same questions as something like: Mr so-and-so, go get your head examined, how can you accuse a country importing more armaments than the next three countries in rankings together of suffering from a fear of buying? How can this country then be perpetually short of crucial weaponry? Aren't you a jumble of contradictions?*
> 
> These are perfectly valid questions and I have no defence except to say that* this reflects the multiple paradoxes and contradictions of India's defence planning. You want to appreciate this better, read this dubious honour of being the top importer along with the statements of successive service chiefs on crucial shortfalls. For me, the most telling statement of all came from General V.P. Malik, in the early days of Kargil in 1999 when he said in frustration: "We will fight with what we have." He was the chief of one of the world's largest and finest armies.*
> 
> 
> 
> To delve into this maze of contradictions, you need to write a couple of tomes. Some have been written too. My favourite is Arming Without Aiming, jointly written by the foremost expert on South Asian militaries, Stephen P. Cohen, and Sunil Dasgupta (who worked with me in this magazine two decades ago as a young reporter learning to cover defence). Both are based at Brookings in Washington now and bemoan lack of a culture of strategic thinking and planning in India. *The Indian doctrine, they imply, is purely tactical, episodic, immediate-need-based, and conforms to the basic Indian approach to all infrastructure: create shortages and then keep planning to deal with them.* My own most telling insight on this sits in my rather flimsy personal archives. It is a handwritten note scribbled with a pencil on a scrap from Jaswant Singh. He slipped it to me with a smile at a strategic affairs brainstorm at Schloss Leopoldskron, Salzburg, in the summer of 1994, as General Sundarji held forth on the weaknesses in India's strategic doctrine. "I headed the parliamentary committee to examine India's military-strategic doctrine," wrote Jaswant Singh. "We concluded there was no strategy and no doctrine."
> 
> *There is zero evidence this has changed. Because if it had, we would not be buying frontline fighters off-the-shelf as if picking groceries at a supermarket after 17 years of debates, controversies and near-scandals.* This has been the consistent history of our defence purchases except, say, a remarkable 1985-89 phase under Rajiv Gandhi which, sadly, became a problem and made our fear of buying an incurable virus. The result of this piecemeal approach is that our armed forces are under a constant stress with shortages. The same disease had plagued us during, and in the course of, every war, even if we leave out 1962 as an exception. We believe in 1971 Indira Gandhi and Jagjivan Ram gave the armed forces a free hand and time to build up fully before going to war. This included emergency, bulk import of used Soviet-made T-55 tanks from Poland, induction of heavy, but short-legged Sukhoi-7s for close support (it ended up with the highest attrition rate). And now, scholar Srinath Raghavan tells us in his wonderfully researched and written _1971: A Global History of the Creation of Bangladesh _that on the eve of 1971 the government of our greatest anti-Zionist, pro-Palestinian leader ever, Indira Gandhi, secretly pleaded with the Israelis for crucial weaponry, including long-range mortars, though we did not have diplomatic relations with them. Of course, the Israelis helped as they had done twice in the past.
> 
> *Remember the initial setbacks IAF suffered in Kargil, when two MiGs and a Mi-17 attack helicopter were lost and all crew were killed, except one taken POW? A fourth, a sturdy photo-reconnaissance Canberra (since retired), was nursed back to base by a deft crew. All were hit by shoulder-fired missiles. It needs to be said that it was because IAF commanders were still operating in old derring-do, precise, daylight, low-level strike missions of the pre-missile age. *The result was losses while very little was achieved with old-fashioned bombs, rockets and strafing. Once again, tactics changed after setbacks (recall the loss of all four obsolete Vampires sent out over Chamb in the first air battle of 1965, not to be used again in that war).
> 
> *Again in 1999, the IAF suffered no casualty in nearly 50 days of more effective operations after the first few. It not only changed tactics, but also imported-again from Israel in an emergency-laser pods to rig on Mirage-2000s to carry out precision bombing of Pakistani positions at night*. If you scratch your memory, or look at archives, those are the videos the IAF displayed at one of the press conferences in the decisive phase of that war and when the tide turned.
> 
> *This isn't meant to be a comprehensive litany of our short-termism. It is to explore a limited question, with apologies to Erica Jong: Why this fear of buying? Since 1987, one reason is the Bofors syndrome. Every defence purchase is fraught, delayed or "thrown in orbit" as Lutyens description goes for sending a file into a permanent spiral of indecision. This makes New Delhi the easiest playground for arms dealers, middlemen (by whatever name you call them) and a new phenomenon, the dedicated, B-to-B, arms bazaar media. Public is confused between negotiations, shifting requirements, a constant whiff of scandal and a belief that the system is owned by this massive, evil arms trade. At the same time, we continue importing more than any other nation in the world. You want a paradox: A.K. Antony, our most risk-averse, most anti-US defence minister since 1991, ended up buying more from the US, and directly, on government-to-government basis and off-the-shelf (C-130s, C-17s, P-8Is) than in our entire independent history. Modi has resumed that de-risked, emergency buying tradition, though with great dash.*
> 
> The only way to fight phobias is to face them. It is fashionable to curse Rajiv for Bofors and more, but the truth is, 1985-89 was the only period in our history that weapon acquisitions were proactive, futuristic and redefined the largely defensive tactical doctrines until then. Sundarji's Brasstacks and Checkerboard were aggressive and aimed at delivering crushing blows in enemy territory than merely protecting your own. The fear of Bofors has blighted South Block since. But think. In a war even today, bulk of the hardware the three forces will field was ordered by Rajiv, from Mirages to T-72 tanks to new series MiGs, BMP armoured fighting vehicles and, of course, Bofors artillery. In these years our defence budget crossed that Lakshman Rekha of 4 per cent of GDP.
> 
> Today it is well below 2 per cent of a growing GDP, and quite adequate. For a reality check, our five years' defence imports are two-thirds of our gold imports in a year and, more tellingly, less than a tenth of the import bill of Reliance Industries and about a seventh of Indian Oil Corporation, a PSU. But controversy dogs only defence imports not because they are huge, but because they are small, piecemeal, with many vendors, and the "system", wrapped-in-latex post-Bofors, is petrified of handling it. If you give up that fear, you can embark on another systematic modernisation as in 1985-89.
> 
> *If you don't, you will again land up in the ICU over a weekend needing emergency transfusion, if not surgery, soon enough.*
> 
> Defence deals create controversy because they are small, piecemeal, with many vendors. India must get over its post-Bofors paranoia : National Interest - India Today
> 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Another View
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *RAFALE DEAL
> In-A-Jam Solution
> How game changed, calling for new plan*
> 
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France was not entirely negative for sure. But many are looking at the two major deals announced—outright purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets, and the l&t-Areva agreement for constructing the epr nuclear reactors at Jaitapur in Maharashtra—as unmitigated disasters.
> 
> *The IAF has been thrown a juicy bone with the government-to-government acquisition of 36 Rafale jets. But this will materialise only two years down the line even if India is quick to sign the contract. Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s much-vaunted ‘Make in India’ policy, however, suffers a major setback. For Dassault Aviation, though, it’s a thumping victory.*
> 
> *For over three years, the contract for buying 126 Rafale jets had been foundering. In France, the reputation of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is rock-bottom. French defence majors who have worked with HAL describe it as “unprofessional and unreliable in the extreme”. *The original plan was to buy 18 aircraft in ready-to-fly condition. HAL was to produce 108 more under licence in India. But Dassault refused to take responsibility for planes manufactured by HAL. *Besides, there were disputes over pricing: an off-the-shelf purchase will cost India much more per aircraft than if the original deal had gone through. The actual transfer of technology will be limited and the outright purchase lets Dassault off the hook on that score. French sources place the value of this purchase at over Euro 5.5 billion. Dassault CEO Eric Trappier and his colleagues will be laughing their way to the bank.*
> 
> *Modi’s much-vaunted ‘Make in India’ policy suffers a huge setback. Dassault, however, strikes a Rs 50,000-crore deal.*
> 
> 
> 
> At one time, India had the French aviation giant in a squeeze. The French defence ministry had curtailed its order for Rafales from 11 aircraft per year to just 26 over the next six years. Dassault badly needed the oxygen of foreign sales. India thought it could press the company for an even better deal: but there comes a point beyond which negotiations stall. The IAF badly needs the fighters: the government should have been careful not to push to the brink. On February 12, France announced the sale of 24 Rafales to Egypt, to be bankrolled by Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Now, Dassault was in a dramatically better bargaining position. No longer did it have to accommodate New Delhi’s manoeuvring over prices or over manufacturing by HAL. Dassault could afford to drag out the negotiations.
> 
> *In India, pressure was building up. Paris told New Delhi that failure of the Rafale contract could seriously dent Indo-French relations. The IAF, realising the deal could collapse, raised the ante. And French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian made three trips to Delhi between December and March. In December, the India defence minister had told Le Drian he would accelerate the process. By February, the tide turned against India. In March, New Delhi told Paris that in the face of Dassault’s newfound intransigence, another urgent solution had to be found—outright purchase. On April 7, French President Francois Hollande and Le Drian discussed and finalised their response to New Delhi. It was kept secret: even HAL chairman and CEO T. Suvarna Raju learnt of the purchase from the newspapers while in Paris.*
> 
> *Insiders in the defence industry say other producers and suppliers would also have been reluctant to accept the global tender route, especially if HAL conditionality was retained. Also, they said, the Indian private sector is not yet equipped to collaborate on high-tech projects such as making sophisticated fighter jets. A specialist defence journalist says, in the short run, Modi’s ‘Make in India’ ambitions are unrealistic.*
> 
> For India, the relationship with France is crucial. Though a middle-level power, France is a defence major, and can provide high-tech products and services in infrastructure, transport and waste disposal and in the fields of nano, nuclear and space technologies. France is also a permanent member of the un Security Council; New Delhi is counting on French support for its membership bid. But that’s another matter. Many political observers are of the opinion that, given the nature of Paris’s own vested interest in the status quo on UNSC membership and its close ties with Germany, it’s doubtful if France will go the extra mile for India.
> 
> In-A-Jam Solution | Vaiju Naravane
> 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Another view
> Nitin Gokhle (The one who too DM M Parrikar's interview in DD)
> *A Bold Political Decision for a Crucial Defence Need*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nitin A Gokhale, Editor & Senior Fellow, VIF
> 
> The saga for procurement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF) actually began in 2001, gathered steam in 2007 and was stuck in price negotiations for the past three years. Meanwhile, the IAF's combat fighter jet strength was depleting fast. Over the past couple of years, the Air Force top brass was alarmed enough to tell the government that its conventional combat edge even against Pakistan was in danger of being lost.
> 
> So last week, hours before Prime Minister Narendra Modi embarked on his three-nation tour, a political decision was taken to explore the option of buying Rafale jets through a government-to-government (G-to-G) contract with France. The breakthrough will now allow the IAF to induct Rafale fighter jets in a two year time frame and at least partially make up for its depleting combat jet strength.
> 
> *However, it is the next step in aircraft procurement that will be watched intently. Will this decision of going for G-to-G mean that all future purchases of this magnitude will be handled in this manner? If so, what happens to the much-touted Make in India programme? The roadmap is not clear but Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar gave enough hints about what the government is thinking in an interview that this writer co-hosted on Monday for Doordarshan *(Rafel Vaayusena Ki Jaroorat, Sawal Bemani: Parrikar - YouTube).
> 
> *Not surprisingly, skeptics have hit out at the decision. The criticism has ranged from "it's too little too late," to "it goes against the Make in India concept." But both Modi and Parrikar were clear that they had to put the interest of the IAF above everything else and which what they have done. Mind you, procuring 36 Rafales is just a stop-gap arrangement to arrest the rapidly falling numbers in IAF's combat fleet.*
> 
> Lauding the Prime Minister for taking a bold decision in breaking the Rafale deadlock, Parrikar said future large procurements for the IAF and indeed for the armed forces at large, will have to be G-2-G but Make in India will also get a look in for other projects. For instance,* IF more Rafales, were to be bought--over and above 36 decided now--Dassault could be asked to manufacture them in India. Even if any other lighter aircraft was to be selected, the pre-condition will be a tie-up with an Indian company or consortium.*
> 
> *It is to Parrikar's credit that he decided to think differently on a knotty issue and suggested a way out to the Prime Minister. In fact, in less than six months after taking over, Parrikar has studied various complex issues dogging the defence ministry and has come to his own conclusions on what needs to be done*. By his own admission, Parrikar spent the first four months as defence minister in taking inputs from a range of experts both within and outside the MoD before making up his mind.
> 
> In his review, Parrikar also found that the bureaucracy in the ministry—both civil and military--was sitting on some 400-odd big and small projects that are critical to the three armed forces. Without getting into details, he said: “The first thing I did was to look at projects that are stuck at various stages of clearances since the most common complaint across the board was ‘nothing moves’ in the MoD.” A thorough review revealed that nearly one-third of the 400-odd projects were now irrelevant. So they were discarded. About 50 projects were accelerated since they were of critical importance.
> 
> A decade-long impasse in defence acquisitions has been broken with the decision on Rafale, raising renewed hope in the sector. Parrikar has brought in a sense of purpose in the notoriously obdurate MoD bureaucracy. “*There was no control over the system. There were no reviews, no feedback and there was no fear of punishment for non-performance. An important ministry like Defence cannot run like this,” Parrikar said in an interview. So he has now instututed a time-bound performance review system aimed at speedy clearances and implementation of projects.*
> 
> Hopefully, the new measures will revitalise the functioning of the crucial arm of the government in coming months.
> 
> 
> A Bold Political Decision for a Crucial Defence Need | Vivekananda International Foundation



Beautiful, well researched and well written piece from Shekar Gupta.

*No Strategy, and No Doctrine* sums it up. Modi and Parrikar has their jobs cut out.

Funny how the MoD or the Armed Forces looses no sleep over this. Shows why we are, where we are.

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## Abingdonboy



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## monitor

*Taking The Final Call On What Was Originally Proposed By France On February 20, 2006*


*Chronology Of The M-MRCA Procurement Saga*
* Indian Air Force (IAF) formulates its Air Staff Qualitative Requirement (ASQR) for medium multi-role combat aircraft (M-MRCA) in the late 1990s.
** *Request for Information (RFI) for 126 M-MRCAs, with an option for another 63, issued in late 2001. 

*** Dassault Aviation offers to supply 40 Rafale M-MRCAs to the IAF in a single-source G-to-G deal. The offer is made by Charles Edelstenne, the then CEO of Dassault Aviation, when he calls on the then Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh in New Delhi on February 20, 2006*.*The IAF’s then Deputy Chief of the Air Staff Air Marshal A K Nangalia is also present at this meeting. Edelstenne is part of the entourage of the then visiting French President Jacques Chirac.

***Issuance of a Request for Proposals (RFP) was planned for December 2005. However, the formal 211-page RFP is released only on August 28, 2007. The RFP contains single-stage two-bid system criterion (separate quotes for the technical and for commercial evaluation forming part of the submissions from various concerned OEMs). Bidders are given a time-frame of six months to respond to the RFP by March 2008. The RFP includes a direct industrial offsets obligation of 50%, raised from the original official requirement of 30% as contained in the Ministry of Defence’s (MoD) Defence Procurement Procedures of 2006. The RFP states that the IAF will initially acquire of 86 single-seat and 40 two-seat M-MRCAs, and retain the option to acquire another 63 M-MRCAs at a future date. Of the 126, 12 single-seaters and six tandem-seaters are required to be supplied off-the-shelf in flyaway condition, while the remaining 108 are to be licence-built in India. This will include 74 single-seaters and 34 tandem-seaters, of which 11 will be built from semi-knocked down (SKD) kits, 31 will be built from completely knocked down (CKD) kits, and 66 made from indigenously manufactured kits (IMK).
* By late May 2009, the IAF’sTechnical Evaluation Committee (TEC) concludes itstechnical and staff evaluations of the RFP responses from the six bidders.
***Sequential in-country flight evaluations of all six contenders begin in mid-August 2009 and continue through to May2010.Two teams of IAF test-pilots conduct the flight evaluations at Bengaluru, Leh and Jaisalmer. Besides possessing cold-weather terrain, Leh is a high-altitude location, while Jaisalmer is a desert area where hot winds blow. Planning for the trial schedule began in early 2009, with the IAF test-pilots being trained at the respective bidder’s country of origin to fly the aircraft, under Phase-1. Phase-2 calls for flight-trials in Indian airspace and in Phase-3, the six M-MRCA contenders are run through a series of tests to check the efficacy of their guided-munitions by firing them at firing ranges located within the respective bidder’s country of origin.



*All six flightevaluation reports, duly vetted by theTechnical Oversight Committee (TOC),are completed by mid-July 2010.
** *In April 2011, the IAF shortlists Dassault Aviation’s Rafale and Eurofighter GmbH’s EF-2000 Typhoon.



*** On January 31, 2012, the MoD announces that the Rafale has been selected as the IAF’s new-generation M-MRCA and estimates that contractual negotiations should be completed by October 2012 by the MoD’s Commercial Negotiations Committee (CNC) after receiving approvals from the Competent Financial Authority (CFA).



*** On April 10, 2015, the Govt of India formally requests both the French government and Dassault Aviation to supply on a G-to-G basis 36 Rafales (32 single-seaters and four tandem-seaters) as soon as possible, subject to contract negotiations for these 34 Rafales being successfully concluded within a 90-day period. Concurrently, supplementary contracts will be inked with SNECMA Moteurs for two spare M88 turbofans, with Dassault Aviation for ground-support hardware for first- and second-line MRO, with THALES for a cockpit procedures trainer and a full-flight tactical training simulator, with MBDA for the guided-weapons package, and with Dassault Aviation for a maintenance training simulator.

Eventually, in the fullness of time, the IAF will end up with 189 Rafale M-MRCAs. That's a given. But the negotiations had got stuck over the cost of licenced-production of the 108 units. India was haggling over the labour cost parameters that are graded from 1 to 10. While the Russians had obtained Grade 6 for the Su-30MKI licenced-production programme, the French were asking for 8, while the Indians wanted it to be limited to 7. So, in the end, a compromise was struck under which India would order 36 Rafales off-the-shelf without any offsets of any kind and the French in turn would tone down their stance & come down to 7. Therefore, in nett terms, the French have won and India’s illogical negotiating shortsightedness (from 2012 till now) has been fully exposed. And NaMo too has realised at last that there are clear technological and human resource limits to how far the ‘Make in India’ mantra can be flogged. And this deal for 36 Rafales was conceived entirely by Union Finance Minister Arun Jaitley and was fully endorsed by the PMO. Everyone else was in the dark on this issue. If 153 Rafales can be similarly ordered in successive tranches, then that will be the ideal solution. Because paying an exorbitant price for the so-called licenced-production of Rafales just to keep a few thousand employees of HAL gainfully employed for the next 20 years DOES NOT stand up to logic. Nor does such licenced-production lead to self-reliance of any kind anywhere. Far better therefore to utilise the money saved for the Tejas Mk2/LCA (Navy) Mk2 R & D effort, where at least 80% indigenisation can be expected in all domains except for the propulsion system.

*‘Make in India’ For Rafale Has Already Begun*
As for those ‘desi’ journalists claiming that the off-the-shelf procurement/s of the Rafale M-MRCA will pose a huge setback to the Govt of India’s ‘Make in India’ industrial promotion policy, the poster below shows just how totally wrong these ‘desi’ journalists are. They obviously did not do their homework during the Aero India 2015 expo last February! 




*Ukraine-Origin Products On-Board Su-30MKI*
When the Soviet Union dissolved in late 1991, Ukraine was left with about 30% of the Soviet-era military-industrial facilities on its territory, including about 750 factories and 140 scientific and technical institutions. Presently, 300 enterprises, institutions and organisations employing more than 250,000 people are producing military equipment in Ukraine. Of these, 75 are registered as manufacturers of military products and services that are subject to state secrecy, including rocket and guided-missile technologies. 



The state holding company Ukroboronprom, established in 2010, oversees 134 Ukrainian state-owned military-industrial enterprises that employ 120,000 workers. Ukraine exports the rest, in the amount of US$1.3 billion worth of arms annually, which made Ukraine the eighth-largest weapons exporter in the world between 2009 and 2013. Ukroboronprom’s sales reached US$1.79 billion in 2013, an increase of 17% in 2012. Russia was the third-largest buyer of Ukraine-origin military hardware from 2009 to 2013, after the PRC and Pakistan.



Following Russia’s annexation of Crimea in March 2014, Ukroboronprom decided to halt all exports of weaponry and military-industrial hardware to Russia, whose outstanding orders from Ukraine in the civilian and defence sectors were at that time valued at more than US$15 billion. Terminating these contracts has adversely affected 79 Ukrainian and 859 Russian military-industrial firms. Ukrainian exports represent only a small fraction—between 4% and 7%—of Russia’s overall military imports. The number of buyers of Ukraine’s nuclear and ballistic missile technologies is fairly small but includes the PRC, North Korea, Syria, and Iran. PRC and North Korean agents have on several occasions been caught attempting to break into YUZHMASH for trying to acquire long-range ballistic missile technologies.






Ukraine’s total arms exports have been growing steadily, from US$20 million in 1994 to US$600 million in 1997 and US$1.5 billion in 2001. In 2002 the Industrial Policy Ministry of Ukraine and China’s Commission for Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense (COSTIND) signed a protocol on cooperation in the military-industrial arena.Ukraine’s present-day weapons shipments to China in 2002 amounted to a mere US$50 million a year. In 2002, Ukraine became the world’s fourth-largest weapons exporter and sold weapons and military technologies to China worth US$700 million, which accounted for 31% of Ukrainian exports that year. In 2011, 43% of Ukraine-built weapons were sold to the PRC, while in 2013 Ukraine became the PRC’s second-largest trade partner in the CIS, while China became Ukraine’s biggest military customer in Asia.

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## migflug

SOURCE: ASIAN AGE







It is an excellent move to sign a G2G deal on Rafale fighter aircraft but a ridiculous step if the government decides to restrict it to 36 jets, considering the size of the Indian Air Force, says former Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major. The request for proposal for purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft was issued to six firms, including Dassault Aviation, when he was at the helm of affairs at IAF. Excerpts:

Q. *What are your views on the government-to-government deal for acquisition of Rafale fighter jets?*
We are adept at signing such deals as we have done it with the United States for C-17 Globemaster and the C-130J Super Hercules. It means that the RPF (request for proposal) for MMRCA will become irrelevant, and be cancelled. But the government must make it clear about how many (Rafale jets) will finally be acquired. If that number is only 36, it will be ridiculous because the idea is not to have too many types of aircraft for the IAF. The plan of the IAF was to have frontline squadrons of Su-30, MMRCA, Tejas and the FGFA (fifth generation fighter aircraft).It will be a nightmare to maintain a diverse inventory of fighters along with their spares and the supply chain. If we stop at 36, will be have another aircraft to perform the role of MMRCA?

Q. *But the Rafale was rejected by many countries, even a wealthy nation like Saudi Arabia?*
They could have rejected it for some reason or the other, but remember that the IAF adopted one of the most stringent selection processes to shortlist the Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon. The other countries rejected Rafale fighters for reasons which we are not aware of.

Q. *And, acquiring these fighters off the shelf means no transfer of technology to Indian companies?*
No country in the world will part with source codes and other strategic information as part of transfer of technology (TOT), but anything could happen if our government decides to acquire more of these fighters. If that happens, Dassault Aviation could select either a private enterprise or HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd) as it already has a good infrastructure and a number of private entities supplying thousands of components and subsystems. And whether it is HAL or the private player, they will have about two to three years to build the infrastructure before these 36 fighters arrive in India. Don’t forget that a private player can get the best employee from anywhere in the world, and pay them well, which is not the case with HAL because it is a defence public sector undertaking. So more qualified employees means better quality and faster manufacture of fighters.

Q. *The defence minister says the IAF does not require a fleet of 42 squadrons, and could manage with fewer fighter jets because of better missile capability than in the past. Do you agree?*
Partly, yes, but the number of squadrons depends on the threat perception, the weapons of adversaries and many other aspects.

If it is a scenario involving threats from two fronts, then we need 42 squadrons. Otherwise, with thirty nine and a half squadrons and the missiles, we could manage the threat. Now, we have only about 32 squadrons and that number must increase. There’s no doubt about that (enhancing the number of squadrons).

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## migflug

*The shock and awe in Rafale deal*
SOURCE : TRIBUNE INDIA

ON a tolerable day in Paris when the temperature was a balmy 21 degrees, Prime Minister Narendra Modi may have appeared to have flunked his first test for a man who claimed defence manufacturing was at the heart of his Make-in-India programme to create more jobs.
Emerging from talks with French President Francoise Hollande, Modi junked a decade-long selection process for fighter planes by announcing the immediate purchase of 36 Rafale fighters from the stable of the politically well-connected Dassault family.
This effectively buried the previous government’s grand plans of transparency in the selection process and leveraging the huge tender (initially Rs 42,000 crore, but now in the region of Rs 1.2 lakh crore) to create a hub of high tech in India by asking the winning company to source half the tender amount from India.
For the first time since he took power, Modi was also exposed to murmurs of having jettisoned transparency. The recent auctions for telecom spectrum and coal blocks were smooth affairs and netted the government much beyond what it had bargained for. But the bolt-from-the-blue approach to consummating the deal for fighters with France was not helped by a flurry of Tweets by Subramanian Swamy, an inveterate Modi backer, or the explanation that it had now become a Government-to-Government (G2G) deal.
The Indian armed forces have long been used to purchases of defence equipment taking a long slow route that lasts decades. The British advanced jet trainer was finally bought 20 years after talks first opened and several trainee pilots along with experienced teach-off and landing speeds spell trouble in case of a slight miscalculation. The hunt for a replacement to Bofors artillery guns has run through the tenures of the Vajpayee and Manmohan Singh governments, and there is no end in sight yet.
On cusp of a Bofors moment?
As was the case with Bofors guns, Rafale is an excellent plane. No arguments about that though Subramanian Swamy thought otherwise up to the moment Modi signed the pact with France. As was the case with Bofors, the Indian Air Force desperately needs planes that can perform several functions — fly low and long to bomb targets and get up in the air quickly to have enough maneuverability to take on enemy planes trying to bomb an airfield, bridge or an oil refinery. So, did he do the right thing by short-circuiting the elaborate toothcombing by the Defence Ministry by placing an order for 36 ready-made planes?
Apart from the bare cupboard of the Army when Rajiv Gandhi opted for Bofors and of the IAF when Modi inked the pact for 36 Rafale fighters, there is little in common between the two decisions.
The tender for 126 medium fighter planes was supposed to be different. With Sonia Gandhi as Chairperson, the United Progressive Alliance knew better than any regime the political fallout of a defence bribery scandal. Bofors made Rajiv Gandhi’s 400-plus seat cushion in Lok Sabha a bitter memory and the purchase of coffins during George Fernandes’ tenure at the Defence Ministry contributed to the erosion of goodwill earned by the Vajpayee government for astutely managing the Kargil conflict.
So, taking a lesson from both, the UPA installed AK Antony as Defence Minister and made nearly all mega purchases of defence equipment into a competitive affair in which all bidders were invited for pre and post-bid conferences. What must have been on top of Modi’s mind was that neither of the two approaches worked and some crucial sectors in defence seemed to be slipping back to the pre-Kargil state of neglect. Antony was prone to referring every single complaint to the Central Bureau of Investigation, even if it was an innocuous Defence Ministry letter with nil security implications. And the competitive tender approach activated the dirty tricks department of almost every company in the fray, causing Antony to defer a decision on multi role helicopters, artillery guns and, of course, the 126 fighter plane tender.
In the 126 plane tender, Dassault, a veteran of the Indian defence market since 1957, was unwilling to guarantee the delivery schedules of planes to be made in India, nor was it ready to lower the price — which had ballooned to Rs 1.8 lakh crore by January this year.
India was also caught in a diplomatic tangle with France. Its company Areva was unable to set up six nuclear plants in Maharashtra despite a written assurance by then Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and despite Paris having been among the most enthusiastic in urging some recalcitrant Nuclear Suppliers’ Group (NSG) countries to vote to end India’s exclusion from the global commerce mainstream. Also, it was unable to act on assurances of an early order to Rafale given to previous French President Nicolas Sarkozy (whose party is backed by the Dassault family) as well as the incumbent, who too would like to remain on the right side of the Dassault clan.
So far the 36 plane order might not be a fit case for approaching the courts. This is because technically Modi has simply expressed his intention to buy the planes and nothing more. It is also untrue that no country is interested in Rafale. Egypt has an order for 24 and Qatar and UAE are reported to be interested as well.
More Rafale purchases
Since the announcement was made by the top executive authority of India, it cannot be cancelled. So it can be argued that India will now be forced to purchase more and more of Rafale planes to make up for the shortfall of MiGs, that are gradually being pulled out from active services. But the urge to somehow meet IAF’s requirement — if it was really that — has also undoubtedly weakened India’s negotiating position for better terms for maintenance.
Modi’s real test will come when negotiators sit down to pencil the fineprint. India will seek technology transfer while France is bound to seek a firm commitment for more planes. India must also get the software source code so that it can refigure the weapon systems and onboard equipment. A competitive approach was always going to be difficult. Most of India’s defence acquisitions have been through the direct negotiations route, be they the three aircraft carriers so far, the Sukhois, the T-90 tanks, frigates and destroyers, the AN-32, Il-76, C-17 and C-130 transport planes or even the Bofors guns. Technology transfer was also not negotiated in advance in many of the cases.
What Modi has to watch out for is better terms and conditions when his negotiators sit down to map the delivery schedules of the 36 planes and future orders. No one would be more competent to detect the chinks in the deal than the present Comproller and Auditor General of India, who was the Director General (Acquisitions) and then the Defence Secretary when the tender route was being pursued.

*Rafale fighter aircraft*

*2 countries have itOnly France and Egypt have placed an order, while UAE and Qatar are interested in buying Rafale fighers. Some countries will wait for India to purchase, but Pakistan and China unlikely to get it.Comfort factorIndian Air Force has been using Dassault-made fighters since 1957, many parts in common with MirageCombat recordAfghanistan: Operation Enduring Freedom (2002-present)
Libya: Operation Unified Protector (2011)Multi-role planeAccording to Dassault Aviation, Rafale can carry out both air-to-ground strikes as well as air-to-air attacks and interceptionsDelivery dateIndia will not receive its first Rafale fighter jet for up to two-and-a-half years and tricky issues, including pricing, still need to be worked outParameters
Gun
One 30-mm cannon for dogfights and strafingStations12 external hardpoints and two wingtip railsAir-to-Air MissileFor dogfights: MICAAir-to-Surface MissileFor ground attacks, Exocet and
nuclear-capable missilesBomb1,000-kg laser guided bombsOther featuresRocket pods, Electronic Counter Measure pods*
*



*​*5 that lost out
Grippen (Swedish): Power plant not much better than Tejas, a light fighter being developed in India. Made for action in Europe that doesn’t require a big range*
*



*​*Eurofighter:Came second after Rafale. Big tail diminishes stealth capability. A product of consortium of four nations, some with predilection for sanctions*
*



*​*F-16: Pakistani pilots very well versed with this fighter; home country US prone to imposing sanctions*
*



*​*F-18: Work horse of US Air Force, not very good maneuverability; US prone to imposing sanctions*
*



*​


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## migflug

*New fighters for IAF: 5 yrs in the makingThe loss of MiG-21s during the Kargil conflict and superior performance by the French Mirage in hitting Pakistani forces’ supply lines contributed to the enemy capitulation and made the Atal Bihari Vajpayee government taking up Indian Air Force’s request for new fighters in real earnest in 2000. 2001
The government issues a request for information (RFI) but there was scepticism in some international capitals about India’s ability to afford such a large tender, then estimated at $10.2 billion.

 2007Action hots up after the normalisation of bilateral relations with Washington following the Indo-US nuclear deal in 2006. Besides the F-16 (made by arms and space major Lockheed Martin), the US government asks India to also consider Boeing’s F 18\A Super Hornet. Government issues tenders asking six companies to test their fighters in India.

 2008The competing companies — two American, three European and one Russian — submit voluminous bids, covering about 600 parameters. Planes start getting tested by Indian pilots at various locations from Leh at its coldest to restricted landing strips in the Indian Ocean and Bay of Bengal.

 2011
French company Dassault’s Rafale comes out on top on various parameters with the four-nation consortium’s Eurofighter in second place. Bids by Russia, both American companies as well as a Swedish company are rejected.

2012
Dassault is officially acknowledged as having passed all the tests and emerged as the lowest bidder for 18 planes to be delivered in readymade condition and 108 planes to be made in India. The deal by now is 50 per cent higher than the original estimates.

2013Negotiations with Dassault continue and are nearly finalised but BJP leader Yashwant Sinha and then Rajya Sabha MP MV Mysoora Reddy consider it their “patriotic duty” to complain about loopholes in the deal. Then Defence Minister AK Antony orders officials to re-examine the deal.

2014As elections approach, Antony citing inadequate funds decides to put the deal on hold despite vigorous campaigning by French politicians.

2015Taking everyone by surprise, Prime Minister Narendra Modi announces that India will buy 36 readymade Rafael planes from Dassault. On the fate of the 126-plane tender, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar says one car can’t drive in two directions at the same time, meaning Dassault will take the MMRCA cake. Parrikar attempts to gloss over the decision by saying this will be now a Government-to-Government (G2G) deal.THE PROBLEM INDIAN AIR FORCE FACES


Indian Air Force wants 45 fighter squadrons (18 in each squadron) for a two-front collusive threat. Many bombers and interceptors, all from the MiG stable, are to retire over the next five-six years.
Government authorised strength is 42 squadrons
IAF today has 25 active fighter squadrons, according to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence. But IAF claims the number is 39.
14 squadrons of MiG-21 (Vikram\Trishul, now Bison) and MiG-27 (Bahadur) aircraft to retire by 2024
Canberras, used for bombing runs, have already retired
Theoretically, the squadron strength will go down to 11 if there are no replacements.
But that is the worst case scenario. At least 13 Sukhois planes are getting inducted every year, almost the entire remaining fleet is getting life extension/more potent engines and weapon suites
Action Plan to arrest depletion


272 Su-30 MKI to form 13 squadrons by 2020
11 more Sukhoi\Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) squadrons
Development of Light Combat Aircraft ‘Tejas’ by HAL accelerated, at least six squadrons are projected
3 Mirage (Vajra) squadrons being upgraded
Therefore, Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (Rafale): 2 squadrons or 36 fighters to be with IAF by 2020, 4 to 5 more squadrons subsequently. Can perform both ground attack and interception functions. Lighter than Sukhoi.
6 Jaguar (Shamsher) squadrons to be upgraded
MiG-29 (Baaz) 68 being upgraded
Plane mounted radars – AWACS – to boost potency
Voices for, against 


One car cannot run on two roads… this is a much better deal… the cost per jet would now be cheaper. Buying 126 (fighters) would cost India about
Rs 1 lakh crore. Can we spend so much money on a high-end fighter? – Manohar Parrikar, Defence Minister


When my PIL is ready on Rafale, I will send it in a sealed cover to the party president for sanction to prosecute… Rafale is a less fuel efficient aircraft and lacks essential performance characteristics – Subramanian Swamy, Bjp leader



The life cycle maintenance calculations for the 126-plane tender are wrong. Favouritism has been shown to Rafale –  Yashwant Sinha, BJP leader, in a letter to then defence minister ak antony



There are irregularities in the evaluation process and the entire matter should be probed. Why has Rafale, not bought by any other country, been chosen for the Indian Air Force? Its performance in the recent air campaign in Libya was poor and the Rafale failed in precision bombing – MV Mysoora Reddy, then MP, in another letter to antony

Rafale are not poor quality, but India will have to pay an arm and a leg for it at over $200 million per unit cost. The more advanced Su-30, with full ordnance load, comes in at less than half the price – Bharat Karnad, centre for policy research


*


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## migflug

*‘36’ – Let the force be with India*
SOURCE: ASIAN AGE






PM Modi’s decision to purchase 36 Rafale fighters ‘off the shelf’ from Dassault and the promise to buy another 30 without a tech-transfer regenerated a new debate on not just India’s vulnerable security and its vastly-depleted air cover but the need for a proactive PM like Modi to plug the lacunae in our defence

Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s decision to buy 36 Rafale multi-role fighter jets off-the-shelf from France in a government-government deal was a surprise, but it was timely and bold, putting at rest rumors and debates that tend to show the country and its decision-making process in poor light. We are bombarded with information and some disinformation. Invariably, facts get dulled when emotions rise.

We must understand why we got into a situation in which we had to abandon a more than 15-year long process to acquire fighters for the air force and finally take a different path, something no nation can afford to do repeatedly if it’s to defend its borders and undertake military missions.

The possibility of having to import combat aircraft for the IAF became a reality after a review of the Project Definition Phase of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft, later to be named Tejas, in 1993/94. The review indicated that the LCA project would slip by 10 years, if not more. The Aeronautical Development Agency, which ran the LCA program, was untested and the Committee System of management (with too many members) instituted to run it served only to dilute accountability for the project.

With the LCA thus delayed and unavailable to replace the depleting and ageing fleet of MiGs in the IAF, the status of combat aircraft inventory started to get critical. The capability gaps created by the retiring fleet could not be augmented adequately, although upgrading MIG-21s, Jaguars and the gradual induction of Sukhoi fighters helped ensure aircraft availability for missions. Around 20 used MIG-21 two-seaters (from Russia and Central Asian Republic) were procured as a desperate measure to fill the gap of a supersonic combat trainer. The IAF even got permission to explore the possibility of procuring used Mirage-2000 from UAE / Qatar, but even as France was on the verge of shutting down the production line of the Mirage-2000, a light combat aircraft that had served well and buying more of which was the first option considered by the IAF, the used Mirage fighters from UAE / Qatar were not found to be a cost-effective option.

That was when the Rafale fighter was examined as a possibility (This was around time that American fighters were still out-of-bounds for India). Simultaneously, information was obtained on status of development of Gripen, a design that was closest to the Light Combat Aircraft. The Euro-Fighter Typhoon had still a long way to go and was not even on offer at the time. The Ministry of Defence was informed of the necessity to augment the fighter fleet through import. Had the LCA come up on time, perhaps we would not have gotten into the acquisition process for the Medium Multi- Role Combat Aircraft, as the competition for the multi-billion dollar deal came to be known, for at least another 10 years or so, until a new exigency arose.

Many are now saying that we could have done better by buying more Sukhoi aircraft, but the Su-30MKI is a large aircraft (over 30 tons) and has extensive capability. When we bought them, it was a new concept for IAF which took a cautious approach, initially limiting orders to around 40, and gradually increasing the numbers.

But the Air Force needed a large number of smaller and lighter combat aircraft of MIG-21 / LCA class. The Request for Proposal for what was initially 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) then became one that added on medium-weight aircraft, too, encompassing a variety – from the Gripen- an LCA class fighter to the F-16 and Mirage-2000 class, the F-18 improved variant was possibly as big as the SU-30MKI and the Rafale and Euro Fighter Typhoon that were larger than the F-16s and two-engined. These last two being from the latest vintage, employed more advanced engineering and design offering capabilities and flexibility not envisaged before.

That is about the time when the strategic situation was undergoing change – Pakistan was not the only adversary and crossing the Himalayas posed more challenges. It was an even greater challenge for the MOD, facing severe budgetary constraints for modernization of the military and not just the Air Force alone. The government was constantly under fire.

The number 126 as the requirement of number of fighters is magical, typically arrived at by MOD Finance to limit the numbers, after considering the Air Force’s demand. Oddly, such numbers somehow appear authentic — 66 AJT, 76 Jaguars, 106 more Pilatus, 36 Rafale etc (ending in 6 may have been considered lucky!). These numbers never made sense. We built more Jaguars and ordered additional Hawks. There are good reasons to believe more Rafale jets will follow the current 36 to be ordered. In fact, it is difficult to sustain two Squadrons with 36, since that number does not leave reserves for maintenance/repair. Experience shows that it is easier to push additional orders if the aircraft is produced in India under licence. (We placed additional orders of HS-748 and Dornier 228 just to keep HAL going).

But has licence manufacture, as the original plan for 126 Rafale jets was, helped to ‘Make in India’? The answer is ‘Yes’ since technically these would be made in India. But does it promise self-reliance? The answer is an emphatic NO. Hundreds of licence manufacture of MIG series, Jaguars, Hawk, Su-30MKI in no way helped in developing and manufacturing indigenous design. Processes and machines acquired for licence manufacture have had limited usage once the line is closed. Production technology in no way helps to design and develop. Importantly, the total cost of licence manufacture is far more than direct purchase since it also included IPR, documents, travel and support, training etc. Direct purchase has least risks, is least expensive and if Off-Set clauses are applied (that would also cost) could help develop domestic small and medium enterprises.

The Rafale experience should therefore teach us that we need to be self-reliant. And the only way to reach achieve self-reliance is to design and produce from scratch – intelligently applying knowledge and developing skills on the way. ‘To Evolve’ is the key. We could always hire experts from anywhere in the world when needed as we did to develop the Marut or the ALH.

Developing and producing indigenously is a matter of pride. HT-2, HPT-32, Marut, ALH, LCH, LCA etc generated very special enthusiasm and pride. We are capable of meeting all our requirements of ‘Light Helicopters’ and Trainer aircraft but the push for import is discouraging. What could be the reasons?

We have no faith in our own ability to design and produce by specified time, to the performance desired and at the cost envisaged. No one seems accountable. The military has little say in projects once initiated. Often, the frustration turns on the Users. The military is the user and it is not their decision to buy or make. That is the privilege of the government. Today, the Intermediate Jet Trainer is languishing – a relatively simple design. Our most strategic need to develop a Jet Engine has consumed billions of rupees but it seems to be heading nowhere. The Air Force cannot push any of these projects!

We are not sure what lies beyond the order for 36 Rafal jets. I am one of the optimists. All stars appear favorable; we have capable leadership whom we must trust. We must invest in a big way in the LCA Mk-II, the ALH, LCH, LUH and all the rest that are to follow. We should no longer import things that we can design and make ourselves. Accountability must be ruthlessly enforced and initiative must be encouraged. The user – the Indian military — must be firmly in the saddle to drive their programs. Indian Aeronautics keenly awaits a new dawn. We must not miss this opportunity.

*S. Krishnaswamy is a former Chief of Air Staff*


Aq to veteran officer we r going to have 66 rafales!!


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## wiseone2

*Modi’s “Flyaway” French Deal*
Friday 17 April 2015, by M K Bhadrakumar

If Libya’s Muammar Gaddafi were alive, we could have asked him how the French get around authoritarian rulers and tin-pot dictators from the developing countries who carry fat cheque books in their pockets while travelling abroad. As the dreamy picture in _The Hindu _newspaper immortalises the moment for historians of Indian diplomacy, the French leadership went the whole hog to make Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit memorable.

The entire leadership—President, Prime Minister, Foreign Minister and the charming Mayor of Paris herself—kept aside their weekend to escort Modi on a Seine cruise. _Howzaat_? That would make President Barack Obama go green with envy. Even with the alluring “Belt and Road”, President Xi Jinping could not get such a welcome as Modi got, worthy of a Haile Selassie, the Rastafarian messiah, the lion of Judah. (In fact, the French hosts even allowed a protest march by the Tibetans when Xi arrived.)

Now, that was all for a very good reason. The French got, finally, what they wanted, namely, a revision of the terms of conditions of the MMRCA deal that would absolve them of the need to make the Rafale fighter aircraft in the shoddy Indian defence factories.

Any vendor would love to sell rather than co-produce with the buyer, but the previous United Progressive Alliance Government was adamant for some strange reason that the French should stick to the terms of the tender under which they had won the deal. Maybe, it was the then Defence Minister A.K. Antony’s magical touch. Or, maybe, the UPA didn’t want yet another scam of arms procurement by the Indian armed forces on its hands.

At any rate, Modi has now blinked. Period. We should wait for Subramanian Swamy to redeem his pledge to file a suit in the Supreme Court in order to get to the bottom of what really happened for the Modi Government to mothball the original MMRCA deal and instead opt for the “flyaway” Rafale.

No matter the spin being given, the chilling truth is that the MMRCA deal has been arbitrarily revised by Modi on a balmy weekend afternoon in Paris. Just like that. And, that too, without even India’s Defence Minister being involved in his discussions in Paris with his fawning French hosts. The fact that Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was inaugurating a fish stall in his home State of Goa even as Modi was striking the “flyaway” Rafale deal in Paris speaks volumes about India’s cabinet system of government during the Modi era. It’s a disgrace. People usually call such countries “banana republics”.

The spin being given is that the French are selling at a competitive price. Of course, they will quote a good price. What else would you expect from shrewd businessmen? Because, any vendor knows that the trick is to somehow make the entry into the market. Good money can always be made in the downstream of such deals while selling spare parts and servicing the product and so on without having to go through open tenders.

Besides, the Indians have now no option but to buy dozens and dozens more of Rafale aircraft. The Indian Air Force is “locked in”. It can’t be that the IAF’s need for Rafale ends with 36 aircraft after having trained an entire cadre of personnel to fly and maintain the aircraft.

Don’t the French know all this from previous experience with the Jaguar deal? And when the deals for more purchases come into the pipeline, or when these 36 aircraft need servicing and “upgrade” eventually, then the French will extract their pound of flesh. Make no mistake about it.

Another spin being given is the insinuation that as _quid pro quo,_ the French—who control the Airbus company (along with the Germans)—will aim at making the Airbus aircraft in India. This is baloney, plainly speaking.

I just flew in the Lufthansa’s Airbus 380. It will be in the 22nd century at the very earliest, if at all, that India can hope to possess a machine tools industry and trained designers and efficient technical hands to make such a sophisticated product like Airbus 380. The Germans will never allow us to get within a mile of their prestigious Airbus product, either. It is a flag carrier of German technology. And, in any case, we should be modest enough to know that making an aircraft is not like making _pakoras_.

Yet another spin being trotted out is the familiar spectre of threat perceptions—that India faces the threat of wars being launched by Pakistan and China—to justify the need to buy fighter aircraft in “flyaway” condition. A horrible thought is being thrust into our minds that the IAF is having to fight a war shortly.

But then, Defence Minister Parrikar himself now alerts us that the first “flyaway” Rafale aircraft will not even come into our possession for the next two years. ”Fly-away means not tomorrow,” he warns. As a highly qualified metallurgical engineer trained at the IIT, Bombay, he should know what our spin doctors seem to be unaware.

Put differently, we are being led to believe that the IAF is preparing to fight a war in 2018 or sometime beyond. But then, what if Pakistan or/and China decide to attack us before 2018—say, soon after Xi visits Pakistan in April and Modi visits China in May? Modi’s purchase will go waste?

Why is the Modi Government and those sections of our media who don’t do their homework properly making fools out of the Indian public? Look, nobody in the first instance forced Modi to conjure up from thin air this entire dream of ‘Make in India’. It was purely his brainwave to make Indians feel proud and ecstatic and lift their spirits up from their dreary existence. But, now he has taken the dream back and suo moto dumped it in the Seine River in the weekend without even taking them into confidence. That’s a terrible thing to do—selling a dream and then snatching it back.

At least, this government should do us a favour—Modi and his Ministers should never dare to utter those eleven syllables again, ‘_Make in India_’. If they do so again, it will be an insult to the Indian people’s common sense and intelligence. A non-performing government is bad enough. But to sell airy dreams to the people is the height of political cynicism.

_Ambassador M.K. Bhadrakumar was a career diplomat in the Indian Foreign Service. His assignments included the Soviet Union, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Germany, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Kuwait and Turkey._

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## PARIKRAMA

Air Platforms
*Indian Rafale deal to be finalised 'by end of May'*
*Rahul Bedi, New Delhi* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
20 April 2015






Talks to buy 36 Rafales off the shelf should be concluded by the end of May, Indian officials have said.
India and France aim to finalise the deal for 36 Dassault Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF) by the end of May, according to defence industry sources.

Indian prime minister Narendra Modi is believed to have insisted on this deadline with his French counterpart Francois Hollande in Paris, soon after announcing the fighters' procurement on 10 April.

Once inked, the IAF will be the first customer, after the French Air Force, to acquire Rafales. Egypt has also agreed to buy 24 Rafales.

Meanwhile, a delegation comprising senior French government officials and top Dassault executives is expected in New Delhi over the next few days to begin negotiating the fighter contract, which is estimated at around USD5-6 billion. French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian is likely to be part of this delegation, but no confirmation of his inclusion was possible.

Industry sources familiar with the ongoing talks between the two governments told _IHS Jane's_ that Dassault is reported to have agreed to more than double its annual Rafale building capacity from 11 to 24 aircraft. The company had slowed down Rafale production rate to around 11 platforms per year as no new orders were forthcoming.

The French government is also believed to have persuaded its air force to reduce its Rafale induction until the IAF contract is fulfilled.

Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar told the _Mail Today_ newspaper on 16 April that the accounting process for the Rafales would be completed within 2-3 months and deliveries would begin in 18 months. "So roughly it [the contract] will take three years," he said.

Negotiations between the MoD and Dassault over the acquisition of 126 Rafales under the Medium MultiRole Combat Fighter requirement have been deadlocked since January 2012 due to disagreements about the responsibility for the 108 platforms to be licence built in India.

Since Modi's announcement in Paris it is unclear whether India will directly import additional Rafales or licence-build them, or both.

Indian Rafale deal to be finalised 'by end of May' - IHS Jane's 360


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

*Editorial: India Still Needs Bigger Rafale Deal*
Defense News3:33 p.m. EDT April 20, 2015
 
The decision by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi to order 36 off-the-shelf Rafale jets was an overdue and welcome move to upgrade New Delhi's military capabilities.

It is worrisome, however, that he stated that talks were dead between the jet's maker, Dassault Aviation, and India's state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL).

Three years ago, India chose the Rafale as the preferred vendor in its global competition for a new fighter. The plan was to buy at least 126 of the jets, but negotiations dragged on over New Delhi's demand to build as much of the aircraft in India as possible.

Dassault has a long history of licensing production — including with India — but the sticking point was who would be liable for the quality of the planes built in India. Dassault, rightly, was unwilling to be held accountable if HAL fouled up manufacture of a jet as sophisticated as the Rafale.

On his visit to Paris, Modi acted with pragmatism, ordering 36 planes that would be built by Dassault in France and sent to India. It remains to be seen what will happen to the 126-strong order. It's the second order for the Rafale after Egypt became the first export customer for the twin-engine jet.

Indian officials have hinted that the bigger Rafale deal would be negotiated government to government, rather than between Dassault and HAL.

That's the right approach given the impasse between the French and Indian giants. The entire rationale of the program was to upgrade India's Air Force, replacing aging MiG-21 fighters, as well as boost the country's industrial capabilities with an infusion of technology and knowhow.

What India can't afford is to break up the fighter contract to gain favor with as many players as possible. Moscow has been aggressively courting New Delhi as a partner on an Indian variant of Sukhoi's Su-30, which is already in India's inventory.

The reason India turned to France was to improve its military and industrial capabilities. With the ball finally rolling, it's vital that the two nations conclude a wider deal that will be good for them both.

Editorial: India Still Needs Bigger Rafale Deal

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## Stephen Cohen

@PARIKRAMA 

What Modi has done is drawn a Line in the sand 

We have had enough talking ; discussing and debating ;
Now it is time to get down to action

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## PARIKRAMA

*TO PLUG THE GAP IN THE SKY MODI AND PARRIKAR PUT THE INTEREST OF THE IAF ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE*






_RAFALE - The fighter IAF was pushing for all along
by Nitin A Gokhale_
When Manohar Parrikar took over as India’s defence minister late last year, many defence pundits sniggered. What will a provincial politician from Goa know about the complex issues in the defence ministry, felt the high and mighty denizens of Lutyens’ Dilli. Those who have their fingers in the defence pie rubbed their hands in glee: here’s a tyro, an outsider to Delhi’s power corridors who would be easy to manipulate, they might have been thinking. Less than six months on, the smiling, not-so-articulate Parrikar has set the cat among the pigeons by breaking the nearly decade-long logjam in the procurement of crucial fighter jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and demonstrating the kind of quick decision-making many thought beyond him. The decision to buy 36 Rafale combat aircraft from the French company Dassault Aviation in ready-to-fly condition, announced by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in Paris, was a classic example of the political leadership taking a bold, unconventional decision to meet an urgent operational necessity of the armed forces. In this case, a government-to-government deal was found as the means to breaking the logjam that had been standing in the way of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Parrikar convinced Modi on the need to find an solution. He then kept to the sidelines loyally. 

In an interview to Doordarshan, Parrikar gave cent per cent marks to the prime minister for effecting the deal, thereby underplaying his own role in reaching this out-of-the-box decision. As he reviewed crucial projects and issues pending in the defence ministry after taking over, Parrikar quickly realised that the mega MMRCA (Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft) contract was going nowhere despite three years of negotiations between the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and Dassault Aviation, which had emerged as L-1 (the lowest bidder) in a competition that had begun in 2007. The issues were too complex. The cost of buying 126 fighter jets was too massive—anywhere between $ 16-18 billion—for any bureaucrat to take a final call under the current Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP). The IAF, on the other hand, was pressing hard for a quick decision: it was worried about the rapidly falling strength of its combat fleet.

Parrikar, an IIT-Powai product, grasped the nettle, took the issue to the prime minister and made him understand the urgency for breaking the deadlock. Hours before Modi took off for Paris, the duo arrived at a pro tem solution: buy Rafale directly under a government-to-government contract, even if it meant ignoring for once the ‘Make in India’ concept. The prime minister—despite being the author of ‘Make in India’—backed Parrikar to the hilt. And true to his promise, told the French of India’s intention.

It’s no surprise that sceptics have criticised the decision. The carping has ranged from “It’s too little, too late” to “It goes against the ‘Make in India’ concept”. There are whispers that the Ambani brothers might have made a backdoor entry. But Modi and Parrikar put the interest of the IAF above everything else. It must be borne in mind that procuring 36 Rafales is a stop-gap arrangement. It is meant to arrest, only if temporarily, the rapidly falling numbers of aircraft in the IAF’s combat fleet. The government will have to work out a detailed plan to replace over 200 fighter jets that will retire in the next four years. Parrikar has already hinted in one of his interviews how he plans to overcome the shortage, but all that will come in the near future. At the moment, he has demonstrated a rare decisiveness in the defence ministry. Under A.K. Antony of the UPA, India’s longest serving Raksha Mantri, the ministry had come to epitomise procrastination.

To Plug The Gap In The Sky | Nitin A. Gokhale

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*INDIA’S RAFALE DEAL: WHY THE OUTRIGHT PURCHASE WAS A BALANCING STEP*





_by Prashant Dikshit_

The Indian government’s decision to purchase 36 Rafale MMRCA aircraft from France outright, as against the original 18, with a direct government to government deal with France could be the best option. This is because the issues were no longer merely commercial in nature; there were strategic reasons to be considered.

The most apparent and crucial matter of the rapidly decreasing combat punch of the Indian Air Force (IAF) was not the only issue at hand. The decision to select the Rafale at the outset was already made with the conscious view that it was the best buy. It not only satisfied the operational framework of the IAF, but also ensured that with its acquisition India will put the eggs in the correct basket.

India has invested more than adequate material resources in the burgeoning strategic equation with the US and has acquired maritime and heavy-lift transport aircraft, among other weapon systems. Deeply emboldened by the mutual India-US wooing syndrome, the US administration is leaving no stone unturned to participate in the India’s aircraft carrier industry. On the MMRCA front however, there were disappointments in the US industry circles that India had found the F-16 aircraft somewhat outmoded and the F-18, too heavy and alien for its systemic construct.

But it had obviated Indian policy planners’ deeply embedded fears that the complex structure of the US regime – that consists its presidency, the senate and the congress – could place embargoes on technical and material support in the future for such a crucial combat ingredient; just because some law-wielding segment US did not see, eye to eye, with Indian policies elsewhere. There was precedence on this score in the past and the Indian establishment has institutional memory of having encountered such impediments; and the development of India’s Light Combat Aircraft is one of the many examples.

As for Russia, India is already acquiring over 250 Su-30 MKI air superiority fighters and most importantly, is developing Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft plus a Medium Transport Aircraft along with other weapon platforms such as the BrahMos in collaboration with Russian majors.

Although, the all-weather relationship with the erstwhile USSR and now Russia has stood the test of time and India availed of Russian support on not only the Arihant nuclear submarine but also substantially for the operation of nuclear power plants, uncertainties and irritants faced by India’s defence establishment for provision of spares for military hardware after the breakup of the USSR and again, before the eventual induction of the aircraft carrier, INS Vikramaditya, could not be ignored. Additionally, there is an emerging perception that with the rising clamour for enhanced price structures by Russian companies, the mutuality of equations is tilting towards greater commercial gains and the tenor of the relationship may have come to a saturation point. The Indian endeavour would rather be to sustain than to increase.

India had already procured adequate materials from UK during its post-independence relationship. The British-made Jaguar joined the IAF fleet with over 150 aircraft to fulfil the IAF’s requirement for Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft; over 120 of the British Aerospace built Advanced Jet Trainer, the Hawk, have been inducted in the IAF and the India Navy with an Indian government investment of nearly $ 2 billion. These purchases had set up a pipeline for infusion of spares periodically from aviation majors in UK. The British industry had nothing more to offer.

With France the story is different and the developments had to be placed on an even keel. First, the uncertainties in nurturing the contract with the French aviation major Dassault, the producer of the Rafale, had emerged because the manufacturer had declined to accept responsibilities for the 108 machines that were to be assembled by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. There is a strong view that some in the South Block had persuaded Dassault to accept this clause against the manufacturer’s judgment and these doubts could not be kept under wraps beyond a point.

Eventually, the whole deal was falling through due to procedural impositions of the treatment of “Request for proposals.” There was an emerging perception that at risk was the equation with France – whose support in operating their Mirage 2000 with the IAF was pivotal in countering the aggression during the Kargil war. France is going to be a supplier of nuclear materials to India, and with whom India is pursuing several space ventures through its Department of Space. However, the most crucial of all reasons why this is strategically important is due to France’s unstinted support for India’s membership in the UN Security Council.

India's Rafale Deal: Why The Outright Purchase Was A Balancing Step - Analysis - Eurasia Review

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*INTERVIEW: INDIA’S RAFALE DEAL*





_by Sanjay Kumar_

*The recent Rafale deal and its significance for India’s relations with France.*

While visiting France in early April, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the acquisition of 36 French Dassault Rafale jets. The announcement capped years of sometimes contentious negotiations, which had intensified since Modi came to power last year.

The Diplomat’s Sanjay Kumar spoke with senior journalist Ingrid Therwath, South Asia editor withCourrier International, a leading French magazine, about the significance of the deal for France and its relations with India, and what might lay ahead.

*How was the deal finally done? Were you aware of it?*

Initially, the figure that was announced at the joint press conference between Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Francois Hollande was a bit of a disappointment. For three years the deal was on the table and negotiations had been going on for 126 fighter jets. I learned through an informal source 24 hours before the joint press conference that it was to be 63 Rafale jets. When Modi announced the decision to buy 36 jets there was initial shock and disappointment among the French people.

However, more than disappointment there was a sense of relief that the deal has come out of the lurch which it has been in for the last three years. Both India and France were eager to break the logjam and move ahead. Negotiations were going on and on. There is relief in France now that something has come out of the three years of negotiations.

*What does it mean for France?*

The French government has a target of selling 40 Rafales this year. A couple of months ago Egypt bought 24 and now India is buying 36 off the shelf. This is rather good news for Dassault, which was facing a huge financial crisis. The deal comes as a lifeline for the French defense industry.

The fighter jet deal is a big political boost for the beleaguered French President François Hollande, who has been floundering ever since he assumed office in 2012. His popularity is really low. In recent local elections his socialist party performed very badly.

Now with the defense deal the government can showcase positive figures on the economic and defense fronts. Hollande’s international stature has gone up after the agreement.

*Does the deal herald the end of the negotiations and the final cap on the number of combat aircraft that India is going to buy from France? Or is the transfer of technology, India’s main demand over the years, a possibility?*

There are two ways to look at the deal. Either India gets out of the Rafale deal saying that we have bought the plane and that’s it or India now goes to phase two of the negotiations which I think is likely, though I am not privy to the confidential part of the deal. The reason being that Indian military needs to renew its equipment; its fleet is aging. The Rafale is a true multi-role combat aircraft. Though it is expensive, it is efficient. India has varied terrain and a location in a complex geopolitical neighborhood – the Rafale suits its requirements.

If there is a phase two of the negotiations it would be centered around the transfer of technology. France understands that for New Delhi, the Make in India concept is important.

*In the French media there has been discussion as to the recipient of any technology transfer. Can you shed some light on that?*

The question is who would build the new lot of Rafale jets if the transfer of technology takes place. Would it be state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) or some private player. That is the issue both in France and India. What I gather from my sources is that Indian industrialist Mukesh Ambani’s company is really keen to do a technology transfer in the defense sector. Ambani is a big contender. With India’s biggest industrial house a very close friend of Modi, Ambani coming into the picture is a real possibility. Dassault is also not keen on HAL. It seems that the government-owned company is not a reliable partner. It does not subscribe to strict quality standards.

*Are you aware of the criticism in a section of India’s media, terming the deal too expensive and done without a proper bidding process.*

The French general public are not really aware of the debate going on in India. I don’t think there was any irregularity in the deal. There were six contenders initially so it was a fair game. What is happening in India between HAL and Ambani, the French press is not bothered about that. Its an internal issue for India. But France is happy that the deal got unstuck and came to be signed .

*How do see Indo-French relations after Modi’s visit?*

I think the relationship has always been very good. France and India really like each other. For the French, India is a wonderful country, and the majority [of the French people] have a very positive image of the South Asian nation. France would like to do business with China but they have a very negative image of the communist regime. India has soft power. France has always been a consistent ally of New Delhi. If you had noticed, France raised concerns over the release of the 2008 Mumbai attack mastermind Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi recently. This deal deepens that bond.

*What other agreements were inked during Modi’s visit to France?*

There were number of other deals that were signed between France and India. They signed agreement on water, sanitation, waste management, transport and metros, roads and infrastructure. One important deal was on the European Nuclear Reactor, built by AREVA in Jaitapur in the western Indian state of Maharashtra. The negotiations with AREVA were very difficult because of local resistance to the nuclear plant. The deal is important for the French nuclear firm. Just as Dassault really needed the Rafale contract to boost its financial position, AREVA also needed [the Indian deal] for its survival. So the Indian PM’s visit has been oxygen for these companies.

Interview: India’s Rafale Deal | The Diplomat
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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> _*Q. Was the Indian Air Force on board when the government took the decision to buy 36 Rafale fighters under the government-to-government (G2G) route from France?*
> 
> A. I consulted the air force to the extent it was required. They have no role in decision-making as ultimately it's the Prime Minister's call. _



Now that's an importan piece, which shows how we ended up in this possible disaster! As expected, neither the DM wanted this (which is evident, since it's the opposite of what he tried since Dec), nor were the IAF involved, but it's a sole decision of the PM against everything the MoD, IAF and the Indian defence Industry worked for in the last few years. I thought the LUH scrapping of him was bad, but this is just insane!


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## PARIKRAMA

*RAFALE DEAL - TRUTHS BEYOND RHETORIC*






_by Premvir Das_

The decision to purchase 36 Rafale aircraft outright from France has understandably created a stir. It apparently flies in the face of the "multi vendor, open tender, transparent" approach ongoing for close to 14 years in which this aircraft was first found suitable, then qualified as L1 (lowest tender) and then there were prolonged contract negotiations. The plan to buy 18 planes outright and build the remaining 108 in Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) through transfer of technology has now collapsed; the latest decision will, inevitably, include an Option Clause for some more outright purchases as the ordered number is clearly not viable.

First, it is true that the negotiations dragged on for too long but not for any fault of HAL. The French manufacturer was refusing to adhere to the terms specified in the Request for Proposals (RFP) sent out to all vendors; it was also not prepared to guarantee performance of aircraft manufactured in India, once again a clear violation of the terms of the RFP. Second, this delay was already beginning to affect the force level of combat aircraft that the Air Force was slipping down to; as per its projections the reduced strength could have serious consequences on our fighting readiness and, thereby impact national security. Third, an idea was beginning to get mooted to jettison the Rafale deal and go in for additional Russian-origin SU 30MK1s, already being manufactured by HAL under licence and of which the Air Force had good numbers.

Let us look at some facts. First, the long-delayed LCA, planned replacement for the MiG-21, is now nearing operational status. Does anyone really believe that war or even limited hostilities with China or Pakistan are on the horizon in the immediate future? Provocations and assisted militancy, even insurgency could be a possibility - but outright war, requiring the urgent availability of versatile combat aircraft? So, the warnings put out that the country's security was in jeopardy were clearly hype. This notwithstanding, the falling strength of fighter aircraft is cause for concern and required corrective action.

But the serious issue is different. No military platform of any kind can be developed and built unless there is capability to design it; the ability to manufacture and procure different varieties of equipment often influences this first step but can only follow it. So, putting the drawings, hundreds of them, in place is the first essential prerequisite. If the Navy can happily turn out the most modern destroyers from its shipyards, the latest being Vishakhapatnam, launched last Monday, it is only because right from its earliest years, it has focused on developing design know-how and this has resulted in every ship being more combat worthy than its predecessor with increasing indigenous content both from the public and private sectors. Concurrently, it is necessary to give strong support to the building yards. The closest possible interface is needed between the buyer, the designer and the builder; and, if the four Navy shipyards today have more than 40 ships on order, it is because these three essential requirements are being met.

Interestingly, the Air Force had also embarked on this route early on, and aircraft like the HT-2, HPT-32 and HF-24 bear evidence to this urge. But thereafter the focus shifted to outright purchase with or without manufacture in India under licence - which generates skills in manufacturing techniques, but no benefits in acquiring design know-how.

While the Navy's design-and-build-in-India plans have moved strongly through focused attention those of the Air Force have not. It is true that we are still unable to produce much of the sophisticated equipment that modern fighter aircraft require but these can always be bought and integrated into the platform design. After all, even the latest warship being built at Mazagon Docks Ltd in Mumbai has weapons and sensors from different sources including our own, all interfaced into a complete system.

Taking the shelter of national security to force the "outright purchase route" has been the easy way out and over the years, political leaderships of all hues have succumbed to this threat.

The sad reality is that the apparently transparent multi-vendor route for military purchases is wholly unsuited to the Indian way of doing business, literally. Experience shows that where we go the single-vendor governmental route, things move faster and with fewer complications. So, opaque as it may seem, until design capabilities are greatly enhanced, this Hobson's choice appears to be the only route to take. All this may make for dismal reading. On the one hand, we want to manufacture modern military platforms in India; on the other, the essential capabilities required to do so either do not exist or are deficient.

Sadly, this is not something that can be set right overnight or just by shifting tack from public to private sector. The Army and the Air Force, which do not have in-house design structures, must involve themselves more closely with the know-how already created with DRDO and others, send more people abroad for training and, together, focus on building complex platforms. This process may take several years but there are no short cuts; it has taken the Navy five decades to get here. To think that private companies can start designing and building fighter aircraft when DRDO/HAL, with decades of experience cannot, is to live in a world of make-believe.

The Air Force must also involve itself more closely through greater control of HAL entities just as the Navy has been doing all along for its shipyards. This synergised Plan-Design-Order-Build approach is essential if the other two services are to get anywhere close to where the Navy has reached and, yes, it still has some miles to go.


Premvir Das: Rafale deal - truths beyond rhetoric | Business Standard Column


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*LESSONS FOR INDIA: HOW THE 'MOTHER OF ALL DEFENSE DEALS' CRASHED AND BURNED*






*…and what India needs to do to avoid flubs of the sort in the future.*

India’s decision to procure 36 Dassault Rafale combat jets is an attempt to stop short-term hemorrhaging, but is not a substitute for the urgent need to address both the erosion of the Indian Air Force’s (IAF’s) force strength or gaps in higher defense management that continue to plague the Indian armed forces.

On India’s decision to opt for a government-to-government deal during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France, Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar indicated that India’s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) project, which had taken 14 years from the projection of requirements to vendor selection, was effectively dead. The $10 billion MMRCA project for 126 combat aircraft was conceived by the IAF in 2001 with an aim to augment its force strength, which is at an all-time low of 29 squadron as a result of defense procurement inefficiencies, obsolescence and crashes.

It then took the Ministry of Defense six years after IAF conceived a requirement to then issue Requests for Proposal (RFPs) for the MiG-35, JAS-39, Eurofighter Typhoon, F-16, F/A-18 and Rafale. The terms of the initial RFP stipulated the purchase of 18 aircraft in “fly away” condition, while requiring the remaining 108 aircraft to be manufactured in India under a Transfer of Technology Agreement with the vendor, which would also be required to meet its offset obligations in India, per MoD’s Defense Procurement Procedure (DPP).

After vendor proposals underwent technical evaluation and field trials, the MoD announced in 2011 that it had narrowed down its selection to two vendors – Dassault (Rafale) and Eurofighter GmbH. In January 2012, India announced that it had selected Dassault as its preferred vendor and would enter into “final talks” before signing the deal. The process then ran into a stonewall.

First, allegations of irregularities in the selection process were made in the Rajya Sabha (India’s upper house of Parliament). Then-Defense Minister, AK Antony, whose desire to accentuate above all else his credentials as not being corrupt earned him the derisive moniker “Saint Antony,” ordered a probe that interrupted negotiations with Dassault for four months. Then, negotiations stalled over pricing differences and India’s insistence on guarantees over the 108 aircraft to be locally manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). These differences ultimately proved insurmountable.

The government’s decision to source 36 Rafale combat jets from Dassault now raises new questions on how it intends to address significant force strength depletion in the IAF for which the MMRCA was conceived. In the seven years alone that it has taken the Government of India to issue an RFP for the MMRCA and enter into negotiations with Dassault, the IAF has lost 36 MiG aircraft due to crashes (of which a majority have been MiG-21s), as well as 13 other aircraft (including 6 Sukhoi-30MKIs, 3 Jaguars and 2 Mirage-2000s), effectively reducing IAF’s force strength by over 4 squadron.

Meanwhile, India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project, awarded to HAL and conceived as a replacement for its large and antiquated inventory of MiG-21s has faced inordinate budget overruns and delays and has been insufficient in addressing inventory attrition. Self-reliance in defense production is in every country’s national interests, but routine platitudes favoring self-reliance without providing for adequate investments in research and development, incentivizing the growth and maturation of a robust technical and industrial manufacturing base, or liberalizing the defense industry, have created conditions for incredible inefficiencies and a perpetually anemic domestic defense sector incapable of meeting India’s defense needs. Successive Indian governments have prioritized the dogmatic pursuit of indigenization over the need to plug critical national security gaps.

The LCA experience is a case in point. In 1983, the Government of India, taking cognizance of its aging fleet of MiG-21s and a series of combat aircraft crashes (there were 482 MiG-related crashes resulting on 171 pilot deaths between 1971-2012 in India), commissioned a replacement project in called “Development of the Light Combat Aircraft.”

The project has taken 31 years to translate vision into some semblance of reality due to a myriad off actors: bureaucratic inefficiencies, limitations in technical expertise, lack of adequate infrastructure and testing facilities and unavailability of critical components due to the technology denial regimes of other countries. Opting to develop a domestically-built engine (Kaveri) for the LCA ended in disaster; after 24 years and investments of about $600 million, it was eventually determined to be unfit for the LCA in 2013 and replaced with General Electric’s F404 engine. Technical advances and India’s changing strategic environment have meant that LCA’s requirements have had to be redefined repeatedly, which have resulted in further delays.

The MMRCA and LCA experiences are merely symptomatic of the larger defense planning malaise that continues to plague India. After the 1999 Kargil War, the National Democratic Alliance-led government commissioned a study (resulting in the Kargil Review Committee report) that highlighted deficiencies in India’s security management apparatus. A Group of Ministers (GoM) Committee, chaired by then-Deputy Prime Minister LK Advani, was then constituted to study the need to reform India’s national security system. The committee in its report recommended a “comprehensive systemic overhaul of the country’s security and intelligence apparatus” and identified that:


The system governing defense acquisitions suffered from a lack of integrated planning, weaknesses in linkages between plans and budgets, cumbersome administrative, technical and financial evaluation procedures, and an absence of a dedicated, professionally equipped procurement structure within the MoD.
No congruence existed between India’s national security objectives, its defense objectives, defense policy and directives for the Defense Minister.
The defense planning process was greatly handicapped by the absence of a national security doctrine and commitment of funds beyond the financial year. It also suffered from a lack of inter-service prioritization and flexibility.
There was dysfunction between technology planning and development and coordination between R&D (e.g., DRDO), production agencies (e.g., HAL) and users (e.g. IAF).
There was also no synergy between academic research and Government’s requirements. Academic research is carried out more or less in a policy vacuum.
It is unfortunate that successive governments in India haven’t gone about addressing these issues with any level of assiduity 14 years after the committee issued its findings and recommendations. Subsequent studies on higher defense management such as the Naresh Chandra Committee report continue to gather dust and remain classified. Under the circumstances, the ad-hocism and inefficiencies that feature prominently in the MMRCA deal and the LCA project are unsurprising. The proposed purchase of 36 Rafale combat aircraft from France, if the deal does indeed go through, may ease momentary suffering but treats, at best, one part of one symptom and not the root cause itself.

Lessons for India: How the ‘Mother of All Defense Deals’ Crashed and Burned | The Diplomat


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## airmarshal

Think about it. Its a mind boggling planning that only India could pull off. 

Looking for a fighter jet under MMRCA banner since 2007. Selected a jet in 2012. Negotiated for it for 3 years to build them in their country. Then bought them fully built from supplier. The first deliveries expected in 2018. A full 11 years wasted in which they could have got at least 70 jets. 

As soon as Modi left France, French would have laughed their but*s off! No surprises there for such an expression.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## rockstarIN

airmarshal said:


> Think about it. Its a mind boggling planning that only India could pull off.
> 
> Looking for a fighter jet under MMRCA banner since 2007. Selected a jet in 2012. Negotiated for it for 3 years to build them in their country. Then bought them fully built from supplier. The first deliveries expected in 2018. A full 11 years wasted in which they could have got at least 70 jets.
> 
> As soon as Modi left France, French would have laughed their but*s off! No surprises there for such an expression.



Their faces will become pale if they knew about the number stands at 36!


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> Their faces will become pale if they knew about the number stands at 36!



Even 36 is a success for France and to an extend for Dassault, because the French government can save a lot of money by selling Rafales in times of tied defence budgets and at the same time can safe jobs in the industry around Dassault and the Rafale. And even for Dassault, getting a 2nd export alone would be a PR win, but with the "intend" to buy 36, we gave them basically the assurance to buy at least some more, even if not 126. 
The only loser with this decision is India, because the PM gave away the high position in the negotiations with Dassault / MMRCA vendors, can't provide the IAF with the needed number of fighters and can't get the industry with anything useful anymore. 
As I said before, or as the former Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major said in the interview above too, getting 36 in a fast procurement is only good if it's part of the larger MMRCA deal. But if that's all, or the major part of what the PM now wants to buy, it's "a ridiculous step" and we have to accept that people laugh about us.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Even 36 is a success for France and to an extend for Dassault, because the French government can save a lot of money by selling Rafales in times of tied defence budgets and at the same time can safe jobs in the industry around Dassault and the Rafale. And even for Dassault, getting a 2nd export alone would be a PR win, but with the "intend" to buy 36, we gave them basically the assurance to buy at least some more, even if not 126.
> The only loser with this decision is India, because the PM gave away the high position in the negotiations with Dassault / MMRCA vendors, can't provide the IAF with the needed number of fighters and can't get the industry with anything useful anymore.
> As I said before, or as the former Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major said in the interview above too, getting 36 in a fast procurement is only good if it's part of the larger MMRCA deal. But if that's all, or the major part of what the PM now wants to buy, it's "a ridiculous step" and we have to accept that people laugh about us.



But if(there are high chance for follow up orders) just 36 fighters will save their jobs? No! the delivery will be finished in 2-3 years and that it. As the details of the the 36 jet deal yet to come out. It is, in a way, a bad PR to them as an emerging India can't buy them in high numbers, how come the others buy?

We will have to wait and see about it, I'm sure there are more details to come out or we will see more M2Ks in IAF as a part of the deal.


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## PARIKRAMA

*Defence Indigenisation Riddle Must be Solved*
By Manmohan Bahadur

The Rafale saga has thrown up new twists in its meandering and tortuous journey since January 2012 when it was selected as the successful bidder for the IAF’s MMRCA “mother of all deals”. The announcement of the prime minister in Paris that India would procure 36 Rafales via a government-to-government route has been the latest turn and has thrown open the question of the relevance of the “Make in India” drive. It is good that the government has shown political guts to break the logjam and give the IAF “minimum oxygen”, as defence minister Manohar Parrikar put it; however, it raises a few niggles regarding the path that would be taken to follow up on the defence indigenisation drive, of which “Make in India” is just a subset.

“We want peace from a position of strength and not from one of weakness,” the defence minister had said at a seminar in Delhi last month. The seminar, meant to throw up ideas for increasing India’s embarrassingly minuscule defence exports, ended up no different from the multitude of previous such events. There was a litany of oft-heard grievances and how nothing has changed; illustrative of the anguish in the private industry was the statement of a CEO that “everything is still licensed, except the licence.” And, as usual, the government was absent, barring two officials, who too left before the Q&A section. To be fair, the defence minister announced that a revised Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) would be promulgated soon. Unfortunately, the DPP is only part of the problem as the malaise affecting manufacturing of true indigenous defence products lies elsewhere.

*“The only thing harder than getting a new idea into the military mind, is to get an old one out*,” military historian Liddell Hart had said. *In the Indian context, it extends to the babudom, which controls military manufacturing policy. Nobody wants to let go of the power that comes with archaic rules that stifle local private industry and land up benefitting foreign manufacturers. If PM Modi’s “Make in India” is to succeed, defence manufacturing should be the prime target for the government, as that is where the low-hanging fruit lies.*

*A misperception that afflicts us all is the fallacy that only big-ticket items, the likes of MMRCA and T-90 tanks, constitute defence manufacturing. An analysis will show that there are enough low-value (relatively) but high-volume items that can kick-start the “Make in India” effort; in fact, there may be many for which we have paid for the Transfer of Technology (ToT) but have forgotten about them, a la the 155mm Bofors artillery gun saga*! Let realism govern our thinking, for, if the secretary, department of industrial policy and promotion says (as he did at the seminar) that of their total production HAL exports only 2 per cent, Bharat Electronics 3.5 per cent and ordnance factories only 0.19 per cent, while we import 70 per cent of our armament requirement, shouldn’t we be thinking of first becoming a defence manufacturer?

The answer to the problem lies in the comment of the second government official present at the seminar who rued that rules do not permit export licences! But who makes rules, if not the government? If any progress is to be made, just two basic administrative decisions are necessary—all else will follow.* Firstly, ownership of defence indigenisation should be fixed, and secondly, the Defence Offsets Management Wing (DOMW) should be drastically reformed.*

*“Ownership” of the indigenisation process rests in a body that makes indigenisation policy and analyses whether it is being implemented. This entity, thus, becomes accountable; that’s where the ownership of the process should lie. Presently, is it the department of defence production or DG (acquisition) or is it the MoD as a whole? Can these behemoths be penalised when the rapid turnover of office-bearers is governed by promotion policies of sequential appointments—“aaya ram, gaya ram” to use a political jargon? The fact that severe censure from innumerable Parliamentary Committees on Defence has not derailed any bureaucrat’s career is proof that no one has ownership. Thus, one marks one’s year or two in the MoD, pushes files and moves on—indigenisation stays where it is, and so does the nation.*

What happens elsewhere? In the US, there is a Defence Acquisition University that was born from the ills of what their defence historian William Gregory described as the acquisition system being one that had been “managed and over-reformed into impotence with volumes of oversight regulations”. He observed that their Congress had been pursuing an impossible dream by trying to legislate perfection when “no regulation could create good management or top-notch people”. The result was the setting up of a permanent Defence Acquisition Corps that ensures continuity “from cradle to grave” of a project. In UK, their MoD has an integral civil services permanent cadre that follows through to ensure continuity. So, what should India do? As a start, create an empowered body and post quasi-decision takers (joint secretary-level officers) of ALL ministries concerned (taxation, excise, industrial production et al) under one roof and under one boss. Call him/her DG Defence Indigenisation or whatever, but ownership has to rest there—it would be his/her success or failure. They should have a fixed tenure of four-five years (not less) and it should be clear to them that indigenisation results would determine further career progression. As a parallel, the government should fast-track defence acquisition training at the soon-to-be set-up National Defence University to produce acquisition professionals.

*It will be at least a decade, despite all the honest efforts of this government, before any semblance of a defence manufacturing base is visible on ground. Till then, India will continue to import heavily and herein comes the second recommendation*. It is vital that the DOMW squeezes technology worth every cent of the USD 100 billion-130 billion of defence offsets that are expected to flow, and for which we have paid dearly. But, one has to be an eternal optimist to believe that just the 10 personnel (also with limited tenures), who presently constitute DOMW, can deliver! If we do not radically reform DOMW now and make it, first potent and then accountable, the seminars will continue to be what they are now—just good “time pass, with a sumptuous meal thrown in”.

Defence Indigenisation Riddle Must be Solved -The New Indian Express

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*



*

*Eye on the Future*
The Rafale deal will boost Indian manufacturing in the long run.
Goutam Das Edition:May 10, 2015







The Indian Air Force's (IAF) quest for a modern fighter jet involved a long-drawn acquisition process lasting more than a decade and logjam in negotiations. However, the end, when it came, was unexpected, and swift.

When Prime Minister Narendra Modi said in Paris on April 10 that India will buy 36 Rafale jets from Dassault Aviation in the "ready-to-fly" mode, many accused the government of sacrificing its 'Make in India' dream at the altar of convenience.

While it's true that the original deal for Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), which seemed to be headed nowhere, involved purchase of 18 fighters in a "fly-away condition" and making of the rest by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL), critics of the latest deal may be overreacting.

*"The delay had created ill will. Giving Dassault double the original order of 18 is a good way to break the stalemate," says Amber Dubey, Partner and Head of Aerospace and Defence, KPMG India.*

India, say many experts, has a lot to gain from the deal in view of the IAF's depleting strength and promise of domestic manufacturing in the form of offsets, joint ventures and contracts for purchase of components.

When inducted into the IAF in two years, Rafale will be India's most advanced fighter. "The deal addresses the IAF's immediate requirements," says Air Marshal M.Matheswaran, who retired in March last year as Deputy Chief of Integrated Defence Staff. The IAF's fighter strength now stands at 34 against a sanctioned 42 squadrons. "The government will now get time to address Make in India issues," he says.

*Though the details are not known yet, either this deal or follow-on deals should have a 'Make in India' component. Analysts say this is a "sweetener" deal with a lot of give and take opportunities in the future. "There could be transfer of technology, more collaboration and use of India as a global supply base for Dassault products. Dassault can also set up a joint venture here. That would be real 'Make in India'," says Dubey of KPMG.*

*Rahul Gangal, Partner, Roland Berger Strategy Consultants, says the deal will create offset opportunities for Indian companies. The offset policy was introduced as part of the Defence Procurement Procedure 2005.*

Most defence deals signed by India with foreign companies have an offset clause under which the foreign supplier has to procure a big chunk of inputs - 30 per cent to 50 per cent depending on the deal - from local suppliers. Till date, 24 offset contracts amounting to $4.87 billion have been concluded.

*Some analysts project an offset opportunity of $3.2 billion for Indian manufacturers if the government goes ahead with a follow-on order for another 36 jets - which is 72 Rafale jets in all. According to some industry watchers, there is a possibility this could happen.*







*Air Marshal Matheswaran says the cost of each jet was "guesstimated" at $70-80 million when the request-for-proposal was being prepared. Analysts now peg it at $90 million*.

This implies payment of $3.2 billion for 36 jetsand $6.4 billion for 72. The best-case scenario in offsets opportunity is $3.2 billion, where nearly 50 per cent is sourced from Indian vendors. Some of India's big manufacturing houses could be in business. Dassault had already identified its sourcing partners when the previous Rafale negotiations were on.

*"It will be a great opportunity for 'Make in India'," says Gangal. "You will get global aerospace and defence supply chains to set up supply bases and capability in India. While this one is a 'fly-away' deal, for Dassault, India is now a primary entity in the portfolio. It will develop the local industrial base in the hope of negotiating the next big deal," he says.*


*The best-case scenario in offsets opportunity is $3.2 billion, assuming 50 per cent is sourced from Indian vendors*

India's quest for a modern fighter has a long history. The request for information for the aircraft came in 2001, tenders for a competitive bid were issued in 2007. In 2012, Rafale edged out Eurofighter Typhoon jets after emerging as the lowest bidder. But the negotiations made little headway after that. It is believed that the cost of making these fighters changed drastically after 2007. Also, India pushed Dassault to take complete ownership of the 108 fighters HAL was to make. Dassault, as was expected, resisted.

Realising that the country could not wait forever for modernising its air force, India directly negotiated with the French government and signed the deal, prompting critics to claim "an unexpected knockout victory" for Dassault as it will not have to transfer technology now. Some called the decision arbitrary and questioned the French jet's performance.

Some even questioned the "handing out of billions to a French company that is struggling to survive." In 2014, the company's sales fell 20 per cent to â‚¬3.68 billion while profits fell 18 per cent to â‚¬398 million. On April 9, the day before Modi announced the deal, its stock closed at â‚¬1,142 on the Euronext. On April 15, it was at â‚¬1,224. Investors are perhaps viewing the deal as a lifeline for Dassault.

While India has "given", all eyes are now on the "take" part of the equation. The French have been supplying military hardware to India for quite some time now. Hyder Ali, the Sultan of Mysore (1721-1782), received French equipment to fight the British. Perhaps the French will now look at India differently, beyond its large market.

Rafale jet deal to boost Indian manufacturing in long run - Business Today

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





*French Def Min Visit to Clear Air on Rafale*
By Pradip R Sagar

Published: 23rd April 2015 05:59 AM
Last Updated: 23rd April 2015 05:59 AM

NEW DELHI: Nearly a fortnight after the government’s decision to buy 36 ready-to-fly Rafale fighter jets, a top-level French delegation headed by Paris’ Defence Minister will be coming down here shortly to discuss the modalities of the procurement.

*According to a top official, the French government has approached the South Block, which houses the Ministry of Defence (MoD), seeking an early appointment for holding delegation-level talks to take the deal forward.*

Prime Minister Narendra Modi, during his Paris visit on April 10,had made an announcement saying, “In view of the critical operational necessity for Multirole Combat Aircraft for the IAF, Government of India would like to acquire 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible from the Government of France.”

And the following day Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had clarified that the procurement of these 36 fighter jets will be through Government-to-Government route with the two sides holding detailed negotiations on the project. “As the decision has been taken at the highest level, the two sides will have to sit together to discuss the further course of action. From the price to the fighters’ maintenance and offset, all terms and conditions need to be discussed at length. French government has expressed its intentions to start the negations quickly for timely delivery of aircraft,” said a top official of the South Block.

French Def Min Visit to Clear Air on Rafale -The New Indian Express


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> But if(there are high chance for follow up orders) just 36 fighters will save their jobs? No!



Yes, because the spares, weapons and subsystems that comes along with it. It's likely now, that we will order AASM kits now, since they are already inducted and available. That extends the production line at Sagem, which otherwise would had been closed next year, since the French requirements are already covered. That's why exports of Rafale are far more important for France as a whole, rather than for Dassault. Similarly, if we want IRST, the production needs to start again, but without the ToT/offset package of the MMRCA deal, it's unlikely that Thales will divert the production to India and will start it in France again, on our costs, but for the benefit of French jobs!



rockstarIN said:


> We will have to wait and see about it, I'm sure there are more details to come out or we will see more M2Ks in IAF as a part of the deal.



More M2K's doesn't make it better, but worse! You can't fight China with 4th gen 2nd hand Mirage fighters, just as you can't do it with just 2 to 3 squads of Rafales. Our requirement is 7 x Rafale squads and neither M2Ks nor LCAs can't make up the capability gap. In that case, having no Rafales at all and stick to more MKIs and Pak Fa's would be the better option to fill the numbers and the capabilities.


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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> This implies payment of $3.2 billion for 36 jetsand $6.4 billion for 72. The best-case scenario in offsets opportunity is $3.2 billion, where nearly 50 per cent is sourced from Indian vendors. Some of India's big manufacturing houses could be in business. Dassault had already identified its sourcing partners when the previous Rafale negotiations were on.
> 
> "It will be a great opportunity for 'Make in India'," says Gangal. "You will get global aerospace and defence supply chains to set up supply bases and capability in India. While this one is a 'fly-away' deal, for Dassault, India is now a primary entity in the portfolio. It will develop the local industrial base in the hope of negotiating the next big deal," he says.



And that's shows exactly how the "make in India" slogan will be used to fake this disaster, since it's ist just a PR term that covers anything produced in India, be it basic stuff like airframe parts under offsets, or critical parts from AESA radar, engine or EW under the MMRCA tender, but the difference is huge.
Also offsets under the DPP are up to 30%, only because the MMRCA tender was so big and had such high demands, we could ask for 50%, which hardly will be possible when there is no licence production to divert things to. The best comparision are the C17 or P8I deals, which also were government to government deals for $4.1 / $2.1 billion dollars. Both with 30% offsets diverted to Indian industry (before the Make in India slogan was invented btw, which once again shows that it's the same thing with a new name) in form of basic production of airframe parts or integration of Indian comunication systems and avionics, rather than US / NATO once, that we can't use anyway.


Rafale in offset deal:

- 30% or possibly around $3 billion investments into Indian industry, with limited ToT
- production and implementation of basic parts (airframe, HMS or maybe IRST if we fund the production line via Samtel)
- final assembly of kits produced in France possibly at Reliance
- low ammount of parts produced in India
- IAF fully dependent on Dassault and France on integration of weapon systems or future upgrades


Rafale deal according to the MMRCA

- 50% or possibly $8 to $9 billion investments into Indian industry, with ToT of critical techs and systems
- production and implementation of basic parts as part of the offset deal (airframe, HMS via Samtel and maybe IRST if we fund the production line, MFDs and FSO via Samtel, AESA radar and EW parts via BEL, engine parts via HAL)
- licence production under ToT in India
- high ammount of parts produced in India, similar or even higher to the level of the MKI deal
- IAF able to select and implement own upgrades, developed in India (just as we see it in the MKI upgrade deal), at less costs and more operational freedom

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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Yes, because the spares, weapons and subsystems that comes along with it. It's likely now, that we will order AASM kits now, since they are already inducted and available. That extends the production line at Sagem, which otherwise would had been closed next year, since the French requirements are already covered. That's why exports of Rafale are far more important for France as a whole, rather than for Dassault. Similarly, if we want IRST, the production needs to start again, but without the ToT/offset package of the MMRCA deal, it's unlikely that Thales will divert the production to India and will start it in France again, on our costs, but for the benefit of French jobs!
> 
> 
> 
> More M2K's doesn't make it better, but worse! You can't fight China with 4th gen 2nd hand Mirage fighters, just as you can't do it with just 2 to 3 squads of Rafales. Our requirement is 7 x Rafale squads and neither M2Ks nor LCAs can't make up the capability gap. In that case, having no Rafales at all and stick to more MKIs and Pak Fa's would be the better option to fill the numbers and the capabilities.


I believe the LCA mk2 s in large numbers will be at par or higher than M2K. In large numbers , they can compliment well and take on large chunk of j 10. RAFALE can be kept for special SEAD missions againt posSible s 300 threat. So in a way 36 is enough.


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> I believe the LCA mk2 s in large numbers will be at par or higher than M2K. In large numbers , they can compliment well and take on large chunk of j 10. RAFALE can be kept for special SEAD missions againt posSible s 300 threat. So in a way 36 is enough.



That's a dream mate! We all dream about LCA being ready and capable, but the reality is, that the current IOC 2 standard is below the needed operational capabilities and FOC delayed for nearly a year.
We all dream about an MK2 that is comparable to Gripen NG, but so far we only have paper figures of specs and design changes.
We all dream about the MK2 as a 4.5th gen fighter that is able to take on a J10B, but J10B is reality today while the first MK2 squadron comes only around 2020 and that only if a wonder happens and DRDO / ADA / HAL can keep their promised time lines.
While by 2025, when the currently ordered 4 MK2 squads might be delivered, J10B is not the main threat anymore, which makes the large numbers of MK2 unrealistic.

So lets't not confuse dreams that we have about LCA with what the MMRCA should give India. The one is just a low end fighter for the western or southern borders, while we need MMRCAs alongside MKIs and stealth fighters in the west and the sooner the better. That's why only 126 x MMRCAs, or in the worst case scenario MKIs + Pak Fa's can be a solution to add numbers and capabilities fast.


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## sancho

> *Cameron offers to ‘Make in India’ Eurofighter Typhoon*
> 
> Prime Minister David Cameron has said that Britain’s offer of Eurofighter Typhoon "is still on the table" and that the country is ready to help Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) develop world-class fighter jets in India as part of the 'Make in India' initiative.
> 
> Exuding optimism of returning to 10 Downing Street after the May 7 elections, Cameron said in an interview that he was looking forward to meeting Prime Minister Narendra Modi to "discuss a heavy agenda", and saw India playing a "very big role" in Britain economy.
> 
> “The British offer of Eurofighter Typhoon to India is still on the table. It will come along with technological and engineering assistance for India to develop its own world class fighter aircraft. It will be a better deal than Rafale,” he told ‘Asian Lite’, a Manchester-based publication.
> 
> During a visit to France earlier this month, Modi, citing "critical operational necessity", announced that India would buy 36 Rafale jets in a "fly-away condition". However, the French jets are unlikely to be produced in India, as earlier envisaged.
> 
> The Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale were short-listed by the Indian Air Force in 2011 as part of its Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft competition, but Rafale was announced as the preferred bidder in 2011.
> 
> However, protracted negotiations since then between IAF and Rafale remained inconclusive, and the issue was overtaken by Modi’s announcement to buy the 36 Rafale jets. Britain is part of the European consortium producing the Eurofighter Typhoon...



Cameron offers to ‘Make in India’ Eurofighter Typhoon


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## Bhuvan93

Eurofighter alongside Rafale alongside PAK FA alongside Su-30MKI alongside Mirage-2000 alongside Tejas MK1/MK2 alongside AMCA alongside MiG-29s in the 2020s?

Lol...


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## PARIKRAMA




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## sancho

> *France, Qatar seal 6.3 billion euro Rafale fighter jet deal*
> 
> 
> Qatar has agreed to buy 24 Dassault Aviation-built Rafale fighter jets in a deal worth 6.3 billion euros ($7.05 billion), the French government said on Thursday, as the Gulf Arab state looks to boost its military firepower amid regional instability.
> 
> Tensions in the Middle East with conflicts in Yemen, Syria and Libya, as well as fears of Iran's growing influence in the area, have fuelled a desire across Sunni Gulf Arab states to modernise their military hardware.
> 
> The contract, the third this year for Dassault after deals to sell fighter jets to Egypt and India, also includes MBDA missiles, and the training of 36 Qatari pilots and 100 technicians by the French army, a French Defence Ministry official said.
> 
> "The president spoke to Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad al-Thani, the Emir of Qatar, who confirmed *his desire to buy 24 Rafale combat planes*," President Francois Hollande's office said in a statement.
> 
> Hollande will travel to Doha on May 4 to sign the contract before heading to Saudi Arabia as an honorary guest at a summit of Gulf Arab leaders.
> 
> The Rafale sales have lifted French arms exports this year to about 15 billion euros and have been a welcome boost for Dassault, which had been under increasing pressure to sell the plane overseas after years of failures.
> 
> Dassault shares were up 2.1 per cent at 0912 GMT.
> 
> The French government said last year that it would slow the pace at which it takes delivery of Rafale jets to just 26 over the next five years instead of 11 every year.
> 
> Dassault is also in talks aimed at supplying 16 of the multi-role combat jets to Malaysia and has resumed discussions over potential fighter sales to another Gulf Arab state, the United Arab Emirates, the official said.



m.economictimes.com/news/defence/france-qatar-seal-6-3-billion-euro-rafale-fighter-jet-deal/articleshow/47106992.cms

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## uparyupari

7.05 Billion $ for 24 Rafale 

That is almost* 294 Million $ PER Rafale*


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## sancho

Hope we will get more infos on the delivery time line on monday, when the contract is supposed to be signed, because that will show us how much Rafales and when we can expect for India. I assume that Qatar will go for F3R's though with the same config as the French forces, which then could mean an increased production and delivery rate for 2018 and beyond.

@halloweene 

Any details on this, you have been pretty quiet since the PM visited France. What's the French view on the MMRCA now?


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## Agent_47

*UAE Restarts Rafale Talks With France*
PARIS — The United Arab Emirates has restarted talks on ordering the Dassault Rafale, with a planned major upgrade of the fighter jet in contrast to the off-the-shelf deals for Egypt and India, said an Arabian Gulf official source familiar with the issue.

"Yes, there are renewed discussions," the gulf source said April 14. The talks could take some time "to reach an understanding" that meets the needs of the UAE Air Force, the source said.

*France has been in talks for more than five years on a sale of 60 Rafales, with the UAE requiring a more capable fighter with an extensive weapons suite. The Rafale would replace the fleet of Mirage 2000-9s.*

The fresh talks are looking at requirements rather than reviving discussions for 60 Rafales and it is too early to say how many aircraft would be purchased for how much, .

The UAE is seen a potential buyer after Egypt sealed a deal for 24 Rafales and India announced a plan to order 36 off the assembly line in France.

"There are discussions going on with the Emirates, they are going in the right direction," French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius told journalists at the the Anglo-American Press Association on April 16.

France is pursuing an "economics diplomacy," he said. "The president, prime minister, defense minister and myself — we work very closely together." That approach was applied generally and to the Rafale specifically, he said.

Fabius said he met UAE Crown Prince Sheikh Mohammed Bin Zayed al-Nahyan during a trip to Saudi Arabia on the weekend of April 11-12, confirming a report by daily Le Monde. "*There is a French saying — all things come in threes,"* the French minister said, referring to the Rafale deals with Egypt and India, the report said.

Dassault Aviation Chairman Eric Trappier said on March 11 that the French company was back in talks with the UAE, but that these were not contract negotiations.

The UAE is in talks with the US to order 30 Block 61 Lockheed Martin F-16s, which would add to the 80-strong fleet of Block 60 fighters, Reuters has reported.

Executives at the International Defence Exhibition in Abu Dhabi in February noted the UAE crown prince spent an hour behind closed doors at the Dassault stand on the opening day. The *UAE had helped fund Egypt's purchase of the Rafale,* but it was also likely that they spoke about the fighters for the gulf state's own Air Force, the executives said.

*The UAE Air Force has focused on an upgrade of the systems and engine of the Rafale, including active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, frontal sector optronic and an electronic warfare suite, systems supplied by Thales, and a 9-ton-thrust M88 engine, uprated from the 7.5-ton engine that powers the French Air Force and Navy fighters.*

French industry has said the 2011 Libya air campaign showed there was no need for a higher engine thrust on the Rafale.

The potential UAE version, dubbed M88-9, could deliver nine tons of thrust by "increasing the entering airflow from 65 kg/s to 72 kg/s and the compression rate from 24.5 to 27," according to News, the Rafale blog, which in 2011 ran a story from weekly magazine Air & Cosmos.

*That would require the air intake to be enlarged, a costly "structural modification" that had been a stumbling block in talks with the UAE, the 2011 report said.*

On Dec. 30, France launched a program worth some €1 billion (US $1.06 billion) to upgrade the Rafale F3 to the F3R standard by 2018. The new version will fire the MBDA Meteor long-range air-to-air missile, a laser version of the Sagem Armement Air Sol Modulaire powered smart bomb, and carry a Thales new-generation laser targeting pod, dubbed Talios, to succeed the present Damocles. The AESA RBE2 radar and Spectra electronic warfare system will also be improved.

Egypt will receive the F3R version, Trappier said.

Thales co-developed the Damocles pod under the name Shehab for the UAE Air Force's Mirage 2000-9.

*The UAE had been putting pressure on France to fund a co-development of an upgraded targeting pod and considered buying the Lockheed Martin Sniper as an alternative,* business daily Les Echos reported in November 2011.

Abu Dhabi had agreed with then-French President Nicolas Sarkozy to consider the Rafale as a replacement to the fleet of Mirage 2000-9s bought in 1998.

Fabius said there are also discussions on the Rafale with Qatar.

"But sometimes these discussions are long, sometimes they speed up — which we saw in Egypt — sometimes they are brief," Fabius said.

"It depends on the overall situation, depends on the country's needs – the aircraft is the same but sometimes they ask for different specifications. There are discussions going on with Qatar and other countries," he said.

*Qatar is now seen as slipping down on the list of prospective Rafale buyers after having been near the top, a parliamentary official said. Negotiations for an order of 24 fighters and an option for a further 12 was reported in February to be in the final stage.*

Trappier declined to comment when asked about Qatar at the company's annual results press conference on March 11.

The arms sales can be seen as reflecting a sharp and deadly shift in the region, with the fighting in Yemen being a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia, the parliamentary official said.

Iraq, Syria and Libya are nations in armed turmoil. Russia has canceled an embargo and will deliver the S-300, a sophisticated surface-to-air missile, to Iran. The US has warned that delivering the weapon may hurt the Western agreement to lift sanctions against Tehran.

*In Europe last year, Dassault, Snecma and Thales opened the Rafale team's office in Brussels to bid in the Belgian tender for a replacement of the F-16*, the 7 sur 7 news website reported.

The Rafale team will pitch the F3R model against the Lockheed Martin F-35, Boeing F/A-18 E/F, Eurofighter Typhoon, and Saab JAS-39 Gripen in the Belgian Defense - Air Combat Capability Successor Program, the report said.

UAE Restarts Rafale Talks With France

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## Hindustani78

Rafale deal: France defence minister on India visit next week | Zee News
Last Updated: Saturday, May 2, 2015 - 23:04


Panaji: Days after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced purchase of 36 Rafale jets from France in fly-away condition, its Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will be visiting India next week to "set up" negotiations for the crucial deal.

"*On Monday, he (Drian) will be in Qatar to sign another Rafale deal. He will be in India during next week. It will not be for signing the contract because the agreement is just two weeks old, but he will set up negotiations with India," French Ambassador to India, Francois Richier, told reporters here today.*

He was in Goa to participate in the Indo-French Naval exercise which culminated today.

*The diplomat said purchase of the aircraft by India, Qatar and Egypt * is a testimony to the importance of fighter planes in these countries which are facing a real security challenge.

*"It is also a recognition that Rafale is the pertinent plane for a country which has a real security challenge. And the fact that it was recently purchased by Egypt or Qatar, which are countries in areas which present strategic challenges," he said.*

Richier, however, did not assign any deadline for winding up the deal.

"It is always better to be prudent when one speaks about setting timelines," he said.

"Thanks to the negotiations,?we have worked out a lot of details on the specifics of technology. All this is there. All that work is not lost. It will serve as a basis for negotiation of this deal," the ambassador said.

During his visit to France last month, Modi had signed an agreement to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets for over USD 6 billion.

Richier said France's relations with India dates back to 1953 when "Hurricanes" aircraft were supplied to Indian Air Force.

The plane which was later used by the military to liberate Goa from Portuguese colonial rule. 

PTI

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## Storm Force

Lets get thus done and these planes delivered asap.

With the follow up order for 36 more rafales in 2019 delivery by 2022


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## Matrixx

Rafale deal: France's Dassault Aviation likely to enter into JV with Indian firm - The Economic Times
NEW DELHI: The multi-billion deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets could see French defence major Dassault Aviation entering into a joint venture with state-run HAL or any private player to set up a base here for augmenting its existing production line.

Defence sources said such a step, if taken will not only allow the French firm to ramp up its production rate but will help it to meet offset obligations in India, likely to be 30-50 per cent of the sales value.

Considered as the first major push under 'Make in India' category in defence sector, the approach will also mean that the French company would stand a better chance in case the Indian government decides to go for more Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft later than the initial 36 agreed.

It will allow Dassault Aviation to set up manufacturing facilities in India to augment its existing production line in Merignac in France under a joint venture with HAL or a private player of its choice. From the operation and sustainment perspective also, creating of these facilities will help the IAF, the sources said.

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## sancho

Matrixx said:


> Rafale deal: France's Dassault Aviation likely to enter into JV with Indian firm - The Economic Times



Please quote at least parts of the article and not only post the link, thx!


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## Matrixx

sancho said:


> Please quote at least parts of the article and not only post the link, thx!


text added

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## Hulk

migflug said:


> With the price negotiations meandering into the fourth year, an impatient Narendra Modi intervened, circumventing the elaborate Request for Proposal (RFP) system of competitive bidding under which the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal was initiated. The prime minister decided to purchase the Rafales “off the shelf” without transfer of technology at the government-to-government (G2G) level.
> 
> This was portrayed as Modi’s “out of the box” solution for a problem that didn’t really exist. Plainly, he mistook the hard, extended, bargaining between the two sides as evidence of red tape, and cutting it as his unique achievement. But impatience is a liability in international relations and can cost the country plenty.
> 
> Rather than pressuring French president Francois Hollande and the French aviation major, Dassault, which is in dire straits and was in no position to resist sustained Indian pressure to deliver the Rafale and the technologies involved in toto to India, Modi eased off, promising a munificent $5billion-$8 billion for 36 Rafales off the shelf minus any reference to the L1 (lowest cost) MMRCA tender offer, possibly a buy of another 30 of them, and no onerous technology transfer obligation.
> 
> It is a turn that must have astonished Hollande and Dassault with its exceptional generosity, surpassing in its muddle-headed excess Narasimha Rao’s handout of Rs 6,000 crore in 1996 to Russia to prevent the closure of the Sukhoi design bureau and production plant in Irkutsk, in return for nothing, not even joint share of the intellectual property rights for the Su-30MKI technologies subsequently produced there, which could have kick-started the Indian aerospace sector. Then again, India is a phenomenally rich country, don’t you know?—the proverbial white knight rescuing the Russian aviation industry one day, French aerospace companies the next.
> 
> But let’s try and see if sense can be made of Modi’s Rafale deal. Much has been said about the G2G channel as a means of securing low prices. The record of acquisitions from the United States in the direct sales mode, however, shows no marked drop-off in the price for the C-17s and C-130J airlifters and the P-8I maritime reconnaissance planes. But in terms of maintenance, almost all the 20-odd ANTPQ-36/37 artillery fire-spotting radar units bought by the army from the Pentagon, for instance, are offline due to the paucity of spares. Supplier states in this situation routinely manipulate the spares supply to configure politico-military outcomes they desire. No saying what France will do with respect to the entire fleet of IAF Rafales in the years to come. Usually, the practice also is to sell the platform cheap but rake in extortionist profit selling onboard weapons and spares. In any case, it is unlikely the price of a fully loaded Rafale will be less than $200 million each or $7.2 billion for 36 Rafales, $13 billion for 66 of these aircraft, and $25.2 billion for 126 planes.
> 
> Then again, French fighter planes have proved inordinately expensive to maintain. How expensive? According to a recent report by the Comptroller and Accountant General, in 2012-2013, for example, the total cost of upkeep of all 51 Mirage 2000 aircraft in the IAF inventory was Rs 486.85 crore compared to Rs 877.84 crore for 170 Su-30MKIs—meaning, the annual unit cost of maintaining a Mirage was Rs 9.5 crore versus Rs 5.2 crore for the more capable Su-30MKI. Now ponder over this: The cost of upkeep of a Rafale is authoritatively estimated at twice the cost of the Mirage and, hence, four times that of Su-30!
> 
> The “Super Sukhoi” avatar of the air dominance-capable Su-30 entering IAF is equipped with the latest AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar permitting the switching between air-to-air and air-to-ground roles in flight, and which radar will be retrofitted on the older versions of this plane in service. In the event, in what combat profile exactly is the Rafale superior?
> 
> The defence minister Manohar Parrikar was partial to the Su-30 option, having publicly stated that it was more affordable—its procurement price half that of a Rafale, and that owing to improved spares supply condition, its serviceability rate would rise to 75 per cent by year-end, exceeding that of the Mirage, incidentally. Even so, the loyal Parrikar praised Modi’s Rafale initiative as providing “minimum oxygen” for the IAF without letting on that it will maximally oxygenate French interests and industry!
> 
> While Modi talked of a low G2G price for the Rafale, he said nothing about its servicing bill. According to a former Vice Chief of the Air Staff, the total life-cycle costs (LCC) for a fleet of 126 Rafales calculated by Air Headquarters is over $40 billion. How will the LCC be downscaled if only 36 or 66 Rafales are eventually bought? If the real acquisition price of the ordnance-loaded Rafales is added to the LCC the total outgo will be upwards of $50billion-$55 billion, a figure this analyst had mentioned many moons ago.
> 
> Indeed, the odds actually are that India will end up buying the entire MMRCA requirement from France. Why? With 36 aircraft slotted in the direct sales category, it is already cost-prohibitive for any Indian private sector company to invest in a production line valued at $5billion-$6 billion to produce the remaining 60 or even 90 aircraft. In other words, by pledging to buy enhanced numbers of Rafales from Dassault the Narendra Modi government will be constrained by economic logic to buy the rest from this source as well, a denouement the IAF had always desired. Why else was the IAF Chief Arup Raha so desperate to get the PM to commit to buying significant numbers of this aircraft outright on the pretext of “critical” need when the Rafales will come in only by 2018 at the earliest but importing Su-30s from Russia would have beefed up the force by this year-end?
> 
> Previous prime ministers have been victimised by bad advice, and paid the political price, for instance, Rajiv Gandhi with regard to the Bofors gun. Modi will have to carry the can for this Rafale transaction—a boondoggle in the making. With the opposition parties and Dr Subramaniam Swamy waking up to its potential to politically hamstring the BJP government and mar Modi’s prospects, anything can happen.


Some gullible people think decisions worth billions of dollars are taken without thinking through it and just based on someone's bad judgement. People can be educated but common sense cannot be imparted.


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## Hindustani78

Rafale deal: Dassault likely to enter into JV with Indian firm | Zee News
Last Updated: Sunday, May 3, 2015 - 15:17

*New Delhi: The multi-billion deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets could see French defence major Dassault Aviation entering into a joint venture with state-run HAL or any private player to set up a base here for augmenting its existing production line.*

Defence sources said such a step, *if taken will not only allow the French firm to ramp up its production rate but will help it to meet offset obligations in India, likely to be 30-50 per cent of the sales value.*

Considered as the first major push under *'Make in India' category in defence sector, the approach will also mean that the French company would stand a better chance in case the Indian government decides to go for more Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft later than the initial 36 agreed.*

*It will allow Dassault Aviation to set up manufacturing facilities in India to augment its existing production line in Merignac in France under a joint venture with HAL or a private player of its choice. From the operation and sustainment perspective also, creating of these facilities will help the IAF, the sources said.*

These issues among others would be discussed during the forthcoming visit of French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian on May 6 with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar and National Security Advisor Ajit Doval, they said.

The Minister is flying down on May 5 from Qatar to firm up the modalities as India wants the fighter aircraft as soon as possible.

"This visit will focus on firming up the broad parameters for the deal under which the contract would eventually be inked," the sources said.

French sources said they "are open to any idea" but insisted that nothing has been fixed as yet.

"We will have to see how the meeting will go and then get a feedback to actually decide what can be done. We are open to all ideas. Something will have to be done," they said when asked about the plans for a joint venture.

*The production rate of Dassault Aviation for Rafale stands at about 1 aircraft per month.* However, the company has bagged three major contracts this year totalling to 84 aircraft, all of which have to be delivered fast.

The l*atest contract to be won by Dassault was from Qatar for 24 Rafale fighter jets and MBDA missiles.*

Last month, India and France had agreed to get into a government to government contract for 37 Rafale jets in fly-away condition to be delivered keeping the critical requirement of the Indian Air Force in mind.

In February, Egypt had become the first foreign buyer of Rafale with a contract for 24 aircraft. Also, the orders of the French Navy are pending.

While all the three deals are under government to government contract, contours of the agreement in case of deal with India are still unknown as this would be first such deal between France and India in defence.

PTI


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## Thorough Pro

isn't india buying off the shelf jets in ready tom fly condition? if yes then what is the JV for?


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## Hindustani78

Thorough Pro said:


> isn't india buying off the shelf jets in ready tom fly condition? if yes then what is the JV for?



I think its more about *manufacturing facilities in India.*

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## halloweene

@sancho sry was writing two pieces, one for Defesanet about Serpentex exercise and on for our blog about Paris Air and Space museum. So many sales also it was hard to follow. Generally speaking, french are very slightly proud of success (even if some criticise Qatar) and mostly indifferent. On french air fora it was Champagne...

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## sancho

Thorough Pro said:


> isn't india buying off the shelf jets in ready tom fly condition? if yes then what is the JV for?



As @Hindustani78 said, it's a JV to divert production parts to India, since our procurement laws demands 30% of the value of the deal, to be diverted back to India. The JV part is nothing new though, only that the new government wants offsets to be from the purchased product and not of other things. Boeing for example diverted the production of P8 airframe parts to HAL, as offsets in the P8I deal which would be ok according to the new policy, while they provided offsets to windtunnel projects as part of the C17 offsets and that's somehow not good anymore for whatever reasons.


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## Abingdonboy

Thorough Pro said:


> isn't india buying off the shelf jets in ready tom fly condition? if yes then what is the JV for?


36 jets are being off the shelf from France.

The JV is for manufacturing many more (108+) Rafales IN INDIA.

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> @sancho sry was writing two pieces, one for Defesanet about Serpentex exercise and on for our blog about Paris Air and Space museum. So many sales also it was hard to follow. Generally speaking, french are very slightly proud of success (even if some criticise Qatar) and mostly indifferent. On french air fora it was Champagne...



Why criticism over the Qatar deal? It's the first one that Dassault actually did on it's own and as it seems, adds orders instead of diverting them from French orders. So that's good isn't it? I only was interested to see the low number of the order, since the speculations were about 36 up to 72. Btw, do you have any infos on their M2Ks and if there is a buy back / 2nd hade sale deal included similar to what the UAE wanted.


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## SpArK

How is now France plans to do the production of all these orders?

India, Qatar, Egypt....and maybe more?


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> How is now France plans to do the production of all these orders?
> 
> India, Qatar, Egypt....and maybe more?



So far there are not much more orders of fighters, since most of them are diverted from the F3+ order of the French government. Only the 24 for Qatar and a few for Egypt will be F3Rs and even here it needs to be seen if Egypt gets French initial orders too. The most logical point to increase the production rate, is the change to F3R, since that is the version that will effect most of the customers (possibly the UAE too), which however is the problem for India, since our requirement is based on the current F3+.

At this point there seems to be 180 fighters on order from the French government + 24 from Qatar.


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> So far there are not much more orders of fighters, since most of them are diverted from the F3+ order of the French government. Only the 24 for Qatar and a few for Egypt will be F3Rs and even here it needs to be seen if Egypt gets French initial orders too. The most logical point to increase the production rate, is the change to F3R, since that is the version that will effect most of the customers (possibly the UAE too), which however is the problem for India, since our requirement is based on the current F3+.
> 
> At this point there seems to be 180 fighters on order from the French government + 24 from Qatar.




Do they have capabilities for production increase.

Is there any update on on light fighter options as told by Manparikka?


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Do they have capabilities for production increase.
> 
> Is there any update on on light fighter options as told by Manparikka?



Yes, they can ramp up the production up to 30 fighters a year, but that's only possible if additional orders requires more fighters being produced. French orders being diverted to export customers, doesn't require that, since it don't add numbers, until the French government orders new once to replace the once they gave up. But at the current financial state, they are more happy to get money back, than spending more. They might add the orders at a later stage, depending on the export orders and the requirements of the French forces (most older Mirage already replaced, the M2Ks being upgraded and even the the French navy will already have most of it's Rafale by this year end if I'm not wrong, so there is no urgent need).

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## Hindustani78

Last Updated: Monday, May 4, 2015 - 13:15
Rafale deal negotiations to begin this month: Manohar Parrikar | Zee News





*Zee Media Bureau*

New Delhi: Ahead of French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian's visit, the government on Monday said that negotiations for procurement of Rafale fighter jets for Indian Air Force (IAF) will begin this month and the multi-billion dollar deal will be finalised "as early as possible".


*"The government to government committee will be set up which will begin negotiations on the deal. The negotiations will start anytime in May and we have to conclude them as early as possible," Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was quoted as saying by PTI.*

Parrikar made these remarks in Goa.

He, however, refused to set any deadline to seal the much-hyped deal claiming *"since it is government to government procedure, the deal would be quick".*

The French Defence Minister is expected to be in New Delhi on May 6 to finalise the modalities for the negotiations.

*"He will visit only for the purpose of setting up modalities and take the process forward. We will not be directly involved in future talks. The committee is being appointed for it by two governments to kick start the process and fix the modalities," Parrikar said.*

The Defence Minister said the government appointed committee will complete the negotiations in a time bound fashion.

He said that procedure to work with countries in defence sector has been well established.

"We are working government to government with many countries including the US, Israel and Russia. We have already worked with France in past," Parrikar said.

He said since it is an important deal the negotiation aspects will be discussed by the governments and terms for the committee would be set up by the defence ministries.

Government's original plan was to buy 126 Rafale aircraft - valued at around USD 11 billion in the first tender floated in 2007. The planes were envisaged to be made in India with Hindustan Aeronautics.

Given the delays, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced a truncated deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets for over USD 6 billion, to begin with, during his visit to France last month.

With PTI inputs


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## PARIKRAMA

*DASSAULT LIKELY TO TIE UP WITH HINDUSTAN AERONAUTICS LIMITED FOR PRODUCTION OF FIGHTER JETS*

New Delhi: The multi-billion deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets could see French defence major Dassault Aviation entering into a joint venture with state-run HAL or any private player to set up a base here for augmenting its existing production line. Defence sources said, such a step, if taken will not only allow the French firm to ramp up its production rate, but will help it to meet offset obligations in India, likely to be 30-50 per cent of the sales value.

Considered as the first major push under ‘Make in India’ category in defence sector, the approach will also mean that the French company would stand a better chance in case the Indian government decides to go for more Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft later than the initial 36 agreed.




It will allow Dassault Aviation to set up manufacturing facilities in India to augment its existing production line in Merignac in France under a joint venture with HAL or a private player of its choice. From the operation and sustainment perspective also, creating of these facilities will help the IAF, the sources said. These issues among others would be discussed during the forthcoming visit of French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian on May 6 with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar and National Security Advisor Ajit Doval.

The minister is flying down on May 5 from Qatar to firm up the modalities as India wants the fighter aircraft as soon as possible. “This visit will focus on firming up the broad parameters for the deal under which the contract would eventually be inked,” the sources said. French sources said they “are open to any idea”, but insisted that nothing has been fixed as yet. “We will have to see how the meeting will go and then get a feedback to actually decide what can be done. We are open to all ideas,” they said when asked about the plans for a joint venture.

The production rate of Dassault Aviation for Rafale stands at about 1 aircraft per month. However, the company has bagged three major contracts this year totalling to 84 aircraft, all of which have to be delivered fast. The latest contract to be won by Dassault was from Qatar for 24 Rafale fighter jets and MBDA missiles.
Dassault likely to tie up with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for production of fighter jets

*PRESS RELEASE*
*Successful first guided firing of Meteor from Rafale 
30/04/2015*


On 28th April 2015, teams from the French Ministry of Defence, Dassault Aviation and MBDA carried out the first guided firing of the long-range Meteor missile against an air target from a Rafale combat aircraft. The firing, from a Rafale prepared at the DGA’s Cazaux Flight Test Centre (near Bordeaux, S.W. France), proceeded successfully within the secured zone of the DGA Essais de Missiles (previously Centre d'Essais des Landes) in Biscarosse (also near Bordeaux). Following on from earlier missile separation trials carried out in 2013 and 2014, this firing represents an important milestone in the integration of Meteor onto the Rafale in line with the development of the aircraft in its next F3-R standard.

With a throttleable ramjet motor and ‘fire and forget’ firing mode, Meteor is intended for very long BVR (Beyond Visual Range) air defence operations. Thanks to the performance of the RBE2 AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar which equips the Rafale (the only European combat aircraft currently equipped operationally with this kind of sensor), it is able to intercept targets at very long range thereby complementing the currently deployed MICA missile used for combat and self defence. The first Meteor missiles will be delivered as of 2018 to equip the Rafales of the French Air Force and Navy.

The result of a cooperation between France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Sweden and the UK launched in 2003, Meteor is a federated programme enabling the consolidation of the European defence industry and technology base associated with the missile sector. The main industrial partners of MBDA UK, the industrial prime contractor for the programme, are MBDA France, MBDA Italy, SAAB (Sweden), Bayern-Chemie (a fully owned subsidiary of MBDA Deutschland) and Inmize (Spain)






Missile systems, defence systems - MBDA missiles


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## 1 naga warrior

As defence minister hinted a possible Buying of another single engine figjter and mk in india i wud prefer f16 block 60 if us allows local manufacture.i think its more advanced than tht of griPen. As it can take on chinese fighters alone but i doubt about gripen.and that should b our last buy from foriegn manufactute.rest should be our mk2',amca and fgfa only.those f16 can support mki s against china.just my opinion


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## sathya

1 naga warrior said:


> As defence minister hinted a possible Buying of another single engine figjter and mk in india i wud prefer f16 block 60 if us allows local manufacture.i think its more advanced than tht of griPen. As it can take on chinese fighters alone but i doubt about gripen.and that should b our last buy from foriegn manufactute.rest should be our mk2',amca and fgfa only.those f16 can support mki s against china.just my opinion



will it be free of strings?
pak already knows F16 inside out. they might even retire older crafts in some years.. why are we thinking to buy it now..
after getting Rafale, any other aircraft seems only to have less chance.
pushing tejas mk2 early is the way to go...

but damn.. no news news about mk2 .. other than the preparation of the blue prints for parts..

if we get AMRAAM or Meteor for tejas mk2, it should be fine..


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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
05-May, 2015 16:54 IST 

Capability for Domestic Production of Rafale Aircrafts

An advance aircraft such as Rafale can be produced in India after Transfer of Technology (ToT) by the Original Aircraft Manufacturer. As per the India-France Joint Statement issued by the two countries during the Prime Minister’s visit to France, Government of India conveyed to the Government of France that in view of the critical operational necessity for Multirole Combat Aircraft for Indian Air Force (IAF), Government of India would like to acquire 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible. The two leaders agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway, the delivery would be in time-frame that would be compatible with the operational requirement of IAF; and that the aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by IAF, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France. 

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Ravi Prakash Verma in Rajya Sabha today. 

DM/HH/RAJ   
(Release ID :121204)

Last Updated: Tuesday, May 5, 2015 - 23:49
Rafale delivery in accordance with IAF's operational needs: Govt | Zee News


New Delhi: The delivery of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France would be in a time frame compatible with the operational requirement of the IAF, the Rajya Sabha was told on Tuesday.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar also said the 36 aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by the IAF, and with with a longer maintenance responsibility by France.

In a written reply, Parrikar said India would like to acquire the jets in "fly away" condition as quickly as possible.

He was referring to an agreement signed between India and France during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Paris.

He also said an inter-governmental agreement has been signed with the Russian Federation for design, development, production of a Prospective Multi Role Fighter Aircraft.

India has in recent years launched a vast defence modernisation programme worth some USD 100 billion, partly to keep up with rival neighbours Pakistan and China.

PTI


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## PARIKRAMA

*Rafale Deal: India, France Set Up Teams to Work Out Details*
All India | Press Trust of India | Updated: May 06, 2015 14:55 IST





Prime Minister Narendra Modi had last month announced India's intention to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from France under a government to government deal during his trip to the country.

As a follow-up on the subject, Mr Drian and Mr Parrikar met in Delhi to decide on the way forward.

"The two Defence Ministers discussed modalities in order to reach an early conclusion of an Inter-Governmental agreement on the subject. The two sides decided to set up teams to work out the details in a time bound manner," a short statement by the Defence Ministry said.

French defence major Dassault Aviation, manufacturer of Rafale, is likely to enter into a joint venture with state-run HAL or any private player to set up a base in Delhi for augmenting its existing production line in Merignac in France, defence sources had said.

The deal is estimated to be over 6 billion dollars and will have about 30-50 per cent offset.

Rafale Deal: India, France Set Up Teams to Work Out Details

*France, India pledge swift conclusion to fighter jet deal*


AFP – 34 minutes ago


France's defence minister and his Indian counterpart pledged Wednesday to quickly wrap up negotiations over the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets, agreeing to set up teams to nail down the deal.

The meeting between Jean-Yves Le Drian and Manohar Parrikar came some four weeks after the announcement of an outline purchase agreement which fell a long way short of previous proposals for India to buy 126 of the jets made by French firm Dassault.

"The two defence ministers discussed modalities in order to reach an early conclusion of an Inter-Governmental Agreement on the subject," according to a joint statement issued after the talks in New Delhi.

"The two sides decided to set up teams to work out the details in a time-bound manner."

During a visit to France last month, India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced that New Delhi had ordered 36 of the "ready to fly" planes.

The deal -- estimated to be worth five billion euros ($5.5 billion) -- followed tortuous years-long negotiations on buying the jets.

Talks began in 2012 about the possible purchase of 126 of the planes as part of a $12-billion deal. But they became bogged down over cost and New Delhi's insistence that 108 of the planes be manufactured in India.

After news of the deal for 36 planes was announced, Parrikar played down expectations of a larger deal.

India has in recent years launched a vast defence modernisation programme worth some $100 billion, partly to keep up with rival neighbours Pakistan and China.

But contracts for new military hardware have been bogged down in India's bureaucracy, while some were mired in corruption scandals under the previous Congress-led government.

France, India pledge swift conclusion to fighter jet deal - Yahoo Finance UK

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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
06-May, 2015 13:20 IST
*Meeting Between Defence Ministers of India and France*

Joint Statement issued during Prime Minister’s visit to France, inter-alia, included acquisition of 36 Rafale jets in fly away condition, through an Inter-Governmental Agreement. To follow-up on the subject, Mr. LE Drian, the Defence Minister of France and Mr. Manohar Parrikar, the Defence Minister of India met today at New Delhi to decide on the way forward in this regard. The two Defence Ministers discussed modalities in order to reach an early conclusion of an Inter-Governmental Agreement on the subject. The two sides decided to set up teams to work out the details in a time bound manner. 

NAo/RAJ 
(Release ID :121228)


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## IND151

India, France set for Rafale talks, old Mirage deal may come handy | idrw.org


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## Badbadman

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/596344465666650112


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## 1 naga warrior

1.Light fighter- f16, tejas mk2, mirage 2000
2.Medium fighter- rafale, typhoon, f-35, mig29,
3.Heavy fighter- su 30, fgfa, f15 eagle, amca

4. Naval fighter- tejas mk2, rafale, f35, mig29, f18 and amca for 6 carrier battle group

My dream fleet..damn..if it happens..no country can counter iaf.and navy..chinese will say gud bye dragon....


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## BruceWayne007

wake up please

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## I M Sikander

1 naga warrior said:


> 1.Light fighter- f16, tejas mk2, mirage 2000
> 2.Medium fighter- rafale, typhoon, f-35, mig29,
> 3.Heavy fighter- su 30, fgfa, f15 eagle, amca
> 
> 4. Naval fighter- tejas mk2, rafale, f35, mig29, f18 and amca for 6 carrier battle group
> 
> My dream fleet..damn..if it happens..no country can counter iaf.and navy..chinese will say gud bye dragon....


Kid like you never get mature
F16, f18, f15 eagle, euro fighter, f35 in iaf, my goodness. Please dont fart in forums.

You forgot to add space shuttles.

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## Hindustani78

France offers India fly-away Rafales at same rate as to own air force | Zee News
Last Updated: Friday, May 8, 2015 - 00:30



New Delhi: France is offering India 36 Rafale fighter jets in fly-away condition at the same price which it pays to French defence major Dassault Aviation to equip its own air force, defence sources said.


They added that this means that the cost per aircraft will be much lower than the price that was being worked out under the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, which also involved transfer of technology.

*"The price of the aircraft for India will be the same as the price at which it is sold to the French air force. This was the case during the deal for Mirage fighters too,"* sources said.

They added that the final pricing will depend on the specific requirements that India seeks from France and how the negotiation goes forward.

The said offer is in keeping with the joint statement issued during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's recent visit to France where he announced the intention to buy 36 Rafales off the shelf.

*"The two leaders (Modi, French President) agreed to conclude an inter-governmental agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than what is conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway,"* the statement had said.

The *"separate process"* was the MMRCA tender which had been stuck for years over pricing and other issues.

French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian had met with his counterpart Manohar Parrikar here yesterday following which the two sides decided to form special teams that will work in a time-bound manner to conclude negotiations.

Defence sources said the teams will work out the finer details of the deal, including the pricing.

They also questioned the possibility whether the deal may have an offset clause, saying it would be difficult if the pricing for Indian aircraft remains the same as that for the French air force.

As per industry experts, the price of a Rafale to French air force works out to anywhere between USD 200-220 million.

"If we take the lowest value of USD 200 million, it will work out to around Rs 1,240 crore per aircraft. Even if we increase it to Rs 1,300 crore, it would be a better price than earlier," sources said.

The price per aircraft not only includes its own cost but also that for maintenance, training of pilots and technicians, armaments and spares.

Qatar has recently signed a deal worth over USD 7 billion for 24 Rafale jets. This includes MBDA missiles and the cost for the training of 36 Qatari pilots and 100 technicians. The value of each aircraft thus comes to over USD 290 million.

Asked if that price would be acceptable to India, the sources said it would have been "very expensive".

Modi has said that the aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by Indian Air Force, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France. 

PTI


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## PARIKRAMA

*Air Force in the world - MBDA & Qatar
Qatar Emiri Air Force To Get The Full Range of MBDA Missiles for its 24 Rafale fighters*
_By Nathan Gain
Air Recognition_ learned some of the contract details signed between missiles manufacturer MBDA and the Qatar Emirate. According to an industry source who wished to remain unnamed, this contract includes the full range of Rafale weapons available for export: Exocet AM 39 Block II, SCALP, AASM, MICA IR, MICA EM and Meteor missiles. Air Recognition understands this order would be the largest export contract ever signed by MBDA.






*An AM39 Exocet Anti-ship missile fitted on a Rafale center fuselage pylon (along with 6x MICA missiles and 2 external fuel tanks)
( Picture: MBDA*)

In addition to the 24 Rafale fighter aircraft, *the $7bn contract signed on May 4 2015 by France and Qatar* also includes training for 36 Qatari pilots and 100 technicians and the following MBDA missiles:
*60 Exocet AM39 Block2 Mod2 anti-ship missiles*

The Exocet AM39 is the airborne version of the Exocet anti-ship missile family. Exocet AM39 is in service with the French armed forces and the navies of 11 other countries. In January 2004, the French DGA (Direction Générale de l’Armement) awarded MBDA with the contract covering the development of both the Exocet AM39 Block2 Mod2 and the Exocet MM40 Block3. In June 2007, the latest Mod2 development of the Exocet AM39 Block2 completed its final validation firing from a naval Rafale F3 combat aircraft. The firing also served as the validation firing for the Rafale in its F3 standard. An operational evaluation firing took place in September 2012 from a Rafale marking the end of military testing and the start of the missile’s operational life on this aircraft. The Mod2 evolution has seen the digitisation of Exocet AM39 Block2, an adaptation called for by the requirements of the latest generation of rotary and fixed wing aircraft such as the Rafale F3.





*A Rafale fighter aircraft fitted with 2x MICA IR (wing tips), 2x MICA EM, 2x SCALP/Storm Shadow and 3x fuel tanks. 
(Picture: French Air Force)*

*140 SCALP Cruise Missiles*
The Storm Shadow /SCALP missile (Système de Croisière Autonome à Longue Portée) is a long-range, air-launched, stand-off attack missile. The missile is intended to strike high-valued stationary assets such as airbases, radar installations, communications hubs and port facilities. The SCALP is capable of engaging the targets precisely in any weather conditions during day and night. The long range and low attitude combined with subsonic speed make the Storm Shadow a stealthy missile. 

Storm Shadow was successfully deployed on Tornado GR4 combat aircraft by the Royal Air Force’s 617 “Dambusters” Squadron during Operation Telic in 2003. A total of 27 missiles were fired during the conflict delivering significant in-target effect and proving the missile’s exceptional capability to accurately engage targets at extended ranges ensuring that the launch aircraft remains safely away from the target area. The first operational use of SCALP by France in a conflict occurred on March 24, 2011. Several SCALPs were fired against a military air base of Gaddafi’s loyalist forces in Libya. The raid employed two Mirage 2000D and two Rafale Air operated from air bases in France as well as two Rafale Marine operated from the “Charles-de-Gaulle” aircraft carrier in the Mediterranean.

During the same operations in Libya, the Royal Air Force and the Italian Air Force also fired a substantial quantity of Storm Shadows against high value military targets from their Tornado aircraft.





*A Rafale in heavy configuration: Featuring 6x AASM, 2x MICA IR (wingtips), 2x MICA EM and 2x METEOR long range air to air missiles
(Picture: Dassault Aviation)*

*300 AASM weapons systems*
The Armement Air-Sol Modulaire (AASM) HAMMER (Highly Agile Modular Munition Extended Range) is a new generation medium-range modular air-to-ground weapon designed and manufactured by Sagem (Safran group), and marketed by MBDA. The standard AASM GPS/inertial version has been deployed onboard Rafale twin-jet, multi-role combat fighters of French Air Force and Navy since 2008 and 2010 respectively. Up to six hammer missiles can be carried by a Rafale fighter. The AASM weapon system has a length of 3m and weight of 330kg, and has a range of over 60km at high altitudes and 15km at low altitudes. It has fire and forget capability, and an extended stand-off capacity.

*150 MICA IR and 150 MICA EM air to air missiles*

MICA is the reference multi-mission air to-air missile system for the Rafale and the latest versions of the Mirage 2000 combat aircraft. Developed by MBDA, MICA provides a high level of tactical flexibility. The MICA system comprises 2 versions: MICA (EM) RF with an active radio frequency seeker and MICA IR with a passive dual waveband imaging infrared seeker. Both missiles are fully qualified and in mass production, being currently flown by numerous air forces worldwide

A “full MICA” configuration on an aircraft such as Rafale gives a very flexible and high BVR fire power for Air Superiority during all kind of missions: combat air patrol, sweep, deep strike, recce, maritime operations. MICA missile in BVR mode introduces a new way of waging air combat by offering multi-target capability at extended ranges with the two interoperable guidance systems to hamper enemy counter measures. All carried (EM) RF or IR MICA missiles are fully BVR, being operable with or without data link target designation updating.

In short range (SR) combat, a MICA configuration on an aircraft offers a full "new generation" capability thanks to the outstanding performance of the missile (extreme agility and manoeuvrability). An additional advantage lies in the possibility of launching MICA with its seeker (namely IR) either locked-on to the target or not, while still featuring all BVR qualities.





*On 28th April 2015 teams from the French Ministry of Defence, Dassault Aviation and MBDA carried out the first guided firing of the long-range Meteor missile against an air target from a Rafale combat aircraft. 
(Picture: DGA)*

*160 Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile*
The Meteor is a next generation, active radar-guided, beyond visual range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) system. The missile has a range in excess of 100km. It is designed for a speed greater than Mach 4. The missile has a large no escape zone. With a throttleable ramjet motor and ‘fire and forget’ firing mode, Meteor is intended for very long BVR (Beyond Visual Range) air defence operations. 

Thanks to the performance of the RBE2 AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar which equips the Rafale (the only European combat aircraft currently equipped operationally with this kind of sensor), it is able to intercept targets at very long range thereby complementing the currently deployed MICA missile used for combat and self defence. The first Meteor missiles will be delivered as of 2018 to equip the Rafales of the French Air Force and Navy.

Qatar Emiri Air Force To Get The Full Range of MBDA Missiles for its 24 Rafale fighters 0705152

In Short

*24 Rafales*
*The $7bn contract*
*Training for 36 Qatari pilots and 100 technicians*
*60 Exocet AM39 Block2 Mod2 anti-ship missiles*
*140 SCALP Cruise Missiles*
*300 AASM weapons systems*
*150 MICA IR *
*150 MICA EM air to air missiles*
*160 Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile*
@sancho @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Gabriel92 @halloweene @DrSomnath999 
A rough estimate of all in cost at 290 Mn per bird for the whole package looks good, is nt it? The missile configuration as part of weapons contract looks impressive. As if Qatar is readying for a war mode with 24 rafales!!!
BTW if we just have to guesstimate, what you folks think of India's weapon deal order? Surely these same weapons package (perhaps with higher numbers) would indicate and may even trigger a much larger fear among its adversaries. But also the higher number may indicate a rationale to use the weapons in some other platform (which atm seems difficult unless MBDA agrees to custom code it for say Su30 MKIs). But all in all a very impressive weapon load for Qatari Rafales..

*
*

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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> BTW if we just have to guesstimate, what you folks think of India's weapon deal order?



Not necessarily the same one, once because we still aim on the F3+ not the F3R as Qatar, but also because IAF wanted customizations, while Qatar just took what the French had integrated or are developing anyway.
At least the first 36 are not likely to come with METEOR, the fact that we haven't selected AASM for the M2K upgrade and went with SPICE, makes the Israeli weapon a more likely choice. With the arrival of the SPICE 250 makes it even more difficult for the AASM and the Exocet should have no chance at all, since IAF and IN prefers the Harpoon. Which makes MICA to the only clear commonality to the Qatari weapon pack.
But then again, this is based on the initial IAF requirements and the MMRCA tender, the way the new government messes things up, I wouldn't be too surprised if they reduce the number of customizations and capability improvements, so who knows?

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## IND151

Hindustani78 said:


> Ministry of Defence
> 05-May, 2015 16:54 IST
> 
> Capability for Domestic Production of Rafale Aircrafts
> 
> An advance aircraft such as Rafale can be produced in India after Transfer of Technology (ToT) by the Original Aircraft Manufacturer. As per the India-France Joint Statement issued by the two countries during the Prime Minister’s visit to France, Government of India conveyed to the Government of France that in view of the critical operational necessity for Multirole Combat Aircraft for Indian Air Force (IAF), Government of India would like to acquire 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible. The two leaders agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway, the delivery would be in time-frame that would be compatible with the operational requirement of IAF; and that the aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by IAF, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France.
> 
> This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Ravi Prakash Verma in Rajya Sabha today.
> 
> DM/HH/RAJ
> (Release ID :121204)
> 
> Last Updated: Tuesday, May 5, 2015 - 23:49
> Rafale delivery in accordance with IAF's operational needs: Govt | Zee News
> 
> 
> New Delhi: The delivery of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France would be in a time frame compatible with the operational requirement of the IAF, the Rajya Sabha was told on Tuesday.
> 
> Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar also said the 36 aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by the IAF, and with with a longer maintenance responsibility by France.
> 
> In a written reply, Parrikar said India would like to acquire the jets in "fly away" condition as quickly as possible.
> 
> He was referring to an agreement signed between India and France during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Paris.
> 
> He also said an inter-governmental agreement has been signed with the Russian Federation for design, development, production of a Prospective Multi Role Fighter Aircraft.
> 
> India has in recent years launched a vast defence modernisation programme worth some USD 100 billion, partly to keep up with rival neighbours Pakistan and China.
> 
> PTI





> The IAF is committed to procuring an initial 83 Tejas Mk 2s and the Indian Navy has expressed its firm requirement for 46 LCA Mk2 (Navy).[58][149][150]




*



Tejas Mark 3[edit]

The Tejas Mark 3 is planned to be stealthier than Mark 2 and have composite usage up to 70 percent of the aircraft. It is to also feature reduced infrared signature.[152]

Click to expand...

*


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## ziaulislam

Ammyy said:


> Where you found Rafale deal fall?? We just change the way to purchase them.
> 
> First 36 built by france.. mean while we will sign deal to built them locally with some private company. Number will remain same.


Keep dreaming....per official statement MRCA tender is dead, they will go 36 in govt to govt deal with probably a few more if finances allow it. no home manufacturing that's a big no no


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## Hindustani78

50% of Rafale deal value will be invested in India: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar - The Times of India
MEERA MOHANTY & Manu Pubby,ET Bureau | May 11, 2015, 12.20 PM IST

NEW DELHI: Terrorists, irrespective of wherever they may be operating from, should be neutralised using all types of methods, Defence minister Manohar Parrikar told ET in an exclusive interview. He elaborated that "neutralisation" doesn't necessarily mean killing terrorists but making them "ineffective."

Parrikar also criticised ex-BJP minister Arun Shourie, saying the latter "does not have the full brief on what is happening". Shourie had recently said the Narendra Modi government was faltering on policymaking and delivery.

Responding to a question on how India should deal with terrorists in foreign territory, the defence minister said: "A terrorist has to be neutralised-...Certain issues cannot be discussed but I feel that for any enemy of the country, all types of methods should be used to neutralise them."

"Neutralising does not mean just killing...it means any method that makes them non-functional - get him to jail or to make him ineffective in any manner," Parrikar added.

In his wide-ranging interaction with ET covering several key policy areas, Parrikar also set out the exact figure on India's manufacturing share of the Rafale fighter jet project - France will need to spend 50% of the contract value, almost four billion dollars, as investments in the Indian defence and aerospace sector. The minister said the Rafale jet project will "unleash Make-in- India".

Parrikar also said that with India buying around 36 Rafale jets for now, government savings on this project is likely to be up Rs 60,000-65,000 crore. This money, Parrikar said, will be used to accelerate defence manufacturing in India, including speeding up the long-ingestation Light Combat Aircraft. The minister said LCA will be inducted in large numbers, up to 200 fighters or 10 squadrons.

Parrikar linked low levels infiltration from Pakistan and fewer incidents of cross-border firing this year to Indian forces' strong retaliation to "misadventures".

Acknowledging that defence forces face an issue on resources, the minister said all three wings, army, air force and navy, must prioritise spending. All three wings have been asked to make a list of must-have items, Parrikar said. He said Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) would have a new head by May 24.

DRDO will also have a separate Scientific Advisor, who will be attached to the ministry for independent advice. Parrikar said for important projects he will form consortiums of all stakeholders from the government system, it won't be just DRDO taking all the critical decisions.If the army has to operate in the Jammu & Kashmir, it needs AFSPA: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar

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## Hindustani78

Last Updated: Saturday, May 16, 2015 - 19:52
Talks on Rafale deal should have started: Parrikar | Zee News

Panaji: Initial discussions between the Indian and French sides over the purchase of Rafale fighter jets "should have started" already, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said here on Saturday.


Parrikar, who was addressing a press conference at the party`s state headquarters, also said the current Defence Procurement Procedure was a* "very cumbersome process" *and that it required a bold initiative by Prime Minister Narendra Modi to seal the Rafale deal with the French government.

"On May 13, our committee was formed, which is headed by (Deputy Chief of Air staff) Air Marshal (S.B.P.) Sinha from our side and his officers. Not negotiations, from today talks should have started," Parrikar said.

He lamented that because of the current Defence Procurement Procedure, India could not buy a fighter plane for over 15 years.

*"The exercise started in 2000 and could not be concluded even by 2015. For 15 years we did not buy a single plane. So we took a very bold initiative and Modi decided to buy it directly with a better price and on better terms. What they are will be revealed in a month or two," *Parrikar said, adding that speeding up the process was necessary.

*"We took it on a fast track. That was necessary," *Parrikar said.

Prime Minister Modi during his visit to France in April signed an agreement to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets for $6 billion.

IANS


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## Hindustani78

Last Updated: Saturday, May 16, 2015 - 23:15
French team in India to negotiate Rafale deal | Zee News

Panaji: French team constituted to negotiate the Rafale deal has arrived in India and talks can start anytime now, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said on Saturday as he described the agreement as "one of the bold initiatives" of the Modi government.


Parrikar said India has constituted a committee headed by Air Marshal SBP Sinha to hold negotiations with the French team.

"The negotiations on Rafale deal can start anytime from now.*Indian government has already formed a committee headed by Air Marshal Sinha. The team from France already arrived in India on May 12 to start the negotiations," he told reporters.*

India is to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets in flyaway condition from France after Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Francois Hollande last month agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement bypassing the protracted negotiations for purchase of 126 such jets.

The two countries had decided to form committees to take forward the negotiations.

*"The signing of agreement for Rafale purchase was one of the bold decisions taken by the government. We signed the deal for better price, better than earlier," he said.*

A joint statement issued after Modi-Hollande talks had said the two leaders agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be "better" than that conveyed as part of a separate process underway.

It was an apparent reference to the talks that kicked off in 2012 for the sale of 126 Rafale fighter jets for 12 billion USD. The deal had been bogged down over cost and Dassault Aviation's reluctance to stand guarantee for 108 planes to be made by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

Talking about various initiatives taken by his ministry in the last one year, Parrikar said, "One Rank-One Pension (OROP) proposal is reaching finality."

Asked about CAG's report on India's battle-readiness, he said,"The report about India?s low preparedness to fight the war is old one, dating back to March 2013. After that we have improved our preparedness by almost 50 per cent."

About the government auditor's contention that India's ammunition stock would not last even a few days in the event of a war, Parrikar said, ordnance production had also improved over the past year.

He said the Defence Ministry has delisted 65 per cent of the items, making them free for manufacturing and export.

The minister said the impact of raising FDI limit in defence to 49 per cent will also be seen in the years to come.

PTI


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## Hindustani78

Updated: May 17, 2015 03:56 IST
Talks on Rafale to begin soon: Parrikar - The Hindu

A committee headed by Air Marshal S.B.P. Sinha is all set to begin government-to-government negotiations with France for procurement of Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force, and the multi-billion dollar deal will be finalised as early as possible, Union Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said on Saturday.

“The committee set up on May 13 will begin negotiations on the deal any time as a French delegation has arrived in India to hold negotiations,” Mr Parrikar said. Prime Minister Narendra Modi during his visit to France last month had signed an agreement to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets for over $6 billion.

*Proposals cleared*
Speaking about the achievements of the Defence Ministry, Mr. Parrikar said that Capital Acquisition proposals of Rs.1,60,000 crore, which were blocked for years, had been cleared.

*Make in India initiative*
He said that under the Make in India initiativc, the government had allowed 65 per cent licence-free manufacturing and exports. FDI in Defence has been increased to 49 per cent.

In the Defence sector, he said, the government would emphasise indigenisation in manufacturing. Ordinance factory production had already shown improvement, he said.

*Mr. Parrikar said Tejas, the light combat aircraft, would undergo final flight testing next month, observing that ‘Make in India’ was a long-term solution for improving the strength of the IAF.*


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## IND151

French team in India to negotiate Rafale deal | idrw.org


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## Hindustani78

Dassault to double Rafale output in 2-3 years if India buys - The Economic Times
By Reuters | 18 May, 2015, 04.14PM IST 

GENEVA: *Dassault Aviation will double production of its Rafale combat jet within two to three years once it has completed a forthcoming contract to sell the planes to India*, its chief executive said on Monday. 

The French planemaker is also in talks with several other countries including Malaysia, after recently winning its first export contracts with Egypt and Qatar, CEO Eric Trappier added. 

He was speaking to Reuters at the EBACE business jet exhibition outside Geneva. 

Trappier last week said Dassault would increase production of the Rafale if it signs a third export contract but did not give a timeframe. 

It currently* produces 11 Rafales a year. *

India has pledged to order 36 of the planes directly from the French government after talks stalled with Dassault over a larger deal.

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## Techy

*Planemaker Dassault to double Rafale output in 2-3 years if India buys*






_Trappier last week said Dassault would increase production of the Rafale if it signs a third export contract but did not give a timeframe. _





Reuters/Regis Duvignau/Files

Dassault Aviation will double production of its Rafale combat jet within two to three years of the completion of a planned sale to India, its chief executive said on Monday.

The maker of combat and business jets is also in talks on potential fighter sales with several other countries including Malaysia, after recently winning its first export contracts for the Rafale with Egypt and Qatar, CEO Eric Trappier added.

He was speaking to Reuters at the EBACE business jet exhibition outside Geneva.

Trappier last week said Dassault would increase production of the Rafale if it signs a third export contract but it did not give a timeframe.

It currently produces 11 Rafales a year.

Trappier said it would be feasible to lift output as high as 2.5 aircraft a month in order to meet future export demand.

India has pledged to order 36 of the planes directly from the French government after talks stalled with Dassault over a larger deal.

Trappier said he hoped the govenment-to-government contract would be finalised this year, adding: "Once the India contract is signed we will double production in two to three years."

Trappier also signalled a period of stability at French defence firm Thales, which has been disrupted by a series of management changes.

Last week, Thales confirmed the company's chief executive and temporary chairman Patrice Caine in the combined roles of CEO and chairman after former utilities chief Henri Proglio refused to accept the chairmanship.

Trappier said there were no plans to revert to the previous proposal of splitting the two roles, which had been designed to reconcile differences between core shareholders Dassault and the French government over who should run Thales.

Trappier also said Dassault intends to remain a shareholder in Thales for the long term, but does not seek a majority stake, something that would require a new shareholder pact.

"The less we talk to the government, the better things go as far as that subject is concerned," he said.

Dassault owns 25.3 percent of Europe's largest defence electronics group and has a shareholder pact with the French government, which owns 26.4 percent.

Planemaker Dassault to double Rafale output in 2-3 years if India buys| Reuters

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## sancho

Hindustani78 said:


> *Dassault Aviation will double production of its Rafale combat jet within two to three years once it has completed a forthcoming contract to sell the planes to India*, its chief executive said on Monday.



So much for the dreams of getting 2 squads in 2 years and even worse, more fighters from their lines means higher chance for the final death of MMRCA.

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## PARIKRAMA

Well i remember reading somewhere that negotiations would be completed within 90 days from the day of PM Modi expressing interest to buy 36 jets from France in fly away condition..
Now looking at so called so many meetings and empowered group setup etc, i am not sure about 90 days roadmap.. (90 days are to be over in mid of June 2015). 
The whole deal with Dassault and so called offsets at 50% all looks very odd. No clarity if a made in India component is there too. Going by the way of simple logic, 50% offset is possible if and only if GOI had already committed another 36 or more follow on order under off the shelf purchases. Unless French government pushes the Dassault to adhere to these terms with just 36 ..
Interestingly, what would be the difference in fine terms between offset 50% under MMRCA and offset 50% under off the shelf purchase? Will the critical tech sharing pact is same in both? Logic says cant be as price would shoot up but then again if its there then it would be a nice surprise.. 

Wish DM MP could give more clarity but i guess he is now himself meddled in a vortex called Rafale deal irrespective of MMRCA or Off the shelf....


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## I M Sikander

Considering 11jets each year and orders from malaysia, egypt and qatar.
It clearly means that completion time of Indian jets will be some thing around 2019 to 2020.


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## Agent_47

Separately, Parrikar stated clearly for the first time that the 36 Rafale fighters that Prime Minister Narendra Modi requested the French government for during his visit to Paris last month *would not be followed by more Rafales. Instead, the money saved by curtailing the Rafale contract would be used to buy large numbers of the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).*

“By buying 36 Rafale fighters at a price less than (what was quoted in response to) the earlier tender for 126 aircraft, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales. *We will use that money to buy Tejas LCAs*”, said Parrikar.

This will address the concerns of aerospace experts, who had questioned the plan to buy 126 Rafales (six squadrons) to take the place of MiG-21 squadrons retiring from service this decade. It has been argued that the Rafale is too heavy, expensive and capable to replace a cheap, light, utility fighter like the MiG-21.

*“The Rafale is not meant to replace the MiG-21”, said Parrikar, stating that he would instead buy large numbers of Tejas fighters, which he said would come cheap at a price of around Rs 150 crore each.*

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## PARIKRAMA

@sancho @Abingdonboy
our big mouthed DM MP finally said a statement - Rafale 36 only-- and that also under negotiations (god knows for how long again)
No logic anywhere for such a small number but then again ...
it sgood money saved is used in LCA program but is the goal of putting money from one pocket to another sensible.. We need LCAs surely.. but with just 36 rafale whats the point.. better we could have invested that also in LCA program and perhaps a second line of production for LCA only ...


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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> @sancho @Abingdonboy
> our big mouthed DM MP finally said a statement - Rafale 36 only-- and that also under negotiations (god knows for how long again)
> No logic anywhere for such a small number but then again ...
> it sgood money saved is used in LCA program but is the goal of putting money from one pocket to another sensible.. We need LCAs surely.. but with just 36 rafale whats the point.. better we could have invested that also in LCA program and perhaps a second line of production for LCA only ...



India will definitely buy more 

The defence minister is just talking for the sake showing committment to Tejas and Make in India

IAF has never wasted resources for the sake of buying just 36 planes

Once an investment is made ; it lasts for several decades 

Most likely we will go for additional off the shelf purchases

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## Agent_47

Stephen Cohen said:


> India will definitely buy more
> 
> The defence minister is just talking for the sake showing committment to Tejas and Make in India
> 
> IAF has never wasted resources for the sake of buying just 36 planes
> 
> Once an investment is made ; it lasts for several decades
> 
> Most likely we will go for additional off the shelf purchases


That was my thinking too, otherwise it doesn't make sense. maintenance cost,training,logistics cost all will be higher.

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## saurav

Nice... 2 Squads for specific missions. More money to develop workhorse Tejas.. Good plan..


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## IND151

*By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 22nd May 15*

In a statement that will create ripples across the border, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar declared today that India should counter Pakistan-backed cross-border terror attacks with terrorism directed back at Pakistan.

Speaking at the Aaj Tak Manthan conclave in New Delhi on Thursday, Parrikar dropped his bombshell in response to a question about how India would react to another Mumbai-type 26/11 terror attack.

“Rather than reacting to a repeat of 26/11, it would be better not to let such an attack happen. Whatever we have to do, whether it is diplomatic, pressure tactics, or using a thorn to extract a thorn (kaante se kaanta nikalna)”, answered Parrikar.

“We have to use terrorists to neutralize terrorists”, he elaborated, to applause from the audience.

“(Is this the) first time an Indian Defence Minister has hinted at covert response to terror attack?” tweeted Sandeep Unnithan, Associate Editor at India Today, who was in the audience.

Pakistan consistently claims that Indian-backed terrorism is responsible for the unsettled state of Baluchistan, a claim that India vehemently rejects. In July 2009, after a meeting between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his Pakistani counterpart, Yousef Raza Gilani at Sharm-el-Sheikh, Egypt, the joint statement a mentioned Baluchistan and recognized terrorism as the “chief threat” to both countries, leading to Bharatiya Janata Party leaders accusing the government of undermining India’s position by equating the victim with the perpetrator.

Separately, Parrikar stated clearly for the first time that the 36 Rafale fighters that Prime Minister Narendra Modi requested the French government for during his visit to Paris last month would not be followed by more Rafales. Instead, the money saved by curtailing the Rafale contract would be used to buy large numbers of the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

“By buying 36 Rafale fighters at a price less than (what was quoted in response to) the earlier tender for 126 aircraft, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales. We will use that money to buy Tejas LCAs”, said Parrikar.

This will address the concerns of aerospace experts, who had questioned the plan to buy 126 Rafales (six squadrons) to take the place of MiG-21 squadrons retiring from service this decade. It has been argued that the Rafale is too heavy, expensive and capable to replace a cheap, light, utility fighter like the MiG-21.

“The Rafale is not meant to replace the MiG-21”, said Parrikar, stating that he would instead buy large numbers of Tejas fighters, which he said would come cheap at a price of around Rs 150 crore each.

The Indian Air Force (IAF), which currently has 34 fighter squadrons against an assessed requirement of 42 squadrons, will lose during this decade another 7-9 squadrons of MiG-21s and MiG-27s that have already exceeded their service lives.

Yet, the IAF has ordered o just 20 Tejas fighters (one squadron) from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), with an additional order of 20 more promised after the fighter achieves final operational clearance, expected in early 2016.

Asked whether he was satisfied with the Tejas’ performance, the defence minister replied he was “satisfied to a certain level”. The IAF had accorded performance waivers while giving initial operational clearance to the Tejas, but Parrikar pointed out that none of the waivers affected flight safety.

Asked whether he would deliver on his promise to appoint a tri-service Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) within two months, Parrikar backpedalled somewhat. “By June-end, my proposal will be ready. But it is not my decision _per se_. It has to go before the National Security Council”, he said.

Broadsword: Parrikar: “We have to use terrorists to neutralize terrorists”


----------



## monitor

Air Platforms
*Indian defence minister draws line at 36 Rafales*
*Rahul Bedi, New Delhi* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
21 May 2015





India's defence minister has said Delhi will not buy more than the 36 Dassault Rafales. Credit: Dassault
*Key Points*

India's defence minister has said Delhi will not buy more than the 36 Dassault Rafales to which it committed in April
The announcement confirms the end of the MMRCA tender and the government's commitment to the Tejas LCA programme
India will neither licence-build additional Dassault Rafale fighters nor acquire more than the 36 it recently agreed to buy in flyaway condition, the country's Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said on 21 May.

In multiple interviews to TV channels to mark the completion of the government's first year in office, Parrikar said the money India had saved by acquiring 90 fewer Rafales would be diverted to buying 200-odd indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

"By buying 36 Rafales instead of 126, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales," Parrikar said, adding that this amount was around INR900 billion (USD15.51 billion). "We will use this money to buy Tejas LCA priced at around INR1.5 billion each," he added.

The LCA will replace 10 to 12 MiG-21 and MiG-27 squadrons to be retired from 2022 onwards, he said.

Parrikar declined to reveal the cost of the 36 Rafales, whose purchase Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced in Paris on 10 April and which are presently the subject of negotiations. He did, however, confirm that the contract includes a 50% offset obligation.

India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) had been in negotiations with Dassault since 2012 to acquire 126 Rafales in support of the Indian Air Force (IAF) requirement for medium multirole combat aircraft.

Of these, 18 were to have been bought off the shelf and 108 licence-built by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd in Bangalore.

Meanwhile, preliminary investigations indicate engine problems could have resulted in an IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighter crashing in Assam state on 19 May, official sources said. The crash was the sixth such incident involving an IAF Su-30 since the aircraft entered Indian service in 1997.

A court of inquiry into the accident is under way. Both pilots ejected safely from the fighter, which was on a routine sortie from Tezpur's Salonibari base but developed "technical problems" shortly after taking off, sources said.

In March Parrikar told parliament that the Su-30 fleet was plagued by "engine failure in air and engine-related problems" and that the IAF had documented 35 problems with the Saturn Al-31Fp powerpack.

Russian officials, however, deny such problems and attribute all six of the IAF's Su-30 accidents to "human error": an assessment with which the IAF strongly disagrees.

The IAF has inducted around 200 of 272 Su-30s acquired for more than USD12 billion.

*Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to all our insight content, please enquire about our subscription options **ihs.com/contact*



To read the full article, Client Login
(448 of 509 words)

some relieve for Pakistan ?


----------



## graphican

monitor said:


> Air Platforms
> *Indian defence minister draws line at 36 Rafales*
> *Rahul Bedi, New Delhi* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 21 May 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India's defence minister has said Delhi will not buy more than the 36 Dassault Rafales. Credit: Dassault
> *Key Points*
> 
> India's defence minister has said Delhi will not buy more than the 36 Dassault Rafales to which it committed in April
> The announcement confirms the end of the MMRCA tender and the government's commitment to the Tejas LCA programme
> India will neither licence-build additional Dassault Rafale fighters nor acquire more than the 36 it recently agreed to buy in flyaway condition, the country's Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said on 21 May.
> 
> In multiple interviews to TV channels to mark the completion of the government's first year in office, Parrikar said the money India had saved by acquiring 90 fewer Rafales would be diverted to buying 200-odd indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).
> 
> "By buying 36 Rafales instead of 126, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales," Parrikar said, adding that this amount was around INR900 billion (USD15.51 billion). "We will use this money to buy Tejas LCA priced at around INR1.5 billion each," he added.
> 
> The LCA will replace 10 to 12 MiG-21 and MiG-27 squadrons to be retired from 2022 onwards, he said.
> 
> Parrikar declined to reveal the cost of the 36 Rafales, whose purchase Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced in Paris on 10 April and which are presently the subject of negotiations. He did, however, confirm that the contract includes a 50% offset obligation.
> 
> India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) had been in negotiations with Dassault since 2012 to acquire 126 Rafales in support of the Indian Air Force (IAF) requirement for medium multirole combat aircraft.
> 
> Of these, 18 were to have been bought off the shelf and 108 licence-built by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd in Bangalore.
> 
> Meanwhile, preliminary investigations indicate engine problems could have resulted in an IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighter crashing in Assam state on 19 May, official sources said. The crash was the sixth such incident involving an IAF Su-30 since the aircraft entered Indian service in 1997.
> 
> A court of inquiry into the accident is under way. Both pilots ejected safely from the fighter, which was on a routine sortie from Tezpur's Salonibari base but developed "technical problems" shortly after taking off, sources said.
> 
> In March Parrikar told parliament that the Su-30 fleet was plagued by "engine failure in air and engine-related problems" and that the IAF had documented 35 problems with the Saturn Al-31Fp powerpack.
> 
> Russian officials, however, deny such problems and attribute all six of the IAF's Su-30 accidents to "human error": an assessment with which the IAF strongly disagrees.
> 
> The IAF has inducted around 200 of 272 Su-30s acquired for more than USD12 billion.
> 
> *Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to all our insight content, please enquire about our subscription options **ihs.com/contact*
> 
> 
> 
> To read the full article, Client Login
> (448 of 509 words)
> 
> some relieve for Pakistan ?



You are never relived against enemy. If India develops a strategy, we will develop a counter strategy as survival is not optional.


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## monitor

graphican said:


> You are never relived against enemy. If India develops a strategy, we will develop a counter strategy as survival is not optional.



relived in the sens that earlier you had the chance to face 126 rafale now 36 only so some breathing for PAF .


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## I M Sikander

monitor said:


> relived in the sens that earlier you had the chance to face 126 rafale now 36 only so some breathing for PAF .


Its thge other easy around, finally 36 jets for iaf after a decade long process.
Carry on with such stupidities, we simply don't mind.


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## Abingdonboy

monitor said:


> relived in the sens that earlier you had the chance to face 126 rafale now 36 only so some breathing for PAF .


Still don't have an answer to 272+ Su-30MKIs though......


+ More than 36 Rafales are coming, that is a fact. Anyone believing it would be 36 all told is being absurdly foolish.

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## Abingdonboy

Prasun K. Sengupta's take on this matter which seems pretty rational:
_
All it takes for the Indian component of cyberspace to go into a senseless tizzy is for a ‘Bandalbaaz’ masquerading as a journalist to highlight selected quotes from a certain Minister’s interaction during a media conclave, and draw spectacularly outrageous conclusions. This in turn gets to be ‘assumed’ as being the gospel truth, with the end-result being a classic case of the blind leading the blind. Take, for instance, the following two selective quotes that originated 48 hours ago: 

“By buying 36 Rafales instead of 126, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales,” Parrikar said, adding that this amount was around Rs.900 billion (US$15.51 billion). “We will use this money to buy Tejas LCA pricedat around Rs.1.5 billion each,” he added. 

“By buying 36 Rafales at a price less than (what was quoted in response to) the earlier tender for 126aircraft, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales. We will use that money to buy Tejas LCAs”._
_

_
_Now here’s what it all means. Under the original M-MRCA procurement process for an initial 126 Dassault Aviation Rafales, the first 18 (12 single-seaters and six tandem-seaters) were to be acquired in flyable condition off-the-shelf, for which the Ministry of Defence (MoD) would have had to pay only the acquisition costs and related support infrastructure costs. For the remaining 108 Rafales that were to be licence-built in India (74 single-seaters and 34 tandem-seaters of which 11 were be built from semi-knocked down or SKD kits, 31 from completely knocked down or CKD kits, and 66 made from indigenously manufactured kits or IMK), the MoD would have been required to fork out A) the industrial production costs (for setting up the domestic industrial infrastructure and training a skilled pool of human resources); B) acquisition costs that were to be paid to the MoD-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL); and C) support infrastructure costs for creating the squadron-level and intermediate-level MRO facilities. _
_

_
_Now that the original scheme for procuring 126 Rafales has been abandoned, the MoD will, under Phase-1, be required to pay only the acquisition costs and related support infrastructure costs for the first 36 Rafales. Under Phase-2, an industrial consortium comprising Dassault Aviation and its Indian counterparts from both the private-sector and public-sector will supply up to 171 (108 + 63) locally-assembled Rafales. This consortium—to be dominated by the private-sector—will raise the necessary funding required (for creating the domestic industrial infrastructure and training a skilled pool of human resources) entirely from the capital markets, and will charge the MoD only for the fleet acquisition cost. In other words, the MoD’s Department of Defence Production & Supplies will no longer be required to foot the bill for industrial production costs of the 171 Rafales. _
_

_
_
Consequently, this enormous pool of money saved will be invested in R & D activities for the Indian Air Force’s Tejas Mk2 MRCA and the Indian Navy’s LCA (Navy) Mk2. Since both these MRCAs will be brand-new designs, at least five flying prototypes for each type will be required to be built, and each type--Tejas Mk2 and LCA (Navy) Mk2—will be required to undergo at least 2,000 hours of flight-tests before they are awarded their respective airworthiness certifications. For all intents and purposes, these are herculean tasks that require substantial R & D funding-levels,_

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## ziaulislam

Abingdonboy said:


> Still don't have an answer to 272+ Su-30MKIs though......
> 
> 
> + More than 36 Rafales are coming, that is a fact. Anyone believing it would be 36 all told is being absurdly foolish.


i know your defense *minister is lying*, there are more Rafales coming.
also private sector knows that by spending billions of dollars in setting up manufacturing base they would get all investment back as India and many other contries have advance orders


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## The Great One (Mod ver)

ziaulislam said:


> i know your defense *minister is lying*, there are more Rafales coming.
> also private sector knows that by spending billions of dollars in setting up manufacturing base they would get all investment back as India and many other contries have advance orders


He is not lying. He is being mis-represented. He only talks of present order, but media tries to potray that we'll not have any more planes and 36 is final order.

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## Donatello

The Great One (Mod ver) said:


> He is not lying. He is being mis-represented. He only talks of present order, but media tries to potray that we'll not have any more planes and 36 is final order.



He said India will not license produce any jets. The current 36 order ones weren't supposed to be license produced anyway, so he must be referring to the expected 126/90 aircraft order beyond the 36 confirmed.

The problem is that Indian media and fanboys made such a mountain out of this procurement, that it turned into a joke. So in order to save face with France, India is like let's go for something that French will consider decent enough, so order 36 jets...........



IND151 said:


> *By Ajai Shukla
> Business Standard, 22nd May 15*
> 
> In a statement that will create ripples across the border, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar declared today that India should counter Pakistan-backed cross-border terror attacks with terrorism directed back at Pakistan.
> 
> Speaking at the Aaj Tak Manthan conclave in New Delhi on Thursday, Parrikar dropped his bombshell in response to a question about how India would react to another Mumbai-type 26/11 terror attack.
> 
> “Rather than reacting to a repeat of 26/11, it would be better not to let such an attack happen. Whatever we have to do, whether it is diplomatic, pressure tactics, or using a thorn to extract a thorn (kaante se kaanta nikalna)”, answered Parrikar.
> 
> “We have to use terrorists to neutralize terrorists”, he elaborated, to applause from the audience.
> 
> “(Is this the) first time an Indian Defence Minister has hinted at covert response to terror attack?” tweeted Sandeep Unnithan, Associate Editor at India Today, who was in the audience.
> 
> Pakistan consistently claims that Indian-backed terrorism is responsible for the unsettled state of Baluchistan, a claim that India vehemently rejects. In July 2009, after a meeting between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his Pakistani counterpart, Yousef Raza Gilani at Sharm-el-Sheikh, Egypt, the joint statement a mentioned Baluchistan and recognized terrorism as the “chief threat” to both countries, leading to Bharatiya Janata Party leaders accusing the government of undermining India’s position by equating the victim with the perpetrator.
> 
> Separately, Parrikar stated clearly for the first time that the 36 Rafale fighters that Prime Minister Narendra Modi requested the French government for during his visit to Paris last month would not be followed by more Rafales. Instead, the money saved by curtailing the Rafale contract would be used to buy large numbers of the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).
> 
> “*By buying 36 Rafale fighters at a price less than (what was quoted in response to) the earlier tender for 126 aircraft, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales. We will use that money to buy Tejas LCAs”, said Parrikar.*
> 
> This will address the concerns of aerospace experts, who had questioned the plan to buy 126 Rafales (six squadrons) to take the place of MiG-21 squadrons retiring from service this decade. It has been argued that the Rafale is too heavy, expensive and capable to replace a cheap, light, utility fighter like the MiG-21.
> 
> “The Rafale is not meant to replace the MiG-21”, said Parrikar, stating that he would instead buy large numbers of Tejas fighters, which he said would come cheap at a price of around Rs 150 crore each.
> 
> The Indian Air Force (IAF), which currently has 34 fighter squadrons against an assessed requirement of 42 squadrons, will lose during this decade another 7-9 squadrons of MiG-21s and MiG-27s that have already exceeded their service lives.
> 
> Yet, the IAF has ordered o just 20 Tejas fighters (one squadron) from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), with an additional order of 20 more promised after the fighter achieves final operational clearance, expected in early 2016.
> 
> Asked whether he was satisfied with the Tejas’ performance, the defence minister replied he was “satisfied to a certain level”. The IAF had accorded performance waivers while giving initial operational clearance to the Tejas, but Parrikar pointed out that none of the waivers affected flight safety.
> 
> Asked whether he would deliver on his promise to appoint a tri-service Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) within two months, Parrikar backpedalled somewhat. “By June-end, my proposal will be ready. But it is not my decision _per se_. It has to go before the National Security Council”, he said.
> 
> Broadsword: Parrikar: “We have to use terrorists to neutralize terrorists”



So i guess that explains it very well.......they are spending the money budgeted for 90/126 jets on other projects.

India won't be able to replace Mig21/27 before 2022......only 36 rafale coming.........so the dream of a 42 squadron airforce goes in to 2030s.


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## Storm Force

India will not get 40 sqds until their gdp climbs to top four which is occupied by germany.

Most forecasts expect that to happen after 2025 but before 2030


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## halloweene

Sorry friends seems there is an internal politics problem in India and i wouldn't like to interfere...
Specially at @sancho


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## PARIKRAMA

halloweene said:


> Sorry friends seems there is an internal politics problem in India and i wouldn't like to interfere...
> Specially at @sancho


LOng time @halloweene . So whats the latest? Seems fighter numbers -36 or more, offset 50%, no clarity on secondary make in India part for say a deal size equaling MMRCA (if any)?? 36 contratc signing is still under negotiations ....

Whats you hearing on all this?


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## halloweene

PARIKRAMA said:


> LOng time @halloweene . So whats the latest? Seems fighter numbers -36 or more, offset 50%, no clarity on secondary make in India part for say a deal size equaling MMRCA (if any)?? 36 contratc signing is still under negotiations ....
> 
> Whats you hearing on all this?


Absolutely nothing except on "we are confident"... Frustrating.

Apart from that, seen Egyptians pilots under formation.

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## Donatello

So it seems, the defense minister has said they are buying only 36 and no more. All this Drama comes to an end.

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## Hindustani78

No need for 126 Rafales, NDA will buy only 36: Parrikar
New Delhi, May 31, 2015, (PTI):

*Terming the UPA's proposed deal for 126 Rafale fighter jets as "economically unviable" and not required, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has said the NDA government will buy only 36 of the French aircraft, to be used for strategic purposes, and no more.*

Parrikar also raised questions on the tendering process initiated by former Defence Minister A K Antony and said his predecessor had "hammered" the tender in such a way that the Rafale deal would have never seen the light of the day.

Rejecting criticism from the Congress that Prime Minister Narendra Modi had bypassed the Finance Ministry and the Defence Acquisition Council, the apex body of the Defence Ministry that takes the call on military projects, *Parrikar said "the deal is yet to be inked" and they should hold their horses till the process was complete.*

He expressed confidence that the Committee, that has been set up to work out the contract, would complete the task in the next 2-3 months. The Modi government has scrapped the over USD 20 billion deal for 126 Rafales more than three years after Dassault was declared the lowest bidder under UPA's tenure.

During his visit to France last month, the Prime Minister announced the decision to buy 36 of these jets in a fly-away condition under a government-to-government (G2G) contract. * Parrikar underlined that the decision to acquire 36 Rafales came in view of the "urgent requirement" of Indian Air Force.*

*"We are not buying the rest. We are only buying the direct 36," *Parrikar told PTI when asked what will happen to rest of the requirement. He said that the UPA deal for 126 Rafales was way too expensive and it would have hampered other modernisation plans of the Indian military.

*The deal would have required around Rs 1.3 lakh crore over a period of 10-11 years, he added. "Would there be any money for any other work?" he asked. "I also feel like having a BMW and Mercedes. But I don't because I can't afford it. First I can't afford it and second I don't need it. So, 126 Rafales was economically unviable. It was not required," *Parrikar said. 

Attacking Antony over the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft tendering process, Parrikar said that his UPA predecessor had "hammered" the tender in such a way that the Rafales would have never seen the light of day.

He also wondered why Antony was trying to force the French firm Dassault Aviation, manufacturer of the Rafale, to come back to him even after it was selected as the lowest bidder.

"After L1 was determined, he said go ahead with cost negotiations and, after negotiations are complete, go back and check on methodology of L1, whether it was correct or not?

"Why did it happen? There are only two reasons. You are forcing your supplier to come back to you. What is the reason? He (Antony) should answer," Parrikar said refusing to elaborate further.

The minister underlined that* Rafales are not a replacement for MiG-21s. *He said that the *MiGs would be replaced by the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft.* Explaining the strike capability of the Rafales and the kind of weapons it is fitted with, Parrikar said the* French fighter jet was a "deep-striking fourth generation plus" aircraft.*

Asked if the Rafale deal meant that the Modi government will only go through G2G deals for strategic assets in defence, Parrikar said the Defence Procurement Procedure does not prevent the government from using the G2G route.

"That Rafale deal (MMRCA) of his (Antony) through RFP would have never seen the light of the day. Wherever there is a need of defence of this country, I will not hesitate to advise the Prime Minister to go for government-to-government deal," he said.


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## rockstarIN

Hindustani78 said:


> *NDA government will buy only 36 of the French aircraft, to be used for strategic purposes, and no more.*



I hope it is not for the Strategic command for nuke deliveries!


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## Hindustani78

rockstarIN said:


> I hope it is not for the Strategic command for nuke deliveries!








*French Rafale F3 shown carrying an ASMP-A ( Nuclear capable Cruise missiles ) in the center of the aircraft.*


France uses Nuclear air-launched cruise missile; Air-Sol Moyenne Portée (ASMP) to deliver singular variable yield ‘TN 81’ Nuke warhead which will be replaced by new cruise missile which will have (TNA) 200 kT warhead. French airforce has Dassault Mirage 2000N and Rafale, fighter jets which have been deputed for Air delivered Nukes.

When it comes to India.

IAF’s Sukhoi-30 can also carry Indian nukes, but Experts say that that job has been reserved for Mirage-2000 aircrafts in IAF for some time now and will remain so till it is replaced by a better jet.


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## Superboy

Is the deal signed yet?


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## Hindustani78

Dassault Aviation upbeat on Rafale, rolls out Falcon 5X | Zee News

Last Updated: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 - 18:00

Bordeaux: *The head of Dassault Aviation said on Tuesday he had not given up hope of selling extra Rafales to India on top of a deal for 36 aircraft being negotiated by the French government.*


Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi last month announced plans to buy 36 Rafales under a government-to-government contract with France, leaving doubts over the status of earlier plans to buy 126 planes, including 18 to be built in France. 

*"We`ll see about the second stage and how that evolves once the contract for 36 has been signed," Dassault Chief Executive Eric Trappier said at the rollout of a new business jet.*

*"I am not disappointed to drop from 126 to 36 planes, because the way I look at it, we are going up from 18 to 36," he told reporters, referring to the aircraft to be assembled at Dassault`s own production line at Merignac, southwest France.*

*"We know that the Indian Air Force`s needs far exceed 36 planes,"* he added.

India has rowed back from the commitment of the last government to buy 126 Rafales, saying the twin-engined planes -- which would be able to fly over the Himalayas with a full weapons payload -- would be too expensive.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was quoted on Sunday as saying the original planned purchase was "economically unviable" and that India would not buy the remaining aircraft.

Trappier said Dassault Aviation hoped to win a fourth Rafale export contract this year after landing contracts in Egypt and Qatar, as well as the planned purchases of 36 planes from India.

He was speaking as Dassault showed off its second new business jet in six months, with an unveiling ceremony for the Falcon 5X.

The USD 45 million jet boasts the company`s largest business jet cabin and can carry up to 16 passengers.

It is expected to make its maiden flight in the summer and enter service in 2017 despite a delay in certifying its Safran Silvercrest engines.

Dassault is pitching it at clients in Asia and the Middle East and has already lined up "significant" orders, Trappier said.

The French company competes mainly with General Dynamics unit Gulfstream and Canada`s Bombardier for sales of business jets, which make up 73 percent of revenues.

It is predicting a dip in Falcon deliveries to 65 aircraft in 2015 from 66 in 2014, but expects demand to improve as the economy picks up in the United States, the world`s largest market for business jets.

Reuters


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## drunken-monke

Superboy said:


> Is the deal signed yet?


Lack of DSI is delaying it.. Could you help??


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## HRK

drunken-monke said:


> Lack of DSI is delaying it.. Could you help??



oh come on don't fall for an obsolete technology .... we send you a gift of our latest & most advance technology .... but rather to learn from it you people are just wasting it ......

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## drunken-monke

HRK said:


> oh come on don't fall for an obsolete technology .... we send you a gift of our latest & most advance technology .... but rather to learn from it you people are just wasting it ......


We tried it, but it does not suit us.. It gives results which suggest that it would only benefit Pakistanis.. Oh Fishh.....


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## HRK

drunken-monke said:


> We tried it, but it does not suit us.. It gives results which suggest that it would only benefit Pakistanis.. Oh Fishh.....



OK in that case "Hamara Kabootar Reha Karo" .......

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## IND151

Tendering Process In India’s Defence Procurement Contracts – Stay Awake Issues! | idrw.org



Hindustani78 said:


> Dassault Aviation upbeat on Rafale, rolls out Falcon 5X | Zee News
> 
> Last Updated: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 - 18:00
> 
> Bordeaux: *The head of Dassault Aviation said on Tuesday he had not given up hope of selling extra Rafales to India on top of a deal for 36 aircraft being negotiated by the French government.*
> 
> 
> Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi last month announced plans to buy 36 Rafales under a government-to-government contract with France, leaving doubts over the status of earlier plans to buy 126 planes, including 18 to be built in France.
> 
> *"We`ll see about the second stage and how that evolves once the contract for 36 has been signed," Dassault Chief Executive Eric Trappier said at the rollout of a new business jet.*
> 
> *"I am not disappointed to drop from 126 to 36 planes, because the way I look at it, we are going up from 18 to 36," he told reporters, referring to the aircraft to be assembled at Dassault`s own production line at Merignac, southwest France.*
> 
> *"We know that the Indian Air Force`s needs far exceed 36 planes,"* he added.
> 
> India has rowed back from the commitment of the last government to buy 126 Rafales, saying the twin-engined planes -- which would be able to fly over the Himalayas with a full weapons payload -- would be too expensive.
> 
> Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was quoted on Sunday as saying the original planned purchase was "economically unviable" and that India would not buy the remaining aircraft.
> 
> Trappier said Dassault Aviation hoped to win a fourth Rafale export contract this year after landing contracts in Egypt and Qatar, as well as the planned purchases of 36 planes from India.
> 
> He was speaking as Dassault showed off its second new business jet in six months, with an unveiling ceremony for the Falcon 5X.
> 
> The USD 45 million jet boasts the company`s largest business jet cabin and can carry up to 16 passengers.
> 
> It is expected to make its maiden flight in the summer and enter service in 2017 despite a delay in certifying its Safran Silvercrest engines.
> 
> Dassault is pitching it at clients in Asia and the Middle East and has already lined up "significant" orders, Trappier said.
> 
> The French company competes mainly with General Dynamics unit Gulfstream and Canada`s Bombardier for sales of business jets, which make up 73 percent of revenues.
> 
> It is predicting a dip in Falcon deliveries to 65 aircraft in 2015 from 66 in 2014, but expects demand to improve as the economy picks up in the United States, the world`s largest market for business jets.
> 
> Reuters





> India has rowed back from the commitment of the last government to buy 126 Rafales, saying the twin-engined planes -- which would be able to fly over the Himalayas with a full weapons payload





> *The head of Dassault Aviation said on Tuesday he had not given up hope of selling extra Rafales to India on top of a deal for 36 aircraft being negotiated by the French government.*



These parts of OP are important.


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## Hindustani78

HRK said:


> oh come on don't fall for an obsolete technology .... we send you a gift of our latest & most advance technology .... but rather to learn from it you people are just wasting it ......




Pigeons are use for spying and history is full of such cases.



HRK said:


> OK in that case "Hamara Kabootar Reha Karo" .......



So does the Pakistan Government accepts that its a carrier pigeon ?


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## HRK

Hindustani78 said:


> Pigeons are use for spying and history is full of such cases.



"*Ab pachtay kya hoot jab chidiya chug gayi khet*"



Hindustani78 said:


> So does the Pakistan Government accepts that its a carrier pigeon ?



are we really going to discuss this in 'Rafale thread' ....

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## Hindustani78

HRK said:


> "*Ab pachtay kya hoot jab chidiya chug gayi khet*"
> 
> 
> 
> are we really going to discuss this in 'Rafale thread' ....



Then why you have posted the picture in Rafale thread ?


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## HRK

Hindustani78 said:


> Then why you have posted the picture in Rafale thread ?



I hope you can read the post I replied with the pic you are objecting  .....

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## kaonalpha

1 of January 2nd Thread started on Indian Rafael Deal .Today 6th of June still no news. Tomorrow 1st of January Year 2025. Rafael deal still under discussion.

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## halloweene

Dont expect news before end of july. I'll try to get some hearsays at le Bourget.


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## PARIKRAMA

July seems to be also the time when PM Modi is in Russia for his visit and meeting.. Hearing Russians had explicitely said they also want some major purchases finalised to showcase they are India's primary partners. In short they want India to purchase Russian arms... Also it seems Putin had been mighty pleased with downsizing of Rafale deal and russian state offices are quick to point it as fallout of Mistral and India swinging its biggest order downsizing in response to Mistral fiasco.. BTW, Russians had thrown in everything for India to choose- New subs , new ships, new long ranged SAMs.. (S300/400), Armata platform, PAKFA program finalisation, Su35, etc etc .. The list is getting longer..

An important point is if the mentality of MOD and Indian PMO establishment is what DM Parrikkar said before about choices available in a shopping mart and affordability.. the chances of Russian arms increases especially the jets as its comparatively lower priced then western counterparts... Not comparing quality parameters atm of course. or the lifetime cost too.

@halloweene
Do you think Dassault can still swing the Indian order and perhaps a much bigger future order if
1. Dassault under French government orders participates in the LCA program sincerely
2. It can offer the M88-12 engine TOT package for the MK2 program and uprate it to meet IAF needs
3. It can also then try to corner the AMCA engine partner

The points 2 and 3 are direct counters to USA and GE program who are ready to assemble engines in their new plant in Pune, India for all such programs but India is wanting the full TOT..

4. Do you think only way forward would be the more participation in Indian programs in light platform (since Mirage is now no more in Dassault to do list)?
5. Any murmurs about the so called local JV with Indian companies for Make In India Initiative?
6. A news report came out few days back about Dassault keen on further 18 follow on orders making it 36+18=54 jets for India.. Is that all Dassault forsee as sale possibility wrt India? Does that mean the strategic evaluator in the board room believes the market for Dassault is very limited with customer India may be bcz of price?
7.Whats the ereal price now being offered for the 36 jets or whatever jets package.. the rumoured price of course negotiated with jet cost +weapons cost+after sales package? recent articles in Indian media seems to suggest a coterie of lobbyists and perhaps news reports are being used to defame Dassault wrt to price point. A certain Ajai Shukla in Business Standard column or our Bharat Karnad had been very vocal but Mr Shukla had ben very active with news reports about price and unfeasible proposition of Rafale and 36 deal by PM Modi.. So why not a bit more clarity to Indian press that these figures are bogus and quoted much higher to burst the baloon they are floating among Indian people and also enhance Dassault image thererby swinging public opinion.. (well honestly Dassault PR team seems too laid back to my much disliking.. a proper word which sounds to me better is LAZY.. lol). Dassault does much less to actually keep up in the propaganda warfare thereby always getting divided opinions or much negative fallouts..


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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> BTW, Russians had thrown in everything for India to choose- New subs , new ships, new long ranged SAMs.. (S300/400), Armata platform, PAKFA program finalisation, Su35, etc etc .. The list is getting longer..



We can hope for some good news on PAKFA and more Su 30 MKI 
ie upgraded ones

Armata will have to wait for at least five years till T 72 are to be replaced

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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> We can hope for some good news on PAKFA and more Su 30 MKI
> ie upgraded ones
> 
> Armata will have to wait for at least five years till T 72 are to be replaced


exactly my feelings brother..its too early to think Armata for India but then you never know whats in store really..
A substantial progress in PAKFA and Super30 program is really the need of the hour. Perhaps A new or better powerplant for Su30 MKI which can offer better hours in all front?

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## halloweene

PARIKRAMA said:


> July seems to be also the time when PM Modi is in Russia for his visit and meeting.. Hearing Russians had explicitely said they also want some major purchases finalised to showcase they are India's primary partners. In short they want India to purchase Russian arms... Also it seems Putin had been mighty pleased with downsizing of Rafale deal and russian state offices are quick to point it as fallout of Mistral and India swinging its biggest order downsizing in response to Mistral fiasco.. BTW, Russians had thrown in everything for India to choose- New subs , new ships, new long ranged SAMs.. (S300/400), Armata platform, PAKFA program finalisation, Su35, etc etc .. The list is getting longer..
> 
> An important point is if the mentality of MOD and Indian PMO establishment is what DM Parrikkar said before about choices available in a shopping mart and affordability.. the chances of Russian arms increases especially the jets as its comparatively lower priced then western counterparts... Not comparing quality parameters atm of course. or the lifetime cost too.
> 
> @halloweene
> Do you think Dassault can still swing the Indian order and perhaps a much bigger future order if
> 1. Dassault under French government orders participates in the LCA program sincerely
> 2. It can offer the M88-12 engine TOT package for the MK2 program and uprate it to meet IAF needs
> 3. It can also then try to corner the AMCA engine partner
> 
> The points 2 and 3 are direct counters to USA and GE program who are ready to assemble engines in their new plant in Pune, India for all such programs but India is wanting the full TOT..
> 
> 4. Do you think only way forward would be the more participation in Indian programs in light platform (since Mirage is now no more in Dassault to do list)?
> 5. Any murmurs about the so called local JV with Indian companies for Make In India Initiative?
> 6. A news report came out few days back about Dassault keen on further 18 follow on orders making it 36+18=54 jets for India.. Is that all Dassault forsee as sale possibility wrt India? Does that mean the strategic evaluator in the board room believes the market for Dassault is very limited with customer India may be bcz of price?
> 7.Whats the ereal price now being offered for the 36 jets or whatever jets package.. the rumoured price of course negotiated with jet cost +weapons cost+after sales package? recent articles in Indian media seems to suggest a coterie of lobbyists and perhaps news reports are being used to defame Dassault wrt to price point. A certain Ajai Shukla in Business Standard column or our Bharat Karnad had been very vocal but Mr Shukla had ben very active with news reports about price and unfeasible proposition of Rafale and 36 deal by PM Modi.. So why not a bit more clarity to Indian press that these figures are bogus and quoted much higher to burst the baloon they are floating among Indian people and also enhance Dassault image thererby swinging public opinion.. (well honestly Dassault PR team seems too laid back to my much disliking.. a proper word which sounds to me better is LAZY.. lol). Dassault does much less to actually keep up in the propaganda warfare thereby always getting divided opinions or much negative fallouts..



I'll do my best to get answers. As you guess it will be difficult, DA is quite a secrecive company and usually consider that communication is client's privilege. What i can say is Safran (maker of M-88) has scheduled a joint venture with an indian company (probably Bharat Forge). About cost, it is difficult. For example, the first Rafales for India would probably be horrendous. Because you need to set up maintenance, simulators, etc. etc. 

Ajai Shukla was denied a requested backseat flight on Rafale and since is hating DA. I wouldn't say he is dishonest, just i suppose he is hearing wrong sources and them only.

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## anant_s

halloweene said:


> What i can say is Safran (maker of M-88) has scheduled a joint venture with an indian company (probably Bharat Forge).


Can u please elaborate, if i get it right, this is for domestic manufacture/assembly of M 88 engines for Rafales touted for India or is there more to the agreement?


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## IND151

Sweden’s Gripen back on IAF’s radar for light combat planes | idrw.org


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## halloweene

anant_s said:


> Can u please elaborate, if i get it right, this is for domestic manufacture/assembly of M 88 engines for Rafales touted for India or is there more to the agreement?


I can't elaborate more, simply because i don't know more. But afaik your guess is correct.

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## IND151

*Diverging statements on India's Rafale buy

How many Rafales will the IAF buy?*

*Trappier*

“[The number] is under negotiation. The Indian Air Force needs many more than 36 planes. There is an immediate need for 36… They have an urgent operational requirement which does not allow time needed to set up the license [for production in India], so they asked for 36 quickly.”

*Parrikar*

On April 13 to Doordarshan: “It may be worked out that we will buy another 90 Rafales… The ‘Make in India’ part will be decided only after government-to-government talks”.

Later in the same interview: “We must remember that Rafale is a top-end, multi-role fighter… but it is quite expensive. When you talk of 126 aircraft, it becomes a purchase of about Rs 90,000 crore”.

At Aaj Tak Conclave on May 21: “By buying 36 Rafale fighters at a price less than the earlier tender for 126 aircraft, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales. We will use that money to buy Tejas LCAs”.



*How long for delivery?*

*Trappier*

“[The] production time — three years. That is quicker than building under license and completing the negotiations. The problem is not the three years. Buying 36 built in France will be faster than setting up complex production under license…”

“I hope [the 36-Rafale contract with] India will be signed by the end of the year. The decision to go to a sale on a government-to-government basis will help speed things up.”

*Parrikar*

On April 11 in Goa: Rafales will be delivered to the IAF within two years.

*Joint statement after Modi-Hollande meeting on April 10*

The delivery of 36 Rafales “would be in [a] time-frame that would be compatible with the operational requirement of the IAF”.



*Production schedule*

*Trappier*

“Today we are [building one Rafale] per month and we will stay at 11 [per year] for the next two or three years as the contracts signed with Egypt and Qatar can stand as substitutes for the French services. The big change comes when the third contract is signed, assuming the contract will be significant. For example, if we win the 36 for India, I will need to increase production. That depends on the Indian contract being signed.

“There will be zero delivery for the French [Air Force] from next year. There will effectively be a suspension — not a cancellation — with deliveries back again from 2020 after four years.”


*How much will the Rafale cost?*

*Trappier*

“I remember in [South] Korea the Rafale cost less than the F-15… The euro has fallen against the dollar, so the price of French planes has fallen against American planes… Today there is a mobilization of the French defense and foreign ministries, perhaps there was less in the past. There is a president's commitment toward export that goes back years, and the result is there. It's France that wins.”

*Joint statement after Modi-Hollande meeting on April 10*

Modi and Hollande “agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway…”

*Parrikar*

On May 26, to India Today TV: Rafale will cost less than what Dassault had quoted in its commercial bid in the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender. Dassault would also offer offsets worth 50 per cent of the contract cost.
Broadsword: Dassault chief speaks on Rafale sale to India, contradicts Parrikar on several aspects

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## sathya

Still all the niggles ...


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## Hindustani78

Rafale jet sale to India could be concluded in 2-3 months: French Defence Minister - The Economic Times
By Reuters | 16 Jun, 2015, 08.44PM IST 

LE BOURGET, FRANCE: India's purchase of 36 French Rafale military fighter jets could be concluded within two or three months, Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said on Tuesday. 

The deal, unveiled in India in April, came after manufacturer Dassault Aviation won its first export order for the jets in February from Egypt. Since then, Qatar has also placed an order and talks are under way with Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates. 

"I'll be going to India very soon to see how things are coming along, but I have no concerns it will happen," Le Drian said at the Paris Airshow.


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## Hindustani78

Rafale deal: French defence minister to visit India again | Zee News
Last Updated: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 13:18
New Delhi: French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will visit India soon as the two countries work towards finalising the deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets.

Defence sources said French Defence Minister is likely to arrive in India soon to carry forward the talks on the Rafale jets. They did not put a timeline to his visit.

Drian vistied India last month also.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had last month said that talks would be completed in "2-3 months".

Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced his decision to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets during a visit to France in April, a deal worth an estimated USD 8 billion.

The government has set up a committee headed by Air Marshal SB P Sinha who is undertaking the government-to-government negotiations with France for procurement of Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.

India has decided to buy only 36 Rafale fighter jets scrapping the earlier plan to acquire 126 of the French aircraft on grounds of huge cost.

Parrikar had termed as "economically unviable" the previous UPA government's USD 20 billion deal for purchase of the 126 Rafale fighter planes more than three years after France's Dassault Aviation was declared the lowest bidder.

He has said the UPA deal for 126 Rafales was way too expensive and it would have hampered other modernisation plans of the Indian military.

PTI

Rafale deal: French defence minister to visit India again | Zee News
Last Updated: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 13:18
New Delhi: French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will visit India soon as the two countries work towards finalising the deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets.

Defence sources said French Defence Minister is likely to arrive in India soon to carry forward the talks on the Rafale jets. They did not put a timeline to his visit.

Drian vistied India last month also.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had last month said that *talks would be completed in "2-3 months".*

Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced his decision to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets during a visit to France in April, a deal worth an estimated USD 8 billion.

The government has set up a committee headed by Air Marshal SB P Sinha who is undertaking the government-to-government negotiations with France for procurement of Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.

India has decided to buy only 36 Rafale fighter jets scrapping the earlier plan to acquire 126 of the French aircraft on grounds of huge cost.

Parrikar had termed as "economically unviable" the previous UPA government's *USD 20 billion deal for purchase of the 126 Rafale fighter planes more than three years* after France's Dassault Aviation was declared the lowest bidder.

He has said the UPA deal for 126 Rafales was way too expensive and it would have hampered other modernisation plans of the Indian military.

PTI


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## Hindustani78

25-06-2015
T Suvarna Raju, HAL chairman

About the Rafales yes, there were discussions earlier (of HAL's prominent role in the deal), but for the best interests of the nation, the government decided to directly acquire 36 aircraft in the initial setting.

*Don't you think private companies are stealing a march on HAL? Also, does HAL hope to get a pie out of the Dassault deal, when it is signed?*

Acquisitions and direct procurements have always been there. The government acquired 50 odd Mirage 2000s in the 1980s. And then we maintained them. That's where HAL steps in.

Possibly, Rafales will also need maintenance and HAL wouldn't be out of place to provide maintenance support to the aircraft. Some percentage of it will be with the frontline. The Air Force will do that. But there is an industrial support required and that's where we come in.


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## aftab_s81

IND151 said:


> Sweden’s Gripen back on IAF’s radar for light combat planes



Isn't this role meant for Tejas? Why Gripen then?


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## kurup

aftab_s81 said:


> Isn't this role meant for Tejas? Why Gripen then?



Yes and there will be no Gripen in IAF .... just a stupid reporting .


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## IND151

80 Rafale-type jets needed: IAF | idrw.org

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## air marshal

India caps Rafale buy [Combat Aircraft Monthly - August 2015]


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## PARIKRAMA

EXCLUSIVE The first Egyptian *Rafale* should be delivered in ten days

Les premiers Rafale égyptiens devraient être livrés dans une dizaine de jours - Defens'Aero

translated

*EXCLUSIVE!*

When signing the contract 5.3 billion between Jean-Yves Le Drian, Defense Minister, and Egypt, Monday, February 16, 2015, for the delivery of twenty four Rafale, including sixteen Rafale DM and EM eight Rafale to the Egyptian Air Force, the latter had requested that its first three Rafale were delivered before August so that it could scroll over the Suez Canal, August 5, at the inauguration of the enlargement of the canal work.

For this customer request is possible, it was necessary that the French Air Force agrees that three single seater Rafale, which were already being manufactured on the assembly lines Dassault Aviation, in Bordeaux-Merignac, do him are not delivered at their factory, but they are at the Egyptian Air Force.

To do this, Dassault Aviation and the Air Force have partnered to these two actors can meet the demand of Egypt. Therefore, Dassault Aviation has continued to rise three seater Rafale, now Egypt, taking into account in particular the removal of data and software for the implementation of the ASMP-A nuclear weapon, and software used for communications, given that Egypt is not part of NATO.

In parallel, the Air Force has received on the air base 118 of Mont-de-Marsan air base and 113 Saint-Dizier fighter pilots and Egyptian engineers to train so they can use independently, in a few months, their own Rafale on their own Egyptian air bases.

(Additional information, read the article: Future Egyptian Rafale fighter pilots are currently training in Mont-de-Marsan .)

These responsibilities, which weighed on all Dassault Aviation employees and the various staff of the Air Force, will be honored because according to my information, Dassault Aviation is expected to deliver the first three Rafale Egyptian DM in ten days.

This ceremony, although we do not yet know the precise location thereof, should certainly take place at the air base 125 of Istres, given that over the last few weeks of the test flights Egyptian Rafale were held on this basis.

Furthermore, and if not fuitent photographs on the web before the official ceremony, whether in the specialized media, an aerospace forum, etc ... This is the first time that we will see these three Rafale (B352 / 353/354) with Egyptian roundels.

Note that these twenty-four Rafale will be equipped with air-to-air missiles MICA cruise missile SCALP air-ground (called Black Shaheen for export version) and air-ground bombs AASM, developed by Sagem, and whose effectiveness has been demonstrated in Libya, Mali, and even today in Iraq.

+++++++++++++++++++

Egypt signed rafale contract and in another10 days getting delivery of first bird...
And we in India closed MMRCA and yet to sign even 36 order...talk about waste of time, and lost opportunities.. When we will ever learn

@Abingdonboy @DrSomnath999 @sancho

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> EXCLUSIVE The first Egyptian *Rafale* should be delivered in ten days
> 
> Les premiers Rafale égyptiens devraient être livrés dans une dizaine de jours - Defens'Aero
> 
> translated
> 
> *EXCLUSIVE!*
> 
> When signing the contract 5.3 billion between Jean-Yves Le Drian, Defense Minister, and Egypt, Monday, February 16, 2015, for the delivery of twenty four Rafale, including sixteen Rafale DM and EM eight Rafale to the Egyptian Air Force, the latter had requested that its first three Rafale were delivered before August so that it could scroll over the Suez Canal, August 5, at the inauguration of the enlargement of the canal work.
> 
> For this customer request is possible, it was necessary that the French Air Force agrees that three single seater Rafale, which were already being manufactured on the assembly lines Dassault Aviation, in Bordeaux-Merignac, do him are not delivered at their factory, but they are at the Egyptian Air Force.
> 
> To do this, Dassault Aviation and the Air Force have partnered to these two actors can meet the demand of Egypt. Therefore, Dassault Aviation has continued to rise three seater Rafale, now Egypt, taking into account in particular the removal of data and software for the implementation of the ASMP-A nuclear weapon, and software used for communications, given that Egypt is not part of NATO.
> 
> In parallel, the Air Force has received on the air base 118 of Mont-de-Marsan air base and 113 Saint-Dizier fighter pilots and Egyptian engineers to train so they can use independently, in a few months, their own Rafale on their own Egyptian air bases.
> 
> (Additional information, read the article: Future Egyptian Rafale fighter pilots are currently training in Mont-de-Marsan .)
> 
> These responsibilities, which weighed on all Dassault Aviation employees and the various staff of the Air Force, will be honored because according to my information, Dassault Aviation is expected to deliver the first three Rafale Egyptian DM in ten days.
> 
> This ceremony, although we do not yet know the precise location thereof, should certainly take place at the air base 125 of Istres, given that over the last few weeks of the test flights Egyptian Rafale were held on this basis.
> 
> Furthermore, and if not fuitent photographs on the web before the official ceremony, whether in the specialized media, an aerospace forum, etc ... This is the first time that we will see these three Rafale (B352 / 353/354) with Egyptian roundels.
> 
> Note that these twenty-four Rafale will be equipped with air-to-air missiles MICA cruise missile SCALP air-ground (called Black Shaheen for export version) and air-ground bombs AASM, developed by Sagem, and whose effectiveness has been demonstrated in Libya, Mali, and even today in Iraq.
> 
> +++++++++++++++++++
> 
> Egypt signed rafale contract and in another10 days getting delivery of first bird...
> And we in India closed MMRCA and yet to sign even 36 order...talk about waste of time, and lost opportunities.. When we will ever learn
> 
> @Abingdonboy @DrSomnath999 @sancho


That is somewhat annoying to see but one cannot lose sight of context.

The Egyptians got a package deal (including Rafales and Frigates) from the French GOVERNMENT for off the shelf procurements and that to of just 24 Rafales coming directly out of FrAF stocks/orders.


The Indian deal is VERY different and many, many times more complex involving industrial offsets and customisation as per IAF needs not to mention the GoI/MoD/IAF are almost certainly in talks for follow-on orders beyond the 36 figure (think 80-200) most likely to be built in India. We should see some progress and some finality with the IAF's Rafale deal within the next few weeks.



Comparing apples and oranges my friend.


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## IrbiS



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## Superboy

Is this the record that takes the longest time to sign a deal? Geez man when can the deal be signed? 2020?


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## SR-91

India Starts Talks With France on Rafale Jets Purchase | idrw.org






New Delhi and Paris have started negotiating on the terms and conditions of India’s purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France, Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar said Tuesday.

“A Negotiating Team has been constituted by the Government to negotiate the terms and conditions of the procurement of 36 Rafale jets and recommend the draft agreement. The meetings of the Indian Negotiating Team with the French team have commenced,” Parrikar said in a written reply to a question by a member of the upper house of the Indian Parliament.

In June, French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said that a deal on India’s purchase of French-made Rafale jets could be reached within the next two-three months. Eric Trappier, the head of the Rafale manufacturer Dassault Aviation, had earlier expressed hope that the deal would be finalized before the end of 2015.

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the agreement between his country and France on the purchase of 36 Rafale aircraft in April. Initially India planned to buy 126 Rafale jets.

The Dassault Rafale is a multirole fighter jet which can be used for reconnaissance and nuclear strike missions.


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## Superboy

SR-91 said:


> India Starts Talks With France on Rafale Jets Purchase | idrw.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Delhi and Paris have started negotiating on the terms and conditions of India’s purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France, Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar said Tuesday.
> 
> “A Negotiating Team has been constituted by the Government to negotiate the terms and conditions of the procurement of 36 Rafale jets and recommend the draft agreement. The meetings of the Indian Negotiating Team with the French team have commenced,” Parrikar said in a written reply to a question by a member of the upper house of the Indian Parliament.
> 
> In June, French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said that a deal on India’s purchase of French-made Rafale jets could be reached within the next two-three months. Eric Trappier, the head of the Rafale manufacturer Dassault Aviation, had earlier expressed hope that the deal would be finalized before the end of 2015.
> 
> Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the agreement between his country and France on the purchase of 36 Rafale aircraft in April. Initially India planned to buy 126 Rafale jets.
> 
> The Dassault Rafale is a multirole fighter jet which can be used for reconnaissance and nuclear strike missions.




Back to square one. The Rafale saga will last a century.


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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
21-July, 2015 13:33 IST 

*Progress on Rafale Fighter Aircraft Deal*

As per the India-France Joint Statement issued by the two countries during the Prime Minister’s visit to France, Government of India conveyed to the Government of France that in view of the critical operational necessity for Multirole Combat Aircraft for Indian Air Force (IAF), *Government of India would like to acquire (36) Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible.* The two leaders agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be *better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway, the delivery would be in time-frame that would be compatible with the operational requirement of IAF;* and that *the aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by Indian Air Force, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France. *

A Negotiating Team has been constituted to negotiate the terms and conditions of the procurement of 36 Rafale jets and recommend the draft agreement. *The meetings of the Indian Negotiating team with the French side have commenced. *

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Dr. R. Lakshmanan in Rajya Sabha today.

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## Blue Marlin

New Rafale deal stalled
​The Rafale deal, rescued by Prime Minister Narendra Modi when he visited France in April, has hit a government air pocket. India's insistence that France spend 50% of the value of the Rafale deal in Indian defence sector (called an offset requirement) and pricing issues have meant that India and France have missed the July target of finalising the agreement on purchasing 36 fighter jets.​Officials familiar with Rafale negotiations said higher political intervention may be required to hasten the process. 

hese officials did not want to be identified. While the old Rafale deal — buying 126 aircraft — has been cancelled, progress on buying 36 French jets is stalled because the French say spending 50% of the value of the deal in Indian defence sector will push up the total deal cost for India. The 36 Rafale jets were offered at just over $200 million each when the PM visited France in April, a price 25% lower than that offered to the UPA government.

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar, however, has been insisting on 50% offset (he told ET this in an interview published on May 11) and Indian negotiators have been asking for this as well. The French have argued 50% offset obligation will not allow them to sell the jets at the price agreed upon in Paris in April. The deal size — less than $8 billion, as agreed during Modi's France visit — will also go up, officials say, if the Indian Air Force plan to create two bases for Rafale jets is accepted. Two bases will require separate, high-cost infrastructure as well as two sets of maintenance, training and armaments storage facilities. 

There's also the issue of integrating third country weapon systems in French-made Indian Rafale jets. This integration will also drive up costs. 











​


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## IND151

Government withdraws tender for 126 medium multi role combat aircraft: Manohar Parrikar | idrw.org


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## air marshal

‎RIP MMRCA Deal‬

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## W@rwolf

If reports are to be believed, another MMRCA competition might be announced soon!

In another major step towards self reliance in the defence sector, a plan is being finalised to produce 90 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) in India, informed sources said. A Request for Proposal (RFP) is expected to be drafted soon after the new Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) comes in place.

Expected to be one of the biggest projects under the Make in India campaign, the cost of the programme is expected to be around $30 billion, the sources said. The Indian Air Force requires 126 MMRCAs. With India getting into an agreement with France to get 36 Rafale fighter jets in flyaway condition, there was a lack of clarity on how the rest of the gap will be filled. The sources said that now these remaining jets will be made in India, in what will be a major step in domestic manufacturing of such aircraft.

According to the sources, the air force does not have enough squadrons in the event of a joint war with Pakistan and China. “An RFP is expected to be drafted soon for making 90 MMRCAs in India. A global tender will be floated. The private sector will also have an active participation,” said an official from the defence ministry. As many foreign bidders were in the race when India set out to buy 126 MMRCAs, for which Dassault Aviation, the makers of Rafale, was finally chosen, the sources said all original bidders will be invited.

The list of fighters that were in competition for the MMRCA bid included Russia’s MIG-35 (RAC MiG), Swedish Gripen, Dassault, American Lockheed Martin and Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet and Eurofighter Typhoon made by a consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian firms. The sources said that out of the 90 aircraft, 54 will be single-seaters and the remaining 36 tandem-seaters. There will be an option of acquiring 45 additional fighters as a follow-up order.

The Indian Air Force is expected to be down to 32 squadrons by the end of this year, 576 fighter jets short of the 750-strong fighter jet fleet required as per vision documents to face simultaneous two-front wars with Pakistan and China. At least three squadrons of the vintage Soviet origin MiG-21 and MiG-27 single engine aircraft are scheduled to be phased out.

Source - IANS

Welcome To IANS - India's Largest Independent News Service - login


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## ACE OF THE AIR

W@rwolf said:


> If reports are to be believed, another MMRCA competition might be announced soon!
> 
> In another major step towards self reliance in the defence sector, a plan is being finalised to produce 90 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) in India, informed sources said. A Request for Proposal (RFP) is expected to be drafted soon after the new Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) comes in place.
> 
> Expected to be one of the biggest projects under the Make in India campaign, the cost of the programme is expected to be around $30 billion, the sources said. The Indian Air Force requires 126 MMRCAs. With India getting into an agreement with France to get 36 Rafale fighter jets in flyaway condition, there was a lack of clarity on how the rest of the gap will be filled. The sources said that now these remaining jets will be made in India, in what will be a major step in domestic manufacturing of such aircraft.
> 
> According to the sources, the air force does not have enough squadrons in the event of a joint war with Pakistan and China. “An RFP is expected to be drafted soon for making 90 MMRCAs in India. A global tender will be floated. The private sector will also have an active participation,” said an official from the defence ministry. As many foreign bidders were in the race when India set out to buy 126 MMRCAs, for which Dassault Aviation, the makers of Rafale, was finally chosen, the sources said all original bidders will be invited.
> 
> The list of fighters that were in competition for the MMRCA bid included Russia’s MIG-35 (RAC MiG), Swedish Gripen, Dassault, American Lockheed Martin and Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet and Eurofighter Typhoon made by a consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian firms. The sources said that out of the 90 aircraft, 54 will be single-seaters and the remaining 36 tandem-seaters. There will be an option of acquiring 45 additional fighters as a follow-up order.
> 
> The Indian Air Force is expected to be down to 32 squadrons by the end of this year, 576 fighter jets short of the 750-strong fighter jet fleet required as per vision documents to face simultaneous two-front wars with Pakistan and China. At least three squadrons of the vintage Soviet origin MiG-21 and MiG-27 single engine aircraft are scheduled to be phased out.
> 
> Source - IANS
> 
> Welcome To IANS - India's Largest Independent News Service - login


Not an other MMRCA tender... Indian members would commit ... They have waited so long for the Rafales.


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## sathya

I hope this is not a drama to hand over the tender to reliance

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## Abingdonboy

Prasun Sengupta's take on the whole matter:
_ Trouble is the ‘desi’ journalists are an inept lot & can’t give any perspective. The RFP is for the selection of an Indian vendor or a consortium of vendors that will be selected for teaming up with Dassault Aviation for licence-building the 90 Rafales after the first 36 have already arrived from France_
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3545138702780178046&postID=4871788731999987404&page=1&token=1438606241407

By FAR the most compelling and logical analysis of the current situation and to be fair to him he called this (Dassualt floating RFI/RFPs to Indian vendors to make Rafales in India) a few months ago.



sathya said:


> I hope this is not a drama to hand over the tender to reliance


 Fingers crossed for L&T or TATA

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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> Prasun Sengupta's take on the whole matter:
> _ Trouble is the ‘desi’ journalists are an inept lot & can’t give any perspective. The RFP is for the selection of an Indian vendor or a consortium of vendors that will be selected for teaming up with Dassault Aviation for licence-building the 90 Rafales after the first 36 have already arrived from France_
> https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3545138702780178046&postID=4871788731999987404&page=1&token=1438606241407
> 
> By FAR the most compelling and logical analysis of the current situation and to be fair to him he called this (Dassualt floating RFI/RFPs to Indian vendors to make Rafales in India) a few months ago.
> 
> 
> Fingers crossed for L&T or TATA



In other words, its a lockout bid as far as any other aircraft manufacturer is concerned.. but needed to meet government rules and regulations about having more than one bid.

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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> In other words, its a lockout bid as far as any other aircraft manufacturer is concerned.. but needed to meet government rules and regulations about having more than one bid.




The Govt's 'Rules of Business' are the "voice of god" of Biblical proportions.

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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> In other words, its a lockout bid as far as any other aircraft manufacturer is concerned.. but needed to meet government rules and regulations about having more than one bid.


It is the continuation (and conclusion) of the MMRCA by another name/method/approach but substituting the involvement of HAL for a private consortium.

As such it is obvious there is no intent to involve any other aircraft manufacturers- that day has long since past.

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## Silent egale

Rafael is tip of corruption in India

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## ejaz007

*India Cancels $12B Combat Jet Program*

NEW DELHI — India has canceled its $12 billion program to purchase 126 medium multirole combat aircraft.

According to a July 30 press release from the Indian Ministry of Defence, "The RFP issued earlier for procurement of 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) has been withdrawn. In this multi-vendor procurement case, the Rafale aircraft met all the performance characteristics stipulated in the Request for Proposal (RFP) during the evaluation conducted by Indian Air Force."

The release added, "This information was given by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Ahmed Patel in the upper house of parliament on Thursday, 30 July 2015."

Indian officials provided no reason for the cancellation.

Dassault Aviation, prime contractor for the Rafale, was not immediately available for comment.

Separately, the Indian prime minister said in April there would be an off-the-shelf order for 36 Rafales. Dassault hopes the government-to-government negotiations will deliver a contract later this year. If New Delhi does seal the deal, that would be the third export win for the twin-engine fighter jet, following Egypt and Qatar earlier this year.

The first request for information of the MMRCA was floated in December 2005 and the RFP followed in August 2007.

Rafale beat the Eurofighter Typhoon only on the basis of lower cost after they were the only two bidders left in the field. The F-16, F-18, Gripen and MiG-35 were eliminated from competition after flight trials in August 2011.

Under terms of purchase, the first 18 aircraft would have been delivered in fly-away condition while the remaining 108 would have been manufactured under a technology transfer process. Out of the 108 aircraft to be license-produced in India, 74 would have been single-seat and 34 twin-seater aircraft. The delivery was to have begun three years after the contract was signed.

Pierre Tran contributed to this report from Paris.

India Cancels $12B Combat Jet Program


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## [Bregs]

ab es thread ko bhi close kar do, struggling to induct even 36


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## power of steel

Rafale sucks. No DSI.


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## halloweene

"off" information : Dassault emplyees are still working a building chain in India, as if nothing happened.

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## Stephen Cohen

halloweene said:


> "off" information : Dassault emplyees are still working a building chain in India, as if nothing happened.



So they expect a LARGE order soon

@halloweene 

France funding combat laser for wing mounted pod for French Dassault Rafale fighter | idrw.org


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## halloweene

Stephen Cohen said:


> So they expect a LARGE order soon
> 
> @halloweene
> 
> France funding combat laser for wing mounted pod for French Dassault Rafale fighter | idrw.org


Hello Stephen.

I'd like to give more precise infos, but i just do not have them. The "combat",laser is meant afaik only to be *Talios pod one (telemetry etc.)

For the moment


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## surya kiran

halloweene said:


> Hello Stephen.
> 
> I'd like to give more precise infos, but i just do not have them. The "combat",laser is meant afaik only to be *Talios pod one (telemetry etc.)
> 
> For the moment



So can we assume, the chain is being built with Reliance in mind? Or is some other partner in the picture? Or will it be somebody selected via tender? How is this being played out at Dassault?


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## halloweene

All i can say (because i do not know anymore, i'd wish to!) is the lady from Dassault in charge of Rafale industrialization in India is still working as if nothing happened.

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## Capt.Popeye

Silent egale said:


> Rafael is tip of corruption in India



You can't even spell for $hit, man. Neither Eagle nor Rafale. So why do you waste band-width here ?


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## Hindustani78

Updated: August 12, 2015 14:27 IST
Rafale deal runs into problems - The Hindu






Rafale jet fighters are seen on the assembly line in the factory of French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation in Merignac near Bordeaux, France.

Rafale deal runs into problems - The Hindu

*Both sides are wrangling over the price of the aircraft and a condition that Dassault Aviation invest a big percentage of the multi-billion dollar contract in India.*

*India's order of 36 French-made Rafale fighter jets has run into trouble with government officials struggling to agree sales terms, sources said, four months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi intervened to break a logjam in previous commercial negotiations.*

*Two senior Indian defence officials said that both sides were wrangling over the unit price of the aircraft *and a *condition that planemaker Dassault Aviation invest a big percentage of the value of the multi-billion dollar contract in India.* The *problems threaten to further delay the modernisation of India's ageing air force.*

*Military officials have warned of a major capability gap opening up with rivals China and Pakistan without new Western warplanes or if local defence contractors cannot build what the military needs in a timely manner.* Mr. Modi and French President Francois Hollande announced the government-to-government deal for the sale of the off-the-shelf Rafale fighters on April 10.

That followed *three years of commercial negotiations with Dassault for 126 aircraft that stalled due to disagreements over assembling most of the aircraft in India.* Citing* India's urgent defence needs, Modi chose to deal directly with Paris for a smaller order, saying officials would work out the details.*

*On May 16, Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told local media that negotiations over pricing would be finished in a "month or two".* But those talks were *bogged down over India's insistence on a lower price for the frontline warplanes than the roughly $200 million each* that was discussed with Dassault during the commercial talks, said the two defence officials, who have been briefed on the new negotiations.

*Under the previous proposal, Dassault was to assemble 108 of the aircraft in India, a move New Delhi hoped would help boost a high-tech local aerospace industry. There is no production in India in the new arrangement.*

*"Since there is no technology transfer, the price that was on the table during the commercial talks cannot stand," *said one of the officials, who declined to be identified because he was not authorised to speak to the media.

*The Indian Defence Ministry said negotiators were in talks to produce a draft agreement, but declined to give details. Mr. Parrikar said last week that New Delhi had told Paris in April it wanted the jets as soon as possible. A Dassault spokesman declined to comment, as did the French defence procurement agency.*


*Debate over offsets*

The two Indian officials said another sticking point was* New Delhi's standard requirement that arms makers invest a percentage of the value of any deal above $50 million in India.* In this instance,* India wants Dassault to invest at least 30 per cent of the contract value in India through activities such as the sourcing of components for future French operations, the setting up of manufacturing facilities in India or by providing high-tech job training, the officials said.*

*France has said it was ready to meet the offset obligations, but that it would take time to set up a vendor base in India for components for example and that this could push up the deal's cost, the first defence official said. *

*"Unless this is waived at the highest levels, the Defence Ministry is proceeding on the basis that offset requirements have to be met," *the official said. *During the commercial negotiations, India had set the offset bar at 50 percent of the contract, the official added.*

*"This issue has become bigger than the procurement,"* said Amit Cowshish, a former financial advisor on arms purchases to the Indian Defence Ministry, who has been tracking the negotiations.


*Different priorities*

Complicating matters,* the Indian Air Force (IAF) had asked for technical modifications so the latest weapons could be fitted to the jets, the second defence official said.*

Initial technical specifications, which were part of the commercial negotiations, *were outlined a decade ago when India began the process of seeking new fighters.*

*A French source familiar with the matter said differing priorities within India were delaying matters, with the air force focused on weaponry and the Defence Ministry on offsets.*

*"All along the IAF has asked for more armaments than what Dassault has offered while the Indian administration has demanded offsets," the source said. The air force declined to comment, saying the deal was in the government's hands.*

The Rafale fighters are meant to fill a gap in an air force deployed for a two-front war against China and Pakistan.

*A domestic programme to build a light combat aircraft to form the backbone of the air force is 19 years behind schedule, with the first plane due for final operational clearance in March 2016.*

*Meanwhile, nearly 260 MiG 21 and MiG 27 Cold War-era fighter jets are due to be phased out in about eight years.*

*"Even with the entry of the Rafales, the air force has reconciled itself to depleted aircraft strength over the next decade," said retired air vice marshal Kapil Kak. *


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## rockstarIN

The best idea is to get at least 2 sdn of M2K-5s.


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## sathya

rockstarIN said:


> The best idea is to get at least 2 sdn of M2K-5s.




Probably a decade ago, not now
India haven't bought second hand fighters as far as I know..

Probable thing IAF will do, order more sukhoi s
Hope we finalize super sukhoi s faster , and get the additional squads in upgraded form


It's time IAF induct tejas , even if it's half baked for them..

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## rockstarIN

sathya said:


> Probably a decade ago, not now
> India haven't bought second hand fighters as far as I know..
> 
> Probable thing IAF will do, order more sukhoi s
> Hope we finalize super sukhoi s faster , and get the additional squads in upgraded form
> 
> 
> It's time IAF induct tejas , even if it's half baked for them..



We will receive updated M2k's till at least 2017-18 from France which will serve us till 2030. So whats the issue to get the same?


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## mad_max

sathya said:


> Probably a decade ago, not now
> India haven't bought second hand fighters as far as I know..
> 
> Probable thing IAF will do, order more sukhoi s
> Hope we finalize super sukhoi s faster , and get the additional squads in upgraded form
> 
> 
> It's time IAF induct tejas , even if it's half baked for them..


If Su30 mki availability is not improved ordering more of these wont solve the purpose , Rafale is true multirole fighter with 90% availability rate and nothing beats this order at least 200 of these to protect your nation.


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## sathya

rockstarIN said:


> We will receive updated M2k's till at least 2017-18 from France which will serve us till 2030. So whats the issue to get the same?



We don't have the habit of buying second hand fighters 
+ if we buy and upgrade to indian requirements mirages will cost a lot.. 
Remember our upgrade deal amounting to almost 40million $ per aircraft 

Advantages are training , logistics, maintenance already exists.

I think for a two mirage bought second hand we can buy single super su 30mki with AESA or 3 LCA with AESA .., don't you agree..


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## mad_max

Close this deal all together and buy F18 super hornet off the shelf.

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## GURU DUTT

mad_max said:


> Close this deal all together and buy F18 super hornet off the shelf.


trust me on this one if frenchies keep doing such things what you just said is inevitable

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## rockstarIN

sathya said:


> We don't have the habit of buying second hand fighters
> + if we buy and upgrade to indian requirements mirages will cost a lot..
> Remember our upgrade deal amounting to almost 40million $ per aircraft
> 
> Advantages are training , logistics, maintenance already exists.
> 
> I think for a two mirage bought second hand we can buy single super su 30mki with AESA or 3 LCA with AESA .., don't you agree..



There are already updated M2ks available, from Qatar, UAE, Greece etc. All are in good condition!

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## sathya

rockstarIN said:


> There are already updated M2ks available, from Qatar, UAE, Greece etc. All are in good condition!



Yes buddy, 

I agree ' even more it's a medium category which is what needed.

Knowing how fast we procure, cost of French

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## [Bregs]

GURU DUTT said:


> trust me on this one if frenchies keep doing such things what you just said is inevitable



and F18 might solve many issues in one decision will be quick in deliveries too but the point is will this happen ?

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## rockstarIN

sathya said:


> Yes buddy,
> 
> I agree ' even more it's a medium category which is what needed.
> 
> Knowing how fast we procure, cost of French



Greece got 25+ Mk2 new versions, they wish to sell provided the financial conditions as well as they wants to concentrate on F-16s

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## Hindustani78

Rafale deal: France says no to offset, yes to Make in India - The Hindu
Updated: August 16, 2015 13:14 IST
The French government has rejected Indian negotiators’ demand for a 50 per cent offset clause citing sharp cost escalation but offered to participate in ‘Make in India’ projects to carry forward the talks for 36 Rafale fighter jets that have hit turbulence.

Defence sources said India’s insistence on the offset clause, tweaking of weaponary technology and plans to set up two bases for Rafale fighter jets would lead to cost escalation.

Offset policy was first introduced as part of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), 2005, under which a foreign company has to invest back a portion of the deal into India.

“The 50 per cent offset clause was part of the original tender that was floated for 126 fighter jets. The French President and Indian Prime Minister have now decided to go in for a direct purchase of 36 Rafale jets. So, how can 50 per cent offset clause be asked when the French are offering the fighters at the same rate at which its Air Force is buying,” defence sources said.

They added the French have instead offered to undertake ‘Make in India’ initiatives. “*The French can look at the option for making Falcon business jets in India or even the Rafales for future besides other projects,” the sources said, adding the French government has made it clear that their companies would like to be part of ‘Make in India’ initiative. *

The sources said the offset clause will simply drive up the cost of each aircraft.

It is not just the offset clause that the French are worried about. Indian Air Force wants to integrate an Israeli helmet mounted display with the Rafale fighter jets besides tweaking the weaponry technology so that the aircraft can fire a missile other than what the Rafales carry. The missile, sources said is of American make.

*“The changes asked for are not like changing tyres in cars. It takes time, effort and money, all of which will again drive up the cost,” the sources said. *

Also, India wants to set up two bases for the 36 Rafale jets. This means twice the planned machinery, testing facilities besides others which would again jack up the prices, the sources said.

Both Qatar and Egypt, which have struck similar deals with the French government, have gone in for one base only.

*“Can understand that India’s strategic needs might be different but generally two bases are needed when one has more than just two squadrons of a particular aircraft. Setting up of two bases will also cost more,”* the sources said.

*“The benchmark for the prices are already there since the deals with Egypt and Qatar have been struck. The price of the aircraft to India cannot be less than what the other two countries have bought it for,” the sources said. *

They added that no talks have been held between the two sides in the recent past, indicating a likely stalemate.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi had during his visit to France announced his decision to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets citing operational necessity of the IAF.

The announcement had come as a boost for the modernisation plan of the IAF as the original deal for 126 Rafale jets through a tendering process was stuck for years. India has constituted a committee headed by Air Marshal SBP Sinha to hold negotiations with the French.

France is offering the Rafale jets at almost the same price its Air Force is buying it from the original manufacturer Dassault Aviation.

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## Stephen Cohen

@Hindustani78 

This is a positive news ; Both sides are still working out this deal 

Maybe we can have a HAPPY CHRISTMAS


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## PARIKRAMA

Hindustani78 said:


> They added that no talks have been held between the two sides in the recent past, indicating a likely stalemate.



@halloweene : The news posted above in post #1302 and ur post of saying Dassault lady working out modalities for Make in india manufacturing seems a bit contradictory.. You get any feeling whats really going on? 
Also by any chance u know where is @sancho ? Seems he is MIA for too long.. would have loved to hear your and his good opinion on this..


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## sathya

Hindustani78 said:


> .
> 
> It is not just the offset clause that the French are worried about. Indian Air Force wants to integrate an* Israeli helmet mounted display *with the Rafale fighter jets besides tweaking the weaponry technology so that the aircraft can fire a missile other than what the Rafales carry. The *missile, sources said is of American make.*
> 
> *“The changes asked for are not like changing tyres in cars. It takes time, effort and money, all of which will again drive up the cost,” the sources said. *
> 
> Also, India wants to set up two bases for the 36 Rafale jets. This means twice the planned machinery, testing facilities besides others which would again jack up the prices, the sources said.
> 
> Both Qatar and Egypt, which have struck similar deals with the French government, have gone in for one base only.
> 
> *“Can understand that India’s strategic needs might be different but generally two bases are needed when one has more than just two squadrons of a particular aircraft. Setting up of two bases will also cost more,”* the sources said.
> 
> *“The benchmark for the prices are already there since the deals with Egypt and Qatar have been struck. The price of the aircraft to India cannot be less than what the other two countries have bought it for,” the sources said. *
> 
> They added that no talks have been held between the two sides in the recent past, indicating a likely stalemate.
> 
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi had during his visit to France announced his decision to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets citing operational necessity of the IAF.
> 
> The announcement had come as a boost for the modernisation plan of the IAF as the original deal for 126 Rafale jets through a tendering process was stuck for years. India has constituted a committee headed by Air Marshal SBP Sinha to hold negotiations with the French.
> 
> France is offering the Rafale jets at almost the same price its Air Force is buying it from the original manufacturer Dassault Aviation.



This is interesting, of course why France wouldn't allow tweaking , they are set to lose weapons order , if they allow American missiles too..


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## halloweene

sathya said:


> This is interesting, of course why France wouldn't allow tweaking , they are set to lose weapons order , if they allow American missiles too..


Not so sure about that. On the other hand it would be a good export point for Rafale. But i guess MBDA disagree...



PARIKRAMA said:


> @halloweene : The news posted above in post #1302 and ur post of saying Dassault lady working out modalities for Make in india manufacturing seems a bit contradictory.. You get any feeling whats really going on?
> Also by any chance u know where is @sancho ? Seems he is MIA for too long.. would have loved to hear your and his good opinion on this..


Last time i spoke to Sancho he was in Germany. Wait till september (till everyone is back from holidays) for my feelings. Atm nothing to be honest. About the lady, i posted an affirmative sentence with reason....

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## Marxist

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/634731112191823874
@GURU DUTT @Abingdonboy

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## Marxist

*France, India to conclude Rafale jets deal within 10 days - source*

PARIS (Reuters) - India's purchase of French Rafale fighter jets could be concluded in about 10 days, a source with knowledge of talks on the deal told Reuters on Friday.

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi said in April he had ordered 36 Rafale fighters to modernise his country's warplane fleet, though detailed terms and conditions remained to be settled.

Modi had opted to deal directly with the French government after three years of inconclusive negotiations with the plane's manufacturer, Dassault.

*"Things are getting better with India," the source said. "An agreement could be seen in about 10 days."*

Dassault Aviation was not immediately available to comment.

India's announcement came after Dassault in February won its first export order for the jets from Egypt. Since then, Qatar has also placed an order, and talks are under way with Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates.

But the Indian deal ran into trouble, with both sides wrangling over the unit price of the aircraft and a condition that Dassault should invest a big percentage of the value of the multi-billion dollar contract in India, sources said earlier this month.

India is keen to modernise its ageing airforce, with military officials having warned of a major capability gap opening up with China and Pakistan without new Western warplanes, or if local defence contractors cannot build what the military needs in a timely manner. 

France, India to conclude Rafale jets deal within 10 days - source - Yahoo India Finance

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## Hindustani78

Rafale deal: French Defence minister to visit Delhi next week | Zee News
Last Updated: Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 21:28

New Delhi: French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will visit India next week during which a government- to-government framework agreement for the 36 Rafale fighter jets is likely to be signed, which will pave the way for inking of the final contract.

Defence sources said Drian will arrive here on Tuesday and is scheduled to meet the top leadership.

The visit comes amid a deadlock in the talks for the fighter jets over the issues of off-set, tweaking of weaponry technology among others.

The sources said discussions were held at the "highest level" on both sides to get over the roadblocks.

*"One of the parties had to relent. The French have agreed to the Indian conditions," one of the sources told PTI.*

It is expected that if all goes well, the contract for the 36 Rafales will be inked soon, which will come as a huge relief to the Indian Air Force which has been eyeing the aircraft for over a decade.

*India's insistence on 50 per cent off-set clause, tweaking of weaponry technology and plans to set up two bases for Rafale fighter jets were some of the issues which had cropped up during the recent talks that began after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the decision to acquire 36 Rafales jets during his trip to France in April.*

The announcement had come as a boost for the modernisation plan of IAF as the original deal for 126 Rafale jets through a tendering process was stuck for years. India has constituted a committee headed by Air Marshal SBP Sinha to hold negotiations with France.

France was offering the Rafale jets at almost the same price its Air Force is buying it from the original manufacturer Dassault Aviation.

PTI

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## Bang Galore

Flurry of reports now.

India may seal $5 billion Rafale deal next week : Mail Today, News - India Today
India, France to ink deal for 36 Rafale fighters next week - The Times of India

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## GURU DUTT

Bang Galore said:


> Flurry of reports now.
> 
> India may seal $5 billion Rafale deal next week : Mail Today, News - India Today
> India, France to ink deal for 36 Rafale fighters next week - The Times of India


so if the deal for 36 fully french built rafales is of 5Billion euros it comes around 139 million euros per plane .... man that is way too expensive for that ammount we can have 3 mig-35s and save another couple of billion euros on training and maintinence infra

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## IND151

Broadsword: Moscow confused as IAF puts fifth generation fighter on back burner to buy Rafale


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## Agent_47

GURU DUTT said:


> so if the deal for 36 fully french built rafales is of 5Billion euros it comes around 139 million euros per plane .... man that is way too expensive for that ammount we can have 3 mig-35s and save another couple of billion euros on training and maintinence infra


The point is, we don't nead Mig-35 what we need is this or EF. yes,it is expensive that's why we are going for a small number.
The costs includes weapons which will be $1+ billion.(we ordered 500 MICA for $1 billion)

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## Abingdonboy

GURU DUTT said:


> so if the deal for 36 fully french built rafales is of 5Billion euros it comes around 139 million euros per plane .... man that is way too expensive for that ammount we can have 3 mig-35s and save another couple of billion euros on training and maintinence infra


Dividing $5bn by 36 to get your unit price of 139 USD (not Euros bro) is a far too simplistic and flawed method of calculating the actual unit cost of the Rafales being sold to India. As I've explained before, such a deal will include the cost of a large amount of spares, training, simulators, integrating Indian (customer) specific equipment (like LITENING LDPs and HMDS)weapons, support packages, warrantees, stetting up requisite ground infrastructure in India etc etc. These are mammoth costs but will only be incurred the once, it will be far more sensible to calculate the unit cost of Rafales being sold to India when India orders follow-on units (even then only if they are coming from France, if they are being built in India which is more likely then it will be difficult to compare like for like).


And the MiG-35 is a dead horse, they aren't even selling it to their own forces or anyone else- the IAF aren't going for it end of story. 


+it's funny how the price keeps dropping, before it was reported India will get 36 for $10BN, then $8BN now only $5BN. 



Let's wait and see the true figure and what comes with the package.

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## Hindustani78

Defence ministers of Australia, France to visit India

New Delhi: Aug 31, 2015, DHNS:

Defence ministers of Australia and France are set to visit India this week to advance bilateral naval collaborations and accelerate realisation of the long-awaited agreement on the purchase of Rafale fighter jets respectively.

Defence Ministry officials have confirmed the visit of Australian defence minister Kevin Andrews, but is tight-lipped on the visit of his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian, who is likely to be in Delhi in later half of the week to finalise an inter-governmental agreement on the purchase of 36 Rafale jets.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar’s meeting with Le Drian could happen towards the weekend as France reportedly agreed to the conditions that India put forward before going ahead with the Rafale deal. One of the sticking points was understood to be 50 per cent offset, which France appeared to have agreed to, though there is no official confirmation as yet.

*If the 50 per cent offset clause is accepted by both parties, then France would have to invest half of the total deal amount in Indian military industries for downstream production. Andrews, on the other hand, would focus more on expanding the strategic cooperation with a focus on the naval cooperation.*

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## PARIKRAMA

*DAC briefed about Rafale negotiations, gives go ahead*
IANS | New Delhi September 1, 2015 Last Updated at 21:02 IST

he negotiation committee on purchasing Rafale combat jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF) has been given the 'go ahead' by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), defence ministry officials said on Tuesday.

Officials said the deal was "on course", and the negotiations will go on.

"The negotiation committee briefed the DAC about the progress so far," a ministry source said after a DAC meeting on Tuesday.

"The DAC has given its go ahead to them," the source said, refusing to elaborate.

India announced it will buy 36 Rafale jets from France during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit in April.

Sources said there were "no roadblocks" in the deal.
DAC briefed about Rafale negotiations, gives go ahead | Business Standard News


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## Abingdonboy

Rafale deal in its final stages: IAF chief Raha | Page 5


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## soldier of Putin

I don't get why India would go for Rafale. It's not a good plane plus India should make its own rather than buy.

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## Abingdonboy

soldier of Putin said:


> I don't get why India would go for Rafale. It's not a good plane plus India should make its own rather than buy.


It is one of the finest planes around and India is working on its own plane simultaneously.


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## trident2010

soldier of Putin said:


> I don't get why India would go for Rafale. It's not a good plane plus India should make its own rather than buy.



This is the report from Swiss Airforce on Rafale, Eurofighter and Gripen evaluation. Rafale wins hands down. Good read.

http://www.letemps.ch/r/Le_Temps/Quotidien/2012/02/13/Suisse/Textes/gripen.pdf


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## Agent_47

soldier of Putin said:


> I don't get why India would go for Rafale. It's not a good plane plus India should make its own rather than buy.


Same reasoning can be done when you were pitching for Mig35.

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## bdslph

dassault rafale you guys need to hurry up


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## Hindustani78

*France to train would-be Rafale pilots from Egypt*
3 Sep, 2015
*Text: Reuters*

For decades a symbol of fruitless endeavours to sell French fighter jets abroad, the Mont-de-Marsan pilot training centre in southwestern France opened its doors this summer to a large contingent of would-be Rafale pilots from Egypt - testimony to a long-awaited commercial breakthrough in which big sales contracts have been signed with Cairo, Doha and several others buyers whose multi-billion-euro deals include cockpit schooling. 

_In pic: A Rafale fighter jet takes off from the air base in Mont de Marsan, southwestern France._






*Red carpet treatment for first foreign visitors*
3 Sep, 2015
Red carpet treatment for first foreign visitors includes a 'rest room Egypt' relaxation space on the ground floor of the premises and upstairs photos of the Egyptian pilots proudly lined up in front of the latest-generation jets they will soon take command of. Picture taken August 31, 2015. 

_In pic: French soldiers and pilots work on a Rafale jet fighter at the air base in Mont de Marsan, southwestern France._




*Latest-generation jets*
3 Sep, 2015
French soldiers prepare a jet fuel tank for a Rafale jet fighter at the air base in Mont de Marsan, southwestern France.




*Pilot trains on a Rafale jet fighter simulator*
3 Sep, 2015
A pilot trains on a Rafale jet fighter simulator at the air base in Mont de Marsan, southwestern France.




*Mont de Marsan*
3 Sep, 2015
A Rafale fighter jet flies over the air base in Mont de Marsan, southwestern France.




*Training course on Rafale jet fighters*
3 Sep, 2015
Pilots attend a training course on Rafale jet fighters at the air base in Mont de Marsan, southwestern France.




*Pilots train on a Rafale jet fighter simulator*
3 Sep, 2015
Pilots train on a Rafale jet fighter simulator at the air base in Mont de Marsan, southwestern France.

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## Hindustani78

*Rafale jet fighter simulator*
3 Sep, 2015
A pilot trains on a Rafale jet fighter simulator at the air base in Mont de Marsan, southwestern France.




*Engine of a Rafale jet*
3 Sep, 2015
An engine of a Rafale jet fighter is pictured at the air base in Mont de Marsan, southwestern France.




*M88 engines which powers Rafale jet*
3 Sep, 2015
A view shows M88 engines, produced by Snecma and which power Rafale jet fighters, at the air base in Mont de Marsan, southwestern France.




*M88 engines*
3 Sep, 2015
A view shows M88 engines, produced by Snecma and which power Rafale jet fighters, at the air base in Mont de Marsan, southwestern France.




*French soldiers and pilots work on Rafale jet*
3 Sep, 2015
French soldiers and pilots work on Rafale jet fighters at the air base in Mont de Marsan, southwestern France.




*French soldier works on a Rafale jet fighter*
3 Sep, 2015
A French soldier works on a Rafale jet fighter at the air base in Mont de Marsan, southwestern France.








*Mont-de-Marsan pilot training centre*
3 Sep, 2015
A Rafale fighter jet flies over the air base in Mont de Marsan, southwestern France.

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## Abingdonboy

Any news on the French DM's visit to India? This was meant to happen at the end of last week but no news of it, he delayed his visit by a few days initially pending DAC clearance of the Rafale purchase so is he delaying it further for more good news?


@halloweene @Gabriel92 @Water Car Engineer @SR-91 @Koovie @PARIKRAMA @Hindustani78 @ranjeet @Star Wars any updates?


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## LonE_WolF

there was a thread that rafale deal will be signed in 10 days. any updates on that?


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## SR-91

Abingdonboy said:


> Any news on the French DM's visit to India? This was meant to happen at the end of last week but no news of it, he delayed his visit by a few days initially pending DAC clearance of the Rafale purchase so is he delaying it further for more good news?
> 
> 
> @halloweene @Gabriel92 @Water Car Engineer @SR-91 @Koovie @PARIKRAMA @Hindustani78 @ranjeet @Star Wars any updates?





I believe the situation in Syria will hold back the French DM. 

2 Rafale jets just began reconnaissance flights and the bombing mission is to begin. Millions of refugees are heading to Europe, it HAS to be on their agenda. Stop the Flow of refugees into Europe will gain priority over signing of the deal.


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## ultron

When will the deal be signed?


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## SpArK



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## Hindustani78

India's big-ticket 36 Rafale deal: Stuck in negotiations
New Delhi, Sep 17, 2015,(IANS)




*Five months after India announced the deal to purchase 36 Rafale fighter jets "off the shelf" from France, much of the expectations from the big-ticket deal appears to have evaporated due to protracted negotiations that look set to continue for some more months*

While voices from both sides say there is hope for the deal being concluded by December this year, on the French side there is some frustration at the long-winded nature of the negotiations.

The deal for purchase of the 36 Rafale jets, by Dassault Aviation, was announced during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Paris in April. India decided to purchase the 36 jets from Paris in a flyaway condition in a government-to-government agreement. 

The Indian Air Force, which badly needs to replace its aging fleet of Soviet MIG aircraft, was looking forward to the new planes.

However, the offsets clause that requires 50 percent of indigenous content in big-ticket defence contracts is believed to be a stumbling block, as also the pricing. 

The deal is estimated at $8 billion. While India and France are still involved in the sticky negotiations, Egypt has already welcomed three Rafale jets into the country in July - five months after inking a deal for 24 of the French jets.


Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi inked the contract for 24 Rafales in Cairo in February, in an estimated $5.6 billion deal. Qatar also inked a deal in March this year for purchase of 24 Rafale jets.

According to reports, three twin-seat variant of the jet were delivered in Cairo on July 21. Egypt inked a deal to acquire 16 two-seaters and eight single-seaters Rafale fighters. France is also training Egyptian pilots to fly the Rafale.

French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian visited Cairo a few days after France delivered the jets. He was to visit India on August 31 during which the deal was expected to be inked. Le Drian was in Malaysia to hardsell the Rafale and the Mistral warship.

However, he flew straight on to Europe after it became known that the negotiations were not likely to be concluded soon.

The Indian defence ministry had at the time refused to confirm his visit.
According to French envoy Francois Richier, the defence minister had to fly to Europe to attend a EU defence ministers meeting. Richier said France is hopeful of concluding the negotiations soon.

The progress in negotiations was reviewed by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), the top acquisition body of the defence ministry, chaired by Minister Manohar Parrikar on September 1. Sources said the progress in talks between both sides was "satisfactory".

"The negotiations are on the right track. The DAC was briefed about it, and they gave the go ahead," an official told IANS, not wanting to be identified.

According to informed sources, France is reported to be unhappy over the offset clause that requires it to invest 50 percent of the value of the contract in India. This clause was present in the original deal for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) Rafale jets.

According to sources, the French may be given a "concession" in the clause and talks are on. However, a final decision is yet to be taken -- one of the reasons for the delay in the deal.* Another factor is that India has asked for two air bases for the 36 jets, which France is reported to be unhappy about as it would lead to cost escalation, sources said.*

The French side is believed to be of the view that the Rafale should not be cheaper priced for India, as compared to the deals inked with Egypt and Qatar.

*The Indian Air Force is expected to be down to 32 squadrons by the end of this year - 576 fighter jets short of the 750-strong fleet required as per the IAF vision document, in case of a two-front war with Pakistan and China.*

At least three squadrons of the vintage Soviet Union-origin MiG-21 and MiG-27 single engine aircraft are scheduled to be phased out, officially by the year-end.

*The IAF currently has 33 combat squadrons against a sanctioned strength of 39.5, which is sought to be raised to 42.*

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## #hydra#

This f*****g deal is never going to be materialised I think, & it shouldn't be.


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## bdslph

damn all this years still same story stuck


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## ultron

Rafale for India? Not a chance.


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## PARIKRAMA

*DASSAULT AVIATION: Rafale- "No worries" for the contract to India-Le Drian*

STRASBOURG, September 14 (Reuters) - Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian was very confident Monday for the sale of 36 Rafale combat aircraft from Dassault Aviation in India.

"This is changing though. I have no concern. It is only the procedure," said he told Reuters on the sidelines of the Summer University of Defence in Strasbourg.

The CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, present at the same event, declined to comment on the subject.

Jean-Yves Le Drian had given early September in a visit to India after returning from a trip to Malaysia, in the absence of decisive progress in the negotiations on this agreement started 36 Rafale early May with New Delhi.

The Indian military procurement committee (Defence Acquisition Council) in early September gave the green light to continue discussions on the purchase of Rafale, which has yet to be validated by other government agencies before it can be signed with France .

Sources close to the case had said in early August that talks stumbled on differences between Paris and New Delhi, repeating partially blocking points that had stalled the previous exclusive negotiations initiated in early 2012 for a contract of 126 Rafale, which 108 manufactured in India. (Cyril Altmeyer and Marine Pennetier, edited by Jean-Michel Belot)

DASSAULT AVIATION : Rafale-"Aucune inquiétude" pour le contrat en Inde-Le Drian, infos et conseils valeur FR0000121725, AM - Les Echos Bourse

For Rafale lovers and haters, an opinion from Prasun K Sengupta for a pointed question on this subject.

-------- said...
Look at out retarded babus:

India's big-ticket Rafale deal for 36 jets stuck in negotiations - The Economic Times
So that DAC green light was MEANINGLESS, the Rafale saga drags on with no end in sight only thing this new govt has done is reduce the number!! NOTHING has been achieved. 

Mark my words we will never get a single Rafale. In a few month we will STILL be talking with the French and then the PMO will scrap the entire process. 


You were saying we would be getting 189 rafales a few days ago. What nonsense was was that???





Prasun K. Sengupta said...
To -------- : 
So you think once the DAC approves a contract, nothing can stop it from being inked? I had repeatedly explained that the DAC's approval only means that competitive evaluations & contract negotiations can be undertaken by the Defence Procurement Board & only after final approval is accorded by the Cabinet Committee on National Security can contract signature take place. 

All this talk of 50% offsets for only 36 MMRCAs is sheer nonsense. No OEM in the world will agree to such terms & conditions. The offsets clause will therefore apply to only 189 MMRCAs to be procured. The real & only impediment is about the IAF's refusal to forego the existing discredited practice of maintaining a customised BRD for each aircraft-type. The way ahead lies in appointing the OEM-specified Indian vendor or Indian representative of the foreign OEM as the total support services provider. Only this way will the MMRCA's through-life MRO costs come done. Nothing else will work. The MoD & Union MoF is however unwilling to accept this fact-of-life. And both these ministries are headed by civilian politicians as ministers, & not Babus.

September 18, 2015 at 4:26 AM


Saurav Jha answered abt rafale (from AMA reddit)



Q:Why do we need Rafale when Su-30MKI does the job? It seems to be many times expensive than even F-35 in lifecycle costs! No article in Indian MSM has so far addressed this question,just wisecracks on maintainability of Su-30MKI!If that were so,we could just address maintainability of Su-30MKI and that would be it! So why the white elephant?Why not more Mig-29s or Su-30MKIs?


SJHA1618[S] 4 points 2 days ago 
It seems the IAF wants the Rafale for its lower RCS coupled with on board EW characteristics for the penetrating mission.

DASSAULT AVIATION: Rafale- "No worries" for the contract to India-Le Drian


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## PARIKRAMA

after a lot of finding, courtesy Picdelamirand-oil, i could finally locate the cost composition of any rafale acquisition.

This helps in understanding any rafale deal 






@Abingdonboy Hope you find this interesting

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## Perpendicular

Talks for Rafale deal price to take a month more: Source - The Economic Times


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## Hindustani78

Rafale talks to take a month more - The Hindu
Updated: September 27, 2015 10:48 IST

*India’s insistence on 50 per cent off-set clause, tweaking of weaponry technology and plans to set up two bases were among the sticking points*
The talks for negotiating the cost of 36 Rafale fighter jets India is buying from France is going on at a “hectic” pace and are likely to be wrapped up in another one month, top defence sources said.

“The talks have been very hectic. There are a lot of fine prints that both sides look into. The talks will most likely take one more month,” defence sources told PTI.

“The talks are taking place since morning to evening. The French side is here thrice every month and every effort is to wrap up the talks fast,” they said.

The Defence Acquisition Council had on September 1 given the go ahead for further negotiations for purchase of 36 jets that had got stalled due to differences over a variety of issues.

India’s insistence on 50 per cent off-set clause, tweaking of weaponry technology and plans to set up two bases were among the sticking points that had cropped up during the talks that began after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the decision to acquire the fighter jets during his trip to France in April.

If things proceed smoothly, a government-to-government agreement between India and France could be signed soon, paving the way for the final contract for the purchase of the aircraft.

Mr. Modi’s decision to buy the jets, citing operational requirements of the IAF, had given a boost to the modernisation plans of the air force as the original deal for 126 Rafale jets through a tendering process had got stuck for years.


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## anant_s

*Rafale Deal: French team arrives today; $4.5 billion may be invested in ‘Make in India’ projects*

*NEW DELHI: A major breakthrough could be imminent in the Rafale fighter aircraft deal with the French side agreeing to an Indian condition that calls for investing 50% of the deal value in 'Make in India' projects in the defence, security and aerospace sectors. A top team from Paris, led by Engineer-General Stephane Reb, director of the International Directorate of the DGA (General Directorate for Armament) of the French ministry of defence will be in Delhi on Tuesday to work out final price negotiations and take the deal to the final stage, sources familiar with the development told ET.*

*The French manufacturers of the Rafale fighter will commit to making investments worth $4.5 billion in the Indian industry as part of the deal. Sources aware of the matter told ET that while the French side has accepted in principle a 50% offset clause, which requires the Rafale manufacturers to invest half the deal value in India, the government will also liberalise its stringent defence offsets policy to address some specific concerns of the manufacturer.*





*A final pact could be ready within a month. Negotiations had been stalled over these offset conditions.*
*



*
*The two sides are now working to finalise the draft Inter Governmental Agreement (IGA) that will be signed as part of the deal after the logjam over offsets and pricing was broken following top-level political intervention from New Delhi and Paris. Air Marshal SPB Sinha, the deputy chief of air staff, will lead the final price discussions from the Indian side. As reported by ET, the Rafale deal had been delayed following differences on pricing as well as the offsets clause between the two sides*
*



*

*The logjam has been broken with a broad agreement on hybrid offsets in which French investments in other Make in India projects will also be considered as meeting offset obligations.

The investments in India could include civilian projects that companies like Dassault and Thales are pursuing. One of the Make in India investments is likely to be in the manufacturing of components of the French Falcon executive jets as well as in the smart city projects of Thales.




On September 1, the Indian negotiating team had been given a go-ahead to conclude the deal following a top-level defence acquisition meet in the Capital. Prime Minister Narendra Modi met his French counterpart in the US on Monday and is expected to discuss the state of the negotiations.

The deal, clinched in principal during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Paris trip in April, has since been stuck for over four months now.
Rafale Deal: French team arrives today; $4.5 billion may be invested in ‘Make in India’ projects - The Economic Times*

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## Hindustani78

Mr. Narendra Modi met Mr. Hollande on his last day in New York.
Rafale negotiations on track - The Hindu

Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President of France Francois Hollande expressed satisfaction over the ongoing negotiations on Dassault Rafale fighters that India plans to buy from France.

India had announced its decision to purchase 36 fighters off-the-shelf from France when Mr. Modi visited the country in March. There were reports that the negotiators were finding it difficult to reach a final sale agreement, and both leaders reviewed the progress of the deal when they met on Monday.

Mr. Modi also met Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, Mr. David Cameron on his last day in New York. A statement from the Prime Minister’s office said the four common themes that were discussed at his meetings with France, UK and the US were “climate change, terrorism, India’s desire for membership of the four export control regimes, and reform of the United Nations Security Council.”

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## ultron

Hindustani78 said:


> Mr. Narendra Modi met Mr. Hollande on his last day in New York.
> Rafale negotiations on track - The Hindu
> 
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President of France Francois Hollande expressed satisfaction over the ongoing negotiations on Dassault Rafale fighters that India plans to buy from France.
> 
> India had announced its decision to purchase 36 fighters off-the-shelf from France when Mr. Modi visited the country in March. There were reports that the negotiators were finding it difficult to reach a final sale agreement, and both leaders reviewed the progress of the deal when they met on Monday.
> 
> Mr. Modi also met Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, Mr. David Cameron on his last day in New York. A statement from the Prime Minister’s office said the four common themes that were discussed at his meetings with France, UK and the US were “climate change, terrorism, India’s desire for membership of the four export control regimes, and reform of the United Nations Security Council.”




That French guy looks evil.

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## Hindustani78

Rafale deal faces many obstacles - The Hindu

India and France are engaged in intense negotiations to thrash out an inter-governmental agreement which would provide the framework for final negotiation on the deal for 36 Rafale fighters.

Sources on both sides said the deal was far from final conclusion, and serious differences over almost every major aspect of the deal for the advanced fighters remain. Among them are French side’s concerns about a major Indian private sector conglomerate whose services are being recommended by some sections of the Indian government.

Officials said a delegation of senior officials from the French government had been in New Delhi for the past few days fine-tuning the agreement to be signed between the two sides.

The deal for the purchase of 36 fighters from Dassault announced by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in Paris in April is yet to be formally signed into an agreement. “It would be a framework under which we will have to deal with various aspects of the deal,” a source said.

One official in the know of things said the French side had several concerns that could play out as both sides sit down to carry out specific negotiations. *Key among them is their questions about what role a major Indian private conglomerate would play in the deal. Due diligence done on the group, recommended strongly by a section in the government, has thrown up questions over its financial capabilities, the sources said.*

*The two sides could also find the negotiations running into serious trouble over the offset clause for the deal. While the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) deal — the precursor to the present Rafale deal — had 50 per cent offset, and most of its fighters were to be assembled in India, the deal under negotiation is for off-the-shelf purchase of 36 fighters from France.*

_The Economic Times _on Tuesday reported that a major breakthrough was imminent in the deal with the French side agreeing to an Indian condition that calls for investing 50 per cent of the deal value in ‘Make in India’ projects in the defence, security and aerospace sectors. Under the formula, the newspaper said, French investments in other projects, including in civilian sectors, will also be considered as meeting offset obligations. Sources said the French side was hopeful of a more liberalised offset policy, without which the contract would be difficult to execute. Another issue would be over the final price of the fighter. *Sources said India could demand mounting of some non-French armaments on Rafale, which could also add to further complications in the deal.*


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## Hindustani78

Rafale deal 'hopefuly' by year-end: IAF chief | Zee News

New Delhi: Admitting that there is a shortage of fighters, the Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, said on Saturday he is "hopeful" that the deal for purchasing 36 Rafale jets off-the-shelf from France will be finalised by the year-end.

He said that the negotiations for the deal, finalised during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to France in April, was progressing well.

"I am hopeful that the negotiations for the deal will not go beyond this year," the air chief said at the annual conference ahead of Air Force Day on October 8.

"This is my feeling," he added.

The air chief said it will take two to three years for the first of two Rafale squadrons to be operational.

He also said that at least six squadrons of medium multi-role combat aircraft were required, adding that the decision on acquiring these will be taken by the government.


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## #hydra#

Hindustani78 said:


> Rafale deal 'hopefuly' by year-end: IAF chief | Zee News
> 
> New Delhi: Admitting that there is a shortage of fighters, the Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, said on Saturday he is "hopeful" that the deal for purchasing 36 Rafale jets off-the-shelf from France will be finalised by the year-end.
> 
> He said that the negotiations for the deal, finalised during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to France in April, was progressing well.
> 
> "I am hopeful that the negotiations for the deal will not go beyond this year," the air chief said at the annual conference ahead of Air Force Day on October 8.
> 
> "This is my feeling," he added.
> 
> The air chief said it will take two to three years for the first of two Rafale squadrons to be operational.
> 
> He also said that at least six squadrons of medium multi-role combat aircraft were required, adding that the decision on acquiring these will be taken by the government.


every year has an year ending, tell me which year?2015 or 16 or 2050 or year 2100 .......

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## PARIKRAMA

@Abingdonboy 
IAF chief's statement seems a bit odd. I am sure he is unhappy that he is not getting new birds but equally it is surprising that he is quoting 2-3 months timeframe what we all thot would have ideally wrapped up earlier. Is it a sign of a complex deal which is going on? or is it a sign that these 36 jets itself is making the negotiators sweat way too much? 

BTW in the interview he confirmed 6 sqds of rafale later so as a requirement to b elooked by government so make in india is there for sure and minimum 18x6+36=1444 birds are there for sure.. 

So congrats that we were right till the end when we said its coming come what may.. Only sad part is the time taken fro negotiations as well as announcement of Make in India part. You see, Modi will complete 2 years in May 2016. Effectively if he wants to use the Rafale Make in India deal investments as a showcase for elections in 2018-19, the NDA government must approve and announce the deal by May 2016 or before completion of 2 years in power. This gives a meaningful timeframe to see smart investments, and perhaps TOT flowing into MII complex as well as some other peripheral projects like Smart cities etc.

He did show confidence of finding the strength of squad back to 42 by 2027 but Rafale, Pakfa and investment flowing into AMCA and production rate of LCA (all versions) seems to be the core issues which may rock the boats of his planning and implementation.

Hope rafale and PAKFA issues gets solved in next 3 months and MII part in too for both the deals.


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## PARIKRAMA

For some more entertainment reading

*IAF wants over 100 Rafale or similar jets*





Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha addresses a press conference in New Delhi on October 3, 2015. Tribune photo: Mukesh Aggarwal
New Delhi, October 3


Indian Air Force today said it would need at least six squadrons comprising 108 Rafale or similar jets to shore up its capabilities as it hoped that the contract for 36 French fighter aircraft would be inked by year-end.


Noting that two squadron of 18 Rafale jets each might not be enough, Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha said his force would like to have at least six squadrons of the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).


He hinted that even though the Rafale is the front- runner, India may go in for another aircraft with similar capabilities "if the deal is good".


*“Definitely, we would like to have MMRCA variety of aircraft. At least about six squadrons to my mind. Let us see, there may be some other alternatives as well,"* Raha said addressing a press conference ahead of the Air Force Day on October 8.


He was replying to questions about the possibility of India Air Force wanting more than the 36 Rafales under a government to government deal announced by Prime Minister Narendra Modi during his trip to France in April.


Asked if the additional four squadrons of aircraft will be Rafales or if there is a possibility of other players getting into play, Raha said, *"I may wish to have Rafale. But there are equally good aircraft. So if the deal is good and the government decides we need to have six of similar squadron...."*


*"There are alternatives. I cannot say I only want Rafale. I want capability of Rafale type aircraft. So the government will have a look at it and based on urgency and the type of contract is signed with Dassault Aviation, further decisions may be taken by the government. I cannot predict," he said.*


Admitting that the IAF is currently "short" in terms of authorised strength of 42 squadrons, Raha said more aircraft are needed to replace many more squadrons in coming years.


*"The need is there. As Air Force, we will like to have more of these (MMRCA) but it will have to be viable in terms of cost, in terms transfer of technology and in terms of Make in India policy that the government is trying to implement.*

*
"So if those terms and conditions are good, then I am sure we will be able to get more. But as of now we are looking at 36," he said*.


With the government cancelling the multi-billion tender for 126 MMRCA, there is renewed hope in the aviation industry that India may go in for fresh bids to fill up the gaps.


From Swedish firm Saab to US' Lockheed Martin and the France's Dassault Aviation, most of the global aircraft manufactures have offered their jets in line with the government's push for 'Make in India'. — PTI


IAF wants over 100 Rafale or similar jets

@SpArK @Abingdonboy @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @Gabriel92 @halloweene @Hindustani78 

*Capability of rafale type aircraft....*

Food for thought or encouraging others to quote few things to increase competition and perhaps urgency of negotiations with added pressure on Dassault?

@halloweene Hows the progress in Dassault end? upscaling of production rate per month seems to be on schedule.. hearing of reached 2 per month now and will reach planned 3 per monh in 2016/17..
But what about the progress in Make in India part? The senior officer (last you said some senior lady posted in India) of Dassault has concluded anything? Any murmurs about whats holding the deal back now? i mean for both Make In India or 36 flyaway part?
BTW you are not seen here for long. Hope you are all well.. @sancho seems retired. Missing his voice and opinion.. If you come in contact with him, do point him here.. we always need good boarders like him..

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## Hindustani78

PARIKRAMA said:


> From Swedish firm Saab to US' Lockheed Martin and the France's Dassault Aviation, most of the global aircraft manufactures have offered their jets in line with the government's push for 'Make in India'. — PTI
> 
> 
> [URL='http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/iaf-wants-over-100-rafale-or-similar-jets/141127.html']IAF wants over 100 Rafale or similar jets





PARIKRAMA said:


> @SpArK @Abingdonboy @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @Gabriel92 @halloweene @Hindustani78


[/URL]

Lockheed May Offer India Stealth F-35s to Rejoin Sales Race - Bloomberg Business
June 21, 2011

June 21 (Bloomberg) -- Lockheed Martin Corp. may offer its latest warplane, the F-35 stealth fighter, to India in a bid to rejoin the Asian country’s $11 billion combat-jet competition after its older F-16 model was eliminated.

The Senate committee request for a Pentagon study on selling F-35s to India was part of a broader amendment on U.S.- India military ties offered by Senators John Cornyn, Republican of Texas, where the fighter is produced, and Joseph Lieberman, independent of Connecticut, home to United Technologies Corp., which makes the plane’s engines.

The lawmakers also asked the Pentagon to study the possibility of a U.S.-India partnership for development of a replacement for the U.S. Air Force’s T-38 trainer jet. The planes, built by Northrop Grumman Corp.’s predecessor, have been in use since the 1960s.

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## PARIKRAMA

@Abingdonboy 





Prasun K. Sengupta said...
*Negotiations are underway on whether to procure just an initial 36, or a first tranche of 80 Rafales. That's because Dassault has come up with a refined offer that makes it possible to order 80 Rafales that will be accompanied by a suitable direct/indirect industrial offsets package. Main problem was that the MoD never had a crafted guidelines/regulations governing indirect industrial offsets packages (thanks to the brain-dead AKA) & consequently it was let to the present RM to come up with realistic/viable indirect offsets possibilities. That's what caused the procedural delays. The 'desi' journalists had got it all wrong BECAUSE they ASSUMED that the procurement figure revolved around the figure of 36, instead of realising that the figure had increased to 80
*
*80? not 36*

he further says
* Were you ever in any doubt about the eventual Rafale fleet-strength? Even today at noontime at IAF HQ the CAS of the IAF during his customary pre-Air Force day press conference had stated on-the-record that the IAF requires six squadrons of M-MRCAs, although he added that there are other M-MRCAs available. In my view, he should have been more careful with his words before babbling such soundbytes, because such remarks directly contract PM NaMo's statement in Paris about procuring Rafales directly from France ASAP. And when such contradictory statements are made, the PMO is bound to take IAF HQ to task for being careless with words. Another remark by the CAS today was that the Tejas Mk1, Tejas Mk1A & Tejas Mk2 don't exist--only the Tejas MRCA exists. What he meant by this will now be the subject of various conspiracy theories emanating from the band of 'desi' journalists, rest assured. And no one at the press-conference even asked him to clarify, or ask if the Tejas Mk2 doesn't exist physically or in the form of an R & D project, then for what have 99 F-414 turbofans been ordered from GE & why are they now being delivered since last June? Not a single question about the future of the An-32RE upgrade project or about the future of the AW-101 VVIP helicopters. *

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## SR-91

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Abingdonboy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prasun K. Sengupta said...
> *Negotiations are underway on whether to procure just an initial 36, or a first tranche of 80 Rafales. That's because Dassault has come up with a refined offer that makes it possible to order 80 Rafales that will be accompanied by a suitable direct/indirect industrial offsets package. Main problem was that the MoD never had a crafted guidelines/regulations governing indirect industrial offsets packages (thanks to the brain-dead AKA) & consequently it was let to the present RM to come up with realistic/viable indirect offsets possibilities. That's what caused the procedural delays. The 'desi' journalists had got it all wrong BECAUSE they ASSUMED that the procurement figure revolved around the figure of 36, instead of realising that the figure had increased to 80
> *
> *80? not 36*
> 
> he further says
> * Were you ever in any doubt about the eventual Rafale fleet-strength? Even today at noontime at IAF HQ the CAS of the IAF during his customary pre-Air Force day press conference had stated on-the-record that the IAF requires six squadrons of M-MRCAs, although he added that there are other M-MRCAs available. In my view, he should have been more careful with his words before babbling such soundbytes, because such remarks directly contract PM NaMo's statement in Paris about procuring Rafales directly from France ASAP. And when such contradictory statements are made, the PMO is bound to take IAF HQ to task for being careless with words. Another remark by the CAS today was that the Tejas Mk1, Tejas Mk1A & Tejas Mk2 don't exist--only the Tejas MRCA exists. What he meant by this will now be the subject of various conspiracy theories emanating from the band of 'desi' journalists, rest assured. And no one at the press-conference even asked him to clarify, or ask if the Tejas Mk2 doesn't exist physically or in the form of an R & D project, then for what have 99 F-414 turbofans been ordered from GE & why are they now being delivered since last June? Not a single question about the future of the An-32RE upgrade project or about the future of the AW-101 VVIP helicopters. *





36 never made sense, given the threat perception and bird shortages.

*THIS WAS ALWAYS ON CARD*, it was well thought out strategy by Modi's govt.
French had to fall in line.

Now he brought another interesting point,......"*then for what have 99 F-414 turbofans been ordered from GE & why are they now being delivered since last June".
*

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## PARIKRAMA

i will quote even more interesting. If rumoured offset figure is 4.5Bn$ then full deal is 9 Bn$. Now if its inclusive of weapons then jet deal Total cost of operation is 7.5 Bn $ meaning $94 Mn per jet . If the 9Bn is excluding weapon cost then also per jet cost is 112.5 Mn. Again these are total cost of operations for 40 years...

The only issue is 4.5Bn figure is for this "80" plan or not? No one can confirm that as no offical confirmation has been ever given on anythin related to cost....

One thing is clear, the negotiations are far more complex and definitely there is much bigger directly from france component to augment rafale increased rate of production.
Perhaps if 80 flyway goes thru then 90 under MII will make straight forward 170 birds.. Follow on may add even more for both parts..

So suddenly the hope is different... i guess soemthing really complex cooking here..An elaborate 7 course meal perhaps..

99 GE 414 case and the talk of no MK2 makes me believe MK2 program is priortised atm purely for IN. IAF i believe may evaluate at an appropriate time MK2 coming out for IN.

But interestingly, why such big numbers as IN i dont think has stated something like 50 MK2 jets requirement with 1:1 engine replacements as spares for future..

Perhaps this may imply iAF is keen on MK1 and whatever upgrades HAL ADA can come with DRDO and not give paper dreams of MK2 solution for any present insufficiency or not meeting requirements or any small issue..

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Abingdonboy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prasun K. Sengupta said...
> *Negotiations are underway on whether to procure just an initial 36, or a first tranche of 80 Rafales. That's because Dassault has come up with a refined offer that makes it possible to order 80 Rafales that will be accompanied by a suitable direct/indirect industrial offsets package. Main problem was that the MoD never had a crafted guidelines/regulations governing indirect industrial offsets packages (thanks to the brain-dead AKA) & consequently it was let to the present RM to come up with realistic/viable indirect offsets possibilities. That's what caused the procedural delays. The 'desi' journalists had got it all wrong BECAUSE they ASSUMED that the procurement figure revolved around the figure of 36, instead of realising that the figure had increased to 80
> *
> *80? not 36*
> 
> he further says
> * Were you ever in any doubt about the eventual Rafale fleet-strength? Even today at noontime at IAF HQ the CAS of the IAF during his customary pre-Air Force day press conference had stated on-the-record that the IAF requires six squadrons of M-MRCAs, although he added that there are other M-MRCAs available. In my view, he should have been more careful with his words before babbling such soundbytes, because such remarks directly contract PM NaMo's statement in Paris about procuring Rafales directly from France ASAP. And when such contradictory statements are made, the PMO is bound to take IAF HQ to task for being careless with words. Another remark by the CAS today was that the Tejas Mk1, Tejas Mk1A & Tejas Mk2 don't exist--only the Tejas MRCA exists. What he meant by this will now be the subject of various conspiracy theories emanating from the band of 'desi' journalists, rest assured. And no one at the press-conference even asked him to clarify, or ask if the Tejas Mk2 doesn't exist physically or in the form of an R & D project, then for what have 99 F-414 turbofans been ordered from GE & why are they now being delivered since last June? Not a single question about the future of the An-32RE upgrade project or about the future of the AW-101 VVIP helicopters. *


80 off the shelf and how many made in India then?


Things are getting more and more complex with every day! The only certainties are the Rafale is coming (not clear just when as of yet) and that 36 will never be the final figure.

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> 80 off the shelf and how many made in India then?
> 
> 
> Things are getting more and more complex with every day! The only certainties are the Rafale is coming (not clear just when as of yet) and that 36 will never be the final figure.


MII part remains 90 as per RFP
so my understanding is 80+90 = 170

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## SR-91

PARIKRAMA said:


> i will quote even more interesting. If rumoured offset figure is 4.5Bn$ then full deal is 9 Bn$. Now if its inclusive of weapons then jet deal Total cost of operation is 7.5 Bn $ meaning $94 Mn per jet . If the 9Bn is excluding weapon cost then also per jet cost is 112.5 Mn. Again these are total cost of operations for 40 years...
> 
> The only issue is 4.5Bn figure is for this "80" plan or not? No one can confirm that as no offical confirmation has been ever given on anythin related to cost....
> 
> One thing is clear, the negotiations are far more complex and definitely there is much bigger directly from france component to augment rafale increased rate of production.
> Perhaps if 80 flyway goes thru then 90 under MII will make straight forward 170 birds.. Follow on may add even more for both parts..
> 
> So suddenly the hope is different... i guess soemthing really complex cooking here..An elaborate 7 course meal perhaps..
> 
> 99 GE 414 case and the talk of no MK2 makes me believe MK2 program is priortised atm purely for IN. IAF i believe may evaluate at an appropriate time MK2 coming out for IN.
> 
> But interestingly, why such big numbers as IN i dont think has stated something like 50 MK2 jets requirement with 1:1 engine replacements as spares for future..
> 
> Perhaps this may imply iAF is keen on MK1 and whatever upgrades HAL ADA can come with DRDO and not give paper dreams of MK2 solution for any present insufficiency or not meeting requirements or any small issue..





PARIKRAMA said:


> MII part remains 90 as per RFP
> so my understanding is 80+90 = 170




Oh boy,Thats a lot of new jets.
Rafale = 170
Tejas mk1A = 120
FGFA = we have wait till december to find out, but the news is 2/3 squadrons off shelf.

* If we ink this contract by this year end, Rafale will start arriving in 2019/2020.
* The same year HAL will complete MKI delivery.
* Super SU-30 hopeful by 2020.
* In 2016----- 4 Tejas, 
* 2017---------8 Tejas, 
* 2018---------16 Tejas 
* 2019 --------24 Tejas, possible, Parrikar wants HAL to produce 24 Tejas jets per year.

I think it looks good, @PARIKRAMA, thx for some good info.

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## $@rJen

*Modi intervenes again to remove deadlock, First Rafale Squadron in two to three years*
PublishedOctober 6, 2015 | Byadmin

SOURCE: India Strategic







In an interview with _India Strategic_ and at remarks at his annual pre-Air Force Day briefing here October 3, Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha observed that the Indian Air Force (IAF) was “terribly short” of modern aircraft, and that the Government was alive to this.

“The contract negotiations with the French are in process… Our intent is to conclude the agreement at the earliest,” he said. Reliable sources told _India Strategic_ that there were some difficulties in signing the Inter Governmental Agreement (IGA) even after discussions between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his host President Francois Hollande during the Indian leader’s visit to Paris in April, particularly over offsets and some Transfer of Technology (ToT).

And as the process was getting stuck again, Mr Modi went out of the way to telephonically call Mr Hollande in September to address the difficulties from the Indian side, and the French leader showed tremendous goodwill and understanding in helping resolve the situation.

Thanks to the good relations Mr Modi has built with Mr Hollande, Dassault has agreed to 50 per cent offsets, and the discussions are now on fast-track, sources said.

A smiling Air Chief Marshal Raha said that he hoped to get the first squadron of Rafales in two to three years.

Notably, the Indian side deputed IAF’s Deputy Chief, Air Marshal SBP Sinha while the French, Air Marshal Stephane Reb, Director of the International Directorate of the DGA (General Directorate for Armament) of the French Ministry of Defence to conduct and conclude the negotiations. Both have exchanged visits, and the stipulated agreement – the enabler to move forward – will be signed any time, perhaps well before December 2015.

Air Chief Marshal Raha said that the IAF needs at least six squadrons – 126 aircraft – of Rafales or equivalent aircraft in the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) category for frontline operations, and it is to be seen if IAF gets more Rafales or other aircraft. He was asked if there was an option to go in for another machine.

He said he favoured Government-to-Government contracts as they are speedy and devoid of competitive politics, and future acquisitions should go on the same lines.

As for more Rafales, he said “the need is there, and if Costs, Transfer of Technology and Make in India requirements are good, we may get more.”

Asked if there was a choice for the US, Swedish or other aircraft manufacturers to be back in fray, he indicated a possibility but described the Rafale as “a very good aircraft.”

Egypt and Qatar have bought the Rafale while the UAE is considering it, he pointed out.

About the overall deficiency of combat aircraft, Air Chief Marshal Raha said that “50 per cent offset is being sought from the French industrial suppliers as part of the procurement of 36 Rafale aircraft.

“Greater visibility (however) would emerge only after the Indian negotiating team completes the negotiations.”

Air Chief Marshal Raha underlined the importance of Make in India, and pointed out that “the offset implementation under the Rafale project will support” this, adding that some other similar initiatives are also underway in the aviation sector.

It may be recalled that IAF had issued a tender for 126 MMRCAs in 2007, and Rafale emerged as the winner in 2012 in the six-corner contest. But negotiations were bogged down over offsets and responsibility over the quality of production at the state-run HAL, the prime integrator for the aircraft in India. India finally scrapped the deal and Mr Modi personally sought 36 aircraft to meet IAF’s immediate requirements. Further acquisitions are possible, depending upon the conclusion of the current deal.

French sources told this writer during a recent visit to Paris that Dassault’s partners in the Rafale programme, primarily Thales and Safran, were already gearing up their production lines for the Indian order.

Significantly, the French Government has asked Dassault, the designer and integrator of Rafale, to divert requirements of the French Air Force (Armée de l’Air) to Egypt, Qatar and India

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## PARIKRAMA

SR-91 said:


> FGFA = we have wait till december to find out, but the news is 2/3 squadrons off shelf.


I think T50 will be limited to 65 in numbers or perhaps in the range of 60-80 max and we may use the tech help of russianns to augment our AMCA program. Unless IAF brass gets specifically happy after having T50 and PM Modi and President Putin works out something like pulling a rabbit out of hat type magic and India still sticks to huge numbers of FGFA (even 144 types). Unfortunately the MKI line beyond the Super upgrades will be kind of non usable. Looking from that angle if AMCA program replaces that then its fine but i think AMCA may go to a pvt company.. Thus i do believe FGFA program may see some evolution and based on feedback a newer version which will become FGFA and will begin to be mass produced in 2025-30 timeline. In essence i think India may follow Chinese model of having 2 5th gen program simultaneously. One for heavier and one for medium category.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> I think T50 will be limited to 65 in numbers or perhaps in the range of 60-80 max and we may use the tech help of russianns to augment our AMCA program. Unless IAF brass gets specifically happy after having T50 and PM Modi and President Putin works out something like pulling a rabbit out of hat type magic and India still sticks to huge numbers of FGFA (even 144 types). Unfortunately the MKI line beyond the Super upgrades will be kind of non usable. Looking from that angle if AMCA program replaces that then its fine but i think AMCA may go to a pvt company.. Thus i do believe FGFA program may see some evolution and based on feedback a newer version which will become FGFA and will begin to be mass produced in 2025-30 timeline. In essence i think India may follow Chinese model of having 2 5th gen program simultaneously. One for heavier and one for medium category.


I am not at all convinced my friend, the IAF is headset on the FGFA, they simply aren't interested in the PAK-FA/T-50 and to this end they have already allocated some heavy financing to the FGFA specifically. 2025-30 is a very pessimistic timeline but the Russians don't exactly seem to be in a hurry with this project.

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## halloweene

interestingly, at least one Rafale engaged in Bold Quest was shawing markings from experimental Sqd.

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## halloweene

Some nice picture from Marine Nationale

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## PARIKRAMA

halloweene said:


> interestingly, at least one Rafale engaged in Bold Quest was shawing markings from experimental Sqd.


How are you my friend.. Long time

What you mean by experimental squadron?

Btw whats you hearing about rafale deal.. 36 or 80? any news on the progress of make in india 90 jets rfp part?
Air chief is clear about 6 squadrons of rafale jets.. Only thing is when and how.. Seems September beginning PM modi had a talk with President Hollande on rafale deal, any murmurs on what leaders actually talked...

You had said about india getting some UCAV tech from Neuron.. Any idea whats the thing thats planned as part of tech transfer or TOT..


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## halloweene

PARIKRAMA said:


> How are you my friend.. Long time
> 
> What you mean by experimental squadron?
> 
> Btw whats you hearing about rafale deal.. 36 or 80? any news on the progress of make in india 90 jets rfp part?
> Air chief is clear about 6 squadrons of rafale jets.. Only thing is when and how.. Seems September beginning PM modi had a talk with President Hollande on rafale deal, any murmurs on what leaders actually talked...
> 
> You had said about india getting some UCAV tech from Neuron.. Any idea whats the thing thats planned as part of tech transfer or TOT..


Before modifications (new standards etc.), those are tested on some Rafale from the Cote d'Argent Sqd in Istres. I think they have only three planes, but not sure.

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## nik22

India is trolling France


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## Prajapati

nik22 said:


> India is trolling France



I thought France by trolling India  ............ dangle the Rafale in front of us but refusing to share the technology, abusing HAL and demanding ridiculous price.


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## Agent_47

new wallpaper

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## Jai Bharat

Abingdonboy said:


> I am not at all convinced my friend, the IAF is headset on the FGFA, they simply aren't interested in the PAK-FA/T-50 and to this end they have already allocated some heavy financing to the FGFA specifically. 2025-30 is a very pessimistic timeline but the Russians don't exactly seem to be in a hurry with this project.



IAF has not even had the chance to test drive a T-50 yet, and technology is being kept a secret from DRDO scientists, hence the delay in next contract signing.

If it turns out to be a lemon, they are not going to get it. IAF is definitely a stubborn organization compared to Navy. If they don't like it, they won't go for it. F-35 or joint development for Japanese 5th gen might be a possibility. Re-purposing the AMCA to replace FGFA and then inducting more Rafales for strike fighters might be a possibility. As I understand it, the AMCA fulfilled a similar role to the Rafale/Jaguar strike fighers, the LCA to the MiG-21 interceptors, and the FGFA to the Su-30 air superiority. In future is it not possible to go LCA, Rafale, AHCA "heavy AMCA"?


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## SR-91

Guys, guess who is invited as chief guest to the next R-Day in 2016?


India on its next Republic Day will host French President Hollande as Chief Guest. I'm Expecting big announcement on 27th Jan 2016.

Just like Modi invited Obama on its previous R-Day as chief guest, only to see a break thru in India-US Nuclear Deal. Nuclear deal "breakthrough" was announced on 27th Jan 2015.

I Strongly believe Modi will keep this trend and may announce the Rafale deal on 27 Jan 2016. Exactly 3 months from now.

Modi is also schedule to go to Paris in December to attend Climate Change Conference.

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## PARIKRAMA

SR-91 said:


> Guys, guess who is invited as chief guest to the next R-Day in 2016?
> 
> 
> India on its next Republic Day will host French President Hollande as Chief Guest. I'm Expecting big announcement on 27th Jan 2016.
> 
> Just like Modi invited Obama on its previous R-Day as chief guest, only to see a break thru in India-US Nuclear Deal. Nuclear deal "breakthrough" was announced on 27th Jan 2015.
> 
> I Strongly believe Modi will keep this trend and may announce the Rafale deal on 27 Jan 2016. Exactly 3 months from now.
> 
> Modi is also schedule to go to Paris in December to attend Climate Change Conference.



if what u said is true then i think it will be two pronged
1. 36 rafale sign may happen in december (if not in jan of course) in France as its intended for French Domestic masses
2. Make in India part commitment may be in Jan as that will serve better Indian domestic audience response.

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## PARIKRAMA

Cross posting from another forum

Q You know something about an annoncement for, say, 36 firm + 44 options ?
Picdelamirand-oil I was said that the 9 billions was for 80.
(Pic is long associated with Dassault and retired but still has a tight leash on info from corridors of power)

$9 Bn package for 80..with total cost of ownership including everything (weapons infra training etc ) for 40 years

@Abingdonboy @SR-91 Once this info becomes officially known i can tell you the negotiations by Indian side is pretty much bang on target.. I say that team deserves much laurels for making all this happen for 9Bn..effectively each rafale may be around $75 mn only with price of weapon/infra training etc around $2.5-3Bn

thats the same as FAF price in Euros of 2012 (Euro 73 Mn) but with 40 years schedule..

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## Stephen Cohen

@PARIKRAMA 

So the total number is just 80 

But the requirement is for 100 Plus

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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> So the total number is just 80
> 
> But the requirement is for 100 Plus


My dear brother thats off the shelf 80 - 36+44 in 2 tranches in line with Dassault increase in rpoduction to 3 rafales a month
and rest will be make in India.. Come what may, Na Mo will not abandon MII dream of Dassault rafale in India nor Dassault would be foolish to invest 4.5 Bn in staggered basis just to make some falcon jet parts.. Its all falling in place step by step..

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Cross posting from another forum
> 
> Q You know something about an annoncement for, say, 36 firm + 44 options ?
> Picdelamirand-oil I was said that the 9 billions was for 80.
> (Pic is long associated with Dassault and retired but still has a tight leash on info from corridors of power)
> 
> $9 Bn package for 80..with total cost of ownership including everything (weapons infra training etc ) for 40 years
> 
> @Abingdonboy @SR-91 Once this info becomes officially known i can tell you the negotiations by Indian side is pretty much bang on target.. I say that team deserves much laurels for making all this happen for 9Bn..effectively each rafale may be around $75 mn only with price of weapon/infra training etc around $2.5-3Bn
> 
> thats the same as FAF price in Euros of 2012 (Euro 73 Mn) but with 40 years schedule..


That's some deal IF it comes to be. Let's wait for confirmation but this will certainly shut up many naysayers; those predicting only 36 Rafales and calling it overpriced.

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## surya kiran

Abingdonboy said:


> 80 off the shelf and how many made in India then?
> 
> 
> Things are getting more and more complex with every day! The only certainties are the Rafale is coming (not clear just when as of yet) and that 36 will never be the final figure.



My friend, I have told you this earlier and am telling you again. More than 120 Rafales are coming in. It is going to be Reliance. Wait for December. Extra capacity of PakFa is going to be bought for 50 birds, at least. By 2020, Rafale and PakFa will be in the IAF kitty. The threat perception is no longer Pakistan. Hence, the urgency.

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## Abingdonboy

surya kiran said:


> My friend, I have told you this earlier and am telling you again. More than 120 Rafales are coming in. It is going to be Reliance. Wait for December. Extra capacity of PakFa is going to be bought for 50 birds, at least. By 2020, Rafale and PakFa will be in the IAF kitty. The threat perception is no longer Pakistan. Hence, the urgency.


This PAK-FA purchase, will it be similar to the K agreement as per the MKI deal wherein the IAF accepted 1 SQN of Su-30Ks and once the MKI was fully developed the IAF handed them back to the Russians in favour of the full-fledged MKIs?



surya kiran said:


> It is going to be Reliance


Unfortunately this is what I hear also.



PARIKRAMA said:


> @Abingdonboy @SR-91 Once this info becomes officially known i can tell you the negotiations by Indian side is pretty much bang on target.. I say that team deserves much laurels for making all this happen for 9Bn..effectively each rafale may be around $75 mn only with price of weapon/infra training etc around $2.5-3Bn


+ @PARIKRAMA I agree fully, the CNC has done an excellent job and clearly this is at the behest of the PMO. The DM seems to have been cut out of the loop entirely (a wise decision by the PM).

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## surya kiran

Abingdonboy said:


> This PAK-FA purchase, will it be similar to the K agreement as per the MKI deal wherein the IAF accepted 1 SQN of Su-30Ks and once the MKI was fully developed the IAF handed them back to the Russians in favour of the full-fledged MKIs?



Yes. And its going to be more like 3 squadrons.

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## Abingdonboy

surya kiran said:


> Yes. And its going to be more like 3 squadrons.


As long as a similar agreement is in place then I (and more importantly the IAF) am satisfied. This will certainly be a optimal solution to what is a colossal screwup (the FGFA project) to date. This move will take the pressure off the IAF to a large degree and will make them the undisputed rulers of Asian skies by 2022.

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## surya kiran

Abingdonboy said:


> As long as a similar agreement is in place then I (and more importantly the IAF) am satisfied. This will certainly be a optimal solution to what is a colossal screwup (the FGFA project) to date. This move will take the pressure off the IAF to a large degree and will make them the undisputed rulers of Asian skies by 2022.



Do you know what my worry is? IAF will use the single seater version and then turn around and say, oh we dont need 2 seater. More than capable of this.

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## SR-91

PARIKRAMA said:


> if what u said is true then i think it will be two pronged
> 1. 36 rafale sign may happen in december (if not in jan of course) in France as its intended for French Domestic masses
> 2. Make in India part commitment may be in Jan as that will serve better Indian domestic audience response.



Maybe, it has to be one of those dates. But IMO, Modi will hold out for another month and announce it over R-Day visit. 
But hey, if he announces it in December, it's less trolling we have to put up with.

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## Abingdonboy

surya kiran said:


> Do you know what my worry is? IAF will use the single seater version and then turn around and say, oh we dont need 2 seater. More than capable of this.


Either way they need the FGFA.

I suppose their is a risk of them dropping the two-seat requirement once they have the single seat PAK-FA in service. This may be true especially if the FGFA program runs into difficulty in producing a twin seat version- the IAF may have to take a compromise (single seat FGFAs).

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## danger007

Abingdonboy said:


> As long as a similar agreement is in place then I (and more importantly the IAF) am satisfied. This will certainly be a optimal solution to what is a colossal screwup (the FGFA project) to date. This move will take the pressure off the IAF to a large degree and will make them the undisputed rulers of Asian skies by 2022.



may be after 2022.. . yes I agree with you on K theory.... I guess it would be better to go for 3 Sq of Pak-Fa first then customised FGFA... 2 sq of Rafael is not feasible even govt is aware of that..

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## surya kiran

Abingdonboy said:


> This may be true especially if the FGFA program runs into difficulty in producing a twin seat version- the IAF may have to take a compromise (*single seat FGFA*s).


This would be a much more realistic path to take.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> if what u said is true then i think it will be two pronged
> 1. 36 rafale sign may happen in december (if not in jan of course) in France as its intended for French Domestic masses
> 2. Make in India part commitment may be in Jan as that will serve better Indian domestic audience response.


I doubt there will be any defence related news announced during the multilateral climate change conference- it really isn't the done thing. Also, if Hollande is coming in January it makes sense to hold out for then. Also I don't think it makes much sense to break up the deal into components and to announce them separately- this isn't really how these things work. 

R-day 2016 is d-day as far as the Rafale deal is concerned IMHO. If there is no firm agreement by the end of January we should all be bitterly disappointed- the stars appear to be aligning for that timeframe.



surya kiran said:


> This would be a much more realistic path to take.


The FGFA will be the PAK-FA's MKI (i.e. entirely customised for IAF requirements) so it is coming the only question is if it will have a two seat variant.

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## SR-91

PARIKRAMA said:


> Cross posting from another forum
> 
> Q You know something about an annoncement for, say, 36 firm + 44 options ?
> Picdelamirand-oil I was said that the 9 billions was for 80.
> (Pic is long associated with Dassault and retired but still has a tight leash on info from corridors of power)
> 
> $9 Bn package for 80..with total cost of ownership including everything (weapons infra training etc ) for 40 years
> 
> @Abingdonboy @SR-91 Once this info becomes officially known i can tell you the negotiations by Indian side is pretty much bang on target.. I say that team deserves much laurels for making all this happen for 9Bn..effectively each rafale may be around $75 mn only with price of weapon/infra training etc around $2.5-3Bn
> 
> thats the same as FAF price in Euros of 2012 (Euro 73 Mn) but with 40 years schedule..



I was dying to do this at the faces of all naysayers n trollers. Today






$75 MN is really a good price. Negotiation committee did a lot better job than I thought. Credit goes to all those involved.

Rafale saga is now almost finished. @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA u guys ready for trolls on FGFA.

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## Abingdonboy

SR-91 said:


> I was dying to do this at the faces of all naysayers n trollers. Today
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> $75 MN is really a good price. Negotiation committee did a lot better job than I thought. Credit goes to all those involved.
> 
> Rafale saga is now almost finished. @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA u guys ready for trolls on FGFA.


It's not over until the fat lady sings, let's not count our chickens just yet.


+ @SR-91 you are bang on about the fact that the FGFA is about to become the target for the trolls henceforth. Hopefully Modi will pick off both the FGFA and Rafale issues and get them in order in the next few months and give none of these clowns the ammunition. 

I have to hand it to Modi, it appears he has managed to MASSIVELY turn around the fortunes of the IAF's fighter fleet in just over a year (if everything we are predicting comes true @surya kiran @PARIKRAMA )- LCA (with AESA), tick, FGFA/PAK-FA, tick, Rafale, tick.



@Dash @Star Wars @Stephen Cohen your boy might not be so bad after all

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## Star Wars

Abingdonboy said:


> @Dash @Star Wars @Stephen Cohen your boy might not be so bad after all



AbingdonSanghi ?

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## Dash

surya kiran said:


> My friend, I have told you this earlier and am telling you again. More than 120 Rafales are coming in. It is going to be Reliance. Wait for December. Extra capacity of PakFa is going to be bought for 50 birds, at least. By 2020, Rafale and PakFa will be in the IAF kitty. The threat perception is no longer Pakistan. Hence, the urgency.



My dear friend, please forget about 120 Rafale for the time, be sure they are not coming and its NOT Reliance! for god sake!



Abingdonboy said:


> It's not over until the fat lady sings, let's not count our chickens just yet.
> 
> 
> + @SR-91 you are bang on about the fact that the FGFA is about to become the target for the trolls henceforth. Hopefully Modi will pick off both the FGFA and Rafale issues and get them in order in the next few months and give none of these clowns the ammunition.
> 
> I have to hand it to Modi, it appears he has managed to MASSIVELY turn around the fortunes of the IAF's fighter fleet in just over a year (if everything we are predicting comes true @surya kiran @PARIKRAMA )- LCA (with AESA), tick, FGFA/PAK-FA, tick, Rafale, tick.
> 
> 
> 
> @Dash @Star Wars @Stephen Cohen your boy might not be so bad after all




My boy is the right man for this job, and mate I am assuring you that 120 Rafale is not coming.


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## surya kiran

Dash said:


> My dear friend, please forget about 120 Rafale for the time, be sure they are not coming and its NOT Reliance! for god sake!


80 my friend is coming in fly away condition. At-least. Anyways, let's wait and watch. No point speculating for now.

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## Dash

surya kiran said:


> 80 my friend is coming in fly away condition. At-least. Anyways, let's wait and watch. No point speculating for now.


ok buddy, lets wait then

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## GURU DUTT

SR-91 said:


> I was dying to do this at the faces of all naysayers n trollers. Today
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> $75 MN is really a good price. Negotiation committee did a lot better job than I thought. Credit goes to all those involved.
> 
> Rafale saga is now almost finished. @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA u guys ready for trolls on FGFA.


75million$$s for what


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## Abingdonboy

Dash said:


> My boy is the right man for this job, and mate I am assuring you that 120 Rafale is not coming.


So you think the PM/DM are stupid enough to go for a quantity that isn't sufficient for even 2 SQNs? This would be the largest blunder the NDA could pull and they would be ripped apart for it by the opposition and CAG. I don't think any of these 36 Rafale advocates understand that getting 36 units is not the problem but building up the requite support and infrastructure for such a pitiful amount in an AF the size of the IAF with as many airbases as them is not economically viable. Have you heard of economies of scale? It is a very basic concept that simply makes a deal for 36 jets nonsensical. Did you hear the remarks of the ACM? He officially stated the need for a further 6 SQNs of Rafales.

Let me put it this way- the IAF would be better served getting 0 Rafales then in getting anything below 80. Any industry expert will tell you the same.

Is the DM/PM stupid enough to create a white elephant of mammoth proportions for the IAF? Let's see but I don't think they are. Any Modi/NDA fanboy/supporter better hope that 36 is not the final number, if it is they have massively let their nation down.

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## Dukkar

Abingdonboy said:


> So you think the PM/DM are stupid enough to go for a quantity that isn't sufficient for even 2 SQNs? This would be the largest blunder the NDA could pull and they would be ripped apart for it by the opposition and CAG. I don't think any of these 36 Rafale advocates understand that getting 36 units is not the problem but building up the requite support and infrastructure for such a pitiful amount in an AF the size of the IAF with as many airbases as them is not economically viable. Have you heard of economies of scale? It is a very basic concept that simply makes a deal for 36 jets nonsensical. Did you hear the remarks of the ACM? He officially stated the need for a further 6 SQNs of Rafales.
> 
> Let me put it this way- the IAF would be better served getting 0 Rafales then in getting anything below 80. Any industry expert will tell you the same.
> 
> Is the DM/PM stupid enough to create a white elephant of mammoth proportions for the IAF? Let's see but I don't think they are. Any Modi/NDA fanboy/supporter better hope that 36 is not the final number, if it is they have massively let their nation down.


36 it will be,mark my words & bookmark this post .


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## Abingdonboy

Dukkar said:


> 36 it will be,mark my words & bookmark this post .


Based on........?

And can you justify such a pitiful order? Bookmark what you like, it doesn't change the fact that such a move would be beyond stupid.

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## Dash

Abingdonboy said:


> So you think the PM/DM are stupid enough to go for a quantity that isn't sufficient for even 2 SQNs? This would be the largest blunder the NDA could pull and they would be ripped apart for it by the opposition and CAG. I don't think any of these 36 Rafale advocates understand that getting 36 units is not the problem but building up the requite support and infrastructure for such a pitiful amount in an AF the size of the IAF with as many airbases as them is not economically viable. Have you heard of economies of scale? It is a very basic concept that simply makes a deal for 36 jets nonsensical. Did you hear the remarks of the ACM? He officially stated the need for a further 6 SQNs of Rafales.
> 
> Let me put it this way- the IAF would be better served getting 0 Rafales then in getting anything below 80. Any industry expert will tell you the same.
> 
> Is the DM/PM stupid enough to create a white elephant of mammoth proportions for the IAF? Let's see but I don't think they are. Any Modi/NDA fanboy/supporter better hope that 36 is not the final number, if it is they have massively let their nation down.



Raha never officially demanded 6 squadrons, he said he would like to have 6 squadrons and he also said the other 6 squadrons could be made of a Rafale like aircraft. I think that was stupid of him.

36 is not a maintenance nightmare if you look at the airforce in the 80s. and I havent heard any industry expert, heck even IAF officially citing any maintenance problem with it. 

IAF initially started this competition to fill the numbers for migs. Until then they had medium - low combination until they added a heavy fighter Sukhoi 30 MKI. Now they changed operating rules and aded a medium cobination in btn. Sukhio heavy, Rafale medium and erased the low end fighter, which was Tejas, specifically built for ading numbers and operating lowest at the food chain.

Its stupid I will say, that they wont accept Tejas, and still do roona dhona that they are falling short in squadrons. Now tell me mate, how on earth IAF will fill numbers with just Rafale in mind and there was an excercize for additional 60? Their constant argument was they need this fighter for growing Chinese threat (thats why MOD gave them S400 to shut their mouth).

Its all IAF's fault and their love for foreign maal. and Modi supporters have nothing to do with IAF's mistakes. and what Modi is doing is right and I support Modi fully in it. Let me also tell you that Modi is making Army buy 300 Arjun Mk2. Yes you heard me right.


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## Abingdonboy

Dash said:


> Raha never officially demanded 6 squadrons, he said he would like to have 6 squadrons and he also said the other 6 squadrons could be made of a Rafale like aircraft. I think that was stupid of him.


He clearly stated there was a requirement for an additional 6 SQNs of Rafales, the comment about "Rafale-like" a/c is nonsensical but intentional so as to not seem that he was undermining the GoI/MoD's bargaining position. 




Dash said:


> 36 is not a maintenance nightmare if you look at the airforce in the 80s. and I havent heard any industry expert, heck even IAF officially citing any maintenance problem with it.


Comparing the IAF to the force it was in the 80s to how it will be in 2030 or 2040 (the Rafales will serve for 30+ years) is illogical. India was a very different country in the 80s and so was the IAF. The maintenance issues were not so apparent because the IAF understood they could only afford limited numbers and hence had single types per airbase (i.e. all of the Miragee 2000s deployed at Gwalior). But the IAF today wants full spectrum war fighting capability meaning that all their assets can be deployed to any of their geographically dispersed airbases= this would not be feasible for just 36 fighters- Dassualt, the IAF and MoD/PMO know as much.



Dash said:


> IAF initially started this competition to fill the numbers for migs. Until then they had medium - low combination until they added a heavy fighter Sukhoi 30 MKI. Now they changed operating rules and aded a medium cobination in btn. Sukhio heavy, Rafale medium and erased the low end fighter, which was Tejas, specifically built for ading numbers and operating lowest at the food chain.


This is nonsense the IAF has NEVER "erased" the low-end requirement but had pushed forward with other procurements as the LCA matured. The IAF has been consistent for 20+ years, there is none of this doctrinal shift you are talking about. They want a top end air dominance fighter (MKI/FGFA) a light point-defence fighter (LCA) and a long range strike fighter to compliment both (Rafale). Neither the MKI nor the LCA can be considered substitutes for the Rafale, the Rafale is an essential purchase whether you like it or not and it is simply unthinkable to go for a number as low as 36. 

Anyone dreaming about this needs to wake up- it would HARM India's interests. 



Dash said:


> Its stupid I will say, that they wont accept Tejas, and still do roona dhona that they are falling short in squadrons. Now tell me mate, how on earth IAF will fill numbers with just Rafale in mind and there was an excercize for additional 60?



So now the LCA is a substitute for the Rafale? It never was and never will be. The IAF never refused to induct the LCA, they simply insisted it met their AQSRs which it now does. 

The LCA will be in service with 200+ units, the Rafale with 80-120+ (189 perhaps).



Dash said:


> Their constant argument was they need this fighter for growing Chinese threat (thats why MOD gave them S400 to shut their mouth).


Utter, utter hogwash my friend. So now road-mobile SAMs are a substitute to long range fighter jets? Please, this is sheer lunacy and no one is proposing this either in the IAF or MoD.

S400 to "shut up" the IAF- that's a new one!





Dash said:


> what Modi is doing is right and I support Modi fully in it.



Then when Modi announces how many Rafales are *actually* coming I hope you will support him still

@PARIKRAMA bro, you are the best guy to comment.

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## sathya

My guess 

36 initial + 18 optional but conditional  For the offsets of 4.5 billion 

So 54 @ total cost of 9 billion $


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## PARIKRAMA

Practically if we go by what the late September articles on Rafale deal the following points were highlighted.
1. IAF/MOD wants 2 bases of operation
2. Indian weapons integration
3. Numbers changing from 36+18 to officially revealing that IAF wanted 80 flyaway and now latest buzz of 36+44 follow on options
4. Latest being this - _A former senior officer of the Indian Air Force told Defenseworld.net correspondent, “It was expected that the price negotiation will take place within the larger construct of a $ 4.5 billion deal. The other issue was maintainability, which was to follow the Mirage 2000 model of 1985, where the HAL was not the desired agency but the Base Repair Depot of the IAF. There are some problems on both those counts. 
_
Lets consider now each of those points
Point 1 - 2 bases of operation versus 1 base of operation
If the 36 are for SFC Nuke Strike purposes only, creating two bases with roughly 2 squadrons within which trainer and spares are fitted seems a bit illogical. I mean if your AF total squadron strength is X, then logically a minimum of 15-20% of X should be designated for a clear cut N Strike role. Even if i consider the lower threshold of 15% then with 42 squadrons earmarked as basic requirement implies a 6.3 squadrons for dedicated SFC. If i argue saying rest of numbers for SFC will be filled by Su30MKI then a question comes whats the efficacy of using a air superiority flanker with largest RCS announcing its arrival and stating i am carrying the nukes to bomb your $h!t away.....
You see thats where the logic stalls... and you see finally the light that yes we need dedicated fleet of advanced birds which can go deep and deliver the N payload safely.. and we need numbers for that.. thats where the 6.3 sqds numbers crop up..

Now rationally, argument of 18 birds at each base not only multiplies the cost which we are least bothered as we are thinking from SFC purposes, it implies that if those birds are taken out, our N payload capability delivery probability via aircrafts gets down to single digits.. (single digits bcz at emergency times certain birds may be fitted just for the sake to deliver and only workhorse to do that is Su30 MKI.. thats why not zero but single digits).
Another risk is if those 2 bases of operations are taken out those 18 rafales each are practically useless...

What i want to state and point out is that the rafales in 2 bases or a single base is like a showroom with glasses showcasing the car model thereby getting attention.. This attention also implies they are high valued targets and taking them out kind of gives a monstrous advantage to any opposition. Still 2 bases are still better than 1 at least..
But will it not be more logical that we have more rafale squadrons and place them scattered and use these 2 bases only as MRO ops earmarked for Rafales... Meaning 2 squadrons there and rest of other squadrons scattered there by increasing the potency and higher chances of survival and ability to deliver the packages from different bases....

Point 2: Indian weapons integration
Astra Mk1 and Mk2 are the prime candidates here.. A useful question is integration is cost intensive and if we are just having 36 dedicated for SFC then why we should carry astra, the basic package of A2G primary N Bomb and A2A secondary config can be very well taken care by Mica and even Derby ER if not the costly Meteor..Unless, again logically these numbers would rise and having say 10-20 BVR missiles a bird for 36 or for a larger number both indicates a cost spiraling which IAF wants to control. Of course commonality in armaments helps maintenance and local production completely Indian would be economical for sure. Now if its 36 only, i would anytime prefer sureshot French Missiles only and buy 360 Meteors only at 10 meteors per bird. Based on individual config they may carry just 2 or more is different but then i am trying to make a sensible analysis. Again thats not the case here.
Most importantly why Astra Mk1/2 discussion now when Mk2 is not even in serial production and live deployment to any other bird. We could have done that 5-7 years later also right.. Wrong. Unless that forms the basis of reducing the costly BVR missile numbers and planning for Indian BVR with a clear view that a larger fleet will carryy all that instead of a dedicated small fleet carrying costly but sure shot proven missiles.

3. Numbers changing from 36+18 to officially revealing that IAF wanted 80 flyaway and now latest buzz of 36+44 follow on options
Now its true that Dassault had geared up for increase in production rate now for just 24 (Egypt)+ 24 (Qatar) +12 Follow on (Qatar) + 40 French AirForce (180 ordered -140 delivered approx = 40) = 100 rafales and increase in production to almost 30 plus birds a year by 2017 means all order obligations fulfilled by 2019 beginning or 2018 late..
So logically Dassault ramping up may not mean much to us but there are 600 small supply chain companies which at times have lead time of 6-12 months for a part supply in the chain of creating rafale. For meeting this 2.5-3 birds a month productivity, there is going to be a substantial investment. So will they invest (the small players i mean 600 in nos) if Dassault had not guaranteed that such a expansion would benefit them surely. Will French government say we will order 150 more rafales domestically so that production line can go non stop for 5 more years before going either kaput or crawl back to 1 bird a month rate with those 600 supply chain companies getting a descent Return On Investments and avoid filing bankruptcy thereby keeping French acquired Rafales on air non stop.
Thus the increase in production gives an intense opportunity to IAF to get quickly the birds with a chance of getting as much as 1 individual squadron a year or more. Thus the logic of 44 options

Now again another logic - 80 birds is approx 4.44 squadrons - 10% of 42 squadrons.. lower spectrum of N dedicated fleet even less than 15% but still better than 36 birds or 4.76% where erosion and risk is much much higher.

Globally an example i can quote when i did my research on a major P5 nation which had maintained 12+ squadrons for dedicated N Strike with an ability to use 33% of its fleet switched to N missions in case of loss/erosion or wiping of dedicated fleet. And which has the capability to deliver 1/3rd of its total N Arsenal Delivery all during Cold war (rest via ballistic missiles).

Thus my assessment is that 36+18 follow on would be like a true blue white elephant.. A trophy wife just for show. All the above points and many more makes me understand that a much higher figure will only make the investment of time, money and efforts genuinely beneficial for the nation.
Mark my words, if its just 36+18 - CAG will break through NDA with enormous loss of credibility for NaMo. This will be just handing over the power to Congress which will see staus quo till it rules the corridors of power. Why CAG? Simple why will a national auditor agree to costly white elephants which are just for display and which does not meet the adequate response unit for even SFC purposes completely?

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> 2. Indian weapons integration


@PARIKRAMA bro, this point alone proves there are going to be more than 36/36+18 Rafales- no airforce in the world would insist on covering the exorbitant charges of integrating a this party weapon on an off the shelf product nor would any OEM (especially not one of Dassault's stature) agree to such lunacy. A number this small would only entitle you to off the shelf products, no bespoke models, no add-ons- as is (like the Egyptian Rafales). 

It is all pointing to a BIG Rafale buy.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Official confirmation and perhaps indication of Hollande visit and rafale signing.*

Le Rafale "se rapproche" de son premier contrat en Inde - Challenges.fr

*The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India*

*The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India, said Tuesday the CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier.*

*




*
*The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India, assured Tuesday, November 3 CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, receiving the prize of "Industrial of the Year" awarded by the magazine Usine Nouvelle. *

*"With the India, the most important word, is patience," said EricTrappier. *

*"I think we approach the goal with a first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others later."*

*"I am quite optimistic on signing fast enough," he added, estimating that a fourth export contract for the Rafale could be earned next year.*

*"I think there will be a fourth contract that will materialize next year," he said, warning however that "nothing is as it is not signed." Eric Trappier received the award on the occasion of Audience Industry organized by the magazine.*

*The French fighter won two contracts this year, its first export sales, with 24 aircraft sold to Egypt earlier this year, and 24 in Qatar. Negotiations are underway since April between the French and Indian governments for the purchase of 36 Rafale.*

*(With AFP)*

@SR-91 @Abingdonboy @Dash @Star Wars @Stephen Cohen

"I think we approach the goal with a first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others later."

This statement means a 100 words.. is nt it?

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## GURU DUTT

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Official confirmation and perhaps indication of Hollande visit and rafale signing.*
> 
> Le Rafale "se rapproche" de son premier contrat en Inde - Challenges.fr
> 
> *The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India*
> 
> *The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India, said Tuesday the CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier.*
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India, assured Tuesday, November 3 CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, receiving the prize of "Industrial of the Year" awarded by the magazine Usine Nouvelle. *
> 
> *"With the India, the most important word, is patience," said EricTrappier. *
> 
> *"I think we approach the goal with a first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others later."*
> 
> *"I am quite optimistic on signing fast enough," he added, estimating that a fourth export contract for the Rafale could be earned next year.*
> 
> *"I think there will be a fourth contract that will materialize next year," he said, warning however that "nothing is as it is not signed." Eric Trappier received the award on the occasion of Audience Industry organized by the magazine.*
> 
> *The French fighter won two contracts this year, its first export sales, with 24 aircraft sold to Egypt earlier this year, and 24 in Qatar. Negotiations are underway since April between the French and Indian governments for the purchase of 36 Rafale.*
> 
> *(With AFP)*
> 
> @SR-91 @Abingdonboy @Dash @Star Wars @Stephen Cohen
> 
> "I think we approach the goal with a first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others later."
> 
> This statement means a 100 words.. is nt it?


no matter what they say at the most if rafale makes the cut it wont be more than 4 squads period ... baki lagge raho

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## raktaka

PARIKRAMA said:


> "I *think* we approach the goal with a first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others later."
> 
> This statement means a 100 words.. is nt it?



Sure it does. 

Its a desperate HOPE build on greed that his company may get the opportunity to sell more planes if everything goes the way they want it too. 

Kind of him to share his THOUGHT.



GURU DUTT said:


> no matter what they say at the most if rafale makes the cut it wont be more than 4 squads period ... baki lagge raho



For the moment its only 2 squads. Everything else is just mental masturbation.

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## GURU DUTT

raktaka said:


> Sure it does.
> 
> Its a desperate HOPE build on greed that his company may get the opportunity to sell more planes if everything goes the way they want it too.
> 
> Kind of him to share his THOUGHT.
> 
> 
> 
> For the moment its only 2 squads. Everything else is just mental masturbation.


janab i was just answering the other person who things some 6 squads of rafale will join IAF well fact is 36=two squads are orderred now with a possibilty of repeating the same order rest all are just fancies point is MOD is not going to spend too much on rafales

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## SR-91

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Official confirmation and perhaps indication of Hollande visit and rafale signing.*
> 
> Le Rafale "se rapproche" de son premier contrat en Inde - Challenges.fr
> 
> *The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India*
> 
> *The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India, said Tuesday the CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier.*
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India, assured Tuesday, November 3 CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, receiving the prize of "Industrial of the Year" awarded by the magazine Usine Nouvelle. *
> 
> *"With the India, the most important word, is patience," said EricTrappier. *
> 
> *"I think we approach the goal with a first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others later."*
> 
> *"I am quite optimistic on signing fast enough," he added, estimating that a fourth export contract for the Rafale could be earned next year.*
> 
> *"I think there will be a fourth contract that will materialize next year," he said, warning however that "nothing is as it is not signed." Eric Trappier received the award on the occasion of Audience Industry organized by the magazine.*
> 
> *The French fighter won two contracts this year, its first export sales, with 24 aircraft sold to Egypt earlier this year, and 24 in Qatar. Negotiations are underway since April between the French and Indian governments for the purchase of 36 Rafale.*
> 
> *(With AFP)*
> 
> @SR-91 @Abingdonboy @Dash @Star Wars @Stephen Cohen
> 
> "I think we approach the goal with a first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others later."
> 
> This statement means a 100 words.. is nt it?



I'm so waiting for Jan 27. The day this Rafale saga ends. Writing is on the wall but these people can't see it.

@PARIKRAMA that was ONE of ur best explanation up there. I always enjoy reading ur posts. Thanks for writing a BOOK.

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## Abingdonboy

GURU DUTT said:


> no matter what they say at the most if rafale makes the cut it wont be more than 4 squads period ... baki lagge raho


4 SQNs makes even less sense than 2 OR 6. There is some justification for believing 36 only because the PM had initiated this himself (but all he said was this number was to meet the *immediate* needs of the IAF and, as per an agreement with the French govt, would be delivered ASAP- did he say this was the final figure?) BUT 4 SQNs is an entirely arbitrary figure and when the ACM has officially stated the requirement for 6 SQNs of Rafales I don't see where 4 comes from.



raktaka said:


> For the moment its only 2 squads. Everything else is just mental masturbation.



Oh come on, 36 jets are NOT even for 2 SQNs (including war reserves). I'm sorry, but I can't take anyone who honestly buys this number as the final number seriously. The ONLY reason anyone is parroting this 36 figure is because of the exact wording the PM used some 6 months ago. Since then the ACM has categorically stated figures to the contrary AND Dassualt have made plans for far more to be sold in India INCLUDING some to be built in India. It is absolutely no secret that Dassualt have been holding talks with a number of Indian private entities in this regard and @PARIKRAMA has given his own experience on the financing of such an enterprise (this is not mere fiction).



raktaka said:


> Sure it does.
> 
> Its a desperate HOPE build on greed that his company may get the opportunity to sell more planes if everything goes the way they want it too.
> 
> Kind of him to share his THOUGHT


+ @GURU DUTT guys, pray tell me what the IAF is going to do to address the distinct paucity of strike aircraft in its inventory if you are sticking to the nonsensical (IMHO) 2 SQN figure as being final? And you are barred from using more LCA, MKI or FGFA (a paper plane to this day btw) as an option because NONE are long range strike aircraft even remotely as capable as the Rafale in this regard. Nor are you allowed to speculate about a second type of aircraft (F-18, F-16, Gripen, MiG-35, Gripen etc etc) being inducted for the exact same role as the Rafale to operate alongside it- this is just NEVER going to happen and can be ruled out entirely.


Let me paint the picture that will exist a decade from now (2025):

1) Jaguar DARIN IIIs will be in service but with limited utility outside of CAS with the emergence of sophisticated AD systems on both the India's troubled borders.
2) Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s (a true multi-role aircraft with significant strike capabilities but with a single engine and relatively small airframe is no long-range strike a/c) and MiG-29UPG will be entering the final stages of their lives (will be out of service in 2030)
3) The Air dominance "Super" Su-30MKIs number around 300
4) Around 150 (hopefully more with a parallel production line coming online in the near future) LCAs (Mk.1/Mk.1P/Mk.2) are in service
5) *Best case scenario *2 SQNs of next generation air dominance FGFAs are in service but have only recently been inducted and perhaps their combat doctrine is not even established by TACDE as of yet.

By 2030 the situation is similar, numbers of the LCA and FGFA have changed (irrelevant in the strike context) but the Mirages are gone. *Perhaps* the AMCA (to be a replacement for the Jaguars and Mig-27s- so a strike fighter) is _just_ entering service but at this point (2030) I doubt even 1 operational SQN of AMCA will exist- forget about being fully integrated into the combat doctrine of the IAF (TACDE's forte).

And, let me get this right, you guys are expecting the ENTIRE long range strike capability against two capable adversaries (oh and fighter-borne nuclear delivery duties) of the IAF (the 3rd largest AF in the world by then- charged with securing the skies of a $5TN USD economy (by 2025)) to consist of only *36-72 *airframes (leave aside all the associated logistical/maintenance complications, and costs, associated with such a limited number)???

This is without stating the obvious such as the PLAAF would have taken and ENORMOUS step forward by then and the PAF won't have stood still either.


This is some truly unfathomable logic.

The 4.5++ Rafale with AESA, proven deep strike capabilities, a world class (perhaps unparalleled right now in the world and will certainly be in the region for over a decade) data fusion suite and a clear and well funded future growth road map is simply the way to go and in big numbers. The Rafale will compliment the MKI/FGFA and LCAs perfectly and will be truly lethal machines beyond at least 2035.

The more I look at it, the more I am thinking even 126-189 would be far too few (these were figures the IAF came up with in the mid 2000s, the threat matrix has changed significantly- for the worse) AND the FGFA's induction date has been pushed back to the point it is unclear when it will enter service but it certainly won't be before 2022.



@MilSpec @Koovie @SR-91 @anant_s @Aminroop

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## anant_s

Abingdonboy said:


> 4 SQNs makes even less sense than 2 OR 6. There is some justification for believing 36 only because the PM had initiated this himself (but all he said was this number was to meet the *immediate* needs of the IAF and, as per an agreement with the French govt, would be delivered ASAP- did he say this was the final figure?) BUT 4 SQNs is an entirely arbitrary figure and when the ACM has officially stated the requirement for 6 SQNs of Rafales I don't see where 4 comes from.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh come on, 36 jets are NOT even for 2 SQNs (including war reserves). I'm sorry, but I can't take anyone who honestly buys this number as the final number seriously. The ONLY reason anyone is parroting this 36 figure is because of the exact wording the PM used some 6 months ago. Since then the ACM has categorically stated figures to the contrary AND Dassualt have made plans for far more to be sold in India INCLUDING some to be built in India. It is absolutely no secret that Dassualt have been holding talks with a number of Indian private entities in this regard and @PARIKRAMA has given his own experience on the financing of such an enterprise (this is not mere fiction).
> 
> 
> + @GURU DUTT guys, pray tell me what the IAF is going to do to address the distinct paucity of strike aircraft in its inventory if you are sticking to the nonsensical (IMHO) 2 SQN figure as being final? And you are barred from using more LCA, MKI or FGFA (a paper plane to this day btw) as an option because NONE are long range strike aircraft even remotely as capable as the Rafale in this regard. Nor are you allowed to speculate about a second type of aircraft (F-18, F-16, Gripen, MiG-35, Gripen etc etc) being inducted for the exact same role as the Rafale to operate alongside it- this is just NEVER going to happen and can be ruled out entirely.
> 
> 
> Let me paint the picture that will exist a decade from now (2025):
> 
> 1) Jaguar DARIN IIIs will be in service but with limited utility outside of CAS with the emergence of sophisticated AD systems on both the India's troubled borders.
> 2) Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s (a true multi-role aircraft with significant strike capabilities but with a single engine and relatively small airframe is no long-range strike a/c) and MiG-29UPG will be entering the final stages of their lives (will be out of service in 2030)
> 3) The Air dominance "Super" Su-30MKIs number around 300
> 4) Around 150 (hopefully more with a parallel production line coming online in the near future) LCAs (Mk.1/Mk.1P/Mk.2) are in service
> 5) *Best case scenario *2 SQNs of next generation air dominance FGFAs are in service but have only recently been inducted and perhaps their combat doctrine is not even established by TACDE as of yet.
> 
> By 2030 the situation is similar, numbers of the LCA and FGFA have changed (irrelevant in the strike context) but the Mirages are gone. *Perhaps* the AMCA (to be a replacement for the Jaguars and Mig-27s- so a strike fighter) is _just_ entering service but at this point (2030) I doubt even 1 operational SQN of AMCA will exist- forget about being fully integrated into the combat doctrine of the IAF (TACDE's forte).
> 
> And, let me get this right, you guys are expecting the ENTIRE long range strike capability against two capable adversaries (oh and fighter-borne nuclear delivery duties) of the IAF (the 3rd largest AF in the world by then- charged with securing the skies of a $5TN USD economy (by 2025)) to consist of only *36-72 *airframes (leave aside all the associated logistical/maintenance complications, and costs, associated with such a limited number)???
> 
> This is without stating the obvious such as the PLAAF would have taken and ENORMOUS step forward by then and the PAF won't have stood still either.
> 
> 
> This is some truly unfathomable logic.
> 
> The 4.5++ Rafale with AESA, proven deep strike capabilities, a world class (perhaps unparalleled right now in the world and will certainly be in the region for over a decade) data fusion suite and a clear and well funded future growth road map is simply the way to go and in big numbers. The Rafale will compliment the MKI/FGFA and LCAs perfectly and will be truly lethal machines beyond at least 2035.
> 
> The more I look at it, the more I am thinking even 126-189 would be far too few (these were figures the IAF came up with in the mid 2000s, the threat matrix has changed significantly- for the worse) AND the FGFA's induction date has been pushed back to the point it is unclear when it will enter service but it certainly won't be before 2022.
> 
> 
> 
> @MilSpec @Koovie @SR-91 @anant_s @Aminroop


Dassault is trying to tie up with a private player to set up for a possible manufacturing line and that tells the figure of 36 is an Ad hoc figure and certainly the requirement is far more.
another thing, you mentioned about difference of roles. LCA wil be a point defence fighter and given that the new fighter will have to cater to replacement of entire Mikoyan Gurevich series by 2030, the number certainly is higher than 36.
As for FGFA, just my HO but i think final numbers in IAF inventory will depend largely on J 31 and its ppossible sale to Pakistan.
150 or more Rafales are possibly minimum requirement.

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## sathya

How much will it cost approximately ?

For the whole deal.

To be fair, we must know the life cycle costs and compare it with sukhoi to know how expensive or cheap these birds are.

Bringing reliance into it , will cost more than giving it to HAL ( my gut feeling )

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## Dash

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Official confirmation and perhaps indication of Hollande visit and rafale signing.*
> 
> Le Rafale "se rapproche" de son premier contrat en Inde - Challenges.fr
> 
> *The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India*
> 
> *The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India, said Tuesday the CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier.*
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India, assured Tuesday, November 3 CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, receiving the prize of "Industrial of the Year" awarded by the magazine Usine Nouvelle. *
> 
> *"With the India, the most important word, is patience," said EricTrappier. *
> 
> *"I think we approach the goal with a first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others later."*
> 
> *"I am quite optimistic on signing fast enough," he added, estimating that a fourth export contract for the Rafale could be earned next year.*
> 
> *"I think there will be a fourth contract that will materialize next year," he said, warning however that "nothing is as it is not signed." Eric Trappier received the award on the occasion of Audience Industry organized by the magazine.*
> 
> *The French fighter won two contracts this year, its first export sales, with 24 aircraft sold to Egypt earlier this year, and 24 in Qatar. Negotiations are underway since April between the French and Indian governments for the purchase of 36 Rafale.*
> 
> *(With AFP)*
> 
> @SR-91 @Abingdonboy @Dash @Star Wars @Stephen Cohen
> 
> "I think we approach the goal with a first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others later."
> 
> This statement means a 100 words.. is nt it?



It does, but I am not hopeful much. Good if it happens though.

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## anant_s

sathya said:


> Bringing reliance into it , will cost more than giving it to HAL ( my gut feeling )


 i think the idea here is parallel production.
Su 30 MKI program will wrap up by 2018-19 (provided no new orders) and then LCA and FGFA should enter production. Accommodating Rafale could be difficult here and perhaps thats why we need a private contractor.
Even with submarine projects in next decade government is keen to rope in private shipyards which again leads to capacity creation without capital budget.
In it looks a really far reaching decision for future.
In true sense if Make in India program is approached and implemented properly, we will not only see speedy delivery of product but also huge generation of jobs and encouragement to entrepreneurs.

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## sathya

anant_s said:


> i think the idea here is parallel production.
> Su 30 MKI program will wrap up by 2018-19 (provided no new orders) and then LCA and FGFA should enter production. Accommodating Rafale could be difficult here and perhaps thats why we need a private contractor.
> Even with submarine projects in next decade government is keen to rope in private shipyards which again leads to capacity creation without capital budget.
> In it looks a really far reaching decision for future.
> In true sense if Make in India program is approached and implemented properly, we will not only see speedy delivery of product but also huge generation of jobs and encouragement to entrepreneurs.



Parallel production speeds up,
but reliance have to start from scratch that will take time
They will do only for profit, will arm twist for larger margins that again will cost more

For eg 200million $ a bird from dassault -> 250 million $ from HAL -> 300 million from reliance 

Now how fast are we going to procure from reliance to shell out the extra money.

Instead we can outsource LCA to reliable private player ( here we can choose private player unlike rafale where dassault will choose it).

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## Taygibay

Abingdonboy said:


> I have to hand it to Modi, it appears he has managed to MASSIVELY turn around the fortunes of the IAF's fighter fleet in just over a year


It also appears he did it by doing something impossible when two Indians or more are involved :
taking decisions!
​


PARIKRAMA said:


> This statement means a 100 words.. is nt it?


Especially if you read it carefully : *its first contract in India*
I won't have the gall to teach maths to Indians but first implies more.
​


Abingdonboy said:


> The more I look at it, the more I am thinking even 126-189 would be far too few


Answered below before I got to it :


anant_s said:


> 150 or more Rafales are possibly minimum requirement.


​


sathya said:


> They will do only for profit, will arm twist for larger margins that again will cost more
> 
> For eg 200million $ a bird from dassault -> 250 million $ from HAL -> 300 million from reliance


Not at all, here's why!

Dassault clears a profit at 200M$. They'll teach Reliance to do so easily exactly due to greed.
As soon as Reliance operates the plant as well as Dassault does, they make as much money!

_Doesn't that take money out of Dassault's pocket which it won't agree to?_ - you may ask.
Yes but then again that's your 50% offset right there . . . and . . .
the money will be made back on the numbers going up from 36 to …
Integration of Indian weapons for example that some clear minds pointed out as only coherent with a bigger buy
is money that almost reverses back 100% to Dassault. Voilà, even steven!

Good day all, Tay.

P.S. Congrats Parik, you got my first on account of my fondness for coherent thinking!

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## raktaka

Abingdonboy said:


> Oh come on, 36 jets are NOT even for 2 SQNs (including war reserves). I'm sorry, but I can't take anyone who honestly buys this number as the final number seriously. The ONLY reason anyone is parroting this 36 figure is because of the exact wording the PM used some 6 months ago. Since then the ACM has categorically stated figures to the contrary AND Dassualt have made plans for far more to be sold in India INCLUDING some to be built in India. It is absolutely no secret that Dassualt have been holding talks with a number of Indian private entities in this regard and @PARIKRAMA has given his own experience on the financing of such an enterprise (this is not mere fiction).



I am not interested in your OPINIONS or desires. Same goes to the "opinions" of other armchair experts. 

If you have any RECENT link that says more than 36 will be purchased, post it. or else keep your peace.


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## Taygibay

raktaka said:


> I am not interested in your OPINIONS or desires. Same goes to the "opinions" of other armchair experts.
> _- Then what the heck are you doing on a forum???_
> 
> If you have any RECENT link that says more than 36 will be purchased, post it. *or else keep your peace.*
> _- He could very reasonably ask the same of you!_



There, fixed that for you my young friend.
Keep calm and have a great day, Tay.

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## raktaka

Taygibay said:


> There, fixed that for you my young friend.
> Keep calm and have a great day, Tay.



Seeking facts and opinion based on facts supported by links. 

Your unsolicited help is very generous ...... almost as generous as your offer to sell us Rafale


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## Taygibay

*^^^*
Yeah, I deplore the absence of links in general too but it happens over long convos that the links are
there albeit a few pages back.

And I swear to you that I am not personally going to make money out of that deal.
 . . . of course if Dassault wants to send me a Rafale watch or flight jacket or model even, I'll accept it! 

Read you later, Tay.

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## Dash

Abingdonboy said:


> He clearly stated there was a requirement for an additional 6 SQNs of Rafales, the comment about "Rafale-like" a/c is nonsensical but intentional so as to not seem that he was undermining the GoI/MoD's bargaining position.



In July he said we need 80 Rafales, in October he says he needs 6 squadrons. He sounds confused. But thats not the point here. The point that needs attention is what is IAF's (A subset of India's requirement) is. Falling numbers (squadron strength) or operational gaps (High-MID-Low combo). Here both seems to be equally important. but one has to be prioritised. In such a case what seems to be the issue herethat IAF has prioritized both, while MoD has prioritized Operational gap and then numbers. This 36 is for the operational gaps, which once added will help IAF in filling that gap for sometimeuntill GOI finds an alternative. FGFA or AMCA, LCA Mk2. There are options available.

There is also another issue, where if you seal the deal for 126 Acs then you have to committ half of teh money while signing, meaning less funds for additional shopping in the budget year. The MoD and PMO got it right by spreading the expenditure evenly.



Abingdonboy said:


> Comparing the IAF to the force it was in the 80s to how it will be in 2030 or 2040 (the Rafales will serve for 30+ years) is illogical. India was a very different country in the 80s and so was the IAF. The maintenance issues were not so apparent because the IAF understood they could only afford limited numbers and hence had single types per airbase (i.e. all of the Miragee 2000s deployed at Gwalior). But the IAF today wants full spectrum war fighting capability meaning that all their assets can be deployed to any of their geographically dispersed airbases= this would not be feasible for just 36 fighters- Dassualt, the IAF and MoD/PMO know as much.



Agreed. They can be based out of a single airbase, not an issue for maintainance.



Abingdonboy said:


> This is nonsense the IAF has NEVER "erased" the low-end requirement but had pushed forward with other procurements as the LCA matured. The IAF has been consistent for 20+ years, there is none of this doctrinal shift you are talking about. They want a top end air dominance fighter (MKI/FGFA) a light point-defence fighter (LCA) and a long range strike fighter to compliment both (Rafale). Neither the MKI nor the LCA can be considered substitutes for the Rafale, the Rafale is an essential purchase whether you like it or not and it is simply unthinkable to go for a number as low as 36.
> 
> Anyone dreaming about this needs to wake up- it would HARM India's interests.



On paper they never did, but they did so by sytematicaly by their lack of focus on LCA. I dont blame IAF here. ADA is also to be blamed equally. But IAF could have accepted LCA in its current config, with a little higher number than 40. Could have been welcome step for ADA, HAL as further confidence booster. Like I said, they keep crying about falling numbers, but they expect GOI to do some miracle to fill that number, like committing all the resource to buy a foreign fighter. IAF _khush._



Abingdonboy said:


> So now the LCA is a substitute for the Rafale? It never was and never will be. The IAF never refused to induct the LCA, they simply insisted it met their AQSRs which it now does.
> 
> The LCA will be in service with 200+ units, the Rafale with 80-120+ (189 perhaps).



Mate, they wanted additional Mirages, that time where was Rafale?, since the French offered an advanced version they opened up competition. LCA was not even in picture then, heck not even Rafale!, it was MIrage 200 in IAF's mind. Do you see where they messed up?




Abingdonboy said:


> Utter, utter hogwash my friend. So now road-mobile SAMs are a substitute to long range fighter jets? Please, this is sheer lunacy and no one is proposing this either in the IAF or MoD.
> 
> S400 to "shut up" the IAF- that's a new one!



Yes, its a new one, but the idea has merit.



Abingdonboy said:


> Then when Modi announces how many Rafales are *actually* coming I hope you will support him still



Yes.

and regarding CAG, they might question this, but the idea has merit. Remember this is a govt to govt deal. India holds better bargaining power with French govt than Dassult.
I am not against more Rafales, I am trying to explain that MoD's approach is in the right direction.


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## anant_s

@Taygibay 
off topic:
is that an real image of F22 in HUD with missile lock in your DP?

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## Dash

Wont say off topic, but some info on what M Parikar is doing in MOD.

_______________
Cut your coat according to your cloth. That’s the loud and clear message Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has sent out to the three armed forces. In less than six months after taking over, Parrikar has studied various complex issues dogging the Defence Ministry and has come to his own conclusions on what needs to be done. By his own admission, Parrikar spent the first four months as defence minister taking inputs from a range of experts both within and outside the MoD before making up his mind.
The first thing he said he realised, was the mismatch that existed between various acquisition plans of the three armed forces and the availability of funds. “Many grand plans were made without taking the budget into consideration,” he told me.

During a couple of on-camera and off-camera (but on record) conversations, Parrikar talked to me about how the planning for the much-touted Mountain Strike Corps (MSC) was faulty._ “The need for acquiring an offensive capability against the Chinese was projected (and sanctioned) but not the funds. I will not go into who is responsible for this faulty planning and projection but the fact is, they (the army) was using war reserves to equip the Mountain Strike Corps. Fortunately, we realised the mistake early and I can assure you that the reserves have not depleted to a level where it can be termed alarming. After a review, we have realised that the MSC will have to be frozen at a point where it is now..”_
Later, in another interview to _Hindustan Times_, he confirmed the actual figures. “I have frozen the cost at Rs 38,000 crore over the next eight years. It will consist of 35,000 men,” the Defence Minister said. So from 70,000 men and Rs 88,000 crore, Parrikar has made the Army cut the size of the MSC down to almost 50 percent. And rightly so, since funds are not infinite.

*Indeed, the biggest example of Parrikar’s dictum is the decision on the purchase of 36 Rafale combat jets from France. “The Air Force may want 126 Rafales and I may want to give them 500 but where are the funds? We have to be realistic. So why not go for LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) Tejas, Mark II made in India which will save us some money and give a boost to the indigenous aerospace industry? At the same time, we understood that the IAF needed the Rafale jets, so I went to the Prime Minister, who took a very bold political decision. This proves that important acquisitions have to be made at the government-to-government level,” he said*.
Rafale and MSC are two big ticket items that have been cut down according to the availability of funds, but in his review, Parrikar also found that the bureaucracy in the ministry — both civil and military — was sitting on some 400-odd big and small projects that are critical to the three armed forces. Without getting into details, he said, “The first thing I did was to look at projects that are stuck at various stages of clearances since the most common complaint across the board was ‘nothing moves’ in the MoD.” A thorough review revealed that nearly one-third of the 400-odd projects were now irrelevant. So they were discarded. About 50 projects were accelerated since they were of critical importance.

The next step was to prioritise the projects. Over the past month, Parrikar and his closest aides have managed to identify critical schemes across the three services that needed immediate funding and implementation. *The purchase of 50,000 bullet proof jackets, for instance, was sanctioned on a fast track basis once it was realised that troops involved in counter-terrorism, counter-insurgency operations were facing a severe shortage*. *Similarly, a small bureaucratic standoff had held up supply of *Extreme High Altitude Clothing* (for soldiers posted in Siachen and similar terrain) for more than two years. Parrikar personally intervened and resolved the issue, he said.*

But more than anything else, the former Goa Chief Minister seems to have brought in a sense of purpose in the notoriously risk-averse MoD. Without directly criticising India’s longest serving Defence Minister AK Antony, Parrikar said that the ministry was rudderless for a long period. “There was no control over the system. There were no reviews, no feedback and there was no fear of punishment for non-performance. An important ministry like Defence cannot run like this,” Parrikar remarked. Elsewhere too he has spoken on how ineffective supervision led to the mess that the three armed forces find themselves in. *A case in point is the freedom and impunity with which the *Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd* (HAL) operated in recent times, not meeting deadlines, obfuscating performance and delaying critical projects for the IAF. Under Parrikar however, HAL and other leading defence Public Sector Undertakings are now subject to fortnightly reviews and so is the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). Perform or perish is the new mantra in the defence ministry.*

The bottom line, according to the minister, an IIT Powai graduate and a voracious reader, is that people elect politicians to take a firm decisions. “Out of let’s say 10 decisions I take, five may be good, two may be average and three may turn out to be big mistakes but as long as the decisions are taken in good faith, I am willing to take them,” Parrikar told me. It’s an attitude that is not only refreshing but also reassuring. But his job has only begun. As I *wrote earlier*, the defence minister has a steep mountain to climb. He has only taken the first few steps towards ascending the summit.

Perform or perish is the new mantra in the Defence Ministry | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

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## raktaka

Taygibay said:


> *^^^*
> Yeah, I deplore the absence of links in general too but it happens over long convos that the links are
> there albeit a few pages back.
> 
> And I swear to you that I am not personally going to make money out of that deal.
> . . . of course if Dassault wants to send me a Rafale watch or flight jacket or model even, I'll accept it!
> 
> Read you later, Tay.



And I feel equally certain you stand to gain something from trying to swing public opinion in favour of Rafale.  Still that is your business and there is no reason why you should not have an agenda. 

Now that we have both got that cleared, let us stick to verifiable facts.


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## sathya

Taygibay said:


> It also appears he did it by doing something impossible when two Indians or more are involved :
> taking decisions!
> ​
> 
> Especially if you read it carefully : *its first contract in India*
> I won't have the gall to teach maths to Indians but first implies more.
> ​
> 
> Answered below before I got to it :
> 
> ​
> 
> Not at all, here's why!
> 
> Dassault clears a profit at 200M$. They'll teach Reliance to do so easily exactly due to greed.
> As soon as Reliance operates the plant as well as Dassault does, they make as much money!
> 
> Doesn't that take money out of Dassault's pocket which it won't agree to? - you may ask.
> Yes but then again that,s your 50% offset right there . . . and . . .
> the money will be made back on the numbers going up from 36 to …
> Integration of Indian weapons for example that some clear minds pointed out as only coherent with a bigger buy
> is money that almost reverses back 100% to Dassault. Voilà, even steven!
> 
> Good day all, Tay.
> 
> P.S. Congrats Parik, you got my first on account of my fondness for coherent thinking!




I hope indian government doesn't sacrifice 4.5billion $ for the reliance , thinking that they will get a bird at 200 million , 
And pay 300 million at the end.

Reliance have greater influence in political circles , I will be surprised if they deliver rafale at the same cost of dassault.


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## Abingdonboy

Dash said:


> This 36 is for the operational gaps, which once added will help IAF in filling that gap for sometimeuntill GOI finds an alternative. FGFA or AMCA, LCA Mk2. There are options available.


I have asked someone to come up with an alternative- this is the real world, let's not dream up some extravagant plan that will never take place. The simplest solutions are often the best. As I have pointed out- the FGFA and LCA are NOT substitutes for the Rafale, they are air dominance and pint defence aircraft respectively. They have multi-role capabilities sure but that doesn't change the limitations they have fundamentally making them unable to match the Rafale as a long range strike fighter.

500 LCAs and 500 FGFA in service would still present a large requirement for Rafales (or a similar a/c)- you can play around with these numbers are much as you like it means nothing, the capability gap will remain- the IAF (and MoD) know this. 




Dash said:


> There is also another issue, where if you seal the deal for 126 Acs then you have to committ half of teh money while signing, meaning less funds for additional shopping in the budget year. The MoD and PMO got it right by spreading the expenditure evenly.


Inaccurate, it is 10% upfront and the rest of the cost paid for in instalments over 10-15 years this was the stipulations for the original MMRCA, now with a govt-govt agreement the GoI/CNC may have got an even sweeter deal.



Dash said:


> Agreed. They can be based out of a single airbase, not an issue for maintainance.


Severely limiting the capabilities of the aircraft and IAF as a whole. This makes sense from an economic perspective but is against the IAF's plans/doctrine and hence is not what is being discussed.




Dash said:


> Mate, they wanted additional Mirages, that time where was Rafale?, since the French offered an advanced version they opened up competition. LCA was not even in picture then, heck not even Rafale!, it was MIrage 200 in IAF's mind. Do you see where they messed up?


Well if you actually put a timeline on the 126 MRCA---->MMRCA (with 6 competing fighters) it makes a lot more sense. The original 126 Mirage 2000 idea cam in the very early 2000s (2000/2001) directly off the back of the 1999 Kargil war wear the Mirages had performed impressively. Back then the IAF was very low on true multi-role aircraft (the Mirage was basically it) so instinctively they had placed a rather limited RFI for, basically, the Mirage 2000 in numbers 126-189. Given the size of this deal the MoD/GoI wanted to extract the maximum utility for India's aerospace sector from it as such the competition became just as focused on the industrial benefits as the fighters themselves. The Mirage 2000 production line had closed by the time the procurement process was officially launched in around 2007 (now christened the MMRCA) with a revised set of (very exacting) ASQRs and industrial requirements and the rest is history...

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## Taygibay

@anant_s Yes! 

@raktaka Think as you may. 

@sathya Re-read my answer : the incentive comes from making profit or not. 

@all Good afternoon, Tay.

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## halloweene

anant_s said:


> @Taygibay
> off topic:
> is that an real image of F22 in HUD with missile lock in your DP?


It is not a HUD image, but OSF image. Aside ATLC 2009

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## Taygibay

^^^
Yup so real image there with "pointer" and yes, the exercise is correct too. 

Bonsoir chez vous, Tay.


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## anant_s

halloweene said:


> It is not a HUD image, but OSF image. Aside ATLC 2009


and if i may ask which plane was chasing Raptor?

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## Taygibay

OSF should have given it up, @anant_s : the only plane equipped with it being the Raffy.

GN Tay

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## anant_s

Taygibay said:


> the only plane equipped with it being the Raffy.
> 
> GN Tay


no wonder the fan following for Rafale

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## Dash

I would like to stress upon these two points you have mentioned.



Abingdonboy said:


> Back then the IAF was very low on true multi-role aircraft (the Mirage was basically it)



Lets see how many in the world actually use multirole fighters?. France, as Rafale is only true multirole fighter available. And precisely so they have this one fighter in their plate, which does everything for them. So they dont have any heavy or low end fighters (apart from some).
USAF on the contrary doesnt have any multirole fighter and operate in the high and low combination only. USN otoh has a medium category, the 18s. but thats not a multirole platform either.

Multirole, or omnirole is suitable when you have one fighter that can be configured for multi missions, which means, airsuperiority,deep strike and point defence. When in India we have Su30 MKI for air superiority, deep strike Mirages, Jaguars and Migs for point defence, so where do you see multiroles fit here in large numbers? I see a flaw in IAF strategy here!, you are just buying a fighter for teh sake of it, Damn the logic!. I am a fan of Rafale, and was advocating for 126 for a long time, but as I rose upto see the bigger, clearer picture? I understood the reality. I saw IAF's whims and fancies. and so should you. 36 is perfect for filling an operational gap, may be you would see another 18, just like we baught the Mirages.



Abingdonboy said:


> Given the size of this deal the MoD/GoI wanted to extract the maximum utility for India's aerospace sector from it as such the competition became just as focused on the industrial benefits as the fighters themselves.



This is bakwas. Your aerospace will only improve en route LCA. There is hardly anything you will get for industry with the kind of TOT you will get.


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## Stephen Cohen

Dassault will soon sign the 36 Rafale fighter jets contract with India.

"I think we approach the goal with a* first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others later.* I am quite optimistic about signing fast enough," Eric Trappier, CEO Dassault Systems said after he received the Industrial of the Year award by Usine Nouvelle magazine Tuesday.

Indian Rafale Fighter Contract 'Soon Enough'; Dassault CEO

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Immanuel

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## sathya

Stephen Cohen said:


> Dassault will soon sign the 36 Rafale fighter jets contract with India.
> 
> "I think we approach the goal with a* first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others later.* I am quite optimistic about signing fast enough," Eric Trappier, CEO Dassault Systems said after he received the Industrial of the Year award by Usine Nouvelle magazine Tuesday.
> 
> Indian Rafale Fighter Contract 'Soon Enough'; Dassault CEO
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Immanuel




As we have heard soon enough too many times, it wouldn't surprise anyone.
People will react only when it's actually signed


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## halloweene

sathya said:


> As we have heard soon enough too many times, it wouldn't surprise anyone.
> People will react only when it's actually signed


Absolutely. If PR Hollande is indeeed the guest for republic date, i sincirely think we have a small idea.

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## black-hawk_101

Will France going to allow PNAF to buy Rafaels? If PNAF will gain money to buy some 50 Rafaels?


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## GURU DUTT

black-hawk_101 said:


> Will France going to allow PNAF to buy Rafaels? If PNAF will gain money to buy some 50 Rafaels?


if you have money then why not dint french sold you mirage jets in past

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## Taygibay

Rafales, black-hawk_101 mate Rafael is an Israeli weapons maker.

But to answer you, France might but if India signs, it will be unlikely anyway from Islamambad's side!
Specifically,
-France has sold to Pakistan before and relations are good;

-The worry over selling top fighter today would be Pak-China connection
& of copies of all the goodies on-board appearing on the J-31 or newer;

-And on Pakistan's side, the question is related to India's buy if it happens…

_Do you want the same plane as the enemy :​+ side, the best pilots will win
-- side, the air force with many less aircrafts will lose?​
That complication by the way is one of the less foreseen consequences of making only one fighter
per nation, from Sweden to France to USA ( F-22 capped, F-35 to be lone in production by 2021 )
or worst a fourth of one like our cousins! When you have but one product to sell, some successes
in export will automatically bar the neighbour even if you are friends with both!

China is at present, if it learns to make engines, positioned in front of Russia to have multiple models
for export which is a fix that happened very normally in the past when a nation X sold plane A to buddy
nation 1 and plane B to buddy nation 2 and them let have a go at it ( thus making the buddy part hazy ).

It would make China the new superpower and somehow almost seems more fair than Washington's dream
of the entire world equipped with F-35 as lone fighter, a battler royal declared, with the highest count in planes
( see above explain. ) and preserved capacities and a deactivator switch for the units sold to others, etc.

Oh! Well!

So short answer, possible but unlikely. Also explains the Typhoon slant of some revered members recently ...

Good day to you mate, Tay.

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## sathya

UAE in final stages of talks to buy Rafale jets |


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## PARIKRAMA

*Some Latest murmurs*
DM MP after returning from Russia has stated to IAF chief about discussion on FGFA program
Overall cost now is $35 Bn
All issues of IAF will be resolved and PMF plan is prototypes by 2019
After the detailed discussion, DM MP is so impressed that his views on IAF fleet is as follows

154 Single seater FGFA assembled in India with max parts produced in Russia as India does not have a 5th Gen parts manufacturing MIC
65 off the shelf single seater in PAKFA form for quick augmentation of depleting squadron strength.
A total of 219 5th Gen single seaters (original plan was 214 single seater)
Twin seater numbers are not defined but MP had asked IAF to ascertain how many are required. The figures he is approximating at around 50+ again modified from FGFA and assembled in India

DM MP had also updated FM about his tour details and updates about financial part of 5th Gen project. He had given the timeline of 36 rafale contract for max Mar 2016 and is of the opinion to skip signing in Jan 27th 2016 as he needs to "discuss" with IAF about Rafale.

DM MP had also asked IAF chief about the need of rafale again as now IAF will get almost 250 5th Gen FGFA/Pakfa combo and money will be pumped into the project in a big way. He had clarified that such a strategic investment is needed for other projects cooperation (S400, SSn, SSBN and third N sub lease rumoured to be SSGN Yasen class after kashalot)
IAF chief reiterated his need for minimum of 6 squadrons of rafale type birds. If we buy rafale F3 OT4 standard it will be delivered by 2018 max and can be far more beneficial for IAF. Also he stressed on DPSA part of rafale role. MP said about not seeing movement on MII part of rafale and needs clarity from French side expected when NAMO meets French President soon.

@Abingdonboy @SR-91

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Some Latest murmurs*
> DM MP after returning from Russia has stated to IAF chief about discussion on FGFA program
> Overall cost now is $35 Bn
> All issues of IAF will be resolved and PMF plan is prototypes by 2019
> After the detailed discussion, DM MP is so impressed that his views on IAF fleet is as follows
> 
> 154 Single seater FGFA assembled in India with max parts produced in Russia as India does not have a 5th Gen parts manufacturing MIC
> 65 off the shelf single seater in PAKFA form for quick augmentation of depleting squadron strength.
> A total of 219 5th Gen single seaters (original plan was 214 single seater)
> Twin seater numbers are not defined but MP had asked IAF to ascertain how many are required. The figures he is approximating at around 50+ again modified from FGFA and assembled in India
> 
> DM MP had also updated FM about his tour details and updates about financial part of 5th Gen project. He had given the timeline of 36 rafale contract for max Mar 2016 and is of the opinion to skip signing in Jan 27th 2016 as he needs to "discuss" with IAF about Rafale.
> 
> DM MP had also asked IAF chief about the need of rafale again as now IAF will get almost 250 5th Gen FGFA/Pakfa combo and money will be pumped into the project in a big way. He had clarified that such a strategic investment is needed for other projects cooperation (S400, SSn, SSBN and third N sub lease rumoured to be SSGN Yasen class after kashalot)
> IAF chief reiterated his need for minimum of 6 squadrons of rafale type birds. If we buy rafale F3 OT4 standard it will be delivered by 2018 max and can be far more beneficial for IAF. Also he stressed on DPSA part of rafale role. MP said about not seeing movement on MII part of rafale and needs clarity from French side expected when NAMO meets French President soon.
> 
> @Abingdonboy @SR-91


As expected- MP is out of his depth running around asking stupid questions and not having any firm grasp on operational requirements.

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## Abingdonboy

+ @PARIKRAMA where did you get that info from bro? A bit of a a blow to the hopes that more than 36 Rafales are coming- MP seems to be (stupidly) opposing this whilst the ACM is adamant.

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## SR-91

Abingdonboy said:


> As expected- MP is out of his depth running around asking stupid questions and not having any firm grasp on operational requirements.





Abingdonboy said:


> + @PARIKRAMA where did you get that info from bro? A bit of a a blow to the hopes that more than 36 Rafales are coming- MP seems to be (stupidly) opposing this whilst the ACM is adamant.


@PARIKRAMA

These rumors does have some truth to it bro.

There is enormous push from Russia to sign FGFA deal. They are hell bent on stepping over Paris and given their situation, they will agree to most Indian demands.
As far as the Rafale saga goes, India will proceed with min. Of 80 jets and as much as 180.

India will buy Rafale and FGFA. Now, the bigger question is, Will India spend over 50 billion on buying these jets?.................. That is huge. Another way to do it is, India buys less but has decent numbers on options. India is in a strong position.

Deal with Paris will get signed up by 27 Jan 2016. We will have a better understanding next month, when Modi goes to Russia.

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## SanjeevaniButi

SR-91 said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> These rumors does have some truth to it bro.
> 
> There is enormous push from Russia to sign FGFA deal. They are hell bent on stepping over Paris and given their situation, they will agree to most Indian demands.
> As far as the Rafale saga goes, India will proceed with min. Of 80 jets and as much as 180.
> 
> India will buy Rafale and FGFA. Now, the bigger question is, Will India spend over 50 billion on buying these jets?.................. That is huge. Another way to do it is, India buys less but has decent numbers on options. India is in a strong position.
> 
> Deal with Paris will get signed up by 27 Jan 2016. We will have a better understanding next month, when Modi goes to Russia.



LOL.... do you really think India will allow 50 BILLION $ to flow into Foreign countries so that IAF will get shiny toys ?  

So far the ONLY deal for Rafale is 36 and if the rumours are true, MoD is asking IAF to reconsider that too. 

So really even that 36 is in doubt. All these are along expected lines and the only one's "shocked" are the Fan Boys. 

GoI is still pushing for LCA and AMCA....... where do you think the money for all this is going to come from ?

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> + @PARIKRAMA where did you get that info from bro? A bit of a a blow to the hopes that more than 36 Rafales are coming- MP seems to be (stupidly) opposing this whilst the ACM is adamant.





SR-91 said:


> There is enormous push from Russia to sign FGFA deal. They are hell bent on stepping over Paris and given their situation, they will agree to most Indian demands.




DM MP is always opposed to rafale .. Don know why. He was very keen for LCA to be propagated as MII. His plans for MK2 took a back seat and now he seems to be again pursuing AMCA to be launched under MII umbrella project for showcasing NDA commitment for indigenous platforms

I was talking with few folks (retired IAF) whom IAF top brass had expressed deep dissatisfaction and frustrations over Diwali. It seems DM MP is head over heels with Russians over the 5th Gen project. If you see what i wrote, his almost agreeable to the fact that India cannot make 5th gen bird due to lack of a high tech MIC and is ready importing even all parts in CKD/Kits for assembling in HAL. The project structure more or less may be inferior to even MKI where we did some good work over time and here its clear from day 1 "we dont have a capable MIC" line from Russia.

The fact is Rafale is now more or less a done deal based on pure prestige issue of NaMo so you can be assured for first 36 and the options. Dassault clearly says the two versions F3 OT4 version and F3R versions will be parallely produced till 2017 post which production rate increase would mean more or less F3R version only. Egypt has F3 and later f3R whereas Qatar has F3R only.BTW advanced payment from Qatar is still pending and work on Qatari Rafales has not started at all not evne in production planning and allocation. Historically it has produced Mirage 2000 two different standards also parallel post which it shifted to the latest version. So whatever we need and we plan needs to be ordered in a time bound planned manner. I suppose if we order later we may have to either shell out a bit higher for F3R or may be have to see if reverting to F3 OT4 standard could lead to either delays or a small cost for adjustment.

BTW FM and PM are in the same page and they do want rafale but may drop the MII part completely and order in 2 tranches of 36+18 follow on now and another batch of 36+18 by 2019 making a total of 108. The progress in MII part seems a bit circumspect as clarity from Dassault is not there much and MOD is not pushing them hard too.

What i seems to understand that the game played out by DM MP is delaying the signing as much as possible and get the numbers down citing
1. Better alternatives in the form of 5th Gen (weird logic as air superiority is suppose to address DEAD/SEAD missions)
2. Investments in domestic projects (LCA Mark 1A and AMCA)
3. New Anti Aerial systems like S400 procurement which kind of takes the economy of war principle ( a missile is much cheaper than an aircraft so buy more missiles at a cost of 1 jet and burn the intruding aircrafts to rubble)
4. The planned Capex for fresh new acquisitions is used up or having limited finances and hence all requests cant be ful filled (in short DM MP says i cannot agree to all rafales so either buy small numbers of just 36 as PM wants or think of some other platform)

Surely, ACM had shown his frustrations to top brass who are stumped by how DM changed his tone and color by just one visit. IN folks are even more worried that next if USA showcases F35 for IAC2 then thats also sealed come what price and logistical nightmare we may have..

The IAF folks are waiting for a meeting between Prz Hollande and NaMo to see if they take care of the Rafale deal in a pragmatic way or let it play out by the tunes of DM MP. At present unless a diktat comes from PM and FM, Dm MP will keep throwing every obstacles to Rafale acquisition by India. The only change can be a superb deal package by French side to change this position.

Dark clouds in the sky.. Seems the more delay in signing and finalising, the higher chances the Rafale deal will become messier.

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## SanjeevaniButi

PARIKRAMA said:


> DM MP is always opposed to rafale .. Don know why. He was very keen for LCA to be propagated as MII. His plans for MK2 took a back seat and now he seems to be again pursuing AMCA to be launched under MII umbrella project for showcasing NDA commitment for indigenous platforms
> 
> I was talking with few folks (retired IAF) whom IAF top brass had expressed deep dissatisfaction and frustrations over Diwali. It seems DM MP is head over heels with Russians over the 5th Gen project. If you see what i wrote, his almost agreeable to the fact that India cannot make 5th gen bird due to lack of a high tech MIC and is ready importing even all parts in CKD/Kits for assembling in HAL. The project structure more or less may be inferior to even MKI where we did some good work over time and here its clear from day 1 "we dont have a capable MIC" line from Russia.
> 
> The fact is Rafale is now more or less a done deal based on pure prestige issue of NaMo so you can be assured for first 36 and the options. Dassault clearly says the two versions F3 OT4 version and F3R versions will be parallely produced till 2017 post which production rate increase would mean more or less F3R version only. Egypt has F3 and later f3R whereas Qatar has F3R only.BTW advanced payment from Qatar is still pending and work on Qatari Rafales has not started at all not evne in production planning and allocation. Historically it has produced Mirage 2000 two different standards also parallel post which it shifted to the latest version. So whatever we need and we plan needs to be ordered in a time bound planned manner. I suppose if we order later we may have to either shell out a bit higher for F3R or may be have to see if reverting to F3 OT4 standard could lead to either delays or a small cost for adjustment.
> 
> BTW FM and PM are in the same page and they do want rafale but may drop the MII part completely and order in 2 tranches of 36+18 follow on now and another batch of 36+18 by 2019 making a total of 108. The progress in MII part seems a bit circumspect as clarity from Dassault is not there much and MOD is not pushing them hard too.
> 
> What i seems to understand that the game played out by DM MP is delaying the signing as much as possible and get the numbers down citing
> 1. Better alternatives in the form of 5th Gen (weird logic as air superiority is suppose to address DEAD/SEAD missions)
> 2. Investments in domestic projects (LCA Mark 1A and AMCA)
> 3. New Anti Aerial systems like S400 procurement which kind of takes the economy of war principle ( a missile is much cheaper than an aircraft so buy more missiles at a cost of 1 jet and burn the intruding aircrafts to rubble)
> 4. The planned Capex for fresh new acquisitions is used up or having limited finances and hence all requests cant be ful filled (in short DM MP says i cannot agree to all rafales so either buy small numbers of just 36 as PM wants or think of some other platform)
> 
> Surely, ACM had shown his frustrations to top brass who are stumped by how DM changed his tone and color by just one visit. IN folks are even more worried that next if USA showcases F35 for IAC2 then thats also sealed come what price and logistical nightmare we may have..
> 
> The IAF folks are waiting for a meeting between Prz Hollande and NaMo to see if they take care of the Rafale deal in a pragmatic way or let it play out by the tunes of DM MP. At present unless a diktat comes from PM and FM, Dm MP will keep throwing every obstacles to Rafale acquisition by India. The only change can be a superb deal package by French side to change this position.
> 
> Dark clouds in the sky.. Seems the more delay in signing and finalising, the higher chances the Rafale deal will become messier.



Its a bit silly to accuse DM MP of being a Russophile. 

He is an Indian DM, First and Last and will always consider options that are BEST for India. 

ACM OTOH is the IAF chief and he will Only consider options that are Best for IAF. 

India trumps IAF every-time. 

Again NaMO will NEVER put his personal "prestige" over India. His behaviour with Nations which have insulted him and denied him Visa etc. is proof enough. 

It is safe to Assume Russia has offered some lucrative options to India which France cannot match. The French did their best to mess up the deal and now the chicken has come home to roost. No point in crying "foul" (pun intended) 

Finally the dark clouds in the sky is for Rafale, the silver lining is for IAF and the good monsoon that follows will be for India.

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## PARIKRAMA

Well no doubt Russia had offered a superior package which is more lucrative then what French had offered over rafale. IMHO after various discussions, it seems PAKFA program itself is divided into 2 stages. Stage 1 is what present PAKFA program is with IOC scheduled for 2016. Stage 2 is the actual PAKFA having maximum of 5th gen tech including the new engine, avionics and other modules which are under development.

The actual version of PAK FA/FGFA for IAF and RuAF is yet to start test flight. And this one will be far ahead in comparison to the PAK FA Stage-1 or Rafale F4 a step forward in rafale development program in the region of 2023 timeline.

Russia should already have spent billions in development of PAK FA as of today. If the Stage 1 is expected to be as good as Rafale F4 (expected in 2023 timeline) and without the very best of its sensor suites and the engine, then the expectation is a lot of money has been spent already to ensure it remains the very best of under 5th gen bird. (bcz the heart "engine" is still not done and tested). It also implies its above the parameters of chinese 5th gen programs but comparing to F22 is still some what dodgy. We do know in one exercise Rafales had got good kills over F22 and thus if PAKFA stage 1 is superior to rafale then yes going against F22 can be a good possibility with higher chances of winning. It implies stage 2 gives even deeper upgrades and better success rates.

@SanjeevaniButi 
I am not saying DM Mp is ruskies lover or Russophile. What I am saying is that the package details may not be given to IAF chief in an elaborate manner making them not see the bigger picture. if PAKFA off the shelf Stage 1 jets are able to under take all the mission parameters of Rafale and is able to showcase better efficiency and better performance then go for them. The commanality serves us much better anytime. I dont see that as an issue. In fact i do believe Russian may have presented these facts as presentation to DM MP and impressed to him that Rafale is not the only Omnirole but PAKFA is also Omnirole aircraft. If that is a honest portrayal then its an awesome development. 

The issue of prestige for NaMo comes from the fact that with MMRCA cacnellation, it was PM NaMo only who requested for 36 jets for quick delivery not any IAF fellow or DM. The words and weights of a PM requesting for a good deal and quick delivery is much more in strategic parlance than my words. So whatever happens i do see the 36+options being exercised happening. The wriggle will of course be a good bargain and now with Russians increasing the stakes with a good package, I don know about final numbers as that question is now of course needs an answer from french side.I do feel French side needs to pull a bunny out and now make a case for either proving Rafale is better or offer a superior package and complete the negotiations.

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## Stephen Cohen

@PARIKRAMA 

Both Rafale and FGFA are equally important 

We will get both simply because they will serve for a very long time till 2050

And without a strong IAF ; we will see a huge rise in Chinese bullying

The costs look prohibitive but they are spread over a TEN year period in case of Rafale 
and even longer for FGFA 

With the increase in GDP ; we can afford it 

In the year 1996 when we started SU 30 acquisition our GDP was 
ONE FIFTH of what it is Today ( just 20 % ) 

If we had not started it that time ; then IAF would have been in a pitiable shape

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## SanjeevaniButi

PARIKRAMA said:


> @SanjeevaniButi
> I am not saying DM Mp is ruskies lover or Russophile. What I am saying is that the package details may not be given to IAF chief in an elaborate manner making them not see the bigger picture. if PAKFA off the shelf Stage 1 jets are able to under take all the mission parameters of Rafale and is able to showcase better efficiency and better performance then go for them. The commanality serves us much better anytime. I dont see that as an issue. In fact i do believe Russian may have presented these facts as presentation to DM MP and impressed to him that Rafale is not the only Omnirole but PAKFA is also Omnirole aircraft. If that is a honest portrayal then its an awesome development.
> 
> The issue of prestige for NaMo comes from the fact that with MMRCA cacnellation, it was PM NaMo only who requested for 36 jets for quick delivery not any IAF fellow or DM. The words and weights of a PM requesting for a good deal and quick delivery is much more in strategic parlance than my words. So whatever happens i do see the 36+options being exercised happening. The wriggle will of course be a good bargain and now with Russians increasing the stakes with a good package, I don know about final numbers as that question is now of course needs an answer from french side.I do feel French side needs to pull a bunny out and now make a case for either proving Rafale is better or offer a superior package and complete the negotiations.



I am sure the Rafale will be better than PAKFA in certain parameters and PAKFA will be better in certain other parameters. But in a Govt. to Got. deal and Strategic decision making , the aircraft performance is only ONE of the parameters that goes into decision making. 

It always will be a Trade Off and if history is any proof, the trade off ALWAYS goes in the favour of Russians because they were always willing to offer more and give more. 

Maybe Plan B will be to provide ground support via UAV and cruise missiles etc where IA will have greater operational control. Who can say ? 

NaMo in all probability looked into an option provided by Rafale for Off the Shelf purchase of 36 AC. Possibly made as an Negotiation ploy. Only NaMo called their Bluff. (I have been in such situations and know how it works)

Its again silly to assume the PM will ask for 36 without clearing it first with DM and IAF. But given the circumstances I am going to guess that 36 Rafale just might make the cut. Maybe 18 more, but that's it. 

Remember Mirage 2000 ? Those who do not learn from History is doomed to repeat it. Applies to Dassault and IAF.



Stephen Cohen said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> Both Rafale and FGFA are equally important
> 
> We will get both simply because they will serve for a very long time till 2050
> 
> And without a strong IAF ; we will see a huge rise in Chinese bullying
> 
> The costs look prohibitive but they are spread over a TEN year period in case of Rafale
> and even longer for FGFA
> 
> With the increase in GDP ; we can afford it
> 
> In the year 1996 when we started SU 30 acquisition our GDP was
> ONE FIFTH of what it is Today ( just 20 % )
> 
> If we had not started it that time ; then IAF would have been in a pitiable shape



Currently Indian Economy is LARGER than Russian Economy. 

Its not the 1950s Any more. 

If Russia with a smaller Economy builds their own Stuff, Its about Time INDIA does the same. 

I am certain the GoI recognizes this fact even if you don't.

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## rockstarIN

I prefer 36 + 18 Rafale and 108 APK FA/FGFA

Should give more importance to AMCA, with more foreign collaboration.

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## kalibr

After an impasse over technicalities, India and France are working to finalise the agreement for the direct purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets before the visit of French President Francois Hollande to India as the chief guest of the next Republic Day parade here.

“Negotiations are in an advanced stage and both sides are working to reach an agreement before the visit,” a Defence Ministry official told _The Hindu_.

Last week, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said the deal was “in the final stages of price negotiations” and issues such as the 50 per cent offset clause had “almost been sorted out”. The offset issue had been one of the major sticking points in the negotiations.

“The deal was announced at the highest level politically; so both sides want to make sure it is adhered to,” a senior official said.

During his visit to Paris in April, Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the direct purchase through a government-to-government deal as quickly as possible in view of the “critical operational necessity” of the Air Force, sidestepping the original medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest.

However, negotiations by the high-powered committee set up to negotiate the terms and conditions for the deal and recommend a draft agreement hit a road block over the issue of offsets and changes in configuration sought by the Air Force.

*Offset clause*

Offset clause applies for defence deals worth over Rs. 300 crore under which companies are to invest 30 per cent of the value of the contract back in the country. For the MMRCA deal, the government had fixed it at 50 percent. In addition, the Air Force wanted some structural changes to the aircraft to incorporate the indigenously built “*Astra” beyond visual range (BVR) missiles.*

France insists that the cost of the deal would go up and delivery timelines delayed because of the offset clause and changes sought. Official sources said a workaround had now been agreed upon.

The Air Force urgently needs new fighter aircraft to arrest the depleting fighter strength as MiG-21s and -27s are phased out and induction of the indigenous light combat aircraft has been repeatedly delayed.

It is still unclear if the Defence Ministry intends to order additional Rafale jets over and above the 36 or how it intends to replace the MiGs. “As of now, we are talking about 36 [planes]. I am not saying that it means we are thinking of buying more. To upgrade the Air Force, we are preparing a road map. Once that road map is finalised and approved by the government, we will go ahead as per the road map,” Mr. Parrikar said recently.

The Air Force has said on several occasions that it requires at least six squadrons comprising 108 Rafale or similar planes to arrest the depleting force levels and maintain the combat edge with respect to China and Pakistan.


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## halloweene

just for the sake of inormation. F3 is a standard (atm Rafale software is F3.4'), while 04T is a tranche production

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## halloweene

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/671426858450329602


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## surya kiran

halloweene said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/671426858450329602



Hey, what do you think the final order size will look like?


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## sharma1111

230 mill/piece. 36 Rafale at price of $8.3 bill$. It includes training of pilots and technicians, armaments and spares.

F-35 will cost around 85 mill$ piece from 2018. Am I missing something here.

Why is F-35 so cheap?


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## sathya

sharma1111 said:


> 230 mill/piece. 36 Rafale at price of $8.3 bill$. It includes training of pilots and technicians, armaments and spares.
> 
> F-35 will cost around 85 mill$ piece from 2018. Am I missing something here.
> 
> Why is F-35 so cheap?




Not armaments in rafale deal

Total number of F35 to be built will in thousands, single engine aircraft.

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## sharma1111

sathya said:


> Not armaments in rafale deal
> 
> Total number of F35 to be built will in thousands, single engine aircraft.



The pricing is not fair if we are paying 2-2.5 times moe than F-35 for a 4.5 Gen Aircraft.

India should cancel the deal and buy Su-35 instread


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## sathya

sharma1111 said:


> The pricing is not fair if we are paying 2-2.5 times moe than F-35 for a 4.5 Gen Aircraft.
> 
> India should cancel the deal and buy Su-35 instread



Sure it's expensive , that's the best available to us without strings

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## sharma1111

sathya said:


> Sure it's expensive , that's the best available to us without strings



Chinese are buying Su-35 for 80 mill $ a piece. What is the motivation behind buying Rafale which will be inducted by 2022.


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## Agent_47

sharma1111 said:


> Chinese are buying Su-35 for 80 mill $ a piece. What is the motivation behind buying Rafale which will be inducted by 2022.


First of all there is no credible source till about final price.
Don't compare fly away cost with life time cost. Rafale is worth the price for the capabilities it bring.
Our super sukhois will out class any flankers in lifetime value.

Start read and learn before asking.

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## Perpendicular

First SCALP cruise missile launched against daesh.

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## Agent_47

Egyptian air force rafale on way to delivery.

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## Oldman1

sharma1111 said:


> 230 mill/piece. 36 Rafale at price of $8.3 bill$. It includes training of pilots and technicians, armaments and spares.
> 
> F-35 will cost around 85 mill$ piece from 2018. Am I missing something here.
> 
> Why is F-35 so cheap?



As Saytha pointed out, mass production and one engine fighter. It be awesome to have a twin engine on the F-35 but it be more expensive. Hence why the Eurofigher and Rafale are more expensive.


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## ultron

Oldman1 said:


> As Saytha pointed out, mass production and one engine fighter. It be awesome to have a twin engine on the F-35 but it be more expensive. Hence why the Eurofigher and Rafale are more expensive.




Rafale has two small engines, only 18,000 lb thrust each. F-35 has one big engine 40,000 lb thrust. Size wise, F-35 is on par with Rafale.


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## Oldman1

ultron said:


> Rafale has two small engines, only 18,000 lb thrust each. F-35 has one big engine 40,000 lb thrust. Size wise, F-35 is on par with Rafale.



I'm aware of that. Difference is that because the Rafale has two engines, it has two engines to maintained instead of one.


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## ultron

Oldman1 said:


> I'm aware of that. Difference is that because the Rafale has two engines, it has two engines to maintained instead of one.




Two small engines or one big engine, should be roughly the same maintenance.


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## Agent_47

Oldman1 said:


> I'm aware of that. Difference is that because the Rafale has two engines, it has two engines to maintained instead of one.


No of engine does not cut for F35.
Compare MTOW and max engine output.


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## Oldman1

Agent_47 said:


> No of engine does not cut for F35.
> Compare MTOW and max engine output.



What about it?

Rafale

*Loaded weight:* 15,000 kilograms (33,000 lb) ()
*Max. takeoff weight:* 24,500 kilograms (54,000 lb) (B/C/D) ()
*Powerplant:* 2 × Snecma M88-2 turbofans
*Dry thrust:* 50.04 kN (11,250 lbf) each
*Thrust with afterburner:* 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each

*Fuel capacity:* 4,700 kg (10,360 lb) internal


F-35


*Max. takeoff weight:* 70,000 lb[N 7] (31,800 kg)
*Powerplant:* 1 × Pratt & Whitney F135 afterburning turbofan
*Dry thrust:* 28,000 lbf[623][N 8] (125 kN)
*Thrust with afterburner:* 43,000 lbf[623][624] (191 kN)

*Internal fuel capacity:* 18,498 lb (8,382 kg)[620][N 9]


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## Agent_47

Oldman1 said:


> What about it?
> 
> Rafale
> 
> *Loaded weight:* 15,000 kilograms (33,000 lb) ()
> *Max. takeoff weight:* 24,500 kilograms (54,000 lb) (B/C/D) ()
> *Powerplant:* 2 × Snecma M88-2 turbofans
> *Dry thrust:* 50.04 kN (11,250 lbf) each
> *Thrust with afterburner:* 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each
> 
> *Fuel capacity:* 4,700 kg (10,360 lb) internal
> 
> 
> F-35
> 
> 
> *Max. takeoff weight:* 70,000 lb[N 7] (31,800 kg)
> *Powerplant:* 1 × Pratt & Whitney F135 afterburning turbofan
> *Dry thrust:* 28,000 lbf[623][N 8] (125 kN)
> *Thrust with afterburner:* 43,000 lbf[623][624] (191 kN)
> 
> *Internal fuel capacity:* 18,498 lb (8,382 kg)[620][N 9]


The point is F35 is heavier and single engine output is ~20% higher than rafale. That makes it more costly. Also as F35 is a generation ahead electro optics and stealth optimizations makes it even harder to maintain and acquire .

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## PARIKRAMA

Rafale deal update from Business today

*It will be a dash to the finishing line if the contract for the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force has to be signed during the upcoming visit of French President Francois Hollande in the last week of January. A team of French officials is in India working even a day before Christmas to give final touches to the technical and contractual details of the Inter Governmental Agreement (IGA).*

The officials are expected to wrap up technical and contractual ingredients of the purchase within a week. Once these issues are put behind, the negotiators would concentrate on the commercial aspects, highly placed sources told MAIL TODAY.

The commercial negotiations on the final price of the deal are expected to go on for another three weeks, if not more, before the final proposal is placed before the ministries of defence and finance. Whether the contract would be signed during the visit of the French president, who will be the chief guest at the Republic Day parade, is still an open-ended question, though it seems that the two events are not linked. India's mammoth defence requirements and the swift manoeuvrability shown by the government towards accepting new proposals have led to considerable posturing from various powers.

The talks are in advanced stage and the government is satisfied with the way deliberations are going ahead. However, there is no commitment if the deal would be through next month. If it happens, it will be a big statement for India-France strategic ties. With the purchase, the government hopes to tide over the shortage of fighter jets in the Indian Air Force (IAF).

*If Rafale deal is moving forward, there is little progress on the proposal to jointly develop a fifth generation fighter with Russia. The stalemate over the whole project continues as the government is now not keen on joint development because of the delays.*

Had the original plan to acquire fifth generation fighter jets remained on track, the IAF would have started getting the aircraft from 2017. Since the Prospective Multi-Role Fighter (PMF) - as the proposed fighter is known - is same as Russia's PAK-FA which is already flying, India is keen to junk the joint development programme.

It had sought access to PAK-FA so that it could get the The commercial negotiations on the final price of the Rafale deal are expected to go on for another three weeks, if not more, before the final proposal is placed before the ministries of defence and finance.

Russians have still not taken any call on the proposal. Not much movement is expected on the project during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's ongoing visit to Russia.

Despite exploring other options for acquisition of military hardware, India has placed enough in the Russian baskets. It will go for the purchase of the Russian cutting edge S 400 air defence system expected to be worth Rs 40,000 crore. India is also keen to have on lease another nuclear submarine.

The officials said that many countries are offering equipment to India and are keen to take advantage of the "Make in India" scheme. New Delhi is weighing it options before taking a call. One of the areas that is being actively pursued is fulfilling the requirement of large number of drones.

Sources said that all the options are on table including exploring foreign sources like Israel and the US. There are issues in dealing with the US as it wants compliance to Missile Technology Control Regime and ways are being found to sort out the issue

Rafale deal in final lap ahead of French President Francois Hollande's India visit

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## PARIKRAMA

Confirmed: Rafale deal will be signed on 25th Jan when Prez Hollande arrives in India

*India, France may sign deal for 36 Rafale jets on January 25 when French President Francois Hollande arrives for Republic day*













@Abingdonboy @FrenchPilot @SR-91 @anant_s @dadeechi

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## A.P. Richelieu

ultron said:


> Two small engines or one big engine, should be roughly the same maintenance.



The F-35 has problems with the engine requiring a lot of maintenance.

F-35 engine problems - Business Insider

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## anant_s

PARIKRAMA said:


> If Rafale deal is moving forward, there is little progress on the proposal to jointly develop a fifth generation fighter with Russia. The stalemate over the whole project continues as the government is now not keen on joint development because of the delays.


I think, its the right move.
Focusing on one platform at a ttime is right thing to do. Let us concentrate on Rafale and when in 5 years from now when Rafale is inducted and integrated properly with (as i believe) domestic production of Rafale underway, we can focus on PAK FA derivative.
By that time, things would be far clear on that front and T 50 itself would have matured.

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## anant_s

Moderator said:


> A project of such complexity as co-developing a fifth generation fighter jet shall have a lead time of at least 10 years from initiation to full operational capability. If we want it tomorrow, we have to start today. The hold-up today is prompted in part by delays in closing the contract all these years and now you want to add to the delays?


i'm not contesting the timeframe, the issue is Russia's commitment to FGFA. there are significant differences between PAK FA and FGFA and unless IAF is confident that the final product meets its requirements, i don't see ant merit in committing billions of USD to the program.
Please note that as on today there is nothing like FGFA and even PAK FA is far from mature design.
I agree to your point that this can be rectified only by investing time, money and research but i get a feeling, Russia at this point is interested to develop PAK FA to suit its requirements rather tham bothering much about FGFA.

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## anant_s

Moderator said:


> How is Russia's commitment to FGFA the 'real issue'? Do explain.


Read recent news.
Russia is asking India to buy PAK FA while remaining silent on FGFA.
When India committed to program, it was for FGFA not PAK FA.
What does that tell?

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## PARIKRAMA

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-rafale-deal-in-january/videoshow/50334211.cm s
Link for the video http:// cdnbakmi.kaltura.com/p/303932/sp/30393200/serveFlavor/flavorId/0_32b78khz/name/0_32b78khz.mp4
(remove the first blank)
You guys gonna love this video

I quote the reporter saying
Indian DM MP is hopeful that India will negotiate the *price upto *

*25% less than from 105 Mn Euros to 75 Mn Euros each* for 

supply of full consignment of fighters to the IAF .

You got the flyaway price here sureshot and that will be in the range of $ 82 Mn for each jet

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## PARIKRAMA

Indo-French Draft Contract On Rafale Purchase Ready
*
Indo-French Draft Contract On Rafale Purchase Ready*
Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Monday, December 28, 2015 @ 08:18 AM




Dassault Rafale fighter during Aero India airshow 2015

A draft contract between India and France for the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jet is ready, according to local media reports.

According to the draft contract, the first fighter jet must be supplied in the first three years after the deal has been finalized, local media reported Sunday.

India is hopeful of negotiating a price cut of up to 25 per cent in the purchase costing about US $82 million each instead of US $115 million. Indian Air Force will receive all the 36 fighters in seven years after signing the deal.

India and France are likely to sign the deal for 36 Rafale fighter aircraft on the eve of French President François Hollande’s visit to India for the Republic Day celebrations.

The Indian MoD had earlier this month said that France had agreed to reinvest 50 per cent of the contract on the Rafale fighter in India.

A top Industry source, meanwhile, said that a 50 per cent offset on the contract is an overestimation. The 50 per cent figure was applicable when the contract was being negotiated for 126 aircraft. Now that the final figure is only for 36 aircrafts, the offset figure will naturally be less.

Dassault is in talks with various Indian corporates about being possible offsets partner at this stage. The offsets partner, out of the main contract, will only be decided upon after the final inter-governmental deal is concluded.

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## rockstarIN

So first Rafe will come before end of 2018!


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## #hydra#

Negotiation for just 36 pieces itself draged to this many years,frenchies gonna screw us badlywhen it comes to its possible future upgrades.


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## Blue Marlin

*Indo-French Draft Contract On Rafale Purchase Ready*
Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Monday, December 28, 2015 @ 08:18 AM
Views : 797 A- A A+





Dassault Rafale fighter during Aero India airshow 2015

A draft contract between India and France for the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jet is ready, according to local media reports.

According to the draft contract, the first fighter jet must be supplied in the first three years after the deal has been finalized, local media reported Sunday.

India is hopeful of negotiating a price cut of up to 25 per cent in the purchase costing about US $82 million each instead of US $115 million. Indian Air Force will receive all the 36 fighters in seven years after signing the deal.

India and France are likely to sign the deal for 36 Rafale fighter aircraft on the eve of French President François Hollande’s visit to India for the Republic Day celebrations.

The Indian MoD had earlier this month said that France had agreed to reinvest 50 per cent of the contract on the Rafale fighter in India.

A top Industry source, meanwhile, said that a 50 per cent offset on the contract is an overestimation. The 50 per cent figure was applicable when the contract was being negotiated for 126 aircraft. Now that the final figure is only for 36 aircrafts, the offset figure will naturally be less.

Dassault is in talks with various Indian corporates about being possible offsets partner at this stage. The offsets partner, out of the main contract, will only be decided upon after the final inter-governmental deal is concluded.


Indo-French Draft Contract On Rafale Purchase Ready

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## Oldman1

Agent_47 said:


> The point is F35 is heavier and single engine output is ~20% higher than rafale. That makes it more costly. Also as F35 is a generation ahead electro optics and stealth optimizations makes it even harder to maintain and acquire .



No it doesn't. That is the maximum takeoff weight of the aircraft carrying weapons and fuel. If you put out maximum fuel and weapons on the plane, the Rafale's engines is pushed to the limits of carrying all on the 2 smaller engines even if its lighter by 16,000lbs. And the Rafale has high tech sensors and avionics so it doesn't matter. Its going to be more expensive than the F-35 with one engine. Why else India having a hard time negotiating a deal for years?


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## Odysseus

*From The Cockpit: Dassault Rafale*


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## PARIKRAMA

Credit to @Gessler

++
Interesting read

Especially this line i like the most
*Peace of Mind at 900km/h, 20 meters *
thats pure DPSA strength and ideal choice for N option.. fly low missions..

DefesaNet - HO - What does Egypt get for choosing the Rafale - Dassault’s fighter jet?

*What does Egypt get for choosing the Rafale - Dassault’s fighter jet?
by Vianney Junior
Test Pilot / Aerospace & Defense Analyst*

*7 in 1*
A fighter proven in four recent campaigns - Afghanistan, Libya, Mali and Iraq, the Rafale needs no introduction. Several articles and publications describe the models and specifications of the French fighter. We do not intend to write about what you probably already know. It is worth noting, though, that both single-seat and dual-seat aircraft retain the same dimensions and the same percentage of composites on their surface exposed to detection, at 70%. Here, we focus on testing the actual capabilities of the Dassault Rafale, which fits the AESA radar RBE2, and advanced MWS (warning of approaching missiles,) and complete incorporated FSO, (suite of optical sensors).

*Our evaluations follow from the planning of the mission: a separate chapter for its practicality and versatility, to the digital debriefing. This helped us to understand the reason for the profound impact that the introduction of the Rafale has had. Dassault´s fighter has changed operational reality and its reflection in the chain of C4ISTR (Command, Control, Communications, Computer, Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition, and Reconnaissance) for the French Armed Forces.*






The deployment of Dassault´s Rafale was rolled out in spite of the harsh reality of global budget reductions, but with surprising results: *A decreased total number of fighter, reconnaissance, and attack aircraft, but with an increase in mission capacity and availability, with a considerable increase in efficiency. In all, seven different aircraft models with specific missions had their designations absorbed in the Rafale*. *To give you a better idea, consider the savings after the last remaining aircrafts are fully replaced, with a drastic rationalization of human and financial resources, in reason of the standardization of equipment and crews.*

Like a Moving Dune – Adaptable for Changing Scenarios
*
The Rafale is what we might call "totally ergonomic,” since Dassault, following the DNA of the company, builds the aircraft around the pilot as the key element.* *The aircraft is drawn from the fingertips of those who command it. Obviously in just one week of operational tests and evaluations, I am far from an expert on the Rafale, but with the brief intensive instruction I received, I operated it with extreme ease. Dassault’s concept emphasizes the practicality and ease of switch, reset and run a wide range of missions on constantly changing scenarios, even during a single flight. I had the opportunity to mock-fight with a complex combination of weapons, where Rafale fulfilled various types of missions in a single sortie, simulating not only similar operations run by the French Air Force and Navy in Afghanistan, Libya, and Mali, but in a theater of operations against “stronger hostile forces, and even more prepared.”*


*The set of missions incorporated maritime attacks using the AM39 Exocet, with penetration at very low altitude, AASM attack (Armement Air-Sol Modulaire) on multiple simultaneous targets. Rapidly changing from planned targets to reassigned objectives, both at altitude and in low-level bombing including POP attack. Air superiority with BVR (beyond visual range) engagements and dogfights at short range, finishing by strafing opportunity targets with the Nexter 30M 791 cannon with 30mm shells.*







*Data Fusion
PCWRITE. This combination of "letters" appears in the lower left corner of the HLD - Head Level Display, giving a real-time and instant confirmation of which sensors are signaling at that moment*. Each letter representing either the RBE2 AESA radar, the Infrared / Laser / TV Front-Sector Optronics (FSO), the internal system of electronic warfare SPECTRA EW, IFF (identification friend-or-foe), are merged into a unified and clear visual symbolism directly on the SA display (situational awareness), and that means keeping the pilot in the situational loop. *Rarely (not witnessed at any time during our evaluations) would the pilot ever be unaware of the environment within the 360º “bubble” surrounding the aircraft.*

T*he heart of this data fusion is the MDPU - Processing Unit Data Modules that comprises 19 LRUs (flight-line replaceable units), each providing a processing capacity up to 50 times greater than the previous generation of fighters*. Translation: The pilot has a reduced workload, which enables him to act like a real tactical decision maker, rather than a mere sensor operator.

The key point of this data fusion is to overcome the limitations of any one particular sensor. For example, if it relies on waveforms, frequency, or infrared imaging, and the angle, distance, altitude, weather conditions or even a malfunction pose a limitation; other components supplement the formation of the big picture, situationally. The MDPU collects consolidated data from different sources based on various technologies, complementing, organizing and providing information through symbolism refined, reliable and unified.

*DASSAULT, THALES, SAGEM (SAFRAN Group) and MBDA found their very own way to integrate the machine, sensors and weapons




*


The fact that Dassault holds an equity stake in the Thales Group was instrumental in the development of the *RBE2 AESA - Active Electronically Scanned Radar,* for the Rafale, with the speed and autonomy necessary for the viability of the French fighter program. *This type of radar, whose transmitter and receiver are composed of numerous independent modules, allows detection in all-aspects: look-down and look-up, and tracking of multiple air targets, even outside the search area, in all weather conditions and even in an environment of interference and electronic countermeasures.*

In addition to its clear advantage in air combat and vital and indispensable features in terms on today’s air superiority, the AESA radar provides privileged tactical situational planning, in both ground and maritime attack missions. *During our simulated scenarios we employed the RBE2 EASA for real-time generation of three-dimensional maps for Terrain Following Flight mode, and for the capture of high resolution 2D maps for detection and identification of enemies in different environments, both urban and rural, and for designation and tracking of multiple targets on land and at sea.*

Among other sensors, the combination of AESA radar with FSO - Front Sector Optronics, embedded in the nose, at the factory - developed by Thales and Sagem for the Rafale - made me feel very comfortable, especially for attesting that the rules of engagement could be easily followed, in terms of friend or foe clear ID.* I was always confident in identifying targets to be attacked in the air, on the ground or at the sea, thanks to the automatic search and tracking integrated multi-sensor suite. Besides enabling us to execute the mission accurately, Rafale also gave us the ability to document, record, and evaluate, as a RECON.*

*Rafale’s claws*








The MBDA MICA missile (Missile d'interception et de combat aérien) is now the main air-to-air armament of the Rafale - multi-target, all weather, and fire-and-forget. Extremely agile, thanks to TVC - thrust vector control, and its small size, unusual compared to similar missiles of short and medium range, MICA has demonstrated its effectiveness from approximately 500 meters to 60 kilometers. IR versions (imaging infrared homing seeker), and RF (active homing radar seeker), are both equipped with filters that reduce the effectiveness of countermeasures such as flares and chaff. The MBDA MICA is also able to lock-on after launch (LOAL), which means in practice that it will "permit" shooting out of sensor range missile, effecting the acquisition and lock on target after launch, and even a new target designation via aircraft-missile link.

As mentioned before Rafale data fusion can use visual information from MICA IR infrared seeker, processing and merging data, acting as an extra sensor, while aboard the aircraft rails.







*Rafale and Mirage 2000 C RDI ready for take off in Istres Air Force Base*


*During our assessments, we performed BVR and WVR engagements with the Mirage 2000 C RDI, where we had the opportunity to confirm the combination of the sensibility of SPECTRA EW with the all-aspect launching and target acquisition of MICA IR. This allowed us to designate the target from any source (EM / IR / Laser Threat Detection - Electromagnetic Threat Detection / Infrared / Laser), when the security bubble around the Rafale was invaded, and to execute the missile launch “over the shoulder.” Over the shoulder means that a MICA can be fired at a target located at position six o’clock (behind the aircraft) without changing flight direction.*

We have been awarded the privilege of accompanying the latest stage of development of the next air-to-air long range missile to be employed by the Rafale, the MBDA METEOR. The Meteor is driven by a ramjet, a jet engine that has no moving parts, simple and small, but with great speed, at more than Mach 4, and lethal at more than 100 km. *We had access to simulator program integration, where the behavior of the new weapons were tested in conjunction with RBE2 AESA radar and other sensors that comprise the suite of data fusion of the Rafale and which guarantees a precise target acquisition and lock. We had the honor of performing some METEOR launches, which were recorded and added to the database of the development program and integration.*

*Peace of Mind at 900km/h, 20 meters* from the ground and surrounded by bad guys

Pilot safety is safeguarded by various systems of the Rafale. Starting with the seat, a tilt of 29º distributes the gravitational effect, preventing G-Loc, even at 9Gs that Dassault’s fighter can pull without surpass the operational load factors parameters, in air-to-air mode. The GPW - Ground Proximity Warning, alerts by audible and visual signals, to avoid colliding with the ground when the attitude and altitude of flight correspond to an approach to the surface. If needed, a pre-programmed recovery system can be accessed by the pilot, and in the case of spatial disorientation, there is an "anti-spin” feature even though the Rafale has not shown any tendency to spin, even in the corners of the envelope. Nevertheless, once anti-spin switch is activated, the flight computers redirect the aircraft to a safe flight regime with wings leveled, 5 degrees of climb, and 350 kts. In the absence of reaction by the pilot, GPW will also automatically initiate a maneuver leading back to the leveling of the airplane’s wings and a positive attitude to climb.

If Rafale safety features prevents CFIT events (controlled flight into terrain), it is exactly on the low flight (close to the ground - hilly or flat - or water) that the fighter shows one of its greatest strengths. With a unique capability and clever use of what I call "guerrilla stealth,"







Terrain Following mode is much more than an aid to agile piloting at very low altitude. It acts as an extra pilot in the cockpit, since the security I felt in the fidelity of the system - which combines the redundancy of AESA radar and the digital database, leave us entirely focused on the tactical objective of the mission: namely, to deliver the "package" in the right place at the right time... and yet, track airborne targets and threats during the raid.

*A Dainty Beast*

The thrust-to-weight ratio and wing loading of the Rafale allows this "beast" to carry a payload of up to 140% of its own weight. All this "brutishness" did not detract from Rafale´s performance, verve, and flair, since its agility, acceleration, and flexibility of speed inside the envelope confirm a successful aerodynamic model. I was able to test Rafale’s finest handling characteristics entering a loop at low speed, starting at 190 kts, dropping to 128 kts, at the top, and spanning only 2,300 feet.

Docile but also with positive response controls, the impressive short landing of the Rafale even in a gusty day like that we’re flying, she landed safely in less than 650 meters, with 510 kg of fuel remaining, two MICAs and a supersonic external belly tank. By the way, “Rafale” is French for gust.









*Author in French Air Force Base Istres*

@Vauban @Abingdonboy @SR-91 @anant_s @AUSTERLITZ @nair @MilSpec @Capt.Popeye @SpArK @knight11 @Taygibay @others

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## anant_s

one thing that amazes (or disappointing to purists) is that with so much of technology, the pilot is only one of the many inputs, the machine requires to complete its mission. I'm not sure of how much workload a pilot has inside cockpit of such technological marvels, but the technology is certainly Lightyears ahead of time when first jet combat took place in skies above Yalu river in Korean Peninsula.
@Vauban @Taygibay 
You guys have any interesting stories to share on topic

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## Taygibay

Automated firing of a MICA off patrol leader's machine by the SPECTRA of a wingman's AC?
That should suffice! 

I'm surprised this piece still resurfaces as new though, the original being from 3 years ago, Tay.

DefesaNet - Rafale - Shooting Down an Aggressor on My Six! Vive la différence!

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## MilSpec

Taygibay said:


> Automated firing of a MICA off patrol leader's machine by the SPECTRA of a wingman's AC?
> That should suffice!
> 
> I'm surprised this piece still resurfaces as new though, the original being from 3 years ago, Tay.
> 
> DefesaNet - Rafale - Shooting Down an Aggressor on My Six! Vive la différence!


I would be pissed off, if a GL popped an aam RDM'ing off of my machine irrespective of how impressive it sounds . My missile is my missile, keep your stinkin hands off it.

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## Taygibay

MilSpec said:


> I would be pissed off, if a GL popped an aam RDM'ing off of my machine irrespective of how impressive it sounds . My missile is my missile, keep your stinkin hands off it.



 Great one and shared feeling on that. Then again, that may be why AF's HQs want drones?

 Tay.

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## SR-91

PARIKRAMA said:


> Credit to @Gessler
> 
> ++
> Interesting read
> 
> Especially this line i like the most
> *Peace of Mind at 900km/h, 20 meters *
> thats pure DPSA strength and ideal choice for N option.. fly low missions..
> 
> DefesaNet - HO - What does Egypt get for choosing the Rafale - Dassault’s fighter jet?
> 
> *What does Egypt get for choosing the Rafale - Dassault’s fighter jet?
> by Vianney Junior
> Test Pilot / Aerospace & Defense Analyst*
> 
> *7 in 1*
> A fighter proven in four recent campaigns - Afghanistan, Libya, Mali and Iraq, the Rafale needs no introduction. Several articles and publications describe the models and specifications of the French fighter. We do not intend to write about what you probably already know. It is worth noting, though, that both single-seat and dual-seat aircraft retain the same dimensions and the same percentage of composites on their surface exposed to detection, at 70%. Here, we focus on testing the actual capabilities of the Dassault Rafale, which fits the AESA radar RBE2, and advanced MWS (warning of approaching missiles,) and complete incorporated FSO, (suite of optical sensors).
> 
> *Our evaluations follow from the planning of the mission: a separate chapter for its practicality and versatility, to the digital debriefing. This helped us to understand the reason for the profound impact that the introduction of the Rafale has had. Dassault´s fighter has changed operational reality and its reflection in the chain of C4ISTR (Command, Control, Communications, Computer, Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition, and Reconnaissance) for the French Armed Forces.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The deployment of Dassault´s Rafale was rolled out in spite of the harsh reality of global budget reductions, but with surprising results: *A decreased total number of fighter, reconnaissance, and attack aircraft, but with an increase in mission capacity and availability, with a considerable increase in efficiency. In all, seven different aircraft models with specific missions had their designations absorbed in the Rafale*. *To give you a better idea, consider the savings after the last remaining aircrafts are fully replaced, with a drastic rationalization of human and financial resources, in reason of the standardization of equipment and crews.*
> 
> Like a Moving Dune – Adaptable for Changing Scenarios
> *
> The Rafale is what we might call "totally ergonomic,” since Dassault, following the DNA of the company, builds the aircraft around the pilot as the key element.* *The aircraft is drawn from the fingertips of those who command it. Obviously in just one week of operational tests and evaluations, I am far from an expert on the Rafale, but with the brief intensive instruction I received, I operated it with extreme ease. Dassault’s concept emphasizes the practicality and ease of switch, reset and run a wide range of missions on constantly changing scenarios, even during a single flight. I had the opportunity to mock-fight with a complex combination of weapons, where Rafale fulfilled various types of missions in a single sortie, simulating not only similar operations run by the French Air Force and Navy in Afghanistan, Libya, and Mali, but in a theater of operations against “stronger hostile forces, and even more prepared.”*
> 
> 
> *The set of missions incorporated maritime attacks using the AM39 Exocet, with penetration at very low altitude, AASM attack (Armement Air-Sol Modulaire) on multiple simultaneous targets. Rapidly changing from planned targets to reassigned objectives, both at altitude and in low-level bombing including POP attack. Air superiority with BVR (beyond visual range) engagements and dogfights at short range, finishing by strafing opportunity targets with the Nexter 30M 791 cannon with 30mm shells.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Data Fusion
> PCWRITE. This combination of "letters" appears in the lower left corner of the HLD - Head Level Display, giving a real-time and instant confirmation of which sensors are signaling at that moment*. Each letter representing either the RBE2 AESA radar, the Infrared / Laser / TV Front-Sector Optronics (FSO), the internal system of electronic warfare SPECTRA EW, IFF (identification friend-or-foe), are merged into a unified and clear visual symbolism directly on the SA display (situational awareness), and that means keeping the pilot in the situational loop. *Rarely (not witnessed at any time during our evaluations) would the pilot ever be unaware of the environment within the 360º “bubble” surrounding the aircraft.*
> 
> T*he heart of this data fusion is the MDPU - Processing Unit Data Modules that comprises 19 LRUs (flight-line replaceable units), each providing a processing capacity up to 50 times greater than the previous generation of fighters*. Translation: The pilot has a reduced workload, which enables him to act like a real tactical decision maker, rather than a mere sensor operator.
> 
> The key point of this data fusion is to overcome the limitations of any one particular sensor. For example, if it relies on waveforms, frequency, or infrared imaging, and the angle, distance, altitude, weather conditions or even a malfunction pose a limitation; other components supplement the formation of the big picture, situationally. The MDPU collects consolidated data from different sources based on various technologies, complementing, organizing and providing information through symbolism refined, reliable and unified.
> 
> *DASSAULT, THALES, SAGEM (SAFRAN Group) and MBDA found their very own way to integrate the machine, sensors and weapons
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> The fact that Dassault holds an equity stake in the Thales Group was instrumental in the development of the *RBE2 AESA - Active Electronically Scanned Radar,* for the Rafale, with the speed and autonomy necessary for the viability of the French fighter program. *This type of radar, whose transmitter and receiver are composed of numerous independent modules, allows detection in all-aspects: look-down and look-up, and tracking of multiple air targets, even outside the search area, in all weather conditions and even in an environment of interference and electronic countermeasures.*
> 
> In addition to its clear advantage in air combat and vital and indispensable features in terms on today’s air superiority, the AESA radar provides privileged tactical situational planning, in both ground and maritime attack missions. *During our simulated scenarios we employed the RBE2 EASA for real-time generation of three-dimensional maps for Terrain Following Flight mode, and for the capture of high resolution 2D maps for detection and identification of enemies in different environments, both urban and rural, and for designation and tracking of multiple targets on land and at sea.*
> 
> Among other sensors, the combination of AESA radar with FSO - Front Sector Optronics, embedded in the nose, at the factory - developed by Thales and Sagem for the Rafale - made me feel very comfortable, especially for attesting that the rules of engagement could be easily followed, in terms of friend or foe clear ID.* I was always confident in identifying targets to be attacked in the air, on the ground or at the sea, thanks to the automatic search and tracking integrated multi-sensor suite. Besides enabling us to execute the mission accurately, Rafale also gave us the ability to document, record, and evaluate, as a RECON.*
> 
> *Rafale’s claws*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The MBDA MICA missile (Missile d'interception et de combat aérien) is now the main air-to-air armament of the Rafale - multi-target, all weather, and fire-and-forget. Extremely agile, thanks to TVC - thrust vector control, and its small size, unusual compared to similar missiles of short and medium range, MICA has demonstrated its effectiveness from approximately 500 meters to 60 kilometers. IR versions (imaging infrared homing seeker), and RF (active homing radar seeker), are both equipped with filters that reduce the effectiveness of countermeasures such as flares and chaff. The MBDA MICA is also able to lock-on after launch (LOAL), which means in practice that it will "permit" shooting out of sensor range missile, effecting the acquisition and lock on target after launch, and even a new target designation via aircraft-missile link.
> 
> As mentioned before Rafale data fusion can use visual information from MICA IR infrared seeker, processing and merging data, acting as an extra sensor, while aboard the aircraft rails.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Rafale and Mirage 2000 C RDI ready for take off in Istres Air Force Base*
> 
> 
> *During our assessments, we performed BVR and WVR engagements with the Mirage 2000 C RDI, where we had the opportunity to confirm the combination of the sensibility of SPECTRA EW with the all-aspect launching and target acquisition of MICA IR. This allowed us to designate the target from any source (EM / IR / Laser Threat Detection - Electromagnetic Threat Detection / Infrared / Laser), when the security bubble around the Rafale was invaded, and to execute the missile launch “over the shoulder.” Over the shoulder means that a MICA can be fired at a target located at position six o’clock (behind the aircraft) without changing flight direction.*
> 
> We have been awarded the privilege of accompanying the latest stage of development of the next air-to-air long range missile to be employed by the Rafale, the MBDA METEOR. The Meteor is driven by a ramjet, a jet engine that has no moving parts, simple and small, but with great speed, at more than Mach 4, and lethal at more than 100 km. *We had access to simulator program integration, where the behavior of the new weapons were tested in conjunction with RBE2 AESA radar and other sensors that comprise the suite of data fusion of the Rafale and which guarantees a precise target acquisition and lock. We had the honor of performing some METEOR launches, which were recorded and added to the database of the development program and integration.*
> 
> *Peace of Mind at 900km/h, 20 meters* from the ground and surrounded by bad guys
> 
> Pilot safety is safeguarded by various systems of the Rafale. Starting with the seat, a tilt of 29º distributes the gravitational effect, preventing G-Loc, even at 9Gs that Dassault’s fighter can pull without surpass the operational load factors parameters, in air-to-air mode. The GPW - Ground Proximity Warning, alerts by audible and visual signals, to avoid colliding with the ground when the attitude and altitude of flight correspond to an approach to the surface. If needed, a pre-programmed recovery system can be accessed by the pilot, and in the case of spatial disorientation, there is an "anti-spin” feature even though the Rafale has not shown any tendency to spin, even in the corners of the envelope. Nevertheless, once anti-spin switch is activated, the flight computers redirect the aircraft to a safe flight regime with wings leveled, 5 degrees of climb, and 350 kts. In the absence of reaction by the pilot, GPW will also automatically initiate a maneuver leading back to the leveling of the airplane’s wings and a positive attitude to climb.
> 
> If Rafale safety features prevents CFIT events (controlled flight into terrain), it is exactly on the low flight (close to the ground - hilly or flat - or water) that the fighter shows one of its greatest strengths. With a unique capability and clever use of what I call "guerrilla stealth,"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Terrain Following mode is much more than an aid to agile piloting at very low altitude. It acts as an extra pilot in the cockpit, since the security I felt in the fidelity of the system - which combines the redundancy of AESA radar and the digital database, leave us entirely focused on the tactical objective of the mission: namely, to deliver the "package" in the right place at the right time... and yet, track airborne targets and threats during the raid.
> 
> *A Dainty Beast*
> 
> The thrust-to-weight ratio and wing loading of the Rafale allows this "beast" to carry a payload of up to 140% of its own weight. All this "brutishness" did not detract from Rafale´s performance, verve, and flair, since its agility, acceleration, and flexibility of speed inside the envelope confirm a successful aerodynamic model. I was able to test Rafale’s finest handling characteristics entering a loop at low speed, starting at 190 kts, dropping to 128 kts, at the top, and spanning only 2,300 feet.
> 
> Docile but also with positive response controls, the impressive short landing of the Rafale even in a gusty day like that we’re flying, she landed safely in less than 650 meters, with 510 kg of fuel remaining, two MICAs and a supersonic external belly tank. By the way, “Rafale” is French for gust.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Author in French Air Force Base Istres*
> 
> @Vauban @Abingdonboy @SR-91 @anant_s @AUSTERLITZ @nair @MilSpec @Capt.Popeye @SpArK @knight11 @Taygibay @others






Rafale is a true multirole fighter jet. It's a proud movement, Rafale jets will soon be MADE IN INDIA.


Check out what Indian Rafales would look like in reality.

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## Parul

NEW DELHI: Indian and French defence establishments are scrambling to seal the over $4 billion deal for 36 Rafale multi-role fighter jets in time for French President Francois Hollande's visit as chief guest for the Republic Day parade down the majestic Rajpath.

But defence ministry sources said there was "still some distance to go" before the final Rafale contract -- under which delivery of 36 twin-engine fighters in a "flyaway condition" will begin after two years - could actually be inked. This comes after the Manohar Parrikar-led defence acquisitions council on Monday reviewed progress of the final negotiations for the government-to-government fighter deal.

"It's unlikely the actual contract will be inked during Hollande's visit. Though all the complex technical and contractual issues have virtually been settled now, the commercial negotiations will take at least another 2-3 weeks. Then, it will require clearance from the finance ministry, and the final nod from the Cabinet Committee on Security," a source said.

Interestingly, after some hard-nosed negotiations, France has now apparently agreed to 30% offsets in the Rafale deal. This means French companies like Dassault will have to plough 30% of the contract value back into India as offsets.






India had specified 50% offsets in the original $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project for 126 fighters, under which the first 18 Rafales were to be imported from France, with the remaining 108 being made by defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics after transfer of technology.

But the MMRCA project was scrapped last year after persisting deadlock over Dassault's refusal to take "full responsibility" for the 108 jets to be made by HAL as well as the stiff hike in its production costs here.

Concurrently, the NDA government decided to go in for direct purchase of 36 Rafales during the Modi-Hollande summit in Paris on April 10 last year, citing the IAF's "critical operational necessity" and the need to cut time and costs.

Though France offered better terms and longer maintenance responsibility for India's direct acquisition of 36 jets, it said 50% offsets would hike the overall cost. Under the give-and-take of negotiations, both countries have now veered around to a 30% offset clause, said sources.

While the negotiations are only for 36 Rafales, less than one-third of the 126 envisaged under the MMRCA project, the new contract will have a mandatory clause for acquisition of another 18 jets under the 50% follow-on order option at the same price. The 36 jets are to be delivered in the same configuration as were tested and approved by the IAF during extensive field trials in the MMRCA project.

While IAF would have been much happier with 126 Rafales, considering it's down to just 35 fighter squadrons when at least 44 are required for the "collusive threat" from China and Pakistan, it will make do with 36 jets for now. The force is trying to bolster the serviceability of its existing Sukhoi-30MKI and Jaguar fleets, which still hovers around only 55%, to maintain its required air combat ratio.
India, France scramble to ink Rafale deal during Hollande's visit - Times of India

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## JanjaWeed

Rafale Jets Offered To India At French Air Force Price: Reports

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## GURU DUTT

JanjaWeed said:


> Rafale Jets Offered To India At French Air Force Price: Reports


as i said months earlier till date frenchies dont get the ammount they invested with UPA goverment (unoffically) they wont settele for any realisitic deal with india like it or not they will keep dragging it we should quit with rafale and go for F/A-18 E/F advanced super hornets and the weapons package americans are offring

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## JanjaWeed

GURU DUTT said:


> as i said months earlier till date frenchies dont get the ammount they invested with UPA goverment (unoffically) they wont settele for any realisitic deal with india like it or not they will keep dragging it we should quit with rafale and go for F/A-18 E/F advanced super hornets and the weapons package americans are offring


Stupid Frenchies! Who told them to pay kickback in advance.. that too based on the promise to buy 126 fighters?


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## GURU DUTT

JanjaWeed said:


> Stupid Frenchies! Who told them to pay kickback in advance.. that too based on the promise to buy 126 fighters?


had that been not the case tell me why did frenchies asked in last months of UPA goverment for a gaurentee that deal wont be changed if new goverment came ?

thing is frenchies were happy to work with UPA as they knew they can always make money and keep milking india look at M2k upgrade man 40million dollars for uprage that too without AESA radar and AESA based internal EW & ECM suite and minus weapons ?

look at the gorky deal with russians or look at any other deal by UPA in last 10 years of there rule

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## JanjaWeed

GURU DUTT said:


> had that been not the case tell me why did frenchies asked in last months of UPA goverment for a gaurentee that deal wont be changed if new goverment came ?
> 
> thing is frenchies were happy to work with UPA as they knew they can always make money and keep milking india look at M2k upgrade man 40million dollars for uprage that too without AESA radar and AESA based internal EW & ECM suite and minus weapons ?
> 
> look at the gorky deal with russians or look at any other deal by UPA in last 10 years of there rule


Precisely my point. So was UPA's deal with Augusta Westlands where we paid money in advance so that the kickbacks can be sorted out before delivering the Helis. Now the whole deal stands cancelled.. & no word about the lost money!

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## GURU DUTT

JanjaWeed said:


> Precisely my point. So was UPA's deal with Augusta Westlands where we paid money in advance so that the kickbacks can be sorted out before delivering the Helis. Now the whole deal stands cancelled.. & no word about the lost money!


list is endless and those who dint paid money in advance were blacklisted just look at the misrable goof up about that ammunation factory in bihar before the end of UPA 1 tenure have you heared of it ever since trust me MRCA if had been cleared would have had the same fate like half the money given and then after few months the firm got blcklisted and the earnest money given was no where to be seen ever since

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## PARIKRAMA

GURU DUTT said:


> list is endless and those who dint paid money in advance were blacklisted just look at the misrable goof up about that ammunation factory in bihar before the end of UPA 1 tenure have you heared of it ever since trust me MRCA if had been cleared would have had the same fate like half the money given and then after few months the firm got blcklisted and the earnest money given was no where to be seen ever since


Welcome guru bhai..good to see you back in action ...


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## Ankit Kumar

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA
This says deal is still away and first Rafales still farther away.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/691114794368143361

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## SUDIP

An mou has been signed regarding Rafael between Indian DM and French DM. Watching live on DDnews!!!!!!

Except some price negotiation technicalities all IGA has been achieved: PM Narendra Modi


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## PARIKRAMA

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/691551565904150528


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## JanjaWeed

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/rafale-deal-india-wants-more-add-ons/


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## ashok321

http://www.rediff.com/news/special/revealed-price-is-holding-up-the-rafale-deal/20160126.htm








*IMAGE: India won't pay more than $7 billion for 36 Rafale aircraft. The French want $11 billion.*


Major differences over price has held up the much anticipated contract worth at least more than $7 billion that India was to sign with French aviation major Dassault to buy 36 Rafale multi-role combat jets for the Indian Air Force, even as visiting French President Francois Hollande and Prime Minister Narendra Modi both said their governments had signed an inter-government agreement in New Delhi on Monday, January 25.

Indian government sources now indicate that it will take at least another month plus to hammer out a consensus between the two sides on how much each plane should cost.

Prime Minister Modi had announced in Paris last year that his government was scaling down the contract from the originally planned purchase of 126 fighter jets to a modest 36 planes.

Since then the two sides have been consistently trying to hammer out a solution to many contentious issues left behind by the original deal.

One of the initial hurdles was on the quantum of offsets.

While France was willing to agree to reinvest 30 per cent of the value of its contract in Indian entities to meet the offset obligations, India insisted on a 50 per cent offset clause to be met.

The French side finally agreed to invest 50 per cent of the value of its Rafale contract in India to boost the Make in India programme.

Two other tricky issues, however, needed to be sorted out before the actual contract document was ready to be signed.

*One, India wanted a sovereign guarantee from the French government as collateral. Paris was, however, reportedly willing to give only a letter of guarantee from President Hollande.

After initial hesitation, New Delhi has apparently agreed to accept this as a concession since the letter is being treated as part of the Inter-Government Agreement signed on Monday.*

The second and most important aspect -- that of the actual cost of the aircraft, including weapons systems and avionics -- is, however, proving to be the most difficult to resolve.

While the French have been insisting that the cost of the aircraft will invariably be higher given the lower numbers that India is willing to buy now, *New Delhi insists that it must get a competitive price given the fact that it did not walk out of the original tender when it could easily have done so.*

*While no one is officially willing to give the exact figure each side is firm on, BharatShakti.in has learnt that India is firm on not paying more than around $7 billion for the 36 aircraft, the French are quoting a much higher figure of about $11 billion.*

Given the wide gap in the figures, both sides may have to walk halfway to meet each other to resolve the issue and take the contract on the threshold of its final signing in the next few weeks.

Both Hollande and Modi have invested a great deal of their own political capital in re-configuring the original unwieldy tender, and government sources insist that the contract will be signed sooner than later.

Once that happens, it will bring the curtain down on one of the world's longest running competitions to sell fighter aircraft for any air force anywhere in the world.

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## 帅的一匹

11 billions? Are they nuts?

We they asked for 11 billions and Indians find out that 7 billions is cheap? Way of bargain.

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## Kal Muah

wanglaokan said:


> 11 billions? Are they nuts?
> 
> We they asked for 11 billions and Indians find out that 7 billions is cheap? Way of bargain.


You are gonna argue about our bargain capability ? .

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## jetray

India could spend that money on R&D and get to do with a sub par aircraft. Seller obviously wants to recoup all the money spent on R&D and milk the customer as much as possible. There is no better alternative to home grown systems.


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## $@rJen

wanglaokan said:


> 11 billions? Are they nuts?



that includes the weapon package and life cycle costs

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## Kal Muah

sarjenprabhu said:


> that includes the weapon package and life cycle costs


Sir, never reply a guy who questions an Indian about bargaining capabilty, we are born for this

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## 帅的一匹

Kal Muah said:


> Sir, never reply a guy who questions an Indian about bargaining capabilty, we are born for this


What is the price Egypt pay for the Rafale?


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## Dungeness

After all those headlines in these years and exhausting excitements, now two parties are back to square one?  

Indian air force was supposed to be the FIRST foreign user with that "Mother of all Deals". Now you can at best finish 3rd, the Egyptian AF and Qatar AF have finished their deals ahead of you without too much noise.

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## Kal Muah

wanglaokan said:


> What is the price Egypt pay for the Rafale?


A lot of things get involved in that : Maintaince of years, spares, weapons bay, etc. can you point me to a source about egypt rafale configuration?
P.S a clean configuration is cheaper than loaded.


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## Malik Alashter

wanglaokan said:


> What is the price Egypt pay for the Rafale?


No less than 200 million $ per plane this is really a huge waste of money!!!.

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## 帅的一匹

No money, no war.


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## Malik Alashter

wanglaokan said:


> No money, no war.


Better.


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## Papa Dragon

$11 billion for 36 jets is still very expensive no matter whatever spares, weapons package they include. Even though the French say they are selling at the same price as French Air Force got them for , $200m/plane is literally looting the IAF. 

India should seriously stop acting as a cash cow for foreign defence firms and focus on it's own indigenous defence industry.

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## $@rJen

wanglaokan said:


> What is the price Egypt pay for the Rafale?



Egypt paid 5.9 billion for 24 jets while Qatar paid 7.2 billions for 24 jets... i think all packages from weapons to maintenance were included . So why are the french asking for 11 billlons !!!! is because there's a 50% offset which has to be invested in india



Papa Dragon said:


> $200m/plane is literally looting the IAF.



200 mil a plane included with weapons and maintenance.. we're buying mki's less than 100 million but the life cycle and weapons of it would cost more than 200 million and that too with a poor availability rate... you want a diamond but want to pay only the cost of gold??? 

The Qataris paid 7 billions for 24 jets we're buying 36, 12 jets more than of Qatar which means the price would be somewhere b/t 7-9 billion and french has to invest 50% of the amount in india.. so they're asking 2 billions more... that's perfectly understandable in my view

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## kaykay

Well the final deal cost( hopefully 7-9 Billion USD) will include 50% offset( Means French have to invest 50% cost of total deal in India), weapon costs and life cycle cost for atleast 20 years.



Papa Dragon said:


> $11 billion for 36 jets is still very expensive no matter whatever spares, weapons package they include. Even though the French say they are selling at the same price as French Air Force got them for , $200m/plane is literally looting the IAF.
> 
> India should seriously stop acting as a cash cow for foreign defence firms and focus on it's own indigenous defence industry.


First they are asking for 11 Billion USD while we are paying only 7 so lets wait for final figures. Secondly deal will include 50% offset too( they have to invest 50% of money in India itself) and not to forget weapons and life cycle cost included( for what years is remain to be seen). Alao sir, even new MKIs are costing use 100 million USD/unit without weapons and life cycle cost( which is massive).


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## cerberus

My source's say its almost locked on 65,000 crore which 9.6 billion $ good

And yes this was right french was quoting 80,000 crore figure which 11 billion $ with 30% Off set

Point to be noted here is about off-set we get
So initially
If the deal is locked on 9.6 billion $ with 30% offset the actual price we pay is around 6.72 billion $ excluding offset amount with weapons package and spares 

Here just in TOI is reporting same
http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Ind...-over-cost-of-Rafale/articleshow/50724401.cms

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## Saitama

-305.5555556 million dollars for a single aircraft with spares,maintainece and other packages.
-305.555 which approximately equals to 2074 crores rupees. At current exchange rate.

Now thats just wow! In not so very cool way.


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## kaykay

cerberus said:


> My source's say its almost locked on 65,000 crore which 9.6 billion $ good
> 
> And yes this was right french was quoting 80,000 crore figure which 11 billion $ with 30% Off set
> 
> Point to be noted here is about off-set we get
> So initially
> If the deal is locked on 9.6 billion $ with 30% offset the actual price we pay is around 6.72 billion $ excluding offset amount with weapons package and spares
> 
> Here just in TOI is reporting same
> http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Ind...-over-cost-of-Rafale/articleshow/50724401.cms


They have agreed to 50% offset not 30%( which was earlier figure). This is first time India is getting 50% offset for a deal though.


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## PARIKRAMA

The deal was not signed bcz of not price issues. The price is being quoted at Rs 800 Crs (Hindu, businessline) and Rs 750 Crs (IBN Khabar). That inclusive of everything with weapons load.. India is negotiating to get it closer to 650-700 Crs.

The haggling is more from the perspective of spare which we are purchasing upfront for 10 years.

In another few months you will come to know about official announcement of MII under which total birds made in India will be close to 225+ equaling FrAF. On top price assumed is closer to in the bracket of Rs 500-600 Crs under MII with orders over time and localisation aspect.

Relax for some time.. you will see lots of such reports in next few weeks as everybody would like to create a pressure scenario for deal to falter but you can be assured that it wont at all..

If you do basic maths,
800 x 54 = Rs 43,200 crs
The spares for 10 years estimated at around 40% of this cost + other items to be brought upfront for 90% availability clause = 320 x 54 = 17280 Crs

So 43200+17280 = 60480 Crs approx

As you can see thats the basic approximation..

If we dont factor in the spares angle then we have a deal at just 43200 Crs or $ 6.45 Bn all inclusive with weapons.

Now if we reduce the price per jet all loaded, the cost of spare package also comes down due to dependency. On top with MII the spares beyond 10 years will be locally purchased. But certain critical items will have to be procured for such high availability clause implementation.

Its not a rocket science really. We will sign it and release the amount mostly in march end or April beginning based on Financial availability.

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## cerberus

kaykay said:


> They have agreed to 50% offset not 30%( which was earlier figure). This is first time India is getting 50% offset for a deal though.


Yeah But still On Negotiation stage here India want More Add On of what i heard in Last 24 hrs 



Well The IGA, once in place, will facilitate the drafting of further contracts between the two sides and bring in private players such as Dassault, the manufacturers of Rafale, as well as the Indian offset partners. With 50 per cent offsets — meaning use of Indian component — the deal, when finalised, is set to be the biggest ever offset contract for India once and if finalised.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/rafale-deal-india-wants-more-add-ons/

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## Roybot

sarjenprabhu said:


> Egypt paid 5.9 billion for 24 jets while Qatar paid 7.2 billions for 24 jets... i think all packages from weapons to maintenance were included . So why are the french asking for 11 billlons !!!! is because there's a 50% offset which has to be invested in india
> 
> 
> 
> 200 mil a plane included with weapons and maintenance.. we're buying mki's less than 100 million but the life cycle and weapons of it would cost more than 200 million and that too with a poor availability rate... you want a diamond but want to pay only the cost of gold???
> 
> The Qataris paid 7 billions for 24 jets we're buying 36, 12 jets more than of Qatar which means the price would be somewhere b/t 7-9 billion and french has to invest 50% of the amount in india.. so they're asking 2 billions more... that's perfectly understandable in my view



How is that acceptable? So we just pay a premium to France, so that we get 50% offset as investment, in the projects which France decides to invest? Or we can just not pay them any premium, not just for the offset clause, and instead we invest the left over money ourselves?

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## $@rJen

Roybot said:


> How is that acceptable? So we just pay a premium to France, so that we get 50% offset as investment, in the projects which France decides to invest? Or we can just not pay them any premium, not just for the offset clause, and instead we invest the left over money ourselves?



they're not asking us stright away due to the reason... the reason of investing 50% offset is pushing them to hike the price. no one is going to invest back 50%,, what do the profit they get??? so they\d to hike the price of the jets..


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## The BrOkEn HeArT

11 billion too much. Na hamara , Na tmhara , 9 billion par done kro chalo.


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## egodoc222

Malik Alashter said:


> No less than 200 million $ per plane this is really a huge waste of money!!!.


Waste?
How exactly?
Are you doubting rafale capabilities?


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## dray

Is Rafale the last good plane on earth? Can't we really buy something else at a reasonable price? It's not that our enemies are using alien tech. The price France is quoting was the original price of the deal for 126 jets!

That's why we need to focus more on our own programs..


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## Lonely Hermit

egodoc222 said:


> Waste?
> How exactly?
> Are you doubting rafale capabilities?


and what is this super duper capability that warrants such a high cost ?



sarjenprabhu said:


> they're not asking us stright away due to the reason... the reason of investing 50% offset is pushing them to hike the price. no one is going to invest back 50%,, what do the profit they get??? so they\d to hike the price of the jets..


They are not donating 50% they will be investing in a economy which will grow @ 7 to 8 % for the next decade . An RTI needs to be filed, Indian tax payer cannot be taken for a ride like this.



PARIKRAMA said:


> In another few months you will come to know about official announcement of MII under which total birds made in India will be close to 225+ equaling FrAF. On top price assumed is closer to in the bracket of Rs 500-600 Crs under MII with orders over time and localisation aspect.


Are you out of your mind you want 200 of these white elephant. That is capital expenditure of excess of 50+ billion dollar . Does IAF has enough money to pay for all these aircraft in their inventory ?


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## kaykay

Lonely Hermit said:


> and what is this super duper capability that warrants such a high cost ?
> 
> 
> They are not donating 50% they will be investing in a economy which will grow @ 7 to 8 % for the next decade . An RTI needs to be filed, Indian tax payer cannot be taken for a ride like this.


Gone are the days of cheap fighters if you buy. Either build own or pay a hefty price. Even MKIs are costing now $100 million/unit without weapons and life cycle cost( which will touch more than 200 million over life time i.e roughly same as Rafale). Hell we are paying $4 Billion USD just to upgrade T-50 to FGFA( you can guess the cost of aircraft though lol) with no offset ofcourse.


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## Lonely Hermit

kaykay said:


> Gone are the days of cheap fighters if you buy. Either build own or pay a hefty price. Even MKIs are costing now $100 million/unit without weapons and life cycle cost( which will touch more than 200 million over life time i.e roughly same as Rafale). Hell we are paying $4 Billion USD just to upgrade T-50 to FGFA( you can guess the cost of aircraft though lol) with no offset ofcourse.


Source for this 100 million $ claim, Manohar Parrikar has already stated recently it cost $56 million to manufacture su 30mki in India.
_""“The Sukhoi 30 choice is always there. What I mean to say is: upgrade the Sukhoi 30, make it more capable,”_ said India’s Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar.

The Su-30MKI fighter was specially developed for India by Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and 200 aircraft has already entered IAF service as of August 2014.

The minister also made it clear that the IAF is concerned with the fighter costs. _“It is not always… go and purchase it. A cost effective purchase is also important,”_ he said.

The average cost of a Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter jet is approximately $56 million, whereas France’s Rafale fighter varies from €64 million to €90 million ($75-$106 million).""
https://www.rt.com/news/222131-rafale-deal-under-question/
@MilSpec sir your view on this is the Indian tax payer being taken for a ride by this deal ?


----------



## kaykay

Lonely Hermit said:


> Source for this 100 million $ claim, Manohar Parrikar has already stated recently it cost $56 million to manufacture su 30mki in India.
> _""“The Sukhoi 30 choice is always there. What I mean to say is: upgrade the Sukhoi 30, make it more capable,”_ said India’s Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar.
> 
> The Su-30MKI fighter was specially developed for India by Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and 200 aircraft has already entered IAF service as of August 2014.
> 
> The minister also made it clear that the IAF is concerned with the fighter costs. _“It is not always… go and purchase it. A cost effective purchase is also important,”_ he said.
> 
> The average cost of a Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter jet is approximately $56 million, whereas France’s Rafale fighter varies from €64 million to €90 million ($75-$106 million).""
> https://www.rt.com/news/222131-rafale-deal-under-question/
> @MilSpec sir your view on this is the Indian tax payer being taken for a ride by this deal ?


Well he said 75-100 million USD/ Rafale too but is it? India bought last batch of 42 Su-30MKIs in excess of 4 billion USD.
http://www.asian-defence.net/2010/08/russias-sale-of-su-30mki-fighters-in.html?m=1


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## cerberus

Lonely Hermit said:


> Source for this 100 million $ claim, Manohar Parrikar has already stated recently it cost $56 million to manufacture su 30mki in India.
> _""“The Sukhoi 30 choice is always there. What I mean to say is: upgrade the Sukhoi 30, make it more capable,”_ said India’s Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar.
> 
> The Su-30MKI fighter was specially developed for India by Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and 200 aircraft has already entered IAF service as of August 2014.
> 
> The minister also made it clear that the IAF is concerned with the fighter costs. _“It is not always… go and purchase it. A cost effective purchase is also important,”_ he said.
> 
> The average cost of a Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter jet is approximately $56 million, whereas France’s Rafale fighter varies from €64 million to €90 million ($75-$106 million).""
> https://www.rt.com/news/222131-rafale-deal-under-question/
> @MilSpec sir your view on this is the Indian tax payer being taken for a ride by this deal ?


Just Do the Technical Comparison of these Jets You will Get Answer Also
Compare the Serviceability Rate.and Maintenance Cost


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## 45'22'

Lonely Hermit said:


> Source for this 100 million $ claim, Manohar Parrikar has already stated recently it cost $56 million to manufacture su 30mki in India.
> _""“The Sukhoi 30 choice is always there. What I mean to say is: upgrade the Sukhoi 30, make it more capable,”_ said India’s Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar.
> 
> The Su-30MKI fighter was specially developed for India by Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and 200 aircraft has already entered IAF service as of August 2014.
> 
> The minister also made it clear that the IAF is concerned with the fighter costs. _“It is not always… go and purchase it. A cost effective purchase is also important,”_ he said.
> 
> The average cost of a Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter jet is approximately $56 million, whereas France’s Rafale fighter varies from €64 million to €90 million ($75-$106 million).""
> https://www.rt.com/news/222131-rafale-deal-under-question/
> @MilSpec sir your view on this is the Indian tax payer being taken for a ride by this deal ?


Even i m unsure about the price 
Digged up some articles and found this one
http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/fighterplanes/texts/articles/su-30mkicost.html

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy how much does it actually costs us ...the mki's ?


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## cerberus

kaykay said:


> Well he said 75-100 million USD/ Rafale too but is it? India bought last batch of 42 Su-30MKIs in excess of 4 billion USD.
> http://www.asian-defence.net/2010/08/russias-sale-of-su-30mki-fighters-in.html?m=1


Also the Technical comparison BTW two jets If Bought Latest Rafale with Integrated AESA ,Sensor Fusion Spectra and Weapons Include MICA and Hammer And Meteor Plus the Low RCS Factor


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## kaykay

45'22' said:


> Even i m unsure about the price
> Digged up some articles and found this one
> http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/fighterplanes/texts/articles/su-30mkicost.html
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy how much does it actually costs us ...the mki's ?



http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-aircraft-deals-with-friend-russia-costing-dear-1424437


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## Lonely Hermit

kaykay said:


> Well he said 75-100 million USD/ Rafale too but is it? India bought last batch of 42 Su-30MKIs in excess of 4 billion USD.
> http://www.asian-defence.net/2010/08/russias-sale-of-su-30mki-fighters-in.html?m=1


The defense minister categorically stated the cost is 56million $, and looking at the price that french are quoting it sound like they are asking excess of 100 m $. Also infrastructure for su 30 are already in place so spares are easily available.


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## 45'22'

kaykay said:


> http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-aircraft-deals-with-friend-russia-costing-dear-1424437


This came in 2012 and quotes a diff price

http://m.sputniknews.com/business/20121224/178368313.html

I dont know whether the source is reliable or not?


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## kaykay

Lonely Hermit said:


> The defense minister categorically stated the cost is 56million $, and looking the price that french are quoting it sound they are asking excess of 100 m $. Also infrastructure for su 30 are already in place so spares are easily available.


Sir despite all these infrastructure and 'easily available spares', we are trying hard for MKIs to be available enough (70-75%) which they are not currently ( hopefully will be). While here french are ensuring 90% availability rate for Rafales. Yes price is on the upper side and I agree on that but considering maintenance cost and availability rate, It won't be a bad bet in long term.
PS: For me a 54 Rafale fleet is enough and I am no fan of 200-300 Rafales as that seems impractical for now.


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## Lonely Hermit

cerberus said:


> Also the Technical comparison BTW two jets If Bought Latest Rafale with Integrated AESA ,Sensor Fusion Spectra and Weapons Include MICA and Hammer And Meteor Plus the Low RCS Factor


Most of these can easily be upgraded in su 30 and lca at a much cheaper rate.
What ever be the case I as taxpayer hope that we never buy the damn thing.


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## Tshering22

Even $7 billion is way too much!

WTF are they selling us? F-22s?

Rafales are good but they are costing more than a 5th generation jet per unit price. 

What's wrong with Dassault!?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## cerberus

kaykay said:


> Sir despite all these infrastructure and 'easily available spares', we are trying hard for MKIs to be available enough (70-75%) which they are not currently ( hopefully will be). While here french are ensuring 90% availability rate for Rafales. Yes price is on the upper side and I agree on that but considering maintenance cost and availability rate, It won't be a bad bet in long term.
> PS: For me a 54 Rafale fleet is enough and I am no fan of 200-300 Rafales as that seems impractical for now.


Both Fighter Are Different League All Together.Well After IAF Navy is Interested in Rafale M Variant For IAC-1,IAC-2 Requirement
http://thediplomat.com/2016/01/indi...ghter-jets-for-navys-newest-aircraft-carrier/



Lonely Hermit said:


> Most of these are can easily be upgraded in su 30 and lca at a much cheaper rate.
> What ever be the case I as taxpayer hope that we never buy the damn thing.


Who Told You that It Will Cost Us Popping 12 Billion $ For MKI MLU that Price Quoted Few Years back 
http://cassindia.com/inner_page.php?id=53&&task=military
LCA is Far From Replacing Rafale which Omni-role Fighter 

MKI is Never Designed For SEAD/DEAD Mission Look at Serviceability Rate Difference Engine Malfunction Rate of Russians Also PLAAF Access to Similar Accessories 

Rafale is on other Hand is Superior Platform in terms of Both Capabilities and Serviceability 
French are Also agreed on 50 % Offset comes in New DPP 2016



Tshering22 said:


> Even $7 billion is way too much!
> 
> WTF are they selling us? F-22s?
> 
> Rafales are good but they are costing more than a 5th generation jet per unit price.
> 
> What's wrong with Dassault!?


Operating cost For F-22 is almost 700 million $ You Know This Fact
So what’s the cost? As little as $137 million per jet and as much as $678 million, depending on how and what you count. 
http://www.wired.com/2011/12/f-22-real-cost/


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## Pandora

Wow i dont see this going anywhere if it is true. Differences can be resolved if they were fighting over millions but french are literally looting India now. No matter what people this is a total rip off at 11 billion. Why not just go for SU 35 i am sure Russia can provide 3 times more SU35 in same amount and india wont even have to setup any new maintainance capability. Moving away from core of your technology will be a disaster if french ever decide to hold up spares over mere spats.



Tshering22 said:


> Even $7 billion is way too much!
> 
> WTF are they selling us? F-22s?
> 
> Rafales are good but they are costing more than a 5th generation jet per unit price.
> 
> What's wrong with Dassault!?



They know that india cant back out of this deal otherwise it will be a major embarrassment. So they are trying to Milk the cow which is literally overflowing with milk.

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## Edevelop

I smell corruption


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## Lonely Hermit

cerberus said:


> Who Told You that It Will Cost Us Popping 12 Billion $ For MKI MLU that Price Quoted Few Years back
> http://cassindia.com/inner_page.php?id=53&&task=military
> LCA is Far From Replacing Rafale which Omni-role Fighter
> 
> MKI is Never Designed For SEAD/DEAD Mission Look at Serviceability Rate Difference Engine Malfunction Rate of Russians Also PLAAF Access to Similar Accessories
> 
> Rafale is on other Hand is Superior Platform in terms of Both Capabilities and Serviceability
> French are Also agreed on 50 % Offset comes in New DPP 2016


By 2016 serviceability of su 30 will be 75% which will be at acceptable level. If IAF would have stopped drooling over rafale and invested in spare parts this would never have happened.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...-supply-of-sukhoi30-spares/article7960633.ece
"Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had informed Parliament that efforts were on to improve the serviceability rate of Sukhoi’s to 75 per cent by this year end from the current level of 56-57 per cent." 
For SEAD and DEAD mission you also need numbers which can easily be filled by lca, or are you stating 36 rafale will be used against combined might of PAF and PLAAF. How the hell is IAF planning to maintain its sanctioned strength of 45 squadrons if they intend on buying such expensive platform. And if I recollect correctly MMRCA was floated when there was a delay lca program it was touted as a stop gap measure at a cost 11 Billion $ for 126 aircraft. Now that LCA production has started what is the need to continue this facade.
I also don't get this terminology that IAF use Heavy, medium and light aircraft . USAF with all its budget uses the light F16 and heavy f15 and standardized their entire inventory based on these 2 platform. But IAF wants to buys everything in bits and pieces, and then complain about serviceability of aircraft.


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## kaykay

smuhs1 said:


> Wow i dont see this going anywhere if it is true. Differences can be resolved if they were fighting over millions but french are literally looting India now. No matter what people this is a total rip off at 11 billion. Why not just go for SU 35 i am sure Russia can provide 3 times more SU35 in same amount and india wont even have to setup any new maintainance capability. Moving away from core of your technology will be a disaster if french ever decide to hold up spares over mere spats.
> 
> 
> 
> They know that india cant back out of this deal otherwise it will be a major embarrassment. So they are trying to Milk the cow which is literally overflowing with milk.


Who told you that India will pay 11 Billion USD? Most likely 7-9 Billion USD with 50% offset( means 50% deal cost will be invested in India itself).



cb4 said:


> I smell corruption


Since its govt to govt deal, Chances of corruption is very low. Also everything will be wide open to see( any Indian can ask for record of each rupee spent through RTI)


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## cerberus

Lonely Hermit said:


> By 2016 serviceability of su 30 will be 75% which will be at acceptable level. If IAF would have stopped drooling over rafale and invested in spare parts this would never have happened.
> http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...-supply-of-sukhoi30-spares/article7960633.ece


It Will be Still Rafale is needed to supplement falling squadrons and To Maintain technical Parity with PLAAF. 


Lonely Hermit said:


> For SEAD and DEAD mission you also need numbers which can easily be filled by lca, or are you stating 36 rafale will be used against combined might of PAF and PLAAF


LCA is Light Weight Category Fighter Its Built Replace Mig-21 With Combat Radius of 500-600 Km its Not Suited For Deep Penetration Mission 

As of Know LCA Production Rate is Slow And its Operational Requirement is Different From Rafale 

Rafale will be the First Aircraft in IAF to which will have operational AESA with Sensor Fusion


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## Tshering22

smuhs1 said:


> Wow i dont see this going anywhere if it is true. Differences can be resolved if they were fighting over millions but french are literally looting India now. No matter what people this is a total rip off at 11 billion. Why not just go for SU 35 i am sure Russia can provide 3 times more SU35 in same amount and india wont even have to setup any new maintainance capability. Moving away from core of your technology will be a disaster if french ever decide to hold up spares over mere spats.
> 
> They know that india cant back out of this deal otherwise it will be a major embarrassment. So they are trying to Milk the cow which is literally overflowing with milk.



You are right. Let's see how this pans up.


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## cerberus

kaykay said:


> Who told you that India will pay 11 Billion USD? Most likely 7-9 Billion USD with 50% offset( means 50% deal cost will be invested in India itself).


Guy is Talking about Replacing Rafale With LCA

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## Tshering22

cerberus said:


> As of Know LCA Production Rate is Slow And its Operational Requirement is Different From Rafale



But they are taking orders from other countries for Tejas. 

This is confusing.


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## cerberus

Tshering22 said:


> But theyd are taking orders from other countries for Tejas.
> 
> This is confusing.


 No they are Not First they Have to Full Fill Indian Orders
LCA will go Full Production only by 2018
Although LCA is a LightWeight Category Aircraft



smuhs1 said:


> Wow i dont see this going anywhere if it is true. Differences can be resolved if they were fighting over millions but french are literally looting India now. No matter what people this is a total rip off at 11 billion. Why not just go for SU 35 i am sure Russia can provide 3 times more SU35 in same amount and india wont even have to setup any new maintainance capability. Moving away from core of your technology will be a disaster if french ever decide to hold up spares over mere spats.
> 
> 
> 
> They know that india cant back out of this deal otherwise it will be a major embarrassment. So they are trying to Milk the cow which is literally overflowing with milk.


Deal cost is mere 9.6 billion $ with 50 % offset thats's 4.8 billion $ For you


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## Tshering22

cerberus said:


> No they are Not First they Have to Full Fill Indian Orders
> LCA will go Full Production only by 2018
> Although LCA is a LightWeight Category Aircraft
> 
> 
> Deal cost is mere 9.6 billion $ with 50 % offset thats's 4.8 billion $ For you



See this:

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/01/idn-take-one-gulf-country-has-requested.html

This is what is confusing.


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## Lonely Hermit

cerberus said:


> It Will be Still Rafale is needed to supplement falling squadrons and To Maintain technical Parity with PLAAF.


Whatever be the technical parity, any war with PAF and PLAAF will lead to high level of attrition and for that you need cheap fighters like lca and su 30 in numbers. 


cerberus said:


> LCA is Light Weight Category Fighter Its Built Replace Mig-21 With Combat Radius of 500-600 Km its Not Suited For Deep Penetration Mission


Check the geographic map of pakistan most of their population centre lay within this 500 to 600 Km radius . 





In case of China I doubt even SU 30 will have the range of flying over all the way in Tibetan plateau to attack their main population centre .


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## doublemaster

In April 2015 all the propaganda was there to say deal costly only 4B$ which is way cheaper that Egypt deal. But now discussion is around 7b$?? Morover government is saying again and again that we are ok with the deal then bargaining price?? What kind of business model is this???


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## dadeechi

Every Billion saved on RAFALE would directly go into FGFA development.


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## cerberus

Lonely Hermit said:


> In case of China I doubt even SU 30 will have the range of flying over all the way in Tibetan plateau to attack their main population centre .


What is Combat Payload LCA Its Light Weight Category Fighter with Combat Payload of 3700 KG.Still Not Suitable For Deep Strike Missions 


Lonely Hermit said:


> Whatever be the technical parity, any war with PAF and PLAAF will lead to high level of attrition and for that you need cheap fighters like lca and su 30 in numbers.


Which Still in LALA Land DRDO Babus still Not Able to Deliver SP-2 Since Last year Come to Real World
Dear



doublemaster said:


> In April 2015 all the propaganda was there to say deal costly only 4B$ which is way cheaper that Egypt deal. But now discussion is around 7b$?? Morover government is saying again and again that we are ok with the deal then bargaining price?? What kind of business model is this???


Sir ji what is offset 50 % Actually Do you Know


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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

The price of 11 billion is a rip off. Even at 7 billion it is very expensive.

Its better to just use the money for domestic production and RD. 

In a country where micro loans can drastically influence a persons future, 11 billion dollars is like taking 10 dollars from every one in India and giving nothing in return (for the common man).

If I was Modi, I would just tell the French to fcuk off if they bring up 11 billion dollars.


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## cerberus

Tshering22 said:


> See this:
> 
> http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/01/idn-take-one-gulf-country-has-requested.html
> 
> This is what is confusing.


Do you Even Read what is Written they ASK for Evaluation only . Secondly Do you think Any Country Will Buy It Without FOC.So First Priority it should Get FOC from IAF.



+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> The price of 11 billion is a rip off. Even at 7 billion it is very expensive.
> 
> Its better to just use the money for domestic production and RD.
> 
> In a country where micro loans can drastically influence a persons future, 11 billion dollars is like taking 10 dollars from every one in India and giving nothing in return (for the common man).
> 
> If I was Modi, I would just tell the French to fcuk off if they bring up 11 billion dollars.


Its 9 billion which 60,000 $ with 50 % offset


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## Lonely Hermit

cerberus said:


> What is Combat Payload LCA Its Light Weight Category Fighter with Combat Payload of 3700 KG.
> 
> Which Still in LALA Land DRDO Babus still Not Able to Deliver SP-2 Since Last year Come to Piratical World
> Dear


What does combat load have to do with attrition rate are you stating in war these 36 rafale be more than enough for PAF and PLAAF. China is manufacturing 100's of J-10, J-11 and J-16 and other kind of flanker variant and you are pitting 36 rafales against such a threat. Victory in modern warfare is based on size of a country industrial base(ask the Germans when in ww2 their Tiger tank where overwhelmed by numerically superior T-34) LCAmk1a and LCAmk2 and SU30 are more than enough to tackle our current threat perception.


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## cerberus

For Fan boys If you Don't Know the Technical stuff Don't Try To be Expert Here Now Let me explain As Simple Term 
Both Qatar and Egypt Paid Popping 5.9 billion $ and 7.2 Billion $ For Just 24 Aircraft without Offset or TOT grantee from Dassault 

But In India Case India through IGA Get 36 aircraft with Full Weapons Package And Spare in 9.6 Billion $ with the guarantee of 50 % offset Value of the Amount Will be Invested into India Itself 

So Actual Cost of the Deal is 9.6 Billion $ - 50% offset Amount = It Will Cost Us 4.8 Billion $ Lesst than Both Egypt And Qatar And So you Challenging Baniya Mind Here

Now You Say Why French Compromised Kid There Is Lot Other things France is Hatching Through MII(Make in India)
One of 13 agreements Sign Yesterday
Mahindra by forging a tie-up with Airbus to manufacture defence choppers as the government readies to place $10 billion worth of helicopter orders for reconnaissance, surveillance and naval utility. 







Meanwhile other Deals on Cards 





http://www.indiatimes.com/news/indi...uce-makeinindia-military-choppers-249820.html
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/mahi...licopters-among-16-india-france-deals-1269623

Few more Sweets
French companies are likely to invest almost $10 billion in India in the next five years and a major portion of this will be in the industrial sector making France an important player in the Indian government’s Make in India initiative to boost the manufacturing sector, the visiting French Minister for Finance and Public Accounts Michel Sapin said on Monday.

http://www.thehindu.com/business/fr...in-india-over-next-5-years/article8152119.ece

French are Not Stupid Who Compromise Long-term Goals For Cheap Short Term Deal
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/current-affairs/250116/india-france-sign-13-agreements.html



TC
Cerberus

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## PARIKRAMA

Lonely Hermit said:


> Are you out of your mind you want 200 of these white elephant. That is capital expenditure of excess of 50+ billion dollar . Does IAF has enough money to pay for all these aircraft in their inventory ?



As much as you dislike your information is half baked. First things first, I do get enough information for Rafale deal as my job involves poking my nose up financial aspects for OEMs in global supply chain daily.

Second thing as much as you hate its its not 50Bn dollar

Thirdly the planes under MII is 150 approx Rafales and around 100+ in Rafale M each costing us around an median price of Rs 540 crs over time due to break even, economies of scale and local supply chain via OEM setup. Even at bare minimum equalling FrAF order equalling its 540x225= 121500 crs or approx 18bn change. Round it up max 19bn. Even at 600 crs the upper limit of the spectrum in the same report estimation , the price works out to 600x225= 135000 crs or 20bn $.

Fourthly why the cheap reason being a average Rafale production involves around 6000 people in Dassualt whole supply chain. If rafales are produced at say 3 per month this number increases to 9000 odd numbers burdening the salary and other benefits by raising it by almost 40-50% over present levels. Thus the line for India is a strategic in nature to control costs and make it attractive for exports.

fifthly, IAF had forecasted a war time availability of MKI at 66% previously and now efforts are to raise it to 75% for that itself specific LRUs and spares which we are dependent on Russia has to be localised. such items are critically not being allowed to localised. So at best we may see MKI at max 70% . on this you will see DM MP very soon replying in Parliament.

Sixthly, the MKI and LCA cannot perform what ever people say in general. Agreed MKI is a air superiority bird but India does require a fighter which can do TASA mission along with its capability to be a DPSA. Neither MKI or LCA fits that bill

Seventhly, the tech help transferred is to LCA navy under carriage which needs urgent help or you can take it from me the project is ATM stuck. The naval LCA success is the biggest need as in future our next bird naval version needs the expertise we learn there.

Eightly, the tech help extends to AMCA project as well as giving access to Neuron tech.

This is what all I can tell you. Beyond this no one will confirm you anything. I know bcz as I said I deal directly with the OEMs setting shop in India and that's why I could give some solid information

The MII is coming and so are the numbers. This deal will become the benchmark and in future even FGFA will need structuring at par or better than this MII deal. Heck all IA or IN deals will require similar benchmarking. So expect a strong opposition lobby to paint the town with news reports all over.

One more news between ydy and today, Dassault has conveyed to their 600 odd suppliers to come out for time sheet for opening their business in India. The target for first Rafale in MII rollout is year end 2019 or max 2020. Any delay will cause issues for financial part as Indian government has given a timeline already. 

Enjoy and regards

@Abingdonboy

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## cerberus

Lonely Hermit said:


> What does combat load have to do with attrition rate are you stating in war these 36 rafale be more than enough for PAF and PLAAF.


Who Told You That Rafale is Final Tally Will Go To 36 the Clause is For +18 More 
Also Navy Has Shown Its Own Interest is RAFALE M for It Aircraft Carrier Requirements 


Lonely Hermit said:


> LCAmk1a and LCAmk2 and SU30 are more than enough to tackle our current threat perception.


the Firts Squaron LCA will be get operational by 2018-19 As For MK2 its Gone Beyond 2024-25 thats A Bare Truth


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## Lonely Hermit

PARIKRAMA said:


> As much as you dislike your information is half baked. First things first, I do get enough information for Rafale deal as my job involves poking my nose up financial aspects for OEMs in global supply chain daily.
> 
> Second thing as much as you hate its its not 50Bn dollar
> 
> Thirdly the planes under MII is 150 approx Rafales and around 100+ in Rafale M each costing us around an median price of Rs 540 crs over time due to break even, economies of scale and local supply chain via OEM setup. Even at bare minimum equalling FrAF order equalling its 540x225= 121500 crs or approx 18bn change. Round it up max 19bn. Even at 600 crs the upper limit of the spectrum in the same report estimation , the price works out to 600x225= 135000 crs or 20bn $.
> 
> Fourthly why the cheap reason being a average Rafale production involves around 6000 people in Dassualt whole supply chain. If rafales are produced at say 3 per month this number increases to 9000 odd numbers burdening the salary and other benefits by raising it by almost 40-50% over present levels. Thus the line for India is a strategic in nature to control costs and make it attractive for exports.
> 
> fifthly, IAF had forecasted a war time availability of MKI at 66% previously and now efforts are to raise it to 75% for that itself specific LRUs and spares which we are dependent on Russia has to be localised. such items are critically not being allowed to localised. So at best we may see MKI at max 70% . on this you will see DM MP very soon replying in Parliament.
> 
> Sixthly, the MKI and LCA cannot perform what ever people say in general. Agreed MKI is a air superiority bird but India does require a fighter which can do TASA mission along with its capability to be a DPSA. Neither MKI or LCA fits that bill
> 
> Seventhly, the tech help transferred is to LCA navy under carriage which needs urgent help or you can take it from me the project is ATM stuck. The naval LCA success is the biggest need as in future our next bird naval version needs the expertise we learn there.
> 
> Eightly, the tech help extends to AMCA project as well as giving access to Neuron tech.
> 
> This is what all I can tell you. Beyond this no one will confirm you anything. I know bcz as I said I deal directly with the OEMs setting shop in India and that's why I could give some solid information
> 
> The MII is coming and so are the numbers. This deal will become the benchmark and in future even FGFA will need structuring at par or better than this MII deal. Heck all IA or IN deals will require similar benchmarking. So expect a strong opposition lobby to paint the town with news reports all over.
> 
> One more news between ydy and today, Dassault has conveyed to their 600 odd suppliers to come out for time sheet for opening their business in India. The target for first Rafale in MII rollout is year end 2019 or max 2020. Any delay will cause issues for financial part as Indian government has given a timeline already.
> 
> Enjoy and regards
> 
> @Abingdonboy


There is nothing wrong in building castles in the air



cerberus said:


> Who Told You That Rafale is Final Tally Will Go To 36 the Clause is For +18 More
> Also Navy Has Shown Its Own Interest is RAFALE M for It Aircraft Carrier Requirements
> 
> the Firts Squaron LCA will be get operational by 2018-19 As For MK2 its Gone Beyond 2024-25 thats A Bare Truth


You are not understanding what I am trying to state you need number take on the might of PLAAF. Investing in white elephant in piecemeal manner will only divert much needed resource from other programme which can provide numerical parity against PLAAF threat and also build large indigenous industrial base.


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## Tshering22

cerberus said:


> Do you Even Read what is Written they ASK for Evaluation only . Secondly Do you think Any Country Will Buy It Without FOC.So First Priority it should Get FOC from IAF.
> 
> 
> Its 9 billion which 60,000 $ with 50 % offset



Things are moving smoothly and FOC will happen this year. If negotiations start now, it is likely that the deal may commence soon.

Don't jump to present situation without factoring in the future possibilities please. The way our government is working at an accelerated pace, it is not impossible to consider that someone may show keenness to place orders.


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## cerberus

Lonely Hermit said:


> You are not understanding what I am trying to state you need number take on the might of PLAAF. Investing in white elephant in piecemeal manner will only divert much needed resource from other programme which can provide numerical parity against PLAAF threat and also build large indigenous industrial base.


PLAAF Was all CCP Propaganda what You calling white elephant is one of most Sophisticated Fighter in World 
Quality Always beats quantity USAF Proved it Again and Again in war.Pakistani Craves For F-16 more than JF-17 If its available to the.

Make technical comparison with any fighter Available in South Asia With Rafale


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## Lonely Hermit

cerberus said:


> PLAAF Was all CCP Propaganda what You calling white elephant is one of most Sophisticated Fighter in World
> Quality Always beats quantity USAF Proved it Again and Again in war.Pakistani Craves For F-16 more than JF-17 If its available to the.
> 
> Make technical comparison with any fighter Available in South Asia With Rafale


Yes that's the same opinion Germans had prior to operation Barbarossa (I assume looking at your flag you being one). We all know how that turned out.


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## cerberus

Tshering22 said:


> Things are moving smoothly and FOC will happen this year. If negotiations start now, it is likely that the deal may commence soon.
> 
> Don't jump to present situation without factoring in the future possibilities please. The way our government is working at an accelerated pace, it is not impossible to consider that someone may show keenness to place orders.


Eventually they will, I Hope For that 
But we should come to rationality First LCA still Far what we SEEK but We are adjusted if you Follow me on PDF you will Find Im One of admirer of LCA Project But its not take us Far from rationality 

HAL Babus ruined the World Class Project I Knew this Because M to Govt Employee I Knw How things Go through in South Block



Lonely Hermit said:


> Yes that's the same opinion Germans had prior to operation Barbarossa (I assume looking at your flag you being one). We all know how that turned out.


Its Not WW2 sir Its Modern-warfare You should see the SIX Day war were Israel Outmatched Arab Countries
USA ruling the status For Global Power Because of its Innovation Even though its Matched By China in Economic Front 
But it will still rule the world till End of this century 

Its why all Craves for western Tech Euro canards are the best fighters after F-22 raptors Its good Finally we are deluding from Russian Monopoly

As For Flag Only Represent GOI here


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## PARIKRAMA

Lonely Hermit said:


> There is nothing wrong in building castles in the air



Be my guest my friend. As much as you will dislike it, as i said before my job involves such project people across the globe. and a Side infor I do work for a French Major FI. So when it comes to infor i do get it from people in the chain..

One more thing, the upgrade proposed for MKI is going to cost around $30-35 Mn per jet. Loaded with a new armamnets derived form Pakfa/Su35 it gonna add more than 10-15 Mn per jet cost

So MKI in Super config will be around $60 Mn + $30-35+ $10-15 = $100-110 Mn.
and still our engine issues are not resolved under this upgrade.. The discussions centered around the new engine (of Su35S) but now talks are for a variant of present MKi engine only which is being quoted as 50% better life and less issues.

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## ashok321

http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/FactSheets/Display/tabid/224/Article/104506/f-22-raptor.aspx

Raptor F-22 cost 143 million. 
Rafale price too high. Every country wants to fleece gullible Indians.


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## SR-91

PARIKRAMA said:


> The deal was not signed bcz of not price issues. The price is being quoted at Rs 800 Crs (Hindu, businessline) and Rs 750 Crs (IBN Khabar). That inclusive of everything with weapons load.. India is negotiating to get it closer to 650-700 Crs.
> 
> The haggling is more from the perspective of spare which we are purchasing upfront for 10 years.
> 
> In another few months you will come to know about official announcement of MII under which total birds made in India will be close to 225+ equaling FrAF. On top price assumed is closer to in the bracket of Rs 500-600 Crs under MII with orders over time and localisation aspect.
> 
> Relax for some time.. you will see lots of such reports in next few weeks as everybody would like to create a pressure scenario for deal to falter but you can be assured that it wont at all..
> 
> If you do basic maths,
> 800 x 54 = Rs 43,200 crs
> The spares for 10 years estimated at around 40% of this cost + other items to be brought upfront for 90% availability clause = 320 x 54 = 17280 Crs
> 
> So 43200+17280 = 60480 Crs approx
> 
> As you can see thats the basic approximation..
> 
> If we dont factor in the spares angle then we have a deal at just 43200 Crs or $ 6.45 Bn all inclusive with weapons.
> 
> Now if we reduce the price per jet all loaded, the cost of spare package also comes down due to dependency. On top with MII the spares beyond 10 years will be locally purchased. But certain critical items will have to be procured for such high availability clause implementation.
> 
> Its not a rocket science really. We will sign it and release the amount mostly in march end or April beginning based on Financial availability.




Damn yaar,
I was really hoping for closure. But it also looks like negotiators are doing hell of a job.


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## MilSpec

Lonely Hermit said:


> Source for this 100 million $ claim, Manohar Parrikar has already stated recently it cost $56 million to manufacture su 30mki in India.
> _""“The Sukhoi 30 choice is always there. What I mean to say is: upgrade the Sukhoi 30, make it more capable,”_ said India’s Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar.
> 
> The Su-30MKI fighter was specially developed for India by Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and 200 aircraft has already entered IAF service as of August 2014.
> 
> The minister also made it clear that the IAF is concerned with the fighter costs. _“It is not always… go and purchase it. A cost effective purchase is also important,”_ he said.
> 
> The average cost of a Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter jet is approximately $56 million, whereas France’s Rafale fighter varies from €64 million to €90 million ($75-$106 million).""
> https://www.rt.com/news/222131-rafale-deal-under-question/
> @MilSpec sir your view on this is the Indian tax payer being taken for a ride by this deal ?



I like the Rafales, It's a great platform, but yes the french are completely taking India for a ride with this. 

This Product life cycle cost estimates submitted by mfg and evaluated by IAF has no relevance at all. A product's life cycle cost in france is very different from it's life cycle cost in India. and IAF by no means has the expertise or the experience to evaluate life cycle costs. 

I have long said, that we should have gotten out of the MMRCA and just focused on additional MKI's and maybe bought two to three squadrons of Mig35 or even the Mig29K which really are the true successors to the Mig29M. 
But this issue i think was complicated by lack of confidence on the PMF FGFA. 

The costs presented almost makes me think, f18SH could have been a good choice for the MMRCA..

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## [Bregs]

MilSpec said:


> I like the Rafales, It's a great platform, but yes the french are completely taking India for a ride with this.
> 
> This Product life cycle cost estimates submitted by mfg and evaluated by IAF has no relevance at all. A product's life cycle cost in france is very different from it's life cycle cost in India. and IAF by no means has the expertise or the experience to evaluate life cycle costs.
> 
> I have long said, that we should have gotten out of the MMRCA and just focused on additional MKI's and maybe bought two to three squadrons of Mig35 or even the Mig29K which really are the true successors to the Mig29M.
> But this issue i think was complicated by lack of confidence on the PMF FGFA.
> 
> The costs presented almost makes me think, f18SH could have been a good choice for the MMRCA..



Agree 100% with you, Rafale is no doubt a class apart in dual role of air dominance and A-G capabilities but the cost which is expected to be 9b $ is not at all justified. India has not fought a single major war with western avionics as is being made out now, we are getting fleeced bu junking Russian war systems in totality and pointing out limitations in all there weapons when we have fought 3 major with there weaponry


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## cerberus

ashok321 said:


> http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/FactSheets/Display/tabid/224/Article/104506/f-22-raptor.aspx
> 
> Raptor F-22 cost 143 million.
> Rafale price too high. Every country wants to fleece gullible Indians.


F-22 Operation Cost is close to 678 $ Million according to its Own Senate Report


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## Tameem

@PARIKRAMA
Since last couple of weeks and before starts of this Holland visits you are propagating on this very forum that the eventual deal will be little more than $100 million dollar per Aircraft ($110 Million at best) including all costs and that too from your super duper accurate sources......what would you say now on your sources? hannahh?
or we will guess out by ourselves about you and your sources Rightly!!


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## Spectre

MilSpec said:


> I like the Rafales, It's a great platform, but yes the french are completely taking India for a ride with this.
> 
> This Product life cycle cost estimates submitted by mfg and evaluated by IAF has no relevance at all. A product's life cycle cost in france is very different from it's life cycle cost in India. and IAF by no means has the expertise or the experience to evaluate life cycle costs.
> 
> I have long said, that we should have gotten out of the MMRCA and just focused on additional MKI's and maybe bought two to three squadrons of Mig35 or even the Mig29K which really are the true successors to the Mig29M.
> But this issue i think was complicated by lack of confidence on the PMF FGFA.
> 
> The costs presented almost makes me think, f18SH could have been a good choice for the MMRCA..



Cost is not the only factor. Following needs to be considered as well

1. Most accomplished of 4.5 Gen fighters and cheaper than EFT
2. IAF's preference considering positive experiences with Mirages
3. Coupling with other off the books stuff.
4. French goods are usually sanction proof
5. Off-sets and commonality with Rafales. 
6. Damage to Indo-French ties if we back out. 
7. Shornets will have strings attached. Russians are unreliable. EFT was too expensive. Gripen and F-16 didn't meet the criteria. 

It would be fool-hardy to think that the arguments presented by you haven't already been had among the DM and IAF. The fact that both the UPA and NDA are going ahead with Rafales gives us a clue regarding the strategic and tactical benefits this deal bring us. 

Regards

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## Malik Alashter

egodoc222 said:


> Waste?
> How exactly?
> Are you doubting rafale capabilities?


It's not about doubting or any.

See , India is a nuke state means no war on the door also with just the mki India's air force is one of the strongest in the east of asia.

with these money you can develop a match fighter to the rafale just like the Chinese they keep improving locally their flanker.

Plus with some of these money you can help improve your infrastructures to a better level.


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## MilSpec

Spectre said:


> Cost is not the only factor. Following needs to be considered as well
> 
> 1. Most accomplished of 4.5 Gen fighters and cheaper than EFT
> 2. IAF's preference considering positive experiences with Mirages
> 3. Coupling with other off the books stuff.
> 4. French goods are usually sanction proof
> 5. Off-sets and commonality with Rafales.
> 6. Damage to Indo-French ties if we back out.
> 7. Shornets will have strings attached. Russians are unreliable. EFT was too expensive. Gripen and F-16 didn't meet the criteria.
> 
> It would be fool-hardy to think that the arguments presented by you haven't already been had among the DM and IAF. The fact that both the UPA and NDA are going ahead with Rafales gives us a clue regarding the strategic and tactical benefits this deal bring us.
> 
> Regards


There cannot be any substantial objective debate on MMMRCA- Rafale period. The simple fact remains that there isn't enough information available on the subject.

*Objective*
The objective of mmmrca project (not the original mrca - mig29mki vs mirage 2000-5) was a three pronged strategy.
1> To get a platform that satisfies minimum operational requirements of forces (multi role, aerodynamic performance, detection range, BVR probability, radar resolution and noise, SPS, Sortie rate Engine turnaround time).
2> To obtain comprehensive technology transfer with material to product capability within the Indian manufacturing sense.
3> To select a platform which has the optimal lifecycle cost to performance (both flying and service)


*Let me disagree with supposed experts fielded in the Indian defense circles by saying all three objectives are ambiguous, amateurish and unrealistic*.* The reason being objectives need to be "S.M.A.R.T" - Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, and with a given Time . *

Lets look at inherent issues with these objectives:

*Minimum operational conformance: *
All 6 aircraft went through field trials, from minimum requirements and availability Mig35 was a given deletion as the aircraft did not exist, and gripen deemed not mature enough. There is no transparency why these decisions were taken, Mig 35 was exactly as real as the Su30MKI was when decided to procure, high altitude trials was also an issue for the mig 35 which was a real ding, but still wont be a deal breaker as I am privy to information that it was an easy fix but not allowed by the evaluation committee. It was a russian mistake and a comedy of errors for which russian ground staff was to be blamed, same happened for hot weather trials for the F/A18 SH. From the complete package perspective except the Mig35 Zhuk AESA, F/A 18Sh and F16 IN none of the aircraft's fielded had an operational aesa radar so could be argued as grounds for disqualification, but were given a lifeline. But no such considerations were done for the Mig35 or the F/A 18 SH engine issue. (even though both the test aircraft's had different engines than were offered on the package). why?

*Comprehensive technology transfer:*
It is laughable that evaluation of technology transfer was done by the Indian Air Force and Ministry of defense, Which has zero knowledge of the matter. The most experienced entity in the country for technology transfer, HAL was never consulted for scope of technology transfer. Even Tata or Mahindra has comprehensive knowledge of technology transfer paradigms like Vave, PED, PG1-3, etc, when has Airforce done any tech transfer to evaluate the efficacy of the bids and their ToT offer. In a bid I can claim to share Design data, and with-hold any of the following like material properties, or standard part designation or DFMEA data, of level of detail, or drawing standard mismatchs, or comprehensive Jigs and Fixture setup process as undefined in the bid and the evaluation team wouldn't know.

The air chiefs of stratpost were having a field day taking digs at HAL, completely disregarding the fact that Material to product transformation transfer has *never* occurred except probably in the case of Mig21 in the history of modern aviation. Looking at what fokker or samsung or mitsubishi has done with F16 Subsystems, it is astounding what HAL has achieved in the same paradigm. But which Air chief marshal or Blogger would know that, when they can barely differentiate between a mill and a lathe.

*Life Cycle Costs: *

No verifiable data exists for lifecycle cost any of the aircrafts for the MMRCA. the simple fact remains is that US lifecycle costs of F16 CANNOT be applied to India. A Mil std rivet cutter costs $52 in US, the same costs $162 in India. Same applies to theAircraft grade Aluminium stampings, Steel billets, Titanium alloy, hardened bearing, so on and so forth. Also there is no transparency in the lifecycle costs submitted to the Airforce, especially for an aircraft like Mig35 which never existed in the first place. How did Airforce evaluate EFT and Rafale's cost when their respective radar and some of the key munitions did not exist in production? This raises a very big question in authenticity of the evaluation of Life cycle cost. Apart from that when did Air force become credible in evaluation life-cycle costs of capital equipment? I am extremely fascinated with the comparison with Mig29 debate when it comes to life cycle cost, especially when Indian airforce has done nothing to reduce it. Mig29's are a direct purchase from Russia, and maintenance was done by Base repair depot. The actual reason of serviceability of mig 29 is not the aircraft itself but gross incompetence of BRD's to maintain required spares and extremely poor skill level of BRD technicians. As a matter of fact if HAL nasik division stops supporting 11 BRD, it will close doors the next day, this is the real reason why Mig29 faced serviceability issues and in all reality the post UPG program all maintenance and overhaul will transfer to HAL.


We like to keep taking potshots at the LCA program and now I have started hearing this new turkey gobble that Funds have never been the issue, which is complete horse $hit. Revenue budget for ADA and HAL has been extremely poor, i wouldn't go into role of HAL in LCA program, as I have roared on and on about it in the past. But IAF and especially by the Ministry of Dufus have deliberately stifled the revenue budget for LCA program which hasn't allowed HAL or the ADA to hire the required numbers of engineers and technicians for all the phases of the LCA program. You do not provide any resources to the Indian agencies, and post useless retired airforce and army personnel to positions in manufacturing who cant read a simple drawing and then expect them to manage and expedite a manufacturing project with more than a million part assembly. What else can be expected from the program then.


regards

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## cirr

Indians on their knees begging the French for a few pieces of expensive yet obsolete flying machines


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## ashok321

cerberus said:


> F-22 Operation Cost is close to 678 $ Million according to its Own Senate Report



Trust the source, or produce your own.


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## cerberus

ashok321 said:


> Trust the source, or produce your own.


http://www.wired.com/2011/12/f-22-real-cost/


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## ashok321

cerberus said:


> http://www.wired.com/2011/12/f-22-real-cost/



It says 137 million "flyaway cost"
Exactly the same way India wants its Rafales in "flyaway" conditions.

Why should India pay unit cost of Rafale which would be sold to other nations besides Franch Air force & Navy.
No production is involved here.


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## cerberus

ashok321 said:


> It says 137 million "flyaway cost"
> Exactly the same way India wants its Rafales in "flyaway" conditions.
> 
> Why should India pay unit cost of Rafale which would be sold to other nations besides Franch Air force & Navy.
> No production is involved here.


did you read the Full report F-35 
here is United States Government Accountability Office report Like CAG of india in 2010 
Congressional Committees
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10382.pdf

here is for f-22 
When Gates decided this spring to spend $785 million on four more planes and then end production of the F-22, he also kept alive an $8 billion improvement effort. It will, among other things, give F-22 pilots the ability to communicate with other types of warplanes; it currently is the only such warplane to lack that capability.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...03020_2.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2009071001019

As little as $137 million per jet and as much as $678 million, depending on how and what you count.
The thing is, the best way of calculating the F-22’s cost may be the most abstract. But any way you crunch the numbers, the world’s best dogfighter has also been one of the most expensive operational warplanes ever.

the Price you quoting is For Unit Production there amount available in its operational cost Over the years, the Raptor’s cost has been the subject of intense debate in the Pentagon, the White House, Congress and the media. But advocates and critics tend to quote different figures to serve their various agendas. Fans of the twin-engine fighter usually refer to the “flyaway cost” — that is, how much Lockheed charged the government to piece together each Raptor after all development has been paid for. In other words, just construction spending.

Haters cite “unit cost,” which includes development and production spending divided by the number of jets built. F-22 production and development, including currently approved upgrades, totals $74 billion, resulting in a unit cost of $377 million.
and that is only Unit Cost excluding other Packages


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## PARIKRAMA

Cross Posting from another forum keypub
@halloweene Fresh news from Dassault : issue is not about price, but financial building
As i said before contract will be signed and money released march end or april max

and here from another forum ID
Credit to CNL
"
4 weeks ago, discussions were on 36 Rafales F3-OT4 provided by France and more than XXX F3-R assembled in India.
Since then, things have changed about numbers and versions. 
Today numbers, versions and price are finalized. The question to discuss before the final contract is signed is financing."

+++++++++++++
Anybody can say i am a fool and my sources are foolish.. True i cannot be right every time. In last year i had said when i had the financial report for Make in India project in India for 189 Rafales out of which certain details i had said including the productivity range..
The same OEMs have indicated that a french Rafale like Rafale B: Euro 74 million and Rafale C Euro 68.8 Mn or Rafale M Euro 79Mn all flyaway costs (at 2013 senate committee report) includes the 20% VAT charged which is not applicable for Export Customers.

Implying without VAT the flyaway costs is 
Rafale B: Euro 61.67 Mn
Rafale C: Euro 57.33 Mn
Rafale M: Euro 65.83 Mn

Thats the actual price of the flyaway Rafale

In its own way even if India buys the Rafale at the same price as French AF, the price will be looked at devoid of VAT angle.

Thus the question to ask or wonder is what else is there in the deal. In broad contour terms other than the complete TCO package (Total Cost of Ownership) the simpler terms includes 
Firstly upgrades, infrastructure, logistical support or training
Secondly Weapons
Thirdly a financial guarantee of availability at 90% all the time and associated spares and services for 5/10/15 years
etc etc

Thus the question of these terms in terms of price will add on to the above price + the offsets. 


Rest i will wait now for some more information on public domain as i believe there seems to be a feeling that i am quoting here all garbage especially from sources and OEMs.

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## cerberus

*French President Francois Hollande added that “ome financial issues remain that will be sorted out in the next coming days.” As I reported previously:

The current contract under negotiation includes an offset clause which stipulated that France will have to invest 50 percent of the contract value as offsets in India. The costs for the 36 Rafale fighters – excluding the maintenance contract and the weapons suite – are estimated at around $4.5 billion.
*
http://thediplomat.com/2016/01/french-aircraft-maker-expects-9-billion-rafale-deal-to-be-signed-within-a-month/

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## Abingdonboy

Anyone thinking that thw two leaders of two democracies sign a IGA without a firm commitment of all outstanding issues being rectified iminently is just being intentionally stupid. 

Does anyone actually think there is a way back now? Can you imagine the amount of poltical capital both leaders have placed in this deal and the blowback they would get if the deal suddenyl collapsed. Hollande is already facing serious heat at home for a lack of economic vision and the stagnation of the French economy. I'm sorry, watched the joint press conference and the amount of references made to the Rafale make it clear how critical this deal is to both sides and it is NEVER going to be for just 36 jets- this would be insane.

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## dadeechi

PARIKRAMA said:


> Cross Posting from another forum keypub
> @halloweene Fresh news from Dassault : issue is not about price, but financial building
> As i said before contract will be signed and money released march end or april max
> 
> and here from another forum ID
> Credit to CNL
> "
> 4 weeks ago, discussions were on 36 Rafales F3-OT4 provided by France and more than XXX F3-R assembled in India.
> Since then, things have changed about numbers and versions.
> Today numbers, versions and price are finalized. The question to discuss before the final contract is signed is financing."
> 
> +++++++++++++
> Anybody can say i am a fool and my sources are foolish.. True i cannot be right every time. In last year i had said when i had the financial report for Make in India project in India for 189 Rafales out of which certain details i had said including the productivity range..
> The same OEMs have indicated that a french Rafale like Rafale B: Euro 74 million and Rafale C Euro 68.8 Mn or Rafale M Euro 79Mn all flyaway costs (at 2013 senate committee report) includes the 20% VAT charged which is not applicable for Export Customers.
> 
> Implying without VAT the flyaway costs is
> Rafale B: Euro 61.67 Mn
> Rafale C: Euro 57.33 Mn
> Rafale M: Euro 65.83 Mn
> 
> Thats the actual price of the flyaway Rafale
> 
> In its own way even if India buys the Rafale at the same price as French AF, the price will be looked at devoid of VAT angle.
> 
> Thus the question to ask or wonder is what else is there in the deal. In broad contour terms other than the complete TCO package (Total Cost of Ownership) the simpler terms includes
> Firstly upgrades, infrastructure, logistical support or training
> Secondly Weapons
> Thirdly a financial guarantee of availability at 90% all the time and associated spares and services for 5/10/15 years
> etc etc
> 
> Thus the question of these terms in terms of price will add on to the above price + the offsets.
> 
> 
> Rest i will wait now for some more information on public domain as i believe there seems to be a feeling that i am quoting here all garbage especially from sources and OEMs.





More than the Financing aspect, the deal is being delayed for the completion of the DPP-2016.

The final contract signature would happen after DPP-2016 is released to avoid legal issues.

With regards to the concern on the down payment & CAPEX, the terms generally should allow at least 90 days which would take it to the next fiscal year.



===================================================================================


*Qatar makes delayed down payment on French fighter jets*
December 19, 2015 by Victoria Scott






*Qatar has made the first down payment on its order of 24 Rafale fighter jets, eight months after it *agreed to the purchase with French manufacturer Dassault*.*

The move puts an end to speculation that Qatar might be having second thoughts about the deal, which is thought to be worth around €6.3 billion (QR25.7 billion).

French newspapers had speculated that a huge fall in global energy prices was behind the delay, with French financial newspaper Les Echos suggesting that Qatar’s government required a loan via US banks to help finance the deal.

*Tightening belts*
The news of the down payment came just before Qatar’s Emir approved a government budget for 2016 that significantly cuts expenditures.


The document shows that the country plans to spend 7.28 percent, or QR15.9 billion, less next year.

A growing hole in the country’s finances due to falling oil and gas prices has made the government make some tough choices.


The total deficit in next year’s budget is estimated at QR46.5 billion.

Instead of cutting expenditure further, however, Qatar’s Finance Minister Ali Shareef Al Emadi said that Qatar had decided to borrow money to make up the shortfall, rather than tapping into its vast savings.

*Rafale deal*
*Qatar’s deal with Dassault was signed in April this year*, ending a bidding war between the French manufacturer and rival aerospace firms in the US and UK.

The down payment means Dassault can now begin to build the 24 jets, the first of which are due for delivery in 2018.

The deal also includes the training of 36 pilots and 100 aircraft mechanics.

Qatar’s commitment to upgrading its air force with new fighters is part of a massive military buildup that has seen the government order some QR87 billion worth of new equipment in the last couple of years.

In a recent report, Jane’s Defence concluded that this trend was likely to continue “in the short term,” but that is was unclear whether Qatar’s focus would “shift elsewhere” in the longer term due to financial pressures.

Thoughts?


http://dohanews.co/qatar-makes-delayed-payment-french-fighter-jets/


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## Genesis

At this point India should just man up and pay for it. What's another year's cost to India. Buy it and move on, in the grand scheme of things, it hardly matters. 

At least India's problems can be solved by money, China in the 90s can't even get deals done even with money. Don't even remember how many deals the West backed out of, even when we agreed to their escalating demands. 

In another decade, who's going to remember this four billion, who's going to remember tomorrow...

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## dadeechi

SUPARCO said:


> Once upon a time India was supposed to receive 126 Rafales for $20 billion, now (if India is lucky) it'll be forking out $11 billion for only 36.
> .



Originally it was 126 RAFALEs for $10 Billion and the first RAFALE was supposed to have landed in India in 2015.


*Rafale Wins the MMRCA Competition*
​



Ramesh Phadke
February 06, 2012
The French Dassault Rafale has reportedly won the coveted contract for 126 MMRCA on the basis of its price being lower than the Eurofighter Typhoon. It is still early days, however, as months of detailed negotiations would inevitably follow before such a complex and high priced contract is finally signed.

The IAF had always rooted for the Rafale and hence it should be happy and satisfied over a job well done considering the complexity and the time delays involved when a large number of decision makers are in the loop. One of the reasons the IAF favoured this fighter, besides intrinsic merit, is its experience with the Mirage-2000 fighters acquired in 1984-85. The Mirage was used first in the opening phase in Sri Lanka. Later the Mirage also proved its superior technology during the 1999 Kargil conflict when the small enemy targets at high altitude could not be successfully engaged with other strike fighters. The Mirage-2000 fleet has maintained a very high serviceability and utilisation rate and above all an unbelievably envious flight safety record. It is hoped that the Rafale would prove equally effective and economical in the long run. The main reason for the high serviceability of the Mirage-2000 fleet, I am told, is the near instant availability of spares and technical support from the French Dassault and the Thales team, and a state of the art avionics laboratory in Gwalior that is more sterile than the best hospital’s Intensive Care Unit (ICU). Considering that the quality of technical manpower is about the same across the IAF, it must be the Western technology, training and SOPs formulated by the French and the constantly close interaction between the user and the provider that are responsible for the success of the Mirage-2000 fleet. It is perhaps for this reason that India has chosen to upgrade the Mirage-2000 fleet for a whopping USD 1.8 billion. The IAF will surely do the same with the Rafale to obtain timely spares and maintenance support.

This is the first export contract that Dassault has won and the possibility of the IAF ordering more Rafale fighters in due course puts a very heavy responsibility on the French as future global contracts will probably be influenced by the Indian experience. Dassault will be expected to transfer all the requisite ‘knowledge’ for safe and efficient operations of this fourth generation fighter. High sortie rates and easy maintainability would be the key to the success of the Rafale project. Although a shade less expensive than the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Rafale is among the most expensive fighters in the world. India would thus look for real value for money in Transfer of Technology (ToT) and life cycle costs.

Another key area of cooperation would be the assistance France provides for India’s long running Kaveri engine programme. All defence contracts of this scale are said to include up to 50 per cent offset obligation. Given the current state of Indian defence industry and the associated regulations, both India and France would have to find new and innovative ways to translate that into reality. The Rafale carries a wide array of highly sophisticated weapons and missiles without which it is but an advanced platform. India would be well advised to explore the manufacture of as many of these weapons and missiles as possible. Avionics including the AESA radar (itself under development) is another area for close cooperation and ToT, if this relationship is to become truly rewarding for both sides. HAL, the Indian company that will eventually manufacture the remaining 108 fighters in India, and other associated SMEs would also require very close support and understanding to put India firmly on the hi-tech trajectory. France can play a vital role in easing the learning curve. In fact, the MoD, especially its Department of Defence Production, must facilitate India’s defence industry to team up with France to design and develop other systems such as UAV and UCAV, multipurpose missiles especially MANPADs, PGMs and a host of other weapons for Indian consumption and even exports.

The first batch of 18 Rafale fighters in flyaway condition is likely to reach the Indian skies only in 2015 which gives the IAF adequate time to carefully prepare the support infrastructure for the Rafale. At least initially, the IAF will most probably house the first squadron at Gwalior, the Mirage-2000 base. Given Indian flying conditions, the IAF will also have to ensure a relatively bird-free flying environment.

*It must be noted that though the Rafale may cost less than the Eurofighter, it is still awfully expensive. Unit costs of upwards of USD 100-125 million or Rs. 500-625 crore have been mentioned.* The aircraft’s upkeep and maintenance would thus demand a very high level of training and skills both by the pilots and technical personnel. We simply cannot afford stupid mistakes. This would require a fundamental change in our outlook to peacetime operations where availability of support services such as weather forecasting, air traffic control, ground infrastructure such as clean and clear runways and navigation and radar facilities would have to be ensured on a 24/7 basis. Murphy’s Law operates even in today’s hi-tech environment, perhaps even more so. Peacetime flying operations are as demanding as those in war. The IAF will have to quickly train its pilots and support personnel to make the Rafale fully operational in good time.


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## Dungeness

dadeechi said:


> Originally it was 126 RAFALEs for $10 Billion and the first RAFALE was supposed to have landed in India in 2015.
> 
> 
> *Rafale Wins the MMRCA Competition*
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> Ramesh Phadke
> February 06, 2012
> The French Dassault Rafale has reportedly won the coveted contract for 126 MMRCA on the basis of its price being lower than the Eurofighter Typhoon. It is still early days, however, as months of detailed negotiations would inevitably follow before such a complex and high priced contract is finally signed.
> 
> The IAF had always rooted for the Rafale and hence it should be happy and satisfied over a job well done considering the complexity and the time delays involved when a large number of decision makers are in the loop. One of the reasons the IAF favoured this fighter, besides intrinsic merit, is its experience with the Mirage-2000 fighters acquired in 1984-85. The Mirage was used first in the opening phase in Sri Lanka. Later the Mirage also proved its superior technology during the 1999 Kargil conflict when the small enemy targets at high altitude could not be successfully engaged with other strike fighters. The Mirage-2000 fleet has maintained a very high serviceability and utilisation rate and above all an unbelievably envious flight safety record. It is hoped that the Rafale would prove equally effective and economical in the long run. The main reason for the high serviceability of the Mirage-2000 fleet, I am told, is the near instant availability of spares and technical support from the French Dassault and the Thales team, and a state of the art avionics laboratory in Gwalior that is more sterile than the best hospital’s Intensive Care Unit (ICU). Considering that the quality of technical manpower is about the same across the IAF, it must be the Western technology, training and SOPs formulated by the French and the constantly close interaction between the user and the provider that are responsible for the success of the Mirage-2000 fleet. It is perhaps for this reason that India has chosen to upgrade the Mirage-2000 fleet for a whopping USD 1.8 billion. The IAF will surely do the same with the Rafale to obtain timely spares and maintenance support.
> 
> This is the first export contract that Dassault has won and the possibility of the IAF ordering more Rafale fighters in due course puts a very heavy responsibility on the French as future global contracts will probably be influenced by the Indian experience. Dassault will be expected to transfer all the requisite ‘knowledge’ for safe and efficient operations of this fourth generation fighter. High sortie rates and easy maintainability would be the key to the success of the Rafale project. Although a shade less expensive than the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Rafale is among the most expensive fighters in the world. India would thus look for real value for money in Transfer of Technology (ToT) and life cycle costs.
> 
> Another key area of cooperation would be the assistance France provides for India’s long running Kaveri engine programme. All defence contracts of this scale are said to include up to 50 per cent offset obligation. Given the current state of Indian defence industry and the associated regulations, both India and France would have to find new and innovative ways to translate that into reality. The Rafale carries a wide array of highly sophisticated weapons and missiles without which it is but an advanced platform. India would be well advised to explore the manufacture of as many of these weapons and missiles as possible. Avionics including the AESA radar (itself under development) is another area for close cooperation and ToT, if this relationship is to become truly rewarding for both sides. HAL, the Indian company that will eventually manufacture the remaining 108 fighters in India, and other associated SMEs would also require very close support and understanding to put India firmly on the hi-tech trajectory. France can play a vital role in easing the learning curve. In fact, the MoD, especially its Department of Defence Production, must facilitate India’s defence industry to team up with France to design and develop other systems such as UAV and UCAV, multipurpose missiles especially MANPADs, PGMs and a host of other weapons for Indian consumption and even exports.
> 
> The first batch of 18 Rafale fighters in flyaway condition is likely to reach the Indian skies only in 2015 which gives the IAF adequate time to carefully prepare the support infrastructure for the Rafale. At least initially, the IAF will most probably house the first squadron at Gwalior, the Mirage-2000 base. Given Indian flying conditions, the IAF will also have to ensure a relatively bird-free flying environment.
> 
> *It must be noted that though the Rafale may cost less than the Eurofighter, it is still awfully expensive. Unit costs of upwards of USD 100-125 million or Rs. 500-625 crore have been mentioned.* The aircraft’s upkeep and maintenance would thus demand a very high level of training and skills both by the pilots and technical personnel. We simply cannot afford stupid mistakes. This would require a fundamental change in our outlook to peacetime operations where availability of support services such as weather forecasting, air traffic control, ground infrastructure such as clean and clear runways and navigation and radar facilities would have to be ensured on a 24/7 basis. Murphy’s Law operates even in today’s hi-tech environment, perhaps even more so. Peacetime flying operations are as demanding as those in war. The IAF will have to quickly train its pilots and support personnel to make the Rafale fully operational in good time.



Exactly 4 years past, there is nothing concrete on the ground, and now you have to spend even more for less than 1/3 planes. Something is very wrong with this whole fiasco.


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## Dungeness

Genesis said:


> At this point India should just man up and pay for it. What's another year's cost to India. Buy it and move on, in the grand scheme of things, it hardly matters.
> 
> At least India's problems can be solved by money, China in the 90s can't even get deals done even with money. Don't even remember how many deals the West backed out of, even when we agreed to their escalating demands.
> 
> In another decade, who's going to remember this four billion, who's going to remember tomorrow...





My suggestion would be just opposite. 

India should just forget about whole Rafale thing, and focus its own MMRCA project with that 11 billions. Swallow your pride, and do everything you can to get all necessary technologies, be it "copy and paste" or "hook or crook" or "hack or steal". Put the experience you gained with LCA project to good use. Those ToT you paid a great deal for doesn't do you any good if you don't bite the bullet and go through the entire process of designing and building your own planes. After all, nobody is really willing to share the core defense technologies with you anyway, and it doesn't matter how much you pay.

It will take sometime with this route, but you have spent more than a decade on this MMRCA procurement already anyway. It is not like anybody will attack India anytime soon, and even if it comes the worst, your PM can always write a letter to the President of the United States of American, and he may be more willing to help this time.

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## PARIKRAMA

dadeechi said:


> More than the Financing aspect, the deal is being delayed for the completion of the DPP-2016.
> 
> The final contract signature would happen after DPP-2016 is released to avoid legal issues.
> 
> With regards to the concern on the down payment & CAPEX, the terms generally should allow at least 90 days which would take it to the next fiscal year.
> 
> 
> 
> ===================================================================================
> 
> 
> *Qatar makes delayed down payment on French fighter jets*
> December 19, 2015 by Victoria Scott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Qatar has made the first down payment on its order of 24 Rafale fighter jets, eight months after it *agreed to the purchase with French manufacturer Dassault*.*
> 
> The move puts an end to speculation that Qatar might be having second thoughts about the deal, which is thought to be worth around €6.3 billion (QR25.7 billion).
> 
> French newspapers had speculated that a huge fall in global energy prices was behind the delay, with French financial newspaper Les Echos suggesting that Qatar’s government required a loan via US banks to help finance the deal.
> 
> *Tightening belts*
> The news of the down payment came just before Qatar’s Emir approved a government budget for 2016 that significantly cuts expenditures.
> 
> 
> The document shows that the country plans to spend 7.28 percent, or QR15.9 billion, less next year.
> 
> A growing hole in the country’s finances due to falling oil and gas prices has made the government make some tough choices.
> 
> 
> The total deficit in next year’s budget is estimated at QR46.5 billion.
> 
> Instead of cutting expenditure further, however, Qatar’s Finance Minister Ali Shareef Al Emadi said that Qatar had decided to borrow money to make up the shortfall, rather than tapping into its vast savings.
> 
> *Rafale deal*
> *Qatar’s deal with Dassault was signed in April this year*, ending a bidding war between the French manufacturer and rival aerospace firms in the US and UK.
> 
> The down payment means Dassault can now begin to build the 24 jets, the first of which are due for delivery in 2018.
> 
> The deal also includes the training of 36 pilots and 100 aircraft mechanics.
> 
> Qatar’s commitment to upgrading its air force with new fighters is part of a massive military buildup that has seen the government order some QR87 billion worth of new equipment in the last couple of years.
> 
> In a recent report, Jane’s Defence concluded that this trend was likely to continue “in the short term,” but that is was unclear whether Qatar’s focus would “shift elsewhere” in the longer term due to financial pressures.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> http://dohanews.co/qatar-makes-delayed-payment-french-fighter-jets/



We are planning to pay more than 15% signing amount , infact closer to 50% of the deal amount but in return we want the delivery as per our schedule and the offset implementation for the MII part. Thats why financing terms are the issues. As such we are bargaining that since its no more TIme Value of Money equation, the present value of the whole purchase dictates a much needed discount due to a massive down payment...

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## Abba_Dabba_Jabba

kaykay said:


> Once upon a time PAF was to get 36 J-10s too. I wonder what happened to that. lol


Humari $ 11 billion me fati hai aur unki, $ 4 billion me.. 

Everybody has their saturation point..

Ontopic(slightly offtopic though) : If F-22 has $ 700+ million cost with maintenance and weapon, then why the hell Russian and Chinese want to match F-22 ? Or they'll realize after they build 150+ fighters, just the way USAF realized ?

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## Nilgiri

@sarjenprabhu @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy 

From the initial quoted full combined cycle cost of 250 million per plane by french....how much is just the non-offset component of aircraft (airframe +hardware + weapons). I.e take away all the opex costs. 

Do you guys know? (Sorry if you have already said somewhere....TL;DR etc..)

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## SQ8

chhota bheem said:


> Then the Pakistani pilots flew them....and left with full of praise for the bird and they never cameback


They also realized that a certain President they had was eating into the economy so bad that new equipments aside, it was getting difficult to even keep the current fleet flyable with the paucity of funds. 
If there was any time to hit Pakistan, it was 2011.. the country would have been a walkover. 

Thankfully, the only people who could were the Americans and they were still too paranoid about us thinking its you guys and doing something stupid. 

When it comes to India and Pakistan , they hold this true for each other.
"Somnath ka mandir jiss ne bhi tora, paise aap ki jaib se kate gain".

As for the Rafale deal, all the financial number crunching posted away here seems amusing when they are excluding the greatest cost of all to the IAF : TIME!

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## $@rJen

Nilgiri said:


> From the initial quoted full combined cycle cost of 250 million per plane by french....how much is just the non-offset component of aircraft (airframe +hardware + weapons). I.e take away all the opex costs.
> 
> Do you guys know? (Sorry if you have already said somewhere....TL;DR etc..)



i guess it would be the same of what Egypt and Qatar paid around 7 billions for 24 jets with weapons and life cycle cost, training and etc


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## Cyberian

kaykay said:


> Once upon a time PAF was to get 36 J-10s too. I wonder what happened to that. lol



Floods and Global Financial Crises happened. Hence Pakistan today produces a new JF-17 Thunder every fortnight.


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## kaykay

SUPARCO said:


> Floods and Global Financial Crises happened. Hence Pakistan today produces a new JF-17 Thunder every fortnight.


Well you are producing JF-17s while we are producing Su-30MKIs at same rate. Its not that we are sitting idle.

PS: Tejas is also joining our production lines along with MKIs. So we can wait for Rafale.


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## PARIKRAMA

Nilgiri said:


> @sarjenprabhu @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy
> 
> From the initial quoted full combined cycle cost of 250 million per plane by french....how much is just the non-offset component of aircraft (airframe +hardware + weapons). I.e take away all the opex costs.
> 
> Do you guys know? (Sorry if you have already said somewhere....TL;DR etc..)



Well i go by another analysis that has been with me for some time. Its for a commercial jet but a rough analogy may be used for computation.

LCC is in simple words Design manufacture operation disposal cost over lifetime





_Source: 16,885 Aircraft systems Engineering Cost analysis by Karen Wilcox , MIT, ACDL_

Now i can give the Design to manufacturing costs based on open sources and very very rough estimations.

See *part 1*






Basically it implies based on the program cost and present confirmed orders (including 36 Indian Rafales), the amortised per unit cost comes out to be *Euro 133.61 Mn*

*Part 2* based on number of orders, this amortised per unit cost comes down as below





As seen the amortised cost if Rafale reaches a similar number as Mirages of say 600 nos, will be *Euro 98.69 Mn* per Jet

*Part 3*, 
From the same Karen Wilcox research, 










*FOr the time being let us assume the life cycle cost based on the above model only negating its for commercial jets bcz Crew cost 40% can be replaced by 10% additional cost in fuel and 30% cost of weapons. This means fuel cost is now 30%*

and using the publicly available one figure




_Source http://www.stratpost.com/gripen-operational-cost-lowest-of-all-western-fighters-janes_

So if we go from bottom to top, Rafale Operational Cost is estimated at $16,500 per hour

Rafale Loiter time is around 3 hours

So based on the above data










*Part 4* is total LIfe Cycle costs of all steps together and thus it is Euro 133.61 Mn + Euro 43.40 Mn = *Euro 177 Mn or $ 191.16 Mn*

If you consider from Flyaway price then life cycle cost is 3 X multiple of flyaway cost.

Considering a scenario under MII with 100 more orders and export follow and new orders, the potential Amortised price of 450 jets is Euro 111 Mn implying LCC cost of Euro 154 Mn 
If its for India 200 Jets, and another exports and France orders adding a total of 300 over present 309 orders meaning a total of 600 jets then amortised cost comes out to Euro 98.7 Mn and LCC cost would be Euro 142 Mn

This shows why the line in India is strategic in nature as the MII order allows around of 10-20% savings in cost

Judging by the capital cost component per base setup per squadron should be around Euro 522 Mn so for our 2 base of operations it should be around Euro 1 Bn.

Thats the best i understand. IF anyone has a different understanding pls feel free to explain so that i can also understand from that.

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## PARIKRAMA

++
Source based information - (take it with pinch of salt, dont blame me)
++

IGA is 150 odd pages
India wanted guarantees from French Government
The main guarantee was the term that India (IAF+IN) needs a much higher number jets than 36+18 now being discussed
French government will monitor the whole deal execution for present as well as future deals
The main agenda includes France government and its mechanism monitoring the entire deal, delivery schedule and legal issues arising out of ay performance based financial penalty.
The IGA describes the entire details of the jet, standard, armaments and customization
Customization includes Astra BVR integration + another few specific customization which needs development and financing by India.
This new customization will in fact push the Rafales being inducted into India and now the first Rafale will join in 3 years and last on in 5.5 years.
Manufacturers of the entire supply chain of Dassault are suppose to submit their counter parties tie up or opening of new facilities in India to Dassault and in turn Dassault would submit the same to French Government
Dassault also wants a possibility of moving Falcon jets line to India besides the Rafale Jet
The deal sets up the whole basic infrastructure required for next set of Rafales without new investments in basic infrastructures.
The 2 bases will act as the MRO centers besides the main manufacturing plant.
The spares/service being procured is for 10 years and India is negotiating for 15 years at the same price.
Bullet payment upto 50% against signing amount of 15% is being offered for quicker implementation, more discounts and offset implementation on time.
The basic cost of 36 jets and weapons with offsets are in line with a price tag of approximate Rs 800 Crs. Negotiations going on to decrease it
The fighters are for 40 years and service has been requested to ensure these jets can serve 50 years.
The customization cost is coming out high as Indian Rafales will be in between F3 OT4 but less than F3R. Such customization are at present Not requested by any AF including FrAF (beyond IRST)
The customization cost itself is estimated at close to Euro 2 Bn plus which includes systems/sub systems from Israel and is a one time cost for all future purchases at one go. 
Integration of one more sub system to fire US Harpoon AShM (to be taken over for Anti Shipping roles)
The infrastructure, support, services, spares and other categories under total cost of ownership are estimated at around Euro 5 Bn
Jets + weapons are estimated at Euro 4 bn
The deal all inclusive is estimated at Euro 11 Bn
The final negotiations are going on to see how a Euro 0.5 bn-1 Bn cost can be reduced and some terms can be altered for more favoring to Indian requests. The deal may get lower cost in case of some terms being left or deleted by Indian side but that seems very difficult.
+++
@Abingdonboy @anant_s @cerberus @Vauban @MilSpec @others
This customization which source refused to elaborate and said will be known soon in media is a bit touchy topic. What customization did India ask for. Can it Astra, IRST and HMDS+ amti shipping missile integration? 

He did not elaborate much but just said somethings (plural) from Israel making it a very unique Rafale ever build. 

The Harpoon customization is also a news to me for Anti Shipping roles perhaps indicating the present roles by other categories in IAF will be taken over by these birds.

And if Harpoon then how many we have? If we are integrating Harpoons also then are going to order new Harpoons soon from USA?Or is it Brahmos?

its now more tizzy for me.. I am perplexed actually.. Did offset led to rise in Infra support services price? Customizations is a huge amount?

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## anant_s

PARIKRAMA said:


> ++
> Source based information - (take it with pinch of salt, dont blame me)
> ++
> 
> IGA is 150 odd pages
> India wanted guarantees from French Government
> The main guarantee was the term that India (IAF+IN) needs a much higher number jets than 36+18 now being discussed
> French government will monitor the whole deal execution for present as well as future deals
> The main agenda includes France government and its mechanism monitoring the entire deal, delivery schedule and legal issues arising out of ay performance based financial penalty.
> The IGA describes the entire details of the jet, standard, armaments and customization
> Customization includes Astra BVR integration + another few specific customization which needs development and financing by India.
> This new customization will in fact push the Rafales being inducted into India and now the first Rafale will join in 3 years and last on in 5.5 years.
> Manufacturers of the entire supply chain of Dassault are suppose to submit their counter parties tie up or opening of new facilities in India to Dassault and in turn Dassault would submit the same to French Government
> Dassault also wants a possibility of moving Falcon jets line to India besides the Rafale Jet
> The deal sets up the whole basic infrastructure required for next set of Rafales without new investments in basic infrastructures.
> The 2 bases will act as the MRO centers besides the main manufacturing plant.
> The spares/service being procured is for 10 years and India is negotiating for 15 years at the same price.
> Bullet payment upto 50% against signing amount of 15% is being offered for quicker implementation, more discounts and offset implementation on time.
> The basic cost of 36 jets and weapons with offsets are in line with a price tag of approximate Rs 800 Crs. Negotiations going on to decrease it
> The fighters are for 40 years and service has been requested to ensure these jets can serve 50 years.
> The customization cost is coming out high as Indian Rafales will be in between F3 OT4 but less than F3R. Such customization are at present Not requested by any AF including FrAF (beyond IRST)
> The customization cost itself is estimated at close to Euro 2 Bn plus which includes systems/sub systems from Israel and is a one time cost for all future purchases at one go.
> Integration of one more sub system to fire US Harpoon AShM (to be taken over for Anti Shipping roles)
> The infrastructure, support, services, spares and other categories under total cost of ownership are estimated at around Euro 5 Bn
> Jets + weapons are estimated at Euro 4 bn
> The deal all inclusive is estimated at Euro 11 Bn
> The final negotiations are going on to see how a Euro 0.5 bn-1 Bn cost can be reduced and some terms can be altered for more favoring to Indian requests. The deal may get lower cost in case of some terms being left or deleted by Indian side but that seems very difficult.
> +++
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @cerberus @Vauban @MilSpec @others
> This customization which source refused to elaborate and said will be known soon in media is a bit touchy topic. What customization did India ask for. Can it Astra, IRST and HMDS+ amti shipping missile integration?
> 
> He did not elaborate much but just said somethings (plural) from Israel making it a very unique Rafale ever build.
> 
> The Harpoon customization is also a news to me for Anti Shipping roles perhaps indicating the present roles by other categories in IAF will be taken over by these birds.
> 
> And if Harpoon then how many we have? If we are integrating Harpoons also then are going to order new Harpoons soon from USA?Or is it Brahmos?
> 
> its now more tizzy for me.. I am perplexed actually.. Did offset led to rise in Infra support services price? Customizations is a huge amount?




Well one thing is looking quite clear even if the points mentioned above couldn't be verified at this point of time (they appear logical though). India is looking to create an Air Force around Rafale. these are going to be our workhorses for the future.
Let us remind ourselves of two very important points that swayed decision in favor of Rafale and EFT during MMRCA days were: 

Both Rafale and EFT are immune to any kind of Super-power influence at later point of time, should there be changes in national foreign policy.
Both Rafale and EFT are relatively very new aircrafts and only beginning a long (at least 2 decades) of improvement and development of newer variants/tranches.
MMRCA fell flat in its face but that was owing to procurement procedures we adopted and not on technical capability of fighters. But with Indian government approaching Rafale induction through and alternate path tells, where our faith lies. Here i must point out, that it is a new government which is trying to find out ways to induct a hardware that previous government chose, which also tells that even with different political ideology, the decision taken by user (IAF) is given topmost respect, which i find very heartening. 

Now some of us (myself included) here on PDF believe that India will end up having 10-12 squadrons of Rafale and it means that apart from heavy role MKIs and point defence or light role LCA, almost all duties will go to Rafale. I don't want to comment on FGFA and AMCA as we really don't know when and how they'll come.

So if one is taking decisions based purely on options available on table, investing in large scale on Rafale will turn out to be a wise decision. 
10 years down the line we won't remember a couple of billion dollars plus or minus in this deal, but the strategic clarity and offset advantage it should bring to Indian forces and industry.



Oscar said:


> As for the Rafale deal, all the financial number crunching posted away here seems amusing when they are excluding the greatest cost of all to the IAF : TIME!


can't be put it in any better words!
That's the crux of whole issue.

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## kaykay

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Taygibay


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/692368516385751040
This coming from a journo with IBN7 TV.....

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## sathya

5 years from now,
no more migs except

mig29upg/k/kub ,upgraded jaguars , LCA , su 30mki, Rafales, few samples of pak fa.

ALH , rudra , ACH , mi 17v , chinook , Apache, LUH 

Good 4th generation fighters.



kaykay said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Taygibay
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/692368516385751040
> This coming from a journo with IBN7 TV.....



Marginally is how much ?

Did we compromise on anything?

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## kaykay

sathya said:


> 5 years from now,
> no more migs except
> 
> mig29upg/k/kub ,upgraded jaguars , LCA , su 30mki, Rafales, few samples of pak fa.
> 
> ALH , rudra , ACH , mi 17v , chinook , Apache
> 
> Good 4th generation fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> Marginally is how much ?
> 
> Did we compromise on anything?


I don't think as everything except finances are already cleared and approved so no question of compromising what is approved already. Now how much is 'marginal' is yet to be seen. I think 8-9 Billion will be the cost( with 50% offset of course).

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## sathya

Since the deal for 36 fly aways are almost done for the last time...

Who gets to make it the India part ?

My order of preferences will be
1. Tata
2. HAL
3. Mahendra
4. Godrej
5. L&T
6. Reliance

Or a combination of these for modular building.


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## [Bregs]

*France 'marginally' reduces Rafale price: Report*

NEW DELHI: The French have "marginally" reduced the price of Rafale combat planes but India is seeking more and the multi-billion dollar deal could take at least another six weeks to be finalised, government sources said on Wednesday.

The price for 36 Rafales, as per the UPA tender, keeping the cost escalation and dollar rate in view, comes to over Rs 66,000 crore (around 9 billion Euros), they said.

This includes the cost involved in making changes that India has sought in the aircraft, including Israeli helmet-mounted display and some specific weaponry, among others.
"The effort is to bring down the price to around Euros 8 billion (over Rs 59,000 crore)," the sources said, adding that the actual price negotiations only started from January 21.

"They have come down from the original price as per the earlier tender of the UPA but we expect more," they said.

Asked about plane price being offered by the French now, they said it has been reduced "marginally".

Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Francois Hollande Modi had agreed to conclude an inter-governmental agreement for supply of the aircraft "on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway", which was the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) tender.
Another point under discussion is the payment of advance which India will have to make.

"At least 50 per cent advance will have to be made, including 15 per cent immediate payment," the sources said, adding that details on how the French government will stand guarantee was being worked out.
"Also, the document (inter-governmental agreement) will need legal vetting and clearance from the Cabinet Committee on Security," the sources said.

They also said that 50 per cent offset will apply to the deal. The French had initially not agreed to it but the roadblock was removed in August last year after Modi spoke to Hollande over phone.

Following the MoU signed on January 25 during Hollande's visit, Dassault Aviation, the manufacturer of Rafale, had said in a statement, "We are very pleased with this progress, and actively supporting French authorities in their efforts to finalize a complete agreement within the next four weeks."

They said the agreement will pave the way for the "conclusion of a contract" for the sale of 36 Rafale fighters to India.

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## PARIKRAMA

kaykay said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Taygibay
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/692368516385751040
> This coming from a journo with IBN7 TV.....



See if i remember correctly, the IBN7 Khabar carried the news that rafales are Rs 750 Crs for weapons included. So if a marginal drop of say 5-7% more happens than i guess we are looking at Rs 700-710 Crs weapons included. That would mean Euro 3.5 Bn versus earlier estimate i had shown above at Euro 4 Bn.

As i said above the other two components, 
Customization = Euro 2 Bn
The infrastructure, support, services, spares and other categories under total cost of ownership are estimated at around Euro 5 Bn. This may go down at max by 10-20% to best estimate of Euro 4 Bn

These 2 heads is the main worry.
Unless we see a decrease in these 2 heads, the overall figure does not change much

So it comes down to Euro 9.5 Bn or Rs68400 Crs type +/-5% here and there reduction more.

As i said whats the customisation thats so much critical?

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## kaykay

^^ By above news, it appears that India is not compromising on any weapon and 'goodies'. Now in all probability Deal will be signed in ~9 Billion USD( 59000-60000 crore) with 50% offset.

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## PARIKRAMA

[Bregs] said:


> Another point under discussion is the payment of advance which India will have to make.
> 
> "At least 50 per cent advance will have to be made, including 15 per cent immediate payment,






PARIKRAMA said:


> Bullet payment upto 50% against signing amount of 15% is being offered for quicker implementation, more discounts and offset implementation on time.



So these 2 points match..
So good source is giving some good infor at least partly..

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## sathya

PARIKRAMA said:


> So these 2 points match..
> So good source is giving some good infor at least partly..



Here is my theory

France has already started building Rafales for IAF
With immediate 50% upfront payment we start to get Rafales under 24 months.

What's worth 2 billion customisation ?
- nuclear capability 
- litening 4 pod
- Astra / nirbhay / bhramos NG / sudhrshan 
- harpoon / CBU 97

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## PARIKRAMA

Harpoon
"The latest deal to be inked, worth around $170 million, is the one for 24 Harpoon Block-II anti-ship missiles to arm the maritime strike Jaguar fighters in IAF's combat fleet. "

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...rms-deals/articleshow/6601777.cms?referral=PM
++
This means the Anti Shipping roles will go to Rafales so at least 1 squadron would be closer to shore based base. Either in East coast overlooking Bay of Bengal or western coast overlooking Arabian Sea. Since numbers are limited i see 1 squadron using it or else, we may have to procure more form USA.

Now the same TOI article mentions that we have not signed CISMOA, LSA, BECA etc. yet we got 24 Harpoons. and now for whole fleet we are requesting customisation and paying for it.

Does it indicate we are getting more harpoons without all such agreements or it means we are signing it anyways?

+++




sathya said:


> France has already started building Rafales for IAF
> With immediate 50% upfront payment we start to get Rafales under 24 month



Thats a possibility but the higher % payment upfront may be for offset financing for the MII part too. Bcz if we are looking at a manufacturing line with a pvt sector, investment is needed for the complete setup

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## Spectre

PARIKRAMA said:


> As i said whats the customisation thats so much critical?



I doubt the full extent will be public but can speculate on the following

. Astra and certain other missiles some of which are not operational yet but all the same one time payment covers this. 
. Access to the soft-ware for Avionics installation and modification
. Hard-wiring for strategic roles

The last two points are going to cost us a lot. The monetary cost is not for the hardware but for the access allowed

-Rafales will be uniquely Indian with no strings once these customizations are achieved. 
-Eliminates possibility of external tampering via back-doors which is possible in case Indian internal conflict with French
-Allows for Rafales to be used in roles which are not explicitly stated
-The customization payment is not just for 36 but the future orders too
- It ties in with Make in India
- Local missiles will be cheaper to a large large extent. 
- Airframes can be maintained independently once the spare and maintenance facilities are set up but we don't want to be dependant on ammunition in case of conflicts

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## Tameem

Can anybody confirm if this deal inclusive of Meteor BVR missile and AESA Radar? Giving the huge cost it should be...If its not then rest assured you people are really fvckd up by french.

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## sathya

Rafales being offensive platform would like to get ours LGB s (for sustaining in war)and CBU 97 bomb (taking out tank regiments) integrated 
Nirbhay , bhramos for standoff targets

 French cruise missiles for special targets.

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## PARIKRAMA

Spectre said:


> The customization payment is not just for 36 but the future orders too





PARIKRAMA said:


> The customization cost itself is estimated at close to Euro 2 Bn plus which includes systems/sub systems from Israel and is a one time cost for all future purchases at one go.



Yes both these points look logical for sure..



Spectre said:


> Allows for Rafales to be used in roles which are not explicitly stated


Yes thats also a good solid catch. Besides strategic role, if Harpoon customization or AshM customization is being done then we are looking at Rafale taking over the shore based patrol roles or Maritime Strike roles too.

Now that changes the whole playing field. Till now we have talked about Strategic, DPSA and TASA. A maritime strike role or Shore based patrolling roles over seas indicates the large number fleet

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## kaykay

Tameem said:


> Can anybody confirm if this deal inclusive of Meteor BVR missile and AESA Radar? Giving the huge cost it should be...If its not then rest assured you people are really fvckd up by french.


It will come with complete weapon and avionics package which includes Meteor and GaN AESA. Some Israeli components are to be added on Indian Rafales too as per Indian demand.

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## sathya

Tameem said:


> Can anybody confirm if this deal inclusive of Meteor BVR missile and AESA Radar? Giving the huge cost it should be...If its not then rest assured you people are really fvckd up by french.



AESA is a given
Meteor as soon as it is available I guess.

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## PARIKRAMA

Tameem said:


> Can anybody confirm if this deal inclusive of Meteor BVR missile and AESA Radar? Giving the huge cost it should be...If its not then rest assured you people are really fvckd up by french.


RBE 2 AESA will be there Sir.
Meteor will be limited in numbers as we will look for Astra BVR integration and MICA IR 

We may later get a additional meteor numbers based on specific needs.

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## sathya

PARIKRAMA said:


> Yes both these points look logical for sure..
> 
> 
> Yes thats also a good solid catch. Besides strategic role, if Harpoon customization or AshM customization is being done then we are looking at Rafale taking over the shore based patrol roles or Maritime Strike roles too.
> 
> Now that changes the whole playing field. Till now we have talked about Strategic, DPSA and TASA. A maritime strike role or Shore based patrolling roles over seas indicates the large number fleet




Harpoon integration better to do it with a naval Rafale M ?
Could be used with shore and carriers ?

Why IAF getting it integrated instead of navy ?

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## PARIKRAMA

sathya said:


> Harpoon integration better to do it with a naval Rafale M ?
> Could be used with shore and carriers ?
> 
> Why IAF getting it integrated instead of navy ?


At the moment shore patrolling is done by IAF.
For Rafale M to come online for this or any other variant in future, IN has to be allowed to do shore patrolling and maritime strike role. For the time being its IAF who is suppose to do it.

Perhaps yes, as we are looking at carrier based Rafale M, this paves way for a common integration for the whole fleet across the board.

Ok again after much haggling the source he uttered some weird stuff.. Take it with pinch of salt


Rafale will carry 3 new smaller versions of Brahmos or Brahmos NG
Antishipping role/maritime strike/shore patrol because we will use Harpoon/Brahmos combo
HMD - Its going to be a kind people have not imagined. Talks are for something like Dash IV with some features derived from HMD from F35. Offer for Dash III already there
The larger sum is suppose to be for Snecma M88 variant not being used as of now.
Considering the word used - Snecma M88 variant not being used. The present Sncema is M88-4E. It may indicate a new variant with may be more thrust like 5-10% additional may be.

That may be the reason for the higher cost.

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## sathya

PARIKRAMA said:


> At the moment shore patrolling is done by IAF.
> For Rafale M to come online for this or any other variant in future, IN has to be allowed to do shore patrolling and maritime strike role. For the time being its IAF who is suppose to do it.
> 
> Perhaps yes, as we are looking at carrier based Rafale M, this paves way for a common integration for the whole fleet across the board.
> 
> Ok again after much haggling the source he uttered some weird stuff.. Take it with pinch of salt
> 
> 
> Rafale will carry 3 new smaller versions of Brahmos or Brahmos NG
> Antishipping role/maritime strike/shore patrol because we will use Harpoon/Brahmos combo
> HMD - Its going to be a kind people have not imagined. Talks are for something like Dash IV with some features derived from HMD from F35. Offer for Dash III already there
> The larger sum is suppose to be for Snecma M88 variant not being used as of now.
> Considering the word used - Snecma M88 variant not being used. The present Sncema is M88-4E. It may indicate a new variant with may be more thrust like 5-10% additional may be.
> 
> That may be the reason for the higher cost.



It's amazing how you get so much Infos.

Whether it turn out to be true or not, it's damn interesting ..

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## PARIKRAMA

sathya said:


> It's amazing how you get so much Infos.
> 
> Whether it turn out to be true or not, it's damn interesting ..



I will get my share of brickbats too...
Supposing if things go bad or say rafale does nt get MII in India or price comes out really high as components like i divided based on source is not revealed, most probably all will bash me here.. 

Unfortunately, i see too many risks in everything. Rafale line is a necessity borne out of sheer bad luck and terrible planning at political level. 

I see great potential but then dont know how our GOI could make it work. Imagine a scenario where 5th technology from PAKFA Stage 2/FGFA + 4.75 or 4.5+++ technology from Rafale + Israeli Tech = AMCA (IAF variant + Naval)

Avoid GE engines and you get a voila product. Sanction proof, best of the east and west.

Thats why i see Rafale is so so much strategic. The assembling and supply chain localisation in a decade along with FGFA MII part these two actions puts us on pinnacle of 4th gen tech based MIC and 5th Gen tech based MIC. This product combination paves way for a impressive MIC development.

The biggest side benefit will come to another product line. The LCA MKXX series. the upgraded MIC will enable developing LCA further.

There would be hiccups on this. No country particularly competitors wont like India to pursue this path. They will create problems for France and Russia for such projects with us.

An example is the 3 agreements with USA (LSA, CISMOA, BECA) all will slowly tie us up with USA products via which our own projects like AMCA will be hijacked and will be slowly replaced with their MIC products. 

So GOI once has started walking this path must be firm and not get pressurized or sucked up by any attempts to slow us down or tone down our strategic relationship with France.

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> If you consider from Flyaway price then life cycle cost is 3 X multiple of flyaway cost.



OK I have heard anywhere from between 2.5X to 3X. I guess like you stated it depends a lot on the final order size beyond these 36 given shared use of maintenance infra etc.

Thanks for your analysis. Lets see how it all goes down.

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## Chinese-Dragon

Huh?

Wasn't the original MMRCA deal 126 Rafale for $11 billion?

Now the cost is the same, but India is only getting 35 Rafale?


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## Nilgiri

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Wasn't the original MMRCA deal 126 Rafale for $11 billion?



That was only airframes + some included basic weaponry. Not including combined total Life cycle costs which you would need to multiply by 2.5 - 3 times.


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## Dungeness

Nilgiri said:


> That was only airframes + some included basic weaponry. Not including *combined total Life cycle costs *which you would need to multiply by 2.5 - 3 times.



Was that not considered in the original 126 proposal?


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## Blue Marlin

MilSpec said:


> I like the Rafales, It's a great platform, but yes the french are completely taking India for a ride with this.
> 
> This Product life cycle cost estimates submitted by mfg and evaluated by IAF has no relevance at all. A product's life cycle cost in france is very different from it's life cycle cost in India. and IAF by no means has the expertise or the experience to evaluate life cycle costs.
> 
> I have long said, that we should have gotten out of the MMRCA and just focused on additional MKI's and maybe bought two to three squadrons of Mig35 or even the Mig29K which really are the true successors to the Mig29M.
> But this issue i think was complicated by lack of confidence on the PMF FGFA.
> 
> The costs presented almost makes me think, f18SH could have been a good choice for the MMRCA..


yes your right, so whats the solution? in my opinion they should have played it safe and should have gone for the su35 but to india's requirements and call it the su35 mki and should build the parts in india and have a engine and overhaul and aintainance facility in india which would remove bottel necks in maintainance. this is the prefered path india should have taken.
yes americain kit does come with strings attached, just ask pakistan.
the rafale fiasco has gone for too long and its too late for india to back of now, and the french have realised this and are milking india.

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## Nilgiri

Dungeness said:


> Was that not considered in the original 126 proposal?



It was, just the RFP and RFI always quotes the short term immediate capex/hardware costs.

Whereas this time the media has simply latched on to a figure they have heard....and people wrongly imply apples = oranges.

There is no question of the cost per actual craft inflating by this amount...even if we are looking in Rupee terms.

At most the cost for the airframe + weapons alone has went up frrom around 87 million to 100 - 120 million because of the smaller economies of scale for 36 compared to 126 (which will again settle down to the lower figure when more aircraft are ordered).

AFAIK, the actual negotiation going on right now involves how much is being added on to the original baseline cost when accounting for EURO/USD changes, extra demands from India for complete integration of various weapons modules (mostly israeli and local) along with a demand for 90% serviceability in the first 2 years....and of course offset terms and ToT levels etc.

In reverse, pretty much any of the original contenders would have been snapped up immediately by India if they offered 126 aircraft for 11 billion USD if that was the total lifecycle cost hehe. That would be less than 35 million per aircraft direct hardware....thats giving a used/reserve F-16A, chinese vanilla fighter or LCA a huge run for its money at a much higher tech level!

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## Taygibay

LOL KayKay, you are a charming fellow but really? Re-posting a hashtag

RAFEL???
​Is that the same Rafel that won and then loss the MYMCA competition,
coming in first place by nose in front of the AsioBomber ( AB 2000 AKA THAIFUN )?

I know I'm a stickler for proper spelling but I'll still venture that that poor
fellow is not quite qualified?



Cheers mate! Tay. 

P.S. I already don't care how repeated this news gets ( it's financing that's unresolved not price ),
the Indian media / news juicer will wring any lemon thrown at it until it's ground powder,
it's not indicative of anything!

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## Dungeness

Nilgiri said:


> It was, just the RFP and RFI always quotes the short term immediate capex/hardware costs.
> 
> Whereas this time the media has simply latched on to a figure they have heard....and people wrongly imply apples = oranges.
> 
> There is no question of the cost per actual craft inflating by this amount...even if we are looking in Rupee terms.
> 
> At most the cost for the airframe + weapons alone has went up frrom around 87 million to 100 - 120 million because of the smaller economies of scale for 36 compared to 126 (which will again settle down to the lower figure when more aircraft are ordered).
> 
> AFAIK, the actual negotiation going on right now involves how much is being added on to the original baseline cost when accounting for EURO/USD changes, extra demands from India for complete integration of various weapons modules (mostly israeli and local) along with a demand for 90% serviceability in the first 2 years....and of course offset terms and ToT levels etc.
> 
> In reverse, pretty much any of the original contenders would have been snapped up immediately by India if they offered 126 aircraft for 11 billion USD if that was the total lifecycle cost hehe. That would be less than 35 million per aircraft direct hardware....thats giving a used/reserve F-16A, chinese vanilla fighter or LCA a huge run for its money at a much higher tech level!



After Egypt and Qatar deals, French are now in a better negotiation position than they were 4 years ago. India has to fight an uphill battle. What I don't understand is Mody announced a deal of "36 Rafales in Fly Away Condition" last year, and why the "offset" is becoming an issue again? 

To be honest, India should really break this cycle of purchasing-ToT-assemble-purchase, which doesn't really take you anywhere. Even the "offset" terms are met, which I think it is merely for political purpose of showing the progress of "Make In India" under Mody, it will not help India much in terms of designing and developing India's own future fighters. The cycle will continue.

India should really use its hard earned money wisely and use it on building its own R&D base, and the experience you got from LCA program will definitely have a positive impact. India spent almost 10 years making this program the "Mother of all deals" if you count the original RFI for MMRCA, and spent next 4 making it the "Mother of all no-deals". It is 14 years wasted for your defense R&D engineers and for facility building.

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## Nilgiri

Dungeness said:


> After Egypt and Qatar deals, French are now in a better negotiation position than they were 4 years ago. India has to fight an uphill battle. What I don't understand is Mody announced a deal of "36 Rafales in Fly Away Condition" last year, and why the "offset" is becoming an issue again?
> 
> To be honest, India should really break this cycle of purchasing-ToT-assemble-purchase, which doesn't really take you anywhere. Even the "offset" terms are met, which I think it is merely for political purpose of showing the progress of "Make In India" under Mody, it will not help India much in terms of designing and developing India's own future fighters. The cycle will continue.
> 
> India should really use its hard earned money wisely and use it on building its own R&D base, and the experience you got from LCA program will definitely have a positive impact.



We will have to wait and see what the final deal's details are like before I will comment on the ToT, offset requirements.

Tbh, fighters are just one small part of overall Indian defense scenario. The most important things have already been "indigenized"... i.e missile hardware, basic material design + production, fuels + propellants, basic + middle level flight hardware/software....and promising advance in sensors, electronics, naval hardware and space systems.

Right now the operationalising of the production chain strategy for such things (where they are currently inefficient and highly monopolized) is the focus of the current govt....by bringing in large capable private firms at various levels and not having to saddle advanced multiple-source defence production with govt controlled enterprises only (like before).

I am very fine with running 2 major acquisitions for IAF concurrently, one more foreign based (Rafale), one more local based (LCA) till the dust firmly settles on the strategy for the next generation platforms....(in theory given what India is coming from and what India aspires to).

This is still after all the transition period, and it will last for a few more decades. Both blind Fanboys and extreme naysayers should not distract from the pragmatic reality and lofty goals. This year will be an interesting one....but I am certain it will not be "business as usual" as in the past....especially w.r.t production line for the LCA being set up.

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## Vergennes

@Nilgiri @Chinese-Dragon @Blue Marlin @PARIKRAMA @Taygibay

Why i feel 36 Rafale would be the only IAF's order. (Rest made of Tejas and SU30)
At least,those 36 will be built in France. 
-
Let's wait and see for more details when deal is effectively signed.

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## phancong

Deal still not sign after 14 yrs of negotiation. French president show up in India and the deal still hinge on the price agreement.


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## Blue Marlin

Vauban said:


> @Nilgiri @Chinese-Dragon @Blue Marlin @PARIKRAMA @Taygibay
> 
> Why i feel 36 Rafale would be the only IAF's order. (Rest made of Tejas and SU30)
> At least,those 36 will be built in France.
> -
> Let's wait and see for more details when deal is effectively signed.


well its been hell really. even the selection process was badly setup as mentioned by @MilSpec.
the navy is get aircraft carriers with emals and india has the mig 29k which is the only carrier capable jet but it does not need a catapult only a ramp. so why why build an airfract carrier with emals when it does not have jets that need it? the rafale m will come to the indian navy which is quiet likely or the f18 hornet. also russia said they will configure the mig 29k's for emal launch. so there is some prospects left in regards for india. honestly vauban your right it will only be a jet 36 order with no likely possibility of future block orders. this will be very costly for india, quiet literally infact and it already is and it has not even landed in india.

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## Dungeness

Nilgiri said:


> We will have to wait and see what the final deal's details are like before I will comment on the ToT, offset requirements.
> 
> Tbh, fighters are just one small part of overall Indian defense scenario. The most important things have already been "indigenized"... i.e missile hardware, basic material design + production, fuels + propellants, basic + middle level flight hardware/software....and promising advance in sensors, electronics, naval hardware and space systems.
> 
> Right now the operationalising of the production chain strategy for such things (where they are currently inefficient and highly monopolized) is the focus of the current govt....by bringing in large capable private firms at various levels and not having to saddle advanced multiple-source defence production with govt controlled enterprises only (like before).
> 
> I am very fine with running 2 major acquisitions for IAF concurrently, one more foreign based (Rafale), one more local based (LCA) till the dust firmly settles on the strategy for the next generation platforms....(in theory given what India is coming from and what India aspires to).
> 
> This is still after all the transition period, and it will last for a few more decades. Both blind Fanboys and extreme naysayers should not distract from the pragmatic reality and lofty goals. This year will be an interesting one....but I am certain it will not be "business as usual" as in the past....especially w.r.t production line for the LCA being set up.



Indian members here tend to believe in the miracle of ToT too much as if the technologies can be actually transplanted. * ToT is mere a "Book" you bought,* and it is up to you to read and digest it and turn the "story" into your own. Just look back in India's history of defense industries, how much you have actually benefited from all those ToTs that you paid a fortune for?

Your guys like to stand on a "moral high ground", and laugh at China's "copy and paste" effort, but it is an effective way for a technically backward country to catch up industrial leaders, especially in defense industries where nobody will actually share the core technologies with you. China and India imported Su-27/30 family Russian fighters about the same time, while India has to ask Russian to upgrade its fleet, Chinese are mass-producing J-11, J-15, J-16 with incremental improvements on each subsequent batch. 

I hope, with private sector getting involved in defense industries, India will break the cycle and come up with its own advanced defense products in the near future. Just don't "sleep" on ToT.

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## Nilgiri

Dungeness said:


> Indian members here tend to believe in the miracle of ToT too much as if the technologies can be actually transplanted. * ToT is mere a "Book" you bought,* and it is up to you to read and digest it and turn the "story" into your own. Just look back in India's history of defense industries, how much you have actually benefited from all those ToTs that you paid a fortune for?



Well its highly variable experience. Some were quite good (if you read up on the Sepecat Jaguar for example and the DARIN upgrade that resulted from long term intrinsic ToT combined with local research and development). 

The somewhat other side from same program is in fact as far back as the 80s, India developed a local fix for the aircrafts nose landing gear issue (it would collapse quite frequently on landing) which was later claimed by the company itself and used to address aircraft under service in other countries...at no cost to them.

Same thing with Russians/USSR. All sorts of technology have permeated from the ToT signed for all Mig series production...mostly related to production side manufacturing methods. On other hand a lot of ToT for say tanks and vehicles was simply bolting on armour to tank body....but thats normally because India did not press for much massive fundamental ToT requirement there since we developed local technology already at CVRDE and other such RnD places.

The only really lacking ToT has been Jet engine technology....no one wants to part with anything too crucial so its a long term process.

There is decent knowledge and experience inflow coming in....on the balance sheet overall its ok....to get something you got to pay something....so sometimes we get a good injection of technology at very low margin and that balances the high margin "easy tech" ToT that is sometimes part of the same deal.

The main problem with Indian defence production has little to do with the ToT story but with the effective production operationalising.

This can only come with ample and consolidated investment and a balanced public-private approach to design, development and production. Before it was terribly skewed by over-relying on a few PSUs that had their own vested interests and deep rooted inefficiencies. The root cause of this approach was from the low "tech" demand from Indian armed forces given its low budget (especially on per capita terms)...so the margins were not that high to develop a consolidated defence production base. The margins (and progress) only existed where there was significant spin off effects to other sectors (like electronics, communications, power equipment, traction etc..). 

For example my uncle worked (before he retired) for a company called BEL which is one of these PSUs that benefited from a lot of the spinoffs coming from the direct ToT imported from USSR (and later Ukraine) regarding battlefield communications technology. Now BEL makes very good quality sets and has even diversified to other related areas like tactical radars and WLRs by its own RnD that was spawned/enhanced from the initial ToT.

So an in depth analysis, taking into account:

a) socialist and later monopolist PSU mindset of Indian defence production 

b) the time it took to really increase the defence budget to levels to provide sustainable margins and requirements...given GDP size, taxation. opportunity costs etc

...is really a very detailed and complicated thing to do....and there is no black and white answer I am afraid.



Dungeness said:


> Your guys like to stand on a "moral high ground", and laugh at China's "copy and paste" effort, but it is an effective way for a technically backward country to catch up industrial leaders, especially in defense industries where nobody will actually share the core technologies with you. China and India imported Su-27/30 family Russian fighters about the same time, while India has to ask Russian to upgrade its fleet, Chinese are mass-producing J-11, J-15, J-16 with incremental improvements on each subsequent batch.



Well I am never one of those "guys". I have always been appreciative of the Chinese strategy and its one that we can learn from for sure. It is interesting to notice that Modi has been very impressed by China's defence sector and economy as a whole. Thats why there is now a big push along those lines in many industries....but we cannot go "cold turkey" so to speak....there will have to be a transition over a decade maybe (hopefully less).

There are many bright spots in Indian defence sector right now who's concepts and experience will serve as the beacon for the areas that are still stuck in the old inefficient "low absorption and lack of continued development"...so there will be an effective overhaul of all the crucial "value-added" items like aviation, propulsion and surveillance. Some will be big ticket stuff, some will be back to the basics like small arms and munitions (with added focus on Quality development, production and assurance).



Dungeness said:


> I hope, with private sector getting involved in defense industries, India will break the cycle and come up with its own advanced defense products in the near future. Just don't "sleep" on ToT.



Yup I hope so too. Sleeping on ToT was the hallmark of the previous govt. This govt is slowly getting the wheels rolling in areas that have been quite resistant to better and more efficient RnD strategy and production.

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## Taygibay

Vauban said:


> Why _do_ I feel 36 Rafale would be the only IAF's order?



Are you nuts, _mec_? Has your inner fanboy died or something? 
Get 36 Rafales in IAF's hands, wait a year and collect 300+ IAF pilots clamouring to get one too! 
That simple!  Then the Navy guys notice the hoopla and since the letter M magically appears ...

Come on, trust your champion! Tsssk, all that self-doubting and pessimism, how very French, mon gars!

Bonsoir chez vous, Tay.

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## sathya

36 intial fly aways got follow on order of 18, 
So this initial deal itself is for 54 crafts. That's the least.

Next comes the make in India part.

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## C130

sathya said:


> 36 intial fly aways got follow on order of 18,
> So this initial deal itself is for 54 crafts. That's the least.
> 
> Next comes the make in India part.



>next part make in India

and how long will that take to finalize that aspect? this whole process and tender has gone at a snails pace.

who is blame India or France or both?? is the relationship that toxic??


if you had went the Typhoon,Gripen, Mig-35 the whole process and cost would have been cheaper

if you went with the F-16 of F-18 the process and cost would have went even faster

I know compatibility is a big must, but I don't think Rafale is 2 to 3 times better than the other jets that were offered.


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## PARIKRAMA

The figure which look big in Euro has many components including the planes and weapons which is estimated around Euro 4Bn and the rest major support services and infrastructure, training spares etc etc which is estimated around a similar price of Euro 5 Bn. This itself makes up Euro 9 Bn which may come down by 10-15% and eventually become Euro 7.5 Bn.

On figure which may not change much but may get under different heads is customization part. Estimated around Euro 2 Bn. If India has requested for a customized Snecma M88 like say Snecma M88 - INDE over Snecma M88-4E then this itself will cost good. Bcz we operate at very extreme weather and altitudes, no one knows for sure that if Rafale has to say Cross the Himalayas what would be the effect of the same in its MTOW especially since Rafale is suppose to do more of terrain hugging low altitude flying capable.. Perhaps wary of such a move, India may have requested for a customized engine development for Indian Rafales to operate under such extreme conditions and challenging needs. 

On top a new engine will mean few thing surely

India wont settle for just 54 for a customized engine
The new engine development even if its ongoing will take at least 2 years so yes Indian rafales should come in 3 years minimum
A increase in thrust by 5%-10% implies a much better scenario for A2A role.
@Vauban 
What you are saying is a possibility but if what source says about a customised Engine requirement and others costing India a fortune and all that turns out close to truth not a gospel than the numbers have to go up as we are not so economically well off as say UAE who may want M88-9 for just 60 odd jets. Knowing India, it will order minimum 3-4 times of the deal size just to ensure this cost gets reduced via multiple platforms.

The biggest challenge perhaps is the fact that almost a decade and few years here and there back, at one point of time, India did indicate a humongous crush for Mirages. The expectation was huge, the love never seen before and a commitment in verbal terms for very high 100s in fact closer to 150s which alas broke down to just 50 odd numbers.

France is wary of a repeat of such story. And this time GOI is also playing a bit smart with at least indicating the requirement in writing so that a confidence can be given which cannot be broken. But i still believe France is not trusting us fully. Its understandable in that sense. 

May be time will tell what gonna be an outcome. But if we stick with just 36+18, i have to say than India feels rich like UAE but has bank balance much less than UAE.

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## sathya

C130 said:


> >next part make in India
> 
> and how long will that take to finalize that aspect? this whole process and tender has gone at a snails pace.
> 
> who is blame India or France or both?? is the relationship that toxic??
> 
> 
> if you had went the Typhoon,Gripen, Mig-35 the whole process and cost would have been cheaper
> 
> if you went with the F-16 of F-18 the process and cost would have went even faster
> 
> I know compatibility is a big must, but I don't think Rafale is 2 to 3 times better than the other jets that were offered.



Typhoon is costlier 
F18, 16, gripen all not sanction proof .
Rafale is costly but I guess it's sanction proof.

Regarding the pace of current deal, I think negotiations are overlapping with make in India part too..
Like the modifications needed..


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## Taygibay

Or to double up on Sathya,


C130 said:


> if you had went the Typhoon,Gripen, Mig-35 the whole process and cost would have been cheaper
> if you went with the F-16 of F-18 the process and cost would have went even faster



of the 5 jets you mentioned, 4 did not make the cut in that race?
It's worth waiting for the drill you ordered to screw something ...
as even a bagful of hammers won't help much?



PARIKRAMA said:


> a commitment in verbal terms for very high 100s in fact closer to 150s which alas broke down to just 50 odd numbers.



Question, Parik : Did the Tejas not kill that?
Coming initially in 1985, the 2000H series was to be confirmed by the original MRCA, single M, that was
virtually made to fit for it?
Then the appearance of the LCA hiked the MTOW requirement to shoo away platforms too close to its
expected metrics and capacities?
Thus we got the *M*MRCA? Without Tejas, Dehli would have bought the offered Mirage production line.

The bet wasn't stupid but it was shot in the foot by the realities of jet fighter design and manufacture.

Good day both and all, Tay.

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## C130

Taygibay said:


> Or to double up on Sathya,
> 
> 
> of the 5 jets you mentioned, 4 did not make the cut in that race?
> It's worth waiting for the drill you ordered to screw something ...
> as even a bagful of hammers won't help much?
> 
> 
> 
> Question, Parik : Did the Tejas not kill that?
> Coming initially in 1985, the 2000H series was to be confirmed by the original MRCA, single M, that was
> virtually made to fit for it?
> Then the appearance of the LCA hiked the MTOW requirement to shoo away platforms too close to its
> expected metrics and capacities?
> Thus we got the *M*MRCA? Without Tejas, Dehli would have bought the offered Mirage production line.
> 
> The bet wasn't stupid but it was shot in the foot by the realities of jet fighter design and manufacture.
> 
> Good day both and all, Tay.


my point is Rafale worth 2 to 3 times more than the worse performer??

it's India's money to spend. even i f they want to spend $20 billion on 36 jets that's on them.


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## Tejasfan7

sathya said:


> Typhoon is costlier
> F18, 16, gripen all not sanction proof .
> Rafale is costly but I guess it's sanction proof.
> 
> Regarding the pace of current deal, I think negotiations are overlapping with make in India part too..
> Like the modifications needed..



See underlying the logic of having a smaller interceptor instead of heavier air-dominance fighter in air force is that it is cheaper. but it in this case whole logic goes for a toss as your light weight interceptor is 4 times costly to your heavier more powerful fighter. Indian air forces is like a spoilt child who is addicted to imported shiny toys.


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## sathya

Tejasfan7 said:


> See underlying the logic of having a smaller interceptor instead of heavier air-dominance fighter in air force is that it is cheaper. but it in this case whole logic goes for a toss as your light weight interceptor is 4 times costly to your heavier more powerful fighter. Indian air forces is like a spoilt child who is addicted to imported shiny toys.



We are not looking for interceptor rather attack craft.

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## Taygibay

C130 said:


> my point is Rafale worth 2 to 3 times more than the worse performer??



That's a question for the 1st FW! 
But I agree to your view except that the price thing is across generations of Western fighters
and other weapons and now other countries too! If the Chengdu plant had the same kind of
free press roaming around it as we have, maybe the unit price of the J-20 would be on TV?
Check prices from F-14 to Super-Hornet or consider that the EF is per program cost still a tad
pricier than the Rafale. We'll have to wait for concurrency to finish ( I'm betting a couple years after production ends  )
in the F-35 one to know. Those toys go up in price according to MIC greed over reason if you ask me!
But rest assured that 20B$ is way off the chart.

Litening, Elbit HMCS, there are also integration costs that hike the tab which the client requires.
It really depends on what the IAF wants to do with those planes. I haven't seen their new tactics book?

A few more weeks, fingers crossed mate!
Good evening, Tay.

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## Abingdonboy

C130 said:


> my point is Rafale worth 2 to 3 times more than the worse performer??


Irrelevent. It's like saying, the Rafale cost 100 times more than a Cessna so just get the Cessna. Only 2 products met the 600+ requirements- Typhoon and Rafale, end of story. Bringing in products that didn't meet the criteria is a slippery slope.

And the 2-3 times figure you are quoting is pure conjecture, we have no idea at this point what the true cost to the IAF will be, I'm still expecting a price that is not too dissimilar to what the FrAF are paying for their Rafales.

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## dadeechi

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Huh?
> 
> Wasn't the original MMRCA deal 126 Rafale for $11 billion?
> 
> Now the cost is the same, but India is only getting 35 Rafale?



It's not 35. It is 36



sathya said:


> It's amazing how you get so much Infos.
> 
> Whether it turn out to be true or not, it's damn interesting ..




As per Hindu tradition @PARIKRAMA is always right

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## dadeechi

sathya said:


> Typhoon is costlier
> F18, 16, gripen all not sanction proof .
> Rafale is costly but I guess it's sanction proof.
> 
> Regarding the pace of current deal, I think negotiations are overlapping with make in India part too..
> Like the modifications needed..



Let me play devil's advocate

India is signing DTTI and tons of deals are being planned between India & US as part of that agreement.

Tejas' and AMCA engines are also going to be from US

So why would US not be sanction proof in case of F-16, F-18 or F-35s?

Also, France can no longer be considered a reliable sanction proof supplier after the Russian Mistral disaster.

The way I see it is India is diversifying the fighters across three different countries knowing that none of them would be sanction proof. The diversification may mitigate the sanctions, assuming all three countries do not pounce on India at the same time.

TEJAS, AMCA, F-35C - US

RAFALE and RAFALE-M - France

MIG-29K, SU30MKI & FGFA - Russia

@PARIKRAMA the biggest disappointment is not amount of money being spent but lack of ToT on Engine tech from Safran in spite of the colossal deal being negotiated.

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## C130

Abingdonboy said:


> Irrelevent. It's like saying, the Rafale cost 100 times more than a Cessna so just get the Cessna. Only 2 products met the 600+ requirements- Typhoon and Rafale, end of story. Bringing in products that didn't meet the criteria is a slippery slope.
> 
> And the 2-3 times figure you are quoting is pure conjecture, we have no idea at this point what the true cost to the IAF will be, I'm still expecting a price that is not too dissimilar to what the FrAF are paying for their Rafales.



comparing a fighter jet to a Cessna IMO is a bad analogy


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## Raftaar

Bhai log........is jahaaz mein aisa kya daal diya hai ???? i mean 11 billion is shit loads of money......m no economist but it sounds absurd.....French ki to nikal padi

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## PARIKRAMA



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## Taygibay

dadeechi said:


> Also, France can no longer be considered a reliable sanction proof supplier after the Russian Mistral disaster.



Whoa! Keep calm and have a sip of context, Dadeechi my friend!

We stopped the delivery only after asking the client to stop attacking a rather neutral autonomous country
on our common continent, offering a provision to re-activate the deal once this happened!
Moscow chose to hunt for Mariupol instead; so not our circus anymore?
You have nothing that compares on your continent. Think Japan refusing to sell you a signed deal mil ship
because Dehli invaded Malaysia, incredibly hypothetical but somewhat in the same category.

The problem in that deal was present from inception, mate : Trying to sell a high value asset for expeditionary
warfare to a non-ally ex-opponent with a proven record of invasion to helpless neighbours!
Our NATO allies had griped about it as soon as it was revealed, before it was signed!
Had those Mistrals been for India, that they'd have paraded on Republic day decked in Orange and Green!
HUH?  m'well, not down the avenue but you get the idea ... 

Good day all, Tay.

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## PARIKRAMA

+++
Buzz in the air from Source (take it with pinch of salt)

Russia's influential folks had a talk with MOD/GOI.
Goodies on offer includes a much bigger carrot named FGFA 
A deeper probability of certain tech from FGFA into two programs - Super Upgrade and domestic 5th Gen program AMCA
Goodies also includes other aspects including Black projects (SSN design and reactor help.. word being used Low cost Yasen) 
The indication given by Russia is "Dont go to France we will give you everything. Look we have brought down price of every item you have enquired. and these are the additional stuff we want you to think about"
DM have briefed the PM.
Action plan proposed for Rafale Deal seems to be
Play this as a ace card against France
The escalation clause demanded by Dassault (not French Government) from MMRCA timeline of 2007-08 be completely negated.
The base year becomes 2015 bcz of the new deal initiation from April 2015
So India says no escalation to any price and same as Fr AF (without VAT)
This keeps the price at Euro 3.5-4Bn including weapons
Weapon packages will be further trimmed down. Read negligible or no Meteors now but later in 2018+
The support, spares, infrastructure, training etc package quoted at approx Euro 5Bn is being reviewed to trim down. 
Spare usage is estimated at 5% of aircraft cost per years so basically an indicative price at flyaway of approx Euro 62 Mn implies spare for 5 years at 15.5 Mn versus 10 years 31 Mn per jet
For 36 jets this translates to Euro 550 Mn
A single base of operations, associated infrastructure set up and Spares for just 5 years upfront saves almost Euro 1.3-1.5 Bn 
The customized version costs of approximate Euro 2 Bn is again reviewed to see what can be reduced

Political will discussion
India will finally say what the final price expectation for just 36 jets
If its good enough 18 follow on will be sealed.
If the costs and offsets and plan for MII is seriously agreed in the form of offset implementation then GOI will agree for Rafale deal for a total of 200+ in MII.
If there is no mutual agreement, political will is being made to KILL RAFALE DEAL PERMANENTLY.

A final phone call is expected from PM NaMo to Prez Hollande outlining what India expects.
French government so far has agreed to every term that India has requested especially bcz India has clearly said requirement of 200+
The problem seems to be Dassault who does not want large volume based profit making and is concentrating on small deal large margins especially bcz of escalation clause use from 2007-08.
+++

@Vauban @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @anant_s 
Interesting turn of events. Dont know but seems this is getting to final action sequence of the moving.. Will it happy ending or major break up? Interesting times coming up..

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> +++
> Buzz in the air from Source (take it with pinch of salt)
> 
> Russia's influential folks had a talk with MOD/GOI.
> Goodies on offer includes a much bigger carrot named FGFA
> A deeper probability of certain tech from FGFA into two programs - Super Upgrade and domestic 5th Gen program AMCA
> Goodies also includes other aspects including Black projects (SSN design and reactor help.. word being used Low cost Yasen)
> The indication given by Russia is "Dont go to France we will give you everything. Look we have brought down price of every item you have enquired. and these are the additional stuff we want you to think about"
> DM have briefed the PM.
> Action plan proposed for Rafale Deal seems to be
> Play this as a ace card against France
> The escalation clause demanded by Dassault (not French Government) from MMRCA timeline of 2007-08 be completely negated.
> The base year becomes 2015 bcz of the new deal initiation from April 2015
> So India says no escalation to any price and same as Fr AF (without VAT)
> This keeps the price at Euro 3.5-4Bn including weapons
> Weapon packages will be further trimmed down. Read negligible or no Meteors now but later in 2018+
> The support, spares, infrastructure, training etc package quoted at approx Euro 5Bn is being reviewed to trim down.
> Spare usage is estimated at 5% of aircraft cost per years so basically an indicative price at flyaway of approx Euro 62 Mn implies spare for 5 years at 15.5 Mn versus 10 years 31 Mn per jet
> For 36 jets this translates to Euro 550 Mn
> A single base of operations, associated infrastructure set up and Spares for just 5 years upfront saves almost Euro 1.3-1.5 Bn
> The customized version costs of approximate Euro 2 Bn is again reviewed to see what can be reduced
> 
> Political will discussion
> India will finally say what the final price expectation for just 36 jets
> If its good enough 18 follow on will be sealed.
> If the costs and offsets and plan for MII is seriously agreed in the form of offset implementation then GOI will agree for Rafale deal for a total of 200+ in MII.
> If there is no mutual agreement, political will is being made to KILL RAFALE DEAL PERMANENTLY.
> 
> A final phone call is expected from PM NaMo to Prez Hollande outlining what India expects.
> French government so far has agreed to every term that India has requested especially bcz India has clearly said requirement of 200+
> The problem seems to be Dassault who does not want large volume based profit making and is concentrating on small deal large margins especially bcz of escalation clause use from 2007-08.
> +++
> 
> @Vauban @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @anant_s
> Interesting turn of events. Dont know but seems this is getting to final action sequence of the moving.. Will it happy ending or major break up? Interesting times coming up..


So it's a case of France vs Russia and either 200+ Rafales or 0?


I can't help but feel this is a game Russia is going to lose. Hollande was just in India and the future Indo-French stratgic relationship is looking incredibly bright and that too outside of defence (AREVA/Jaitpur plant, Alstom loco deal, investment in Smart cities and co-leadership in the solar alliance). Where is Russia in comparison? Almost non-existent in the Indian market with strategic deals stumbling from one issue to another (FGFA and MRTA) and on the commerical front almost nothing -2 more reactors for Kudankulam being the exception but dwarfed by the Jaitpur plant where Areva will set up 6 reactors in one go and make the plant the largest ever created.

Both India and France are going to look spectacuarly foolish if their relationship collapses now with so much new found momentum being built up. I just don't see it happening if I am honest- both sides and both leaders have far too much invested in the relationship for such an implosion to take place now.

I just can't shake the feeling that France has this in the bag- Dassualt just needs to get in line and surely the French Government has enough control over it to make it so? @Vauban @Taygibay



PARIKRAMA said:


> Will it happy ending or major break up? Interesting times coming up..


Some one is going to have to be dropped, there is no way all sides (France, Russia and India) get what they want if what you are saying is true. Russia is playing a high stakes zero sum game but this strategy looks like it is typical of Putin's overreaches and a major miscalculation has taken place because I no longer see Russia as the defacto strategic partner India should maintain ties with. France can and should take this position- if the French side is able to see this oppurtunity for what it is and grab it with both hands.

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## 45'22'

PARIKRAMA said:


> +++
> Buzz in the air from Source (take it with pinch of salt)
> 
> Russia's influential folks had a talk with MOD/GOI.
> Goodies on offer includes a much bigger carrot named FGFA
> A deeper probability of certain tech from FGFA into two programs - Super Upgrade and domestic 5th Gen program AMCA
> Goodies also includes other aspects including Black projects (SSN design and reactor help.. word being used Low cost Yasen)
> The indication given by Russia is "Dont go to France we will give you everything. Look we have brought down price of every item you have enquired. and these are the additional stuff we want you to think about"
> DM have briefed the PM.
> Action plan proposed for Rafale Deal seems to be
> Play this as a ace card against France
> The escalation clause demanded by Dassault (not French Government) from MMRCA timeline of 2007-08 be completely negated.
> The base year becomes 2015 bcz of the new deal initiation from April 2015
> So India says no escalation to any price and same as Fr AF (without VAT)
> This keeps the price at Euro 3.5-4Bn including weapons
> Weapon packages will be further trimmed down. Read negligible or no Meteors now but later in 2018+
> The support, spares, infrastructure, training etc package quoted at approx Euro 5Bn is being reviewed to trim down.
> Spare usage is estimated at 5% of aircraft cost per years so basically an indicative price at flyaway of approx Euro 62 Mn implies spare for 5 years at 15.5 Mn versus 10 years 31 Mn per jet
> For 36 jets this translates to Euro 550 Mn
> A single base of operations, associated infrastructure set up and Spares for just 5 years upfront saves almost Euro 1.3-1.5 Bn
> The customized version costs of approximate Euro 2 Bn is again reviewed to see what can be reduced
> 
> Political will discussion
> India will finally say what the final price expectation for just 36 jets
> If its good enough 18 follow on will be sealed.
> If the costs and offsets and plan for MII is seriously agreed in the form of offset implementation then GOI will agree for Rafale deal for a total of 200+ in MII.
> If there is no mutual agreement, political will is being made to KILL RAFALE DEAL PERMANENTLY.
> 
> A final phone call is expected from PM NaMo to Prez Hollande outlining what India expects.
> French government so far has agreed to every term that India has requested especially bcz India has clearly said requirement of 200+
> The problem seems to be Dassault who does not want large volume based profit making and is concentrating on small deal large margins especially bcz of escalation clause use from 2007-08.
> +++
> 
> @Vauban @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @anant_s
> Interesting turn of events. Dont know but seems this is getting to final action sequence of the moving.. Will it happy ending or major break up? Interesting times coming up..



I hope we arent ditching anybody

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## [Bregs]

PARIKRAMA said:


> +++
> Buzz in the air from Source (take it with pinch of salt)
> 
> Russia's influential folks had a talk with MOD/GOI.
> Goodies on offer includes a much bigger carrot named FGFA
> A deeper probability of certain tech from FGFA into two programs - Super Upgrade and domestic 5th Gen program AMCA
> Goodies also includes other aspects including Black projects (SSN design and reactor help.. word being used Low cost Yasen)
> The indication given by Russia is "Dont go to France we will give you everything. Look we have brought down price of every item you have enquired. and these are the additional stuff we want you to think about"
> DM have briefed the PM.
> Action plan proposed for Rafale Deal seems to be
> Play this as a ace card against France
> The escalation clause demanded by Dassault (not French Government) from MMRCA timeline of 2007-08 be completely negated.
> The base year becomes 2015 bcz of the new deal initiation from April 2015
> So India says no escalation to any price and same as Fr AF (without VAT)
> This keeps the price at Euro 3.5-4Bn including weapons
> Weapon packages will be further trimmed down. Read negligible or no Meteors now but later in 2018+
> The support, spares, infrastructure, training etc package quoted at approx Euro 5Bn is being reviewed to trim down.
> Spare usage is estimated at 5% of aircraft cost per years so basically an indicative price at flyaway of approx Euro 62 Mn implies spare for 5 years at 15.5 Mn versus 10 years 31 Mn per jet
> For 36 jets this translates to Euro 550 Mn
> A single base of operations, associated infrastructure set up and Spares for just 5 years upfront saves almost Euro 1.3-1.5 Bn
> The customized version costs of approximate Euro 2 Bn is again reviewed to see what can be reduced
> 
> Political will discussion
> India will finally say what the final price expectation for just 36 jets
> If its good enough 18 follow on will be sealed.
> If the costs and offsets and plan for MII is seriously agreed in the form of offset implementation then GOI will agree for Rafale deal for a total of 200+ in MII.
> If there is no mutual agreement, political will is being made to KILL RAFALE DEAL PERMANENTLY.
> 
> A final phone call is expected from PM NaMo to Prez Hollande outlining what India expects.
> French government so far has agreed to every term that India has requested especially bcz India has clearly said requirement of 200+
> *The problem seems to be Dassault who does not want large volume based profit making and is concentrating on small deal large margins especially bcz of escalation clause use from 2007-08.*
> +++
> 
> @Vauban @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @anant_s
> Interesting turn of events. Dont know but seems this is getting to final action sequence of the moving.. Will it happy ending or major break up? Interesting times coming up..



well the govt of india is prepared to wait much longer if dassault did not fall in life for the price and base rate of aircraft say year 2015. Its nota couple of billion $ deal its largest deal india is making

so if talks got stuck again, then india might start looking for other alternatives pending these 36+18 aircrafts till there is a viable solution

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## Abingdonboy

45'22' said:


> I hope we arent ditching anybody


This is the big boys table- at some point you have to start making hard choices and there will be casulaties. It is unreasonable to expect to keep everyone on your side when all nations are working for their own, often divergent, interests.

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## Nilgiri

Abingdonboy said:


> Both India and France are going to look spectacuarly foolish if their relationship collapses now with so much new found momentum being built up.



Indo-French relationship does not hinge on the Rafales. Indian market (in general) especially is too large for that....and the relationship goes too far back as well.

Any BARC scientist or engineer worth his salt will tell you just how crucial the French role is in miniaturising and militarising India's nuclear reactor design for example.

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## Abingdonboy

Nilgiri said:


> Indo-French relationship does not hinge on the Rafales. Indian market (in general) especially is too large for that....and the relationship goes too far back as well.


Of course, but it DOES have huge strategic implications. Mr Hollande made it clear that the Rafale's sale to India was a strategic deal and showcased the Indo-French deepening of ties. After both sides have placed so much emphasis on the Rafale deal specifically (Mr Hollande must have mentioned it 5-6 times during his remarks in the joint press conference with Modi) and the IGA has been announced, no Rafale deal now would be a consdierable dent to all future Indo-French strategic deals. This is a fact.

It's for this reason, I don't see the French backing down now- had the IGA not been signed I could see it but Hollande has put his cards on the table and he is behind the Rafale deal, Russia is going to lose this game and they are going to lose BIG. Think about the diveregence in reporting vis a vis strategic deals with India and Russia/France in the past few months, France has overwhelminginly hogged the limelight with a swathe of strategic deals being clinched, what has Russia got? The Ka-226s? All the hype before Modi's visit to Russia resulted in excatly ZERO strategic deals- no FGFA, no MRTA, no SSN, not even the Talwars. 

India is playing Russia and France against each other and it is heading for a conclusion, Russia is now said to have revised (downwards) the FGFA's cost for India and France is still working on the Rafale price.

There's something brewing between India and Russia and it's not going to be pretty, this is a divorce that has been long overdue. 

@PARIKRAMA @Levina @Parul @Vauban

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> Of course, but it DOES have huge strategic implications. Mr Hollande made it clear that the Rafale's sale to India was a strategic deal and showcased the Indo-French deepening of ties. After both sides have placed so much emphasis on the Rafale deal specifically (Mr Hollande must have mentioned it 5-6 times during his remarks in the joint press conference with Modi) and the IGA has been announced, no Rafale deal now would be a consdierable dent to all future Indo-French strategic deals. This is a fact.
> 
> It's for this reason, I don't see the French backing down now- had the IGA not been signed I could see it but Hollande has put his cards on the table and he is behind the Rafale deal, Russia is going to lose this game and they are going to lose BIG. Think about the diveregence in reporting vis a vis strategic deals with India and Russia/France in the past few months, France has overwhelminginly hogged the limelight with a swathe of strategic deals being clinched, what has Russia got? The Ka-226s? All the hype before Modi's visit to Russia resulted in excatly ZERO strategic deals- no FGFA, no MRTA, no SSN, not even the Talwars.
> 
> India is playing Russia and France against each other and it is heading for a conclusion, Russia is now said to have revised (downwards) the FGFA's cost for India and France is still working on the Rafale price.
> 
> There's something brewing between India and Russia and it's not going to be pretty, this is a divorce that has been long overdue.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Levina @Parul @Vauban



TBH even today when i had talked with source and the supply chain folks, the source news seems to suggest India wants to lock in a price with which it can go for first a flyaway deal and second a humongous MII deal.

If you see a basic math, assume the flyaway cost at 700 crs all loaded then its just 700x36 = Rs 25200 Crs or Euro 3.5 Bn

but see this whats the potential here
200 rafales at 550 Crs
200 x550 = Rs 1,10,000 crs or Euro 15.27 Bn

Spares consumed at 5% per year per jet under MII = 5% of 500 instead of 550 = Rs 25 Crs

So for 40 years its 25 x 40 x 200 = 2,00,000 Crs = Euro 27.78 Bn

I am not even considering weapons, training, upgrades etc ect

So take two figures and see how much basically MII pays Dassault, French economy (dassault pays taxes and also emplyees would be constantly exchanged on deputation) , OEMs, Supply chain folks and they paying taxes to French government.
Those 2 figures are 15.27+27.78 = Euro 43 Bn
You add more things and the figure will reach around Euro 50-55 Bn
Now Euro 45 Bn was the whole cost of Rafale development

Thats how strategic it is for everyone.
True we are playing both countries to get the best deal. But fact remains unless someone really does some nasty back stabbing, France should be able to convince Dassault and get them to follow the official line.

Personally i would rather want AMCA to have a not just FGFA tech but also Rafale tech. and for that FGFA if it comes HAL is there. But if Rafale does not come AMCA wont get that tech, reactor tech wont come, Barracuda tech wont come to SSN program, LCA Navy program gets delayed with no one helping us solve under carriage issues ad smart cities, investments and what not...

So its a golden egg laying goose.. don kill it .. simple..

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## Taygibay

Can someone help me move those 200 50kg bags of sodium chloride in Parik's garage, Please?



 Tay.

P.S.


Abingdonboy said:


> India is playing Russia and France against each other and it is heading for a conclusion,


Yup, it will end up forced to buy either ... once the other gives up.

When you ask for a friend's price and get it and then ask for cost and get it and then ask ...
you eventually end up with a laugh in your face and nothing in your hands.

There is a limit to any negotiation if the transaction seems out of reach.

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## PARIKRAMA

Taygibay said:


> Can someone help me move those 200 50kg bags of sodium chloride in Parik's garage, Please?



You are rubbing salt in my wounds !!! 

I am hurt !!! 

Sodium Chloride --- XXXXX

At least gift me something better..

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> If you see a basic math,


The logic of these things is always disarmingly simple but the media get themselves lost chasing their tails with figures. They never stop to ask the most fundamental questions.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Personally i would rather want AMCA to have a not just FGFA tech but also Rafale tech. and for that FGFA if it comes HAL is there. But if Rafale does not come AMCA wont get that tech, reactor tech wont come, Barracuda tech wont come to SSN program, LCA Navy program gets delayed with no one helping us solve under carriage issues ad smart cities, investments and what not...


As stated, India has more to gain with France then it does with Russia. Now, I don't know which side has intiated it but am I the only one that has noticed a descernable chill in Indo-Russian ties in the last 18 months? Modi has visited France 3 times, Doval has done so 4 times (that we know of), Hollande has visited India once, the French DM has visited 2/3 times etc. The Indo-Russian interaction by comparison has been minimal- almost on the level of Indo-UK interaction!


If I was going to place bets I would find it hard to beleive that Russia comes out the winner when pitted against France, the GoI doesn't even seem to be trying to play "fair" anymore- they have a predetermined "winner" and are getting all the ducks in a row now whilst the Russians scramble around.

France just needs to get Dassualt to tow the line, I would be rather amazed if they are able to dictate policy to their government or at least interfere to at a strategic level.

@Taygibay @Vauban @halloweene 


PARIKRAMA said:


> Thats how USD Ruble looks like. Ruble has devaluated so much that USD has run amok.
> 
> In simple words if in 2012 1st Jan the contratc of FGFA was estimated say at USD 25 Bn then in Rubles that was 802.875 Bn rubles.
> 
> Fast forward to present day say at 75.3835 exchange rate the ruble converted into USD is USD 10.65 Bn
> 
> Judging by talks of 12 Bn that could have happened in when USD/Ruble was in 66ish range and thats bang in December timeline when PM NaMo visited
> 
> And now talking USD 8 bn means two things.
> The whole cost for the program has been revised downward
> Second the cost of Ruble devaluation has helped it bring lower compared to 4 years back time.




Nice analysis bro! Indian media at its best.

And naturally the reality will be a bit more nuanced than that. The Indian side has some very shrewd negotiators so, say, what if the Indian side proposed 50% of the deal would be paid in USD and 50% in Rubles? As the above analysis doesn't take into account the true cost of the deal TO INDIA. As India's currency is not the USD but the Rupee which makes any Ruble/USD ER almost irrelevent. What you have to focus on is the relative Rupee ERs.

The Rupee/USD ER is at its highest for a while now whilst the Rupee/Ruble ER is rather favourable.


Anyway, I'm less and less convinced the FGFA will ever see the light of day now. It's 2016 now, the first FGFA prototype should have been in ASTE's hands almost 2 years ago, there is almost nothing to show as far as the FGFA project is concerned and it's ment to enter service in 6 years? Good luck with that! Russia has doubled down with the Su-35 and ordered more of them, clearly the plane the FGFA is meant to be a derivative of isn't itself coming anytime soon.

Even when Russia's economy was stagnating as opposed to in recession it was taking India for a ride, now its economy is in a tail spin how exactly do we expect the Russians to fund their share of the project? It's time India got itself away from being Russia's cash cow.

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## Nilgiri

Abingdonboy said:


> Of course, but it DOES have huge strategic implications. Mr Hollande made it clear that the Rafale's sale to India was a strategic deal and showcased the Indo-French deepening of ties. After both sides have placed so much emphasis on the Rafale deal specifically (Mr Hollande must have mentioned it 5-6 times during his remarks in the joint press conference with Modi) and the IGA has been announced, no Rafale deal now would be a consdierable dent to all future Indo-French strategic deals. This is a fact.
> 
> It's for this reason, I don't see the French backing down now- had the IGA not been signed I could see it but Hollande has put his cards on the table and he is behind the Rafale deal, Russia is going to lose this game and they are going to lose BIG. Think about the diveregence in reporting vis a vis strategic deals with India and Russia/France in the past few months, France has overwhelminginly hogged the limelight with a swathe of strategic deals being clinched, what has Russia got? The Ka-226s? All the hype before Modi's visit to Russia resulted in excatly ZERO strategic deals- no FGFA, no MRTA, no SSN, not even the Talwars.
> 
> India is playing Russia and France against each other and it is heading for a conclusion, Russia is now said to have revised (downwards) the FGFA's cost for India and France is still working on the Rafale price.
> 
> There's something brewing between India and Russia and it's not going to be pretty, this is a divorce that has been long overdue.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Levina @Parul @Vauban



I get what you are saying...but I don't think one or the other will suddenly be a huge crushing loser that will go into major sulking mode (we certainly don't want Russia to do that).

Both Russia and France have enough going on with India in many realms of economic activity that any final decision either way is going to be quite heavily mitigated...even if we are just talking about defense. S-400 and additional Scorpene for example.....not to mention the crucial overall engagement in energy and transport India has with any major economy.

Maybe Hollande has staked a lot more on this (Modi certainly hasnt, and Putin couldn't care less on a political level)...but the overall winner whatever the decisions taken...will be India since its clearly a buyers market given we can play and hedge with two major defence provider/developers here.

Let us wait and see of course.



Abingdonboy said:


> As India's currency is not the USD but the Rupee which makes any Ruble/USD ER almost irrelevent. What you have to focus on is the relative Rupee ERs.



Ruble has depreciated versus USD a lot lot more than INR has. So that means rubles have depreciated versus INR too.

Earlier One ruble bought 1.8 rupees.....now one ruble buys around 0.9 rupees.

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## Abingdonboy

Nilgiri said:


> I get what you are saying...but I don't think one or the other will suddenly be a huge crushing loser that will go into major sulking mode (we certainly don't want Russia to do that).
> 
> Both Russia and France have enough going on with India in many realms of economic activity that any final decision either way is going to be quite heavily mitigated...even if we are just talking about defense. S-400 and additional Scorpene for example.....not to mention the crucial overall engagement in energy and transport India has with any major economy.


I don't expect either side to go into "sulking mode", but I do see this deal as a litmus test and evidence of the fork in the road India has now come to. I think we can all agree that if India signs for 36 Rafales, it is effectively signing up for >150 and this is a HUGE commitment and would signal a strategic shift of India. This would open up a lot of other strategic avenues for India and France to commit to ie SSNs, aircraft carriers, 5th gen fighters, UCAVs etc etc.

If India doubles down and goes with Russia (FGFA in lieu of the Rafale) then the scope for deeper cooperation with France in parrell is severely negated.



Nilgiri said:


> Maybe Hollande has staked a lot more on this (Modi certainly hasnt, and Putin couldn't care less on a political level)...but the overall winner whatever the decisions taken


I don't think Modi has invest much politcal capital in this relationship either- foreign policy of GoIs (outside of Pakistan/China) is basically ignored by the Indian media/polical establishment. BUT, I think, personally, Modi has invested a lot in the Indo-French relationship. Smart cities and the solar alliance are both "pet" projects of his and are two areas France is workign with India deeply and as an aside, the largest single loco buy (infrastructure related) in India's recent histroy went to France (Alstom). 

I don't see any of this as a coincidence, Modi is well known as being a "hands on" leader who personally monitors infrastrucutre projects through the PMO, it would have been his nod that greenlit all of the above, and who did he choose? France.

Taking this "France vs Russia" discussion further, let's look at the Jaitpur plant. Every single non-Russian reactor made in India is a snub to Russia and their counter-offers, the Russians have offered to deliver all N-reactors to India that it could need but the fact that the GoI has now agreed on setting up the world's largest nuclear power station with FRANCE and not Russia is pretty telling in itself. 6 reactors in one go is more than Russia has secured with India.

What deals has Russia recieved or offered in comparison in the past 20 months? Outside of the Ka-226T deal I am really scratching my head. 

This is a pretty clear indication of where ties are headed IMHO...

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## dadeechi

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @knight11 @Nilgiri @cerberus @Spectre 


I agree with @Abingdonboy that Russia would loose this battle with France (FGFA vs RAFALE) and France has nothing to worry.

It's not that Russia has nothing to offer that India needs. There are many items like Nuke subs, ships, FGFA, Super Suhkois, S-400s, Nuclear reactors, Choppers, MTA, Tanks etc that are on table and Russia has been bending backwards to get these deals done.

The reason Russia is not able to close them is due to the fact that India currently being led by a west leaning government in BJP/Modi. Just look at the two chief guests that Modi had - 1st was Obama and the next was Hollande. Modi and Putin meetings took place ONLY because they were forced due to the institutionalized yearly summit meetings between the countries. If that was not the case the meetings would not have taken place in the first place

I am now waiting for the IAF to issue a statement that the is no Plan B for RAFALEs 



Taygibay said:


> Whoa! Keep calm and have a sip of context, Dadeechi my friend!
> 
> We stopped the delivery only after asking the client to stop attacking a rather neutral autonomous country
> on our common continent, offering a provision to re-activate the deal once this happened!
> Moscow chose to hunt for Mariupol instead; so not our circus anymore?
> You have nothing that compares on your continent. Think Japan refusing to sell you a signed deal mil ship
> because Dehli invaded Malaysia, incredibly hypothetical but somewhat in the same category.
> 
> The problem in that deal was present from inception, mate : Trying to sell a high value asset for expeditionary
> warfare to a non-ally ex-opponent with a proven record of invasion to helpless neighbours!
> Our NATO allies had griped about it as soon as it was revealed, before it was signed!
> Had those Mistrals been for India, that they'd have paraded on Republic day decked in Orange and Green!
> HUH?  m'well, not down the avenue but you get the idea ...
> 
> Good day all, Tay.



Was there an imminent threat to France? No

Was the contract already signed? Yes

Did France back out of the contract? Yes

All the things you have mentioned is just to mask the lost glory of France's Independent policy. France is going through a very bad economic patch and it would toe the NATO/EU line even if it is not in the best interest of France herself.

Don't get me wrong. India does trust France because of their historical support to India during the tough times when no other country has supported her. But there is strong apprehensiveness in Indian circles after the Mistral collapse. The ball is clearly in the French court to demonstrate to the world that France is back on the block with it's Independent foreign policy. Until then people would no longer take French seriously.

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## Taygibay

dadeechi said:


> Was there an imminent threat to France? No



No, but there was one for the EU as group. India is not part of a union with similar weight and obligations
so that you may not get this part. The EU interplay is complex. If we sell invasion type ships to a nation
that has an an on-going military interference in a case scenario that frightens allies ( Baltic states ),
we disappoint partners in a Europe that we'd want more autonomous on such matters.
- Build a Europe of defence, we're saying ... while we make cash arming your enemies!
It was political ruin to press on.




dadeechi said:


> Was the contract already signed? Yes



And as I said, *we offered a way out* : we suspended ( temporize if you will ) delivery first!
We said to Putin, if you stop helping in Donbass, we'll resume the contract. The Crimean nab
was not even challenged in that option.
He said : Russia does what it wants, flock the world! instead.




dadeechi said:


> Did France back out of the contract? Yes


Yes, after what I described above!




dadeechi said:


> All the things you have mentioned is just to mask the lost glory of France's Independent policy. France is going through a very bad economic patch and it would toe the NATO/EU line even if it is not in the best interest of France herself.



Wrong! Very wrong! France's Independent policy has been on the rise anew since 1994 ( see if you know why? ).

Check who was tasked autonomously and outside Blue Helmets mandates by the UN in fixing conflicts!

Who put the veto down to America concerning Iraq 2003 but still came to help the Iraqi government today?

Who refused NATO article 5 and activated 42.7 of the EU foreign policy council instead? And why?

Who can ( usefully ) align with both Western US-UK-EU and alternative powers like India while respecting both?

I usually like your stuff but in this instance, you seem to miss a lot of wider considerations, no offence meant.





dadeechi said:


> Don't get me wrong. India does trust France because of their historical support to India during the tough times when no other country has supported her. But there is strong apprehensiveness in Indian circles after the Mistral collapse.


If they can't differentiate between hegemonic Russia and emerging India as nations & associated behaviour,
nor between Putin and Modi as men and so don't get we can act accordingly depending on case ...
honestly, it's their problem; I just don't care! I'm a no trust no deal type of person anyway; suits me fine!




dadeechi said:


> The ball is clearly in the French court to demonstrate to the world that France is back on the block with it's Independent foreign policy. Until then people would no longer take French seriously.


Then don't! Stick by your appraisal! We can't be taken seriously? Just dump us! We'll then sell to China ...
and respect that deal unlike the Slavic one  How would that help Bharat is beyond me though!  


No hard feelings, Dadeechi buddy but that opinion is so full of holes and apparently skin-deep / allergic reaction
over reasoned analysis that I could not answer nicer. I really hope an aspirin and a nap will fix it!

Sorry for that exchange, Tay.

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## dadeechi

Taygibay said:


> No, but there was one for the EU as group. India is not part of a union with similar weight and obligations
> so that you may not get this part. The EU interplay is complex. If we sell invasion type ships to a nation
> that has an an on-going military interference in a case scenario that frightens allies ( Baltic states ),
> we disappoint partners in a Europe that we'd want more autonomous on such matters.
> - Build a Europe of defence, we're saying ... while we make cash arming your enemies!
> It was political ruin to press on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And as I said, *we offered a way out* : we suspended ( temporize if you will ) delivery first!
> We said to Putin, if you stop helping in Donbass, we'll resume the contract. The Crimean nab
> was not even challenged in that option.
> He said : Russia does what it wants, flock the world! instead.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, after what I described above!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong! Very wrong! France's Independent policy has been on the rise anew since 1994 ( see if you know why? ).
> 
> Check who was tasked autonomously and outside Blue Helmets mandates by the UN in fixing conflicts!
> 
> Who put the veto down to America concerning Iraq 2003 but still came to help the Iraqi government today?
> 
> Who refused NATO article 5 and activated 42.7 of the EU foreign policy council instead? And why?
> 
> Who can ( usefully ) align with both Western US-UK-EU and alternative powers like India while respecting both?
> 
> I usually like your stuff but in this instance, you seem to miss a lot of wider considerations, no offence meant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If they can't differentiate between hegemonic Russia and emerging India as nations & associated behaviour,
> nor between Putin and Modi as men and so don't get we can act accordingly depending on case ...
> honestly, it's their problem; I just don't care! I'm a no trust no deal type of person anyway; suits me fine!
> 
> 
> 
> Then don't! Stick by your appraisal! We can't be taken seriously? Just dump us! We'll then sell to China ...
> and respect that deal unlike the Slavic one  How would that help Bharat is beyond me though!
> 
> 
> No hard feelings, Dadeechi buddy but that opinion is so full of holes and apparently skin-deep / allergic reaction
> over reasoned analysis that I could not answer nicer. I really hope an aspirin and a nap will fix it!
> 
> Sorry for that exchange, Tay.





The key question is, was the Mistral fiasco due EU or NATO? You seem to indicate that it is due to EU but the world at large believes it to be due to NATO. If Russia was opposed to EU's economic integration why would it lay so many pipelines to supply gas to EU. Russia even desired to be part of EU like rest of the former Warsaw pact countries but EU did not entertain her request.

http://www.ictsd.org/bridges-news/bridges/news/russia-aiming-for-wto-eu-membership

Offering a work around does not demonstrate independent policy. After the 1998 nuclear tests even US offered proposals to remove the sanctions on India.

So if India goes for another thermonuclear test you seem to indicate that apart from US, France would also offer a way out. How does that help from India's perspective? If US & France act the same way what is the incentive for India in engaging both of them?

The only reason India is rapidly moving towards the west is due to increased Chinese influence in Russia. India can no longer count on Russia for support. But after the Mistral fiasco, India realized that it cannot rely on France either.

India is truly in a very dire situation with no major power supporting it today. Hence it is diversifying the business to as many countries as possible to mitigate the risk.

Unfortunately, the more I respond the more it seems like I am against US or France. Nothing can be further from the truth.

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## Taygibay

No, I don't think you are anti-anything due to your stance, mate!
I simply think that this is entirely wrong and not the view of GoI :


dadeechi said:


> But after the Mistral fiasco, India realized that it cannot rely on France either.


Again, if what you write above was true, why pick Rafale when MMRCA was dead anyhow?
Did Modi not know when he came to Paris how the Mistrals' sale had unfolded?
If everyone agrees to your point, what of Egypt and Qatar? Idiots I suppose?
Heck, we signed an agreement with Moscow solving the financial dispute you know?
And the Russians wisely jumped on the chance to sell Ka-52s to Cairo?

The impression that could appear of anti-whatever is simply due to your position being erroneous ...
and thus untenable! If your desist from it, the sky will clear up, promised!

Peace out buddy, no one is angry at you, Tay.

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## PARIKRAMA

@Taygibay @Vauban @Abingdonboy @cerberus @anant_s @halloweene

I am hearing some strange buzz..
See Rafale initially went with M88-2 before switching to M88-4E which helped in improve reliability and serviceability by modifications to the high-pressure compressor and turbine.
M88-2/4E comes with standard 50 kN (5,100 kgp / 11,240 lbf) dry thrust and 75 kN (7,645 kgp / 16,860 lbf).

But in between Safran also made one more variant called M88-3 which needed a larger air intake but which would have 90 kN (9,175 kgp / ~20,000 lbf) after burning thrust but new intakes can be retrofitted to older aircraft with little difficulty.
The fuel consumption it seems remained same but serviceability and reliability was same as M88-2 but below M88-4E

What M88-3 is touted with a new compressor and a variable stage, reducing fuel consumption. The M88-3, initially designated M88 ECO, can be operated at two ratings, 20,000 and 17,000 lbs of thrust. The lower thrust rating is provided to increase mean time between overhauls and to reduce parts wear.

Now comes the *"magical part"*
The Safran team has said that with almost same equivalent reliability of M88-4E and meantimes between overhauls plus lower wear and tear, a new compressor can be introduced in M88-4E using the knowledge gained from M88-3 program.

The result is around 85-86 Kn after burn thrust but with same SFC as 4E. This implies 13%-14% increase in thrust without compromising in SFC/Fuel consumption and does not require a air intake widening.

This is the customized version offered to India and thus requires the cream of development cost in customization.

The result of course is DA along with French government asking for a clear cut big order confirmation and GOI/MOD saying possible under MII.

The twist now:
The new India specific engine negotiations began last July/August 2015 and needed a total of 28-30 months of development time. IAF when it was told this development insisted they want this engine right from first Rafale and thus this customization became part of flyaway deal. The earlier cost was pegged at almost Euro 3.5-4Bn for this new engine but now with both governments agreeing, the cost is approximated at Euro 0.95 Bn -1 Bn.

This is probably why the first Rafale delivery with new engines will begin at around 30-36 months from contract signage.

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## halloweene

PARIKRAMA said:


> You are rubbing salt in my wounds !!!
> 
> I am hurt !!!
> 
> Sodium Chloride --- XXXXX
> 
> At least gift me something better..


Ammonium chloride + sugar +peroxyde + nitrous oxdye (so as to absorb water) would fit you?



PARIKRAMA said:


> @Taygibay @Vauban @Abingdonboy @cerberus @anant_s @halloweene
> 
> I am hearing some strange buzz..
> See Rafale initially went with M88-2 before switching to M88-4E which helped in improve reliability and serviceability by modifications to the high-pressure compressor and turbine.
> M88-2/4E comes with standard 50 kN (5,100 kgp / 11,240 lbf) dry thrust and 75 kN (7,645 kgp / 16,860 lbf).
> 
> But in between Safran also made one more variant called M88-3 which needed a larger air intake but which would have 90 kN (9,175 kgp / ~20,000 lbf) after burning thrust but new intakes can be retrofitted to older aircraft with little difficulty.
> The fuel consumption it seems remained same but serviceability and reliability was same as M88-2 but below M88-4E
> 
> What M88-3 is touted with a new compressor and a variable stage, reducing fuel consumption. The M88-3, initially designated M88 ECO, can be operated at two ratings, 20,000 and 17,000 lbs of thrust. The lower thrust rating is provided to increase mean time between overhauls and to reduce parts wear.
> 
> Now comes the *"magical part"*
> The Safran team has said that with almost same equivalent reliability of M88-4E and meantimes between overhauls plus lower wear and tear, a new compressor can be introduced in M88-4E using the knowledge gained from M88-3 program.
> 
> The result is around 85-86 Kn after burn thrust but with same SFC as 4E. This implies 13%-14% increase in thrust without compromising in SFC/Fuel consumption and does not require a air intake widening.
> 
> This is the customized version offered to India and thus requires the cream of development cost in customization.
> 
> The result of course is DA along with French government asking for a clear cut big order confirmation and GOI/MOD saying possible under MII.
> 
> The twist now:
> The new India specific engine negotiations began last July/August 2015 and needed a total of 28-30 months of development time. IAF when it was told this development insisted they want this engine right from first Rafale and thus this customization became part of flyaway deal. The earlier cost was pegged at almost Euro 3.5-4Bn for this new engine but now with both governments agreeing, the cost is approximated at Euro 0.95 Bn -1 Bn.
> 
> This is probably why the first Rafale delivery with new engines will begin at around 30-36 months from contract signage.


AFAIK using new engine hotparts. No clue

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## Taygibay

As far as is being discussed around ( I.E. truth value impossible to weigh but not outlandish ),

_forget the full trust of the 9T M-88 because that includes a re-design of front-central part and the
fluid shape of that bird should not be touched_

_but yes add some advances the program provided and induce them to existing original M-88s to
gain +-11% thrust without other changes maintaining relatively _iso-_ECO standards and so TCO./

The idea is rumoured to be emanating from Safran, _tiens, tiens!_ and is a valid point if proven by which
an OEM maker meliorates its offer inside the lifetime use of one its product hoping to recoup through
the added value of the replacement kits some unpaid prospective development funding.
I don't see a problem if it comes to pass as it is this rarest of birds nowadays, a good MIC move ... but
don't expect a short-time table like 6 months.
If you mean will India profit from it, the answer is almost certainly yes considering the 24-36 months window
of the present-future deal especially if it is already understood that numbers are to be added to later ...

& the work to kit the upgrade on or near the 2 planned IAF Rafale centres might be part of Safran's offsets?

My hope is that it forces our Prez/Assemblée/MinDef to have it retro-mounted on the whole Fr fleet!
Go Safran, go! 

Great evening PariK, Halloweene & all, Tay.

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## anant_s

interesting information @PARIKRAMA 
i wish to know how they have improved reliability. Is it by increasing Mean Time Between Failure and thereby reducing (as they call in our part of world) Return back to Maintenance Depot frequecy.
Also any info on how much time is required for schedule maintenance.
All these factors influence the flying cost and ultimately impact life cycle cost.
With news that India is demanding high availability, these things assume importance.
@Taygibay @halloweene @Abingdonboy @Vauban

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## Oracle 33

Abingdonboy said:


> I don't expect either side to go into "sulking mode", but I do see this deal as a litmus test and evidence of the fork in the road India has now come to. I think we can all agree that if India signs for 36 Rafales, it is effectively signing up for >150 and this is a HUGE commitment and would signal a strategic shift of India. This would open up a lot of other strategic avenues for India and France to commit to ie SSNs, aircraft carriers, 5th gen fighters, UCAVs etc etc.
> 
> If India doubles down and goes with Russia (FGFA in lieu of the Rafale) then the scope for deeper cooperation with France in parrell is severely negated.
> 
> 
> I don't think Modi has invest much politcal capital in this relationship either- foreign policy of GoIs (outside of Pakistan/China) is basically ignored by the Indian media/polical establishment. BUT, I think, personally, Modi has invested a lot in the Indo-French relationship. Smart cities and the solar alliance are both "pet" projects of his and are two areas France is workign with India deeply and as an aside, the largest single loco buy (infrastructure related) in India's recent histroy went to France (Alstom).
> 
> I don't see any of this as a coincidence, Modi is well known as being a "hands on" leader who personally monitors infrastrucutre projects through the PMO, it would have been his nod that greenlit all of the above, and who did he choose? France.
> 
> Taking this "France vs Russia" discussion further, let's look at the Jaitpur plant. Every single non-Russian reactor made in India is a snub to Russia and their counter-offers, the Russians have offered to deliver all N-reactors to India that it could need but the fact that the GoI has now agreed on setting up the world's largest nuclear power station with FRANCE and not Russia is pretty telling in itself. 6 reactors in one go is more than Russia has secured with India.
> 
> What deals has Russia recieved or offered in comparison in the past 20 months? Outside of the Ka-226T deal I am really scratching my head.
> 
> This is a pretty clear indication of where ties are headed IMHO...




You underestimate the crucial energy deals that have been struck in the last 6 months between India and Russia. Do not forget Russia has the raw materials we need and something France can never provide.


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## Nilgiri

Oracle 33 said:


> You underestimate the crucial energy deals that have been struck in the last 6 months between India and Russia.



Why exactly have they been stuck? Pricing (due to massive decrease in prices)?


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## Oracle 33

Nilgiri said:


> Why exactly have they been stuck? Pricing (due to massive decrease in prices)?



Negotiations take time, the buyer wants the best deal and the seller to make the most profit that is the business world. What you are seeing now is the final phase in pricing and each side wants the best deal.

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## Nilgiri

Oracle 33 said:


> Negotiations take time, the buyer wants the best deal and the seller to make the most profit that is the business world. What you are seeing now is the final phase in pricing and each side wants the best deal.



Yes but right now energy is a buyers market. So India can afford to let such deals drag on longer than Russia can (which has lost almost half of its GDP in dollar terms because of the energy price crunch). I guess lets wait and see. Do you have any links for the estimated size of these deals?

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## Oracle 33

Nilgiri said:


> Yes but right now energy is a buyers market. So India can afford to let such deals drag on longer than Russia can (which has lost almost half of its GDP in dollar terms because of the energy price crunch). I guess lets wait and see. Do you have any links for the estimated size of these deals?



It's more complicated than this, yes oil prices are low but who is going to sell you key stakes? Stakes are strategic in nature and remember oil prices will rise in the future. India has recently obtained a 15% stake in a Russian project and is negotiating another stake in Russia's biggest oil reserve.

I would post the links but I am using my mobile but just Google it

The 15% recent stake was for $1.5 bn though

My guess is €9bn the final contract but maybe €8.5bn we can aim for.

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## Nilgiri

Oracle 33 said:


> It's more complicated than this, yes oil prices are low but who is going to sell you key stakes? Stakes are strategic in nature and remember oil prices will rise in the future. India has recently obtained a 15% stake in a Russian project and is negotiating another stake in Russia's biggest oil reserve.
> 
> I would post the links but I am using my mobile but just Google it
> 
> The 15% recent stake was for $1.5 bn though
> 
> My guess is €9bn the final contract but maybe €8.5bn we can aim for.



Thanks bro. What is your field of expertise...is it related to this sector?

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## Oracle 33

Nilgiri said:


> Thanks bro. What is your field of expertise...is it related to this sector?



I have been working with tenders for over 15 years both in software and the telecoms industry but we have clients in every industry sector such as the oil/gas industry.

IAF should have bought the mirage 2000 production line but alas perhaps due to finance or decision making things never transpired.

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## Nilgiri

Oracle 33 said:


> IAF should have bought the mirage 2000 production line but alas perhaps due to finance or decision making things never transpired.



One of the biggest (yet underrated) policy disasters in recent times for Indian defence sector.

It was not finance related at all seeing how much we are now going to be coughing out. Things were going quite swimmingly fiscally during 2004 onwards, all that was needed was some pragmatic common sense and foresight. We coulda been churning out those bad boys by the hundreds now to make up any shortfall...and introduce LCA at some point efficiently as well.

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## Oracle 33

Nilgiri said:


> One of the biggest (yet underrated) policy disasters in recent times for Indian defence sector.
> 
> It was not finance related at all seeing how much we are now going to be coughing out. Things were going quite swimmingly fiscally during 2004 onwards, all that was needed was some pragmatic common sense and foresight. We coulda been churning out those bad boys by the hundreds now to make up any shortfall...and introduce LCA at some point efficiently as well.



I guess we live and learn (or we should) I was reading recently that the Chinese have started to employ engineers from the west to work on their jet engines. Why India can't adopt fresh ideas and get the best brains we can? Nobody is going to give us things like crystal blade tech so we need to think outside the box a little.

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## Nilgiri

Oracle 33 said:


> I guess we live and learn (or we should) I was reading recently that the Chinese have started to employ engineers from the west to work on their jet engines. Why India can't adopt fresh ideas and get the best brains we can? Nobody is going to give us things like crystal blade tech so we need to think outside the box a little.



For that we need one of two things (or both preferably):

a) Sufficient economic margins to lower opportunity cost (we are still not there for things like jet engines, by default)

b) Strong willingness to sacrifice/invest to gain long term. This can temporarily solve a) if done in a well managed way. India does this already in certain areas....but for jet engine we need to increase several fold to get an organisation like GTRE to act in better concert with private production entities capable of executing efficiently. This needs DRDO to be reformed and excellent bureaucracy and leadership along the lines found in ISRO.

Single crystal blade tech is already done in India....the technology itself has been around since before world war 2 (the main issue lies with efficient production and quality control - both of which can be easily achieved with relatively minimal RnD).

The crucial issues lie with superalloy composition and the manufacturing techniques regarding casting and forging. Even in my company (PW), no one person knows every single detail, high tech know how is quite compartmentalised for protecting IP and trade secrets. When you get physically import people, you have to start from scratch and ground up all over again (even if you import a whole dedicated team)....so it may save you a few years....but it will end up costing roughly the same resources. Thats why the Chinese are still having many problems and will continue to have such problems for some time yet...the gap will narrow quite slowly because materials science is a tricky mistress in the long run with no real short cuts. I know this firsthand, I have been to our facility in Chengdu China...and I saw just how careful PW in allowing only the relatively well known technologies to be operationalised there for supply chains (blisks, LP compressors, combustors etc).

Once Indian market is big enough and there is more manufacturing taking place within India, same thing will naturally happen there. I think in the coming 10 years or so, there will be much expansion in transport propulsion technologies in India....provided Skill India and Make in India programs are at least 50% successful. But real top notch RnD to completely be on the cutting edge will take a full generation I think.

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## Oracle 33

Nilgiri said:


> For that we need one of two things (or both preferably):
> 
> a) Sufficient economic margins to lower opportunity cost (we are still not there for things like jet engines, by default)
> 
> b) Strong willingness to sacrifice/invest to gain long term. This can temporarily solve a) if done in a well managed way. India does this already in certain areas....but for jet engine we need to increase several fold to get an organisation like GTRE to act in better concert with private production entities capable of executing efficiently. This needs DRDO to be reformed and excellent bureaucracy and leadership along the lines found in ISRO.
> 
> Single crystal blade tech is already done in India....the technology itself has been around since before world war 2 (the main issue lies with efficient production and quality control - both of which can be easily achieved with relatively minimal RnD).
> 
> The crucial issues lie with superalloy composition and the manufacturing techniques regarding casting and forging. Even in my company (PW), no one person knows every single detail, high tech know how is quite compartmentalised for protecting IP and trade secrets. When you get physically import people, you have to start from scratch and ground up all over again (even if you import a whole dedicated team)....so it may save you a few years....but it will end up costing roughly the same resources. Thats why the Chinese are still having many problems and will continue to have such problems for some time yet...the gap will narrow quite slowly because materials science is a tricky mistress in the long run with no real short cuts. I know this firsthand, I have been to our facility in Chengdu China...and I saw just how careful PW in allowing only the relatively well known technologies to be operationalised there for supply chains (blisks, LP compressors, combustors etc).
> 
> Once Indian market is big enough and there is more manufacturing taking place within India, same thing will naturally happen there. I think in the coming 10 years or so, there will be much expansion in transport propulsion technologies in India....provided Skill India and Make in India programs are at least 50% successful. But real top notch RnD to completely be on the cutting edge will take a full generation I think.




Some good points but the Chinese have also been rather successful in hacking defence sites to extract key data as well as bribing. There was a famous case of a Indian American scientist who they bribed to obtain some classified information. Also the way they are gobbling up commercial companies in the west such as the recent German firm will have spin off benefits for their defence industry.

They bought a single SU-33 from Ukraine to reverse engineer it and this is the type of tactics they will use. Being a little cunning has its benefits but drawbacks too as witnessed by their quality.

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## Nilgiri

Oracle 33 said:


> Some good points but the Chinese have also been rather successful in hacking defence sites to extract key data as well as bribing. There was a famous case of a Indian American scientist who they bribed to obtain some classified information. Also the way they are gobbling up commercial companies in the west such as the recent German firm will have spin off benefits for their defence industry.



Yes I am well aware of the B-2 NG engineer of Indian descent that passed on information to them. But that info was not the inner workings of a jet engine. But still you have a fair point. Of course their acquisitions, skill import etc will all have an impact in the years to come on their capabilities....but thats because they now have strong economic margins to do this. India is not there, we will have to pick and choose and prioritise for now till we are outputting 10 million or so good paying "generic" skilled jobs every year for many many years and beyond (instead of the traditional 200k or less....which only recently increased to 500k in 2015). Then the margins will be there to do the same for whatever high technology is strongly required by the society.



Oracle 33 said:


> They bought a single SU-33 from Ukraine to reverse engineer it and this is the type of tactics they will use. Being a little cunning has its benefits but drawbacks too as witnessed by their quality.



Reverse engineering itself is quite difficult and gives only certain results...when it comes to jet engines....especially if you choose Russian/Ukrainian (former USSR) jet engine tech. Thats why you can see them always preferring western tech and know how...because thats where the forefront is in this sector and incorporating organically in the RnD process rather than just trying to copy what you get put in front of you. Same will go for India.

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## cerberus

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @MilSpec 
Seems Kuwait is Buying Just 28 Eurofighter At €8 billion (US $8.7 billion)
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ce-kuwait-sign-deal-28-eurofighters/79394322/

9 Billion For 36 Rafale Seems Fair To me Now 
your take Guys

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## Nilgiri

cerberus said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @MilSpec
> Seems Kuwait is Buying Just 28 Eurofighter At €8 billion (US $8.7 billion)
> http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ce-kuwait-sign-deal-28-eurofighters/79394322/
> 
> 9 Billion For 36 Rafale Seems Fair To me Now
> your take Guys



People think French are charging more to India out of the blue. It is the standard complete life cycle cost for plane of that generation.

The problem lies with the original MMRCA contract not defining the contract size by total life cycle cost but initial hardware acquisition/production cost....so there are two differing definitions that people think are apples to apples.

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## ultron

Too expensive. Better to go for Su-35S.

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## Abingdonboy

cerberus said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @MilSpec
> Seems Kuwait is Buying Just 28 Eurofighter At €8 billion (US $8.7 billion)
> http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ce-kuwait-sign-deal-28-eurofighters/79394322/
> 
> 9 Billion For 36 Rafale Seems Fair To me Now
> your take Guys


Who's surprised? Not me. Maybe all these clowns going around trying to paint a picture of the French being schemers trying to rob India blind and asking for a price that has no link to intrinsic value.

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## Abingdonboy

ultron said:


> Too expensive. Better to go for Su-35S.


Not interested.


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## airmarshal

Thats toooo long and as I said before in one of the other Rafale threads, too few for a country the size of India. 

Egypt getting 24. They already have the second tranche. So go figure!


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## Levina

Abingdonboy said:


> he is behind the Rafale deal,


Let's face it.
France has declared economic emergency, mounting debt and unemployment has kept the French on the edge. Defence industry is their only hope. They need to close this deal even if it means lesser profit.
This has been called the "mother of all defence deals" for no reason. 
Our relations with Russia are cordial as of now, and Indian govt will maintain the status quo...or so I assume.

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## MilSpec

Levina said:


> Let's face it.
> France has declared economic emergency, mounting debt and unemployment has kept the French on the edge. Defence industry is their only hope. They need to close this deal even if it means lesser profit.
> This has been called the "mother of all defence deals" for no reason.
> Our relations with Russia are cordial as of now, and Indian govt will maintain the status quo...or so I assume.





cerberus said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @MilSpec
> Seems Kuwait is Buying Just 28 Eurofighter At €8 billion (US $8.7 billion)
> http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ce-kuwait-sign-deal-28-eurofighters/79394322/
> 
> 9 Billion For 36 Rafale Seems Fair To me Now
> your take Guys





Nilgiri said:


> People think French are charging more to India out of the blue. It is the standard complete life cycle cost for plane of that generation.
> 
> The problem lies with the original MMRCA contract not defining the contract size by total life cycle cost but initial hardware acquisition/production cost....so there are two differing definitions that people think are apples to apples.





Abingdonboy said:


> Who's surprised? Not me. Maybe all these clowns going around trying to paint a picture of the French being schemers trying to rob India blind and asking for a price that has no link to intrinsic value.



yeah, I still don't buy the life cycle costs.

PLM costs for any product includes the capital acquisition cost along with the operating costs. Operating costs includes costs of spares (gaskets, mounts, inspection hardware ndt ), maintenance costs (dismounting engines, reworking actuators, calibration of sensors, calibration of servos, calibration of transducers) , cost of consumables (hydraulic fluids, alternator service, air filters, aeroduct hoses, brake liners etc), service costs (training, ground equipment, device level trouble shooting, replacement of components)

there is no way that DB, IAF or MOD could have pinpointed the initial + associated operating costs to pinpoint this 9 billion,

I think the intial acquisition cost is around 68-72 million - which btw is exceptionally high - given the MKI is around 52 mil.

I do not buy this PLM cost unless DB takes the entire responsibility operating costs, pays for all MRO stores, completely pays for all technician training and certifications. And if the operating costs are based of of what French airforce has been seeing for thier own fleet, they cannot juxtapose those costs to India and ask us to pay for it. It is not an apple to apple comparison. And in that case they need to submit cost of all consumables, all spares, all replacabe components, and those payments do not need to happen until those services are delivered.

When you buy a car you do not pay for next 20 oil changes, 24 sets of tires, 16 brake liners, 20 gallons of oil, 3 sets of radiators, 4 expansion tanks, and upper/lower hoses, fan clutches , thermostats etc. You pay for the car, get a few free services and set up a TPM regime, and you know what the cost is based on the spares and services. A totyota corolla will cost you less to maintain than a Bentley GT, but you know that before hand , as the cost of these spares are known. Same applies here, cost of spares are known, you can estimate thos costs and account for operating costs but YOU DO NOT PAY THAT TO DASSAULT UPFRONT.

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## Oracle 33

MilSpec said:


> yeah, I still don't buy the life cycle costs.
> 
> PLM costs for any product includes the capital acquisition cost along with the operating costs. Operating costs includes costs of spares (gaskets, mounts, inspection hardware ndt ), maintenance costs (dismounting engines, reworking actuators, calibration of sensors, calibration of servos, calibration of transducers) , cost of consumables (hydraulic fluids, alternator service, air filters, aeroduct hoses, brake liners etc), service costs (training, ground equipment, device level trouble shooting, replacement of components)
> 
> there is no way that DB, IAF or MOD could have pinpointed the initial + associated operating costs to pinpoint this 9 billion,
> 
> I think the intial acquisition cost is around 68-72 million - which btw is exceptionally high - given the MKI is around 52 mil.
> 
> I do not buy this PLM cost unless DB takes the entire responsibility operating costs, pays for all MRO stores, completely pays for all technician training and certifications. And if the operating costs are based of of what French airforce has been seeing for thier own fleet, they cannot juxtapose those costs to India and ask us to pay for it. It is not an apple to apple comparison. And in that case they need to submit cost of all consumables, all spares, all replacabe components, and those payments do not need to happen until those services are delivered.
> 
> When you buy a car you do not pay for next 20 oil changes, 24 sets of tires, 16 brake liners, 20 gallons of oil, 3 sets of radiators, 4 expansion tanks, and upper/lower hoses, fan clutches , thermostats etc. You pay for the car, get a few free services and set up a TPM regime, and you know what the cost is based on the spares and services. A totyota corolla will cost you less to maintain than a Bentley GT, but you know that before hand , as the cost of these spares are known. Same applies here, cost of spares are known, you can estimate thos costs and account for operating costs but YOU DO NOT PAY THAT TO DASSAULT UPFRONT.



I thought we are paying half up front at the moment?

Checkout the UK-Saudi Eurofighter deal it included training, spares, weapons, etc all negotiated prior to signing


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## PARIKRAMA

*Hearing some buzz*
++

The price negotiations from Indian side has led to few points of change in terms of customization
Indian side has decided to give up AshM integration of Harpoons and Brahmos for the time being. DA has instead offered Exocet which MOD is finally considering.
The integration of Astra BVR may include potential hiccups. The present seeker is Russian in Origin and the new Ku Band seeker is suppose to be tested this year or next. 
This implies the present Astra missile integration needs source code and other help from Russian side which increases cost not only at DA end but also needs some payment for the codes at Russian end.
The new customization package cost it seems has reduced to almost Euro 1.2-1.3 Bn down from earlier Euro 2 Bn
The jets + weapons package is now negotiated at Euro 3.6 Bn
The infrastructure, support, spares, training, TCO, etc etc all put together is approximated at around Euro 3.4 Bn
So Total approx cost is around Euro (3.6+3.4+1.3) = Euro 8.3 Bn approx or Rs 59,800 Crs or USD 9 Bn
There are scope for further cutting of approx ~ Euro 1.3 if a base is reduced from 2 to 1
The other aspect of negotiations seems to be

DM MP wants DA to come down from earlier price quote of Euro 11 Bn to this final offer from Indian side
MP says if DA comes down after seeing the scope of further business in MII and follow on 18 options, then the engine customization is a go ahead or else that may be dropped too.
That may reduce the price by another Euro 0.7 Bn and save about Rs 5000 Crs.
A single base of operations would indicate the final confirmation that its only 36 Jets nothing more.
The repercussions seems to be that India may finally either freeze at just 36 with major focus to avoid even buying these 36 jets if DA does not comes to understand the joint view point of Indian and French Governments
DM MP is a bit upset that inspite of making a provision of 50% upfront payment rather than making 15% upfront and next 35% over 4 years as per delivery and work completion, DA does not seems to appreciate that GOI is keen to facilitate them setting up MII part in offsets as well as giving them abundant support financially.
DM MP has briefed PM NaMo all this and has also discussed a plan that owing to delay in FGFA project, if Rafale deal does not conclude within the shortest possible time with clarity of MII part, MOD will be forced to order 4-5 squadrons of SU 30 MKI from Nashik Plant. This is to address sqds depletion.
Also a new strategy of just hi end and low end mix will be made once and for all to replace hi-med-lo basis of strategy. 
That would also mean GOI will invest for 2nd line in pvt sector themselves partly for their requirements of LCA in nos.
India is not officially looking at Naval FGFA, hence IN will have to opt for either Mig29Ks or look for another fighter other than Rafale M/Rafale which is the first choice atm for IN's ambitious plan of CATOBAR and shore based patrolling roles for the future. (F35 will come in sureshot instead of Rafale M)

*+++*
@Abingdonboy @anant_s @cerberus @Vauban @Taygibay @MilSpec
Seems finally strong negotiations techniques. DM MP is clear about everything.. He just does nt want only 36 but rather the whole MII part and hence is negotiating lot more with clarity.

Now its true that DA being a private entity will think about profits but it does mean it will lose out an opportunity for the whole deal if DA does not support DM and PM vision for MII and affordability part.

If you understand the basic structure source says the original 108+18+63 has effectively become 90+36+45+18 = thats the structure for IAF and for IN its 60+30 = 90 structure in tranche 1. Tranche 2 based on Shore based patrol approval and take over from IAF roles will be much larger than this but will come in much later stage..

So DM MP is clear if DA does not budge and is looking at only corporate profit, it will lose everything asap.

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## MilSpec

PARIKRAMA said:


> This implies the present Astra missile integration needs source code and other help from Russian side which increases cost not only at DA end but also needs some payment for the codes at Russian end.
> *+++*
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @cerberus @Vauban @Taygibay @MilSpec
> .



That is not how missile integration works.
There is no source code for identifying missile like a driver for new hardware on system. It rather needs an adapter to read the bus address for the device which can be any device, if the mission computer is incapable of reading function blocks and resource blocks in the remote station. which can be a jammer, missile, targeting pod, pgm, ashm, flares, recce cameras etc. much like integrating a VFD or a transducer on a PLC. The fundamental logic remains the same. Remember R27ER was qualified on the mirages, so were derby on the MKI. much like a 1553 module where Bus Controller (BC) controlling multiple Remote Terminals (RT) all connected together by a data bus providing a single data path between the Bus Controller and all the associated Remote Terminals. Or in some cases a FFLD styled daisy chained network with device layer protection as seen in industrial protocols like foundation field bus and Multi drop Hart. I don't have any details on how the Mission computers architecture works on a rafale, but I can assure you there is no software source code fix for it, it needs proper interfacing to read all the device block at the remote (pylon) terminals like it's resource blocks (remember fox 1 jamming on a f16 during final fight in independence day movie), foundation block (to provide active passive tracking), Digi/An -input block to to provide the targetting parameters, in some cases even setting up proximity switch (radar /laser) or self destruct modes.

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## anant_s

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Hearing some buzz*
> ++
> 
> The price negotiations from Indian side has led to few points of change in terms of customization
> Indian side has decided to give up AshM integration of Harpoons and Brahmos for the time being. DA has instead offered Exocet which MOD is finally considering.
> The integration of Astra BVR may include potential hiccups. The present seeker is Russian in Origin and the new Ku Band seeker is suppose to be tested this year or next.
> This implies the present Astra missile integration needs source code and other help from Russian side which increases cost not only at DA end but also needs some payment for the codes at Russian end.
> The new customization package cost it seems has reduced to almost Euro 1.2-1.3 Bn down from earlier Euro 2 Bn
> The jets + weapons package is now negotiated at Euro 3.6 Bn
> The infrastructure, support, spares, training, TCO, etc etc all put together is approximated at around Euro 3.4 Bn
> So Total approx cost is around Euro (3.6+3.4+1.3) = Euro 8.3 Bn approx or Rs 59,800 Crs or USD 9 Bn
> There are scope for further cutting of approx ~ Euro 1.3 if a base is reduced from 2 to 1
> The other aspect of negotiations seems to be
> 
> DM MP wants DA to come down from earlier price quote of Euro 11 Bn to this final offer from Indian side
> MP says if DA comes down after seeing the scope of further business in MII and follow on 18 options, then the engine customization is a go ahead or else that may be dropped too.
> That may reduce the price by another Euro 0.7 Bn and save about Rs 5000 Crs.
> A single base of operations would indicate the final confirmation that its only 36 Jets nothing more.
> The repercussions seems to be that India may finally either freeze at just 36 with major focus to avoid even buying these 36 jets if DA does not comes to understand the joint view point of Indian and French Governments
> DM MP is a bit upset that inspite of making a provision of 50% upfront payment rather than making 15% upfront and next 35% over 4 years as per delivery and work completion, DA does not seems to appreciate that GOI is keen to facilitate them setting up MII part in offsets as well as giving them abundant support financially.
> DM MP has briefed PM NaMo all this and has also discussed a plan that owing to delay in FGFA project, if Rafale deal does not conclude within the shortest possible time with clarity of MII part, MOD will be forced to order 4-5 squadrons of SU 30 MKI from Nashik Plant. This is to address sqds depletion.
> Also a new strategy of just hi end and low end mix will be made once and for all to replace hi-med-lo basis of strategy.
> That would also mean GOI will invest for 2nd line in pvt sector themselves partly for their requirements of LCA in nos.
> India is not officially looking at Naval FGFA, hence IN will have to opt for either Mig29Ks or look for another fighter other than Rafale M/Rafale which is the first choice atm for IN's ambitious plan of CATOBAR and shore based patrolling roles for the future. (F35 will come in sureshot instead of Rafale M)
> 
> *+++*
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @cerberus @Vauban @Taygibay @MilSpec
> Seems finally strong negotiations techniques. DM MP is clear about everything.. He just does nt want only 36 but rather the whole MII part and hence is negotiating lot more with clarity.
> 
> Now its true that DA being a private entity will think about profits but it does mean it will lose out an opportunity for the whole deal if DA does not support DM and PM vision for MII and affordability part.
> 
> If you understand the basic structure source says the original 108+18+63 has effectively become 90+36+45+18 = thats the structure for IAF and for IN its 60+30 = 90 structure in tranche 1. Tranche 2 based on Shore based patrol approval and take over from IAF roles will be much larger than this but will come in much later stage..
> 
> So DM MP is clear if DA does not budge and is looking at only corporate profit, it will lose everything asap.



Reads like a lot of penny pinching going on and a lot of inter linked complexities that affect the final price.
I'm not sure why government is not giving assurances to Dassault, that it wants to go beyond figure of 36. it looks like they are negotiating for a very small number trying to get in everything (barring ToT) that MMRCA envisaged. 
Something got to give shortly.



MilSpec said:


> That is not how missile integration works.
> There is not source code for identifying missile like a driver for new hardware on system. It rather needs an adapter to provide read the bus address for the device which can be anything device, if the device is incapable of reading function blocks and resource blocks in the remote station. which can be a jammer, missile, targeting pod, pgm, ashm, flares, recce cameras etc. much like integrating a VFD or a transducer on a PLC. The fundamental logic remains the same. Remember R27ER was qualified on the mirages, so were derby on the MKI. much like a 1553 module where Bus Controller (BC) controlling multiple Remote Terminals (RT) all connected together by a data bus providing a single data path between the Bus Controller and all the associated Remote Terminals. Or in some cases a FFLD styled daisy network with device layer protection as seen in industrial protocols like foundation field bus and Multi drop Hart. I don't have any details on how the Mission computers architecture works on a rafale, but I can assure you there is no software source code fix for it, it needs proper interfacing to read all the device block at the remote (pylon) terminals like it's resource blocks (remember fox 1 jamming on a f16 during final fight in independence day movie), foundation block (to provide active passive tracking), Digi/An -input block to to provide the targetting parameters, in some cases even setting up proximity switch (radar /laser).



sir, can you explain in different words.
In industrial systems for example SCADA or PLCs, we have a processor that generates outputs based on input and logic schemes and the output then drives a final control element (relays, E/A converters, VFDs etc).
now in case of a fighter jet, suppose pilot wishes to fire a missile, the input could come from some sort of push button and the data is to be fed to onboard systems of missile. The radar and/or infrared targeting systems would then feed some data to electronic systems of missile, which would then get fired and follow some trajectory.
Now i suppose what you are saying above is that the data being fed to missile or armament is through a data bus with a piece of hardware in between (Adopter).
My doubt here are:

Do these buses have some standardized architecture or protocols that allow them to interact with all sorts of armaments or final control elements?
Do different armament require different type of input architecture, or in other words is there a universal design that allow complete adaptability?
Thanks!
anant

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## sathya

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Hearing some buzz*
> ++
> 
> The price negotiations from Indian side has led to few points of change in terms of customization
> Indian side has decided to give up AshM integration of Harpoons and Brahmos for the time being. DA has instead offered Exocet which MOD is finally considering.
> The integration of Astra BVR may include potential hiccups. The present seeker is Russian in Origin and the new Ku Band seeker is suppose to be tested this year or next.
> This implies the present Astra missile integration needs source code and other help from Russian side which increases cost not only at DA end but also needs some payment for the codes at Russian end.
> The new customization package cost it seems has reduced to almost Euro 1.2-1.3 Bn down from earlier Euro 2 Bn
> The jets + weapons package is now negotiated at Euro 3.6 Bn
> The infrastructure, support, spares, training, TCO, etc etc all put together is approximated at around Euro 3.4 Bn
> So Total approx cost is around Euro (3.6+3.4+1.3) = Euro 8.3 Bn approx or Rs 59,800 Crs or USD 9 Bn
> There are scope for further cutting of approx ~ Euro 1.3 if a base is reduced from 2 to 1
> The other aspect of negotiations seems to be
> 
> DM MP wants DA to come down from earlier price quote of Euro 11 Bn to this final offer from Indian side
> MP says if DA comes down after seeing the scope of further business in MII and follow on 18 options, then the engine customization is a go ahead or else that may be dropped too.
> That may reduce the price by another Euro 0.7 Bn and save about Rs 5000 Crs.
> A single base of operations would indicate the final confirmation that its only 36 Jets nothing more.
> The repercussions seems to be that India may finally either freeze at just 36 with major focus to avoid even buying these 36 jets if DA does not comes to understand the joint view point of Indian and French Governments
> DM MP is a bit upset that inspite of making a provision of 50% upfront payment rather than making 15% upfront and next 35% over 4 years as per delivery and work completion, DA does not seems to appreciate that GOI is keen to facilitate them setting up MII part in offsets as well as giving them abundant support financially.
> DM MP has briefed PM NaMo all this and has also discussed a plan that owing to delay in FGFA project, if Rafale deal does not conclude within the shortest possible time with clarity of MII part, MOD will be forced to order 4-5 squadrons of SU 30 MKI from Nashik Plant. This is to address sqds depletion.
> Also a new strategy of just hi end and low end mix will be made once and for all to replace hi-med-lo basis of strategy.
> That would also mean GOI will invest for 2nd line in pvt sector themselves partly for their requirements of LCA in nos.
> India is not officially looking at Naval FGFA, hence IN will have to opt for either Mig29Ks or look for another fighter other than Rafale M/Rafale which is the first choice atm for IN's ambitious plan of CATOBAR and shore based patrolling roles for the future. (F35 will come in sureshot instead of Rafale M)
> 
> *+++*
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @cerberus @Vauban @Taygibay @MilSpec
> Seems finally strong negotiations techniques. DM MP is clear about everything.. He just does nt want only 36 but rather the whole MII part and hence is negotiating lot more with clarity.
> 
> Now its true that DA being a private entity will think about profits but it does mean it will lose out an opportunity for the whole deal if DA does not support DM and PM vision for MII and affordability part.
> 
> If you understand the basic structure source says the original 108+18+63 has effectively become 90+36+45+18 = thats the structure for IAF and for IN its 60+30 = 90 structure in tranche 1. Tranche 2 based on Shore based patrol approval and take over from IAF roles will be much larger than this but will come in much later stage..
> 
> So DM MP is clear if DA does not budge and is looking at only corporate profit, it will lose everything asap.



It looks like Harpoon will definitely get integrated in N LCA 
Since not possible in Russian platforms 
N LCA mk2 will replace N jaguars

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## PARIKRAMA

MilSpec said:


> That is not how missile integration works.
> There is no source code for identifying missile like a driver for new hardware on system. It rather needs an adapter to read the bus address for the device which can be any device, if the mission computer is incapable of reading function blocks and resource blocks in the remote station. which can be a jammer, missile, targeting pod, pgm, ashm, flares, recce cameras etc. much like integrating a VFD or a transducer on a PLC. The fundamental logic remains the same. Remember R27ER was qualified on the mirages, so were derby on the MKI. much like a 1553 module where Bus Controller (BC) controlling multiple Remote Terminals (RT) all connected together by a data bus providing a single data path between the Bus Controller and all the associated Remote Terminals. Or in some cases a FFLD styled daisy chained network with device layer protection as seen in industrial protocols like foundation field bus and Multi drop Hart. I don't have any details on how the Mission computers architecture works on a rafale, but I can assure you there is no software source code fix for it, it needs proper interfacing to read all the device block at the remote (pylon) terminals like it's resource blocks (remember fox 1 jamming on a f16 during final fight in independence day movie), foundation block (to provide active passive tracking), Digi/An -input block to to provide the targetting parameters, in some cases even setting up proximity switch (radar /laser) or self destruct modes.



What you said is correct Sir, so i had enquired with source. He says and i quote that present seeker of Astra is actually R77 seeker. The adapter led bus transfer to enable mission computer to enable control of the Astra BVR also needs signalling and providing information for active and passive control. ATM, this integration is being handled via Russian help and thus, Su 30MKI was chosen for Astra testing (of course due to heavy size of MKI and effect of Gs on Pylon carrying Astra also)

He also says the Indian seeker will be the one which will enable a full control and enabling ourselves to integrate it with Elta Radars for LCA as well as RBE 2 AESA radar. IF we know the exact address of the device functions, then the adapter integration is easy. 

Its still being negotiated and perhaps will be worked over by Dassault. But integration solution will require time with a pylon modification (minor) and flight certification.

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## ultron

JF-17 is better. JF-17 has DSI. Rafale does not have DSI.


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## Abingdonboy

Round and round we go, this is just getting absurd. There is a failure of leadership on both sides, it's like the blind leading the blind and by that I mean the bureaucrats on both sides. I fail to see this clarity that the DM sees, it seems like the Indian side keeps moving the goal posts, one moment the exact configuration proposed in the MMRCA is being asked for now it is F3+, then they are asking for engine modifications and on and on.

This would all be fun and understandable if the IAF wasn't on the cusp of losing 1/3rd of its force in the next 5-7 years with no credible action plan to speak of. There is no urgency being shown nor any appreciation of the fact this is on the brink of an emergency situation. The IAF is still flyin 40+ years old airframes awaiting the polticans to pull the thumbs from their backsides but the successors are no better and simply lost chasing their tails.



PARIKRAMA said:


> DM MP has briefed PM NaMo all this and has also discussed a plan that owing to delay in FGFA project, if Rafale deal does not conclude within the shortest possible time with clarity of MII part, MOD will be forced to order 4-5 squadrons of SU 30 MKI from Nashik Plant. This is to address sqds depletion.
> 
> Also a new strategy of just hi end and low end mix will be made once and for all to replace hi-med-lo basis of strategy.



This addresses nothing. The SQN depletion will continue as more MKIs can only be produced once existing orders are complete that will be in 2019 at the earliest- so the first new MKI would be in service by 2020 at the earliest whilst the IAF began standing down MiG-21/27 SQNs in 2014 itself. And you can't count on an entirely new product like the LCA, it is yet to enter mass production- many hard days and troubles still lay in store for that project.

Addtionally, leaving aside the compelte failure of this "plan b" to actually offer a credible prescription to the mess the IAF finds itself in from a numerical perspective, what is perhaps more chilling is this alternate plan offers NOTHING to address the operational gap a "Hi-lo" mix would create. The Mirage 2000s and much of the Jaguar fleet are gone in 15 years, how will the IAF's deep penetration strike requirements be met? The MKI and LCA are in no way able to handle this task.

And where is the media in all this asking these troubling questions? A complete lack of any sort of scrutiny of these decsions being made behind closed doors is undermining India's national security but it seems everyone is sleep walking into this mess.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Seems finally strong negotiations techniques. DM MP is clear about everything.. He just does nt want only 36 but rather the whole MII part and hence is negotiating lot more with clarity.



MP is out of his depth, that much is apparent. He has no exposure to defence, he has little industrial expereince and he is even a novice as a federal/union cabinet minister. He simply doesn't seem to have a firm grasp on what hs should be doing, his continued misleading comments and failure to abide by a single of his own timelines is evidence of this. Everything from DPP to CDS he has promised is nowhere to be seen despite him promising it months ago to be implmented within "weeks".


What will be the net result? The IAF's force continues to contract- machines that should have been out of service decades ago will be forced to soldier on compelling more young men (and now women) to put their lives at risk the longer this farce goes on but at the same time spending less hours in the air in an attempt to mitigate the risks and eek out yet more life from these relics. So the IAF's combat capabilties will be hit all around- it has less aircraft to put in the air, the ones you do have are junk and being flown by less expereinced pilots. Who needs enemies when you have "leaders" such as this?



* “Nowhere have I seen such Lions led by such Lambs.”-General Max von Gallwitz*


@anant_s @MilSpec @nair @SpArK @Guynextdoor2 @Levina @Parul @IndoUS @Koovie @ranjeet @Star Wars @arp2041 @mkb95 @Dandpatta @danish_vij

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## PARIKRAMA

i think we are doing two things here.

Firstly we are playing a game for domestic audience which show every effort has been made and the price negotiated is the best we could have ever got.
This holds true as domestic audiences do not understand that a Rafale fully loaded vs a Super MKI fully loaded with comparable radars and specs will be costing similar upfront
The standard training, bases, spares etc will be directly divided by "analysts/experts/journalists" making the Rafale double the cost straight as this whole pack will be equal to the pack of fully loaded rafale cost.
Customization part will be unwrapped slowly and again our experts will divide it by 36 rather than whole fleet logic.
The true maruti advt of "kitna deti hai" or "how much it gives" for a mileage based USP selling mentality needs appeasement
Also BJP/NDA themselves wants to insulate from any political backlash

Secondly, a cost wise comparison shows that an assembly line in India will cost around Euro 3 Bn or USD 3.25 Bn.
This implies if you add on few more goodies which needs localisation upfront, and pour in another Euro 1 Bn this gives you a significant minimum figure of Euro 3+1=4 Bn
Now with offsets at 50% conservatively the deal has to be greater than Euro 8 Bn at any time.
So for MII to be success the basic back of hand calculations shows this figure anyhow

But customization makes sense only when you order for a sufficient numbers to divide the cost over your fleet of acquisition.
An engine customization is a sure way of saying the requirement is much larger.
And so is the rest of the package

The casualty is of course IAF who is suffering due to last decade plus loss over not having a vision and proper follow up mechanism.

@Abingdonboy
DM MP cannot be blamed alone. If you see what i wrote just above, even he has to safeguard PM NaMo from any scandals from within his own party rather than opposition who will anyway go up in arms when we sign and formalise Rafale deal.

Its imperative that MII has to come or else Congress/UPA would paint the whole country with expert analysts + Bharat Karnad and others to show MMRCA was far better (inspite of all negatives and the truth) and the gullible Indian countrymen will accept it without understanding anything or even logically thinking whats the reality.

Of course, IAF is going to suffer. The MKI as a solution to me is the most idiotic proposition i have ever heard from the very beginning. Very few people know that as compared to sanctioned ratio of 1.25, the pilot to fighter ratio is 0.81 as per Parliamentary standing committee report as of 2015. The addition of 100 odd twin seaters fighter jet implies a need of 250 such pilots which can very well manage 200+ single seat fighter jet. So what DM MP said as Plan B is not logical as we are already first trying to shore up the numbers of pilot ratio from 0.81 to 1.25. Moreover with 100 odd LCA coming in, such a large new 100 twin seater fighter jet effectively will either led to delays in forming operational squadrons in proper number or one of the program production has to be delayed in order to accommodate. One lucky part is a lot of retirement of old jets which will make some good numbers of pilots free but that does not change the fact that ratio is still less than 1.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Firstly we are playing a game for domestic audience which show every effort has been made and the price negotiated is the best we could have ever got.
> 
> This holds true as domestic audiences do not understand that a Rafale fully loaded vs a Super MKI fully loaded with comparable radars and specs will be costing similar upfront
> The standard training, bases, spares etc will be directly divided by "analysts/experts/journalists" making the Rafale double the cost straight as this whole pack will be equal to the pack of fully loaded rafale cost.
> Customization part will be unwrapped slowly and again our experts will divide it by 36 rather than whole fleet logic.
> The true maruti advt of "kitna deti hai" or "how much it gives" for a mileage based USP selling mentality needs appeasement
> Also BJP/NDA themselves wants to insulate from any political backlash






PARIKRAMA said:


> DM MP cannot be blamed alone. If you see what i wrote just above, even he has to safeguard PM NaMo from any scandals from within his own party rather than opposition who will anyway go up in arms when we sign and formalise Rafale deal.
> 
> Its imperative that MII has to come or else Congress/UPA would paint the whole country with expert analysts + Bharat Karnad and others to show MMRCA was far better (inspite of all negatives and the truth) and the gullible Indian countrymen will accept it without understanding anything or even logically thinking whats the reality.



Much of the poltical costs for the NDA/BJP are entirely self-inflicted. Their policy of keeping the public in the dark about deal after deal and effectively saying "trust us" only pays off if they are able to come up with a credible solution at the end of it all. Right now, I think the GoI is setting themselves up for a COLLOSSAL failure- 10+ months down the drain with nothing to show for it. The opposition that has been relatively tame on this issue could rightly say they left office with a more creidble soltuion (MMRCA) on the table than the nonsense this GoI seems to be failing to accomplish.

If this self-styled "action" government is unable to make any progress on a pure govt-govt deal then I have to seriosuly question everyone involved and I'll start at the very top- the PM and DM. They are big on promises but very poor in backing up their lofty words with tanigble action. So many defence deals are still pending, the Rafale is just one of them, all that has happened is the GoI has tried to be be clever and cleared the stoppage being at the DAC stage and moved it down the line to the Fin Min and CCS. The net result being the same of course but it will take a few more years for the idiots in the media to wake up to this reality.




PARIKRAMA said:


> But customization makes sense only when you order for a sufficient numbers to divide the cost over your fleet of acquisition.
> 
> An engine customization is a sure way of saying the requirement is much larger.
> 
> And so is the rest of the package


Bro, NO WAY are DA going to do any signifcant customizations for a fleet of 36. If it is to be 36 they will be as off the shelf as possible (with some Indian IFFs and such but nothing major).



PARIKRAMA said:


> The casualty is of course IAF whose is suffering due to last decade plus loss over not having a vision and proper follow up mechanism.


It's one thing to appreciate the problem but when no solutions are forthcoming it is beyond frustrating.




PARIKRAMA said:


> Of course, IAF is going to suffer. The MKI as a solution to me is the most idiotic proposition i have ever heard from the very beginning. Very few people know that as compared to sanctioned ratio of 1.25, the pilot to fighter ratio is 0.81 as per Parliamentary standing committee report as of 2015. The addition of 100 odd twin seaters fighter jet implies a need of 250 such pilots which can very well manage 200+ single seat fighter jet.



A very good point my friend and one I had failed to consider. So on all levels the MKI as a "plan b" for the MMRCA is a preposterous idea on every conceviable level, and this is EXACTLY what the IAF said about 3/4 years ago now!

Let's also not forget that even though you will induct more airframes (if plan b is really executed), the problem of availability will remain. The most the OEM (Sukhoi) can promise is 75%, DA on the other hand are willing to guarentee at least 85% fleet availability- perhaps even more.

This is before we even factor in all of the intangible benefits of the Rafale buy over simply going for more MKIs/LCA ie the quantum leap that would be seen in the maintaince command's abilities as a result of the Rafale getting into service. To this day Russia is still in a regressive quality control and servicability mindset and the Europeans/West are simply lightyears ahead.


Is this MP's idea of a bluff? If so he is exceptionally bad at this game.



@PARIKRAMA this has evolved from a " we will buy 36 now and see what comes along in terms of MII later" into "150+ Rafales with MII framework established or 0 (not even the flyaways) Rafales". It's all or nothing.


I can't help but feel that this GoI has bitten off more than they can chew and are in too deep with trying to get all of the benefits of the MMRCA but through an alternate route and the complexity of this task has simply overwhelmed them. There was a reason it took the combined efforts of the MoD/industry/IAF to come up with the orginal MMRCA framework a solid 1-2 years. This GoI/MoD has been trying to do the same on the fly and they are simply lost (IMHO), they tried to be too clever but it is simply backfiring. At least the MMRCA framework was exceptionally clear and accesible, what the GoI/MoD is now doing is nothing but opaque and convoluted.

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## Nilgiri

Thanks for the great updates @PARIKRAMA

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## Audio

PARIKRAMA said:


> ................



in one of the backpages you mentioned Neuron tech transfer, anything new on this?

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## Mitro

Son of a gun


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## MilSpec

anant_s said:


> Do these buses have some standardized architecture or protocols that allow them to interact with all sorts of armaments or final control elements?
> Do different armament require different type of input architecture, or in other words is there a universal design that allow complete adaptability?
> Thanks!
> anant


_Do these buses have some standardized architecture or protocols that allow them to interact with all sorts of armaments or final control elements?_

So do some don't (1553 is quite common now). Comm protocols are are usually proprietary, but the the Missions computer doesn't need to be. That is where your comm adapters come in. Linke in your industrail automn You can run modbus, flex i/o, and foundation field bus devices on the on the same system given you have the correct prosoft adapters or now even labview subroutines.. Thus you can run AIM sidwinders on Mig21's and derby / Pythons on harriers and even a Meteor Ramjet on a MKI.




_Do different armament require different type of input architecture, or in other words is there a universal design that allow complete adaptability

At the end of the day it's all 4-20ma, system to me. so chandramukhi ho ya paro ki fark painda hai yaro. Issue is mostly with guidance system resource blocks, some newer missiles have some cool internal calibrations and diagnostics which are lost when you go to a comm adapter. _

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## dadeechi

If India can get 200 RAFALEs with MII,infrastructure, support, spares, training, customizations for under $25 Billion, it should go ahead and close the deal else look for alternatives.

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @Levina @sathya @MilSpec @cerberus @anant_s @kasper95 @Oracle 33

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## MilSpec

dadeechi said:


> If India can get 200 RAFALEs with MII,infrastructure, support, spares, training, customizations for under $25 Billion, it should go ahead and close the deal else look for alternatives.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @Levina @sathya @MilSpec @cerberus @anant_s @kasper95 @Oracle 33


Why waste tax payer money, Buy Printers instead, and use the billions for One rank one pension.

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## Oracle 33

dadeechi said:


> If India can get 200 RAFALEs with MII,infrastructure, support, spares, training, customizations for under $25 Billion, it should go ahead and close the deal else look for alternatives.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @Levina @sathya @MilSpec @cerberus @anant_s @kasper95 @Oracle 33




Do we even need 200? Rather spend it on s400 and those fantastic Japanese subs and the rest on education to build our skill set so we can develop in house

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## dadeechi

MilSpec said:


> Why waste tax payer money, Buy Printers instead, and use the billions for One rank one pension.



Printed paper would start having value when it is backed up by something.

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## Oracle 33

There is not going to be a war just proxy attacks, the chinese need to park their money and India offers the best growth potential. Is Pakistan going to attack? Nope

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## dadeechi

Oracle 33 said:


> Do we even need 200? Rather spend it on s400 and those fantastic Japanese subs and the rest on education to build our skill set so we can develop in house



I do support s-400s but why should it be either or ?

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## MilSpec

dadeechi said:


> Printed paper would start having value when it is backed up by something.



Ghanta value... wouldn't make a difference... thsoe dossiers are more or less TP's

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## dadeechi

Oracle 33 said:


> There is not going to be a war just proxy attacks, the chinese need to park their money and India offers the best growth potential. Is Pakistan going to attack? Nope



How do you stop the proxy war? S-400s are still going to be defensive. India needs to take the battle to the enemy.

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## Oracle 33

dadeechi said:


> How do you stop the proxy war? S-400s are still going to be defensive. India needs to take the battle to the enemy.



Using rafale? No we need to build our network inside....you know where



dadeechi said:


> I do support s-400s but why should it be either or ?



You spend $20bn now and in 30 years we will need a new replacement is this logical?

Better invest in our own capabilities and increase our exports

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## dadeechi

Oracle 33 said:


> Using rafale? No we need to build our network inside....you know where



Hope Modi gets some inspiration from Indira. 



Oracle 33 said:


> Using rafale? No we need to build our network inside....you know where
> 
> 
> 
> You spend $20bn now and in 30 years we will need a new replacement is this logical?
> 
> Better invest in our own capabilities and increase our exports



RAFALE's MII and FGFA's JV should get us a more closer to full indigenous platform in AMCA.

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## Oracle 33

dadeechi said:


> Hope Modi gets some inspiration from Indira.
> 
> 
> 
> RAFALE's MII and FGFA's JV should get us a more closer to full indigenous platform in AMCA.




Ajit bhai is working on some plans

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## PARIKRAMA

Audio said:


> in one of the backpages you mentioned Neuron tech transfer, anything new on this?


Still exists along with LCA navy UC development and other credible tech know how.


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## mirage

ultron said:


> JF-17 is better. JF-17 has DSI. Rafale does not have DSI.


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## #hydra#

ultron said:


> JF-17 is better. JF-17 has DSI. Rafale does not have DSI.


Agreed,with dsi a single jf can even destroy entire USAF. Sir can you please compare dsi jf17 & Chinese dsi j10.


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## MilSpec

dadeechi said:


> RAFALE's MII and FGFA's JV should get us a more closer to full indigenous platform in AMCA.


kab tak glass trace kar ke drawing mein pass hoge.... There is no substitute for actual hard work. If we don't design from ground up, then it will be the same situation.

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## PoKeMon

7 squads (7 * 18 = 126) will do for me.

1 squad - SFC for nuke delivery.
1 squad - SFC for special ops.
3 squads - Eastern Command to deter China.
2 squads - Western Command to deter Pakistani pigeons and balloons.

126 was the original number anyways. Get that number for 20 billion and close this fcking deal.

Or 

Close this deal. Go for 60 F-35 (flyaway condition) and few more Su-30/35/super.

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## 帅的一匹

When Rafale arrives, it will have to face J20.


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## MilSpec

PARIKRAMA said:


> Of course, IAF is going to suffer. The MKI as a solution to me is the most idiotic proposition i have ever heard from the very beginning. Very few people know that as compared to sanctioned ratio of 1.25, the pilot to fighter ratio is 0.81 as per Parliamentary standing committee report as of 2015. The addition of 100 odd twin seaters fighter jet implies a need of 250 such pilots which can very well manage 200+ single seat fighter jet. So what DM MP said as Plan B is not logical as we are already first trying to shore up the numbers of pilot ratio from 0.81 to 1.25. Moreover with 100 odd LCA coming in, such a large new 100 twin seater fighter jet effectively will either led to delays in forming operational squadrons in proper number or one of the program production has to be delayed in order to accommodate. One lucky part is a lot of retirement of old jets which will make some good numbers of pilots free but that does not change the fact that ratio is still less than 1.



I found this part of your post quite interesting.
I will come to the preposterous MKI solution later, but lets talk about the pilot ratio.

sanctioned number is 1.25 pilot to fighter, and currently it stands at 0.81. Who plans the sanctioned squadron strength for the IAF based on strategic roadmap, I am sure it's not the crpf or the railway police it must be the Air staff HQ of India. So when they plan for 42 sqdns and they are already running low on pilots despite the fact they are extremely low on squadron strength, then whose responsible for the gap? Will it be safe to assume it is Air staff HQ which cannot attract enough talent. So instead of solving a recruitment problem, we want to buy single seat fighters because we don't have enough pilots. Wonder if we use the same logic for Indian navy, what if the navy comes out tomorrow and says we are only going procure missile boats, because it takes 1/4th the crew to man a missile boat compared to a destroyer.
Sorry bro but I don't buy this regressive logic at all, it makes for a good argument, but the fact remains essence of plan is to look ahead, not look behind. Let's not blame the two seat construction of MKI as a negative to cover the buffonery that goes on in Air Staff HQ.

Now to the idiotic proposition of SU30MKI' as solution - Chinese are ok with fielding Flankers against their most active potential theaters, so are the russians, IAF apparently is ok with fielding the Flankers for Air Sup, Strike, and maritime application, but when it comes to this mythical medium multirole, flankers are no good. Russians and chinese dont have a rafale, but they don't seem to be crying everyday for the requirement, Russians are ready to take on EFT/ Rafale/F15's/f16's/F/A18/Gripens still with the same Su30/Mig29 Combo, but somehow in Indian context, without the rafale, our security paradigm seems incomplete. Is there some special powers of the rafale that are not visible me.

Talk to any IAF fulcrum or flanker driver and ask them which other platform they think can outperform them, and listen very carefully to their answers.



Abingdonboy said:


> Addtionally, leaving aside the compelte failure of this "plan b" to actually offer a credible prescription to the mess the IAF finds itself in from a numerical perspective, what is perhaps more chilling is this alternate plan offers NOTHING to address the operational gap a "Hi-lo" mix would create. The Mirage 2000s and much of the Jaguar fleet are gone in 15 years, how will the IAF's deep penetration strike requirements be met? The MKI and LCA are in no way able to handle this task.
> 
> And where is the media in all this asking these troubling questions? A complete lack of any sort of scrutiny of these decsions being made behind closed doors is undermining India's national security but it seems everyone is sleep walking into this mess.
> 
> 
> 
> MP is out of his depth, that much is apparent. He has no exposure to defence, he has little industrial expereince and he is even a novice as a federal/union cabinet minister. He simply doesn't seem to have a firm grasp on what hs should be doing, his continued misleading comments and failure to abide by a single of his own timelines is evidence of this. Everything from DPP to CDS he has promised is nowhere to be seen despite him promising it months ago to be implmented within "weeks".
> 
> 
> What will be the net result? The IAF's force continues to contract- machines that should have been out of service decades ago will be forced to soldier on compelling more young men (and now women) to put their lives at risk the longer this farce goes on but at the same time spending less hours in the air in an attempt to mitigate the risks and eek out yet more life from these relics. So the IAF's combat capabilties will be hit all around- it has less aircraft to put in the air, the ones you do have are junk and being flown by less expereinced pilots. Who needs enemies when you have "leaders" such as this?
> 
> 
> 
> @anant_s @MilSpec @nair @SpArK @Guynextdoor2 @Levina @Parul @IndoUS @Koovie @ranjeet @Star Wars @arp2041 @mkb95 @Dandpatta @danish_vij




_MKI wont be able to handle "Deep Penetration Strike role"_.... lets dwell it little deeper into this.i have never been a big fan of the jaguar's combat performance, at the same time, there are very few aircrafts which have ever been engineered as well but I will come back to that a little later.
This "Deep Penetration Strike" was coined by the IAF as a buzz word for medium range strike aircraft - there is no special requirement for deep Penetration Strike that a MKI cannot do...This buzz word was given to the aircraft because it was useless when it came to interception and air superiority, wherein the actual requirement for the IAF that fit the bill back then was the SAAB Viggen a through bred interceptor and an early multirole do it all aircraft. As far as nuclear delivery is concerned, you can roll one down from a IL76 and the effects will be the same. I don't have the slightest hesitation in saying that SU30MKI can take on the role of any platform in Indian air force and up it 2 folds be it the mirage , jag, 27, or even the surya kiran acrobatics (may be barring the 29 in wvr at 0-8000 ft elev). It was designed to be a do it all platform, and it is exactly what it was designed to be, an Air Dominance Platform, and a bloody good one.

Now coming back to the Jaguar platform, I wish we didn't buy the Jag, I don't like the engine, I dont like the avionics, i dont like the comms, I don't like the way it flies, I hate the reasons why we bought it. But it is one damn good airframe. Unless you run it to the ground you won't wear the airframe, the landing gear is better than anything IAF flies, and it has a lot of life left in it. If we can re-engine it, and not with that shitty adour or the F125, but a solid 55KN engine, it can become a pretty good platform, and will serve for a long time. It has one of the least operational costs, and spares are ample. So if our ASHQ can spend 500 mill, it can keep the Jags in air for a good 20 years, some of the air-frames are as new as 2002. And btw, jag is not the first plpatform that suffers from a poor choice in engine there have been others which wen't through the same ordeal, and it boils my blood that ASHQ keeps conning us decade after decade, and we keep falling for the same shit all the time.

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## PARIKRAMA

MilSpec said:


> sanctioned number is 1.25 pilot to fighter, and currently it stands at 0.81. Who plans the sanctioned squadron strength for the IAF based on strategic roadmap, I am sure it's not the crpf or the railway police it must be the Air staff HQ of India. So when they plan for 42 sqdns and they are already running low on pilots despite the fact they are extremely low on squadron strength, then whose responsible for the gap? Will it be safe to assume it is Air staff HQ which cannot attract enough talent. So instead of solving a recruitment problem, we want to buy single seat fighters because we don't have enough pilots. Wonder if we use the same logic for Indian navy, what if the navy comes out tomorrow and says we are only going procure missile boats, because it takes 1/4th the crew to man a missile boat compared to a destroyer.
> Sorry bro but I don't buy this regressive logic at all, it makes for a good argument, but the fact remains essence of plan is to look ahead, not look behind. Let's not blame the two seat construction of MKI as a negative to cover the buffonery that goes on in Air Staff HQ.
> 
> Now to the idiotic proposition of SU30MKI' as solution - Chinese are ok with fielding Flankers against their most active potential theaters, so are the russians, IAF apparently is ok with fielding the Flankers for Air Sup, Strike, and maritime application, but when it comes to this mythical medium multirole, flankers are no good. Russians and chinese dont have a rafale, but they don't seem to be crying everyday for the requirement, Russians are ready to take on EFT/ Rafale/F15's/f16's/F/A18/Gripens still with the same Su30/Mig29 Combo, but somehow in Indian context, without the rafale, our security paradigm seems incomplete. Is there some special powers of the rafale that are not visible me.
> 
> Talk to any IAF fulcrum or flanker driver and ask them which other platform they think can outperform them, and listen very carefully to their answers.



Solid points Sir, no doubt when it comes to recruitment part, Air Staff HQ has to share partially the blame along with our media and Government too. From my own personal experience, i can tell you a short small story of my own life experience. Sorry its a bit off topic but perhaps i can throw some light on multiple factors.

Back in my young days, i wanted to be a pilot. In my family, we had a very democratic setup (namesake its basically a dictatorship run by mother but you cannot officially claim it as dictatorship, specific ops role, source of money being father utilization of money by mother led broad structure). So i was asked what commercial plane i wanted to fly as pilot? and i said no commercial jets. I want to become an IAF pilot. The response was a complete silence that day and no discussion further. In the following days there was a emotional outpouring with a major focus to either drop the pilot ambition or stick to commercial jets. The major line was always "I dont want to lose my son" and i was not able to understand why this line. Who is losing their son's if they are AF pilots for fighters? My family and relatives over next many months kept on repeating the same story of "losing son" again and again till i stopped saying the ambition of pilot thing...

Much later when i grew up and wanted to understand what really transpired that an entire family, relatives, near by neighbors etc etc were against becoming fighter pilots.. It led me finally to the story.. "flying coffins" . In effect, this whole saga, followed relentlessly by Press showing one side of loss, despair, hopeless situation and IAF/MOD/GOI not able to come out with a vindictive stand to clear out the wrong perceptions, negative marketing and hit on IAF brand value kind of added fuel to the fire mix.

I am not saying this could be the only reason, but i do believe it was probably an over played trigger in response to the situation. If you see 80s, 90s the fall out looks apparent. Of course, now what we see is a cumulative effect of multiple decades of lower intake or due to lack of appeal among the youth.

Even today, the AIr staff HQ has not been able to come out with a much bigger brand building exercise. Something which can attract more talent. Fresh boots. They have made efforts but the results cant be seen over night. and uptill we see substantial result, perhaps we wont see big changes in that number creeping from 0.81 to 1 to finally 1.25.

About Flanker part, i am not pointing a two seater as just a base for an excuse. Rather i am feeling that if 272 MKIs as and when it comes online, if thery are sufficiently equipped with pilots, and assuming we are unable to either increase the pilot to fighter ratio from 0.81 upwards, the other frontline fighters would face shortage. True take out 100 odd fighters owing to retirement and you get say 81 pilots free (based on 0.81 ratio).
This is where i do have an issue as you see since we failed to attract new talent for reasons like what i said above, this 81 say has an option of being retrained and utilized in
1. Say 80 LCAs or Rafales or any other single seater
2. 40 new MKIs or double seater.

Now single seater could be a Su35 flanker too.. No one says No to it. At least not me IMO. But IAF saying no to it more seems to be from the fact that they dont want Russian jet in this category than anything else plain as daylight type logic. But inducting new twin seaters without addressing the staff shortage issue is an added twist to this complex issue.

Apparently, i had just noticed one small fact. You know a week or 10 days back the intrusion of airspace by a balloon over Rajasthan. Now consider few facts.

Bogey detected by radar
The size and speed of detection meant we knew its not a fighter
We still presumed it could be a UAV
We sortied a "Su 30 MKI" to intercept and bring it down
Now we can say that based on air intrusion risk, we needed the best fighter to engage and bring it down. We know its an overkill but threat matrix response needed that.

So then it brings to second most important question in my mind. The air interception for bogey is whose task? Original class notes says Light fighters are for air interception for operational performance benefits and heavier fighters for interception when adverse situations like weather or bogey speed led initial detector to conclude a sophisticated jet intrusion, raising the risk aspect in threat assessment matrix and deployment of Air superiority heavy jets to also handle intrusion threat.
I am sure IAF might have followed and have based on threat level matrix Light , medium and heavy fighters overlapping area of theater under coverage.. But in this case, in a broad daylight, with the bogey identified in radar to be max a low speed UAV does not deem necessary for a higher threat response. Yet we did it..

It critically points me to the fact that threat matrix lower tiers of light and medium category to be addressed by LCA/Mig21 and medium by say Rafales/Mig29/Mirages etc are either not adequate in numbers, not in operational readiness, not in the theater of operations, or most importantly not inducted. And yet result is also inflated opex cost. Imagine a case if it was terrain hugging or low altitude UAV, the present response means we will deploy MKI for such cases too,,. is it optimum use of our own resources?

This leads me to conclude we are over reliant on our warhorse Su 30 MKI only and thus a Plan B with MKI is not an optimum solution. I agree a flanker fitting medium category is not a bad choice but these two categories do need urgent attention. LCA in light at least is a done deal for first phase. But we do need either Rafales or a flanker or another medium category also with a clear cut idea of numbers of production + induction schedule finalization within next few months. Unfortunately, since we have already moved ahead with Rafale so far, its imperative we try our best with them and then if it fails seek another one. But definitely not MKI as we are over relying on the beast.

The best solution could be a in house developed jet but for that first we need LCA program to succeed. Only then we can move to next category building in a progressive manner. and side by side Kaveri program needs fresh infusion to see it through to power such jets in the future. These are time intensive solutions and need at least 2 decades to see fruitful results. Unfortunately, during these times, we have to buy and see from which place we can get best deals.

Sorry for a long reply!!

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## Levina

MilSpec said:


> YOU DO NOT PAY THAT TO DASSAULT UPFRONT.


It is still not decided. Isnt it?
PM & Hollande did not agree on the final contract because they wanted the cost of maintenance, the required armament, the training of pilots and mechanics, etc etc to be finalized.
Hollande said it will take few days, his collaborators said "a few weeks" and Dassault announced 4 weeks.
So lets wait for another 4 weeks.



MilSpec said:


> Why waste tax payer money, Buy Printers instead.

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## PARIKRAMA

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Vauban @Taygibay @cerberus @Nilgiri @dadeechi
Tagging you folks too.. MilSpec Sir did raise a very solid point. What you guys feel about it? Essentially what he has written is a a beautiful solid point...

BTW news about F18s again being offered under MII - is that you feel will help India with USA - Boeing and LM constant pressure perhaps will make Dassault agree to negotiations. Especially since they have just briefed IN about Rafale M in last few days of Jan 2016 for a potential Catobar ACC deal.


or its an act of desperation like Gripen offers as you know all is over yet we should make some noise with hope for something extra ordinary.

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## Taygibay

OK, as asked then :



MilSpec said:


> Russians and chinese dont have a rafale, but they don't seem to be crying everyday for the requirement, Russians are ready to take on EFT/ Rafale/F15's/f16's/F/A18/Gripens still with the same Su30/Mig29 Combo, but somehow in Indian context, without the rafale, our security paradigm seems incomplete. Is there some special powers of the rafale that are not visible me.



-Well, if it had a J_20 in pre-prod, Bharat would probably not buy the Rafale, wouldn't you say?
Same with Moscow as they have that T 50 PAKFA and you're but hoping to get the FGFA!

-Yes, there are but between the fanboys and the hairpulling noise on the one hand and secrecy
on the other, it may fly-by low enough to be stealth and thus off your radars! 



MilSpec said:


> there is no special requirement for deep Penetration Strike that a MKI cannot do...



Yes, there is. Low-level ingress. The MKI is really big. It needs a valley twice as large as the Rafale
to hide in. I don't have to remind you how narrow some mountain passes are on the world's rooftop?
That's what a one and a half empty weight load capacity does for you that MKI won't!







If you liked the Jag in that role, think how IAF pilots will feel when they do as much with HOffTAS ...

See it this way, MilSpec my man : TEI had the top fighters. Out of the 3, one was never for sale but
the other 2 ... were the MMRCA finalists! Don't doubt your choice? 

Later gang, Tay.

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## PARIKRAMA

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @cerberus @dadeechi 

I gave you guys the goodies a week back.. See here now..

I quote some excerpts from THE WEEK magazine

_France has agreed to include 50 per cent offsets (use of components made in India) as part of the deal. The two sides, however, are still fighting it out on the price issue. “*The French side is offering us 36 aircraft, complete with their weapons package, at around $8.9 billion (Rs59,600 crore),* *whereas we are looking at somewhere around a billion dollars less than what they are asking from us,” defence ministry sources told THE WEEK.* They said Modi and Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar wanted to buy the jets at prices lower than what had been offered in the previous tender scrapped by Modi. *India has asked France for add-ons such as helmet-mounted displays, American and Israeli missiles that can be fitted on to the aircraft, and advanced avionics and other systems. Sources said the add-ons would cost $2 billion extra and the weapons package, another $1 billion. *“The delay in finalising the deal for the last ten years has cost us dear, as we would be paying almost 30 per cent more money for buying only 36 aircraft,” said retired air marshal A.K. Singh.

A team led by Stephane Rebb, the French director-general (armament), had landed in Delhi almost a week before Hollande’s arrival. Rebb was involved in several rounds of negotiations with the Indian Contract Negotiations Committee, headed by Air Marshal R.K.S. Bhadauria. The talks focused on the technical and commercial aspects of the deal, but they failed to break the deadlock.

*To fulfil the offsets clause in the proposed deal, France agreed to invest half the worth of the project in India. This, sources say, could be in the defence, civilian aerospace and homeland security sectors. Dassault Aviation, which manufactures Rafale jets, is planning to set up a facility in India to manufacture parts of the combat aircraft and may help in the development of India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft project. “Setting up the facility to produce parts of the aircraft would not only help in reducing costs for us, but also allow us to fulfil offsets commitments,” said a French source involved in the negotiations. Dassault Aviation is also eyeing a ‘Make in India’ contract to produce 200 twin-engine combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force.*

According to retired air marshal R.K. Sharma, there was a need to go for a government-to-government deal for 36 aircraft instead of the previously planned 126 jets. “It was a much needed one, as the Indian Air Force was facing shortage of fighter aircraft and there was an urgent need to fill the gaps being created by the phasing out of older planes,” he told THE WEEK. According to Sharma, who was involved in the previous deal, the move to buy 36 Rafale jets would help the Air Force remain competent and combat-ready.

http://www.theweek.in/theweek/more/from-paris-to-pathankot.html





_

@Dash @Oracle 33

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## Dash

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @cerberus @dadeechi
> 
> I gave you guys the goodies a week back.. See here now..
> 
> I quote some excerpts from THE WEEK magazine
> 
> _France has agreed to include 50 per cent offsets (use of components made in India) as part of the deal. The two sides, however, are still fighting it out on the price issue. “*The French side is offering us 36 aircraft, complete with their weapons package, at around $8.9 billion (Rs59,600 crore),* *whereas we are looking at somewhere around a billion dollars less than what they are asking from us,” defence ministry sources told THE WEEK.* They said Modi and Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar wanted to buy the jets at prices lower than what had been offered in the previous tender scrapped by Modi. *India has asked France for add-ons such as helmet-mounted displays, American and Israeli missiles that can be fitted on to the aircraft, and advanced avionics and other systems. Sources said the add-ons would cost $2 billion extra and the weapons package, another $1 billion. *“The delay in finalising the deal for the last ten years has cost us dear, as we would be paying almost 30 per cent more money for buying only 36 aircraft,” said retired air marshal A.K. Singh.
> 
> A team led by Stephane Rebb, the French director-general (armament), had landed in Delhi almost a week before Hollande’s arrival. Rebb was involved in several rounds of negotiations with the Indian Contract Negotiations Committee, headed by Air Marshal R.K.S. Bhadauria. The talks focused on the technical and commercial aspects of the deal, but they failed to break the deadlock.
> 
> *To fulfil the offsets clause in the proposed deal, France agreed to invest half the worth of the project in India. This, sources say, could be in the defence, civilian aerospace and homeland security sectors. Dassault Aviation, which manufactures Rafale jets, is planning to set up a facility in India to manufacture parts of the combat aircraft and may help in the development of India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft project. “Setting up the facility to produce parts of the aircraft would not only help in reducing costs for us, but also allow us to fulfil offsets commitments,” said a French source involved in the negotiations. Dassault Aviation is also eyeing a ‘Make in India’ contract to produce 200 twin-engine combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force.*
> 
> According to retired air marshal R.K. Sharma, there was a need to go for a government-to-government deal for 36 aircraft instead of the previously planned 126 jets. “It was a much needed one, as the Indian Air Force was facing shortage of fighter aircraft and there was an urgent need to fill the gaps being created by the phasing out of older planes,” he told THE WEEK. According to Sharma, who was involved in the previous deal, the move to buy 36 Rafale jets would help the Air Force remain competent and combat-ready.
> 
> http://www.theweek.in/theweek/more/from-paris-to-pathankot.html
> 
> 
> View attachment 291433
> _
> 
> @Dash @Oracle 33



Thanks.
R K Sharma is spot on!. competent and combat ready is what MOD is looking at. But its a off topic at the moment.

One thing I have not been able to understand that why they want an Israeli HMDS, when Mirage (upgraded) and Mig 29K in IN use French Topsight HMDS. The only reason I could find as Top sight might not be as compatible with Israeli weapons as per the demand so an Israeli HMD. There are unconfirmed report that we want to add Astra in the weapon package and use American Anti-radiation missile, possibly AGM 88E.

This is for your information and not to scratch your head again  However although I am not a big supporter of anything more than 72 Rafale and 60-100 FGFA. But there seems to be a possibility of making more Rafales in India if they eventually manage to create a parts productions line and lower the prices further. for example this.

French - $ 9 billion
India - $ 8 billion

Now that's including fly away cost of $ 100 million now including full weapons package, normally weapons package is 5% of fly away cost, which is $ 5 million per plane. Now lets say A. if we can keep the price of the plane to $ 100 million in next 10 years, after lets say giving a spare production line to TATA or HAL or Mahindra Aerospace, we adjust the inflation. Integrating our own weapons system will reduce the cost to even 50% which is substantially high then we get a good deal out of it. Israeli HMDS costs less than French Topsight. You sum it up and there you see a potent, pocket friendly fighter.

If this happens and the successive govt follow this then we have some real chance in breaking it even.

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## MilSpec

Taygibay said:


> OK, as asked then :
> 
> 
> 
> -Well, if it had a J_20 in pre-prod, Bharat would probably not buy the Rafale, wouldn't you say?
> Same with Moscow as they have that T 50 PAKFA and you're but hoping to get the FGFA!
> 
> -Yes, there are but between the fanboys and the hairpulling noise on the one hand and secrecy
> on the other, it may fly-by low enough to be stealth and thus off your radars!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, there is. Low-level ingress. The MKI is really big. It needs a valley twice as large as the Rafale
> to hide in. I don't have to remind you how narrow some mountain passes are on the world's rooftop?
> That's what a one and a half empty weight load capacity does for you that MKI won't!
> 
> View attachment 291418
> 
> 
> If you liked the Jag in that role, think how IAF pilots will feel when they do as much with HOffTAS ...
> 
> See it this way, MilSpec my man : TEI had the top fighters. Out of the 3, one was never for sale but
> the other 2 ... were the MMRCA finalists! Don't doubt your choice?
> 
> Later gang, Tay.


Tay,

My follow up post explains my position on deep penetration strike as well as the my views on the Jaguar Sepecat, For me F1 or a viggen would have been a much better choice for us back in the day, as far as terrain hugging flight profiles and low altitude ingress is concerned with PGM's, very few a/f need to bring that option to the the table, and In India's immediate theater of conflict, I don't wan't anything flying in shoulder fired range at all for Air Interdiction.

Don't take my post as a negative for the Rafale, My views on the aircraft is known all along. I do not wan't to see two squadrons of any new platform in the Indian airforce. If there is an addition, to IAF, it needs to be a minimum of 5 squadrons, I specifically don't want a off the shelf system that will not be produced in India. I am ok paying 12 billion for the 36 as long as it includes setup of manufacturing facilty for the Rafale in India, and license to produce another 100 A/c's in India and whatever is the price for that.

-regards.

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## Taygibay

PARIKRAMA said:


> “*The French side is offering us 36 aircraft, complete with their weapons package, at around $8.9 billion (Rs59,600 crore),* *whereas we are looking at somewhere around a billion dollars less than what they are asking from us,” defence ministry sources told THE WEEK.* They said Modi and Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar wanted to buy the jets at prices lower than what had been offered in the previous tender scrapped by Modi. *India has asked France for add-ons such as helmet-mounted displays, American and Israeli missiles that can be fitted on to the aircraft, and advanced avionics and other systems. Sources said the add-ons would cost $2 billion extra and the weapons package, another $1 billion. *“



Let's learn to substract :

If 8.9 total - 2 for Indian add-ons - 1 weapons = 5.9 for 36 Rafales with the added ultra-high availability requirement.
With your "_vampiristic"_ 50% offsets clause, it's not entirely ridiculous!

If we suppose the reduction to happen, it's below 8B$. How about the add.18 of the MoU & rumours?
If those are in there, just shut up already, grab that deal; set up the extra units requirements tied to the
local production line growing in proportion and end over time with the same result as planned in MMRCA?



PARIKRAMA said:


> Dassault Aviation is also eyeing a ‘Make in India’ contract to produce 200 twin-engine combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force.



That should answer your answer @MilSpec mate!


MilSpec said:


> I do not wan't to see two squadrons of any new platform in the Indian airforce. If there is an addition, to IAF, it needs to be a minimum of 5 squadrons,



How does 200 sound? And made in India as per that article's explain on offsets? 

Let it unfold s'more; it's a saga not a sprint! How many Indians in the last olympic 100M final BTW?
Let's be honest, you guys are not the hurrying type. But it does fray the nerves of those expecting results ...


JK, great day all, Tay.

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## surya kiran

Taygibay said:


> How does 200 sound? And made in India as per that article's explain on offsets?



Its going to be in that area. Wait till the IN gets involved.

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> Tagging you folks too.. MilSpec Sir did raise a very solid point. What you guys feel about it? Essentially what he has written is a a beautiful solid point...



Its a fair point. However I personally feel IAF needs a Rafale class aircraft to safely hedge for multi-mission, multi role combat scenarios. Like say low flying ordinance delivery (radar evading strike) but ability to perform air dominance/interdiction at a moments notice too. The problem with MKI is its relatively optimized to do the latter given its basic airframe design....those large conventional wings (assets in air superiority) become problems in higher density air especially at high speeds (for sudden maneuvers and swing role transition).

It is definitely not a large gaping hole that IAF has if there is no rafale (MKI does the basics fine). But I personally want to see IAF always have 3 class of main combat aircraft: Light, Medium, Heavy to have the maximum options (and thus optimization) available for whatever mission comes its way. It will be good if this lines up to Tejas, Rafale, MKI in the coming years....with the others (Mig 29, M2000) providing the extra helping hand+numbers where needed till they are retired and next generation platforms come online for IAF.

Of course other doctrines are feasbile too...there is no end to discussing them.

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## Abingdonboy

MilSpec said:


> sanctioned number is 1.25 pilot to fighter, and currently it stands at 0.81. Who plans the sanctioned squadron strength for the IAF based on strategic roadmap, I am sure it's not the crpf or the railway police it must be the Air staff HQ of India. So when they plan for 42 sqdns and they are already running low on pilots despite the fact they are extremely low on squadron strength, then whose responsible for the gap? Will it be safe to assume it is Air staff HQ which cannot attract enough talent. So instead of solving a recruitment problem, we want to buy single seat fighters because we don't have enough pilots. Wonder if we use the same logic for Indian navy, what if the navy comes out tomorrow and says we are only going procure missile boats, because it takes 1/4th the crew to man a missile boat compared to a destroyer.
> Sorry bro but I don't buy this regressive logic at all, it makes for a good argument, but the fact remains essence of plan is to look ahead, not look behind. Let's not blame the two seat construction of MKI as a negative to cover the buffonery that goes on in Air Staff HQ.


A very fair point. And whilst it is abdunently clear that focusing on a single seat fighter just because you don't have enough pilots is the very definition of an a$$ backwards approach. That, said it is not a factor that can be easily ignored, I'm not saying it will play an overiding role but it is worth taking consideration of it. But given all the news during the MMRCA saga that the IAF wanted to increase the twin seat compliment of the eventual deal (from 2-3 per SQN to 6-7) I wouldn't say this factor plays too much into decsion making from the IAF's point of view. 




MilSpec said:


> Now to the idiotic proposition of SU30MKI' as solution - Chinese are ok with fielding Flankers against their most active potential theaters, so are the russians, IAF apparently is ok with fielding the Flankers for Air Sup, Strike, and maritime application, but when it comes to this mythical medium multirole, flankers are no good. Russians and chinese dont have a rafale, but they don't seem to be crying everyday for the requirement, Russians are ready to take on EFT/ Rafale/F15's/f16's/F/A18/Gripens still with the same Su30/Mig29 Combo, but somehow in Indian context, without the rafale, our security paradigm seems incomplete. Is there some special powers of the rafale that are not visible me.






MilSpec said:


> _MKI wont be able to handle "Deep Penetration Strike role"_.... lets dwell it little deeper into this.i have never been a big fan of the jaguar's combat performance, at the same time, there are very few aircrafts which have ever been engineered as well but I will come back to that a little later.
> This "Deep Penetration Strike" was coined by the IAF as a buzz word for medium range strike aircraft - there is no special requirement for deep Penetration Strike that a MKI cannot do..



Interestingly you have focused on A2A/Air Dominace here and no one is dusputing the capabilites of the MKI in this domain. That said, to claim the MKI is a perfect substitute for the Rafale in the strike role is very much stretching the truth IMHO sir. You have mentioned Russia, but they don't need the Su-27/30SM/35 to perform strike missions as they have the Su-34 that has been specifically designed (yes it is a Flanker derivative but nonetheless) for A2G/strike missions. The MKI simply isn't. It's airframe isn't suited for low level interdiction flights and its radar doesn't have the requiste terrain mapping modes.

Not only that, but the MKI has simply nothing that compares to the SPECTRA level of sensor fusion.




MilSpec said:


> It was designed to be a do it all platform, and it is exactly what it was designed to be, an Air Dominance Platform, and a bloody good one.


Exactly, and this is what the IAF refers to the MKI as- not a strike a/c.



Alas @MilSpec I am coming around to the idea that the money would be better spent on printers for all the good any conventional military systems will have for a nation plagued by a never ending supply of impotent leadership.

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## MilSpec

I am ok with paying whatever it needs to get 6 squadrons of a new platform being built in India, but paying an obscene amount for 36 units, is shooting yourself in the foot. Terrain mapping mode and low level flights is something I would avoid at all costs, I will keep all platforms away from shoulder fire altitudes. The benefit isn't as high as you think for low flight profiles, with the radars, aerostats, and Awacs these days. Lets face it , if need to fly in combat it going to be Heavy air interdiction air sup missions which will take the fight to the enemy. 




Abingdonboy said:


> A very fair point. And whilst it is abdunently clear that focusing on a single seat fighter just because you don't have enough pilots is the very definition of an a$$ backwards approach. That, said it is not a factor that can be easily ignored, I'm not saying it will play an overiding role but it is worth taking consideration of it. But given all the news during the MMRCA saga that the IAF wanted to increase the twin seat compliment of the eventual deal (from 2-3 per SQN to 6-7) I wouldn't say this factor plays too much into decsion making from the IAF's point of view.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly you have focused on A2A/Air Dominace here and no one is dusputing the capabilites of the MKI in this domain. That said, to claim the MKI is a perfect substitute for the Rafale in the strike role is very much stretching the truth IMHO sir. You have mentioned Russia, but they don't need the Su-27/30SM/35 to perform strike missions as they have the Su-34 that has been specifically designed (yes it is a Flanker derivative but nonetheless) for A2G/strike missions. The MKI simply isn't. It's airframe isn't suited for low level interdiction flights and its radar doesn't have the requiste terrain mapping modes.
> 
> Not only that, but the MKI has simply nothing that compares to the SPECTRA level of sensor fusion.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, and this is what the IAF refers to the MKI as- not a strike a/c.
> 
> 
> 
> Alas @MilSpec I am coming around to the idea that the money would be better spent on printers for all the good any conventional military systems will have for a nation plagued by a never ending supply of impotent leadership.

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## Abingdonboy

MilSpec said:


> I am ok with paying whatever it needs to get 6 squadrons of a new platform being built in India, but paying an obscene amount for 36 units, is shooting yourself in the foot.



Agreed sir, I am of the same mind- it should be 150+ Rafales or 0.

A final figure of 36 (or even 54 with 18 follow-ons) is a woefully sub optimal solution that fails to adress a single issue but actually ADDS huge problems to the IAF in the long term.

I don't understand the current leadership's game at all, to the public they are only stipulating this 36 figure (with the odd mention of 18 follow on units) but it is clear for all to see that the requirement is so much more than that- the IAF has offically stated they need at least 6 SQNs worth- so why keep up this pretence? Why not just admit they are trying to get the MMRCA through a different route? Are they REALLY that scared of being percieved to be copying UPA policies?



Dash said:


> However although I am not a big supporter of anything more than 72 Rafale and 60-100 FGFA.


So then how exactly would the IAF attain its 42 SQN sanctioned strength,that the Parliament standing commitee on defence itself has said should be 45 by 2025? Right now the IAF's fighter SQN strength stands at around 28-30, by 2022/3 the IAF will be down to 24/5 or so , 72 Rafales and 100 FGFA are around 10 SQNs worth of fighters, the IAF will have stood down more than that by 2025. And then from 2027- another round of "stand downs" begin as the MiG-29UPGs, Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s get to the end of their service lives.

When fighters being phased out > fighters being inducted then your force levels will drop and considering the IAF is ALREADY operating well below its SQN strength what is your prescription bro?



PARIKRAMA said:


> *Dassault Aviation is also eyeing a ‘Make in India’ contract to produce 200 twin-engine combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force.*


A very very odd comment. It almost makes out that the MoD has a seperate requirement in line with MMRCA de-linked from the 36 Rafale deal and this is what I picked up from the CEO of Boeing's statement about making the F-18 in India. He said over the next few years the MoD was looking to select a new fighter to be made in India and it also ties in with that random bit of news (that seemed to disappear) about a "MMRCA 2.0" where the MoD had begun the process of issuing a new RFI for a reboot of the process to meet the orginal requirements.

And then this article goes on to say, the point of the 36 was only to address the _immediate_ requirements of the IAF (a point Modi made at the time in Paris) but fails to elaborate what gap these units would bridging and what the long term solution would be (ie more Rafale/MKI/LCA).

Obviously if all goes well with Dassualt this will be the Rafale but is the MoD trying to play games and dangle that carrot for others? Haven't heard anything from the EFT camp, you'd have thought they would be wetting their pants with excitment to re-enter the fray.

@Levina @Parul @PARIKRAMA @Taygibay @anant_s @Skull and Bones @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ

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## Taygibay

I'll be blunt and say that I perceive a personal rivalry between Parrikar and Modi.
I believe that this situation even though modest, almost latent at present, is an
additional source of noise in the deliciously dazed and confused world of Indian media!

No offense, Tay.

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## Nilgiri

Taygibay said:


> a personal rivalry between Parrikar and Modi.



Huh? What makes you say that?

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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> I'll be blunt and say that I perceive a personal rivalry between Parrikar and Modi.
> I believe that this situation even though modest, almost latent at present, is an
> additional source of noise in the deliciously dazed and confused world of Indian media!
> 
> No offense, Tay.


Hmm, interesting, could you please expand on this a little sir? What do you base this perception on?

Was it after seeing this (watch from 1.36-  ):






(then 4.46, Modi can't wait to get away  )

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## Taygibay

They are not the same and both going places?
With one narrow hallway and one seat to fill?

The discrepancies between PM and MoD offices & statements have been clear since the Paris visit.
They were there before too. That's just on Rafale.

I also don't keep to mil matters and know of their respective political pasts.
Parrikar is both all-star player and potential thorn to Modi.
Elections never stop coming ...

G'day, Tay.

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## dadeechi

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Vauban @Taygibay @cerberus @Nilgiri @dadeechi
> Tagging you folks too.. MilSpec Sir did raise a very solid point. What you guys feel about it? Essentially what he has written is a a beautiful solid point...
> 
> BTW news about F18s again being offered under MII - is that you feel will help India with USA - Boeing and LM constant pressure perhaps will make Dassault agree to negotiations. Especially since they have just briefed IN about Rafale M in last few days of Jan 2016 for a potential Catobar ACC deal.
> 
> 
> or its an act of desperation like Gripen offers as you know all is over yet we should make some noise with hope for something extra ordinary.



Fact is whatever may be the reason, IAF are in love with RAFALEs.

I am confident that any alternative option would be fought by IAF tooth and nail.

From IAF perspective, worst scenario would be that govt would cap the RAFALEs at 36 and go for F-18s under MII.

I am cross posting my thoughts from the FGFA thread

https://defence.pk/threads/arming-i...ice-final-talks-on.420581/page-2#post-8130171

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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> I also don't keep to mil matters and know of their respective political pasts.
> Parrikar is both all-star player and potential thorn to Modi.
> Elections never stop coming ...


I could understand this and yes, this is the nature of politics, however Parrikar was hand picked by Modi to be in "his team" so I have to assume that this lessens the risk to Modi of Parrikar's "thorniness".



dadeechi said:


> From IAF perspective, worst scenario would be that govt would cap the RAFALEs at 36 and go for F-18s under MII.


Nightmare scenerio indeed but I can't see it happening. It's a case of either or, you can't have both now and certainly not in these quantities. The GoI would be leaving themselves to a COLLOSSAL scandel as soon as that CAG report hit the papers, this is the last thing this current leadership wants.

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## dadeechi

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @cerberus @dadeechi
> 
> I gave you guys the goodies a week back.. See here now..
> 
> I quote some excerpts from THE WEEK magazine
> 
> _France has agreed to include 50 per cent offsets (use of components made in India) as part of the deal. The two sides, however, are still fighting it out on the price issue. “*The French side is offering us 36 aircraft, complete with their weapons package, at around $8.9 billion (Rs59,600 crore),* *whereas we are looking at somewhere around a billion dollars less than what they are asking from us,” defence ministry sources told THE WEEK.* They said Modi and Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar wanted to buy the jets at prices lower than what had been offered in the previous tender scrapped by Modi. *India has asked France for add-ons such as helmet-mounted displays, American and Israeli missiles that can be fitted on to the aircraft, and advanced avionics and other systems. Sources said the add-ons would cost $2 billion extra and the weapons package, another $1 billion. *“The delay in finalising the deal for the last ten years has cost us dear, as we would be paying almost 30 per cent more money for buying only 36 aircraft,” said retired air marshal A.K. Singh.
> 
> A team led by Stephane Rebb, the French director-general (armament), had landed in Delhi almost a week before Hollande’s arrival. Rebb was involved in several rounds of negotiations with the Indian Contract Negotiations Committee, headed by Air Marshal R.K.S. Bhadauria. The talks focused on the technical and commercial aspects of the deal, but they failed to break the deadlock.
> 
> *To fulfil the offsets clause in the proposed deal, France agreed to invest half the worth of the project in India. This, sources say, could be in the defence, civilian aerospace and homeland security sectors. Dassault Aviation, which manufactures Rafale jets, is planning to set up a facility in India to manufacture parts of the combat aircraft and may help in the development of India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft project. “Setting up the facility to produce parts of the aircraft would not only help in reducing costs for us, but also allow us to fulfil offsets commitments,” said a French source involved in the negotiations. Dassault Aviation is also eyeing a ‘Make in India’ contract to produce 200 twin-engine combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force.*
> 
> According to retired air marshal R.K. Sharma, there was a need to go for a government-to-government deal for 36 aircraft instead of the previously planned 126 jets. “It was a much needed one, as the Indian Air Force was facing shortage of fighter aircraft and there was an urgent need to fill the gaps being created by the phasing out of older planes,” he told THE WEEK. According to Sharma, who was involved in the previous deal, the move to buy 36 Rafale jets would help the Air Force remain competent and combat-ready.
> 
> http://www.theweek.in/theweek/more/from-paris-to-pathankot.html
> 
> 
> View attachment 291433
> _
> 
> @Dash @Oracle 33




Your info has been spot on my friend.



Abingdonboy said:


> Nightmare scenerio indeed but I can't see it happening. It's a case of either or, you can't have both now and certainly not in these quantities. The GoI would be leaving themselves to a COLLOSSAL scandel as soon as that CAG report hit the papers, this is the last thing this current leadership wants.



I hear that F-18 MII talks are progressing very well. It seems like F/A-18 deal is bound to happen. What needs to be seen is if it would be at the expense of RAFALE or FGFA or not.

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## Oracle 33

What exactly are the modifications we are getting? this is getting more complicated each daily basis.

Lets have a fun bet and say what will be the deal price in the end? hehe

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## ultron

Man. This is the longest running deal in human history. 11 years and counting.


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## Dash

Abingdonboy said:


> So then how exactly would the IAF attain its 42 SQN sanctioned strength,that the Parliament standing commitee on defence itself has said should be 45 by 2025? Right now the IAF's fighter SQN strength stands at around 28-30, by 2022/3 the IAF will be down to 24/5 or so , 72 Rafales and 100 FGFA are around 10 SQNs worth of fighters, the IAF will have stood down more than that by 2025. And then from 2027- another round of "stand downs" begin as the MiG-29UPGs, Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s get to the end of their service lives.
> 
> When fighters being phased out > fighters being inducted then your force levels will drop and considering the IAF is ALREADY operating well below its SQN strength what is your prescription bro?



It cant be, simple and I certainly don't want to prescribe anything to a depleting force level by buying anything and everything in the market that bankrupts us. In one hand we don't want to be called as the largest arms importer and on the other we want to eat grass, still buy assuming we will need a 42 squadron operational squadron!
The reasons are simple yet ground breaking in nature.
1. We surely don't have the belly to buy and maintain a foreign fleet of 126 Rafale + 200 FGFA. One might question the coming in late in declaring the financials, but I and all of us have been blinded so far by the CNC, IAF, Saint Antony and all those who simply bought what IAF demanded by overlooking how deep is our pocket and how much we can spare for something like this.
2. a. The solution is to invest deep in home grown programs to arrest the declining strength.
b. Create an atmosphere where you and the OEM can attain a comfortable position to do something for us.
c. You have the time to do that, only because you are not going out towards an all out war against China and Pakistan where you will need a 55 squadron strength. to guard your borders.
3. Please a humble request to get over this mentality to buy as many planes we want to maintain some stupid parity.
4. I have a feeling that 72 Rafale is more than enough for a fighter which can be configured for many roles.
5. You are atleast maintaining some quality with one and quantity with another.

Bottom line - Buy some quality fighter, Fill the numbers with LCA, Mk 1, MK1a, MK2, AMCA.

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## surya kiran

Dash said:


> Bottom line - Buy some quality fighter, Fill the numbers with LCA, Mk 1, MK1a, MK2, AMCA.



Unless, the DRDO, ADA, HAL and IAF work together with a foreign partner for the AMCA, it is impossible to get the AMCA up. Only solution, work with the French and Japs to get the AMCA up.

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## Taygibay

Abingdonboy said:


> however Parrikar was hand picked by Modi to be in "his team" so I have to assume that this lessens the risk to Modi of Parrikar's "thorniness".



Political application of keep your enemy closer? 

 Tay.


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## Dash

surya kiran said:


> Unless, the DRDO, ADA, HAL and IAF work together with a foreign partner for the AMCA, it is impossible to get the AMCA up. Only solution, work with the French and Japs to get the AMCA up.



That could be done and that's the reason we are trying to make private players come to defence. Its a long process but it needs to be achieved.



Taygibay said:


> Parrikar is both all-star player and potential thorn to Modi.





Taygibay said:


> Political application of keep your enemy closer?



Parikar is following Modi's mandate. There is no such thing called as enemies and pricks between them.

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## Taygibay

Dash said:


> Parikar is following Modi's mandate. There is no such thing called as enemies and pricks between them.



I sort of infer from your answer that they are from your favoured side, Dash?
If so, know that I'm not attacking it in any way if so. These things are normal in that field.
I'm just voicing that personally I'm computing it as far as interference in our fave deal.

Not being allowed to vote for either, my opinion carries no further. 

Take care, Tay.


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## Dash

Taygibay said:


> I sort of infer from your answer that they are from your favoured side, Dash?
> If so, know that I'm not attacking it in any way if so. These things are normal in that field.
> I'm just voicing that personally I'm computing it as far as interference in our fave deal.
> 
> Not being allowed to vote for either, my opinion carries no further.
> 
> Take care, Tay.



Sir, My favoured side doesn't matter in the context of this discussion. I speak only after what I have "inferred" from the attitude of the above 2 from the whole game 

Its a logjam between IAF and GOI honestly. If you ask me, personally I can vouch that MOD and PMO are fighting against all odds towards an agenda which has a military,international political and domestic capability angle to it. According to my observation and I am sure any level headed person will agree that we have long delayed later two while addressing the former one and we (read as IAF) wants to proceed in that direction.
The friction that is happening is a result of many factors for which neither of them is to blame. However it is my understanding that only addressing one is no solution to this issue and somewhere it is supposed to start and I am happy that it has started. We would be uncomfortable and ask questions but ultimately it will be for a greater good.

And for the last line of yours, the world has moved from being transactional to personalization in the age of internet, so you have your vote in this global village whether you are allowed or not.


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## Taygibay

Now see Dash my food fellow, we have common ground to infer from after all it seems!

Parrikar is then acting IAF spokesman and Modi on foreign policy; the former cares for now
and the latter for the future. Fine, that's another part of politics that involves allies competing.
It all points to reasons why the two have been emitting out-of-phase information waves.

As for that pair being friends since you graciously invited me to the discussion, I have no doubt
that they are political chums but would either help the other hide the corpse? Best friends do!


All the best to you and yours, Tay.


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## Abingdonboy

Dash said:


> It cant be, simple and I certainly don't want to prescribe anything to a depleting force level by buying anything and everything in the market that bankrupts us. In one hand we don't want to be called as the largest arms importer and on the other we want to eat grass, still buy assuming we will need a 42 squadron operational squadron!
> The reasons are simple yet ground breaking in nature.


Lol, this again? By what logic will any number of Rafales/FGFA bankrupt India? 10% of the contract paid up front and a pay back period of at least 10 years, by the time India finishes paying for the Rafale it will be the 3rd largest economy in the world with a >$120BN/year defence budget. The Net Present Value of this deal is actually comparably minimal given India's expected future cash flows.

The most absurd part of all this is that this keeps getting repeated but year in year out the Military is RETURNING billions in unspent funds to the MoD but the notion that India can't afford such things remains.

https://defence.pk/threads/rs-37-00...et-remains-underutilized.420690/#post-8131046


India has enough money to pay for 150+ Rafales and 150 FGFAs without such purchases affecting any other program.



Dash said:


> 1. We surely don't have the belly to buy and maintain a foreign fleet of 126 Rafale + 200 FGFA



Haha, but India can afford to operate 300+ MKIs with FAR higher life cycle costs? The Rafales (like almost all Western products) are far more efficent than their Russian counter parts and any intial premium paid will be more than offset from life cycle cost savings. Everytime the IAF flies their Rafales they would be saving money vis a vis their MKIs (the MKI's cost >$20,000 per flight hour, the Rafale is around $14,000). The MKIs also go through spares like nobody's buisness.

@Taygibay @PARIKRAMA @anant_s @MilSpec

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## MilSpec

Abingdonboy said:


> Lol, this again? By what logic will any number of Rafales/FGFA bankrupt India? 10% of the contract paid up front and a pay back period of at least 10 years, by the time India finishes paying for the Rafale it will be the 3rd largest economy in the world with a >$120BN/year defence budget. The Net Present Value of this deal is actually comparably minimal given India's expected future cash flows.
> 
> The most absurd part of all this is that this keeps getting repeated but year in year out the Military is RETURNING billions in unspent funds to the MoD but the notion that India can't afford such things remains.
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/rs-37-000-crore-of-defence-ministry’s-modernization-budget-remains-underutilized.420690/#post-8131046
> 
> 
> India has enough money to pay for 150+ Rafales and 150 FGFAs without such purchases affecting any other program.
> 
> 
> 
> Haha, but India can afford to operate 300+ MKIs with FAR higher life cycle costs? The Rafales (like almost all Western products) are far more efficent than their Russian counter parts and any intial premium paid will be more than offset from life cycle cost savings. Everytime the IAF flies their Rafales they would be saving money vis a vis their MKIs (the MKI's cost >$20,000 per flight hour, the Rafale is around $14,000). The MKIs also go through spares like nobody's buisness.
> 
> @Taygibay @PARIKRAMA @anant_s @MilSpec


sure. I have no problem in paying as long as we know what 250 million/ ac brings to the table. especially when the fly away cost is around 105 mil, what does that additional 145 million consist of? 145 million at 20k/hr of op cost brings more than 7250 hrs of flight time, as I mentioned somewhere, 1500 hrs is 10 to 14 years on a MKI, imagine how many years is 7250 hrs of flight time.

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## SarthakGanguly

MilSpec said:


> sure. I have no problem in paying as long as we know what 250 million/ ac brings to the table. especially when the fly away cost is around 105 mil, what does that additional 145 million consist of? 145 million at 20k/hr of op cost brings more than 7250 hrs of flight time, as I mentioned somewhere, 1500 hrs is 10 to 14 years on a MKI, imagine how many years is 7250 hrs of flight time.


Can you tell me what are we going to do with the planes anyway?

Other than bragging and flying in parades and countless exercises. It is clear that we don't need the armed forces anyway.

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## Abingdonboy

MilSpec said:


> sure. I have no problem in paying as long as we know what 250 million/ ac brings to the table. especially when the fly away cost is around 105 mil, what does that additional 145 million consist of? 145 million at 20k/hr of op cost brings more than 7250 hrs of flight time, as I mentioned somewhere, 1500 hrs is 10 to 14 years on a MKI, imagine how many years is 7250 hrs of flight time.


This logic only makes sense if the true figure of the Rafale really is is $250 million- which I simply don't beleive whatsoever sir. There is far too much misinformation on this subject as it stands, projections range from $108 million to $333 million!

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## MilSpec

SarthakGanguly said:


> Can you tell me what are we going to do with the planes anyway?
> 
> Other than bragging and flying in parades and countless exercises. It is clear that we don't need the armed forces anyway.



You know my views on the subject, Spinelessness of the people and there leaders aside, why should my pilots suffer, my mandate is to give them the best platform we can afford to give them a fighting chance in case they ever need one.

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## Abingdonboy

SarthakGanguly said:


> Can you tell me what are we going to do with the planes anyway?
> 
> Other than bragging and flying in parades and countless exercises. It is clear that we don't need the armed forces anyway.


The ONLY positive I can say is that they at least make the Pakistanis/Chinese think twice before conventionally waging war with India, that is about their only use.

Other than that, they are fancy display machines in the eyes of the Indian leadership.

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## MilSpec

Abingdonboy said:


> This logic only makes sense if the true figure of the Rafale really is is $250 million- which I simply don't beleive whatsoever sir. There is far too much misinformation on this subject as it stands, projections range from $108 million to $333 million!


36 platforms for 9 billion? If I am not mistaken that is 250 million/ ac (no "sir" thing please)

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## Abingdonboy

MilSpec said:


> 36 platforms for 9 billion? If I am not mistakes that is 250 million/ ac


Indeed, but where did this $9 billion figure appear from? In the past few weeks I have seen 36 jets for $7BN-12BN and thus the derived unit cost has vaired signifcantly within the range I have stated. I won't cast judgement until I hear an offical line on the project cost from the Indian Govt.


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## SarthakGanguly

Abingdonboy said:


> The ONLY positive I can say is that they at least make the Pakistanis/Chinese think twice before conventionally waging war with India, that is about their only use.
> 
> Other than that, they are fancy display machines in the eyes of the Indian leadership views them.


True. But I think they don't take them very seriously either.

The weapons, the training of the crew is fine. But if any electrical machine is never given any power, they just remain show-pieces for unltra nationalist kids to beat their own chests in pride. They serve no real purpose.

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## Abingdonboy

SarthakGanguly said:


> True. But I think they don't take them very seriously either.


Yup, because in the Indian leadership ( no matter what their rhetoric or poltical persuasion) they have known qualities- impotency, appeasment, ignorance and cowardice. Forget China and Pakistan, even Nepal, the Maldives and Sri Lankans don't fear India and think they can push it around.

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## PARIKRAMA

SarthakGanguly said:


> Can you tell me what are we going to do with the planes anyway?
> 
> Other than bragging and flying in parades and countless exercises. It is clear that we don't need the armed forces anyway.



I agree with you as our ultimate weapons of mass destruction is DOSSIERs

We can bomb any country across the world with so much quantity of dossiers that it's sheer weight coupled with falling from high altitude can act as bunker buster bomb. Best part is it leaves no mushroom cloud but its effect is far far lethal.

The country who suffers such bombardment has to undertake a massive clean up to clear such dossiers and casualties sufferred primarily out of laughing too long after seeing dossiers in turn impacts the nation and its economy.

Those dossiers actually cripples a nation.

Now why do we need jets? Well to carry tonnes of dossiers.. Come on .. Common sense ... Different jets for different roles to deliver dossiers.. 

You need to learn this quick.. Or else you can be a victim of dossier bombings too.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> I agree with you as our ultimate weapons of mass destruction is DOSSIERs
> 
> We can bomb any country across the world with so much quantity of dossiers that it's sheer weight coupled with falling from high altitude can act as bunker buster bomb. Best part is it leaves no mushroom cloud but its effect is far far lethal.
> 
> The country who suffers such bombardment has to undertake a massive clean up to clear such dossiers and casualties sufferred primarily out of laughing too long after seeing dossiers in turn impacts the nation and its economy.
> 
> Those dossiers actually cripples a nation.
> 
> Now why do we need jets? Well to carry tonnes of dossiers.. Come on .. Common sense ... Different jets for different roles to deliver dossiers..
> 
> You need to learn this quick.. Or else you can be a victim of dossier bombings too.


The sad part is how this is meant to satire but it is basically the reality. Think about how much the world respects Israel- a nation whose entire population is less than a tier-2 city in India, this is because Israel has consistently shown it will stand up for itself when required to do so.

On the other hand, a nation of 1.3 billion people is constantly on its knees and a laughing stock on the global stage where anyone from Nepal, BD, Pakistan, China, Mynamar, Sri Lanka, Maldives and even Italy thinks they can push it around- for good reason, they normally can.

@Levina @MilSpec @Star Wars @ranjeet @arp2041 @Unknowncommando @mkb95 @Parul @nair @Bang Galore @Guynextdoor2 @anant_s

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## Dash

Abingdonboy said:


> *Lol, this again? *By what logic will any number of Rafales/FGFA bankrupt India? 10% of the contract paid up front and a pay back period of at least 10 years



That bold part sounds very fanboyish...There are 2 scenarios here.
1. Buy the plane @ $250 million with full weapons package with training, spares and support included, just like the Emiratis are doing. 

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/international/mideast-africa/2016/01/23/uae-eyes-moving-mirage-fighters-iraqs-kurdish-areas-procuring-rafales/79108590/



> The UAE source stated that the expected cost of each aircraft is expected to be around $250 million for a total cost of $15 billion


 

According to this source


> To facilitate the Rafale deal, the government has taken over the 'airco' cost of training, maintenance support and other military-provided services to reduce the cost for the UAE


In a way it makes me think, that the $ 250 million which UAE is paying, includes a sweetener provided by French govt which has helped them get the costs brought down by 10%. 

Now that's without any offset/MII, additional fittings and re-engineering that would go into IAF's deal. Makes the cost an astronomical $300 million. 
That's the cost of our "Requirement" and not the "Plane" is people need to realize and scaling it upto 126 fighters or more will further escalate the cost. Although the offset value remains the same, but the amount will be higher.
Looking at what we need is what we are paying for. I for once will not have a second thought to squeeze this deal than making it a white elephant for me. To me, value buying is more important than, just satisfying my ego..




Abingdonboy said:


> by the time India finishes paying for the Rafale it will be the 3rd largest economy



That's pure hypothetical and only if we are short-sighted then will overlook its present over a fantasized future. Thinking let me buy a Lada today assuming I will be rich in future.



Abingdonboy said:


> Military is RETURNING billions in unspent funds to the MoD but the notion that India can't afford such things remains.



IA has about 27% share in returning the money. Not the IAF or the IN. Top it up with new planning commission burden with OROP and more headache for liquid availability for capital expenditure and you realise this is not a surplus money in any term.



Abingdonboy said:


> India has enough money to pay for 150+ Rafales and 150 FGFAs without such purchases affecting any other program



No. It doesn't...For such undervalued expenditures. I know what you will say next. The answer is add L.C.A. Some quality and more quantity.




Taygibay said:


> Now see Dash my food fellow, we have common ground to infer from after all it seems!
> 
> Parrikar is then acting IAF spokesman and Modi on foreign policy; the former cares for now
> and the latter for the future. Fine, that's another part of politics that involves allies competing.
> It all points to reasons why the two have been emitting out-of-phase information waves.
> 
> As for that pair being friends since you graciously invited me to the discussion, I have no doubt
> that they are political chums but would either help the other hide the corpse? Best friends do!
> 
> 
> All the best to you and yours, Tay.



Again, you got it somewhat wrong. IAF v/s MOD and MOS...Our DefMin has become a sandwitch but he is doing exceptionally good so far. Its the IAF which has got its priorities mixed for quite sometime but that requires another thread for any justification or explanation.

Edit:- @PARIKRAMA Do me a favour. I have read somewhere that we have to pay 10% advance and 50% of the value in some year. Can you confirm this or dig up some article about if true.


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## Dash

MilSpec said:


> 36 platforms for 9 billion? If I am not mistaken that is 250 million/ ac (no "sir" thing please)





Abingdonboy said:


> Indeed, but where did this $9 billion figure appear from? In the past few weeks I have seen 36 jets for $7BN-12BN and thus the derived unit cost has vaired signifcantly within the range I have stated. I won't cast judgement until I hear an offical line on the project cost from the Indian Govt.



$9 billion is last offered by French and India is negotiating for $8 billion.


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## PARIKRAMA

Dash said:


> Edit:- @PARIKRAMA Do me a favour. I have read somewhere that we have to pay 10% advance and 50% of the value in some year. Can you confirm this or dig up some article about if true.



I had said the following as told by source
15% contract signing but India is looking at 50% advance payment to facilitate the offset implementation and Make in India Rafale line in India


This is what print media has been carrying
_
"At least 50 per cent advance will have to be made, including 15 per cent immediate payment," the sources said_

Its carried by PTI and hence multiple media quotes the same line/
French have marginally reduced Rafale price: Sources - The Economic Times

French have marginally reduced the price of Rafale planes: Govt sources | The Indian Express



++

Something more interesting

Excerpts from an interview

*Rafale deal will be better on price and delivery: French Ambassador Richier*



SUHASINI HAIDAR
February 3, 2016 02:03 IST 

*Some would say that the pricing for a deal like this is not just a piece of the puzzle or the last mile. The pricing is the most important part, if the two sides don’t agree on pricing, what then?*
I’m quite hopeful they will. Of course, the price is important, but what you must look at, is that the two countries are embarking in a cooperation that will last decades, fourty years, maybe more. *There is an expectation from India that there will be ‘Make in India’ component in all future partnerships for defence aerospace, and yes this is going to happen.** As this constitutes deep partnership in this area of aerospace, we are going to see something that has never been done before either by France or by India. So we are not talking just about money*. *Money is the last piece in the IGA puzzle, but when it is completed it will be a very large, very ambitious project. The money should not overshadow the strategic element of this defence partnership*.

*Yes, but in a way it has already, by holding up the IGA. Officials in the government say the price of the Rafale, which will be finalised will be lower than the price discussed during the previous UPA regime, can you confirm that?*
*We are committed and are on the way to demonstrate that the conditions will be better (than before). Better doesn’t just mean lower price, but additional elements. We are going to make it better on all fronts.*

*Could you explain that…are you saying the price of the plane may be lower, or the offsets will be reduced?*
*The price will be better, the conditions for delivery will be better, each and every part of the deal will be better than before.*

*You said it could be a few weeks, President Hollande said a couple of days….Realistically, how long do you see this price negotiation go on?*
Let’s say between a few days and a few weeks. To be specific, we need to conclude negotiations, and then the Indian government will have to go over its processes for the agreement. So you have to put both sides together. If we talk about the conclusion, where we are involved, I think about* four weeks* is reasonable. *And then there is an Indian procedure, which is not in their hands, over which we have no control.*

*You said much depends on the Indian government. The Rafale deal is unique because this is the first time a deal of this nature has been announced by the Prime Minister himself, and many of the details of this deal have been discussed by the Prime Minister and President directly. The invitation to Mr. Hollande was seen as a signal that the IGA was ready to sign. Given that there is such a high-level backing to this deal, has the time taken become a test-case for how quickly India can deliver?*
Well, we have a direction given by our leadership that we have to work out sequentially. *There are legal issues, technical issues; supply protocol given these planes will be sold in ‘flyaway’ condition. All these take time, and negotiation of price doesn’t start on day 1, so it’s very premature to say this is a stumbling block. Of course, the negotiations could be quicker, but it is completely wrong to draw any link between the President’s visit and the conclusion of the IGA. We do not negotiate contracts under pressure of time and neither does India. It is not because there is a visit that negotiations can be accelerated.*

Rafale deal will be better on price and delivery: French Ambassador Richier - The Hindu
*++*
MII confirmed again by French ambassador.
MII confirmed by Prez Hollande before coming to India also

Hindu still stands by Dinakar Peri statement which is inline with my source based post here
_Efforts were on to reduce the price per aircraft by 20 per cent, which is now over Euro 100 million or Rs. 800 crore, along with the weapons package._

_In an indication of the progress, French President Francois Hollande said in Chandigarh on Sunday that one of the main aims of his visit was to “implement the decisions taken during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France.” 

“The Rafale is a major project for India and France. It will pave the way for an unprecedented industrial and technological cooperation, including ‘Make in India’, for the next 40 years. Agreeing on the technicalities of this arrangement obviously takes time, but we are on the right track,” he said in an interview to PTI.
_
Hollande in India: Rafale deal likely to see some progress - The Hindu



PARIKRAMA said:


> *Money is the last piece in the IGA puzzle, but when it is completed it will be a very large, very ambitious project. The money should not overshadow the strategic element of this defence partnership*.



@Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Vauban

+++

oh forgot to add

Some folks in the supply chain side who are in the loop about the deal says that they are feeling very positive and are kind of satisfied. They state that based on discussion and finalization, its not a contract but CONTRACTS (plural) which is done and dusted. They said a similar term of association which will last over next 4-5 decades and strengthening Inde French relationship


++

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## Dash

PARIKRAMA said:


> “The Rafale is a major project for India and France. It will pave the way for an unprecedented industrial and technological cooperation, including ‘Make in India’, for the next 40 years. Agreeing on the technicalities of this arrangement obviously takes time, but we are on the right track,” he said in an interview to PTI.


That's what I have been stating all along. No disagreements whatsoever.




PARIKRAMA said:


> This is what print media has been carrying





PARIKRAMA said:


> _"At least 50 per cent advance will have to be made, including 15 per cent immediate payment," the sources said_



That's for @Abingdonboy who was saying that 10% of cost at the time of signing and rest spread across years of delivery. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> Efforts were on to reduce the price per aircraft by 20 per cent, which is now over Euro 100 million or Rs. 800 crore, along with the weapons package.



This needs to be read correctly, $112 million (Euro 100 million) is only the fly away cost and weapons, support, maintenance extra. The over reduction of 20% is on total cost that will be paid including everything ( I mean everything). Out of which some reduction close to 10% has been achieved and another 10% is left.

Any mods here? Lets merge this thread to Rafale sticky? I cant see any mods now..
@PARIKRAMA do you see any mods?

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## PARIKRAMA

Dash said:


> This needs to be read correctly, $112 million (Euro 100 million) is only the fly away cost and weapons, support, maintenance extra. The over reduction of 20% is on total cost that will be paid including everything ( I mean everything). Out of which some reduction close to 10% has been achieved and another 10% is left.





PARIKRAMA said:


> Efforts were on to reduce the price per aircraft by 20 per cent, which is now over Euro 100 million or Rs. 800 crore, along with the weapons package.



Euro INR is around 72-75. Present its 75.75
It was around 72+ when Prez Hollande came to India

800 crs = Euro 111 Mn

Source indicated India asking for Rs 650 Crs for these 36 jets and MII at Rs 500-550 Crs. It may be that with reduction implies around the cost of jets+weapons at around Rs 720 Crs or Euro 100 Mn and Dollar would be USD 108 Mn. Thats why Jets + weapons from initial Euro 4Bn is now being quoted Euro 3.6 Bn.

@waz @Oscar @WAJsal @HRK 
Can you guys pls merge this thread with rafale sticky

Sorry for the inconvenience and thanks in advance...

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## Dash

PARIKRAMA said:


> Source indicated India asking for Rs 650 Crs for these 36 jets and MII at Rs 500-550 Crs


MII @ 500 corers is too much to be 50% or I am reading it wrong?



PARIKRAMA said:


> Rs 720 Crs or Euro 100 Mn and Dollar would be USD 108 Mn. Thats why Jets + weapons from initial Euro 4Bn is now being quoted Euro 3.6 Bn


Yes, 720 corers amounts to another 10% reduction. But I doubt it. With French committing UAE @ 250 million, the chances are less, but still workable according to the above interview. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> Can you guys pls merge this thread with rafale sticky
> 
> Sorry for the inconvenience and thanks in advance...



Thank you

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## PARIKRAMA

Dash said:


> MII @ 500 corers is too much to be 50% or I am reading it wrong?



Thats actually based on localisation elements + Human capital costs reduction.
The insider reports says Rafales produced at Merignac plant + supply chain uses 6000 people and with production increased from 1-3 planes a month the number goes up to 9000 people and almost 40-50% jump in human capital costs.
So a line in India will ensure a straight forward reduction of around ~10-15% owing to human costs. but that will be visible as we approach the Break even value in quantity for the assembly line Euro 3Bn approx line and localisation via OEMs setting shops under MII. After all its a supply chain part also we want shifted to India.

So the cost ranges from Rs 500 Crs for almost 200 jets to Rs 540 Crs for 144-150 odd jets to Rs 600 Crs for almost 90 Jets to Rs 650 Crs for approx 50-60 Jets

This is per jet cost + weapons as negotiated price is around Rs 720 Crs. Imagine if the cost is say reduced by 10% more or original 20% reduction sought by India on Rs 800 Crs then the price works out to be Rs 800-160=640 Crs

Thats why if you consider the inflationary pressure + commodities price spiral and consider a slack % price over these quoted numbers, the deal size has to be much bigger and closer to 200 or more to see that we suffer minimal price revision upwards and ensure a near about 10+ years of production post plant being online. As longer timeline sees the benefit of localisation and inversely negates the inflationary pressure on prices marginally.



Dash said:


> Yes, 720 corers amounts to another 10% reduction. But I doubt it. With French committing UAE @ 250 million, the chances are less, but still workable according to the above interview.



720 Crs or Euro 100 Mn is plane+weapons

Add in infrastructure+training+spares for 5 years+Total cost of ownership+MRO setup+ etc etc it should be another similar amount or may be 10-20% less.. thus that should be Euro 3.4-3.5 Bn or another Euro 80-90 Mn per jet when we divide it by just 36 . that adds up to Euro 180-190 Mn.

For UAE or Qatar the number of base remains fixed and so is the fleet. Thus a direct division of USD 15Bn by 60 jets gives you all inclusive USD 250 Mn like price tag. And since they dont plan for localisation or local production these costs are fixed in nature,

In our case, these costs will come down as we start using more bases. In fact, there are many Mig 21/27 bases infra which can be either used by LCA or Rafales with minimum modification. This implies a further cost reduction over a larger fleet.

That is why we need a large MII part. a typical benefit which we derive from having a large 272 Su 30MKI where such costs are divided by numbers and bases.



Dash said:


> Thank you


You are welcome

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## Dash

PARIKRAMA said:


> This is per jet cost + weapons as negotiated price is around Rs 720 Crs. Imagine if the cost is say reduced by 10% more or original 20% reduction sought by India on Rs 800 Crs then the price works out to be Rs 800-160=640 Crs



I will make a small adjustment there. We are not likely to see a 10% reduction in Unit production cost. The cost reduction will only happen around 2% in weapons and 8% in support and maintenance, depending on the terms we both agree (blurry as of now, so to say).

In a most likely scenario, I see this.

In present scenario - $250 million is for each AC, including everything+ 10% reduction from original price
now- Further reduction of 10%, not on flyaway cost (note that the Unit program value for Rafale is @ ~$140 million
So - $250 million- $110 million= $140 million - (10% of $140 million)= $ 126 million

Total cost now comes after 10% reduction is 126+110= $236 million. Total cost of the deal to $ 8.5 billion.
That's my estimate. And I feel that's what France will settle for. Anything beyond that, I have no hopes.
Note that I have not considered the support and weapons cost split in my calculation. 




PARIKRAMA said:


> Thats why if you consider the inflationary pressure + commodities price spiral and consider a slack % price over these quoted numbers, the deal size has to be much bigger and closer to 200 or more to see that we suffer minimal price revision upwards and ensure a near about 10+ years of production post plant being online. As longer timeline sees the benefit of localisation and inversely negates the inflationary pressure on prices marginally.



IMHO, the numbers will increase, from both economical and military POV. But as drastic as 200 seems far fetched at the moment and I wont bet it like Su 30 as French and Russians are two different people when it comes to business.




PARIKRAMA said:


> For UAE or Qatar the number of base remains fixed and so is the fleet. Thus a direct division of USD 15Bn by 60 jets gives you all inclusive USD 250 Mn like price tag. And since they dont plan for localisation or local production these costs are fixed in nature



We have the same price and we know French have categorically denied any further reduction from 250 figure as this will damage their deal with UAE.



PARIKRAMA said:


> In our case, these costs will come down as we start using more bases. In fact, there are many Mig 21/27 bases infra which can be either used by LCA or Rafales with minimum modification. This implies a further cost reduction over a larger fleet



Not always, more bases doesn't always translate to cheaper support. Sometimes it inversely proportional.
However for Rafale we are asking for 2 support stations at 2 bases. Which is a good idea.

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## airmarshal

I think India plans to negotiate for another twenty years.


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## kaykay

airmarshal said:


> I think India plans to negotiate for another twenty years.


Or may be even more but again its our concern. May be you should show some concern about dead J-10 deal...ain't it?

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## Ankit Kumar

If they are negotiating, and keep negotiating..... why not negotiate on one point? 
That is.... some Mirage 2000 free from French inventories? I mean only the aircrafts, we are willing to pay for the upgrades.......

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## Taygibay

Dash said:


> Our DefMin has become a sandwitch but he is doing exceptionally good so far. Its the IAF which has got its priorities mixed for quite sometime but that requires another thread for any justification or explanation.



Well, I was alive, aware and interested for the last two decades regarding mil planes in Bharat ...
so I'll have to disagree mate!
The IAF's priorities never wavered : it wants flocking X-wing starfighters ... to blast Chengdu deathstars with!
A long time ago, a program was set to make them for it in India ... that wavered! Unfinished ...
Then a competition with more arms than Shiva, all tied behind her back for kicks, was opened
to buy starfighters from elsewhere to plug the gap and that wavered to death.
We've got the starfighters; are you rebels?

Sadly, this breaks down your myth of saint Manny ( you must have him confused with his predecessor ).
Parrikar has been doing a sorry job at communicating over that deal, period!
While Bharati media are one of the most wildly extrapolating bunch of weirdos thinking themselves wise
ever seen, in the case of your present MoD, it was not from journo to journo that reports varied but from
interview to interview! He was surprised by the very GtoGovt deal in Paris, he said more Sukhois, more
Tejas and once possibly more Rafale over time, he plays hardball as Modi sweetens things by calling
Hollande directly and so on and etc. The clear impression is that he is limit out of the loop to be honest!

By comparison, I dare you to find a dissension in terms and meaning between Le Drian and his Prez!
In France, the system puts the president in charge of defence and foreign relations. Those are his pre-
rogatives. As such, he loftily lords over the governmentat large but Le Drian and Fabius are his men!
The quality of the relationship shows in the unified expression of will.
( Sometimes, it falters between MoD & FRmin though; boys will be boys and compete with each other. )

He should be a sandwich part ( That *t* typo was magistral BTW! ) as the butter is at the heart of one, the element
by which the meat ( IAF ) is kept fresh within the confines of the bread ( Central govt will & moneys )!
A MoDs first duty is to the country by means of the armed forces, whims of central babus should be third.
Had he been in that position that he should have faced-off with Modi if opposed to Rafale, encouraged
the process if a fan or apply discreet internal pressure if uncertain. He choose to do it all in fine which
makes no sense.
Typical press conference by now :
"I'm happy to report that we'll have to buy more of that entirely too expensive aircraft that I decided the
IAF wanted for bad reasons although they'll also get more LCAs for the same ones. ...
But worry not my friends for there's another press conference in 2 days and I'll report the opposite!
Go MKIs!"
​I'm sorry but I really am not a fan! This would not matter if he was consistent, he's not!
And thinking as an Indian for a minute, between Modi IAF and Parrikar, the latter is the most expandable!

But you're right that it leads out of aircraft deals so let's leave it be.
All the best to you and yours, Tay.

P.S. All puns are intended and still just for kicks, so are typos for this once ... if any.

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## Taygibay

In a separate answer to both Dash and Abingdon who've been haggling,
the _s_ at contracts is normal for a product like the Rafale but also a marker of strategic ties.

Examples of each :
Within the GIE Rafale, there are different suppliers that all converge on Dassault per unit ...
but keep separate timelines and thus tabs. A bolt manufacturer for fuselage wing junctions
only feeds the main assembly line. A radar or weapons maker in reverse will feed the armed
forces of the client directly for years after the buy. The former is included once in cost while
the latter does support & is expected to receive new orders over the service life of the aircraft.
The big ones sign associated contracts especially if, as is the case, huge off-sets are included.

Outside the GIE Rafale, there are valid reasons to spread off-sets if a strategic partnership exists.
The Raffy is a mature product. To get 50% off-sets, you'd need to buy 50% of total production.
Total production overall in history? The present number prior to India is between 228 and 273
as we await the next French order/s. Plus options, etc but without any new deal.
Minimum buy is thus at 114 for a full Indian co-localisation.
Yes, except that ... if we are partners, while unable to share direct work on that one program,
we can share work elsewhere since we sign deals in so many fields and ventures. For instance,
the 50% off the Raffy deal would rationally be limited to say 25% easy to implement and maintain.
Meanwhile, 5% can be found in the nuc plants as either reduction of price or better workshare
for the Indian facilities. That is to be negotiated first and foremost by the French govt as a form
of arbitration between the corporations involved, some private as Dassault, some with control
investments as Thales and some public as Areva. Then proposals are put forth to Delhi-Modi!
The same goes for ToT : a rumour has it that we suddenly discovered that some AIP patents
could actually be shared with you guys for example ... about at your last Republic Day's time!

You can imagine how far reaching this becomes in ToT in fact. If we have full tech and you none,
the plant in India will provide such basic workforce that nothoing but good work ethics will be gained
as you work for us. But if a project is open to collaboration, things change! Let's suppose that
within the AMCA project, some pieces of the puzzle involve on-going source study programs
France is looking at, what is commonly called technological bricks. A joint venture to make that
part is interesting strategically. In this case, ToT will be much higher. And surprisingly, there is
yet another level of ToT. Dassault Systèmes AKA 3DS has 5 locations in India.
Dassault Aircraft Services India Pvt. Ltd.
Dassault House

A-280 Defense Colony
New Delhi 110 024
Tél. : +91 112 465 24 65​Work for the future on products that are used by everyone is being done in Bharat too :
3DPLM Software

and I do mean everyone : Boeing, Bombardier Aéronautique, Dassault Aviation, SNECMA, Airbus, Airbus Helicopters, Thales, Safran, SONACA, Jet Aviation, Liebherr Aerospce, Zodiac Aerospace, Embraer, Astrium, Groupe Bénéteau, Meyer Werft, US Navy for its first computer designed sub USS Virginia (SSN-774), Frank Gehry, Microcar, Michelin, Renault, Renault Sport F1, PSA, BMW, Daimler, Toyota, Honda, Porsche, Audi, Mygale, Goodyear, Carat Security Group, Autoliv, Valeo, Plastic Omnium, Faurecia, Renault Trucks, Alstom, Bombardier, CAF, Swatch Group, Nokia, LG, Thales, Arc International, Rotarex, Education National, CERN, Fermilab, CNRS, Iter, Hydro-Québec, Alstom Power Bergeron, Areva, Nexter are all clients of Catia.​
In such a venture if somewhat further away from jets themselves, backlog of knowledge is relatively unimportant
as the field is new and creates its own solutions. Bright young minds are free to blossom which may very well be
the best form of ToT possible. They'll help design the tools that design the AMCA.

Now that we've seen the options, we can imagine the subtleties involved, right?
Almost none of which will ever be uttered save behind closed doors, away from
half-deaf reporters concentrated on citing double the price to show India to be big ...

Keep calm guys or when the feast is finally served, you'll be in the ICU with acute indigestion,  Tay.

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## Dash

Taygibay said:


> Well, I was alive, aware and interested for the last two decades regarding mil planes in Bharat ...
> so I'll have to disagree mate!
> The IAF's priorities never wavered : it wants flocking X-wing starfighters ... to blast Chengdu deathstars with!
> A long time ago, a program was set to make them for it in India ... that wavered! Unfinished ...
> Then a competition with more arms than Shiva, all tied behind her back for kicks, was opened
> to buy starfighters from elsewhere to plug the gap and that wavered to death.
> We've got the starfighters; are you rebels?
> 
> Sadly, this breaks down your myth of saint Manny ( you must have him confused with his predecessor ).
> Parrikar has been doing a sorry job at communicating over that deal, period!
> While Bharati media are one of the most wildly extrapolating bunch of weirdos thinking themselves wise
> ever seen, in the case of your present MoD, it was not from journo to journo that reports varied but from
> interview to interview! He was surprised by the very GtoGovt deal in Paris, he said more Sukhois, more
> Tejas and once possibly more Rafale over time, he plays hardball as Modi sweetens things by calling
> Hollande directly and so on and etc. The clear impression is that he is limit out of the loop to be honest!
> 
> By comparison, I dare you to find a dissension in terms and meaning between Le Drian and his Prez!
> In France, the system puts the president in charge of defence and foreign relations. Those are his pre-
> rogatives. As such, he loftily lords over the governmentat large but Le Drian and Fabius are his men!
> The quality of the relationship shows in the unified expression of will.
> ( Sometimes, it falters between MoD & FRmin though; boys will be boys and compete with each other. )
> 
> He should be a sandwich part ( That *t* typo was magistral BTW! ) as the butter is at the heart of one, the element
> by which the meat ( IAF ) is kept fresh within the confines of the bread ( Central govt will & moneys )!
> A MoDs first duty is to the country by means of the armed forces, whims of central babus should be third.
> Had he been in that position that he should have faced-off with Modi if opposed to Rafale, encouraged
> the process if a fan or apply discreet internal pressure if uncertain. He choose to do it all in fine which
> makes no sense.
> Typical press conference by now :
> "I'm happy to report that we'll have to buy more of that entirely too expensive aircraft that I decided the
> IAF wanted for bad reasons although they'll also get more LCAs for the same ones. ...
> But worry not my friends for there's another press conference in 2 days and I'll report the opposite!
> Go MKIs!"
> ​I'm sorry but I really am not a fan! This would not matter if he was consistent, he's not!
> And thinking as an Indian for a minute, between Modi IAF and Parrikar, the latter is the most expandable!
> 
> But you're right that it leads out of aircraft deals so let's leave it be.
> All the best to you and yours, Tay.
> 
> P.S. All puns are intended and just for kicks, so are typos for this once ... if any.



I agree,Parikar was dilly dallying like a newcomer to a monstrous deal that hasn't been cracked for a decade now. But we can spare him considering the fact that he is no position aware of the diplomatic coup Modi was trying to score , made him say such. 

But saying something is better than saying nothing at all  At least we gotta know what was IAFs position on this deal.

The surprise came to all of us and him not being privy to an affair like this. However, we can see how he has managed himself post the declaration of the it's 36 deal in France.

The deal was made complicated by everybody who handled it before. this govt has made us know the real deal to our masquerade heads forced by IAF and th bureaucracy.

 Your being there statement didn't help the argument apart fromasking me to accept the whole post from face value. 



Taygibay said:


> Keep calm guys or when the feast is finally served, you'll be in the ICU with acute indigestion,  Tay.



Tayji, Thank you for the detailed post on this and we all appreciate and value you your contribution a lot. 

Having said that i say that me amd @Abingdonboy understand what you are so humbly trying to convey here. In fact we both agree with you.

The poin of contention however is different, especially btn me ans him.
According to his calculation, this 36 is a total waste and we must go for 200.

I say lets settle for less and wait to seeto which dirextion my mind allows to hold the umbrella when the wind starts blowing, when it blows.

You too seem to hold the same opinion as Abingdonboy but yout numbers are 114.

I would like to see some mathbhind it. 50% buying for 50% offset need to to be validatrd with data. And as far as my information goes French have gone on records to say that they will abide to 50% offset only for 36.

Regards,
Dash

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## Abingdonboy

Dash said:


> According to his calculation, this 36 is a total waste and we must go for 200.


To make it economically viable the numbers have to be 100+. To meet the IAF's requirements in the immediate to medium term their orginal 189 figure remains unfulfilled. Any thing less than 100 is a complete waste of time and the MoD/GoI would be foolish to pursue such a limited deal.

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## Dash

Abingdonboy said:


> To make it economically viable the numbers have to be 100+. To meet the IAF's requirements in the immediate to medium term their orginal 189 figure remains unfulfilled. Any thing less than 100 is a complete waste of time and the MoD/GoI would be foolish to pursue such a limited deal.



Show me your calculation in a precise way not only for me but for public consumption and I will agree until then its jingoistic and has nothing valuable to add.


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## Taygibay

Dash said:


> I say lets settle for less and wait to seeto which dirextion my mind allows to hold the umbrella when the wind starts blowing, when it blows.
> 
> You too seem to hold the same opinion as Abingdonboy but yout numbers are 114.
> 
> I would like to see some mathbhind it. 50% buying for 50% offset need to to be validatrd with data. And as far as my information goes French have gone on records to say that they will abide to 50% offset only for 36.



OK, got that! Your position makes excellent sense in general, cautious, wary even, no problemo!
The problem with small series being as you know that price goes up as numbers plummet!
I surmise this reasoning to be behind all those incredible cost claims by everyone and their sister. 

So 36 not 126, same offsets, no ToT save operational but guaranteed 90% fleet availability?
I'd venture a tad over 4 B€ for that. Add 50% offsets = 6B€.
and then, ... add weapons / foreign integrations / unobtainium fur dangling dice et al and you
get a vertical take-off to the sky to test if it really has no limits say a quintillion billion $* ...
( *dollar sign cuz that would be the F-35  ).​
But there is in this context you mentioned of past weights that still burden the beast, a lesson if
we remember the original full lot pricing. Time ( elapsed ) and change(s /as in new demands ) add to cost.
To correct this, the proper breakdown would imply a sliding rule pricing established ab initio.
In other words, you negotiate in the first deal the returns each additional tranche will get you.
36 = 30% offsets as is international norm / 36 more get you 38% over the 72 and two last increments
of 20 bring you 6% + 6% for a total of 50% offsets over 112 machines compared to the MMRCA's 108.

That way, your future investment is edged even if you don't use the prerogative and buy less?
You can assess each segment in light of returns of experience with goal reached if it goes well.

Reaching the half total production at large that I gave earlier makes that single client in a virtual
partnership relation with the maker. That's the level at which you can ask for the moon *and* for a rebate!

Good convo, later guys, Tay.

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## Bratva

Abingdonboy said:


> To make it economically viable the numbers have to be 100+. To meet the IAF's requirements in the immediate to medium term their orginal 189 figure remains unfulfilled. Any thing less than 100 is a complete waste of time and the MoD/GoI would be foolish to pursue such a limited deal.



It didnt make any sense to me. Previous deal of 126 aircraft was was speculated to be at 20-21 Billion dollar. In coming years after you purchase 36 aircraft, price of Rafael would go even more higher. So how it is economically feasible for you guys to Buy more rafael after 36 aircrafts at a more steep price which in end will turn out to be 25-30 Billion dollar ?


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## Taygibay

Dash said:


> Your being there statement didn't help the argument apart fromasking me to accept the whole post from face value.




_That was in fact not meant to help the argument as you shrewdly noticed but rather as a fair play
warning that if you disputed the linearity of the facts, I'd slap you with the glove of facts_quotes_and_citations
and proceed to win the laugh-in-your-face duel to which you'd have thus been called!
It is so comforting that your being a sane person exempt of trolling avoided us the indignity, thanks!_


Just for fun, if the only criterion was usefulness, how many Rafales would you get for the IAF?

5 squadrons? How many planes is that exactly? With attrition spares!

Maybe that number should be the basis for negos?

Cheers, Tay.

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## Ankit Kumar

Bratva said:


> It didnt make any sense to me. Previous deal of 126 aircraft was was speculated to be at 20-21 Billion dollar. In coming years after you purchase 36 aircraft, price of Rafael would go even more higher. So how it is economically feasible for you stat Buy more rafael after 36 aircrafts at a more steep price which in end will turn out to be 25-30 Billion dollar ?



Bhaijaan 2 things.
1. You see , we still have 5.4 Billion US dollars unused this financial year, and same has been the story for some two decades. So, money, whatever the media says.... if something is a necessity, we will get it. 

2. I am not claiming it. But you see that the French side has stated one thing quite a few times, I.e, " This( present deal) would lead to a bigger cooperation in India and France wherein Dassault and other companies involved will get to play a big role in " MII". " Now what it seems, at least to me, that we are trying to negotiate for not only these 36, but for a deal with French wherein they get a big pie of future (not so long term ) projects ( You see Boeing and SAAB have hinted that they are ready to assemble in India 200 aircrafts). In short, the present deal takes care, at least partly that if it goes through, more Rafales ( at least 3 More squadrons) will surely come and also put a cap at their price too.


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## ultron

Rafale is a medium sized plane like F-16. It's not a big plane like F-15, F-22, Su-35, PAK FA.


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## Ankit Kumar

The LRIP block of 2015 of F35s costed 5.37 Billion dollars for 55 aircrafts excluding engines. Can someone shed some light on the amount spent on operating the F35s and compare it to that of Rafales?

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## Taygibay

It's pretty hard to shed light on the F-35 because of delays compounding concurrency ...
which of course wasn't planned that way. The services did not expect slow development
nor did anyone envision sequestration and assorted dumb GOP behaviour that cut money.

That LRIP price is unnaturally burdened by these. At the same time, some parts of the
program are less advanced than either desired or planned for and their true cost as those
of a couple other necessary technological ... huh, let's call 'em fixes are yet unknown?
The same goes for the operating costs as a direct consequence.

There is a reason my poor Ankit why so few analysis on how the F-35 will fare in respect
to the existing fighters, good ones I mean, are to be found. Few bright folks conjecture
about prospective when faced with too many uncertainties.

For now, we can suppose equivalent servicing costs as maintenance process is similar on
both, I.E. in-use monitoring and fast sub-assemblies replacement. The difference should
come from added gizmos and mostly stealth which is darn costly to maintain in a combat
environment.
So somewhat higher operating cost for the JSF, max. on the B, with the value to be reported
over capacities for real advantage in usefulness in a couple years when both are active
over their full-spectrum.

Great day to you, Tay.

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## ralphleo

I fail to understand what IAF wants from Rafale when neither Rusdia nor China have any interest in this nonsense concept if medium category. Their Sukhois are enough to do everything.


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## doublemaster

cerberus said:


> What is Combat Payload LCA Its Light Weight Category Fighter with Combat Payload of 3700 KG.Still Not Suitable For Deep Strike Missions
> 
> Which Still in LALA Land DRDO Babus still Not Able to Deliver SP-2 Since Last year Come to Real World
> Dear
> 
> 
> Sir ji what is offset 50 % Actually Do you Know


So u pay double to get 50% offset?


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## cerberus

doublemaster said:


> So u pay double to get 50% offset?


Double 9 billion $ seems fair for 36 
With complete life cycle cost 

Eurofighter is even costlier


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## rockstarIN

ralphleo said:


> I fail to understand what IAF wants from Rafale when neither Rusdia nor China have any interest in this nonsense concept if medium category. Their Sukhois are enough to do everything.



Now they do not have light fighters either..! Their low tyre will be Mig-29 & J-10, which is medium.


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## PARIKRAMA

_Credit to original poster Loke _





http://rafalefan.e-monsite.com/medias/files/fiche-rafale-le-bourget-2011.jpg


@Taygibay @Vauban @Abingdonboy
From June 2011... Look at green underlined portions
emergency 11g's
canard reduced landing speed to 115 knots ~213 kmph
can operate from 1300 feet or 400m runway
Supercruise at 1.4Mach with 6 MICA - Rafale M
Supercruise at 1.4 M with 4 Mica and 1250L belly drop tank

All this when it had RBE2 PESA and M88-2 model implying older Rafale of 2011...

I am waiting eagerly to see next phase of data with say M88-4 of present models and perhaps the next engine variant based changes..

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## Taygibay

Yes, Parik my friend, I was aware of those metrics.
I'm glad that finally someone is interested in them!

All the best to you and yours, Tay.

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## doublemaster

cerberus said:


> Double 9 billion $ seems fair for 36
> With complete life cycle cost
> 
> Eurofighter is even costlier


Thats different story. But they did a propaganda that it was 4b$, and many bhakth kept arguing me that its way cheap. But now?


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## cerberus

doublemaster said:


> Thats different story. But they did a propaganda that it was 4b$, and many bhakth kept arguing me that its way cheap. But now?


First Learn to Comprehend Secondly If Don't Know Facts of the Deal Don't Quote Me Next time


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## Dash

Taygibay said:


> But there is in this context you mentioned of past weights that still burden the beast, a lesson if
> we remember the original full lot pricing. Time ( elapsed ) and change(s /as in new demands ) add to cost.
> To correct this, the proper breakdown would imply a sliding rule pricing established ab initio.
> In other words, you negotiate in the first deal the returns each additional tranche will get you.
> 36 = 30% offsets as is international norm / 36 more get you 38% over the 72 and two last increments
> of 20 bring you 6% + 6% for a total of 50% offsets over 112 machines compared to the MMRCA's 108.



I agree, however a sliding rule pricing ab initio is not quite accurate as you rightly mentioned while new parameters are getting added. However I see logic in your calculation and the logic in MOD's offer vis-aviz a straight forward 50% payment offer for a 50% offset. Perhaps while committing 50% value upfront, I see you are taking care of inflation and make it a lucrative rider for bypassing a larger order in order to achieve the goal. I see sense in it. Tell me what you feel.



Taygibay said:


> _That was in fact not meant to help the argument as you shrewdly noticed but rather as a fair play
> warning that if you disputed the linearity of the facts, I'd slap you with the glove of facts_quotes_and_citations
> and proceed to win the laugh-in-your-face duel to which you'd have thus been called!
> It is so comforting that your being a sane person exempt of trolling avoided us the indignity, thanks!_



Tayji, I say this, the indignity would have been equally mine, if it was ever intended to malign someone's true credentials. 



Taygibay said:


> Just for fun, if the only criterion was usefulness, how many Rafales would you get for the IAF?



Very tricky question. But I will stand by my earlier number for 4 squadrons. In terms of pure usefulness.



PARIKRAMA said:


> _Credit to original poster Loke _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://rafalefan.e-monsite.com/medias/files/fiche-rafale-le-bourget-2011.jpg
> 
> 
> @Taygibay @Vauban @Abingdonboy
> From June 2011... Look at green underlined portions
> emergency 11g's
> canard reduced landing speed to 115 knots ~213 kmph
> can operate from 1300 feet or 400m runway
> Supercruise at 1.4Mach with 6 MICA - Rafale M
> Supercruise at 1.4 M with 4 Mica and 1250L belly drop tank
> 
> All this when it had RBE2 PESA and M88-2 model implying older Rafale of 2011...
> 
> I am waiting eagerly to see next phase of data with say M88-4 of present models and perhaps the next engine variant based changes..



Are you a BRFite?

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## PARIKRAMA

Dash said:


> Are you a BRFite?



thats also there posted by austin.. original source is loke in keypubs
no i m not in brf.. browse at times to read views.. some folks like indranil posts good stuff.. with austin.. and some other old brfcrew ppl..

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## Dash

PARIKRAMA said:


> thats also there posted by austin.. original source is loke in keypubs
> no i m not in brf.. browse at times to read views.. some folks like indranil posts good stuff.. with austin.. and some other old brfcrew ppl..



That I know. But just guessed you could be one. There was something else that you wrote in Dassult sticky I believe got posted in BRF but didn't get much traction, but got posted indeed

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## Taygibay

So 4 squadrons would be 80+ including attritions?
That's close to what Abingdon, Parik and I gave
as the mid to long term goal for the buy / deals.

Think 36 + 18 options plus a second buy of 36 later.
54 + 36 equals ... you got it : 90! 108 if 5 full sqdns.

Not so far apart, huh? Tay.

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## Dash

Taygibay said:


> So 4 squadrons would be 80+ including attritions?
> That's close to what Abingdon, Parik and I gave
> as the mid to long term goal for the buy / deals.
> 
> Think 36 + 18 options plus a second buy of 36 later.
> 54 + 36 equals ... you got it : 90!
> 
> Not so far apart, huh? Tay.



That's what I would love to have but that'sjust us. I have never said that 36 is a desired number to be worth to IAF in terms of its uusefulness from a quantity pov. But it doesn't deprive of the quality either.

My effort there from has always been to find the calculation behind the numbers rather than proposing what's out of context and I believe, if we can find sense which we have almost but don't acknowledge due our personal reasons, then we can discuss about follow ons. 

But I guess our approach is to evaluate mrca as it's always been in absolute binary terms.

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## Taygibay

Dash said:


> But I guess our approach is to evaluate mrca as it's always been in absolute binary terms.



Ah matey, don't be harsh and shrug me off thus! 

My approach does take in M/MRCA ... because it was the initial requirement and more so because
the way it was garbled influences the present situation, that's all!

If we had a fixed procurement number for the Tejas, if we had a frozen timeframe for AMCA, if we
knew precisely what tactical book the IAF will draw for its Rafales, it would be almost too easy . . .
and certainly not generate as many internet/fora pages.

Working from context is all we can do. Dassault can produce any number you want but only once ...
it knows what that number is? Can't sign a fixed price for a variable number of units, can we?

That's why I wanted you to be specific. Draw a personal interpretation of things to come and I'll be
glad to debate from there?

Read you soon, Tay.


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## doublemaster

cerberus said:


> First Learn to Comprehend Secondly If Don't Know Facts of the Deal Don't Quote Me Next time


First go read again what i posted. I am criticizing government here for faking and getting credit with cheap publicity.
U goback and read all the news of April-2015 when modi visited france.


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## cerberus

doublemaster said:


> First go read again what i posted. I am criticizing government here for faking and getting credit with cheap publicity.
> U goback and read all the news of April-2015 when modi visited france.


Talk Me on Technical Points I Rather Stay Way From Political Terms .On Technical Terms This Deal is Better


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## PARIKRAMA

++++++++++++++
*Update... Source based..

Rafale deal is a big go....*

(Take with bags of salt  )


Base year negotiation 2015 fixed finally from earlier negotiated 2011
Price brought down to Euro 8Bn from initial Euro 11.5 Bn (with 2011 as base year)
Further negotiations to trim down price to Euro 7.2-7.3 Bn implying another 700-800 Mn Euros
The customizations may see some more cost trimming
The support package + infrastructure package getting re negotiated.
Jet+Weapons loaded is capped at Euro 100 Mn or Euro 3.6 Bn
Effectively another 3.6 Bn is for support +infra+ training+ TCO+ spares+customizations+others
Cost of infrastructure in terms of materials and manhours now being cited to reduce per base cost from earlier Euro 1.2 Bn per base
Delivery schedule from 36 months from 2019 (3 years) and will be completed 2022 (5.5 years)
MII part resolved. India has informed French Government MII needs to be done urgently owing to other competitive offers.. The surprise competitors are - Eurofighter (backed by Germany and UK) and F18s (USA/Boeing). Decision will be and implemented max to max by December 2016 for work to start immediately.. (any 1 of the 3 with first preference being Dassault)
10th point.. Shocker competition.... Angela Merkel on her last visit emphasized less on Submarines more on EF make in India.. Seems sweeter includes an AESA radar of NG for complete TOT + other considerable goodies with tech sharing for EJ 200 and EJ230 joint effort with TVC to power AMCA. 

It seems DM MP has personally informed Jean-Yves Le Drian about it when they met in New Delhi and said GOI wants a firm MII decision implemented by max Dec 2016 with start of work immediately. The EF offer in hush hush mode is the second trump card besides Russian FGFA program+ more MKI. DA seems to have fallen in line for threat of losing the lucrative 200+ jet market and that too to a European Rival...

So India's final cost working expected around Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3Bn or at Euro/INR 77 its Rs 55450 Crs - Rs 56210 Crs
++++++++++++++++++++++++


@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @Nilgiri @cerberus @anant_s
Shocker new things.. Seems EF MII is a big trump card which GOI/MOD held very close for ultimate act for Negotiations... But all this is more or less resolved..

Good to see MII part clarity for starting by Dec 2016.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here comes the
confirmation
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

nuclear capable Rafale , fitted with American AESA deal set to close at lower price of Rs 60,000cr

_India and France are expected to close the purchase of 36 Rafale multi-role fighters from Dassault Aviation with the signing of an inter-governmental agreement including the commercial contract between the two countries next month. The deal is expected to be clinched at about Rs 60,000 crore, less than what was offered by France to India during the previous UPA government with 2011 being the base price year.

Top government sources said after the initial price of 11.6 billion euros (Rs 85,000 crore) with 2015 as the base year, Dassault brought it down to 8 billion euros (Rs 65,000 crore) with 2011 being the base year for fixing the cost per fighter.

*the base years got reversed here 11.6 Bn as per 2011 and 8 Bn as per 2015*

This would have been the price of 36 fighters had India purchased planes at the cost quoted in the cancelled 126 multi-medium role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract in which Rafale had emerged as the lowest bidder in comparison with Eurofighter.

“During Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France in April 2015, it was bilaterally decided that the cost of each fighter would be 10-20% less than what was being offered in the MMRCA project; we expect the jet manufacturer to further reduce price and bring it down by another 700-800 million euros before the contract is signed,” a senior government official said.

*Thats in line with what i said so expected price is Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3 Bn*


However, the defence ministry under Manohar Parrikar is expected to further hammer down the cost by opting out of unnecessary or what are called “over-specified” add-ons in Rafale fighters as per the initial MMRCA contract.

“We expect the deal to close around Rs 60,000 crore with Rafale with first deliveries in 2019. The French company also has a separate option of manufacturing the fighter in the country under the Make in India rubric. For that Rafale will have to contest with Boeing F-18 and Eurofighter in case their respective governments allow them to manufacture these platforms in India,” a senior official said.

*Thats the 1 out of 3 i said*

The deal was scheduled to be concluded during French president Francois Hollande’s visit as the guest of honour at the Republic Day celebrations on January 26 but was delayed due to protracted negotiations between both sides.

The nuclear-capable Rafale will be fitted with *American AESA* (active electronically scanned phased array) radar, top-of-the-line beyond-visual-range missiles and defensive weapon systems._

_*American AESA -on Rafales *_





*@Taygibay @Vauban You will love hearing American Aesa on Rafale*

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## rockstarIN

PARIKRAMA said:


> The support package + infrastructure package getting re negotiated.
> 
> Jet+Weapons loaded is capped at Euro 100 Mn or Euro 3.6 Bn
> 
> Effectively another 3.6 Bn is for support +infra+ training+ TCO+ spares+customizations+others
> 
> Cost of infrastructure in terms of materials and manhours now being cited to reduce per base cost from earlier Euro 1.2 Bn per base



The spares for how many years? 20 years life span?

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## anant_s

PARIKRAMA said:


> ++++++++++++++
> *Update... Source based..
> 
> Rafale deal is a big go....*
> 
> (Take with bags of salt  )
> 
> 
> Base year negotiation 2015 fixed finally from earlier negotiated 2011
> Price brought down to Euro 8Bn from initial Euro 11.5 Bn (with 2011 as base year)
> Further negotiations to trim down price to Euro 7.2-7.3 Bn implying another 700-800 Mn Euros
> The customizations may see some more cost trimming
> The support package + infrastructure package getting re negotiated.
> Jet+Weapons loaded is capped at Euro 100 Mn or Euro 3.6 Bn
> Effectively another 3.6 Bn is for support +infra+ training+ TCO+ spares+customizations+others
> Cost of infrastructure in terms of materials and manhours now being cited to reduce per base cost from earlier Euro 1.2 Bn per base
> Delivery schedule from 36 months from 2019 (3 years) and will be completed 2022 (5.5 years)
> MII part resolved. India has informed French Government MII needs to be done urgently owing to other competitive offers.. The surprise competitors are - Eurofighter (backed by Germany and UK) and F18s (USA/Boeing). Decision will be and implemented max to max by December 2016 for work to start immediately.. (any 1 of the 3 with first preference being Dassault)
> 10th point.. Shocker competition.... Angela Merkel on her last visit emphasized less on Submarines more on EF make in India.. Seems sweeter includes an AESA radar of NG for complete TOT + other considerable goodies with tech sharing for EJ 200 and EJ230 joint effort with TVC to power AMCA.
> 
> It seems DM MP has personally informed Jean-Yves Le Drian about it when they met in New Delhi and said GOI wants a firm MII decision implemented by max Dec 2016 with start of work immediately. The EF offer in hush hush mode is the second trump card besides Russian FGFA program+ more MKI. DA seems to have fallen in line for threat of losing the lucrative 200+ jet market and that too to a European Rival...
> 
> So India's final cost working expected around Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3Bn or at Euro/INR 77 its Rs 55450 Crs - Rs 56210 Crs
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @Nilgiri @cerberus @anant_s
> Shocker new things.. Seems EF MII is a big trump card which GOI/MOD held very close for ultimate act for Negotiations... But all this is more or less resolved..
> 
> Good to see MII part clarity for starting by Dec 2016.
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Here comes the
> confirmation
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> nuclear capable Rafale , fitted with American AESA deal set to close at lower price of Rs 60,000cr
> 
> _India and France are expected to close the purchase of 36 Rafale multi-role fighters from Dassault Aviation with the signing of an inter-governmental agreement including the commercial contract between the two countries next month. The deal is expected to be clinched at about Rs 60,000 crore, less than what was offered by France to India during the previous UPA government with 2011 being the base price year.
> 
> Top government sources said after the initial price of 11.6 billion euros (Rs 85,000 crore) with 2015 as the base year, Dassault brought it down to 8 billion euros (Rs 65,000 crore) with 2011 being the base year for fixing the cost per fighter.
> 
> *the base years got reversed here 11.6 Bn as per 2011 and 8 Bn as per 2015*
> 
> This would have been the price of 36 fighters had India purchased planes at the cost quoted in the cancelled 126 multi-medium role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract in which Rafale had emerged as the lowest bidder in comparison with Eurofighter.
> 
> “During Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France in April 2015, it was bilaterally decided that the cost of each fighter would be 10-20% less than what was being offered in the MMRCA project; we expect the jet manufacturer to further reduce price and bring it down by another 700-800 million euros before the contract is signed,” a senior government official said.
> 
> *Thats in line with what i said so expected price is Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3 Bn*
> 
> 
> However, the defence ministry under Manohar Parrikar is expected to further hammer down the cost by opting out of unnecessary or what are called “over-specified” add-ons in Rafale fighters as per the initial MMRCA contract.
> 
> “We expect the deal to close around Rs 60,000 crore with Rafale with first deliveries in 2019. The French company also has a separate option of manufacturing the fighter in the country under the Make in India rubric. For that Rafale will have to contest with Boeing F-18 and Eurofighter in case their respective governments allow them to manufacture these platforms in India,” a senior official said.
> 
> *Thats the 1 out of 3 i said*
> 
> The deal was scheduled to be concluded during French president Francois Hollande’s visit as the guest of honour at the Republic Day celebrations on January 26 but was delayed due to protracted negotiations between both sides.
> 
> The nuclear-capable Rafale will be fitted with *American AESA* (active electronically scanned phased array) radar, top-of-the-line beyond-visual-range missiles and defensive weapon systems._
> 
> _*American AESA -on Rafales *_
> View attachment 292931
> 
> 
> *@Taygibay @Vauban You will love hearing American Aesa on Rafale*





if true (especially the EFT part), this could be the a news saucier than shenanigans of certain miss Leone.

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## PARIKRAMA

rockstarIN said:


> The spares for how many years? 20 years life span?


its quoted at an avg 5% consumption of flyaway cost per year.. Most probably for 7-10 years post which localisation will take care of that aspect or another 5 years will be added via a separate deal.. 

Originally it was for 10 years and we wanted 15 at the same price but then it was like almost Euro 28 Mn per jet or like Euro 1Bn+ for 36 jets for 10 years and then it came to Euro 500 Mn approx for 5 years...

We may finally agree for 7-10 years at the same price of Euro 500 Mn finally after negotiations (where now we want for 10 years same price of 500 Mn Euros...)

The point of contention being the initial years the new jet has less spare issues but it comes with more wear and tear over multiple years of usage. So 5% avg cannot be used for first 5 years and we are targeting 10 years at the same cost.

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## GURU DUTT

anant_s said:


> if true (especially the EFT part), this could be the a news saucier than *shenanigans of certain miss Leone*.


Baki every think is fine but what does that means ?

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## anant_s

GURU DUTT said:


> Baki every think is fine but what does that means ?


 

PS  back

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## Blue Marlin

so when can india conclude the deal then. i have lost track of it's negotiations.


PARIKRAMA said:


> ++++++++++++++
> *Update... Source based..
> 
> Rafale deal is a big go....*
> 
> (Take with bags of salt  )
> 
> 
> Base year negotiation 2015 fixed finally from earlier negotiated 2011
> Price brought down to Euro 8Bn from initial Euro 11.5 Bn (with 2011 as base year)
> Further negotiations to trim down price to Euro 7.2-7.3 Bn implying another 700-800 Mn Euros
> The customizations may see some more cost trimming
> The support package + infrastructure package getting re negotiated.
> Jet+Weapons loaded is capped at Euro 100 Mn or Euro 3.6 Bn
> Effectively another 3.6 Bn is for support +infra+ training+ TCO+ spares+customizations+others
> Cost of infrastructure in terms of materials and manhours now being cited to reduce per base cost from earlier Euro 1.2 Bn per base
> Delivery schedule from 36 months from 2019 (3 years) and will be completed 2022 (5.5 years)
> MII part resolved. India has informed French Government MII needs to be done urgently owing to other competitive offers.. The surprise competitors are - Eurofighter (backed by Germany and UK) and F18s (USA/Boeing). Decision will be and implemented max to max by December 2016 for work to start immediately.. (any 1 of the 3 with first preference being Dassault)
> 10th point.. Shocker competition.... Angela Merkel on her last visit emphasized less on Submarines more on EF make in India.. Seems sweeter includes an AESA radar of NG for complete TOT + other considerable goodies with tech sharing for EJ 200 and EJ230 joint effort with TVC to power AMCA.
> 
> It seems DM MP has personally informed Jean-Yves Le Drian about it when they met in New Delhi and said GOI wants a firm MII decision implemented by max Dec 2016 with start of work immediately. The EF offer in hush hush mode is the second trump card besides Russian FGFA program+ more MKI. DA seems to have fallen in line for threat of losing the lucrative 200+ jet market and that too to a European Rival...
> 
> So India's final cost working expected around Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3Bn or at Euro/INR 77 its Rs 55450 Crs - Rs 56210 Crs
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @Nilgiri @cerberus @anant_s
> Shocker new things.. Seems EF MII is a big trump card which GOI/MOD held very close for ultimate act for Negotiations... But all this is more or less resolved..
> 
> Good to see MII part clarity for starting by Dec 2016.
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Here comes the
> confirmation
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> nuclear capable Rafale , fitted with American AESA deal set to close at lower price of Rs 60,000cr
> 
> _India and France are expected to close the purchase of 36 Rafale multi-role fighters from Dassault Aviation with the signing of an inter-governmental agreement including the commercial contract between the two countries next month. The deal is expected to be clinched at about Rs 60,000 crore, less than what was offered by France to India during the previous UPA government with 2011 being the base price year.
> 
> Top government sources said after the initial price of 11.6 billion euros (Rs 85,000 crore) with 2015 as the base year, Dassault brought it down to 8 billion euros (Rs 65,000 crore) with 2011 being the base year for fixing the cost per fighter.
> 
> *the base years got reversed here 11.6 Bn as per 2011 and 8 Bn as per 2015*
> 
> This would have been the price of 36 fighters had India purchased planes at the cost quoted in the cancelled 126 multi-medium role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract in which Rafale had emerged as the lowest bidder in comparison with Eurofighter.
> 
> “During Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France in April 2015, it was bilaterally decided that the cost of each fighter would be 10-20% less than what was being offered in the MMRCA project; we expect the jet manufacturer to further reduce price and bring it down by another 700-800 million euros before the contract is signed,” a senior government official said.
> 
> *Thats in line with what i said so expected price is Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3 Bn*
> 
> 
> However, the defence ministry under Manohar Parrikar is expected to further hammer down the cost by opting out of unnecessary or what are called “over-specified” add-ons in Rafale fighters as per the initial MMRCA contract.
> 
> “We expect the deal to close around Rs 60,000 crore with Rafale with first deliveries in 2019. The French company also has a separate option of manufacturing the fighter in the country under the Make in India rubric. For that Rafale will have to contest with Boeing F-18 and Eurofighter in case their respective governments allow them to manufacture these platforms in India,” a senior official said.
> 
> *Thats the 1 out of 3 i said*
> 
> The deal was scheduled to be concluded during French president Francois Hollande’s visit as the guest of honour at the Republic Day celebrations on January 26 but was delayed due to protracted negotiations between both sides.
> 
> The nuclear-capable Rafale will be fitted with *American AESA* (active electronically scanned phased array) radar, top-of-the-line beyond-visual-range missiles and defensive weapon systems._
> 
> _*American AESA -on Rafales *_
> View attachment 292931
> 
> 
> *@Taygibay @Vauban You will love hearing American Aesa on Rafale*

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## PARIKRAMA

Blue Marlin said:


> so when can india conclude the deal then. i have lost track of it's negotiations.



It should get concluded in next 2-3 weeks. Payment provision made for either end of March or April. March will imply within FY16 but fiscal prudence is now needed as RBI governor wants to see the fiscal management of GOI before further rate cuts needed for growth trigger. So the other date is April 2016 for payment based on FY17 or change in financial year..

Beyond that would need either more deal completion complications or serious financial strains which will effect all modernization..


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## Taygibay

A source citing an American AESA on the Raffy is worth between nothing and slightly less than that!
Enough said!

Tay.

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## Blue Marlin

PARIKRAMA said:


> It should get concluded in next 2-3 weeks. Payment provision made for either end of March or April. March will imply within FY16 but fiscal prudence is now needed as RBI governor wants to see the fiscal management of GOI before further rate cuts needed for growth trigger. So the other date is April 2016 for payment based on FY17 or change in financial year..
> 
> Beyond that would need either more deal completion complications or serious financial strains which will effect all modernization..


my guy told me late feb early march-3-4 weeks from 25th jan.
why are you uys going for an americain aesa for? and which radar are you going for?



Taygibay said:


> A source citing an American AESA on the Raffy is worth between nothing and slightly less than that!
> Enough said!
> 
> Tay.


why will it be worthless

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## sathya

There is no point in going for American AESA .. Probably Typo..

GaN AESA of Israeli make makes more sense than this..,

why would India go for it ? When France already offering GaN AESA ..

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## Taygibay

Would you lose a second on a news piece saying the Typhie is getting an American AESA?
When we know where the Captor CAESAR is coming from ... in Europe?

At some point, one has to stick to informations by qualified people, it cuts the BS!
I don't get my health news from the National Enquirer nor Alex Jones but medical professional journals.
Something similar is at play in my attitude here ... 

Good day mate, Tay.

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## PARIKRAMA

Blue Marlin said:


> my guy told me late feb early march-3-4 weeks from 25th jan.
> why are you uys going for an americain aesa for? and which radar are you going for?



I think its a wrong reporting...

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> ++++++++++++++
> *Update... Source based..
> 
> Rafale deal is a big go....*
> 
> (Take with bags of salt  )
> 
> 
> Base year negotiation 2015 fixed finally from earlier negotiated 2011
> Price brought down to Euro 8Bn from initial Euro 11.5 Bn (with 2011 as base year)
> Further negotiations to trim down price to Euro 7.2-7.3 Bn implying another 700-800 Mn Euros
> The customizations may see some more cost trimming
> The support package + infrastructure package getting re negotiated.
> Jet+Weapons loaded is capped at Euro 100 Mn or Euro 3.6 Bn
> Effectively another 3.6 Bn is for support +infra+ training+ TCO+ spares+customizations+others
> Cost of infrastructure in terms of materials and manhours now being cited to reduce per base cost from earlier Euro 1.2 Bn per base
> Delivery schedule from 36 months from 2019 (3 years) and will be completed 2022 (5.5 years)
> MII part resolved. India has informed French Government MII needs to be done urgently owing to other competitive offers.. The surprise competitors are - Eurofighter (backed by Germany and UK) and F18s (USA/Boeing). Decision will be and implemented max to max by December 2016 for work to start immediately.. (any 1 of the 3 with first preference being Dassault)
> 10th point.. Shocker competition.... Angela Merkel on her last visit emphasized less on Submarines more on EF make in India.. Seems sweeter includes an AESA radar of NG for complete TOT + other considerable goodies with tech sharing for EJ 200 and EJ230 joint effort with TVC to power AMCA.
> 
> It seems DM MP has personally informed Jean-Yves Le Drian about it when they met in New Delhi and said GOI wants a firm MII decision implemented by max Dec 2016 with start of work immediately. The EF offer in hush hush mode is the second trump card besides Russian FGFA program+ more MKI. DA seems to have fallen in line for threat of losing the lucrative 200+ jet market and that too to a European Rival...
> 
> So India's final cost working expected around Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3Bn or at Euro/INR 77 its Rs 55450 Crs - Rs 56210 Crs
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @Nilgiri @cerberus @anant_s
> Shocker new things.. Seems EF MII is a big trump card which GOI/MOD held very close for ultimate act for Negotiations... But all this is more or less resolved..
> 
> Good to see MII part clarity for starting by Dec 2016.
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Here comes the
> confirmation
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++


@PARIKRAMA clearly the MII component with 100+ jets to be made in India is critical- without it the off the shelf purchase of 36+18 jets is worse than meaningless- it is actually self-harming and counter intuative.But now I am just looking for some tangible headway somewhere- get this govt-govt off the shelf deal concluded and then move onto the MII part, at least with that out of the way you will get some serious momentum going and there really is no way back. Once the door is open, with the way the Indian military works, there is no going back.


That said, 2019 as the timeline for the first Rafale deliveries is highly disappointing, I thought Dassualt were ramping up production and were commited to delivering the first Rafale to India within 2 years? The PM stated that the off the shelf procurements were to meet the immediate needs of the IAF- 2019 is still painfully far away.


And with that in mind, if we are to see the MII part completed by December 2016 (which itself is far too long away for these idiots in the media to keep their mouths shut) then when will the MII facilties be set up? When will the first Rafale made in India roll off the prodction line, even my most optimistic projections say it will only be 2021- at the earliest, which again is very far away. It is for this reason I had hoped Dassualt would accomadate the IAF's urgent requirements and churn out those 36-54 as fast as possible to offset the gruelling and time consuming process that is going to be setting up a brand new production line in India, that to me seemed like the entire point of expanding the off the shelf provision from 18 to 54. 


++ Any clarity on which Indian partner Dassualt is going to tie up with to set up shop in India?

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> That said, 2019 as the timeline for the first Rafale deliveries is highly disappointing, I thought Dassualt were ramping up production and were commited to delivering the first Rafale to India within 2 years? The PM stated that the off the shelf procurements were to meet the immediate needs of the IAF- 2019 is still painfully far away.


Practical issue as Safran needs time.. Engine up-gradation or the more correct work customization needs around 24-30 Months.. It seems prelim work has started in late 2015 so optimistically another 24 months or by 2018 end.. the work started as they are the building blocks for original Safran upgrades anyways planned for F4 or now called F3R2. Thus its practically not possible for Indian customized edition for 2017 delivery. The new delivery should start around 2019..

If India opts not for customization then i do see an opportunity for 2 jets in 2017 and then so on with 2018,19,20 for full delivery.



Abingdonboy said:


> And with that in mind, if we are to see the MII part completed by December 2016 (which itself is far too long away for these idiots in the media to keep their mouths shut) then when will the MII facilties be set up? When will the first Rafale made in India roll off the prodction line, even my most optimistic projections say it will only be 2021- at the earliest, which again is very far away. It is for this reason I had hoped Dassualt would accomadate the IAF's urgent requirements and churn out those 36-54 as fast as possible to offset the gruelling and time consuming process that is going to be setting up a brand new production line in India, that to me seemed like the entire point of expanding the off the shelf provision from 18 to 54.



Production line will take 30-36 months so counting from say December 2016 its expected to be finished by Dec 2019 with production start from Jan 2020. If they finish it quicker then perhaps earlier..

I think there is a plan for a squadron lease or half squadron lease from FrAF for operationally starting the Indian squadron. Not sure if its agreed or not as FrAF jets are atm busy with campaigns..

You are going to see heavy paid media war of words soon... Its going to paint town red and against Dassault...



Abingdonboy said:


> Any clarity on which Indian partner Dassualt is going to tie up with to set up shop in India?



Mukesh Ambani is favorite among financial circles for having a deep understanding with Dassault.

Seems Fixed wings jets will be handled by Mukesh Ambani group
Rotary Wings, Ships, Submarines, missiles will be handled by Anil Ambani group..

The joke doing rounds is INS Vishal may be built by Anil Ambani Defense company, may have Mukesh Ambani Jets....
Thats how the brothers going to dominate and expand into Defense manufacturing...

TBH some senior ppl in industry say, Mukesh Ambani wants a stake in Marcel Dassault group. He wishes to be a big player in aircraft business particularly with Rafale and Falcon jets.. I think whatever Dassault quotes, Mukesh Ambani will negotiate but surely buy.....

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## Taygibay

I was going to intervene on this 


Abingdonboy said:


> I thought Dassualt were ramping up production and were commited to delivering the first Rafale to India within 2 years?


but PariK beat me to it.

First one has to remember that the Rafale production line was built initially for 33 planes per year.
The 11 minimum aircrafts per annum was the warrantee of buys by the French govt. Below that,
each plane costs more to build and Dassault would see it as a part time job if you will. Exports were
to be the adjustment variable allowing the French government to buy less. 6 sold abroad equals 6 
deliveries delayed and money for them along with it. There were still 26 Rafales to be received in the
present programmation law running till 2019. 11 came last year and 4 will have come this year not
including the F1 refits on their own ttimeline. None are coming for 3 years except those borrowed by
Egypt that will trickle in at some point in there. 2020 is when the last tranche planned so far starts.

When Trappier announced the ramping up, he said it would take up to 3 years to reach full speed.
The reason for this is that from the first hole drilled on the first component to the roll-off takes 3 years.
Thus, ramping up means that those at the beginning of the chain have begun producing more already
but the full speed will show in number of aircrafts delivered in 32/33 months : 3 per month. Because of
that delay, Dassault had to hike production prior to signing. It is good for Indians that want this fighter
to understand that Egypt and Qatar having already signed orders above what the line could deliver :
24 + 24 = 48 over 3 years that equal 33 at 11 per year means 15 left or 18 months of production, the
ramping up had to come from another order. And there are 2 prospects : UAE & you Bharatis! 

See what I mean? That means that whomever signs first may get normal delivery ( speedy ones are taken, first come ... )
and the other will get a 36 months wait! Which spot do you want?
Of course, if either deal fails, the other will still get its first birds in 2019 but with deliveries of up to ...
20+ per year in 2020 and beyond as a full production of 33, with previous deals served, allows on top
of the 11 that the French Forces should again receive.

For a 36 planes deal in that context, total delivery will take a mere 20 months! 

Interesting tale of the tape, wouldn't you say? Tay.

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## surya kiran

Taygibay said:


> A source citing an American AESA on the Raffy is worth between nothing and slightly less than that!
> Enough said!



Wait till they say, India has asked for Russian PakFa engine in the Rafale.

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## Taygibay

^^^

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> ++++++++++++++
> *Update... Source based..
> 
> Rafale deal is a big go....*
> 
> (Take with bags of salt  )
> 
> 
> Base year negotiation 2015 fixed finally from earlier negotiated 2011
> Price brought down to Euro 8Bn from initial Euro 11.5 Bn (with 2011 as base year)
> Further negotiations to trim down price to Euro 7.2-7.3 Bn implying another 700-800 Mn Euros
> The customizations may see some more cost trimming
> The support package + infrastructure package getting re negotiated.
> Jet+Weapons loaded is capped at Euro 100 Mn or Euro 3.6 Bn
> Effectively another 3.6 Bn is for support +infra+ training+ TCO+ spares+customizations+others
> Cost of infrastructure in terms of materials and manhours now being cited to reduce per base cost from earlier Euro 1.2 Bn per base
> Delivery schedule from 36 months from 2019 (3 years) and will be completed 2022 (5.5 years)
> MII part resolved. India has informed French Government MII needs to be done urgently owing to other competitive offers.. The surprise competitors are - Eurofighter (backed by Germany and UK) and F18s (USA/Boeing). Decision will be and implemented max to max by December 2016 for work to start immediately.. (any 1 of the 3 with first preference being Dassault)
> 10th point.. Shocker competition.... Angela Merkel on her last visit emphasized less on Submarines more on EF make in India.. Seems sweeter includes an AESA radar of NG for complete TOT + other considerable goodies with tech sharing for EJ 200 and EJ230 joint effort with TVC to power AMCA.
> 
> It seems DM MP has personally informed Jean-Yves Le Drian about it when they met in New Delhi and said GOI wants a firm MII decision implemented by max Dec 2016 with start of work immediately. The EF offer in hush hush mode is the second trump card besides Russian FGFA program+ more MKI. DA seems to have fallen in line for threat of losing the lucrative 200+ jet market and that too to a European Rival...
> 
> So India's final cost working expected around Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3Bn or at Euro/INR 77 its Rs 55450 Crs - Rs 56210 Crs
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @Nilgiri @cerberus @anant_s
> Shocker new things.. Seems EF MII is a big trump card which GOI/MOD held very close for ultimate act for Negotiations... But all this is more or less resolved..
> 
> Good to see MII part clarity for starting by Dec 2016.
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Here comes the
> confirmation
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> nuclear capable Rafale , fitted with American AESA deal set to close at lower price of Rs 60,000cr
> 
> _India and France are expected to close the purchase of 36 Rafale multi-role fighters from Dassault Aviation with the signing of an inter-governmental agreement including the commercial contract between the two countries next month. The deal is expected to be clinched at about Rs 60,000 crore, less than what was offered by France to India during the previous UPA government with 2011 being the base price year.
> 
> Top government sources said after the initial price of 11.6 billion euros (Rs 85,000 crore) with 2015 as the base year, Dassault brought it down to 8 billion euros (Rs 65,000 crore) with 2011 being the base year for fixing the cost per fighter.
> 
> *the base years got reversed here 11.6 Bn as per 2011 and 8 Bn as per 2015*
> 
> This would have been the price of 36 fighters had India purchased planes at the cost quoted in the cancelled 126 multi-medium role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract in which Rafale had emerged as the lowest bidder in comparison with Eurofighter.
> 
> “During Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France in April 2015, it was bilaterally decided that the cost of each fighter would be 10-20% less than what was being offered in the MMRCA project; we expect the jet manufacturer to further reduce price and bring it down by another 700-800 million euros before the contract is signed,” a senior government official said.
> 
> *Thats in line with what i said so expected price is Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3 Bn*
> 
> 
> However, the defence ministry under Manohar Parrikar is expected to further hammer down the cost by opting out of unnecessary or what are called “over-specified” add-ons in Rafale fighters as per the initial MMRCA contract.
> 
> “We expect the deal to close around Rs 60,000 crore with Rafale with first deliveries in 2019. The French company also has a separate option of manufacturing the fighter in the country under the Make in India rubric. For that Rafale will have to contest with Boeing F-18 and Eurofighter in case their respective governments allow them to manufacture these platforms in India,” a senior official said.
> 
> *Thats the 1 out of 3 i said*
> 
> The deal was scheduled to be concluded during French president Francois Hollande’s visit as the guest of honour at the Republic Day celebrations on January 26 but was delayed due to protracted negotiations between both sides.
> 
> The nuclear-capable Rafale will be fitted with *American AESA* (active electronically scanned phased array) radar, top-of-the-line beyond-visual-range missiles and defensive weapon systems._
> 
> _*American AESA -on Rafales *_
> View attachment 292931
> 
> 
> *@Taygibay @Vauban You will love hearing American Aesa on Rafale*



You are gonna give someone a seizure at the end there lol.

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## Ankit Kumar

@PARIKRAMA
How good is an upgraded Jaguar in its intended role in today's senario ?

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## #hydra#

IAF hunt for new jet has started soon after kargil war,15 years has passed since & we are yet to sign even the contract. The latest amount is 9billionUSD,we could have allocate a fraction of this 9billion for R&D for new twin engine fighter. 15 years is enough to devolop a decent fighter.

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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> How good is an upgraded Jaguar in its intended role in today's senario ?



Darin 3 upgrade is good enough for the role its envisioned.. I am saying this based on points below


Jags has already completed two MLU, and is now heading for their third MLU. 
Darin (Display Attack Ranging Inertial Navigation) is one of the new feature added to the existing avionics package
Jag currently lacks a reliable Radar system instead uses the IRST & OLS(Optical Locator Systems). 
India is currently equipped with three different variants, the maritime version charged with the surveillance of the coast and the Deep Penetration bomber currently in use with the Air force and the one under Strategic Forces Command for tactical nuclear strikes. 
The air force version is equipped with ground attack munitions, Martel ARM along with R 550 Magic Air to Air Missiles and two on board cannons. 
Primarily used for deep penetration, SEAD DEAD and CAS
In lo lo lo profile mission with two Martel ARM missiles it can strike targets beyond 1000 km.
The Darin III allows the jags new weapons like AGM 88 HARM missiles for SEAD role, more powerful LGB/PGM's with CBU-105 (Censor Fuzed Weapon). 
The Jaguar comes with RLG inertial navigation and a digital terrain mapping system which is a very good alternative to terrain hugging and avoidance Radar systems.
The Jaguar also comes with Israeli Litening pods for better recon and pin point ground attack missions with using of LGB/PGM. The DARIN III comes with IADS suites which allow the Jaguar escape from any kind of Airborne and Ground threats.
The Maritime version comes with Radar named Agave which can fire Sea Eagle Anti Ship missile, a primary maritime strike aircraft for IAF. 
This can be upgraded into DARIN III Standard with newer Israeli ELTA Radar, which is capable to fire the new Generation Harpoon Anti Shipping Missiles from Jaguar IM Aircraft. 
The SFC Jaguars comes with nuclear strike Missions. More than 20+ Aircraft's are under SFC control and are capable of carrying out nuclear Gravity bombs.







Source
SEPECAT Jaguar is India's only tactical nuclear carrying and Ground Attack Aircraft — Defence Update | Defence Update
Life of Soldiers: Jaguar DARIN III

Of course if you compare say a principal DPSA with similar features and similar mission profiles, the list of choices are very limiting.. In all practical sense, a Mini Awacs like MKI acting as director and escorting Jags is more than enough for their role. I am very happy if Jags role can be taken over by Rafales.. Practically it frees my escortee role and allows me a much wider usage of assets..

But then for the cost Jags provide a great value for money.... Those 2 guns are good enough when they fire to rip many things to shred...


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## Ankit Kumar

PARIKRAMA said:


> Darin 3 upgrade is good enough for the role its envisioned.. I am saying this based on points below
> 
> 
> Jags has already completed two MLU, and is now heading for their third MLU.
> Darin (Display Attack Ranging Inertial Navigation) is one of the new feature added to the existing avionics package
> Jag currently lacks a reliable Radar system instead uses the IRST & OLS(Optical Locator Systems).
> India is currently equipped with three different variants, the maritime version charged with the surveillance of the coast and the Deep Penetration bomber currently in use with the Air force and the one under Strategic Forces Command for tactical nuclear strikes.
> The air force version is equipped with ground attack munitions, Martel ARM along with R 550 Magic Air to Air Missiles and two on board cannons.
> Primarily used for deep penetration, SEAD DEAD and CAS
> In lo lo lo profile mission with two Martel ARM missiles it can strike targets beyond 1000 km.
> The Darin III allows the jags new weapons like AGM 88 HARM missiles for SEAD role, more powerful LGB/PGM's with CBU-105 (Censor Fuzed Weapon).
> The Jaguar comes with RLG inertial navigation and a digital terrain mapping system which is a very good alternative to terrain hugging and avoidance Radar systems.
> The Jaguar also comes with Israeli Litening pods for better recon and pin point ground attack missions with using of LGB/PGM. The DARIN III comes with IADS suites which allow the Jaguar escape from any kind of Airborne and Ground threats.
> The Maritime version comes with Radar named Agave which can fire Sea Eagle Anti Ship missile, a primary maritime strike aircraft for IAF.
> This can be upgraded into DARIN III Standard with newer Israeli ELTA Radar, which is capable to fire the new Generation Harpoon Anti Shipping Missiles from Jaguar IM Aircraft.
> The SFC Jaguars comes with nuclear strike Missions. More than 20+ Aircraft's are under SFC control and are capable of carrying out nuclear Gravity bombs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source
> SEPECAT Jaguar is India's only tactical nuclear carrying and Ground Attack Aircraft — Defence Update | Defence Update
> Life of Soldiers: Jaguar DARIN III
> 
> Of course if you compare say a principal DPSA with similar features and similar mission profiles, the list of choices are very limiting.. In all practical sense, a Mini Awacs like MKI acting as director and escorting Jags is more than enough for their role. I am very happy if Jags role can be taken over by Rafales.. Practically it frees my escortee role and allows me a much wider usage of assets..
> 
> But then for the cost Jags provide a great value for money.... Those 2 guns are good enough when they fire to rip many things to shred...



Yes. 
Now if India wants, can we restart the production of Jaguars?

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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar said:


> Yes.
> Now if India wants, can we restart the production of Jaguars?



This is the original production breakdown





Jaguar production breakdown
Orange = Breguet, yellow = BAC, red = Rolls-Royce

What India did is
_India is now the final user of the type, after an uncertain start. It took BAC more than 10 years to get the Indian Air Force to make their initial order, which was finally signed in late 1978. This was a large order for 130 aircraft, 35 to be built in the UK and the remainder to be licence built in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). Initial training was also carried out in the UK with the RAF Jaguar OCU. 14 Squadron were the first to form in July 1979, becoming fully operational in September 1980, followed by 5, 16, 6 and 27 Squadrons. The early Indian Jaguar Internationals (or 'Shamsher' as they are named in Indian service) were equipped as per RAF Jaguars, but the unreliable NAVWASS was soon upgraded to the DARIN inertial navigation system. Several aircraft were also upgraded with a French-built Agave radar in the nose and Sea Eagle air-to-surface missile capability for maritime strike purposes. Since then the type has followed a similar upgrade path to the RAF Jaguars, with DARIN II including further improved navigation kit, HUD and MFDs, HOTAS and improved RWR. The radar-equipped Jaguar IMs have had Israeli-built Elta 2032 radars installed also_

Source Thunder & Lightnings - SEPECAT Jaguar - History

_Aircraft were initially manufactured at HAL from knocked-down kits and then with most components being manufactured in-house._
Quarter Century of the Jaguar in India - Bharat Rakshak:Indian Air Force

_The airframes were manufactured by SEPECAT (Société Européenne de Production de l'avion Ecole de Combat et d'Appui Tactique), a joint venture between Breguet and the British Aircraft Corporation, one of the first major joint-Anglo-French military aircraft programs. 
Darin 3 Engines are new Honeywell F125INengines _
SEPECAT Jaguar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Interestingly Breguet later merged to form Dassault-Breguet, subsequently Dassault Aviation

So now you know if we want to restart the production whom we got to approach.. Yes it BAC and Dassault.. And Dassault would suggest Rafale line first then buy out Mirage line and then may be Jaguar line if anything is left of last mentioned too..

Its going to be cost intensive and with time and availability of better technology, the advancement can be seen with choice of Rafales now..

Perhaps our fascination for Dassault is not from now but historically with Jaguars which most says is British but actually British/French and Mirages French and Dassault name association has always made us comfortable with French fighters,,,

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## Ankit Kumar

PARIKRAMA said:


> This is the original production breakdown
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaguar production breakdown
> Orange = Breguet, yellow = BAC, red = Rolls-Royce
> 
> What India did is
> _India is now the final user of the type, after an uncertain start. It took BAC more than 10 years to get the Indian Air Force to make their initial order, which was finally signed in late 1978. This was a large order for 130 aircraft, 35 to be built in the UK and the remainder to be licence built in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). Initial training was also carried out in the UK with the RAF Jaguar OCU. 14 Squadron were the first to form in July 1979, becoming fully operational in September 1980, followed by 5, 16, 6 and 27 Squadrons. The early Indian Jaguar Internationals (or 'Shamsher' as they are named in Indian service) were equipped as per RAF Jaguars, but the unreliable NAVWASS was soon upgraded to the DARIN inertial navigation system. Several aircraft were also upgraded with a French-built Agave radar in the nose and Sea Eagle air-to-surface missile capability for maritime strike purposes. Since then the type has followed a similar upgrade path to the RAF Jaguars, with DARIN II including further improved navigation kit, HUD and MFDs, HOTAS and improved RWR. The radar-equipped Jaguar IMs have had Israeli-built Elta 2032 radars installed also_
> 
> Source Thunder & Lightnings - SEPECAT Jaguar - History
> 
> _Aircraft were initially manufactured at HAL from knocked-down kits and then with most components being manufactured in-house._
> Quarter Century of the Jaguar in India - Bharat Rakshak:Indian Air Force
> 
> _The airframes were manufactured by SEPECAT (Société Européenne de Production de l'avion Ecole de Combat et d'Appui Tactique), a joint venture between Breguet and the British Aircraft Corporation, one of the first major joint-Anglo-French military aircraft programs.
> Darin 3 Engines are new Honeywell F125INengines _
> SEPECAT Jaguar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Interestingly Breguet later merged to form Dassault-Breguet, subsequently Dassault Aviation
> 
> So now you know if we want to restart the production whom we got to approach.. Yes it BAC and Dassault.. And Dassault would suggest Rafale line first then buy out Mirage line and then may be Jaguar line if anything is left of last mentioned too..
> 
> Its going to be cost intensive and with time and availability of better technology, the advancement can be seen with choice of Rafales now..
> 
> Perhaps our fascination for Dassault is not from now but historically with Jaguars which most says is British but actually British/French and Mirages French and Dassault name association has always made us comfortable with French fighters,,,



Can we do it without Dassault? 
I don't mean that don't take foreign help , as engines, some weapons, radars etc .... 
But can we do it without Dassault. 

Someone yesterday was talking with me about the way China took up its aerospace industry and the way we are doing. There are some pros and cons every where. 

The person suddenly came upon this idea. 

First , the Jaguars are a very very capable machines who serve India . In one word full Paisa Wasool. 

And then there were talks ( which now are No where to be found ) about an aircraft with primary Air to Ground role, and secondary air to air role ( very basic ones, means just able to defend itself ). 

He told that 
» Can we restart the production of Jaguars? / YES
» Can we do it in a reasonable price? / YES
» Will it be effective ? / More than just effective 
» Why not refine the design? Why not add a decent radar, more air to ground options, a new WVRAAM, and new decent avionics? / An opportunity for Private sector.

And build these new airframe? 

I mean , if we look we need some 200 such aircrafts . Of course not at the cost of Rafale, but as a complement to it? 

The low flying capabilities are second to only a very few aircrafts in the world. 
Coupled with a good EW system, it will prove a shot in arm for India.

And an immense opportunity for private sector , who can be Proactive , rather than a reactive HAL. 

BUT ALAS....

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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar said:


> Can we do it without Dassault?
> I don't mean that don't take foreign help , as engines, some weapons, radars etc ....
> But can we do it without Dassault.
> 
> Someone yesterday was talking with me about the way China took up its aerospace industry and the way we are doing. There are some pros and cons every where.
> 
> The person suddenly came upon this idea.
> 
> First , the Jaguars are a very very capable machines who serve India . In one word full Paisa Wasool.
> 
> And then there were talks ( which now are No where to be found ) about an aircraft with primary Air to Ground role, and secondary air to air role ( very basic ones, means just able to defend itself ).
> 
> He told that
> » Can we restart the production of Jaguars? / YES
> » Can we do it in a reasonable price? / YES
> » Will it be effective ? / More than just effective
> » Why not refine the design? Why not add a decent radar, more air to ground options, a new WVRAAM, and new decent avionics? / An opportunity for Private sector.
> 
> And build these new airframe?
> 
> I mean , if we look we need some 200 such aircrafts . Of course not at the cost of Rafale, but as a complement to it?
> 
> The low flying capabilities are second to only a very few aircrafts in the world.
> Coupled with a good EW system, it will prove a shot in arm for India.
> 
> And an immense opportunity for private sector , who can be Proactive , rather than a reactive HAL.
> 
> BUT ALAS....


A very good thought process and i agree with points you made..

BUT

Orange part Breguet now Dassault is the front of the jags..
Yellow part BAC fate has also changed
_On 29 April 1977, BAC, the Hawker Siddeley Group and Scottish Aviation were nationalised and merged under the provisions of Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Act 1977. This new group was established as a statutory corporation, British Aerospace (BAe).
British Aircraft Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
_
How will we make those 2 portions? If we make it without licencing it wont we infringe into IPR and patented stuff? If we do it without seeking permissions and involving the original holder of that part IPR + tech, wont we amount to stealing tech.. If suppose we are reverse engineering it and using it to produce a clone of jags, agaiin dont you think India's long position in global market of respecting IPR will be tarnished at one go....

Jags are a very capable platform.. But in Today''s time its almost in sunset timeline like 5 pm time for 645 pm sunset.. In era to come at least next 50 years, the platform like Jags either has to evolve to be on par with capable platforms like EF, Rafales,Su 35s at one end and other side touching quasi 5th Gen jets like Chinese 5th Gen, present PAKFA Stage 1, F35s at the other end of spectrum..

Evolving will need serious efforts implying money, R&D or off the shelf purchase and building it again from inside to outside.. Thats as good as re engineering it from the scratch.. On top inspite of its airframe being good for low flying, take it to wind tunnel and you will see far more optimised designs are possible..Rafale being one of the example from the same Dassault... If we want to make a variant out of it, the only way possible legally is to involve and at least get consent from BAe and Dassault to make a Jaguar NG.... They will agree for a royalty price perhaps...

But then the question to ask is if under MII we are having LCA, AMCA, Rafales, MKIs and later FGFA, where will you see Jags also being positioned..

A 200 Jags for dedicated ground attack/maritime/N strike roles means 10-12 squadrons.. that will mean a lot of capex spending for first upgrading it to Jaguar NG product and then building it ...

The better option is to build directly 200 Rafales which can not only take over that role but can do many more..

If we wanted to do it and make Jaguar NG we are at least late by 2-3 decades.. The wheels of time has flown too far ahead my friend..

Let me tag here few more ppl like @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Taygibay @anant_s @mike2000 is back @anant_s
Perhaps these folks here can give a different view and help this out....

Guys, pls go through last 4-5 posts... Its about Jaguars.. Would love to hear your views too..

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## Ankit Kumar

PARIKRAMA said:


> A very good thought process and i agree with points you made..
> 
> BUT
> 
> Orange part Breguet now Dassault is the front of the jags..
> Yellow parwaAC fate has also changed
> _On 29 April 1977, BAC, the Hawker Siddeley Group and Scottish Aviation were nationalised and merged under the provisions of Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Act 1977. This new group was established as a statutory corporation, British Aerospace (BAe).
> British Aircraft Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> _
> How will we make those 2 portions? If we make it without licencing it wont we infringe into IPR and patented stuff? If we do it without seeking permissions and involving the original holder of that part IPR + tech, wont we amount to stealing tech.. If suppose we are reverse engineering it and using it to produce a clone of jags, agaiin dont you think India's long position in global market of respecting IPR will be tarnished at one go....
> 
> Jags are a very capable platform.. But in Today''s time its almost in sunset timeline like 5 pm time for 645 pm sunset.. In era to come at least next 50 years, the platform like Jags either has to evolve to be on par with capable platforms like EF, Rafales,Su 35s at one end and other side touching quasi 5th Gen jets like Chinese 5th Gen, present PAKFA Stage 1, F35s at the other end of spectrum..
> 
> Evolving will need serious efforts implying money, R&D or off the shelf purchase and building it again from inside to outside.. Thats as good as re engineering it from the scratch.. On top inspite of its airframe being good for low flying, take it to wind tunnel and you will see far more optimised designs are possible..Rafale being one of the example from the same Dassault... If we want to make a variant out of it, the only way possible legally is to involve and at least get consent from BAe and Dassault to make a Jaguar NG.... They will agree for a royalty price perhaps...
> 
> But then the question to ask is if under MII we are having LCA, AMCA, Rafales, MKIs and later FGFA, where will you see Jags also being positioned..
> 
> A 200 Jags for dedicated ground attack/maritime/N strike roles means 10-12 squadrons.. that will mean a lot of capex spending for first upgrading it to Jaguar NG product and then building it ...
> 
> The better option is to build directly 200 Rafales which can not only take over that role but can do many more..
> 
> If we wanted to do it and make Jaguar NG we are at least late by 2-3 decades.. The wheels of time has flown too far ahead my friend..
> 
> Let me tag here few more ppl like @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Taygibay @anant_s @mike2000 is back @anant_s
> Perhaps these folks here can give a different view and help this out....
> 
> Guys, pls go through last 4-5 posts... Its about Jaguars.. Would love to hear your views too..



Yes that's one point , we need to get both BAE and Dassault on board. 

Hmm, there are some very peculiar advantages of Jaguars, no doubt about it. 
And yes 200 is too big. 
My personal view was, ~2 squadrons for Navy and some aircrafts for our SFC ( Maybe ~1 squadron ). But I think the Su30s and Rafales will take up the SFCs need better. 

But still I think the shore based Jaguars would have been great assets, we cannot place shore based anti ship missiles everywhere, and also have a vast number of islands to look upon. 1 Squadron in Andaman/Nicobar and one in south India, somewhere from where it can keep a watch at our western islands. 

I still think even if we spend a little more and get Dassault and BAE on board, and build ~30new airframes for Navy with a slightly more powerful engine , a decent radar, avionics and more use of composites in the airframe .... it seems good. 
This way , I mean we are not developing new Jaguar, but just building them with slight improvements. 

We have around ~12 Jaguars for Maritime tasks, I think it's less. 

Also I request some data on what type of license we got from them to build these aircrafts? I mean was there something like we can make only a limited number of aircrafts? 

Also the person had pointed out about how China uses relatively cheaper JH7 for their navy for somewhat similar roles, a comparison will be welcome.

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## PARIKRAMA

@Vauban Sorry forgot to tag you too..

Pls go through last few posts.. would love to hear your views on the Jags ..


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## Taygibay

"Let me fold that chute and stash it in that bush ... there we go! So ...​
​- Funny thing : the image of the new glass cockpit in that Jag infographic in post #1815 ...
is in fact that of the Rafale! Someone made a revealing _lapsus_ _iconae_, wouldn't you say?

- From the following list of French fighters that helped build the IAF and made in Dassault ...
"Forgotten the very first was, young Jedi!" ( in my best fake Yoda voice ) : Toofani / Ouragan ( and Mystère IV BTW );

- Jags would be nearly impossible to build anew today my poor Ankit. None of the tooling remains?
There was a line to be bought of another bird the IAF really likes and that opportunity was passed ...
to protect an aircraft Made In India already. Instead, I'd suggest you lay in that bed you made : Tejas.


Thus, there was no need to call for an air assault PariK, you had it covered with this :


PARIKRAMA said:


> The wheels of time have flown too far ahead my friend..



end of transmission.

... now, darn map, what way to that target?"
"No need to look, Sarge : It's coming at us!"
"???"​

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## PARIKRAMA

Crossposting to keep a record here...

For some good data points

India to buy 4 E-2D Advanced Hawkeye for INS Vishal | Page 3

My initial post where i said F35 is a dinosaur is not meant to be making fun of F35 rather bcz i dont feel its a right choice in any manner.. When i said Dinasaur (wrt to white elephant) i meant to say not only its unnecessarily huge cost, it lacks truly the cutting edge tech as most folks believe it has..
A simple comparison by Auspower by Dr Carlo Kopp







and for the people, something from proprietary side of Saab.. Of course Saab overestimates its own capabilities.. But keep a look out to understand few things in the graph





(credit to original poster in Keypub)

Now supercruise itself is a wrong representation by most fighters including F35s and Gripen NG prototypes. Again credit to the original poster who made me look at aerodynamics chapter again and again.. and this point below is absolutely correct.

The definition of supercruise is "sustained supersonic flight on dry thrust", which means the airflow has to be supersonic over the entire vehicle (which generally means greater than mach 1.1-1.2) and to_ sustain_ it, the aircraft has to be clear the massive rise in wave drag at transonic speeds.








Sadly, F35 fails by Supercruise definition and Dr Carlo Kopp is correct in giving a negative mark in that category...


++

Coming back to this original picture i want to point few more things here






If you look at Rafale vs F18 vs EF what you observe is that Rafale has better operational category to its competitor but interms of LCC EF is marginally cheaper.. Of course EF is not as upgraded as Rafale F3.. which may change the cost factor later with different configs..

So all people who are talking about F18s line in India operationally its going to be far costly then Rafales..

If you compare Rafale vs F35, yes F35 capability is pitted higher but look at the wide gap in LCC.. You think IN would like this "dinosaur".. When we keep hearing the jargon of having efficiency look at the whole produc.. high cost upfront and high cost back also..

Compare F35 with Su35, see how operational capabilities again rafale is marginally better and LCC cost a huge advantage in Rafales favour..Look directly below Su35, thats Su27. So Su MKI comes in between those 2 in terms of capabilities and is LCC wise costly..

So all folks talking about MKI being solution to everything can see its Saab who has done this analysis and is proprietary..

Rafale vs PAKFA a huge leap in capability and higher LCC..Thats why IAF will have a limited fleet but try higher operational availability..

Most folks forget 5th gen stealth coating needs means lot of downtime and essentially huge operational cost and is basically more of hangar queen...

+++
My post here is trying to break pre conceived notions about multiple things..

Firstly 5th Gen huge number fleet is non sustainable (upfront cost and LCC cost)
Performance is not as rosy as people think
Capability gap does not mean all forces can have huge number of 5th gen jet
Rafale and EF were very good choices in MMRCA
Rafale ultimately for IAF and IN is a better choice from capability vs LCC trade off
The Russian fighters are good but LCC cost this proprietary pic is the first and most concrete pictureproof i have seen.. read many places but i at least like this assessment... bcz it shows Gripen NG Better (which i doubt) but for that it definitely plots others pretty much accurately

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## Masterhunter

PARIKRAMA said:


> Crossposting to keep a record here...
> 
> For some good data points
> 
> India to buy 4 E-2D Advanced Hawkeye for INS Vishal | Page 3
> 
> My initial post where i said F35 is a dinosaur is not meant to be making fun of F35 rather bcz i dont feel its a right choice in any manner.. When i said Dinasaur (wrt to white elephant) i meant to say not only its unnecessarily huge cost, it lacks truly the cutting edge tech as most folks believe it has..
> A simple comparison by Auspower by Dr Carlo Kopp
> 
> View attachment 293621
> 
> 
> 
> and for the people, something from proprietary side of Saab.. Of course Saab overestimates its own capabilities.. But keep a look out to understand few things in the graph
> 
> View attachment 293622
> 
> (credit to original poster in Keypub)
> 
> Now supercruise itself is a wrong representation by most fighters including F35s and Gripen NG prototypes. Again credit to the original poster who made me look at aerodynamics chapter again and again.. and this point below is absolutely correct.
> 
> The definition of supercruise is "sustained supersonic flight on dry thrust", which means the airflow has to be supersonic over the entire vehicle (which generally means greater than mach 1.1-1.2) and to_ sustain_ it, the aircraft has to be clear the massive rise in wave drag at transonic speeds.
> 
> 
> View attachment 293623
> 
> 
> 
> Sadly, F35 fails by Supercruise definition and Dr Carlo Kopp is correct in giving a negative mark in that category...
> 
> 
> ++
> 
> Coming back to this original picture i want to point few more things here
> View attachment 293622
> 
> 
> 
> If you look at Rafale vs F18 vs EF what you observe is that Rafale has better operational category to its competitor but interms of LCC EF is marginally cheaper.. Of course EF is not as upgraded as Rafale F3.. which may change the cost factor later with different configs..
> 
> So all people who are talking about F18s line in India operationally its going to be far costly then Rafales..
> 
> If you compare Rafale vs F35, yes F35 capability is pitted higher but look at the wide gap in LCC.. You think IN would like this "dinosaur".. When we keep hearing the jargon of having efficiency look at the whole produc.. high cost upfront and high cost back also..
> 
> Compare F35 with Su35, see how operational capabilities again rafale is marginally better and LCC cost a huge advantage in Rafales favour..Look directly below Su35, thats Su27. So Su MKI comes in between those 2 in terms of capabilities and is LCC wise costly..
> 
> So all folks talking about MKI being solution to everything can see its Saab who has done this analysis and is proprietary..
> 
> Rafale vs PAKFA a huge leap in capability and higher LCC..Thats why IAF will have a limited fleet but try higher operational availability..
> 
> Most folks forget 5th gen stealth coating needs means lot of downtime and essentially huge operational cost and is basically more of hangar queen...
> 
> +++
> My post here is trying to break pre conceived notions about multiple things..
> 
> Firstly 5th Gen huge number fleet is non sustainable (upfront cost and LCC cost)
> Performance is not as rosy as people think
> Capability gap does not mean all forces can have huge number of 5th gen jet
> Rafale and EF were very good choices in MMRCA
> Rafale ultimately for IAF and IN is a better choice from capability vs LCC trade off
> The Russian fighters are good but LCC cost this proprietary pic is the first and most concrete pictureproof i have seen.. read many places but i at least like this assessment... bcz it shows Gripen NG Better (which i doubt) but for that it definitely plots others pretty much accurately


 
This is the blunt truth which is most of the F35/Su 35/ Su30 fanboys are not willing to understand in the rafale deal. 
1. IAF don't need Su35.. They already have Su30 and with upgrades, IAF is satisfied with it.
2. LCC of rafale is way cheaper than su35/su30.. Despite the fact that present deal may appear exorbiant...
3. Rafale/Su35 (4.5++ Gen planes) will not becoming irrelevant once major AF around the world gets 5th Gen planes, as 5gen is too costly to operate in major numbers by most countries barring USA and china, followed by Russia and India in decent numbers.
4. F35 in its present state is not fulfilling the 5 Gen criteria and also not able to do most of the jobs well, its like jack of all trades and mastr of none. What future holds we may not know. USA will be able to make it good plane to use under aircover of raptors/6th Gen plane.. About rest we dont know.

And u have explained all this with this post... 
Nicely done.

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## PARIKRAMA

Masterhunter said:


> This is the blunt truth which is most of the F35/Su 35/ Su30 fanboys are not willing to understand in the rafale deal.
> 1. IAF don't need Su35.. They already have Su30 and with upgrades, IAF is satisfied with it.
> 2. LCC of rafale is way cheaper than su35/su30.. Despite the fact that present deal may appear exorbiant...
> 3. Rafale/Su35 (4.5++ Gen planes) will not becoming irrelevant once major AF around the world gets 5th Gen planes, as 5gen is too costly to operate in major numbers by most countries barring USA and china, followed by Russia and India in decent numbers.
> 4. F35 in its present state is not fulfilling the 5 Gen criteria and also not able to do most of the jobs well, its like jack of all trades and mastr of none. What future holds we may not know. USA will be able to make it good plane to use under aircover of raptors/6th Gen plane.. About rest we dont know.
> 
> And u have explained all this with this post...
> Nicely done.


Thank you Sir...

And may i know who you are my good sir ... a expat returning or a all together new member?


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## Masterhunter

PARIKRAMA said:


> Thank you Sir...
> 
> And may i know who you are my good sir ... a expat returning or a all together new member?


A new member.... Joined today but following PDF and *** for eight months now...u may find my post on IDF/IDRW usually

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## PARIKRAMA

Masterhunter said:


> A new member.... Joined today but following PDF and *** for eight months now...u may find my post on IDF/IDRW usually



Thank you Sir, and welcome to pdf..

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## PARIKRAMA

+++
Enjoy this reading.... 
Trivia question: *Which country funded this write up?*
+++

*Fighters for the IAF: Creating paths to a dead-end*

Our pseudonymous analyst Mark is back with his take on the story so far of the IAF’s quest for fighter aircraft. 




French Armée de l’Air Dassault Rafale | Photo: StratPost

This Gujarati goes up to a shop and says, “Give me 126 apples for INR 1100.” The shopkeeper isn’t too pleased that he is getting so little for his prime golden apples plucked off the most prized trees in his orchard. But the market is bad so he expects to make money out of the trimmings and the basket and maybe sell him some nice cherries to go. So he starts putting them into the basket. Suddenly, the Gujarati changes his mind. He tells the apple seller, “You know what, forget it. Give me 36 for INR 1100.”

Those who know their Gujarati will tell you that no good _Gujju_ even has such nightmares.

Yet, that about sums up how the Indian Air Force (IAF) is on the verge of achieving its dream of having those French birds called Rafale, 36 for the price of 126. The action on the no-name, no-format, no-logic 36 had started with the last government’s MMRCA (IAF tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft) process. That was handled more or less in the same fashion where you would ask your driver to go and buy a car he likes and he returns with a Ferrari.

Having inherited that tidy mess from the predecessor government, the incumbent one saw the issue squarely. And then proceeded to magnificently lose its way.

There were half a dozen inescapable realities that faced the Modi government:

*First*, we needed new planes. A rash of them. About 600 by any count by 2030.
*Second*, the LCA (Tejas Light Combat Aircraft) was a great patriotic flying machine that could at best be used for kamikaze manoeuvres in the event of a war, if HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) did manage to churn them out at a rate more than two a year.
*Third*, there was a clear mismatch between aircraft required and aircraft that were being sought. Yet another twin engine aircraft (indeed two) had emerged ‘victorious’ in an air force that was getting crippled by a continuous bleeding of single-engine MiG-21 aircraft.
*Fourth*, we just didn’t have enough money to spare to buy the 126 aircraft if one peeked at the numbers. The air force having smartly eliminated the single engines, had smugly put on the table one expensive and another even more expensive aircraft to choose from. There was clearly no irony in the self-congratulatory ‘we-should-patent-our-process’ back-slaps that a former air chief gave himself.
*Fifth*, the chosen aircraft was a bad choice in every way possible, especially when the LCA didn’t look like it would be able to make up the numbers. The French had no purpose larger than getting an order of 126 aircraft, maybe more. They had to sustain the aircraft and its ancillary industry back home. They had been virtually shepherded through the process by the IAF.

*The only plausible reason that the Rafale had snuck through was because the other contenders were no better off: The F-16 and F-18 were long in the tooth; the Gripen NG and the MiG-35 were more on paper than flying aircraft and the Eurofighter was more or less on par with the Rafale and its original orders were getting whittled down due to prohibitive costs.*

The other big point that was missed in the entire process was that you don’t buy aircraft like gizmos, you buy them with a larger objective – it’s not about choosing between an iPhone 6.5.3.2 and a Samsung 6.7.2.1 with a checklist.

*A lot of water has flown under the bridge since and the Rafale looked like a bad, bad choice. The costs of the Rafale had turned out to be prohibitive. This government, unlike the last one, had come in with a clear industrial outlook to defense – it was quite clear that it would buy aircraft only if it resulted in actually implanting a whole industry in defense.*

*Without the ‘Public Sector’ and ‘Strategic Defense industry’ fetters shackling its mind, the Modi government figured that such a large outgo could be that one big shot needed to build a defense industry, create jobs and, along the way, ensure that there were sufficient numbers of big corporate beneficiaries for its political war chest.*

*In that context, the American and Swedish offers of transferring everything lock, stock and barrel looked enticingly welcome. The Gripen E had finally taken off from the drawing board and become a real aircraft that ticked all the boxes except one – global strategic weight. The Boeing F/A-18 offer looks just as tempting given that that India was also ramping up its aircraft carrier fleet and the Navy’s MiG-29 were spending more time resting on the ground than up in the sky. The reason why the older F/A-18 still held merit was simply because it provided the potential of a large industrial base shifting to India in a short duration – with little resistance from US domestic interests.*

*And, finally, the LCA was dead as a dodo as a frontline fighter. Urgent measures were needed to not only take the LCAs to their next generation but to create a platform where development was accompanied by the creation of a manufacturing framework. As things stood, they were bespoke aircraft where replacements for failed parts had to be literally machined together.*

*The best kept secret – rather, the big dung heap in the room that everyone in the know publicly refuses to mention (except now and then a CAG report that lets out a worm or two) – was that the aircraft’s biggest failing was that someone had forgotten to do the planning for standardized production*. *The aircraft that are flying are held together by customized pieces, literally machined and tailored. In cultured English, they call it bespoke fighters; in Hindi they call it jugaad.*

*It goes to the maturity of the current government that it took little stocktaking to figure out that Saint Antony had left behind such a complex web of particular interests that it needed a bold stroke to cut through.*

There were four measures that were politically implemented:
*First*, the MMRCA shop was shut. An order of 36 was placed to mollify the French. But so closely held was this manoeuver that someone forgot to check how many aircraft actually made up an operational squadron. The G2G (government-to-government) route was born. No one stopped to question that, while the Rafale G2G order got acquiescence simply because it had emerged as the ‘top choice’ of the IAF in the MMRCA roulette, it would take more than the say-so of the prime minister to sign the next G2G.
*Second*, the LCA Mk II was given a quick burial to stop another round of interminable wastage.
*Third*, a large order was placed on the LCA. Giving the best example yet of ‘Fake In India’, India would now have five squadrons of aircraft in operation somewhere around the time Rahul Gandhi’s children graduate (This, despite some fairly scathing CAG criticism on the penchant for placing premature orders).

*But what it did do was to give the government the room to go ahead and put in place its alternative route to a quick, robust India-led defense aerospace industry, which would more or less follow the same principles as the development of the auto industry in India.*

*Fourth*, and this is where it is turning the thinking on acquisition on its head, there seems to be a very clear direction that a large fighter order to fill the gap of a single engine (after accounting for the mythical beast Tejas) would be principally directed at breeding an aerospace industry.

*It seems evident that the gameplan is to get the organization that can best deliver the numbers, technology, spin-offs and industry. The winner or winners would be those who deliver an industry rather than the aircraft that caters purely to our top guns’ flights of fantasy.*

Having, in a manner of speaking, cleared the decks, the process then proceeded to lose its way. *The reasons are plentiful. None of the Indian private companies setting up ‘aerospace’ centers have the faintest clue of either the defense or aerospace business. Worse, there is growing suspicion that their interest is limited to being beneficiaries of a government-mandated handout where orders would be furnished and technology from partners would be served up on a platter.*

One of the most scathing criticisms of the Tejas has been its poor indigenization rate – less than 35 percent of the aircraft is indigenous. In essence, there has to be a very large and significant investment in upstream companies that would deliver components.

*Given those challenges, it is quite evident that the supplying company would have to play a very large role in creation of both the manufacturing capacity as well as upstream development. However, that may prove easier said than done since it would essentially involve foreign partners handing over the keys to the full production chain without any control over the company. Further, there would remain that vexatious issue of not being able to secure sovereign guarantees from an Indian majority-owned company.*

*Another part that the Modi government understands well – from its prior experience in Gujarat – is that it takes a whole slew of policy sops and more to get industries to set up: Open access, land at throw away rates, tax holidays, energy infrastructure, freeing of restraints on imported inputs and a very free hand. A drive from Ahmedabad to Surat would show the large units that have come up across the state from investments made by companies with diverse origins.*

*Take the case of the Tata Nano. Modi is said to have offered sops that totaled up to INR 30,000 crore to get the project to the state. Across the board, the Modi government in Gujarat made business an attractive proposition by literally seed funding enterprises with land, loans and cash assistance. Yet, in the defense sector, global firms are being asked to take the shirts off their backs and come to the party.*

In effect, there is possibly the understanding that a simple DPP (Defense Procurement Procedure) will not do the trick – except possibly setting down the process for a G2G order. Even that may not prove to be a cakewalk. Any selection of this nature has to have some basis. The large discretion that the decision-maker exercises may well prove to be, as in the case of Bofors, a political albatross of gargantuan proportions. It becomes, potentially, even murkier when an Indian partner is involved. Given that few of those who have raised their hand can qualify to be Caesar’s wife, it would be another messy minefield to deal with.

*When the government strode into this situation, they were thinking of what they had done in Gujarat very well – picked the player for the sector; given him land, loans, sops and cleared out the regulatory mess. The result was setting up of units in a remarkably short time. And then, as the deeper implications of what it meant to do the same thing in Delhi sank in, bit by bit, the non-process slowed down, got muddled and is now mumbling its way through to what may turn out to be yet another dead-end.*

As we come close to celebrating the fifth year after the famous down-selection of the MMRCA, let’s hope there is someone out there with the ability to cut the Gordian knot.

_Note: All emphasis original._

Fighters for the IAF: Creating paths to a dead-end | StratPost

++
@Taygibay @Vauban @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @anant_s 
Why i am having a sneaky suspicion this hit out job is funded by Boeing/ USA ..


----------



## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> Crossposting to keep a record here...
> 
> For some good data points
> 
> India to buy 4 E-2D Advanced Hawkeye for INS Vishal | Page 3
> 
> and for the people, something from proprietary side of Saab.. Of course Saab overestimates its own capabilities.. But keep a look out to understand few things in the graph
> 
> If you look at Rafale vs F18 vs EF what you observe is that Rafale has better operational category to its competitor but interms of LCC EF is marginally cheaper.. Of course EF is not as upgraded as Rafale F3.. which may change the cost factor later with different configs..


On this picture, the Rafale LCC cost is false, because everybody refer to a Jane's study where the Rafale flight hour cost is said to be 16500 $. But it was the cost when they were only a few Rafale inducted. Now the flight hour cost is around 10000 $ only it was officially stated in a SENAT report (SENAT is a kind of French parliement).

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## Blue Marlin

PARIKRAMA said:


> +++
> Enjoy this reading....
> Trivia question: *Which country funded this write up?*
> +++
> 
> *Fighters for the IAF: Creating paths to a dead-end*
> 
> Our pseudonymous analyst Mark is back with his take on the story so far of the IAF’s quest for fighter aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> French Armée de l’Air Dassault Rafale | Photo: StratPost
> 
> This Gujarati goes up to a shop and says, “Give me 126 apples for INR 1100.” The shopkeeper isn’t too pleased that he is getting so little for his prime golden apples plucked off the most prized trees in his orchard. But the market is bad so he expects to make money out of the trimmings and the basket and maybe sell him some nice cherries to go. So he starts putting them into the basket. Suddenly, the Gujarati changes his mind. He tells the apple seller, “You know what, forget it. Give me 36 for INR 1100.”
> 
> Those who know their Gujarati will tell you that no good _Gujju_ even has such nightmares.
> 
> Yet, that about sums up how the Indian Air Force (IAF) is on the verge of achieving its dream of having those French birds called Rafale, 36 for the price of 126. The action on the no-name, no-format, no-logic 36 had started with the last government’s MMRCA (IAF tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft) process. That was handled more or less in the same fashion where you would ask your driver to go and buy a car he likes and he returns with a Ferrari.
> 
> Having inherited that tidy mess from the predecessor government, the incumbent one saw the issue squarely. And then proceeded to magnificently lose its way.
> 
> There were half a dozen inescapable realities that faced the Modi government:
> 
> *First*, we needed new planes. A rash of them. About 600 by any count by 2030.
> *Second*, the LCA (Tejas Light Combat Aircraft) was a great patriotic flying machine that could at best be used for kamikaze manoeuvres in the event of a war, if HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) did manage to churn them out at a rate more than two a year.
> *Third*, there was a clear mismatch between aircraft required and aircraft that were being sought. Yet another twin engine aircraft (indeed two) had emerged ‘victorious’ in an air force that was getting crippled by a continuous bleeding of single-engine MiG-21 aircraft.
> *Fourth*, we just didn’t have enough money to spare to buy the 126 aircraft if one peeked at the numbers. The air force having smartly eliminated the single engines, had smugly put on the table one expensive and another even more expensive aircraft to choose from. There was clearly no irony in the self-congratulatory ‘we-should-patent-our-process’ back-slaps that a former air chief gave himself.
> *Fifth*, the chosen aircraft was a bad choice in every way possible, especially when the LCA didn’t look like it would be able to make up the numbers. The French had no purpose larger than getting an order of 126 aircraft, maybe more. They had to sustain the aircraft and its ancillary industry back home. They had been virtually shepherded through the process by the IAF.
> 
> *The only plausible reason that the Rafale had snuck through was because the other contenders were no better off: The F-16 and F-18 were long in the tooth; the Gripen NG and the MiG-35 were more on paper than flying aircraft and the Eurofighter was more or less on par with the Rafale and its original orders were getting whittled down due to prohibitive costs.*
> 
> The other big point that was missed in the entire process was that you don’t buy aircraft like gizmos, you buy them with a larger objective – it’s not about choosing between an iPhone 6.5.3.2 and a Samsung 6.7.2.1 with a checklist.
> 
> *A lot of water has flown under the bridge since and the Rafale looked like a bad, bad choice. The costs of the Rafale had turned out to be prohibitive. This government, unlike the last one, had come in with a clear industrial outlook to defense – it was quite clear that it would buy aircraft only if it resulted in actually implanting a whole industry in defense.*
> 
> *Without the ‘Public Sector’ and ‘Strategic Defense industry’ fetters shackling its mind, the Modi government figured that such a large outgo could be that one big shot needed to build a defense industry, create jobs and, along the way, ensure that there were sufficient numbers of big corporate beneficiaries for its political war chest.*
> 
> *In that context, the American and Swedish offers of transferring everything lock, stock and barrel looked enticingly welcome. The Gripen E had finally taken off from the drawing board and become a real aircraft that ticked all the boxes except one – global strategic weight. The Boeing F/A-18 offer looks just as tempting given that that India was also ramping up its aircraft carrier fleet and the Navy’s MiG-29 were spending more time resting on the ground than up in the sky. The reason why the older F/A-18 still held merit was simply because it provided the potential of a large industrial base shifting to India in a short duration – with little resistance from US domestic interests.*
> 
> *And, finally, the LCA was dead as a dodo as a frontline fighter. Urgent measures were needed to not only take the LCAs to their next generation but to create a platform where development was accompanied by the creation of a manufacturing framework. As things stood, they were bespoke aircraft where replacements for failed parts had to be literally machined together.*
> 
> *The best kept secret – rather, the big dung heap in the room that everyone in the know publicly refuses to mention (except now and then a CAG report that lets out a worm or two) – was that the aircraft’s biggest failing was that someone had forgotten to do the planning for standardized production*. *The aircraft that are flying are held together by customized pieces, literally machined and tailored. In cultured English, they call it bespoke fighters; in Hindi they call it jugaad.*
> 
> *It goes to the maturity of the current government that it took little stocktaking to figure out that Saint Antony had left behind such a complex web of particular interests that it needed a bold stroke to cut through.*
> 
> There were four measures that were politically implemented:
> *First*, the MMRCA shop was shut. An order of 36 was placed to mollify the French. But so closely held was this manoeuver that someone forgot to check how many aircraft actually made up an operational squadron. The G2G (government-to-government) route was born. No one stopped to question that, while the Rafale G2G order got acquiescence simply because it had emerged as the ‘top choice’ of the IAF in the MMRCA roulette, it would take more than the say-so of the prime minister to sign the next G2G.
> *Second*, the LCA Mk II was given a quick burial to stop another round of interminable wastage.
> *Third*, a large order was placed on the LCA. Giving the best example yet of ‘Fake In India’, India would now have five squadrons of aircraft in operation somewhere around the time Rahul Gandhi’s children graduate (This, despite some fairly scathing CAG criticism on the penchant for placing premature orders).
> 
> *But what it did do was to give the government the room to go ahead and put in place its alternative route to a quick, robust India-led defense aerospace industry, which would more or less follow the same principles as the development of the auto industry in India.*
> 
> *Fourth*, and this is where it is turning the thinking on acquisition on its head, there seems to be a very clear direction that a large fighter order to fill the gap of a single engine (after accounting for the mythical beast Tejas) would be principally directed at breeding an aerospace industry.
> 
> *It seems evident that the gameplan is to get the organization that can best deliver the numbers, technology, spin-offs and industry. The winner or winners would be those who deliver an industry rather than the aircraft that caters purely to our top guns’ flights of fantasy.*
> 
> Having, in a manner of speaking, cleared the decks, the process then proceeded to lose its way. *The reasons are plentiful. None of the Indian private companies setting up ‘aerospace’ centers have the faintest clue of either the defense or aerospace business. Worse, there is growing suspicion that their interest is limited to being beneficiaries of a government-mandated handout where orders would be furnished and technology from partners would be served up on a platter.*
> 
> One of the most scathing criticisms of the Tejas has been its poor indigenization rate – less than 35 percent of the aircraft is indigenous. In essence, there has to be a very large and significant investment in upstream companies that would deliver components.
> 
> *Given those challenges, it is quite evident that the supplying company would have to play a very large role in creation of both the manufacturing capacity as well as upstream development. However, that may prove easier said than done since it would essentially involve foreign partners handing over the keys to the full production chain without any control over the company. Further, there would remain that vexatious issue of not being able to secure sovereign guarantees from an Indian majority-owned company.*
> 
> *Another part that the Modi government understands well – from its prior experience in Gujarat – is that it takes a whole slew of policy sops and more to get industries to set up: Open access, land at throw away rates, tax holidays, energy infrastructure, freeing of restraints on imported inputs and a very free hand. A drive from Ahmedabad to Surat would show the large units that have come up across the state from investments made by companies with diverse origins.*
> 
> *Take the case of the Tata Nano. Modi is said to have offered sops that totaled up to INR 30,000 crore to get the project to the state. Across the board, the Modi government in Gujarat made business an attractive proposition by literally seed funding enterprises with land, loans and cash assistance. Yet, in the defense sector, global firms are being asked to take the shirts off their backs and come to the party.*
> 
> In effect, there is possibly the understanding that a simple DPP (Defense Procurement Procedure) will not do the trick – except possibly setting down the process for a G2G order. Even that may not prove to be a cakewalk. Any selection of this nature has to have some basis. The large discretion that the decision-maker exercises may well prove to be, as in the case of Bofors, a political albatross of gargantuan proportions. It becomes, potentially, even murkier when an Indian partner is involved. Given that few of those who have raised their hand can qualify to be Caesar’s wife, it would be another messy minefield to deal with.
> 
> *When the government strode into this situation, they were thinking of what they had done in Gujarat very well – picked the player for the sector; given him land, loans, sops and cleared out the regulatory mess. The result was setting up of units in a remarkably short time. And then, as the deeper implications of what it meant to do the same thing in Delhi sank in, bit by bit, the non-process slowed down, got muddled and is now mumbling its way through to what may turn out to be yet another dead-end.*
> 
> As we come close to celebrating the fifth year after the famous down-selection of the MMRCA, let’s hope there is someone out there with the ability to cut the Gordian knot.
> 
> _Note: All emphasis original._
> 
> Fighters for the IAF: Creating paths to a dead-end | StratPost
> 
> ++
> @Taygibay @Vauban @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @anant_s
> Why i am having a sneaky suspicion this hit out job is funded by Boeing/ USA ..


 hi 
there was a similar article from defence news too
Cloudy Future for Domestic Indian Aircraft Production

they need to get their head screwed on here. i think that boeing is messing you around as well as germany, uk, spain italy and sweden. so they can sell their jets to you. personally i think the rafale deal is a disaster and should look at the f18 as a long term complement between the lca and the mki. i think this is a good idea but some may argue this because the amca will fill in the role, but they fail to understand that the amca is about 15 years away from now and hal is known for delaying their projects the lca is an example of this.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## raktaka

PARIKRAMA said:


> +++
> Enjoy this reading....
> Trivia question: *Which country funded this write up?*
> +++
> 
> *Fighters for the IAF: Creating paths to a dead-end*
> 
> Our pseudonymous analyst Mark is back with his take on the story so far of the IAF’s quest for fighter aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> French Armée de l’Air Dassault Rafale | Photo: StratPost
> 
> This Gujarati goes up to a shop and says, “Give me 126 apples for INR 1100.” The shopkeeper isn’t too pleased that he is getting so little for his prime golden apples plucked off the most prized trees in his orchard. But the market is bad so he expects to make money out of the trimmings and the basket and maybe sell him some nice cherries to go. So he starts putting them into the basket. Suddenly, the Gujarati changes his mind. He tells the apple seller, “You know what, forget it. Give me 36 for INR 1100.”
> 
> Those who know their Gujarati will tell you that no good _Gujju_ even has such nightmares.
> 
> Yet, that about sums up how the Indian Air Force (IAF) is on the verge of achieving its dream of having those French birds called Rafale, 36 for the price of 126. The action on the no-name, no-format, no-logic 36 had started with the last government’s MMRCA (IAF tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft) process. That was handled more or less in the same fashion where you would ask your driver to go and buy a car he likes and he returns with a Ferrari.
> 
> Having inherited that tidy mess from the predecessor government, the incumbent one saw the issue squarely. And then proceeded to magnificently lose its way.
> 
> There were half a dozen inescapable realities that faced the Modi government:
> 
> *First*, we needed new planes. A rash of them. About 600 by any count by 2030.
> *Second*, the LCA (Tejas Light Combat Aircraft) was a great patriotic flying machine that could at best be used for kamikaze manoeuvres in the event of a war, if HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) did manage to churn them out at a rate more than two a year.
> *Third*, there was a clear mismatch between aircraft required and aircraft that were being sought. Yet another twin engine aircraft (indeed two) had emerged ‘victorious’ in an air force that was getting crippled by a continuous bleeding of single-engine MiG-21 aircraft.
> *Fourth*, we just didn’t have enough money to spare to buy the 126 aircraft if one peeked at the numbers. The air force having smartly eliminated the single engines, had smugly put on the table one expensive and another even more expensive aircraft to choose from. There was clearly no irony in the self-congratulatory ‘we-should-patent-our-process’ back-slaps that a former air chief gave himself.
> *Fifth*, the chosen aircraft was a bad choice in every way possible, especially when the LCA didn’t look like it would be able to make up the numbers. The French had no purpose larger than getting an order of 126 aircraft, maybe more. They had to sustain the aircraft and its ancillary industry back home. They had been virtually shepherded through the process by the IAF.
> 
> *The only plausible reason that the Rafale had snuck through was because the other contenders were no better off: The F-16 and F-18 were long in the tooth; the Gripen NG and the MiG-35 were more on paper than flying aircraft and the Eurofighter was more or less on par with the Rafale and its original orders were getting whittled down due to prohibitive costs.*
> 
> The other big point that was missed in the entire process was that you don’t buy aircraft like gizmos, you buy them with a larger objective – it’s not about choosing between an iPhone 6.5.3.2 and a Samsung 6.7.2.1 with a checklist.
> 
> *A lot of water has flown under the bridge since and the Rafale looked like a bad, bad choice. The costs of the Rafale had turned out to be prohibitive. This government, unlike the last one, had come in with a clear industrial outlook to defense – it was quite clear that it would buy aircraft only if it resulted in actually implanting a whole industry in defense.*
> 
> *Without the ‘Public Sector’ and ‘Strategic Defense industry’ fetters shackling its mind, the Modi government figured that such a large outgo could be that one big shot needed to build a defense industry, create jobs and, along the way, ensure that there were sufficient numbers of big corporate beneficiaries for its political war chest.*
> 
> *In that context, the American and Swedish offers of transferring everything lock, stock and barrel looked enticingly welcome. The Gripen E had finally taken off from the drawing board and become a real aircraft that ticked all the boxes except one – global strategic weight. The Boeing F/A-18 offer looks just as tempting given that that India was also ramping up its aircraft carrier fleet and the Navy’s MiG-29 were spending more time resting on the ground than up in the sky. The reason why the older F/A-18 still held merit was simply because it provided the potential of a large industrial base shifting to India in a short duration – with little resistance from US domestic interests.*
> 
> *And, finally, the LCA was dead as a dodo as a frontline fighter. Urgent measures were needed to not only take the LCAs to their next generation but to create a platform where development was accompanied by the creation of a manufacturing framework. As things stood, they were bespoke aircraft where replacements for failed parts had to be literally machined together.*
> 
> *The best kept secret – rather, the big dung heap in the room that everyone in the know publicly refuses to mention (except now and then a CAG report that lets out a worm or two) – was that the aircraft’s biggest failing was that someone had forgotten to do the planning for standardized production*. *The aircraft that are flying are held together by customized pieces, literally machined and tailored. In cultured English, they call it bespoke fighters; in Hindi they call it jugaad.*
> 
> *It goes to the maturity of the current government that it took little stocktaking to figure out that Saint Antony had left behind such a complex web of particular interests that it needed a bold stroke to cut through.*
> 
> There were four measures that were politically implemented:
> *First*, the MMRCA shop was shut. An order of 36 was placed to mollify the French. But so closely held was this manoeuver that someone forgot to check how many aircraft actually made up an operational squadron. The G2G (government-to-government) route was born. No one stopped to question that, while the Rafale G2G order got acquiescence simply because it had emerged as the ‘top choice’ of the IAF in the MMRCA roulette, it would take more than the say-so of the prime minister to sign the next G2G.
> *Second*, the LCA Mk II was given a quick burial to stop another round of interminable wastage.
> *Third*, a large order was placed on the LCA. Giving the best example yet of ‘Fake In India’, India would now have five squadrons of aircraft in operation somewhere around the time Rahul Gandhi’s children graduate (This, despite some fairly scathing CAG criticism on the penchant for placing premature orders).
> 
> *But what it did do was to give the government the room to go ahead and put in place its alternative route to a quick, robust India-led defense aerospace industry, which would more or less follow the same principles as the development of the auto industry in India.*
> 
> *Fourth*, and this is where it is turning the thinking on acquisition on its head, there seems to be a very clear direction that a large fighter order to fill the gap of a single engine (after accounting for the mythical beast Tejas) would be principally directed at breeding an aerospace industry.
> 
> *It seems evident that the gameplan is to get the organization that can best deliver the numbers, technology, spin-offs and industry. The winner or winners would be those who deliver an industry rather than the aircraft that caters purely to our top guns’ flights of fantasy.*
> 
> Having, in a manner of speaking, cleared the decks, the process then proceeded to lose its way. *The reasons are plentiful. None of the Indian private companies setting up ‘aerospace’ centers have the faintest clue of either the defense or aerospace business. Worse, there is growing suspicion that their interest is limited to being beneficiaries of a government-mandated handout where orders would be furnished and technology from partners would be served up on a platter.*
> 
> One of the most scathing criticisms of the Tejas has been its poor indigenization rate – less than 35 percent of the aircraft is indigenous. In essence, there has to be a very large and significant investment in upstream companies that would deliver components.
> 
> *Given those challenges, it is quite evident that the supplying company would have to play a very large role in creation of both the manufacturing capacity as well as upstream development. However, that may prove easier said than done since it would essentially involve foreign partners handing over the keys to the full production chain without any control over the company. Further, there would remain that vexatious issue of not being able to secure sovereign guarantees from an Indian majority-owned company.*
> 
> *Another part that the Modi government understands well – from its prior experience in Gujarat – is that it takes a whole slew of policy sops and more to get industries to set up: Open access, land at throw away rates, tax holidays, energy infrastructure, freeing of restraints on imported inputs and a very free hand. A drive from Ahmedabad to Surat would show the large units that have come up across the state from investments made by companies with diverse origins.*
> 
> *Take the case of the Tata Nano. Modi is said to have offered sops that totaled up to INR 30,000 crore to get the project to the state. Across the board, the Modi government in Gujarat made business an attractive proposition by literally seed funding enterprises with land, loans and cash assistance. Yet, in the defense sector, global firms are being asked to take the shirts off their backs and come to the party.*
> 
> In effect, there is possibly the understanding that a simple DPP (Defense Procurement Procedure) will not do the trick – except possibly setting down the process for a G2G order. Even that may not prove to be a cakewalk. Any selection of this nature has to have some basis. The large discretion that the decision-maker exercises may well prove to be, as in the case of Bofors, a political albatross of gargantuan proportions. It becomes, potentially, even murkier when an Indian partner is involved. Given that few of those who have raised their hand can qualify to be Caesar’s wife, it would be another messy minefield to deal with.
> 
> *When the government strode into this situation, they were thinking of what they had done in Gujarat very well – picked the player for the sector; given him land, loans, sops and cleared out the regulatory mess. The result was setting up of units in a remarkably short time. And then, as the deeper implications of what it meant to do the same thing in Delhi sank in, bit by bit, the non-process slowed down, got muddled and is now mumbling its way through to what may turn out to be yet another dead-end.*
> 
> As we come close to celebrating the fifth year after the famous down-selection of the MMRCA, let’s hope there is someone out there with the ability to cut the Gordian knot.
> 
> _Note: All emphasis original._
> 
> Fighters for the IAF: Creating paths to a dead-end | StratPost
> 
> ++
> @Taygibay @Vauban @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @anant_s
> Why i am having a sneaky suspicion this hit out job is funded by Boeing/ USA ..



I did love this part  

*That was handled more or less in the same fashion where you would ask your driver to go and buy a car he likes and he returns with a Ferrari. *


----------



## PARIKRAMA

@Picdelamirand-oil 
Are you Picdelamirand from various other forum?
If yes, welcome.. finally good to have you here...


----------



## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Picdelamirand-oil
> Are you Picdelamirand from various other forum?
> If yes, welcome.. finally good to have you here...


Yes you are right. Thank you for your welcome.

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Yes you are right. Thank you for your welcome.


Oh nice..
Could you provide me link to senat report.. For flight hour cost as surely they brings down a part of opex cost.. 16000 to 10000 USD or under is a significant more than 1/3 rd savings..

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1


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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Yes you are right. Thank you for your welcome.



That forum could be dead, who knows.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Oh nice..
> Could you provide me link to senat report.. For flight hour cost as surely they brings down a part of opex cost.. 16000 to 10000 USD or under is a significant more than 1/3 rd savings..



French costs are not a representation of costs in India.

Rafales fly for 240 hours in France in a year, the cost is 2.4M per Rafale, including fuel. The publicly released CPFH for Rafale was in warzones, which is obviously more expensive due to higher pay and transport costs of parts and consumables.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> That forum could be dead, who knows.
> 
> 
> 
> French costs are not a representation of costs in India.
> 
> Rafales fly for 240 hours in France in a year, the cost is 2.4M per Rafale, including fuel. The publicly released CPFH for Rafale was in warzones, which is obviously more expensive due to higher pay and transport costs of parts and consumables.


Welcome to you too..

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> Welcome to you too..



Hey, sorry I can't reply to your profile message. I don't think I have sufficient permission. Maybe if you start a conversation, it may work out.

Mods can delete this. Thanks.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> Oh nice..
> Could you provide me link to senat report.. For flight hour cost as surely they brings down a part of opex cost.. 16000 to 10000 USD or under is a significant more than 1/3 rd savings..


I had some difficulties to find it, I will try later, but I found something as good as the SENAT report. But you have to know firsrt that in France we have 1.4 pilot by Rafale and each pilote have to be trained during 180 h/year so each Rafale flight during 250h/year. If a Rafale reach 250 h before the end of the year it stop to fly to preserve potential.

Maintenance/MRO cost of the Rafale:

life expectancy : 7500 h (update 9000h possible)

Rafale B/C in 2012: 

Total MRO cost: 182,60 millions
Aircraft : 77 
Annual cost per aircraft : 2,371 millions
Cost per flight hour (250 hours): 9484
Assemblee nationale | Question ecrite N° 22636 de M. Francois Cornut-Gentille (UMP - Haute-Marne)


Rafale M in 2013: 

Total MRO cost : 100,7 millions 
Aircraft : 35 
Annual cost per aircraft : 2,877 millions
Cost per flight hour (250 hours): 11508
Assemblee nationale | Question ecrite N° 47343 de M. Francois Cornut-Gentille (UMP - Haute-Marne)

I can't create a link (too young!)

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> I had some difficulties to find it, I will try later, but I found something as good as the SENAT report. But you have to know firsrt that in France we have 1.4 pilot by Rafale and each pilote have to be trained during 180 h/year so each Rafale flight during 250h/year. If a Rafale reach 250 h before the end of the year it stop to fly to preserve potential.
> 
> Maintenance/MRO cost of the Rafale:
> 
> life expectancy : 7500 h (update 9000h possible)
> 
> Rafale B/C in 2012:
> 
> Total MRO cost: 182,60 millions
> Aircraft : 77
> Annual cost per aircraft : 2,371 millions
> Cost per flight hour (250 hours): 9484
> Assemblee nationale | Question ecrite N° 22636 de M. Francois Cornut-Gentille (UMP - Haute-Marne)
> 
> 
> Rafale M in 2013:
> 
> Total MRO cost : 100,7 millions
> Aircraft : 35
> Annual cost per aircraft : 2,877 millions
> Cost per flight hour (250 hours): 11508
> Assemblee nationale | Question ecrite N° 47343 de M. Francois Cornut-Gentille (UMP - Haute-Marne)
> 
> I can't create a link (too young!)




Got it
I will link it for you...

Question n°22636 - Assemblée nationale






Question n°47343 - Assemblée nationale






Would you also comment a bit about availability rate? I dont think FrAF maintains a supply of spares all the while right due to cost savings.. or was there some other reasons..


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## Picdelamirand-oil

If you google with 
Assemblee nationale | Question ecrite N° 22636 de M. Francois Cornut-Gentille (UMP - Haute-Marne)
You will find a french forum and a post where the link is given. But you have to copy the textof the link because the link of the link is not the same (not the right one!)

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> If you google with
> Assemblee nationale | Question ecrite N° 22636 de M. Francois Cornut-Gentille (UMP - Haute-Marne)
> You will find a french forum and a post where the link is given. But you have to copy the textof the link because the link of the link is not the same (not the right one!)


so you mean the above post links are in correct.. i mean the tables?

Edit: I did google and went to the link and copy pasted the text to the french question on 14th Legislature


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## Vergennes

PARIKRAMA said:


> Got it
> I will link it for you...
> 
> Question n°22636 - Assemblée nationale
> View attachment 293792
> 
> 
> Question n°47343 - Assemblée nationale
> 
> View attachment 293793
> 
> 
> Would you also comment a bit about availability rate? I dont think FrAF maintains a supply of spares all the while right due to cost savings.. or was there some other reasons..



Here are recent datas.






If i'm not wrong,it's just the current funds that cannot permit a higher disponibility rate....
For the helicopter fleet,it's even worse.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> Got it
> I will link it for you...
> 
> Would you also comment a bit about availability rate? I dont think FrAF maintains a supply of spares all the while right due to cost savings.. or was there some other reasons..


For the availability rate we have two rate, one is technical and the other is operational. From an operational point of view if a rafale reach 250 hours, it is not operationally available so it decrease the operational availability, also for Rafale M the 10 Rafale which are at standard 1 and in the process to be modified are not available. So this operational availability doesn't reflect the true Rafale availability but the way the French use it. The technical availability is more interesting and is of 97%. But it will take time for me to give you a link!

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> But it will take time for me to give you a link!



29 posts and X number of days since registration. So it will take time.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> so you mean the above post links are in correct.. i mean the tables?
> 
> Edit: I did google and went to the link and copy pasted the text to the french question on 14th Legislature


No just I wrote my post during the time you answered me!

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## PARIKRAMA

Vauban said:


> Here are recent datas.
> 
> View attachment 293795
> 
> 
> If i'm not wrong,it's just the current funds that cannot permit a higher disponibility rate....
> For the helicopter fleet,it's even worse.



Thank you my good Sir... thats pretty good data.. and authentic one which we cannot dispute..



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> For the availability rate we have two rate, one is technical and the other is operational. From an operational point of view if a rafale reach 250 hours, it is not operationally available so it decrease the operational availability, also for Rafale M the 10 Rafale which are at standard 1 and in the process to be modified are not available. So this operational availability doesn't reflect the true Rafale availability but the way the French use it. The technical availability is more interesting and is of 97%. But it will take time for me to give you a link!



Excellent... No probs there is a limit for fresh new signups i think for 29 odd posts..

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## randomradio

It's actually a minimum of 35 posts for a new joinee. I had already posted 6. So I gave my count.

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## Vergennes

PARIKRAMA said:


> Thank you my good Sir... thats pretty good data.. and authentic one which we cannot dispute..
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent... No probs there is a limit for fresh new signups i think for 29 odd posts..



If you want to know,in our current overseas operations,the available rate of the deployed Mirage2000s is about 90% and Rafale,nearly 97%.

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## PARIKRAMA

Vauban said:


> Here are recent datas.
> 
> View attachment 293795
> 
> 
> If i'm not wrong,it's just the current funds that cannot permit a higher disponibility rate....
> For the helicopter fleet,it's even worse.



So based on this if i use the same above logic as given by @Picdelamirand-oil then
Total MRO cost: 226.40 millions
Aircraft : 93 
Annual cost per aircraft : 2,434 millions
Cost per flight hour (250 hours): 9737 USD

earlier its USD 9484 CPFH 2012 data

So compared to janes which had







This implies 40.98% saving on USD 16500 data

This is substantially good news and a good data point

@Abingdonboy @Taygibay @MilSpec

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## randomradio

@Oscar @WebMaster

Dunno who to say this to, but @Picdelamirand-oil deserves the professional status. He's not part of the military but he's been sitting on French nukes and shooting lasers for years. Knows as much as NATO generals and more.

@halloweene can confirm.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> It's actually a minimum of 35 posts for a new joinee. I had already posted 6. So I gave my count.


thats seems to be new nowadays.. was not there when i joined.. may be i dont remember that part as its over 2 years back..


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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> So based on this if i use the same above logic as given by @Picdelamirand-oil then
> Total MRO cost: 226.40 millions
> Aircraft : 93
> Annual cost per aircraft : 2,434 millions
> Cost per flight hour (250 hours): 9737 USD
> 
> earlier its USD 9484 CPFH 2012 data
> 
> So compared to janes which had
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This implies 40.98% saving on USD 16500 data
> 
> This is substantially good news and a good data point
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @MilSpec


Wow, <$10,000 is mind-blowing to me. Maybe the true figure is a bit higher if they do closer to 220-230 hours?


Compare it to the Su-30 



Vauban said:


> If you want to know,in our current overseas operations,the available rate of the deployed Mirage2000s is about 90% and Rafale,nearly 97%.


97%

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> Compare it to the Su-30



The French prices cannot be compared to Indian prices. It depends on what the contract will cover once the Rafales start production in India. Volumes matter too. If the Indian production program covers Middle East orders, then it is possible the final costs would be significantly lower.



> 97%



Our Rafale fleet would be as big or bigger than ADLA. And IAF would expect all Rafales to remain operational at any given time, so the availability figure would be lower than in France. But more than 90% is possible if spares are sourced from Indian companies.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> Our Rafale fleet would be as big or bigger than ADLA. And IAF would expect all Rafales to remain operational at any given time, so the availability figure would be lower than in France. But more than 90% is possible if spares are sourced from Indian companies.



Welcome to the club Rafale.. You are another member to think magic number 200+ is possible.. Members are presently very very limited.. Owing to extreme measures of "high cost" named virus infecting the whole Indian press... and others believing MKI is the solution to everything..

@Abingdonboy @Vauban We got a new club member

@Taygibay : Our strength is increasing day by day 


@randomradio @Picdelamirand-oil : Pls do go to member introduction thread and post .. Webby and mods keep looking there..
New Introductions | Page 30

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> The French prices cannot be compared to Indian prices. It depends on what the contract will cover once the Rafales start production in India. Volumes matter too. If the Indian production program covers Middle East orders, then it is possible the final costs would be significantly lower.


Of course the figures for India will differ as there are so many variables that go into this aggregated flght hour cost figure. If India wants to get anythig close to this figure it will need a (very) large fleet and localised spares production so as to take advantadge of economies of scale and the lower costs of production in India. 

This is why I have been saying all along- a fleet of 36-54 makes absolutely no sense doing so would actually a form of self harm. 



randomradio said:


> Our Rafale fleet would be as big or bigger than ADLA. And IAF would expect all Rafales to remain operational at any given time, so the availability figure would be lower than in France. But more than 90% is possible if spares are sourced from Indian companies.



I have no doubt that such availability will not be possible for an export customer but it is still spectacuarly impressive that any operator anywhere in the world is able to get such rates with a twin engined complex fighter. Furthermore, it adds some credance to the IAF's demand that their Rafale fleet acheive 90% availability- where I thought the IAF was asking a bit much but clearly not.

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> Welcome to the club Rafale.. You are another member to think magic number 200+ is possible.. Members are presently very very limited.. Owing to extreme measures of "high cost" named virus infecting the whole Indian press... and others believing MKI is the solution to everything..



It's not just the 200 Rafales, but a new MRCA program is planned for at least 126 jets.

IAF needs to replace a total of 500-550 jets by 2027. Most of those will be covered by extra MKIs, 126 LCAs, minimum 180 Rafales and 126 new MRCA.

I think Super Hornet or Gripen-E/F will win. The main idea behind the second MRCA is cheap costs. Gripen is cheap owing to its design while Boeing may move their SH line in India to compete with Gripen. The SH bid was cheaper than Gripen by 20M during MMRCA. F-16 has no chance, Mig-35 also.

Another option is the LSA program, or Light Stealth Aircraft which will be an indigenous aircraft made in India.

Indian Navy needs 150 jets by 2027. So this will be a separate order. US Navy is pushing the F-35C for the navy as part of the carrier program. And Dassault is also competing.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Welcome to the club Rafale.


I know you say this in jest but let's not paint ourselves as irrational "fanboys". It is not some irrational emotional attatchment to the Rafale that has got us in this "club" but cold hard logic and reasoning and considering the IAF's long term interest. In fact, anyone who follows this approach seems to get to the same conclusions:

European Powers Face Off for Gulf Fighters, Trainers

UAE in final stages of talks to buy Rafale jets| Reuters

India picks French jet over Eurofighter in $10bn deal - BBC News

The Eurofighter has lost all its games against the Rafale



Those who keep harping the Gripen, MiG-35 or F-18 can be categorised as 


PARIKRAMA said:


> Owing to extreme measures of "high cost" named virus infecting the whole Indian press... and others believing MKI is the solution to everything..


Call it what it is bro, it isn't "extreme"- it is intentionally misleading.



randomradio said:


> I think Super Hornet or Gripen-E/F will win. The main idea behind the second MRCA is cheap costs. Gripen is cheap owing to its design while Boeing may move their SH line in India to compete with Gripen. The SH bid was cheaper than Gripen by 20M during MMRCA. F-16 has no chance, Mig-35 also.


No way is the IAF inducting yet another MMRCA to operate alongside the Rafale, this is simply unthinkable. Once the Rafale production line is set up in India follow on orders will be placed- just like with the MKI (it has now exceeded its orginal capacity by >100% AFAIK).

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> No way is the IAF inducting yet another MMRCA to operate alongside the Rafale, this is simply unthinkable. Once the Rafale production line is set up in India follow on orders will be placed- just like with the MKI (it has now exceeded its orginal capacity by >100% AFAIK).



I don't like it either, but this is what's planned.

We need to replace 250 Mig-21s, 80 Mi-27s and 8 squadrons of missing capacity by 2027. That's 475 jets minimum. Then there's talk of dumping 60 Jaguars earlier than anticipated. That's not possible with just Rafale and Tejas. IAF wants something that is not as capable as Rafale, but is cheap enough for mass production in India.

Even with 20 Rafales, 16 Mk1A and 20 Gripen a year, we won't reach the magic figure of 475 by 2027. This is not counting attrition. So you can imagine how big the requirement is.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> It's not just the 200 Rafales, but a new MRCA program is planned for at least 126 jets.
> 
> IAF needs to replace a total of 500-550 jets by 2027. Most of those will be covered by extra MKIs, 126 LCAs, minimum 180 Rafales and 126 new MRCA.
> 
> I think Super Hornet or Gripen-E/F will win. The main idea behind the second MRCA is cheap costs. Gripen is cheap owing to its design while Boeing may move their SH line in India to compete with Gripen. The SH bid was cheaper than Gripen by 20M during MMRCA. F-16 has no chance, Mig-35 also.
> 
> Another option is the LSA program, or Light Stealth Aircraft which will be an indigenous aircraft made in India.
> 
> Indian Navy needs 150 jets by 2027. So this will be a separate order. US Navy is pushing the F-35C for the navy as part of the carrier program. And Dassault is also competing.



I dont see Gripen making a very comprehensive comeback... Especially if consider a tier in between LCA and Rafales
In all practical purpose, it would be a logistical nightmare if we add another type especially when we are clear that in next 10 years surely FGFA comes in and in max 20 AMCA also comes...

Unless and untill we cap our LCA program, giving Gripen a chance would be suicidal.. Any other Indian program like Light Stealth Aircraft is still feasible owing to it being Indian and perhaps would be similarly priced as like LCA project..

We have discussed this topic about Saab with @Abingdonboy and @Taygibay .. Saab being a lead integrator and majority depending upon different economies particularly USA/Euro does not offer us much to our own benefit.. Especially if we talk about MII and our local MIC benefit in terms of a localised Supply chain.. If not rafale, its much better to have EF localised chain here as unit cost of EF may be high but UK and Germany likes the idea of shifting the chain here..

After all like Dassault the EF consortium would also benefit from lower human capital cost and in turn decreasing the export version costs of Rafale or EF.. Of Course EF is just an example..

USA SH18 is already pretty much mediocre and MMRCA evaluations backed that claim.. In fact synergistic-ally, the best choice for any production line would be the one where end users are both IAF and IN.. Such a capability is only with Dassault.. Whether its made in India line or merignac line..

F35 i said in another thread and few pages back as a dinosaur not even white elephant.. IN should resist it with everything.. Better buy now RAFALE M and later 20 years from now AMCA N..

F16s and Mig 35s i dont forsee any chance..



Abingdonboy said:


> I know you say this in jest but let's not paint ourselves as irrational "fanboys". It is not some irrational emotional attatchment to the Rafale that has got us in this "club" but cold hard logic and reasoning and considering the IAF's long term interest. In fact, anyone who follows this approach seems to get to the same conclusions:
> 
> European Powers Face Off for Gulf Fighters, Trainers
> 
> UAE in final stages of talks to buy Rafale jets| Reuters
> 
> India picks French jet over Eurofighter in $10bn deal - BBC News
> 
> The Eurofighter has lost all its games against the Rafale
> 
> 
> 
> Those who keep harping the Gripen, MiG-35 or F-18 can be categorised as
> 
> Call it what it is bro, it isn't "extreme"- it is intentionally misleading.
> 
> 
> No way is the IAF inducting yet another MMRCA to operate alongside the Rafale, this is simply unthinkable. Once the Rafale production line is set up in India follow on orders will be placed- just like with the MKI (it has now exceeded its orginal capacity by >100% AFAIK).



I know what you are saying my friend.. it just that i made a comment more with mocking sense.. You know how i had been with you defending this Rafale acquisition and trying to make people see rationally why this acquisition and MII part is so strategic in nature..



randomradio said:


> I don't like it either, but this is what's planned.
> 
> We need to replace 250 Mig-21s, 80 Mi-27s and 8 squadrons of missing capacity by 2027. That's 475 jets minimum. Then there's talk of dumping 60 Jaguars earlier than anticipated. That's not possible with just Rafale and Tejas. IAF wants something that is not as capable as Rafale, but is cheap enough for mass production in India.
> 
> Even with 20 Rafales, 16 Mk1A and 20 Gripen a year, we won't reach the magic figure of 475 by 2027. This is not counting attrition. So you can imagine how big the requirement is.



I will harp here an old point i made..
according to parliamentary committee report our pilot to fighter availability rate is 0.81... For 475 jets, if i consider all to be single seater and keep the 40 MKI additional separate, we need 475 additional pilots..

Now our task originally was that sanctioned ratio was 1.25... we are in 0.81..

Addressing 475 additional pilots for 1:1 implementation and 1.25 ratio our need is almost 600 (594 to be precise).. Without AirHQ/IAF not addressing new boots/fresh recruits undergoing training how we will meet the requirement...


Even if i assume we are retiring say 200 jets we will get 162 pilots.. 300 make it 243 pilots.. The shortage is still very very wide..

Assuming 100 Migs retired and 81 free pilots reassigned for 40 additional MKIs.. this shortage problem will keep us grounded as we dont have man for the machines..

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> I don't like it either, but this is what's planned.
> 
> We need to replace 250 Mig-21s, 80 Mi-27s and 8 squadrons of missing capacity by 2027. That's 475 jets minimum. Then there's talk of dumping 60 Jaguars earlier than anticipated. That's not possible with just Rafale and Tejas. IAF wants something that is not as capable as Rafale, but is cheap enough for mass production in India.
> 
> Even with 20 Rafales, 16 Mk1A and 20 Gripen a year, we won't reach the magic figure of 475 by 2027. This is not counting attrition. So you can imagine how big the requirement is.


You make a very solid point about the rate of production/induction being insufficent for the level of phasing out the IAF will be doing and simply has to do in the next decade. However, I do not beleive the solution is to adopt the long term logistical nightmare that is a second MMRCA type procurement. There are no easy solutions as the Indian LCA and Rafale production lines' capcacities will be limited until around 2022. The best solution would be another LCA production line with the private sector ASAP doubling HAL's 16 LCA/year rate. 

And you rightly point out the urgency required but, looking at how protracted this Rafale buy has been, do you really think a second MMRCA induction would be signed for in any timely manner? I don't. That would be another long process and the first fighter from that effort could be in IAF service in 6 years- at best.



PARIKRAMA said:


> I dont see Gripen making a very comprehensive comeback... Especially if consider a tier in between LCA and Rafales


Make no mistake bro, the IAF getting the IAF would kill the LCA overnight and there goes India's future domestic aviation industry. It's just not going to happen.

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> I dont see Gripen making a very comprehensive comeback... Especially if consider a tier in between LCA and Rafales
> 
> USA SH18 is already pretty much mediocre and MMRCA evaluations backed that claim..



The purpose of the second MRCA is for a cheap aircraft. It doesn't matter if the aircraft is good or not compared to Rafale, as long as it's cheap. Modi is quite concerned about the Make in India programs for the aerospace industry.

Anyway, two MRCA programs are affordable as long as the timeframe is managed very well along with the financing of the programs. From today until 2027, IAF has a minimum of $100B in capex. And previous liabilities are decreasing.

IAF is going to get priority funding. Of course, there is a chance the second line will never happen, but then, we won't reach 42 squadrons by 2027 either.

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> You make a very solid point about the rate of production/induction being insufficent for the level of phasing out the IAF will be doing and simply has to do in the next decade. However, I do not beleive the solution is to adopt the long term logistical nightmare that is a second MMRCA type procurement. There are no easy solutions as the Indian LCA and Rafale production lines' capcacities will be limited until around 2022. The best solution would be another LCA production line with the private sector ASAP doubling HAL's 16 LCA/year rate.
> 
> And you rightly point out the urgency required but, looking at how protracted this Rafale buy has been, do you really think a second MMRCA induction would be signed for in any timely manner? I don't. That would be another long process and the first fighter from that effort could be in IAF service in 6 years- at best.
> 
> 
> Make no mistake bro, the IAF getting the IAF would kill the LCA overnight and there goes India's future domestic aviation industry. It's just not going to happen.




There is a way bro.. If we commit say a much bigger number like 288 and production like an example
in Indian MII line 14-16 birds a year for entire 208 jets 13 squadrons in 13 years
and from Merignac line 14-16 birds a year.. for 5 years 80 jets 5 squadrons

2 squadrons a year for 5 years straight..

You get 288 jets there

But for practical purpose we need then to convince our whole country who will up in arms primarily due to cost and secondly, getting 288 jets means a clear cut strategy need which needs deep economical support too..

A better way is to tell Mukesh Ambani .. call up Marcel Dassault buy a stake. heck buy whole Dassault only and then lets do this number again.. 

But yes we cant reach 475 that way


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> You make a very solid point about the rate of production/induction being insufficent for the level of phasing out the IAF will be doing and simply has to do in the next decade. However, I do not beleive the solution is to adopt the long term logistical nightmare that is a second MMRCA type procurement. There are no easy solutions as the Indian LCA and Rafale production lines' capcacities will be limited until around 2022. The best solution would be another LCA production line with the private sector ASAP doubling HAL's 16 LCA/year rate.



It is not yet known if IAF has shown interest in the LCA Mk2. A second production line within the private sector is not possible today, it is too big a hurdle to cross for them. A second line can be done for Mk2 though, but like I said, it depends on the IAF. Also, the Mk2 timeframe is too optimistic.

Otoh, the creator of the LSA says he can make available 54 jets a year.



> And you rightly point out the urgency required but, looking at how protracted this Rafale buy has been, do you really think a second MMRCA induction would be signed for in any timely manner? I don't. That would be another long process and the first fighter from that effort could be in IAF service in 6 years- at best.



No, the companies in question, like Dassault, will have executive powers over the production. It won't be under HAL. So such contracts can be signed in 2 years or less. Especially if Modi stays in power for the next 3 years.

MMRCA was primarily delayed because of HAL. The new Rafale deal is almost done in just 1 year, including modified configuration like uprated engine. The Make in India component will start after IN makes a commitment for Rafale-M.



> Make no mistake bro, the IAF getting the IAF would kill the LCA overnight and there goes India's future domestic aviation industry. It's just not going to happen.



At least 200 LCAs are required even with Rafale and second MRCA.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> The purpose of the second MRCA is for a cheap aircraft. It doesn't matter if the aircraft is good or not compared to Rafale, as long as it's cheap. Modi is quite concerned about the Make in India programs for the aerospace industry.
> 
> Anyway, two MRCA programs are affordable as long as the timeframe is managed very well along with the financing of the programs. From today until 2027, IAF has a minimum of $100B in capex. And previous liabilities are decreasing.
> 
> IAF is going to get priority funding. Of course, there is a chance the second line will never happen, but then, we won't reach 42 squadrons by 2027 either.




TBH since we have lost last 15 years, we will ideally see a crippled IAF for some time with almost obsolete junk jets with us as part of our squadron strength.. Yes you are correct capex is there.. But then again can Saab be trusted? After all its a integrator with limited technology of its own.. 

Besides 42 sqd number is practically not possible for 2027 unless we do dynamic things..

For example only USA MIC can give us 30 jets a year but then depending on US jets is as good as committing suicide now..especially if its frontline USA jets..

Thus a cheaper Indian aircraft if its possible like you said Light Stealth Aircraft should be encouraged.. Israeli folks just said based on lavi they want us to model AMCA.. may be used Israel only for the Stealth Aircraft and create a product where unit cost is under USD40-45 Mn.. a bit higher than LCA USD 30.. It solves our purpose much better,,


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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> But for practical purpose we need then to convince our whole country who will up in arms primarily due to cost



The Rafales are not expensive. The MMRCA deal came at less than $120M for each Rafale. This new deal will bring the total cost to less than $100M. The LCC cost of the Rafale was $300M.

The total production cost of 126 Rafales in MMRCA was $15B, not including the HAL's cost increase. If we assume Dassault will sell us the Indian Rafales at the new rate, then 120 Rafales over the next 10 years will cost only $12B. Misc expenses will be extra, like bases.

According to Picdel, the unit cost of a Rafale in the new deal is Euro 70M.

The issue is people are stupid. They think we have to pay the 40 year cost of $300M immediately. F-35 is facing the same stupid belief that the govt has to pay more than $1T right away, even though the cost of the existing fleet over 40 years is far more expensive, two or three times more.



PARIKRAMA said:


> But then again can Saab be trusted? After all its a integrator with limited technology of its own..



It depends on how much ToT GE will be able to provide.



> For example only USA MIC can give us 30 jets a year but then depending on US jets is as good as committing suicide now..especially if its frontline USA jets..



France can too. If we order from France as well as the Indian line, we can easily order 30+ Rafales a year. If the Indian line is built the same as the French line, then we should be able to produce 36 Rafales a year in India.



> Thus a cheaper Indian aircraft if its possible like you said Light Stealth Aircraft should be encouraged.. Israeli folks just said based on lavi they want us to model AMCA.. may be used Israel only for the Stealth Aircraft and create a product where unit cost is under USD40-45 Mn.. a bit higher than LCA USD 30.. It solves our purpose much better,,



AMCA will cost $200M.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> The Rafales are not expensive. The MMRCA deal came at less than $120M for each Rafale. This new deal will bring the total cost to less than $100M. The LCC cost of the Rafale was $300M.
> 
> The total production cost of 126 Rafales in MMRCA was $15B, not including the HAL's cost increase. If we assume Dassault will sell us the Indian Rafales at the new rate, then 120 Rafales over the next 10 years will cost only $12B. Misc expenses will be extra, like bases.
> 
> According to Picdel, the unit cost of a Rafale in the new deal is Euro 70M.
> 
> The issue is people are stupid. They think we have to pay the 40 year cost of $300M immediately. F-35 is facing the same stupid belief that the govt has to pay more than $1T right away, even though the cost of the existing fleet over 40 years is far more expensive, two or three times more.



Thats in line with what my source said about Euro 100 Mn loaded with weapons.. and India is looking making the whole jet with a median cost of Rs 540 crs to 560 crs for a large 200 jet order..based on economies of scale and localisation plus benefit of cheap human capital cost

The issue is even more biasedness and unsubstantiated view of not understanding the package points
Example
Package part 1 jets+ weapons euro 3.6Bn
Package part 2 customization
Package part 3 all support+ training+ infra+ others

If we add all it up and say get a deal for Euro 7.3 bn ( presently euro 8Bn and negotiating for Euro 700 odd mn more lowering) then people blindly divide it by 36 and quote Euro 203 mn or USD 220 mn..
Now that's the level of our defence analysts and reporters.. Then what can we do..
The jets and weapons are still just Euro 100 mn but then it get hidden among the whole hocus pocus of USD 220 mn or even bigger figure..

Nobody says like some post back CPFH is USD 10k and for MKI may be double.. No body says about engine issues.. Not about availability.. Not about rbe 2 spectra and what not.. The list is long.. All they say is Rafale is white elephant..

And we always said look at the heading to understand what's the cost in reality..

The acquisition of rafales over a good time will be beneficial no doubt.. And cost will not be the issue when we see its utility and lower operational cost n convenience


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## randomradio

Courtesy Picdel

It's Euro 2.5B for 36 Rafales.
Euro 1B for 10 years spares.
Euro 1.4B for 1 base.
Euro 1B for weapons.

Total = Euro 5.9B for MMRCA configured Rafale.

Customization costs up to Euro 2B. So total is Euro 7.9B. Total 9.3B for two bases. And so on.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> $200M.



Yes that's what SJha said.... I am saying about Israeli tie up for light stealth aircraft not for AMCA..

AMCA I want tech Tie up with france only as I believe if we can add Rafale tech plus FGFA tech that combination of pick and choose the best of what available and throw in some Israeli stuff in between can very well give a potent combination..


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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> I am saying about Israeli tie up for light stealth aircraft not for AMCA..



The creator of LSA has promoted his design to the Israelis and they are interested. We are yet to get word of its future.



> AMCA I want tech Tie up with france only as I believe if we can add Rafale tech plus FGFA tech that combination of pick and choose the best of what available and throw in some Israeli stuff in between can very well give a potent combination..



AMCA will be indigenous as much as possible. We are already taking a risk with the imported engine. Israeli inputs will be minimum since we have already benefited a lot through the LCA program with them. We may need consultancy assistance though, I'm sure France or the new MRCA company may offer it. The Israelis don't have the expertise.

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## randomradio

TejpalD said:


> Is IDF down for permanent now? I'm gonna miss vstol uncle.



No idea. Maybe @SpArK can help? Anyway, welcome to the forum.


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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> Courtesy Picdel
> 
> It's Euro 2.5B for 36 Rafales.
> Euro 1B for 10 years spares.
> Euro 1.4B for 1 base.
> Euro 1B for weapons.
> 
> Total = Euro 5.9B for MMRCA configured Rafale.
> 
> Customization costs up to Euro 2B. So total is Euro 7.9B. Total 9.3B for two bases. And so on.


Nice good to hear that number so jets + weapons is euro 3.5 bn and my source said euro 3.6
Ya the spare 1bn is based on 5% consumption n Of flyaway price which India is disputing.. 
The Initial years won't see such high % of spare usage and this advocates a 500mn type price for 10 years or using 1bn for 15 years..

The base Infrastructure price is being looked to be brought down ..

The customization we reduced harpoon request and used exocet now.. That confirmation came in air and cosmos magazine which I posted the clip here..

We re trying to now narrow it down from below 60k crs to closer to 56k crores.. That's the target and seems achievable..

Oh but the new engine will take 28-30 months so our jets can come in between 3 to 5.5 years


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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> There is a way bro.. If we commit say a much bigger number like 288 and production like an example
> in Indian MII line 14-16 birds a year for entire 208 jets 13 squadrons in 13 years
> and from Merignac line 14-16 birds a year.. for 5 years 80 jets 5 squadrons





randomradio said:


> It is not yet known if IAF has shown interest in the LCA Mk2





randomradio said:


> No, the companies in question, like Dassault, will have executive powers over the production. It won't be under HAL. So such contracts can be signed in 2 years or less. Especially if Modi stays in power for the next 3 years.


2 years for a deal as complex as 126 jets to be made in India? No way sir. These things are very very complex and will have so many issues to be addressed that it would take 3 years minumum. However this is without factoring in the selection process. I'm assuming in this "second MMRCA" that multiple candidates would be considered and thus there would have to be an entirely new set of technical evaluations done by the IAF both in India and abroad. And then the cost negotiations will begin with the MoD and then the contract will be signed and then the delivery period will take over- it's going to be a very lenghty process:

Selection process (2 years- using MMRCA as a base)
Contract negotiations- 2-3 years
Delivery period- 3 years

That's 7-8 years for the FIRST bird to enter Indian service, so if this process was started tommorw it would not be before 2023 the IAF got its first "second MMRCA" but we all know that the MoD/IAF won't kick off any "second MMRCA" for at least a year (when the Dassualt/Rafale MII part is all signed up) so we are looking at 2025-6 as the earliest the FIRST "second MMRCA" can be in service and this is with the most optimistic timelines. It just doesn't seem logical on any front-cost, speed of induction, sense, long term ownership, ease etc etc


randomradio said:


> MMRCA was primarily delayed because of HAL. The new Rafale deal is almost done in just 1 year, including modified configuration like uprated engine. The Make in India component will start after IN makes a commitment for Rafale-M.



I don't think it's fair to blame HAL entiely, there was also quite a lot of time lost because of divergent views on offset obligations, workshare etc etc 



PARIKRAMA said:


> Besides 42 sqd number is practically not possible for 2027 unless we do dynamic things..


And even that figure is deemed too low. According to the Standing Parliamentry commitee on defence the figure should be 45 SQNs by 2025 to meet a combined Pak/China threat. Fat chance of getting anywhere close to that unless something really innovative is thought up.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Thus a cheaper Indian aircraft if its possible like you said Light Stealth Aircraft should be encouraged.. Israeli folks just said based on lavi they want us to model AMCA.. may be used Israel only for the Stealth Aircraft and create a product where unit cost is under USD40-45 Mn.. a bit higher than LCA USD 30.. It solves our purpose much better,,


No new projects will be in service quick enough to address the SQN depletion bro.



randomradio said:


> The Rafales are not expensive. The MMRCA deal came at less than $120M for each Rafale. This new deal will bring the total cost to less than $100M. The LCC cost of the Rafale was $300M.
> 
> The total production cost of 126 Rafales in MMRCA was $15B, not including the HAL's cost increase. If we assume Dassault will sell us the Indian Rafales at the new rate, then 120 Rafales over the next 10 years will cost only $12B. Misc expenses will be extra, like bases.
> 
> According to Picdel, the unit cost of a Rafale in the new deal is Euro 70M.
> 
> The issue is people are stupid. They think we have to pay the 40 year cost of $300M immediately. F-35 is facing the same stupid belief that the govt has to pay more than $1T right away, even though the cost of the existing fleet over 40 years is far more expensive, two or three times more.



Superbly stated which shows that there is little need for a second MMRCA- at least not on cost grounds. The only reason to go for a second MMRCA is for speed of induction and I'm sure Dassualt (and its Indian partner) would come up with some plan to capture that mulit-billion USD business and not lose it to a competitor.

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## randomradio

TejpalD said:


> Hopefully he finds his way here. No way of finding his email?
> 
> The Frenchies  are lost in time too, BMD, AverageAmerican and all the other fellow Kulcha Warriors...*sheds a tear*



I don't have their mails. Maybe @SpArK has good news.



Abingdonboy said:


> Selection process (2 years- using MMRCA as a base)
> Contract negotiations- 2-3 years
> Delivery period- 3 years



The selection process is already complete. It will be based on MMRCA. The companies will be asked to submit bids based on MMRCA configuration. And it will be GTG, so companies can play dirty.

The contract negotiations can be done in 2 years flat. Like Rafale.

The delivery period will of course take time. That's why I said a clever process will take care of most of the problems between Rafale and the new MRCA. but both Rafale and MRCA are expected to deliver only after 2020, probably a year or two earlier for the Rafale.

And IAF isn't the only customer. You are forgetting the 54 Rafales the IN wants. So that will have to be taken into consideration. There is also the possibility of more Mig-29Ks.



> Superbly stated which shows that there is little need for a second MMRCA- at least not on cost grounds. The only reason to go for a second MMRCA is for speed of induction and I'm sure Dassualt (and its Indian partner) would come up with some plan to capture that mulit-billion USD business and not lose it to a competitor.



Dassault will aim for that. Ultimately, it depends on costs.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> The selection process is already complete. It will be based on MMRCA. The companies will be asked to submit bids based on MMRCA configuration. And it will be GTG, so companies can play dirty.


This doesn't make much sense to me as only 2 contenders were found to meet the IAF's selection criteria- the EF and Rafale. So unless the IAF has changed its mind on its 600+ point selection criteria how can the MMRCA configuration be offered? If anything the most compelling argument could be made for the "Silent" Hornet, the Super Hornet simply failed to impress the IAF. 



randomradio said:


> The delivery period will of course take time. That's why I said a clever process will take care of most of the problems between Rafale and the new MRCA. but both Rafale and MRCA are expected to deliver only after 2020, probably a year or two earlier for the Rafale.


The Rafales being ordered off the shelf from France will be in service from 2019 (perhaps earlier if the GoI makes a purchase ASAP and takes advantadge of the ramped up production).

The time line for localised production of Rafales in India remains a big question mark for me.


randomradio said:


> And IAF isn't the only customer. You are forgetting the 54 Rafales the IN wants. So that will have to be taken into consideration. There is also the possibility of more Mig-29Ks.



The IN's long term plan is for far more than 54 jets as they will have the IAC-2 to cater for and likely a sister ship of the IAC-1 class and almost certainly more of the IAC-2 class from 2035 onwards. And thus is makes sense to settle upon a single platform. The MiG-29K cannot be considered as it is not able to operate using a catapult that will be found on the IAC-2 class, that leaves the Rafale-M, F-18SH and F-35C (discounting the Sea Gripen outright), of these only the Rafale-M has promised to be able to operate from STOBAR carriers also and remember the IN may still have 1 STOBAR carrier to provide an air wing to (IAC-1's sister ship). So, the market for the Rafale (IAF+IN+SFC) is huge, Dassualt just need to get their marketing and pricing in check.

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> This doesn't make much sense to me as only 2 contenders were found to meet the IAF's selection criteria- the EF and Rafale. So unless the IAF has changed its mind on its 600+ point selection criteria how can the MMRCA configuration be offered? If anything the most compelling argument could be made for the "Silent" Hornet, the Super Hornet simply failed to impress the IAF.



Neither Gripen nor SH met the MMRCA criteria. So based on whatever base technologies they offer, the cheaper guy wins I suppose.

I would say Gripen is more advanced in terms of technologies offered. So it has a good chance.



> The Rafales being ordered off the shelf from France will be in service from 2019 (perhaps earlier if the GoI makes a purchase ASAP and takes advantadge of the ramped up production).



The French have too many commitments.



> The time line for localised production of Rafales in India remains a big question mark for me.



Let's wait for the official announcement for timeline.



> The IN's long term plan is for far more than 54 jets as they will have the IAC-2 to cater for and likely a sister ship of the IAC-1 class and almost certainly more of the IAC-2 class from 2035 onwards. And thus is makes sense to settle upon a single platform. The MiG-29K cannot be considered as it is not able to operate using a catapult that will be found on the IAC-2 class, that leaves the Rafale-M, F-18SH and F-35C (discounting the Sea Gripen outright), of these only the Rafale-M has promised to be able to operate from STOBAR carriers also and remember the IN may still have 1 STOBAR carrier to provide an air wing to (IAC-1's sister ship). So, the market for the Rafale (IAF+IN+SFC) is huge, Dassualt just need to get their marketing and pricing in check.



IN's only real options are Rafale and F-35. The Ks may only be stop gap, like one or two squadrons at the most. They need more aircraft for IAC-1.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

89


Abingdonboy said:


> I have no doubt that such availability will not be possible for an export customer but it is still spectacuarly impressive that any operator anywhere in the world is able to get such rates with a twin engined complex fighter. Furthermore, it adds some credance to the IAF's demand that their Rafale fleet acheive 90% availability- where I thought the IAF was asking a bit much but clearly not.


There is no overhaul on rafale but maintenance "on condition" the engine is modular with 21 or22 modules (I don't remember) and diagnostic is embeded in weapon system, so when the Rafale land the maintenance people know if it need to replace a module and there is no need of bench test after the replacement. The two engine can be replaced in one hour. And the same principle apply for the whole plane. Iwill give later a NATO document explaining all this.



randomradio said:


> It's not just the 200 Rafales, but a new MRCA program is planned for at least 126 jets.
> 
> IAF needs to replace a total of 500-550 jets by 2027. Most of those will be covered by extra MKIs, 126 LCAs, minimum 180 Rafales and 126 new MRCA.
> 
> I think Super Hornet or Gripen-E/F will win. The main idea behind the second MRCA is cheap costs. Gripen is cheap owing to its design while Boeing may move their SH line in India to compete with Gripen. The SH bid was cheaper than Gripen by 20M during MMRCA. F-16 has no chance, Mig-35 also.
> 
> Another option is the LSA program, or Light Stealth Aircraft which will be an indigenous aircraft made in India.
> 
> Indian Navy needs 150 jets by 2027. So this will be a separate order. US Navy is pushing the F-35C for the navy as part of the carrier program. And Dassault is also competing.


After the first investisment on ground for Rafale it would be cheaper to buy more Rafale than to buy F-18, I see no advantage in F-18 the Rafale LCC is lower, the Rafale performance is better.

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## Armani

randomradio said:


> I don't have their mails. Maybe @SpArK has good news.



Hey. Contact me.

revantthea5 at yahoo.kom


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## Blue Marlin

Armani said:


> Hey. Contact me.
> 
> revantthea5 at yahoo.kom


delete your post unless you want to be spammed like hell. contact the user via their porfile page

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> After the first investisment on ground for Rafale it would be cheaper to buy more Rafale than to buy F-18, I see no advantage in F-18 the Rafale LCC is lower, the Rafale performance is better.



I don't disagree. But there is information about the second MRCA program. And it is possible IAF is looking for cheaper start up costs rather than LCC costs. So Rafale may be cheaper in the long term, but SH/Gripen may be cheaper to build.

In 15 years, maintenance bill of 300+ Rafales and SH/Gripen will be peanuts compared to the size of the military budget. Especially when we will be inducting 200M+ aircraft at the time. So I'm not worried about the long term effects of the MMRCA bill.

I also have this theory where this second MRCA program may be meant to guarantee high level ToT for the F414 engine under the AMCA program. So choosing SH and Gripen may be a ticket to engine tech. If that's the case, then MoD will be ready to shell out cash to guarantee the AMCA's future. This in turn takes care of the falling squadrons. So both IAF and industry are happy.



Armani said:


> Expendable addresses. No one is stupid here.
> 
> @randomradio Hey you gonna contact me? It's the other red-clad guy from I D F



I did.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio said:


> I don't like it either, but this is what's planned.
> 
> We need to replace 250 Mig-21s, 80 Mi-27s and 8 squadrons of missing capacity by 2027. That's 475 jets minimum. Then there's talk of dumping 60 Jaguars earlier than anticipated. That's not possible with just Rafale and Tejas. IAF wants something that is not as capable as Rafale, but is cheap enough for mass production in India.
> 
> Even with 20 Rafales, 16 Mk1A and 20 Gripen a year, we won't reach the magic figure of 475 by 2027. This is not counting attrition. So you can imagine how big the requirement is.



But the flexibility of Rafale imply that you need less plane compare to old one: In france we have replaced 593 old plane with only 130 Rafale without decrease of capabilities.

The advantage is in the flexibility and cost savings that result.

If we take the example of an OPEX mission, it is no longer necessary to deploy fighter (+ spare), bombers (+ spare), reco aircraft (+ spare), SEAD / DEAD aircrafts (+ spare), CAS aircrafts (+ spare), or specialists (pilots and engineers) assigned to each type of device. You content to deploy a single type of aircraft and relevant specialists in lesser amounts (savings on the number of spares, the fact that specialized equipment is not used permanently or used in other roles, rationalization of staff), and logistics is thereby greatly simplified.

Basically, you send 20 Rafale, 30 pilots and 160 mechanics instead of 15 Mirage 2000C, 15 Mirage 2000D , 15 F1CR, 60 pilots and 700 maintenance people needed to fly everything.

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> But the flexibility of Rafale imply that you need less plane compare to old one: In france we have replaced 593 old plane with only 130 Rafale without decrease of capabilities.
> 
> The advantage is in the flexibility and cost savings that result.
> 
> If we take the example of an OPEX mission, it is no longer necessary to deploy fighter (+ spare), bombers (+ spare), reco aircraft (+ spare), SEAD / DEAD aircrafts (+ spare), CAS aircrafts (+ spare), or specialists (pilots and engineers) assigned to each type of device. You content to deploy a single type of aircraft and relevant specialists in lesser amounts (savings on the number of spares, the fact that specialized equipment is not used permanently or used in other roles, rationalization of staff), and logistics is thereby greatly simplified.
> 
> Basically, you send 20 Rafale, 30 pilots and 160 mechanics instead of 15 Mirage 2000C, 15 Mirage 2000D , 15 F1CR, 60 pilots and 700 maintenance people needed to fly everything.



We had discussed this before. IAF wants numbers as well as the flexibility of the Rafale. If we want to replace 330 Mig-21s and Mig-27s, we will do it with 330 Rafales, if we have the money for this. It's just the way it works.

The only reason why we have only 50 Mirage-2000 and not 200 is because we didn't have the money for it at the time. So the only constraint is money, regardless of how capable the aircraft itself is. It is part of the arms race policy with Pakistan, not to mention maintaining tech superiority over the Chinese.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> I will harp here an old point i made..
> according to parliamentary committee report our pilot to fighter availability rate is 0.81... For 475 jets, if i consider all to be single seater and keep the 40 MKI additional separate, we need 475 additional pilots..
> 
> Now our task originally was that sanctioned ratio was 1.25... we are in 0.81..


From my point of view the problem is the availability of your plane: suppose that you need 200 hour to maintain the level of your pilot but due to availability your plane can fly only 160 hours, you will have only 0.8 pilot by plane! if you want 1.25 pilot by plane you need your plane to be able to fly 250 hours.
In France we have 1.4 pilot by plane and each pilot fly 180 hours, and each plane fly 250 hours. But during OPEX (Foreign Operation) our plane are able to fly 500% of the peace rate.
It seems it's not the case with your plane. For exemple a Rafale need 8 hours of maintenance by flying hour compare to 32 hours of maintenance by flying hour for a SU-30 MKI. You need 4 time more maintenance people if you want to use your SU-MKI at the same rate than Rafale. 
But in peace time we have 1 maintenance people by Rafale, so in OPEX we have 5 people by Rafale. For you it would be 4 people in peace time and 20 people in War operation. But 20 people is impossible it's too much.



PARIKRAMA said:


> There is a way bro.. If we commit say a much bigger number like 288 and production like an example
> in Indian MII line 14-16 birds a year for entire 208 jets 13 squadrons in 13 years
> and from Merignac line 14-16 birds a year.. for 5 years 80 jets 5 squadrons
> 
> 2 squadrons a year for 5 years straight..
> 
> You get 288 jets there
> 
> But for practical purpose we need then to convince our whole country who will up in arms primarily due to cost and secondly, getting 288 jets means a clear cut strategy need which needs deep economical support too..
> 
> A better way is to tell Mukesh Ambani .. call up Marcel Dassault buy a stake. heck buy whole Dassault only and then lets do this number again..
> 
> But yes we cant reach 475 that way


The assembly line is not limited to 30/Year: if you ask Dassault for a 100/year assembly line it is possible, but the problem could be on the sub-contractors, not in France because we have a strong aerospace industry able to answer to the Airbus needs, but in India.

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> From my point of view the problem is the availability of your plane: suppose that you need 200 hour to maintain the level of your pilot but due to availability your plane can fly only 160 hours, you will have only 0.8 pilot by plane! if you want 1.25 pilot by plane you need your plane to be able to fly 250 hours.
> In France we have 1.4 pilot by plane and each pilot fly 180 hours, and each plane fly 250 hours. But during OPEX (Foreign Operation) our plane are able to fly 500% of the peace rate.
> It seems it's not the case with your plane. For exemple a Rafale need 8 hours of maintenance by flying hour compare to 32 hours of maintenance by flying hour for a SU-30 MKI. You need 4 time more maintenance people if you want to use your SU-MKI at the same rate than Rafale.
> But in peace time we have 1 maintenance people by Rafale, so in OPEX we have 5 people by Rafale. For you it would be 4 people in peace time and 20 people in War operation. But 20 people is impossible it's too much.



I think most of the downtime for MKI is due to upper level maintenance. Like when the engines are removed for overhaul, then the plane can be grounded for 2 or 3 days until the engine is installed again. Rafale doesn't suffer with such a problem.

For low level maintenance, the difference should be much lesser.

In 2008, the MKIs that were in Red Flag had availability rates of over 90%. In two weeks, 8 MKIs had flown 850 hours.


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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> But the flexibility of Rafale imply that you need less plane compare to old one: In france we have replaced 593 old plane with only 130 Rafale without decrease of capabilities.


But this isn't how the IAF/GoI looks at procurements- It is still quite a binary process. And the IAF/GoI is looking to replace all existing assets on a 1:1 basis. In India, it is not the capabilties that are measured but the size and right now the IAF has a sanctioned strength of 42 fighter SQNs but is at only around 30- with 8-10 SQNs worth of MiG-21/27 to be phased out by 2022. As such, the IAF is still interested in quality, it doesn't matter if the equipment you are inducting is many times more capable than what ti replaces, until now you've had a few instances of MiG-21s SQNs inducting the MKI!

The GoI wants the IAF to get to 42 SQNs by 2027 and will likely increase the sanctioned strength thereafter to 45-50 SQNs. 



randomradio said:


> I think most of the downtime for MKI is due to upper level maintenance. Like when the engines are removed for overhaul, then the plane can be grounded for 2 or 3 days until the engine is installed again. Rafale doesn't suffer with such a problem.
> 
> For low level maintenance, the difference should be much lesser.
> 
> In 2008, the MKIs that were in Red Flag had availability rates of over 90%. In two weeks, 8 MKIs had flown 850 hours.


When you look at availability figures they are aggregates of all parts- major/minor work and upper/lower level maintenance and thus if something takes the MKI 2-3 days but the Rafale only 1-2 hours then it is going to hit the IAF and the MKI's total availability quite hard.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> Thus a cheaper Indian aircraft if its possible like you said Light Stealth Aircraft should be encouraged.. Israeli folks just said based on lavi they want us to model AMCA.. may be used Israel only for the Stealth Aircraft and create a product where unit cost is under USD40-45 Mn.. a bit higher than LCA USD 30.. It solves our purpose much better,,



If really you buy 200+ Rafale you can ask Dassault to design AMCA with you and This AMCA will replace Rafale MLU, that is to say a completly new airframe but a weapon system which is incremental from Rafale with conformal antenna for Radar, SPECTRA and communication, DIRCM and so on. The M-88 family is designed to be able to deliver a thrust between 7.5 t and 11 t. So you will develop with the SAFRAN help the 11 t version for AMCA and it will be with a varianle cycle to take advantage of your Kaveri development.



PARIKRAMA said:


> .
> 
> Oh but the new engine will take 28-30 months so our jets can come in between 3 to 5.5 years


The new Engine will be ready for the first delivery to Qatar that is to say in 2018.

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> If really you buy 200+ Rafale you can ask Dassault to design AMCA with you and This AMCA will replace Rafale MLU, that is to say a completly new airframe but a weapon system which is incremental from Rafale with conformal antenna for Radar, SPECTRA and communication, DIRCM and so on. The M-88 family is designed to be able to deliver a thrust between 7.5 t and 11 t. So you will develop with the SAFRAN help the 11 t version for AMCA and it will be with a varianle cycle to take advantage of your Kaveri development.
> 
> 
> The new Engine will be ready for the first delivery to Qatar that is to say in 2018.



I did say about AMCA offer from French side and with @Abingdonboy we did have lengthy discussion on that..
Any given day I would prefer a m88 fam engine over ge414 owing to my distrust for US MIC and geo political views.. They are pretty blood hungry MIC.. And looking at their present way of handling we should not trust them much..

If the new 85Kn or 8.5t engine is available by 2018 then its perfectly matches my earlier talk that engine development started last year in H2.. Implying its already 6-8months over so we are looking at max 2 more years.. This will make delivery possible from 2018 end, 2019-2021 max..
This is of course beneficial for us

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## Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio said:


> @Oscar @WebMaster
> 
> Dunno who to say this to, but @Picdelamirand-oil deserves the professional status. He's not part of the military but he's been sitting on French nukes and shooting lasers for years. Knows as much as NATO generals and more.
> 
> @halloweene can confirm.


@halloweene has some health problems.

I have made a small presentation:
New Introductions | Page 30

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## rockstarIN

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> But the flexibility of Rafale imply that you need less plane compare to old one: In france we have replaced 593 old plane with only 130 Rafale without decrease of capabilities.
> 
> The advantage is in the flexibility and cost savings that result.
> 
> If we take the example of an OPEX mission, it is no longer necessary to deploy fighter (+ spare), bombers (+ spare), reco aircraft (+ spare), SEAD / DEAD aircrafts (+ spare), CAS aircrafts (+ spare), or specialists (pilots and engineers) assigned to each type of device. You content to deploy a single type of aircraft and relevant specialists in lesser amounts (savings on the number of spares, the fact that specialized equipment is not used permanently or used in other roles, rationalization of staff), and logistics is thereby greatly simplified.
> 
> .



We are not facing a different scenario IMO. France can replace with one type of air craft and reduce the number of air craft but that is not the case with IAF. In a situation with PLAF Vs IAF, there will be high intencity air battles with more number of air crafts involved. If we decide the cut the number of jets with more capable Rafales, it will not work out in case of number of air crafts.

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## surya kiran

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Yes you are right. Thank you for your welcome.



Hope to see you post more often.



randomradio said:


> 29 posts and X number of days since registration. So it will take time.


Tu yahan kya kar raha hai? And what happened there. continuous server problem.

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## Masterhunter

PARIKRAMA said:


> Welcome to the club Rafale.. You are another member to think magic number 200+ is possible.. Members are presently very very limited.. Owing to extreme measures of "high cost" named virus infecting the whole Indian press... and others believing MKI is the solution to everything..
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vauban We got a new club member
> 
> @Taygibay : Our strength is increasing day by day
> 
> 
> @randomradio @Picdelamirand-oil : Pls do go to member introduction thread and post .. Webby and mods keep looking there..
> New Introductions | Page 30



Don't worry mate... U can include me too... I feel if IN will too choose and it may shoot upto 250 or more rafale in India.. 
IAF.. 36 + 108-144 + 16-20(trainer/reserves) = 160-200..
IN ... 54(Vishal) ..+/- 16-32 ( vikrant 2.. If they have money) +/- 18 (1 sqn for A&N) + 6-10(trainers/reserve) .. So 60-116 depending on funds and whether it's MII or not... 
If DA goes for MII... Then they will be guaranteed minimum 200 planes order by IAF/IN.

I just pray that IAF gives that guarntee to Tejas also so that the supplier base can be build economically and upgrades can be economical

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## PARIKRAMA

+++
Poisoning of mind in full swing+++ By our fav Bharat Karnad.... In Indian Express...
++++

Taking Off | The Indian Express

_For an indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) disparaged by the Indian Air Force brass as “overweight”, “underpowered”, “obsolete”, “a three-legged cheetah” and, in technical terms, as a plane that “cannot fly without telemetry, pull more than 6G or an angle-of-attack (AoA) greater than 20 degrees” and “with an air intake that starves the engine”, is supposedly afflicted with “53 identified shortfalls”, and fails to meet the “minimum air staff requirements (ASRs)”, the Tejas, entirely unreported by the Indian media, performed phenomenally well at the recent Bahrain International Air Show. It has silenced the naysayers. The minimum that this success ought to do is get the government to reconsider the deal with France, because the fact is Tejas’ future will be inversely affected by the Rafale deal. If one is up, the other is out._

_The LCA’s composites-built airframe and small size enhance its stealth features, translating into a small radar signature and the greatest difficulty for enemy aircraft to detect it. Bahrain proved that fighting quality. There can be no complaints._

_Price-wise, India is willing to pay only $7 billion, France expects $11 bn. To put these figures in perspective, the Rafale programme was originally pegged at $10 bn for 126 aircraft, including transfer of technology (ToT). So how come, after reducing the demand for Rafales by two-thirds and deducting 18 per cent of the cost as value of ToT, the new price tag exceeds the original cost by a billion dollars? Worse, Paris is disinclined to offer sovereign guarantee regarding the delivery timeline and spares supply but is prepared to provide a letter from President Francois Hollande, which is worth nothing. Yet, the defence ministry is reconciled to forking out Rs 63,000 crore for 36 Rafales. This works out to Rs 1,750 crore or nearly $270 million per aircraft — a sum that could fetch three Tejas or two Sukhoi-30 MKIs, rated the best combat aircraft in the world. _

_Tejas, a 4.5 generation aircraft like Rafale, has always been underfunded by government and undermined by the IAF with periodic rewriting of ASRs. Three years ago, for instance, a mid-air refuelling probe was included, necessitating aircraft redesign that cost time, money and delays in the certification and induction cycles. _

_Scarcity of money is the real problem and requires making hard choices. Should the Indian government commit Rs. 63,000 crore to the Tejas and Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) programmes rather than sustaining the French aviation industry, it will signal serious intent, bring the streamlined Defence Production Policy-2016 guidelines into play, permitting the DRDO to transfer source codes and flight control laws to Indian private-sector companies, incentivise small- and medium-scale technology innovation companies comprising an Indian mittelstand to take root, motivate foreign suppliers of components and assemblies that currently comprise 70 per cent of Tejas to manufacture these in India and, conjoined to a policy pushing its export, germinate a viable, comprehensively capable, aerospace sector-led Indian defence industrial growth. This infusion of funds will fast-track the synergistic development of follow-on versions of Tejas, its navalised variant, along with the AMCA, and the fifth generation fighter project in partnership with Russia. It will be the cutting-edge of a “Made in India” policy showcasing indigenous capability. _

_With Rafale facing production problems — only eight aircraft were outputted in 2014 — all the contracted Rafales won’t be in IAF service before 2030. It is not the answer to India’s immediate need. A more economical solution that will also satisfy the IAF’s apparent craving for French aircraft is to procure the 30-plus upgraded Mirage 2000-9s the United Arab Emirates want to be rid of, and a third Mirage squadron (with 80 per cent of its life intact) available from Qatar. Infrastructure already exists to service and operate the Mirages. It will not complicate the logistics nightmare created by the diversity of combat aircraft in the IAF’s inventory, which Rafale’s entry will do. _

++
@Abingdonboy @randomradio @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil 
See previous posts, i said our smart and supremely intelligent analysts and writers would divide whole price by 36.. 
_the defence ministry is reconciled to forking out Rs 63,000 crore for 36 Rafales. This works out to Rs 1,750 crore or nearly $270 million per aircraft _

This is despite all sources indicating less than Rs 60,000 Crs and closer to 56K crs. 

So many factual errors and still people will hail it as gospel truth...

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> 89
> I will give later a NATO document explaining all this.


You can google
*Enhanced Aircraft Platform Availability
Through Advanced Maintenance
Concepts and Technologies*
And look page 3-11 paragraph 3.2.4.2

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> @halloweene has some health problems.



That's unfortunate. Hope he gets well soon.



surya kiran said:


> Tu yahan kya kar raha hai? And what happened there. continuous server problem.



Arre bhai, I think IDF is under DDOS. Admins are yet to respond.

What's your IDF name?


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## topgun047

I doubt Rafale,whether 36 or 189 will make any difference in an air war with either PAF or PLAAF or both.
IAF has unquestionable superiority over PAF anyways and Rafale will not save IAF from being routed if PLAAF decides bring its might on IAF.
The kind of scenario IAF envisages Rafale being useful-doing ground attack over Pakistan and Tibet using low level flying to remain undetected will result in nuclear exchange ultimatly and is hence very improbable.
India should aim to maintain minimum conventional deterrance and use nuclear blackmailing with china and aim to outspend pakistan in covert warfare while maintaining the coventional superiority it currently enjoys.
Rafale wont make a telling difference in either scenario to justify handing over shiploads of hard earned money to the French making the rich even richer.
I agree with Karnad to dump Rafale and choose Tejas but that wont happen because Rafale is being forced upon India by France due to thier geopolitical alliance.India has wisely chosen to buy the minimal viable number of Rafale to mollify France and will only buy more if economics make sense.


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## rockstarIN

Where is @sancho any idea..

@SpArK , @Dash


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## Dash

rockstarIN said:


> Where is @sancho any idea..
> 
> @SpArK , @Dash



Sorry bro no idea...but he was lurking in PDF couple of weeks back. I saw him post in some thread.



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> You can google
> *Enhanced Aircraft Platform Availability
> Through Advanced Maintenance
> Concepts and Technologies*
> And look page 3-11 paragraph 3.2.4.2



You can get a fair idea here too in the attachment. but just a fair idea..

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## randomradio

topgun047 said:


> I doubt Rafale,whether 36 or 189 will make any difference in an air war with either PAF or PLAAF or both.
> IAF has unquestionable superiority over PAF anyways and Rafale will not save IAF from being routed if PLAAF decides bring its might on IAF.
> The kind of scenario IAF envisages Rafale being useful-doing ground attack over Pakistan and Tibet using low level flying to remain undetected will result in nuclear exchange ultimatly and is hence very improbable.
> India should aim to maintain minimum conventional deterrance and use nuclear blackmailing with china and aim to outspend pakistan in covert warfare while maintaining the coventional superiority it currently enjoys.
> Rafale wont make a telling difference in either scenario to justify handing over shiploads of hard earned money to the French making the rich even richer.
> I agree with Karnad to dump Rafale and choose Tejas but that wont happen because Rafale is being forced upon India by France due to thier geopolitical alliance.India has wisely chosen to buy the minimal viable number of Rafale to mollify France and will only buy more if economics make sense.



Nukes are overrated in the Indo-Pak scenario. 

And in the Sino-India scenario, nukes are the last resort. At best it will be a border war, even if it is long. The bigger threat is China's PLARF with conventional missiles.

The French are not forcing India to do anything. Read the last 4 pages.

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## topgun047

randomradio said:


> Nukes are overrated in the Indo-Pak scenario.
> 
> And in the Sino-India scenario, nukes are the last resort. At best it will be a border war, even if it is long. The bigger threat is China's PLARF with conventional missiles.
> 
> The French are not forcing India to do anything. Read the last 4 pages.


Last 4 pages of an internet forum are not proof of anything though I agree I should have qualified in my post that it was based on conjecture on my part.I thought that was understood.
Cheers.

Edit About the nukes being over rated in Indo-pak or even Indo-china theatre I vehemently disagree.
IMO nukes are the only weapons standing between Madras regiment aka Thambi as I learnt here and punjabi pussy./jk


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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> +++
> Poisoning of mind in full swing+++ By our fav Bharat Karnad.... In Indian Express...
> ++++
> 
> 
> 
> _*With Rafale facing production problems — only eight aircraft were outputted in 2014 — all the contracted Rafales won’t be in IAF service before 2030. *_
> 
> ++
> @Abingdonboy @randomradio @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil
> See previous posts, i said our smart and supremely intelligent analysts and writers would divide whole price by 36..
> _the defence ministry is reconciled to forking out Rs 63,000 crore for 36 Rafales. This works out to Rs 1,750 crore or nearly $270 million per aircraft _
> 
> This is despite all sources indicating less than Rs 60,000 Crs and closer to 56K crs.
> 
> So many factual errors and still people will hail it as gospel truth...


Rafale facing production problems! 
The production has been normal in 2014 with delivery of 11 Rafale, and 2015 with production of 11 Rafale and delvery of 5 Rafale to France, 3 Rafale to Egypt. The 3 remaining were delivered in January 2016 to Egypt, the delay was due to adaptation of configuration to egyptian needs. So in 2016 we will produce 11 Rafale and deliver 14.

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> You can google
> *Enhanced Aircraft Platform Availability
> Through Advanced Maintenance
> Concepts and Technologies*
> And look page 3-11 paragraph 3.2.4.2



Thanks a ton


















Dash said:


> Sorry bro no idea...but he was lurking in PDF couple of weeks back. I saw him post in some thread.
> 
> 
> 
> You can get a fair idea here too in the attachment. but just a fair idea..


Thats the same think we updated with more recent data and it came out to USD 97xx or less than USD 10000 against jane quoting USD 16500. The under 10000 USD is as per French Senat report and thus is of true field data over models used by Jane..

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 124
start from another page before.. so that you get all the gist of Vauban and Picdelamirand help in understanding CPFH from Senat report

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Dash said:


> Sorry bro no idea...but he was lurking in PDF couple of weeks back. I saw him post in some thread.
> 
> 
> 
> You can get a fair idea here too in the attachment. but just a fair idea..


As I already said I prefer official Data compare to a study paid by

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## Dash

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> As I already said I prefer official Data compare to a study paid by



Thats why I said, you can get a fair idea...

EDIT - Thanks @PARIKRAMA


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## Abingdonboy

topgun047 said:


> I doubt Rafale,whether 36 or 189 will make any difference in an air war with either PAF or PLAAF or both.
> IAF has unquestionable superiority over PAF anyways and Rafale will not save IAF from being routed if PLAAF decides bring its might on IAF.


Seriosuly? What kind of defeatist attitude is this? Thank god you don't have any say in military matters.

By 2030, the Indian economy will be the 3rd largest in the world and India will be more than capable of giving China a bloody nose if it invests properly in the right equipment now.

And it isn't a case of the LCA vs Rafale or Rafale vs FGFA or Rafale vs MKI as too many commentators try to frame the disscussion as to suit their own agenda. They are all very different products with very different strengths in mind and all will be coming to the IAF, there is no degree of mutual exclusivity with any of the above- more Rafales will not mean less LCA or vice versa.

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## Dash

Let this document from Dassult be here too..

Its almost the same thing as said by @Picdelamirand-oil 
@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy 

Link

*Mission ready with low operating costs*



French Air Force Rafale B in operations (Opération Serval) - In flight over Mali. Fitted with the Damoclès Pod and GBU-12 laser guided bombs. - A. Jeuland © French Air Force

1 – Built-in supportability

The _RAFALE_ supportability and mission readiness claims are supported by the undisputed track record of the earlier generation of French fighters, such as the combat-proven _MIRAGE 2000_.

From the early beginning of the development phase, the French MoD assigned very stringent “integrated logistic support” (ILS) requirements to the _RAFALE_ programme. “Computer aided design” (CAD) with the _Dassault Systèmes CATIA_ software suite, concurrent engineering and bold technological choices ultimately produced an ILS system that exceeds the original supportability requirements.

*The following examples, selected from a range of unique and innovative features, demonstrate the advance in reliability, accessibility and maintainability brought by the RAFALE:*


Based on 20 years plus of experience gained on the _MIRAGE 2000_, integrated testability of the Weapon Delivery and Navigation System (WDNS) has proven itself. Accordingly, it has been decided on the _RAFALE_ to extend it to all aircraft systems. *Thanks to accurate and comprehensive testability features, it allows targeted replacements to be made on the flight line*, down to electronic circuit boards and specific components.
*Human factors engineering work has been conducted with CATIA *in order to ensure the accessibility of the components within aircraft bays, so that all flight line operations can be carried out by a single technician. Special attention has been paid to minimizing the duration of these operations and the occurrence of errors.
*The centralised armament safety system* makes all safety pins and last chance / end-of-runway actions unnecessary, minimising the risk of errors and accidents, and contributing to achieve an unbeatable “turn around time” (TAT).
*Precision manufacturing techniques together with the use of CATIA *eliminate time-consuming boresighting procedures following cannon, head-up display (HUD) or radar exchanges.
*The groundbreaking design of the M88 *suppresses the requirement for a check on a dedicated engine test bench before reinstalling it back on the aircraft.
Deployments on forward operating bases, including austere airfields, have been made easier by *keeping ground support equipment to a minimum :*
The _RAFALE_ is fitted with an on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS) which suppresses the need for liquid oxygen re-filling. Ground support equipment for the production and transportation of oxygen is no longer required
Optronics are cooled by a closed-loop nitrogen circuit, which negates the need for a dedicated nitrogen supply chain.
The built-in auxiliary power unit (APU) makes engine start-up possible even when no ground power cart is available.
All ground support equipment is compact and foldable in order to be easily transportable by air. It can be used without external power. And only two types of carriages and cradles are necessary to perform all armament loading / unloading.
All these maintainability features have been thoroughly assessed and validated by French Navy and French Air Force maintainers.
2 – An affordable high-tech fighter

*Thanks to its outstanding reliability, the RAFALE has lower maintenance costs.*


Its unique maintenance concept results in a *lighter scheduled maintenance plan* with less man-hours and a smaller number of maintenance technicians.
For all its service life, *the RAFALE does not have to leave its operational base for maintenance purposes*. It does away with costly and time-consuming airframe and engine depot level inspections required on other types of fighter aircraft, with “shop replaceable units” (SRUs) the only items to be shipped for maintenance / repair.
A case in point is *the modular M88 engine*, made up of 21 modules: all maintenance and repair can be done by returning nothing more than modules or discrete parts to the depot or to the manufacturer. No balancing procedure and *no run-up check are necessary* before returning the engine to service.
Failure-prone systems have been eliminated early on in the design process:
there is no airbrake
the air intakes have no moving parts
the ac generators do not have any constant speed drive (CSD)
and the refuelling probe is fixed in order to avoid any deployment or retraction problem.
This results in *reduced spares inventory, less man-hours and less ground support equipment*.


Another source of reduction of the required spares inventory comes from the constant standardisation approach during the design phase,
The same part number is used at various locations on the airframe: this is made possible with precision airframe
Manufacturing which allows to suppress fitting and boresighting operations when installing airframe components.
Left-hand and right-hand parts are identical wherever applicable (i.e. foreplanes, FCS actuators).
Miscellaneous parts such as screws and electronic modules have also been included into the standardisation effort.
The required spares inventory is further reduced by adapting the troubleshooting procedures to allow the *exchange of electronic circuit boards within “line replaceable units” (LRUs), rather than exchanging the LRUs*: this applies to the _RBE2_ radar, the _SPECTRA_ EW suite, the _MDPU_ mission computer and to other equipment as well.
*Special attention has been paid to accessibility* *issues:* for instance, the side-opening canopy facilitates the replacement of the ejection seat, so that two technicians can perform its removal in 10 minutes only.
*No heavy test equipment is needed around the RAFALE on the flight line*: All checks at this level can be run by maintenance technicians on the aircraft itself.
*No test bench is needed for the M88 engine*, a remarkable first in fighter aircraft maintenance.
Based on significant experience in corrosion protection for carrier-based aircraft _(SUPER ETENDARD)_ and maritime patrol aircraft (_ATLANTIC 1/ ATLANTIQUE 2_), _DASSAULT AVIATION_ has developed new *advanced corrosion protection processes* which help drive down the cost of maintenance of the _RAFALE:_ corrosion issues discovered during maintenance being the perfect “show stopper” which exceeds spending targets and delays the return of aircraft to service in the most unpredictable way.

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## topgun047

Abingdonboy said:


> Seriosuly? What kind of defeatist attitude is this? Thank god you don't have any say in military matters.
> 
> By 2030, the Indian economy will be the 3rd largest in the world and India will be more than capable of giving China a bloody nose if it invests properly in the right equipment now.
> 
> And it isn't a case of the LCA vs Rafale or Rafale vs FGFA or Rafale vs MKI as too many commentators try to frame the disscussion as to suit their own agenda. They are all very different products with very different strengths in mind and all will be coming to the IAF, there is no degree of mutual exclusivity with any of the above- more Rafales will not mean less LCA or vice versa.



What you mistake as defeatist attitude is called realism.You would know more avout it if you stopped living in virtual world of internet forums and be a normal human being like the rest of us.See I can be snarky too but that never helps an argument.Peace and pleaseDont take my bs personally.I m only making a point.

Regarding PLAAF IAF matter it has been established since last century that wars are a function of industrial strength of a nation rather than valour of its soldiers.All factors which sigficantly impact the outcome of conflict between nations like numbers,geography(suits india),industry,infrastructure,technology etc are loaded in favour of china.
You cant fight china which can churn out 2 j 10 per month among other fighters with x number of imported rafales without ruining the indian economy.
Only fool would talk of a direct engagement with a stronger adversary based on some false sense of bravado.
Regarding India being this rich or that rich in year x my opinion is India will always underperform if it continues to take sub optimal decisions.I have already made it clear why i think rafale is a sub optimal decision.
Cheers bro.


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## randomradio

topgun047 said:


> You cant fight china which can churn out 2 j 10 per month among other fighters with x number of imported rafales without ruining the indian economy.



Have you read up on the Iran-Iraq war? I would suggest reading up on how much external support Iraq had at the time.

2 J-10s a month is peanuts. I'm sure China can produce 4 J-10s a month, maybe even 6. But at the same time I'm sure India can get 14 jets a month from Indian and foreign sources. India is building capacity to produce at least 7-8 jets a month in India over the next 10 years. Both Russia and France can deliver 6 jets a month with their normal construction speed. If we opt for an American jet like the F-16 in the second MRCA deal, the numbers can increase to 20 jets a month. A lot of these jets will be paid for by the West.

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## PARIKRAMA

You know if India wants and invest in manufacturing line and capacities, Dassault would be happy to churn out even 100-120 jets a year...

Its after all an investment.. If India invests to facilitate such massive increase in production i am sure the manufacturer will be happy to oblige..

Only one hiccup i see is such a humongous line will also require investments in supply chain and thats not going to be easy.. particularly for items with long lead times.

@Picdelamirand-oil @Vauban - Am i wrong to assume this..


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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> You know if India wants and invest in manufacturing line and capacities, Dassault would be happy to churn out even 100-120 jets a year...
> 
> Its after all an investment.. If India invests to facilitate such massive increase in production i am sure the manufacturer will be happy to oblige..
> 
> Only one hiccup i see is such a humongous line will also require investments in supply chain and thats not going to be easy.. particularly for items with long lead times.
> 
> @Picdelamirand-oil @Vauban - Am i wrong to assume this..



Our subcontractors for Rafale may not be able to handle that surge in production in India. But French suppliers can easily take care of that.



TejpalD said:


> No chance France or Russia churn out fighters for India, they have far too a close relationship with China for that to ever occur.



Actually, no. The Russians don't trust the Chinese yet. And France is part of NATO, they will support India.

In any case, a war between India and China will see huge international backing for India from the West.



> Not to mention India don't even have the pilots for 20 jets p/month.



Peacetime recruitment is different from wartime recruitment. IAF will head to colleges and recruit their pilots on spot for tests.

Anyway, the production of jets will happen after the war is over. A prolonged war between India and China is impossible because of the terrain.

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## Vergennes

PARIKRAMA said:


> You know if India wants and invest in manufacturing line and capacities, Dassault would be happy to churn out even 100-120 jets a year...
> 
> Its after all an investment.. If India invests to facilitate such massive increase in production i am sure the manufacturer will be happy to oblige..
> 
> Only one hiccup i see is such a humongous line will also require investments in supply chain and thats not going to be easy.. particularly for items with long lead times.
> 
> @Picdelamirand-oil @Vauban - Am i wrong to assume this..



No way Dassault can produce so much jets in a year.

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## randomradio

Vauban said:


> No way Dassault can produce so much jets in a year.



Picdel says Dassault can match LM in the number of F-35's produced per year.

If Airbus can deliver 600+ jets a year, then 100+ Rafales from Dassault won't be a big problem.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio said:


> Picdel says Dassault can match LM in the number of F-35's produced per year.
> 
> If Airbus can deliver 600+ jets a year, then 100+ Rafales from Dassault won't be a big problem.


Yes but not with the current assembly line. You need big perspective to build a new assembly line. What I wanted to say is only that it is technically possible.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Dassault would be happy to churn out even 100-120 jets a year...


I'm not sure about that, the productive capacity (and thus capital outlay) required to make such a vast amount of jets would be HUGE and would only be justifiable if you had >1000 orders in advance ie an assured 10 years of work. With a 200 unit order this production run would be completed in <2 years and that wouldn't be able to justify the allocation of resources. You would hten have thousands (if not tens of thousands) of a highly trained workforce to cull.

It's technically possible but highly improbable unless India commits to >1000 unit order (which won't happen).

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm not sure about that, the productive capacity (and thus capital outlay) required to make such a vast amount of jets would be HUGE and would only be justifiable if you had >1000 orders in advance ie an assured 10 years of work. With a 200 unit order this production run would be completed in <2 years and that wouldn't be able to justify the allocation of resources. You would hten have thousands (if not tens of thousands) of a highly trained workforce to cull.
> 
> It's technically possible but highly improbable unless India commits to >1000 unit order (which won't happen).


In fact for 200 an assembly line similar to the existing one is fine. You will be able to deliver from 11 to 33 plane a year. For 1000 you would have to build an assembly line able to deliver from 33 to 100 plane a year. But everything in between is possible. Just it has to fit with your needs.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> Thanks a ton



You could also look page 6-125 paragraph 6-11-5

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> You could also look page 6-125 paragraph 6-11-5



I was going through that chapter only.. In fact i wanted to understand the HARPAGON situation actually..





O- Operational/Organisational and I -industrial/Intermediate
In O Level there is on-board diagnosis,
and ongoing diagnosis and prognosis. In I Level there is the capability for complementary tests, performed
without a test bench and with the engine turned off. The tests include fuel leakage tests, fault localization tests,
control loop tests (e.g. inlet air control system), tests of the anti-icing vane, tests of the fuel flow meter, etc.

Now,





The M-88 also features some performance malfunction analysis. Various malfunctions are recorded for this
purpose. They include start sequence anomalies, such as overheating, stall, and slow start. They include other
performance anomalies such as long rotation, turbine overheat, electronic control unit overheating, compressor
stall, HP or LP shaft overspeed, and post-combustion anomalies. To minimize false alarms, there are two
monitoring channels, which are continuously compared. If necessary, other data is used to resolve discrepancies
between channels. If there is a control loop malfunction, a snapshot of all data at the moment of the event is
recorded.

For full prognosis (estimation of remaining life), Snecma’s SIAD system is interfaced with Dassault’s
HARPAGON ground-support system (Figure 6-47).











It also allows the Time Between Overhaul (TBO) of components to be increased (Figure 6-50). This in turn
provides the flexibility to increase the installed time of the engine and/or manage the maintenance of the
engine and its modules so as to optimize aircraft availability and life-cycle cost.







Now practically this whole concept is all too new for IAF i guess.. This is actually a jet whose data gets analysed and based on that effective action is taken to ensure minimal downtime and increase in mission reliability..

This implies the training imparted for Rafale Ground staff has to be pretty high in terms of standards and skill sets..

I am wondering how long does it take for a ground crew to complete such training... Bcz practically i see a huge employment opportunity for our Engineering graduates/post graduates in this segment..

Secondly, you are sure India can incorporate such changes or such high soft requirement over traditional hard maintenance? .. You know our fleet does not have such hi end stuff surely..

@Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Vauban @MilSpec @anant_s 
I remember Tay commenting on similar lines when we talked about high availability requirement for IAF and he pointed out the way processes and quality checks are undertaken for Rafales is completely different especially since FrAF methodology is pretty "revolutionary" if we consider from Indian angle..

I am indeed fascinated what kind of qualification you will require to be in rafale Support team as compared to any other IAF other jet..

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> You could also look page 6-125 paragraph 6-11-5



Ya its a big chapter but the basically decision is divided among two ways - one via _The Battle Damage Assessment and Repair (BDAR) _and other being inhouse advance computer assessment to improve repair decision making.

_6.11.5 The Rafale Repair Vision
6.11.5.1 Short Description of Rafale
As said before, an aircraft can be repaired easily only if it has been designed as a repairable item (size and
number of the parts – even if it is a trade-off with manufacturing cost – interchangeability, modularity, etc.).
Therefore, the repair vision presented hereafter really fits the Rafale, but most techniques or solutions could
be also used in other aircraft using similar technologies. In order to better understand them, the basic design
features of the Rafale are shown below:_
_• Structure using composites for 75% of the wet surface and 25% of the weight, new self-reinforced
structural elements (co-cured ribs inside the composites, titanium SPF-DB elements) and new low
observability features.
• Twin-engine aircraft with increased redundancies, strong integration of all sub-systems, full integrated
testability (structure, aircraft sub-systems, WDNS) with centralized failure management (including
visual and voice warnings), new wiring (buses and hyper frequencies), and high pressure hydraulics
(5,000 psi)_​





_6.11.5.2 Principles of the Structure Maintenance Study
The Battle Damage Assessment and Repair (BDAR) for the structure remains in line and follows the principles
of the initial maintenance study of the structure, but with specific requirements. Its principles are listed below.
There is a clear separation between the maximum allowable damage and the maximum repairable damage:
For maximum allowable damage, visual checks or NDI tests are defined with a detection threshold
compatible with the safe use without repair;_
_• For maximum repairable damage, the functional role (structural, electrical continuity, aerodynamics,
Radar Cross-Section (RCS), etc.) is analysed and the repair is defined to satisfy both the structural
strength and the functional performance; and
• For both categories of damage, the design criteria are simplicity, ease of use and minimum need of
Ground Support Equipment (GSE)._​_6.11.5.3 The Battle Damage Assessment and Repair (BDAR) Concept Evolution
Though the abbreviation RDC (which translates as Battle Damage Repair) is still in the title of [204],
its application is not limited to war time but includes particular circumstances where repairs have to be
performed under constraints of time or of lack of means and where standard maintenance procedures cannot
be applied. This has three consequences:_
_• A degraded level of safety must be accepted;
• The operational capabilities of the aircraft must be known precisely; and
• The behaviour in time and the reversibility of the repair must be insured.
During the years 2001 and 2002, a Working Group including Dassault Aviation, representatives of the Ministry
of Defence and of the French Air Force and Navy (basically an Integrated Product Team – IPT) conducted
studies to:
• Translate the “particular circumstances” concept into Rafale needs;
• Define a methodology to assist the “assessment” or “expertise aspect” (see Figure 6-84 below); and
• Validate the methodology on a number of examples._​





_6.11.5.4 Damage Assessment of the Aircraft
6.11.5.4.1 Structural Assessment of the Airframe
The first task is to detect the damage by visual inspection or with the use of available NDI standard means.
The second task is then to identify the structural elements which are concerned. The third task is to analyse
whether the damage is in the allowable limits for “no repair” (allowable damage) or whether it is repairable
(dimensions of the damage within the repairable limits). The fourth task is to identify the impact of the
potential repair on the structural strength and on other aircraft functional performances in order to define the
operational limitations which would apply to the repaired aircraft.
Some significant structural items are not repairable in a BDAR context. It is the case for the main structural
components, as a general rule, for all integrally machined parts and for some secondary structure components
which are subjected to particularly high stress levels (see Figure 6-85 below for criticality). For those
elements, in case of damage, two options exist depending on the “damage tolerance tables” (or, better,
on calculation results of the structural strength) and of the acceptable degradation in mission capability:_
_• A certain level of damage will be accepted to perform specific missions (for example air/ground
mission without external tank under the fuselage).
• A certain level of damage may be permissible by load factor limitation for instance for a ferry flight._​





This goes on to systems assessment





followed by operational assessment to repairs to maintenance and documentation to assessments via inhouse tools like CECILIA

The conclusion seems to be 
_While the section focuses on the Rafale aircraft, the subjects raised are universal and apply to many aircraft
facing the same context of Battle Damage Assessment and Repair. *Through the example used, it looks clear
that the major challenge in a BDAR context is the “system assessment” (expertise), and that this will be the
case for any new modern weapon system. It is obvious that Integrated Testability is a powerful tool to assist
the sub-systems assessment and that modularity and structural repairability (size and removability of parts)
are strong enablers to put the aircraft back to a flight worthy condition. *Both are available if they have been
incorporated to the design through an ILS approach; it is what Dassault Aviation has tried to do on Rafale to
make it a deployable and easily repairable aircraft.

NTIC and computer models can still offer a significant improvement potential to assist the repair decision.
We are clearly in favour of interactive computer tools which bring a considerable improvement over static
charts or data bases or manuals which cannot fit as closely the real damage to assess. It would be a subject by
itself to review them in detail due to their fast progress … and it is also probable that several of them will have
been presented in other sessions of this Workshop. As a simple example of further improvements, we have
demonstrated solutions to keep on the hardware (aircraft part or equipment) the description or the indication
of the repair which has been performed (4 Kbytes RFID tags or memory buttons – both have been tested
successfully in the aircraft environment) and, thus, to facilitate further proper repair in peace-time with simple
update of the repair information which is also automatically transferred to the Maintenance Management
System. The major advantage is that the “source information” is on the hardware itself where the work has
been performed and that it avoids the very well-known loss of accompanying documents_

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## Taygibay

PARIKRAMA said:


> Secondly, you are sure India can incorporate such changes or such high soft requirement over traditional hard maintenance?



It relates to what you describe in your first point and the answer is yes ... with a caveat!
You correctly point out how revolutionary skills and attitude will be required of the crews.
The same is required of the whole supply chain within and without IAF/India.That is why
way back after winning the MMRCA, Dassault had asked to use Reliance as a a partner.
Reliance as many worried Bharatis pointed out had no experience in the field. No but it
had a modern attitude towards work, less burdened by cultural traits, more streamlined!
That's what Dassault needed. Build the plant to our specs, hire your best open and dedi-
cated young minds and we'll do the teaching and overseeing. Which is a form of ToT ...

Just use those highly efficient employees later in another venture AMCA maybe!

But not being racist, there is no reason why it can't happen if you want to learn it!
It's not an ability problem but a mindset one, Tay.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> Secondly, you are sure India can incorporate such changes *or such high soft requirement *over traditional hard maintenance? .. You know our fleet does not have such hi end stuff surely..
> 
> I remember Tay commenting on similar lines when we talked about high availability requirement for IAF and he pointed out the way processes and quality checks are undertaken for Rafales is completely different especially since FrAF methodology is pretty "revolutionary" if we consider from Indian angle..
> 
> I am indeed fascinated what kind of qualification you will require to be in rafale Support team as compared to any other IAF other jet..


But software is an Indian specialty?

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## PARIKRAMA

Taygibay said:


> It relates to what you describe in your first point and the answer is yes ... with a caveat!
> You correctly point out how revolutionary skills and attitude will be required of the crews.
> The same is required of the whole supply chain within and without IAF/India.That is why
> way back after winning the MMRCA, Dassault had asked to use Reliance as a a partner.
> Reliance as many worried Bharatis pointed out had no experience in the field. No but it
> had a modern attitude towards work, less burdened by cultural traits, more streamlined!
> That's what Dassault needed. Build the plant to our specs, hire your best open and dedi-
> cated young minds and we'll do the teaching and overseeing. Which is a form of ToT ...
> 
> Just use those highly efficient employees later in another venture AMCA maybe!
> 
> But not being racist, there is no reason why it can't happen if you want to learn it!
> It's not an ability problem but a mindset one, Tay.



Indeed you are correct in every point.. The skillset learned is perhaps as you rightly said is the biggest TOT we can get here... and yes taht will surely help us in taking the MIC skill levels up surely..which in turn helps AMCA project or future other projects..



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> But software is an Indian speciality?



Software in terms of coding is of course.. What i mean from soft side is like a Business Analyst job here.. Once who looks into the requirements talk with the vendor, make a tailor made customized solution to the requirement..

Here the Rafale data and the Harpagon assessment for engines or for repairs BDAR (Battle Damage Assessment & Repair) is a revolutionary concept. The requirement is Rafale should be available for missions.. The crew perhaps a 2 member team acts as a business analyst analyzing the requirements and assessment by both systems (Harpagon and BDAR) and authorises the support team to proceed against the solution for a quick turnaround.. ala customised solution

Now presently, this plug and play approach for assessing is not widely used.. I think perhaps barring USA C17s and C130s or here and there few assets.. Most of the fleet is still "hard" repaired where technicians and ground crew knows stuff like back of their hand.. An experienced retired technician looking at old jets can tell you what is the problem just by hearing what pilots say about how he felt flying the jet.. You see what i am trying to point..

The way of approach is indeed changed.. The hangar may see a smartly suit wearing young kids with specs tapping onto his workstation (portable military grade) to understand the "health" of the jet.. He let the software act as a "Doctor" and he later uses "diagnosis" as directed to ensure jet is "healthy"

The decision making process is changing completely in the case of rafale.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

What puzzle me in the paper, is that we have a theoretical presentation of automatic inspection systems and diagnostic chapter 6.7.2, which ends with a paragraph of 9 lines in 6.7.2.4 to tell the hopes we have about the F-35 with full contingent, then there is chapter 6.7.3 which is the application of these theories and which is entirely devoted to the Rafale! All this in a NATO document.

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## Abingdonboy

@PARIKRAMA bro, I think your concerns about India's ability to implement the Rafale's diagnostic maintainence practice needn't exist. In fact, turn the question around, what makes you think the IAF couldn't do so? They have tailored their "grease monkeys" to the equipment they have had in the past- mostly rather simple Russian stuff, but as time has gone on they have changed with the times. The level of automation and diagnostics on the C-130J-30s, C-17s, AW-101s, AH-64E, BBJ, CH-47F etc will not be dissimilar to what is found on the Rafale, it will simply be the first time such features come on a fighter for the IAF. The IAF has a dedicated administrative branch charged with all these matters- Maintenance Command and they'll keep an eye on any gaps for sure.

The IN had appreciated the very nature of this and had started more intensive technical training of its officers in recent times (now looking to impart training to MSc levels).

This is at the user's end, as for the production agencies in India, there will simiarly be no issue IF, as @Taygibay has pointed out, Dassualt is working with an entity open to change and open to adopting alien practices. HAL is a long established entity with a vast scope of experience and thus would find it very hard to transform itself or conform to a partner's instructions- that is just the nature of cultural mindsets (it is a common issue found in M&As of firms in the same industry). On the other hand, if Dassualt is the clear senior partner and working with a relatively inexperienced private player (they all are in this feild) then it will be a far smoother process to implement the tried and tested practices from Magnac into a plant in India. Dassualt would be fighting all the way with HAL to get something similar done.

This is just the nature of us flawed creatures.



+ just as an aside, this is a part that is often overlooked and fits perfectly with "skill India" (under the ambit of Make in India)- another flagship policy of Modi's. To think he won't want to take leverage the Rafale sale to further realise that policy is rather naive, is it not?

^ this being aimed at those who are still clinging on to 0 MII element of the Rafale and only 36-54 Rafale's being procured off the shelf.

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> Now practically this whole concept is all too new for IAF i guess..



It simplifies maintenance. MKI and LCA are already equipped with such systems.

Google HUMS Su-30MKI

I can't post links.



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> But software is an Indian specialty?



Brahmos Aerospace chief Tamilmani pointed out that software is an Indian specialty. And it has something to do with the huge number of engineers who also learn software on their own even though they are not meant to specialize in the software field.


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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> What puzzle me in the paper, is that we have a theoretical presentation of automatic inspection systems and diagnostic chapter 6.7.2, which ends with a paragraph of 9 lines in 6.7.2.4 to tell the hopes we have about the F-35 with full contingent, then there is chapter 6.7.3 which is the application of these theories and which is entirely devoted to the Rafale! All this in a NATO document.




That may be primarily bcz F35 systems even though perhaps being advanced or similar is still not completely optimized.. Their coding still sucks and work is still going on.. Secondly the whole aircraft as a system is yet to reach a level of optimized state that the process flow and assessment module can be really understood..

I feel pity for the ground crew.. Knowing this Jet facing problem and half of them still not able to solve owing to too many restrictions, the manual and documentation i believe will keep changing almost like periodicals..

Thus in such a state, a publication in NATO document is far far away. Interestingly not even EF managed to publish like Rafale in this document.

Perhaps it indicates the maturity level the Rafale program has reached and the dominance of French people who had not just build a plane but ensured it meets the high standard of technology it has envisioned for yet it meets the easiest way to maintain & service..

Thanks again bcz this is a treasure document... Its really a whole big data mine..

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## Picdelamirand-oil

In France Harpagon is also connected to ATAMS which is a military version of AMASIS (used by civilian airline companies)
And ATAMS is connected to SIGMA which is the logistical system support of the Air Force. I have no link to ATAMS because it is a military product but I have a link to AMASIS.
It is certainly easy to find it if you want, the title is:
A.M.A.S.I.S (Aircraft Maintenance And Spares Information System) Modules and functions overview

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> Software in terms of coding is of course.. What i mean from soft side is like a Business Analyst job here.. Once who looks into the requirements talk with the vendor, make a tailor made customized solution to the requirement..



Analysis is one of the biggest industries for outsourcing in India.

And inflight monitoring systems are extremely old tech.

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## halloweene

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> @halloweene has some health problems.
> 
> I have made a small presentation:
> New Introductions | Page 30


i confirm. Pic wzs the head engineer of Atlantiqe 2 weapon systems and much more

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> Google HUMS Su-30MKI


Thanks got it..
From TRISHUL: HUMS For Su-30MKI

The heart of any health-and-usage monitoring system (HUMS) is a Data Acquisition Unit (DAU), capable of handling hundreds of input signals, supported by powerful processing hardware and software. The HUMS not only has the capability to monitor almost every aircraft system and sub-system, including the avionics sub-systems, it can also act as an engineering data recorder. For the Su-30MKI, AMS was contracted for providing total HUMS solutions, starting with the definition of the IAF’s qualitative requirements, followed by the provision (development and implementation), integration and support phases. AMS is South Africa’s Aerospace Monitoring And Systems (Pty) Ltd 












Thanks for the data.. So yes, its pointing to a similar direction


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## halloweene

randomradio said:


> That's unfortunate. Hope he gets well soon.
> 
> 
> 
> Arre bhai, I think IDF is under DDOS. Admins are yet to respond.
> 
> What's your IDF name?


i'm better thanks. although i may be absent in march

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> In France Harpagon is also connected to ATAMS which is a military version of AMASIS (used by civilian airline companies)
> And ATAMS is connected to SIGMA which is the logistical system support of the Air Force. I have no link to ATAMS because it is a military product but I have a link to AMASIS.
> It is certainly easy to find it if you want, the title is:
> A.M.A.S.I.S (Aircraft Maintenance And Spares Information System) Modules and functions overview


Thank you.. I will surely give it a read..


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## Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio said:


> In 2008, the MKIs that were in Red Flag had availability rates of over 90%. In two weeks, 8 MKIs had flown 850 hours.


You send 8 SU-30 MKI and *150 people*, which is two time what we send in OPEX. But it is a very good performance.

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## randomradio

halloweene said:


> i'm better thanks. although i may be absent in march



You might miss the contract signing then.


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## Taygibay

In 2008 at that Red Flag 04. there was another IAF aircraft ... a fighter ...

 Tay.


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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> You send 8 SU-30 MKI and *150 people*, which is two time what we send in OPEX. But it is a very good performance.



That doesn't mean all 150 are needed at a time. IAF sends two or three times the actual number of people than necessary during exercises. During Red Flag, we also had 2 IL-78 and 1 IL-76 and related crew.

During the last Indradhanush, IAF sent 4 Su-30MKI, but they also sent 15 pilots and 5 WSOs. Similarly multiple teams for maintenance are sent.

Anyway, the MKIs totally flew 140 sorties in 2 weeks. On the way back, the MKIs conducted 4 days of exercises with UAE.


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## Masterhunter

randomradio said:


> I don't like it either, but this is what's planned.
> 
> We need to replace 250 Mig-21s, 80 Mi-27s and 8 squadrons of missing capacity by 2027. That's 475 jets minimum. Then there's talk of dumping 60 Jaguars earlier than anticipated. That's not possible with just Rafale and Tejas. IAF wants something that is not as capable as Rafale, but is cheap enough for mass production in India.
> 
> Even with 20 Rafales, 16 Mk1A and 20 Gripen a year, we won't reach the magic figure of 475 by 2027. This is not counting attrition. So you can imagine how big the requirement is.



IAF sanctioned strength is 42 sqn by 2025.... I.e. about 756 (18 each sqn)...
By 2027.. IAF will have..
Su 30 .. 312....completed by 2022-23
LCA mk1A ..108...completed by 2025
Mirage2K ...50
MIG29.. 60
Jags. ..63( counted only with DARIN3)
Rafale ..36... Completed by 2022-23
TOTAl... 629...
The above number of planes order is almost confirm.

Shortage... 129 planes...
Way out...
a). 2 sqn of LCA mk 1A.. 36 ( prod of 16/planes already on.. Can be completedby 2027)
b). 2 sqn of Su 30/FGFA...40( can be completed by 2027)
C). 4 sqn of rafale..72 (18 from French line and 54 from MII..if line is established in India)...

Total... 158 planes ..
So by 2027.. We will have 629+148= 777...means 21 planes more than authorised strength..

This is all possible without a second MRCA ..I don't know from where u read or calculated that we can't make enuf jets to fullfill the number loss..
Also the number of shortage of 475 does not exist perse.. As without ordering a new plane ( only with existing orders and present planes) we will have 650 odd planes I.e. 35 sqn by 2025..

This number game is IAF one.. They give hyperinflated problems and numbers and quote numbers unrealistic. All articles we are losing 250 MIG 21 and 80 MIG 27, but no one says how many are we inducting?

What we need is firm order to dassault that we need 250 rafale....come make in India... That will be a best decision.
Or else, we can run in circles and do tender after tender...

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## randomradio

Masterhunter said:


> IAF sanctioned strength is 42 sqn by 2025.... I.e. about 756 (18 each sqn)...
> By 2027.. IAF will have..
> Su 30 .. 312....completed by 2022-23
> LCA mk1A ..108...completed by 2025
> Mirage2K ...50
> MIG29.. 60
> Jags. ..63( counted only with DARIN3)
> Rafale ..36... Completed by 2022-23
> TOTAl... 629...
> The above number of planes order is almost confirm.
> 
> Shortage... 129 planes...
> Way out...
> a). 2 sqn of LCA mk 1A.. 36 ( prod of 16/planes already on.. Can be completedby 2027)
> b). 2 sqn of Su 30/FGFA...40( can be completed by 2027)
> C). 4 sqn of rafale..72 (18 from French line and 54 from MII..if line is established in India)...
> 
> Total... 158 planes ..
> So by 2027.. We will have 629+148= 777...means 21 planes more than authorised strength..
> 
> This is all possible without a second MRCA ..I don't know from where u read or calculated that we can't make enuf jets to fullfill the number loss..
> Also the number of shortage of 475 does not exist perse.. As without ordering a new plane ( only with existing orders and present planes) we will have 650 odd planes I.e. 35 sqn by 2025..
> 
> This number game is IAF one.. They give hyperinflated problems and numbers and quote numbers unrealistic. All articles we are losing 250 MIG 21 and 80 MIG 27, but no one says how many are we inducting?
> 
> What we need is firm order to dassault that we need 250 rafale....come make in India... That will be a best decision.
> Or else, we can run in circles and do tender after tender...



You have taken a standard number of 18, that's why it comes to that number. What you need to do is count squadrons.

Su-30MKI = 13.5
Mig-29 = 3
M-2000 = 3
Jaguar = 3.5

Total = 23 without new inductions. 485 jets.

New inductions
Su-30MKI = 2
Rafale = 2
LCA Mk1/A = 6

Total = 33. 202 jets.

So at least 33 squadrons are confirmed by media.

It means we still need 9 squadrons of extra aircraft. That's about 180 aircraft.

You believe 180 aircraft can be achieved by 2027. Yes, it is possible, but you did not take into account that IN needs 7 squadrons by 2027. A large chunk of the Indian made Rafales will go to IN also. So 9 squadrons for IAF + 7 squadrons for IN. Totally we need 9+7 = 16 new squadrons by 2027.

After 2027, the IAF will continue inducting new squadrons since they want more than 50 squadrons in reality. The total squadron strength is expected to rise after 2027. So add another 8 squadrons. Obviously, the navy also plans expansion after 2027. So more squadrons for them also.

You haven't considered attrition replacement either. That could easily add 5 jets a year or more. And some of the aircraft to be manufactured in India will be exported also. This is meant to make the line more profitable.

So even the second MMRCA line is too less. We are pressed for time. That's why even the FGFA has been fast tracked.

Even AMCA has been fast tracked. Once the FSED starts, probably this year, the first demonstrator will be built by 2019. First flight is expected then. One more demonstrator and four prototypes out of seven are expected in a span of just three years after 2019. They want to finish flight testing before 2025. The new engine will be integrated before 2021, so that's probably when the first prototype will fly. FGFA will be equally slow, with FOC expected only in 2025. Regardless, we still need the second MMRCA line.



Masterhunter said:


> What we need is firm order to dassault that we need 250 rafale....come make in India... Or else, we can run in circles and do tender after tender...



The final numbers have been decided. The only people who know the numbers and the tranches outside Dassault and the Indian govt are Picdel, an ex-Indian Navy pilot called Vstol from IDF, a member called CNL from IDF and myself.

The numbers are part of the MoU that was signed in Jan. Once the first contract for 36 is signed, things will start moving in the Make in India front. The IN needs to complete evaluation for final numbers. MoD has pegged the number at 54 for now for the navy. The offsets will be covered by transferring tech for LCA program and building a production line in India.

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## Masterhunter

randomradio said:


> You have taken a standard number. What you need to do is count squadrons.
> 
> Su-30MKI = 13.5
> Mig-29 = 3
> M-2000 = 3
> Jaguar = 3.5
> 
> Total = 23 without new inductions. 485 jets.
> 
> New inductions
> Su-30MKI = 2
> Rafale = 2
> LCA Mk1/A = 6
> 
> Total = 33. 202 jets.
> 
> So at least 33 squadrons are confirmed by media.
> 
> It means we still need 9 squadrons of extra aircraft. That's about 180 aircraft.
> 
> You believe 180 aircraft can be achieved by 2027. Yes, it is possible, but you did not take into account that IN needs 7 squadrons by 2027. A large chunk of the Indian made Rafales will go to IN also. So 9 squadrons for IAF + 7 squadrons for IN. Totally we need 9+7 = 16 new squadrons by 2027.
> 
> After 2027, the IAF will continue inducting new squadrons since they want more than 50 squadrons in reality. The total squadron strength is expected to rise after 2027. So add another 8 squadrons. Obviously, the navy also plans expansion after 2027. So more squadrons for them also.
> 
> You haven't considered attrition replacement either. That could easily add 5 jets a year or more. And some of the aircraft to be manufactured in India will be exported also. This is meant to make the line more profitable.
> 
> So even the second MMRCA line is too less. We are pressed for time. That's why even the FGFA has been fast tracked.
> 
> Even AMCA has been fast tracked. Once the FSED starts, probably this year, the first demonstrator will be built by 2019. First flight is expected then. One more demonstrator and four prototypes out of seven are expected in a span of just three years after 2019. They want to finish flight testing before 2025. The new engine will be integrated before 2021, so that's probably when the first prototype will fly. FGFA will be equally slow, with FOC expected only in 2025. Regardless, we still need the second MMRCA line.
> 
> 
> 
> The final numbers have been decided. The only people who know the numbers and the tranches outside Dassault and the Indian govt are Picdel, an ex-Indian Navy pilot called Vstol from IDF, a member called CNL from IDF and myself.
> 
> The numbers are part of the MoU that was signed in Jan. Once the first contract for 36 is signed, things will start moving in the Make in India front. The IN needs to complete evaluation for final numbers. MoD has pegged the number at 54 for now for the navy. The offsets will be covered by transferring tech for LCA program and building a production line in India.



This is the same thing I wanna to hear to discuss...
See what is standard size for a sqn..18 or 20. IAF used 18 fro western planes and 20 for Russian ones. I M aware this is done to offset low availability of Russian planes. But it can be increased and looked into.
Also when govt sanctions sqn strength it does go into numbers, that is where IAF plays with it.

Now let's see what IAF has...it has sanctinoed strength has 42 sqn by 2027. It includes physical present and order confirmed.
Su 30..15 sqn..300 planes (312 on order)
Mig29/mirage/jags..9.5 sqn ..173 planes
LCA...6sqn...(108+20 on order)
Rafale..2 sqn.. 36.. (Order almost done)
Total.. 31.5 sqn... 629 planes...
deficient of about 11 sqn. All above orders will be completed by 2023-24.

Now what actually IAF need by 2027.. 42 sqn strength.
Heavy fighter..15-20 sqn
Medium...12-15 sqn
Light 12-15 sqn.

1. Heavy fighter . (15-20 sqn) already have 15 su30 sqn. Can order 2 more and will get by 2025 by then FGFA will start production.. Can get 1-2 sqn by 2027.

2. Medium fighter:- (12-15 sqn) we already have 11.5 sqn.. Can order 03-04 sqn more rafale by MII ..will get by 2027.

3. Light fighter12-15 sqn) .. Getting 6sqn by 2024.....can get max 03 more sqn by 2027.

So total sqn that can be made from existing or proposed prod line is 09-11 more by 2027..

This will complete our deficiency by 2027.

Now the problem is we need more light aircraft that is LCA...
The solution of our problem is having a second production line is tejàs and not a new MRCA line. IAF don't need more MRCA to build up numbers, it can be better done by LCA. A new production line of LCA from 2021 churning 8-16 plane/yrs.. Can gives us minimum of 56 planes to max of 112 planes... That is approx 3- 51/2 sqn more of LCA

About IN need of rafale, IN need rafale after 2027 as Vishal/Vikrant2 will come after 2028 at best. MII rafale line will produce about 16/yr from 2022 at worst, if all goes well( decision by Dec 2016, negotiations by dec 18/Jan 19 plus three yrs for 1st plane to roll out. So from 2022 we can have minimum11 Rafales/yr( comparison French prod line..to give a minimum of 66 planes (3.5 sqn)... Or 16/yr to give 96 planes(5 sqn). This matches my figure of minimum production.

Now, if LCA second line starts we càn have 12-16 sqn more by 2027..approx matching what IAF force structure should be.

We will be retiring JAG/mirage/MIG from 2030-35.. ..total of 9.5 sqn
From 2028-2035
FGFA- 3-4 sqn..( to make a total of 5sqn
AMCA -02
Rafale..2028-30 will give IN their 54 Rafales.. From 2030-35 , 05 sqn for IAF.
LCA..1-2 sqn to keep line open till 2030..
So total sqn IAF might get in 2028-2035 are 11-13 to replace 91/2 sqn..
By 2035, IAF will have
Su 30... 17 sqn +FGFA..5 sqn = 22 sqn of air superiority
Rafale.. 10-11 sqn+ AMCA 2 sqn = 12-13 of MMRCA
LCA... 13-16 sqn..
Total is 47-51 sqn...by 2035....

Now again IAF needs more to increase pilots than to increase combat strength... If IAF can get 1.2 pilot/plane from present ratii of 0.8, it can get more sorties from each plane during war and can utilise its air assets better.... And it's more economicalthan buying more planes...
IAF whatever I have seen them working, once u give them 50 sqn they will ask for 60 citing china has 60......
We will be fighting defensive while fighting china.. So in defensive warfare, we can very well assume that china needs more than 1.5 times of our air assets to get air space control.. If we have 45 sqn.. 10 sqn with good airdef will keep pak at bay nd 35 sqn against chinese border. China need to put 50 sqn against us while keeping its borders with Japan/Taiwan and SCS manned..they need a total of 70+ sqn...too big a number to achieve in conventional warfare.

Also in this u can include follow on order of 18 more rafake through French line..

And hence total sqn of rafale with IAF by 2035 will be 3 sqn (French line) + 5 sqn (2022-27 MII) + 5sqn (2031-35) = a total of 13 sqn... 2 more than what IAF actually wants by MMRCA (189 planes or 10 sqn)

This all is in addition to 3sqn for IN ( 2028-2030) and 12 extra if prod line can max churn out 16/ yr..
If the prod can churn at 24/ yr from 2022... U can get max 112 planes more (6sqn) and that can euip the complete navy if needed.

Finally India don't need a new MRCA line.. It waste and will add one more aircraft variety into IAF inventory. Just need to optimise Present prod lines or buy off the shelf..

An order of 3 sqn of MIG 29/35 or 2 sqn of PAKFA or 2-3 sqn of old M2K will cover any lag in procurement to buildup number without creating new infrastructure of new plane

For Indian Navy, present status is
1. INS vikramaditya. .airwing..MIG29.. delivery of 45 planes completed.
2. INS vikrant... Operational date 2018.. Possible airwing MIG29/NLCA.. Order of 30-40 odd MIG29 likely as NLCA is operational by 2025-26.. 
3. INS vikrant 2..operational in 2027-28. Airwing not finalised.. Likely NLCA/RAfaleM... 32 planes needed
4. INS Vishal.. Likly operational by 2030-32.. Airwing rafale M moat likely.. 54 planes needed.
5. iNS Vishal 2 likly operational date 2038-40.. Airwing Rafale/ Naval AMCA ..54 needed.. 

Hence by 2030 IN needs 4 -5sqn.. Of which 2 sqn of MIG29 will be ordered offthe shelf. And rest 2 sqn of rafale-M I have catered for. From 2032 for Vishal.. NLCa will be ready and inducted (2 sqn) and one sqn of rafale (already catered) so to complete Vishal airwing.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> The final numbers have been decided. The only people who know the numbers and the tranches outside Dassault and the Indian govt are Picdel, an ex-Indian Navy pilot called Vstol from IDF, a member called CNL from IDF and myself.


If this is true then Dassualt also know about the "second MMRCA" requirement to get numbers in service ASAP and thus, would it be fair to say that Dassualt are a profit maximising firm and would be interested to capture this extra revenue also so are working on a strategy to secure the "second MMRCA" order? Surely Dassualt are in the best postion of any global firm to secure follow on orders as they have all the ground work for MII laid. 

I would still much prefer a Rafale fleet of 200+ than a mixed Rafale/F-18 fleet of 240 or so- I think the latter will just lead to pain in the long term for the IAF.

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## Masterhunter

Abingdonboy said:


> If this is true then Dassualt also know about the "second MMRCA" requirement to get numbers in service ASAP and thus, would it be fair to say that Dassualt are a profit maximising firm and would be interested to capture this extra revenue also so are working on a strategy to secure the "second MMRCA" order? Surely Dassualt are in the best postion of any global firm to secure follow on orders as they have all the ground work for MII laid.
> 
> I would still much prefer a Rafale fleet of 200+ than a mixed Rafale/F-18 fleet of 240 or so- I think the latter will just lead to pain in the long term for the IAF.



Yea that should be the practical solution. To build up number we just one production line of Rafale and two prod line of Tejas..

Rafale fleet of 200 for IAF and 100 for IN is any day better than mixed fleet of rafale/F18 or rafale/Typhoon. 2 naval air bases and 4 bases for IAF is more than enuf to house these planes and economise the money spent on building base infrastructure.

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## Abingdonboy

Masterhunter said:


> 4 bases for IAF is more than enuf to house these planes and economise the money spent on building base infrastructure.


2-3 SQNs per base makes sense IMO- this is around the figure of M2Ks found at Gwalior and around the figure the IAF likes to operate for all other types.

@Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @PARIKRAMA 

Sirs, say the govt-govt Rafale deal is signed in a few weeks and the MII part by this time next year. 

a) How long to get 54 off the shelf Rafales into IAF service?
b) How long to get 150 Made in India Rafales into IAF service?

(for this I will discount the IN's Rafale requirements)

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## randomradio

Masterhunter said:


> Now the problem is we need more light aircraft that is LCA...



The second MRCA line is most likely for a single engine fighter.

As for a second line of LCA, there is no company today that can handle an entire aircraft production line. We will have to raise one over the next 10 years and then have private companies taking over AMCA production when the time comes.



> About IN need of rafale, IN need rafale after 2027 as Vishal/Vikrant2 will come after 2028 at best.



IN needs the Rafales this decade. They don't have enough fighters for both Vikramaditya and Vikrant.

All the aircraft that we need through MMRCA program will be for immediate needs. That's before 2030. Post 2030, we will only be making FGFA and AMCA for IAF. If production of MMRCA continues, it will be for export.

Also IAF has stated that they don't want single engine fighters after 2027.



> And hence total sqn of rafale with IAF by 2035 will be 3 sqn (French line) + 5 sqn (2022-27 MII) + 5sqn (2031-35) = a total of 13 sqn... 2 more than what IAF actually wants by MMRCA (189 planes or 10 sqn)



Rafale production in India won't take that long unless a new version is made. Even then, it is unlikely IAF will buy anything except FGFA and AMCA. I actually proposed the Rafale production line can make way for the FCAS UCAV after 2030.

Also, Rafale is expensive. The second MRCA line is expected to offset the difference in prices for more numbers. If left to the IAF, they would prefer only Rafale. The second MRCA line is being done by Modi and Parrikar, it's not an IAF decision.



> Hence by 2030 IN needs 4 -5sqn..



Bro, I would suggest you go by what IN wants and not what you think IN wants. IN has asked for a 200 fighter jet air wing by 2027. And today they have only 45 Mig-29s. They still need 155 jets. And N-LCA Mk2 will most likely not happen since the navy is now looking at N-AMCA. Even if it did, they will order 45 jets. There will still be 110 jets pending.

The IN need a lot of coastal defence jets. Jets will have to be stationed at INS Hansa, INS Kadamba, INS Varsha and INS Baaz. Apart from 3 carriers, that need extra jets on land bases as reserve.

The 45 Mig-29Ks are meant for INS Vikramaditya and INS Hansa. A squadron will be deputed to INS Vikrant until new aircraft are inducted. Or they will have to buy another squadron of Mig-29s as a stop gap.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> The second MRCA line is most likely for a single engine fighter.


See, I don't see it- this would mean the Gripen and for a whole hosts of reasons the Gripen just isn't an attractive option to India or the IAF. The most troublesome issue would be the fact that the Gripen in IAF service would all but kill the LCA, this is counter productive to India's long term interests.

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> If this is true then Dassualt also know about the "second MMRCA" requirement to get numbers in service ASAP and thus, would it be fair to say that Dassualt are a profit maximising firm and would be interested to capture this extra revenue also so are working on a strategy to secure the "second MMRCA" order? Surely Dassualt are in the best postion of any global firm to secure follow on orders as they have all the ground work for MII laid.



It won't happen. Dassault won't be able to match the price of say Gripen E/F or F-16/SH in order to bag the contract. And Dassault won't be able to match the timeline either since Rafale and MRCA production is expected to happen in parallel, not as a follow on.

According to MMRCA, Dassault was expected to manufacture 20 jets a year for IAF. Now that IN's in the picture with 54 jets, Dassault will have to boost production to at least 25-30 jets a year. If you count exports, like the Saudis want 72 jets, and 5 more countries are interested in Rafale now. So Dassault will have a hard time supplying to all these countries at once.

Dassault's total production in France is 33 a year. The same line in India will help produce 36 jets a year. These two lines together will have to manage at least 400 exports, minus the jets that IAF/IN or ADLA/MN want.

The French line already has a commitment of 144 jets for export. ADLA/MN will place a 5th trance order soon for 40+ jets. So they are booked for years even with a 33/year line.

Only a combination of Indian and French lines can handle the remaining 5 countries. So it's not like they can start producing extra jets for the IAF/IN any time soon. It will take them 5.5 years after 2018 to deliver 120 export jets to India, UAE and Qatar at 22/year.



> I would still much prefer a Rafale fleet of 200+ than a mixed Rafale/F-18 fleet of 240 or so- I think the latter will just lead to pain in the long term for the IAF.



It's much more than that. Imagine the 'full size' of the MMRCA contract + another MMRCA contract. Dassault cannot handle it in a short term basis. Dassault has delivered only 150 jets over the last 15 years. They may have to deliver 500+ jets over the next 15 years.


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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> Bro, I would suggest you go by what IN wants and not what you think IN wants. IN has asked for a 200 fighter jet air wing by 2027


This is actually very true and I was looking for the exact quotes to back it up before saying so.



randomradio said:


> And today they have only 45 Mig-29s. They still need 155 jets. And N-LCA Mk2 will most likely not happen since the navy is now looking at N-AMCA. Even if it did, they will order 45 jets. There will still be 110 jets pending.





randomradio said:


> The 45 Mig-29Ks are meant for INS Vikramaditya and INS Hansa. A squadron will be deputed to INS Vikrant until new aircraft are inducted. Or they will have to buy another squadron of Mig-29s as a stop gap.


The window on new MiG-29Ks is closing IMO as the Dassualt offer is just too attractive for the IN to resist for long- the Rafale being offered as a common platform for the IN's STOBAR and CATOBAR carriers thus a common training, spares and support base going well into the future for every single new carrier (it's more than a little tempting IMO). 45 more MiG-29Ks as a stop gap would not come with any industrial benefits and would all be off the shelf procurements.

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## randomradio

Masterhunter said:


> Rafale fleet of 200 for IAF and 100 for IN is any day better than mixed fleet of rafale/F18 or rafale/Typhoon.



Add 126 more for MRCA. And it could very well be Gripen as long as it is cheaper than the SH.

So 200+100+126. I told you, we need more than 500 jets for IAF alone.
200 Rafale
126 LCA Mk1/A
126 Gripen/SH

All three in parallel production. This is how the numbers are. You have also not taken delays into consideration.

The second line for Mk1A is not possible for the next 5-10 years.



Abingdonboy said:


> See, I don't see it- this would mean the Gripen and for a whole hosts of reasons the Gripen just isn't an attractive option to India or the IAF. The most troublesome issue would be the fact that the Gripen in IAF service would all but kill the LCA, this is counter productive to India's long term interests.



It won't kill LCA. LCA Mk1A will be purchased. At least the 106 minimum followed by another 2 or 4 squadrons. IAF is most likely not going for the Mk2, but it depends on how soon it is introduced. If Mk2 is ready by 2023, then IAF will buy 2 to 4 squadrons of the Mk2 instead of the follow on Mk1As. AMCA program has become more aggressive.



Abingdonboy said:


> Sirs, say the govt-govt Rafale deal is signed in a few weeks and the MII part by this time next year.
> 
> a) How long to get 54 off the shelf Rafales into IAF service?
> b) How long to get 150 Made in India Rafales into IAF service?
> 
> (for this I will discount the IN's Rafale requirements)



Check post 1946 for more details.

First Make in India Rafales are only expected the next decade.

The Rafales from Dassault's line will be capped at 36. The Make in India production will be for a new version.



Abingdonboy said:


> The window on new MiG-29Ks is closing IMO as the Dassualt offer is just too attractive for the IN to resist for long- the Rafale being offered as a common platform for the IN's STOBAR and CATOBAR carriers thus a common training, spares and support base going well into the future for every single new carrier (it's more than a little tempting IMO). 45 more MiG-29Ks as a stop gap would not come with any industrial benefits and would all be off the shelf procurements.



US DoD is forcing IN to pick the F-35C. So even the F-35 is in the play.

I don't like extra Mig-29s either.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> It won't happen. Dassault won't be able to match the price of say Gripen E/F or F-16/SH in order to bag the contract.


The only logical contender here is the F-18SH then.


randomradio said:


> Dassault's total production in France is 33 a year. The same line in India will help produce 36 jets a year. These two lines together will have to manage at least 400 exports, minus the jets that IAF/IN or ADLA/MN want.



Surely the Indian production line would be solely focused 100% on Indian orders first and with them completed would switch to orders for third nations? As such, say the Indian production line really can churn out 36/year, if it is up and running fully in 2021/2 it can produce 180 Rafales for India by 2027, take away 54 for the navy and you are left with 126 ie 1 full MMRCA for the IAF by 2027- made in India. Then add on the 54 for the IAF delivered by Dassualt off the shelf and you are at 180 Rafales for the IAF by 2027- around 9-10 SQNs worth (and 3 SQNs of Rafale-Ms with the IN). If the IN orders Rafale-Ms for the IAC-1 or its sister ship for STOBAR ops then the above will not be sufficent for the 2/3 carriers (IAC-1/IAC-1's sister ship and IAC-2).



@PARIKRAMA @anant_s guys, isn't it funny that all this time we have been talking/despairing about "the mother of all deals" the MMRCA and now we are actually enterataining the notion of a _second_ MMRCA 


I don't know whether this is reality or we are all expereincing shared hysteria based on how long and arduous this process has been thus far.



randomradio said:


> US DoD is forcing IN to pick the F-35C. So even the F-35 is in the play.


As much as I don't want to concede the need for a "second MMRCA" potentially an order for F-18SHs (for the IN or IAF) would negate this? Any option that keeps the F-35 out of Indian service needs to be pursued.

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> The only logical contender here is the F-18SH then.



It's unclear. The Gripen line has to be built from scratch while the SH line can simply be transferred since production is ending in the US. This is where the SH can compete in price.

But Gripen is quite cheap if we look at the Brazil deal. Only 5.5B for 36 jets with ToT and production. That's much cheaper than the 6B for the Australian SH deal for 24 with specific modifications.

And Gripen NG has mind blowing performance.



> Surely the Indian production line would be solely focused 100% on Indian orders first and with them completed would switch to orders for third nations? As such, say the Indian production line really can churn out 36/year, if it is up and running fully in 2021/2 it can produce 180 Rafales for India by 2027, take away 54 for the navy and you are left with 126 ie 1 full MMRCA for the IAF by 2027- made in India. Then add on the 54 for the IAF delivered by Dassualt off the shelf and you are at 180 Rafales for the IAF by 2027- around 9-10 SQNs worth (and 3 SQNs of Rafale-Ms with the IN). If the IN orders Rafale-Ms for the IAC-1 or its sister ship for STOBAR ops then the above will not be sufficent for the 2/3 carriers (IAC-1/IAC-1's sister ship and IAC-2).



You've got some of the numbers right. But versions also matter. IAF is not doing what they did with MKI. They will buy the Rafale in tranches whenever new versions of Rafale are released.

The first 36 are of a different version, higher than F3-04T but lower than F3R, possibly. The next XX will be F3R and then another XX numbers of F3R2. Then the MLU version.

Dassault also plans for a new version after 2030, to complement the new FCAS.



> Any option that keeps the F-35 out of Indian service needs to be pursued.



Anything is possible when the navy is involved. They have warmed quite well to American products. Buying the P-8Is, showing interest in the Osprey and Hawkeye, and so on.

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## randomradio

TejpalD said:


> France will support India, doesn't mean they will on a warpath production rate for India. Neither will Russia. That is akin to declaring war (albeit proxy) on China. No chance.



No such thing. NATO will support India. Russia will support India's war machine. For both countries, money is to be made.



> Yes, and peacetime recruitment quality is different from "wartime recruitment" quality. Pilots won't be anywhere near the standard or as a capable.



The bad ones will be rooted out. Unlike before when only those who were interested joined, there could be forced recruitment during wartime.



> So let me get this straight, in the next 15 years there will be a need to replace 245 MiG-21s, 85 MiG-27s and 145 Jaguars (albeit being upgraded). So that is nearly 500 jets that need to be replaced within the next 15 years...what exactly is the solution because that looks like a drastic situation?



It's not 145 Jaguars. Only 63 Jaguars will get the DARIN III treatment + AESA. The rest will be put in storage or phased out early. There's a shortage of 8 squadrons today.



> Really seems desperate that within 15 years, 500 jets will be required and I haven't heard of a second MMRCA whilst the first saga still hasn't even finished AND the replacement, the saving grace that is the Tejas is being spat on by the IAF.
> 
> Chutiye.



IAF has reduced requirements and are inducting the Mk1A. AMCA is much more important. Unlike LCA, AMCA will chart the course for our aerospace industry for the next 30 years.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> 2-3 SQNs per base makes sense IMO- this is around the figure of M2Ks found at Gwalior and around the figure the IAF likes to operate for all other types.
> 
> @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @PARIKRAMA
> 
> Sirs, say the govt-govt Rafale deal is signed in a few weeks and the MII part by this time next year.
> 
> a) How long to get 54 off the shelf Rafales into IAF service?
> b) How long to get 150 Made in India Rafales into IAF service?
> 
> (for this I will discount the IN's Rafale requirements)


My point of view: 54===>2022 ; 150===>2027

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## Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio said:


> The final numbers have been decided. The only people who know the numbers and the tranches outside Dassault and the Indian govt are Picdel, an ex-Indian Navy pilot called Vstol from IDF, a member called CNL from IDF and myself.
> 
> The numbers are part of the MoU that was signed in Jan. Once the first contract for 36 is signed, things will start moving in the Make in India front. The IN needs to complete evaluation for final numbers. MoD has pegged the number at 54 for now for the navy. The offsets will be covered by transferring tech for LCA program and building a production line in India.


Numbers can change. The MMRCA numbers were based on a squadron number of 21 planes, and now we know that with Rafale IAF will made 16 planes squadron. It is because the real objective is to have 14 planes availables and with a 90% availability 16 plane by squadron are enough.
Similarly the objective of Navy is to have 12 planes available by squadron: for that currently they made 18 planes squadron, but they will modify that with Rafale to 14/squadron. So you have to modify 54 ===>42.

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> a) How long to get 54 off the shelf Rafales into IAF service?
> b) How long to get 150 Made in India Rafales into IAF service?



Conservatively, 36 are expected from Year 3 to 5.5 so add another max 2 years for additional 18. So counting from today, the outer limit is middle of 2023.

As i remember the report i had from the Reliance side, they talked about establishing a line in approx 30 months with 6 months slack period for any contingencies... This clearly implies if MII work starts from Jan 2017 assuming deal is signed by 2016 year end, the worse case scenario production can start from end of 2020...

The report quoted 16 jets a year with an average load of 14 per year at that time.. Even if i assume its double now or say 32-36 odd jets a year, the financial viability will change a lot. This will push the Break even point in terms of numbers and value further... In fact the operational timeframe of line has to be further increased to prolong a return as there are additional fixed costs to be paid and max to max 15 years of tax holiday can be expected or a concession in a Aerospace/ Aircraft Manufacturing SEZ which Reliance wants its unit to be situated upon.

Conservatively, the line even if i assume starts with say a best case scenario of 36 jets line
2021 - 12
2022 - 24
2023 - 36
2024- 36
2025- 36
2026 - 36
----------------------

By the end of year 2025 thats 144 jets implying iAF has 144+54 = 198 Rafales
By the end of year 2026 thats 180 jets implying IAF has 180+54 = 234 Rafales

So the challenge this line structure will have is 

What after 2026? Your investment for plant set up took 3 years and line is active for 7 years so whole end to end 10 years..
Will the plant exclusively cater to exports after meeting Indian requirement
Assume further that due to IN needs the Rafale M are not made in Merignac line but say that also in Indian Line.. Assume IN needs is also approx 100 jets (54-60 for IAC2 and say 40 odd for IAC 1 follow on or reserves or anything)

That keeps the line running for 
2027 - 36
2028 - 36
2029 - 24 + 12 left

----
Thus the whole plan goes a bit tipsy turvy in terms of financial planning..

What i firmly believe is Indian line from Day 1 will be divided among IAF requirements and export customers..

In all probability the 54 flyaway which will be superior to F3-OT4 but below F3R, but in case of Indian line i firmly believe from Day 1 the version would be a customised F3R like and later F3R2.. Thus essentially the numbers divided and in all practical sense lowering the need for a large fleet MLU will see production till F3R2 whose launch date may be around 2022/23 types so implementing in our line would not see the need for a large fleet MLU

IF i remove the method of taking production up or ramping angle and consider directly numbers in linear fashion for easy comprehension, i see some scenarios like this..







As you see a squadron per year gives us 160 jets by 2030 whereas 20 jets a year by 2028.. Raising it to 1.5 sq a year gives us 160 jets in 2027 timeline..

Of course the export orders may be diverted to India too if We desire that and export orders can be met from merignac only situation.

Interestingly @Picdelamirand-oil pls correct me if i am wrong to assume that Merignac line will run at 33 jets a year surely right from 2021 (perhaps from a year or 2 earlier) Merignac line can give a productivity in between 242-363 jets from 2021-30.. So will Dassault have a market for 242-363 jets?
Assuming FrAf another Tranche - The gap is still over 200-320 jets in that decade..

What i want to point out is incase Indian line is very huge and after meeting orders it caters to exports or partially caters to exports like scenarios given here, the market for Rafale has to be much much bigger...

Thus, IMHO it would be pretty extreme case if we consider just 36 jets a year for India every year.. Unless India wants a humongous Rafale Fleet within shortest timeline and are ready to shell the amount needed for it..

Perhaps also one need to look at the supply chain part seeing optimization and localisation cost benefit coming into this production chain... a large production just for India wont let this benefit come in in such a short period of time..

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> Conservatively, 36 are expected from Year 3 to 5.5 so add another max 2 years for additional 18. So counting from today, the outer limit is middle of 2023.
> 
> Thus the whole plan goes a bit tipsy turvy in terms of financial planning..
> 
> Interestingly @Picdelamirand-oil pls correct me if i am wrong to assume that Merignac line will run at 33 jets a year surely right from 2021 (perhaps from a year or 2 earlier) Merignac line can give a productivity in between 242-363 jets from 2021-30.. So will Dassault have a market for 242-363 jets?
> Assuming FrAf another Tranche - The gap is still over 200-320 jets in that decade..


You have to take into consideration that the assembly line is viable economically from 11/year to 33/year. So you can adapt your production to your needs. If you get a lot of export you continue full production rate, but if export are deceiving you can decrease your production to the right level. Also you cannot decrease from 33 to 11 in one day but in one year.And if Dassault build a new line in India it could be different from the French, it could be a 15/45 line for exemple.

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> You have to take into consideration that the assembly line is viable economically from 11/year to 33/year. So you can adapt your production to your needs. If you get a lot of export you continue full production rate, but if export are deceiving you can decrease your production to the right level. Also you cannot decrease from 33 to 11 in one day but in one year.And if Dassault build a new line in India it could be different from the French, it could be a 15/45 line for exemple.



In that scenario, what do you think would be the best case of line size in India .. Bcz i see Dassault benefiting from lower human capital cost of India versus Merignac line..and for that the line production has to be a bit longer is nt it? and use partially its production for export customers too...And still cater to Indian needs in say max 12 years.. add to it 3 years setup, i see 15 years whole project term minimum side..

The medium case also throws an interesting scenario of a squadron per year or 192 jets over 12 years and an option of 96 more either for exports or for India or for null production...Of course the variables can change and so can be the case of production line quantity or duration overall

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## Dash

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> And if Dassault build a new line in India it could be different from the French, it could be a 15/45 line for exemple.



15/45 is including French line or only India?

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## Masterhunter

@randomradio @Abingdonboy 

See plan for IN is to have 04 carriers and four bases at A&N, laksdweep, Goa and Vizag..
The total requirement is 32+32+32 = 96 (for carriers) and 18 each for four bases = 72... Total of 168 planes by 2028. Add 54 for Vishal which will come after 2030 if its CATOBAR. Add five years more if its nuclear and EMALS. Now IN has 45 MIG 29 +46 NLCA is on order. Order of 24-32 more MIG is likely do vikrant as there is no one who can supply its airwing by 2019 except MIG29. Sso now we are left with 45 more planes to cater for Vikrant 2 and few bases.. Here IN is looking for 36-54 rafale to cater for Vikrant 2 as well as A&N.. Vikramaditya and vikrant will have 24 MIG +8NLCA or 16 each as airwing. Rest of the MIG make base defence sqn at hansa and dega. Vikrant 2 will fly rafale/NLCA combo. 

The IN wants 200 fighter jets by present timelines of INS Vishal to be commissioned by 2028.. If that happens Vikrant 2 is out and the airwing requirement is 168+18= 186.. But present scenario of Vishal predicts that it won't be in service by 2028... As it will be new design and with nuclear power/EMALS it will take minimum 15 yrs from today if design is finalised in 2016 to give us timeline of 2032. That why there is possibility of vikrant 2. 
As of now A&N and maritime sqn is with IAF and it will stay the same and IN will take over only after 2030 once Jags started being phased and IN will take over the mantle of A&N and maritime sqn. So timeline of 2027 does not fit in into that... It will be most likely 2030. How ever one thing is sure by IN will have following jet strength
2030 ..150-175.... 3 carriers 
2035..220-250... 04 carriers (3+1)
2040..250-275..(2+2)
By 2040 IN will start looking to replace MMIG9 also

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## Abingdonboy

TejpalD said:


> I can't get my head around the shortage of fighters. It amounts to 500 with just the MiGs and Jaguars and then there is the shortage of 8 squadrons today and God knows shortage of how many squadrons by 2030 when PLAAF go into their typical spamming fighter jet routine as well as donating jets to PAF.
> 
> It is actually quite a disgusting state by the IAF and they are still bloody haggling over the Rafales.


The GoI/MoD/IAF are all to blame for this, frankly, appaling state the IAF finds itself in. It's as if they have had their eyes closed for the past 15 years whilst the PLAAF (and even PAF) have been expanding at greater and greater speed with the IAF having stagnated. Now the situation faced is bordering on an emergency and is only going to get worse (as those MIGs in ICU are going to start being pronounced dead in the near future). I don't know what miracle these so-called "leaders" were hoping for but it simply hasn't materialised and yet they have just sat idle waiting for one to present itself. 

To correct the course tough and innovative decsions need to be made today, not in 5/6/7/8/9 years time- by then it will be far too late.

@PARIKRAMA and I have been disucssing this sorry state for a while.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Dash said:


> 15/45 is including French line or only India?


It's only India, french line needs to continue because Rafale is considered a strategic asset due to ASMP-A ==> France cannot get its Rafale from abroad.

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## Dash

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> It's only India, french line needs to continue because Rafale is considered a strategic asset due to ASMP-A ==> France cannot get its Rafale from abroad.



Then I doubt we can achieve 15 to 45 from year one, but may be in 3-4 yrs. But now you got me curious.
Do you specially configure anything in a Rafale for ASMP-A ? I am sure there will be software modifications as its a strategic weapon but I guess that would be a plug in. I dont see any structural changes to the plane as such?

EDIT: another question, couple of pages back you claimed that Rafale's operational availability is 97%. Do you have any literature available for that claim. I would be grateful to see it.

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> The GoI/MoD/IAF are all to blame for this, frankly, appaling state the IAF finds itself in. It's as if they have had their eyes closed for the past 15 years whilst the PLAAF (and even PAF) have been expanding at greater and greater speed with the IAF having stagnated. Now the situation faced is bordering on an emergency and is only going to get worse (as those MIGs in ICU are going to start being pronounced dead in the near future). I don't know what miracle these so-called "leaders" were hoping for but it simply hasn't materialised and yet they have just sat idle waiting for one to present itself.
> 
> To correct the course tough and innovative decsions need to be made today, not in 5/6/7/8/9 years time- by then it will be far too late.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA and I have been disucssing this sorry state for a while.



I think key here is 2 prong approach
1. To attract more talent and fresh faces in IAF and IN fixed wings and rotary wings arm
2. To have a solid plan backed by implementation where we target say 1000 Jets for IAF by 2045-46 or make it 2050 also followed by IN having a strong 500-600 fleet of jets

The question to ask is how its possible,,, We need lines in India churning out to meet almost 1200 new jets for 30 years of production and use the next 3-5 years to set that course (when i add 1000+600 - 400 approx of surviving jets and rest considering retired).

This implies almost 40 jets a year kind of figure is required for continuous basis. Now imagine a simple situation where we decide just 4 jets for future.. LCA (IAF+IN), Rafale (IAF+IN) , FGFA (IAF) and AMCA (IAF+IN)

A simple planned structure implementation like below could take the cake








The above structure for example

LCA can have different versions as per upgrades available to both IAF+IN.
Rafales can have both IAF+IN Needs
FGFA purely IAF
AMCA comes in at the very end of Rafale production timeline and caters to IN and IAF both
Off the shelf or purchases from direct import mechanism is outside all this.. (read Mig29Ks or white elephant F35s or PAKFA direct procurement or anything else)

In essence i am replacing a considerable amount of other competition as well as considering everything to be under MII

Its just an example but if we as i mean GOI/MOD can implement such a simple plan, we kind of make up for everything in a step by step concrete manner..

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> In that scenario, what do you think would be the best case of line size in India .. Bcz i see Dassault benefiting from lower human capital cost of India versus Merignac line..and for that the line production has to be a bit longer is nt it? and use partially its production for export customers too...And still cater to Indian needs in say max 12 years.. add to it 3 years setup, i see 15 years whole project term minimum side..
> 
> The medium case also throws an interesting scenario of a squadron per year or 192 jets over 12 years and an option of 96 more either for exports or for India or for null production...Of course the variables can change and so can be the case of production line quantity or duration overall



The French line is able to produce between 11 and 33 plane a year and I suppose we duplicate that in India. at short term we will produce at maximum rate and at mid term we will tune the rate.

For the French line we have to produce 18 Egypt, 24 Qatar, 83 France (10 before 2020) and 36 India that's 161. 
But the 73 for France are from 2020 to 2032 so at a rate of 6/year only. So there is a potentiality for export of 5 minimum to 27 maximum by year.

11 in 2016; 11 in 2017; 15 in 2018; 33 in 2019; 24 in 2020; 6 in 2021......2032

Now you can add the new export or India if you need to get Rafale faster. 

There is a possibility of 9 in 2020 and 27 from 2021 to 2032.

It is likely that we will have new order in middle east between 60 and 80 (Egypt +Qatar+Saoudi Arabia+UAE) so we will produce 24 in 2020 and 14 between 2021 and 2032.

So for me the new line in India is for India only, because there is potential to growth in the French line.



Dash said:


> Then I doubt we can achieve 15 to 45 from year one, but may be in 3-4 yrs. But now you got me curious.
> Do you specially configure anything in a Rafale for ASMP-A ? I am sure there will be software modifications as its a strategic weapon but I guess that would be a plug in. I dont see any structural changes to the plane as such?
> 
> EDIT: another question, couple of pages back you claimed that Rafale's operational availability is 97%. Do you have any literature available for that claim. I would be grateful to see it.


For strategic asset there is control of production all along. It can be perform only in France. It's to ovoid any malign product.
I had literature for the availability, and I gave a link in IDF Forum, @randomradio saw it, but I fail to find it again for the moment. Sorry.

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## Dash

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> I had literature for the availability, and I gave a link in IDF Forum, @randomradio saw it, but I fail to find it again for the moment. Sorry


No problem. To be specific, this 97% is kind of short burst during war or a linear line through out the operational life? where the maximum desirable attainability during peace time is 75% globally but do it for economic reasons. If French have been able to make it at least 90% then I would say its a wonderful achievement.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Dash said:


> No problem. To be specific, this 97% is kind of short burst during war or a linear line through out the operational life? where the maximum desirable attainability during peace time is 75% globally but do it for economic reasons. If French have been able to make it at least 90% then I would say its a wonderful achievement.


We have two "disponibility" the technique and the operational. One of these disponibility takes into account the way the French use Rafale. For exemple we stop tu use it and store Rafale when it reach the maximum hours planned. And the Rafale stored are declared non available even if they are completly able to fly in 1 hour. And there is an other "disponibility" where we remove all these bias. For the latter the availability in France is around 93% and in operation is around 97%. The difference between the two depends of the organisation of maintenance : to get 97% cost more but is important in operation.
And France have OPEX (OPeration EXtérieure) for several years now: Afganistan, Lybia, Mali Central Africa, Syria.

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## Dash

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> We have two "disponibility" the technique and the operational. One of these disponibility takes into account the way the French use Rafale. For exemple we stop tu use it and store Rafale when it reach the maximum hours planned. And the Rafale stored are declared non available even if they are completly able to fly in 1 hour. And there is an other "disponibility" where we remove all these bias. For the latter the availability in France is around 93% and in operation is around 97%. The difference between the two depends of the organisation of maintenance : to get 97% cost more but is important in operation.
> And France have OPEX (OPeration EXtérieure) for several years now: Afganistan, Lybia, Mali Central Africa, Syria.



I understand the "disponability" part, but I had assumed a 85-90% operational availability.but 97% is pretty high number and the cost associated with it is very higher, considering 75%-85% as an economic threshold and anything beyond that costs you an arm and a leg after that. Anyway, thats great to know and it makes sense to France when you have a single fighter platform for all your needs. It must have high serviceability and operational readiness.

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> They will buy the Rafale in tranches whenever new versions of Rafale are released.
> 
> The first 36 are of a different version, higher than F3-04T but lower than F3R, possibly. The next XX will be F3R and then another XX numbers of F3R2. Then the MLU version.



That's a wrong approach in your first sentence. There is no such thing as versions so far.
One of the major advantages to Rafale is that standards rule and tranches mean orders only.
All the Rafales produced can and are being upgraded ( w/w-o optional equipments onboard )
to the latest standard. That means that up to the MLU that may include cell re-design ...
all Rafales are one model with adaptation work and the idea of splitting orders on that base is
null and void.

Tranches in our case contrary to the Typhoon lines for example are the same as going to the store
once a week for a month to get 3 bread loafs each time. That gets you the same 12 loafs as if bought
in bulk and since freshness is not as much of a problem with fighters than with baguettes, there is no
need save cash flow/ capitalization to split the orders.

Two small footnotes :

Pilot numbers are a problem for the IAF. In India's interest, this has to be addressed at the same time
as the procurement itself so the 2 meet.

Anytime anyone mentions the SH in relation to India, I stop listening / reading. That plane lost the MMRCA!!!
Only in India do people keep harping on such things. The Royale tried to get F-18s back before the Raffy got
started and delayed and then restarted. Then it got so-so aircrafts with little ready, a hurried if not botched
order to compensate the delays. Yet even then, no one came back with the Hornet-SH buys!

It's like breaking up a relationship : it's been 2 years since and she's not coming back nor getting thinner?
At some point, get over it, get over her, get over yourself! She ain't coming back!

Good day all, Tay.

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Numbers can change. The MMRCA numbers were based on a squadron number of 21 planes, and now we know that with Rafale IAF will made 16 planes squadron. It is because the real objective is to have 14 planes availables and with a 90% availability 16 plane by squadron are enough.
> Similarly the objective of Navy is to have 12 planes available by squadron: for that currently they made 18 planes squadron, but they will modify that with Rafale to 14/squadron. So you have to modify 54 ===>42.



I'm not entirely sure this will work anymore. Earlier, IAF asked for less number of Rafales per squadron as part of a bargain to save costs. This is for aircraft that are to be imported from French line. I think you may remember, IAF asked for 44 extra aircraft from French lines a few months ago. That came to 5 squadrons.

Now that Make in India is going to happen for sure, the numbers will go back to normal, 18 per squadron + 1 reserve. If Rafales are coming from an Indian line, the IAF won't have to go back to 16 aircraft per squadron.



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> I had literature for the availability, and I gave a link in IDF Forum, @randomradio saw it, but I fail to find it again for the moment. Sorry.



Yes, the pdf files are on IDF. We don't have the link for it. I failed to bookmark it or download it also.

The images were hosted on imageshack, so imageshack has deleted them.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> I'm not entirely sure this will work anymore. Earlier, IAF asked for less number of Rafales per squadron as part of a bargain to save costs. This is for aircraft that are to be imported from French line. I think you may remember, IAF asked for 44 extra aircraft from French lines a few months ago. That came to 5 squadrons.
> 
> Now that Make in India is going to happen for sure, the numbers will go back to normal, 18 per squadron + 1 reserve. If Rafales are coming from an Indian line, the IAF won't have to go back to 16 aircraft per squadron.




You are referring to 80 flyaway jet news which so called our DM Mp did not agree for right?


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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> That's a wrong approach in your first sentence. There is no such thing as versions so far.
> One of the major advantages to Rafale is that standards rule and tranches mean orders only.
> All the Rafales produced can and are being upgraded ( w/w-o optional equipments onboard )
> to the latest standard. That means that up to the MLU that may include cell re-design ...
> all Rafales are one model with adaptation work and the idea of splitting orders on that base is
> null and void.
> 
> Tranches in our case contrary to the Typhoon lines for example are the same as going to the store
> once a week for a month to get 3 bread loafs each time. That gets you the same 12 loafs as if bought
> in bulk and since freshness is not as much of a problem with fighters than with baguettes, there is no
> need save cash flow/ capitalization to split the orders.



I think there is some confusion here. Rafale versions are F1, F2, F3, F3-04T and F3R. All these have different configurations. Tranches are merely the times orders have been placed.



> Pilot numbers are a problem for the IAF.



No such thing. We are phasing out old jets, so free pilots are available as and when new jets are inducted. And unlike France where growth is limited, the population in India is getting richer by the day, so more capable youngsters get the qualification to become pilots ever year. In a decade from now, we will have more youngsters and less jobs. So many will opt for IAF.



> Anytime anyone mentions the SH in relation to India, I stop listening / reading. That plane lost the MMRCA!!!
> Only in India do people keep harping on such things. The Royale tried to get F-18s back before the Raffy got
> started and delayed and then restarted. Then it got so-so aircrafts with little ready, a hurried if not botched
> order to compensate the delays. Yet even then, no one came back with the Hornet-SH buys!



SH, F-16, EFT and Gripen are back in contention for a second MMRCA. This is independent from Rafale deal.



PARIKRAMA said:


> You are referring to 80 flyaway jet news which so called our DM Mp did not agree for right?



Yeah, that's right.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

I just find something!






I can't give you the link yet

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> I think there is some confusion here. Rafale versions are F1, F2, F3, F3-04T and F3R. All these have different configurations. Tranches are merely the times orders have been placed.



The confusion is entirely yours! All Rafales are to the same standard, period! Ask Dassault.

The rest being of the same caliber, I'll let you go at it.

GL, Tay.


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## PARIKRAMA

@randomradio 
I will agree here with @Taygibay as i had discussed this in detail with @Abingdonboy too
See this




Its source is 






The solution suggested by committee is 






@Picdelamirand-oil @Vauban @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ 
I would love to hear your opinions on this..

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> The confusion is entirely yours! All Rafales are to the same standard, period! Ask Dassault.
> 
> The rest being of the same caliber, I'll let you go at it.
> 
> GL, Tay.



Why Dassault when Picdel is here?

All Rafales can eventually be upgraded to the same standard, but all these versions are different.

F1 had no Spectra
F2 had basic capabilities
F3 had full capabilities of RBE-2 PESA and Spectra
F3-04T had new upgrades to Spectra, like DDM-NG and also the new RBE-2AA AESA radar
F3R will have new Spectra upgrades like GaN + new upgrades for radar like multiplexing.
F3R2 will have conformal array radar with GaN + new upgrades from new programs.

You can upgrade F1 to F3R standards, but these are versions.

So every time new capabilities are inserted, new versions are created, so new orders have to be placed. In France, there are already 4 tranches of orders, and Picdel says a new 5th tranche order will be placed. This is different from versions of aircraft.



PARIKRAMA said:


> @randomradio
> I will agree here with @Taygibay as i had discussed this in detail with @Abingdonboy too
> See this
> View attachment 294157
> 
> Its source is
> 
> View attachment 294158
> 
> 
> The solution suggested by committee is
> 
> View attachment 294160
> 
> 
> @Picdelamirand-oil @Vauban @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ
> I would love to hear your opinions on this..



I'm aware of the number. This ratio can be changed in one or two years. We don't have problem with pilot induction, we had problems with pilot training. Once we have achieved the required strength for the Pilatus and Hawk trainers, we won't have problems anymore.

It's a very temporary problem now.

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> Why Dassault when Picdel is here?



Because his real name is not Trappier?



randomradio said:


> So every time new capabilities are inserted, new versions are created, so new orders have to be placed.



Not at all! See below :



randomradio said:


> F1 had no Spectra





randomradio said:


> F3-04T had new upgrades to Spectra, like DDM-NG and also the new RBE-2AA AESA radar



And yet the F1s are back on the F3+/F4 line as we speak!
Either you can't or you don't want to understand.
In any case, I'm done answering such nonsense.

Goodbye, Tay.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio said:


> Why Dassault when Picdel is here?


So I have to answer 
All French Rafale are currently F3-04T And it's a policy to have the same standard for all plane.
How it is possible?
Take the example of the new AESA Radar : it seems that there is only few such Radar and then few F3-04T, but it's not true because F3-04T is able to manage AESA and PESA, so we have upgraded all Rafale to the last standard and when needed we plug and play the right antenna on the Rafale.
Idem for FSO or FSO-IT; idem for DDM or DDM NG and so on.
And I hope that when we will have GaN antenna for SPECTRA they will be plug and play too.

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## AUSTERLITZ

PARIKRAMA said:


> @randomradio
> I will agree here with @Taygibay as i had discussed this in detail with @Abingdonboy too
> See this
> View attachment 294157
> 
> Its source is
> 
> View attachment 294158
> 
> 
> The solution suggested by committee is
> 
> View attachment 294160
> 
> 
> @Picdelamirand-oil @Vauban @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ
> I would love to hear your opinions on this..



I'm shocked.Very important point u have highlighted.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

AUSTERLITZ said:


> I'm shocked.Very important point u have highlighted.


The availability of the plane could be a problem too
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 126

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Because his real name is not Trappier?
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all! See below :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yet the F1s are back on the F3-04T line as we speak!
> Either you can't or you don't want to understand.
> In any case, I'm done answering such nonsense.
> 
> Goodbye, Tay.





Picdelamirand-oil said:


> So I have to answer
> All French Rafale are currently F3-04T And it's a policy to have the same standard for all plane.
> How it is possible?
> Take the example of the new AESA Radar : it seems that there is only few such Radar and then few F3-04T, but it's not true because F3-04T is able to manage AESA and PESA, so we have upgraded all Rafale to the last standard and when needed we plug and play the right antenna on the Rafale.
> Idem for FSO or FSO-IT; idem for DDM or DDM NG and so on.
> And I hope that when we will have GaN antenna for SPECTRA they will be plug and play too.



And hence the confusion.

You are confusing variant with version.

Su-30MKI also comes in various versions, Mk1, Mk2 Mk3 etc. Variant is like Su-30MKK, Su-30MKI or Rafale A, Rafale C etc.

Su-30MKI, MKA, MKM, SM are all same variant, different versions.

Su-30MK, Mk2, MKK are all same variant, different versions.

So Su-30MKK can never be upgraded to MKI because they are different variants.

But Su-30MKI can be upgraded to the superior Su-30SM because they are just different versions.

However in IAF's case, IAF has to order one version, and then pay for another version in another lengthy process of bureaucracy and negotiations. That's why we are still building Su-30MKI on the production line and only upgrading them to a new version when they go for overhaul after many years.

So if IAF orders the F3-04T today, they will have to keep building the F3-04T forever, even if F3R2 becomes available in France. To change from F3-04T to F3R2, they will have to place new orders according to Indian procurement laws. Or they will have to upgrade them to a new standard after buying the originally ordered standard in a separate process.

But if IAF also shifts to production in tranches like ADLA, they never did that for MKI, they can buy the new versions whenever they are available like France does. So this is my point.

You are assuming I'm saying F3-04T and F3R are different variants. This is my previous quote.


> You can upgrade F1 to F3R standards, but these are versions.




So I hope it is much clearer now.


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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> and now we know that with Rafale IAF will made 16 planes squadron. It is because the real objective is to have 14 planes availables and with a 90% availability 16 plane by squadron are enough.


Well this is the answer to a lot of the dismay going on around here about a fighter deficit. And whilst it is true that there is a vast requirement for new fighters to be inducted, some of the numbers floating around are going to be a bit faulty because they are assuming 1 SQN=18 planes. However, the IAF is satisfied with 16 aircraft Rafale SQNs- with 90% availability offering 14 "ready" aircraft at any one time, which fits with the 75% availability of 18 unit MKI SQNs that would deliver 13.5 "ready" aircraft at any one time.

Hence, an induction of 200 Rafales would translate to 12.5 SQNs and not 11 SQNs (as with 18 unit SQNs)-an entire SQN has been gained just by taking account of the higher availability of the Rafale. This clearly wouldn't be enough to reach the sanction 42 SQN strength by 2027 but it will help and is something we need to be aware of because remember that talking about outright fighter numbers is meaningless- the IAF (and GoI) measures its strength by SQN figures and this is the defeiceny all reports talk about. You will never hear the IAF/MoD/GoI complaining about a desrth of fighter numbers, it is always about SQN strength- this is the metric.


@PARIKRAMA interestingly this is also something the media absolutely fails to talk about when proposing the MKI as an alternative to the Rafale- in a SQN you would have to procure 2 extra units per SQN (in today's MKI market that's >$200 million) just to get the same force levels of 1 Rafale SQN. Multiply that by >10 SQNs and their LCC and the savings to be made in this one area alone are in the billions of USD.

The Rafale just makes too much sense- which is my fear, Indian leadership is rarely driven by logic and sense.

@Taygibay @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @Masterhunter @anant_s @mkb95 @MilSpec @nair @SpArK @SrNair @sathya @AUSTERLITZ @Levina

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## PARIKRAMA

@Abingdonboy 
Actually it's all about availability rate.. Take an example of LCA tejas..

If for example per squadron its 20 jets then @75% availability its 15
@70% availability its 14
@80% availability its 16

Now high number in a fleet is a one thing and coat of having high availability another.. 

To me this logic of too many numbers don't matter at all as I am more concerned about pilots availability plus adequate training experience in those frames actually that they are experienced enough to handle the strategies and mission in an optimum efficiency level.

Thus I see end to end 4-5 years from induction to training in different trainer jets to ajts to finally getting first sortie in the squadron assigned to proper on the go experience for optimum efficiency levels...

This makes me believe that every new face taken today will start showing true performance 5 years from now.. Which implies every higher availability aircraft helps me address the critical human shortage issue also and ability to maintain strength doctrine..

Yes you are right that every additional jet is also a cost.. But then I will let it go for MKI owing to the numbers we have and roles it has to undertake since rest of our tiers are practically short handed in birds as well as pilots..

It's a deep rooted issue and I pointed before pilots plus a clear plan of MII implementation is the need of hour

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## Dash

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Abingdonboy
> Actually it's all about availability rate.. Take an example of LCA tejas..
> 
> If for example per squadron its 20 jets then @75% availability its 15
> @70% availability its 14
> @80% availability its 16
> 
> Now high number in a fleet is a one thing and coat of having high availability another..
> 
> To me this logic of too many numbers don't matter at all as I am more concerned about pilots availability plus adequate training experience in those frames actually that they are experienced enough to handle the strategies and mission in an optimum efficiency level.
> 
> Thus I see end to end 4-5 years from induction to training in different trainer jets to ajts to finally getting first sortie in the squadron assigned to proper on the go experience for optimum efficiency levels...
> 
> This makes me believe that every new face taken today will start showing true performance 5 years from now.. Which implies every higher availability aircraft helps me address the critical human shortage issue also and ability to maintain strength doctrine..
> 
> Yes you are right that every additional jet is also a cost.. But then I will let it go for MKI owing to the numbers we have and roles it has to undertake since rest of our tiers are practically short handed in birds as well as pilots..
> 
> It's a deep rooted issue and I pointed before pilots plus a clear plan of MII implementation is the need of hour



Just for fun. pilot to cockpit ratio is 0.84 then how much will be the availability for twin seaters?

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## Masterhunter

@randomradio..

At least we agree on one thing till now that IAF needs about 20-22 sqn of jets by 2027...and IN need about 6-7 sqn by 2027. So total of 26-29 jets...

Now what IAF is getting is about 2su30, 6 LCA, 2 rafale +1 FGFA.. 11 sqn.. 
IAF needs about minimum 9-11 sqn by 2027... That is about 200 jets.

IN too needs about 120 odd jets by 2027.. I am saying its NLCA (2sqn) plus 24-32 order of MIG29.. Leavin g requirement of 2-3 sqn that about 50-60 planes..

A total of 260 jets. Max by 2027.

Now that point is from where IAF can get this... U are saying second MRCA of F18/ gripen.. This is in addition to a rafale prod line in India.
Also u are saying being and gripen will be cheaper than rafale...

Mate, few things u have missed in this calculation 
1. A new type of plane in MII means investment of few billion dollars to make it.. I read somewhere in this forum that boieng asked for minimum order of 200 planes to make it economical viable to MII.. Or else cost of each plane will increase.

2. Cost of base infrastructure creation... Dassult asking for 1.4 billion dollar for one base for rafale and already two bases are created in present order. In your view point of second MRCA of 126 fighters, we need creation of infrastructure on minimum 03 bases...that means an investment of 4.2 billion dollars.

3. Cost of training/spares and logistics. 1-1.5 billion for 36 planes in rafale pricing. So what is it for new variety of 126 planes.. Training will be more. Spares may cost same even if we order more rafale.

4. Also you were saying gripen NG is better and u also contradict that IAF won't buy single engine after 2027 while countering my argument for LCA so u think that gripen will make a production line in MII just for 126 planes and after 2027 close its line as IAF not interested.. Do you think it is financially viable. 

5. You are saying no private firm can make second prod line for LCA in 5-10 years, yet dassault/Boeing/Saab..in collaboration of pvt sector are saying they can start producing in 3yrs max. You wanna say no pvt firm can make LCA second production. Line operational in 3-4 yrs in India if given a order of 126 planes?

6. Again you are saying IAF only wanna buy FGFA and AMCA after 2030... And still you advocating that new prod line along with rafale line, what will happen to these production lines? And is it not that this investment will get waste..

7. Su30 and HAL line will be converted to FGFA and AMCA.. So can be utilised. More so HAL is DPSU..

To conclude, if IAF operates 12 sqn (2 old and 10 new) of rafale.. Then it needs 4 bases max. And if IAF operates 7 rafale (total 9) and 6 second MRCA.. It needs to create one more bases for rafale and three for second MRCA.. So it comes to approx 4 billion dollar extra expenditure.

Rafale flyaway cost is 83 M dollar and F18 SH is 65-70 M dollar and gripen NG will cost samabout 60-65M.
With MII and 200+ order for rafale cost will be 10-15% cheaper as its development cost is distributed over larger order and cheaper labour .. And also the cost of production is spread over bigger order.. It comes to 75M dollar...
If we get say rafale production line for 108 sqn and 108 from gripen/F18 the cost of establishing production line will increase the cost of these planes. And cost of rafale will also increase as the economies of scale is reduced.

And mate AMCA will start inducting after 2030-32.. And operating FGFA/AMCA in big numbers will be prohibitive in long run.. So IAF will go for max 10 sqn of FGFA and 10 sqn of AMCA and keep 30 sqn of 4.75++ Gen jets like rafale and supersukoi... Til 2045-50 or so..

The way out is same as I said again.. It's 2016 now..
1. Get a pvt player for second prod line for LCA and churn out minimum of 8/yr (max 16) starting 2020.. Till 2027.. We can get 56-112 odd LCA that is 03-06 sqn... After 2024-27 HAL line will produce NLCA (46). The additional LCA can be inducted by IAF is 4 sqn (80) taking the total number to 10 sqn. Rest 32 can be exported. And LCA is cheap..about 40M each...

2. Tell dassault to establish a line of 12/24/36 or 15/30/45... If cleared by 2016 end they can start producing by 2021 Jan.. So the possible number wud be like this..
2021/22/23 -16*3= 48
2024-27-- 24* 4= 96
So a total of 144 Rafales.....
Out of IAF can induct 96 and can also get 18 from France taking a total induction to 108.

So total aircraft that can be inducted by IAF 108 rafale ( 6 sqn) and 80 LCA ( 4sqn). That means a total of 10 sqn by 2027..

Rest 54 (3sqn) can be inducted by IN.. What estimate I have give for rafale line is conservative one.. It can increase production a bit more also..

This calculation does not have scope for new production line for new aircraft. 

In your rafale export order possible can go vey big... Like Saudi 72 and fifth trance of FrAF.. But if dassault make rafale in India..every other is not even required..bcoz IN/IAF alone can ask for about 250+ rafale..and add about 80-100 for FrAF.. These two will become priority and rest all will wait except Egypt and Qatar..dassult can increase merignac production line to 22-33 / yrs.. And after fulfilling orders for qatar+ India(54) + FrAaF(45)... After 2023 or so they can start exporting Saudi order if its placed..but the point is Rafale cost will come dwon will such big orders... And it will better for both india and France.



Abingdonboy said:


> Well this is the answer to a lot of the dismay going on around here about a fighter deficit. And whilst it is true that there is a vast requirement for new fighters to be inducted, some of the numbers floating around are going to be a bit faulty because they are assuming 1 SQN=18 planes. However, the IAF is satisfied with 16 aircraft Rafale SQNs- with 90% availability offering 14 "ready" aircraft at any one time, which fits with the 75% availability of 18 unit MKI SQNs that would deliver 13.5 "ready" aircraft at any one time.
> 
> Hence, an induction of 200 Rafales would translate to 12.5 SQNs and not 11 SQNs (as with 18 unit SQNs)-an entire SQN has been gained just by taking account of the higher availability of the Rafale. This clearly wouldn't be enough to reach the sanction 42 SQN strength by 2027 but it will help and is something we need to be aware of because remember that talking about outright fighter numbers is meaningless- the IAF (and GoI) measures its strength by SQN figures and this is the defeiceny all reports talk about. You will never hear the IAF/MoD/GoI complaining about a desrth of fighter numbers, it is always about SQN strength- this is the metric.
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA interestingly this is also something the media absolutely fails to talk about when proposing the MKI as an alternative to the Rafale- in a SQN you would have to procure 2 extra units per SQN (in today's MKI market that's >$200 million) just to get the same force levels of 1 Rafale SQN. Multiply that by >10 SQNs and their LCC and the savings to be made in this one area alone are in the billions of USD.
> 
> The Rafale just makes too much sense- which is my fear, Indian leadership is rarely driven by logic and sense.
> 
> @Taygibay @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @Masterhunter @anant_s @mkb95 @MilSpec @nair @SpArK @SrNair @sathya @AUSTERLITZ @Levina



This is exactly I wa talking about...the number game of IAF.... ... If availability of Su30 is increased to 75-80% .. We can get a sqn with 18planes.. Think over a figure of 350 Su30 (number we all are talking about .. It's 17 sqn (20 planes) and 19 sqn(18 planes)... Same with rafale ... 200 planes will give u 11 sqn(18 planes) and and 12.5 sqn (16 planes)... So u automatically gets 3.5 sqn without actually inducting anything and then IAF nothing to say about falling numbers....

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Abingdonboy
> Actually it's all about availability rate.. Take an example of LCA tejas..
> 
> If for example per squadron its 20 jets then @75% availability its 15
> @70% availability its 14
> @80% availability its 16
> 
> Now high number in a fleet is a one thing and coat of having high availability another..
> 
> To me this logic of too many numbers don't matter at all as I am more concerned about pilots availability plus adequate training experience in those frames actually that they are experienced enough to handle the strategies and mission in an optimum efficiency level.
> 
> Thus I see end to end 4-5 years from induction to training in different trainer jets to ajts to finally getting first sortie in the squadron assigned to proper on the go experience for optimum efficiency levels...
> 
> This makes me believe that every new face taken today will start showing true performance 5 years from now.. Which implies every higher availability aircraft helps me address the critical human shortage issue also and ability to maintain strength doctrine..
> 
> Yes you are right that every additional jet is also a cost.. But then I will let it go for MKI owing to the numbers we have and roles it has to undertake since rest of our tiers are practically short handed in birds as well as pilots..
> 
> It's a deep rooted issue and I pointed before pilots plus a clear plan of MII implementation is the need of hour





Dash said:


> Just for fun. pilot to cockpit ratio is 0.84 then how much will be the availability for twin seaters?


The pilot ratio issue is a bit of red herring IMO as the situation as it is as a result of training capacity issues caused by the insufficent trainer fleet. This has only very recently been addressed with the induction of the Hawk Mk.132s and PC-7s, now the IAF is increasing annual training of pilot batches on a consistent basis. It takes a long time to train a pilot but by 2018 this issue should largely be recitified and by 2020 it will certainly be a thing of the past (the one thorn being the outstanding >100 requirement for BTTs that should have gone to Pilatus but HAL twisted the MoD's arm and now we have to wait at least 4-5 years for the HTT-40  ).



Masterhunter said:


> @randomradio..
> 
> At least we agree on one thing till now that IAF needs about 20-22 sqn of jets by 2027...and IN need about 6-7 sqn by 2027. So total of 26-29 jets...
> 
> Now what IAF is getting is about 2su30, 6 LCA, 2 rafale +1 FGFA.. 11 sqn..
> IAF needs about minimum 9-11 sqn by 2027... That is about 200 jets.
> 
> IN too needs about 120 odd jets by 2027.. I am saying its NLCA (2sqn) plus 24-32 order of MIG29.. Leavin g requirement of 2-3 sqn that about 50-60 planes..
> 
> A total of 260 jets. Max by 2027.
> 
> Now that point is from where IAF can get this... U are saying second MRCA of F18/ gripen.. This is in addition to a rafale prod line in India.
> Also u are saying being and gripen will be cheaper than rafale...
> 
> Mate, few things u have missed in this calculation
> 1. A new type of plane in MII means investment of few billion dollars to make it.. I read somewhere in this forum that boieng asked for minimum order of 200 planes to make it economical viable to MII.. Or else cost of each plane will increase.
> 
> 2. Cost of base infrastructure creation... Dassult asking for 1.4 billion dollar for one base for rafale and already two bases are created in present order. In your view point of second MRCA of 126 fighters, we need creation of infrastructure on minimum 03 bases...that means an investment of 4.2 billion dollars.
> 
> 3. Cost of training/spares and logistics. 1-1.5 billion for 36 planes in rafale pricing. So what is it for new variety of 126 planes.. Training will be more. Spares may cost same even if we order more rafale.
> 
> 4. Also you were saying gripen NG is better and u also contradict that IAF won't buy single engine after 2027 while countering my argument for LCA so u think that gripen will make a production line in MII just for 126 planes and after 2027 close its line as IAF not interested.. Do you think it is financially viable.
> 
> 5. You are saying no private firm can make second prod line for LCA in 5-10 years, yet dassault/Boeing/Saab..in collaboration of pvt sector are saying they can start producing in 3yrs max. You wanna say no pvt firm can make LCA second production. Line operational in 3-4 yrs in India if given a order of 126 planes?
> 
> 6. Again you are saying IAF only wanna buy FGFA and AMCA after 2030... And still you advocating that new prod line along with rafale line, what will happen to these production lines? And is it not that this investment will get waste..
> 
> 7. Su30 and HAL line will be converted to FGFA and AMCA.. So can be utilised. More so HAL is DPSU..
> 
> To conclude, if IAF operates 12 sqn (2 old and 10 new) of rafale.. Then it needs 4 bases max. And if IAF operates 7 rafale (total 9) and 6 second MRCA.. It needs to create one more bases for rafale and three for second MRCA.. So it comes to approx 4 billion dollar extra expenditure.
> 
> Rafale flyaway cost is 83 M dollar and F18 SH is 65-70 M dollar and gripen NG will cost samabout 60-65M.
> With MII and 200+ order for rafale cost will be 10-15% cheaper as its development cost is distributed over larger order and cheaper labour .. And also the cost of production is spread over bigger order.. It comes to 75M dollar...
> If we get say rafale production line for 108 sqn and 108 from gripen/F18 the cost of establishing production line will increase the cost of these planes. And cost of rafale will also increase as the economies of scale is reduced.
> 
> And mate AMCA will start inducting after 2030-32.. And operating FGFA/AMCA in big numbers will be prohibitive in long run.. So IAF will go for max 10 sqn of FGFA and 10 sqn of AMCA and keep 30 sqn of 4.75++ Gen jets like rafale and supersukoi... Til 2045-50 or so..
> 
> The way out is same as I said again.. It's 2016 now..
> 1. Get a pvt player for second prod line for LCA and churn out minimum of 8/yr (max 16) starting 2020.. Till 2027.. We can get 56-112 odd LCA that is 03-06 sqn... After 2024-27 HAL line will produce NLCA (46). The additional LCA can be inducted by IAF is 4 sqn (80) taking the total number to 10 sqn. Rest 32 can be exported. And LCA is cheap..about 40M each...
> 
> 2. Tell dassault to establish a line of 12/24/36 or 15/30/45... If cleared by 2016 end they can start producing by 2021 Jan.. So the possible number wud be like this..
> 2021/22/23 -16*3= 48
> 2024-27-- 24* 4= 96
> So a total of 144 Rafales.....
> Out of IAF can induct 96 and can also get 18 from France taking a total induction to 108.
> 
> So total aircraft that can be inducted by IAF 108 rafale ( 6 sqn) and 80 LCA ( 4sqn). That means a total of 10 sqn by 2027..
> 
> Rest 54 (3sqn) can be inducted by IN.. What estimate I have give for rafale line is conservative one.. It can increase production a bit more also..
> 
> This calculation does not have scope for new production line for new aircraft.
> 
> In your rafale export order possible can go vey big... Like Saudi 72 and fifth trance of FrAF.. But if dassault make rafale in India..every other is not even required..bcoz IN/IAF alone can ask for about 250+ rafale..and add about 80-100 for FrAF.. These two will become priority and rest all will wait except Egypt and Qatar..dassult can increase merignac production line to 22-33 / yrs.. And after fulfilling orders for qatar+ India(54) + FrAaF(45)... After 2023 or so they can start exporting Saudi order if its placed..but the point is Rafale cost will come dwon will such big orders... And it will better for both india and France.



Very well put, there simply doesn't seem to be any need for a "second MMRCA", yes the induction of new aircraft is the largest issue going foreward as productive capacity all across the board will be strained but the costs (both start up and life cycle) simply don't support the idea for a second type. In the long run this would be a gross misallocation of resources and would cost the Indian taxypayers billions in wastage. If needed, take the pain of 2 years of delay in meeting the sanactioned strength- it' not particuarly palatable but better than the alternative. 


Hopefully, going by the figures provided by @Picdelamirand-oil I hope the production line in India is closer to a capacity of 30/year than 15- this is essential to making this work. I also think it makes a lot of sense to opt for an addtional SQN (or two) of Rafales alongside the 36 being delivered off the shelf from France, what is the harm?

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> Hopefully, going by the figures provided by @Picdelamirand-oil I hope the production line in India is closer to a capacity of 30/year than 15- this is essential to making this work. I also think it makes a lot of sense to opt for an addtional SQN (or two) of Rafales alongside the 36 being delivered off the shelf from France, what is the harm?



As long as the production in India is 3X to 4X times the off the shelf purchase, everything is fine.. The reason being that we are looking from one side of getting jets.. If you remember @Taygibay talked about skill development.. That also needs to be addressed as essentially those Skills only could help us upgrade our MIC. 
You see we all are assuming that India could do well with AMCA in house but we know in reality the difference between Tejas to a Rafale to a AMCA is a humongous leap of capability..

So whatever we come up under MII it must also go down to help us realise our AMCA dreams too.. Right from certain tech to skills to our capability of MIC to may be who knows a Kaveri Snecma Jet Engine capable of Delivering say 110 Kn+ Dry thrust..

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## Masterhunter

about pilot availability...

It's a major weakness in IAF and its not a temporaray thing as @randomradio has said... See overall shortage of officers are present in All three services (max in army).. And as Parik said it take five years to make a pilot in peace time...

Also, we may be phasing out jets but that gives more pilots, actually it gives less pilots.. See we have phased say 10 sqn of MIG 21 and we have inducted 10 sqn of Su30 ... So that sqn strength is maintained ( which most of my frens here are discussing)..
10 sqn of Mig21 has given me 200 pilots, while to run 10 sqn of su30 I need 400 pilots ( twin seater) ...so my sqn ability is reduced to 50%.. As of now IAF has 0.81 pilot:plane ratio that means 20% sqn strength is AOG due to lack of pilots..... Then there are course, adm appointments, leave etc... That is why authorised ratio is 1.25. If I go by pilot availability of 0.81 when comapring to 1.25.. It's 33% shortfall... That means 33% of my aircraft are AOG due to pilot deficiency..

Also, aircraft availability across IAF is 65% across the board max.. Which is making pilot:ratio of close to 1.

And where we are crying about reducing sqn strength and poor availablity.
Suppose, If tommorow, GoI go ahead and buy 500 jets in 10 years ... We need 500*1.25 =625 plus .0.44*570( present number of jets) = 250. A total of 875 pilots.....
From where, we will induct 875 pilots over a frame of 10 yrs ....in peace time, when the present recruitment is barely able to cope with retirement and attrition due to better opportunities in civil street. The srength of our IAF academy is limited plus it takes five years to train a pilot as said by Parik. 

So, the problem runs deeper than we discuss...
As again I am saying IAF top brass never comment on this aspect of their combat sqn limitation instead they just harp on no of sqn.. No relation/talk on pilots shortage, how many planes in sqn ... Etc etc..

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Taygibay

As an after thought, what if increase our pilot:plane ratio to 1.25 to 1.75.. (USA has 2) it will definitely increase our combat potential of combat sqn in war without actually increasing the number.. And in war, its pilot fatigue which is more limting factor than the plane..
What will be training cost of increasing coat vis a vis increasing sqn numbers ..
@Picdelamirand-oil

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## halloweene

just one point : F3 is a standard; O4t is fourth tranche of production...

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## randomradio

Masterhunter said:


> Mate, few things u have missed in this calculation
> 1. A new type of plane in MII means investment of few billion dollars to make it.. I read somewhere in this forum that boieng asked for minimum order of 200 planes to make it economical viable to MII.. Or else cost of each plane will increase.
> 
> 2. Cost of base infrastructure creation... Dassult asking for 1.4 billion dollar for one base for rafale and already two bases are created in present order. In your view point of second MRCA of 126 fighters, we need creation of infrastructure on minimum 03 bases...that means an investment of 4.2 billion dollars.
> 
> 3. Cost of training/spares and logistics. 1-1.5 billion for 36 planes in rafale pricing. So what is it for new variety of 126 planes.. Training will be more. Spares may cost same even if we order more rafale.



The overall costs will be lower in comparison. Cost of infrastructure creation for Rafale is 1.4B for a base. It could be 1B for SH. Regardless, base infrastructure has to be built.

If you have 16 bases and you want to activate 8 bases each for Rafale and second MMRCA, then cost of infrastructure for each base will be 1.4*16B if you choose only Rafale. It could be much lesser if it was Gripen NG.

IAF is splitting the order because they can't afford a Rafale only force. Nothing more.



> 4. Also you were saying gripen NG is better and u also contradict that IAF won't buy single engine after 2027 while countering my argument for LCA so u think that gripen will make a production line in MII just for 126 planes and after 2027 close its line as IAF not interested.. Do you think it is financially viable.



Yes, at 20 a year from 2021 onwards. It will take 6 years.



> 5. You are saying no private firm can make second prod line for LCA in 5-10 years, yet dassault/Boeing/Saab..in collaboration of pvt sector are saying they can start producing in 3yrs max. You wanna say no pvt firm can make LCA second production. Line operational in 3-4 yrs in India if given a order of 126 planes?



Partnership with Dassault/Saab etc is very different from building a production line from scratch. Such companies don't exist in India today. As a matter of fact, companies like TASL and Dynamatic are very happy with just being recognized as Tier 1 suppliers. Those are subcontractors.



> 6. Again you are saying IAF only wanna buy FGFA and AMCA after 2030... And still you advocating that new prod line along with rafale line, what will happen to these production lines? And is it not that this investment will get waste..



The Indian company that will produce say Gripen can move to producing AMCA. Or the foreign company can produce civilian aircraft on the same line.

Dassault plans to manufacture their civilian jets on the same line for the Indian market after Rafale production is done. In case IAF likes FCAS, Dassault can produce that also.



> To conclude, if IAF operates 12 sqn (2 old and 10 new) of rafale.. Then it needs 4 bases max. And if IAF operates 7 rafale (total 9) and 6 second MRCA.. It needs to create one more bases for rafale and three for second MRCA.. So it comes to approx 4 billion dollar extra expenditure.



If IAF orders 200 Rafales, the bases will increase to a lot more than just 4. I think Su-30 operates from more than a dozen bases in total. All bases will eventually hold a few Rafales, peppered all across the country. For example, the Bareilly squadrons are deputed to Kalaikunda for excursions to the A&N Islands. Similarly there are bases in A&N and even South India that have equipment that can handle MKIs at a short notice.

Aircraft with sufficient numbers are constantly rotated to different bases. And important aircraft like MKI and Rafale in the future will have minimum amount of infrastructure on all the important bases.



> Rafale flyaway cost is 83 M dollar and F18 SH is 65-70 M dollar and gripen NG will cost samabout 60-65M.
> With MII and 200+ order for rafale cost will be 10-15% cheaper as its development cost is distributed over larger order and cheaper labour .. And also the cost of production is spread over bigger order.. It comes to 75M dollar...



After a certain number of units, costs won't get cheaper. It will simply become uniform and stable.



> If we get say rafale production line for 108 sqn and 108 from gripen/F18 the cost of establishing production line will increase the cost of these planes. And cost of rafale will also increase as the economies of scale is reduced.



Rafale production won't be so less. Gripen production will handle exports also.



> And mate AMCA will start inducting after 2030-32.. And operating FGFA/AMCA in big numbers will be prohibitive in long run.. So IAF will go for max 10 sqn of FGFA and 10 sqn of AMCA and keep 30 sqn of 4.75++ Gen jets like rafale and supersukoi... Til 2045-50 or so..



AMCA and FGFA will outnumber all our current jets.

If you consider the 2040s. We won't have Su-30 and LCA, both will be in the process of phasing out like Mig-21s today. We will have about 5 or 6 squadrons of Rafale and Gripen each, probably finishing fleetwide MLUs. The rest will be FGFA and AMCA in different variants, Mk1, Mk2 etc.



> In your rafale export order possible can go vey big... Like Saudi 72 and fifth trance of FrAF.. But if dassault make rafale in India..every other is not even required..bcoz IN/IAF alone can ask for about 250+ rafale..and add about 80-100 for FrAF.. These two will become priority and rest all will wait except Egypt and Qatar..dassult can increase merignac production line to 22-33 / yrs.. And after fulfilling orders for qatar+ India(54) + FrAaF(45)... After 2023 or so they can start exporting Saudi order if its placed..but the point is Rafale cost will come dwon will such big orders... And it will better for both india and France.



The French Rafale line will continue functioning into the 2030s. ADLA/MN will only buy Rafales from France. At best you can say the Indian line can be expanded to cater to Indian forces as well as exports in the long run while the French line will go back to producing 11 Rafales a year for ADLA/MN.

===================
Think of it this way. IAF wants 300 Rafales. But they can't have 300 Rafales in 10 years because they can't afford it. So they have to split it into 150 Rafales and 150 Gripens in order to reduce the procurement bill. That's what's happening. If it turns out that inducting extra Gripens is more expensive than making more Rafales, then it is obvious what MoD will do. This is MoD's decision, not IAF's.

The dark horse is LSA.

You are forgetting that exports will play a major part. This will bring India a lot of foreign exchange and make us a net exporter of defence equipment for the next 15 years.


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## Abingdonboy

Masterhunter said:


> So, the problem runs deeper than we discuss...
> As again I am saying IAF top brass never comment on this aspect of their combat sqn limitation instead they just harp on no of sqn.. No relation/talk on pilots shortage, how many planes in sqn ... Etc etc..


Agreed, which is why I have made a point on this but I can see the signs of the issue being rectified, since 2014 the IAF has been increasing pilot batch sizes and have continued to do so. With a huge AJT fleet and an adequate BTT fleet (to be supplimented in the future) the previous restrictions on capacity have been addressed and now it is the incubation period. As pointed out, it takes a long time to induct new pilots so it won't be an overnight fix but it is in the process of being sorted. Come 2020 this shouldn't be a problem and the ratio will be within guidlines.



randomradio said:


> The dark horse is LSA.


I don't see how sir. We are talking about the very near future (the next 15 years), there is no way the LSA can enter service before 2028 and won't be in large numbers before 2031- it will fail to meet any if the critical issues faced today.


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## PARIKRAMA

Masterhunter said:


> As an after thought, what if increase our pilot:plane ratio to 1.25 to 1.75.. (USA has 2) it will definitely increase our combat potential of combat sqn in war without actually increasing the number.. And in war, its pilot fatigue which is more limting factor than the plane..



Its very much possible.. I would point out here something which most folks (at least i myself) did not knew before
An Avg Tier 2 or below Engineer (leave NITs and IITs) get say an avg Rs 21K per Month salary (IT companies)
An avg Tier 2 B-school graduate gets say an avg Rs 35K pm salary

An IAF pilot gets







A flying officer gets Rs 9.5 Lacs or Rs 0.95 Mn + benefits+ other emoluments.... 

Pay and Allowances-Career Air Force

On top Benefits are here
Benefits-Career Air Force

It shows how badly we have not marketed our services which gives one of the best pay in the market for any young one..

Its a shame that most people including myself did not know how well they are compensated..

If a deeper brand building and awareness campaign is initiated such issues can be surely addressed..

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> So they have to split it into 150 Rafales and 150 Gripens in order to reduce the procurement bill. That's what's happening. If it turns out that inducting extra Gripens is more expensive than making more Rafales, then it is obvious what MoD will do. This is MoD's decision, not IAF's.


There are a lot of variables and areas of doubt but one thing is clear- the Gripen will NEVER see Indian service in any capacity, I can assure you of that sir.

Think about it politcally, the GoI is coming under fire for inducting the Rafale at the cost of the LCA (a stupid analysis but it gets some traction), there is no way any GoI could justify the induction of a direct LCA competitor- no way at all. It would be political suicide- whoever is in oppostion will rip the incumbents to shreds over it.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

halloweene said:


> just one point : F3 is a standard; O4t is fourth tranche of production...


So now I need your point of view on F3R and F3R2


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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Its very much possible.. I would point out here something which most folks (at least i myself) did not knew before
> An Avg Tier 2 or below Engineer (leave NITs and IITs) get say an avg Rs 21K per Month salary (IT companies)
> An avg Tier 2 B-school graduate gets say an avg Rs 35K pm salary
> 
> An IAF pilot gets
> 
> View attachment 294172
> 
> 
> A flying officer gets Rs 9.5 Lacs or Rs 0.95 Mn + benefits+ other emoluments....
> 
> Pay and Allowances-Career Air Force
> 
> On top Benefits are here
> Benefits-Career Air Force
> 
> It shows how badly we have not marketed our services which gives one of the best pay in the market for any young one..
> 
> Its a shame that most people including myself did not know how well they are compensated..
> 
> If a deeper brand building and awareness campaign is initiated such issues can be surely addressed..


Bro, IMO this is the wrong analysis. The pilot shortage is VERY different to the general officer shortage in the rest of the armed forces.

The nature of the pilot shortage is very specific in nature and the result of technical issues i.e a lack of capacity to train pilots because of a lack of trainers in the past decade. As I have said, this has only very recently been addressed by the induction of hundreds of trainers. Remember 4-5 years ago when the Deepaks were grounded and the aged Kirans were going that way too, the IAF had intentionally frozen pilot inductions and actively reduced flying hours on the Kiran and MiG-21 FL (OCU). 

Now the flood gates are open but it will take time for the increased capacity to filter through to the fighter stream as fighter training is a very long process in the IAF. And now even women are being allowed to enter the fighter stream that will further increase pilot numbers. 


In short, it was never a supply side issue (as it is with the rest of the officer shortage) but a demand side issue, the demand side issue has now largely been addressed.

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> Bro, IMO this is the wrong analysis. The pilot shortage is VERY different to the general officer shortage in the rest of the armed forces.
> 
> The nature of the pilot shortage is very specific in nature and the result of technical issues i.e a lack of capacity to train pilots because of a lack of trainers in the past decade. As I have said, this has only very recently been addressed by the induction of hundreds of trainers. Remember 4-5 years ago when the Deepaks were grounded and the aged Kirans were going that way too, the IAF had intentionally frozen pilot inductions and actively reduced flying hours on the Kiran and MiG-21 FL (OCU).
> 
> Now the flood gates are open but it will take time for the increased capacity to filter through to the fighter stream as fighter training is a very long process in the IAF. And now even women are being allowed to enter the fighter stream that will further increase pilot numbers.
> 
> 
> In short, it was never a supply side issue (as it is with the rest of the officer shortage) but a demand side issue, the demand side issue has now largely been addressed.



Yes you are correct about trainer side issues.. So supply side was abundant but demand side did not have enough capabilities to absorb such adequate supply..

Hope we dont repeat our past mistakes again...

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## randomradio

Masterhunter said:


> It's a major weakness in IAF and its not a temporaray thing as @randomradio has said... See overall shortage of officers are present in All three services (max in army).. And as Parik said it take five years to make a pilot in peace time...



The shortage in IAF is due to training and attrition, not recruitment.



> Also, we may be phasing out jets but that gives more pilots, actually it gives less pilots.. See we have phased say 10 sqn of MIG 21 and we have inducted 10 sqn of Su30 ... So that sqn strength is maintained ( which most of my frens here are discussing)..
> 10 sqn of Mig21 has given me 200 pilots, while to run 10 sqn of su30 I need 400 pilots ( twin seater) ...so my sqn ability is reduced to 50%..



IAF has phased out much more than just 10 squadrons of Mig-21. Throughout the last decade, we had hundreds of Mig-21s, 23s, 27s and Jaguars that were phased out. I think we had 400 Mig-21s at the time. We had more than 100 Mig-23s, 200 Mig-27s and 200 Jaguars. Now 2/3rds are gone and in the meantime we have only inducted 200 odd MKIs.



> From where, we will induct 875 pilots over a frame of 10 yrs



Women are being introduced in the force. So the IAF's choice menu has increased by at least 20% if not 30%.

Choice in an IAF career will pick up once graduates realize they will be flying brand new planes and not get thrust into decrepit old planes that will fall apart if you sneeze.



Abingdonboy said:


> I don't see how sir. We are talking about the very near future (the next 15 years), there is no way the LSA can enter service before 2028 and won't be in large numbers before 2031- it will fail to meet any if the critical issues faced today.



According to its creator, the aircraft is very simple to build and flight testing will be complete in just 3 years after go ahead. Production can be cranked up to 54 jets a year. It is based on HF-24 Marut, so most of the testing is already complete.

The last known news is the Israelis have shown interest.



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> So now I need your point of view on F3R and F3R2



We all do.

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## Masterhunter

PARIKRAMA said:


> Its very much possible.. I would point out here something which most folks (at least i myself) did not knew before
> An Avg Tier 2 or below Engineer (leave NITs and IITs) get say an avg Rs 21K per Month salary (IT companies)
> An avg Tier 2 B-school graduate gets say an avg Rs 35K pm salary
> 
> An IAF pilot gets
> 
> View attachment 294172
> 
> 
> A flying officer gets Rs 9.5 Lacs or Rs 0.95 Mn + benefits+ other emoluments....
> 
> 
> It shows how badly we have not marketed our services which gives one of the best pay in the market for any young one..
> 
> Its a shame that most people including myself did not know how well they are compensated..
> 
> If a deeper brand building and awareness campaign is initiated such issues can be surely addressed..



Yes.... That is the beauty of it... That most of the people in India look at this figure with the outlook u have said... But it not so rosy..
The actual CTC for any defence officer is 1.5 times of its gross salary... So what is you have shown, the actual benefit goes upto 1.5 times( medical, accommodation, LTC etc. Similar to a govt job).
But the mistake u have done is comparing it with an IT graduate. Compare it with pilots for pilots in civil airlines and engineers to engineers in govt service.

Yes it's true the military pay very well till 10 yrs but then it becomes less when compared to same profession in civil street... Say an Indigo pilot will earn more than an IAF pilot and will face less hardships than IAF postings. Family life is affected in defence forces.
And when u compare it with other govt jobs like an engineer in navy/airforce and an civil engineer in BHEL/railways, they earn almost same but life is much easier than defence....
That is why attrition is higher. And Indian armed forces has spoiled their own progress when they refused NFU given to them by VI pay commission. Now inter services issues have come up like BSF and army over seniority due to NFU in BSF. Also the VII CPC is widening the rift... Say siachina allowance for an officer is capped at 31500 while for an IAS officer its 30% of basic at Leh/guwahati...making it 54K-72K... 

This is all at overall factor which is discouraging bright minds to take mantle at officer cadre... There is no dearth of manpower...at lvl of jawans.

Also... Yes, there is no dearth of supply due to eligible manpower but airforce academy should be able to train that many officers as we need and training and fighter conversion training...
@randomradio ... Attrition is bigger problem man... U are losing trained manpower... To cover-up losses in number of pilots we need to reduce attrition and increase intake... Only increase intake won't help. Losing a trained pilot to attrition is a bigger loss... And this happen due to less paycheck than civil street after 10-15 yrs in service and steep pyramidal structure of promotions. 
And yes we lost a lot of pilots... And I am talking now in future... Present availability is at 0.81 with 35 sqn ... U were advocating increasing it upto 42 in 10 years ... That is 140 more planes ... Few of them will be twin seater.. And with 1.25 ratio I can safely assume we need 250 + pilots for new acquisitions.. And to replace old planes with old pilots we still need increase availability of these pilots from 0.81 to 1.25...

It's as difficult for IAF as building up sqn numbers...may be more..from where I see it..

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## PARIKRAMA

TejpalD said:


> "If India wants to jump start an aerospace economy, do you want to do that with Dassault -- that's about a $5 billion company -- or do you want to do that with Boeing, which is a $97 billion aerospace company?" Jeff Kohler, vice president of global sales for Boeing's defense unit, said in an interview on Monday in Singapore.



I read that in my newsroom ticker.. Seems Boeing wants to flaunt its Networth as the most credible thing for bagging MII venture for F18s..

Interestingly, way back Dr Vijay Mallaya had a humongous networth too when he started Kingfisher airline.. He was the liquor baron and was living a life in the fast lane.. The whole country was flying in Kingfisher and DGCA granted a red carpet welcome to him..

Fast forward today its a USD 1 Bn plus Non Performing Asset for our Banks.. Even after selling lots of personal assets which Dr Mallaya holds and many that cant be attached owing to him not legally owning them, the case is a eye opener for any banking person in terms of write offs and trusting name lending based on brand+ networth....

Not saying Boeing will go Kingfisher way.. But arrogance shown in showing USD 97Bn vs USD 5Bn makes me remember Kingfisher like situation.. Perhaps i am also reading despondency here..

Edit a good read abt Kingfisher position as of 2015
Of Rs 7,000 crore lent to Kingfisher, banks can now recover just Rs 6 crore | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

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## halloweene

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> So now I need your point of view on F3R and F3R2


ATM it is F3.4'

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## nang2

Still not yet signed? What is the latest news?


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## randomradio

TejpalD said:


> "If India wants to jump start an aerospace economy, do you want to do that with Dassault -- that's about a $5 billion company -- or do you want to do that with Boeing, which is a $97 billion aerospace company?" Jeff Kohler, vice president of global sales for Boeing's defense unit, said in an interview on Monday in Singapore.



True. But their primary military customer has always not chosen their aircraft.

And Boeing being bigger means Indian companies will have to deal with Boeing from a position of weakness.

And the US govt always gets in the way, unlike the French govt.

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## Abingdonboy

TejpalD said:


> "If India wants to jump start an aerospace economy, do you want to do that with Dassault -- that's about a $5 billion company -- or do you want to do that with Boeing, which is a $97 billion aerospace company?" Jeff Kohler, vice president of global sales for Boeing's defense unit, said in an interview on Monday in Singapore.


What a dumb thing to have said- no discussion of the merit of their offer but their market capitalization somehow makes Boeing's product/offer more attractive to India? It's needlessly dismissive of both Dassualt and India and entirely ignores the fact that their product was found to be insufficent for the IAF's needs the first time around.

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## randomradio

Masterhunter said:


> @randomradio ... Attrition is bigger problem man... U are losing trained manpower... To cover-up losses in number of pilots we need to reduce attrition and increase intake... Only increase intake won't help. Losing a trained pilot to attrition is a bigger loss... And this happen due to less paycheck than civil street after 10-15 yrs in service and steep pyramidal structure of promotions.
> And yes we lost a lot of pilots... And I am talking now in future... Present availability is at 0.81 with 35 sqn ... U were advocating increasing it upto 42 in 10 years ... That is 140 more planes ... Few of them will be twin seater.. And with 1.25 ratio I can safely assume we need 250 + pilots for new acquisitions.. And to replace old planes with old pilots we still need increase availability of these pilots from 0.81 to 1.25...
> 
> It's as difficult for IAF as building up sqn numbers...may be more..from where I see it..



Civilian pilots work like donkeys. Military pilots are much more relaxed. The reason for attrition is in civilian aircraft you just sit on your seat and monitor your aircraft, the aircraft itself flies by itself. Military aircraft that we are using today are difficult to fly, and also dangerous. So pilots make that switch.

Now that we are modernizing, aircraft are getting easier to fly. In a few years, military pilots will have the same ease of flying and with lesser hours of work. And even the accident rates will eventually match airlines.

Once a pilot achieves 20 years of service, IAF is more than happy to get rid of him through VRS instead of paying many times more through pensions. So everybody's happy.


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> What a dumb thing to have said- no discussion of the merit of their offer but their market capitalization somehow makes Boeing's product/offer more attractive to India? It's needlessly dismissive of both Dassualt and India and entirely ignores the fact that their product was found to be insufficent for the IAF's needs the first time around.



To add to my previous post about Boeing, they lost the LRS-B contract also. And their SH line is coming to a close in the US.



TejpalD said:


> That's a massive misconception.
> 
> a) some civilian pilots work like donkeys. My uncle (aunty's husband) flies for British Airways 777 Long Haul and he makes 4 flights a month and that is that. He's away about 11-13 days a month (exc. days he leaves/returns).



Your uncle is probably lucky.

UK
Airline pilots 'buckling under unacceptable pressures' - BBC News

India
High court to hear PIL on overworked AI pilots - Times of India

UAE
Pilot Workload at Emirates Under Question - WSJ

US
Airline Fined $1.3M For Overworked Pilots - CBS News



> b) the aircraft doesn't fly itself. That is nonsense. Autopilot works on the PF's command. There is constant vigilance on the flight deck and I'd say the risk is far higher with a civilian jet (can be responsible for 500+ lives) than in a fighter jet (responsible for 1).



The autopilot does all the work. I have pilot friends and they have explained everything that they do.

They set the destination and flight route, taxi, take off, and then cross their hands and sit there until something happens. Humans are needed for communication and take-off/landing. In some instances, they are asked to fly in circles due to high traffic, that's probably the most excitement they get since they need to keep their ears open for that radio chatter from the ATC. So yes, there is constant vigilance, but the plane or ATC tells you when something's wrong. So you are just chatting with your crew most of the times. How I banged this new air hostess. That brothel is better than this brothel. Seriously.

The risk is why the airlines are relying more and more on automation. Humans are the ones who make mistakes.

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## randomradio

TejpalD said:


> Dude...read up on what a commercial pilot actually does and don't go off hearsay.



Bro, I'm comparing a civilian pilot with a military pilot. The civilian pilot literally does nothing. Military pilots sit in the briefing room for hours at a time and then fly for 30 minutes. There is too much of a difference even though the military pilot flies 4-5 times lesser every year.

Civilian pilots are more exhausted though. The flying part is easy, any pilot will tell you that, but the BS you have to deal with when you are on the ground makes it much harder. So yeah, this is not just hearsay.

What my friend said was golden. "We monitor the entire flight, physical flying is only for a fraction of the actual flight time." They have to land and take off manually for now, but even that will eventually be gone in the future. The landing and take off is what they actually call flying.

Of course, he was flying the latest Airbus, not the older aircraft which still require more physical handling.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> They set the destination and flight route, taxi, take off, and then cross their hands and sit there until something happens



Partly correct as most civilian planes in mid sized jets follow that routine.. Like Indigo operating A320s.. They are basically told to handle input destination, flight path clearance in system and ticks on paper, the route planner, the weather forecase on paper and on system, taxi, takeoff and put the flight right after takeoff and landing gear withdrawl to Auto Pilot.. The preset altitude/route/flight path see the jet go through the motion..

The logic used by Indigo is Auto Pilot lets your system first handle the stuff "smoothly" and secondly it goes to best efficiency cruising speed in a better fashion allowing fuel saving by a good margin..

Its only in bad weathers and air pockets alerts when the pilots actually comes in and does some stuff or when near by ATC talks about change in flight route or editing the altitude part..

Again the landing part and round round story near busy airport and communication to ATCs sees them go through limited action...

The same cannot be said for a bigger jets with longer routes passing through multiple countries where such course corrections are more frequent... But still almost most of the stuff is very much automated..

The human element comes in mostly via the beeps, warnings and frequent information updates which needs to be monitored for certain necessary actionables..


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## Armani

So let's have a rundown of the entire estimated fighter aircraft production within foreseeable future,

*Sukhoi/HAL FGFA* According to latest reports, the IAF would be buying around 60 jets as the first batch, earlier it was thought that first order will be for 144 aircraft. But it seems they want their more slices in their pizza. So far, the maximum stated requirement for the FGFA is 214. This would grow after the MKIs are retired and the path ahead becomes clearer.

*Su-30MKI *The confirmed order as of today is for 272 jets, but recent reports are clearly hinting at an additional 40, taking the figure to 312. There has always been a strong statement from analyst Sengupta (I assume you all know him much) that MKI numbers will eventually reach 350. If HAL produces MKI at a rate of 12/year, and if we assume we currently have close to 230 of the Flankers already produced, it could take another 10 years (2026) to reach the 350 mark. It seems likely now that MKI production in India might actually happen alongside FGFA production.

A rate of 16/year (currently estimated max capacity) would see us having 350 jets by around 2024.

But there's a high likelihood that the first Super-MKI batch (about 40 jets) could come directly from Irkutsk, and upgradation of the rest of the fleet happens in India later. In which case we could have them all within 2022 or even by late 2020 if the 16/year capacity is used from now on. It's very likely indeed that these 40 jets could be the tranche that bridges the gap between the 312 and the 350 marks. In this case, the above mentioned possibility of FGFA & MKI production at the same time will not happen. This is the desirable approach.

*Rafale* The current deal calls for between 36 and 54 jets to be purchased off the shelf, separate from the Make in India component of the deal. The MII could see a further production of ~150 jets for Air Force (based on original 189 requirement) and atleast ~70 for the Navy for the first-of-class nuclear carrier. That's close to 250 right there.

++ The carrier gambit ++
It's as yet unclear whether we'll go for a 2nd Vikrant-class CV or not. If we do, the foreseeable composition (based on the 5-6 carrier requirement) would be 2 Vikrants, 2 Vishal CVNs and 1 Vikramaditya. By the time the 2nd CVN's keel is laid, the Vikram will start showing it's age. So a 3rd CVN is a given to replace it.

In hindsight, I always believed a 2nd Vikrant could keep the yards tied up with older technology for a much longer period. But keeping the time it could take to actually iron out the design, EMALS deal, reactor development etc. in mind, a second, improved Project-71 carrier (_*Gessler*_ calls it Project-71A) is the way to go if you don't want to lose the skilled workforce.

Coming to the aircraft, an N-AMCA is an absolute future necessity. Originally, with the IAF investing in FGFA, a naval version was a possibility but day by day it's relevance to a carrier-role is becoming fainter. I don't think IN will even consider it. Let's give the N-AMCA till 2026 to appear in a workable form, juicing together all the tech & know-how acquired from FGFA, Rafale and Tejas production. But until then we'll need Rafale-Ms in sufficient quantity, their trump card will be that they can operate from any of IN's 3 carrier-classes (Vishal, Vikrant, Vikram) without much (if any) modification. Although operationally they would be limited to Vishaal (_*Gessler *_calls it Project-73(N) or simply Project-73) and the P-71A.

The P-73 is estimated to have a capacity of 3 fighter squadrons onboard, at 16/sqd we'll need 48 jets and at 18/sqd we'll need 54 for the carrier alone. Atleast 10-15 will be needed for deployment on shore-bases, and replacements. That's why I thought even a minimum Naval Rafale requirement could be closer to 70 for the first P-73 CVN.
++

*Tejas LCA* Let's just think that the 20 Mk-1 plus 106 Mk-1A plan materializes. That's 126 jets in the light category, it could happen sooner or later (if IAF decides to shave off Mk-1A numbers in favor of Mk-2). Realistically, we'll need around 200 LCAs for the Air Force alone. On the other hand, Navy will only buy the Mk-2 NLCA. About 40-46 of them for operating alongside MiG-29K on P-71 and maybe Vikram also (unlikely, but possible) as well as shore-based duties.

*Second MRCA* Could be a foreign jet, some new version of Tejas (!) or the LSA proposed by an ex-IN Harrier pilot that's currently under negotiation with IAI for a joint-development contract. If the LSA materializes, it would impress both IN and IAF and we could even see the IN wanting to derive the AMCA from the technologies introduced in this bird. Let's see what the French can offer for this once Rafale is set on it's track. Ideally, we should have the Russians with their FGFA, and pool together all of our agencies in conjunction with all available tech-providers (European, Israeli agencies) to build the LSA.

If you ask me, I'd say the AMCA would be better being made as a bigger, twin-engine version of the LSA. Oh, and we're yet to see exactly what Dedira would bring to Rafale.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> Military pilots sit in the briefing room for hours at a time and then fly for 30 minutes. There is too much of a difference even though the military pilot flies 4-5 times lesser every year.
> 
> Civilian pilots are more exhausted though.



True a civilian pilot monitoring multiple information venues take a toll owing to long flights or duty time.. But as you rightly said their briefing and debriefing is literally just signing few pages.

OTOH military pilots briefing room is a devil in your back situation as that itself keeps your mind super busy and tires you down there.. Then the new long range flights with mission duties over aspects like flying 2000 km into and then coming back and say mid air refueling literally tires the pilot like a living hell.. The mission time on air now touches easily 120 mins plus for such long distance case.. and then the debriefing saga begins..

Even if mission time on air is say just 45 mins, you see few bogies, start the action and see them tailing you, the pressure, the situation, the work and effect of Gs for evading takes torturous toll on bodies..

What a civilian pilot goes through in 10 hours, a military pilot goes through that whole cycle in fraction of that timeline and in a bad day in just minutes...

The risk of 500 people is huge no doubt and airlines do insure and pay hefty sums for a life lost.. The military jet fighter in fact risk is similarly in epic proportion.. The lost plane is one thing, falling into enemy territory another..

Both sides risk cannot be equated but when quantified in simple terms one is brand and financial (civilian), the other is financial, geopolitical and military power (fighter jets)

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## PARIKRAMA

++++
Since some time has passed and we have not seen any new pictures so few now

From Singapore airshow
Credit to Alpha Rafale















Thats a french Pilot looking at RMAF Su30MKM during Singapore Airshow







Some pics from Solo display before show opening and some action



















Thats the picture which will soon be normal for us in multiple bases..

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## PARIKRAMA

++
And a catchy one from Stephane Fort with a caption "Hi ! Rafale Interception"

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## randomradio

Armani said:


> It seems likely now that MKI production in India might actually happen alongside FGFA production.



No, MKI production will end in 2019. The extra orders, if any, will be CKDs from Russia. They will be assembled, tested and delivered to IAF.



> But there's a high likelihood that the first Super-MKI batch (about 40 jets) could come directly from Irkutsk, and upgradation of the rest of the fleet happens in India later.



I think the first 6 aircraft will be upgraded in Russia. The rest will happen in India. But that's still many years away now.

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## Armani

PARIKRAMA said:


> Thats the picture which will soon be normal for us in multiple bases..



Sure, sure...











Bless Shiv Aroor for having clicked these pictures during Garuda-V exercise with AdlA. Curse him for not having done so at higher resolutions.

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## PARIKRAMA

Armani said:


> Sure, sure...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bless Shiv Aroor for having clicked these pictures during Garuda-V exercise with AdlA. Curse him for not having done so at higher resolutions.


I for a long time thought they were CGI 

May be I was wrong..


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## halloweene

apparently, "TAO" alias cpt Planche last show in Singapore was breathtaking.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Bruno Revellin Falcoz: 30' 49"




> _*Bien sur on est dans des domaines un peu confidentiel, mais disons que la signature vue par l'avant d'un Rafale, c'est la signature d'un moineau.*_



Translation

*Of course it is in areas somewhat confidential, but we can say that the front view signature of a Rafale is the signing of a sparrow.*





*CV Bruno Revellin Falcoz*

Appointed Director, Deputy General Technical Director in April 1981, he directed the aircraft new military and civil design teams - including the* ACX / Rafale*
Appointed Chief Technical 1 May 1982 he leads all design teams and development programs FALCON different civilian and military (mainly with *the Rafale* and developments Family MIRAGE 2000) and spatial (HERMES).
Appointed *Vice President* for Technical Affairs, Research and Cooperation in January 1987; his previous responsibilities are added the flight test and the Directorate of Flight Safety.
He was appointed managing director of GIE Rafale International.
Appointed Deputy CEO in April 2000, it continues to ensure coordination among other technical programs and in particular the new Falcon 7X.

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## Taygibay

Masterhunter said:


> So, the problem runs deeper than we discuss...
> As again I am saying IAF top brass never comment on this aspect of their combat sqn limitation instead they just harp on no of sqn.. No relation/talk on pilots shortage, how many planes in sqn ... Etc etc..



A suggestion :
the IAF brass may have stopped trying to plan pilots' numbers according to the number of planes ...
because the vagaries of procurement have long since dissociated the two?

When you don't use a learned ability long enough, it eventually goes away.

Your ratio comment that follows makes perfect sense as planes fly more hours than pilots.
That is the case in the Armée de l'Air and many others. Pilot 180h or less. Plane 200+.
Both per year. And with inverse reasonings : the pilot is undertrained below 180 hours / year
but the unitary plane must fly a certain amount for ownership of it to make economic sense.

Food for thought, Tay.

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## halloweene

Taygibay said:


> A suggestion :
> the IAF brass may have stopped trying to plan pilots' numbers according to the number of planes ...
> because the vagaries of procurement have long since dissociated the two?
> 
> When you don't use a learned ability long enough, it eventually goes away.
> 
> Your ratio comment that follows makes perfect sense as planes fly more hours than pilots.
> That is the case in the Armée de l'Air and many others. Pilot 180h or less. Plane 200+.
> Both per year. And with inverse reasonings : the pilot is undertrained below 180 hours / year
> but the unitary plane must fly a certain amount for ownership of it to make economic sense.
> 
> Food for thought, Tay.


Tell th full truth? DA i afraid indian production might cost 3 times as french production.

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> A suggestion :
> the IAF brass may have stopped trying to plan pilots' numbers according to the number of planes ...
> because the vagaries of procurement have long since dissociated the two?
> 
> When you don't use a learned ability long enough, it eventually goes away.
> 
> Your ratio comment that follows makes perfect sense as planes fly more hours than pilots.
> That is the case in the Armée de l'Air and many others. Pilot 180h or less. Plane 200+.
> Both per year. And with inverse reasonings : the pilot is undertrained below 180 hours / year
> but the unitary plane must fly a certain amount for ownership of it to make economic sense.
> 
> Food for thought, Tay.



In the IAF:
Su-30 pilots fly 250+ hours a year. Mig-29 pilots fly 180 hours a year. M-2000 pilots fly 140-160 hours a year.

But the aircraft themselves fly much lesser.



halloweene said:


> Tell th full truth? DA i afraid indian production might cost 3 times as french production.



Then Make in India for Rafale will fail.


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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> I
> 
> 
> Then Make in India for Rafale will fail.


Agreed, the point of MII is to have comparable costs to off the shelf Rafales- if not cheaper. 3 times as much imples $300 million per Rafale- no way is that going to work.


@PARIKRAMA game over if this is the case.


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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> In the IAF:
> Su-30 pilots fly 250+ hours a year. Mig-29 pilots fly 180 hours a year. M-2000 pilots fly 140-160 hours a year.
> 
> But the aircraft themselves fly much lesser.



In that case, your earlier assumption of the ratio being a lesser problem would be valid.
However inverting that ratio would solve your problem which explains the GoI's availability clause in the Raffy deal!

QED, Tay.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio said:


> But the aircraft themselves fly much lesser.


Why?
There is two explanation possible:

There is too Much plane compare to pilot: So IAF have to ask for more pilot instead of asking for more plane
The availability of plane is too low: Pilot cannot fly the minimum requested to maintain their qualifications and leave, the total amont of pilot remaining fit with the total flying hours done.
I think the first possibility is not likely.

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## Taygibay

And I'll squarely root for the second ---» [ ]

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## Picdelamirand-oil

halloweene said:


> Tell th full truth? DA i afraid indian production might cost 3 times as french production.


What happen for the MMRCA?
The MMRCA clause required to take HAL as integrator, so HAL could not commit on his price because he did not know the files.
So, DA and its subcontractors are committed to supply cost and hours of labor that India has valued with the HAL hourly rates.
So, HAL was not engaged and a position of strength, and had quietly tripled the number of hours, bringing the project out of budget.

It's a low part of total cost, but after that the price on which Rafale was declare L1 was not the price that engage Dassault. No other solution than to cancel MMRCA.

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Why?
> There is two explanation possible:
> 
> There is too Much plane compare to pilot: So IAF have to ask for more pilot instead of asking for more plane
> The availability of plane is too low: Pilot cannot fly the minimum requested to maintain their qualifications and leave, the total amont of pilot remaining fit with the total flying hours done.
> I think the first possibility is not likely.



It's the first one. We have had major shortages in basic and intermediate/advanced trainers. So not enough pilots are trained ever year.

From articles I cannot post-


> The first stage is now being conducted on newly-acquired Swiss propeller-driven Pilatus PC-7 basic trainer aircraft (BTA), which can undertake instrument, tactical and night-flying as well as some aerobatics. The Pilatus aircraft were an emergency purchase after IAF training schedule went haywire following the grounding of the entire fleet of the 114 old piston-engine HPT-32 aircraft -- which had long served as the BTA -- after a crash killed the pilot in August 2009.
> The intermediate stage is currently undertaken on the equally obsolete Kiran aircraft, whose operational life has been repeatedly extended due to the absence of the Sitara IJT. But the Kirans, in gradually reducing numbers, can be used till 2017-18 at the most.
> The final stage, where the pilots are taught the intricacies of combat fighter flying including air-to-ground bombing, is conducted on British Hawk advanced jet trainers (AJTs). Earlier, the cadets were forced to graduate directly to the highly-demanding MiG-21s after flying sub-sonic aircraft like HPT-32 and Kirans.
> The IAF may now have to restrict its fighter training to two stages, first on Pilatus and then the Hawk AJTs. Incidentally, almost 40% of the 1,100 crashes recorded by IAF since 1970 have been attributed to ``human error (air crew)''. "Technical defects" is the other equally big reason for the crashes.



The problem is worse than you think because we don't have enough planes and we don't have enough pilots. But the problem of pilots is being solved and will soon be solved. While problem of squadrons is yet to be solved.



halloweene said:


> Tell th full truth? DA i afraid indian production might cost 3 times as french production.





Picdelamirand-oil said:


> What happen for the MMRCA?
> The MMRCA clause required to take HAL as integrator, so HAL could not commit on his price because he did not know the files.
> So, DA and its subcontractors are committed to supply cost and hours of labor that India has valued with the HAL hourly rates.
> So, HAL was not engaged and a position of strength, and had quietly tripled the number of hours, bringing the project out of budget.
> 
> It's a low part of total cost, but after that the price on which Rafale was declare L1 was not the price that engage Dassault. No other solution than to cancel MMRCA.



Are the two of you talking about the MMRCA contract or the new GTG deal that is yet to be negotiated?


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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> What happen for the MMRCA?
> The MMRCA clause required to take HAL as integrator, so HAL could not commit on his price because he did not know the files.
> So, DA and its subcontractors are committed to supply cost and hours of labor that India has valued with the HAL hourly rates.
> So, HAL was not engaged and a position of strength, and had quietly tripled the number of hours, bringing the project out of budget.
> 
> It's a low part of total cost, but after that the price on which Rafale was declare L1 was not the price that engage Dassault. No other solution than to cancel MMRCA.


So HAL scuppered the MMRCA by effectively misleading the GoI/MoD? This means that if Dassualt sets up an Indian production line with its own choice of partner it will control the costs and this heavy (and unacceptable) 3x cost won't be present?


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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> So HAL scuppered the MMRCA by effectively misleading the GoI/MoD? This means that if Dassualt sets up an Indian production line with its own choice of partner it will control the costs and this heavy (and unacceptable) 3x cost won't be present?


I hope so.



randomradio said:


> It's the first one. We have had major shortages in basic and intermediate/advanced trainers. So not enough pilots are trained ever year.
> 
> Are the two of you talking about the MMRCA contract or the new GTG deal that is yet to be negotiated?



For me I spoke of MMRCA Contract. For the GtG there isn't such problem because there is no competition so the partner may have access to the files.

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## raktaka

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> What happen for the MMRCA?
> The MMRCA clause required to take HAL as integrator, so HAL could not commit on his price because he did not know the files.
> So, DA and its subcontractors are committed to supply cost and hours of labor that India has valued with the HAL hourly rates.
> So, HAL was not engaged and a position of strength, and had quietly tripled the number of hours, bringing the project out of budget.
> 
> It's a low part of total cost, but after that the price on which Rafale was declare L1 was not the price that engage Dassault. No other solution than to cancel MMRCA.



Even IF your Claim was true and HAL tripled the number of hours, it should have been not more expensive than Dassault production cost since Indian salaries are 1/5th that of French salaries to 1/7th of French salary. 

Even if Indian HAL factor workers salary is raised exorbitantly to 1/3rd of French salary then the cost of production in India should have been the SAME as that in France.


Funny how that is not so and the blame is put on the door steps of HAL.

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## PARIKRAMA

DM MP on the record last year in an interview made two claims.. This was right after PM NaMo asked for 36 jets

He said MMRCA is approprixmately Rs 90000 crs
HAL takes 2.7 times manhours to make one plane as compared to Dassault
Of course the manhour increase pushes everything haywired right from slow production schedule to increase in cost of production as you end up shelling out more in human capital cost for poor efficiency..

This problem is partly solved by letting Dassault chose the partner from private sector, train them, increase their skills and in tturn ensure production efficiency and similar manhours as is used by Dassault in Merignac plant.


On top the cost of human capital is yes indeed closer to 1/5th for India offering substantial saving for the Indian made Rafale

If you go by basic stuff, MMRCA avg cost all inclusive was approx Rs 720cr per jet looking at the 90000 crs figure...

That's the same range of Rs 720 crs now being targeted for per jet+ weapons package as per Dinakar Peri from the Hindu and other news channel like CNN awaaz etc..

Initially we were looking for closer to Rs650 crs of almost Euro 90 Mn for jet plus weapons in negotiations..

What I was told that for a larger order size of 200 kind of figure zone, India can procure jets plus weapons around Rs 540 crs owing to cost benefits.. Thats the median of range quoted most optimistic at Rs 500 crs and upper limit of Rs 580 crs. Implying between euro 75 mn to Euro 80 mn based on a massive order, localisation of supply chain partially and economies of scale coupled with lower human capital cost..

This is practically impossible if HAL becomes the partner...

Indeed the figure represents almost 20% -25% saving based on upper reaches of 580 crs to 540 crs median value as compared to MMRCA.

The new government is actually working on that logic to reduce the cost and accommodate tangible technology transfer to cases like LCA navy UC, perhaps Indian UCAV program to even a tie up for AMCA program other than blind pursuit of everything under the guise of technology transfer.....

I think @halloweene was having fun here by reminding us the truth why HAL created Rafales would be costly and why now a pvt sector company offers benefit to India..

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## raktaka

PARIKRAMA said:


> DM MP on the record last year in an interview made two claims.. This was right after PM NaMo asked for 36 jets
> 
> He said MMRCA is approprixmately Rs 90000 crs
> HAL takes 2.7 times manhours to make one plane as compared to Dassault
> Of course the manhour increase pushes everything haywired right from slow production schedule to increase in cost of production as you end up shelling out more in human capital cost for poor efficiency..
> 
> This problem is partly solved by letting Dassault chose the partner from private sector, train them, increase their skills and in tturn ensure production efficiency and similar manhours as is used by Dassault in Merignac plant.
> 
> 
> On top the cost of human capital is yes indeed closer to 1/5th for India offering substantial saving for the Indian made Rafale
> 
> If you go by basic stuff, MMRCA avg cost all inclusive was approx Rs 720cr per jet looking at the 90000 crs figure...
> 
> That's the same range of Rs 720 crs now being targeted for per jet+ weapons package as per Dinakar Peri from the Hindu and other news channel like CNN awaaz etc..
> 
> Initially we were looking for closer to Rs650 crs of almost Euro 90 Mn for jet plus weapons in negotiations..
> 
> What I was told that for a larger order size of 200 kind of figure zone, India can procure jets plus weapons around Rs 540 crs owing to cost benefits.. Thats the median of range quoted most optimistic at Rs 500 crs and upper limit of Rs 580 crs. Implying between euro 75 mn to Euro 80 mn based on a massive order, localisation of supply chain partially and economies of scale coupled with lower human capital cost..
> 
> This is practically impossible if HAL becomes the partner...
> 
> Indeed the figure represents almost 20% -25% saving based on upper reaches of 580 crs to 540 crs median value as compared to MMRCA.
> 
> The new government is actually working on that logic to reduce the cost and accommodate tangible technology transfer to cases like LCA navy UC, perhaps Indian UCAV program to even a tie up for AMCA program other than blind pursuit of everything under the guise of technology transfer.....
> 
> I think @halloweene was having fun here by reminding us the truth why HAL created Rafales would be costly and why now a pvt sector company offers benefit to India..



And here I thought you were the rational one. 

2.7 more man-hour does not necessarily translate to "slow production schedule, increase in cost of production OR poor efficiency". You demonstrate profound ignorance. 

1. Utilization of Man Hours in production are not LINEAR, they can also be parallel activity which can also result in SHORTER production schedule. 

2. Lower Indian salary which is 1/7th of French salary will lead to REDUCE in cost of production. 

3. More Man Hours can be due to lower Automation and more Man power involvement. This does not necessarily mean lower quality, it can ALSO result in better quality. For E.g. One of the most expensive Luxury cars in the world like Bentley or Rolls Royce is HAND MADE. 


India has a HUGE population which needs employment so Automation that ensure lack of jobs is not exactly something we should aspire for. Especially if we are spending 150 million $ per plane.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

raktaka said:


> Even IF your Claim was true and HAL tripled the number of hours, it should have been not more expensive than Dassault production cost since Indian salaries are 1/5th that of French salaries to 1/7th of French salary.
> 
> Even if Indian HAL factor workers salary is raised exorbitantly to 1/3rd of French salary then the cost of production in India should have been the SAME as that in France.
> 
> 
> Funny how that is not so and the blame is put on the door steps of HAL.


As I said It was a low part of the price, the problem was not the price, the problem was a formal problem because the MMRCA rules was very strict. The evaluation of the price made by the commission was not agree by Dassault due to the discrepancies, nobody never think that there will be such a difference in man-hours needed, but the final result was that the price on which Dassault was declared L1 is not the final price of the proposal. In fact Dassault is L1 because the same would have happen with Eurofighter, but there is no proof. One can say that it is the fault of Dassault, or due to the organisation of the competition or the fault of HAL, but me I just tell you the story.

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## PARIKRAMA

You remember



PARIKRAMA said:


> ++++++++++++++
> *Update... Source based..
> 
> Rafale deal is a big go....*
> 
> (Take with bags of salt  )
> 
> 
> Base year negotiation 2015 fixed finally from earlier negotiated 2011
> Price brought down to Euro 8Bn from initial Euro 11.5 Bn (with 2011 as base year)
> Further negotiations to trim down price to Euro 7.2-7.3 Bn implying another 700-800 Mn Euros
> The customizations may see some more cost trimming
> The support package + infrastructure package getting re negotiated.
> Jet+Weapons loaded is capped at Euro 100 Mn or Euro 3.6 Bn
> Effectively another 3.6 Bn is for support +infra+ training+ TCO+ spares+customizations+others
> Cost of infrastructure in terms of materials and manhours now being cited to reduce per base cost from earlier Euro 1.2 Bn per base
> Delivery schedule from 36 months from 2019 (3 years) and will be completed 2022 (5.5 years)
> MII part resolved. India has informed French Government MII needs to be done urgently owing to other competitive offers.. The surprise competitors are - Eurofighter (backed by Germany and UK) and F18s (USA/Boeing). Decision will be and implemented max to max by December 2016 for work to start immediately.. (any 1 of the 3 with first preference being Dassault)
> 10th point.. Shocker competition.... Angela Merkel on her last visit emphasized less on Submarines more on EF make in India.. Seems sweeter includes an AESA radar of NG for complete TOT + other considerable goodies with tech sharing for EJ 200 and EJ230 joint effort with TVC to power AMCA.
> 
> It seems DM MP has personally informed Jean-Yves Le Drian about it when they met in New Delhi and said GOI wants a firm MII decision implemented by max Dec 2016 with start of work immediately. The EF offer in hush hush mode is the second trump card besides Russian FGFA program+ more MKI. DA seems to have fallen in line for threat of losing the lucrative 200+ jet market and that too to a European Rival...
> 
> So India's final cost working expected around Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3Bn or at Euro/INR 77 its Rs 55450 Crs - Rs 56210 Crs
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++



Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 120

A special emphasis on these 2 points
_10. MII part resolved. India has informed French Government MII needs to be done urgently owing to other competitive offers.. The surprise competitors are - Eurofighter (backed by Germany and UK) and F18s (USA/Boeing). Decision will be and implemented max to max by December 2016 for work to start immediately.. (any 1 of the 3 with first preference being Dassault)_​
An update on this in news media...

Officially throwing open the contest for fighter aircraft once again, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said that India will select one or two fighter aircraft which will be manufactured locally by a private company under Make in India initiative. This is in addition to the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the production of which is being scaled up.

India and France are in advanced stage of talks to conclude an inter-governmental agreement for the direct purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets. This fighter aircraft will likely be other than the Rafale.

*“Under the Make in India process we may have one or two more jet fighter plants in India by the private sector,” Mr. Parrikar said on Tuesday on the sidelines of a job creation summit organised by Wadhwani Foundation.*

He said that several proposals are under consideration and “through proper process we may select them to make in India.”

*While emphasising that there will be at least one or two fighter jets that may be selected, Mr. Parrikar said a decision is likely to be taken by year end.*

“India has the need for that number of aircraft but this does not mean increasing defence budget to cater to the purchases. This can be done by reducing defence expenditure in other areas,” he stressed.

*Mr. Parrikar said his ministry is in an advanced stage of giving approval to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for setting up a second assembly line for the LCA to increase the production rate from eight to 16 aircraft per year.*

The Air Force is expected to induct over 100 of the improved LCA which will feature an Advanced Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, mid-air refuelling and improved electronic warfare suite in addition to other minor improvements.

*Stating that HAL has currently streamlined the assembly line for production of eight aircraft per year, Mr. Parrikar said that this will absorb between 10,000 to 20,000 people in the full ecosystem.*

Even as the Rafale talks are on, Mr. Parrikar had said that it is not a replacement for the much smaller MIGs which are now being phased out. With this, companies who lost out in the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft contest (MMRCA) have been pitching their aircraft in anticipation of a comeback into the race.

Boeing and Lockheed Martin of the U.S. and Saab of Sweden have recently offered to establish manufacturing plants in India and transfer technology if their fighter aircraft were selected for the Indian Air Force.

India to select one or more fighter aircraft, to be built by private sector under Make in India initiative - The Hindu

+++
Observation
In line with what @randomradio has stated before, there is a scope for inducting 1 or 2 jets under MII
Two statements

*“Under the Make in India process we may have one or two more jet fighter plants in India by the private sector,”*
*This fighter aircraft will likely be other than the Rafale.*
Both of these points suggest the fighter should be placed in between perhaps Rafale and LCA. The point to observe is

*“India has the need for that number of aircraft but this does not mean increasing defence budget to cater to the purchases. This can be done by reducing defence expenditure in other areas,” *

and
*
"With this, companies who lost out in the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft contest (MMRCA) have been pitching their aircraft in anticipation of a comeback into the race."*

This seems to suggest that within the budget this permutation combination will be made.. So a question to ask is how will you accomodate another fighter within the budget unless you eat out part of Rafales and LCA budget..

An example is (all assumptions to understand)

if LCA was originally planned for say an hypothetical 250 jets you decrease 100 from there.
If Rafales were originally planned for say 200 jets you decrease 100 there too

You get something around USD 28 x 100 (LCA) + USD 100 x 100 = USD 13000

And buy instead 150 jets with this price for say USD 85 Mn approx

We actually replaced 200 jets with 150 but ensure this production line delivers much quicker and in parallel with others..

Now question comes in my mind,


this jet owing to a price similar to Rafale or say 15-20% cheaper offers what % in terms of capability of Rafale?
the other question if the said jet is double the cost of LCA or more, what additional capability it brings above LCA?
If its a Gripen or say LSA how this single fighter does not scuttle our plan for further development of LCA?
If its F18 or EF how this does not scuttle Rafale line aspect and our benefit from it?

A third aspect.. Is it just a pressure tactic..after all, we want Dassault and French side to agree as per our requirements..

or a fourth aspect .. a repeat of 150 Mirages to be bought versus actually 51.. the story of early1980s..

@Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Vauban @MilSpec @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @raktaka
I would love to hear all of your views.. This is getting a bit more murky unless i am missing something

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## raktaka

PARIKRAMA said:


> Sadly, in another thread i had already posted HAL efficiency vs cost of production and the salary they draw for ...
> 
> 1. If we aspire and talk about parallel processing or activity level in HAL sadly you are mistaken.. If you say its a company for example L&T i will agree nonetheless but HAL ability is limited and thus it does not have shorter production schedule.



I work with HAL and have a far better understanding of production process. HAL is not a model company, but it is not a hopeless organisation either. Their competency is well established and their employees are well trained for most parts. Prejudiced speculation should have no space here. 



> 2. Yes i said increase in cost of production owing to the fact that elongated production schedule implies more number of days required for finishing a production and HAl being a govt entity which employs a sizeable number in excess of 34K approx employees ends up compensating them for their inefficiency.



*Irrelevant*. Efficiency here need to be calculated in terms of productivity / USD ($). In such a measurement. HAL will come out AHEAD of Dassault. 



> 3. True automation decreases the need of many blocks in production schedule decreasing the overall timeline.. Unfortunately, automation and quality cannot be directly compared as you rightly pointed about hand made car but Bentley market is limited owing to the cost factor. Here we are talking about a jet which needs to be mass produced.. Mass produced units are not hand made but rather combination of machine and man made...



You mean 10,000 Bentleys per year as compared to 12-18 Rafale per year ?  Do you realize how absurd you sound ?


> An example to suggest is number of employees Dassault has versus HAL has and compare the automation level + human skill levels versus HAL automation + skill levels.. The quality control aspect of HAL just meets our standards but not the market standards as laid by most of the global majors...



*Irrelevant*. As long as HAL delivers to OUR Standard, it is doing its job. 

If you or IAF is not happy, they are free to Raise their standard and convince. DGAQA to do so. 



> as for why i said about hal, this is the basis
> 
> using the data from this link :http://www. hal-india. com/Common/ Uploads/Finance/Annual-Report-2013-14- English.pdf
> which is basically the annual report for 2013-14
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You see the trend shows, Sales per employee to avg employee cost showed a positive trend till 2006-07 post which it fell down and is hovering at a rate which is somewhat similar to 2004-05 time era.



Again you demonstrate limited understanding of productivity. 

In 99-00 USD was 43 Rs per dollar. In 13-14 USD was 63 Rs per Dollar. So in Global terms HAL Productivity has INCREASED over time. As measured in Productivity per Dollar. 

Further more since Average Manpower cost is INCREASING EVERY YEAR due to inflation, HAL has managed to hold the sales per employee to between 5.0 -6.0 since 2010 shows stable productivity and a good Sigma process. 



> This proves that avg employee cost in spite of higher sales resulting into higher sales per employee is clearly offset by increase in manpower costs which is also observed in the excel.



*IRRELEVANT*. 



> The other way to interpret is that manpower cost to sales growth ratio
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this shows the human capital costs as part of sales is down from original 99-00 timeline and is now around 18%.
> 
> The decreasing trend of this and asymmetric trend in sales per employee to average manpower cost suggests that employees could be used for better productivity than whats they are at present doing. That may result in better productivity and higher sales.



Of course  ........ Productivity can ALWAYS be increased. 3 sigma can become 6 sigma, 6 sigma can become 9 sigma. That is continues improvement. But that is IRRELEVANT to the issue at hand. 


> Made in India is costlier; joint development is mere purchase
> 
> So you can explain why manpower cost/sales showing a decreasing trend versus sales per employee/avg manpower cost is both linear for last decade or so .. both going downwards..



LOL...If I am to be hired as an Productivity expert by HAL I can do so. But for now, that is IRRELEVANT. 

For now with all its shortcomings HAL is far more productive than Dasasult for productivity PER Dollar. or EURO. 

And that is ALL that should matter. 

Or am I missing something here ?

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## PARIKRAMA

raktaka said:


> I work with HAL and have a far better understanding of production process. HAL is not a model company, but it is not a hopeless organisation either. Their competency is well established and their employees are well trained for most parts. Prejudiced speculation should have no space here.
> 
> 
> 
> *Irrelevant*. Efficiency here need to be calculated in terms of productivity / USD ($). In such a measurement. HAL will come out AHEAD of Dassault.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean 10,000 Bentleys per year as compared to 12-18 Rafale per year ?  Do you realize how absurd you sound ?
> 
> 
> *Irrelevant*. As long as HAL delivers to OUR Standard, it is doing its job.
> 
> If you or IAF is not happy, they are free to Raise their standard and convince. DGAQA to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> Again you demonstrate limited understanding of productivity.
> 
> In 99-00 USD was 43 Rs per dollar. In 13-14 USD was 63 Rs per Dollar. So in Global terms HAL Productivity has INCREASED over time. As measured in Productivity per Dollar.
> 
> Further more since Average Manpower cost is INCREASING EVERY YEAR due to inflation, HAL has managed to hold the sales per employee to between 5.0 -6.0 since 2010 shows stable productivity and a good Sigma process.
> 
> 
> 
> *IRRELEVANT*.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course  ........ Productivity can ALWAYS be increased. 3 sigma can become 6 sigma, 6 sigma can become 9 sigma. That is continues improvement. But that is IRRELEVANT to the issue at hand.
> 
> 
> LOL...If I am to be hired as an Productivity expert by HAL I can do so. But for now, that is IRRELEVANT.
> 
> For now with all its shortcomings HAL is far more productive than Dasasult for productivity PER Dollar. or EURO.
> 
> And that is ALL that should matter.
> 
> Or am I missing something here ?



Sadly i deleted the post thinking it will go off topic.. BTW all are in rupee terms.. i did not consider any other currency as figures from HAL carries INR not USD

As for HAL, i may not be working for HAL but i do work for a company which specializes on certain aspects of work which tends to directly result in Indian economic position and might.. Perhaps thats why i was quoting something which is being looked at ministry level...

I wont say you are wrong nor i would say i am wrong.... But i would always say HAL is not as rosy as any other DPSU
is nor is a model PSU by any standards.. any given day there are far better managed PSU available which are bigger cash cows for GOI then HAL which has been a let down with limitations imposed by government itself..


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## raktaka

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> As I said It was a low part of the price, the problem was not the price, the problem was a formal problem because the MMRCA rules was very strict. The evaluation of the price made by the commission was not agree by Dassault due to the discrepancies, nobody never think that there will be such a difference in man-hours needed, but the final result was that the price on which Dassault was declared L1 is not the final price of the proposal. In fact Dassault is L1 because the same would have happen with Eurofighter, but there is no proof. One can say that it is the fault of Dassault, or due to the organisation of the competition or the fault of HAL, but me I just tell you the story.



All it proves is that either,

1. Dassault DID NOT DO DUE DILIGENCE. ..... or 

2. Dassault DID do due diligence but then decided to CON India.

HAL as partner was clearly spelled out in the RFP so common sense dictate ANYONE would first seek information from HAL regarding its overheads before calculating the final cost and submitting the proposal. 

You have admitted to Dassault seeking to revising the L1 after winning the contest. A CLEAR breach of rules and norms. I don't see why that should elicit any sympathy or empathy. 

Then to cover up this INCOMPETENCE and blame HAL is Cheeky.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Sadly i deleted the post thinking it will go off topic.. BTW all are in rupee terms.. i did not consider any other currency as figures from HAL carries INR not USD
> 
> As for HAL, i may not be working for HAL but i do work for a company which specializes on certain aspects of work which tends to directly result in Indian economic position and might.. Perhaps thats why i was quoting something which is being looked at ministry level...
> 
> I wont say you are wrong nor i would say i am wrong.... But i would always say HAL is not as rosy as any other DPSU
> is nor is a model PSU by any standards.. any given day there are far better managed PSU available which are bigger cash cows for GOI then HAL which has been a let down with limitations imposed by government itself..



Again *Irrelevant*. 

Virtues of HAL or IAF is not the issue here. I fail to see how dragging that into the discussing can absolve Dassault of THEIR incompetency. 

PS: I don't work FOR HAL, I work WITH HAL.


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## PARIKRAMA

raktaka said:


> PS: I don't work FOR HAL, I work WITH HAL.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

> @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Vauban @MilSpec @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @raktaka
> I would love to hear all of your views.. This is getting a bit more murky unless i am missing something


It is because Parrikar wants Mig-35

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## raktaka

PARIKRAMA said:


> You remember
> 
> 
> 
> Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 120
> 
> A special emphasis on these 2 points
> _10. MII part resolved. India has informed French Government MII needs to be done urgently owing to other competitive offers.. The surprise competitors are - Eurofighter (backed by Germany and UK) and F18s (USA/Boeing). Decision will be and implemented max to max by December 2016 for work to start immediately.. (any 1 of the 3 with first preference being Dassault)_​
> An update on this in news media...
> 
> Officially throwing open the contest for fighter aircraft once again, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said that India will select one or two fighter aircraft which will be manufactured locally by a private company under Make in India initiative. This is in addition to the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the production of which is being scaled up.
> 
> India and France are in advanced stage of talks to conclude an inter-governmental agreement for the direct purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets. This fighter aircraft will likely be other than the Rafale.
> 
> *“Under the Make in India process we may have one or two more jet fighter plants in India by the private sector,” Mr. Parrikar said on Tuesday on the sidelines of a job creation summit organised by Wadhwani Foundation.*
> 
> He said that several proposals are under consideration and “through proper process we may select them to make in India.”
> 
> *While emphasising that there will be at least one or two fighter jets that may be selected, Mr. Parrikar said a decision is likely to be taken by year end.*
> 
> “India has the need for that number of aircraft but this does not mean increasing defence budget to cater to the purchases. This can be done by reducing defence expenditure in other areas,” he stressed.
> 
> *Mr. Parrikar said his ministry is in an advanced stage of giving approval to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for setting up a second assembly line for the LCA to increase the production rate from eight to 16 aircraft per year.*
> 
> The Air Force is expected to induct over 100 of the improved LCA which will feature an Advanced Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, mid-air refuelling and improved electronic warfare suite in addition to other minor improvements.
> 
> *Stating that HAL has currently streamlined the assembly line for production of eight aircraft per year, Mr. Parrikar said that this will absorb between 10,000 to 20,000 people in the full ecosystem.*
> 
> Even as the Rafale talks are on, Mr. Parrikar had said that it is not a replacement for the much smaller MIGs which are now being phased out. With this, companies who lost out in the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft contest (MMRCA) have been pitching their aircraft in anticipation of a comeback into the race.
> 
> Boeing and Lockheed Martin of the U.S. and Saab of Sweden have recently offered to establish manufacturing plants in India and transfer technology if their fighter aircraft were selected for the Indian Air Force.
> 
> India to select one or more fighter aircraft, to be built by private sector under Make in India initiative - The Hindu
> 
> +++
> Observation
> In line with what @randomradio has stated before, there is a scope for inducting 1 or 2 jets under MII
> Two statements
> 
> *“Under the Make in India process we may have one or two more jet fighter plants in India by the private sector,”*
> *This fighter aircraft will likely be other than the Rafale.*
> Both of these points suggest the fighter should be placed in between perhaps Rafale and LCA. The point to observe is
> 
> *“India has the need for that number of aircraft but this does not mean increasing defence budget to cater to the purchases. This can be done by reducing defence expenditure in other areas,” *
> 
> and
> *
> "With this, companies who lost out in the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft contest (MMRCA) have been pitching their aircraft in anticipation of a comeback into the race."*
> 
> This seems to suggest that within the budget this permutation combination will be made.. So a question to ask is how will you accomodate another fighter within the budget unless you eat out part of Rafales and LCA budget..
> 
> An example is (all assumptions to understand)
> 
> if LCA was originally planned for say an hypothetical 250 jets you decrease 100 from there.
> If Rafales were originally planned for say 200 jets you decrease 100 there too
> 
> You get something around USD 28 x 100 (LCA) + USD 100 x 100 = USD 13000
> 
> And buy instead 150 jets with this price for say USD 85 Mn approx
> 
> We actually replaced 200 jets with 150 but ensure this production line delivers much quicker and in parallel with others..
> 
> Now question comes in my mind,
> 
> 
> this jet owing to a price similar to Rafale or say 15-20% cheaper offers what % in terms of capability of Rafale?
> the other question if the said jet is double the cost of LCA or more, what additional capability it brings above LCA?
> If its a Gripen or say LSA how this single fighter does not scuttle our plan for further development of LCA?
> If its F18 or EF how this does not scuttle Rafale line aspect and our benefit from it?
> 
> A third aspect.. Is it just a pressure tactic..after all, we want Dassault and French side to agree as per our requirements..
> 
> or a fourth aspect .. a repeat of 150 Mirages to be bought versus actually 51.. the story of early1980s..
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Vauban @MilSpec @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @raktaka
> I would love to hear all of your views.. This is getting a bit more murky unless i am missing something



It is the most logical outcome of the mess that was MMRCA.

Final race will be between Grippen or F-16 to build cheap single engine fighters in India.

It make no difference since LCA, Grippen and F-16, ALL carries a US engine 

I suspect the Aircraft that delivers MOST VALUE FOR MONEY will Win. More Bang for Buck.

*Which means it will be Grippen NG. *

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## Picdelamirand-oil

raktaka said:


> All it proves is that either,
> 
> 1. Dassault DID NOT DO DUE DILIGENCE. ..... or
> 
> 2. Dassault DID do due diligence but then decided to CON India.
> 
> HAL as partner was clearly spelled out in the RFP so common sense dictate ANYONE would first seek information from HAL regarding its overheads before calculating the final cost and submitting the proposal.
> 
> You have admitted to Dassault seeking to revising the L1 after winning the contest. A CLEAR breach of rules and norms. I don't see why that should elicit any sympathy or empathy.
> 
> Then to cover up this INCOMPETENCE and blame HAL is Cheeky.



France is proud that Its most incompetent companies are at Dassault level.

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## PARIKRAMA

@Picdelamirand-oil 
Off topic but Sir, I see you are a professional now...Excellent.. Its good that webby gave the tags in 3 days approx..

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## raktaka

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> France is proud that Its most incompetent companies are at Dassault level.



Pride has its place, but not in business. Certainly not when looking to make a deal.


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## Dash

Please everybody, just go to

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## Picdelamirand-oil

raktaka said:


> *Irrelevant*. Efficiency here need to be calculated in terms of productivity / USD ($). In such a measurement. HAL will come out AHEAD of Dassault.



*Dassault*
Revenue €3.680 billion (2014) ===> $ 4 billion 
Number of employees 11,745 (2014)
Productivity ($/employees) = $ 340570
Dassault Aviation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
*HAL*
Revenue 177.532614 billion (US$2.6 billion) (2014) ====> $ 2.6 billion
Number of employees 32108 (March, 2014)
Productivity ($/employees) = 80976
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



PARIKRAMA said:


> @Picdelamirand-oil
> Off topic but Sir, I see you are a professional now...Excellent.. Its good that webby gave the tags in 3 days approx..


Thanks to you for asking this promotion for me. I remember that @randomradio asks it too and I thank him too.

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## PARIKRAMA

Even though Gripen NG is a good jet but how will we gain by getting Gripen from SAAB?
Source and internal research says


Gripen is making a major push for India’s large fighter purchase. 
They have a modified version of the Gripen NG, the Gripen IN, which is designed especially for India. 
It will produce the majority of the fighters in India, allowing India to eventually export their version of the Gripen.
Price is about $65-70 million a plane, and technology transfers tend to be major selling points.
Loaded with weapons reaches $80-85 Mn approx
Customization cost will be different for IAF specific weapons and other specific needs.
Price
Source 1
The price of Gripen C/D is estimated around USD 61 Mn as per Philippines talks as per a news report in June 2015





Saab Jas 39 Gripen C/D Version Fighter Jets for the Philippines on its Way Soon

Source 2
According to Brazilian bid for Gripen NG (36 in numbers - 28 single and 8 double) the price is USD 4.8 Bn
Also,
_The SECC, which loaned US $6.8 billion to support the overseas contract attainment activities of Swedish exporters in 2014, has approved a $4.8 billion credit to Brazil to cover the cost of acquisition for the Gripen NGs.

In addition, the SECC has extended a $245.3 million credit to allow Brazil to acquire weapons systems for the aircraft. The loans, which were green-lighted by the Brazilian Federal Senate on Aug. 5, carry a negotiated interest rate of 2.19 percent._

Sweden, Brazil Pursue Deeper Cooperation With $4.7B Gripen NG Deal

All inclusive package price puts USD 133 Mn per jet and weapons extra

Its estimated that Jet would be close to USD 75-80 Mn assuming 55-60% of the cost
Weapons add around USD 7 Mn more per jet so all inclusive around USD 82-87 Mn.
Point to note is weapons package is minimal here

Source 3
Reuters quote the deal to Be USD 5.4 Bn with USD 245 Mn for Weapons
UPDATE 2-Sweden lowers loan cost in Saab fighter deal for Brazil| Reuters
all inclusive package price puts Gripen at USD 150 Mn except weapons

That pegs jet around USD 85-90 Mn and weapons loaded at USD 7Mn to cost closer to USD 90-97 Mn assuming a similar 60% cost

Source 4
Flight global says its USD 4.68 Bn
Brazil finalises $4.68bn Gripen NG deal
Based on that package excluding weapons comes to USD 130 Mn or USD 75-78 Mn per jet cost
With weapons its USD 82-85 Mn

In terms of CPFH 
As on 2014 beginning
_The global fleet of Gripens now operated by the Czech Republic, Hungary, South Africa, Sweden and Thailand has logged 203,000 flight hours, according to Saab. The Swedish air force lists its current per-hour operating cost with the type as being around SKr48,000 ($7,560)._
Saab reveals full Gripen E design, cost savings

Now estimated in and around USD 7000 on lower side and upper side USD 7500

IPR holding
Barring few most IPR are not held by Saab and will require some leeway from BAe and other US majors to allow technology transfer. BAe also holds a veto power.
Some also says few IP rights will be given to Brazil as per their deal perhaps jointly owned..


+++
So in all estimation around USD 65-70 Mn approx for India for a bigger order and weapons loaded closer to USD 80-85 Mn


The question to ask what it brings to us that we should consider Gripen NG? As most things are not under Saab's control...
Effectively is it not end game for LCA MK2?
In terms of CPFH its smack in the middle of LCA and Rafale but undercutting both will help IAF how?
Since there are plans for sea gripen, will that eat up LCA-N MK2 too?
What technology can be used for say AMCA? Is it superior to combination of Rafale+FGFA derived tech?

What about the initial cost for manufacturing line? Will 40% cost which i left cover bases infra+training+support+services+others? or will that inflate more owing to multiple bases need?

@randomradio
Can you help with some data about Light Stealth Aircraft you talked about.. Wish to understand if Gripen NG is superior or inferior to that product potential?

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## Dash

PARIKRAMA said:


> Effectively is it not end game for LCA MK2?



Yes, Gripen is the final nail in the LCA's life size coffin. IAF will effectively close it down. Remember IAF is buying LAC against its will and Gripen is just the damn excuse they were looking for.

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## Ankit Kumar

PARIKRAMA said:


> Even though Gripen NG is a good jet but how will we gain by getting Gripen from SAAB?
> Source and internal research says
> 
> 
> Gripen is making a major push for India’s large fighter purchase.
> They have a modified version of the Gripen NG, the Gripen IN, which is designed especially for India.
> It will produce the majority of the fighters in India, allowing India to eventually export their version of the Gripen.
> Price is about $65-70 million a plane, and technology transfers tend to be major selling points.
> Loaded with weapons reaches $80-85 Mn approx
> Customization cost will be different for IAF specific weapons and other specific needs.
> Price
> Source 1
> The price of Gripen C/D is estimated around USD 61 Mn as per Philippines talks as per a news report in June 2015
> 
> View attachment 294260
> 
> Saab Jas 39 Gripen C/D Version Fighter Jets for the Philippines on its Way Soon
> 
> Source 2
> According to Brazilian bid for Gripen NG (36 in numbers - 28 single and 8 double) the price is USD 4.8 Bn
> Also,
> _The SECC, which loaned US $6.8 billion to support the overseas contract attainment activities of Swedish exporters in 2014, has approved a $4.8 billion credit to Brazil to cover the cost of acquisition for the Gripen NGs.
> 
> In addition, the SECC has extended a $245.3 million credit to allow Brazil to acquire weapons systems for the aircraft. The loans, which were green-lighted by the Brazilian Federal Senate on Aug. 5, carry a negotiated interest rate of 2.19 percent._
> 
> Sweden, Brazil Pursue Deeper Cooperation With $4.7B Gripen NG Deal
> 
> All inclusive package price puts USD 133 Mn per jet and weapons extra
> 
> Its estimated that Jet would be close to USD 75-80 Mn assuming 55-60% of the cost
> Weapons add around USD 7 Mn more per jet so all inclusive around USD 82-87 Mn.
> Point to note is weapons package is minimal here
> 
> Source 3
> Reuters quote the deal to Be USD 5.4 Bn with USD 245 Mn for Weapons
> UPDATE 2-Sweden lowers loan cost in Saab fighter deal for Brazil| Reuters
> all inclusive package price puts Gripen at USD 150 Mn except weapons
> 
> That pegs jet around USD 85-90 Mn and weapons loaded at USD 7Mn to cost closer to USD 90-97 Mn assuming a similar 60% cost
> 
> Source 4
> Flight global says its USD 4.68 Bn
> Brazil finalises $4.68bn Gripen NG deal
> Based on that package excluding weapons comes to USD 130 Mn or USD 75-78 Mn per jet cost
> With weapons its USD 82-85 Mn
> 
> In terms of CPFH
> As on 2014 beginning
> _The global fleet of Gripens now operated by the Czech Republic, Hungary, South Africa, Sweden and Thailand has logged 203,000 flight hours, according to Saab. The Swedish air force lists its current per-hour operating cost with the type as being around SKr48,000 ($7,560)._
> Saab reveals full Gripen E design, cost savings
> 
> Now estimated in and around USD 7000 on lower side and upper side USD 7500
> 
> IPR holding
> Barring few most IPR are not held by Saab and will require some leeway from BAe and other US majors to allow technology transfer. BAe also holds a veto power.
> Some also says few IP rights will be given to Brazil as per their deal perhaps jointly owned..
> 
> 
> +++
> So in all estimation around USD 65-70 Mn approx for India for a bigger order and weapons loaded closer to USD 80-85 Mn
> 
> 
> The question to ask what it brings to us that we should consider Gripen NG? As most things are not under Saab's control...
> Effectively is it not end game for LCA MK2?
> In terms of CPFH its smack in the middle of LCA and Rafale but undercutting both will help IAF how?
> Since there are plans for sea gripen, will that eat up LCA-N MK2 too?
> What technology can be used for say AMCA? Is it superior to combination of Rafale+FGFA derived tech?
> 
> What about the initial cost for manufacturing line? Will 40% cost which i left cover bases infra+training+support+services+others? or will that inflate more owing to multiple bases need?
> 
> @randomradio
> Can you help with some data about Light Stealth Aircraft you talked about.. Wish to understand if Gripen NG is superior or inferior to that product potential?



If Gripen E/F, then why not Mig35? 
Mig35 was rejected for the reason it being too new and untested and immature platform at that time. 

So is Gripen E/F now. 
At least the Mig35 was flying back then, I don't see Gripen E/F flying. 

SAAB put up a replica of Gripen E at Singapore air show . 

And the second thing is price, why pay 90 million dollars for 1 Gripen E rather than paying 90 million dollars for 3 mk1A? 

The third is the timeline, SAAB promised Brazil to roll out Gripen E prototype by 16-17 which is now pushed back to 18-19. 

Is it anywhere near wise going for Gripen ? 

Also the AESA will come from Italy, can anyone gurantee me that the secrets of AESA will not find its way to Pakistan ?

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## raktaka

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> *Dassault*
> Revenue €3.680 billion (2014) ===> $ 4 billion
> Number of employees 11,745 (2014)
> Productivity ($/employees) = $ 340570
> Dassault Aviation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> *HAL*
> Revenue 177.532614 billion (US$2.6 billion) (2014) ====> $ 2.6 billion
> Number of employees 32108 (March, 2014)
> Productivity ($/employees) = 80976
> Hindustan Aeronautics Limited - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



What you fail to recognize is that for Good & Services IN INDIA the true value is measured in PPP. Which in India's case is 3.7 X the USD. 

So in effect HAL productivity is =80976 x 3.7 = *2,99,611 $ *which is not so different from Dassault. 

To put it in perspective, Dassault Only manufactures around 24 Rafale per year and 12 Falcon per year. (correct me about falcon if I am wrong) i.e *36 Aircraft's per year. *

HAL produces per year,

1. 10 Dorniers 228 - *10*
2. ALH Dhruv - *36*
3. LCA - *12*
4. Su 30MKI - *16*
5. Hawk - *24*
6 Cheetah - *10

Total = 108 Aircafts per year* (approx)

This is not including the LCH, LUH, IJT, etc. 


Just because you cannot see something, does't mean it does not exist.

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## raktaka

PARIKRAMA said:


> Even though Gripen NG is a good jet but how will we gain by getting Gripen from SAAB?
> Source and internal research says
> 
> 
> Gripen is making a major push for India’s large fighter purchase.
> They have a modified version of the Gripen NG, the Gripen IN, which is designed especially for India.
> It will produce the majority of the fighters in India, allowing India to eventually export their version of the Gripen.
> Price is about $65-70 million a plane, and technology transfers tend to be major selling points.
> Loaded with weapons reaches $80-85 Mn approx
> Customization cost will be different for IAF specific weapons and other specific needs.
> Price
> Source 1
> The price of Gripen C/D is estimated around USD 61 Mn as per Philippines talks as per a news report in June 2015
> 
> View attachment 294260
> 
> Saab Jas 39 Gripen C/D Version Fighter Jets for the Philippines on its Way Soon
> 
> Source 2
> According to Brazilian bid for Gripen NG (36 in numbers - 28 single and 8 double) the price is USD 4.8 Bn
> Also,
> _The SECC, which loaned US $6.8 billion to support the overseas contract attainment activities of Swedish exporters in 2014, has approved a $4.8 billion credit to Brazil to cover the cost of acquisition for the Gripen NGs.
> 
> In addition, the SECC has extended a $245.3 million credit to allow Brazil to acquire weapons systems for the aircraft. The loans, which were green-lighted by the Brazilian Federal Senate on Aug. 5, carry a negotiated interest rate of 2.19 percent._
> 
> Sweden, Brazil Pursue Deeper Cooperation With $4.7B Gripen NG Deal
> 
> All inclusive package price puts USD 133 Mn per jet and weapons extra
> 
> Its estimated that Jet would be close to USD 75-80 Mn assuming 55-60% of the cost
> Weapons add around USD 7 Mn more per jet so all inclusive around USD 82-87 Mn.
> Point to note is weapons package is minimal here
> 
> Source 3
> Reuters quote the deal to Be USD 5.4 Bn with USD 245 Mn for Weapons
> UPDATE 2-Sweden lowers loan cost in Saab fighter deal for Brazil| Reuters
> all inclusive package price puts Gripen at USD 150 Mn except weapons
> 
> That pegs jet around USD 85-90 Mn and weapons loaded at USD 7Mn to cost closer to USD 90-97 Mn assuming a similar 60% cost
> 
> Source 4
> Flight global says its USD 4.68 Bn
> Brazil finalises $4.68bn Gripen NG deal
> Based on that package excluding weapons comes to USD 130 Mn or USD 75-78 Mn per jet cost
> With weapons its USD 82-85 Mn
> 
> In terms of CPFH
> As on 2014 beginning
> _The global fleet of Gripens now operated by the Czech Republic, Hungary, South Africa, Sweden and Thailand has logged 203,000 flight hours, according to Saab. The Swedish air force lists its current per-hour operating cost with the type as being around SKr48,000 ($7,560)._
> Saab reveals full Gripen E design, cost savings
> 
> Now estimated in and around USD 7000 on lower side and upper side USD 7500
> 
> IPR holding
> Barring few most IPR are not held by Saab and will require some leeway from BAe and other US majors to allow technology transfer. BAe also holds a veto power.
> Some also says few IP rights will be given to Brazil as per their deal perhaps jointly owned..
> 
> 
> +++
> So in all estimation around USD 65-70 Mn approx for India for a bigger order and weapons loaded closer to USD 80-85 Mn
> 
> 
> The question to ask what it brings to us that we should consider Gripen NG? As most things are not under Saab's control...
> Effectively is it not end game for LCA MK2?
> In terms of CPFH its smack in the middle of LCA and Rafale but undercutting both will help IAF how?
> Since there are plans for sea gripen, will that eat up LCA-N MK2 too?
> What technology can be used for say AMCA? Is it superior to combination of Rafale+FGFA derived tech?
> 
> What about the initial cost for manufacturing line? Will 40% cost which i left cover bases infra+training+support+services+others? or will that inflate more owing to multiple bases need?
> 
> @randomradio
> Can you help with some data about Light Stealth Aircraft you talked about.. Wish to understand if Gripen NG is superior or inferior to that product potential?



The fact that Brazil brought Grippen should put all speculation to rest. It was clearly the one that gave most value for money. (including local production)

Since its Engine is US and is subject to "strings", how doe it matter if other parts have the same problem ? That is illogical. 100% of Rafale is not French either.



Dash said:


> Yes, Gripen is the final nail in the LCA's life size coffin. IAF will effectively close it down. Remember IAF is buying LAC against its will and Gripen is just the damn excuse they were looking for.



As long as IAF purchase 100+ LCA, it will have no option but to use it and then blame it for the rest of its life. That will never change. 

IAF criticism should not be a factor when deciding strategic development of Local jet.

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## Dash

raktaka said:


> As long as IAF purchase 100+ LCA, it will have no option but to use it and then blame it for the rest of its life. That will never change.
> 
> IAF criticism should not be a factor when deciding strategic development of Local jet.



Please illuminate me on what is "strategic" in the local development of Gripen, apart from the same thing what we are doing for MKIs.

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## raktaka

Dash said:


> Please illuminate me on what is "strategic" in the local development of Gripen, apart from the same thing what we are doing for MKIs.



LCA development and production is strategic. Grippen purchase is Tactical.

MKI is strategic because we have 100% ToT and local manufacturing from raw materials.

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## Ankit Kumar

PARIKRAMA said:


> Even though Gripen NG is a good jet but how will we gain by getting Gripen from SAAB?
> Source and internal research says
> 
> 
> Gripen is making a major push for India’s large fighter purchase.
> They have a modified version of the Gripen NG, the Gripen IN, which is designed especially for India.
> It will produce the majority of the fighters in India, allowing India to eventually export their version of the Gripen.
> Price is about $65-70 million a plane, and technology transfers tend to be major selling points.
> Loaded with weapons reaches $80-85 Mn approx
> Customization cost will be different for IAF specific weapons and other specific needs.
> Price
> Source 1
> The price of Gripen C/D is estimated around USD 61 Mn as per Philippines talks as per a news report in June 2015
> 
> View attachment 294260
> 
> Saab Jas 39 Gripen C/D Version Fighter Jets for the Philippines on its Way Soon
> 
> Source 2
> According to Brazilian bid for Gripen NG (36 in numbers - 28 single and 8 double) the price is USD 4.8 Bn
> Also,
> _The SECC, which loaned US $6.8 billion to support the overseas contract attainment activities of Swedish exporters in 2014, has approved a $4.8 billion credit to Brazil to cover the cost of acquisition for the Gripen NGs.
> 
> In addition, the SECC has extended a $245.3 million credit to allow Brazil to acquire weapons systems for the aircraft. The loans, which were green-lighted by the Brazilian Federal Senate on Aug. 5, carry a negotiated interest rate of 2.19 percent._
> 
> Sweden, Brazil Pursue Deeper Cooperation With $4.7B Gripen NG Deal
> 
> All inclusive package price puts USD 133 Mn per jet and weapons extra
> 
> Its estimated that Jet would be close to USD 75-80 Mn assuming 55-60% of the cost
> Weapons add around USD 7 Mn more per jet so all inclusive around USD 82-87 Mn.
> Point to note is weapons package is minimal here
> 
> Source 3
> Reuters quote the deal to Be USD 5.4 Bn with USD 245 Mn for Weapons
> UPDATE 2-Sweden lowers loan cost in Saab fighter deal for Brazil| Reuters
> all inclusive package price puts Gripen at USD 150 Mn except weapons
> 
> That pegs jet around USD 85-90 Mn and weapons loaded at USD 7Mn to cost closer to USD 90-97 Mn assuming a similar 60% cost
> 
> Source 4
> Flight global says its USD 4.68 Bn
> Brazil finalises $4.68bn Gripen NG deal
> Based on that package excluding weapons comes to USD 130 Mn or USD 75-78 Mn per jet cost
> With weapons its USD 82-85 Mn
> 
> In terms of CPFH
> As on 2014 beginning
> _The global fleet of Gripens now operated by the Czech Republic, Hungary, South Africa, Sweden and Thailand has logged 203,000 flight hours, according to Saab. The Swedish air force lists its current per-hour operating cost with the type as being around SKr48,000 ($7,560)._
> Saab reveals full Gripen E design, cost savings
> 
> Now estimated in and around USD 7000 on lower side and upper side USD 7500
> 
> IPR holding
> Barring few most IPR are not held by Saab and will require some leeway from BAe and other US majors to allow technology transfer. BAe also holds a veto power.
> Some also says few IP rights will be given to Brazil as per their deal perhaps jointly owned..
> 
> 
> +++
> So in all estimation around USD 65-70 Mn approx for India for a bigger order and weapons loaded closer to USD 80-85 Mn
> 
> 
> The question to ask what it brings to us that we should consider Gripen NG? As most things are not under Saab's control...
> Effectively is it not end game for LCA MK2?
> In terms of CPFH its smack in the middle of LCA and Rafale but undercutting both will help IAF how?
> Since there are plans for sea gripen, will that eat up LCA-N MK2 too?
> What technology can be used for say AMCA? Is it superior to combination of Rafale+FGFA derived tech?
> 
> What about the initial cost for manufacturing line? Will 40% cost which i left cover bases infra+training+support+services+others? or will that inflate more owing to multiple bases need?
> 
> @randomradio
> Can you help with some data about Light Stealth Aircraft you talked about.. Wish to understand if Gripen NG is superior or inferior to that product potential?



And by saying 90 million dollars for it , I am being very very soft. 

This was in 2012.
Svensk Gripen E påstås dyrare än schweizisk - NyTeknik

Will need some Google Translate.

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## Dash

raktaka said:


> LCA development and production is strategic. Grippen is Tactical.
> 
> MKI is strategic because we have 100% ToT and local manufacturing from raw materials.



Gripen is suicidal imo and I will be heavily dissapointed if Gripen comes here. It will be the biggest joke for many reasons. Second, You have no idea what 100% ToT is visa viz SNK assembelly line for MKI. Lets leave it at that.


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## raktaka

Dash said:


> Gripen is suicidal imo and I will be heavily dissapointed if Gripen comes here. It will be the biggest joke for many reasons. Second, You have no idea what 100% ToT is visa viz SNK assembelly line for MKI. Lets leave it at that.



I suspect I have a far greater understanding about MKI production in HAL that you can ever know. But that is irrelevant. 

TO ramp up numbers for IAF we need a second production line of LCA, it is far more logical to have a production line of Grippen. 

Having an US engine for LCA itself has been proven to be suicidal, but its too late to cry over spilt milk. When life gives you lemons, learn to make lemonade.

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## Dash

raktaka said:


> I suspect I have a far greater understanding about MKI production in HAL that you can ever know. But that is irrelevant.



Then please tell me what it is and I will be grateful.


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## Ankit Kumar

@PARIKRAMA
http://mobile2.bernerzeitung.ch/articles/551af635ab5c378d78000348
This one too

Plus I am not able to find that article right now. 
But as I recall
Croatia was negotiating for 12 C/D Models in 2005-7 for about ~65 million dollars, per aircrafts excluding weapons , training etc .
It was C/D in 2007. 

I wonder what Paper plane E/F cost in 2016.

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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar said:


> This was in 2012.





Ankit Kumar said:


> Svensk Gripen E påstås dyrare än schweizisk - NyTeknik
> 
> Will need some Google Translate.



*Swedish Gripen E allegedly more expensive than Swiss*
By: Monica Kleja
Published December 11, 2012 13:3875 Comments
Sweden have to pay 15-30 percent more for new Gripen E compared with Switzerland, says Swiss television. Today Tuesday the parliament vote on the purchase of the new Gripen system.

In the afternoon, after 15:30, keeps parliament a vote on the issue of Sweden should invest in renovating the Gripen system and buy 40-60 copies of the new Gripen E, or super-ja. Let the vote on Start - riksdagen.se

According to a Swiss television program Tagesschau research becomes more expensive to buy the plane for the Swedish taxpayers than the Swiss. Sweden is said to have to buy new Gripen E at a price that is 15-30 percent higher per plane, compared with the cost of taxpayers in Switzerland.

The price per plane to Switzerland is fixed and land of 100 million Swiss francs, or 745 million Swedish kronor for the Gripen E-flat, according Tagesschau.

Sweden, however, is said to buy the plane for between 115 and 130 million Swiss francs (860-970 million) per plane. The number varies depending on the equipment Sweden decide to buy the plane.

According Tagesschau be Defense Minister Karin Enstrom has confirmed that Sweden pays more per plane.

She is reported to have declared: "This price includes the development costs and the building of a new production chain" and that Swedish cooperation with Switzerland will be beneficial for Sweden in the long term.

Karin Enstrom's press secretary, Henrik Hedberg back shows that the defense minister ruled on the unit price per plane:

We have neither the schweiska or Swedish media commented on the price per plane, but we have been clear that if the running costs are included, the cost in Sweden to three billion per year, he says.

Karin Enstrom been in contact with Tagesschau is completely accurate, he says.

Switzerland plans to buy 22 aircraft, while the Swedish government proposes buying 40-60 plan. While advocates Supreme Commander Sverker Goranson Sweden to acquire the Gripen E fleet of 60 planes.

Swedish Defence Materiel Administration is currently negotiating with Saab about the price of the Swedish aircraft. Martin Kruse, project manager for the Gripen, at the FMV, told Ny Teknik that negotiations are planned to be completed during the first half of 2013. Before that he can not comment on the price.

A clear majority in parliament is expected to vote this afternoon through the historic decision. Both the Alliance government and the Social Democrats and the Sweden Democrats have announced that they intend to vote yes.

The Social Democrats, however, want to invest 300 million more per year for ten years. This is in addition to the increase in appropriations of 300 million per year for two years and 200 million per year in eight years, as the government suggests.

By: Monica Kleja 
Mail reporter




Ankit Kumar said:


> http://mobile2.bernerzeitung.ch/articles/551af635ab5c378d78000348
> This one too



Wednesday, September 26, 2012 15:31
*Switzerland will have converted Occasions Gripen
News The draft Federal Council dispatch on the procurement of Gripen contains some surprises.*






About 24,000 francs per flight hour: How much does the Gripen E, as can be calculated from a message draft of the Bundesrat to the Gripen procurement. (Photo: Keystone)
 13
Me Gafner


The officially unpublished Federal Council dispatch on buying a new fighter aircraft carries political dynamite. In well 50-page paper that the "Basler Zeitung" in draft, the Bundesrat, was suddenly no longer "new" or "newly developed" aircraft, but only of a "development of the proven Gripen A and C".This description is consistent with the wording of the Swedish Government. This holds in its recent draft state budget 2013 which, Sweden wants 40 to 60 Gripen E "develop and rebuild," if Switzerland or another country at least 20 Gripen E buy. As a basis for the reconstruction (Swedish: Ombyggnad) are "old" Jets version Gripen C. Pro new Gripen E to use an old Gripen C.

*Like new?*
In design is marked "internal", the Federal Council writes in the chapter "criteria": "The aircraft will be procured and operated in the same hardware and software version, as they will be in the air force of the producing country in use . "Thus, previous data of Federal Councillor Ueli Maurer, army chief André Blattmann, Luftwaffe chief Markus Gygax and Armasuisse project Jürg Weber prove imprecise, which Switzerland will receive a new combat aircraft from Sweden.

The sub-committee of the National Council under the presidency of SVP National Thomas Hurter is still considered in its investigation report on the controversial jet purchase on August 20, 2012 of the Switzerland get new aircraft. The Commission, considering after surveys of various stakeholders on page 26 of its report that: "In particular, the representatives of the Air Force have pointed to the fact that the Gripen C / D can not be upgraded in a Gripen E / F. The Gripen E / F must be developed from scratch. "Based on the statements of the VBS representatives the subcommission ours look great majority also as a new aircraft.

*Costs of 3.346 billion*
From the message with date of 6 September 2012, shows that the Gripen project, the bottom line is more expensive than previously stated. For a fixed price of 3.126 billion francs for the purchase of 22 Gripen E 220 million Swiss francs will be added - for the planned sale of eleven Gripen C / D over five years.The cost of the five-year operation of this Mietjets not included, is thus given a total package price of 3.346 billion francs.

The draft procurement Embassy cleans up well with the partially existing idea that the Gripen E is suitable militia. "For use only professional military pilots come and no militia pilots questioned," is clearly on page 30 of the paper. And later we read that are provided for operating the Gripen 156 FTEs. These are made up of 41 professional military pilots, six professional officers "for the basic skills aerial reconnaissance and combat ground targets", three professional NCOs for training and 106 civilian agencies for ground staff.

*Assembly takes place in Sweden*
Looking up in the Gripen project has largely of government-owned defense contractor RUAG Aviation must be concluded from the draft. Contrary to the Offer conditions, which Switzerland has provided the three-party EADS, Dassault and Saab in competition of 2007/2008, the production of the Gripen E for Switzerland is now entirely in Sweden. That assembly of the new jets in Switzerland was once a condition is previously held in the Embassy nowhere. All it means is: "A final assembly in Switzerland has been tested, but not justifiable rejected as economically. An important reason for the waiver of a final assembly in Switzerland are the low production rate and the small numbers. "

Exactly this point was questioned during the evaluation by the losing party, as the "Basler Zeitung" white. However, they were allowed Armasuisse make an offer that included an assembly in the country of origin and thus a significantly lower rate would have helped. "Alternatively," sees the Bundesrat before now, "that cooperates with a core team of Air Force and RUAG employees the manufacturer Saab to the final assembly and so to a large extent the know-how can build, which had acquired it at a final assembly in Switzerland . "on the subject of financial risk, it means that the Swedish government took the Gripen e offers binding in a clearly defined implementation at a fixed price. "In order for the Swedish government bears the financial risk for the Gripen E." why would the financial risk (for Switzerland) judged to be small.

*unclear timetable*
By contrast, the Federal judges the 'deadlines risk "as a medium. "On the one hand, delays in developing the Gripen not be excluded." On the other hand, the approval of the Swedish Gripen program located in the political process. This could not be ruled out that greater changes in schedule, expected the Federal Council. The Air Force plane to establish the operational readiness gradually. Until all the contemplated skills for air combat, reconnaissance and combat ground targets are available, it will take until the year 2024th

It also covers operating costs in the draft: CHF 102 million per year (6 million francs for the operation of real estate included). The operating costs per hour are not explicitly mentioned in the submission. This amount, considering the listed annual costs for personnel (24 million), maintenance (51 million) and fuel (21 million), more so than Saab presented journalists in previous presentations. The calculation of operating costs per hour determines the Switzerland a flight operating time of 180 hours per year basis. At 22 Gripen, this results in a cost of 24'242 CHF per flight hour. Saab announced during a presentation in Sweden at a price of less than CHF 10,000. Here still gives explanation needed.

(Basler newspaper)

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## raktaka

Dash said:


> Then please tell me what it is and I will be grateful.



How is that relevant ?


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## Ankit Kumar

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Swedish Gripen E allegedly more expensive than Swiss*
> By: Monica Kleja
> Published December 11, 2012 13:3875 Comments
> Sweden have to pay 15-30 percent more for new Gripen E compared with Switzerland, says Swiss telsion. Today Tuesday the parliament vote on the purchase of the new Gripen system.
> 
> In the afternoon, after 15:30, keeps parliament a vote on the issue of Sweden should invest in renovating the Gripen system and buy 40-60 copies of the new Gripen E, or super-ja. Let the vote on Start - riksdagen.se
> 
> According to a Swiss television program Tagesschau research becomes more expensive to buy the plane for the Swedish taxpayers than the Swiss. Sweden is said to have to buy new Gripen E at a price that is 15-30 percent higher per plane, compared with the cost of taxpayers in Switzerland.
> 
> The price per plane to Switzerland is fixed and land of 100 million Swiss francs, or 745 million Swedish kronor for the Gripen E-flat, according Tagesschau.
> 
> Sweden, however, is said to buy the plane for between 115 and 130 million Swiss francs (860-970 million) per plane. The number varies depending on the equipment Sweden decide to buy the plane.
> 
> According Tagesschau be Defense Minister Karin Enstrom has confirmed that Sweden pays more per plane.
> 
> She is reported to have declared: "This price includes the development costs and the building of a new production chain" and that Swedish cooperation with Switzerland will be beneficial for Sweden in the long term.
> 
> Karin Enstrom's press secretary, Henrik Hedberg back shows that the defense minister ruled on the unit price per plane:
> 
> We have neither the schweiska or Swedish media commented on the price per plane, but we have been clear that if the running costs are included, the cost in Sweden to three billion per year, he says.
> 
> Karin Enstrom been in contact with Tagesschau is completely accurate, he says.
> 
> Switzerland plans to buy 22 aircraft, while the Swedish government proposes buying 40-60 plan. While advocates Supreme Commander Sverker Goranson Sweden to acquire the Gripen E fleet of 60 planes.
> 
> Swedish Defence Materiel Administration is currently negotiating with Saab about the price of the Swedish aircraft. Martin Kruse, project manager for the Gripen, at the FMV, told Ny Teknik that negotiations are planned to be completed during the first half of 2013. Before that he can not comment on the price.
> 
> A clear majority in parliament is expected to vote this afternoon through the historic decision. Both the Alliance government and the Social Democrats and the Sweden Democrats have announced that they intend to vote yes.
> 
> The Social Democrats, however, want to invest 300 million more per year for ten years. This is in addition to the increase in appropriations of 300 million per year for two years and 200 million per year in eight years, as the government suggests.
> 
> By: Monica Kleja
> Mail reporter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wednesday, September 26, 2012 15:31
> *Switzerland will have converted Occasions Gripen
> News The draft Federal Council dispatch on the procurement of Gripen contains some surprises.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About 24,000 francs per flight hour: How much does the Gripen E, as can be calculated from a message draft of the Bundesrat to the Gripen procurement. (Photo: Keystone)
> 13
> Me Gafner
> 
> 
> The officially unpublished Federal Council dispatch on buying a new fighter aircraft carries political dynamite. In well 50-page paper that the "Basler Zeitung" in draft, the Bundesrat, was suddenly no longer "new" or "newly developed" aircraft, but only of a "development of the proven Gripen A and C".This description is consistent with the wording of the Swedish Government. This holds in its recent draft state budget 2013 which, Sweden wants 40 to 60 Gripen E "develop and rebuild," if Switzerland or another country at least 20 Gripen E buy. As a basis for the reconstruction (Swedish: Ombyggnad) are "old" Jets version Gripen C. Pro new Gripen E to use an old Gripen C.
> 
> *Like new?*
> In design is marked "internal", the Federal Council writes in the chapter "criteria": "The aircraft will be procured and operated in the same hardware and software version, as they will be in the air force of the producing country in use . "Thus, previous data of Federal Councillor Ueli Maurer, army chief André Blattmann, Luftwaffe chief Markus Gygax and Armasuisse project Jürg Weber prove imprecise, which Switzerland will receive a new combat aircraft from Sweden.
> 
> The sub-committee of the National Council under the presidency of SVP National Thomas Hurter is still considered in its investigation report on the controversial jet purchase on August 20, 2012 of the Switzerland get new aircraft. The Commission, considering after surveys of various stakeholders on page 26 of its report that: "In particular, the representatives of the Air Force have pointed to the fact that the Gripen C / D can not be upgraded in a Gripen E / F. The Gripen E / F must be developed from scratch. "Based on the statements of the VBS representatives the subcommission ours look great majority also as a new aircraft.
> 
> *Costs of 3.346 billion*
> From the message with date of 6 September 2012, shows that the Gripen project, the bottom line is more expensive than previously stated. For a fixed price of 3.126 billion francs for the purchase of 22 Gripen E 220 million Swiss francs will be added - for the planned sale of eleven Gripen C / D over five years.The cost of the five-year operation of this Mietjets not included, is thus given a total package price of 3.346 billion francs.
> 
> The draft procurement Embassy cleans up well with the partially existing idea that the Gripen E is suitable militia. "For use only professional military pilots come and no militia pilots questioned," is clearly on page 30 of the paper. And later we read that are provided for operating the Gripen 156 FTEs. These are made up of 41 professional military pilots, six professional officers "for the basic skills aerial reconnaissance and combat ground targets", three professional NCOs for training and 106 civilian agencies for ground staff.
> 
> *Assembly takes place in Sweden*
> Looking up in the Gripen project has largely of government-owned defense contractor RUAG Aviation must be concluded from the draft. Contrary to the Offer conditions, which Switzerland has provided the three-party EADS, Dassault and Saab in competition of 2007/2008, the production of the Gripen E for Switzerland is now entirely in Sweden. That assembly of the new jets in Switzerland was once a condition is previously held in the Embassy nowhere. All it means is: "A final assembly in Switzerland has been tested, but not justifiable rejected as economically. An important reason for the waiver of a final assembly in Switzerland are the low production rate and the small numbers. "
> 
> Exactly this point was questioned during the evaluation by the losing party, as the "Basler Zeitung" white. However, they were allowed Armasuisse make an offer that included an assembly in the country of origin and thus a significantly lower rate would have helped. "Alternatively," sees the Bundesrat before now, "that cooperates with a core team of Air Force and RUAG employees the manufacturer Saab to the final assembly and so to a large extent the know-how can build, which had acquired it at a final assembly in Switzerland . "on the subject of financial risk, it means that the Swedish government took the Gripen e offers binding in a clearly defined implementation at a fixed price. "In order for the Swedish government bears the financial risk for the Gripen E." why would the financial risk (for Switzerland) judged to be small.
> 
> *unclear timetable*
> By contrast, the Federal judges the 'deadlines risk "as a medium. "On the one hand, delays in developing the Gripen not be excluded." On the other hand, the approval of the Swedish Gripen program located in the political process. This could not be ruled out that greater changes in schedule, expected the Federal Council. The Air Force plane to establish the operational readiness gradually. Until all the contemplated skills for air combat, reconnaissance and combat ground targets are available, it will take until the year 2024th
> 
> It also covers operating costs in the draft: CHF 102 million per year (6 million francs for the operation of real estate included). The operating costs per hour are not explicitly mentioned in the submission. This amount, considering the listed annual costs for personnel (24 million), maintenance (51 million) and fuel (21 million), more so than Saab presented journalists in previous presentations. The calculation of operating costs per hour determines the Switzerland a flight operating time of 180 hours per year basis. At 22 Gripen, this results in a cost of 24'242 CHF per flight hour. Saab announced during a presentation in Sweden at a price of less than CHF 10,000. Here still gives explanation needed.
> 
> (Basler newspaper)



Apart from that one modified TD, I haven't known any E/F/NG flying or even being built. 

Now keeping my personal views A part, 

If they are able to give us NG or whatever they call it with weapons and training below 100 million dollars,I will be well and happy for getting rid of Migs.

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## Dash

raktaka said:


> How is that relevant ?



It is relevant, at least the ToT part. As that will form our basis of discussion of what Gripen possibly could bring on execution. Your proximity with HAL will help us connect the missing dots.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

raktaka said:


> What you fail to recognize is that for Good & Services IN INDIA the true value is measured in PPP. Which in India's case is 3.7 X the USD.
> 
> So in effect HAL productivity is =80976 x 3.7 = *2,99,611 $ *which is not so different from Dassault.
> 
> To put it in perspective, Dassault Only manufactures around 24 Rafale per year and 12 Falcon per year. (correct me about falcon if I am wrong) i.e *36 Aircraft's per year.*
> 
> Just because you cannot see something, does't mean it does not exist.


Who say that I cannot see the PPP productivity of HAL?
You said that HAL was ahead of Dassault in $ productivity, not in PPP $ productivity because normally planes are not sold in $ PPP.
And you are wrong on the planes manufactured by Dassault they manufacture 11 Rafale (soon 33) and 70 Falcon but these plane are world class aircraft developped in the company.
More Dassault System is a 100% subsidiary of Dassault providing CATIA which is used by all aerospace companies to design their planes.
*Revenue* €2.346 billion (2014)
*Number of employees *13,345
And Dassault also holds 25% of Thales

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## randomradio

raktaka said:


> All it proves is that either,
> 
> 1. Dassault DID NOT DO DUE DILIGENCE. ..... or
> 
> 2. Dassault DID do due diligence but then decided to CON India.
> 
> HAL as partner was clearly spelled out in the RFP so common sense dictate ANYONE would first seek information from HAL regarding its overheads before calculating the final cost and submitting the proposal.
> 
> You have admitted to Dassault seeking to revising the L1 after winning the contest. A CLEAR breach of rules and norms. I don't see why that should elicit any sympathy or empathy.
> 
> Then to cover up this INCOMPETENCE and blame HAL is Cheeky.



There are two things you haven't taken into consideration.

The Dassault price for manufacturing Rafales was based on Dassault's manpower requirements but HAL's cost per hour. HAL increased the manpower requirements to 2.7 times. So French manpower costs were not the metric.

And there's an article somewhere where the HAL Chief clarifies that HAL employees are not as productive as Dassault's employees. Dassault + all contractor's total manpower requirement is 9000 for 36 aircraft per year. They all take an off in August, so they work only 11 months, so 33 aircraft/year. HAL has a DPSU culture where they higher more than necessary manpower whereas Dassault's factories are more automated hence requiring more expenditure in automation which HAL wasn't willing to do.



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> It is because Parrikar wants Mig-35



In fact, the flyaway cost of a Su-35 in Russia is $15M. The Mig-35 is likely around the same price.

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## Ankit Kumar

randomradio said:


> In fact, the flyaway cost of a Su-35 in Russia is $15M. The Mig-35 is likely around the same price.



I guess you mean 45 million us dollars?


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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> @randomradio
> Can you help with some data about Light Stealth Aircraft you talked about.. Wish to understand if Gripen NG is superior or inferior to that product potential?



Gripen NG will be significantly inferior to the LSA in many aspects. According to the creator, LSA will have a stealth airframe, supercruise, very high TWR, very high range (matching Su-30MKI), large IWBs etc. It will be powered by the EJ230.

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## raktaka

Dash said:


> It is relevant, at least the ToT part. As that will form our basis of discussion of what Gripen possibly could bring on execution. Your proximity with HAL will help us connect the missing dots.



Grippen production line will provide IAF with a modern proven aircraft which is cheap and provides great value. HAL productivity or Production has nothing to do with this. Which is why its Tactical and not strategic.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

Ankit Kumar said:


> I guess you mean 45 million us dollars?


Not there has been a sharp devaluation of the ruble

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## randomradio

Ankit Kumar said:


> I guess you mean 45 million us dollars?



No, now the cost of a Su-35 is $15M. Ruble has fallen 250%.

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## Ankit Kumar

raktaka said:


> Grippen production line will provide IAF with a modern proven aircraft which is cheap and provides great value. HAL productivity or Production has nothing to do with this. Which is why its Tactical and not strategic.



more than 90million dollars for aircraft excluding weapons, training, infrastructure is not at all cheap. Or is it?


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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> Gripen NG will be significantly inferior to the LSA in many aspects. According to the creator, LSA will have a stealth airframe, supercruise, very high TWR, very high range (matching Su-30MKI), large IWBs etc. It will be powered by the EJ230.



Thanks a lot.. So based on this we are claiming (using claiming bcz we dont have a real bird a case similar to Gripen NG i guess but work is on in case of Gripen) that LSA is superior to Gripen NG

Any estimation of what price band? Perhaps also about its weapon points..
Just to guesstimate what could be flyaway + weapons cost in USD?
Also will the line in India will have any Indian partner? Is it feasible under MII banner?

Also in a honest opinion, if you have to choose between LSA, Gripen NG and say throw in F16s/F18s (discounting 18 being twin engine), what thoughts comes to your mind?

Assuming only 1 slot is available for MII and other is used up by Rafale.. (total 2 slots)


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## Ankit Kumar

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Not there has been a sharp devaluation of the ruble





randomradio said:


> No, now the cost of a Su-35 is $15M. Ruble has fallen 250%.



You mean made in Russia mki will be cheaper than made in India ?


----------



## raktaka

randomradio said:


> There are two things you haven't taken into consideration.
> 
> The Dassault price for manufacturing Rafales was based on Dassault's manpower requirements but HAL's cost per hour. HAL increased the manpower requirements to 2.7 times. So French manpower costs were not the metric.
> 
> And there's an article somewhere where the HAL Chief clarifies that HAL employees are not as productive as Dassault's employees. Dassault + all contractor's total manpower requirement is 9000 for 36 aircraft per year. They all take an off in August, so they work only 11 months, so 33 aircraft/year. HAL has a DPSU culture where they higher more than necessary manpower whereas Dassault's factories are more automated hence requiring more expenditure in automation which HAL wasn't willing to do.



HAL has no reason to go for automation just to compensate for Dassault's oversight. That is an illogical assumption. 

Dassault was required to conduct an inspection / study or sought an report from HAL detailing its production process before submitting the RFP. The onus was on Dassalt since HAL was NOT a joint bidder in the process. It was for Dassault to have sought clarifications or raised objections before the final submission. 

Even if we assume HAL's slower production practices, it is for Dassault to plan for contingencies and do risk mitigation, especially if its a know risk and HAL is an declared stakeholder. 

What HAL can bring to the table, NO other private player can bring. That is pretty much the reality. So its pointless to expect Dassault to tie up with Ambani or Kalyani and reduce price on the Rafale, It just won't happen. Its mission impossible. 

It would have been smarter just to negotiate with HAL and swallow their pride.


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## Picdelamirand-oil



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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> Thanks a lot.. So based on this we are claiming (using claiming bcz we dont have a real bird a case similar to Gripen NG i guess but work is on in case of Gripen) that LSA is superior to Gripen NG
> 
> Any estimation of what price band? Perhaps also about its weapon points..
> Just to guesstimate what could be flyaway + weapons cost in USD?
> Also will the line in India will have any Indian partner? Is it feasible under MII banner?
> 
> Also in a honest opinion, if you have to choose between LSA, Gripen NG and say throw in F16s/F18s (discounting 18 being twin engine), what thoughts comes to your mind?
> 
> Assuming only 1 slot is available for MII and other is used up by Rafale.. (total 2 slots)



If LSA happens, then there won't be a second MMRCA. The price is expected to be much cheaper than Gripen NG. Any weapons can be used, but he's built the IWBs for MICA. The LSA line will be built with an Indian partner, but foreign companies will have to supply engines and avionics. We haven't had any more news for a few weeks now.

But Russian jets are the cheapest now. A Su-35 is half the cost of a LCA.



Ankit Kumar said:


> You mean made in Russia mki will be cheaper than made in India ?



Probably 6 times cheaper.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

raktaka said:


> HAL has no reason to go for automation just to compensate for Dassault's oversight. That is an illogical assumption.
> 
> Dassault was required to conduct an inspection / study or sought an report from HAL detailing its production process before submitting the RFP. The onus was on Dassalt since HAL was NOT a joint bidder in the process. It was for Dassault to have sought clarifications or raised objections before the final submission.
> 
> Even if we assume HAL's slower production practices, it is for Dassault to plan for contingencies and do risk mitigation, especially if its a know risk and HAL is an declared stakeholder.
> 
> What HAL can bring to the table, NO other private player can bring. That is pretty much the reality. So its pointless to expect Dassault to tie up with Ambani or Kalyani and reduce price on the Rafale, It just won't happen. Its mission impossible.
> 
> It would have been smarter just to negotiate with HAL and swallow their pride.


Dassault was required to give ToT, the new approach is part of ToT but HAL refused it, HAL chooses outmoded methods.


----------



## Ankit Kumar

randomradio said:


> If LSA happens, then there won't be a second MMRCA. The price is expected to be much cheaper than Gripen NG. Any weapons can be used, but he's built the IWBs for MICA. The LSA line will be built with an Indian partner, but foreign companies will have to supply engines and avionics. We haven't had any more news for a few weeks now.
> 
> But Russian jets are the cheapest now. A Su-35 is half the cost of a LCA.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably 6 times cheaper.



Time for India to order 2 Squadrons of Su30 from Russian production lines. And save ~30 million US dollars. Total near about ~1 billion dollar.... that's big. 

Learnt something new , and thus grew wiser and older .


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## Dash

raktaka said:


> *Grippen production line* will provide IAF with a modern proven aircraft which is cheap and provides great value. HAL productivity or Production has nothing to do with this. Which is why its Tactical and not strategic.



Call it Gripen assembly line and I will agree. Gripen is a dead jet even after India buys 100. No future and nothing to gain from it. We already know how to build a pylon, a wing, a fuselage, a rudder, a tail and all things that had gone to LCA. Gripen brings nothing more to table apart from engine tech which is GE. So lets call it a day for ToT.

Second, If you really need a fighter (I am not sure what MP is saying here), which would be logically a better choice for many things I would opt for Boeing SH. They have a technology base and they are good one in offsets. If and only if there will be a second fighter. It should be Hornet. Gripen does more damage than healing. LCA can do all the things Gripen is doing. LCA mk2 is the Gripen. Adding that is better for IAF and India.

I am not saying Gripen is a bad fighter or anything. I just dont see any value in getting that one, just because we have to have some numbers. and I personally feel Parikar was saying the options available both for fighter and budget.

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## raktaka

Ankit Kumar said:


> more than 90million dollars for aircraft excluding weapons, training, infrastructure is not at all cheap. Or is it?



If you want to play with the Big boys, ................ cheap is not an option. 

Funding your own R&D is.


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## Taygibay

Darn, what an amazing source of gems ...



raktaka said:


> 100% of Rafale is not French either.


The only essential non-French part of the Rafale is the ejection seat from Martin-Baker. If you understand anything about their business, you know it does not constitute a potential sanction or ToT problem.
Then there is a short list of imported parts that fall under standard commercial protections not Cismoa et al.
And plans exist to source them in France if the need arises.



raktaka said:


> The fact that Brazil brought Grippen should put all speculation to rest. It was clearly the one that gave most value for money. (including local production)


Yes, that one you got but Switzerland or all the other contests lost by the Gripen you conveniently missed!
At this point, it's not selective memory, it's flocking selective amnesia! I find it a marker of bad faith.



raktaka said:


> MKI is strategic because we have 100% ToT and local manufacturing from raw materials.



You wish!

Thnx for the chuckles, Tay.

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## raktaka

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Dassault was required to give ToT, the new approach is part of ToT but HAL refused it, HAL chooses outmoded methods.



How is it ToT if HAL has to pay for it ?  

HAL can pretty much buy the stuff from the market.


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## Dash

@raktaka and @Picdelamirand-oil 
Just sharing some info for you for what ToT and how tough it is when it comes to execution of any such and how IP will be handled and why Dassult wanted Reliance as partner and not HAL (referring to your above post).

X posting from another forum.



> After developing a latest missile decoy system for fighter planes, the Defence Research and Development (DRDO) is now desperately scouting for a metal casing for the product. Available right in the backyard at Nagpur, the component is made in India, but not made for India. As a result, the agency is forced to look for other vendors in private sector, but has not succeeded so far.
> 
> Pune-based High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL), a unit under DRDO, has put on display the latest infrared counter measure disruptive system (CDMS) at the Vignyan Bharti exhibition held at VNIT campus. The event is aimed at bringing industries and researchers together. The user trials of the CDMS have proven that the chemical composition, which diverts the missile attack, is fine, but the metal casing needs to be strengthened.
> 
> At present, Indian Air Force (IAF) is using the systems supplied by UK-based company Chemring Group. It has been learnt by the agency that the UK company buys the metal casings for its product from a Nagpur-based firm. A mid-sized unit, the company also caters to the ordnance factory and specializes in metallics. However, when approached by HEMRL, the local company has denied having any such product. Though it was reconfirmed by the agency’s own intelligence gathering and through the industry sources, that the casings used by Chemring’s product are from this firm only. The denial has forced HEMRL to look for a different manufacturer. Repeated parleys with the firm have failed, say sources who preferred not to disclose the local company’s name.
> 
> “This is a tricky situation,” say sources related to the affair. The company cannot be compelled to share the technology as it is already under a contractual obligation with the British firm. This is the reason it is believed to be so secretive on the matter. There are all chances that the British company may initiate legal action against the Indian supplier, which makes it as helpless as HEMRL in this case.
> 
> What looks like a small metal box is reported to be the latest missile decoy system developed indigenously. It diverts the attack of the heat seeking missiles which otherwise can accurately hit the target. The present system available with the IAF can be effective against second and third generation missiles. On other hand, the DRDO product is expected to be useful even when the fourth and fifth generation missiles are fired. However, DRDO cannot go ahead till it gets a stronger box to pack the material.
> .

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## randomradio

raktaka said:


> HAL has no reason to go for automation just to compensate for Dassault's oversight. That is an illogical assumption.



I don' think there was any oversight on their part. Dassault's job was to give their estimates based on HAL's prices, which they did. Infrastructure costs were separate. Automation has high startup costs, but they reduce total cost of manufacturing over the long term.

And you get better quality with automation.



> Even if we assume HAL's slower production practices, it is for Dassault to plan for contingencies and do risk mitigation, especially if its a know risk and HAL is an declared stakeholder.



The problem is Dassault has no control over HAL's production. So they cannot mitigate risks. And when Dassault wanted executive control over HAL's Rafale production, it was denied.



> What HAL can bring to the table, NO other private player can bring. That is pretty much the reality. So its pointless to expect Dassault to tie up with Ambani or Kalyani and reduce price on the Rafale, It just won't happen. Its mission impossible.



I don't disagree. That's why Make in India will have less ToT, that will control price. And Dassault will bring in automation in India.



> It would have been smarter just to negotiate with HAL and swallow their pride.



Dassault had practically agreed with everything except for being a guarantor for HAL produced Rafales which they had no control over. HAL agreed to be the guarantor, but MoD rejected that. It was CNC that said Dassault should guarantee quality, even without executive control. You don't have the full picture here.

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## Ankit Kumar

raktaka said:


> If you want to play with the Big boys, ................ cheap is not an option.
> 
> Funding your own R&D is.



That's why Gripen is not a good option. 
F16 is a better option.Poland bought 48 F16 block 52 with all the weapons and training for 3.5 Billion US dollars. 

I would rather take F18 is we really need a second type of aircraft to replace our legacy fighters, rather than a paper aircraft .

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## randomradio

Dash said:


> Call it Gripen assembly line and I will agree. Gripen is a dead jet even after India buys 100. No future and nothing to gain from it. We already know how to build a pylon, a wing, a fuselage, a rudder, a tail and all things that had gone to LCA. Gripen brings nothing more to table apart from engine tech which is GE. So lets call it a day for ToT.
> 
> Second, If you really need a fighter (I am not sure what MP is saying here), which would be logically a better choice for many things I would opt for Boeing SH. They have a technology base and they are good one in offsets. If and only if there will be a second fighter. It should be Hornet. Gripen does more damage than healing. LCA can do all the things Gripen is doing. LCA mk2 is the Gripen. Adding that is better for IAF and India.
> 
> I am not saying Gripen is a bad fighter or anything. I just dont see any value in getting that one, just because we have to have some numbers. and I personally feel Parikar was saying the options available both for fighter and budget.



The purpose of the MMRCA program is now to create an aerospace environment in India in the private sector. So any kind of ToT is useful ToT.



raktaka said:


> How is it ToT if HAL has to pay for it ?
> 
> HAL can pretty much buy the stuff from the market.



That was also an option, buying automated systems from the market through tenders. But what Dassault said was if foreign tools were used, then Rafale would require requalification and certification which would bring more delays. IAF wanted the least amount of delays.

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## Dash

randomradio said:


> The purpose of the MMRCA program is now to create an aerospace environment in India in the private sector. So any kind of ToT is useful ToT.



The question is what kind of that "any kind" of ToT which we dont have and we are looking for.

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## randomradio

Dash said:


> The question is what kind of that "any kind" of ToT which we dont have and we are looking for.



A company like Reliance has no experience in building a full fighter jet. They don't have any ToT.

TASL can also benefit the same way with a second MMRCA line. They don't have much ToT either.

These companies will eventually get OEM status.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

raktaka said:


> How is it ToT if HAL has to pay for it ?
> 
> HAL can pretty much buy the stuff from the market.


You underestimate Dassault methods.

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## randomradio

@Picdelamirand-oil @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @halloweene @Taygibay @Vauban @Armani

There could also be a third MMRCA line, depending on costs. So a Russian jet is practically guaranteed, possibly the Mig-35.

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## raktaka

Taygibay said:


> The only essential non-French part of the Rafale is the ejection seat from Martin-Baker. If you understand anything about their business, you know it does not constitute a potential sanction or ToT problem.
> Then there is a short list of imported parts that fall under standard commercial protections not Cismoa et al.
> And plans exist to source them in France if the need arises.



Nice word play on "essential"  . I am glad you have admitted that the ejection seat and few components are not French which pretty much validates my point. (I am pretty sure most electronic component comes from China)




> Yes, that one you got but Switzerland or all the other contests lost by the Gripen you conveniently missed!
> At this point, it's not selective memory, it's flocking selective amnesia! I find it a marker of bad faith.



LOL... why should I have bad faith. I am not a Sake holder here except by virtue of being an Indian citizen. 



> You wish!
> Thnx for the chuckles, Tay.



How many electronic components in Rafale come from china ? return the favour and Make me laugh.

Except for raw material, 100% of Su30MKI is Made in India.


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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> I would love to hear all of your views.. This is getting a bit more murky unless i am missing something


Does this not in perfectly with what we (and even you) have been discussing in the past few days? Talks are on for the off the shelf Rafales but seperately there is a requirement for a vast number of jets to be made in India for which a different (on the face of it) selection process is on. For the second all of the usual MMRCA bidders are in the running and the decsion will be made by the end of the year. 

To me, Dassualt remains in the best postion BUT they are being told there are other offers on the table and there may even be scope for a second MMRCA production line just to apply that bit more pressure to secure the entire MII part. I truly hope Dassualt grab this opportunity with both hands and do whatever it takes to secure the full MII deal- they will never get such a export opportunity again. The last thing I want to see is 36 Rafales and 200 F-18s, a mixed MMRCA fleet is a complete joke but it could happen should Dassualt drop the ball now.

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## raktaka

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Who say that I cannot see the PPP productivity of HAL?
> You said that HAL was ahead of Dassault in $ productivity, not in PPP $ productivity because normally planes are not sold in $ PPP.
> And you are wrong on the planes manufactured by Dassault they manufacture 11 Rafale (soon 33) and 70 Falcon but these plane are world class aircraft developped in the company.
> More Dassault System is a 100% subsidiary of Dassault providing CATIA which is used by all aerospace companies to design their planes.
> *Revenue* €2.346 billion (2014)
> *Number of employees *13,345
> And Dassault also holds 25% of Thales



Wrong. Aircrafts Made in India are not sold in USD, its sold in PPP, in INR. The productivity due to goods and services in India is always measured in PPP. 

Su 30MKI is no less sophisticated than rafale, LCA is not less sophisticated than a Falcon. that is a pointless brag. 

Unlike the differentiation between Dassault systems and Aviation, HAL does all the prototype building for ADA, DROD and ISRO. 

So you need to add the total employees of Dassault systems and Aviation if you really want to measure productivity w.r.t HAL.


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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> @Picdelamirand-oil @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @halloweene @Taygibay @Vauban @Armani
> 
> There could also be a third MMRCA line, depending on costs. So a Russian jet is practically guaranteed, possibly the Mig-35.


No, rule this out right now. 100% no more Russian jets beyond the MKI and FGFA.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

Taygibay said:


> The only essential non-French part of the Rafale is the ejection seat from Martin-Baker. If you understand anything about their business, you know it does not constitute a potential sanction or ToT problem.
> Then there is a short list of imported parts that fall under standard commercial protections not Cismoa et al.
> And plans exist to source them in France if the need arises.


Even the ejection seat is build in France by 
*SEM MB*
98 T BOULEVARD HELOISE 
95100 ARGENTEUIL
France
Nous contacter | Martin Baker



raktaka said:


> Wrong. Aircrafts Made in India are not sold in USD, its sold in PPP, in INR. The productivity due to goods and services in India is always measured in PPP.
> 
> Su 30MKI is no less sophisticated than rafale, LCA is not less sophisticated than a Falcon. that is a pointless brag.
> 
> Unlike the differentiation between Dassault systems and Aviation, HAL does all the prototype building for ADA, DROD and ISRO.
> 
> So you need to add the total employees of Dassault systems and Aviation if you really want to measure productivity w.r.t HAL.

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> No, rule this out right now. 100% no more Russian jets beyond the MKI and FGFA.



The Indian Govt is preparing for war. They will buy whatever best suits our needs.

Those Rafales are coming. Apart from Rafales, there will be a second western line as long as it is cheaper than Rafale.

The third line would be a Mig-35 line 'cause it could very well cost just $10M flyaway. We can buy 200 jets for $2B. With production and ToT for another $1B. Why miss out on that when the purpose is to create a whole new aerospace industry in India?

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## Picdelamirand-oil

raktaka said:


> How many electronic components in Rafale come from china ? return the favour and Make me laugh.


0%
Our electronic components for Rafale come from Stmicroelectronic Crolles France
STMicroelectronics
It is not allowed to use foreign components for Rafale except if there is a French equivalent.
During prototype phase it was a derogation to use such components, but it was not allowed for serial plane, so you have to develop an equivalent component for the serial.

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## randomradio

raktaka said:


> Except for raw material, 100% of Su30MKI is Made in India.



You have a lot of wrong information even though you claim to work with HAL as a subcontractor.

The cost of raw materials and other equipment is 49% of the cost of manufacture in India. But that's subject to change due to the ruble devaluation and increase in costs of manufacturing by HAL.

In terms of components, 76% of the aircraft is made in India, set to rise to 85% in time. The landing carriage and ejection seat are supplied directly from Russia. 87% of the engine components are made in India, the most exotic materials come from Russia directly for assembly.

The Rafale MMRCA deal was supposed to bring in even more ToT, including manufacturing 100% of the airframe and engine in India. Much more than MKI ToT. In terms of costs, MKI ToT is 51% of the total costs. For MMRCA, it was supposed to be 65%. Only electronics were supposed to have low ToT component. But with MMRCA canceled and GTG initiated, a lot of tech will not be made in India for now. Like the landing carriage will come from France. Such things are meant to reduce costs. But ToT will increase if the Indian companies are able to make components at a lower cost than in France.

Eventually the plan is to even run exports from Indian factories. French subcontractors were saying they would prefer to manufacture Falcon spares over Rafale spares, so it is possible most of the global need for Rafale spares would come from India. So India could eventually end up supporting the entire global Rafale fleet except for ADLA/MN fleet as long as costs are lower. That's the scale of the Rafale business today. Many countries are lining up to buy Rafale now.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Effectively is it not end game for LCA MK2?





Dash said:


> Yes, Gripen is the final nail in the LCA's life size coffin. IAF will effectively close it down. Remember IAF is buying LAC against its will and Gripen is just the damn excuse they were looking for.


There is no way anyone can deny that buying any number of Gripens will kill the LCA outright. Just 1 SQN of Gripens will do that. 

But, this is the reason I don't see it happening. Everyone is making out that the IAF wants the LCA dead, whilst I only partially agree with this I would say it is not for any malcious reasons but that they want the very best and they don't think that is the LCA- right now. But, give it a few years, let the LC enter SQN service, let the sketicism be addressed by first hand expereince and those views in the IAF will change and they will be the most prolific LCA supporters there are- don't forget these are likely to be some of the biggest patriots around, the "Indian tag" will fly (excuse the pun) very well with them. And as the notion goes, pilots eventually end up loving their planes- no matter what it is and will excuse its flaws. So to build up an LCA support base in the IAF it needs to be in service and in large numbers ASAP. One can forgive the IAF for being rather cynical as of now but this will change quite quickly once it is "theirs".

The turning point will be the LCA gaining operational status in the IAF and then the IAF won't be able to praise it highly enough- guaranteed. 

Secondly, do not forget that what the IAF wants/says/thinks has very little weighting on the decsion makers ie the politicans- DM and PM. As polticans, who sees them being willing to kill the LCA in favour of a foriegn product? I mean this is poltical suicide, the oppostion would, rightly, have their heads for such a move. It just can't happen, there is far too much poltical capital invested in the LCA and now "Make in India" intiative- the LCA is the poster child for that scheme as far as defence goes. Has this GoI shown any intent to shun the LCA or kill it off? No. In fact it has been the EXACT OPPOSITE. This GoI has intiated a more effective review process of the LCA and has taken unprecendted steps like sending it to Bahrain (for BIAS 2016) where the Minister for External Affairs no less was present to sing the praises of the LCA. And then there is the news that the DM had got the IAF to accept 100+ LCA MK.1A (as a comprrimise to 20-40 MK.1 and then waiting on the MK.2).

Actions speak louder than words. No way the Gripen is coming to India, it makes no sense on any level.

The turning point will be the LCA gaining operational status in the IAF and then the IAF won't be able to praise it highly enough.


+ friends let's not forget the MMRCA competitor known for spending BY FAR the most in advertisiment in India that continues to this day is not Boeing, Dassualt (they basically don't do any by the way) or the EFT consortium but SAAB. Put the links together. 



Ankit Kumar said:


> If Gripen E/F, then why not Mig35?



There is little interest from anyone (GoI/IAF/MoD) for another twin engined Russian bird that will not address the crippling availability issues across the fighter fleet. Do you think the MiG-35 can promise 90% availability? 1-2 hour turn around times for an engine change? On the spot maintainence (as opposed to being sent to a BRD)? No, no and no again.

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## raktaka

randomradio said:


> I don' think there was any oversight on their part. Dassault's job was to give their estimates based on HAL's prices, which they did. Infrastructure costs were separate. Automation has high startup costs, but they reduce total cost of manufacturing over the long term.
> 
> And you get better quality with automation.



Dassault job was to provide an accurate and workable PROPOSAL for MMRCA. Any and All Due Diligence is SOP. The most obvious fact would be that the estimate will be provided based on EXISTING infrastructure. Not ASSUMED Infrastructure and UNKNOWN cost.



> The problem is Dassault has no control over HAL's production. So they cannot mitigate risks. And when Dassault wanted executive control over HAL's Rafale production, it was denied.



Even if Dassault HAD control over HAL production, how can they mitigate risk ?  What will they do if HAL employees go on strike ? or if equipments and material is stuck in customs or with local vendor ? Can Dassult overwrite Labour rights guaranteed under our constitution if the yhad Executive control over HAL ? 

HAL KNOWS how to operate in India, Dassault DO NOT. Its FOOLISH of Dassalut to demand executive control over HAL. It would Guarantee Failure.



> I don't disagree. That's why Make in India will have less ToT, that will control price. And Dassault will bring in automation in India.



With SAAB there is a greater chance of getting ToT of available tech. They need us as badly as we need them.



> Dassault had practically agreed with everything except for being a guarantor for HAL produced Rafales which they had no control over. HAL agreed to be the guarantor, but MoD rejected that. It was CNC that said Dassault should guarantee quality, even without executive control. You don't have the full picture here.



Not True. How can HAL be held accountable if Dassault refused to share critical production detail or delay sharing tech ? What was the safeguard ? HAL will be blamed for the delay. HAL refused to play ball and take responsibility for delays outside its control and asked Dassault to assume responsibility. 

Same dilemma existed for dassalut. IAF and CNC wanted to know where the buck stopped. IAF should have stepped up and assumed Program Responsibility. It did not. (Something which IN does) 

Are you sure you have the full picture ?


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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> The third line would be a Mig-35 line 'cause it could very well cost just $10M flyaway. We can buy 200 jets for $2B. With production and ToT for another $1B. Why miss out on that when the purpose is to create a whole new aerospace industry in India?


$10m flyaway? Go for 1000 then- $10BN will get you a brand new air force with 55 SQNs, problem solved.

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## Dash

Abingdonboy said:


> they will be the most prolific LCA supporters there are- don't forget these are likely to be some of the biggest patriots around, the "Indian tag" will fly (excuse the pun) very well with them.


Thoda pun may bhi , Looks like the same patriots think Breitling and Ray-Ban dont go hand in hand with Suzuki Alto(LCA) but Rangerover (Rafale)



Abingdonboy said:


> The turning point will be the LCA gaining operational status in the IAF and then the IAF won't be able to praise it highly enough- guaranteed



I am sure it will be



Abingdonboy said:


> LCA and now "Make in India" intiative- the LCA is the poster child for that scheme as far as defence goes. Has this GoI shown any intent to shun the LCA or kill it off? No. In fact it has been the EXACT OPPOSITE.



No disagreement there.

+ You mentioned that IAF considers LCA to be below potential,and thats why it doesnt want to induct a fighter which is not upto the mark. I feel they sabotaged the development process in many ways from their % of contribution, whatever number that may be. They were not upto the speed and mark themselves, while it was getting developed. So the theory of IAF being saint, falls flat.

So even if they cry now, no one's gonna listen..

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## Taygibay

I'm suddenly wondering why I'm trying to sell the Tejas over the Gripen to a bonafide Bharati linked to HAL ...



Yeah, makes no sense! I'll let his more balanced compatriots take care of it!

GL gang, Tay.


P.S. *À* *Pic*, c'est ce que je sous-entendais par /what I meant by how MB conducts business.
delocalize plants and sub-let rights or redraw patents locally until your product is "national".

I just wanted to be discreet in explaining basic industrial stuff to him. One could ask him why
Eurocopter has a plant in the US that makes green machines with an Indian tribe's name.

Of course, that's not the same kind of Indians but it may still work ...

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## raktaka

randomradio said:


> That was also an option, buying automated systems from the market through tenders. But what Dassault said was if foreign tools were used, then Rafale would require requalification and certification which would bring more delays. IAF wanted the least amount of delays.



True, so its not ToT. ToT is proprietary tech. Not infrastructure upgrade.


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## Dash

Taygibay said:


> I'm suddenly wondering why I'm trying to sell the Tejas over the Gripen to a bonafide Bharati linked to HAL ..



You didnt listen when I asked you to have your afternoon nap, see the consequences now... 



Taygibay said:


> Yeah, makes no sense! I'll let his more balanced compatriots take care of it



Sad...I hope you had said "I actually makes sense". It would have been a diplomatic coup for India!! 



Abingdonboy said:


> $10m flyaway? Go for 1000 then- $10BN will get you a brand new air force with 55 SQNs, problem solved.



Main pagla gaya tha post padhke

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## raktaka

randomradio said:


> You have a lot of wrong information even though you claim to work with HAL as a subcontractor.
> 
> The cost of raw materials and other equipment is 49% of the cost of manufacture in India. But that's subject to change due to the ruble devaluation and increase in costs of manufacturing by HAL.
> 
> In terms of components, 76% of the aircraft is made in India, set to rise to 85% in time. The landing carriage and ejection seat are supplied directly from Russia. 87% of the engine components are made in India, the most exotic materials come from Russia directly for assembly.
> 
> The Rafale MMRCA deal was supposed to bring in even more ToT, including manufacturing 100% of the airframe and engine in India. Much more than MKI ToT. In terms of costs, MKI ToT is 51% of the total costs. For MMRCA, it was supposed to be 65%. Only electronics were supposed to have low ToT component. But with MMRCA canceled and GTG initiated, a lot of tech will not be made in India for now. Like the landing carriage will come from France. Such things are meant to reduce costs. But ToT will increase if the Indian companies are able to make components at a lower cost than in France.
> 
> Eventually the plan is to even run exports from Indian factories. French subcontractors were saying they would prefer to manufacture Falcon spares over Rafale spares, so it is possible most of the global need for Rafale spares would come from India. So India could eventually end up supporting the entire global Rafale fleet except for ADLA/MN fleet as long as costs are lower. That's the scale of the Rafale business today. Many countries are lining up to buy Rafale now.



LOL.... I am not a subcontractor. kindly do not assume.



Taygibay said:


> I'm suddenly wondering why I'm trying to sell the Tejas over the Gripen to a bonafide Bharati linked to HAL ...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, makes no sense! I'll let his more balanced compatriots take care of it!
> 
> GL gang, Tay.
> 
> 
> P.S. À Pic, c'est ce que je sous-entendais par /what I meant by how MB conducts business.
> delocalize plants and sub-let rights or redraw patents locally until your product is "national".
> 
> I just wanted to be discreet in explaining basic industrial stuff to him. One could ask him why Eurocopter has a plant in the US that makes green machines with an Indian tribe's name.
> 
> Of course, that's not the same kind of Indians but it may still work ...



Are you talking about me ? I am not a stakeholder in this as I have already clarified.


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## Ankit Kumar

See this

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/699880415859970048
Going for SAAB will mean agreeing to negotiate for 10 more years if we are looking for any type of TOT

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## PARIKRAMA

Ok people here is what i am thinking,,,

Let me imagine here a beautiful scenario..

Imagine there are 3 new lines under MII

Line 1 Rafale
Line 2 Gripen NG/F18s
Line 3 Mig35/Su35.. anything Russian

Now Line 1 Tie up partner is a pvt sector company/ consortium
Line 2 also same as line 1
Line 3 - Russia would insist on HAL

Each of these lines will carry minimum guarantees of at least 100 Jets..
In all probability the line will bear "assembled from Kits" and then may be later licensed production with partial localisation 

So the big question comes here

IF MII liens are decided within next 1 year what will be the price to start these lines

Line 1 Rafales off the shelf with offsets funds MII line for Rafale
Line 2: We need to directly fund the manufacturing line or a similar 36 purchase to fund
Line 3 same case

Imagine Line needs say Euro 3 Bn then x 3 = Euro 9 Bn outlay just for lines (thats offsets)
Imagine another Euro 4 Bn each for all 3 lines off the shelf -- thats Euro 12 Bn

In simple words just to facilitate that line manufacturing is initiated we need to make provision for Euro 9 Bn or USD 10 Bn
Can anybody understand how much money we are talking for a 3 line setup need?

IF we dont do that the 3 lines will require a funding for setup meaning financial cost when borrowed from any financial institution.. Thats of course gonna add up to our purchased cost in case of deferred payments with just signing amount...

So for a successful outlay for MII we need to provision USD 10 Bn within next 12 months to pay for this...

Possible YES, practical NO

I think DM MP is bluffing here just to add pressure..


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## Abingdonboy

Dash said:


> You mentioned that IAF considers LCA to be below potential,and thats why it doesnt want to induct a fighter which is not upto the mark


To be fair, the FOC requirements outlined by the IAF are perfectly reasonable for an aircraft being inducted in 2016- IFR, higher AOA, relatively decent radar detection (Quartz crystal radome required as a result) etc etc.



Dash said:


> I feel they sabotaged the development process in many ways


I think this has been MASSIVELY overstated. The IAF's "moving of goalposts" in the form of updating the ASQRs was just that-updating them to keep them in line with contemporary products.


I've been of the mind for a while now that, once the LCA is in operational service, there will be a large degree of revisionism about the LCA project but most crucially the IAF's role in its development. The IAF setting a high bar through its rigid procurement policy outlining that it won't accept a plane that doesn't meet its FOC requirements was actually the making of a beast of a machine. Look at other projects that have accepted planes into SQN service whilst it had only attained IOC. In the long run the pain of the LCA project will be a major asset rather than a liability and it has forced the ADA to create a truly impressive machine for a first time effort and the foundations are now increidbly strong- look at the Mk.1A that is just a 1-2 years away (rather than 4-5 years away).

One can already see the revisionism setting in preceding, during and since the BIAS 2016 performance.



Dash said:


> So the theory of IAF being saint, falls flat.



I'm not saying that exactly but they aren't the devil either (as some would have you beleive). I am just presenting their perspective, they have a very specific mandate- securing India's skies, and for a long time that hasn't meant supporting Indian efforts (the IN accepted this reality earlier) but simply getting the best possible kit they could. This mindset may be changing now but it is a gradual process that should be expedited with the induction of the LCA. There was little malcious intent behind the IAF's brass stance all of these years, remember that most of them would be former fighter jocks themselves and thus want a fighter with all the "bells and whistles".


Anyway, give it a few years, I know the change in perceptions is coming- once the LCA goes from being "their's" (as in HAL's) to "ours" the IAF will be singing its praises for all to see. Listen to the test pilots of the LCA and whilst they are frank about any of the issues the project has faced thus far, they can't praise "their" bird enough- it's a universal trait of aviators to form such an emotional attatchment to their birds and the "Indianness" of the LCA will simply extenuate this even more.

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## randomradio

raktaka said:


> Dassault job was to provide an accurate and workable PROPOSAL for MMRCA. Any and All Due Diligence is SOP. The most obvious fact would be that the estimate will be provided based on EXISTING infrastructure. Not ASSUMED Infrastructure and UNKNOWN cost.



That's one of the reasons why MMRCA was canceled. The proper procedures were not outlined correctly. Dassault did everything that was asked for, so you have to blame the MoD for incomplete procedure.

That's why Dassault is still in and HAL is out.



> Even if Dassault HAD control over HAL production, how can they mitigate risk ?  What will they do if HAL employees go on strike ? or if equipments and material is stuck in customs or with local vendor ? Can Dassult overwrite Labour rights guaranteed under our constitution if the yhad Executive control over HAL ?



This is outside Dassault's control. This type of risk exists regardless of what HAL or Dassault does. Dassault won't be penalized if the employees stir up problems, that will be HAL's HR department's problem.

Dassault's job was quality, not day to day running of HAL.



> HAL KNOWS how to operate in India, Dassault DO NOT. Its FOOLISH of Dassalut to demand executive control over HAL. It would Guarantee Failure.



Now you know one of the reasons why MMRCA failed. Dassault demanded executive control after CNC said Dassault should deliver quality. Else Dassault would never have asked for it.

_"Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) chairman T Suvarna Raju on Thursday said that HAL is willing to take full responsibility for the Rafales that it manufactures if the contract with French Defence major Dassault is signed. The comment assumes significance in the backdrop of a disagreement between India and Dassault over who would take guarantee for the Rafale fighter jets."_

CNC did not agree to it.



> Not True. How can HAL be held accountable if Dassault refused to share critical production detail or delay sharing tech ? What was the safeguard ? HAL will be blamed for the delay. HAL refused to play ball and take responsibility for delays outside its control and asked Dassault to assume responsibility.



There was inbuilt mechanism to prevent delay in ToT. It was a bit complicated. HAL can blame Dassault for not supplying ToT and Dassault can blame HAL for not absorbing tech in time. A study would determine who was at fault and penalize the right party.

HAL never asked for anything from Dassault. As mentioned above, HAL wanted to be the guarantor.



> IAF should have stepped up and assumed Program Responsibility. It did not. (Something which IN does)



IAF cannot do that. IN cannot either. Only MoD deals with contractors and subcontractors. IAF is simply the end user. IAF tried it once upon a time, and that was rejected. That's when IAF wanted an Air Marshal to lead HAL.
_
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has made a proposal to the government that one of its air marshals be appointed as the chief of the aerospace PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

"We have proposed that a senior IAF three-star officer be considered for the post," IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne told a press conference here.
_
This was rejected by MoD. HAL said IAF doesn't know anything about running an aerospace industry, even though IAF said the USAF does the same, a Lt Gen heads the F-35 program with executive powers.



> Are you sure you have the full picture ?



Far more than you do.

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## Armani

@randomradio @Abingdonboy @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @PARIKRAMA 

*India to select one or more fighter aircraft to be built by the Private sector*

Officially throwing open the contest for fighter aircraft once again, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said that India will select one or two fighter aircraft which will be manufactured locally by a private company under Make in India initiative. This is in addition to the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the production of which is being scaled up.

India and France are in advanced stage of talks to conclude an inter-governmental agreement for the direct purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets. This fighter aircraft will likely be other than the Rafale.

“Under the Make in India process we may have one or two more jet fighter plants in India by the private sector,” Mr. Parrikar said on Tuesday on the sidelines of a job creation summit organised by Wadhwani Foundation.

He said that several proposals are under consideration and “through proper process we may select them to make in India.”

While emphasizing that there will be at least one or two fighter jets that may be selected, Mr. Parrikar said a decision is likely to be taken by year end.

“India has the need for that number of aircraft but this does not mean increasing defence budget to cater to the purchases. This can be done by reducing defence expenditure in other areas,” he stressed.

Mr. Parrikar said his ministry is in an advanced stage of giving approval to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for setting up a second assembly line for the LCA to increase the production rate from eight to 16 aircraft per year.

The Air Force is expected to induct over 100 of the improved LCA which will feature an Advanced Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, mid-air refuelling and improved electronic warfare suite in addition to other minor improvements.

Stating that HAL has currently streamlined the assembly line for production of eight aircraft per year, Mr. Parrikar said that this will absorb between 10,000 to 20,000 people in the full ecosystem.

Even as the Rafale talks are on, Mr. Parrikar had said that it is not a replacement for the much smaller MIGs which are now being phased out. With this, companies who lost out in the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft contest (MMRCA) have been pitching their aircraft in anticipation of a comeback into the race.

Boeing and Lockheed Martin of the U.S. and Saab of Sweden have recently offered to establish manufacturing plants in India and transfer technology if their fighter aircraft were selected for the Indian Air Force.

--

I can't post the link, do a Google search of the title if you want. It's on defencenews.in

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## randomradio

raktaka said:


> True, so its not ToT. ToT is proprietary tech. Not infrastructure upgrade.



No, tools are not part of ToT. But the the usage of tools to manufacture components to the right specifications was part of ToT. If you use different tools, then HAL would have to reinvent the production process and then have the aircraft certified in France. There is also a chance that HAL could fail the certification process. Want to take such a risk?


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## PARIKRAMA

Armani said:


> @randomradio @Abingdonboy @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @PARIKRAMA
> 
> *India to select one or more fighter aircraft to be built by the Private sector*
> 
> Officially throwing open the contest for fighter aircraft once again, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said that India will select one or two fighter aircraft which will be manufactured locally by a private company under Make in India initiative. This is in addition to the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the production of which is being scaled up.
> 
> India and France are in advanced stage of talks to conclude an inter-governmental agreement for the direct purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets. This fighter aircraft will likely be other than the Rafale.
> 
> “Under the Make in India process we may have one or two more jet fighter plants in India by the private sector,” Mr. Parrikar said on Tuesday on the sidelines of a job creation summit organised by Wadhwani Foundation.
> 
> He said that several proposals are under consideration and “through proper process we may select them to make in India.”
> 
> While emphasizing that there will be at least one or two fighter jets that may be selected, Mr. Parrikar said a decision is likely to be taken by year end.
> 
> “India has the need for that number of aircraft but this does not mean increasing defence budget to cater to the purchases. This can be done by reducing defence expenditure in other areas,” he stressed.
> 
> Mr. Parrikar said his ministry is in an advanced stage of giving approval to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for setting up a second assembly line for the LCA to increase the production rate from eight to 16 aircraft per year.
> 
> The Air Force is expected to induct over 100 of the improved LCA which will feature an Advanced Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, mid-air refuelling and improved electronic warfare suite in addition to other minor improvements.
> 
> Stating that HAL has currently streamlined the assembly line for production of eight aircraft per year, Mr. Parrikar said that this will absorb between 10,000 to 20,000 people in the full ecosystem.
> 
> Even as the Rafale talks are on, Mr. Parrikar had said that it is not a replacement for the much smaller MIGs which are now being phased out. With this, companies who lost out in the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft contest (MMRCA) have been pitching their aircraft in anticipation of a comeback into the race.
> 
> Boeing and Lockheed Martin of the U.S. and Saab of Sweden have recently offered to establish manufacturing plants in India and transfer technology if their fighter aircraft were selected for the Indian Air Force.
> 
> --
> 
> I can't post the link, do a Google search of the title if you want. It's on defencenews.in



We are discussing that only Bro and going hammer and tongs over last 3 or more pages...

What you feel after reading this news.. Do share your views and join the discussion..

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## Dash

PARIKRAMA said:


> I think DM MP is bluffing here just to add pressure..



Thats what I said, when I said I am not sure what he is saying here while staying in budget.

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> $10m flyaway? Go for 1000 then- $10BN will get you a brand new air force with 55 SQNs, problem solved.



Wish it were that simple. Haha.


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## Taygibay

I saw it this morning mate but it makes little sense.
I'll wait for precisions but it came through your local source here :
Private Sector to Make Fighter Jets for India by Year-End: Defence Minister | Indian Defence News

Just check that link, people!
Here are his quotes :
_Asked if this meant HAL will set up more plants, Parrikar said, "It is private sector which will be required to supply to the air force. We need fighters. We may encourage...there are proposals."
Parrikar said yesterday through "proper process", by year end "we might select few aircraft to Make in India. Which one? I don't commit. But there will be at least one, may be two also."
_
That's because he said more PLANTS were coming not more aircraft types.
Plants, not planes!

Again a media spin doctors' embellishment IMHoO.

Have a great day, Tay.

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## Armani

randomradio said:


> @Picdelamirand-oil @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @halloweene @Taygibay @Vauban @Armani
> 
> There could also be a third MMRCA line, depending on costs. So a Russian jet is practically guaranteed, possibly the Mig-35.



If a 3rd line materializes, there'll be a whole bunch of possibilities on the table.

Line #1 - Rafale
Line #2 - Light MRCA, possibly Gripen or LSA
Line #3 - MiG-35??

But honestly, I don't see the 3rd line for MMRCA coming. Atleast not yet. Why because even by the time the 2nd MRCA begins local production, the FGFA will be entering service and AMCA could be test-flying. Don't you think the lobby would be too hard to concentrate more on 5th gen developments?

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## raktaka

randomradio said:


> That's one of the reasons why MMRCA was canceled. The proper procedures were not outlined correctly. Dassault did everything that was asked for, so you have to blame the MoD for incomplete procedure.
> 
> That's why Dassault is still in and HAL is out.



HAL will crawl back in, Dassault will find it difficult. The new MMRCA requirement is proof of that.



> This is outside Dassault's control. This type of risk exists regardless of what HAL or Dassault does. Dassault won't be penalized if the employees stir up problems, that will be HAL's HR department's problem.
> 
> Dassault's job was quality, not day to day running of HAL.



How can assuming executive control over HAL ensure that ? It cannot. Its DGAQA which is the quality assurance and inspection agency. Dassault could have partnered with them and posted their trained employees as honorary DGAQA inspectors. Something similar happens in the US.



> Now you know one of the reasons why MMRCA failed. Dassault demanded executive control after CNC said Dassault should deliver quality. Else Dassault would never have asked for it.
> 
> _"Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) chairman T Suvarna Raju on Thursday said that HAL is willing to take full responsibility for the Rafales that it manufactures if the contract with French Defence major Dassault is signed. The comment assumes significance in the backdrop of a disagreement between India and Dassault over who would take guarantee for the Rafale fighter jets."_
> 
> CNC did not agree to it.



IF CNC did not agree, there would have been a very solid Rational behind it. What was that ?



> There was inbuilt mechanism to prevent delay in ToT. It was a bit complicated. HAL can blame Dassault for not supplying ToT and Dassault can blame HAL for not absorbing tech in time. A study would determine who was at fault and penalize the right party.
> 
> HAL never asked for anything from Dassault. As mentioned above, HAL wanted to be the guarantor.



ok.



> IAF cannot do that. IN cannot either. Only MoD deals with contractors and subcontractors. IAF is simply the end user. IAF tried it once upon a time, and that was rejected. That's when IAF wanted an Air Marshal to lead HAL.
> _
> The Indian Air Force (IAF) has made a proposal to the government that one of its air marshals be appointed as the chief of the aerospace PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
> 
> "We have proposed that a senior IAF three-star officer be considered for the post," IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne told a press conference here.
> _
> This was rejected by MoD. HAL said IAF doesn't know anything about running an aerospace industry, even though IAF said the USAF does the same, a Lt Gen heads the F-35 program with executive powers.



Wrong. I have work with both IN and IAF and can say with personal experience that working with IN is a FAR FAR more pleasurable experience than working with IAF. I have managed programs for them both and I have seen how IN assumes responsibility and seeks to find creative solution and demonstrate impressive leadership and Program Management. IAF OTOH demonstrate arrogance, high handedness and act as if they are doing you a favour and then bitch and cry when things don't go their way.

IAF should have appointed an officer as Program Manager and not as Chief of HAL  That is what IN does. It does not demand they be made head of Mazgoan dock 



> Far more than you do.



I am not interested in a dick measuring contest. I am happy if you do. I acknowledge you as a very knowledgeable member.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> I think DM MP is bluffing here just to add pressure..


I've said it before- he is letting his inexpereince show IMO and adopting negotiation tactics that seem to be inspired by the fanboys on defence forums. 

It might payoff but it also might explode in his (and India's) face and lead to a(nother) total mess.

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## randomradio

Armani said:


> If a 3rd line materializes, there'll be a whole bunch of possibilities on the table.
> 
> Line #1 - Rafale
> Line #2 - Light MRCA, possibly Gripen or LSA
> Line #3 - MiG-35??
> 
> But honestly, I don't see the 3rd line for MMRCA coming. Atleast not yet. Why because even by the time the 2nd MRCA begins local production, the FGFA will be entering service and AMCA could be test-flying. Don't you think the lobby would be too hard to concentrate more on 5th gen developments?



Yeah, a third line is too much. I would be happy if they select Rafale and Mig-35. The Mig-35 can be connected to the FGFA program, electronics.

The Mig-35 configuration has changed significantly after the MMRCA rejection.

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## Dash

Taygibay said:


> I saw it this morning mate but it makes little sense.
> I'll wait for precisions but it came through your local source here :
> Private Sector to Make Fighter Jets for India by Year-End: Defence Minister | Indian Defence News
> 
> Just check that link, people!
> Here are his quotes :
> _Asked if this meant HAL will set up more plants, Parrikar said, "It is private sector which will be required to supply to the air force. We need fighters. We may encourage...there are proposals."
> Parrikar said yesterday through "proper process", by year end "we might select few aircraft to Make in India. Which one? I don't commit. But there will be at least one, may be two also."
> _
> That's because he said more PLANTS were coming not more aircraft types.
> Plants, not planes!
> 
> Again a media spin doctors' embellishment IMHoO.
> 
> Have a great day, Tay.



Sir, aap party mein late ayeho (hope you understand hindi).. just go back a page or two and you can see how exhausted @PARIKRAMA is. He didnt even have lunch.

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## raktaka

randomradio said:


> No, tools are not part of ToT. But the the usage of tools to manufacture components to the right specifications was part of ToT. If you use different tools, then HAL would have to reinvent the production process and then have the aircraft certified in France. There is also a chance that HAL could fail the certification process. Want to take such a risk?



ToT will be the unique process Dassault has. But IP cannot be claimed under ToT. The manufacturing process would not be considered ToT. 

HAL will have to anyway use a new production process for Rafale and will have to go in for FAI (First Article Inspection) as its SOP. That is not a Risk, its a risk mitigation technique. Product, process and Quality Certification is a must, again that is not a risk but a risk mitigation process.


----------



## randomradio

raktaka said:


> HAL will crawl back in, Dassault will find it difficult. The new MMRCA requirement is proof of that.



The new MMRCA line has nothing to do with Dassault. And it's meant for the private sector. HAL shoul dbe happy with LCA, AMCA and FGFA.



> IF CNC did not agree, there would have been a very solid Rational behind it. What was that ?



They did not trust HAL to deliver quality, so they wanted Dassault to be the guarantor.



> Wrong. I have work with both IN and IAF and can say with personal experience that working with IN is a FAR FAR more pleasurable experience than working with IAF. I have managed programs for them both and I have seen how IN assumes responsibility and seeks to find creative solution and demonstrate impressive leadership and Program Management. IAF OTOH demonstrate arrogance, high handedness and act as if they are doing you a favour and then bitch and cry when things don't go their way.



How does that mean IAF and IN are in control?

IN have program managers, IAF don't. You have a problem right there.

But I agree IN is much better to work with.



> IAF should have appointed an officer as Program Manager and not as Chief of HAL



That also failed back in the 90s.



raktaka said:


> ToT will be the unique process Dassault has. But IP cannot be claimed under ToT. The manufacturing process would not be considered ToT.



There is no IP in ToT. Dassault is giving a license, not IP.



> HAL will have to anyway use a new production process for Rafale and will have to go in for FAI (First Article Inspection) as its SOP. That is not a Risk, its a risk mitigation technique. Product, process and Quality Certification is a must, again that is not a risk but a risk mitigation process.



Dassault gave two choices-
-Do what we tell you to do and get Rafales quickly.
-Do what you want and have the aircraft re-certified.

HAL was allowed to choose. But of course, neither happened.

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## Armani

randomradio said:


> Yeah, a third line is too much. I would be happy if they select Rafale and Mig-35. The Mig-35 can be connected to the FGFA program, electronics.
> 
> The Mig-35 configuration has changed significantly after the MMRCA rejection.



I'm starting to think...what can we get for IN's MiG-29K MLU? For sure we can incorporate the FGA-29 AESA with GaN, the new OLS systems, maybe uprated engines?

I don't know about ToT (we can get enough to upgrade the planes in India much like M2K-5) but, as far as having pure technology goes...there doesn't seem to be much that the MiG-35 could get us that a potential 29K MLU wouldn't.

We gotta play smart with the purchases and the FGFA program combined with our already-inducted 29K fleet can get us viable access to both Tikhomirov and Phazotron-developed radars, as well as Saturn/Lyulka and Klimov engine techs. Can't do too many favors to the Russians. I'd say we should fully leverage what we have already committed to - that alone would get us a long way.


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## Didact

PARIKRAMA said:


> Ok people here is what i am thinking,,,
> 
> Let me imagine here a beautiful scenario..
> 
> Imagine there are 3 new lines under MII
> 
> Line 1 Rafale
> Line 2 Gripen NG/F18s
> Line 3 Mig35/Su35.. anything Russian
> 
> Now Line 1 Tie up partner is a pvt sector company/ consortium
> Line 2 also same as line 1
> Line 3 - Russia would insist on HAL
> 
> Each of these lines will carry minimum guarantees of at least 100 Jets..
> In all probability the line will bear "assembled from Kits" and then may be later licensed production with partial localisation
> 
> So the big question comes here
> 
> IF MII liens are decided within next 1 year what will be the price to start these lines
> 
> Line 1 Rafales off the shelf with offsets funds MII line for Rafale
> Line 2: We need to directly fund the manufacturing line or a similar 36 purchase to fund
> Line 3 same case
> 
> Imagine Line needs say Euro 3 Bn then x 3 = Euro 9 Bn outlay just for lines (thats offsets)
> Imagine another Euro 4 Bn each for all 3 lines off the shelf -- thats Euro 12 Bn
> 
> In simple words just to facilitate that line manufacturing is initiated we need to make provision for Euro 9 Bn or USD 10 Bn
> Can anybody understand how much money we are talking for a 3 line setup need?
> 
> IF we dont do that the 3 lines will require a funding for setup meaning financial cost when borrowed from any financial institution.. Thats of course gonna add up to our purchased cost in case of deferred payments with just signing amount...
> 
> So for a successful outlay for MII we need to provision USD 10 Bn within next 12 months to pay for this...
> 
> Possible YES, practical NO
> 
> I think DM MP is bluffing here just to add pressure..



This is purely a bureaucrats description of the MoD.

There are three groups of bureaucrats wrt the Rafale deal in the MoD:

1. The group of (self professed) patriots that are scrupulous about funds and do not want the 'overpriced' Rafale. They are also worried about the CAG doing a 2G on them, and are more worried about their careers being derailed.

2. The group of Nationalists (self avowed) that feel that SH/EF/SAAB/MiG would be the better option. Basically an euphemism for lobbyists funded by the respective corporations, in service of the GOI.

3. The group of Rafale supporters, the tiniest of the groups.

Oh, and in case you are wondering, the IAF is the frustrated, mute spectator; their aviator sunglasses the only instrument to secure their classified anguish from the vultures.

There have been a few veiled allegations of attempts of internal sabotage during the negotiation for the MMRCA, bringing with it the possibility of a corruption scandal.

Then there's the very real possibility of CAG ripping into this proposed deal, using the MMRCA price estimates, similar to what it did in the 2G scam case. This is part of why there is such recalcitrance amongst the bureaucracy in the MoD, even amongst the supporters of the Rafale.

It's a hot potato, unfortunately it only gets hotter as time passes. Juxtapose that with the vested or genuine opposition to this deal, and there is now a very real possibility that if this deal is not cleared by this year end, this will never get through.

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## raktaka

randomradio said:


> The new MMRCA line has nothing to do with Dassault. And it's meant for the private sector. HAL shoul dbe happy with LCA, AMCA and FGFA.



Its demonstrates the failure of Dassault to close the deal when it had the chance. They were exclusive back then, today the field is open once again. 

If Dassault had earned the good will of HAL, HAL would have thrown its weight behind the deal and Dassault would have gained immensely, but they let their pride get to them and antagonized HAL. 



> They did not trust HAL to deliver quality, so they wanted Dassault to be the guarantor.



Which is why I said, IAF should have assumed responsibility and raised to the occasion. They would have been an acceptable candidate for both HAL and Dassault. 



> How does that mean IAF and IN are in control?
> 
> IN have program managers, IAF don't. You have a problem right there.
> 
> But I agree IN is much better to work with.



Control is an illusion in any Program / Project. Final proof of the pudding is in the eating. IN ensures the pudding is delivered and eaten. IAF does not. That is program management in a nutshell. 



> That also failed back in the 90s.



No Doubt. IAF suck in Program Management. Too much ego. 



> There is no IP in ToT. Dassault is not giving a license, not IP.
> 
> Dassault gave two choices-
> -Do what we tell you to do and get Rafales quickly.
> -Do what you want and have the aircraft re-certified.
> 
> HAL was allowed to choose. But of course, neither happened.



Any idea what HAL chose ?


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## randomradio

Armani said:


> I'm starting to think...what can we get for IN's MiG-29K MLU? For sure we can incorporate the FGA-29 AESA with GaN, the new OLS systems, maybe uprated engines?
> 
> I don't know about ToT (we can get enough to upgrade the planes in India much like M2K-5) but, as far as having pure technology goes...there doesn't seem to be much that the MiG-35 could get us that a potential 29K MLU wouldn't.
> 
> We gotta play smart with the purchases and the FGFA program combined with our already-inducted 29K fleet can get us viable access to both Tikhomirov and Phazotron-developed radars, as well as Saturn/Lyulka and Klimov engine techs. Can't do too many favors to the Russians. I'd say we should fully leverage what we have already committed to - that alone would get us a long way.



IAF is happy with the Rafale line. So a second or third line will be a political decision apart from cost.

Don't think too much about the additional lines, it's simply a numbers filler.



raktaka said:


> Its demonstrates the failure of Dassault to close the deal when it had the chance. They were exclusive back then, today the field is open once again.



The field is not open. Rafale line is guaranteed. And numbers have increased.

The field is open for a second line.



> If Dassault had earned the good will of HAL, HAL would have thrown its weight behind the deal and Dassault would have gained immensely, but they let their pride get to them and antagonized HAL.



Dassault had earned the goodwill of HAL. Why do you think HAL stepped up to be the guarantor?



> Which is why I said, IAF should have assumed responsibility and raised to the occasion. They would have been an acceptable candidate for both HAL and Dassault.



They can't. They need to first start by making their own design agency. And like the IN, they need to say only what they design needs to be built. That will ensure all DPSUs will toe their line like they do for IN.



> Any idea what HAL chose ?



??? The Rafale deal closed for them.

Their future projects were supposed to be LCA, AMCA, FGFA and Rafale. Now they have the first three.

It appears Reliance has replaced HAL.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> The Mig-35 configuration has changed significantly after the MMRCA rejection.


Still 0 orders.


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> Still 0 orders.



RuAF plans to order a decent number of Mig-35s. The first order will be between 30-40. The Mig-35s will undergo state trials and an order will be placed before 2018.

And there are other export possibilities for it. Egypt and Iran come to mind.


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## PARIKRAMA

OK took a small break to have a detailed chat with my source.. So following is what he said.

Will start with LCA case..

LCA MK2 is being thought to be brought directly in the from of Gripen NG/F16 line
The case in point being evolution of MK2 will take time and since both these fighters are readily available once line is setup, the production time frame benefits India
Officially HAL has to be happy with MK1 only
This line potential is restricted to pure IAF usage as of now.
The production rate is estimated to churn out 20 jets for India alone.
Gripen NG seems to have a slight advantage here over F16..
Saab talks about a full manufacturing line based out of India to be used for full India needs and all export needs
The line is estimated to have 2/3 for India and 1/3 for Exports for a priority period and first right of induction by India
The overall production per year is expected between 20 (20 India 0 exports) to 30 (20 India 10 exports)
F16 is not preferred as its a clear perception that PAF knows the jet inside out

In case of F18

USA or specifically Mr Carter along with Boeing chief Dennis Muilenburg has suggested a unique structure
Owing to limited orders in hand already, Boeing plans to shift the whole production line (not assembly but entire production) into India by max 2019 end
This line Boeing wants to handle by itself as of now (no tie ups no DPSU)
The whole production right from raw materials will be initially sourced from USA vendors but slowly each of them will be asked to setup a local unit in India and the value chain localisation will occur.
The Boeing F18 SH and a new variant ASH technologies will be available for local absorption as defined by India
In return it wants a confirmed 200+ jets order
Boeing wants to be the chief customer of Indian Navy and contribute 200 of its jets 
Boeing in turn also wishes to share its experience and contribution into AMCA program
Minimum production rate is 24 jets a year for the line to be viable
The same jets can be directly used in EMALS based carriers (read no F-35s)
Mr Carters vision is to let India take everything related to F18 as a whole with even repair, maintenance, spares and other global fleet support to be handled from India only
Mr carter also mentioned about all this outside the 3 agreement structure (CISMOA, BECA, LSA) as long as the strike package is non nuclear in any aspect
Customization requirements will be borne by Boeing without any new charging as its their own assessment that 200 will cover everything
Boeing wishes IAF also to look at F18s for its usage.
In case of EF

EF came as a packaged deal with smart city investments
Basically the smart city investments would get a investment where a part will be used to set up a line for India
The added attraction was the supply chain transfer from the very beginning as part of technology major setting up units in the smart city
In short dual usage meeting both civilian and military goals
Risk being the cost is marginally cheaper (15% versus Rafale) but a smart city or actually a aerospace city is not cutting much ice with Indian planners as supply chain movement seems a bit too much for a smart city kind of a project.
The timeline for the whole project and production start is longer than above 2 options.
Discussion not finalised as of yet

In case of Rafale

Extreme negotiations but first MII line is Rafale (unless something changes drastically)
Its the only line planned for catering both IAF+IN
The local production of Rafale is now even more critical since NSA Doval had requested a non USA fighter to be made ready for SFC duties along with a Russian advanced 5th Generation Jet again to be produced in India
The present SFC duties are handled by a combination of Mirages, Jags (both primary roles) and few MKIs (secondary role). This is to be changed to Rafales (primary)+ MKis (secondary) and later to Rafales + FGFA
There is no issue of any cost part rather the talks are about implementation and structure to maximise benefits for India.with small adjustments of give and take.


@Abingdonboy @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @anant_s @Dash @randomradio @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Armani

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## mirage

randomradio said:


> No, now the cost of a Su-35 is $15M. Ruble has fallen 250%.


250 % ? where did you see that and how do you calculate devaluation against which currency ? we can get 78 ruble for one usd today and price was 61 around september last year . indeed the fall in ruble was biggest against the dollar recently but other currencies also follow suit as rupee too depreciated around 14 % during that time against the dollar . 250 % means one ruble = 152.5 = one $ to be precise by your calculation which is not the case .


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## randomradio

The SH will see the most ToT from the looks of it, but it has to be with an Indian partner. Giving Boeing 100% ownership will defeat the secondary purpose of the line, to create an aerospace industry.



mirage said:


> 250 % ? where did you see that and how do you calculate devaluation against which currency ? we can get 78 ruble for one usd today and price was 61 around september last year . indeed the fall in ruble was biggest against the dollar recently but other currencies also follow suit as rupee too depreciated around 14 % during that time against the dollar . 250 % means one ruble = 152.5 = one $ to be precise by your calculation which is not the case .



Ruble used to be 30 to a USD. Now it's 80. This happened recently. Russia used to be a $2.5T economy, now it's about $1T.

The 250% is not an exact figure, you can say it is 200-250%.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> OK took a small break to have a detailed chat with my source.. So following is what he said.
> 
> Will start with LCA case..
> 
> LCA MK2 is being thought to be brought directly in the from of Gripen NG/F16 line
> The case in point being evolution of MK2 will take time and since both these fighters are readily available once line is setup, the production time frame benefits India
> Officially HAL has to be happy with MK1 only
> This line potential is restricted to pure IAF usage as of now.
> The production rate is estimated to churn out 20 jets for India alone.
> Gripen NG seems to have a slight advantage here over F16..
> Saab talks about a full manufacturing line based out of India to be used for full India needs and all export needs
> The line is estimated to have 2/3 for India and 1/3 for Exports for a priority period and first right of induction by India
> The overall production per year is expected between 20 (20 India 0 exports) to 30 (20 India 10 exports)
> F16 is not preferred as its a clear perception that PAF knows the jet inside out
> 
> In case of F18
> 
> USA or specifically Mr Carter along with Boeing chief Dennis Muilenburg has suggested a unique structure
> Owing to limited orders in hand already, Boeing plans to shift the whole production line (not assembly but entire production) into India by max 2019 end
> This line Boeing wants to handle by itself as of now (no tie ups no DPSU)
> The whole production right from raw materials will be initially sourced from USA vendors but slowly each of them will be asked to setup a local unit in India and the value chain localisation will occur.
> The Boeing F18 SH and a new variant ASH technologies will be available for local absorption as defined by India
> In return it wants a confirmed 200+ jets order
> Boeing wants to be the chief customer of Indian Navy and contribute 200 of its jets
> Boeing in turn also wishes to share its experience and contribution into AMCA program
> Minimum production rate is 24 jets a year for the line to be viable
> The same jets can be directly used in EMALS based carriers (read no F-35s)
> Mr Carters vision is to let India take everything related to F18 as a whole with even repair, maintenance, spares and other global fleet support to be handled from India only
> Mr carter also mentioned about all this outside the 3 agreement structure (CISMOA, BECA, LSA) as long as the strike package is non nuclear in any aspect
> Customization requirements will be borne by Boeing without any new charging as its their own assessment that 200 will cover everything
> Boeing wishes IAF also to look at F18s for its usage.
> In case of EF
> 
> EF came as a packaged deal with smart city investments
> Basically the smart city investments would get a investment where a part will be used to set up a line for India
> The added attraction was the supply chain transfer from the very beginning as part of technology major setting up units in the smart city
> In short dual usage meeting both civilian and military goals
> Risk being the cost is marginally cheaper (15% versus Rafale) but a smart city or actually a aerospace city is not cutting much ice with Indian planners as supply chain movement seems a bit too much for a smart city kind of a project.
> The timeline for the whole project and production start is longer than above 2 options.
> Discussion not finalised as of yet
> 
> In case of Rafale
> 
> Extreme negotiations but first MII line is Rafale (unless something changes drastically)
> Its the only line planned for catering both IAF+IN
> The local production of Rafale is now even more critical since NSA Doval had requested a non USA fighter to be made ready for SFC duties along with a Russian advanced 5th Generation Jet again to be produced in India
> The present SFC duties are handled by a combination of Mirages, Jags (both primary roles) and few MKIs (secondary role). This is to be changed to Rafales (primary)+ MKis (secondary) and later to Rafales + FGFA
> There is no issue of any cost part rather the talks are about implementation and structure to maximise benefits for India.with small adjustments of give and take.
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @anant_s @Dash @randomradio @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Armani



Optimal strategy is to keep with the Rafale buy and stick with the LCA (and devlop the Mk.2), adding all these other elements is just complicating things further and I don't think the user (IAF) is being best served or the nation in the long term- there may be some short term benefits.

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## mirage

randomradio said:


> The SH will see the most ToT from the looks of it, but it has to be with an Indian partner. Giving Boeing 100% ownership will defeat the secondary purpose of the line, to create an aerospace industry.
> 
> 
> 
> Ruble used to be 30 to a USD. Now it's 80. This happened recently. Russia used to be a $2.5T economy, now it's about $1T.
> 
> The 250% is not an exact figure, you can say it is 200-250%.


sir , it was 30 in 2012-13


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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> The SH will see the most ToT from the looks of it, but it has to be with an Indian partner.


No way will the USG agree to that- they never share top end sensitive kit. In every military deal with the US the polticans (US Congress) get involved and muddy the waters, the Rafale deal won't be subject to the same issues.

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## randomradio

mirage said:


> sir , it was 30 in 2012-13



Yes, it was. From 2012-13 to 2015-16, it's dropped down 250%, 30-80. In that same period, INR has dropped about 30%, from 45-50 to 65-70.



Abingdonboy said:


> No way will the USG agree to that- they never share top end sensitive kit. In every military deal with the US the polticans (US Congress) get involved and muddy the waters, the Rafale deal won't be subject to the same issues.



That's probably why Boeing wants 100% ownership.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> That's probably why Boeing wants 100% ownership.


Well this entirely defeats the point of ToT then, and can't even be called ToT, can it?

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## raktaka

Any deal with Boeing is going to be a waste of time and money. We can control SAAB, Boeing will control us. 

Looks like the Rafale is also the Plan B / risk mitigation for FGFA, so it might have a future after all.

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## Abingdonboy

raktaka said:


> Looks like the Rafale is also the Plan B / risk mitigation for FGFA, so it might have a future after all.


People need to stop doing this.

The market in India for fighters in the next 20 years is HUGE and there is more than enough room for the MKI AND LCA AND RAFALE AND FGFA. None are mutually exclusive, all have their respective strenghts and bring about unique benefits to India. India cannot afford not to get any of the above.

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## PARIKRAMA

I did argue the Mark2 case of LCA with my source and he spilled some more which i had not posted before...

Well seems in a review of LCA progress DM MP asked few pointed questions. This meeting was chaired by multiple teams not only just HAL.

The main point asked by DM MP was after LCA Mark1A test flight and handover for production, how long will the whole team take to come out with Mark 2. Members seems to have suggested that a committee be formed to evaluate the timelines and manpower requirements for the additional line requirement. 

DM MP cut them short and said in 6 years at 16 jets a year this order is finished so after Mark 2 should start production from the same line without any downtime. The members still suggested they require a more detailed view and committee to be formed for assessing the realistic dates and plan to be presented to DM.

They suggested that a new jet requires far more testing from prototype phase and thus requires thorough analysis by a committee.
.
DM MP then seems to have asked how long will the committee take to submit the report which people replied about a year.

DM MP did not say anything on this after all this discussion.

This is as per source and i did nt put that in original post owing to the fact that within a week after that Saab people had sent feelers to DM MP via a specific BJP CM that Gripen NG can be produced in 3 years from now under MII and can take care of LCA Mark 2 needs with Indian specific customization. In short Indian side requirements could be met outright and Mark 2 project can be put aside.

DM MP has still not made any decision and is consulting some other senior members (PM NaMo and FM AJ) on this.. 

So I refrained from posting it here previously.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> I did argue the Mark2 case of LCA with my source and he spilled some more which i had not posted before...
> 
> Well seems in a review of LCA progress DM MP asked few pointed questions. This meeting was chaired by multiple teams not only just HAL.
> 
> The main point asked by DM MP was after LCA Mark1A test flight and handover for production, how long will the whole team take to come out with Mark 2. Members seems to have suggested that a committee be formed to evaluate the timelines and manpower requirements for the additional line requirement.
> 
> DM MP cut them short and said in 6 years at 16 jets a year this order is finished so after Mark 2 should start production from the same line without any downtime. The members still suggested they require a more detailed view and committee to be formed for assessing the realistic dates and plan to be presented to DM.
> 
> They suggested that a new jet requires far more testing from prototype phase and thus requires thorough analysis by a committee.
> .
> DM MP then seems to have asked how long will the committee take to submit the report which people replied about a year.
> 
> DM MP did not say anything on this after all this discussion.
> 
> This is as per source and i did nt put that in original post owing to the fact that within a week after that Saab people had sent feelers to DM MP via a specific BJP CM that Gripen NG can be produced in 3 years from now under MII and can take care of LCA Mark 2 needs with Indian specific customization. In short Indian side requirements could be met outright and Mark 2 project can be put aside.
> 
> DM MP has still not made any decision and is consulting some other senior members (PM NaMo and FM AJ) on this..
> 
> So I refrained from posting it here previously.


IMHO it doesn't change anything. Naturally SAAB can begin production in India sooner than the MK.2 but does that make it worth selling the Indian aerospace industry down the river? MK.1A prodcution should be complete by 2023/4 (7-8 years from now) which should be enough to get the MK.2 off the drawing board and close to induction, if there is a delay in that process a few more SQNs of MK.1A can be produced.

My points above (post 2098) remain valid:
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 140


For the long term health of the Indian domestic aviation industry SAAB need to be avoided at all costs. Short termism cannot be allowed to destroy the capacity building project(s) that is(are) the LCA(andMK.2) project(s). Everyone has to start somehwere, there are no shrotcuts to success (maybe how the DM is seeing it). The LCA project needs to be ring-fenced IMO- commit to 200+ and leave it alone.

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## raktaka

randomradio said:


> The field is not open. Rafale line is guaranteed. And numbers have increased.
> 
> The field is open for a second line.



The opening of the second line is the fly in the ointment. It is not something HAL or Dassault would have wanted. It just shows their failure to impress upon the GoI that they can address all the Pain areas. This opened door for competitors. 



> Dassault had earned the goodwill of HAL. Why do you think HAL stepped up to be the guarantor?



HAL as guarantor for its products is not an novelty. It does not point to smooth relations with Dassault. All sources say they had a very tempestuous dealings. 



> ??? The Rafale deal closed for them.
> 
> Their future projects were supposed to be LCA, AMCA, FGFA and Rafale. Now they have the first three.
> 
> It appears Reliance has replaced HAL.



Before the CNC called it off, what model did HAL choose ? 3 lines of fixed wings aircraft is good enough. Add to that 3 lines of Helicopters. HAL's future is secure. 

Reliance is the candle in the wind. How long can Dassult keep it burning ? Time will tell. Certainly not Risk free move.


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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> IMHO it doesn't change anything. Naturally SAAB can begin production in India sooner than the MK.2 but does that make it worth selling the Indian aerospace industry down the river? MK.1A prodcution should be complete by 2023/4 (7-8 years from now) which should be enough to get the MK.2 off the drawing board and close to induction, if there is a delay in that process a few more SQNs of MK.1A can be produced.
> 
> My points above (post 2098) remain valid:
> Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 140
> 
> 
> For the long term health of the Indian domestic aviation industry SAAB need to be avoided at all costs. Short termism cannot be allowed to destroy the capacity building project(s) that is(are) the LCA(andMK.2) project(s). Everyone has to start somehwere, there are no shrotcuts to success (maybe how the DM is seeing it). The LCA project needs to be ring-fenced IMO- commit to 200+ and leave it alone.




I for one dont even understand why we are bothering for GripenNG/F16 or a F18 line where Boeing wants full control

Honestly i said it before and i am still sticking with a same thinking.. 4 jets and everything else can be dumped..
I said before and i still say to me most practical plan is something like this






Take it nice and steady.. Use resources properly.. Ensure LCA or lIght category is all about tejas...FOC is near.. mark 1A should come soon.. SO mark 2 also can come there should not be any issue.. If mark2 is delayed by 3 years use those 3 years and produce more Mark1A.. How does it matter if we induct say few more Mark1A over Mark 2 when we aim to have a huge fleet of LCA almost 25% of our 1000 Jet fleet say by 2050..

Us e resources in Rafale, FGFA and AMCA..

Keep it nice and tidy and simple.. Use Saab and Boeing and everything starts to go murky..

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## raktaka

Abingdonboy said:


> IMHO it doesn't change anything. Naturally SAAB can begin production in India sooner than the MK.2 but does that make it worth selling the Indian aerospace industry down the river? MK.1A prodcution should be complete by 2023/4 (7-8 years from now) which should be enough to get the MK.2 off the drawing board and close to induction, if there is a delay in that process a few more SQNs of MK.1A can be produced.
> 
> My points above (post 2098) remain valid:
> Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 140
> 
> 
> For the long term health of the Indian domestic aviation industry SAAB need to be avoided at all costs. Short termism cannot be allowed to destroy the capacity building project(s) that is(are) the LCA(andMK.2) project(s). Everyone has to start somehwere, there are no shrotcuts to success (maybe how the DM is seeing it). The LCA project needs to be ring-fenced IMO- commit to 200+ and leave it alone.



HAL should take up Mk2 development and the MK1 team should now focus on AMCA.



PARIKRAMA said:


> I for one dont even understand why we are bothering for GripenNG/F16 or a F18 line where Boeing wants full control
> 
> Honestly i said it before and i am still sticking with a same thinking.. 4 jets and everything else can be dumped..
> I said before and i still say to me most practical plan is something like this
> View attachment 294323
> 
> 
> Take it nice and steady.. Use resources properly.. Ensure LCA or lIght category is all about tejas...FOC is near.. mark 1A should come soon.. SO mark 2 also can come there should not be any issue.. If mark2 is delayed by 3 years use those 3 years and produce more Mark1A.. How does it matter if we induct say few more Mark1A over Mark 2 when we aim to have a huge fleet of LCA almost 25% of our 1000 Jet fleet say by 2050..
> 
> Us e resources in Rafale, FGFA and AMCA..
> 
> Keep it nice and tidy and simple.. Use Saab and Boeing and everything starts to go murky..



Paisa ?

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## Ankit Kumar

one thing to remember. SAAB NG/E/F is still a paper plane. 

@Abingdonboy 
While Mig35 has been flying at different Air shows and upto 8 prototypes and pre production aircrafts manufactured, SAAB hasn't yet come out with Gripen NG/E/F , it remains on PAPER, except a D airframe fitted with GE414.

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## PARIKRAMA

raktaka said:


> HAL should take up Mk2 development and the MK1 team should now focus on AMCA.
> 
> 
> 
> Paisa ?



Money is a consideration and thats why all the sheet represents is just a plan not saying its 100% reliable.. Yet its much better than having 400 jets divided between 18s and Rafales and another 150 jets for Gripen NG with No LCA MK2.

I for one would always advocate Light category to be exclusively handled by LCA various variants (Mark 1, mark 2 and in future so on)

At least with Rafales for both IAF+IN we can focus at peace for inhouse R&D work for AMCA and ensure AMCA becomes our prime product once its ready..

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> I for one dont even understand why we are bothering for GripenNG/F16 or a F18 line where Boeing wants full control
> 
> Honestly i said it before and i am still sticking with a same thinking.. 4 jets and everything else can be dumped..
> I said before and i still say to me most practical plan is something like this
> View attachment 294323
> 
> 
> Take it nice and steady.. Use resources properly.. Ensure LCA or lIght category is all about tejas...FOC is near.. mark 1A should come soon.. SO mark 2 also can come there should not be any issue.. If mark2 is delayed by 3 years use those 3 years and produce more Mark1A.. How does it matter if we induct say few more Mark1A over Mark 2 when we aim to have a huge fleet of LCA almost 25% of our 1000 Jet fleet say by 2050..
> 
> Us e resources in Rafale, FGFA and AMCA..
> 
> .


Right! AMCA, MKI, LCA, Rafale and FGFA are the future of the IAF- they all fit together PERFECTLY and will create a well balanced and formidable force (to my mind the finest outside of North America). Any other option (second MMRCA, LSA and such) is just waste that will hinder, not help, the IAF in the long run. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> Keep it nice and tidy and simple.. Use Saab and Boeing and everything starts to go murky..


My thoughts exactly, what is to be gained (other than applying pressure on Dassualt) by bringing these guys into the picture at the last minuet.


I understand that this GoI is trying hard to be "different" these sorts of games should have been played 5-6 years ago, not now- the situation is far too dire to be messing around on this level and the GoI/MoD/PM/DM need to appreciate they have inhereited an emergency situation. 

To me, it looks like the tail is wagging the dog- the PM/DM are being led by these CEOs and MNCs, they don't seem to have a clear vision that they are executing with purpose. So much for a "decisive leader".

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## raktaka

PARIKRAMA said:


> Money is a consideration and thats why all the sheet represents is just a plan not saying its 100% reliable.. Yet its much better than having 400 jets divided between 18s and Rafales and another 150 jets for Gripen NG with No LCA MK2.
> 
> I for one would always advocate Light category to be exclusively handled by LCA various variants (Mark 1, mark 2 and in future so on)
> 
> At least with Rafales for both IAF+IN we can focus at peace for inhouse R&D work for AMCA and ensure AMCA becomes our prime product once its ready..



LCA is an unwanted baby and the Indian Tax payers are left holding it. Its about time its handed over to Mommy and Daddy aka HAL and IAF and let them decide its future. 

As long as they both do not acknowledge this child, it will remain a bastard.

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## randomradio

raktaka said:


> The opening of the second line is the fly in the ointment. It is not something HAL or Dassault would have wanted. It just shows their failure to impress upon the GoI that they can address all the Pain areas. This opened door for competitors.



I don't know what you are trying to say here.

And there is no door open to any competitor. The Rafale deal is happening, it has also doubled. And they seem to have exclusive access to the IN also.



> All sources say they had a very tempestuous dealings.



I wouldn't know about that. And probably never will since the deal stands canceled.



> Before the CNC called it off, what model did HAL choose ?



I don't know. Whatever model they would have chosen outside Dassault's model would have brought in 2 or 3 years of delays in certification, which means IAF would have bought more Rafales directly from Dassault lines, like they have been doing with MKI.



> 3 lines of fixed wings aircraft is good enough. Add to that 3 lines of Helicopters. HAL's future is secure.



That's one reason why MoD today wants the private sector to enter the aerospace sector as an OEM.



> Reliance is the candle in the wind. How long can Dassult keep it burning ? Time will tell. Certainly not Risk free move.



Dassault already has plans of building Falcons with Reliance in India. There is no such think as a risk free move. Risks have to be taken if we are to go anywhere. Time is more important than money even if HAL thinks otherwise. China's become very scary now. We need to maintain our air superiority.



PARIKRAMA said:


> I for one dont even understand why we are bothering for GripenNG/F16 or a F18 line where Boeing wants full control
> 
> Honestly i said it before and i am still sticking with a same thinking.. 4 jets and everything else can be dumped..
> I said before and i still say to me most practical plan is something like this
> View attachment 294323



That would only add 252 jets by 2027. IAF needs over 400, IN needs 150. That's 550-252 = 298 jets short.


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## PARIKRAMA

raktaka said:


> LCA is an unwanted baby and the Indian Tax payers are left holding it. Its about time its handed over to Mommy and Daddy aka HAL and IAF and let them decide its future.
> 
> As long as they both do not acknowledge this child, it will remain a bastard.



I understand completely what you said.. Its a sentiment which i can emphatise...


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## raktaka

randomradio said:


> I don't know what you are trying to say here.
> 
> And there is no door open to any competitor. The Rafale deal is happening, it has also doubled. And they seem to have exclusive access to the IN also.


IN opportunity always existed. Its not a new thing. Future purchase is not guaranteed and hence the risk for Dassault has increased.




> Dassault already has plans of building Falcons with Reliance in India. There is no such think as a risk free move. Risks have to be taken if we are to go anywhere. Time is more important than money even if HAL thinks otherwise. China's become very scary now. We need to maintain our air superiority.



With the global economy in recession what are the odds of new Falcon sales by Dassault ? I will not be holding my breath for this deal to Make them in India to move forward anytime soon.

Neither Reliance nor Dassault will take this risk. They will expect the GoI to take the risk and will lobby for a back door entry as VIP transport, Special Mission aircrafts etc.

Is Dassault is trying to move the offset for Rafale onto the Falcon ?

I agree that Time is more important than Money and China will make its move fast and we need to be ready. But for now, a Global alliance seems to be a much better bet than new Aircrafts. Of course one cannot exist without the other.


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## randomradio

raktaka said:


> LCA is an unwanted baby and the Indian Tax payers are left holding it. Its about time its handed over to Mommy and Daddy aka HAL and IAF and let them decide its future.
> 
> As long as they both do not acknowledge this child, it will remain a bastard.



This is true. If the Mk2 is not made in a realistic timeframe, it won't be manufactured at all. And the aircraft is not flying today.

It is more likely the AMCA will fly before the Mk2 does at this rate.



raktaka said:


> IN opportunity always existed. Its not a new thing. Future purchase is not guaranteed and hence the risk for Dassault has increased.



Why is it not guaranteed? The minimum numbers to be purchased has already been decided. It's in the MoU we signed in Jan.



> With the global economy in recession what are the odds of new Falcon sales by Dassault ?



The estimate is 400 jet market in India alone over 10 years.



> Is Dassault is trying to move the offset for Rafale onto the Falcon ?



The Reliance-Dassault JV has been in the works since 2013, MoD clearance came in 2014. This deal is happening and has nothing to do with Rafale or offsets.

According to MMRCA, Reliance was supposed to build wings, not that will be expanded to the entire aircraft as the lead integrator. This has everything to do with offsets. Setting up a Rafale production line is part of the offsets.



> But for now, a Global alliance seems to be a much better bet than new Aircrafts. Of course one cannot exist without the other.



Not happening. As far as IAF and IA are concerned, no global alliance will save us from China. The expectation is we will have to save the others from China.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> That would only add 252 jets by 2027. IAF needs over 400, IN needs 150. That's 550-252 = 298 jets short



Ok lets consider a case for another line..
For my own sentiments and love for LCA, let me consider just F18s not Gripen NG.

Despite of all issues of Boeing wanting full control of course and USA association.....

The minimum line viability is 24 so let me consider that case itself..

So 24 x 7 = 168 Jets thats 298-168 = 130

If i throw in 40 MKi+54 Rafales+30 approx Mig 29Ks thats 124 jets

If you had already considered MKIs+rafales+Mig29Ks then the gap is 130, If not gap is down to just 4..

Hmmmmm..
But cost parallely for procuring 18s @24 jets a year would be steep too...


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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> Hmmmmm..
> But cost parallely for procuring 18s @24 jets a year would be steep too...



You are forgetting that extra jets produced will result in an expansion of the IAF's minimum squadrons. If jets are available, IN will expand also.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> You are forgetting that extra jets produced will result in an expansion of the IAF's minimum squadrons. If jets are available, IN will expand also.


True and i feel Boeing will target 30 Jets over minimum 24.. so yes around 6x7 = 42 more will be available...


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## raktaka

randomradio said:


> Why is it not guaranteed? The minimum numbers to be purchased has already been decided. It's in the MoU we signed in Jan.



Only 36 is guaranteed. Right ?



> The estimate is 400 jet market in India alone over 10 years.



That is speculation and future hedging, also known as Bird in bush. Hence the Risk.



> The Reliance-Dassault JV has been in the works since 2013, MoD clearance came in 2014. This deal is happening and has nothing to do with Rafale or offsets.
> 
> According to MMRCA, Reliance was supposed to build wings, not that will be expanded to the entire aircraft as the lead integrator. This has everything to do with offsets. Setting up a Rafale production line is part of the offsets.



How can they set up Rafale line with a firm order of 36 aircrafts ? Does the MoU mention 126 ?



> Not happening. As far as IAF and IA are concerned, no global alliance will save us from China. The expectation is we will have to save the others from China.



I mean an alliance to prevent aggression. Of course when its war, everybody except the big boys will look at us to save their @ss. The greatest victory is to prevent such aggression , by a strong alliance. But we do need to carry a Big Stick.


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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> You are forgetting that extra jets produced will result in an expansion of the IAF's minimum squadrons


Talking about an expansion of the IAF's minimum SQN strength is absurdly premature at this point- they will struggle to meet 42 by 2027 at this rate (when the Parliamentry standing commitee on defence says this should really be 45).

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## randomradio

raktaka said:


> Only 36 is guaranteed. Right ?



On contract, yes. But the offsets part of the deal includes building the production line. So technically, the entire Make in India project is guaranteed for Rafale as soon as the 36 jet contract is signed.



> How can they set up Rafale line with a firm order of 36 aircrafts ? Does the MoU mention 126 ?



Much more than that. The numbers have not been revealed publicly. Only Picdel and myself have an idea of the exact number on this forum. Final numbers will be decided as soon as IN makes the decision to go for Rafale-M.

All I can say is the numbers are roughly double that of MMRCA.



> But we do need to carry a Big Stick.



We need 550 jets over the next 10 years to qualify for carrying the figurative big stick.

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## Abingdonboy

raktaka said:


> How can they set up Rafale line with a firm order of 36 aircrafts ? Does the MoU mention 126 ?


Off the shelf procurement and the MII production line are two seperate deals. One is for 36, the other is for a lot more and, yes, both sides have an understanding of the number of birds India needs to be built in India, of course 36 isn't enough to justify a production line in India- no foreign OEM would ever bite at this.


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> Talking about an expansion of the IAF's minimum SQN strength is absurdly premature at this point- they will struggle to meet 42 by 2027 at this rate (when the Parliamentry standing commitee on defence says this should really be 45).



With a 3rd MMRCA line, they will comfortably reach 550 jets by 2027.


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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> All I can say is the numbers are roughly *double that of MMRCA.*


When you say that, do you mean 2x126 or 2x189?


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> When you say that, do you mean 2x126 or 2x189?



The first one. But IAF won't order all at once. It will grow like MKI did.

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## PARIKRAMA

3 manufacturing lines... I feel something like this

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> Only Picdel and myself have an idea of the exact number on this forum.



This made you sound/read/appear quite full of yourself, mate!
Thought I'd tell you in case it wasn't what you were gunning for.

GL, Tay.

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> This made you sound/read/appear quite full of yourself, mate!
> Thought I'd tell you in case it wasn't what you were gunning for.
> 
> GL, Tay.



My bad, bro. Didn't mean it. Was just putting a point across, since we have those numbers on good authority. I'm sure halloweene also knows. From what I was told, a number of journalists have the information but were told not to print that yet.

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## surya kiran

PARIKRAMA said:


> 3 manufacturing lines... I feel something like this
> 
> View attachment 294340



1. Rafale - The number will be 200+ as we have been discussing since donkey's and nobody cared to listen.

2. LCA - If what you say is right and Gripen does step in, this would be the biggest disservice this Government will be doing. I hope it turns out to be just smoke and HAL pumps out more aircraft. What is troubling though, is how we are expecting HAL/ADA to proceed with Mk2 and AMCA, simultaneously? It would make more sense to upgrade the avionics and proceed with Mk1A and move to the AMCA. HAL and ADA can then devote resources to this. If there is a need to plug years, order more of the Mk1A or the N-LCA. Gripen is a suicide mission.
Or let a private player also develop a second line for Tejas?

3. Boeing - They had offered to setup an MRO for aircraft in Maharashtra. They should be asked to set that up first. If they do make use of their tie-up with TATA, they could be pulled in to pitch against the AMCA. Nothing like a bit of competition. And this will push HAL and ADA to deliver to timelines too. Any other line is total rubbish. Ok, maybe the Osprey line

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## sathya

Why would they buy another plane?

Cost of setting up, training, maintenance, etc will make its cost = additional order of Rafale with the preexisting facilities ..


New line Gripen will be = Rafale

Clearly another plane has to be damn very cheap to make it viable.

F16/18 in Tata plant is the idea ?

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> Right! AMCA, MKI, LCA, Rafale and FGFA are the future of the IAF- they all fit together PERFECTLY and will create a well balanced and formidable force (to my mind the finest outside of North America). Any other option (second MMRCA, LSA and such) is just waste that will hinder, not help, the IAF in the long run.
> 
> 
> My thoughts exactly, what is to be gained (other than applying pressure on Dassualt) by bringing these guys into the picture at the last minuet.
> 
> 
> I understand that this GoI is trying hard to be "different" these sorts of games should have been played 5-6 years ago, not now- the situation is far too dire to be messing around on this level and the GoI/MoD/PM/DM need to appreciate they have inhereited an emergency situation.
> 
> To me, it looks like the tail is wagging the dog- the PM/DM are being led by these CEOs and MNCs, they don't seem to have a clear vision that they are executing with purpose. So much for a "decisive leader".


Yes but what puzzle me is the fact that Parrikar try to push LCA Mk2, for that he needs information urgently, HAL refuse and said a comitee is needed, OK at the end he asks how long it will take to have the report of the comitee. It's a huge effort from him and the answer instead of being one month or one week as it is normal is one year! It's normal that now he looks for other solutions.

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## PARIKRAMA

sathya said:


> Why would they buy another plane?
> 
> Cost of setting up, training, maintenance, etc will make its cost = additional order of Rafale with the preexisting facilities ..
> 
> 
> New line Gripen will be = Rafale
> 
> Clearly another plane has to be damn very cheap to make it viable.
> 
> F16/18 in Tata plant is the idea ?



Source says Boeing wants to go solo.. Few pages back pasted the related information

Here is the link to the post
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 142



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Yes but what puzzle me is the fact that Parrikar try to push LCA Mk2, for that he needs information urgently, HAL refuse and said a comitee is needed, OK at the end he asks how long it will take to have the report of the comitee. It's a huge effort from him and the answer instead of being one month or one week as it is normal is one year! It's normal that now he looks for other solutions.



Sadly we missed a big trick here.. The ppl in the meeting should have asked for 1 month max and should have returned with plan including request for funding and may be a pvt company partnership need also.. Essentially fitting into a MII agenda of the government..

For Gripen the biggest backer is CM Fadnavis of Maharashtra as he is very keen to have the Saab unit in Maharashtra under MII plan..
Now he is a powerful man with lots of connections right from PM NaMo to Gadkari to Jaitley.. So he being the major force here whose backing Saab's interest..

For Boeing otoh its directly all top down approach with leader level talks..

What is interesting is recent last week turn of events will influence US India relations a lot.. In case the 16s sales go through and no money is asked from Pakistan to pay and aid being used to finance the deal, effectively opposition will paint it as a defeat for NDA govt foreign policies.. Even though I believe Senate may finally ask Pakistan to shell out money for 16s, essentially trying to maintain status quo till next POTUS comes in.. This also translates a similar level policy paralysis may be also visible for US India partnership or say a Boeing bid for MII backed by US government
.
So in all probability this year Dec end other than Rafale there is no scope for any other MII.

Effectively that's a reprieve for our domestic LCA program and they do have say 18 months from now to come up with something credible for MK2.

Bcz anything against LCA program won't be very easy for NDA after all LCA name Tejas was given by AB Vajpayee. For Gripens case there has to be lot of negatives cited in press for domestic audience consumption against MK2 issues and painting HAL/ADA as villains.. That's difficult as in another few years elections would be back and NDA may be seen against PSU people..

Oh btw who knows in 18 months the mark1A rolls out and the whole country cheers for that.. And in an Instant mark2 development plan is given a green signal..

Endless opportunities here..
FOC now to mark1A delivery.. each of these milestones would make the government compel to continue with mark2 inspite of all lobby and opportunities

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Yes but what puzzle me is the fact that Parrikar try to push LCA Mk2, for that he needs information urgently, HAL refuse and said a comitee is needed, OK at the end he asks how long it will take to have the report of the comitee. It's a huge effort from him and the answer instead of being one month or one week as it is normal is one year! It's normal that now he looks for other solutions.



The deadline for LCA Mk2 development is unrealistic. They think it will fly in 2018 and achieve IOC in 2021.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> With a 3rd MMRCA line, they will comfortably reach 550 jets by 2027.


With a 5th they will do so even sooner


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> With a 5th they will do so even sooner



That would be FGFA. 

And 6th would be AMCA.


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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> From what I was told, a number of journalists have the information but were told not to print that yet.


Well this information must be with very very few beacause the overwhelming (if not the homogeneous) view in the Indian and international media is that 36 is the only number of Rafales the IAF will ever get. Janes itself has reported this the so-called authority on defence matter. 



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Yes but what puzzle me is the fact that Parrikar try to push LCA Mk2, for that he needs information urgently, HAL refuse and said a comitee is needed, OK at the end he asks how long it will take to have the report of the comitee. It's a huge effort from him and the answer instead of being one month or one week as it is normal is one year! It's normal that now he looks for other solutions.


I agree that the answer that "we need a year just to come up with a timeline" is beyond absurd but, to my mind, it is immaterial. The GoI is commited to the Mk.2- they have to be- and any delays in MK.2 induction will/can be offset by follow-on orders of Mk.1As. Maybe, just like he is trying to do to Dassualt, the DM is trying to coerce HAL/ADA into delivering a promising deal for the AF with the SAAB boogey being dangled in front of them.

It is simply unthinkable that a single engined fighter other than the LCA will serve with the IAF/IN, it simply isn't poltically viable.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Effectively that's a reprieve for our domestic LCA program and they do have say 18 months from now to come up with something credible for MK2.
> 
> Bcz anything against LCA program won't be very easy for NDA after all LCA name Tejas was given by AB Vajpayee. For Gripens case there has to be lot of negatives cited in press for domestic audience consumption against MK2 issues and painting HAL/ADA as villains.. That's difficult as in another few years elections would be back and NDA may be seen against PSU people..


Well said bro. A great point here- whilst the Rafale is fair game for oppostion, there is almost no voice in the media calling for the scrapping of the LCA project, the established narrative is that the LCA is delayed but it is "ours" and needs to be supported at all costs. 

Even SAAB (the most prominent MMRCA bidder in terms of advertisment/PR outlay) has not dared position their product against the LCA. There is just no existing framework that would allow any GoI to kill the LCA for a foreign product.



randomradio said:


> The deadline for LCA Mk2 development is unrealistic. They think it will fly in 2018 and achieve IOC in 2021.


Even if it is unrealistic, any delays will be offset by more Mk.1As (or later blocks that can be developed).

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## Picdelamirand-oil

> They suggested that a new jet requires far more testing from prototype phase and thus requires thorough analysis by a committee.
> .
> DM MP then seems to have asked how long will the committee take to submit the report which people replied about a year.
> 
> DM MP did not say anything on this after all this discussion.



@randomradio : It's Indian time?


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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> That would be FGFA.
> 
> And *5*th would be AMCA.


       


I am in agreement with you on everything else except this element sir.


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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> @randomradio : It's Indian time?



Even worse. It is HAL time.



Abingdonboy said:


> I am in agreement with you on everything else except this element sir.



5th could be AURA.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> Even worse. It is HAL time.
> 
> 
> 
> 5th could be AURA.


For me, the optimal compostion would be:

1- LCA
2-LCA (second with private sector)
3- Rafale
4- MKI/FGFA
5-AMCA
6-AURA

I beleive what we will eventually see by 2023 will not be dissimilar to the above.

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> For me, the optimal compostion would be:
> 
> 1- LCA
> 2-LCA (second with private sector)
> 3- Rafale
> 4- MKI/FGFA
> 5-AMCA
> 6-AURA
> 
> I beleive what we will eventually see by 2023 will not be dissimilar to the above.



No Indian private player will pick up 2. They will lobby for a more profitable exportable line.


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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> No Indian private player will pick up 2. They will lobby for a more profitable exportable line.


Perhaps but if the GoI/IAF commits to 150+ LCA from their line then I don't see what more incentive they would need and I'm not going to rule out exports for the LCA.


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> Perhaps but if the GoI/IAF commits to 150+ LCA from their line then I don't see what more incentive they would need and I'm not going to rule out exports for the LCA.



If you are expecting a private line for Mk2, then it is possible.


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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> From what I was told, a number of journalists have the information but were told not to print that yet.



Well, here with a source of Parik and my own cues and Abingdon joining the fray,
we gave a bracket from 90 bare minimum to roughly 200-240 or more. So you know! 

And when a source says don't reveal numbers, it usually means : -"Please leak this to the public!"
To keep secrets, the best solution is to shut one's big trap. It's not an overlook! Never is!

Have a great evening, Tay.

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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> And when a source says don't reveal numbers, it usually means : -"Please leak this to the public!"
> To keep secrets, the best solution is to shut one's big trap. It's not an overlook! Never is!


The notion that some in the Indian media are keeping the "true" figure "secret" would require them to have a modicum of integrity so.....

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## Taygibay

*^^^ Oh! Shocking! ^^^*​
If you must be both lucid and sarcastic, be a gentleman and do that behind closed doors!

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## Armani

PARIKRAMA said:


> I did argue the Mark2 case of LCA with my source and he spilled some more which i had not posted before...
> 
> Well seems in a review of LCA progress DM MP asked few pointed questions. This meeting was chaired by multiple teams not only just HAL.
> 
> The main point asked by DM MP was after LCA Mark1A test flight and handover for production, how long will the whole team take to come out with Mark 2. Members seems to have suggested that a committee be formed to evaluate the timelines and manpower requirements for the additional line requirement.
> 
> DM MP cut them short and said in 6 years at 16 jets a year this order is finished so after Mark 2 should start production from the same line without any downtime. The members still suggested they require a more detailed view and committee to be formed for assessing the realistic dates and plan to be presented to DM.
> 
> They suggested that a new jet requires far more testing from prototype phase and thus requires thorough analysis by a committee.
> .
> DM MP then seems to have asked how long will the committee take to submit the report which people replied about a year.
> 
> DM MP did not say anything on this after all this discussion.
> 
> This is as per source and i did nt put that in original post owing to the fact that within a week after that Saab people had sent feelers to DM MP via a specific BJP CM that Gripen NG can be produced in 3 years from now under MII and can take care of LCA Mark 2 needs with Indian specific customization. In short Indian side requirements could be met outright and Mark 2 project can be put aside.
> 
> DM MP has still not made any decision and is consulting some other senior members (PM NaMo and FM AJ) on this..
> 
> So I refrained from posting it here previously.



I cannot tell you how much I hate the word "committee". It is another name for "death spiral". Things (like time, resources & money) only go into it, nothing comes out. Our projects only suffer as a result. It is a first-hand evidence for the existence of gravitational waves & black holes.

So the only line that appears 'finalized' so far is the Rafale, and that's good. Both IAF & IN need the Rafale so as soon as you can get those coming, the better.

We need to be damn careful when it to comes to making use of all these other potential technology-providers. I call these the "MMRCA Rejects". I feel that a second MMRCA line (one of the rejects) needs to be set up, but only if that setup is going to give us benefits that even Dassault wouldn't give. Because keep in mind, by starting this production line we're actually doing the Rejects a favour like no other. So when the Rejects say that they will have India getting 24-40 jets a year, but will keep all the integration-contracts and tech within themselves and Boeing India, I'd say F it. Boeing is just looking to offload the SH to someone - they know they can't milk it any further, all of their allies have decided to enter the Lockheed death-spiral (F-35) instead. So whatever they're offering now is out of desperation. And I know, if it wasn't for the US government interference, Boeing would even be okay with transferring atleast 90% tech to local contractors. They are that desperate.

They ain't getting a piece of the US fighter cake worth their weight (F-22, F-35 went to Lockheed, it also seems very likely that F-X and F/A-XX will also be lapped up by a Lockheed-Grumman competition much like YF-22 & YF-23 competition) now it's only logical they'll try to find huge markets somewhere else. But the benefits they're offering aren't worthwhile at all...but I must admit that this "ASH" (Advanced Super Hornet I reckon) could make use of the International Roadmap technologies. It may even have been somewhat lucrative for both IAF & IN if it wasn't for the tech-business that won't win any favors from the Govt. or industry.







Good thing is that the forces actually seem to be taking the Govt.'s side on the matter, if it was any other country any other time, the forces would have been like "I just want my fighter, I don't care about what you or the companies will get".

--

Now coming to the Gripen, yes it seems a better alternative than F-16 any day. But if it's arrival is going to spell doom for LCA Mk-2, I'd keep it away. Unless the Swedes actually market the NG Gripen *AS* the Tejas Mk-2. You see what I'm suggesting? @randomradio Really depends on how far the Swedes are ready to take the tech-transfer, but I'm sure India alone would buy more Gripens than rest of the customers combined. Might be far-fetched sure, but I for one am sure that HAL will take it's sweet time making the Tejas Mk-2...we'd be inducting it alongside the FGFA if they have their way. At that point as you said everyone will be asking them to concentrate on AMCA, stop beating a dead horse. And what happens to the numbers? Who knows.

I think I shouldn't even be surprised if a Gripen-looking plane crawls out of HAL/Private hangar and they start calling IT as the Tejas Mk-2.

--

I'm sorry but has the concept of building *two* Rafale lines in India been discussed already? Under different lead-integrator if possible? I'm sure it was, but I don't see this concept making any headway at Govt.-level. Maybe I missed something. I know Rafale negotiations have already gone through a lot of murk trying to deal with the integrator issue, but we do need jets in very large numbers. Let the main line handle IAF orders at maximum capacity (under Reliance) and the second line take care of Navy+exports and some for IAF if needed. I'd think this second line would easily cross 150 jets production so it might be justified.

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Well, here with a source of Parik and my own cues and Abingdon joining the fray,
> we gave a bracket from 90 bare minimum to roughly 200-240 or more. So you know!



If you simply go by the earlier MMRCA deal and the current IN requirement, it is 126+54 minimum.

If you speculate overall requirement in total, it is 100-150 for IN and 300-350 for IAF.

If you introduce the second line for MMRCA, then IAF reduces to 200.

If you increase IAF squadrons from 42 to 50, then IAF stays at 300-350, even with the second MMRCA line.

So the decision depends on money right now.



> And when a source says don't reveal numbers, it usually means : -"Please leak this to the public!"
> To keep secrets, the best solution is to shut one's big trap. It's not an overlook! Never is!
> 
> Have a great evening, Tay.



The information is not a military secret because the journalists already know. They just don't want the numbers revealed to the general public before contract is signed or maybe a little while after.

But competitors should already know about it or the Boeing official wouldn't have said-
_"If India wants to jump start an aerospace economy, do you want to do that with Dassault -- that’s about a $5 billion company -- or do you want to do that with Boeing, which is a $97 billion aerospace company?" Jeff Kohler, vice president of global sales for Boeing’s defense unit, said in an interview on Monday in Singapore._

The information came from a French MoD or SAFRAN source to a forum member, and that forum member is a military pro, so... it's not good to break trust.

And numbers can change because Rafale is an expensive plane and cost is a major factor.



Armani said:


> Now coming to the Gripen, yes it seems a better alternative than F-16 any day. But if it's arrival is going to spell doom for LCA Mk-2, I'd keep it away. Unless the Swedes actually market the NG Gripen *AS* the Tejas Mk-2. You see what I'm suggesting? @randomradio



This second line, if they decide to go for it, won't be as important as the Rafale line.

I think the earlier plan was to induct at least 240 LCAs. And now the MoD may simply decide to induct 120+ Mk1A and 120+ Gripen NG and get it over with. That's the number of Mig-21s that have to be replaced.

The remaining could be covered with the Rafale, including the IN requirement.

The third line is possible only if the Mig-35 is selected.

IAF need 475.

Case 1: With only Rafale line.
LCA Mk1A = 126
LCA Mk2 = 126
MKI = 40
Rafale = ~180

Case 2: With Rafale and Gripen line, because the Mk2 was delayed.
LCA Mk1A = 126
Gripen NG = 126
MKI = 40
Rafale = ~180

Case 3: A third line is possible only if the squadron strength increases by 8 more or if older aircraft are phased out early, the 63 Jags and 63 Mig-29s.

The best scenario is Case 1.

IN needs 150 jets.

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## MilSpec

@PARIKRAMA @surya kiran @Abingdonboy I haven't done serious reading, but from light browsing, it seems Gripen is being pushed and teens are being pitched, Rest assured neither the Gripen nor the Teens will have an iota of chance to get into the IAF.
This is not from any source but just my general understanding of rubbing shoulders with some people, albeit that was years ago, If either of these platform find a way in, I will be genuinely "Shocked".

I had remarked we haven't seen the last of shornet and there will be a last ditch, and by no means this is that last ditch. Big B can play dirty, and to the magnitude we common folks can barely comprehend, I will leave it to that. (And to clarify I am not referring to IN, I don't know much about the navy's working).

p.s Hint: Check the recipient of largest campaign donations of Big B.

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## sathya

Heavy - su 30 mki, FGFA 
Medium - Rafale , AMCA 
Light - LCA mk1, mk2

Let's restrict at that..
LCA should be made in 2 lines at HAL and private player..
(16 + 16) mk1/ year until mk2 is ready.

Let's increase the efforts in mk2 ..,buy Dassault help and expedite the development .

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## rockstarIN

NO teens please, we should stick to minimum number of types for IAF.
eavy - su 30 mki, FGFA 
Medium - Rafale , AMCA 
Light - LCA mk1, mk2

You can change Rafale with EF

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## sathya

rockstarIN said:


> NO teens please, we should stick to minimum number of types for IAF.
> eavy - su 30 mki, FGFA
> Medium - Rafale , AMCA
> Light - LCA mk1, mk2
> 
> You can change Rafale with EF



Rafale is already a done deal.. EF has very very less chance to make a comeback.

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## PARIKRAMA

@MilSpec @sathya @rockstarIN 
In general what you all said is what many of us feel including myself and @Abingdonboy 

@MilSpec 
Are you referring to Jeb Bush or Bill Clinton? Whom do you refer as Big B

If its Jeb Bush then heres the data






Top Donors data for Jeb Bush, 2016 Cycle | OpenSecrets





Independent Expenditures for, Jeb Bush, 2016 Cycle | OpenSecrets


OTOH Hillary Clinton is like this





Top Donors data for Hillary Clinton, 2016 Cycle | OpenSecrets

Lol i remember how DE shaw came to my campus and offered me a position which i declined long long back..







Independent Expenditures for, Hillary Clinton, 2016 Cycle | OpenSecrets


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## MilSpec

Big B > Boeing.
largest Recipient> Barrack Obama.




PARIKRAMA said:


> @MilSpec @sathya @rockstarIN
> In general what you all said is what many of us feel including myself and @Abingdonboy
> 
> @MilSpec
> Are you referring to Jeb Bush or Bill Clinton? Whom do you refer as Big B
> 
> If its Jeb Bush then heres the data
> View attachment 294386
> 
> 
> Top Donors data for Jeb Bush, 2016 Cycle | OpenSecrets
> 
> View attachment 294387
> 
> Independent Expenditures for, Jeb Bush, 2016 Cycle | OpenSecrets
> 
> 
> OTOH Hillary Clinton is like this
> 
> View attachment 294388
> 
> Top Donors data for Hillary Clinton, 2016 Cycle | OpenSecrets
> 
> Lol i remember how DE shaw came to my campus and offered me a position which i declined long long back..
> 
> 
> View attachment 294389
> 
> 
> Independent Expenditures for, Hillary Clinton, 2016 Cycle | OpenSecrets

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## Dash

randomradio said:


> No Indian private player will pick up 2. They will lobby for a more profitable exportable line.



Thats a false assumption...Any Indian private sector will pick it up. And LCA mk2 does have export potential.

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## PARIKRAMA

MilSpec said:


> Big B > Boeing.
> largest Recipient> Barrack Obama.


But POTUS is in the way out now...
Seems USA is slowly going for a policy paralysis level stuff..

You think before the exit Obama will ensure the dreams of Boeing are realised by hook or crook..

Or a carrot of UNSC support + hi tech access will be dangled and Indians will be asked to bite

Its true Boeings Ex Chief Jim Mcnerney was the PEC Chair of Presidents Export Council (PEC) but he retired and now Ursula M. Burns is PEC Chair and she is Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Xerox Corporation

In fact PEC now has no Boeing representation and is having Lockheed Martin chairman Marillyn A. Hewson
President's Export Council Members

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## Dash

MilSpec said:


> I had remarked we haven't seen the last of shornet and there will be a last ditch, and by no means this is that last ditch. Big B can play dirty, and to the magnitude we common folks can barely comprehend, I will leave it to that



So if we cant comprehend then it simply means that there is no Boeing too along with F -solah and Gripen (I am not even talking about Typhoidoon) . That leaves out nothing on our side and we can all shut this all talk no show campaign.

But there is something I want your opinion on (offtopic though)
Can we de-link IAF from this and just talk about Beoing, LM, SAAB in terms of MII (like GE started the evolution in India in terms of outsourcing). Do you see some weight in it?

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## Piper

PARIKRAMA said:


> But POTUS is in the way out now...
> Seems USA is slowly going for a policy paralysis level stuff..
> 
> You think before the exit Obama will ensure the dreams of Boeing are realised by hook or crook..
> 
> Or a carrot of UNSC support + hi tech access will be dangled and Indians will be asked to bite



Monsieur you misread the situation. There are no shortage of countries willing to fork our $$$ for Boeing equipment in both civilian and defence verticals. Indian contract while being desirable is by no means necessary.

The policy here - which shall be continued irrespective of who the White House tenant is - is to create dependencies and linkages with India while maintaining our relationship with our erstwhile allies.

As for Lobbying by Boeing that is primarily for Pentagon contracts which dwarves anything India can and will offer in far future.

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## MilSpec

Dash said:


> But there is something I want your opinion on (offtopic though)
> Can we de-link IAF from this and just talk about Beoing, LM, SAAB in terms of MII (like GE started the evolution in India in terms of outsourcing). Do you see some weight in it?


I am not good at speculating, being away from the Aerospace industry for close to a decade now, I am quite cut off from general development and industry mindset.

India has a price point advantage for general engineering product development, but knowing US engineering industry, critical component, even as trivial as a profile for a screw compressor is guarded with utmost priority to such extent that even quality and ops cannot get access to design engineering data within the same organisation in the same country. So this entire idea that International Aerospace industry will outsource components to Indian counter parts, which in turn will gain engineering know how and in turn will benefit local industry is beyond my comprehension. If I am wrong, great, but I have my apprehensions based on my experience.

I used to discuss this with sancho who was a great proponent of technology transfer driving local engineering development. Till date I maintain, there is no alternate to what we used to call "ragda",it roughly translates to sit down and relentlessly design. I pretty much owe everything to this philosophy, where engineer/s is/are given a system/design problem. Utilize 9 step to formulate strategy and 7 ways to for solution approach, and then sit down and design. No other task until you come up with the solution. This "ragda" strategy got us fuel increase in Mig21Bison, integration of jammer, integration for Mission computers, LCA aerofoil and aeroframe, pretty much all of the jigs and fixtures in HAL (albeit some of it was just by intuitive nature of engineering connect that the technicians had with the platform and production back then). I was programmed with this in formative days, so everytime I have to adapt a Tech Transfer i cringe at the G2. Purely from engineering standpoint, I will take an under-performing GTRX kaveri over a tech transfer GE 404, because I know more on my system that I have developed that I can ever know about a system I was donated by some other dude.

Apologize for the rant, I don't think this addresses your query. But apna hi thread hai.

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## raktaka

Piper said:


> Monsieur you misread the situation. There are no shortage of countries willing to fork our $$$ for Boeing equipment in both civilian and defence verticals. Indian contract while being desirable is by no means necessary.
> 
> The policy here - which shall be continued irrespective of who the White House tenant is - is to create dependencies and linkages with India while maintaining our relationship with our erstwhile allies.
> 
> As for Lobbying by Boeing that is primarily for Pentagon contracts which dwarves anything India can and will offer in far future.



What is there to misread ? Being continues to lobby in India. US govt. has pushed sale of arms too. So far India as said no. That is unlikely to change.

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## Bheemsen

Time to ditch Rafale , scrape this deal and put money in F18 SH produced in India and concentrate on LCA


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## surya kiran

Piper said:


> Monsieur you misread the situation. There are no shortage of countries willing to fork our $$$ for Boeing equipment in both civilian and defence verticals. Indian contract while being desirable is by no means necessary.
> 
> The policy here - which shall be continued irrespective of who the White House tenant is - is to create dependencies and linkages with India while maintaining our relationship with our erstwhile allies.
> 
> As for Lobbying by Boeing that is primarily for Pentagon contracts which dwarves anything India can and will offer in far future.



The reason why Boeing is pushing for Make in India is evident. And it is not just the Indian business carrot. In couple of years, they will have to shut down their American plant. But, they still have hope of selling the advanced versions of the Hornet to allies who need replacements today and not wait for the perfect F-35. Also, the African market will open up now. To all this add the dilemma of the F-35 getting delayed further. Who benefits most with delays in the F-35? Boeing. Now they need a plant to keep this dream running. A country, with an immediate demand of 200 fighters is like an icing on the cake. Nothing wrong, its plain business.

But, I would any day prefer Boeing set up a civilian MRO facility in Maharashtra, instead of the F-18 line. Or maybe, the Osprey or Apache.

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## Abingdonboy

Bheemsen said:


> Time to ditch Rafale , scrape this deal and put money in F18 SH produced in India and concentrate on LCA


Well Dassualt is offering a very comprehensive ToT package, the superior prodcut and won the MMRCA the first time around and on the other hand Boeing is asking to have complete control over the MII production (so no real industrial benefits to India) and their product lost in the MMRCA on technial grounds so is inferior to the Rafale. Not only that but with the US every high end deal is subject to internal US politics and the Congress has the fnal say on these matters- India can't afford, nor does it want to be, at the whim of them for its critical military kit nor has India signed up for the 3 fundamental agreements (LSA, BECA and CISMOA) which would be conditional with such a purchase. 

What exactly makes the F-18 so appealing, am I missing something? Boeing are just trying to muscle their way back into the fray in a typically arrogant American fashion but are offering almost nothing in return other than the "Make in India" headline grabber.

The Rafale/Dassualt offer is the clear favourite if everyone (MoD/PM/DM/Dassualt/Hollande) can get on the same page which seems to be increasingly likely. Let's not forget an IGA on the Rafale sale to India was signed less than a month ago by the two heads of government.



surya kiran said:


> But, I would any day prefer Boeing set up a civilian MRO facility in Maharashtra, instead of the F-18 line. Or maybe, the Osprey or Apache.


Not sure the demand for the V-22 (in India or abroad) is large enough to justify a new production line and that too in India- ditto with the Apache BUT I think the CH-47 could/should be offered to be made in India. Given the Indian military's and the civlian (see strategic infrastructure projects in the North and NE that have been reciving a MAJOR thrust recently) needs there should be sufficent demand in India to justify it and there is still a very healthy export market for the Chinook.

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## Bheemsen

Abingdonboy said:


> Well Dassualt is offering a very comprehensive ToT package, the superior prodcut and won the MMRCA the first time around and on the other hand Boeing is asking to have complete control over the MII production (so no real industrial benefits to India) and their product lost in the MMRCA on technial grounds so is inferior to the Rafale. Not only that but with the US every high end deal is subject to internal US politics and the Congress has the fnal say on these matters- India can't afford, nor does it want to be, at the whim of them for its critical military kit nor has India signed up for the 3 fundamental agreements (LSA, BECA and CISMOA) which would be conditional with such a purchase.
> 
> What exactly makes the F-18 so appealing, am I missing something? Boeing are just trying to muscle their way back into the fray in a typically arrogant American fashion but are offering almost nothing in return other than the "Make in India" headline grabber.
> 
> The Rafale/Dassualt offer is the clear favourite if everyone (MoD/PM/DM/Dassualt/Hollande) can get on the same page which seems to be increasingly likely. Let's not forget an IGA on the Rafale sale to India was signed less than a month ago by the two heads of government.
> 
> 
> Not sure the demand for the V-22 (in India or abroad) is large enough to justify a new production line and that too in India- ditto with the Apache BUT I think the CH-47 could/should be offered to be made in India. Given the Indian military's and the civlian (see strategic infrastructure projects in the North and NE that have been reciving a MAJOR thrust recently) needs there should be sufficent demand in India to justify it and there is still a very healthy export market for the Chinook.


Boeing has upgraded F18 Sh product from last MMRCA competition, with conformal tanks, internal weapons bay , AESA , Better engines and many more , its coming at half price of french bird and what TOT benefit has mki provided to DRDO or HAL who cant even make a decent LCA or IJT on time.


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## PARIKRAMA

@Ankit Kumar 
The paper plane date for first flight is out..






Its even claiming to be first fighter in the world to field Meteor 

@Vauban @Taygibay @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @Dash @raktaka

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## Abingdonboy

Bheemsen said:


> F18 Sh has upgraded the product from last MMRCA competition, with conformal tanks, internal weapons bay , AESA , Better engines and many more


On paper sure.

They lost out, end of story- if they had offered a superior product in the first place they would not be having to try and force their way back into the fray now. 



Bheemsen said:


> its coming at half price of french bird


You can't know that, no one outside of offcials in France and India know the true price of the Rafale being offered to India and what the true cost of a Made in India F-18SH will be is also open to speculation especially considering that the "Silent Hornet" is not even in production as of yet but remains a promise- like the Gripen NG.



Bheemsen said:


> and what TOT benefit has mki provided to DRDO or HAL who cant even make a decent LCA or IJT on time.


That's irrelevent. HAL still has soveriegn control over its production line, has IPR associated with the MKI and the IAF has complete accsess to every element of their birds. Boeing wants to control it all and as would be typical with US high-end products, they would come with a whole swathe of restrictive end-user agreements that only allow their representitves to conduct intensive work on the birds that would mean digitally sealed "off limits" sections/components of the IAF's own birds that tehy cannot go near- as the Pakistanis and Turks about their experience.This isn't acceptable and the breach in soveriegnty would not justify the very marginal cost savings (if any at all exist) that would be further compounded by being forced to sign CISMOA, LSA and BECA. I'm not neccesarily opposed to them but I think if India is going to sign them it should be because the GoI/MoD has taken an objective decsion that they offer benefits to India- it shouldn't be forced on India as a conditon for purchasing American tech.

And then, do you want to be held hostage to the US Congress for the remaining service life of these birds? 30-40 years is a long time, a lot can change geopolitcally and internally in the US, look at the drama Pakistan has to go through just to get 8 F-16s, do you want that for India?



PARIKRAMA said:


> @Ankit Kumar
> The paper plane date for first flight is out..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its even claiming to be first fighter in the world to field Meteor
> 
> @Vauban @Taygibay @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @Dash @raktaka

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## surya kiran

Bheemsen said:


> Boeing has upgraded F18 Sh product from last MMRCA competition, with conformal tanks, internal weapons bay , AESA , Better engines and many more , its coming at half price of french bird and what TOT benefit has mki provided to DRDO or HAL who cant even make a decent LCA or IJT on time.



For one, the MMRCA is dead. Secondly, the requirement for Su-30 and the requirement for the current one are separate. Thirdly, why should they be given 100% ownership when the others are ready to invest the money back in to Indian companies? This logic fails me. Yes, it was a good product. 15 years back. 

Add to this the fact, that its an American product, with total 100% ownership by Americans. Which by the way means, they will shut shop if the American goverment, which is not exactly the best strategic partner to have, decides one fine day to do so.

On the point of the LCA, it is now flying. It has to be improved further. Get the Mk1A up. Order it in numbers and evolve it. Youngsters have been trained now and the know how to develop aircraft has been created. The last thing we should be doing is, make the same mistake we did with the Marut.

LCA, Rafale, Su-30 giving way to Mk2, AMCA and FGFA. This has to be solidified and taken forward.

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## Ankit Kumar

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Ankit Kumar
> The paper plane date for first flight is out..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its even claiming to be first fighter in the world to field Meteor
> 
> @Vauban @Taygibay @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @Dash @raktaka



Oh, I hope they stick to schedules.
Yes, they earlier too claimed about that Meteor, but I think that's not possible.
If they actually manage to start executing the orders, only concern will be its price.

Meanwhile , I see more delay 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/700265730781159424

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## Bheemsen

surya kiran said:


> For one, the MMRCA is dead. Secondly, the requirement for Su-30 and the requirement for the current one are separate. Thirdly, why should they be given 100% ownership when the others are ready to invest the money back in to Indian companies? This logic fails me. Yes, it was a good product. 15 years back.
> 
> Add to this the fact, that its an American product, with total 100% ownership by Americans. Which by the way means, they will shut shop if the American goverment, which is not exactly the best strategic partner to have, decides one fine day to do so.
> 
> On the point of the LCA, it is now flying. It has to be improved further. Get the Mk1A up. Order it in numbers and evolve it. Youngsters have been trained now and the know how to develop aircraft has been created. The last thing we should be doing is, make the same mistake we did with the Marut.
> 
> LCA, Rafale, Su-30 giving way to Mk2, AMCA and FGFA. This has to be solidified and taken forward.


Even for fuddu LCA if US stops supply of engines its a dud


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## surya kiran

Bheemsen said:


> engines



Hence the need to keep evolving and replacing foreign components with Indian ones. If we stop now, then we will need to restart all over again. Exactly what we did with the Marut. The F-16 btw when it came up was very berated. Just like the F-35 is being done now. We all know, what it is today.

The only way to setup our own sanction proof plane is to build it in house. We may outsource parts of it, but have the ability to build all parts over a period of time. The Boeing deal is a win win for Boeing. For us, the Rafale suits much better.

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## raktaka

Ankit Kumar said:


> Oh, I hope they stick to schedules.
> Yes, they earlier too claimed about that Meteor, but I think that's not possible.
> If they actually manage to start executing the orders, only concern will be its price.
> 
> Meanwhile , I see more delay
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/700265730781159424



I think IAF/MoD is buying additional Su30MKI directly from Russia due to the fall of rouble making the Su 30MKI really cheap. Can anyone confirm ? If so, what will be the new price based on current Rouble price ?


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## randomradio

Dash said:


> Thats a false assumption...Any Indian private sector will pick it up. And LCA mk2 does have export potential.



Not a chance. There is no big player to hold their hands. HAL will be their direct competitor, so no chance from there either. All the private players in the country want their hands held by an experienced jet maker and they want assured orders, including exports.

If given a chance between LCA and a foreign fighter, they will pick the foreign fighter. If given a chance between LCA and making components for the foreign fighter as a Tier 1 supplier, they will pick the foreign fighter.

The only way they will pick LCA is if they are allowed to have their hands held by a foreign maker on a foreign aircraft for 10 years before they build an ecosystem for investing in aerospace in the country as a direct competitor to HAL. Today, there is not a single private company in India that is in any shape to compete with HAL. They will get steamrolled.



raktaka said:


> I think IAF/MoD is buying additional Su30MKI directly from Russia due to the fall of rouble making the Su 30MKI really cheap. Can anyone confirm ? If so, what will be the new price based on current Rouble price ?



We can't guess, but Su-35 is going for $15M now.


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## Abingdonboy

Bheemsen said:


> Even for fuddu LCA if US stops supply of engines its a dud


Then the EJ-2000 would be fitted then- that engine was found to be compatible with the LCA's requirements but RR lost to GE on cost analysis.

You can swap out components if the worst happens (sanctions) but there won't be any alternatives when your entire jet is American (and made under full American MNC control) from the radar, engine, avionics, mission systems etc- in that situation you are......(add expletive here).

@PARIKRAMA is right that this is a strategic purchase and France has proven itself worthy of India's trust to have their frontline fighter business- the US has in no way done so and likely never will. From a strategic perspective the Rafale makes a lot more sense than the F-18, not only would the Indian entity retain sovereign control, ToT would be tanigble, IAF would have complete control on their own assets and there would be scope to customise as required. Going through the US congress for every new military system you might want to procure to support your fighter or having to seek Congressional to upgrade/customise your own assets is not what a future global power and one looking to maintain its strategic autonomy should seek.

France, on the most part, sees India as an equal- there is no way the US will ever do so, their entire military procurement system is deisgned to retain American control on their products and dictate their use which is fine for transports and Helicopters but not for fighter aircraft that could potentially be your nuclear delivery assets.

What conditions has France ever imposed on India in order to procure one of tis products? None. The US on the other hand, stripped its products of certain equipment as India refused to sign CISMOA and if you think the F-18 (an offensive military asset) would not be sold to India on the condition it sign the BECA, CISMOA and LSA then you are dleuding yourself.


Add it all up and the F-18 is in no way a justifiable purchase- Boeing (and the USG) are trying to strong arm India but are offering almost nothing in return that would vindicate such a comprimise in sovereignty.



raktaka said:


> I think IAF/MoD is buying additional Su30MKI directly from Russia due to the fall of rouble making the Su 30MKI really cheap. Can anyone confirm ? If so, what will be the new price based on current Rouble price ?


I'm not sure on this, from what I understand Indo-Russian deals have always been conducted in USD and not Rubles.

IMO, any off the shelf purchase of MKIs is being sought purely to expedite the induction process as if follow-ons were made in India htey wouldn't enter IAF service before 2021 and the last (of the 40) would only be in service by 2023/4.


As we've been discussing, the IAF's fighter stream is in an emergency conditon and multiple steps are going to have to be taken across multiple platforms to address this- there is no quick or easy or solitary solution, it is going to have to be a combination of measures taken between now and 2020 in order to turn this abysmal situation around.



randomradio said:


> Not a chance. There is no big player to hold their hands. HAL will be their direct competitor, so no chance from there either. All the private players in the country want their hands held by an experienced jet maker and they want assured orders, including exports.
> 
> If given a chance between LCA and a foreign fighter, they will pick the foreign fighter. If given a chance between LCA and making components for the foreign fighter as a Tier 1 supplier, they will pick the foreign fighter.
> 
> The only way they will pick LCA is if they are allowed to have their hands held by a foreign maker on a foreign aircraft for 10 years before they build an ecosystem for investing in aerospace in the country as a direct competitor to HAL. Today, there is not a single private company in India that is in any shape to compete with HAL. They will get steamrolled.


You make a very good point here, HAL has got to where it is after decades of investment and accumulated experience, it didn't happen overnight so we can't just expect an Indian private player to get to the same level without a huge amount of "hand holding" and the most pertinent point is HAL is not compelled to be that partner as they would be direct competitors. There isn't really any way around this reality other than for the MoD/GoI to force HAL/ADA to assist the private player but this would be frought with challenges,resistence and would ultimately lead to sub-optimial results.

@Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @PARIKRAMA @anant_s some food for thought- as much as we want a private sector LCA production line, how exactly can that be implemented?

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## Bheemsen

Looks like too many Rafale fanboys here . rafale deal will bankrupt the nation leaving nothing left to buy anything else from defense budget , a bad choice.


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## anant_s

all i can say is DM has set cat amongst pigeons with his statement. if true he has not only put a question mark on Rafale but LCA mark 2 as well.
i think best course of action right now is to strike a deal with Dassault and design LCA version around Snecma M 88 with Israeli avionics.
@PARIKRAMA probably has best view of situation and what really is happening but why rather than consolidation, we are looking to buy multiple platform is baffling.

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## randomradio

Bheemsen said:


> Looks like too many Rafale fanboys here . rafale deal will bankrupt the nation leaving nothing left to buy anything else from defense budget , a bad choice.



The acquisition cost of a Rafale was $120M in MMRCA. Now, it's about 20% lesser. The flyaway cost is about $80-85M now. We can't afford Rafale?

What about FGFA which is expected to cost $225M flyaway, that's $80M more than the F-22?

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @PARIKRAMA @anant_s some food for thought- as much as we want a private sector LCA production line, how exactly can that be implemented?



You see what sources said was DM MP wanted MK2 after MK1A production is over.. In all practical Sense I see few things here

LCA story will perhaps remain with HAL only
The private sector participation at best will come at component manufacturing to sub assemblies perhaps and to some extent assemblies as per ADA supply chain planning
This implies the HAL model may evolve from doing end to end work for LCA production to perhaps into an Integrator role with assemblies and lower tier of pyramid being a fully privatised supply chain.
In essence the jet assembling kind of directly proportional to supply chain capability of delivering the same to main assembling and integration
If you see MII stoy, the idea is about skill and technology development for such in house capability within our country for an ability to manufacture components.

For me a whole line of LCA in private sector is too lavish as returns are not directly proportional to the investment. Owing to the fact that most parts of high economic value is non indigenous. Thus, the margins won't be that attractive for such a business. But if such components of high economic value start getting made via a JV or technology transfer to local private sector suddenly with cheap Indian human capital cost, the margins starts to look attractive coupled with a guaranteed demand.

The private company to become a integrator or a role like that requires a senior partner to do what we call as "grand fathering" approach..

It's difficult to expect HAL to do such a thing yet at best they can be a advisors.. You will require a global major to do so since they have done a similar thing.. An example is Dassault themselves.. They have over 600 supply chain OEMs who make components to sub assemblies and finally DA takes over the assembling and integration role. This they can teach and guide it based on experience.

HAL has to reach a similar level of experience with a supply chain like that to do grandfathering..

Of course it's my personal opinion.. Not necessary that HAL can't surprise us with such a possibility

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## Abingdonboy

Bheemsen said:


> Looks like too many Rafale fanboys here . rafale deal will bankrupt the nation leaving nothing left to buy anything else from defense budget , a bad choice.


Oh really? 200 (+/- 50) Rafales being bought to serve for 40 years with a 10+ year pay back period that will highly skill thousands of workers, will come with a 50% offset clause and create a entirely new and profitable eco system in India involving hundreds of SMEs will bankrupt a nation whose GDP exceeds $2 Trillion USD and who returns >$3 Billions USD every year in unspent funds from its defence budget? Cool story.

By the time India makes the last payment on these Rafales it will be the 3rd largest economy in the world, by the time the last Rafale is phased out of IAF service India will be the largest or second largest economy in the world with a GDP (PPP) of >$40 Trillion USD.

Forgetting about that. Between 2014 and 2022 the IAF alone will have around $100BN to spend purely on CAPEX and they are still returning vast amounts each year in unspent funds.


The budget constraints the Rafale will cause are the last resort to bash the Rafale but are entirely unfounded as, not only is there ample CAPEX for any such purchase but any perceived premium paid for the Rafale will easily be offset in OPEX savings over the course of the Rafale fleet's 35-40 year old lifespan.



anant_s said:


> all i can say is DM has set cat amongst pigeons with his statement.


As he seems to do everytime he opens his mouth

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## Bheemsen

Abingdonboy said:


> Oh really? 200 (+/- 5) Rafales being bought to serve for 40 years with a 10+ year pay back period that will highly skill thousands of workers, will come with a 50% offset clause and create a entirely new and profitable eco system in India involving hundreds of SMEs will bankrupt a nation whose GDP exceeds $2 Trillion USD and who returns >$3 Billions USD every year in unspent funds from its defence budget? Cool story.
> 
> By the time India makes the last payment on these Rafales it will be the 3rd largest economy in the world, by the time the last Rafale is phased out of IAF service India will be the largest or second largest economy in the world with a GDP (PPP) of >$40 Trillion USD.
> 
> Forgetting about that. Between 2014 and 2022 the IAF alone will have aorund $100BN to spend purely on CAPEX and they are still returning vast amounts each year in unspent funds.
> 
> 
> The budget constraints the Rafale will cause are the last resort to bash the Rafale but are entirely unfounded as, not only is there ample CAPEX for any such purchase but any perceived premium paid for the Rafale will easily be offset in OPEX savings over the course of the Rafale fleet's 35-40 year old lifespan.
> 
> 
> As he seems to do everytime he opens his mouth


Please wake up , too much daydreaming not good for health


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## Abingdonboy

Bheemsen said:


> Please wake up , too much daydreaming not good for health


I present you with empirical facts that you can validate for yourself and this represents "daydreaming" to you?

What element seems like it is exaggerated or unrealistic to you?

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## Ankit Kumar

What to understand with this wrt the 2nd private production line ? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/700298795867705345
@PARIKRAMA seems IN has said a solid NO 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/700183838757007360

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> You see what sources said was DM MP wanted MK2 after MK1A production is over.. In all practical Sense I see few things here
> 
> LCA story will perhaps remain with HAL only
> The private sector participation at best will come at component manufacturing to sub assemblies perhaps and to some extent assemblies as per ADA supply chain planning
> This implies the HAL model may evolve from doing end to end work for LCA production to perhaps into an Integrator role with assemblies and lower tier of pyramid being a fully privatised supply chain.
> In essence the jet assembling kind of directly proportional to supply chain capability of delivering the same to main assembling and integration
> If you see MII stoy, the idea is about skill and technology development for such in house capability within our country for an ability to manufacture components.
> 
> For me a whole line of LCA in private sector is too lavish as returns are not directly proportional to the investment. Owing to the fact that most parts of high economic value is non indigenous. Thus, the margins won't be that attractive for such a business. But if such components of high economic value start getting made via a JV or technology transfer to local private sector suddenly with cheap Indian human capital cost, the margins starts to look attractive coupled with a guaranteed demand.
> 
> The private company to become a integrator or a role like that requires a senior partner to do what we call as "grand fathering" approach..
> 
> It's difficult to expect HAL to do such a thing yet at best they can be a advisors.. You will require a global major to do so since they have done a similar thing.. An example is Dassault themselves.. They have over 600 supply chain OEMs who make components to sub assemblies and finally DA takes over the assembling and integration role. This they can teach and guide it based on experience.
> 
> HAL has to reach a similar level of experience with a supply chain like that to do grandfathering..
> 
> Of course it's my personal opinion.. Not necessary that HAL can't surprise us with such a possibility


You make some very solid points bro.

Your point about HAL transforming from a end to end producer to more of a lead intergrator with private players providing sub-assemblies to HAL seems to be the way things are going and if you remember that pyramid diagram has already been outlined. We will have to see how this works out as it could fix many of the issues we talk of when criticising HAL, my only hope is that HAL sets more ambitious production targets- even 16 LCA/year is too modest and for ALHs they should be looking at >60 to now also cater for Rudra orders (to be fair to them- their target for LUHs at 60/year is very impressive and I'll be more than happy to see it become a reality) and LCHs should be produced 30/year. Much of the issues now faced have migrated from the R&D/quality side to purely being as a result of limited productive capacity. It has taken HAL until 2-3 years ago to produce the MKI at a respectible level (16+).


For the private sector to get their own role as lead intergrator, they will need to be involved as a partner from day one, hopefully the AMCA will have more stakeholders than just the IAF/IN, ADA and HAL- 1-2 private sector giants pitching in with their own efforts would be much appreciated and will allow for a more efficent distribution of labour playing to the strengths of all parties. 


The private sector definetly have the scope for being a end to end producer also but they need to build up their capacities/experience with other projects like helos and transports (C-295 namely). This is why I was very disappointed in the decsion regarding Ka-226T production. If I was the DM/PM I would pool all 10+ ton Helo requirements of the IA, IAF, ICG and IN right now give it to Airbus Military (for the EC-725) to rope in an Indian partner to make the vast requirement (200++) in India with full ToT. The eco-system and infrastructure this would give to the Indian partner would be immense. They could leverage this expereince for bigger and better things down the line.



Ankit Kumar said:


> @PARIKRAMA seems IN has said a solid NO
> Carrier-based Sea Gripen now firm part of Saab's future "will be a new product portfolio". Initially aimed at Brazilian Navy. #SGAirshow— Tim Robinson (@RAeSTimR) February 18, 2016


I don't think the IN ever really contemplated it- they aren't interested in small, single engined, carrier fighters and they have the N-LCA nonetheless.

SAAB would be pushing their luck (more than they already are) by offically stating that the IN was a possible candidate for the Sea Gripen. 



Ankit Kumar said:


> What to understand with this wrt the 2nd private production line ?
> 
> India's relationship with the United States will not be affected after the US decision to sell F-16 jet fighters to Pakistan: @MEAIndia— All India Radio News (@airnewsalerts) February 18, 2016


No relation whatsoever to the 2nd private production line in India but a clarifying of India's postion after it had summoned the US ambassader and shown its displeasure at the State Department's decsion to greenlight the subsidised sale.

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> If you simply go by the earlier MMRCA deal and the current IN requirement, it is 126+54 minimum.



LOL I chose that very first option of yours for coincidence reasons that reveal something whimsical :

The present GtG deal calls in its options at signing and Parrikar announces those 54 ...
*to be all M models for the IN!!!* 
He turns to IAF and says that they've been a pain in the zaz and will get HAL's Tejas at
whatever rate it may or may not come out and that's it!
Then SAAB gets a 100 unit line working with TATA, just enough to kill the LCA!!!
And a week later, a sub-committee floats to MiG & Boeing the possibility to be selected
as a team to provide inputs on the AMCA.

Could happen! It's India after all! 
JK! 



randomradio said:


> The information came from a French MoD or SAFRAN source to a forum member, and that forum member is a military pro, so... it's not good to break trust.



Yes but if another member has the same information through unprotected informations and/or analysis,
they are wholly entitled to share that. That's a consequence of any dissemination! You have to find the
Snowden ( snitch, whomever outs the confidential matter ) because those below in the chain that just
get their hands on the papers if not identified as secret défense cannot be sued or faulted for their use.
Again, a secret shared is not a secret anymore, likely never was! True secret numbers do stay secret.
And yes, second or umpteenth hand infos reaching public awareness that way is part of the manipulation
once a govt deems it useful.



Bheemsen said:


> Time to ditch Rafale , scrape this deal and put money in F18 SH produced in India and concentrate on LCA



How logical!
Save money by ditching 15 years worth of work ( how does that work? )
then reallocate that to another _vilāyati _fighter your air force doesn't want
but asking for the max effort to be applied to a local jet it doesn't like that much either?​You must really hate the IAF!



Bheemsen said:


> Boeing has upgraded F18 Sh product from last MMRCA competition, with conformal tanks, internal weapons bay , AESA , Better engines and many more , its coming at half price of french bird and what TOT benefit has mki provided to DRDO or HAL who cant even make a decent LCA or IJT on time.



Boeing has completed feasability studies with _ma_R_quette-ing _tools.
The "Silent" SHornet is still what it was and will only move to reality if there is a big buy.
Internal weapons bay for example is a pure sham unless you meant weapons pod.
Don't forget that their most important market, the world's most important market in fact,
is concentrating on a single machine draining it of a little more than all its funding.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Its even claiming to be first fighter in the world to field Meteor



It will be the first actually! Of course, it won't be the best but hey, kudos Sweden anyway! 


Now for a bit of serious stuff, please take Armani's contention about Boeing and Lockheed and the MIC.
Do consider that no matter how far away from plans LM's planes are by numbers [ 850-187 ], the US govt
has made them a main partner in most essential ventures. F-22, F-35 but also LCS Freedom-class or all
and any Interception missile system active in America and much more! There is an ongoing centering of
the MIC around that corporation, has been for years.
Regarding mil avia specifically, LockMart is head on F-35, associated to Northrop Grumman on the FA-XX
but associated with ... BOEING on the LRS-B. The objective result is that they make money every time and
slowly push the competition to second tier status, that of helpers if you will.
I don't know if that is a strategic choice by Washington but it is happening!

My own folly caused me to formulate that it's likely that horrid GOP Congress, itself an association of a big more or
less efficient cash-is-no-limit organization with a pesky sub-contractor ( Tip Hearty ), that wants Lock-Mart to continue thus
because it makes their own performance look normal by comparison.
- More cash, less results = SNAFU! Go back to sleep, good people! - or sumthing like that.

Just wondering out loud; don't worry! Only my mischievous side talking, that's all!

Unless ... Tay.​

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## Bheemsen

Too many JNU pass out Rafale supporters here , Rafale will be killing defense capital budget for next decade and putting and end to all modernization plans in other areas. French are doing daytime robbery with this bird and costly weapons.


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## PARIKRAMA

Why I have a sneaky suspicion our def forum is now infiltrated with Saab, Dassault and Boeing lobbyists.. Oh yeah not to forget LCA too...

We need paychecks.. Make it quick pls..and hefty one too.

Whomsoever talks logic and rationale is a day dreamer.. 

Anything else reclassify among any lobby or fan support base



Bheemsen said:


> Too many JNU pass out Rafale supporters here , Rafale will be killing defense capital budget for next decade and putting and end to all modernization plans in other areas. French are doing daytime robbery with this bird and costly weapons.




I find it offensive that you feel we are from JNU..

There is rising intolerance in our country..

I protest..

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## Abingdonboy

Bheemsen said:


> Too many JNU pass out Rafale supporters here , Rafale will be killing defense capital budget for next decade and putting and end to all modernization plans in other areas. French are doing daytime robbery with this bird and costly weapons.


I've refuted this above and unless you have empiracal evidence to back up this absurd assertion then I suggest you refrain from making such remarks.

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## surya kiran

Bheemsen said:


> Looks like too many Rafale fanboys here . rafale deal will bankrupt the nation leaving nothing left to buy anything else from defense budget , a bad choice.



If Boeing wants to enter India, tie up with an Indian partner. Like the French are going to for Rafale. Setup the supply chain like the French are. Assure the GoI of zero interference from the USG for complete technology transfer. What is fanboyish in this? Just do what the French are ready to do? 

We need to ask, what is in it for us? Not what is in it for Boeing.

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## Abingdonboy

surya kiran said:


> Assure the GoI of zero interference from the USG for complete technology transfer.


See, the USG will never able to assure a user of this- rules and regulations govenring the sale of military systems is enshrined in their law, I seriosuly doubt they are going to make an ammendment to them for India. The entire military export system in the US is deisgned to ensure maxium governmental control on where the products are sold, what they are and to whom. The USG/lawmakers will always have complete veto power.

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## Blue Marlin

surya kiran said:


> If Boeing wants to enter India, tie up with an Indian partner. Like the French are going to for Rafale. Setup the supply chain like the French are. Assure the GoI of zero interference from the USG for complete technology transfer. What is fanboyish in this? Just do what the French are ready to do?
> 
> We need to ask, what is in it for us? Not what is in it for Boeing.


why on earth would they do that? the f18 production line is dependant on export orders with the pentagon ordering a trickle. they want india to buy the f18 so it an be a similar proposal to the mki's. they bul some and then provide sub sections which is to ensure americain jobs are secure. but if india commits to 200+ then they will move the entire line to india. but the sensitive kit will be made in the usa and shiped to india in sealed containers and must be sent to the usa for maintainance. saab will be the same but it wont come with sencitive kit. the rafaleis anyone guess. i have not heard much of our typhoon. any idea?

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## Ankit Kumar

Sometimes the post is so plain stupid that you don't feel like replying. 

@PARIKRAMA 
If , a big if..... go for SH, do we receive the new AESA? 
Also I remember that the new AESA has had its own share of problems in operations. 
And how does AN/APG-79 compares to RBE2AA?

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## Abingdonboy

Ankit Kumar said:


> Sometimes the post is so plain stupid that you don't feel like replying.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA
> If , a big if..... go for SH, do we receive the new AESA?
> Also I remember that the new AESA has had its own share of problems in operations.
> And how does AN/APG-79 compares to RBE2AA?


AESA is mandatory for this procurement and would be coming (IF).....source codes and ToT on the other hand- a big fat NO.

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> This is why I was very disappointed in the decsion regarding Ka-226T production.



Ka-226 is better than any other light helicopter available for Indian requirements.



> If I was the DM/PM I would pool all 10+ ton Helo requirements of the IA, IAF, ICG and IN right now give it to Airbus Military (for the EC-725) to rope in an Indian partner to make the vast requirement (200++) in India with full ToT.



Mi-17 is a much better option.

Instead HAL can make their own 10 ton+ helicopter in the future with Airbus.



Taygibay said:


> LOL I chose that very first option of yours for coincidence reasons that reveal something whimsical :
> 
> The present GtG deal calls in its options at signing and Parrikar announces those 54 ...
> *to be all M models for the IN!!!*
> He turns to IAF and says that they've been a pain in the zaz and will get HAL's Tejas at
> whatever rate it may or may not come out and that's it!
> Then SAAB gets a 100 unit line working with TATA, just enough to kill the LCA!!!
> And a week later, a sub-committee floats to MiG & Boeing the possibility to be selected
> as a team to provide inputs on the AMCA.
> 
> Could happen! It's India after all!
> JK!



About 6 months ago, I had a similar opinion. IAF will buy 36 F3-04T followed by 36+18 F3R. That will reach their minimum of 80-90 jets. But since then MII program for Rafale has been confirmed, subject to the signature of the first contract for 36.

During that time, the creator of the LSA was waiting for confirmation of LSA from MoD. So that threw us off the actual numbers of Rafale. Because at 54 jets a year, we could easily manage squadrons by 2027.



Bheemsen said:


> Too many JNU pass out Rafale supporters here , Rafale will be killing defense capital budget for next decade and putting and end to all modernization plans in other areas. French are doing daytime robbery with this bird and costly weapons.



You have to do the math and show it to us to prove that.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> Ka-226 is better than any other light helicopter available for Indian requirements.


Perhaps but the IA/IAF had selected the Fennec intially- it was only through Poltical intervention that the deal was awarded to Kamov. The Fennec will be cheaper to operate most likely.

I was mostly disappointed not with the selection itself- the Ka-226T is fine, but that Kamov selected HAL, and not an Indian private player, to make the birds in India. 



randomradio said:


> Mi-17 is a much better option.


MI-17 is not suitable for the IN or ICG and, according to Aribus, the IA is looking at the EC-725.

The Mi-17 is good for what it is (cheap) but it falls short in many qualatative requirements such as not having a dual-channel hydrulics control system (which has serious flight safety implications). There is a reason the Mi-17 was rejected from the IAF's VVIP procurement.



randomradio said:


> Instead HAL can make their own 10 ton+ helicopter in the future with Airbus.


Will take 10+ years to enter service and as of yet HAL are not actively pursueing this (but they have plans-IMRH).


@PARIKRAMA @Taygibay @anant_s

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> Perhaps but the IA/IAF had selected the Fennec intially- it was only through Poltical intervention that the deal was awarded to Kamov. The Fennec will be cheaper to operate most likely.
> 
> I was mostly disappointed not with the selection itself- the Ka-226T is fine, but that Kamov selected HAL, and not an Indian private player, to make the birds in India.



The tender was a UPA goof up. It should have gone through the MMRCA type selection, then only the Ka-226T would have qualified. The Ka-226T has way too many good advantages, like comparing Rafale to a Gripen.

The Ka-226 has more payload, higher ceiling, higher climb rate, better control in rarefied atmosphere etc. It's twin engine, so safer in the Himalayas.

Thum! Kaun Aata Hai?: Why MoD Picked the Kamov Ka-226T 'Hoodlum' over the Eurocopter AS550 C3 Fennec



> MI-17 is not suitable for the IN or ICG and, according to Aribus, the IA is looking at the EC-725.



For that, the Sikorsky is the absolute best. The ones that belong to the Black Hawk fame. The Seahawk derivative is the one that won the tender.

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## surya kiran

Blue Marlin said:


> why on earth would they do that? the f18 production line is dependant on export orders with the pentagon ordering a trickle. they want india to buy the f18 so it an be a similar proposal to the mki's. they bul some and then provide sub sections which is to ensure americain jobs are secure. but if india commits to 200+ then they will move the entire line to india. but the sensitive kit will be made in the usa and shiped to india in sealed containers and must be sent to the usa for maintainance. saab will be the same but it wont come with sencitive kit. the rafaleis anyone guess. i have not heard much of our typhoon. any idea?



Which is why I say F-18 does not fit our requirement. The Typhoon has a better chance compared to the F-18. As per what Parikrama was saying, its still in the game.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> The tender was a UPA goof up. It should have gone through the MMRCA type selection


There was a competitive bidding process for the RSH- although it was hampered at every stage by the traditional UPA-era goofs and controversy.



randomradio said:


> he Ka-226 has more payload, higher ceiling, higher climb rate, better control in rarefied atmosphere etc. It's twin engine, so safer in the Himalayas.


Being twin engined it will also be more expensive to operate over its life span- the IAF and IA have operating the single engined Cheetah/l in the North with few issues for 40+ years. Yes, twin engined is nice to have but it is not essential over land- unlike for the navy who operate at sea. The IAF/IA didn't demand twin engined and even the HAL LUH is going to be single engined (which will give it a significant competitive advantage over the Ka-226T in terms of LCCs).



randomradio said:


> For that, the Sikorsky is the absolute best. The ones that belong to the Black Hawk fame. The Seahawk derivative is the one that won the tender.



Seperate requirements. The IN has selected the 10 ton S-70B for ASW roles but they are also looking for 12+ ton helicopters and so the EC-725 fits well for that requirement. The ICG too has now selected the EC-725 for their shore based SAR duties, in addtion to that the IA is also interested in this bird for their requirements and the IAF will be for their CSAR helicopter requirement. It makes sense to simply pool the requirements, go for a large joint order and have Airbus set up a production line for this type in India with an Indian private player.



surya kiran said:


> The Typhoon has a better chance compared to the F-18. As per what Parikrama was saying, its still in the game.


It is a pretty transparent pressure tactic.


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## mirage

Bheemsen said:


> Even for fuddu LCA if US stops supply of engines its a dud


oye , what is fuddu ?


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## Blue Marlin

surya kiran said:


> Which is why I say F-18 does not fit our requirement. The Typhoon has a better chance compared to the F-18. As per what Parikrama was saying, its still in the game.


why go for typhoons and rafales? just buy more 36 rafales and buy more lateron simple. tell lockheedmartain, boeing, the eurofighter consitum and saab to do one.


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## surya kiran

Blue Marlin said:


> why go for typhoons and rafales? just buy more 36 rafales and buy more lateron simple. tell lockheedmartain, boeing, the eurofighter consitum and saab to do one.



That's the idea. More Rafale. The confusion is with the second private line. Just read the conversation for the past 10 pages.

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## Abingdonboy

Blue Marlin said:


> why go for typhoons and rafales? just buy more 36 rafales and buy more lateron simple. tell lockheedmartain, boeing, the eurofighter consitum and saab to do one.


It's a bluff, 200+ Rafales are on their way- the rest is all noise.

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## Blue Marlin

surya kiran said:


> That's the idea. More Rafale. The confusion is with the second private line. Just read the conversation for the past 10 pages.



dassault wont allow that to happen and would not end well. HAL is the only company able to build it. heck even the russains are playing it safe and choose hal to bult the 226's. yes the government does want to change that to the private sector but thats easy said than done. tata has no experiance building planes and yet they are building c295's? im sorry for not having enough faith in your country but im ridgid to buy it all and beleve its all kushdi. if you want my advice i say give hal engineers a kick up the back side an have redundancy checks by foreign [french] engineers. also have an apprentiship program where the bright eyed and bushy tailed youth can learn from the old timers. but not learn their ethic of work which i awful. and heck expand hall facilities across the states.

@Abingdonboy (in regards to the post you quoted me) i shall wait and see, all the best though, hope it works out for you guys.
any idea on the current 36 its getting near to the end of the 4 weeks from the 25th.

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## Abingdonboy

Blue Marlin said:


> dassault wont allow that to happen and would not end well. HAL is the only company able to build it. heck even the russains are playing it safe and choose hal to bult the 226's.


The Ka-226T was one example and a rather strange case, the situation with the Rafale is, interestingly, almost the complete reverse. Much/most of the problems in the MMRCA talks were centered around the HAL-Dassualt rivalry/differences and Dassualt desperately wanted to work with Reliance but under MMRCA rules HAL had to be the lead intergrator.

Now the MMRCA is dead and under the current talks Dassualt has been given full authority to pick any Indian party it wishes and form a consortium to produce Rafales in India-suffice to say they haven't chosen HAL.



Blue Marlin said:


> @Abingdonboy (in regards to the post you quoted me) i shall wait and see, all the best though, hope it works out for you guys.
> any idea on the current 36 its getting near to the end of the 4 weeks from the 25th.


It will be signed during this FY (ends March 31st ).

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## randomradio

Blue Marlin said:


> dassault wont allow that to happen and would not end well. HAL is the only company able to build it. heck even the russains are playing it safe and choose hal to bult the 226's. yes the government does want to change that to the private sector but thats easy said than done. tata has no experiance building planes and yet they are building c295's? im sorry for not having enough faith in your country but im ridgid to buy it all and beleve its all kushdi. if you want my advice i say give hal engineers a kick up the back side an have redundancy checks by foreign [french] engineers. also have an apprentiship program where the bright eyed and bushy tailed youth can learn from the old timers. but not learn their ethic of work which i awful. and heck expand hall facilities across the states.
> 
> @Abingdonboy (in regards to the post you quoted me) i shall wait and see, all the best though, hope it works out for you guys.
> any idea on the current 36 its getting near to the end of the 4 weeks from the 25th.



Building stuff via JV is far easier than doing the stuff alone.


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## surya kiran

Blue Marlin said:


> dassault wont allow that to happen and would not end well. HAL is the only company able to build it.



Its in all possibility going to be Reliance, not TATA. And if there is one thing, I have learnt about Reliance, it is that they get the job done.

The comment by the MoD was, 'it could be one or two'. One line is for Tejas with HAL, he actually mentioned that a second private line could be opened for Tejas. Third line will be Rafale.

This is what, I think, is going to be the case. Rest is noise.

As for the Kamovs, HAL already has a working relationship with the engine providers, with whom they have developed the Shakti engine.

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## Taygibay

About that chopper discussion earlier :






Enough said!

Tay.

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## surya kiran

What if one of the lines is the 'COMBAT HAWK' ???????????


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## Blue Marlin

Abingdonboy said:


> The Ka-226T was one example and a rather strange case, the situation with the Rafale is, interestingly, almost the complete reverse. Much/most of the problems in the MMRCA talks were centered around the HAL-Dassualt rivalry/differences and Dassualt desperately wanted to work with Reliance but under MMRCA rules HAL had to be the lead intergrator.
> 
> Now the MMRCA is dead and under the current talks Dassualt has been given full authority to pick any Indian party it wishes and form a consortium to produce Rafales in India-suffice to say they haven't chosen HAL.
> 
> 
> It will be signed during this FY (ends March 31st ).


thats my point the 226 should have passed on to the private sector. why it didnt is a mystery. why did dassault want to work with reliance and not anyone else? they dont have experiance building jets.


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## PARIKRAMA

Blue Marlin said:


> thats my point the 226 should have passed on to the private sector. why it didnt is a mystery. why did dassault want to work with reliance and not anyone else? they dont have experiance building jets.



There was a news someplace that HAL is actually grandfathered by Russia right from initial days so Russian all products they want only HAL.. no pvt company..

Perhaps its also bcz the level of control makes it easier for Russia with HAL ...


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## Abingdonboy

Blue Marlin said:


> thats my point the 226 should have passed on to the private sector.


It was Kamov's choice- they chose the safe option with HAL but in the long term have shot themselves in the foot because HAL is working on their own LUH and the Ka-226T and HAL LUH, once their own orders of 200 each start to enter service, will compete for a follow-on order of 100% units (ie 200 more helos)-200+200+200. The HAL LUH should have the cost/price advantedge and thus will likely bag the follow-on order and Kamov have gone ahead and given their competition complete access to their product.



Blue Marlin said:


> why did dassault want to work with reliance and not anyone else? they dont have experiance building jets.


Outside of HAL, there is no entity in India that does. There are only a few players with pockets deep enough for such a capital intensive project actually interested in getting involved in building jets (TATA, RIL and L&T off the top of my head). Through a process of due dilligence and bilateral discussions Dassualt settled on RIL. The exact reasons why are known only to both those parties- perhaps their visions' aligned?



surya kiran said:


> What if one of the lines is the 'COMBAT HAWK' ???????????


Then it will be made at the existing HAL production line for the Hawks- it isn't part of any of this

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## surya kiran

Blue Marlin said:


> why did dassault want to work with reliance and not anyone else? they dont have experiance building jets.



When the initial MMRCA was drawn up it was to ensure Indian companies are strengthened in this space. Various players signed up with various Indian companies. Boeing was with TATA and so was LM. SAAB also with TATA. The only groups capable of taking on TATA in India are Reliance, Aditya Birla and Mahindra. Aditya Birla Group is not interested. Mahindra are concentrating on components.

That leaves Reliance. And they are the biggest boys in the house. How big? Well they could possibly buy out majority stake in Dassault if they want to and then go after SAAB. Now, if you want to enter one of the biggest military markets in the world, what would you need?

1. Deep pockets - It does not get deeper than Reliance in India.
2. Government contacts - It does not get 'contactier' than Reliance in India.
3. Aggression - No group is more aggressive than Reliance in India.
4. Execution - The speed of execution of the Reliance group is legendary.

So, Reliance was actually the correct choice, if TATA was not available to setup shop in a country which anyway did not have aerospace experience, because HAL.

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## randomradio

surya kiran said:


> Its in all possibility going to be Reliance, not TATA. And if there is one thing, I have learnt about Reliance, it is that they get the job done.
> 
> The comment by the MoD was, 'it could be one or two'. One line is for Tejas with HAL, he actually mentioned that a second private line could be opened for Tejas. Third line will be Rafale.
> 
> This is what, I think, is going to be the case. Rest is noise.
> 
> As for the Kamovs, HAL already has a working relationship with the engine providers, with whom they have developed the Shakti engine.



The LCA is independent from what Parrikar said. The LCA line has already been established after all.


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## surya kiran

randomradio said:


> The LCA is independent from what Parrikar said. The LCA line has already been established after all.



Private sector line. Not the HAL one.


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## Blue Marlin

randomradio said:


> Building stuff via JV is far easier than doing the stuff alone.


yes agreed



Abingdonboy said:


> It was Kamov's choice- they chose the safe option with HAL but in the long term have shot themselves in the foot because HAL is working on their own LUH and the Ka-226T and HAL LUH, once their own orders of 200 each start to enter service, will compete for a follow-on order of 100% units (ie 200 more helos)-200+200+200. The HAL LUH should have the cost/price advantedge and thus will likely bag the follow-on order and Kamov have gone ahead and given their competition complete access to their product.


cant hal just expand like what every other bussines should do when they need to?


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## randomradio

surya kiran said:


> When the initial MMRCA was drawn up it was to ensure Indian companies are strengthened in this space. Various players signed up with various Indian companies. Boeing was with TATA and so was LM. SAAB also with TATA. The only groups capable of taking on TATA in India are Reliance, Aditya Birla and Mahindra. Aditya Birla Group is not interested. Mahindra are concentrating on components.
> 
> That leaves Reliance. And they are the biggest boys in the house. How big? Well they could possibly buy out majority stake in Dassault if they want to and then go after SAAB. Now, if you want to enter one of the biggest military markets in the world, what would you need?
> 
> 1. Deep pockets - It does not get deeper than Reliance in India.
> 2. Government contacts - It does not get 'contactier' than Reliance in India.
> 3. Aggression - No group is more aggressive than Reliance in India.
> 4. Execution - The speed of execution of the Reliance group is legendary.
> 
> So, Reliance was actually the correct choice, if TATA was not available to setup shop in a country which anyway did not have aerospace experience, because HAL.



There's nothing hi-tech about Reliance. Btw, the Reliance we are talking about is not Mukesh Ambani's Reliance, it is Anil's Reliance. And Mukesh's Reliance is big only because of oil.

Tata Sons is so much bigger in comparison. They have the only functioning global internet communication network. They build supercomputers. They build aircraft parts as a global Tier 1 supplier. They even have universities that's under the Department of Atomic Energy, TIFR, owned by Tata. Hell they even have their own F1 team. Tata cannot be compared to Reliance in any way. Reliance is entering the defence field only now. Tata has been in it since 2007.


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## Blue Marlin

Taygibay said:


> About that chopper discussion earlier :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enough said!
> 
> Tay.


can you explain lad.
i dont se how the raflale is able to land on mt everest



surya kiran said:


> When the initial MMRCA was drawn up it was to ensure Indian companies are strengthened in this space. Various players signed up with various Indian companies. Boeing was with TATA and so was LM. SAAB also with TATA. The only groups capable of taking on TATA in India are Reliance, Aditya Birla and Mahindra. Aditya Birla Group is not interested. Mahindra are concentrating on components.
> 
> That leaves Reliance. And they are the biggest boys in the house. How big? Well they could possibly buy out majority stake in Dassault if they want to and then go after SAAB. Now, if you want to enter one of the biggest military markets in the world, what would you need?
> 
> 1. Deep pockets - It does not get deeper than Reliance in India.
> 2. Government contacts - It does not get 'contactier' than Reliance in India.
> 3. Aggression - No group is more aggressive than Reliance in India.
> 4. Execution - The speed of execution of the Reliance group is legendary.
> 
> So, Reliance was actually the correct choice, if TATA was not available to setup shop in a country which anyway did not have aerospace experience, because HAL.


yes i have looked these guys up and i remember i saw their name dure the cricket world cup around the boundry. i have heard of tata as they own jaguar and landrover. and i saw how they made the tata nano on megafactories. tata is larger though nearly enough doubleing the revenue of reliance $58billion vs 108 billion.
i feel tata played it safe by choosing to build the c295 instead of the advanced fighters. its the perfect stepping stone.
allas we shall see what happens.


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## Abingdonboy

Blue Marlin said:


> cant hal just expand like what every other bussines should do when they need to?


Yes, and they are doing just that. A few weeks back they begun constructing a brand new production line for the LCH and LUH with a capacity of 60 LUH/year. 

HAL is easily one of the largest aviation companies in the world by capacity, they are producing/developing the ALH, Rudra, MKI, Hawk, LUH, LCH, HTT-40, Do-228 and HJT-36 simultaneously. The number and variety of aircraft they have made and delivered is absolutely vast.



randomradio said:


> There's nothing hi-tech about Reliance. Btw, the Reliance we are talking about is not Mukesh Ambani's Reliance, it is Anil's Reliance. And Mukesh's Reliance is big only because of oil.
> 
> Tata Sons is so much bigger in comparison. They have the only functioning global internet communication network. They build supercomputers. They build aircraft parts as a global Tier 1 supplier. They even have universities that's under the Department of Atomic Energy, TIFR, owned by Tata. Hell they even have their own F1 team. Tata cannot be compared to Reliance in any way. Reliance is entering the defence field only now. Tata has been in it since 2007.


With deep pockets and an aviation giant like Dassualt holding your hand your success is almost assured.



randomradio said:


> Hell they even have their own F1 team


No they don't.



Blue Marlin said:


> yes i have looked these guys up and i remember i saw their name dure the cricket world cup around the boundry. i have heard of tata as they own jaguar and landrover. and i saw how they made the tata nano on megafactories. tata is larger though nearly enough doubleing the revenue of reliance $58billion vs 108 billion.
> i feel tata played it safe by choosing to build the c295 instead of the advanced fighters. its the perfect stepping stone.
> allas we shall see what happens.


As already explained, TATA signed up with SAAB and Boeing, RIL signed with Dassualt- not everyone can or should sign with TATA, this isn't TATAland, other options exist.

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> No they don't.



Oh yeah, what a goof up...

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> Oh yeah, what a goof up...


Sorry sir, just had to point it out 

p.s I'm a HUGE F1 fan.


+ I wish TATA did have an F1 team- there needs to be more Indian drivers in the sport and F1 needs to return to India.


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> p.s I'm a HUGE F1 fan.



I'm not even close to being called a fan. Lol. The most races I've ever watched was when Force India was introduced, and I watched only about half of them. So my knowledge about the sport is that old.

They say watching live is better, so I'm gonna do that someday.


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## Taygibay

Blue Marlin said:


> can you explain lad.
> i dont se how the raflale is able to land on mt everest



You might have missed the chopper in my sentence referring to the KA-226
discussion from a few posts back not the farm tool nor kitchen utensil ? 

That video is of a helicopter by the same maker that brought India the Chetak
landing on Everest because it was there, in spiritual line with Hillary and Norgay.
I'm pretty certain that the older Indians got it!
And I blame the latter of your comments on lack of infrastructure; it could! 

 &  to you but no good day,  Tay.


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## Blue Marlin

Taygibay said:


> You might have missed the chopper in my sentence referring to the KA-226
> discussion from a few posts back not the farm tool nor kitchen utensil ?
> 
> That video is of a helicopter by the same maker that brought India the Chetak
> landing on Everest because it was there, in spiritual line with Hillary and Norgay.
> I'm pretty certain that the older Indians got it!
> And I blame the latter of your comments on lack of infrastructure; it could!
> 
> &  to you but no good day,  Tay.


which ever and for your information its good night ;-)


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## surya kiran

randomradio said:


> There's nothing hi-tech about Reliance. Btw, the Reliance we are talking about is not Mukesh Ambani's Reliance, it is Anil's Reliance. And Mukesh's Reliance is big only because of oil.
> 
> Tata Sons is so much bigger in comparison. They have the only functioning global internet communication network. They build supercomputers. They build aircraft parts as a global Tier 1 supplier. They even have universities that's under the Department of Atomic Energy, TIFR, owned by Tata. Hell they even have their own F1 team. Tata cannot be compared to Reliance in any way. Reliance is entering the defence field only now. Tata has been in it since 2007.



Why are you getting defensive about TATA?If you leave out TATA, they are the best candidates for it. They have a tieups with Boeing, LM and SAAB. Anyways, it is better to have multiple groups to be present, rather than one group. Even if that group is TATA.

And its RIL. Not ADAG. ADAG is Pipavav.



Blue Marlin said:


> i feel tata played it safe by choosing to build the c295 instead of the advanced fighters. its the perfect stepping stone.
> .


Well, had Boeing won it would have been the TATAs. Anyways, I hope both of them get something. Nothing like Reliance, Tata and Mahindra going at it in aircraft.

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

SOURCE: Ajai Shukla | Business-standard.com







Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar bluntly stated on Thursday that negotiations for buying 36 Rafale fighters from French aerospace vendor, Dassault, were deadlocked on the issue of price, and that no deal would be signed until the price was right.

Well-informed defence ministry sources that are close to the negotiation say there is a wide gulf between the two sides. “The difference between what France is demanding and what India is willing to pay is too large to bridge easily – about 25 per cent.”

Business Standard understands that Dassault has quoted about Rs 91,548 crore, while Indian negotiators are refusing to go above Rs 68,499 crore.

Parrikar told India Today TV: “Price is the problem which has to be resolved. Unless I get the right price, I cannot sign.”

Debunking recent media articles that a deal was imminent, most recently in Hindustan Times on February 11, Parrikar said ironing out the remaining issues would take “a few months”.

Pressed on the question of time-frame, Parrikar responded: “You can’t commit yourself to a time, because this is not a negotiation for a few hundred crores. This is thousands of crores. I should not… put a time line on my price negotiation.”

On January 25, during his visit to Delhi, French President Francois Hollande declared after signing an inter-governmental agreement for the supply of 36 Rafales, “There are some financial issues that will be sorted out in a couple of days…” It now appears he may have been speaking figuratively.

On January 27, French ambassador to New Delhi, Francois Richier, put a deadline of four months for the price to be negotiated.

On Thrursday, Parrikar also confirmed that India had demanded offsets worth 50 per cent of the deal value, and that Dassault had agreed to that condition.

“We have resolved all the other issues. There were terms of guarantees, there were terms of supply, there were terms of how it will be done”, said Parrikar.

The defence minister denied that the window was open for buying more Rafale fighters, beyond the 36 being currently negotiated. “As of now, the negotiation is for 36 (fighters). There are many possibilities, but this deal is for 36”, he said.

When Prime Minister Narendra Modi, on a visit to Paris last April, requested for 36 Rafales, New Delhi and had Paris agreed the price would be less than what Dassault had quoted in response to the Indian tender of 2007 for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). Of those 126 fighters, the first 18 were to be supplied in “flyaway condition”, i.e. fully built. Since 36 Rafales are now being bought in “flyaway condition”, their per-piece price must be lower than what Dassault quoted for those 18 fighters.

The Indian Air Force had chosen the Rafale on January 31, 2012, in India’s tender for 126 MMRCA aircraft. However, in protracted price negotiations that followed, the defence ministry found problems in Dassault’s financial bid. Eventually, Modi chose to abandon the MMRCA tender, and instead buy 36 Rafales over-the-counter.


----------



## scholseys



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## Donald Trump

Deal by 2325? Hopefully! 

Till then...


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## Skull and Bones

We should seriously think about F-18SH at this time of need.

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## C130

this whole fiasco


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## Hell hound

so France is demanding $13.3 billion while you guys are willing to pay $10 billion its still huge sum for just 36 jets man


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## C130

Skull and Bones said:


> We should seriously think about F-18SH at this time of need.


this should of happened back in 2008.

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## Tshering22

This means we will order more Su-30MKIs instead of Rafales and ultimately drop it.

Dassault found its new customer in Egypt and has opened up new areas. Most likely they won't budge.


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## Bheemsen

C130 said:


> this should of happened back in 2008.


Yes F18Sh is way to go , TOT or no TOT IAF needs new birds in 13 billion 100 F18Sh will come easily.

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## jetray

Skull and Bones said:


> We should seriously think about F-18SH at this time of need.


Well India wont buy F18's but might just bait US to see french response.



Tshering22 said:


> This means we will order more Su-30MKIs instead of Rafales and ultimately drop it.
> Dassault found its new customer in Egypt and has opened up new areas. Most likely they won't budge.


India is long term market, its just not about aircraft. Probably french are confident that once selection has been made they can jack up the price.


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## Hell hound

Tshering22 said:


> This means we will order more Su-30MKIs instead of Rafales and ultimately drop it.
> 
> Dassault found its new customer in Egypt and has opened up new areas. Most likely they won't budge.


thank you guys from saving us from those french avionics or they will be milking us to extremes until last operational thunder.not saying that you should but at 10 billion you guys can buy 115 f 16s with full spare support and JHMCS and there is no way 36 rafale can compete with 115 f16 block 52 let alone f16 i or f 18.

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## Brahmaputra Mail

When you see an exciting offer by a company and go all gung-ho without noticing the asterisk (*). 

This (*) is the bane of all consumers.

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## C130

Bheemsen said:


> Yes F18Sh is way to go , TOT or no TOT IAF needs new birds in 13 billion 100 F18Sh will come easily.


I can see a lot of ToT but not full ToT.

one major ToT would be the GE-414 engine which is used not only by the F/A 18 Super Hornet, but also the LCA MK 2.

I doubt it would cost 13 billion for 100 birds, but I guess it would come down to how many India wants to buy off the shelf from Boeing and how much it would cost build them in India.

either way half of the contract will go back into India as off-set clause.



som said:


> No way . The F18 comes with lot of restrictions. BECA,CISMOA,LSA, EULA etc. Plus it was kicked out of MMRCA for obvious reasons. I would stick with the rafale.




*restrictions* that isn't a sure thing.

you went from a 126 tender to it being scrapped, then you went to buying 36 fighters without building a single one in India.

and what are these obvious reasons?? no doubt the F/A 18 wasn't the best dog fighting aircraft in the competition, but when you have hundreds of Su-30MKI that is your air superiority fighter this isn't that big of a problem.

you got fleeced by the Russians and now you are getting gouged by the French.

seems like this whole program was a red herring

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## Alphacharlie

Very Good Mr. Parikar - Thank you.

This a Buyer Market ---- You Dont give me Right Price, I aint Gonna Buy!!

Mr, Parikar is know to be most scroogest Negotiator. When he was Goa Chief minister his state was the only state where Petrol was selling at 50Rs when others we at 68Rs.

Proud of you Parikar Sir.

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## Vergennes

Funny........... And how are we going to explain the Egyptians and the Qataris that we sold "cheaper" Rafale to India ?
-
Let's go for one more year !
-


Tshering22 said:


> This means we will order more Su-30MKIs instead of Rafales and ultimately drop it.
> 
> Dassault found its new customer in Egypt and has opened up new areas. Most likely they won't budge.



Of course France is in better position than it was in ~2012!

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## ConcealCarry

As the wise men say, never bite more than you can swallow, either you choke to death or be embarrassed to throw up.
A decade long claims of unlimited resources and bloated statements of "india can buy anything, anytime, in any quantity"...LOL and these shameless guys would come in hordes to still claim 36 is the initial order with 150 more to follow......



kahonapyarhai said:


> SOURCE: Ajai Shukla | Business-standard.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar bluntly stated on Thursday that negotiations for buying 36 Rafale fighters from French aerospace vendor, Dassault, were deadlocked on the issue of price, and that no deal would be signed until the price was right.
> 
> Well-informed defence ministry sources that are close to the negotiation say there is a wide gulf between the two sides. “The difference between what France is demanding and what India is willing to pay is too large to bridge easily – about 25 per cent.”
> 
> Business Standard understands that Dassault has quoted about Rs 91,548 crore, while Indian negotiators are refusing to go above Rs 68,499 crore.
> 
> Parrikar told India Today TV: “Price is the problem which has to be resolved. Unless I get the right price, I cannot sign.”
> 
> Debunking recent media articles that a deal was imminent, most recently in Hindustan Times on February 11, Parrikar said ironing out the remaining issues would take “a few months”.
> 
> Pressed on the question of time-frame, Parrikar responded: “You can’t commit yourself to a time, because this is not a negotiation for a few hundred crores. This is thousands of crores. I should not… put a time line on my price negotiation.”
> 
> On January 25, during his visit to Delhi, French President Francois Hollande declared after signing an inter-governmental agreement for the supply of 36 Rafales, “There are some financial issues that will be sorted out in a couple of days…” It now appears he may have been speaking figuratively.
> 
> On January 27, French ambassador to New Delhi, Francois Richier, put a deadline of four months for the price to be negotiated.
> 
> On Thrursday, Parrikar also confirmed that India had demanded offsets worth 50 per cent of the deal value, and that Dassault had agreed to that condition.
> 
> “We have resolved all the other issues. There were terms of guarantees, there were terms of supply, there were terms of how it will be done”, said Parrikar.
> 
> The defence minister denied that the window was open for buying more Rafale fighters, beyond the 36 being currently negotiated. “As of now, the negotiation is for 36 (fighters). There are many possibilities, but this deal is for 36”, he said.
> 
> When Prime Minister Narendra Modi, on a visit to Paris last April, requested for 36 Rafales, New Delhi and had Paris agreed the price would be less than what Dassault had quoted in response to the Indian tender of 2007 for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). Of those 126 fighters, the first 18 were to be supplied in “flyaway condition”, i.e. fully built. Since 36 Rafales are now being bought in “flyaway condition”, their per-piece price must be lower than what Dassault quoted for those 18 fighters.
> 
> The Indian Air Force had chosen the Rafale on January 31, 2012, in India’s tender for 126 MMRCA aircraft. However, in protracted price negotiations that followed, the defence ministry found problems in Dassault’s financial bid. Eventually, Modi chose to abandon the MMRCA tender, and instead buy 36 Rafales over-the-counter.







hahaha as they say, when you spit facing up, you get to lick it back.......



Skull and Bones said:


> We should seriously think about F-18SH at this time of need.


----------



## C130

som said:


> The main reason for conducting the MMRCA was to see the best product available and to gauge each aircraft's potential.
> 
> India is trying to purchase the Rafales for good reason : Nuclear delivery. (US : No ... No)
> 
> The rafale M version is offered for the Indian Navy's IAC-II.
> 
> To buy good product one has to take its time.




that's just an excuse to save face.

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## Bheemsen

ConcealCarry said:


> As the wise men say, never bite more than you can swallow, either you choke to death or be embarrassed to throw up.
> A decade long claims of unlimited resources and bloated statements of "india can buy anything, anytime, in any quantity"...LOL and these shameless guys would come in hordes to still claim 36 is the initial order with 150 more to follow......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hahaha as they say, when you spit facing up, you get to lick it back.......


I have have lot of money in my Fat purse dosent mean i would pay 3 times cost for anything , We are Baniyaa race dont forget pai pai ka Hisab karange and this govt is not there to fill its coffers like congress they want to spend defense money wisely and appropriately.


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## ConcealCarry

by "long-term" you mean it takes a very long time for nothing to happen!



jetray said:


> Well India wont buy F18's but might just bait US to see french response.
> 
> 
> India is long term market, its just not about aircraft. Probably french are confident that once selection has been made they can jack up the price.


----------



## $@rJen

Hell hound said:


> so France is demanding $13.3 billion while you guys are willing to pay $10 billion its still huge sum for just 36 jets man



Qatar and Egypt paid 7 billion for 24 Jets... don't you think that's heavy price too!!! Sir the ting is the package includes Weapons, infra and life cycle costs and france should also have to invest 50% of that in india. if we pay 10 billion for 36 then its less than what the Arabs paid


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## #hydra#

Nice. No need to surrender tax payers money on fancy rafale,su34,mki,lca combo can make havoc on enemy.


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## jetray

ConcealCarry said:


> by "long-term" you mean it takes a very long time for nothing to happen or india buys 126 fighters every year?


Mate its $10 billion deal , it will take time. Money does not grow on trees its our hard earned money. 
Well you see these are not f16's which come free and on time.


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## INDIAISM

ConcealCarry said:


> by "long-term" you mean it takes a very long time for nothing to happen!


By long term means we intially ordered 50 su 30 in 1996 today that number has increased to 272...


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## Oldman1



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## Shabi1

When you want complete local production and transfer of technology, of course price will be higher than off the shelf price. Add to the fact that ordered number is just 36. India should be prepared to pay higher price than Egypt and Qatar, not lower.


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## 帅的一匹

This deal'd been postponed too long, it becomes farce.

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## Oldman1

Shabi1 said:


> When you want complete local production and transfer of technology, of course price will be higher than off the shelf price. Add to the fact that ordered number is just 36. India should be prepared to pay higher price than Egypt and Qatar, not lower.



Taking technology from the Rafale, it be worth it. Talking many years of research and development as well as money involved.


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## 帅的一匹

Shabi1 said:


> When you want complete local production and transfer of technology, of course price will be higher than off the shelf price. Add to the fact that ordered number is just 36. India should be prepared to pay higher price than Egypt and Qatar, not lower.


Indians think the whole world will give them discount to them because they have money in the pocket. In the high end military aviation market, there is no buyer market.

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## Dungeness

It is becoming a Never Ending Story. Indian MoD should really look into their practice of conducting military procurement, as it has become a pattern to have countless announcements, delays, cancellations when it comes to arm purchases. They seem to enjoying the process of negotiation a little too much, and forgot the purpose of the negotiation. Buying something shouldn't have been this painful. Come on, if Egypt can do it, India should be able to do it too.

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## PARIKRAMA

Ajai Shukla is back with another piece to hit on Rafale

++
SOURCE: Ajai Shukla | Business-standard.com



Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar bluntly stated on Thursday that negotiations for buying 36 Rafale fighters from French aerospace vendor, Dassault, were deadlocked on the issue of price, and that no deal would be signed until the price was right.

Well-informed defence ministry sources that are close to the negotiation say there is a wide gulf between the two sides. "The difference between what France is demanding and what India is willing to pay is too large to bridge easily - about 25 per cent."

*Business Standard understands that Dassault has quoted about Rs 91,548 crore, while Indian negotiators are refusing to go above Rs 68,499 crore.*

Parrikar told India Today TV: "Price is the problem which has to be resolved. Unless I get the right price, I cannot sign."

Debunking recent media articles that a deal was imminent, most recently in Hindustan Times on February 11, Parrikar said ironing out the remaining issues would take "a few months".

Pressed on the question of time-frame, Parrikar responded: "You can't commit yourself to a time, because this is not a negotiation for a few hundred crores. This is thousands of crores. I should not… put a time line on my price negotiation."

On January 25, during his visit to Delhi, French President Francois Hollande declared after signing an inter-governmental agreement for the supply of 36 Rafales, "There are some financial issues that will be sorted out in a couple of days…" It now appears he may have been speaking figuratively.

On January 27, French ambassador to New Delhi, Francois Richier, put a deadline of four months for the price to be negotiated.

On Thrursday, Parrikar also confirmed that India had demanded offsets worth 50 per cent of the deal value, and that Dassault had agreed to that condition.

"We have resolved all the other issues. There were terms of guarantees, there were terms of supply, there were terms of how it will be done", said Parrikar.

The defence minister denied that the window was open for buying more Rafale fighters, beyond the 36 being currently negotiated. "As of now, the negotiation is for 36 (fighters). There are many possibilities, but this deal is for 36", he said.

When Prime Minister Narendra Modi, on a visit to Paris last April, requested for 36 Rafales, New Delhi and had Paris agreed the price would be less than what Dassault had quoted in response to the Indian tender of 2007 for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). Of those 126 fighters, the first 18 were to be supplied in "flyaway condition", i.e. fully built. Since 36 Rafales are now being bought in "flyaway condition", their per-piece price must be lower than what Dassault quoted for those 18 fighters.

The Indian Air Force had chosen the Rafale on January 31, 2012, in India's tender for 126 MMRCA aircraft. However, in protracted price negotiations that followed, the defence ministry found problems in Dassault's financial bid. Eventually, Modi chose to abandon the MMRCA tender, and instead buy 36 Rafales over-the-counter.


Source: No Rafale deal unless price is right: Parrikar | Business Standard News


----------



## 帅的一匹

Dungeness said:


> It is becoming a Never Ending Story. Indian MoD should really look into their practice of conducting military procurement, as it has become a pattern to have countless announcements, delays, cancellations when it comes to arm purchases. They seem to enjoying the process of negotiation a little too much, and forgot the purpose of the negotiation. Buying something shouldn't have been this painful. Come on, if Egypt can do it, India should be able to do it too.


He had forgotten the purpose of being MOD! He becomes the minister of negotiator. It buys lots of time for Pakistan.

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## Hell hound

sarjenprabhu said:


> Qatar and Egypt paid 7 billion for 24 Jets... don't you think that's heavy price too!!! Sir the ting is the package includes Weapons, infra and life cycle costs and france should also have to invest 50% of that in india. if we pay 10 billion for 36 then its less than what the Arabs paid


mate its not cheap french weapons never are but after doing cost benefit analysis you will find that there are only three feasible arm supplier in today's weapon market USA, RUSSIA and CHINA. European produce good weapons but when it come to cost they lose out to these big threes.reason being high R&D cost ,high production cost and no economies of scale because of small number of unit produced.so they are only best when you need specialized weapons.for basic weapons (forgive me for using this word but fighter jet is like basic weapon or a building block for an air force) above vendors should be considered.and mate i don't know the clauses in offset contract but basically what the contract do is force vendor to invest in a particular sector in your country.but what most of guys forget is that the money is still theirs they will get the returns on it.these investment are considered like normal investments and like any investor they still have substantial control over it and they will do their best to get maximum return out of it.i am not saying i won't benefit you it surely will but to what amount it is still under their control. its much better to get this offset deal with tot as by doing this you are making it more feasible for them to make parts in your country and in return making your defense sector strong. but without tot they wont invest in production so i don't see attraction in this stand alone offset deal.they will invest it as they please.so my point drop this offset clause and get rafale at cheaper price if you want it so badly other wise go for Russian or american and invest the remaining balance yourself in your country.


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## Dungeness

wanglaokan said:


> He had forgotten the purpose of being MOD! He becomes the minister of negotiator. It buys lots of time for Pakistan.



Yes, MMRCA project has been dragging on for more than 10 years. This is really the time wasted for IAF.


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## 45'22'

Tshering22 said:


> This means we will order more Su-30MKIs instead of Rafales and ultimately drop it.
> 
> Dassault found its new customer in Egypt and has opened up new areas. Most likely they won't budge.


Mki's will touch 340 and we will go for rafales as well

India is a big market....if Dassault has even a little brain then they certainly will negotiate....


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## slapshot

So the last fling in forums about deal being finalized and done was yet another waste of time and bandwidth?

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## somebozo

Right time for Pakistan to engage Dassault and then Indians will purchase it for whatever price tag it comes..Pakistan should prefix a sales comission with Dassault...

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## Hell hound

somebozo said:


> Right time for Pakistan to engage Dassault and then Indians will purchase it for whatever price tag it comes..Pakistan should prefix a sales comission with Dassault...


i like the way think man purely evil and extremely genius .


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## slapshot

somebozo said:


> Right time for Pakistan to engage Dassault and then Indians will purchase it for whatever price tag it comes..Pakistan should prefix a sales comission with Dassault...


 Pakistan should take advantage for sure. Either you will annoy Indians or you may actually get lucky and get what you wanted. Lets give the French leverage they are needing to close this deal...

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## PARIKRAMA

strangely other news sources in last 24 hours quote something like

_India signed an inter-governmental pact with France to buy 36 Rafale fighters but the price negotiations are still on. France is said to have quoted around $9 billion for the 36 jets._
Rafale fighter jet deal stuck because price is a problem, says Manohar Parrikar - Firstpost

_India signed an inter-governmental pact with France to buy 36 Rafale fighters but the price negotiations are still on. France is said to have quoted around $9 billion for the 36 jets.
The deal would includes two types of missiles and bombs, training of pilots and base facilities for the planes._ 
Rafale deal stuck on price: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar - The Economic Times

The source of these news is IANS.


$9Bn is RS 61K..

Ajai shukla and Business Standard quoted 


PARIKRAMA said:


> *Business Standard understands that Dassault has quoted about Rs 91,548 crore, while Indian negotiators are refusing to go above Rs 68,499 crore.*



USD 13.46 Bn Dassault wants and India is ready for USD 10 Bn

Strange to me what breakup Ajai shukla is coming up with..

Even if i use instead of 36 but rather full lock in of 36+18 options, i dont see how price can reach USD13.46 Bn or Euro 12.5 Bn whereas starting price in source based news and public was Euro 11.5 Bn which came down to Euro 8 Bn with a scope of cutting down further 700 Mn approx and bring down the overall deal price to Euro 7.3 Bn

I think our press is now shooting from their behinds now.. Its just a hogwash figure...

Bharat Karnad will pick this figure and say 91548/36= 2543 crs a plane and India wants to pay 68499/36 = 1902 Crs
In the price we will get 4 MKis almost 9 LCAs and what not...

+++
I feel we need good defense reporters.. URGENTLY

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## #hydra#

somebozo said:


> Right time for Pakistan to engage Dassault and then Indians will purchase it for whatever price tag it comes..Pakistan should prefix a sales comission with Dassault...


If they assit you guys on jf17 avionics,ys there is a chance of such move from india.


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## Vergennes

Oldman1 said:


> Taking technology from the Rafale, it be worth it. Talking many years of research and development as well as money involved.



Exporting our products : YES.

ToT : Not very keen on that. Is that worth it to transfer our skills,technologies,knowledge etc. that it took us decades and billions of € to develop ? Just for few Bn of € ?
Because at the end,when Indians will know to make everything,will they still buy from us ?
Their products could be in the future a threat to our exports.

@wanglaokan @Shabi1 @Hell hound @somebozo @slapshot @C130 @Dungeness

@Taygibay

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## C130

Vauban said:


> Exporting our products : YES.
> 
> ToT : Not very keen on that. Is that worth it to transfer our skills,technologies,knowledge etc. that it took us decades and billions of € to develop ? Just for few Bn of € ?
> Because at the end,when Indians will now to make everything,will they still buy from us ?
> Their products could be in the future a threat to our exports.
> 
> @wanglaokan @Shabi1 @Hell hound @somebozo @slapshot @C130 @Dungeness




the Rafale has some awesome tech in it and the Rafale is in my top 3 of favorite jets, but this whole deal has just been a disaster.


but I can see how France would be hesitant to give full ToT.

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## PARIKRAMA

OK folks,
I am not giving you here a rant but i was wondering few things here.. Post the news of multiple (1 or 2) new lines under MII, i was trying to understand how serious is perhaps one particular bid and scope of so called help in our AMCA program..

After googling and reading few stuffs over last 2 days (and yes i posted limited during the same time here .. apologies could not contribute much), i am pasting few things here..

The company and line in question is Boeing and F18s

*Here is the first thing*, a scan of an old article from Hindu dated 03-04-08







This article talks about Boeing Consulting role talks with ADA for our beloved LCA program

What i understand is this bid of consultancy role was blocked by US in the same year bcz in 2009 ADA approached Lockheed Martin for a similar consulting role. What i understand is there is a 90 day window cited for getting clearance from US government by Boeing where it was stalled.
*
Now the second thing*
Back then in September 2009, our Ajai Shukla only reported that USA government blocked LM's help for LCA

_The US government is, for the second time, squeezing American aerospace giant Lockheed Martin out of an important contract related to India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

Business Standard learns that Lockheed Martin, selected in June as a consultant for developing the Naval version of the Tejas, was given 90 days to obtain the clearances it needed from the US government. But now, with time running out, Washington has sent Lockheed Martin a list of questions about what assistance the company will provide.

Lockheed Martin’s current situation replicates that of Boeing, which was front-runner for the air force Tejas consultancy. But *earlier this year, after the US government failed to grant Boeing a clearance *(called Technical Assistance Agreement) in time, the defence ministry awarded EADS the contract. The European consortium obtained the sanctions in time and is now working with ADA._
US puts Lockheed off Tejas flight path | Business Standard News

*So my above point of 90 day clearance not granted is validated*

*My third point *
Back in 2011, based on Wikileaks leaking a confidential cable by Timothy Roemer, ambassador to India, USA folks are not keen with any tie up with HAL. This was in context with MMRCA Bid.

_The Financial Times, in a report on Friday, cited US ambassador to India Timothy Roemer as saying in a confidential cable last year that was leaked by WikiLeaks: “The potential for HAL to successfully partner with US firms on a truly advanced aircraft remains untested and suspect.”_
HAL dismisses concerns over its ability - Livemint

Effectively what i am trying to point out is even today after about 5 years of passage the view of the house among US MIC has not changed much. So, its still points to no tie up with DPSU.. Verbally all talk about a healthy relationship with HAL (Both Boeing, LM etc) but in reality their actions are far from this.. Its a similar approach with ADA whom they gave cold shoulder under pressure from US government.

*My fourth point* is the proof about what Boeing stipulated under the guidance of US government
_
Boeing has stipulated that Tejas should not be sold to another country without U.S. permission
ADA officials find this unacceptable since no U.S.-made equipment is to be fitted on the Tejas

The Bush administration seems to be dragging its feet over giving the go-ahead to Boeing providing consultancy for the light combat aircraft, Tejas, programme.

The consultancy, offered to the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is designing and developing the Tejas), will run for 42 months.

It envisages Boeing, which has sufficient experience on flight test programmes like its F-18 Hornet, providing the ADA with crucial inputs on flight tests that would help in avoiding unnecessary flights, saving costs and shortening of the design and development phases.

Said an official: “We can’t understand why the U.S. government is making a big thing out of something like a consultancy programme in flight testing. It is strange that it is being linked to the possible sale of the aircraft [Tejas]. This does not augur well for the seriousness of American weapons/defence corporation with India.”
Boeing delaying consultancy for Tejas programme - NATIONAL - The Hindu
_
So you see the trend here.. Whatever is being developed must not threaten what exists in their product portfolio of US MICs


So the conclusion part

What benefit Boeing will bring for AMCA project?
Will it not repeat the "consulting" history seen like above?
Is AMCA not a direct threat to both its F18 future and later an F35 future prospects in India
Is AMCA and LCA not killing the market prospects for F16s/F18s and F35 in Indian context?
Its clear Boeing wont have a tie up with DPSU and Beoing wont like a big conglomerate like TATA too owing to "sensitive hi end technology" being used in "F18s" - a line often used in US congress wordings,, so for a more control it would always wish to go solo..
So how will GOI/MOD have any control?
To me it still looks just words to sugar coat their intent of denying India anything which constitutes meaningful technology transfer or any success of AMCA program

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @anant_s @randomradio @Dash @raktaka @Armani @Masterhunter @surya kiran @Ankit Kumar @others

Does all this makes you feel anything? The history shows something which we have already experienced.. should we learn from history or again bet on US/Boeing and F18 prospects under MII + associated "help" into AMCA program

I have a similar view about SAAB also..

Gentlemen, your thoughts on this could help me understand a bit better .. i do have an opinion atm but would like more rational backing on this.. So a good discussion is in order about the true intentions here....
_
Hope I am not out of line from the context of this thread .. just wished to plainly understand the real intentions and actual feasible aspect of this so called offer.._

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## GURU DUTT

Vauban said:


> Exporting our products : YES.
> 
> ToT : Not very keen on that. Is that worth it to transfer our skills,technologies,knowledge etc. that it took us decades and billions of € to develop ? Just for few Bn of € ?
> Because at the end,when Indians will know to make everything,will they still buy from us ?
> Their products could be in the future a threat to our exports.
> 
> @wanglaokan @Shabi1 @Hell hound @somebozo @slapshot @C130 @Dungeness
> 
> @Taygibay


you 100% right bro no one shares there hard work and best techs just for few billion dollars worth profit cause in the end its more harmfull than good but as a buyer we want the best deal and both are main factors in any deal and im sure rafales will never make it Mr. Pariker could not have been more blunt to say that .... good now MOD should dump rafale for F/A-18 E/F advanced super hornet and growler as they are more leathel and have engine comminallity with our future projects like Tejas MK2 & AMCA ... nuff said

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## calmDown@all

Vauban said:


> Exporting our products : YES.
> 
> ToT : Not very keen on that. Is that worth it to transfer our skills,technologies,knowledge etc. that it took us decades and billions of € to develop ? Just for few Bn of € ?
> Because at the end,when Indians will know to make everything,will they still buy from us ?
> Their products could be in the future a threat to our exports.
> 
> @wanglaokan @Shabi1 @Hell hound @somebozo @slapshot @C130 @Dungeness
> 
> @Taygibay



bien monsieur u voir que nous sommes indien est pas les parasites pathétiques comme quelques autres est parce que lorsque nous développons une relation avec quelqu'un de quelque nature que nous sommes totalement dévoués à elle dans le ex.- de simples profanes terme de la rivalité indo- pak est un bon exemple pour u ...et dans le même exemple de temps de liens indo- russe dans le monde et u trouver , peu importe ce que peut être la relation 
même pour la France , nous pouvons passer à côté ou sur la même ligne ou soit
Et étant donné que nous avons une bonne relation historique de nous pourrions poursuivre le développement mutuel !!!

thanks regards!!!

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## surya kiran

Let us understand one thing. There is no tech going to come from the Americans. Never has. Never will.If it comes, will be couple of generations old.

There is no cutting edge tech going to come from the French either. Unless, there is something in it for them. What will this entail? Risk diversification. A program which can be developed together, where monies are put equally on the table. Business is assured for the French companies and Indian companies.

Same applies for Russia and Israel.

Only other way, kick our private companies into R&D. You know how to do it? Give them tax breaks if they invest in a list of universities for research. Ensure universities deliver. Provide them with cutting edge systems and grants to ape the American universities for now. Get the Indian students going abroad with incentives to do research in India under the companies' grants.

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## PARIKRAMA

surya kiran said:


> Let us understand one thing. There is no tech going to come from the Americans. Never has. Never will.If it comes, will be couple of generations old.
> 
> There is no cutting edge tech going to come from the French either. Unless, there is something in it for them. What will this entail? Risk diversification. A program which can be developed together, where monies are put equally on the table. Business is assured for the French companies and Indian companies.
> 
> Same applies for Russia and Israel.
> 
> Only other way, kick our private companies into R&D. You know how to do it? Give them tax breaks if they invest in a list of universities for research. Ensure universities deliver. Provide them with cutting edge systems and grants to ape the American universities for now. Get the Indian students going abroad with incentives to do research in India under the companies' grants.



Good points ..
But then need to ask how come the opinion of our common people and gullible media cant see the truth which is out there plain as daylight...
Especially since its in context with US India relationship where we talk very big and deliver very little..

About Risk diversification strategy, i dont doubt that but in practical terms what each of the nations want from us in a joint program is our money and their tech as the JV venture.. A case in point being FGFA program or even take Brahmos for example.. essentially there is no true joint program as we learned nothing at blue print level to manufacturing level which helps us use the "learned" technology on other aspects and build on our MIC... Of course IPR is an issue.. But in reality have we learned anything from the JVs?

About R&D part fully agree.. But Tax break and R&D does not go hand in hand... A better way is perhaps asking mandatorily every company to dedicate 1% of their profits on R&D like 2% of last three-year average annual net profit on CSR activities . This way a giant R&D pool can be created for the future...

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## 帅的一匹

To be honest, 10 billions for only 36 units is crazy. India shall stick with MKI, and continue to churn out Tejas. I would rather induct F16 assembly lines instead of going Rafale. When a fighter is expensive like that, it's not operational capable anymore. It's just expensive showcase.

The good news is that both China and Pakistan are not malign neighbors so that Indians could take their time.

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## Dungeness

Vauban said:


> Exporting our products : YES.
> 
> ToT : Not very keen on that. Is that worth it to transfer our skills,technologies,knowledge etc. that it took us decades and billions of € to develop ? Just for few Bn of € ?
> Because at the end,when Indians will know to make everything,will they still buy from us ?
> Their products could be in the future a threat to our exports.
> 
> @wanglaokan @Shabi1 @Hell hound @somebozo @slapshot @C130 @Dungeness
> 
> @Taygibay



I am not a believer of TRUE ToT. Sure you can transplant or copy/paste the facility, and you can transfer technical documents, but you can't really transfer the CORE technologies that others have spent decades and huge amount of resource to master. 

I am sure French will teach Indians HOW to make parts, and HOW to put parts together, but they will never tell you WHY it should done in certain way, in fact, nobody in the world will. Indian got a good deal on Mig-21 from Soviet, with full ToT in 1962, and we can see just how much that ToT helped India's aircraft design capability. Can they design a Mig-21 class fighter without substantial foreign help now? I doubt it. They blame everything on SOE, and bet their fortune on private companies now, as if the word "private" is some kind of magic potion. 

If you counting the original RFI, India's MMRCA program is about 14 years old now, and we are not seeing the end to it. Negotiation is not about penny-pinching, but it is about getting your original goal accomplished. Maybe Indian can take a leaf from Indonesia's play book on this regard. They are a smaller country, and their main military contractor is a state owned company, but they seem to accomplish a lot. 

Indonesian Aerospace Industry | Page 18

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## migflug

*Reasons Why the Modi govt stuck on Rafale*
Posted on February 19, 2016 by Bharat Karnad
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar in a TV interview (to Karan Thapar) yesterday evening sounded very determined that 36 Rafales would be brought from Dassault Avions, France, and that Paris would have to meet Delhi’s stated price (not exceeding $7 billion, which figure, of course, he didn’t mention). In this context, when queried about the significance of the MOU (Memorandum of Understanding) signed when Hollande was here for the Republic Day parade, he stated that this document is “meaningful only to the extent that the procedure [for advancing the deal] is laid out.” The only relief for India, ironically, would be if the French too stick to their negotiating figure of $11+ billion.

The trouble with making price the decisive factor — “Price, he said, “is the only issue…is the problem”, and implied India would walk away from the deal unless India “gets the right price” — is that all the other negatives attending on this horrendous buy are sought to be ignored. While the Indian position is now firmed up, Parrikar’s support for the Rafale suggests that despite his instinct telling him to go in for many more Su-30MKIs obtainable for the same investment, the BJP regime feels bound to honour PM Narendra Modi’s word to Hollande, and is doing its mostest to get the deal done, whatever the other costs (such as complicating operations, logistics, infrastructure, etc) that the IAF and country will have to bear for decades to come.

This raises the question — what exactly is Paris’ quid for the Indian quo? Some well connected persons believe it is Hollande’s promise of supporting India’s candidature for a permanent seat in the UN Security Council, whenever that issue formally comes up for consideration. Realistically speaking, and short of the UN imploding as did the League of Nations in the 1930s when that body proved incapable of stopping Mussolini from occupying Ethiopia, Imperial Japan from absorbing Manchuria, and Hitler from taking over the Sudentanland region of Czechoslovakia, and a new world body is erected in its place, that is never. The provincial politician in Modi, however, seems to be acting as per the Gujarati trader’s credo of honouring a verbal commitment. Except the Rafale deal is in the external realm where “the word” counts for less than nothing, a fact-of-life the PM either does not understand and, if he does, does not quite appreciate. And India ends up paying the price. Any argument therefore about the uneconomical aspects of the Rafale deal are for the birds!

But why’s the IAF so dumb as to disregard the operational aspects and push so vehemently for the Rafale? In a previous piece, I had stated that for the unit cost of $270 million per Rafale, India could buy three LCAs @ $90 million or 2 Su-MKIs @ $130 million. Vice Admiral AK Singh, former FOC-in-C, Eastern Naval Command, and a stalwart of the military procurement process, called to say that my figures were, perhaps, for fully weaponised Tejas and Su-30 and, by way of more “correct” figures, mentioned that the cost of a clean Tejas (as released by HAL) is $30 million, and $50 million for a Su-30MKI. By the AK Singh calculus then the country can have NINE LCAs or FIVE Su-30s. Fully armed and equipped, the cost figures for these three aircraft get even more skewed. A basic weapons load (of A2A missiles & A2G rockets/bombs) will up the price of a Rafale to $400 million per aircraft, $50 million/Tejas, and $90 million/Su-30. Thus, all-up cost ($400 million) of a Rafale will actually fetch IAF EIGHT fully-armed Tejas and 4.5 Su-30s.

In my books and writings have stressed the importance of quantity over quality, and how an exorbitantly-priced Rafale, assuming it is fielded in war considering the Indian military’s inclination to not deploy its most prized platforms during hostilities (recall Vikrant confined to Vizag harbour during the 1965 War! Mirage 2000 was featured in Kargil because of Vajpayee govt’s order to IAF not to cross LoC) would be swarmed and killed by the more numerous Pakistan-assembled, Russian MiG-21 design Chinese rejigged JF-17s, say, each costing Islamabad no more than $22 million. (The $22 million price tag for the JF-17 being disclosed to VADM Singh by retd PAF AVM Shehzad Chaudhury at a recent 2nd-track meet.)

Indian armed services are known for stodginess, not strategic imagination and operational verve. And the civilian bureaucrats running the show in MOD are entirely innocent of any specialized knowledge. So one can pretty much know the quality of advice provided the national security-wise unlettered politicians. Even so, one expected Parrikar to be a bit more on the ball, use his common sense and publicly available information to +try and convince Modi about the sheer wastefulness of the Rafale deal, and decide on more reasonable, money-saving, options (including purchasing Mirage 2000s from UAE and Qatar, as proposed in an earlier blog).

Then again, just may be, IIT grads are not all they are cracked up to be.


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## GURU DUTT

wanglaokan said:


> To be honest, 10 billions for only 36 units is crazy. India shall stick with MKI, and continue to churn out Tejas. I would rather induct F16 assembly lines instead of going Rafale. When a fighter is expensive like that, it's not operational capable anymore. It's just expensive showcase.
> 
> The good news is that both China and Pakistan are not malign neighbors so that Indians could take their time.


thats right the rafale deal from day one i guess was a huge frace and niether france nor indian MOD were honest in the deal then it was scrapped but since dassult had already "invested" a huge sum with earlier UPA they wanted a the handsome returns or at least a respectable refund and they got niether hence they jacked up the price and MOD yet again said "no"

having said that whats the future well GE404,414 & 414EP are already done deals and SH F/A -18 has engine cominallity and many american weapons and systems are already in tejas with israeli make hence super hornet is the next MRCA till AMCA comes and MKI is already in for a AESA upgrade which will be good enof till FGFA comes hence no point in going for rafale cause sooner than later when mass production kick starts of F35 its gonna be at same price as that what rafale is or would be in couple of years time so rafale in short is a dead deal ... nuff said


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## 帅的一匹

Although I'm a Chinese, I am so worried for IAF. I don't feel happy about the delay cause I don't feel hostile toward India. Parika shall understand the notion of TIME! Damn it. At least he shall address the bandwidth of all those patriotic Indian members in PDF.

Although I'm a Chinese, I am so worried for IAF. I don't feel happy about the delay cause I don't feel hostile toward India. Parika shall understand the notion of TIME! Damn it. At least he shall address the bandwidth of all those patriotic Indian members in PDF.

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## Hell hound

Vauban said:


> Exporting our products : YES.
> 
> ToT : Not very keen on that. Is that worth it to transfer our skills,technologies,knowledge etc. that it took us decades and billions of € to develop ? Just for few Bn of € ?
> Because at the end,when Indians will know to make everything,will they still buy from us ?
> Their products could be in the future a threat to our exports.
> 
> @wanglaokan @Shabi1 @Hell hound @somebozo @slapshot @C130 @Dungeness
> 
> @Taygibay


spoken like a true business man.
so mate what will be the repercussions if deal don't go through and India chose another (hypothetically speaking).

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## GURU DUTT

wanglaokan said:


> Although I'm a Chinese, I am so worried for IAF. I don't feel happy about the delay cause I don't feel hostile toward India. Parika shall understand the notion of TIME! Damn it. At least he shall address the bandwidth of all those patriotic Indian members in PDF.
> 
> Although I'm a Chinese, I am so worried for IAF. I don't feel happy about the delay cause I don't feel hostile toward India. Parika shall understand the notion of TIME! Damn it. At least he shall address the bandwidth of all those patriotic Indian members in PDF.


knock knock china is never a friend or at least seen like one for any indian deu to 1962 and arming our enemy having said that we can at least live like normal compettitive naighbours (at least we both are trying) so having said that we need to prepair for the worst (india-pakistan+china war) and hope for the best (india china strategick partnership/ firendship) but that never gonna happen till china behaves on its repeated infringements indian territory and bogus claims on our states and islands 

so pariker or XYZ that will remain a dream only sad but true look at it through any angel result will be same cheers mate


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## Vergennes

Hell hound said:


> spoken like a true business man.
> so mate what will be the repercussions if deal don't go through and India chose another (hypothetically speaking).



The Indians will of course buy the 36,because Modi needs this deal. (Face saving,you know...) @C130 
And as we found new clients for the Rafale (Qatar,Egypt) and soon a deal could be signed with the UAE for 60 Rafale,(Deal in final stages!),we are in better positions in the negociations than we were 4 years ago.
-
The target might have decreased from 126 to 36,but at least,the 36 will be built in France. (Compared to 18.)

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## Hell hound

GURU DUTT said:


> thats right the rafale deal from day one i guess was a huge frace and niether france nor indian MOD were honest in the deal then it was scrapped but since dassult had already "invested" a huge sum with earlier UPA they wanted a the handsome returns or at least a respectable refund and they got niether hence they jacked up the price and MOD yet again said "no"
> 
> having said that whats the future well GE404,414 & 414EP are already done deals and SH F/A -18 has engine cominallity and many american weapons and systems are already in tejas with israeli make hence super hornet is the next MRCA till AMCA comes and MKI is already in for a AESA upgrade which will be good enof till FGFA comes hence no point in going for rafale cause sooner than later when mass production kick starts of F35 its gonna be at same price as that what rafale is or would be in couple of years time so rafale in short is a dead deal ... nuff said


i don't know why you never chose f 18 it was and great plane.if it was spectra or other EW capabilities you were after (as most Indian claim here) then let me show you the EW capabilities of growler.this monster can beat the hell out of f22 in EW what else do you guys need which it can't provide and pls don't say sanctions issue because you are already using american engine for tejas if you guys were so afraid of sanction you wouldn't have chosen it in the first place.


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## GURU DUTT

Vauban said:


> The Indians will of course buy the 36,because Modi needs this deal. (Face saving,you know...) @C130
> And as we found new clients for the Rafale (Qatar,Egypt) and soon a deal could be signed with the UAE for 60 Rafale,(Deal in final stages!),we are in better positions in the negociations than we were 4 years ago.
> -
> The target might have decreased from 126 to 36,but at least,the 36 will be built in France. (Compared to 18.)


wrong Modi was initally for the rafales but when dassult dint agree on the pricing things went bad and the orignally planned rafales were 36+18(french built)+90(indian built+36 M for IN) but now that is history



Hell hound said:


> i don't know why you never chose f 18 it was and great plane.if it was spectra or other EW capabilities you were after (as most Indian claim here) then let me show you the EW capabilities of growler.this monster can beat the hell out of f22 in EW what else do you guys need which it can't provide and pls don't say sanctions issue because you are already using american engine for tejas if you guys were so afraid of sanction you wouldn't have chosen it in the first place.
> View attachment 294528


cause USA had have bad experience with kick backs in sub continent and IAF top honchos wount have got a dime had there been a govt to govt deal other wise there is nothing in the world that comes close to super hornets in maturity in AESA tech(radars , EW & ECM suites and avionicks) weapons and weapons intigration and actual combat experience but this "strings attached" is also a frace like TOT to fool gullible tax payers in india ... think about it


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## 帅的一匹

F18 is an average plane, not good enough.


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## GURU DUTT

wanglaokan said:


> F18 is an average plane, not good enough.


lolzzz now what can i say .... cheers mate


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## PoKeMon

Shabi1 said:


> When you want complete local production and transfer of technology, of course price will be higher than off the shelf price. Add to the fact that ordered number is just 36. India should be prepared to pay higher price than Egypt and Qatar, not lower.



We are also buying off the shelf.

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## 帅的一匹

If India could closed the deal four years ago, they are taking advantage of everything.


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## Hell hound

wanglaokan said:


> F18 is an average plane, not good enough.


mate once carrier equipment is removed f 18 shed substantial amount of weight thus improving all of it characteristic like maneuverability,weapon and fuel carrying capability.
EW capability on f 18 is off the charts.normally kill is not inscribed on a jets body unless it has actually shot down the plane but in this exceptional case imagine what it would have done to the f 22 that they inscribed it on the growler.
@gambit sir your insight on this pic will be greatly appreciated regards.





(sorry guys for posting the same pic twice but needed gambits opinion on it )

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> strangely other news sources in last 24 hours quote something like
> 
> _India signed an inter-governmental pact with France to buy 36 Rafale fighters but the price negotiations are still on. France is said to have quoted around $9 billion for the 36 jets._
> Rafale fighter jet deal stuck because price is a problem, says Manohar Parrikar - Firstpost
> 
> _India signed an inter-governmental pact with France to buy 36 Rafale fighters but the price negotiations are still on. France is said to have quoted around $9 billion for the 36 jets.
> The deal would includes two types of missiles and bombs, training of pilots and base facilities for the planes._
> Rafale deal stuck on price: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar - The Economic Times
> 
> The source of these news is IANS.
> 
> 
> $9Bn is RS 61K..
> 
> Ajai shukla and Business Standard quoted
> 
> 
> USD 13.46 Bn Dassault wants and India is ready for USD 10 Bn
> 
> Strange to me what breakup Ajai shukla is coming up with..
> 
> Even if i use instead of 36 but rather full lock in of 36+18 options, i dont see how price can reach USD13.46 Bn or Euro 12.5 Bn whereas starting price in source based news and public was Euro 11.5 Bn which came down to Euro 8 Bn with a scope of cutting down further 700 Mn approx and bring down the overall deal price to Euro 7.3 Bn
> 
> I think our press is now shooting from their behinds now.. Its just a hogwash figure...
> 
> Bharat Karnad will pick this figure and say 91548/36= 2543 crs a plane and India wants to pay 68499/36 = 1902 Crs
> In the price we will get 4 MKis almost 9 LCAs and what not...
> 
> +++
> I feel we need good defense reporters.. URGENTLY


Well, this is the continuation of the MMRCA/Rafale saga, just another in a long long line of dubious reports that seem to have no relation to the real world, when such threads are started now, I don't even bother replying. It is oh so predictable, within 2-3 posts "let's get the F-18","France is ripping us off", "haha, this is still going on?", " deal has gone from 36 to 126 and the price has gone up", "OMG, $500 million a plane France is charging us" etc etc


THIS is why I don't agree with @randomradio that some in the media know the "true cost/jet requirement" because the range in quoted prices is simply too large to account for small errors of measure. They are either being mislead or are purposely putting out misinformation on someone else's behalf. When SAAB are still pumping in millions into their Gripen for India campaign and Boeing/LM/EFT are still hopeful too what else does one expect? There is no such thing as journalistic integrity in India. They will sell their own mothers for some TRPs- If it not outright bribes.



PARIKRAMA said:


> OK folks,
> I am not giving you here a rant but i was wondering few things here.. Post the news of multiple (1 or 2) new lines under MII, i was trying to understand how serious is perhaps one particular bid and scope of so called help in our AMCA program..
> 
> After googling and reading few stuffs over last 2 days (and yes i posted limited during the same time here .. apologies could not contribute much), i am pasting few things here..
> 
> The company and line in question is Boeing and F18s
> 
> *Here is the first thing*, a scan of an old article from Hindu dated 03-04-08
> 
> View attachment 294510
> 
> 
> This article talks about Boeing Consulting role talks with ADA for our beloved LCA program
> 
> What i understand is this bid of consultancy role was blocked by US in the same year bcz in 2009 ADA approached Lockheed Martin for a similar consulting role. What i understand is there is a 90 day window cited for getting clearance from US government by Boeing where it was stalled.
> *
> Now the second thing*
> Back then in September 2009, our Ajai Shukla only reported that USA government blocked LM's help for LCA
> 
> _The US government is, for the second time, squeezing American aerospace giant Lockheed Martin out of an important contract related to India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).
> 
> Business Standard learns that Lockheed Martin, selected in June as a consultant for developing the Naval version of the Tejas, was given 90 days to obtain the clearances it needed from the US government. But now, with time running out, Washington has sent Lockheed Martin a list of questions about what assistance the company will provide.
> 
> Lockheed Martin’s current situation replicates that of Boeing, which was front-runner for the air force Tejas consultancy. But *earlier this year, after the US government failed to grant Boeing a clearance *(called Technical Assistance Agreement) in time, the defence ministry awarded EADS the contract. The European consortium obtained the sanctions in time and is now working with ADA._
> US puts Lockheed off Tejas flight path | Business Standard News
> 
> *So my above point of 90 day clearance not granted is validated*
> 
> *My third point *
> Back in 2011, based on Wikileaks leaking a confidential cable by Timothy Roemer, ambassador to India, USA folks are not keen with any tie up with HAL. This was in context with MMRCA Bid.
> 
> _The Financial Times, in a report on Friday, cited US ambassador to India Timothy Roemer as saying in a confidential cable last year that was leaked by WikiLeaks: “The potential for HAL to successfully partner with US firms on a truly advanced aircraft remains untested and suspect.”_
> HAL dismisses concerns over its ability - Livemint
> 
> Effectively what i am trying to point out is even today after about 5 years of passage the view of the house among US MIC has not changed much. So, its still points to no tie up with DPSU.. Verbally all talk about a healthy relationship with HAL (Both Boeing, LM etc) but in reality their actions are far from this.. Its a similar approach with ADA whom they gave cold shoulder under pressure from US government.
> 
> *My fourth point* is the proof about what Boeing stipulated under the guidance of US government
> _
> Boeing has stipulated that Tejas should not be sold to another country without U.S. permission
> ADA officials find this unacceptable since no U.S.-made equipment is to be fitted on the Tejas
> 
> The Bush administration seems to be dragging its feet over giving the go-ahead to Boeing providing consultancy for the light combat aircraft, Tejas, programme.
> 
> The consultancy, offered to the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is designing and developing the Tejas), will run for 42 months.
> 
> It envisages Boeing, which has sufficient experience on flight test programmes like its F-18 Hornet, providing the ADA with crucial inputs on flight tests that would help in avoiding unnecessary flights, saving costs and shortening of the design and development phases.
> 
> Said an official: “We can’t understand why the U.S. government is making a big thing out of something like a consultancy programme in flight testing. It is strange that it is being linked to the possible sale of the aircraft [Tejas]. This does not augur well for the seriousness of American weapons/defence corporation with India.”
> Boeing delaying consultancy for Tejas programme - NATIONAL - The Hindu
> _
> So you see the trend here.. Whatever is being developed must not threaten what exists in their product portfolio of US MICs
> 
> 
> So the conclusion part
> 
> What benefit Boeing will bring for AMCA project?
> Will it not repeat the "consulting" history seen like above?
> Is AMCA not a direct threat to both its F18 future and later an F35 future prospects in India
> Is AMCA and LCA not killing the market prospects for F16s/F18s and F35 in Indian context?
> Its clear Boeing wont have a tie up with DPSU and Beoing wont like a big conglomerate like TATA too owing to "sensitive hi end technology" being used in "F18s" - a line often used in US congress wordings,, so for a more control it would always wish to go solo..
> So how will GOI/MOD have any control?
> To me it still looks just words to sugar coat their intent of denying India anything which constitutes meaningful technology transfer or any success of AMCA program
> 
> @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @anant_s @randomradio @Dash @raktaka @Armani @Masterhunter @surya kiran @Ankit Kumar @others
> 
> Does all this makes you feel anything? The history shows something which we have already experienced.. should we learn from history or again bet on US/Boeing and F18 prospects under MII + associated "help" into AMCA program
> 
> I have a similar view about SAAB also..
> 
> Gentlemen, your thoughts on this could help me understand a bit better .. i do have an opinion atm but would like more rational backing on this.. So a good discussion is in order about the true intentions here....
> _
> Hope I am not out of line from the context of this thread .. just wished to plainly understand the real intentions and actual feasible aspect of this so called offer.._



Hey, I don't need convincing that American fighters should be avoided at all costs. Not only do they offer signficantly inferior ToT and performance benefits but, most importantly, they actually undermine the strategic nature of this procurement because of the USG's restrictive military sales regulations. I'm not so sure why so many Indians are willing to see their country become a vassal state for only a few hundred new fighter jets- at least get more than that if you're so insistent on comprimsing your autonomy.

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## raktaka

PARIKRAMA said:


> To me it still looks just words to sugar coat their intent of denying India anything which constitutes meaningful technology transfer or any success of AMCA program



This is pretty much how it has been and will always be. There is no surprise here. 



> Does all this makes you feel anything? The history shows something which we have already experienced.. should we learn from history or again bet on US/Boeing and F18 prospects under MII + associated "help" into AMCA program



No one in the govt. is ever going to bet on the US. There is nothing to feel, only the cold dark truth. The idea here is to get the US to grant permission for the GE 414 to be made in India and power the AMCA so that its sanction proof. Alternative is to make our own engine and that will take its own sweet time. 



> I have a similar view about SAAB also..
> 
> Gentlemen, your thoughts on this could help me understand a bit better .. i do have an opinion atm but would like more rational backing on this.. So a good discussion is in order about the true intentions here....
> _
> Hope I am not out of line from the context of this thread .. just wished to plainly understand the real intentions and actual feasible aspect of this so called offer.._



Boeing / LM speaks from compulsion (US laws), US govt. speaks from arrogance and prejudice. US citizens speaks from ignorance. 

Pouring money into R&D is not really a choice. 

About SAAB, they need us. Their future is dark unless they pair up with somebody. Europe do not need them, nor do China (EU won't allow it in any case). Who else exist ? only India. Which is why the SAAB deal with work. Its a Win Win.

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## $@rJen

Hell hound said:


> mate its not cheap french weapons never are but after doing cost benefit analysis you will find that there are only three feasible arm supplier in today's weapon market USA, RUSSIA and CHINA. European produce good weapons but when it come to cost they lose out to these big threes.reason being high R&D cost ,high production cost and no economies of scale because of small number of unit produced.so they are only best when you need specialized weapons.for basic weapons (forgive me for using this word but fighter jet is like basic weapon or a building block for an air force) above vendors should be considered.and mate i don't know the clauses in offset contract but basically what the contract do is force vendor to invest in a particular sector in your country.but what most of guys forget is that the money is still theirs they will get the returns on it.these investment are considered like normal investments and like any investor they still have substantial control over it and they will do their best to get maximum return out of it.i am not saying i won't benefit you it surely will but to what amount it is still under their control. its much better to get this offset deal with tot as by doing this you are making it more feasible for them to make parts in your country and in return making your defense sector strong. but without tot they wont invest in production so i don't see attraction in this stand alone offset deal.they will invest it as they please.so my point drop this offset clause and get rafale at cheaper price if you want it so badly other wise go for Russian or american and invest the remaining balance yourself in your country.



those are some excellent point sir. ya European's are expensive but damn capable too. 
1.We'll never buy a American fighter Too many restrictions, and will come with the sanctions when we no longer serve their interests. and hell ya never trust the Yanks 
2. Going for another Russian fighter is Risky we don't want to hatch all the eggs in a single basket, and i don't know If the Russians have any fighters that could perform like Rafale, we've air superiority fighters like Su-30mki and Migs from them, what we need is a fighter with a good striking skills, Suitable for SEAD ops that's where Rafale or ETF comes in.
3. the price today is too damn high is because of the Congress who failed to check the activities of Dassault which highjacked the Tender. and again because of the Arabs who bought in a high price we'll also have to follow it. 
4. French has to invest 50% here that still benefits us too. we get some money and more jobs are created, and we are not going to pay anything extra if DM is capable of sealing the deal for 10Billions that he's trying. 

5. its not confirmed but... there might be some ToT partially which could help us in AMCA dev along with expertise gained with LCA and FGFA.


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## Lonely Hermit

Skull and Bones said:


> We should seriously think about F-18SH at this time of need.


& then what sign CISMOA and hand over our sovereignty to uncle sam ?


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## raktaka

Vauban said:


> The Indians will of course buy the 36,because Modi needs this deal. (Face saving,you know...) @C130
> And as we found new clients for the Rafale (Qatar,Egypt) and soon a deal could be signed with the UAE for 60 Rafale,(Deal in final stages!),we are in better positions in the negociations than we were 4 years ago.
> -
> The target might have decreased from 126 to 36,but at least,the 36 will be built in France. (Compared to 18.)



That is a very foolish assumption. Modi do not need to save any face, if its expensive he will simply say its too expensive and hence India will not buy it. 

Its the French President who needs to save face back home if the deal goes south. 

Indian' stand during negotiations is nowhere related to your own strength during negotiations. India will bite only if it is convinced that it is not paying more that its fair price. That 36 will be built in france only if the deal is signed.


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## Skull and Bones

Lonely Hermit said:


> & then what sign CISMOA and hand over our sovereignty to uncle sam ?



CISMOA will not be binding, given the recent acquisitions, but they'll enforce EULA agreement.


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## Lonely Hermit

wanglaokan said:


> Although I'm a Chinese, I am so worried for IAF. I don't feel happy about the delay cause I don't feel hostile toward India. Parika shall understand the notion of TIME! Damn it. At least he shall address the bandwidth of all those patriotic Indian members in PDF.
> 
> Although I'm a Chinese, I am so worried for IAF. I don't feel happy about the delay cause I don't feel hostile toward India. Parika shall understand the notion of TIME! Damn it. At least he shall address the bandwidth of all those patriotic Indian members in PDF.


I am really touched by your generosity


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## somebozo

raktaka said:


> That is a very foolish assumption. Modi do not need to save any face, if its expensive he will simply say its too expensive and hence India will not buy it.
> 
> Its the French President who needs to save face back home if the deal goes south.
> 
> Indian' stand during negotiations is nowhere related to your own strength during negotiations. India will bite only if it is convinced that it is not paying more that its fair price. That 36 will be built in france only if the deal is signed.



India the mighty super power which controls the currents of global politics and like a magician can bend and twist anything..this false assumptions and over confidence only live in the minds of typical Indians..in reality..Rafael can find new and even conflicting customers which may end up closing the Indian prospects of Rafael.

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## raktaka

Skull and Bones said:


> CISMOA will not be binding, given the recent acquisitions, but they'll enforce EULA agreement.



What do you mean CISMOA is not binding ? Any agreement if signed is Binding.



somebozo said:


> India the mighty super power which controls the currents of global politics and like a magician can bend and twist anything..this false assumptions and over confidence only live in the minds of typical Indians..in reality..Rafael can find new and even conflicting customers which may end up closing the Indian prospects of Rafael.



LOL... Why would India care if Rafale can find new customers ? That will be a concern only IF and when India buys the Rafale.


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## Blue Marlin

Vauban said:


> Exporting our products : YES.
> 
> ToT : Not very keen on that. Is that worth it to transfer our skills,technologies,knowledge etc. that it took us decades and billions of € to develop ? Just for few Bn of € ?
> Because at the end,when Indians will know to make everything,will they still buy from us ?
> Their products could be in the future a threat to our exports.
> 
> @wanglaokan @Shabi1 @Hell hound @somebozo @slapshot @C130 @Dungeness
> 
> @Taygibay


bingo!!! no country is stupid enough to sell tech to another country who would develop it further and compete with the original vendor. Dassault would be signing its own death warrant. i think something along the lines of Indonesia where the seller would simply transfer some tech to the country with little investment. we (the typhoon consortium) did this. we would supply them kits to build the planes and give them the ability to build cft's which they will be the only vendor. and give the the proper tooling, training and invest in the production of the planes and thats it. done



C130 said:


> the Rafale has some awesome tech in it and the Rafale is in my top 3 of favorite jets, but this whole deal has just been a disaster.
> 
> 
> but I can see how France would be hesitant to give full ToT.


just out of curiosity whats second and third?

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## raktaka

Blue Marlin said:


> bingo!!! no country is stupid enough to sell tech to another country who would develop it further and compete with the original vendor. Dassault would be signing its own death warrant. i think something along the lines of Indonesia where the seller would simply transfer some tech to the country with little investment. we (the typhoon consortium) did this. we would supply them kits to build the planes and give them the ability to build cft's which they will be the only vendor. and give the the proper tooling, training and invest in the production of the planes and thats it. done



But countries and company are desperate enough to sell tech and buy tech. That is why that market exist, because both buyers and seller live in it. 

Everything dies. Idea is to prolong life and delay death. Same being true for Dassault.


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## Blue Marlin

raktaka said:


> But countries and company are desperate enough to sell tech and buy tech. That is why that market exist, because both buyers and seller live in it.
> 
> Everything dies. Idea is to prolong life and delay death. Same being true for Dassault.


it depends on the definition of "tech" if its something like engine intake design and lading gear designs and arrangements then yes thats for sale(additional tech for the aid of lca). but the core parts of the jets are not for sale. besides i thought the whole point is to make in india right. i don't mind that, but what i would mind is letting go of sensitive tech. heck the turks and the Koreans are a good example. they both built their own f16's but the important stuff comes from the usa. even with the engines the sensitive compressor and combustion chamber for the engines are built in the usa and then shipped to Korea who would build the case and he initial combustion stages and the main fan and put it all together.

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## mirage

b


ConcealCarry said:


> As the wise men say, never bite more than you can swallow, either you choke to death or be embarrassed to throw up.
> A decade long claims of unlimited resources and bloated statements of "india can buy anything, anytime, in any quantity"...LOL and these shameless guys would come in hordes to still claim 36 is the initial order with 150 more to follow......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hahaha as they say, when you spit facing up, you get to lick it back.......


but buying and begging are different as negotiations are only possible when people buy things but beg / and why are you so anxious / ? wait till the game is over , this patriotic government just came into picture .


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## raktaka

Blue Marlin said:


> it depends on the definition of "tech" if its something like engine intake design and lading gear designs and arrangements then yes thats for sale(additional tech for the aid of lca). but the core parts of the jets are not for sale. besides i thought the whole point is to make in india right. i don't mind that, but what i would mind is letting go of sensitive tech. heck the turks and the Koreans are a good example. they both built their own f16's but the important stuff comes from the usa. even with the engines the sensitive compressor and combustion chamber for the engines are built in the usa and then shipped to Korea who would build the case and he initial combustion stages and the main fan and put it all together.



If India has a plant that can build hardened blades then putting them together and making an engine is not that tough. The idea is to set up that factor in India under ToT and offset. 

Currently HAL India already has a plant that makes single crystal blade but it has strict licensing control. India is looking to diversify and improve the supply chain. 

India already has the core engine design Kabini which has been certified. More funding will ensure its evolution. Finally India has far more leverage than Korea or Turkey. So you win some and you lose some.


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## cerberus

BS Piece of Yellow Journalist Shit of Ajay Shukla and Fanboys going Berserk over it this guy Write lot Sensational Stuff 

Here is Actual Stuff 

Rafale deal stuck on price: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar - The Economic Times

Price was the only issue left to negotiate now in the Rafale fighter jet deal with France, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said on Thursday. The minister, in an interview said: "Price is the problem which has to be resolved. We have resolved all other issues.

Asked about the MoU signed during French President Francois Hollande's visit to India, the Defence Minister said: "It is valid and meaningful to extent that procedure has been laid. "If I am buying something, I cannot hurry on the price, agreement also does not limit the time frame," he said.

Asked about a time frame, the Minister said it may take a "few months", but quickly added that he did not want to put a "restriction on the timeline". "Price is the only issue left now," he said, adding that an agreement on 50 per cent offsets has been reached. 

India signed an inter-governmental pact with France to buy 36 Rafale fighters but the price negotiations are still on. France is said to have quoted around $9 billion for the 36 jets.

The deal would includes two types of missiles and bombs, training of pilots and base facilities for the planes. 


I think two types of Missiles are Both MICA & Meteor


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## The Eagle

So no Rafale, it means. India shouldn't have bluffed it since start or wait.... it was a game only to corner Pakistan theoretically. What about all those claims of Indian members at PDF and wasted bandwidth. Moreover, i think it is just a break into talks but soon will be finalized except TOT.


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## Taygibay

- 11B € cannot be the price of 36 Rafales even with weapons and support. -
- The only way, 11B € makes sense is if huge extras are included. -
- Does the combo 50% offsets / XX% availability guarantee cut it? -​
Review the above, understand why it's true and that question becomes central.
The Indian media and Defenceoctor Manohar & Minister Parrikar have us confused.
Reality is often simpler than what us humans make it to be. Internal politics for example ...

At this point, I'll slack commenting in this thread except to correct factual errors.
Too many news pieces drown the truth as easily as too few make one thirsty for it.

Good chat all, Tay.

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## Blue Marlin

raktaka said:


> If India has a plant that can build hardened blades then putting them together and making an engine is not that tough. The idea is to set up that factor in India under ToT and offset.
> 
> Currently HAL India already has a plant that makes single crystal blade but it has strict licensing control. India is looking to diversify and improve the supply chain.
> 
> India already has the core engine design Kabini which has been certified. More funding will ensure its evolution. Finally India has far more leverage than Korea or Turkey. So you win some and you lose some.


its not just making blades hardened but to with stand the heat and the centrifugal forces on the blades. as for developing proper engines your at least 10 years away, heck even china is having trouble developing an engine. lets not go of topic here i just gave you an example.

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## raktaka

Blue Marlin said:


> its not just making blades hardened but to with stand the heat and the centrifugal forces on the blades. as for developing proper engines your at least 10 years away, heck even china is having trouble developing an engine. lets not go of topic here i just gave you an example.



LOL...the hardening of the blade is to withstand the shock and the heat. That is why single crystal blades are used. 

HAL already makes such blades. What part of that do you not understand ? Only HAL do not have the license or a capacity to supply them to Kaveri engine. 

China never had the manufacturing license or Tech from Russia unlike India. So its a pointless comparison.


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## cerberus

The Eagle said:


> So no Rafale, it means. India shouldn't have bluffed it since start or wait.... it was a game only to corner Pakistan theoretically. What about all those claims of Indian members at PDF and wasted bandwidth. Moreover, i think it is just a break into talks but soon will be finalized except TOT.



Where Did you Got that Impression Yes it will Take Time But After IGA the Deal is Going For Sure 
Its Part Of Negotiation 

here What DM MP Actually Said 

Price was the only issue left to negotiate now in the Rafale fighter jet deal with France, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said on Thursday. The minister, in an interview said: "Price is the problem which has to be resolved. We have resolved all other issues.

Asked about the MoU signed during French President Francois Hollande's visit to India, the Defence Minister said: "It is valid and meaningful to extent that procedure has been laid. "If I am buying something, I cannot hurry on the price, agreement also does not limit the time frame," he said.

Asked about a time frame, the Minister said it may take a "few months", but quickly added that he did not want to put a "restriction on the timeline". "Price is the only issue left now," he said, adding that an agreement on 50 per cent offsets has been reached

Rafale fighter jet deal stuck because price is a problem, says Manohar Parrikar - Firstpost


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## Blue Marlin

raktaka said:


> LOL...the hardening of the blade is to withstand the shock and the heat. That is why single crystal blades are used.
> 
> HAL already makes such blades. What part of that do you not understand ? Only HAL do not have the license or a capacity to supply them to Kaveri engine.
> 
> China never had the manufacturing license or Tech from Russia unlike India. So its a pointless comparison.


newer ge blades dont use crystal blades as the crystallization process come with flaws and a large amount of the blades are rejects. also if hal is able to builds such blades does not mean they can built an entire engine. you went for the m88 core and that did not work well.

i shall just say good luck and leave it there.


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## PWFI

_'The mother of all deal_' ' '_RAFALE THIS RAFALE THAT' 'We have lots of money we can buy anything' _

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## The Eagle

cerberus said:


> Where Did you Got that Impression Yes it will Take Time But After IGA the Deal is Going For Sure
> Its Part Of Negotiation
> 
> here What DM MP Actually Said
> 
> Price was the only issue left to negotiate now in the Rafale fighter jet deal with France, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said on Thursday. The minister, in an interview said: "Price is the problem which has to be resolved. We have resolved all other issues.
> 
> Asked about the MoU signed during French President Francois Hollande's visit to India, the Defence Minister said: "It is valid and meaningful to extent that procedure has been laid. "If I am buying something, I cannot hurry on the price, agreement also does not limit the time frame," he said.
> 
> Asked about a time frame, the Minister said it may take a "few months", but quickly added that he did not want to put a "restriction on the timeline". "Price is the only issue left now," he said, adding that an agreement on 50 per cent offsets has been reached
> 
> Rafale fighter jet deal stuck because price is a problem, says Manohar Parrikar - Firstpost



Yes, there are always sudden issues that cause the end.


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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> I feel we need good defense reporters.. URGENTLY



We'll get all 200 Rafales before we get good defence reporters. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> OK folks,
> I am not giving you here a rant but i was wondering few things here.. Post the news of multiple (1 or 2) new lines under MII, i was trying to understand how serious is perhaps one particular bid and scope of so called help in our AMCA program..
> 
> After googling and reading few stuffs over last 2 days (and yes i posted limited during the same time here .. apologies could not contribute much), i am pasting few things here..
> 
> The company and line in question is Boeing and F18s
> 
> *Here is the first thing*, a scan of an old article from Hindu dated 03-04-08
> 
> View attachment 294510
> 
> 
> This article talks about Boeing Consulting role talks with ADA for our beloved LCA program
> 
> What i understand is this bid of consultancy role was blocked by US in the same year bcz in 2009 ADA approached Lockheed Martin for a similar consulting role. What i understand is there is a 90 day window cited for getting clearance from US government by Boeing where it was stalled.
> *
> Now the second thing*
> Back then in September 2009, our Ajai Shukla only reported that USA government blocked LM's help for LCA
> 
> _The US government is, for the second time, squeezing American aerospace giant Lockheed Martin out of an important contract related to India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).
> 
> Business Standard learns that Lockheed Martin, selected in June as a consultant for developing the Naval version of the Tejas, was given 90 days to obtain the clearances it needed from the US government. But now, with time running out, Washington has sent Lockheed Martin a list of questions about what assistance the company will provide.
> 
> Lockheed Martin’s current situation replicates that of Boeing, which was front-runner for the air force Tejas consultancy. But *earlier this year, after the US government failed to grant Boeing a clearance *(called Technical Assistance Agreement) in time, the defence ministry awarded EADS the contract. The European consortium obtained the sanctions in time and is now working with ADA._
> US puts Lockheed off Tejas flight path | Business Standard News
> 
> *So my above point of 90 day clearance not granted is validated*
> 
> *My third point *
> Back in 2011, based on Wikileaks leaking a confidential cable by Timothy Roemer, ambassador to India, USA folks are not keen with any tie up with HAL. This was in context with MMRCA Bid.
> 
> _The Financial Times, in a report on Friday, cited US ambassador to India Timothy Roemer as saying in a confidential cable last year that was leaked by WikiLeaks: “The potential for HAL to successfully partner with US firms on a truly advanced aircraft remains untested and suspect.”_
> HAL dismisses concerns over its ability - Livemint
> 
> Effectively what i am trying to point out is even today after about 5 years of passage the view of the house among US MIC has not changed much. So, its still points to no tie up with DPSU.. Verbally all talk about a healthy relationship with HAL (Both Boeing, LM etc) but in reality their actions are far from this.. Its a similar approach with ADA whom they gave cold shoulder under pressure from US government.
> 
> *My fourth point* is the proof about what Boeing stipulated under the guidance of US government
> _
> Boeing has stipulated that Tejas should not be sold to another country without U.S. permission
> ADA officials find this unacceptable since no U.S.-made equipment is to be fitted on the Tejas
> 
> The Bush administration seems to be dragging its feet over giving the go-ahead to Boeing providing consultancy for the light combat aircraft, Tejas, programme.
> 
> The consultancy, offered to the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is designing and developing the Tejas), will run for 42 months.
> 
> It envisages Boeing, which has sufficient experience on flight test programmes like its F-18 Hornet, providing the ADA with crucial inputs on flight tests that would help in avoiding unnecessary flights, saving costs and shortening of the design and development phases.
> 
> Said an official: “We can’t understand why the U.S. government is making a big thing out of something like a consultancy programme in flight testing. It is strange that it is being linked to the possible sale of the aircraft [Tejas]. This does not augur well for the seriousness of American weapons/defence corporation with India.”
> Boeing delaying consultancy for Tejas programme - NATIONAL - The Hindu
> _
> So you see the trend here.. Whatever is being developed must not threaten what exists in their product portfolio of US MICs
> 
> 
> So the conclusion part
> 
> What benefit Boeing will bring for AMCA project?
> Will it not repeat the "consulting" history seen like above?
> Is AMCA not a direct threat to both its F18 future and later an F35 future prospects in India
> Is AMCA and LCA not killing the market prospects for F16s/F18s and F35 in Indian context?
> Its clear Boeing wont have a tie up with DPSU and Beoing wont like a big conglomerate like TATA too owing to "sensitive hi end technology" being used in "F18s" - a line often used in US congress wordings,, so for a more control it would always wish to go solo..
> So how will GOI/MOD have any control?
> To me it still looks just words to sugar coat their intent of denying India anything which constitutes meaningful technology transfer or any success of AMCA program
> 
> @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @anant_s @randomradio @Dash @raktaka @Armani @Masterhunter @surya kiran @Ankit Kumar @others
> 
> Does all this makes you feel anything? The history shows something which we have already experienced.. should we learn from history or again bet on US/Boeing and F18 prospects under MII + associated "help" into AMCA program
> 
> I have a similar view about SAAB also..
> 
> Gentlemen, your thoughts on this could help me understand a bit better .. i do have an opinion atm but would like more rational backing on this.. So a good discussion is in order about the true intentions here....
> _
> Hope I am not out of line from the context of this thread .. just wished to plainly understand the real intentions and actual feasible aspect of this so called offer.._



American MICs are restricted by their govts. They are not serious partners for us. We will buy from them what we can't from others, until we can replace that with something else.

But when it comes to Indian programs, they have no control over us. The AMCA will use GE for Indian planes, that doesn't mean a different engine cannot be sourced for exports, like the EJ230 family or the new RD-33. ADA will try its best to keep the AMCA ITAR free, except the engine of course.

Saab has no restrictions. When DRDO approached them, they wanted a 51% stake in the LCA program which DRDO rejected. Eventually EADS was given the contract. They didn't ask anything, they have been very helpful ever since.



Abingdonboy said:


> THIS is why I don't agree with @randomradio that some in the media know the "true cost/jet requirement" because the range in quoted prices is simply too large to account for small errors of measure.



This was what I was told by CNL.

I don't think known anti-Dassault lobbyists were given any information for obvious reasons.

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## Vergennes

PWFI said:


> _'The mother of all deal_' ' '_RAFALE THIS RAFALE THAT' 'We have lots of money we can buy anything' _



@Blue Marlin This saga is turning into an utter joke,either Indians buy it or not,that's simple. 
In some months of negociations we sold 48 jets to two countries. (Option for 12 more = Qatar)
-
We are fast approaching the "anniversary" of the announcement to buy 36 jets and still nothing.... 
We expected the deal to be signed soon after Modi's visit = Nothing. 
We expected the deal to be signed before the end of 2015 = Nothing. 
We had our last hope to see this deal signed during India's republic day = Nothing. 

You must be very patient with India seriously....

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## Dr Gupta

Saab NG I told you


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## Taygibay

LOL Factual error spotted, that was quick!

No s at MIC, random --»



randomradio said:


> American MICs



MIC is the acronym for Military Industrial Complex coined by President Eisenhower
who knew both sides very well.
It represent the link between armed forces and industry that Congress maintains strong
with cash injections as a trainer with steroids for an athlete.
The historic role of the armed forces and the 14th Amendment both lead to high spending
and since that as well as the resulting might is needed to keep America at Rome's level
of economic domination, the circle is impossible to break less you starve the capitalistic
nature of the nation.

MIC is thus, Pentagon+Armament Industry+Congress.
With only one of each term, there cannot be many MICs!

Nothing forbids talking of a Pakistani or Indian or French MIC of course!
Then an _S_ can be allowed.

Great day, Tay.

P.S. If you remove both plurals in that sentence ( govtS? ) it will be alright.

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## randomradio

Vauban said:


> Exporting our products : YES.
> 
> ToT : Not very keen on that. Is that worth it to transfer our skills,technologies,knowledge etc. that it took us decades and billions of € to develop ? Just for few Bn of € ?
> Because at the end,when Indians will know to make everything,will they still buy from us ?
> Their products could be in the future a threat to our exports.
> 
> @wanglaokan @Shabi1 @Hell hound @somebozo @slapshot @C130 @Dungeness
> 
> @Taygibay



The deal for 36 will open up a Make in India program for the Rafale. We will buy as many or more than ADLA/MN combined. Would that be fair?


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## Dr Gupta

Vauban said:


> @Blue Marlin This saga is turning into an utter joke,either Indians buy it or not,that's simple.
> In some months of negociations we sold 48 jets to two countries. (Option for 12 more = Qatar)
> -
> We are fast approaching the "anniversary" of the announcement to buy 36 jets and still nothing....
> We expected the deal to be signed soon after Modi's visit = Nothing.
> We expected the deal to be signed before the end of 2015 = Nothing.
> We had our last hope to see this deal signed during India's republic day = Nothing.
> 
> You must be very patient with India seriously....




That is not how negotiations work in the business world, the aim of the buyer is to obtain the best price and the seller to achieve the highest profit. There is a deficit which needs to be resolved.


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## randomradio

Vauban said:


> @Blue Marlin This saga is turning into an utter joke,either Indians buy it or not,that's simple.
> In some months of negociations we sold 48 jets to two countries. (Option for 12 more = Qatar)
> -
> We are fast approaching the "anniversary" of the announcement to buy 36 jets and still nothing....
> We expected the deal to be signed soon after Modi's visit = Nothing.
> We expected the deal to be signed before the end of 2015 = Nothing.
> We had our last hope to see this deal signed during India's republic day = Nothing.
> 
> You must be very patient with India seriously....



Bro each time the deal specifics have changed.

Earlier IAF wanted MMRCA configuration, this was expected to be signed in the IGA by September. Then they added 50% offsets and Make in India, so negotiations took more time. Then they changed the configuration for more Indian specific equipment and new engine. So all of these have contributed to delays.

You can't compare the Qatar and Egypt deal because they haven't opted for a major change in specification from the French version and neither do they plan on building 200+ of them in their own country.

Don't forget that IN is yet to complete evaluation of Rafales. IN's decision can add 50-150 Rafales, depending on their own priorities. So final Make in India numbers are yet to be finalized. This can also contribute to delays.

The MMRCA deal was canceled after it was completed.


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## Blue Marlin

Vauban said:


> @Blue Marlin This saga is turning into an utter joke,either Indians buy it or not,that's simple.
> In some months of negociations we sold 48 jets to two countries. (Option for 12 more = Qatar)
> -
> We are fast approaching the "anniversary" of the announcement to buy 36 jets and still nothing....
> We expected the deal to be signed soon after Modi's visit = Nothing.
> We expected the deal to be signed before the end of 2015 = Nothing.
> We had our last hope to see this deal signed during India's republic day = Nothing.
> 
> You must be very patient with India seriously....


im guessing they have broken you @Vauban !
let me pu it to you like this, im staring to feel happy that they chose the rafale over the typhoon. the negotiations would be twice as long after negotiating with 3 companies in 4 countries. heck 2020 would be a conservative time frame!
well acording to @Abingdonboy a deal would be concluded before 31st of march. I'm gonna try keep quiet till then after that i will be under the assumption they are not interested in the rafale no more as yes its taken way to long. in their defense they are external forces(companies) that want to break the deal so they can buy their own jets instead. heck even lockheed Martin offered to build f16's in india! thats desperate even for the world largest defense contractor. 
if they dont trust the yanks and find europe to expensive then go for the mig 35 and more mki's play it safe rather than suicidal. the tejas is quiet strange but the should just continue with it and ignore the gripen too. the way india planned it out was awful and was a disaster from the beginning. i dont think we are to interested in selling them typhoons to them. if the rafale is too big for them then the typhoon will give them a heart attack!

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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> MIC is the acronym for Military Industrial Complex coined by President Eisenhower
> who knew both sides very well.


Former general and great visionary:

_In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist._

_Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961_


In terms of what we now know of US history, his words are almost prophetic.

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## SirHatesALot

End this drama go with Russians they are better and know Indian market better than anyone.


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## Abingdonboy

@waz @Oscar @HRK sirs, can we get this thread moved to the Rafale discussions sticky?


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## Dr Gupta

You chaps need to understand how business works and why we can wait..... the aim is to get the best deal

Egypt case is very different they had a pressing need... India does not and the defence minister is absolutely right there will be no ink until there is a drop in price.

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## Hulk

I think India should seriously start looking at other options for taking care of depleting numbers. Rafale seems difficult to be done, I am losing faith.


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> @waz @Oscar @HRK sirs, can we get this thread moved to the Rafale discussions sticky?



@waz @Oscar @HRK

No, please don't, it will only add 6 pages of ranting to the sticky. It's built on an anti-Dassault lobby anyway.


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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> @waz @Oscar @HRK
> 
> No, please don't, it will only add 6 pages of ranting to the sticky.


Haha, well it may also encourage some less informed members to read back through the sticky and see the complexity of the situation. These despair "cancel the Rafale deal" threads pop up every other day so it would be better for all those getting emotional about it to see the reality and not just what the Indian media's vested interests produce or what games the DM is trying to play.

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## Dr Gupta

Hulk said:


> I think India should seriously start looking at other options for taking care of depleting numbers. Rafale seems difficult to be done, I am losing faith.




It will be done but it's a game of poker


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## Hulk

Vauban said:


> The Indians will of course buy the 36,because* Modi needs this deal*. (Face saving,you know...) @C130
> And as we found new clients for the Rafale (Qatar,Egypt) and soon a deal could be signed with the UAE for 60 Rafale,(Deal in final stages!),we are in better positions in the negociations than we were 4 years ago.
> -
> The target might have decreased from 126 to 36,but at least,the 36 will be built in France. (Compared to 18.)



You don't know Modi. A Gujarati businessmen can never have ego. No business should/can be done for face saving.

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## Dr Gupta

We are tight its just the way we are  they will reduce the price watch.....


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## cerberus

The Eagle said:


> Yes, there are always sudden issues that cause the end.



This Small Deal Very Little in Its Dynamics To Make Impact in Diplomacy Btw India And France

There Deals which are Already Going Smooth Like Scorpene Submarines And TATA -Airbus or Mahindra & Airbus 
other than That FDI in Indian Corporate Sector By French Firms.Rafale is one more Ingredient in this that's all

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## PARIKRAMA

Pls keep this thread clean...

Humble request

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## The Eagle

cerberus said:


> This Small Deal Very Little in Its Dynamics To Make Impact in Diplomacy Btw India And France
> 
> There Deals which are Already Going Smooth Like Scorpene Submarines And TATA -Airbus or Mahindra & Airbus
> other than That FDI in Indian Corporate Sector By French Firms.Rafale is one more Ingredient in this that's all



Indeed I will be watching here about the end result. These are MoD words that a little sign of stalled deal that I showed my concern about. My opinion.


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## rockstarIN

It's nicely going...New news popping up every day. F16 F16 EF ...With immense delay. Dassault will learn a lot from this deal.


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## Armani

som said:


> * MOD knows IAF has selected one of the best Aircraft from the 6



What do you mean "one of the best"? Can any other MMRCA aircraft fly THIS close to an NH90 and then maneuver? Huh?







I think not.

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## Hell hound

Armani said:


> What do you mean "one of the best"? Can any other MMRCA aircraft fly THIS close to an NH90 and then maneuver? Huh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think not.


can it defeat f 22 in bvr combat.f 18 can


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## Bheemsen

Hell hound said:


> can it defeat f 22 in bvr combat.f 18 can


Well just for your knowledge We will never be facing F22 as adversary , Period


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## Armani

Hell hound said:


> can it defeat f 22 in bvr combat.f 18 can



Can F-18 win MMRCA? Rafale can.

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## Hell hound

Bheemsen said:


> Well just for your knowledge We will never be facing F22 as adversary , Period


but you may be facing j 20 which is going to squat your su 30 like flies due to its huge rcs while f18 has low rcs due to encased weapons and have much better ew then any of the 6 mmrca jets in its growler configuration.its the only 4 gen jet that can survive 5 gen jet's attack and hurt them back.rest its your money your choice.


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## topgun047

Au revoir Rafale.Dassault you are doomed to remain a cottage aerospace industry forever.Don't worry about competition from India for India's ambitions are much more than you can digest.Keep this up and you'll go the way of Alstom one day.

One good thing that came out of MMRCA saga is that at least the IAF brass and the tender writers scored some decent sized bribes.
Let this be warning to prospective sellers,no matter how much Arup Raha bitches to the press about Rafales during negotiations, no deal will be signed if it doesn't make economic sense.India is a banana republic no more even if still corrupt.


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## Hell hound

Armani said:


> Can F-18 win MMRCA? Rafale can.


mmrca was scraped remember it was not god of evaluation that if some jet fail it then it become less lethal and useful then winner.


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## Armani

^^ I was kinda hoping the jingos would stay off the thread but Noooo.....they are PERSISTENT.

At one hand, we have indigenous jingos who are buthurt that Rafale is winning & their paid masters' planes are loosing (EF, US jets).

At the other hand, we have jingos from across the border who're buthurt about basically anything related to India - MMRCA being one of the subjects.

Only one event can answer everything : final contract signature. But it is damn well illusive.

Leave the low-IQ individuals alone. No matter what you push in their face, they will choose to live in their perpetual delusions. These are the same guys who claim F-35 will drop anything in the sky for the next 40 years.

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## Hell hound

Armani said:


> ^^ I was kinda hoping the jingos would stay off the thread but Noooo.....they are PERSISTENT.
> 
> At one hand, we have indigenous jingos who are buthurt that Rafale is winning & their paid masters' planes are loosing (EF, US jets).
> 
> At the other hand, we have jingos from across the border who're buthurt about basically anything related to India - MMRCA being one of the subjects.
> 
> Only one event can answer everything : final contract signature. But it is damn well illusive.
> 
> Leave the low-IQ individuals alone. No matter what you push in their face, they will choose to live in their perpetual delusions. These are the same guys who claim F-35 will drop anything in the sky for the next 40 years.


and here i was thinking our neighbors would have developed the capability to properly debate without throwing personal insults but no some guys just can't change.my sole intention here was to engage in constructive debate with our neighbors but after your reply what i would like to say to you is that you can take your mmrca or rafale up your *** for all i care and never reply to me until you learn how to talk without personal attacks.


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## Vergennes

topgun047 said:


> Au revoir Rafale.Dassault you are doomed to remain a cottage aerospace industry forever.Don't worry about competition from India for India's ambitions are much more than you can digest.Keep this up and you'll go the way of Alstom one day.
> 
> One good thing that came out of MMRCA saga is that at least the IAF brass and the tender writers scored some decent sized bribes.
> Let this be warning to prospective sellers,no matter how much Arup Raha bitches to the press about Rafales during negotiations, no deal will be signed if it doesn't make economic sense.India is a banana republic no more even if still corrupt.



The day the indian aerospace industry would have the *same current* technologies,skills,knowledge of Dassault,then we could talk about it.

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## topgun047

Vauban said:


> The day the indian aerospace industry would have the *same current* technologies,skills,knowledge of Dassault,then we could talk about it.


Ok sir.


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## Bheemsen

Hell hound said:


> but you may be facing j 20 which is going to squat your su 30 like flies due to its huge rcs while f18 has low rcs due to encased weapons and have much better ew then any of the 6 mmrca jets in its growler configuration.its the only 4 gen jet that can survive 5 gen jet's attack and hurt them back.rest its your money your choice.


Su30 will be modernized into Super su 30 and by time j20 is combat ready we will have FGFA flying in Indian colors.



Vauban said:


> The day the indian aerospace industry would have the *same current* technologies,skills,knowledge of Dassault,then we could talk about it.


You french sir first worry about civil war , ISIS and refugee crisis is at your door step knocking hard


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## Vergennes

Bheemsen said:


> You french sir first worry about civil war , ISIS and refugee crisis is at your door step knocking hard



The point of this comment ?

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## Bheemsen

Vauban said:


> The point of this comment ?


Tend to your economy , you need all the money to put house in order stop the hard bargain and cooperate with India in rafale procurement. We can simply say no to this deal and look elsewhere F18 sh is standing with open arms.


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## Hell hound

Vauban said:


> The point of this comment ?


the point here is to personally insult you and your country some poster here tend to do that why they have nothing constrictive to say and have to reply for the sake of replying.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

Hell hound said:


> but you may be facing j 20 which is going to squat your su 30 like flies due to its huge rcs while f18 has low rcs due to encased weapons and have much better ew then any of the 6 mmrca jets in its growler configuration.its the only 4 gen jet that can survive 5 gen jet's attack and hurt them back.rest its your money your choice.


Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 135
A sparrow! he is saying RCS Rafale = RCS F-22.

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## Piper

Indians should do a value analysis on how much utility Rafale offers vis-a-vis alternatives like Vipers or hornets given a baseline cost. For eg say you have a budget of 10 Billion $ - what would you rather buy? 36 Rafales or 80+ F/18 or 126 F-16 Block 60.

It's a poor analogy but for the uninitiated consider any luxury auto-mobile: While a Bentley may offer more features than say a Lexus, the value proposition of Lexus is much higher. Sheikhs will go for a Gold Plated Bentley or Royce cause it carries the snob value but a country like India has to be judicious in choice considering the enormity of the role the jets are being bought in to fill up.

Forgive me for the simplistic analysis as value proposition is just one of the factors and there are other factors in play too of which I am ignorant like

1. Logistic Commonality
2. Level of tech transfer
3. Bundling with other sensitive projects
4. Strategic and Political Concerns
5. Vested interests, corruption and Lobbying
6. Opportunity cost of time already invested
7. Maintenance, availability, support and training. 

Based on merit alone Rafale is one of the finest jets in it's generation and I have great respect for the French ingenuity which enabled them to deliver a fighter jet equivalent of Sistine Madonna.

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## randomradio

Piper said:


> Indians should do a value analysis on how much utility Rafale offers vis-a-vis alternatives like Vipers or hornets given a baseline cost. For eg say you have a budget of 10 Billion $ - what would you rather buy? 36 Rafales or 80+ F/18 or 126 F-16 Block 60.



Those SHs are expensive too. The Rafale's $8B cost includes up to $2B as cost of IAF specific customization.

To top that, the Rafale comes with high level sensor fusion that the SH doesn't. And the Rafale's RCS is the same as the F-22's.

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## Hell hound

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 135
> A sparrow! he is saying RCS Rafale = RCS F-22.


he is talking about frontal RCS of rafale and sir to a common man like me how don't have access to classified information this still seems like a little far fetched claim that a fifth gen jet which was designed from the start to have extremely low rcs has same frontal rcs as that of a 4.5gen but then again i don't have means to verify this claim nor can i prove it wrong.


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## Piper

randomradio said:


> Those SHs are expensive too. The Rafale's $8B cost includes up to $2B as cost of IAF specific customization.
> 
> To top that, the Rafale comes with high level sensor fusion that the SH doesn't. And the Rafale's RCS is the same as the F-22's.



I am not an airwoman so will take your statements at face value and as I stated in my prior post Rafale may have few extra goodies but is it worth the price being charged?

Anyway I will restrict myself from posting further as at this point it's all smoke and mirrors and hardly any facts to reach informed conclusions with.

Thanks for your reply.


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## PARIKRAMA

IMHO the thread turned a bit sombre in last few pages with I guess the merged thread and lots of aggressive comments.. Let's not accuse countries here or point fingers..

TBH I still recall the triad cluster in the original Saab proprietary image..






As you see the triad cluster is made up of Rafale at top, a little less capability and little less LCC cost for EF and little less capability and higher LCC cost for F18

The 16s is almost reaching 60% of Rafale capability at almost 70-75% of LCC cost
Of course it pegs in favour of Gripen as its their research of a single engine fighter

But interesting to me is based on this the 16s are outright ruled out bcz Gripen NG is a superior product in comparison to 16s

As far as cost saving of 18s is concerned whatever is saved upfront I believe the same we will end up spending over LCC

So interestingly 18s are not the real replacement or best second option for India as its catching your ear clockwise or anticlockwise situation..

Nor 16s provide any potential better capability vs LCC benefit over Gripen.. This category is best reserved for LCA as I have always stated and will continue to say..

Unfortunately most posters miss these small snippets and arrive at hasty conclusions..

Let's wait a bit more to see how everything plays out..

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## Piper

PARIKRAMA said:


> IMHO the thread turned a bit sombre in last few pages with I guess the merged thread and lots of aggressive comments.. Let's not accuse countries here or point fingers..
> 
> TBH I still recall the triad cluster in the original Saab proprietary image..
> View attachment 294623
> 
> 
> As you see the triad cluster is made up of Rafale at top, a little less capability and little less LCC cost for EF and little less capability and higher LCC cost for F18
> 
> The 16s is almost reaching 60% of Rafale capability at almost 70-75% of LCC cost
> Of course it pegs in favour of Gripen as its their research of a single engine fighter
> 
> But interesting to me is based on this the 16s are outright ruled out bcz Gripen NG is a superior product in comparison to 16s
> 
> As far as cost saving of 18s is concerned whatever is saved upfront I believe the same we will end up spending over LCC
> 
> So interestingly 18s are not the real replacement or best second option for India as its catching your ear clockwise or anticlockwise situation..
> 
> Nor 16s provide any potential better capability vs LCC benefit over Gripen.. This category is best reserved for LCA as I have always stated and will continue to say..
> 
> Unfortunately most posters miss these small snippets and arrive at hasty conclusions..
> 
> Let's wait a bit more to see how everything plays out..



I would take that chart with a pinch of salt - strike that - bucket of salt.

Chart is ridiculous as there is no basis on which you can chart operation capability on Y Axis. Operational capability is not one factor but 100s of individual factors which are neither additive nor subtractive while LCC is. Any way without a detailed explanation on how that chart was arrived at let alone the veracity of that information I will take it as an infantile attempt by SAAB to pitch their product.

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## randomradio

Piper said:


> I am not an airwoman so will take your statements at face value



Neither am I. So we are on the same level here.



> and as I stated in my prior post Rafale may have few extra goodies but is it worth the price being charged?



Yes. Rafale is not just a 4th gen fighter. Even though it has not received any stealth shaping, RCS changes can be accomplished through active cancellation.



> Anyway I will restrict myself from posting further as at this point it's all smoke and mirrors and hardly any facts to reach informed conclusions with.
> 
> Thanks for your reply.



I don't question your position on this. I was skeptical about a lot of Rafale's capabilities until I met Picdel.

You know how many people on forums and other places say that some topics are well below their pay grade? Well, there is a guy here called @Picdelamirand-oil who is well above that pay grade. His knowledge rivals NATO generals, most likely more since he was in the tech field. He has supervised nuclear fusion programs, a lot of weapons platforms for the French Navy and also supervised the navy's nukes. He also overwatched the ASMP program. So he is right up there on the top. Maybe you can direct questions at him...

Picdel has confirmed a lot of information about active cancellation on the Rafale. It means the stealth on the Rafale is far superior to the one on the F-22 and F-35. Even @gambit can confirm that if you want.



PARIKRAMA said:


> TBH I still recall the triad cluster in the original Saab proprietary image..
> View attachment 294623



Only the ones in grey are correct. The ones in red are merely based on both informed and uninformed speculation. Don't put too much weightage on that graph.

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## PARIKRAMA

Piper said:


> I would take that chart with a pinch of salt - strike that - bucket of salt.
> 
> Chart is ridiculous as there is no basis on which you can chart operation capability on Y Axis. Operational capability is not one factor but 100s of individual factors which are neither additive nor subtractive while LCC is. Any way without a detailed explanation on how that chart was arrived at let alone the veracity of that information I will take it as an infantile attempt by SAAB to pitch their product.



True and that holds true for all data that's in net as most are either leaks or by defense analysts or by marketing ppl favouring at least one company for which they made the research..

The point is whichever way we say it, the MMRCA rejects includes both 16s and 18s./so anyway we going for any one them or both of them is saying the whole technical evaluation point is just wrong and IAF goofed up the evaluation.. Or we have to state that the actual performance of both teens is much superior to our test results .. This argument won't cut ice first with IAF and then secondly with our auditor CAG as they will rip apart the government on this..

This the 18s chance for a line is at best a chance for IN who likes Rafale M not 18s btw . so a 200 jet order if IN can give well and good..

For IAF to give 18 order it has to go on record with MOD and completely destroy the evaluation of MMRCA... Which is practically not possible..

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## Picdelamirand-oil

@randomradio is obliged to summarize dozens of pages of arguments with me in one post. This explains that he glorifies me a little, so that PDF forumers more readily accept the conclusions we have reached.


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## Piper

PARIKRAMA said:


> True and that holds true for all data that's in net as most are either leaks or by defense analysts or by marketing ppl favouring at least one company for which they made the research..
> 
> The point is whichever way we say it, the MMRCA rejects includes both 16s and 18s./so anyway we going for any one them or both of them is saying the whole technical evaluation point is just wrong and IAF goofed up the evaluation.. Or we have to state that the actual performance of both teens is much superior to our test results .. This argument won't cut ice first with IAF and then secondly with our auditor CAG as they will rip apart the government on this..
> 
> This the 18s chance for a line is at best a chance for IN who likes Rafale M not 18s btw . so a 200 jet order if IN can give well and good..
> 
> For IAF to give 18 order it has to go on record with MOD and completely destroy the evaluation of MMRCA... Which is practically not possible..



There has been lot of water under the bridge since MMRCA and the version on offer is I believe superior to the one presented for evaluation earlier with perceived deficiencies covered up.

Anyway it is not like Rafale is holding up it's end when it comes to price offered under MMRCA and it is fair as the parameters are quite different now due to additional modifications and advancements in electronics on offer.

Decision has to be made on Price/Capability ~Value on offer in '16-'19 rather than '08. I think your Govt is wise to this fact hence engaging in some hard ball negotiations leading to protracted delays.

One additional point is that of your air forces evaluation process ~ Can one be completely sure that the parameters were not designed to favour one aircraft or the other. Let's be clear I am not saying that Rafale is inferior but all the extras it brings in comparison to hornet - are they truly necessary when you look at the expense and urgency of acquisition?

If IAF was facing raptors then I would understand that the top shelf jet is needed but since the likely "_bandits_" would be Chinese Flankers/JF-17/F-16 upto next decade may be focus should be on increasing squadron numbers. AFAIK your own production "Tejas" is tad bit late.


Regards


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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> @randomradio is obliged to summarize dozens of pages of arguments with me in one post. This explains that he glorifies me a little, so that PDF forumers more readily accept the conclusions we have reached.



I am actually encouraging them to ask questions, especially to you, instead of simply washing it all away as lies.



Piper said:


> There has been lot of water under the bridge since MMRCA and the version on offer is I believe superior to the one presented for evaluation earlier with perceived deficiencies covered up.



Actually no MMRCA contender can match up to the Rafale's specific functions regardless of how well they are upgraded. There are a few reasons for that.

1. Rafale is the primary weapons delivery platform for the French. So they have put all of their knowledge into it. They don't have an alternative aircraft planned yet.

2. Due to the French policy of not accepting help from others during security problems, especially the US, they have geared their MIC towards being independent in all technologies. That's why they did not wait for the US and UK to conduct SEAD operations before they started their own operations in Libya. The French have only recently joined NATO.

3. The French have put so much money into the Rafale since the beginning that only the F-35 program can match up to it in terms of technologies in the West. The Rafale's electronics suite, particularly Spectra, has been under development since the early 90s and has consumed billions in funding. If Boeing is expected to replicate the capabilities of the Rafale, they will need billions of dollars and many years of research to match up. The same for any of the other contenders.

4. Only the Rafale is capable of nuclear strike. This has been a major deciding factor for the Make in India program.

5. Rafale can launch low earth satellites. A bonus feature.

As for the SH in particular, the SH version may have been upgraded since MMRCA, but nothing of that is really operationally flying as of now. The USN version is obsolete even by MMRCA standards, let alone the higher standards IAF is looking for today. The upgraded Block 3 version of the SH only matches older versions of Rafale, not the upcoming F3R version. And the SH has woefully inadequate performance even if Boeing introduces a 9G capable aircraft. The older versions of Rafale can easily manage 11G and the newer versions will be getting a new uprated engine of 8.3 tons thrust. The Rafale carries superior weapons. The SH is not nuclear capable either. So there really is no question of comparing the SH's "slightly lower price" versus the Rafale's next gen capabilities.

Anyway, there is some misconception about price. The SH's contract price to the RAAF was $6B in total for 24 jets.
Australia's new Super Hornet warplane unveiled


> Australia's first new Super Hornet to be acquired under a* $US6 billion ($A7.6 billion) deal* has been unveiled in a glitzy ceremony held in a cavernous aircraft hangar at the Boeing factory in St Louis, USA.



That comes to $250M a unit. And this is for the basic USN version and not even the MMRCA version offered to the IAF. And this version doesn't include the extra cost for modifying 12 of them to the Growler version, which by the way is obsolete compared to Rafale. Not to mention the price is almost a decade old now.

Compared to that, the version of Rafale offered to the IAF is a generation ahead, is highly customized, and is expected to cost less than $250M.
Euro 2.5B unit costs for 36 jets
Euro 2B in customization
Euro 1.4B in basing, for 1 base
Euro 1B for 10 years spares
Euro 1B for weapons
Total = Euro 7.9B or Euro 220M/jet = $245M/jet

The Rafale is actually cheaper than the regular Super Hornet, forget a customized version.

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## C130

wanglaokan said:


> To be honest, 10 billions for only 36 units is crazy. India shall stick with MKI, and continue to churn out Tejas. I would rather induct F16 assembly lines instead of going Rafale. When a fighter is expensive like that, it's not operational capable anymore. It's just expensive showcase.
> 
> The good news is that both China and Pakistan are not malign neighbors so that Indians could take their time.


Su-30MKI is a fine bird, but it has low availability rate (at this moment) and is expensive to fly and maintain

this is one of the primary reasons why India wanted a Western fighter and not another Russia bird like the Mig 35


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## randomradio




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## 帅的一匹

C130 said:


> Su-30MKI is a fine bird, but it has low availability rate (at this moment) and is expensive to fly and maintain
> 
> this is one of the primary reasons why India wanted a Western fighter and not another Russia bird like the Mig 35


Don't be kidding me. Russian sell SU35 fighter tagged at 80millions USD per. Don't tell me Rafale is better than Su35. No one is smarter than us when it comes to negotiation with Russia.


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## C130

wanglaokan said:


> Don't be kidding me. Russian sell SU35 fighter tagged at 80millions USD per. Don't tell me Rafale is better than Su35. No one is smarter than us when it comes to negotiation with Russia.



if this is a fact then why did India have the MMRCA competition? why did it shortlist the Mig-35? why did they pick the Rafale 

and in some regards the Rafale is better the Su-35, and it isn't a sure thing that a Su-35 would beat the Rafale in a dog fight either.

there are many factors that come into play


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## 帅的一匹

C130 said:


> if this is a fact then why did India have the MMRCA competition? why did it shortlist the Mig-35? why did they pick the Rafale
> 
> and in some regards the Rafale is better the Su-35, and it isn't a sure thing that a Su-35 would beat the Rafale in a dog fight either.
> 
> there are many factors that come into play


Yes, I agree. I just think Rafale is just too expensive, most countries cant afford it.

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## C130

wanglaokan said:


> Yes, I agree. I just think Rafale is just too expensive, most countries cant afford it.



it's a great bird, but you would need to get the deal the French Air Force is getting. you would have to buy direct from Dassault and even then hat will set you back $100 million to $120 million a plane.

at that cost you might as well just wait for the F-35 to mature.


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## randomradio

wanglaokan said:


> Don't be kidding me. Russian sell SU35 fighter tagged at 80millions USD per. Don't tell me Rafale is better than Su35. No one is smarter than us when it comes to negotiation with Russia.



Rafale's better than the Su-35 in many respects. Sortie rate, manpower requirements, maintenance requirements, costs per flight hour, technology, nuclear strike capability, future development etc are in Rafale's favour. Su-35's only big advantage is its low purchase cost.

Our Super Sukhoi upgrade will make the MKI better than the Su-35 anyway, so we don't have the need for it. FGFA will eventually replace a large number of the Su-30s, so we are already thinking ahead.

Also Russia sold the Su-35 to China at a very high price. Sukhoi recently sold the SU-35 to RuAF at $15M per aircraft. The Russians have sold the Su-35 to China at costs roughly 3 times higher than they should have.

The purpose of MMRCA was to buy a non-Russian fighter.
Video: Vayu-StratPost Air Power Roundtable II | StratPost


> to categorize aircraft by weight limitations – we had to keep the Su-30 out because otherwise the Su-30 would have come into the competition, as well. And the question would have been raised, ‘Why can’t you buy more of the Su-30s’. *Now you can’t put all your eggs in one basket – strategically, it’s unwise. -Air Marshal (retd) M Matheswaran*



Matheswaran was the one who created the MMRCA program.


> With respect to the MMRCA, the RFI was signed and sent out in November 2004 under my signature…



Sukhoi was purposely kept out of the competition by placing a 30 ton limit on the MTOW.

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## raktaka

Blue Marlin said:


> newer ge blades dont use crystal blades as the crystallization process come with flaws and a large amount of the blades are rejects. also if hal is able to builds such blades does not mean they can built an entire engine. you went for the m88 core and that did not work well.
> 
> i shall just say good luck and leave it there.



Wrong. GE 414 uses single crystal blades. 

Rolls-Royce Open New UK Aircraft Engine Blade Casting Facility

Rolls-Royce have opened an advanced blade casting facility in Rotherham which is expected to produce more than 100,000 single crystal turbine blades a year, including high pressure (HP) and intermediate pressure (IP) single crystal blades.

Finally this is the picture of HAL building single crystal blades and entire engine. Kindly do not bother to spread your ignorance.

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## gambit

Hell hound said:


> mate once carrier equipment is removed f 18 shed substantial amount of weight thus improving all of it characteristic like maneuverability,weapon and fuel carrying capability.
> EW capability on f 18 is off the charts.normally kill is not inscribed on a jets body unless it has actually shot down the plane but in this exceptional case imagine what it would have done to the f 22 that they inscribed it on the growler.
> @gambit sir your insight on this pic will be greatly appreciated regards.
> View attachment 294535
> 
> (sorry guys for posting the same pic twice but needed gambits opinion on it )


I commented on that pic before and will say the same now -- that without knowing the details of that engagement, there is no telling on how the EF-18 'shot' down the F-22.

The Growler is a formidable EW platform and any adversary will rue the day he faces the Growler. But the F-22 is in a class by itself.

What were the 'rules of engagement' (ROE) ? Was the F-22 serving as a target to test the EF-18's EW capabilities to the fullest ? Was it a single fighter vs single fighter ? Put aside the fact that it was an EW platform that wears the Raptor marking, usually it is the lead and wingman pair that goes after a target. It does not matter if the target is a lumbering bomber or an agile fighter, it is always lead and wingman. What if the enemy fighter killed one of the pair before he himself got killed ?

Who was Red and who was Blue ? Quite often, the 'bad guys' are Red and they are allowed unlimited regeneration, meaning if a Red fighter was virtually shot down, he must leave the area but is allowed to return, as a new combatant, after a few minutes. This is to stress the Blue team to its endurance limits, simulating fighting against a numerically superior foe. If the EF-18 was a Red fighter, was there a kill to loss ratio, meaning how many Red fighters virtually died before the Blue Raptor fighter was virtually shot down ?

While I will not take credit away from the Growler crew, neither will I cast any doubt on the Raptor pilot. Air combat, even simulated, is very much a blender of variables that goes round and round at that blender speed. A snapshot in time, like that image of the Growler with the Raptor marking, tells us nothing.

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## Hell hound

gambit said:


> I commented on that pic before and will say the same now -- that without knowing the details of that engagement, there is no telling on how the EF-18 'shot' down the F-22.
> 
> The Growler is a formidable EW platform and any adversary will rue the day he faces the Growler. But the F-22 is in a class by itself.
> 
> What were the 'rules of engagement' (ROE) ? Was the F-22 serving as a target to test the EF-18's EW capabilities to the fullest ? Was it a single fighter vs single fighter ? Put aside the fact that it was an EW platform that wears the Raptor marking, usually it is the lead and wingman pair that goes after a target. It does not matter if the target is a lumbering bomber or an agile fighter, it is always lead and wingman. What if the enemy fighter killed one of the pair before he himself got killed ?
> 
> Who was Red and who was Blue ? Quite often, the 'bad guys' are Red and they are allowed unlimited regeneration, meaning if a Red fighter was virtually shot down, he must leave the area but is allowed to return, as a new combatant, after a few minutes. This is to stress the Blue team to its endurance limits, simulating fighting against a numerically superior foe. If the EF-18 was a Red fighter, was there a kill to loss ratio, meaning how many Red fighters virtually died before the Blue Raptor fighter was virtually shot down ?
> 
> While I will not take credit away from the Growler crew, neither will I cast any doubt on the Raptor pilot. Air combat, even simulated, is very much a blender of variables that goes round and round at that blender speed. A snapshot in time, like that image of the Growler with the Raptor marking, tells us nothing.


sorry but i didn't knew that you have already commented on this pic before. thanks for the reply
have a nice day.

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## Blue Marlin

raktaka said:


> Wrong. GE 414 uses single crystal blades.
> 
> Rolls-Royce Open New UK Aircraft Engine Blade Casting Facility
> 
> Rolls-Royce have opened an advanced blade casting facility in Rotherham which is expected to produce more than 100,000 single crystal turbine blades a year, including high pressure (HP) and intermediate pressure (IP) single crystal blades.
> 
> Finally this is the picture of HAL building single crystal blades and entire engine. Kindly do not bother to spread your ignorance.


live in your own bubble and btw they make them near clithroe too.
and good luck with you engine development, im sure with your track record you will have an engine very soon.


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## raktaka

Blue Marlin said:


> live in your own bubble and btw they make them near clithroe too.
> and good luck with you engine development, im sure with your track record you will have an engine very soon.



LOL...what bubble ? the only bubble I see here is the cocoon of ignorance woven with the silk of prejudice inside which you live.

How about another picture of the bubble which makes single crystal blades in India ?

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## Bratva

Vauban said:


> The day the indian aerospace industry would have the *same current* technologies,skills,knowledge of Dassault,then we could talk about it.



So how much Indian credibility as a reliable buyer is taking a hit after scrapping MMRCA negotiations and now continuously dragging their feet over this negotiations as well ?


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## Blue Marlin

raktaka said:


> LOL...what bubble ? the only bubble I see here is the cocoon of ignorance woven with the silk of prejudice inside which you live.
> 
> How about another picture of the bubble which makes single crystal blades in India ?


whatever makes you sleep at night. 
no more of topic posts


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## Armani

Bratva said:


> So how much Indian credibility as a reliable buyer is taking a hit after scrapping MMRCA negotiations and now continuously dragging their feet over this negotiations as well ?



How nice...even after 'scrapping MMRCA' and taking a hit to our credibility as a reliable buyer, every single country/company that participated in MMRCA is still ready to sell their aircraft, even more advanced versions with more improvements, with even more lucrative tech-transfer or local production deals. Have you been reading the news at all?

Boeing, Lockheed, SAAB, EADS are all still ready for sale & local production. Some (like Boeing) are ready to shift the entire production line to India for the Super Hornet.

The only reason why Dassault is still negotiating, and is speaking of further sweetening the deal only makes it clear that they understand the business culture here and are trying their level-best to get a deal. The Govt. is trying the same, but their aim is to get better side-benefits to the local industry, while negotiating to reduce the price.

If anything, it only increased our reputation as a good, shrewd customer.

Any involved party can clearly see the difference between deals like these and how UAE/Egypt buy their stuff. We're not just looking to get a plane, we're looking to transfer an aviation industry.

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## Bheemsen

Hope sanity prevails in MOD and this deal is scrapped ASAP and Boeing is roped in to manufacture F18SH in India and help completing LCA/IJT project on time . DRDO HAL are incapable of delivering anything and Rafale will make us bankrupt

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## PARIKRAMA

Some news 

*Budget 2016: Rafale jet deal unlikely in current fiscal
The wait for the 36 Rafale combat aircraft is going to get longer due to budgetary constraints and the delay in concluding negotiations with French company Dassault.
*
By: Huma Siddiqui | New Delhi | February 19, 2016 12:46 AM

The wait for the 36 Rafale combat aircraft is going to get longer due to budgetary constraints and the delay in concluding negotiations with French company Dassault.

According to sources in the ministry of defence, though the negotiations with Dassault have been put on fast track, the deal is not expected to be cleared during this fiscal.

Speaking to FE on conditions of anonymity, an officer who has been part of the negotiating team, said, “The negotiations with the French company are on track. But there are several other agencies involved in this pact and it will take another few months before the negotiations are complete, which means the deal will not be done this fiscal ended March 2016.”

The sources have indicated despite PMO’s push for this deal, the cost of the combat machines which has gone up since the last negotiations and issuance of RFP in 2009, Indian side is expecting that through negotiations* it will manage to strike a deal at $ 7 bn for 36 fighter jets.*

*It is uncertain if the contract would be signed within the current fiscal even if negotiations were completed by late next month and all issues relating to technology transfer from Dassault were taken care of and papers readied before March 30.*

Apart from the lengthy process, other factors that might impact the much-awaited deal include government’s several social programmes, implementation of the 7th pay commission recommendations and the OROP arrears.

According to official sources, the negotiations have dragged on for so long due to issues related to *50% offsets requirement and transfer of technology. The French, it appears, are unwilling to transfer technology such as that of the electronically scanned AESA radar, citing lack of maturity of the Indian defence industry to absorb critical technologies*.

The final cost has come to about 2-3% more as it will be a government-to-government deal, defence minister Manohar Parrikar has expressed hope that the price of one Rafale jet will be 25% less*. The deal could cost India close to $8 billion, which includes the cost of 36 fighter jets in fly-away condition.*


“We are still in the process of deciding whether there is a need to order of all spare parts that the aircraft will need for a period of either five or ten years. And the negotiations are still on what kind of financial penalties can be imposed on Dassault Aviation Company which is making the combat plane if the performance was unsatisfactory,” the sources told FE.
Budget 2016: Rafale jet deal unlikely in current fiscal | The Financial Express
++

Comments

Signing can be done as I have said payment can be in March end or in April meaning next fiscal
This is in spite of almost $ 6 Bn being available under un-utilised funds as per various news reports in last fortnight
I had commented that Price negotiations wlll see an approximate Euro 700Mn more cut to Euro 8 Bn and finally around Eur 7.3 Bn or USD 7.89Bn and article talks about costing USD 8 Mn
Technology transfer seems to be a myth here as under DPP 2016 Its manufacturing line and credible TOT for identified projects like LCA
Perhaps this technology for AESA is more about negotiations for RBE2 AESA radar or a variant to AMCA talks
I have said before that AMCA will have many tech derived from both Rafale and FGFA. Recall also that i informed here that NSA Ajit Doval was in Paris before Prez Hollande visit to talk about many "strategic" things including such negotiations.
Interestingly the all inclusive price of the package its USD 8 Bn implies at current USD/INR of 68.728 its approximately INR 55000, again i have said its approx below 56000 Crs
If i say divide at say 45-50% Jets+Weapons. 45% all support+infra+spares+etc and 10% customization the jets are still at approx 700-750 Crs with weapons loaded
This is in line with what i have said about India wanting Jets+weapons at below Rs 800 Crs and are looking closer to Rs 700 Crs via negotiations. Thats approx Euro 93 Mn or USD 100 Mn mark which i have said all along and given a figure of Euro 3.6 Bn (jets +weapons) and negotiating more on that.
@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @anant_s @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @others

I am still saying there would be lots of paid media articles to showcase that rafale deal is costly and rafale deal is not correct and what not... Strong brainwashing my Saab, Boeing and LM as part of their marketing blitz and muscle flexing..

I said in another thread DM MP is trying to dole out carrot and stick strategy for US MIC for the F16 deal with our neighbor and trying to "bluff" his way through a PR exercise.

If this article is true and as with source based news i gave before this may be point to the true valuation of Rafale Deal...

We are getting a good deal from France and anything below USD 100 or Euro 93 Mn for jets+weapons is a steal.. I hope the country sees the truth if whatever i have said and report like this and Dinakar Peri from Hindu also has said the same thing and we stop chasing other aircrafts and make most of what we have in front of us..

I am waiting for IN confirmation of Rafale M requirements.. Judging from the source based talks, IN has indicated 4 tranches of purchase so far.. Each tranch is approximated around 55-60 Jets totalling approx 200+ over next 2 decades.
Oh a side news, IN wants minimum two bigger carriers for approx 55-60 jets and both they want before completion of 2027-2042 naval modernization plan timeline ending. So 110+ requirements are coming from carriers needs alone and rest from enhanced operations which IN wants to take including taking over shore based patrolling jointly with IAF or alone. Also some discussion are under way for boosting A&N command center in a big way with multi squadron placement there with force multipliers and a SAM shield (both MR and LR variants).

Will wait for more news from source and in public domain to let you all know..

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## Bheemsen

PARIKRAMA said:


> Some news
> 
> 
> .




This whole rafale fiasco is going towards insanity , should be stopped asap and other options to be explored.
Rafale as it is too much overpriced and will put huge dent to national economics and defense budget.


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## PARIKRAMA

++++
Some information on Source based news on Gripen Bid... 
++++

Sweden PM Stefan Lofven had a small talk with PM NaMo when both met in Mumbai for MII inauguration program. Both were joined by Saab CEO Hakan Bushke.
Saab has offered to partner with an Indian company in a JV with Saab investing 49% to develop on the product line Gripen NG further and finish the product with Indian side inputs and requirements.
This finished product will commence the final production in India and also plan for a naval variant after that.
This product will require a full so called 100% Technology transfer from Sweden to India for which Sweden government will allow Saab as well as provide them with taxation relief as they have done for Gripen project
The technology transfer will be for the product line Gripen NG or Gripen E not for earlier models in any manner.
PM Lofven and Saab CEO Hakan Bushke has appraised PM NaMo that Indian light fighter requirements is almost 400 and Gripen new product with Indian inputs can parallely supply and meet 50% of this requirement or 200 light fighter jets easily 
Further to this, PM Lofven has said in front of Saab chief Bushke to PM NaMo that Saab will use G2G route to sell of other products in the field of Surveillance, Electronic Warfare systems, and battle management systems for IAF as well as IN plus an added impetus for ICG for coastal security systems.
Also it was said that Saab already has multiple partnership in India as part of making a pyramid supply chain of ensuring component manufacturing in India to sub assembly level and will expand it further once Saab project of Gripen in India starts to ensure Indian MIC makes everything from component to sub assembly to assembly level things
These partnership includes renowned names like Pipavav Defence, Bharat Electronics, HAL , Kalyani Strategic Systems and Ashok Leyland. The other smaller players are also there
++
Comments
Clearly if you see Saab is using the magic trick of this figure of ADA 






And rehashing it as their idea for MII.

What is interesting is first few lines and this supply chain indicates they essentially want LCA MK2 to be replaced completely with Gripen NG with "sweet words" of designing the product further and finish it with Indian inputs before final production.

it also aims to look at almost 200 units or whatever is 50% of Indian Light fighter jet requirements. It aslo talks with the word "parallel" and trying to say they bring no harm to LCA product line.

Saab also plans for other product sales but via G2G route

A question i am wondering is for meeting fleet strength if Saab offer is really considered then essentially MK2 is game over.. 

+++

@Abingdonboy @Vauban @Taygibay @anant_s @Dash @raktaka @randomradio @Picdelamirand-oil @cerberus @Ankit Kumar @MilSpec @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ

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## Ankit Kumar

Here we need to make tough decisions 
1. Are we serious for an Indian Fighter Jet? If yes then simply tell SAAB , thanks but no thanks. 
2.And are we serious about providing fighter jets to our airforce without any foreign control ? 
3. And last, do we really want foreign technology infusion through the same company whom we buy jets from or we make separate deals and JVs, like JVs with Israel for AESA, Partnering Russia or European nations for engine , etc. 

If we are able to answer these 3 questions.... everything is all right. 

And for one saying Rafale is very costly, so the fact is so is Eurofighter and so is SH. 
Heck even the fly away cost of C/D variant of Gripen is more than 110 million dollars per aircraft without any weapons, training or ToT.

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## Bheemsen

PARIKRAMA said:


> ++++
> Some information on Source based news on Gripen Bid...
> ++++
> 
> Sweden PM Stefan Lofven had a small talk with PM NaMo when both met in Mumbai for MII inauguration program. Both were joined by Saab CEO Hakan Bushke.
> Saab has offered to partner with an Indian company in a JV with Saab investing 49% to develop on the product line Gripen NG further and finish the product with Indian side inputs and requirements.
> This finished product will commence the final production in India and also plan for a naval variant after that.
> This product will require a full so called 100% Technology transfer from Sweden to India for which Sweden government will allow Saab as well as provide them with taxation relief as they have done for Gripen project
> The technology transfer will be for the product line Gripen NG or Gripen E not for earlier models in any manner.
> PM Lofven and Saab CEO Hakan Bushke has appraised PM NaMo that Indian light fighter requirements is almost 400 and Gripen new product with Indian inputs can parallely supply and meet 50% of this requirement or 200 light fighter jets easily
> Further to this, PM Lofven has said in front of Saab chief Bushke to PM NaMo that Saab will use G2G route to sell of other products in the field of Surveillance, Electronic Warfare systems, and battle management systems for IAF as well as IN plus an added impetus for ICG for coastal security systems.
> Also it was said that Saab already has multiple partnership in India as part of making a pyramid supply chain of ensuring component manufacturing in India to sub assembly level and will expand it further once Saab project of Gripen in India starts to ensure Indian MIC makes everything from component to sub assembly to assembly level things
> These partnership includes renowned names like Pipavav Defence, Bharat Electronics, HAL , Kalyani Strategic Systems and Ashok Leyland. The other smaller players are also there
> ++
> Comments
> Clearly if you see Saab is using the magic trick of this figure of ADA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And rehashing it as their idea for MII.
> 
> What is interesting is first few lines and this supply chain indicates they essentially want LCA MK2 to be replaced completely with Gripen NG with "sweet words" of designing the product further and finish it with Indian inputs before final production.
> 
> it also aims to look at almost 200 units or whatever is 50% of Indian Light fighter jet requirements. It aslo talks with the word "parallel" and trying to say they bring no harm to LCA product line.
> 
> Saab also plans for other product sales but via G2G route
> 
> A question i am wondering is for meeting fleet strength if Saab offer is really considered then essentially MK2 is game over..
> 
> +++
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vauban @Taygibay @anant_s @Dash @raktaka @randomradio @Picdelamirand-oil @cerberus @Ankit Kumar @MilSpec @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ



Gripen will never be inducted in IAF with LCA program maturing this is strict no go , F18SH or rafale only fit the bill

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## GURU DUTT

PARIKRAMA said:


> Some news
> 
> *Budget 2016: Rafale jet deal unlikely in current fiscal
> The wait for the 36 Rafale combat aircraft is going to get longer due to budgetary constraints and the delay in concluding negotiations with French company Dassault.
> *
> By: Huma Siddiqui | New Delhi | February 19, 2016 12:46 AM
> 
> The wait for the 36 Rafale combat aircraft is going to get longer due to budgetary constraints and the delay in concluding negotiations with French company Dassault.
> 
> According to sources in the ministry of defence, though the negotiations with Dassault have been put on fast track, the deal is not expected to be cleared during this fiscal.
> 
> Speaking to FE on conditions of anonymity, an officer who has been part of the negotiating team, said, “The negotiations with the French company are on track. But there are several other agencies involved in this pact and it will take another few months before the negotiations are complete, which means the deal will not be done this fiscal ended March 2016.”
> 
> The sources have indicated despite PMO’s push for this deal, the cost of the combat machines which has gone up since the last negotiations and issuance of RFP in 2009, Indian side is expecting that through negotiations* it will manage to strike a deal at $ 7 bn for 36 fighter jets.*
> 
> *It is uncertain if the contract would be signed within the current fiscal even if negotiations were completed by late next month and all issues relating to technology transfer from Dassault were taken care of and papers readied before March 30.*
> 
> Apart from the lengthy process, other factors that might impact the much-awaited deal include government’s several social programmes, implementation of the 7th pay commission recommendations and the OROP arrears.
> 
> According to official sources, the negotiations have dragged on for so long due to issues related to *50% offsets requirement and transfer of technology. The French, it appears, are unwilling to transfer technology such as that of the electronically scanned AESA radar, citing lack of maturity of the Indian defence industry to absorb critical technologies*.
> 
> The final cost has come to about 2-3% more as it will be a government-to-government deal, defence minister Manohar Parrikar has expressed hope that the price of one Rafale jet will be 25% less*. The deal could cost India close to $8 billion, which includes the cost of 36 fighter jets in fly-away condition.*
> 
> 
> “We are still in the process of deciding whether there is a need to order of all spare parts that the aircraft will need for a period of either five or ten years. And the negotiations are still on what kind of financial penalties can be imposed on Dassault Aviation Company which is making the combat plane if the performance was unsatisfactory,” the sources told FE.
> Budget 2016: Rafale jet deal unlikely in current fiscal | The Financial Express
> ++
> 
> Comments
> 
> Signing can be done as I have said payment can be in March end or in April meaning next fiscal
> This is in spite of almost $ 6 Bn being available under un-utilised funds as per various news reports in last fortnight
> I had commented that Price negotiations wlll see an approximate Euro 700Mn more cut to Euro 8 Bn and finally around Eur 7.3 Bn or USD 7.89Bn and article talks about costing USD 8 Mn
> Technology transfer seems to be a myth here as under DPP 2016 Its manufacturing line and credible TOT for identified projects like LCA
> Perhaps this technology for AESA is more about negotiations for RBE2 AESA radar or a variant to AMCA talks
> I have said before that AMCA will have many tech derived from both Rafale and FGFA. Recall also that i informed here that NSA Ajit Doval was in Paris before Prez Hollande visit to talk about many "strategic" things including such negotiations.
> Interestingly the all inclusive price of the package its USD 8 Bn implies at current USD/INR of 68.728 its approximately INR 55000, again i have said its approx below 56000 Crs
> If i say divide at say 45-50% Jets+Weapons. 45% all support+infra+spares+etc and 10% customization the jets are still at approx 700-750 Crs with weapons loaded
> This is in line with what i have said about India wanting Jets+weapons at below Rs 800 Crs and are looking closer to Rs 700 Crs via negotiations. Thats approx Euro 93 Mn or USD 100 Mn mark which i have said all along and given a figure of Euro 3.6 Bn (jets +weapons) and negotiating more on that.
> @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @anant_s @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @others
> 
> I am still saying there would be lots of paid media articles to showcase that rafale deal is costly and rafale deal is not correct and what not... Strong brainwashing my Saab, Boeing and LM as part of their marketing blitz and muscle flexing..
> 
> I said in another thread DM MP is trying to dole out carrot and stick strategy for US MIC for the F16 deal with our neighbor and trying to "bluff" his way through a PR exercise.
> 
> If this article is true and as with source based news i gave before this may be point to the true valuation of Rafale Deal...
> 
> We are getting a good deal from France and anything below USD 100 or Euro 93 Mn for jets+weapons is a steal.. I hope the country sees the truth if whatever i have said and report like this and Dinakar Peri from Hindu also has said the same thing and we stop chasing other aircrafts and make most of what we have in front of us..
> 
> I am waiting for IN confirmation of Rafale M requirements.. Judging from the source based talks, IN has indicated 4 tranches of purchase so far.. Each tranch is approximated around 55-60 Jets totalling approx 200+ over next 2 decades.
> Oh a side news, IN wants minimum two bigger carriers for approx 55-60 jets and both they want before completion of 2027-2042 naval modernization plan timeline ending. So 110+ requirements are coming from carriers needs alone and rest from enhanced operations which IN wants to take including taking over shore based patrolling jointly with IAF or alone. Also some discussion are under way for boosting A&N command center in a big way with multi squadron placement there with force multipliers and a SAM shield (both MR and LR variants).
> 
> Will wait for more news from source and in public domain to let you all know..


apart from what paid media traders and there presstitutes got to say on rafale facts are :

1.Rafale is the best 4.5+ gen fighter out there

2.Rafale is way too costly and india just might not buy it

3.SAAB has gone all out to make grippen deal

4.Sensing a kill both LM (F16) and Boeing (SuperHornet) have also made a very good offer

5.meaning niether SAAB or Dassult & LM gonna make it cause IAF wants a twin engined medium weight and range fighter for MRCA with SEAD & DEAD in mind and nothing comes close to FA-18 EF/Grolwer for this job


Meaning clear winner is Boeing with super hornets and growlers ... baaki lagge raho

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## raktaka

PARIKRAMA said:


> ++++
> Some information on Source based news on Gripen Bid...
> ++++
> 
> Sweden PM Stefan Lofven had a small talk with PM NaMo when both met in Mumbai for MII inauguration program. Both were joined by Saab CEO Hakan Bushke.
> Saab has offered to partner with an Indian company in a JV with Saab investing 49% to develop on the product line Gripen NG further and finish the product with Indian side inputs and requirements.
> This finished product will commence the final production in India and also plan for a naval variant after that.
> This product will require a full so called 100% Technology transfer from Sweden to India for which Sweden government will allow Saab as well as provide them with taxation relief as they have done for Gripen project
> The technology transfer will be for the product line Gripen NG or Gripen E not for earlier models in any manner.
> PM Lofven and Saab CEO Hakan Bushke has appraised PM NaMo that Indian light fighter requirements is almost 400 and Gripen new product with Indian inputs can parallely supply and meet 50% of this requirement or 200 light fighter jets easily
> Further to this, PM Lofven has said in front of Saab chief Bushke to PM NaMo that Saab will use G2G route to sell of other products in the field of Surveillance, Electronic Warfare systems, and battle management systems for IAF as well as IN plus an added impetus for ICG for coastal security systems.
> Also it was said that Saab already has multiple partnership in India as part of making a pyramid supply chain of ensuring component manufacturing in India to sub assembly level and will expand it further once Saab project of Gripen in India starts to ensure Indian MIC makes everything from component to sub assembly to assembly level things
> These partnership includes renowned names like Pipavav Defence, Bharat Electronics, HAL , Kalyani Strategic Systems and Ashok Leyland. The other smaller players are also there
> ++
> Comments
> Clearly if you see Saab is using the magic trick of this figure of ADA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And rehashing it as their idea for MII.
> 
> What is interesting is first few lines and this supply chain indicates they essentially want LCA MK2 to be replaced completely with Gripen NG with "sweet words" of designing the product further and finish it with Indian inputs before final production.
> 
> it also aims to look at almost 200 units or whatever is 50% of Indian Light fighter jet requirements. It aslo talks with the word "parallel" and trying to say they bring no harm to LCA product line.
> 
> Saab also plans for other product sales but via G2G route
> 
> A question i am wondering is for meeting fleet strength if Saab offer is really considered then essentially MK2 is game over..
> 
> +++
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vauban @Taygibay @anant_s @Dash @raktaka @randomradio @Picdelamirand-oil @cerberus @Ankit Kumar @MilSpec @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ



It is not necessary that LCA Mk2 will be replaced entirely by Grippen. Grippen can be part of LCA Mk2 if the deal is structure properly. Given HAL will have no interest in evolving LCA and ADA will be stuck with it, Grippen and its Ecosystem will bring fresh blood into the program.

However I am not convinced that SAAB can develop an ecosystem in India. I am not sure they themselves have an ecosystem. They depend on US and Europe for their supply chain.

Finally LCA has minimal export potential. However Grippen Made in India has TREMENDOUS export potential.

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## PARIKRAMA

raktaka said:


> It is not necessary that LCA Mk2 will be replaced entirely by Grippen. Grippen can be part of LCA Mk2 if the deal is structure properly. Given HAL will have no interest in evolving LCA and ADA will be stuck with it, Grippen and its Ecosystem will bring fresh blood into the program.
> 
> However I am not convinced that SAAB can develop an ecosystem in India. I am not sure they themselves have an ecosystem. They depend on US and Europe for their supply chain.
> 
> Finally LCA has minimal export potential. However Grippen Made in India has TREMENDOUS export potential.


That's what Even I thought after hearing what source said.. But I also doubt the ecosystem talks and parallel wordings...

I don't know even know If light fighter potential estimate of 400 and Gripen meeting 50% of it is how far making sense..

Essentially Boeing or Saab all want minimum 200 orders..

I don think such big numbers cut through unless of course MK2 program is delayed by a huge margin and Rafale MII also falls apart..

Sadly everybody is just jumping on one bluff of DM MP


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## GURU DUTT

PARIKRAMA said:


> That's what Even I thought after hearing what source said.. But I also doubt the ecosystem talks and parallel wordings...
> 
> I don't know even know If light fighter potential estimate of 400 and Gripen meeting 50% of it is how far making sense..
> 
> Essentially Boeing or Saab all want minimum 200 orders..
> 
> I don think such big numbers cut through unless of course MK2 program is delayed by a huge margin and Rafale MII also falls apart..
> 
> Sadly everybody is just jumping on one bluff of DM MP


there is no use left of MK2 if it arrives post 2020 better go with AMCA & PAKFA and for the time bieng go for super hornets and MK1A as they share same enigens and radar

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## Perpendicular

PARIKRAMA said:


> ++++
> 
> A question i am wondering is for meeting fleet strength if Saab offer is really considered then essentially MK2 is game over..
> 
> +++
> 
> [[/USER]



Then we will loose not one but two of our programs i.e LCA MKII followed by AMCA. If we replaced the light fighter requirement from outside.
Two possibilities that i can think of 
1. Either we have decided that IAF and IN will eventually go for Rafales with big numbers, while using Boeing, saab and others as pressure tactics.
2. Or we have made up our mind for 36 Rafales only and looking for an alternate twin engine "Make in India" plane that can fit into IN requirements also. 

Or F35 comes into picture somehow.

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## PARIKRAMA

Perpendicular said:


> Then we will loose not one but two of our programs i.e LCA MKII followed by AMCA. If we replaced the light fighter requirement from outside.
> Two possibilities that i can think of
> 1. Either we have decided that IAF and IN will eventually go for Rafales with big numbers, while using Boeing, saab and others as pressure tactics.
> 2. Or we have made up our mind for 36 Rafales only and looking for an alternate twin engine "Make in India" plane that can fit into IN requirements also.
> 
> Or F35 comes into picture somehow.



What you are saying is what is in my mind too especially the first point.. A bluff and a pressure tactic

The second point I had pasted here in Jan 29th 2016 here



PARIKRAMA said:


> Political will discussion
> 
> India will finally say what the final price expectation for just 36 jets
> If its good enough 18 follow on will be sealed.
> If the costs and offsets and plan for MII is seriously agreed in the form of offset implementation then GOI will agree for Rafale deal for a total of 200+ in MII.
> If there is no mutual agreement, political will is being made to KILL RAFALE DEAL PERMANENTLY.



Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 110


The very next post had few very good lines from my good friend @Abingdonboy 


Abingdonboy said:


> Both India and France are going to look spectacuarly foolish if their relationship collapses now with so much new found momentum being built up. I just don't see it happening if I am honest- both sides and both leaders have far too much invested in the relationship for such an implosion to take place now.
> 
> I just can't shake the feeling that France has this in the bag- Dassault just needs to get in line and surely the French Government has enough control over it to make it so?



The F35 coming into picture is way too forward as the platform as of today is not fully matured.. I dont think IAF or IN would be interested atm but perhaps a decade or 15 years later based on some feedback and assessment when they take them on in bilateral exercises, the opinions may change.. For F35 to come to party, its way way too early..

+++

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## raktaka

PARIKRAMA said:


> That's what Even I thought after hearing what source said.. But I also doubt the ecosystem talks and parallel wordings...
> 
> I don't know even know If light fighter potential estimate of 400 and Gripen meeting 50% of it is how far making sense..
> 
> Essentially Boeing or Saab all want minimum 200 orders..
> 
> I don think such big numbers cut through unless of course MK2 program is delayed by a huge margin and Rafale MII also falls apart..
> 
> Sadly everybody is just jumping on one bluff of DM MP



With India backing SAAB, Grippen can touch the 200 aircraft target by international sales. IAF will not be its sole customer. Much will depend on how the Indian economy grows in the next 5 years.

DM MP has kept an open mind. One can hardly call that a "bluff".

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## Taygibay

So fine, as per news, SAAB will halve the numbers of lighter jets with LCA
and many if not most Indians seem to be OK with that from judging this thread!

That from the article posted by Parik #2420 :

Saab has offered to partner with an Indian company in a JV with Saab investing 49% to develop on the product line Gripen NG further and finish the product with Indian side inputs and requirements.

This finished product will commence the final production in India and also plan for a naval variant after that.
doesn't say a production line in so many words but let's suppose it does since
the rest of the piece details a supply chain.

Do you guys realize that the Gripen NG will already have a prod line in Brazil?
That it had a prod line in Sweden last I checked. That it could loose that one ...
and end up with 2 production lines outsourced is beyond me but they're Swedes
known for funky ideas so let's say so, why don't they just sell the company as we
heard suggested even for Dassault bought by India by the most exalted fanboys?

But you do get it that what you just bought is a fancy foreign car dealership.
You will learn to make and fix some stuff on that line but not all and not soon.
You will have to import precious parts for years as would have happened anyhow.
Well! Guess what, on Gripen as on F-16, many are US sourced... as on Tejas.

And a dealership implies dealers, it says so in the name. Meet MIC, he sells everything ...
Wouldn't it be simpler to forget strategy altogether & just rub up to your master?
Take the jump and become America's friend to get direct access to the goodies?

Or, you can keep at what you were doing : try your best in-house and buy precisely
what you need to import, from various sources, gaining links and not ties?


Just sayin' Tay.

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## PARIKRAMA

TBH i always thought like this

LCA MK1 --- > LCA Mark 1A ---- > LCA Mark 2 ----- > AMCA

I thought thats the evolutionary mechanism from moving from 4 gen to 4.5th gen to finally 5 th Gen

A step by step process of developing the ecosystems and our MIC.

@Taygibay You remember when i said it will take at least a decade based on present LCA program for our MIC to efficiently reach a level of sufficient skill, knowledge and capability based on which we can start utilising such things on our next program

Thus the above is what i have always felt in my mind.. Not saying i am 100% correct of course..

To me Saab or LM/Boeing is one and the same.. and you are correct why would Saab want both Brazil and India to have multiple lines of the same product.. Perhaps they know the capability of either brazil is limited or they are just trying to fish more with enticing Indian line or both lines are just plain assembled lines from kits and the main plant from Sweden and US MIC keeps their end rolling by sending these 2 places "Kits" for localised so called assembly or production..

Edit: I meant based on that ADA diagram of pyramid of pvt sector handling of component manufacturing and semi assembly and assembly level stuff

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## Perpendicular

Taygibay said:


> Or, you can keep what you were doing : try your best in-house and buy precisely what you need to import, from various sources, gaining links and not ties?


I think that's the general idea among most.
But at this point in time we are still quite far, even from reaching that level of precision imports. Hence the situation we find ourselves in.

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## halupridol

@PARIKRAMA
more confusion here.
according to my source,,negotiations r only for 36(+18optional),,all French made,,no TOT rafale or related tech knowhow for lca/amca,,,,issue is price n configuration.
,further fighter(licence production aka "make in India") acquisitions will be based on some new behind the door GtG deal ,,might not be rafale.
also thr is little to no chance of rafale-m,,,if we want emals,nuclear propulsion thn we will have to go wid American fighters.

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## Ankit Kumar

Too much of confusion right now 
The correct way I think is to 
1. Scale up production of Su30Mkis and order some additional from Russia is numbers is a concern and the made in Russia one is cheap and we save a good amount. 
2. Do anything but ensure that Tejas achives FOC quick and prototypes of Tejas Mk1A roll out soon. 
3. Make ground preparations for a private assembly line of Tejas Mk1A. 
4. Make a simple deal with Dassault without offsets and any, I repeat any kind of TOT or reinvestment in India and buy Rafales at fly away costs for about 4 squadron .
5. And then look up for partners to start up development of aircraft subsystems like we are doing on radars with Israel. 
6. And then look for a MMRCA aircraft from a private assembly line , if the problem of falling numbers is more. Even if it means going for another Russian platform.

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## PARIKRAMA

halupridol said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> more confusion here.
> according to my source,,negotiations r only for 36(+18optional),,all French made,,no TOT rafale or related tech knowhow for lca/amca,,,,issue is price n configuration.
> ,further fighter acquisitions will be based on some new behind the door GtG deal ,,might not be rafale.
> also thr is little to no chance of rafale-m,,,if we want emals,nuclear propulsion thn we will have to go wid American fighters.



Nice so for DM MP it looks like a prom night scenario.. Whom he will take for the ball dance?
Dassault a french Beauty..
LM/Boeing - American hottie..
Saab - Swedish stunner...

Looks like all are waiting to see who comes by the arms of our DM entering the dance floor?

Side and important question - Is the prom night this year or next or next to next.....

@halupridol 
Oh about EMALs i guess you did nt see a link by @Ankit Kumar ..







Now thats Yusuf whose posting it .. Lol 


Here from the article : 
*But as per the terms of reference for the JWGACTC "only conventional propulsion systems" (gas turbines or diesel-electric systems) are under discussion as of now. "The US has its own export control laws... nuclear propulsion is not on the table," said an MoD source. *

article link
India, US talk aircraft carrier technology, but key point off the menu - The Economic Times

post link courtesy @Ankit Kumar 
US, Delhi Begin Talks To Build Iconic F-16 Fighter Jets In India: Report | Page 2

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## halupridol

PARIKRAMA said:


> @halupridol
> Oh about EMALs i guess you did nt see a link by @Ankit Kumar ..
> 
> View attachment 294851
> 
> 
> Now thats Yusuf whose posting it .. Lol
> 
> 
> Here from the article :
> *But as per the terms of reference for the JWGACTC "only conventional propulsion systems" (gas turbines or diesel-electric systems) are under discussion as of now. "The US has its own export control laws... nuclear propulsion is not on the table," said an MoD source. *
> 
> article link
> India, US talk aircraft carrier technology, but key point off the menu - The Economic Times
> 
> post link courtesy @Ankit Kumar
> US, Delhi Begin Talks To Build Iconic F-16 Fighter Jets In India: Report | Page 2


but according to my source we r actively seeking emals n nuc prop,,,well we will have to wait,,,at present India n US r not _ tight _ enuff,,,might not be same when Chinese navy arrives at Gwadar in near future.

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## Masterhunter

Hell hound said:


> but you may be facing j 20 which is going to squat your su 30 like flies due to its huge rcs while f18 has low rcs due to encased weapons and have much better ew then any of the 6 mmrca jets in its growler configuration.its the only 4 gen jet that can survive 5 gen jet's attack and hurt them back.rest its your money your choice.



I think mate....Growler version of F18 is not for export.... Plz check.. To get Growler if offered and cleared by US congress... India has to sign too many agreements. 
I think it's best to avoid Growler and without Growler, F18 SH is an average plane... Su35 is cheaper and more capable. If we have to dump rafale ( that is highly unlikely), why we should buy F18, we will buy a equally capable aircraft like Su 35 for airsuperiority or Su34 for ground attack.. A order of 100 each to Russia and we will get great discount and may be two nuclear sub on lease...
U can keep your F18 and give it as aid to pak..



PARIKRAMA said:


> That's what Even I thought after hearing what source said.. But I also doubt the ecosystem talks and parallel wordings...
> 
> I don't know even know If light fighter potential estimate of 400 and Gripen meeting 50% of it is how far making sense..
> 
> Essentially Boeing or Saab all want minimum 200 orders..
> 
> I don think such big numbers cut through unless of course MK2 program is delayed by a huge margin and Rafale MII also falls apart..
> 
> Sadly everybody is just jumping on one bluff of DM MP



See Parik, there is scope of requirement of about 500 jets in medium term with IAF and about 200-250 odd with IN..

By 2030, IAF needs 45 sqn ( if 20/sqn) about 900 planes...
By 2030, it will have
Su30.. 15-17 sqn...310-350planes..
FGFA.. 2-3 sqn.. 40-60
LCA Mk1a.. 6sqn ..120
MIG/Jag/Mirage.. 9sqn.. 180 
Rafale..3 sqn...54
Total of 704-764... 
Hence a deficiency of 140-200 planes.. 

Add to it the phasing out of 9sqn of MIG29/mirage/Jags.. The total need is 320-380 aircrafts by 2035..

Assume IAF buy 140 more Rafales... There is still requirement of 180-240 planes.. Even if Gripen gets order of 140-160 planes it's good enuf for them... Rest 40-80 can be LCA mk2(if IAF want) or AMCA (if entered in sqn service by 2035. Also... There is talk of increasing authorised sqn strength to 60sqn... If that happens add 300 more planes..

For IN... 
LCA Mk2 is supported by IN but gripen is pitching for carrier version. If Gripen comes... This is where it harms most on N-AMCA development. 
IN needs more than 250 jets
40 each for Vikramaditya and vikrant.. Mig29/NLCA
60 rafale each for Vishal class*2.. 
Also they need Aircraft for A&N and their base defences ... About 3 sqn strength minimum..60
So total requirement is about 260 jets.. If IN goes for rafale ..it's minimum of 150 .. And rest 50-60 can either be NLCA or gripen...

That is what SAAB is looking at 140 odd for IAF and 60 odd for IN.. And it's 200.. Export order and new order due to increase in sqn strength is additional.. 
Rafale MII line..will touch 300 aircraft requirement combined excluding export by 2035...( If AMCA is delayed or sqn strength is increased) or else 200 is minimum confirmed.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

halupridol said:


> but according to my source we r actively seeking emals n nuc prop,,,well we will have to wait,,,at present India n US r not _ tight _ enuff,,,might not be same when Chinese navy arrives at Gwadar in near future.


Just a small problem of reliability you will loss 4 time the normal number of plane.


> The EMALS catapult replaced the steam-powered catapult system, and has had its share of problems. By the time aircraft compatibility tests ended in April 2014, and more than 3,000 dead-load launches were added to the mix, EMALS had a reliability rate of 240 launches without failure. That was far short of the 1,250 launches the system should have been hitting at that point.


EMALS fizzles in first public launch aboard the Ford

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## Armani

PARIKRAMA said:


> @halupridol
> Oh about EMALs i guess you did nt see a link by @Ankit Kumar ..
> 
> View attachment 294851
> 
> 
> Now thats Yusuf whose posting it .. Lol
> 
> 
> Here from the article :
> *But as per the terms of reference for the JWGACTC "only conventional propulsion systems" (gas turbines or diesel-electric systems) are under discussion as of now. "The US has its own export control laws... nuclear propulsion is not on the table," said an MoD source. *
> 
> article link
> India, US talk aircraft carrier technology, but key point off the menu - The Economic Times
> 
> post link courtesy @Ankit Kumar
> US, Delhi Begin Talks To Build Iconic F-16 Fighter Jets In India: Report | Page 2



Quoting _*Gessler*_ from other forums regarding the same news...

" I think there has been much jumping of the gun by the reporters here. There was never any plan or hope to receive nuclear propulsion technology from US. The only reason why the US is being brought onboard is because of the EMALS technology that we wish to incorporate into our future carriers. That's it.

Reason for groups like the JWGACTC to be formed is because the incorporation of concepts like EMALS includes a significant level of technology-sharing (not necessarily transfer) and local capacity-building measures and infrastructure consultancy. The JWG is the body that's going to assess all these needs and prepare reports.

The US already supplies the propulsion for conventional carriers like the under-construction IAC-1 Vikrant, which uses the General Electric LM2500+ gas turbines. There is talk of a 2nd Vikrant-class carrier (nothing finalized yet) so the topic may have been related to that.

IAC-2's nuclear propulsion was always meant to be indigenous, there is simply no other way. BARC & DAE are already working on improved reactors for future nuclear submarines, going forward from the Arihant's propulsion, and now the carrier reactor project will also be pursued. It's going to take some time, but as far as IAC-2 is concerned, we have quite a lot of time. "

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## PARIKRAMA

One more theory coming out now...

Seems UAE 60 jets deal and Indian Rafale deals are connected.

_*UAEAF is inclined to procure—just like India—the Rafale MMRCAs & Scorpene SSKs as well & therefore Indian human resource assistance becomes imperative. Furthermore, if a an Indian private-sector company teams up with its UAE counterpart (which has access to the UAE’s sovereign wealth investment funds) to assemble & extend through-life product-support for the Rafale fleets of both the IAF & UAEAF, then this becomes a win-win situation from a financial standpoint. This is what has been going on behind-the-scenes & that’s why negotiations have been protractive. In the coming months all this will come to light, rest assured.*_

*- Prasun K Sengupta*

Comments

@Picdelamirand-oil @Vauban @Taygibay @Abingdonboy @randomradio @MilSpec @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @raktaka @cerberus @others

Now does PSK mean to say that UAE Rafales or Indian Rafales will be made in Indian line only.. He used the words "*assemble & extend through-life product-support for the Rafale fleets of both the IAF & UAEAF"*

If True its a clear indication that UAE customized version Rafale and Indian customize version Rafale will share many similarities. So is it hinting both may have similar new M88 engine of same thrust? I thought Indian Rafales will have around 83-85 Kn (8.3-8.5T)thrust and UAE will have 90 Kn.. Or both parties have agreed for the new Safran engine of 8.3T-8.5T.. Or perhaps India has agreed like UAE the 9 Tonnes or 89-90Kn engine thrust.

I know PSK cannot be taken on face value.. But if his words have any true indication, does not that indicate what we have discussed before..

You remember the sheet i pasted before






Is it not in a manner like saying 60 export orders are assured...

So in best case scenario or medium case scenario, the export potential line within MII can actually give UAE their 60 orders within 4+ years to max 7+ years.

If this case is true, then DA will get a big boost in one more order from say Malaysia who follows Indian orders a lot..

That can assure a squadron of 16 unit sales surely keeping alive the MII line export part for 1 year under best case to 2 years under medium case.

Essentially does that not mean the line installation cost for India may also come down owing to say small % cost say like max 20-25% being borne by UAE and a similar amount for new ongoing engine development too..

Is that the real deal which requires time as feedback has to come from say some customers like UAE and some verbal talks from say Malaysia?

This development is making me wonder multiple scenarios...But i can surely see lots of cost benefit as well as long term benefit out of this...

After all recently UAE Adnoc investment in oil reserves in ISPRL and commitment for $75 Bn investment are all showing an upswing in our strategic relations..... So can this lead to such a military cooperation situation?

This just puts us onto a superb new scenario situation.. Pls do comment gentlemen... its a "IF" situation but still a "possibility"

@Armani : Gessler words are always good.. He is a keen follower of PSK's Blog.. I keep reading his interactions there with PSK who is very fond of him.... I read a lot of his post from the past in here in PDF.. But dont know why he is now not active.. i cant seems to tag him too.. Perhaps he is serving a long forced holiday.. Do let him know many of his friends are waiting for him to come over here and add his views....

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## GURU DUTT

3 Rafales = AK-47s for entire police force
4 Rafales = 1 nuclear powered submarine 
6 Rafales = 400 light helicopters K-226T or Ecureil
8 Rafales = 4 S-400 systems 
10 Rafales = 1 aircraft carrier ...
36 Rafales = 18 Scorpene

I am telling this since from many months that abandon this Rafale deal, we are getting robbed.

We have NO REASON WITH US TO ACQUIRE IT. Bying rafale @270 million/per piece will be the biggest blunder in the Indian History.

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## raktaka

PARIKRAMA said:


> One more theory coming out now...
> 
> Seems UAE 60 jets deal and Indian Rafale deals are connected.
> 
> _*UAEAF is inclined to procure—just like India—the Rafale MMRCAs & Scorpene SSKs as well & therefore Indian human resource assistance becomes imperative. Furthermore, if a an Indian private-sector company teams up with its UAE counterpart (which has access to the UAE’s sovereign wealth investment funds) to assemble & extend through-life product-support for the Rafale fleets of both the IAF & UAEAF, then this becomes a win-win situation from a financial standpoint. This is what has been going on behind-the-scenes & that’s why negotiations have been protractive. In the coming months all this will come to light, rest assured.*_
> 
> *- Prasun K Sengupta*
> 
> Comments
> 
> @Picdelamirand-oil @Vauban @Taygibay @Abingdonboy @randomradio @MilSpec @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @raktaka @cerberus @others
> 
> Now does PSK mean to say that UAE Rafales or Indian Rafales will be made in Indian line only.. He used the words "*assemble & extend through-life product-support for the Rafale fleets of both the IAF & UAEAF"*
> 
> If True its a clear indication that UAE customized version Rafale and Indian customize version Rafale will share many similarities. So is it hinting both may have similar new M88 engine of same thrust? I thought Indian Rafales will have around 83-85 Kn (8.3-8.5T)thrust and UAE will have 90 Kn.. Or both parties have agreed for the new Safran engine of 8.3T-8.5T.. Or perhaps India has agreed like UAE the 9 Tonnes or 89-90Kn engine thrust.
> 
> I know PSK cannot be taken on face value.. But if his words have any true indication, does not that indicate what we have discussed before..
> 
> You remember the sheet i pasted before
> 
> View attachment 294913
> 
> 
> Is it not in a manner like saying 60 export orders are assured...
> 
> So in best case scenario or medium case scenario, the export potential line within MII can actually give UAE their 60 orders within 4+ years to max 7+ years.
> 
> If this case is true, then DA will get a big boost in one more order from say Malaysia who follows Indian orders a lot..
> 
> That can assure a squadron of 16 unit sales surely keeping alive the MII line export part for 1 year under best case to 2 years under medium case.
> 
> Essentially does that not mean the line installation cost for India may also come down owing to say small % cost say like max 20-25% being borne by UAE and a similar amount for new ongoing engine development too..
> 
> Is that the real deal which requires time as feedback has to come from say some customers like UAE and some verbal talks from say Malaysia?
> 
> This development is making me wonder multiple scenarios...But i can surely see lots of cost benefit as well as long term benefit out of this...
> 
> After all recently UAE Adnoc investment in oil reserves in ISPRL and commitment for $75 Bn investment are all showing an upswing in our strategic relations..... So can this lead to such a military cooperation situation?
> 
> This just puts us onto a superb new scenario situation.. Pls do comment gentlemen... its a "IF" situation but still a "possibility"
> 
> @Armani : Gessler words are always good.. He is a keen follower of PSK's Blog.. I keep reading his interactions there with PSK who is very fond of him.... I read a lot of his post from the past in here in PDF.. But dont know why he is now not active.. i cant seems to tag him too.. Perhaps he is serving a long forced holiday.. Do let him know many of his friends are waiting for him to come over here and add his views....



This is very much possible. After all if UAE has offered us free oil for or strategic reserve then it makes imminent sense to gang up against the french and negotiate a better deal. 

It will be a win-win-win situation. Which Modi as leader, anything is possible.

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## PARIKRAMA

GURU DUTT said:


> 3 Rafales = AK-47s for entire police force
> 4 Rafales = 1 nuclear powered submarine
> 6 Rafales = 400 light helicopters K-226T or Ecureil
> 8 Rafales = 4 S-400 systems
> 10 Rafales = 1 aircraft carrier ...
> 36 Rafales = 18 Scorpene
> 
> I am telling this since from many months that abandon this Rafale deal, we are getting robbed.
> 
> We have NO REASON WITH US TO ACQUIRE IT. Bying rafale @270 million/per piece will be the biggest blunder in the Indian History.



Kindly do provide a similar case like Rafale package of jets +weapons +support +spares +costomization +training +infra +others like so called F16s and F18s also

So that the same table of comparison can be updated

Pls also tell us how will we get Growlers?

Pls also enlighten us what will be the price for so called other jets in a same package scenario and compare to "$270Mn"

For your help and information.. a small but important detail

Quoting from the source
*Management of Australia’s Air Combat Capability—F/A-18 Hornet and Super Hornet Fleet Upgrades and Sustainment*
*



*

The RAAF’s 71 F/A-18A/B Hornet aircraft are assigned to three operational squadrons and a training squadron.3 The Hornets entered service during the period 1985–90, and were originally planned to be withdrawn from service in 2010–15. However, Government decisions made in 2006 and 2009 extended the withdrawal period to 2017–20, and in May 2012 the need for a possible further extension arose, because of the Government’s decision to better align the delivery of Australia’s F-35A aircraft with the US Department of Defense’s F-35 production and acquisition schedule.4 Consequently, the precise timing of the F/A-18A/B withdrawal from service is dependent upon the delivery of the F-35A aircraft under schedules that are yet to be finalised.

The RAAF’s 24 F/A-18F Super Hornet aircraft were acquired in 2010, and are operated in two squadrons.5 These aircraft replaced the RAAF’s 21 F-111 strike/reconnaissance aircraft, which were withdrawn from service in 2010.6 Currently, the Planned Withdrawal Date for the Super Hornets is 2025.








11. The audit examined:

• the sustainment aspects of the F/A-18A/B Hornet and F/A-18F Super Hornet fleets, including the achievement of specified operational availability; and
• the structural-refurbishment arrangements that provide a level of assurance that the F/A-18A/B Hornet aircraft will remain serviceable until their current Planned Withdrawal Date of 2020

18. The most recent additions to the RAAF’s air combat capability are the *24 *Super Hornets that were progressively delivered to RAAF Base Amberley, near Brisbane, between March 2010 and October 2011. The Super Hornet *acquisition and its in-service support are largely based on US Government Foreign Military Sales arrangements* that are designed to maximise commonality with US Navy F/A-18F sustainment arrangements.* The RAAF’s F/A-18F Operational Maintenance squadrons are therefore organised as ‘pseudo’ deployed US Navy Super Hornet squadrons, drawing assistance from the supplier/repair-vendor network used by the US Navy.*


However, the report outlines the significant risks that will require close management by Defence in the final stages of sustainment of the F/A-18A/B fleet in particular, when airframe hours flown and fatigue-life expended will be greatest.


53. To ensure that the Super Hornet fleet’s ongoing support and capability development occur cost effectively, *Defence is seeking to maintain close commonality with the US Navy in terms of Super Hornet operation, maintenance and support. This is being achieved through a combination of commercial contracting and the acquisition of maintenance items and technical support via US Foreign Military Sales agreements.*

54. *However, at the time of the audit, the Super Hornet sustainment arrangements were in their formative stage, and adjustments were ongoing. At times, Tactical Fighter SPO has been unable to fulfil the squadrons’ demands for maintenance spares within specified timeframes. This has affected the availability of aircraft as specified in Materiel Sustainment Agreements between the RAAF and DMO.*


Audit brochure

So F18F superhornet fleet for 10 years cost in USD is approximately USD 180 Mn/Jet and as points indicate the support package and other spares is an issue as its not a part of the original deal..
Infrastructure which for Rafales cost a almost Euro 1Bn+ is already there for Australia for older F18 A/B
And IAF wanted a package deal for 40 years life in sustainment clause..

Important to note last point states
*Tactical Fighter SPO has been unable to fulfil the squadrons’ demands for maintenance spares within specified timeframes. This has affected the availability of aircraft as specified in Materiel Sustainment Agreements between the RAAF and DMO.

*
if you add up the T&C for rafales as asked by India for F18s and also add Infrastructure base setup cost as well as Local MRO (Australia uses directly USN MRO) you will see cost ballooning to humongous "$270Mn" like figure only....

Don go by just figures as quoted by media bro, the truth is not as rosy as everybody depicts.. It holds true for Rafales it also holds true for LM or Boeing Jets or even Saab jets

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## Ankit Kumar

GURU DUTT said:


> 3 Rafales = AK-47s for entire police force
> 4 Rafales = 1 nuclear powered submarine
> 6 Rafales = 400 light helicopters K-226T or Ecureil
> 8 Rafales = 4 S-400 systems
> 10 Rafales = 1 aircraft carrier ...
> 36 Rafales = 18 Scorpene
> 
> I am telling this since from many months that abandon this Rafale deal, we are getting robbed.
> 
> We have NO REASON WITH US TO ACQUIRE IT. Bying rafale @270 million/per piece will be the biggest blunder in the Indian History.



The cheapest so called contender , Gripen... its C/D version in 2012 costed 110 million US dollars at fly away cost without any weapons, Training , TOT , reinvestment or local assembly. 

So estimate how much a NG with weapons and all the package in 2018 will cost ? 

Mark it, not less than 200 million dollars. 

I am not trying to favour Rafale, but just stating that if we want a western platform then, cheap is not an option. 

If we want 60 million dollars with everything, then MIG is waiting for us.

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## GURU DUTT

Ankit Kumar said:


> The cheapest so called contender , Gripen... its C/D version in 2012 costed 110 million US dollars at fly away cost without any weapons, Training , TOT , reinvestment or local assembly.
> 
> So estimate how much a NG with weapons and all the package in 2018 will cost ?
> 
> Mark it, not less than 200 million dollars.
> 
> I am not trying to favour Rafale, but just stating that if we want a western platform then, cheap is not an option.
> 
> If we want 60 million dollars with everything, then MIG is waiting for us.


thats exactly what im saying all along ditch this MRCA mindest and go for tejas with latest radar and EW/ACM suits and LDP and smart long range satnd off munations and take israeli help as they are masters of jugar and making old obsolete fighters a mighty monster and keep inducting Mig35s with israeli radar and avionicks and Su30MKI till FGFA/PAKFA arrive and work on AMCA in war footing niether we are cash rich arab states or europeans or americans we need to get things in low budget and we can do it stop wasting money on rafales or hornets or vipers and make our own effort work out like what china does as they say your enemy is often your best teacher cheers mate



PARIKRAMA said:


> Kindly do provide a similar case like Rafale package of jets +weapons +support +spares +costomization +training +infra +others like so called F16s and F18s also
> 
> So that the same table of comparison can be updated
> 
> Pls also tell us how will we get Growlers?
> 
> Pls also enlighten us what will be the price for so called other jets in a same package scenario and compare to "$270Mn"
> 
> For your help and information.. a small but important detail
> 
> Quoting from the source
> *Management of Australia’s Air Combat Capability—F/A-18 Hornet and Super Hornet Fleet Upgrades and Sustainment*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> The RAAF’s 71 F/A-18A/B Hornet aircraft are assigned to three operational squadrons and a training squadron.3 The Hornets entered service during the period 1985–90, and were originally planned to be withdrawn from service in 2010–15. However, Government decisions made in 2006 and 2009 extended the withdrawal period to 2017–20, and in May 2012 the need for a possible further extension arose, because of the Government’s decision to better align the delivery of Australia’s F-35A aircraft with the US Department of Defense’s F-35 production and acquisition schedule.4 Consequently, the precise timing of the F/A-18A/B withdrawal from service is dependent upon the delivery of the F-35A aircraft under schedules that are yet to be finalised.
> 
> The RAAF’s 24 F/A-18F Super Hornet aircraft were acquired in 2010, and are operated in two squadrons.5 These aircraft replaced the RAAF’s 21 F-111 strike/reconnaissance aircraft, which were withdrawn from service in 2010.6 Currently, the Planned Withdrawal Date for the Super Hornets is 2025.
> 
> 
> View attachment 294915
> 
> 
> 
> 11. The audit examined:
> 
> • the sustainment aspects of the F/A-18A/B Hornet and F/A-18F Super Hornet fleets, including the achievement of specified operational availability; and
> • the structural-refurbishment arrangements that provide a level of assurance that the F/A-18A/B Hornet aircraft will remain serviceable until their current Planned Withdrawal Date of 2020
> 
> 18. The most recent additions to the RAAF’s air combat capability are the *24 *Super Hornets that were progressively delivered to RAAF Base Amberley, near Brisbane, between March 2010 and October 2011. The Super Hornet *acquisition and its in-service support are largely based on US Government Foreign Military Sales arrangements* that are designed to maximise commonality with US Navy F/A-18F sustainment arrangements.* The RAAF’s F/A-18F Operational Maintenance squadrons are therefore organised as ‘pseudo’ deployed US Navy Super Hornet squadrons, drawing assistance from the supplier/repair-vendor network used by the US Navy.*
> 
> 
> However, the report outlines the significant risks that will require close management by Defence in the final stages of sustainment of the F/A-18A/B fleet in particular, when airframe hours flown and fatigue-life expended will be greatest.
> 
> 
> 53. To ensure that the Super Hornet fleet’s ongoing support and capability development occur cost effectively, *Defence is seeking to maintain close commonality with the US Navy in terms of Super Hornet operation, maintenance and support. This is being achieved through a combination of commercial contracting and the acquisition of maintenance items and technical support via US Foreign Military Sales agreements.*
> 
> 54. *However, at the time of the audit, the Super Hornet sustainment arrangements were in their formative stage, and adjustments were ongoing. At times, Tactical Fighter SPO has been unable to fulfil the squadrons’ demands for maintenance spares within specified timeframes. This has affected the availability of aircraft as specified in Materiel Sustainment Agreements between the RAAF and DMO.*
> 
> 
> Audit brochure
> 
> So F18F superhornet fleet for 10 years cost in USD is approximately USD 180 Mn/Jet and as points indicate the support package and other spares is an issue as its not a part of the original deal..
> Infrastructure which for Rafales cost a almost Euro 1Bn+ is already there for Australia for older F18 A/B
> And IAF wanted a package deal for 40 years life in sustainment clause..
> 
> Important to note last point states
> *Tactical Fighter SPO has been unable to fulfil the squadrons’ demands for maintenance spares within specified timeframes. This has affected the availability of aircraft as specified in Materiel Sustainment Agreements between the RAAF and DMO.
> 
> *
> if you add up the T&C for rafales as asked by India for F18s and also add Infrastructure base setup cost as well as Local MRO (Australia uses directly USN MRO) you will see cost ballooning to humongous "$270Mn" like figure only....
> 
> Don go by just figures as quoted by media bro, the truth is not as rosy as everybody depicts.. It holds true for Rafales it also holds true for LM or Boeing Jets or even Saab jets








forgive my ignorance sirji but why do we have to project the rates on life cycle base with all training and feul and maintaince ect ect ? 

even if rafale is "cheap" or "worth every penny" why should we go for it only why not induce more fulkrums and falnkers and give them better engines , radars , EW suits and weapons like spice & paveway series ?

hope you understand its way too late for 4th or 4.5+ gen fighter when china is already in final phase of testing two 5th gen fighter . cheers mate 

last but not the least no one i mean no one will give there latest research and technologies to us just cause we happen to be there biggest potential coustmors we need to make owr own effort worthwhile there is no short cut to success ... period

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## nik141993

Ankit Kumar said:


> The cheapest so called contender , Gripen... its C/D version in 2012 costed 110 million US dollars at fly away cost without any weapons, Training , TOT , reinvestment or local assembly.
> 
> So estimate how much a NG with weapons and all the package in 2018 will cost ?
> 
> Mark it, not less than 200 million dollars.
> 
> I am not trying to favour Rafale, but just stating that if we want a western platform then, cheap is not an option.
> 
> If we want 60 million dollars with everything, then MIG is waiting for us.


Buy MIG then at least we can add 4 for every Rafael we buy

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## PARIKRAMA

GURU DUTT said:


> forgive my ignorance sirji but why do we have to project the rates on life cycle base with all training and feul and maintaince ect ect ?
> 
> even if rafale is "cheap" or "worth every penny" why should we go for it only why not induce more fulkrums and falnkers and give them better engines , radars , EW suits and weapons like spice & paveway series ?
> 
> hope you understand its way too late for 4th or 4.5+ gen fighter when china is already in final phase of testing two 5th gen fighter . cheers mate



Bhai ji,

None of the discussion is about LCC...
Effectively its still the simple calculation where jets+weapons is less than Rs 800 Crs as per Hindu newspaper and closer to 720 Crs as per source based. Thats approx Euro 90-100 Mn per jet+weapons..or Euro 3.6 Bn for 36 Jets+Weapons

The rest is the support+infra package part with a bigger payment for customization.. You know right Rafale M88 Jet is 75Kn thrust we are trying to get a 83-85 Kn thrust or may be even same as UAE ones of 9T thrust.. So thats a cost addition which will mean we are looking for a bigger fleet not just 36..

The idea of not selecting Su35 or Mig35 is bcz we want to look at other options in western economies than put all eggs in Russian military hardwares..

We did increase MKis by 40 and eventually i have a strong feeling we will order another tranche perhaps in super configuration later and take MKI closer to 350 from present 312 (272+40). The super MKI will be almost at par with the 35s of Russia..

The 4.5th Gen will not go away for another 50 years.. The reason being barring F22 none of the platforms are matured and will take another decade to mature minimum.. On top 5th gen engines are not yet ready including Chinese 5th gen jets.. Moreover 5th gen needs lots of high maintenance and essentially operating a humongous fleet requires economic prosperity. Thats why for India to have a huge 5th gen fleet needs time for our economic growth to sustain that level.. Their availability to be high in 75% requires very huge cost needs and long time in hangers for preparing them for next sortie..

Thats why we require a strong 4.5th gen fleet..

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## Techy

@PARIKRAMA @GURU DUTT and @others:

I have been following this whole saga since last week or so with very keen interest ( let me make myself clear in beginning that I don't belong to any aircraft lobby ). We have few things well known at this juncture:

IAF need Aircrafts very urgently as lot of Migs to be retired in next few years.
Tejas MK2 is not gonna enter service in minimum 8 Years (Not before 2024 as per DRDO so, minimum by 2027).
Tejas MK 1 or MK1A will not be produced more than 120 by 2025.
SAAB is just doing a bluff they can't transfer meaningful techs as they are outsourcing it for themselves and also this will spell doom for homegrown LCA.
F-16/ F-18s will come with lot of strings and not with sensitive techs which India needs. Also, it can't be used for nuke deliveries as earlier posted in this thread.
IAF is bent on having western aircraft for higher availability and thus either Rafale or Typhoon fits the bill but both are very expensive thus resulting in whole MMRCA delays.
So, what should be done to address depleting squadron numbers?

I would suggest to persist with Rafale for all its benefits but as this is taking its own time, explore another options as well.

Let's keep negotiations for 36 + 18 Rafales as well as make in India part but in the meantime turn to Russia for second line (not USA for F series or SAAB).
I read somewhere that Mig is willing to ensure 75-80% of average availability for MIG-35. Hence, similar to MIG-29 UPG lines, 60 MIG-35 planes can be ordered for Airforce and same production line may be used for further Navy orders for IAC-1 and IAC-2 as well. This will guarantee minimum order of 120 MIG-35/MIG-29KUBs for that production line and hence will justify the cost of setting up that line with a Private player as well (same was hinted by MIG CEO).


> Mig CEO Sergei Korotkov said that Indian Air Force and Indian Ministry of Defence (MOD) never officially debriefed Mig Corporation, why its Mig-35 fighter jet offered under MMRCA Contract was eliminated and what were technical reasons for its ouster from MMRCA Race.
> 
> Korotkov also said that Indian Air force which also operates large numbers of upgraded Mig-29UPG will need minimal training and infrastructure and logistics changes to adopt Mig-35 into its operational service by Indian Air force.



Apart from MIG-35 additional 40 SU-30MKI speculated will bring the numbers to minimum 100 extra jets in same time period at a lower cost. This will be in parallel to Rafale saga and say india only purchases 54 Rafales (worst case) then, MIG-35 numbers can be increased for IAF based on their requirements. If this is followed then, we will have 60+40+54(MIG-35, SU-30MKI and Rafale respectively) by 2025 without much loss in quality and also with lesser budget.. a win-win for MOD as saved money can be routed to say.. AMCA or FGFA project. Thus, IAF will be happy, Navy also happy and it bodes well with Make in India as well.

Please share your thoughts on this considering it as an alternate approach to fix the sqdn numbers.

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## GURU DUTT

Techy said:


> @PARIKRAMA @GURU DUTT and @others:
> 
> I
> 
> Apart from MIG-35 additional 40 SU-30MKI speculated will bring the numbers to minimum 100 extra jets in same time period at a lower cost. This will be in parallel to Rafale saga and say india only purchases 54 Rafales (worst case) then, MIG-35 numbers can be increased for IAF based on their requirements. If this is followed then, we will have 60+40+54(MIG-35, SU-30MKI and Rafale respectively) by 2025 without much loss in quality and also with lesser budget.. a win-win for MOD as saved money can be routed to say.. AMCA or FGFA project. Thus, IAF will be happy, Navy also happy and it bodes well with Make in India as well.
> 
> Please share your thoughts on this considering it as an alternate approach to fix the sqdn numbers.


 totally agreed 100% with that its the best way forward and keep working on AMCA & AURA


----------



## Picdelamirand-oil

Techy said:


> @PARIKRAMA @GURU DUTT and @others:
> 
> I have been following this whole saga since last week or so with very keen interest ( let me make myself clear in beginning that I don't belong to any aircraft lobby ). We have few things well known at this juncture:
> 
> IAF need Aircrafts very urgently as lot of Migs to be retired in next few years.
> Tejas MK2 is not gonna enter service in minimum 8 Years (Not before 2024 as per DRDO so, minimum by 2027).
> Tejas MK 1 or MK1A will not be produced more than 120 by 2025.
> SAAB is just doing a bluff they can't transfer meaningful techs as they are outsourcing it for themselves and also this will spell doom for homegrown LCA.
> F-16/ F-18s will come with lot of strings and not with sensitive techs which India needs. Also, it can't be used for nuke deliveries as earlier posted in this thread.
> IAF is bent on having western aircraft for higher availability and thus either Rafale or Typhoon fits the bill but both are very expensive thus resulting in whole MMRCA delays.
> So, what should be done to address depleting squadron numbers?
> 
> I would suggest to persist with Rafale for all its benefits but as this is taking its own time, explore another options as well.
> 
> Lets keep negotiations for 36 + 18 Rafales as well as make in India part but i meantime turn to Russia for second line (not USA for F series or SAAB).
> I read somewhere that Mig is willing to ensure 75-80% of average availability for MIG-35. Hence, similar to MIG-29 UPG lines, 60 MIG-35 planes can be ordered for Airforce and same line may be used for further Navy orders for IAC-1 and IAC-2 as well. This will guarantee minimum order of 120 MIG-35/MIG-29KUBs for that production line and hence will
> justify the cost of setting up that line with a Private player as well (same was hinted by MIG CEO).
> 
> 
> Apart from MIG-35 additional 40 SU-30MKI speculated will bring the numbers to minimum 100 extra jets in same time period at a lower cost. This will be in parallel to Rafale saga and say india only purchases 54 Rafales (worst case) then, MIG-35 numbers can be increased for IAF based on their requirements. If this is followed then, we will have 60+40+54(MIG-35, SU-30MKI and Rafale respectively) by 2025 without much loss in quality and also with lesser budget.. a win-win for MOD as saved money can be routed to say.. AMCA or FGFA project. Thus, IAF will be happy, Navy also happy and it bodes well with Make in India as well.
> 
> Please share your thoughts on this considering it as an alternate approach to fix the sqdn numbers.


I think the Mig-35 is one of the best Russian fighter to fit the bill of MMRCA.The problem could be on availability and life expectancy of Engine, EW suite compare to Rafale, survivability in deep penetration, nuclear role also but if ypu have 54 Rafale it's not critical.

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## PARIKRAMA

Techy said:


> @PARIKRAMA @GURU DUTT and @others:
> 
> I have been following this whole saga since last week or so with very keen interest ( let me make myself clear in beginning that I don't belong to any aircraft lobby ). We have few things well known at this juncture:
> 
> IAF need Aircrafts very urgently as lot of Migs to be retired in next few years.
> Tejas MK2 is not gonna enter service in minimum 8 Years (Not before 2024 as per DRDO so, minimum by 2027).
> Tejas MK 1 or MK1A will not be produced more than 120 by 2025.
> SAAB is just doing a bluff they can't transfer meaningful techs as they are outsourcing it for themselves and also this will spell doom for homegrown LCA.
> F-16/ F-18s will come with lot of strings and not with sensitive techs which India needs. Also, it can't be used for nuke deliveries as earlier posted in this thread.
> IAF is bent on having western aircraft for higher availability and thus either Rafale or Typhoon fits the bill but both are very expensive thus resulting in whole MMRCA delays.
> So, what should be done to address depleting squadron numbers?
> 
> I would suggest to persist with Rafale for all its benefits but as this is taking its own time, explore another options as well.
> 
> Lets keep negotiations for 36 + 18 Rafales as well as make in India part but i meantime turn to Russia for second line (not USA for F series or SAAB).
> I read somewhere that Mig is willing to ensure 75-80% of average availability for MIG-35. Hence, similar to MIG-29 UPG lines, 60 MIG-35 planes can be ordered for Airforce and same line may be used for further Navy orders for IAC-1 and IAC-2 as well. This will guarantee minimum order of 120 MIG-35/MIG-29KUBs for that production line and hence will
> justify the cost of setting up that line with a Private player as well (same was hinted by MIG CEO).
> 
> 
> Apart from MIG-35 additional 40 SU-30MKI speculated will bring the numbers to minimum 100 extra jets in same time period at a lower cost. This will be in parallel to Rafale saga and say india only purchases 54 Rafales (worst case) then, MIG-35 numbers can be increased for IAF based on their requirements. If this is followed then, we will have 60+40+54(MIG-35, SU-30MKI and Rafale respectively) by 2025 without much loss in quality and also with lesser budget.. a win-win for MOD as saved money can be routed to say.. AMCA or FGFA project. Thus, IAF will be happy, Navy also happy and it bodes well with Make in India as well.
> 
> Please share your thoughts on this considering it as an alternate approach to fix the sqdn numbers.



If i understand a similar view was shared by @randomradio who had quoted a very nominal figure for Russian jets owing to Ruble value depreciation.

I am sure DM Mp is fully aware of such technicalities... I presume there could be a chance that instead of say 60 Mig35s instead directly another 40-60 Jets of Su 30 in super configuration may directly come from Russia. That gives benefit of cost as well as time as the first deployed Super config MKIs provide the base for other 312 MKis (already produced and under production plan).

The issue in hand is Mig35/Su35 any of the induction will require additional doctrine changes... I suppose anything that Mig35/Su35 can do a similar capability may be in super config Su 30 MKI.. I have been hearing that same MKI engine in AL 31 family a new variant with longer engine life and lesser maintenance is being discussed. This actually reduces associated cost and other technical changes required for engine upgrades.. But i dont know if its accepted or a new engine of Su35 is being planned..

I do agree we will have a shortfall..and thats has to be addressed progressively.. About buying Mig 35s, i dont think we may agree to it.. Perhaps who knows we may in fact opt for PAKFA stage 1 present variant off the shelf 60 also in place of Mig35s to get us a pseudo 5th Gen.. 

What i am implying to say is Russian option is available.. Whther MOD takes that option or not, it has to be seen.. But i would put more money on MKI upgraded Super form directly from Russia instead of say Mig35s or Su35s.. Reason being MKI we know things better than others.. Mig35 we have to start from scratch again... Especially the strategies, tactics and doctrines which will take at least 5 years plus for pilots to master and mature for optimum mission efficiency..


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## GURU DUTT

PARIKRAMA said:


> If i understand a similar view was shared by @randomradio . Mig35 we have to start from scratch again... Especially the strategies, tactics and doctrines which will take at least 5 years plus for pilots to master and mature for optimum mission efficiency..


wrong i mean partly we are using upgraded Mig29 and Mig29K hence we have full knowledge of the basic fighter and its capabillities + have all the weapons and maintainence and training infra as fulkrums are in IAF for three decades now while we have flankers for 15 years at least so we save hell lot of money and instead of russian ZHUK-AE we can opt for EL2052 from day one on Mig35s with mix of russian and israeli weapons and some israeli and russian and indian sub systems


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## PARIKRAMA

GURU DUTT said:


> wrong i mean partly we are using upgraded Mig29 and Mig29K hence we have full knowledge of the basic fighter and its capabillities + have all the weapons and maintainence and training infra as fulkrums are in IAF for three decades now while we have flankers for 15 years at least so we save hell lot of money and instead of russian ZHUK-AE we can opt for EL2052 from day one on Mig35s with mix of russian and israeli weapons and some israeli and russian and indian sub systems



Are you sure we can replace Zhuk AE with 2052 from Day 1? Then the jet has to be happy with Israeli Missiles of Derby/Python combo.. Russian missile integration will require customization with either a universal bus or a in between converter.. But yes thats a possibility no doubt..

The earlier 29s and 29Ks are different birds from Mig 35s..

The Mig-29M2 is a new family with a new airframe structure... the Mig-29K2 is based on it, as is the basic Mig-29M2, and the advanced Mig-35S. Just the same as in the 1980s the Mig-29M was a new build aircraft that the original Mig-29K was based upon too.

The original Mig-29 had a separate structure, with an outer skin. The fuel tanks were separate tanks placed inside the structure under the skin.

The Mig-29M used wielded outer skin panels so separate internal fuel tanks were no longer necessary... the separate sections were sealed off and could be used for fuel or components without extra layers needed, so it was much lighter structurally. The new Mig-29M2s are further developments of the Mig-29M, with the new airframe shape that was standard between the single and twin seater.

In terms of role and missions
IAF 29s are primarily an Air superiority platform whom IAF has prominently used as a second line of air dominance after Su30 MKI. Its also used for for Defensive Counter Air missions and Fighter escorts missions

MiG-35 but are more "role-specific" with pronounced qualities for Area Interdiction/Deep Air Support and Defensive Counter Air (DCA) missions. This implies a better A2G mission capability than Mig 29s of first point

If you are comparing it with say Rafale and pitting them as Rafale replacements then we have to understand Rafale is a very efficient multirole aircraft showing an high level of efficiency in almost any modern operational task and with very strong points in SEAD missions and area control. Its referred inside IAF more as TASA (Tactical Air Strike Aircraft). 

Both Mig 35 and Rafale according to multiple experts show a very high level of survivability thanks to quality EW defensive suit, good low corner speed and enviable kinematical capabilities at transonic to mid-supersonic speed regimes.

Thus Mig35 will need new roles and will require new strategies and capability development.

Thats why its base of operations will be different from present infrastructure maintenance for 29s and so will be the weapons, munitions and its training+ maintenance..


Note:
As from Wikipedia
*Air interdiction* (AI), also known as *deep air support* (DAS), is the use of aircraft to attack tactical ground targets that are not in close proximity to friendly ground forces. It differs from close air support because it does not directly support ground operations and is not closely coordinated with ground units. Unlike strategic bombing, air interdiction is not meant as an independent air campaign, as its ultimate purpose is to aid ground operations rather than to defeat the enemy by air poweralone.

The purpose of air interdiction is to delay, disrupt, or destroy enemy forces or supplies en route to the battle area before they can engage friendly forces. Even at such degree, a distinction is often made between strategic and tactical interdiction; strategic operations are broad and long-term, while tactical operations are designed to affect events rapidly and in a localized area.
Air interdiction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## GURU DUTT

PARIKRAMA said:


> Are you sure we can replace Zhuk AE with 2052 from Day 1? Then the jet has to be happy with Israeli Missiles of Derby/Python combo.. Russian missile integration will require customization with either a universal bus or a in between converter.. But yes thats a possibility no doubt..
> 
> The earlier 29s and 29Ks are different birds from Mig 35s..
> 
> The Mig-29M2 is a new family with a new airframe structure... the Mig-29K2 is based on it, as is the basic Mig-29M2, and the advanced Mig-35S. Just the same as in the 1980s the Mig-29M was a new build aircraft that the original Mig-29K was based upon too.
> 
> The original Mig-29 had a separate structure, with an outer skin. The fuel tanks were separate tanks placed inside the structure under the skin.
> 
> The Mig-29M used wielded outer skin panels so separate internal fuel tanks were no longer necessary... the separate sections were sealed off and could be used for fuel or components without extra layers needed, so it was much lighter structurally. The new Mig-29M2s are further developments of the Mig-29M, with the new airframe shape that was standard between the single and twin seater.
> 
> In terms of role and missions
> IAF 29s are primarily an Air superiority platform whom IAF has prominently used as a second line of air dominance after Su30 MKI. Its also used for for Defensive Counter Air missions and Fighter escorts missions
> 
> MiG-35 but are more "role-specific" with pronounced qualities for Area Interdiction/Deep Air Support and Defensive Counter Air (DCA) missions. This implies a better A2G mission capability than Mig 29s of first point
> 
> If you are comparing it with say Rafale and pitting them as Rafale replacements then we have to understand Rafale is a very efficient multirole aircraft showing an high level of efficiency in almost any modern operational task and with very strong points in SEAD missions and area control. Its referred inside IAF more as TASA (Tactical Air Strike Aircraft).
> 
> Both Mig 35 and Rafale according to multiple experts show a very high level of survivability thanks to quality EW defensive suit, good low corner speed and enviable kinematical capabilities at transonic to mid-supersonic speed regimes.
> 
> Thus Mig35 will need new roles and will require new strategies and capability development.
> 
> Thats why its base of operations will be different from present infrastructure maintenance for 29s and so will be the weapons, munitions and its training+ maintenance..
> 
> 
> Note:
> As from Wikipedia
> *Air interdiction* (AI), also known as *deep air support* (DAS), is the use of aircraft to attack tactical ground targets that are not in close proximity to friendly ground forces. It differs from close air support because it does not directly support ground operations and is not closely coordinated with ground units. Unlike strategic bombing, air interdiction is not meant as an independent air campaign, as its ultimate purpose is to aid ground operations rather than to defeat the enemy by air poweralone.
> 
> The purpose of air interdiction is to delay, disrupt, or destroy enemy forces or supplies en route to the battle area before they can engage friendly forces. Even at such degree, a distinction is often made between strategic and tactical interdiction; strategic operations are broad and long-term, while tactical operations are designed to affect events rapidly and in a localized area.
> Air interdiction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


all that was a great read but the point is Mig35 is upgraded Mig29 with a modular cunstruction and electronicks , avionicks and some other features .... great 

rafale is new breed made specially with air to ground role as primarry ovjective with equal importence to self survivability 

now what IAF has ... well it does have jags for ground attack and Mig35s with better engines and "iff possible israeli AESA" from day one will surely cut the costs down and with external LITENING LDP and a better avionicks & sensor suite can get the job done cause point is we are not going to do ground attacks in tibet as chinese mainland is way out of reach to even MKIs so all air to ground SEAD & DEAD mostly will be done in pakistan for many reasons and thats the real trouble not china 

as china will never directlly attack india for pakistan but if it does then we like it or not will go for LRBMs , LRCMs and nuclear tipped at that from the word go and then it will be end of sub continent and much of china so will china still attack india your guess is as good as mine 

so in the end rafales or M35s or MKIs are for pakistan with a stand by role to stop chinese storm and for that you need deep air support or air interception and when it happens it will happen with J20s & J31s as the spear heads and only FGFA or AMCA or F35s will be able to hold it 

so for time bieng we should go for 36 rafale 60-90 Mig35s and 312 MKIs and rest should be LCA MK1A and replace them with FGFA & AMCA & AURA as and when they come


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## Techy

PARIKRAMA said:


> The issue in hand is Mig35/Su35 any of the induction will require additional doctrine changes... I suppose anything that Mig35/Su35 can do a similar capability may be in super config Su 30 MKI.. I have been hearing that same MKI engine in AL 31 family a new variant with longer engine life and lesser maintenance is being discussed. This actually reduces associated cost and other technical changes required for engine upgrades.. But i dont know if its accepted or a new engine of Su35 is being planned..
> 
> I do agree we will have a shortfall..and thats has to be addressed progressively.. About buying Mig 35s, i dont think we may agree to it.. Perhaps who knows we may in fact opt for PAKFA stage 1 present variant off the shelf 60 also in place of Mig35s to get us a pseudo 5th Gen..
> 
> What i am implying to say is Russian option is available.. Whther MOD takes that option or not, it has to be seen.. But i would put more money on MKI upgraded Super form directly from Russia instead of say Mig35s or Su35s.. Reason being MKI we know things better than others.. Mig35 we have to start from scratch again... Especially the strategies, tactics and doctrines which will take at least 5 years plus for pilots to master and mature for optimum mission efficiency..



@PARIKRAMA Bro, I was suggesting MIGs as Make in India.. not any off the shelf purchase. If we are going for off the shelf option then more capable Su-34/35 series comes to picture along with PAK-FA mentioned by you. *In case Rafale is taking more time* then instead of other options available, MIG-35 locally with a private vender will be better option due to its commonality with IAF and IN Mig-29s (IN Migs are more closer to it). It won't need extra infra costs as we already have them placed for MIG-29UPG/KUB planes along with its spare supply chain. Only effort will be needed to customize that with some Israeli goodies and improve existing spare supply chain to have 75-80% of minimum availability. This same line can be used for further IN orders for Vikrant class ships (IAC-1 and IAC-1a or whatever be the designation) as Rafale won't be used on STOBAR carriers. This way, we can groom one private player to compete with HAL assuming Rafale will be made with HAL only if Make in India part gets sorted out.

This will provide a low cost MRCA option to IAF and will be quicker to fill Sqdn numbers. I am not suggesting this at the cost of Rafale though  but to compliment it to address urgent requirements. I would have wished for LCA MK-2 any day but seems this will be delayed so, this option seems better to fill that void with Make in India. Russians will be more than willing to oblige given their current economy. Just a thought ......

(too bad.. android can be so irritating sometimes  sorry for any typos as its written by phone)

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## Ankit Kumar

Techy said:


> @PARIKRAMA Bro, I was suggesting MIGs as Make in India.. not any of the self purchase. If we are going for of the self option then more capable Su-34/35 series comes to picture along with PAK-FA mentioned by you. *In case Rafale is taking more time* then instead of other options available, MIG-35 locally with a private vender will be better option due to its commonality with IAF and IN Mig-29s (IN Migs are more closer to it). It won't need extra infra costs as we already have them placed for MIG-29UPG/KUB planes along with its spare supply chain. Only effort will be needed to customize that with some Israeli goodies and improve existing spare supply chain to have 75-80% of minimum availability. This same line can be used for further IN orders for Vikrant class ships (IAC-1 and IAC-1a or whatever be the designation) as Rafale won't be used on STOBAR carriers. This way, we can groom one private player to compete with HAL assuming Rafale will be made with HAL only if Make in India part gets sorted out.
> 
> This will provide a low cost MRCA option to IAF and will be quicker to fill Sqdn numbers. I am not suggesting this at the cost of Rafale though  but to compliment it to address urgent requirements. I would have wished for LCA MK-2 any day but seems this will be delayed so, this option seems better to fill that void with Make in India. Russians will be more than willing to oblige given their current economy. Just a thought ......



I came across some Eurofighter fans ( who had a soft corner for American jets too ) some months ago on a defence group in FB. Some of them were Indian and were highly against Mig35 for IAF. Most reasons were its capabilities in comparison to Rafale or Eurofighter. 
I would take that, but one thing they said was that its still not in service anywhere, this year TASS reported about the start of delivery of first Mig35s to RuAF. And IAF would not want to be a testbed. 

I am sure some of our people will share this concern too. 

Therefore, is it not better to go for 2 squadrons of Mig29s? 
It has some advantages 
1. The deal will be small, with less money involved . So less negotiations. 
2. Mig29 already in service and proved itself, no one can say against it. 

And then go for localised production of 5~6 squadrons of Mig35s in India. 
Till the Mig29s comes, RuAF would have started receiving the Mig35s. 

A second thing which I feel we have let go is the option of second hand mirages. We haven't put any effort. Say if we are able to procure ~2 squadrons , we will be replacing 50% of our Mig27 fleet. 

But as said.... lots of confusion. 
If the GOI wants, it can take simple routes...

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## dadeechi

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> I think the Mig-35 is one of the best Russian fighter to fit the bill of MMRCA.The problem could be on availability and life expectancy of Engine, EW suite compare to Rafale, survivability in deep penetration, nuclear role also but if ypu have 54 Rafale it's not critical.



Cost - There are cheaper options. US options are cheaper for both Unit and LCC ( if you take the cost of ammunitions and MLUs)

Arrest and Increase the falling numbers - There are other fighters which can be inducted faster (US can deliver much faster than France)

Strategic/Nuclear delivery - There are Russian options apart from Missiles

Reliability/Availability - US Options can alleviate that

The biggest reasons for picking RAFALEs for MMRCA are

1) Develop MIC in India. This is presumably dead with the no TOT/MII component news that we hear (at least that's the official line)

2) Capability - No doubt it is a capable fighter but at what cost? How many F-16s or SU-35s or J-20s fighters can a RAFALE take on?

Unless this deal has huge MII component, this deal is a huge scam in the making.


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## PARIKRAMA

@Techy 
MII for 60 jets is too low number.. Bcz the line will take 3 years for production to start and productivity per year even if its between 16-20 jets a year will need line to run at least 7 years implying a minimum 110+ orders 

Effectively the cost of producing a Mig 35 in India will be lot bit more than in Russia.. Of course, when you add more components like Israeli and French the price would go up..

Its an option no doubt but will need deeper thought process..

Supposedly a key question, whom will Russia like to Partner - HAL or a pvt company? Russia will always prefer HAL btw.. In their line of thinking they have a deep understanding with working with HAL for so long time.

If you see discussions, its a bit slow when we talk about MII so such a decision itself will take around 2 years minimum to arrive at tangible position of can do or cannot do types.. Implying the first Mig35 will caome not sooner than minimum of 5+ years from MII part... And god forbid, if there is any issue with other deals in our relationship with Russia it will get delayed more, then Mig 35 comes out of our MII plant closer to 6-7 years,,

Thats the kind of associated risk when we deal with a Russian jet under MII

@Ankit Kumar 
i was saying a similar thing to techy above.

A localised production has a risk element like what you saw in last december when everything got linked together.. Surely you understand this solution will lead to even more less bargaining scope with our hand and perhaps more strong fisted response form Russia

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## Taygibay

Comment as requested by friend :



PARIKRAMA said:


> UAEAF is inclined to procure—just like India—the Rafale MMRCAs & Scorpene SSKs as well & therefore Indian human resource assistance becomes imperative.



I stopped reading after that. The word therefore in this sentence makes no sense ...
except in the mind of an overly nationalist person.

*Full Definition of therefore*
1a : for that reason : consequently b : because of that c : on that ground

There is no causal link whatsoever between the 2 deals. India has not signed for Rafale yet.
It may not ever as wished by so many here. To imply it has a role in Rafale sales when it can't
conclude its own buy is preposterous. The planes they want are not the same by a huge margin.

For instance, the UAE had asked for a 9T M-88. How is a country that cannot make its own engine
going to help on that front? What added value would come out of a Bharati local line?

The inability to put anything in perspective without including your dreams of grandeur is flagrant!
Repeat after me : reality is a harsh mistress! Or in hyper-nationalist terms : a harsh imaginary one!

Fact : Dassault makes the Rafale and India makes the Tejas.
Fact : The UAE are looking for a bit more than what LCA is.

THEREFORE ... the UAE is not linked to Rafale in India in any way.

Good day to all lucid folks and better than good luck to the rest, Tay.

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## PARIKRAMA

Taygibay said:


> Comment as requested by friend :
> 
> 
> 
> I stopped reading after that. The word therefore in this sentence makes no sense ...
> except in the mind of an overly nationalist person.
> 
> *Full Definition of therefore*
> 1a : for that reason : consequently b : because of that c : on that ground
> 
> There is no causal link whatsoever between the 2 deals. India has not signed for Rafale yet.
> It may not ever as wished by so many here. To imply it has a role in Rafale sales when it can't
> conclude its own buy is preposterous. The planes they want are not the same by a huge margin.
> 
> For instance, the UAE had asked for a 9T M-88. How is a country that cannot make its own engine
> going to help on that front? What added value would come out of a Bharati local line?
> 
> The inability to put anything in perspective without including your dreams of grandeur is flagrant!
> Repeat after me : reality is a harsh mistress! Or in hyper-nationalist terms : a harsh imaginary one!
> 
> Fact : Dassault makes the Rafale and India makes the Tejas.
> Fact : The UAE are looking for a bit more than what LCA is.
> 
> THEREFORE ... the UAE is not linked to Rafale in India in any way.
> 
> Good day to all lucid folks and better than good luck to the rest, Tay.



Ok say Tay, if India also agrees for the similar customization same like UAE and says lets share costs and let me produce your required Rafales from my plant in India which DA will be setting up, then what you say..

An example is the M88 Engine itself.. Instead of say 83-85Kn we agree for 89-90Kn one which UAE wants..

Is that a possibility? Sharing customization cost for few products which helps lower cost both sides..

or at least the customization cost for Safran part..Jets produced anywhere

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## Techy

PARIKRAMA said:


> MII for 60 jets is too low number.. Bcz the line will take 3 years for production to start and productivity per year even if its between 16-20 jets a year will need line to run at least 7 years implying a minimum 110+ orders
> 
> Effectively the cost of producing a Mig 35 in India will be lot bit more than in Russia.. Of course, when you add more components like Israeli and French the price would go up..
> 
> Its an option no doubt but will need deeper thought process..


I was proposing orders of minimum 100 Jets under MII as highlighted below, to be delivered by 2024 time-frame (if there is any second line other than Rafale as Gripen or any Teen Series won't be of any benefit) and utilized by both IAF and IN. This would be much better only if Rafale is going to be restricted in numbers and IAF being compelled to use this line till 5th Gen comes into play (thus it will attract a private player due to bigger numbers 110+ in total. IAF: 60+ and IN minimum 4 sqdn of MIG-29s for STOBAR IACs).


Techy said:


> I read somewhere that Mig is willing to ensure 75-80% of average availability for MIG-35. Hence, similar to MIG-29 UPG lines,* 60 MIG-35 planes can be ordered for Airforce and same production line may be used for further Navy orders for IAC-1 and IAC-2 (1A) as well. This will guarantee minimum order of 120 MIG-35/MIG-29KUBs for that production line and hence will justify the cost of setting up that line with a Private player* as well (same was hinted by MIG CEO).



Yes, cost would be more than the cost in Russia but it will play its part in developing domestic Aviation industry as well. The comments from MIG CEO indicated that they were open to private partner though but still there is a chance that they may play safe and go with HAL.

Too much confusion going on now a days so one thing is sure that some bigger announcement by MoD is due in near future.

*Note*: Integrating Israeli goodies was to attract more IAF interest as they love those stuffs. I still vouch for Rafale though as its more all-round plateform .. this arguement is just for quelling SAAB/Boeing/LM lobby who are pitching their product for faster induction pointing to Tejas MK2 delays/MK1 low rate of production and higher Rafale costs.

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## PARIKRAMA

Techy said:


> I was proposing orders of minimum 100 Jets under MII as highlighted below, to be delivered by 2024 time-frame (if there is any second line other than Rafale as Gripen or any Teen Series won't be of any benefit) and utilized by both IAF and IN. This would be much better only if Rafale is going to be restricted in numbers and IAF being compelled to use this line till 5th Gen comes into play (thus it will attract a private player due to bigger numbers 110+ in total. IAF: 60+ and IN minimum 4 sqdn of MIG-29s for STOBAR IACs).
> 
> 
> Yes, cost would be more than the cost in Russia but it will play its part in developing domestic Aviation industry as well. The comments from MIG CEO indicated that they were open to private partner though but still there is a chance that they may play safe and go with HAL.
> 
> Too much confusion going on now a days so one thing is sure that some bigger announcement by MoD is due in near future.
> 
> *Note*: Integrating Israeli goodies was to attract more IAF interest as they love those stuffs. I still vouch for Rafale though as its more all-round plateform .. this arguement is just for quelling SAAB/Boeing/LM lobby who are pitching their product for faster induction pointing to Tejas MK2 delays/MK1 low rate of production and higher Rafale costs.




My bad bro, i thought only from IAF perspective and always considered IN needs to be over and above as added goods for benefit case..

Yes the production issues of LCA program and future uncertain which even i have said what happened ina meeting as told by sources does point to everyone dancing for a scoop of the big jet market...

I still have a feeling DM is bluffing and is using carrot and stick policy.. But then who knows..

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## Armani

@PARIKRAMA 

I've searched for Gessler's profile on PDF and it seems he is banned. I don't know if the bad is permanent or temporary.

About the UAE deal, I agree it would make sense if that aspect is tied in to the present MMRCA negotiations.

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## Taygibay

PARIKRAMA said:


> Is that a possibility? Sharing customization cost for few products which helps lower cost both sides..



Of course! *IF* the 2 selections were identical, _*IF*_ India had a line, _*IF*_ ...
We're not close to the above though.

At some point, one has to be blunt. India adds no value to the Rafale!
It could *IF* it signed for MII Rafales later on. But that's 1 more pesky *IF*!

Sadly, no amount of *IF*s makes up reality. In fact, relying on *IF*s is the best way to miss on what *IS*.

At present, the numbers are 54 incl. options vs 60 +-. Relying on this,
the common line should be in Abu Dhabi and Delhi buying from them?

I'm not attacking India in saying so, just questioning recurrent delusions.
Be(know)ing what you are is a prerequisite to being more than you can be.

If Usain Bolt had never trained because he believed himself a 5 second
100M runner, we'd never have witnessed a below 9.6 s dash!
If you want to shoot for the stars, you better have both feet firmly planted
or parallax is gonna send your shot and dreams so widely off course that
you'll reach infinity's remotest corners before you do your goals.

Can it happen? It could ... but eating out of _can_s is a surefire way to miss
out on a real meal.

Once India stops acting like it can and does what it really could, I'm sure
we'll discover it actually can. The former can is beans, the latter caviar!

Discussions about India selling Rafales when it can't even buy them are ...
childish dreams upon a far away star, sorry, Tay.

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> One more theory coming out now...
> 
> Seems UAE 60 jets deal and Indian Rafale deals are connected.
> 
> _*UAEAF is inclined to procure—just like India—the Rafale MMRCAs & Scorpene SSKs as well & therefore Indian human resource assistance becomes imperative. Furthermore, if a an Indian private-sector company teams up with its UAE counterpart (which has access to the UAE’s sovereign wealth investment funds) to assemble & extend through-life product-support for the Rafale fleets of both the IAF & UAEAF, then this becomes a win-win situation from a financial standpoint. This is what has been going on behind-the-scenes & that’s why negotiations have been protractive. In the coming months all this will come to light, rest assured.*_
> 
> *- Prasun K Sengupta*



I think he's talking about sharing support infrastructure. I'm pretty sure the UAE Rafales will be built in France. We can aim to build the Saudi deal for 72 instead.

All export jets are pretty much the same standard as the ADLA's version. UAE seems to have chosen the 8.3 ton version, the same as India.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> I think he's talking about sharing support infrastructure. I'm pretty sure the UAE Rafales will be built in France. We can aim to build the Saudi deal for 72 instead.
> 
> All export jets are pretty much the same standard as the ADLA's version. UAE seems to have chosen the 8.3 ton version, the same as India.



Thats what i pointed later bcz at first i thought perhaps since the engine may take time say another 2 years whichever way we see, the birds can be produced either at Merignac or may be in India.. But yes thats a stronger possibility that its directly from Merignac line.

Interestingly, if UAE and India both have agreed for 83-85 Kn or 8.3-8.5T engine , wont this reduce cost of customizations as both sides could share it..

Also what are the chances UAE still thinking about the 9T ones and India also thinking for 9T ones implying 89-90Kn thrust..
We know last time they did ask for 9T ones..


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## randomradio

GURU DUTT said:


> so for time bieng we should go for 36 rafale



Even PAF AM Shaheed Latif pointed out the 36 Rafales are merely the first tranche.

Don't worry about the Rafales, all 126 are coming and more. Just have trust in the govt that we managed to get a good deal.

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## PARIKRAMA

- Azaad - said:


> I happened to see a telecast on the Rafale acquisition hosted by an English news channel , shortly after P.M.Modi's trip to France.The panelists were ACM - Tipnis , BHARAT Karnad , Shishir Gupta & another participant whose name I forget.
> 
> What came through very clearly , was the vehemence with which ACM Tipnis was opposed to inducting any more FA ( Fighter Aircrafts ) from Russia.
> 
> Apparently, the Russians shared pretty much all the info abt Su 30 MKI with the Chinese apart from selling them the Su 30 MKK ,going against their word given to the then GoI , which signed the agreement ( I believe it was the UF govt , with Mulayam YADAV as the DM under the premiership of P.M Gujral ) & the IAF .To add to that were the Admiral Goshkov cost over runs & the T- 90 performance imbroglio .You can read this along with @Milispec posts on how the specifications on the MMRCA tender were tweaked to put the aircrafts manufacturered by Russia at a disadvantage. I also recall Karnad being silent when confronted with the fact that the Su 30 MKK was sold to the Chinese against sovereign guarantees not uo do do by the Russians. I remember Karnad coming up with the lame excuse that the Yeltsin era was that of tremendous economic depravation for the Russians & the Russia of then should not be confused with the Russia of now.
> 
> FGFA was being pursued more by the MoD than by the IAF.All the subsequent happenings duly reported in the media then & now seems to confirm the unhappiness with the FGFA programme by the IAF.I believe , it will be pursued , nevertheless, given the fact that we lack choices & for maintaining our strategic relationship with the Russians with the caveat that the Russians should come up with the technological inputs which satisfy the IAF .
> 
> 
> The Rafale deal would be concluded with a final inventory in excess of 300 FA with the IAF & the IN as @Abingdonboy & @PARIKRAMA have been arguing in almost every thread on the Rafale .Hats off to both of them for their insights , off the record sippets of info & their technical prowess in proving why Rafale is the right choice for the IAF the high cost notwithstanding. One may also see a deepening of Indo French strategic ties with future collaboration with Dassault in the AMCA project along with the Israelis .
> 
> Which brings us to the LCA - Mk 2 & the Gripen , F 16 / F 18 issue.I think it's no longer a matter of speculation that we'd see the FOC approved LCA - Mk 2 not earlier than 2024 / 25 timelines .Which is the reason for the current dilemma that the DM faces given the depleting nos of the IAF .
> 
> I believe the Gripen will be ruled out as they don't being anything new to the table either in the form of technology or anything else .Given that the tech specs of the Gripen NG is more or less similar to the LCA - Mk 2 , there seems no logical reason why would the MoD or the IAF choose to go with it.After all the Gripen NG is expected to be ready by 2019 & the LCA - Mk 2 by 2025. There is not much of a time difference to make a case for acquisition of the Gripen .
> 
> Which brings us to the F16 / F18 FA & the US .Given that the MoD has already approved purchase of the 40 Super Sukhois from Russia ( whether this was part of an earlier plan or whether this is to do with bolstering the nos of the ever rapidly depleting inventory of FA with the IAF is not clear as of now ) , it should be enough to mollify the Russians )
> 
> I believe we may see the acquisition of either the F 16 or the F 18 ( some 100 odd aircrafts ) to make up the shortfall of FA in the IAF given that the LCA - Mk 2 will arrive only towards the end of the 2030's . This would be fine for two reasons .Demonstration of our willingness to develop & deepen strategic ties with the US & to reassure the US that they will have a stake in India's huge defence pie too given their support to us on various issues fora( Indo US civil N Co operation , Facilitating our entry to the NSG , the Wassenaar Group , MTCR , etc & helping our effort to beciming a permanent member of the UNSC .A certain amount of payback is called for & is expected ) & the gradual convergence of Indo US strategic ties given the rise of China .
> 
> This collaboration of which MII is going to be a part will also be a test case by both parties to see how such a deepening strategic engagement pans out .From India's POV , It's a low risk effort as whichever FA is chosen ( they are both formidable as well as tried & tested platforms ) they will not impinge too much on our strategic calculations & our defence operations given the US penchant for dictating their allies policy & use of defence equipment ( BCA , CISMOA , etc . as well as prohibition of N arming FA of US origin as well as their use against a nation considered friendly by the US) . The general maintenance & availability of spares to mitigate against US disapproval in case such a scenario arises needs to be factored it before such a decision is taken.
> 
> The downside is that the LCA - MK2 , as & when it comes will be inducted in reduced nos.



A very good analysis bro.. 

Yes the scope of another fighter seems to be here owing to the LCA (any version) giving a unique opportunity to fill in the gaps.. Yes a US jet does provide us back with Carrot and stick policy something US has been doing with us for good time..

So from strategic perspective thats a possibility no doubt.. But then again both teens failed MMRCA evaluation.. So will the newer versions test in Indian conditions to prove their mettle.. Or its a leap of faith based on governments trust on each other..

In all where will our own LCA program head.. as many feel its an unwanted baby, will it remain like that only..


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## Ankit Kumar

Meanwhile 3 super sexy things together lol 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/701712054244216833

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/701713618061107200


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## randomradio

- Azaad - said:


> I also recall Karnad being silent when confronted with the fact that the Su 30 MKK was sold to the Chinese against sovereign guarantees not uo do do by the Russians.



If I was asked that question, I would have said the MKK is an entirely different aircraft altogether. It has nothing to do with the MKI program. The manufacturer of the two aircraft are different. Karnad has no clue about aircraft.



> FGFA was being pursued more by the MoD than by the IAF.All the subsequent happenings duly reported in the media then & now seems to confirm the unhappiness with the FGFA programme by the IAF.I believe , it will be pursued , nevertheless, given the fact that we lack choices & for maintaining our strategic relationship with the Russians with the caveat that the Russians should come up with the technological inputs which satisfy the IAF .



The IAF is whole hog behind the FGFA. But they are more concerned with immediate necessity. FGFA is an aircraft meant for the post 2025 timeframe.



> I believe the Gripen will be ruled out...



You may be in for a surprise.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Thats what i pointed later bcz at first i thought perhaps since the engine may take time say another 2 years whichever way we see, the birds can be produced either at Merignac or may be in India.. But yes thats a stronger possibility that its directly from Merignac line.
> 
> Interestingly, if UAE and India both have agreed for 83-85 Kn or 8.3-8.5T engine , wont this reduce cost of customizations as both sides could share it..
> 
> Also what are the chances UAE still thinking about the 9T ones and India also thinking for 9T ones implying 89-90Kn thrust..
> We know last time they did ask for 9T ones..



It's not possible to link the UAE deal with the Indian deal. Only future cooperation cannot be ruled out. All immediate cooperation will be with France only because the contract is being negotiated based on French production costs. It is possible that UAE is waiting for India to sign the deal first so they can have some extra leverage in terms of costs. The Indian contract may only come with a 10% profit margin while the UAE contract may come with a 30% margin, they may use the Indian contract to negotiate for further reduction. Overall, there should be very little initial contact between the two countries.

Of course, there is a chance UAE may want Indian weapons and avionics on the Rafale, but that we will see in time.

I doubt there is a 90KN engine available.

@Taygibay, Trappier has said on record that French subcontractors find the Rafale project less desirable compared to Falcon in terms of profits. So it is possible that, except for the 11 Rafales per year that France needs, all non-French spares and support can be moved to India. If the Indian line is more profitable, then most or all of the Rafale production for exports can be moved to India as well.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> Also what are the chances UAE still thinking about the 9T ones and India also thinking for 9T ones implying 89-90Kn thrust..
> We know last time they did ask for 9T ones..


9 t isn't an interesting engine compare to 8.3 t. Because it needs a re-design of air intakes and this imply:

More Drag
Less Srealth
Upgrade of FCS
Going back to anechoïd chamber to make again all tests for SPECTRA with all combination of weapons load

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> @Taygibay, Trappier has said on record that French subcontractors find the Rafale project less desirable compared to Falcon in terms of profits. So it is possible that, except for the 11 Rafales per year that France needs, all non-French spares and support can be moved to India. If the Indian line is more profitable, then most or all of the Rafale production for exports can be moved to India as well.



Don't get offended _random_ mate but that's yet another case of looking at the world
through India colored glasses.
Trappier made that comment to push for Rafale numbers in French services to go
up to at least the reduced 225 goal beyond the 180 currently assured.
It is a Franco-French argument that in no way relates to India.

Dassault is both privately owned and government supported through Airbus shares.
What's more, Dassault Group GIMD is the parent corp of Dassault Aviation but also
of the Dassault Systems division and a couple more. It's 56% family owned and
profitable. They even own newspapers ... often used to hand messages out to the powers that be.

What he meant is to put pressure on the French state by leveraging the group's ability
to survive without fighters production. One needs to understand that his company is
a strategic asset however. If it stopped producing combat jets, France would have to
buy foreign. Gone would be the independence in foreign policy it currently enjoys.
It won't happen. Besides, you forgot the exports that add to the existing line output.
Your point made sense before Egypt and Qatar signed. India waited to long ... once more
for this view of yours to apply!

To reverse your question, since LCA is presently earmarked for about a hundred jets,
would you agree to HAL being sold if a bigger order for Tejas came along, if say South
Africa signed for 125 of them? No? Then neither will we! That simple!

Great day to you, Tay.

P.S.
Add a secondary question : Would buyers trust HAL over Dassault quality wise?
The answers might not be pleasant! That question is IMHoO better left unasked.

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## randomradio

- Azaad - said:


> I'm not technically competent to comment on it I'm an amateur with a deep interest in defence & strategic affairs.I've merely reported on what I've come across.I believe the complaint was two fold - the fact that the Russians sold a similar FA in spite of sovereign guarantees not to do so as well as sharing info on the Su 30 MKI ( they were privy to sensitive info during the integration of Israeli & French gadgets to the Su 30MKI )



The Su-30MKK is a strike aircraft, it has a completely different airframe and avionics. The MKI is an air superiority aircraft, completely different airframe and avionics.

The MKK is made by KNAAPO, the engine by Salyut. The MKI is made by Irkut, engine by Saturn. Both are entirely different aircraft made by entirely different companies.

Believe it or not, the Russians are highly protective of their proprietary information. And the MKI program is very important for the Russian military, they are buying over 160 of them. So the MKI program is a state secret. They have not purchased any of the MKK for their own air force since it's an export grade aircraft.

Apart from Russia and India, only Algeria and Malaysia have access to the MKI.



> I'm aware of it @ timelines of the FGFA. The IAF's is an unhappy lot with the Russians in general & the FGFA in particular but are also aware they don't have much of a choice .I can't encapsulate everything that ACM Tipnis said except the essence , which I've distilled & conveyed here.



The IAF's problems with Russia has been the Indian bureaucracy. The same babudom comes into play with western fighters also. So they are trying to change the root cause of the problem. Rest assured, the FGFA deal will be better negotiated than the MKI deal.

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## SirHatesALot

Go with the Russians they know how to close a deal.


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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Don't get offended _random_ mate but that's yet another case of looking at the world
> through India colored glasses.
> Trappier made that comment to push for Rafale numbers in French services to go
> up to at least the reduced 225 goal beyond the 180 currently assured.
> It is a Franco-French argument that in no way relates to India.



I have taken no offense over anything, don't worry. I was adding to potential business India can offer.



> To reverse your question, since LCA is presently earmarked for about a hundred jets,
> would you agree to HAL being sold if a bigger order for Tejas came along, if say South
> Africa signed for 125 of them? No? Then neither will we! That simple!



Nobody is selling Dassault or HAL.



> P.S.
> Add a secondary question : Would buyers trust HAL over Dassault quality wise?
> The answers might not be pleasant! That question is IMHoO better left unasked.



HAL won't manufacture Rafales in India, Dassault will, with an Indian private sector partner. So quality won't be compromised since Dassault will run the program in India and have executive control. No different from Airbus production in China.

Dassault want to open a Falcon production line in India, so the Rafale line will be an extension of that.
RIL-Dassault to make business jets
..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: Rafale Partners with Reliance


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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> Nobody is selling Dassault or HAL.



Supposing a line in India to make Rafales for export is tantamount to a sale of its milavia sector ATM.



randomradio said:


> No different from Airbus production in China.


 Very different! Mil vs civilian. A320s don't bomb anyone, not even Daesh! 



randomradio said:


> Dassault want to open a Falcon production line in India, so the Rafale line will be an extension of that.



Wow! I'm sorry to say so but that is an inept view.
If it was true, buying a couple more SuperJets than other clients would get you the T-50 prod line.
It won't happen!

Good day nonetheless, Tay.


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## randomradio

All those who are supporting Mig-35 for MII, also remember that RuAF is expected to place first orders only around 2018. So the aircraft program is for a post-2020 period. After that it will take a few years for them to make the aircraft operational.

In fact, except for Rafale, all other aircraft, F-16, SH, Mig-35, Gripen-NG and EFT have to undergo a significant period of development before it is ready for IAF specifications.

The only upside is the MII program for each of the aircraft will be delayed due to negotiations and the first aircraft can be expected only after 2021-22. 2 years to negotiate, 3 years to develop and flight test new tech and simultaneously build production facilities, and about 1-2 years for first aircraft to be delivered.

Out of all those aircraft, only Gripen NG is ahead in the development curve since first flight is expected this year. First aircraft is expected after 2018. So the potential for delays is the least with NG.



Taygibay said:


> Supposing a line in India to make Rafales for export is tantamount to a sale of its milavia sector ATM.



Why? It is no different from Apple making their phones in China. Apple/Dassault controls the technology and IP. Profits can potentially be greater in India. French Dassault can manufacture more Falcons in France.



> Very different! Mil vs civilian. A320s don't bomb anyone, not even Daesh!



The purpose is different but companies are the same.



> Wow! I'm sorry to say so but that is an inept view.
> If it was true, buying a couple more SuperJets than other clients would get you the T-50 prod line.
> It won't happen!



This isn't just my opinion. Picdel shares the same. And according to Picdel, any excess manpower from Rafale lines can be converted to Falcon lines after production is complete.

And I'm not sure if you have read enough about it, but Dassault plans to partner with Reliance for making the Rafales in India.


> India's largest-ever military deal is likely to bring in big business for the private sector with the French side looking to set up a production centre for the Rafale fighter aircraft as well as a low-cost executive jet in India, besides sharing vital aircraft technology for the indigenous Tejas project.
> 
> Officials familiar with the project have told ET that major partners for this 'Make in India' project are currently being identified by the French side and are likely to include Anil Ambani's Reliance Defence Systems, Noida-based Samtel and Bharat Electronics. These officials, both Indian and French, spoke on the condition they not be identified.
> 
> Read more at:
> In boost for 'Make in India', Dassault may manufacture Rafale fighter aircraft in India - The Economic Times


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## Ankit Kumar

randomradio said:


> All those who are supporting Mig-35 for MII, also remember that RuAF is expected to place first orders only around 2018. So the aircraft program is for a post-2020 period. After that it will take a few years for them to make the aircraft operational.
> 
> In fact, except for Rafale, all other aircraft, F-16, SH, Mig-35, Gripen-NG and EFT have to undergo a significant period of development before it is ready for IAF specifications.
> 
> The only upside is the MII program for each of the aircraft will be delayed due to negotiations and the first aircraft can be expected only after 2021-22. 2 years to negotiate, 3 years to develop and flight test new tech and simultaneously build production facilities, and about 1-2 years for first aircraft to be delivered.
> 
> Out of all those aircraft, only Gripen NG is ahead in the development curve since first flight is expected this year. First aircraft is expected after 2018. So the potential for delays is the least with NG.
> 
> 
> 
> Why? It is no different from Apple making their phones in China. Apple/Dassault controls the technology and IP. Profits can potentially be greater in India. French Dassault can manufacture more Falcons in France.
> 
> 
> 
> The purpose is different but companies are the same.
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't just my opinion. Picdel shares the same. And according to Picdel, any excess manpower from Rafale lines can be converted to Falcon lines after production is complete.
> 
> And I'm not sure if you have read enough about it, but Dassault plans to partner with Reliance for making the Rafales in India.



MiG To Sign MiG-35 Fighter Contract With Russian Defense Ministry

I do not agree that you are preferring a paper plane as of now over an aircraft which has over a dozen airframe built. 

And I would prefer a 60 million dollar Mig35 any day over an assembly of Gripen NG at 200 million dollars with foreign parts.


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## randomradio

Ankit Kumar said:


> MiG To Sign MiG-35 Fighter Contract With Russian Defense Ministry
> 
> I do not agree that you are preferring a paper plane as of now over an aircraft which has over a dozen airframe built.



Those are not production version. Those are for state trials. The main order will come only around 2018. The Gripen NG isn't exactly a paper plane. It is a modification of the Demo program and that in turn is based on the two seat version.



> And I would prefer a 60 million dollar Mig35 any day over an assembly of Gripen NG at 200 million dollars with foreign parts.



I don't think you've heard the news, the option if for one or two additional aircraft. This is apart from Rafale. So that one or two aircraft can be both Gripen and Mig-35.

Mig-35 is about 5 times cheaper than what you have quoted. Gripen's production costs are obviously more expensive, but LCC costs will be much lower. I mean, the Brazilian contract was for 150M/aircraft and this included 100% offsets, ToT, industrial production, development of Gripen F etc. I believe the Swiss Gripen costs were $100M lower than Rafale's too, and that's only for 22 aircraft. It could get even more cheap if we include a large order and production of the engine in India.

In fact, we can afford the Mig-35 line and Gripen line together, both are extremely cheap now. These two lines become impossible if we go for F-16 or SH.

All I am saying is the Mig-35 is going to take much longer than what people think. It will take many years for full rate production to start.

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> Picdel shares the same. And according to Picdel, any excess manpower from Rafale lines can be converted to Falcon lines after production is complete.



I cannot and will not speak for him but I highly doubt that Pic shares your view
that Dassault wants to transfer all Falcon activity to India. Most of the Falcon
business comes from America and the balance between the 2 is not what you think :
Dassault Falcon Sales, Deliveries Drop in 2015 | Business Aviation News: Aviation International News

I have no problem with the permeability of design and production units/lines and
feel confident that I understand it at least as well as you do if not at Pic's level.
In fact, at the size of Dassault, the 2 activity sectors are highly complementary &
support each other to the point that without either one, Dassault would be dead.
Thus, neither is for sale at the moment!



randomradio said:


> And I'm not sure if you have read enough about it, but Dassault plans to partner with Reliance for making the Rafales in India.





Now, that was so patronizing that it qualifies for a same tone answer!
I defended Dassault's choice of Reliance as partner from the onset ...
and you weren't there at all back then, early in 2012! Or did I miss you?

So here :

Arms importations ( all ) :

France 20 M

India 4,243 M



Arms exportations ( major systems ) :

France 1,978 B

India 55 M

As per SIPRI tables & 2015 will show worst by far!

Wake me up when you have an arms industry worth talking about, something close to ours!
I'm done comparing reality with pipe dreams. 

I should have stuck to my intention not to reply to this lalaland thread, my bad!
So *note to PariK and Abingdon, *GL guys but forget the tags here from now on, Tay.

P.S. And to think that you are one of the calm reasonable ones ...

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> I cannot and will not speak for him but I highly doubt that Pic shares your view
> that Dassault wants to transfer all Falcon activity to India. Most of the Falcon
> business comes from America and the balance between the 2 is not what you think :tion International News
> 
> I have no problem with the permeability of design and production units/lines and
> feel confident that I understand it at least as well as you do if not at Pic's level.
> In fact, at the size of Dassault, the 2 activity sectors are highly complementary &
> support each other to the point that without either one, Dassault would be dead.
> Thus, neither is for sale at the moment!



Huh? No. No. Not all of Falcon. The Falcon variant for MII is just one maybe two types in order to tap the Indian market. It can also avoid custom taxes.

Regardless, the program has already achieved ministry clearance.




> Now, that was so patronizing that it qualifies for a same tone answer!





> I defended Dassault's choice of Reliance as partner from the onset ...
> and you weren't there at all back then, early in 2012! Or did I miss you?
> 
> So here :
> 
> Arms importations ( all ) :
> 
> France 20 M
> 
> India 4,243 M
> 
> 
> 
> Arms exportations ( major systems ) :
> 
> France 1,978 B
> 
> India 55 M
> 
> As per SIPRI tables & 2015 will show worst by far!
> 
> Wake me up when you have an arms industry worth talking about, something close to ours!
> I'm done comparing reality with pipe dreams.
> 
> I should have stuck to my intention not to reply to this lalaland thread, my bad!
> So *note to PariK and Abingdon, *GL guys but forget the tags here from now on, Tay.
> 
> P.S. And to think that you are one of the calm reasonable ones ...



I think you are unable to understand my posts.

Actually, I have no idea what you are trying to say here.


----------



## Piper

Taygibay said:


> I cannot and will not speak for him but I highly doubt that Pic shares your view
> that Dassault wants to transfer all Falcon activity to India. Most of the Falcon
> business comes from America and the balance between the 2 is not what you think :
> Dassault Falcon Sales, Deliveries Drop in 2015 | Business Aviation News: Aviation International News
> 
> I have no problem with the permeability of design and production units/lines and
> feel confident that I understand it at least as well as you do if not at Pic's level.
> In fact, at the size of Dassault, the 2 activity sectors are highly complementary &
> support each other to the point that without either one, Dassault would be dead.
> Thus, neither is for sale at the moment!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, that was so patronizing that it qualifies for a same tone answer!
> I defended Dassault's choice of Reliance as partner from the onset ...
> and you weren't there at all back then, early in 2012! Or did I miss you?
> 
> So here :
> 
> Arms importations ( all ) :
> 
> France 20 M
> 
> India 4,243 M
> 
> 
> 
> Arms exportations ( major systems ) :
> 
> France 1,978 B
> 
> India 55 M
> 
> As per SIPRI tables & 2015 will show worst by far!
> 
> Wake me up when you have an arms industry worth talking about, something close to ours!
> I'm done comparing reality with pipe dreams.
> 
> I should have stuck to my intention not to reply to this lalaland thread, my bad!
> So *note to PariK and Abingdon, *GL guys but forget the tags here from now on, Tay.
> 
> P.S. And to think that you are one of the calm reasonable ones ...



Your exit from this was a forgone conclusion, after-all there is only so much indulgence for the theatre of absurd.

I am afraid folks but India has to go about it developing it's MII the hard way. Every country with a solitary exception of Israel has gotten around to it through sheer grit, guile and determination without any sugar daddies to speak of. Even Israel in current times is a paragon of innovation.

I hate to ride on someone else's coat-tails but in this case Taygibay is correct - May be there was a time when France would have considered establishing a production line in India but that was before the deal with Arabs. Prospective order of 36+18 which what is being touted as reality is unlikely to be an incentive enough for French to part with their crown jewels and as akin to cannibalization. The unrealistic numbers of 120/190/240 etc are no better than fan-boy fantasies.

What is possible though is that the shortfall is made up with line production of low cost fighters currently on offer to India and are proportionate to the fighters being replaced like the Mig variants.

It was indeed a revelation to me when someone on this thread posted that the LCC costs of the latest blocks are Hornets are not that far off from Rafales. In such a scenario private lines for improved LCA with an alternative of F-16 or Gripen is a feasible option. In case of F-16 dis-continuation is almost a certainty and SAAB seems desperate enough to get a buyer for their Jets so it wouldn't be a problem setting up an Indian line.

However in the unlikely scenario India discovers a city full of gold buried somewhere and wants to spend it all on Rafales then C'est la vie!!

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## sathya

Taygibay said:


> I cannot and will not speak for him but
> 
> *Arms importations ( all ) :*
> 
> *France 20 M*
> 
> *India 4,243 M*
> 
> 
> 
> *Arms exportations ( major systems ) :*
> 
> *France 1,978 B*
> 
> *India 55 M*
> 
> As per SIPRI tables & 2015 will show worst by far!
> 
> Wake me up when you have an arms industry worth talking about, something close to ours!
> I'm done comparing reality with pipe dreams.
> 
> I should have stuck to my intention not to reply to this lalaland thread, my bad!
> So *note to PariK and Abingdon, *GL guys but forget the tags here from now on, Tay.
> 
> P.S. And to think that you are one of the calm reasonable ones ...




Slap in our face to wake up..

Let me hope concerned people wake up , or at least private sector z..

And I hope I can reply to you with facts that we have beat u in exports in my life time..



Piper said:


> Your exit from this was a forgone conclusion, after-all there is only so much indulgence for the theatre of absurd.
> 
> However in the unlikely scenario *India discovers a city full of gold buried somewhere and wants to spend it all on Rafales then C'est la vie*!!



 We did find gold in Trivandrum temple...

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## randomradio

Piper said:


> However in the unlikely scenario India discovers a city full of gold buried somewhere and wants to spend it all on Rafales then C'est la vie!!



Okay let me lay it straight. This goes to @Taygibay as well.

MII programs for Falcons and Rafales are happening. The decision has already been taken. The MoD is waiting for IN decision to decide the final numbers.

This is Hollande's own words:
Hollande in India: Rafale deal likely to see some progress - The Hindu


> “The Rafale is a major project for India and France. It will pave the way for an *unprecedented industrial and technological cooperation, including ‘Make in India’, for the next 40 years.* Agreeing on the technicalities of this arrangement obviously takes time, but we are on the right track,” he said in an interview to PTI.



Licences cleared for 19 high-tech defence JVs | mydigitalfc.com


> Reliance Aerospace Technologies that has a joint venture with French Aerospace giant, Dassault Aviation and another tie up with US-based Boeing, will be able to commence production facilities in Andhra Pradesh as the defence deals stipulate 30 per cent domestic sourcing of equipment, spares and indigenous material for the Rafale combat jets, Falcon jets and Boeing’s P81 aircraft.



Reliance will start with making spares, followed by sub-assemblies and then full line for Falcon.

I never claimed "all" Falcons will be made in India, Tay did. I never claimed anything that would relate to comparing India's export industry with France either. So I am not the one making unreasonable claims.

The future plan:
And Dassault's plan in India under Make in India for Rafales is bigger than you imagine. I don't have to stress enough what it means when Hollande himself said the cooperation will be *'unprecedented'.* The plan is to make more Rafales in India than in France and at a faster pace in a shorter time. This means the scale of economics, labour, access to resources etc are all in India's favour. So there is a high possibility that the cost of production and spares manufacturing is bound to be cheaper in India than in France. And the JV company would be shared with an Indian production partner, but the technology itself will be under Dassault's control. There is reason to believe the share of this JV company could be 51-49 in favour of Dassault.

As for total orders, the orders may come in different tranches. It will start with the initial 90 for IAF and 54 for IN. After that new tranche orders will come in, this is quite unprecedented for IAF because they can opt for new versions as and when they are released, unlike in the past. The minimum number for IAF is 180. The minimum number for IN is 54. Potential extension of the orders could take it beyond 300, since that's about half the total requirement.

Minimum production numbers is 20 per year for IAF alone. For the navy and exports we are yet to see.

As for exports. The current export orders are 24 Egypt, 24 Qatar, 36 India and 60 UAE. That's 144 jets. At 22 per year, since 11 are booked by the French themselves, it will take France 6.5 years to deliver all 144 jets. With deliveries from 2018 onwards (minus Egypt), the order will be done only in 2024, not counting an expansion of numbers, especially from Qatar because they originally wanted 72 jets. For any new orders a major expansion of the line is necessary. If exports rise beyond 144, it is obvious the Indian line will have to deliver the rest, *subject to being more cost effective than in France. *

Before IDF shut down, we had a member called CNL who pointed out that 5 new countries are in line for Rafale exports. And there was also a news report that said the Saudis want 72 jets. These countries are obviously not going to wait until 2024. That's where the Indian line comes in. Picdel is of the opinion that the line in India could very well expand to 45 jets a year. That leaves 25/year for the IN and export.

@Piper The Indian capital budget for the period between now and 2027 is well over $100B at a growth rate of 8%. The defence budget in India generally grows at 10-12% with an occasional burst of 25+% after every few years. So the Indian capital budget could easily exceed $150B. The total cost of acquiring 20 Rafales a year is only $2-3B a year. Over a period of 10 years that's just $20B. The cost of the Indian contribution to the production line will be covered by the offsets from the 36 aircraft. Of course, there is also a chance that the IAF may opt for quick inductions of Rafale by expanding their yearly purchase after 2025, like they did during the MKI program by doubling orders to 25 jets a year for a period of 5 years. By 2025, the IAF's yearly capital budget could be over $15B, closer to $20B, which means they can easily get 40 jets a year and still have about $10-15B left over.

None of this is unreasonable. This is the game plan. And to add to this plan, one or two additional MMRCA lines will be set up because a few hundred Rafales are simply not enough.

@ Piper We did find a city of gold that can fund all the Rafales.
About $22 Billion In Gold, Diamonds, Jewels Found In Indian Temple : The Two-Way : NPR


> Over the past week, on orders from the country's Supreme Court, a panel has found a treasure estimated to be worth $22 billion in the underground vaults of a Hindu temple in Trivandrum, India.


 Cheers, bro.

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## Piper

randomradio said:


> @ Piper We did find a city of gold that can fund all the Rafales.


 Well Well!! What do ya know!

IAF has lot of outlays; large amount of personnel who need to be paid, legacy jets which need to be maintained and upgraded, new projects with Russia which need to be midwifed, home grown hail Mary's like AMCA and LCA Block 2, gunships, logistic support aircrafts, S-400 systems etc etc. It would lot more than 10-15 Billion to ensure that everything comes online in a streamlined manner.

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## randomradio

Piper said:


> Well Well!! What do ya know!
> 
> IAF has lot of outlays; large amount of personnel who need to be paid, legacy jets which need to be maintained and upgraded, new projects with Russia which need to be midwifed, home grown hail Mary's like AMCA and LCA Block 2, gunships, logistic support aircrafts, S-400 systems etc etc. It would lot more than 10-15 Billion to ensure that everything comes online in a streamlined manner.



Personnel, maintenance etc comes under a different budget category, the revenue budget. That $100B figure for IAF is very modest. This budget does not take into account the IN's share of aircraft. They have their own budget which is almost as big.

If production starts at 20 a year for the IAF by 2020, then by 2027 they would have only 140 jets. That would cost them less than $20B with weapons, spares and training. About $15B for a second MMRCA program for the same numbers. So that's just 35% of the total capital budget for the IAF during that same period. Only Su-30 and a few Jaguars would be undergoing upgrades post 2022, that's not a lot. The remaining can easily buy them support aircraft. Support aircraft don't cost a lot because the most expensive aircraft are bought in small numbers.

You can make a list of the biggest IAF programs and you will realize that the absolute biggest programs are not as big as one imagines it to be.

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## PARIKRAMA

*SEMMB aims to double its production of Rafale seats in 2017*

Currently, the assembly shop of the ejection seat Rafale SEMMB (Société d'Exploitation of Materials Martin Baker) in Argenteuil idling. It is not the great excitement towards Merignac where are assembled the Rafale. The runaway political and media generated by the signing of the first export contracts has not crossed the threshold of the workshops.






It takes about 200 hours to assemble and check ejection seat MkF16F Gust
© Gil Roy / Aerobuzz.fr
The first six Rafale delivered in a hurry to Egypt were taken on the French quota, to the relief of the Ministry of Defence. Not therefore need to work extra hard. As for deliveries of Qatar, they will not begin until 2018. By then, India will be signed for 36 aircraft and Dassault have won other contracts. That at least is the belief of Eric Trappier, the CEO of the company. Hence his decision to set capacity to triple the production rate if necessary. The SEMMB logically follows suit.

The joint venture of Safran and Martin-Baker has indeed strengthen its workforce by hiring three additional technicians, currently under formation. 13 operators are assigned to the seat assembly. " _By the end of 2016 we will have doubled our production capacity_ ," says Laurent Leyniac, the foreman. Besides the increase in staff, SEMMB put on the versatility of its technicians. " _The operators assigned to the maintenance of the Mirage 2000 seats and Alphajets will be able to seat assembly Rafale_ ". The subsidiary of Safran employs fifty employees.The main of its business consists of maintenance ejection seats based on aircraft built by Dassault. If twenty Rafale MkF16F new seats are assembled each year in Argenteuil, however, 100 to 130 seats are revised at the same time. [ 1] *To Challenge SEMMB is mobilizing its suppliers [ 2 ] to successfully achieve the production rate of 4 seats per month since 2017*. To give some flexibility, the Franco-British equipment manufacturer also plans to form the stock. " _This is possible since pyrotechnics is mounted in Merignac by Dassault_ ," said Laurent Leyniac.









An ejection seat MkF16F Gust contains about 3,500 pieces and weighs an average of approximately 90 kg
© Safran
Since its creation in 1959, SEMMB produced about 5,700 seats [ 3 ] and saved 698 pilots life. In other words, more of an ejection seat out of 10 was used by a driver. That's an average of nearly 60 years. Modern aircraft are more reliable and better supervised procedures. The proof of the 250 seats Gust delivered to date, 3 were used.

Gil Roy

*Notes*
[ 1 ] The seats are reviewed every 2 years after commissioning, with a general overhaul every 6 years.

[ 2 ] Forty suppliers contributing to the manufacture of seats with Martin-Baker Aircraft (UK), Ronaldsway (Isle of Man), Zodiac Aerospace (France), Dassault Aviation (France), Meggitt Aerospace (UK), Air Liquide (France) etc.

[ 3 ] SEMMB produced to date 5,700 seats including 250 for the Rafale, Mirage 1470 to 2000 for the 47 Super Etendard, and 220 for Alphajets, aircraft training of armed pilots. The aircraft are equipped with 1 or 2 seats according to demand of the armed (on the fleet of the French army, 2/3 seater planes).

SEMMB vise le doublement de sa production de sièges de Rafale dès (...) - Aerobuzz


Assuming 4 seats a month and perhaps full 12 months production unlike Dassault 11 months production, the seat totals 48 a year
And seats are reviewed in 2 years as indicated after 2 years of commissioning. If the assumption is just for Merignac line won't this be stocking way too many seats.. I mean every year excess will lead to in 2 years of production almost equalling Rafale production for 1 year I Merignac line.

Thus I have a second line of thought here..

Dassault may use either 33 full production line usage or say 22 types production or in-between for orders it has in hand including almost confirmed India order

This leaves around 15 extra seats a year if Merignac production is at 33 per year
Or
Around 26 extra seats a year if Merignac production is at 22 jets a year...

Effectively since Martin Baker is a small player it's scaling up indicates a much bigger plan for rush in order.. And in line with perhaps a indication that it's stock will be consumed within a set timeline....

Does this indicate towards a conclusive Rafale in India under MII or is it another elusive deal with far fetched ripe imagination...particularly mine who is keen to find some hints among its suppliers plan for such a case..

@Abingdonboy @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil

@Taygibay 
Tagging you Tay for information.. If you feel comfy do reply.. Of course I can't force you but your views will be appreciated..

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> This leaves around 15 extra seats a year if Merignac production is at 33 per year
> Or
> Around 26 extra seats a year if Merignac production is at 22 jets a year...



Rafale-B has two seats.



> Does this indicate towards a conclusive Rafale in India under MII or is it another elusive deal with far fetched ripe imagination...particularly mine who is keen to find some hints among its suppliers plan for such a case..



MII is yet to be announced.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> Rafale-B has two seats.
> 
> 
> 
> MII is yet to be announced.



So in such a scenario, Martin Baker has to yp it's production further to accommodate so called MII order?

Expansion from 2 per month to 4 to say 6 or 8 is too steep for such a specialised company where per seat takes almost 200 hours to produce..


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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> So in such a scenario, Martin Baker has to yp it's production further to accommodate so called MII order?
> 
> Expansion from 2 per month to 4 to say 6 or 8 is too steep for such a specialised company where per seat takes almost 200 hours to produce..


You cannot increase too much the production, because you need skill people to supervise the newcomers. So they increase now, and they will increase again in two years.

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> You cannot increase too much the production, because you need skill people to supervise the newcomers. So they increase now, and they will increase again in two years.



Thats what i also thought..

In fact thats what i have a common understanding from Dassault supply chain whose already expanding in line with ramping up the orders.. each of these expansions takes time, finance and viability of production being used..

So i was feeling for a specialised company like Bakers, it may be difficult to find out sufficient people with skills to expand the production by too much numbers or adding another 50% over and above 4 per month after 2017. Perhaps such a review may be done more like 2019/2020 types to see the real visibility of any such needs.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> Thats what i also thought..
> 
> In fact thats what i have a common understanding from Dassault supply chain whose already expanding in line with ramping up the orders.. each of these expansions takes time, finance and viability of production being used..
> 
> So i was feeling for a specialised company like Bakers, it may be difficult to find out sufficient people with skills to expand the production by too much numbers or adding another 50% over and above 4 per month after 2017. Perhaps such a review may be done more like 2019/2020 types to see the real visibility of any such needs.


It's not so hard, because with the 130 Rafale already procured we removed 593 old planes, mainly Mirage of all types, it's a lot of seat you stop to maintain, and these people can be used, after a training to build new seat.

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## randomradio

Cross posting Picdel's post from IDF:
Today an interview of Trappier, CEO of Dassault where he said there is just a little detail to conclude: the price. But he said that smiling and also he said that Dassault is preparing for the make in India a proposal for 90 Rafale (as first step)

@Picdelamirand-oil We were expecting this announcement after Dassault was sure of the contract signature for the first 36. So does that mean we have the 36 in the bag now?

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## Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio said:


> Cross posting Picdel's post from IDF:
> Today an interview of Trappier, CEO of Dassault where he said there is just a little detail to conclude: the price. But he said that smiling and also he said that Dassault is preparing for the make in India a proposal for 90 Rafale (as first step)
> 
> @Picdelamirand-oil We were expecting this announcement after Dassault was sure of the contract signature for the first 36. So does that mean we have the 36 in the bag now?


Not so sure without a price.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

*Cross posting from IDF*

CNL-PN-AA said:


> The date of signature was agreed two weeks ago . The price for the only 36 Rafales has already been set. The discussions about the price concern modifications asked by India and maintenance costs.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> Cross posting Picdel's post from IDF:
> Today an interview of Trappier, CEO of Dassault where he said there is just a little detail to conclude: the price. But he said that smiling and also he said that Dassault is preparing for the make in India a proposal for 90 Rafale (as first step)
> 
> @Picdelamirand-oil We were expecting this announcement after Dassault was sure of the contract signature for the first 36. So does that mean we have the 36 in the bag now?





Picdelamirand-oil said:


> *Cross posting from IDF*
> 
> CNL-PN-AA said:
> The date of signature was agreed two weeks ago . The price for the only 36 Rafales has already been set. The discussions about the price concern modifications asked by India and maintenance costs.



Nice, then this is inline with what i have said before.. when i gave a reply to @randomradio on Feb 15th






Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 125

So at least my source is pointing in the right direction 

I am still a bit concerned with the numbers bit..
You see MMRCA 2.0 as the term coined by media was 90 by deducing 126-36=90

My source on the other hand talked about 189-36-18= 135 under MII Phase 1 IAF + a lot more under Phase 2
Also source indicated a need of 54 jets for IAC2 and another equal number for IN fleet implying 100+
In short, what i want to point is, Source talked about equaling 265-285 French AF numbers mix of Rafales (including Rafale Ms) based on 225+new tranche to be ordered

So is this talk of 90 hinting a structure same as say Su30 MKI procurement where we keep ordering in tranches every 3-4 years...

Eventually if we are going for customized stuff, it makes logic to have a large fleet..

If we are really talking about 90 now under MII in phase 1, @randomradio We might not see high rate of production as we had discussed before..

In such a case, as you have pointed out the fighter needs in numbers is close to 700, it makes sense to either ramp up our LCA numbers much above 16/year which is difficult, so there can be a second MII line owing to this mismatch.. Not sure who will come out as winner but of course, the need is becoming a bit transparent slowly..

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> If we are really talking about 90 now under MII in phase 1, @randomradio We might not see high rate of production as we had discussed before..



The first tranche was always 90. You are forgetting IN and export requirement. Production numbers will be ramped up based on the navy and export orders.

The MMRCA production requirement was 20 per year for 108 jets. So that will be minimum if neither IN nor export orders are available. IAF will buy 180.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> The first tranche was always 90. You are forgetting IN and export requirement. Production numbers will be ramped up based on the navy and export orders.
> 
> The MMRCA production requirement was 20 per year for 108 jets. So that will be minimum if neither IN nor export orders are available. IAF will buy 180.



Cool in that sense if its 20/jet for only domestic consumption same as MMRCA then the case is as follows..

Assuming say 2.5-3 years for line setup
and 5 years say for completing these 90 orders (ideally it will be 4.5 years but rounding for benefit)
So, in approx 8 years we will get 90 
counting from Jan 2017, 8 years is upto Dec 2024.

So if i add another 3 years of production in that till 2017 its 60 more.. based on assumption that a second tranche is being ordered which is made up of IAF and IN needs which keeps the line going for 5-6 more years till 2030 (120 jets for 6 years).

Assuming we also order 18 follow on from merignac too..

Thus all total is around

36+ 18 = 54 from Merignac
90+60 = 150 from India
----------------------------------
Total = 204 till 2027 (and 264 till 2030 end.)

We also talked about LCA 106 + 40 MKI = 146

Thus, till 2027 its 204+146 = 350 jets right?

Asuming LCA MK1A production is increased by 3 more years beyond 2024 so 16x3 = 48 then the total jets available till 2027 (new) is 350+48 = 398

So based on earlier figure of 700 which you had pointed, we are meeting just 56% and shortfall is 302 jets. 

In that case, DM MP will be able to justify another line of jet..

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## Picdelamirand-oil

When I look at Trappier interview he seems surpised by the question about the number and he have to answer something but he doesn't want to. So he refer to MMRCA to give an order of magnetude. It seems also that 100% will not be build in India at the begining but it seems achieviable to Trappier this 100% at the end of the 90. And then India can ask for more.

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> When I look at Trappier interview he seems surpised by the question about the number and he have to answer something but he doesn't want to. So he refer to MMRCA to give an order of magnetude. It seems also that 100% will not be build in India at the begining but it seems achieviable to Trappier this 100% at the end of the 90. And then India can ask for more.


By 100 percent do you mean to say from beginning say from kits assembly to perhaps from raw materials directly something which we have achieved in MKIs a similar kind of reach by end of 90.. In that case dont you think 90 gives a very limited time frame for kind of localisation.. I mean quoting say high 60s - 70s is still understandable but 100% at the end of 90 requires a good time period...

And judging by MMRCA speed of production of say 20 jets a year it gives a timeline of 8 years (inclusive of line setup) approximation...

A news article on Indian Defense Review
++
*Rafale and F/A-18 - The Right Way Forward*
Sachin A
IssueNet Edition| Date : 24 Feb , 2016



F/A-18 and Rafale

The MMRCA deal and its subsequent avatar in the form of an off-the-shelf purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets have been making news for a long time now. Of late, there have been a lot of contradicting statements by the defence minister, the Air Force chief, representatives of Dassault – the makers of the much talked about fighter, and other stakeholders about the outcome of the price negotiations. But, even after all this hype, one would wonder whether the government is doing the right thing by opting for the 36 fighters (2 squadrons) of the seemingly exorbitantly expensive Rafale, with a possible additional order for 18 fighters (1 Squadron).

*The high cost doesn’t mean that the Rafale is a bad choice. It is indeed a good choice going by the technical evaluation that the IAF had conducted. *One parameter that sets the Rafale apart from other contemporary fighters is its high combat radius (> 1800 Kms). This would mean that the Rafale can be used as a long-range strike fighter which can carry its payload deep into hostile territory, a capability which can be matched by very few fighter jets worldwide, if any.

Even if the Rafale deal goes through and assuming that the defence ministry would exercise the add-on clause for the additional 18 fighters, the fact is that the purchase would do little to arrest the worrying shortfall in the IAF’s squadron numbers, not to mention that the original MMRCA requirement was for 126 fighters with a possible option clause for 60 plus additional aircraft.

There have been demands from various quarters that the IAF should consider buying more LCAs than what is being planned for, to meet the MMRCA requirement.* But, such demands cannot be justified from a strategic and economic perspective, since buying more fighters in the light combat category like the LCAs is meaningless, considering the fact that the MMRCA program was for a Medium combat fighter – the Rafale being one. The LCA is not capable enough to evade the enemy’s air defence network and strike deep inside hostile territory. It is also not suited for the deep strike role because of its limited payload capacity*. Although such rules may be overlooked at in times of war, they shouldn’t be ignored when making procurement decisions.

That leaves the IAF with a few options to fill in the gaps which the trimmed Rafale deal would create in its squadron strength – the Lockheed Martin F-16, the Eurofighter Typhoon (which also passed the IAF’s MMRCA technical evaluations), the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, the Mig-35 and the Saab JAS 39 Gripen. Of these, only Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Saab have offered to assemble their respective fighters in India and thus will be favoured in case the defence ministry decides to produce fighters to meet the MMRCA requirement. T*he Gripen is a good fighter, albeit with little combat experience.* The F-16 and the F/A-18 are proven fighter jets with a good enough track records.

The F-16 is a fighter which started flying in the late 1970s.It has undergone various upgrade programs during its entire operational history with the U.S. Air Force. It is a known fact that the fighter is about to reach the end of its evolution cycle as a platform and that no further upgrades to it would be made in the future, other than the ongoing upgrade programs. However, the USAF might opt for further upgrades in the form of mere lifecycle extensions, if the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is not ready on time for mass production. *This would mean that the F-16 would be a bad choice for India. Also, it is not a good idea to procure the same fighter which Pakistan already has in its inventory.*

Though this leaves the IAF with only the F/A-18 Super Hornet as a choice, there are other important reasons why choosing the F/A-18s should be the right way forward.

Firstly, there are arguments that the Super Hornet is basically an upgraded version of the older McDonnell Douglas F/A-18 Hornet. Factually this is not entirely true, since the Super Hornet is a completely redesigned new fighter with some commonality with the older F/A-18. The Super Hornet started flying in the mid-90s and has since been flying with multiple Air forces and Navies around the world. The unit cost of the F/A-18 Super Hornet will also be much lesser than the Rafales.

India had been working on its Kaveri engine program, which has now been dubbed as a failure.

*The second and the most important reason are the engines. Boeing has offered to setup an entire assembly line for the F/A-18s in India. And if this means that even the engines for the F/A-18s will be manufactured in India, which will be a very good value proposition. This is because the General Electric F-414 engines that are used by the F/A-18 Super Hornets will also power the Tejas Mk2 which is now under development. If the engines are made in India, this will benefit both the Super Hornets and the LCA program and there will also be the added benefit of availability of life cycle support within India for the engines for both the fighters. This would mean huge cost savings, since a single fighter jet uses 3.5 engines over its lifetime on an average. Assuming that the Indian Air Force would decide to procure around 100 twin-engined F/A-18s and that both the IAF and the Navy will eventually buy around 120 plus single-engined LCA Mk2 fighters, the demand will be for a minimum of 1000 GE F-414 jet engines throughout the lifetime of both the fighters – providing economies of scale.*

*Thirdly, under the Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI), which is the name of the framework for Indo-US defence co-operation, joint development of a jet engine is also being discussed. That the U.S has reportedly offered to rewrite its laws so that India could gain access to classified technical information related to the GE F414 jet engines, is a lucrative offer which cannot be ignored. There will be consequences of allying with the U.S in such a way and those will have to be factored in by New Delhi.*

Only a few countries have been successful in developing jet engines for their fighter aircraft. China, for instance, hasn’t been able to master the jet engine technology even after pumping in billions of Yuans into its engine R&D programs. General Electric has also been planning on a project for up rating it’s F-414 engines, so that its peak thrust with afterburners is increased from 98 KNs to 110 KNs.

*Apparently, GE is keen to work with the DRDO in this project, which would mean that India can use these up rated engines for powering it’s futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). If such a co-operation fructifies, the F/A-18s, LCA Mk2 and the AMCA programs will mutually benefit from each other because of engine commonality*. The Indian Navy and the Air Force will have a combined requirement of around 250 or more twin-engined AMCAs. This would mean an additional requirement of more than 1500 F-414 engines.

*According to the soon-to-be-released Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP – 2016), the defence ministry will be choosing an Indian private company as the strategic development partner for aero engines. The best way for this company to take off will be to join this proposed DRDO-General Electric R&D project, so that it gains enough technical expertise for supporting India’s future military and civilian aircraft engine programs.*

If the Indian Air Force makes the right procurement decisions, it would help in increasing its fighter squadron numbers to the sanctioned level of 42. A far-sighted decision should be one which benefits India’s defence industry in the long run. The Ministry of Defence will have to be prudent enough while implementing its policies and decisions. This will ensure that India’s indigenous defence industry gets a much needed shot in the arm.

Rafale and F/A-18 – The Right Way Forward » Indian Defence Review

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> Cool in that sense if its 20/jet for only domestic consumption same as MMRCA then the case is as follows..
> 
> Assuming say 2.5-3 years for line setup
> and 5 years say for completing these 90 orders (ideally it will be 4.5 years but rounding for benefit)
> So, in approx 8 years we will get 90
> counting from Jan 2017, 8 years is upto Dec 2024.
> 
> So if i add another 3 years of production in that till 2017 its 60 more.. based on assumption that a second tranche is being ordered which is made up of IAF and IN needs which keeps the line going for 5-6 more years till 2030 (120 jets for 6 years).
> 
> Assuming we also order 18 follow on from merignac too..
> 
> Thus all total is around
> 
> 36+ 18 = 54 from Merignac
> 90+60 = 150 from India
> ----------------------------------
> Total = 204 till 2027 (and 264 till 2030 end.)
> 
> We also talked about LCA 106 + 40 MKI = 146
> 
> Thus, till 2027 its 204+146 = 350 jets right?
> 
> Asuming LCA MK1A production is increased by 3 more years beyond 2024 so 16x3 = 48 then the total jets available till 2027 (new) is 350+48 = 398
> 
> So based on earlier figure of 700 which you had pointed, we are meeting just 56% and shortfall is 302 jets.
> 
> In that case, DM MP will be able to justify another line of jet..



The numbers are not written in stone. Like Picdel says, these are MMRCA estimates. In case there is a delay with AMCA or FGFA, the numbers will obviously rise. Also, IAF squadrons limit will also increase. And so will IN's squadron requirements.

The minimum of 90 aircraft is meant to keep the production line viable in India. The numbers will go far beyond 90 even without IN orders.


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## PARIKRAMA

*India plans to announce a tender for the purchase of 54 new aircraft carrier and aircraft thereto*






*bmpd*
February 25th, 1:07
According to French newsletter « *TTU* » in the material « *the Porte-Avions indien:? The Rafale Marine vs the Mig 29K* », the NDTV television channel confirmed that a high-level visit of the French delegation to India January 29, 2016 to meet with representatives of the Staff of the Indian Navy. The purpose of the visit was to offer Indians deck version fighter Dassault Rafale - Rafale M. Aircraft _Design image carrier Vishal (a) indiandefence.com_







*India plans to announce a tender for the purchase of [meaning the design of foreign aid and construction on Indian shipyards]* fourth aircraft carrier with a displacement of 65,000 tons, 300 meters long and 70 meters wide (as bulletin notes, almost British aircraft carrier _Prince of Wales_ ). New Delhi seems to be leaning in favor of the nuclear power plant, which is considered less costly for long term use, as India looks to save a new aircraft carrier (which became known as _Vishal_ ) for over 50 years.

*The composition of the wing Vishal will be one of the most complex elements of the tender as the number of planes required reaches 54 units. Indian Ministry of Defence expects to achieve unification in the supply of spare parts for Air Force and Navy aircraft. *

*Thus, among the planes, which will be assessed only Rafale and the MiG-29, which the MiG-29K modifications already make up a wing of an aircraft carrier Vikrant , meet this condition.*

Индия планирует объявить тендер на закупку нового авианосца и 54 самолетов к нему - bmpd
*
Original material*

Porte-avions indien : Rafale Marine vs Mig 29K ? - TTU lettre d’information
*Indian aircraft carrier: Rafale vs Mig 29K?*

The NDTV television network confirmed that a high-level French delegation had met on January 29 the General Staff of the Indian Navy in order to propose the navy Rafale.

India plans to take to open a tender to acquire a fourth aircraft carrier of 65,000 tons, 300 m long and 70 m wide (or almost the characteristics of the "Prince of Wales"). New Delhi seems seduced by the nuclear-powered considered less costly in the long cycles of use, since it hopes to keep this new building, already dubbed "Vishal", almost fifty years.

The multirole air component of "Vishal" would be one of the critical points of this competition, and the amount of equipment required would be 54 copies. The Indian MoD seek more homogenizing logistics and spare parts between the planes of the Air Force and in the Navy. Now, among other aircraft that would be evaluated, only the Rafale, if acquired by the Indian Air Force, and the Mig 29, deployed in its navalized K version on the aircraft carrier "Vikrant" benefit from this asset.



++++++++
Comments:

Bmpd quotes that serious contender is only Rafale M & Mig29K with the emphasis on to achieve unification in supply of spare parts for IAF and IN aircraft....
It would be interesting if India asks for assistance from French majors for INS Vishal
The usage of design of foreign aid and construction on Indian yards hints for a strategic consultancy role and may be co-designing especially around nuclear reactor position.
Now only few companies across the world has such designing experience and among them the one with whom we have good strong relationship outside USA & Russia is France's DCNS
Since we have a long tie up with DCNS and judging by DCNS experience, i quote the following from their website
Source: Aircraft carriers | DCNS Group
Quote
_The *aircraft carrier* is the largest type of warship, and is considered to be an airbase in its own right and veritable floating city. It provides autonomous air support that is crucial to the success of all types of naval or land operations.

It is one of the most important elements of a fleet and the aircraft carrier is escorted by other types of vessels and submarines (frigates, mine hunters, nuclear attack submarines, replenishment oilers, etc.). The aircraft carrier ensures the protection of this fleet.

DCNS has, in particular, designed and built the Charles de Gaulle nuclear-powered aircraft carrier. DCNS now ensures its maintenance.
_
*DEAC® aircraft carrier*
_The aircraft carrier deploys an on-board aircraft group (up to 40 aircraft)*. *DEAC® (DCNS Evolved AirCraft) is equipped with the latest generation of combat systems. Its advanced conventional propulsion system allows the optimization of replenishment frequency and ensures a permanent presence at sea within an air-sea group._

_The crew is adjusted to the actual need thanks to a reasonable level of automation. Through-life support costs are reduced. The catapult aircraft carrier is compatible with most modern carrier-based aircraft (Rafale, F-18, E2C C/D…)._
Unquote


If BARC can come up with a 160 MW design N reactor then this reactor can be placed in our N-ACC
This is significant as EMALS tech may be fully out of INS Vishal owing to issues in transferring this tech to India (US issues). This implies it will be a Catapult assisted take off .. Steam powered..
This is where DCNS can come in the picture and bcz of their extensive experience they are a strategic player. They have relationship already with India via scorpenes and tie up with MDL...
The aircraft designing and consultancy can have active inputs from DCNS who has experience for such platforms
This co-operation is further in line with hints pointing to Indian interests in SSN Barracuda technologies for our indigenous SSN projects.. Again DCNS there, no surprises
Thus i have a sneaky suspicion India may be negotiating for far too many things other than so called just Rafale fighters jets deal..
This also hints perhaps to our earlier thought process that IN order firming may be just one of the bigger trigger points for Rafale deal particularly its MII component.
Interestingly the minimum order confirmed is in line with earlier estimates of 200+ with 189 for IAF and 54 for carrier ops implying 243+ probably reaching equal or more than France orders herself
Out of this if flyaway gets restricted at 36 or 54 the MII component requirement is almost 200..
This implies there is more sense in ordering in tranches in line with how France orders her "Gusts" (Rafale). May be tranches to begin with 90/100 followed by 40/50 every few years.
@Abingdonboy @Vauban @Taygibay @anant_s @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ 
Its in line with what we have always discussed about Rafale potential in India.... The only small change i see is some more strategic consultancy or partnering by French company DCNS on our ACC... That angle will put a firm direction to where we are heading in terms of our plans and aircraft of our choice for a good amount of time.

Again this may prove that potentially 18s is not attractive to IN as the theme is unification of spare and supply chain for both IAF and IN.

Thus potentially Boeing interest may get routed here... and 16/Gripen as a direct threat to LCA is a known theme to masses.. Is it not again to what we said before that DM MP is just bluffing to put some pressure .. perhaps show in front of media a hard negotiator type image..??

Interestingly if this points to the strategic aspect of our relationship which is growing day by day, why is it that our media and people dont seems to see that and are trying hard to downplay such significant boost..

@Ankit Kumar Tagging you too as i think this will interest you..

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## randomradio

IN will most likely be buying a squadron or two of Mig-29K. There is no competition with Rafale. Both will eventually be purchased.

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## Ankit Kumar

PARIKRAMA said:


> *India plans to announce a tender for the purchase of 54 new aircraft carrier and aircraft thereto*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *bmpd*
> February 25th, 1:07
> According to French newsletter « *TTU* » in the material « *the Porte-Avions indien:? The Rafale Marine vs the Mig 29K* », the NDTV television channel confirmed that a high-level visit of the French delegation to India January 29, 2016 to meet with representatives of the Staff of the Indian Navy. The purpose of the visit was to offer Indians deck version fighter Dassault Rafale - Rafale M. Aircraft _Design image carrier Vishal (a) indiandefence.com_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *India plans to announce a tender for the purchase of [meaning the design of foreign aid and construction on Indian shipyards]* fourth aircraft carrier with a displacement of 65,000 tons, 300 meters long and 70 meters wide (as bulletin notes, almost British aircraft carrier _Prince of Wales_ ). New Delhi seems to be leaning in favor of the nuclear power plant, which is considered less costly for long term use, as India looks to save a new aircraft carrier (which became known as _Vishal_ ) for over 50 years.
> 
> *The composition of the wing Vishal will be one of the most complex elements of the tender as the number of planes required reaches 54 units. Indian Ministry of Defence expects to achieve unification in the supply of spare parts for Air Force and Navy aircraft. *
> 
> *Thus, among the planes, which will be assessed only Rafale and the MiG-29, which the MiG-29K modifications already make up a wing of an aircraft carrier Vikrant , meet this condition.*
> 
> Индия планирует объявить тендер на закупку нового авианосца и 54 самолетов к нему - bmpd
> *
> Original material*
> 
> Porte-avions indien : Rafale Marine vs Mig 29K ? - TTU lettre d’information
> *Indian aircraft carrier: Rafale vs Mig 29K?*
> 
> The NDTV television network confirmed that a high-level French delegation had met on January 29 the General Staff of the Indian Navy in order to propose the navy Rafale.
> 
> India plans to take to open a tender to acquire a fourth aircraft carrier of 65,000 tons, 300 m long and 70 m wide (or almost the characteristics of the "Prince of Wales"). New Delhi seems seduced by the nuclear-powered considered less costly in the long cycles of use, since it hopes to keep this new building, already dubbed "Vishal", almost fifty years.
> 
> The multirole air component of "Vishal" would be one of the critical points of this competition, and the amount of equipment required would be 54 copies. The Indian MoD seek more homogenizing logistics and spare parts between the planes of the Air Force and in the Navy. Now, among other aircraft that would be evaluated, only the Rafale, if acquired by the Indian Air Force, and the Mig 29, deployed in its navalized K version on the aircraft carrier "Vikrant" benefit from this asset.
> 
> 
> 
> ++++++++
> Comments:
> 
> Bmpd quotes that serious contender is only Rafale M & Mig29K with the emphasis on to achieve unification in supply of spare parts for IAF and IN aircraft....
> It would be interesting if India asks for assistance from French majors for INS Vishal
> The usage of design of foreign aid and construction on Indian yards hints for a strategic consultancy role and may be co-designing especially around nuclear reactor position.
> Now only few companies across the world has such designing experience and among them the one with whom we have good strong relationship outside USA & Russia is France's DCNS
> Since we have a long tie up with DCNS and judging by DCNS experience, i quote the following from their website
> Source: Aircraft carriers | DCNS Group
> Quote
> _The *aircraft carrier* is the largest type of warship, and is considered to be an airbase in its own right and veritable floating city. It provides autonomous air support that is crucial to the success of all types of naval or land operations.
> 
> It is one of the most important elements of a fleet and the aircraft carrier is escorted by other types of vessels and submarines (frigates, mine hunters, nuclear attack submarines, replenishment oilers, etc.). The aircraft carrier ensures the protection of this fleet.
> 
> DCNS has, in particular, designed and built the Charles de Gaulle nuclear-powered aircraft carrier. DCNS now ensures its maintenance.
> _
> *DEAC® aircraft carrier*
> _The aircraft carrier deploys an on-board aircraft group (up to 40 aircraft)*. *DEAC® (DCNS Evolved AirCraft) is equipped with the latest generation of combat systems. Its advanced conventional propulsion system allows the optimization of replenishment frequency and ensures a permanent presence at sea within an air-sea group._
> 
> _The crew is adjusted to the actual need thanks to a reasonable level of automation. Through-life support costs are reduced. The catapult aircraft carrier is compatible with most modern carrier-based aircraft (Rafale, F-18, E2C C/D…)._
> Unquote
> 
> 
> If BARC can come up with a 160 MW design N reactor then this reactor can be placed in our N-ACC
> This is significant as EMALS tech may be fully out of INS Vishal owing to issues in transferring this tech to India (US issues). This implies it will be a Catapult assisted take off .. Steam powered..
> This is where DCNS can come in the picture and bcz of their extensive experience they are a strategic player. They have relationship already with India via scorpenes and tie up with MDL...
> The aircraft designing and consultancy can have active inputs from DCNS who has experience for such platforms
> This co-operation is further in line with hints pointing to Indian interests in SSN Barracuda technologies for our indigenous SSN projects.. Again DCNS there, no surprises
> Thus i have a sneaky suspicion India may be negotiating for far too many things other than so called just Rafale fighters jets deal..
> This also hints perhaps to our earlier thought process that IN order firming may be just one of the bigger trigger points for Rafale deal particularly its MII component.
> Interestingly the minimum order confirmed is in line with earlier estimates of 200+ with 189 for IAF and 54 for carrier ops implying 243+ probably reaching equal or more than France orders herself
> Out of this if flyaway gets restricted at 36 or 54 the MII component requirement is almost 200..
> This implies there is more sense in ordering in tranches in line with how France orders her "Gusts" (Rafale). May be tranches to begin with 90/100 followed by 40/50 every few years.
> @Abingdonboy @Vauban @Taygibay @anant_s @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ
> Its in line with what we have always discussed about Rafale potential in India.... The only small change i see is some more strategic consultancy or partnering by French company DCNS on our ACC... That angle will put a firm direction to where we are heading in terms of our plans and aircraft of our choice for a good amount of time.
> 
> Again this may prove that potentially 18s is not attractive to IN as the theme is unification of spare and supply chain for both IAF and IN.
> 
> Thus potentially Boeing interest may get routed here... and 16/Gripen as a direct threat to LCA is a known theme to masses.. Is it not again to what we said before that DM MP is just bluffing to put some pressure .. perhaps show in front of media a hard negotiator type image..??
> 
> Interestingly if this points to the strategic aspect of our relationship which is growing day by day, why is it that our media and people dont seems to see that and are trying hard to downplay such significant boost..
> 
> @Ankit Kumar Tagging you too as i think this will interest you..



Mig29K vs Rafale M?
I have few acquaintances, and friends but they have said it clearly that STOBAR => Mig29Ks and CATOBAR=> RafaleM / (F35 is still an option) 

Mig29s will not form the air wing for our bigger carriers for sure.

As for deals with France , yes Rafale deal covers a lot of things. And through it a lot of other systems have been on offer.
Russians, French and Israelis acompanied by Czecks and Polish are our main suppliers and history has it that a big deal is bigger than what is visible.

But I really think, here it would be sensible to detach the first 36 negotiations from rest things and go ahead with its purchase. We will be losing ~63 fighter jets this year for retirement replaced by only 16 Su30mkis.

It is a grave situation and needs to be looked upon.

Another thing which someone pointed to me was options for foreign collaboration for building minesweepers for navy, apart from Russian and SK offers there are " some European " offers too.

Maybe DCNS gets a share of pie here, ( but personally I feel the offer came from Italy , whatever it may be , minesweepers are a big YES for navy. )

Thanks for the tag.

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## Abingdonboy

@PARIKRAMA what is interesting is the figure-54, this is the exact figure we (@Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio ) have been discussing for while now so it is clear there is a lot of credibility in these projections.

This also has a secondary effect of rubbishing all the cr@p about the F-18SH in India, if the IN had any beleif that the IAF were leaning towards it then they would be evaluating it also. The very fact they are not interested in the F-18SH highlights what chance it has for the IAF or IN and MII.

Also, there is no mention in this article about how these Rafale-Ms would be delivered to India (MII or off the shelf) but even if you take the confirmed requirements, that is 90 Rafales (36+54)- it is almost unfathomable that there would not be huge industrial benefits for such a large purchase. And we all know that the IAF requires far more than 36. All things are pointing to what we have speculated for a while- an Indian production line for the Rafale with a total Indian requirement (IAF and IN) north of 200 units.

For all the BS misinformation Boeing, SAAB, EFT and LM are putting out there the truth is starting to emerge...



PARIKRAMA said:


> *Indian aircraft carrier: Rafale vs Mig 29K?*
> 
> The NDTV television network confirmed that a high-level French delegation had met on January 29 the General Staff of the Indian Navy in order to propose the navy Rafale.
> 
> India plans to take to open a tender to acquire a fourth aircraft carrier of 65,000 tons, 300 m long and 70 m wide (or almost the characteristics of the "Prince of Wales"). New Delhi seems seduced by the nuclear-powered considered less costly in the long cycles of use, since it hopes to keep this new building, already dubbed "Vishal", almost fifty years.
> 
> The multirole air component of "Vishal" would be one of the critical points of this competition, and the amount of equipment required would be 54 copies. The Indian MoD seek more homogenizing logistics and spare parts between the planes of the Air Force and in the Navy. Now, among other aircraft that would be evaluated, only the Rafale, if acquired by the Indian Air Force, and the Mig 29, deployed in its navalized K version on the aircraft carrier "Vikrant" benefit from this asset.



There will be NO MiG-29K vs Rafale-M discussion if it is a question of the IAC-2's airwing, that will ONLY ever be the Rafale-M (if F-35Cs aren't forced on the IN) as the MiG-29K simply cannot operate from CATOBAR carriers. The only time there would be a Rafale-M vs MiG-29K discussion within the IN is IF the IN is shopping around for an airwing for their STOBAR carriers- IAC-1 and its sister ship (this news may even be confirmation the sister ship is coming).


And here is where things get interesting- the Rafale-M is a shoe-in for the IAC-2 (discounting external influences ie US demands attatched to the EMALS/E-2D sale) however Dassualt are now pushing for the IN's STOBAR carriers also. If the IN is truly looking for commanality with the IAF for the long term then, again, the Rafale-M is the logical choice. Today the IAF operates the MiG-29 (being upgraded to UPG) but these planes have, at most, 15 years of life left in them ie they will be out of Indian service by 2030. On the other hand, the IAF's Rafales will be in service until at least 2045 so which platform will give the IN the most commonility with the IAF for the long term? Rafale- it's not even a contest.

And let's not forget that under the IN's MiG-29K deal, Mikoyan created ZERO industrial base in India, Dassualt are looking to make massive commitments to India purely for the IAF deal, the IN would certainly be able to benefit from this investment and for a long period.


If Dassualt plays their cards right- emphasising the strategic benefits of their offer, ensuring their operating costs (and thus LCCs) are clearly below the IN's MiG-29Ks, highlighting the industrial benefits that will come with the Rafale, talking about what their plans are for the IAF, showcasing the strategic autonomy that exists with the Rafale and ensuring the IN knows they will work with them (this is very important to the IN) then Dassualt can win BIG just with the IN (100+ jets by 2030 and another 55-60 per IAC-2 class carrier churned out beyond that).


I hope all sides stop bean counting and understand what they are on the cusp of here, it is truly strategic in nature and can be a game changer for all stakeholders. I have no issue with saying that if all the above occurs, this GoI has ensured the IAF remains the finest AF in Asia and the IN are the undisputed net security provider in the IOR.


@anant_s @Skull and Bones @knight11 @Taygibay @MilSpec @nair @Vauban @Blue Marlin @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> @PARIKRAMA what is interesting is the figure-54, this is the exact figure we (@Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio ) have been discussing for while now so it is clear there is a lot of credibility in these projections.
> 
> This also has a secondary effect of rubbishing all the cr@p about the F-18SH in India, if the IN had any beleif that the IAF were leaning towards it then they would be evaluating it also. The very fact they are not interested in the F-18SH highlights what chance it has for the IAF or IN and MII.
> 
> Also, there is no mention in this article about how these Rafale-Ms would be delivered to India (MII or off the shelf) but even if you take the confirmed requirements, that is 90 Rafales (36+54)- it is almost unfathomable that there would not be huge industrial benefits for such a large purchase. And we all know that the IAF requires far more than 36. All things are pointing to what we have speculated for a while- an Indian production line for the Rafale with a total Indian requirement (IAF and IN) north of 200 units.
> 
> For all the BS misinformation Boeing, SAAB, EFT and LM are putting out there the truth is starting to emerge...
> 
> 
> 
> There will be NO MiG-29K vs Rafale-M discussion if it is a question of the IAC-2's airwing, that will ONLY ever be the Rafale-M (if F-35Cs aren't forced on the IN) as the MiG-29K simply cannot operate from CATOBAR carriers. The only time there would be a Rafale-M vs MiG-29K discussion within the IN is IF the IN is shopping around for an airwing for their STOBAR carriers- IAC-1 and its sister ship (this news may even be confirmation the sister ship is coming).
> 
> 
> And here is where things get interesting- the Rafale-M is a shoe-in for the IAC-2 (discounting external influences ie US demands attatched to the EMALS/E-2D sale) however Dassualt are now pushing for the IN's STOBAR carriers also. If the IN is truly looking for commanality with the IAF for the long term then, again, the Rafale-M is the logical choice. Today the IAF operates the MiG-29 (being upgraded to UPG) but these planes have, at most, 15 years of life left in them ie they will be out of Indian service by 2030. On the other hand, the IAF's Rafales will be in service until at least 2045 so which platform will give the IN the most commonility with the IAF for the long term? Rafale- it's not even a contest.
> 
> And let's not forget that under the IN's MiG-29K deal, Mikoyan created ZERO industrial base in India, Dassualt are looking to make massive commitments to India purely for the IAF deal, the IN would certainly be able to benefit from this investment and for a long period.
> 
> 
> If Dassualt plays their cards right- emphasising the strategic benefits of their offer, ensuring their operating costs (and thus LCCs) are clearly below the IN's MiG-29Ks, highlighting the industrial benefits that will come with the Rafale, talking about what their plans are for the IAF, showcasing the strategic autonomy that exists with the Rafale and ensuring the IN knows they will work with them (this is very important to the IN) then Dassualt can win BIG just with the IN (100+ jets by 2030 and another 55-60 per IAC-2 class carrier churned out beyond that).
> 
> 
> I hope all sides stop bean counting and understand what they are on the cusp of here, it is truly strategic in nature and can be a game changer for all stakeholders. I have no issue with saying that if all the above occurs, this GoI has ensured the IAF remains the finest AF in Asia and the IN are the undisputed net security provider in the IOR.
> 
> 
> @anant_s @Skull and Bones @knight11 @Taygibay @MilSpec @nair @Vauban @Blue Marlin @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ




I believe the author did the versus thing unknowingly as he may have plainly considered only the commanality aspect between IAF and IN

The versus thing becomes a reality for STOBAR carrier surely as we have discussed before that modified IAC1 follow on can sport Rafales...

For catobar, the author must have used the soundbytes where Mig talked about some customization to enable CATOBAR ops... which of course is anyway discarded

Here is what i see happening
1. We might order a 1-2 squadron more Mig 29ks for the sake of taking over INS vikramaditya thoroughly and negating the planned LCA navy 1 squadron number on deck.

2. The fight again becomes clear for all future STOBAR carriers including perhaps IAC 1 which may see Mig 29Ks but with 50 years life of the ship, IN might opt for Rafale M..

3. For Catobar, i see Rafale M and DCNS coming together

4. For the timeline of indian line production we might see some Rafale M perhaps the first 54 from Merignac line and later may be from Indian line

5. In total Meriganc line may see 36+18+54 = 108 jets build there or at least 36+54 = 90 build there and in India we might see 135+ for IAF and another 75+ for IN ... Most probably minimum double the Merignac line.

Interestingly, Prasun K Sengupta again gave a view on line verbal stuff from DM MP

_By ‘Another Plane’ the RM was referring to the naval version of the LCA—LCA (Navy) Mk.1—which will be optimized for use by the IAF. The existing SP-series Tejas Mk.1 are not operational effective as warfighting assets. The IAF said so as much when it appreciated the Tejas Mk.1’s agility characteristics ‘in operationally clean configuration’, meaning in weaponised configuration, several more hurdles remain to be cleared. And since it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Tejas Mk.1 to be fitted with internal IRST sensor & MAWS, the only available fallback option is to have them on board the IAF variant of the LCA (Navy) Mk.1. _

So as we both predicted its just LCA and Rafale according to PSK too..

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> The versus thing becomes a reality for STOBAR carrier surely as we have discussed before that modified IAC1 follow on can sport Rafales...
> 
> For catobar, the author must have used the soundbytes where Mig talked about some customization to enable CATOBAR ops... which of course is anyway discarded


I think you are right about the reporter not having a clue. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> 1. We might order a 1-2 squadron more Mig 29ks for the sake of taking over INS vikramaditya thoroughly and negating the planned LCA navy 1 squadron number on deck.
> 
> 2. The fight again becomes clear for all future STOBAR carriers including perhaps IAC 1 which may see Mig 29Ks but with 50 years life of the ship, IN might opt for Rafale M..


I think 1-2 more MiG-29K SQN will be ordered for the Viky and IAC-1 (Vikrant)-70 (aprx) MiG-29Ks for 2 ACs +shore based training requirements adds up well (2 SQNs per AC and 1-2 for shore duties).

BUT, IF there is going to be an IAC-1 sister ship then, IMO it makes the most sense to give it the Rafale-M for all the reasons already stated- commonaility with the IAF's fleet for the longest period, commonaility with the IN's CATOBAR carrier airwings, industrial benifits, lower LCCs, easer maintainence whilst underway etc etc



PARIKRAMA said:


> So as we both predicted its just LCA and Rafale according to PSK too..


Haha, duh! I heven't considered a third option as viable since that IGA was announced- that is game over for all other parties (no matter what games Parrikar is trying to play).

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## Masterhunter

PARIKRAMA said:


> I believe the author did the versus thing unknowingly as he may have plainly considered only the commanality aspect between IAF and IN
> 
> The versus thing becomes a reality for STOBAR carrier surely as we have discussed before that modified IAC1 follow on can sport Rafales...
> 
> For catobar, the author must have used the soundbytes where Mig talked about some customization to enable CATOBAR ops... which of course is anyway discarded
> 
> Here is what i see happening
> 1. We might order a 1-2 squadron more Mig 29ks for the sake of taking over INS vikramaditya thoroughly and negating the planned LCA navy 1 squadron number on deck.
> 
> 2. The fight again becomes clear for all future STOBAR carriers including perhaps IAC 1 which may see Mig 29Ks but with 50 years life of the ship, IN might opt for Rafale M..
> 
> 3. For Catobar, i see Rafale M and DCNS coming together
> 
> 4. For the timeline of indian line production we might see some Rafale M perhaps the first 54 from Merignac line and later may be from Indian line
> 
> 5. In total Meriganc line may see 36+18+54 = 108 jets build there or at least 36+54 = 90 build there and in India we might see 135+ for IAF and another 75+ for IN ... Most probably minimum double the Merignac line.
> 
> Interestingly, Prasun K Sengupta again gave a view on line verbal stuff from DM MP
> 
> _By ‘Another Plane’ the RM was referring to the naval version of the LCA—LCA (Navy) Mk.1—which will be optimized for use by the IAF. The existing SP-series Tejas Mk.1 are not operational effective as warfighting assets. The IAF said so as much when it appreciated the Tejas Mk.1’s agility characteristics ‘in operationally clean configuration’, meaning in weaponised configuration, several more hurdles remain to be cleared. And since it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Tejas Mk.1 to be fitted with internal IRST sensor & MAWS, the only available fallback option is to have them on board the IAF variant of the LCA (Navy) Mk.1. _
> 
> So as we both predicted its just LCA and Rafale according to PSK too..



Well... That is a hell of a good news of rafale and me perse.

What I feel is that MIG29 order will be maxed at 1 sqn (20 planes) or at Max 24 planes. That will give IN 65 MIG 29... Enuf to create 04 sqn(12 planes) to man both carriers.. And rest of airwing will be made by NLCA ( 8 each carrier)..
If they order two sqn that is about 40 planes.. They can have 32 planes on both carriers (total 64) and NLCA (46 on order) will then will actually is not useful in that number.
Also, at any point of time in near future (unless war), only one carrier will be sailing and second will remain in harbour, so 65-70 planes is good number to good number to go with to man one carrier and having spare for another in case of emergency.

About IAF MIG29UPG, they are in plans to be phased out by 2030-35... They will used for spares by IN afor their MIG's as they will be operational till 2040-45, if not upgraded (25 yr life) or till 2055 (if upgraded).
Rafale number for IN is gonna be very BIG.. Naval AmCA is not in sight till 2035.. And IN will be operating two more carriers vikrant follow on (32-36 planes) and Vishal (54 planes) ... That's 90 plus 1 sqn each for A&N and lakshadweep (36) and spares . The total goes to about 126+ spares... If u say NLCA can fulfill some requirement, still IN needs 100+ Rafale.
And I don't foresee F35 in Indian colours. IN is very clear in their operational mindset, they don't want interference or checks by some other country. And US won't push F35 that much they will push F18 SH/ASH for navy for EMALS...

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## AUSTERLITZ

I would like to comment something..but really just too fed up with unbelievable delays in the mmrca deal..its been a decade ffs.Till the day the deal is ACTUALLY signed i'm treating every news i get about signing 'soon','this month' as hype.Im seriously skeptical about how mny naval rafales there will be ...IAF cant get a mere 36 ...and u guys are talking about more than that for carrier - the navy will have more rafales than IAF?I wish this was true,that IAF gets its requirement of 100 plus ..but im quite pessimistic about thw whole affair atm.

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## Dash

MilSpec said:


> I am not good at speculating, being away from the Aerospace industry for close to a decade now, I am quite cut off from general development and industry mindset.
> 
> India has a price point advantage for general engineering product development, but knowing US engineering industry, critical component, even as trivial as a profile for a screw compressor is guarded with utmost priority to such extent that even quality and ops cannot get access to design engineering data within the same organisation in the same country. So this entire idea that International Aerospace industry will outsource components to Indian counter parts, which in turn will gain engineering know how and in turn will benefit local industry is beyond my comprehension. If I am wrong, great, but I have my apprehensions based on my experience.
> 
> I used to discuss this with sancho who was a great proponent of technology transfer driving local engineering development. Till date I maintain, there is no alternate to what we used to call "ragda",it roughly translates to sit down and relentlessly design. I pretty much owe everything to this philosophy, where engineer/s is/are given a system/design problem. Utilize 9 step to formulate strategy and 7 ways to for solution approach, and then sit down and design. No other task until you come up with the solution. This "ragda" strategy got us fuel increase in Mig21Bison, integration of jammer, integration for Mission computers, LCA aerofoil and aeroframe, pretty much all of the jigs and fixtures in HAL (albeit some of it was just by intuitive nature of engineering connect that the technicians had with the platform and production back then). I was programmed with this in formative days, so everytime I have to adapt a Tech Transfer i cringe at the G2. Purely from engineering standpoint, I will take an under-performing GTRX kaveri over a tech transfer GE 404, because I know more on my system that I have developed that I can ever know about a system I was donated by some other dude.
> 
> Apologize for the rant, I don't think this addresses your query. But apna hi thread hai.



Sorry for the late response bro. I was traveling hence the late.
To be honest you have answered my query and exceeded it by some points yet some part of it was answered and my bad I wasn't articulate enough.

What I was trying to zero in is at the potential that Boeing might have in creating a world class defense manufacturing industry for defense supplies and production for its various jets. Something China leveraged while working across industrial domain. What if tomorrow all defense companies set up manufacturing units in India? Unemployment will be answered along with advancement of technical skills? 

Could we take this opportunity sans the IAF requirements?



PARIKRAMA said:


> ++++
> Some information on Source based news on Gripen Bid...
> ++++
> 
> Sweden PM Stefan Lofven had a small talk with PM NaMo when both met in Mumbai for MII inauguration program. Both were joined by Saab CEO Hakan Bushke.
> Saab has offered to partner with an Indian company in a JV with Saab investing 49% to develop on the product line Gripen NG further and finish the product with Indian side inputs and requirements.
> This finished product will commence the final production in India and also plan for a naval variant after that.
> This product will require a full so called 100% Technology transfer from Sweden to India for which Sweden government will allow Saab as well as provide them with taxation relief as they have done for Gripen project
> The technology transfer will be for the product line Gripen NG or Gripen E not for earlier models in any manner.
> PM Lofven and Saab CEO Hakan Bushke has appraised PM NaMo that Indian light fighter requirements is almost 400 and Gripen new product with Indian inputs can parallely supply and meet 50% of this requirement or 200 light fighter jets easily
> Further to this, PM Lofven has said in front of Saab chief Bushke to PM NaMo that Saab will use G2G route to sell of other products in the field of Surveillance, Electronic Warfare systems, and battle management systems for IAF as well as IN plus an added impetus for ICG for coastal security systems.
> Also it was said that Saab already has multiple partnership in India as part of making a pyramid supply chain of ensuring component manufacturing in India to sub assembly level and will expand it further once Saab project of Gripen in India starts to ensure Indian MIC makes everything from component to sub assembly to assembly level things
> These partnership includes renowned names like Pipavav Defence, Bharat Electronics, HAL , Kalyani Strategic Systems and Ashok Leyland. The other smaller players are also there
> ++
> Comments
> Clearly if you see Saab is using the magic trick of this figure of ADA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And rehashing it as their idea for MII.
> 
> What is interesting is first few lines and this supply chain indicates they essentially want LCA MK2 to be replaced completely with Gripen NG with "sweet words" of designing the product further and finish it with Indian inputs before final production.
> 
> it also aims to look at almost 200 units or whatever is 50% of Indian Light fighter jet requirements. It aslo talks with the word "parallel" and trying to say they bring no harm to LCA product line.
> 
> Saab also plans for other product sales but via G2G route
> 
> A question i am wondering is for meeting fleet strength if Saab offer is really considered then essentially MK2 is game over..
> 
> +++
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vauban @Taygibay @anant_s @Dash @raktaka @randomradio @Picdelamirand-oil @cerberus @Ankit Kumar @MilSpec @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ


Boeing seems to have a strong case and rest are pressure tactics imo

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## Abingdonboy

Dash said:


> What I was trying to zero in is at the potential that Boeing might have in creating a world class defense manufacturing industry for defense supplies and production for its various jets. Something China leveraged while working across industrial domain. What if tomorrow all defense companies set up manufacturing units in India? Unemployment will be answered along with advancement of technical skills?
> 
> Could we take this opportunity sans the IAF requirements?


Right, but this is already happening. Indian companies are already producing sub-assemblies for Boeing products such as the 787, CH-47F, Ah-64, 737/P-8 and even the F-18.

But Boeing are saying that if India wants a complete end-end production line of the F-18 in India thye need to commit to 100+ fighters for themselves and they can then look at exporting. And this makes sense because take the IAF/IN off the table and where are future F-18 orders going to come from? The USN is switching to the F-35 and the RAAF has already received their F-18SHs and will, at most, order 1-2 SQNs more as an interim to their F-35 orders.

There really is no market for the F-18 beyond 2018 so it is India or bust for Boeing and hence why they are now trying to ram this option down India's throat.



Dash said:


> Boeing seems to have a strong case and rest are pressure tactics imo


"Strong" until you factor in the USG who will have the final say for the next 40 year life span of this production line and support infrastructure thereafter. Addtionally, Boeing, unlike Dassualt, are insisiting that they maintain complete control over the F-18 production line in India meaning no Indian entity would benefit, no IPRs would be transfered, no massive skill devlopment would occur, no ToT on critical tech would take place and the IAF/IN would be beholden to Boeing throughout the product's life for even sub MRO support (when right now the IAF conducts this in-house and the Rafale would allow them to conduct even some MRO activites at a SQN level).

It's a hollow offer that would please Boeing's shareholders and some US congressmen but not the GoI, IAF, IN or Indian taxpayer as a whole. @PARIKRAMA

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## PARIKRAMA

I had been asking in the other thread where @Abingdonboy you have yet no graced with your presence
Here is the link
US close to signing deals with India in defence, communications: Pacific Command

@Dash
I urge you to give your view there

As you both will see GOI seems to have made up their mind of signing the foundational agreements.. But tangibly what's their to gain.. The strings attached to any US product be it LM F16 or Boeing F18 seems too huge.. The carrot dangled is more about access to technology and India gaining from it.. The question I asked was will US gov make an exception to us? Mist probably no as Senate and industry lobby would never want India to hold know how but rather depend upon them for as long as possible for every bit related to the platform and weapon system..

There are more carrots being dangled like India becoming the new MRO service center for global fleet and India can earn handsomely for next 25 years.. But what skills development it will enable India is a good question mark

I will stop here but urge you folks there to give views.. Here this will go off topic..

But of course both topics foundational agreements and Boeing F18 or LM F 16 are related..

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## MilSpec

Dash said:


> Sorry for the late response bro. I was traveling hence the late.
> To be honest you have answered my query and exceeded it by some points yet some part of it was answered and my bad I wasn't articulate enough.
> 
> What I was trying to zero in is at the potential that Boeing might have in creating a world class defense manufacturing industry for defense supplies and production for its various jets. Something China leveraged while working across industrial domain. What if tomorrow all defense companies set up manufacturing units in India? Unemployment will be answered along with advancement of technical skills?
> 
> Could we take this opportunity sans the IAF requirements?


Employment is good, these big companies have great talent managment programs, so yes, it will benefit local talent. but If the caveat is them coming to India expecting as share in the pie just because they are here, then it's doubt-full....Indian private sector needs to wake up and Indian public sector needs a shake up. Wake and Shake!

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> So as we both predicted its just LCA and Rafale according to PSK too..



That part is not entirely correct. Parrikar was talking about importing 1 more jet or two if necessary. That 2nd jet is either the LCA or a foreign jet. So we will still need 3 production lines.

And you and @Abingdonboy don't have to worry. Even if the MoD chooses Gripen, it won't endanger the LCA program. The LCA has higher priority as a program. That's why SAAB is packaging cooperation for LCA along with their own jet and trying to make a win-win situation.

The bigger problem is ADA seems to be more excited about the AMCA.


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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> That part is not entirely correct. Parrikar was talking about importing 1 more jet or two if necessary. That 2nd jet is either the LCA or a foreign jet. So we will still need 3 production lines.
> 
> And you and @Abingdonboy don't have to worry. Even if the MoD chooses Gripen, it won't endanger the LCA program. The LCA has higher priority as a program. That's why SAAB is packaging cooperation for LCA along with their own jet and trying to make a win-win situation.
> 
> The bigger problem is ADA seems to be more excited about the AMCA.


I would still much rather 400+ LCA (Mk.1, Mk.1A and MK.2) than 200 LCA and 200 Gripen. By the very nature of business it is against SAAB's interests to help develop the LCA to be a Gripen NG competitor (that the MK.2 would be). Hence all SAAB offers (for Gripen in the IAF and help with the LCA) should be rejected outright.

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## surya kiran

randomradio said:


> The bigger problem is ADA seems to be more excited about the AMCA.



Do not worry. Once, the Rafale thing is out of the way, the IAF will suddenly find love with the LCA. And will ask for Mk IA.

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## Abingdonboy

surya kiran said:


> Do not worry. Once, the Rafale thing is out of the way, the IAF will suddenly find love with the LCA. And will ask for Mk IA.


Haha, so true. The IAF is, rightly, concered that the babus/polticans will interpret "we love the LCA" to mean "the LCA is all we need".

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## PARIKRAMA

Few beautiful pictures (may be old also or already posted)





Credit to Rafale Addict






Credit to Frederic Boeckler





Credit to Alpha Rafale .. This is from Singapore Airshow






Again Credit to Alpha Rafale .. This is also from Singapore Airshow

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## halloweene

PARIKRAMA said:


> Few beautiful pictures (may be old also or already posted)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Credit to Rafale Addict
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Credit to Frederic Boeckler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Credit to Alpha Rafale .. This is from Singapore Airshow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again Credit to Alpha Rafale .. This is also from Singapore Airshow


Do you know who is Fred Boeckler?

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## PARIKRAMA

halloweene said:


> Do you know who is Fred Boeckler?



If I am not wrong he is in Istres and is part of Rafale program .. As Engineer Test Analyst.. Most famously piloted the 301 as the instrument plane analyst or in simple words a test pilot..

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> If I am not wrong he is in Istres and is part of Rafale program .. As Engineer Test Analyst.. Most famously piloted the 301 as the instrument plane analyst or in simple words a test pilot..



Hello Sir 

Love your passion and knowledge 

Was banned for a while but enjoyed reading your posts

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## Hulk

GURU DUTT said:


> 3 Rafales = AK-47s for entire police force
> 4 Rafales = 1 nuclear powered submarine
> 6 Rafales = 400 light helicopters K-226T or Ecureil
> 8 Rafales = 4 S-400 systems
> 10 Rafales = 1 aircraft carrier ...
> 36 Rafales = 18 Scorpene
> 
> I am telling this since from many months that abandon this Rafale deal, we are getting robbed.
> 
> We have NO REASON WITH US TO ACQUIRE IT. Bying rafale @270 million/per piece will be the biggest blunder in the Indian History.


I am beginning to see that we selected wrong fighter maybe. It maybe more capable but value for money is also a factor. Also, do we really need the extra.


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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> Hello Sir
> 
> Love your passion and knowledge
> 
> Was banned for a while but enjoyed reading your posts


Welcome back bro.. Was missing you for a long time.. Go nice and easy .. Don err to go again for a long holiday.. Need good members like you here ...

Don't get into flame bait wars.. Those threads are the reason why most of our friends go for forced holidays..

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> Welcome back bro.. Was missing you for a long time.. Go nice and easy .. Don err to go again for a long holiday.. Need good members like you here ...
> 
> Don't get into flame bait wars.. Those threads are the reason why most of our friends go for forced holidays..



You are absolutely right 

But that day I was just angry and hence could not control myself 

Any way ; nice to be back and also looking forward to interactions with 
@GURU DUTT @Abingdonboy and @MilSpec

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## Abingdonboy

Hulk said:


> I am beginning to see that we selected wrong fighter maybe. It maybe more capable but value for money is also a factor. Also, do we really need the extra.


+ @GURU DUTT
I suggest you read:

Real jet fighter prices : Rafale, F-35 2015-16.
Some of your worries will be put to rest.


+ @Stephen Cohen good to have you back brother

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## randomradio

surya kiran said:


> Do not worry. Once, the Rafale thing is out of the way, the IAF will suddenly find love with the LCA. And will ask for Mk IA.



It appears the LSA may get official backing. The maker says it can be delivered to the air force in 4 years.



Abingdonboy said:


> I would still much rather 400+ LCA (Mk.1, Mk.1A and MK.2) than 200 LCA and 200 Gripen. By the very nature of business it is against SAAB's interests to help develop the LCA to be a Gripen NG competitor (that the MK.2 would be). Hence all SAAB offers (for Gripen in the IAF and help with the LCA) should be rejected outright.



If the LSA happens, all this won't matter.

Anyway, right now there is no plan to buy more LCAs for the IAF. And there's no longer a Mk1/Mk1A/Mk2 designation as far as the IAF is concerned. They are looking at the LCA as just one version which will be upgraded whenever possible.

If orders are expected to go beyond the 100 Mk1As, then the configuration has to change drastically from what it is. I doubt they will wait for the LCA Mk2. And DRDO says the Mk2 will be ready only by 2024, that's very late.

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## surya kiran

randomradio said:


> It appears the LSA may get official backing. The maker says it can be delivered to the air force in 4 years.



I have read his comments on the other forum (finally its back).

IF, it does come online, then I hope it is a second line. Not at the cost of the LCA. 2 Indian planes is better.

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## randomradio

surya kiran said:


> I have read his comments on the other forum (finally its back).
> 
> IF, it does come online, then I hope it is a second line. Not at the cost of the LCA. 2 Indian planes is better.



The 120 LCAs will be built for IAF. That bit has already been settled. Now the only question is if ADA/HAL will deliver the Mk1As in time.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

I may disappoint you, but I do not believe in the LSA: it's like to want to make a very effective stealth fighter from a Mirage 3. The basic technology is too old.

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> I may disappoint you, but I do not believe in the LSA: it's like to want to make a very effective stealth fighter from a Mirage 3. The basic technology is too old.



If the LSA is a Gripen/LCA/F-16 with high TWR, high range, supercruise and large internal bays, then it will be a huge success. VLO is the icing on the cake.

Anyway, he's only using the aerofoil, not the airframe design. The F-22 uses the old NACA 6 series aerofoil, and that's older than the aerofoil he's planning on using. It's a proven design.


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## Masterhunter

randomradio said:


> If the LSA is a Gripen/LCA/F-16 with high TWR, high range, supercruise and large internal bays, then it will be a huge success. VLO is the icing on the cake.
> 
> Anyway, he's only using the aerofoil, not the airframe design. The F-22 uses the old NACA 6 series aerofoil, and that's older than the aerofoil he's planning on using. It's a proven design.



Plz any open source for this details of LSA .. I want to read about it..


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## randomradio

Masterhunter said:


> Plz any open source for this details of LSA .. I want to read about it..



You will have to lurk or join IDF. He will eventually start a Facebook page for the project.


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## halloweene

PARIKRAMA said:


> If I am not wrong he is in Istres and is part of Rafale program .. As Engineer Test Analyst.. Most famously piloted the 301 as the instrument plane analyst or in simple words a test pilot..


right. He is till test pilot there bbtw.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Update on Rafale Deal on Indian Media - Same as usual - No change - But one small but significant information*

+++
*Talks to acquire French Rafale fighter jets not yet over*
NAYANIMA BASU

NEW DELHI, MARCH 1: 
Negotiations to acquire 36 Rafale fighter jets from France for the Indian Air Force have still not been concluded even as a High Committee on Defence Cooperation (HCDC) is looking into the matter.

“A memorandum of understanding (MoU) between Indian and French Government has also been signed on January 25, 2016, in this regard. Negotiations with the French side are currently on,” Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told the Rajya Sabha Tuesday.

The MoU, which was signed during the visit of French President François Nicolas Hollande, was finalised when Prime Minister Narendra Modi made his trip to France in 2015.

*Since then the talks have been mainly stuck on the issue of pricing as India had demanded certain changes in the design.*

A High Committee on Defence Cooperation (HCDC) last discussed the Rafale deal when it met in Paris on January 12.

According to Parrikar, the committee had also discussed the purchase of these multirole combat aircraft manufactured by Dassault Aviation, a French defence giant, in fly-away condition.

Apart from this, the committee had also discussed the MoU signed between both governments on Defence equipment supplies.

(This article was published on March 1, 2016)
Talks to acquire French Rafale fighter jets not yet over | Business Line
+++

*Comment*
I am wondering what changes in the design implies? If what i understand is correct , design changes was so far assumed for M88-9 engine of 9 Tonnes of thrust for UAE. Bcz that requires a bigger air intake same like M88-3 program.

So is this the official confirmation in our media that India has in fact planned for 9 Tonnes engine over 8.3-8.5 Tonnes one?

If true then this goes in line with what PSK said here and what i had said in comments






Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 162

and as @Picdelamirand-oil also quoted





Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 165

The question to now wonder is
1. If IAF plans for an increased thrust with redesign in air intake for a M88-9 -9T variant then of course there is a 2 prong approach here

The cost part would increase much more than 8.3-8.5 T program of Safran and re design is costlier
Perhaps thats why Dassault may have a discussion going on for this particular customization as a tri party talks between Dassault/French side with UAE and India to share the cost
UAE deal may happen first followed by Indian deal to share the cost part.
2. It is beyond doubt in my mind that such big customization will imply India wont stop at just 36 and will of course look at making more Rafales as effectively this is a very customised Indian version and will be something like Rafale - F3 Inde or F3I or analogous to the term MKI

3. Its also making much sense now why the cost part was quoted much higher if reports in media about Euro 10-11.5 Bn are to be believed or closer to Rs 85-90K. Simply being if we look at air intake re design, checking and rechecking all parameters of present Rafale in terms of say Drag, Stealth, and all associated flying tech re calibration etc coupled with Spectra+weapon loads retests (as pointed by Pic), there is going to be an upswing in costs.. and its going to be much higher than presumed 8.3-8.5 T engine alone. And also the time factor will increase.

4. Most importantly, DM MP or MOD or CNC does not have much leverage now of reducing all costs associated with the massive customization as somewhere India has to agree or at least look at a ball park figure closer to Dassault figure which they are requesting as the work is pretty big in terms of time and monetary needs. India cannot quote Euro 7Bn and expects all things would get included here as it would be too much for asking such a customization.

5. In another equal probability, if deadline continues, harping costs angle, DM MP will let Rafale deal wither.. Unfortunately, its a shame that gullible masses will never come to know India had asked for a very top of the line customization and is expecting it in a price which is technically not feasible. 

Its getting a bit interesting now...

@Abingdonboy @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @anant_s @cerberus @knight11 @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @halloweene

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## randomradio

The discussions are apparently around customization and maintenance.

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## knight11

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Update on Rafale Deal on Indian Media - Same as usual - No change - But one small but significant information*
> 
> +++
> *Talks to acquire French Rafale fighter jets not yet over*
> NAYANIMA BASU
> 
> NEW DELHI, MARCH 1:
> Negotiations to acquire 36 Rafale fighter jets from France for the Indian Air Force have still not been concluded even as a High Committee on Defence Cooperation (HCDC) is looking into the matter.
> 
> “A memorandum of understanding (MoU) between Indian and French Government has also been signed on January 25, 2016, in this regard. Negotiations with the French side are currently on,” Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told the Rajya Sabha Tuesday.
> 
> The MoU, which was signed during the visit of French President François Nicolas Hollande, was finalised when Prime Minister Narendra Modi made his trip to France in 2015.
> 
> *Since then the talks have been mainly stuck on the issue of pricing as India had demanded certain changes in the design.*
> 
> A High Committee on Defence Cooperation (HCDC) last discussed the Rafale deal when it met in Paris on January 12.
> 
> According to Parrikar, the committee had also discussed the purchase of these multirole combat aircraft manufactured by Dassault Aviation, a French defence giant, in fly-away condition.
> 
> Apart from this, the committee had also discussed the MoU signed between both governments on Defence equipment supplies.
> 
> (This article was published on March 1, 2016)
> Talks to acquire French Rafale fighter jets not yet over | Business Line
> +++
> 
> *Comment*
> I am wondering what changes in the design implies? If what i understand is correct , design changes was so far assumed for M88-9 engine of 9 Tonnes of thrust for UAE. Bcz that requires a bigger air intake same like M88-3 program.
> 
> So is this the official confirmation in our media that India has in fact planned for 9 Tonnes engine over 8.3-8.5 Tonnes one?
> 
> If true then this goes in line with what PSK said here and what i had said in comments
> 
> View attachment 296167
> 
> Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 162
> 
> and as @Picdelamirand-oil also quoted
> 
> View attachment 296166
> 
> Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 165
> 
> The question to now wonder is
> 1. If IAF plans for an increased thrust with redesign in air intake for a M88-9 -9T variant then of course there is a 2 prong approach here
> 
> The cost part would increase much more than 8.3-8.5 T program of Safran and re design is costlier
> Perhaps thats why Dassault may have a discussion going on for this particular customization as a tri party talks between Dassault/French side with UAE and India to share the cost
> UAE deal may happen first followed by Indian deal to share the cost part.
> 2. It is beyond doubt in my mind that such big customization will imply India wont stop at just 36 and will of course look at making more Rafales as effectively this is a very customised Indian version and will be something like Rafale - F3 Inde or F3I or analogous to the term MKI
> 
> 3. Its also making much sense now why the cost part was quoted much higher if reports in media about Euro 10-11.5 Bn are to be believed or closer to Rs 85-90K. Simply being if we look at air intake re design, checking and rechecking all parameters of present Rafale in terms of say Drag, Stealth, and all associated flying tech re calibration etc coupled with Spectra+weapon loads retests (as pointed by Pic), there is going to be an upswing in costs.. and its going to be much higher than presumed 8.3-8.5 T engine alone. And also the time factor will increase.
> 
> 4. Most importantly, DM MP or MOD or CNC does not have much leverage now of reducing all costs associated with the massive customization as somewhere India has to agree or at least look at a ball park figure closer to Dassault figure which they are requesting as the work is pretty big in terms of time and monetary needs. India cannot quote Euro 7Bn and expects all things would get included here as it would be too much for asking such a customization.
> 
> 5. In another equal probability, if deadline continues, harping costs angle, DM MP will let Rafale deal wither.. Unfortunately, its a shame that gullible masses will never come to know India had asked for a very top of the line customization and is expecting it in a price which is technically not feasible.
> 
> Its getting a bit interesting now...
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @anant_s @cerberus @knight11 @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @halloweene




LOL you disclosed it Bro

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Update on Rafale Deal on Indian Media - Same as usual - No change - But one small but significant information*
> 
> +++
> *Talks to acquire French Rafale fighter jets not yet over*
> NAYANIMA BASU
> 
> NEW DELHI, MARCH 1:
> Negotiations to acquire 36 Rafale fighter jets from France for the Indian Air Force have still not been concluded even as a High Committee on Defence Cooperation (HCDC) is looking into the matter.
> 
> “A memorandum of understanding (MoU) between Indian and French Government has also been signed on January 25, 2016, in this regard. Negotiations with the French side are currently on,” Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told the Rajya Sabha Tuesday.
> 
> The MoU, which was signed during the visit of French President François Nicolas Hollande, was finalised when Prime Minister Narendra Modi made his trip to France in 2015.
> 
> *Since then the talks have been mainly stuck on the issue of pricing as India had demanded certain changes in the design.*
> 
> A High Committee on Defence Cooperation (HCDC) last discussed the Rafale deal when it met in Paris on January 12.
> 
> According to Parrikar, the committee had also discussed the purchase of these multirole combat aircraft manufactured by Dassault Aviation, a French defence giant, in fly-away condition.
> 
> Apart from this, the committee had also discussed the MoU signed between both governments on Defence equipment supplies.
> 
> (This article was published on March 1, 2016)
> Talks to acquire French Rafale fighter jets not yet over | Business Line
> +++
> 
> *Comment*
> I am wondering what changes in the design implies? If what i understand is correct , design changes was so far assumed for M88-9 engine of 9 Tonnes of thrust for UAE. Bcz that requires a bigger air intake same like M88-3 program.
> 
> So is this the official confirmation in our media that India has in fact planned for 9 Tonnes engine over 8.3-8.5 Tonnes one?
> 
> If true then this goes in line with what PSK said here and what i had said in comments
> 
> View attachment 296167
> 
> Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 162
> 
> and as @Picdelamirand-oil also quoted
> 
> View attachment 296166
> 
> Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 165
> 
> The question to now wonder is
> 1. If IAF plans for an increased thrust with redesign in air intake for a M88-9 -9T variant then of course there is a 2 prong approach here
> 
> The cost part would increase much more than 8.3-8.5 T program of Safran and re design is costlier
> Perhaps thats why Dassault may have a discussion going on for this particular customization as a tri party talks between Dassault/French side with UAE and India to share the cost
> UAE deal may happen first followed by Indian deal to share the cost part.
> 2. It is beyond doubt in my mind that such big customization will imply India wont stop at just 36 and will of course look at making more Rafales as effectively this is a very customised Indian version and will be something like Rafale - F3 Inde or F3I or analogous to the term MKI
> 
> 3. Its also making much sense now why the cost part was quoted much higher if reports in media about Euro 10-11.5 Bn are to be believed or closer to Rs 85-90K. Simply being if we look at air intake re design, checking and rechecking all parameters of present Rafale in terms of say Drag, Stealth, and all associated flying tech re calibration etc coupled with Spectra+weapon loads retests (as pointed by Pic), there is going to be an upswing in costs.. and its going to be much higher than presumed 8.3-8.5 T engine alone. And also the time factor will increase.
> 
> 4. Most importantly, DM MP or MOD or CNC does not have much leverage now of reducing all costs associated with the massive customization as somewhere India has to agree or at least look at a ball park figure closer to Dassault figure which they are requesting as the work is pretty big in terms of time and monetary needs. India cannot quote Euro 7Bn and expects all things would get included here as it would be too much for asking such a customization.
> 
> 5. In another equal probability, if deadline continues, harping costs angle, DM MP will let Rafale deal wither.. Unfortunately, its a shame that gullible masses will never come to know India had asked for a very top of the line customization and is expecting it in a price which is technically not feasible.
> 
> Its getting a bit interesting now...
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @anant_s @cerberus @knight11 @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @halloweene


I think The M-88 9t is not interesting and is probably not the reason of discussions. I'm not sure that the Rafale performance will be upgraded compare to the 8.3 t solution.
But there is other customisations to discuss

HMDS
Litening pod (a relatively complex integration)
8.3 t
weapons ==> Astra Brahmos?...

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## Taygibay

Fact check :
No one is getting the 9T engine! Repeat after me, *no one*!

What Picdelamirand-oil tried to point out is that it would require a cell re-design for new intakes.
That the aerodynamic qualities of the Rafale's design are extremely high and essential to it ...
so that a new front end would equate to a new aircraft and the research that goes with it.

At MLU maybe, if enough folks are interested so the shared funding mitigates the huge job!
As of today for India and UAE, that redesign will not take place and 8.3/8.4 full ECO compliant
engines are the best and only offer.

So that if there is a design change in your asking position, it must be about something else.

Good luck with that & back out of here, Tay.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Among all the ruckus one good line which takes the cake.. a wriiten reply in Rajya Sabha by DM MP*

*India to buy Rafale Fighter Planes from France*
THE HANS INDIA | Mar 02,2016 , 11:54 AM IST







As per the India-France Joint Statement issued by the two countries during the Prime Minister’s visit to France, Government of India conveyed to the Government of France that in view of the critical operational necessity for Multirole Combat Aircraft for Indian Air Force (IAF), *Government of India would like to acquire 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible*. A Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) between Indian and French Government has also been signed on January 25, 2016 in this regard.* Negotiations with the French side are currently on*. This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Naresh Agrawal in Rajya Sabha today. 

India to buy Rafale Fighter Planes from France

++

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## Picdelamirand-oil

If you have to redesign rafale airframe the best for Dassault would be to make a kind of J-31, with 2 M-88 of 11t thrust and integrate the weapon system of Rafale inside ===> more space for Radar Antenna size, conformal antenna etc...
They are able to do that very fast if somebody pay

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> If you have to redesign rafale airframe the best for Dassault would be to make a kind of J-31, with 2 M-88 of 11t thrust and integrate the weapon system of Rafale inside ===> more space for Radar Antenna size, conformal antenna etc...
> They are able to do that very fast if somebody pay



You know pic very well if and when the word use is *"Pay" *everything related to it will get stalled at DM MP level.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> You know pic very well if and when the word use is *"Pay" *everything related to it will get stalled at DM MP level.


It could be Saoudi Arabia or France for MLU or the two or India for AMCA...

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Among all the ruckus one good line which takes the cake.. a wriiten reply in Rajya Sabha by DM MP*
> 
> *India to buy Rafale Fighter Planes from France*
> THE HANS INDIA | Mar 02,2016 , 11:54 AM IST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As per the India-France Joint Statement issued by the two countries during the Prime Minister’s visit to France, Government of India conveyed to the Government of France that in view of the critical operational necessity for Multirole Combat Aircraft for Indian Air Force (IAF), *Government of India would like to acquire 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible*. A Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) between Indian and French Government has also been signed on January 25, 2016 in this regard.* Negotiations with the French side are currently on*. This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Naresh Agrawal in Rajya Sabha today.
> 
> India to buy Rafale Fighter Planes from France
> 
> ++


If only he would say "it is my intention to sign as quickly as possible" because delivery is entirely dependant on that happening FIRST. Delivery can be overnight but if you don't order until 2040 it makes no difference.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> If only he would say "it is my intention to sign as quickly as possible" because delivery is entirely dependant on that happening FIRST. Delivery can be overnight but if you don't order until 2040 it makes no difference.


For how long, the critical operational necessity for Multirole Combat Aircraft will it be binding?

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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> For how long, the critical operational necessity for Multirole Combat Aircraft will it be binding?


It was urgently reqired in 2007, it was critical according to the Indian PM in April 2015 and now......

To date it has all been lip service from polticans, if they actually agree it is critcal then why aren't they acting in an expeditious manner?

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## Taygibay

Abingdonboy said:


> then why aren't they acting in an expeditious manner?



... Force of habit?

0_o -----»»» [ ]

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## Immortan.Joe

Taygibay said:


> ... Force of habit?
> 
> 0_o -----»»» [ ]




I think most poster ,while criticizing Parrikar, are ignoring the fact that, if he/MoD does not prove that they haggled with France until they were ready to give up and leave the table, he would be eviscerated by Comptroller and Auditor general, whose most exciting part of work is creating drama by hyper-inflating statistics.

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## BON PLAN

Hello all,

Invited here by Gessler.

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## PARIKRAMA

BON PLAN said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Invited here by Gessler.


Welcome.. another French member here.. nice 

By any chance you are a professional?

Is Gessler back here?

OH here is the Introduction link...
New Introductions | Page 35

BTW @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @halloweene 
We got another new French friend here..

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## BON PLAN

PARIKRAMA said:


> Welcome.. another French member here.. nice
> 
> By any chance you are a professional?
> 
> Is Gessler back here?
> 
> OH here is the Introduction link...
> New Introductions | Page 35
> 
> BTW @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @halloweene
> We got another new French friend here..


I'm not a professionnal... just a Rafale fan for 30 years.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> Welcome.. another French member here.. nice
> 
> By any chance you are a professional?
> 
> Is Gessler back here?
> 
> OH here is the Introduction link...
> New Introductions | Page 35
> 
> BTW @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @halloweene
> We got another new French friend here..


Gessler was banned but it's a good guy, can we ask the moderator to end his ban?

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## BON PLAN

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Gessler was banned but it's a good guy, can we ask the moderator to end his ban?


YES !
But my vote is like peanuts because too new. 
It would be nice the Guy who invited me to be free to come back.

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Gessler was banned but it's a good guy, can we ask the moderator to end his ban?


I believe that could be a possibility.. You can do one thing.. You can start a conversation with few of the moderators.. A conversation is like a PM and that way you can keep it restricted to only moderators and yourself..

If you look for names, normally moderators are written with Red colors.. 

Notable Members

This link will give you names of all senior moderators and moderators..
Check with them and they will guide you better whom to talk..

You can start with say Waz, Wajsal, Oscar, Horus and HRK.. Normally these folks may be available more as other folks have a busy RL also...They will in turn guide you whom to contact and how to take it forward..

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## ultron

This deal dates back to 2005. This is like the longest deal in human history.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

ultron said:


> This deal dates back to 2005. This is like the longest deal in human history.


For the hawk it was 22 years.

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## BON PLAN

ultron said:


> This deal dates back to 2005. This is like the longest deal in human history.


There is a black hole near India.... Time doesn't spent there like in every other country.

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## Spectre

BON PLAN said:


> There is a black hole near India.... Time doesn't spent there like in every other country.



That was a clever remark. India has at times been referred to as black hole but for reasons far more racist than I assume you mean. 

On point - The delay has to do with priorities. In short despite the alarming shortfall in numbers, the present geo-political climate does not impose urgency.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Spectre said:


> That was a clever remark. India has at times been referred to as black hole but for reasons far more racist than I assume you mean.
> 
> On point - The delay has to do with priorities. In short despite the alarming shortfall in numbers, the present geo-political climate does not impose urgency.


The main problem is to increase the number of pilot. For that you need to fly more. You have two solutions :

Increase the fligh hours of existing aircrafts ===> need a good availability and there is problems with Mig and perhaps Sukhoi too
Buy new planes (possibly with good availability)


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## Abingdonboy

Spectre said:


> On point - The delay has to do with priorities. In short despite the alarming shortfall in numbers, the present geo-political climate does not impose urgency.


This is a very weak argument sir. It is not just a question to responding to the security threat (which by the way is becoming increasingly unfavourable for India contrary to what you seem to have asserted) but also a question of flight safety. Today MiG-21s and 27s are in service that are decades past their life spans and need to be replaced or does the "geo-poltical climate" negate that requirement also?

The delay has to do with incompetence, let us not delude ourselves it is borne out of hardheaded clear decsion making to prioritise, if that was the case the military wouldn't be returning billions in unspent funds every year.

Against a sanctioned strength of 42 fighter SQNs the IAF curently has less than 30 (some say it is as low as 24), this isn't about geo-poltical climates but minimum force levels. Threats can emerge at an instant before you have time to raise the requsite force levels and fighter jets take a LONG time to induct, this is why you have sanctioned strength, force levels, standing militaries and capability benchmarking. To say "we will only do X when the situation necessitates it" is all that is wrong with reactive decsion making that plagues India.

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## Spectre

Abingdonboy said:


> This is a very weak argument sir. It is not just a question to responding to the security threat (which by the way is becoming increasingly unfavourable for India contrary to what you seem to have asserted) but also a question of flight safety. Today MiG-21s and 27s are in service that are decades past their life spans and need to be replaced or does the "geo-poltical climate" negate that requirement also?
> 
> The delay has to do with incompetence, let us not delude ourselves it is borne out of hardheaded clear decsion making to prioritise, if that was the case the military wouldn't be returning billions in unspent funds every year.
> 
> Against a sanctioned strengto of 42 fighrer SQNs the IAF curently has less than 30 (some say it is as low as 24), this isn't about geo-poltical climates but minimum force levels. Threats can emerge at an instant before you have time to raise the requsite force levels and fighter jets take a LONG time to induct, this is why you have sanctioned strength, force levels, standing militaries and capability benchmarking. To say "we will only do X when the situation necessitates it" is all that is wrong with reactive decsion making that plagues India.



Good Arguments. I concede to all of them.

I didn't mean to say that the delay is intentional but just that in absence of clear and imminent threat hanging over our heads, the institutional lethargy is as of yet undisturbed. 



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> The main problem is to increase the number of pilot. For that you need to fly more. You have two solutions :
> 
> Increase the fligh hours of existing aircrafts ===> need a good availability and there is problems with Mig and perhaps Sukhoi too
> Buy new planes (possibly with good availability)



Certainly this is an issue but may be pilots from the retiring aircrafts can be accommodated in newer aircrafts. As such we are not going to see a deluge of new aircrafts anytime soon. Rafales if and when they come will come over a span of three or four years and by then equivalent or greater number of older migs would have retired. 

As for new pilots certainly your suggestions hold merit and are being worked upon by India.

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## Taygibay

Spectre said:


> the institutional lethargy is as of yet undisturbed.



How very poetic a way to put it! Quite my thing,  Tay.


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## Abingdonboy

Spectre said:


> I didn't mean to say that the delay is intentional but just that in absence of clear and imminent threat hanging over our heads, the institutional lethargy is as of yet undisturbed.


Well that makes sense and it's why post 26/11 the NSG look like this:





















But on 26/11 they were like this:















The question is, does the Indian leadership want to allow another crisis to occur before they do their jobs? 


I go back to the infamous quote that is all too perfect for India:


*'Nowhere have I seen such Lions led by such Lambs.-General Max von Gallwitz*

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## DrSomnath999

*Rafale On Instalments Is The Answer To Defence Ministry's Tight Budget *




When the Rafale fighter deal with France is inked later this year, the Ministry of Defence or MoD will have to pay nearly Rs 6000 crore for it, which is roughly one-tenth of the total cost of the deal, top Ministry officials told NDTV.

"I am not unduly worried," a top a Ministry official told NDTV, adding, "out of box thinking and imaginative accounting will see us through."

Although, final price negotiations are still on, the Rafale purchase deal is likely to cost India about Rs 60,000 crore.
Rafale On Instalments Is The Answer To Defence Ministry's Tight Budget

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## Abingdonboy

DrSomnath999 said:


> "*out of box thinking and imaginative accounting will see us through.*"


The MoD/Military are certainly good at the latter part (shifting funds from CAPEX to OPEX for example or lumping the vertan pensions bill with the defence budget) but not so much the former.

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## Spectre

Taygibay said:


> How very poetic a way to put it! Quite my thing,  Tay.



I know many people aren't going to like this but if anyone has analysed the budget in detail then the focus is to do more with less when it comes to defence. Oil Slump Bonanza which could have funded a major deal as many here have envisioned was diverted to rural sector in order to kick start rural economy and demand. 

The deal when it is signed (it will be - solely to save face) will be for the publicly stated numbers and increments would be need based in far future (>5 years) 

The rise and fall of emotions of it's proponents in India, the gloating, the envy, the tragedy and comedy - everything is quite Shakespearean in scope. However the time has come to temper expectations. 

I am actually in support of this down-sizing of expectations as Rafales provide a short-cut to solving our woes but in the long term doesn't address the root cause which is pathetic state of domestic industry when compared to western peers. The culture of innovation, efficiency and target based closure of projects need to be instilled if we are to ever become relatively self-sufficient. Sure this might hurt - badly at that - in short term but in long term gains will be worth while. The other danger of massive procurement of Rafales is geo-political which I will address in some other thread.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

*FCAS: a Franco-British budget of 2 billion for a prototype*

Google Translate

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## DrSomnath999

*A Rafale chases a drone came from Belgium*




A large drone came from Belgium, which operators lost control, crashed Monday afternoon in the Aisne after being remotely monitored by a Rafale. Here, a drone of the Belgian police.

REUTERS / Francois Lenoir

*A large drone came from Belgium, which operators lost control, crashed Monday afternoon in the Aisne after being remotely monitored by a Rafale.*
This is the story of a drone which does as its head. A large apparatus that distorts company to its owners has passed Monday the French-Belgian border before crashing in the Aisne, while remote monitoring by a Rafale .

At exactly 2:33 p.m., the Belgian authorities informed the French authorities that a drone large, operated by a private organization making the area of control, had just entered French airspace, said a spokesman for the Air Force. A minute later, the High defense authority alerted the air force who was off seven minutes later a burst of the air base of Saint Dizier, in the Haute-Marne.

*A drone launched at 140 km / h*


Half an hour later, the Rafale pilot saw the craft launched 140 km / h, a large drone but which carried no charge under his wing, rendering it harmless. Soon after, the drone of the engine stops, and he falls. "The Belgians who followed him have not destroyed because it was flying over built-up areas" in clear Tuesday Colonel Yves-Marie Guillou micro France Info .

The craft crashed in a field, causing no damage, in the municipality of Dizy-le-Gros, about fifty km from Reims. The police immediately went there and secured the area.
Google Traduction

*P.S perhaps remind me of shooting of balloons by Su30mki in western border 
but rafale didnt shoot that drone BTW*

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## Abingdonboy

Spectre said:


> I know many people aren't going to like this but if anyone has analysed the budget in detail then the focus is to do more with less when it comes to defence


I'm not so sure about that. "less" implies there budget has been cut when, in fact, it has remained rather static and in reality the CAPEX has been (marginally) _increased_ for 2016-17.



Spectre said:


> The deal when it is signed (it will be - solely to save face) will be for the publicly stated numbers and increments would be need based in far future (>5 years)



I'm sorry sir but this is illogical for a whole host of reasons. 36 Rafales is not an economical purchase as it wil be impossible for the IAF to sustain their high level of availability that they have stated they want- circa 90%, with such a limited number nor would such a measly order offer any form of "face saving" whatsoever as there would be 0 industrial benfits (the door is wide open for "fake in India" chants to be hurled at Modi), this limited number would be increidbly expensive to maintain (leaving the door open for unlimited scathing CAG reports) and crucially it wouldn't address the crippling force depletion thathas and will continue to hit the IAF.

It is 0 Rafales or 100+, it is as simple as that, there is no middle ground that would offer a "face saving" option because that defies all logic. 



Spectre said:


> I am actually in support of this down-sizing of expectations as Rafales provide a short-cut to solving our woes but in the long term doesn't address the root cause which is pathetic state of domestic industry when compared to western peers.



This is neither here nor there as the Rafale orders are not going to affect the domestic efforts (see LCA) in any shape or form, rather they would actully be a boon for such efforts (ToT and techical expertise of one of the world's most capable aerospace giants). Furthermore, one cannot ignore the operational requirements of the IAF. They are mandated to acheive 42 sanctioned SQNs by 2025, with the current rate of inductions (MKI and proposed LCA and FGFA) and de-inductions (MiG-21, 27, some Jags) this simply won't be possible without a third production line in India (MKI/FGFA, LCA and Rafale). My friend @PARIKRAMA can provide the exact figures and analysis of how to reach 42 SQNs by 2025 and 50 by 2030 (as the GoI has long since envisaged)

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> India for AMCA...



Design's frozen. First flight is hopefully in 2019. But that's possible only after the FSED phase is approved.



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> The main problem is to increase the number of pilot. For that you need to fly more. You have two solutions :
> 
> Increase the fligh hours of existing aircrafts ===> need a good availability and there is problems with Mig and perhaps Sukhoi too
> Buy new planes (possibly with good availability)



We chose both. 

Mig-29 availability is good. Above 70, 75%.

Mig-21 availability is below 50%.

@BON PLAN
Welcome to the forum.

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## PARIKRAMA

*SOUNDBYTES FROM DM MP*
+++
*Adequate funds kept for Rafale deal: Parrikar*
Updated: Friday, March 4, 2016, 17:11 [IST] 

New Delhi, March 4: *The government has kept "adequate money" for the purchase of Rafale fighter jets from France while provisions have been made to continue the process of raising a mountain strike corps, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said here on Friday.*

Addressing a press conference here, he said the total defence budget for 2016-17 was Rs.3,41,000 crore including defence pensions and this came to 17.23 percent of overall expenditure of Rs.19,78,060 crore.

As Rs.70,000 crore had been allocated in this year's budget for defence acquisition, he said that excluding defence pensions, the budget figure was Rs.2,59,000 crore which was 13.09 percent of overall expenditure.

*To a query on the purchase of Rafale fighter jets, which has been stuck over price negotiations with France, Parrikar said that the government had "kept adequate money for Rafale deal".*

*"I am a tough negotiator. Let me save money for the nation," he said in answer to another query.*

*"It is better to cross the bridge when the time comes... A good buyer does not put his weakness in front. He keeps his cards close to his chest. Please do not ask me to reveal the card in national interest," he said.*

Answering a query on a China-centric mountain strike corps, which was cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) in September 2013, Parrikar said: "Whatever arrangements need to be made, have been done."

Asked about large sums to be spent on salaries and pensions in the wake of expected decision on the Seventh Pay Commission, Parrikar said the "expenditure is inevitable."

*However, he said the government was keen on rationalising the strength of the army through a process undertaken by the army itself.

"We have asked army to do the exercise," he said.*

*Parrikar said that another way of cutting down expenditure was use of simulators in training of pilots and also drivers.*

On the specific question of recommendations of the Seventh Pay Commission which are under consideration of the government, Parrikar said necessary steps will be taken by the ministry after discussions over the next two-three weeks.

The minister said that Rs.77,000 crore had been allocated for capital acquisition in 2015-16 and the anticipated spending was Rs.66,000 crore.

He said it was for the first time that the defence ministry took stock of military sales through an account held by the US government and found that due to "ill-management of this account, slightly less than $ 3 billion piled up".

"In May-June last year, we reviewed it. We have recalibrated it has come down from about $3 billion to $1.8 billlon," he said.

He said Rs.6,000 crore had been paid last year to the US for direct military sales and the ministry had saved money from its budget allocations.

"We have saved $700 to $800 million of foreign exchange," he said, adding that the ministry had been able to save about Rs.3,000 crore more through other measures.

The minister said that modernisation of forces was very important for the government and contracts of Rs.1,20,000 crore had been signed during the 21 months of the Modi government and contracts for about Rs.32,000 crore were in the process of final approval.

IANS


http://www.oneindia.com/india/adequate-funds-kept-for-rafale-deal-parrikar-2031686.html
+++

@Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Vauban @anant_s @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @knight11 @cerberus @Levina @Picdelamirand-oil 

DM MP mentions about Rafale, being a "Tough Negotiator ", rationalizing the strength of army and use of simulators for training pilots...

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> *SOUNDBYTES FROM DM MP*
> +++
> *Adequate funds kept for Rafale deal: Parrikar*
> Updated: Friday, March 4, 2016, 17:11 [IST]
> 
> New Delhi, March 4: *The government has kept "adequate money" for the purchase of Rafale fighter jets from France while provisions have been made to continue the process of raising a mountain strike corps, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said here on Friday.*
> 
> Addressing a press conference here, he said the total defence budget for 2016-17 was Rs.3,41,000 crore including defence pensions and this came to 17.23 percent of overall expenditure of Rs.19,78,060 crore.
> 
> As Rs.70,000 crore had been allocated in this year's budget for defence acquisition, he said that excluding defence pensions, the budget figure was Rs.2,59,000 crore which was 13.09 percent of overall expenditure.
> 
> *To a query on the purchase of Rafale fighter jets, which has been stuck over price negotiations with France, Parrikar said that the government had "kept adequate money for Rafale deal".*
> 
> *"I am a tough negotiator. Let me save money for the nation," he said in answer to another query.*
> 
> *"It is better to cross the bridge when the time comes... A good buyer does not put his weakness in front. He keeps his cards close to his chest. Please do not ask me to reveal the card in national interest," he said.*
> 
> Answering a query on a China-centric mountain strike corps, which was cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) in September 2013, Parrikar said: "Whatever arrangements need to be made, have been done."
> 
> Asked about large sums to be spent on salaries and pensions in the wake of expected decision on the Seventh Pay Commission, Parrikar said the "expenditure is inevitable."
> 
> *However, he said the government was keen on rationalising the strength of the army through a process undertaken by the army itself.
> 
> "We have asked army to do the exercise," he said.*
> 
> *Parrikar said that another way of cutting down expenditure was use of simulators in training of pilots and also drivers.*
> 
> On the specific question of recommendations of the Seventh Pay Commission which are under consideration of the government, Parrikar said necessary steps will be taken by the ministry after discussions over the next two-three weeks.
> 
> The minister said that Rs.77,000 crore had been allocated for capital acquisition in 2015-16 and the anticipated spending was Rs.66,000 crore.
> 
> He said it was for the first time that the defence ministry took stock of military sales through an account held by the US government and found that due to "ill-management of this account, slightly less than $ 3 billion piled up".
> 
> "In May-June last year, we reviewed it. We have recalibrated it has come down from about $3 billion to $1.8 billlon," he said.
> 
> He said Rs.6,000 crore had been paid last year to the US for direct military sales and the ministry had saved money from its budget allocations.
> 
> "We have saved $700 to $800 million of foreign exchange," he said, adding that the ministry had been able to save about Rs.3,000 crore more through other measures.
> 
> The minister said that modernisation of forces was very important for the government and contracts of Rs.1,20,000 crore had been signed during the 21 months of the Modi government and contracts for about Rs.32,000 crore were in the process of final approval.
> 
> IANS
> 
> 
> http://www.oneindia.com/india/adequate-funds-kept-for-rafale-deal-parrikar-2031686.html
> +++
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Vauban @anant_s @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @knight11 @cerberus @Levina @Picdelamirand-oil
> 
> DM MP mentions about Rafale, being a "Tough Negotiator ", rationalizing the strength of army and use of simulators for training pilots...


I've been saying it for a while, MP is using this deal to play at being "tough" and is using some very exotic (but immature) tactics which is why the door has now suddenly been opened to SAAB, Boeing and LM. I hope this nonsense leads to a good deal sooner rather than later because this is getting very tiring indeed and just for 36 jets, we need to move onto the FAR bigger requiremnt for 100++ MMRCA.

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> Design's frozen. First flight is hopefully in 2019. But that's possible only after the FSED phase is approved.
> 
> 
> 
> We chose both.
> 
> Mig-29 availability is good. Above 70, 75%.
> 
> Mig-21 availability is below 50%.
> 
> @BON PLAN
> Welcome to the forum.


Thank you Randomradio  .


----------



## INDIAPOSITIVE

JAMNAGAR: India is mulling manufacturing one more line of fighter aircraft to replenish its dwindling fleet and a decision in this regard is likely to be taken in a year's time, Air Chief MarshalArup Rahasaid today.

The Chief of Air Staff said the second line of fighter jets will be in addition to light combat aircraft Tejas and 36 Rafale planes that India will procure from France.

"Definitely they (government) are thinking to set up one more line of fighter aircraft in a year under the Make in India project so that the dwindling fighter aircraft fleet can be replaced within shortest possible time," Raha said.

He was asked how theIAFis going to replenish the diminishing number of its fighter aircraft.

"This plan is going to materialise in a year's time... Addition of new aircraft to the IAF fleet through indigenous technology is also being worked out, with the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) providing 120 LCA," he said.

The IAF chief said the Rafael multi-role fighter plane contract with France was likely to be through soon.

"Rafale contract is likely to be through as a lot of progress has been made. The outcome will be substantial in the first year itself. We are yet to work out modalities. The government is willing to spend more to improve operational capability of the armed forces."

Raha was speaking at a press conference held atJamnagarair force base where PresidentPranab Mukherjeeawarded two units of the IAF --- 28 Equipment Depot and 19 Helicopter Unit --- with Presidential Colours and Standard, respectively.

India is likely to get 36 multi-role fighters from France- basedDassault Aviationunder a government-to-government agreement, which is under negotiations


http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-of-fighter-jets-iaf/articleshow/51258075.cms

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## Great Sachin

good news


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## Levina

PARIKRAMA said:


> down expenditure was use of simulators in training of pilots and also drivers


Gosh!!!
Are they serious???
I don't know about pilots but while giving my simulation test (for D/L) I ended up with simulator sickness.

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## CHD

Indian mulling the mulling of mulling to mulling something.

Aur odhar Rafael aur Tejas ki shadi ki umar bhi nikal jayegi and india will still be mulling.


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## GORKHALI

These people are good at making Khichdi only.Inventory Control is just horrible as it looks from outside.


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## Abingdonboy

Levina said:


> Gosh!!!
> Are they serious???
> I don't know about pilots but while giving my simulation test (for D/L) I ended up with simulator sickness.


The kind of simulators in question would be "Full mission simulators":





(the above is an IN MiG-29K full mission simulator)






With full 360 degree visual system allowing for takeoff and landing, avoidance and attack maneuvers and can be synced with mutliple systems to allow for large force engagment.

As the simulator banks and pitches there should be little " simulator sickness" as that only happens when your brain has mixed signals (ie your eyes are telling your brain it is moving but the rest of your body tells it it is static).

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## Levina

Abingdonboy said:


> As the simulator banks and pitches there should be little " simulator sickness" as that only happens when your brain has mixed signals (ie your eyes are telling your brain it is moving but the rest of your body tells it it is static


 I tried it in Ferrari world too but the same happened again. 
I am not joking. 

Anyways if this helps pilots in their real life missions I have no objections.

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## Abingdonboy

Levina said:


> I tried it in Ferrari world too but the same happened again.


Is that the Ferrari world at Yas Marina?

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## Levina

Abingdonboy said:


> Is that the Ferrari world at Yas Marina?


Yessshhhhhh!
IFerrari world has just one theme park and it's in UAE( Abudhabi, Yas Island).

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## Abingdonboy

Levina said:


> Yessshhhhhh!
> I guess Ferrari world has just one theme park and it's in UAE( Abudhabi, Yas Island).


Very cool! RIght inside the F1 circuit.

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## Levina

Abingdonboy said:


> Very cool! RIght inside the F1 circuit.


It has the fastest roller coaster too. 

Oops! 
Off topic.

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## Bratva

Makes me wonder if 126 jets deal were signed as initially envisioned. It would have costed India 25-27 Billion Dollars. Now if you want to go beyond 36 and closer to 100. The cost escalations will make you bring closer to the price tag of 126. So now you would be paying more for lesser number of jets


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## Abingdonboy

Bratva said:


> Makes me wonder if 126 jets deal were signed as initially envisioned. It would have costed India 25-27 Billion Dollars. Now if you want to go beyond 36 and closer to 100. The cost escalations will make you bring closer to the price tag of 126. So now you would be paying more for lesser number of jets


That is not a very sensible way of calculating the total cost for buying 126 Rafales as the intial costs will always be high as they have to pay for everything; training, infrastructure, spares, weapons etc etc every subsequent unit beyond a point will not have the start up costs attatched to it and further with localised production and higher rate of production costs can be brought down even more.

The 126 requirement for MMRCA remains unfulfilled and will be by Rafales although the total number of Rafales on order/in service by 2025 will be closer to 180 and by 2030 will be greater than 230 as the IN requires a large fleet of Rafales for themselves.

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## randomradio

Bratva said:


> Makes me wonder if 126 jets deal were signed as initially envisioned. It would have costed India 25-27 Billion Dollars. Now if you want to go beyond 36 and closer to 100. The cost escalations will make you bring closer to the price tag of 126. So now you would be paying more for lesser number of jets



The cost of acquisition of Rafales during MMRCA was $120M per aircraft. Today it is less than $100M, most likely $85M, but with new engines.


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## Armani

Welcome to PDF

@BON PLAN

++

Prasun Sengupta about Manohar Parrikar:

"At the very least, the MoD now has a RM who is discerning & is willing to take his job seriously & earn his monthly salary & perks, unlike all his predecessors over the past 66 years!"

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3545138702780178046&postID=5218993978233472511

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## Bratva

Abingdonboy said:


> The 126 requirement for MMRCA remains unfulfilled and will be by Rafales although the total number of Rafales on order/in service by 2025 will be closer to 180 and by 2030 will be greater than 230 as the IN requires a large fleet of Rafales for themselves.



You should not propagate your PoV as a universal fact. Indian media quoted a 20 billion dollar deal back in the day and your own government accepted that humongous cost was the reason they scrapped 126 rafael deal. 




> France and Qatar signed a 6.3 billion euro ($7.02 billion) deal on Monday for the sale of 24 Rafale fighter jets, an accord President Francois Hollande hailed as a mark of Gulf Arab regard for French regional strategy including its firm line on Iran.
> 
> The contract - the third this year for Dassault AVMD.PA after deals to sell Rafale jets to Egypt and India - also includes MBDA missiles, and the training of 36 Qatari pilots and 100 technicians by the French military.





Who says Rafael price will come down. France will rarely budge down from the price at which it sold Rafael to egypt and qatar. 

From Qatar deal single rafael price comes at 290 Million dollar. Lets take at face value what you say that price will eventually come down to 200 million ignoring the fact inflation will not affect cost escalations in next 10 year . So after initial order of 36. How much 36,72 or 100 jets would cost at 200 million dollar a piece vis a vis the the amount of 36,72 or 100 jets would have cost in initial deal of 126 Rafael jets which we pegged at 20-22 billiond dollar in 2012. IIRC the sticking point in the collapsed deal was that India wanted to bought jets at a price which were quoted in 2007-2008 ? 

Are french bad businessmen that they are going to sell you jets at a lower prie than that of Egypt or Qatar deals ? 


Considering all this facts, how can you say that Indian planners are willing to raise rafael fleet to 100+ and want to spend more money on rafael than the original deal when the sticking point to this day remains the Price of Rafael ?



randomradio said:


> The cost of acquisition of Rafales during MMRCA was $120M per aircraft. Today it is less than $100M, most likely $85M, but with new engines.



Who says that ? @Taygibay Do you want to correct the gentelman considering what Rafael costed to Egypt and Qatar ?


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## Immortan.Joe

Bratva said:


> You should not propagate your PoV as a universal fact. Indian media quoted a 20 billion dollar deal back in the day and your own government accepted that humongous cost was the reason they scrapped 126 rafael deal.



Learn the difference between sticker price and Life cycle cost. Sticker price of Rafael is same as that of F-16V.

And biggest hurdle against Rafale was on MII, and if this deal get scrapped, it would again be because of MII, not price.

All aircraft in this category cost same.







Bratva said:


> Who says Rafael price will come down. France will rarely budge down from the price at which it sold Rafael to egypt and qatar.
> 
> Are french bad businessmen that they are going to sell you jets at a lower prie than that of Egypt or Qatar deals ?



The price per unit would come down because India is eventually planning to have close to 200 Rafaels, and even more if Navy choose it (which it probably would) to fly from IAC-2 (and even IAC-1 if Dassault could prove that Rafael-M could fly from STOBAR carriers without and modification) three times more than Egypt and Qatar.

Also India is paying hard cash compared to Egypt where credit was provided.

India would either have zero or 180+ Rafales (similar to India having 300+ Su30MKI) for simple reason that for size of Indian airforce, anything less than 100 does not make any economic sense.

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## Bratva

Immortan.Joe said:


> Learn the difference between sticker price and Life cycle cost. Sticker price of Rafael is same as that of F-16V.
> 
> And biggest hurdle against Rafale was on MII, and if this deal get scrapped, it would again be because of MII, not price.
> 
> All aircraft in this category cost same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The price per unit would come down because India is eventually planning to have close to 200 Rafaels, and even more if Navy choose it (which it probably would) to fly from IAC-2 (and even IAC-1 if Dassault could prove that Rafael-M could fly from STOBAR carriers without and modification) three times more than Egypt and Qatar.
> 
> Also India is paying hard cash compared to Egypt where credit was provided.
> 
> India would either have zero or 180+ Rafales (similar to India having 300+ Su30MKI) for simple reason that for size of Indian airforce, anything less than 100 does not make any economic sense.




Considering the inflation, currency flactuations causes cost escalation each year, How much cost will be brought down due to this hugh theoretical purchase in your opinion considering one rafael is costing 290 million ? that it will still fall in the same bracket of 20-22 billion dollar which were the initial price of 126 rafael deal ?


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## Picdelamirand-oil

Bratva said:


> Considering the inflation, currency flactuations causes cost escalation each year, How much cost will be brought down due to this hugh theoretical purchase in your opinion considering one rafael is costing 290 million ? that it will still fall in the same bracket of 20-22 billion dollar which were the initial price of 126 rafael deal ?


I propose you to analyse the Rafale deal with Egypt and Qatar:
Qatar Deal Helps France Set Export Record
In France, Relief Over Rafale Sale to Egypt
The Qatar deal is quoted € 6.3 Billions, $ 7.1 Billions for 24 Rafale and some unknown weapons and services related to Rafale
The Egypt deal is quoted € 5.2 Billions, $ 5.9 Billions for 24 Rafale 1 Frigate, weapons for Rafale and Frigate and some unknown services.

For the second deal we know that a frigate cost roughly 0.8 Billions and that the weapons is costing araound 1 billion.
So for Rafale and services you only have € 4.1 Billions that is 171 million per copy.

Now if you consider that one Rafale flight hours cost 10000 $ and that you can consider 250h/year you have to add $ 2.5 Millions by year to the fly away cost if the contract is with this kind of service. It's just an example to show that this cost of 171 millions is not the fly away cost. The Rafale fly away cost is around 73 Millions.
So now look at the Qatar deal 6.3 Billions for 24 Rafale make one copy to 262.5 Millions. How is such a difference possible?
I don't know the details but I have seen an article in French saying that we will create a squadron in France with Qatari pilots and technicians using French Rafale to learn how to pilot and maintain the 24 Rafale of the deal. It will be for 36 Pilots and 100 technicians. It certainly cost something.

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## randomradio

Bratva said:


> Who says that ?



Defence Minister Parrikar.



> @Taygibay Do you want to correct the gentelman considering what Rafael costed to Egypt and Qatar ?



Tay has made a thread to cure your misconceptions of costs. I suggest reading that.

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## BON PLAN

Armani said:


> Welcome to PDF
> 
> @BON PLAN
> 
> ++
> 
> Prasun Sengupta about Manohar Parrikar:
> 
> "At the very least, the MoD now has a RM who is discerning & is willing to take his job seriously & earn his monthly salary & perks, unlike all his predecessors over the past 66 years!"


Hi Armani !!!
Happy to see you again.



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> I propose you to analyse the Rafale deal with Egypt and Qatar:
> Qatar Deal Helps France Set Export Record
> In France, Relief Over Rafale Sale to Egypt
> The Qatar deal is quoted € 6.3 Billions, $ 7.1 Billions for 24 Rafale and some unknown weapons and services related to Rafale
> The Egypt deal is quoted € 5.2 Billions, $ 5.9 Billions for 24 Rafale 1 Frigate, weapons for Rafale and Frigate and some unknown services.
> 
> For the second deal we know that a frigate cost roughly 0.8 Billions and that the weapons is costing araound 1 billion.
> So for Rafale and services you only have € 4.1 Billions that is 171 million per copy.
> 
> Now if you consider that one Rafale flight hours cost 10000 $ and that you can consider 250h/year you have to add $ 2.5 Millions by year to the fly away cost if the contract is with this kind of service. It's just an example to show that this cost of 171 millions is not the fly away cost. The Rafale fly away cost is around 73 Millions.
> So now look at the Qatar deal 6.3 Billions for 24 Rafale make one copy to 262.5 Millions. How is such a difference possible?
> I don't know the details but I have seen an article in French saying that we will create a squadron in France with Qatari pilots and technicians using French Rafale to learn how to pilot and maintain the 24 Rafale of the deal. It will be for 36 Pilots and 100 technicians. It certainly cost something.


The Qatar weapons package is huge. A lot of Meteor, a lot of Scalp cruise missile, some exocet, a lot of MICA and I think some Hammer AASM missile. This is part of the price.

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## Abingdonboy

Bratva said:


> Indian media quoted a 20 billion dollar deal back in the day


Yes, the India media had done so, the same fools with vested interests who are getting paid to quote $13BN for 36 jets at the present time.



Bratva said:


> and your own government accepted that humongous cost was the reason they scrapped 126 rafael deal.


Nope, cost was not the issue but the workshare and other structural issues to do with the contract had become unworkable.



Bratva said:


> From Qatar deal single rafael price comes at 290 Million dollar. Lets take at face value what you say that price will eventually come down to 200 million ignoring the fact inflation will not affect cost escalations in next 10 year . So after initial order of 36. How much 36,72 or 100 jets would cost at 200 million dollar a piece vis a vis the the amount of 36,72 or 100 jets would have cost in initial deal of 126 Rafael jets which we pegged at 20-22 billiond dollar in 2012.


You are making the common mistake of dividing a total procurement cost by the number of units to beleive you have arrived at a unit price. i would have expected a "think tank" would be more informed on these matters so as to not fall for such a trap. The deals for Qatar and Egypt have been of very small quantities and the deals have included all requsite intial start up costs (training, infrastructure, spares and weapons) just like the first off the shelf 36 deal for the IAF will require. But beyond a point the marginal cost begins to drop as you take into account economies of scale, localised production and sunk costs. Furthermore once the Mérignac production line is churning out Rafales at full capacity and an Indian production line is doing the same unit costs will plummet further.

The true cost of a Rafale in 2016 is:



Abingdonboy said:


> By the way, using Tay's average Rafale cost of 73 million euros per Rafale, this would come to $79 million USD per Rafale at the current ER, even assuming a cost increase of 5% since 2014 (unlikely but let's project worse case) the Rafale's average unit cost would be *$83 million USD*.
> 
> Discounting the M version entirely (as this would play no part in the IAF procurement), the B/C's average unit cost comes to around 71 million Euros or around $78 million USD at today's ER. Again, assuming a 5% cost increase from 2014, an average B/C would cost *$82 million USD *today.
> 
> The Rafale C (single seat AF version) is about $74 million USD at today's ER, assuming a 5% price increase since 2014, this would be around *$77 million USD* today.
> 
> 
> Full break down is as follows:
> 
> -Rafale B (two seat AF version)--->$80* million USD (2014)--->*$84* million USD *(in 2016 assuming a 5%** price increase from 2014 to 2016)
> -Rafale C (single seat AF version)---> $74* million USD (2014)---> *$77* million USD* (in 2016 assuming a 5%** price increase from 2014 to 2016)
> -Rafale M (single seat naval version, note no two seat naval version exists as of now) $85* million USD (2014)---> *$89* million USD* (in 2016 assuming a 5%** price increase from 2014 to 2016)
> 
> *all EUR-USD ERs are as of 27/2/2016 and thus subject to some degree of fluctuation depending on the ER base the GoI would be using as part of their ongoing talks with Dassualt
> 
> **5% is a "worst case" scenerio but worth factoring in, the unit price may actually have inflated well below this level


Real jet fighter prices : Rafale, F-35 2015-16.

(based on sources provided by our knowledgeable friend @Taygibay )

It is grossly unrepresentative of the Rafale's true cost to start taking account of the support packages that are provided to the induvidual customers as all nations will have different requirements and thus different support packages. 



Bratva said:


> IIRC the sticking point in the collapsed deal was that India wanted to bought jets at a price which were quoted in 2007-2008 ?


Again, this is inaccurate.

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## sathya

It set for 2016-17

Nothing can be expected in the next 20 days..

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## PARIKRAMA

Prasun K Sengupta gave a reply to a question in his blog

_yesterday was the RM's official briefing to the media about the annual defence budget. Your first observation relates to a question asked by a female reporter about the Rafale deal & when will it be signed & how many will be procured & what are the reasons for the delays. In reply, the RM said that it will be unwise to reveal details of on-going negotiations & how exactly they are being conducted. _
_*Interpretation: *_

_*the negotiations involve indirect industrial offsets & also quid pro quo procurements, *_
_*i.e. in return for procuring X number of Rafales, France will also partner with India on producing nuclear attack submarines (SSN). *_
_*Mind you, he did not say or spell all this out on-record, but that's my interpretation based on news-inputs of mine from various players & parties who are involved in the on-going negotiations. *_
In another comment he further said
"Industrial partnerships will involve SSNs, as I have spelt out above, plus in other related military areas like MGS (truck-mounted 155mm/52-cal howitzers) & 8 x 8 wheeled APC."

Its inline with what i earlier said that we are looking at Barracuda tech for our SSNs and Rafale tech going into AMCA plan.

@Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar

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## Ankit Kumar

PARIKRAMA said:


> Prasun K Sengupta gave a reply to a question in his blog
> 
> yesterday was the RM's official briefing to the media about the annual defence budget. Your first observation relates to a question asked by a female reporter about the Rafale deal & when will it be signed & how many will be procurlieingat are the reasons for the delays. In reply, the RM said that it will be unwise to reveal details of on-going negotiations & how exactly they are being conducted.
> Interpretation:
> the negotiations involve indirect industrial offsets & also quid pro quo procurements,
> i.e. in return for procuring X number of Rafales, France will also partner with India on producing nuclear attack submarines (SSN).
> Mind you, he did not say or spell all this out on-record, but that's my interpretation based on news-inputs of mine from various players & parties who are involved in the on-going negotiations.
> In another comment he further said
> "Industrial partnerships will involve SSNs, as I have spelt out above, plus in other related military areas like MGS (truck-mounted 155mm/52-cal howitzers) & 8 x 8 wheeled APC."
> 
> Its inline with what i earlier said that we are looking at Barracuda tech for our SSNs and Rafale tech going into AMCA plan.
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar



Does this mean the nuke reactor ? That's the major thing. 

But I feel if we are really looking for a foreign partner we should try both Russian and French. 

I don't think BAE will be happy sharing Astute secrets. 

Personally given a choice I would first stick to procuring more Akulas , not 1 or 2, but upto half dozen. There are 4 boats , simply gathering snow in Russian shipyards, the Russian Navy intends to mordernise these but money.... 

When we talk about SSNs, we talk about a life of ~35 years easily. The Akulas started rolling out in 1988s , and after 1990s have spend 90% of the time at harbour or shipyards. A refit and they are as good as brand new. Also the thing to note is, the perception that Russia lags west in electronics and sensors is all false, Syria should well tell that as allied forces have themselves admitted western Syria is almost a no fly zone for them. 

Comparing the Chinese, their SSNs may have etter weapons but when it comes to sensors and stealth , their Type 095 is expected to catch up the Russian Victor and Sierra class. 


All I mean by mentioning all these is that indiginious SSNs are as far away as INS Vishal. And as its our first we should be cautious and do not hasten or tie it up with any other project. 

And in the meanwhile we have our hands on the eggs. GOLDEN EGGs and we are currently missing it. 

As for Rafale , I have been told that will take some time , not because of any negative issues, but because its an iceberg. We are seeing only 3% of it.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Prasun K Sengupta gave a reply to a question in his blog
> 
> _yesterday was the RM's official briefing to the media about the annual defence budget. Your first observation relates to a question asked by a female reporter about the Rafale deal & when will it be signed & how many will be procured & what are the reasons for the delays. In reply, the RM said that it will be unwise to reveal details of on-going negotiations & how exactly they are being conducted. _
> _*Interpretation: *_
> 
> _*the negotiations involve indirect industrial offsets & also quid pro quo procurements, *_
> _*i.e. in return for procuring X number of Rafales, France will also partner with India on producing nuclear attack submarines (SSN). *_
> _*Mind you, he did not say or spell all this out on-record, but that's my interpretation based on news-inputs of mine from various players & parties who are involved in the on-going negotiations. *_
> In another comment he further said
> "Industrial partnerships will involve SSNs, as I have spelt out above, plus in other related military areas like MGS (truck-mounted 155mm/52-cal howitzers) & 8 x 8 wheeled APC."
> 
> Its inline with what i earlier said that we are looking at Barracuda tech for our SSNs and Rafale tech going into AMCA plan.
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar


I had said the same a few days back from what I had heard, as @Ankit Kumar rightly points out- what we see'hear is just the tip of the ice berg and there is a lot going on behind the scenes that we don't know. This is why I find it hilarious that all these Indian members are loosing all hope in this deal and calling to go with Boeing (that is making no such "sweetened" offers) or scrap it all together and then there are the Chinese/Pak members mocking India for its inability to get just 36 jets. When the nuances are out in the open and everything is clear the reaction of these members is going to be truly delicious, this is the deal of the decade for India and will dwarf even the MKI's significance at the time it was signed.

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## BON PLAN

NO NEWS ABOUT SAUDI ARABIA INTEREST IN RAFALE ?

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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> NO NEWS ABOUT SAUDI ARABIA INTEREST IN RAFALE ?



It was announced only in Jan. Give it a year.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

BON PLAN said:


> NO NEWS ABOUT SAUDI ARABIA INTEREST IN RAFALE ?


Le Rafale a-t-il réellement une chance en Arabie Saoudite ? | Le portail des passionnés d'aviation

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## PARIKRAMA

2 news items in my ticker for the morning today..

Apparently Yesterday (on Wednesday) a meeting between Indian negotiators and France with DA people took place.. Of course information access is limited but seems the deal modalities are still being worked out ..

Of course New Indian express is publishing a rather clueless article with caption like below.. Most of the information is rather recycled

Article 1:
*France Reproposes 'Attractive' Rafale Deal*

*N*EW DELHI: In a bid to break the ongoing impasse on the Rafale fighter jet deal, a high-level delegation of Indian and French officials met in the South Block on Wednesday afternoon. The Price Negotiation Committee formed to work out modalities on the 36 Rafale warplanes has not been able to conclude its task as it has not been able to strike a compromise.

Thirty-six nuclear-capable Rafale jets will be delivered to India in fly-away condition, fitted with weapon systems, such as array radar, high end beyond-visual-range missiles and defensive weapon systems. The deal will also include a support and maintenance package with the manufacturer, Dassault. The Indo-French High Committee on defence cooperation meeting scheduled for March 9, 10 was chaired by the Defence Secretary G Mohan Kumar. Defence industry, procurement and research technology were the areas that were focussed. The status of several defence deals between the two nations was also discussed, including the Rafale jet and Short Range Surface to Air Missile joint development.

*“During the meeting, it was believed that French authorities gave a fresh proposal with amendments to make the Rafale deal more attractive. The Indian side is examining the proposal,”* an officer said. According to a top Defence Ministry official privy to the development, India is targeting a cost between `65-68,000 crore (8 billion Euros) for 36 Rafale fighter jets. However, on the other side, Dassault, which manufactures the aircraft has quoted a whopping figure of the nearly 90,000 crore (12 billion Euros).

As a compromise was not reached, the deal could not be inked during French President Hollande’s visit to New Delhi last month during Republic Day celebrations. It only dashed the hopes of the IAF, which is struggling to cope with its depleting fleet strength, but also caused embarrassment to New Delhi as no major announcement was made during the meeting of the top political leadership of both countries. In a joint statement on 25 January, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Hollande had hoped to sort out the financial aspects in ‘couple of days’. Even Dassault Aviation had said it expected a complete agreement in four weeks.
France Reproposes 'Attractive' Rafale Deal -The New Indian Express
++++


The second article is from AVIATION WEEK.. Since i dont have a subscription, I am posting the link. will try to find out details

Article 2
*aviationweek*.com/defense/*can*-*france*-*india*-*work*-*out*-*fighter*-*deal*
*
*

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## Picdelamirand-oil

*
Dassault is negociating for a contract of 90 Rafale "Make in India"*
Google Translate
*In french:*
Dassault négocie pour un contrat de 90 Rafale "make in India" - L'Usine de l'Aéro

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> *Dassault is negociating for a contract of 90 Rafale "Make in India"*
> Google Translate
> *In french:*
> Dassault négocie pour un contrat de 90 Rafale "make in India" - L'Usine de l'Aéro


*Dassault is negotiating for a contract of 90 Rafale "make in India"*
By Hassan Meddah - Updated March 10, 2016, at 5:59 p.m. - PublishedMarch 10, 2016, at 5:44 p.m.

The manufacturer put on an additional 90 Rafale contract with India beyond the initial negotiations for the purchase of 36 aircraft. However, a dampened optimism about the delay of over two years for its business jet, the Falcon 5X following the difficulties encountered by the engine manufacturer Safran. 






_Two Rafale of the French Air Force - Credits: Pierre Monnier_

48 Rafale sold to Egypt and Qatar have boosted the 2015 results Dassault Aviation . The aircraft manufacturer has announced a net profit of 482 million euros, an increase of over 20% for a turnover of 4.2 billion. This corresponds to the delivery of eight Rafale and 55 Falcon business jets.

The group also benefited from the good performance of the group Thales, held at 25%. This participation has boosted its adjusted net income to € 189 million.

Rafale side, the manufacturer is still as enthusiastic. While he believes very close to signing the contract for 36 aircraft in India , CEO Eric Trappier spoke very openly talks for an additional order for 90 additional Rafale.

The industrial base is even already in the study. *"Today, there is the price negotiated for the first 36 devices but the principal of our work is to prepare an order for 90 additional aircraft" , says leader . The industrial device associated with such a contract would be well advanced. "We try to make a genuine partnership with Indian industrialists to set up a policy of " Make in India ". Beyond the traditional offsets, Dassault Aviation would settle India with our partners Safran , Thales and part of our subcontractors. We are looking for Indian partners to manufacture in India, " explains the director.*

According to him, the data has changed from the conditions of the 2012 agreement which involved 126 aircraft and eventually had never successful. *This time, the French aircraft manufacturer is ready to take responsibility for the aircraft produced on Indian soil to the extent that it has the ability to choose its subcontractors.*

*CONVERT CUSTOMERS MIRAGE 2000 RAFALE*

The group says have already doubled production of the Rafale to two per month. For this, it has made industrial investments in its main plants of the Hexagon. The CEO determines the increase in production rates at three months Rafale by the signing of two new contracts for export.

Dassault Aviation emphasized in talks with other countries, primarily the owners of the Mirage 2000._"We continued support of some Mirage 2000 fleet worldwide. The first two Rafale export contracts are users Mirage 2000. We hope other camera at this hotel will burst one day, "_ hopes Eric Trappier.

Discussions are underway with these countries, including the United Arab Emirates (UAE), the devices are active in Yemen. Discussions are also ongoing with Malaysia, Belgium, Switzerland , Canada ....

*DELAYS FALCON 5X "OUR WORST NIGHTMARE"*

By cons, this is the soup grimace on the side of business aviation range. In fact, the recovery is not at the rendezvous. The group has won 45 business jet orders in 2015 near the 90 units sold last year._"The figure is disappointing. The year was difficult,"_ admits the head of Dassault Aviation. Two phenomena Falcon penalize the manufacturer. First, North American manufacturers like Gulfstream and Bombardier , down when they do not cut prices; secondly, the BRIC countries ( Brazil , Russia, India, China ....) do not record the expected economic growth and slow down their pace of acquisition.But above all, the manufacturer has acknowledged a delay of over two years for his new business jet Falcon 5X.

Involved, Safran difficulties to develop the engine of the machine. _"The reality exceeds our worst nightmares. We are in discussions with Safran on compensation to cover our additional costs and help our customers remain loyal to us" ,_ acknowledged Eric Trappier. Result: the manufacturer was forced to freeze production at its plants as in those of its partners.

In this mixed environment, Dassault Aviation takes advantage of its duality between civil and military activities. The production activity increase related to the Rafale export contract dampens declines in business aircraft deliveries. Hazards in civil aviation therefore do not prevent the manufacturer to hire about 250 employees last year.

_*Hassan Meddah*_

*Comment*.. That looks like first tranche surely.. if i consider 2.5-3 years for plant setup and conservatively 16 jets a year its end to end 8 years from say dec 2016 by which decision would be taken..

That means 90 will get inducted by 2023 end implying 126 jets with 36 flyaway too..

Surely more tranches will be ordered..

Crossposting from another thread just for an plan i had discussed..


PARIKRAMA said:


> LCA present line is 8 Jets a year. A second line is getting done to first add 8 jets a year and then scale it up to 16 jets a year. So the plan for MK1A seems to be this
> April 2018 -2024 Dec -6 years 8 months - 16 jets a year (line 1 - 8 + line 2 - 8)x 6.67 = 106 Jets
> Post this the second line will start producing at 16 jets a year so total productivity will be Line 1 8+ Line 2 16 = 24 Jets a year
> 
> This is where either Mark 2 will start or for another 2 years Mark1A more numbers will be crunched. Either way, its now 24 jets a year
> 
> Jan 2025- Dec 2030 = 6 full years 24 x 6 = 144 Jets
> 
> Thus light category would then become
> 
> Mark 1 = 20
> Mark 1A = 106 Jets
> mark1A or Mark 2 = 144 Jets
> 
> So by 2030 end = 144+106+20 = 270 Jets or 16.875 squadron+
> 
> Couple with MKI - 312 or 19.5 Squad
> 
> So with Hi and lo its 36.375
> 
> Even if i consider Jags and Mig29s as combined number of 63+50 odd or 7 squdrons
> 
> Thus, its 36.3+7 =43 squads
> 
> If i consider Rafales either as 1:1 replacement of the above 7 sqds of medium its 43 sqds plus anyways..
> 
> Considering we have enough time till 2030 end and even if MII for any jet happens and starts production by 2019 and we get 11 year + full production then with say 16 jets a year we are looking at 176 jets or 11 sqds
> 
> On top off the shelf 36 will be signed so thats 2.25
> 
> That means 2030 end its 43.3+11+2.25 = 56.5 squadrons post which 7 squadrons will be retired in a phased manner and will need replacement in next 5-7 years with newer jets.
> 
> Thus the medium category has a need of 176+36+112= 324+ jets
> 
> Looking at timeline upto 2030 and further 5 years to retire 5-7 squads, i am betting this category to be Rafales as of now.. Incase AMCA comes in some numbers of the same will be then used to do 1:1 replacement of Jags and Mig29s.
> 
> This is all without FGFA.. I do have a feeling FGFA will be limited and may be used to replace more of MKIs at a later stage owing to cost part of maintaining a 5th gen jet especially since India plans for 2 such jets (AMCA and FGFA)



@Abingdonboy

Now look again..

By 2023 end its 90 MII and 36 flyaway

Assuming plant runs for another 7 years till 2030 and we add 16x7= 112 jets

So total we get is 112+126=238 jets

This is 14.875 squads so now the true picture is

Lo LCA variants - 270 Jets
Hi MKI - 312
Rafale 238
---------------------
820 Jets or 51.25 squadrons

On top i am expecting out of 10 odd sqds of Mig29s+M2ks and Jags at least 7 sqds will be available and those 7 will retire by max 2035.

so 51.25+7=58.25 sqds..

Eventually these 7 sqds to be replaced by either rafales or a combination of Rafales and AMCA ..

Thus potential for Rafales in IAF or medium bird is 238+112 = 350 Jets

Add IN another 150 jets for carriers and shore based needs, you are looking at 500 Rafales/Medium category Jets for India.. 

On top IN will field further equal number of AMCA jets or 150+ in 5th Gen post Rafale as its clearly looking at 550-600 jet strength by 2050 and will be South East Asia's 2nd most powerful AF.

And all this without considering FGFA as i mentioned earlier.

If we follow simple rules, we end up with huge sq strength.. just execution is the key...

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## Abingdonboy

> "We have conveyed our concerns to the government. Government is seized of this problem and the reason why the government signed the 36 aircraft (Rafale) *on G2G basis is because of urgency that they felt because of the depletion in squadron numbers*," Dhanoa, a Kargil war veteran said.
> 
> *Asked if there is a requirement for more Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) type aircraft besides the 36 Rafales, he said yes*.
> 
> *"There are various avenues that are being explored. There is a requirement for us to buy a MMRCA class aircraft more than the 36 numbers that we have signed. Which platform may come in, that is something between us and the government. We (both) will have to take a call," he said.*
> 
> 
> *Deputy Chief of the IAF Air Marshal R K S Bhadauria said that a decision on more aircraft will be take only after the conclusion of the contract for 36 Rafale fighter jets.*
> 
> Asked how many more MMRCA type aircraft is the IAF looking at, Bhadauria said he would not like to go into numbers.
> 
> *"I am not going into numbers. MMRCA, you are aware of total numbers (126 fighters). We are getting 36 out of that. So there is a leftover there and we will take a rather holistic view of overall numbers," he said. *
> 
> The IAF officers said that the Rafale will significantly enhance the capability of the IAF. Talking about the low serviceability of the Su-30, the IAF vice chief Dhanoa said that it is an issue.
> 
> "It is being monitored at the highest level in Ministry of Defence. We want to sign the long term material contract so as to have a quick turnaround," he said.






> "I have to put more hi-tech platform against it. The MMRCA is designed in such a way that we need to offset this capability. When does war, conflict or adventure (Kargil) take place? It takes place when he has a doubt in your deterrence. If you demonstrate your deterrence, we should have peace because he will know that he will be hit very badly," he said.





> Of the 120, 100 of them will come with 43 improvements over the existing Tejas, currently being test-flown by the IAF for various parameters and slated for final operation clearance in March.
> 
> *The first upgraded Tejas is scheduled to be produced in 2018 and the target is to complete the requirement by 2022-2023*.





> There are 260 Soviet-era single-engine MiG-21 and MiG-27 jets in the IAF fleet. The Air Force needs at least *400 additional jets over the next 10 years.*





Do not have the numbers to fully fight two-front war: IAF - The Economic Times


@PARIKRAMA @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil 126 Rafales assured- unless Dassualt are collosally incompetent, beyond this figure is pure speculation but it is clear that by 2023 120 LCA (MK.1 and MK.1A) will be in service with an addtional 40-60 MKIs. At most, between 2023 and 2025 (when the IAF has to have 42 SQNs at minimum) another 60 LCA can be added but the possibility of more MKIs is nil past 2023 when the Nasik plant starts to re-tool for the FGFA. So there is still an outstanding 200 odd jet requirement aka......Rafale. 

This is all based on what the IAF itself is saying offically. 

Throw in the IN's (80 or so by 2027 and another 60 for every new AC until the N-AMCA is ready) requirements and this is *the* deal.

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## Perpendicular

One more time Dassault is in final phase of negotiations with India. 

Dassault Says It's Close to Rafale Deal With India

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## Masterhunter

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Dassault is negotiating for a contract of 90 Rafale "make in India"*
> By Hassan Meddah - Updated March 10, 2016, at 5:59 p.m. - PublishedMarch 10, 2016, at 5:44 p.m.
> 
> The manufacturer put on an additional 90 Rafale contract with India beyond the initial negotiations for the purchase of 36 aircraft. However, a dampened optimism about the delay of over two years for its business jet, the Falcon 5X following the difficulties encountered by the engine manufacturer Safran.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Two Rafale of the French Air Force - Credits: Pierre Monnier_
> 
> 48 Rafale sold to Egypt and Qatar have boosted the 2015 results Dassault Aviation . The aircraft manufacturer has announced a net profit of 482 million euros, an increase of over 20% for a turnover of 4.2 billion. This corresponds to the delivery of eight Rafale and 55 Falcon business jets.
> 
> The group also benefited from the good performance of the group Thales, held at 25%. This participation has boosted its adjusted net income to € 189 million.
> 
> Rafale side, the manufacturer is still as enthusiastic. While he believes very close to signing the contract for 36 aircraft in India , CEO Eric Trappier spoke very openly talks for an additional order for 90 additional Rafale.
> 
> The industrial base is even already in the study. *"Today, there is the price negotiated for the first 36 devices but the principal of our work is to prepare an order for 90 additional aircraft" , says leader . The industrial device associated with such a contract would be well advanced. "We try to make a genuine partnership with Indian industrialists to set up a policy of " Make in India ". Beyond the traditional offsets, Dassault Aviation would settle India with our partners Safran , Thales and part of our subcontractors. We are looking for Indian partners to manufacture in India, " explains the director.*
> 
> According to him, the data has changed from the conditions of the 2012 agreement which involved 126 aircraft and eventually had never successful. *This time, the French aircraft manufacturer is ready to take responsibility for the aircraft produced on Indian soil to the extent that it has the ability to choose its subcontractors.*
> 
> *CONVERT CUSTOMERS MIRAGE 2000 RAFALE*
> 
> The group says have already doubled production of the Rafale to two per month. For this, it has made industrial investments in its main plants of the Hexagon. The CEO determines the increase in production rates at three months Rafale by the signing of two new contracts for export.
> 
> Dassault Aviation emphasized in talks with other countries, primarily the owners of the Mirage 2000._"We continued support of some Mirage 2000 fleet worldwide. The first two Rafale export contracts are users Mirage 2000. We hope other camera at this hotel will burst one day, "_ hopes Eric Trappier.
> 
> Discussions are underway with these countries, including the United Arab Emirates (UAE), the devices are active in Yemen. Discussions are also ongoing with Malaysia, Belgium, Switzerland , Canada ....
> 
> *DELAYS FALCON 5X "OUR WORST NIGHTMARE"*
> 
> By cons, this is the soup grimace on the side of business aviation range. In fact, the recovery is not at the rendezvous. The group has won 45 business jet orders in 2015 near the 90 units sold last year._"The figure is disappointing. The year was difficult,"_ admits the head of Dassault Aviation. Two phenomena Falcon penalize the manufacturer. First, North American manufacturers like Gulfstream and Bombardier , down when they do not cut prices; secondly, the BRIC countries ( Brazil , Russia, India, China ....) do not record the expected economic growth and slow down their pace of acquisition.But above all, the manufacturer has acknowledged a delay of over two years for his new business jet Falcon 5X.
> 
> Involved, Safran difficulties to develop the engine of the machine. _"The reality exceeds our worst nightmares. We are in discussions with Safran on compensation to cover our additional costs and help our customers remain loyal to us" ,_ acknowledged Eric Trappier. Result: the manufacturer was forced to freeze production at its plants as in those of its partners.
> 
> In this mixed environment, Dassault Aviation takes advantage of its duality between civil and military activities. The production activity increase related to the Rafale export contract dampens declines in business aircraft deliveries. Hazards in civil aviation therefore do not prevent the manufacturer to hire about 250 employees last year.
> 
> _*Hassan Meddah*_
> 
> *Comment*.. That looks like first tranche surely.. if i consider 2.5-3 years for plant setup and conservatively 16 jets a year its end to end 8 years from say dec 2016 by which decision would be taken..
> 
> That means 90 will get inducted by 2023 end implying 126 jets with 36 flyaway too..
> 
> Surely more tranches will be ordered..
> 
> Crossposting from another thread just for an plan i had discussed..
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy
> 
> Now look again..
> 
> By 2023 end its 90 MII and 36 flyaway
> 
> Assuming plant runs for another 7 years till 2030 and we add 16x7= 112 jets
> 
> So total we get is 112+126=238 jets
> 
> This is 14.875 squads so now the true picture is
> 
> Lo LCA variants - 270 Jets
> Hi MKI - 312
> Rafale 238
> ---------------------
> 820 Jets or 51.25 squadrons
> 
> On top i am expecting out of 10 odd sqds of Mig29s+M2ks and Jags at least 7 sqds will be available and those 7 will retire by max 2035.
> 
> so 51.25+7=58.25 sqds..
> 
> Eventually these 7 sqds to be replaced by either rafales or a combination of Rafales and AMCA ..
> 
> Thus potential for Rafales in IAF or medium bird is 238+112 = 350 Jets
> 
> Add IN another 150 jets for carriers and shore based needs, you are looking at 500 Rafales/Medium category Jets for India..
> 
> On top IN will field further equal number of AMCA jets or 150+ in 5th Gen post Rafale as its clearly looking at 550-600 jet strength by 2050 and will be South East Asia's 2nd most powerful AF.
> 
> And all this without considering FGFA as i mentioned earlier.
> 
> If we follow simple rules, we end up with huge sq strength.. just execution is the key...


Nice break up man...
Just one observation...
IAF don't have sqn of 16 aircrafts..so sqn number is misleading...
IAF will make sqn of either 18 or 20 aircrafts..

So 820 planes will make about... 41 sqn min to 45.5 max... So we can safely assume IAF will have their required strength if they get 820 planes by 2030... And all will be Gen 4+

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> Now look again..
> 
> By 2023 end its 90 MII and 36 flyaway
> 
> Assuming plant runs for another 7 years till 2030 and we add 16x7= 112 jets
> 
> So total we get is 112+126=238 jets



You will have to combine that with the IN requirement also. But the numbers will exceed even that due to exports.

The Rafale program will be very, very big. Much bigger than the MKI program.



> This is 14.875 squads so now the true picture is
> 
> Lo LCA variants - 270 Jets
> Hi MKI - 312
> Rafale 238
> ---------------------
> 820 Jets or 51.25 squadrons



Don't get fooled by the IAF. They said they will accept 16 jets per squadron for the sake of playing politics. Their requirement is 21 per squadron for Rafale because it will be a mix of single and double seat, they won't sacrifice on that. And a number of jets will be transferred to TACDE, ASTE etc.

It's 20 per squadron for MKI.



Abingdonboy said:


> but the possibility of more MKIs is nil past 2023 when the Nasik plant starts to re-tool for the FGFA.



The Nasik plant will stop manufacturing MKIs in 2019. Any additional orders will be made in Russia and come in as CKDs.

The removal of HAL from Rafale has been very beneficial for the LCA program.

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## PARIKRAMA

Credit to Rafale Addict





French Air Force at Al Dhafra Air Base

Next set of pics Credit to Alpha Rafale






















Masterhunter said:


> So 820 planes will make about... 41 sqn min to 45.5 max... So we can safely assume IAF will have their required strength if they get 820 planes by 2030... And all will be Gen 4+





randomradio said:


> They said they will accept 16 jets per squadron for the sake of playing politics. Their requirement is 21 per squadron for Rafale because it will be a mix of single and double seat, they won't sacrifice on that. And a number of jets will be transferred to TACDE, DOT&E etc.
> 
> It's 20 per squadron for MKI.



You both may be correct .. In any case beyond 820 jets of LCA, MKI and Rafale/Medium , we have legacy fighters around 63+50+50 ish or close to 163+ which will be phased out and retired beyond 2030 timeframe most probably by 2035 max

So net total number of Jets purely in IAF will be closer to 983 jets

If i consider squadron strength and go by logic of say 20 and 21 then

Lo is 270 /20 per squad = 13.5 sqd
Hi MKI 312 /20 per sqd = 15.6 sqd
Medium - Rafales/others/AMCA = 238 / 21 per sqd = 11.33
and old jets approx 163+ /20 per sqd = 8.15 sqd
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so total = 13.5+15.6+11.33+8.15 = 48.58 sqds with much higher number of jets per sqd..

Of course legacy fighters of 8 sqds has to be replaced 1:1 post 2030 timeline by Rafale/AMCA/Medium Jets

This is excluding Indian Navy



randomradio said:


> You will have to combine that with the IN requirement also. But the numbers will exceed even that due to exports.
> 
> The Rafale program will be very, very big. Much bigger than the MKI program.



I fully agree and that is why i said humongous potential..

Imagine those 8+ legacy squads of Mig29+jags+m2k all being phased out by a medium jet thats another 160+ fighters..
Assuming say 112 is Rafales and 50 odd from AMCA plan, Rafales in IAF alone can sour to to 350 (238+112) or even more if its fully replaced by Rafales only.

Even conservatively if i put IN need of 150+ Rafales (2 ACC of IAC2 will be 108 jets alone of course may be beyond 2030-2035 types timeline), the grand total potential is 500+ jets over next 2-2.5 decades..

Its surely going to eclipse MKI program..

But as i said execution is the key here..

IN all probability the combined fleet of IN +IAF should be comprising of approx 1500-1600 jets of 4.5th Gen and above in next 2-3 decades..

Interesting would be the asset potential of IN which i see to be superior quality and better in terms of ops cost.. (limited lo tier and no heavy tier.. all max medium tier).

That number at an average of 20 per sqd for approximation would form around 70-80 sqds.. Thats much more than what we need for a two front challenge... So the plan is good and execution again will be the key driver here

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## Didact

PARIKRAMA said:


> Credit to Rafale Addict
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> French Air Force at Al Dhafra Air Base
> 
> Next set of pics Credit to Alpha Rafale
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You both may be correct .. In any case beyond 820 jets of LCA, MKI and Rafale/Medium , we have legacy fighters around 63+50+50 ish or close to 163+ which will be phased out and retired beyond 2030 timeframe most probably by 2035 max
> 
> So net total number of Jets purely in IAF will be closer to 983 jets
> 
> If i consider squadron strength and go by logic of say 20 and 21 then
> 
> Lo is 270 /20 per squad = 13.5 sqd
> Hi MKI 312 /20 per sqd = 15.6 sqd
> Medium - Rafales/others/AMCA = 238 / 21 per sqd = 11.33
> and old jets approx 163+ /20 per sqd = 8.15 sqd
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> so total = 13.5+15.6+11.33+8.15 = 48.58 sqds with much higher number of jets per sqd..
> 
> Of course legacy fighters of * sqds has to be replaced 1:1 post 2030 timeline by Rafale/AMCA/Medium Jets
> 
> This is excluding Indian Navy
> 
> 
> 
> I fully agree and that is why i said humongous potential..
> 
> Imagine those 8+ legacy squads of Mig29+jags+m2k all being phased out by a medium jet thats another 160+ fighters..
> Assuming say 112 is Rafales and 50 odd from AMCA plan, Rafales in IAF alone can sour to to 350 (238+112) or even more if its fully replaced by Rafales only.
> 
> Even conservatively if i put IN need of 150+ Rafales (2 ACC of IAC2 will be 108 jets alone of course may be beyond 2030-2035 types timeline), the grand total potential is 500+ jets over next 2-2.5 decades..
> 
> Its surely going to eclipse MKI program..
> 
> But as i said execution is the key here..



*The DM has categorically stated that the current negotiations with Dassault are centered exclusively on the 36 Rafales,* and by extension, this is where the price negotiations is stuck. Contrary to what newspapers are reporting (rumor mongering), *there has been almost no movement on the price front.* Everything hinges on the price quoted for the 36. There have been no formal negotiations on the 90 MMRCA requirement with Dassault aviation. *The Indian side has, right from the DM to the Defense secretaries have decided to move ahead with other negotiations only once, and if, this deal for 36 is wrapped up. That may be an instruction from the PMO itself.*

What the French are trying to do is to inject the 90+ whatever requirements the IAF+IN have, in a bid to create the impression that Rs. 90,000 crore is a justifiable price tag for the 36; they are refusing to reduce the asking price. The MOD has refused to concede to this argument, which is why you're seeing almost all articles now referring to sources in DA, and not the MOD. The MOD has gone dead silent.

I had once referred to the three cliques in the MOD wrt. the Rafale. Well, not even the clique supportive of the rafale is willing to justify the Rs. 90,000 crore price tag. No bureaucrat is going to accept that price tag. That would be equivalent to committing harakiri. The government would rather bite the bullet of loss of respect with a collapsed deal, than risk a thermonuclear CAG around 2018-19.

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## SUDIP

PARIKRAMA said:


> around 63+50+50 ish or close to 163+



You always getting it wrong. It should be :

63-67: (_3 sq of MIG-29 full 20 ac/sq_)

49: (_2 sq of mirage2000, previously 3 sq but later merged into 2 at gwalior, again more than 20 ac/sq_)

123: _ (6 sq of Jaguar, now 117, we lost 6 from 2005 -2016, again almost 20ac/sq. Do you know we have procured+produced 158 jaguars from UK and in India sience 1979. First aircraft came in 1979, direct from Bae plant. Thanks to IAF abysmal maintenance and economic slowdown we have lost 35 ac in 25 yr (1980-2005) almost more than 1 ac per yr. If maintained properly during 90s, It wud have been an awesome fighting force for the western border._)

So total approx 230 ac or 11 sq, an awsome inventory, all facing pakistani border (except m-2000 at gwalior) with much required punch for our pakistani brother. These r the main reason, why IAF even do't care abt latest F-16s.

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## PARIKRAMA

@SUDIP Thanks for pointing that

Nice so its beyond 8+ sqds and is 11 sqd +
So
Lo is 270 /20 per squad = 13.5 sqd
Hi MKI 312 /20 per sqd = 15.6 sqd
Medium - Rafales/others/AMCA = 238 / 21 per sqd = 11.33
and old jets approx 230 /20 per sqd = 11.5 sqd
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so total = 13.5+15.6+11.33+11.5 = 51.93 sqds with much higher number of jets per sqd..

So another 11.5 sqd need to be replaced by either rafales or AMCA or a combination

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> I fully agree and that is why i said humongous potential..
> 
> Imagine those 8+ legacy squads of Mig29+jags+m2k all being phased out by a medium jet thats another 160+ fighters..



They will all be replaced by AMCA. Rafale is for the current requirement of 450-475 jets.

The IAF cannot buy 300+ Rafales by themselves. They can't afford it because the program will clash with the AMCA and FGFA. At the very best, I see IAF's requirement of 180+ Rafales being made in India. At 20 a year, Dassault will take at least 12 or 13 years to deliver them all to the IAF. So that's about 2028 at best, maybe 2029. In the meantime, they will have to rely on a cheaper aircraft like the second MMRCA.

But you can expect the IN to at least induct half the IAF's numbers by that time. It is the combined IAF+IN order that makes the Rafale really big. Along with its export potential. It far surpasses the MKI program.

Out of all these aircraft, MKI, Rafale, LCA, and second MMRCA, only the MKI and Rafale are sanction-proof. All others can be sanctioned one way or another.

Basically, the numbers confirmed by the govt for IAF's MII are
Rafale - 90
LCA - 126
MMRCA - 90

So numbers can go anywhere in the future. And all these can have options for 50% more with LSA being the dark horse.

Defence News, India to make the most modern fighter plane in the country :: Parrikar
The 'most modern aircraft' reference is directed at the LSA.

If, and it's a big if, the LSA works out, it will swallow up all the other programs as a whole. Rafales may get capped at 90 or 126 along with LCA at 126 and the second MMRCA may get canceled outright.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> The removal of HAL from Rafale has been very beneficial for the LCA program.


It has been very benefical for both the Rafale bid in India and the LCA, now HAL seems to have knuckled down and are pushing the LCA's development along with the DRDO at full steam.



randomradio said:


> So numbers can go anywhere in the future. And all these can have options for 50% more with LSA being the dark horse.
> 
> Defence News, India to make the most modern fighter plane in the country :: Parrikar
> The 'most modern aircraft' reference is directed at the LSA.
> 
> If, and it's a big if, the LSA works out, it will swallow up all the other programs as a whole. Rafales may get capped at 90 or 126 along with LCA at 126 and the second MMRCA may get canceled outright.


Sir, how can we seriosuly be talking about the LSA when it has never even been seen in a mock up let alone being ready for fligth tests. The needs of the IAF are immediate to meet their needs by 2025, I don't think the LSA could even be in service before 2030 if started last year so it doesn't seem to even come into the equation.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Dassault results, Trappier speaks several time of Rafale and of India too:
(With translation in English)
2015 annual results - Questions/Answers

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> It has been very benefical for both the Rafale bid in India and the LCA, now HAL seems to have knuckled down and are pushing the LCA's development along with the DRDO at full steam.



But the problem is AMCA is getting more priority. About 4000-5000 scientists are working on the AMCA right now. A far cry from LCA's beginnings where there were just a few dozen in total. The basic technologies for the AMCA already exist, completely different from LCA which started from scratch.

I don't see much of a future for LCA Mk2 because it will be ready around the same time AMCA is ready. The Mk2 can be exported, but I think it will be completely and obviously overshadowed by the LSA.



> Sir, how can we seriosuly be talking about the LSA when it has never even been seen in a mock up let alone being ready for fligth tests. The needs of the IAF are immediate to meet their needs by 2025, I don't think the LSA could even be in service before 2030 if started last year so it doesn't seem to even come into the equation.



The 'sir' isn't necessary. The LSA's development and production cycle is apparently just 4 years after go ahead. Even if it takes 6 or 7, the plan is to make 54 jets a year. The volumes will take care of the rest.

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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Dassault results, Trappier speaks several time of Rafale and of India too:
> (With translation in English)
> 2015 annual results - Questions/Answers


@PARIKRAMA @surya kiran @Blue Marlin @anant_s @randomradio Worth watching, India/IAF are mentioned throughout but the question at 18:00 is perhaps the most relevent.

"you have sold 36 Rafales to India"-journo

"Not yet, not yet, soon, soon"-Trappier

+ "The Indians always want more, which is understandable, they are a big country with big requirements"

"we are already preparing the second phase of the order that is an addtional order for some 90 aircraft" -Trappier


Speaking about the 90 MII

"we are looking to work with Indian industry, to develop a partnership and really settle in India"

"we are working on this order for 36 but our main activity is on this follow on order to make in India"

"I just got carried away by India"

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## Picdelamirand-oil

One important information is that Dassault will manufacture only 9 plane in 2016 and 4 plane in 2017, because they set up new capacities to increase the rate of production, and they will produce more aircafts only in 2018: first 2 aircrafts/month then 3aircrafts /month. So it seems they are unable to deliver during the time they modify the assembly line.

A pretty fun item is when one speaker said that Dassault Rafale has no competitors, and Dassault answers: yes, even the F-35, if it worked, would not be a competitor of the Rafale, because its name was JSF where the S is for Strike, which shows that it is not intended to air defense and then it didn't get the same versability.

And the speaker said that in fact the Rafale is very stealth andTrappier replied that we must say Low Observable, as if he did not want to insist too much on this characteristic.

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## Taygibay

At 20m+ : directly from French and following many uses of the conditional for all options
in an attempt to clarify that the first is a sale but the addition is a localization of production,

"So, in fact today, there is the price negotiation for first 36 planes,
which is fundamental to be able to sign, but the main part of our actions,
of our activities in India as of now is to prepare the 90 [ MII ] ones deal."​Éric Trappier, Dassault CEO.​When one understands exactly how bright Éric Trappier is and thus how in control when expressing himself,
that single sentence should help re-center the debate.

GLWT, Tay.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

*Concerning the rate of production, my sources tell me that we must understand something else:*

In 2016, they deliver nine planes, three other aircraft produced are intended for Qatar and are stored in order to be adapted to Qatar standard under development.

This is roughly the same in 2017 with seven aircraft stored.

It is in 2018 that we will see large amounts of deliveries, after Qatar standard will be validated and retrofitted.
Normally an operation on the assembly line costs less than one quarter!

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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> *Concerning the rate of production, my sources tell me that we must understand something else:*
> 
> In 2016, they deliver nine planes, three other aircraft produced are intended for Qatar and are stored in order to be adapted to Qatar standard under development.
> 
> This is roughly the same in 2017 with seven aircraft stored.
> 
> It is in 2018 that we will see large amounts of deliveries, after Qatar standard will be validated and retrofitted.
> Normally an operation on the assembly line costs less than one quarter!


Meaning the IAF order for 36 would only begin production from 2018 onwards with first deliveries in 2019, at best.

Considering these 36 jets was touted at meeting the "urgent" requirements of the IAF, this really is quite disappointing. By 2020 another 7-8 SQNs of a/c would have been retired from the IAF with maybe 5 LCA and MKI SQNs to replace them.



randomradio said:


> I don't see much of a future for LCA Mk2 because it will be ready around the same time AMCA is ready. The Mk2 can be exported, but I think it will be completely and obviously overshadowed by the LSA.


Perhaps the LCA can be developed into the LSA with certain LO charateristics built into it. However, i don't see the AMCA and LCA Mk.2 inductions timelines clashing- the MK.2 will be in service by 2023 and the AMCA will be in service by 2030 at the earliest. 



randomradio said:


> But the problem is AMCA is getting more priority. About 4000-5000 scientists are working on the AMCA right now. A far cry from LCA's beginnings where there were just a few dozen in total. The basic technologies for the AMCA already exist, completely different from LCA which started from scratch.


Well that's good to know.



randomradio said:


> The LSA's development and production cycle is apparently just 4 years after go ahead. Even if it takes 6 or 7, the plan is to make 54 jets a year. The volumes will take care of the rest.


I can't accept such a contracted delivery and development cycle to design, test, produce and induct an entirely new aircraft. Doing so in under a decade doesn't even seem feasible, let alone 6-7 years. As for production, even if 54/year is the ultimate goal it won't be the case from day one- maybe by the 3rd or 4th year. As such, I don't see how the LSA is in anyway an answer to the IAF's immediate shortfall that needs to be remedied by 2025.

To induct 200 LSA, I would say it will be 2032/3 before such a feat is possible.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> Meaning the IAF order for 36 would only begin production from 2018 onwards with first deliveries in 2019, at best.


No, production for 2019 begin now! 3 years to produce one Rafale in delay. There is two different things:

the rate of production
the delay of production (3 years)
You can tune the 2019 rate of production now. If you want 1 plane /month you begin now 1 plane by month, and if you want 3 planes/month you begin 1 plane every 10 days. But you will increase the production rate only in 2019. for 2016 - 17 - 18 the rate is driven by the past (2013 -14 - 15) and cannot been changed.

So if during one quarter there is no new start of airplane, in 2019 during one quarter there will be no production except if some plane were stored. After that you will have a better rate of production.

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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> No, production for 2019 begin now! 3 years to produce one Rafale in delay. There is two different things:
> 
> the rate of production
> the delay of production (3 years)
> You can tune the 2019 rate of production now. If you want 1 plane /month you begin now 1 plane by month, and if you want 3 planes/month you begin 1 plane every 10 days. But you will increase the production rate only in 2019. for 2016 - 17 - 18 the rate is driven by the past (2013 -14 - 15) and cannot been changed.
> 
> So if during one quarter there is no new start of airplane, in 2019 during one quarter there will be no production except if some plane were stored. After that you will have a better rate of production.


Do you have any idea of how many of the 2018 onward deliveres are without customers as of now ie could be picked up for the IAF's order? The IAF is going to order their 36 Rafales this year so would they come at the back of the queue?

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## PARIKRAMA

For the record DPP 2016 is scheduled to be released in April 2nd 2016

Today i was researching DAC approvals for my office work and its impact on DPSUs future and this is what i got from ICICI research team.. below is a table which says a lot






If you see the first price thats the cost of Rafales and price is *Rs 36000 Crs*

Excitedly, this report on BEL was published by ICICI on *Jan 27, 2016*

Interestingly, i did have a discussion with ICICI research team on phone and they directed me to news links like this below






Government clears purchase of Rs 39,000cr Russian missile systems - Times of India

and this
Combat aircraft and daily mail UK also reported a $5Bn figure
India may seal $5bn Rafale deal next week | Daily Mail Online

and





France and India agree on Rafale fighter jet pact but debate price | News | DW.COM | 25.01.2016


and internal discussion with BEL officials who will do work with Safran for the Rafale work in India.. They also are doing M2K upgrade works plus weapons work plus different project works including proposed Maitri QRSAM. ..

Beyond this BEL outlook is this in terms of defense contracts





Is not all this interesting..

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Picdelamirand-oil @Vauban @Taygibay @randomradio

Did i finally found the true price of whats in offer,,?
Even If i add another some amount an example USD 2 Bn or say Rs approx 14000 Crs for only customization part, its still Rs 50,000 Crs at upper periphery.

This is far below the figures quoted in media and ICICI team is backing it saying look at other deals and how much we are projecting.. You can understand the zone of at least high probability with max +/- 10-15% deviation.

Its really interesting.. right.

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## Ankit Kumar

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/708237970424201216

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## Taygibay

Abingdonboy said:


> "urgent"



Although recognized by all informed or astute observers, this urgency is internal, national!

Trappier said as much :
"I'd say yes it is certain because I don't see how they could not buy but ... as long as the first check isn't cashed,
nothing is gained and the Indians have showed us that it's always possible it may never occur.
So ... when you witness an operational need, when you see how many planes disappear "daily" in India, in a
geo-political locale that is under strain, our plane was properly selected, discussions have been on-going for
years, there's a willingness from us to base industrial means there, ... until the price negotiation concludes , the
deal is signed and the first check is in.
So where are we? We are at the finalization of the price, period ... [ to us ] a detail."
At 37:53 and beyond in Pic's link.​
The bracketed part is added by me to refer to Abingdon's _always want more_ and an earlier quote where ÉT says India "has growth, has money but tries to make do without spending too much" with an overtone of fatigue. He was however talking both for Rafales and Falcons then.

Just sayin', internal, Tay.

At Parik, 7,3 / 7.4 B$ ? Sure! And some of it gained back in the MII part as the two are linked.

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## PARIKRAMA

Some feelings i feel and wish to share for the whole Rafale MMRCA, Post MMRCA, Off the Shelf and MII saga.






Well





and







Important Bottom line

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> Perhaps the LCA can be developed into the LSA with certain LO charateristics built into it.



Not possible. Anyway, the design of the LSA is complete.



> However, i don't see the AMCA and LCA Mk.2 inductions timelines clashing- the MK.2 will be in service by 2023 and the AMCA will be in service by 2030 at the earliest.



The LCA Mk2's IOC is 2024. AMCA will enter production in 2025, I think the development cycle is different. N-LCA Mk2 will be ready only after 2025.

And IAF is not buying the Mk2. They plan on upgrading the Mk1A with new technologies. And looking at how late the N-LCA will be, the navy may opt for the N-AMCA instead.

LCA program as a whole will continue. It is required for development of AURA and AMCA.



> I can't accept such a contracted delivery and development cycle to design, test, produce and induct an entirely new aircraft. Doing so in under a decade doesn't even seem feasible, let alone 6-7 years. As for production, even if 54/year is the ultimate goal it won't be the case from day one- maybe by the 3rd or 4th year. As such, I don't see how the LSA is in anyway an answer to the IAF's immediate shortfall that needs to be remedied by 2025.
> 
> To induct 200 LSA, I would say it will be 2032/3 before such a feat is possible.



I'm just repeating what was told by the designer. I've argued along the same lines, he said it is possible. The last we heard, he said 1 prototype will be ready almost immediately after go ahead.

He also pointed out producing this plane is easy. Plus, the Israelis will be involved in the avionics from the start. They will also buy the aircraft in triple digits.

IAF's shortfall is to be fixed by 2027, not 2025. 2027 marks the end of the 14th 5 Year Plan.



PARIKRAMA said:


> For the record DPP 2016 is scheduled to be released in April 2nd 2016



The draft copy has already been made available to the industry.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> Do you have any idea of how many of the 2018 onward deliveres are without customers as of now ie could be picked up for the IAF's order? The IAF is going to order their 36 Rafales this year so would they come at the back of the queue?


Normally we will have the following production:
2016 : 9 (2 Store) ; 2017 : 4 ( 7 store) ; 2018 : 6 + (0*3) + (3*2) + 2 +7 = 21 ; 2019 3*11= 33 and so on.
For 2018 I think t-hey will produce 0 during June July and August, 1/month before and 2/month after, and you have to add the store plane.
For 2019 the rate will be 3/month.
So end of 2019 production will be 67
and engagements are Egypte 18, Qatar 24 France 10 ===> total 52
So there is 15 Aircraft possible for India at 2019 end, it could be 7 in 2018 and 8 in 2019 and after that we will share production between India and UAE.

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> So there is 15 Aircraft possible for India at 2019 end, it could be 7 in 2018 and 8 in 2019 and after that we will share production between India and UAE.



Nothing for France after 2019?


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## Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio said:


> Nothing for France after 2019?


We will be at 152 Rafale and we want to reach 225 in 2032 so we need 6 Rafale /year but with flexibility: it could be 0 one year and 10 the next one.


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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> We will be at 152 Rafale and we want to reach 225 in 2032 so we need 6 Rafale /year but with flexibility: it could be 0 one year and 10 the next one.



That will leave more money for other stuff. But isn't 73 aircraft over 13 years too less?

I thought you said because of the exports ADLA/MN may buy more aircraft after the 225.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> For the record DPP 2016 is scheduled to be released in April 2nd 2016
> 
> Today i was researching DAC approvals for my office work and its impact on DPSUs future and this is what i got from ICICI research team.. below is a table which says a lot
> 
> If you see the first price thats the cost of Rafales and price is *Rs 36000 Crs*
> 
> Excitedly, this report on BEL was published by ICICI on *Jan 27, 2016*
> 
> Interestingly, i did have a discussion with ICICI research team on phone and they directed me to news links like this below
> 
> Government clears purchase of Rs 39,000cr Russian missile systems - Times of India
> 
> and this
> Combat aircraft and daily mail UK also reported a $5Bn figure
> India may seal $5bn Rafale deal next week | Daily Mail Online
> 
> and
> 
> France and India agree on Rafale fighter jet pact but debate price | News | DW.COM | 25.01.2016
> 
> 
> and internal discussion with BEL officials who will do work with Safran for the Rafale work in India.. They also are doing M2K upgrade works plus weapons work plus different project works including proposed Maitri QRSAM. ..
> 
> Beyond this BEL outlook is this in terms of defense contracts
> 
> Is not all this interesting..
> 
> Did i finally found the true price of whats in offer,,?
> Even If i add another some amount an example USD 2 Bn or say Rs approx 14000 Crs for only customization part, its still Rs 50,000 Crs at upper periphery.
> 
> This is far below the figures quoted in media and ICICI team is backing it saying look at other deals and how much we are projecting.. You can understand the zone of at least high probability with max +/- 10-15% deviation.
> 
> Its really interesting.. right.



If you look at Egypt and Qatar contract you find it cost :

Qatar deal is quoted € 6.3 Billions 
Egypt deal is quoted € 5.2 Billions
That's a total of € 11.5 Billions

But when you look at the Dassault result, you find:







And there is only €7.9 Billions for export inclusive Egypt and Qatar and Thales and Safran participation.
If you substract the € 0.3 Billion that is the 2014 level you have € 7.6 Billions for 48 Rafale.

So there is € 4 billions extra. in those contracts



randomradio said:


> That will leave more money for other stuff. But isn't 73 aircraft over 13 years too less?
> 
> I thought you said because of the exports ADLA/MN may buy more aircraft after the 225.


After the MLU we will have to replace the older Rafale.

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> After the MLU we will have to replace the older Rafale.



When will that happen? I thought they will at least survive past 2040.


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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> If you look at Egypt and Qatar contract you find it cost :
> 
> Qatar deal is quoted € 6.3 Billions
> Egypt deal is quoted € 5.2 Billions
> That's a total of € 11.5 Billions
> 
> But when you look at the Dassault result, you find:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And there is only €7.9 Billions for export inclusive Egypt and Qatar and Thales and Safran participation.
> If you substract the € 0.3 Billion that is the 2014 level you have € 7.6 Billions for 48 Rafale.
> 
> So there is € 4 billions extra. in those contracts



if its Euro 7.6 Bn for 48 Jets + Support package+customizations then the average price of all these works out to be almost Euro 158 Mn..
with a discount on that price of 158x36 ~5.688Bn, India may end up much lesser.. With a ~15% discount on this, India may end up closer to Euro 4.8 Bn or $5.1 Bn price tag

With the suppose 25% better terms the price falls further and hence inclusive of weapons which should be around Euro 1Bn for us, the round figure may be limited to Euro 5-5.5 Bn

Whats interesting would be whats in Euro 4 Bn thats not accounted as per you and the figure in that SS
May be 1. Weapons 2. Bank interest on loans extended for these deals. 3. Proprietary work outside of Dassault which is part of the deal but will be executed by a third party.

Of course i understand the weapon deal portion in these both deals is much much larger as compared to perhaps india.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> if its Euro 7.6 Bn for 48 Jets + Support package+customizations then the average price of all these works out to be almost Euro 158 Mn..
> with a discount on that price of 158x36 ~5.688Bn, India may end up much lesser.. With a ~15% discount on this, India may end up closer to Euro 4.8 Bn or $5.1 Bn price tag
> 
> With the suppose 25% better terms the price falls further and hence inclusive of weapons which should be around Euro 1Bn for us, the round figure may be limited to Euro 5-5.5 Bn
> 
> Whats interesting would be whats in Euro 4 Bn thats not accounted as per you and the figure in that SS
> May be 1. Weapons 2. Bank interest on loans extended for these deals. 3. Proprietary work outside of Dassault which is part of the deal but will be executed by a third party.
> 
> Of course i understand the weapon deal portion in these both deals is much much larger as compared to perhaps india.


There is also training and formation for Qatar which need to create a squadron in France and is paid to French Air Force.

And one frigate for Egypt!
perhaps you could add simulators.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Did i finally found the true price of whats in offer,,?
> Even If i add another some amount an example USD 2 Bn or say Rs approx 14000 Crs for only customization part, its still Rs 50,000 Crs at upper periphery.
> 
> This is far below the figures quoted in media and ICICI team is backing it saying look at other deals and how much we are projecting.. You can understand the zone of at least high probability with max +/- 10-15% deviation.



You figures certainly reflect the true cost of the Rafale more than some of the absurd prices being thrown around and show them up to be the absurd fabrications they are. To be honest, I am going to hold my breath on the final price until it is actually signed, I think it's an almost trivial detail now considering the seperate MII deal being worked on. Now the focus should be on getting the deal signed ASAP instead of getting lost in the weeds as MP seems to be doing a bit. His relentless focus to "prove" himself by getting some sort of "best price" for India for these 36 Rafale is coming at the cost of unacceptable time delays and he seems to have lost sight of this requirement entirely. If time is money then he is comprimising his own objective (saving money) by every day he delays. Just sign it for the love of God.




PARIKRAMA said:


>



Leaving the Rafale aside for a moment,
-what are the "military planes" mentioned that the DAC has cleared for 13,000 crore?
-The DAC cleared 8 more P-8I? I thought the follow on was only for 4 with 8 already being in service with the IN. I would love this news to be true.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Is not all this interesting..


Incredibly interesting bro!



PARIKRAMA said:


>


A contract for 5000 crore for new EVMs- wow!



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Normally we will have the following production:
> 2016 : 9 (2 Store) ; 2017 : 4 ( 7 store) ; 2018 : 6 + (0*3) + (3*2) + 2 +7 = 21 ; 2019 3*11= 33 and so on.
> For 2018 I think t-hey will produce 0 during June July and August, 1/month before and 2/month after, and you have to add the store plane.
> For 2019 the rate will be 3/month.
> So end of 2019 production will be 67
> and engagements are Egypte 18, Qatar 24 France 10 ===> total 52
> So there is 15 Aircraft possible for India at 2019 end, it could be 7 in 2018 and 8 in 2019 and after that we will share production between India and UAE.


So 2 SQNs of Rafale for India by 2020 assuming the MII line isn't in any position to start churning out Rafales for the IAF until at least 2021.

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> There is also training and formation for Qatar which need to create a squadron in France and is paid to French Air Force.
> 
> perhaps you could add simulators.


I thought training and simulators come in the big figure


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## Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio said:


> When will that happen? I thought they will at least survive past 2040.


Air force rafale are certified for 7500 hours and Navy Rafale for 6000 hours. But after several years Looking at the evolution of the airframe Dassault could certified Rafale B and C to 12000 hours and Rafale M to 8000 hours/

Rafale has to fly 250 h by year so we will have to replace Rafale M after 32 years. And the delivery of the first Rafale M was in 2001. Normally the first replacement will be in 2033.

I know your cost composition and definition picture.

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Air force rafale are certified for 7500 hours and Navy Rafale for 6000 hours. But after several years Looking at the evolution of the airframe Dassault could certified Rafale B and C to 12000 hours and Rafale M to 8000 hours/
> 
> Rafale has to fly 250 h by year so we will have to replace Rafale M after 32 years. And the delivery of the first Rafale M was in 2001. Normally the first replacement will be in 2033.
> 
> I know your cost composition and definition picture.



I didn't know the Rafale-Ms were that less. I thought that was only restricted to the F1 airframes. My mistake.

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

The $5B no longer applies, it is for a much older version, and without weapons. It is $9B for the version we are looking at.

The image with Dassault's exports that Picdel posted obviously doesn't cover the weapons expenses.


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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> I didn't know the Rafale-Ms were that less. I thought that was only restricted to the F1 airframes. My mistake.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy
> 
> The $5B no longer applies, it is for a much older version, and without weapons. It is $9B for the version we are looking at.
> 
> The image with Dassault's exports that Picdel posted obviously doesn't cover the weapons expenses.


I can accept that as $5BN sounds too good to be true but $9BN sounds rather too extreme, $7.8-$8BN seems reasonable and the figure currently being debated.


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> I can accept that as $5BN sounds too good to be true but $9BN sounds rather too extreme, $7.8-$8BN seems reasonable and the figure currently being debated.



I think the discussions are for 8B in Euros. That's $9B. Above Rs 60k Cr.


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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> I think the discussions are for 8B in Euros. That's $9B. Above Rs 60k Cr.


60,000 Cr seems to be the most common figure but MP is pushing for some form of discount on even this.


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> 60,000 Cr seems to be the most common figure but MP is pushing for some form of discount on even this.



The French want around 80K crores. Parrikar is trying to bring it down to 60K.

At 60K Cr, the Rafale will cost around 250M/unit, including weapons and a longer maintenance period. And the customization is much higher now, including a new engine. For MMRCA, the cost of Rafale was 300M/unit without weapons. So it's a very good deal, especially considering Dassault has to build near 100% of the Rafale in India.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> especially considering Dassault has to build near 100% of the Rafale in India.


Well that aspect would be entirely seperate to the 36 being purchased off the shelf.


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## Hulk

@Abingdonboy Finally, I see that they are working with 90 more with a private company. You were right about 126
Dassault Says It's Close to Rafale Deal With India


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## Abingdonboy

Hulk said:


> @Abingdonboy Finally, I see that they are working with 90 more with a private company. You were right about 126
> Dassault Says It's Close to Rafale Deal With India

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## Ankit Kumar

Hulk said:


> @Abingdonboy Finally, I see that they are working with 90 more with a private company. You were right about 126
> Dassault Says It's Close to Rafale Deal With India





Abingdonboy said:


>



He is also correct about >200. Only thing is the timeline.

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> Well that aspect would be entirely seperate to the 36 being purchased off the shelf.



Only the flyaway numbers of MMRCA have doubled. The manufacturing aspect is the same, possibly greater now.


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## BON PLAN

It's too good to be true.
OK, Hawk deal take 22 years to come, but quite without competitor... In our case Rafale was declred L1 4 years ago, and even after Indian PM say india need 36 unit urgently, deal always not signing....
I can't imagine top brass of Dassault doesn't understand all you are syaing here, so I think all the economical efforts have been made. SO ? Are indians too demanding? 20 or 30% discount after 4 years of bargaining is just not possible.


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## Abingdonboy

BON PLAN said:


> It's too good to be true.
> OK, Hawk deal take 22 years to come, but quite without competitor... In our case Rafale was declred L1 4 years ago, and even after Indian PM say india need 36 unit urgently, deal always not signing....
> I can't imagine top brass of Dassault doesn't understand all you are syaing here, so I think all the economical efforts have been made. SO ? Are indians too demanding? 20 or 30% discount after 4 years of bargaining is just not possible.


Let MP play his games for now, he may make some progress, he may not but he won't be allowed to hold this process up indefinetly- the PM will see to that along with the NSA and MP is not a stupid man, he will give the go ahead when he is satisifed nothing more can be done. Dassualt simply need to help him realise that sooner rather than later.

It is not worth bringing up the Hawk deal in the context, that was an outlier with very specific circumstances and issues. India is different now, the govt is different and so is the MoD.

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## Abingdonboy

@PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Armani @sathya @surya kiran @Hulk @MilSpec @nair
MP talking about fighter jet production lines:





(2.30 onwards)

- In a couple of years (2018) there will be 2-3 fighter production units running in India or about to begin production

-This has got to mean 1xMKI, 1xLCA and 1xRafale (which is the one that will be on the cusp of operating 2 years as mentioned by the DM).

-120 LCA orders confirmed as of now

- LCA production is to be expanded to 16/year

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> @PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Armani @sathya @surya kiran @Hulk @MilSpec @nair
> MP talking about fighter jet production lines:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2.30 onwards)
> 
> - In a couple of years (2018) there will be 2-3 fighter production units running in India or about to begin production
> 
> -This has got to mean 1xMKI, 1xLCA and 1xRafale (which is the one that will be on the cusp of operating 2 years as mentioned by the DM).
> 
> -120 LCA orders confirmed as of now
> 
> - LCA production is to be expanded to 16/year



He is referring to LCA, Rafale and second MMRCA. MKI line will shut down soon. I think they will start the shutting down process next year end.

The decision for LCA and Rafale have already been made. HAL is setting up the second line of 8 LCAs. Dassault is starting the process of finding their Indian partners. The decision for the second MMRCA will be taken in a year.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> He is referring to LCA, Rafale and second MMRCA. MKI line will shut down soon. I think they will start the shutting down process next year end.
> 
> The decision for LCA and Rafale have already been made. HAL is setting up the second line of 8 LCAs. Dassault is starting the process of finding their Indian partners. The decision for the second MMRCA will be taken in a year.


The DM quite clearly said "production _*units*_" which doesn't refer to lines- there could be 3 production lines for the LCA but this would still only represent 1 production unit. As such, the DM's comments are quite telling- by 2018 there will be 3 production units running (or just about to) and in 2018 this can only refer to LCA, Rafale and MKI. The last MKIs will only be churned out from Nasik in 2019 so 100% he is referring to the MKI's production unit and not the second MMRCA.

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> The DM quite clearly said "production _*units*_" which doesn't refer to lines- there could be 3 production lines for the LCA but this would still only represent 1 production unit. As such, the DM's comments are quite telling- by 2018 there will be 3 production units running (or just about to) and in 2018 this can only refer to LCA, Rafale and MKI. The last MKIs will only be churned out from Nasik in 2019 so 100% he is referring to the MKI's production unit and not the second MMRCA.



The MKI production cycle is 3 years. Once they start making the last 15 or 16, they will have to start shutting down the plants as and when the production ends for those units, so for some contractors 2017 could mark the end of their production schedule for MKI, for some it could be 2018, for Nasik it would be 2019. MKI production doesn't create jobs anymore, so it's redundant when he is talking about the plan to create more jobs in the future.

He is referring to second MMRCA because that's the actual plan. The competitors are already discussing it with the govt, Saab, LM, Boeing in particular. It's for 90 aircraft. The decision is to be expected by this year end.

By units he is talking about the entire ecosystem to produce the aircraft, not just the assembly line.

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## Ankit Kumar

Su30 MKI production ain't gonna stop before full 18x21 squadrons. Meaning easily till and beyond 2020. 

LCA will be the other, and if initial Rafale bought, then 90 more will be manufactured here. 

SAAB , LM are options but do not fulfill the requirements. 

Closest ones are Boeing and Mikoyan Gurveich.

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## BON PLAN

It's too good to be true.
OK, Hawk deal take 22 years to come, but quite without competitor... In our case Rafale was declred L1 4 years ago, and even after Indian PM say india need 36 unit urgently, deal always not signing....
I can't imagine top brass of Dassault doesn't understand all you are syaing here, so I think all the economical efforts have been made. SO ? Are indians too demanding? 20 or 30% discount after 4 years of bargaining is just not possible.


Ankit Kumar said:


> Su30 MKI production ain't gonna stop before full 18x21 squadrons. Meaning easily till and beyond 2020.
> 
> LCA will be the other, and if initial Rafale bought, then 90 more will be manufactured here.
> 
> SAAB , LM are options but do not fulfill the requirements.
> 
> Closest ones are Boeing and Mikoyan Gurveich.


Gripen too near in performance than LCA
F35.... absolutely not. US will never accept the minimum ToT.
SH18 heavy, anemic in AtoA role. Only understandable for its carrier model, but with Rafale.... it's useless.

My favorit in case of a 2° medium plane lign is F16. Single engine, versatile, efficient in all role, possibly equiped with israeli's radar and electronic counter mesures to be very distinctive than Pakistian's ones, and at the end of its life, so easier to transfert than a F35 for exemple.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

*AND IF FINALLY THE INDIAN AIR FORCE WAS MOVING WELL TOWARDS 126 DASSAULT RAFALE?*



> Latest rumor dated, relayed that since Thursday, March 10, 2016 by the press both Francophone and Anglophone: *the Indian Ministry of Defence and Dassault Aviation are agreed on the sale of 36 fighter aircraft built in France and 90 assembled locally by the Indian industry.*Is this rumor credible?


Google Translate

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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> *AND IF FINALLY THE INDIAN AIR FORCE WAS MOVING WELL TOWARDS 126 DASSAULT RAFALE?*
> 
> 
> Google Translate


Isn't if funny how fair weather the media is? Whilst some amateurs on forums such as this have been saying this very thing for almost a year, only now is it that the media is reporting this. Until very recently they were still stating empathically that the entire scope of this deal was for 36 fighters only. 

@PARIKRAMA

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## randomradio

Ankit Kumar said:


> Su30 MKI production ain't gonna stop before full 18x21 squadrons. Meaning easily till and beyond 2020.



The MKI squadrons ordered to date is 13.5.

And in case more MKIs are ordered, it will be from Russia as CKDs. The Russians have manufactured 212 MKIs out of the 272. They have supplied 50 flyaway and 162 kits.



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> *AND IF FINALLY THE INDIAN AIR FORCE WAS MOVING WELL TOWARDS 126 DASSAULT RAFALE?*
> 
> 
> Google Translate



If these people had followed us on IDF over the last 6 months, they wouldn't have been so clueless.

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> The MKI squadrons ordered to date is 13.5.
> 
> And in case more MKIs are ordered, it will be from Russia as CKDs. The Russians have manufactured 212 MKIs out of the 272. They have supplied 50 flyaway and 162 kits.
> 
> 
> 
> If these people had followed us on IDF over the last 6 months, they wouldn't have been so clueless.


I cross my fingers !


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## Picdelamirand-oil

There is something new:


> Since Thursday, March 10, 2016 the Indian Ministry of Defence and Dassault Aviation are agreed on the sale

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> There is something new:



Finally something's moving now.


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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> There is something new:


Is this really that new? 

Haven't the two sides been agreed on this sale for a while now? What is pending is not mutual agreement but the SIGNING of the damn contract and sending over the first cheque.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> Is this really that new?
> 
> Haven't the two sides been agreed on this sale for a while now? What is pending is not mutual agreement but the SIGNING of the damn contract and sending over the first cheque.





randomradio said:


> Finally something's moving now.


If i read the french (because I understand better) it seems there is no more things to agree for a signature. The only problem is that it is a rumor and not an official statement, but coming from the press both Francophone and *Anglophone.*

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## Desertfalcon

I'm starting to think that the Rafale will be obsolete by the time this deal moves to aircraft actually being operated.

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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> If i read the french (because I understand better) it seems there is no more things to agree for a signature. The only problem is that it is a rumor and not an official statement, but coming from the press both Francophone and *Anglophone.*


So that means the issue holding it up since January-cost- has been resolved?



Desertfalcon said:


> I'm starting to think that the Rafale will be obsolete by the time this deal moves to aircraft actually being operated.


The Rafales won't be obsolete in 2018.


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## kublaiyuan

nothing is moving, rafale will never come to India, french are too proud of their product to reduce the prize and Indians will never buy over prize toys, it will be russia to the rescue again what we are seeings is 50 more sukhois and 100 more tejas in future.


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## Desertfalcon

Abingdonboy said:


> The Rafales won't be obsolete in 2018



Like I said...

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## Abingdonboy

kublaiyuan said:


> nothing is moving, rafale will never come to India, french are too proud of their product to reduce the prize and Indians will never buy over prize toys, it will be russia to the rescue again what we are seeings is 50 more sukhois and 100 more tejas in future.


Cool story.



Desertfalcon said:


> Like I said...

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Desertfalcon said:


> I'm starting to think that the Rafale will be obsolete by the time this deal moves to aircraft actually being operated.


A long time ago I thought that the F-35 will be obsolete the day it will finally be operational.

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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> A long time ago I thought that the F-35 will be obsolete the day it will finally be operational.


And you were right

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## Desertfalcon

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> A long time ago I thought that the F-35 will be obsolete the day it will finally be operational.


You may be right.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> So that means the issue holding it up since January-cost- has been resolved?


Yes but it's a rumor.

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## $@rJen

* Dassault Says it's Close to Rafale Deal With India *
*Sunday, March 13, 2016 by Indiandefense News*







*PARIS *— Dassault Aviation is in the “final phase” of price negotiations with India for 36 Rafale fighters, with the company in talks with potential local partners to build a hoped-for 90 more units, chairman Eric Trappier said March 10.

“We are getting closer,” he said as the company presented 2015 results. “We are in the final phase.”

The talks continue after Trappier had in January set a four-week target, when France and India signed an intergovernmental agreement on New Delhi buying 36 fighters.

Dassault seeks to set up “a real partnership” with Indian industry rather a conventional offset, which requires investing in unrelated sectors, he said. That partnership approach would see Safran, Thales and other French suppliers working with local partners on the Rafale if New Delhi agreed the order for 36 and followed up with a further 90 units, he said. That second order was needed as the former figure was too small to justify a local build.

Dassault is waiting to see if Canada, which recently made its scheduled payment into the F-35 program, will cancel its order for the US fighter and launch a tender, Trappier said. Canadian companies have a stake in the American project, but Dassault would find local partners if there were a fresh competition.

Switzerland is now looking for a fighter to replace both the F-5 and F-18, and the multirole Rafale would meet the requirement, he said.

Saab’s Gripen won a previous competition to take over the F-5 but a public referendum led to a cancellation of that selection.

Talks on the Rafale are continuing with the United Arab Emirates, he said.

Dassault has opened an office in Belgium, which has asked for information on fighters for a planned acquisition. Discussions continue with Malaysia, with local maintenance an option, he said. The French fighter is competing with Boeing F/A-18, Saab Gripen and Eurofighter Typhoon for an order of 18.

Dassault last year delivered five Rafales to France and three to Egypt, with a further modified three to Cairo in January. That made up the annual output of 11 units, or one a month, except for August when the assembly line closes for holiday.

Monthly output could rise to three units if India and other countries signed up for the fighter, he said. Production for Qatar starts this year.

Dassault will deliver six Rafales to France this year, falling to one in 2017. Deliveries are due to rise in 2018.

France needed export deals to be signed, allowing deliveries to the French Air Force to be postponed and funding diverted to other programs.

Trappier welcomed the March 3 announcement by Britain and France at Amiens, northern France, of the launch next year of a demonstrator project for the Future Combat Air System, an armed drone.

That “really serves to anchor” the project, leading to an operational unmanned combat air vehicle when the budget is available, he said. “We hope as early as possible,” he said.

Dassault reported 2015 net profit of €482 million (US $ 540 million), up from €398 million in the previous year, on sales of €4.2 billion, up from €3.7 billion. The profit margin was 11.5 percent of sales, up from 10.8 percent.

The company expects sales to fall this year.

Orders for the Falcon business jet halved to 45 units from 90, and the company needs to cut costs in view of the competition in the market, Trappier said.

Orders rose to €9.9 billion from €4.6 billion, boosted by the orders from Egypt and Qatar. The order backlog rose to €14.2 billion from €8.2 billion. Cash holdings rose to €2.9 billion from €2.4 billion.

The company invested €431 million of own funds in research and development, 10.3 percent of sales.

The contracts with Egypt and Qatar, and the expected deal for 36 fighters for India “have transformed the medium-term outlook for Dassault’s military aircraft business,” said a Feb. 9 stock market research note from Agency Partners.


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## Abingdonboy

sarjenprabhu said:


> * Dassault Says it's Close to Rafale Deal With India *
> *Sunday, March 13, 2016 by Indiandefense News*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *PARIS *— Dassault Aviation is in the “final phase” of price negotiations with India for 36 Rafale fighters, with the company in talks with potential local partners to build a hoped-for 90 more units, chairman Eric Trappier said March 10.
> 
> “We are getting closer,” he said as the company presented 2015 results. “We are in the final phase.”
> 
> The talks continue after Trappier had in January set a four-week target, when France and India signed an intergovernmental agreement on New Delhi buying 36 fighters.
> 
> Dassault seeks to set up “a real partnership” with Indian industry rather a conventional offset, which requires investing in unrelated sectors, he said. That partnership approach would see Safran, Thales and other French suppliers working with local partners on the Rafale if New Delhi agreed the order for 36 and followed up with a further 90 units, he said. That second order was needed as the former figure was too small to justify a local build.
> 
> Dassault is waiting to see if Canada, which recently made its scheduled payment into the F-35 program, will cancel its order for the US fighter and launch a tender, Trappier said. Canadian companies have a stake in the American project, but Dassault would find local partners if there were a fresh competition.
> 
> Switzerland is now looking for a fighter to replace both the F-5 and F-18, and the multirole Rafale would meet the requirement, he said.
> 
> Saab’s Gripen won a previous competition to take over the F-5 but a public referendum led to a cancellation of that selection.
> 
> Talks on the Rafale are continuing with the United Arab Emirates, he said.
> 
> Dassault has opened an office in Belgium, which has asked for information on fighters for a planned acquisition. Discussions continue with Malaysia, with local maintenance an option, he said. The French fighter is competing with Boeing F/A-18, Saab Gripen and Eurofighter Typhoon for an order of 18.
> 
> Dassault last year delivered five Rafales to France and three to Egypt, with a further modified three to Cairo in January. That made up the annual output of 11 units, or one a month, except for August when the assembly line closes for holiday.
> 
> Monthly output could rise to three units if India and other countries signed up for the fighter, he said. Production for Qatar starts this year.
> 
> Dassault will deliver six Rafales to France this year, falling to one in 2017. Deliveries are due to rise in 2018.
> 
> France needed export deals to be signed, allowing deliveries to the French Air Force to be postponed and funding diverted to other programs.
> 
> Trappier welcomed the March 3 announcement by Britain and France at Amiens, northern France, of the launch next year of a demonstrator project for the Future Combat Air System, an armed drone.
> 
> That “really serves to anchor” the project, leading to an operational unmanned combat air vehicle when the budget is available, he said. “We hope as early as possible,” he said.
> 
> Dassault reported 2015 net profit of €482 million (US $ 540 million), up from €398 million in the previous year, on sales of €4.2 billion, up from €3.7 billion. The profit margin was 11.5 percent of sales, up from 10.8 percent.
> 
> The company expects sales to fall this year.
> 
> Orders for the Falcon business jet halved to 45 units from 90, and the company needs to cut costs in view of the competition in the market, Trappier said.
> 
> Orders rose to €9.9 billion from €4.6 billion, boosted by the orders from Egypt and Qatar. The order backlog rose to €14.2 billion from €8.2 billion. Cash holdings rose to €2.9 billion from €2.4 billion.
> 
> The company invested €431 million of own funds in research and development, 10.3 percent of sales.
> 
> The contracts with Egypt and Qatar, and the expected deal for 36 fighters for India “have transformed the medium-term outlook for Dassault’s military aircraft business,” said a Feb. 9 stock market research note from Agency Partners.


Look how quickly the narrative begins to change. A few weeks ago "deal is dead", "deal unworkable", "only 36 to be ordered", "costs remain an insurmountable hurdle".

I wonder if the competitors have finally seen this as a lost cause so now their funding has dried up and the truth is actually coming out @PARIKRAMA

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## $@rJen

Abingdonboy said:


> Look how quickly the narrative begins to change. A few weeks ago "deal is dead", "deal unworkable", "only 36 to be ordered", "costs remain an insurmountable hurdle".
> 
> I wonder if the competitors have finally seen this as a lost cause so now their funding has dried up and the truth is actually coming out @PARIKRAMA




He also goes on to say they're looking or a local partner for hoping to build 90 more units... !!

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## BON PLAN

Desertfalcon said:


> You may be right.


Fair you seem ! 
It's un usual for a US people to have a critic view on F35.

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## Armani

*JUST SIGN THE GODDAMN DEAL ALREADY !!

Uski baad jo hoga dekha jayega!*

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## BON PLAN

Armani said:


> *JUST SIGN THE GODDAMN DEAL ALREADY !!
> 
> Uski baad jo hoga dekha jayega!*


I miss your avatar

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## Stephen Cohen

@PARIKRAMA 

Sir have you read the latest news about Rafale ; More problems 
This time it is LIABILITY clauses 

But the Inter Governmental Agreement was supposed to have been finalised

Law Ministry redflags liability issues in Rafale deal | The Indian Express

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## randomradio

Stephen Cohen said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> Sir have you read the latest news about Rafale ; More problems
> This time it is LIABILITY clauses
> 
> But the Inter Governmental Agreement was supposed to have been finalised
> 
> Law Ministry redflags liability issues in Rafale deal | The Indian Express



A lobby at work here.

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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> Sir have you read the latest news about Rafale ; More problems
> This time it is LIABILITY clauses
> 
> But the Inter Governmental Agreement was supposed to have been finalised
> 
> Law Ministry redflags liability issues in Rafale deal | The Indian Express


No Sir Stephen
Yes my friend,
I had read that in the morning.. Apparently there seems to be a vested agenda here.. if you see article mentions few lines like

_While pricing continues to be a bone of contention, Indian officials have also raised questions over key clauses, including liability of Paris in case of any shortfall in implementation of the deal, being heavily loaded in favour of the French.

The refusal of the French government to give any bank guarantees also remains a major issue. France has instead offered to provide a “comfort letter” from its prime minister.

Sources said since the contract involves huge pay-outs without actual delivery, this is a matter of concern. In the past, the practice has been submission of adequate government/ sovereign guarantees.

A senior officer involved with the matter said, “While many senior government functionaries, including those in the Ministry of Defence, have favoured out-of-box thinking to take the deal forward, when we examined the draft Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) and the draft Supply Protocols, we were left wondering as to how could India agree to all the stipulations suggested by the French side. In our opinion, the two documents were not drafted with the interest of the Government of India in mind. Many suggestions have been forwarded. But it is for the Prime Minister’s Office and the Defence Ministry to take a final view.” 

The Law Ministry has objected to the watered-down liability clause, to be signed by the French government and the two French suppliers. The Defence Ministry has been advised that unless there is a joint and severe liability clause, India’s interests would remain compromised. Law Ministry officials have also redflagged the clause in the IGA that in case of material breach by French companies of their obligations under the Supply Protocols, the Indian side would first take recourse to legal route against the companies without involving the French government. While the initial agreement provides that in case of any dispute, arbitration proceedings can be initiated in Geneva (Switzerland), the Ministry of Defence has been advised that the seat of arbitration be in India, especially since the government hopes to turn India into a hub for international arbitration. -_

Now apparently there are multiple parts which Indian express does not say at all and i wished they understood a bit before writing a story on this.

Firstly, the payouts if its huge will be partly used to facilitate the offset part where a manufacturing line is suppose to come up in India under MII

Secondly, certain customization like for example Engine customized for Indian Rafales has to be borne by India a lot in initial few payment tranches which goes towards the Safran R&D and unveiling of that engine within a stipulated time period.

Thirdly, For a large amount of spares which needs to be bought for maintaining high availability cannot be paid in tranches later but has to be adjusted within first few tranches as it goes hand in hand with accommodating the aircraft needs for such high availability needs


Fourthly, last time Guarantee/liability clause was an issue for HAL produced Rafales but as i remember a month back the news media reported that Dassault is ready for guaranteeing Indian produced Rafales when they are free to choose their partner in India and the issue is resolved.




Feb 18,2016
Source: No Rafale deal unless price is right: Parrikar | Business Standard News
So by questioning this aspect, the Indian Express is saying DM MP has made a false comment in public about this deal. I would any day trust DM MP statement over a source saying stuff who remains anonymous.


Fifthly, as far as jointly and severe liability clause is concerned, the JV will have an Indian partner and this part "_in the IGA that in case of material breach by French companies of their obligations under the Supply Protocols, the Indian side would first take recourse to legal route against the companies without involving the French government."_
needs to be understood a bit holistically. Taking a recourse involving a government would involve a sovereign guarantee state which will be difficult at any point of time. Imagine a simple case, in a corporate world the usage of Corporate Guarantee/CG is a complex issue where in case of potential delinquency situation and non performance of account, the CG is called for protecting the account going bad. Now why should a similar case be agreed by the government. If historically for MKI, Russian government provided a sovereign guarantee the same could be then called for saying a precedent. But what i searched and got is this

_"Although delayed and with costs increased to more than double, Russia is also committed to deliver the refurbished Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier to the Indian Navy by December 2012. India has agreed to wave off any penalties for the delay so far and the Russian Government has given a sovereign guarantee to ensure the aircraft carrier's delivery by then."_
..:: India Strategic ::. Air Force: India, Russia sign Fifth Generation stealth fighter project

The only guarantee now Russia is giving is setting the supply spare stuff for higher availability
Here:
_As per the supply agreement, Russia will deliver spare parts for the Su-30MKI fleet to India at a much faster rate than before. The agreement is intended to last for the next five years.

The agreement aims to improve the existing process for ordering and delivering aircraft supply parts: up until now the recipient state has had to file a separate application for each individual spare part following which the order would pass through different phases that included licensing, clearance at the customs’ level, completing bank guarantees and more._
Source: India, Russia To Sign Defense Pact For Su-30 Fleet | Indian Defence News


So most corporates today like to give Letter of comfort and Letter of Introduction without taking a risk of recourse or a liability unless and unless the entity is their group company whose individual financial strength is not upto mark and thus requires the corporate guarantee backed comfort for the buyer/Banker and other customers to trust the company.

Here in this case, India is associated with Dassault for very long and DA has its own financial strength. So in what manner a Sovereign Guarantee should be provided for Dassault to India? What is the basis of asking the Sovereign Guarantee when objectively neither Dassault is unknown to GOI nor its financial position needs additional comfort.

Of course performance penalty for delays should be there but then asking for unnecessary things is just a way to create a road block.

++
If you see the aim of this article is again to create a wide view against Rafale.. This coupled with other articles few days back on Rafale seems to be signs of desperation by people to sabotage and discredit this deal.

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## topgun047

A guarantee with a penalty clause is needed so that Dassault does not pull a Cobham on India wherein Cobham of UK delayed the delivery of quartz nose thereby slowing down Tejas FOC considerably.They got away with it since nobody bothered to put a penalty clause in the contract.

The clown who negotiated that stupid contract should be fired asap and investigated for cutbacks.

What is wrong in asking for and indeed agreeing to a clause that punishes the seller for not providing the goods which are already paid for, within a stipulated time ?

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## PARIKRAMA

Samskara said:


> I am sorry to say, but your entire spin is absolute RUBBISH.
> 
> Why don't you explain clearly to all of us WHY any kind of guarantee is not required ?


Then pls enlighten us why a sovereign guarantee is required and what benefit it serves?

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## PARIKRAMA

Samskara said:


> It serves the same purpose as a bank guarantee.
> 
> It serves the same purpose as a Currency.
> 
> I hope you are aware that ANY currency is just a PROMISSORY NOTE. It is a promise backed by a sovereign guarantee.
> 
> Are you enlightened now ? As they say, common sense is not very common.
> 
> 
> 
> Any and all contracts have to be cleared by the legal department. Human error is normal, that is why we have due process.


Awesome
So lets start again from the basic

Sovereign guarantees are given by governments to assure primarily lenders and in certain cases Buyer countries that the government will take certain actions or refrain from taking certain actions affecting the outcome of the contracted deal/project . 

A blanket sovereign guarantee of all risks is impossible to obtain in any financial transaction. In theory, the government is forced to accept risks such as exchange rate and political risk because it is better able to manage it through sound economic policies. In practice, however, the developing nations ask for a guarantee in order to ensure that the project and contracted deal remains as per the terms and conditions and deviations owing to delay in contract execution does not increase or cause any kind of burdens to their plans which were agreed too in the financial contract. In our case its IGA which explicitly states the number of Rafales and timeline of Delivery and terms and conditions which needs to be adhered too as per the agreed IGA between India and France

Where a sovereign guarantee is not obtainable, the host government may yet be willing to execute a somewhat watered-down document with limited enforceability, sometimes called a "comfort letter," or a "memorandum of understanding." These instruments cover limited matters like a policy statement acknowledging the importance of the deal to the nation's economy and strengthening of relationship with Buyer country. It also states that Government will not take any action which will hamper the execution of this contract and will give priority in hearing when an issue arises during the fly of the contract.

Historically India’s defence ministry, like weapons buyers everywhere, insists on writing “liabilities” into contracts for defence equipment. These are usually backed by bank guarantees that New Delhi can encash if the equipment’s delivery or performance is not according to the contract.

and i said the same here


PARIKRAMA said:


> Of course performance penalty for delays should be there but then asking for unnecessary things is just a way to create a road block.



But France wants to follow the Russia way of giving just the letter of Comfort. India's insistence is based on 2 aspects

1. Since its G2G deal and french government were forefront negotiating on the behalf of Dassault, they should guarantee that deal adheres to term of the contract at all times.
2. India wants to save deal cost of 3-4% charges on FBGs which DA has to incurr for the financial covenants by shifting the whole responsibility to France and Sovereign Guarantee costs nothings

The fear is that DA will escape like all other foreign arms dealers who find some loophole to run away from financial penalties. 

Yet India under the FMS route with USA does not insist on such Sovereign Guarantees. India has been depositing 40 per cent of the contract value into an escrow account with the US Federal Reserve. This serves as a “termination guarantee”, in case the buyer government unilaterally terminates the contract. The “liability” is negotiated separately between the Pentagon and the vendor company.

So no one gives a Sovereign Guarantee in today's world. The liability will be executed between DA and French government separately like all other deals and India will get Letter of Comfort from French Government + Financial BGs from DA for adhering to covenants

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## PARIKRAMA

+++
And further adding to this in a new post, Why Sovereign Guarantees are not given? (i forgot to add as i am getting old now and brain is happily slowing down lol)

Sovereign Guarantees are to be declared in the annual financial accounts of the country under off balance sheet items.. They are a part of Contingent Liabilities. The contingent liabilities is a big source of scrutiny for every Rating Agency in the world. France government would have already provided an extensive Sovereign Guarantees for its Public Utilities and Banks and other economically important financial organisations. Adding even a small partly arms deal of few Billion Euros versus a Trillion Euro Plus contingent liabilities is not a big ask. But the risk of tomorrow the Sovereign Guarantee clause being called by India in case of non execution or any inordinate delay/issues, risks the quality aspect of all other sovereign guarantees too under contingent liabilities. The effect of crystallization and risk attached to this will force the Rating Agencies across the planet to downgrade the Country Risk rating. Also the quality of all individual Sovereign guarantees will be questioned implying the whole financial ecosystem of France will be viewed suspiciously. The cost of funds would overnight increase, the cost of debt will soar, the whole financial market of France will react with negative views, the government will find it hard to change the negative sentiments and may lose the next elections surely for supporting Dassault over Public utilities and Financial well being of the country's economy.

Thus, no country likes to give Sovereign Guarantee unless its for a public company and for the well being of Financial Ecosystem of their country. 

France Contingent Liability quality has been very good and risk from it is touted as low as of now.. See some old data




Annexure 2 for France states 
_France
Guarantees: Data on guarantees only available for central government.
_
As you can see the case of Goverment Guarantees as of 2013 along with liabilities for government controlled entities.. The quality is assured with NIL NPA.

Now imagine a case where India uses this clause and declares the Dassault Rafale Deal as NPA, can you now imagine the contagion effect?

Now lets consider a simple more detailed view in case of India










What are the types of Guarantee





and the case of Guarantee Invocation







Look at our own government.. See how the nature of Sovereign Guarantee is skewed towards our economical needs and maintaining a sound risk ecosystem

This is the reason any government will be reluctant for Sovereign guarantee.. 

OTOH, I strongly advocate taking PBG/FBG (performance/Financial Bank guarantees) from DA.. Thats a standard industry practice.

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## randomradio

Samskara said:


> It serves the same purpose as a bank guarantee.
> 
> It serves the same purpose as a Currency.
> 
> I hope you are aware that ANY currency is just a PROMISSORY NOTE. It is a promise backed by a sovereign guarantee.
> 
> Are you enlightened now ? As they say, common sense is not very common.
> 
> 
> 
> Any and all contracts have to be cleared by the legal department. Human error is normal, that is why we have due process.



There is no French govt guarantee in the new deal. The guarantee is being given by Dassault.

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## randomradio

Samskara said:


> A bank Guarantee ? or a Presidential guarantee ?



The French govt has nothing to do with it. Dassault has its own terms for guarantees and it's providing that for the Rafale deal. It is a private company.

If you want to know more about how Dassault works, you will have to ask @Picdelamirand-oil for that.

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## PARIKRAMA

Samskara said:


> WRONG. A Sovereign Guarantee is a Government's guarantee that an obligation will be satisfied if the primary obliger defaults.
> 
> 
> 
> RUBBISH. You are ASSUMING what the sovereign guarantee will involve.
> 
> Any Guarantee is only to ensures execution of the contract, *irrespective *of the circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> IRRELEVANT.
> 
> All forms of Guarantees are acceptable. Some more than others depending on the risk.
> 
> 
> 
> That is just another form of Guarantee.
> 
> 
> 
> WRONG. The Russian Guarantee is a Sovereign guarantee.
> 
> The French guarantee offer is NOT a sovereign guarantee. Its only a letter from the President, promising adherence to the contract.
> 
> A sovereign guarantee is when the president signs ON BEHALF of the nation. A Presidential guarantee is when the president signs on behalf of himself. *It is worthless*. Especially if he is out of power.
> 
> 
> 
> THAT is why its a bad idea to do business with the US. THAT is why India keeps away from the US deals.
> 
> Pakistan learnt it the hard way.
> 
> 
> 
> That is not our problem. It is for the seller to give a Guarantee that will satisfy our Risk.
> 
> The choice is between a Bank Guarantee or Sovereign guarantee. Or a Mix of both.
> 
> What is NON NEGOTIABLE is that our Risk to be covered by an Guarantee that can be executed to cover our Risk.
> 
> 
> 
> To cut the BS short, You are advocating taking an executable Bank Guarantee, right ?
> 
> However DA has refused to provide one. Go figure.




Do not mislead people.. Please provide one credible source that for licence produced MKI Russia gave sovereign guarantee..

If it did then why the hell our MKI availability was 55%

We have last year got a sovereign guarantee for spare and supply .. Uptill than there was no sovereign guarantee for MKI..

So stop spewing your nonsense and misleading public

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## randomradio

Samskara said:


> I am not interested in how Dassault works.
> 
> I am interested in how the Guarantee works. I am still waiting for you reply regarding that.
> 
> Is it a bank guarantee or a presidential guarantee ?



Like I said, I don't know. You will have to ask the person I mentioned regarding how Dassault's guarantee works.



> That there was no guarantee for the Su 30 MKI deal so there should be non for Rafale deal ? Lets cut through the BS an come to the point straight.



HAL provides the guarantee for the MKIs. Sukhoi in turn provides guarantees for their part of the work to HAL.

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## PARIKRAMA

Samskara said:


> To cut the BS short, You are advocating taking an executable Bank Guarantee, right ?
> 
> However DA has refused to provide one. Go figure





Samskara said:


> I am not interested in how Dassault works.
> 
> I am interested in how the Guarantee works. I am still waiting for you reply regarding that.
> 
> Is it a bank guarantee or a presidential guarantee ?
> 
> 
> 
> Again I am not sure what you are trying to tell me.
> 
> That there was no guarantee for the Su 30 MKI deal so there should be non for Rafale deal ? Lets cut through the BS an come to the point straight.




It is you who is making a fool yourself






You said Russian Guarantee is Sovereign now when i asked give proof you are deflecting .. 

Again if you are saying a President can sign a sovereign guarantee, you are saying a half truth.. According to the constitution of the country, a Prez, a PM or any other constitutionally approved body can sign the sovereign guarantee for a country.

But thats just the first part, The system states that it has to be approved by a a body known as Ministry of Finacne and by a democratically elected body called Parliament. In other words, its meaning less if the same gets not approved if Ministry of Finance does not add their recommendation for approval and senat and Assembly has to approve it to keep the sanctity of the Guarantee...

Secondly, DA said no PBG/FBG only when it was in MMRCA for HAL made Rafales.. There is no place where its saying NO to the new deal where its choosing a new pvt sector partner in India..

So stop making a fool out of yourselves...

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## Blue Marlin

Samskara said:


> I am not interested in how Dassault works.
> 
> I am interested in how the Guarantee works. I am still waiting for you reply regarding that.
> 
> Is it a bank guarantee or a presidential guarantee ?
> 
> 
> 
> Again I am not sure what you are trying to tell me.
> 
> That there was no guarantee for the Su 30 MKI deal so there should be non for Rafale deal ? Lets cut through the BS an come to the point straight.


you need to tone down on your attitude here otherwise you wont last very long. pari has told you what you have asked and all you have done is been disrespectful and making a fool of yourself.

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## Stephen Cohen

Samskara said:


> A bank Guarantee ? or a Presidential guarantee ?



India will be making payments only in instalments 

There is NO loan involved 

Usually sovereign guarentees are asked for in case where a large loan has been taken 

Secondly dealing with France is NOT new for India 

So why should there be so much confusion

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## Blue Marlin

Samskara said:


> Are you interested in proving me a "fool" are are you going to tell us what kind of guarantee the Dassault deal will have ?
> 
> The ONLY one deflection the issue is you.
> 
> The debate is not on who can sign the sovereign guarantee ...... I am not interested in that right now and that looks like classic deflection again.
> 
> *I ask you AGAIN for the 3rd TIME. *
> 
> *Is Dassault going to provide a bank Guarantee or a Presidential Guarantee ? *
> 
> Just give me a simple 1 line answer.
> 
> 
> 
> I am touched by your concern. I take it you have nothing to contribute to the thread other than giving unsolicited advice ?


i have contributed look at the previous pages and you will find i have made quiet some contributions. i think thats something you should do, read past pages and get upto speed.
ohh by the way, i reported your posts too.

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## Abingdonboy

@Samskara do you think you know better than the GoI, MoD, Dassualt and the French government? You keep asking the same questions and when you get your answer you engage in personal attacks and dismiss all such reason outright. A "comfort letter" is acceptable under the terms and conditions that have been outlined in the IGA and is not new to India. This news is perhaps 6-7 months late, liability, offsets, workshare, customisation etc all have been finalised prior to Hollande's visit in Jan 2016. The remaining issue was/is cost and even that seems to have moved foreward lately.


More paid news on behalf of vested interests.


After reading this it was clear:

_official documents accessed by The Indian Express show_

So now the Indian Express is able to access classified documents in ongoing negotiations between two nations involving a strategic deal? The only people with such documentation are the CNC (in the MoD) and Dassualt- not even the DM of India would have them. These idiots in the media don't seem to understand if that were the case they would be prosecuted under the offical secrets act of India and so would whoever provided them such secret documents. Military intelligence and the IB would be all over them if there was even a shred of truth to this. 


It's unbelivable how gullible they expect us to be. @PARIKRAMA @Stephen Cohen @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil

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## Blue Marlin

@Deino i know you hang mainly around the chinese section but the user @Samskara is trolling like hell can you take action. regards

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## Stephen Cohen

Samskara said:


> What has "Loan" anything to do with it ? That is just a red herring.
> 
> A Guarantee is a standard business practice even without a loan.
> 
> Finally what has our past dealings with France got anything to do with Guarantees for the present and future ?



The Inter Governmental Agreement must be having safe guards

The IGA has been signed by the French Government is nt it


Dassault is a big and reputed company

It is a very prominent name in the International aviation sector

If Dassault is a giving a guarantee ; it should be good and acceptable

Our concerns are mainly regarding TOT ; offsets and spares

Why do we need a sovereign guarentee for that

Now The* Russian Mistral saga * cannot happen here 
If that is worrying some one

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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> The Inter Governmental Agreement must be having safe guards
> 
> The IGA has been signed by the French Government is nt it
> 
> 
> Dassault is a big and reputed company
> 
> It is a very prominent name in the International aviation sector
> 
> If Dassault is a giving a guarantee ; it should be good and acceptable
> 
> Our concerns are mainly regarding TOT ; offsets and spares
> 
> Why do we need a sovereign guarentee for that
> 
> Now The* Russian Mistral saga * cannot happen here
> If that is the worrying some one


The most absurd part of all this is some are getting so fixated on the liability clauses outlined in this contract but when is the last time India actually enacted any such penalty clause in a defence contract? 

The one time I can think of is the AW-101 deal and that time AK Anthony completely contravened all established norms and unilaterally encashed bank guarentees for no reason whatsoever (other than covering his usless backside).

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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> The most absurd part of all this is some are getting so fixated on the liability clauses outlined in this contract but when is the last time India actually enacted any such penalty clause in a defence contract?
> 
> The one time I can think of is the AW-101 deal and that time AK Anthony completely contravened all established norms and unilaterally encashed bank guarentees for no reason whatsoever (other than covering his usless backside).



We can use the template of 
Our recent deals with France namely Scorpene and Mirage upgrades 

In the Scorpene deal we made mistakes and had to sign supplementary contracts

I think it is naive to think that IGA has some loop holes which can be exploited 

The French President himself said in an Interview that IGA is the Precondition 
for this mega deal

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## topgun047

India did not insist on such guarantees earlier because it was not in a position to dictate such terms, which it is now owing to a stronger geopolitical hand.

Never doing something before is a stupid excuse for not doing it.

All countries including Russia and France have used absense of such a clause to screw India by delaying TOT already paid for citing lack of maturity of Indian Industry.

Search "F16 sale of the century" on youtube if you are interested to find how Lockheed Martin screwed Norway and Denmark in 1970s.

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## Abingdonboy

topgun047 said:


> India did not insist on such guarantees earlier because it was not in a position to dictate such terms, which it is now owing to a stronger geopolitical hand.
> 
> Never doing something before is a stupid excuse for not doing it.
> 
> All countries including Russia and France have used absense of such a clause to screw India by delaying TOT already paid for citing lack of maturity of Indian Industry.
> 
> Search "F16 sale of the century" on youtube if you are interested to find how Lockheed Martin screwed Norway and Denmark in 1970s.


Who said there were to be no guarentees? That's what the "Comfort Letter" takes care of. But there is no need for a Sovereign Guarantee as Dassualt is a private entity and this deal is not being pursued through a government-government route like FMS in the US or through Rosoboronexport as with Russia. This is a commerical sale.

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## PARIKRAMA

DA does most of its sales in cash. It does use BGs for progress payments as seen below
Consolidated Financials










Notice the words Customer Advances and Progress payments- Thats secured by Bank Guarantees..

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## aakash_2410

Bloody hell! Still no contract?! Indian bureaucracy makes me wanna pull my hair!!


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## topgun047

Abingdonboy said:


> Who said there were to be no guarentees? That's what the "Comfort Letter" takes care of. But there is no need for a Sovereign Guarantee as Dassualt is a private entity and this deal is not being pursued through a government-government route like FMS in the US or through Rosoboronexport as with Russia. This is a commerical sale.


I am not looking to enter a long winded argument these things generally devolve to.
There are some things I feel you are misunderstanding though I am not sure.

Anyways I will take the line of GOI here - Give the guarantee or no deal.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

*Rafale: Safran in favor of increasing the thrust of the M88 engine*
Google Translate

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## Abingdonboy

Samskara said:


> LOL ...... do you even know what a "comfort letter" is ?
> 
> A comfort letter is a document prepared by an accounting firm assuring the financial soundness or backing of a company. THAT IS IT. NOTHING MORE.
> 
> That is a Minimum Condition, not a Necessary condition. Do you understand the difference between the two ? Clearly you don't.
> 
> A comfort letter is NOT A GUARANTEE. It DOES NOT GUARANTEE that Dassault Will full fill the contract. It only guarantees that it CAN fulfull the contract.
> 
> Do you understand the difference between the two ?
> 
> What "personal attack" have I indulged in ?  SO far the only one who was attacked is me. That too for asking a simple uncomfortable question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rather than be childish and blame the Media, the vested interests, and what not, it would be better if one can focus on the simple issue that has been highlighted.
> 
> What kind of built Guarantees does the deal have to safe guard Indian interest ? Everything else is just fluff.





topgun047 said:


> I am not looking to enter a long winded argument these things generally devolve to.
> There are some things I feel you are misunderstanding though I am not sure.
> 
> Anyways I will take the line of GOI here - Give the guarantee or no deal.





Samskara said:


> Very good point.
> 
> Tendulkar has given guarantee that "Boost is the secret of his Energy". We should all drink Boost.
> 
> I am sure you find comfort in the big and strong hands of Dassault. It must be wonderful to be so gullible.
> 
> What a shame we all have to grow up sometime.





Samskara said:


> Ya right, its all just a big phoney.
> 
> We don't really need any Guarantees, we have "God" on our side..



This has all got very tedious, I am going to go get some lunch and remove myself from this disucssion entirely. I am more than certain the GoI/MoD will do what is in the best interests of their constituents, this mindless barking, assuming the worst is not very constructive.

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> *Rafale: Safran in favor of increasing the thrust of the M88 engine*
> Google Translate



The CEO of Safran Petitcolin Philippe said he was "favorable" to an increase in Rafale engine thrust, the M88. According to the assumptions, the new M88 engine thrust could range *"between 8 and 9 tons of thrust*", against about 7.5 today.


The CEO of Safran, Philippe Petitcolin, said in an interview with French journalists it was _"time today to ask about an upgrade (improvement, ed) the M88 in terms of thrust."_ He said it is_"favorable"._ He recalled that the original thrust of the engine Rafale was the same since the launch of the French fighter. Approximately 7.5 tons of thrust. Why such an improvement? _*"The Rafale has grown. Compared to the original specification, the Rafale is heavier today. He is asked more and more*"_ operationally, explained the operational head of Safran, who has not yet discussed with Dassault Aviation.

"It is time to ask the question whether it is not appropriate to launch a study that would inflate a little this engine. Technically we can do. We are in discussion with the relevant authorities to see if possible. and if so, under what conditions and at what level of performance, it would be desirable "to improve it, said Philippe Petitcolin.

What would be the good push for the Rafale? _"It depends on whether France is" ready or not to make changes to the aircraft itself in terms of air intake, "he_ said. According to the assumptions used by France,* the new M88 engine thrust could range "between 8 and 9 tons of thrust." this is what the Emiratis had asked a few years ago before abandoning the project. Regarding investments for the modernization program,* Philippe Petitcolin said the discussions were not yet at this stage. _"I have not the amount_ (of investment, ed.) _it is a discussion which is ongoing ._ _I will have in the coming months, "he_ said.



Samskara said:


> Difference is that is for SELLING Rafale, not for Technology Transfer.
> 
> Do you understand the difference ?
> 
> You pay money for ToT and the Dassault says , sorry the Govt. of France is not letting us do it. So what happens next ?
> 
> What good is the bank guarantee if Dassault will turn around and say that we have already delivered 36 Aircraft as per the contact, so no more ToT since GoF has refused us permission.




Please show me what do you believe "Technology transfer" constitutes in this deal...

What do you think DA is giving us in TOT?

Before parroting this line, i urge you again to understand and re read what you are writing...

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## PARIKRAMA

Samskara said:


> Are you saying the deal for 36 Rafale has no ToT built in ?



Long back about 3-4 months back Manu Pubby declared in Public what constitutes in Rafale 36 off the shelf deal as part of "credible" technology transfer that DM MP wants to be in the fineprint of this deal. These were clubbed under mandatory offset program

1. Manufacturing Line of Rafale In India with a Indian Company
2. A role in developing an Under carriage for Tejas Naval variant with HAL
3. RAM painting technology
4. A role in designing air intake systems for domestic fighter program
5. Integrated Production Line software and Management System

These are whats being constituted as deliverable and credible tech transfers

We are not getting any sophisticated know hows as it was under original MMRCA deal with 50% offsets where there were bigger pies like RBE2 AESA, and other cutting edge tech was there for TOT and which was not possible owing to the fact that IPR issues and French Government could block it any time (like US government Senate refuses).

These 5 things are more or less are too meagre for any IPR issues or any French Senat Blocking.

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## sathya

Samskara said:


> Difference is that is for SELLING Rafale, not for Technology Transfer.
> 
> Do you understand the difference ?
> 
> You pay money for ToT and the Dassault says , sorry the Govt. of France is not letting us do it. So what happens next ?
> 
> What good is the bank guarantee if Dassault will turn around and say that we have already delivered 36 Aircraft as per the contact, so no more ToT since GoF has refused us permission.



I have no idea what guarantee is ..

After reading past few pages posts , I am guessing no one has a clear Infos regarding it, in the past or rafale..

By reading your posts, 

India made a mistake in scorpene .. 

Why would we do mistakes again if we are in a position to not do it?

When we reach certain point we may not look at the companies who don't honour the deal... Until then we have make use of the best , that's available ..

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## randomradio

Samskara said:


> So in short you have NO IDEA how that "dassault guarantee" works.



Are you too stupid to understand that I already said I have NO IDEA?

Good job on coming to that conclusion. It took me three posts to get you to understand that.



> In that case why don't GoI give Dassault a "guarantee" that we will pay for the aircraft once they have delivered it ? Not one paise before that.



For expensive systems, money is paid in installments. Dassault has to make huge investments before construction of the aircraft, so they need money to buy long lead items, tools and start construction. The sooner we pay, the cheaper the aircraft is. The more we wait, the greater is the payout due to inflation. So you have NO IDEA.

If India has to pay the full amount during delivery, then it will become unaffordable. Instead the money is paid in installments as and when the the aircraft reaches a particular stage in manufacturing over 3 years. The final installment is paid after delivery.



sathya said:


> I have no idea what guarantee is ..
> 
> After reading past few pages posts , I am guessing no one has a clear Infos regarding it, in the past or rafale..
> 
> By reading your posts,
> 
> India made a mistake in scorpene ..
> 
> Why would we do mistakes again if we are in a position to not do it?
> 
> When we reach certain point we may not look at the companies who don't honour the deal... Until then we have make use of the best , that's available ..



Dassault will pay a penalty in case the aircraft quality is not up to par or is delayed.

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## PARIKRAMA

Samskara said:


> Dassault seeks a Guarantee from India where we have to make a part payment IN ADVANCE to ensure our credibility.
> 
> However when India seeks a counter Guarantee from Dassault, they seem to have a problem with it.
> 
> That is the Gist of the whole thing.
> 
> Then there are those who call GoI fools for seeking such guarantees
> 
> We need to look beyond "honour" when making deals. We need iron clad guarantees that will not be hostage to their "good will" and doubtful integrity.
> 
> Scorpene discussion is outside the scope, but its fair to say we did not have sufficient safe guards.
> 
> 
> 
> This is pure speculation.
> 
> ASSUMING this to be true, how can we guarantee compliance to these requirements ? Do we take their "word" for it ? or do we require something more substantial ?
> 
> Maybe a Bank Guarantee that will ensure that we can fund our own R&D if Dassault fail to deliver ? or Maybe a French Sovereign guarantee that will force Dassault to supply us with this tech ?
> 
> or are you going to stick with that line that its all a evil conspiracy by the media and "vested interests" ??




At present neither i nor you have a 150 page IGA to know whats inside it.. If there is any other data i would love to hear about it.

As for the part about guaranteeing compliance, There are two parts,, The offset execution happens in shorter period of time during the initial years of the deal whereas Indian payment in tranches happens over longer period of deal. In short, if the progress is not tangible in offset execution, there would be corresponding penalty deducted in tranche payment.

The route may be a BG where these clauses will be referred to and defined under Terms of Payment. Under any circumstances there will be a mobilization advance, a part payment for the tranches and a retention payment part.

The retention payment will not get discharged unless DA executes the offset properly and GOI/MOD is convinced about it.

There wont be a Sovereign French Guarantee for such a weapon deal or execution of offsets.

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## randomradio

Samskara said:


> The normal practice is to keep quite when you have No Idea. Too bad you had to fake it till I proved the obvious. That you don't know.



Good. you should practice what you preach then.



> By that same twisted logic, it would be cheaper to pay the full money upfront since that would work out the cheapest.



No. There is a 5.5-7.5% inflation on the contract. The later we pay, the more we add to the price.

If you pay for something 3 years after production starts, then you are paying a minimum 5.5% extra every year you wait.



> The point is about Risk mitigation. Dassault reduces Risk to itself by ensuring part payment. That is Risk management.
> 
> GoI seeks to manage its risk by a bank Guarantee or a Sovereign guarantee.
> 
> .
> 
> That is what is ensured by the GUARANTEE.



The contract is no different from any contract between two private players. Just because we don't know what's in the contract doesn't mean we start jumping the gun because we read an obvious paid article.

Anyway, military contracts have more than just bank and sovereign guarantees. There are penalties in contracts. If the program is to continue after lapses, Dassault will have to pay penalties to make up for the lapses.

Tools and long lead items are expensive. They would have purchased it for the entire duration of the contract. If Dassault messes up, they go under a loss.

It is easier to deal with private players than with govt controlled players because they are more worried about profits and losses. And penalties eat into their profits.

So it's no as simple as throwing around words like "bank guarantee or sovereign guarantee" and expecting a one word answer. And the guarantee mechanism is generally a state secret. We don't buy weapons on loans. We buy them on hard cash.

There was no sovereign guarantee on the Russian Mistral deal. But the Russians have successfully dealt with their problem.
France pays Russia €900mn compensation for Mistral warships - reports — RT News

Don't get so excited over articles from lobbyists.

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## topgun047

Can you answer these questions that came to my mind ?
Where is the penalty in Cobham deal ?
What penalty did Russia pay for not supplying TOT of T-90 barrel ?



randomradio said:


> Anyway, military contracts have more than just bank and sovereign guarantees. There are penalties in contracts. If the program is to continue after lapses, Dassault will have to pay penalties to make up for the lapses.

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## randomradio

topgun047 said:


> ^Where is the penalty in Cobham deal ?
> What penalty did Russia pay for not giving of T-90 barrel ?



Are both from Dassault?

Why don't you ask those questions to the parties involved? Don't bring irrelevant aspects into Dassault. Both are DRDO's headache.

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## topgun047

randomradio said:


> Are both from Dassault?
> 
> Why don't you ask those questions to the parties involved? Don't bring irrelevant aspects into Dassault. Both are DRDO's headache.



But these contradict your claim, the qouted part...

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## PARIKRAMA

Samskara said:


> *You are again Speculating. *
> 
> What do do have is a Report that talks CLEARLY about,
> 
> 1, Liability heavily loaded in favour of France
> 2. Refusal of the French government to give any bank guarantees
> 3. Attempt to replacing Guarantees by "comfort letter" by its PM.
> 
> Not to mention a 50% Offset clause.
> 
> No solution is mentioned, but there can be only two.
> 
> Either France provides the guarantees or India compromise on its interests and sign away the guarantees.



If you dont understand finance parlance, no one can help you with your "idiotic" methodology of going round and round even when everybody explains to you in simple lucid words..

For what i say is speculation and what you say is fact.. Get out of your mountain cave which you have been living for decades and think the world moves at your whims and fancies....

Point 1
The fact remains you are basing all this spouting of round round nonsense on one report and sidelining everything including what DM MP has clearly said.. You believe a report is more authentic when DM MP statement..

Point 2
You can keep talking things again and again by saying Government needs to give BG when you dont understand a government cannot give a BG.. A Government gives a Sovereign guarantee to a Bank which provides a loan for the customer towards payment to Dassault for its Rafales .. That what happens when you have a loan backed defense deal.. A government cannot give a BG!!! Only a financial institute like a Bank gives BG.

*Pls enlighten us all about any deal from your knowledge with facts and figures where a government issued a BG.
*
Point 3
A comfort letter is a normal practice.. France does not have a PM. 
IF you believe that its not enough then pls as a free country you can go file a case in Supreme Court stating its against the countries National interest..

Sadly thats the same structure followed world over..


For your kind information and irrelevant ranting in this thread, till now GOI/MOD has not penalized HAL for its absolute disgraceful project execution in Tejas Project. Not even in case of Cobham they could do anything to Cobham which faced issues with specs for Nose cone. Not even in case of SP2 or in Case of delays in IOC nd FOC or in case of absolute delay in the whole project. *The courage and ability of the government to seek financial penalty does not exist in domestic projects till date but you expect a foreign vendor should be backed by Sovereign guarantee for the so called 36 rafales bcz a news report says so.*

PS: I am already aware what was your original account as your style of writing and choice of words is very much easy to see the similarity..

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## randomradio

topgun047 said:


> But these contradict your claim, the qouted part...



They don't.

Also in case there were penalties levied, we won't know about it because it will be a state secret. We only know certain things because of CAG reports. Nobody willingly discloses such details.



Samskara said:


> Russia could afford to go ahead with Mistral deal without a guarantee, They have a fearsome reputation backed by more than 1,500 Nukes. They have a huge history of ship building.



You talk about childish and grown ups and real world and then start talking about nukes factor in the Mistral deal.

Lol. That ended the discussion.

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## topgun047

randomradio said:


> They don't.
> 
> Also in case there were penalties levied, we won't know about it because it will be a state secret. We only know certain things because of CAG reports. Nobody willingly discloses such details.


So instead of conceding that perhaps you were wrong, you come up with a conspiracy theory that entails Defends Minister MP lying to the Parliament about no penalty paid by Cobham.

The fault is mine for trying to have intelligent debate on an anonymous forum.

You are welcome to carry on your self delusions (IMO)
Please continue spout them non stop.This forum does not ban for stupidity.
You will find no resistance from me from now on.

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> including a new engine.



Certainly not!



kublaiyuan said:


> french are too proud of their product to reduce the prize



Below cost? That ain't pride, it's sound business practice!



sarjenprabhu said:


> He also goes on to say they're looking or a local partner for hoping to build 90 more units... !!



Exactly the same thing that was said by Éric Trappier mere days ago.
Ask Abingdon or Parik for link to the thread with the translations.



PARIKRAMA said:


> the Indian side would first take recourse to legal route against the companies without involving the French government.



Because not all Rafale GIE corps are govt owned, that simple!
Of course, we could cook up an FMS type thinghie fer ya but it could take years ...
Oh! Wait, as an Indian, your conversation opponent may like that better, right? 



topgun047 said:


> which it is now owing to a stronger geopolitical hand.



Not in the context of this buy by any stretch of imagination. Two years ago, maybe ...



Abingdonboy said:


> I am going to go get some lunch and remove myself from this disucssion entirely.



Isn't it interesting that both foreign and desi commenters need to take breaks from this subject?
I wonder what it means?



Samskara said:


> Are you enlightened now ? As they say, common sense is not very common.



Even less than proper sense, it seems!



Samskara said:


> ...focus on the real issue. Can you do that ?



You are the noob that won't heed to reality here! Shouldn't you re-read yourself and rephrase that?
Your tone from the onset ...


Samskara said:


> I am sorry to say, but your entire spin is absolute RUBBISH.


as here to a respected forum member whose view is becoming confirmed with every passing day
shows you in a bad light as do the immoderate uses of capitals and bold letters. The problem is you!



Samskara said:


> Any Guarantee is only to ensures execution of the contract, *irrespective *of the circumstances.



Go home and read the fine print on your life insurance contract for proof of the utter stupidity of that bolded part.
'T should keep this thread civil in the meanwhile as a bonus!



Samskara said:


> We need iron clad guarantees that will not be hostage to their "good will" and doubtful integrity.



If you want to buy a product from a maker that you deem of doubtful integrity,
you're a first class idiot and if your temper made you say it, you're a loudmouth!
Which is it?



Samskara said:


> What do do have is a Report that talks CLEARLY about,



No, not a report : another secretly sourced "official" Indian media-rrhea occurrence.
You must learn to differentiate between the two if only for your own sake and sanity.
I'm not a fan of Parrikar as he talks entirely too much and tangles himself with that
but at least, he's authorized to do so!
The multitude of civil servants babbling by the water fountain and coffee machine are not.
And neither are you save in discussions as this very one.

I get the feeling that in India, such anonymous sources would get elevated to deity status
by fanboys if they came out of the hush closet. In France, they'd be fired! Different strokes!

So good luck to you and better one yet to the rest, have a good day all, Tay.

P.S.


PARIKRAMA said:


> France does not have a PM.


Actually, we do but contrary to India, he works under the Prez on defence matters, not over.

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## randomradio

topgun047 said:


> So instead of conceding that perhaps you were wrong, you come up with a conspiracy theory that entails Defends Minister MP lying to the Parliament about no penalty paid by Cobham.
> 
> The fault is mine for trying to have intelligent debate on an anonymous forum.
> 
> You are welcome to carry on your self delusions (IMO)



You are going off on a tangent. Every single defence deal we sign has guarantees in them.

Here there's a paid article which talks about having gotten secret govt documents from somewhere which says there are no guarantees of any sort with Dassault. Who are you going to believe? The govt or a paid article?

We are the biggest arms importers in the world. It is commonsense to expect we have guarantees in our deals.

Due to the secrecy and complete lack of information, you are using a negative that nobody can prove to defend your point, so the discussion is not intelligent in the first place. So yes the fault is yours if you believe you can make silly assertions and then expect others to prove you wrong.



Taygibay said:


> Certainly not!



I am referring to the new 8.3T engine. This was confirmed by CNL. And I think Vstol also confirmed it.



> I get the feeling that in India, such anonymous sources would get elevated to deity status
> by fanboys if they came out of the hush closet. In France, they'd be fired! Different strokes!



If that anonymous source is a whistleblower against corruption, he will be welcomed. Of course, his career is dead a la Snowden. Probably deal in other ways too.

But you are correct about people not being able to differentiate between paid articles and the genuine stuff.[/QUOTE]

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## Spectre

Interesting discussion but inconsequential - most people here with some exceptions have never gone through international BGs in detail. International BG are altogether a different beast to enforce and even more so when they are performance BG and not financial BG. The second point is that in all the intergovernmental or multi-party contracts I have reviewed there are enough exit clauses to ensure that the BG is never invoked. What I am saying is that even if the French and Dassault give a BG - it is still not a firewall against bad faith. 

The contracts are a matter or leverage and right now I have to say that the scales if not tilted towards French, they are balanced. In such a case we cannot expect to have our way all to the kingdom come with French. 

I also saw some posters bringing in Russian Defence Suppliers and their guarantees - What a Joke!

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## Taygibay

Yes random but that engine will come for the whole program when it does.
So it shouldn't be a customization item in this deal for India is what I meant.

At worst you could put in some money to speed up the process but since
the Rafale made the MMRCA cut it should be a bonus point, no more!
Don't get caught in requesting extra stuff at an extra price without need?

Have a good day, Tay.

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## $@rJen

Taygibay said:


> Exactly the same thing that was said by Éric Trappier mere days ago.
> Ask Abingdon or Parik for link to the thread with the translations.



i always supected it, this must must be the reason behind DM is trying to reduce the cost of the 36 fighters so when we build 90 units under MII even more reduction of cost might take place

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## Taygibay

^^^ Yes with the caveat that Dassault links the MII to the second order whereas
an interpretation of your DM's statements ( sometimes nearly conflicting so S )
may lead one to think GoI links it to the first batch.

Not unsolvable in any case if the price is right.
Great day mate, Tay.


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## Spectre

Taygibay said:


> Yes random but that engine will come for the whole program when it does.
> So it shouldn't be a customization for India is what I meant.
> 
> At worst you could put in some money to speed up the process but since
> the Rafale made the MMRCA cut it should be a bonus point, no more!
> *Don't get caught in requesting extra stuff at an extra price without need*?
> 
> Have a good day, Tay.



Good point and I must say kudos to Dassault for generating all this pull for their product in an industry which is usually a buyer's market.

Right now Indians are behaving like a kid in candy store! which is understandable since it has been quite some time since we last had access to a sophisticated and polished product like Rafales. We defence enthusiasts are salivating like junkies for our next hit which in this case is a tiniest scrap of rumour regarding the deal. This deal has acted like a huge boost to our national ego which is always involved in pissing contest with our hosts in forum.

The ground reality is much more dour and there are following constraints

- *Political Constraint* - Pressure to get a better deal in terms of price and ToT then the erstwhile government in India. If it leaks that we are paying more than MMRCA then the current govt will be crucified. *This is a major factor responsible for delay
*
- *Financial Constraint - *There are lots of class leading features in Rafale from what I understand from @randomradio and the other French Gentleman's (whose name I can't recall) posts. My point is that do we need additional goodies and if yes then at what incremental cost? At some point we have to find the best ratio between price and value. Combine this with Financial constraints which India faces by the virtue of having a huge standing military and the preference is clear for having the barest possible version at cheapest price which may not go well with defence enthusiasts.

- *Technological Constraint *- Many posters have advocated procuring Rafale's in number sufficient enough to warrant local production. Essentially MMRCA in a different skin.
While it sounds cool - the real fact is that due to the technological backwardness of Indian industry, we don't have the best of systems and processes, the whole vendor ecosystem runs on corruption and kickbacks, there is lack of capability to absorb sophisticated technology efficiently by HAL and private sectors are just novices (equivalent of budding sperm) in this area.

Once we understand all these constraints which India faces then it becomes clear why there is such a delay and why it will be for the best if we walk away with 36/54 Rafales off the shelf while we continue in our quest for AMCA

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

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## Taygibay

Spectre said:


> I must say kudos to Dassault for generating all this pull for their product in an industry which is usually a buyer's market.



Maybe kudos should be addressed to Lock-Mart instead? 

Just sayin', fully agreed to rest of post, Tay.

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Yes random but that engine will come for the whole program when it does.
> So it shouldn't be a customization item in this deal for India is what I meant.



Okay, I read my post and the statement seemed ambiguous. I see how one can get confused by it.



Taygibay said:


> ^^^ Yes with the caveat that Dassault links the MII to the second order whereas
> an interpretation of your DM's statements ( sometimes nearly conflicting so S )
> may lead one to think GoI links it to the first batch.
> 
> Not unsolvable in any case if the price is right.
> Great day mate, Tay.



The price negotiations for this contract are linked to the MII. The Indian govt won't negotiate a second time for the same thing. I doubt there will be price correction, but I think Dassault will work it out on their own with the Indian partner.

Dassault will most likely choose the cheapest subcontractor, be it French or Indian, at the start before Indianizing the production at a later date. Spares and maintenance will eventually have to be Indianized even if the full production of the jet is not.

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## PARIKRAMA

Spectre said:


> Good point and I must say kudos to Dassault for generating all this pull for their product in an industry which is usually a buyer's market.
> 
> Right now Indians are behaving like a kid in candy store! which is understandable since it has been quite some time since we last had access to a sophisticated and polished product like Rafales. We defence enthusiasts are salivating like junkies for our next hit which in this case is a tiniest scrap of rumour regarding the deal. This deal has acted like a huge boost to our national ego which is always involved in pissing contest with our hosts in forum.
> 
> The ground reality is much more dour and there are following constraints
> 
> - *Political Constraint* - Pressure to get a better deal in terms of price and ToT then the erstwhile government in India. If it leaks that we are paying more than MMRCA then the current govt will be crucified. *This is a major factor responsible for delay
> *
> - *Financial Constraint - *There are lots of class leading features in Rafale from what I understand from @randomradio and the other French Gentleman's (whose name I can't recall) posts. My point is that do we need additional goodies and if yes then at what incremental cost? At some point we have to find the best ratio between price and value. Combine this with Financial constraints which India faces by the virtue of having a huge standing military and the preference is clear for having the barest possible version at cheapest price which may not go well with defence enthusiasts.
> 
> - *Technological Constraint *- Many posters have advocated procuring Rafale's in number sufficient enough to warrant local production. Essentially MMRCA in a different skin.
> While it sounds cool - the real fact is that due to the technological backwardness of Indian industry, we don't have the best of systems and processes, the whole vendor ecosystem runs on corruption and kickbacks, there is lack of capability to absorb sophisticated technology efficiently by HAL and private sectors are just novices (equivalent of budding sperm) in this area.
> 
> Once we understand all these constraints which India faces then it becomes clear why there is such a delay and why it will be for the best if we walk away with 36/54 Rafales off the shelf while we continue in our quest for AMCA
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy



Solid points as usual my good friend... only part we all have issues is no one knows when AMCA project will get completed.. The other domestic project does nt inspire high confidence looking at shabby state of affairs. 

IF the present fleet could sustain for a decade more may be yes what you say would make precise sense, but sadly with 21/27s going out and our domestic light weight bird crawling at snail speed for next few years, gives a lot of sleepless nights for any defense planner..

Unless of course we outsource that risk by giving a military base to a known west country who will beef it up at least the base and surroundings and we kind of agree for a borrowed protectionism..

Thus here is the biggest dilemma.. we want at our price and at our whims.. of course buyer seller has to come to a common ground for deal to happen.. But our media plays it up like flood waters taking on the emotions of our gullible masses from one direction to another every alternate day..

What i dont understand is how a 36/54 Rafales or say an example our neighbors 24 Su35 can change the course of deterrence.. Multiply and make it 200 yes it changes many perspectives for both countries.

For the time being i would like to wait.. indications are for a bigger number.. But then its difficult with everyday flash flood of anonymous information based articles and bashing of a company, a country to even some times blind patriotism...

Lets hope for the best.. whatever decision and outcome comes out, i can only hope for the best.. The mojo effect will wear off soon.. or you never know, a permanent mojo effect may also creep in....

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> The price negotiations for this contract are linked to the MII.



I knew that but was completing Spectre's thinking.
Many less attentive posters still miss the point today?

But in truth, the savings cannot be passed back to 36GtG.
That has a fixed price and all savings are to be had on MII.
Again refer to Q&A segment of Trappier's year recap press conf.

Interpretation was the key word in there anyhow. Tay.

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> PS: I am already aware what was your original account as your style of writing and choice of words is very much easy to see the similarity..



Who is he ? Please tell us ; what was his earlier ID


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## Stephen Cohen

@PARIKRAMA @randomradio 

This news is disturbing in the sense that it seeks to present the IGA 
as defective and having loop holes 

Now the problem is that we have declared the IGA as a done deal 
and only the price is being negotiated 

How can we seek to re open the IGA


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## randomradio

Spectre said:


> - *Technological Constraint *- Many posters have advocated procuring Rafale's in number sufficient enough to warrant local production. Essentially MMRCA in a different skin.
> While it sounds cool - the real fact is that due to the technological backwardness of Indian industry, we don't have the best of systems and processes, the whole vendor ecosystem runs on corruption and kickbacks, there is lack of capability to absorb sophisticated technology efficiently by HAL and private sectors are just novices (equivalent of budding sperm) in this area.



This backwardness is actually a good thing. One good aspect of Indian companies is human resources. This was proven during the Mumbai attacks where the staff from the Taj Hotel went beyond the call of duty trying to safeguard their guests during the midst of a terrorist attack instead of running away. There is a certain sense of ownership within the private industry.

The Ordinary Heroes of the Taj


> During the onslaught on the Taj Mumbai, 31 people died and 28 were hurt, but the hotel received only praise the day after. Its guests were overwhelmed by employees’ dedication to duty, their desire to protect guests without regard to personal safety, and their quick thinking. Restaurant and banquet staff rushed people to safe locations such as kitchens and basements. Telephone operators stayed at their posts, alerting guests to lock doors and not step out. Kitchen staff formed human shields to protect guests during evacuation attempts. As many as 11 Taj Mumbai employees—a third of the hotel’s casualties—laid down their lives while helping between 1,200 and 1,500 guests escape.



This can be put to good use because of the fact that the Indian partner is a complete novice in the aerospace industry. They will be more than willing to learn Dassault's way. It is possible that Dassault may introduce new practices and technologies compared to what they have in France.

People in the private industry are potentially well-oiled drones with good work ethics.

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> This was proven during the Mumbai attacks where the staff from the Taj Hotel went beyond the call of duty trying to safeguard their guests during the midst of a terrorist attack instead of running away.



No problem with or doubt about Bharatis' courage but it doesn't translate into industrial know-how.

If you go beyond the call of duty on tightening a bolt assembly, it seizes or breaks!!!
Trust me on this one, I've done both?

Good day , Tay.

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## Stephen Cohen

Taygibay said:


> No problem or doubt with Bharatis' courage but it doesn't translate to industrial know-how.



Yes that was a bad analogy 

@randomradio 

The Maruti Suzuki JV and the Hero Honda JV are better examples of The Indian 
private sector going far to beat both their partner's expectations as well as that 
of the consumers

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> No problem with or doubt about Bharatis' courage but it doesn't translate to industrial know-how.
> 
> If you go beyond the call of duty on tightening a bolt assembly, it seizes or breaks!!!
> Trust me on this one, I've done both?
> 
> Good day , Tay.



My analogy was to point out the sense of ownership the employees had to their job. Courage was not the point.

The problem with the MMRCA deal was HAL was not willing to pick up Dassault's production methods. As a typical PSU, the HAL has more manpower than necessary. HAL wanted less automation, did not want to buy the same tools as what Dassault uses. This obviously created all the friction between them and all the drama that you have seen to date.

Not using the same tools would mean re-certification of the aircraft. Using less automation mean less quality. And so on.

This is where Reliance shines. They are clueless, which means they are willing to learn. Private sector employees are complete opposites of the public sector employees. And Reliance has a lot of buying power. So they can attract really good talent. And through the entire production run, Dassault will have significant executive control over the Indian partner. I'm actually pretty confident about the future of all these clueless private companies in the aerospace sector.

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## BON PLAN

Samskara said:


> Russia could afford to go ahead with Mistral deal without a guarantee, They have a fearsome reputation backed by more than 1,500 Nukes. They have a huge history of ship building


That huge history seems not enough to make proper Mistral class ships. 
They baught ships and ToT.
At the end, and it's a french choice, they don't have the ships but the ToT. Not too bad from russian side in fact.

And 1500 nukes are useless in such a deal. even 10 are useless (but more than sufficient)


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## Taygibay

Samskara said:


> What a joy it must be for you to learn new things.



Indeed! ( And a rare good call on you part, I may add! )
What sadness however that I cannot always impart as much ( Joy of Learning ) on others ...
enough said!

Tay.


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## Stephen Cohen

@Samskara 

Do you think that we can re open the IGA for re negotiation


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## Taygibay

Samskara said:


> It must be tough being you. All the best in peddling your wares.



It is but because of this nagging thing called a soul, not for the ludicrous kid stuff you imply! 

And the only thing I peddle is truth ... which is likely why you're so antagonistic! You can't stand it!

Have fun with the inevitable last word, I'll go join my mate on his lunch break, Tay


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## Stephen Cohen

Samskara said:


> It is consequential because its the first time we have such transparency in a large deal. Most times its all cloak and dagger till the time we find out we have been screwed many times over.
> 
> I find this new approach quite refreshing and most people will take some time to get used to this. Expect the french to bitch and whine all the way to the bank.
> 
> Also I have encountered both performance AND Financial BG in all my international contracts. It is also true that there are exit clauses that ensure BG is not invoked and a work around solution is found. But that does not mean they are not there in a contact. Most times they form the non retractable part of the contact.
> 
> Between nations there is no safeguard against bad Faith , but BG can provide suitable Leverage to reduce probability of any such inspired tricks.



How about India taking a Loan from A French bank say BNP Paribas

Make it a Three party deal ; let the BNP finance the deal 

If Dassault screws us we screw the Bank ie BNP

At the most we pay some interest


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## PARIKRAMA

Pls read below

An article

*Rafale fighter Jet deal in trouble: Here's why French govt is shirking liability*
*The disagreement over liability further complicates any early conclusion of the Rafale contract*
Ajai Shukla | New Delhi March 15, 2016 Last Updated at 00:32 IST



Around 2004, when the Indian Air Force (IAF) ordered some 40 additional Sukhoi-30MKI fighters from Russia, *India’s cabinet exempted Moscow from providing bank guarantees to cover “performance and delivery liabilities” for the new aircraft. Russia had insisted on this exceptional waiver,* given its strategic relationship with India and the Su-30MKI’s proven performance. In the years ahead, New Delhi was to regret not binding Moscow to specific liabilities, as the Su-30MKI consistently disappointed the IAF with availability rates of below 50 per cent.

Now, with New Delhi and Paris having inked an inter-governmental agreement (IGA) on January 25 for the purchase of 36 Rafale fighters, France, like Russia in 2004, is resisting sovereign liabilities that would make the government of France, not just Dassault alone, responsible for delivery or performance shortfalls in the Rafale.

India’s defence ministry, like weapons buyers everywhere, insists on writing “liabilities” into contracts for defence equipment. These are usually backed by bank guarantees that New Delhi can encash if the equipment’s delivery or performance is not according to the contract. On Monday, Indian Express reported that the Ministry of Law and Justice has insisted on sovereign guarantees.

But Paris, like Moscow earlier, wants to provide just a “letter of comfort”, the disparaging term for a written (but commercially un-enforceable) government undertaking to enforce the contract provisions. 

Added to the already difficult negotiations over the Rafale’s cost, which the defence ministry considers exorbitant at Euro 11-12 billion, and wants to bring down to no more than Euro 9 billion, the disagreement over liability further complicates any early conclusion of the Rafale contract.

Knowledgeable insiders speculate that New Delhi might be attempting to help reduce Dassault’s cost by shifting liability to the French government. A bank guarantee would cost Dassault 3-4 per cent of its value, while a sovereign guarantee incurs no cost.

Paris and Dassault have even earlier backed away from incorporating liabilities into the Rafale contract. In long-drawn and eventually fruitless negotiations between 2012-15 for 126 Rafales, Dassault had declined to accept liability for 108 fighters that were to be built in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). This was one of the thorniest issues that led to a breakdown in negotiations.

“Usually, a written liability that binds the vendor company would prove adequate in a defence contract. However, since the French government has taken a leading role in pushing the Rafale contract, it should not back away from taking on liability”, says Amit Cowshish, a former financial advisor for defence ministry acquisitions. 

According to the defence procurement procedure (DPP), an aerospace contract should involve a signing amount of no more than 15 per cent, another 70 per cent paid out in step with delivery milestones, and about 15 per cent retained for the warranty period to cover defects, if they arise.

*Yet, the defence ministry has been paying as much as 20-25 per cent while signing the contract, and even paying out the 15 per cent warranty amount, satisfying itself with a bank guarantee for that amount.*

“Arms vendors and supplier countries are notoriously reluctant to accept liabilities written into contracts. However, it is essential for our defence ministry to demand these, so as to have a mechanism for enforcing multi-billion dollar contracts”, says SN Misra, a former defence ministry aerospace contracting veteran.

Interestingly, Washington follows an entirely different system for Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contracts, in which the US Department of Defense (Pentagon) concludes contracts with US arms vendors on behalf of the purchasing country. For purchases like the C-130J and C-17 Globemaster III, India has been depositing 40 per cent of the contract value into an escrow account with the US Federal Reserve. This serves as a “termination guarantee”, in case the buyer government unilaterally terminates the contract. The “liability” is negotiated separately between the Pentagon and the vendor company.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi had requested French President Francois Hollande last April for 36 Rafale fighters on a “fast track” basis. In January, the two countries had signed an “inter-governmental agreement” during Hollande’s visit to India. Almost two months later, no contract is in sight.
Rafale fighter Jet deal in trouble: Here's why French govt is shirking liability | Business Standard News
+++

Mr Shukla Article is 15th... Now look at my responses yesterday 14th.. see this







Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 178





Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 181


*So strangely when i explained here everything in simple lucid terms the facts, the thread is here to see the results..*

@Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Spectre @randomradio @Stephen Cohen @Picdelamirand-oil 

@Stephen Cohen 
Apologies i did not reply ydy night as i took a voluntary break from this thread to collect my thoughts.. 
An IGA or Inter Governmental Agreement will have a first Draft form which requires clearances from both government multiple departments including Legal and Justice department. This to and fro mechanism will continue till a middle ground comes into the vicinity and both sides are agreeable to it.

As of now what i understand is this document contains everything from the product Rafale, to specs, to numbers to every accompanied package details to vendor names to what India wants in customization, servicing, spares to whatever we can think about.. Its basically a whole story book with schedules of delivery and other things. It also contains the offset and manufacturing line requirement and tangible technology transfer which i had tried to explain before. (It may include or delete many more things surely)

This IGA is signed between governments of India and France. After this individual contracts in legal parlance accommodating everything in IGA in legal contracts is signed between DA and India and DA and French Government. In our contract the financial liability part will be in that contract as agreed in the IGA.

Thus, if i understand and spell out clearly, the Justice and Legal department issues have to be when they got the *"draft"* IGA for an opinion and clearance. Of course they may have raised their opinions which would have then sent to MOD/PMO and again negotiated with French government. Ultimately the MOU to IGA was agreed bcz IGA also needs to incorporate the price part which is what S Jaishanker said here

From 26th Jan 2016
_The two sides expressed optimism that cost issues will be resolved soon and an MoU signed on the inter-governnmental agreement for the purchase of the jets.
The IGA will be concluded “in its entirety” once the cost issues are agreed upon, foreign secretary S. Jaishankar said.

A joint statement said Prime Minister Modi and President Hollande “welcomed the conclusion of the Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) on the acquisition of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft in flyaway condition, except for some financial issues... which they agreed must be resolved as soon as possible.”_





Rafale MoU with France, but price still unresolved

The 18th Feb news of DM MP said




No Rafale deal unless price is right: Parrikar | Business Standard News

Thus, if you see for signing an MOU some form of clearance has to be granted from our Legal and Justice department without which the MOU to IGA wont have been signed. Now what they have cleared is not known in public domain. *But going by DM MP statement the "terms of guarantees" is resolved implying that portion was cleared by Law and Justice department.. Of course the clearance has to be prior to signing when draft was circulated.*

As for exceptions or deviations, this government is fully aware of a watch dog named CAG which has ripped apart old government on Coal Gate, 3G and defense deal lacunae. So I am sure, present government will do everything to not earn the wrath of CAG and lose the next elections by earning a bad name.

The IGA will have some exit clause surely but if we are talking about a possibility of renegotiating, it has to be mutually agreed.. One side alone cannot force a negotiation.. Its a honorary commitment between governments.

This is why the news to me is *Pre 25th Jan 2016* news which is leaked now to portray the deal in bad light.

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## topgun047

Ajay Shukla bringing up the example of Russia to make a point about need for a guarantee of sorts in Rafale deal is some sort of a joke according to PDF resident expert on jokes Mr. Spectre.

I am laughing rest assured.

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## Ankit Kumar

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/709515233438474241
A friend messaged me yesterday when we were having usual chat about aircrafts , gliders etc. 

"भूत, प्रेत , Rafale और मासूम Girlfrnd मन का वहम है, ऐसा कुछ नहीं होता ........"

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## Didact

PARIKRAMA said:


> Pls read below
> 
> Thus, if you see for signing an MOU some form of clearance has to be granted from our Legal and Justice department without which the MOU to IGA wont have been signed. Now what they have cleared is not known in public domain. But going by DM MP statement the "terms of guarantees" is resolved implying that portion was cleared by Law and Justice department.. Of course the clearance has to be prior to signing when draft was circulated.
> 
> As for exceptions or deviations, this government is fully aware of a watch dog named CAG which has ripped apart old government on Coal Gate, 3G and defense deal lacunae. So I am sure, present government will do everything to not earn the wrath of CAG and lose the next elections by earning a bad name.
> 
> The IGA will have some exit clause surely but if we are talking about a possibility of renegotiating, it has to be mutually agreed.. One side alone cannot force a negotiation.. Its a honorary commitment between governments.
> 
> This is why the news to me is *Pre 25th Jan 2016* news which is leaked now to portray the deal in bad light.



Ajay Shukla's 'news' needs to be taken with a bucket of salt. That being said, it does reveal a tussle between the MoD and the Law and Justice Dept. over this deal, a fact which is being overlooked by everyone discussing the deal.* There is also another tussle that would be playing out behind the scenes, the MoD vs the Finance Ministry.*

The IGA clearance by the Finance Ministry is contingent on meeting the estimated price as quoted by the MoD to these departments.* The MoD is allowed a flexibility of anywhere between 5%-10% of the estimated price, meaning that the clearance would be valid for a price variation of 5-10% in the final contract. *

As I understand it,* the MoD estimated Rs 60,000 crore as the contract price, implying a clearance of Rs 54,000-66,000 crore for the final contract from the other ministries.* If the contract price exceeds this limit, the Finance Ministry is automatically compelled to review it's clearance, a process that would under best circumstances take 2-3 months after a final contract price is arrived at. *We are also talking about the CAG & the CVC getting involved, due to the difference between estimation and actual contract value exceeding 50%. *

The issue could have been avoided had the MoD put forward a practical estimate. The MoD will deserve it's share of the blame as far as this issue is concerned.

Now as far as the Rs 90,000 crore being put forward as the tentative cost is concerned, it is most definitely coming from the bureaucrats in the MoD, so this figure will deserve a degree of respect, even though it is almost definitely the Anti-Rafale clique spreading this number. If that really is the actual price of the contract , there will be intense renegotiation between the MoD and the Finance Ministry.

*There is also the very real possibility that there may be a parliamentary committee, given the scale and nature of the difference between government estimate and the final contract; meaning a hold on the deal.* People opposed to this deal have plenty of options to stall this contract. It's been a monumental blunder, the negotiation.

The Government is quickly reaching a position where it will have to weigh in the negative political fallout of signing a deal at 50% escalation vs the advantages it hopes to gather from signing this deal.

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## ZedZeeshan

I wonder for how long India will keep on lingering this deal. Its been like 10 years. As far as my understanding more delay will give opportunity to the french gov to increase price and resulting more negotiations and will eventually go to next year.. this is what is happening till now..


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## randomradio

> In the years ahead, New Delhi was to regret not binding Moscow to specific liabilities, as the Su-30MKI consistently disappointed the IAF with availability rates of below 50 per cent.



What an amazing spin doctor.

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## PARIKRAMA

What people dont understand is what are the conditions under which a Sovereign Guarantee is given by a government. This point alone actually debunks the whole theory of "binding a government" statement.

If it was so easy that a Sovereign Guarantee is provided for a weapons deal supply then the basic purpose and motto behind this SG falls flat across the governments of this whole planet..

When i assess in my own personal capacity the risk rating of country specifically, the aspects are looked at much more details.. In general it is for economic purpose and foremost for the welfare of the country's citizen. A SG given for banks, public utilities and in emergency cases any deal which benefits the citizen is the paramount agenda behind this State binding need of SG.

TBH SG is the actual unlisted burden to every individual citizen of the country. A fact which is so dangerous and overlooked that anything going wrong in State Owned Enterprises, Public Utilities or Important Projects is generally accepted with the notion that Government will bail it out yet its quality aspect and non performance/deliquency directly effects the Country Rating and attached risk price in the whole financial/economical system of the country and abroad based investments.

Most economies today get SG for energy projects or basic utilities project like Water Services, Some benefits are given to SOEs for their business which is vitally important for the country. A weapons deal backed by SG for supply is not only against the spirit of SG it in facts dilute the very basis of SG which forms the pillar of support for all SOEs

My good friend @Spectre here knows how we have discussed on the quality aspect of China's investment abroad particular via its SOEs. Those SOE's are backed by SGs and yet we have discussed that quality aspect of those investments makes us suspicious of the actual Chinese economy's condition and steps taken to ensure these dont get crystallized and become bigger liabilities.

Thus, this case also is a similar aspect for understanding how difficult it is to furnish an SG..

Imagine our own situation.. Lets suppose tomo we sell a squadron of LCA Tejas to Sri Lanka and SL government states we need a SG from GOI to ensure HAL(even though its a PSU) delivers all the LCA on time and do not create any supply issues. Do you think its easy for GOI to give a SG which is to be first recommended for approval by Ministry of Finance and then needs an approval from our Parliament. Even GOI would give a LOI and Comfort Letter at best. The rule books which i posted before for GOI does not allow SGs for supporting a weapons deal even for SOEs. Its that explicit and that complex.

Yes we must bind the weapon makers and arms dealer.. But thats via PBG/FBG mode... Expecting SG is like fishing in a local pond and saying i will today catch a Salmon come what may..

We must be pragmatic and a realist.. We have to bind them but under other rules and regulations which are generally acceptable across the Industry and is truly a proven industry practice

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## PARIKRAMA

Samskara said:


> When the final deal is negotiated and signed, the Finance ministry will pay irrespective of the amount. Their representative will be part of the Negotiation committee.
> 
> MoD had put forward an estimate for the MMRCA, but since the cost has exceeded that, the whole MMRCA has been scraped. However the L1 for the MMRCA was the new base point for negotiations.
> 
> There is No "Tussle" between the MoD and Law dept. Both are doing their respective job. It is unlikely they resent each other for doing their job.
> 
> A parliamentary committee is impossible since this is not the UPA and that style of governance. In the Modi govt. everyone knows where the buck stops.
> 
> This is a govt. that has nothing to hide, so it is unlikely to be "frightened" by any delays or "allegations".
> 
> This is NOT the UPA, stop thinking like you would do for the UPA.
> 
> 
> 
> What a Moronic understanding of Sovereign Guarantee.
> 
> For a sale of LCA to Sri Lanka, the SG will not ensure HAL timely delivery, but that HAL will ensure delivery and that GoI will not interfere in the delivery schedule.
> 
> Lets say for e.g. if the US decides to aks India to delay the LCA supply to SL.
> 
> Being "pragmatic" and "realisti" does not translate to being "stupid" and "short shighted" and bending over.




Do you even read when the word "supply" side issues are written.. Sadly, you are yet to come up with anything credible but your jest and replies only showcases the lack of understanding for the case of SGs

What you dont want to say or rather not say is will India give a SG to SL saying we wont stop the supply of LCA under any conditions? First answer that and prove that with requisite clause under which an SG can be furnished for such a case..

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## topgun047

PARIKRAMA said:


> Do you even read when the word "supply" side issues are written.. Sadly, you are yet to come up with anything credible but your jest and replies only showcases the lack of understanding for the case of SGs
> 
> What you dont want to say or rather not say is will India give a SG to SL saying we wont stop the supply of LCA under any conditions? First answer that and prove that with requisite clause under which an SG can be furnished for such a case..



So instead of supporting GoI you are batting for Dassault ?If so, why ?
I would argue in favor of SG in case of Rafale and against it in hypothetical case of LCA to SL.

Real world does not work on fairness.

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## PARIKRAMA

Samskara said:


> IF GoI is pushing to sell the LCA to SL, then I have no doubt that if SL demands a SG from GoI, India will oblige.
> 
> Is that clear enough for you ?
> 
> India regularly gives Sovereign Guarantees for the following,
> 
> 1. To improve viability of projects or activities with significant social and economic benefits, undertaken by government or non-government entities under Public Private Partnership.
> 
> 2. ;To enable public sector companies to raise resources at lower interest charges or on more favourable terms;
> 
> 3. To fulfill the requirement in cases where sovereign guarantee is a precondition for concessional loans from bilateral/multilateral agencies to sub-sovereign borrowers.
> 
> 
> This is not a new thing, it only happens to be new to you and hence this attempt to make it sound like something Mind boggling.



LOL you just committed the suicide here..

Look at what you wrote.. all those points are for what end purpose in mind.. For the people and the economic well being of the country.. That is exactly defined for the criteria under which SG can be furnished..


I again say Back your statement that GOI can furnish a SG for a weapons platform sell under any clause that is defined for issuance of SG.. 

I had pasted the SG issuance clauses before few pages.. and sadly, your version does not fit into any of that..

So pls substantiate your assertion with proof



topgun047 said:


> So instead of supporting GoI you are batting for Dassault ?If so, why ?
> I would argue in favor of SG in case of Rafale and against it in hypothetical case of LCA to SL.
> 
> Real world does not work on fairness.



Superb, then i ask you also the same question.. Pls provide a link or a rule under which we oursleves can provide an SG or not.. Bcz every country will have its own rule book and approved law under which certain things can be given and certain things cannot be given..

Pls check with first India's own case as its something we have access to.. I will soon post here if French government conditions under which SG can be given.. Its requested from my french counterpart in my own office.. If its there, i will paste it for easier understanding ..

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## Spectre

Samskara said:


> What a Moronic understanding of Sovereign Guarantee.
> 
> For a sale of LCA to Sri Lanka, the SG will not ensure HAL timely delivery, but that HAL will ensure delivery and that GoI will not interfere in the delivery schedule.
> 
> Lets say for e.g. if the US decides to aks India to delay the LCA supply to SL.
> 
> Being "pragmatic" and "realistic" does not translate to being "stupid" and "short shighted" and bending over.



Oh Dear! Do you really think that's all SG means? you are confusing the political risk with financial risks. To be fair SG does cover political risks but that's not just it. 

I can pretty confidently extrapolate that we are not worried about political risks on behalf of the French. I can't speak for the SG/BG India is insisting on but majority of it should be pretty standard boiler plate stuff regarding maintenance, availability, delivery schedules and exceptions like force majeure clauses. 

India will never give a guarantee* without an exit clause or exceptions *ensuring supply of ACs as that would be like surrendering sovereignty and allow SL unheard degree of leverage over India. 

@PARIKRAMA Iron Clad liability clause is an important issue and needs to be incorporated in the contract. I don't care if it is SG or BG or retention of money via an escrow account or a revolving LC mechanism via a bank (preferably Indian) which ensures need for certification from end user of satisfaction before releasing each tranche of money.

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## topgun047

PARIKRAMA said:


> LOL you just committed the suicide here..
> 
> Look at what you wrote.. all those points are for what end purpose in mind.. For the people and the economic well being of the country.. That is exactly defined for the criteria under which SG can be furnished..
> 
> 
> I again say Back your statement that GOI can furnish a SG for a weapons platform sell under any clause that is defined for issuance of SG..
> 
> I had pasted the SG issuance clauses before few pages.. and sadly, your version does not fit into any of that..
> 
> So pls substantiate your assertion with proof
> 
> 
> 
> Superb, then i ask you also the same question.. Pls provide a link or a rule under which we oursleves can provide an SG or not.. Bcz every country will have its own rule book and approved law under which certain things can be given and certain things cannot be given..
> 
> Pls check with first India's own case as its something we have access to.. I will soon post here if French government conditions under which SG can be given.. Its requested from my french counterpart in my own office.. If its there, i will paste it for easier understanding ..



Whether India or France can do it is irrelevant.

Rules can be changed.So I ask you again whose side are you batting on?

India, France or fairness ?

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## Spectre

Samskara said:


> That was in reply to a specific question.
> 
> T*he current SG sought by the GoI seems to be a guarantee against bad faith or political risk. Not Financial risk. *
> 
> All SG are conditional and that goes without saying. I don't see the need to state the obvious. Do you ?



If this is indeed so then it is idiotic. Conditionality aspect is important - some times conditions make the principal useless.

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## rockstarIN

All these agreement stuff really indicates we should not close LCA programme at any cost and should continue more R&D, investing more into new designs and air frames.

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## PARIKRAMA

Samskara said:


> Because I have quoted the SG provide for Financial packages you idiot.
> 
> SG also extends to,
> 
> 1. Performance guarantees given for fulfilment of contracts / projects awarded to Indian companies in foreign countries.
> 
> 2. Performance guarantees given for fulfilment of contracts / projects awarded to Foreign companies in foreign countries
> 
> *
> I cannot provide links yet, *




Superb after 5 pages of posts you now went to financial packages part and yet before that you mentioned something else.. From yesterday you are unclear with your assumption that you know well about this topic when the reality is you know "ZERO" about the SG part

FYI - Any SOE or a Government backed Financial institute offering a loan is covered by SG that in case the public Bank faces a situation of delinquency and risks are so high that its operations itself is under question, The government will step in to bail the bank/financial institutes out..

In case of a weapons deal like Rafale sale in Egypt, Egypt was provided with Loans from French Banks which were backed by SG of French government that in case of default by Egyptian government /or non payment , French government will bear that liability

No where its mentioned that French government had given a SG for ensuring that supply of Rafales wont be stopped under any condition.

The SG in case of such financial loans are implicitly the risks which i had talked over last 5-6 pages and are the untold burden on every individual of a nation.

As for SGs furnished, pls check what kind of projects that can be given for..

FYI again pasting for your own read and understanding












Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 179

The last point Vi and Vii are what you are quoting but look above under what conditions they can be given.

And now define how the SG backed financial package incorporates the non supply clause that you want France needs to bear and incorporates that "liability" clause.

Check again and pls give details.. i will wait for the time you back it up with proof..

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## PARIKRAMA

topgun047 said:


> Whether India or France can do it is irrelevant.
> 
> Rules can be changed.So I ask you again whose side are you batting on?
> 
> India, France or fairness ?



I bat for the truth which is possible and is already there to substantiate every assertion.. If you dont believe my flags or you feel that i am less "Indian" then pls feel free to complain to the management here and in case you want ask them for my IP to trace me and meet me in person..

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## PARIKRAMA

Samskara said:


> I am not interested in participating with you in a drama where you pretend to teach SG by copy pasting from google. I would like to cut through all this BS.
> 
> 
> I fail to understand your point. DO YOU HAVE A POINT ?
> 
> Are you saying we do not required SG from France ? Because you "trust" france and dassault ?




Do not deflect the question when you cannot counter any argument. I am asking again under what condition that an SG can be given by France for the Rafale sell to India where they guarantee the non risk of disruption of supply under any condition..

You talked about financial package in the form of SG. Again i said pls prove it.. You can keep dodging and dont relay the truth whereas i am piling on evidence one by one saying how its difficult and nearly impossible for any nation to guarantee such clause when the Law of land does not allow such cases of guarantee to be given and is not defined in Individual country's rule book in case of SG.

Here is a leading example of SG backed loan for any customer
+++

Ministry of Finance
xxx country name
*SOVEREIGN GUARANTEE*​

In consideration of xxxxx Employer (the "Facility User") having entered into a Facility Agreement dated..................for the amount ............ (in words: ..................................) a copy of which is annexed hereto, ("the Facility Agreement") ("the Creditor") whereby the Creditor has agreed to make available to the Facility User a credit facility (the "Facility") upon the terms and subject to the conditions contained in the Facility Agreement, the Ministry of Finance of the Republic of xxxx ("Guarantor") hereby agrees to pay to the Creditor, within 60 (sixty) days after the Creditor’s written demand all sums which may at any time be explicitly due and payable, but are not paid when due, by the Facility User under the Facility Agreement.

The Guarantor’s obligations under this Guarantee shall in no event exceed the sum of all payments which explicitly will become due and payable under the Facility Agreement.

Any demand addressed to the Guarantor hereunder by the Creditor shall be in a written form and indicate that the Facility User has failed to pay when due any or all sums explicitly payable under the Facility Agreement.

All payments here under shall be made within 90 (ninety) days after a demand being made here under and in the currency in which the respective amount claimed is expressed to be due and payable under the Facility Agreement, free of any deduction and withholding.

The Liability of the Guarantor here under shall be discharged and the Guarantee shall expire only by the complete payment by the Facility User or the Guarantor of all sums which may at any time be due and payable under the Facility Agreement.

This Guarantee is not assignable.

This Guarantee shall be governed and construed in accordance with ____ Law. All disputes arising from or in connection with this Guarantee shall be settled first by amicable negotiations in good faith. In case the said disputes are not settled within 60 (sixty) days from receipt of notification from either party, the said disputes arising in connection with this Guarantee shall be finally settled under the Rules of Conciliation and Arbitration of the International Chamber of Commerce, Paris by 3 (three) arbitrators. Each party will nominate 1 (one) arbitrator, the third arbitrator acting as chairman being appointed by the other 2 (two) arbitrator or __ failing such appointment of ___by the Court of Arbitration of the International Chamber of Commerce. The arbitration shall be conducted in English language. Place of Arbitration shall be ____________ (Normally Geneva , Swizerland)

All communications of the parties shall be sent to the following addresses:

*For the Guarantor to:*

Ministry of Finance of the Republic of xxxx.
Address:
*For the Creditor to:*
..............................................................................................
..............................................................................................
..............................................................................................
..............................................................................................

This Guarantee will become valid and effective upon acknowledgement of receipt thereof by the Creditor in ............................................

This Guarantee is executed in two copies in the English language.

Issued in xxx , The Republic of xxxx on ...........................date

*Minister of Finance*


..................................... (Creditor) hereby acknowledges the receipt of this Guarantee in ......................on ......................and hereby accepts this Guarantee.

For and on behalf of 


++++

As you see in simple most terms, the SG given for a financial backed package does no incorporate anything what liability you are proposing that France should hold .. At best the words used is _"All disputes arising from or in connection with this Guarantee shall be settled first by amicable negotiations in *good faith*_. "

This is precisely why i am again saying certain things cannot be given or incorporated so easily as we want.

About the trust part, the weapon deal payment term will have a signing amount, advance amount, payment of tranches and retention.. Each of those will be backed by Cash or FBG/PBG or both especially the retention part which will be released only when the entire fate of the deal execution is backed by results and timeline as dictated in the Contract agreement.

The best case of SG can be for the financial loan package for the deal by French government. Thats a risk for mitigating the scope of default not for non supply under any condition

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## PARIKRAMA

Samskara said:


> Let me put it in a language you can understand.
> 
> I don't give a FCUK about "under what condition" france can provide a SG for the Rafale deal.
> 
> THAT is THEIR PROBLEM, not Mine. How hard can it be to understand that ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Guarantee ENSURES that disputes are settled in GOOD FAITH. Otherwise the consequences are harsh.
> 
> THAT is why its such a great thing.
> 
> It is rather obvious that the current Guarantees does not fully cover our risk. It is for France to provide us when an acceptable solution if the solution we have proposed is not implementable.
> 
> Either way, its their problem and under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should it be our.
> 
> 
> 
> For the last time, keep you replies to 3-5 lines. Talk to the point rather than drone on and on about general gyan.




So now you are angry and pissed bcz you cannot substantiate your assertion with facts, figures, logic and rationality.. Only whims and fancies run by desires..

Superb.. I expected this from you..

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## Spectre

Samskara said:


> How is safe guarding our interest idiotic ?
> 
> If france has no intention to show bad faith or use it as a political weapon, what is their objection to the SG ?
> 
> SG is a problem for them only when their intentions are suspect and that seems to be the case.



I just told you so - No country gives a blanket guarantee and conditional Sovereign guarantees often contain so many loop holes and exit clauses that it becomes useless as a an article of ensuring good faith.

If French are dealing in bad faith and one has concrete suspicions that they are making a Bakra out of us then scrap the bloody deal and get it over with. Why would GoI want to deal with a duplicitous seller who is gonna sell you out for a slightest change in the headwinds?

This is not how we do business - legal framework is all well and good but no substitute for integrity in commerce. If one wants to screw you they can very well interpret the agreement differently and case will drag on in expensive arbitration for decades.

Look at how US deals with Pakistan! Despite them hating the guts of Pakistan for screwing them 10 ways to Sunday - they have still honored the legacy contract for balance of 18 F-16s.

@PARIKRAMA - With all due respect this is what I was talking about earlier when I said the time is not conducive for Rafale induction. There are many interests who are working over time to make non issues into issues. Yesterday it was X today Y and tomorrow Z. And this when the deal is not even signed. The fallout after the hardened contract is made public will be worse.

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## PARIKRAMA

Spectre said:


> @PARIKRAMA - With all due respect this is what I was talking about earlier when I said the time is not conducive for Rafale induction. There are many interests who are working over time to make non issues into issues. Yesterday it was X today Y and tomorrow Z. And this when the deal is not even signed. The fallout after the hardened contract is made public will be worse.



Indeed my good friend you are 100% correct.. I wish we had a better way of dealing all this without creating such a confused state of affairs..

I sincerely hope now that its GOI/MOD or DM MP who can come out with a proper statement dispelling such news items and provide a clarity with which everyone has a clear understanding about the deal contours.

I know for sure DA does not like to comment much.. But then again Trappier confidence and smile for talking 36 and later 90 under MII showed how far the deal has matured..The normally secretive Trappier talking about it so openly showed confidence that its almost but done or else he is a smart man and would have kept mum.

Seeing this, I am cent percent sure that coming days more such anonymous news will pop up questioning the deal contours which are not there in public domain.

Lets see how things work out my good friend..

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## Abingdonboy

Spectre said:


> @PARIKRAMA - With all due respect this is what I was talking about earlier when I said the time is not conducive for Rafale induction. There are many interests who are working over time to make non issues into issues. Yesterday it was X today Y and tomorrow Z. And this when the deal is not even signed. The fallout after the hardened contract is made public will be worse.


So because of some idiots in the rabid media being willing to take payments in return for printing blatent lies India should cease all military deals? The pilots still flying MiG-21s and 27s will be be more than understanding that their lives are intentionally being put at risk because the poltical enviroment is not "conducive" to the solving of these issues. Why not just stand down the military now? With that kind of thinking it hardly makes sense to selectively fund such a toothless entity. You have themedia working both sides, on one hand they attack all imports on the other hand they attack all domestic projects, using your prescription military deals should immediately cease.

What deal in India isn't surrounded in this kind of muck because vested interests play these dirty games? What's your solution? Lay down and let them win?

Was this government not elected to be decisive? Running away is not leadership.

Once the deal is signed the voices disappear, it has happened again and again.


@PARIKRAMA I think I'll retire from here for a while, this nonsense has gone too far now and it's exactly what those vested interests were seeking. They have attacked the Rafale deal from every angle-cost, technical prowess, ToT, offsets, comprising dmoestic efforts etc and every time they have been rubbished but now they have created the sentiment @Spectre has exhibited- defeat. Not on any reasonable grounds but because it's just too much effort now to stick ton one's guns or to do what is best for the military, the situation isn't "conducive" to a deal so let's just let sleeping dogs lay. It's rather sickening really.


Keep up your great work my friend.


@anant_s @Levina @ni8mare @MilSpec @Taygibay @Ankit Kumar @Stephen Cohen

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> So because of some idiots in the rabid media being willing to take payments in return for printing blatent lies India should cease all military deals? The pilots still flying MiG-21s and 27s will be be more than understanding that their lives are intentionally being put at risk because the poltical enviroment is not "conducive" to the solving of these issues. Why not just stand down the military now? With that kind of thinking it hardly makes sense to selectively fund such a toothless entity. You have themedia working both sides, on one hand they attack all imports on the other hand they attack all domestic projects, using your prescription military deals should immediately cease.
> 
> What deal in India isn't surrounded in this kind of muck because vested interests play these dirty games? What's your solution? Lay down and let them win?
> 
> Was this government not elected to be decisive? Running away is not leadership.
> 
> Once the deal is signed the voices disappear, it has happened again and again.
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA I think I'll retire from here for a while, this nonsense has gone too far now and it's exactly what those vested interests were seeking. They have attacked the Rafale deal from every angle-cost, technical prowess, ToT, offsets, comprising dmoestic efforts etc and every time they have been rubbished but now they have created the sentiment @Spectre has exhibited- defeat. Not on any reasonable grounds but because it's just too much effort now to stick ton one's guns or to do what is best for the military, the situation isn't "conducive" to a deal so let's just let sleeping dogs lay. It's rather sickening really.
> 
> 
> Keep up your great work my friend.
> 
> 
> @anant_s @Levina @ni8mare @MilSpec @Taygibay @Ankit Kumar @Stephen Cohen


hold on my friend... There are lot more topics then just Rafale deal..

Dont just retire , better is to slow down and be selective in certain discussions.. Even i ydy evening night took a break and was looking at everythin else other than Rafale..

Check and see how @Vauban and @Taygibay been selective in this topic or even @Picdelamirand-oil who had avoided all the usual discussions and stick to only the good ones..

It would be a great shame if you retire from here.. I say better look at other topics more...

About mentality, it will change when the deal contours are revealed over time.. It makes sense to see that good day then to let go and forget about what we discuss here in this forum...

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## Spectre

Abingdonboy said:


> So because of some idiots in the rabid media being willing to take payments in return for printing blatent lies India should cease all military deals? The pilots still flying MiG-21s and 27s will be be more than understanding that their lives are intentionally being put at risk because the poltical enviroment is not "conducive" to the solving of these issues. Why not just stand down the military now? With that kind of thinking it hardly makes sense to selectively fund such a toothless entity. You have themedia working both sides, on one hand they attack all imports on the other hand they attack all domestic projects, using your prescription military deals should immediately cease.
> 
> What deal in India isn't surrounded in this kind of muck because vested interests play these dirty games? What's your solution? Lay down and let them win?
> 
> Was this government not elected to be decisive? Running away is not leadership.
> 
> Once the deal is signed the voices disappear, it has happened again and again.
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA I think I'll retire from here for a while, this nonsense has gone too far now and it's exactly what those vested interests were seeking. They have attacked the Rafale deal from every angle-cost, technical prowess, ToT, offsets, comprising dmoestic efforts etc and every time they have been rubbished but now they have created the sentiment @Spectre has exhibited- defeat. Not on any reasonable grounds but because it's just too much effort now to stick ton one's guns or to do what is best for the military, the situation isn't "conducive" to a deal so let's just let sleeping dogs lay. It's rather sickening really.
> 
> 
> Keep up your great work my friend.
> 
> 
> @anant_s @Levina @ni8mare @MilSpec @Taygibay @Ankit Kumar @Stephen Cohen



Tone down the rhetoric. There is lot more at play here than the Rafales, A government has only so much political capital and for heaven's sake vultures aren't even out yet - once the contract is finalized then you will the see the drama which would set back Indian defence procurement for decades.

We are just coming out of the shadow of St. Anthony and I would hate for the defence procurement to paralyzed again due to innuendos of kickbacks - they key tactic here is to

a. Push the smaller deals through first with minimum of noise - Gunships, Artillery, Small Arms, Logisitic Aircrafts etc

b. Establish the framework for Indignation. @PARIKRAMA wrote an eye opening piece on new Defence Acquisition Framework. Sure it ain't sexy like Rafales but this what will lay the foundation of a strong republic in days to come.

c. Push big ticket priority items through in the order below

1. S-400
2. Subs
3. Rafales
4. PAKFA

My suggestion to GoI is to buy Rafales in tranches - 18->36->54->90->126 with each tranche coming with iterative improvements, same base price but increasing total price inclusive of add-ons. 18 Rafales will keep the French busy for two years and by that time we will have clarity on domestic production.

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## Ankit Kumar

We have still not made New 9mm pistols available to our men,we still depend upon those heavy Browning Hi power.

Forget Rafale, The C295 deal is still no where near a done deal.

The first thing should be choppers,we are dammed due to our age old ones. And artillery.

And for gods sake, someone get a bamboo up the arse of those at HAL. Where the hell is SP2?

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## Stephen Cohen

Spectre said:


> Tone down the rhetoric. There is lot more at play here than the Rafales, A government has only so much political capital and for heaven's sake vultures aren't even out yet - once the contract is finalized then you will the see the drama which would set back Indian defence procurement for decades.
> 
> We are just coming out of the shadow of St. Anthony and I would hate for the defence procurement to paralyzed again due to innuendos of kickbacks - they key tactic here is to
> 
> a. Push the smaller deals through first with minimum of noise - Gunships, Artillery, Small Arms, Logisitic Aircrafts etc
> 
> b. Establish the framework for Indignation. @PARIKRAMA wrote an eye opening piece on new Defence Acquisition Framework. Sure it ain't sexy like Rafales but this what will lay the foundation of a strong republic in days to come.
> 
> c. Push big ticket priority items through in the order below
> 
> 1. S-400
> 2. Subs
> 3. Rafales
> 4. PAKFA
> 
> My suggestion to GoI is to buy Rafales in tranches - 18->36->54->90->126 with each tranche coming with iterative improvements, same base price but increasing total price inclusive of add-ons. 18 Rafales will keep the French busy for two years and by that time we will have clarity on domestic production.



You are absolutely right

A Bad deal will F**K up the entire procurement chain

It will damage us in the measure of what Bofors did BUT Multipled By TEN

Everything will come to a grinding halt where people will be hesitant to put their signatures
on files ; we are just coming out of a major logjam which we received from Antony

While This Government has managed to survive the " Tolerance / intolerance " drama
it wont survive a Mega deal going wrong

And Ambani being one of the parties involved ; the fire will engulf Modi

That is why Modi was right in scrapping the MMRCA

It was a cluster f*** in the making

Now the real point is what are we getting as offsets and TOT

And whether they are worth the risk

*The MoD bureaucracy thinks that since we are spending a lot ; we can demand and get anything *

That thinking may be right but it also makes the whole deal UBER complicated

It is a case of many wheels within wheels

1 Help with NLCA
2 Aircraft carrier technology
3 SSBN / SSN technology
4 Nuclear power reactors
5 Maitri SAM 

And God knows what else is MoD dreaming off

While the POOR IAF only wants the RAFALE 

Either the entire Rafale deal will be mega success or a collossal failure
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS : PAKFA will go through Before Rafale



Abingdonboy said:


> So because of some idiots in the rabid media being willing to take payments in return for printing blatent lies India should cease all military deals? The pilots still flying MiG-21s and 27s will be be more than understanding that their lives are intentionally being put at risk because the poltical enviroment is not "conducive" to the solving of these issues. Why not just stand down the military now? With that kind of thinking it hardly makes sense to selectively fund such a toothless entity. You have themedia working both sides, on one hand they attack all imports on the other hand they attack all domestic projects, using your prescription military deals should immediately cease.
> 
> What deal in India isn't surrounded in this kind of muck because vested interests play these dirty games? What's your solution? Lay down and let them win?
> 
> Was this government not elected to be decisive? Running away is not leadership.
> 
> Once the deal is signed the voices disappear, it has happened again and again.
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA I think I'll retire from here for a while, this nonsense has gone too far now and it's exactly what those vested interests were seeking. They have attacked the Rafale deal from every angle-cost, technical prowess, ToT, offsets, comprising dmoestic efforts etc and every time they have been rubbished but now they have created the sentiment @Spectre has exhibited- defeat. Not on any reasonable grounds but because it's just too much effort now to stick ton one's guns or to do what is best for the military, the situation isn't "conducive" to a deal so let's just let sleeping dogs lay. It's rather sickening really.
> 
> 
> Keep up your great work my friend.
> 
> 
> @anant_s @Levina @ni8mare @MilSpec @Taygibay @Ankit Kumar @Stephen Cohen



Mate ; for once I disagree with you

The consequences of a Bad Mega deal are INFINTELY worse than a small deal
of say 54 Rafales

You have no idea how Bad politics is in India

Once a mega deal goes wrong ; the Government will be unable to contain the fall out

It would be curtains for the Modi Sarkar

The amount is Huge with all offsets and TOT ; it would be 40 Billion PLUS

We need to exercise utmost caution

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## PARIKRAMA

After having an extended discussion with my French counterpart via my official mailbox, there is a unique suggestion given by her.. I am sure this makes sense but i dont know whether GOI/MOD will agree to such a structure or not.

The structure she proposed is as given below

*Present Structure*

India -------- buys from ---------> France government acting as a mediator -----------> Dassault Aviation

Essentially in this structure, DA being a private entity , the French Government will not be in a position to guarantee beyond a specific point especially if we are talking from the perspective of liabilities and negating a risk of order being withheld under any crisis situation.

There is a severance clause based on which if and when such a situation occurs when Government interferes and blocks the safe execution and delivery of this contract, a case of exit may be initiated beyond a pre agreed timeline.

As for the control over Dassault A is concerned for delivering as per the contract, the leverage it seems will be limited to at best a gentle nudge and some talks.

*Proposed structure*

India -------- buys from ---------> DGA -----------> Dassault Aviation
................................................... I
................................................... I
....................... Supported by France Government

Now this structure is much more dynamic. DA is essentially a sub contractor in the case of DGA which actually manages France's overall weapon programs with the industry. This basically changes the whole equation. Since DGA manages these weapon program across the whole industry, it has far more powerful control and can force a private entity like Dassault Aviation who also supplies to DGA its product Rafale, to be liable and honor all contractual commitments without creating any case of disruption and adhering to timelines as agreed in the contract.

Again as far as political decision making and risk associated with non supply or blockage is concerned, there will be a severance package clause associated.

But for the liability part, its much easier to make DGA the custodian and contact point who has control and leverage over the procurement of Rafales. This structure actually ensures that DA is forced to deliver as per the set contract as its larger contract till date with French Government is essentially controlled via DGA.

This structure also takes out the issue of a Sovereign Guarantee but incorporates a much better control from Indian side and far better liability adherence and risk mitigation.

Now how this is beneficial

The prices are set by DGA (as they have procured for the local Rafale program) and thus it will be the cheapest with lowest chance of any add on additional cost which was not covered when deal negotiations started in our present structure. Even in the case of customizations, there will be a better pricing as certain customizations may be co-shared like Engine Development.
Financing this deal gets SOE/Banks/FIs support backed by SG for default risk
The covenants of technology requirement, quality, availability, services, spares etc are to meet DGA requirement for French AF Benchmarks.
DGA is responsible for ensuring this contract seems in proper execution and all points as agreed in IGA and Contracts.
In case of contract being terminated due to a political decision of non supply, the severance clause kicks in and a major sum will have to be shelled out by Government of France after a fixed duration (for compliance slack period)
All support contracts for post sales also gets benefited as its essentially leveraging on French AF and Navy experience which helps fine tune finer points for maximum efficiency at economical opex terms

To me, it made a good sense looking at this proposed structure. Its basically saying DGA procures Rafales for FrAF and Fr Navy and GOI, making GOI an entity of extreme importance and a end user which is dependent on DGA.

@MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Abingdonboy @randomradio @Spectre @Stephen Cohen @Didact

From a discussion point of view, whats your thoughts?
I am not sure if GOI will think like this or not but essentially how do you find this structure?.
But then also we can always discuss points and solution to every roadblocks...

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## BON PLAN

15-03-2016 
More powerful engines for the Rafale ? 
Posted in Air Force , Industry Laurent Lagneau The 15-03-2016 Learn more 







For a long time in the negotiations to acquire 60 Rafale (negotiations still continue), UAE United Arab requested a more powerful engine of the combat aircraft developed by Dassault Aviation. To meet this wish, Snecma, Safran group subsidiary, has launched the M-88-X (and M-88-9) to carry the thrust provided by the M-88 engine of 75 kN to 90 kN. Then finally, the project went no further, the Emirates have abandoned their requirement on this point in the process. 

So far, according to La Tribune, the idea of a more powerful engine for the Rafale made its way. The CEO of Safran, Philippe Petitcolin, took the view that the time had come to "ask the question whether it is not appropriate to launch a study that would inflate a bit this motor [M -88, note]. Technically we can do. "
He added: "We are in discussion with the relevant authorities to see if this is possible. And if so, under what conditions and at what level of performance, it would be desirable "to wear it.

Based on assumptions likely to be retained, it would be matter of developing a M-88 engine "8-9 tons of thrust" [80 90 kN, note]. And it could lead to changes at the Rafale air inlets.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

*Singapore Airshow 2016
*

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> After having an extended discussion with my French counterpart via my official mailbox, there is a unique suggestion given by her.. I am sure this makes sense but i dont know whether GOI/MOD will agree to such a structure or not.
> 
> The structure she proposed is as given below
> 
> *Present Structure*
> 
> India -------- buys from ---------> France government acting as a mediator -----------> Dassault Aviation
> 
> Essentially in this structure, DA being a private entity , the French Government will not be in a position to guarantee beyond a specific point especially if we are talking from the perspective of liabilities and negating a risk of order being withheld under any crisis situation.
> 
> There is a severance clause based on which if and when such a situation occurs when Government interferes and blocks the safe execution and delivery of this contract, a case of exit may be initiated beyond a pre agreed timeline.
> 
> As for the control over Dassault A is concerned for delivering as per the contract, the leverage it seems will be limited to at best a gentle nudge and some talks.
> 
> *Proposed structure*
> 
> India -------- buys from ---------> DGA -----------> Dassault Aviation
> ................................................... I
> ................................................... I
> ....................... Supported by France Government
> 
> Now this structure is much more dynamic. DA is essentially a sub contractor in the case of DGA which actually manages France's overall weapon programs with the industry. This basically changes the whole equation. Since DGA manages these weapon program across the whole industry, it has far more powerful control and can force a private entity like Dassault Aviation who also supplies to DGA its product Rafale, to be liable and honor all contractual commitments without creating any case of disruption and adhering to timelines as agreed in the contract.
> 
> Again as far as political decision making and risk associated with non supply or blockage is concerned, there will be a severance package clause associated.
> 
> But for the liability part, its much easier to make DGA the custodian and contact point who has control and leverage over the procurement of Rafales. This structure actually ensures that DA is forced to deliver as per the set contract as its larger contract till date with French Government is essentially controlled via DGA.
> 
> This structure also takes out the issue of a Sovereign Guarantee but incorporates a much better control from Indian side and far better liability adherence and risk mitigation.
> 
> Now how this is beneficial
> 
> The prices are set by DGA (as they have procured for the local Rafale program) and thus it will be the cheapest with lowest chance of any add on additional cost which was not covered when deal negotiations started in our present structure. Even in the case of customizations, there will be a better pricing as certain customizations may be co-shared like Engine Development.
> Financing this deal gets SOE/Banks/FIs support backed by SG for default risk
> The covenants of technology requirement, quality, availability, services, spares etc are to meet DGA requirement for French AF Benchmarks.
> DGA is responsible for ensuring this contract seems in proper execution and all points as agreed in IGA and Contracts.
> In case of contract being terminated due to a political decision of non supply, the severance clause kicks in and a major sum will have to be shelled out by Government of France after a fixed duration (for compliance slack period)
> All support contracts for post sales also gets benefited as its essentially leveraging on French AF and Navy experience which helps fine tune finer points for maximum efficiency at economical opex terms
> 
> To me, it made a good sense looking at this proposed structure. Its basically saying DGA procures Rafales for FrAF and Fr Navy and GOI, making GOI an entity of extreme importance and a end user which is dependent on DGA.
> 
> @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Abingdonboy @randomradio @Spectre @Stephen Cohen @Didact
> 
> From a discussion point of view, whats your thoughts?
> I am not sure if GOI will think like this or not but essentially how do you find this structure?.
> But then also we can always discuss points and solution to every roadblocks...



The DGA is involved in the contract process. That's all I know. I don't know the extent of their participation, but we have been constantly talking to the DGA since many months now.

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## graphican

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> *Singapore Airshow 2016
> *



Now this is what you call a performance demo. It was at-least 3 times better than JF-17 has performed so far.


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## Taygibay

DGA is a single entity that shares responsibility for selecting, planning, sometimes co-designing
most often development and always buying of all of the French armed forces weaponry.

Thus the above by randomradio is clear : it must be part of the GtoG deal.
In Parik's explanation too, its presence can as said take place en lieu of a
warrantee as it ensures equivalent service to the customer as France gets.

From that post #2749 of his, I'll point out this :


PARIKRAMA said:


> Essentially in this structure, DA being a private entity , the French Government will not be in a position to guarantee beyond a specific point especially if we are talking from the perspective of liabilities and negating a risk of order being withheld under any crisis situation.



... which is what I had said in post #2702 :


Taygibay said:


> Because not all Rafale GIE corps are govt owned, that simple!
> Of course, we could cook up an FMS type thinghie fer ya but it could take years ...


... before the latest narcissistic t_otal_error attack on this thread.

Yes, it is an equivalent warrantee as that sought and only possible
with a strategic partner to boot. It will not however be used for MII.



PARIKRAMA said:


> But then also we can always discuss points and solution to every roadblocks...


... assuming real roadblocks we could ( as HAL/DA liability issue in MMRCA )
but since most are imaginary, no we won't as you know, my friend!
Well, at least I won't _... save for untruths. _You lot do as you pretty please of course!

One more cerebral/myocardial infarction that ended up only being gas, Tay.

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## randomradio

IIRC, DGA will buy the jets from Rafale and transfer it to the Indian govt.

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## Taygibay

^^^ From Dassault, yes but correct!

See it like this, in a normal mil transaction, an OEM sells either with approval or without blocking from govt
whereas here, Fr govt buys the jets and MinDef sells them to India. Still for the 36 GtoG deal only though!

The Make in India ones won't fit under that structure so that hopefully by the end
delivery through our mil of the first 36, GoI will be reassured enough on Dassault's
_doubtful integrity? 
_
I'm out, have fun gang, Tay.

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> ^^^ From Dassault, yes but correct!
> 
> See it like this, in a normal mil transaction, an OEM sells either with approval or without blocking from govt
> whereas here, Fr govt buys the jets and MinDef sells them to India. Still for the 36 GtoG deal only though!
> 
> The Make in India ones won't fit under that structure so that hopefully by the end
> delivery through our mil of the first 36, GoI will be reassured enough on Dassault's
> _doubtful integrity?
> _
> I'm out, have fun gang, Tay.



The Make in India will come entirely under the Indian MoD's DPP 2016.

Dassault will have to follow Indian laws in MII, so French procedures and laws will only come into the picture when some unique tech has to be transferred.

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## SUDIP

Another Bombshell from shukla!!!!! I really hate this jerk American sales agent. @PARIKRAMA 

Broadsword: India may not buy Rafale: French official

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## PARIKRAMA

SUDIP said:


> Another Bombshell from shukla!!!!! I really hate this jerk American sales agent. @PARIKRAMA
> 
> Broadsword: India may not buy Rafale: French official



You knw very well.. If I say something also I will be called a "fanboy"

But then also I will say I would go by trappier's confidence over shukla's confidence..

This line is straight picked from PDF.. He just changed the words 

“_If you don’t want the Rafale, go ahead and build the F-16 here. You can build it in India and supply it to Pakistan also.” _

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## BON PLAN

SUDIP said:


> Another Bombshell from shukla!!!!! I really hate this jerk American sales agent. @PARIKRAMA


No such news in the french newspaper today. But it doesn't make the Broadsword one's false....

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## PARIKRAMA

BON PLAN said:


> No such news in the french newspaper today. But it doesn't make the Broadsword one's false....



cancelling Rafale is one thing but the systematic portrayal of French negotiators and the whole negotiation process in such a negative light is always an issue.. Indian negotiators are also not fools but seasoned bureaucrats.. They wont do any nonsense in negotiations..

some of his words may be true, no one says it cant be.. but most of his words in this article is false.. its a factual distortion. comparing Scorpene and Agosta just to play on sentiments is laughable.. A similar case is that original plan is 286 rafales and a new tranche will be ordered beyond 180, but author says there wont be more orders. An IGA as SG, will IGA be approved by Finance Ministry and Parliament? Its again a distortion.. In that case a parliamentary committee has to authorize PM to sign the IGA on their behalf for the IGA to have a SG status from Indian side and a similar structure from France's side..


Article

_Paris is beginning to acknowledge the possibility that India might not buy the Rafale fighter because of sharp differences over the price, and New Delhi’s insistence on enforceable guarantees regarding the fighter’s delivery, performance and availability.

A senior French official with a close view of the on-going negotiations between New Delhi and Paris for 36 Rafale fighters told Business Standard: “If some people in the MoD do not want to allow the Rafale deal to go through, so be it. We are currently building it for Egypt and Qatar, and we could have another customer in Malaysia.”

Underlining the irritation at repeated US offers to set up an assembly line in India to build the American F-16 Super Viper, the French official taunted: “If you don’t want the Rafale, go ahead and build the F-16 here. You can build it in India and supply it to Pakistan also.”

He was referring to Washington’s announcement last month of the sale to Pakistan of eight advanced Block 50/52 F-16 fighters for $699 million. Simultaneously, a senior Lockheed Martin official had publicly offered to “move our [F-16] production line from the US to India.”

Reminded that France too was supplying submarines to both India and Pakistan (DCNS is building six Scorpenes submarines with Mazagon Dock, after earlier selling Pakistan three advanced Agosta-90B submarines with air independent propulsion), he retorted, “That is different. Pakistan is getting a different submarine from what we are providing to India.”

The official dismissed the notion that an Indian order was critical for Dassault to break even in the Rafale project, in which tens of billion Euros have been spent on developing the fighter and establishing a production line. The official claimed, “The Rafale project is commercially viable based on the numbers that the French military requires, even if there is not a single export order.”

In fact, defence budget cuts have forced the French military to slash Rafale orders from over 300 originally planned to just 180 ordered so far. That is a small order, given that the Eurofighter Typhoon has over 700 aircraft on order; while more than 4,500 F-16s have been built over the years.

On New Delhi’s demands for sovereign guarantees from the French government, or a bank guarantee from Dassault, to cover the possibility of delivery or performance shortfalls in the Rafale, the official declared that the two countries would soon sign an inter-governmental agreement (IGA), which would function as a sovereign guarantee.

“The government of France is standing behind the sale. Surely India is not asking for a bank guarantee when it has the word of the French government?” asked the official.

When it was pointed out that the IGA would only outline a supply agreement in broad terms, without detailed binding clauses and penalties, the official responded that the IGA was a strategic agreement between Paris and New Delhi, and that “a phrase here or a sentence there would make no difference.”

“In 1917, when the United States abandoned its isolationism and sent a division of troops to France to fight in World War I, it was not because there was some document with a clause that required them to fight. It was because of a common strategic aim. New Delhi and Paris must have a common strategic aim on the Rafale.”

French officials argue that, if Dassault is required to provide a bank guarantee against possible shortfalls in delivery and performance, India should cover that cost, which is normally 3-4 per cent of the guarantee amount.

Meanwhile, the Cost Negotiation Committee on the Rafale has made little headway in bridging the gap between the French demand and Indian counter-offer, which are believed to be around Euro 12 billion and Euro 9 billion respectively. Issues of liability are further complicating the likelihood of a deal soon.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi, while visiting Paris last April, had requested for 36 Rafales, after a breakdown in negotiations for a much larger order for 126 Rafales. The Indian Air Force had chosen the Rafale on January 31, 2012, after an exhaustive evaluation of six fighter aircraft._
Broadsword: India may not buy Rafale: French official

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## ZedZeeshan

PARIKRAMA said:


> You knw very well.. If I say something also I will be called a "fanboy"
> 
> But then also I will say I would go by trappier's confidence over shukla's confidence..
> 
> This line is straight picked from PDF.. He just changed the words
> 
> “_If you don’t want the Rafale, go ahead and build the F-16 here. You can build it in India and supply it to Pakistan also.” _


Although the offer made by the US to India for the sale of F16 is very lucrative but i think F16 will be the last plane on earth India would buy. there are number of reasons for that. why would India buy a plane which is being used by its adversary for more then 3 decays.. PAF knows everything about this planne, its limitations and its reach. It is very understandable that the Fighter offered to India is way better then the 1 PAF has but it PAF war planners can assume its capabilities due to long experience with the machine. Just Imagine if it goes in a war with Pak and initially it gets shot down it will bring moral of IAF pilots down to ground because they will be thinking that its done because PAF knows this plane..

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## PARIKRAMA

ZedZeeshan said:


> Although the offer made by the US to India for the sale of F16 is very lucrative but i think F16 will be the last plane on earth India would buy. there are number of reasons for that. why would India buy a plane which is being used by its adversary for more then 3 decays.. PAF knows everything about this planne, its limitations and its reach. It is very understandable that the Fighter offered to India is way better then the 1 PAF has but it PAF war planners can assume its capabilities due to long experience with the machine. Just Imagine if it goes in a war with Pak and initially it gets shot down it will bring moral of IAF pilots down to ground because they will be thinking that its done because PAF knows this plane..



My good sir, even you and i understand that fact and yet you have read how in our Indian media , F16 articles were published .. Sadly, everything logical is thrown out of the window.. and defense reporting has become really pathetic..

If you sir, have time pls search for a chap named "Bharat Karnad". Once you read his articles, i recommend a good strong cup of coffee for your terrible headaches...

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## Taygibay

Unnamed senior French official as a source,
which are believed to be around Euro 12 billion and Euro 9 billion respectively erroneous numbers,
Issues of liability are further complicating the likelihood of a deal soon. concludes by citing another
piece that was itself secretly sourced.

Trash in, thrash out; Bon Plan was too polite. Tay.

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## Spectre

PARIKRAMA said:


> cancelling Rafale is one thing but the systematic portrayal of French negotiators and the whole negotiation process in such a negative light is always an issue.. Indian negotiators are also not fools but seasoned bureaucrats.. They wont do any nonsense in negotiations..
> 
> some of his words may be true, no one says it cant be.. but most of his words in this article is false.. its a factual distortion. comparing Scorpene and Agosta just to play on sentiments is laughable.. A similar case is that original plan is 286 rafales and a new tranche will be ordered beyond 180, but author says there wont be more orders. An IGA as SG, will IGA be approved by Finance Ministry and Parliament? Its again a distortion.. In that case a parliamentary committee has to authorize PM to sign the IGA on their behalf for the IGA to have a SG status from Indian side and a similar structure from France's side..
> 
> 
> Article
> 
> _Paris is beginning to acknowledge the possibility that India might not buy the Rafale fighter because of sharp differences over the price, and New Delhi’s insistence on enforceable guarantees regarding the fighter’s delivery, performance and availability.
> 
> A senior French official with a close view of the on-going negotiations between New Delhi and Paris for 36 Rafale fighters told Business Standard: “If some people in the MoD do not want to allow the Rafale deal to go through, so be it. We are currently building it for Egypt and Qatar, and we could have another customer in Malaysia.”
> 
> Underlining the irritation at repeated US offers to set up an assembly line in India to build the American F-16 Super Viper, the French official taunted: “If you don’t want the Rafale, go ahead and build the F-16 here. You can build it in India and supply it to Pakistan also.”
> 
> He was referring to Washington’s announcement last month of the sale to Pakistan of eight advanced Block 50/52 F-16 fighters for $699 million. Simultaneously, a senior Lockheed Martin official had publicly offered to “move our [F-16] production line from the US to India.”
> 
> Reminded that France too was supplying submarines to both India and Pakistan (DCNS is building six Scorpenes submarines with Mazagon Dock, after earlier selling Pakistan three advanced Agosta-90B submarines with air independent propulsion), he retorted, “That is different. Pakistan is getting a different submarine from what we are providing to India.”
> 
> The official dismissed the notion that an Indian order was critical for Dassault to break even in the Rafale project, in which tens of billion Euros have been spent on developing the fighter and establishing a production line. The official claimed, “The Rafale project is commercially viable based on the numbers that the French military requires, even if there is not a single export order.”
> 
> In fact, defence budget cuts have forced the French military to slash Rafale orders from over 300 originally planned to just 180 ordered so far. That is a small order, given that the Eurofighter Typhoon has over 700 aircraft on order; while more than 4,500 F-16s have been built over the years.
> 
> On New Delhi’s demands for sovereign guarantees from the French government, or a bank guarantee from Dassault, to cover the possibility of delivery or performance shortfalls in the Rafale, the official declared that the two countries would soon sign an inter-governmental agreement (IGA), which would function as a sovereign guarantee.
> 
> “The government of France is standing behind the sale. Surely India is not asking for a bank guarantee when it has the word of the French government?” asked the official.
> 
> When it was pointed out that the IGA would only outline a supply agreement in broad terms, without detailed binding clauses and penalties, the official responded that the IGA was a strategic agreement between Paris and New Delhi, and that “a phrase here or a sentence there would make no difference.”
> 
> “In 1917, when the United States abandoned its isolationism and sent a division of troops to France to fight in World War I, it was not because there was some document with a clause that required them to fight. It was because of a common strategic aim. New Delhi and Paris must have a common strategic aim on the Rafale.”
> 
> French officials argue that, if Dassault is required to provide a bank guarantee against possible shortfalls in delivery and performance, India should cover that cost, which is normally 3-4 per cent of the guarantee amount.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Cost Negotiation Committee on the Rafale has made little headway in bridging the gap between the French demand and Indian counter-offer, which are believed to be around Euro 12 billion and Euro 9 billion respectively. Issues of liability are further complicating the likelihood of a deal soon.
> 
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi, while visiting Paris last April, had requested for 36 Rafales, after a breakdown in negotiations for a much larger order for 126 Rafales. The Indian Air Force had chosen the Rafale on January 31, 2012, after an exhaustive evaluation of six fighter aircraft._
> Broadsword: India may not buy Rafale: French official



It would be indeed interesting to know what kind of advances French are asking for. Now I am in no way suggesting that in absence of BG or SG, advance be withheld but may be there is a scope for compromise here.

As for India bearing the cost of guarantee - ridiculous if true. I would tell the French to take hike if I were in the negotiation team and French made such a suggestion.

PG are part and parcel of acquisition process and the seller usually factors in the cost in bid amount. I don't know why such basic things are causing such distress, again with a caveat that I am assuming that disagreements over incorporating liability is indeed true.

Curiously enough while we are seeing a smattering of advertorials and opinion pieces, actual information on the status is blanked out from the MoD, PMO and MEA. *I am quite sure the sabotage attempts/pressure tactics are not from GoI but from either the third parties *(Russians) or French themselves to back GoI in the corner on contentious issues.

Meanwhile be ready for some great news during the second budget session

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## PARIKRAMA

Spectre said:


> It would be indeed interesting to know what kind of advances French are asking for. Now I am in no way suggesting that in absence of BG or SG, advance be withheld but may be there is a scope for compromise here.
> 
> As for India bearing the cost of guarantee - ridiculous if true. I would tell the French to take hike if I were in the negotiation team and French made such a suggestion.
> 
> PG are part and parcel of acquisition process and the seller usually factors in the cost in bid amount. I don't know why such basic things are causing such distress, again with a caveat that I am assuming that disagreements over incorporating liability is indeed true.
> 
> Curiously enough while we are seeing a smattering of advertorials and opinion pieces, actual information on the status is blanked out from the MoD, PMO and MEA. *I am quite sure the sabotage attempts/pressure tactics are not from GoI but from either the third parties *(Russians) or French themselves to back GoI in the corner on contentious issues.
> 
> Meanwhile be ready for some great news during the second budget session



You want to read something more that hit my inbox today morning. Read this and you will understand why Anti rafale news in last few weeks and whose behind all that ..

*Lockheed To Make "Formal Offer" Next Month About F-16 Sale to India*
01:40 PM, March 16, 2016







F-16 fighter jet fleet (Image: Lockheed Martin on Flickr)

Lockheed Martin is expected to make a formal offer to New Delhi about manufacturing the F-16 fighter aircraft in India next month.

*Lockheed Martin officials will be travelling to India with a formal offer next month, Susan Ouzts, vice president of Lockheed’s F-16 program told reporters during the annual media day in Washington Tuesday.*

“Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi had expressed “substantial” interest in the plane during a recent meeting with Lockheed,” Susan said.

“Lockheed was working with the US government, which is in talks with India about possibly building F-16s in India,” said Orlando Carvalho, Lockheed’s Aeronautics division.

"We are ready to manufacture F-16 in India and support the Make in India initiative," Phil Shaw, chief executive of Lockheed Martin India said during the Singapore Airshow 2016.

*Industry observers said Lockheed Martin's "wish to manufacture F-16 is based on the strong demand from the Indian armed forces and would want to lower the cost of the planes for exports by using the low-cost capability in India”.*

"Certainly, Lockheed Martin would want to exploit the engineering skill and low cost capabilities in India and make F-16 very competitive in the fighter jet markets," PTI news agency quoted an unnamed source as saying in Februrary.

“If the two governments reach an agreement this year or 2017, putting aside all differences on the mega project and the US' move to supply eight F-16 to Pakistan, Lockheed Martin could roll out the first made in India jet in 2019-2020,” the source said.

Lockheed Martin has offered India advanced version of the F-16 fighter jets than those that will be delivered to Pakistan.

Lockheed To Make "Formal Offer" Next Month About F-16 Sale to India

++
Now tell me

PM NaMo interested
Strong Demand from IAF
low cost exports
rolling out from 2019-2020
Clearly, if IAF is interested in F16s, that would be the colossal mistake of all time.. yet article says IAF interested and production within 30 months max...

Is it not an desperate move to undercut Rafale MII..

I mean they can give an offer surely, its upto us whether we say yes or not. But if India is also interested especially IAF.. Then what happens to Tejas program, or even LSA (@randomradio)

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Taygibay @AUSTERLITZ @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Spectre 
Its literally a circus now.. all dancing.. Saab, LM, Boeing.. all dancing to musical chairs with a sole aim to upseat France/Dassault Rafale

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## Spectre

PARIKRAMA said:


> You want to read something more that hit my inbox today morning. Read this and you will understand why Anti rafale news in last few weeks and whose behind all that ..
> 
> *Lockheed To Make "Formal Offer" Next Month About F-16 Sale to India*
> 01:40 PM, March 16, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 fighter jet fleet (Image: Lockheed Martin on Flickr)
> 
> Lockheed Martin is expected to make a formal offer to New Delhi about manufacturing the F-16 fighter aircraft in India next month.
> 
> *Lockheed Martin officials will be travelling to India with a formal offer next month, Susan Ouzts, vice president of Lockheed’s F-16 program told reporters during the annual media day in Washington Tuesday.*
> 
> “Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi had expressed “substantial” interest in the plane during a recent meeting with Lockheed,” Susan said.
> 
> “Lockheed was working with the US government, which is in talks with India about possibly building F-16s in India,” said Orlando Carvalho, Lockheed’s Aeronautics division.
> 
> "We are ready to manufacture F-16 in India and support the Make in India initiative," Phil Shaw, chief executive of Lockheed Martin India said during the Singapore Airshow 2016.
> 
> *Industry observers said Lockheed Martin's "wish to manufacture F-16 is based on the strong demand from the Indian armed forces and would want to lower the cost of the planes for exports by using the low-cost capability in India”.*
> 
> "Certainly, Lockheed Martin would want to exploit the engineering skill and low cost capabilities in India and make F-16 very competitive in the fighter jet markets," PTI news agency quoted an unnamed source as saying in Februrary.
> 
> “If the two governments reach an agreement this year or 2017, putting aside all differences on the mega project and the US' move to supply eight F-16 to Pakistan, Lockheed Martin could roll out the first made in India jet in 2019-2020,” the source said.
> 
> Lockheed Martin has offered India advanced version of the F-16 fighter jets than those that will be delivered to Pakistan.
> 
> Lockheed To Make "Formal Offer" Next Month About F-16 Sale to India
> 
> ++
> Now tell me
> 
> PM NaMo interested
> Strong Demand from IAF
> low cost exports
> rolling out from 2019-2020
> Clearly, if IAF is interested in F16s, that would be the colossal mistake of all time.. yet article says IAF interested and production within 30 months max...
> 
> Is it not an desperate move to undercut Rafale MII..
> 
> I mean they can give an offer surely, its upto us whether we say yes or not. But if India is also interested especially IAF.. Then what happens to Tejas program, or even LSA (@randomradio)
> 
> @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Taygibay @AUSTERLITZ @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Spectre
> Its literally a circus now.. all dancing.. Saab, LM, Boeing.. all dancing to musical chairs with a sole aim to upseat France/Dassault Rafale



f-16 are not a threat exactly to Rafales. I am concerned that HAL if ever can achieve the numbers for LCA before it becomes completely obsolete. May be F-16s display lack of confidence on LCA as a mainstay light fighter. Ofcourse no one will admit and the project will produce some numbers like Arjun did but for all practical intents and purposes GoI is giving it up. *This only holds true if and only if F-16s are selected and a domestic line opened*

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> You want to read something more that hit my inbox today morning. Read this and you will understand why Anti rafale news in last few weeks and whose behind all that ..
> 
> *Lockheed To Make "Formal Offer" Next Month About F-16 Sale to India*
> 01:40 PM, March 16, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 fighter jet fleet (Image: Lockheed Martin on Flickr)
> 
> Lockheed Martin is expected to make a formal offer to New Delhi about manufacturing the F-16 fighter aircraft in India next month.
> 
> *Lockheed Martin officials will be travelling to India with a formal offer next month, Susan Ouzts, vice president of Lockheed’s F-16 program told reporters during the annual media day in Washington Tuesday.*
> 
> “Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi had expressed “substantial” interest in the plane during a recent meeting with Lockheed,” Susan said.
> 
> “Lockheed was working with the US government, which is in talks with India about possibly building F-16s in India,” said Orlando Carvalho, Lockheed’s Aeronautics division.
> 
> "We are ready to manufacture F-16 in India and support the Make in India initiative," Phil Shaw, chief executive of Lockheed Martin India said during the Singapore Airshow 2016.
> 
> *Industry observers said Lockheed Martin's "wish to manufacture F-16 is based on the strong demand from the Indian armed forces and would want to lower the cost of the planes for exports by using the low-cost capability in India”.*
> 
> "Certainly, Lockheed Martin would want to exploit the engineering skill and low cost capabilities in India and make F-16 very competitive in the fighter jet markets," PTI news agency quoted an unnamed source as saying in Februrary.
> 
> “If the two governments reach an agreement this year or 2017, putting aside all differences on the mega project and the US' move to supply eight F-16 to Pakistan, Lockheed Martin could roll out the first made in India jet in 2019-2020,” the source said.
> 
> Lockheed Martin has offered India advanced version of the F-16 fighter jets than those that will be delivered to Pakistan.
> 
> Lockheed To Make "Formal Offer" Next Month About F-16 Sale to India
> 
> ++
> Now tell me
> 
> PM NaMo interested
> Strong Demand from IAF
> low cost exports
> rolling out from 2019-2020
> Clearly, if IAF is interested in F16s, that would be the colossal mistake of all time.. yet article says IAF interested and production within 30 months max...
> 
> Is it not an desperate move to undercut Rafale MII..
> 
> I mean they can give an offer surely, its upto us whether we say yes or not. But if India is also interested especially IAF.. Then what happens to Tejas program, or even LSA (@randomradio)
> 
> @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Taygibay @AUSTERLITZ @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Spectre
> Its literally a circus now.. all dancing.. Saab, LM, Boeing.. all dancing to musical chairs with a sole aim to upseat France/Dassault Rafale



Everybody is preying on public opinion. Anyway, out of 400 to 500 jets that the IAF needs, only 126 Rafale and 126 LCA are confirmed. That leaves 150-250 aircraft in the game.

If they manage to bring down Rafale, then the numbers increase by 126.

The only threat to Rafale is the SH.

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## Taj_91

Reading the above post by Randomradio, if India indeed has extra slot of 150-200 aircrafts, is there any possibility of F-16s. It's not necessary for IAF to field all its inventory against PAF. Americans have made it clear that to F-16 tech gets to the Chinese hands. May be IAF can use F-16s against PLAAF? Is there a possibility?


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## Immortan.Joe

@PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @tayagibay

Could you people suggest some good technical books regarding Engine design. I am a mechanical engineering student and while basics (very very basic) of turbine engine design is there in course, detailed study of Jet Engines is not in syllabus.

If book is available in low price edition, it would be even better as I could not buy an imported version costing over 10,000 Rupee.

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## PARIKRAMA

Spectre said:


> f-16 are not a threat exactly to Rafales. I am concerned that HAL if ever can achieve the numbers for LCA before it becomes completely obsolete. May be F-16s display lack of confidence on LCA as a mainstay light fighter. Ofcourse no one will admit and the project will produce some numbers like Arjun did but for all practical intents and purposes GoI is giving it up. *This only holds true if and only if F-16s are selected and a domestic line opened*





randomradio said:


> Everybody is preying on public opinion. Anyway, out of 400 to 500 jets that the IAF needs, only 126 Rafale and 126 LCA are confirmed. That leaves 150-250 aircraft in the game.
> 
> If they manage to bring down Rafale, then the numbers increase by 126.
> 
> The only threat to Rafale is the SH.



I had said the same thing again and again.. The execution is the key here.. 

No one will say on record they dont trust HAL execution skills for Tejas program.. The confidence or rather lack of it gets confirmed the moment we induct another light fighter.. and a parallel production line with the words we need more jets in a quicker time frame in light category.

The biggest plus point for F16s is the fact that US MIC even with a line in India can produce easily 40-50 jets a year and build over 400+ jets over next 10 years.. If they start production by 2019 or heck full production from Jan 2020 by 2027 end we can have easily 40 x 8 =320 F16s to 50 x 8 = 400 F16s.. For them its a normal production rate..

Thats a humongous advantage any given day.. Monetary wise such huge numbers coupled with lower cost of production may see an advantage in and around 15-20% once we hit economies of scale.

But here is the downward risk - Our light category becomes US dependent fully.. and it kills everything from Tejas future to LSA to anything else in Light category..

Its something similar even Boeing is capable of for numbers per year.. Surely Rafale too can be produced if we invest for such numbers..

I get when you all say 16 is not a direct threat, but here comes the twist.. Looking at budget and perhaps signing amount allocation. Even for MII, in all practical sense we wont be able to sign multiple MII for jet production this year.. At best one this year, another next year and so on.. This is where i see a small but tangible risk.. 

Actually SH will now surely follow with an offer and so will be Saab seeing LM offer.. Its going to be raining offers...


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## MilSpec

Immortan.Joe said:


> @PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @tayagibay
> 
> Could you people suggest some good technical books regarding Engine design. I am a mechanical engineering student and while basics (very very basic) of turbine engine design is there in course, detailed study of Jet Engines is not in syllabus.
> 
> If book is available in low price edition, it would be even better as I could not buy an imported version costing over 10,000 Rupee.


Jet Engines: Fundamentals of Theory, Design and Operation: Klaus Hunecke: 9781853108341: Amazon.com: Books

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/00..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=02XNVKD64SW6GTHGS1WG

http://www.amazon.com/Aircraft-Powe..._UL160_SR125,160_&refRID=1K3NK5N6T6F5C6H6HC21

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## Blue Marlin

PARIKRAMA said:


> I had said the same thing again and again.. The execution is the key here..
> 
> No one will say on record they dont trust HAL execution skills for Tejas program.. The confidence or rather lack of it gets confirmed the moment we induct another light fighter.. and a parallel production line with the words we need more jets in a quicker time frame in light category.
> 
> The biggest plus point for F16s is the fact that US MIC even with a line in India can produce easily 40-50 jets a year and build over 400+ jets over next 10 years.. If they start production by 2019 or heck full production from Jan 2020 by 2027 end we can have easily 40 x 8 =320 F16s to 50 x 8 = 400 F16s.. For them its a normal production rate..
> 
> Thats a humongous advantage any given day.. Monetary wise such huge numbers coupled with lower cost of production may see an advantage in and around 15-20% once we hit economies of scale.
> 
> But here is the downward risk - Our light category becomes US dependent fully.. and it kills everything from Tejas future to LSA to anything else in Light category..
> 
> Its something similar even Boeing is capable of for numbers per year.. Surely Rafale too can be produced if we invest for such numbers..
> 
> I get when you all say 16 is not a direct threat, but here comes the twist.. Looking at budget and perhaps signing amount allocation. Even for MII, in all practical sense we wont be able to sign multiple MII for jet production this year.. At best one this year, another next year and so on.. This is where i see a small but tangible risk..
> 
> Actually SH will now surely follow with an offer and so will be Saab seeing LM offer.. Its going to be raining offers...


no chance. the f16's are a political tool. you think the usa is gonna even allow it. sure it will secure some jobs but not alot, as the jets will be a made in india. now if you do buy them and it went through then uncle sam has about 30 years of influence over you as they control the parts and the maintenance not forgetting the critical components which need to be sent to the usa. it will be built via license just like the mki's.

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## randomradio

Taj_91 said:


> Reading the above post by Randomradio, if India indeed has extra slot of 150-200 aircrafts, is there any possibility of F-16s. It's not necessary for IAF to field all its inventory against PAF. Americans have made it clear that to F-16 tech gets to the Chinese hands. May be IAF can use F-16s against PLAAF? Is there a possibility?



IAF cannot buy only Rafales, too expensive. That's why the remaining requirement for medium weight aircraft will be serviced by another cheaper aircraft. The F-16 and Gripen are the cheapest western jets. So either one can win.



Blue Marlin said:


> no chance. the f16's are a political tool. you think the usa is gonna even allow it. sure it will secure some jobs but not alot, as the jets will be a made in india. now if you do buy them and it went through then uncle sam has about 30 years of influence over you as they control the parts and the maintenance not forgetting the critical components which need to be sent to the usa. it will be built via license just like the mki's.



The Americans plan to move their entire production line to India, both Boeing and LM will do that. In case the F-16s are made in India, even foreign countries will have to buy it from India if they want more.

That's why that little joke about selling PAF the F-16s.

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## PARIKRAMA

Blue Marlin said:


> no chance. the f16's are a political tool. you think the usa is gonna even allow it. sure it will secure some jobs but not alot, as the jets will be a made in india. now if you do buy them and it went through then uncle sam has about 30 years of influence over you as they control the parts and the maintenance not forgetting the critical components which need to be sent to the usa. it will be built via license just like the mki's.


I agree with you.. 100%..

Sadly, what i dont know is the confidence level on our homegrown Tejas program.. Which may tilt GOI to accept some other bird if the execution level is poor for production and meeting timelines..

In guise of needing fighters quickly we may see a new line .. not saying it will be 16s.. it can be Gripen also or LSA.. Sadly, it would be failure of ourselves that we could not capitalize on what is a 100% home market monopoly for light category with our inability to meet expectations in a time bound manner...

IMHO i would still give Tejas a long rope and i hope MOD does not give 16s/18s or even Gripen a chance at all.. But wishes of mine is not above our national interest...


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## Stephen Cohen

If F 16 s are coming ; we must get the LATEST

And they must have AESA ; AIM 9 X ; AIM 120 D ; and the best EW suite

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> But here is the downward risk - Our light category becomes US dependent fully.. and it kills everything from Tejas future to LSA to anything else in Light category..



If the second line does happen, I doubt it will be much more than 126 at best.

Every year, China will surprise the NSA, and every year the IAF will get higher priority, and every year the IAF's requirements will only increase. Eventually, the IAF will be tasked with getting the best jets possible, be it the Rafale or LSA. This second MMRCA will obviously become an afterthought.

Earlier, Boeing and Saab wanted IAF to buy 200 or more of their jets. Now, Boeing seems to have come down to "please buy 150 at least" while MoD has said the contract is only for 90. None of these competitors have the premium advantage of being the Rafale.

If you ask me only Gripen is capable of matching up to the industrial production requirements. They have designed their production cycle around small numbers right now. Just 60 for Sweden, 36 for Brazil and 90 for IAF. And I think only Gripen has any chance for export.



Stephen Cohen said:


> If F 16 s are coming ; we must get the LATEST
> 
> And they must have AESA ; AIM 9 X ; AIM 120 D ; and the best EW suite
> 
> If F 16 s are coming ; we must get the LATEST version
> 
> And they must have AESA ; AIM 9 X ; AIM 120 D ; and the best EW suite available



Oh, God no. The Aim-9X and Aim-120D are obsolete.

Better options are the ASRAAM/Python V and I-Derby ER combo. And stick the latest AESA based EW suite from the LCA program into it. The LCA's EW suite is far better than the obsolete monkey model EW they have on their F-16s. If possible, it would be even better if we replace the American AESA with the Israeli 2052. The Israelis found their 2052 to be better than what's going into the F-35. And of course, replace all their comm/IFF/datalink equipment with Indian/Israeli equipment.

At least the radar, comm and EW suite will be sensor fused if this happens. Basically, it will be a new aircraft.

This F-16 version may still not be as good as Rafale, but it will be way better than whatever they are peddling to us right now.

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## Blue Marlin

randomradio said:


> IAF cannot buy only Rafales, too expensive. That's why the remaining requirement for medium weight aircraft will be serviced by another cheaper aircraft. The F-16 and Gripen are the cheapest western jets. So either one can win.
> 
> 
> 
> The Americans plan to move their entire production line to India, both Boeing and LM will do that. In case the F-16s are made in India, even foreign countries will have to buy it from India if they want more.
> 
> That's why that little joke about selling PAF the F-16s.


i think lm is trolling india here

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## Taygibay

Taj_91 said:


> May be IAF can use F-16s against PLAAF?



Why would you rest the air defence of your country on a plane operated by your arch-enemy
whom you regularly accuse of sending all Western tech to China for copying purposes?

If there is one plane the PLAAF is ready to face, it's certainly the F-16 and the US knows that.
And it will kill the LCA. So as usual, when you can't spot the fool in a story, chances are it's you.
​@Immortan.Joe

I'll check and put it on your profile page but MilSpec's answer points the right way. Gather advice,
use search engines with different keywords too, make up a list and check on-line sellers.
Something like this will work very well for basics : jet engines pdf in Googueule.

http://er.jsc.nasa.gov/seh/ANASAGUIDETOENGINES[1].pdf
http://www.ltas-cm3.ulg.ac.be/AERO0023-1/ConceptionMecaTurbomachine.pdf
http://navybmr.com/study material/14008a/14008A_ch1.pdf

And there will be commercial docs too and more as you change pdf for other formats.
You'll be surprised that many documents can be accessed for free, BTW. Then you try
again with jet engine equations / mass flows in jet engines / temperatures, pressures, etc.

And next time you are called to a teacher's office, ask to check his bookcase!





Blue Marlin said:


> i think lm is trolling india here



By now, who isn't?
Seriously, have you been to other mil fora? I mean, it's nothing but open sarcasm!

Good day all, Tay.​

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## randomradio

Blue Marlin said:


> i think lm is trolling india here



One of the requirements of Make in India are near 100% ToT and manufacturing for exports and not just for the Indian armed forces.

According to the FDI rules in defence, foreign companies can invest up to 49%. The remaining 51% needs to be owned by an Indian company. But in certain cases where extensive ToT is involved, the foreign company can ask for full 100% ownership of its Indian subsidiary. Boeing is planning to do that. Boeing wants full 100% ownership and they will have the entire jet manufactured in India. They will eventually transfer all the necessary technology to Indian companies for upkeep of the fleet. LM could do the same with their F-16s. But we need to wait and see that for ourselves.

Companies like Saab and Dassault are not big enough to make such large investments, so they will need companies that are as large as LM or Boeing as partners. Saab chose Tata and Dassault chose Reliance, both are heavyweight companies.

That's why I don't like the American companies investing that way in India. IAF will get their jets, the country will cut back on foreign exchange, but the Indian industry won't get immediate returns. Reliance will end up as the biggest Indian player because of Rafale and that's always bad news.

If this second MMRCA does happen, it has to be Saab. Mig-35 is acceptable, but I don't think they will be chosen either.

Basically, I think it's a fight between Saab and LSA. And I'm pretty sure Saab has no clue about LSA.

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## Stephen Cohen

randomradio said:


> Basically, I think it's a fight between Saab and LSA. And I'm pretty sure Saab has no clue about LSA.



Hi ; what is LSA

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## randomradio

Stephen Cohen said:


> Hi ; what is LSA



Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 138

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## Blue Marlin

randomradio said:


> One of the requirements of Make in India are near 100% ToT and manufacturing for exports and not just for the Indian armed forces.
> 
> According to the FDI rules in defence, foreign companies can invest up to 49%. The remaining 51% needs to be owned by an Indian company. But in certain cases where extensive ToT is involved, the foreign company can ask for full 100% ownership of its Indian subsidiary. Boeing is planning to do that. Boeing wants full 100% ownership and they will have the entire jet manufactured in India. They will eventually transfer all the necessary technology to Indian companies for upkeep of the fleet. LM could do the same with their F-16s. But we need to wait and see that for ourselves.
> 
> Companies like Saab and Dassault are not big enough to make such large investments, so they will need companies that are as large as LM or Boeing as partners. Saab chose Tata and Dassault chose Reliance, both are heavyweight companies.
> 
> That's why I don't like the American companies investing that way in India. IAF will get their jets, the country will cut back on foreign exchange, but the Indian industry won't get immediate returns. Reliance will end up as the biggest Indian player because of Rafale and that's always bad news.
> 
> If this second MMRCA does happen, it has to be Saab. Mig-35 is acceptable, but I don't think they will be chosen either.
> 
> Basically, I think it's a fight between Saab and LSA. And I'm pretty sure Saab has no clue about LSA.


you wish................ 100% tot........... show me where it says that.

49%off est is why the rafale deal has not yet been concluded. its stupid and dassault has express their view by jacking up the price as for lm and the f16's...... well good luck. the f18's are a better choice it just is. the usa will be hitting two bird with one stone they have influence over india and pakistan. 

you should have ditched the rafale and gone for the mig-35 long ago.


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## ConcealCarry

By the time they come, if ever, the the things you mentioned would already be obsolete, hahaha




Stephen Cohen said:


> If F 16 s are coming ; we must get the LATEST
> 
> And they must have AESA ; AIM 9 X ; AIM 120 D ; and the best EW suite


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## PARIKRAMA

An interesting conversation by a poster called "STOLEN" in PSK Blog
+++
STOLEN said...

Sir, there is a lot of noise coming in now about F-16s to be built in India for the IAF , this is nonsense surely?

Is there a reason for so much anti-Rafale media around lately? Is this going to affect the Rafale deal? Ajai Shukla reported today the French are getting pissed off at our reluctance to sign, could they simply walk away and focus on other markets?

I think the day to sign for the Rafale has come and gone, we have lost it.

March 18, 2016 at 2:00 AM





Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To STOLEN: Of course it is sheer nonsense. Do you think the IAF will be forced to accept an aircraft that had failed the competitive evaluations? Can you imagine what kind of repercussions this will have? Do you reckon the Indian PM was bullshitting the whole world when he had announced the decision to acquire the first 36 Rafales off-the-shelf? Do you reckon the French are so arrogant as to just walk away from the gigantic Indian market? FYI the Japanese were promised a US-2i amphibian procurement at around the same time as the Rafale was selected. So in your reckoning are the Japanese too totally pissed off with the Indians? Lastly, has any French official ever expressed his/her 'pissed off' attitude to any desi journalist to date? If not, then why are you jumping to conclusions without any substance to back them up? Haven't you learnt enough as yet from all the 'desi' bullshitting that had gone on over the last 2 months of last year regarding the S-400 LR-SAM? Why do you have eyes & yet still continue to fail to see the writing on the wall? Can't you arrive at some commonsensical conclusions of your own? Why this constant over-reliance on never-ending spoon-feeding by these headless chicken masquerading as 'desi' journalists?

March 18, 2016 at 3:05 AM




STOLEN said...

Sir, I'm not worried about the IAF changing its mind- they have stuck to their guns for 5+ years now. I am concerned that these fickle polticans will be lured by the offers form LM or Boeing, Ajai Shukla reported that LM is to make an offical offer to the MoD this week. The Americans are shady businessmen- they'll undercut the French at the first chance to get India on their hook.

March 18, 2016 at 3:53 AM




Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To STOLEN: So in your way of reasoning the Indian politicians can be led by their noses by the wily/shady Caucasians? Do you know that Saab had made such an offer over 1 year ago & what came of it? LM's official offer isn't even remotely connected to the F-16, but to the C-130J & S-70B2 Seahawks. Told you, NEVER fall for all the mumbo-jumbo emanating from these 'desi' bandalbaazes. 
March 18, 2016 at 4:44 AM




STOLEN said...

Sir, please expand on what LM are offering vis a vis the C-130J and S-70B, this sounds most tempting for India.

March 18, 2016 at 5:01 AM





Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To STOLEN: It is offering to set up regional MRO centres for such platforms. Once the foundational LSA is inked, such MRO centres will become a reality. BTW, I read the report of the 'desi bandalbaaz' & by the looks of it, he must have asked some really bizarre, insulting questions of a provocative nature, perhaps to elicit some kind of sarcastic response. And the answers he got were apt & well-deserved. I too would have answered such silly & nonsensical questions with equal disdain. You may recall that sometime in 2011 he had attempted something similar when asking LM marketing executives to comment about the FGFA. Such 'desi bandalbaazes' are so full of shit when it comes to such matters!!!

March 18, 2016 at 5:46 AM

Blogger: TRISHUL - Post a Comment

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## randomradio

Blue Marlin said:


> you wish................ 100% tot........... show me where it says that.
> 
> 49%off est is why the rafale deal has not yet been concluded. its stupid and dassault has express their view by jacking up the price as for lm and the f16's...... well good luck. the f18's are a better choice it just is. the usa will be hitting two bird with one stone they have influence over india and pakistan.



Trappier himself said near 100% of the Rafale will be made in India by the time all 90 jets are made.

The SH is more expensive than the Rafale. It has very little chance. If it turns out they choose the SH, then IAF will instead ask for more Rafales instead.

It's kind of ironic. When MRCA first started in 2004, it was aimed at a light aircraft like M-2000. In 2007, the program was changed to MMRCA and was meant for heavy fighters like the Rafale and SH. During that time, single engine aircraft never stood a chance. Now, this second competition is for the single engine aircraft, the tables have turned, so the SH has no chance.

The SH/F-16 won't give much influence for the US in India, but it will make the strategic partnership much stronger. One of the criteria for the Make in India program is to make the jet entirely independent of its supplier country, and to bind the company to Indian laws. So after the jet is manufactured, the upkeep and the future of the jet will be determined by India.

The actual ToT to Indian companies is 50%. The remaining can be owned by the foreign company, but it needs to be manufactured in India as time passes.



> you should have ditched the rafale and gone for the mig-35 long ago.



Terrible idea, considering we can buy both.

The Mig-35 has a chance due to the drastic fall in the ruble. It's hovering at 68 to a dollar right now versus 30 to a dollar 2 years ago. It can actually compete in price with its single engine counterparts.

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## BON PLAN

Taj_91 said:


> Reading the above post by Randomradio, if India indeed has extra slot of 150-200 aircrafts, is there any possibility of F-16s. It's not necessary for IAF to field all its inventory against PAF. Americans have made it clear that to F-16 tech gets to the Chinese hands. May be IAF can use F-16s against PLAAF? Is there a possibility?


I don't think so.
Chineese are pleased to well known F16, but what India can do with technological informations about plane china don't use? Against Pak, why not, but not against China.


----------



## PARIKRAMA

*Rafale: a contract with the UAE *
By Michel Cabirol | 03/18/2016, 6:56

*Abu Dhabi would shift a possible order for the Rafale to 2017 or 2018. It could be divided into three groups (three times 20 combat aircraft).*

According to several sources, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) should not sign contracts this year Rafale (60 aircraft).However, the UAE are still very interested in the combat aircraft from Dassault Aviation. Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi, Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed Al Nahyan has also promised again to Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian on his last visit to the Emirates, ordering to France.

It will be better in 2017, but probably after the presidential elections, even in 2018. The order could be divided into three tranches (3 times 20) with a first modernization of equipment purchased, says one in La Tribune. _"It must be very patient "_ , says one in La Tribune.

*The war in Yemen is expensive*
Why wait until 2017 or 2018? The war in Yemen, which is here to stay, very expensive in the UAE. In addition, the UAE suffer from a price too low barrel. He lost more than half of its value since June 2014. On the New York Mercantile Exchange (Nymex), a barrel of "light sweet crude" (WTI) for April delivery was at 39.87 dollars Thursday.

Finally, the UAE, which are already very well equipped, use in fighting Yemen most of their weapons systems purchased in recent years, including the Mirage 2000-9 appreciated by Emirati pilots. They hold a small sixties

Rafale : un contrat avec les Emirats Arabes Unis s'éloigne en 2016


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## Ankit Kumar

MoD , put up a notice. Anything but single engines. 

On F16s, I mean really ? Do they mean we should get a bird in our airforce which our arc enemy will be retiring by then ?



randomradio said:


> Trappier himself said near 100% of the Rafale will be made in India by the time all 90 jets are made.
> 
> The SH is more expensive than the Rafale. It has very little chance. If it turns out they choose the SH, then IAF will instead ask for more Rafales instead.
> 
> It's kind of ironic. When MRCA first started in 2004, it was aimed at a light aircraft like M-2000. In 2007, the program was changed to MMRCA and was meant for heavy fighters like the Rafale and SH. During that time, single engine aircraft never stood a chance. Now, this second competition is for the single engine aircraft, the tables have turned, so the SH has no chance.
> 
> The SH/F-16 won't give much influence for the US in India, but it will make the strategic partnership much stronger. One of the criteria for the Make in India program is to make the jet entirely independent of its supplier country, and to bind the company to Indian laws. So after the jet is manufactured, the upkeep and the future of the jet will be determined by India.
> 
> The actual ToT to Indian companies is 50%. The remaining can be owned by the foreign company, but it needs to be manufactured in India as time passes.
> 
> 
> 
> Terrible idea, considering we can buy both.
> 
> The Mig-35 has a chance due to the drastic fall in the ruble. It's hovering at 68 to a dollar right now versus 30 to a dollar 2 years ago. It can actually compete in price with its single engine counterparts.



Compete ? 
If as said by some members on my question about the possible cost of Mig35s after a drop , that's near 15 mil$, I take it to the upper limit at 20mil$ , then also ..... atleast 3 Mig35s against F16Blk61 and 4 Mig35s against 1 Gripen NG. 

THATS HUGE numerical advantage, considering that quality wise too Mig35s do quite well. 

I will choose Fulcrums any day over other fighters other than Rafale.

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## Immanuel

randomradio said:


> Trappier himself said near 100% of the Rafale will be made in India by the time all 90 jets are made.
> 
> The SH is more expensive than the Rafale. It has very little chance. If it turns out they choose the SH, then IAF will instead ask for more Rafales instead.
> 
> It's kind of ironic. When MRCA first started in 2004, it was aimed at a light aircraft like M-2000. In 2007, the program was changed to MMRCA and was meant for heavy fighters like the Rafale and SH. During that time, single engine aircraft never stood a chance. Now, this second competition is for the single engine aircraft, the tables have turned, so the SH has no chance.
> 
> The SH/F-16 won't give much influence for the US in India, but it will make the strategic partnership much stronger. One of the criteria for the Make in India program is to make the jet entirely independent of its supplier country, and to bind the company to Indian laws. So after the jet is manufactured, the upkeep and the future of the jet will be determined by India.
> 
> The actual ToT to Indian companies is 50%. The remaining can be owned by the foreign company, but it needs to be manufactured in India as time passes.
> 
> 
> 
> Terrible idea, considering we can buy both.
> 
> The Mig-35 has a chance due to the drastic fall in the ruble. It's hovering at 68 to a dollar right now versus 30 to a dollar 2 years ago. It can actually compete in price with its single engine counterparts.



SH ony any given day is 20% cheaper in acqusition costs and around 30% cheaper in operational costs than the Rafale.

Rafale deal is hanging by the thread, if the price and liability stuff isn't solved, the deal will collapse. More MKI will be ordered and Mig-35 and SH have the highest chance for the subsequent contract. F-16 and Gripen for India are out of the question, IAF won't accept either.

Mig-35 is a prudent choice since for the same money of $9 billion for Rafales, we can easily have at the very least 150+ Mig-35s and MKI them with Israeli AESA, EW suite etc. However, will IAF accept another Russian bird witht he PAKFA coming in the future? This is a big question, hence SH has a higher chance if they play their cards right, unless LM does a 360 and offers the F-35 with local assembly.


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## randomradio

Immanuel said:


> SH ony any given day is 20% cheaper in acqusition costs and around 30% cheaper in operational costs than the Rafale.



The SH costs more than the Rafale in operations. It only looked like the SH was cheaper because of the cost difference in Euro and Dollars during MMRCA time. Now both are almost on par. And eventually, those costs won't completely matter in India. The Rafale costs considerably less to maintain and operate.

The SH version India wants is not developed yet. Just building a 9G capable airframe will take a lot of time and money. The older SH B2 they sold to Australia costs $250M per aircraft and that's a decade old cost. If Boeing develops the SH into a Block 3, it will easily exceed the Rafale in terms of costs and still be less capable. SH needs more maintenance per flight hour and also requires overhaul. Rafale doesn't need overhaul, that alone saves about $50-75M in LCC.



Ankit Kumar said:


> MoD , put up a notice. Anything but single engines.
> 
> On F16s, I mean really ? Do they mean we should get a bird in our airforce which our arc enemy will be retiring by then ?
> 
> 
> 
> Compete ?
> If as said by some members on my question about the possible cost of Mig35s after a drop , that's near 15 mil$, I take it to the upper limit at 20mil$ , then also ..... atleast 3 Mig35s against F16Blk61 and 4 Mig35s against 1 Gripen NG.
> 
> THATS HUGE numerical advantage, considering that quality wise too Mig35s do quite well.
> 
> I will choose Fulcrums any day over other fighters other than Rafale.



The Mig-35 is indeed cheaper, probably the cheapest right now. But it is Russian and that's the problem. The purpose of this second MMRCA is to get a very cheap jet to replace 300+ Mig-21s and Mig-27s. They are just splitting the numbers between LCA and this second MMRCA.

I'm in favour of cancelling the second MMRCA altogether and focus our resources on the LSA program.

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> Oh, God no. The Aim-9X and Aim-120D are obsolete.


A little bit hard no? 

The seeker of AIM9X is used in ASRAAM. but range shorter. A real short range AAM (ASRAAM has better range)
Range of AMRAAM 120 D is not so rididulous. but pk ????

a post found in Defense issues .....

*AIM 120 D versus Meteor*

December 15, 2012 posted by Picard 578

*Design requirements*

AIM-120 was started as a project to replace painfully ineffective AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-54 Phoenix (which are only effective against heavy bombers and (in case of later-iteration AIM-54) non-maneuvering fighters). It was to be relatively small BVR missile, so as to be able to be carried by the F-16.

Meteor is a result of joint European project to develop BVR missile to replace BAe Dynamics Skyflash. It was to be capable of shooting down a variety of targets, including low-RCS UAVs and cruise missiles, as well as maneuvering fighters of Flanker family. Another requirement was compatibility with Typhoon’s semi-recessed fuselage hardpoints, originally designed for AIM-120.

*Effectiveness*

AIM-120D is a further evolution of US AIM-120 BVR AAM series. It uses classic fuel+oxygen combustion mix, and does not rely on air flow from outside. In fact, it uses the same engine as AIM-120C, with improvements being mainly in electronics. However, it has been reported that engine malfunctions in cold environments – exactly where it is most likely to be used.

Meteor is a ramjet BVR AAM. As such, it does not carry onboard oxygen, but rather uses oxygen from surrounding air, allowing it to hold more fuel. Result is better acceleration, top speed, and range for a given missile size.

While Meteor may not have as large maximum range as AIM-120D (only figure I have for Meteor is “more than 100 km”, with 100 km being “optimal range”, versus public figure of 160 km for AIM-120D), it is faster, and thus more deadly at any range it can reach. This is important, as BVR missiles are never fired at maximum range due to meager Pk against fighter aircraft. However, range varies on altitude, with best range for both missile types being achieved in high-altitude rare-atmosphere conditions, where maneuverability is almost nonexistent; at sea level, range is not much more than visual. Velocity loss after burn-out also varies with altitude, with 25% of current velocity being lost every 150 s at 24 km, 25 s at 12 km and 5 s at sea level.

Range can be reduced even further if enemy uses jammers. Thus, large NEZ (no-escape zone) is far more important. (To explain terminology here, NEZ is NOT a zone where a hit is guaranteed; rather, it is a zone where enemy aircraft cannot outrun missile, waiting for it to run out of fuel, but rather has to outturn it). Higher speed allows it to reduce time to target, and thus opponent’s reaction time, as well as to retain energy for longer after engine has burned out.

In fact, Meteor’s NEZ was to be three times as large as that of AIM-120B. Active version of missile is equipped with radar Aster, designed to shoot down cruise missiles, which thus can be used against targets with low RCS.

However, both missiles are BVR, making their actual value questionable. In fact, jamming and IFF issues mean that BVR missiles are far more likely to be used as a WVR weapon than in their intended purpose. While AIM-120 did achieve 6 BVR kills out of 13 firings, all but one were against non-maneuvering targets with no ECM and no awareness of missile. By comparing difference in Pk between maneuvering and non-maneuvering targets for AIM-9, it can be concluded that AIM-120 will achieve Pk of at most 11%; however, it is larger and heavier than AIM-9, as well as more vulnerable to countermeasures, so even that is an optimistic estimate.

EDIT: Meteor is estimated to have a range of 250-300 km with ballistic flight path, which suggests an improvement over initially cited goal. That being said, best option is to wait for performance figures after it enters service.


----------



## Immanuel

randomradio said:


> The SH costs more than the Rafale in operations. It only looked like the SH was cheaper because of the cost difference in Euro and Dollars during MMRCA time. Now both are almost on par. And eventually, those costs won't completely matter in India. The Rafale costs considerably less to maintain and operate.
> 
> The SH version India wants is not developed yet. Just building a 9G capable airframe will take a lot of time and money. The older SH B2 they sold to Australia costs $250M per aircraft and that's a decade old cost. If Boeing develops the SH into a Block 3, it will easily exceed the Rafale in terms of costs and still be less capable. SH needs more maintenance per flight hour and also requires overhaul. Rafale doesn't need overhaul, that alone saves about $50-75M in LCC.
> 
> The Mig-35 is indeed cheaper, probably the cheapest right now. But it is Russian and that's the problem. The purpose of this second MMRCA is to get a very cheap jet to replace 300+ Mig-21s and Mig-27s. They are just splitting the numbers between LCA and this second MMRCA.
> 
> I'm in favour of cancelling the second MMRCA altogether and focus our resources on the LSA program.



Australia – F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler Aircraft | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

The Aussies got the SH for around 4 billion including service, spares and weapons, thats around 165 million per bird while the Rafale's figures quoted by the French are 12 billion for 36, that is 333 million per bird. Double the SH's cost.

The SH in the USN costs around 10K per maintenance hr, over 6K cheaper than the Rafale.

SH Advanced is already under testing in various phases. CFTs, internal IRST, Large Panel Displays, AESA and Stealth Pods are already in validation. Regardless, the block 3 will cost around 70 million per unit while the flyaway price of the Rafale being quoted for India is around 140 million. The SH also brings in atleast 2-3 billion in savings because of engine commnality with the LCA MK-2. Moreso, the SH's flying envelope has an eletronic limit of 7G but the airframe if good for 9G, this is a non issue.

The Super Hornet on any given day is just as capable as the Rafale and comes off the shelf ready to deploy the best of Unkil sam's inventory everything from CBU-105 SFWs, AAGRMs, SLAM-ERs to SDBs. The Growler being the only aircraft to have a confimred Aim-120 kill on the Raptor, in A2A the SH can more than handle itself against the Rafale especially with weapons like Aim-120D.

The Apg-79 out performs the RBE2 any given day and its also being upgraded. Spectra is overrated, good enough for Soviet era radars but not good enough for modern arrays. Sure, the Rafale has a slight range and payload advantage but looses out in terms of cost and brings weapon versatility that Rafale doesn't have without expensive and time consuming weapons integration excercises.

As for the over-haul, ridiculous claims, SH is good for 6000 hrs before SLEP and maintenance hrs per flight hour is around 5-10 hours which is comparable to the Rafale and EF.

USN has been using the SH hard for the last 10 years and the aircraft is considered one of the most reliable, the number of flight hrs acculmated everyday is way beyond the scale of the Rafale.

Navy Getting 'Smarter' About Tanking Mission As Super Hornets Approach 6,000 Hours - USNI News

Rafale also have a limit of 6000hr before MLU or over-haul is needed, you would be quite silly to imagine IAF won't have to overhaul the French poodle or that the French won't screw us at that given day with the cost of MLU. Let's not even go into the cost of MLU for the Rafale, we'll end up paying 70% of the cost to of a new aircraft to upgrade these down the line.

Point is Rafale is a good aircraft, a 4.5 gen aircraft and its just one of many. It has its pros and cons, for the money its not the best value. For the price of 1 Rafale, we can get 2 SHs or 4 Mig-35 or 3 MKI.


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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> Trappier himself said near 100% of the Rafale will be made in India by the time all 90 jets are made.



No, he did not! Unless you're over 40 years old, I spoke both languages before you were born
and am qualified to translate both ways between the two.
What Éric Trappier said was that Rafale GIE partners would delocalize activity to India for MII.
He did not specify percentages and no jet maker will do so ( 90+% ) for any current high end product.
Check SAAB's deal in Brazil just for fun.




Immanuel said:


> SH ony any given day is 20% cheaper in acqusition costs and around 30% cheaper in operational costs than the Rafale.



And on any given IAF trial day doesn't make the cut; it better be cheaper, right?
Desi fanboy goes to market and buys rotten apple because it costs 20% less!
Desi fanboy gets home and wife says : That pie will taste funny and make us sick!
IAF is the wife here!

Of course, if you believe things like this :


Immanuel said:


> you would be quite silly to imagine IAF won't have to overhaul the French poodle or that the French won't screw us at that given day


... you'd be better off buying Russian crap or infeudate yourself to a new master!
And, I never used derogatory terms for your country but as you just allowed me :
_if the Rafale is a poodle to snicker at then the LCA is a cockroach to crush underfoot!_​Happy now?

It's Rafale or it's stop the deal and begin anew. Contrary to what some tried to impute,
I don't own shares in Dassault nor am I on their payroll. Just do the right thing for India
... if you can stop spinning fairy tales long enough to make up your mind that is!

This is getting quite ridiculous.
Good day to those sane enough to accept it, Tay.​

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> No, he did not! Unless you're over 40 years old, I spoke both languages before you were born
> and am qualified to translate both ways between the two.
> What Éric Trappier said was that Rafale GIE partners would delocalize activity to India for MII.
> He did not specify percentages and no jet maker will do so ( 90+% ) for any current high end product.
> Check SAAB's deal in Brazil just for fun.



Geez, bro, relax. Instead you could have just asked where I got it from.

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 166


> When I look at Trappier interview he seems surpised by the question about the number and he have to answer something but he doesn't want to. So he refer to MMRCA to give an order of magnetude. It seems also that 100% will not be build in India at the begining but it seems achieviable to Trappier this 100% at the end of the 90. And then India can ask for more.





BON PLAN said:


> A little bit hard no?
> 
> The seeker of AIM9X is used in ASRAAM. but range shorter. A real short range AAM (ASRAAM has better range)
> Range of AMRAAM 120 D is not so rididulous. but pk ????



The seekers are good enough, no problem with that. AMRAAM has older seekers, but even that's fine.

But in terms of kinematics, the ASRAAM and I-Derby ER both beat the Aim-9/Aim-120 combo by a healthy margin. Both ASRAAM and I-Derby have more range, better engines etc.

The problem with Aim-120D is the lack of dual pulse motors.



Immanuel said:


> Australia – F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler Aircraft | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency
> 
> The Aussies got the SH for around 4 billion including service, spares and weapons, thats around 165 million per bird while the Rafale's figures quoted by the French are 12 billion for 36, that is 333 million per bird. Double the SH's cost.



That's only for equipment. The final contract size was
Australia's new Super Hornet warplane unveiled


> Australia's first new Super Hornet to be acquired under a $US6 billion ($A7.6 billion) deal has been unveiled in a glitzy ceremony held in a cavernous aircraft hangar at the Boeing factory in St Louis, USA.



And this was far back in 2009. It's much higher now.



> The SH in the USN costs around 10K per maintenance hr, over 6K cheaper than the Rafale.



That was when Euro was 1.45 to a dollar. The USN SH doesn't have half the stuff the Rafale has and still far more expensive. And the Rafale rates that were revealed were not peacetime rates, those were wartime rates.

Use more relevant and recent information.
Boeing remains confident in additional F/A-18 orders


> Operating costs are also less — about $16,000 to $17,000 per flight hour, says Gibbons.



So, yeah, Rafale is cheaper. It should be considerably less than $10,000 in IAF service.



> you would be quite silly to imagine IAF won't have to overhaul the French poodle



The French poodle doesn't need overhaul.



> or that the French won't screw us at that given day with the cost of MLU.



According to IGA, we will be paying as much as the ADLA. So if they screw us, they screw themselves.

I forgot. You are Septimus, right? Only you can name all obsolete weapons, obsolete aircraft and obsolete practices and claim them to be better than the Rafale.

Anyway, this contract has nothing to do with the Rafale, so there's no point comparing the two. Only costs matter now and it is obvious to anybody that the SH is more expensive in LCC terms.

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> Instead you could have just asked where I got it from.



Yes, an answer by Picdel about a cross-post from elsewhere which both mentioned but did not link to.
Classic Indian journalism cough cough technic!

Do provide the interview and if Trappier said as much meaning full production from scratch not assembly
of transferred kits, I'll recognize my error in jumping at you and relax!

But do get this as well, even Picdel is not a source by himself. I would relish a chat with him and
especially on his work as I would likely learn a darn lot but he is not the Pope ( infaillible - infallible ).
I trust he'd question me also if I made unsubstantiated claims and in fact value that attitude.
So in order not to accidentally shoot the messenger, please provide a link?

BTW, you tried that before :


Taygibay said:


> I cannot and will not speak for him but I highly doubt that Pic shares your view
> that Dassault wants to transfer all Falcon activity to India.



About the exact same claim and without proof already a few posts before the one
you quoted above in answer!
It is part of what initially got me not to trust you and now you quote yourself spouting
rubbish to back more rubbish? Oh, well, it worked since I answered. My bad!


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## PARIKRAMA

i think what Trappier may have hinted is more for localisation part which is what i have always said before.. Localisation will happen under MII as the supply chain will get firm up with orders in hand..

What needs to be very clear is localisation and technology absorption are two different things...Localisation in terms of economic value may not be very significant as particular hi cost items at the very best possibility will be assembled with partial localisation of certain component level manufacturing. 

But then perhaps if the line order with tranches reaches closer to say 200, there is a good possibility more tech absorption or partial tech absorption will lead to much higher localisation in hi cost items. That will push the overall localisation in terms of economic value.

What i would be very keen is to see if under MII Safran assembles M88 -X variant in india or not.. GE in its Chikan Plant in Pune assembles the 404 and has repeatedly said 414 will also be build in India (partial assembly with localized components). So I am keen to see a similar type of setup to begin with under MII.. It makes sense for Safran after all even for 90 jets its 180 engines upfront and counting spares and replacements its easily 400+ for MII first Tranche.. By the time everything gets over Safran may be sitting with around 1000 Engines order for India.. Thus it makes sense for them to assemble them her and increase localisation step by step..

ABOUT CPFH @Immanuel, adding to what @randomradio is saying,

its already proven that Rafale CPFH as of 2015 is less than 10K USD and all that from Senat Report.. In fact closer to USD 9.7K. And MKI was last year Aero India video declared around USD 12K whereas M2K was said to be USD 3K

Here are the links for the same

The calculation credit goes to @Vauban and @Picdelamirand-oil who provided the necessary pointers and data from Senat report on the same

In fact the more Rafales are in usage with different AFs and more Flying hour it clocks, i wont be surprised to see the CPFH falling anywhere in the range of USD 7000 - 8000.

With IAF flying hours, that range should be easy to attain looking at M2K CPFH at USD 3K





Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 124



For MKI and M2K CPFH




Indian Air Force News & Discussions | Page 223

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## Taygibay

^^^


PARIKRAMA said:


> i think what Trappier may have hinted is more for localisation part which is what i have always said before.. Localisation will happen under MII as the supply chain will get firm up with orders in hand..
> 
> What needs to be very clear is localisation and technology absorption are two different things...Localisation in terms of economic value may not be very significant as particular hi cost items at the very best possibility will be assembled with partial localisation of certain component level manufacturing.
> 
> But then perhaps if the line order with tranches reaches closer to say 200, there is a good possibility more tech absorption or partial tech absorption will lead to much higher localisation in hi cost items. That will push the overall localisation in terms of economic value.


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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Yes, an answer by Picdel about a cross-post from elsewhere which both mentioned but did not link to.
> Classic Indian journalism cough cough technic!
> 
> Do provide the interview and if Trappier said as much meaning full production from scratch not assembly
> of transferred kits, I'll recognize my error in jumping at you and relax!
> 
> But do get this as well, even Picdel is not a source by himself. I would relish a chat with him and
> especially on his work as I would likely learn a darn lot but he is not the Pope ( infaillible - infallible ).
> I trust he'd question me also if I made unsubstantiated claims and in fact value that attitude.
> So in order not to accidentally shoot the messenger, please provide a link?



I lost the link ever since IDF shut down. Even though the site's back, about 1-1.5 months of data has been lost. It was a different French interview, and it wasn't in India. It was by a French TV channel with Trappier as their guest. I should have edited my post here with the link, but I forgot to do that.

Anyway, here's the post that was cross posted from IDF.
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 165

The rest of the post with the link was lost to the Internet Gods.

If @Picdelamirand-oil has it, it will help, but I'm afraid I can't help you with the link. It was entirely in French, so I can't search for it either.



> BTW, you tried that before :



Yes, in the very same post you replied to, I have provided links for the cost of SH.

Btw, the purpose of this contract and the second MMRCA is to get more Indian production than in the MKI program. There may be certain equipment that may not be manufactured in India, like the landing carriage and ejection seat, but the plan is to manufacture everything that's important on the Rafale in India itself.

A word of advice, next time just ask instead of attacking somebody's age or the language he speaks or comparing somebody to the pope just because you don't agree with something.



PARIKRAMA said:


> What i would be very keen is to see if under MII Safran assembles M88 -X variant in india or not..



Safran had said publicly that they planned to manufacture 100% of the engine in India during MMRCA.

It is possible that they may have the same plans under the MII program also.



> its already proven that Rafale CPFH as of 2015 is less than 10K USD and all that from Senat Report.. In fact closer to USD 9.7K. And MKI was last year Aero India video declared around USD 12K whereas M2K was said to be USD 3K



To add to that, I think the French cost for M-2000 was $8000 for the ALDA. Considering the M-2000s in India rely on localized and imported spares, it is possible that Rafale's CPFH will also significantly reduce. Most likely by half.

Btw, thanks for posting the image. @Picdelamirand-oil had asked for it, but I didn't have it at the time.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> Safran had said publicly that they planned to manufacture 100% of the engine in India during MMRCA.
> 
> It is possible that they may have the same plans under the MII program also.
> 
> To add to that, I think the French cost for M-2000 was $8000 for the ALDA. Considering the M-2000s in India rely on localized and imported spares, it is possible that Rafale's CPFH will also significantly reduce. Most likely by half.
> 
> Btw, thanks for posting the image. @Picdelamirand-oil had asked for it, but I didn't have it at the time.


Ya we were all wanting that data piece for MKI part for some good amount of time.

About CPFH costing for M2K thats the same thing which @Taygibay pointed out.. in that thread itself..






Indian Air Force News & Discussions | Page 223


I think more than localisation, IAF way of calculation may be a bit different as certain heads are classified differently whereas for France all are clubbed.. For IAF there are different heads like repair and maintenance which I think is not taken into account while calculating the CPFH. But even if i consider those heads the actual CPFH at mest would be about 25% more or for MKI its more like USD 12000-14700 kind of range.






Indian Air Force News & Discussions | Page 223

Judging by that logic, i am pretty confident we will see ~ USD 7K + /- 10% CPFH figure for Rafale (approx twice of M2K+ ~5-10%).

Ironically, if i look at today the CPFH for all these jets should be very less across the globe as Crude price has fallen drastically. So in reality, a new info graphic with figures of last 6 months should be very very favorable for certain fighters especially in Single engine category. Who knows with such crude price, Raffy CPFH may show USD 5000-6000 also and SU30 MKI may be around USD 10K..

I wont comment on M2K as if i say its USD 2K looking at a similar analogy, it looks as if its a hybrid car rather than a jet!!

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> A word of advice, next time just ask instead of attacking somebody's age or the language he speaks or comparing somebody to the pope just because you don't agree with something.



Great advice indeed for ... I did not attack you nor did my pope analogy attack Pic!
If that is what you understood, I know where our differences come from.
And I didn't ask and you still referred me to a lost offering to Internet Gods so ...


Just forget both it and me, It will make your life so much easier!


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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> Judging by that logic, i am pretty confident we will see ~ USD 7K + /- 10% CPFH figure.
> 
> Ironically, if i look at today the CPFH for all these jets should be very less across the globe as Crude price has fallen drastically. So in reality, a new info graphic with figures of last 6 months should be very very favorable for certain fighters especially in Single engine category. Who knows with such crude price, Raffy CPFH may show USD 5000-6000 also and SU30 MKI may be around USD 10K..
> 
> I wont comment on M2K as if i say its USD 2K looking at a similar analogy, it looks as if its a hybrid car rather than a jet!!



The Rafale's cost that Picdel posted seems to be only for maintenance and spares, most likely does not include wages, fuel etc.

So, we don't seem to have enough information for a head to head comparison. I suppose whatever price they come up with in France, we are practically guaranteed to pay lesser.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> The Rafale's cost that Picdel posted seems to be only for maintenance and spares, most likely does not include wages, fuel etc.
> 
> So, we don't seem to have enough information for a head to head comparison. I suppose whatever price they come up with in France, we are practically guaranteed to pay lesser.



That is true... Surely i believe anything around 50-66% (1/2 to 2/3rd) of it should be what IAF figure may show.


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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> That is true... Surely i believe anything around 50-66% (1/2 to 2/3rd) of it should be what IAF figure may show.



Hello Sir what Are your sources telling you

Any luck so far
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@PARIKRAMA @randomradio

Even UAE deal is getting postponed

UAE Could Defer Dassault Rafale Order to 2017 or 2018

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## Blue Marlin

randomradio said:


> Trappier himself said near 100% of the Rafale will be made in India by the time all 90 jets are made.
> 
> The SH is more expensive than the Rafale. It has very little chance. If it turns out they choose the SH, then IAF will instead ask for more Rafales instead.
> 
> It's kind of ironic. When MRCA first started in 2004, it was aimed at a light aircraft like M-2000. In 2007, the program was changed to MMRCA and was meant for heavy fighters like the Rafale and SH. During that time, single engine aircraft never stood a chance. Now, this second competition is for the single engine aircraft, the tables have turned, so the SH has no chance.
> 
> The SH/F-16 won't give much influence for the US in India, but it will make the strategic partnership much stronger. One of the criteria for the Make in India program is to make the jet entirely independent of its supplier country, and to bind the company to Indian laws. So after the jet is manufactured, the upkeep and the future of the jet will be determined by India.
> 
> The actual ToT to Indian companies is 50%. The remaining can be owned by the foreign company, but it needs to be manufactured in India as time passes.
> 
> 
> 
> Terrible idea, considering we can buy both.
> 
> The Mig-35 has a chance due to the drastic fall in the ruble. It's hovering at 68 to a dollar right now versus 30 to a dollar 2 years ago. It can actually compete in price with its single engine counterparts.


the f18 is more expensive than the rafale is that unit cost vs unit cost or is that 36 rafales vs 100+f18's ?
ok so you say single engined fighters have a good chance, so what about the gripen? [im forgetting the f16 here]
all of this is now a sh!t show. you were supposed to get the rafale and call it a day. now you have tom, d!ck and harry and his mate paul trying to sell jets there. 
the roi investors must put back to india is 50% not the tech. the tech is seen as an investment.

the mig 35 is perfect. you already have the mig 29 to intragation is no problem its got the latest kit. its dirt cheap, much less than the rafale. the russain spean the language of the indian's. they know how to do business with you as they have been doing for a very long time.the french kinda know but its still rust and still doing business under the pretense of selling carpets. guarantied supply. if your dumb enough to go to war the french will stop deleveries but the russains wont.

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## Blue Marlin

Stephen Cohen said:


> Hello Sir what Are your sources telling you
> 
> Any luck so far
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @randomradio
> 
> Even UAE deal is getting postponed
> 
> UAE Could Defer Dassault Rafale Order to 2017 or 2018


that means you wont be getting jets till that time too.

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## Stephen Cohen

Blue Marlin said:


> that means you wont be getting jets till that time too.



No that means that if we can close the deal in 2016 

We would be ahead in the queue ; First come first served isnt it 
Now Egypt and Qatar are ahead in the queue to get New Rafales

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## Immanuel

BON PLAN said:


> EDIT: Meteor is estimated to have a range of 250-300 km with ballistic flight path, which suggests an improvement over initially cited goal. That being said, best option is to wait for performance figures after it enters service.



Is there some valid source for your hot air claim?


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## randomradio

Blue Marlin said:


> the f18 is more expensive than the rafale is that unit cost vs unit cost or is that 36 rafales vs 100+f18's ?
> ok so you say single engined fighters have a good chance, so what about the gripen? [im forgetting the f16 here]
> all of this is now a sh!t show. you were supposed to get the rafale and call it a day. now you have tom, d!ck and harry and his mate paul trying to sell jets there.
> the roi investors must put back to india is 50% not the tech. the tech is seen as an investment.




There is some kind of confusion here. The F-16, Gripen etc are fighting for a new contract that's separate from the Rafale.

According to Parrikar, we will have signed $12B in offsets over the next few years, so the offsets for new orders will be directed towards building a production ecospace.



> the mig 35 is perfect. you already have the mig 29 to intragation is no problem its got the latest kit. its dirt cheap, much less than the rafale. the russain spean the language of the indian's. they know how to do





> business with you as they have been doing for a very long time.the french kinda know but its still rust and still doing business under the pretense of selling carpets. guarantied supply. if your dumb enough to go to war the french will stop deleveries but the russains wont.



Out of all the western nations, we trust the French the most. We are working out a system in which our imported fleet's upkeep will not be dependent on the countries the companies represent. They will make it as sanction proof as possible.

We have a massive contract with the Russians with FGFA which dwarfs all other programs. There is no need to go for more.


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## Stephen Cohen

The LAST three pages tells us that the MMRCA circus is back 

It was the same thing back then in 2010 --11 

Supporters of rival planes calling each other names

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## Blue Marlin

randomradio said:


> There is some kind of confusion here. The F-16, Gripen etc are fighting for a new contract that's separate from the Rafale.
> 
> According to Parrikar, we will have signed $12B in offsets over the next few years, so the offsets for new orders will be directed towards building a production ecospace.
> 
> 
> 
> Out of all the western nations, we trust the French the most. We are working out a system in which our imported fleet's upkeep will not be dependent on the countries the companies represent. They will make it as sanction proof as possible.
> 
> We have a massive contract with the Russians with FGFA which dwarfs all other programs. There is no need to go for more.


well if this is the case here then should be a seperate thread for this instead of talking about it here. but its not actually a thing under an actual tender, its just the wolves hounding iaf.

the french are good people no doubt about that. i thought the fgfa is for 60 jets only after there were cuts


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## BON PLAN

STRANGE TO SEE GRIPEN SO LOW, SPECIALY VERSUS F16.

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## Blue Marlin

BON PLAN said:


> STRANGE TO SEE GRIPEN SO LOW, SPECIALY VERSUS F16.


who made the graph? was it saab by any coincidence?

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## randomradio

Blue Marlin said:


> well if this is the case here then should be a seperate thread for this instead of talking about it here. but its not actually a thing under an actual tender, its just the wolves hounding iaf.



No, it's not a tender. But yeah, this deserves a new thread. This will be a GTG deal, so you won't find a lot of information like it was for MMRCA. All the other MMRCA competitors are back for a 90 jet contract, so they are working out their best offers. This is separate from the Rafale line.



> i thought the fgfa is for 60 jets only after there were cuts



The 60 jets deal is an option the govt is considering and it's separate from the FGFA deal. It's for the Russian version of PAK FA, but unclear if it's for Stage 1 or Stage 2. We know that there will be a 3 year delay between the Russian Stage 2 and FGFA, so the govt must be considering bridging that gap with the 60 jets. They are most likely watching the progress of the J-20.

The FGFA is for 154 jets.


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## Blue Marlin

randomradio said:


> 1. No, it's not a tender. But yeah, this deserves a new thread. This will be a GTG deal, so you won't find a lot of information like it was for MMRCA. All the other MMRCA competitors are back for a 90 jet contract, so they are working out their best offers. This is separate from the Rafale line.
> 
> 
> 
> 2. The 60 jets deal is an option the govt is considering and it's separate from the FGFA deal. It's for the Russian version of PAK FA, but unclear if it's for Stage 1 or Stage 2. We know that there will be a 3 year delay between the Russian Stage 2 and FGFA, so the govt must be considering bridging that gap with the 60 jets. They are most likely watching the progress of the J-20.
> 
> The FGFA is for 154 jets.


1. so this new gtg is for 90 sets of wings then. why not buy more rafales. is crazy buying multiple airframe types.

2. so it's 60 russian jets plus more to indian specs? right


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## randomradio

Blue Marlin said:


> 1. so this new gtg is for 90 sets of wings then. why not buy more rafales. is crazy buying multiple airframe types.



We can't afford only Rafales. They will increase the number of Rafales eventually, and the navy will also be buying between 50 and 100.

The Rafale + LCA orders have been split into Rafale + LCA + another jet due to budget pressures.



> 2. so it's 60 russian jets plus more to indian specs? right



Yeah.


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## Blue Marlin

randomradio said:


> We can't afford only Rafales. They will increase the number of Rafales eventually, and the navy will also be buying between 50 and 100.
> 
> The Rafale + LCA orders have been split into Rafale + LCA + another jet due to budget pressures.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah.


whichever bud. any idea when it will be signed? or close to be signed. abindonboy said by end of the fiscal year 31'st of march.

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## Immanuel

Random's info is too random, bordering on fantasy. Rafale deal for 36 first has to be cleared for IAF, which on itself is highly doubtful, let's not even bring the Navy into, they have no need for Rafale as they have no carriers, they have enough (45) Mig-29K to share on the INS Vikramditya and INS Vikrant coming up soon. The next carrier INS Vishal won't be ready till atleast 2027, Navy won't be adding a 4.5 gen Rafale during 5th gen timelines when they have more 5th gen options like F-35, Naval PAKFA to go along with the N-LCA MK-2 etc.

Rafale deal in all cases will be cancelled since we are willing to pay no more than 7-8 billion while the French are quoting 11-12 billion. Unless they drop the price significantly, this is going to be hard.

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## BON PLAN

Blue Marlin said:


> if your dumb enough to go to war the french will stop deleveries but the russains wont.



During Kargil we help indians !

And during Falklands we stop deliveries of Exocet and Super Etendard to Argentina. (Fortunately for your fleet, because with just a hand full on these items... your a** was smashed ).

IT DEPEND. If India goes in war against her Majesty the Queen, the choice will be hard. If not no problem.

Why do you think Mirage 2000 was and is a nuclear vector in India ?



Immanuel said:


> Random's info is too random, bordering on fantasy. Rafale deal for 36 first has to be cleared for IAF, which on itself is highly doubtful, let's not even bring the Navy into, they have no need for Rafale as they have no carriers, they have enough (45) Mig-29K to share on the INS Vikramditya and INS Vikrant coming up soon. The next carrier INS Vishal won't be ready till atleast 2027, Navy won't be adding a 4.5 gen Rafale during 5th gen timelines when they have more 5th gen options like F-35, Naval PAKFA to go along with the N-LCA MK-2 etc.
> 
> Rafale deal in all cases will be cancelled since we are willing to pay no more than 7-8 billion while the French are quoting 11-12 billion. Unless they drop the price significantly, this is going to be hard.



Too random info. Bordering on fantaisy .... OKAY, it's your opinion.

I think the same about naval PAKFA. No naval version of such a plane. Wing plan form not suited. And no parachute on a naval plane.

Price. If you really want to pay only 7-8 billion when Dassault, after selling its fighter twice, and 4 years of bargaining need 11-12, it's over.
But because it's not over yet, your reality is not the reality.


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## PARIKRAMA

BON PLAN said:


> STRANGE TO SEE GRIPEN SO LOW, SPECIALY VERSUS F16.





Blue Marlin said:


> who made the graph? was it saab by any coincidence?


You folks are both absolutely correct

Jane's Defense is the source.. It was most probably sponsored by Saab as the article said this

_The operational cost of the Swedish Saab Gripen aircraft is the lowest among a flightline of modern fighters, confirmed a White Paper submitted by the respected international defense publishing group IHS Jane’s, *in response to a study commissioned by Saab.*_


++Yet most folks relied on this number and bashed Rafale and EuroFighter for a long long time.. Till at least now Rafale CPFH is more or less a bit cleared..

@Blue Marlin - My good friend can you have any thing via which we can know CPFH of EF or any governmental record like French Senat ones from which we can derive its CPFH.. Would love to know the real CPFH of EF

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## Blue Marlin

BON PLAN said:


> During Kargil we help indians !
> 
> And during Falklands we stop deliveries of Exocet and Super Etendard to Argentina. (Fortunately for your fleet, because with just a hand full on these items... your a** was smashed ).
> 
> IT DEPEND. If India goes in war against her Majesty the Queen, the choice will be hard. If not no problem.
> 
> Why do you think Mirage 2000 was and is a nuclear vector in India ?


we won the falklands war. who controls the islands?
as for Argentina there pose no threat to us, or ever will.
as for you helping indians........prove it.



PARIKRAMA said:


> You folks are both absolutely correct
> 
> Jane's Defense is the source.. It was most probably sponsored by Saab as the article said this
> 
> _The operational cost of the Swedish Saab Gripen aircraft is the lowest among a flightline of modern fighters, confirmed a White Paper submitted by the respected international defense publishing group IHS Jane’s, *in response to a study commissioned by Saab.*_
> 
> 
> ++Yet most folks relied on this number and bashed Rafale and EuroFighter for a long long time.. Till at least now Rafale CPFH is more or less a bit cleared..
> 
> @Blue Marlin - My good friend can you have any thing via which we can know CPFH of EF or any governmental record like French Senat ones from which we can derive its CPFH.. Would love to know the real CPFH of EF


@PARIKRAMA 
The study conducted by IHS Jane’s Aerospace and Defense Consulting, compared the operational costs of the Gripen, Lockheed Martin F-16, Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, Dassault’s Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and the F-35 aircraft.




The operational cost of the Swedish Saab Gripen aircraft is the lowest among a flightline of modern fighters, confirmed a White Paper submitted by the respected international defense publishing group IHS Jane’s, in response to a study commissioned by Saab.

The paper says that in terms of ‘fuel used, pre-flight preparation and repair, and scheduled airfield-level maintenance together with associated personnel costs’, “The Saab Gripen is the least expensive of the aircraft under study in terms of cost per flight hour (CPFH).”

The study, conducted by Edward Hunt, Senior Consultant, at IHS Jane’s Aerospace and Defense Consulting, compared the operational costs of the Gripen, Lockheed Martin F-16, Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, Dassault’s Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and the F-35 aircraft.

“At an estimated $4,700 per hour (2012 USD), the Gripen compares very favorably with the Block 40 / 50 F-16s which are its closest competitor at an estimated $7,000 per hour,” says the report, adding, “The F-35 and twin-engined designs are all significantly more expensive per flight hour owing to their larger size, heavier fuel usage and increased number of airframe and systems parts to be maintained and repaired. IHS Jane’s believes that aircraft unit cost and size is therefore roughly indicative of comparative CPFH.”

In comparison, the figure for the F/A-18 Super Hornet ranged from USD 11000 to USD 24000, depending on degree of operational capability. The figure for the Rafale was USD 16500 per flying hour and number for the Eurofighter Typhoon, derived from British Parliamentary figures and seeming to cover only fuel usage, was USD 8200. But Jane’s estimate of the actual Cost Per Flying Hour for the Eurofighter, keeping in mind supplies and scheduled maintenance raised the figure up to USD 18000.

The cost of operation of the F-35 appears to be in a whole other league. Jane’s cites Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) estimates for the conventional F-35 A, assuming operational service over 30 years with 200 hours per year for each aircraft, to amount to USD 21000 per hour of flight. The paper also sources US Navy projections of the cost of operation of the F-35 B & C variants until the year 2029, which come to USD 31000 per flight hour.

The report says the figures were based on data sourced from the respective operating militaries and governments, disclosed international fighter competition cost figures (Rafale, F-18 E / F, Gripen), manufacturer-stated figures (F-35, Rafale, F-18 E / F, Gripen) and IHS Jane’s estimates for all aircraft.

There are several caveats to this assessment. “Owing to the differing methods of calculating aircraft operating cost per flight hour and the large number of interlinked factors that affect such a calculation, IHS Jane’s believes that any flight hour cost figure can only be regarded as indicative and that there is no single correct answer to such a calculation,” says the report, but adds, “However, we believe that our results are of considerable merit and provide a useful benchmark when considering the costs associated with operating contemporary high performance combat aircraft.”

The report stresses that ‘without access to comprehensive military data over a significant timeframe’ the results ‘can only be regarded as approximate’ and ‘are an average cost across an entire fleet’. 

The report says it is most confident about the data and its conclusions on the Gripen, F-16 and the F/A-18 ‘with good primary and secondary source data supported by logical results from our deductive modeling.’

The numbers for the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale are less certain, in comparison, but the report submits that ‘the comparative modeling output appears to confirm IHS Jane’s estimates’ for them.

The report is least sure about the operational cost of the F-35 costs ‘owing to the absence of actual in-service data’. “IHS Jane’s does not feel that the modeled fuel cost figure is representative of likely CPFH costs,” it says.

Besides using primary and secondary sources and their own databases, IHS Jane’s also considered data thrown up by a ‘modelled assessment of relative cost based on fuel usage’. In the absence of a single global standard for calculating cost per flight hour IHS Jane’s arrived upon a list of factors which would determine this cost.





The study took into account, what it called, Basic cost calculations to the exclusion of a set of factors it grouped under the term, Comprehensive cost calculations, to arrive at a figure determined only by the characteristics of individual aircraft rather than complexity of operations, weapons or support elements.

The study ‘determined that the Basic CPFH was the more common value stated and that this was therefore regarded as a more accurate and useful indication of the cost of sortie generation for a particular aircraft’.

The other factors, under the Comprehensive cost calculations, were ‘more usually considered as part of the platform’s capital cost rather than the daily service cost of which the Basic CPFH was felt to be a more useful representation’. 



CPFH composition


On the basis of a 2005 US Air Force study of its F-16 fleet, IHS Jane’s thinks the CPFH is composed of approximately:

– 10-15% Consumable Supplies (small parts, wiring, basic electrical components)
– 20-25% Sortie Aviation Fuel
– 60-70% Depot Level Repair and Systems Maintenance





The study also points to less quantifiable and more intangible factors that could impact CPFH.









For the purpose of modeling to create a standard or benchmark, the study arrived at the ‘aircrafts’ fuel usage, hence cost, based on a theoretical one hour sortie at max dry thrust’, not ‘necessarily reflective of actual fuel consumption and hence fuel cost of a one hour sortie’. 

As is evident, the modeled cost pattern is closest to the derived cost pattern in the case of the Gripen, F-16, Rafale, and Eurofighter. The research and the model digress in the case of the F-35 and the F/A-18.

In the case of the F-35, the study says the different ‘costs arise from the differing power and specific fuel consumptions of the A / C and B models. The B model is the top figure in both cases’. The study says, “The single P&W F-135 engine is relatively fuel efficient for its power, resulting in a lower fuel burn at maximum dry thrust than might be expected.” It adds that, although obviously, ‘accurate CPFH for in-service aircraft does not exist’, ‘the US and Australian forecast costs both suggest it will not offer lower CPFH than current aircraft’, considering ‘the aircraft itself is an extremely sophisticated design carrying a large number of new and unproven onboard systems’.

The report thinks the digression with respect to the Super Hornet is ‘due to the size of the fleet and the experience the US Navy has in operating’ it, compared to the ‘small fleet of the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) that has yet to reach Full Operational Capability’. It points out that ‘RAAF CPFH has fallen significantly as familiarity with the aircraft has grown, and is likely to fall further as this continues to improve’.

But the report also says the Super Hornet has ‘relatively high dry thrust ratings while the GE F414 engine is less efficient in specific fuel consumption than the engines of the similar-sized Rafale and EuroFighter aircraft’. And everything else being the same, the F/A-18 E/F ‘engines use more fuel and are hence relatively costly’ compared to the SNECMA or Eurojet engines, even though the US Navy aircraft have a relatively low CPFH.

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## randomradio

Blue Marlin said:


> whichever bud. any idea when it will be signed? or close to be signed. abindonboy said by end of the fiscal year 31'st of march.



Rafale? Second MMRCA? LSA? Or FGFA?

We don't know anything. According to one source, they have decided when they will sign the Rafale deal, but other than that, nobody has any idea about when these deals will progress. I won't be surprised even if Parrikar says he doesn't know.


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## Stephen Cohen

randomradio said:


> Rafale? Second MMRCA? LSA? Or FGFA?
> 
> We don't know anything. According to one source, they have decided when they will sign the Rafale deal, but other than that, nobody has any idea about when these deals will progress. I won't be surprised even if Parrikar says he doesn't know.



I still think that F 16 has a chance with MII and Rafale will be capped at 54 or 60 maximum
All off the shelf like Mirage 2000

Rafale is NOT interested in Make in India ; they are just playing along to see
what is our reaction to their High pricing 

And unless LM and Boeing's proposals are not decided one way or the other
Rafale contract signature will get delayed


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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Great advice indeed for ... I did not attack you nor did my pope analogy attack Pic!
> If that is what you understood, I know where our differences come from.
> And I didn't ask and you still referred me to a lost offering to Internet Gods so ...
> 
> 
> Just forget both it and me, It will make your life so much easier!



We on IDF are used to taking each others's word for it and let time prove it right. It happened right now. I once told Picdel about the M-2000's lower CPFH rate in India. He asked for proof, I told him to take my word for it 'cause I didn't have it, and he did. There's really no harm done regardless of whether someone is right or wrong. Nobody is winning prizes here.

I think the two of us get into too many useless discussions 'cause we don't see eye to eye on many things.



Stephen Cohen said:


> I still think that F 16 has a chance with MII and Rafale will be capped at 54 or 60 maximum
> All off the shelf like Mirage 2000
> 
> Rafale is NOT interested in Make in India ; they are just playing along to see
> what is our reaction to their High pricing
> 
> And unless LM and Boeing's proposals are not decided one way or the other
> Rafale contract signature will get delayed



Rafale MII decision has already been taken. It's basically 0 Rafales or 180 Rafales. Primarily because it is the only '5th gen' jet available in the market right now.

Dassault is highly interested in MII. I mean, we are basically doubling their program. It's like India buying 2000+ F-35s. Who wouldn't want that?

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> You folks are both absolutely correct
> 
> Jane's Defense is the source.. It was most probably sponsored by Saab as the article said this
> 
> _The operational cost of the Swedish Saab Gripen aircraft is the lowest among a flightline of modern fighters, confirmed a White Paper submitted by the respected international defense publishing group IHS Jane’s, *in response to a study commissioned by Saab.*_
> 
> 
> ++Yet most folks relied on this number and bashed Rafale and EuroFighter for a long long time.. Till at least now Rafale CPFH is more or less a bit cleared..
> 
> @Blue Marlin - My good friend can you have any thing via which we can know CPFH of EF or any governmental record like French Senat ones from which we can derive its CPFH.. Would love to know the real CPFH of EF


@Dash attached the document here
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 127
And on the first page of the document you can see who paid it because the logo is on it:

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> @Dash attached the document here
> Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 127
> And on the first page of the document you can see who paid it because the logo is on it:


Thanks a ton .. that confirms the Saab Link

@Dash Thanks a ton my friend...

sorry i forgot to link the page here in this context..


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## PARIKRAMA

*Source Based News* (added bags of salts as usual)

After a good time, i could have a nice talk with my source.. Following is the gist...

Rafale Deal was never off track - Both for off the shelf purchase and the much bigger MII
The off the shelf cost pruning is finished even in customization part.
The deal is lower than speculated Rs 60,000 Crs. He talked about a give and take around 5-10% unless a new item gets added up till the formal deal is signed. He added IAF is trying to push for some more items.. 
MII Tranches are more or less defined.
MII Tranche 1 is 90, Tranche 2 is also 90 - can be broken down further Tranche 2 and beyond.
MII tranche for IN is being defined. IN needs beyond 54 for first CATOBAR carrier. There is a talk of exclusive Tranche 3 for IN Rafale M or if IAF agrees partial Rafale M orders simultaneous production in Tranche 2.
Tranches planned are overall 5+ over 20 years with every 4 year plan for a new tranche order to distribute costs.
DA also gave a scope of Rafale M first 54 jets to be made in Merignac. IN not inclined but decision firming not yet confirmed to MOD
Speculations in media about liabilities and guarantees is a non issue as it seems India France has agreed on much bigger terms which wont be declared in public. He added _there are some strategic things which i cannot talk at all , one word to define this cooperation is Black Projects _
About Engines he confirmed two plans - One is the natural 8.3 T engine which Safran is already in process of manufacturing with almost 7-8 months already over from project start. 
The second one is a bigger engine with widening of air intakes. This Rafale being planned in the F3R2 time period and is defined as 5th Gen level and will have partial funding by India and will see tranche orders too. 
This second engine part is being negotiated with India wanting limited exclusive access to customers. So far its only for France, India and third customer seems to be UAE with a limited fleet (1 tranche ~ 20 jets approx). 
Negotiations not completed on this front and expected that this decision making may take longer than 1 year time and is separate from existing deal talks. 

The outer periphery for all decisions concerning India except point 11 is estimated to be June 2016 and is laid down by none other than PM NaMo himself. DM MP also have agreed for this timeline but added MII formal contract signing may go to next quarter.
Asked to comment about 16s/18s/Gripen NG, source said as of now all are media hear and say. 
PM and DM are a bit annoyed by the fact that USA has sold some jets to our neighbors and is courting us with the same jet line. 
FM AJ has quoted not to trust USA for strategic projects and has asked for potentially speeding up indigenous engine project to become less dependent on USA. 
Both PM and DM acknowledged that part and a major reshuffle+funding is expected in the domestic engine project.

Source also added - In all probability, unless a major review of LCA Tejas project is done, no other light fighter will be envisioned/procured. 
Similarly untill Rafale MII is not cleared on papers and till clarity of payment schedules by Finance Ministry for future Budget provisioning is done, there is no question of another foreign Jet manufacturing under MII. 

The reality is LM has not just offered F16s. 
The deal being offered is about 160 F16s in 5 years of manufacturing and 2-3 years plant setup for overall 7-8 years and global MRO for Pan World fleet of F16s. 
Then the line gets upgraded for approximately 30+ F35s a year production for India. The reasoning said is by that time owing to already a good amount of localisation of supply chain, the F35s may cost much lower for India and quoted figure for flyaway is more in the range of $75 Mn. (F35s were quoted in LM presentations to other partners to reach $85 Mn and Indian production advantage will push it down by approx 15%) .
DM MP and FM AJ has opposed it completely. 
In DM MP's firm opinion India cannot afford 8 different hi end/5th Gen variants. The present plan of 6 itself is very difficult to implement and appropriate caution is being exercised for planned induction and replacement so that all these variants may be available together at much later timeline.
India already will be operating FGFA, AMCA (2 variants) and Rafale (deep upgraded IAF and IN variant). 
The Super Su30 MKI is also suppose to have derivative technologies from PAKFA present model.
Adding F35s version for IAF and IN will skyrocket operational expenses and will require a much bigger strategic level shift which cannot be sustained by IAF and IN. 
In FM AJ's words, the 16s and 35s essentially will imply end of LCA and AMCA by either limiting their growth plans or making their numbers in significant. The political fall out will be beyond repairable damage and may put NDA out of power for 2 decades easily.
On top the financial needs for acquisition and operational needs is beyond affordability for India for such a fleet of 8 different variants.
PM NaMo emphasized that India's foreign policy must be independent and thus only like minded partners should be chosen who back India's concern at global level with steps to show that not by mere words.
Source says this plan wont be green lighted under any extreme pressure too unless there is a change so big that it will shake global arena forever.


@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @Stephen Cohen

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Source Based News* (added bags of salts as usual)
> 
> After a good time, i could have a nice talk with my source.. Following is the gist...
> 
> Rafale Deal was never off track - Both for off the shelf purchase and the much bigger MII
> The off the shelf cost pruning is finished even in customization part.
> The deal is lower than speculated Rs 60,000 Crs. He talked about a give and take around 5-10% unless a new item gets added up till the formal deal is signed. He added IAF is trying to push for some more items..
> MII Tranches are more or less defined.
> MII Tranche 1 is 90, Tranche 2 is also 90 - can be broken down further Tranche 2 and beyond.
> MII tranche for IN is being defined. IN needs beyond 54 for first CATOBAR carrier. There is a talk of exclusive Tranche 3 for IN Rafale M or if IAF agrees partial Rafale M orders simultaneous production in Tranche 2.
> Tranches planned are overall 5+ over 20 years with every 4 year plan for a new tranche order to distribute costs.
> DA also gave a scope of Rafale M first 54 jets to be made in Merignac. IN not inclined but decision firming not yet confirmed to MOD
> Speculations in media about liabilities and guarantees is a non issue as it seems India France has agreed on much bigger terms which wont be declared in public. He added _there are some strategic things which i cannot talk at all , one word to define this cooperation is Black Projects _
> About Engines he confirmed two plans - One is the natural 8.3 T engine which Safran is already in process of manufacturing with almost 7-8 months already over from project start.
> The second one is a bigger engine with widening of air intakes. This Rafale being planned in the F3R2 time period and is defined as 5th Gen level and will have partial funding by India and will see tranche orders too.
> This second engine part is being negotiated with India wanting limited exclusive access to customers. So far its only for France, India and third customer seems to be UAE with a limited fleet (1 tranche ~ 20 jets approx).
> Negotiations not completed on this front and expected that this decision making may take longer than 1 year time and is separate from existing deal talks.
> 
> The outer periphery for all decisions concerning India except point 11 is estimated to be June 2016 and is laid down by none other than PM NaMo himself. DM MP also have agreed for this timeline but added MII formal contract signing may go to next quarter.
> Asked to comment about 16s/18s/Gripen NG, source said as of now all are media hear and say.
> PM and DM are a bit annoyed by the fact that USA has sold some jets to our neighbors and is courting us with the same jet line.
> FM AJ has quoted not to trust USA for strategic projects and has asked for potentially speeding up indigenous engine project to become less dependent on USA.
> Both PM and DM acknowledged that part and a major reshuffle+funding is expected in the domestic engine project.
> 
> Source also added - In all probability, unless a major review of LCA Tejas project is done, no other light fighter will be envisioned/procured.
> Similarly untill Rafale MII is not cleared on papers and till clarity of payment schedules by Finance Ministry for future Budget provisioning is done, there is no question of another foreign Jet manufacturing under MII.
> 
> The reality is LM has not just offered F16s.
> The deal being offered is about 160 F16s in 5 years of manufacturing and 2-3 years plant setup for overall 7-8 years and global MRO for Pan World fleet of F16s.
> Then the line gets upgraded for approximately 30+ F35s a year production for India. The reasoning said is by that time owing to already a good amount of localisation of supply chain, the F35s may cost much lower for India and quoted figure for flyaway is more in the range of $75 Mn. (F35s were quoted in LM presentations to other partners to reach $85 Mn and Indian production advantage will push it down by approx 15%) .
> DM MP and FM AJ has opposed it completely.
> In DM MP's firm opinion India cannot afford 8 different hi end/5th Gen variants. The present plan of 6 itself is very difficult to implement and appropriate caution is being exercised for planned induction and replacement so that all these variants may be available together at much later timeline.
> India already will be operating FGFA, AMCA (2 variants) and Rafale (deep upgraded IAF and IN variant).
> The Super Su30 MKI is also suppose to have derivative technologies from PAKFA present model.
> Adding F35s version for IAF and IN will skyrocket operational expenses and will require a much bigger strategic level shift which cannot be sustained by IAF and IN.
> In FM AJ's words, the 16s and 35s essentially will imply end of LCA and AMCA by either limiting their growth plans or making their numbers in significant. The political fall out will be beyond repairable damage and may put NDA out of power for 2 decades easily.
> On top the financial needs for acquisition and operational needs is beyond affordability for India for such a fleet of 8 different variants.
> PM NaMo emphasized that India's foreign policy must be independent and thus only like minded partners should be chosen who back India's concern at global level with steps to show that not by mere words.
> Source says this plan wont be green lighted under any extreme pressure too unless there is a change so big that it will shake global arena forever.
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @Stephen Cohen



GOD bless you My Dear Sir 

May you Live for a MILLION YEARS

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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> GOD bless you My Dear Sir
> 
> May you Live for a MILLION YEARS


Whoa.. u really plan me to be a zombie !!!
Blessing are needed for everyone my good friend.. I wish the same from God for your well being too..

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## Armani

@PARIKRAMA

I think I was correct in saying that IN's first tranche of Rafale requirement could end up being higher than 54. The IAC-2 is expected to carry 3 sqds of fighters which puts the minimum number at 48 (16/sqd) to a maximum of 54 onboard fighters (18/sqd).

Now unless IN's aircraft-per-squadron ratio is different/lower, I don't see any way how we would be needing fewer fighters onboard. Ofcourse much will depend on the peacetime quantity and wartime/maximum capacity changes.

Besides Rafale, the IAC-2 will be carrying up to 3-4 Grumman E-2D Advanced Hawkeye early warning aircraft (with the AESA radar, a great improvement over previous ones used in E-2C and older versions) and anywhere between 5 to 10 multi-role helicopters.

Parik dude, you should definitely sit down for a chat with your sources about the IAC-2, and the future of Navy in general. And is there any update on the rumored P-71A carrier (the improved IAC-1)? If that plan materializes as an interim solution (until IAC-2 design & development of reactor is complete), the Rafale-M requirement could really increase manifold, as you already seen to have projected a while ago.

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## sathya

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Source Based News* (added bags of salts as usual)
> 
> After a good time, i could have a nice talk with my source.. Following is the gist...
> 
> Rafale Deal was never off track - Both for off the shelf purchase and the much bigger MII
> The off the shelf cost pruning is finished even in customization part.
> The deal is lower than speculated Rs 60,000 Crs. He talked about a give and take around 5-10% unless a new item gets added up till the formal deal is signed. He added IAF is trying to push for some more items..
> MII Tranches are more or less defined.
> MII Tranche 1 is 90, Tranche 2 is also 90 - can be broken down further Tranche 2 and beyond.
> MII tranche for IN is being defined. IN needs beyond 54 for first CATOBAR carrier. There is a talk of exclusive Tranche 3 for IN Rafale M or if IAF agrees partial Rafale M orders simultaneous production in Tranche 2.
> Tranches planned are overall 5+ over 20 years with every 4 year plan for a new tranche order to distribute costs.
> DA also gave a scope of Rafale M first 54 jets to be made in Merignac. IN not inclined but decision firming not yet confirmed to MOD
> Speculations in media about liabilities and guarantees is a non issue as it seems India France has agreed on much bigger terms which wont be declared in public. He added _there are some strategic things which i cannot talk at all , one word to define this cooperation is Black Projects _
> About Engines he confirmed two plans - One is the natural 8.3 T engine which Safran is already in process of manufacturing with almost 7-8 months already over from project start.
> The second one is a bigger engine with widening of air intakes. This Rafale being planned in the F3R2 time period and is defined as 5th Gen level and will have partial funding by India and will see tranche orders too.
> This second engine part is being negotiated with India wanting limited exclusive access to customers. So far its only for France, India and third customer seems to be UAE with a limited fleet (1 tranche ~ 20 jets approx).
> Negotiations not completed on this front and expected that this decision making may take longer than 1 year time and is separate from existing deal talks.
> 
> The outer periphery for all decisions concerning India except point 11 is estimated to be June 2016 and is laid down by none other than PM NaMo himself. DM MP also have agreed for this timeline but added MII formal contract signing may go to next quarter.
> Asked to comment about 16s/18s/Gripen NG, source said as of now all are media hear and say.
> PM and DM are a bit annoyed by the fact that USA has sold some jets to our neighbors and is courting us with the same jet line.
> FM AJ has quoted not to trust USA for strategic projects and has asked for potentially speeding up indigenous engine project to become less dependent on USA.
> Both PM and DM acknowledged that part and a major reshuffle+funding is expected in the domestic engine project.
> 
> Source also added - In all probability, unless a major review of LCA Tejas project is done, no other light fighter will be envisioned/procured.
> Similarly untill Rafale MII is not cleared on papers and till clarity of payment schedules by Finance Ministry for future Budget provisioning is done, there is no question of another foreign Jet manufacturing under MII.
> 
> The reality is LM has not just offered F16s.
> The deal being offered is about 160 F16s in 5 years of manufacturing and 2-3 years plant setup for overall 7-8 years and global MRO for Pan World fleet of F16s.
> Then the line gets upgraded for approximately 30+ F35s a year production for India. The reasoning said is by that time owing to already a good amount of localisation of supply chain, the F35s may cost much lower for India and quoted figure for flyaway is more in the range of $75 Mn. (F35s were quoted in LM presentations to other partners to reach $85 Mn and Indian production advantage will push it down by approx 15%) .
> DM MP and FM AJ has opposed it completely.
> In DM MP's firm opinion India cannot afford 8 different hi end/5th Gen variants. The present plan of 6 itself is very difficult to implement and appropriate caution is being exercised for planned induction and replacement so that all these variants may be available together at much later timeline.
> India already will be operating FGFA, AMCA (2 variants) and Rafale (deep upgraded IAF and IN variant).
> The Super Su30 MKI is also suppose to have derivative technologies from PAKFA present model.
> Adding F35s version for IAF and IN will skyrocket operational expenses and will require a much bigger strategic level shift which cannot be sustained by IAF and IN.
> In FM AJ's words, the 16s and 35s essentially will imply end of LCA and AMCA by either limiting their growth plans or making their numbers in significant. The political fall out will be beyond repairable damage and may put NDA out of power for 2 decades easily.
> On top the financial needs for acquisition and operational needs is beyond affordability for India for such a fleet of 8 different variants.
> PM NaMo emphasized that India's foreign policy must be independent and thus only like minded partners should be chosen who back India's concern at global level with steps to show that not by mere words.
> Source says this plan wont be green lighted under any extreme pressure too unless there is a change so big that it will shake global arena forever.
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @Stephen Cohen




Any new development regarding the help for LCA ?

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> DA also gave a scope of Rafale M first 54 jets to be made in Merignac.



Vstol pointed out the same thing a month ago.



> He added _there are some strategic things which i cannot talk at all , one word to define this cooperation is Black Projects_


_
_
And he said this is linked to the nuclear submarine.

Your point 6 is not difficult to achieve from what Picdel has said. It ultimately depends on how many Rafales the IAF can afford every year. If Dassault says they will set up a 36 jet line in India, then it won't work out if IAF will accept all 36 jets.

Point 14 is guaranteed. Unless IAF gets full assurance of the number of Rafales and their guaranteed delivery, they won't allow any other program derailing it, even FGFA and AMCA.

Point 15 is an absolute nightmare.

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## PARIKRAMA

Armani said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> I think I was correct in saying that IN's first tranche of Rafale requirement could end up being higher than 54. The IAC-2 is expected to carry 3 sqds of fighters which puts the minimum number at 48 (16/sqd) to a maximum of 54 onboard fighters (18/sqd).
> 
> Now unless IN's aircraft-per-squadron ratio is different/lower, I don't see any way how we would be needing fewer fighters onboard. Ofcourse much will depend on the peacetime quantity and wartime/maximum capacity changes.
> 
> Besides Rafale, the IAC-2 will be carrying up to 3-4 Grumman E-2D Advanced Hawkeye early warning aircraft (with the AESA radar, a great improvement over previous ones used in E-2C and older versions) and anywhere between 5 to 10 multi-role helicopters.
> 
> Parik dude, you should definitely sit down for a chat with your sources about the IAC-2, and the future of Navy in general. And is there any update on the rumored P-71A carrier (the improved IAC-1)? If that plan materializes as an interim solution (until IAC-2 design & development of reactor is complete), the Rafale-M requirement could really increase manifold, as you already seen to have projected a while ago.



As far as i know Cochin Shipyard Limited will be given a follow on order for IAC1 or called IAC1 Mod or as you said P-71A. The improvement targeted is modest and is actually more tangible in terms of realistic expectation.. Its expected to be about 10-15% more in tonnage and air arm is planned to upgrade and reach approx 36 jets of medium category or even reach more if its a mix of medium + light category (read LCA Naval version)

What i had understood is there are 2 shipyards identified for Aircraft carrier projects. 
The conventional one is in West Coast and most probably CSL which will roll out a total of 3 carriers over time with each one having a incremental improvement of tonnage, systems and fire power.
The nuclear power or hybrid power system one will be in east coast and will be closer to SBC Vishakapatnam.. At present Reliance ADAG has got the nearest place in the vicinity in Rambili. Livefist carried this picture few months back on this





Now ADAG group has portrayed that in their internal presentation for both naval and aerospace divisions















The biggest change that is planned by IN is a need that has been tabled with MOD for bases in east and west coastal sides for a dedicated shore based role over places which are of strategic importance. Rambili, Karwar, Varsha, Thiruvananthapuram and few more places are some of the notable names which IN wants to cover themselves over next 2 decade or so. That role is actually a way to free up IAF Jets and allow IAF to push their fleet up more in east and west India. MOD may approve this plan partially under 2027-42 Naval plan.

Naval plans are still being firmed up.. I will try and see if i get more information



sathya said:


> Any new development regarding the help for LCA ?



It will be under tangible offset for under carriage consultancy. Once DPP 2016 is officially released, this part will become more clear.

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## for truth

randomradio said:


> Vstol pointed out the same thing a month ago.
> 
> _
> _
> And he said this is linked to the nuclear submarine.
> 
> Your point 6 is not difficult to achieve from what Picdel has said. It ultimately depends on how many Rafales the IAF can afford every year. If Dassault says they will set up a 36 jet line in India, then it won't work out if IAF will accept all 36 jets.
> 
> Point 14 is guaranteed. Unless IAF gets full assurance of the number of Rafales and their guaranteed delivery, they won't allow any other program derailing it, even FGFA and AMCA.
> 
> Point 15 is an absolute nightmare.




If i can make a little insignificant contribution to this thread, I remember Prasun Sengupta long back mentioned about the french cooperation for Indian nuclear submarines-the barracuda.

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## sathya

for truth said:


> If i can make a little insignificant contribution to this thread, I remember Prasun Sengupta long back mentioned about the french cooperation for Indian nuclear submarines-the barracuda.



Is it the barracuda reactor for indian nuclear submarines 

or barracuda sub with indian reactor ?

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## PARIKRAMA

sathya said:


> Is it the barracuda reactor for indian nuclear submarines
> 
> or barracuda sub with indian reactor ?



We cant get barracuda reactor officially.. Nor we can get barracuda sub officially and get N reactor fitted on it..

One way is exclusive hush hush help in reactors via Areva L&T deal; Second way is via P75I project and awarding it to DCNS and using SMX 80 submarine which is based on Barracuda N sub and get technology of submarine except reactor tech into India via a legitimate route.

If not then it has to be based on some other project where we pay an amount and get tech which goes into the N Subs.. (piggyback ride situation)

One of the way planned is getting DCNS to do consultancy for N ACC or IAC2... That actually helps us prepare the peripheral zone of IAC2 Reactor and we can of course use DCNS consultancy for the same around SSNs. DCNS is already there in Scorpene subs project and we will see them given a follow on order.. DCNS may also be given an exception for 100% FDI route to set up certain subsidiaries in India for example for AIP and others so that it can handle and manage tech being coming into India for Black projects.

As far as i understand India is interested more in barracuda sub technology than its reactor.. The submarine SSN may be a elongated Arihant design with placement changes in overall design.. Thats from outside in drawing board.. In actual, the real SSN will have everything based out of tech from Kilo, Scorpene, Akula and P75I chosen for the best fitment basis. Surprisingly Kilo and Akula are Russian so Scorpene and P75I if its french it makes sense, if its like French and German (P75I), the relationship with Germany has to grow to same extent as France to accommodate such requests.. Thats a pretty steep need actually but realizable. Germans are becoming a bit desperate with today offering to build Australia all 12 subs at half cost as talked for Japan's Soryu under SEA 1000 plan.. So i expect them to agree if India does ask such tech for black projects.

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## Taygibay

Post #2827 

& "As far as i understand India is interested more in barracuda sub technology than its reactor."
K15 same as Charles-de-Gaulle. But DCNS has a conventional powered version ready on paper.
So it can be any mix and match.

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## PARIKRAMA

Some thing more interesting on DA side

++
17 Mar, 16
*First Ultra Long Range Falcon 8X Set for Delivery to Indian Operator by End of 2016*
Dassault Aviation presents its fleet of Falcon large cabin, long range business jets at India Aviation, India’s biggest civilian aviation exhibition.








The fifth edition of this prestigious event, which opens today at Hyderabad Begumpet Airport, features Dassault’s popular 4,000 nm/7,410 km range Falcon 2000LXS widebody twinjet.

Dassault is the Indian market leader for large cabin, long range aircraft, with 22 aircraft currently in service and several more on order. This position stems in part from the Indian Air Force’s long experience with Dassault fighters, whose advanced technologies, notably digital flight control, served as the basis for that on the Falcon 7X.

*“We expect the country’s accelerating economic growth to translate into rising Falcon sales going forward,*” said Dassault Aviation Chairman/CEO Eric Trappier. *“No other business jet line is more suited to local requirements, whether it be in terms of cabin design, flying performance, fuel economy or versatility, than Falcon.*”

Dassault’s popular Falcon 2000 twinjet – now approaching the 600th production mark – accounts for the largest portion of the present Indian fleet. Sales are currently being driven by the Falcon 2000LXS, the newest edition in the 2000 line, which offers a short-field capability comparable to smaller midsize and super midsize business jet models but with a range and comfort level far better than these aircraft.

This summer, the Falcon 2000 line will be certified to carry Dassault’s new FalconEye Combined Vision System option, allowing the LXS and the shorter range Falcon 2000S entry level jet to be offered with this revolutionary head up display, the first in the industry to meld synthetic and enhanced vision capabilities.

*Bulk of New Sales Coming from Falcon 7X, 8X*

*The majority of new Indian Falcon orders, however, are for longer range models like the Falcon 7X and the new ultra long range Falcon 8X that can fly non-stop from anywhere in India to destinations such as London City Airport that are typically off limits to big business jets.*

*The 6,450 nm/11,945 km Falcon 8X, which will feature the quietest and most comfortable cabin in business aviation, is due to be delivered to its first Indian operator by the end of 2016. The 8X will offer all the advanced technological features of the popular Falcon 7X, from which it is derived, including the industry’s leading digital flight control suite. It will also be certified with the advanced FalconEye Combined Vision System.*

Set to be certified in mid-2016, the new trijet will offer the longest range of any Falcon along with the most extensive selection of cabin configurations available on any large cabin business jet.

The three 8X’s in the flight test program have nearly completed all certification test requirements, having accumulated over 550 flight hours to date.

This spring, s/n 03, the first 8X with a fully fitted interior, will undergo a global test campaign to demonstrate aircraft operational reliability and performance in different flight conditions. The month-long campaign will subject the aircraft to the extremes of what Falcon 8X customers might expect to face during its operational life and focus particular attention on the performance of cabin equipment and functionalities and other high speed communications systems, especially during long intercontinental flights.
*
Dassault also predicts strong demand among Indian customers for the all-new Falcon 5X very large body twin, currently in development. Due to enter service in 2020, the 5,200 nm/9,630 km 5X will offer the largest cabin cross-section of any business jet and the lowest ownership and operating costs in the 5,000 nm segment.*

*“The unmatched ability of Falcons to combine short and long haul flights and fly out of short hard-to-reach airstrips with full range performance – even at high altitudes and high temperature conditions – make them perfect for Indian operating conditions,” continued Trappier.*

*Reinforced support network*

*Meanwhile, Dassault continues to reinforce its regional support presence. Last year, the company opened a new Bangalore office and authorized Ligare Engineering, a division of Ligare Voyages, to provide AOG Service Level Maintenance for the Falcon 7X at its Delhi service facility.*

*The deal with Ligare followed previous Authorized Service Center agreements with Taj Air/Metrojet, for the Falcon 2000 series, and Air Works India, for the Falcon 900EX/LX line. Both of these operations are located in Mumbai and supported by satellite facilities around the country.

The regional service centers are backed up by spares warehouses in Mumbai and Chennai and offshore facilities in Dubai,Singapore and Paris.*

Source: First Ultra Long Range Falcon 8X Set for Delivery to Indian Operator by End of 2016 | Littlegate Publishing

India Aviation Exhibition and Conference Event 2016 - India Aviation Exhibition And Conference Event 2016 in India | India Aviation

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## Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio said:


> Vstol pointed out the same thing a month ago.
> 
> And he said this is linked to the nuclear submarine.


Could be also an access to Laser Megajoule.


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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Could be also an access to Laser Megajoule.



Isn't this a dual use civilian project? And don't we need NSG approval?

Anyway, yes, the assistance seems to be connected to the nuclear field, whether it's this or that.


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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


>


These slides alone are worthy of their own thread- big plans are afoot.

+ notice what they say at the bottom, under "Make in India" 

I hope this isn't the last we hear from you bro but they're probably already on ther way.... 



sathya said:


> Is it the barracuda reactor for indian nuclear submarines
> 
> or barracuda sub with indian reactor ?


Barracuda hull and her most advanced technologies (like combat managment system, pump jet propulsion etc) but with an Indian PWR.

+ I wonder if the French will be helping on the BARC/DAE PWR efforts ie to increase periods between refueling and increase output.

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## randomradio

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @MilSpec @Stephen Cohen 

You guys have to check out the brand new thread on IDF made today.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @MilSpec
> 
> You guys have to check out the brand new thread on IDF made today.


link?


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> link?



Can that be posted here?


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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> Can that be posted here?


If not, what is the thread title sir?



Taygibay said:


> Post #2827
> 
> & "As far as i understand India is interested more in barracuda sub technology than its reactor."
> K15 same as Charles-de-Gaulle. But DCNS has a conventional powered version ready on paper.
> So it can be any mix and match.


The Indian navy isn't interested in anymore convetional submarines beyond the Scorpenes and P-75(I)s, they are now finalising their plans for a new class of homemade SSN that is where the Barracuda comes in.


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> If not, what is the thread title sir?



Light Stealth Aircraft of course.



> The Indian navy isn't interested in anymore convetional submarines beyond the Scorpenes and P-75(I)s, they are now finalising their plans for a new class of homemade SSN that is where the Barracuda comes in.



IN will buy more SSKs after P-75I, but they will be indigenous.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> Light Stealth Aircraft of course.
> 
> .


IMO, MP is talking about the LCA MK.2 here.

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> These slides alone are worthy of their own thread- big plans are afoot.
> 
> + notice what they say at the bottom, under "Make in India"
> 
> I hope this isn't the last we hear from you bro but they're probably already on ther way....



Ok here is the ppt.. This is Reliance ADAG group plan under MII.. It seems ADAG group has really drawn a big war chest for their plans..































randomradio said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @MilSpec @Stephen Cohen
> 
> You guys have to check out the brand new thread on IDF made today.



Is it back online.. Seems that site became very unreliable.. I hope we could get some of the folks over here as PDF dont seems to have longer downtime.



randomradio said:


> Light Stealth Aircraft of course.



I like the concept of what you have described before in this thread.. What would be really interesting is the project execution timeline.. If and there is a big IF, i could presume that head to head a LSA and LCA Mk2 projects are compared and its clearly found out that LSA is superior, I would love to see resources of ADA, HAL and DRDO coming in together and then solely focusing in LSA only..

Its a like American fighter plane deals where 2 competitors come out with protos and the winner takes the cake.

But i see this to be a long road.. Bcz as of now i really am not sure that a private citizen of India, an Ex Forces, with even the best potential pvt sector backing, foreign help from OEMs can forge a JV with HAL, ADA, DRDO for the project execution of LSA.. Sadly as of now, our country does not have such a structure..

Perhaps we should call it LXX Fighter Competition and make it official.. That way we can really change the course of our future jet production in India. and define such JV for winner..

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Big plans afoot. I wonder what's the status of NOPV. 


PARIKRAMA said:


> We cant get barracuda reactor officially.. Nor we can get barracuda sub officially and get N reactor fitted on it..
> 
> One way is exclusive hush hush help in reactors via Areva L&T deal; Second way is via P75I project and awarding it to DCNS and using SMX 80 submarine which is based on Barracuda N sub and get technology of submarine except reactor tech into India via a legitimate route.
> 
> If not then it has to be based on some other project where we pay an amount and get tech which goes into the N Subs.. (piggyback ride situation)
> 
> One of the way planned is getting DCNS to do consultancy for N ACC or IAC2... That actually helps us prepare the peripheral zone of IAC2 Reactor and we can of course use DCNS consultancy for the same around SSNs. DCNS is already there in Scorpene subs project and we will see them given a follow on order.. DCNS may also be given an exception for 100% FDI route to set up certain subsidiaries in India for example for AIP and others so that it can handle and manage tech being coming into India for Black projects.
> 
> As far as i understand India is interested more in barracuda sub technology than its reactor.. The submarine SSN may be a elongated Arihant design with placement changes in overall design.. Thats from outside in drawing board.. In actual, the real SSN will have everything based out of tech from Kilo, Scorpene, Akula and P75I chosen for the best fitment basis. Surprisingly Kilo and Akula are Russian so Scorpene and P75I if its french it makes sense, if its like French and German (P75I), the relationship with Germany has to grow to same extent as France to accommodate such requests.. Thats a pretty steep need actually but realizable. Germans are becoming a bit desperate with today offering to build Australia all 12 subs at half cost as talked for Japan's Soryu under SEA 1000 plan.. So i expect them to agree if India does ask such tech for black projects.



Hmm, what's the kind of deal between DCNS and Brazil then? They are getting a SSN. 

And even the Jaitpur deal seems off. I wonder how will we pull off anything like that.


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> IMO, MP is talking about the LCA MK.2 here.



The Mk2 is gone bro. The air chief has confirmed that they won't be buying it.



PARIKRAMA said:


> I like the concept of what you have described before in this thread.. What would be really interesting is the project execution timeline.. If and there is a big IF, i could presume that head to head a LSA and LCA Mk2 projects are compared and its clearly found out that LSA is superior, I would love to see resources of ADA, HAL and DRDO coming in together and then solely focusing in LSA only..
> 
> Its a like American fighter plane deals where 2 competitors come out with protos and the winner takes the cake.
> 
> But i see this to be a long road.. Bcz as of now i really am not sure that a private citizen of India, an Ex Forces, with even the best potential pvt sector backing, foreign help from OEMs can forge a JV with HAL, ADA, DRDO for the project execution of LSA.. Sadly as of now, our country does not have such a structure..
> 
> Perhaps we should call it LXX Fighter Competition and make it official.. That way we can really change the course of our future jet production in India. and define such JV for winner..



He says 4 years and a squadron will be delivered.

LSA has a huge IWB. It's air to air loadout matches the PAK FA, 16 missiles. LCA can barely carry 4 without sacrificing range and still get outranged on LSA's internal fuel alone.

Read that thread, it's 3 pages of practically an interview.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> The Mk2 is gone bro. The air chief has confirmed that they won't be buying it.


Navy is still pursuing it and the IAF will likely get "re-interested" once all this Rafale drama is over and things have settled down.

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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Big plans afoot. I wonder what's the status of NOPV.
> 
> 
> Hmm, what's the kind of deal between DCNS and Brazil then? They are getting a SSN.
> 
> And even the Jaitpur deal seems off. I wonder how will we pull off anything like that.


Why this new id.. What happened to previous one?

You are talking about this the SN-Br project


















Brazil reveals submarine design details at LAAD 2013. The PWR reactor design for the Brazilian Navy’s future nuclear-powered submarine (SN-Br) has been completed with assistance from France. A model of the design, known as the 2131-R, and an actual-size combustion element were on display at the navy’s stand at the LAAD exhibition in Rio de Janeiro. The navy had two separate designs of the SN-Br on display at the stand. A model from the navy’s technology centre in Sao Paulo showed a submarine divided into seven blocks with the PWR reactor positioned amidships eight torpedoes situated at the front of the boat. Navy literature showed a second design with just two torpedo tubes but including six vertical launch missile tubes in the front section of the boat. This version is to displace 4,000t and have a length of 100m and diameter of 9.8m.

As far as i understand the reactor is based on Rubis design and is much lower in rating in 48 MW

*Choosing French technology*
_
Traditionally, the countries that have nuclear submarines developed their designs on the basis of several stages of the development of their conventional submarines. Many took years to develop that technology. Today, just two countries produce both conventional and nuclear subs: France and Russia. The Brazilian Navy visited both countries, studied their designs, surveyed their clients worldwide, and concluded that France was the most solid partner for Brazil.

In the first place, this is because France was willing to transfer technology for both the design of a nuclear-powered submarine – in this case, internal structures and systems (except for the nuclear reactor, which was developed by the Navy itself) – and conventional Scorpene subs.

In the second place, the conventional Scorpene sub is different from other conventional models because it includes security concepts similar to those used in its nuclear counterpart (such as sensor, combat and motor cooling systems, etc.). This is because the design is derived from the Rubis/Amethyste, another French nuclear submarine. Brazil’s participation in the construction of the first the four Scorpene submarines will begin in 2011. That vessel will be completed by 2015.
Issue #176 | A dream comes to the surface


_


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## Abingdonboy

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Big plans afoot. I wonder what's the status of NOPV.


First one to be inducted in June 2016 AFAIK.

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> Navy is still pursuing it and the IAF will likely get "re-interested" once all this Rafale drama is over and things have settled down.



I don't know about the future, but as of today, the air chief himself said they will no longer recognize the Mk2 program. Right now, they will buy 120+ LCA and then upgrade them as time passes.

Anyway-
Indigenous Fighter Aircraft to be a Reality Soon, Says Parrikar | Page 2

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Ok here is the ppt.. This is Reliance ADAG group plan under MII.. It seems ADAG group has really drawn a big war chest for their plans..
> View attachment 299674
> 
> View attachment 299675
> 
> View attachment 299676
> 
> View attachment 299678
> 
> View attachment 299679
> 
> View attachment 299680
> 
> View attachment 299681
> 
> .


Bro, start a new thread and tag as many people as possible for this PPT, it's really quite something. We are witnessing a revolution in front of our eyes, no one could have imagined even 4 years ago that the private sector would have such ambitious plans for the Indian market.

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> Bro, start a new thread and tag as many people as possible for this PPT, it's really quite something. We are witnessing a revolution in front of our eyes, no one could have imagined even 4 years ago that the private sector would have such ambitious plans for the Indian market.


okies, what do you think i should put in title?

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> okies, what do you think i should put in title?


"Reliance presents its ambitious Make in India plan?" something like that maybe bro?

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## Ankit Kumar 002

PARIKRAMA said:


> Why this new id.. What happened to previous one?
> 
> You are talking about this the SN-Br project
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brazil reveals submarine design details at LAAD 2013. The PWR reactor design for the Brazilian Navy’s future nuclear-powered submarine (SN-Br) has been completed with assistance from France. A model of the design, known as the 2131-R, and an actual-size combustion element were on display at the navy’s stand at the LAAD exhibition in Rio de Janeiro. The navy had two separate designs of the SN-Br on display at the stand. A model from the navy’s technology centre in Sao Paulo showed a submarine divided into seven blocks with the PWR reactor positioned amidships eight torpedoes situated at the front of the boat. Navy literature showed a second design with just two torpedo tubes but including six vertical launch missile tubes in the front section of the boat. This version is to displace 4,000t and have a length of 100m and diameter of 9.8m.
> 
> As far as i understand the reactor is based on Rubis design and is much lower in rating in 48 MW
> 
> *Choosing French technology*
> _
> Traditionally, the countries that have nuclear submarines developed their designs on the basis of several stages of the development of their conventional submarines. Many took years to develop that technology. Today, just two countries produce both conventional and nuclear subs: France and Russia. The Brazilian Navy visited both countries, studied their designs, surveyed their clients worldwide, and concluded that France was the most solid partner for Brazil.
> 
> In the first place, this is because France was willing to transfer technology for both the design of a nuclear-powered submarine – in this case, internal structures and systems (except for the nuclear reactor, which was developed by the Navy itself) – and conventional Scorpene subs.
> 
> In the second place, the conventional Scorpene sub is different from other conventional models because it includes security concepts similar to those used in its nuclear counterpart (such as sensor, combat and motor cooling systems, etc.). This is because the design is derived from the Rubis/Amethyste, another French nuclear submarine. Brazil’s participation in the construction of the first the four Scorpene submarines will begin in 2011. That vessel will be completed by 2015.
> 
> _



Okie, so we cannot simply say that we cannot get a French reactor or their assistance but the problem may be that the French might be unwilling to give out their higher powered PWRs. 

PS:- Had some fun in thread about terrorists killed in Kashmir, seems like some admins didn't take it easily.



Abingdonboy said:


> First one to be inducted in June 2016 AFAIK.



Hmm, its their first such order..... some delay can be accepted , but its much more than a little delay. 

Personally speaking, we should have had stuck to GSL to deliver a second batch of 4 more OPVs and simultaneously given orders to pipavav.

@PARIKRAMA 
In your post #2848 why is " Surface to surface missile mentioned. Any such project going private sector way ? 

Seems like I cannot quote links

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## Masterhunter

randomradio said:


> The Mk2 is gone bro. The air chief has confirmed that they won't be buying it.
> 
> 
> 
> He says 4 years and a squadron will be delivered.
> 
> LSA has a huge IWB. It's air to air loadout matches the PAK FA, 16 missiles. LCA can barely carry 4 without sacrificing range and still get outranged on LSA's internal fuel alone.
> 
> Read that thread, it's 3 pages of practically an interview.



I have read it... And I feel most of it is fiction...
See it's a light stealth aircraft..
He says so many things present in it which seems impossible in a LIGHT stealth aircraft

1. One Internal central bay and two side bays holding six missiles... And then eight external hard points and two wingtips.... A total of 16 hardpoints...Even su30/rafalr don't have 16 hard points.. Having eight hard points with three internal bay for a light aircraft seems impossible. Even PaKFA has six hard points.. Four external hard points with three IWB is more feasible for a light aircraft.
2. Payload of 7.5 tons ...for a light aircraft is too much... It won't remain a light aircraft then.
3. Ej230 will be more fuel consumer than F404/414... So it needs more internal fuel if needs to be having combat radius in range of rafale.. About minimum of 5-6 ton fuel..
4. Airframe to carry 5-6 ton fuel and 7.5 ton of payload ..that is total of 12.5-13.5 ton...it needs to be decent big and strong ..a minimum weight of 7.5-8 tons with Max use of composites.. Hence total weight will be about 20-21 tons... At this weight it is no longer a light aircraft but a medium aircraft
4. It's single engine... Ej230 gives wet thrust of 102 KN... With 20 ton weight it's highly underpowered.. It won't supercruise.
5. Central internal weapon bay of size of PAKFA... How can u create a weapon bay of size of PAKFA and still make it a smaller plane and call it light? 4. 25 M of IWB is too big for a small light weight aircraft.
PAKFA is 19 M in length while LCA is 14M

That why I felt the specs are all haywire..... I feel it's impossible to achieve in a light aircraft.... Whatever any one will say .

If the designer would have said that the load will be 4-5 tons, fuel range 4-5 tons.. And combat range of 600-700 kms.. And all up weight of 15 ton or so.. With four hard points externally. Then I might have agreed..

Lastly, going to beijing and come back with su30... Joke of the week...
U are comparing combat radius of light fighter with heavy fighter..
It's too good to be true... It looks like a typical DRDO work culture... Speak more than u can achieve..

@Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar 002 @randomradio @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay

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## randomradio

Masterhunter said:


> 2. Payload of 7.5 tons ...for a light aircraft is too much... It won't remain a light aircraft then.



It's like a LCA Mk2 with 120KN engines. The F-16A had a payload of 6.5 tons on a 110KN engine. The LSA has a more powerful engine.



> 3. Ej230 will be more fuel consumer than F404/414... So it needs more internal fuel if needs to be having combat radius in range of rafale.. About minimum of 5-6 ton fuel..



Fuel fraction is 0.37. Don't ask me the math. No idea. Likely includes the CFTs, so I went wrong with that one.



> 4. Airframe to carry 5-6 ton fuel and 7.5 ton of payload ..that is total of 12.5-13.5 ton...it needs to be decent big and strong ..a minimum weight of 7.5-8 tons with Max use of composites.. Hence total weight will be about 20-21 tons... At this weight it is no longer a light aircraft but a medium aircraft



It is about the same as a F-16B50 if you ask me. So I think you roughly got the empty weight right. He doesn't have any plan to use composites like on the LCA. He plans to use a mix of metal and composites.



> 4. It's single engine... Ej230 gives wet thrust of 102 KN... With 20 ton weight it's highly underpowered.. It won't supercruise.



70/120KN.



> Lastly, going to beijing and come back with su30... Joke of the week...



The fuel fraction with CFTs is higher than the Su-30.

Overall impression: Gotta see it to believe it. So even I'm on the fence regarding that. Don't shoot the messenger.

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## sathya

Is it a single engine aircraft ?

Let's forget about L - light .

----------------------------

Is it like a Aura but with a pilot ?


----------------------

EF engine with TVC
Israeli electronics,
Take off even from roads
7.5 ton payload
Large fuel + CFT
16 hard points 
4 years time line
Power by wire

NO matter how hard I think... Not possible in 4 years .

Is it possible VSTOL account got hacked ? 
And someone playing games?

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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Okie, so we cannot simply say that we cannot get a French reactor or their assistance but the problem may be that the French might be unwilling to give out their higher powered PWRs.
> 
> PS:- Had some fun in thread about terrorists killed in Kashmir, seems like some admins didn't take it easily.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, its their first such order..... some delay can be accepted , but its much more than a little delay.
> 
> Personally speaking, we should have had stuck to GSL to deliver a second batch of 4 more OPVs and simultaneously given orders to pipavav.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA
> In your post #2848 why is " Surface to surface missile mentioned. Any such project going private sector way ?
> 
> Seems like I cannot quote links

















What i had always understood is they will do SAM missile works with Antlei Almaz /Russia for S-400, Tor 1M and Pantsirs..
For surface to Surface via Kilo upgrade program perhaps Klub missile manufacturing or maintainence work, also perhaps a tie up from other CMs like Brahmos for Pipavav yard programs


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## Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio said:


> He says 4 years and a squadron will be delivered.


Indian time or normal time?


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## sathya

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Indian time or normal time?


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## Stephen Cohen

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Indian time or normal time?



In India there is a Joke 
IST actually refers to Indian Standard Time 

But we say that IST means Indian STRETCHABLE Time


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## BON PLAN

Is this forum dead ?


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## Blue Marlin

BON PLAN said:


> Is this forum dead ?


i dont know what do you think?

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## Stephen Cohen

BON PLAN said:


> Is this forum dead ?



All posts after March 19 till April 11 have disappeared


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## Taygibay

There was an attack. Check here people :

Pakistan Defence Forum is back online.

Good day all, Tay.

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## PARIKRAMA

Coming to land very soon

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## PARIKRAMA

ex French Prez in India.. some interesting comments

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> ex French Prez in India.. some interesting comments
> 
> View attachment 300071



Hello Sir what is the Time deadline for this decision on the new fighter 
Any idea

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> ex French Prez in India.. some interesting comments
> 
> View attachment 300071


Unrrelated but yesterday the IA's former COAS JJ Singh was conffered France's highest civilan distinction the "Officier de l'Ordre national de la Legion d'Honneur"

Ex-army chief JJ Singh gets highest French civilian honour - The Economic Times

@Taygibay @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN

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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> Hello Sir what is the Time deadline for this decision on the new fighter
> Any idea


Rafale news will be out max by May/June..
Other fighter not sure.. if its US fighters, its still very long time away..

let me check with source and see if i get something

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## zebra7

Stephen Cohen said:


> All posts after March 19 till April 11 have disappeared



Or, the @WebMaster decided to remove the old data, to save the data load. If the hacker was able to enter the webserver, he could easily distroy the whole data, but there is always backup available, which might not be there with the @WebMaster prior 2011 April 19.


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## Stephen Cohen

Talks for 36 Rafale jets far from over | The Financial Express

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA


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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> Talks for 36 Rafale jets far from over | The Financial Express
> 
> @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA


This article os all over the place:

_The Indian side is expecting that through negotiations, it will manage to strike a deal at* $7 billion* for 36 machines._


_---------_

A few lines later:


_“India is pushing for the deal to close between* $5-6 billion* for 36 aircraft and it should be inclusive of all the support and maintenance infrastructure,” an official revealed.

---------
_
Most of what is being said is either blatently untrue or is very old news but all becomes clear:

_Meanwhile, Swedish defence major Saab AB has offered to manufacture its * fifth-generation Gripen *fighter aircraft here with technology transfer to India in a renewed bid for a pie in the multi-billion dollar Indian Air Force (IAF) modernisation plan and in compliance with Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s ‘Make In India’ initiative.
Saab, which lost in the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender in 2011 — won by French firm Dassault Aviation SA — anticipates that the IAF will need more than the 36 Rafale fighter jets that India is buying from France to beef up its depleting fleet. The Swedish company is not only offering to set up a base here, but also help in development of aerospace capability for the next 100 years, along with partnership in developing the next version of the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas and the advanced medium combat aircraft, being developed and designed by the Aeronautical Development Agency.

Recently, Saab (India) chief Jan Widerstrom said the company is also ready to stick by New Delhi’s negative list — as was made clear by defence minister Manohar Parrikar — when it comes to exporting fighter aircraft from India.
_

---------
About 1/3rd of this article is nothing but idiotic promotion for the Gripen.

This idiot is all too eager to earn his paycheck from his Swedish masters.


+ we've gone from absurd projections of the quoted cost by Dassault ($12 billion+) to absurd price demands by the MoD. When SAAB is selling 36 jets to others for $8+ billion, how are they going to meet the so-called $5BN demand?

This is just so tedious.

@PARIKRAMA

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## Immortan.Joe

Taygibay said:


> There was an attack. Check here people :
> 
> Pakistan Defence Forum is back online.
> 
> Good day all, Tay.




With due respect @Taygibay , there was no cyber attack.

This forum is in process of shifting servers and data was lost due to incompetency of PDF's technical team. Even Webmaster did an status update that he has data on old server and would try to get it back.


DDoS attacks do not delete data. Pakistanis have this habit of blaming India even if their wives do not become pregnant.


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## Ankit Kumar 002

Abingdonboy said:


> This article os all over the place:
> 
> _The Indian side is expecting that through negotiations, it will manage to strike a deal at* $7 billion* for 36 machines._
> 
> 
> _---------_
> 
> A few lines later:
> 
> 
> _“India is pushing for the deal to close between* $5-6 billion* for 36 aircraft and it should be inclusive of all the support and maintenance infrastructure,” an official revealed.
> 
> ---------
> _
> Most of what is being said is either blatently untrue or is very old news but all becomes clear:
> 
> _Meanwhile, Swedish defence major Saab AB has offered to manufacture its * fifth-generation Gripen *fighter aircraft here with technology transfer to India in a renewed bid for a pie in the multi-billion dollar Indian Air Force (IAF) modernisation plan and in compliance with Prime Minister initiative.
> Saab, which lost in the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender in 2011 — won by French firm Dassault Aviation SA — anticipates that the IAF will need more than the 36 Rafale fighter jets that India is buying from France to beef up its depleting fleet. The Swedish company is not only offering to set up a base here, but also help in development of aerospace capability for the next 100 years, along with partnership in developing the next version of the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas and the advanced medium combat aircraft, being developed and designed by the Aeronautical Development Agency.
> 
> Recently, Saab (India) chief Jan Widerstrom said the company is also ready to stick by New Delhi’s negative list — as was made clear by defence minister Manohar Parrikar — when it comes to exporting fighter aircraft from India.
> _
> 
> ---------
> About 1/3rd of this article is nothing but idiotic promotion for the Gripen.
> 
> This idiot is all too eager to earn his paycheck from his Swedish masters.
> 
> 
> + we've gone from absurd projections of the quoted cost by Dassault ($12 billion+) to absurd price demands by the MoD. When SAAB is selling 36 jets to others for $8+ billion, how are they going to meet the so-called $5BN demand?
> 
> This is just so tedious.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA



I personally feel pushing the price further down to 5-6 billion mark is not possible . Egypt got 24 Rafales along with a stealth frigate with weapons and support for both in 5.9 Billion dollars. 

I I Asad that the frigate cost 0.9 billion USD, then 5 billion for 24 Rafales. 

If I use the same ratio, its 7.5 Billion USD for 36 Rafales. And if we are getting it all at 7 billion USD, its a good deal. 

I don't think we will yield any result from further price negotiations, 7 billion is a fair price...

And we should remember that Dassault will not sell at a Loss. 

As for the article. Only F18 fits Indian Airforces needs, that too if USA acts like Russia while selling it+ keeps the servicing like USA. REST DO NOT FIT IN . I ignore these paid news...

All I got 2 months before is that the main contention is terms and conditions for the follow on which will be made here.... Parikkar doesn't want to go for the first 36 very fast while ignoring the later batch, without which the Rafales will be useless. The concerns are that if India goes ahead with the initial 36 without discussing and freezing the terms for the 2nd follow on ones, French might milk us for the follow on ones.....

Atleast this is what the things were when republic day happened.

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## Taygibay

Immortan.Joe said:


> With due respect @Taygibay , there was no cyber attack.



Well, one way or another, we lost a month of small talk and it had to be explained to those surprised.
And, there are other types of cyber attacks apart from DDOS that do cause data loss.
LOL and I'll smugly sip my coffee in lieu of answer to your possibly factual reproaches. 





Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> The concerns are that if India goes ahead with the initial 36 without discussing and freezing the terms for the 2nd follow on ones, French might milk us for the follow on ones.....



I don't think that's to be feared from Trappier's words at the 2015 results question and answers.
Dassault and the rest of the Rafale GIE want both linked so that finally, costly choices can be spread,
a sticking point in one term being balanced by an easy one in the second or vice versa.

Example : IAF wants a non-desi part integrated, say Israeli. This is a one-off cost to Dassault. You pay.
But if you buy 126-200+ Rafales under MII, it is spread over all units and becomes a small percentage.

If the deals are entirely segregated, that cost may block things by tipping the tab over Indian maximum.

Fast and fluid is the spring torrent that brings life to the immemorial immobile dry plain? ***
Don't be a dam?

Good day all, Tay.

*** The Yank in me would translate that poem thus : - Let's be adaptable, creative and get the job done!

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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> I don't think that's to be feared from Trappier's words at the 2015 results question and answers.
> Dassault and the rest of the Rafale GIE want both linked so that finally, costly choices can be spread,
> a sticking point in one term being balanced by an easy one in the second or vice versa.
> 
> Example : IAF wants a non-desi part integrated, say Israeli. This is a one-off cost to Dassault. You pay.
> But if you buy 126-200+ Rafales under MII, it is spread over all units and becomes a small percentage.
> 
> If the deals are entirely segregated, that cost may block things by tipping the tab over Indian maximum.
> 
> Fast and fluid is the spring torrent that brings life to the immemorial immobile dry plain? ***
> Don't be a dam?
> 
> Good day all, Tay.
> 
> *** The Yank in me would translate that poem thus : - Let's be adaptable, creative and get the job done!


Exactly this! The most unfathomable part about all this drama is the seeming de-linking of the 36 off the shelf purchase and the follow-on 90 jets to be made in India. I mean the most logical (yes yes I hear you now- this is India, logic be damned) thing would be to have a single type for about 15 billion different reasons (commonality of training, spares, procedures and simplifcation of almost everything) just being a part of this.

I mean, no one in the media seems to be questioning why exactly, it is being percieved, that this defence minister (who has zero cabinet experience and zero defence exposure) is going for two different types of fighter, they are just mindly parroting each other (who planted that intial seed is an interesting point to ponder). 


If 1 Rafale is bought then you might as well buy 126, there is no point in half measures- all or nothing.

But alas, I have lost all faith in Parrikar to do the sensible thing, Modi is the guy for that I hope he calls his DM out on this needless circus whilst we are still young.

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## Spectre

Abingdonboy said:


> Exactly this! The most unfathomable part about all this drama is the seeming de-linking of the 36 off the shelf purchase and the follow-on 90 jets to be made in India. I mean the most logical (yes yes I hear you now- this is India, logic be damned) thing would be to have a single type for about 15 billion different reasons (commonality of training, spares, procedures and simplifcation of almost everything) just being a part of this.
> 
> I mean, no one in the media seems to be questioning why exactly, it is being percieved, that this defence minister (who has zero cabinet experience and zero defence exposure) is going for two different types of fighter, they are just mindly parroting each other (who planted that intial seed is an interesting point to ponder).
> 
> 
> If 1 Rafale is bought then you might as well buy 126, there is no point in half measures- all or nothing.
> 
> But alas, I have lost all faith in Parrikar to do the sensible thing, Modi is the guy for that I hope he calls his DM out on this needless circus whilst we are still young.



two words...price discovery. The deal with egyptians and qatar cannot be the benchmark and that is what dassault i is insisting on.


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## Abingdonboy

Spectre said:


> two words...price discovery. The deal with egyptians and qatar cannot be the benchmark and that is what dassault i is insisting on.


I'm skeptical on this fro a number of reasons but if this is the case then don't by a single Rafale, there's no sense in buying two different MMRCAs.

Parrikar is a typical bhanyia, busy bean counting but unable to see the bigger picture. With the Rafale you can fullfil the needs of the Indian industry, IAF, IN and SFC as well as keeping your sovereignty intact (which you can't really put a price on). The price descrepency really is not as large as some are making out- it certainly isn't in the billions and thus both sides are being very pedantic.

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## Spectre

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm skeptical on this fro a number of reasons but if this is the case then don't by a single Rafale, there's no sense in buying two different MMRCAs.
> 
> Parrikar is a typical bhanyia, busy bean counting but unable to see the bigger picture. With the Rafale you can fullfil the needs of the Indian industry, IAF, IN and SFC as well as keeping your sovereignty intact (which you can't really put a price on). The price descrepency really is not as large as some are making out- it certainly isn't in the billions and thus both sides are being very pedantic.



Be whatever the case, unless their is a backroom plan to consciously delay and obfuscate so as to force France to withdraw the offer and thus avoid penalties, India should sign and close the deal. I agree buying only 36 will be a blunder.

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## PARIKRAMA

long day.. just reached home.. but straight to the PC to type good news...

Deal is done.. final papers exchanged..
its officially 36 flyaway
90 make in India tranche 1
Final numbers would be 300 Rafales with 100+ Rafale Ms
The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..
Expect deal announcement soon..
The 18s was pitted very aggressively but a question was asked what besides the jet and cooperation on other projects, the answer was inconclusive.
The deal papers were exchanged in the meeting of March 29,2016.
Bankers are confirmed...
The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities
Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.
LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
Officially certain news will be out soon..but before that expect a flurry of anti Rafale media reports
Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..

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## AugenBlick

PARIKRAMA said:


> long day.. just reached home.. but straight to the PC to type good news...
> 
> Deal is done.. final papers exchanged..
> its officially 36 flyaway
> 90 make in India tranche 1
> Final numbers would be 300 Rafales with 100+ Rafale Ms
> The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..
> Expect deal announcement soon..
> The 18s was pitted very aggressively but a question was asked what besides the jet and cooperation on other projects, the answer was inconclusive.
> The deal papers were exchanged in the meeting of March 29,2016.
> Bankers are confirmed...
> The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities
> Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.
> LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
> Officially certain news will be out soon..but before that expect a flurry of anti Rafale media reports
> Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..


I am going to blow a lot of money on the Pâtisserie ... this better be true... also 






@Abingdonboy



PARIKRAMA said:


> long day.. just reached home.. but straight to the PC to type good news...
> 
> Deal is done.. final papers exchanged..
> its officially 36 flyaway
> 90 make in India tranche 1
> Final numbers would be 300 Rafales with 100+ Rafale Ms
> The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..
> Expect deal announcement soon..
> The 18s was pitted very aggressively but a question was asked what besides the jet and cooperation on other projects, the answer was inconclusive.
> The deal papers were exchanged in the meeting of March 29,2016.
> Bankers are confirmed...
> The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities
> Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.
> LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
> Officially certain news will be out soon..but before that expect a flurry of anti Rafale media reports
> Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..


Now a few questions/speculations

*Did Sarkozi play a role in getting everyone together? 

*2 N-projects = N-sub + N-Carrier  ???

* FCUK the US. 

Edit:
Bro please get info on how much help we will get on AMCA. (except ofcourse the expertise we acquire through manufacturing )

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> long day.. just reached home.. but straight to the PC to type good news...
> 
> Deal is done.. final papers exchanged..
> its officially 36 flyaway
> 90 make in India tranche 1
> Final numbers would be 300 Rafales with 100+ Rafale Ms
> The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..
> Expect deal announcement soon..
> The 18s was pitted very aggressively but a question was asked what besides the jet and cooperation on other projects, the answer was inconclusive.
> The deal papers were exchanged in the meeting of March 29,2016.
> Bankers are confirmed...
> The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities
> Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.
> LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
> Officially certain news will be out soon..but before that expect a flurry of anti Rafale media reports
> Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..



I LOVE you SO MUCH

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## AugenBlick

Congratulations

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> long day.. just reached home.. but straight to the PC to type good news...
> 
> Deal is done.. final papers exchanged..
> its officially 36 flyaway
> 90 make in India tranche 1
> Final numbers would be 300 Rafales with 100+ Rafale Ms
> The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..
> Expect deal announcement soon..
> The 18s was pitted very aggressively but a question was asked what besides the jet and cooperation on other projects, the answer was inconclusive.
> The deal papers were exchanged in the meeting of March 29,2016.
> Bankers are confirmed...
> The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities
> Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.
> LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
> Officially certain news will be out soon..but before that expect a flurry of anti Rafale media reports
> Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..


I'm not going to get my hopes up too much........just yet















@Stephen Cohen

+ Although @PARIKRAMA what you have said does fit in very well with something I learned this morning 



AugenBlick said:


> Congratulations

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## Spectre

PARIKRAMA said:


> long day.. just reached home.. but straight to the PC to type good news...
> 
> Deal is done.. final papers exchanged..
> its officially 36 flyaway
> 90 make in India tranche 1
> Final numbers would be 300 Rafales with 100+ Rafale Ms
> The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..
> Expect deal announcement soon..
> The 18s was pitted very aggressively but a question was asked what besides the jet and cooperation on other projects, the answer was inconclusive.
> The deal papers were exchanged in the meeting of March 29,2016.
> Bankers are confirmed...
> The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities
> Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.
> LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
> Officially certain news will be out soon..but before that expect a flurry of anti Rafale media reports
> Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..



As I said yesterday, 36+18 is done. Regarding the 90 or X number involving MII there is no decision as of yet.


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## Abingdonboy

AugenBlick said:


> * FCUK the US.


Seconded



PARIKRAMA said:


> The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..


For the flyaways 36 for the IAF and 18 for the IN?



PARIKRAMA said:


> The first 36 flyaway,* last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities*


How will what work bro?Delivered to India and then enter Indian workshops for minor modifications and if so what modifcations are we talking about?



PARIKRAMA said:


> Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.


Hmmm, that's how most strategic deals go but in this instance expect some SERIOUS heat from the media who will jump straight to "we got ripped off" either out of ignorance or some more nerfarious motives.



PARIKRAMA said:


> LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.


I knew something was going to happen with L&T and nuclear tech after the Jaitpur announcement and the ToT coming (to L&T) for that.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..


It's going to have to be Hollande himself, surely?

@Taygibay @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN 


Again, not getting ahead of myself nor am I counting chickens before they hatch.








Spectre said:


> As I said yesterday, 36+18 is done. Regarding the 90 or X number involving MII there is no decision as of yet.


Again, with the off the shelf Rafale deal set in stone if this GoI goes for anything other than the Rafale for the follow-on deal then they are utter, utter fools. But once again, I will state that Dassualt is the ONLY OEM who has actually presented the MOF with a detailed and viable model for making 90+ MMRCA in India and this was confirmed by the CEO of Dassault himself- no one else, not even the much hyped Boeing is anywhere near this stage. The DM was/is using them as a bargaining chip and little more. The more one examines the Boeing/US offer the less attractive it gets. Now Carter has left India and nothing substantial has been signed whatsoever I think the writing is on the wall..

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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> Again, not getting ahead of myself nor am I counting chickens before they hatch.



But we do that any way ; Isnt it

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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> But we do that any way ; Isnt it

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> Seconded
> 
> 
> For the flyaways 36 for the IAF and 18 for the IN?
> 
> 
> How will what work bro?Delivered to India and then enter Indian workshops for minor modifications and if so what modifcations are we talking about?
> 
> 
> Hmmm, that's how most strategic deals go but in this instance expect some SERIOUS heat from the media who will jump straight to "we got ripped off" either out of ignorance or some more nerfarious motives.
> 
> 
> I knew something was going to happen with L&T and nuclear tech after the Jaitpur announcement and the ToT coming (to L&T) for that.
> 
> 
> It's going to have to be Hollande himself, surely?
> 
> @Taygibay @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN
> 
> 
> Again, not getting ahead of myself nor am I counting chickens before they hatch.



Rafale M was requested to be completely made in Merignac which we don't want.. So as a token gesture and keeping all folks pleased a very small number has to be ordered.. The idea mooted was using the follow on 18s for this purpose.. As of now IAF is on board this, but if a threat situation changes and need to expedite the Rafale M induction arise, the numbers may increase in Merignac.. But that scope is very less..

The flyaway last batch RAM and other absorbent material painting plus very small work will be in Indian line.. It's basically the post 90-95% finished product things which are requested to be done in order to also check the Indian line capabilities and testing..


Modification for Indian missiles will be done in India itself for the last batch.. RBE2 AESA not full but partially shared and will be available for any type of Missile integration as needed by India followed by due test and certification.

Media crying is expected.. Today itself a Saab article cane out after all US articles on teens.. Anyways not all contours can be divulged owing to multiple facets best kept away from public even if they make hue n cry.

LnT work is going ahead primarily in sub program.. Parallel construction of the 6 SSN and NG SSBN are being framed.. Aridhaman will float out by this year second half and it's follow on will be out in another few years.post which the bigger heavier boats comes in along with the SSNs.

The IAC2 will remain a test case to see how much USA walks the talk.. But DCNS is getting a serious look in that..

Prez Hollande may come or may not.. Probably will come for MII announcement.. Drian and Trappier would be here surely...interestingly a Doval hush hush meeting was scheduled around this or next week.. Something off the book for discrete discussion..

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## Spectre

Abingdonboy said:


> Seconded
> 
> 
> For the flyaways 36 for the IAF and 18 for the IN?
> 
> 
> How will what work bro?Delivered to India and then enter Indian workshops for minor modifications and if so what modifcations are we talking about?
> 
> 
> Hmmm, that's how most strategic deals go but in this instance expect some SERIOUS heat from the media who will jump straight to "we got ripped off" either out of ignorance or some more nerfarious motives.
> 
> 
> I knew something was going to happen with L&T and nuclear tech after the Jaitpur announcement and the ToT coming (to L&T) for that.
> 
> 
> It's going to have to be Hollande himself, surely?
> 
> @Taygibay @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN
> 
> 
> Again, not getting ahead of myself nor am I counting chickens before they hatch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, with the off the shelf Rafale deal set in stone if this GoI goes for anything other than the Rafale for the follow-on deal then they are utter, utter fools. But once again, I will state that Dassualt is the ONLY OEM who has actually presented the MOF with a detailed and viable model for making 90+ MMRCA in India and this was confirmed by the CEO of Dassault himself- no one else, not even the much hyped Boeing is anywhere near this stage. The DM was/is using them as a bargaining chip and little more. The more one examines the Boeing/US offer the less attractive it gets. Now Carter has left India and nothing substantial has been signed whatsoever I think the writing is on the wall..



I don't know and neither does anyone on the forum about what's the deal with MII component. There is a gag order in place which is understandable considering the interests involved and scope for external influences/bribary/manipulation. MoD is clearly keeping the cards very close to it's chest and there is minimal interference from PMO. PMO and by extension NSA was mostly interested in closing the 36+18 which was achieved after carter left as @PARIKRAMA said other things were contingent on that deal including the reputation.

IMHO Rafale should be the top option considering all pros and cons followed closely by Advanced Hornets since the 36+18 is closed. Personally I would have preferred that the Rafale deal was scrapped in totality and we could have gone with Advanced Hornets with an option for F-35. This would have synergised well with our LCA and AMCA.

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## Abingdonboy

Spectre said:


> Personally I would have preferred that the Rafale deal was scrapped in totality and we could have gone with Advanced Hornets with an option for F-35. *This would have synergised well with our LCA and AMCA*.


By "synergised" you mean "killed", right?

If one is truly interested in the AMCA being a success then Dassault is the way to go all day long, it isn't even a fair contest in that regard.

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## Blue Marlin

PARIKRAMA said:


> long day.. just reached home.. but straight to the PC to type good news...
> 
> Deal is done.. final papers exchanged..
> its officially 36 flyaway
> 90 make in India tranche 1
> Final numbers would be 300 Rafales with 100+ Rafale Ms
> The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..
> Expect deal announcement soon..
> The 18s was pitted very aggressively but a question was asked what besides the jet and cooperation on other projects, the answer was inconclusive.
> The deal papers were exchanged in the meeting of March 29,2016.
> Bankers are confirmed...
> The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities
> Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.
> LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
> Officially certain news will be out soon..but before that expect a flurry of anti Rafale media reports
> Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..


what's the total value of the contract for the 36 rafales?


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## Spectre

Blue Marlin said:


> what's the total value of the contract for the 36 rafales?



Same benchmark as Quatar and Egyptian deals on standalone basis. Goes without saying that accompanying packages are different.


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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Rafale M was requested to be completely made in Merignac which we don't want.. So as a token gesture and keeping all folks pleased a very small number has to be ordered.. The idea mooted was using the follow on 18s for this purpose.. As of now IAF is on board this, but if a threat situation changes and need to expedite the Rafale M induction arise, the numbers may increase in Merignac.. But that scope is very less..


Hmmm, I thought that was what you meant but it raises some interesting questions, namely- what are those Rafale-M for? The first of the 18 follow-ons wlll be in service by 2020, the IAC-2 won't be in service by then and neither will the follow-on IAC-1 class carrier. So these Rafale-M have to be for the IAC-1, correct?



PARIKRAMA said:


> Modification for Indian missiles will be done in India itself for the last batch.. RBE2 AESA not full but partially shared and will be available for any type of Missile integration as needed by India followed by due test and certification.


This is pretty groundbreaking in itself, India certainly wouldn't have got this from the Americans. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> The IAC2 will remain a test case to see how much USA walks the talk.. But DCNS is getting a serious look in that..


There is no better aircraft carrier industry in the world than the in the US; no one else even comes close, so this is a pretty solid bet by the IN.

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## Blue Marlin

Spectre said:


> Same benchmark as Quatar and Egyptian deals on standalone basis. Goes without saying that accompanying packages are different.


ok about 9 billion.

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## Spectre

Abingdonboy said:


> By "synergised" you mean "killed", right?
> 
> If one is truly interested in the AMCA being a success then Dassault is the way to go all day long, it isn't even a fair contest in that regard.



I meant what I said. India alone can do 75% of AMCA work given time and investments. Rest is contingent on US/Russian help.



Blue Marlin said:


> ok about 9 billion.



As I said standalone basis, cost is coming out to be ~80-90 million per jet. Rest is spares and support package, training, weapons package, 10 years maintenance package, integration cost for some of the subsystems and weapons, base and 50% ToT.

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## Abingdonboy

Spectre said:


> I meant what I said. India alone can do 75% of AMCA work given time and investments. Rest is contingent on US/Russian help.


US/Russian help? France has a world class aerospace industry and are at the leading edge of technology, they will be just as helpful and more reliable than either the Americans or Russians. The Russians have the FGFA project to be getting on with and the Americans have no interest in building up India's defence industry beyond a point (creating a F-35 rival certainly isn't something they are going to be interested in). France is the most natural partner for the AMCA.

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## Spectre

Abingdonboy said:


> US/Russian help? France has a world class aerospace industry and are at the leading edge of technology, they will be just as helpful and more reliable than either the Americans or Russians. The Russians have the FGFA project to be getting on with and the Americans have no interest in building up India's defence industry beyond a point (creating a F-35 rival certainly isn't something they are going to be interested in). France is the most natural partner for the AMCA.



What makes you think AMCA will be F-35 rival? The whole notion is laughable. Kindly consider the timelines involved. 

For some decades to come, India will always be 10-15 years behind US. By the time AMCA gets FOC, F-35 will be getting MLUs. Anyhow the current and upcoming crops are likely to be last gen fully manned fighters. Future Gens i.e. post 2060 will have autonomous or semi autonomous fighters.

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## Abingdonboy

Spectre said:


> What makes you think AMCA will be F-35 rival? The whole notion is laughable. Kindly consider the timelines involved.


1)The F-35 is nowhere near what it is cracked up to be (F-22 is the real deal however)
2) There are plenty of countries who have no current plans for 5th gen fighters who will be looking for next gen platforms by the time the AMCA is ready and the AMCA will have some comparative advantadges (to some countries) over the F-35. With F-18s/15s on offer some nations are still buying Gripens are they not? The world will be a very different place in 20 years. 



Spectre said:


> Anyhow the current and upcoming crops are likely to be last gen fully manned fighters. Future Gens i.e. post 2060 will have autonomous or semi autonomous fighters.


I don't think so, they said that about 5th gen fighters but 6th gen fighters are already being designed. I have no doubt UAS will play increasingly signifcant roles in aerial warfare but manned fighters will be around for much longer than we think.

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## C130

Abingdonboy said:


> 1)The F-35 is nowhere near what it is cracked up to be (F-22 is the real deal however)
> 2) There are plenty of countries who have no current plans for 5th gen fighters who will be looking for next gen platforms by the time the AMCA is ready and the AMCA will have some comparative advantadges (to some countries) over the F-35. With F-18s/15s on offer some nations are still buying Gripens are they not? The world will be a very different place in 20 years.
> 
> 
> I don't think so, they said that about 5th gen fighters but 6th gen fighters are already being designed. I have no doubt UAS will play increasingly signifcant roles in aerial warfare but manned fighters will be around for much longer than we think.




thing is F-35 is a reality while the AMCA is a fantasy for now . going by past India ambitious projects like Tejas,Kaveri, and Arjun the AMCA will be decades behind schedule and rely heavily on foreign technology.

by then the F-35 will have matured and the price to buy and fly will have gone down significantly.


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## Taygibay

Abingdonboy said:


> But alas, I have lost all faith in Parrikar to do the sensible thing, Modi is the guy for that I hope he calls his DM out on this needless circus whilst we are still young.



Ah! Slowly, some other Bharatis may get it that when I express doubts on MP as a politician
and think that Modi is a different, more complete beast, I'm not choosing differently than for my own.
It's a defendable opinion, that's all! The guy talks but doesn't deliver : politician / used car salesman.



Abingdonboy said:


> How will what work bro?Delivered to India and then enter Indian workshops for minor modifications and if so what modifcations are we talking about?





PARIKRAMA said:


> It's basically the post 90-95% finished product things which are requested to be done in order to also check the Indian line capabilities and testing..



Fine way to go! Get the work done in IAF maintenance. Then get perfection at finalizing products.
Later, get to build/assemble product! By which time you should have learned to design it yourself!
If that last didn't happen, ask questions!



PARIKRAMA said:


> Rafale M was requested to be completely made in Merignac which we don't want.. So as a token gesture and keeping all folks pleased a very small number has to be ordered.. The idea mooted was using the follow on 18s for this purpose.. As of now IAF is on board this, but if a threat situation changes and need to expedite the Rafale M induction arise, the numbers may increase in Merignac.. But that scope is very less..



I'll differ my friend. The token 18 options go to IN to prepare the future.
And are served last or later. By the time the full complement is bought,
present public opinion will have faded and getting 46 more direct from
France will be greeted as friendly instead of decried as squandering ...

IST is very used in such dealings, over decades at best but over governments regularly. 




Spectre said:


> I don't know and neither does anyone on the forum about what's the deal with MII component.



Shush, Fantomas! No one but God can talk for others. It's quite simple :
The MII component is alive and well or there's no deal, Sherlock!​Neither side can stomach the small deal alone, India less than France.



Spectre said:


> India alone can do 75% of AMCA work given time and investments



Yeah but even if you did not lack the dozen of trillions,
2 & a half millenium from now, it won't be cutting edge!



Abingdonboy said:


> they will be just as helpful and more reliable than either the Americans or Russians.



Considering the first share on the skimpy side with most
and that Russia uses French stuff on its airplanes already ...
that's a safe enough bet, huh? 



C130 said:


> thing is F-35 is a reality while the AMCA is a fantasy for now



Yeah, subtle difference though, or so it seems for many!
Despite all the disappointments, there will be an F-35?!?
Soon! ... Ah but here's that stretchable time again, what
does soon mean? USMC IOC? Done! Next IOC? AF 2016!

Soon for an AMCA fan depends on emotions : if he likes
AMCA soon is 2035, if he loves AMCA, it doesn't matter!
India will be there and waiting as always ...



Still all the best to all, Tay.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

The Great Rafale Saga has taught me to never take it done, because whenever we did it, it took another turn....

Today is Ramnavmi, I pray to god to shower some blessings upon IAF.

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## Immortan.Joe

Spectre said:


> What makes you think AMCA will be F-35 rival? The whole notion is laughable. Kindly consider the timelines involved.
> 
> For some decades to come, India will always be 10-15 years behind US. By the time AMCA gets FOC, F-35 will be getting MLUs. Anyhow the current and upcoming crops are likely to be last gen fully manned fighters. Future Gens i.e. post 2060 will have autonomous or semi autonomous fighters.




F-35 has a very long line of orders. Even if India orders F-35 today, it would start receiving F-35s only after 2025 (optimistically). So while first F-35s that have rolled off the assembly line may be receiving MLUs by the time AMCA gets FOC, the time difference between FOC of AMCA and F-35 being available to India would not be big. If India has started funding AMCA today, it would at-least have IOC by 2030.

This is what would make AMCA a competitor of F-35 in *INDIAN* defence market. This is the reason I think that US-MIC is not going to provide any substantial help for AMCA program.


And I do not think that there would be an autonomous main fighter Aircraft *ever*. In my opinion, military aircrafts would evolve on the lines of civilian aircrafts having an very advanced autopilot like system requiring only pilot supervision, but human element would always be present there as drones are difficult to control over long distances and would remain difficult to control forever as this difficulty arise from fundamental problems like radius of curvature of Earth, break in satellite coverage, signal attenuation in case of clutter, and problems with secure communication. Drones would be supplementary to manned aircraft, not replacement.

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## sathya

Looks like the deal is about to happen in days...

But we have heard it so many time, now it doesn't look anything reliable .

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## Stephen Cohen

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @Spectre @Taygibay 

*India-France Rafale deal could be finalised this month*

http://www.hindustantimes.com/mumba...-this-month/story-SroENpfdcii48p5gRI76OP.html

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> Hmmm, I thought that was what you meant but it raises some interesting questions, namely- what are those Rafale-M for? The first of the 18 follow-ons wlll be in service by 2020, the IAC-2 won't be in service by then and neither will the follow-on IAC-1 class carrier. So these Rafale-M have to be for the IAC-1, correct?



the exercising for Rafale M will happen later.. The idea is to first them get for a shore based training.. We have to set up like STOBAR SBTF in INS Hansa, Goa a similar SBTF for a catapult assisted launch have to be set up in a facility. These 18 Ms basically are planned for that specific purpose for training and start of building the squadrons needed for Vishal.

If the IAC1 will sport Rafale -M, then expect the entire 30+12-15= 42-45 contingent to be ordered from Merignac and placed in INS Hansa for the same purpose as i said before.

IMHO, the IAC1 should use Mig 29K as in INS Vikramaditya.. It makes more sense for the cost already incurred and also keep Russian side happy.. Beyond 2025 timeline, thats when the efficacy of Mig 29Ks should be coming down owing to marked improvement in naval variants across the globe including the Rafale F3R2 upgraded product line in Marine.


++++
Credit to @CNL-PN-AA in IDF for the Radio classique details and link..
Its an interview of Trappier and he said interesting things







http://indian defence.com/threads/mrca-updates-and-discussions.22159/page-1052#post-488185

and the link for Radio classique






http://www.radioclassique.fr/player...linvite-de-leconomie-2016-04-13-07-20-20.html

++
A big thank you to him for this link..

it follows earlier Trappier statement in results time where he said

_"Today there is price negotiation for the first 36 devices but the principal of our work is to prepare a further 90 aircraft order. (...) We try to make a genuine partnership with Indian industrialists to set up a policy of "make in India". beyond the traditional offsets, Dassault Aviation would settle in India with our partners Safran, Thales and part of our subcontractors. We seek Indian partners to manufacture in India. "_

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## sathya

PARIKRAMA said:


> long day.. just reached home.. but straight to the PC to type good news...
> 
> Deal is done.. final papers exchanged..
> its officially 36 flyaway
> 90 make in India tranche 1
> Final numbers would be 300 Rafales with 100+ Rafale Ms
> The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..
> Expect deal announcement soon..
> The 18s was pitted very aggressively but a question was asked what besides the jet and cooperation on other projects, the answer was inconclusive.
> The deal papers were exchanged in the meeting of March 29,2016.
> Bankers are confirmed...
> The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities
> Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.
> LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
> Officially certain news will be out soon..but before that expect a flurry of anti Rafale media reports
> Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..



 Sorry for reading your post only now...
I always liked your Infos , whether that happens or changes..

Only wanted info that s occupying my mind , who is going to make in India ? Reliance ?
I pray to god , consortium of companies get to make parts.. Lead integrator as TATA.

On the hind sight , who is taking bigger risk with reliance , India or France ?
Reliance wouldn't mind Applying same technology on anything they get their hands on isn't it ?

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## Spectre

Taygibay said:


> Ah! Slowly, some other Bharatis may get it that when I express doubts on MP as a politician
> and think that Modi is a different more complete beast, I'm not choosing differently than for my own.
> It's a defendable opinion, that's all! The guy talks but doesn't deliver : politician / used car salesman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fine way to go! Get the work done in IAF maintenance. Then get perfection at finalizing products.
> Later, get to build/assemble product! By which time you should have learned to design it yourself!
> If that last didn't happen, ask questions!
> 
> 
> 
> I'll differ my friend. The token 18 options go to IN to prepare the future.
> And are served last or later. By the time the full complement is bought,
> present public opinion will have faded and getting 46 more direct from
> France will be greeted as friendly instead of decried as squandering ...
> 
> IST is very used in such dealings, over decades at best but over governments regularly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shush, Fantomas! No one but God can talk for others. It's quite simple :
> The MII component is alive and well or there's no deal, Sherlock!​Neither side can stomach the small deal alone, India less than France.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah but even if you did not lack the dozen of trillions,
> 2 & a half millenium from now, it won't be cutting edge!
> 
> 
> 
> Considering the first share on the skimpy side with most
> and that Russia uses French stuff on its airplanes already ...
> that's a safe enough bet, huh?
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, subtle difference though, or so it seems for many!
> Despite all the disappointments, there will be an F-35?!?
> Soon! ... Ah but here's that stretchable time again, what
> does soon mean? USMC IOC? Done! Next IOC? AF 2016!
> 
> Soon for an AMCA fan depends on emotions : if he likes
> AMCA soon is 2035, if he loves AMCA, it doesn't matter!
> India will be there and waiting as always ...
> 
> 
> 
> Still all the best to all, Tay.



1. Tay, DA should step up their game, we are in the home stretch and frankly it's DA's race to loose. There is 40% mark-up which can be be bought down to 20% and DA will enjoy decades of unfettered access to gravy train.

2. GoI does not operate in silos atleast the present set up doesn't, how can you miss the obvious good cop - bad cop act!

3. AMCA is the twinkle in the eye, MII component will finalized keeping in mind the transfers to AMCA. Screwdriver jobs will not be acceptable - DA can ill afford to part with crown jewels while Boing and LM have plenty on the plate to share hence my partiality to them.

@PARIKRAMA and @Abingdonboy Yeh Dil Mange More! India looses leverage when it signs the current deal, hence the hectic and heartbreaking negotiations.

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## Stephen Cohen

Spectre said:


> @PARIKRAMA and @Abingdonboy Yeh Dil Mange More! India looses leverage when it signs the current deal, hence the hectic and heartbreaking negotiations.



What happens when the French finally call India's bluff with regard to US planes

Who gets the flak then or rather has to " eat crow " 
Modi ; Parrikar ; the Bureaucracy; the media or the Fan boys

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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> What happens when the French finally call India's bluff with regard to US planes
> 
> Who gets the flak then or rather has to " eat crow "
> Modi ; Parrikar ; the Bureaucracy; the media or the Fan boys


no one in French side or Indian side .. its part of carrot and stick policy for USA.. a tit for tat for what they did all these years with us

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> the exercising for Rafale M will happen later.. The idea is to first them get for a shore based training.. We have to set up like STOBAR SBTF in INS Hansa, Goa a similar SBTF for a catapult assisted launch have to be set up in a facility. These 18 Ms basically are planned for that specific purpose for training and start of building the squadrons needed for Vishal.


That makes sense, I guess those first Rafale-Ms will form a IFTU whilst the IAC-2 is under construction- the IN do have a lot to master vis a vis the Rafale-M and CATOBAR operations. 



Spectre said:


> 1. Tay, DA should step up their game, we are in the home stretch and frankly it's DA's race to loose. There is 40% mark-up which can be be bought down to 20% and DA will enjoy decades of unfettered access to gravy train.
> 
> 2. GoI does not operate in silos atleast the present set up doesn't, how can you miss the obvious good cop - bad cop act!
> 
> 3. AMCA is the twinkle in the eye, MII component will finalized keeping in mind the transfers to AMCA. Screwdriver jobs will not be acceptable - DA can ill afford to part with crown jewels while Boing and LM have plenty on the plate to share hence my partiality to them.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA and @Abingdonboy Yeh Dil Mange More! India looses leverage when it signs the current deal, hence the hectic and heartbreaking negotiations.


I agree with DA needing to appreciate the potential of this deal for themselves and it would be a sound strategic decsion to comprimise now in order to secure the Indian market- once they have their foot in the door they are set for the next 40 years. I think it would be wrong to treat India just like any other nation, the scales involved and where India is heading is very very unique.

However, I think it is almost laughable to say the US has more to offer India as far as the AMCA goes, they may very well have certain tech that is unmatched but do you think they are going to transfer that to India? Boeing and LM are in no position to make any offers, they are entirely dependant on USG clearances and we all know how forthcoming (or not) they have been thus far (ToT on the Raven mini UAV is about the sum total of their much vaunted "strategic partnership" with India thus far). As such, Dassualt and France's aerospace industry is FAR more attractive considering India's strategic aims and where India stands on the geopolitical stage. The US will just mess India around and the Russians are already in that position.



Stephen Cohen said:


> What happens when the French finally call India's bluff with regard to US planes
> 
> Who gets the flak then or rather has to " eat crow "
> Modi ; Parrikar ; the Bureaucracy; the media or the Fan boys


It's not going to get to that stagem it is in both Indian and French interests to secure the Rafale deal. I don't think France is going to call anyone's bluff, not with this kind of sums involved.

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## sathya

PARIKRAMA said:


> no one in French side or Indian side .. its part of carrot and stick policy for USA.. a tit for tat for what they did all these years with us




We are still looking USA for engines.., 
And other one of the kind weapons ..
US would the get deals for tejas, jaguar engines, not sure about AMCA.. may be..

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## Abingdonboy

sathya said:


> We are still looking USA for engines..,
> And other one of the kind weapons ..
> US would the get deals for tejas, jaguar engines, not sure about AMCA.. may be..


The Indian market is large enough to satisfy everyone.

As for engines, if this Rafale deal is clinched and in the scale one is talking about (200+) the ADA had better consider fitting uprated M88s in the AMCA, it would be foolish to puruse the F414.

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## sathya

Abingdonboy said:


> The Indian market is large enough to satisfy everyone.
> 
> As for engines, if this Rafale deal is clinched and in the scale one is talking about (200+) the ADA had better consider fitting uprated M88s in the AMCA, it would be foolish to puruse the F414.



It would be better if we can get M88 even for tejas mk2 if possible, now that it's far away -post 2020.. after mk1A.
We did try with Snecma for tejas, which for reasons unknown, didn't go well.
Hopefully after rafale deal things turn around.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> The Indian market is large enough to satisfy everyone.
> 
> As for engines, if this Rafale deal is clinched and in the scale one is talking about (200+) the ADA had better consider fitting uprated M88s in the AMCA, it would be foolish to puruse the F414.


The M88 family is designed to fit with a thrust between 7,5 T and 11 T. And SNECMA already have proposed to use the M-88 core in the Kaveri engine to fix its problems.

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## Abingdonboy

sathya said:


> It would be better if we can get M88 even for tejas mk2 if possible, now that it's far away -post 2020.. after mk1A.
> We did try with Snecma for tejas, which for reasons unknown, didn't go well.
> Hopefully after rafale deal things turn around.


This would be ideal and would make the LCA a far more attractive proposition for both the IAF and the international market.

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## PARIKRAMA

potentially engine offers are going to change beyond 414 family....

On one side is M88 family which has a vast array of engine solutions and a potential to go beyond also based on specific needs and financing... its one the families which can be upgraded further.. something you wont be able to do much with 414 EPE.

on other side, i am also having a strong feeling that if VSTOL LSA concept proves which i feel it will then there is a good chance of EJ230 engine and its family also a potentially good choice.

what i would love to see is perhaps a uprated 10-11T engine of M88 fitted in LCA to check if its possible.. one issue i see is the air intake.. so perhaps the MK2 variant or perhaps even a newer better version of MK1A can become a good test bench.. something which i believe is also possible with EJ230 family...

In short, if we want to shake USA, we can do it surely.. we just needs to have balls to go through the entire thing.. i am sure when we do something like that DTII will have 414 EPE blue print and whole manufacturing given to us as a carrot.. we have to be smart to understand if its ok to accept it or bargain something even more strategic...

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## zebra7

sathya said:


> It would be better if we can get M88 even for tejas mk2 if possible, now that it's far away -post 2020.. after mk1A.
> We did try with Snecma for tejas, which for reasons unknown, didn't go well.
> Hopefully after rafale deal things turn around.



Changing the engine, is not so easy like a plug and play usb device.
First the Airintake nozzle have to be redesign to supplement the desired pressure and air volume for the optimal thrust output. Second, the hydraullics, pipelines, pumbs, the C.G of the aircraft due to change of wt. all have to worked out will full set of aerial test and validation. The FCS have to be reprogrammed, and validated with full testing.

Take an example of simple change of INS, a navigation system, in LCA Tejas, which makes the programming of the software of the mission and flight computers, of hundereds of lines, changing the parameters, and that causes 6 month delay.

PS the airframe of the plane is designed around a powerplant, not the other way around.

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## sathya

zebra7 said:


> Changing the engine, is not so easy like a plug and play usb device.
> First the Airintake nozzle have to be redesign to supplement the desired pressure and air volume for the optimal thrust output. Second, the hydraullics, pipelines, pumbs, the C.G of the aircraft due to change of wt. all have to worked out will full set of aerial test and validation. The FCS have to be reprogrammed, and validated with full testing.
> 
> Take an example of simple change of INS, a navigation system, in LCA Tejas, which makes the programming of the software of the mission and flight computers, of hundereds of lines, changing the parameters, and that causes 6 month delay.
> 
> PS the airframe of the plane is designed around a powerplant, not the other way around.



Anyways for mk2 we are going to change to GE414 from 404, redesign air intake and lot other things
Since France is said to help with undercarriage, air intake etc, M88 also makes sense ?

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## zebra7

sathya said:


> We are still looking USA for engines..,
> And other one of the kind weapons ..
> US would the get deals for tejas, jaguar engines, not sure about AMCA.. may be..



Well, that's why a national effort for the indigenous Turbo fan engine is a must. Good thing our GTRE guys are confident that, they have solved the puzzle to build the turbo fan engine, and they are still waiting for the Supersonic test bed MIG-29 of IAF. Atleast for the organisation like GTRE, national test beds like Subsonic and supersonic test bed and a dedicated airport is needed to test the turbofan, and various LRU's.



sathya said:


> Anyways for mk2 we are going to change to GE414 from 404, redesign air intake and lot other things
> Since France is said to help with undercarriage, air intake etc, M88 also makes sense ?



1. MK-2 is nothing but the Naval version of LCA Tejas MK-1.
2. Higher thrust from F414 is needed for the carrier operation, because LCA won't be able to airborne with substantial load from the ski jump deck of the carrier.
3. Lca Tejas, whether MK-1 or MK-2 air intake was designed around the Kaveri Specs aka hiegher airintake pressure but it was never redesigned rather patched by the ADA by opening few intake ports to reduce the pressure, and in case of MK-2 increasing the Airinlet opening few cm. When we are talking about the airintake nozzle, that includes the whole nozzle including the Y duct, and not the external opening what you see in the picture.
4. Kaveri was delinked from the LCA project only but the development continues. Kaveri is only the proof of technology, the real engine will now be build on the technology build or developed with the Kaveri, and should be ready (reliable enough) for the mass production around 2024-25.
5. Problem with the Naval LCA is that being a single engine, the LCA didn't have the keel below, which strengthen the stucture, and needed to strengthen to take the load, pressure of the controlled crash landing during the carrier operation.
6. M88 (Snerma) and Dassault makes sense because, India have a secret project called AURA, the must needed part of the 5th Generation Air Warfare, and French have there own Nueron. No OEM responded for the RFI issued by the ADA for the development of the stealth USAV project, and it could be worked out with the french, in the deal of the Rafale.

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## sathya

zebra7 said:


> Well, that's why a national effort for the indigenous Turbo fan engine is a must. Good thing our GTRE guys are confident that, they have solved the puzzle to build the turbo fan engine, and they are still waiting for the Supersonic test bed MIG-29 of IAF. Atleast for the organisation like GTRE, national test beds like Subsonic and supersonic test bed and a dedicated airport is needed to test the turbofan, and various LRU's.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. MK-2 is nothing but the Naval version of LCA Tejas MK-1.
> 2. Higher thrust from F414 is needed for the carrier operation, because LCA won't be able to airborne with substantial load from the ski jump deck of the carrier.
> 3. Lca Tejas, whether MK-1 or MK-2 air intake was designed around the Kaveri Specs aka hiegher airintake pressure but it was never redesigned rather patched by the ADA by opening few intake ports to reduce the pressure, and in case of MK-2 increasing the Airinlet opening few cm. When we are talking about the airintake nozzle, that includes the whole nozzle including the Y duct, and not the external opening what you see in the picture.
> 4. Kaveri was delinked from the LCA project only but the development continues. Kaveri is only the proof of technology, the real engine will now be build on the technology build or developed with the Kaveri, and should be ready (reliable enough) for the mass production around 2024-25.
> 5. Problem with the Naval LCA is that being a single engine, the LCA didn't have the keel below, which strengthen the stucture, and needed to strengthen to take the load, pressure of the controlled crash landing during the carrier operation.
> 6. M88 (Snerma) and Dassault makes sense because, India have a secret project called AURA, the must needed part of the 5th Generation Air Warfare, and French have there own Nueron. No OEM responded for the RFI issued by the ADA for the development of the stealth USAV project, and it could be worked out with the french, in the deal of the Rafale.



I am totally fine with US engines..

My only concern was our indigenous fighter shouldn't be at the risk of sanctions .

Purpose of indigenous fighter would be lost, if it gets grounded because of sanctions.

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## Taygibay

Spectre said:


> AMCA is the twinkle in the eye, MII component will finalized keeping in mind the transfers to AMCA. Screwdriver jobs will not be acceptable - DA can ill afford to part with crown jewels while Boing and LM have plenty on the plate to share hence my partiality to them.



On your step up thing, I repeat : Dassault will concentrate on Rafale MII.
It's best for both that they do!

On your good cop bad cop, yes, of course it is obvious but beyond scheme
are personalities. I could explain in details but just know that I have been
part of politics and a board and can spot talent reasonably. The guy is not
a top player in any case.


On that quote : I still believe India should not do everything with France for
reasons of autonomy / independence, reliability all covered by diff. sourcing.
BUT I disagree with your reasoning : Dassault led the nEUROn exactly to
show its project mastery applied to international programs. But all partners
in that endeavour were selected because they could tackle their part alone.
Swedes and Italians apart, CASA, RUAG and HAI each played on its forte
to sub-produce an essential segment. There was little if no risk on tech.
New design, safe industrialization, crafty management made it work.
How is that not what you claim? Well, I'll tell you ... there is no RUAG in India!

So I repeat, Dassault will work on future projects with development to boot
because it is what they do and are in fact good at. Education as in teaching ...
not so much!
As for screwdriver jobs, it's an image, past its use by now IMHoO. If you
don't see the value in JVs which are brought to Western standards of work
with a culture of achievement, I can't usefully explain further. Cultural adap-
tation will run both ways or it won't succeed. But getting to home standards
by those JVs will raise a whole lot of workers that have the right mindset
to screw any driver you want!

The way collaboration happens depends on age of parties, industrial-wise.

6 y-o kid : _Daddy, help me with my paper plane!_ A. -_Dad is busy, darling!_
but Dad will holler at the 16 y-o : __Hey, come here and give me a hand._

And it's the same dad and kid in both cases too. It's a matter of stages of life.

Another Dad may be great with young ones less, with young adults!
Face reality and get the best out of the Dad you have?
We don't choose our family.

Anyway, gotta go riding, have a great day man, Tay.

P.S. At Stephen, the price was wrong in that article but thnx for tag nonetheless.

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## BON PLAN

Spectre said:


> two words...price discovery. The deal with egyptians and qatar cannot be the benchmark and that is what dassault i is insisting on.


Absolutely.
Terms of trainings, supports, spares, number of air bases to accomodate are not same.



PARIKRAMA said:


> LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.


Subs and Carrier I think.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Rafale M was requested to be completely made in Merignac which we don't want.. So as a token gesture and keeping all folks pleased a very small number has to be ordered.. The idea mooted was using the follow on 18s for this purpose.. As of now IAF is on board this, but if a threat situation changes and need to expedite the Rafale M induction arise, the numbers may increase in Merignac.. But that scope is very less..
> 
> The flyaway last batch RAM and other absorbent material painting plus very small work will be in Indian line.. It's basically the post 90-95% finished product things which are requested to be done in order to also check the Indian line capabilities and testing..
> 
> 
> Modification for Indian missiles will be done in India itself for the last batch.. RBE2 AESA not full but partially shared and will be available for any type of Missile integration as needed by India followed by due test and certification.
> 
> Media crying is expected.. Today itself a Saab article cane out after all US articles on teens.. Anyways not all contours can be divulged owing to multiple facets best kept away from public even if they make hue n cry.
> 
> LnT work is going ahead primarily in sub program.. Parallel construction of the 6 SSN and NG SSBN are being framed.. Aridhaman will float out by this year second half and it's follow on will be out in another few years.post which the bigger heavier boats comes in along with the SSNs.
> 
> The IAC2 will remain a test case to see how much USA walks the talk.. But DCNS is getting a serious look in that..
> 
> Prez Hollande may come or may not.. Probably will come for MII announcement.. Drian and Trappier would be here surely...interestingly a Doval hush hush meeting was scheduled around this or next week.. Something off the book for discrete discussion..


If you can make air force Rafale, you can make Marine one. Just few small things are differents. But if you are in a hurry.... may be Merignac line can help.

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## PARIKRAMA

BON PLAN said:


> Subs and Carrier I think.


subs - SSN and NG SSBN

Next Gen bcz present Arihant class of 3 subs are baby boomers..The next one will sport 12-16 VLS silos with the real deal of 12m length 2m width, 1 tonne warhead with 3 MIRV (200kt 270kg each) + possibly 2-3 Dummies in a flower shape.
Thats also the one which will sport the Brahmos NG LACM/AShM fired from torpedo tubes.



BON PLAN said:


> If you can make air force Rafale, you can make Marine one. Just few small things are differents. But if you are in a hurry.... may be Merignac line can help.



Thats the idea quicker induction.


+++

tagging @Abingdonboy too

Vstol says Rafale M may be there in IAC1. If it happens then surely 42-45 will be ordered from merignac as IAC1 will come by Dec 06,2019..

so effectively in Merignac - 36+18+ 27 (45-18) = 81 or may be fully 36+18+45 = 99

thus there should not be any surprise here..

If Merignac gets 100 jets, then multiply it with 3+ minimum and Indian line will get 300+ jets....

simply
IAC1 45 (30 jets on deck)
IAC1 follow on - 2 nos - (36 jets on deck) - 100
IAC2 - 1 numbers - 54 jets
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rafale M market - 45+100+54 - 199
Merignac line for Rafale M - 45+18 = 63
Indian Line for Rafale M= 136 Jets

IAF need 190 jets
------------------------------------------

Indian line potential - 326 jets

I am not considering IAC2 second ship but if such a ship is constructed parallely add another 54 jets either in Merignac or in India Or it may sport AMCA also if its not a parallel construction.

The important factor is the cost part when such a deal works out over time and how much localisation actually brings in benefits to MIC, skill development and cost reduction..

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## Didact

PARIKRAMA said:


> subs - SSN and NG SSBN
> 
> Next Gen bcz present Arihant class of 3 subs are baby boomers..The next one will sport 12-16 VLS silos with the real deal of 12m length 2m width, 1 tonne warhead with 3 MIRV (200kt 270kg each) + possibly 2-3 Dummies in a flower shape.
> Thats also the one which will sport the Brahmos NG LACM/AShM fired from torpedo tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats the idea quicker induction.
> 
> 
> +++
> 
> tagging @Abingdonboy too
> 
> Vstol says Rafale M may be there in IAC1. If it happens then surely 42-45 will be ordered from merignac as IAC1 will come by Dec 06,2019..
> 
> so effectively in Merignac - 36+18+ 27 (45-18) = 81 or may be fully 36+18+45 = 99
> 
> thus there should not be any surprise here..
> 
> If Merignac gets 100 jets, then multiply it with 3+ minimum and Indian line will get 300+ jets....
> 
> simply
> IAC1 45 (30 jets on deck)
> IAC1 follow on - 2 nos - (36 jets on deck) - 100
> IAC2 - 1 numbers - 54 jets
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Rafale M market - 45+100+54 - 199
> Merignac line for Rafale M - 45+18 = 63
> Indian Line for Rafale M= 136 Jets
> 
> IAF need 190 jets
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> Indian line potential - 326 jets
> 
> I am not considering IAC2 second ship but if such a ship is constructed parallely add another 54 jets either in Merignac or in India Or it may sport AMCA also if its not a parallel construction.
> 
> The important factor is the cost part when such a deal works out over time and how much localisation actually brings in benefits to MIC, skill development and cost reduction..



Actually, there may be a little correction required here. S2 (INS Arihant), it appears, is different from S3 & S4, as per a certain authoritative report , also corroborated by prevailing circumstantial evidence.* S3 and S4 are expected to have 8 cell VLS arrangement i.e. double the S2 strike package.*







Further, the flight deck+ hanger deck area (and shape) of INS Vikrant isn't really conducive to 30 Rafales. The canards mean that Rafale cannot be organized into certain high density arrangements as compared to the F-18 or even the Mig-29K. There would probably be a 20-30% drop in aircraft carrying capacity of the carrier if Mig-29K is replaced by Rafale. Of course it is another question as to whether 24 Rafales are better than 36 Migs.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> subs - SSN and NG SSBN
> 
> Next Gen bcz present Arihant class of 3 subs are baby boomers..The next one will sport 12-16 VLS silos with the real deal of 12m length 2m width, 1 tonne warhead with 3 MIRV (200kt 270kg each) + possibly 2-3 Dummies in a flower shape.
> Thats also the one which will sport the Brahmos NG LACM/AShM fired from torpedo tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats the idea quicker induction.
> 
> 
> +++
> 
> tagging @Abingdonboy too
> 
> Vstol says Rafale M may be there in IAC1. If it happens then surely 42-45 will be ordered from merignac as IAC1 will come by Dec 06,2019..
> 
> so effectively in Merignac - 36+18+ 27 (45-18) = 81 or may be fully 36+18+45 = 99
> 
> thus there should not be any surprise here..
> 
> If Merignac gets 100 jets, then multiply it with 3+ minimum and Indian line will get 300+ jets....
> 
> simply
> IAC1 45 (30 jets on deck)
> IAC1 follow on - 2 nos - (36 jets on deck) - 100
> IAC2 - 1 numbers - 54 jets
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Rafale M market - 45+100+54 - 199
> Merignac line for Rafale M - 45+18 = 63
> Indian Line for Rafale M= 136 Jets
> 
> IAF need 190 jets
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> Indian line potential - 326 jets
> 
> I am not considering IAC2 second ship but if such a ship is constructed parallely add another 54 jets either in Merignac or in India Or it may sport AMCA also if its not a parallel construction.
> 
> The important factor is the cost part when such a deal works out over time and how much localisation actually brings in benefits to MIC, skill development and cost reduction..


Rafale-M for IAC-1 makes sense with what we can see (in that the IN has not shown any interest in a single more MiG-29K and 45 are insufficent for both the IAC-1 and Viky) but also presents its own set of chellenges namely delviery. When will the Rafale-Ms first be delviered to the IN? The IAC-1 will going into sea trails in mid/late 2018 and validating air ops is a huge part of the IAC-1 completing sea trails, of course the MiG-29Ks can be (and likely will) be used for the IAC-1's air wing but whenever the Rafale-M comes in it will take a while to intergrate a new fighter with the carrier.

Furthermore, when the IN inducts a new fighter they first form an ITFU and this lasts 2-3 years before the jets will be formally inducted into the IN and made fully operational.

It looks like its going to be some time before the Rafale-M is operational on an Indian carrier as I don't see deliveries happening for 3+ years and another 2-3 years in ITFU on top of that.

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## notting hill

Rafale deal is finalised.. reports NDTV ..

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/rafa...ndia-and-france-for-7-8-billion-euros-1395958

The first Rafale fighter jets will take at least 18 months to arrive in India

NEW DELHI: 
*HIGHLIGHTS*

PM Modi during visit to Paris last year confirmed India's order
The Rafales are made by manufacturer Dassault Aviation
France initially sought 11 billion Euros for the sale of 36 fighters

India's much-negotiated deal with France for 36 fighter jets is final - it will buy the French-made Rafale planes for 7.8 billion Euros, said sources to NDTV. The agreement is to be signed within three weeks and it will take at least 18 months for India to get the first lot of aircraft.

France initially sought 11 billion Euros for the sale of 36 fighters complete with weapon systems.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi during a visit to Paris last year confirmed India's order of 36 read-to-fly jets. Before that, the Defence Ministry had sanctioned the purchase of 120 planes, but the deal was scaled down dramatically after both sides were unable for years to agree on the unit price and the assembling of the planes in India.

The Rafales are made by manufacturer Dassault Aviation. During PM Modi's visit, the countries agreed that the deal would be handled between their governments.


The Air Force has stressed it needs to start replacing its ageing jet fleet from 2017 to effectively check the capabilities of Pakistan and China.





The Rafale fighter is manufactured by Dassault Aviation

As the negotiations stretched - and a deal was not reached during French President Francois Hollande's visit to India in January, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said he is "a tough negotiator" and needed time to ensure a good bargain. The Air Force has repeatedly been asking for its ageing warplane fleet to be urgently modernised.
Sources say that as part of the government's push to develop and support military manufacturing at home, in exchange for selling India off-the-shelf Rafales, French companies including Dassault will have to invest three billion dollars in India to help firms here with stealth-capability and radar technologies.

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## notting hill

Rafale deal is finalised.. reports NDTV

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## notting hill

Rafale deal is finalised.. reports NDTV


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## maxpayne

notting hill said:


> Rafale deal is finalised.. reports NDTV


wow...once again? Lets clap!

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## ayesha.a

Rafale Jet Deal Finalised By India And France For 7.8 Billion Euros

All India | Edited by Abhinav Bhatt | Updated: April 15, 2016 20:01 IST

Rafale Jet Deal Finalised By India And France For 7.8 Billion Euros

The first Rafale fighter jets will take at least 18 months to arrive in India
New Delhi: 
Highlights

PM Modi during visit to Paris last year confirmed India's order
The Rafales are made by manufacturer Dassault Aviation
France initially sought 11 billion Euros for the sale of 36 fighters

India's much-negotiated deal with France for 36 fighter jets is final - it will buy the French-made Rafale planes for 7.8 billion Euros or nearly Rs. 59,000 crores.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi during a visit to Paris last year confirmed India's order of 36 read-to-fly jets; the initial talks had been for 120 planes, but the deal was scaled down dramatically after both sides were not able to agree on the unit price and the assembling of the planes in India.

The Rafales are made by manufacturer Dassault Aviation. During PM Modi's visit, the countries agreed that the deal would be handled between their governments.

France initially sought 11 billion Euros for the sale of 36 fighters complete with weapon systems. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, explaining the delays, had said he is "a tough negotiator" and needed time to ensure a good bargain. The Air Force has repeatedly been asking for its ageing warplane fleet to be urgently modernized.

The papers confirming the nearly 8 billion Euro purchase are to be signed in the next three weeks, said sources, adding that the first Rafales will take at least 18 months to arrive here.

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## Roybot

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/rafa...illion-euros-1395958?pfrom=home-lateststories

*Rafale Jet Deal Finalised By India And France For 7.8 Billion Euros*


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## Abba_Dabba_Jabba

Can't believe it.. seriously?


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## IndianSudhakar

Great News that every one is waiting to hear...Modi delivered. Don't forget we will have a Make in India component too...


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## zebra7

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy can you confirm the news

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## notting hill

India Today channel also reporting the same.


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## zebra7

*Livefist* ‏@*livefist*  15m15 minutes ago


Reports in that India & France have finalised their deal for 36 Rafale fighters. Contract signature in a month.







*Deccan Herald* ‏@*TheDeccanHerald*  5m5 minutes ago  Bengaluru, India 


#*JUST* IN: India and France finalise #*Rafale* deal worth 7.8 billion Euros for 36 fighter jets: TV Reports

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## Abingdonboy

zebra7 said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy can you confirm the news


Confirmed from an indepedant party-DEAL DONE.

Officals from both sides will be signing this in the next few weeks (late April/early May).

Talks for the follow on 90 (first batch) to be made in India will be complete within 8 months.


@PARIKRAMA @Taygibay @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil @SR-91

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## SR-91

Abingdonboy said:


> The Indian market is large enough to satisfy everyone.
> 
> As for engines, if this Rafale deal is clinched and in the scale one is talking about (200+) the ADA had better consider fitting uprated M88s in the AMCA, it would be foolish to puruse the F414.




Congrats my brothers, Finally this deal can be "almost put aside".

I was really hoping French's help on developing Kaveri/kabini/Ghatak engine as part of this deal.

GOI can't be that stupid to go with US for F414. I think we still have a chance here, 36 Rafales came with French's help with Nuclear Reactors. Maybe 90 Rafales with come with thier help with Jet Engines. I wouldn't rule that out.


@PARIKRAMA, my bad brother, didn't know you had posted some very interesting news on Rafales. News was huge and you have credibility so why not open a new thread. 

Anyways, will wait for the fat lady to sing to make it official.

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## Ryuzaki

Huge discount from earlier figures


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## Abingdonboy

This deal is just the tip of the iceberg, 


@PARIKRAMA's projection:



PARIKRAMA said:


> Vstol says Rafale M may be there in IAC1. If it happens then surely 42-45 will be ordered from merignac as IAC1 will come by Dec 06,2019..
> 
> so effectively in Merignac - 36+18+ 27 (45-18) = 81 or may be fully 36+18+45 = 99
> 
> thus there should not be any surprise here..
> 
> If Merignac gets 100 jets, then multiply it with 3+ minimum and Indian line will get 300+ jets....
> 
> simply
> IAC1 45 (30 jets on deck)
> IAC1 follow on - 2 nos - (36 jets on deck) - 100
> IAC2 - 1 numbers - 54 jets
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Rafale M market - 45+100+54 - 199
> Merignac line for Rafale M - 45+18 = 63
> Indian Line for Rafale M= 136 Jets
> 
> IAF need 190 jets
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> Indian line potential - 326 jets

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## IndianSudhakar

11 Million to 7.8 Million is a good drop. Can experts comment on the price ? Did India get a good deal on price ?


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## Abingdonboy

Ryuzaki said:


> Huge discount from earlier figures


If there was any truth to those figures......

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Just today morning saw @PARIKRAMA s post on Rafale sticky thread about deal being done.... 

Now I just hope this isn't Modi and Holland's meeting part 3.

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## Abingdonboy

IndianSudhakar said:


> 11 Million to 7.8 Million is a good drop. Can experts comment on the price ? Did India get a good deal on price ?


Until the full package is known it is hard to say but this deal is very consistent with the export price for the Rafale and considering 50% of the cost will be re-invested into India and these jets will be customised to Indian spec, this is a fine deal indeed.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Abingdonboy said:


> If there was any truth to those figures......



The aforementioned amount , near about 8.8 Billion USD, well I think its the middle way out. 

Only hope that we get a good amount of offsets, industrial benefits and some crucial help in some areas like production, AESA, engine etc.

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## mehboobkz

9 billion USD divided by 36 aircrafts = Very expensive Item.

India still got robbed.

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## Abingdonboy

mehboobkz said:


> 9 billion USD divided by 36 aircrafts = Very expensive Item.
> 
> India still got robbed.


Only dummies would use this backwards approach to calcuate unit cost. The FIRST deal is ALWAYS going to cost more as into the price you have the cost of infrastructure set up, training, spares, maintainence, weapons etc etc etc. The marginal cost therafter drops signifcantly.

Dividing total cost by number of units is never going to give you anything like a representational figure but then you aren't interested in a nuanced and factual anaysis are you?

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> Rafale-M for IAC-1 makes sense with what we can see (in that the IN has not shown any interest in a single more MiG-29K and 45 are insufficent for both the IAC-1 and Viky) but also presents its own set of chellenges namely delviery. When will the Rafale-Ms first be delviered to the IN? The IAC-1 will going into sea trails in mid/late 2018 and validating air ops is a huge part of the IAC-1 completing sea trails, of course the MiG-29Ks can be (and likely will) be used for the IAC-1's air wing but whenever the Rafale-M comes in it will take a while to intergrate a new fighter with the carrier.
> 
> Furthermore, when the IN inducts a new fighter they first form an ITFU and this lasts 2-3 years before the jets will be formally inducted into the IN and made fully operational.
> 
> It looks like its going to be some time before the Rafale-M is operational on an Indian carrier as I don't see deliveries happening for 3+ years and another 2-3 years in ITFU on top of that.


You can train your navy pilot, with French Rafale M on your existing STOBAR during the IPER of Charle de Gaulle...

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## Ankit Kumar 002

mehboobkz said:


> 9 billion USD divided by 36 aircrafts = Very expensive Item.
> 
> India still got robbed.



Kuwait got 28 Eurofighter for near 9 billion USD.
Australia too got Super Hornets for near over 250 million bucks a piece.
Gripen C in 2012 as offered to Switzerland without anything was over 100 million bucks...

So the point is, if India wants a western platform, CHEAP IS NOT AN OPTION.

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## The BrOkEn HeArT

OMG. It is true or still April fool is going on?


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## Abingdonboy

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Kuwait got 28 Eurofighter for near 9 billion USD.
> Australia too got Super Hornets for near over 250 million bucks a piece.
> Gripen C in 2012 as offered to Switzerland without anything was over 100 million bucks...
> 
> So the pint is, if India wants a western platform, CHEAP IS NOT AN OPTION.


This deal is about more than just the plane, there is a LOT more coming than the airframes themselves.


This is basically the establishment of France as _*the*_ strategic partner of India.

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## Abingdonboy

Indian line potential - 326 jets[/QUOTE]


Picdelamirand-oil said:


> You can train your navy pilot, with French Rafale M on your existing STOBAR during the IPER of Charle de Gaulle...


When is that set to occur?


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## Ankit Kumar 002

The BrOkEn HeArT said:


> OMG. It is true or still April fool is going on?



We got these hints from Parik about it in the morning itself in the sticky thread , when there was no report or anything. So I am positive.



Abingdonboy said:


> This deal is about more than just the plane, there is a LOT more coming than the airframes themselves.
> 
> 
> This is basically the establishment of France as _*the*_ strategic partner of India.



Of course, a lot of things.We have had discussed them to death in the sticky thread. Time is the villain here,only wish now is that its not just another meeting with announcement about deal to be signed soon.

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## Abingdonboy

@BON PLAN @Picdelamirand-oil @MilSpec @Spectre @nair @SpArK @Blue Marlin @Water Car Engineer @ACE OF THE AIR @waz @acetophenol @Horus @Oscar @Levina @Parul @IndoCarib @IndoUS @janon @Koovie @Guynextdoor2 @sathya @SrNair @Dandpatta @danish_vij @Roybot @mike2000 is back @kbd-raaf @Nilgiri @knight11 @Bombaywalla

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## Sankpal

once deal signed than I will wakeup

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## shah1398

7.8 billion Euros= 8.82 billion USD. Considering this much money is for 36 jets then the figure for 1 Rafale I am getting is making me think to revisit my maths. Whats the complete package and whats the price tag per aircraft fixed now?


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## Abingdonboy

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Of course, a lot of things.We have had discussed them to death in the sticky thread. Time is the villain here,only wish now is that its not just another meeting with announcement about deal to be signed soon.


The IGA signing in January stated the final issue was cost, now this has been agreed the foundations have already been laid (in the IGA) so all that is left to do is contract signings and releasing funds.

DPP-2016 was released on April 2 2016, a couple of weeks later....

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## Abingdonboy

shah1398 said:


> 7.8 billion Euros= 8.82 billion USD. Considering this much money is for 36 jets then the figure for 1 Rafale I am getting is making me think to revisit my maths. Whats the complete package and whats the price tag per aircraft fixed now?


It's impossible to caluclate unit cost based on total deal cost as we don't know the customisaton/support/spare/logistics/weapon/training package contained within.

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## Spectre

@PARIKRAMA willl we be happy once the details emerge? Word on the street is that important cutting edge enhancements were dropped to get a palatable cost.

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## Abingdonboy

SR-91 said:


> My half brother I think you probably meant this*********************.


Expect more of this, a certain kind of person is who until this very week were proclaiming "India will never get Rafale" will now simply switch over to "India got ripped off"

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Abingdonboy said:


> The IGA signing in January stated the final issue was cost, now this has been agreed the foundations have already been laid (in the IGA) so all that is left to do is contract signings and releasing funds.
> 
> DPP-2016 was released on April 2 2016, a couple of weeks later....



I know, but I don't want to start jumping right now. Last 2 times I did and nothing occured.... so fingers crossed and just praying now.

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## Abingdonboy

Sankpal said:


> Also what will be happened with ------------- itni saari khushiyon ka?
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/france-p...-missiles-deal-as-indian-mmrca-stalls.361708/

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## Blue Marlin



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## Vergennes

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @SrNair 

I'll take this news with a pintch of salt,let's wait for official confirmations. 
If it's true,this is a good news,FINALLY.

@Blue Marlin @mike2000 is back 

Brace yourselves,Brits,we won't break your Hawk deal record.

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## The BrOkEn HeArT

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> I know, but I don't want to start jumping right now. Last 2 times I did and nothing occured.... so fingers crossed and just praying now.


Agree . we should not jump until down payment will not be done.

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## Immortan.Joe

Spectre said:


> @PARIKRAMA willl we be happy once the details emerge? *Word on the street is that important cutting edge enhancements were dropped to get a palatable cost.*



Engine upgrades?

And given that this deal is for $8.82 Billion, I do not see any sharp price reduction.

So what enhancements were dropped?

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> Indian line potential - 326 jets



When is that set to occur?[/QUOTE]
It is planned to begin early in 2017 and the duration is 15 to 18 months

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## shah1398

Abingdonboy said:


> It's impossible to caluclate unit cost based on total deal cost as we don't know the customisaton/support/spare/logistics/weapon/training package contained within.


Sir every deal includes spare support/weaponry/training/GSE etc and the whole thing contributes to per unit cost. We can not and shud not keep aircraft and its accessories separately. Its a new system for IAF and IAF ll have to go thru whole process of inducting a new system and any new system induction costs a lot. But lets wait for details to emerge.

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## SR-91

Abingdonboy said:


> *Only dummies* *would use this backwards approach to calcuate unit cost.* The FIRST deal is ALWAYS going to cost more as into the price you have the cost of infrastructure set up, training, spares, maintainence, weapons etc etc etc. The marginal cost therafter drops signifcantly.
> 
> 
> 
> Dividing total cost by number of units is never going to give you anything like a representational figure but then you aren't interested in a nuanced and factual anaysis are you?





Abingdonboy said:


> Expect more of this, a certain kind of person is who until this very week were proclaiming "India will never get Rafale" will now simply switch over to "India got ripped off"




OH MY GOD, baniya got ripped off.

India got the almighty RAFALE, so in the end "*it's well worth the so called rip-off*".

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## Blue Marlin

Vauban said:


> @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @SrNair
> 
> I'll take this news with a pintch of salt,let's wait for official confirmations.
> If it's true,this is a good news,FINALLY.
> 
> @Blue Marlin @mike2000 is back
> 
> Brace yourselves,Brits,we won't break your Hawk deal record.


more waiting!!! ohh boy i guess it back to bed for me then

when its official wake me up then we will celebrate...... British style

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## enquencher

@PARIKRAMA had confirmed this news today.i belive him he has solid sources.

Jus a thought.. is @PARIKRAMA pdf id of m parrikar☺

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## sathya

Spectre said:


> @PARIKRAMA willl we be happy once the details emerge? Word on the street is that important cutting edge enhancements were dropped to get a palatable cost.




Can the enhancements be done after MII deal ? 
IRST ? Spectra ? Tailos ?



Spectre said:


> @PARIKRAMA willl we be happy once the details emerge? Word on the street is that important cutting edge enhancements were dropped to get a palatable cost.




Can the enhancements be done after MII deal ? 
IRST ? Spectra ? Tailos ?

@PARIKRAMA

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## Sankpal

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india/r...36-fighter-jets-for-7-8-bn-euros-1230349.html
http://www.dnaindia.com/money/repor...ighter-jets-with-france-at-88-billion-2202463
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/rafa...ndia-and-france-for-7-8-billion-euros-1395958
http://www.firstpost.com/india/in-l...lise-rafale-deal-at-7-8-bn-euros-2732136.html

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/540685/india-france-narrow-down-differences.html

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## jung41

http://www.firstpost.com/india/in-l...lise-rafale-deal-at-7-8-bn-euros-2732136.html

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## SamantK

I dont care what people say here, if our MoD thinks its a good deal, I will be fine with it.

Our armed forces deserve the best and if they think this is the best thing they can afford, so be it.

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## Abingdonboy

enquencher said:


> Jus a thought.. is @PARIKRAMA pdf id of m parrikar☺


My good friend @PARIKRAMA is thankfully nothing like the DM in the sense that he presents very well constructed and well thoght out fact based analysis. He doesn't go around spouting absurd and contradictory things.

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## ayesha.a

Unless there will be a large number of follow on orders, preferably with local manufacturing, it doesn't make sense to spend so much money for so few jets. It doesn't make sense to purchase this few jets at all.

So I really hope there would be additional orders of a 100+. All those recent rumblings about setting up a western manufacturing line in India had better be the Rafale.

But that makes me wonder, why the piecemeal orders? Why not exercise the follow on orders together? Wasn't the intent of MRCA always 126+ jets? Why not buy 36, and simultaneously order 90+ to be made in India? What is the need for more negotiations?

(Of course, I'm assuming this is only the first batch. If these 36 are all we intend to order, 8.8 billion dollars could have been spent way better.)

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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> When is that set to occur?


It is planned to begin early in 2017 and the duration is 15 to 18 months[/QUOTE]
Hmmm, that to me sounds like very convenient timing for India, hopefully the MoD/IN utilises this opportunity and the French side makes such sensible offers for India. That is almost perfect timing.

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## Windjammer

*India, France narrow down differences; Rafale deal in final stage*
New Delhi, Apr 16, 2016, (PTI):





*The negotiations over the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets have enered the "final stages" as both India and France have managed to narrow down their differences over the pricing.*

*Government sources said that the deal has not been concluded yet but it is in "final stages".

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/540685/india-france-narrow-down-differences.html
*

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## Zain Malik

Ahh not again Indians.....You did this two times before.......



Windjammer said:


> *India, France narrow down differences; Rafale deal in final stage*
> New Delhi, Apr 16, 2016, (PTI):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The negotiations over the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets have enered the "final stages" as both India and France have managed to narrow down their differences over the pricing.*
> 
> *Government sources said that the deal has not been concluded yet but it is in "final stages".
> 
> http://www.deccanherald.com/content/540685/india-france-narrow-down-differences.html*


But I don't think so it conclude.....What do you say @Windjammer


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## Immortan.Joe

@Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @PARIKRAMA

Are you sure that Rafale-M could fly from IAC-I?

I am not as IAC-I was designed with specifications of Mig-29K and may or may not be suitable for Rafale, and even if suitable, it may or may not be optimum for it.

+ Could Rafale even fly from STOBAR carriers?

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## Windjammer

Zain Malik said:


> Ahh not again Indians.....You did this two times before.......
> 
> 
> But I don't think so it conclude.....What do you say @Windjammer



Rafale was selected back in 2012.....that was over four years ago......let's see what can happen in four weeks...and then how long it takes for the first aircraft to be delivered. !!!

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Zain Malik said:


> Ahh not again Indians.....You did this two times before.......
> 
> 
> But I don't think so it conclude.....What do you say @Windjammer



Indians know this and that's the reason why so few are here at present. Everyone playing safe. 

This news was given this morning, by our 007 , aka @PARIKRAMA in the sticky thread, when nothing was announced.... so this time everyone is a bit positive. Just that everyone is playing it safe.

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## Abingdonboy

ayesha.a said:


> But that makes me wonder, why the piecemeal orders? Why not exercise the follow on orders together? Wasn't the intent of MRCA always 126+ jets? Why not buy 36, and simultaneously order 90+ to be made in India? What is the need for more negotiations?


More Rafales are assured now and Dassualt is in advanced stages of signing the deal for the follow-on tranche (90 units) to be made in India.

The reason for this "pericmeal" ordering? Explictly what the PM has said- meeting the immediate needs of the IAF. So of the orginal 126 requirement (that was always just a minimum anyway) 18 were to be off the shelf- under the new deal that has been doubled (to 36) and thus faster delivery will occur to meet the IAF who is rapidly losing its SQN strength.

Why the two deals couldn't be signed together? The 36 off the shelf jets have been pursued through a G-G deal with the French and Indian Govts taking the lead but the follow-on units to be made in India are being pursued in a SEPERATE commercial deal where Dassualt is in talks with private Indian companies and thus the complexity of the latter is VAST and inherently different to the 36 G-G deal and thus require a bit more time and attention. That being said Dassualt's CEO said in Febuary that they were already in the advanced stages of talks with Indian partners for the follow-on Make in India deal, now this 36 off the shelf deal is out of the way attention can and will shift to the more important Make in India part. 

Do not forget these current talks in the present form are about 12 months old (April 2015-April 2016) with the MMRCA talks being entirely scrapped and an entirely new process being intiated that is very different to the MMRCA (the Make in India part now being private industry lead and not HAL led). All in all one has to complement both sides for getting a deal of this magnitude agreed in 12/13 months, but of course this will be forgotten and people will attach absurd timelines to this agreement (8 years,7 years or 4 years).

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## Sankpal

Zain Malik said:


> Ahh not again Indians.....You did this two times before.......
> 
> 
> But I don't think so it conclude.....What do you say @Windjammer



Have you read it?

News itself saying contract will sign MaxiMuM by May end

if prise issue solved than deal is 99% done


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## Ankit Kumar 002

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/720994567839809536 As said its not just about 36!

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## Dash

Areesh said:


> No Pakistani is commenting on this thread and neither there is statement from Pakistani government but somehow there is shortage of burnol in Pakistan.
> 
> Talk about bharati obsession with Pakistan. Even burnol can't cure it.
> 
> 
> 
> Lol "final stages"



What is left to comment for you nomads? When Indian newspapers are filled with the closure of the deal??

And why final stages? Coz contract will be signed in two weeks let's say a month also is fine as long as the price issue stands resolved. But you won't get it as you only have your mighty F 16s and you can't even protest 



Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/720994567839809536



Now Saurabh Jha is jumping guns

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## sathya

Immortan.Joe said:


> @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @PARIKRAMA
> 
> Are you sure that Rafale-M could fly from IAC-I?
> 
> I am not as IAC-I was designed with specifications of Mig-29K and may or may not be suitable for Rafale, and even if suitable, it may or may not be optimum for it.
> 
> + Could Rafale even fly from STOBAR carriers?




We also should not forget about N LCA .
It will be in the mix with Mig29k , not sure about cartobar carriers

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## Beast

IndianSudhakar said:


> Great News that every one is waiting to hear...Modi delivered. Don't forget we will have a Make in India component too...


Congrat India for closing the deal and not insisting made in India. Rafale is too complicated to be made in India. Just buy off shelf and quickly get the plane.

What is the made in India component?


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## Immortan.Joe

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Uncalled for. Please remove it to keep the thread clean.




But the comment was dead on. There are two burnol candidates clutching at straws in this very thread.



Vauban said:


> @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @SrNair
> 
> I'll take this news with a pintch of salt,let's wait for official confirmations.
> If it's true,this is a good news,FINALLY.
> 
> @Blue Marlin @mike2000 is back
> 
> Brace yourselves,Brits,we won't break your Hawk deal record.





Blue Marlin said:


> more waiting!!! ohh boy i guess it back to bed for me then
> 
> when its official wake me up then we will celebrate...... British style




It looks like this deal is finally done this time. Whole media is filled with report of finalization and yesterday @PARIKRAMA has also stated that the deal has been signed and paper exchanged.

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## nik22

zebra7 said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy can you confirm the news


Sorry bro, what can they confirm? Are they Govt representative ?

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## mike2000 is back

Vauban said:


> @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @SrNair
> 
> I'll take this news with a pintch of salt,let's wait for official confirmations.
> If it's true,this is a good news,FINALLY.
> 
> @Blue Marlin @mike2000 is back
> 
> Brace yourselves,Brits,we won't break your Hawk deal record.



Well until official confirmation and payment has been done. I will take this news with
pinch of salt as well. 

Anyway, even if its true and confirmed i'm happy for our french allies, The more defence deals European powers like Britain and France sign around the world, the better for Europe's Interests and world influence.


Blue Marlin said:


>


Ahahhaha..................very appropriate image.

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## enquencher

This deal seems jus tip of iceberg.. i suspect at least 100+ more coming coz buying 36 does not make any meaning only if they are kept for stratergic command to bring shit out of the enemy. There will suerly be help in aesa and engines. Amca may have lot of french help including engines.frenchies are a reliable partner. Or are v seeing some joint venture coming with frenchies in amca

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## Dash

nik22 said:


> Sorry bro, what can they confirm? Are they Govt representative ?



You can say that with a bag of salt.. But they have some people..


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## utraash

wow, this news made my day ...
Now just waiting for the Bird fly down with all its feathers .........


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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

I remember the initial mrca competition was around 11 billion USD for 126 planes. How did to balloon into 7.8 billion Euros for 36?

This is far too pricey and with the arrival of 5th gen fighters in the next few years how can this deal be justified?

7.8 billion could kick start a national jet engine plan or an *indigenous* 5th gen project.


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## Ankit Kumar 002

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> I remember the initial mrca competition waan option. 11 billion USD for 126 planes. How did to balloon into 7.8 billion Euros for 36?
> 
> This is far too pricey and with the arrival of 5th gen fighters in the next few years how can this deal be justified?
> 
> 7.8 billion could kick start a national jet engine plan or an *indigenous* 5th gen project.



Follow the sticky thread of Rafale. You will know that if going west is the desire, then cheap is not an option.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Immortan.Joe said:


> + Could Rafale even fly from STOBAR carriers?



Dassault have already cleared Rafale to be used from STOBAR. 
Rafale can fly at very low speed and its clause coupled canard give it a lot of lift. It will be better than Mig 29.

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## Zain Malik

Sankpal said:


> Have you read it?
> 
> News itself saying contract will sign MaxiMuM by May end
> 
> if prise issue solved than deal is 99% done


Let' See what happens.....

Rafale is no matter for Pakistan Air Force.......
We can easily undertake it with block 3.....


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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Follow the sticky thread of Rafale. You will know that if going west is the desire, then cheap is not an option.



There is a difference between exorbitant and expensive.

Expensive can be justified but exorbitant is getting ripped off.

Remember the price tag charged by the French to upgrade 24 mirage fighters? They charged 2.4 billion USD.


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## Crixus

You are right no worries for Pakistan it's for eastern side 



Zain Malik said:


> Let' See what happens.....
> 
> Rafale is no matter for Pakistan Air Force.......
> We can easily undertake it with block 3.....


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## Zain Malik

Crixus said:


> You are right no worries for Pakistan it's for eastern side


You mean China.....????

Well if you really think that throw that thought out of your mind........


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## monitor

*Rafale deal finalised, India to purchase 36 fighter jets from France for 7.8 bn euros: Report*
Last Updated: Friday, April 15, 2016 - 21:25
2088
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Rafale fighter jets | Image credit: Associated Press
*Zee Media Bureau*
New Delhi: In a major development, India and France are believed to have finalised the multi-billion Rafale fighter jets deal.


_NDTV_ reported on Friday that the deal under which India will acquire 36 Rafale fighter jets from Dassault Aviation has been finalised for a sum of EUR 7.8 billion (around Rs 59,000 crores).

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had recently said that the deal will be finalised soon.

The first deliveries are expected to start by 2019 after the deal is officially signed, which is likely to happen in about a month's time.


Dassault had recently revised down the deal price of EUR 11.6 billion (Rs 85,000 crores) with 2015 as the base year for fixing the price for each aircraft manufactured, to EUR 8 billion (Rs 65,000 crores) with 2011 as the base year.






MUST READ
*With Rafale deal in limbo, India may buy American F/A-18 fighter jets*
In 2015, the Indian government had withdrawn the tender to procure 126 multi-medium role combat aircraft (MMRCA). Rafale had been chosen as the jet India would buy.

Shortly after, during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France in April 2015, India had decided to purchase 36 Rafale fighter jets in a government-to-government deal to boost the depleting fighter squad strength of the Indian Air Force.


First Published: Friday, April 15, 2016 - 20:16

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## Mav3rick

Zain Malik said:


> Let' See what happens.....
> 
> Rafale is no matter for Pakistan Air Force.......
> We can easily undertake it with block 3.....



There is patriotism and then there is common sense, better to use the later at times.

The only thing that can counter a Rafale is the J-31!


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## Alpha Fighter

Zain Malik said:


> Let' See what happens.....
> 
> Rafale is no matter for Pakistan Air Force.......
> We can easily undertake it with block 3.....


with French electronics or Chinese one in Block 3 )

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## Zain Malik

Mav3rick said:


> There is patriotism and then there is common sense, better to use the later at times.
> 
> The only thing that can counter a Rafale is the J-31!


Hahahaha....I have both and I use them at a same time.....


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## Ankit Kumar 002

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> There is a difference between exorbitant and expensive.
> 
> Expensive can be justified but exorbitant is getting ripped off.
> 
> Remember the price tag charged by the French to upgrade 24 mirage fighters? They charged 2.4 billion USD.



Any better option you have ?


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## Crixus

I was referring to Bhutan 


Zain Malik said:


> You mean China.....????
> 
> Well if you really think that throw that thought out of your mind........

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## Zain Malik

Alpha Fighter said:


> with French electronics or Chinese one in Block 3 )


Both can work mate...We have world proven pilots which you don't have......


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## Alpha Fighter

Beast said:


> Congrat India for closing the deal and not insisting made in India. Rafale is too complicated to be made in India. Just buy off shelf and quickly get the plane.
> 
> What is the made in India component?


lol, your need to open your ears and eyes , talking will be closed in next 3 months for 100 units of " Made In India"

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## Stephen Cohen



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## Bad Guy

*Rafale Deal Final, India to Buy 36 Fighter Jets for 7.8 bn Euros



*


> *Mumbai:* India has finalised a much-negotiated deal with France by agreeing to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets for 7.8 billion euros (about Rs 59,000 crore), defence ministry sources said Friday.
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced in April 25 that India would go for a government-to-government deal with France for purchasing the fighter planes but the final contract was kept pending over the price of the aircraft. The Rafales are made by French manufacturer Dassault Aviation.
> Top government sources had said in January that an Inter-Governmental Agreement will be signed only once the prices have been finalised.
> Sources said the price for 36 Rafales, as per the tender floated by the previous UPA government, keeping cost escalation and dollar rate in mind, had come to a little over Rs 65,000 crore. This included cost involved in making changes India sought in the aircraft, like Israeli helmet-mounted display and some specific weaponry.
> During French President Francois Hollande's visit in January, India and France inked an MoU for the purchase but differences over the pricing of the fighter jets still persisted.

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## +4vsgorillas-Apebane

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Any better option you have ?



Save the money for indigenous projects and keep the money inside the country.


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## Alpha Fighter

Zain Malik said:


> Both can work mate...We have world proven pilots which you don't have......


lol, that's why you running after French ............ because your proven pilots cannot work with Chinese planes and required F-16 ......

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## Stephen Cohen

Congratulations to ALL my INDIAN brothers and Sisters

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## Alpha Fighter

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> Save the money for indigenous projects and keep the money inside the country.


money come as off set and 100 units will be made in India...... India bringing technology, like you asked Russian to design your chopper....


----------



## Zain Malik

Alpha Fighter said:


> lol, that's why you running after French ............ because your proven pilots cannot work with Chinese planes and required F-16 ......


Who said you......We work still better with Chinese equipment than western equipment.....


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## Alpha Fighter

mike2000 is back said:


> Well until official confirmatiin and payment has been done. I will take this news with
> pinch of salt.
> 
> Anyway, evven if its true and confirmed im happy for our french allies, The more defence deals european powers like Britain and France sign around the world, the better for Europe's Interests and world influence.
> 
> Ahahhaha very approrpriate image.



Well if your don't know Germany / UK and French are all different power with different interests



Zain Malik said:


> Who said you......We work still better with Chinese equipment than western equipment.....


then why running after F-16 and French ?


----------



## Bad Guy

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar 002 Ek story aur Khatam.

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## Zain Malik

Crixus said:


> I was referring to Bhutan


Speak the truth always.....You have close relationships with Bhutan.......


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## Sankpal

Zain Malik said:


> Both can work mate...We have world proven pilots which you don't have......


world proven???????????????????????

Please this is not joke form i guess.
every country people believe their fighter pilots are best and they should believe that............ but world best?


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## Dash

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Dassault have already cleared Rafale to be used from STOBAR.
> Rafale can fly at very low speed and its clause coupled canard give it a lot of lift. It will be better than Mig 29.



The lift comes from delta wings. Canrads are for better maneuverability..



Abingdonboy said:


> It is planned to begin early in 2017 and the duration is 15 to 18 months


Hmmm, that to me sounds like very convenient timing for India, hopefully the MoD/IN utilises this opportunity and the French side makes such sensible offers for India. That is almost perfect timing.[/QUOTE]

Today is a good day my friend... As I have thought the deal to be around 9 billion USD, has come true. And tbh no matter how much you scold DM mp, I can say he cracked it albeit with other ones.

I hope we can soon close this may mentally torturing me thread and have some fresh air.

Enthusiasts have struggled for long being one of the oldest us. We can work something new out.

What say?

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## IndianSudhakar

Beast said:


> Congrat India for closing the deal and not insisting made in India. Rafale is too complicated to be made in India. Just buy off shelf and quickly get the plane.
> 
> What is the made in India component?


I meant the Followup order of 90 planes for which negotiation is going on. Sorry if i am not clear.


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## IndoCarib

No more deadlocks over the deal please. We need MRCAs ASAP. However I believe delivery will take atleast 2 years. Has Qatar airforce got their Rafale lot yet ?


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## MKC

Last Samuri said:


> India will have just thirty six rafales and the fify mirage,2000/9.that are being upgraded.
> 
> Su30mki induction is finished soon at 272 planes by 2018 I think.
> 
> Total effort on light single engines cheap tejss lca only from now on


I think ~320 MKIs are already orderd, obviously IAF can't stick just to LCA as IAF will retire about 500 aircrafts by 2025.


Vauban said:


> @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @SrNair
> 
> I'll take this news with a pintch of salt,let's wait for official confirmations.
> If it's true,this is a good news,FINALLY.
> 
> @Blue Marlin @mike2000 is back
> 
> Brace yourselves,Brits,we won't break your Hawk deal record.


Well 10 years of UPA was curse to India, nothing happened on defence front except P8I deal & scandals, even this MMRCA deal was announced before UPA, Scorpene submarines plans too.



ayesha.a said:


> Unless there will be a large number of follow-on orders, preferably with local manufacturing, it doesn't make sense to spend so much money for so few jets. It doesn't make sense to purchase this few jets at all.
> 
> So I really hope there would be additional orders of a 100+. All those recent rumblings about setting up a western manufacturing line in India had better be the Rafale.
> 
> But that makes me wonder, why the piecemeal orders? Why not exercise the follow on orders together? Wasn't the intent of MRCA always 126+ jets? Why not buy 36, and simultaneously order 90+ to be made in India? What is the need for more negotiations?
> 
> (Of course, I'm assuming this is only the first batch. If these 36 are all we intend to order, 8.8 billion dollars could have been spent way better.)





Parle - G said:


> by the way i m not shocked with the news coz i knew india will get it..in decent cost..11million to 8 million..its fair enough.


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## PARIKRAMA

CONGRATULATIONS..

i said what i could after getting to know when i posted in the sticky..

i gave the hint on tuesday






https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-192#post-8237913

it was good nobody picked it up too much then


and then





https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-193#post-8242769

its in line with what i earlier said about less than Euro 8bn or less than Rs 60000 crs.. i was hoping for 56000 crs but i am still fine with 59000 crs..

potential for jets in merignac line is more like 100 and indian line is 300.. unless something changes drastically IAF+IN together will operate 400 rafales mostly the Rafale of F3R2 and NG designations..

Its gonna be a quasi 5th Gen and will provide us with a unmatched capability...

so its time for







ps: time for multiple green ticks and positive ratings for me!!!

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## PARIKRAMA

CONGRATULATIONS..

i said what i could after getting to know when i posted in the sticky..

i gave the hint on tuesday





https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-192#post-8237913

it was good nobody picked it up too much then


and then





https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-193#post-8242769

its in line with what i earlier said about less than Euro 8bn or less than Rs 60000 crs.. i was hoping for 56000 crs but i am still fine with 59000 crs..

potential for jets in merignac line is more like 100 and indian line is 300.. unless something changes drastically IAF+IN together will operate 400 rafales mostly the Rafale of F3R2 and NG designations..

Its gonna be a quasi 5th Gen and will provide us with a unmatched capability...

so its time for







ps: time for multiple green ticks and positive ratings for me!!!

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## باپ

Wake me up when agreement is signed. The report says "Agreement to be signed in 3-4 weeks".
We have been seeing similar news reports for over a decade now


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## Stephen Cohen

@PARIKRAMA

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## Dash

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Follow the sticky thread of Rafale. You will know that if going west is the desire, then cheap is not an option.



Even if someone goes through the entire rafale sticky in this forum or any forum in the universe known and unknown, they will ask you the same question.

PS some one means new guy

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## ravi gupta

shah1398 said:


> 7.8 billion Euros= 8.82 billion USD. Considering this much money is for 36 jets then the figure for 1 Rafale I am getting is making me think to revisit my maths. Whats the complete package and whats the price tag per aircraft fixed now?


Boss,there is no cost for your defence,its a good and much awaited news.
Will celebrate today.


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## shah1398

ravi gupta said:


> Boss,there is no cost for your defence,its a good and much awaited news.
> Will celebrate today.


Plz celebrate to your full. Accomplishments shud always be celebrated.

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## Abingdonboy

Dash said:


> The lift comes from delta wings. Canrads are for better maneuverability..
> 
> 
> Hmmm, that to me sounds like very convenient timing for India, hopefully the MoD/IN utilises this opportunity and the French side makes such sensible offers for India. That is almost perfect timing.



Today is a good day my friend... As I have thought the deal to be around 9 billion USD, has come true. And tbh no matter how much you scold DM mp, I can say he cracked it albeit with other ones.

I hope we can soon close this may mentally torturing me thread and have some fresh air.

Enthusiasts have struggled for long being one of the oldest us. We can work something new out.

What say?[/QUOTE]
Might be a good idea once the contracts are signed to lock this thread and start a new thread "Indian Rafale deliveries and updTes thread" or something. 


I agree it would be good to start afresh



PARIKRAMA said:


> CONGRATULATIONS..
> 
> i said what i could after getting to know when i posted in the sticky..
> 
> i gave the hint on tuesday
> 
> View attachment 300548
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-192#post-8237913
> 
> it was good nobody picked it up too much then
> 
> 
> and then
> View attachment 300547
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-193#post-8242769
> 
> its in line with what i earlier said about less than Euro 8bn or less than Rs 60000 crs.. i was hoping for 56000 crs but i am still fine with 59000 crs..
> 
> potential for jets in merignac line is more like 100 and indian line is 300.. unless something changes drastically IAF+IN together will operate 400 rafales mostly the Rafale of F3R2 and NG designations..
> 
> Its gonna be a quasi 5th Gen and will provide us with a unmatched capability...
> 
> so its time for
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ps: time for multiple green ticks and positive ratings for me!!!


You deserve all the plaudits you get brother. 


+ @Dash I'm willing to cut the the DM some slack now, it seems there may have been a plan all along 

News in the last 3 days has been especially enlightening- 25 LCA/year is the target (with private player participation) so 250-300 LCA are assured along with 300+ MKI and 200+ Rafales and at some point the FGFA and AMCA will follow. In short, it has been assured that IAF will be the air power in Asia.

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## Immortan.Joe

Abingdonboy said:


> + @Dash I'm willing to cut the the DM some slack now, it seems there may have been a plan all along
> 
> News in the last 3 days has been especially enlightening- 25 LCA/year is the target (with private player participation) so 250-300 LCA are assured along with 300+ MKI and 200+ Rafales and at some point the FGFA and AMCA will follow. In short, it has been assured that IAF will be the air power in Asia.



And LSA to keep USA mollified.

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## IndianSudhakar

1) Based on what @PARIKRAMA said...India is going to use Rafale for Navy too... So Rafale is going to dominate Indian Airforce.
2) France seems to be rewarded for their neutral stance during Indian Nuclear tests. 
3) With the strengthening of Indian Air Force, India position will become very strong and will encourage china to be "friendly"
4) The strategic balance between India and Pakistan will be tilted decisively. 

BTW i love this plane. So beautiful it looks....

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## Abingdonboy

Immortan.Joe said:


> And LSA to keep USA mollified.


LSA because the IN wants it. The US can forget CISMOA and BECA.


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## Ankit Kumar 002

I will only say, that if we waited so long. Then wait for the agreement to be signed.

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## Immortan.Joe

Abingdonboy said:


> LSA because the IN wants it. The US can forget CISMOA and BECA.




But timing (just a day before announcement of Rafale deal).

I for one would never want US/US-MIC in my opposition camp (if I already do not have bad relations with US already). Their MIC has a capability to make Rafales useless by arming Pakistan appropriately (If they are mad enough at us for not buying teens),and do so at deep discounts.

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## volatile

Once again Congrats by the way you should thank Pak for starting Avionic deal with them .


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## Abingdonboy

Areesh said:


> Well we can still mock and troll india and its procurement. The mother of all defense deals that came down to 36 aircraft from 126.
> 
> But since nobody is butthurt in Pakistan like bharatis we are not doing that.
> 
> 
> 
> Well let's see how long this "final stage" would go on.
> 
> And why should we protest when we have a billion plus buggers to do randi rona aka protest for just 8 F16s.


Only in your dreams has the the deal come down to 36. As we speak Dassualt is finalising the deal for 90 follow on units to be made in India and this is just the start. The total requirement for Rafales in India for the IAF and IN is 300+ units. 

+ on what ground could Pakistan protest? India protested because those F-16s were being partly subsidised by the US taxpayer (yes yes CSF is not aid- sure thing) and were passed through the US congress and senate on the grounds of "fighting terrorism" (yeah right). Here India is paying 100% of the costs for its planes and not trying to dupe anyone of their intended role. 


Apples and oranges, typical false equivalency.

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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> LSA because the IN wants it. The US can forget CISMOA and BECA.



CISMOA would have been mandatory if we would have gone for F 18 

Now there is NO NEED for it because Rafale is done


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## Picdelamirand-oil

Dash said:


> The lift comes from delta wings. Canrads are for better maneuverability..


It's only true for long coupled canard, for close coupled canard you get a lift enhancement



> A wind-tunnel study to find the lift and drag characteristics of a low-aspect-ratio wingbody configuration from an angle of attack (AOA) of -8 to 50 degrees was conducted. A further study to find the comparative lift enhancement using the same wingbody with a close-coupled canard for wingbody angles of attack of 10, 22, 34, 40, and 48 degrees and canard deflection angles from -25 to 25 degrees was carried out. It was found that *a properly-located canard enhanced the lift at all tested angles of attack*, compared to the baseline wingbody configuration results. The lift enhancement was maximized in the post-stall regimes, reaching values up to 34%. A small improvement in lift- to-drag ratio was noted at all tested angles above 10 degrees angle of attack.


http://calhoun.nps.edu/handle/10945/27612

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## PARIKRAMA

price break up approx

2 bases - Euro 1.1 Bn x 2 = 2.2 Bn
Flyaway + weapons - Euro 2.7 Bn
All support packages - Euro 2.1 Bn
Customization - Euro 0.8 Bn

The flyaway + weapons - Euro 75 Mn or USD 84.75 Mn - the same as MMRCA $85 Mn

Removing weapons cost of USD 10-15 mn implies flyaway at USD 70-75 mn range or Euro 62-66 Mn.

after removing the VAT and adding marginal corporate profit, DA has given a solid deal to India where its going to use VOLUMES as a key to make humongous profit over next 20 years of production till 2035 and almost 5-6 decades of presence in Indian defense arena

@Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Vauban @Taygibay

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## IndianSudhakar

Actually should Thank Pakistan and china. Without your threats...India would have been pretty lethargic on Defence..

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## Spectre

IndianSudhakar said:


> Actually should Thank Pakistan and china. Without your threats...India would have been pretty lethargic on Defence..



Are you effing kidding me????? I would any day take zero Rafales for a peaceful and friendly neighbourhood. 

The resources we spend on defence is out of necessity without the need they provide marginal utility.

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## Alpha Fighter

Tipu7 said:


> *Actually the track record of MOTHER OF ALL DEAL is so good and promising that it force us to troll when ever we see that RAFALE Deal is final ...............*
> 
> It was final that India will buy 126 Rafales, then something happened..............
> It was final that India will buy 80 Rafales then something happened..................
> 
> This ''something'' force us to troll................. as we always wait for new episode of ''MOTHER OF ALL DEAL'' topi drama from India side...............
> 
> and every time new episode is more Pathetic than previous one



its not 126 or 80 its around 300 Lol


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## Immortan.Joe

PARIKRAMA said:


> price break up approx
> 
> 2 bases - Euro 1.1 Bn x 2 = 2.2 Bn
> Flyaway + weapons - Euro 2.7 Bn
> All support packages - Euro 2.1 Bn
> Customization - Euro 0.8 Bn
> 
> The flyaway + weapons - Euro 75 Mn or USD 84.75 Mn - the same as MMRCA $85 Mn
> 
> Removing weapons cost of USD 10-15 mn implies flyaway at USD 70-75 mn range or Euro 62-66 Mn.
> 
> after removing the VAT and adding marginal corporate profit, DA has given a solid deal to India where its going to use VOLUMES as a key to make humongous profit over next 20 years of production till 2035 and almost 5-6 decades of presence in Indian defense arena
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Vauban @Taygibay



At € 0,8 billion or $ 0.9 billion; I do not see any major customization like increase in Engine power.

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## Abingdonboy

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Follow the sticky thread of Rafale. You will know that if going west is the desire, then cheap is not an option.


If you want the best then you have to be prepared to pay for it- pay peanuts and get peanuts. But let's not forget that It's not just Western aircraft that are costly but high end Russian fighters too except they mask their high life cycle costs by offering relatively low upfront costs.

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## mirage

great news , i am new to this PDF family and every day checked the updates here . gr8 going modi government . everything is happening on fast pace and right direction now i guess .


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## PARIKRAMA

Immortan.Joe said:


> At € 0,8 billion or $ 0.9 billion; I do not see any major customization like increase in Engine power.


Engine work started last august so already 9 months gone so even if we get first rafales after 18 months it means 27-28 months from the project start and the project for new engine is suppose to be 24 months..

Its reasonable to assume we are going with the original 8.3-8.5T engine without major modification of air intake and 9tonne option.

moreover its a part finance not full as its a natural product evolution.. The new rafale with constant upgrades is slowly becoming heavy.. estimated 700 kgs are added and requirement of new engine is natural..

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> Engine work started last august so already 9 months gone so even if we get first rafales after 18 months it means 27-28 months from the project start and the project for new engine is suppose to be 24 months..
> 
> Its reasonable to assume we are going with the original 8.3-8.5T engine without major modification of air intake and 9tonne option.
> 
> moreover its a part finance not full as its a natural product evolution.. The new rafale with constant upgrades is slowly becoming heavy.. estimated 700 kgs are added and requirement of new engine is natural..


And this modification (8.3 t) is paid by Qatar.

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## sathya

What weapons are getting along with rafale ?

As spectre pointed out, what compromises have we done ?


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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> And this modification (8.3 t) is paid by Qatar.



thats why i said part finance bcz surely other stake holders would be involved..

Good finally its done.. so pic sir, any chance you coming in as consultant in the Indian venture.. you can try surely.. a man of your caliber can change our Aerospace segment,,


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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> price break up approx
> 
> 2 bases - Euro 1.1 Bn x 2 = 2.2 Bn
> Flyaway + weapons - Euro 2.7 Bn
> All support packages - Euro 2.1 Bn
> Customization - Euro 0.8 Bn


I would say All support packages - Euro 2.1 Bn is too high and Customization - Euro 0.8 Bn is too low.

One flying hour all inclusive for Rafale is 10000 $ 

So 1 year support is 250 hours so 2500000 $ for 10 years it's 25 millions and for 36 planes it's 0.9 Billions.

I think that it was one way to reduce the price to limit support to 10 years.

I think also that upgrading the bases will cost a little bit more.

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## mirage

Beast said:


> Congrat India for closing the deal and not insisting made in India. Rafale is too complicated to be made in India. Just buy off shelf and quickly get the plane.
> 
> What is the made in India component?


sir , speculate only in stock markets is my passion but on a defence forum like PDF where professional's gather and debate ,SO to know what will be make in India component viz-a-viz complicated rafale , we need to wait for few days more . atleast i am sure, make in india wont be beg borrow or steal or for that matter copy and paste in a *sweatshop labor camp* . and sir do you know , when the big balls of* hernia *get bigger or for that matter try to *increase their size* , they are very near to painful explosion , that state is called *scrotal hernia* , i hope you understand what i mean to say but remember that type of hernia , it will be useful in description during treatment which is eminent . bye for now .
( apologies for an off topic reply if it is one which i thought was needful )


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## Pandemonium

PARIKRAMA said:


> thats why i said part finance bcz surely other stake holders would be involved..
> 
> Good finally its done.. so pic sir, any chance you coming in as consultant in the Indian venture.. you can try surely.. a man of your caliber can change our Aerospace segment,,


do u work in the ministry of defence ? just curious

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## Bad Guy

http://m.rediff.com/news/report/def...ences-rafale-deal-in-final-stage/20160415.htm


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## sathya

PARIKRAMA said:


> CONGRATULATIONS..
> 
> i said what i could after getting to know when i posted in the sticky..
> 
> i gave the hint on tuesday
> 
> View attachment 300548
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-192#post-8237913
> 
> it was good nobody picked it up too much then
> 
> 
> and then
> View attachment 300547
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-193#post-8242769
> 
> its in line with what i earlier said about less than Euro 8bn or less than Rs 60000 crs.. i was hoping for 56000 crs but i am still fine with 59000 crs..
> 
> potential for jets in merignac line is more like 100 and indian line is 300.. unless something changes drastically IAF+IN together will operate 400 rafales mostly the Rafale of F3R2 and NG designations..
> 
> Its gonna be a quasi 5th Gen and will provide us with a unmatched capability...
> 
> so its time for
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ps: time for multiple green ticks and positive ratings for me!!!




How can we pick such hints!  When we had seen such hints for N number of times.
I will keep in mind for the next time, though..



Pandemonium said:


> do u work in the ministry of defence ? just curious




Some one asked if he is DM Parikkar

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## Irfan Baloch

Tipu7 said:


> @Irfan Baloch @waz
> 
> Can you show some love here?
> Few people are jumping too high on distracted and fabricated news of confirmation of Rafale induction.
> But in reality its India Media playing cheap again. Rafale deal is in final phase and* YET TO FINALIZE*
> 
> here is link related to it.............plz correct the misleading Title and edit the posts spreading rumors based upon assumptions............
> 
> *http://indianexpress.com/article/in...afale-fighter-jets-enter-final-stage-2755390/*


i cant care less to be honest with you
by the way .. that Bilawal guy in FB really lacks basic social skills..


----------



## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> I would say All support packages - Euro 2.1 Bn is too high and Customization - Euro 0.8 Bn is too low.
> 
> One flying hour all inclusive for Rafale is 10000 $
> 
> So 1 year support is 250 hours so 2500000 $ for 10 years it's 25 millions and for 36 planes it's 0.9 Billions.
> 
> I think that it was one way to reduce the price to limit support to 10 years.
> 
> I think also that upgrading the bases will cost a little bit more.



base price was initially Euro 1.4 Bn but after much haggling it has been reduced to Euro 1.1 Bn..

Support package basically contains everything.. what could be further broken down in direct and indirect costs and technology cost...

modifications have come down a bit.. primarily the NG version of missiles are not ready... of course a part of support package cost built in has 2 active component costs
1. RBE 2 AESA partial codes
2. Spectra + upgrade partial codes.
3. Few other items codes

all are partial codes implying India can add and customize but i dont think we can transfer and copy to other jets except one specific program AMCA where cooperation officially will be declared for specific technology help.

This actually allows us to integrate the indian weapon systems and later test+certify it...

Even though we like MICA+meteor combo we may end up with MICA+Astra and even a possibility of Derby+Derby ER+ AstraMk2 is there..

India is negotiating with rafael industries to locally make Derby owing to the fact that Derby,python and Derby ER will become mainstay of LCA fleet which is bound to reach 300 jets.. so wont be surprised if they like to use the same in Rafales as well over time..

The brahmos original plan of mounting is now taken over by 42 dedicated Su30 MkI.. the NG Brahmos is 5-7 years away.. so when it comes it will be integrated..

Thus the customization part cost came down partially with technology codes payment and doing certain customization later when available

the price of jets+weapons is more or less fixed and is a marked improvement from earlier $93 mn to now $85 Mn or Euro 70-75 Mn

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## Taygibay

Dash said:


> The lift comes from delta wings. Canrads are for better maneuverability..



Top back Pic, it is precisely because of the canards that low speeds for carrier landing were achieved.
There are countless documents, written and video, with Dassault people stating the fact.

Good day all, Tay.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> CISMOA would have been mandatory if we would have gone for F 18
> 
> Now there is NO NEED for it because Rafale is done


Yup. Exactly. Something those mindless F-18 promoters couldn't seem to fathom, the American deal contained oh so much more that India didn't want so no matter what price it was sold to India if would be a terrible deal.



PARIKRAMA said:


> price break up approx
> 
> 2 bases - Euro 1.1 Bn x 2 = 2.2 Bn
> Flyaway + weapons - Euro 2.7 Bn
> All support packages - Euro 2.1 Bn
> Customization - Euro 0.8 Bn
> 
> The flyaway + weapons - Euro 75 Mn or USD 84.75 Mn - the same as MMRCA $85 Mn
> 
> Removing weapons cost of USD 10-15 mn implies flyaway at USD 70-75 mn range or Euro 62-66 Mn.
> 
> after removing the VAT and adding marginal corporate profit, DA has given a solid deal to India where its going to use VOLUMES as a key to make humongous profit over next 20 years of production till 2035 and almost 5-6 decades of presence in Indian defense arena
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @Vauban @Taygibay


Bro post this in the ongoing live thread, some members asked for this and won't visit here so it would be a good for them to get a rough idea.

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## Su-11

Lol, they have reported in Euros so that the figure will seem less.
It's 8.8 billion dollars or 245 million dollars per fuckin plane!!

Since we are a rich country with zero poverty and starvation, we can afford this? Who on earth buys just 36 planes, that too for 8.8 billion dollars!! The logistics for this just 2 squadrons of 36 planes, the spares, the maintanance, the training, the specialized hangars.... OMG my head is spinning!

This is like the story of golden gates to protect the mud hut inside.


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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> Yup. Exactly. Something those mindless F-18 promoters couldn't seem to fathom, the American deal contained oh so much more that India didn't want so no matter what price it was sold to India if would be a terrible deal.


read these ss my good friend..











and the icing in the cake










notice the word "operational" benefits to USAF AND USN

all this from here






http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR1000/RR1021/RAND_RR1021.pdf

enjoy the truth of what USA really wants and think tanks says..

++
ps you remember i said about A&N base thing...

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## Sankpal

is there any news about mig 29 and mirage 2000 fighter plane modernization status?

how many fighters upgraded?


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## Srinivas

India is also planning to manufacture American jets either F16's or F18's or both of them. The production lines in USA are/will be closed but they will be running in India.


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## PARIKRAMA

the deal price break up

price break up approx

2 bases - Euro 1.1 Bn x 2 = 2.2 Bn
Flyaway + weapons - Euro 2.7 Bn
All support packages - Euro 2.1 Bn
Customization - Euro 0.8 Bn

The flyaway + weapons - Euro 75 Mn or USD 84.75 Mn - the same as MMRCA $85 Mn

Removing weapons cost of USD 10-15 mn implies flyaway at USD 70-75 mn range or Euro 62-66 Mn.

after removing the VAT and adding marginal corporate profit, DA has given a solid deal to India where its going to use VOLUMES as a key to make humongous profit over next 20 years of production till 2035 and almost 5-6 decades of presence in Indian defense arena

++ 
some more comments

base price was initially Euro 1.4 Bn but after much haggling it has been reduced to Euro 1.1 Bn..

Support package basically contains everything.. what could be further broken down in direct and indirect costs and technology cost...

modifications have come down a bit.. primarily the NG version of missiles are not ready... of course a part of support package cost built in has 2 active component costs
1. RBE 2 AESA partial codes
2. Spectra + upgrade partial codes.


posted in the sticky..

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## #hydra#

PARIKRAMA said:


> CONGRATULATIONS..
> 
> i said what i could after getting to know when i posted in the sticky..
> 
> i gave the hint on tuesday
> 
> View attachment 300545
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-192#post-8237913
> 
> it was good nobody picked it up too much then
> 
> 
> and then
> View attachment 300546
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-193#post-8242769
> 
> its in line with what i earlier said about less than Euro 8bn or less than Rs 60000 crs.. i was hoping for 56000 crs but i am still fine with 59000 crs..
> 
> potential for jets in merignac line is more like 100 and indian line is 300.. unless something changes drastically IAF+IN together will operate 400 rafales mostly the Rafale of F3R2 and NG designations..
> 
> Its gonna be a quasi 5th Gen and will provide us with a unmatched capability...
> 
> so its time for
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ps: time for multiple green ticks and positive ratings for me!!!


Boss it may sound as offtopic,but pls tell me about pakfa/fgfa.
Will it be materialised?

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## PARIKRAMA

Sankpal said:


> is there any news about mig 29 and mirage 2000 fighter plane modernization status?
> 
> how many fighters upgraded?




*‘Mirage 2000 upgrade for Air Force on track’*
NAYANIMA BASU

Upgraded models to sport longer range radars; have improved tactical awareness







Antoine Caput, Vice-President and Country Director (India) of Thales, has said the $2.5 billion-project to upgrade 51 Mirage 2000 fighter jets for the Indian Air Force is going as per schedule and four upgraded jets have been already delivered.

In an interview with _BusinessLine_, he said the firm is keen to make India its global manufacturing hub and the joint venture with Bharat Electronics (BEL) is progressing well. Excerpts:


*How has the progress of upgradation of the ageing Mirage 2000 aircraft been so far? Is it on track?*

*The project began in July 2011 and since then, Thales and Dassault Aviation have both been working on the upgradation of IAF’s Mirage 2000 fleet.

Four upgraded Mirage 2000 have been delivered to the IAF and the rest of the fleet is being upgraded by HAL with the support of Dassault Aviation and Thales teams as per the contract.*

*Will this upgrade enhance Air Force’s combat capabilities?*

The Mirage 2000’s capabilities will be significantly enhanced and the IAF will have a capable and potent platform for the next 20 years. The upgraded Mirage 2000s will sport longer range radars and improved tactical situation awareness.

They will also have longer-range weapons to engage simultaneous targets with greater stealth. The improved fighters will have an extended operating envelope, with the capability to engage ground targets whilst countering airborne threats.

*Recently, the top brass of the IAF expressed concerns over delay in the project. What was the issue?*

It is on track, as per schedule. We are working with all partners and in case of any challenge, we will address them as per the contract.

(This article was published on April 14, 2016)

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...ade-for-air-force-on-track/article8476332.ece

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## muhammadali233

Bad Guy said:


> *Rafale Deal Final, India to Buy 36 Fighter Jets for 7.8 bn Euros
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Congratulations if true.

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## PARIKRAMA

#hydra# said:


> Boss it may sound as offtopic,but pls tell me about pakfa/fgfa.
> Will it be materialised?


it will come.. stage 2 engine test and final prototypes will be out later in 2020-21.. thats when the 3 prototypes are expected..

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> read these ss my good friend..
> 
> View attachment 300598
> 
> 
> View attachment 300599
> 
> 
> and the icing in the cake
> 
> View attachment 300601
> 
> View attachment 300602
> 
> 
> notice the word "operational" benefits to USAF AND USN
> 
> all this from here
> 
> View attachment 300603
> 
> 
> http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR1000/RR1021/RAND_RR1021.pdf
> 
> enjoy the truth of what USA really wants and think tanks says..
> 
> ++
> ps you remember i said about A&N base thing...


Something that also sticks out to me here (and from some other sources I've seen post Carter's visit ) is a new line they are pushing. They understand that Indians generally find the idea of a US military presence in India unpalatable (no matter how you sell it- non-binding, peacetime only etc) so they have started to push the HADR angle now saying that the LSA (although it's not actually called that anymore, they've changed the name because they felt LSA had too many negative connotations ) will allow greater interoperability for HADR efforts in India with Indian forces. Except, tell me when was the last time India asked for any external help in dealing with its emergencies? India is itself a regional responder in emergencies, it doesn't ask others for such help nor does it need it. 


The US have calibrated this all wrong and no wonder they are getting nowhere with India. They are expecting India to bow down in front of them like the rest of their so-called "allies" and to be an extension of their military/policy makers. 


+ If you go to NDTV and watch the interview with Vishnu Som and SECDEF Ash Carter you'll see that he doesn't make a single reference (unprompted) to the sale of American fighters to India and he certainly doesn't mention any intention to green light the transfer of groundbreaking tech to India. The most he talked about were UGVs and some CBRN kit. 

I think Parrikar told Mr Carter what India wants and what India doesn't want and thus their side is recalibrating after getting very ahead of themselves.

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## #hydra#

PARIKRAMA said:


> it will come.. stage 2 engine test and final prototypes will be out later in 2020-21.. thats when the 3 prototypes are expected..


Tnq u...

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## sathya

PARIKRAMA said:


> *‘Mirage 2000 upgrade for Air Force on track’*
> NAYANIMA BASU
> 
> 
> Upgraded models to sport longer range radars; have improved tactical awareness
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Antoine Caput, Vice-President and Country Director (India) of Thales, has said the $2.5 billion-project to upgrade 51 Mirage 2000 fighter jets for the Indian Air Force is going as per schedule and four upgraded jets have been already delivered.
> 
> In an interview with _BusinessLine_, he said the firm is keen to make India its global manufacturing hub and the joint venture with Bharat Electronics (BEL) is progressing well. Excerpts:
> 
> 
> *How has the progress of upgradation of the ageing Mirage 2000 aircraft been so far? Is it on track?*
> 
> *The project began in July 2011 and since then, Thales and Dassault Aviation have both been working on the upgradation of IAF’s Mirage 2000 fleet.*
> 
> *Four upgraded Mirage 2000 have been delivered to the IAF and the rest of the fleet is being upgraded by HAL with the support of Dassault Aviation and Thales teams as per the contract.*
> 
> *Will this upgrade enhance Air Force’s combat capabilities?*
> 
> The Mirage 2000’s capabilities will be significantly enhanced and the IAF will have a capable and potent platform for the next 20 years. The upgraded Mirage 2000s will sport longer range radars and improved tactical situation awareness.
> 
> They will also have longer-range weapons to engage simultaneous targets with greater stealth. The improved fighters will have an extended operating envelope, with the capability to engage ground targets whilst countering airborne threats.
> 
> *Recently, the top brass of the IAF expressed concerns over delay in the project. What was the issue?*
> 
> It is on track, as per schedule. We are working with all partners and in case of any challenge, we will address them as per the contract.
> 
> (This article was published on April 14, 2016)
> 
> http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...ade-for-air-force-on-track/article8476332.ece




IRST not included in this Rafale deal ?
No standard weapon along with Rafale ?

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## Blue Marlin

PARIKRAMA said:


> the deal price break up
> 
> price break up approx
> 
> 2 bases - Euro 1.1 Bn x 2 = 2.2 Bn
> Flyaway + weapons - Euro 2.7 Bn
> All support packages - Euro 2.1 Bn
> Customization - Euro 0.8 Bn
> 
> The flyaway + weapons - Euro 75 Mn or USD 84.75 Mn - the same as MMRCA $85 Mn
> 
> Removing weapons cost of USD 10-15 mn implies flyaway at USD 70-75 mn range or Euro 62-66 Mn.
> 
> after removing the VAT and adding marginal corporate profit, DA has given a solid deal to India where its going to use VOLUMES as a key to make humongous profit over next 20 years of production till 2035 and almost 5-6 decades of presence in Indian defense arena
> 
> ++
> some more comments
> 
> base price was initially Euro 1.4 Bn but after much haggling it has been reduced to Euro 1.1 Bn..
> 
> Support package basically contains everything.. what could be further broken down in direct and indirect costs and technology cost...
> 
> modifications have come down a bit.. primarily the NG version of missiles are not ready... of course a part of support package cost built in has 2 active component costs
> 1. RBE 2 AESA partial codes
> 2. Spectra + upgrade partial codes.
> 
> 
> posted in the sticky..


where will the rafales be based?

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## Su-11

> the deal price break up
> 
> price break up approx
> 
> 2 bases - Euro 1.1 Bn x 2 = 2.2 Bn
> Flyaway + weapons - Euro 2.7 Bn
> All support packages - Euro 2.1 Bn
> Customization - Euro 0.8 Bn
> 
> The flyaway + weapons - Euro 75 Mn or USD 84.75 Mn - the same as MMRCA $85 Mn
> 
> Removing weapons cost of USD 10-15 mn implies flyaway at USD 70-75 mn range or Euro 62-66 Mn.
> 
> after removing the VAT and adding marginal corporate profit, DA has given a solid deal to India where its going to use VOLUMES as a key to make humongous profit over next 20 years of production till 2035 and almost 5-6 decades of presence in Indian defense arena
> 
> ++
> some more comments
> 
> base price was initially Euro 1.4 Bn but after much haggling it has been reduced to Euro 1.1 Bn..
> 
> Support package basically contains everything.. what could be further broken down in direct and indirect costs and technology cost...
> 
> modifications have come down a bit.. primarily the NG version of missiles are not ready... of course a part of support package cost built in has 2 active component costs
> 1. RBE 2 AESA partial codes
> 2. Spectra + upgrade partial codes.
> 
> 
> posted in the sticky..


Nice fairy tales.
We are living in at a time where even official sources are heavily biased towards military procurement, and here we have fan boys polishing it further to make it seem like its a good deal.


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## PARIKRAMA

@Picdelamirand-oil @Abingdonboy @Taygibay 

_Under the proposed deal, French companies apart from Dassault Aviation, will provide* several aeronautics, electronics and micro-electronics technologies under the offset obligation.* Companies like Safran and Thales will join Dassault in providing state-of-art technologies in* stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles and materials for electronics and micro-electronics.*_

said by Nitin Gokhale
http://bharatshakti.in/after-hard-bargain-rafale-deal-price-finalised/


++ i said RBE 2 and Spectra +upgrades partial codes..



sathya said:


> IRST not included in this Rafale deal ?


customizations

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## PARIKRAMA

Blue Marlin said:


> where will the rafales be based?


have to check...

Probably in east and west both sides 1-1 base.. Mirage bases may be upgraded for future Rafales..



sathya said:


> ?
> No standard weapon along with Rafale ?



weapons are part of jets+weapons specs.. not too much ordered .. bare minimum.. we have good MICA already with Mirage deal.. so limited weapons..

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## PARIKRAMA

Su-11 said:


> Nice fairy tales.
> We are living in at a time where even official sources are heavily biased towards military procurement, and here we have fan boys polishing it further to make it seem like its a good deal.



nah.. fan boy is very small..

i make a living making deals for dassault...

i am an agent..an arms dealer..i am employed by dassault..

ya deal is bad.. but then why should i care.. i am getting a hefty commission!!!

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## Spectre

PARIKRAMA said:


> nah.. fan boy is very small..
> 
> i make a living making deals for dassault...
> 
> i am an agent..an arms dealer..i am employed by dassault..
> 
> ya deal is bad.. but then why should i care.. i am getting a hefty commission!!!



Oh boy! First time I have seen you loosing your cool... I was beginning to think that you were a chatbot!

Btw @Taygibay are you a chatbot?

*Tay, Microsoft's AI chatbot, gets a crash course in racism from Twitter*

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> nah.. fan boy is very small..
> 
> i make a living making deals for dassault...
> 
> i am an agent..an arms dealer..i am employed by dassault..
> 
> ya deal is bad.. but then why should i care.. i am getting a hefty commission!!!


Whoa bro, and where's my commission? I've been an ardent supporter of the truth this whole time

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## PARIKRAMA

Spectre said:


> Oh boy! First time I have seen you loosing your cool... I was beginning to think that you were a chatbot!
> 
> Btw @Taygibay are you a chatbot?
> 
> *Tay, Microsoft's AI chatbot, gets a crash course in racism from Twitter*


no actually i am having fun.. not angry..

preparing a project report by the side.. lol.. multi tasking.. hahahha

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## Spectre

PARIKRAMA said:


> no actually i am having fun.. not angry..
> 
> preparing a project report by the side.. lol.. multi tasking.. hahahha



Pfffft! you can retire in Bahamas with all the money DA is paying you

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> Whoa bro, and where's my commission? I've been an ardent supporter of the truth this whole time


i will cut you a deal too.. don worry..

we will live lavishly in paris.. thats the haute couture place for us.. nice cars, nice homes, nice wine, lovely women.. this deal will make us live life king size for life..



Spectre said:


> Pfffft! you can retire in Bahamas with all the money DA is paying you


no tax heaven is safe anymore.. so better i be in france.. paris is good...

surely DA will reward me handsomely for my accomplishment..

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## Grevion

Finally!! They are coming.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> thats why i said part finance bcz surely other stake holders would be involved..
> 
> Good finally its done.. so pic sir, any chance you coming in as consultant in the Indian venture.. you can try surely.. a man of your caliber can change our Aerospace segment,,


My last work was to be consultant for the Galileo program, but I'm too old now to continue. Can you imagine that Trappier was my intern?

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## Taygibay

@Spectre Yes, I had seen that and found it comical. 

I'm still the original though, have been using the name since before 2010
whereas Microsoft started theirs a month back : https://www.tay.ai

And it seems she's a girl too judging by her profile pic,




​Plus, I'm not racist, Tay.

P.S.


Picdelamirand-oil said:


> My last work was to be consultant for the Galileo program



Pôvre petiot, so he already knows about _Indian slow_ programs!

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## Spectre

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> My last work was to be consultant for the Galileo program, but I'm too old now to continue. Can you imagine that Trappier was my intern?






Taygibay said:


> @Spectre Yes, I had seen that and found it comical.
> 
> I'm still the original though, have been using the name since before 2010
> whereas Microsoft started theirs a month back : https://www.tay.ai
> 
> And it seems she's a girl too judging by her profile pic,
> View attachment 300607
> ​Plus, I'm not racist, Tay.



Not biting it, you gotta take the turing's test otherwise I am sending






P.S. Blade runner pic if you miss the reference

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## BON PLAN

mehboobkz said:


> 9 billion USD divided by 36 aircrafts = Very expensive Item.
> 
> India still got robbed.


Bad looser !

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## #hydra#

PARIKRAMA said:


> CONGRATULATIONS..
> 
> i said what i could after getting to know when i posted in the sticky..
> 
> i gave the hint on tuesday
> 
> View attachment 300548
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-192#post-8237913
> 
> it was good nobody picked it up too much then
> 
> 
> and then
> View attachment 300547
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-193#post-8242769
> 
> its in line with what i earlier said about less than Euro 8bn or less than Rs 60000 crs.. i was hoping for 56000 crs but i am still fine with 59000 crs..
> 
> potential for jets in merignac line is more like 100 and indian line is 300.. unless something changes drastically IAF*+IN* together will operate 400 rafales mostly the Rafale of F3R2 and NG designations..
> 
> Its gonna be a quasi 5th Gen and will provide us with a unmatched capability...
> 
> so its time for
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ps: time for multiple green ticks and positive ratings for me!!!


How is it possible for IN to have an american EMALS &non us fighter jet,rumors says US won't sell us EMALS with out f35/f18.


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## Abingdonboy

#hydra# said:


> How is it possible for IN to have an american EMALS &non us fighter jet,rumors says US won't sell us EMALS with out f35/f18.


That's a bit of a myth. The S-70B and E-2D deals will compensate the Americans (to a degree) but they aren't going to dictate to India what fighter it flies off its own home built carrier. Either way, EMALS is a long long way away, I don't think it will be present on the IAC-2 at this point. 

Now the Rafale deal has gone through it is a certainty the IN is going for the Rafale-M, Boeing haven't even made a presentation to the IN since 2012, Dassault have made a number of them in the last 18 months. The Americans had their chance, India was fair and allowed them to make their case even after being ejected from the MMRCA the first time around and they came back but weren't even offering a fraction of what Dassualt were and their offer was simply unpalatable to India so no dice.

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## BON PLAN

+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> I remember the initial mrca competition was around 11 billion USD for 126 planes. How did to balloon into 7.8 billion Euros for 36?
> 
> This is far too pricey and with the arrival of 5th gen fighters in the next few years how can this deal be justified?
> 
> 7.8 billion could kick start a national jet engine plan or an *indigenous* 5th gen project.


No official datas for these initial 11 billion USD. Just tabloids news.



+4vsgorillas-Apebane said:


> There is a difference between exorbitant and expensive.
> 
> Expensive can be justified but exorbitant is getting ripped off.
> 
> Remember the price tag charged by the French to upgrade 24 mirage fighters? They charged 2.4 billion USD.


What 24 Mirage ? Your datas are wrong I'm afraid.

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## Su-11

PARIKRAMA said:


> nah.. fan boy is very small..
> 
> i make a living making deals for dassault...
> 
> i am an agent..an arms dealer..i am employed by dassault..
> 
> ya deal is bad.. but then why should i care.. i am getting a hefty commission!!!


Nah, it requires a certain amount of caliber to be an arms dealer. I'll just stick with "Ohh look at the prueeetty plane. I'm glad my country has bought it. Now I can go to pakistani forum and brag about it to the pakistanis, while I just close my nose with a handkerchief when I pass by the slum on my way to college tomorrow" type.


----------



## Nilgiri

Abingdonboy said:


> That's a bit of a myth. The S-70B and E-2D deals will compensate the Americans (to a degree) but they aren't going to dictate to India what fighter it flies off its own home built carrier. Either way, EMALS is a long long way away, I don't think it will be present on the IAC-2 at this point.
> 
> Now the Rafale deal has gone through it is a certainty the IN is going for the Rafale-M, Boeing haven't even made a presentation to the IN since 2012, Dassault have made a number of them in the last 18 months. The Americans had their chance, India was fair and allowed them to make their case even after being ejected from the MMRCA the first time around and they came back but weren't even offering a fraction of what Dassualt were and their offer was simply unpalatable to India so no dice.



Buddy, thanks for the tag firstly.

Second, some TOIlet articles have been loudly braying there is absolutely no make in India component in these 36 that are soon to be signed formally. I was under the impression that there is (through offsets to Indian companies etc.).

Can you tell me roughly how much % you think/expect of the total value of this first tranche to be directed "back" to India?

Also does this deal cover the setting up of any components of a future production line within India (i.e capex, ToT external to direct aircraft material - jigs, tooling etc..)...or will that be in a future deal.

What is the final number of Rafales that you foresee + potential timeframe.

All these questions are directed to @PARIKRAMA et al. too.

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## Masterhunter

Nilgiri said:


> Buddy, thanks for the tag firstly.
> 
> Second, some TOIlet articles have been loudly braying there is absolutely no make in India component in these 36 that are soon to be signed formally. I was under the impression that there is (through offsets to Indian companies etc.).
> 
> Can you tell me roughly how much % you think/expect of the total value of this first tranche to be directed "back" to India?
> 
> Also does this deal cover the setting up of any components of a future production line within India (i.e capex, ToT external to direct aircraft material - jigs, tooling etc..)...or will that be in a future deal.
> 
> What is the final number of Rafales that you foresee + potential timeframe.
> 
> All these questions are directed to @PARIKRAMA et al. too.


The deal had 50% offset... So expect about 4.4 billion dollar investment back into India....

And finally a saga ended.. And if timelines are true..18 months... First rafale will be flying in IAF in early 2018... This means dassult was confident of Indian order .... Or else it would have taken 30-36 months to deliver first plane...
If early 2018 is first plane...we may get all 36 by 2020-21.. After which MII line will be functional....
Good day today ...

Also if 18 rafale M is coming to India ... As follow on... They will come only in 2022-23.. And two years for ITBF (as someone said)... So we are looking for 2025 for these 18 to be integrated on A carrier...
Don't u think if IAC-1 follow on is ordered (with 10-15% increase in tonnage)... It will also be out for sea trials in 2025... As it will take about 7-8 yrs if ordered and work starts in 2017..
@PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar 002 @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @Abingdonboy

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## PARIKRAMA

i


Nilgiri said:


> Buddy, thanks for the tag firstly.
> 
> Second, some TOIlet articles have been loudly braying there is absolutely no make in India component in these 36 that are soon to be signed formally. I was under the impression that there is (through offsets to Indian companies etc.).
> 
> Can you tell me roughly how much % you think/expect of the total value of this first tranche to be directed "back" to India?
> 
> Also does this deal cover the setting up of any components of a future production line within India (i.e capex, ToT external to direct aircraft material - jigs, tooling etc..)...or will that be in a future deal.
> 
> What is the final number of Rafales that you foresee + potential timeframe.
> 
> All these questions are directed to @PARIKRAMA et al. too.


Offsets are there .. 50%.. That's where manufacturing line comes in..

Tech share is also there.. Tranche 1 is 90..all in all 5 tranches will come ..

There will be more orders for Merignac line ..

Expectations are almost 300 jets plus as users are both IAF and IN

with tranche1 90 and flyaway 36 it's now 126 as first step..

Expect first only 36 signature followed by MII partner announcement and MII deal sign in coming months..
..

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## v9s

Abba_Dabba_Jabba said:


> Bhai you are fighting a lost battle here, it is of no use. Plus you are from a nation which asks for a subsidies for fighter jet , can't afford to fight internal terrorism on your own. If you are following a proper news & articles then you must also know that your nation literary begs for assistance from USA every year. And we don't ask for such financial assistance that is called Sovereignty, which your entire population has no idea about.
> 
> Ontopic: Can somebody plz explain who will be the final authority to sign the deal after *3-4 weeks ? *Is there any meeting arranged, BTW Nicolas Sarkozy is in Delhi, may be he has got something to do with the deal..



http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...t-of-US-economic-aid/articleshow/48093123.cms

kekekekkekekekke



Abingdonboy said:


> The problem is not India's defence spending but their mindset, India is now suddenly pulling away and they have no ability to keep up with being entirely beholden to the IMF so they have started crying "arms race arms race".



So it's kosher when you do it. But when Pakistan makes the same noise, it isn't?


----------



## PARIKRAMA

Su-11 said:


> Nah, it requires a certain amount of caliber to be an arms dealer. I'll just stick with "Ohh look at the prueeetty plane. I'm glad my country has bought it. Now I can go to pakistani forum and brag about it to the pakistanis, while I just close my nose with a handkerchief when I pass by the slum on my way to college tomorrow" type.



Oh nice you told the location of my next swachh bharat mission..

Ya will clean the slum of the smell and see how I can contribute in their development of life and their living conditions..

So that in future I don't need to close the nose and put on a handkerchief..

Ps- you can also suggest where I can keep the poster of my pretty plane.. So that everyday when I wake up, I could see it, feel good and start my day..

May be a sticky here also in PDF.. So that folks like you can see and burn that ppl like me who are 'fanboy' are happy and are 'bragging' ..

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## Nilgiri

Masterhunter said:


> The deal had 50% offset... So expect about 4.4 billion dollar investment back into India....
> 
> And finally a saga ended.. And if timelines are true..18 months... First rafale will be flying in IAF in early 2018... This means dassult was confident of Indian order .... Or else it would have taken 30-36 months to deliver first plane...
> If early 2018 is first plane...we may get all 36 by 2020-21.. After which MII line will be functional....
> Good day today ...
> 
> Also if 18 rafale M is coming to India ... As follow on... They will come only in 2022-23.. And two years for ITBF (as someone said)... So we are looking for 2025 for these 18 to be integrated on A carrier...
> Don't u think if IAC-1 follow on is ordered (with 10-15% increase in tonnage)... It will also be out for sea trials in 2025... As it will take about 7-8 yrs if ordered and work starts in 2017..
> @PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar 002 @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @Abingdonboy



I sincerely hope that this is the last major fighter acquisition from overseas (arguably along with FGFA). With the ToT and greater inclusion of private players + size of Indian economy and local margins+scales available, there should be no more excuse in future to pay foreign margins. If India is to be a great power, she has to develop + manufacture in house for the major number airframes of all major roles she requires.

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## dadeechi

Last month I said that RAFALE deal would be announced in 3 weeks.

@BON PLAN when I reconfirmed last week that the deal would be announced in a week you were wondering about my sources and said that price negotiations were still on. We both should be happy that I was correct.

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## kmc_chacko

*Rafale jets: Negotiations between India and France over landmark deal in 'final stages'*
The negotiations over the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets have enered the "final stages" as both India and France have managed to narrow down their differences over the pricing.

Government sources said that the deal has not been concluded yet but it is in "final stages".

The development came nearly four months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Francois Hollande signed a memorandum of agreement (MoU) to purchase 36 Rafale combat jets.




A Rafale jet. Image courtesy: WikiCommons

The Indian side has been negotiating hard to bring down the price of the Rafale deal.

Sources said the price for 36 Rafales, as per the UPA tender, keeping the cost escalation and dollar rate in mind, comes to a little over Rs 65,000 crore. This includes the cost involved in making changes India has sought in the aircraft, including Israeli helmet mounted display and some specific weaponry, among others.

"The effort is to bring down the price to less than Euros 8 billion (Rs 59,000 crore)," the sources said.

Sources said the French have more or less agreed to Indian terms.

The expectation is that the final deal will be clinched by May-end.

The deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and creating thousands of new jobs in India through the offsets.

In fact, the toughest phase in the negotiations that began in July 2015 - three months after Modi announced in Paris India's plan to purchase 36 Rafale jets - was to get the French to agree to 50 per cent offsets in the deal.

Initially, Dassault Aviation was willing to agree to reinvest only 30 per cent of the value of its contract in Indian entities to meet the offset obligations.

The French side finally agreed to invest 50 per cent of the value following a phone conversation between Modi and Hollande late last year.

The commercial negotiations, as in the pricing of the planes, equipment and other issues, actually began only in mid-January this year.

Under the proposed deal, French companies apart from Dassault Aviation, will provide several aeronautics, electronics and micro-electronics technologies to comply with the offset obligation.

Companies like Safran and Thales will join Dassault in providing state-of-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles and materials for electronics and micro-electronics.

http://www.firstpost.com/india/rafa...er-landmark-deal-in-final-stages-2732136.html


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## kmc_chacko

*Finally, A Deal. India To Buy 36 Rafale Jets For $8.8 Billion*
All India | Reported by Sudhi Ranjan Sen | Updated: April 15, 2016 20:52 IST







The first Rafale fighter jets will take at least 18 months to arrive in India

NEW DELHI: 
*HIGHLIGHTS*

France had asked for $12 billion
First planes will take at least 18 months to deliver
French firms to invest $3billion in India in technology transfer

India's much-negotiated deal with France for 36 fighter jets is final - it will buy the French-made Rafale planes for 8.8 billion dollars, said sources to NDTV. The agreement is to be signed within three weeks and it will take at least 18 months for India to get the first lot of aircraft.

France initially sought nearly 12 billion dollars for the sale of 36 fighters complete with weapon systems. India has closed the deal nearly 3 billion dollars below France's asking price.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi during a visit to Paris last year confirmed India's order of 36 read-to-fly jets. Before that, the Defence Ministry had sanctioned the purchase of 120 planes, but the deal was scaled down dramatically after both sides were unable for years to agree on the unit price and the assembling of the planes in India.

The Rafales are made by manufacturer Dassault Aviation. During PM Modi's visit, the countries agreed that the deal would be handled between their governments.


The Air Force has stressed it needs to start replacing its ageing jet fleet from 2017 to effectively check the capabilities of Pakistan and China.





The Rafale fighter is manufactured by Dassault Aviation

As the negotiations stretched - and a deal was not reached during French President Francois Hollande's visit to India in January, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said he is "a tough negotiator" and needed time to ensure a good bargain. The Air Force has repeatedly been asking for its ageing warplane fleet to be urgently modernised.
Sources say that as part of the government's push to develop and support military manufacturing at home, in exchange for selling India off-the-shelf Rafales, French companies including Dassault will have to invest three billion dollars in India to help firms here with stealth-capability and radar technologies. France had initially agreed to a 30 per cent offset obligation to be invested in India, while India had sought a minimum of 50 per cent. France has now agreed for 50 per cent offset obligation.






http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/rafa...ndia-and-france-for-7-8-billion-euros-1395958

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## Ankit Kumar 002

@PARIKRAMA 
Do you have any specific information about Meteor AAM in the deal? 

Also it was touted that GIAT will form a JV with Indian companies to make guns, canons, etc. Anything about that?

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## kmc_chacko

*India to buy 36 Rafale aircraft from France for 9 billion euros: report*
New Delhi: India and France have arrived at an agreement on the price of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft that Asia’s third largest economy is to buy at an estimated cost of almost €9 billion, _NDTV_ news channel reported on Friday.

The induction of the aircraft is expected to add much-needed punch to India’s air power.

The agreement is to be signed within three weeks and it will take at least 18 months for India to get the first lot of aircraft, the news channel reported.

When contacted, a person in the defence ministry familiar with the development said discussions were still going on and no deal had been finalised as yet. Spokespersons at the French embassy in New Delhi were unavailable for comment.

According to the _NDTV_ report, France had put a price tag of €12 billion on the 36 fighter aircraft, complete with weapon systems.

The deal, if it comes through, is expected to add to India’s fast depleting Indian Air Force (IAF) squadron strength. Senior IAF officials are on record saying that India’s fighter squadrons are not equipped to deal with a two-front war if challenged to do so. India would need 42-25 squadrons to fight a two-front war while its current strength was about 30 squadrons.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi during a visit to Paris last year confirmed India’s order of 36 read-to-fly jets manufactured by Dassault Aviation SA.

Before that, the defence ministry had sanctioned the purchase of 120 medium range multi-role aircraft, but the deal was scaled down dramatically after both sides were unable to agree—for years—on the price of aircraft and the assembling of the planes in India.

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/7Z...le-aircraft-from-France-for-9-billion-eu.html

*In landmark defence deal, India, France finalise Rafale deal at €7.8 bn*
In a breakthrough defence deal that has come after protracted negotiations, India and France have finalised purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets.

This is a €7.8 billion deal between the country, one which was mentioned during French President Francois Hollande's visit to India. In January this year, a joint statement between Hollande and Modi had referred to the 'conclusion' of the Rafale fighter aircrafts in flyaway condition, 'except for some financial issues.

India will buy 36 Rafale jets for €7.8 billion, or nearly Rs 59,000 crore, according to an _NDTV_ report. The jets have been manufactured by Dassault Aviation.




A Rafale jet. Image courtesy: WikiCommons

In February, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had said in an interview that the price of the Rafale jets is a problem, but that all other issues have been resolved.

"If I am buying something, I cannot hurry on the price, agreement also does not limit the time frame," he had said.

India signed an inter-governmental pact with France to buy 36 Rafale fighters but the price negotiations had held up the deal.

The deal would includes two types of missiles and bombs, training of pilots and base facilities for the planes.

During Hollande's visit to India, a memorandum of understanding (MoU) was signed for the purchase of the Rafale jets. The French President had said that the financial issues would be ironed out with time.

http://www.firstpost.com/india/in-l...lise-rafale-deal-at-7-8-bn-euros-2732136.html

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## punit

kmc_chacko said:


> *Finally, A Deal. India To Buy 36 Rafale Jets For $8.8 Billion*
> All India | Reported by Sudhi Ranjan Sen | Updated: April 15, 2016 20:52 IST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first Rafale fighter jets will take at least 18 months to arrive in India
> 
> NEW DELHI:
> *HIGHLIGHTS*
> 
> France had asked for $12 billion
> First planes will take at least 18 months to deliver
> French firms to invest $3billion in India in technology transfer
> 
> India's much-negotiated deal with France for 36 fighter jets is final - it will buy the French-made Rafale planes for 8.8 billion dollars, said sources to NDTV. The agreement is to be signed within three weeks and it will take at least 18 months for India to get the first lot of aircraft.
> 
> France initially sought nearly 12 billion dollars for the sale of 36 fighters complete with weapon systems. India has closed the deal nearly 3 billion dollars below France's asking price.
> 
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi during a visit to Paris last year confirmed India's order of 36 read-to-fly jets. Before that, the Defence Ministry had sanctioned the purchase of 120 planes, but the deal was scaled down dramatically after both sides were unable for years to agree on the unit price and the assembling of the planes in India.
> 
> The Rafales are made by manufacturer Dassault Aviation. During PM Modi's visit, the countries agreed that the deal would be handled between their governments.
> 
> 
> The Air Force has stressed it needs to start replacing its ageing jet fleet from 2017 to effectively check the capabilities of Pakistan and China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rafale fighter is manufactured by Dassault Aviation
> 
> As the negotiations stretched - and a deal was not reached during French President Francois Hollande's visit to India in January, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said he is "a tough negotiator" and needed time to ensure a good bargain. The Air Force has repeatedly been asking for its ageing warplane fleet to be urgently modernised.
> Sources say that as part of the government's push to develop and support military manufacturing at home, in exchange for selling India off-the-shelf Rafales, French companies including Dassault will have to invest three billion dollars in India to help firms here with stealth-capability and radar technologies. France had initially agreed to a 30 per cent offset obligation to be invested in India, while India had sought a minimum of 50 per cent. France has now agreed for 50 per cent offset obligation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/rafa...ndia-and-france-for-7-8-billion-euros-1395958


i will wait till govt says anything ! to many smoke and mirror in this case!

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## punit

Su-11 said:


> Nah, it requires a certain amount of caliber to be an arms dealer. I'll just stick with "Ohh look at the prueeetty plane. I'm glad my country has bought it. Now I can go to pakistani forum and brag about it to the pakistanis, while I just close my nose with a handkerchief when I pass by the slum on my way to college tomorrow" type.


and not buying Rafale will improve the condition of Slums in some alternate universe !



Spectre said:


> Are you effing kidding me????? I would any day take zero Rafales for a peaceful and friendly neighbourhood.
> 
> The resources we spend on defence is out of necessity without the need they provide marginal utility.


peaceful and friendly neighborhood. is utopia .. Rafale is reality.


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## kmc_chacko

punit said:


> i will wait till govt says anything ! to many smoke and mirror in this case!



If this is true then MoD should be congratulated for its negotiation skills for bring down from $12 Billion to $8.8 Billion.

Further will MoD pursue with F-18s & F-16s offer ?

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## SR-91

PARIKRAMA said:


> base price was initially Euro 1.4 Bn but after much haggling it has been reduced to Euro 1.1 Bn..
> 
> Support package basically contains everything.. what could be further broken down in direct and indirect costs and technology cost...
> 
> modifications have come down a bit.. primarily the NG version of missiles are not ready... of course a part of support package cost built in has 2 active component costs
> 1. RBE 2 AESA partial codes
> 2. Spectra + upgrade partial codes.
> 3. Few other items codes
> 
> all are partial codes implying India can add and customize but i dont think we can transfer and copy to other jets except one specific program AMCA where cooperation officially will be declared for specific technology help.
> 
> This actually allows us to integrate the indian weapon systems and later test+certify it...
> 
> Even though we like MICA+meteor combo we may end up with MICA+Astra and even a possibility of Derby+Derby ER+ AstraMk2 is there..
> 
> India is negotiating with rafael industries to locally make Derby owing to the fact that Derby,python and Derby ER will become mainstay of LCA fleet which is bound to reach 300 jets.. so wont be surprised if they like to use the same in Rafales as well over time..
> 
> The brahmos original plan of mounting is now taken over by 42 dedicated Su30 MkI.. the NG Brahmos is 5-7 years away.. so when it comes it will be integrated..
> 
> Thus the customization part cost came down partially with technology codes payment and doing certain customization later when available
> 
> the price of jets+weapons is more or less fixed and is a marked improvement from earlier $93 mn to now $85 Mn or Euro 70-75 Mn




@PARIKRAMA 
Bro you mentioned 300 LCA will be built does this include Indian Navy as well? This is the 1st time I'm hearing a number of 300. What will it include?

Also.....90 Rafales will be built in India, does the contract have an option of 45+ jets as a follow-on order?

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## Skull and Bones

kmc_chacko said:


> If this is true then MoD should be congratulated for its negotiation skills for bring down from $12 Billion to $8.8 Billion.
> 
> Further will MoD pursue with F-18s & F-16s offer ?



There's no need for that now. Next step is discussion on manufacturing rest of the aircrafts in India.

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## C130

the next 36 better be $3.5 billion


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## mingle

Thanks God .


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## Nilgiri

kmc_chacko said:


> If this is true then MoD should be congratulated for its negotiation skills for bring down from $12 Billion to $8.8 Billion.
> 
> Further will MoD pursue with F-18s & F-16s offer ?



Hold on there cowboy. Lets first wait for it to be signed and also see what the 8.8 billion exactly covers. My feeling is that certain things are not covered compared to what the 12 billion compared.

Also the main discussion is in the main rafale thread. You may find more useful info there too for this latest news.

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## SQ8

Finally a deal that is to be yet signed. 
Just get it done and move on.

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## mingle

kmc_chacko said:


> If this is true then MoD should be congratulated for its negotiation skills for bring down from $12 Billion to $8.8 Billion.
> 
> Further will MoD pursue with F-18s & F-16s offer ?


I dont think So u already looking 12 billions here not any time soon .


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## punit

kmc_chacko said:


> If this is true then MoD should be congratulated for its negotiation skills for bring down from $12 Billion to $8.8 Billion.
> 
> Further will MoD pursue with F-18s & F-16s offer ?


F18 and F16 were bogeymen !

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## PARIKRAMA

SR-91 said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> Bro you mentioned 300 LCA will be built does this include Indian Navy as well? This is the 1st time I'm hearing a number of 300. What will it include?
> 
> Also.....90 Rafales will be built in India, does the contract have an option of 45+ jets as a follow-on order?



Its what has been discussed. The present LCA orders is just tranche 1. thats for MK1A product.. post that a repeat order will be given for same product line or an improved version based on the development plan results.

Naval ones are touted to be capped at 40-60. Mostly the real naval plane wont be of light category so its more of a technology proof towards AMCA naval variant.

Rafales 90 are tranche 1. There would be more tranches. For the amount we are paying and for the fact that there would be more orders to Merignac line for quicker induction schedules, the numbers needed are much bigger.

with just 90, the MII establishment and cost incurred wont be justified

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## Manindra

Wait, in some report its saying that deal cost 9 billion Euro aka 10.15 billion US dollar, then from where 8.8 billion US dollar figure come from ?


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## Nilgiri

Manindra said:


> Wait, in some report its saying that deal cost 9 billion Euro aka 10.15 billion US dollar, then from where 8.8 billion US dollar figure come from ?



I'm hearing 7.8 billion Euro. Lets wait for the final deal...too much friggin speculation.

What matters is the fine print on whats covered by the final price anyway.

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> Its what has been discussed. The present LCA orders is just tranche 1. thats for MK1A product.. post that a repeat order will be given for same product line or an improved version based on the development plan results.
> 
> Naval ones are touted to be capped at 40-60. Mostly the real naval plane wont be of light category so its more of a technology proof towards AMCA naval variant.
> 
> Rafales 90 are tranche 1. There would be more tranches. For the amount we are paying and for the fact that there would be more orders to Merignac line for quicker induction schedules, the numbers needed are much bigger.
> 
> with just 90, the MII establishment and cost incurred wont be justified



How long is the production line open for within France (given they just have a relatively few number of orders from other countries and are wrapping up their own domestic requirement)? Are we just moving the production line from there to India in essence? It would be advantage for India if so since any future rafale exports to other countries will be sourced from Indian based production line. I wonder if this is on the anvil as part of the future tranches to make them more cost effective/viable.

@Vauban @Taygibay votre opinion SVP

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## Chinese-Dragon

Wasn't the original deal $11 billion for 126 Rafale?

Now it's almost as much ($9 billion) for only 36 Rafale?

That is some serious inflation.

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## PARIKRAMA

Nilgiri said:


> How long is the production line open for within France (given they just have a relatively few number of orders from other countries and are wrapping up their own domestic requirement)? Are we just moving the production line from there to India in essence? It would be advantage for India if so since any future rafale exports to other countries will be sourced from Indian based production line. I wonder if this is on the anvil as part of the future tranches to make them more cost effective/viable.
> 
> @Vauban @Taygibay votre opinion SVP


its a capacity expansion plan not transferring the line..
Implying Indian line will exist independent of Merignac line which will be there for long long time..

There are markets to cater too via Merignac line.. Even we ourselves may order more from Merignac owing to immediate needs for IN jets.

Only ydy in another forum , a professional called Vstol says IAC1 may sport Rafales.. such a case IAC1 is suppose to come by 2019 and thus a contingent of 42-45 Rafale M cant be build in Indian line and has to be then ordered from Merignac..

Some part of our line will be used for exports but primarily our own order catering would be there as order is big and timelines are set with late production penalty

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## Shinigami

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Wasn't the original deal $11 billion for 126 Rafale?
> 
> Now it's almost as much ($9 billion) for only 36 Rafale?
> 
> That is some serious inflation.



the $11 billion for 126 aircraft was drafted almost 2 decades back, so obviously its inflation

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## Chinese-Dragon

Shinigami said:


> the $11 billion for 126 aircraft was drafted almost 2 decades back, so obviously its inflation



Two decades? The Rafale won the Indian deal in 2012, only a few years ago.

Almost 300% inflation (in the per aircraft costs) for a few years isn't exactly normal.

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## Nilgiri

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Wasn't the original deal $11 billion for 126 Rafale?
> 
> Now it's almost as much ($9 billion) for only 36 Rafale?
> 
> That is some serious inflation.



We have covered this many times.

The numbers do not cover the same things. The former is just mostly airframe based. The current numbers are total life cycles costs +weapons.


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## #hydra#

PARIKRAMA said:


> its a capacity expansion plan not transferring the line..
> Implying Indian line will exist independent of Merignac line which will be there for long long time..
> 
> There are markets to cater too via Merignac line.. Even we ourselves may order more from Merignac owing to immediate needs for IN jets.
> 
> Only ydy in another forum , a professional called Vstol says IAC1 may sport Rafales.. such a case IAC1 is suppose to come by 2019 and thus a contingent of 42-45 Rafale M cant be build in Indian line and has to be then ordered from Merignac..
> 
> Some part of our line will be used for exports but primarily our own order catering would be there as order is big and timelines are set with late production penalty


I think rafale needs ti be modified for its operation from iac1,mainly for foldable wings. It will be a coatly affair.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Its what has been discussed. The present LCA orders is just tranche 1. thats for MK1A product.. post that a repeat order will be given for same product line or an improved version based on the development plan results.
> 
> Naval ones are touted to be capped at 40-60. Mostly the real naval plane wont be of light category so its more of a technology proof towards AMCA naval variant.
> 
> Rafales 90 are tranche 1. There would be more tranches. For the amount we are paying and for the fact that there would be more orders to Merignac line for quicker induction schedules, the numbers needed are much bigger.
> 
> with just 90, the MII establishment and cost incurred wont be justified


Is there any chance of lcamk2 flying for iaf?


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## Shinigami

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Two decades? The Rafale won the Indian deal in 2012, only a few years ago.
> 
> Almost 300% inflation (in the per aircraft costs) for a few years isn't exactly normal.


 its 126 aircraft not rafales einstein 

The IAF projected a requirement for about 126 aircraft in 2001
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_competition


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## Chinese-Dragon

Shinigami said:


> its 126 aircraft not rafales einstein



Huh?

Indian sources (and the Indian defence minster) clearly said 126 Rafales:

Deal for 126 Rafale jets ‘economically unviable’: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar - Indian Express

Einstein.

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## Dash

PARIKRAMA said:


> Its what has been discussed. The present LCA orders is just tranche 1. thats for MK1A product.. post that a repeat order will be given for same product line or an improved version based on the development plan results.
> 
> Naval ones are touted to be capped at 40-60. Mostly the real naval plane wont be of light category so its more of a technology proof towards AMCA naval variant.
> 
> Rafales 90 are tranche 1. There would be more tranches. For the amount we are paying and for the fact that there would be more orders to Merignac line for quicker induction schedules, the numbers needed are much bigger.
> 
> with just 90, the MII establishment and cost incurred wont be justified



Just read in TOI, there is a mandatory cause of of a follow on of 18 which purplexes me.

I could go by the only fact that IAF might not get anymore but navy will.



Taygibay said:


> Top back Pic, it is precisely because of the canards that low speeds for carrier landing were achieved.
> There are countless documents, written and video, with Dassault people stating the fact.
> 
> Good day all, Tay.



Tayji...there is no disagreement that canrads are helpful as additional control surfaces to control flight characteristics.

I was only saying that lift comes from broader surfaces such as wings. Anyway that's for another day

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## kaykay

I will wait till deal is officially signed....


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## somebozo

Well for the Rafale sellers its not a news until first order goes manufacturing and delivery giving the unreliability of Indian purchasing...


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## Stephen Cohen

Masterhunter said:


> They will come only in 2022-23.. And two years for ITBF (as someone said)... So we are looking for 2025 for these 18 to be integrated on A carrier...



What is the meaning of ITBF


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## Ind4Ever

I heard deal is for less capable Rafale than current config . Any info on that ?

France to investb30% back in India . And negotiations are going on for local manufacturing. This comes after France failed get orders abroad due same Price negotiations . I think they now understand EF is already a successful product than Rafale .


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## Arsalan

8.8 billion for only 36 aircraft? 
There must be some mistake here or someone is getting filthy rich!!


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## Dr Shaheryar

Price Inflation is not the reason...Kickbacks Inflation has increased.


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## Dash

Arsalan said:


> 8.8 billion for only 36 aircraft?
> There must be some mistake here or someone is getting filthy rich!!



There is a dedicated Rafale thread pls visit that before making any assumption

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## monitor

Arsalan said:


> 8.8 billion for only 36 aircraft?
> There must be some mistake here or someone is getting filthy rich!!


It's include weapons training life cycle cost.

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## Dash

Manindra said:


> Wait, in some report its saying that deal cost 9 billion Euro aka 10.15 billion US dollar, then from where 8.8 billion US dollar figure come from ?



Thats in dollars and not euros.

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## Arsalan

Dash said:


> There is a dedicated Rafale thread pls visit that before making any assumption


Can you guide me to the relevant post there? I guess it will be about ToT and support systems? Still, it is what, 250 million a plane? 
Anyway, you are right, i wont make assumption, it will be great if you can guide me to the relevant post.



monitor said:


> It's include weapons training life cycle cost.


costing 250 million a plane?


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## Stephen Cohen

Arsalan said:


> costing 250 million a plane?



All recent deals ie 

Saudi F 15 ; Qatar Rafale ; Kuwait Eurofighter are in the same range 
250 to 300 million per piece

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## cerberus

Arsalan said:


> costing 250 million a plane?


*Yes,MKI Is Not Far From this Figure Either LCC of MKI is around 192 Million $+ Per Plane 

And F-35 IS AROUND 468 million $ + Unit Cost 

No wonder 4.5++ or 5 gen Gen Aircraft's are one hell Costly Deal to Maintain Presently or in Future *

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## sankranti

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Huh?
> 
> Indian sources (and the Indian defence minster) clearly said 126 Rafales:
> 
> Deal for 126 Rafale jets ‘economically unviable’: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar - Indian Express
> 
> Einstein.



It is not economically viable with today's economy, which is why its only 36 aircraft immediately which will be delivered only by 2018-2020.

However more Rafale will be viable with the economy we have in the next 5 years. Imagine Indian economy in 2020 and our defence budget then. 

To put it in perspective, our defence budget in 2010 was 30 billion $, in 2015 it was 50 billion $. 

It is safe to assume that in 2020 our defence budget will be 85-90 Billion $. Rafale made in India will be very much viable then.

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## Shinigami

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Huh?
> 
> Indian sources (and the Indian defence minster) clearly said 126 Rafales:
> 
> Deal for 126 Rafale jets ‘economically unviable’: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar - Indian Express
> 
> Einstein.


i couldnt have made it easier. i give up


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## wiseone2

Dash said:


> There is a dedicated Rafale thread pls visit that before making any assumption



someone is getting filthy rich. the numbers do not add up. Check the USAF acquisition costs for F-16 and F-15


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## kaykay

Shinigami said:


> i couldnt have made it easier. i give up


tu bhi ban? haha welcome to bannistan forum...soon this forum will run out of Indians.

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## Taygibay

Nilgiri said:


> How long is the production line open for within France (given they just have a relatively few number of orders from other countries and are wrapping up their own domestic requirement)? Are we just moving the production line from there to India in essence? ...
> 
> @Vauban @Taygibay votre opinion SVP



The line in Mérignac is going nowhere. France still has about 38 Rafale to receive under present
order including a trickle rate until 2018 minimum to allow for Egypt's deliveries and LPF previsions
and re-structuring of that very line so that it can triple its output with idle time for the rebuild. And
France still needs to order 45 Rafale by 2020-2025 to get to the minimum complement of 225.
Adding the Qatari order as Egypt will be served by 2019 & the 36 for India it gives us ... 145-160.
145-160 planes to be built not counting the 12 and 18 options in there nor the UAE planning.

Then there is the small problem of the 90 MII. Real localization will only begin with it!
So add the time it takes to sign it to the longevity of that line near Bordeaux. And even
then, a fully local line has to build up, over years! And even then ...

... potential orders past UAE, additional made in France aircrafts from the Indian deals
as per rumours, a stroke of genius decision to get the other 60+ planes lacking from the
original inventory plans for AdlA and Royale and so on.

The line for sale from Mérignac that could have made history was refused by India a few years back.

So no!

But great day to you and all, Tay.

P.S. @Dash OK, elsewhere later but really, they do!

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## Vergennes

sankranti said:


> To put it in perspective, our defence budget in 2010 was 30 billion $, in 2015 it was 50 billion $.



@PARIKRAMA @SrNair @Spectre 

In fact,your real budget remains at ~ $38-39Bn,the "$50bn" figure includes things such as pensions. 

Correct me guys if I'm wrong.

@Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN 

Just like some say that our defence budget is $50-60bn,when in fact it stands at ~€32Bn. 
This figure probably includes Gendarmerie's budget + pensions.

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## sankranti

Vauban said:


> @PARIKRAMA @SrNair @Spectre
> 
> In fact,your real budget remains at ~ $38-39Bn,the "$50bn" figure includes things such as pensions.
> 
> Correct me guys if I'm wrong.
> 
> @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN
> 
> Just like some say that our defence budget is $50-60bn,when in fact it stands at ~€32Bn.
> This figure probably includes Gendarmerie's budget + pensions.



That is not a fact.

This year a *one time allocation of pending pension due to implementation of OROP* was made part of the defence budget. This is not the norm, its an aberration.

An amount of Rs 82,332 crore was been budgeted for defence pensions, mainly to cater to the announcement of One Rank One Pension (OROP) and the Seventh Pay Commission. Addition of pensions hikes the defence budget to Rs 3.41 lakh crore.

Pure Capital expenditure is 12 Billion $.

If you exclude pensions and one time OROP backlog payment, the defence budget is 38.5 billion $.

With pension and pay hike for defence personnels this year, the budget is 51 bilion $.

Again Next year the defence budget will not have this OR OP backlog payment and the amount will reflect the true defence budget.

Now this defence budget does not include

1. Nuclear weapons, Nuclear submarine etc.
2. ISRO (Space/satellite)
3. Para Military forces like BSF, CRPF, ITBP, SPG etc ( 1.3 million men strong)
4. RAW
5. IB

If you include all these as defence apparatus of India, the defence budget will be around 60-70 Billion $.


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## randomradio

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Wasn't the original deal $11 billion for 126 Rafale?
> 
> Now it's almost as much ($9 billion) for only 36 Rafale?
> 
> That is some serious inflation.



The original deal was for indigenous production and it was $15B.

The new deal is very different, and it is cheaper than the original deal.



Chinese-Dragon said:


> Huh?
> 
> Indian sources (and the Indian defence minster) clearly said 126 Rafales:
> 
> Deal for 126 Rafale jets ‘economically unviable’: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar - Indian Express
> 
> Einstein.



Not many people know what Parrikar was talking about at the time.

The Rafale deal size has doubled since then. Even this, many people do not know.



Ind4Ever said:


> I heard deal is for less capable Rafale than current config . Any info on that ?



No. It will be the same standard as French Rafales, plus Indian specific customization.



> France to investb30% back in India . And negotiations are going on for local manufacturing. This comes after France failed get orders abroad due same Price negotiations . I think they now understand EF is already a successful product than Rafale .



The Typhoon is significantly inferior to the Rafale while being more expensive. Its success is debatable. Rafale will have more international orders in total. 5 new customers are in line apart from Egypt, Qatar, UAE and India. And Qatar's total requirement is 72 jets.



Taygibay said:


> And France still needs to order 45 Rafale by 2020-2025 to get to the minimum complement of 225.



Picdel says France will order more after the 225.


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## Ankit Kumar 002

@ all those who think that this deal can be avoided. 
http://www.thequint.com/deqoded/2015/04/14/rafale-decoded-expert-view-on-what-the-aircraft-offers

The last paragraph 

"The Rafale has been evaluated by a crack flight testing team from the IAF’s Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment – there is no one better than them in the business. Our countrymen and women can rest assured that the tax payer’s money would be well spent on an aircraft that meets the needs of the nation."

(The author, a retired Air Vice Marshal, is a Distinguished Fellow at the Centre for Air Power Studies, New Delhi)

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## MKC

sankranti said:


> That is not a fact.
> 
> This year a *one time allocation of pending pension due to implementation of OROP* was made part of the defence budget. This is not the norm, its an aberration.
> 
> An amount of Rs 82,332 crore was been budgeted for defence pensions, mainly to cater to the announcement of One Rank One Pension (OROP) and the Seventh Pay Commission. Addition of pensions hikes the defence budget to Rs 3.41 lakh crore.
> 
> Pure Capital expenditure is 12 Billion $.
> 
> If you exclude pensions and one time OROP backlog payment, the defence budget is 38.5 billion $.
> 
> With pension and pay hike for defence personnels this year, the budget is 51 bilion $.
> 
> Again Next year the defence budget will not have this OR OP backlog payment and the amount will reflect the true defence budget.
> 
> Now this defence budget does not include
> 
> 1. Nuclear weapons, Nuclear submarine etc.
> 2. ISRO (Space/satellite)
> 3. Para Military forces like BSF, CRPF, ITBP, SPG etc ( 1.3 million men strong)
> 4. RAW
> 5. IB
> 
> If you include all these as defence apparatus of India, the defence budget will be around 60-70 Billion $.


Really submarines not included in defence budget, didn't know.


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## BON PLAN

dadeechi said:


> Last month I said that RAFALE deal would be announced in 3 weeks.
> 
> @BON PLAN when I reconfirmed last week that the deal would be announced in a week you were wondering about my sources and said that price negotiations were still on. We both should be happy that I was correct.


Sure Bro.
I'm happy.
I just found time too long some weeks ago....

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## SrNair

Vauban said:


> @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @SrNair
> 
> I'll take this news with a pintch of salt,let's wait for official confirmations.
> If it's true,this is a good news,FINALLY.
> 
> @Blue Marlin @mike2000 is back
> 
> Brace yourselves,Brits,we won't break your Hawk deal record.



Heard about that .
But lets them sign that deal ,then we can celebrate it together

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## Ankit Kumar 002

MKC said:


> Really submarines not included in defence budget, didn't know.



Most probably the R&D cost of the nuke reactor isn't, rest costs like that of steel, auxiliary diesels , torpedoes etc are included.


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## Taygibay

BON PLAN said:


> I just found time too long *some weeks ago.*...



Essentially 2001-2016; IST again!

Of course, it seemed long!  Tay.

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## SrNair

IndianSudhakar said:


> 1) Based on what @PARIKRAMA said...India is going to use Rafale for Navy too... So Rafale is going to dominate Indian Airforce.
> 2) France seems to be rewarded for their neutral stance during Indian Nuclear tests.
> 3) With the strengthening of Indian Air Force, India position will become very strong and will encourage china to be "friendly"
> 4) The strategic balance between India and Pakistan will be tilted decisively.
> 
> BTW i love this plane. So beautiful it looks....



We Indians wont forget our friends .
Israel ,France,Russia .These three nations directly defended our 1998 tests and supported us in a lots of issue .
All of them got rewards as much as we can .Billions of defence deals .

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## dadeechi

BON PLAN said:


> Sure Bro.
> I'm happy.
> I just found time too long some weeks ago....



As they say Patience is a virtue and you need tons of it when dealing with Indians.

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## sathya

Is it possible for Rafale to be bought without radars ?

Israeli GaN radars ?

It's highly unlikely since some amount tech transfer for AESA radar was also talked about..

We ll get the details in few weeks time.. As to all what we get in this deal..

Sub help. 
AMCA help 
Tejas help ? 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Taygibay

sathya said:


> Is it possible for Rafale to be bought without radars ?
> 
> Israeli GaN radars ?
> 
> It's highly unlikely since some amount tech transfer for AESA radar was also talked about..



Two main ways : Buy the Rafales with your Israeli radar in it. Maximal cost is incurred as
Dassault will make you pay every integration penny if no other client wants it.

Or, buy the Rafales, look into your plan as a second mount option and take your time in
mastering the tech. Then go upgrade MLU type. That route voids the warranty though.
If you autonomously change a product and swap parts, you're on your own after that!

I'd really question the utility of the move!
Wait for MII contract to discuss ToT my friend, Tay.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

sathya said:


> Is it possible for Rafale to be bought without radars ?
> 
> Israeli GaN radars ?
> 
> It's highly unlikely since some amount tech transfer for AESA radar was also talked about..
> 
> We ll get the details in few weeks time.. As to all what we get in this deal..
> 
> Sub help.
> AMCA help
> Tejas help ?
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Nothing bad in getting the French AESA. 

Now talking childish , imagine 
French AESA Learning + Israeli AESA learning + Russian AESA learning ==>> A superb AESA creation....

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## Spectre

Taygibay said:


> Two main ways : Buy the Rafales with your Israeli radar in it. Maximal cost is incurred as
> Dassault will make you pay every integration penny if no other client wants it.
> 
> Or, buy the Rafales, look into your plan as a second mount option and take your time in
> mastering the tech. Then go upgrade MLU type. That route voids the warranty though.
> If you autonomously change a product and swap parts, you're on your own after that!
> 
> I'd really question the utility of the move!
> Wait for MII contract to discuss ToT my friend, Tay.



This warranty voiding thing is word to word same as what my volvo dealer told me when we spoke about tuning the engine. There is gotta be a different way. Anyway not much utility as you said of replacing uber expensive subsystems.


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## Dash

Arsalan said:


> Can you guide me to the relevant post there? I guess it will be about ToT and support systems? Still, it is what, 250 million a plane?
> Anyway, you are right, i wont make assumption, it will be great if you can guide me to the relevant post.
> 
> 
> costing 250 million a plane?



Sir, I don't have to guide you when you have the whole database with you, so spare me the trouble.

What I can say is, the unit program cost of a rafale is around 150 million, supported by literature available in French Senate. Now the unit production cost though still lies somewhere around 120 million or so. 

Now the cost f 250 million will somewhat look like this. And mind you, no one is getting rich here as this is g2g deal and none other than the PM is responsible 1. For making it a g2g deal 2. For allowing such a political bravado which first and foremost is scrutinble by the opposition and the dynamics of financial mindgame to our regulatory bodies who stand unbiased in tested times. But as you and anyone can guess there "could' be rooms for error and a possible chance of some sugar coating. This is political aspect of it.

Now, what we have asked the French is something that has been asked from every other country they have dealt with. Qatar had been negotiated, albeit with less success for the same price.

Here IAF as you know wants customization in every plane. In India you see is full of diverse climate and a challenging plane. West is so radically different then east that unless you have a adaptable platform with great support systems you are likely to be handicapped in a daunting task.

That was lecture. And without further boring you, I will say that. Rest of the amount has been charged for 2 support bases to ensure 90% availability at anytime.

Weapons package that is around 5% to 7% roughly of the planes cost. Not ruling out meteor mica's and I'm expecting Israeli hmd and software plugins to allow operating of Israeli, Indian and possible Russian missiles probable.

30 % of offsets to be invested back in India to support the Indian home grown programs for future.

Now the French as shrewd they are were not willing to be paid less for a contract that lasts for 20 years a minimum. And I guess we paid them a justifiable price just to keep them in business for years to come.

Who wants to be bullied by a 7 trillion economy after 10 years. So they had their chance and they used it.

We will just wait for our opportunity a little late.

We call that give and take back in diplomatic terms.


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## Stephen Cohen

sathya said:


> Is it possible for Rafale to be bought without radars ?
> 
> Israeli GaN radars ?
> 
> It's highly unlikely since some amount tech transfer for AESA radar was also talked about..
> 
> We ll get the details in few weeks time.. As to all what we get in this deal..
> 
> Sub help.
> AMCA help
> Tejas help ?
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



SO which radar do you plan to FIT into it
Elta 2052 

What about the size and other electrical fittings and cooling mechanisms 
And then the whole process of software integration 

It is NOT an accessory 

A radar is as fundamental and basic equipment as the engine 

We can only put Israeli weapons and litening or recellite pods


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## sathya

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Nothing bad in getting the French AESA.
> 
> Now talking childish , imagine
> French AESA Learning + Israeli AESA learning + Russian AESA learning ==>> A superb AESA creation....




I too think it's impossible that France would allow such a move , when they didn't allow even mirage upgradation by Israel ..


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## Taygibay

Dash said:


> What I can say is, the unit program cost of a rafale is around 150 million, supported by literature available in French Senate. Now the unit production cost though still lies somewhere around 120 million or so.



Wrong! I made a specific thread on that.
Program cost does not concern India.
Cost delivered to Fr forces is 73-75 M €.

The database as you say exists, mate, Tay.


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## sathya

Stephen Cohen said:


> SO which radar do you plan to FIT into it
> Elta 2052
> 
> What about the size and other electrical fittings and cooling mechanisms
> And then the whole process of software integration
> 
> It is NOT an accessory
> 
> A radar is as fundamental and basic equipment as the engine
> 
> We can only put Israeli weapons and litening or recellite pods




I read a post some where Elta 2052 being advAnced than APG79..
And Israel had a condition for offering it.. That more than one type of aircrafts should be fixed with it.. 

France wouldn't want to replace its radar for some other, 
only chance for it is that it don't want sensitive equipment to be exported ... Other than a toned down version ..
I am getting into paranoia if I think of anymore possibilities ..


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## Dash

Taygibay said:


> The line in Mérignac is going nowhere. France still has about 38 Rafale to receive under present
> order including a trickle rate until 2018 minimum to allow for Egypt's deliveries and LPF previsions
> and re-structuring of that very line so that it can triple its output with idle time for the rebuild. And
> France still needs to order 45 Rafale by 2020-2025 to get to the minimum complement of 225.
> Adding the Qatari order as Egypt will be served by 2019 & the 36 for India it gives us ... 145-160.
> 145-160 planes to be built not counting the 12 and 18 options in there nor the UAE planning.
> 
> Then there is the small problem of the 90 MII. Real localization will only begin with it!
> So add the time it takes to sign it to the longevity of that line near Bordeaux. And even
> then, a fully local line has to build up, over years! And even then ...
> 
> ... potential orders past UAE, additional made in France aircrafts from the Indian deals
> as per rumours, a stroke of genius decision to get the other 60+ planes lacking from the
> original inventory plans for AdlA and Royale and so on.
> 
> The line for sale from Mérignac that could have made history was refused by India a few years back.
> 
> So no!
> 
> But great day to you and all, Tay.
> 
> P.S. @Dash OK, elsewhere later but really, they do!



Yeah they do, let me add two canrads to your body to see if you can get a lift when you fa....


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## Stephen Cohen

sathya said:


> I read a post some where Elta 2052 being advAnced than APG79..
> And Israel had a condition for offering it.. That more than one type of aircrafts should be fixed with it..
> 
> France wouldn't want to replace its radar for some other,
> only chance for it is that it don't want sensitive equipment to be exported ... Other than a toned down version ..
> I am getting into paranoia if I think of anymore possibilities ..



We are getting BOTH RBE 2 AESA for Rafale and ELTA 2052 for Tejas and Jaguar 

Let us use and compare 

May be 10 years from now Our DESI AESA " UTTAM" bight turn out better than BOTH 
of them

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## Ankit Kumar 002

sathya said:


> I too think it's impossible that France would allow such a move , when they didn't allow even mirage upgradation by Israel ..



Yes , its difficult. 
But we can surely get France to help us get some important things for the AESA correct, maybe like the coolant, the software, how to focus a highly controlled radar beam , how to get the design more efficient , how to configure the radar so that it works in optimal situation with varying power the aircraft can provide... etc etc....

I may be wrong in few things, but there is a lot which France can help us learn.

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## Dash

Taygibay said:


> Wrong! I made a specific thread on that.
> Program cost does not concern India.
> Cost delivered to Fr forces is 73-75 M €.
> 
> The database as you say exists, mate, Tay.



So cost delivered to French forces is equal to cost delivered to India.
I know what ur saying Sir but only if there was a level playing field in business.

I understand the upg doesn't bother India. But it bothers Rafale in a miniscule order. I hope you can understand what I'm saying.


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## Taygibay

Dash said:


> Yeah they do, let me add two canrads to your body to see if you can get a lift when you fa....



Apart from planes and helos, I get lift from surfboards and bikes.
Considering my build, lift is otherwise as temporary as jumping up.

So you are right, canards wouldn't help ...

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## SR-91

Chinese-Dragon said:


> Two decades? The Rafale won the Indian deal in 2012, only a few years ago.
> 
> Almost 300% inflation (in the per aircraft costs) for a few years isn't exactly normal.




Price quoted in 2012 is for jets only without the weapons, infrastructure, spares etc.etc.
Per aircraft cost is still the same . Each Rafale will cost around 80-85 million, multiply that by 126 = $ 11 billion. Cost of Rafales will come down as the numbers are expected to rise to 300 jets. Also remember Indian Air Force wants 90% availability with Rafales as compare to 60-65% with SU-30MKI. 

You should read @PARIKRAMA post for the last couple of days.


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## Dash

Taygibay said:


> Apart from planes and helos, I get lift from surfboards and bikes.
> Considering my build, lift is otherwise as temporary as jumping up.
> 
> So you are right, canards wouldn't help ...



Besides that the teens in us navy don't have canrads... Still they do.

I'm not saying they do magic, it only happens when u design a multirole fighter.

Precisely why f 16 is for USAF and f18 is for usn

PS thank you for being a sport. Appreciate it

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## SR-91

Ind4Ever said:


> I heard deal is for less capable Rafale than current config . Any info on that ?
> 
> *France to investb30% back in India *. And negotiations are going on for local manufacturing. This comes after France failed get orders abroad due same Price negotiations . I think they now understand EF is already a successful product than Rafale .



France will have to invest 50% back in India bro.


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## topgun047

SR-91 said:


> France will have to invest 50% back in India bro.



No the deal is for 59000 crore and offsets are 22000 crore.


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## Dash

Abingdonboy said:


> Today is a good day my friend... As I have thought the deal to be around 9 billion USD, has come true. And tbh no matter how much you scold DM mp, I can say he cracked it albeit with other ones.
> 
> I hope we can soon close this may mentally torturing me thread and have some fresh air.
> 
> Enthusiasts have struggled for long being one of the oldest us. We can work something new out.
> 
> What say?


Might be a good idea once the contracts are signed to lock this thread and start a new thread "Indian Rafale deliveries and updTes thread" or something.


I agree it would be good to start afresh


You deserve all the plaudits you get brother.


+ @Dash I'm willing to cut the the DM some slack now, it seems there may have been a plan all along 

News in the last 3 days has been especially enlightening- 25 LCA/year is the target (with private player participation) so 250-300 LCA are assured along with 300+ MKI and 200+ Rafales and at some point the FGFA and AMCA will follow. In short, it has been assured that IAF will be the air power in Asia.[/QUOTE]

Come back and ping me bro

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## ravinderpalrulez

According to prasun!! 44 rafale will be licence-assembled in the second order tranche that will be placed next year. There will be similar other successive tranches in the years to come. Offset package will likely involve buy-back provisions that will enable Indian vendors to become members of the global supplier chains of various French OEMs

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## sathya

ravinderpalrulez said:


> According to prasun!! 44 rafale will be licence-assembled in the second order tranche that will be placed next year. There will be similar other successive tranches in the years to come. Offset package will likely involve buy-back provisions that will enable Indian vendors to become members of the global supplier chains of various French OEMs



So in total 36+18 +90+44 =188. ?
18 & 44 for navy and 36 &90 for airforce ..
Licence assembled @ tranche 2 ? When are we going to make from raw material stage ?


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## enquencher

36 rafale now plus 18 followup clause.
Offsets will be for rafale n engines. Which will help in acma..m sure acma will be with french help.rafale will be then produced/assembled /cobuilt. Rafale coming for navy also along with naval lca. Army and naval rafale total will be around 250+. Coz nething less than that does not justify offsets for dassault.


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## BON PLAN

Ind4Ever said:


> I heard deal is for less capable Rafale than current config . Any info on that ?
> 
> France to investb30% back in India . And negotiations are going on for local manufacturing. This comes after France failed get orders abroad due same Price negotiations . I think they now understand EF is already a successful product than Rafale .


Sure not. You will have AESA radar, more powerfull engine (I think), Meteor, SCALP and AASM capacity (even if not ordered immediatly), Spectra.... It will be AT LEAST as powerfull as France ones.



sathya said:


> Is it possible for Rafale to be bought without radars ?
> 
> Israeli GaN radars ?
> 
> It's highly unlikely since some amount tech transfer for AESA radar was also talked about..
> 
> We ll get the details in few weeks time.. As to all what we get in this deal..
> 
> Sub help.
> AMCA help
> Tejas help ?
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The RBE2 radar (AESA or PESA) and OSF are close integrated. No OSF with another radar ! and Radar and OSF and Spectra are used together through sensor fusion to give the best situation to pilot. Remove one and you loose part of that.
So I think it's a false news.

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## BON PLAN

dadeechi said:


> As they say Patience is a virtue and you need tons of it when dealing with Indians.

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## IndianSudhakar

Spectre said:


> Are you effing kidding me????? I would any day take zero Rafales for a peaceful and friendly neighbourhood.
> 
> The resources we spend on defence is out of necessity without the need they provide marginal utility.



I too would take a peaceful and friendly neighbourhood any day. But my concern is during peaceful times, Indian establishment becomes lethargic in defence matters. Pakistan and China are forcing India to become a strong military power. In this world Hard Power is always respected and now we have a reason to acquire it. Hope you see my point.


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## ManOnWall

@PARIKRAMA So overall do you think this is a good deal from India's point of view and also do you see this as the final major foreign fighter acquisition, i.e everything now will be desi maal.....

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## PARIKRAMA

ManOnWall said:


> @PARIKRAMA So overall do you think this is a good deal from India's point of view and also do you see this as the final major foreign fighter acquisition, i.e everything now will be desi maal.....



My heart says this should be one of the final foreign acquisitions. But mind and logic differs..

The target for any jet with our indigenous design to even a foreign design needs to be understood from 2 points

localisation aspect 
in terms of economic value
When i say localisation aspect, take for example an MKI.. its produced in India from raw materials and some limited things from Russian imports. But critically even though we have been producing a product as per a template, effectively we have not been able to replicate a similar effort for any other home made jet. I am not saying about reverse engineering or cloning or infringing IPRs but rather that the know how learned from such processes which we have been doing for a decade plus is of practically no use for us.

In terms of economic value, take the example of our own LCA. I for one would always advocate the LCA to be minimum 300+ jets. But critically, the economic value of what we are able to make locally and what we are dependent on abroad makes it a difficult choice unless we bridge this gap. if suppose we are able reach a stage where we make our own parts of economic value of closer to 80% and above, we can then reach a stage where we could slowly say only indigenous planes and no foreign acquisition. 

Critically as of today - Engines, Radar, Missiles all have not reached a stage that we can deploy in frontline fighters. Astra should come soon but thats a BVR and we dont have our own WVR missile. ARM will be tested in coming times. Radar is still some time away and so the engine. i named just 3 and there are many more items running in 100s which we are yet not able to manufacture in India but these 3 have good economic value. 

Thus, the MII is a golden chance to correct such a thing. I hope that in 2 decades, we would see our MIC to be effective in the component manufacturing to sub assembly to assembly level. The need is to raise the skill levels of the people in MIC and capability to go beyond the templated product and doing the routine job.

Rafale deal will be good if and only if we make sure we dont repeat the story of MKI. i am not just looking at technology absorption part but as i said i want to increase the skill level and capability level of our MIC particularly the pvt sector.

only time will say.. critically if i consider just FGFA, i dont think we would need any more foreign planes.

So add 15 years of Rafale line + 10 years of fgfa line and if result is remaining at same level of MIC capability and skill then even GOD cant help India.

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## Stephen Cohen

Spectre said:


> Are you effing kidding me????? I would any day take zero Rafales for a peaceful and friendly neighbourhood.
> 
> The resources we spend on defence is out of necessity without the need they provide marginal utility.



You have no idea what kind of neighbours we are living with

They would happily carve out India amongst themselves if we were weaker

The marginal utility of these weapons can be understood in the context that
PLAAF will have 1000 Fourth Generation planes in less than a decade

Do you remember the kind of paranoia that India went through in 2009 and 2010
after repeated Chinese incursions ; do you want it to get worse

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## Arsalan

Dash said:


> Sir, I don't have to guide you when you have the whole database with you, so spare me the trouble.
> 
> What I can say is, the unit program cost of a rafale is around 150 million, supported by literature available in French Senate. Now the unit production cost though still lies somewhere around 120 million or so.
> 
> Now the cost f 250 million will somewhat look like this. And mind you, no one is getting rich here as this is g2g deal and none other than the PM is responsible 1. For making it a g2g deal 2. For allowing such a political bravado which first and foremost is scrutinble by the opposition and the dynamics of financial mindgame to our regulatory bodies who stand unbiased in tested times. But as you and anyone can guess there "could' be rooms for error and a possible chance of some sugar coating. This is political aspect of it.
> 
> Now, what we have asked the French is something that has been asked from every other country they have dealt with. Qatar had been negotiated, albeit with less success for the same price.
> 
> Here IAF as you know wants customization in every plane. In India you see is full of diverse climate and a challenging plane. West is so radically different then east that unless you have a adaptable platform with great support systems you are likely to be handicapped in a daunting task.
> 
> That was lecture. And without further boring you, I will say that. Rest of the amount has been charged for 2 support bases to ensure 90% availability at anytime.
> 
> Weapons package that is around 5% to 7% roughly of the planes cost. Not ruling out meteor mica's and I'm expecting Israeli hmd and software plugins to allow operating of Israeli, Indian and possible Russian missiles probable.
> 
> 30 % of offsets to be invested back in India to support the Indian home grown programs for future.
> 
> Now the French as shrewd they are were not willing to be paid less for a contract that lasts for 20 years a minimum. And I guess we paid them a justifiable price just to keep them in business for years to come.
> 
> Who wants to be bullied by a 7 trillion economy after 10 years. So they had their chance and they used it.
> 
> We will just wait for our opportunity a little late.
> 
> We call that give and take back in diplomatic terms.



I couldn't find it that is why i asked you, you sounded like you are well familiar with such "fact posts" in the relevant thread.
Anyway, thanks for your time, i have got an idea now.

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## Spectre

Stephen Cohen said:


> You have no idea what kind of neighbours we are living with
> 
> They would happily carve out India amongst themselves if we were weaker
> 
> The marginal utility of these weapons can be understood in the context that
> PLAAF will have 1000 Fourth Generation planes in less than a decade
> 
> Do you remember the kind of paranoia that India went through in 2009 and 2010
> after repeated Chinese incursions ; do you want it to get worse



I completely agree. Let's look at it this way - I would sacrifice Rafales if India could exist in same geo-political framework as Switzerland i.e. no enemies.

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## Dash

Spectre said:


> I completely agree. Let's look at it this way - I would sacrifice Rafales if India could exist in same geo-political framework as Switzerland i.e. no enemies.



I think Canada won't agree with you and more so Aussies who don't even have a neighbor


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## Stephen Cohen

Spectre said:


> I completely agree. Let's look at it this way - I would sacrifice Rafales if India could exist in same geo-political framework as Switzerland i.e. no enemies.



It is our Destiny ; we cant change it

Indians are Totally pacifist by nature

Even after a BRUTAL History of suffering from invasions in the
last 1000 years ; STILL after 1947 we were NOT interested in Military strength

It took the 1962 disaster to Bring India BACK to REALITY ; from the Airy fairy world
of world peace and Panchsheel

Still we have NOT given up hope on China

But Let us understand China ; these China SPECIFIC preparations are Being done
after a THOROUGH analysis by a specialist China STUDY GROUP in the Indian Government

Prior to 2009 we never articulated the Two front scenario

China is very Ambitious ; It wants to be the UN CHALLENGED power of Asia

There is a Concept in the Chinese Communist Party and PLA
which calls for TEACHING a lesson to errant Neighbors

And since China will NOT be able to MATCH USA ; as a Global super power
it will take out its frustration on smaller neighbors such as India ; Japan; Taiwan ; Vietnam
and Philipines 

China is a Totally different Country than what the Soviet Union ever was
Soviets believed in Warsaw Pact and friendly Immediate Neighborhood

China believes in throwing its weight around and Bullying its neighbors

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## ManOnWall

PARIKRAMA said:


> My heart says this should be one of the final foreign acquisitions. But mind and logic differs...



So, in regards to the Indian rafale line - will it just be screwdriver tech or, as time advances, will the line be able to (mostly) produce the jet from raw materials and know-how from/in India as we get more and more experience? In other words, is dassault just going to fabricate the parts and the India line just screws it together throughout the 15 years of this India line?

Thanks for your input, it helps a lot! 

@PARIKRAMA

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## Stephen Cohen

@Spectre 

In case you have any doubts about Chinese thinking and intentions 
Please REMEMBER that China has Settled its land Border disputes with
ALL COUNTRIES EXCEPT India 

They are Firm in their demand for Arunachal Pradesh to be handed over to them 

Add to it their alliance with Pakistan ( Surely you dont have any doubts about Pakistani intentions )

Then there is the String of Pearls doctrine 

The question is WHY China wants to keep needling India 

The answer is simple ; They see India as a potential challenger in future 
Several articles in The CCP News papers written by Ex PLA Generals 
have called for Teaching a Lesson to India AGAIN 

If India becomes weak ; China will immeidately take full advantage of the situation 

There should be No doubt in our minds

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## Spectre

Stephen Cohen said:


> @Spectre
> 
> In case you have any doubts about Chinese thinking and intentions
> Please REMEMBER that China has Settled its land Border disputes with
> ALL COUNTRIES EXCEPT India
> 
> They are Firm in their demand for Arunachal Pradesh to be handed over to them
> 
> Add to it their alliance with Pakistan ( Surely you dont have any doubts about Pakistani intentions )
> 
> Then there is the String of Pearls doctrine
> 
> The question is WHY China wants to keep needling India
> 
> The answer is simple ; They see India as a potential challenger in future
> Several articles in The CCP News papers written by Ex PLA Generals
> have called for Teaching a Lesson to India AGAIN
> 
> If India becomes weak ; China will immeidately take full advantage of the situation
> 
> There should be No doubt in our minds



Again, I dont disagree. My point was limited to a specific context.

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## Alpha Fighter

Stephen Cohen said:


> It is our Destiny ; we cant change it
> 
> Indians are Totally pacifist by nature
> 
> Even after a BRUTAL History of suffering from invasions in the
> last 1000 years ; STILL after 1947 we were NOT interested in Military strength
> 
> It took the 1962 disaster to Bring India BACK to REALITY ; from the Airy fairy world
> of world peace and Panchsheel
> 
> Still we have NOT given up hope on China
> 
> But Let us understand China ; these China SPECIFIC preparations are Being done
> after a THOROUGH analysis by a specialist China STUDY GROUP in the Indian Government
> 
> Prior to 2009 we never articulated the Two front scenario
> 
> China is very Ambitious ; It wants to be the UN CHALLENGED power of Asia
> 
> There is a Concept in the Chinese Communist Party and PLA
> which calls for TEACHING a lesson to errant Neighbors
> 
> And since China will NOT be able to MATCH USA ; as a Global super power
> it will take out its frustration on smaller neighbors such as India ; Japan; Taiwan ; Vietnam
> and Philipines
> 
> China is a Totally different Country than what the Soviet Union ever was
> Soviets believed in Warsaw Pact and friendly Immediate Neighborhood
> 
> China believes in throwing its weight around and Bullying its neighbors



china didn't settled boundary dispute with all neighbours , its only does with , Russia , because Russians given them the slap on face.

they have the strategy to grab land / sea inch by inch , Do in small , so their is no Direct war and they also win. But Now IA under new Govt. striking back to china.

Demolishing Chinese TOWER had done recently, which make China very nervous , As Indian are on cross roads and China knows , any Indian movement can wipe China dreams , so they do all kinda things threating to needling.

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## Stephen Cohen

Alpha Fighter said:


> china didn't settled boundary dispute with all neighbours , its only does with , Russia , because Russians given them the slap on face.



No they have settled all LAND border disputes except India 

The disputes with Japan ; Philipines and Vietnam is over ISLANDS in the South China sea

They are called maritime disputes


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## PARIKRAMA

ManOnWall said:


> So, in regards to the Indian rafale line - will it just be screwdriver tech or, as time advances, will the line be able to (mostly) produce the jet from raw materials and know-how from/in India as we get more and more experience? In other words, is dassault just going to fabricate the parts and the India line just screws it together throughout the 15 years of this India line?
> 
> Thanks for your input, it helps a lot!
> 
> @PARIKRAMA


The kit based assembly will mean nothing for us over long time.
we will surely do the localisation aspect and over time reach a critical level of producing the whole Rafale in India from raw material stage. If i remember correctly, the team had presented a stage by stage numbers and percentage of localisation in a grid along with cost savings and benefits in terms of skill and capability development. This is as per multiple tranches.

if i remember Trappier commented that by the end of 90 jets or the first tranche a substantial localisation would be over and Rafale will be produced in India.

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## Alpha Fighter

Stephen Cohen said:


> No they have settled all LAND border disputes except India
> 
> The disputes with Japan ; Philipines and Vietnam is over ISLANDS in the South China sea
> 
> They are called maritime disputes



Let get back top Planes


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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> The kit based assembly will mean nothing for us over long time.
> we will surely do the localisation aspect and over time reach a critical level of producing the whole Rafale in India from raw material stage. If i remember correctly, the team had presented a stage by stage numbers and percentage of localisation in a grid along with cost savings and benefits in terms of skill and capability development. This is as per multiple tranches.
> 
> if i remember Trappier commented that by the end of 90 jets or the first tranche a substantial localisation would be over and Rafale will be produced in India.



Hello Sir 

Are we getting Meteor missile

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## ManOnWall

PARIKRAMA said:


> if i remember Trappier commented that by the end of 90 jets or the first tranche a substantial localisation would be over and Rafale will be produced in India.



Good, I think localisation is the key, it will have multiplier effects in other manufacturing industries in India and as you said before - this will help us with our projects over time.

So if I roughly calculate:

If we are ordering around 300 just for IAF,

300 - (90 for first tranche) - (36 from France) = 174.

So around 150 to 170 jets from later batches will have a good amount of localization... (Would you agree, or am I just being an idiot, or is it too hard to tell for the time being?)

Anyway, I am quite happy with around half of the jets being screwed together and half being made in India - that's a damn good deal considering all the other tech that will come along with it!

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## zebra7

Stephen Cohen said:


> Hello Sir
> 
> Are we getting Meteor missile



Not yet, a seperate deal have to be made with the MBDA latter on for the Meteors. 

What could have been done, was the order of the Rafale, Simulators few years back.

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## ManOnWall

zebra7 said:


> Not yet, a seperate deal have to be made with the MBDA latter on for the Meteors.
> 
> What could have been done, was the order of the Rafale, Simulators few years back.



How is the Astra doing, are trials going on?

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## zebra7

ManOnWall said:


> How is the Astra doing, are trials going on?



1. Astra MK-1 is doing well and soon will be inducted.
2. Desi Seekers are been fabricated, ground trials are going on.
3. Astra MK-2 would be the Game Changer, and would become, the main BVR weapon of India.
4. There is some issues with the TVC nozzle of the Astra or is not mature enough or may be I am crazy, thats why Astra MK-1 have a big, Mid body fins for the surface control.

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## ManOnWall

zebra7 said:


> 2. Desi Seekers are been fabricated, ground trials are going on.
> 3. Astra MK-2 would be the Game Changer, and would become, the main BVR weapon of India.



Nice! I think desi seekers will be the key, additionally if we can get it fully localized for MK1 and 2 - that will be the icing on the cake.

From now, I think there has been a ramp-up in missile tech localization. We still have a long way to go - for example, as Parrikar said, 65% of "Made in India" Bhramos is imported.....

Although, positive things are happening, like doubling output of Akash missle of 100 a month. That has quite a good proportion of desi tech from what I've heard/seen.

These are just the stepping stones, with help from abroad, I think we have a huge potential.

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## zebra7

ManOnWall said:


> Nice! I think desi seekers will be the key, additionally if we can get it fully localized for MK1 and 2 - that will be the icing on the cake.
> 
> From now, I think there has been a ramp-up in missile tech localization. We still have a long way to go - for example, as Parrikar said, 65% of "Made in India" Bhramos is imported.....
> 
> Although, positive things are happening, like doubling output of Akash missle of 100 a month. That has quite a good proportion of desi tech from what I've heard/seen.
> 
> These are just the stepping stones, with help from abroad, I think we have a huge potential.



LOLZ -- The Seeker is not the sensing device but in reality its the Algorithm to detect the target behind the background Clutter, and India, have to learn a lot, and may be Israel, can help India in that, but nothing comes free in the true world.

Actually, we have to keep ourself updated with the changing future tech. and Might be we should aim for the self reliance in the A2A Missile tech, a self reliance in field of the Missiles but we have to develop the state of art, Smart Weapons, and DEW weapons, which will be the Future weapons of the Future.

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## ManOnWall

zebra7 said:


> LOLZ -- The Seeker is not the sensing device but in reality its the Algorithm to detect the target behind the background Clutter.



Ohhhh, whenever I read seeker I always thought it was the physical sensing device ooops...

Thanks. lol



zebra7 said:


> LOLZ -- The Seeker is not the sensing device but in reality its the Algorithm to detect the target behind the background Clutter, and India, have to learn a lot, and may be Israel, can help India in that, but nothing comes free in the true world.
> 
> Actually, we have to keep ourself updated with the changing future tech. and Might be we should aim for the self reliance in the A2A Missile tech, a self reliance in field of the Missiles but we have to develop the state of art, Smart Weapons, and DEW weapons, which will be the Future weapons of the Future.



So are we getting any full or even partial codes to help us on this front, from this rafale deal? (Bear with me, im no CompSci guy, so I am a bit dim when it comes to these things......


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## zebra7

ManOnWall said:


> Ohhhh, whenever I read seeker I always thought it was the physical sensing device ooops...
> 
> Thanks. lol



Seeker consists of both Hardware, which constitutes the RF Modules Emitters/Sensors, Amplification circuitary, Cooling Mechanism, CPU and algorithm and I/O device, to connect with the Missile Mission Computer. Now a days like in Derby ER BVRAAM, the Israeli have created the Software based Radar (SBR) Seekers and miniturized computer. Remember the capability, lethality, and the distance it can reach depends on the algorithm, the program in a BVRAAM.

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## PARIKRAMA

ManOnWall said:


> Good, I think localisation is the key, it will have multiplier effects in other manufacturing industries in India and as you said before - this will help us with our projects over time.
> 
> So if I roughly calculate:
> 
> If we are ordering around 300 just for IAF,
> 
> 300 - (90 for first tranche) - (36 from France) = 174.
> 
> So around 150 to 170 jets from later batches will have a good amount of localization... (Would you agree, or am I just being an idiot, or is it too hard to tell for the time being?)
> 
> Anyway, I am quite happy with around half of the jets being screwed together and half being made in India - that's a damn good deal considering all the other tech that will come along with it!




as of now what i know is there are planned 5 tranches for an amount greater than 300 jets . This includes for both the forces - IAF and IN.

IN wants 100+ Rafale Ms. I was sure about the Catobar part but recently a professional in another forum suggested that IN wants Rafale for STOBAR IAC1 too.. As of now i know for sure air wing for IAC 1 which i think will be inducted by Dec06, 2019 is not yet ordered. Nor Rafale had done any testing in STBF INS Hansa. But if such a case arises, the IAC1 wing of 42-45 Rafales will also be ordered from Merignac. 

So its a bit difficult to actually spell out how many may be in Merignac but roughly it should be 83-99 (36+18+45 or 36+18+27). That roughly leaves around 200+ in MII line out of which tranche 1 will be 90. Originally i heard a ratio of 1:3 thats is 1 plane in Merignac and 3 planes in MII line so if that happens then the numbers would increase further.

Yes by the middle of first tranche we should see gradual reduction in the screw driver philosophy and by the end of 90, a good 50% part would be localised. But point to note is that economic value of this localised parts will not be very high. that part will come over time..

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## zebra7

ManOnWall said:


> So are we getting any full or even partial codes to help us on this front, from this rafale deal? (Bear with me, im no CompSci guy, so I am a bit dim when it comes to these things......



With Rafale, why do we need any codes ??

For the Integration of the Indiginously Astra BVRAAM, you don't need the whole code of the Radar, rather the library module for communicating with the Weapon Control system, and Mission Computer.

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## ManOnWall

zebra7 said:


> With Rafale, why do we need any codes ??
> 
> For the Integration of the Indiginously Astra BVRAAM, you don't need the whole code of the Radar, rather the library module for communicating with the Weapon Control system, and Mission Computer.



Well, what I meant was - I thought with this whole rafale deal, we will get additional help - in the form of tech for our IACs, nuclear subs, so on and so forth. Hence what I was saying was, are we getting help with the aforementioned algos we needed for improved missile performance.

i.e help not just to do with astra, but other projects as well...


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## zebra7

ManOnWall said:


> Well, what I meant was - I thought with this whole rafale deal, we will get additional help - in the form of tech for our IACs, nuclear subs, so on and so forth. Hence what I was saying was, are we getting help with the aforementioned algos we needed for improved missile performance.
> 
> i.e help not just to do with astra, but other projects as well...



Here is the answer for you query in the form of Hints.

1. UAE signed Rafale and Scorpean Submarine Deal
2. India needs HEU based nuclear Reactors tech for the Carrier, and Subs, Russian tech is LEU reactors.
3. India have Stealth UVA program called AURA, and France have nUERON. This is required along with the 5th Gen Bird against the enemy who too got the 5th Gen Stealth Fighter plane. And M88 engine can be the safe bet till Kaveri gets mature, and various avionics, and sensors.
4. Rafale is 5th Generation Capable combat Plane.
5. Rafale build in India under Make In India, with Pvt Company for the International Market, at lower cost, with Indian Companies competiting for the supply of various Subsystems.
6. India investing in the Future upgrades, and MRO facilities for the International Market.

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## Bali78

valluvan said:


> Can't believe indian members r talking like unrealistic fanboys in this thread. Common people we r paying freaking 11 billion euros for just 36 planes. If we want to induct 126 rafales as per intial mrca tenders we will require 35 billion euros. Do you know parrikar already announced our budget for next 10 year capital expenditure for iaf is only $30 billion. Please don't pull out some unrealistic figures like 300 or 400 rafales and dont embrass indians


Where exactly did you get that figure of 11 billion? Nobody claimed 300 planes are going to come in 10 years . It will take at least 15 years and by that time Indian economy will be at least 7-8 trillion.

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## sathya

valluvan said:


> Can't believe indian members r talking like unrealistic fanboys in this thread. Common people we r paying freaking 11 billion euros for just 36 planes. If we want to induct 126 rafales as per intial mrca tenders we will require 35 billion euros. Do you know parrikar already announced our budget for next 10 year capital expenditure for iaf is only $30 billion. Please don't pull out some unrealistic figures like 300 or 400 rafales and dont embrass indians



It's 7.8 billion € for everything, refer to parikrama break up of costs.
Yep it's sad, we have to give away so much of money, that could have been spent for people s welfare .

Security is also an important aspect that's needed to be looked after..
It's better we are getting help in AMCA. , subs.. That will reduce our future expenditure ..

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## Picdelamirand-oil

valluvan said:


> Sir we r going to compromise on some specs for the above quoted prices . Initially iaf said they rejected russian offers because they r heavy, expensive we need aircraft which wil be inexpensive multirole . Then why they select exorbitant price rafale for mrca aircraft


You have to take care of the flying hour cost. For exemple you need 32 hours of maintenance for each flying hour on SU-30 MKI against 8 hours of maintenance for Rafale.

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## Carlosa

Stephen Cohen said:


> No they have settled all LAND border disputes except India
> 
> The disputes with Japan ; Philipines and Vietnam is over ISLANDS in the South China sea
> 
> They are called maritime disputes



I think they still have a land dispute with Bhutan.


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## sathya

valluvan said:


> Sir we r going to compromise on some specs for the above quoted prices . Initially iaf said they rejected russian offers because they r heavy, expensive we need aircraft which wil be inexpensive multirole . Then why they select exorbitant price rafale for mrca aircraft



China is bulling around , with enormous strength ..
We need to be ready .
Think over about the best solution.
We chose Rafale since it was the best possible solution.


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## Abingdonboy

valluvan said:


> We have to spend our resources wisely to mainyain minimum deterrance against china. French r bleeding us by dollars. They charged us frigging $2.3 billion for mirage upgrade. We r paying almost $1 billion per submarine which didn't have aip. Now you want we shel out some $13 billion for 36 jets


Firstly $13BN is sheer nonsense my friend, the final price as been agreed upon and it is >$4BN cheaper than what you are saying. Secondly, I don't understand this part about resource allocation, I hope you are aware that there isn't a special provision for the Rafale buy, it is just like any other defence deal and will be serviced out of the GoI's defence budget and thus this deal has no detrimental effect for any public expenditure, because of the Rafale purchase no children will go hungry, no roads will fail to be built. If it hadn't been 126+ Rafales this money was spent on it would have been some naval ships or some artillery guns or some submarines etc etc. Defence spending is defence spending and considering India is allocating the least it has for 50+ years on defence (as a proportion of GDP at just 1.65%) there is no major controversy here. 




sathya said:


> It's 7.8 billion € for everything, refer to parikrama break up of costs.
> Yep it's sad, we have to give away so much of money, that could have been spent for people s welfare .
> 
> Security is also an important aspect that's needed to be looked after..
> It's better we are getting help in AMCA. , subs.. That will reduce our future expenditure ..


"Sad"? I guess but, as I have said above the purchase is within the allocated defence budget 50% of this deal alone will go into offsets and the MII element will see even heavier investment into India. This is how a nation prospers and economies grow- no amount of welfare spending can do that. Yes it's important to support the most vulnerable in a society and the best way to do that is with capacity building them and skilling them not merely handing out welfare checks (see our failed system in the UK) ie teach a man to fish and so on. 

IMHO the Rafale deals will pay for themselves in the long term and are making another step up for Indians domestic industry that will pay dividends in the future.

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## AugenBlick

Abingdonboy said:


> Firstly $13BN is sheer nonsense my friend, the final price as been agreed upon and it is >$4BN cheaper than what you are saying. Secondly, I don't understand this part about resource allocation, I hope you are aware that there isn't a special provision for the Rafale buy, it is just like any other defence deal and will be serviced out of the GoI's defence budget and thus this deal has no detrimental effect for any public expenditure, because of the Rafale purchase no children will go hungry, no roads will fail to be built. If it hadn't been 126+ Rafales this money was spent on it would have been some naval ships or some artillery guns or some submarines etc etc. Defence spending is defence spending and considering India is allocating the least it has for 50+ years on defence (as a proportion of GDP at just 1.65%) there is no major controversy here.
> 
> 
> 
> "Sad"? I guess but, as I have said above the purchase is within the allocated defence budget 50% of this deal alone will go into offsets and the MII element will see even heavier investment into India. This is how a nation prospers and economies grow- no amount of welfare spending can do that. Yes it's important to support the most vulnerable in a society and the best way to do that is with capacity building them and skilling them not merely handing out welfare checks (see our failed system in the UK) ie teach a man to fish and so on.
> 
> IMHO the Rafale deals will pay for themselves in the long term and are making another step up for Indians domestic industry that will pay dividends in the future.



What is this new rumor that Rafael specs are downgraded. It would be political suicide if the specs do not meet the jet that was evaluated by the IAF, still prestitutes are going non stop.

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## Abingdonboy

AugenBlick said:


> What is this new rumor that Rafael specs are downgraded. It would be political suicide if the specs do not meet the jet that was evaluated by the IAF, still prestitutes are going non stop.


Haha, the anti-Rafale is nothing if not creative. At every turn the Rafale has faced complete fabrications and slander, it started almost as soon as the MMRCA began when certain losers were making out the Rafale had been rejected at the technical evaluation stage (a few months into the MMRCA) which was ENTIRELY contrary to the actual MMRCA selection process (but logic be damned right?). Then they tried to trip up the Rafale deal once it became L1- utter lies about the French side refusing this and that (ToT, workshare, offset obligations you name it they had tried it) and now the Rafale deal has reached its conclusion they are still at it. The Rafale was the favourite from day one and its competitors had appreciated this and tried their best to kill it so as to make their inferior products shine.

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## #hydra#

sathya said:


> China is bulling around , with enormous strength ..
> We need to be ready .
> Think over about the best solution.
> We chose Rafale since it was the *best possible solution*.


Nope,that is su34. Only su34 have enough range to take off from indian air base and do bombing missiin over china by flying over Tibet. Rafale may be a wonderfull ac with hightech electronics but it lacks the range factor to perform offensive mission on mainland china,Yeas it is good option to deal with Chinese outpist in tibets and possible future plaaf aircraft crossinng lac nd border.


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## sathya

valluvan said:


> We have to spend our resources wisely to mainyain minimum deterrance against china. French r bleeding us by dollars. They charged us frigging $2.3 billion for mirage upgrade. We r paying almost $1 billion per submarine which didn't have aip. Now you want we shel out some $13 billion for 36 jets



Mirage UPG, scorpene - congress efficiency 
Rafale - BJP

It's not France who is bleeding us, it's us who is trading .

@Abingdonboy 
I can't even imagine how much of money needed to develop this country.
Even for a single state like Tamil Nadu, 100 billion $ won't be enough just to improve the governance alone.
We need time, enormous planning, execution to improve society As a whole .

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## Stephen Cohen

AugenBlick said:


> What is this new rumor that Rafael specs are downgraded. It would be political suicide if the specs do not meet the jet that was evaluated by the IAF, still prestitutes are going non stop.



These idiots should check the Specs of The Upgraded Mig 29 and Mirage 2000

The Mirage 2000 Upgrade even contains an element of Rafale ie MDPU
ie Modular Data Processing Unit 

IAF is obsessed with specs ; that is why they have been firm about Rafale
all this while

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## sathya

#hydra# said:


> Nope,that is su34. Only su34 have enough range to take off from indian air base and do bombing missiin over china by flying over Tibet. Rafale may be a wonderfull ac with hightech electronics but it lacks the range factor to perform offensive mission on mainland china,Yeas it is good option to deal with Chinese outpist in tibets and possible future plaaf aircraft crossinng lac nd border.




MMRCA one of the main aim was , not to put all eggs in one basket.


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## WhyCry

Stephen Cohen said:


> @Spectre
> 
> In case you have any doubts about Chinese thinking and intentions
> Please REMEMBER that China has Settled its land Border disputes with
> ALL COUNTRIES EXCEPT India




Your facts are wrong. China has disputed with every country it shares border with (including Russia) except Pakistan. It does not recognize the Mcmohan line the WW II limits.

The problem that china has with India is that of Tibet and Dalai lama. Tibet self autonomous government was overthrown and Indian took them in exile. There still exists a government in exile. To claim Tibet they say arunachal pradesh to be part of Tibet. which is basically a claim to punish India since they don't want anyone to recognize Tibet just like Taiwan.



Stephen Cohen said:


> Hello Sir
> 
> Are we getting Meteor missile



Probably not as they are not in production yet... still testing. Also they are estimated to be around $200,000 a piece. Not in this this price point.

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## sathya

valluvan said:


> Hope atleast rafale jets hav aesa radar




It will, rest assured.

No need to worry, no one helps in submarine reactor tech.. We are slated to get some help there as well..
AMCA will benefit from it..
Many defence industries in private sector will bloom.


It's going to put pressure on Pakistan, forcing them to spend in defence as well.
In all defence sector is going to bloom.

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## Abingdonboy

valluvan said:


> Sir we all know thales paid 10$ million bribe to indian officials in scorpene submarine deal. In the end we hav to pay $1billion per submarine which did not hav aip. Same is happening here, they already paid the bribe in previous tenour


If there was even a shred of evidence for this DCNS would have been blacklisted long ago, Ak Anthony blacklisted many more for a lot less. 


sathya said:


> Mirage UPG, scorpene - congress efficiency
> Rafale - BJP
> 
> It's not France who is bleeding us, it's us who is trading .
> 
> @Abingdonboy
> I can't even imagine how much of money needed to develop this country.
> Even for a single state like Tamil Nadu, 100 billion $ won't be enough just to improve the governance alone.
> We need time, enormous planning, execution to improve society As a whole .


IF IT WAS EASY, everyone would do it. Look around the world- there are more have nots than haves, India won't get there overnight but it is on the right path. 



valluvan said:


> Hope atleast rafale jets hav aesa radar


Seriously? This is the MINIMUM specification for the Rafales coming to the IAF.


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## WhyCry

sathya said:


> Mirage UPG, scorpene - congress efficiency
> Rafale - BJP
> 
> It's not France who is bleeding us, it's us who is trading .
> 
> @Abingdonboy
> I can't even imagine how much of money needed to develop this country.
> Even for a single state like Tamil Nadu, 100 billion $ won't be enough just to improve the governance alone.
> We need time, enormous planning, execution to improve society As a whole .



That's Mirage UPG, scorpene (lost 5 years) - congress inefficiency.

Also development is not an overnight process. it has to be done with people by the people.

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## Abingdonboy

+ @valluvan it's time india/some Indians stopped blaming external parties for troubles at home- XYZ is a failure because ABC paid a bribe to LMO (a foreign entity). It's all too easy to simply blame things in corruption, rather one should ask why the skill levels are so low across the Indian workforce, why so many of India's top talent has gone abroad (perhaps not so much anymore) in search of opportunities, why there is so much inefficiency in so many projects.

As unpalatable as it may be to hear, issues that arose at MDL via a vis the Scorpenes were very much on the Indian side- a lack of industrial know how on the Indian side (causing delays and an inability to absorb ToT) and sheer incompetency of the babus (fail into include even get most basic clauses and elements in the original contract).

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## WhyCry

valluvan said:


> Wil indian rafales have aesa radar?


Yes

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## Abingdonboy

valluvan said:


> I am still cannot believe we r paid $2.3 billion for mirage upgrade while pakistan is getting 8 brand new f16 block 52 from usa for 500million


With exactly 0 industrial benefits for Pakistan. The Mirage 2000 UPG is beautifully complimentary to the Rafales the IAF will be operating and thus the cost, whilst being on the high side, are perfectly justifiable to keep those beasts flying another 20 years.

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## WhyCry

Abingdonboy said:


> + @valluvan it's time india/some Indians stopped blaming external parties for troubles at home- XYZ is a failure because ABC paid a bribe to LMO (a foreign entity). It's all too easy to simply blame things in corruption, rather one should ask why the skill levels are so low across the Indian workforce, why so many of India's top talent has gone abroad (perhaps not so much anymore) in search of opportunities, why there is so much inefficiency in so many projects.
> 
> As unpalatable as it may be to hear, issues that arose at MDL via a vis the Scorpenes were very much on the Indian side- a lack of industrial know how on the Indian side (causing delays and an inability to absorb ToT) and sheer incompetency of the babus (fail into include even get most basic clauses and elements in the original contract).



I am with you and against you. I know that the technological know-how is lesser for the Indian workforce and infrastructure is newly built for the new platforms. But Indian bureaucracy is not having its first day in the field. They have handled big projects and have dealt previously as well (with their share of failures). But we cannot ignore that France tried to pull another Vikramaditya on India with scorpenes so was the case for Rafael (with engine and electronics in the annexure). This does not mean that they are screwing us or product is inferior. 

All in all I would say Parikar is the best man for the job.


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## AugenBlick

valluvan said:


> Wil indian rafales have aesa radar?


So you "know" that Rafaels are downgraded but do not know if they have AESA.

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## WhyCry

Abingdonboy said:


> With exactly 0 industrial benefits for Pakistan. The Mirage 2000 UPG is beautifully complimentary to the Rafales the IAF will be operating and thus the cost, whilst being on the high side, are perfectly justifiable to keep those beasts flying another 20 years.



True and the main issue with the new Rafael would be the integration of communication systems and targeting pod (uses democleas and India uses LITENING) with is already done in case of Mirage.

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## Abingdonboy

Dev Destroyer said:


> I am with you and against you. I know that the technological know-how is lesser for the Indian workforce and infrastructure is newly built for the new platforms. But Indian bureaucracy is not having its first day in the field. They have handled big projects and have dealt previously as well (with their share of failures). But we cannot ignore that France tried to pull another Vikramaditya on India with scorpenes so was the case for Rafael (with engine and electronics in the annexure). This does not mean that they are screwing us or product is inferior.
> 
> All in all I would say Parikar is the best man for the job.


With all due respect, the Scorpene and Rafale/MMRCA deals were/are both more complex than almost all other deals that have come before them (in their respective fields ). I wouldn't blame Indian babus entirely but I would go a large degree 


+ I do see Parrikar more positively now than I had 1 week ago but I would take it further and say MODI is the best man for the job. Make in India, start up India and Skill India are all going to change the face of India (along with other unrelated mega projects ).

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## WhyCry

Abingdonboy said:


> With all due respect, the Scorpene and Rafale/MMRCA deals were/are both more complex than almost all other deals that have come before them (in their respective fields ). I wouldn't blame Indian babus entirely but I would go a large degree
> 
> 
> + I do see Parrikar more positively now than I had 1 week ago but I would take it further and say MODI is the best man for the job. Make in India, start up India and Skill India are all going to change the face of India (along with other unrelated mega projects ).


Couldn't agree more .

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## Abingdonboy

Dev Destroyer said:


> True and the main issue with the new Rafael would be the integration of communication systems and targeting pod (uses democleas and India uses LITENING) with is already done in case of Mirage.


Not only that but the Mirage 2000 UPG has seen a considerable ecosystem established in India to cater for it almost all of which will/can be leveraged for the Rafale in Indian service. In fact, this is a HUGE bonus that no one seems to give much attention to. Any other OEM (SAAB, Boeing, LM etc) would have to set up entirely new supply chains and build partnerships entirely from scratch but Dassualt has already got an extensive presence in this sector and this will only lead to massive cost and efficiency savings when the Rafales come to India. @PARIKRAMA

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## AugenBlick

valluvan said:


> Contrary to speculation that India and France have reached an agreement for the direct purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets, official sources said talks on pricing had reached a critical phase and were expected to be completed in a few months.
> 
> Sources said the differences over pricing had narrowed down considerably, and the talks were in the final phase.
> 
> While the French offer was about €11 billion, India said it would not go beyond €8 billion. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has clarified on various occasions that there will be no compromise on the price.
> 
> A senior diplomat refused to give a timeline for concluding the deal but expressed the hope that it would be done by June.



Hahaha Copy pasta from news traders ...  The deal is done baby @PARIKRAMA has shared many details including work share and indian industrial benefits etc. He has been pretty accurate till now. and he broke the news before these mediaw***s

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## WhyCry

valluvan said:


> I am still cannot believe we r paid $2.3 billion for mirage upgrade while pakistan is getting 8 brand new f16 block 52 from usa for 500million


It is worth it as they are the major pillar for our nuclear deterrence. The are fully capable for dropping our arms if in case the same is required (Hopefully thats never). 

As for Pakistan, they just got their share of bounty for targeting terrorists. US is going to give them thrift store stuff as long they are in and get a route to Afghanistan.


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## AugenBlick

Abingdonboy said:


> Not only that but the Mirage 2000 UPG has seen a considerable ecosystem established in India to cater for it almost all of which will/can be leveraged for the Rafale in Indian service. In fact, this is a HUGE bonus that no one seems to give much attention to. Any other OEM (SAAB, Boeing, LM etc) would have to set up entirely new supply chains and build partnerships entirely from scratch but Dassualt has already got an extensive presence in this sector and this will only lead to massive cost and efficiency savings when the Rafales come to India. @PARIKRAMA


All that is true but most importantly Rafael leaves strategic room for LCA (all variants) and AMCA ... projects that will take our industry to the next level. I say Induct LCA 1A as much as you can and continue to iterate it make MK2 MK3 etc etc whatever. Rafael gives us breather to perfect our planes and allows us to get our hands dirty. This is totally worth the €8.8bil. 
PS: I really did went to have pastries yesterday.

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## PARIKRAMA

was MMRCA Rafale downgraded? Then why would India buy a plane which is now downgraded and perhaps fall below the standard of MMRCA qualification?

In any case anything below that level of qualification will only result in opening a pandora's box in all front.. political and at military level..

i said clearly there will be anti rafale media publication.. you are going to see a lot as the D day comes near..

If AESA radar is not there then with what you are going to give mid course guidance to long range missiles where plan is there for Brahmos NG and Nirbhay ALCM in a later days.. without partial codes how can we locally do the mating and then testing? what about the Astra Mk2/Mk1? what about Meteor missile mid course guidance?

why will India buy a Rafale if its capability is now lowered then the other qualified bird of MMRCA?

Mirage deal had one component whch resulted in much higher costs. In the words of Prasun K Sengupta
"The IAF's upgraded Mirage 2000s have new-build SNECMA M53-P3 turbofans & all older M53-P2 turbofans are being replaced by the -P3. That's why the per-unit cost of upgrading each Mirage 2000 is so high."

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## AugenBlick

valluvan said:


> Deal is still not signed still then all is speculation. The above news is from the hindu which is not newstrader although they r pro communist


Hindu is not a newstrader  It only falls behind NDTV that too only because it is print.

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## PARIKRAMA

AugenBlick said:


> All that is true but most importantly Rafael leaves strategic room for LCA (all variants) and AMCA ... projects that will take our industry to the next level. I say Induct LCA 1A as much as you can and continue to iterate it make MK2 MK3 etc etc whatever. Rafael gives us breather to perfect our planes and allows us to get our hands dirty. This is totally worth the €8.8bil.
> PS: I really did went to have pastries yesterday.


LCA i want them to reach 300 + quickly and for that the delivery schedule needs to be expedited... I hope HAL and whole ecosystem rises up and support it fully

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## WhyCry

@PARIKRAMA I know you broke the news for the deal here. Can you share the details for the actual deal, offsets and the changes that IAF had requested.

Thank you,
Dev


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## AugenBlick

PARIKRAMA said:


> LCA i want them to reach 300 + quickly and for that the delivery schedule needs to be expedited... I hope HAL and whole ecosystem rises up and support it fully


I agree .. I see three big companies TATA, REL , MAHINDRA... most probably REL will get Rafael. The rest can be tier1 vendor(aggregate) for the same.We can give one line of LCA to one of the two(maybe have a tender) so that HAL and it's efficiency can be benchmarked once and for all. They must improve for AMCA/FGFA down the line.

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## AugenBlick

valluvan said:


> Simple question to you guys if we r paying $9billion for rafale, we need $33 billion for 126 rafales, we really can afford this deal


1. The $9bil includes the setting up of two bases including the repair and overhaul facilities for the lifetime of this and future planes.

2. 50% of this will be invested back in our economy.

3. The made in India Planes will be cheaper and will not be saddled with the price of setting up of bases etc.

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## AugenBlick

valluvan said:


> Show me a source were 9 billion dollars include bases, maintenance ?


The bidding and evaluation was done on Life Cycle cost (LCC). If you would have followed the deal from the beginning you would have known this. The figures have always included life cycle cost and will include the new bases / base infra needed for the jets.

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## AugenBlick

valluvan said:


> What u mean by life cycle cost, so u r saying they will maintain rafale without charge us for 30-50 years


No. 
Every aircraft is rated for number of flight hours before it needs overhaul. First minor maintenance than change of engine(life on engine is less than the plane) then structural checks and repairs etc. So the manufacturer gives a "lifetime" and we include the cost of all such changes in the lifetime of the plane. It is never completely without charge but most of the charges are already calculated and factored in. Exactly how much depends on the plane and more knowledgeable members will clarify.

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## sathya

PARIKRAMA said:


> was MMRCA Rafale downgraded? Then why would India buy a plane which is now downgraded and perhaps fall below the standard of MMRCA qualification?
> 
> In any case anything below that level of qualification will only result in opening a pandora's box in all front.. political and at military level..
> 
> i said clearly there will be anti rafale media publication.. you are going to see a lot as the D day comes near..
> 
> If AESA radar is not there then with what you are going to give mid course guidance to long range missiles where plan is there for Brahmos NG and Nirbhay ALCM in a later days.. without partial codes how can we locally do the mating and then testing? what about the Astra Mk2/Mk1? what about Meteor missile mid course guidance?
> 
> why will India buy a Rafale if its capability is now lowered then the other qualified bird of MMRCA?
> 
> Mirage deal had one component whch resulted in much higher costs. In the words of Prasun K Sengupta
> "The IAF's upgraded Mirage 2000s have new-build SNECMA M53-P3 turbofans & all older M53-P2 turbofans are being replaced by the -P3. That's why the per-unit cost of upgrading each Mirage 2000 is so high."



Engine swapped in mirages ?
I never heard about it.. I don't think so too..

I was hoping after rafale deal is done, we ll have M88 in mirages ..



valluvan said:


> I am still cannot believe we r paid $2.3 billion for mirage upgrade while pakistan is getting 8 brand new f16 block 52 from usa for 500million




Pakistan already have infrastructure , logistics , training , spares, bases etc for F16
8 brand new F16 cost is only flyaway unit cost for them.

If they buy a new type of aircraft like J10, then cost will be more.( if life cycle cost is declared instead of flyaway unit cost )



PARIKRAMA said:


> the deal price break up
> 
> price break up approx
> 
> 2 bases - Euro 1.1 Bn x 2 = 2.2 Bn
> Flyaway + weapons - Euro 2.7 Bn
> All support packages - Euro 2.1 Bn
> Customization - Euro 0.8 Bn
> 
> The flyaway + weapons - Euro 75 Mn or USD 84.75 Mn - the same as MMRCA $85 Mn
> 
> Removing weapons cost of USD 10-15 mn implies flyaway at USD 70-75 mn range or Euro 62-66 Mn.
> 
> after removing the VAT and adding marginal corporate profit, DA has given a solid deal to India where its going to use VOLUMES as a key to make humongous profit over next 20 years of production till 2035 and almost 5-6 decades of presence in Indian defense arena
> 
> ++
> some more comments
> 
> base price was initially Euro 1.4 Bn but after much haggling it has been reduced to Euro 1.1 Bn..
> 
> Support package basically contains everything.. what could be further broken down in direct and indirect costs and technology cost...
> 
> modifications have come down a bit.. primarily the NG version of missiles are not ready... of course a part of support package cost built in has 2 active component costs
> 1. RBE 2 AESA partial codes
> 2. Spectra + upgrade partial codes.
> 
> 
> posted in the sticky..




There you go @valluvan

I searched this parikrama post for you..
Read it well..

And read+_ 2 pages around that post for more details .. (Page206)

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## Masterhunter

valluvan said:


> Simple question to you guys if we r paying $9billion for rafale, we need $33 billion for 126 rafales, we really can afford this deal


 
The cost of rafale (flyaway) is about 83M dollar.. So cost of next 90 Planes will be 7.5 billion dollars... 
One base can accommodate upto 3 sqn... So expect one more base for rafale minimum..and that will cost 1.2 billion dollars..
Weapons package will be extra depending on requirement but bare minimum will cost us about 2 billion...
So the total cost of next 90 will be 7.5+1.2+2= 10.7 billion dollars... To have them combat effective...
As they will be made in India so no offsets perse... 
For TOT (which we want) we may some amount that will depend on what is requirement.

Lastly, if you don't know anything...... Plz stop making fool of yourself and stop saying same statement again and again...
Thank you..



valluvan said:


> What u mean by life cycle cost, so u r saying they will maintain rafale without charge us for 30-50 years



The deal also include availability of 90% so for that extra spares are also included in this deal...
Check parikrama post in previous pages... Especially page 193/194 I think

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## SR-91

valluvan said:


> I am still cannot believe we r paid $2.3 billion for mirage upgrade while pakistan is getting 8 brand new f16 block 52 from usa for 500million



America is subsidizing it for Pakistan. American Tax payers money at work.



valluvan said:


> Simple question to you guys if we r paying $9billion for rafale, we need $33 billion for 126 rafales, we really can afford this deal



You don't cough up , let's just go by your figure, 33 billion in one go. Remember the money is just for jets only. It will create a new infrastructure, tools, spares, training etc etc. The money will be given over a period of 30 years. So yes we can afford this deal and LCA and FGFA at the same time. Benefits will outweigh costs by miles.

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## zebra7

valluvan said:


> I am still cannot believe we r paid $2.3 billion for mirage upgrade while pakistan is getting 8 brand new f16 block 52 from usa for 500million



Here is the answer, With the Mirrage 2000 H upgradation, India opted for the Deep Upgradation, which included the Replacement of the Engine also and 499 MICA BVR, that's why the upgradation was so high. Pakistan is getting 8 brand new F-16 Block 52 from USA, without BVR thru FMS Channel. Why Pakistan is so desperate for F-16 Bloc 52 :-

1. Facts :- F-16 Block 52 equipped with Targeting Pod is needed against the war on terror, to locate and drop LGB with precission. --- Bull shit, because F-16 MLUed already have Sniper and JF-17 have WMD targetting Pod. In Reality the 40 F-16 A/B acquired in 80's from Peace Gate -1 and Peace Gate -2, of which 8 were lost due to iteration replacement due, since they have already completed their life Cycle, and the Block A/B whose airframe was designed for the A2A role, are subjected to the Ground attack role mostly are putting lot of strain on the Airframe. Even with the MLU, the avionics were upgraded, but not the engine, and airframe thus needs replacement soon.

2. Facts :- The Same formula applies for the Mirrage 2000 H -- Wrong, because Mirrage 2000 H airframe have life left for 15+ more years, and with the Mirrage UPG upgradation, its engine is been replaced with upgraded engine, and not only the avioinics.

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## proud_indian

zebra7 said:


> Here is the answer, With the Mirrage 2000 H upgradation, India opted for the Deep Upgradation, which included the Replacement of the Engine also and 499 MICA BVR, that's why the upgradation was so high. Pakistan is getting 8 brand new F-16 Block 52 from USA, without BVR thru FMS Channel. Why Pakistan is so desperate for F-16 Bloc 52 :-
> 
> 1. Facts :- F-16 Block 52 equipped with Targeting Pod is needed against the war on terror, to locate and drop LGB with precission. --- Bull shit, because F-16 MLUed already have Sniper and JF-17 have WMD targetting Pod. In Reality the 40 F-16 A/B acquired in 80's from Peace Gate -1 and Peace Gate -2, of which 8 were lost due to iteration replacement due, since they have already completed their life Cycle, and the Block A/B whose airframe was designed for the A2A role, are subjected to the Ground attack role mostly are putting lot of strain on the Airframe. Even with the MLU, the avionics were upgraded, but not the engine, and airframe thus needs replacement soon.
> 
> 2. Facts :- The Same formula applies for the Mirrage 2000 H -- Wrong, because Mirrage 2000 H airframe have life left for 15+ more years, and with the Mirrage UPG upgradation, its engine is been replaced with upgraded engine, and not only the avioinics.




I might be wrong here but you are trying to wake someone who is pretending to be asleep.

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## zebra7

valluvan said:


> Sir mirage upgrade did not include engine upgrade.



SNERMA M53 turbofans are being replaced by the M53-P2 ............



proud_indian said:


> I might be wrong here but you are trying to wake someone who is pretending to be asleep.


Got your Advice, but the message in the form of hint was for my Indian brothers only for their own personal consumption.

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## BON PLAN

zebra7 said:


> 2. Facts :- The Same formula applies for the Mirrage 2000 H -- Wrong, because Mirrage 2000 H airframe have life left for 15+ more years, and with the Mirrage UPG upgradation, its engine is been replaced with upgraded engine, and not only the avioinics.


Never heard anything about an improved M53-P2 ! Maybe you opt for new engine, but not improved. It's what I know and I think.



zebra7 said:


> SNERMA M53-P2 turbofans are being replaced by the M53-P3 ............


M53 P3 don't exist. Sorry !

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## zebra7

BON PLAN said:


> Never heard anything about an improved M53-P2 ! Maybe you opt for new engine, but not improved. It's what I know and I think.
> 
> 
> M53 P3 don't exist. Sorry !



Thanks for correcting me. Its M53 Engine upgraded to M53 P2 engine.


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## zebra7

valluvan said:


> Sir don't give wrong information. Iaf's mirage upgradation program does not include engine upgrade



Dear Valluvan, the upgradation of the Indian Mirrage 2000 H was to the Mirrage 2005 MK2 Standard, and the upgrades includes the M53 P2 engine also. If only the avionics upgrades and the Digital glass cockpit was needed for the upgrades, then India would have easily choosen the Israeli solution. -- Aka Glass cockpits with Indian HAL/Edgewood Mission Computer plus El/M-2032/52 MMR Retrofing plus Python-5 and Derby ER, and Elta Jammers. However India choose, the french one. And they got .............








A modular avionics concept.

New larger lateral displays.

New back-seat colour display repeater.

Helmet-mounted sight.

Automatic terrain-following system based on a digital terrain file.

Digital map on a head-down display.

An aircraft-to-missile datalink with an increased number of channels.

A discrete multimode datalink system.

The new Damocles laser designation pod featuring:
3-5µm infrared imagery,
increased laser range.

A Flir imager integrated into the Damocles pylon.

On-board oxygen generation system.

Combined air-to-air and air-to-ground configurations.

New multi-channel recording system.

Increased maximum take off weight (17.5 t).

Very long range stand-off air-to-ground missiles.

The introduction of the IR Mica missile.

To understand the whole situation, kindly check, that the original plane of the IAF was the 50 off the shelf Mirrage 2000 with 126 build under license build by HAL, however due to economical constrained the plan was stuck. IAF Choice was long fixed to the french Bird which was Mirrage 2000 and now Rafale. IAF already knows the comonality between the Mirrage 2000 and Rafale and that's why Rafale was the choice check out this.






*Check out this news*

<quote>


New Delhi. The Indian Government formally signed a Rs 10,900 crore ($ 2.4 billion, or Euro 1.73 bn appox) deal with the French Dassault and Thales to upgrade the 51 Mirage 2000 combat jets with the Indian Air Force (IAF).


Under the agreement finalized by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and IAF, most of the combat systems like radars and Electronic Warfare (EW) suites would be upgraded to Mirage 2005-plus standards.

There would also be 30 per cent offset, which would boost expertise and production at companies like the state-run HAL and the private sector Samtel, which makes electronic displays and also controls manufacture of a critical component in the helmet mounted cueing system used by pilots of aircraft like the US Boeing F/A 18 Super Hornet.

The parameters for the upgrades have been specified by the IAF’s Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs), and the upgrade would extend the operational life of the aircraft by an estimated 25 years.

The upgraded Mirages would have all-weather 24 x 7 precision fire power capability, a new glass cockpit, terrain mapping navigation, advanced Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) electronics, and Within and Beyond Visual Range (BVR) capability to destroy hostile targets.

A press statement issued by Dassault and Thales from Paris described the contract, signed July 29, as commercial, saying: “Based on the integration of latest generation equipment and systems, the upgrade will further enhance the technical-operational capabilities of the Indian Air Force’s Mirage 2000. The extensive involvement of the Indian industry within the programme will consolidate existing ties with the French aerospace industry and will reinforce long-term cooperation based on cutting edge technologies and the sharing of technical know-how and expertise.”

The Mirages were acquired beginning mid-1985, and this writer was at hand to meet the pilots of the first lot of six aircraft during a stopover in the Qatari capital of Doha. Their flight was then commanded by Wg Cdr (later Air Marshal) P S Ahluwalia.

The aircraft have been maintained in India under French assistance and in their 25-year life, only a couple of accidents have been reported. By all standards, the aircraft has had a tremendous safety record compared to others in the IAF inventory.

It may be noted that the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had cleared the deal just a few days ago, but without the weapons package which is being negotiated separately. The cost of the new precision fire power weapons, to be sourced mostly from Thales and the European MBDA, is reported to be around $ 600 million.

Weapons in any case are separate, and accordingly, the cost of upgrading an aircraft would be around $ 50 million, inclusive of the tools and expertise and 30 per cent offset. As the airframe has substantial life left, the cost of the upgrade would be cheaper by about about 20 to 25 per cent compared to the new Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) that the IAF is set to acquire in large numbers (126 to 189).

But of course, the MRCA would be much more advanced, and is supposed to be equipped with some weapons exclusively in production and control of the US companies and government. Either of the MRCA winner would have to source these systems from them.

Under the Mirage deal, Thales, which manufactures onboard combat and EW systems, would get nearly $ 1.8 billion and the rest would be shared by aircraft manufacturer Dassault, which built and sold the Mirages, and HAL. The latter’s component is around Rs 1008 crores ($ 230 million, or Euro 160 million). The remaining would go to Dassault.

Dassault also has a controlling stake in Thales, acquired a couple of years ago. Its Rafale is one of the two finalists in the MMRCA competition, the other being the European Eurofighter Typhoon.

Notably, HAL would use the amount to import equipment and technical expertise from Thales to build potentially useful capability in upgrading the remaining 47 aircraft in India. It is also likely to spend some more on setting up the facilities.

The process to upgrade the aircraft is rather long, as according to Thales sources, it is like building a new aircraft from scratch except the airframe. New systems would mean literally every thing new except the body; new wiring, a new centre of gravity and everything to be fixed around that.

According to authoritative sources, it would take some four years to build the first lot of the first four aircraft, and the upgrade facilities in India. After that, HAL would upgrade 10 or 11 aircraft per year, ending the programme by about 2020.

But assures Thales: Each aircraft would be like a new fighter, with contemporary combat suites and missiles, including possibly the “most advanced Meteor missile if India wants it.” An active radar guided beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM), it is still under development but is on offer on both the Rafale and Eurofighter.

Under the contract, initially two aircraft would be sent to France to be checked and upgraded there by Dassault and Thales under Indian supervision. Then, two more aircraft would be similarly upgraded at HAL by French engineers and technicians in India as part of the learning curve for Indian engineers.

After that, the equipment supplied by Thales would be fitted on the aircraft in India at HAL’s factory in Bangalore.


© India Strategic

</quote>

Hope this will clear all doubts, because the engine have their own TSL (Technical Service Life) and by no standard the old engine, can serve for 2 decade more.

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## BON PLAN

zebra7 said:


> Dear Valluvan, the upgradation of the Indian Mirrage 2000 H was to the Mirrage 2005 MK2 Standard, and the upgrades includes the M53 P2 engine also. If only the avionics upgrades and the Digital glass cockpit was needed for the upgrades, then India would have easily choosen the Israeli solution. -- Aka Glass cockpits with Indian HAL/Edgewood Mission Computer plus El/M-2032/52 MMR Retrofing plus Python-5 and Derby ER, and Elta Jammers. However India choose, the french one. And they got .............
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A modular avionics concept.
> 
> New larger lateral displays.
> 
> New back-seat colour display repeater.
> 
> Helmet-mounted sight.
> 
> Automatic terrain-following system based on a digital terrain file.
> 
> Digital map on a head-down display.
> 
> An aircraft-to-missile datalink with an increased number of channels.
> 
> A discrete multimode datalink system.
> 
> The new Damocles laser designation pod featuring:
> 3-5µm infrared imagery,
> increased laser range.
> 
> A Flir imager integrated into the Damocles pylon.
> 
> On-board oxygen generation system.
> 
> Combined air-to-air and air-to-ground configurations.
> 
> New multi-channel recording system.
> 
> Increased maximum take off weight (17.5 t).
> 
> Very long range stand-off air-to-ground missiles.
> 
> The introduction of the IR Mica missile.
> To understand the whole situation, kindly check, that the original plane of the IAF was the 50 off the shelf Mirrage 2000 with 126 build under license build by HAL, however due to economical constrained the plan was stuck. IAF Choice was long fixed to the french Bird which was Mirrage 2000 and now Rafale. IAF already knows the comonality between the Mirrage 2000 and Rafale and that's why Rafale was the choice check out this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Check out this news*
> 
> <quote>
> 
> 
> New Delhi. The Indian Government formally signed a Rs 10,900 crore ($ 2.4 billion, or Euro 1.73 bn appox) deal with the French Dassault and Thales to upgrade the 51 Mirage 2000 combat jets with the Indian Air Force (IAF).
> 
> 
> Under the agreement finalized by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and IAF, most of the combat systems like radars and Electronic Warfare (EW) suites would be upgraded to Mirage 2005-plus standards.
> 
> There would also be 30 per cent offset, which would boost expertise and production at companies like the state-run HAL and the private sector Samtel, which makes electronic displays and also controls manufacture of a critical component in the helmet mounted cueing system used by pilots of aircraft like the US Boeing F/A 18 Super Hornet.
> 
> The parameters for the upgrades have been specified by the IAF’s Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs), and the upgrade would extend the operational life of the aircraft by an estimated 25 years.
> 
> The upgraded Mirages would have all-weather 24 x 7 precision fire power capability, a new glass cockpit, terrain mapping navigation, advanced Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) electronics, and Within and Beyond Visual Range (BVR) capability to destroy hostile targets.
> 
> A press statement issued by Dassault and Thales from Paris described the contract, signed July 29, as commercial, saying: “Based on the integration of latest generation equipment and systems, the upgrade will further enhance the technical-operational capabilities of the Indian Air Force’s Mirage 2000. The extensive involvement of the Indian industry within the programme will consolidate existing ties with the French aerospace industry and will reinforce long-term cooperation based on cutting edge technologies and the sharing of technical know-how and expertise.”
> 
> The Mirages were acquired beginning mid-1985, and this writer was at hand to meet the pilots of the first lot of six aircraft during a stopover in the Qatari capital of Doha. Their flight was then commanded by Wg Cdr (later Air Marshal) P S Ahluwalia.
> 
> The aircraft have been maintained in India under French assistance and in their 25-year life, only a couple of accidents have been reported. By all standards, the aircraft has had a tremendous safety record compared to others in the IAF inventory.
> 
> It may be noted that the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had cleared the deal just a few days ago, but without the weapons package which is being negotiated separately. The cost of the new precision fire power weapons, to be sourced mostly from Thales and the European MBDA, is reported to be around $ 600 million.
> 
> Weapons in any case are separate, and accordingly, the cost of upgrading an aircraft would be around $ 50 million, inclusive of the tools and expertise and 30 per cent offset. As the airframe has substantial life left, the cost of the upgrade would be cheaper by about about 20 to 25 per cent compared to the new Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) that the IAF is set to acquire in large numbers (126 to 189).
> 
> But of course, the MRCA would be much more advanced, and is supposed to be equipped with some weapons exclusively in production and control of the US companies and government. Either of the MRCA winner would have to source these systems from them.
> 
> Under the Mirage deal, Thales, which manufactures onboard combat and EW systems, would get nearly $ 1.8 billion and the rest would be shared by aircraft manufacturer Dassault, which built and sold the Mirages, and HAL. The latter’s component is around Rs 1008 crores ($ 230 million, or Euro 160 million). The remaining would go to Dassault.
> 
> Dassault also has a controlling stake in Thales, acquired a couple of years ago. Its Rafale is one of the two finalists in the MMRCA competition, the other being the European Eurofighter Typhoon.
> 
> Notably, HAL would use the amount to import equipment and technical expertise from Thales to build potentially useful capability in upgrading the remaining 47 aircraft in India. It is also likely to spend some more on setting up the facilities.
> 
> The process to upgrade the aircraft is rather long, as according to Thales sources, it is like building a new aircraft from scratch except the airframe. New systems would mean literally every thing new except the body; new wiring, a new centre of gravity and everything to be fixed around that.
> 
> According to authoritative sources, it would take some four years to build the first lot of the first four aircraft, and the upgrade facilities in India. After that, HAL would upgrade 10 or 11 aircraft per year, ending the programme by about 2020.
> 
> But assures Thales: Each aircraft would be like a new fighter, with contemporary combat suites and missiles, including possibly the “most advanced Meteor missile if India wants it.” An active radar guided beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM), it is still under development but is on offer on both the Rafale and Eurofighter.
> 
> Under the contract, initially two aircraft would be sent to France to be checked and upgraded there by Dassault and Thales under Indian supervision. Then, two more aircraft would be similarly upgraded at HAL by French engineers and technicians in India as part of the learning curve for Indian engineers.
> 
> After that, the equipment supplied by Thales would be fitted on the aircraft in India at HAL’s factory in Bangalore.
> 
> 
> © India Strategic
> 
> </quote>
> 
> Hope this will clear all doubts, because the engine have their own TSL (Technical Service Life) and by no standard the old engine, can serve for 2 decade more.


I think indian Mirage 2000 was already filled with M53P2. so maybe they will be refurbished so as to increase life....


----------



## zebra7

BON PLAN said:


> I think indian Mirage 2000 was already filled with M53P2. so maybe they will be refurbished so as to increase life....



Indian Mirage 2000 had both M53 and M53P2, and now upgrade plans includes all M53 P-2. PS two Upgraded planes arived in India in 2015, and rest will be done by HAL in India.

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## zebra7

valluvan said:


> While the upgrade does not involve fitting a new engine, it includes extensive avionics upgrades. Thales is providing a new radar, mission computer and electronic warfare suite, said the French vendors in a statement today. In place of the old analogue instruments in the cockpit, the pilots will now have an "all-glass cockpit", with video displays of flight parameters and weapons aiming and operation. They will also have helmet-mounted sights, which allow pilots to aim weapons at targets merely by looking at them.



Valluvan allow me some time time, so that I can search, the link you wanted.

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## zebra7

valluvan said:


> Sir it is from business standard. Google indian mirage upgrade, u will get this news in first page



Valluvan as I said, allow me some time, and I promise I will quote you !!

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## Picdelamirand-oil

*Sagem, OIS-AT To Co-Produce AASM Hammer In India*
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/15857/Sagem__OIS_AT_To_Co_Produce_AASM_Hammer_In_India#.VxX3wNSLTGh

Begining of industrial move

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## PARIKRAMA

DAC approval happening on papers exchanged possibly on April 21 followed by visits for formal signing..

@Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @Vauban

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> DAC approval happening on papers exchanged possibly on April 21 followed by visits for formal signing..
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @Vauban


Is it the same source?


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## SR-91

valluvan said:


> Wo
> 
> So you r saying we wil have to pay only $10 billion for next 90 jets . Delusions of highest order facepalm



Facepalm urself, I took the time out to explain u. If u wanna act like a idiot then I cannot help u. You have some serious comprehensive delinquencies.


----------



## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Is it the same source?



Yes.. came to know morning.. but was out on work.. he commented someone from government will give a comment today itself about the possible DAC approval.. That person wont be DM MP but somebody junior.

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## AugenBlick

valluvan said:


> You r only acting like a stupid, Qatar is paying $7.02 billion for 24 jets . I asked simple question .how we will be able to pay for 126 jets. Do you really believe french wil sell 90 jets for $10 billion ?


listen Kid you are wasting everyone's time. All these questions have been answered in this thread go back 70 pages and start reading.

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## SR-91

valluvan said:


> You r only acting like a stupid, Qatar is paying $7.02 billion for 24 jets . I asked simple question .how we will be able to pay for 126 jets. Do you really believe french wil sell 90 jets for $10 billion ?




Where in the world are you getting 90 jets for 10 billion?


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## SR-91

PARIKRAMA said:


> DAC approval happening on papers exchanged possibly on April 21 followed by visits for formal signing..
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @Vauban




New Delhi: The Government on Tuesday said that most of the issues concerning the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft from France have been duly addressed and a deal would be finalised soon.

New agency PTI quoted Rao Inderjit Singh, MoS Defence, as saying, ''Most hitches in Rafale fighter plane deal have been addressed. Next Defence Acquisition Council meet will address the remaining issues.''

The announcement from the government is significant as a high-level team from France is expected to arrive here next month to firm up the order for the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft by India as both countries have managed to narrow down their differences over pricing.










The development comes nearly four months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Francois Hollande signed a memorandum of agreement to purchase 36 Rafale combat jets.

The Indian side has been negotiating hard to bring down the price with Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar refusing to buckle under pressure even as questions were being raised about the delay in signing the contract.

The deal comes with the clause of 50% offsets, which will be a bonanza for the domestic industry as it will lead to business worth at least €3 billion and create new jobs in India.

The tough part of the negotiations that began in July 2015 was to get the French side to agree to 50% offsets in the deal. Initially, Dassault Aviation, makers of Rafale, was willing to agree to reinvest only 30% of the value of its contract in Indian entities to meet the offset obligations.

The French side finally agreed to invest 50% of the value following a phone conversation between Modi and Hollande late last year.

The commercial negotiations, as in the pricing of the planes, equipment and other issues, actually began only in mid-January this year.

Government sources said the deal has not been concluded yet but it is in “final stages”.

The sources said the price for 36 Rafales, as per the UPA tender, keeping the cost escalation and dollar rate in mind, comes to a little over Rs.65,000 crore. This includes the cost involved in making changes India has sought in the aircraft, including Israeli helmet mounted display and some specific weaponry, among others.

“The effort is to bring down the price to less than €8 billion (Rs.59,000 crore),” the sources said. The expectation is that the final deal will be clinched by May-end.

Under the proposed deal, French companies apart from Dassault Aviation, will provide several aeronautics, electronics and micro-electronics technologies to comply with the offset obligation.



Companies like Safran and Thales will join Dassault in providing state-of-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles and materials for electronics and micro-electronics.


*http://zeenews.india.com/news/india...ddressed-dac-to-meet-soon-centre_1877681.html*

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## Ankit Kumar 002

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/722453502270709762
Junior def minister 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/722429848623439872
Also have a read http://www.indiasnews.net/index.php/sid/243308631
@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy 

"I can only tell you that so far most of the hitches that were there had been addressed. A few (other) things will be addressed when possibly the matter comes before the DAC in the next meeting and thereafter I think the road shall be clear," Singh told reporters on the sidelines of a joint Air Force-CII seminar on Make in India on Tuesday.
When asked we have reports from Bundelkhand that people are forced to eat chapatis made of grass, in such circumstances can India afford to buy 36 Rafale that would cost around Rs 65,000 crore, Singh said, "A nation prospers when it is safe from all sides like air and water, and if that safety is not there, we won't be able to have chapattis made of even grass."
"Today Rafale is our necessity, while LCA is entirely different from Rafael; we need both. We are trying to invest our resources in right manner so as to make our air force more capable," he added.
India and France in January signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for the purchase of Rafale.
According to reports, 36 Rafales will cost a little over Rs 65,000 crore and effort is on to bring down the price to les s than Euros Rs 59,000 crore. (ANI)



PARIKRAMA said:


> DAC approval happening on papers exchanged possibly on April 21 followed by visits for formal signing..
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @Vauban



It says the French officials will come back in may.... I am getting a feeling k will never forget this May in my life. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/721628029777129472

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## PARIKRAMA

@Ankit Kumar 002 

@Stephen Cohen ,can confirm i said wait for May month for good news..

here





Date would be last week Wednesday or 13th
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-192#post-8239382

and here





https://defence.pk/threads/u-s-keen-to-build-fighter-jets-in-india.426355/page-3#post-8236863

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## Ankit Kumar 002

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Ankit Kumar 002
> 
> @Stephen Cohen ,can confirm i said wait for May month for good news..
> 
> here
> 
> View attachment 301139
> 
> Date would be last week Wednesday or 13th
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-192#post-8239382
> 
> and here
> 
> View attachment 301140
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/u-s-keen-to-build-fighter-jets-in-india.426355/page-3#post-8236863



Well you have got some serious sources and analysis potential at your service. I hope to see your predictions on S400 too.

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## Masterhunter

valluvan said:


> Sorry this figure is said by another poster master hunter in 218 page
> 
> 
> I followed all this, now tell me how much india will pay for 126 jets


Yes mate ... I said it.....

As u calculate the price of rafale by dividing 8.8 billion dollars/36 or as in Qatar order 7.2 billion dollars/24...
I calculated by flyaway cost...
Search for flyaway cost of rafale and it will come about 85 M dollar each so with 90 planes means ...7.65 billion dollar...
Weapons and spares extra...

This is also one way of calculating rafale cost.... Don't you agree..?..

So unless u agree that till the time complete package of deal is out in open 36 rafale we don't know how much actually it will cost.

Till that time it happens, I think it's better u stop..

@ as for pak purchase of 8F16 for 500 M ... It's flyaway cost... With no weapon, spares, and no offset/TOT...
So these etwo can't be compared...

I hope now u understand a bit

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## migflug

Bjp twitter account. Looks like the deal is complete

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## Picdelamirand-oil

*India and France to Finalize $8.9 Billion Deal for 36 Rafales*
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...finalize-89-billion-deal-36-rafales/83221878/

So, from the article:





Thirty percent offsets will be embarked for future military aviation *research and development (R&D) *programs and the remaining 20 percent will be with Indian [defense] industries making components for Rafale.

Safran and Thales will join Dassault in providing state-of-the-art technologies in *stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles*, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics,

IAF wants and includes Mica air-to-air missile, Scalp cruise missile and Meteor beyond-visual-range missile and precision-guided munitions.

An IAF source said India-specific Rafale aircraft will be able to carry 10 tons of weaponry. *(this means that Indian Rafale will have an improved M-88)*

The first Rafale is expected to be delivered within 20 months of signing the G2G agreement. (*This mean that it's already in manufacturing*)

There is a long-term requirement of about 10 squadrons of Rafale aircraft (say *200 aircraft, *including missile warning radar)

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> *India and France to Finalize $8.9 Billion Deal for 36 Rafales*
> http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...finalize-89-billion-deal-36-rafales/83221878/
> 
> So, from the article:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirty percent offsets will be embarked for future military aviation *research and development (R&D) *programs and the remaining 20 percent will be with Indian [defense] industries making components for Rafale.
> 
> Safran and Thales will join Dassault in providing state-of-the-art technologies in *stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles*, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics,
> 
> IAF wants and includes Mica air-to-air missile, Scalp cruise missile and Meteor beyond-visual-range missile and precision-guided munitions.
> 
> An IAF source said India-specific Rafale aircraft will be able to carry 10 tons of weaponry. *(this means that Indian Rafale will have an improved M-88)*
> 
> The first Rafale is expected to be delivered within 20 months of signing the G2G agreement. (*This mean that it's already in manufacturing*)
> 
> There is a long-term requirement of about 10 squadrons of Rafale aircraft (say *200 aircraft, *including missile warning radar)


There you go Sir..

Offset clarity there..

Technologies getting shared clear which i had said with Radar RBE2 AESA and Spectra

Armament is clear and meteor is there and so also scalp @Stephen Cohen

I clearly said about improved engines here... and i said this too recently that our rafales will have new engines

Its being manufactured and so is the new engine program.. Engine program is running close to 10 months.. so reasonable time for both planes and engines..


I said 300 rafales and 100+ in IN and now its clear IAF need is 10 sqd.. You will hear about IN part too soon..

customizations of the indian missiles are not fully ready and hence we will do it in India and do again the whole testing + certification.. i said NG version of missiles are not ready yet..


As i Said in other forum.. ppl can laugh and mock me.. but strangely i did not digress from what i came to know and put it out here knowing very well the backslash risk..

Anyway project execution is the key now..

MII should be closed by Dec 16 or max by Mar 17.. Then its a full big project for India..


@Abingdonboy @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @zebra7 @cerberus @Ankit Kumar 002 @Stephen Cohen @Masterhunter @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002

Enjoy.. Things will be leaked like this and it will be out in open soon..

what no one will say officially is the help in NG SSBN and SSN program.. DCNS is soon coming for a project part for INS Vishal... France is getting a strategic role officially..

Expect some more goodies in coming times..


_edited to add customization point_

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## #hydra#

Y


PARIKRAMA said:


> There you go Sir..
> 
> Offset clarity there..
> 
> Technologies getting shared clear which i had said with Radar RBE2 AESA and Spectra
> 
> Armament is clear and meteor is there and so also scalp @Stephen Cohen
> 
> I clearly said about improved engines here... and i said this too recently that our rafales will have new engines
> 
> Its being manufactured and so is the new engine program.. Engine program is running close to 10 months.. so reasonable time for both planes and engines..
> 
> 
> I said 300 rafales and 100+ in IN and now its clear IAF need is 10 sqd.. You will hear about IN part too soon..
> 
> customizations of the indian missiles are not fully ready and hence we will do it in India and do again the whole testing + certification.. i said NG version of missiles are not ready yet..
> 
> 
> As i Said in other forum.. ppl can laugh and mock me.. but strangely i did not digress from what i came to know and put it out here knowing very well the backslash risk..
> 
> Anyway project execution is the key now..
> 
> MII should be closed by Dec 16 or max by Mar 17.. Then its a full big project for India..
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @zebra7 @cerberus @Ankit Kumar 002 @Stephen Cohen @Masterhunter @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002
> 
> Enjoy.. Things will be leaked like this and it will be out in open soon..
> 
> what no one will say offcially is the help in SSBN and SSN program.. DCNS is soon coming for a project part for INS Vishal... France is getting a strategic role officially..
> 
> Expect some more goodies in coming times..
> 
> 
> _edited to add customization point_


Man u r really a holy grail with lot of informations... wants to know about s400,amca,engine for amca,and aura from u...

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## PARIKRAMA

I had asked my source about one particular aspect..

Little is known about Spectra database.. It seems Our NSA Mr Doval has worked out some quid pro quo structure for that... Ours wont be empty for sure.. In return we may provide some data pointers/emission for the database.. Something about periodic sharing and exchange.... Not disclosed is the extent..

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## Spectre

PARIKRAMA said:


> There you go Sir..
> 
> Offset clarity there..
> 
> Technologies getting shared clear which i had said with Radar RBE2 AESA and Spectra
> 
> Armament is clear and meteor is there and so also scalp @Stephen Cohen
> 
> I clearly said about improved engines here... and i said this too recently that our rafales will have new engines
> 
> Its being manufactured and so is the new engine program.. Engine program is running close to 10 months.. so reasonable time for both planes and engines..
> 
> 
> I said 300 rafales and 100+ in IN and now its clear IAF need is 10 sqd.. You will hear about IN part too soon..
> 
> customizations of the indian missiles are not fully ready and hence we will do it in India and do again the whole testing + certification.. i said NG version of missiles are not ready yet..
> 
> 
> As i Said in other forum.. ppl can laugh and mock me.. but strangely i did not digress from what i came to know and put it out here knowing very well the backslash risk..
> 
> Anyway project execution is the key now..
> 
> MII should be closed by Dec 16 or max by Mar 17.. Then its a full big project for India..
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @zebra7 @cerberus @Ankit Kumar 002 @Stephen Cohen @Masterhunter @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002
> 
> Enjoy.. Things will be leaked like this and it will be out in open soon..
> 
> what no one will say officially is the help in NG SSBN and SSN program.. DCNS is soon coming for a project part for INS Vishal... France is getting a strategic role officially..
> 
> Expect some more goodies in coming times..
> 
> 
> _edited to add customization point_



The whole thing can go horribly wrong if the wrong MII partner is chosen. AFAIK India has a veto on the partner DA will chose and hope external influences and vested interested do not drive the choice.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Spectre said:


> The whole thing can go horribly wrong if the wrong MII partner is chosen. AFAIK India has a veto on the partner DA will chose and hope external influences and vested interested do not drive the choice.


From my point of view India had a veto on the partner DA will chose for MMRCA, but not for this deal.

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## Spectre

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> From my point of view India had a veto on the partner DA will chose for MMRCA, but not for this deal.



Tough to say anything for sure as details are not out and perhaps not even negotiated where MII is concerned, HAL was the sole choice in MMRCA hence there was so question of veto as such. Veto comes into play when there are more than one choice.


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## Stephen Cohen

Spectre said:


> The whole thing can go horribly wrong if the wrong MII partner is chosen. AFAIK India has a veto on the partner DA will chose and hope external influences and vested interested do not drive the choice.



IF India wants Dassault to deliver all that it has committed then we will have
to give maximum control to Dassault 

The earlier MMRCA failed exactly because of control issues between HAL and Dassault 

The JV this time will be controlled and managed by Dassault ; One Indian Private company 
and may be HAL for technology transfer and absorbtion 

Though our rules allow for 49 percent equity by the Foreign partner 
It can be extended to 51 % in exceptional cases

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## AugenBlick

Stephen Cohen said:


> IF India wants Dassault to deliver all that it has committed then we will have
> to give maximum control to Dassault
> 
> The earlier MMRCA failed exactly because of control issues between HAL and Dassault
> 
> The JV this time will be controlled and managed by Dassault ; One Indian Private company
> and may be HAL for technology transfer and absorbtion
> 
> Though our rules allow for 49 percent equity by the Foreign partner
> It can be extended to 51 % in exceptional cases


It all depends the ToT and skill-up gradation component in the deal.

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## Stephen Cohen

AugenBlick said:


> It all depends the ToT and skill-up gradation component in the deal.



http://www.business-standard.com/ar...xceed-49-if-ceo-is-indian-114080701271_1.html


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## dadeechi

*India Buys French Fighter Jets—With a Whopping Pricetag*
*Rafale fighters are not cheap. At all.*

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 Pin 




By Kyle Mizokami
Apr 19, 2016



India has agreed to buy a slew of advanced fighter jets from France. The deal, worth $8.8 billion, will provide India with 36 Rafale multi-role fighters for a staggering average cost of $244 million each. 

The Dassault Rafale was conceived in the early 1980s to be one multi-role fighter that could replace six different fighter and attack aircraft. The plane is almost completely French, with fuselage, avionics, engines and weapons all made in that country. Rafales have flown in combat in Afghanistan, Libya, Mail and Iraq. France operates 140 Rafales including the Rafale M, a navy version of the fighter featuring strengthened landing gear and a tail hook for use on aircraft carriers.


Although relatively small compared to planes like the Eurofighter Typhoon and F-22 Raptor, Rafale packs a powerful punch. Twelve wing-mounted hard points can carry a combination of air-to-air missiles, air-to-ground missiles, sensors, and drop tanks. Despite the fact that the Rafale is now a 30-year-old design, upgrades such as the RBE2 AA active electronic scanning array (AESA) radar, Damocles targeting pod, Meteor air-to-air missiles, and SCALP cruise missiles have kept the design competitive with other so-called "4+ generation" fighters.


Still, $244 million per aircraft is a lot of money. Why does Rafale cost so much? Exchange rates almost certainly play a role. And in addition to the plane itself, there's also a need for support and maintenance equipment and munitions. Part of the problem with Rafale is that aside from Paveway laser-guided bombs, it uses mostly French weapons that are incompatible with the rest of India's stockpile. 

India is only the third international customer for Rafale. While the fighter has been on the market for decades, Rafale's first overseas sale happened just recently when Qatar bought 24 planes and Egypt followed shortly thereafter. Rafale will be a strong candidate to replace Canada's aging F/A-18 Hornet fighters when those need to retire.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a20448/india-buys-french-fighters-rafale/

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## Taygibay

Quic remarks :




Picdelamirand-oil said:


> (this means that Indian Rafale will have an improved M-88)





PARIKRAMA said:


> I clearly said about improved engines here... and i said this too recently that our rafales will have new engines
> 
> Its being manufactured and so is the new engine program..



Great part to explain ToT value in practice. So they're not really new engines, not 9T.
They are the same engines found in French Rafales but the power output is favoured
over the engine life, fuel fraction and so on. The difference is in choice of parts or parts
materials and FADEC programming.
They are different enough though to allow for the special bits to be added in India. You
receive a half-dressed M-88 core and put in the parts only found in your version.
Some will complain of screwdriver ToT but in reality it requires skills aplenty. It also
mean that other power vs economic buyers could have their engines uprated in India.



Stephen Cohen said:


> It can be extended to 51 % in exceptional cases



It has to be allowed, even with an Indian CEO Certain ToT packages would not be legal or acceptable without it.



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Thirty percent offsets will be embarked for future military aviation *research and development (R&D) *programs and the remaining 20 percent will be with Indian [defense] industries making components for Rafale.



That's very interesting. An honest Indian who doesn't believe all to be rosy in Bharat
will be thrilled! MKI apart, Tejas not being too remarkable, that most of the ToT will go
to future projects is encouraging. What's done is done and eyes on the future!

Considering how much time so many spend dwelling on the past, it's a brand new era!

Good evening all, Tay.

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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Safran and Thales will join Dassault in providing state-of-the-art technologies in *stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles*, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics,










Picdelamirand-oil said:


> An IAF source said India-specific Rafale aircraft will be able to carry 10 tons of weaponry. *(this means that Indian Rafale will have an improved M-88)*










Picdelamirand-oil said:


> The first Rafale is expected to be delivered within 20 months of signing the G2G agreement. (*This mean that it's already in manufacturing*)


20 months?? That means very early in 2018 the first Rafale will touch down in India








dadeechi said:


> *India Buys French Fighter Jets—With a Whopping Pricetag*
> *Rafale fighters are not cheap. At all.*


And the Americans would have been so much cheaper, right? Once again, no effort given to present a nuanced view- as far as idiots are concerned 100% of this $8.8BN is going purely to buy 36 jets, there is absolutely nothing else of benefit coming along with them.

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## dadeechi

Abingdonboy said:


> And the Americans would have been so much cheaper, right? Once again, no effort given to present a nuanced view- as far as idiots are concerned 100% of this $8.8BN is going purely to buy 36 jets, there is absolutely nothing else of benefit coming along with them.



one more here

https://defence.pk/threads/rafale-jets-vs-ghas-ki-roti.427489/


----------



## anant_s

PARIKRAMA said:


> There you go Sir..
> 
> Offset clarity there..
> 
> Technologies getting shared clear which i had said with Radar RBE2 AESA and Spectra
> 
> Armament is clear and meteor is there and so also scalp @Stephen Cohen
> 
> I clearly said about improved engines here... and i said this too recently that our rafales will have new engines
> 
> Its being manufactured and so is the new engine program.. Engine program is running close to 10 months.. so reasonable time for both planes and engines..
> 
> 
> I said 300 rafales and 100+ in IN and now its clear IAF need is 10 sqd.. You will hear about IN part too soon..
> 
> customizations of the indian missiles are not fully ready and hence we will do it in India and do again the whole testing + certification.. i said NG version of missiles are not ready yet..
> 
> 
> As i Said in other forum.. ppl can laugh and mock me.. but strangely i did not digress from what i came to know and put it out here knowing very well the backslash risk..
> 
> Anyway project execution is the key now..
> 
> MII should be closed by Dec 16 or max by Mar 17.. Then its a full big project for India..
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @AUSTERLITZ @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @zebra7 @cerberus @Ankit Kumar 002 @Stephen Cohen @Masterhunter @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002
> 
> Enjoy.. Things will be leaked like this and it will be out in open soon..
> 
> what no one will say officially is the help in NG SSBN and SSN program.. DCNS is soon coming for a project part for INS Vishal... France is getting a strategic role officially..
> 
> Expect some more goodies in coming times..
> 
> 
> _edited to add customization point_



yesterday economic times carried out an article on reliance industries foray in defence sector and it mentioned with great confidence about Reliance being a beneficiary of offset clause from Rafale deal. I think there is a lot going on (undercurrent one might say) and there is a lot more to deal what meets the eye.
I'm very hopeful that after this 36 deal, real ballgame would begin with manufacturing lines created here in India for Rafale.
@Abingdonboy

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Taygibay said:


> Quic remarks :
> 
> Great part to explain ToT value in practice. So they're not really new engines, not 9T.
> They are the same engines found in French Rafales but the power output is favoured
> over the engine life, fuel fraction and so on. The difference is in choice of parts or parts
> materials and FADEC programming.
> They are different enough though to allow for the special bits to be added in India. You
> receive a half-dressed M-88 core and put in the parts only found in your version.
> Some will complain of screwdriver ToT but in reality it requires skills aplenty. It also
> mean that other power vs economic buyers could have their engines uprated in India.


http://www.air-defense.net/forum/topic/15718-armée-de-lair-du-qatar/?do=findComment&comment=911674
http://www.air-defense.net/forum/topic/15718-armée-de-lair-du-qatar/?do=findComment&comment=919763

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## BON PLAN

zebra7 said:


> 1. UAE signed Rafale and Scorpean Submarine Deal


??? Never read such a news. It would be nice, but not inked so far.



PARIKRAMA said:


> "The IAF's upgraded Mirage 2000s have new-build SNECMA M53-P3 turbofans & all older M53-P2 turbofans are being replaced by the -P3. That's why the per-unit cost of upgrading each Mirage 2000 is so high."


??? No P3 in the pipe. Maybe refurbished P2, but no P3. Or it's a very very new news.


----------



## Stephen Cohen

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...finalize-89-billion-deal-36-rafales/83221878/

The French Embassy source said, "Thirty percent offsets will be embarked for future military aviation research and development (R&D) programs and the remaining 20 percent will be with Indian [defense] industries making components for Rafale."

To execute the offsets, several French companies including Safran and Thales will join Dassault in providing state-of-the-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics, the French Embassy source said.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meanwhile, the "state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has almost finalized the future defense R&D projects in which French defense companies will participate as technology partners," the MoD source added but refused to give details on the R&D projects.

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @Spectre @zebra7 @MilSpec 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SO ; DRDO is also getting a lot of technology transfers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BON PLAN said:


> ??? No P3 in the pipe. Maybe refurbished P2, but no P3. Or it's a very very new news.



Dear Sir

P3 is a reality ; It has been around for A while

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2012/08/Engage_02.pdf

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## BON PLAN

Stephen Cohen said:


> Dear Sir
> 
> P3 is a reality ; It has been around for A while
> 
> http://www.dassault-aviation.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2012/08/Engage_02.pdf


First time I read something about.

I apologize. 

When will it be induced?

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## MehrotraPrince

This is reply to those who think that we barely can afford 36 rafales, and 126+ rafales is either pipe dream or will cost India 40-60 billion $........or even 400 billion $....according to some high IQ gentleman.

Their logic, since you people are buying 36 Rafales at around 7.7 billion euros which means 1 Rafale=8.87/36=246.39 million $...........what can I say...........use burnol or start using your brain.

Truth is 1 Rafale is close to 85 million $ and rest includes weapons, spare parts for 10 years, setting of two maintenance depots and most importantly transfer of few technologies.

36 Rafales = 36 X 85 =3.06 billion $
weapons per Rafale = 20-25 million $ = 36X20 or 36 X 25 = 720-900 million $
(we are getting two types of air to air missiles as well as two types of air to ground missiles)
Two maintenance depots = 2 X 600 =1.2 billion $ minimum
so Total = 3.06 + .72 - .9 + 1.2 = around 5-5.16 billion $
Now 8.87-5.10= 3.77 billion $ (this includes spare parts for 10 years + technology transfer)
For those who are new, total lifetime maintenance for aircraft = 2-3 times cost of aircraft, for 40 years period, which means in case of rafale if we consider 2.5 as average then 10 year maintenance cost = 2.5 X 85 /4 = 53.12 million $.
Which means for 36 aircraft = 36 X 53.12 = 1.92 billion $, so we are paying 3.77 - 1.92 = 1.85 billion $ for technology transfer(not to forget 50% offsets).

*Note:* These are all rough estimates.

Now lets compare Su 30MKI with Rafales:
Su 30 MKI: 60 million $
Total Service life(airframe): 6000 hr
Overhaul(airframe): 1500 hr
Engine AL-31FP : 87.7 % made in India( by components)
Engine life : 1500 hr
Overhaul period: 500 hr

Rafale: 85 million $
Total service life(airframe) : 8000 hr
Overhaul(airframe): 2500+ hr
Engine M88:
Engine life: 4000 Hr
Overhaul Period: 2000 Hr

You can clearly see Rafale is more than 33 % better than Su 30 MKI while Su 30 MKI is 40 % cheaper, not to forget some critical technologies we are getting with Rafales.

Now decide can India afford Rafales or not...........we are already operating more than 220 Su 30 MKI so we can easly afford 200 Rafales for IAF.

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## zebra7

Can anybody explain me what is this ??

*It's Not Broken, The Open Rotor Turbine Is Supposed to Look Like That*






This is not a broken turboprop engine. It's a new radical new aircraft engine design by French engine manufacturer Snecma, one that will forgo the traditional bypass system and remove the engine ducting altogether while reducing fuel consumption, greenhouse gas emissions, and engine noise.

Modern aircraft engines rely nearly exclusively on turbofan technology, which allows a portion of its incoming air to bypass the engine's combustion chamber and generate additional thrust when expelled with hot, compressed exhaust gases. However, the prototype engine above completely does away with the ducting found on conventional engines, instead allowing the counter-rotating fans to spin in open air.

"An aircraft engine's efficiency and consumption depend on the amount of air the fans draw and eject at slow speeds," Snecma Research & Technology Director Pierre Guillaume said in a press statement. "With the open rotor, we will be able to considerably increase that drawn air flow because we won't have any ducting around the fans. And that will improve consumption and cut CO2 emissions." What's more, the current 1:5 scale prototype engine is already testing at 10 dB below the noise levels of conventional engines, about what CFM's LEAP engines currently produce.


The Snecma team expects to have a full-size prototype ready for bench testing by 2015 and plans to install it for flight testing on an A380 by early 2019. Should the program continue without any major setbacks, Sneca hopes to begin commercial production of the open fan engines by 2030. Can't wait to see how these handle bird strikes. [Defense Update - _Image: Sneca_]

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## Abingdonboy

MehrotraPrince said:


> we are already operating more than 220 Su 30 MKI


FInal Su-30MKI figure in the IAF will be around 320 from what I hear.


+ great post brother but I doubt you'll convince those fools who cling to the notion that the Rafale is gold-plated and somehow the most unaffordable product ever created.

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## Taygibay

BON PLAN said:


> ??? Never read such a news. It would be nice, but not inked so far.



It could be true, Bon Plan mec! At his Results 2016, Trappier's account of the deliveries
for this year and the next showed an excessive trickle down. Then he said 2018 would be
.... the year of the Rafale.
Now add this to the independent article on the UAE spreading a delayed deal output :
Original last November :
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-dubai-airshow-emirates-fighters-idUSKCN0T01AQ20151111
Revised version in March :
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/15...ult_Rafale_Order_to_2017_or_2018#.Vxd5-2Nh2hc
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...ats-arabes-unis-s-eloigne-en-2016-557745.html

The idea is that the deal already exists and is being spread both to allow
the 2000-9 "relocation" and to fit the changing line's schedule.
For the latter, that means waiting for the upscaling to be in effect and then
getting 3 batches over a few years at higher, compressed rates of acquisition.

In some places, things move before signing officially.

@Picdelamirand-oil

Quelle candeur! No disrespect at all for the engineer, mon bon monsieur ( /my good sir )
but I don't believe in zero-zero-zero upgrades. My religion forbids it!
Same cost, same lifetime, same use but better performances? Same Bu[[sh1t, you mean?
That never happens in the real customer world.

Now, I trust Safran the engine maker entirely ... but Safran the goods peddler? Not so much!

Availability, no problem but ISO-everything? 

Allez, Great day and convo all, Tay.

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## Taygibay

zebra7 said:


> Can anybody explain me what is this ??



In a nutshell, it's the future of transport aviation engines.
Gas savings and all that!

Small hurdle for fighter applications, you don't want to see
what happens to those blades tips at speeds over Mach ...
especially not if you're in the cockpit!!!

Good day to you, buddy, Tay.

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## BON PLAN

zebra7 said:


> Can anybody explain me what is this ??
> 
> *It's Not Broken, The Open Rotor Turbine Is Supposed to Look Like That*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is not a broken turboprop engine. It's a new radical new aircraft engine design by French engine manufacturer Snecma, one that will forgo the traditional bypass system and remove the engine ducting altogether while reducing fuel consumption, greenhouse gas emissions, and engine noise.
> 
> Modern aircraft engines rely nearly exclusively on turbofan technology, which allows a portion of its incoming air to bypass the engine's combustion chamber and generate additional thrust when expelled with hot, compressed exhaust gases. However, the prototype engine above completely does away with the ducting found on conventional engines, instead allowing the counter-rotating fans to spin in open air.
> 
> "An aircraft engine's efficiency and consumption depend on the amount of air the fans draw and eject at slow speeds," Snecma Research & Technology Director Pierre Guillaume said in a press statement. "With the open rotor, we will be able to considerably increase that drawn air flow because we won't have any ducting around the fans. And that will improve consumption and cut CO2 emissions." What's more, the current 1:5 scale prototype engine is already testing at 10 dB below the noise levels of conventional engines, about what CFM's LEAP engines currently produce.
> 
> 
> The Snecma team expects to have a full-size prototype ready for bench testing by 2015 and plans to install it for flight testing on an A380 by early 2019. Should the program continue without any major setbacks, Sneca hopes to begin commercial production of the open fan engines by 2030. Can't wait to see how these handle bird strikes. [Defense Update - _Image: Sneca_]



Is it the last M88 XX engine for Rafale ?

it's a joke.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Taygibay said:


> @Picdelamirand-oil
> 
> Quelle candeur! No disrespect at all for the engineer, mon bon monsieur ( /my good sir )
> but I don't believe in zero-zero-zero upgrades. My religion forbids it!
> Same cost, same lifetime, same use but better performances? Same Bu[[sh1t, you mean?
> That never happens in the real customer world.
> 
> Now, I trust Safran the engine maker entirely ... but Safran the goods peddler? Not so much!
> 
> Availability, no problem but ISO-everything?


This is because you argues with constant technology

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Some pain here ↓↓

India Buys French Fighter Jets—With a Whopping Pricetag

India has agreed to buy a slew of advanced fighter jets from France. The deal, worth $8.8 billion, will provide India with 36 Rafale multi-role fighters for a staggering average cost of $244 million each. 

The Dassault Rafale was conceived in the early 1980s to be one multi-role fighter that could replace six different fighter and attack aircraft. The plane is almost completely French, with fuselage, avionics, engines and weapons all made in that country. Rafales have flown in combat in Afghanistan, Libya, Mail and Iraq. France operates 140 Rafales including the Rafale M, a navy version of the fighter featuring strengthened landing gear and a tail hook for use on aircraft carriers.

Advertisement - Continue Reading Below
Although relatively small compared to planes like the Eurofighter Typhoon and F-22 Raptor, Rafale packs a powerful punch. Twelve wing-mounted hard points can carry a combination of air-to-air missiles, air-to-ground missiles, sensors, and drop tanks. Despite the fact that the Rafale is now a 30-year-old design, upgrades such as the RBE2 AA active electronic scanning array (AESA) radar, Damocles targeting pod, Meteor air-to-air missiles, and SCALP cruise missiles have kept the design competitive with other so-called "4+ generation" fighters.

MOST POPULAR
Still, $244 million per aircraft is a lot of money. Why does Rafale cost so much? Exchange rates almost certainly play a role. And in addition to the plane itself, there's also a need for support and maintenance equipment and munitions. Part of the problem with Rafale is that aside from Paveway laser-guided bombs, it uses mostly French weapons that are incompatible with the rest of India's stockpile. 

India is only the third international customer for Rafale. While the fighter has been on the market for decades, Rafale's first overseas sale happened just recently when Qatar bought 24 planes and Egypt followed shortly thereafter. Rafale will be a strong candidate to replace Canada's aging F/A-18 Hornet fighters when those need to retire.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...2efd&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter


----------



## Picdelamirand-oil

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> The Dassault Rafale was conceived in the early 1980s to be one multi-role fighter that could replace six different fighter and attack aircraft. The plane is almost completely French, with fuselage, avionics, engines and weapons all made in that country.


In the early 1980 the only plane that was conceived was the Rafale A which was a demonstrator whithout weapon system, unable to replace six different fighter



> Although relatively small compared to planes like the Eurofighter Typhoon and F-22 Raptor, Rafale packs a powerful punch. Twelve wing-mounted hard points can carry a combination of air-to-air missiles, air-to-ground missiles, sensors, and drop tanks.


Rafale B and C provide fourteen wing-mounted hard points and Rafale M provide thirteen wing-mounted hard points.



> Despite the fact that the Rafale is now a 30-year-old design, upgrades such as the RBE2 AA active electronic scanning array (AESA) radar, Damocles targeting pod, Meteor air-to-air missiles, and SCALP cruise missiles have kept the design competitive with other so-called "4+ generation" fighters.


By this metric F-35 is a 20-year-old design:

on 21 April 1988, the French government awarded Dassault a contract for four Rafale prototypes
The JSF development contract was signed on 16 November 1996



> Still, $244 million per aircraft is a lot of money.


It's mostly an absurd way to calculate a price



> Why does Rafale cost so much? Exchange rates almost certainly play a role. And in addition to the plane itself, there's also a need for support and maintenance equipment and munitions. Part of the problem with Rafale is that aside from Paveway laser-guided bombs, it uses mostly French weapons that are incompatible with the rest of India's stockpile.


Rafale is compatible with NATO standards which means that the integration of any NATO weapons is very easy for countries that prefer weapons that are not French.



> India is only the third international customer for Rafale. While the fighter has been on the market for decades,


The Rafale is on the market for only a decade. The export is not possible as long as the aircraft is not used in its country of origin and the true introduction of the Rafale was in 2006 in the French Air Force. The Navy introduction in 2001 was with a draft version to fill an urgent need for our aircraft carrier. This version could not be considered for export.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> In the early 1980 the only plane that was conceived was the Rafale A which was a demonstrator whithout weapon system, unable to replace six different fighter
> 
> 
> Rafale B and C provide fourteen wing-mounted hard points and Rafale M provide thirteen wing-mounted hard points.
> 
> 
> By this metric F-35 is a 20-year-old design:
> 
> on 21 April 1988, the French government awarded Dassault a contract for four Rafale prototypes
> The JSF development contract was signed on 16 November 1996
> 
> It's mostly an absurd way to calculate a price
> 
> 
> Rafale is compatible with NATO standards which means that the integration of any NATO weapons is very easy for countries that prefer weapons that are not French.
> 
> 
> The Rafale is on the market for only a decade. The export is not possible as long as the aircraft is not used in its country of origin and the true introduction of the Rafale was in 2006 in the French Air Force. The Navy introduction in 2001 was with a draft version to fill an urgent need for our aircraft carrier. This version could not be considered for export.



Sir the author of this article is followed by the Twitter handle of Rolls Royce. That just gives the reason behind this.... 

Lots of pain. And a lot of green envy too

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## The Eagle

*Rafale sale not complete: Parrikar after BJP’s ‘deal finalised’ tweet*

PTI, New Delhi
Updated: Apr 21, 2016 13:52 IST





Sources said the price for 36 Rafales, as per the UPA tender, keeping the cost escalation and dollar rate in mind, comes to a little over Rs 65,000 crore. (Dassault Rafale)
Also Read | All about Rafale deal: India-France negotiations in final stages

Defence ministry sources had earlier said the deal was at an advanced stage and both India and France had narrowed down their differences over the pricing issue.

“I can only tell you this much that while the deal is in quite an advanced stage, and we intent to close it quite soon, I still can’t say that negotiations are totally cleared until we sign the deal or at least the deal is forwarded to the Cabinet for approval,” Parrikar told reporters in New Delhi.

The deal is expected to be finalised by May end. India has been bargaining hard with France over the pricing of the 36 fighter planes, a deal that was announced first by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in April 2015.

The cost of the 36 Rafales, as per the earlier tender while keeping the cost escalation into account, comes to around Rs 65,000 crore.

Also Read | Rafale deal in ‘final stage’; France, India narrow down differences

India has been bargaining for a price that is less than 8 billion Euro (Rs 59,000 crore).

“The deal to buy 36 state-of-the-art Rafale aircraft from France at 12 billion dollar (Rs 80000 crore) was re-negotiated and finalised at 8.8 billion dollar (around Rs 59000 crore),” the BJP tweet had said.

The government “saved” public money and the deal resulted in gain of “technological knowledge” and “strengthening the air power to defend the border”, it had said.

Also Read |Pace of Rafale deal ‘not enough’: Manohar Parrikar

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## Abingdonboy

Has anyone said is closed? There is still no contract signature and what the DM is saying is clearly technically correct:



The Eagle said:


> “I can only tell you this much that while the deal is in quite an advanced stage, and we intent to close it quite soon, *I still can’t say that negotiations are totally cleared until we sign the deal or at least the deal is forwarded to the Cabinet for approval,*” Parrikar told reporters in New Delhi.


For any deal to be signed it needs to be cleared by the CCS- this is the final stage and after that the deal is signed and funds released. But this is a mere formality so if the main hurdle (ToT/Cost) is resolved then the CCS approval can come anytime. 

Just got to cross a few Ts and dot a few Is now.

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## The Eagle

Abingdonboy said:


> Has anyone said is closed? There is still no contract signature and what the DM is saying is clearly technically correct:
> 
> 
> For any deal to be signed it needs to be cleared by the CCS- this is the final stage and after that the deal is signed and funds released. But this is a mere formality so if the main hurdle (ToT/Cost) is resolved then the CCS approval can come anytime.
> 
> Just got to cross a few Ts and dot a few Is now.



I merely shared a news stating that the deal is not yet finalized though no such word CLOSED is expressed nor intended to share in same contexts. What is your point here?


----------



## Abingdonboy

The Eagle said:


> I merely shared a news stating that the deal is not yet finalized though no such word CLOSED is expressed nor intended to share in same contexts. What is your point here?


I'm providing commentry to a news story so as to give a contextualised picture. Why are you taking it so personally?


----------



## The Eagle

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm providing commentry to a news story so as to give a contextualised picture. Why are you taking it so personally?



No such TAKING IT PERSONALLY though your reply starting with a question in context of HAS ANYONE SAID IS CLOSED seems like jumping on steering seat being offended the Indian deal. However, news is just a news likewise this deal alone.


----------



## Abingdonboy

The Eagle said:


> No such TAKING IT PERSONALLY though your reply starting with a question in context of HAS ANYONE SAID IS CLOSED seems like jumping on steering seat being offended the Indian deal. However, news is just a news likewise this deal alone.


"Closed"/"complete", this is just semantics. My intention was to give a fuller picture and contextualise the report and that I have done.

Good day.


----------



## The enlightened

PARIKRAMA said:


> DAC approval happening on papers exchanged possibly on April 21 followed by visits for formal signing..
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @Vauban


April 21 is here. Lets hope we are not disappointed again.

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## Abingdonboy

The enlightened said:


> April 21 is here. Lets hope we are not disappointed again.


No DAC announced for today, @PARIKRAMA gave a rough estimate but DACs meet with irregularity and can be postponed for a few days.

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## The enlightened

Abingdonboy said:


> No DAC announced for today, @PARIKRAMA gave a rough estimate but DACs meet with irregularity and can be postponed for a few days.


That may be it. All news articles involving MoS Defence stated that it might happen today. Lets see


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## Abingdonboy

The enlightened said:


> That may be it. All news articles involving MoS Defence stated that it might happen today. Lets see


Normally you hear about DACs meeting on the day but today there hasn't been any such news AFAIK.

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## PARIKRAMA

First priority is remaining DPP chapters.. Strategic partnership will take more time..

Unless that is out Rafale MII cant happen.. 

So its a step by step process..

36 flyaway should happen today.. if not today then next DAC

But once strategic partnership part in DPP2016 is out, within 3 months Rafale MII will be approved, unless again some new points of negotiations crop up..

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> First priority is remaining DPP chapters.. Strategic partnership will take more time..
> 
> Unless that is out Rafale MII cant happen..
> 
> So its a step by step process..
> 
> 36 flyaway should happen today.. if not today then next DAC
> 
> But once strategic partnership part in DPP2016 is out, within 3 months Rafale MII will be approved, unless again some new points of negotiations crop up..


IMO, it's better to spend a little bit of extra time on the MII now and get the best (and clear) terms now instead of paying for it later (aka Scorpene/MTA/FGFA). That is exactly why the off the shelf deal for 36 is being pursued- to buy some breathing space (just a bit) and meet the "urgent" needs of the IAF now (hence why they are coming within 20 months).

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## W@rwolf

Do you really think the total lifetime cost of operating (including operating costs, maintenance and upgrades) the Rafale is lower than Su-30MKI?

I know we have already covered this topic before, but can't seem to find them.

BTW, Sajeev Jino being funny again.







https://www.flickr.com/photos/sajee...Kcf-GgNiV2-G6HziM-FJk4AL-G9rzRp-Feavhc-FeatkB

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## Abingdonboy

W@rwolf said:


> Do you really think the total lifetime cost of operating (including operating costs, maintenance and upgrades) the Rafale is lower than Su-30MKI?


Yup and by a signifcant degree.

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## AugenBlick

Abingdonboy said:


> Yup and by a signifcant degree.


I remember the figures 
It was 11000$ for Rafael
and 18000$ for SU-30MKI 
and 7000$ for M2K.(this one I am a little unsure)

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## W@rwolf

Abingdonboy said:


> Yup and by a signifcant degree.





AugenBlick said:


> I remember the figures
> It was 11000$ for Rafael
> and 18000$ for SU-30MKI
> and 7000$ for M2K.(this one I am a little unsure)



What about the cost of replacing the engines, MLUs, spares etc? Spares would be costlier for Rafales that the MKIs as the latter will be mostly made in India under the new agreement with Russia (hopefully starting 2017).

Also, what all comes under "operating costs"? Does it include regular maintenance costs, consumables, fuel, oil, training costs etc

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## Picdelamirand-oil

AugenBlick said:


> I remember the figures
> It was 11000$ for Rafael
> and 18000$ for SU-30MKI
> and 7000$ for M2K.(this one I am a little unsure)


I will try to find a document from French SENAT (a kind of French parliament) showing that total operating cost for one Rafale fly-hour is 10000 € and 8000 € for M2K. But @randomradio said me that in India it cost only $ 4000 for a M2K fly-hour.So I don't know how it will cost for the Rafale in India.

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## Abingdonboy

W@rwolf said:


> What about the cost of replacing the engines, MLUs, spares etc? Spares would be costlier for Rafales that the MKIs as the latter will be mostly made in India under the new agreement with Russia (hopefully starting 2017).
> 
> Also, what all comes under "operating costs"? Does it include regular maintenance costs, consumables, fuel, oil, training costs etc


The M88 is a more efficent engine than the AL-31 and has 30%+ longer life than the AL-31. Spares will be made in India for the Rafale too.


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> The M88 is a more efficent engine than the AL-31 and has 30%+ longer life than the AL-31. Spares will be made in India for the Rafale too.



That's not right. M88-4E is good for 8000 hours. AL-31FP is good for only 2000 hours.

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## W@rwolf

randomradio said:


> That's not right. M88-4E is good for 8000 hours. AL-31FP is good for only 2000 hours.



I thought the 88-4E engine has the same thrust as the 88-2. The report says that we will get a 10T payload capacity rather than the 9.5T. Doesn't that mean we opted for the M-88-3 engine giving 90KN thrust? That would explain the additional costs for customization that include bigger intakes and other tests that needs to be done.



Nirjara said:


> 150 Million $per Rafale seems just about right.
> 
> This split up is far more reliable that the one we have in pdf.



85 Million is the fly-away cost of the jet according to French Senat. I'm not sure how he arrived at the 150 Million figure, it could be the acquisition costs that includes the weapon packages. But did you see the amount for the base? 100 Million for 2 bases? Really?

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> That's not right. M88-4E is good for 8000 hours. AL-31FP is good for only 2000 hours.


But will the IAF get the 4E? Either way, the M88 (of whatever variant) will have a FAR longer lifespan than the AL-31 despite costing roughly the same.


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## randomradio

W@rwolf said:


> I thought the 88-4E engine has the same thrust as the 88-2.



Yes.



> The report says that we will get a 10T payload capacity rather than the 9.5T. Doesn't that mean we opted for the M-88-3 engine giving 90KN thrust?



About 8.5 tons. For a 9 tons thrust, we need to redesign the intake, that's unnecessary.



Abingdonboy said:


> But will the IAF get the 4E? Either way, the M88 (of whatever variant) will have a FAR longer lifespan than the AL-31 despite costing roughly the same.



M88 should cost twice as much as the AL-31. But it's worth it.

IAF will not get the 4E, but a newer engine.

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## Abingdonboy

@Taygibay @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil sirs, could you please explain a little about how Rafales are operated from their home bases. I know that they won't require the cumbersome BRD process like Russian origin equipment and a lot of MRO activities can be undertaken at the SQN level itself. But what exactly needs to be with each squadron (specific to the Rafale) at each base?



randomradio said:


> M88 should cost twice as much as the AL-31. But it's worth it.
> 
> IAF will not get the 4E, but a newer engine.


200% greater cost for a 300-400% longer lifespan and far greater reliability is more than justified (not to mention just how easy the M88 is to overhaul compared to the AL-31; 2 hour drop out vs 8-12 hours).


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> 200% greater cost for a 300-400% longer lifespan and far greater reliability is more than justified (not to mention just how easy the M88 is to overhaul compared to the AL-31; 2 hour drop out vs 8-12 hours).



M88 doesn't require overhaul. AL-31FP requires overhaul every 1000 hours, nozzle every 500 hours. But IAF is performing overhauls even before the stipulated 1000 hours due to problems which are being fixed only now.

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## W@rwolf

Nirjara said:


> That might be the price the French govt. pays for the jet, it is certainly not going to be the price the India govt. pays for Rafale.



You're wrong there, the French had promised to give the Rafales with prices comparable to that given to the French Airforce. According to SENAT report : Rafale C costs $78 Million and Rafale B (trainer) costs $82 Million (extrapolating the figures fro 2014). The $85 Million seems to be a acceptable figure in that case.

" - aircraft costs would by and large have been the same as for the French Air Force "
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-confirms-order-for-air-forces-rafale-deal-with-france-1262447

"France is offering India 36 Rafale fighter jets in fly-away condition at the same price which it pays to French defence major Dassault Aviation to equip its own air force,"
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...o-Own-Air-Force/2015/05/07/article2802306.ece



Nirjara said:


> If you feel 100 million $ is "too little" can you provide a list of equipments and how much will they cost ?



I'm not an expert here, but when you consider the infrastructure that has to be set up ( including hangars, weapons dump, fuel dump, maintenance equipment, training, test benches etc) $100 Million is not even close.

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## W@rwolf

Nirjara said:


> The French would provide us with Rafales for the price they have quoted in their *MMRCA proposal.* THAT is the bench mark. Not to the price they provide to their govt.



If that were the case, I would agree with you. But the deal for 36 Rafales have no relation with MMRCA competition. Its a pure *G2G agreement *and the prices have been re-negotiated. Even the version we're getting now is totally different from what was initially offered in the MMRCA competition.



Nirjara said:


> India already has Hanger, fuel dump, etc on existing bases where a large number of aircrafts are scheduled to be retired. Rafale is going to take up space on that base. Sure the base will be upgraded by new support equipments, but the infrastructure will pretty much remain the same. Any addition will be by IAF, like building hangers etc. Not by dassault.



That is true, but i'm still not convinced on the $100 Million figure.

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## Abingdonboy

Nirjara said:


> Let me help you here,
> 
> One of the USP of Rafale was that it had fully automatic monitoring system that reduced turn around time and minimized the used of ground equipments.
> 
> Dassault has also developed a single test bench capable of dealing with all electronic LRU that needs to be replaced.
> 
> Rafale is expected to be self supporting, requiring No external test benches for flight line or rear echelon maintenance.
> 
> THAT is why its has low operating cost, and low ground crew training requirements.
> 
> Rafale requires no complete airframe or engine depot level inspection throughout its service life. This was one of the many reason the IAF loved the Rafale.
> 
> But all of this put together also indicate a very low ground equipment and training cost. Hence the chart.


The Rafale really should be the backbone of the IAF, not the maintainence-intensive MKIs. 300+ MKIs are assured, the IAF needs at least 200-250 Rafales to offset this HUGE commitment.

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## randomradio

Nirjara said:


> The French would provide us with Rafales for the price they have quoted in their MMRCA proposal. THAT is the bench mark. Not to the price they provide to their govt.
> 
> One has to be extremely naive and gullible to believe otherwise.



The flyaway price of the Rafale is said to be about $85M for the IAF. It was $105M earlier.

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## Abingdonboy

W@rwolf said:


> That is true, but i'm still not convinced on the $100 Million figure.


But what do you think will cost so much? As has been stated, the IAF is not going to be setting up new bases for the Rafales nor do they require BRDs so much of the infrastructure needed to support the Rafale will exist at any fighter base (hangers, ready rooms, accomadation etc) and remember that the Rafales are going to go into SQNs that already exist. There will be a need to upgrade certain facilties especially with the on-site maintainence equipment the Rafales offers but I don't see where the costs will balloon that much. Maybe $50 million per base is on the low side, but it shouldn't be more than $75 million.

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> But what do you think will cost so much? As has been stated, the IAF is not going to be setting up new bases for the Rafales nor do they require BRDs so much of the infrastructure needed to support the Rafale will exist at any fighter base (hangers, ready rooms, accomadation etc) and remember that the Rafales are going to go into SQNs that already exist. There will be a need to upgrade certain facilties especially with the on-site maintainence equipment the Rafales offers but I don't see where the costs will balloon that much. Maybe $50 million per base is on the low side, but it shouldn't be more than $75 million.



Base costs are more than a billion.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> Base costs are more than a billion.


How?? What do you get for a billion USD?


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## Taygibay

Abingdonboy said:


> But what exactly needs to be with each squadron (specific to the Rafale) at each base?



Nirjara gave a decent answer on the continuous evaluation process.
I'll add that a bench exists, the one for dry testing the M-88 after a fix.

From strict to loose :

On deployment, landing gear and wheels, engines and ejection seat are maintained in-house.
Plus weaponry of course! The rest or a major bug with one of those equates to exchange parts.

At a base, more engine care and lots more parts plus a reserve of parts,
including ones from immobilized ACs. Since all Rafales are the same,
you can switch and swap and plug and play all systems say radar or OSF.
Except for Bs versus Cs, French squadrons have a local engineering and
maintenance department that does all planes. When morning comes, pick
any that is available and use it.

On a bigger base, this way of maintenance is actually shared by many sqdns.
Then, you had a shipping/sales rep. dept that gets the spares in and out.
The OSF and engine makers can send parts, modules and systems directly.
Dassault is only concerned with structural work where you need to touch the
whole cell which frees its plant for production and R&D.

So say a FADEC goes boink*** : Take it off, send it to shipping, replace it with
any from your pool, test and replace the engine. The maker picks it up, choo-
ses the way to fix it and returns it to base.

And on top of that structure, the AdlA has a SIAé, Aeronautic Industrial Ser-
vice that can do all the work between that of the bases and that of the makers.
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/air/activites/maintenance-aeronautique/maintenance-aeronautique

It works pretty darn well! Tay.

*** ( Well, it does go boink exactly, the onboard monitoring signals wear and if it goes over a limit
or starts sending in-flight reports, you remove it. )

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## W@rwolf

Abingdonboy said:


> But what do you think will cost so much? As has been stated, the IAF is not going to be setting up new bases for the Rafales nor do they require BRDs so much of the infrastructure needed to support the Rafale will exist at any fighter base (hangers, ready rooms, accomadation etc) and remember that the Rafales are going to go into SQNs that already exist. There will be a need to upgrade certain facilties especially with the on-site maintainence equipment the Rafales offers but I don't see where the costs will balloon that much. Maybe $50 million per base is on the low side, but it shouldn't be more than $75 million.




Unlike the Russian jets, the Rafales need much more facilities for maintaining them properly. Hence the two bases will have to be adequately upgraded for these western jets. Yes, the basic infrastructure exists including weapons and spare depots. But they are designed for Russian inventory and need to be sufficiently modified for these. The Rafale relies on more of a software-centric approach than a physical one with regards to its health monitoring. The IAF technicians have to be extensively trained in its management as well as operating the equipment. You have also not mentioned the installation of simulators which will require a large chunk of money too. My approximation would be upwards of $500 Million.

Maybe the veterans here can give us an idea?


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## Picdelamirand-oil

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> I will try to find a document from French SENAT (a kind of French parliament) showing that total operating cost for one Rafale fly-hour is 10000 € and 8000 € for M2K. But @randomradio said me that in India it cost only $ 4000 for a M2K fly-hour.So I don't know how it will cost for the Rafale in India.


Maintenance/MRO cost of the Rafale:

life expectancy : 7500 h (update to 9000h as objective )

Rafale B/C in 2012: 

Total MRO cost: 182,60 millions
Aircraft : 77 
Annual cost per aircraft : 2,371 millions
Cost per flight hour (250 hours): 9484
Assemblee nationale | Question ecrite N° 22636 de M. Francois Cornut-Gentille (UMP - Haute-Marne)
http://questions.assemblee-nationale.fr/q14/14-22636QE.htm
Mirage 2000 in 2012:

Total cost : 294,90 millions
Aircraft : 136 
Annual cost per aircraft: 2,168 millions
Cost per flight hour (250 hours) : 8672 
http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/14/budget/plf2013/b0251-tIII-a10.asp

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## Picdelamirand-oil

W@rwolf said:


> Unlike the Russian jets, the Rafales need much more facilities for maintaining them properly.


 I disagree

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## WhyCry

Abingdonboy said:


> @Taygibay @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil sirs, could you please explain a little about how Rafales are operated from their home bases. I know that they won't require the cumbersome BRD process like Russian origin equipment and a lot of MRO activities can be undertaken at the SQN level itself. But what exactly needs to be with each squadron (specific to the Rafale) at each base?
> 
> 
> 200% greater cost for a 300-400% longer lifespan and far greater reliability is more than justified (not to mention just how easy the M88 is to overhaul compared to the AL-31; 2 hour drop out vs 8-12 hours).



Yes Since the M88 is a modular engine the downtime will be very less which inturn will increase the availibility of the platform. But the cost is more since the whole module will be changed of issues with part or the lifecycle of it.


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## Abingdonboy

W@rwolf said:


> Unlike the Russian jets, the Rafales need much more facilities for maintaining them properly. Hence the two bases will have to be adequately upgraded for these western jets. Yes, the basic infrastructure exists including weapons and spare depots. But they are designed for Russian inventory and need to be sufficiently modified for these. The Rafale relies on more of a software-centric approach than a physical one with regards to its health monitoring. The IAF technicians have to be extensively trained in its management as well as operating the equipment. You have also not mentioned the installation of simulators which will require a large chunk of money too. My approximation would be upwards of $500 Million.
> 
> Maybe the veterans here can give us an idea?


Simulators (for both aircrew and ground crew) will of course be a considerable expense but not in the 100s of millions, the 10s of millions only. I'm sure there is a lot I am failing to consider but I don't know how it can cost $500 million to upgrade a base to house a Rafale when much of the physical infrastructure will remain the same. If someone could break it down I would appreciate it, if that much has to be spent then I won't begrudge it- the IAF needs to do this right, there no point in cutting corners.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-126#post-8156273
http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public/PubFullText/RTO/TR/RTO-TR-AVT-144/$$TR-AVT-144-ALL.pdf
And look page 3-11 paragraph 3.2.4.2

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## W@rwolf

Masterhunter said:


> 2. Cost of base infrastructure creation... Dassult asking for 1.4 billion dollar for one base for rafale and already two bases are created in present order. In your view point of second MRCA of 126 fighters, we need creation of infrastructure on minimum 03 bases...that means an investment of 4.2 billion dollars.



Could you share with us where Dassault has asked us for $1.4 Billion for creation of base infrastructure?

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> Simulators (for both aircrew and ground crew) will of course be a considerable expense but not in the 100s of millions, the 10s of millions only. I'm sure there is a lot I am failing to consider but I don't know how it can cost $500 million to upgrade a base to house a Rafale when much of the physical infrastructure will remain the same. If someone could break it down I would appreciate it, if that much has to be spent then I won't begrudge it- the IAF needs to do this right, there no point in cutting corners.


http://www.sogitec.com/en/simulation_centres.htm

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## W@rwolf

PARIKRAMA said:


> Cost of infrastructure in terms of materials and manhours now being cited to reduce per base cost from earlier Euro 1.2 Bn per base



Could you share the source that says < Euro 1.2 Billion for creation of base infrastructure?

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> After the first investisment on ground for Rafale it would be cheaper to buy more Rafale than to buy F-18, I see no advantage in F-18 the Rafale LCC is lower, the Rafale performance is better.



The F/A-18 has no chance. I've maintained my position that it will be more expensive than Rafale even in terms of flyaway cost, not just LCC. Imagine how much SH will cost if they add avionics like FSO, DDM-NG, SATCOM, interferometers etc, even without sensor fusion. And some of those technologies are impossible for SH to achieve. But F-16 and Gripen have a chance when it comes to costs. Gripen came at $160M with 100% offsets, industrial production and ToT in Brazil. F-16 could be equally cheap even if it is inferior to Gripen.

Parrikar is throwing a bone to Boeing, but the fact is Parrikar has always talked about a single engine aircraft.

April 2015
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...o-replace-mig-21-parrikar-115041500007_1.html


> "Rafale is not a replacement for MiG-21. LCA Tejas is a replacement for MiG-21. *Or, if we build some other fighter under 'Make in India', that is also possible. If we build another single engine [fighter] in India, which is possible,* that could be a replacement for the MiG-21", said Parrikar.



Cost is the driving factor behind this second MMRCA. It has to be Gripen or F-16, nothing else. Or there is a small chance Russia can use its lower exchange rate to sell the Mig-35. The Americans are planning to tighten rates again, and the recent emergency oil production freeze meeting failed, so ruble will depreciate again.



W@rwolf said:


> Could you share with us where Dassault has asked us for $1.4 Billion for creation of base infrastructure?
> 
> Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]



Picdel is a source. He was among the top 5 people in the French defence industry. He's supervised French nukes, supervised a nuclear fusion program, ASMP, been a part of Dassault, Matra etc. He was there when they were working out Typhoon's and Rafale's specs, he was part of both programs.

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## Taygibay

W@rwolf said:


> The IAF technicians have to be extensively trained in its management as well as operating the equipment. You have also not mentioned the installation of simulators which will require a large chunk of money too. My approximation would be upwards of $500 Million.
> 
> Maybe the veterans here can give us an idea?



It depends on cost and present infrastructures of course.
If the hangarettes are sized for Rafales, one less cost! If not ...
It also depends on what kind of maintenance is planned.
A better way than IAF is used to, cheap. Same as home set-up?
There's always Mastercard! ETC.

I wouldn't be shocked at half a million bucks.



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> I disagree



Me too!
One example amongst many : http://www.spherea.com
http://www.spherea.com/en/products/...pose-automatic-test-equipment-test-bench.html

*RAFALE*
The French Air Force and Navy have equipped themselves with SESAR 3000 GPATE MERMOZ test stations for the maintenance of the RAFALE's main on-board equipment (radar, mission computers, radio communication equipment, electronic warfare equipment, optronic systems and weapons systems).
Fixed configurations have been installed in the maintenance workshops at Air Force and Navy bases.
SESAR GPATE test benches have also been deployed on the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle.

*Hawkeye*
Support for the French Navy's Hawkeye aircraft is provided by SESAR GPATE test benches installed either at the Air Force or Naval bases, or on the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle.

*Mirage 2000*
Over 30 test benches have been delivered to 5 countries as part of the Mirage 2000 program.
5 of these testers are use to maintain the ANTILOPE radar.

*Leclerc tank*
33 test benches deployed either in shelters transportable by truck, or in the French Army's maintenance workshops provide the maintenance for more than 50 items of electronic and optronic equipment for the Leclerc tank.

*VABOBS*
Four SESAR GPATE test stations are dedicated to testing the optronic equipment for VABOBS, mainly the laser rangefinder and the sight systems.

*NH90*
Under the NH90 European program, SPHEREA has supplied a generic tester to maintain the avionics for the NH90 helicopter.
This test bench has been developed from a SESAR GPATE core system and is used by the six nations involved in the NH90 program.

*Tiger*
An optronics test station has been developed for the German Bundeswehr. This tester is used to maintain the OSIRIS sight head on the German Tiger.

In the French Army, test stations are used to maintain the Tiger's electronic equipment: control computer, radio communication equipment, multifunction display, radar, electronic warfare equipment.

And great evening all, Tay.

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## W@rwolf

randomradio said:


> Picdel is a source. He was among the top 5 people in the French defence industry. He's supervised French nukes, supervised a nuclear fusion program, ASMP, been a part of Dassault, Matra etc. He was there when they were working out Typhoon's and Rafale's specs, he was part of both programs.



That's great. @Picdelamirand-oil Maybe you can shed some light on the cost of setting up bases for Rafales in India?
According to Sajeev Jino, it takes only $100 Million for 2 bases. i argue that it could be upwards of $500 Million for one base itself. What do you think will be a realistic figure? Considering basic infrastructure already exists at both airbases.



Taygibay said:


> It depends on cost and present infrastructures of course.
> If the hangarettes are sized for Rafales, one less cost! If not ...
> It also depends on what kind of maintenance is planned.
> A better way than IAF is used to, cheap. Same as home set-up?
> There's always Mastercard! ETC.
> 
> I wouldn't be shocked at half a million bucks.



Me too. I mean $50 Million for 1 base is just too low. @Nirjara


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## #hydra#

Nirjara said:


> Even if MMRCA is scrapped, why would Dassault revise a price they have proposed in a competitive bidding ? Why would they undermine their price negotiations with other countries ?
> 
> Especially when they have to provide 50% offset ?
> 
> We would have renegotiated the contract, but not the price. That would always remain the same. As I said, it would be Naive to believe otherwise. Wishful thinking. Mental masturbation. call it what you want.
> 
> This also explains why only 36 is being negotiated.
> 
> 
> 
> *I personally would have F-22 to be the backbone of the IAF. 500 of them would do quite nice.*
> 
> If only wishes were horses.
> 
> 
> 
> "said to" by who ? Same kind of sources who have "said to" put the price at 150 million $ ?
> 
> So you pick what suits your Fantasy ?
> 
> 
> 
> The ONLY place where India could have negotiated to lower the price would be the base set up. I am going to bet that is the strategy we have adopted.
> 
> Base upgrade would be kept at a minimum required. Additional upgrades would come in time and will not be part of deal with Dassault. The contracts would go to Indian companies.


Why dont you add few b2s nd few growlers?


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## Sergi

Rafale fanboys may disappoint once again. Dassault is still stuburn on cost issue. Deal likely to fail if Dassult don't fall in line , which seems very unlikely
( NO SOURCE ; take it or leave it )


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## randomradio

Nirjara said:


> "said to" by who ? Same kind of sources who have "said to" put the price at 150 million $ ?



Parrikar.

Cost of Rafale during MMRCA was Euro 105M, he said he's aiming to bring the price down to 75M Euros. And it's been more or less done.


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## BON PLAN

W@rwolf said:


> I thought the 88-4E engine has the same thrust as the 88-2. The report says that we will get a 10T payload capacity rather than the 9.5T. Doesn't that mean we opted for the M-88-3 engine giving 90KN thrust? That would explain the additional costs for customization that include bigger intakes and other tests that needs to be done.


10T : it's a generic term. 9.5T or 10T, it's quite same thing.

a derivative of this config, with 2xSCALP instead of 6 Hammer.





3x2000L tanks = +/-6000 Kg with empty weight of pylon and tank.
2 x SCALP = 2 x (200kg pylon ? + 1300kg missile) = 3000 kg
4 MICA = 4 x 110+ kg
2 METEOR = 2 x 165kg

YEAH : nearly 10 T

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## randomradio

Nirjara said:


> Link ?



http://sputniknews.com/military/20160106/1032761180/india-france-rafale-fighter-jet-deal.html
Still trying to squeeze the best out of the deal, the Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar said he hoped that India would negotiate up to 25 percent discount for the jets, which would be 75 million euro ($82 million) instead of 105 million euros for each aircraft.

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## BON PLAN

Taygibay said:


> Nirjara gave a decent answer on the continuous evaluation process.
> I'll add that a bench exists, the one for dry testing the M-88 after a fix.
> 
> From strict to loose :
> 
> On deployment, landing gear and wheels, engines and ejection seat are maintained in-house.
> Plus weaponry of course! The rest or a major bug with one of those equates to exchange parts.
> 
> At a base, more engine care and lots more parts plus a reserve of parts,
> including ones from immobilized ACs. Since all Rafales are the same,
> you can switch and swap and plug and play all systems say radar or OSF.
> Except for Bs versus Cs, French squadrons have a local engineering and
> maintenance department that does all planes. When morning comes, pick
> any that is available and use it.
> 
> On a bigger base, this way of maintenance is actually shared by many sqdns.
> Then, you had a shipping/sales rep. dept that gets the spares in and out.
> The OSF and engine makers can send parts, modules and systems directly.
> Dassault is only concerned with structural work where you need to touch the
> whole cell which frees its plant for production and R&D.
> 
> So say a FADEC goes boink*** : Take it off, send it to shipping, replace it with
> any from your pool, test and replace the engine. The maker picks it up, choo-
> ses the way to fix it and returns it to base.
> 
> And on top of that structure, the AdlA has a SIAé, Aeronautic Industrial Ser-
> vice that can do all the work between that of the bases and that of the makers.
> http://www.defense.gouv.fr/air/activites/maintenance-aeronautique/maintenance-aeronautique
> 
> It works pretty darn well! Tay.
> 
> *** ( Well, it does go boink exactly, the onboard monitoring signals wear and if it goes over a limit
> or starts sending in-flight reports, you remove it. )


On the french nuclear carrier, a test bench for the ATAR engine of Super Etendard was installed. And only for that engine. No need for M88.
Super Etendard is now retired. The test bench will be scratched during the next overhaul of the carrier, next year.



Dev Destroyer said:


> Yes Since the M88 is a modular engine the downtime will be very less which inturn will increase the availibility of the platform. But the cost is more since the whole module will be changed of issues with part or the lifecycle of it.


A replaced module will be overhaul, and not scratch, so it cost far less than a new one..



Sergi said:


> Rafale fanboys may disappoint once again. Dassault is still stuburn on cost issue. Deal likely to fail if Dassult don't fall in line , which seems very unlikely
> ( NO SOURCE ; take it or leave it )


WE LEAVE IT !

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## Stephen Cohen

Sergi said:


> Rafale fanboys may disappoint once again. Dassault is still stuburn on cost issue. Deal likely to fail if Dassult don't fall in line , which seems very unlikely
> ( NO SOURCE ; take it or leave it )



Party pooper

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## W@rwolf

BON PLAN said:


> 10T : it's a generic term. 9.5T or 10T, it's quite same thing.
> 
> a derivative of this config, with 2xSCALP instead of 6 Hammer.
> View attachment 301481
> 
> 3x2000L tanks = +/-6000 Kg with empy weight of pylon and tank.
> 2 x SCALP = 2 x (200kg pylon ? + 1300kg missile) = 3000 kg
> 4 MICA = 4 x 110+ kg
> 2 METEOR = 2 x 165kg
> 
> YEAH : nearly 10 T



Yes, the 10T is a rounded up figure i guess. But even then the report suggests that an increase in payload is expected (otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned anything about the payload)
What are the chances of SNECMA agreeing to integrate the new engine for the Indian jets? AFAIK the M-88-2E4 (-4E) was derived from the M-88-3 (ECO) proposal (retaining only the improvement in materials) and not the upgrades to the LP compressor and other modifications. The proposal was shelved since AdlA was not interested, not because it was unfeasible.



Nirjara said:


> Even if MMRCA is scrapped, why would Dassault revise a price they have proposed in a competitive bidding ? Why would they undermine their price negotiations with other countries ?
> 
> Especially when they have to provide 50% offset ?
> 
> We would have renegotiated the contract, but not the price. That would always remain the same. As I said, it would be Naive to believe otherwise. Wishful thinking. Mental masturbation. call it what you want.
> 
> This also explains why only 36 is being negotiated.



I hope you have seen the link shared by @randomradio. As, i said earlier, the negotiations were started from square one. (even the specification was updated) The 50% offset does not affect the fly-away cost. The offset and customization cost comes to around $2 Billion.
As for the low number of 36, it's just the first tranche. My sources tell me that the negotiations for the rest 90 are going in parallel to the one for 36. Another negotiation for Rafale-Ms have also been started. As of now the total number of Rafales under negotiations stand close to 200 in 4 tranches.
Do you really think the Govt. is foolish enough to go for another aircraft type after paying for setting up the infrastructure for Rafale?



Nirjara said:


> The ONLY place where India could have negotiated to lower the price would be the base set up. I am going to bet that is the strategy we have adopted.
> 
> Base upgrade would be kept at a minimum required. Additional upgrades would come in time and will not be part of deal with Dassault. The contracts would go to Indian companies.



Not quite, Indians lowered the price of the overall deal by reducing the price of the fly-away cost of each jet, by reducing the maintenance contract from 15 to 10 years, and also re-negotiating the price for customization and offset.

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## BON PLAN

W@rwolf said:


> Yes, the 10T is a rounded up figure i guess. But even then the report suggests that an increase in payload is expected (otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned anything about the payload)
> What are the chances of SNECMA agreeing to integrate the new engine for the Indian jets? AFAIK the M-88-2E4 (-4E) was derived from the M-88-3 (ECO) proposal (retaining only the improvement in materials) and not the upgrades to the LP compressor and other modifications. The proposal was shelved since AdlA was not interested, not because it was unfeasible.


Qatar is intended to receive its Rafale with two 8.3 tons M88. Maybe the same for India ?


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## WhyCry

randomradio said:


> M88 doesn't require overhaul. AL-31FP requires overhaul every 1000 hours, nozzle every 500 hours. But IAF is performing overhauls even before the stipulated 1000 hours due to problems which are being fixed only now.



This is not a true statement. AL31 are definitely maintenance hog but not to this extreme. They are rated for 3000 hours life time and MTBO at 1000. but IAF is known to do it earlier.


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## Taygibay

Nirjara said:


> ... future purchases of Rafale will not have any offset amount attached to it, since we appear to be paying for offset in advance. That is impossible.



Unless it was planned before hand, all along and the likes?
If you know how much you can cram in the first order, it makes
the MII ones that much better.

I'm ready to believe that GoI took that approach.
Why don't you think it can? 

Good day to you, Tay.

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## W@rwolf

Nirjara said:


> Offset cost cannot be separate from the cost of the aircraft since it is directly proportional to the number of aircraft purchased. (percentage).



You misunderstood me. What I meant was that the offset does not affect the fly-away cost but rather the fly-away affects the offsets. So the fly-away cost has to be fixed first before calculating the latter. It was in response to your argument that the fly-away cost was not re-negotiated.



Nirjara said:


> Finally the customization charges was paid for by Qatar. Only the new helmet integration will be by India.



Any link to show that Qatar paid for customization (for those demanded by Indian?) Also you failed to account the integration of Astra and Brahmos (and others possibly)



Nirjara said:


> Link ?



i can't find the link, but India was negotiating for a maintenance contract for 15 years at the price of 10 years. Eventually India agreed for 10 years.



Nirjara said:


> This is hardly a roadmap for more Rafale.



In 1996 India signed a $1.8 billion deal for purchase of up to 50 Su-30 jets. Did you see a roadmap then?

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## Abingdonboy

spartan117 said:


> Have anyone heard that the earlier news was just a speculation. The deal is not final has been quoted by Def. Minister Shri Mohan Parrikar . Deeply Dissapointed


There is nothing to be dissapointed about, his exact quotes were the deal is very close and will be signed "soon", with the main issue (cost/offset) out of the way the rest is a formality. As he is right to say, the deal is not final until it goes to the CCS for clearance.

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## Hephaestus

Abingdonboy said:


> There is nothing to be dissapointed about, his exact quotes were the deal is very close and will be signed "soon", with the main issue (cost/offset) out of the way the rest is a formality. As he is right to say, the deal is not final until it goes to the CCS for clearance.


The more time it takes. The more i'm convinced Rafale & Rafale-M will fly in Indian colors.


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## Sergi

Stephen Cohen said:


> Party pooper


Ya right. Just to add one thing "m not armchair General ". 
Bye.


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## migflug



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## C130

Dev Destroyer said:


> This is not a true statement. AL31 are definitely maintenance hog but not to this extreme. They are rated for 3000 hours life time and MTBO at 1000. but IAF is known to do it earlier.




http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/47794/su_30mki-engine-certified-(oct.-27).html


his statements are correct according to this source, albeit this was posted way back in 2004 

compared to the F-100-229 EWP the AL-31FP is a pain in the butt, and it doesn't help that India flies way more hours in it's birds than most other countries.

and the low serviceability of Su-30MKI is hurting the India Air Force.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...agency-punches-holes-russian-sukhoi/77688164/


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## randomradio

Dev Destroyer said:


> This is not a true statement. AL31 are definitely maintenance hog but not to this extreme. They are rated for 3000 hours life time and MTBO at 1000. but IAF is known to do it earlier.



It is a true statement. The basic AL-31F has a life of 1500 hours. The AL-31FP has a life of 2000 hours. The 117S has a life of 4000 hours.


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## zebra7

randomradio said:


> It is a true statement. The basic AL-31F has a life of 1500 hours. The AL-31FP has a life of 2000 hours. The 117S has a life of 4000 hours.



OK but this power this beast.

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## Taygibay

zebra7 said:


> OK but this power this beast.



True that it is a beast but remember, with its tiny size and engines,
the Rafale carries more payload.

It's not all about having power, you have to use it to good avail?

Just sayin' Tay.

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## Abingdonboy

Hephaestus said:


> The more time it takes. The more i'm convinced Rafale & Rafale-M will fly in Indian colors.


It's a certainty at this point IMHO.



zebra7 said:


> OK but this power this beast.



That's true but when it averages 25-35% of the life span of the M88 the LCC go through the roof and this is something any airforce with fleets of this size need to be VERY mindful of.

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## zebra7

Abingdonboy said:


> That's true but when it averages 25-35% of the life span of the M88 the LCC go through the roof and this is something any airforce with fleets of this size need to be VERY mindful of.



Do we have the cost of AL-31 and M88 engine.


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## Abingdonboy

zebra7 said:


> Do we have the cost of AL-31 and M88 engine.


Not sure about the M88 (I'm sure @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil or @Vauban can help) but the AL-31 costs around $3.5-4 million USD each but likely would cost a tiny bit more these days. The TBO of 1000h (in the IAF even less) is complete joke though as is the rather pitiful life span.


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## zebra7

Abingdonboy said:


> Not sure about the M88 (I'm sure @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil or @Vauban can help) but the AL-31 costs around $3.5-4 million USD each but likely would cost a tiny bit more these days. The TBO of 1000h (in the IAF even less) is complete joke though as is the rather pitiful life span.



May be IAF could consider better engine AL-41 with Super Sukhoi upgrade.


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## Abingdonboy

zebra7 said:


> May be IAF could consider better engine AL-41 with Super Sukhoi upgrade.


That would be highly desirable but let's wait and see, the Super Sukhoi upgrade is taking far too long to materialise.

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## Taygibay

4.5 M€ +-

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> Not sure about the M88 (I'm sure @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil or @Vauban can help) but the AL-31 costs around $3.5-4 million USD each but likely would cost a tiny bit more these days. The TBO of 1000h (in the IAF even less) is complete joke though as is the rather pitiful life span.



India signed a contract for 900 odd engines in 2012 for about $5B.


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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> India signed a contract for 900 odd engines in 2012 for about $5B.


Are you sure about the $5BN figure? I know India had gone in for a large AL-31 order not long ago but that would equate to >$5MN PER AL-31.


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> Are you sure about the $5BN figure? I know India had gone in for a large AL-31 order not long ago but that would equate to >$5MN PER AL-31.



Let me check, it may be a bit smaller.



Abingdonboy said:


> Are you sure about the $5BN figure? I know India had gone in for a large AL-31 order not long ago but that would equate to >$5MN PER AL-31.



http://survincity.com/2012/06/megakontrakt-with-india-on-the-engines-al-31fp/

$5B for 970 engines. 50 supplied by UMPO, and the rest to be manufactured in phases.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

*The French state will buy 59 Rafales to Dassault Aviation*
By LEXPRESS.fr, published 22/09/2004 at 19:26

*The $ 3.1 billion, this is the largest order placed by the French state, only Rafale client to date since the program began in 1988.*

Dassault Aviation finally sees the expected profile control for nearly a year, the 59 Rafale combat aircraft, with the announcement Wednesday by Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie that the negotiation was "completed". The order will be formalized by the end of 2004. The contract of over 3 billion euros which also concerns the engine and equipment manufacturer Snecma and defense electronics group Thales, must be notified by industrial the General Delegation for Armaments (DGA). The share of Dassault Aviation should be 1.5 billion euros, that of Snecma 600 million and 500 million of Thales; the rest having to be MBDA for missiles and Sagem for electronic components.

This order is the largest placed by the French state, one client to date Rafale since the program began in 1988. Two first installments have already been passed, with 13 aircraft in 1997 and 48 in 1999. This third slice provides 46 air Rafale to the air Force and 13 for Naval Aviation Rafale. It will thus bring 120 copies to the number of devices actually ordered a total of 294 under the 2003-2008 military planning law.

https://translate.google.fr/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http://lexpansion.lexpress.fr/entreprises/l-etat-va-commander-59-rafales-a-dassault-aviation_1428407.html

This is a 2004 article but it is interesting because there is the SNECMA Share.
One engine seems to be (600/3100)/2 of the price of a Rafale, that is to say 9.677%
With a Rafale fly away cost of 75 M$ and a Rafale price of 80 M$ the price of one M88 is 7.75 M$


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## Taygibay

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> This is a 2004 article but it is interesting because there is the SNECMA Share.
> One engine seems to be (600/3100)/2 of the price of a Rafale, that is to say 9.677%



Nope, I'm still right, sorry!
The Safran share of work on the Rafale includes the landing gears, hydraulic generation, electrical
wiring & 50% of the ejection seat value. OH! And the Rubis APU.
That's excluding SAGEM products save precisely the numeric calculators the M-88 FADEC.
http://www.safran-group.com/fr/media/20150504_safran-bord-du-rafale
The M-88 is a subset of the Safran workshare on the Raffy, not all of it.

It's still 9B€ per plane first mount for a pair, mind you!
And to think that I'm still moody because I broke a 250$ wheel on my secondary bike last week-end!  Phew!

Bonjour chez vous, Tay.

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## #hydra#

Taygibay said:


> True that it is a beast but remember, with its tiny size and engines,
> the Rafale carries more payload.
> 
> It's not all about having power, you have to use it to good avail?
> 
> Just sayin' Tay.
> View attachment 301632​


Range?


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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> $5B for 970 engines. 50 supplied by UMPO, and the rest to be manufactured in phases.





Picdelamirand-oil said:


> With a Rafale fly away cost of 75 M$ and a Rafale price of 80 M$ the price of one M88 is 7.75 M$



So the M88 costs 150% more than the AL-31 but offers something like a 300% greater lifespan and that too requiiring at least 3 overhauls during its life (compared to 0 for the M88) and that is a pain to drop in and out (10-12 hours for the AL-31 vs 1-2 for the M88). The Rafale and MKI comparisons are night and day in some areas.

And they say the Rafale is overpriced, as the saying goes you pay peanuts and you get monkeys....

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> (10-12 hours for the AL-31 vs 1-2 for the M88).



30 minutes for one engine on Rafale. 1 hour in total.

In case some part of M88 malfunctions, the module that has malfunctioned can be replaced without removing the engine. The AL-31 has to be removed regardless of the reason for malfunction.



> The Rafale and MKI comparisons are night and day in some areas.



The MKI has no advantage in almost anything today. The MKI is not plumbed for drop tanks, so the Rafale still outranges it until drop tanks come in. There is a slight advantage is weapons payload, but that depends on how much range the MKI is willing to sacrifice.

Super Sukhoi may change many things but we have to wait for the specs, that will take years to be released, probably never. We still do not know Mig-29's upgrade specs.

MKI's only real advantage is a more diverse weapons inventory. It is integrated with the Brahmos-A, K-100 and KH-31, all three are unique weapons with no equivalents in the West. Brahmos-M can solve that problem for Rafale, but we cannot yet be sure about the other two weapons.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> 30 minutes for one engine on Rafale. 1 hour in total.
> 
> In case some part of M88 malfunctions, the module that has malfunctioned can be replaced without removing the engine. The AL-31 has to be removed regardless of the reason for malfunction.
> 
> 
> 
> The MKI has no advantage in almost anything today. The MKI is not plumbed for drop tanks, so the Rafale still outranges it until drop tanks come in. There is a slight advantage is weapons payload, but that depends on how much range the MKI is willing to sacrifice.
> 
> Super Sukhoi may change many things but we have to wait for the specs, that will take years to be released, probably never. We still do not know Mig-29's upgrade specs.
> 
> MKI's only real advantage is a more diverse weapons inventory. It is integrated with the Brahmos-A, K-100 and KH-31, all three are unique weapons with no equivalents in the West. Brahmos-M can solve that problem for Rafale, but we cannot yet be sure about the other two weapons.


It's certainly not a bad thing that the IAF has the Rafale to benchmark their MKIs against.

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> And they say the Rafale is overpriced, as the saying goes you pay peanuts and you get monkeys....



That's not the right way to look at it. The MKI is 70s technology that was further developed in the 80s and 90s. The MKI was configured in 1995, Rafale's latest configuration will be available from 2018 onwards. Two decades of work has gone into the Rafale since then. The MKI was no slouch. The Su-35 improves on the MKI by a pretty large margin, probably makes it competitive with the Rafale in many aspects and beats it outright in many others. The Super Sukhoi upgrade may come in with enough upgrades to improve on capabilities the Rafale lacks today and may continue to lag behind in even in the future.



Abingdonboy said:


> It's certainly not a bad thing that the IAF has the Rafale to benchmark their MKIs against.



I'm more interested in knowing how well the PAK FA will benchmark against a post-2021 Rafale. IAF will ask for the best of both to be introduced in the AMCA.

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## dadeechi

randomradio said:


> That's not the right way to look at it. The MKI is 70s technology that was further developed in the 80s and 90s. The MKI was configured in 1995, Rafale's latest configuration will be available from 2018 onwards. Two decades of work has gone into the Rafale since then. The MKI was no slouch. The Su-35 improves on the MKI by a pretty large margin, probably makes it competitive with the Rafale in many aspects and beats it outright in many others. The Super Sukhoi upgrade may come in with enough upgrades to improve on capabilities the Rafale lacks today and may continue to lag behind in even in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm more interested in knowing how well the PAK FA will benchmark against a post-2021 Rafale. IAF will ask for the best of both to be introduced in the AMCA.



Experience from RAFALEs would be used by IAF to implement upgrades to MKI as part of Super Sukhoi program.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> That's not the right way to look at it. The MKI is 70s technology that was further developed in the 80s and 90s. The MKI was configured in 1995, Rafale's latest configuration will be available from 2018 onwards. Two decades of work has gone into the Rafale since then. The MKI was no slouch. The Su-35 improves on the MKI by a pretty large margin, probably makes it competitive with the Rafale in many aspects and beats it outright in many others. The Super Sukhoi upgrade may come in with enough upgrades to improve on capabilities the Rafale lacks today and may continue to lag behind in even in the future.


I agree with all of the above but it doesn't detract from what I have said, at no point in time have those proposing more MKIs instead of the Rafale brought in the Super Sukhoi that exists purely as a paper plane today. As you have said, the Rafale has been upgraded over time, the MKI has had only marginal upgrades in the past 20 years and thus it is comparing apples and oranges where the Rafale vs MKI is concerned. Furthermore, the MKI reflects its history ie being rather outdated (not in outright specs but in areas such as usability and maintainability), whilst the rest of its contempories have full onboard diagnostic systems the MKI lags behind woefully and you have demonstrated this with the engine change/drop in/out example.



dadeechi said:


> Experience from RAFALEs would be used by IAF to implement upgrades to MKI as part of Super Sukhoi program.


For sure. AASMs are already being proposed for the Super Sukhoi if some other elements from the Rafale are brought in the MKI is going to be areal beast going into the future.

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## Stephen Cohen

dadeechi said:


> Experience from RAFALEs would be used by IAF to implement upgrades to MKI as part of Super Sukhoi program.



Your information on F 16 in IAF is real or just your guess ;hunch or fantasy


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## dadeechi

Stephen Cohen said:


> Your information on F 16 in IAF is real or just your guess ;hunch or fantasy



Why are you asking this question on the RAFALE thread? I am no opponent of RAFALEs..

Surely, RAFALE would be the best procurement IAF made till date.

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## PARIKRAMA

3 points

Rs 58,600 crs that's the closest rounded up figure of the deal
French team probable visit in 3rd or 4th week of May 
File moved to Cabinet committee for approval.
Few more

DCNS will be given a relaxation for FDI route investment for bringing in AIP tech.. Not sure what happened to DRDO AIP ones..

Blackshark torpedo deal file dust has been cleaned and is getting ready.. Indications of Italy and marine issue solved evolving slowly by some mutual agreement. Scorpene first kalavari induction coming soon so Blackshark deal getting looked at priority.

Strategic partnership part of DPP 2016 is almost firmed up.. Will be released soon for MII part of things..

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## #hydra#

Abingdonboy said:


> I agree with all of the above but it doesn't detract from what I have said, at no point in time have those proposing more MKIs instead of the Rafale brought in the Super Sukhoi that exists purely as a paper plane today. As you have said, the Rafale has been upgraded over time, the MKI has had only marginal upgrades in the past 20 years and thus it is comparing apples and oranges where the Rafale vs MKI is concerned. Furthermore, the MKI reflects its history ie being rather outdated (not in outright specs but in areas such as usability and maintainability), whilst the rest of its contempories have full onboard diagnostic systems the MKI lags behind woefully and you have demonstrated this with the engine change/drop in/out example.
> 
> 
> For sure. AASMs are already being proposed for the Super Sukhoi if some other elements from the Rafale are brought in the MKI is going to be areal beast going into the future.


All of a sudden mki become obsolete for some PDF members,thank god iaf is not thinking in the same way. Flanker is designed to outgun f15 eagles and eagle still the best jetfighter of USAF after raptor.

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## Abingdonboy

#hydra# said:


> All of a sudden mki become obsolete for some PDF members,thank god iaf is not thinking in the same way. Flanker is designed to outgun f15 eagles and eagle still the best jetfighter of USAF after raptor.


The MKI is still (by some margin) the most capable fighter in that part of the world but the Rafale will displace it from that spot when it enters service.

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## #hydra#

Abingdonboy said:


> The MKI is still (by some margin) the most capable fighter in that part of the world but the Rafale will displace it from that spot when it enters service.


Rafale will displace most of the stike aircraft of IAF,mki was not designed to do that job. In future war surely iaf will send first send mki to enemy airspace before rafale in for air supriority....
Iaf needs both an air superiority fighter and a multi role aircraft like rafale.

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## Abingdonboy

#hydra# said:


> Rafale will displace most of the stike aircraft of IAF,mki was not designed to do that job. In future war surely iaf will send first send mki to enemy airspace before rafale in for air supriority....
> Iaf needs both an air superiority fighter and a multi role aircraft like rafale.


I can't argue with what you are saying, it's just a good thing the IAF is getting both the MKI and Rafale

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## Taygibay

#hydra# said:


> Range?



Yes, the range is 500 kliks more for the MKI, 1/7 more for twice the size, granted!
But that would only count on the last leg of a mission on such aircrafts ... because
they are refuellable and since your gift to Sukhoi cannot do low penetration, well ...
it won't matter in operations.

To give you a reference, Rafales made their first Libyan and Malian strikes from France.***
That's with a full load of 6 AASMs over either, and AAMs, or alternatively Scalps in Libya.
A raid by our nuke Raffys went from Istres to La Réunion, 8,800km non-stop. So 3,700km range ...
Less fuel used than MKIs too! The range is not a problem and I fit is, you should check the Tejas'.

Read you later, Tay.

*** 2011 & 2013 respectively.

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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> Yes, the range is 500 kliks more for the MKI 1/7 more for twice the size, granted!
> But that would only count on the last leg of a mission on such aircrafts ... because
> they are refuellable and since your gift to Sukhoi cannot do low penetration, well ...
> it won't matter in operations.


No problem 










Taygibay said:


> and I fit is, you should check the Tejas'.


To be fair sir, no one is expecting the LCA to be engaged in deep penetration missions, it is going to be a "rear guard" with some CAS missions allocated on a need basis but for the most part it is true to being the MiG-21's replacement- nothing less, nothing really more. So it doesn't really need the "legs" like the MKI and Rafale as it will never be far from base or a "mothership":

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> 30 minutes for one engine on Rafale. 1 hour in total.



Let's not get carried away! 1H30-1H45 for one engine, a full morning or afternoon for the set!
That's still very near world's best if not. Of course, some teams may go faster in specific condi-
tions and sometimes it will take longer. IIRC, the guys that changed one on the USS Truman
took 3 hours to do the job. But that was another first. With practice, it would go down! 

Tay.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> 3 points
> 
> Rs 58,600 crs that's the closest rounded up figure of the deal
> French team probable visit in 3rd or 4th week of May
> File moved to Cabinet committee for approval.
> Few more
> 
> DCNS will be given a relaxation for FDI route investment for bringing in AIP tech.. Not sure what happened to DRDO AIP ones..
> 
> Blackshark torpedo deal file dust has been cleaned and is getting ready.. Indications of Italy and marine issue solved evolving slowly by some mutual agreement. Scorpene first kalavari induction coming soon so Blackshark deal getting looked at priority.
> 
> Strategic partnership part of DPP 2016 is almost firmed up.. Will be released soon for MII part of things..


Nice update there brother- the Blackshark issue had been causing me some anxiety as the Kalaveri gets closer and closer to induction but I trusted the DM to come good on this matter. Any updates on the S-70B? Last heard LM were confident on getting the deal secured shortly but the lack of any real attention given to this critcal (and absurdly delayed) procurement is more worrying as is the fact that it is but a very limited fix with a maximum of 24 S-70Bs coming in this contract- a pitiful amount for the IN what requires 100+ of the type (10 ton ASW/utility).

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## Abingdonboy

@PARIKRAMA @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay 

I heard from a friend just now that the (uprated) M88 somehow making its way onto the LCA isn't simply fanboy/forum fantasies and that this had been discussed, ca anyone confirm? 

Have the F414s already been ordered for the MK.2? @Stephen Cohen @MilSpec @ni8mare @randomradio

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## W@rwolf

Abingdonboy said:


> Have the F414s already been ordered for the MK.2?



This is a 2015 report-

"ADA agreed to buy eight F414 engines in 2012 for an undisclosed amount, while *HAL "initialled" an agreement* for 99 additional engines for around USD800 million.

The latter *deal will be signed once the LCA Mk 2 programme is advanced*. It envisions the initial import of a limited number of engines, with the remainder being delivered in kit form for assembly by HAL in Bangalore."

http://www.janes.com/article/52873/india-expects-first-engines-for-tejas-mk-2-to-arrive-by-year-end

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## Abingdonboy

W@rwolf said:


> This is a 2015 report-
> 
> "ADA agreed to buy eight F414 engines in 2012 for an undisclosed amount, while *HAL "initialled" an agreement* for 99 additional engines for around USD800 million.
> 
> The latter *deal will be signed once the LCA Mk 2 programme is advanced*. It envisions the initial import of a limited number of engines, with the remainder being delivered in kit form for assembly by HAL in Bangalore."
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/52873/india-expects-first-engines-for-tejas-mk-2-to-arrive-by-year-end


Thanks for the info brother, very interesting indeed so there is the scope for other options to be looked at now the picture has changed considerably....

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## SR-91

Abingdonboy said:


> I can't argue with what you are saying, it's just a good thing the IAF is getting both the MKI and Rafale



Next decade will be extremely exciting for Indian military forces and for India in general.

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## Abingdonboy

SR-91 said:


> Next decade will be extremely exciting for Indian military forces and for India in general.


Agreed, from 2022 onwards will be a good time to be Indian (not that it isn't already )



+ that doesn't have anything to do with the Rafale at all

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## SR-91

Abingdonboy said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay
> 
> I heard from a friend just now that the (uprated) M88 somehow making its way onto the LCA isn't simply fanboy/forum fantasies and that this had been discussed, ca anyone confirm?
> 
> Have the F414s already been ordered for the MK.2? @Stephen Cohen @MilSpec @ni8mare @randomradio




There was some news last year that eight if GE F414 engines will arrive in India by the end of 2015. But these eight were supposed to be for MK2 LCA. There is a initial agreement for 99 more engines but I don't think it has been signed yet.

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## sathya

Abingdonboy said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay
> 
> I heard from a friend just now that the (uprated) M88 somehow making its way onto the LCA isn't simply fanboy/forum fantasies and that this had been discussed, ca anyone confirm?
> 
> Have the F414s already been ordered for the MK.2? @Stephen Cohen @MilSpec @ni8mare @randomradio



Specs comparison of GE404in20 & M88 * Eco demonstrator


http://www.geaviation.com/engines/docs/military/datasheet-F404-Family.pdf


http://www.snecma.com/file/download/fiche_m88_2011_ang_hd.pdf

----------------------------------------------------------

GE F404in20 ( 19000lbs ) < ECO demo (20250lbs ) < F414INS6 ( 22000) < F414EPE (26000)

Only wet thrust info was available in GE website.

Other physical specs please check above link


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## Abingdonboy

sathya said:


> Specs comparison of GE404in20 & M88 * Eco demonstrator
> 
> 
> http://www.geaviation.com/engines/docs/military/datasheet-F404-Family.pdf
> 
> 
> http://www.snecma.com/file/download/fiche_m88_2011_ang_hd.pdf
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> GE F404in20 ( 19000lbs ) < ECO demo (20250lbs ) < F414INS6 ( 22000) < F414EPE (26000)
> 
> Only wet thrust info was available in GE website.
> 
> Other physical specs please check above link


The M88 for commonality with the IAF's Rafales and the strategic autonomy that will provide transcends the outright spec IMHO.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> The M88 for commonality with the IAF's Rafales and the strategic autonomy that will provide transcends the outright spec IMHO.


The specs of existing engine in the M-88 family doesn't matter a lot. We don't want to redesign the Rafale intakes so we keep to use the same engine with technology upgrades. But for a new plane you can choose between 7.5 t and 11 t thrust in the M-88 family.

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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> The specs of existing engine in the M-88 family doesn't matter a lot. We don't want to redesign the Rafale intakes so we keep to use the same engine with technology upgrades. But for a new plane you can choose between 7.5 t and 11 t thrust in the M-88 family.


The Mk.2 will be massively redesigned anyway and the intakes's design were always going to be changed to accomadate the different requirements of the F414 so there is the scope to design the LCA MK.2 around the M88 (perhaps full spec version with 11T). 

@Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @knight11 @ni8mare @PARIKRAMA surely this is the optimal approach and then ork with SNEMCA to develop an M88 derivative for the AMCA?

I just hope inertia and poltical considerations (bootlicking the Americans by this current GoI) don't get in the way.

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## knight11

Abingdonboy said:


> The Mk.2 will be massively redesigned anyway and the intakes's design were always going to be changed to accomadate the different requirements of the F414 so there is the scope to design the LCA MK.2 around the M88 (perhaps full spec version with 11T).
> 
> @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @knight11 @ni8mare @PARIKRAMA surely this is the optimal approach and then ork with SNEMCA to develop an M88 derivative for the AMCA?
> 
> I just hope inertia and poltical considerations (bootlicking the Americans by this current GoI) don't get in the way.



Sorry I differ with your views brother

1. Integrated Modular avionics development from Thales is the key for the AMCA. Kindly read about that.

2. Developing Airframe, is not difficult part, but the real challenge for the AMCA would be Powerplant and Avionics and Sensors.

3. Rafale build in India rather HAL or any pvt company will benifit India, with huge number of Sub contractors and companies building various LRU's and avionics in the country.

4. Whether F414 or M88, they should be used initially but, should be powered by Kaveri -- 115KN turbofan Engine.

5. We are fortunate that HAL is already working on Mirrge 2000-5 upgrade with MDPU, and the other planes having such features are HAWK trainer, and Rafale. P.S both F-22 and F-35 have such avionics artitecture and you cannot build 5th Gen AMCA with 486 Mission computer brother.

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## Abingdonboy

knight11 said:


> 1. Integrated Modular avionics development from Thales is the key for the AMCA. Kindly read about that.


Yup, 100% and the Rafale buy will help in that regard.



knight11 said:


> 2. Developing Airframe, is not difficult part, but the real challenge for the AMCA would be Powerplant and Avionics and Sensors.


Indeed and it is important to have a clear roadmap early on instead of running into the same issues as the LCA that forced the Kaveri to be de-linked from the main LCA project. 



knight11 said:


> 3. Rafale build in India rather HAL or any pvt company will benifit India, with huge number of Sub contractors and companies building various LRU's and avionics in the country.


Exactly right, the industrial base is going to swell as well as improve qualatatively as the technologies that France will bring to India are going to cutting edge and world class (not so much with the Russians thus far).



knight11 said:


> 4. Whether F414 or M88, they should be used initially but, should be powered by Kaveri -- 115KN turbofan Engine.


That would be ideal but will require a huge amount of effort and I think it will be better to leverage the M88's induction in the IAF and the willingness of the French to work with India for the Kaveri rather than the negligable support GE would offer. I think @Picdelamirand-oil has said that there was a proposal to build the Kaveri around the M88 core.

It seems more logical at this point to ditch the F414 for the LCA Mk.2 and any plans there may have been to have the 414 EPE on the AMCA.


Not so sure we disagree that much my friend.

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## knight11



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## Abingdonboy

knight11 said:


>


Thanks for the information @knight11 It's very interesting, whilst I knew about the MDPU, I wasn't aware that only the F-22,F-35, Rafale and Mirage 2000-9 (and now -5 Mk.2 of the IAF) had it, I assumed the Typhoon and Gripen NG would have it. Hopefully HAL's work on the Mirage upgrade trickles down to the LCA Mk.2 and AMCA with these cutting edge technologies.

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## knight11

Abingdonboy said:


> Thanks for the information @knight11 It's very interesting, whilst I knew about the MDPU, I wasn't aware that only the F-22,F-35, Rafale and Mirage 2000-9 (and now -5 Mk.2 of the IAF) had it, I assumed the Typhoon and Gripen NG would have it. Hopefully HAL's work on the Mirage upgrade trickles down to the LCA Mk.2 and AMCA with these cutting edge technologies.



Thanks now you know actually why Mirage 2000 upgrade cost was so high ?? And why India didn't gone for the Israeli solution of Upgrade. One more thing of French Aircraft is the quality of the Tools. Only few tools is required for checking the Airframe integrity, and the commonality with the Rafale with the Mirage 2000.

Beside that French Navigation System, and Targetting Pod, and as you know very well IAF love MICA, I would love to have them in LCA Tejas MK-1 but its damn costly.

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## Taygibay

Total data fusion was conceptualized for the Rafale. The UAE required it
for their Mirage 2000 and the resulting cooperation made it better for
both. MDPU appeared on Rafale at F2 standard.
Between its original central network units and MDPU, volume decreased
by 50 %, power requirements by a whooping 60 % and weight by 25%.









​I am surprised to learn that you did not know Abingdon mate!
When I discuss jet fighters, I sort of assume that such major
qualities are known. Rafale is data-fusion and network centric.
The only so called 5th Gen trait it lacks is VLO instead of LO.

And it has a get-around solution to that, Tay.

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## knight11

@Taygibay our Airforce loves MICA specially IR -- I understand its light wt, and its original range is secret, but it has best propulsion. Is there any plan for new Generation MICA -- More smart, Lofter profile, longer range.


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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> I am surprised to learn that you did not know Abingdon mate!


I knew the MDPU was on the Rafale and thus assumed it was to be found across a large number of plaforms, to find out that the pool is limited to the F-22/35, the (upgraded) Mirage 2000s and the Rafales is really quite shocking to me and a pleasant surprise indeed if you're looking at it from an Indian perspective  



Taygibay said:


> The only so called 5th Gen trait it lacks is VLO instead of LO.


And even "VLO" is a bit of a farce and can be defeated given the right tactics/system employment. It's this that frustrates me when certain ignoramuses start claiming the F-35 can be the only logical choice for the IN or that the J-20/31 is simply better because of their "stealth" properties. The sheer quality and power of the Rafale's systems means it will easily be one of the world's most capable fighters for the next 2 decades (at least). There is a reason the French armed forces have no inclination for a so-called "5th gen" platform, they know they are onto a winner.



knight11 said:


> Thanks now you know actually why Mirage 2000 upgrade cost was so high ?? And why India didn't gone for the Israeli solution of Upgrade. One more thing of French Aircraft is the quality of the Tools. Only few tools is required for checking the Airframe integrity, and the commonality with the Rafale with the Mirage 2000..


Well put, I was never one of those critics who compared the price of the MiG-29UPG and Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 upgrades as that was foolish beyond beleif given all the benefits the Mirgae upgrade was bringing. The MiG-29UPG is pretty tame in comparison and a relatively standard MLU really. 



knight11 said:


> Beside that French Navigation System, and *Targetting Pod*, and as you know very well IAF love MICA, I would love to have them in LCA Tejas MK-1 but its damn costly.



The IAF, interestingly, have chosen the LITENING over the DAMOCLES at every opportunity.

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## Taygibay

knight11 said:


> Is there any plan for new Generation MICA -- More smart, Lofter profile, longer range.



It's called Mica NG, of course, and is on its slow way.
"The budget includes replacing the Mica with the Mica NG, with fresh propellant and new sensors."​http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...laurent-collet-billon-dga-interview/71263534/​Have a great day, Tay.

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## knight11

Abingdonboy said:


> The IAF, interestingly, have chosen the LITENING over the DAMOCLES at every opportunity.



Cost factor.



Abingdonboy said:


> The IAF, interestingly, have chosen the LITENING over the DAMOCLES at every opportunity.



Cost factor.


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## Taygibay

Abingdonboy said:


> I knew the MDPU was on the Rafale and thus assumed it was to be found across a large number of plaforms, to find out that the pool is limited to the F-22/35, the (upgraded) Mirage 2000s and the Rafales is really quite shocking to me and a pleasant surprise indeed if you're looking at it from an Indian perspective



This requires a precision. Those are the first planes made around data fusion and network.
They're designed that way. Other planes use these concepts but as patches on an earlier
design. They attempt to mimic total data fusion.
For instance, Typhoon goes :



​There is an MDP in there and a unifying bus, it's not as elegantly simple though.
Data fusion means that all available informations are weighed & sorted first so
that you can intervene at any logic level to consolidate input/output values.
Rafale, F-22 & F-35 are built for it and M2000s gained it. Others could too ...

Just sayin' Tay.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Taygibay said:


> Total data fusion was conceptualized for the Rafale. The UAE required it
> for their Mirage 2000 and the resulting cooperation made it better for
> both. MDPU appeared on Rafale at F2 standard.
> Between its original central network units and MDPU, volume decreased
> by 50 %, power requirements by a whooping 60 % and weight by 25%.


I have made a complementary explanation here:
https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/page-4#post-8263610

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## DrSomnath999

i just dont understand if 12 billion dollar was the price of 36 rafale jets ,i wonder what would have been the price of 126 jets then if india had gone for 126 jets !!






*CHEERS*


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## MilSpec

Abingdonboy said:


> The Mk.2 will be massively redesigned anyway and the intakes's design were always going to be changed to accomadate the different requirements of the F414 so there is the scope to design the LCA MK.2 around the M88 (perhaps full spec version with 11T).
> 
> @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @knight11 @ni8mare @PARIKRAMA surely this is the optimal approach and then ork with SNEMCA to develop an M88 derivative for the AMCA?
> 
> I just hope inertia and poltical considerations (bootlicking the Americans by this current GoI) don't get in the way.



There are a few approaches here,

It would have been optimal if the MK2 was designed as per MMRCA paltforms down select, EFT with EJ200 or Rafale. Both Engines though have lower specs as required by the Mk2 though.

the second approach would be, FG404/414 as a stopgap for LCA Mk2, LCA MK2 Naval, and get an GTRX variant finalized for both AMCA and MK2.

Lastly and most unlikely option would be to make modular engine bays for both AMCA and Mk2 and following blocks, as a modular system capable of assimilating EJ200/ F414/ GTRX/ M88/ RD33MK as an export option depending of the user requirement.



DrSomnath999 said:


> i just dont understand if 12 billion dollar was the price of 36 rafale jets ,i wonder what would have been the price of 126 jets then if india had gone for 126 jets !!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *CHEERS*


The same difference in Price if you decided to import say 50 BMW M5's and sell them in your dealership, compared to Collaborating with BMW to setup a production line in India.
Also lets not forget Rs has depreciated substantially since the onset of this deal.

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## AugenBlick

DrSomnath999 said:


> i just dont understand if 12 billion dollar was the price of 36 rafale jets ,i wonder what would have been the price of 126 jets then if india had gone for 126 jets !!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *CHEERS*


Please read earlier discussion this has been well explained. Unitary method doesnot apply.

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## Taygibay

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> I have made a complementary explanation here:



Yes, good link as I had omitted mention of the hardware virtualization which is essential.

Thanks, Tay.

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## BON PLAN

knight11 said:


> @Taygibay our Airforce loves MICA specially IR -- I understand its light wt, and its original range is secret, but it has best propulsion. Is there any plan for new Generation MICA -- More smart, Lofter profile, longer range.


French air force prefer more speed than more range for MICA NG. 
Because Meteor will be there for long range.
And because no medium (or long) ranged missile had been fired operationnaly at max range (or at least shoot the target at max range). So FAF think increasing speed is more interesting than range for MICA.

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## Stephen Cohen

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA 

PARIS (Reuters) - Dassault Aviation hopes to seal "one or two" contracts to sell its Rafale planes this year and this would include a much-heralded deal to sell 36 Rafale fighter jets to India, its chief executive said an interview.

"One can hope for on one or two contracts this year, including India," Eric Trappier was reported as saying by magazine Challenges on its Challenges.fr web site.

Negotiations for India to buy 36 French Rafale fighter jets are nearing the finish line, the Indian defence ministry said last week, with sources saying the price will be set at around $9 billion.

"Significantly progress has been made and I sense a true
will to reach an agreement, possibly in the coming weeks," Trappier said of the India talks.

Both sides had hoped to wrap up the strategic order during President Francois Hollande's visit for India's Republic Day celebration in January, but hard bargaining on price stalled a final result.

Dassault Aviation said in March it was working on deals to also sell Rafale jets to Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...fale-deals-in-2016-report-116042500276_1.html

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Vietnam & Rafale? 
http://defence-blog.com/news/vietnam-in-talk-to-purchase-about-12-gripen-or-rafale-fighter.html

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## knight11

BON PLAN said:


> French air force prefer more speed than more range for MICA NG.
> Because Meteor will be there for long range.
> And because no medium (or long) ranged missile had been fired operationnaly at max range (or at least shoot the target at max range). So FAF think increasing speed is more interesting than range for MICA.



The idea of MICA was to bring the BVR and WVR missile to One, that's why the designer choosed TVC and surface control (13 control surfaces). What makes MICA IR lethal, that it is low wt. -- 115 KG, very sensitive proximity Fuse -- Best in its Class, have twin wavelenth Seaker -- Could not be fooled by chalfs, and good Propulsion -- That's why 60 KM range, and could be used as IR Sensor when on board the aircraft.

Only problem is the cost.

India can get benifit from France with Pylons for LCA. Twin arm, tri arm pylon and get knowledge for the Supersonic Fuel tank with Low RCS and avionics.

1. One question comes to mind, do you think the MMRCA competition helped France in their Export orders.
@Taygibay @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA

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## Ankit Kumar 002

@PARIKRAMA and @Abingdonboy 

36+90 is what the talks about 
http://m.challenges.fr/article/2016...espere-un-a-deux-contrats-rafale-en-2016.html

From the article translated.

Last January, after the visit of François Hollande in India, you felt able to sign the final contract for 36 Rafale "within 4 weeks." You see, finally, the end of the tunnel?

Significant progress has been made, and I sense a real determination to succeed, possibly in the coming weeks. But India remains India: the government wants to be sure before signing, the supplier has given all he could give. I am confident, because the army of the Indian Air has a long history with Dassault: the first hurricane were delivered in 1953! We can hope a two contracts this year, including India, although the time flies.


US competitors are doing the headquarters in New Delhi, with assembly lines proposed F-16 or F-18 in India. Is this a credible threat?

Indeed, we all lobbies against us: the Russians, the British, Swedes and, of course, Americans. Behind the 36 aircraft contract we negotiate, all candidates promise assembly sites to win the following 90. But offer a factory F-16 to India when you come to sell the same aircraft to Pakistan does not seem very serious. The US has already won contracts with the Air Force for transport aircraft in particular. If India sign for 36 Rafale, we will be well positioned to provide, if New Delhi confirms its need 126 combat aircraft, the following 90.

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## Abingdonboy

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> @PARIKRAMA and @Abingdonboy
> 
> 36+90 is what the talks about
> http://m.challenges.fr/article/2016...espere-un-a-deux-contrats-rafale-en-2016.html
> 
> From the article translated.
> 
> Last January, after the visit of François Hollande in India, you felt able to sign the final contract for 36 Rafale "within 4 weeks." You see, finally, the end of the tunnel?
> 
> Significant progress has been made, and I sense a real determination to succeed, possibly in the coming weeks. But India remains India: the government wants to be sure before signing, the supplier has given all he could give. I am confident, because the army of the Indian Air has a long history with Dassault: the first hurricane were delivered in 1953! We can hope a two contracts this year, including India, although the time flies.
> 
> 
> US competitors are doing the headquarters in New Delhi, with assembly lines proposed F-16 or F-18 in India. Is this a credible threat?
> 
> Indeed, we all lobbies against us: the Russians, the British, Swedes and, of course, Americans. Behind the 36 aircraft contract we negotiate, all candidates promise assembly sites to win the following 90. But offer a factory F-16 to India when you come to sell the same aircraft to Pakistan does not seem very serious. The US has already won contracts with the Air Force for transport aircraft in particular. If India sign for 36 Rafale, we will be well positioned to provide, if New Delhi confirms its need 126 combat aircraft, the following 90.





Stephen Cohen said:


> @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA
> 
> PARIS (Reuters) - Dassault Aviation hopes to seal "one or two" contracts to sell its Rafale planes this year and this would include a much-heralded deal to sell 36 Rafale fighter jets to India, its chief executive said an interview.
> 
> "One can hope for on one or two contracts this year, including India," Eric Trappier was reported as saying by magazine Challenges on its Challenges.fr web site.
> 
> Negotiations for India to buy 36 French Rafale fighter jets are nearing the finish line, the Indian defence ministry said last week, with sources saying the price will be set at around $9 billion.
> 
> "Significantly progress has been made and I sense a true
> will to reach an agreement, possibly in the coming weeks," Trappier said of the India talks.
> 
> Both sides had hoped to wrap up the strategic order during President Francois Hollande's visit for India's Republic Day celebration in January, but hard bargaining on price stalled a final result.
> 
> Dassault Aviation said in March it was working on deals to also sell Rafale jets to Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates.
> http://www.business-standard.com/ar...fale-deals-in-2016-report-116042500276_1.html




Now the mainstream media is (somewhat) talking about the follow-on 90 units to be made in India and dispelling the myth they had been spouting for the past year that the deal was now for "only" 36 off the shelf birds. They are only about 8 months late.



knight11 said:


> 1. One question comes to mind, do you think the MMRCA competition helped France in their Export orders.
> @Taygibay @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA


Personally I don't think so BUT the sucessful sale to India WILL help Dassualt's sales pitch IMHO especially when the make in India line is up and running. India will act as a catalyst for other export orders/customisations IMO.



knight11 said:


> India can get benifit from France with Pylons for LCA. Twin arm, tri arm pylon and get knowledge for the Supersonic Fuel tank with Low RCS and avionics.


Would love to see double ejector racks on the LCA! Surely the Rafale is going to revolutionise the entire IAF fighter stream with the systems/tech it brings (new pylons, AASM, new diagnostic procedures, greater situational awareness capabilities etc etc) that will trickle down to the rest of the fleet- there is already talk of fitting AASMs on the MKI, Jaguar, Mirage-2000 and MiG-29Ks (of the IN). 

It's weird how little impact the MKI had on the rest of the IAF fighter fleet but then it didn't really have specific lessons/tech that could be applied to the rest of the (non-MKI) fleet.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

knight11 said:


> 1. One question comes to mind, do you think the MMRCA competition helped France in their Export orders.
> @Taygibay @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA


Personnaly I think it helped, because it was a big surprise for Anglo-saxon (US and UK) For them Rafale doesn't exist they never consider it as a potential competitor and they were forced to consider it. After that the leak of the Swiss evaluation have had a lot of influence.

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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Personnaly I think it helped, because it was a big surprise for Anglo-saxon (US and UK) For them Rafale doesn't exist they never consider it as a potential competitor and they were forced to consider it. After that the leak of the Swiss evaluation have had a lot of influence.


I hadn't considered this point and it's a very strong point indeed sir! I remember the reaction of "downselect" being shock (from the Americans) and considerable confidence of success (from the Brits, afterall India is their subordinate, right?). I don't remember much commentary about the Rafale before the MMRCA decsion, before then there was a lot of F-22 vs EFT talk though. 

The Rafale was the underdog throughout the MMRCA process and to eventually come out on top (based purely on merit) must have been a sweet feeling for the French.

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## BON PLAN

knight11 said:


> The idea of MICA was to bring the BVR and WVR missile to One, that's why the designer choosed TVC and surface control (13 control surfaces). What makes MICA IR lethal, that it is low wt. -- 115 KG, very sensitive proximity Fuse -- Best in its Class, have twin wavelenth Seaker -- Could not be fooled by chalfs, and good Propulsion -- That's why 60 KM range, and could be used as IR Sensor when on board the aircraft.


Where do you see 13 surface controls? Only four, and the 4 small palets in the exhaust nozzle.



knight11 said:


> One question comes to mind, do you think the MMRCA competition helped France in their Export orders


From the beginning Indian MMRCA appeared to be a very professionnal field test. Maybe the harder to date.

So to be among the last two, for a fighter already deniesed by all king of french bashing was a strong point. And to end as the L1 prove the Dassault fighter was not so costly than some said years after years, even in France !

So it doen't help to make a sale, but this, plus Swiss eval leaks, plus Lybian and Mali strikes help to built a strong reputation to that plane. 

And it's becoming to pay in export campaign.

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## Taygibay

knight11 said:


> 1. One question comes to mind, do you think the MMRCA competition helped France in their Export orders.
> @Taygibay @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA



https://dlofr.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/jet-fighters-why-france-should-thank-india/



Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> the first hurricane were delivered in 1953!



LOL That would be l'Ouragan



Thnx Google transl./trance!

Good day all, Tay.

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## C130

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Vietnam & Rafale?
> http://defence-blog.com/news/vietnam-in-talk-to-purchase-about-12-gripen-or-rafale-fighter.html




I think Gripen would be a good fit for Vietnam.

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## knight11

C130 said:


> I think Gripen would be a good fit for Vietnam.



However Vietnam Negotiating for Rafale or Gripen seems fake news to me, but if so, they should go for Rafale if the number is 12 birds.


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## C130

knight11 said:


> However Vietnam Negotiating for Rafale or Gripen seems fake news to me, but if so, they should go for Rafale if the number is 12 birds.



Pretty sure Vietnam is looking for a light fighter. If Vietnam can get a good deal for the Gripen they should go for it. Rafale is good, but Gripen is a smart fighter and I think it can outsmart the Chinese fighters


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## Taygibay

knight11 said:


> ... if the number is 12 birds ...


 

... then they should go for Death Stars!




Anything less won't cut it! 

 Tay.

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## knight11

Taygibay said:


> ... then they should go for Death Stars!
> View attachment 301969
> 
> Anything less won't cut it!
> 
> Tay.



Few nukes can do the jobs 

Might be possible french lost the count during the nuclear test in South Pacific Ocean 



C130 said:


> Pretty sure Vietnam is looking for a light fighter. If Vietnam can get a good for the Gripen they should go for it. Rafale is good, but Gripen is a smart fighter and I think it can outsmart the Chinese fighters



1. Vietnam had very good relationship with India.
2. India and Vietnam have SU-30
3. India and Vietnam have Mig 21 and looking for Replacement.
4. India and Vietnam have a Big neigbour People Republic of China.
5. India have already selected Rafale. Vietnam yet too.

However it will depend on how Vietnami thinks, and what is their doctrine. .

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## Taygibay

knight11 said:


> Might be possible french lost the count during the nuclear test in South Pacific Ocean



Unlikely as we have fewer than the two big boyz.
But if you saw that John Oliver video, some almost do!

Going out before we veer too off-topic, Tay.

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## #hydra#

knight11 said:


> Few nukes can do the jobs
> 
> Might be possible french lost the count during the nuclear test in South Pacific Ocean
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Vietnam had very good relationship with India.
> 2. India and Vietnam have SU-30
> 3. India and Vietnam have Mig 21 and looking for Replacement.
> 4. India and Vietnam have a Big neigbour People Republic of China.
> 5. India have already selected Rafale. Vietnam yet too.
> 
> However it will depend on how Vietnami thinks, and what is their doctrine. .


We should convince them for going nuclear,nd shold assist them in devoloping nukes & missile.


----------



## knight11

#hydra# said:


> We should convince them for going nuclear,nd shold assist them in devoloping nukes & missile.



Are Bhai I was just KIDDING, DON'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

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## Carlosa

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Vietnam & Rafale?
> http://defence-blog.com/news/vietnam-in-talk-to-purchase-about-12-gripen-or-rafale-fighter.html



It would be nice if Vietnam can piggy back on the Indian Rafale deal and add some jets as part of the same deal, but that's probably asking too much.



C130 said:


> Pretty sure Vietnam is looking for a light fighter. If Vietnam can get a good deal for the Gripen they should go for it. Rafale is good, but Gripen is a smart fighter and I think it can outsmart the Chinese fighters



You are right, but the issue for Vietnam is the American engines,



knight11 said:


> Few nukes can do the jobs
> 
> Might be possible french lost the count during the nuclear test in South Pacific Ocean
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Vietnam had very good relationship with India.
> 2. India and Vietnam have SU-30
> 3. India and Vietnam have Mig 21 and looking for Replacement.
> 4. India and Vietnam have a Big neigbour People Republic of China.
> 5. India have already selected Rafale. Vietnam yet too.
> 
> However it will depend on how Vietnami thinks, and what is their doctrine. .



I see Vietnam going increasingly with weapon systems that have been selected by India.
Russia did some statements a few days ago in support of the chinese claims in SCS and Vietnam issued official statements complaining about that which is quite unusual considering their close relationship, so Vietnam needs to diversify.

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## BON PLAN

C130 said:


> I think Gripen would be a good fit for Vietnam.


Too short legs. 
And Vietnam want to show some muscles over China, specially about some islands, so Gripen a little bit short.
If not, Gripen is a nice light fighter.

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## Carlosa

BON PLAN said:


> Too short legs. And Vietnam want to show some muscles over China, specially about some islands.



Yes, Vietnam needs something like a combat radius of 1000 km plus in order to cover the full Spratlys.

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## C130

BON PLAN said:


> Too short legs.
> And Vietnam want to show some muscles over China, specially about some islands, so Gripen a little bit short.
> If not, Gripen is a nice light fighter.




it's got legs not Rafale legs but not too bad.







in this config two WVR missile, two BVR missiles, four anti ship missiles, and two giant drop tanks1700 liters

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## Yaralava

C130 said:


> it's got legs not Rafale legs but not too bad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in this config two WVR missile, two BVR missiles, four anti ship missiles, and two giant drop tanks1700 liters



THAT is just Amazing.


----------



## Carlosa

C130 said:


> it's got legs not Rafale legs but not too bad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in this config two WVR missile, two BVR missiles, four anti ship missiles, and two giant drop tanks1700 liters



Nice, what's the combat radius in this configuration?


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## C130

Carlosa said:


> Nice, what's the combat radius in this configuration?




not sure but I would guess 1,000KM

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## Carlosa

C130 said:


> not sure but I would guess 1,000KM



Not bad at all. That's just about right for Vietnam.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

C130 said:


> it's got legs not Rafale legs but not too bad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in this config two WVR missile, two BVR missiles, four anti ship missiles, and two giant drop tanks1700 liters


How he released his landing gear?

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## C130

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> How he released his landing gear?


they are drop tanks he'll just drop them

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## Yaralava

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> How he released his landing gear?



Good point  ............. guess CGI creativity does tend to overlook more practical considerations 



C130 said:


> they are drop tanks he'll just drop them



how about Take off ?

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## #hydra#

knight11 said:


> Are Bhai I was just KIDDING, DON'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.


But i am not,china did this to us throug pakistan.


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## Abingdonboy

C130 said:


> it's got legs not Rafale legs but not too bad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in this config two WVR missile, two BVR missiles, four anti ship missiles, and two giant drop tanks1700 liters


Adding to @Picdelamirand-oil 's most fundamental question about the inability to deploy landing gear (and thus not being able to take off), does the Gripen have 2 wet stations along the centreline? Nothing I have seen indicates this. This is fanboy art.

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## BON PLAN

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> How he released his landing gear?


It take off on a ski.... as a V1 nazi rocket, with landing gear up. 



Abingdonboy said:


> Adding to @Picdelamirand-oil 's most fundamental question about the inability to deploy landing gear (and thus not being able to take off), does the Gripen have 2 wet stations along the centreline? Nothing I have seen indicates this. This is fanboy art.


But what a nice picture !!!!

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## Abingdonboy

BON PLAN said:


> It take off on a ski.... as a V1 nazi rocket, with landing gear up.
> 
> 
> But what a nice picture !!!!


Very much so, it reminds me of this:













To date the best CGI I have seen for a plane in IAF colours (even though that never came to fruition  )

There's something about the fact that the Gripen being so small requring such tight packing of stores that just looks so "right".

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## PARIKRAMA

*Just a side chit chat..*

Gripen chances in India is not zero but "negative"

NDA government can never say yes to Gripen bcz of a small but significant fact that a wiki leaks cable had allegation that Former PM Rajiv Gandhi was a key middle man in Saab Viggen deal. Of course its not proven, but owing to this fact, the Gripen chances or rather any product of Saab is difficult to come in unless and untill BJP renounces and states that this wiki leak cable pasted below is a false accusation of a former PM from Congress Party.

Here is the cable.

CONFIDENTIAL PAGE 01 NEW DE 01909 061554Z 14 ACTION NEA-10 INFO OCT-01 EUR-12 ISO-00 CIAE-00 PM-04 H-02 INR-07 L-03 NSAE-00 NSC-05 PA-01 PRS-01 SP-02 SS-15 USIA-06 MC-02 ACDA-05 EB-07 SAM-01 TRSE-00 OMB-01 /085 W --------------------- 087881 R 061237Z FEB 76 FM AMEMBASSY NEW DELHI TO SECSTATE WASHDC 3883 INFO AMEMBASSY ISLAMABAD AMEMBASSY LONDON AMEMBASSY MOSCOW AMEMBASSY PARIS AMEMBASSY STOCKHOLM CINCPAC DIA WASHDC C O N F I D E N T I A L NEW DELHI 1909 CINCPAC FOR POLAD E.O. 11652: XGDS-1 TAGS: MASS, PFOR, IN, US SUBJECT: SWEDES SEE VIGGEN AGAIN ACTIVE COMPETITOR REF: NEW DELHI 0845

1. THE SWEDES HERE ARE ONCE AGAIN OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THEIR CHANCES OF SELLING THE VIGGEN TO THE INDIAN AIR FORCE. THE SAAB SCANIA SALES MANAGER AND THE CHIEF TECHNICAL ADVISOR, THE FORMER ACTING COMMANDER OF THE SWEDISH AIR FORCE, RETURNED TO NEW DELHI TEN DAYS AGO FOR CONFERENCES WITH THE INDIANS. THE TECHNICAL ADVISOR IS STILL HERE AND WILL REMAIN AS LONG AS NECESSARY TO HANDLE QUESTIONS FROM THE NEW INDIAN DEFENSE MINISTER AND NEW IAF CHIEF OF THE STAFF, BOTH OF WHOM ACCORDING TO OUR SWEDISH COLLEAGUE, REQUIRE TIME TO BRIEF THEMSELVES ON THE COMPETING FIGHTERS. CONFIDENTIAL CONFIDENTIAL 

PAGE 02 NEW DE 01909 061554Z 

2. THE SWEDES HERE EXPECT THAT THE IAF WILL SEND A TEST PILOT TO SWEDEN TO FLY THE VIGGEN SINCE THE CURRENT MODELS COMING OFF THE LINE ARE AIRWORTHY. HE TELLS US THE INDIANS HAVE ACCEPTED THE EXPLANATION FOR THE WING STRUCTURAL DEFECT WHICH TEMPORARILY GROUNDED THE EARLY MODELS. 

3. THE SWEDES BELIEVE THEIR MOST TELLING POINT, HOWEVER, IS THE LONGEVITY OF THE AIRCRAFT. THEY SAY THEY HAVE CON- VINCED THE IAF THAT THE REPLACEABLE AVIONICS PACKAGES IN THE VIGGEN RENDER IT CAPABLE OF PERIODIC MODERNIZATION WITH THE RESULT THAT IT WILL BE VIABLE UNTIL 2000 (WHICH SOUNDS A BIT FAR FETCHED TO US). OUR SWEDISH COLLEAGUE SAID THE PROPOSAL CONTINUES TO BE THAT THE INDIANS BUILD THE AIRFRAMES AND POSSIBLY SOME ENGINES OR ENGINE COMPONENTS, BUT THE SWEDES PROVIDE THE AVIONICS. SINCE THE INDIANS WANT "THE BEST", ACCORDING TO OUR SWEDISH CONTACT, THE IAF REGARDS THE AVIONICS AS VITAL. MOREOVER, THE SWEDES WOULD NOT CONSIDER SELLING THE VIGGEN WITHOUT THE "BLACK BOXES." THESE FACTORS, THE SWEDES ASSERT, GO A LONG WAY TO OFFSET THE DISADVANTAGE OF RELATIVELY HIGH INITIAL UNIT COST. ANOTHER INDUCEMENT, AS SEEN BY THE SWEDES HERE, IS THAT SAAB SCANIA HAS COMPLETED ITS SURVEY OF INDIAN EXPORTS AND CONCLUDED IT COULD MARKET SEVERAL ITEMS IN SWEDEN OR THE WEST MAKING A BARTER TYPE ARRANGEMENT AT LEAST FEASIBLE FROM THE SWEDISH POINT OF VIEW. 

4. THE SWEDISH FOREIGN MINISTER IS DUE ON A VISIT TO NEW DELHI CIRCA MARCH 1. THE SWEDES ARE BRACED FOR ANOTHER INDIAN APPEAL FOR CREDIT WHICH OUR COLLEAGUE SAYS SWEDEN WILL NOT GRANT, BUT HE DID SAY THE MINISTER WOULD STRONGLY SUPPORT THE VIGGEN SALE. OUR COLLEAGUE WOULD NOT SAY WHAT OTHER CONCESSIONS THE SWEDES MAY BE CONSIDERING. 

5. THE SWEDES HERE HAVE ALSO MADE IT QUITE CLEAR THEY UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF FAMILY INFLUENCES IN THE FINAL DECISION IN THE FIGHTER SWEEPSTAKES. OUR COLLEAGUE DESCRIBES RAJIV GANDHI IN FLATTERING TERMS, AND CONTENDS HIS TECHNICAL EXPERTISE IS OF A HIGH LEVEL. THIS MAY OR MAY NOT BE. OFFHAND WE WOULD HAVE THOUGHT A TRANSPORT PILOT NOT THE BEST EXPERT TO RELY UPON IN EVALUATING A FIGHTER PLANE, BUT THEN WE ARE SPEAKING OF A TRANSPORT PILOT WHO HAS ANOTHER AND PERHAPS MORE RELEVANT QUALIFICATION. 

CONFIDENTIAL CONFIDENTIAL 
PAGE 03 NEW DE 01909 061554Z SAXBE CONFIDENTIAL 

https://www.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/1976NEWDE01909_b.html
+++

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## C130

Abingdonboy said:


> Adding to @Picdelamirand-oil 's most fundamental question about the inability to deploy landing gear (and thus not being able to take off), does the Gripen have 2 wet stations along the centreline? Nothing I have seen indicates this. This is fanboy art.




derp I see now. this is probably just fan fiction then.








you can see in* fuel tanks *the double asterisk** that says any of the center stations can hold a fuel tank, but not all simultaneously


interesting though if I am interrupting this right Gripen NG can carry 8 NSM, but it wouldn't be able to carry any extra fuel tanks.

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## WhyCry

Abingdonboy said:


> @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @knight11 @ni8mare @PARIKRAMA surely this is the optimal approach and then ork with SNEMCA to develop an M88 derivative for the AMCA?


Well the DRDO-Snema partnership had failed with Kaveri development so its highly unlikely that this will happen. Also the design for AMCA is finalized so its definitely not happening.



knight11 said:


> Few nukes can do the jobs
> 
> 1. Vietnam had very good relationship with India.
> 2. India and Vietnam have SU-30
> 3. India and Vietnam have Mig 21 and looking for Replacement.
> 4. India and Vietnam have a Big neigbour People Republic of China.
> 5. India have already selected Rafale. Vietnam yet too.
> 
> However it will depend on how Vietnami thinks, and what is their doctrine. .



All things that you point are true but that doesn't set the direction or actual facts. Tejas is the replacement for Mig-21 and not Rafael so how is your conclusion. Also Vietnam has a total budget of $3.3 billion then how on earth can they pay almost the same amount for just 12 combat planes.

Hold your horse buddy. Gripen, F16 or even Tejas MK2 (production will start 2022) will be their choice.



MilSpec said:


> Also lets not forget Rs has depreciated substantially since the onset of this deal.



I do agree with that in perception to the 2007-08 to today. Yes that has happened (dramatically) but when the deal presented in 2012 with Rafael (refreshing its price) declared as L1 bidder then a Big NO. The Euro has its heavy downfall and has dropped from USD:Euro at 1:1.6 to 1:1.1.

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=USD&view=10Y

Also INR is almost at the same level as that of 2012-13 rates. (Inflation is not included as it will result in appreciation)

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=INR&view=10Y


----------



## Ankit Kumar 002

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Just a side chit chat..*
> 
> Gripen chances in India is not zero but "negative"
> 
> NDA government can never say yes to Gripen bcz of a small but significant fact that a wiki leaks cable had allegation that Former PM Rajiv Gandhi was a key middle man in Saab Viggen deal. Of course its not proven, but owing to this fact, the Gripen chances or rather any product of Saab is difficult to come in unless and untill BJP renounces and states that this wiki leak cable pasted below is a false accusation of a former PM from Congress Party.
> 
> Here is the cable.
> 
> CONFIDENTIAL PAGE 01 NEW DE 01909 061554Z 14 ACTION NEA-10 INFO OCT-01 EUR-12 ISO-00 CIAE-00 PM-04 H-02 INR-07 L-03 NSAE-00 NSC-05 PA-01 PRS-01 SP-02 SS-15 USIA-06 MC-02 ACDA-05 EB-07 SAM-01 TRSE-00 OMB-01 /085 W --------------------- 087881 R 061237Z FEB 76 FM AMEMBASSY NEW DELHI TO SECSTATE WASHDC 3883 INFO AMEMBASSY ISLAMABAD AMEMBASSY LONDON AMEMBASSY MOSCOW AMEMBASSY PARIS AMEMBASSY STOCKHOLM CINCPAC DIA WASHDC C O N F I D E N T I A L NEW DELHI 1909 CINCPAC FOR POLAD E.O. 11652: XGDS-1 TAGS: MASS, PFOR, IN, US SUBJECT: SWEDES SEE VIGGEN AGAIN ACTIVE COMPETITOR REF: NEW DELHI 0845
> 
> 1. THE SWEDES HERE ARE ONCE AGAIN OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THEIR CHANCES OF SELLING THE VIGGEN TO THE INDIAN AIR FORCE. THE SAAB SCANIA SALES MANAGER AND THE CHIEF TECHNICAL ADVISOR, THE FORMER ACTING COMMANDER OF THE SWEDISH AIR FORCE, RETURNED TO NEW DELHI TEN DAYS AGO FOR CONFERENCES WITH THE INDIANS. THE TECHNICAL ADVISOR IS STILL HERE AND WILL REMAIN AS LONG AS NECESSARY TO HANDLE QUESTIONS FROM THE NEW INDIAN DEFENSE MINISTER AND NEW IAF CHIEF OF THE STAFF, BOTH OF WHOM ACCORDING TO OUR SWEDISH COLLEAGUE, REQUIRE TIME TO BRIEF THEMSELVES ON THE COMPETING FIGHTERS. CONFIDENTIAL CONFIDENTIAL
> 
> PAGE 02 NEW DE 01909 061554Z
> 
> 2. THE SWEDES HERE EXPECT THAT THE IAF WILL SEND A TEST PILOT TO SWEDEN TO FLY THE VIGGEN SINCE THE CURRENT MODELS COMING OFF THE LINE ARE AIRWORTHY. HE TELLS US THE INDIANS HAVE ACCEPTED THE EXPLANATION FOR THE WING STRUCTURAL DEFECT WHICH TEMPORARILY GROUNDED THE EARLY MODELS.
> 
> 3. THE SWEDES BELIEVE THEIR MOST TELLING POINT, HOWEVER, IS THE LONGEVITY OF THE AIRCRAFT. THEY SAY THEY HAVE CON- VINCED THE IAF THAT THE REPLACEABLE AVIONICS PACKAGES IN THE VIGGEN RENDER IT CAPABLE OF PERIODIC MODERNIZATION WITH THE RESULT THAT IT WILL BE VIABLE UNTIL 2000 (WHICH SOUNDS A BIT FAR FETCHED TO US). OUR SWEDISH COLLEAGUE SAID THE PROPOSAL CONTINUES TO BE THAT THE INDIANS BUILD THE AIRFRAMES AND POSSIBLY SOME ENGINES OR ENGINE COMPONENTS, BUT THE SWEDES PROVIDE THE AVIONICS. SINCE THE INDIANS WANT "THE BEST", ACCORDING TO OUR SWEDISH CONTACT, THE IAF REGARDS THE AVIONICS AS VITAL. MOREOVER, THE SWEDES WOULD NOT CONSIDER SELLING THE VIGGEN WITHOUT THE "BLACK BOXES." THESE FACTORS, THE SWEDES ASSERT, GO A LONG WAY TO OFFSET THE DISADVANTAGE OF RELATIVELY HIGH INITIAL UNIT COST. ANOTHER INDUCEMENT, AS SEEN BY THE SWEDES HERE, IS THAT SAAB SCANIA HAS COMPLETED ITS SURVEY OF INDIAN EXPORTS AND CONCLUDED IT COULD MARKET SEVERAL ITEMS IN SWEDEN OR THE WEST MAKING A BARTER TYPE ARRANGEMENT AT LEAST FEASIBLE FROM THE SWEDISH POINT OF VIEW.
> 
> 4. THE SWEDISH FOREIGN MINISTER IS DUE ON A VISIT TO NEW DELHI CIRCA MARCH 1. THE SWEDES ARE BRACED FOR ANOTHER INDIAN APPEAL FOR CREDIT WHICH OUR COLLEAGUE SAYS SWEDEN WILL NOT GRANT, BUT HE DID SAY THE MINISTER WOULD STRONGLY SUPPORT THE VIGGEN SALE. OUR COLLEAGUE WOULD NOT SAY WHAT OTHER CONCESSIONS THE SWEDES MAY BE CONSIDERING.
> 
> 5. THE SWEDES HERE HAVE ALSO MADE IT QUITE CLEAR THEY UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF FAMILY INFLUENCES IN THE FINAL DECISION IN THE FIGHTER SWEEPSTAKES. OUR COLLEAGUE DESCRIBES RAJIV GANDHI IN FLATTERING TERMS, AND CONTENDS HIS TECHNICAL EXPERTISE IS OF A HIGH LEVEL. THIS MAY OR MAY NOT BE. OFFHAND WE WOULD HAVE THOUGHT A TRANSPORT PILOT NOT THE BEST EXPERT TO RELY UPON IN EVALUATING A FIGHTER PLANE, BUT THEN WE ARE SPEAKING OF A TRANSPORT PILOT WHO HAS ANOTHER AND PERHAPS MORE RELEVANT QUALIFICATION.
> 
> CONFIDENTIAL CONFIDENTIAL
> PAGE 03 NEW DE 01909 061554Z SAXBE CONFIDENTIAL
> 
> https://www.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/1976NEWDE01909_b.html
> +++



Means , no A26 in P75I? 

But there have been some deals with SAAB. One was about the self protection kit for tanks if I am not wrong.

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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Means , no A26 in P75I?
> 
> But there have been some deals with SAAB. One was about the self protection kit for tanks if I am not wrong.


we cant rule out every deal.. same like Italy where we are trying to find a solution with Marines bcz we need Naval guns and black shark Heavy water torpedoes..

Saab Frontline fighter jets is more like a taboo topic.. anything else is still being looked at.. the best Saab will get is more like a consulting role for HAL in LCA project.. Actual order of Gripen or Gripen NG is a distant dream owing to such issues which will turn political as and when such a deal being made is out in public

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## Ankit Kumar 002

PARIKRAMA said:


> the best Saab will get is more like a consulting role for HAL in LCA project..


I am not quite satisfied that we should work with SAAB on this. BAE or Dassault should be the choice. While we are at present collaborating on Hawks and getting help on IJT from BAE, it was Dssault which gave the initial momentum to our LCA. Both would be fine, but not SAAB.

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## Stephen Cohen

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> I am not quite satisfied that we should work with SAAB on this. BAE or Dassault should be the choice. While we are at present collaborating on Hawks and getting help on IJT from BAE, it was Dssault which gave the initial momentum to our LCA. Both would be fine, but not SAAB.



SAAB has the experience and the experts currently available ;
of the Single engine Gripen which is very similar to LCA

This is Domain expertise at work 

The Dassault experts who worked on Mirage 2000 --A single engine plane 
must have retired 

Dassault helped us in the early nineties when Mirage 2000 was still in production 

The people who have worked on Rafale can only help in AMCA 
that too in future

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## Ind4Ever

Rafale update : 
Rafale deal finally coming to a close and its much bigger than what is revealed ! 
.
Dassault CEO Eric Trappier in an interview recently revealed many points. 
- Most of the differences have been resolved and they look forward to sign the deal for initial 36 in coming weeks. 
-The initial deal will be about 36+18= 54 Rafales 
-Further Rafales will be built in India under Make in India. 
- First tranche of Rafales to be built in India will compose of 90 aircrafts. 
- Further Indian Navy is very serious about getting Naval Rafale 
- India will get substantial TOT.
- French companies will collaborate with Indian Companies on a number of defence projects. 
.
He further stated that Americans and Swedes are also lobbying hard but they (referring to Rafale ) have proved themselves to IAF and so are confident.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Stephen Cohen said:


> SAAB has the experience and the experts currently available ;
> of the Single engine Gripen which is very similar to LCA
> 
> This is Domain expertise at work
> 
> The Dassault experts who worked on Mirage 2000 --A single engine plane
> must have retired
> 
> Dassault helped us in the early nineties when Mirage 2000 was still in production
> 
> The people who have worked on Rafale can only help in AMCA
> that too in future



I would like to know 2 areas where we need help from SAAB?

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## Stephen Cohen

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> I would like to know 2 areas where we need help from SAAB?



Undercarriage is heavier than required and the LRU rearrangement for easier maintenance

Also some ballast has to be removed when AESA is added

So the balance will have to be adjusted


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## Ankit Kumar 002

Stephen Cohen said:


> Undercarriage is heavier than required and the LRU rearrangement for easier maintenance
> 
> Also some ballast has to be removed when AESA is added
> 
> So the balance will have to be adjusted



Aren't they themselves struggling with E/F to reduce its weight and give it the promised performance parameters ?

BAE is a better choice.


----------



## Stephen Cohen

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> BAE is a better choice



BAE makes Typhoon ( Twin engined ) and Hawks ( Trainer )

Nothing in between ; LCA is another category 

LCA has the same engine as Gripen --GE 404 

Yet the Gripen is a wonderful aircraft 

Otherwise if SAAB does not work out 
Let us see whether Lockheed martin helps us on this

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Stephen Cohen said:


> BAE makes Typhoon ( Twin engined ) and Hawks ( Trainer )
> 
> Nothing in between ; LCA is another category
> 
> LCA has the same engine as Gripen --GE 404
> 
> Yet the Gripen is a wonderful aircraft
> 
> Otherwise if SAAB does not work out
> Let us see whether Lockheed martin helps us on this



If , something happens to mk1a project, who will benefit the most ? 

That's why , we need to keep LCA and SAAB away.


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## Abingdonboy

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Aren't they themselves struggling with E/F to reduce its weight and give it the promised performance parameters ?
> 
> BAE is a better choice.





Stephen Cohen said:


> BAE makes Typhoon ( Twin engined ) and Hawks ( Trainer )
> 
> Nothing in between ; LCA is another category
> 
> LCA has the same engine as Gripen --GE 404
> 
> Yet the Gripen is a wonderful aircraft
> 
> Otherwise if SAAB does not work out
> Let us see whether Lockheed martin helps us on this



The obvious choice is Dassualt.

1) SAAB have little incentive to develop the LCA as it is a rival to the Gripen
2) BAE have very little industrial ties with India (other than Hawk) and aren't really that invested in aerospace (relatively) these days.
3) Dassualt has extensive expereince in this domain, has a naval variant (SAAB and BAE don't) and, oh look, are coming to the Indian market in a big way.

It would be absolutely criminal to not take advantadge of the Rafale buy for other projects, one of the selling points of the MMRCA was industrial benefits was it not?

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## knight11

Stephen Cohen said:


> Undercarriage is heavier than required and the LRU rearrangement for easier maintenance



Undercarriage/landing gear was not designed by SAAB, but by UK.

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## knight11

*DASSAULT AVIATION CHIEF ERIC TRAPPIER HOPES TO SEAL ONE OR TWO RAFALE DEALS IN 2016: REPORT*
*MONDAY, APRIL 25, 2016 BY INDIANDEFENSE NEWS*





*PARIS:* Dassault Aviation hopes to seal "one or two" contracts to sell its Rafale planes this year and this would include a much-heralded deal to sell 36 Rafale fighter jets to India, its chief executive said an interview.
"One can hope for on one or two contracts this year, including India," Eric Trappier was reported as saying by magazine Challenges on its Challenges.fr web site.
Negotiations for India to buy 36 French Rafale fighter jets are nearing the finish line, the Indian defence ministry said last week, with sources saying the price will be set at around $9 billion.
"Significantly progress has been made and I sense a true will to reach an agreement, possibly in the coming weeks," Trappier said of the India talks.
Both sides had hoped to wrap up the strategic order during President Francois Hollande's visit for Republic Day celebration in January, but hard bargaining on price stalled a final result.
Dassault Aviation said in March it was working on deals to also sell Rafale jets to Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates.
Source>>

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## PARIKRAMA

[QUOTE"]Rafale update :
Rafale deal finally coming to a close and its much bigger than what is revealed !
.
Dassault CEO Eric Trappier in an interview recently revealed many points.
- Most of the differences have been resolved and they look forward to sign the deal for initial 36 in coming weeks.
-The initial deal will be about 36+18= 54 Rafales
-Further Rafales will be built in India under Make in India.
- First tranche of Rafales to be built in India will compose of 90 aircrafts.
- Further Indian Navy is very serious about getting Naval Rafale
- India will get substantial TOT.
- French companies will collaborate with Indian Companies on a number of defence projects.
.
He further stated that Americans and Swedes are also lobbying hard but they (referring to Rafale ) have proved themselves to IAF and so are confident.[/QUOTE]

Thats the source





https://www.facebook.com/IADnews/posts/1090064614404926:0

The 54 figure includes the follow on added part





and about IN part





All in facebook page ,,,


++
Seems they follow Rafale thread a lot in different forums!!!

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## WhyCry

Abingdonboy said:


> The MKI is still (by some margin) the most capable fighter in that part of the world but the Rafale will displace it from that spot when it enters service.



I do not agree with this statement as this is the dilemma to US and other top 10 defense budget countries. Its not that who is better than the other than which roles are performed by which.

Su-30 MKI are agile and proficient in air superiority. This is their main role.

Dassualt Rafale is basically a multi-role fighter (jack of traits and master of none). Its mainly known for its air to ground role.

So even in war or any skirmish, the first step is denial of air space which will be handled by Su 30's and then followed by targeted ground attacks including destroying airstrip and arms cash followed by next objectives. They complement each other and are not meant to replace each other.

Currently for the air superiority role (commonly refereed to as dog-fighters), there are only F-14(retired), F-15, F-22, Su-27, Su-30, Su 35 are the most famous platforms.

France had never had a air superiority fighter and have always relied on other sources to projects its power including submersible, floating, UK, EU and NATO (last 3 are political).

Now lets jump to the first line of my conversation about dilemma. The issue is that US had exported F15's (ASR) and F16(MR)'s to its allies previously. Now with F22 (ASR) they has put a ban on the export of arms and technology and are only offering F35's which are for air to ground, interceptor and bombing support missions.

Just to troll a little, while french compare Rafale to Eurofighter and show their admiration. I usually think of WWII when french were holding the trenches and asking British(at that time) to save them.


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## PARIKRAMA

In line with what i have posted before




Thats 24th April 2016
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-227#post-8261847


thanks to @dadeechi for this news

https://defence.pk/threads/exclusiv...r-soon-for-any-private-strategic-deal.428459/
The article says

The Cabinet Committee on Securities (CCS) will grant its final approval on the inclusion of Strategic Partners (SPs), a model that the government plans to enter into with private firms in critical and high-end defence projects like building submarines, helicopters and fighter planes requiring long term commitments, both ways.
"We are expecting to finalise the model by May end and there could be few more meetings, as needed," a senior defence ministry official said. "The final paper --- after making constructive improvements --- will be taken up for finance approval and then put up to the CCS," he added. (DM MP said)
"A regulator will be put in place as existing policies procedures and mind sets are rigid and do not allow flexibility needed for technology intensive programs needing pragmatic view in contracting and monitoring," 
On queries by the industry, Parrikar said P75(I) submarines, helicopters and fighter aircrafts could be the segments that will be looked into for selection of SPs. 
Light Combat Aircraft MK2 itself could be pursued under the SP route. "With multiple helicopter and fighter programs there could be one or two strategic partners in either,"


As you can see one by one each of the stumbling blocks for MII is getting cleared..

Once strategic partnership model is out, within 3 months time, you will first hear


Selection of Indian Partner for Dassault (its a bit of a surprise!!!)
Coming down for MII part formal offer which is actually an extension as certain important points are already in IGA
and formal declaration by GOI after CCS approval for Rafale MII by max Dec 2016/ March 2017

Expect a flurry of reports, analysis and media campaign .. all in vain.. bcz GOI is cutting a solid deal as i said earlier..

PS: A smart one will spot a very important month 'MAY' .. Join the dots a bit.. You will see whats cooking and how government is making sure, India get a solid deal

@Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @MilSpec @Taygibay @Vauban

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> In line with what i have posted before
> View attachment 302659
> 
> Thats 24th April 2016
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-227#post-8261847
> 
> 
> thanks to @dadeechi for this news
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/exclusiv...r-soon-for-any-private-strategic-deal.428459/
> The article says
> 
> The Cabinet Committee on Securities (CCS) will grant its final approval on the inclusion of Strategic Partners (SPs), a model that the government plans to enter into with private firms in critical and high-end defence projects like building submarines, helicopters and fighter planes requiring long term commitments, both ways.
> "We are expecting to finalise the model by May end and there could be few more meetings, as needed," a senior defence ministry official said. "The final paper --- after making constructive improvements --- will be taken up for finance approval and then put up to the CCS," he added. (DM MP said)
> "A regulator will be put in place as existing policies procedures and mind sets are rigid and do not allow flexibility needed for technology intensive programs needing pragmatic view in contracting and monitoring,"
> On queries by the industry, Parrikar said P75(I) submarines, helicopters and fighter aircrafts could be the segments that will be looked into for selection of SPs.
> Light Combat Aircraft MK2 itself could be pursued under the SP route. "With multiple helicopter and fighter programs there could be one or two strategic partners in either,"
> As you can see one by one each of the stumbling blocks for MII is getting cleared..
> 
> Once strategic partnership model is out, within 3 months time, you will first hear
> 
> 
> Selection of Indian Partner for Dassault (its a bit of a surprise!!!)
> Coming down for MII part formal offer which is actually an extension as certain important points are already in IGA
> and formal declaration by GOI after CCS approval for Rafale MII by max Dec 2016/ March 2017
> 
> Expect a flurry of reports, analysis and media campaign .. all in vain.. bcz GOI is cutting a solid deal as i said earlier..
> 
> PS: A smart one will spot a very important month 'MAY' .. Join the dots a bit.. You will see whats cooking and how government is making sure, India get a solid deal
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @MilSpec @Taygibay @Vauban



Hello Sir

I was thinking ; Modi is going to US in June
Why not drop in Paris for signing the Rafale deal ie the First Part of 36 + 18

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Stephen Cohen said:


> Hello Sir
> 
> I was thinking ; Modi is going to US in June
> Why not drop in Paris for signing the Rafale deal ie the First Part of 36 + 18


The signing generally is in the buying country.

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## Stephen Cohen

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> The signing generally is in the buying country.



I did nt know that ; Anyway exceptions can always be made

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## kaykay

BC ye Rafale deal na hua birbal ki khichhdi ho gayi.....aab to sign kar do..

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> a model that the government plans to enter into with private firms in critical and high-end defence projects *like building submarines, helicopters and fighter planes* requiring long term commitments, both ways.


What I think is interesting here is that France is in a postion to scoop up a considerable amount of (/most) of these deals. Submarines? More Scorpenes are a certainty and it is speculated France could be partnering to help in the domestic SSN class. Helicopters? Airbus is (by FAR) the most active in the rotary wing domain under Make in India having already tied up with Mahindra to creat an "aerospace city" centred around the production of Airbus Military helicopters (most likely Panther and H225M), they are now just waiting for the orders. Figher planes? Well, we all know about that...


The under currents are pretty strong if you are perceptive enough and yet almost no media publication is reporting on what is quite a signifcant emerging strategic partnership between France and India.

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> What I think is interesting here is that France is in a postion to scoop up a considerable amount of (/most) of these deals. Submarines? More Scorpenes are a certainty and it is speculated France could be partnering to help in the domestic SSN class. Helicopters? Airbus is (by FAR) the most active in the rotary wing domain under Make in India having already tied up with Mahindra to creat an "aerospace city" centred around the production of Airbus Military helicopters (most likely Panther and H225M), they are now just waiting for the orders. Figher planes? Well, we all know about that...
> 
> 
> The under currents are pretty strong if you are perceptive enough and yet almost no media publication is reporting on what is quite a signifcant emerging strategic partnership between France and India.



You my good friend caught the main points as i said 'May' month hint is very strong to see what more will come on offer..

Hearing not only falcon jets but some 10+ other fields where dynamic technologies are getting shared from French side besides the Rafale deal..

Its in a manner where the basket of India France Trade will very much multiply aggressively and France will get a growing market for its industries in a assured manner yet India wont be victimized with exorbitant price and there will be credible actual skill development of local industry.

I am of the firm opinion, Mk2 LCA project can be lapped by Dassault if they are a bit smart and position them well with their experience and long history of single engined jets.. Something which they now dont have post Mirages.

If Dassault gets LCA Mk2 project going and make it a success, you can stand assured, not only the relationship will be strengthened between both nations, Rafales and its NG Rafale Program will be staying with IAF and IN for minimum 6-7 decades easily... of course with repeated orders and program evolution..

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## Dash

PARIKRAMA said:


> You my good friend caught the main points as i said 'May' month hint is very strong to see what more will come on offer..
> 
> Hearing not only falcon jets but some 10+ other fields where dynamic technologies are getting shared from French side besides the Rafale deal..
> 
> Its in a manner where the basket of India France Trade will very much multiply aggressively and France will get a growing market for its industries in a assured manner yet India wont be victimized with exorbitant price and there will be credible actual skill development of local industry.
> 
> I am of the firm opinion, Mk2 LCA project can be lapped by Dassault if they are a bit smart and position them well with their experience and long history of single engined jets.. Something which they now dont have post Mirages.
> 
> If Dassault gets LCA Mk2 project going and make it a success, you can stand assured, not only the relationship will be strengthened between both nations, Rafales and its NG Rafale Program will be staying with IAF and IN for minimum 6-7 decades easily... of course with repeated orders and program evolution..



You and @Abingdonboy the French might give some consultation buy they may not own up LCA and drive it to make it better coz it might give them competition although a single engine plane but still a headache like Gripane is for them?

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## Abingdonboy

Dash said:


> You and @Abingdonboy the French might give some consultation buy they may not own up LCA and drive it to make it better coz it might give them competition although a single engine plane but still a headache like Gripane is for them?


I don't think Dassualt will get that involved in the LCA project but they will be a VERY useful technical partner that I hope works very closely with ADA and HAL (needed to a lesser degree with the latter).

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## PARIKRAMA

Dash said:


> You and @Abingdonboy the French might give some consultation buy they may not own up LCA and drive it to make it better coz it might give them competition although a single engine plane but still a headache like Gripane is for them?


No doubt but IAF will operate close to 1/3rd of its fleet via LCA program anyways.. They dont have an option and successive governments will make sure that LCA will reach a final figure of 300+ bcz its our own jet.

The question is the assimilation of some strong partner as a consultant or as a co development or as a technical assist partner.. Instead of going for Saab, to bring in commanlity and use the expertise of Dassault makes more sense..

Of course everything has a price and a factor of future risk emanating from such a product as competitor

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## Dash

PARIKRAMA said:


> No doubt but IAF will operate close to 1/3rd of its fleet via LCA program anyways.. They dont have an option and successive governments will make sure that LCA will reach a final figure of 300+ bcz its our own jet.
> 
> The question is the assimilation of some strong partner as a consultant or as a co development or as a technical assist partner.. Instead of going for Saab, to bring in commanlity and use the expertise of Dassault makes more sense..
> 
> Of course everything has a price and a factor of future risk emanating from such a product as competitor



Make sense but its not that easy for them nor us to come to terms while doing it for LCA.

It might make sense for AMCA considering French don't have a 5th gen plane and our AURA might get some assistance or some consulting.
But that's just a pessimistic me

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## BON PLAN

kaykay said:


> BC ye Rafale deal na hua birbal ki khichhdi ho gayi.....aab to sign kar do..



gjjgff iuyui ghhgsufsdq jhk MICKEY MOUSE reree gsggdfg 

In english please !

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## Spectre

BON PLAN said:


> gjjgff iuyui ghhgsufsdq jhk MICKEY MOUSE reree gsggdfg
> 
> In english please !



He is expressing his impatience at the delays (in very colorful language) ca va?

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## ShankaraBharanam

BON PLAN said:


> gjjgff iuyui ghhgsufsdq jhk MICKEY MOUSE reree gsggdfg
> 
> In english please !

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## BON PLAN

Spectre said:


> He is expressing his impatience at the delays (in very colorful language) ca va?



OUI, ca va bien. Merçi !


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## Spectre

BON PLAN said:


> OUI, ca va bien. Merçi !


 De rien



Abingdonboy said:


> What I think is interesting here is that France is in a postion to scoop up a considerable amount of (/most) of these deals. Submarines? More Scorpenes are a certainty and it is speculated France could be partnering to help in the domestic SSN class. Helicopters? Airbus is (by FAR) the most active in the rotary wing domain under Make in India having already tied up with Mahindra to creat an "aerospace city" centred around the production of Airbus Military helicopters (most likely Panther and H225M), they are now just waiting for the orders. Figher planes? Well, we all know about that...
> 
> 
> The under currents are pretty strong if you are perceptive enough and yet almost no media publication is reporting on what is quite a signifcant emerging strategic partnership between France and India.



I was very disappointed to learn that France has explicitly singled out India when it promised that none of the tech of Australian Barricudas would be transferred to *India*. So I see no collaboration happening on the naval front. In addition French Marketing was extremely crass in Australia where they bad mouthed their own propellers subs which coincidently India is buying.

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## Abingdonboy

Spectre said:


> I was very disappointed to learn that France has explicitly singled out India when it promised that none of the tech of Australian Barricudas would be transferred to *India*. So I see no collaboration happening on the naval front. In addition French Marketing was extremely crass in Australia where they bad mouthed their own propellers subs which coincidently India is buying.


Indeed, I found it really odd that Australia had insisted on this.


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## Spectre

Abingdonboy said:


> Indeed, I found it really odd that Australia had insisted on this.



Could be since the IP was being developed from Australia, they wanted exclusivity or their share in future sales. Kind of like UAE F-16 deal. @Taygibay 

What I specially took umbrage at was French said propeller subs will get outdated soon, the same propeller subs which they are selling to India.


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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> Indeed, I found it really odd that Australia had insisted on this.



Is this true


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## Spectre

Stephen Cohen said:


> Is this true



It is, all submarine cooperation with French as a result is likely dead in future.


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## Stephen Cohen

Spectre said:


> It is, all submarine cooperation with French as a result is likely dead in future.



So no SSN technology as some reports were coming


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## Spectre

Stephen Cohen said:


> So no SSN technology as some reports were coming



No Barricuda tech which is SSN in French and the modified version for Australia is conventional.


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## BON PLAN

Spectre said:


> What I specially took umbrage at was French said propeller subs will get outdated soon


Are you sure? What kind of propeller?


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## Spectre

BON PLAN said:


> Are you sure? What kind of propeller?



_DCNS said in its pitch that the diesel electric Barracuda would utilise a conventional pump jet propulsion system that would be more quiet than "obsolete propeller technology".

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-...idder-must-meet-australia's-endurance/7347034
_
This is a gauche statement as French are marketing these same "obsolete propeller technology" to India with their scorpenes most of which are yet to be *even commissioned. *In addition they are pitching to India for extending the order.

The whole thing leaves a bitter taste.

@Picdelamirand-oil may be you can offer some clarity, may be I have misunderstood the references.


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## #hydra#

BON PLAN said:


> Are you sure? What kind of propeller?


Now a days big players are moving towards pumpjet propulsion for subs, which is having less noice level compared to propeller driven boats.


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## Abingdonboy

Spectre said:


> It is, all submarine cooperation with French as a result is likely dead in future.


Follow on Scorpenes will still be ordered.


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## Spectre

Abingdonboy said:


> Follow on Scorpenes will still be ordered.



When according to the OEM they are obsolete! God Save India


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## Taygibay

Spectre said:


> Could be since the IP was being developed from Australia, they wanted exclusivity or their share in future sales. Kind of like UAE F-16 deal. @Taygibay
> 
> What I specially took umbrage at was French said propeller subs will get outdated soon, the same propeller subs which they are selling to India.



OK! Let's separate three things!
1- OZ had the exclusivity part in the tender's objectives :
"The Government insists the evaluation provided the "information required to select DCNS as the most suitable international partner *to develop a regionally-superior future submarine* to meet our unique national security requirements, as detailed in the 2016 Defence White Paper.""
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-27/barnes-what-are-the-submarines-really-protecting/7361554​2- There is substantial ToT involved as public opinion would not accept full offshore construction.
The last subs will be partially made in Oz. But the transfer is for the Shortfin Barracuda! There
are other models in that family.

3- Yes, proprietary pump jet tech is going to replace old school propellers. Saying so is thus a com-
mercial argument of worth and DCNS knows it and uses it.
http://dcnsgroup.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/DCNS-SEA1000-Insert-FINAL_low-res.pdf
The stealth aspects are part of the deal.

I get the bad taste this could leave in an Bharati mouth but that's business! Do consider however
that India is rumoured to be getting our help in AIP through the strategic partnership. This alone will
completely change the operating ways of IN. And then there are the nuclear heaters ...

At this point, it might be simpler to take note of what happened and work to counter it
Find another pump jet source or develop one yourselves. After all, just as the sale to OZ
doesn't forbid getting a different Barracuda, just order it under the name SMX Ocean,
http://aviationweek.com/blog/not-just-concept-smx-ocean-dcns , it cannot bar help for a
pump jet study with say L&T if the result is local and branded Sacred Swimming Cow!

There are always workarounds, always!

Besides, your Navy and that of Pakistan share French submarine equipment.
Shouldn't that worry you more than Oz?

GTG' have a great day all, Tay.

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## Spectre

Taygibay said:


> OK! Let's separate three things!
> 1- OZ had the exclusivity part in the tender's objectives :
> "The Government insists the evaluation provided the "information required to select DCNS as the most suitable international partner *to develop a regionally-superior future submarine* to meet our unique national security requirements, as detailed in the 2016 Defence White Paper.""
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-27/barnes-what-are-the-submarines-really-protecting/7361554​2- There is substantial ToT involved as public opinion would not accept full offshore construction.
> The last subs will be partially made in Oz. But the transfer is for the Shortfin Barracuda! There
> are other models in that family.
> 
> 3- Yes, proprietary pump jet tech is going to replace old school propellers. Saying so is thus a com-
> mercial argument of worth and DCNS knows it and uses it.
> http://dcnsgroup.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/DCNS-SEA1000-Insert-FINAL_low-res.pdf
> The stealth aspects are part of the deal.
> 
> I get the bad taste this could leave in an Bharati mouth but that's business! Do consider however
> that India is rumoured to be getting our help in AIP through the strategic partnership. This alone will
> completely change the operating ways of IN. And then there are the nuclear heaters ...
> 
> At this point, it might be simpler to take note of what happened and work to counter it
> Find another pump jet source or develop one yourselves. After all, just as the sale to OZ
> doesn't forbid getting a different Barracuda, just order it under the name SMX Ocean,
> http://aviationweek.com/blog/not-just-concept-smx-ocean-dcns , it cannot bar help for a
> pump jet study with say L&T if the result is local and branded Sacred Swimming Cow!
> 
> There are always workarounds, always!
> 
> Besides, your Navy and that of Pakistan share French submarine equipment.
> Shouldn't that worry you more than Oz?
> 
> GTG' have a great day all, Tay.



Fair enough, as I said - I certainly don't fault French, this is business and DCNS would have gone all in for a contract of this magnitude. I would also take this opportunity to advice Indian fanboys to temper expectations when it comes to speculative side benefits from Rafale deal, keeping in view it is the size of the deal and probable profits which would dictate size and scope of ToT. 

I am also sure, MoD officials would be closely observing the Oz deal and would take all factors into considerations including restricted access when it comes to expansion of conventional sub contract.

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## Abingdonboy

Spectre said:


> When according to the OEM they are obsolete! God Save India


Salesmen will say anything to secure a sale, I wouldn't take it personally but it is a pretty unfortunate thing to have said.



Spectre said:


> keeping in view it is the size of the deal and probable profits which would dictate size and scope of ToT.


Right, and when you look at the potential size of the Rafale demand in India (easily >250 units if you count IAF and IN needs by 2025) then there is a great deal of scope to receive signifcant "side benefits" from the Rafale deal with France.

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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> Salesmen will say anything to secure a sale, I wouldn't take it personally but it is a pretty unfortunate thing to have said.
> 
> 
> Right, and when you look at the potential size of the Rafale demand in India (easily >250 units if you count IAF and IN needs by 2025) then there is a great deal of scope to receive signifcant "side benefits" from the Rafale deal with France.



We need to get this Pump jet propulsion technology some how
Russian Borei class submarines have them 

UK and US too have it but we will not get it from them

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## ShankaraBharanam

This discussion on pump propulsion is pointless. 

Pump propulsion is used only for high speed submarines i.e. Nuclear submarines. 

This is because the faster rotation of the blades produces more sound due to the collapsing of the cavitation bubble. Pump Propulsion reduces the sound but also takes a heave toll on the power. It reduces the Submarine power by 15-20 % and decrease the sound by similar percentage. 

Conventional SSK have much slower speed and hence lower sound by the propellers. It will always be quieter than the SSN. Besides SSK cannot afford any more reduction in power due to the Pump Propulsion.

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## WhyCry

Spectre said:


> No Barricuda tech which is SSN in French and the modified version for Australia is conventional.


I am not too sure that would be easy. I knew french are going to win once Japan was out. Japan wanted to make then in Japan itself which went against them. Japanese had the more stealthy and advanced sub hands down.


(A personal comment) But is a P75 ride for Australia.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Dev Destroyer said:


> I am not too sure that would be easy. I knew french are going to win once Japan was out. Japan wanted to make then in Japan itself which went against them. Japanese had the more stealthy and advanced sub hands down.
> 
> 
> (A personal comment) But is a P75 ride for Australia.



Hi, it was always Type216>Diesel Baracuda >Soryu
And it will be untill the Japanese come up with their promised lithium ion batteries.

Scorpenes are " very good " SSK today , to replace and augment our Type209s. No ifs and buts here, we got what we ordered. 

What we need to do is , "STICK WITH OUR OWN TORPEDOES and AIP " on it. 

The French are developing I think something named F21 torpedo which is touted as the best torpedo ever, better than Spearfish etc..... 

I am not pointing towards TOT or F21, i was just making a point we can get them (Friendly help from French) to improve ours!

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## BON PLAN

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Hi, it was always Type216>Diesel Baracuda >Soryu
> And it will be untill the Japanese come up with their promised lithium ion batteries.
> 
> Scorpenes are " very good " SSK today , to replace and augment our Type209s. No ifs and buts here, we got what we ordered.
> 
> What we need to do is , "STICK WITH OUR OWN TORPEDOES and AIP " on it.
> 
> The French are developing I think something named F21 torpedo which is touted as the best torpedo ever, better than Spearfish etc.....
> 
> I am not pointing towards TOT or F21, i was just making a point we can get them (Friendly help from French) to improve ours!


F21 is again on drawing board I think.


----------



## Picdelamirand-oil

*Rafale deal: Law Ministry has observations, being addressed, says Parrikar
Ajay Banerjee
Tribune News Service
New Delhi, May 3*






*Rafale multi-role combat aircraft from Dassault Aviation of France 
takes off at Yelahanka Airforce Station in Bangalore. AFP file photo*

Even as the Ministry of Defence has agreed to the pricing of the 36 Rafale fighter jets from Dassault Aviation France, the Ministry of Law and Justice has made certain observations that are being incorporated in under-negotiation Inter-Governmental Agreement between India and France.

The price as accepted by India is expected to be 7.89 Billion Euros or Rs 60,000 crore and that has been largely agreed upon.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar informed the Rajya Sabha in written reply on Tuesday: “Ministry of Law & Justice have made certain observations and the same will be adequately taken into account while finalizing the IGA, which is still under negotiations”.

An Indian negotiating team has been constituted to negotiate the terms and conditions of the procurement of 36 Rafale jets and recommend a draft agreement. The meetings of the Indian negotiations team with the French side are underway, Parrikar’s reply said.

As per the India-France Joint statement issued by the two countries during the Prime Minister’s visit to France in April last year, Government of India conveyed to the Government of France that in view of the critical operational necessity to have more fighter jets for the IAF.

Both the sides have agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) for supply of the aircraft.

Rafale deal: Law Ministry has observations, being addressed, says Parrikar

_*I don't understand well: The IGA was signed between India and France at the upper level. It was said to be completed except for the price. Now the price is agreed but we have to take into account the remarks of Ministry of law and justice? So signature of India representative has no value?*_

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## Stephen Cohen

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> I don't understand well: The IGA was signed between India and France at the upper level. It was said to be completed except for the price. Now the price is agreed but we have to take into account the remarks of Ministry of law and justice? So signature of India representative has no value?



IT was not signed ; but BROADLY agreed to

It already contains some pending clauses ; which are now being finalised

A large agreement contains Many Articles and clauses; Sections and sub sections

Given the Deadline of 26 January we had to sign on the Terms which had been agreed to
till that date


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## Abingdonboy

@PARIKRAMA

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## Picdelamirand-oil

*And if the Mirage 2000 also had the AASM missile*



> These multi-year orders would increase the rate of production of a new version of the AASM. Above all, they would bring down the unit cost of weaponry, far more expensive than competing products. Particularly in relation to GBU-49 bombs widely used on American theaters of operations. "With these orders, *we can be very close to the price of the GBU-49*", are we told La Tribune.



https://translate.google.fr/transla...aussi-du-missile-aasm-562087.html&prev=search

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## Taygibay

OK! So GoI aks for the AASM to go on its Mirages 2000 as part of Rafale deal,
Safran automatically gets its export doors open ( and AdlA says Hey, me too! )
and thanks India by setting up a full production line right at start of MII 90 order
thus lowering further the AASM's price so it can equip all Bharati fighters ...

Is that what you were hinting at, Pic mon brave? 

Good day all, Tay.

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> @PARIKRAMA




There is virtually a complete mismatch on what's the reality going on versus what's being quoted in public. 

What DM MP is publically stating is a damage control exercise of what BJP Twitter account jumped the gun and announced with an infographic.

There is no logic at all for his response.

If you check I have said one official suggested to MP that deal be postponed to next year jan-march timeline and we can release the money in april-june 2017. And MP rejected the same.

Now it seems he is being clearly told that he may have to be shifted to Goa state unit for state elections due to non performance of existing leadership. And in his place perhaps a very very familiar name will come in.. Can't reveal the name but I have mixed feelings with the name being suggested...

It seems DM MP now wants to wait for the Cabinet level decision on the deal and wants to handover the reign plus onus of decision to his successor...

Surely this won't cut much ice with PM NaMo who is very keen to showcase induction of kalavari, Arihant and Rafale deal in 2 years performance report card. (Also lined up is aridhaman ceremony for PM to be done in coming months.)

The deal is already done and dusted at political level and Strategic partnership things are already underway. Thus all this is a smokescreen really.

Better wait for some days and few weeks.. Things would be much clearer..

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## Taygibay

PARIKRAMA said:


> There is virtually a complete mismatch on what's the reality going on versus what's being quoted in public.



Now, PariK mate, why would you say that?
http://sputniknews.com/military/20160503/1039015814/french-rafele-hundle.html

 Tay.

P.S. Do note the Raf*e*le... for that's a new one AFAIK; so close to reality.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> There is virtually a complete mismatch on what's the reality going on versus what's being quoted in public.
> 
> What DM MP is publically stating is a damage control exercise of what BJP Twitter account jumped the gun and announced with an infographic.
> 
> There is no logic at all for his response.
> 
> If you check I have said one official suggested to MP that deal be postponed to next year jan-march timeline and we can release the money in april-june 2017. And MP rejected the same.
> 
> Now it seems he is being clearly told that he may have to be shifted to Goa state unit for state elections due to non performance of existing leadership. And in his place perhaps a very very familiar name will come in.. Can't reveal the name but I have mixed feelings with the name being suggested...
> 
> It seems DM MP now wants to wait for the Cabinet level decision on the deal and wants to handover the reign plus onus of decision to his successor...
> 
> Surely this won't cut much ice with PM NaMo who is very keen to showcase induction of kalavari, Arihant and Rafale deal in 2 years performance report card. (Also lined up is aridhaman ceremony for PM to be done in coming months.)
> 
> The deal is already done and dusted at political level and Strategic partnership things are already underway. Thus all this is a smokescreen really.
> 
> Better wait for some days and few weeks.. Things would be much clearer..


= more delays...............great

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## egodoc222

PARIKRAMA said:


> There is virtually a complete mismatch on what's the reality going on versus what's being quoted in public.
> 
> What DM MP is publically stating is a damage control exercise of what BJP Twitter account jumped the gun and announced with an infographic.
> 
> There is no logic at all for his response.
> 
> If you check I have said one official suggested to MP that deal be postponed to next year jan-march timeline and we can release the money in april-june 2017. And MP rejected the same.
> 
> Now it seems he is being clearly told that he may have to be shifted to Goa state unit for state elections due to non performance of existing leadership. And in his place perhaps a very very familiar name will come in.. Can't reveal the name but I have mixed feelings with the name being suggested...
> 
> It seems DM MP now wants to wait for the Cabinet level decision on the deal and wants to handover the reign plus onus of decision to his successor...
> 
> Surely this won't cut much ice with PM NaMo who is very keen to showcase induction of kalavari, Arihant and Rafale deal in 2 years performance report card. (Also lined up is aridhaman ceremony for PM to be done in coming months.)
> 
> The deal is already done and dusted at political level and Strategic partnership things are already underway. Thus all this is a smokescreen really.
> 
> Better wait for some days and few weeks.. Things would be much clearer..


Is it gonna be subramaniyam swamy?

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## Agent_47

They used AND not OR, interesting

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> = more delays...............great



Well now I am hearing a very different view

NaMo is visiting DC. Prez Obama and some influential people are gng to say we made Pakistan pay F16 from their own pocket so they won't buy it. (According to news i have government of Pakistan has an excess borrowing of USD 1.5Bn in last 3 months.. The exact usage is ambiguous.. So it's nt in a position to finance new purchases. It's in fact not able to finance China related projects also where new Chinese loans require margin contribution from government)

So US folks are going ahead with again the F16 F35 plan which I had shared before..

It seems DM MP is showing carrot by saying Rafale deal not done.

US folks doing the same saying look we are not providing coalition funds...

There is a chance of quid pro quo here that PM NaMo may agree for something to purchase from USA. Not necessarily F16 but something to keep US MIC happy.. Particularly LM.. Who knows .. 36 F35s may be!!!

It may be teens or rather some critical tech at substantial cost or something else which may be given to make US ppl feel happy of siding with India and the new so called geo political posturing..

May be the new LSA/LEMOA may be agreed..

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Well now I am hearing a very different view
> 
> NaMo is visiting DC. Prez Obama and some influential people are gng to say we made Pakistan pay F16 from their own pocket so they won't buy it. (According to news i have government of Pakistan has an excess borrowing of USD 1.5Bn in last 3 months.. The exact usage is ambiguous.. So it's nt in a position to finance new purchases. It's in fact not able to finance China related projects also where new Chinese loans require margin contribution from government)
> 
> So US folks are going ahead with again the F16 F35 plan which I had shared before..
> 
> It seems DM MP is showing carrot by saying Rafale deal not done.
> 
> US folks doing the same saying look we are not providing coalition funds...
> 
> There is a chance of quid pro quo here that PM NaMo may agree for something to purchase from USA. Not necessarily F16 but something to keep US MIC happy.. Particularly LM.. Who knows .. 36 F35s may be!!!
> 
> It may be teens or rather some critical tech at substantial cost or something else which may be given to make US ppl feel happy of siding with India and the new so called geo political posturing..
> 
> May be the new LSA/LEMOA may be agreed..


Yet more dithering, isn't it? This PM/DM are too busy trying to be the "smart" guys and trying to prove how amazing they are by getting XYZ when in reality not a single new jet deal has been signed for more than a decade now. Do they even have a plan or are they simply going from country to country with a begging bowl? Modi goes to France, 36 Rafale deal is proposed, Hollande visits and IGA is signed, Modi visits the US and now that takes precedent? 


The F-16 and F-35 just don't fit in with the IAF nor their proposed force structure.


Modi will go to the US and return empty handed, I don't know why these bufoons are pandering to the US when they have made it clear that they are not offering the same ToT and industrial benefits as the French. if they are being duped by the US dumping the CSF funding of the F-16 sale to Pakistan more fool on them.


The IAF's decade long wait for a MMRCA goes on..... 

If this Govt is so intent on kissing Washington a$$ then get them to agree to setting up a C-130XJ line in India, why does it all have to be about fighters? Why is Modi backing India into a zero sum game with the French on oneside and the US on the other?

And what about the MII fighter line? We have been discussing the 250++ Rafale demand for the past few weeks on here but that is now gone?


This is all very disappointing bro.

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## randomradio

Rumours are rumours. 

Rafale deal is happening.

LSA doesn't affect the fighter deal.

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## Jai Bharat

Rumors are indeed rumors.

I'll take everything with a grain of salt until they are actually signed. I doubt India is going to buy F-16s owned by Paks or get locked into the F-35, which has a massive backlog of orders and might not even be possible to deliver to the IAF until post-2025. Not to mention all the problems associated with the program.

US has been staunchly anti-Indian since before Independence and will continue to be so in the near future. They cannot be trusted and their next likely US president, Hilary Clinton, is also part of this anti-Indian brigade. 

US South Asian policy is officially to delay Indian military and scientific developments and keep Pakistan at some level of parity through subsidies and Foreign Aid. Let's not forget about how they shut-off GPS during Kargil to hinder Indian troop movements, they could easily do such damage again in another hypothetical war if India were to purchase their kill-switch ridden military exports.

If US wants to change the relation, let them take the first step. Have them offer something massively beneficial to India with no strings attached. Else they should be avoided for military purchases.

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## Stephen Cohen

@PARIKRAMA Hello Sir 

I wanted to ask about Two things 

1 Who will be the Next defence minister 

2 After the Agusta scam 
the government is looking into the Pilatus and MMRCA Tendering and bidding process 

So will Rafale deal get stuck up again

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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> @PARIKRAMA Hello Sir
> 
> I wanted to ask about Two things
> 
> 1 Who will be the Next defence minister
> 
> 2 After the Agusta scam
> the government is looking into the Pilatus and MMRCA Tendering and bidding process
> 
> So will Rafale deal get stuck up again



Hello my good friend,
First part, I cannot disclose bcz it's something with which I will be traced easily..

I can discuss the options which includes 

shifting FM to handle the defense portfolio
Raising a recently elected RS member to DM level. 
Raising the recently elected RS member to some other portfolio and a portfolio reshuffle based on successful track record of some ministers. This list includes good name like prabhu - railways and Gadkari - transport overall, power minister piyush goyal etc
Some junior ministers as well as other well know good man managers are also considered.
Internally Rao Inderjith Singh is also considered but his experience at national level is limited but that gentleman knows what is what as of now.
VK Singh name is doing rounds but that could be a mismatch owing to the fact that focus is improving air and naval power and realigning army with far more offensive firepower at individual level and deploying the reserve units to other forces to increase efficiency.
Some folks also wants to wait for July when 50+ new RS member are coming.. So there is a chance someone may handle it for sometime or 2-3 months as a caretaker DM.
So it's a bit of dicey proposition. S.Swamy name is gaining support but idea of him as DM does nt cut much ice with me as perhaps his one point agenda against Congress family will not be in sync with this role..

If you ask my personal opinion I had backed 3 guys including Inderjith singh but i had advised and cautioned against moving MP back to Goa. If BJP is clearly inclined as building MP up as a successor to NaMo based on performance, responsibility and mass appeal, then moving him back to Goa unit will backfire massively.

PM NaMo will fight max upto 2024 where in 2023 he will formally announce his successor name in public and build a image plus consensus. Thus MP moving back will backfire and open gates for other folks who may have mass appeal but also carry certain baggaes of controversies.

About second part, the NDA gov has initiated a new deal under G2G and the new Make in India part. The scope of the earlier investigation is the MMRCA deal. I had always questioned them on the deal structure and what were the flaws that for Rs 42000 crs 126 jets flyaway could nt be concluded.. What was the issue right from tender initiation to evaluation to finally signing bcz to me professionally it looked a big gestation period for absolutely NO result to carry forward. The whole tender and the structuring was impractical to begin with and for some good time I knew it won't be concluded. This whole Angle of motive of why it was done and for what needs to be understood.. Of course I speak apolitically. But knowing government and how politics is played , this would be again a mud slinging contest.

But the new Rafale deal of 36 + tranche 1 90 followed by 4 more tranches for IAF and IN will be done. That deal is far far strategic.. Barracuda tech, tech to AMCA, tech to LCA, tech to AURA project, tech of miniaturizing further the brahmos to a new Air launched variant which is less than 800-900 KGS but capable of carrying a 270 kg warhead for 150-200KT capability and a air launched range of 600km (ASMP type), cooperation and tech to a new generation of submarines -SSKs which are similar sized like the SSNs but almost double the size of scorpenes carrying a large cache of VLS and Torpedo tube launch missiles to provide ambiguity option for strike packages from deterrant perspective to space based collaborations. The field is too wide.. 

Interestingly all this was not done when original MMRCA made it clear much before the public announcement of France winning the deal. So everything needs to be understood of why some things were either overlooked or deliberately kept out..

The decisions are still not made for MP. Unless they find a credible replacement and from a long term perspective know that decision won't backfire. The same is for Rafales, it's way too much for any country including USA to match if they want to outsmart the French side.

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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> 2 After the Agusta scam
> the government is looking into the Pilatus and MMRCA Tendering and bidding process
> 
> So will Rafale deal get stuck up again


There is ZERO connection between the MMRCA and the current Rafale deal. Wait for the paid trolls to come out and try to claim there is a link and discredit the Rafale deal at the behest of the Western masters.

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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> There is ZERO connection between the MMRCA and the current Rafale deal. Wait for the paid trolls to come out and try to claim there is a link and discredit the Rafale deal at the behest of the Western masters.



I am not saying that there is a connection

But there is news that The Government is re opening the Rafale deal

Since the present deal has not been signed ; the ONLY thing that remains to be investigated
is HOW and WHY we arrived at Rafale

So that in effect means going all the way upto 2007 when all SIX contenders
had made their bids

What this really means is that there will be further delay in signing the PRESENT Deal

There might be an inkling of Arms dealers doing the rounds of IAF Head quarters
offering bribes to Indians after the MMRCA process had rolled out

You must remember that several IAF retired people and Bureaucrats are being questioned
in AW deal

The previous IAF chief Browne is also under the scanner

The Pilatus deal was always fishy ; Now even the MMRCA looks questionable
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is Today's news

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA

http://www.financialexpress.com/art...ual-hurdles-delay-rafale-deal-takeoff/249396/

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> shifting FM to handle the defense portfolio
> Raising a recently elected RS member to DM level.
> Raising the recently elected RS member to some other portfolio and a portfolio reshuffle based on successful track record of some ministers. This list includes good name like prabhu - railways and Gadkari - transport overall, power minister piyush goyal etc
> Some junior ministers as well as other well know good man managers are also considered.
> Internally Rao Inderjith Singh is also considered but his experience at national level is limited but that gentleman knows what is what as of now.
> VK Singh name is doing rounds but that could be a mismatch owing to the fact that focus is improving air and naval power and realigning army with far more offensive firepower at individual level and deploying the reserve units to other forces to increase efficiency.
> Some folks also wants to wait for July when 50+ new RS member are coming.. So there is a chance someone may handle it for sometime or 2-3 months as a caretaker DM.
> So it's a bit of dicey proposition. S.Swamy name is gaining support but idea of him as DM does nt cut much ice with me as perhaps his one point agenda against Congress family will not be in sync with this role..



VK Singh- A guarenteed disaster of a DM. Not only would this completely destroy the focus that has to be on the Navy (with the Air Force a close second) but VK Singh isn't even liked by the current IA brass all of whom he royally scr*wed as he made his less than dignified exit from the COAS position. The IA likes to conisder themselves as men of honour and most of them (especially in the very senior positions) feel that VKS dishonoured his office, service and fellow soldiers. Furthermore, what credentials does VKS have as a senior minster? There is actually very little crossover between the COAS and DM positions, both demand very different skillsets an managing.

Prabhu/ Gadkari/ Goyal - have proven themselves as truly outstanding ministers and that is why I would prefer they remain where they are. Power, railways and roads are all ESSENTIAL ministries (not that Defence isn't) and if they left their posts would their succesors perform to the same levels? I can't help but be cynical.

Swamy- Just no, a loudmouth in RS is one thing but how that makes him qualified to be DM I don't know. He would be a total disaster.


I still don't see a better candidate than Parrikar. Yes he has a bit of a big mouth but he has finally started to settle into his post and started delivering, DPP-2016 is a masterpeice and critically he seems to have vision and a sound head. Most of the decsions he has taken have been sound especially scrapping the self-defeating blacklisting policy. I think if given 5 years Parrikar could fundamentally change the way the MoD functions for the betterment of the entire defence industry and military. The last thing that is needed is another career politcan "keeping the seat warm" with no real interest in defence.




PARIKRAMA said:


> But the new Rafale deal of 36 + tranche 1 90 followed by 4 more tranches for IAF and IN will be done. That deal is far far strategic.. Barracuda tech, tech to AMCA, tech to LCA, tech to AURA project, tech of miniaturizing further the brahmos to a new Air launched variant which is less than 800-900 KGS but capable of carrying a 270 kg warhead for 150-200KT capability and a air launched range of 600km (ASMP type), cooperation and tech to a new generation of submarines -SSKs which are similar sized like the SSNs but almost double the size of scorpenes carrying a large cache of VLS and Torpedo tube launch missiles to provide ambiguity option for strike packages from deterrant perspective to space based collaborations. The field is too wide..


So this is still going on despite these frankly bizzare overtures to the US and desire to keep the US MIC happy?




PARIKRAMA said:


> Interestingly all this was not done when original MMRCA made it clear much before the public announcement of France winning the deal. So everything needs to be understood of why some things were either overlooked or deliberately kept out..



The previous DM was entirely procedurual- to a fault. He did not think of "out of the box" solutions and thus saw the MMRCA as a jet buy and little more, the notion of leveraging it for strategic benefits probably never occured to that genius.



Stephen Cohen said:


> Since the present deal has not been signed ; the ONLY thing that remains to be investigated
> is HOW and WHY we arrived at Rafale
> 
> So that in effect means going all the way upto 2007 when all SIX contenders
> had made their bids
> 
> What this really means is that there will be further delay in signing the PRESENT Deal
> 
> There might be an inkling of Arms dealers doing the rounds of IAF Head quarters
> offering bribes to Indians after the MMRCA process had rolled out
> 
> You must remember that several IAF retired people and Bureaucrats are being questioned
> in AW deal
> 
> The previous IAF chief Browne is also under the scanner
> 
> The Pilatus deal was always fishy ; Now even the MMRCA looks questionable


Nope, nope and nope again.

Anyone that truly beleives that this new GoI entered into exclusive G-G talks for the Rafale after having already scrapped the MMRCA process without having conducted proper due dilligence is being naive. Why would the PM and DM enter into such talks and leave themselves open for being brought down by the EXACT same scams as the criminals they were replacing? The fact that this GoI and DM have pursued the Rafale for >1 year now indicates everything is above board, neither Modi nor Parrikar have anything at all invested in the deal other than getting the best deal for India.

This is the usual camp jumping on the Rafale deal to try and malign it. It's only a matter of time before the Gripen is being pushed again by these clowns.


Stephen Cohen said:


> @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA
> 
> http://www.financialexpress.com/art...ual-hurdles-delay-rafale-deal-takeoff/249396/



A Non-story if ever there was one, not only is this very old news but these issues can be resolved in a week if both sides are interested.

+ @Stephen Cohen I would LOVE to know how the Swiss Pilatus, Anglo-italian AW and French Dassualt could possibly be linked. Any idiot who is looking to tie them all to a common "wrongdoer" is entirely ignorant of how different all these companies are.

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## randomradio

VK Singh is honest. He will be a very good RM.

But I don't think the RM will be changing anytime soon.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> VK Singh is honest. He will be a very good RM.
> 
> But I don't think the RM will be changing anytime soon.


"Honesty" isn't the sole trait one needs to be a good DM, in fact it isn't even the top 5.

VK Singh as DM would create a great deal of unease by ALL three services. I just don't see what he would be able to accomplish plus he has shown since retiring that he can't control his mouth. Prabhu would be the man but he is busy with Railways and doing fine things there so best to leave him in place.

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## Taygibay

Abingdonboy said:


> + @Stephen Cohen I would LOVE to know how the Swiss Pilatus, Anglo-italian AW and French Dassualt could possibly be linked. Any idiot who is *looking to tie them all to a common "wrongdoer"* is entirely ignorant of how different all these companies are.



Especially since the common side ( wrong or right doing ) is GoI! 

Just sayin' Tay.

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## Nimitam

Abingdonboy said:


> "Honesty" isn't the sole trait one needs to be a good DM, in fact it isn't even the top 5.
> 
> VK Singh as DM would create a great deal of unease by ALL three services. I just don't see what he would be able to accomplish plus he has shown since retiring that he can't control his mouth. Prabhu would be the man but he is busy with Railways and doing fine things there so best to leave him in place.



Honesty is not required to be a good DM, but it is required to be have a public perception of a honest man to become DM. 

MoD is a place where maximum multi Billion $ purchases take place. Add to that the secrecy that come with Defence, its a hot potato. 

The only people who has the image of honesty in the Modi govt. is Modi, Dr. swamy, Parrikar and Smriti Irani. Its going to be a tough call. Amit Shah is also above board, but he is party president and the BJP cannot afford to loose him from a party post.


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## sathya

Honesty should come with efficiency ... Otherwise will end up like ex DM Anthony .

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## Nimitam

sathya said:


> Honesty should come with efficiency ... Otherwise will end up like ex DM Anthony .



Goes without saying, but I guess after St. Antony it needs to be said out loud

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## randomradio

Sincere is the right word.


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## Stephen Cohen

randomradio said:


> Sincere is the right word.



For whom


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## randomradio

Stephen Cohen said:


> For whom



For all that reference to honest.


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## Stephen Cohen

randomradio said:


> For all that reference to honest.



Sincerity of Antony was only towards his master ; Sonia

He made a mess which we are still cleaning up ; he was not sincere towards his job


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## BON PLAN

*Rafale next aircraft to take up India’s Nuke Job ?*
Published April 26, 2016
SOURCE: Anand SG / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG





_ French air force Rafale seen above armed with Nuclear capable ASMP-A Cruise missile _
India and France are on the final lap of negotiations and close to an agreement to sell 36 Rafale fighter jets. 36 Rafale fighters will make up barely two Squadrons in Indian Air Force While IAF wants to further expand Rafale fleet to 60 aircraft but MOD now seems to be more interested in Making in India American F-16 or F-18 fighter jet in locally then procure more French-built Rafale Omni role fighter jet .
Can Two Squadron of French Rafale fighter jets change the outcome of a war ? Not really but Rafale fighter jet might still play a vital role in India’s deterrence capabilities and might be next designated aircraft which will be tasked to deliver a nuclear weapon when needed .
At Present Mirage-2000 are the first go to aircraft by India’s Strategic Forces Command (SFC) who are responsible for the management and administration of the country’s tactical and strategic nuclear weapons stockpile other second lines of designated aircraft are Jaguars and Sukhoi-30 MKI in Indian Air Force fleet , Rafale most likely will supersede Mirage-2000s since French Company never shyied away in mentioning Rafale fighter jet has Nuclear Capable fighter jet in its bid documents for MMRCA Tenders and never objected in past for modifying French Mirage-2000s to carry nuclear weapons designed by India .
Interestingly in 2010 Strategic Forces Command had submitted a proposal to the Defence Ministry for setting up of two dedicated squadrons (40 nos) of fighter aircraft which will act as a mini-Air Force ,separately from Indian Air Force and will be dedicated Nuke delivery platform for SFC .
India most likely will receive Rafale fighter jets minus Nuclear air-launched cruise missile Air-Sol Moyenne Portée (ASMP) currently been used by France to deliver singular variable yield ‘TN 81’ Nuke warhead . India is working on lighter Mach 3 capable Brahmos-NG with a range of 290km to be later modified to carry smaller nuclear warhead for similar roles in near future and plans are to adapt it to other fighter jets like Mirage-2000, Mig-29 and even Rafale Fighter jets.

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## Grevion

Right now it looks like the govt priority is the Augusta Westland bribery case. RM MP made a speech in parliament yesterday targeting congress (for which he being congratulated).
He did mentioned rafale once. This is what he said-
“We will reduce the deal value and we will save a lot. We will show them that we curved out a better deal that what the UPA government was getting that time,” Parrikar said in the Lok Sabha during Calling Attention Motion on the controversial AgustaWestland VVIP helicopter deal.

He said Congress had spread the word that the Rafale deal was signed for USD 9 billion, which got widely reported. “In such a situation, even other people also get carried with such false information"
source-http://www.financialexpress.com/article/india-news/rafale-deal-not-done-yet-government-negotiating-to-reduce-price-manohar-parrikar/250045/

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## PARIKRAMA

BON PLAN said:


> *Rafale next aircraft to take up India’s Nuke Job ?*
> Published April 26, 2016
> SOURCE: Anand SG / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ French air force Rafale seen above armed with Nuclear capable ASMP-A Cruise missile _
> India and France are on the final lap of negotiations and close to an agreement to sell 36 Rafale fighter jets. 36 Rafale fighters will make up barely two Squadrons in Indian Air Force While IAF wants to further expand Rafale fleet to 60 aircraft but MOD now seems to be more interested in Making in India American F-16 or F-18 fighter jet in locally then procure more French-built Rafale Omni role fighter jet .
> Can Two Squadron of French Rafale fighter jets change the outcome of a war ? Not really but Rafale fighter jet might still play a vital role in India’s deterrence capabilities and might be next designated aircraft which will be tasked to deliver a nuclear weapon when needed .
> At Present Mirage-2000 are the first go to aircraft by India’s Strategic Forces Command (SFC) who are responsible for the management and administration of the country’s tactical and strategic nuclear weapons stockpile other second lines of designated aircraft are Jaguars and Sukhoi-30 MKI in Indian Air Force fleet , Rafale most likely will supersede Mirage-2000s since French Company never shyied away in mentioning Rafale fighter jet has Nuclear Capable fighter jet in its bid documents for MMRCA Tenders and never objected in past for modifying French Mirage-2000s to carry nuclear weapons designed by India .
> Interestingly in 2010 Strategic Forces Command had submitted a proposal to the Defence Ministry for setting up of two dedicated squadrons (40 nos) of fighter aircraft which will act as a mini-Air Force ,separately from Indian Air Force and will be dedicated Nuke delivery platform for SFC .
> India most likely will receive Rafale fighter jets minus Nuclear air-launched cruise missile Air-Sol Moyenne Portée (ASMP) currently been used by France to deliver singular variable yield ‘TN 81’ Nuke warhead . India is working on lighter Mach 3 capable Brahmos-NG with a range of 290km to be later modified to carry smaller nuclear warhead for similar roles in near future and plans are to adapt it to other fighter jets like Mirage-2000, Mig-29 and even Rafale Fighter jets.



The article is partially correct.. There are talks of a black project.. Apart from brahmos NG, there is another project being going on which is a very similar case to ASMP-A. It's specs as I said before is roughly a 800-900 kg weight with warhead of 270 kg and a yield of 150-200KT. It's under development for some time but has gained lot of speed in last couple of years.

The ALCM arsenal in strategic parlance will have in future this device, brahmos NG and a Nirbhay Mini version. The game changer may be a new hypersonic ALCM which may come in max 5 years..

Regarding Rafale numbers, let time be the judge.. At this moment it's more of posturing.. Nothing more..

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> The article is partially correct.. There are talks of a black project.. Apart from brahmos NG, there is another project being going on which is a very similar case to ASMP-A. It's specs as I said before is roughly a 800-900 kg weight with warhead of 270 kg and a yield of 150-200KT. It's under development for some time but has gained lot of speed in last couple of years.
> 
> The ALCM arsenal in strategic parlance will have in future this device, brahmos NG and a Nirbhay Mini version. The game changer may be a new hypersonic ALCM which may come in max 5 years..
> 
> Regarding Rafale numbers, let time be the judge.. At this moment it's more of posturing.. Nothing more..



Hello Sir What about the Main Contract of the first 36 planes

I had Two questions

1) Will the Agusta fire also reach the Rafale deal and further delay the whole thing

2 ) Secondly Are all the ToTs and offsets part of the Main 36 plane deal
OR related to the subsequent Make in India deal

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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> Hello Sir What about the Main Contract of the first 36 planes
> 
> I had Two questions
> 
> 1) Will the Agusta fire also reach the Rafale deal and further delay the whole thing
> 
> 2 ) Secondly Are all the ToTs and offsets part of the Main 36 plane deal
> OR related to the subsequent Make in India deal


Hi bro,

No sir pls

For point 1
Delay can happen surely but the motive is unclear.. Seems a bit odd turn of events, owing to the fact that ground realities are different completely then what MP is claiming

Point 2
TOT part most are covered via IGA except black project cooperation bcz that's outside deal purviww..that's agreed at a different level altogethee

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## Grevion

This thread is so quite these days. It made me visit the older rafale thread which was started way back in 2005.
It was nice to see all the excitement when the rafale was announced as the winner in Jan 2012.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

From 2014 Garuda V 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/728567367844782081

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/587263334493265921

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/587263750970871808

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## Stephen Cohen

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy 

https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/20160508.aspx


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## PARIKRAMA

An interesting conversation with subramanian swamy.. Some excerpts which came in my mail.. Article is in oulook may 16th 2016 edition

+++

*You had opposed the Rafale deal for French fighter jets as well.*

Yes, that deal was finalised by two women. One was [Carla Bruni] the wife of the then French President Nicholas Sarkozy and the other was Sonia Gandhi. The price was too high and bribing was involved. That’s why I was opposed to it.

*Are you satisfied at the fresh negotiations by the Modi government for Rafale jets?*

Defence minister Parrikar had asked me if I would mind if the government purchased 36 Rafale jets from France. I told him I had full faith in him and I am satisfied with the way he has carried out the negotiations. Why, he has already reduced the price by one-third and the deal is not yet done.

*You wrote a letter to the prime minister last year warning him against the poor shape of the economy.*

Yes, yes. I said the economy was in a tailspin and it’s still in a very bad shape. Raghuram Rajan says he has managed to keep wholesale prices under control...that’s like bringing down the temperature of a patient by killing him. Look at the investment in capital goods industries, the core industries...lots of changes are still required.

*How would you have handled the economy differently?*

Although I am an economist, I would have used non-economic methods. As an economist, I know that part of the economy moves on psychology. Today, the most important thing is how to enthuse the people, particularly young professionals and the middle class, because social media has become powerful in opinion-making.

*Is that why you recommend the abolition of income tax?*

Yes. The rich have chartered accountants to help them evade taxes. At the bottom, there is no agriculture income tax. Therefore, it is the middle class and young professionals who bear the brunt of it; they will be thrilled if income tax is abolished.

*How will abolition of I-T create jobs? Isn’t jobless growth the real concern?*

Job creation means investments have to go up in small- and medium-scale industries. And for that the interest rate must come down. The prime lending rate today is 12 per cent, which I believe should be brought down to nine per cent. People are borrowing funds abroad at two per cent and lending it here...and this RBI governor cannot get it through his head.

*You do not seem to believe Raghuram Rajan has done a good job?*

Not at all. He may have gone to Chicago but no, I don’t think much of him. This man is completely unsuitable...he belongs to the World Bank-IMF crowd.

*If RBI governorship is offered to you?*

No, no. I am a political person. I will not accept any non-political position.

*In an interview you said that you’d accept if the finance ministry is offered to you?*

Of course, I will accept. A minister is in a political position.

+++
Catch the smart talk what he is aiming and why reporter is asking these questions...

Seems Swamy is going public with his interest to be FM.. Let's see if it happens or not..

Anyways AJ won't continue for much long.. That's assured unless he does something extraordinary to hang onto finance portfolio...

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## randomradio

Some real news about price.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-rafale-fighter-jets/articleshow/52230203.cms


> The Rafale fighter deal that has been stuck for the past several months on pricing issues is likely to move ahead with a new offer from Paris that could see India paying 7.25 billion for 36 new jets.



It seems official though, and no weapons in this package.


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## Nimitam

randomradio said:


> Some real news about price.
> 
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-rafale-fighter-jets/articleshow/52230203.cms
> 
> It seems official though, and no weapons in this package.



So it is around 150 Million $ Per Rafale. No wonder the GoI is hunting for a new MMRCA.


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## PARIKRAMA

I have said before that GOI will pay at most 56000 crs and is looking at below that figure..

See here..




https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-120#post-8147026

Of course many things changed from that time including delivery schedule as well as the customization part.. Weapon package pruning has also been done as discussed here ..

Strangely I have not heard about support package reduction point to 5 years. Rather India has contended that spare consumption average for 5 years what Dassault says is on a higher side for first 5 years and thus for the same price instead of 5 years India has been asking for 10years support.. and this is not new rather something getting discussed from many months ago timeline.

As I said earlier most of Indian customizations for weapons package is nt gonna happen as our NG weapons are not ready yet and will done locally .. I said it here..





https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-205#post-8245201

and






http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/vide...-sales-to-india-to-be-discussed/4172825219001

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## Nimitam

PARIKRAMA said:


> I have said before that GOI will pay at most 56000 crs and is looking at below that figure..
> 
> See here..
> 
> View attachment 304773
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-120#post-8147026
> 
> Of course many things changed from that time including delivery schedule as well as the customization part.. Weapon package pruning has also been done as discussed here ..
> 
> Strangely I have not heard about support package reduction point to 5 years. Rather India has contended that spare consumption average for 5 years what Dassault says is on a higher side for first 5 years and thus for the same price instead of 5 years India has been asking for 10years support.. and this is not new rather something getting discussed from many months ago timeline.
> 
> As I said earlier most of Indian customizations for weapons package is nt gonna happen as our NG weapons are not ready yet and will done locally .. I said it here..
> 
> View attachment 304775
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-205#post-8245201
> 
> and
> 
> View attachment 304778
> 
> 
> http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/vide...-sales-to-india-to-be-discussed/4172825219001



So what is the final price for a stand alone Rafale ? 

without the weapons, without spares or training etc.


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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


>


Haha, please first get this 36 jet deal/saga/drama over first please Mr President!!

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## knight11

Nimitam said:


> So what is the final price for a stand alone Rafale ?
> 
> without the weapons, without spares or training etc.


85-90 Million a piece.


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## WhyCry

knight11 said:


> 85-90 Million a piece.


Naked jets are coming at a $220 million a piece. Their research cost is estimated to be between 50-80 million a bird.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

Dev Destroyer said:


> Naked jets are coming at a $220 million a piece. Their research cost is estimated to be between 50-80 million a bird.


Total cost of the program was valuated at $ 60 Billions. It is the development + procurement of 286 Planes and it was when € was valuated at 1.4 $. The real price is in € and is now valuated at $ 52 Billions (for 286 planes) and $ 46 Billions for 225 planes. It is 200 millions a piece with development. Recurring cost is $ 75 Millions. It was 85 Millions at the MMRCA time because € was at 1.4 $ but now € is at 1.14 $ and the real price is in €, so the price is less.

In the total program cost you have all the spare simulators and so on...

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## WhyCry

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Total cost of the program was valuated at $ 60 Billions. It is the development + procurement of 286 Planes and it was when € was valuated at 1.4 $. The real price is in € and is now valuated at $ 52 Billions (for 286 planes) and $ 46 Billions for 225 planes. It is 200 millions a piece with development. Recurring cost is $ 75 Millions. It was 85 Millions at the MMRCA time because € was at 1.4 $ but now € is at 1.14 $ and the real price is in €, so the price is less.
> 
> In the total program cost you have all the spare simulators and so on...



Thanks for confirming. I was head over heels when months ago here it was discussion of 80 million a piece. I knew it could not be because of the high development cost. They are only calculating the flyaway cost.

Another observation is that they are performing and charging updates per customer as separate modification rather than collective upgrade. Just another question would be, Are there royalties involved?


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## Abingdonboy

knight11 said:


> 85-90 Million a piece.


That's really very agreeable for a flyaway cost. With greater orders comes greater Economies of Scale and thus a reduction of this figure and if they are built in India the cost will come down even more.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

Dev Destroyer said:


> Thanks for confirming. I was head over heels when months ago here it was discussion of 80 million a piece. I knew it could not be because of the high development cost. They are only calculating the flyaway cost.
> 
> Another observation is that they are performing and charging updates per customer as separate modification rather than collective upgrade. Just another question would be, Are there royalties involved?


There is a path for French configuration evolution. If you agree with it it's collective, but if you want something special... Adaptation of Russian weapons will be for India only for the moment.

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## WhyCry

Abingdonboy said:


> That's really very agreeable for a flyaway cost. With greater orders comes greater Economies of Scale and thus a reduction of this figure and if they are built in India the cost will come down even more.


I might not agree with you. India has multiple programs to design and build combat platforms right from LCA MK1A, MKII, AMCA, LCH, Rudra etc. Procuring these Indian platforms will be way cheaper than rafale in this case. Well 36 is a modest number but 126 earlier envisioned would be way higher than anticipated.

My criticism not comes from capabilities of rafale but the cost of it. It will result in making one or more projects to go defunct. According to me India can either fund PAK-FA or rafale even in its current state. I know a wave of criticism will come for me mentioning this as LCA is been in progress for 30 years and just 2 inducted yet. Moreover the IAF is not too pleased with the same. They want the MK2. But we haven't pumped money into the program to be a success. Its been running as a show of symbolism. It is until now that I have most faith to push the same under Mr. Modi's command. We are not going to have it by 2018. They won't be proven either but will mature with time. This will also leave a big gap in our fiscal deficit. Also for the next 2 years, OROP will dent the bill.

Secondly, the experience running the indigenous program will have a great boost for the future aircraft if not the ones now. with rafale will be just the users just as for SU-30 MKI. Oh we at-least make them.

Thirdly, India's power projection will increase considerably if India is an exporter of defense items especially Combat aircraft. 

Fourth, The golden age of defense in India under MII.

Fifth, intrinsic but ultimate goal of being the permanent membership of Security council will only be achieved by being non-aligned and powerful domestically and internationally.

I wish we look at the bigger picture than just looking for a decade at maximum. We are here as a nation the hard way but the correct way just need to do the same.


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## Abingdonboy

Dev Destroyer said:


> I might not agree with you. India has multiple programs to design and build combat platforms right from LCA MK1A, MKII, LCH, Rudra etc.


I don't know why you are linking entirely unrelated products with the purchase of the Rafale deal, they are NOT fighter jets and their progresshas absolutely zilch to do with the Rafales. The fighter stream is itself distinct from any other procurement and vis versa, this is not a zero sum game- all equipment is needed ESPECIALLY fighters with the IAF down to its lowest strength (and still tumbling) in a decade. This emergency will ony be addressed by multiple solutions, there is no one fit solution.




Dev Destroyer said:


> AMCA


The AMCA isn't going to be devloped overnight and the Rafale's induction will be a huge boost to the AMCA, without the Rafale's induction I fear the AMCA will be another highly delayed project. 

The Rafale is a generation ahead of any plane in IAF service as of now in many aspects.



Dev Destroyer said:


> Procuring these Indian platforms will be way cheaper than rafale in this case. Well 36 is a modest number but 126 earlier envisioned would be way higher than anticipated.


There is no case to buy just 36 Rafales, if you are going to buy a new jet you need to buy 100+ or not bother. The IAF is the 4th largest AF in the world, inducting 36 jets would be detrimental to its overall operational capabilties and would cause enourmous wasteful duplication of services. 



Dev Destroyer said:


> My criticism not comes from capabilities of rafale but the cost of it.


And how much do you think the MKI is costing the iAF? When LCCs are compared the Rafale HUMILIATES the MKI. 



Dev Destroyer said:


> They want the MK2. But we haven't pumped money into the program to be a success. Its been running as a show of symbolism. It is until now that I have most faith to push the same under Mr. Modi's command. We are not going to have it by 2018. They won't be proven either but will mature with time. This will also leave a big gap in our fiscal deficit. Also for the next 2 years, OROP will dent the bill.


Money is not an issue between 2014 and 2022 the Indian Military has >$300BN to spend on modernisation and the Rafales will be paid for over the span of >10 years. By the time the IAF finishes paying for their Rafales India will be the 3rd largest economy on the planet with an annual defence budget of >$170BN USD.

Furthermore 50% of the value of the deal will be ploughed back into India in offsets and the number of jobs created will be immense. The Rafale deal will effectively pay for itself in the long term. 



Dev Destroyer said:


> Fifth, intrinsic but ultimate goal of being the permanent membership of Security council will only be achieved by being non-aligned and powerful domestically and internationally.


The French offer India just that.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

*Dassault Aviation presents its aircraft in virtual reality on Oculus Rift: "Immersive Dassault Aviation"*



> The "Immersive Dassault Aviation" application was revealed for the first time at last summer's air shows, the Paris Air Show in particular. Its goal is to present the company's aircraft and to share its passion for aeronautics. *It can now be downloaded from www.dassault-aviation.com.*
> 
> The "Immersive Dassault Aviation" application was conceived and designed by the E-Communication team at Dassault Aviation and by the Modedemploi SOFTEAM Digital agency and places the player at the controls of the Rafale, flying over the majestic peaks of the Mont-Blanc range. The 360* 3D immersion in the midst of the aircraft is a quite stunning experience...
> 
> 3 play modes are proposed:
> 
> 
> Patrol flight: players must maintain their position with the Rafale, in relation to the nEUROn and the Falcon 7X, anticipating any changes in heading and formation.
> 
> Target course: the aim of this mode is to fly the Rafale through the center of virtual targets, following the best possible flight path.
> 
> Autopilot: this mode is a means of discovering the characteristics of the Rafale, Falcon 7X and nEUROn, while admiring their formation flight over Mont-Blanc, using the 360* display capability of the Oculus headset.



http://finance.yahoo.com/news/dassault-aviation-presents-aircraft-virtual-103749708.html

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## Abingdonboy

_"The sanctioned strength of fighter squadrons is 42, but 100 percent is never reached. We have 34 squadrons at present. In next three to four years, four to five squadrons of Tejas will be added; a few more squadrons of Sukhoi will also come. *By then two squadrons of Rafale jets will also come," Parrikar said.*


----------
_
*
"By the end of this year, a decision will be taken on which fighter aircraft will be made in India. We have not decided yet whether we will make the F-18, Eurofighter, Rafale or Griffin."*

http://www.firstpost.com/india/first-sqaudron-tejas-light-combat-aircraft-fighter-jet-2790964.html


The 36 (/54) off the shelf Rafales here are being spoken of as guarenteed and being factored into the IAF's 2020 force levels already . The logical extension of this would be to opt for the Rafale as the Made in India fighter also (and Dassualt are so far the ONLY OEM to have reached advanced stages of talks for the same) but it seems MP is still trying to play the "tough guy" and trying these childish pressure tactics on Dassualt.


+ I hope Parrikar was misquoted and he didn't actually call the "Gripen" the "Griffin" otherwise God help us all, this man actually weilds an enourmous amount of power.


++ Interesting that he mentions the Typhoon, that fighter has all but slipped off the radar (excuse the pun) with seemingly no renewed efforts by the Consortium for the IAF bid whilst SAAB, LM and Boeing are all pushing hard once again. I wonder what this signals, do the EFT Consortium know something the others don't? One would have thought the EFT stood the best chance should the Rafale not be selected considering the EFT was the only other fighter to have met the IAF's criteria whilst the other OEMs are simply offering fighters already rejected by the IAF.

++ Taking the DM at his word; 2 SQNs of Rafales (36 jets) within 3-4 years implies contract signing VERY soon.


@PARIKRAMA @ni8mare @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Stephen Cohen

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## Picdelamirand-oil

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...aucratic-paralysis-hits-rafale-deal/84483312/


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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...aucratic-paralysis-hits-rafale-deal/84483312/



This is the first time I have seen a Rafale article that is actually accurate.


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## Stephen Cohen

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...aucratic-paralysis-hits-rafale-deal/84483312/



We can trust this Government

The Prime Minister is personally following this up ; at the most we will see some more delays

But it will happen inevitably

Even today the defence minister has said " A few more weeks "

We are too far down the road to turn back now



randomradio said:


> This is the first time I have seen a Rafale article that is actually accurate.



Mate ; what have you heard and is this Smita Nagaraj an obstacle 

Good that she has been shown the door


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## randomradio

Stephen Cohen said:


> We can trust this Government
> 
> The Prime Minister is personally following this up ; at the most we will see some more delays
> 
> But it will happen inevitably
> 
> Even today the defence minister has said " A few more weeks "
> 
> We are too far down the road to turn back now



The bureaucrats are now afraid because of the Agusta scandal. Dumbass UPA. They don't want to be pulled up in the future since the Rafale tender became Rafale GTG even though it is obviously clear of taint.


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## Nimitam

randomradio said:


> The bureaucrats are now afraid because of the Agusta scandal. Dumbass UPA. They don't want to be pulled up in the future since the Rafale tender became Rafale GTG even though it is obviously clear of taint.



Only the guilty show fear, the honest need not worry if the political leadership is with them.

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## randomradio

Nimitam said:


> Only the guilty show fear, the honest need not worry if the political leadership is with them.



They will make scapegoats of the innocent. There is no justice in politics.

If I, as a bureaucrat, listens to a BJP leader and signs during times of trouble, no matter how honest I am the next UPA govt will pull me up for corruption. That's guaranteed. So it has nothing to do with being honest or not. It's politics. Nice guys finish last.

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## Nimitam

randomradio said:


> They will make scapegoats of the innocent. There is no justice in politics.
> 
> If I, as a bureaucrat, listens to a BJP leader and signs during times of trouble, no matter how honest I am the next UPA govt will pull me up for corruption. That's guaranteed. So it has nothing to do with being honest or not. It's politics. Nice guys finish last.



This is a common myth propagated by the guilty to cover up their sins. 

They can be made scapegoats ONLY if they have NOT followed the Law and procedure. 

IT has nothing to do with politics. Even in our social life, corporate life ect. the guilty and the lazy do not do anything for the fear of making mistakes. It is a sign of cowardice and not honesty or caution. 

The bureaucrat do not have to "LISTEN" to the BJP leader, he can demand a WRITTEN request by the BJP leader. A document that will establish his innocence IF every there is a witch hunt. 

However if witch hunt by congress is the objective then their guilt and innocence will not matter. They will be harassed and prosecuted irrespective of their stand. That is why its called a witch hunt (those hunted were not really witches). As demonstrated by the punishment of IPS officers in Guajrat and cases against Amit Shah and Narendra Modi. 

Its not the last guys who finish last, its the fools and the lazy who finish last. Honest and hard working nice guys finish FIRST as again demonstrated by Modi who is PM and Amit Shah who is President of the worlds largest party.

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## PARIKRAMA

There is nothing new in what Hindu newspaper is quoting or what DM MP is telling..

The price of Rafale inclusive of weapons was RS 800 crs way back before the January papers were exchanged. India was looking at 20% minimum discount over it to bring it down to figure of around 640Crs.

On top this plan was further developed under MII where the figure reached was between RS 500 Crs to Rs 560 crs with average around Rs 540 crs. This included a lot more localisation as well as benefits of customised NG weapons.

In short this is now slowly being leaked what's the kind of range the price negotiations taking place.

Of course French side never said 750crs rather they quoted 720 crs back in jan 25th late evening negotiations.That was the basis of 36 jets at 25920 crs or round figure 26000 crs. That's $3.86 Bn or Euro 3.45 Bn.

The price reduction point finally settled at $85 Mn per jet all inclusive after the clarity on MII and a tacit approval of first tranche 90, second tranch 50 and a total of 5 tranches. The 18 follow on were reassigned to Navy who will order a separate tranche under MII and more from Merignac

It's the same structure with better control and plugging of loopholes as MKI production. With moving from CKD to all production from raw material with no important import dependence.

This was the basis on which beyond Rafale key technologies inclusive of barracuda stealth /noise reduction tech, reactor stabilisation, aircraft carrier related help, the new 600 km hypersonic ALCM weighing max 750kgs, civilian nuclear tech, tie up into AMCA, LCA Mk1A evolution plus naval variant help, seeker tech transfer and most importantly a separate laser based cooperation for both civil and defense fields (exciting prospect of a new shield against all types of incoming hostile projectiles at various speed and altitude) - these are the few prime ones mentioned beyond which the list is pretty long. And most of these sharing is negotiated by Doval directly.

Inspire of all the nonsense in media as well as India not signing the deal, the Indian rafales are already much beyond planning stage in Merignac and so is the new engine which is now 10 months plus into making. That's the reason also Indian Rafales would be delivered much earlier with new engines more like 2017 end or max beginning 2018.

Expect to see leaked reports of issues of MKI and LCA by same government in coming days and how price is further reduced and bargained. All to make MP a champion of negotiations..

In truth all that is long been done and file with this info is with CCS from mid April where it was decided that May end French team would come for signing. Of course a separate briefing by NSA to PM has also happened on this. This whole posturing is for domestic audience only.

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## PARIKRAMA

A new Air to surface precision weapon of 100 km range will start testing in coming months.. To be scheduled for integration is Su30 MKI , Jags and Rafales..

It's part of NG weapon integration plan of Rafale roadmap..

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## Nimitam

PARIKRAMA said:


> A new Air to surface precision weapon of 100 km range will start testing in coming months.. To be scheduled for integration is Su30 MKI , Jags and Rafales..
> 
> It's part of NG weapon integration plan of Rafale roadmap..



I had heard rumours that SPICE 250 tech. was transferred to India. Can you confirm that ?

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## PARIKRAMA

Nimitam said:


> I had heard rumours that SPICE 250 tech. was transferred to India. Can you confirm that ?


The present order is clubbed with litening pods.. Rafael did provide a roadmap for local Indian production with TOT for multiple missiles chiefly the spike family, Derby family, Python family and using them the spyder system and many standoff bomb kits. Spice 250 is part of the roadmap but that's relatively much newer. 
Not sure if it's availed bcz the position of spike 250 comes later in this pipeline...

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## BON PLAN

PARIKRAMA said:


> A new Air to surface precision weapon of 100 km range will start testing in coming months.. To be scheduled for integration is Su30 MKI , Jags and Rafales..
> 
> It's part of NG weapon integration plan of Rafale roadmap..


A true missile or a glide bomb or between the two : a AASM "Hammer" like ?

Maybe a 125kg AASM ???


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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> In truth all that is long been done and file with this info is with CCS from mid April where it was decided that May end French team would come for signing. Of course a separate briefing by NSA to PM has also happened on this. This whole posturing is for domestic audience only.

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## BON PLAN

Picdelamirand-oil said:


>


and? He smiles for a special reason???


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## GURU DUTT

BON PLAN said:


> and? He smiles for a special reason???


cause he know that deal is already final for 36 and possibally 18 fully french built rafales while deal for 90+ more rafales for make in india programme is also in final stages of nagociations and compiling make no mistake 126+ rafale are already a done deal and niether boeing or LM or SAAB can do anything against it

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## BON PLAN

GURU DUTT said:


> cause he know that deal is already final for 36 and possibally 18 fully french built rafales while deal for 90+ more rafales for make in india programme is also in final stages of nagociations and compiling make no mistake 126+ rafale are already a done deal and niether boeing or LM or SAAB can do anything against it


We heard too much news about GO and NO GO on this saga.... I just hope it's time now.

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## Agent_47

PARIKRAMA said:


> This was the basis on which beyond Rafale key technologies inclusive of barracuda stealth /noise reduction tech, reactor stabilisation, aircraft carrier related help, the new 600 km hypersonic ALCM weighing max 750kgs, civilian nuclear tech, tie up into AMCA, LCA Mk1A evolution plus naval variant help, seeker tech transfer and most importantly a separate laser based cooperation for both civil and defense fields (exciting prospect of a new shield against all types of incoming hostile projectiles at various speed and altitude) - these are the few prime ones mentioned beyond which the list is pretty long. And most of these sharing is negotiated by Doval directly.


I find this part very hard to digest , is there any credible source indicating the possibility ?

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


>



*Dassault Aviation is now producing 2 Rafale aircraft per month, doubling production, but could increase up to three in case of new export contracts.*
The manufacturer, which doubled its monthly production in 2015 after having earned his first two contracts for 24 aircraft each with Egypt and Qatar , hopes to sign a contract for 36 units with India and discuss with other prospects, including Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates. “I have stabilized for now the production line of two (planes) before moving on to three if the contracts are coming” , said the CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, during the press day of the fair the EBACE business aviation, which opens in Geneva on Tuesday. *“**I can not commit myself on the fact of whether it will happen this year, I set myself a position of being able to sign a third or fourth contract ”* , he added.

*



*
*The hope of new contracts*
The manufacturer, which hopes to finally sign a contract of 36 Rafale with India, no longer ventures to predictions on any timing.* “The ball is not in my court, ball is in the hands of the Indian authorities ”* , simply said Eric Trappier. If Dassault Aviation can not sign new export contracts, the manufacturer slowly decrease its production to return to a monthly rate of one per month, he said

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## Agent_47

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Dassault Aviation is now producing 2 Rafale aircraft per month, doubling production, but could increase up to three in case of new export contracts.*
> The manufacturer, which doubled its monthly production in 2015 after having earned his first two contracts for 24 aircraft each with Egypt and Qatar , hopes to sign a contract for 36 units with India and discuss with other prospects, including Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates. “I have stabilized for now the production line of two (planes) before moving on to three if the contracts are coming” , said the CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, during the press day of the fair the EBACE business aviation, which opens in Geneva on Tuesday. *“**I can not commit myself on the fact of whether it will happen this year, I set myself a position of being able to sign a third or fourth contract ”* , he added.
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *The hope of new contracts*
> The manufacturer, which hopes to finally sign a contract of 36 Rafale with India, no longer ventures to predictions on any timing.* “The ball is not in my court, ball is in the hands of the Indian authorities ”* , simply said Eric Trappier. If Dassault Aviation can not sign new export contracts, the manufacturer slowly decrease its production to return to a monthly rate of one per month, he said
> 
> View attachment 306764
> 
> 
> View attachment 306767
> 
> View attachment 306765
> 
> View attachment 306766


No, i am talking about the additional perks part (SSN tech etc) .

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## PARIKRAMA

Agent_47 said:


> No, i am talking about the additional perks part (SSN tech etc) .


No one will officially say on record that France is giving us XYZ tech as part of the deal. It will be leaked of course in newspapers at an appropriate time...

If you want one small hint then look for some public info which will be coming out soon about scorpene 5th and 6th sub unable to sport DRDO aip due to that being not ready inspite of what DRDO claims. Infact that became a necessity where under an urgency DCNS was asked to support AIP tech under a 100% exception basis in FDI to transfer tech know how to indian industry. 

It's in the same manner you will see critical companies doing work in barracuda doing some work in normal pretence also opening shops in India in a much bigger way. Like DCNS being offered a role in Indian ACC work too and there by getting entrance to black projects.. It's just that kind of examples where you will understand what we have negotiated..

Officially we will never on record say France helped us with so many things..

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## BON PLAN

PARIKRAMA said:


> No one will officially say on record that France is giving us XYZ tech as part of the deal. It will be leaked of course in newspapers at an appropriate time...
> 
> If you want one small hint then look for some public info which will be coming out soon about scorpene 5th and 6th sub unable to sport DRDO aip due to that being not ready inspite of what DRDO claims. Infact that became a necessity where under an urgency DCNS was asked to support AIP tech under a 100% exception basis in FDI to transfer tech know how to indian industry.
> 
> It's in the same manner you will see critical companies doing work in barracuda doing some work in normal pretence also opening shops in India in a much bigger way. Like DCNS being offered a role in Indian ACC work too and there by getting entrance to black projects.. It's just that kind of examples where you will understand what we have negotiated..
> 
> Officially we will never on record say France helped us with so many things..


France help Israel for missile technology and uranium enrichment the same manner.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Dassault Aviation is now producing 2 Rafale aircraft per month, doubling production, but could increase up to three in case of new export contracts.*
> The manufacturer, which doubled its monthly production in 2015 after having earned his first two contracts for 24 aircraft each with Egypt and Qatar , hopes to sign a contract for 36 units with India and discuss with other prospects, including Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates. “I have stabilized for now the production line of two (planes) before moving on to three if the contracts are coming” , said the CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, during the press day of the fair the EBACE business aviation, which opens in Geneva on Tuesday. *“**I can not commit myself on the fact of whether it will happen this year, I set myself a position of being able to sign a third or fourth contract ”* , he added.
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *The hope of new contracts*
> The manufacturer, which hopes to finally sign a contract of 36 Rafale with India, no longer ventures to predictions on any timing.* “The ball is not in my court, ball is in the hands of the Indian authorities ”* , simply said Eric Trappier. If Dassault Aviation can not sign new export contracts, the manufacturer slowly decrease its production to return to a monthly rate of one per month, he said
> 
> View attachment 306764
> 
> 
> View attachment 306767
> 
> View attachment 306765
> 
> View attachment 306766




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/735151769962045440
In an interview yesterday.

Link to his interview. youtu.be/uXjFYIJ3ZXw

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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/735151769962045440
> In an interview yesterday.
> 
> Link to his interview. youtu.be/uXjFYIJ3ZXw



The problem is DM MP has been advised by a new good friend from West that the whole deal should be at max $7.5Bn . This has prompted MP to again try and see what can be cut down.

Now unfortunately the figure of $7.5Bn is for 36 outright purchases of limited systems via FMS route being offered by our new West friend for a twin engine plane as a quick solution.. The rest of secondary package plus lifetime costs is much higher. DM MP is aware of that fact and hence has not given the approval to that offer of a quick FMS deal for 'new non NATO' ally.

But MP is more or less convinced that there is a scope of further price reduction with dilution of Indian side requirements. He had put that remark to NaMo and AJ. Unfortunately what more can be diluted is a good guess.. The way it looks if a base reduces will do that trick and reduce the price by 1.1-1.2 Bn euro from 7.8Bn Euro and make it 6.7Bn Euro or around 7.5Bn USD.

Now challenge is the fact that it was almost certain that two Rafale bases were in East and North West India. The East base is planned to be supplemented with additional squadron over time and will become a more regional hub and spoke model deployment.
The NW base also is planned in a manner that it's range from inside India to border will be less than 800-1000 km and yet it wud be able to cover a complete part of the hostile environment without much AAR needs.

Now suddenly such a reduction of 1 base would need one side of planning to be delayed and second would be that the security aspect is "outsourced" to have the assurance that delay is a risk mitigated situation.

Of course, there are talks of freeing up some assets and trying to improve availability both of which are not moving as DM MP was hoping and will require a more closer scrutiny.

In case a base is finally reduced, there is a very very strong chance that India has agreed with the so called West friend and got some assurance of providing assured security to their perceived threat index. If the base reduced js from West it's not a very good news for our West neighbours. If it's from East, then its even more complicated..

Let's hope some sanity prevails and PM NaMo gives some direction to all instead if these wring methodology of pursuing cost cutting on behest of such advices.

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## enquencher

This rafale deal is bringing lot of surprises with it.alcm baracudda n i think joint development of amca. Rafale gonna end 250 plus in numbers .rafale naval or help in lca naval is assured. Thnx for the info @PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar 002


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## BON PLAN

PARIKRAMA said:


> The problem is DM MP has been advised by a new good friend from West that the whole deal should be at max $7.5Bn . This has prompted MP to again try and see what can be cut down.
> 
> Now unfortunately the figure of $7.5Bn is for 36 outright purchases of limited systems via FMS route being offered by our new West friend for a twin engine plane as a quick solution.. The rest of secondary package plus lifetime costs is much higher. DM MP is aware of that fact and hence has not given the approval to that offer of a quick FMS deal for 'new non NATO' ally.
> 
> But MP is more or less convinced that there is a scope of further price reduction with dilution of Indian side requirements. He had put that remark to NaMo and AJ. Unfortunately what more can be diluted is a good guess.. The way it looks if a base reduces will do that trick and reduce the price by 1.1-1.2 Bn euro from 7.8Bn Euro and make it 6.7Bn Euro or around 7.5Bn USD.
> 
> Now challenge is the fact that it was almost certain that two Rafale bases were in East and North West India. The East base is planned to be supplemented with additional squadron over time and will become a more regional hub and spoke model deployment.
> The NW base also is planned in a manner that it's range from inside India to border will be less than 800-1000 km and yet it wud be able to cover a complete part of the hostile environment without much AAR needs.
> 
> Now suddenly such a reduction of 1 base would need one side of planning to be delayed and second would be that the security aspect is "outsourced" to have the assurance that delay is a risk mitigated situation.
> 
> Of course, there are talks of freeing up some assets and trying to improve availability both of which are not moving as DM MP was hoping and will require a more closer scrutiny.
> 
> In case a base is finally reduced, there is a very very strong chance that India has agreed with the so called West friend and got some assurance of providing assured security to their perceived threat index. If the base reduced js from West it's not a very good news for our West neighbours. If it's from East, then its even more complicated..
> 
> Let's hope some sanity prevails and PM NaMo gives some direction to all instead if these wring methodology of pursuing cost cutting on behest of such advices.


Always a very good source you seem to be !

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## sathya

PARIKRAMA said:


> The problem is DM MP has been advised by a new good friend from West that the whole deal should be at max $7.5Bn . This has prompted MP to again try and see what can be cut down.
> 
> Now unfortunately the figure of $7.5Bn is for 36 outright purchases of limited systems via FMS route being offered by our new West friend for a twin engine plane as a quick solution.. The rest of secondary package plus lifetime costs is much higher. DM MP is aware of that fact and hence has not given the approval to that offer of a quick FMS deal for 'new non NATO' ally.
> 
> But MP is more or less convinced that there is a scope of further price reduction with dilution of Indian side requirements. He had put that remark to NaMo and AJ. Unfortunately what more can be diluted is a good guess.. The way it looks if a base reduces will do that trick and reduce the price by 1.1-1.2 Bn euro from 7.8Bn Euro and make it 6.7Bn Euro or around 7.5Bn USD.
> 
> Now challenge is the fact that it was almost certain that two Rafale bases were in East and North West India. The East base is planned to be supplemented with additional squadron over time and will become a more regional hub and spoke model deployment.
> The NW base also is planned in a manner that it's range from inside India to border will be less than 800-1000 km and yet it wud be able to cover a complete part of the hostile environment without much AAR needs.
> 
> Now suddenly such a reduction of 1 base would need one side of planning to be delayed and second would be that the security aspect is "outsourced" to have the assurance that delay is a risk mitigated situation.
> 
> Of course, there are talks of freeing up some assets and trying to improve availability both of which are not moving as DM MP was hoping and will require a more closer scrutiny.
> 
> In case a base is finally reduced, there is a very very strong chance that India has agreed with the so called West friend and got some assurance of providing assured security to their perceived threat index. If the base reduced js from West it's not a very good news for our West neighbours. If it's from East, then its even more complicated..
> 
> Let's hope some sanity prevails and PM NaMo gives some direction to all instead if these wring methodology of pursuing cost cutting on behest of such advices.




Basic question from me,

When MII rafale happens , we are going to have many bases for Rafale, are we going to pay France for each base, or we ll do it on our own?

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## Picdelamirand-oil

sathya said:


> Basic question from me,
> 
> When MII rafale happens , we are going to have many bases for Rafale, are we going to pay France for each base, or we ll do it on our own?



For example the question could be: do you want one or two Rafale simulation center?



> In the air-to-surface configuration, the Rafale Marine F2, the naval version, flies at a sea-skimming altitude of 350 feet at Mach 0.95. Its electronic countermeasures are activated to escape detection and lock-on by enemy ship radar. Very quickly, several warships can be seen, including a frigate and several support vessels. On its approach axis, the fighter, just a few nautical miles from the warships, engages fast climbing boosted by its afterburner, to better identify the target and engage it. The Rafale then dives onto its target, a more vulnerable supply ship, to begin its low altitude attack. It instantly inflicts severe damage to the vessel. After pulling out and climbing sharply, a column of smoke rises from the ship, confirmation of a violent fire! However, the Rafale is not completely out of harm's way because at the same time, it becomes itself the target of a missile fired from the warship! The pilot has nothing to worry about, however, since the Spectra active protection on the Rafale enters into operation and the hostile missile is avoided by a chaff release from the fighter. At the same time, at Saint-Dizier, two single-seater Rafale aircraft and a French Air Force two-seater take off on a wingtip to wingtip patrol with their virtual Rafale wingers and join the COMAO (COMposite Air Operation) on a GCA pattern. This maneuver, like the overall mission, was displayed to the pilots shortly before the session began at the "Blue Team" briefing station. In all, the COMAO is made up of 30 virtual aircraft, mainly fighters, dealing with the airborne threats of the Red Team (SWEEP). Their behavior was set by the instructors before the real-time exercise began. These are virtual Mirage 2000-5 aircraft chosen for this task by the Mission Commander.



http://www.sogitec.com/pdf/INTER24A/INTER24A.pdf

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## sathya

Now I understand what parikrama meant by west may have chance..


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## Picdelamirand-oil

Rafale is a complex aircraft able to fullfil all kind of mission so it's a relatively complex aircraft to master. One flight hour in the Rafale Simulation Center (RSC) cost between 100 and 200 € during which the user have unlimited access to munitions. For real flight the cost is $ 10000 for one flight hour without the use of munitions. in France we consider that we need between 230 and 250 hour of flight by year to master Rafale but we only want to spend 180 flight hour for each pilot. The difference is done on RSC.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

*Fund Shortage and Depreciating Rupee Hit Key IAF Programs*

*http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...eciating-rupee-hit-key-iaf-programs/84899486/*

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## W@rwolf

*
Rafale Deal By June, Says India’s Defence Minister*

This could finally be it. India’s chronically delayed effort to contract for new medium fighter jets could finally be at an end. While France’s monumental four-year endeavour to get India to sign up for Rafale jets has fluttered endlessly, India’s defence minister has for the first time provided a specific timeframe for contract signatute: next month! In interviews he gave out today, including this one to the Press Trust of India, Minister Manohar Parrikar has been quoted as saying, *“There is no reason why it should not be concluded in June. Not much is left. It is in the last phase.”* In the muddle that is India’s campaign for new jets, little scraps of explicit guidance mean a lot. Parrikar, whose party, the BJP, recently faux pa’d by claiming that a cheaper Rafale deal was a government achievement, has also indicated that he will “see to it” that the deal is done in June.

And that’s precisely where negotiations have been slowed: on final price negotiations. Earlier this month, it was reported that France had put on the table its final ‘take it or leave it’ deal: a $7.25 billion price tag for the 36 flyaway Rafale fighters, with a separately negotiated weapons contract. It’s important that Minister Parrikar has chosen his government’s two-year anniversary — a time when Ministers are usually deployed to provide specific guidance and trumpet achievements — to provide the first explicit time frame for a contract on what has been one of India’s most elusive modernisation efforts (India’s nearly two decade campaign to induct jet trainers still holds that record).

Source - http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/05/rafale-deal-by-june-says-indias-defence-minister.html

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## PARIKRAMA

It's what I have said before.. The file is with CCS and all this drama and selective quotes leaks everything is for domestic audience consumption and portraying MP as the best negotiator for India and strengthening his position for future PM post.

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## enquencher

sathya said:


> Now I understand what parikrama meant by west may have chance..



Who is the one from west...i din get?


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## Stephen Cohen

W@rwolf said:


> *Rafale Deal By June, Says India’s Defence Minister*
> 
> This could finally be it. India’s chronically delayed effort to contract for new medium fighter jets could finally be at an end. While France’s monumental four-year endeavour to get India to sign up for Rafale jets has fluttered endlessly, India’s defence minister has for the first time provided a specific timeframe for contract signatute: next month! In interviews he gave out today, including this one to the Press Trust of India, Minister Manohar Parrikar has been quoted as saying, *“There is no reason why it should not be concluded in June. Not much is left. It is in the last phase.”* In the muddle that is India’s campaign for new jets, little scraps of explicit guidance mean a lot. Parrikar, whose party, the BJP, recently faux pa’d by claiming that a cheaper Rafale deal was a government achievement, has also indicated that he will “see to it” that the deal is done in June.
> 
> And that’s precisely where negotiations have been slowed: on final price negotiations. Earlier this month, it was reported that France had put on the table its final ‘take it or leave it’ deal: a $7.25 billion price tag for the 36 flyaway Rafale fighters, with a separately negotiated weapons contract. It’s important that Minister Parrikar has chosen his government’s two-year anniversary — a time when Ministers are usually deployed to provide specific guidance and trumpet achievements — to provide the first explicit time frame for a contract on what has been one of India’s most elusive modernisation efforts (India’s nearly two decade campaign to induct jet trainers still holds that record).
> 
> Source - http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/05/rafale-deal-by-june-says-indias-defence-minister.html



MAY GOD BLESS YOU -- for this beautiful news


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## SR-91

PARIKRAMA said:


> Hello my good friend,
> First part, I cannot disclose bcz it's something with which I will be traced easily..
> 
> I can discuss the options which includes
> 
> shifting FM to handle the defense portfolio
> Raising a recently elected RS member to DM level.
> Raising the recently elected RS member to some other portfolio and a portfolio reshuffle based on successful track record of some ministers. This list includes good name like prabhu - railways and Gadkari - transport overall, power minister piyush goyal etc
> Some junior ministers as well as other well know good man managers are also considered.
> Internally Rao Inderjith Singh is also considered but his experience at national level is limited but that gentleman knows what is what as of now.
> VK Singh name is doing rounds but that could be a mismatch owing to the fact that focus is improving air and naval power and realigning army with far more offensive firepower at individual level and deploying the reserve units to other forces to increase efficiency.
> Some folks also wants to wait for July when 50+ new RS member are coming.. So there is a chance someone may handle it for sometime or 2-3 months as a caretaker DM.
> So it's a bit of dicey proposition. S.Swamy name is gaining support but idea of him as DM does nt cut much ice with me as perhaps his one point agenda against Congress family will not be in sync with this role..
> 
> If you ask my personal opinion I had backed 3 guys including Inderjith singh but i had advised and cautioned against moving MP back to Goa. If BJP is clearly inclined as building MP up as a successor to NaMo based on performance, responsibility and mass appeal, then moving him back to Goa unit will backfire massively.
> 
> PM NaMo will fight max upto 2024 where in 2023 he will formally announce his successor name in public and build a image plus consensus. Thus MP moving back will backfire and open gates for other folks who may have mass appeal but also carry certain baggaes of controversies.
> 
> About second part, the NDA gov has initiated a new deal under G2G and the new Make in India part. The scope of the earlier investigation is the MMRCA deal. I had always questioned them on the deal structure and what were the flaws that for Rs 42000 crs 126 jets flyaway could nt be concluded.. What was the issue right from tender initiation to evaluation to finally signing bcz to me professionally it looked a big gestation period for absolutely NO result to carry forward. The whole tender and the structuring was impractical to begin with and for some good time I knew it won't be concluded. This whole Angle of motive of why it was done and for what needs to be understood.. Of course I speak apolitically. But knowing government and how politics is played , this would be again a mud slinging contest.
> 
> But the new Rafale deal of 36 + tranche 1 90 followed by 4 more tranches for IAF and IN will be done. That deal is far far strategic.. *Barracuda tech, tech to AMCA, tech to LCA, tech to AURA project, tech of miniaturizing further the brahmos to a new Air launched variant which is less than 800-900 KGS but capable of carrying a 270 kg warhead for 150-200KT capability and a air launched range of 600km (ASMP type), cooperation and tech to a new generation of submarines -SSKs which are similar sized like the SSNs but almost double the size of scorpenes carrying a large cache of VLS and Torpedo tube launch missiles to provide ambiguity option for strike packages from deterrant perspective to space based collaborations.* The field is too wide..
> 
> Interestingly all this was not done when original MMRCA made it clear much before the public announcement of France winning the deal. So everything needs to be understood of why some things were either overlooked or deliberately kept out..
> 
> The decisions are still not made for MP. Unless they find a credible replacement and from a long term perspective know that decision won't backfire. The same is for Rafales, it's way too much for any country including USA to match if they want to outsmart the French side.




It's been a while @PARIKRAMA, how u been?
Is MP really the successor for Modi? That shocked me, I thought either Amit Shah or Arun Jaitley would make the list first. But moreover he'd be there for atleast 3 terms. I haven't been following, my bad brother.

On a separate note, with the Rafale deal are we really going to get high tech for other projects too. Is that part of the deal? Those tech in bold parts are just mind-blowing to get with this deal.

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## sathya

PARIKRAMA said:


> It's what I have said before.. The file is with CCS and all this drama and selective quotes leaks everything is for domestic audience consumption and portraying MP as the best negotiator for India and strengthening his position for future PM post.




What's your take on Parrikar being the next PM ?
I definitely like his DM role..

How was his CM role in Goa ? Same as DM or different ?
Is he a holistic PM candidate ?

----------------------------

Want to know how much of "other help" we ll get in 36+ 18 Rafales deal ?
Even before MII ?



enquencher said:


> Who is the one from west...i din get?



It's USA , offer is about F18 ..

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## PARIKRAMA

SR-91 said:


> It's been a while @PARIKRAMA, how u been?
> Is MP really the successor for Modi? That shocked me, I thought either Amit Shah or Arun Jaitley would make the list first. But moreover he'd be there for atleast 3 terms. I haven't been following, my bad brother.
> 
> On a separate note, with the Rafale deal are we really going to get high tech for other projects too. Is that part of the deal? Those tech in bold parts are just mind-blowing to get with this deal.



That's what I have heard as he is being looked as successor to Modi.

Of course the deal has way too much strategic parlance.. There is far bigger things then I am quoting here as well as what will ever come out in public eyes..

For a small side hint look for F21 and F17 mod2 and beyond..that's what's being touted as Blackshark replacements for scorpene. And both these torpedoes is by DCNS. Don't be surprised if something from that deal comes to indigenous varunastra to further refine and upgrade it.. Since the need of such torpedoes is much bigger for SSKs and future other N fleet, there is something being worked out to keep things favourable to India in all situations. Further details at an appropriate time.



sathya said:


> What's your take on Parrikar being the next PM ?
> I definitely like his DM role..
> 
> How was his CM role in Goa ? Same as DM or different ?
> Is he a holistic PM candidate ?
> 
> ----------------------------
> 
> Want to know how much of "other help" we ll get in 36+ 18 Rafales deal ?
> Even before MII ?
> 
> 
> 
> It's USA , offer is about F18 ..



MP needs to be rotated to not just defence but perhaps a more important portfolio like finance as well as a role in External affairs. That is my personal opinion. a PM is a plum posting where its a mix of many chairs and having defense ministry experience is a huge plus as it makes you work closely with our friends like France, Russia, japan and to some extent USA as well as take into consideration issues with China. Now a stint in Finance will enable him to understand our country economy better. Goa had just tourism, shipping and minerals.. Not much beyond it whereas the whole country has much diversified economic conditions and industry. Thus it's paramount that instead of being a lameduck PM who knows not much and depends on FM to do the real work , he needs to have a ground up experience. Also with his particular quotes and gaffes, it's important he knows diplomacy part better.. He has played the bad cop role convincingly now he needs a good cop role prt too..


As for Rafale. Barring limited things most if it has to be via MII as we won't be able to hide much if we do it on flyaway basis strategic help. Of course in something's it's a natural choice and progression like the case of DCNS getting us AIP or N tech help in ACC or in barracuda stealth tech part.. But most of the LCA and AMCA tech part comes only with MII work.

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## BON PLAN

PARIKRAMA said:


> For a small side hint look for F21 and F17 mod2 and beyond


There is a huge difference between F21, a up to date torpedo, and the F17 even mod 2, which entered service 26 years ago !
The price probably very different, but the perf even more different.

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## PARIKRAMA

BON PLAN said:


> There is a huge difference between F21, a up to date torpedo, and the F17 even mod 2, which entered service 26 years ago !
> The price probably very different, but the perf even more different.



True but you know how we will bargain... i mean rafale deal has shown clearly what we will want at what price range...

But of course F21 is one of the front runner among replacements..

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## sathya

PARIKRAMA said:


> That's what I have heard as he is being looked as successor to Modi.
> 
> Of course the deal has way too much strategic parlance.. There is far bigger things then I am quoting here as well as what will ever come out in public eyes..
> 
> For a small side hint look for F21 and F17 mod2 and beyond..that's what's being touted as Blackshark replacements for scorpene. And both these torpedoes is by DCNS. Don't be surprised if something from that deal comes to indigenous varunastra to further refine and upgrade it.. Since the need of such torpedoes is much bigger for SSKs and future other N fleet, there is something being worked out to keep things favourable to India in all situations. Further details at an appropriate time.
> 
> 
> 
> MP needs to be rotated to not just defence but perhaps a more important portfolio like finance as well as a role in External affairs. That is my personal opinion. a PM is a plum posting where its a mix of many chairs and having defense ministry experience is a huge plus as it makes you work closely with our friends like France, Russia, japan and to some extent USA as well as take into consideration issues with China. Now a stint in Finance will enable him to understand our country economy better. Goa had just tourism, shipping and minerals.. Not much beyond it whereas the whole country has much diversified economic conditions and industry. Thus it's paramount that instead of being a lameduck PM who knows not much and depends on FM to do the real work , he needs to have a ground up experience. Also with his particular quotes and gaffes, it's important he knows diplomacy part better.. He has played the bad cop role convincingly now he needs a good cop role prt too..
> 
> 
> As for Rafale. Barring limited things most if it has to be via MII as we won't be able to hide much if we do it on flyaway basis strategic help. Of course in something's it's a natural choice and progression like the case of DCNS getting us AIP or N tech help in ACC or in barracuda stealth tech part.. But most of the LCA and AMCA tech part comes only with MII work.




Hope MII gets selected in 2017 march like DM said.
If it gets dragged , LCA , AMCA help would be late.

------------------

Wonderful idea about rotation of ministries.. To know who is the best PM material and give experience to qualify for PM chair .

BJP needs to win many elections for this to succeed ..
I trust Rahul ji will help in making this come real ..

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## BON PLAN

PARIKRAMA said:


> True but you know how we will bargain... i mean rafale deal has shown clearly what we will want at what price range...
> 
> But of course F21 is one of the front runner among replacements..


F21 : more than 50km range. more than 50 knots. wire guided AND auto guided.

F17 mk 2 : 20km+ range, 40 knots, only wire guided....

Same difference than between a Mig 17 and a Mig 29 (not to be too french)

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## monitor

*India will get 36 Rafale fighters only by 2023 *
Published May 27, 2016 
SOURCE: YAHOO 
With the French Defence Minister having made his government’s best offer, price negotiations with France for 36 Rafale fighters are in their end stages. Earlier this month, the Chief of the Indian Air Force (IAF), Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, flew in India’s indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas. This was meant to showcase the IAF’s faith in the fighter produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is yet to earn the Final Operational Clearance (FOC). An order for 40 Tejases has been placed by the IAF and the first three fighters are planned to be inducted this year. But the signing of the Rafale deal and induction of Tejas fighters will not reverse the poor state of the IAF, which has been public knowledge for a few years now. To counter a “two-front collusive threat”, the IAF wants 45 fighter squadrons but has been sanctioned 42 by the government. In March, the Vice Chief of the IAF lamented that they had only 33 squadrons, which were inadequate to fulfill their designated role. The number of fighter squadrons will dwindle further as 3 squadrons of MiG-21M retire in 2018, along with the 2 squadrons of MiG-27 UPG. The 6 squadrons of MiG-21 Bison will be out of service by 2022. Of the current fleet, the legacy fighters — 6 squadrons of the Jaguar, 3 of the Mirage-2000 and three of MiG-29 — will last in service till 2030. How does the IAF plan to make up for the existing shortfall and the forthcoming reductions? First up is the Tejas. An order for 40 aircraft has been placed with HAL, 20 of which are projected to be in service by mid-2018. By mid-2020, the full complement will be in service and, by then, a HAL official said, possibly more in hope than out of conviction, “the FOC will have come”. With Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar throwing his weight behind the Tejas, Ministry sources have confirmed that an order for 80 Tejas-Mk1A — an improved version of the aircraft — will be placed with HAL. The prototype of Tejas-Mk1A will be ready by 2018, and HAL hopes to have the Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) by 2020. It can then be put into production on the Tejas assembly line, which would be free. The workhorse of the IAF will, however, continue to be the Russian Sukhoi MKI. The HAL plant at Nashik produces 12 Sukhois every year, and the IAF expects to have its full complement of 272 Sukhois by 2020. As Parrikar informed Parliament, the serviceability state of Sukhois in service is a worrying 53%. Assuming the Rafale deal is signed shortly, the 36 fighters will be with the IAF only by 2023. Having only 36 fighters of one type makes little sense logistically or operationally. There was talk of a follow-up deal for more Rafales which could be assembled in India, but this is by no means a certainty. If — and this is a big if — all goes to plan, the IAF will be able to maintain its current squadron levels. To make up for the shortfall, Parrikar has indicated another imported fighter will be needed. Three are believed to be in contention: US F-16 and F-18, and the Swedish Gripen. Lockheed Martin has proposed shifting the F-16 assembly line to India but it is a previous generation fighter. The F-18 proposal doesn’t include an assembly line in India, and the IAF is not too enamoured of it. Sweden has made the right noises about transfer of technology and production of Gripen under ‘Make in India’; a formal proposal is expected next month. Meanwhile, the Russians have been pushing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), which was supposed to be jointly developed by Russia and India. India’s lack of interest was apparent from its failure to pay as per schedule. Russia has already developed the fighter with stealth capabilities, and wants India to pay $ 3.7 billion so that HAL can start producing them in India after its Sukhoi assembly line at Nashik is free. The FGFA, however, is needed to replace the legacy fighters which will be in service till 2030. By then, should the Defence Ministry commit strongly to the project, the Aeronautical Development Agency’s (ADA’s) Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) could be poised to enter service. The project needs funding commitment from the government next year, and it hopes to fly the first aircraft in eight years. Another four years will be needed for the IOC. But all this is still in the planning stage. The reality is that the Rafale deal is yet to be signed while the Tejas-Mk1A is still on paper. The rest, from AMCA to FGFA to another foreign fighter, are also in the realm of the future. The IAF, meanwhile, remains at dangerously low squadron strength, with no clarity about its future. Posted in India

..http://idrw.org . Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website , Kindly don http://idrw.org/india-will-get-36-rafale-fighters-2023/ .


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## PARIKRAMA

Credit 
*FPacman*







Credit *BOECKLER Fred* ‏@BOECKLERFred

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## Stephen Cohen

@PARIKRAMA

*Rafale fighter deal: Manohar Parrikar to meet French counterpart in Singapore*
*As India and France look at closing the multi-billion Euro deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets soon, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar will meet his French counterpart Jean Yves Le Drian in Singapore this week.*



As India and France look at closing the multi-billion Euro deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets soon, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar will meet his French counterpart Jean Yves Le Drian in Singapore this week.

Parrikar will be travelling to Singapore on June 2 to attend the Shangri-La Dialogue from June 3


“Both Indian and French Defence Ministers will meet on June 3. Rafale among others will be discussed,” a defence source said.

The issues like consensus on actions to be taken in case of a material breach, stringent liability clause and guarantee by French side are likely to be discussed.

Parrikar had last week said the government is looking at concluding the much-hyped Rafale deal next month, more than a year after Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced the purchase of 36 fighter jets during his visit to France.

The deal was announced by Modi in April last year during his visit to France when he said India would purchase 36 Rafales in a government-to-government contract.

Soon after the announcement, the Defence Ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafales, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.

It is expected that the deal would work out to be about 7.8 Billion Euros including the missiles and other support system.

The Shangri-La Dialogue is an inter-governmental security forum held annually by an independent think-tank, the International Institute for Strategic Studies, and is attended by defence ministers and military chiefs of 28 Asia-Pacific countries.

Last year, US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter had attended the dialogue along with German and the French Defence Ministers among others.

Subjects to be debated in this year’s dialogue include how to meet Asia’s complex security challenges, how to manage military competition in Asia and how to make defence policy in uncertain times.

http://www.financialexpress.com/art...-meet-french-counterpart-in-singapore/269465/

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## Picdelamirand-oil

I have confidence in our defense minister

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## raj76

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> I have confidence in our defense minister


i have confidence in our defense ministers :d

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## Picdelamirand-oil

*http://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-se...e-des-avions-civils-et-militaires-2002525.php*

*Eric Trappier (Dassault Aviation): "With the Rafale, a complete American domination was prevented" *
Anne Bauer* www.lesechos.fr* 31/05 at 07:00 Updated at 07:44

Dassault Aviation is celebrating its hundredth anniversary. The group wants to stay the course of combat drones and works on space transportation. Meeting with its CEO, Eric Trappier.

*To celebrate your hundred years, you publish a book (1) shown by the flight of a business jet, the Falcon 7X, a fighter, the Rafale, and the prototype of a UCAV, Neuron. What will be the picture of Dassault aircraft in a hundred years? 
*
I do not know if Marcel Bloch would have imagined in 1916 our devices today. You ask the impossible. But I have two certainties: Dassault continue to make civil and military aircraft. In a hundred years we will still need to travel, while in the military field, the issue of sovereignty and it will always dominate air support to defend it. The aircraft of the future will he supersonic, hypersonic, space? We can all imagine. Dassault, our engineers work on spacecraft, such as on the Hermes shuttle in the 1980s or currently on Vehra as a space transportation system to launch low-orbit satellites. One can also build a supersonic Falcon, would take it that the regulatory framework allows it to fly.

*The army resumed flight tests of UCAV Neuron. Prefigures he replacing the Rafale? 
*
This is a technology demonstrator, which test test, demonstrated both qualities: stealth and the remote control. Around the world, there is a trend towards automation of the battlefield. We try to expose fewer soldiers, pilots, while the air defense systems, such as S300 and S400 Russia, are increasingly accessible to all States. A UCAV, relatively invisible to radar, flying at low altitude and that does not expose the life of the driver, offers a guarantee to continue to penetrate a number of enemy defenses. Based on the proven technology of the Neuron, we will now launch an operational demonstrator in the Lancaster House Treaty between France and Britain. A budget of EUR 2 billion has been set.

*Are we behind the Americans for stealth aircraft? 
*
No, i dont think so. Neuron has completed its specification for 400 million euros, where Americans spent ten times more. Outstanding performance. As is also the Rafale, which was developed for 7 to 8 billion when the F35 is still not operational despite astronomical spending.

*The future UCAV-Will Franco-British or European? 
*
I think other countries will join the program. Germany the she want? For now, it gives priority to the development of a surveillance drone. Beyond collaboration with London, combat aircraft of the future will be European if the Europeans agree on a common business need. We must learn from fifteen years of failure in European defense. No common strategic need, there can be no program defined in Brussels. Needless to repeat the mistakes of the past.

*Isn't the Rafale, the last Franco-French project? 
*
Not necessarily. Let's stop this fantasy: Dassault and France don't have developed the Rafale against all other countries. Basically, there are real differences in operational requirements. For example, a nuclear deterrence, others not. In defense, the "European preference" is a concept no effect. Many countries prefer to buy American, even though it does not give them access to the source code. Look at Denmark which has decided to buy F35. If the Danes prefer to buy American and create jobs in the United States, that is their choice. Dassault will not try to dissuade them. At the tender launched by the Netherlands in the 2000s, we could give our Rafales, it would not have changed at the will of the Dutch government to equip US hunters to get sheltered from the American umbrella, NATO.

*You were the boss of the aircraft that never sells. Since the Rafale is exported, what change do you see? 
*
The profile of the winner is necessarily easier to wear than the "loser", but with the Rafale, we mostly avoided something fundamental: it prevented a complete American domination. It is a national pride to have succeeded a plane that fulfills its missions, as demonstrated today in the Middle East, and which is exported.

*Will you eventually close the sale in India? 
*
We are ready to enter at any time the ball is in the camp of the Indian government. India explains that it lacks in years of combat aircraft, all requirements are met and we greatly lowered the price. As for the bank guarantee issues raised by the Indian press, I do not understand. There is no need of bank guarantee, since there is a state guarantee. With India, it is an intergovernmental agreement, state to state, which means that France agrees that industrial deliver in due time.

*Is it not legitimate that India fears to ally with a very medium power like France?
*
In the past, whenever India has come into conflict, she used French aircraft: the Mirage from Dassault. India therefore knows that it can count on France and Dassault. As yet just proved it by honoring time and time a recent 2000 Mirages modernization contract.

*Is the business easier in business aviation? 
*
The aviation business is a good barometer of the global economy and this year will be difficult. In a climate of uncertainty, the supply of used jets is very strong and prices fall. The price gap is widening with the new, pushing candidates to buy to offset their investments in the new. However, in the medium term, I have no doubt of its potential for development, because in an economy increasingly globalized, it is the most efficient means of transport.

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## GURU DUTT

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> *Will you eventually close the sale in India?
> *
> We are ready to enter at any time the ball is in the camp of the Indian government. India explains that it lacks in years of combat aircraft, all requirements are met and we greatly lowered the price. As for the bank guarantee issues raised by the Indian press, I do not understand. *There is no need of bank guarantee, since there is a state guarantee. With India, it is an intergovernmental agreement, state to state, which means that France agrees that industrial deliver in due time.*
> 
> *Is it not legitimate that India fears to ally with a very medium power like France?
> *
> In the past, whenever India has come into conflict, she used French aircraft: the Mirage from Dassault. India therefore knows that it can count on France and Dassault. As yet just proved it by honoring time and time a recent 2000 Mirages modernization contract.
> .


now that explains all rafale deal is on

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## PARIKRAMA

*France Greatly Lowered Rafale Price For lndia: Dassault CEO*

01:56 PM, May 31, 2016





Dassault CEO Eric Trappier along with French President Francois Hollande with Rafale fighter in the backdrop (File photo)
- A +
France has “greatly” lowered the price of the Rafale fighter jet for India and all requirements (concerning technical, financial and offsets) have been met, CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier said today.

In an interview to French publication Les Echos, Trappier said that we (meaning the French government which is negotiating the government-to-government deal) are ready to enter at any time (to sign the contract) since the ball in the camp of the Indian government.

*He asserted that there is no need for a bank guarantee in the Rafale deal for India since there is a state guarantee. “With India, it is an inter-governmental agreement, state to state, which means that France agrees industrial deliveries in due time.”*

In reply to a question, he said that the negotiations were started as India needed aircraft urgently. In the past, whenever India has entered into a into conflict, she has used French aircraft: namely the Mirage from Dassault. India therefore knows that it can count on France and Dassault. And most recently, it has entered into a contract with Dassault for the modernization of the Mirage aircraft.

*Eric Trappier’s statement seems to indicate that the negotiation have come to a standstill and that France has made its final offer after lowering the price in relation to the price it has sold in the international market*
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/16205/France_Greatly_Lowered_Rafale_Price_For_lndia__Dassault_CEO





http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ETTWMain

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## Taygibay



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## Abingdonboy

monitor said:


> *India will get 36 Rafale fighters only by 2023 *
> Published May 27, 2016
> SOURCE: YAHOO
> With the French Defence Minister having made his government’s best offer, price negotiations with France for 36 Rafale fighters are in their end stages. Earlier this month, the Chief of the Indian Air Force (IAF), Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, flew in India’s indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas. This was meant to showcase the IAF’s faith in the fighter produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which is yet to earn the Final Operational Clearance (FOC). An order for 40 Tejases has been placed by the IAF and the first three fighters are planned to be inducted this year. But the signing of the Rafale deal and induction of Tejas fighters will not reverse the poor state of the IAF, which has been public knowledge for a few years now. To counter a “two-front collusive threat”, the IAF wants 45 fighter squadrons but has been sanctioned 42 by the government. In March, the Vice Chief of the IAF lamented that they had only 33 squadrons, which were inadequate to fulfill their designated role. The number of fighter squadrons will dwindle further as 3 squadrons of MiG-21M retire in 2018, along with the 2 squadrons of MiG-27 UPG. The 6 squadrons of MiG-21 Bison will be out of service by 2022. Of the current fleet, the legacy fighters — 6 squadrons of the Jaguar, 3 of the Mirage-2000 and three of MiG-29 — will last in service till 2030. How does the IAF plan to make up for the existing shortfall and the forthcoming reductions? First up is the Tejas. An order for 40 aircraft has been placed with HAL, 20 of which are projected to be in service by mid-2018. By mid-2020, the full complement will be in service and, by then, a HAL official said, possibly more in hope than out of conviction, “the FOC will have come”. With Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar throwing his weight behind the Tejas, Ministry sources have confirmed that an order for 80 Tejas-Mk1A — an improved version of the aircraft — will be placed with HAL. The prototype of Tejas-Mk1A will be ready by 2018, and HAL hopes to have the Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) by 2020. It can then be put into production on the Tejas assembly line, which would be free. The workhorse of the IAF will, however, continue to be the Russian Sukhoi MKI. The HAL plant at Nashik produces 12 Sukhois every year, and the IAF expects to have its full complement of 272 Sukhois by 2020. As Parrikar informed Parliament, the serviceability state of Sukhois in service is a worrying 53%. Assuming the Rafale deal is signed shortly, the 36 fighters will be with the IAF only by 2023. Having only 36 fighters of one type makes little sense logistically or operationally. There was talk of a follow-up deal for more Rafales which could be assembled in India, but this is by no means a certainty. If — and this is a big if — all goes to plan, the IAF will be able to maintain its current squadron levels. To make up for the shortfall, Parrikar has indicated another imported fighter will be needed. Three are believed to be in contention: US F-16 and F-18, and the Swedish Gripen. Lockheed Martin has proposed shifting the F-16 assembly line to India but it is a previous generation fighter. The F-18 proposal doesn’t include an assembly line in India, and the IAF is not too enamoured of it. Sweden has made the right noises about transfer of technology and production of Gripen under ‘Make in India’; a formal proposal is expected next month. Meanwhile, the Russians have been pushing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), which was supposed to be jointly developed by Russia and India. India’s lack of interest was apparent from its failure to pay as per schedule. Russia has already developed the fighter with stealth capabilities, and wants India to pay $ 3.7 billion so that HAL can start producing them in India after its Sukhoi assembly line at Nashik is free. The FGFA, however, is needed to replace the legacy fighters which will be in service till 2030. By then, should the Defence Ministry commit strongly to the project, the Aeronautical Development Agency’s (ADA’s) Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) could be poised to enter service. The project needs funding commitment from the government next year, and it hopes to fly the first aircraft in eight years. Another four years will be needed for the IOC. But all this is still in the planning stage. The reality is that the Rafale deal is yet to be signed while the Tejas-Mk1A is still on paper. The rest, from AMCA to FGFA to another foreign fighter, are also in the realm of the future. The IAF, meanwhile, remains at dangerously low squadron strength, with no clarity about its future. Posted in India
> 
> ..http://idrw.org . Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website , Kindly don http://idrw.org/india-will-get-36-rafale-fighters-2023/ .


100% BS. If/when India signs the 36 G-G deal in the next few months/weeks the first bird will touch down in 2018 and all 36 will be delivered by mid 2020. 2023 is an utterly absurd timeline for so few fighters especially with Dassualt having expanded production to cater for more export orders.



raj76 said:


> i have confidence in our defense ministers :d


He is playing some weird games though and whilst I don't question his competence I do question his motives.

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## PARIKRAMA

10th June next DAC. Strategic partnership model will be further streamlined with DPP 2016 loose ends being tied up.

Committed set up like these below will also start functioning






The true benefits of the DPP will take time but this is what is being explained to le Drian whom MP is meeting soon.

All this paving way for the MII part of the deal.

F21 HWT is again a front runner. G2G expected with MII part as requested by India.. Need for Arihant class is top priority. varunastra is getting some help from this deal. Deal discussion underway. 

Oh btw there is a unofficially fact finding on a newsprint article which mentioned on guarantee thing and which was picked up by Sputnik. Also Russian side is offering a new latest variant of R73 which is now no more favoured by IAF as they like Python Derby combo. It seems the newspaper article sponsorship is known to DM who has noted and swiftly asked the progress of FGFA program to understand whats the real status of the program. Russian side is apprehensive that Rafale MII will overshadow FGFA program if the Russian side is not able to deliver the fighter on time and as per Indian sides expectation. It is expected that with MP asking for progress report of FGFA new articles and goodies will be on offer soon. Especially under S400 where its 5 systems at present with 2 battalions per system expected to be further upgraded and with Pantsirs/Tor combo plus S500 certain HTK sections.

Also recently the Gripen E articles by sponsored journalist to Saab factory visit based articles are blanked out from any opinion making or influencing decision making episodes. 

Next in line is the exclusive club access. In case US is able to get us the access to 4 clubs especially the two important ones, India will reciprocate with MII plan for a FXX fighter and agree to buy a considerable quantity.

Buzz is in corridor of powers suggest LM is showcasing less than twice the price of LCA Mk1A for their flagship project in mid 202Xs.

Lots of action expected in coming days..

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Buzz is in corridor of powers suggest LM is showcasing less than twice the price of LCA Mk1A for their flagship project in mid 202Xs.


Irrelevent I'd say bro. This Goi and this DM particuarly have taken personal ownership of the LCA project and the MK1A is said to be the DM's brainchild with 100 already on order. Furthermore he has sanction the doubling of LCA production to 16/year none of these moves are congruent with the dropping of the LCA in favour for a foreign single engined fighter and the ancient F-16 no less. No GoI will be able to justify the scrapping of the LCA project now and this GoI seems particuarly behind it- they are aggresively marketing it abroad and have even taken it abroad (Bahrain). If the MK1A is churned out in enough numbers its unit price will plummet, I'm sure LM can offer a better price point toay but in a decade's time the LCA will be more than able to compete on price with their offer with the kind of infrastructure that will be in place by then.


+ all this "make in India" hype where defence is concerned is hot air as of now, still not a single MII deal has been signed since this GoI entered office that they had kicked off. Talks about making the F-18/16/Gripen in India are all rather meaningless and even the Rafale MII has been unable to see the light of day despite being the most viable. Until Parrikar starts translating his rhetoric into actual actions I will remain cynical of his intent. Many other ministers are performaing FAR better than him.

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## [Bregs]

Abingdonboy said:


> Irrelevent I'd say bro. This Goi and this DM particuarly have taken personal ownership of the LCA project and the MK1A is said to be the DM's brainchild with 100 already on order. Furthermore he has sanction the doubling of LCA production to 16/year none of these moves are congruent with the dropping of the LCA in favour for a foreign single engined fighter and the ancient F-16 no less. No GoI will be able to justify the scrapping of the LCA project now and this GoI seems particuarly behind it- they are aggresively marketing it abroad and have even taken it abroad (Bahrain). If the MK1A is churned out in enough numbers its unit price will plummet, I'm sure LM can offer a better price point toay but in a decade's time the LCA will be more than able to compete on price with their offer with the kind of infrastructure that will be in place by then.




will Rafale deal ever be signed bro ?

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## sathya

PARIKRAMA said:


> 10th June next DAC. Strategic partnership model will be further streamlined with DPP 2016 loose ends being tied up.
> 
> Committed set up like these below will also start functioning
> 
> View attachment 308570
> 
> 
> The true benefits of the DPP will take time but this is what is being explained to le Drian whom MP is meeting soon.
> 
> All this paving way for the MII part of the deal.
> 
> F21 HWT is again a front runner. G2G expected with MII part as requested by India.. Need for Arihant class is top priority. varunastra is getting some help from this deal. Deal discussion underway.
> 
> Oh btw there is a unofficially fact finding on a newsprint article which mentioned on guarantee thing and which was picked up by Sputnik. Also Russian side is offering a new latest variant of R73 which is now no more favoured by IAF as they like Python Derby combo. It seems the newspaper article sponsorship is known to DM who has noted and swiftly asked the progress of FGFA program to understand whats the real status of the program. Russian side is apprehensive that Rafale MII will overshadow FGFA program if the Russian side is not able to deliver the fighter on time and as per Indian sides expectation. It is expected that with MP asking for progress report of FGFA new articles and goodies will be on offer soon. Especially under S400 where its 5 systems at present with 2 battalions per system expected to be further upgraded and with Pantsirs/Tor combo plus S500 certain HTK sections.
> 
> Also recently the Gripen E articles by sponsored journalist to Saab factory visit based articles are blanked out from any opinion making or influencing decision making episodes.
> 
> Next in line is the exclusive club access. In case US is able to get us the access to 4 clubs especially the two important ones, India will reciprocate with MII plan for a FXX fighter and agree to buy a considerable quantity.
> 
> Buzz is in corridor of powers suggest LM is showcasing less than twice the price of LCA Mk1A for their flagship project in mid 202Xs.
> 
> Lots of action expected in coming days..




Lot of info .. So much condensed.
Thanks..

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## Abingdonboy

[Bregs] said:


> will Rafale deal ever be signed bro ?


Gotta ask the DM, he seems to be enjoying the attention he is getting from the media and foreign OEMs on this matter and thus is juggling all the various offers with no real foreward movement other than some remarks about intent every now and then. The fact of the matter is he inhereited an IAF that is facing a fighter crisis and he has still not done anything to address it but is still content claim he is doing the best for the nation.

The Rafale deal will be signed but when is the big question, Parrikar doesn't seem to know it himself. Maybe a few high profile fighter losses will force his hand as he only seems to really act when poltical compulsions dictate it.

@PARIKRAMA do you get the sense that Parrikar is out of his depth or that he is simply a very shrewd politcan that is trying to play all sides? From the outside there seems to be very little consistency with him and there is a distinct disconnect between what he says and what he later decides to do. A few examples:

- Emphasising the need to allow the private sector into defence but selects the Ka-226 to be made by HAL (a decsion made all the more bizzare by the fact that HAL is in the advanced stages of developing their own LUH). Incidentally, as I had predicted, the Ka-226 deal is STILL not signed.
- Emphasising the need to meet the needs of the Forces but then greenlighting the development of the HTT-40 and scrapping the 125 follow-on unit deal of PC-7s to be made in India. This decsion will ensure the IAF doesn't receive any new BTTs for another 5 years (at least) AND will be burdened by having two types for the SAME ROLE. Again, contradictory with his emphasis on making cost savings by creating efficencies.
- Linked to above but with fighters, after the PM personally ensured the Rafale G-G deal was pursued he has failed to see its completion at the earliest despite the PM's remarks that these fighters were for the urgent need of the IAF.
- Emphasising the need for self-reliance and yet seemingly opening the door to LCA-killers Gripen and F-16 to be made in India? Further contradicted by the credit he seems to want for the MK1A's development.
- Saying (in late 2014 IIRC) that blanket blacklisting was counter-productive and only hurt India's defence prepardness but now blacklisting the Finmeccanica and all of its (extensive) subsidaries that India's military has multiple critical deals with (127mm guns for the P-17As and P-15Bs, QR-SAM, Black Shark torpedos- effectively leaving the $500m/boat Scorpenes of the IN toothless, RAN-40L VSR for the IAC-1 ensuring it's induction will be delayed by years etc etc). This whilst there is still not a SINGLE person who has been arrested and no actual wrongdoing proven. A further contradiction is the fact that he is delaying the Rafale deal on the pretext of securing the "best deal for India" (ie saving a few rupees) but this decsion will end up costing India hundreds of millions of USD as the Scorpenes are already hardwired for the Black Sharks, the IAC-1 has been built around the RAN-40L and the delays this blacklisting will cause to numerous CRITICAL defence projects will be horrific.
- Emphasising the needs for more "jointness" amongst the forces and still sat on the CDS and the three new tri-service commands (Space,Cyber and Special Ops).

There's no consistency at all with his decsion making. He is easily one of the worst performers in the Modi cabinet.

Parrikar seems to be a mix of Swamy and AK Anthony- indecisive, a loudmouth and overly concious of political considerations.

*

@JanjaWeed @ranjeet @Levina @Parul @Star Wars @noksss @Taygibay *

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## Taygibay

No need to convince me, Abingdon mate! I'm sure you remember the attacks
when I said the same thing a few months back.

Parrikar spends so much time talking to journos that it's a wonder and two that
A- he slips and seems to contradict himself regularly;
B- he has anytime left to actually do his job.

Although comparison is not reason, the quiet and almost demure Le Drian hasn't
sparked a controversy in over 2 years but signed 2 Rafale contracts and now leads
2-0 at half time in his mano a mano_har _with your DM.

Modi I still like ... for the exact opposite reasons. I'm no fan of showy politics.

Great day to you, Tay.

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> Gotta ask the DM, he seems to be enjoying the attention he is getting from the media and foreign OEMs on this matter and thus is juggling all the various offers with no real foreward movement other than some remarks about intent every now and then. The fact of the matter is he inhereited an IAF that is facing a fighter crisis and he has still not done anything to address it but is still content claim he is doing the best for the nation.
> 
> The Rafale deal will be signed but when is the big question, Parrikar doesn't seem to know it himself. Maybe a few high profile fighter losses will force his hand as he only seems to really act when poltical compulsions dictate it.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA do you get the sense that Parrikar is out of his depth or that he is simply a very shrewd politcan that is trying to play all sides? From the outside there seems to be very little consistency with him and there is a distinct disconnect between what he says and what he later decides to do. A few examples:
> 
> - Emphasising the need to allow the private sector into defence but selects the Ka-226 to be made by HAL (a decsion made all the more bizzare by the fact that HAL is in the advanced stages of developing their own LUH). Incidentally, as I had predicted, the Ka-226 deal is STILL not signed.
> - Emphasising the need to meet the needs of the Forces but then greenlighting the development of the HTT-40 and scrapping the 125 follow-on unit deal of PC-7s to be made in India. This decsion will ensure the IAF doesn't receive any new BTTs for another 5 years (at least) AND will be burdened by having two types for the SAME ROLE. Again, contradictory with his emphasis on making cost savings by creating efficencies.
> - Linked to above but with fighters, after the PM personally ensured the Rafale G-G deal was pursued he has failed to see its completion at the earliest despite the PM's remarks that these fighters were for the urgent need of the IAF.
> - Emphasising the need for self-reliance and yet seemingly opening the door to LCA-killers Gripen and F-16 to be made in India? Further contradicted by the credit he seems to want for the MK1A's development.
> - Saying (in late 2014 IIRC) that blanket blacklisting was counter-productive and only hurt India's defence prepardness but now blacklisting the Finmeccanica and all of its (extensive) subsidaries that India's military has multiple critical deals with (127mm guns for the P-17As and P-15Bs, QR-SAM, Black Shark torpedos- effectively leaving the $500m/boat Scorpenes of the IN toothless, RAN-40L VSR for the IAC-1 ensuring it's induction will be delayed by years etc etc). This whilst there is still not a SINGLE person who has been arrested and no actual wrongdoing proven. A further contradiction is the fact that he is delaying the Rafale deal on the pretext of securing the "best deal for India" (ie saving a few rupees) but this decsion will end up costing India hundreds of millions of USD as the Scorpenes are already hardwired for the Black Sharks, the IAC-1 has been built around the RAN-40L and the delays this blacklisting will cause to numerous CRITICAL defence projects will be horrific.
> - Emphasising the needs for more "jointness" amongst the forces and still sat on the CDS and the three new tri-service commands (Space,Cyber and Special Ops).
> 
> There's no consistency at all with his decsion making. He is easily one of the worst performers in the Modi cabinet.
> 
> Parrikar seems to be a mix of Swamy and AK Anthony- indecisive, a loudmouth and overly concious of political considerations.
> 
> *
> 
> @JanjaWeed @ranjeet @Levina @Parul @Star Wars @noksss @Taygibay *



Well MP tried playing bad cop role a bit too much.. As I said earlier his inexperience in financial matters as well as in diplomacy is a very important point for future grooming KRAs. Of course i do consider that being a ex CM he has some kind of experience but international diplomacy is all together a different ball game.

About decisions there are two thought process. A top down approach tells me that anybody sitting in DM post is driving the whole process of procurement. In AKA case his unwilling attitude to take any kind of risk with no trust in his deputies and Babu's or government functionaries meant a full freeze. A bottoms up approach where all processes are duly followed and a proper decision making is presented to DM for approval consideration is a different scenario all together. In present case the bottoms up approach with DM MP is somewhat creating issues bcz MP is a risk taker surely but a calculated risk taker. Now unfortunately to arrive at such a calculated comfort his modus operandi of making so called all vendor under price war for best possible deal or cancelling all prior ones or to harp on Indian weapon systems or delaying every decision making etc is not showing any result. The reality is in each of the cases MP is forgetting few things like
1. HAL grandfathering is done by rostec and they i mean russiana are always comfortable with HAL then a pvt sector.

2. HTT40 is a sheer stupidity where we shud have targeted a supersonic LIFT for training we are re inventing the wheel for what purpose only God knows.

3 Rafale circus for so called best possible deal and MII part is already seen.

4. Blackshark deal torpedoed and aunk bcz of corruption charges is fine but the truth that Indian HWT varunastra is not ready despite what DRDO will claim is baffling. Also another G2G deal like F21 with France will be a long process and nownwith Rafale experience France knows MP will take own sweet time.


There are numerous examples .


The fact remains what MP is a sophisticated version of AKA. He should look at ppl in other portfolios doing commendable job then him.

Internationally look at folks like le drian. That man has reshaped French defence industry with awesome number of deals. Check his media quotes and what he talks. 

The idea of showing less defense spending and postponing modernisation and portraying security is adequate is utter foolishness. His pet LCA program inspite of his so called focus is running behind schedules. fOC in Dec 2016 is what reports said but then will we be surprised if it's March 2017?.
His emphasis on MII with limited or no progress in localisation or decreasing import parts of higher economic value to critical programs is baffling.

After so much pains some progress happened in bullet proof vests. He does nt even understand why we require Vshorad or QRSAM or a active seeker SRSAM or MRSAM. He backs DRDO which is good but still is unable to push DRDO to quicken the pace of its projects.

Check out Astra Mk1. Last we heard abt MKI tests with new ECCM. But no one knows when it will be available for active service deployment.

The list is long. This guy needs to start deliverring things in a big way. The modernisation needs is close to $189 Bn as per what I saw just a week back spanning over 25 years across 3 forces. But no where the other 3 new forces and it's need of equipments and infra is in that plan. Nor the so called CDS thing is actually being scouted other than customary words in media. Of course now being commented here and ppl discussing, we may see some changes. But that again may be eyewash.

So I don think at present form and performance MP can be a credible successor to NaMo. He needs to walk the talk. He can do it surely. just needs to keep quiet and do his work like other good performers

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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> Parrikar spends so much time talking to journos that it's a wonder and two that


What I find particuarlly strange about this fact is that he is the one minister who has the least need to be going in front of the media! His remit is to ensure the nation's defence and meet the needs of the defence forces and thus there is almost no requirement to talk to the media and thereby interact with the public. His is perhaps the most in-ward looking ministry and yet he can't seem to stay away from the cameras for more than a few days at a time. It's utterly unfathomable and I think it speaks to him as a person and his ambitions. He is not the technocrat that was promised, he is a true blue politcian with his own career interests.

Contrast this with Modi who, afaik, has still not done a single 1-1 interview since he became PM more than 2 years ago.

Let your actions speak for themselves Modi says, why can't Parrikar follow this?



PARIKRAMA said:


> The idea of showing less defense spending and postponing modernisation and portraying security is adequate is utter foolishness.


Indeed and this really pi$$es me off about him. In pretty much interview I have seen of him he seems totally clueless about the scale of the crisis at hand and is trying to portray an "all is well" situation when it couldn't be further from the truth. In a recent interview on RSTV when asked about the fighter situation he was totally uninterested in addressing the fact that the IAF was nowhere near its sanctioned strength and seemed to be trying to dupe the interviewer about what a sanctioned strength actually meant. Instead it seemed that he was trying to spin 32/33 SQNs as "acceptable" going foreward. 

May he has read art of war:
*“Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.” *





PARIKRAMA said:


> Well MP tried playing bad cop role a bit too much..


Exactly, his "tough guy" routine has utterly failed and has only ensured further delays.




PARIKRAMA said:


> After so much pains some progress happened in *bullet proof vests*.


Sorry bro but this shows how pathetically he has performed if we are expected to celebrate this!

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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> What I find particuarlly strange about this fact is that he is the one minister who has the least need to be going in front of the media! His remit is to ensure the nation's defence and meet the needs of the defence forces and thus there is almost no requirement to talk to the media and thereby interact with the public. His is perhaps the most in-ward looking ministry and yet he can't seem to stay away from the cameras for more than a few days at a time. It's utterly unfathomable and I think it speaks to him as a person and his ambitions. He is not the technocrat that was promised, he is a true blue politcian with his own career interests.
> 
> Contrast this with Modi who, afaik, has still not done a single 1-1 interview since he became PM more than 2 years ago.
> 
> Let your actions speak for themselves Modi says, why can't Parrikar follow this?
> 
> 
> Indeed and this really pi$$es me off about him. In pretty much interview I have seen of him he seems totally clueless about the scale of the crisis at hand and is trying to portray an "all is well" situation when it couldn't be further from the truth. In a recent interview on RSTV when asked about the fighter situation he was totally uninterested in addressing the fact that the IAF was nowhere near its sanctioned strength and seemed to be trying to dupe the interviewer about what a sanctioned strength actually meant. Instead it seemed that he was trying to spin 32/33 SQNs as "acceptable" going foreward.
> 
> May he has read art of war:
> *“Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.” *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, his "tough guy" routine has utterly failed and has only ensured further delays.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry bro but this shows how pathetically he has performed if we are expected to celebrate this!



Parrikar is doing his Best ; we cant fault him for NOT trying 

The problem is the Accumulated mess of the last 10 years 

And since we are also bringing in NEW policies of make in India -- New DPP policy 

They have also slowed down some procurements 

But that was also necessary 

You have to do it some day -- how long can we only keep importing 

The original MMRCA was so badly messed that it had to be scrapped 

Now the New deal has taken only one year

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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> Parrikar is doing his Best ; we cant fault him for NOT trying
> 
> The problem is the Accumulated mess of the last 10 years


I don't believe he is doing his best at all. No doubt he inherited a mess BUT so did the Railways minister, so did the Roads minister, Power etc etc etc and all are performing FAR better than Parrikar who has little but a mass accumulation of nonsensical comments to show for his 18 months in his office. Look at what Goyal, Gadkari or Prabhu are doing and then look at what Parrikar is *saying*, the comparisons are just sad.

I do think Parrikar is feeling the pressure with his underperofrmance from the PM and this could be why the rumours about wanting to return to CM of Goa have been circulating. 




Stephen Cohen said:


> And since we are also bringing in NEW policies of make in India -- New DPP policy


The new DPP is BY FAR the best thing he has done in the past 18 months- not really the best record.


Stephen Cohen said:


> They have also slowed down some procurements


This is a terrible move and has left glaring gaps in India's defence prepardness.



Stephen Cohen said:


> You have to do it some day -- how long can we only keep importing


For as long as it takes to create a credible defence industry in India, there is no point in halting imports and waiting for the local products to come up to speed- the inevitable consequence will be a depletion in capabilities. And I don't think this is what the DM has actually done- slowed procurements to reduce imports, no he has slowed procurements because he is suffering from the same "protect my image at all costs" bug as Anthony. He is serving himself here and not the nation. 



Stephen Cohen said:


> Now the New deal has taken only one year



True but the deal has been in a postion to be signed for a number of months now and still Parrikar is playing strange games proclaiming he is trying to "get the best deal for India". Just sign the damn contract already!

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## sathya

Don't know why, i trust much in this DM parrikar. 

You walk in any foreign governments deal, it takes time.. u won't be able to control time lines unless we are ready for compromises. 

In India it takes time even more if you want anything done in government institute.. 

Think about foreign countries, government offices, Drdo,.. 
Other ministries don't have so many uncontrolled factors..

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## Taygibay

sathya said:


> In India it takes time even more if you want anything done in government institute..



It takes time for government institutes to do anything in every country.

The problem with that is only for things like armed forces whose timeline must include instantaneous reactions.
The divide between BoG and even more so TiC times and government time can only work
at armament program level and even then it can drastically reduce overall capacity in fine.

And then there's the non-govt aspect where privates corps get work too
which India is about to look into. Time after time, private sector and of it
especially the Small & Medium Enterprises if well funded, outperform all
and any government offices in reactivity. If you remember well past convos,
the Rafale maintenance in France was reduced precisely on that account.

Have a great day buddy, Tay.

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> Gotta ask the DM, he seems to be enjoying the attention he is getting from the media and foreign OEMs on this matter and thus is juggling all the various offers with no real foreward movement other than some remarks about intent every now and then. The fact of the matter is he inhereited an IAF that is facing a fighter crisis and he has still not done anything to address it but is still content claim he is doing the best for the nation.
> 
> The Rafale deal will be signed but when is the big question, Parrikar doesn't seem to know it himself. Maybe a few high profile fighter losses will force his hand as he only seems to really act when poltical compulsions dictate it.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA do you get the sense that Parrikar is out of his depth or that he is simply a very shrewd politcan that is trying to play all sides? From the outside there seems to be very little consistency with him and there is a distinct disconnect between what he says and what he later decides to do. A few examples:
> 
> - Emphasising the need to allow the private sector into defence but selects the Ka-226 to be made by HAL (a decsion made all the more bizzare by the fact that HAL is in the advanced stages of developing their own LUH). Incidentally, as I had predicted, the Ka-226 deal is STILL not signed.
> - Emphasising the need to meet the needs of the Forces but then greenlighting the development of the HTT-40 and scrapping the 125 follow-on unit deal of PC-7s to be made in India. This decsion will ensure the IAF doesn't receive any new BTTs for another 5 years (at least) AND will be burdened by having two types for the SAME ROLE. Again, contradictory with his emphasis on making cost savings by creating efficencies.
> - Linked to above but with fighters, after the PM personally ensured the Rafale G-G deal was pursued he has failed to see its completion at the earliest despite the PM's remarks that these fighters were for the urgent need of the IAF.
> - Emphasising the need for self-reliance and yet seemingly opening the door to LCA-killers Gripen and F-16 to be made in India? Further contradicted by the credit he seems to want for the MK1A's development.
> - Saying (in late 2014 IIRC) that blanket blacklisting was counter-productive and only hurt India's defence prepardness but now blacklisting the Finmeccanica and all of its (extensive) subsidaries that India's military has multiple critical deals with (127mm guns for the P-17As and P-15Bs, QR-SAM, Black Shark torpedos- effectively leaving the $500m/boat Scorpenes of the IN toothless, RAN-40L VSR for the IAC-1 ensuring it's induction will be delayed by years etc etc). This whilst there is still not a SINGLE person who has been arrested and no actual wrongdoing proven. A further contradiction is the fact that he is delaying the Rafale deal on the pretext of securing the "best deal for India" (ie saving a few rupees) but this decsion will end up costing India hundreds of millions of USD as the Scorpenes are already hardwired for the Black Sharks, the IAC-1 has been built around the RAN-40L and the delays this blacklisting will cause to numerous CRITICAL defence projects will be horrific.
> - Emphasising the needs for more "jointness" amongst the forces and still sat on the CDS and the three new tri-service commands (Space,Cyber and Special Ops).
> 
> There's no consistency at all with his decsion making. He is easily one of the worst performers in the Modi cabinet.
> 
> Parrikar seems to be a mix of Swamy and AK Anthony- indecisive, a loudmouth and overly concious of political considerations.
> 
> *
> 
> @JanjaWeed @ranjeet @Levina @Parul @Star Wars @noksss @Taygibay *



You seem to be quite frustrated bro, but there is no reason to be. The MoD has some high priority projects that are being given more importance, and some of that's not open for public discussion, that's why the media is still taking about less important stuff. First is the new line for SSNs. Second is ballistic missiles, major expansion there, even including the private sector in a big way. These two projects are Parrikar's highest priority. Then comes the navy's new frigate projects with Russia and Indian shipyards, not to mention the new SSK tender.

Now it appears FGFA, S-400 and Indian BMD have more importance than Rafale and other MII projects.

Then there's the expansion of the Aerospace Command. They are working out a plan to launch lots and lots of military satellites. There's also the Army's soldier modernization program, tactical communication systems and FICV project.

Indigenous ammunition is a major drive.

Basically, all of these are getting higher priority. The current plan is to decrease the 70% import bill to 35% over the next 5 years.

From what Parrikar says, FGFA will most likely be signed before Rafale. Could happen this month or the next. But it's happening soon.

What Parrikar has done in two years, the UPA has not done in 10. And what Parrikar has planned to do by the time the term ends, the Congress has never done in the last 60 years and will never do in a million years.

As for the Rafale itself, MMRCA has been canceled. The new Rafale deal is for a new configuration and new price, basically a new contract, and that began only in May 2015. It's barely June 2016 and the deal is almost done. That's a first.

FGFA, negotiations began for a slightly different aircraft with a new price structure only recently, I think in Jan or Feb this year, and now they are already talking about contract signature.

Let's not forget the most important point. A large number of these deals are being signed under the new DPP-2016 which came into force only in April. It's only been 2 months, and all the MII projects will be under the NDA's new DPP-2016, not the old UPA made one.

You are frustrated because all the stuff that you are seeing now on the ground is due to UPA's policies, not the NDA's, that's why everything appears to be so slow. Stuff you will see from this year onwards will be because of NDA's policies, and you will soon start seeing it on the ground. Over the next two to three years, you will see major deals being signed every few months and most of them will be for MII.

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## BON PLAN

Abingdonboy said:


> Gotta ask the DM, he seems to be enjoying the attention he is getting from the media and foreign OEMs on this matter and thus is juggling all the various offers with no real foreward movement other than some remarks about intent every now and then. The fact of the matter is he inhereited an IAF that is facing a fighter crisis and he has still not done anything to address it but is still content claim he is doing the best for the nation.
> 
> The Rafale deal will be signed but when is the big question, Parrikar doesn't seem to know it himself. Maybe a few high profile fighter losses will force his hand as he only seems to really act when poltical compulsions dictate it.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA do you get the sense that Parrikar is out of his depth or that he is simply a very shrewd politcan that is trying to play all sides? From the outside there seems to be very little consistency with him and there is a distinct disconnect between what he says and what he later decides to do. A few examples:
> 
> - Emphasising the need to allow the private sector into defence but selects the Ka-226 to be made by HAL (a decsion made all the more bizzare by the fact that HAL is in the advanced stages of developing their own LUH). Incidentally, as I had predicted, the Ka-226 deal is STILL not signed.
> - Emphasising the need to meet the needs of the Forces but then greenlighting the development of the HTT-40 and scrapping the 125 follow-on unit deal of PC-7s to be made in India. This decsion will ensure the IAF doesn't receive any new BTTs for another 5 years (at least) AND will be burdened by having two types for the SAME ROLE. Again, contradictory with his emphasis on making cost savings by creating efficencies.
> - Linked to above but with fighters, after the PM personally ensured the Rafale G-G deal was pursued he has failed to see its completion at the earliest despite the PM's remarks that these fighters were for the urgent need of the IAF.
> - Emphasising the need for self-reliance and yet seemingly opening the door to LCA-killers Gripen and F-16 to be made in India? Further contradicted by the credit he seems to want for the MK1A's development.
> - Saying (in late 2014 IIRC) that blanket blacklisting was counter-productive and only hurt India's defence prepardness but now blacklisting the Finmeccanica and all of its (extensive) subsidaries that India's military has multiple critical deals with (127mm guns for the P-17As and P-15Bs, QR-SAM, Black Shark torpedos- effectively leaving the $500m/boat Scorpenes of the IN toothless, RAN-40L VSR for the IAC-1 ensuring it's induction will be delayed by years etc etc). This whilst there is still not a SINGLE person who has been arrested and no actual wrongdoing proven. A further contradiction is the fact that he is delaying the Rafale deal on the pretext of securing the "best deal for India" (ie saving a few rupees) but this decsion will end up costing India hundreds of millions of USD as the Scorpenes are already hardwired for the Black Sharks, the IAC-1 has been built around the RAN-40L and the delays this blacklisting will cause to numerous CRITICAL defence projects will be horrific.
> - Emphasising the needs for more "jointness" amongst the forces and still sat on the CDS and the three new tri-service commands (Space,Cyber and Special Ops).
> 
> There's no consistency at all with his decsion making. He is easily one of the worst performers in the Modi cabinet.
> 
> Parrikar seems to be a mix of Swamy and AK Anthony- indecisive, a loudmouth and overly concious of political considerations.
> 
> *
> 
> @JanjaWeed @ranjeet @Levina @Parul @Star Wars @noksss @Taygibay *


What is RAN-40L ?


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## Blue Marlin

BON PLAN said:


> What is RAN-40L ?


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ran-40l

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## BON PLAN

Blue Marlin said:


> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ran-40l


Thanks a lot.
A kind of S1850, you can find on the frigate Horizon.


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## Blue Marlin

BON PLAN said:


> Thanks a lot.
> A kind of S1850, you can find on the frigate Horizon.


indeed but the s1850/smart-l is more capable


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## randomradio

@Abingdonboy 

At the risk of getting banned again, RAN-40L has already been contracted. It won't affect Vikrant.

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> You seem to be quite frustrated bro, but there is no reason to be.


Well all I am seeing is a repeat of AKA's "saintly" practices. Despite saying it was counter-productive, hurt India's national interests and that he wouldn't engage in it, Parrikar has now blacklisted Finemmca and all of its subsidaries therby hurting numerous current and future projects. This will cost India dearly in both time and expense.



randomradio said:


> Then there's the expansion of the Aerospace Command.


There is no Aerospace command, nor is there a Cyber command or Special Operations command- the MoD is STILL sat on those proposals.



randomradio said:


> There's also the Army's soldier modernization program


There has been zero indication this is being pursued with renewed vigor, it took Parrikar a year just to order 50,000 BPJs!



randomradio said:


> From what Parrikar says, FGFA will most likely be signed before Rafale


I don't know what order they will come but a few days ago Parrikar had said that the Rafale deal will be signed in June and the FGFA "phase-2" contract would be signed "shortly" so I would suspect the Rafale deal is coming first. Parrikar would be a fool to prioritise the FGFA, that is still at least a decade away, over the Rafale with the decline in SQN strength now being faced.



BON PLAN said:


> What is RAN-40L ?


The Volume Search Radar (VSR) for the IAC-1 (INS Vikrant):

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> Well all I am seeing is a repeat of AKA's "saintly" practices. Despite saying it was counter-productive, hurt India's national interests and that he wouldn't engage in it, Parrikar has now blacklisted Finemmca and all of its subsidaries therby hurting numerous current and future projects. This will cost India dearly in both time and expense.



It's a good thing long term. The message being sent here is corruption won't be tolerated.



> There is no Aerospace command, nor is there a Cyber command or Special Operations command- the MoD is STILL sat on those proposals.



All three commands technically exist. They are just called by different names until they create the Joint Chiefs office.

The Aerospace Command's work is being carried out under the Integrated Space Cell. It's the same thing with the Cyber and Special Operations Commands. They will be basically new names of already existing systems.



> There has been zero indication this is being pursued with renewed vigor, it took Parrikar a year just to order 50,000 BPJs!



It's incorrect to blame Parrikar when he finished negotiations and signed for the jackets in 2 months, not a year. Basically, all the vendors failed field trials and the tender was scrapped. 50,000 were bought as an emergency, and that's Parrikar's neck in the noose, but he did it anyway. Anthony wouldn't have done the same. 25k will come from Tata, another 25k from MKU. These 50k jackets will be obsolete when they arrive the next month, but DRDO is testing new BPJs that match the original requirements.

And the soldier modernization program is different. But F-INSAS has been scrapped. Right now, the primary purchase will be the new rifles, but army is yet to test some of the weapons. The West has made some pretty kickass stuff and we may be cooperating with them on this.



> I don't know what order they will come but a few days ago Parrikar had said that the Rafale deal will be signed in June and the FGFA "phase-2" contract would be signed "shortly" so I would suspect the Rafale deal is coming first. Parrikar would be a fool to prioritise the FGFA, that is still at least a decade away, over the Rafale with the decline in SQN strength now being faced.



The FGFA will be signed this month, or early next month. CNC will wrap up negotiations soon, submit a report to Parrikar by the end of the month after which it will go through all the bureaucratic procedures right up to CCS. FGFA is apparently already in the bureaucratic loop now. You can say they will both be signed very, very soon. Both projects are fast track projects, so both are equally important.

IAF is no longer worried about the decline in squadrons because at least one more MRCA deal apart from LCA will be signed.

Do you remember I said something a few months ago, that there will be a third MRCA program? Parrikar has also confirmed that, so IAF has no problems in arresting their declining squadrons. In the 90s, IAF had more than 1000 fighters. We may end up reaching that number with 3 MRCA programs and 1 LCA program in the near future. The IAF's immediate requirement is 400 fighter jets, but that number could easily cross 600. Not to mention, a lot of the close support requirements will be covered using attack helicopters, and we may have 400 of those in 10 years, 300+ are already contracted. Plus UCAVs. That's why FGFA will take higher priority now.

We will be inducting 100 fighters, UCAVs and attack helicopters every year by 2020. The squadron shortfall will be covered in just 5 years after the deals are signed.

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## PARIKRAMA

Thank God a good silence is maintained by both DM MP as well as media who is pre occupied with NaMo in US plus NSG stuff.

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## PARIKRAMA

DAC is scheduled for June 15 from earlier June 10 .
Key chapter on strategic partnership in the DPP 2016 to be finalised
Rafale deal some more progress has been done for price now below $8Bn and moving towards $7.5Bn. 
CCS discussions on this is stalled due to clearance issues on MII part with DPP2016 strategic partnership chapter.
West side border airbases for rafale under consideration is 3 with Jodhpur and ambala leading the fray
In the meantime IAF is expected to go to Israel for a close look and train few pilots in F16 Israeli version under an exchange program.
In a quid pro quo manner for the support from US, India will buy an aerial platform from US. 
US is pushing for LM program of F16 to F35 plan. India is pushing for a FMS deal with General Atomics based platforms.
The twin seater Boeing is now in backseat unless a big funding scenario in Democrat choice of Hillary Clinton becomes Prez and pushes for the same later.
Will update soon.. More info lined up..

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## BON PLAN

PARIKRAMA said:


> DAC is scheduled for June 15 from earlier June 10 .
> Key chapter on strategic partnership in the DPP 2016 to be finalised
> Rafale deal some more progress has been done for price now below $8Bn and moving towards $7.5Bn.
> CCS discussions on this is stalled due to clearance issues on MII part with DPP2016 strategic partnership chapter.
> West side border airbases for rafale under consideration is 3 with Jodhpur and ambala leading the fray
> In the meantime IAF is expected to go to Israel for a close look and train few pilots in F16 Israeli version under an exchange program.
> In a quid pro quo manner for the support from US, India will buy an aerial platform from US.
> US is pushing for LM program of F16 to F35 plan. India is pushing for a FMS deal with General Atomics based platforms.
> The twin seater Boeing is now in backseat unless a big funding scenario in Democrat choice of Hillary Clinton becomes Prez and pushes for the same later.
> Will update soon.. More info lined up..


Some news about LeDrian / indian DM encounter ?

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## Mujraparty

PARIKRAMA said:


> DAC is scheduled for June 15 from earlier June 10 .
> Key chapter on strategic partnership in the DPP 2016 to be finalised
> Rafale deal some more progress has been done for price now below $8Bn and moving towards $7.5Bn.
> CCS discussions on this is stalled due to clearance issues on MII part with DPP2016 strategic partnership chapter.
> *West side border airbases for rafale under consideration is 3 with Jodhpur and ambala leading the fray*
> In the meantime IAF is expected to go to Israel for a close look and train few pilots in F16 Israeli version under an exchange program.
> In a quid pro quo manner for the support from US, India will buy an aerial platform from US.
> US is pushing for LM program of F16 to F35 plan. India is pushing for a FMS deal with General Atomics based platforms.
> The twin seater Boeing is now in backseat unless a big funding scenario in Democrat choice of Hillary Clinton becomes Prez and pushes for the same later.
> Will update soon.. More info lined up..




u sire are revealing lot of info on PDF , just be careful about what ur posting ...!!

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## noksss

PARIKRAMA said:


> Thank God a good silence is maintained by both DM MP as well as media who is pre occupied with NaMo in US plus NSG stuff.



Silence on What ?


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## Grevion

PARIKRAMA said:


> West side border airbases for rafale under consideration is 3 with Jodhpur and ambala leading the fray


  Thanks for that particular info mate. Am I the only one in this forum who will se both rafale and mkis flying on a daily basis? I think I am since my house is so close to the airbase.

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## BON PLAN

eowyn said:


> u sire are revealing lot of info on PDF , just be careful about what ur posting ...!!


Why? I hope for P*kistani secret services they know this kind of news ! nothing very highly classified.

But it's very interesting for us. Thanks to Parikrama.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> DAC is scheduled for June 15 from earlier June 10 .
> Key chapter on strategic partnership in the DPP 2016 to be finalised
> Rafale deal some more progress has been done for price now below $8Bn and moving towards $7.5Bn.
> CCS discussions on this is stalled due to clearance issues on MII part with DPP2016 strategic partnership chapter.
> West side border airbases for rafale under consideration is 3 with Jodhpur and ambala leading the fray
> In the meantime IAF is expected to go to Israel for a close look and train few pilots in F16 Israeli version under an exchange program.
> In a quid pro quo manner for the support from US, India will buy an aerial platform from US.
> US is pushing for LM program of F16 to F35 plan. India is pushing for a FMS deal with General Atomics based platforms.
> The twin seater Boeing is now in backseat unless a big funding scenario in Democrat choice of Hillary Clinton becomes Prez and pushes for the same later.
> Will update soon.. More info lined up..


Just get the Rafales ordered (126++ units), the rest can be sorted later (American-Indo ties move VERY slowly because of the baggage of both sides)

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## randomradio

It appears we may purchase the Gripen as well.

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...up-raha-pilots-swedish-fighter-plane-2845984/



> Sweden and SAAB had offered the Gripen for production under the ‘Make in India’ programme held in Mumbai last February. Both the nations ratified the deal during the ‘Shangri La Dialogue’ in Singapore on June 3. The agreement included the production of Gripen multi-role fighter aircraft in India and establishing a long-term relationship for future programmes including comprehensive transfer of technology and joint development of futuristic fighters (AMCA).



This means there is a high chance the Super Hornet is coming as well.


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## The Eagle

BON PLAN said:


> P*kistani



Typo error or something very especial about * instead of "a". So far * is no close to "a" at all. Must be something interesting, if you would like to share?... Thanks..


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## PARIKRAMA

the truth











from-here









a

So how is the Saab deal different from Boeing both of them wants a 100% FDI route.. Boeing last I heard was oki with TASL some stake but still wanted 75% in the JV and a minority partner status for Tata aero. 

If you see the article they have emphasised a lot on radar and irst. and European weapon set.then how without them the whole package is so attractive..

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> the truth
> 
> View attachment 309801
> 
> View attachment 309805
> 
> 
> 
> from-here
> View attachment 309802
> View attachment 309803
> View attachment 309804
> a



That 49% figure refers to Saab's share in FDI, that's a 49:51 JV. And when Saab mentions case-by-case, it refers to Parrikar increasing the 49% share to a greater level so Saab gets majority depending on ToT. So the more ToT they offer, the better the share.

And with SMA coming into the picture, Selex's participation in the deal is pointless.

Now only GE is a problem because of their F414. But with LCA, AMCA, Gripen and possibly a SH deal, the F414's market share in India will increase drastically, so there is greater incentive for GE to transfer tech, including future development of the engine in a JV.

So reaching 100% ToT is not a pipe dream. Especially considering the engine ToT and future development for AMCA.

I think we will buy the SH also.


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## BON PLAN

The Eagle said:


> Typo error or something very especial about * instead of "a". So far * is no close to "a" at all. Must be something interesting, if you would like to share?... Thanks..


with a "a" the word is automatically translate as *****. Try it !


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## deepwater




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## PARIKRAMA

USA-BID-FOR-INDIAN-JET-MARKET-IN-A-NEW-ISSUE...

13 JUNE 2016NATIONALSCAM TRAIL
*The Shadowy World Of Arms Dealer Sanjay Bhandari*
Connections from UPA to NDA, a five-star lifestyle and yet he stayed well below the public radar. Till raids on hawala dealers brought it all tumbling out.
MEETU JAIN







Ever since the Bofors scandal broke in 1987, defence deals and agents have become a cause celebre. Barely has the dust settled on the AgustaWestland helicopter deal, another arms dealer and his political connections have hit the headlines and come under the scrutiny of government agencies. In fact, the man in question, Sanjay Bhandari, was barely known to the public even though he led a five-star lifestyle and had a raft of VIP contacts, among them, as enforcement agencies claim, Robert Vadra, son-in-law of Congress president Sonia Gandhi. Bhandari’s shadow world would have remained hidden were it not for a routine raid by income-tax officials on some Delhi-based hawala operators early this year. While probing a particular dealer, one entry was for Rs 116 crore, on behalf of a Delhi-based company. A probe into this company led them to Sanjay Bhandari. On April 26, Bhandari’s offices and houses in Delhi were raided.

Finance ministry officials are still grappling with the mountain of evidence unearthed. Bhandari, the documents seized showed, had a range of high-level contacts, was in possession of classified documents from the defence ministry and also had properties in the UAE and London, as well as a Panama-based company. For the media, the focus remained largely on his Vadra link. Among the hundreds of e-mails sieved by sleuths were exchanges with Vadra over an apartment in London. While the I-T department and Enforcement Directorate (ED) have asked the UAE and UK for ownership details and Vadra’s lawyers have denied ownership or links to the central London property, the issue has become a political slugfest, with the Congress accusing the BJP of making up such cases to finish the Gandhi family.






Robert Vadra, whose name figures in e-mails unearthed from Bhandari

*Photograph by Jitender Gupta*

Local land records show a British couple owning the property since 2005. Yet the Bhandari cache of e-mails refer to the same property—Flat 12, Bryanston Square, London W1H 2DN. When sleuths raided his office in Defence Colony and houses in Greater Kailash, Bhandari managed to clean out his computer. The sleuths were lucky, for they found he’d copied all his e-mails to his secretary. It’s the e-mail trail between Vadra and Bhandari that’s vexing tax sleuths and the ED. Did Bhandari own the property under a fictitious name? Why did Bhandari’s London aide, Sumit Chaddha, e-mail Vadra’s secretary regarding payments for renovation being undertaken there? Vadra himself is quoted in one e-mail saying he would “look into it”. In fact, Bhandari’s statement to the I-T department says he is still to verify ownership of the properties by going through his papers, but he hasn’t denied knowing Vadra. The ED is investigating leads pointing to the flat in Bryanston Square having been sold to Mayfair Investment FZE, a company incorporated in the UAE on June 18, 2010, for approximately Rs 19 crore. According to records, the company has a Sharjah address: Post Office Box No. 49304, Hamriyah Free Zone.

Here’s a man who doesn’t know what he owns! Bhandari has told the I-T dept he’s yet to verify the ownership of the London properties in question.

Bhandari’s statement to the I-T department says he’d bought the UAE property using bona fide funds. The ED is now probing the source of those funds. Vadra’s lawyers told _Outlook_ their client “does not own, directly or indirectly, a house described by you as No. 12, Ellerton House, Bryanston Square, London” and that Vadra and his assistant “have not entered into any transaction of a financial nature with Mr Sanjay Bhandari and are not even aware that Mr Sanjay Bhandari is involved in any defence transaction”. Finance ministry officials say, “The primary purpose is to ascertain whose money was used to buy these properties and for whom.” What dilutes the Vadra angle is that the BJP government has been systematically attacking the Gandhi family, as was the case in the Agusta scandal, in which a lot of accusations were made and constantly aired but nothing was proved. Sonia took the latest controversy head on, calling Modi a “shahenshah” and demanding an impartial inquiry. _“Doodh ka doodh aur paani ka paani pata chal jayega_ (the truth will come out),” she told reporters in her constituency, Rae Bareli. The Congress believes the government is now targeting Priyanka Gandhi, who may be its face in the Uttar Pradesh elections. Vadra, thanks to his earlier land deals, is a soft target.






The London building referred to in one of the Bhandari-Vadra e-mails

There is, however, much more to the Bhandari saga. He is also under the scanner for suspected ownership of another apartment in London, at Bourdon Street, bought for Rs 10 crore in 2013, and another flat at Jumeirah, Dubai, bought in 2010-11 for Rs 5 crore. I-T officials say he’d also set up a company in Panama. This is all part of an I-T dossier sent to the ED. What makes everything murkier are Bhandari’s connections and clout in the defence ministry and with politicians and ministers in the NDA government. A number of sensitive files were found—some of them classified—in the raids and sent to the defence ministry for verification. The Intelligence Bureau is now investigating how they reached his office.

It’s clear the present government knew of Bhandari’s links with politicians. An old top-secret note of the home ministry accessed by _Outlook_ says, “During the past, L.K. Advani and Robert Vadra visited his residence. Sanjay also boasts of his closeness with Shiela Dikshit, CM Delhi, and claims that he had been talking to her over the telephone once or twice every week positively.” Reacting, Advani’s spokesperson told _Outlook_, “I have never seen him at the Advani residence all these years.” Sheila Dikshit’s reaction was: “Hundreds of people come to meet me daily. I may have met him, but have no idea who he is.”






Gajapathi Raju, Bhandari at an expo

Call records between Bhandari and his associates also show he made several calls to senior BJP leader Siddharth Nath Singh and was in close touch with him. Singh told _Outlook_ he has spoken to Bhandari only 45 times over the last year. But the call record details (CDRs) accessed by _Outlook_ tell a different story. There are 164 calls made over a 2G network and officials are verifying other call details over a VoIP network. Singh says he was in touch with Bhandari as he was a social acquaintance but did not know of the nature of the business Bhandari was in. “I have known him as a family friend for several years and even attended his daughter’s wedding. I knew he was very rich, but I thought his business was in refining.... I came to know what his real business was only after the raids.”

Congress president Sonia Gandhi has reacted to Bhandari being linked to Vadra by saying PM Modi is behaving like a ‘shahenshah’ and that an impartial probe will clear everything.

The Congress, beleaguered by the AgustaWestland expose, was quick to seize the opportunity. “When the BJP associates with arms dealers, it is glorious social acquaintance. The government is complicit in selectively leaking to the media. The dirty tricks department is working overtime,” said spokesperson Anand Sharma. Civil aviation minister Ashok Gajapathi Raju’s OSD, Appa Rao, was another officer in touch with Bhandari. There is a photograph showing Bhandari standing next to the minister at an aviation expo. Appa Rao told_ Outlook_, “This is a purely professional relation. There is no personal link. He met the minister three or four times and in this connection I was in touch with him.” Bhandari had made at least 355 calls to Rao. The CDRs also reveal that he was in touch with a number of bureaucrats from various ministries. The MHA report says Bhandari has been “using the services of Dr P.K. Vasudeva, retired defence scientist from DRDO”, apart from other retired defence personnel. Shishir Gupta, a senior editor with _Hindustan Times_, is also under the scanner. CDRs show 478 calls to/from Bhandari. He declined to comment but these could have been made in his professional capacity. There are also a number of calls from Bhandari to the head of a plane-charter company.






Sonia at a recent rally in Rae Bareli

*Photograph by PTI*

Bhandari’s main focus was defence deals. What is of concern to investigators is how he brazenly got documents from the defence ministry. The MHA report says, “According to another input, one Nafe Singh levelled serious allegations against S. Bhandari, in which he blamed Sanjay for stealing the file in respect of purchase of 126 fighter planes and the file went missing from the ministry and was later recovered on the road. *S. Bhandari had been blamed to have his links with F-16 and F-18 contenders and was made responsible for the leak of photocopies of the file to the above mentioned American contenders.*” During the raid, secret documents that should never have left the defence ministry were found at his Defence Colony flat. The home ministry has forwarded these papers to Sena Bhavan to check whether there is a violation of the Official Secrets Act. Some of these documents refer to the “15th internal CNC meeting for six additional flight refuellers”, proposals put up before the defence acquisition committee and various proposals for acquisitions sent to the defence procurement policy wing.

Some Congress leaders say the NDA’s dirty tricks department is at work and the real target is Priyanka, whom the party may project in the UP elections.

Bhandari’s main company in the defence business is a consultancy firm called Offset India Solutions Pvt Ltd. Tax authorities are probing his Standard Chartered bank statements and payments made in two tranches to this company in August and in October 2010, two years before the IAF bought 75 Pilatus basic trainer aircraft from the Swiss for Rs 4,000 crore. The payments of 2,50,000 Swiss francs and 7,50,000 Swiss francs were made from the Zurich branch of UBS Bank to the OIS account number 52105058250. The remitter was Pilatus Flugzeugwerke AG. It was after this deal that Bhandari actually came into the limelight. Was the money meant for the offset business of Bhandari or was it kickbacks? (Defence offset agreements are arrangements in which the seller of a product or service agrees to buy products or services from its client as an inducement. These agreements are legal trade practices in the aerospace and military industries, but seen by some as protectionist and distorting of competition.) A major share of offsets for Pilatus was bagged by BEL. Bhandari got into the offsets business after a policy change in 2006 by which it was mandatory for foreign firms bagging defence contracts in India valued at Rs 300 crore and above to plough back 30 per cent of the contract value into India for procuring goods or services.






*Photograph by Nirala Tripathi*

The home ministry report describes Bhandari as a man who “keeps his movements and his business matters a closely guarded secret”. He does not allow even his driver to mingle with others.... People do not know about his business.” Sleuths also found Bhandari to be incredibly tech-savvy. “He had even managed to create a software to break the WhatsApp encryption code,” officials claim. In fact, when taxmen raided him on April 26, Bhandari crushed his SIM card to keep his contact details intact. While speaking to someone does not constitute a crime, a look at Bhandari’s company profiles would explain why he was in touch with the people he was in touch with. Micromet ATI India Pvt Ltd, registered at the Defence Colony address, raided recently by the tax department, recently got into the business of “providing technology for doppler weather radars for civilian and military application”, according to a report accessed by _Outlook._ The question is, is this why he made 355 calls to the civil aviation minister’s office?






Bhandari’s much-talked-about company for defence offsets, OIS Advanced Technology Pvt Ltd, also located in Defence Colony, has a paid-up capital of Rs 1 lakh. Nevertheless, it managed to bag a deal with Pilatus AG of Switzerland, which remitted Rs 33 crore in 2010 to this company. Their holding company is called Avaana Software and Services Pvt Ltd, which has a paid-up capital of Rs 81.55 lakh. This company manufactures mini unmanned aerial vehichle (UAV) systems being used by the DRDO, defence ministry and the railways. It has now sought grant of an industrial licence for the manufacture of UAVs and radio frequency identification devices. He was also linked to negotiations to sell F-16 and F-18 fighter jets made by Boeing and General Dynamics respectively, a deal that eventually went to AgustaWestland.

While investigators hasten the probe into the material the tax raids unearthed, some confusion has emerged. It turns out that there is another Delhi businessman, also called Sanjay Bhandari, who has been mistakenly identified as the arms dealer, with most reports stating that the Bhandari under investigation started off as a dealer in imported cars. The Bhandari who is in the eye of the defence storm is in fact an alumnus of Modern School and the son of a homoeopath who was practising in Daryaganj. The “defence deal” Bhandari began business life with an export-import business dealing in homoeopathic and herbal medicines. He has refused to speak to the media, but his interrogation by sleuths should reveal the manner and means by which he graduated from being a small-time businessman to the ranks of the super rich.

***






Union civil aviation minister Gajapathi Raju with his OSD Appa Rao

*The Call Centre*

_Investigators are still trying to decipher Bhandari’s call detail records (CDRs). The list of those he called most frequently is quite intriguing. The most prominent are:_

· At least 164 calls to BJP leader Siddharth Nath Singh.

· He was in frequent touch with Pinnacle Aviation, a company chartering planes, which owns five aircraft and a chopper. Officials at the company refused to comment on whether Bhandari was chartering planes for himself or friends. (Bhandari himself is trying to venture into the aviation business with a charter company called Himalayan Helicorp.)

· A total of 478 calls to _Hindustan Times_ executive editor Shishir Gupta. The journalist refused to comment. (Journalists speak to all kinds of people in their line of work).

· A serving army officer, Brig Satish Kukreja, is another officer Bhandari was in frequent touch with. Kukreja refused to comment as well.

· Appa Rao, OSD to the civil aviation minister, says he spoke to Bhandari 3-4 times and it was for purely professional reasons, but records show 355 calls exchanged between the two.

· A substantial number of callers were from those in the legal profession. According to sources, Bhandari was well connected in the Delhi legal-judicial scene.

***



*The Companies He Keeps*
Wheeler-dealer Sanjay Bhandari has woven a wide, wide web of firms

*Associated companies*

*Micromet ATI India pvt ltd*
· Registered in 2010
· A-341, Defence Colony, New Delhi Paid-up share capital is Rs 1 lakh

*Directors*
· Sanjay Bhandari is a promoter with 90 per cent shareholding.
· Bimal Sareen: 10 per cent

*Manufactures*
· Radars for civilian, military use

*OIS Advanced Technology Pvt Ltd*
· Registered in 2011
· A-341, Defence Colony Paid-up share capital: Rs 1 lakh

*Directors/promoters*
· Sanjay Bhandari: 90 per cent equity shares.
· Wife Sonia Bhandari holds 10 per cent equity shares.

*Manufactures*
· Radars, software, and unmanned aerial vehicles
· Plans to set up factory at Okhla as per documents given to Registrar of Companies. Okhla address, however, found to be false.

*Holding Company*

*Avaana Software & Services Pvt LTD*
· Registered office in Nehru Place.
· Paid-up capital Rs 81.55 lakh
· CEO Bimal Sareen, a US citizen

*Shareholding*
· 50.75 per cent shares held by Sareen
· 9.5 per cent shares held by Bhandari

*Company business*
· Manufacture of micro and mini UAV systems, software

*Other Companies*
· *Offset India Solutions Pvt ltd *Incorporated on February 13, 2008, its authorised share capital is Rs 10,00,000 and its paid-up capital is Rs 1,00,000. Company specialises in management or operation of data processing facilities of others. Directors: Bhandari, Sareen

· *SB Hospitality and Services* Incorporated on March 21, 2007, its authorised share capital is Rs 10,000,000 and its paid-up capital is Rs 5,275,000. Company is involved in health activities. Directors: Sonia Bhandari and Sanjay Bhandari.


http://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/the-shadowy-world-of-arms-dealer-sanjay-bhandari/297263

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## The Eagle

BON PLAN said:


> with a "a" the word is automatically translate as *****. Try it !



If is it about France then I wouldn't write it as Fr*nce but indeed as rightly as France. I did not get you so please ignore my limited knowledge and if you don't mind then educate me abkut that Mysterious* instead of "a" in Pakistan as properly. Thanks.


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## BON PLAN

The Eagle said:


> If is it about France then I wouldn't write it as Fr*nce but indeed as rightly as France. I did not get you so please ignore my limited knowledge and if you don't mind then educate me abkut that Mysterious* instead of "a" in Pakistan as properly. Thanks.


Do what you want Bro.


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## PARIKRAMA

With Mig 27 crashing focus is back on Replacement program for 21 and 27s.

It's a bit too slow to my personal liking. I am sure in next few days there may be a flurry of articles trying for each individual manufacturer based publicity stunt...

I expect MP to take some concrete steps in coming days.. Should hear some solid development in terms of Rafale and LCA both. Expediting will be the key takeaway if MP shows the true nature of our needs..


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## raj76

PARIKRAMA said:


> With Mig 27 crashing focus is back on Replacement program for 21 and 27s.
> 
> It's a bit too slow to my personal liking. I am sure in next few days there may be a flurry of articles trying for each individual manufacturer based publicity stunt...
> 
> I expect MP to take some concrete steps in coming days.. Should hear some solid development in terms of Rafale and LCA both. Expediting will be the key takeaway if MP shows the true nature of our needs..


yea but after 25th of june (after SCO and NSG meetings )

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## Grevion

Is today the day of CCS meeting?


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## PARIKRAMA

Source based news.. Take it with salt.


DM MP is delaying taking decisions for Rafale
Rafale program is 36+90+18+54+45+45+36+36 mix of Merignac and Indian MII.
It is the 45+45+36+36 part which other bidders want to take and are offering competitive package.
Unless the coat of such package is less than the localised Rafale cost with additional benefits, the program is a non starter.
DM is trying to extract a deal from USA for jet powered drones from General Atomics
Lockheed is still trying for F16/F35 program and now it's requesting for 80-120 jets deal with a small part in flyaway and rest under MII. 
Israel is roped in for sophisticated customization for the LM deal.
Also F35 is being showcased for controlling unmanned drones via F35 pilot mode.
In Singapore, le Drian discussion centered around 
Rafale negotiation of package
A long chit chat on Neuron and package flowing to Indian UCAV program.
NSG bid and some gift for USA was also discussed.
F21 torpedo point was discussed 
MP updated around MII strategic partnerships 

Questions are being readied by some senior folks abt replacement program and pace of it. 3 sqds of Mig27 in 3 years max whereas pace of LCA and Rafale deal is too slow to their liking.
Most probably PM NaMo would intervene in coming fortnight to make things in order.
Speculations are rife that NSG bid failure via any Chinese veto directly or indirectly would see USA India deal on
Jet powered armed drones
LM program for aircraft
A high altitude interceptor system
ASW detection program
Logistic related aircraft
Jammer equipments and cooperation in NG jammer program
Aircraft carrier program

Suspense llooksto continue closer to 24th June and post that steps are expected surely

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## YouGotRouged

This Parrikar is turning out to be a legit Antony 2.0 minus the clean image fetish. Unless he has the PMs backing for these delaying tactics...


PARIKRAMA said:


> Source based news.. Take it with salt.
> 
> 
> DM MP is delaying taking decisions for Rafale
> Rafale program is 36+90+18+54+45+45+36+36 mix of Merignac and Indian MII.
> It is the 45+45+36+36 part which other bidders want to take and are offering competitive package.
> Unless the coat of such package is less than the localised Rafale cost with additional benefits, the program is a non starter.
> DM is trying to extract a deal from USA for jet powered drones from General Atomics
> Lockheed is still trying for F16/F35 program and now it's requesting for 80-120 jets deal with a small part in flyaway and rest under MII.
> Israel is roped in for sophisticated customization for the LM deal.
> Also F35 is being showcased for controlling unmanned drones via F35 pilot mode.
> In Singapore, le Drian discussion centered around
> Rafale negotiation of package
> A long chit chat on Neuron and package flowing to Indian UCAV program.
> NSG bid and some gift for USA was also discussed.
> F21 torpedo point was discussed
> MP updated around MII strategic partnerships
> 
> Questions are being readied by some senior folks abt replacement program and pace of it. 3 sqds of Mig27 in 3 years max whereas pace of LCA and Rafale deal is too slow to their liking.
> Most probably PM NaMo would intervene in coming fortnight to make things in order.
> Speculations are rife that NSG bid failure via any Chinese veto directly or indirectly would see USA India deal on
> Jet powered armed drones
> LM program for aircraft
> A high altitude interceptor system
> ASW detection program
> Logistic related aircraft
> Jammer equipments and cooperation in NG jammer program
> Aircraft carrier program
> 
> Suspense llooksto continue closer to 24th June and post that steps are expected surely


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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> Source based news.. Take it with salt.
> 
> 
> DM MP is delaying taking decisions for Rafale
> Rafale program is 36+90+18+54+45+45+36+36 mix of Merignac and Indian MII.
> It is the 45+45+36+36 part which other bidders want to take and are offering competitive package.
> Unless the coat of such package is less than the localised Rafale cost with additional benefits, the program is a non starter.
> DM is trying to extract a deal from USA for jet powered drones from General Atomics
> Lockheed is still trying for F16/F35 program and now it's requesting for 80-120 jets deal with a small part in flyaway and rest under MII.
> Israel is roped in for sophisticated customization for the LM deal.
> Also F35 is being showcased for controlling unmanned drones via F35 pilot mode.
> In Singapore, le Drian discussion centered around
> Rafale negotiation of package
> A long chit chat on Neuron and package flowing to Indian UCAV program.
> NSG bid and some gift for USA was also discussed.
> F21 torpedo point was discussed
> MP updated around MII strategic partnerships
> 
> Questions are being readied by some senior folks abt replacement program and pace of it. 3 sqds of Mig27 in 3 years max whereas pace of LCA and Rafale deal is too slow to their liking.
> Most probably PM NaMo would intervene in coming fortnight to make things in order.
> Speculations are rife that NSG bid failure via any Chinese veto directly or indirectly would see USA India deal on
> Jet powered armed drones
> LM program for aircraft
> A high altitude interceptor system
> ASW detection program
> Logistic related aircraft
> Jammer equipments and cooperation in NG jammer program
> Aircraft carrier program
> 
> Suspense llooksto continue closer to 24th June and post that steps are expected surely





Bill_Maher said:


> This Parrikar is turning out to be a legit Antony 2.0 minus the clean image fetish. Unless he has the PMs backing for these delaying tactics...



FGFA will most likely be signed first.

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## PARIKRAMA

There should be some quotes like this in media soon...

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said that the Rafale combat aircraft deal has not been finalized yet.
IAF chief Arup Raha had a routine trip to Sweden and the visit has nothing to do with the deal of aircraft purchase..
indigenous Tejas had been inducted and a proposal was afoot to manufacture twin engine fighter aircraft in partnership with a foreign company.
You will notice the usage of only "proposal" and "aircraft"

And you will understand the kite flying done so far and how clarity is now being provided as per high command asking to do so...

You will find such quotes soon..


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## [Bregs]

well there is a saying in hindi "Gai bhains paani main" this should have been junked by modi govt 2 yrs back when it came to power, wghen no agreements can be reached for ready mate fighters that too insignificantly low at only 36 in mos then how came MII for it is possible ?.

This is height of obsessiveness on part of IAF for this fighter and Indian govt is not doing any good on its part specially the big mouthed DM

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## Grevion

Dear DM,
Dont try and play the hard game here because its the life of the airforce personals which suffers flying half a decade old fighter planes.
We have lost many lifes due to the same old problem for so many years now and it is the fault of the GOI that after 16 years of stating a requirements for new medium multirole aircraft they still dont have a damn plane.

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## Perpendicular

Indians and their chutiyapa.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Source based news.. Take it with salt.
> 
> 
> DM MP is delaying taking decisions for Rafale
> Rafale program is 36+90+18+54+45+45+36+36 mix of Merignac and Indian MII.
> It is the 45+45+36+36 part which other bidders want to take and are offering competitive package.
> Unless the coat of such package is less than the localised Rafale cost with additional benefits, the program is a non starter.
> DM is trying to extract a deal from USA for jet powered drones from General Atomics
> Lockheed is still trying for F16/F35 program and now it's requesting for 80-120 jets deal with a small part in flyaway and rest under MII.
> Israel is roped in for sophisticated customization for the LM deal.
> Also F35 is being showcased for controlling unmanned drones via F35 pilot mode.
> In Singapore, le Drian discussion centered around
> Rafale negotiation of package
> A long chit chat on Neuron and package flowing to Indian UCAV program.
> NSG bid and some gift for USA was also discussed.
> F21 torpedo point was discussed
> MP updated around MII strategic partnerships
> 
> Questions are being readied by some senior folks abt replacement program and pace of it. 3 sqds of Mig27 in 3 years max whereas pace of LCA and Rafale deal is too slow to their liking.
> Most probably PM NaMo would intervene in coming fortnight to make things in order.
> Speculations are rife that NSG bid failure via any Chinese veto directly or indirectly would see USA India deal on
> Jet powered armed drones
> LM program for aircraft
> A high altitude interceptor system
> ASW detection program
> Logistic related aircraft
> Jammer equipments and cooperation in NG jammer program
> Aircraft carrier program
> 
> Suspense llooksto continue closer to 24th June and post that steps are expected surely


What is MP doing? Delay delay delay.

He said himself that the Rafale deal would be signed this month and now he is pushing it back?? He is fast losing any credibility he had built up by consistently over promising and under delivering and in the process making India look pathetic.

MP is performing entirely below expectations and is not congruent with what the PM has tried to promote for India; consistent swift decision making with transparent processes and predictable deadlines. This is one of India's most critical ministries and yet it is being handled with almost no care or attention.

MP really is trying to be too smart for his own good but what has he actually got to show for his tenure thus far? A new DPP? How utterly despicable. Anthony 2.0 indeed.

India's wait for a new fighter type continues (now 18+ years and waiting)......



litefire said:


> Dear DM,
> Dont try and play the hard game here because its the life of the airforce personals which suffers flying half a decade old fighter planes.
> We have lost many lifes due to the same old problem for so many years now and it is the fault of the GOI that after 16 years of stating a requirements for new medium multirole aircraft they still dont have a damn plane.


Do you think these so-called leaders sat in their plush government bungalows in Delhi give a f*ck? Least of all Parrikar that has gone back on his OWN policy and imposed a blanket blacklisting that has ensured countless mega defence projects will be stalled by years.

And then these same leaders dream of matching the Chinese? They should try careers in comedy if politics doesn't work out.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> What is MP doing? Delay delay delay.
> 
> MP is performing entirely below expectations and is not congruent with what the PM has tried to promote for India; consistent swift decision making with transparent processes and predictable deadlines. This is one of India's most critical ministries and yet it is being handled with almost no care or attention.
> 
> And then these same leaders dream of matching the Chinese? They should try careers in comedy if politics doesn't work out.



*When PM Was Buying Rafales, Parrikar Was Buying Fish In Goa: Digvijaya Singh*
All India |Indo-Asian News Service | Updated: June 03, 2016 22:55 IST







Congress general secretary Digvijaya Singh said Manohar Parrikar is hardly a Defence Minister. (PTI file photo)

PANAJI: When Prime Minister Narendra Modi was striking the Rafale fighter plane deal in France, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was in Goa buying fish, Congress general secretary Digvijaya Singh said today, criticising Mr Parrikar for ignoring his sensitive central ministry brief.

"He is not involved in any of the defence deals. I told you earlier that when Rafale aircraft were being bought by the Prime Minister in France, he was buying fish in Goa. This is what Mr Parrikar's status as a Defence Minister is today," Mr Singh said, addressing a press conference in Panaji.

"The Congress party has been saying so from day one. Parrikar is hardly a Defence Minister. He is a super Chief Minister of Goa," Mr Singh said.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/when...as-buying-fish-in-goa-digvijaya-singh-1415319

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## Grevion

Abingdonboy said:


> What is MP doing? Delay delay delay.
> 
> He said himself that the Rafale deal would be signed this month and now he is pushing it back?? He is fast losing any credibility he had built up by consistently over promising and under delivering and in the process making India look pathetic.
> 
> MP is performing entirely below expectations and is not congruent with what the PM has tried to promote for India; consistent swift decision making with transparent processes and predictable deadlines. This is one of India's most critical ministries and yet it is being handled with almost no care or attention.
> 
> MP really is trying to be too smart for his own good but what has he actually got to show for his tenure thus far? A new DPP? How utterly despicable. Anthony 2.0 indeed.
> 
> India's wait for a new fighter type continues (now 18+ years and waiting)......
> 
> 
> Do you think these so-called leaders sat in their plush government bungalows in Delhi give a f*ck? Least of all Parrikar that has gone back on his OWN policy and imposed a blanket blacklisting that has ensured countless mega defence projects will be stalled by years.
> 
> And then these same leaders dream of matching the Chinese? They should try careers in comedy if politics doesn't work out.


Dreams of matching China! Even the Australians are quicker then us in their defense procurements with their defense needs not as much big as ours let alone the communist PRC.



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> *When PM Was Buying Rafales, Parrikar Was Buying Fish In Goa: Digvijaya Singh*
> All India |Indo-Asian News Service | Updated: June 03, 2016 22:55 IST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Congress general secretary Digvijaya Singh said Manohar Parrikar is hardly a Defence Minister. (PTI file photo)
> 
> PANAJI: When Prime Minister Narendra Modi was striking the Rafale fighter plane deal in France, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was in Goa buying fish, Congress general secretary Digvijaya Singh said today, criticising Mr Parrikar for ignoring his sensitive central ministry brief.
> 
> "He is not involved in any of the defence deals. I told you earlier that when Rafale aircraft were being bought by the Prime Minister in France, he was buying fish in Goa. This is what Mr Parrikar's status as a Defence Minister is today," Mr Singh said, addressing a press conference in Panaji.
> 
> "The Congress party has been saying so from day one. Parrikar is hardly a Defence Minister. He is a super Chief Minister of Goa," Mr Singh said.
> 
> http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/when...as-buying-fish-in-goa-digvijaya-singh-1415319


They have hardly any right to criticise the govt. after the ten years of doing nothing significant in the defense preparedness of our country.

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## Piper

I would wager that something sweet is cooking b/w LM and India, otherwise the delay serves no purpose.

As for French! Ils ont merdé quelque chose de bien. Their loss, our gain

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> What is MP doing? Delay delay delay.
> 
> He said himself that the Rafale deal would be signed this month and now he is pushing it back?? He is fast losing any credibility he had built up by consistently over promising and under delivering and in the process making India look pathetic.
> 
> MP is performing entirely below expectations and is not congruent with what the PM has tried to promote for India; consistent swift decision making with transparent processes and predictable deadlines. This is one of India's most critical ministries and yet it is being handled with almost no care or attention.
> 
> MP really is trying to be too smart for his own good but what has he actually got to show for his tenure thus far? A new DPP? How utterly despicable. Anthony 2.0 indeed.
> 
> India's wait for a new fighter type continues (now 18+ years and waiting)......
> 
> 
> Do you think these so-called leaders sat in their plush government bungalows in Delhi give a f*ck? Least of all Parrikar that has gone back on his OWN policy and imposed a blanket blacklisting that has ensured countless mega defence projects will be stalled by years.
> 
> And then these same leaders dream of matching the Chinese? They should try careers in comedy if politics doesn't work out.



Sorry, but I think he's the best defence minister we have had since decades. Although I can understand how frustrated you are about the Rafale deal, but I don't believe there has been anyone better.

The navy projects under him have gone from normal pace to extreme heights. In the next 10 years, India will add more ships and aircraft than ever done in the last 70 years. All strategic programs have been increased manifold. And manifold doesn't justify it. Even China has stood up to take notice.

He's in fact the DM that we should have had in the 80s or the 90s. He's changing everything. Literally everything. That's why even private companies are so excited. 

He's redefining Indian Standard Time.



Piper said:


> I would wager that something sweet is cooking b/w LM and India, otherwise the delay serves no purpose.
> 
> As for French! Ils ont merdé quelque chose de bien. Their loss, our gain



Nothing's happening between LM and India. Boeing stands a better chance. If India inducts a single engine fighter, it will be the Gripen-E/F.

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## Abingdonboy

Piper said:


> I would wager that something sweet is cooking b/w LM and India, otherwise the delay serves no purpose.
> 
> As for French! Ils ont merdé quelque chose de bien. Their loss, our gain


No US OEM has any chance in the Indian fighter market, Ashton Carter returning empty handed proved that. The Indian side gave them a fair hearing and they spat in India's face.

The Rafale deal is de-linked to anything and everything else. They are coming, it is just a question of when. Parrikar is playing stupid games with the French trying to protect his own political aspirations that is all.



randomradio said:


> Sorry, but I think he's the best defence minister we have had since decades. Although I can understand how frustrated you are about the Rafale deal, but I don't believe there has been anyone better.
> 
> The navy projects under him have gone from normal pace to extreme heights. In the next 10 years, India will add more ships and aircraft than ever done in the last 70 years. All strategic programs have been increased manifold. And manifold doesn't justify it. Even China has stood up to take notice.
> 
> He's in fact the DM that we should have had in the 80s or the 90s. He's changing everything. Literally everything. That's why even private companies are so excited.


What naval projects has Parrikar actually sanctioned under his tenure? Not a SINGLE aviation asset has been cleared for the IN under him and the P-17As were pushed by the PM. He has actually sabotaged the P-15B, IAC-1, Scorpenes, and P-17A because of his blacklisting of OTO, WASS and SALEX which means their main guns (127mm), BLACK SHARK torpedoes and VSR (RAN-40L) aren't coming.



litefire said:


> Dreams of matching China! Even the Australians are quicker then us in their defense procurements with their defense needs not as much big as ours let alone the communist PRC.
> .


Australia? Try the majority of the Western and Eastern world. The only nation that can compete with India on defence procurement sloppiness and delays is the US but they are so far ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to tech and scale that is understandable. 

India's defence procurement record is an utter joke and it isn't getting any better. 




litefire said:


> .
> 
> 
> They have hardly any right to criticise the govt. after the ten years of doing nothing significant in the defense preparedness of our country.


Exactly. It's most bizarre that the party that gave India Anthony are criticising the incumbent DM. The longest serving DM in India's history has single handlidly set back India's defence preparerdness by at least 10-12 years.

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> What naval projects has Parrikar actually sanctioned under his tenure? Not a SINGLE aviation asset has been cleared for the IN under him and the P-17As were pushed by the PM.



Jaitley cleared 80000Cr worth of deals and Parrikar followed up with more than 2LCr worth of deals since then. Since then many of them have been cleared. That's never happened ever. CCS has slowly been approving those deals. 

P-17 was Parrikar's deal. He said it himself. As for aircraft, 2 more Phalcons, C-295 and MRMR are Parrikar's deals. Basically whatever Parrikar has done in a year, UPA has taken 10 years to do.

Think about it, he's always been complaining about money, why do you think that is? His ministry has been burning through the budget really fast. This is why Rafale's funds will be covered from outside the current defence budget.

Parrikar has two major goals right now. First one is to become self-sufficient and the second is exports. He wants India to be a net exporter of weapons. And well before his term is up, he wants to clinch at least two billion bucks in exports. And increase weapons share for indigenous equipment from 70% to 35% in just 5 years. This is something most experts have said would take at least 20-30 years.

There is also another sector that Parrikar is responsible for, that sector has seen a sea change, I don't want to talk about that. This is probably our most important sector. More important than Rafale or P-15B or FGFA.

He must get a second term.



> He has actually sabotaged the P-15B, IAC-1, Scorpenes, and P-17A because of his blacklisting of OTO, WASS and SALEX which means their main guns (127mm), BLACK SHARK torpedoes and VSR (RAN-40L) aren't coming.



No, none of those programs have been compromised. Fin doesn't have a monopoly in defence, all their equipment can be replaced. Fin's CEO himself said the deals they had with India were insignificant. In fact, Fin's blacklisting was the best thing that's happened. 

Btw, Parrikar doesn't make the decision about such things. He can only initiate an investigation and the decision is made by the Law Ministry. And until CBI clears the company, Parrikar cannot do anything. There is a process to this. So don't hate on him for following procedures.

As far as India is concerned, only Russia and Israel have tech that is unique and have monopoly, all other countries and their companies are competing with each other. And Israel is grouped with Russia because they have offered tech the others have but have not offered.


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## Jai Bharat

Abingdonboy said:


> What is MP doing? Delay delay delay.
> 
> He said himself that the Rafale deal would be signed this month and now he is pushing it back?? He is fast losing any credibility he had built up by consistently over promising and under delivering and in the process making India look pathetic.



Might be waiting after NSG meeting for announcement. I have a feeling many foreign deals and exports such as Brahmos to Vietnam are under similar pressures with these international agreements and diplomacy, even if they are finalized.


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## Abingdonboy

Jai Bharat said:


> Might be waiting after NSG meeting for announcement. I have a feeling many foreign deals and exports such as Brahmos to Vietnam are under similar pressures with these international agreements and diplomacy, even if they are finalized.


The Rafale deal has nothing to do with the NSG membership.


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## Jai Bharat

Abingdonboy said:


> The Rafale deal has nothing to do with the NSG membership.



NSG membership has to do with convincing China to acede. I don't think announcing export of Brahmos missiles to Vietnam or purchase of Rafales on the eve of NSG is a move this government would want to take, Chinese still seem ambiguous on their decision. New government seems far more aware of international politics and diplomacy than any government before, doesn't want useless loud-mouthed Indian media needlessly hyping the deal as a counter to China. At least not when the NSG decision is so close. It is also telling that new Prahaar/Pragati test-launch was announced _immediately_ after MTCR accession, as it will be marketed for export now. I don't see why nuclear-capable Rafale that would be stationed on Eastern border would much different.


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## Abingdonboy

Jai Bharat said:


> NSG membership has to do with convincing China to acede. I don't think announcing export of Brahmos missiles to Vietnam or purchase of Rafales on the eve of NSG is a move this government would want to take, Chinese still seem ambiguous on their decision. New government seems far more aware of international politics and diplomacy than any government before, doesn't want useless loud-mouthed Indian media needlessly hyping the deal as a counter to China. At least not when the NSG decision is so close. It is also telling that new Prahaar/Pragati test-launch was announced _immediately_ after MTCR accession, as it will be marketed for export now. I don't see why nuclear-capable Rafale that would be stationed on Eastern border would much different.


The Rafale deal isn't linked to the NSG in anyway shape or form brother, trust me. Let's not make excuses for Parrikar's Anthony-like behaviour.


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## SR-91

Abingdonboy said:


> Just get the Rafales ordered (126++ units), the rest can be sorted later (American-Indo ties move VERY slowly because of the baggage of both sides)





Looks like India will eventually end up with Jets from all over the world.
Rafales from Europe
F18's-F35 and/or UCAV from USA
FGFA from Russia.

On a separate note....Delays in Deals.

We can bash Parrikar all we want but he's putting his country first rather than his own appearance in media.

Let's put ourselves in his shoes for a sec. The way I see it he has *THE MOST COMPLICATED* job on this planet right now. He has to deal with the blunders and massive negligence of the last 10 years.
Almost every project was running behind without the will to complete on time. Not only he has to deal with completing projects on time but also the CORE ISSUE of our Indian attitude of "chalta hai". That's a sea change in itself. What India can accomplish, in terms of high-tech high-quality, in next 10-15 years and he needs to condense all that in 5 years or so.

India will spend heavily on defense procurement and he needs to make the most out it. Rafale deal turned out to much bigger than everyone predicted. Parrikar needs to get everything right from the beginning. We need to give this guy a little more time. *Decisions he makes today will have its effects and consequences for decades to come.*

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## Jai Bharat

Abingdonboy said:


> The Rafale deal isn't linked to the NSG in anyway shape or form brother, trust me. Let's not make excuses for Parrikar's Anthony-like behaviour.



Don't crush my hopes of seeing Rafale contract signed after India joins NSG like that .

Would be funny if FGFA deal is signed before Rafale. Even more-so if it 's the promised US fighter-deal, that some on here talk about. Although I doubt any announcement on that front until post-2016 US Presidential elections, perhaps during a foreign visit of US president.


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## Abingdonboy

Jai Bharat said:


> Don't crush my hopes of seeing Rafale contract signed after India joins NSG like that .
> 
> Would be funny if FGFA deal is signed before Rafale. Even more-so if it 's the promised US fighter-deal, that some on here talk about. Although I doubt any announcement on that front until post-2016 US Presidential elections, perhaps during a foreign visit of US president.


I think India is still quite some distance away from joining the NSG and I expect the Rafale deal MUCH sooner (mext few weeks if Parrikar stops messing around). 

Where the US is concerned, I would steer well clear, they are barely offering high end tech, are not accepting India's demands and every single defence deal would be subject to their messy internal politics. As it stands their government is effectively paralysed for the next 18 months with the elections and bedding in process of the next POTUS. India can't afford to wait 2+ years.



SR-91 said:


> Looks like India will eventually end up with Jets from all over the world.
> Rafales from Europe
> F18's-F35 and/or UCAV from USA
> FGFA from Russia.
> 
> On a separate note....Delays in Deals.
> 
> We can bash Parrikar all we want but he's putting his country first rather than his own appearance in media.
> 
> Let's put ourselves in his shoes for a sec. The way I see it he has *THE MOST COMPLICATED* job on this planet right now. He has to deal with the blunders and massive negligence of the last 10 years.
> Almost every project was running behind without the will to complete on time. Not only he has to deal with completing projects on time but also the CORE ISSUE of our Indian attitude of "chalta hai". That's a sea change in itself. What India can accomplish, in terms of high-tech high-quality, in next 10-15 years and he needs to condense all that in 5 years or so.
> 
> India will spend heavily on defense procurement and he needs to make the most out it. Rafale deal turned out to much bigger than everyone predicted. Parrikar needs to get everything right from the beginning. We need to give this guy a little more time. *Decisions he makes today will have its effects and consequences for decades to come.*


I don't agree with your assessment of Parrikar brother. IMO he is putting his personal political ambitions in front of his country. I don't think Modi will put up with this nonsense for much longer especially when other ministries are performing flawlessly. There isn't much to show for Parrikar's tenure thus far.


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## Jai Bharat

Abingdonboy said:


> Where the US is concerned, I would steer well clear, they are barely offering high end tech, are not accepting India's demands and every single defence deal would be subject to their messy internal politics. As it stands their government is effectively paralysed for the next 18 months with the elections and bedding in process of the next POTUS. India can't afford to wait 2+ years.



We will see about that. US presidents are actually debriefed and prepared for their role even before election date, right after they are confirmed for the ballot which is little more than a month away from today. Hilary, the front-runner, is already very well experienced with executive leadership and has an ex-president Husband plus his advisors, I doubt she requires much time.

F-16/18 fighter lines are nearing their end, so cards will be with DM and private Cos. US almost certainly asked for some military sales as part of their diplomatic push for India. 

I suspect the current tousle is between F-16 and Gripen to complement Tejas LCA. LM offering the F-16/F-35 combo, with Saab offering Gripen/Co-operation with Tejas Mk2 and AMCA. While F-18 seems nowhere to be found, perhaps quietly bowed out like Eurofighter. Saab wouldn't be lobbying so hard if they had no chance, DM and IAF can tell them off anytime, they have chosen not to do so.

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## SR-91

Abingdonboy said:


> I think India is still quite some distance away from joining the NSG and I expect the Rafale deal MUCH sooner (mext few weeks if Parrikar stops messing around).
> 
> Where the US is concerned, I would steer well clear, they are barely offering high end tech, are not accepting India's demands and every single defence deal would be subject to their messy internal politics. As it stands their government is effectively paralysed for the next 18 months with the elections and bedding in process of the next POTUS. India can't afford to wait 2+ years.
> 
> 
> I don't agree with your assessment of Parrikar brother. IMO he is putting his personal political ambitions in front of his country. I don't think Modi will put up with this nonsense for much longer especially when other ministries are performing flawlessly. There isn't much to show for Parrikar's tenure thus far.




Think about it for sec bro, he was new at this position. It's natural for him to some time to understand this extraordinary position. Even then he was able to produce policies like OROP n DPP. He doesn't have a dozen of procurements but hundreds of them.

I wouldn't call him slow in decision making process but careful and calculated. Rafale deal is MASSIVE, just the planes will cost us close $30 billion. Who wouldn't wanna be a little more careful with that kind of money besides June is not done yet bro.

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## Abingdonboy

Jai Bharat said:


> We will see about that. US presidents are actually debriefed and prepared for their role even before election date, right after they are confirmed for the ballot which is little more than a month away from today. Hilary, the front-runner, is already very well experienced with executive leadership and has an ex-president Husband plus his advisors, I doubt she requires much time.
> 
> F-16/18 fighter lines are nearing their end, so cards will be with DM and private Cos. US almost certainly asked for some military sales as part of their diplomatic push for India.
> 
> I suspect the current tousle is between F-16 and Gripen to complement Tejas LCA. LM offering the F-16/F-35 combo, with Saab offering Gripen/Co-operation with Tejas Mk2 and AMCA. While F-18 seems nowhere to be found, perhaps quietly bowed out like Eurofighter. Saab wouldn't be lobbying so hard if they had no chance, DM and IAF can tell them off anytime, they have chosen not to do so.


The MoD has told the US they have no chance after SECDEF Carter's visit to India a couple of months back. The key issue of ToT, private Indian production partner tie ups and end user agreements were not resolved and it is now game over for them; they know that. The US hasn't even been able to get the highly watered down LEMOA signed thus far.


As for US presidential functioning, they won't be sworn in until Jan 20 2017, it will take 6-12 months to fully settle in and have their staff in place (from what I hear) and Indian defence deals will hardly be their first priority no matter who it is. Either way congressional approval will be a cog in the wheel any time India purchases from the US.


And have no doubt, the Gripen would kill off the LCA of it ever entered Indian service, no GoI would allow this now.



SR-91 said:


> Think about it for sec bro, he was new at this position. It's natural for him to some time to understand this extraordinary position. Even then he was able to produce policies like OROP n DPP. He doesn't have a dozen of procurements but hundreds of them.
> 
> I wouldn't call him slow in decision making process but careful and calculated. Rafale deal is MASSIVE, just the planes will cost us close $30 billion. Who wouldn't wanna be a little more careful with that kind of money besides June is not done yet bro.


Other ministers with equally large remits (if not more so) have performed FAR better. No sector was performing well when inherited from the UPA and whilst many (power, coal, railways, telecom, roads etc etc) have seen a HUGE uptake in their performance, defence is still lagging pathetically behind brother. The cost for the Rafale project is high but the issue is Parrikar is stalling on the G-G deal for 36 to be procured off the shelf, not the much larger MII deal (one can only imagine how delayed that deal would be under him) when it has been ready to be ordered for weeks (if not months ) now. IMO Parrikar is milking the most high profile deal he has (the Rafale) for all the publicity he can get to further his own ambitions. Look at the likes of minister Prabhu who is performing almost flawlessly with little fanfare or attention requested (he signed the $10BN USD GE and ALSTOM deals and is in the verge of signing the $30BN USD HSR project but there is almost no hype in the media or undue scrutiny because of the way he is operating).

Every day/week/month he delays the enemy grows stronger and the IAF grows weaker. I am yet to see the fruits of his technocratic nature thus far.


And don't get me started on the clearly political decision that was his blanket blacklisting of the entire Fin group that has hurt multiple mega defence projects badly.

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## BON PLAN

Piper said:


> I would wager that something sweet is cooking b/w LM and India, otherwise the delay serves no purpose.
> 
> As for French! Ils ont merdé quelque chose de bien. Their loss, our gain


Stop dreaming. LM is only there as a greyhound in the bargaining between India and DA/France. 
You are politically too instable (UAE didn't have the permission to use their F16'60 to fight in Lybia !), specially with a Donald Trump in the white house competition, to rely on.

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## Piper

BON PLAN said:


> Stop dreaming. LM is only there as a greyhound in the bargaining between India and DA/France.
> You are politically too instable (UAE didn't have the permission to use their F16'60 to fight in Lybia !), specially with a Donald Trump in the white house competition, to rely on.



Have a look at how many major defence deals we have closed with India in past 10 years and how many France has closed. That's the problem with Europe, you guys are too stubborn and lack that final push and leverage. US on the other hand as huge portfolio of economic, political and defense levers which present a irresistible bouquet to it's customers.

By the time deal for 36 Rafaels are done, if it is done, we would have sold many multiples in dollar amount of products to India including frontline fighter jets, logisitics and early warning platforms, drones, artillery, gunships, reactors among others. If India dithers then we simply pull the plug on it's greater geo-political aspirations.


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## randomradio

Piper said:


> If India dithers then we simply pull the plug on it's greater geo-political aspirations.



Like you have tried to do for the last 50 years and failed?

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## Piper

randomradio said:


> Like you have tried to do for the last 50 years and failed?



Did we? All India has, it has thanks to US. Without US there would be no nuclear waiver at NSG, No MTCR. All the UNSC and NSG hopes would not even have been born. Where was India before it's rapprochement with US? Dependent on aid and a minor league player even below Pakistan in almost all of development indicators. 

You don't have to like it, but India derives it legitimacy in Geopolitical arena largely due to US patronage behind the scenes. Soviets did just about enough to keep you barely alive, US is helping India thrive. Indian leaders know it and that is why your PM has dutifully visited four times in last two years, more than he has visited any other country. 

But remember, what US giveth, US can taketh away.

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## randomradio

Piper said:


> Did we? All India has, it has thanks to US. Without US there would be no nuclear waiver at NSG, No MTCR. All the UNSC and NSG hopes would not even have been born. Where was India before it's rapprochement with US? Dependent on aid and a minor league player even below Pakistan in almost all of development indicators.



India has never actually needed these in the first place. But no doubt it is nice to become a legitimate nuclear power.

India was as it is today before all of this. Nothing's changed on the ground.



> You don't have to like it, but India derives it legitimacy in Geopolitical arena largely due to US patronage behind the scenes. Soviets did just about enough to keep you barely alive, US is helping India thrive. Indian leaders know it and that is why your PM has dutifully visited four times in last two years, more than he has visited any other country.



You do realize that India is using the US because of the China-bogey, right?



> But remember, what US giveth, US can taketh away.



India is already part of MTCR, what will US taketh away? In case even the NSG deal is done, US cannot taketh away that either. Sure, we are grateful for what the US is doing, but you need to remember first and foremost that US is doing it out of its own geopolitical interest. The US wants a counterweight to China, you think Japan is your answer? Both India and the US need each other, what the US is doing is not charity. So the US cannot taketh away anything from India or the US will giveth away stuff to China. You never know when a new Cold War might start.

Even though India doesn't want it, the US is already treating India as an ally. So it's important to consider where your interests lie. The US cannot taketh away anything from India.

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## BON PLAN

Piper said:


> Have a look at how many major defence deals we have closed with India in past 10 years and how many France has closed. That's the problem with Europe, you guys are too stubborn and lack that final push and leverage. US on the other hand as huge portfolio of economic, political and defense levers which present a irresistible bouquet to it's customers.
> 
> By the time deal for 36 Rafaels are done, if it is done, we would have sold many multiples in dollar amount of products to India including frontline fighter jets, logisitics and early warning platforms, drones, artillery, gunships, reactors among others. If India dithers then we simply pull the plug on it's greater geo-political aspirations.


What your main customers buy appart weapons is your umbrella.
But India is not not Denmark, Korea or even Australia. They don't need your umbrella.

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## Dash

Abingdonboy said:


> The Rafale deal has nothing to do with the NSG membership.



May be there is. What if India is trying to assess what US could do for her? Orfor that matter anybody will?

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## randomradio

Dash said:


> May be there is. What if India is trying to assess what US could do for her? Orfor that matter anybody will?



The NSG has nothing to do with Rafale. CNC will be finishing negotiations this month and submit a report to Parrikar.

As for the US, Parrikar has asked the US companies to get all the tech they need to transfer cleared by the Congress first, and then talk to India. This way the Korean F-35 fiasco can be avoided.

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## Abingdonboy

Piper said:


> Have a look at how many major defence deals we have closed with India in past 10 years and how many France has closed. That's the problem with Europe, you guys are too stubborn and lack that final push and leverage. US on the other hand as huge portfolio of economic, political and defense levers which present a irresistible bouquet to it's customers.
> 
> By the time deal for 36 Rafaels are done, if it is done, we would have sold many multiples in dollar amount of products to India including frontline fighter jets, logisitics and early warning platforms, drones, artillery, gunships, reactors among others. If India dithers then we simply pull the plug on it's greater geo-political aspirations.


The US has some truly world class weapon systems but none of the equipment India has procured from the US has been "strategic" in nature. A frontline fighter jet is a VERY strategic asset, especially a MMRCA that is to be the IAF's premier STRIKE asset. There is no confidence within India that the US is a reliable enough partner to source such critical equipment from and thus the French (Rafale) is an easy solution. Considering the fact that part of the Rafale fleet will be dedicated to nuclear strike at any one time and there is ZERO chance US fighters would be sanctioned to do this it is a pretty clear cut case. There is no market in India for the US fighters and both sides now understand this thanks to the US's unwillingness to "play ball" earlier this year.

Yes, in dollar terms the US is probably only behind Russia in defence sales to India but that is a very superficial analysis.


The US needs India almost as much as India needs the US, you aren't going to bully them into doing what suits you of that you can be certain. Push too hard and India will push back.



Piper said:


> .
> 
> You don't have to like it, but India derives it legitimacy in Geopolitical arena largely due to US patronage behind the scenes. Soviets did just about enough to keep you barely alive, US is helping India thrive. Indian leaders know it and that is why your PM has dutifully visited four times in last two years, more than he has visited any other country.
> .


What kind of American exceptionalism drivel is this? India's entire legitimacy on the global arena is thanks to America? Yeah okay. Have fun convincing yourself of that.

If this is the kind off attitude US officials show India then no wonder they are returning home empty handed every single time they visit India despite huge bluster and hype in the lead up to their visits.


India can do just fine on its own, it is taking advantage of US "patronage" as it expedites India's interests but have no doubt everyone understands this is quid pro quo, the US is not doing anything with benevolent Intent. India is simp,y using the US's fears of China to further its own agenda.



BON PLAN said:


> Stop dreaming. LM is only there as a greyhound in the bargaining between India and DA/France.
> You are politically too instable (UAE didn't have the permission to use their F16'60 to fight in Lybia !), specially with a Donald Trump in the white house competition, to rely on.


EXACTLY. India doesn't have to look any further than its neighbour to see what a mess it would be getting itself into if it signed up for Aemrican fighters. The US is a useful partner to have but is FAR too unreliable to depend on for critical tech. Conversely France stepped up to the plate to support India during the 1999 kargil war, literally on a war footing.

India knows who its friends are.

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## Piper

Abingdonboy said:


> The US has some truly world class weapon systems but none of the equipment India has procured from the US has been "strategic" in nature. A frontline fighter jet is a VERY strategic asset, especially a MMRCA that is to be the IAF's premier STRIKE asset. There is no confidence within India that the US is a reliable enough partner to source such critical equipment from and thus the French (Rafale) is an easy solution. Considering the fact that part of the Rafale fleet will be dedicated to nuclear strike at any one time and there is ZERO chance US fighters would be sanctioned to do this it is a pretty clear cut case. There is no market in India for the US fighters and both sides now understand this thanks to the US's unwillingness to "play ball" earlier this year.
> 
> Yes, in dollar terms the US is probably only behind Russia in defence sales to India but that is a very superficial analysis.
> 
> 
> The US needs India almost as much as India needs the US, you aren't going to bully them into doing what suits you of that you can be certain. Push too hard and India will push back.
> 
> 
> What kind of American exceptionalism drivel is this? India's entire legitimacy on the global arena is thanks to America? Yeah okay. Have fun convincing yourself of that.
> 
> If this is the kind off attitude US officials show India then no wonder they are returning home empty handed every single time they visit India despite huge bluster and hype in the lead up to their visits.
> 
> 
> India can do just fine on its own, it is taking advantage of US "patronage" as it expedites India's interests but have no doubt everyone understands this is quid pro quo, the US is not doing anything with benevolent Intent. India is simp,y using the US's fears of China to further its own agenda.
> 
> 
> EXACTLY. India doesn't have to look any further than its neighbour to see what a mess it would be getting itself into if it signed up for Aemrican fighters. The US is a useful partner to have but is FAR too unreliable to depend on for critical tech. Conversely France stepped up to the plate to support India during the 1999 kargil war, literally on a war footing.
> 
> India knows who its friends are.



India is using US fear of China? While on planet earth - China is next door to India and US is continents away. Worst case scenario for US- We leaves you guys to fend for yourself. Worst case scenario for India - combined Sino-Pak invasion kicking Indian butt! and there is nothing India can do about it.

US is unreliable partner? Ask Taiwan! China is not able to gobble up that little fish just because of US umbrella. Ask Europe! We protected Europe for all of 4 decades from Soviet Juggernaut. Ask Ukraine! Had it not for shadow of US, Russia would have annexed all of Ukraine instead of a tiny piece of 90% Russian speaking Crimea and there is nothing they could do about it. Ask S. Korea! Why they sleep peacefully despite having a nuclear armed crazy next door!

As for US weapons and their reliability. Ask the saner members of Pakistan- There is a reason they swear by F-16s despite all said and done and the reason is that it is the fear of F-16 which keeps 100s of sukhois firmly on their side of the border.

Problem of being a smartass is that in the end you end being just an a*s.

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## randomradio

Piper said:


> Worst case scenario for US- We leaves you guys to fend for yourself.



It won't make a difference. We have always fended for ourselves. Did you know the US planned on attacking India in 1971? The British and American fleet backed off because the Soviet fleet had already reached India.



> Worst case scenario for India - combined Sino-Pak invasion kicking Indian butt! and there is nothing India can do about it.



We call that a two front war. China will have to invade India with more than 12 million men if they are to be successful. Mountain warfare is not easy.



> US is unreliable partner? Ask Taiwan! China is not able to gobble up that little fish just because of US umbrella. Ask Europe! We protected Europe for all of 4 decades from Soviet Juggernaut. Ask Ukraine! Had it not for shadow of US, Russia would have annexed all of Ukraine instead of a tiny piece of 90% Russian speaking Crimea and there is nothing they could do about it. Ask S. Korea! Why they sleep peacefully despite having a nuclear armed crazy next door!



All those countries are American allies. India is not.



> As for US weapons and their reliability. Ask the saner members of our Pakistan- There is a reason they swear by F-16s despite all said and done and the reason is that it is the fear of F-16 which keeps 100s of sukhois firmly on their side of the border.



A more advanced version of that aircraft did not even clear IAF trials. And both sane and insane members from Pakistan claim it's their nukes which keep 100s of Sukhois at bay, not the F-16s.



> Problem of being a smartass is that in the end you end being just an a*s.



You started it.

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## Perpendicular

Piper said:


> China is next door to India and US is continents away. Worst case scenario for US- We leaves you guys to fend for yourself.


There is no such thing as continents away, the moment chinese close that gap they are there, right at your door. US is here cause it doesn't want China to knock on its door first.


Piper said:


> US is unreliable partner?


Well, no body can answer that question of reliability better then our fellow pakistanis, year 1971, reliable seventh fleet.

This ain't pakistan or britain, America will learn it slowly, it takes time to adjust to new realities.

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## BON PLAN

Piper said:


> India is using US fear of China? While on planet earth - China is next door to India and US is continents away. Worst case scenario for US- We leaves you guys to fend for yourself. Worst case scenario for India - combined Sino-Pak invasion kicking Indian butt! and there is nothing India can do about it.
> 
> US is unreliable partner? Ask Taiwan! China is not able to gobble up that little fish just because of US umbrella. Ask Europe! We protected Europe for all of 4 decades from Soviet Juggernaut. Ask Ukraine! Had it not for shadow of US, Russia would have annexed all of Ukraine instead of a tiny piece of 90% Russian speaking Crimea and there is nothing they could do about it. Ask S. Korea! Why they sleep peacefully despite having a nuclear armed crazy next door!
> 
> As for US weapons and their reliability. Ask the saner members of Pakistan- There is a reason they swear by F-16s despite all said and done and the reason is that it is the fear of F-16 which keeps 100s of sukhois firmly on their side of the border.
> 
> Problem of being a smartass is that in the end you end being just an a*s.


Ask UAE about the NO GO for the use of F16'60 in Lybia in 2011 (but they used their Mirage 2000-9 instead. Thanks to... France !). 
Same about Egypt it seems.

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## Dash

randomradio said:


> The NSG has nothing to do with Rafale. CNC will be finishing negotiations this month and submit a report to Parrikar.
> 
> As for the US, Parrikar has asked the US companies to get all the tech they need to transfer cleared by the Congress first, and then talk to India. This way the Korean F-35 fiasco can be avoided.



I can agree only with a may be caluse.


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## SmilingBuddha

*Rafale deal to be finalized soon, says Manohar Parrikar*

1
0
1
2
Fri, 17 Jun 2016-10:00pm , Bengaluru (Karnataka) , ANI
Union Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Friday said the negotiations to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets were "on path of coming to conclusion".

Both sides hoped to wrap up the strategic order during French President Francois Hollande's visit for the Republic Day celebrations in January this year, but bargaining on price stalled a final result.

"When we have waited for 15-16 years? I think we are now on path of coming to conclusion," Parrikar told reporters in the Bengaluru after witnessing the inaugural flight session of indigenously built aircraft Hindustan Turbo Trainer 40 (HTT 40).

HTT-40 is a new basic training aircraft developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the Indian Air Force. Parrikar said the two sides were yet to arrive at a decision on pricing. "It's a big purchase we have to be careful and every 0.1 percent savings itself is a hundreds of crores. So let the exercise be done with some patience," he said.

Hollande and Prime Minister Narendra Modi intervened in the troubled Rafale procurement last year, ordering government-to-government talks after commercial negotiations with Dassault had collapsed. The leaders agreed to scale back an original plan to buy 126 Rafale planes to just 36 in fly-away condition to meet the Indian Air Force's urgent needs as it faces an assertive China and long-time foe Pakistan.

Source:
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-rafale-deal-to-be-finalized-soon-says-manohar-parrikar-2224882


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## Taygibay

Piper said:


> Ask Ukraine! Had it not for shadow of US, Russia would have annexed all of Ukraine instead of a tiny piece of 90% Russian speaking Crimea and there is nothing they could do about it.



Hum! Except for that pesky treaty which said :
2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or
political independence of Ukraine ...

and also

4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression ...

https://www.msz.gov.pl/en/p/wiedeno..._ukraine_s_accession_to_the_treaty_on_the_npt

So that mere lip service was paid to a promise that in exchange for abandoning its nukes under NPT rules,
Ukraine could count on the signatories to help it out as part of the Conference on Security and Cooperation
in Europe (CSCE).

Of course, Kiev was naïve to think that a UNSC in which Russia holds a veto would
do them any good even if America did bring the matter forward but still ...
definitely not the best example one could find to support the idea that the USA hold
their promises to say the least.

Just sayin' in passing cuz honestly this whole convo is a bit off-topic anyway, Tay.



SmilingBuddha said:


> Rafale deal to be finalized soon, says Manohar Parrikar



Yeah well, soon in IST is such an elusive timeframe.
Is the Rafale the successor of the Rukma Vimana for example?
That would make this procurement over 4,000 years long and counting!!! 
It would explain the insistence on MII because I'm not sure the Mérignac
line will still be open in the 22nd century ... 

Might as well re-open the tender and wait for the Enterprise that will start its
maiden voyage on Stardate 2245.04 before half of the 23rd century has passed?

Oh, well, just random thoughts on what soon means in this case.
Have agreat day all and keep smiling, Tay.

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Just sayin' in passing cuz honestly this whole convo is a bit off-topic anyway, Tay.




It all comes back to whether India can trust the US during times of trouble after having bought sanctionable material from them. The US is good to all its treaty allies, not to lip service allies.



> Yeah well, soon in IST is such an elusive timeframe.
> Is the Rafale the successor of the Rukma Vimana for example?
> That would make this procurement over 4,000 years long and counting!!!
> It would explain the insistence on MII because I'm not sure the Mérignac
> line will still be open in the 22nd century ...
> 
> Might as well re-open the tender and wait for the Enterprise that will start its
> maiden voyage on Stardate 2245.04 before half of the 23rd century has passed?
> 
> Oh, well, just random thoughts on what soon means in this case.
> Have agreat day all and keep smiling, Tay.



Vstol on IDF says the delay is because they are waiting for rains, the onset of monsoons.

Funny as it may sound, it is actually a pretty important reason. The CCS has not cleared any deal in months since April, which actually makes it true.

So the Enterprise will have to wait.


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## Piper

randomradio said:


> It all comes back to whether India can trust the US during times of trouble after having bought sanctionable material from them. The US is good to all its treaty allies, not to lip service allies.
> 
> 
> 
> Vstol on IDF says the delay is because they are waiting for rains, the onset of monsoons.
> 
> Funny as it may sound, it is actually a pretty important reason. The CCS has not cleared any deal in months since April, which actually makes it true.
> 
> So the Enterprise will have to wait.


become a treaty ally



Taygibay said:


> Hum! Except for that pesky treaty which said :
> 2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or
> political independence of Ukraine ...
> 
> and also
> 
> 4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression ...
> 
> https://www.msz.gov.pl/en/p/wiedeno..._ukraine_s_accession_to_the_treaty_on_the_npt
> 
> So that mere lip service was paid to a promise that in exchange for abandoning its nukes under NPT rules,
> Ukraine could count on the signatories to help it out as part of the Conference on Security and Cooperation
> in Europe (CSCE).
> 
> Of course, Kiev was naïve to think that a UNSC in which Russia holds a veto would
> do them any good even if America did bring the matter forward but still ...
> definitely not the best example one could find to support the idea that the USA hold
> their promises to say the least.
> 
> Just sayin' in passing cuz honestly this whole convo is a bit off-topic anyway, Tay.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah well, soon in IST is such an elusive timeframe.
> Is the Rafale the successor of the Rukma Vimana for example?
> That would make this procurement over 4,000 years long and counting!!!
> It would explain the insistence on MII because I'm not sure the Mérignac
> line will still be open in the 22nd century ...
> 
> Might as well re-open the tender and wait for the Enterprise that will start its
> maiden voyage on Stardate 2245.04 before half of the 23rd century has passed?
> 
> Oh, well, just random thoughts on what soon means in this case.
> Have agreat day all and keep smiling, Tay.



Treaties are only worth as much as the enforcing entity. The fact remains US is alone capable of that enforcement


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## SR-91

Taygibay said:


> Hum!
> *Yeah well, soon in IST is such an elusive timeframe.
> Is the Rafale the successor of the Rukma Vimana for example?
> That would make this procurement over 4,000 years long and counting!!!
> It would explain the insistence on MII because I'm not sure the Mérignac
> line will still be open in the 22nd century ...
> 
> Might as well re-open the tender and wait for the Enterprise that will start its
> maiden voyage on Stardate 2245.04 before half of the 23rd century has passed?
> 
> Oh, well, just random thoughts on what soon means in this case.*
> Have agreat day all and keep smiling, Tay.



Tay sir..WOW..in trolling mode today???


It was our upset buddy @Abingdonboy yesterday, now U too??

What the hellllll, I'll troll some too.

Parrikar has been sitting on this Rafale deal for so longgg...... that the crack in his AS$, ............... Is now GONE.

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## PARIKRAMA

It's a game of patience where one side will end up being a mental patient.

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## randomradio

Piper said:


> become a treaty ally



Why?

Alliances are made for mutually beneficial causes. There is none when it comes to China. We are not China's enemies, we are only competitive with each other and we have a small border issue which both countries have said they want to resolve at the earliest. If that's done, China and India will have no reason to fight, ever.

China does not have the military strength to defeat India and vice versa. And even if a war happened, the objectives China or India want are too insignificant to fight for. It's just a bunch of rocks, no major resources and extremely inhospitable terrain. So the incentive to fight doesn't exist beyond a prestige/ego issue. In fact I won't be surprised if China and India sign a non-aggression pact over the next 10 years.

NATO was formed to counter the Soviet threat in Europe, India has no such overwhelming enemy at its doorstep.

Anyway, it is India's policy to be non-aligned. Any military benefits with the US is technological and business oriented which makes an alliance treaty unnecessary.

The US wants to arm India only so India can police the Asia Pacific region and be capable of getting into an arms race with China without problems. If the US manages to do that, they have won. But that's also India's objective. As long as this equation is not broken, India and the US will be on amicable terms. And the US is interested in making money while they are at it. So that should be enough.

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## SR-91

PARIKRAMA said:


> It's a game of patience where one side will end up being a mental patient.



@PARIKRAMA bro, u have sir @Taygibay permission to troll, but only on FRIDAYS.

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## [Bregs]

PARIKRAMA said:


> It's a game of patience where one side will end up being a mental patient.



very well summarized in one line, how a deal shall not be made the rafale saga is glaring example of that

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## Abingdonboy

Piper said:


> India is using US fear of China? While on planet earth - China is next door to India and US is continents away.


The US is paranoid about losing its undisputed postion as the sole global "superpower" and has been projecting any "up and comer" as a threat to its supremacy for the past 100 or so years, previously it was Germany, then the USSR, then Japan (1980s), now China, down the line it could be India.

It is not a controversial statement to say the US public are fundamentally threatened by the "rise" of China, the extent to the valididty of this threat is debateble but this is the perception. 



Piper said:


> Worst case scenario for India - combined Sino-Pak invasion kicking Indian butt! and there is nothing India can do about it.


India can (and is) build up its own abilities to fend off a combined Sino-Pak fight without the US's involvement. 



Piper said:


> US is unreliable partner? Ask Taiwan! China is not able to gobble up that little fish just because of US umbrella. Ask Europe! We protected Europe for all of 4 decades from Soviet Juggernaut. Ask Ukraine! Had it not for shadow of US, Russia would have annexed all of Ukraine instead of a tiny piece of 90% Russian speaking Crimea and there is nothing they could do about it. Ask S. Korea! Why they sleep peacefully despite having a nuclear armed crazy next door!


A one off example that is hardly representative of how the US treats all of its "friends". I am not claiming that the US is any different to any other nation simply that it protects its own interests and most of the US's interests are not those of India so India would be foolish to climb into bed with a notoriously fair weather friend.



Piper said:


> As for US weapons and their reliability. Ask the saner members of Pakistan- There is a reason they swear by F-16s despite all said and done and the reason is that it is the fear of F-16 which keeps 100s of sukhois firmly on their side of the border.





Piper said:


> Problem of being a smartass is that in the end you end being just an a*s.


No aguments from me here.

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## noksss

HYDERABAD: *Defence deals, unlike purchase of televisions or mobile phones, are not made overnight and take "a lot of time" owing to bureaucratic procedures, defence minister Manohar Parrikar said on Saturday*.

Speaking at a function here, Parrikar noted that sometimes, in the bureaucracy, those who do not understand anything about the product, deal with their procurement.

"Things do take time in defence (deals). Even if I make an order, it does not happen overnight because it requires time to mature. Army items are not procured off the shelf like you buy a TV or a mobile, like you walk into a shop and come out with the product," he said.

*"To place a defence order, it takes a hell lot of time. With every Tom, Dick and Harry sitting in the department ... those who do not understand anything about actual product asking some vague questions, sometimes funny questions, also sometimes relevant questions. After he satisfies himself he gets transferred and somebody else comes in and raises different kind of queries again ... it takes lot of time," Parrikar said.*
The defence minister was speaking at the foundation-laying ceremony of a new facility here for Tata Boeing Aerospace Limited (TBAL), a joint venture between Boeing and Tata Advanced Systems.
*Parrikar said the government's emphasis was on skill development programmes for aviation sector, and it was working with Boeing towards that.*

The minister, who in the morning visited T-Hub, a technological incubator started by the Telangana government, interacted with the budding entrepreneurs there.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...rnight-says-Parrikar/articleshow/52810630.cms

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## Taygibay

noksss said:


> "Things do take time in defence (deals). Even if I make an order, it does not happen overnight because it requires time to mature. Army items are not procured off the shelf like you buy a TV or a mobile, like you walk into a shop and come out with the product," he said.
> 
> 
> *"To place a defence order, it takes a hell lot of time. With every Tom, Dick and Harry sitting in the department ... those who do not understand anything about actual product asking some vague questions, sometimes funny questions, also sometimes relevant questions. After he satisfies himself he gets transferred and somebody else comes in and raises different kind of queries again ... it takes lot of time," Parrikar said.*



Three things :
A- A jet is not a watermelon nor a child; that maturing thing is nonsense. Other countries do it faster, period!

B- *If you do have people asking stupid questions all through your department, it's poorly run, period!*

C- Once again Parrikar has his mouth running to give details and excuses; how about working for real?

That is what a DM looks like :











​Follow your troops and sign contracts!
The rest is gesturing and posturing ...
the usual BS politicians do on average.

If he likes mikes and cameras so much, 
he should have his own TV show ...
Oh wait, that's someone else entirely ...



​or is it?​
There are countries with DMs who few here would know the names of that do a better job at procurements.
That simple! Sorry to say, Tay.

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Three things :
> A- A jet is not a watermelon nor a child; that maturing thing is nonsense. Other countries do it faster, period!
> 
> B- *If you do have people asking stupid questions all through your department, it's poorly run, period!*
> 
> C- Once again Parrikar has his mouth running to give details and excuses; how about working for real?
> 
> That is what a DM looks like :
> 
> 
> View attachment 311528
> 
> 
> View attachment 311529
> 
> ​Follow your troops and sign contracts!
> The rest is gesturing and posturing ...
> the usual BS politicians do on average.
> 
> If he likes mikes and cameras so much,
> he should have his own TV show ...
> Oh wait, that's someone else entirely ...
> 
> 
> View attachment 311531
> ​or is it?​
> There are countries with DMs who few here would know the names of that do a better job at procurements.
> That simple! Sorry to say, Tay.



He's cleared $30B in sales in the first 11 months since he came to power, out of a total of $47B. Out of that the CCS has cleared, from our estimates, more than $20B, all under Parrikar. We don't know how much more he's cleared since then.

What most people don't know is about the sectors he's cleared a lot of those deals in. Most of those are not for media release. People only see artillery guns, ammunition, AWACS, transport aircraft, helicopters, ships etc, but that's the only aspects really covered by the media. They forget that India has far more important conventional weapons requirements.

He's also improved the bureaucracy. The very fact that he is talking about it shows that he's working to fix it. Plus, the new DPP is his, which is slowly headed to become the most successful defence manufacturing program in the country's history.

Basically, for people who know what he's been doing, he's done an amazing job. Le Drian's job is far easier by comparison.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...-india-programme-parrikar-116061800491_1.html


> "We are in the process of putting up 2-3 different projects in Make In India (programme), which will require environment creation and skilled manpower...I expect in the current financial year we should deliver a lot of such decisions of the government that we can see really ' Make In India' happening in large scale by the end of 2016-17," Minister Parrikar said.



Prepare to go blind by seeing what's coming up over the next 1 year.

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## topgun047

Even if Parrikar is an inefficient moron, it's India's loss.Why are you crying over it ?

India will buy your super duper competent omni role phalana dhimka jet if and when it decides to.
Capiche?
I don't see any Indian herebitching about France's (in)famous Labour laws or the legendary 35 hour work week.


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## zebra7

Taygibay said:


> Three things :
> A- A jet is not a watermelon nor a child; that maturing thing is nonsense. Other countries do it faster, period!
> 
> B- *If you do have people asking stupid questions all through your department, it's poorly run, period!*
> 
> C- Once again Parrikar has his mouth running to give details and excuses; how about working for real?
> 
> That is what a DM looks like :
> 
> 
> View attachment 311528
> 
> 
> View attachment 311529
> 
> ​Follow your troops and sign contracts!
> The rest is gesturing and posturing ...
> the usual BS politicians do on average.
> 
> If he likes mikes and cameras so much,
> he should have his own TV show ...
> Oh wait, that's someone else entirely ...
> 
> 
> View attachment 311531
> ​or is it?​
> There are countries with DMs who few here would know the names of that do a better job at procurements.
> That simple! Sorry to say, Tay.



Not going into the Details, but only to the point

1. No single man not even PM Modi can make the decission of Deal, without following the procedure of procurement.

2. Rafale Deal, is more of Stratagic Deal, which many more things than Rafale itself.

3. Defence Minister Parrikar is not responsible for the security of India, its the Secretary of Defence.

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## zebra7

topgun047 said:


> Even if Parrikar is an inefficient moron, it's India's loss.Why are you crying over it ?
> 
> India will buy your super duper competent omni role phalana dhimka jet if and when it decides to.
> Capiche?
> I don't see any Indian herebitching about France's (in)famous Labour laws or the legendary 35 your work week.



Patience, rest assure everything would be fine.


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## Taygibay

Signing of defence acquisitions is not linear; not all are equal accomplishments.

Buying in-house is ridiculously simple. Check how many contracts the US does
on a nearly daily basis. If that is difficult, you're doomed so no credit given there.

Buying when you have little or no choice is also not a performance marker. For
example, buying E-2s for our navy is a no-brainer as alternatives don't exist ...
and buying a few Hercs in a rush because Airbus can't deliver in time is too.

And extensions on existing deals ( say MKI ) are no great achievements either.

And some deals are political.

Only the big foreign deals count to the DM's credit.

​I care because I have Indian friends and also because I have an interest in all
armed forces. Comparing to non-mil matters is disingenuous but just for the sake
of answering honestly, I have a lower opinion of my President than of your DM
and you're welcome to add reasoned remarks to fuel my rhetoric if you can.

Still, a cry-baby call like : "India will buy ... (any) ... jet if and when it decides to."
should be cause for a historical cheer - Remember the M2000! - as in Remember the Alamo.
Time is stretchable in India and in space at high speeds but not elsewhere &
when military personnel lives depend on timely acquisitions, failing to procure
is endangering them. I root for Indian servicemen cuz I never was DM myself.

If you love your country, may I suggest taking care of it before b1tch1ng others?


​1- Entirely right! But the local corollary seems to be : One has to wonder if anyone can.

2- And time plays no part in strategy? Should France acquire more machine guns
to defend the Verdun trenches and refurbish the Maginot line in case the Germans
attack? The Cold war is over too ... strategy for yesterday is no help tomorrow.
That's why such things as Transformation Command exist! Even slow NATO got it.

3- ... while nearly every other land, functional ones at the very least, have one post
for that job. Maybe a second overseer is BS? Maybe it explains a lot? Oh! Of course,
it provides one more Babu position to fill someone's pockets. I am sincerely more
worried about the Indian soldiers having enough bullet proof vests than about ...
any/all of the bureaucrats having a pay check, simply because I empathize with the
former and not the latter.

In general, excuses over results make me sick to my stomach, for both war and peace!
Everywhere too! Take a line from America's book : There are no problems, only solutions!
It's a much better attitude than the reverse!

Good luck to all and good day to those who want it, Tay.

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## BON PLAN

topgun047 said:


> Even if Parrikar is an inefficient moron, it's India's loss.Why are you crying over it ?
> 
> India will buy your super duper competent omni role phalana dhimka jet if and when it decides to.
> Capiche?
> I don't see any Indian herebitching about France's (in)famous Labour laws or the legendary 35 hour work week.


You're right.

but....

Even with only 35 hours a week work duration, french workers has one (if not THE one) of the best efficiency in the world.



Taygibay said:


> I have a lower opinion of my President than of your DM


So I am.

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## Taygibay

BON PLAN said:


> Even with only 35 hours a week work duration, french workers has one (if not THE one) of the best efficiency in the world.



And in reference to this pseudo-potential Raffy deal,
the proof was made at the end of the MMRCA saga
when the GoI discovered that HAL would require so
much more time that in the end labor costs would be
high enough to constitute a sticking point ...

which some now conveniently forget.

 Tay.


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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Signing of defence acquisitions is not linear; not all are equal accomplishments.
> 
> Buying in-house is ridiculously simple. Check how many contracts the US does
> on a nearly daily basis. If that is difficult, you're doomed so no credit given there.
> 
> Buying when you have little or no choice is also not a performance marker. For
> example, buying E-2s for our navy is a no-brainer as alternatives don't exist ...
> and buying a few Hercs in a rush because Airbus can't deliver in time is too.
> 
> And extensions on existing deals ( say MKI ) are no great achievements either.
> 
> And some deals are political.
> 
> Only the big foreign deals count to the DM's credit.



You will be surprised to know how bad the UPA was in buying in-house, let alone from outside.

Except for one sector, most of India's purchases were not in-house. Two more Phalcons in a new deal. Apache and Chinook, C-295, they are all from outside. Apache and Chinook came from tenders and were signed under the BJP while C-17, P-8I and C-130 were FMS deals under the UPA. The credit goes to Parrikar for not having canceled the helicopter tenders, like it was the case with all other helicopter tenders.

Similarly, the multi-billion dollar deals between Reliance and the Russian arms industry for ships and missiles are also Parrikar's.

The extension to MKI was done by the UPA, the last one in 2012. Otoh, the S-400 and the new contract for FGFA with new configuration, new timetable and reduced price are Parrikar's.

So, except for the non-import sector, all other deals are Parrikar's. In that sense, though Modi initiated it, the Rafale deal is also Parrikar's since he was the one who added the new configuration, offsets and MII. He was the one who added industrial production under offsets. Modi had negotiated only for the existing F3+ configuration as flyaway, with no offsets, no industrial production, no MII etc.

As for bullet proof jackets, all the national and international companies that participated flunked trials. So Parrikar made the decision to order 50,000 dated jackets from 2 companies in just a month as an emergency purchase. Right now, only DRDO is developing a new jacket that would match IA's requirement. Similarly, the rifle tender was also withdrawn because all the international companies flunked trials. DRDO claims to have developed a rifle that matches the requirements.

You can't blame Parrikar if the companies themselves flunk trials.

You are being taken for a ride by the anti-French lobby in the Indian media and you are happy to be on that ride because you 'believe' the Rafale is getting a stepmotherly treatment by Parrikar, which is far from the truth. Anybody who has 'seriously' followed the Rafale deal knows that it actually thrives because of Parrikar and not Modi.

MMRCA was canceled because the UPA had introduced very damaging clauses to the deal. Those clauses are now under investigation. And Parrikar didn't like Modi's Rafale deal because it added nothing to the Indian industry and was done without taking into consideration his new DPP-2016.

IAF wanted to expand the old 36 F3+ deal to 80 and Parrikar put them in their place. After that Parrikar introduced 90 more jets to the IAF under his new DPP, gave the industry about $2.5-3B in investments and new technologies. Even the latest proposal for 54 more jets to the IN was Parrikar's. IN had not even proposed that to Parrikar, this was Parrikar's initiative. Now, the 36 jets deal has become 54 jets, 36 for the IAF and 18 for the IN, the media haven't yet told you this, have they?

Parrikar is waiting for the navy to finish and submit their tech report in order to either buy the Rafales from France or MII, all depending on the numbers that the navy needs. Feel different about Parrikar now?

As of today, all defence and non-defence deals are on hold because India has had two major droughts and they are waiting for a good monsoon season. No deal has been signed since April, the start of the fiscal year.



Taygibay said:


> And in reference to this pseudo-potential Raffy deal,
> the proof was made at the end of the MMRCA saga
> when the GoI discovered that HAL would require so
> much more time that in the end labor costs would be
> high enough to constitute a sticking point ...
> 
> which some now conveniently forget.
> 
> Tay.



The HAL problem was very different. HAL didn't want to invest in automation for Rafale, they wanted to use manpower. Being a PSU, they hire more manpower than necessary. They also wanted to use non-French CNC equipment which would have lead to extra costs and delay in certification.

The cost in acquiring automation would have offset the cost of manpower. But what HAL didn't consider is that automation would have been faster and more efficient than manpower. So HAL planned to introduce three shifts which jacked up costs. All of this could have been fixed during CNC stage at the secretary level.

The MMRCA was canceled because of UPA's bureaucratic procedures where they wanted to restart the L1 procedure after the CNC stage was done. Parrikar found that unacceptable.

Did you know that the 36 aircraft GTG deal and the MMRCA deal were supposed to go hand-in-hand? While Parrikar was trying to deal with MMRCA, Modi had capitulated under IAF pressure for immediate induction of 2 squadrons. This led to friction, but contrary to media reports, Parrikar rose above it and made the Rafale his own by canceling MMRCA, changing the terms of the GTG deal and adding MII to it, basically making the entire deal better.


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## Taygibay

To all following this convo, let's be blunt : 

“Our Tejas has the same qualities as Rafale. Although Tejas is in lightweight category, with its range also half compared with Rafale, but in terms of avionics, electronics and firepower it is no less than Rafale,” he said.

idrw.org . Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website , Kindly don't post our articles on other copycat websites http://idrw.org/first-tejas-squadron-to-fly-before-diwali-manohar-parrikar/ .

Anyone who says that with a straight face is either not qualified ( i.e. a mil avia nincompoop )
or lying outright for political reasons.

You pick which, I'm done for now!

Tay.

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> To all following this convo, let's be blunt :
> 
> “Our Tejas has the same qualities as Rafale. Although Tejas is in lightweight category, with its range also half compared with Rafale, but in terms of avionics, electronics and firepower it is no less than Rafale,” he said.
> 
> idrw.org . Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website , Kindly don't post our articles on other copycat websites http://idrw.org/first-tejas-squadron-to-fly-before-diwali-manohar-parrikar/ .
> 
> Anyone who says that with a straight face is either not qualified ( i.e. a mil avia nincompoop )
> or lying outright for political reasons.
> 
> You pick which, I'm done for now!
> 
> Tay.



It's for domestic consumption, why are you worried about that? It takes media pressure off of the program.

He has justified the induction of both systems, so it works in your (France's) favour.

Anyway, all leaders of all countries say their stuff is the best. What's wrong with that?


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## PARIKRAMA

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/744569729650593792

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/744237574202392577

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## Jai Bharat

^

As we approach the July date for the first squadron of Tejas, expect there to be more 'pushes' and presstitute nonsense. 

If Tejas makes a good impression on IAF, one can only hope that another manufacturing line run by Private Sector can get the green signal. 40 Tejas planes rolling out a year by 2020 would be game-changing, and completely eliminate the need for another foreign line apart from Rafale and FGFA.

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## PARIKRAMA

Jai Bharat said:


> ^
> 
> As we approach the July date for the first squadron of Tejas, expect there to be more 'pushes' and presstitute nonsense.
> 
> If Tejas makes a good impression on IAF, one can only hope that another manufacturing line run by Private Sector can get the green signal. 40 Tejas planes rolling out a year by 2020 would be game-changing, and completely eliminate the need for another foreign line apart from Rafale and FGFA.











https://defence.pk/threads/can-grip...xist-in-indian-air-force.435137/#post-8385659

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 311840
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/can-grip...xist-in-indian-air-force.435137/#post-8385659


For the love of god just do it! THIS (only LCA, Rafale and FGFA inductions from now on with the AMCA in the long run also joining the mix) is undeniably the optimal scenario for both an industry and operational point of view and it seems this is the plan being worked out and then Parrikar comes out and says something that entirely undermines this or we hear nonsensical speculation about a Gripen/F-16/F-18/F-35 purchase.

Ramp up LCA production ASAP ( an additional line run by L&T would be ideal), get the Rafale line set up in India and once the FGFA is fully developed switch the Nasik plant over to churning them out but keep MKIs flowing from it until then ). In 10 years India can have the strongest airforce in Asia and perhaps be only second to the USAF (in terms of outright capabilities and its qualitative edge) if this is followed, why mess about with all the other nonsense???

It really is VERY simple but since when does India "do" simple?

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## PARIKRAMA

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/744803145558069252




Looks like livefist and shiv aroor backing only US and Sweden now.

@Abingdonboy @Taygibay @MilSpec @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @anant_s @Vauban @BON PLAN
@zebra7

Strange how Rafale is omitted or is it the insider view which is being leaked..

Or again yellow journalism..if it's yellow, damn they gt livefist and shiv too... Now that's some serious pulling to color opinions and build support base...

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## Nimitam

PARIKRAMA said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/744803145558069252
> View attachment 311920
> 
> Looks like livefist and shiv aroor backing only US and Sweden now.
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @MilSpec @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @anant_s @Vauban @BON PLAN
> @zebra7
> 
> Strange how Rafale is omitted or is it the insider view which is being leaked..
> 
> Or again yellow journalism..if it's yellow, damn they gt livefist and shiv too... Now that's some serious pulling to color opinions and build support base...



You are mistaken, Rafale is omitted because decision on Rafale is already taken. 

This is for the 2nd MMRCA line that is being seriously considered and they represent the 3 100% Make In India offers that is with the GoI. 

Of which F18, Grippen and LCA use the same/similar engine.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/744803145558069252
> View attachment 311920
> 
> Looks like livefist and shiv aroor backing only US and Sweden now.
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @MilSpec @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @anant_s @Vauban @BON PLAN
> @zebra7
> 
> Strange how Rafale is omitted or is it the insider view which is being leaked..
> 
> Or again yellow journalism..if it's yellow, damn they gt livefist and shiv too... Now that's some serious pulling to color opinions and build support base...


What a complete idiot he and every other Indian journalist is (or perhaps they are just paid off by the competition?). Not a single one of these clowns has reported that Dassualt is setting up a production line in India despite this coming straight from the horse's mouth (Trappier). 


Every single report I see is still erroneously stating the Rafale deal has been scaled down to 36. 

There is nothing new to what Shiv Aroor is stating, it has been repeated again and again in e past year about this so-called "MMRCA 2.0". 


@PARIKRAMA you know my views on this bro, I've stated it above. I don't understand why the hell Parrikar is playing these games, he has confirmed himself the Rafale is coming so why is a second MMRCA on the table? It is simply mind blowing how little journalism is being conducted on this matter. Why is no one asking why the IAF could be operating 2 MMRCAs? Why three fighters that failed the IAF's technical criteria are once again being offered? Is the IAF accepting this? How will India secure American fighters when ToT is not on the table and when the end user agreements are not acceptable to the Indian side? 

Not one of these questions have been raised let alone answered. 

Again, these journalists are either embarrassingly incompetent or have other interests mind. Sometimes it feels like all they are are SAAB/Boeing/LM salesmen. 


"award winning" defence blog my a$$

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> What a complete idiot he and every other Indian journalist is (or perhaps they are just paid off by the competition?). Not a single one of these clowns has reported that Dassualt is setting up a production line in India despite this coming straight from the horse's mouth (Trappier).
> 
> 
> Every single report I see is still erroneously stating the Rafale deal has been scaled down to 36.
> 
> There is nothing new to what Shiv Aroor is stating, it has been repeated again and again in e past year about this so-called "MMRCA 2.0".
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA you know my views on this bro, I've stated it above. I don't understand why the hell Parrikar is playing these games, he has confirmed himself the Rafale is coming so why is a second MMRCA on the table? It is simply mind blowing how little journalism is being conducted on this matter. Why is no one asking why the IAF could be operating 2 MMRCAs? Why three fighters that failed the IAF's technical criteria are once again being offered? Is the IAF accepting this? How will India secure American fighters when ToT is not on the table and when the end user agreements are not acceptable to the Indian side?
> 
> Not one of these questions have been raised let alone answered.
> 
> Again, these journalists are either embarrassingly incompetent or have other interests mind. Sometimes it feels like all they are are SAAB/Boeing/LM salesmen.
> 
> 
> "award winning" defence blog my a$$



Actually I posted it here for only one reason.

The systematic campaign against Rafale and earning $$$ via sponsorship of Saab, LM or Boeing seems to have become the best way for all defense reporters and blogs.

No doubt there is a possibility of second aircraft plan for India but that may finally boil down combat hawk or a weaponsied HTT40. Or may be Vstol LSA

The private line of LCA for MK2 is a strong possibility as well.

It is interesting to note that shiv took the bait...

The 16 --35 plan,18 100% FDI and later Tata JV point, Saab Mumbai meeting of Sweden PM with NaMo and their insistence on 100% FDI route, all r here in this thread..

Yet we never dismissed Dassault at all bcz things have been clear and yes Trappier had done a great thing of stating a clear obvious thing and not going media overdrive.

I am wondering what next... Maybe Idrw should see some more "my take" opinions as well..

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## Stephen Cohen

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA 

The latest news in the last HOUR is about 100 Percent FDI in Defence and other sectors

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## Taygibay

http://in.reuters.com/article/india-markets-rajan-rexit-idINKCN0Z608J

Shoot, another excuse ... err, sorry, delay in perspective! 
What next, a drop in cotton, clothing and drug prices? OMG!


 Tay.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> .
> 
> No doubt there is a possibility of second aircraft plan for India but that may finally boil down combat hawk or a weaponsied HTT40. Or may be Vstol LSA
> 
> ..





PARIKRAMA said:


> .
> The Combat Hawk could be a nice addition to the IAF if they can fit the HELINA to it. That said, I don't see how much demand there is for such a machine with such limited capabilities, maybe 2 SQNs worth?
> 
> It is interesting to note that shiv took the bait...
> 
> The 16 --35 plan,18 100% FDI and later Tata JV point, Saab Mumbai meeting of Sweden PM with NaMo and their insistence on 100% FDI route, all r here in this thread..
> 
> Yet we never dismissed Dassault at all bcz things have been clear and yes Trappier had done a great thing of stating a clear obvious thing and not going media overdrive.
> ..


That's the problem, paid off or just Unfathomably lazy and incompetent, the media has reported the SAAB/LM/Boeing offers day and night and not ONE of them, NOT ONE, as devouted a single line to the Dassualt deal for MII which is far more advanced in progression than any other OEM. 

It's like the Indian media are trying to convince us it is night time when the sun is glaring down on us at high noon and the troubling part is how many non-defence enthusiasts will simply swallow this. 


I'm not one for conspiracy theories but something stinks about this @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil

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## Stephen Cohen

Taygibay said:


> http://in.reuters.com/article/india-markets-rajan-rexit-idINKCN0Z608J
> 
> Shoot, another excuse ... err, sorry, delay in perspective!
> What next, a drop in cotton, clothing and drug prices? OMG!
> 
> 
> Tay.



These news channels are only creating an un necessary controversy 

The exit of Central Bank governor is immaterial and will have no effect on Rafale deal

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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> http://in.reuters.com/article/india-markets-rajan-rexit-idINKCN0Z608J
> 
> Shoot, another excuse ... err, sorry, delay in perspective!
> What next, a drop in cotton, clothing and drug prices? OMG!
> 
> 
> Tay.


Markets fluctuate on a daily basis, after the opening losses the market rallied and gained 241 points to end 68 points higher by end of play. 

I don't see these inherently short term non-events have any affect on deals of this scale. Exchange rates, payback periods and terms are all agreed and fixed at the earliest and are set in stone from there so as to negate any such daily fluctuations.



Stephen Cohen said:


> @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA
> 
> The latest news in the last HOUR is about 100 Percent FDI in Defence and other sectors


https://defence.pk/threads/breaking...nd-civil-aviation-sector.435645/#post-8395712

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## Nimitam

Taygibay said:


> http://in.reuters.com/article/india-markets-rajan-rexit-idINKCN0Z608J
> 
> Shoot, another excuse ... err, sorry, delay in perspective!
> What next, a drop in cotton, clothing and drug prices? OMG!
> 
> Tay.



I suggest you wait for our phone call like a good salesman. Stop whining at our doorstep  

We will call you when we are good and ready. Get it ?

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## Taygibay

Nimitam said:


> We will call you when we are good and ready. Get it ?



No problemo amigo ... but as said earlier, we may not be making Raffys
anymore _by then_.

Oh, and I don't work for any involved firm and a shower might wash off
that superior tone fer ya, 

But good day to you in the end, Tay.

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## Abingdonboy

Nimitam said:


> I suggest you wait for our phone call like a good salesman. Stop whining at our doorstep
> 
> We will call you when we are good and ready. Get it ?


No need for such a sour tone here brother.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> That's the problem, paid off or just Unfathomably lazy and incompetent, the media has reported the SAAB/LM/Boeing offers day and night and not ONE of them, NOT ONE, as devouted a single line to the Dassualt deal for MII which is far more advanced in progression than any other OEM.
> 
> It's like the Indian media are trying to convince us it is night time when the sun is glaring down on us at high noon and the troubling part is how many non-defence enthusiasts will simply swallow this.
> 
> 
> I'm not one for conspiracy theories but something stinks about this @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil


Shiv was denied a back seat for a Rafale test and since he is constantly criticizing.

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## Nimitam

Taygibay said:


> No problemo amigo ... but as said earlier, we may not be making Raffys
> anymore by then.
> 
> Oh, and I don't work for any involved firm and a shower might wash off
> that superior tone fer ya,
> 
> But good day to you in the end, Tay.



Good that you have no problem, you can now stop your whining with good reason. 

If you are not making Raffy anymore by then we will go to the next seller..... amigo. 

My superior tone is an echo of your arrogance. ........... as for a shower, we Indians take a shower daily and that is why we do not have a thriving perfume industry amigo. Good day to you too.



Abingdonboy said:


> No need for such a sour tone here brother.



Nope, I think its about time someone took that tone to put an end to the BS.

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## Stephen Cohen

Taygibay said:


> No problemo amigo ... but as said earlier, we may not be making Raffys
> anymore by then.



Sir The Rafale decision will happen soon and if the Mirage 2000 history is any indicator
India will be a BIG customer of the Rafale 

All the news suggests that Rafale deal is in the final phase ; the other deals and offers
will Not affect it 

At least 54 ( 36 + 18 ) will come if not more

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## Taygibay

Nimitam said:


> is an echo of your arrogance.



So pointing out mistakes ( such as procurement fiascos, ask any one from outside Bharat ) is
arrogance? Then you are in an unfixable jam, my poor fellow! Stuck in a rut, a temporal drift ...

And you must have missed those posts where I specifically mentioned that my comments held
true even if you replaced the Rafale with another jet which sadly they do ...

Calm down, you have less enemies than you think, Tay.

P.S. I know StephenC, I was answering tongue in cheek.

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## mike2000 is back

Nimitam said:


> Good that you have no problem, you can now stop your whining with good reason.
> 
> If you are not making Raffy anymore by then we will go to the next seller..... amigo.
> 
> My superior tone is an echo of your arrogance. ........... as for a shower, we Indians take a shower daily and that is why we do not have a thriving perfume industry amigo. Good day to you too.
> .


Hahaha......LMAO
That was epic

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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> Sir The Rafale decision will happen soon and if the Mirage 2000 history is any indicator
> India will be a BIG customer of the Rafale
> 
> All the news suggests that Rafale deal is in the final phase ; the other deals and offers
> will Not affect it
> 
> At least 54 ( 36 + 18 ) will come if not more


Either 150+ Rafales are bought or 0, there is no middle ground and I think we can all see which scenario is more likely.

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## raghu85

Abingdonboy said:


> What a complete idiot he and every other Indian journalist is (or perhaps they are just paid off by the competition?). Not a single one of these clowns has reported that Dassualt is setting up a production line in India despite this coming straight from the horse's mouth (Trappier).
> 
> 
> Every single report I see is still erroneously stating the Rafale deal has been scaled down to 36.
> 
> There is nothing new to what Shiv Aroor is stating, it has been repeated again and again in e past year about this so-called "MMRCA 2.0".
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA you know my views on this bro, I've stated it above. I don't understand why the hell Parrikar is playing these games, he has confirmed himself the Rafale is coming so why is a second MMRCA on the table? It is simply mind blowing how little journalism is being conducted on this matter. Why is no one asking why the IAF could be operating 2 MMRCAs? Why three fighters that failed the IAF's technical criteria are once again being offered? Is the IAF accepting this? How will India secure American fighters when ToT is not on the table and when the end user agreements are not acceptable to the Indian side?
> 
> Not one of these questions have been raised let alone answered.
> 
> Again, these journalists are either embarrassingly incompetent or have other interests mind. Sometimes it feels like all they are are SAAB/Boeing/LM salesmen.
> 
> 
> "award winning" defence blog my a$$



if 2nd mmrca is economical and capable then 1st mmrca ie rafale should be dropped... following rafale route IAF will never achieve 42 squadron level.... rafale damn expensive. ... though 4th gen.... also we don't need 2 mmrca's


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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> Either 150+ Rafales are bought or 0, there is no middle ground and I think we can all see which scenario is more likely.



No mate there is definitely a twist in the tale

I am sure a US plane is coming -- Modi has spoken about overcoming the hesitations of History

He has to walk the talk now

And Rafale will still happen -- The MII may not happen --
but that did nt happen with Mirage 2000
too


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## Abingdonboy

raghu85 said:


> if 2nd mmrca is economical and capable then 1st mmrca ie rafale should be dropped... following rafale route IAF will never achieve 42 squadron level.... rafale damn expensive. ... though 4th gen.... also we don't need 2 mmrca's


1) Rafale being too expensive is a myth that has throughly been discredited on this thread countless times. If it is truly too expensive then the F-18 SH and Gripen are also. 
2) the capability gap between the Rafale and every other competing MMRCA (F-16/18/Gripen) is vast and let's not forget that the Rafale and the EFT were the ONLY jets to pass the IAF's technical criteria. Or is this immaterial? 

My pal @PARIKRAMA has outlined with impressive detail how the IAF can reach 42,45 and even 50 SQNs by 2025 with the Rafale. There is no need to buy the BS propaganda the media is spouting.

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## Taygibay

Abingdonboy said:


> and let's not forget that the Rafale and the EFT were the ONLY jets to pass the IAF's technical criteria. Or is this immaterial?



For reference, out of 630 points in the IAF's evaluation,
the Typhie got 614, Rafale 613 and _none of the rest_
gathered 600.

Just sayin', Tay.

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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> No mate there is definitely a twist in the tale
> 
> I am sure a US plane is coming -- Modi has spoken about overcoming the hesitations of History
> 
> He has to walk the talk now
> 
> And Rafale will still happen -- The MII may not happen --
> but that did nt happen with Mirage 2000
> too


It's not about the hesitations of history but the very real drawbacks of the American offer TODAY. It doesn't make sense from an industrial, strategic or operational perspective to go for American fighters.


To this day Dassualt is the only OEM in the running for a MII line, the US made their offer not long ago and were rebuffed. They effectively spat in the faces of the DM/PM with their pathetic offer(s). Now India would have to wait another 1-2 years before it can sign any major defence deals with the US thanks to their election cycle.

I think the US-Indo relationship will be centered primarily around the maritime domain going forward and even there the US is hardly being forthcoming.



Taygibay said:


> For reference, out of 630 points in the IAF's evaluation,
> the Typhie got 614, Rafale 613 and _none of the rest_
> gathered 600.
> 
> Just sayin', Tay.


Indeed, but let's just overlook this shall we?

@Stephen Cohen bro, I forgot to add. Anything below 80 fighters is not economically viable for the IAF, the GoI and MoD all know this so anytime you hear about "only" 36/54 Rafales coming you should immediately question the source.

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## [Bregs]

well when deal was finalized for 36 aircraft it was more or less clear that more rafales under MII is remote possibility ad now this seems to be the truth as govt is looking for F 16, Gripen or F 18 under MII

Now what purpose 36 are going to serve only defence planners knows best

@Abingdonboy

@PARIKRAMA



Abingdonboy said:


> For the love of god just do it! THIS (only LCA, Rafale and FGFA inductions from now on with the AMCA in the long run also joining the mix) is undeniably the optimal scenario for both an industry and operational point of view and it seems this is the plan being worked out and then Parrikar comes out and says something that entirely undermines this or we hear nonsensical speculation about a Gripen/F-16/F-18/F-35 purchase.
> 
> Ramp up LCA production ASAP ( an additional line run by L&T would be ideal), get the Rafale line set up in India and once the FGFA is fully developed switch the Nasik plant over to churning them out but keep MKIs flowing from it until then ). In 10 years India can have the strongest airforce in Asia and perhaps be only second to the USAF (in terms of outright capabilities and its qualitative edge) if this is followed, why mess about with all the other nonsense???
> 
> *It really is VERY simple but since when does India "do" simple?*



lol well said bro

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## Abingdonboy

[Bregs] said:


> well when deal was finalized for 36 aircraft it was more or less clear that more rafales under MII is remote possibility ad now this seems to be the truth as govt is looking for F 16, Gripen or F 18 under MII
> 
> Now what purpose 36 are going to serve only defence planners knows best
> 
> @Abingdonboy
> 
> @PARIKRAMA


The plane that has a chance is the F-18 the other two are LCA killers for sure. And even then the F-18 has next to no chance not just because it itself failed the IAF's evaluations but because the offer from the US/Boeing itself is almost worthless. India has moved on from the point where a decade of screwdriver work on an outdated platform would be in any way attractive to the establishment.

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## raghu85

Abingdonboy said:


> 1) Rafale being too expensive is a myth that has throughly been discredited on this thread countless times. If it is truly too expensive then the F-18 SH and Gripen are also.
> 2) the capability gap between the Rafale and every other competing MMRCA (F-16/18/Gripen) is vast and let's not forget that the Rafale and the EFT were the ONLY jets to pass the IAF's technical criteria. Or is this immaterial?
> 
> My pal @PARIKRAMA has outlined with impressive detail how the IAF can reach 42,45 and even 50 SQNs by 2025 with the Rafale. There is no need to buy the BS propaganda the media is spouting.


1) compare rafale with others. .... then you you realise its cost....
2) after got selected dassault refused to oblige the rules tot and responsibility. ... they only wanted to get selected then twist the rules making others idiots. ... 
3)they never wanted to transfer technology and now you are telling about MII... 
4) tell me honestly how much $$$ billions needed to form 15 squadrons of rafale ,bases support system wrapons.... After that no money will be left with MOD for other programs. ....


----------



## [Bregs]

Abingdonboy said:


> The plane that has a chance is the F-18 the other two are LCA killers for sure. And even then the F-18 has next to no chance not just because it itself failed the IAF's evaluations but because the offer from the US/Boeing itself is almost worthless. India has moved on from the point where a decade of screwdriver work on an outdated platform would be in any way attractive to the establishment.



what if under political pressure pressure govt buckled and allowed F16-60 plus then that's a sheer waste of time yill now and again a single engine platform to kill Tejas future versions


----------



## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/744803145558069252
> View attachment 311920
> 
> Looks like livefist and shiv aroor backing only US and Sweden now.
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @MilSpec @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @anant_s @Vauban @BON PLAN
> @zebra7
> 
> Strange how Rafale is omitted or is it the insider view which is being leaked..
> 
> Or again yellow journalism..if it's yellow, damn they gt livefist and shiv too... Now that's some serious pulling to color opinions and build support base...





Abingdonboy said:


> What a complete idiot he and every other Indian journalist is (or perhaps they are just paid off by the competition?). Not a single one of these clowns has reported that Dassualt is setting up a production line in India despite this coming straight from the horse's mouth (Trappier).
> 
> 
> Every single report I see is still erroneously stating the Rafale deal has been scaled down to 36.
> 
> There is nothing new to what Shiv Aroor is stating, it has been repeated again and again in e past year about this so-called "MMRCA 2.0".
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA you know my views on this bro, I've stated it above. I don't understand why the hell Parrikar is playing these games, he has confirmed himself the Rafale is coming so why is a second MMRCA on the table? It is simply mind blowing how little journalism is being conducted on this matter. Why is no one asking why the IAF could be operating 2 MMRCAs? Why three fighters that failed the IAF's technical criteria are once again being offered? Is the IAF accepting this? How will India secure American fighters when ToT is not on the table and when the end user agreements are not acceptable to the Indian side?
> 
> Not one of these questions have been raised let alone answered.
> 
> Again, these journalists are either embarrassingly incompetent or have other interests mind. Sometimes it feels like all they are are SAAB/Boeing/LM salesmen.
> 
> 
> "award winning" defence blog my a$$



The new MRCA lines have nothing to do with Rafale. GoI is playing politics with the new lines. Rafale MII will happen.

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## Abingdonboy

raghu85 said:


> 1) compare rafale with others. .... then you you realise its cost....
> 2) after got selected dassault refused to oblige the rules tot and responsibility. ... they only wanted to get selected then twist the rules making others idiots. ...
> 3)they never wanted to transfer technology and now you are telling about MII...
> 4) tell me honestly how much $$$ billions needed to form 15 squadrons of rafale ,bases support system wrapons.... After that no money will be left with MOD for other programs. ....


The onus is on you to provide the comparative costs of the different fighters as it has been discussed in detail here with cold hard logic and the facts are for all to see. If you honestly believe that the Rafale is significantly more expensive than the F-18 or even F-16 then you are deluding yourself. 

As for the rest, I can't be bothered to go down that rabbit hole for the nth time.

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Shiv was denied a back seat for a Rafale test and since he is constantly criticizing.



http://rafalenews.blogspot.in/2011/02/first-hand-flying-dassault-rafale.html


----------



## Abingdonboy

temporary1234 said:


> There is a very good chance that number of Rafales that would be inducted would be 36 off shelf + 90 MII + Whatever number would be brought for Naval carriers (Vishal, and if Rafale could fly from it then Vikrant), and the rest of the requirement would be filled by F-16 MII .
> 
> See it is impossible that USA would not have insisted on India buying some of its defence equipment for providing support at all those international forums.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither Gripen nor F-16 are as capable as Rafale, and if India has to buys any of them, it would be F-16 and that purchase would be made for political reasons, rather than pure technical or financial one.


India is going to go for the exact same plane the PAF flies for decades? Really? This alone makes the deal untenable.



temporary1234 said:


> NOT necessarily.
> 
> If government makes a political decision consciously, then it could cap F-16 numbers at minimum possible to placate US MIC, and still fill up rest with Tejas mk1/2.


If these idiots engage in "placating" games they'll end up killing the LCA program with the F-16. NOTHING is worth that price. The LCA is essential for India's future, the F-16 is a relic of the past and India has no need of it.


If the GoI is so desperate to placate the US MIC then go for a C-130XJ line in India or a MQ-4C purchase or any number of products that would actually be useful to India and wouldn't cause terminal damage to India's own fledgling military industry.



[Bregs] said:


> what if under political pressure pressure govt buckled and allowed F16-60 plus then that's a sheer waste of time yill now and again a single engine platform to kill Tejas future versions


Then they will be traitors, as simple as that.

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## proud_indian

*'Make in India' pitch to sell Swedish fighter for air force
*
Sujan Dutta






Mikael OlssonA prototype of the Gripen E in the hangar of the company's Linkoping assembly plant.*Pictures by Sujan Dutta*​*March 26:* The uncertainty over India's negotiations with France for the Rafale fighter aircraft and the air force's desperation to stall the depletion of its combat fleet have prompted global aviation majors to dovetail their planes into Prime Minister Narendra Modi's "Make in India" campaign.

After US companies Lockheed Martin and Boeing, Swedish firm Saab has now said that it is willing to transfer technology and set up a new company with an Indian partner to make its latest fighter aircraft, the Gripen E, in India. The Gripen E is being built block-by-block and is slated to roll out of its production assembly in May this year.

"Sweden is looking for a market. India is looking for technology. The Gripen E can be the frontline multi-role fighter made in India," said Saab's technical director and product manager for the aircraft, Gideon Sines, *to a group of Indian journalists visiting the manufacturing facilities in Sweden. The visit was sponsored by Saab.*


http://www.telegraphindia.com/1160327/jsp/nation/story_76679.jsp


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/732869516015894528


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/732838097931620352


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/732866772454498304


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/732472196245774336


​

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> If the GoI is so desperate to placate the US MIC then go for a C-130XJ line in India or a MQ-4C purchase or any number of products that would actually be useful to India and wouldn't cause terminal damage to India's own fledgling military industry.



http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...global-aerospace-companies/article8561752.ece

http://www.livemint.com/Industry/wX...dvanced-Systems-to-make-Apache-fuselages.html


----------



## Abingdonboy

proud_indian said:


> *'Make in India' pitch to sell Swedish fighter for air force*
> 
> Sujan Dutta
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mikael OlssonA prototype of the Gripen E in the hangar of the company's Linkoping assembly plant.*Pictures by Sujan Dutta*​
> *March 26:* The uncertainty over India's negotiations with France for the Rafale fighter aircraft and the air force's desperation to stall the depletion of its combat fleet have prompted global aviation majors to dovetail their planes into Prime Minister Narendra Modi's "Make in India" campaign.​
> After US companies Lockheed Martin and Boeing, Swedish firm Saab has now said that it is willing to transfer technology and set up a new company with an Indian partner to make its latest fighter aircraft, the Gripen E, in India. The Gripen E is being built block-by-block and is slated to roll out of its production assembly in May this year.
> 
> "Sweden is looking for a market. India is looking for technology. The Gripen E can be the frontline multi-role fighter made in India," said Saab's technical director and product manager for the aircraft, Gideon Sines, *to a group of Indian journalists visiting the manufacturing facilities in Sweden. The visit was sponsored by Saab.*
> 
> 
> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1160327/jsp/nation/story_76679.jsp
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/732869516015894528
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/732838097931620352
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/732866772454498304
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/732472196245774336
> 
> 
> ​


SAAB take propaganda or "marketing" as they would call it to a new high/low. Wtf is the Indian flag doing at the roll out of the Gripen E? India has ZERO attachment to that type. 

It is a well known fact that SAAB has the largest marketing/advertisement budget of all global defence OEMs in India and despite developments to the contrary they have continued to pitch the Gripen aggressively in India and I'm told the Gripen is advertised just as much now as during the MMRCA. Every defence magazine in India features countless SAAB advertisements and I'm told from time to time even billboards in Delhi feature the Gripen

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## Nimitam

Taygibay said:


> So pointing out mistakes ( such as procurement fiascos, ask any one from outside Bharat ) is
> arrogance? Then you are in an unfixable jam, my poor fellow! Stuck in a rut, a temporal drift ...
> 
> And you must have missed those posts where I specifically mentioned that my comments held
> true even if you replaced the Rafale with another jet which sadly they do ...
> 
> Calm down, you have less enemies than you think, Tay.
> 
> P.S. I know StephenC, I was answering tongue in cheek.



You are entitled to your opinion and quite frankly I don't care for them. 

But if you are going to keep whining about how the DM is not competent just because you do not get to eat your pie then do not expect any sympathy. The DM puts INDIA first, not Rafale or France or even IAF first. So far i have not seen anything that tells me otherwise. 

I don't care for the opinion of anyone outside Bharat. When I do, I will seek them at my convenience. Them and you are free to whine and bitch all they want, just remember what happens when you do it to Indians. 

All this does not make you my 'enemy', just an arrogant opinionated prick who needs to be told to shut up because he just would not stop ....


----------



## BON PLAN

raghu85 said:


> if 2nd mmrca is economical and capable then 1st mmrca ie rafale should be dropped... following rafale route IAF will never achieve 42 squadron level.... rafale damn expensive. ... though 4th gen.... also we don't need 2 mmrca's


Some argument please? Do you even know the price of a sole dry Rafale ? I'm afraid not....



Taygibay said:


> For reference, out of 630 points in the IAF's evaluation,
> the Typhie got 614, Rafale 613 and _none of the rest_
> gathered 600.
> 
> Just sayin', Tay.


A very interesting data. First time I read that.

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## Abingdonboy

BON PLAN said:


> Some argument please? Do you even know the price of a sole dry Rafale ? I'm afraid not....
> 
> .


Of course he doesn't, those that makes such absurd statements never do. The problem is the narrative that has been created against the Rafale and thus it is now PERCIEVED as the "uber expensive" platform that poor India cannot afford and if it goes for the purchase it will go bankrupt. 

Sad to say but Dassualt has utterly lost the media/PR battle and has allowed itself to be misrepresented not just in India but on the global stage.

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## Nimitam

BON PLAN said:


> A very interesting data. First time I read that.




Makes you wonder how he got such classified data .....



Abingdonboy said:


> Of course he doesn't, those that makes such absurd statements never do. The problem is the narrative that has been created against the Rafale and thus it is now PERCIEVED as the "uber expensive" platform that poor India cannot afford and if it goes for the purchase it will go bankrupt.
> 
> Sad to say but Dassualt has utterly lost the media/PR battle and has allowed itself to be misrepresented not just in India but on the global stage.



You need to stop projecting your insecurities and desires in this thread. 

If Rafale is the Best option for India, the DM will but them. If we have better options then DM will go with that. .......... unless you wish to convince us that you know more than the DM of India ? 

This is not the CONgress govt. to be swayed by the media or underhand dealings.

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## PARIKRAMA

@Abingdonboy 

Well I recently got the figure that Saab offerred to us under MII and is costing $20Bn for Gripen E in two tranches of 120+80. And there are additional costs as well like

The support package additional. 
The base infra additional. 
Weapon customization additional. 
Switching to 2052 AESA and recalibration plus recertification cost additional.
The good source added even 120 Gripen E will almost like double when we add all the other costs.

I avoided this here bcz this is suppose to be a bit confidential. Of course I also happen to knw abt the F16 F35 costing as well as F18ASH new customized version. But those numbers to be honest is more streamlined and less murky then Saab ones.

The F16 F35 plan is the cheapest among the 3 -LM, Boeing and Saab. And in terms of technology the details are still nt out as certain relaxation is being hoped from US Senate side.

What is interesting is the version which US is offering as well as capability versus the price as compared to any other AF is pretty lucrative. On top they have thrown in some solid work from Israel.

Yet LM has slowly stopped the marketing angle understanding that decision won't be made by coloring opinions but via firm capability evaluation and geo political strategies.

Yet Saab does nt learn and shamelessly misleading day and night all over.

Beauty is both LM and Boeing knows India won't buy so easily with just fake promises with a strong government, a opposition waiting to discredit government at each and every corner, a tough nut DM, and most importantly Indian Standard Time...

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## Piper

And just when India was getting dull and I was thinking of beating a retreat, there is a shot of adrenaline today. As they say here "Stars are aligning." For what it is worth here are my two cents. 

- A bitter sweet deal for french. Not what they wanted but at this stage they would be happy with anything. Can't blame them. DA folks are absolutely exhausted, just a few more weeks. 

- Good work SAAB, your persistence has paid off. They made huge investments and put in a lot of work. 
- Biggest congratulations to the home team . Absolutely fabulous work! Guys you showed the true meaning of stealth! Gauls had no clue 

In the end everyone gets a piece of the pie. Biggest looser IMHO is IAF, they will never get rid of the menagerie of aircrafts. 

As per me the in next 6 years we are looking at 

A, B (new acquisitions)

C, C+ (homegrown brew in foreign crystal)

D, D+, E. E+, (Ivan)

G+F (old stock)

H,I (future designs)

Let's see if anyone correctly identifies all

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> Of course he doesn't, those that makes such absurd statements never do. The problem is the narrative that has been created against the Rafale and thus it is now PERCIEVED as the "uber expensive" platform that poor India cannot afford and if it goes for the purchase it will go bankrupt.
> 
> Sad to say but Dassualt has utterly lost the media/PR battle and has allowed itself to be misrepresented not just in India but on the global stage.



Not correct. Dassault is in the middle of negotiations. They can't engage in PR battles by Indian law.

They have zero need to engage in a PR battle anyway since military acquisitions are not influenced by public opinion. So Dassault has no need to impress anybody except Parrikar.

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## Abingdonboy

Piper said:


> And just when India was getting dull and I was thinking of beating a retreat, there is a shot of adrenaline today. As they say here "Stars are aligning." For what it is worth here are my two cents.
> 
> - A bitter sweet deal for french. Not what they wanted but at this stage they would be happy with anything. Can't blame them. DA folks are absolutely exhausted, just a few more weeks.
> 
> - Good work SAAB, your persistence has paid off. They made huge investments and put in a lot of work.
> - Biggest congratulations to the home team . Absolutely fabulous work! Guys you showed the true meaning of stealth! Gauls had no clue
> 
> In the end everyone gets a piece of the pie. Biggest looser IMHO is IAF, they will never get rid of the menagerie of aircrafts.
> 
> As per me the in next 6 years we are looking at
> 
> A, B (new acquisitions)
> 
> C, C+ (homegrown brew in foreign crystal)
> 
> D, D+, E. E+, (Ivan)
> 
> G+F (old stock)
> 
> H,I (future designs)
> 
> Let's see if anyone correctly identifies all


Excuse me? Nothing has changed. The Gripen and F-16 still have no chance and the F-18 has an outside chance but judging by how they acted a few months back I wouldn't place any bets on it getting into the IAF. As it stands Dassualt is the sole OEM to have entered into advanced talks for setting up a production line in India, everything else is propaganda and mindless speculation.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio said:


> http://rafalenews.blogspot.in/2011/02/first-hand-flying-dassault-rafale.html


My mistake!

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Abingdonboy
> 
> Well I recently got the figure that Saab offerred to us under MII and is costing $20Bn for Gripen E in two tranches of 120+80. And there are additional costs as well like
> 
> The support package additional.
> The base infra additional.
> Weapon customization additional.
> Switching to 2052 AESA and recalibration plus recertification cost additional.
> The good source added even 120 Gripen E will almost like double when we add all the other costs.
> ...


What are SAAB smoking?


+ it is interesting that it seems as though the Rafale MII isn't directly competing with SAAB/LM/Boeing and that it seems as if the Rafale MII is pretty much a certainty at this point. The more I look at it the more I think Parrikar is hell bent on a second MMRCA and that there will be 300-400 MMRCA in the IAF (Rafale and one other) the logic behind this just doesn't make sense to me though. 2/3 of the options on the table (Gripen and F-16) will kill the LCA and I can't see the same DM who brags about having saved the LCA taking such a call which just leaves the F-18 (along with the reasons stated above such as the Gripen being stupidly expensive for what it is) and that itself is a very costly and increasingly outdated peice of kit and if it is the ASH/"Silent" Hornet on the table it is an entirely unfunded type.


This is before we even talk about the IN's requirements.

Maybe Dassualt aren't able to cater for this huge demand? God knows at this point but Parrikar isn't telling us the whole truth.

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## Mysticbuddy

Abingdonboy said:


> Of course he doesn't, those that makes such absurd statements never do. The problem is the narrative that has been created against the Rafale and thus it is now PERCIEVED as the "uber expensive" platform that poor India cannot afford and if it goes for the purchase it will go bankrupt.
> 
> Sad to say but Dassualt has utterly lost the media/PR battle and has allowed itself to be misrepresented not just in India but on the global stage.


Well to be honest, if $220 million is not expensive then what is? F35 is doing the same role and more. I am not sure if this could be done or not but you guys should be doing f35. They are still cheaper than what French are offering and more input from IAF could certainly help. I don't need to sell it but just be smart enough to know the same. French would just want to sell it. I am not saying it bad but it's good for nothing when super hornets and f22 are doing bombing sorties and French just doing sorties.

You guys need a better air to ground aircraft and f35 should be the one.

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> What are SAAB smoking?
> 
> 
> + it is interesting that it seems as though the Rafale MII isn't directly competing with SAAB/LM/Boeing and that it seems as if the Rafale MII is pretty much a certainty at this point. The more I look at it the more I think Parrikar is hell bent on a second MMRCA and that there will be 300-400 MMRCA in the IAF (Rafale and one other) the logic behind this just doesn't make sense to me though. 2/3 of the options on the table (Gripen and F-16) will kill the LCA and I can't see the same DM who brags about having saved the LCA taking such a call which just leaves the F-18 (along with the reasons stated above such as the Gripen being stupidly expensive for what it is) and that itself is a very costly and increasingly outdated peice of kit and if it is the ASH/"Silent" Hornet on the table it is an entirely unfunded type.
> 
> 
> This is before we even talk about the IN's requirements.
> 
> Maybe Dassualt aren't able to cater for this huge demand? God knows at this point but Parrikar isn't telling us the whole truth.



People have already told you, including the IAF and Parrikar. India cannot afford 300+ Rafales for the IAF alone. So the original MMRCA is being split into many deals.

Right now, it's-
Case 1 : Success of LCA Mk1A
Rafale B/C = 90
Second MRCA = 90

Options = 100+

or

Case 2: Failure of LCA Mk1A
Rafale B/C = 90
Gripen E/F = 90
SH E/F = 90

Options = 150+

These numbers are pretty much a 2027 objective for the IAF. What happens in the future is completely unknown, especially in terms of squadron strength.

Dassault gets the bonus Rafale-M order from the navy.


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## Abingdonboy

Mysticbuddy said:


> Well to be honest, if $220 million is not expensive then what is? F35 is doing the same role and more. I am not sure if this could be done or not but you guys should be doing f35. They are still cheaper than what French are offering and more input from IAF could certainly help. I don't need to sell it but just be smart enough to know the same. French would just want to sell it. I am not saying it bad but it's good for nothing when super hornets and f22 are doing bombing sorties and French just doing sorties.
> 
> You guys need a better air to ground aircraft and f35 should be the one.


1) the F-35 is simply inferior to the Rafale in A2G missions 
2) we have no idea how much the IAF will be paying for their Rafales at this point or how much the F-35 would be offered to the IAF at
3) the IAF could not customise their F-35s as much as they can and will customise their Rafales
4) the IAF doesn't need a THIRD 5th gen/VLO aircraft after the AMCA and FGFA
5) the F-35 would offer lower availability and higher life cycle costs via a vis the Rafale



randomradio said:


> People have already told you, including the IAF and Parrikar. India cannot afford 300+ Rafales for the IAF alone. So the original MMRCA is being split into many deals.
> 
> Right now, it's-
> Case 1 : Success of LCA Mk1A
> Rafale B/C = 90
> Second MRCA = 90
> 
> Options = 100+
> .


See this doesn't make any sense. If the LCA MK1A Is a success the MoD could order a aircraft (Gripen or F-18) that effectively kills off the LCA? 

The MoD should commit to 300 LCA MK1A/2 from the outset and protect this vital project. What you are proposing imagines this GoI and DM are plotting to kill off the LCA project for the sake of foreign products.

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## Piper

Abingdonboy said:


> Excuse me? Nothing has changed. The Gripen and F-16 still have no chance and the F-18 has an outside chance but judging by how they acted a few months back I wouldn't place any bets on it getting into the IAF. As it stands Dassualt is the sole OEM to have entered into advanced talks for setting up a production line in India, everything else is propaganda and mindless speculation.



NO Chappie. infact you would be shocked to know what went on behind the scenes.

Indians tried their darnest to work something out but french obduracy and Indian bureaucracy made a hash of what was match made in heaven. Rafale is not getting the production line in India.

A great part of it is due to India having options, we came in and showed them how exactly India will gain. French simply couldn't match the package due to economics and the ancillary stuff.

The deal of this magnitude works out on many levels. Why did Modi and Doval visit USA? You would be a fool if you think it was for NSG which US was anyway supporting making the visit for this purpose redundant. Parikkar is a nuts and bolts guys, he is just following the directions from above.

Anyway the main imperative for India is now to close the kiddie deal with French so they can now move on to next level of which these jets are but a minuscule part. 

AND an extra point to be noted by Indians - the offering by us is in no way inferior to Rafales. It is on the similar level capability wise and more importantly this deal is workable economics wise which the Rafale wasn't.


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## randomradio

Mysticbuddy said:


> Well to be honest, if $220 million is not expensive then what is? F35 is doing the same role and more. I am not sure if this could be done or not but you guys should be doing f35. They are still cheaper than what French are offering and more input from IAF could certainly help. I don't need to sell it but just be smart enough to know the same. French would just want to sell it. I am not saying it bad but it's good for nothing when super hornets and f22 are doing bombing sorties and French just doing sorties.
> 
> You guys need a better air to ground aircraft and f35 should be the one.



If you arguing for the F-35 instead of Rafales, then the F-35 stands no chance. Our requirement is for an air superiority fighter, especially one that can get into dog fights. And Rafale is rigged for the nuke strike role as well. The Rafale is cheaper than the F-35.

If you are arguing for the F-35 instead of the SH, F-16 or Gripen, then the F-35 is far more expensive as of now.

Personally, I can't see any way for the F-35 to get into the IAF. It is still in development and is still years away from combat operations.


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## Piper

randomradio said:


> If you arguing for the F-35 instead of Rafales, then the F-35 stands no chance. Our requirement is for an air superiority fighter, especially one that can get into dog fights. And Rafale is rigged for the nuke strike role as well. The Rafale is cheaper than the F-35.
> 
> If you are arguing for the F-35 instead of the SH, F-16 or Gripen, then the F-35 is far more expensive as of now.
> 
> Personally, I can't see any way for the F-35 to get into the IAF. It is still in development and is still years away from combat operations.



F-35 will enter into combat ops this year so forget about the developmental pains. Where are the other fifth gen offerings? Where is the famed Sukhoi Flankar plus, where is the copy from China, where are the Korean, Turkish, Japanese and Indian offerings? Some still born, some with still sucking their thumbs and some dying off pre-maturely. 

As for french they have given up on jets all together. Do they even have a plan post rafales which is 20 year old product to say the least?


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## Mysticbuddy

Abingdonboy said:


> 1) the F-35 is simply inferior to the Rafale in A2G missions
> 2) we have no idea how much the IAF will be paying for their Rafales at this point or how much the F-35 would be offered to the IAF at
> 3) the IAF could not customise their F-35s as much as they can and will customise their Rafales
> 4) the IAF doesn't need a THIRD 5th gen/VLO aircraft after the AMCA and FGFA
> 5) the F-35 would offer lower availability and higher life cycle costs via a vis the Rafale
> 
> 
> See this doesn't make any sense. If the LCA MK1A Is a success the MoD could order a aircraft (Gripen or F-18) that effectively kills off the LCA?
> 
> The MoD should commit to 300 LCA MK1A/2 from the outset and protect this vital project. What you are proposing imagines this GoI and DM are plotting to kill off the LCA project for the sake of foreign products.



I don't agree with respect to your conclusions. 
1. How? Maneuvering is not a parameter for air to ground missions.

2. I already mentione the number for Dassault offer. They can't lower it for you since it's almost the same as that of Egypt or Qatar. IAF can only get planes from full rate production which are at 120-140 million per plane for non participating nations. To be frank, it's way hard to get anything till 2022.

3. You won't need to customize the same as its not inferior as that of rafale. Some customizations are offered. 

4. Of which neither has seen the light of the day till date and won't be available till 2025 even the first flight is tomorrow.

5. For initial versions/iterations that might be true but not for the better ones as this will be evolving platform. Block 5 is said to full capable.

LCA is an internal matter for India and f35 is definitely not a replacement for that. IMHO you guys should work on that more than flirting with French. They can learn a tip or two from Bollywood. Just kidding!!!!


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> See this doesn't make any sense. If the LCA MK1A Is a success the MoD could order a aircraft (Gripen or F-18) that effectively kills off the LCA?



Nothing can kill the LCA program, except itself.



> The MoD should commit to 300 LCA MK1A/2 from the outset and protect this vital project. What you are proposing imagines this GoI and DM are plotting to kill off the LCA project for the sake of foreign products.



That would be a disaster because there is no time to wait and see. If the MoD commits to that many LCAs and it turns out the LCA is a dud, then there is no time to fix it. IAF will still be short of 300 aircraft even in 2027, an absolute disaster. You are talking about 1/3rd of the IAF at a time when our enemies will have more number of aircraft.

And because of this indecision, IAF will ask for more Rafales, and that will affect AMCA and FGFA, programs, which are far more critical than LCA.

Parrikar is going to make a few decisions over the next one year, and his decisions today will affect India's next 20 years.

Anyway, there is no difference between buying 120 or 300. All India needs is 5 squadrons to keep a program viable. Buying more than 120 is merely an operational decision by the IAF, meaning it won't make the LCA program any better if the numbers go up to 300. All it does is make HAL's pockets fatter, and that serves little purpose. Our money is better spent in the private industry.


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## BON PLAN

PARIKRAMA said:


> Of course I also happen to knw abt the F16 F35 costing as well as F18ASH new customized version


Not to speak about Astra integration for exemple.

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## randomradio

Piper said:


> F-35 will enter into combat ops this year so forget about the developmental pains.



That's irrelevant to the IAF because IAF is looking at combat ops that the F-35 can handle only in 2024, not the IOC level ops that the F-35 won't be able to handle at least until 2018 with the Block 3F software that will allow it to fire the Aim-120.



> Where are the other fifth gen offerings? Where is the famed Sukhoi Flankar plus, where is the copy from China, where are the Korean, Turkish, Japanese and Indian offerings? Some still born, some with still sucking their thumbs and some dying off pre-maturely.



IAF has a plan, and the F-35 is not part of it.

The PAK FA will soon be entering serial production. The final configuration prototype is expected to fly right about now.



> As for french they have given up on jets all together. Do they even have a plan post rafales which is 20 year old product to say the least?



A French pilot on IDF says there will be two different aircraft. One is an air superiority UCAV, and the other will be built with the British called the FCAS.

Anyway, this may make a bigger dent in your opinion.
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...tion-stealth-fighter-will-be-hypersonic-16528
A new hypersonic air superiority fighter.

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> People have already told you, including the IAF and Parrikar. India cannot afford 300+ Rafales for the IAF alone. So the original MMRCA is being split into many deals.
> 
> Right now, it's-
> Case 1 : Success of LCA Mk1A
> Rafale B/C = 90
> Second MRCA = 90
> 
> Options = 100+
> 
> or
> 
> Case 2: Failure of LCA Mk1A
> Rafale B/C = 90
> Gripen E/F = 90
> SH E/F = 90
> 
> Options = 150+
> 
> These numbers are pretty much a 2027 objective for the IAF. What happens in the future is completely unknown, especially in terms of squadron strength.
> 
> Dassault gets the bonus Rafale-M order from the navy.


LCA Mk1A will not failed. And even if, it is of the first importance to keep alive this programm, to developp your skill. So it will be a great (political at least) success.

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## PARIKRAMA

Two quick points


Rafale deal and MII is still on.. Simply bcz of the other things negotiated under the whole deal. 
The Indian SSN program which now will be given more priority and p75I cancellation needs urgent tech help for noise reduction and lowering detection ability. It is true that design in mostly Indian, partially tech borrowed via Russian Consultancy and French DCNS.
Also more scorpene are cmg
AIP is also now DCNS as DRDO aip is stuck
The heavy water torpedo is again F21 for scorpenes as well as SSBN and in future SSNs as well
Many things more

USA will get certain deals surely. It's no secret that F16 price offerred is cheap as they wish to shift the line here. The F35 program is not now for India. As I have said earlier once LM finishes the Indian F16 order and Indian becomes the global MRO for F16s, the line gets upgraded for F35. It's true that LM has shown a presentation with price of flyaway less than $75 Mn down from $85Mn flyaway. But when we do add up the rest of the package details the cost is more than Rafales. Especially the post flying support and service costing part.

The consideration for USA jets will come bcz of a bigger bogie which you all know.

What India has wanted is instead of LM deal , they are keen for armed version of General Atomics aerial vehicles.

Now let's see how it fans out.

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> Two quick points
> 
> 
> Rafale deal and MII is still on.. Simply bcz of the other things negotiated under the whole deal.
> The Indian SSN program which now will be given more priority and p75I cancellation needs urgent tech help for noise reduction and lowering detection ability. It is true that design in mostly Indian, partially tech borrowed via Russian Consultancy and French DCNS.
> Also more scorpene are cmg
> AIP is also now DCNS as DRDO aip is stuck
> The heavy water torpedo is again F21 for scorpenes as well as SSBN and in future SSNs as well
> Many things more
> 
> USA will get certain deals surely. It's no secret that F16 price offerred is cheap as they wish to shift the line here. The F35 program is not now for India. As I have said earlier once LM finishes the Indian F16 order and Indian becomes the global MRO for F16s, the line gets upgraded for F35. It's true that LM has shown a presentation with price of flyaway less than $75 Mn down from $85Mn flyaway. But when we do add up the rest of the package details the cost is more than Rafales. Especially the post flying support and service costing part.
> 
> The consideration for USA jets will come bcz of a bigger bogie which you all know.
> 
> What India has wanted is instead of LM deal , they are keen for armed version of General Atomics aerial vehicles.
> 
> Now let's see how it fans out.



People still have no clue how big the Rafale deal is.

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## Mysticbuddy

randomradio said:


> If you arguing for the F-35 instead of Rafales, then the F-35 stands no chance. Our requirement is for an air superiority fighter, especially one that can get into dog fights. And Rafale is rigged for the nuke strike role as well. The Rafale is cheaper than the F-35.
> 
> If you are arguing for the F-35 instead of the SH, F-16 or Gripen, then the F-35 is far more expensive as of now.
> 
> Personally, I can't see any way for the F-35 to get into the IAF. It is still in development and is still years away from combat operations.


Your basis of this comment is the underlying fact that an air superiority fighter was the requirement. I would prove it otherwise. Find the expanded version of MMRCA. Doesn't it mention multirole. Also if that was the role then eurofighter should be the choice.


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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> People still have no clue how big the Rafale deal is.



The reason being strategic things are still thought with respect to only two names - Russia and Israel. That's how common mass.perception is build. On top last five years of sustained propaganda painted France as the devilish side.

But with last few years and the progression of Indo French relation things are far more strategic in nature than what meets the eye of common people.

That is why we see so hard efforts to showcase as French side to be uncompromising and looting types. Yet in business everyone negotiates.. And India is paying every penny and extracting much more in return. It's just that most things are kept away from sensationalism.

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## randomradio

Mysticbuddy said:


> Your basis of this comment is the underlying fact that an air superiority fighter was the requirement. I would prove it otherwise. Find the expanded version of MMRCA. Doesn't it mention multirole. Also if that was the role then eurofighter should be the choice.



It has always been "a multirole fighter, but designed for air superiority". The FGFA is also called PMF or Perspective Multirole Fighter. Su-30MKI is also multirole.

Eurofighter was selected and then lost because it was more expensive than the Rafale.

The F-35 isn't multirole if you look at IAF definitions. It's a strike fighter.

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> Now let's see how it fans out.



Will the June deadline for Rafale be kept or will it be extended

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## PARIKRAMA

I second @randomradio 
On this. f35 is a strike platform something which USA has been impressing India to incorporate in its doctrine instead of considering just usual light medium heavy differentiation.

In fact what they offerred was 

Light - tejas /F16
Medium - existing fleet
Heavy MKI /FGFA
Strike -F35
That's the new category and the number suggested was 150.

Of course, DM Sat through and listened but he knows it won't cut much ice as of now so he just ignored it.

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## Mysticbuddy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Two quick points
> 
> 
> Rafale deal and MII is still on.. Simply bcz of the other things negotiated under the whole deal.
> The Indian SSN program which now will be given more priority and p75I cancellation needs urgent tech help for noise reduction and lowering detection ability. It is true that design in mostly Indian, partially tech borrowed via Russian Consultancy and French DCNS.
> Also more scorpene are cmg
> AIP is also now DCNS as DRDO aip is stuck
> The heavy water torpedo is again F21 for scorpenes as well as SSBN and in future SSNs as well
> Many things more
> 
> USA will get certain deals surely. It's no secret that F16 price offerred is cheap as they wish to shift the line here. The F35 program is not now for India. As I have said earlier once LM finishes the Indian F16 order and Indian becomes the global MRO for F16s, the line gets upgraded for F35. It's true that LM has shown a presentation with price of flyaway less than $75 Mn down from $85Mn flyaway. But when we do add up the rest of the package details the cost is more than Rafales. Especially the post flying support and service costing part.
> 
> The consideration for USA jets will come bcz of a bigger bogie which you all know.
> 
> What India has wanted is instead of LM deal , they are keen for armed version of General Atomics aerial vehicles.
> 
> Now let's see how it fans out.


Access to them is more important than procuring them. That's how you build soft power.


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## Stephen Cohen

@PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Abingdonboy

We must see one more aspect when it comes to deals with USA

Right now US ego is hurt and US Pakistan relations are bad

so US is looking to MAKE a POINT ( Make them realise That USA is the most resourceful ally )
to our neighbours and also to China

So for us this is the Best time to get a great deal from the USA


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## Dash

PARIKRAMA said:


> I second @randomradio
> On this. f35 is a strike platform something which USA has been impressing India to incorporate in its doctrine instead of considering just usual light medium heavy differentiation.
> 
> In fact what they offerred was
> 
> Light - tejas /F16
> Medium - existing fleet
> Heavy MKI /FGFA
> Strike -F35
> That's the new category and the number suggested was 150.
> 
> Of course, DM Sat through and listened but he knows it won't cut much ice as of now so he just ignored it.



This is interesting. Will tell u why. Gimmi some time



Stephen Cohen said:


> @PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Abingdonboy
> 
> We must see one more aspect when it comes to deals with USA
> 
> Right now US ego is hurt and US Pakistan relations are bad
> 
> so US is looking to MAKE a POINT ( Make them realise That USA is the most resourceful ally )
> to our neighbours and also to China
> 
> So this is the Best time to get a great deal from the USA



US doesn't have ego. If it was there then there hadn't been a $800 Million package for Pakistan.

U need to study more

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> The reason being strategic things are still thought with respect to only two names - Russia and Israel. That's how common mass.perception is build. On top last five years of sustained propaganda painted France as the devilish side.
> 
> But with last few years and the progression of Indo French relation things are far more strategic in nature than what meets the eye of common people.
> 
> That is why we see so hard efforts to showcase as French side to be uncompromising and looting types. Yet in business everyone negotiates.. And India is paying every penny and extracting much more in return. It's just that most things are kept away from sensationalism.



The problem is that since Dassault is under negotiations, they are not allowed to tell their side of the story by law. Occasionally, the DM comes out to clear some confusion and that's about it.

The constant attack on France from the anti-French lobby will obviously take hold of the mind of the average reader. This lack of information gets even people like @Picdelamirand-oil and @Taygibay confused.

This happens to Russia also, but the Russians don't care because they know very well that weapons purchases in India are made by ministers, not the media.

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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> Will the June deadline for Rafale be kept or will it be extended


No idea as I was told DM is not yet signing things. 

It seems he wishes to seek some tech bargaining in F21 HWT for Indian programs varunastra

The requirement is now much higher
18 HWT pee scorpene
6+3 = 9 scorpenes
So 162 torpedoes
Assume similar number for Arihant class so at least 18x4= 72
And add approx same numbers for 6SSN
18x6=108


So a ball park figure of 342 HWT required. Now F21 will meet majorly or entirely depending upon cost and technology provided to us. So I expect a little more haggling to be done here and there.

I am not optimistic for June at all

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> No idea as I was told DM is not yet signing things.
> 
> It seems he wishes to seek some tech bargaining in F21 HWT for Indian programs varunastra
> 
> The requirement is now much higher
> 18 HWT pee scorpene
> 6+3 = 9 scorpenes
> So 162 torpedoes
> Assume similar number for Arihant class so at least 18x4= 72
> And add approx same numbers for 6SSN
> 18x6=108
> 
> 
> So a ball park figure of 342 HWT required. Now F21 will meet majorly or entirely depending upon cost and technology provided to us. So I expect a little more haggling to be done here and there.
> 
> I am not optimistic for June at all



Offtopic: I don't think Arihant and the SSNs will carry imported weapons. The requirement is for purely Indian tech. France will get in trouble if they provide weapons to India's strategic programs.

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## Stephen Cohen

Dash said:


> US doesn't have ego. If it was there then there hadn't been a $800 Million package for Pakistan.
> 
> U need to study more



I know what am I talking about ; this 800 Million package is another thing 

Overall US Pakistan relations are quite bad 

And everything depends on what happens in Afghanistan 

Any way let us not derail the topic

My point is that this is the best time for getting deals from USA




PARIKRAMA said:


> I am not optimistic for June at all



So a torpedo has now torpedoed the Rafale deal (pun intended)

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> Offtopic: I don't think Arihant and the SSNs will carry imported weapons. The requirement is for purely Indian tech. France will get in trouble if they provide weapons to India's strategic programs.


In Trouble with who?


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## Mysticbuddy

randomradio said:


> It has always been "a multirole fighter, but designed for air superiority". The FGFA is also called PMF or Perspective Multirole Fighter. Su-30MKI is also multirole.
> 
> Eurofighter was selected and then lost because it was more expensive than the Rafale.
> 
> The F-35 isn't multirole if you look at IAF definitions. It's a strike fighter.


I respect you as a person so please do not take the following personally.

Your first statement is hilarious as this would be the first in history as French were trying to make something else and it ending up becoming that and air superiority fighter as well. This was the sole contest between the French and the eurofighter consortium. French perceived the threat of su27 as just problem for all states and needed exports as well. They already had a flourishing mirage campaign. Whereas the other countries wanted a frontline / air superiority fighter. Edited so bad use of English. On iPhone 

I know what PMF or PAK-FA is. The only thing that is working is T-50 and even Russia acknowledged the same. Pak-fa is the Russian version of the t50 concept. Currently it's su35 with a different skin. FGFA or PMF is still up in the air and it doesn't mean flying.


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## Dash

Stephen Cohen said:


> I know what am I talking about ; this 800 Million package is another thing
> 
> Overall US Pakistan relations are quite bad
> 
> And everything depends on what happens in Afghanistan
> 
> Any way let us not derail the topic
> 
> My point is that this is the best time for getting deals from USA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So a torpedo has now torpedoed the Rafale deal (pun intended)



Sometimes the best times become your worst nightmare.. Ask US and Pakistan

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> No idea as I was told DM is not yet signing things.
> 
> It seems he wishes to seek some tech bargaining in F21 HWT for Indian programs varunastra
> 
> The requirement is now much higher
> 18 HWT pee scorpene
> 6+3 = 9 scorpenes
> So 162 torpedoes
> Assume similar number for Arihant class so at least 18x4= 72
> And add approx same numbers for 6SSN
> 18x6=108
> 
> 
> So a ball park figure of 342 HWT required. Now F21 will meet majorly or entirely depending upon cost and technology provided to us. So I expect a little more haggling to be done here and there.
> 
> I am not optimistic for June at all


Yet another Parrikar curveball isn't it? He creates the problems (in this case the BS blacklisting) then wants to be praised for finding a solution? 

How many deadlines has he failed to reach now? Before it was Jan then March then June and now that too is not going to be upheld. At some point he has to actually sign the damn deal otherwise all this haggling and game playing is meaningless. 

I am losing my faith in this guy by the day, he talks a good talk but more often than not is found wanting in his performance.


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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> In Trouble with who?



NSG, NPT protocols. You are not supposed to assist another country in providing weapons to dedicated nuclear platforms.


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## Mysticbuddy

Stephen Cohen said:


> @PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Abingdonboy
> 
> We must see one more aspect when it comes to deals with USA
> 
> Right now US ego is hurt and US Pakistan relations are bad
> 
> so US is looking to MAKE a POINT ( Make them realise That USA is the most resourceful ally )
> to our neighbours and also to China
> 
> So for us this is the Best time to get a great deal from the USA


Don't act like Pakistan... You need to be consistent not opportunist.


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## Stephen Cohen

Dash said:


> Sometimes the best times become your worst nightmare.. Ask US and Pakistan



If you want to discuss this topic of US Pakistan relations and US India relations 
-- Then please open another thread -- I dont want to discuss it here 

I can suggest a title too " Will US India relations go the same way as US Pakistan relations "

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> Offtopic: I don't think Arihant and the SSNs will carry imported weapons. The requirement is for purely Indian tech. France will get in trouble if they provide weapons to India's strategic programs.



Ya off topic.. But I will discuss one small Point and close 

That's why varunastra.. But it's nt at the same league.

By the way 48 additional blackshark was requested by IN for Arihant project to MOD at one go with original order.

Unless varunastra is here or via tech help from F21 makers, we don't have a choice.. The need is 342 or say 350.. It's either our own or mix of own, imported or own and MII product..

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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> @PARIKRAMA @randomradio @Abingdonboy
> 
> We must see one more aspect when it comes to deals with USA
> 
> Right now US ego is hurt and US Pakistan relations are bad
> 
> so US is looking to MAKE a POINT ( Make them realise That USA is the most resourceful ally )
> to our neighbours and also to China
> 
> So for us this is the Best time to get a great deal from the USA


Why are fighters the only fare anyone seems to be taking about in this regard? Going for EMALS, MQ-4Cs and an Indian C-130XJ production line would be just as strategically significant as a fighter deal. 

I think many are getting too carried away by Boeing/LM's propaganda. Look at the pathetic state of DTTI to see how far away India and the US are to signing a fighter deal. The most they are offering India is the co-production of the hand held Raven UAV at this point!

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## Stephen Cohen

Mysticbuddy said:


> Don't act like Pakistan... You need to be consistent not opportunist.



You are right ; but this is a great opportunity for India

Secondly we are not going to be like Pakistan -- do you think we will be duplicitious or betray you 

Our alliance is Anti China And NOT Anti Russia -- we have made that pretty clear



Abingdonboy said:


> The most they are offering India is the co-production of the hand held Raven UAV at this point!



It is time to PUSH the envelope


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## randomradio

Mysticbuddy said:


> I respect you as a person so please do not take the following personally.
> 
> Your first statement is hilarious as this would be the first in history as French were trying to make something else and it ending up becoming that and air superiority fighter as well. This was the sole contest between the French and the eurofighter consortium. French perceived the threat of su27 as just problem for all states and needed exports as well. They already had a flourishing mirage campaign. Whereas the other countries wanted a frontline / air superiority fighter. Edited so bad use of English. On iPhone



Everybody wants an aircraft that has been designed for air superiority, but can also handle other missions. The Rafale is just that. The Rafale ended up being exactly what the French wanted to make.

The Typhoon has been a badly handled program. So most of its development path towards mulltirole capability has been blocked for some reason or the other.



> I know what PMF or PAK-FA is. The only thing that is working is T-50 and even Russia acknowledged the same. Pak-fa is the Russian version of the t50 concept. Currently it's su35 with a different skin. FGFA or PMF is still up in the air and it doesn't mean flying.



That's irrelevant because that's how development programs are. Similarly, the F-35 that you call it today is not the F-35. It is not even a fighter aircraft today. Both FGFA and F-35 are WIP.

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## Dash

Stephen Cohen said:


> If you want to discuss this topic of US Pakistan relations and US India relations
> -- Then please open another thread -- I dont want to discuss it here
> 
> I can suggest a title too " Will US India relations go the same way as US Pakistan relations "



Opening another thread is unwarranted. But I personally don't want anybody spreading ideas that are not not going to work in a thread such as this.

I will welcome to have a conversation in another thread when the need comes. For the time being we can put it to rest.

Agreed


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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> It is time to PUSH the envelope


This is what both sides have been saying for YEARS but there is almost nothing to show for it. For whatever reason India And the US just don't "fit" and the systems seem incompatible despite the grandiose rhetoric of being "natural partners".

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## Stephen Cohen

Dash said:


> Opening another thread is unwarranted. But I personally don't want anybody spreading ideas that are not not going to work in a thread such as this.
> 
> I will welcome to have a conversation in another thread when the need comes. For the time being we can put it to rest.
> 
> Agreed



This is quite a fascinating subject 

There are many opinions on it -- many members would like to have a say 

Infact we do get advice on how to be wary of USA 

And there are also forecasts made here ; how US will dump us too



Abingdonboy said:


> This is what both sides have been saying for YEARS but there is almost nothing to show for it. For whatever reason India And the US just don't "fit" and the systems seem incompatible despite the grandiose rhetoric of being "natural partners".



Well things are getting better than before -- let us wait and watch 

I am optimistic about India US relations and the benefits that they will bring to us 

http://indianexpress.com/article/wo...nship-closer-than-ever-ashton-carter-2865232/


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## Dash

Stephen Cohen said:


> This is quite a fascinating subject
> 
> There are many opinions on it -- many members would like to have a say
> 
> Infact we do get advice on how to be wary of USA
> 
> And there are also forecasts made here ; how US will dump us too



Ok. Tag those members who want to have a say

I want to take permission from @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @randomradio @Vauban @PARIKRAMA to have this conversation.


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## Mysticbuddy

randomradio said:


> Everybody wants an aircraft that has been designed for air superiority, but can also handle other missions. The Rafale is just that. The Rafale ended up being exactly what the French wanted to make.
> 
> The Typhoon has been a badly handled program. So most of its development path towards mulltirole capability has been blocked for some reason or the other.
> 
> 
> 
> That's irrelevant because that's how development programs are. Similarly, the F-35 that you call it today is not the F-35. It is not even a fighter aircraft today. Both FGFA and F-35 are WIP.


I didn't wanted to respond but just food for your thought how many each has been produced.


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## Jai Bharat

This talk about F-16, F-35 seems pointless unless CISMOA and BECA are signed. Without which no American jets have a chance. I expected some movement or talk about these during Modi's US visit, but to no avail. I have not heard any movement on either of these key agreements in some while, so far only a tweaked version of LSA has been signed. If India doesn't sign, I don't see Uncle Sam selling the fighters, even if it is a 'match made in heaven'.

Pakistan having F-16 and giving full access to China also seems like a major hit for the LM offer. I just don't see it happening, even if follow-on F-35 is as magical and cost-effective as LM claims.

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## Taygibay

No confusion here despite random noise!
In fact, a post that outlines in one paragraph
_that Dassault cannot talk but that MP does_
shows the problem I have identified to exist.

Uneven ground = uneven results.

Tay.


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## Piper

Stephen Cohen said:


> Our alliance is Anti China And NOT Anti Russia -- we have made that pretty clear



What alliance? The one where India pussyfoots around even naming China as an aggressor? one were it wets itself when ever "joint patrol" is mentioned?

This is the theater of absurd. India has neither the guts nor the motivation to even fight with words let alone involve itself in an alliance against China.

If it would have been any other country with resources India has then it would have turned the offending parties to dust but all India can do is posture while clearly defined and targeted attempts are made in it's own territory by nation 1/7 it's size.

Often times I wonder why India even needs all this fancy hardware? Is it all for your Independence Day parade party or are you ever gonna use to punish? War is being fought in your territory. In Kashmir and in your cities, In my opinion you have already lost when the smaller party has the temerity to fight you in your own home!

Learn from history - You never fight wars in your home, you fight it in your enemy's home.

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## randomradio

Mysticbuddy said:


> I didn't wanted to respond but just food for your thought how many each has been produced.



No operational version has been made.



Taygibay said:


> No confusion here despite random noise!
> In fact, a post that outlines in one paragraph
> _that Dassault cannot talk but that MP does_
> shows the problem I have identified to exist.
> 
> Uneven ground = uneven results.
> 
> Tay.



The 'random' 'noise' only makes sense to the initiated. Your frustration is due to your lack of information. You don't need to insult others just because you can't take it.

Yes, you are confused, because you don't know anything that's been happening. You have become a victim of propaganda.

Oh, just so it's clear, some Rafales will be exported from India.



Piper said:


> What alliance? The one where India pussyfoots around even naming China as an aggressor? one were it wets itself when ever "joint patrol" is mentioned?
> 
> This is the theater of absurd. India has neither the guts nor the motivation to even fight with words let alone involve itself in an alliance against China.
> 
> If it would have been any other country with resources India has then it would have turned the offending parties to dust but all India can do is posture while clearly defined and targeted attempts are made in it's own territory by nation 1/7 it's size.
> 
> Often times I wonder why India even needs all this fancy hardware? Is it all for your Independence Day parade party or are you ever gonna use to punish? War is being fought in your territory. In Kashmir and in your cities, In my opinion you have already lost when the smaller party has the temerity to fight you in your own home!
> 
> Learn from history - You never fight wars in your home, you fight it in your enemy's home.



Wets itself? Nope. India's a lone wolf. We don't do alliances. Even the US has begun to accept that.

We patrol alone.

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## Taygibay

I'm not frustrated in the least and I haven't insulted anyone.

Sorry, Tay.


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## SR-91

Abingdonboy said:


> This is what both sides have been saying for YEARS but there is almost nothing to show for it. For whatever reason India And the US just don't "fit" and the systems seem incompatible despite the grandiose rhetoric of being "natural partners".



LOL!!!!
There is nothing natural about India and US partnership. They are totally different animals. 
It just won't work.

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## C130

I still think the wiser move would be to go for F/A 18 Advance Super Hornets along with 5 to 10 E-2D Advance Hawkeyes








both could be used on land or on India future aircraft carriers


combination of Advance Super Hornet+AIM-120D+E-2D would be a deadly force against anybody

https://defence.pk/threads/revealed-japans-secret-weapon-to-destroy-chinas-j-20-and-j-31.402308/

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## raj76

F-15 + F-18 both pls


C130 said:


> I still think the wiser move would be to go for F/A 18 Advance Super Hornets along with 5 to 10 E-2D Advance Hawkeyes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> both could be used on land or on India future aircraft carriers
> 
> 
> combination of Advance Super Hornet+AIM-120D+E-2D would be a deadly force against anybody
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/revealed-japans-secret-weapon-to-destroy-chinas-j-20-and-j-31.402308/




F-15 + F-18 both no F-16s

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## C130

raj76 said:


> F-15 + F-18 both pls
> 
> 
> 
> F-15 + F-18 both no F-16s




Su-30MKI is better than F-15


would be a waste of money


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## raj76

C130 said:


> Su-30MKI is better than F-15
> 
> 
> would be a waste of money



u pls just count money dont bother our waste (which u dont) after 100% FDI F16+F18+ engines manufacturing in india
F35 atm overkill in our region

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## PARIKRAMA

lmao






rafale!!!!hahaha

@randomradio @Abingdonboy

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## BON PLAN

PARIKRAMA said:


> No idea as I was told DM is not yet signing things.
> 
> It seems he wishes to seek some tech bargaining in F21 HWT for Indian programs varunastra
> 
> The requirement is now much higher
> 18 HWT pee scorpene
> 6+3 = 9 scorpenes
> So 162 torpedoes
> Assume similar number for Arihant class so at least 18x4= 72
> And add approx same numbers for 6SSN
> 18x6=108
> 
> 
> So a ball park figure of 342 HWT required. Now F21 will meet majorly or entirely depending upon cost and technology provided to us. So I expect a little more haggling to be done here and there.
> 
> I am not optimistic for June at all


Don't you think Scorpene will also bring some exocet SM39? saying 4 or 6. so a need of "only" 12 to 14 F21 per sub.

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## PARIKRAMA

BON PLAN said:


> Don't you think Scorpene will also bring some exocet SM39? saying 4 or 6. so a need of "only" 12 to 14 F21 per sub.



6 exocets a sub as of now for 6 scorpenes

It's true so requirement will be 12 per sub excluding spares and trial testing ones.

Depending upon mission config of course.

At best scorpene can carry 18 torpedo+ missiles or around 28-30 mines.

In that sense yes with say 25%spares it can be closer to 135 F21 instead of 162 for 9 scorpenes (6+3follow on)


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## BON PLAN

raj76 said:


> F-15 + F-18 both pls
> 
> 
> 
> F-15 + F-18 both no F-16s


Why not F22 IN ????


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## GURU DUTT

C130 said:


> I still think the wiser move would be to go for F/A 18 Advance Super Hornets along with 5 to 10 E-2D Advance Hawkeyes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> both could be used on land or on India future aircraft carriers
> 
> 
> combination of Advance Super Hornet+AIM-120D+E-2D would be a deadly force against anybody
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/revealed-japans-secret-weapon-to-destroy-chinas-j-20-and-j-31.402308/


but rafale+meteor+phalcon is even more deadlier pakage as with rafale you dont need extra fighters as escort when in a high risk SEAD /DEAD mission

as for american fighter i guess most probabally its gonna be F/A-18 E/F as it has longer legs and stealth gondola and CFT for extra fuel and is the best carrier based multi role fighter plus the cherry on the cake is that it has enigne comminality with LCA

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## BON PLAN

GURU DUTT said:


> as for american fighter i guess most probabally its gonna be F/A-18 E/F as it has longer legs and stealth gondola and CFT for extra fuel and is the best carrier based multi role fighter plus the cherry on the cake is that it has enigne comminality with LCA


SH18 best carrier based fighter? 
Rafale has longer legs, best loading capacity (from the same catapult. ie don't compare a 75m Charles de Gaulle catapult with a 90m US carrier one), best handling capacity, best weapons not used return to carrier capacity.
SH has only a bigger radar, so most probably a greater radar range.

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## GURU DUTT

BON PLAN said:


> SH18 best carrier based fighter?
> Rafale has longer legs, best loading capacity (from the same catapult. ie don't compare a 75m Charles de Gaulle catapult with a 90m US carrier one), best handling capacity, best weapons not used return to carrier capacity.
> SH has only a bigger radar, so most probably a greater radar range.


i know all that even IN wants rafale M for IAC1 and IAF is adamant for rafale but MOD has already decided to for an extra foreign fighter and since F16 is a single engined fighter and PAF already using it besdies we need a new doctroine around it hence the american fighter thats making more sense is super hornet but i may be wrong as there are some rumors that since USAF is looking some one to buy its F16s which its replacing with F35 and IAF seems to be perfect candidate and USA in proincipal agreed to upgrade them to F16V level with latest WVRs, BVRs and other SOMs, SDBs , PGMs ect ect and even the complete assymbally line and this time MOD is in no mood to miss another chance which it once missed when freanch were ready to transfer same type fopr there M2Ks


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## Perpendicular

Piper said:


> India pussyfoots around even naming China as an aggressor?


Agreed, we lack self confidence or it might be the history still holding us down.



Piper said:


> India has neither the guts nor the motivation to even fight with words let alone involve itself in an alliance against China.


Agreed again. Our actions do suggest sometimes about that motivation issue.


Piper said:


> Learn from history - You never fight wars in your home, you fight it in your enemy


Oh yes, India did respond, it responded strong enough to force a change. You have to look deeper while zooming out on the region a bit.
Although residue is still there in kashmir, but you have to count this that the situation we are faced with is similar to a situation where you are dealing with someone on a suicide mission and is willing to harm you in the meantime.

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## Agent_47

Piper said:


> *Often times I wonder why India even needs all this fancy hardware?* Is it all for your Independence Day parade party or are you ever gonna use to punish? War is being fought in your territory.


India need fancy hardware because India faces real threat from two nuclear armed nations and faced 5 wars in its rather small existence. India need arms because enemies are sending terrorists every day to kill our civilians. Indian need army because it is one of the factors keep india as one.

Unlike some countries who have no adversaries in its entire continent but still have a $700 billion defence budget just to keep military industrial complex running and insist on meddling in internal matters of almost every country on earth just to keep its self interest.



Piper said:


> If it would have been any other country with resources India has then it would have turned the offending parties to dust but all India can do is posture while clearly defined and targeted attempts are made in it's own territory by nation 1/7 it's size.


Isn't it ironic that a small organisation called Al qaeda and a leader called Osama managed to uproot conscience of the worlds most powerful nation and made them lose in trillions on war. You have lost more men in that war than we lost in our war against jihadists.



Piper said:


> In Kashmir and in your cities, In my opinion you have already lost when the smaller party has the temerity to fight you in your own home!
> Learn from history - You never fight wars in your home, you fight it in your enemy's home.


We are real* Indians, * We take glory in dying on motherland by serving it not in some foreign land. You won't understand the feeling, ask *Red indians* they can help.

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## PARIKRAMA

I said about DCNS doing the 100% FDI route and bringing critical tech ..
See below.. 
This infographic is in response to yesterday increasing of FDI or rather relaxing the rules a bit.

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## Perpendicular

C130 said:


> I still think the wiser move would be to go for F/A 18 Advance Super Hornets along with 5 to 10 E-2D Advance Hawkeyes

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## C130

GURU DUTT said:


> but rafale+meteor+falcon is even more deadlier pakage as with rafale you dont need extra fighters as escort when in a high risk SEAD /DEAD mission
> 
> as for american fighter i guess most probabally its gonna be F/A-18 E/F as it has longer legs and stealth gondola and CFT for extra fuel and is the best carrier based multi role fighter plus the cherry on the cake is that it has enigne comminality with LCA




ummm you are right, but when you take into costs for the Rafale the ASH still is tempting.

if you want SEAD/DEAD the Growler is perfect for that. yeah it isn't one package deal like the Rafale, but it'll get the job done.







two squadrons of Growlers=24
four squadrons of F/A 18 E/F for future India aircraft carrier=48
five squadrons of F/A 18 ASH=60

that's 132 aircraft 6 over what you wanted for MMRCA


assuming each is around $70 million flyaway cost that's $9.2 billion, add another $5 billion for weapons and other stuff and that's not a bad deal.

total life cycle cost is probably more than Rafale.

how much ToT and Make in India is another story.

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## GURU DUTT

C130 said:


> ummm you are right, but when you take into costs for the Rafale the ASH still is tempting.
> 
> if you want SEAD/DEAD the Growler is perfect for that. yeah it isn't one package deal like the Rafale, but it'll get the job done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> two squadrons of Growlers=24
> four squadrons of F/A 18 E/F for future India aircraft carrier=48
> five squadrons of F/A 18 ASH=60
> 
> that's 132 aircraft 6 over what you wanted for MMRCA
> 
> 
> assuming each is around $70 million flyaway cost that's $9.2 billion, add another $5 billion for weapons and what stuff and that's not a bad deal
> 
> 
> how much ToT and Make in India is another story.


sure super hornet is a great pakage and gives great political milage to india and has engine comminality with LCA aswell but its not something great or say economical as compared to rafale as there is just a diffrence of some 10-15 million dollars per pop in fly away condition while comes almost same as when calculated in over all costs 

but what makes rafale the winner is ita load carrying capacity with its sensror fussion and ofcourse SPECTRA and onli role powress as a single rafale can do job of a super hornet and a growler in the same sortie and is better for low level SEAD-DEAD-CSA type missions than super hornet



Perpendicular said:


> View attachment 312206


 sirji aap jangee tayyarre kee baat ker rahe ho ya koi sports car ki

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## Grevion

PARIKRAMA said:


> lmao
> 
> View attachment 312189
> 
> 
> rafale!!!!hahaha
> 
> @randomradio @Abingdonboy


But rafale is already choosen! Why should we choose again?? Is our media that naive?


Perpendicular said:


> View attachment 312206


We can have it in the stars and strips for all that matter.(no hard feelings here as I respect the american flag as much as I respect the Indian one)
But that would be a no go in India.

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## GURU DUTT

litefire said:


> But rafale is already choosen! Why should we choose again?? Is our media that naive?
> 
> We can have it in the stars and strips if we want.(no hard feelings here as I respect the american flag as I respect the Indian flag)
> But that would be a no go in India.


thiong is indian paid media presstitutes are all for grippen due to SAAB having the biggest PR budget in any defence OEM currently marketing its products in indian defnce market

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## Perpendicular

GURU DUTT said:


> sirji aap jangee tayyarre kee baat ker rahe ho ya koi sports car ki


Jadeed Jungi tayaara, guru ji 



litefire said:


> We can have it in the stars and strips for all we want.(no hard feelings here as I respect the american flag as I respect the Indian flag)
> But that would be a no go in India.


Actually I like the Roundel of IAF back to the one used from 1947 to 1950.

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## Abingdonboy

C130 said:


> I still think the wiser move would be to go for F/A 18 Advance Super Hornets along with 5 to 10 E-2D Advance Hawkeyes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> both could be used on land or on India future aircraft carriers
> 
> 
> combination of Advance Super Hornet+AIM-120D+E-2D would be a deadly force against anybody
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/revealed-japans-secret-weapon-to-destroy-chinas-j-20-and-j-31.402308/


The IAF has no use for the E-2D but the Indian navy is interested in it however they aren't interested in the F-18. 


I still fail to see why the unfunded "advanced super hornet" is a better option than than the Rafale. It would cost fluky the same (if not more so), have less outright performance, be limited by the restrictive end user agreements the US would impose and would not be able to be used as nuclear delivery platforms.

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## BON PLAN

GURU DUTT said:


> sure super hornet is a great pakage and gives great political milage to india and has engine comminality with LCA aswell but its not something great or say economical as compared to rafale as there is just a diffrence of some 10-15 million dollars per pop in fly away condition while comes almost same as when calculated in over all costs
> 
> but what makes rafale the winner is ita load carrying capacity with its sensror fussion and ofcourse SPECTRA and onli role powress as a single rafale can do job of a super hornet and a growler in the same sortie and is better for low level SEAD-DEAD-CSA type missions than super hornet
> 
> 
> sirji aap jangee tayyarre kee baat ker rahe ho ya koi sports car ki


India is a big country.
You already have (or in a near futur) : Tejas,
One MMRCA
Futur FGFA
SU30
and a fleet of upgraded M2000 and Mig29

Do you really need another MMRCA ? Isn't a waste of money?

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## Abingdonboy

C130 said:


> ummm you are right, but when you take into costs for the Rafale the ASH still is tempting.
> 
> if you want SEAD/DEAD the Growler is perfect for that. yeah it isn't one package deal like the Rafale, but it'll get the job done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> two squadrons of Growlers=24
> four squadrons of F/A 18 E/F for future India aircraft carrier=48
> five squadrons of F/A 18 ASH=60
> 
> that's 132 aircraft 6 over what you wanted for MMRCA
> 
> 
> assuming each is around $70 million flyaway cost that's $9.2 billion, add another $5 billion for weapons and other stuff and that's not a bad deal.
> 
> total life cycle cost is probably more than Rafale.
> 
> how much ToT and Make in India is another story.


These costs are imaginary my friend and I don't know where you are getting them from. The RAAF paid far more for the E/F Super Hornets, there is no way the ASH would be sold to India at that price point. The ASH is still a paper plane with no customers as of yet and no one outside of Boeing could tell us exactly what it would cost in a flyaway condition but it certainly wouldn't be significantly cheaper than the Rafale, I'd wager it may actually cost more than the Rafales the IAF will get.



BON PLAN said:


> India is a big country.
> You already have (or in a near futur) : Tejas,
> One MMRCA
> Futur FGFA
> SU30
> and a fleet of upgraded M2000 and Mig29
> 
> Do you really need another MMRCA ? Isn't a waste of money?


I total waste of money but who cares, right? When you have a media so disconnected from reality that don't even try to hide their bias or how compromised they are by bribery and a DM who is more interested in optics and perceptions to further his own political career the last question on anyone's mind is about cost effectiveness or the utility or the poor chaps who have to fight in these machines.

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## ashish1

N


BON PLAN said:


> India is a big country.
> You already have (or in a near futur) : Tejas,
> One MMRCA
> Futur FGFA
> SU30
> and a fleet of upgraded M2000 and Mig29
> 
> Do you really need another MMRCA ? Isn't a waste of money?


NO IT CANNOT BE A WASTE OF MONEY. If something is getting added to IAF then it will evetually help india in wars which will go on for longer period.APPLY "COMMON SENSE" my fellow friend.


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## Abingdonboy

GURU DUTT said:


> thiong is indian paid media presstitutes are all for grippen due to SAAB having the biggest PR budget in any defence OEM currently marketing its products in indian defnce market


Presstitutes to the core.

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## GURU DUTT

BON PLAN said:


> India is a big country.
> You already have (or in a near futur) : Tejas,
> One MMRCA
> Futur FGFA
> SU30
> and a fleet of upgraded M2000 and Mig29
> 
> Do you really need another MMRCA ? Isn't a waste of money?


not exactly as we are short of fighters deu to potential two front war and we need US support so buying another MRCA/american fighter is more for a tactical and politcial obligation

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## Abingdonboy

ashish1 said:


> N
> 
> NO IT CANNOT BE A WASTE OF MONEY. If something is getting added to IAF then it will evetually help india in wars which will go on for longer period.APPLY "COMMON SENSE" my fellow friend.


You have missed the entire purpose of his post brother. He is not saying that the plans themselves are pointless but the DUPLICATION OF SERVICES/WEAPONS/SPARES etc etc is HIGHLY inefficient and a complete waste of money. 

Basically, he is talking about how India is ignoring economies of scale.



Perpendicular said:


> Jadeed Jungi tayaara, guru ji
> 
> 
> Actually I like the Roundel of IAF back to the one used from 1947 to 1950.


Those chakra roundals were glorious and distinctive, I have no idea why the IAF switched to these dull and typical fin flashes that look like the Irish flag.

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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> India is a big country.
> You already have (or in a near futur) : Tejas,
> One MMRCA
> Futur FGFA
> SU30
> and a fleet of upgraded M2000 and Mig29
> 
> Do you really need another MMRCA ? Isn't a waste of money?



Two words: Aerospace Industry


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## Abingdonboy

GURU DUTT said:


> not exactly as we are short of fighters deu to potential two front war and we need US support so buying another MRCA/american fighter is more for a tactical and politcial obligation


I seriously worry for the IAF if they induct an American fighter. The trouble would be the IAF would then have to play by THEIR rules. With a French/Swedish/Indian/Russian product/fighter India can largely customise it to the requirement of the user(s)- fit Indian data links, IFF, secured comns, nav systems, integrate third party sub systems etc etc as well as integrate Indian weapons and this will be increasingly relevant as the R&D efforts of DRDO and others bare more and more fruit. However, the US is unique in the conditions that their products and especially fighters are sold with. The end user agreements would mean entire sections of the IAF's own planes were sealed and inaccessible to anyone outside of the OEM(Boeing). Furthermore would these American assets really integrate into the Indian military as well as any aforementioned nation's fighters? I'm not so sure, we saw the issues in Red Flag 2008 where NATO assets weren't able to data link with the IAF MKIs who were using their Indian data links.


Unless India can get iron clad assurances that it will be left alone to operate its own assets as it chooses then F-22s sold at cost price aren't even worth the loss of sovereignty such a purchase would entail. And India will NEVER get anything like such assurances, there is nothing unique about how the US views India, see how they treat their closest "friends", they would treat India just the same. And this isn't an anti American rant, every nation would act the same if they were in the US's position. Everyone looks out for their interests, there are no free lunches.



randomradio said:


> Two words: Aerospace Industry


And if Boeing are insisting on a 100% owned subsidiary to make their F-18s in India how does india's aerospace industry benefit?

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> And if Boeing are insisting on a 100% owned subsidiary to make their F-18s in India how does india's aerospace industry benefit?



Won't make a difference. Indian companies will be producing the aircraft. Boeing wants to hold on to their IPR through the 100% subsidy, but they will transfer tech to all the Indian companies involved.

What we want is manufacturing facilities in India, with Indian manpower working on the jet. That's what will build the aerospace industry, not IPR. Their IPR can go to hell, their tech will be old compared to other programs like FGFA and AMCA anyway which will make it entirely irrelevant.

Tata produces the fuselage, HAL produces the engines, L&T produces the radar etc, that's what we are aiming for. Boeing plan to have their entire SH production line transferred to Indian companies while Boeing will merely be an integrator + IPR holder. Maybe not even an integrator, they will most likely at best have one or two offices in Delhi and other cities for managing the project at best.


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## [Bregs]

Abingdonboy said:


> I *seriously worry for the IAF if they induct an American fighter.* The trouble would be the IAF would then have to play by THEIR rules. With a French/Swedish/Indian/Russian product/fighter India can largely customise it to the requirement of the user(s)- fit Indian data links, IFF, secured comns, nav systems, integrate third party sub systems etc etc as well as integrate Indian weapons and this will be increasingly relevant as the R&D efforts of DRDO and others bare more and more fruit. However, the US is unique in the conditions that their products and especially fighters are sold with. The end user agreements would mean entire sections of the IAF's own planes were sealed and inaccessible to anyone outside of the OEM(Boeing). Furthermore would these American assets really integrate into the Indian military as well as any aforementioned nation's fighters? I'm not so sure, we saw the issues in Red Flag 2008 where NATO assets weren't able to data link with the IAF MKIs who were using their Indian data links.
> 
> 
> Unless India can get iron clad assurances that it will be left alone to operate its own assets as it chooses then F-22s sold at cost price aren't even worth the loss of sovereignty such a purchase would entail. And India will NEVER get anything like such assurances, there is nothing unique about how the US views India, see how they treat their closest "friends", they would treat India just the same. And this isn't an anti American rant, every nation would act the same if they were in the US's position. Everyone looks out for their interests, there are no free lunches.
> 
> 
> And if Boeing are insisting on a 100% owned subsidiary to make their F-18s in India how does india's aerospace industry benefit?



The way our govt is blending strategically with US, they will 100% oblige them of a fighter deal and which one this gonna be ?


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## GURU DUTT

[Bregs] said:


> The way our govt is blending strategically with US, they will 100% oblige them of a fighter deal and which one this gonna be ?


F16V is better placed as LM is ready to shift entire production and assembally line to india with all kinds of toolings and rigs plus the propects of F35 maybe even in MII but boeing has a better plane but downside is its very complex and expensive why not rafale instead of super hornet when rafale is 40% more potent inevery field than super hornet i guess

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## [Bregs]

GURU DUTT said:


> F16V is better placed as LM is ready to shift entire production and assembally line to india with all kinds of toolings and rigs plus the propects of F35 maybe even in MII but boeing has a better plane but downside is its very complex and expensive why not rafale instead of super hornet when rafale is 40% more potent inevery field than super hornet i guess



Bro with such a crucial weapon system, the sword of end user agreement will always hang on ur head. India-china two way trade after 2020 will be around 400-500b $ per annum and we are not going to have same relations with them with such a high economic stake for both. and diffrences in relations with US are going to come for sure


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## Abingdonboy

GURU DUTT said:


> F16V is better placed as LM is ready to shift entire production and assembally line to india with all kinds of toolings and rigs plus the propects of F35 maybe even in MII but boeing has a better plane but downside is its very complex and expensive why not rafale instead of super hornet when rafale is 40% more potent inevery field than super hornet i guess


You've made a very clear case for no US fighters being inducted. No matter what anyone says, a single engined MMRCA is a LCA killer and this fact alone makes it untenable for any government. And trust me, no one in India's power circles sees the F-35 As a "sweetener" at all. Not only is it going to be horrendously expensive to operate, will come almost entirely closed to India (not even "teir 1" partners such as the UK get much access to the actual guts of the machine), is sub optimal for the tasks the IAF wants and would get beaten by the Rafale more often than LM would care to admit, but tell me why the IAF should be the ONLY airforce in the world operating THREE entirely different types of 5th gen/VLO fighter. If you're asking for a nightmare scenario this is it. Low availability, high cost VLO aircraft sat idle in their hangers for a significant period of time requiring intensive maintainence after every flight whilst the enemy with nothing but numbers on its side is at the fence. A mix of high availability 4.5++ and 5th gen VLO are needed along with next gen UCAVs, it makes no sense to put all your eggs in one basket because I assure you this weakness would be discovered at the worst possible time. 

As far as the F-18 goes, Boeing are equally desperate to shift the production line to India if India assures them of mammoth sales (>100 units). These days the market for the F-18 has all but dried up and thus Boeing would me more than happy to offload the production to India and continue to earn handsome revenues for this long in the tooth product.

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## GURU DUTT

[Bregs] said:


> Bro with such a crucial weapon system, the sword of end user agreement will always hang on ur head. India-china two way trade after 2020 will be around 400-500b $ per annum and we are not going to have same relations with them with such a high economic stake for both. and diffrences in relations with US are going to come for sure


thing is that possibility is already taken care off as nothing goes as per plan but since china despite all that trade is leaving no chance to antagonise india we cant trust china aswell and have to take sides or will be on recieveing end from both the opposing parties ... we have to stand up and take a stance till we are strong enof to deal with them on our oun



Abingdonboy said:


> You've made a very clear case for no US fighters being inducted. No matter what anyone says, a single engined MMRCA is a LCA killer and this fact alone makes it untenable for any government. And trust me, no one in India's power circles sees the F-35 As a "sweetener" at all. Not only is it going to be horrendously expensive to operate, will come almost entirely closed to India (not even "teir 1" partners such as the UK get much access to the actual guts of the machine), is sub optimal for the tasks the IAF wants and would get beaten by the Rafale more often than LM would care to admit, but tell me why the IAF should be the ONLY airforce in the world operating THREE entirely different types of 5th gen/VLO fighter. If you're asking for a nightmare scenario this is it. Low availability, high cost VLO aircraft sat idle in their hangers for a significant period of time requiring intensive maintainence after every flight whilst the enemy with nothing but numbers on its side is at the fence. A mix of high availability 4.5++ and 5th gen VLO are needed along with next gen UCAVs, it makes no sense to put all your eggs in one basket because I assure you this weakness would be discovered at the worst possible time.
> 
> As far as the F-18 goes, Boeing are equally desperate to shift the production line to India if India assures them of mammoth sales (>100 units). These days the market for the F-18 has all but dried up and thus Boeing would me more than happy to offload the production to India and continue to earn handsome revenues for this long in the tooth product.


well F16 cause israelies and americans both are replacing there F16s with F35 hence a mere upgrade and its plug and play for immidiate dilliveries to adress shortfall in squadran strength of IAF

while F18 is a better product but at same price as rafale and we all know rafale is much much better lets hope for the best

as for LCA well F16V wont be LCA killer as aef sollah is a medium wirght and will be a frontline strike fighter while LCA is a light point defnce one

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## Abingdonboy

[Bregs] said:


> The way our govt is blending strategically with US, they will 100% oblige them of a fighter deal and which one this gonna be ?


Really? Sorry bro but I don't see it. What has the Indo-US relationship actually delivered from a strategic perspective in the past 10 years? Almost nothing worth mentioning but a whole lot of empty rhetoric along the way. India gave them a fair chance earlier this year but they frankly insulted India with the offer they made- no ToT, no co-production with an Indian partner and no formal clearance from US congress for critical tech that the OEMs were offering (basically that they had no right to do) all for price points not dissimilar to the Rafale offer which comes with none of the strings attached of American products.

And this is now largely redundant as the US presidential election ramps up meaning that indo-US relations freeze for the next 18-24 months at least. Who knows what the next POTUS will be inclined to do for India. Under this much ambiguity the French are the complete reverse and are highly dependable and credible.



GURU DUTT said:


> thing is that possibility is already taken care off as nothing goes as per plan but since china despite all that trade is leaving no chance to antagonise india we cant trust china aswell and have to take sides or will be on recieveing end from both the opposing parties ... we have to stand up and take a stance till we are strong enof to deal with them on our oun
> 
> 
> well F16 cause israelies and americans both are replacing there F16s with F35 hence a mere upgrade and its plug and play for immidiate dilliveries to adress shortfall in squadran strength of
> 
> as for LCA well F16V wont be LCA killer as aef sollah is a medium wirght and will be a frontline strike fighter while LCA is a light point defnce one


See this is where the F-16 makes zero sense for the IAF. The F-16 is NOT a strike fighter, it may have all these trinkets and bells added to it over the years from block to block but it is and will never be a optimised ground pounder. It has a very mediocre payload capacity, limited low level strike ability and a highly limited range. Its MTOW may be quite a bit more than the LCA's but it is significantly less than the Rafale's (40% or more) and doesn't have the "legs" to take the fight to the enemy in their territory. Incidentally the Rafale has the highest payload and MTOW ratio to empty weight of any fighter in its class, the F18 E/F is about 40% larger than the Rafale but carries 3,000+ pounds less payload. It may suit the PAF's defensive doctrine that centres around A2A combat but it doesn't have any place within the IAF at all UNLESS it is that of the single engined air defence fighter and thus it would truly be stepping on the LCA's toes.


Thusly, the F-16 is either a LCA killer or an orphan for the IAF.

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## GURU DUTT

Abingdonboy said:


> Really? Sorry bro but I don't see it. What has the Indo-US relationship actually delivered from a strategic perspective in the past 10 years? Almost nothing worth mentioning but a whole lot of empty rhetoric along the way. India gave them a fair chance earlier this year but they frankly insulted India with the offer they made- no ToT, no co-production with an Indian partner and no formal clearance from US congress for critical tech that the OEMs were offering (basically that they had no right to do) all for price points not dissimilar to the Rafale offer which comes with none of the strings attached of American products.
> 
> And this is now largely redundant as the US presidential election ramps up meaning that indo-US relations freeze for the next 18-24 months at least. Who knows what the next POTUS will be inclined to do for India. Under this much ambiguity the French are the complete reverse and are highly dependable and credible.
> 
> 
> See this is where the F-16 makes zero sense for the IAF. The F-16 is NOT a strike fighter, it may have all these trinkets and bells added to it over the years from block to block but it is and will never be a optimised ground pounder. It has a very mediocre payload capacity, limited low level strike ability and a highly limited range. Its MTOW may be quite a bit more than the LCA's but it is significantly less than the Rafale's (40% or more) and doesn't have the "legs" to take the fight to the enemy in their territory. It may suit the PAF's defensive doctrine that centres around A2A combat but it doesn't have any place within the IAF at all UNLESS it is that of the single engined air defence fighter and thus it would truly be stepping on the LCA's toes.
> 
> 
> Thusly, the F-16 is either a LCA killer or an orphan for the IAF.


but bhai ji with latest AESA radar and new improoved latest gen avionicks suits and one of the most potent weapons package and 7.5 tonne load carrying capacity with option of CVT (which gives it a combat radius of some 700 km ) i guess its more than enof for westorn sector while MKI & rafale can take care of northen sector

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## Abingdonboy

GURU DUTT said:


> but bhai ji with latest AESA radar and new improoved latest gen avionicks suits and one of the most potent weapons package and 7.5 tonne load carrying capacity with option of CVT (which gives it a combat radius of some 700 km ) i guess its more than enof for westorn sector while MKI & rafale can take care of northen sector


So you want to fight F-16s with F-16s? This is another part where the entire proposal falls down. The PAF know the bird intimately, it would be foolish to think that some spruced up versions with upgraded electronics will give the IAF a clear edge over them in the same bloody birds! How stupid is the DM and Indian media that this proposal is (supposedly) even being taken seriously? What other adversaries are operating identical equipment? 


The mind boggles.

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## BON PLAN

ashish1 said:


> N
> 
> NO IT CANNOT BE A WASTE OF MONEY. If something is getting added to IAF then it will evetually help india in wars which will go on for longer period.APPLY "COMMON SENSE" my fellow friend.


Bro,

SH18 has nothing more to offer than Rafale has. And the contrary is not true....
Except a bigger radar, so maybe a bigger range, but SH is also less stealthy, so not cruxial.

With the commercial power and military umbrella of USA, do you really think than if SH18 was a so impressiv machine, only 24 were selled on export ?

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## BON PLAN

GURU DUTT said:


> not exactly as we are short of fighters deu to potential two front war and we need US support so buying another MRCA/american fighter is more for a tactical and politcial obligation


Only a political reason. And it's a very good reason. The only to select SH18, because tacticaly SH is not a good choice.



randomradio said:


> Two words: Aerospace Industry


I'm not sure to understand you post.

But do you really expect US will help you to built a futur competitor? sure not.



randomradio said:


> Won't make a difference. Indian companies will be producing the aircraft. Boeing wants to hold on to their IPR through the 100% subsidy, but they will transfer tech to all the Indian companies involved.
> 
> What we want is manufacturing facilities in India, with Indian manpower working on the jet. That's what will build the aerospace industry, not IPR. Their IPR can go to hell, their tech will be old compared to other programs like FGFA and AMCA anyway which will make it entirely irrelevant.
> 
> Tata produces the fuselage, HAL produces the engines, L&T produces the radar etc, that's what we are aiming for. Boeing plan to have their entire SH production line transferred to Indian companies while Boeing will merely be an integrator + IPR holder. Maybe not even an integrator, they will most likely at best have one or two offices in Delhi and other cities for managing the project at best.





randomradio said:


> Won't make a difference. Indian companies will be producing the aircraft. Boeing wants to hold on to their IPR through the 100% subsidy, but they will transfer tech to all the Indian companies involved.
> 
> What we want is manufacturing facilities in India, with Indian manpower working on the jet. That's what will build the aerospace industry, not IPR. Their IPR can go to hell, their tech will be old compared to other programs like FGFA and AMCA anyway which will make it entirely irrelevant.
> 
> Tata produces the fuselage, HAL produces the engines, L&T produces the radar etc, that's what we are aiming for. Boeing plan to have their entire SH production line transferred to Indian companies while Boeing will merely be an integrator + IPR holder. Maybe not even an integrator, they will most likely at best have one or two offices in Delhi and other cities for managing the project at best.


You already have something to developp your Aerospace Industry.

It has a nice name...

TEJAS (and his futur brothers).



temporary1234 said:


> As I said , second MMRCA (most probably US one) ,if procured, would be a political decision, not a financial and technical one.


It would be the only good reason.
Technically, If US give you the assembly line, it's because the bird is totally outdated....

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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> I'm not sure to understand you post.
> 
> But do you really expect US will help you to built a futur competitor? sure not.



Yes, because it's not a choice for the US. In fact, the US will be transferring their entire production line. So India will be the future supply base. It is possible that Boeing will make India the supply base for the USN also. That's huge business.



> You already have something to developp your Aerospace Industry.
> 
> It has a nice name...
> 
> TEJAS (and his futur brothers).



HAL will jealously guard it.

The only way for us to build an aerospace industry is if we pick two MRCAs, Rafale and another. This will create two competitors in the private industry.

It means India will have three major companies capable of building a fighter aircraft, HAL and two private companies.



> Technically, If US give you the assembly line, it's because the bird is totally outdated....



That's true. But it will help companies with no experience to build a jet. HAL is guaranteed not to provide any help.

Btw, the second MRCA program is guaranteed to happen. What's in question is will there be a third.


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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> Yes, because it's not a choice for the US. In fact, the US will be transferring their entire production line. So India will be the future supply base. It is possible that Boeing will make India the supply base for the USN also. That's huge business.


Wasn't Boeing which stopped doors production in India last year as subcontractor? It would be surprising they give you the key of the SH entire line, with supply for USN.



randomradio said:


> The only way for us to build an aerospace industry is if we pick two MRCAs, Rafale and another. This will create two competitors in the private industry.
> 
> It means India will have three major companies capable of building a fighter aircraft, HAL and two private companies.


3? It's one too much.
Even US today has only 2 fighters producer. As Russia.

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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> Wasn't Boeing which stopped doors production in India last year as subcontractor? It would be surprising they give you the key of the SH entire line, with supply for USN.



That was HAL. HAL's quality was bad. But both Boeing and Airbus have given contracts to many Indian companies. All Apache fuselages will be made in India by Tata for the global market.

As for USN, we won't provide them with new aircraft, I'm talking about parts for life extension programs and upgrades.



> 3? It's one too much.



HAL with LCA. Reliance with Rafale. Tata/L&T with SH/Gripen E.

Parrikar plans to have 3 or 4 fighter jet production lines. Decision for 3 have most likely been made already, LCA, Rafale and second MRCA. There might be a third MRCA also, that decision is pending. Plus there's the LSA.

The plan is to build a 200,000 strong aerospace industry in 10 years.


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## guest11

BON PLAN said:


> With the commercial power and military umbrella of USA, do you really think than if SH18 was a so impressiv machine, _*only 24 were selled on export *_?



While I'd agree with you on a lot things this is not one of them.


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## Taygibay

Very nice image of the awesome Tomcat there ^^^
Just wonderin' though, how does it relate to Bon Plan
giving the number of export SuperHornets which is
still 24 to Oz as we write?

 Tay.

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## noksss

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/india-wants-to-buy-predator-guardian-uavs-from-the-us/20160622.htm

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## BON PLAN

noksss said:


> http://www.rediff.com/news/report/india-wants-to-buy-predator-guardian-uavs-from-the-us/20160622.htm


I was thinking India needed Avenger.... May be Avenger + Predator...

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## PARIKRAMA

Talk abt how livefist is shocked that even after first pointing their mistake and Rafale addition late in the poll, finally it's Rafale onl which won the poll

And they don want to declare results now citing meek reasons...

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## Piper

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 312471
> 
> 
> View attachment 312472
> 
> 
> View attachment 312473
> 
> 
> Talk abt how livefist is shocked that even after first pointing their mistake and Rafale addition late in the poll, finally it's Rafale onl which won the poll
> 
> And they don want to declare results now citing meek reasons...



So much money being wasted by SAAB

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## Techy

Piper said:


> So much money being wasted by SAAB


Not so much money.. I am sure that a couple of thousand dollars would have done their work

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## raj76

http://www.defencenews.in/article/Indo-French-deal-for-36-Rafale-Fighter-Jets-move-forward-6197


New Delhi is in the final stages of a process that could lead to a contract for 36 Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft. Negotiations between Indian and French teams regarding the final terms of the contract are now concluded, said defence minister Manohar Parrikar during a recent visit to Bengaluru. “I should receive their report this week and the ministry will analyse it and then send it to the Government,” he said. “After the report is submitted, it may take the government four to five weeks to officially come to a conclusion as to the final terms of the contract.” Parrikar made the remarks during a recent visit to Bangalore. He indicated that the contract would be valued at approximately $7-8 billion. New Delhi will also look to acquire a singleengined and a twinengined fighter type under the Government’s ‘MakeinIndia’ initiative for manufacture in India. “We also envisage acquiring singleengined and twinengined fighter aircraft under the ‘Make in India’ programme,” he says. “Final discussions are likely to be concluded in a couple of months to decide the exact course of action, though more or less the line is decided.” Extensive negotiations have reportedly been underway between the Ministry of Defence and the air force to decide on the final requirements and iron out the financial aspects of such a proposal. The plans for production of a twinengined fighter in India could tiein with recent remarks by Dassault Aviation chief executive Eric Trappier: “At the moment we are negotiating the price for the first 36……we are already preparing the second phase of the contract, that is an additional order of some 90 aircraft but that is in the long term.” Saab has been running a highly visible campaign in India to promote the Gripen E to be built in India. Lockheed Martin has offered its F16V and Boeing has proposed the F/A18 E/F Super Hornet for manufacture in India.

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## W@rwolf

Rafale negotiations *concluded *according to Flight Global report. Talks about 36 + the other 90 jets in the 2nd phase as per Dassault CEO Trappier

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/indian-deal-for-36-rafales-moves-forward-426617/

""New Delhi is in the final stages of a process that could lead to a contract for 36 Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft.

*Negotiations between Indian and French teams regarding the final terms of the contract are now CONCLUDED, said defence minister Manohar Parrikar during a recent visit to Bengaluru.*

“_I should receive their report this week and the ministry will analyse it and then send it to the Government_,” he said. “After the report is submitted, it *may take the government four to five weeks to officially come to a conclusion* as to the final terms of the contract.”

Parrikar made the remarks during a recent visit to Bangalore. He indicated that the contract would be *valued at approximately $7-8 billion.*

New Delhi will *also look to acquire a single-engined and a twin-engined fighter* type under the Government’s ‘Make-in-India’ initiative for manufacture in India.

“_We also envisage acquiring single-engined and twin-engined fighter aircraft under the ‘Make in India’ programme_,” he says. “_Final discussions are likely to be concluded in a couple of months to decide the exact course of action, though more or less the line is decided_.”

Extensive negotiations have reportedly been underway between the Ministry of Defence and the air force to decide on the final requirements and iron out the financial aspects of such a proposal.

The plans for production of a twin-engined fighter in India could tie-in with recent remarks by Dassault Aviation chief executive Eric Trappier: “_At the moment we are negotiating the price for the first 36……we are already preparing the second phase of the contract, that is *an additional order of some 90 aircraft but that is in the long term*._”

Saab has been running a highly visible campaign in India to promote the Gripen E to be built in India. Lockheed Martin has offered its F-16V and Boeing has proposed the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet for manufacture in India.""

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## randomradio

Rafale and Gripen MIIs are practically guaranteed. Now the question is whether Parrikar will also order the SH.

Gripen MII is guaranteed because it is cheaper and better than the F-16.


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## W@rwolf

randomradio said:


> Gripen MII is guaranteed because it is cheaper and better than the F-16.



Have you considered setting up of 2nd LCA production line with help of private cos?


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## randomradio

W@rwolf said:


> Have you considered setting up of 2nd LCA production line with help of private cos?



There are two problems:
1. We are yet to see if the LCA program succeeds.
2. If production is to be expanded, HAL wants to do it.

The issue with point 2 is HAL doesn't want to give away their hold on the LCA program. In fact, they now want the govt to cancel the multiple MRCA programs and focus only on their products. They want the LCA program extended to 24 jets a year. So in case a second line is setup, it is doubtful if HAL will assist the private companies with good intentions.

Regardless of what you see here, Gripen is not seen as a threat to the LCA program.


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## Stephen Cohen

randomradio said:


> Rafale and Gripen MIIs are practically guaranteed. Now the question is whether Parrikar will also order the SH.
> 
> Gripen MII is guaranteed because it is cheaper and better than the F-16.



Grippen is not better than F 16 

Let us go for F 16 if we are going to make TWO planes 

And if we decide to make only ONE plane then it should be Rafale

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## randomradio

Stephen Cohen said:


> Grippen is not better than F 16
> 
> Let us go for F 16 if we are going to make TWO planes
> 
> And if we decide to make only ONE plane then it should be Rafale



Gripen is easily a generation ahead, both in performance and avionics. Plus Gripen is cheaper in LCC.

Plus it will increase GE's footprint in India making ToT easier for AMCA.

The decision for making Rafales has already been taken. Rafales are coming. We are talking about a second imported line, and a third.


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## zebra7

randomradio said:


> Gripen is easily a generation ahead, both in performance and avionics. Plus Gripen is cheaper in LCC.
> 
> Plus it will increase GE's footprint in India making ToT easier for AMCA.
> 
> The decision for making Rafales has already been taken. Rafales are coming. We are talking about a second imported line, and a third.



Generation is just the marketing terms. And with the Block 60 upgrade, and a working AESA radar in F-16, care to explain how it is a generation ahead in Avionics. Second is the LCC, F-16 is never lagging in this domain also

GE footprint is already high now. A fighter plane needs 2.5 engine in its life time, with 120 confirm MK-1, and IN already committed for 42 LCA MK-2, and around 90 MK-1 trainer, and MK-2 for airforce, which also wants GE-F-414 IN60, and very much possible AMCA -- Do the calculation

Yes Rafale is already and should be selected.

Let me clear one thing -- Make in India, means India, wants various global OEMs to setup plants in India, and take the advantage of pool of highly skilled engineer and technitians available in the country, and relatively cheaper labour cost, to lower down the production cost. This just not automatically makes that India would be the customer of the product and very much possible that, Make in India Gripen would be bought by Swedish Airforce. 

Just like, Gerenal Motors Ambassador car, when 100,000 cars were imported to U.K.

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> Gripen is easily a generation ahead, both in performance and avionics. Plus Gripen is cheaper in LCC.
> 
> Plus it will increase GE's footprint in India making ToT easier for AMCA.
> 
> The decision for making Rafales has already been taken. Rafales are coming. We are talking about a second imported line, and a third.


Three lines? If you choose the right two first, you will not need a third one. It will be a waste on money and energy. Do you ever have enough strong company to cope in such high technology?

With a good deal from the first two, you will have largely enough ToT to boost your aerospace industry. From that point of view Gripen E seemed a nice second choice.

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## W@rwolf

randomradio said:


> There are two problems:
> 1. We are yet to see if the LCA program succeeds.
> 2. If production is to be expanded, HAL wants to do it.
> 
> The issue with point 2 is HAL doesn't want to give away their hold on the LCA program. In fact, they now want the govt to cancel the multiple MRCA programs and focus only on their products. They want the LCA program extended to 24 jets a year. So in case a second line is setup, it is doubtful if HAL will assist the private companies with good intentions.
> 
> Regardless of what you see here, Gripen is not seen as a threat to the LCA program.




1. The LCA program is already successful. The govt is not going to stop at the 120+ plus figure, its a fact. The question is whether the govt will go for more Mk-1As or order the MK-2 (it depends on HAL to complete the later's development)
At the most we can see is SAAB co-operating with HAL for Mk-1A and MK-2 development.
Gripen is not coming to India for two reasons:
a) Will never be procured under IAFs medium fighter requirement as it has failed the GSQR
b) Under light fighter requirement, Gripen doesnt bring anything significant to the table that the Tejas Mk-2 cannot offer.​Also it will take the 3-5 years for the first fighter to be delivered. By that time the Mk-1A production would have started.

2. Ofcourse the HAL would not want to give up its monopoly. But it doesn't have the final say in the matter, its the government's decision. And the current trend shows us that the govt is willing to team up with private players for faster production and induction of platforms.
Also the pvt players wont incur losses by setting up parallel production to HAL's main line since IAF will have orders for different aircrafts stretching on for atleast the next 2 decades and they can start with the next aircraft once the previous one is completed. (*Mk-2, Rafale's MII prod line, AMCA, FGFA and I can also see a 5th gen spin off from LCA*). HAL will have its handfull with Mk-1A, Mk-2, AMCA, FGFA along with BTT-40, IJT, Dhruv, Rudra, LCH and the LUH-Ka-226 combo.
So HAL is never loosing out on revenue.


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## GURU DUTT

randomradio said:


> Gripen is easily a generation ahead, both in performance and avionics. Plus Gripen is cheaper in LCC.
> 
> Plus it will increase GE's footprint in India making ToT easier for AMCA.
> 
> The decision for making Rafales has already been taken. Rafales are coming. We are talking about a second imported line, and a third.


forget it grippen just has the biggest marketing budget than any other OEM in indian defnce market and SAAB dont have any ground breaking tech with them what either LM or Boeing or GE or BAE cant give us 

plus the fact we need at least two new MRCA to complement LCA one is rafale for sure (126 for IAF and 36 for IN)the other one is for sure a american fighter and since both LM & Boeing wanted to go alone in indian defence market under MII it could either be F16V or F/A-18 E/F but grippen forget it

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## randomradio

zebra7 said:


> Generation is just the marketing terms. And with the Block 60 upgrade, and a working AESA radar in F-16, care to explain how it is a generation ahead in Avionics. Second is the LCC, F-16 is never lagging in this domain also



Sensor fusion. What defines a 5th gen aircraft is sensor fusion. Without it you can't have electronic stealth, like Rafale does. Even the F-35 has limited stealth from electronics.



> Let me clear one thing -- Make in India, means India, wants various global OEMs to setup plants in India, and take the advantage of pool of highly skilled engineer and technitians available in the country, and relatively cheaper labour cost, to lower down the production cost. This just not automatically makes that India would be the customer of the product and very much possible that, Make in India Gripen would be bought by Swedish Airforce.



No, for MII to be successful, the IAF has to purchase some. Right now, the numbers are at 90 jets. That's the minimum required by the IAF to buy and sustain an aircraft.

Exports will come later.



BON PLAN said:


> Do you ever have enough strong company to cope in such high technology?



Yes.



> With a good deal from the first two, you will have largely enough ToT to boost your aerospace industry. From that point of view Gripen E seemed a nice second choice.



Out of all three jets, only Gripen E has sensor fusion.



W@rwolf said:


> 1. The LCA program is already successful. The govt is not going to stop at the 120+ plus figure, its a fact. The question is whether the govt will go for more Mk-1As or order the MK-2 (it depends on HAL to complete the later's development)
> At the most we can see is SAAB co-operating with HAL for Mk-1A and MK-2 development.
> Gripen is not coming to India for two reasons:
> a) Will never be procured under IAFs medium fighter requirement as it has failed the GSQR
> b) Under light fighter requirement, Gripen doesnt bring anything significant to the table that the Tejas Mk-2 cannot offer.​Also it will take the 3-5 years for the first fighter to be delivered. By that time the Mk-1A production would have started.
> 
> 2. Ofcourse the HAL would not want to give up its monopoly. But it doesn't have the final say in the matter, its the government's decision. And the current trend shows us that the govt is willing to team up with private players for faster production and induction of platforms.
> Also the pvt players wont incur losses by setting up parallel production to HAL's main line since IAF will have orders for different aircrafts stretching on for atleast the next 2 decades and they can start with the next aircraft once the previous one is completed. (*Mk-2, Rafale's MII prod line, AMCA, FGFA and I can also see a 5th gen spin off from LCA*). HAL will have its handfull with Mk-1A, Mk-2, AMCA, FGFA along with BTT-40, IJT, Dhruv, Rudra, LCH and the LUH-Ka-226 combo.
> So HAL is never loosing out on revenue.



You underestimate HAL. They have bureaucrats in their pockets. You can at least count out all HAL projects for the private sector, that's not happening beyond subcontracting related work. Either 16 LCAs will be made a year, or 24. No private company will get its hands on the LCA because none of them have any experience to handle the project alone.

Gripen is going to cooperate with ADA on LCA.



> b) Under light fighter requirement, Gripen doesnt bring anything significant to the table that the Tejas Mk-2 cannot offer.



That's not entirely correct. First, we do not know how good the Mk2 is. Second, there is no aircraft in the world today that's more maneuverable at subsonic speeds than the Gripen. And Saab is offering its new GaN radar to the IAF with Gripen E. And Mk2 is too far away, 2024+.

After 2027, IAF won't be inducting any of these aircraft. At best only IN will be inducting Mk2, if they are still interested by then.

Anyway, Parrikar has already made the decision of manufacturing a second twin engine jet and a single engine fighter. The only twin engine jet around is the SH. And there are two options for single engine, Gripen E and F-16IN. So the Gripen E is obviously the better choice of the two. Gripen E is a new generation jet.



GURU DUTT said:


> forget it grippen just has the biggest marketing budget than any other OEM in indian defnce market and SAAB dont have any ground breaking tech with them what either LM or Boeing or GE or BAE cant give us
> 
> plus the fact we need at least two new MRCA to complement LCA one is rafale for sure (126 for IAF and 36 for IN)the other one is for sure a american fighter and since both LM & Boeing wanted to go alone in indian defence market under MII it could either be F16V or F/A-18 E/F but grippen forget it



We could end up with a third MRCA program, that's not been counted out. I had brought up the 3rd line months ago, I think March or April.

Rafale, SH and Gripen may be manufactured in India.

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## GURU DUTT

randomradio said:


> We could end up with a third MRCA program, that's not been counted out. I had brought up the 3rd line months ago, I think March or April.
> 
> Rafale, SH and Gripen may be manufactured in India.


Rafale for sure and SH maybe but just forget Grippen

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## [Bregs]

arey bhaiya complete rafale deal first that too made in france, make in india baad main dekh lena

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## randomradio

GURU DUTT said:


> Rafale for sure and SH maybe but just forget Grippen



Bro, I am not giving my opinion. I am telling what's happening in South Block.

It is most likely that India and Sweden have signed an agreement for production of Gripens in Singapore on June 3rd. We don't know how serious the agreement is.


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## W@rwolf

randomradio said:


> You underestimate HAL. They have bureaucrats in their pockets. You can at least count out all HAL projects for the private sector, that's not happening beyond subcontracting related work. Either 16 LCAs will be made a year, or 24. No private company will get its hands on the LCA because none of them have any experience to handle the project alone.
> 
> Gripen is going to cooperate with ADA on LCA.





randomradio said:


> That's not entirely correct. First, we do not know how good the Mk2 is. Second, there is no aircraft in the world today that's more maneuverable at subsonic speeds than the Gripen. And Saab is offering its new GaN radar to the IAF with Gripen E. And Mk2 is too far away, 2024+.
> 
> After 2027, IAF won't be inducting any of these aircraft. At best only IN will be inducting Mk2, if they are still interested by then.
> 
> Anyway, Parrikar has already made the decision of manufacturing a second twin engine jet and a single engine fighter. The only twin engine jet around is the SH. And there are two options for single engine, Gripen E and F-16IN. So the Gripen E is obviously the better choice of the two. Gripen E is a new generation jet.





True, they're going to fight tooth and nail to retain their monopoly. I sincerely hope DM takes a strong decision to involve pvt playes in a major way in the Tejas program starting with major structure assembly and gradually to complete airframe assembly by the time Mk-2 is ready for series production. MoD should make sure HAL co-operates.

The second twin-engined fighter is none other than Rafale. As indicated by Dassaul CEO Trappier himself.
“At the moment we are negotiating the price for the first 36……we are already preparing the second phase of the contract, that is an additional order of some 90 aircraft but that is in the long term.”
This deal involve MII, complete ToT as well as collaboration in some strategic projects.
HAL is sure as hell not getting this production line. So again onus falls on the pvt players.

SH, F-16V or Gripen are not coming. Period.
Words of DM himself indicate that he has already finalized the 'single engined fighter' to be produced here.
*“We also envisage acquiring single-engined and twin-engined fighter aircraft under the ‘Make in India’ programme,” he says. “Final discussions are likely to be concluded in a couple of months to decide the exact course of action, though more or less the line is decided.”*
(same Flight Global article)

Then, if that fighter was indeed Gripen, why are they lobbying so hard? Boeing has quietly given up its offer while LM still thinks it has a chance with the F-16/F-35.

As for Mk-2, it has everything what IAF wants. There's no question of how 'good' it'll be. IAF is already impressed with the performance of Mk-1. Only thing to worry about is the timeline. Im sure it'll match Gripen in terms or maneuverabilty in Mk-2 avatar (albeit not in low speeds) but its the last line of defense, so not that much of a concern. Also, I think the Rafale can match or ever better Gripen at low speed turns.

We're already getting GaN tech with Rafale, why go for a whole new jet just for something we're already getting? Also Selex comes under Finameccanicca and can open another can of worms for MoD. Not to mention the hazzle of negotiating with each sub-contractor involved with Gripen (SAAB is only the integrator of those sub-systems)

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## randomradio

W@rwolf said:


> True, they're going to fight tooth and nail to retain their monopoly. I sincerely hope DM takes a strong decision to involve pvt playes in a major way in the Tejas program starting with major structure assembly and gradually to complete airframe assembly by the time Mk-2 is ready for series production. MoD should make sure HAL co-operates.



The govt wants to privatize HAL.



> SH, F-16V or Gripen are not coming. Period.
> 
> Words of DM himself indicate that he has already finalized the 'single engined fighter' to be produced here.
> *“We also envisage acquiring single-engined and twin-engined fighter aircraft under the ‘Make in India’ programme,” he says. “Final discussions are likely to be concluded in a couple of months to decide the exact course of action, though more or less the line is decided.”*
> (same Flight Global article)



At least one of them is 100% guaranteed.



> Then, if that fighter was indeed Gripen, why are they lobbying so hard? Boeing has quietly given up its offer while LM still thinks it has a chance with the F-16/F-35.



They need to keep lobbying because nothing is a done deal. In fact everything depends on the costs and ToT.



> As for Mk-2, it has everything what IAF wants.



The issue is it is possible that AMCA will be made around the same time as the Mk2. ADA is willing to finish development, but it seems an accelerated development of AMCA will kill LCA Mk2.

TDs should take off in 2019 and 2020. First prototype in 2021 and at least 4 would be flying by 2023. So AMCA should hit production by 2027. So the IAF and IN may decide to invest in the AMCA by then.



> Im sure it'll match Gripen in terms or maneuverabilty



No chance.







LCA is between the F-16 and Su-35.



> Also, I think the Rafale can match or ever better Gripen at low speed turns.



Only with TVC.



> We're already getting GaN tech with Rafale,



We are not. GaN is coming in only for Spectra, not for the radar. The GaN program for the Rafale is post 2021. And it's unclear if we are going to get that in our production versions. Maybe as options in the future.



> Also Selex comes under Finameccanicca and can open another can of worms for MoD.



Saab has its own electronics company. They are offering a Saab designed and made GaN radar. THey can offer IRST and all other electronics as well. Plus, they will all be similar to what's going on LCA Mk2 and N-LCA.

As of today, IAF has confirmed that they won't be buying the Mk2. They will go for new upgrades on Mk1A itself.



> Not to mention the hazzle of negotiating with each sub-contractor involved with Gripen (SAAB is only the integrator of those sub-systems)



The subcontractors will be Indian, not Swedish.


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## zebra7

Speculation Speculation and Speculation, so let me do some speculation too.




randomradio said:


> Sensor fusion. What defines a 5th gen aircraft is sensor fusion. Without it you can't have electronic stealth, like Rafale does. Even the F-35 has limited stealth from electronics.



LOLZ -- A fighter plane needed to replace the ageing Mig -21 and Mig-27, and IAF looking for the high end fighter plane with Sensor fusion, with Imported and costly Weaponary like Meteros, IRIS-T for the role of Interceptor, and tactical close are support. A case study -- and USAF are idiots to keep flying Old F-16 A/B, when they should have inducted 1000 F-22 Raptor. The IAF don't need low end fighter plane to fill the numbers. What is the cost of the F-16 block 52 for the PAF -- 85 Million, and for Gripen 75 Million, speculated by you. Now add the Infrastructure, and the cost of the Weapons, or the cost charged by OEM to integrate our Russian Weapon inventory.



randomradio said:


> No, for MII to be successful, the IAF has to purchase some. Right now, the numbers are at 90 jets. That's the minimum required by the IAF to buy and sustain an aircraft.



And the 90 number of jet is the product of the Speculation, or it has any name.



randomradio said:


> Exports will come later.



So, you want India to market the product, or the OEM will market themself, and India would only be the production, spares and MRO facility destination.



randomradio said:


> It is most likely that India and Sweden have signed an agreement for production of Gripens in Singapore on June 3rd. We don't know how serious the agreement is.



And this thought is most likely to be the Speculation of you or some source.



randomradio said:


> Saab has its own electronics company. They are offering a Saab designed and made GaN radar. THey can offer IRST and all other electronics as well. Plus, they will all be similar to what's going on LCA Mk2 and N-LCA.



Speculation no. XX

Right now we have an AESA radar EL/M-2052 readily available for Jaguar, Mk-1 and Naval MK-2, and the Super Duper GaN Radar of SAAB's prototype will be ready only after 5 years. There is no IRST solution offered by SAAB, they themself going for the Skyward IRST.



randomradio said:


> As of today, IAF has confirmed that they won't be buying the Mk2. They will go for new upgrades on Mk1A itself.


 
Provide me the source, or any statement that IAF is not interested in LCA MK-2. The IAF chief statement was that right now they are only looking at MK-1. And there is no MK-1A Bullshit again a speculated nomeclature by one media person, and rest repeating them, its only MK-1, and IAF had made it clear, and specially you should made it clear that its only MK-1, and IAF would keep on inducting whatever upgrades it will get in the process and leave the nomenclature to IAF.




randomradio said:


> No chance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LCA is between the F-16 and Su-35.



LOLZ -- What a great and Impressive chart.

Pls post also the source who have created this chart -- let me guess is it chart from the Gripen marketing broucher.

But what is not mentioned here is the Instantaneous turn rate and the sustained turn rate at what load, altitude, and speed, temperature, Air density. OOPS so many parameter. No OEM gives its flight data in public domain, but the person was able to Plot the graph of so many fighter planes, and that too in same condition.



randomradio said:


> The issue is it is possible that AMCA will be made around the same time as the Mk2. ADA is willing to finish development, but it seems an accelerated development of AMCA will kill LCA Mk2.
> 
> TDs should take off in 2019 and 2020. First prototype in 2021 and at least 4 would be flying by 2023. So AMCA should hit production by 2027. So the IAF and IN may decide to invest in the AMCA by then.



B.S Speculation. For any 5th Generation fighter plane development, the cost of the development, would easily cross the two digit figures in Billions and atleast 15 years. With Rafale, MKI deep upgradation, and FGFA projects, there would be no money left to be poured on AMCA at the moment, and India should and will concentrate on the Rafale, and Super Sukhoi Upgrade. The FGFA prototype could only be ready by 2020, and would be ready by 2026-27. 

Right now, only feasibility and tecnical study is going on AMCA and should only be ready by 2035. And for MK-2 both IAF and IN development have been started, and decision is to be made, whether to go for the TVC or the Canard solution for the Supermaneurability, and most probably ADA will go for TVC solution.

The technologies required for the AMCA would be developed on MK-2, and this is the right way, because *Development is the evolutionaly Process and not the Revolutionary Event.*



randomradio said:


> At least one of them is 100% guaranteed.



Neither F-16V nor Gripen would enter Indian Service (So called Speculated 90 number Minimum), as both have been rejected by IAF for good because IAF is too Difficult Customer for both of them.



randomradio said:


> The govt wants to privatize HAL.



Speculation number XXX. Give your source or statement.

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## randomradio

zebra7 said:


> LOLZ -- A fighter plane needed to replace the ageing Mig -21 and Mig-27, and IAF looking for the high end fighter plane with Sensor fusion, with Imported and costly Weaponary like Meteros, IRIS-T for the role of Interceptor, and tactical close are support. A case study -- and USAF are idiots to keep flying Old F-16 A/B, when they should have inducted 1000 F-22 Raptor. The IAF don't need low end fighter plane to fill the numbers. What is the cost of the F-16 block 52 for the PAF -- 85 Million, and for Gripen 75 Million, speculated by you. Now add the Infrastructure, and the cost of the Weapons, or the cost charged by OEM to integrate our Russian Weapon inventory.



The USAF will buy 1000 F-22s if allowed, it's not their decision to make.



> And the 90 number of jet is the product of the Speculation, or it has any name.



It's a real number. All MII programs will be for 90 jets initially.



> the OEM will market themself, and India would only be the production, spares and MRO facility destination.



Yes.



> And this thought is most likely to be the Speculation of you or some source.



It's not speculation. Some sort of agreement was signed with Sweden at the Shangri La Dialogue.



> Speculation no. XX



Public knowledge. Google: GaN radar Saab. They have a company called Saab Microwave Systems which is developing the radar.



> Right now we have an AESA radar EL/M-2052 readily available for Jaguar, Mk-1 and Naval MK-2, and the Super Duper GaN Radar of SAAB's prototype will be ready only after 5 years. There is no IRST solution offered by SAAB, they themself going for the Skyward IRST.



Saab says the radar's ready.



> Provide me the source, or any statement that IAF is not interested in LCA MK-2. The IAF chief statement was that right now they are only looking at MK-1. And there is no MK-1A Bullshit again a speculated nomeclature by one media person, and rest repeating them, its only MK-1, and IAF had made it clear, and specially you should made it clear that its only MK-1, and IAF would keep on inducting whatever upgrades it will get in the process and leave the nomenclature to IAF.



The IAF chief also clarified that IAF doesn't want the Mk2.

http://www.stratpost.com/navy-to-review-lca


> And when Ajay Banerjee of _The Tribune_ asked: So you are not interested in the Mk2, is it?
> 
> AS OF NOW WE ARE NOT.



It wasn't cryptic. As of now, only the navy is interested in Mk2.



> What a great and Impressive chart.
> 
> Pls post also the source who have created this chart -- let me guess is it chart from the Gripen marketing broucher.



It came from a submission to the Australian Parliament. Except for the F-22 and maybe the F-35, the turn rates for all other jets are pretty much accurate.



> But what is not mentioned here is the Instantaneous turn rate and the sustained turn rate at what load, altitude, and speed, temperature, Air density. OOPS so many parameter. No OEM gives its flight data in public domain, but the person was able to Plot the graph of so many fighter planes, and that too in same condition.



It's the highest possible turn rates achieved on the jets.



> B.S Speculation. For any 5th Generation fighter plane development, the cost of the development, would easily cross the two digit figures in Billions and atleast 15 years. With Rafale, MKI deep upgradation, and FGFA projects, there would be no money left to be poured on AMCA at the moment, and India should and will concentrate on the Rafale, and Super Sukhoi Upgrade. The FGFA prototype could only be ready by 2020, and would be ready by 2026-27.



AMCA is a very high priority project. It should get clearance this year.



> Right now, only feasibility and tecnical study is going on AMCA and should only be ready by 2035.



Design stage is complete. They are waiting for FSED clearance. They will start building the first TD next year.



> And for MK-2 both IAF and IN development have been started, and decision is to be made, whether to go for the TVC or the Canard solution for the Supermaneurability, and most probably ADA will go for TVC solution.



N-LCA will look different, but no canards.



> Speculation number XXX. Give your source or statement.



Very old news.
http://www.news18.com/news/business...ss-privatisation-of-psus-expected-699952.html


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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> Out of all three jets, only Gripen E has sensor fusion.


Gripen E only exists as a prototyp. I'm afraid its weapon system not mature yet. Specially with a totally new radar.
Gripen C/D is not known to have an impressiv sensor fusion. See Swiss tests report.
Rafale has it. Yesterday, now and tomorrow.



randomradio said:


>


Gripen best in instantaneous turn rate? Why not.
But in Sustained turn rate? Its T/W ratio isn't a little bit short to do so?

Do you know In what conditions are made all these perf? how many fuel? how many weaponery ? speed? altitude?

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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> Gripen E only exists as a prototyp. I'm afraid its weapon system not mature yet. Specially with a totally new radar.
> Gripen C/D is not known to have an impressiv sensor fusion. See Swiss tests report.
> Rafale has is. yesterday, now and tomorrow.



Okay, let me get this out of the way first. Rafale is coming. All other jets are fighting for second place. So, Rafale's already won.

And unlike Gripen C, Gripen E does have full sensor fusion, like Rafale. But you are right about it being a prototype. Rafale is still many years ahead and will continue to hold that avanatge. But it's still better than the ASH and F-16IN which don't even exist.

Unlike SH and F-16, the Gripen program will be directly related to the LCA program as a whole. So it has more incentive to be part of IAF.

And before anybody jumps at this, I will get this out of the way too. Gripen will not interfere with the LCA program.



BON PLAN said:


> Do you know In what conditions are made all these perf? how many fuel? how many weaponery ? speed? altitude?



I don't know how these were calculated. I'm searching for the submission.

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## Ankit Kumar

I really don't know how some people assume that Gripens are 80-90 million USD a piece ... If I remember it was 2012 and Switzerland was offered a price of 3.5 Billion USD for 22 aircrafts , not including service and upkeep contracts and also not including other lifetime costs. And also to mention it was C/D version. 160Million USD per aircraft ....

If I include all costs like that is happening in that of Rafale case , Gripen E/F will not cost below 220 million USD per air craft.

If its less than 120 million USD or less including airframe, training, weapons and infrastructure and local manufacturing with TOT as SAAB calls it, I am all for Gripen E/F.

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> Sensor fusion. What defines a 5th gen aircraft is sensor fusion. Without it you can't have electronic stealth, like Rafale does. Even the F-35 has limited stealth from electronics.


5th gen is related to supercruiser and stealth. (and maybe sensor fusion)
I see no link between sensor fusion and stealth.


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## topgun047

Anyone know where do Tejas and F-16 stand on the graph posted by @randomradio ?


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## BON PLAN

Ankit Kumar said:


> I really don't know how some people assume that Gripens are 80-90 million USD a piece ... If I remember it was 2012 and Switzerland was offered a price of 3.5 Billion USD for 22 aircrafts , not including service and upkeep contracts and also not including other lifetime costs. And also to mention it was C/D version. 160Million USD per aircraft ....
> 
> If I include all costs like that is happening in that of Rafale case , Gripen E/F will not cost below 220 million USD per air craft.
> 
> If its less than 120 million USD or less including airframe, training, weapons and infrastructure and local manufacturing with TOT as SAAB calls it, I am all for Gripen E/F.


About price, you can find all kind of datas :
"Dry" price : plane alone, without spare, training, weapon, support... Same price as when you buy a new car : The tank is even not filled and there's just some oïl in the motor. No tires in spare....
"complete" price : with support (how many year of support???), spares, test bench, training, airfield base adaptation .... some weapon? ALL DEPEND HOW DEEPER YOU WANT THIS SUPPORT.



topgun047 said:


> Anyone know where do Tejas and F-16 stand on the graph posted by @randomradio ?


F16 is on the slide.
And he said Tejas is between F16 and SU35.

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## GURU DUTT

BON PLAN said:


> About price, you can find all kind of datas :
> "Dry" price : plane alone, without spare, training, weapon, support... Same price as when you buy a new car : The tank is even not filled and there's just some oïl in the motor. No tires in spare....
> "complete" price : with support (how many year of support???), spares, test bench, training, airfield base adaptation .... some weapon? ALL DEPEND HOW DEEPER YOU WANT THIS SUPPORT.
> 
> 
> F16 is on the slide.
> And he said Tejas is between F16 and SU35.


so can you sir or any one tell me what is fly away cost and overall cost (weapons, training and maintainence and spares for 10 years) fo rafale , Grippen E , F16V and Sh-18-E/F


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## randomradio

Ankit Kumar said:


> I really don't know how some people assume that Gripens are 80-90 million USD a piece ... If I remember it was 2012 and Switzerland was offered a price of 3.5 Billion USD for 22 aircrafts , not including service and upkeep contracts and also not including other lifetime costs. And also to mention it was C/D version. 160Million USD per aircraft ....
> 
> If I include all costs like that is happening in that of Rafale case , Gripen E/F will not cost below 220 million USD per air craft.
> 
> If its less than 120 million USD or less including airframe, training, weapons and infrastructure and local manufacturing with TOT as SAAB calls it, I am all for Gripen E/F.



Nobody knows the unit cost of a Gripen E, but the actual contract costs are significantly lower than Rafale's. At least by half.

If you want proof, just look at the Brazil deal. The Gripens are coming in for about $150M with customization, ToT, 170% offsets, industrial production, weapons, co-development etc. Notice 170% offsets.

If you buy the Gripen without all the above, then it could easily come below $120M, with training, base infrastructure, weapons, spares/maintenance etc.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

BON PLAN said:


> 5th gen is related to supercruiser and stealth. (and maybe sensor fusion)
> I see no link between sensor fusion and stealth.


For "active cancellation" you need to locate the emitter.

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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> 5th gen is related to supercruiser and stealth. (and maybe sensor fusion)
> I see no link between sensor fusion and stealth.



Bro, stealth is entirely related to sensor fusion. Why do you think the only two other aircraft apart from Rafale that claim stealth are the F-22 and F-35?

Today, only Rafale, F-22 and F-35 have sensor fusion from what we know. And Gripen's coming up next.



topgun047 said:


> Anyone know where do Tejas and F-16 stand on the graph posted by @randomradio ?





BON PLAN said:


> And he said Tejas is between F16 and SU35.



LCA Mk1: Sustained = 17-18 deg/s
Instantaneous = 28-30 deg/s

Mk1A, I don't know yet.


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## Ankit Kumar

BON PLAN said:


> About price, you can find all kind of datas :
> "Dry" price : plane alone, without spare, training, weapon, support... Same price as when you buy a new car : The tank is even not filled and there's just some oïl in the motor. No tires in spare....
> "complete" price : with support (how many year of support???), spares, test bench, training, airfield base adaptation .... some weapon? ALL DEPEND HOW DEEPER YOU WANT THIS SUPPORT.
> 
> 
> F16 is on the slide.
> And he said Tejas is between F16 and SU35.



The 3.5 billion USD includes 22 airframes, training of personnel , setting up of necessary infra at swiss bases and armaments. 

Those don't include service and upkeep contracts and other lifetime costs.



randomradio said:


> Nobody knows the unit cost of a Gripen E, but the actual contract costs are significantly lower than Rafale's. At least by half.
> 
> If you want proof, just look at the Brazil deal. The Gripens are coming in for about $150M with customization, ToT, 170% offsets, industrial production, weapons, co-development etc. Notice 170% offsets.
> 
> If you buy the Gripen without all the above, then it could easily come below $120M, with training, base infrastructure, weapons, spares/maintenance etc.



I am quoting 3.1 Billion francs for 22 airframes of Gripen C/D as quoted in the swiss during the referendum. 

That's not some vague figures. 

As for the Brazilian contract , the cost did escalate when SAAB accommodates Brazilian demands. Now you know the demands and the increase in price too. 

And again , 150 million USD , I get Gripen E/F with Israel AESA ( or any other , but not Italian ) , with all its desired armaments in Indian service , with full production rights ( means right to build everything in India), it covers the training and setting up of bases costs , I am ok.

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## randomradio

Ankit Kumar said:


> As for the Brazilian contract , the cost did escalate when SAAB accommodates Brazilian demands. Now you know the demands and the increase in price too.



The increase in price was about $1B for customization.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...eper-cooperation-47b-gripen-ng-deal/74415116/

The deal included a maintenance contract until 2050. Has $9B in offsets.



> And again , 150 million USD , I get Gripen E/F with Israel AESA ( or any other , but not Italian ) , with all its desired armaments in Indian service , with full production rights ( means right to build everything in India), it covers the training and setting up of bases costs , I am ok.



Bro, have you even bothered to read the last few posts? I have already explained that Saab can replace all the Italian systems. They have their own GaN radar.

150 million will cover all of the above and more. Brazil got a better deal, including joint development of a two seater.

Plus, Brazil contract is a loan, ours will be direct cash.


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## Ankit Kumar

randomradio said:


> The increase in price was about $1B for customization.
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...eper-cooperation-47b-gripen-ng-deal/74415116/
> 
> The deal included a maintenance contract until 2050. Has $9B in offsets.
> 
> 
> 
> Bro, have you even bothered to read the last few posts? I have already explained that Saab can replace all the Italian systems. They have their own GaN radar.
> 
> 150 million will cover all of the above and more. Brazil got a better deal, including joint development of a two seater.
> 
> Plus, Brazil contract is a loan, ours will be direct cash.



As I say, if its even below 180 million USD, I am for all Gripen .... 

And if single engine is what IAF wants, Gripen is better than the American options .. but if its due to cash... there is a other silent source too. 

Personally , if Rafale does happen, the way we see or think it will, there will not be a 3rd kind of aircraft. Maybe follow on Flankers ....


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## randomradio

Ankit Kumar said:


> As I say, if its even below 180 million USD, I am for all Gripen ....



Guaranteed to be less than that. The Swiss deal was for $150M each. The Brazilian deal came at $130M and a huge compensation package.



> And if single engine is what IAF wants, Gripen is better than the American options .. but if its due to cash... there is a other silent source too.



The American fighters are quite backward. Very old airframes, old avionics... At best we can order the SH because it has other advantages like payload and bigger concentration of avionics. The F-16 is entirely pointless. IMHO, they shouldn't buy either.

Parrikar is planning to buy 90 jets each for MII. That's actually easily manageable. The expectation is the other will be considerably cheaper than Rafale, like 30-40% less.

I actually believe we will only build Rafale and Gripen in India if only capability is a concern. An American fighter over these two will be a purely political decision. But the uncertainty is Parrikar may opt for the F-16. That way he can take care of IAF's requirement for a single engine fighter and an American fighter. That's why nothing can be ruled out.


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## W@rwolf

I still don't understand why you're fighting for a fighter that's never coming to IAF, there's no indication whatsoever about any kinds of talks or deals with SAAB for Gripen other than their desperate attempts at lauding Gripen at every corner to sway the Indian public.
As i've already explained before, Gripens are *NOT* coming under MMRCA requirements nor as light fighter requirements as its already reserved for Tejas and its iterations.



randomradio said:


> At least one of them is 100% guaranteed.



Guaranteed? On whose authority? 



randomradio said:


> They need to keep lobbying because nothing is a done deal. In fact everything depends on the costs and ToT.



That goes against the whole logic of lobbying! DM's statement clearly states that the line is *'more or less' confirmed*. Then why does SAAB keep on vying for public appreciation? If they were indeed in talks with MoD, all they would have to do is convince the negotiation committee, not the public. 



randomradio said:


> The issue is it is possible that AMCA will be made around the same time as the Mk2. ADA is willing to finish development, but it seems an accelerated development of AMCA will kill LCA Mk2.
> 
> TDs should take off in 2019 and 2020. First prototype in 2021 and at least 4 would be flying by 2023. So AMCA should hit production by 2027. So the IAF and IN may decide to invest in the AMCA by then.



You do realize both are different classes don't you? Why would AMCA kill MK2 when both of them have different roles to fullfil in the force? Its Gripen that will kill MK2 is inducted. And if you mean funds, the Mk2 is going to cost just a fraction of Gripen for its entire lifetime.



randomradio said:


> No chance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LCA is between the F-16 and Su-35.



That's BS. Completely inaccurate and doesn't give any indications on what parameters these figures were calculated as pointed out by other members too. Gripen is good, but not at the top of the chain.



randomradio said:


> Only with TVC.



No. Rafale has a higher TWR and low speed handling to out maneuver Gripens at low speed and altitude. And you're contradicting yourselves. If TVC was all that was needed why is Su-35 and Raptor behind Gripen in the chart you provided above?



randomradio said:


> We are not. GaN is coming in only for Spectra, not for the radar. The GaN program for the Rafale is post 2021. And it's unclear if we are going to get that in our production versions. Maybe as options in the future.



We're negotiating for the *F3R* version which will have the upgrades under DEDIRA and INCAS progrms slate to be operational by* 2018*. GaN will be integrated into SPECTA and RBE2 as well.



randomradio said:


> Saab has its own electronics company. They are offering a Saab designed and made GaN radar. THey can offer IRST and all other electronics as well. Plus, they will all be similar to what's going on LCA Mk2 and N-LCA.
> 
> As of today, IAF has confirmed that they won't be buying the Mk2. They will go for new upgrades on Mk1A itself.



SAAB may have its own project, but i dont think it'll be at par with RBE2 or even the new Raven. Why do you want similar when you can get the same thing saving money on inventory and spares. Hence my comments earlier that it wont bring anything new to the table that MK2 wont already have.
Also IAF never said it will never buy Mk2. IAF said and i quote "*FOR NOW"*.



randomradio said:


> The subcontractors will be Indian, not Swedish.



Uhh..no. The assembly might be done by Indian sub contractors. But for tech transfers and contracts, MoD will have to negotiate with each sub contractor of Gripen separately and SAAB isnt the sole owner of the tech on it.



randomradio said:


> And before anybody jumps at this, I will get this out of the way too. Gripen will not interfere with the LCA program.



Would you mind elaborating? Im sure everyone will be interested to know why procuring another fighter in they same class as Tejas wont kill off its subsequent development.

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## randomradio

W@rwolf said:


> Guaranteed? On whose authority?



Parrikar.



> That goes against the whole logic of lobbying! DM's statement clearly states that the line is *'more or less' confirmed*. Then why does SAAB keep on vying for public appreciation? If they were indeed in talks with MoD, all they would have to do is convince the negotiation committee, not the public.



The lobbying will continue until contract negotiations start. Each company has its own method.

They recently lost a deal because of public opinion.



> You do realize both are different classes don't you? Why would AMCA kill MK2 when both of them have different roles to fullfil in the force?



The problem is not role, it is priority. ADA is prioritizing the AMCA.



> Its Gripen that will kill MK2 is inducted. And if you mean funds, the Mk2 is going to cost just a fraction of Gripen for its entire lifetime.



Mk2 won't be inducted. We are yet to see if the navy will also induct N-LCA Mk2. At least, for now, the IAF has said no.



> No. Rafale has a higher TWR and low speed handling to out maneuver Gripens at low speed and altitude. And you're contradicting yourselves. If TVC was all that was needed why is Su-35 and Raptor behind Gripen in the chart you provided above?



Those numbers are without TVC.



> We're negotiating for the *F3R* version which will have the upgrades under DEDIRA and INCAS progrms slate to be operational by* 2018*. GaN will be integrated into SPECTA and RBE2 as well.



GaN for RBE-2 is post-2021. It will be a conformal array, they are going to take the radar out of the noise and apply it to the fuselage.



> SAAB may have its own project, but i dont think it'll be at par with RBE2 or even the new Raven.



GaN will push it past the other radars.



> Uhh..no. The assembly might be done by Indian sub contractors. But for tech transfers and contracts, MoD will have to negotiate with each sub contractor of Gripen separately and SAAB isnt the sole owner of the tech on it.



What? Where did you get that? No. Saab, as do other companies, come as a group for negotiations. All stakeholders are present during negotiations.



W@rwolf said:


> Would you mind elaborating? Im sure everyone will be interested to know why procuring another fighter in they same class as Tejas wont kill off its subsequent development.



It is impossible to kill Tejas's development because IAF has already made commitments to buy 120. In comparison, all other contracts are still vapourware today, even Rafale.

The navy has shown interest in 45, for now. And Saab is being roped in to complete the development of AF Mk2 and N-Mk2. The AF Mk2 is to be exported. And the tech being developed in the Mk2 program will see its cousins on the AMCA. So it's a tech roadmap for the ADA.

The IAF will absorb the tech being developed in the Mk2 program in the Mk1A also. So the Mk1A will see faster absorption of tech compared to other older imported aircraft.


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## W@rwolf

randomradio said:


> Parrikar.



Show me quote where he declares the name of any of those three jets as the finalist for the 2nd production line.



randomradio said:


> The lobbying will continue until contract negotiations start. Each company has its own method.
> 
> They recently lost a deal because of public opinion.



Exactly! the lobbying will stop *IF* they are invited for negotiations. Parrikar has already said the jet has been *'more or less'* finalized (i feel like i'm going in circles here!) that means talks have already begun. Put two and two together.



randomradio said:


> The problem is not role, it is priority. ADA is prioritizing the AMCA.



Are you saying that ADA is incapable of pursuing two or more programs at once? Do you know how many they have going on right now? And again if its funds that you're talking about im sure the Govt knows whats best.



randomradio said:


> Mk2 won't be inducted. We are yet to see if the navy will also induct N-LCA Mk2. At least, for now, the IAF has said no.



Are you just being stubborn? Navy has already expressed commitment to induct N-LCA and is solely funding the project without IAF. The reason why IAF said that is because the cannot wait any longer due to SQN shortfall. Hence decided to go for Mk-1A with compromises to stop the slide in aircraft numbers. They themselves have said that there's a need for 300+ light fighter once the MiG-21 are completely retired. Mk-2 is coming buddy, whether you like it or not.



randomradio said:


> Those numbers are without TVC.



How stupid must the person have been to make such a comparison without even considering the aircraft's true potential.
In an earlier comment to someone you said the chart represented the aircraft's maximum capability w.r.t. turns, and yet they never considered Su-35 most critical feature for maneuverability?



randomradio said:


> GaN for RBE-2 is post-2021. It will be a conformal array, they are going to take the radar out of the noise and apply it to the fuselage.



Sorry, but the testbed is already flying with GaN modules. Aim is 2018 and not 2021. (dunno where your're getting these numbers from) Im sure @Picdelamirand-oil or @BON PLAN can share more info on the subject.
Conformal array is part of 'smart-skin' programs to improve the SPECTRA's situational awareness. The radar array is a completely different system. (Take the radar out of the nose and apply it to the fuselage?? Really?)



randomradio said:


> GaN will push it past the other radars.



And the other's will be sitting idle. Im sure the Thales and Selex (in this situation) with much more experience in radar designing can do a better job than the newcomer.



randomradio said:


> What? Where did you get that? No. Saab, as do other companies, come as a group for negotiations. All stakeholders are present during negotiations.



SAAB is nothing but an integrator, doesn't own complete rights to the subsystems. Hence separate contracts must be drawn up for each stakeholder in the Gripen program.



randomradio said:


> It is impossible to kill Tejas's development because IAF has already made commitments to buy 120. In comparison, all other contracts are still vapourware today, even Rafale.
> 
> The navy has shown interest in 45, for now. And Saab is being roped in to complete the development of AF Mk2 and N-Mk2. The AF Mk2 is to be exported. And the tech being developed in the Mk2 program will see its cousins on the AMCA. So it's a tech roadmap for the ADA.
> 
> The IAF will absorb the tech being developed in the Mk2 program in the Mk1A also. So the Mk1A will see faster absorption of tech compared to other older imported aircraft.



And yet you said AMCA will kill Mk-2 (you're self-contradicting a lot of statements)
Rafale negotiations are complete buddy, not "vapour" anymore.
HAL had issued an RFI to SAAB for assistance in Mk-1A program recently. All they will provide is expertise. Dassault is being considered for NLCA development especially landing gear issue. Mk-2 will be exported once IAF has inducted sufficient number of them. I can see Mk-1As being offered for export also even before Mk-2 production begins.
Ofcourse the tech designed for Tejas will find its way to AMCA, no surprises there.
Mk-1A has limited scope for upgradation due to the limited space availability. That's why IAF will be looking at Mk-2s to meet its requirements (but they get some breathing space with the induction of Mk-1As for the time-being).

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## randomradio

W@rwolf said:


> Show me quote where he declares the name of any of those three jets as the finalist for the 2nd production line.



I don't think you understand what's happening.



> Are you saying that ADA is incapable of pursuing two or more programs at once? Do you know how many they have going on right now? And again if its funds that you're talking about im sure the Govt knows whats best.



It depends on what they are prioritizing first.



> Are you just being stubborn? Navy has already expressed commitment to induct N-LCA and is solely funding the project without IAF. The reason why IAF said that is because the cannot wait any longer due to SQN shortfall. Hence decided to go for Mk-1A with compromises to stop the slide of aircraft number. They themselves have said that there's a need for 300+ light fighter once the MiG-21 are completely retired. Mk-2 is coming buddy, whether you like it or not.



I don't think you understood what I've said.

Mk2 is coming, IAF is not buying it. I'll go by what AM Raha said. Not what you are saying.



> In an earlier comment to someone you said the chart represented the aircraft's maximum capability w.r.t. turns, and yet they never considered Su-35 most critical feature for maneuverability?



Why should the max capability with TVC be considered in the first place? That's classified, far more than regular aerodynamics which can actually be calculated with the right data.



> Sorry, but the testbed is already flying with GaN modules. Aim is 2018 and not 2021. (dunno where your're getting these numbers from) Im sure @Picdelamirand-oil or @BON PLAN can share more info on the subject.
> Conformal array is part of 'smart-skin' programs to improve the SPECTRA's situational awareness. The radar array is a completely different system. (Take the radar out of the nose and apply it to the fuselage?? Really?)



I discuss this stuff every day with the gentlemen you mentioned, just not here, on a different forum.



> And the other's will be sitting idle. Im sure the Thales and Selex (in this situation) with much more experience in radar designing can do a better job that the newcomer.



GaN is simply superior hardware. Selex and Thales won't keep up with Saab's new radar without GaN.



> SAAB is nothing but an integrator, doesn't own complete rights to the subsystems. Hence separate contracts must be drawn up for each stakeholder in the Gripen program.



Another instance where you show ignorance.



> Rafale negotiations are complete buddy, not "vapour" anymore.



Really? You're telling me that.



> Dassault is being considered for NLCA development especially landing gear issue.



Yes, landing gear tech is part of offsets.



> Mk-2 will be exported once IAF has inducted sufficient number of them.



Why don't you tell that to AM Raha then? Even he doesn't know that.

Do you know that there is another single engine 5th gen aircraft planned? Stealth, supercruise, internal bays, Israeli avionics, MKI equivalent range etc. Squadron service expected in the 4th year after go ahead. Know about this?

Go back to Page 123 on this thread and start reading. You will learn about the actual requirements of the IAF and how much time they have for induction. I have provided all the numbers long before the media.


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## W@rwolf

randomradio said:


> I don't think you understand what's happening.





randomradio said:


> I don't think you understood what I've said.





randomradio said:


> Another instance where you show ignorance.




Well, we're just going in circles because of your inexplicable obsession with Gripen!

I ask you for a quote or proof of your claims and you renege. Then you contradict your own statements. I think you're the one who doesn't understand.



randomradio said:


> It depends on what they are prioritizing first.



Priority? Yes. But outright cancellation of a program? No.



randomradio said:


> Mk2 is coming, IAF is not buying it. I'll go by what AM Raha said. Not what you are saying.



IAF is not committing to Mk-2, *AS OF NOW*. I get it.
Please quote ACM Raha where he say's that IAF will 'never' go for further development of Mk-1A (ie Mk-2) in the future.



randomradio said:


> Why should the max capability with TVC be considered in the first place? That's classified, far more than regular aerodynamics which can actually be calculated with the right data.



Data from TVC (the vector limits?) is classified? So they just used whatever available aerodynamic data to calculate the aircraft's performance to submit a report to (a) Govt. where you said the max capability was considered and did not require data that includes TVC! Seems legit.



randomradio said:


> I discuss this stuff every day with the gentlemen you mentioned, just not here, on a different forum.



Maybe, I'm also sure @Picdelamirand-oil had mentioned the 2018 time frame in one of his comments (you should pay attention more i guess)



randomradio said:


> GaN is simply superior hardware. Selex and Thales won't keep up with Saab's new radar without GaN.



GaN is indeed superior to GaAs, no denying that. But to say Thales and Selex don't have a GaN program of their own....



randomradio said:


> Really? You're telling me that.



You seem surprised!



randomradio said:


> Why don't you tell that to *AM Raha* then? *Even he doesn't know that.*
> 
> Do you know that there is another single engine 5th gen aircraft planned? Stealth, supercruise, internal bays, Israeli avionics, MKI equivalent range etc. Squadron service expected in the 4th year after go ahead. Know about this?
> 
> Go back to Page 123 on this thread and start reading. You will learn about the actual requirements of the IAF and how much time they have for induction. I have provided all the numbers long before the media.



And I'm sure he share every one of his views with you.

Ofcourse i know about the 'planned' LSA. It'll be the next iteration of Tejas after the Mk-2. Although your comment about MKI equivalent range is pushing it.

In an ideal situation i'd have sided with the opinion that the current Mk-2 design be changed to make it a completely new 5th gen airframe and induct it after the Mk-1A. But unfortunate a lack of foresight into sqn strength and other unfortunate events does not permit it. Hence the IAF cannot wait for the redesign of LCA into a 5th gen aircraft and hence must induct them in their 4th gen format to make up for the shortfall, in the form of MK-2 (which are also unfortunately late)

I did go through the pages you mentioned to make sure i haven't missed anything. Your figures about IAF requirements are fine, but its the actual 'jets' where you went wrong. The Tejas (which is an MRCA in its own right) is sufficient to fill the void left by the retiring MiG-21s. There's no requirement for Gripen in IAFs fleet. IAF has never hinted at it nor they ever will. Gripens might come faster than the Mk-2, but at what expense? IAF is trying to reduce the type of aircrafts in its inventory by inducting multi-role aircrafts and you suggest they'll go for another jet that already is intended for the same role as Tejas?



randomradio said:


> The main idea behind the second MRCA is cheap costs.



So, Gripen will be cheaper than Mk-2?

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## C130

Abingdonboy said:


> The IAF has no use for the E-2D but the Indian navy is interested in it however they aren't interested in the F-18.
> 
> 
> I still fail to see why the unfunded "advanced super hornet" is a better option than than the Rafale. It would cost fluky the same (if not more so), have less outright performance, be limited by the restrictive end user agreements the US would impose and would not be able to be used as nuclear delivery platforms.




36 Rafale for 8.9 billion euros 
36 ASH for $2.5 billion

don't see how that's even remotely close in cost.


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## randomradio

W@rwolf said:


> Well, we're just going in circles because of your inexplicable obsession with Gripen!
> 
> I ask you for a quote or proof of your claims and you renege. Then you contradict your own statements. I think you're the one who doesn't understand.



Parrikar plans to have 1 twin and 1 single engine fighter made in India. This is apart from Rafale. Just google it, it's all over the place.



> Priority? Yes. But outright cancellation of a program? No.



Dude, you aren't understanding. Mk2 program will continue, but IAF isn't buying any.



> IAF is not committing to Mk-2, *AS OF NOW*. I get it.
> Please quote ACM Raha where he say's that IAF will 'never' go for further development of Mk-1A (ie Mk-2) in the future.



Yes, he's confirmed that. You won't get it in a newspaper quote. He's confirmed that any LCAs to be bought will no longer be divided into Mk1 Mk2 etc. IAF will buy the Tejas. And that jet will be upgraded as and when new tech is available.



> Maybe, I'm also sure @Picdelamirand-oil had mentioned the 2018 time frame in one of his comments (you should pay attention more i guess)



Even Picdel doesn't know. The data came from a French pilot. 

GaN is there, but it's part of the conformal array program that will come after 2021. Right now, GaN is only for Spectra.



> GaN is indeed superior to GaAs, no denying that. But to say Thales and Selex don't have a GaN program of their own....



Can you say where I said that? Don't talk when you don't know how the Rafale program is proceeding. I have been following it for years now.

GaN for radar is 5 years away. It's targeted for service entry after 2021.

Follow this thread. I hope information is there.
https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/



> You seem surprised!



Dude, go back previous pages, I've said the same long ago. I've known since last month when negotiations completed. That's why I was sarcastic in my reply. I've also said FGFA will end up being signed first, it's already being looked at by the minstry.



> Ofcourse i know about the 'planned' LSA. It'll be the next iteration of Tejas after the Mk-2. Although your comment about MKI equivalent range is pushing it.



Oh, God! No. Stop responding to my posts. It's clear you are just babbling now. The designer of the LSA is on another forum where we discuss these things. His jet has nothing to do with LCA. He is not affiliated with ADA or DRDO or HAL. In fact, he won't even touch HAL with a barge pole.

He plans to have the Israelis make the cockpit initially and have the jet made and assembled by the IAF at their BRDs.



> In an ideal situation i'd have sided with the opinion that the current Mk-2 design be changed to make it a completely new 5th gen airframe and induct it after the Mk-1A.



That's impossible.



> There's no requirement for Gripen in IAFs fleet.



If we are not buying Gripen then we are buying F-16. That's the choice for a single engine fighter, Gripen or F-16. Out of those, I support Gripen for obvious reasons. And I know that India has signed some sort of agreement with Saab in Singapore.



> So, Gripen will be cheaper than Mk-2?



Gripen will be far more advanced than the Mk2. Its cost will reflect that. Gripen's IOC is in 2021 while Mk2's IOC is in 2023. AMCA is expected to get its IOC in *2024*. You get it now?

Do you see why Mk2 is impossible for the IAF? AMCA is a very very high priority project. It has only a 5-6 year TD to serial production stage, unlike LCA which has taken 15 years.

After 2027 IAF will only be inducting FGFA and AMCA.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

C130 said:


> 36 Rafale for 8.9 billion euros
> 36 ASH for $2.5 billion
> 
> don't see how that's even remotely close in cost.


Honestly $2.5 billions for 36 ASH is a price for a fly away aircraft. Can you agree?
And 8.9 billion is not for a fly away aircraft.
The fly away price of a rafale is around $ 73 millions depending of the version (C,B,or M) and then 36 Rafale price is $ 2.628 billions


> Le coût unitaire (hors coût de développement) de 74 M€2013 pour le Rafale B (pour 110 avions) de 68,8 M€2013 pour le Rafale C (pour 118 avions) et de 79 M€2011pour le Rafale M (pour 58 avions).


http://www.senat.fr/rap/a13-158-8/a13-158-814.html
This is an official report from the French "SENAT"
*Translation:*
_Unit cost (excluding development costs) of 74 M € 2013 for the Rafale B (110 aircraft) of 68.8 M € 2013 for the Rafale C (to 118 aircraft) and € 79 million 2011pour Rafale M (for 58 aircraft)._

It is important to note that the program costs and acquisition are all set by the state with the value added tax included: that means that the cost are the following:
Rafale B two-seat Air Force: 74 M € with VAT and 61.87 without taxe ====>$ 68.68 Million
Rafale C single-seat Air Force: 68.8 M € with VAT and 57.52 without taxe ====>$ 63.85 Million
Rafale M, single-seat Navy : 79 M € with VAT and 66.05 without taxe ====>$ 73.31Million

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## randomradio

C130 said:


> 36 Rafale for 8.9 billion euros
> 36 ASH for $2.5 billion
> 
> don't see how that's even remotely close in cost.



I think you are talking about the Super Hornet Block 2 being purchased by the USN, and not ASH. And fly away price won't count for much because your price for the SH is half of what Brazil is paying for the Gripens.

In fact the Rafale is cheaper than the price you've quoted for the SH. If you consider a 18-18 split between Rafale single and twin seat for the IAF, then the total cost will come up to $2.4B, that's cheaper than the SH. And the Rafale comes with all the modern goodies, Spectra, FSO, sensor fusion.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio said:


> Even Picdel doesn't know. The data came from a French pilot.
> 
> GaN is there, but it's part of the conformal array program that will come after 2021. Right now, GaN is only for Spectra.
> 
> Can you say where I said that? Don't talk when you don't know how the Rafale program is proceeding. I have been following it for years now.
> 
> GaN for radar is 5 years away. It's targeted for service entry after 2021.
> 
> Follow this thread. I hope information is there.
> https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/


The development is already done for both: SPECTRA and AESA.

But there is a problem of cost: GaN T/R modules cost a lot because there is not civilian application needed this technology, so there is not a mass production.

We plane to induct SPECTRA antenna first because the antenna are small and hence the cost will be lower. We hope that more and more military and spatial applications will reduce the cost, for us been able to introduce GaN on Radar too.

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## W@rwolf

randomradio said:


> At least one of them is 100% guaranteed.





randomradio said:


> Parrikar plans to have 1 twin and 1 single engine fighter made in India. This is apart from Rafale. Just google it, it's all over the place.





randomradio said:


> If we are not buying Gripen then we are buying F-16. That's the choice for a single engine fighter, Gripen or F-16. Out of those, I support Gripen for obvious reasons. And I know that India has signed some sort of agreement with Saab in Singapore.



In the first quote you said from ASH, F-16 and Gripen, one is guaranteed. You also said that MP talked about the two new production line to be set up in India.Yet you fail to consider both Rafales or LCA Mk-2 as MP's choice for the same.



randomradio said:


> Dude, you aren't understanding. Mk2 program will continue, but IAF isn't buying any.





randomradio said:


> Yes, he's confirmed that. You won't get it in a newspaper quote. He's confirmed that any LCAs to be bought will no longer be divided into Mk1 Mk2 etc. IAF will buy the Tejas. And that jet will be upgraded as and when new tech is available.



Again you assume that IAF will not go for more Tejas over the current order without any substance to it. Then you say they'll be upgraded once new tech is available.

Do you know one of the main problem faced by Mk-1 is shortage of space even for basic sub systems like SPJ? And yet you magically find more space in the airframe to integrate even more tech in the future without any change in the airframe! Im not able to understand your logic.



randomradio said:


> Can you say where I said that? Don't talk when you don't know how the Rafale program is proceeding. I have been following it for years now.
> 
> GaN for radar is 5 years away. It's targeted for service entry after 2021.
> 
> Follow this thread. I hope information is there.
> https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/



Here's where you made that statement.
"GaN is simply superior hardware. *Selex and Thales won't keep up with Saab's new radar without GaN*"




randomradio said:


> Even Picdel doesn't know. The data came from a French pilot.
> 
> GaN is there, but it's part of the conformal array program that will come after 2021. Right now, GaN is only for Spectra.



Yes, I may have been wrong on the date for induction of GaN modules on RBE2 array.



randomradio said:


> Oh, God! No. Stop responding to my posts. It's clear you are just babbling now. The designer of the LSA is on another forum where we discuss these things. His jet has nothing to do with LCA. He is not affiliated with ADA or DRDO or HAL. In fact, he won't even touch HAL with a barge pole.
> 
> He plans to have the Israelis make the cockpit initially and have the jet made and assembled by the IAF at their BRDs.



The LSA (just an abbreviation for stealth aircraft in light category) i was referring to was not based on whatever the other chap was referring to in whichever forum it was. There is a proposal inside ADA for a Tejas spin-off in the 5th gen format. I was referring to that.



randomradio said:


> Gripen will be far more advanced than the Mk2. Its cost will reflect that. Gripen's IOC is in 2021 while Mk2's IOC is in 2023. AMCA is expected to get its IOC in *2024*. You get it now?
> 
> Do you see why Mk2 is impossible for the IAF? AMCA is a very very high priority project. It has only a 5-6 year TD to serial production stage, unlike LCA which has taken 15 years.
> 
> After 2027 IAF will only be inducting FGFA and AMCA.



Advance in sensor fusion, Yes. But every other parameter would be more or less equal or atleast comparable. (Maybe except radar unless the Israelis come up with GaN)
I've already agreed that Mk-2, when they come, will be late. You cannot compare LCA's and AMCA's developmental timeframe. Both are different and there were a lot of factors responsible for the late induction of Tejas which is not present in the case of AMCA.
Mk-2 will be late, but the IAF will get some breathing room with the induction of Mk-1As.


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## C130

randomradio said:


> I think you are talking about the Super Hornet Block 2 being purchased by the USN, and not ASH. And fly away price won't count for much because your price for the SH is half of what Brazil is paying for the Gripens.
> 
> In fact the Rafale is cheaper than the price you've quoted for the SH. If you consider a 18-18 split between Rafale single and twin seat for the IAF, then the total cost will come up to $2.4B, that's cheaper than the SH. And the Rafale comes with all the modern goodies, Spectra, FSO, sensor fusion.




ASH will be about $70 million each, including weapons,training, service, more like $120 million each=$4.3 billion

Rafale is about $120 million flyaway cost+french weapons,training, service, more like $250 million each=$9 billion

ASH is half the cost of Rafale

ASH is modern, albeit it doesn't have SPECTRA







one of the lowest RCS for a non stealth fighter
enclosed weapons pod
built in IRST
conformal fuel tanks (adds 130 nautical mile range or 30 minutes longer on station)
enhanced engines (which can be used on the blk 2 Tejas)
ALQ-214 jammer
huuuge single MFD





a lot of upside.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

C130 said:


> Rafale is about $120 million flyaway cost+french weapons,training, service, more like $250 million each=$9 billion


I already said you (with official link) that Rafale flyaway price is around $ 73 millions (note: price is cost + margin) so it's not a $ 120 million flyaway cost!

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## randomradio

W@rwolf said:


> In the first quote you said from ASH, F-16 and Gripen, one is guaranteed. You also said that MP talked about the two new production line to be set up in India.Yet you fail to consider both Rafales or LCA Mk-2 as MP's choice for the same.



Rafale is over. Parrikar has said on quote that he plans to buy one more twin engine and single engine aircraft. This is purely for imports, so LCA is not counted.

The reason I think Gripen is a shoo-in is because Parrikar had recently said in the Parliament that India won't be buying the F-16.



> Again you assume that IAF will not go for more Tejas over the current order without any substance to it. Then you say they'll be upgraded once new tech is available.



You are confusing going for more Tejas with Mk2. I never said IAF won't go for more Mk1A.



> Do you know one of the main problem faced by Mk-1 is shortage of space even for basic sub systems like SPJ? And yet you magically find more space in the airframe to integrate even more tech in the future without any change in the airframe! Im not able to understand your logic.



IAF doesn't want an internal jammer anymore.



> Here's where you made that statement.
> "GaN is simply superior hardware. *Selex and Thales won't keep up with Saab's new radar without GaN*"



Yes. And when have I said anything for you to say "But to say Thales and Selex don't have a GaN program of their own...."

Selex and Thales don't have a GaN radar. Saab has. End of story. Having GaN modules and having a GaN radar are two very different things.

This post will confirm what I have been saying.
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-261#post-8413767



> Yes, I may have been wrong on the date for induction of GaN modules on RBE2 array.



There, you admit it. The radar will be a brand new system, a further evolution, but very different hardware. Thales plans to remove the radar from the nose and put it other parts of the fuselage and maybe wings.



> The LSA (just an abbreviation for stealth aircraft in light category) i was referring to was not based on whatever the other chap was referring to in whichever forum it was. There is a proposal inside ADA for a Tejas spin-off in the 5th gen format. I was referring to that.



There is no '5th gen' Tejas if you are referring to a supercruise aircraft with internal bays.



> Advance in sensor fusion, Yes. But every other parameter would be more or less equal or atleast comparable. (Maybe except radar unless the Israelis come up with GaN)
> I've already agreed that Mk-2, when they come, will be late. You cannot compare LCA's and AMCA's developmental timeframe. Both are different and there were a lot of factors responsible for the late induction of Tejas which is not present in the case of AMCA.
> Mk-2 will be late, but the IAF will get some breathing room with the induction of Mk-1As.



Bro, the Mk2 has no chance in the IAF because they want the AMCA next, after the Mk1A. There is a chance that they may order up to 2 more squadrons of Mk1A. The current plan is to make 8 squadrons in 8 years. The IAF has reduced some goals for the LCA. They have decided to induct the Mk1A with an external pod jammer. With the right radar, and a bit of extra investment, it will be possible to add EA capability to the radar also.

Basically, there's not much wrong with the Mk1A except weight. The better the weight reduction goals, the better the aircraft's range and payload.

Once the minimum number of LCA Mk1A are made, the production line will switch to the navy's N-LCAs. And that will add 3 years to the current schedule of 8 years for the Mk1A, that takes it to a grand total of 11 years of production. Which means production will end in 2027, without considering delays, for the armed forces. AMCA will take over, probably with two production lines, one by HAL and another by a private company, while LCA's line will switch to export markets.

Mk2 will form the basis for the N-LCA Mk2 simply because the navy needs the extra thrust for carrier ops. And the AF Mk2 itself will be exported to other countries.



C130 said:


> ASH will be about $70 million each



The Rafale-C F3+ costs $63M. The IAF version of Rafale is expected to cost about $80-90M, closer to 80. Parrikar was saying he wants to bring the flyaway cost to 75M euros, that's $83M today.

And if you go by this source:-
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...g-disputes-denmarks-f-35-evaluation/84613000/


> According to the fiscal 2017 budget request, an Air Force F-35A costs about $99 million in FY17, and about $101.5 million in FY18. *The same budget documents show the Super Hornet costs $77.8 million in FY17, and $78 million in FY18.*


*
*
The standard SH alone costs $77.8M for the USN. The ASH with a new wing and extra avionics will obviously cost way more.

I suppose we will know about the costs when Canada buys a couple of SHs.

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## C130

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> I already said you (with official link) that Rafale flyaway price is around $ 73 millions (note: price is cost + margin) so it's not a $ 120 million flyaway cost!



$73 million flyaway cost really


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## Picdelamirand-oil

C130 said:


> $73 million flyaway cost really


No....$73 million flyaway *price*

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## GURU DUTT

randomradio said:


> Rafale is over. Parrikar has said on quote that he plans to buy one more twin engine and single engine aircraft. This is purely for imports, so LCA is not counted.
> 
> The reason I think Gripen is a shoo-in is because Parrikar had recently said in the Parliament that India won't be buying the F-16.
> 
> 
> 
> You are confusing going for more Tejas with Mk2. I never said IAF won't go for more Mk1A.
> 
> 
> 
> IAF doesn't want an internal jammer anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. And when have I said anything for you to say "But to say Thales and Selex don't have a GaN program of their own...."
> 
> Selex and Thales don't have a GaN radar. Saab has. End of story. Having GaN modules and having a GaN radar are two very different things.
> 
> This post will confirm what I have been saying.
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-261#post-8413767
> 
> 
> 
> There, you admit it. The radar will be a brand new system, a further evolution, but very different hardware. Thales plans to remove the radar from the nose and put it other parts of the fuselage and maybe wings.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no '5th gen' Tejas if you are referring to a supercruise aircraft with internal bays.
> 
> 
> 
> Bro, the Mk2 has no chance in the IAF because they want the AMCA next, after the Mk1A. There is a chance that they may order up to 2 more squadrons of Mk1A. The current plan is to make 8 squadrons in 8 years. The IAF has reduced some goals for the LCA. They have decided to induct the Mk1A with an external pod jammer. With the right radar, and a bit of extra investment, it will be possible to add EA capability to the radar also.
> 
> Basically, there's not much wrong with the Mk1A except weight. The better the weight reduction goals, the better the aircraft's range and payload.
> 
> Once the minimum number of LCA Mk1A are made, the production line will switch to the navy's N-LCAs. And that will add 3 years to the current schedule of 8 years for the Mk1A, that takes it to a grand total of 11 years of production. Which means production will end in 2027, without considering delays, for the armed forces. AMCA will take over, probably with two production lines, one by HAL and another by a private company, while LCA's line will switch to export markets.
> 
> Mk2 will form the basis for the N-LCA Mk2 simply because the navy needs the extra thrust for carrier ops. And the AF Mk2 itself will be exported to other countries.
> 
> 
> 
> The Rafale-C F3+ costs $63M. The IAF version of Rafale is expected to cost about $80-90M, closer to 80. Parrikar was saying he wants to bring the flyaway cost to 75M euros, that's $83M today.
> 
> And if you go by this source:-
> http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...g-disputes-denmarks-f-35-evaluation/84613000/
> *
> *
> The standard SH alone costs $77.8M for the USN. The ASH with a new wing and extra avionics will obviously cost way more.
> 
> I suppose we will know about the costs when Canada buys a couple of SHs.


off all things you have said there are few points even i have knowledge and they are

1.IAF will only get some 20 trainer version of LCA and around 100-120 MK1A while 10 trainer version of NLCA and some 40 regular NLCA

2.there wont me MK2 version of LCA rather MP has put all his wieght behind fast tracking AMCA

3.there will be 36+90(under MII) rafales and 36 Rafale M for IN

4.there is strong possibility of 90 Ex USAF fighters which can be either upgraded (with maybe Israeli EL2052)and refurbished to F16V or F/A18 EF nothing more than that

5.there wont be any grippen variant either for IAF or IN



C130 said:


> ASH will be about $70 million each, including weapons,training, service, more like $120 million each=$4.3 billion
> 
> Rafale is about $120 million flyaway cost+french weapons,training, service, more like $250 million each=$9 billion
> 
> ASH is half the cost of Rafale
> 
> ASH is modern, albeit it doesn't have SPECTRA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> one of the lowest RCS for a non stealth fighter
> enclosed weapons pod
> built in IRST
> conformal fuel tanks (adds 130 nautical mile range or 30 minutes longer on station)
> enhanced engines (which can be used on the blk 2 Tejas)
> ALQ-214 jammer
> huuuge single MFD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a lot of upside.


well not sure weather USA will give ASH to india but if it does really it wont be 120 million each, including weapons,training, service its more like 150 million which is 5.4millon but it does make more sense than F16V which most will be EX-USAF F16 C/D s with deep MLU to F16V level which is around 120 million each, including weapons,training, service

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## Taygibay

Why do you people contribute to a discussion with some one so ill-informed?



randomradio said:


> *Selex *and Thales* don't have a GaN radar*. Saab has. End of story. Having GaN modules and having a GaN radar are two very different things.



09 juli 2012
The Gripen NG test aircraft is now flying with a SELEX Galileo Raven ES-05 AESA radar installed, following extensiv testing with an earlier AESA prototype.

*Raven ES-05 is a high performance Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) fire control radar designed for the Saab Gripen NG multi role fighter that builds on over 60 years of SELEX Galileo’s fire control radar experience.* It has been designed in close collaboration with Saab and is a vital part of the Gripen next generation multi functional sensor system.
http://saabgroup.com/sv/media/news-press/news/2012-07/gripen-ng-flying-with-raven-es-05-aesa-radar/

The rest is of the same caliber and I'm passing on numerous calls of -"You don't understand."
when proven in error, claims that he alone gets it and speaking for others or in derogatory ways.

Much ado about nothing.
Just remember this :


randomradio said:


> Bro, I am not giving my opinion. I am telling what's happening in South Block.
> 
> It is most likely that India and Sweden have signed an agreement for production of Gripens in Singapore on June 3rd. We don't know how serious the agreement is.


Not an opinion, knows reality ... or just a kid full ( more like overflowing ) of himself?



Gripen along with the F-18 have lost the MMRCA; neither would do.

Here's an alternative to what Parrikar is preparing that works in the real world :


W@rwolf said:


> “_We also envisage acquiring single-engined and twin-engined fighter aircraft under the ‘Make in India’ programme_,” he says. “_Final discussions are likely to be concluded in a couple of months to decide the exact course of action, though more or less the line is decided_.”



One line of Tejas Mk1A for HAL + one line of Tejas Mk1+/ Mk2 run by a private Indian firm.
One line of Rafale under MII for post-36 follow-through orders.

IAF gets a 3-tier format as soon as the older birds retire.

FGFA / AMCA can take proper time to reach fruition.

By the way, MP likely means a line of action is drawn in his end quote, not a production one ...


Don't get drawn in by antics or lured by soliloquies, Tay.

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## W@rwolf

randomradio said:


> Rafale is over. Parrikar has said on quote that he plans to buy one more twin engine and single engine aircraft. This is purely for imports, so LCA is not counted.
> 
> The reason I think Gripen is a shoo-in is because Parrikar had recently said in the Parliament that India won't be buying the F-16.





GURU DUTT said:


> 3.there will be 36+90(under MII) rafales and 36 Rafale M for IN





GURU DUTT said:


> 4.there is strong possibility of 90 Ex USAF fighters which can be either upgraded (with maybe Israeli EL2052)and refurbished to F16V or F/A18 EF nothing more than that





GURU DUTT said:


> 5.there wont be any grippen variant either for IAF or IN



Yes, more Rafales are coming apart from from the 36 being currently negotiated. The second production line for twin engined fighter that MP has hinted is the 90+36 Rafales to be MII by a private prod line (which can take over AMCA production once Rafale orders are finished).

Im still not convinced that Gripens or Falcons are coming to IAF stables. I've already given my POV in the Gripen issue. As for F-16, i think the combo of ITAR and the fact that PAF operates them will make IAF think twice before allowing them to be bought.

Also, SH if bought will come under IAF MMRCA requirements, but the fact that they've already been rejected during trials is the deciding factor. (although the ASH might be close to Rafale, i think IAF is better off with more Rafale which are better, and also since they'd be adding another type without any benefits)



randomradio said:


> IAF doesn't want an internal jammer anymore.



And waste a hardpoint in an already payload constrained jet? I don't think so.



randomradio said:


> There, you admit it. The radar will be a brand new system, a further evolution, but very different hardware. Thales plans to remove the radar from the nose and put it other parts of the fuselage and maybe wings.



The 'smart skin' will augment the radar, not replace it.



randomradio said:


> There is no '5th gen' Tejas if you are referring to a supercruise aircraft with internal bays.



I know there's nothing official being discussed. But i think its the best way to continue LCA's legacy. IAF will need more light fighters in the future and this will fit the bill perfectly.



randomradio said:


> Bro, the Mk2 has no chance in the IAF because they want the AMCA next, after the Mk1A. There is a chance that they may order up to 2 more squadrons of Mk1A. The current plan is to make 8 squadrons in 8 years. The IAF has reduced some goals for the LCA. They have decided to induct the Mk1A with an external pod jammer. With the right radar, and a bit of extra investment, it will be possible to add EA capability to the radar also.
> 
> Basically, there's not much wrong with the Mk1A except weight. The better the weight reduction goals, the better the aircraft's range and payload.
> 
> Once the minimum number of LCA Mk1A are made, the production line will switch to the navy's N-LCAs. And that will add 3 years to the current schedule of 8 years for the Mk1A, that takes it to a grand total of 11 years of production. Which means production will end in 2027, without considering delays, for the armed forces. AMCA will take over, probably with two production lines, one by HAL and another by a private company, while LCA's line will switch to export markets.
> 
> Mk2 will form the basis for the N-LCA Mk2 simply because the navy needs the extra thrust for carrier ops. And the AF Mk2 itself will be exported to other countries.





GURU DUTT said:


> 2.there wont me MK2 version of LCA rather MP has put all his wieght behind fast tracking AMCA



I really hope MK-2 is not cancelled for IAF. The Mk-1A will not fill the shoes of IAF's GSQR (which was pretty audacious to start with) but giving up so close when Mk-2 will be the answer seems foolish!
Also going for more Mk-1A instead of Mk-2 is not going to work well as the airframe will already be at the limits of upgradation. It will need to undergo massive redesigning to keep up in the coming decades, which is why Mk-2 is still relevant. 

I understand the relevance of AMCA's faster induction. But IAF's light fighter shortfall will not fill by itself and needs more Tejas.



Taygibay said:


> One line of Tejas Mk1A for HAL + one line of Tejas Mk1+/ Mk2 run by a private Indian firm.
> One line of Rafale under MII for post-36 follow-through orders.
> 
> IAF gets a 3-tier format as soon as the older birds retire.
> 
> FGFA / AMCA can take proper time to reach fruition.
> 
> *By the way, MP likely means a line of action is drawn in his end quote, not a production one ...*
> 
> 
> Don't get drawn in by antics or lured by soliloquies, Tay.



Of all the words he could have used, he went for 'line' !! 
Either it was a deliberate attempt to confound us, or maybe he actually was referring to the production lines.

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## Taygibay

W@rwolf said:


> Of all the words he could have used, he went for 'line' !!
> Either it was a deliberate attempt to confound us, or maybe he actually was referring to the production lines.



Yeah, I know, that's why I brought it up  but remember that *line* as in course of action
is now a pervasive term found in finances and marketing and not solely in mil & politics.
It is not kept for logic as in _line of thought_ as much as it used to however which is sad ...

Might still be a _lapsus confundi_, Tay.


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## zebra7

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> No....$73 million flyaway *price*



May be he is offering YF-17 with weapons



topgun047 said:


> Anyone know where do Tejas and F-16 stand on the graph posted by @randomradio ?



Take it with the pinch of salt, and forget it.



W@rwolf said:


> Guaranteed? On whose authority?





randomradio said:


> Parrikar.



It took me for a while, why @randomradio is hell bend for Gripen, and B.S theory. I got the source, and duly posted his contribution here.

https://defence.pk/threads/hal-tejas-updates-news-discussions-thread-2.351401/page-106#post-8415071

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Why do you people contribute to a discussion with some one so ill-informed?
> 
> 
> 
> 09 juli 2012
> The Gripen NG test aircraft is now flying with a SELEX Galileo Raven ES-05 AESA radar installed, following extensiv testing with an earlier AESA prototype.
> 
> *Raven ES-05 is a high performance Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) fire control radar designed for the Saab Gripen NG multi role fighter that builds on over 60 years of SELEX Galileo’s fire control radar experience.* It has been designed in close collaboration with Saab and is a vital part of the Gripen next generation multi functional sensor system.
> http://saabgroup.com/sv/media/news-press/news/2012-07/gripen-ng-flying-with-raven-es-05-aesa-radar/
> 
> The rest is of the same caliber and I'm passing on numerous calls of -"You don't understand."
> when proven in error, claims that he alone gets it and speaking for others or in derogatory ways.
> 
> Much ado about nothing.
> Just remember this :
> 
> Not an opinion, knows reality ... or just a kid full ( more like overflowing ) of himself?
> 
> 
> 
> Gripen along with the F-18 have lost the MMRCA; neither would do.
> 
> Here's an alternative to what Parrikar is preparing that works in the real world :
> 
> 
> One line of Tejas Mk1A for HAL + one line of Tejas Mk1+/ Mk2 run by a private Indian firm.
> One line of Rafale under MII for post-36 follow-through orders.
> 
> IAF gets a 3-tier format as soon as the older birds retire.
> 
> FGFA / AMCA can take proper time to reach fruition.
> 
> By the way, MP likely means a line of action is drawn in his end quote, not a production one ...
> 
> 
> Don't get drawn in by antics or lured by soliloquies, Tay.



Selex do not have a GaN radar.

As for Saab-
http://www.stratpost.com/saab-adds-gan-aesa-co-dev-to-make-india-gripen-pitch


> *This development is different from the SELEX Galileo Raven ES-05 AESA radar developed for the Gripen.* But Sweden is clear that the offer to share GaN AESA radar technology would be only be on offer if India were to agree to to produce the Gripen in India for the IAF.



Oops, I'm so uninformed that people think I'm talking about Selex.



> One line of Tejas Mk1A for HAL + one line of Tejas Mk1+/ Mk2 run by a private Indian firm.



He is not talking about Tejas genius. Tejas's production lines have already been built.

What may happen:
Rafale MII
Gripen MII

What I hope will happen
Rafale MII
LSA MII

When he says one or two jets are to be made, he is talking about importing, Tejas is unrelated.



W@rwolf said:


> And waste a hardpoint in an already payload constrained jet? I don't think so.



You may not think so, but you are wrong. A hardpoint won't be wasted because one of them will carry twin arms for a missile and the pod.



> The 'smart skin' will augment the radar, not replace it.



Tell that to Thales. They said it, not me.


----------



## GURU DUTT

randomradio said:


> Selex do not have a GaN radar.
> 
> As for Saab-
> http://www.stratpost.com/saab-adds-gan-aesa-co-dev-to-make-india-gripen-pitch
> 
> 
> Oops, I'm so uninformed that people think I'm talking about Selex.
> 
> 
> 
> He is not talking about Tejas genius. Tejas's production lines have already been built.
> 
> What may happen:
> Rafale MII
> Gripen MII
> 
> What I hope will happen
> Rafale MII
> LSA MII
> 
> When he says one or two jets are to be made, he is talking about importing, Tejas is unrelated.
> 
> 
> 
> You may not think so, but you are wrong. A hardpoint won't be wasted because one of them will carry twin arms for a missile and the pod.
> 
> 
> 
> Tell that to Thales. They said it, not me.


what is LSA ?


----------



## randomradio

I don't think people have fully appreciated the numbers.

Phase 1:
IAF requirement = 400 by 2027
IN requirement = 150 by 2027

IAF:
Rafale 36+90 = 126. 90 MII
LCA Mk1/A = 144
Left over = 130
Production time = 10 years. IAF wants full squadron strength of 42 over 10 years.

IN
N-LCA Mk1 = 6
N-LCA Mk2 = 45
Left over = 100
Production time = 10 years

It is impossible for LCA or Rafale to finish their current orders fast enough. It will take Rafale 7.5 years to deliver all 90 to the IAF, that's 2027. It will take LCA 8 years to deliver 144 to the IAF, that's 2024. What do you think IN's going to do in that time? They need spare production capacity as well, especially the Rafales. And this not even counting the extra 130 jets that the IAF needs. It is impossible without a second MRCA 'production line' that delivers jets in parallel to the Rafale and LCA.

And you guys haven't considered attrition at all.

In total IAF and IN need 550 jets in 10 years from now. Now, you lot, @Taygibay and @W@rwolf, decide how this requirement is split up. It's 55 jets a year.



GURU DUTT said:


> what is LSA ?



An Indian single engine 5th gen aircraft. Has stealth, supercruise, IWB etc. Light Stealth Aircraft.

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## GURU DUTT

randomradio said:


> An Indian single engine 5th gen aircraft. Has stealth, supercruise, IWB etc. Light Stealth Aircraft.



well that shount be a problem we can add a stealthy nose cone and over all stealth design with angelled twin horizontal stabalizers and a detachable stealth gondola like of advanced super hornet on LCA which can do just fine like this one







or maybe a single engined version of this LCA fan art concept


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## randomradio

GURU DUTT said:


> well that shount be a problem we can add a stealthy nose cone and over all stealth design with angelled twin horizontal stabalizers and a detachable stealth gondola like of advanced super hornet on LCA which can do just fine like this one



No, that's not possible for LCA. LCA doesn't have planform alignment or space for IWB. It has a vertical fin. And a stealth pod adds drag, which reduces its already low range. And LCA has obviously not been made for supercruise.

LSA is being made for a payload of 7.5 tons, it has higher fuel fraction than the MKI and can carry 16 missiles in its ultimate form. Even MKI can carry only 12, LCA can carry 6. It can supercruise greater than mach 1.5.

The Rafale design is a concept art.


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## GURU DUTT

randomradio said:


> No, that's not possible for LCA. LCA doesn't have planform alignment or space for IWB. It has a vertical fin. And a stealth pod adds drag, which reduces its already low range. And LCA has obviously not been made for supercruise.
> 
> LSA is being made for a payload of 7.5 tons, it has higher fuel fraction than the MKI and can carry 16 missiles in its ultimate form. Even MKI can carry only 12, LCA can carry 6. It can supercruise greater than mach 1.5.
> 
> The Rafale design is a concept art.


so basically your talking about AMCA ... well they have indeed changed name again from MCA to AMCA to LSA now


----------



## randomradio

GURU DUTT said:


> so basically your talking about AMCA ... well they have indeed changed name again from MCA to AMCA to LSA now



Haha. No. The problem with LSA is it is much smaller than AMCA. LSA is 6.5 tons empty, while AMCA is twice that. So the LSA is being designed as an escort aircraft for the MKI. So the MKI can carry a lot of ordinance while the LSA will protect it with its large array of missiles.

AMCA will be far more advanced in every way. LSA is supposed to be a cheap fighter with new tech. It is designed to exceed the entire Tejas program in every single way.

In fact LSA will kill the need for both LCA and Rafale. Apparently, the Israelis want to buy 100 of these jets if the program gets the go ahead, and they will transfer all technologies for the LSA's avionics. Parrikar will make the decision to either go for it or scuttle it after the 36 aircraft contract is finished.

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## GURU DUTT

randomradio said:


> Haha. No. The problem with LSA is it is much smaller than AMCA. LSA is 6.5 tons empty, while AMCA is twice that. So the LSA is being designed as an escort aircraft for the MKI. So the MKI can carry a lot of ordinance while the LSA will protect it with its large array of missiles.
> 
> AMCA will be far more advanced in every way. LSA is supposed to be a cheap fighter with new tech. It is designed to exceed the entire Tejas program in every single way.
> 
> In fact LSA will kill the need for both LCA and Rafale. Apparently, the Israelis want to buy 100 of these jets if the program gets the go ahead, and they will transfer all technologies for the LSA's avionics. Parrikar will make the decision to either go for it or scuttle it after the 36 aircraft contract is finished.


LCA MK2 & AMCA is still on design board and HAL dreaming of LSA 

well right now as things are going with HAL and ADA and DRDO prospects of LSA are no more than say 1:100 but then .... umeed pe duniya kayam hai


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## W@rwolf

randomradio said:


> You may not think so, but you are wrong. A hardpoint won't be wasted because one of them will carry twin arms for a missile and the pod.



Is it your own conjecture or do you have any substantial evidence that ADA/HAL might be working on it?



randomradio said:


> I don't think people have fully appreciated the numbers.
> 
> *IAF:*
> Rafale 36+90 = 126. 90 MII
> LCA Mk1/A = 144
> Left over = 130
> Production time = 10 years. IAF wants full squadron strength of 42 over 10 years.
> 
> *IN*
> N-LCA Mk1 = 6
> N-LCA Mk2 = 45
> Left over = 100
> Production time = 10 years
> 
> It is impossible for LCA or Rafale to finish their current orders fast enough. It will take Rafale 7.5 years to deliver all 90 to the IAF, that's 2027. It will take LCA 8 years to deliver 144 to the IAF, that's 2024. What do you think IN's going to do in that time? They need spare production capacity as well, especially the Rafales. And this not even counting the extra 130 jets that the IAF needs. It is impossible without a second MRCA 'production line' that delivers jets in parallel to the Rafale and LCA.
> 
> And you guys haven't considered attrition at all.
> 
> In total IAF and IN need 550 jets in 10 years from now. Now, you lot, @Taygibay and @W@rwolf, decide how this requirement is split up. It's 55 jets a year.



Made a few changes to your figures. Let's see if it makes better sense.
*
IAF
*
Tejas Mk-1 = 20+20
Tejas Mk-1A = 108 (HAL + MII)
Tejas Mk-2 = 144 (HAL + MII)
Rafale = 36 + 90MII

Total = 418 (23 Sqn)

*IN *

NLCA Mk-2 = 45 (HAL + MII)
Rafale-M = 54MII (for IAC-2)

Total = 99 (5 Sqn)

HAL will assemble 16 jets per year at its peak performance. MII line can deliver 12-16 jets per year, commencing from 2019. That implies 337 Tejas Mk-1/1A/2/NLCA jets can be delivered by 2027-'28.
Rafale production line at Merignac will supply 36 jets in 5 years, and another 18 Rafale-Ms will delivered directly while the rest will be MII. The MII line will start deliveries in 2019, peak capacity of 12-16 jets per year, delivering the remaining 126 in 8 years.


----------



## randomradio

GURU DUTT said:


> LCA MK2 & AMCA is still on design board and HAL dreaming of LSA



It's not HAL's project.



W@rwolf said:


> Is it your own conjecture or do you have any substantial evidence that ADA/HAL might be working on it?



HAL officials have confirmed it. Twin arm for pod and missile.



> Tejas Mk-1 = 20+20



At 16/year, that's 2.5 years. So let's say 2018.5.



> Tejas Mk-1A = 108 (HAL + MII)



At 16/year, that's 6.75 years. That's 2025.



> Tejas Mk-2 = 144 (HAL + MII)



At 16/year, from 2024, that's 2033.

Waah bhai! So your numbers will be reached only in 2033.

*



IN

Click to expand...

*


> NLCA Mk-2 = 45 (HAL + MII)



This will take 2.8 years. Now where do you want to fit this in because all the production went to the IAF? You've just thrown numbers around without giving any consideration to the time it takes to build these jets.

Let me give you the actual break up of the production.
LCA IAF: 144 jets in 8 years. That's 2024.
LCA IN: 45 jets in 3 years. That's 2027.

This ends LCA production for India. All future production will go towards export markets.



> Rafale-M = 54MII (for IAC-2)



Now Rafale. 90 for IAF and 54 for IN. That's 9 years production time at 16 per year. So that's 2029.



> HAL will assemble 16 jets per year at its peak performance. MII line can deliver 12-16 jets per year, commencing from 2019. That implies 337 Tejas Mk-1/1A/2/NLCA jets can be delivered by 2027-'28.



16*10=160 jets. How did it magically increase to 337?

For 337 jets we need to manufacture 33.7 jets a year. Where's that production capacity? Not to mention you have considered 144 jets will be manufactured in just 3-4 years flat.



> Rafale production line at Merignac will supply 36 jets in 5 years, and another 18 Rafale-Ms will delivered directly while the rest will be MII. The MII line will start deliveries in 2019, peak capacity of 12-16 jets per year, delivering the remaining 126 in 8 years.



Your numbers for Rafale is acceptable. But your numbers for Tejas is all over the place.

So if we don't consider your tribal math for Tejas, we will have all the Rafales for IAF and IN, only 160 LCAs in 10 years. That's a grand total of 340 jets. Now what about the remaining 210 jets? My numbers have not changed at all, even after you calculated it yourself.

I told you, we need to produce 55 jets a year.

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## BON PLAN

Ankit Kumar said:


> And again , 150 million USD , I get Gripen E/F with Israel AESA ( or any other , but not Italian )


No other radar than the Raven ES05 Selex one is on the drawing board for Gripen. And you can't change of radar as you change a wheel on a car.
So for a very long time, Gripen E will be sold with this radar and only this one.



W@rwolf said:


> (Take the radar out of the nose and apply it to the fuselage?? Really?)


I think RANDOM RADIO was speaking about conformal antennae on the two sides of the Rafale. 
I don't think the nose radar will vanished. But will be complemented by 2 side conformal antennae.
Picdelamirand is far more aware of that.

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## W@rwolf

randomradio said:


> HAL officials have confirmed it. Twin arm for pod and missile.



I haven't seen it yet. Could you send a link?



randomradio said:


> But your numbers for Tejas is all over the place.



You didn't understand my break-up.
HAL+MII -> two production lines churning out 32 jets per year.


----------



## BON PLAN

C130 said:


> 36 Rafale for 8.9 billion euros
> 36 ASH for $2.5 billion
> 
> don't see how that's even remotely close in cost.


And you think it's with the same support and ToT and ... ???


----------



## W@rwolf

BON PLAN said:


> I think RANDOM RADIO was speaking about conformal antennae on the two sides of the Rafale.
> I don't think the nose radar will vanished. But will be complemented by 2 side conformal antennae.
> Picdelamirand is far more aware of that.



I went through some documents again. What Thales/Dassault is suggesting is that the GaN modules can be miniaturized thereby using them to integrate arrays spread over the surface of the airframe (front, conformal, wings, rear etc) to give a 360deg view without any blind spots (Interestingly what IAF want in the FGFA)



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Even more futuristic, but also possible: replacing existing radar nose antenna by conformal ones, smart "skins" that could be easily spread over the cell combining radar, jamming, communications and other purposes ...


The Rafale hidden beauties and its future


----------



## BON PLAN

C130 said:


> ASH will be about $70 million each, including weapons,training, service


  stop dreaming Bro.


----------



## C130

BON PLAN said:


> stop dreaming Bro.



it's true


----------



## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> No other radar than the Raven ES05 Selex one is on the drawing board for Gripen. And you can't change of radar as you change a wheel on a car.
> So for a very long time, Gripen E will be sold with this radar and only this one.



Selex has been banned.

Anyway, the way I see it, we will first choose a jet by 2017, and the entire contract process will take a year more, then production will start a year later. So there's a lot of time for Gripen to enter production.

Dassault may deliver the first Rafale MII only after 2019, Gripen may come in after 2020 or 2021. That's 6 years away. There's no way the other competitors can deliver their jets before 2020.


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## Taygibay

Reality check on a random train of thoughts :

What radar the Gripen now uses ( as of June 2016 ) :






​What is coming for it ( Selex AESA Raven 05 ) :





​What GaN based radar SAAB is actually selling ( Giraffe 4-8 ) :



http://saab.com/land/istar/multi-role-surveillance-system/giraffe-4a/


*SO ...
*
... with a couple buddies, we shared brewskis trying to see how the latter would fit on the former ...
but even once fully plastered, we did not find it credible for a second and had to dismiss it.​
Only in a confused mind could this be the result :




​
Of course, on paper it made sense?







​

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## randomradio

W@rwolf said:


> I haven't seen it yet. Could you send a link?



http://www.business-standard.com/ar...k-turnaround-in-new-tejas-115102701594_1.html



> You didn't understand my break-up.
> HAL+MII -> two production lines churning out 32 jets per year.



That's even more ingenious. Then IAF will only purchase a lot of Mk1As because Mk2 will start coming in only after 2023 or 2024. If a private company is to set up a competing line, then even they need an order for 120 jets. IAF is not stupid enough to order the Mk1A in such large quantities.

And today there is no private company in India that can build a supply chain and deliver a jet from scratch, that's the purpose of the import JVs. The private companies cannot rely completely on HAL's expertise because HAL will be a direct competitor. HAL wants Parrikar to cancel the Rafale deal and order 300 LCAs by boosting production to 24 per year. There is no way HAL will allow the LCA to fall in the hands of a private company.

HAL wants to deliver all the LCAs to the armed forces and also to the export market. That's not going to change anytime soon.

Come on dude, start making sense. You and @Taygibay think the Indian aerospace industry that's not built a single jet on its own over the last 30 years will suddenly start churning jets out by the dozens every year? We will be lucky to manage 16 jets a year by HAL alone. We haven't even completely managed 16 MKIs a year with Sukhoi. The private industry has to build up its manpower from scratch, it has no chance of lasting against HAL's monopoly without help from foreign OEMs. A handful have only recently built up their capacities as Tier 1 subcontractors with OEM assistance. The Chinese have taken over 20 years and a lot of stealing to get to where they are today. We want to do that in 10.



W@rwolf said:


> I went through some documents again. What Thales/Dassault is suggesting is that the GaN modules can be miniaturized thereby using them to integrate arrays spread over the surface of the airframe (front, conformal, wings, rear etc) to give a 360deg view without any blind spots (Interestingly what IAF want in the FGFA)



It's not clear if we will go for this configuration.


----------



## Stephen Cohen

@randomradio 

Mate ; Any news about Rafale deal


----------



## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Reality check on a random train of thoughts :
> 
> What radar the Gripen now uses ( as of June 2016 ) :
> View attachment 313834
> ​What is coming for it ( Selex AESA Raven 05 ) :
> 
> View attachment 313835
> ​What GaN based radar SAAB is actually selling ( Giraffe 4-8 ) :
> 
> View attachment 313836​http://saab.com/land/istar/multi-role-surveillance-system/giraffe-4a/
> 
> *SO ...
> *​... with a couple buddies, we shared brewskis trying to see how the latter would fit on the former ...
> bu even fully plastered, we did not find it credible for a second and had to dismiss it.
> 
> Only in a confused mind could this be the result :
> 
> View attachment 313838​
> Of course, on paper it made sense?
> View attachment 313837
> 
> 
> ​



Read this
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-262#post-8415816



Stephen Cohen said:


> @randomradio
> 
> Mate ; Any news about Rafale deal



It's with Parrikar apparently.


----------



## PARIKRAMA

Some small snippets


Rafale deal final price file note pending with DM MP.
Internally MP note once forwarded will lead to 4-6 weeks more time before CCS will look into the approval and signing part of the contract. So July end to Aug middle or till August end seems more plausible option.
Among the other news
F16 line transfer is the most legitimate offer from USA side but DM MP not impressed.
In the words of DM MP it's a generation old technology and experts have suggested that it's running in lifeline of tech upgrades with no long term future prospects.
The same experts opined that instead of a fleet of 160 F16 India can very well buy 4 squadrons of F35 or 60 odd F35s as they will do more than enough instead of F16s. But such a small number won't give any kind of MII benefit at all.
The latest offer from Boeing does not have make in India plan. Instead it plans to build parts of the F18 in TASL like doing the work of Apache in TASL facility. This way Boeing has pitched in a deal for 80 jets directly supplied from USA. Boeing has assured delivery at the rate of 24+ jets a year and the whole delivery of the order in max 5 years with delivery starting from 1.5years of contract signing.
Again DM MP not impressed.
The much publicised campaign of Gripen E is also going nowhere. The blacklisting of Finmeccanica and replacement of its products by Israeli is going no place. The Saab has requested a last week of July date for submitting a new offer with such issues being sorted.
Saab has pitched Gripen E as LCA Mk2 and is saying technological know how can flow into Mk1A.
DM MP not impressed.
Eric Trappier has sent a verbal communication via some official (rumoured to be french ambassador) with careful words saying Dassault geared up for tranche 1 order of 90 jets. DM MP has reverted back that Dassault needs to give more under packaged deal and take not just tranche 1 but all 5 tranches.
A good news is F21 heavy water torpedo won't require major modifications in scorpene and Arihant. The modification will be very minor in nature.

FGFA internal date is now 2026 and beyond. A proposal to evaluate PAKFA is planned in 2020-21. If it meets the evaluation and if IAF agrees, between 2022-27 in 5 years a total of 100 PAKFA may be planned as a back up in case MII portions are delayed.
LCA review and status of progress in coming weeks.MP is seriously contemplating a private line under MII. Lead names - L&T, Tata Aero and Reliance Defence. Mahindra aerospace may also make the cut for evaluation. Serious names being L&T and TASLwith L&T as front runner.

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## W@rwolf

randomradio said:


> That's even more ingenious. Then IAF will only purchase a lot of Mk1As because Mk2 will start coming in only after 2023 or 2024. If a private company is to set up a competing line, then even they need an order for 120 jets. IAF is not stupid enough to order the Mk1A in such large quantities.
> 
> And today there is no private company in India that can build a supply chain and deliver a jet from scratch, that's the purpose of the import JVs. The private companies cannot rely completely on HAL's expertise because HAL will be a direct competitor. HAL wants Parrikar to cancel the Rafale deal and order 300 LCAs by boosting production to 24 per year. There is no way HAL will allow the LCA to fall in the hands of a private company.
> 
> HAL wants to deliver all the LCAs to the armed forces and also to the export market. That's not going to change anytime soon.
> 
> Come on dude, start making sense. You and @Taygibay think the Indian aerospace industry that's not built a single jet on its own over the last 30 years will suddenly start churning jets out by the dozens every year? We will be lucky to manage 16 jets a year by HAL alone. We haven't even completely managed 16 MKIs a year with Sukhoi. The private industry has to build up its manpower from scratch, it has no chance of lasting against HAL's monopoly without help from foreign OEMs. A handful have only recently built up their capacities as Tier 1 subcontractors with OEM assistance. The Chinese have taken over 20 years and a lot of stealing to get to where they are today. We want to do that in 10.



Competing lines? What are you taking about? The private company's production line is not competing with HAL's line, rather augmenting it such that more jets can be delivered per year. Also its not HAL's decision whether to hand over part of the production of Tejas to pvt players, its MoD.
If it is decided, then HAL will have no choice but to help the company set up a parallel production line. As i said earlier, HAL wont have any revenue losses because of this, since they'll be upto their necks with other projects.

The total order for Tejas would be 337 jets.
Tejas Mk-1 = 20+20
Tejas Mk-1A = 108
Tejas Mk-2 = 144
NLCA Mk-2 = 45

After Mk-1 production ends in 2019, Mk-1A production will begin.






This is one possibility of the production schedule.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> Eric Trappier has sent a verbal communication via some official (rumoured to be french ambassador) with careful words saying Dassault geared up for tranche 1 order of 90 jets. DM MP has reverted back that Dassault needs to give more under packaged deal and take not just tranche 1 but all 5 tranches.


5 Tranches? 
That's 90*5=450? 
How does this comply with a second MMRCA and with a single engine new fighter?

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## [Bregs]

PARIKRAMA said:


> Some small snippets
> 
> 
> Rafale deal final price file note pending with DM MP.
> Internally MP note once forwarded will lead to 4-6 weeks more time before CCS will look into the approval and signing part of the contract. So July end to Aug middle or till August end seems more plausible option.
> Among the other news
> F16 line transfer is the most legitimate offer from USA side but DM MP not impressed.
> In the words of DM MP it's a generation old technology and experts have suggested that it's running in lifeline of tech upgrades with no long term future prospects.
> The same experts opined that instead of a fleet of 160 F16 India can very well buy 4 squadrons of F35 or 60 odd F35s as they will do more than enough instead of F16s. But such a small number won't give any kind of MII benefit at all.
> The latest offer from Boeing does not have make in India plan. Instead it plans to build parts of the F18 in TASL like doing the work of Apache in TASL facility. This way Boeing has pitched in a deal for 80 jets directly supplied from USA. Boeing has assured delivery at the rate of 24+ jets a year and the whole delivery of the order in max 5 years with delivery starting from 1.5years of contract signing.
> Again DM MP not impressed.
> The much publicised campaign of Gripen E is also going nowhere. The blacklisting of Finmeccanica and replacement of its products by Israeli is going no place. The Saab has requested a last week of July date for submitting a new offer with such issues being sorted.
> Saab has pitched Gripen E as LCA Mk2 and is saying technological know how can flow into Mk1A.
> DM MP not impressed.
> Eric Trappier has sent a verbal communication via some official (rumoured to be french ambassador) with careful words saying Dassault geared up for tranche 1 order of 90 jets. DM MP has reverted back that Dassault needs to give more under packaged deal and take not just tranche 1 but all 5 tranches.
> A good news is F21 heavy water torpedo won't require major modifications in scorpene and Arihant. The modification will be very minor in nature.
> 
> FGFA internal date is now 2026 and beyond. A proposal to evaluate PAKFA is planned in 2020-21. If it meets the evaluation and if IAF agrees, between 2022-27 in 5 years a total of 100 PAKFA may be planned as a back up in case MII portions are delayed.
> LCA review and status of progress in coming weeks.MP is seriously contemplating a private line under MII. Lead names - L&T, Tata Aero and Reliance Defence. Mahindra aerospace may also make the cut for evaluation. Serious names being L&T and TASLwith L&T as front runner.



some interesting news but still rafale deal is uncertain when it will be signed because price is still not decided as DM asking for more attractive package ?

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## Taygibay

PARIKRAMA said:


> DM MP has reverted back that Dassault needs to give more under packaged deal and take not just tranche 1 but all 5 tranches.



That's one of the most credible rumour in a while!
It would be advantageous for your DM as he signs the first order to force
Dassault to go all in and extending those tranches we had talked about
provides maximum leverage which would work for the Élysée too BTW!

If true, it's a proper poker play for once; let's see where it goes.

And good day all, Tay.

@Picdelamirand-oil

Those are the tranches you are wondering about :


PARIKRAMA said:


> subs - SSN and NG SSBN
> 
> Next Gen bcz present Arihant class of 3 subs are baby boomers..The next one will sport 12-16 VLS silos with the real deal of 12m length 2m width, 1 tonne warhead with 3 MIRV (200kt 270kg each) + possibly 2-3 Dummies in a flower shape.
> Thats also the one which will sport the Brahmos NG LACM/AShM fired from torpedo tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats the idea quicker induction.
> 
> 
> +++
> 
> tagging @Abingdonboy too
> 
> Vstol says Rafale M may be there in IAC1. If it happens then surely 42-45 will be ordered from merignac as IAC1 will come by Dec 06,2019..
> 
> so effectively in Merignac - 36+18+ 27 (45-18) = 81 or may be fully 36+18+45 = 99
> 
> thus there should not be any surprise here..
> 
> If Merignac gets 100 jets, then multiply it with 3+ minimum and Indian line will get 300+ jets....
> 
> simply
> IAC1 45 (30 jets on deck)
> IAC1 follow on - 2 nos - (36 jets on deck) - 100
> IAC2 - 1 numbers - 54 jets
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Rafale M market - 45+100+54 - 199
> Merignac line for Rafale M - 45+18 = 63
> Indian Line for Rafale M= 136 Jets
> 
> IAF need 190 jets
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> Indian line potential - 326 jets
> 
> I am not considering IAC2 second ship but if such a ship is constructed parallely add another 54 jets either in Merignac or in India Or it may sport AMCA also if its not a parallel construction.
> 
> The important factor is the cost part when such a deal works out over time and how much localisation actually brings in benefits to MIC, skill development and cost reduction..




https://defence.pk/threads/dassault-rafale-tender-news-discussions-thread-2.351407/page-196
... and ensuing posts oeuf corse, Tay.

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## BON PLAN

C130 said:


> it's true


prove it !


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## C130

BON PLAN said:


> prove it !


http://www.bga-aeroweb.com/Defense/F-18-Super-Hornet.html

USN bought 37 F/A 18 E/F in 2013 for $2.57 billion/37=$69 million each, but I read ASH mod would tack another 10% to 15% so that's about $8.5 million more to the cost so $77.5 million flyaway cost


http://aviationweek.com/defense/boeing-faces-march-decision-fa-18-ef-ea-18g

Boeing is currently producing 48 of the aircraft annually, with its portion at a flyaway cost of $37 million, Gibbons says. This excludes the price of two General Electric engines and electric warfare systems, both of which are government-furnished equipment. The total flyaway cost for a Super Hornet is roughly $50 million, he says. The Growler, which includes jammers and specialized avionics, costs about $9 million more per jet, he adds. The fiscal year 2014 budget request, yet to be enacted by Congress, requests enough aircraft to reduce that rate to 36 annually.


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## Spectre

Taygibay said:


> That's one of the most credible rumour in a while!
> It would be advantageous for your DM as he signs the first order to force
> Dassault to go all in and extending those tranches we had talked about
> provides maximum leverage which would work for the Élysée too BTW!
> 
> If true, it's a proper poker play for once; let's see where it goes.
> 
> And good day all, Tay.
> 
> @Picdelamirand-oil
> 
> Those are the tranches you are wondering about :
> 
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault-rafale-tender-news-discussions-thread-2.351407/page-196
> ... and ensuing posts oeuf corse, Tay.



Nonsense Mon'amie. Couple of things in public domain and few in private one which negates this "rumeurs"

- Defense Budget allotments do not support this optimisitic projections unless there is a manifold percentage point increase which is unlikely due to the internal political situation such as major elections in '17. 18 and '19 which would would compel the Union Govt to dish out populist soaps and like. Infact the current budget was the best time politically speaking but the Govt shyed out and diverted money to Social Welfare schemes

- Package deal would require an Indian "agency" None except HAL are equipped financially or technologically to fill that role because of complete lack of skilled manpower and *end to end* aero-space fabrication and manufacturing experience. All this will make technological absorption impossible. HAL is not going to work out with DA - made clear in MMRCA. TATAs and L&Ts are competent sub system fabricators but would take atleast a decade to even get upto HAL level.

- Stronger alternative proposals from other vendors which would somehow mitigate the earlier problems. Deal by Americans is to establish a fully owned subsidiary in India which would assume all the risks and further do incremental transfers to HAL from Day Zero. Meanwhile stocks would be transferred to make up for the immediate shortage. The transferred stocks are transferred free or at nominal cost with only training, maintenance and support to be paid for.

- Push is there to close the 36, DA is for good or bad is in competition for the MII portion.* There will not be two foreign MII firms. *DA is not offering a cost effective solution and ancillary benefits as earlier expected when it comes to Naval technology and does not have credible options in UAV/UCAV which others are offering.

@PARIKRAMA Congrats on the new HAT!

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## Agent_47

PARIKRAMA said:


> Again DM MP not impressed.








@PARIKRAMA for the life of me i don't understand why we need more imported aircrafts. Considering + 90 rafale is fixed and LCA mk1(120) + mk2 (140) is good enough to fill remaining gap in the 42 sqd. Why do we need SH,F16 or Gripen. Why are we even thinking about it ?

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## Taygibay

No E at ami please, I could take offense old-school style!



Spectre said:


> Package deal would require an Indian "agency" None except HAL are equipped financially or technologically to fill that role because of complete lack of skilled manpower and *end to end* aero-space fabrication and manufacturing experience. All this will make technological absorption impossible.


No, Éric Trappier explained in details that each OEM of the Rafale GIE able and willing to outsource 
would build their own industrials link & JVs to achieve that goal.
We are not talking about exporting the line as one whole here.

In essence, the 250 people strong composite/nanomaterial parts maker
could set up shop in india to produce your Rafale bits. To build around a
core of 10 French guys, he'll hire 90 Indians.
And he'll train them fully as he did with his French peeps back in France!

Because here's the fun part, when an engineer or doctor comes out of school
he or she is still years from being top notch on the terrain. In high tech industries,
job providers like adaptable youngsters yet unspecialized that grow on the job.

And not being racist, I refuse to admit to a reason why Indians would not do as
well as any other!



Spectre said:


> Stronger alternative proposals from other vendors



LOL, name one?

Have a great day mate, Tay.

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## randomradio

W@rwolf said:


> Competing lines? What are you taking about? The private company's production line is not competing with HAL's line, rather augmenting it such that more jets can be delivered per year. Also its not HAL's decision whether to hand over part of the production of Tejas to pvt players, its MoD.



No, it's not HAL's decision. But HAL has way too much power.



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> 5 Tranches?
> That's 90*5=450?
> How does this comply with a second MMRCA and with a single engine new fighter?



I believe 300+ jets. That's the best case scenario.

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## Spectre

Taygibay said:


> And not being racist, I refuse to admit to a reason why Indians would not do as
> well as any other!
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, name one?
> 
> Have a great day mate, Tay.



R word is a heavy one to use and I didn't certainly intend to imply some racial inferiority but when it comes down it there is still a gulf which needs to be bridged. Indians in IT and Finance have shown to themselves to be top level managers but somehow back home we seem to be dragged down by the sludge of bureaucracy, corruption and lethargy. So the factors are not genetic but enviornmental in my opinion. Anyway what do I know! may be it will work out and DA will bring in a high tech revolution in Indian Defense Industry or just may be India will bring DA down to it's level.

Either way it is uncertain..

As for naming one alternative - we are treading the much trodden grounds here - I ll say F-16->F35 and either you or @PARIKRAMA or @Abingdonboy will come up with counters which I will then again counter. So I ll skip right to end of it and say - Yeah Rafale is the king of the hill at the moment but the benefit of going with LM is two fold

You get a competent jet ASAP without the scheduling problems facing DA with expanded order book. US transfers upgraded F-16s to India in interim and India gets an option to get it hands on true blue next gen jets with a much broader developmental path and much needed stealth tech which Russia failed to provide.

India right now lacks firepower to deliver the pain to neighbors cross the Himalayas but with F-35s we might just do that as there is still no hard counter to well network squadrons of F-35s, F-16s.

Second benefit is that I am assured that a commitment here will get us access to restricted goodies such as Avengers, carrier technology which will synergise well with F-35 C and real collaboration in developing indigenous jet engines. Then there is US->Israel->India angle in case of strategic defence articles like WMD shields.

Then there is geo-strategic factors at play and France is a neutral party where as US is sufficiently motivated to help us. So in a nutshell it is a "Khichdhi" translated as "broth or soup" of factors which come together to push for secondary alternatives.

P.S. Before reading me the riot act - note that I have more or less conceded that on a stand alone basis Rafale is great and probably *the *option but when we look through broader lenses things ironically get a lot fuzzier.

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## randomradio

Spectre said:


> India right now lacks firepower to deliver the pain to neighbors cross the Himalayas but with F-35s we might just do that as there is still no hard counter to well network squadrons of F-35s, F-16s.



The only operational western jets that can deliver the pain across the Himalayas today are the Rafale and the Raptor. No other jet. If we can't fly above Chinese lands, we can't win.

The F-35 should eventually do that only after 2021.
http://www.defensetech.org/2014/04/16/pentagon-develops-f-35s-4th-generation-software/


> A big part of the developmental calculus for Block 4 is to work on the kinds of enemy air defense systems and weaponry the aircraft may face from the 2020’s through the 2040’s and beyond.



And even if the IAF orders F-35s today, we won't be getting those jets until 2025 or later because of the delays and order backlog. By then the F-35 is going to be pointless because of the FGFA and AMCA.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Some small snippets
> 
> 
> Rafale deal final price file note pending with DM MP.
> Internally MP note once forwarded will lead to 4-6 weeks more time before CCS will look into the approval and signing part of the contract. So July end to Aug middle or till August end seems more plausible option.
> Among the other news
> F16 line transfer is the most legitimate offer from USA side but DM MP not impressed.
> In the words of DM MP it's a generation old technology and experts have suggested that it's running in lifeline of tech upgrades with no long term future prospects.
> The same experts opined that instead of a fleet of 160 F16 India can very well buy 4 squadrons of F35 or 60 odd F35s as they will do more than enough instead of F16s. But such a small number won't give any kind of MII benefit at all.
> The latest offer from Boeing does not have make in India plan. Instead it plans to build parts of the F18 in TASL like doing the work of Apache in TASL facility. This way Boeing has pitched in a deal for 80 jets directly supplied from USA. Boeing has assured delivery at the rate of 24+ jets a year and the whole delivery of the order in max 5 years with delivery starting from 1.5years of contract signing.
> Again DM MP not impressed.
> The much publicised campaign of Gripen E is also going nowhere. The blacklisting of Finmeccanica and replacement of its products by Israeli is going no place. The Saab has requested a last week of July date for submitting a new offer with such issues being sorted.
> Saab has pitched Gripen E as LCA Mk2 and is saying technological know how can flow into Mk1A.
> DM MP not impressed.
> Eric Trappier has sent a verbal communication via some official (rumoured to be french ambassador) with careful words saying Dassault geared up for tranche 1 order of 90 jets. DM MP has reverted back that Dassault needs to give more under packaged deal and take not just tranche 1 but all 5 tranches.
> A good news is F21 heavy water torpedo won't require major modifications in scorpene and Arihant. The modification will be very minor in nature.
> 
> FGFA internal date is now 2026 and beyond. A proposal to evaluate PAKFA is planned in 2020-21. If it meets the evaluation and if IAF agrees, between 2022-27 in 5 years a total of 100 PAKFA may be planned as a back up in case MII portions are delayed.
> LCA review and status of progress in coming weeks.MP is seriously contemplating a private line under MII. Lead names - L&T, Tata Aero and Reliance Defence. Mahindra aerospace may also make the cut for evaluation. Serious names being L&T and TASLwith L&T as front runner.


What games is MP playing here brother?

First he said a matter of weeks in March, then he assured contract finalisation in June and now it is being pushed back until the end of August? Does MP realise the dangerous game he is playing? He is showing no sense of urgency at all and thusly failing in his duty as the defence minister of India. 

@PARIKRAMA bro is there any insight into the Off the shelf delivery schedule? I believe it had been stated that a early 2016 signature would ensure 2018 deliveries but if the Egyptians are about to place a follow on order and pip the IAF then India is going to lose out and ultimately the very objective of addressing the urgent needs of the IAF will be undermined. 


+ many congrats on your new title bro, fully deserved; you should have been given it a long long time ago IMHO.

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## randomradio

@W@rwolf @Taygibay

I hope this clears all your silly doubts.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...be-built-by-private-sector/article8248084.ece


> Officially throwing open the contest for fighter aircraft once again, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said that India will select *one or two fighter aircraft* which will be manufactured locally by a private company under Make in India initiative. *This is in addition to the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA),* the production of which is being scaled up.
> 
> India and France are in advanced stage of talks to conclude an inter-governmental agreement for the direct purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets. *This fighter aircraft will likely be other than the Rafale.*



Do you understand what's happening now?

This is all the way back from April 2015.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...o-replace-mig-21-parrikar-115041500007_1.html


> "Rafale is not a replacement for MiG-21. LCA Tejas is a replacement for MiG-21. *Or, if we build some other fighter under 'Make in India', that is also possible.* *If we build another single engine [fighter] in India, which is possible,* that could be a replacement for the MiG-21", said Parrikar.



Get it?

This plan has been in the making since years now. This is apart from the Rafales. This single engine program has always depended on the success or failure of the LCA program.

So a total of possibly 2 or 3 fighter jet projects.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...er-make-in-india-parrikar-116061800668_1.html


> "We are in the process of putting up 2 to 3 different projects in Make in India in aerospace sector which will require environment creation and skilled manpower," he said.



Parrikar has pushed the MII to next year just so he can be sure about the progress of the LCA program. There is still a bit of uncertainty there.

And if you lot don't believe Parrikar, then how about AM Raha?
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/fighter-aircrafts-make-in-india-iaf/


> “We are likely to get the Rafael soon… The government will also be inducting LCA in very large numbers — close to 120 as of now… They are also thinking of setting up one more line of fighter aircrafts in India under the Make in India project, so that the dwindling fighter aircraft force can be replaced at the shortest possible time. It is going to mature in a year,” Raha added.



This should irrefutably end the silly discussion.

We have to replace 21 squadrons, that's 400-440 aircraft. Right now we are committed to about 14 squadrons, 6 Rafale and 8 LCA, total of 270. We are short of 7 squadrons, 140+. That's where the second program will come up. In the meantime, IAF will rotate 50 operational aircraft to make new squadrons in order to make up for 54 aircraft that were phased out last year. Let's not talk about attrition.



Abingdonboy said:


> What games is MP playing here brother?
> 
> First he said a matter of weeks in March, then he assured contract finalisation in June and now it is being pushed back until the end of August? Does MP realise the dangerous game he is playing? He is showing no sense of urgency at all and thusly failing in his duty as the defence minister of India.



The negotiations are complete. So it's almost done. At least we know it is in the procedural stage now.

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## BON PLAN

C130 said:


> USN bought 37 F/A 18 E/F in 2013 for $2.57 billion/37=$69 million each, but I read ASH mod would tack another 10% to 15% so that's about $8.5 million more to the cost so $77.5 million flyaway cost


It is what I called a "dry" price. ie without support and base accomodations as SH is already in the navy since years.... all is already made or installed as shelters, tools, bench, procedures....


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## PARIKRAMA

@Picdelamirand-oil @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @zebra7 @BON PLAN @randomradio 
@W@rwolf
@GURU DUTT @Stephen Cohen @Spectre 

Today morning I had a discussion again with my source.. he has confirmed the 3 proposals as of now which is more or less confirmed


Rafale MII and probably the only twin jet MMRCA under consideration. The overall contour of the deal remains in the massive 300+ numbers due to IAF itself requesting for 200+ standalone and IN need pegged at approx 144. Again it will be a mix of Merignac and Indian line fulfilling orders.
A private line for LCA and a plan for MK1A and MK2.
Weaponsied Hawk with BAE especially now as UK and India will sign a free trade agreement and a host if bilateral stuff within next 12-18 months for internal safekeeping and assuring UK economy. A side prospect pushed was weaponsied HTT40 but hawk is more preferred.
The strongest contender as I said earlier outside the planned 3 is still F16 toF35 upgrade route. But India is planning for a total of 100+ US drones from General Atomics for q mix of all services needs. So LM F16 may not see the light of the day. In the meantime a order of 4 sqda of F35 may be purchased but not now.

Boeing ASH is not favoured by IAF or IN and the scope of work via offseta through TASL is not agreeable to India. The route is suggested by Boeing to avoid Senate issue but it's not going anywhere.

Gripen E is still not given a serious thinking. In the words of Arup Raha who after taking a back seat ride has commented that Gripen E in a proper matured platform with all due certifications is 5-6 years away. With the price tag and time required for fulfilling our IAF needs, IAF will prefer LCA MK1A and will like only Rafale to be the imported and make in India project.

This has impressed DM MP a lot who has now found support from IAF for LCA project. On July1 with induction of LCA 1st squadron expect a slew of announcement to boost LCA project.

Rest all in media is speculations. Including the cost part.

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Picdelamirand-oil @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @zebra7 @BON PLAN @randomradio
> @W@rwolf
> @GURU DUTT @Stephen Cohen @Spectre
> 
> Today morning I had a discussion again with my source.. he has confirmed the 3 proposals as of now which is more or less confirmed
> 
> 
> Rafale MII and probably the only twin jet MMRCA under consideration. The overall contour of the deal remains in the massive 300+ numbers due to IAF itself requesting for 200+ standalone and IN need pegged at approx 144. Again it will be a mix of Merignac and Indian line fulfilling orders.
> A private line for LCA and a plan for MK1A and MK2.
> Weaponsied Hawk with BAE especially now as UK and India will sign a free trade agreement and a host if bilateral stuff within next 12-18 months for internal safekeeping and assuring UK economy. A side prospect pushed was weaponsied HTT40 but hawk is more preferred.
> The strongest contender as I said earlier outside the planned 3 is still F16 toF35 upgrade route. But India is planning for a total of 100+ US drones from General Atomics for q mix of all services needs. So LM F16 may not see the light of the day. In the meantime a order of 4 sqda of F35 may be purchased but not now.
> 
> Boeing ASH is not favoured by IAF or IN and the scope of work via offseta through TASL is not agreeable to India. The route is suggested by Boeing to avoid Senate issue but it's not going anywhere.
> 
> Gripen E is still not given a serious thinking. In the words of Arup Raha who after taking a back seat ride has commented that Gripen E in a proper matured platform with all due certifications is 5-6 years away. With the price tag and time required for fulfilling our IAF needs, IAF will prefer LCA MK1A and will like only Rafale to be the imported and make in India project.
> 
> This has impressed DM MP a lot who has now found support from IAF for LCA project. On July1 with induction of LCA 1st squadron expect a slew of announcement to boost LCA project.
> 
> Rest all in media is speculations. Including the cost part.



SO Is the AESA for MK 1 A Finalised

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> I hope this clears all your silly doubts.





randomradio said:


> This should irrefutably end the silly discussion.





randomradio said:


> Do you understand what's happening now?



Oh, yes, I understand that your article is from April and says :
"Under the Make in India process *we may have one or two more jet fighter plants* in India *by the private sector*,” Mr. Parrikar said ..."

More plants does not necessarily mean different fighters. Same thing as more lines.

I also understand that you are unbearably full of yourself calling others silly twice ...
so that I'll refer again to your pretense about the SAAB GaN AESA that you thought
was coming with a Grr line when in fact it is this :
http://saab.com/land/istar/multi-role-surveillance-system/giraffe-4a/
and won't fit on Gripen.




​As said in my post #3931.

I understand that you are a smug arrogant person who comes back with calls of silly-ness
to others after having been demonstrably proven wrong!
I understand that you have a pathological inability to distinguish reality as your ego is in the way.

I also understand that making such crass, false and disrespectful calls is safer on Internet.

Cowardly but good for you, no doubt, Tay.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Stephen Cohen said:


> SO Is the AESA for MK 1 A Finalised


If you want an AESA for LCA Mk 1A you can take RBE2 AA.

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## GURU DUTT

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Picdelamirand-oil @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @zebra7 @BON PLAN @randomradio
> @W@rwolf
> @GURU DUTT @Stephen Cohen @Spectre
> 
> Today morning I had a discussion again with my source.. he has confirmed the 3 proposals as of now which is more or less confirmed
> 
> 
> Rafale MII and probably the only twin jet MMRCA under consideration. The overall contour of the deal remains in the massive 300+ numbers due to IAF itself requesting for 200+ standalone and IN need pegged at approx 144. Again it will be a mix of Merignac and Indian line fulfilling orders.
> A private line for LCA and a plan for MK1A and MK2.
> Weaponsied Hawk with BAE especially now as UK and India will sign a free trade agreement and a host if bilateral stuff within next 12-18 months for internal safekeeping and assuring UK economy. A side prospect pushed was weaponsied HTT40 but hawk is more preferred.
> The strongest contender as I said earlier outside the planned 3 is still F16 toF35 upgrade route. But India is planning for a total of 100+ US drones from General Atomics for q mix of all services needs. So LM F16 may not see the light of the day. In the meantime a order of 4 sqda of F35 may be purchased but not now.
> 
> Boeing ASH is not favoured by IAF or IN and the scope of work via offseta through TASL is not agreeable to India. The route is suggested by Boeing to avoid Senate issue but it's not going anywhere.
> 
> Gripen E is still not given a serious thinking. In the words of Arup Raha who after taking a back seat ride has commented that Gripen E in a proper matured platform with all due certifications is 5-6 years away. With the price tag and time required for fulfilling our IAF needs, IAF will prefer LCA MK1A and will like only Rafale to be the imported and make in India project.
> 
> This has impressed DM MP a lot who has now found support from IAF for LCA project. On July1 with induction of LCA 1st squadron expect a slew of announcement to boost LCA project.
> 
> Rest all in media is speculations. Including the cost part.


now thats quite close to what even i heared but only diffrence in all that was instead of going for a US fighter .... AKA F16V or ASH IAF plans a 100+ UCAVs from USA which i say more bang for the money and save money and training costs as for F35 in IAF well that might be not possible but surely IN AF wants a couple of squads of F35C for sure apart from 36 to 54 Rafale M but who knows and if all goes well we might see latest version of EL2052 AESA on LCA MK1A and possibally a american internal IRST or a pod version



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> If you want an AESA for LCA Mk 1A you can take RBE2 AA.


thats a Great idea aswell but at what cost i mean with EL2052 we dont need any extra work for intigrating Python5 and Derby and the LITENING LDP but we have quite a work if we go for RB2AA for MK1A....waise whats the market price od EL-2052 and RBE2AA ?

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## C130

BON PLAN said:


> It is what I called a "dry" price. ie without support and base accomodations as SH is already in the navy since years.... all is already made or installed as shelters, tools, bench, procedures....




yes I know that , that's why I am saying each will be about $120 million compared to Rafales $250 million each

36 ASH=$4.3 billion 
36 Rafale=$9 billion

and Dassualt actually wanted $12 billion at first too, so about $325 each, this is including the plane,shelters,spares,training, weapons etc etc


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## 21 Dec 2012

There is absolutely no way that India will be allowed to operate F-35 and PAK-FA together. You're gonna have to choose one of the two.

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## GURU DUTT

C130 said:


> yes I know that , that's why I am saying each will be about $120 million compared to Rafales $250 million each
> 
> 36 ASH=$4.3 billion
> 36 Rafale=$9 billion
> 
> and Dassualt actually wanted $12 billion at first too, so about $325 each, this is including the plane,shelters,spares,training, weapons etc etc


ASH is in no way 120million with spares , service training and weapons(life cycle cost) its somewhere between 150-180 millon dollars and i gues it dont have things like SPECTRA and internal IRST sensor and can carry load not more than 7.5 tonne externally and has a lesser range even with CFT than rafale on internal fuel only ... i maybe wrong can some one tell it in detail i mean a comparison chart between ASH and Rafale

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## zebra7

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Picdelamirand-oil @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @zebra7 @BON PLAN @randomradio
> @W@rwolf
> @GURU DUTT @Stephen Cohen @Spectre
> 
> Today morning I had a discussion again with my source.. he has confirmed the 3 proposals as of now which is more or less confirmed
> 
> 
> Rafale MII and probably the only twin jet MMRCA under consideration. The overall contour of the deal remains in the massive 300+ numbers due to IAF itself requesting for 200+ standalone and IN need pegged at approx 144. Again it will be a mix of Merignac and Indian line fulfilling orders.
> A private line for LCA and a plan for MK1A and MK2.
> Weaponsied Hawk with BAE especially now as UK and India will sign a free trade agreement and a host if bilateral stuff within next 12-18 months for internal safekeeping and assuring UK economy. A side prospect pushed was weaponsied HTT40 but hawk is more preferred.
> The strongest contender as I said earlier outside the planned 3 is still F16 toF35 upgrade route. But India is planning for a total of 100+ US drones from General Atomics for q mix of all services needs. So LM F16 may not see the light of the day. In the meantime a order of 4 sqda of F35 may be purchased but not now.
> 
> Boeing ASH is not favoured by IAF or IN and the scope of work via offseta through TASL is not agreeable to India. The route is suggested by Boeing to avoid Senate issue but it's not going anywhere.
> 
> Gripen E is still not given a serious thinking. In the words of Arup Raha who after taking a back seat ride has commented that Gripen E in a proper matured platform with all due certifications is 5-6 years away. With the price tag and time required for fulfilling our IAF needs, IAF will prefer LCA MK1A and will like only Rafale to be the imported and make in India project.
> 
> This has impressed DM MP a lot who has now found support from IAF for LCA project. On July1 with induction of LCA 1st squadron expect a slew of announcement to boost LCA project.
> 
> Rest all in media is speculations. Including the cost part.



Actually going with the Combat Hawk makes sense, to fill the void created after the MIG-21/27 requirement.

There have been the series of article written in the Indian Media, specially from the Delhi Print house, question arises why SAAB office is still open but strangely why members like @randomradio is hell bend to follow the illusion. Just checking the twisted words of statements, and the unknown Senior Naval or Airforce official is more than enough to understand the motive.

As far as U.S F16 and F18 is concerned, IAF is not in favour of US rather French Aircraft even before the MMRCA, due to the familarization of the french bird, and the commonality of the spares, equipment's aka infrastructure and also the weapons. 

@randomradio Did you got the answer of your question which bird will fill the void of MIG-21 replacement. 

As far as UAVs are considered, I think India would go for the US UAVs for the surveillance and Anti submarine operation, and not for the combat role, niether India is going to use for the anti terrorist operation. They will go for the Israeli prop powered UAVs, but will eventually go for the turbo fan powered in a big way -- Ghatak.

@PARIKRAMA -- A question still stands, we have give something to US for the EMALs, could you ask your source about that. In my view, MTA transport fleet could be the key for that.

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## GURU DUTT

21 Dec 2012 said:


> There is absolutely no way that India will be allowed to operate F-35 and PAK-FA together. You're gonna have to choose one of the two.


IAF will never go for F35 but IN sure wants two to three full squads of F35C


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## zebra7

GURU DUTT said:


> ASH is in no way 120million with spares , service training and weapons(life cycle cost) its somewhere between 150-180 millon dollars and i gues it dont have things like SPECTRA and internal IRST sensor and can carry load not more than 7.5 tonne externally and has a lesser range even with CFT than rafale on internal fuel only ... i maybe wrong can some one tell it in detail i mean a comparison chart between ASH and Rafale



LCA tejas MK-1 with infra cost is around 45 Million of 240 crore.


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## GURU DUTT

zebra7 said:


> LCA tejas MK-1 with infra cost is around 45 Million of 240 crore.


you mean LCA MK1 with service , spares , weapons and training cost 1/4th of ASH and almost 1/6th the similar cost of rafale man thats the best way just add a latest AESA and AESA based combined EW-ECM avionick suite and an external jammer pod its almost 1/2 as capable not bad at all


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## C130

GURU DUTT said:


> ASH is in no way 120million with spares , service training and weapons(life cycle cost) its somewhere between 150-180 millon dollars and i gues it dont have things like SPECTRA and internal IRST sensor and can carry load not more than 7.5 tonne externally and has a lesser range even with CFT than rafale on internal fuel only ... i maybe wrong can some one tell it in detail i mean a comparison chart between ASH and Rafale




I didn't calculate life cycle cost since I don't even know what the life cycle cost would be for the ASH, but I believe it would be less than the regular Super Hornet.

the enhance engine is suppose to be more durable and need less maintenance. and time off the aircraft.


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## Taygibay

Zebra my friend, you do not need EMALS.

The development is not finished for one and more importantly,
having even steam catapults will propel India to the podium ...
as only the US and France have CATOBAR carriers ATM period?

Just sayin', Tay.


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## GURU DUTT

C130 said:


> I didn't calculate life cycle cost since I don't even know what the life cycle cost would be for the ASH, but I believe it would be less than the regular Super Hornet.
> 
> the enhance engine is suppose to be more durable and need less maintenance. and time off the aircraft.


ok fair enof what about internal IRST sensor and something like SPECTRA or do you have a comparrison chart of ASH with any of the other current 4.5+ gen fighter jet


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## zebra7

Taygibay said:


> Oh, yes, I understand that your article is from April and says :
> "Under the Make in India process *we may have one or two more jet fighter plants* in India *by the private sector*,” Mr. Parrikar said ..."
> 
> More plants does not necessarily mean different fighters. Same thing as more lines.
> 
> I also understand that you are unbearably full of yourself calling others silly twice ...
> so that I'll refer again to your pretense about the SAAB GaN AESA that you thought
> was coming with a Grr line when in fact it is this :
> http://saab.com/land/istar/multi-role-surveillance-system/giraffe-4a/
> and won't fit on Gripen.
> View attachment 314040
> ​As said in my post #3931.
> 
> I understand that you are a smug arrogant person who comes back with calls of silly-ness
> to others after having been demonstrably proven wrong!
> I understand that you have a pathological inability to distinguish reality as your ego is in the way.
> 
> I also understand that making such crass, false and disrespectful calls is safer on Internet.
> 
> Cowardly but good for you, no doubt, Tay.



C'mon Sir, he is defending the undefendable argument, and the logic of LSA , Cutting edge GaN AESA all comes from the discussion held in another forum IDF, and the various articles produced by the Cutting edge Delhi based defence analysts. 

GaN technology is the technology to produce the T/R modules components, which could be designed to pack in small space. It does not make the Radar Super duper just because it has the GaN modules, rather most of the radars worldwide might be using the components from same OEM, e.g even Russians uses the T/R modules produced by the Canadian firm. But that T/R modules make the Antenna Gimlet part, which could be upgraded latter.
For example EL/M-2032 and EL/M-2052 Aesa radar have the same backend CPU.

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## GURU DUTT

zebra7 said:


> C'mon Sir, he is defending the undefendable argument, and the logic of LSA , Cutting edge GaN AESA all comes from the discussion held in another forum IDF, and the various articles produced by the Cutting edge Delhi based defence analysts.
> 
> GaN technology is the technology to produce the T/R modules components, which could be designed to pack in small space. It does not make the Radar Super duper just because it has the GaN modules, rather most of the radars worldwide might be using the components from same OEM, e.g even Russians uses the T/R modules produced by the Canadian firm. But that T/R modules make the Antenna Gimlet part, which could be upgraded latter.
> For example EL/M-2032 and EL/M-2052 Aesa radar have the same backend CPU.


sirji can you tell me more on the AESA subject like what is the price diffrence between say EL-2052 and RB2AA or the CAPTOR AESA and there performance ... thanks in advance


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## Taygibay

Actually, Zebra, there is a common plant making AESA components in Europe with 2 locations.
http://www.ums-gaas.com

The rear end on each radar is different and the leader is Thales with the lone European one in service.
America has its own sources.

More importantly, people don't seem to get it that GaN over Gallium arsenide allows for higher output by
a couple watts which will likely be used to derive gains in temperature management of the units as well.

In other words, the step from GaAs to GaN brings immensely less than from PESA to AESA and
will only be pursued by these already making and using AESA radars for now while the others try
to master the initial new tech and then the refinement.

Which is where we join reasonings you and I from your above #3966.

Have a great day, mate. Tay.

P.S. @ GuruD 
The differences in size in standard radars still exist with skin antennaes
coming to the rescue ( distributed aperture ).
The range improvements are substantial but need not to outreach missiles.

The capacities however are dependent on high maths/program driving the device.
You get to do more things at once compared to PESA, sub-divide work sectors in
your general field/volume, operate EW tactics ( noise, cancellation, etc ), exchange
data and still all at once.

So performances can't be guessed at really. Prices are easier.

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## C130

GURU DUTT said:


> ok fair enof what about internal IRST sensor and something like SPECTRA or do you have a comparrison chart of ASH with any of the other current 4.5+ gen fighter jet




internal IRST is possible this picture shows it with one








as for SPECTRA the ALQ-214/ v4/5 is it's EW protection suite

https://clearedcareers.com/opm-names-leaders-transform-background-investigations/

Exelis Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Harris Corp., Clifton, New Jersey, is being awarded an $88,333,440 modification to a previously awarded cost-plus-fixed-fee, fixed-price-incentive-firm contract (N00019-15-C-0104) to exercise an option for the manufacture and delivery of 48 full-rate production Lot 13 integrated defensive electronic countermeasures AN/ALQ-214(V)4/5 onboard jammer systems in support of the Navy’s F/A-18C/D/EF aircraft. Work will be performed in Clifton, New Jersey (31 percent); San Jose, California (26 percent); San Diego, California (11 percent); Rancho Cordova, California (5 percent); Mountain View, California (4 percent); Hudson, New Hampshire (2 percent); and various locations within the U.S. (21 percent), and is expected to be completed in December 2018. Fiscal 2016 aircraft procurement (Navy) funds in the amount of $88,333,440 are being obligated at time of award, none of which will expire at the end of the current fiscal year. The Naval Air Systems Command, Patuxent River, Maryland, is the contracting activity.


but I wouldn't just buy the ASH I would pick up some EG-18 Growers to jam and take out radars and sams

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## W@rwolf

randomradio said:


> @W@rwolf @Taygibay
> 
> I hope this clears all your silly doubts.
> http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...be-built-by-private-sector/article8248084.ece
> Do you understand what's happening now?
> 
> This is all the way back from April 2015.
> http://www.business-standard.com/ar...o-replace-mig-21-parrikar-115041500007_1.html
> Get it?
> 
> This plan has been in the making since years now. This is apart from the Rafales. This single engine program has always depended on the success or failure of the LCA program.
> 
> So a total of possibly 2 or 3 fighter jet projects.
> http://www.business-standard.com/ar...er-make-in-india-parrikar-116061800668_1.html
> Parrikar has pushed the MII to next year just so he can be sure about the progress of the LCA program. There is still a bit of uncertainty there.
> 
> And if you lot don't believe Parrikar, then how about AM Raha?
> http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/fighter-aircrafts-make-in-india-iaf/
> This should irrefutably end the silly discussion.
> 
> We have to replace 21 squadrons, that's 400-440 aircraft. Right now we are committed to about 14 squadrons, 6 Rafale and 8 LCA, total of 270. We are short of 7 squadrons, 140+. That's where the second program will come up. In the meantime, IAF will rotate 50 operational aircraft to make new squadrons in order to make up for 54 aircraft that were phased out last year. Let's not talk about attrition.
> 
> The negotiations are complete. So it's almost done. At least we know it is in the procedural stage now.



I hope your misunderstandings have been cleared.

Parrikar know what's good for IAF, so does IAF. And inducting more types into the fleet when they're currently trying to reduce the same, with multi-role platforms rather than role-specific platforms, should have given you a clue.

Gripen-E is atleast 6 years away from induction. By that time Mk-2 LSPs will be flying too.



PARIKRAMA said:


> @Picdelamirand-oil @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @zebra7 @BON PLAN @randomradio
> @W@rwolf
> @GURU DUTT @Stephen Cohen @Spectre
> 
> Today morning I had a discussion again with my source.. he has confirmed the 3 proposals as of now which is more or less confirmed
> 
> 
> Rafale MII and probably the only twin jet MMRCA under consideration. The overall contour of the deal remains in the massive 300+ numbers due to IAF itself requesting for 200+ standalone and IN need pegged at approx 144. Again it will be a mix of Merignac and Indian line fulfilling orders.
> A private line for LCA and a plan for MK1A and MK2.
> Weaponsied Hawk with BAE especially now as UK and India will sign a free trade agreement and a host if bilateral stuff within next 12-18 months for internal safekeeping and assuring UK economy. A side prospect pushed was weaponsied HTT40 but hawk is more preferred.
> The strongest contender as I said earlier outside the planned 3 is still F16 toF35 upgrade route. But India is planning for a total of 100+ US drones from General Atomics for q mix of all services needs. So LM F16 may not see the light of the day. In the meantime a order of 4 sqda of F35 may be purchased but not now.
> 
> Boeing ASH is not favoured by IAF or IN and the scope of work via offseta through TASL is not agreeable to India. The route is suggested by Boeing to avoid Senate issue but it's not going anywhere.
> 
> Gripen E is still not given a serious thinking. In the words of Arup Raha who after taking a back seat ride has commented that Gripen E in a proper matured platform with all due certifications is 5-6 years away. With the price tag and time required for fulfilling our IAF needs, IAF will prefer LCA MK1A and will like only Rafale to be the imported and make in India project.
> 
> This has impressed DM MP a lot who has now found support from IAF for LCA project. On July1 with induction of LCA 1st squadron expect a slew of announcement to boost LCA project.
> 
> Rest all in media is speculations. Including the cost part.



That's great news! More or less along the lines of my thoughts too.

The 200+ plus number for IAF and another 140+ Rafales for IN will play havoc with the delivery schedule. Only 2 ways this can be achieved if we need to induct them all before 2030;

The MII line should hav a peak production rate of 25 jets per year.
More Rafale should be bought from the Merignac line over the current planned numbers (36 IAF + 18 IN [?])
Any idea on the Combat Hawk figures that are to be produced if the MII line is finalized? Also, will it include the modernization of the current fleet of Hawks?

The deal for drones will negate the need for buying F-16/FA-18 as reciprocity for US help in the world stage.
Also, i don't see the F-35s coming to India until we've sorted out the ITAR, LEMOA, BECA, CISMOA issues.

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Oh, yes, I understand that your article is from April and says :
> "Under the Make in India process *we may have one or two more jet fighter plants* in India *by the private sector*,” Mr. Parrikar said ..."





> More plants does not necessarily mean different fighters. Same thing as more lines.



Incorrect. We are talking about different fighter jets, not multiple lines by the same fighter. That doesn't even make sense. Why will India have to pay twice for the lines?



> I also understand that you are unbearably full of yourself calling others silly twice ...



Yes, you are being silly. You insult India, you insult its DM, you insult its people. You have done this many times in the past and I have called you out for it, like I'm gonna do so again.

What's this shit about claiming India doesn't have the manpower to build Rafales but can build Tejas easy-peasy. All you want to do is use your humongous ego to insult other people. Here's the quote from the previous page:
"Because here's the fun part, when an engineer or doctor comes out of school
he or she is still years from being top notch on the terrain. In high tech industries,
job providers like adaptable youngsters yet unspecialized that grow on the job.

And not being racist, I refuse to admit to a reason why Indians would not do as
well as any other!"

Yeah, yeah, now your defence will be you didn't insult anybody.



PARIKRAMA said:


> @Picdelamirand-oil @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @zebra7 @BON PLAN @randomradio
> @W@rwolf
> @GURU DUTT @Stephen Cohen @Spectre
> 
> Today morning I had a discussion again with my source.. he has confirmed the 3 proposals as of now which is more or less confirmed



Vstol said that apart from Rafale and LCA, *two other fighters will be chosen.* And the competition list also includes the Russians, his own jet and the western jets.



GURU DUTT said:


> ASH is in no way 120million with spares , service training and weapons(life cycle cost) its somewhere between 150-180 millon dollars and i gues it dont have things like SPECTRA and internal IRST sensor and can carry load not more than 7.5 tonne externally and has a lesser range even with CFT than rafale on internal fuel only ... i maybe wrong can some one tell it in detail i mean a comparison chart between ASH and Rafale



It's not. Our American friend here has not considered a lot of other prices, like upgrades, customization and base infrastructure. The USN has already paid for all of that, so the successive fighters get cheaper when you order more.

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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> SO Is the AESA for MK 1 A Finalised


That is set in stone, the EL/M-2052 will be delivered in the MK-1A from 2018 onwards. I do agree though that the RBE 2 would have been a more logical choice for the MK-1A for the sake of commonality. As it stands there will be at least 3 different fighter AESA radars in IAF service come 2020.

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## GURU DUTT

Abingdonboy said:


> That is set in stone, the EL/M-2052 will be delivered in the MK-1A from 2018 onwards. I do agree though that the RBE 2 would have been a more logical choice for the MK-1A for the sake of commonality. As it stands there will be at least 3 different fighter AESA radars in IAF service come 2020.


but bhai ji isnt EL2052 cheaper and more sensible option as we have good quantities of israeli air to air and air to ground munations and other things like targeting and jamming pods which are like plug and play for EL2052 while for RBE2AA we would need all of them coming from france and french stuff is quite expensive than israeli stuff but can some one tell me which one of the AESA radar is better and whats the performance and cost of them both

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## randomradio

zebra7 said:


> @randomradio Did you got the answer of your question which bird will fill the void of MIG-21 replacement.



There are a total of 4 aircraft choices for replacing the Mig-21, two will be chosen. One's already been made and another is pending.



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> If you want an AESA for LCA Mk 1A you can take RBE2 AA.



That's subject to the completion of the Rafale deal. ADA can't wait that long.

LCA itself is turning out to be much better than hoped. We will see a major reduction in weight.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016.../UQMw+(LiveFist+-+The+Best+of+Indian+Defence)

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## Abingdonboy

GURU DUTT said:


> but bhai ji isnt EL2052 cheaper and more sensible option as we have good quantities of israeli air to air and air to ground munations and other things like targeting and jamming pods which are like plug and play for EL2052 while for RBE2AA we would need all of them coming from france and french stuff is quite expensive than israeli stuff but can some one tell me which one of the AESA radar is better and whats the performance and cost of them both


What you say is perfectly reasonable brother and it may be the case it is easier/cheaper to integrate systems with the 2052. 

There won't be much difference between the capabilities and cost of the RBE2 and the 2052 imo BUT the real advantage will be in commonality. Looked at in isolation both units are great force multipliers to the IAF but one has to consider that they will be in service in large numbers in two frontline fighters of the IAF for the foreseeable future and will require entirely different spares and support. 


This isn't a huge issue as it is a rather common issue the IAF is used to by now, it would just have been more optimal for some standardisation to have taken place.

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## zebra7

GURU DUTT said:


> sirji can you tell me more on the AESA subject like what is the price diffrence between say EL-2052 and RB2AA or the CAPTOR AESA and there performance ... thanks in advance



I can't give the Price comparison, and neither should anyone be fooled with the internet pic, because it depends on the OEM how much he quote to the customer.

Regarding performance Israeli EL/M-2052 is a decent radar, and should not be compared with the french or the CAPTOR because they are high end AESA radars and CAPTOR would be on the top but would be ready post 2020.







But as far as the experience of the Israeli is concerned, they have vast live experience of the actual combat and the threats they are living. The algorithm to distinguish the target from the clutter is the key of the capability of the Radar. Israel have proposed to work with the Indian firm like DARE for the upgraded version of EL/M-2052. DARE is also working on the Uttam AESA Radar, if I am not wrong, an active help from the Israel is there on its development. When looking at the ground target recognition and SAR map the Ground terrain, even the Russians are lagging with respect to U.S or European, so you can judge the capability of the Chinese, therefore PAF are looking for the european or western replacement of various equipment on the Sino-Pak bird.

In my view even 2052 was not needed, and even 2032 was enough, but its good, when we have the technology in hand.

Right now, only thing which is lagging in the LCA Tejas MK-1 is the IRST and I was hoping skyward IRST but, after Finemecca hoshbag, we have to look for some other source.



randomradio said:


> There are a total of 4 aircraft choices for replacing the Mig-21, two will be chosen. One's already been made and another is pending.



Care to explain, who told you this and don't answer with the twisted words of the DM Parikaar, which I have already answered in detail in LCA tejas sticky thread.

Second, give me the reason, why would the replacement of the MIG-21 and 27 cannot be fullfilled by the LCA tejas and Combat Hawk, for the Interceptor, and the CAS role.



randomradio said:


> That's subject to the completion of the Rafale deal. ADA can't wait that long.
> 
> LCA itself is turning out to be much better than hoped. We will see a major reduction in weight.
> 
> http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016.../UQMw+(LiveFist+-+The+Best+of+Indian+Defence)



Agreed we have a working AESA radar EL/M-2052, and already selected Derby-ER and Python-5, whose integration won't take much time.

However I am suspectiable of the wt. reduction, because FOC has to be cleared first, and more avionics means more weight.

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## GURU DUTT

zebra7 said:


> I can't give the Price comparison, and neither should anyone be fooled with the internet pic, because it depends on the OEM how much he quote to the customer.
> 
> Regarding performance Israeli EL/M-2052 is a decent radar, and should not be compared with the french or the CAPTOR because they are high end AESA radars and CAPTOR would be on the top but would be ready post 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But as far as the experience of the Israeli is concerned, they have vast live experience of the actual combat and the threats they are living. The algorithm to distinguish the target from the clutter is the key of the capability of the Radar. Israel have proposed to work with the Indian firm like DARE for the upgraded version of EL/M-2052. DARE is also working on the Uttam AESA Radar, if I am not wrong, an active help from the Israel is there on its development. When looking at the ground target recognition and SAR map the Ground terrain, even the Russians are lagging with respect to U.S or European, so you can judge the capability of the Chinese, therefore they are looking for the european or western replacement of various equipment on the Sino-Pak bird.
> 
> In my view even 2052 was needed, and even 2032 was enough, but its good, when we have the technology in hand.
> 
> Right now, only thing which is lagging in the LCA Tejas MK-1 is the IRST and I was hoping skyward IRST but, after Finemecca hoshbag, we have to look for some other source.
> 
> 
> 
> Care to explain, who told you this and don't answer with the twisted words of the DM Parikaar, which I have already answered in detail in LCA tejas sticky thread.
> 
> Second, give me the reason, why would the replacement of the MIG-21 and 27 cannot be fullfilled by the LCA tejas and Combat Hawk, for the Interceptor, and the CAS role.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed we have a working AESA radar EL/M-2052, and already selected Derby-ER and Python-5, whose integration won't take much time.
> 
> However I am suspectiable of the wt. reduction, because FOC has to be cleared first, and more avionics means more weight.


that was a great post but whats the real diffrence in capabilities of GaA based AESA radar and GaN based AESa radar apart from GaN being more compact

secondly why cant we have something like this Eagel eye IRST pod fitted with a LITENING G4 instead of sniper LDP on LCA MK1A like F-15E can it perform well in owr kind of enviorment and will USA sell this to us ?

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> "Because here's the fun part, when an engineer or doctor comes out of school
> he or she is still years from being top notch on the terrain. In high tech industries,
> job providers like adaptable youngsters yet unspecialized that grow on the job.
> 
> And not being racist, I refuse to admit to a reason why Indians would not do as
> well as any other!"
> 
> Yeah, yeah, now your defence will be you didn't insult anybody.



No, actually my defense is that you cannot read!




randomradio said:


> Yes, you are being silly. ... You have done this many times in the past and I have called you out for it, like I'm gonna do so again.



Anytime you're available to meet in person, I'll be available to teach you to dance!

Tay.


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## zebra7

GURU DUTT said:


> that was a great post but whats the real diffrence in capabilities of GaA based AESA radar and GaN based AESa radar apart from GaN being more compact



Simple answer is the Cost.

GaN is currently cost prohibitive (cost and yield) for affordability especially when the GaA based radars are meeting or exceeding sensor performance requirements. Even till date, there are only few GaN based Aesa Radar, but with the technology advancement, the GaN module's cost will come down, then we can see the shift. That's one face of the answer but actually, what is important is the computing power and the algorithm which is behind aka Radar computer or backend.

Your answer for the CAPTOR and the RBE Radar and the EL/M-2052 is the LPI radar, in layman terms the Low probability to shows its presence to the enemy. Take an example of the torch, if you lit the light to detect the enemy, the enemy could see you with the passive sensors, but LPI radars masks its presence, even emitting. Hope you get this.





GURU DUTT said:


> secondly why cant we have something like this Eagel eye IRST pod fitted with a LITENING G4 instead of sniper LDP on LCA MK1A like F-15E can it perform well in owr kind of enviorment and will USA sell this to us ?



Because no effort in the IRST and the Optronic sensors are there in the country, and only looking to outsource it from the third party.

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## GURU DUTT

zebra7 said:


> Simple answer is the Cost.
> 
> GaN is currently cost prohibitive (cost and yield) for affordability especially when the GaA based radars are meeting or exceeding sensor performance requirements. Even till date, there are only few GaN based Aesa Radar, but with the technology advancement, the GaN module's cost will come down, then we can see the shift. That's one face of the answer but actually, what is important is the computing power and the algorithm which is behind aka Radar computer or backend.
> 
> Your answer for the CAPTOR and the RBE Radar and the EL/M-2052 is the LPI radar, in layman terms the Low probability to shows its presence to the enemy. Take an example of the torch, if you lit the light to detect the enemy, the enemy could see you with the passive sensors, but LPI radars masks its presence, even emitting. Hope you get this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because no effort in the IRST and the Optronic sensors are there in the country, and only looking to outsource it from the third party.


i get it means its (GaA or GaN) just and antenna while the real work is done by the backend computers i have read some where that its (backend) main strength lies in how much ammount of peak power it can handle for example MKis radars peak power is 5Kw while new age conductors on latest GaN based AESA radars can handle upto 50-75 some even 100 Kw im not a computer guy please elaborate on it and how far indian backend on say LCA is capable of .. thanks in advance

as for eagel eye type of pod/pod extension can we buy it from USA and will USA sell it to us so we could either put Litening or a jammer pod on it for LCA Mk1A or other platforms of IAF ?

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## BON PLAN

C130 said:


> yes I know that , that's why I am saying each will be about $120 million compared to Rafales $250 million each
> 
> 36 ASH=$4.3 billion
> 36 Rafale=$9 billion
> 
> and Dassualt actually wanted $12 billion at first too, so about $325 each, this is including the plane,shelters,spares,training, weapons etc etc


Dry price of Rafale is +/- 70 to 80 millions euros. Add the same to SH18 and Rafale to have the complete price. Difference is very small.


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## C130

BON PLAN said:


> Dry price of Rafale is +/- 70 to 80 millions euros. Add the same to SH18 and Rafale to have the complete price. Difference is very small.




I'll wait til the deal is done and see what the costs for everything is


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## randomradio

zebra7 said:


> Care to explain, who told you this and don't answer with the twisted words of the DM Parikaar, which I have already answered in detail in LCA tejas sticky thread.



Vstol did, a few hours ago. I've already answered that in the previous page.

The 4 choices were LCA, Gripen, F-16 and LSA. LCA was chosen. Now the choice is between LSA, F-16 and Gripen.



> Second, give me the reason, why would the replacement of the MIG-21 and 27 cannot be fullfilled by the LCA tejas and Combat Hawk, for the Interceptor, and the CAS role.



Combat Hawk isn't being bought for 'combat'. It will be bought to train cadets.

We have to replace 250 Mig-21s and 120 Mig-27s. 40 MKI have replaced a bunch of them already. So there are still over 300 aircraft that need to be replaced with a single engine fighter.

I don't think the F-16 will give any competition. The choice may end up between LSA and Gripen.

This is apart from the twin engine fighter that will complement the Rafale. It could be the SH or a Russian jet. This is separate from the single engine competition.

There was nothing cryptic in what Parrikar said. Parrikar has been quoted for saying something like Rafales are coming, another twin engine fighter will be coming along with another single engine fighter, apart from the LCA.

So yeah, right now Parrikar will select a twin engine fighter and a single engine fighter. Subject to certain conditions, one or both may be chosen, one of those conditions being GDP growth and another being indigenization, because then we will have to pay INR to the companies and we have a lot of that. I'll repeat again, this is separate from Rafale and LCA. And no, like some people like to keep repeating, it won't matter if another LCA line is built, we are talking about different fighters.

The more fighter lines are built, the faster the older jets will be replaced, and that also includes the Mig-29 and the remaining Jaguars. Even with just 39.5 squadrons sanctioned, IAF has operated 1000+ fighters in the past, particularly in the 90s when we had over 500 Mig-21, 250 Mig-27, 150 Jaguars, 150 Mig-23 etc. So the numbers in each squadron are simply a notional indicator of what a squadron is. The reality is dependent on funding for new and phasing out of the old. IAF saves more money by investing in new jets than keep old jets alive.

Aerospace is extremely important if anybody's bothered to actually see what's happening in terms of economics, national security and others aspects, especially what Doval has been saying over the last one year. There are some major plans afoot.

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## Stephen Cohen

randomradio said:


> Aerospace is extremely important if anybody's bothered to actually see what's happening in terms of economics, national security and others aspects, especially what Doval has been saying over the last one year. There are some major plans afoot.



The TIME has come to start Implementing our plans


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## BON PLAN

C130 said:


> I'll wait til the deal is done and see what the costs for everything is


But in this case you will only have Rafale complete price. Not the same for SH18 because it will not be purchased


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## C130

BON PLAN said:


> But in this case you will only have Rafale complete price. Not the same for SH18 because it will not be purchased




India is looking for another aircraft under the "Make in India" so it's no big loss

I actually like the Dassualt Rafale, but I don't like the price of the plane and the French weapons though 

It's got to the point of no return. Even if India wanted to dump the Rafale for another bird it they won't. can't lose face now.

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## randomradio

GURU DUTT said:


> that was a great post but whats the real diffrence in capabilities of GaA based AESA radar and GaN based AESa radar apart from GaN being more compact



GaN is a game changer. Its basic version will allow an increase in power density by 5 times, it can even go up to 10, 15 times or even 30 times. There is also a major upgrade to target resolution also.

GaN also has a much higher breakdown voltage, which means the antennas can perform at high voltages, so it consumes lesser power for every mm distance in transistors compared to GaAs. And every bit of efficiency is necessary because it reduces cooling requirements and that translates to much higher operation time before having to switch off the radar. GaN can work comfortably even at 300 degC while GaAs heats up at 160degC.

Another advantage of GaN is the size of the MMICs, there is a 10+ times size difference compared to GaAs MMIC. That means you can start placing the radar everywhere on an aircraft, not just the nose. GaN is a revolutionary technology, and if possible, we should be among the first to get it on our fighters.



Stephen Cohen said:


> The TIME has come to start Implementing our plans



Of course. Apart from all the MRCA programs, we are expanding our missile capability and developing new technologies. This year we will be testing two different scramjet engines.



C130 said:


> I actually like the Dassualt Rafale, but I don't like the price of the plane and the French weapons though



That's a pretty unfair accusation. The Rafale is not more expensive than the SH. If we strip the Rafale down to the SH's avionics level, the price would be lower than the SH even though so few have been built.

Also, the price of French weapons are higher because of its smaller market. If enough people buy enough of those weapons it will be far more competitive. And French weapons have more life.

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## BON PLAN

C130 said:


> India is looking for another aircraft under the "Make in India" so it's no big loss
> 
> I actually like the Dassualt Rafale, but I don't like the price of the plane and the French weapons though
> 
> It's got to the point of no return. Even if India wanted to dump the Rafale for another bird it they won't. can't lose face now.


I think the price of Rafale is over estimated in the media. It's part of the Rafale bashing.
But for the weapons, you're right. We haven't the same scale effect than some others...

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## C130

randomradio said:


> GaN is a game changer. Its basic version will allow an increase in power density by 5 times, it can even go up to 10, 15 times or even 30 times. There is also a major upgrade to target resolution also.
> 
> GaN also has a much higher breakdown voltage, which means the antennas can perform at high voltages, so it consumes lesser power for every mm distance in transistors compared to GaAs. And every bit of efficiency is necessary because it reduces cooling requirements and that translates to much higher operation time before having to switch off the radar. GaN can work comfortably even at 300 degC while GaAs heats up at 160degC.
> 
> Another advantage of GaN is the size of the MMICs, there is a 10+ times size difference compared to GaAs MMIC. That means you can start placing the radar everywhere on an aircraft, not just the nose. GaN is a revolutionary technology, and if possible, we should be among the first to get it on our fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course. Apart from all the MRCA programs, we are expanding our missile capability and developing new technologies. This year we will be testing two different scramjet engines.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a pretty unfair accusation. The Rafale is not more expensive than the SH. If we strip the Rafale down to the SH's avionics level, the price would be lower than the SH even though so few have been built.
> 
> Also, the price of French weapons are higher because of its smaller market. If enough people buy enough of those weapons it will be far more competitive. And French weapons have more life.




SH avionics aren't much lower than Rafales


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## randomradio

C130 said:


> SH avionics aren't much lower than Rafales



Significantly. Rafale's avionics are at the F-35's level. Pretty soon the Rafale will be getting stuff that will surpass the F-35 also.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

C130 said:


> SH avionics aren't much lower than Rafales



The Super Hornet is my indulgence master standard with respect to the Typhoon. As serious as the aircraft design flaws are, it will never be worse than the Super Hornet.


Inability to pack AMRAAM at wing tip,
Inability to carry a drop tank under the wing of the same side as the PDL because of the poor visibility of the pod,
Necessity to offset wing pylons from the axis of the aircraft which results in the well-known consequences for dragged and RCS obviously,
The result of all this is the autonomy is barely higher than that of the Hornet: I think it is less than 10% more range on an air-ground task type, then the program required a 35% greater range.

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## Agent_47

randomradio said:


> We have to replace 250 Mig-21s and 120 Mig-27s. 40 MKI have replaced a bunch of them already. So there are still over 300 aircraft that need to be replaced with a single engine fighter.


So, 90 Rafale (90+36) as second order/ production line is confirmed and second order of improved LCA (120 + 140 atleast) is confirmed then it already fills the Mig numbers. What is the need for another single or double engine fighters ?



randomradio said:


> The more fighter lines are built, the faster the older jets will be replaced, and that also includes the Mig-29 and the remaining Jaguars. Even with just 39.5 squadrons sanctioned, IAF has operated 1000+ fighters in the past, particularly in the 90s when we had over 500 Mig-21, 250 Mig-27, 150 Jaguars, 150 Mig-23 etc. So the numbers in each squadron are simply a notional indicator of what a squadron is. The reality is dependent on funding for new and phasing out of the old. IAF saves more money by investing in new jets than keep old jets alive.



It doesn't matter how many we operated in past, what matter is threat perception. In old days a fighter is suppose to do a single job today a fighter like rafale can do job of 4. Planes are procured based on requirement not funding. Funding try to fulfill the requirements.

In last press conference air chief categorically said M29,M2K and jaugars will only start retiring after 2030 and we have more than ten years to prepare a medium fighter (AMCA).

HAL produced Mig 27 number is 165 and Jaugar number in IAF never crossed 125. Where do you make up these numbers ?


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## R!CK

Just my 2 cents on this issue. I think its unfair to compare Rafales with ASH. As a matter of fact, Rafale is expected to continue as the frontline aircraft for France, Qatar and Egypt. So there will definitely be an upgrade path to improve the aircraft further. But in an ideal world set out by LM, FA-18 will eventually be replaced by F-35 from US and Australian fleet. This sort of puts to question the future upgrade path for FA-18 with both the current operators already having a replacement aircraft in sight. 
I'd think that the people who are responsible for making decisions will always consider this. The pricing or package which includes TOT will have to be significantly huge for someone to overlook the upgrade path issue for FA-18. But who knows, it might well be if the FA-18 is ordered as an additional project eventually. 

Good Day!


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## randomradio

Agent_47 said:


> So, 90 Rafale (90+36) as second order/ production line is confirmed and second order of improved LCA (120 + 140 atleast) is confirmed then it already fills the Mig numbers. What is the need for another single or double engine fighters ?



126 Rafale is confirmed.
120 LCA is confirmed. They are saying that's 8 squadrons. So I need to get that checked. There is no mention of 140 more.



> It doesn't matter how many we operated in past, what matter is threat perception. In old days a fighter is suppose to do a single job today a fighter like rafale can do job of 4. Planes are procured based on requirement not funding. Funding try to fulfill the requirements.



See, this is very difficult to comment on. IAF has always operated a number of jets for CAS, we are replacing that with 100+ or more attack helicopters for the IAF alone, and IA wants another 200. Apart from that IAF wants to induct UCAVs also.

So the 42 squadrons will slowly end up becoming a real air force rather than a patchwork of multiple requirements.

Funding matters because Parrikar said that we may not be able to completely get all 42 squadrons either, he doesn't know yet. Which means funds will be a critical constraint if we go for more expensive fighters like the Rafale and the interim numbers of PAK FA in MII format. But if we go for multiple cheaper aircraft, then we will have to induct a decent number of at least 90 each to make the production viable. So the numbers can go anywhere.

And you have to see this with the IN included. You can't exclude them, their requirement is half that of the current IAF requirement and will increase after 2027.



> In last press conference air chief categorically said M29,M2K and jaugars will only start retiring after 2030 and we have more than ten years to prepare a medium fighter (AMCA).



They will just put the aircraft in storage like other air forces do.



> HAL produced Mig 27 number is 165 and Jaugar number in IAF never crossed 125. Where do you make up these numbers ?



We had 131 Jaguars in the 90s. Then we manufactured 37 more after the 2000s. But I made a mistake with the Mig-27, it is 165.

The actual numbers are pointless, the point was IAF had 1000+ fighters, you haven't counted older aircraft like the Gnats and Hunters that were still in service apart from the M-2000, Mig-29 and Mig-25.

IAF had a 3:1 numbers superiority over the PAF and we may eventually plan to have those numbers again, especially if we end up with that many production lines.



R!CK said:


> JThis sort of puts to question the future upgrade path for FA-18 with both the current operators already having a replacement aircraft in sight.



The F-16 faces the same issue.


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## Taygibay

R!CK said:


> So there will definitely be an upgrade path to improve the aircraft further.



There is, there ever was since that is what standards are all about,
bringing every plane ever built up to speed ... not Mach_s _but so to speak!



R!CK said:


> This sort of puts to question the future upgrade path for FA-18



Which is not a major investment program anymore in 2016 ;
http://comptroller.defense.gov/Port...y2016/FY2016_Budget_Request_Overview_Book.pdf
and so unlikely to get significant development funding.

Have a good evening, Tay.

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## R!CK

randomradio said:


> 126 Rafale is confirmed.
> 120 LCA is confirmed. They are saying that's 8 squadrons. So I need to get that checked. There is no mention of 140 more.
> 
> The F-16 faces the same issue.



1. 120 LCA will be 6 squadrons. Each LCA squadron will have 20 aircraft including 4 spares. However DMs statement of 8 squadrons in 8 years is contradicting.

2. Yes it does and that leaves just Rafale and Gripen as a credible option with some upgrade potential in the future. I was only speaking of F-18/Rafale in my previous post.


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## zebra7

GURU DUTT said:


> i get it means its (GaA or GaN) just and antenna while the real work is done by the backend computers i have read some where that its (backend) main strength lies in how much ammount of peak power it can handle for example MKis radars peak power is 5Kw while new age conductors on latest GaN based AESA radars can handle upto 50-75 some even 100 Kw im not a computer guy please elaborate on it and how far indian backend on say LCA is capable of .. thanks in advance



Take a chill Pill and leave that for the fans who are interested in Who will Detect first formula persons. The Air Superiority fighter Jet like MKI, are not for hiding itself, and will use its Medium altitude, Big RCS, High power long range Radar loud and clear, because its the other aircraft such as MIG-21 Bison, Mirrage 2000 UPG or MIg 29 or even LCA Tejas or Rafale e in the forward location, keeping their radar in silent mode. and getting updates, and the enemy location via secured Data link and in India Case ODL-2 Operational Data LInk.

All the outputs of KW and no. of modules are for the theoretical calculation and that too in the Lab environment. The detection range depends on numerious parameters, and that includes the surface of the target detection also. No body needs the detection range of 200 KM in the fighter planes like LCA. So try to undestand like this, the out power of the radar is important, but you need the sensitive sensor also to catch the returning waveform, which is then analyse for the detection and there is an attenuation loss also in the Radar, which is never mentioned by any OEM, offcource they key it fairly well, and the pilot and the airforce who is using that radar, gets a fair idea of the radar losses, but again he will not disclose it.

As far as the MKI N011 Bars radar is concerned, if the 5KW output is available in the public domain, and the people starting doing calculation and evaluating, then why IAF kept its Radar, which is the main power of the MKI in the training mode, during the Red Flag exercise, and why was Russia concerned at that time with the decision of the IAF to participate in that exercise. But they have confidence in the IAF and the India, that they will never disclose the secrets of the Bars Radar to the west.

What is more important is that, India, have the Bars source code, and this is my calculated guess, because all its tests like Astra BVR, and in future any test would be from the MKI first.

@randomradio you keep on repeating same thing again and again, unless you have lot of free time, and leave the main question ?

1. Who told you that there is anything called LSA, and tell me which official, minister ever mentioned the word LSA.

2. Who told you there are 4 aircraft for the replacement of the MIg-21 and Mig 27, and from you are going to bring the money to buy so called F-16, and Gripen.

The cost of the LCA MK-1 together with the Infra and training is 45 Milion a piece, and for the Combat hawk, would be even lower. The Combat Hawk could be produced in number, because HAL has all the zigs and stucture and already produced 18 birds offcourse HAWK trainer.

And when we are talking about Combat Hawk, its different from the Hawk which is used as the Advance Jet Trainer by IAF. Combat Hawk would have IRST and Laser range finder on its nose, and if there is a demand for Radar, then the Radar in the Pod form EL/L-20600 is available.

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## BON PLAN

zebra7 said:


> Take a chill Pill and leave that for the fans who are interested in Who will Detect first formula persons. The Air Superiority fighter Jet like MKI, are not for hiding itself, and will use its Medium altitude, Big RCS, High power long range Radar loud and clear, because its the other aircraft such as MIG-21 Bison, Mirrage 2000 UPG or MIg 29 or even LCA Tejas or Rafale e in the forward location, keeping their radar in silent mode. and getting updates, and the enemy location via secured Data link and in India Case ODL-2 Operational Data LInk.
> 
> All the outputs of KW and no. of modules are for the theoretical calculation and that too in the Lab environment. The detection range depends on numerious parameters, and that includes the surface of the target detection also. No body needs the detection range of 200 KM in the fighter planes like LCA. So try to undestand like this, the out power of the radar is important, but you need the sensitive sensor also to catch the returning waveform, which is then analyse for the detection and there is an attenuation loss also in the Radar, which is never mentioned by any OEM, offcource they key it fairly well, and the pilot and the airforce who is using that radar, gets a fair idea of the radar losses, but again he will not disclose it.
> 
> As far as the MKI N011 Bars radar is concerned, if the 5KW output is available in the public domain, and the people starting doing calculation and evaluating, then why IAF kept its Radar, which is the main power of the MKI in the training mode, during the Red Flag exercise, and why was Russia concerned at that time with the decision of the IAF to participate in that exercise. But they have confidence in the IAF and the India, that they will never disclose the secrets of the Bars Radar to the west.
> 
> What is more important is that, India, have the Bars source code, and this is my calculated guess, because all its tests like Astra BVR, and in future any test would be from the MKI first.
> 
> @randomradio you keep on repeating same thing again and again, unless you have lot of free time, and leave the main question ?
> 
> 1. Who told you that there is anything called LSA, and tell me which official, minister ever mentioned the word LSA.
> 
> 2. Who told you there are 4 aircraft for the replacement of the MIg-21 and Mig 27, and from you are going to bring the money to buy so called F-16, and Gripen.
> 
> The cost of the LCA MK-1 together with the Infra and training is 45 Milion a piece, and for the Combat hawk, would be even lower. The Combat Hawk could be produced in number, because HAL has all the zigs and stucture and already produced 18 birds offcourse HAWK trainer.
> 
> And when we are talking about Combat Hawk, its different from the Hawk which is used as the Advance Jet Trainer by IAF. Combat Hawk would have IRST and Laser range finder on its nose, and if there is a demand for Radar, then the Radar in the Pod form EL/L-2032 is available.


Combat Hawk is a very low end option : short legs, small weapon capacity, small radar, low self protection. Usefull for CAS in low or medium battlefield environment, and not too far from base. Not more. But in some case it will be enough.

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## Stephen Cohen

zebra7 said:


> then the Radar in the Pod form EL/L-2032 is available



Could you please explain ; A Radar in a POD form ?

Fire control Radars are generally spherical / elliptical in shape and put in the nose cone


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## zebra7

BON PLAN said:


> Combat Hawk is a very low end option : short legs, small weapon capacity, small radar, low self protection. Usefull for CAS in low or medium battlefield environment, and not too far from base. Not more. But in some case it will be enough.



For the replacement for the MIG-21 for the similar role, you don't need F-22 or EF-2000. 


1. All the bases of the Pakistan are close to the border.

2. Chinese main bases are too far away, even MKI would find it too far away.

3. Apart from the 300 MKI, we have 2 squardon of Mirrage 2000UPG, 3 squardon of MIG-29 UPG, and Upgraded Jaguar, and now Rafale, Do you think those Combat Hawk would fly over enemy without having the Air Dominance over the Enemy Airspace.

4. For the hardened target Brahmos from Land based, and soon A2G is available.

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## Stephen Cohen

BON PLAN said:


> Combat Hawk is a very low end option : short legs, small weapon capacity, small radar, low self protection. Usefull for CAS in low or medium battlefield environment, and not too far from base. Not more. But in some case it will be enough.



Combat hawk will be excellent in attacking enemy ground troops -- not very deep
for eg -- say till 50 KM inside enemy territory

It has excellent range ; better than an attack helicopter can carry 3 Tonnes of load

It will work under suitable conditions ie having Air support from Mig 29 or LCA

By the way we have MODIFIED ; AN 32 transport plane to be used as a Bomber

It can drop TEN tonnes of Bombs on the enemy and obliterate any thing

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## zebra7

Stephen Cohen said:


> Could you please explain ; A Radar in a POD form ?
> 
> Fire control Radars are generally spherical / elliptical in shape and put in the nose cone



EL/L-2032 radar is for the planes who don't have radar installed in its nose or don't have space for it. Its the same radar EL/M-2032 which is installed inside the nose of the fighter plane but is in the shape of the Pod, which is mounted on the pylon of the aircraft.






following are the specs of ELTA 2032 from IAI Elbit website.

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## Stephen Cohen

zebra7 said:


> EL/L-2032 radar is for the planes who don't have radar installed in its nose or don't have space for it. Its the same radar EL/M-2032 which is installed inside the nose of the fighter plane but is in the shape of the Pod, which is mounted on the pylon of the aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> following are the specs of ELTA 2032 from IAI Elbit website.



Google only shows EL / M -2032 

Is the EL / L 2032 still in production 

Does any plane use the L 2032


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## GURU DUTT

zebra7 said:


> EL/L-2032 radar is for the planes who don't have radar installed in its nose or don't have space for it. Its the same radar EL/M-2032 which is installed inside the nose of the fighter plane but is in the shape of the Pod, which is mounted on the pylon of the aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> following are the specs of ELTA 2032 from IAI Elbit website.


so you mean we can have a AESA radar in a pod well thats a new thing so means theorcally we can we can have an X band AESA is nose cone and a smaller lighter L band AESA on a pod of the same Aircraft which i guess will make a plane like say MKI equivellent to a AWACS and Wia Data link command a small squad of LCA type fighters where we cant spare a AWACS right or existing MKIs can have a simillar EL2052 pod underbelly ... god that will so much time and money on having a full fleged super sukhoi MLU

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## zebra7

GURU DUTT said:


> so you mean we can have a AESA radar in a pod well thats a new thing so means theorcally we can we can have an X band AESA is nose cone and a smaller lighter L band AESA on a pod of the same Aircraft which i guess will make a plane like say MKI equivellent to a AWACS and Wia Data link command a small squad of LCA type fighters where we cant spare a AWACS right or existing MKIs can have a simillar EL2052 pod underbelly ... god that will so much time and money on having a full fleged super sukhoi MLU



LOLZ, why would you need X band Aesa on the pod, when Pulse Doppler could be used. AESA is only needed for the interleaved operation for the Airborne and Ground target detection, and targetting. Theoratically it is possible to have the Radar in the form of the Pod, but since GaN based Aesa which could be fabricated on any surface, and of any shape, which @randomradio was talking should be the future and could be used on the wing forward edge.




Stephen Cohen said:


> Google only shows EL / M -2032
> 
> Is the EL / L 2032 still in production
> 
> Does any plane use the L 2032



Sorry mistyped EL/L-20600 to map the ground target. We are using such podded Radar (not -2032) in our Donier Do-228 for Naval survillance. I lost one picture fitted such pod.

http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/0/41550.pdf






We are already have this POD, but that will suit bigger aircraft such as MKI or Mig-29














http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/6/42026.pdf

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## GURU DUTT

zebra7 said:


> LOLZ, why would you need X band Aesa on the pod, when Pulse Doppler could be used. AESA is only needed for the interleaved operation for the Airborne and Ground target detection, and targetting. Theoratically it is possible to have the Radar in the form of the Pod, but since GaN based Aesa which could be fabricated on any surface, and of any shape, which @randomradio was talking should be the future and could be used on the wing forward edge.
> 
> http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/6/42026.pdf



sirji i still dont get isnt GaN based AESA suprior to a regular pulse doppler type MMR radar ? 

then why should we waste time and money to get a complete MLU on MKI why cant we just add a EL2052 AESA based pod on MKI and have two instead of one radars on MKI and is there a possibilty of adding simmilar AESA based POD on lines of something like SPECTRA for fighters like MKI and M2K as Mig29 upgrade has already one on board and make something like growler out of MKI ?


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## zebra7

GURU DUTT said:


> sirji i still dont get isnt GaN based AESA suprior to a regular pulse doppler type MMR radar ?
> 
> then why should we waste time and money to get a complete MLU on MKI why cant we just add a EL2052 AESA based pod on MKI and have two instead of one radars on MKI and is there a possibilty of adding simmilar AESA based POD on lines of something like SPECTRA for fighters like MKI and M2K as Mig29 upgrade has already one on board and make something like growler out of MKI ?



Guru Bhai read this for some knowledge of GaN, GaS, PESA first

http://www.armadainternational.com/assets/images/pdf/3._AESA_Radar_Technology_.pdf

Now what you don't understand the answer lies in the L Band Radar Antenna of the PAK FA N036L-1-01, which is on the wing and not on inside its Nose.

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## randomradio

R!CK said:


> 1. 120 LCA will be 6 squadrons. Each LCA squadron will have 20 aircraft including 4 spares. However DMs statement of 8 squadrons in 8 years is contradicting.



I suppose he may be talking about 2 extra squadrons as options.



zebra7 said:


> @randomradio you keep on repeating same thing again and again, unless you have lot of free time, and leave the main question ?
> 
> 1. Who told you that there is anything called LSA, and tell me which official, minister ever mentioned the word LSA.



Why should anybody mention this?



> 2. Who told you there are 4 aircraft for the replacement of the MIg-21 and Mig 27, and from you are going to bring the money to buy so called F-16, and Gripen.



There are that many single engine aircraft in contention.



> And when we are talking about Combat Hawk, its different from the Hawk which is used as the Advance Jet Trainer by IAF. Combat Hawk would have IRST and Laser range finder on its nose, and if there is a demand for Radar, then the Radar in the Pod form EL/L-20600 is available.



Combat Hawk isn't a fighter jet, it's a training aid. LCA Mk1 itself is far superior to the Combat Hawk. HAL wants the army to buy the Combat Hawk. They are building it as a competitor to Textron's Scorpion and has huge export potential.



GURU DUTT said:


> so you mean we can have a AESA radar in a pod well thats a new thing so means theorcally we can we can have an X band AESA is nose cone and a smaller lighter L band AESA on a pod of the same Aircraft which i guess will make a plane like say MKI equivellent to a AWACS and Wia Data link command a small squad of LCA type fighters where we cant spare a AWACS right or existing MKIs can have a simillar EL2052 pod underbelly ... god that will so much time and money on having a full fleged super sukhoi MLU



A radar in a pod it pointless, it will be too small. You can only put specialized radars in pods and we already have something like that called the EL/M 2060P.



zebra7 said:


> LOLZ, why would you need X band Aesa on the pod, when Pulse Doppler could be used.



Can you tell me the difference between AESA and pulse doppler?



> but since GaN based Aesa which could be fabricated on any surface, and of any shape, which @randomradio was talking should be the future and could be used on the wing forward edge.



It depends on what you mean by future? The Russians are already doing that with GaAs also.



GURU DUTT said:


> sirji i still dont get isnt GaN based AESA suprior to a regular pulse doppler type MMR radar ?



Dude, he doesn't know anything about radars. Even AESA is a pulse doppler radar.



> then why should we waste time and money to get a complete MLU on MKI why cant we just add a EL2052 AESA based pod on MKI and have two instead of one radars on MKI and is there a possibilty of adding simmilar AESA based POD on lines of something like SPECTRA for fighters like MKI and M2K as Mig29 upgrade has already one on board and make something like growler out of MKI ?



MKI will get a NIIP radar. The Russians have better tech.

Pods are not good for radars because they are too small.

MKI won't get something like Spectra, but close, like D-29 on the Mig-29. MKI as a Growler already exists. We use the SAP-518 and SAP-14. However, I don't know if it is as capable. Anyway a Growler equivalent aircraft is irrelevant once we get the Rafale. With the right investment, a Rafale or two can carry a large group of MKIs without being detected.

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## zebra7

randomradio said:


> Why should anybody mention this?



Then why are you keep on repeating LSA. Are you one who is responsible for formulating the Indian policy or the directive to the defence development. Question is simple, I am not asking what is LSA, but how the idea of LSA was created and by whom.



randomradio said:


> There are that many single engine aircraft in contention.



Sir, jee you yourself is quoting the number of Migs to be replaced, and now if India wants to replace them with costly imported/ license produced planes like F-16 which would cost 85 Million flyaway and 80 Million Gripen flyaway, now add the infra, airbase upgrades, spares, training of maintainance crew and pilot cost also will shoot the sky. Combat Hawk is the best solution for that.



randomradio said:


> Combat Hawk isn't a fighter jet, it's a training aid. LCA Mk1 itself is far superior to the Combat Hawk. HAL wants the army to buy the Combat Hawk. They are building it as a competitor to Textron's Scorpion and has huge export potential.



Hawk is an advance jet, and Combat Hawk is the armed version of the Hawk trainer, similarly Jaguar was developed as the LIFT, and similarly GNAT was also the trainer.



randomradio said:


> A radar in a pod it pointless, it will be too small. You can only put specialized radars in pods and we already have something like that called the EL/M 2060P.



EL/M2060P is too heavy and is for the bigger aircraft such as MKI, I am stating ELM-20600 Pod for SAR mapping and Recce for the ground target. 



randomradio said:


> Can you tell me the difference between AESA and pulse doppler?



LOL



randomradio said:


> It depends on what you mean by future? The Russians are already doing that with GaAs also.



That was for the explaination of @gurudutt, Care to read the further conversation.


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## randomradio

zebra7 said:


> Then why are you keep on repeating LSA. Are you one who is responsible for formulating the Indian policy or the directive to the defence development. Question is simple, I am not asking what is LSA, but how the idea of LSA was created and by whom.



There are people around.



> Sir, jee you yourself is quoting the number of Migs to be replaced, and now if India wants to replace them with costly imported/ license produced planes like F-16 which would cost 85 Million flyaway and 80 Million Gripen flyaway, now add the infra, airbase upgrades, spares, training of maintainance crew and pilot cost also will shoot the sky. Combat Hawk is the best solution for that.



So an advanced trainer modified to carry weapons will replace fighter jets?

Do you want to discuss this seriously?



> EL/M2060P is too heavy and is for the bigger aircraft such as MKI, I am stating ELM-20600 Pod for SAR mapping and Recce for the ground target.



No, it's not heavy. This is a F-16.









> LOL



So you don't know the difference between AESA and PD. As expected.


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## Taygibay

zebra7 said:


> No body needs the detection range of 200 KM in the fighter planes like LCA.



Actually, it's easy to compute what radar range an aircraft needs!
It's : pilot/system reaction time + range of furthest reaching armament.

If your longer range weapon has a 100km NEZ, you need detection/firing
at say 120km if quick to engage, 150 if slow.

Using max values ( max. combined converging speeds, etc ) for constraints
and minimal guaranteed performances will find the usable detection range.

No one needs a 1,000 km radar performance in air to air today because no
missile can get to an enemy a thousand kliks away. What are the pilots to do
for 30+ minutes, have tea or take a nap? Go to facebook?

Good day all, Tay.

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## C130

I think I have come around that Rafale is the right choice for IAF and not the F-16,F/A 18.

the only other aircraft that makes sense is F-15SA/SE, but it wasn't even in MMRCA.







considering Rafale capabilities it will be a beast in the deep strike mission into the enemy territory

along with 6 AASM that are like smaller,cheaper AGM-130 this is potent combo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AASM

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## Agent_47

randomradio said:


> 126 Rafale is confirmed.
> 120 LCA is confirmed. They are saying that's 8 squadrons. So I need to get that checked. There is no mention of 140 more.


There will be a second order. Last DM and Paraker has already said that multiple times.



randomradio said:


> They will just put the aircraft in storage like other air forces do.


Are you stupid are acting like one to prove your point ?!
We are spending $3+ billlion just to upgrade Mirage,jauger and Mig 29 to world class standard. These programs are 3-4 years away from completion. And you want to put all of them in storage ?



randomradio said:


> We had 131 Jaguars in the 90s. Then we manufactured 37 more after the 2000s. But I made a mistake with the Mig-27, it is 165.
> 
> The actual numbers are pointless, the point was IAF had 1000+ fighters, you haven't counted older aircraft like the Gnats and Hunters that were still in service apart from the M-2000, Mig-29 and Mig-25.
> 
> IAF had a 3:1 numbers superiority over the PAF and we may eventually plan to have those numbers again, especially if we end up with that many production lines.


Let me repeat, Unlike past today fighters are multirole. A single Rafale can do the job of mig-21,Mirage 2000,Mig 27 and Jaguars. And these are very expensive to procure and maintain.

IAF is looking for a balanced fleet so that it can defend a two front war not some 'feel good' superiority. Importing too many platforms will only make a maintenance nightmare.



C130 said:


> the only other aircraft that makes sense is F-15SA/SE, but it wasn't even in MMRCA.


Yes, Rafale is a perfect choice.
For F-15SA/SE we have Su-30 MKI / Super MKI, same class and role.

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## randomradio

Agent_47 said:


> There will be a second order. Last DM and Paraker has already said that multiple times.



That is subject to HAL delivering. But there is no mention of a second production line with a private company.



> Are you stupid are acting like one to prove your point ?!
> We are spending $3+ billlion just to upgrade Mirage,jauger and Mig 29 to world class standard. These programs are 3-4 years away from completion. And you want to put all of them in storage ?



Mig-29 is almost already complete. They have their lives extended by 1000 hours each. That's 10 years of service operation, so if the IAF has aircraft, they would start replacing those by 2027.

M-2000 has more life, extension has given it 5500 hours, they can easily function for another 30 years, that's 2040-2050. Why do you think they plan to retire in 2030? So who's the stupid one now?

It's very common for air forces to put their jets in storage, even operational ones. The USMC recently reactivated 30 Hornets which were in storage. The USAF has thousands of jets in storage, and they haven't even completely half their life.



> Let me repeat, Unlike past today fighters are multirole. A single Rafale can do the job of mig-21,Mirage 2000,Mig 27 and Jaguars. And these are very expensive to procure and maintain.



So what? Who said war is cheap?



> Importing too many platforms will only make a maintenance nightmare.



What horseshit. IAF has had more types in the past than it does today, and we were much poorer then.


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## Agent_47

randomradio said:


> That is subject to HAL delivering. But there is no mention of a second production line with a private company.


Did i mention private production line ? HAL chairman said production line can be increased to 25-26 per year.



randomradio said:


> Mig-29 is almost already complete. They have their lives extended by 1000 hours each. That's 10 years of service operation, so if the IAF has aircraft, they would start replacing those by 2027.



First Indian modernized Mig 29 flew last year. 50+ left, does that look completed to you ?



> According to Sergey Korotkov, the first MiG-29UPG fighter jet modernized by Indian specialists took off into the sky in February of this year. He also said that there are four jets in the first batch of MiG-29 fighters upgraded in India. It may be recalled that the contract to upgrade 62 MiG-29 fighter jets for the Indian Air Force was signed in March 2008. http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...-mig_19upg-for-india-begins-flight-tests.html



Please show me the reference for "Replacement from 2027" part.



randomradio said:


> M-2000 has more life, extension has given it 5500 hours, they can easily function for another 30 years, that's 2040-2050. Why do you think they plan to retire in 2030? So who's the stupid one now?


Read my statement again. IAF chief said they will start replacing M2000,M29,jauger *from 2030*. Its a process, like we are doing here with Mig 21 and Mig 27. Was that so hard ?



randomradio said:


> It's very common for air forces to put their jets in storage, even operational ones. The USMC recently reactivated 30 Hornets which were in storage. The USAF has thousands of jets in storage, and they haven't even completely half their life.


So you want to induct expensive jets and put perfectly capable aircrafts in storage for which we spend billions to keep it flying ?



randomradio said:


> So what? Who said war is cheap?


In your last post you said we have budget problems for procurement.

Still no arguments for multirole part uh ?



randomradio said:


> What horseshit. IAF has had more types in the past than it does today, and we were much poorer then.



Why do you think US choose to make three F35 versions for different services instead of three separate aircrafts ? (That too single engine)
Why do you think French going for multi role Rafale only airforce ? (M2000 only for NS)
Why do you think China does not induct JF-17 for the sake of filling numbers?
Why do you think Pakistan is so reluctant to induct double engine aircrafts and obsessed with just 1-2 single engine platforms?

We were on clear path of commonality:
Light => LCA (12-14 sq)
Medium => Rafale, AMCA (7 sq, 10-12 sq)
Heavy => MKI,FGFA (9-12 sq)

Don't know about single-double import BS.
Rest my case.


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## randomradio

Agent_47 said:


> Did i mention private production line ? HAL chairman said production line can be increased to 25-26 per year.



Then production will go into the 2030s.



> First Indian modernized Mig 29 flew last year. 50+ left, does that look completed to you ?



The date I provided covers the 10 years.



> Please show me the reference for "Replacement from 2027" part.



Do the math.



> Read my statement again. IAF chief said they will start replacing M2000,M29,jauger *from 2030*. Its a process, like we are doing here with Mig 21 and Mig 27. Was that so hard ?



Such dates are tentative. When new contracts are signed, the dates change.



> So you want to induct expensive jets and put perfectly capable aircrafts in storage for which we spend billions to keep it flying ?



Yes.



> In your last post you said we have budget problems for procurement.



Can you point that out? I've always said there is no long term budget issues.



> Still no arguments for multirole part uh ?



Because it is unnecessary.



> Why do you think US choose to make three F35 versions for different services instead of three separate aircrafts ? (That too single engine)
> Why do you think French going for multi role Rafale only airforce ? (M2000 only for NS)
> Why do you think China does not induct JF-17 for the sake of filling numbers?
> Why do you think Pakistan is so reluctant to induct double engine aircrafts and obsessed with just 1-2 single engine platforms?



You've brought in irrelevant stuff.



> Don't know about single-double import BS.
> Rest my case.



I'd choose to believe Parrikar and Raha over you. I'm done.

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## W@rwolf

*France offers EUR 1 billion to revive India's combat jet engine project*

France has offered to invest EUR 1 billion to revive India's combat jet engine project, proposing a joint development plan that could see the stalled 'Kaveri' gas turbine powering indigenousTejas fighters by 2020. 

The proposal is to use offset credits that would come from the planned Rafale fighter jet deal to revive the indigenous jet engine project, people involved in talks between the Indian defence ministry, the Defence Research & Development Organisation andFrench companies told ET. 

Foreign arms companies that sell equipment to India are mandated to invest a portion of the contract cost in the country's defence and aerospace industry. In the case of the Rafale deal, which India and France are negotiating, the offset obligation is 50% of the cost, which would translate to over EUR 3 billion. 

Sources said that since January, several rounds of discussions have taken place between Indian authorities and French company Safran, which developed the M88 engine that powers the Rafale as well as the Shakti engine for Indian advanced light helicopters. 








French experts who assessed the Kaveri engine — which was more or less abandoned for aviation use in 2014 due to shortcomings on power —indicated that 25-30% more work would be needed to make it flight-worthy.

According to the deal being offered, India would not need to spend any more developmental money on the project and Safran would take on the investment, committing to make the Kaveri flight-worthy within 18 months. The proposal is to integrate the upgraded Kaveri with the Mk 1 A version of the Light Combat Aircraft by 2020. 

The air force is committed to buying at least 80 of the LCA Mk 1 A fighters that will meet higher technical requirements than the version inducted this year. It is currently powered by GE 404 engines. 


"The proposal is to have the Kaveri ready for the next version of the LCA that would then boast of an indigenous engine as well. The French are confident that this can be done and are willing to put in money into the project," a person involved in the discussion said.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...t-jet-engine-project/articleshow/53036894.cms

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## PARIKRAMA

thread link
https://defence.pk/threads/france-o...vive-indias-combat-jet-engine-project.437753/

Thats the ET article link


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## randomradio

It appears that the Rafale is competing for the twin engine MII with other jets. It is subject to the completion of the first contract for 36. Parrikar said it. So Rafale is the unofficial choice for MII, it's not official yet. Trappier is making a case for Rafale MII. Which means there is a small possibility Rafales may not be made in India, which s**ks. However, it is most likely a negotiation tactic to get the cheapest deal by having it compete with the Americans and the other Europeans.

A second single engine jet for MII has not been ruled out. Parrikar has ruled out the F-16 based on his Parliament speech though. So I'm thinking Gripen or LSA here. My money and hope are on the LSA.

Even PAK FA MII is possible, note that this is not the FGFA, it's for the Russian version. So we may start manufacturing next gen jets even earlier than expected. Of course, this won't be in direct competition with the above deals. And it's better than buying 2 or 3 squadrons as flyaway since the production line will cater for any delays with the FGFA and the transition will be far smoother once the FGFA is ready. It will help the Super Sukhoi program also.


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## #hydra#

randomradio said:


> I suppose he may be talking about 2 extra squadrons as options.
> 
> 
> 
> Why should anybody mention this?
> 
> 
> 
> There are that many single engine aircraft in contention.
> 
> 
> 
> Combat Hawk isn't a fighter jet, it's a training aid. LCA Mk1 itself is far superior to the Combat Hawk. HAL wants the army to buy the Combat Hawk. They are building it as a competitor to Textron's Scorpion and has huge export potential.
> 
> 
> 
> A radar in a pod it pointless, it will be too small. You can only put specialized radars in pods and we already have something like that called the EL/M 2060P.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you tell me the difference between AESA and pulse doppler?
> 
> 
> 
> It depends on what you mean by future? The Russians are already doing that with GaAs also.
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, he doesn't know anything about radars. Even AESA is a pulse doppler radar.
> 
> 
> 
> MKI will get a NIIP radar. The Russians have better tech.
> 
> Pods are not good for radars because they are too small.
> 
> MKI won't get something like Spectra, but close, like D-29 on the Mig-29. MKI as a Growler already exists. We use the SAP-518 and SAP-14. However, I don't know if it is as capable. Anyway a Growler equivalent aircraft is irrelevant once we get the Rafale. With the right investment, a Rafale or two can carry a large group of MKIs without being detected.


Growler is in a different league man, it's an electronic attack aircraft capable of locating and blinding even high powered modern ground based radars at long ranges. Rafale can't match growler in EW segment. If my memory is correct, growle is the only known f22 killer out there in bvr engagement exercise.


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## randomradio

#hydra# said:


> Growler is in a different league man, it's an electronic attack aircraft capable of locating and blinding even high powered modern ground based radars at long ranges. Rafale can't match growler in EW segment. If my memory is correct, growle is the only known f22 killer out there in bvr engagement exercise.



The Growler is obsolete compared to Rafale.

The Rafale has better hardware, AESA, and this has been upgraded to GaN now. And unlike the Growler, the Rafale is significantly more refined. Rafale basically does what the Growler does, but it does so without informing the enemy that their systems are being jammed. 

The Growler screams while the Rafale only whispers. It's obvious the latter is better.

As for MKI, when I said it may not be as capable as the Growler, there are two reasons for that. One, the MKI is yet to be integrated with its own complete suite, right now it only carries a passive Indian suite with an active pod for jamming. And it is not known how the Russian SAP-14 and 518 behaves with the MKI's Indian/Israeli communication system. Basically, we need sensor fusion on our jet which will be coming with the MLU program.

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## SQ8

randomradio said:


> The Growler is obsolete compared to Rafale.
> 
> The Rafale has better hardware, AESA, and this has been upgraded to GaN now. And unlike the Growler, the Rafale is significantly more refined. Rafale basically does what the Growler does, but it does so without informing the enemy that their systems are being jammed.
> 
> The Growler screams while the Rafale only whispers. It's *obvious the latter is better.*
> 
> As for MKI, when I said it may not be as capable as the Growler, there are two reasons for that. One, the MKI is yet to be integrated with its own complete suite, right now it only carries a passive Indian suite with an active pod for jamming. And it is not known how the Russian SAP-14 and 518 behaves with the MKI's Indian/Israeli communication system. Basically, we need sensor fusion on our jet which will be coming with the MLU program.


Based on what technical specs?
The growler has some of the most advanced EW systems on board along with highly sophisticated encryption and communication capabilities. You are trying to convince people that somehow by the usage of a GaN the RBE2-AA is better than a APG-79V4 on the growler?
Please come up with more solid points that just that. If India is buying it, does not mean it is the best at every aspect of warfare. The IAF chose the Rafale based on a widespread performance, but best at EW it is not.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Oscar said:


> Based on what technical specs?
> The growler has some of the most advanced EW systems on board along with highly sophisticated encryption and communication capabilities. You are trying to convince people that somehow by the usage of a GaN the RBE2-AA is better than a APG-79V4 on the growler?
> Please come up with more solid points that just that. If India is buying it, does not mean it is the best at every aspect of warfare. The IAF chose the Rafale based on a widespread performance, but best at EW it is not.



Most of Growler performances come from ALQ-99 jamming pods. Carbone is better and could be compared to the next generation jammer (NGJ) that US is currently developping. And the french didn't induct Carbone because it is not needed due to SPECTRA. The approach is different, Spectra protect only one plane but we believe that it is smarter.

https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/#post-8172035

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## randomradio

Oscar said:


> Based on what technical specs?
> The growler has some of the most advanced EW systems on board along with highly sophisticated encryption and communication capabilities. You are trying to convince people that somehow by the usage of a GaN the RBE2-AA is better than a APG-79V4 on the growler? Please come up with more solid points that just that.



All the answers are right here. In the very first page.

https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/

Gen Hostage also says the Growler is no longer necessary.
http://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/gen-mike-hostage-on-the-f-35-no-growlers-needed-when-war-starts/


> Growlers are not front-line aircraft for the first week of war, Hostage argues.



http://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/a-gods-eye-view-of-the-battlefield-gen-hostage-on-the-f-35/


> While Growlers, Boeing’s EA-18G, have extremely powerful, broadband jamming capabilities, the F-35’s combination of stealth and highly specific electronic beams is a better combination, Hostage tells me during the interview.
> 
> “If you can get in close, you don’t need Growler-type power. If you’re stealthy enough that they can’t do anything about it and you can get in close, it doesn’t take a huge amount of power to have the effect you need to have,” he says.





> One of the keys to spoofing is, I’ve heard from several operators, being careful to avoid overwhelming the enemy with high-power jamming. That’s another problem with the Growler approach.
> 
> “The high power-jamming is ‘I’ll just overwhelm them with energy since I can’t get in there and do magic things with what they’re sending to me,'” Hostage says.



The Spectra does the 'magic things' unlike Growler. The greater advantage with Spectra is, unlike F-35 which can only attack in the X band in the forward sector, the Rafale can attack in all relevant radio spectrum bands in 360 deg. So even Hostage, while bring constrained by the F-35's yet-to-be complete capabilities, says it's better than Growler, forget talking about the Rafale.

Personally, I think the only drawback the Rafale has is the lack of an internal bay. But the Rafale deals with that problem with active cancellation anyway.

If you want actual hard data in open source, then you won't get anything more than what @Picdelamirand-oil has offered.



> If India is buying it, does not mean it is the best at every aspect of warfare. The IAF chose the Rafale based on a widespread performance, but best at EW it is not.



The IAF MMRCA was chosen based on specific capability that existed only in the 2000-2015 years, where just getting an AESA radar was a big deal. However, we are talking about technologies today that are in the realm of 5th and 6th gen, not the 4th or 4.5th gen era of the MMRCA deal.

Hint: Rafale's frontal RCS is that of a sparrow.

IAF got really lucky when the Rafale won the tender, it could have easily gone the other way. That's why Parrikar has now introduced the L-1 and T-1 brackets for global bids in future tenders. And T-1 will take higher priority than L-1. L-1 is costs, T-1 is technology.

And no, this is not my personal view or that I'm saying it just because we are buying Rafale. Even if we were not buying the Rafale, my view would not have changed. I thought like you did two years ago until Picdel was able to explain what the Rafale can really do. The F-35 and Rafale are the future of electronic warfare for now.

Even the creator of LSA said what you did, now he is saying the exact opposite stuff, even wants the Spectra on his jet. Says the Rafale is currently the best the West has to offer India.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

GaN is not yet in use for RBE2 AA it will be deployed for SPECTRA with F3-R.

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## SQ8

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Most of Growler performances come from ALQ-99 jamming pods. Carbone is better and could be compared to the next generation jammer (NGJ) that US is currently developping. And the french didn't induct Carbone because it is not needed due to SPECTRA. The approach is different, Spectra protect only one plane but we believe that it is smarter.
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/#post-8172035


But then the NGJ is also going on the growler which makes it a moot point.


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## C130

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Most of Growler performances come from ALQ-99 jamming pods. Carbone is better and could be compared to the next generation jammer (NGJ) that US is currently developping. And the french didn't induct Carbone because it is not needed due to SPECTRA. The approach is different, Spectra protect only one plane but we believe that it is smarter.
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/#post-8172035




you wouldn't really even need an area wide jammer like the ALQ-99 or NGJ.

send in 4 Rafales armed with AASM or Spear 3 they'll pick up the radiation coming off the SAM, Spectra jams it so they can't lock onto the Rafale, and the Rafale slews it's RBE2 AA towards the radiation does a SAR scan and then fires AASM or Sprear 3 at them, boom dead SAM sites








this is a lot cheaper than what the U.S would do. you would need multiple EA-18G muiltple other aircraft to fire MALD-Js,JSOWs, and AGM-88

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## randomradio

Oscar said:


> But then the NGJ is also going on the growler which makes it a moot point.



The US needs the NGJ because the F-35/F-22 can only jam in the X band. Spectra can go up from 0.5GHz to 40GHz.

Even then the NGJ is not as good as Spectra for two reasons, it is not a sensor fused device and cannot perform active cancellation. So there is no direct comparison between the two.

In case high power jamming is really necessary, which I doubt will ever be, the French are working on a new radar system which will allow it to carry conformal arrays all over the fuselage. With a transition to GaN, the Rafale will be able to duplicate the NGJ as well, without any aerodynamic penalty + sensor fusion. That's set for 2021, the same date as the NGJ's introduction.

The only advantage for the NGJ is it will power the pod on its own, but the Rafale will take care of that with engine upgrades. Like the recently announced offer to upgrade the Kaveri engine.

X posting Picdel's post


> Kaveri engine is a variable cycle engine, it could be used for Rafale MLU too.



A variable cycle engine does a pretty good job of generating more power when necessary.

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## PARIKRAMA

*First flight of the first Rafale fighter, designed for Qatar*







POSTED BY: BOB SANDERS JULY 7, 2016

On June 28, 2016, from the airport of the company Dassault Aviation had been performed the first flight of the built for Qatar Air Force fighter Dassault Rafale – the two-seater Rafale DQ (serial number DQ01). The plane was flown to flight-test center of the French Air Force airbase in Istres, where they will continue the testing program. For now, the fighter is without the identification signs of Air Force Qatar.

The contract amounting to 6.3 billion euros was signed on May 4, 2015, and foresees the delivery of 24 fighter aircraft Dassault Rafale (18 single-seat Rafale EQ and six two-seater Rafale DQ) to Qatar, as well as missiles air-to-air MICA IR, MICA EM, and Meteor. It also envisages the supply of cruise missiles SCALP-EG and guided bombs, GBU, and AASM. Qatar Air Force should receive the first fighter Rafale in mid-2018 as the pace of deliveries will be one plane per month.

Rafale fighter jets for Qatar significantly differ from those of the Air Force of France and Egypt, therefore, they will undergo extensive and continuous testing program. *A number of systems are being tested, like the helmet-mounted target designation system, which is similar to that used in Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.*

http://www.wingsjournal.com/first-flight-first-rafale-fighter-designed-qatar

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> *First flight of the first Rafale fighter, designed for Qatar*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> POSTED BY: BOB SANDERS JULY 7, 2016
> 
> On June 28, 2016, from the airport of the company Dassault Aviation had been performed the first flight of the built for Qatar Air Force fighter Dassault Rafale – the two-seater Rafale DQ (serial number DQ01). The plane was flown to flight-test center of the French Air Force airbase in Istres, where they will continue the testing program. For now, the fighter is without the identification signs of Air Force Qatar.
> 
> The contract amounting to 6.3 billion euros was signed on May 4, 2015, and foresees the delivery of 24 fighter aircraft Dassault Rafale (18 single-seat Rafale EQ and six two-seater Rafale DQ) to Qatar, as well as missiles air-to-air MICA IR, MICA EM, and Meteor. It also envisages the supply of cruise missiles SCALP-EG and guided bombs, GBU, and AASM. Qatar Air Force should receive the first fighter Rafale in mid-2018 as the pace of deliveries will be one plane per month.
> 
> Rafale fighter jets for Qatar significantly differ from those of the Air Force of France and Egypt, therefore, they will undergo extensive and continuous testing program. *A number of systems are being tested, like the helmet-mounted target designation system, which is similar to that used in Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.*
> 
> http://www.wingsjournal.com/first-flight-first-rafale-fighter-designed-qatar



Any News about Indian Rafale deal

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> *A number of systems are being tested, like the helmet-mounted target designation system, which is similar to that used in Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.*


TopSight?

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## PARIKRAMA

PARIKRAMA said:


> *A number of systems are being tested, like the helmet-mounted target designation system, which is similar to that used in Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.*



Does this confirm that Indian customised F3R systems are getting tested via Qatar first Rafale flight F3R version?



Abingdonboy said:


> TopSight?


i think much beyond topsight.. seems our F3R customization is in a way getting validated via this test flight..

look at the timeline.. they start tests now and deliver in 2018 or may be in late 2017..

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## Stephen Cohen

randomradio said:


> Even the creator of LSA said what you did, now he is saying the exact opposite stuff, even wants the Spectra on his jet. Says the Rafale is currently the best the West has to offer India.



What is LSA


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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> Any News about Indian Rafale deal


We have to wait for DM MP ... file is pending with him for some good time.. May be closer to August-September, we may see signing...

Price and package is already locked..
Safran offer is already a step in positive direction.. I guess another round of secret meeting is required for the engine part..

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> i think much beyond topsight.. seems our F3R customization is in a way getting validated via this test flight..
> 
> look at the timeline.. they start tests now and deliver in 2018 or may be in late 2017..


I am assuming though that it would be the TopSight HMD for the IAF's Rafales in line with the MiG-29K, MiG-29UPG and Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s.

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> We have to wait for DM MP ... file is pending with him for some good time.. May be closer to August-September, we may see signing...
> 
> Price and package is already locked..
> Safran offer is already a step in positive direction.. I guess another round of secret meeting is required for the engine part..



What about the loss of time ; Isn t that Hurting IAF

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## [Bregs]

*France offers to kickstart Kaveri engine for indigenous Tejas aircraft*

France has offered to help India revive the unsuccessful Kaveri engine project for indigenous Tejas aircraft* and a host of other high-end collaboration as part of the offsets in the multi-billion Euro Rafale fighter plane deal which is now in the final stages.

Defence sources said the file on the purchase of the 36 Rafale aircraft in a fly-away condition from France has been finalised and is likely to be put up before Prime Minister Narendra Modi soon.

The estimated cost of the deal is about 7.89 billion Euros and entails a 50 per cent offset clause.*

Under the offset agreement, which was discussed last year, the French side has made a 30 per cent offset commitment for military aerospace research and development programmes and the rest 20 per cent for making components of Rafales here.

The offsets will be carried out by French companies Safran, Thales, MBDA and Dassault, all part of the Rafale project.

As per the initial agreed points, the French have offered to provide stealth, radar and thrust vectoring for missiles technologies besides others to DRDO and domestic defence firms.

“The French government has in principle agreed on these points under the offset commitments. Once a final contract for 36 Rafale aircraft is signed, the French government will give subject wise clearance and concrete talks will start,” a defence source said.

The French have also agreed in principle to collaborate on the Kaveri engine which lacks the real power thrust needed to fly the Tejas.

An upgraded Kaveri engine with 90 kN thrust compared to the existing 72 kN can be developed with French cooperation which can eventually be used for Tejas which currently uses an American engine.

“The negotiations on offsets were carried out last year with DRDO and some other agencies. Once the contract for the Rafales is signed, there will be a six months window to finalise the offset,” a source said.

The French are hoping that they will have a bigger share in the Indian defence market and see the Rafale contract as a great breakthrough. They are also hoping that India will eventually go in for more Rafale aircraft, possibly under the ‘Make in India’ route.

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ngine-for-indegenious-tejas-aircraft-2899655/

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## Agent_47

Stephen Cohen said:


> What about the loss of time ; Isn t that Hurting IAF


Not much in my opinion. Even with 2013-14 contract signing estimate second sqd was estimated around 2019-20, Because it was HAL made. Not that two sqd are imported same can be true.


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## BON PLAN

#hydra# said:


> Growler is in a different league man, it's an electronic attack aircraft capable of locating and blinding even high powered modern ground based radars at long ranges. Rafale can't match growler in EW segment. If my memory is correct, growle is the only known f22 killer out there in bvr engagement exercise.


? any source for that? I've read some months ago that a german EF "killed" at least one F22.... true? not true? in BVR? WVR? 

And all trials between F22 and onother planes were under US rules only...


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## randomradio

Stephen Cohen said:


> What is LSA



Light Stealth Aircraft. A new light 5th gen aircraft.


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## Taygibay

^^^ Like with or without the Lüneberg lens, to pick one example.

Great evening all, Tay.


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## randomradio

SvenSvensonov said:


> An F/A-18F (lot 27 prototype EA-18G) did indeed put an F-22 into the dirt with an AIM-120.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We don't know the details of the engagement as none have been made public.





Taygibay said:


> ^^^ Like with or without the Lüneberg lens, to pick one example.
> 
> Great evening all, Tay.



And the T-38.


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## Taygibay

^^^ Well, there's a very specific reason for that, namely the format of Langley-Eutis AFB.

"The T-38s are typically flown by Raptor pilots who are the most qualified to challenge the Raptor,
and exploit any and all perceived air-to-air vulnerabilities."​From this excellent source : https://theaviationist.com/2014/11/26/f-22-vs-t-38-talon-at-langley/

But very nice of you to remember that gilf of a fighter. Its designer was the same guy that gave us
this marvel






and that one






Edgar Schmued ( though others like Gasich were essential too ).
Just on account of its thrust ratio, the N-156 has endured 7 decades and will be over at least 75 years
old as a design when retired, more like 80-something ( maybe more ), the same as a human lifetime ! ! !
In essence, the Talon is the F-16's precursor.

But I diverge, sorry!

And good night, Tay.


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## PARIKRAMA

*Saab Gripen MII proposal details*

Latest offer details

Saab has offerred to bring entire aerospace ecosystem to India for a period of 100 years
Its offering to set up Industrial Network with Indian pvt sector
It also wants to setup Aeronautic training academy
Saab has described the following steps
When the contract is signed , same day a dedicated Gripen line for India will be setup in Sweden
Indian Industry participation and Skill training will happen in Sweden in this line.
Once the infrastructure in India is up and running then the whole line and skilled manpower will be shifted
Estimated timeline for the whole process - Minimum 4.5 Years - Maximum 7 years

Saab will then start with Kit based assembly in Indian line
By providing knowledge and building capability from the bottom of the supply chain, the kits would be slowly replaced by local production from raw materials.
Saab wants the offer to be G2G
Saab is selling its USP as
Traditional MLU is 15-20 years
Gripen has split avionics architecture that separates flight control system and tactical systems
this implies improvements can be undertaken in tactical avionics without interfering with flight characteristics
Thus Gripen can be upgraded every 2-3 years

DM MP commented after seeing all this
India wont wait for 5-7 years for Indian production line
Any fighter made in Indian production line must start rolling by 4th year
in case of exceptional delay and issues agreed by MOD then max by 5th year
Any more delay and it will be financial penalty
Other than Skill there is no technology upgradation in industrial R&D or transfer of cutting edge tech to India
The ecosystem and skilled manpower is already getting created by LCA and ADA has already cleared the plan to convert Indian ecosystem by making HAL and other agencies to be lead integrator. 
Pvt sector will be sub assemblers and assemblers.
The short duration upgrade every 2-3 years cost was asked by DM MP and Saab could not offer any proper figure or any estimate.
DM politely informed that present form of proposal needs much more as competing Single Jet engine offer is presently superior.

@MilSpec @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @zebra7 @anant_s @dadeechi @BON PLAN @Spectre @fsayed @GURU DUTT @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @others

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## fsayed

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Saab Gripen MII proposal details*
> 
> Latest offer details
> 
> Saab has offerred to bring entire aerospace ecosystem to India for a period of 100 years
> Its offering to set up Industrial Network with Indian pvt sector
> It also wants to setup Aeronautic training academy
> Saab has described the following steps
> When the contract is signed , same day a dedicated Gripen line for India will be setup in Sweden
> Indian Industry participation and Skill training will happen in Sweden in this line.
> Once the infrastructure in India is up and running then the whole line and skilled manpower will be shifted
> Estimated timeline for the whole process - Minimum 4.5 Years - Maximum 7 years
> 
> Saab will then start with Kit based assembly in Indian line
> By providing knowledge and building capability from the bottom of the supply chain, the kits would be slowly replaced by local production from raw materials.
> Saab wants the offer to be G2G
> Saab is selling its USP as
> Traditional MLU is 15-20 years
> Gripen has split avionics architecture that separates flight control system and tactical systems
> this implies improvements can be undertaken in tactical avionics without interfering with flight characteristics
> Thus Gripen can be upgraded every 2-3 years
> 
> DM MP commented after seeing all this
> India wont wait for 5-7 years for Indian production line
> Any fighter made in Indian production line must start rolling by 4th year
> in case of exceptional delay and issues agreed by MOD then max by 5th year
> Any more delay and it will be financial penalty
> Other than Skill there is no technology upgradation in industrial R&D or transfer of cutting edge tech to India
> The ecosystem and skilled manpower is already getting created by LCA and ADA has already cleared the plan to convert Indian ecosystem by making HAL and other agencies to be lead integrator.
> Pvt sector will be sub assemblers and assemblers.
> The short duration upgrade every 2-3 years cost was asked by DM MP and Saab could not offer any proper figure or any estimate.
> DM politely informed that present form of proposal needs much more as competing Single Jet engine offer is presently superior.
> 
> @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @zebra7 @anant_s @dadeechi @BON PLAN @Spectre @fsayed @GURU DUTT @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @others


If this is the case junk saab jas39 gripen go for f16 or f18 as they r providing better return and technologies


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## SpArK

More than 5 yrs since i started this thread,

https://defence.pk/threads/india-selects-ef-rafale-for-mmrca-shortlist.105832/

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## BON PLAN

Abingdonboy said:


> TopSight?


If it is the same product for Qatar and India, it can't be an Israeli's helmet.
I was convinced India will choose an Israeli's one for communality reasons....

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## anant_s

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Saab Gripen MII proposal details*
> 
> Latest offer details
> 
> Saab has offerred to bring entire aerospace ecosystem to India for a period of 100 years
> Its offering to set up Industrial Network with Indian pvt sector
> It also wants to setup Aeronautic training academy
> Saab has described the following steps
> When the contract is signed , same day a dedicated Gripen line for India will be setup in Sweden
> Indian Industry participation and Skill training will happen in Sweden in this line.
> Once the infrastructure in India is up and running then the whole line and skilled manpower will be shifted
> Estimated timeline for the whole process - Minimum 4.5 Years - Maximum 7 years
> 
> Saab will then start with Kit based assembly in Indian line
> By providing knowledge and building capability from the bottom of the supply chain, the kits would be slowly replaced by local production from raw materials.
> Saab wants the offer to be G2G
> Saab is selling its USP as
> Traditional MLU is 15-20 years
> Gripen has split avionics architecture that separates flight control system and tactical systems
> this implies improvements can be undertaken in tactical avionics without interfering with flight characteristics
> Thus Gripen can be upgraded every 2-3 years
> 
> DM MP commented after seeing all this
> India wont wait for 5-7 years for Indian production line
> Any fighter made in Indian production line must start rolling by 4th year
> in case of exceptional delay and issues agreed by MOD then max by 5th year
> Any more delay and it will be financial penalty
> Other than Skill there is no technology upgradation in industrial R&D or transfer of cutting edge tech to India
> The ecosystem and skilled manpower is already getting created by LCA and ADA has already cleared the plan to convert Indian ecosystem by making HAL and other agencies to be lead integrator.
> Pvt sector will be sub assemblers and assemblers.
> The short duration upgrade every 2-3 years cost was asked by DM MP and Saab could not offer any proper figure or any estimate.
> DM politely informed that present form of proposal needs much more as competing Single Jet engine offer is presently superior.
> 
> @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @zebra7 @anant_s @dadeechi @BON PLAN @Spectre @fsayed @GURU DUTT @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @others



It looks a good proposal, but it perhaps has come about 15 years too late.
I may be naive here to comment, but it looks SAAB is trying to use India as a manufacturing base for developing new generation low cost light fighters for export markets of Latin America and Africa.
We have read a lot about SAAB pitching its products but point is how does India see its air warfare threats of future. Does a fourth generation product with limited future development scope fit into military doctrine of India? I'm not sure of answers given projects like AMCA, LCA mark 2, FGFA, Rafale etc are on immediate horizon. Secondly i'm sure in all this chaos, someone in administration must be sensible enough to think of consolidation and reducing the number of platforms.
I recall @MilSpec post, where he explained that how planners in pakistan have been really wise to choose JF 17 as a single platform and then devise strategies around it. I'm not fully aware of JF17 capabilities, but surely it is a good move to use a single platform as your workhorse and then have a fleet of special utility platforms in limited numbers. It cuts down on cost and clutter in thinking.
Third, whoever wishes to sell India a technology or product must take into account how the platform can be of use to Navy (in shore based and Deck based roles).
Somehow when i ask myself these questions, only Rafale seems to be the logical choice. But future holds is an unknown, but surely someone must now start to clear all the confusion that is surrounding the establishment and define what 3 or 4 (at max) platforms are going to be part India's fighter fleet for next 25 years or so.
@Abingdonboy What do you say?

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## Param

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Saab Gripen MII proposal details*
> 
> Latest offer details
> 
> Saab has offerred to bring entire aerospace ecosystem to India for a period of 100 years
> Its offering to set up Industrial Network with Indian pvt sector
> It also wants to setup Aeronautic training academy
> Saab has described the following steps
> When the contract is signed , same day a dedicated Gripen line for India will be setup in Sweden
> Indian Industry participation and Skill training will happen in Sweden in this line.
> Once the infrastructure in India is up and running then the whole line and skilled manpower will be shifted
> Estimated timeline for the whole process - Minimum 4.5 Years - Maximum 7 years
> 
> Saab will then start with Kit based assembly in Indian line
> By providing knowledge and building capability from the bottom of the supply chain, the kits would be slowly replaced by local production from raw materials.
> Saab wants the offer to be G2G
> Saab is selling its USP as
> Traditional MLU is 15-20 years
> Gripen has split avionics architecture that separates flight control system and tactical systems
> this implies improvements can be undertaken in tactical avionics without interfering with flight characteristics
> Thus Gripen can be upgraded every 2-3 years
> 
> DM MP commented after seeing all this
> India wont wait for 5-7 years for Indian production line
> Any fighter made in Indian production line must start rolling by 4th year
> in case of exceptional delay and issues agreed by MOD then max by 5th year
> Any more delay and it will be financial penalty
> Other than Skill there is no technology upgradation in industrial R&D or transfer of cutting edge tech to India
> The ecosystem and skilled manpower is already getting created by LCA and ADA has already cleared the plan to convert Indian ecosystem by making HAL and other agencies to be lead integrator.
> Pvt sector will be sub assemblers and assemblers.
> The short duration upgrade every 2-3 years cost was asked by DM MP and Saab could not offer any proper figure or any estimate.
> DM politely informed that present form of proposal needs much more as competing Single Jet engine offer is presently superior.
> 
> @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @zebra7 @anant_s @dadeechi @BON PLAN @Spectre @fsayed @GURU DUTT @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @others





PARIKRAMA said:


> *Saab Gripen MII proposal details*
> 
> Latest offer details
> 
> Saab has offerred to bring entire aerospace ecosystem to India for a period of 100 years
> Its offering to set up Industrial Network with Indian pvt sector
> It also wants to setup Aeronautic training academy
> Saab has described the following steps
> When the contract is signed , same day a dedicated Gripen line for India will be setup in Sweden
> Indian Industry participation and Skill training will happen in Sweden in this line.
> Once the infrastructure in India is up and running then the whole line and skilled manpower will be shifted
> Estimated timeline for the whole process - Minimum 4.5 Years - Maximum 7 years
> 
> Saab will then start with Kit based assembly in Indian line
> By providing knowledge and building capability from the bottom of the supply chain, the kits would be slowly replaced by local production from raw materials.
> Saab wants the offer to be G2G
> Saab is selling its USP as
> Traditional MLU is 15-20 years
> Gripen has split avionics architecture that separates flight control system and tactical systems
> this implies improvements can be undertaken in tactical avionics without interfering with flight characteristics
> Thus Gripen can be upgraded every 2-3 years
> 
> DM MP commented after seeing all this
> India wont wait for 5-7 years for Indian production line
> Any fighter made in Indian production line must start rolling by 4th year
> in case of exceptional delay and issues agreed by MOD then max by 5th year
> Any more delay and it will be financial penalty
> Other than Skill there is no technology upgradation in industrial R&D or transfer of cutting edge tech to India
> The ecosystem and skilled manpower is already getting created by LCA and ADA has already cleared the plan to convert Indian ecosystem by making HAL and other agencies to be lead integrator.
> Pvt sector will be sub assemblers and assemblers.
> The short duration upgrade every 2-3 years cost was asked by DM MP and Saab could not offer any proper figure or any estimate.
> DM politely informed that present form of proposal needs much more as competing Single Jet engine offer is presently superior.
> 
> @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @zebra7 @anant_s @dadeechi @BON PLAN @Spectre @fsayed @GURU DUTT @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @others



''DM politely informed that present form of proposal needs much more as competing Single Jet engine offer is presently superior.''

So is F-16 coming as Make in India.But MP has been quoted as opposed to it.So,is it Modi's special interest.

Indian Air Force also visited Israel.So is an Israeli version of F-16 coming

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## [Bregs]

are bhai made in France rafales deal toh final kar lo, make in india deal baad main kar lena

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## Tameem

[Bregs] said:


> are bhai made in France rafales deal toh final kar lo, make in india deal baad main kar lena



That will be the end result one day.....Hwvr At the moment, India getting its required quota of "100 Jotay and 100 Piaz" necessary to reach that fruitful day

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## PARIKRAMA

Param said:


> ''DM politely informed that present form of proposal needs much more as competing Single Jet engine offer is presently superior.''
> 
> So is F-16 coming as Make in India.But MP has been quoted as opposed to it.So,is it Modi's special interest.
> 
> Indian Air Force also visited Israel.So is an Israeli version of F-16 coming



Negotiation technique.. Trying to see who gives us better...

Whichever is the winner a lot Israeli stuff will anyway go into it..

No doubt LM atm is ahead of Saab and Boeing with its plan of F16 and F35 .. But i feel perhaps a new domestic design might win the race.. We have to wait and see..

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> Negotiation technique.. Trying to see who gives us better...
> 
> Whichever is the winner a lot Israeli stuff will anyway go into it..
> 
> No doubt LM atm is ahead of Saab and Boeing with its plan of F16 and F35 .. But i feel perhaps a new domestic design might win the race.. We have to wait and see..



Will the Rafale deal be signed BEFORE or the deals for Two Planes

Ie Rafale and an American plane will happen at the same time

I mean ; is the Rafale deal getting delayed because of US offers

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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> Will the Rafale deal be signed BEFORE or the deals for Two Planes
> 
> Ie Rafale and an American plane will happen at the same time
> 
> I mean ; is the Rafale deal getting delayed because of US offers


Rafale deal will be signed first.. The MII will happen max by March 2017

No Rafale is not stalled bcz of USA offer.. Its rather bcz file is pending with DM MP from May end onwards..

there was suppose to be a note sent by DM MP according his observation and requesting approval from CCS who would then approve and Le Drian would fly down to sign the contract.

The moment DM MP sends the note, then we have to wait for CCS meeting and then for the contract signing ceremony..

US offers will continue but as i said earlier DM Mp first choice is not any single engine jet plane (either from LM or from Saab) or twin engined plane(Boeing F18).. His wish list is the General Atomics jet powered drones... His eyes are still on Avenger and Predator variants. His kitty is flush with funds and requirements for over 100 such drones. DM will bargain hard on those over any other offer up front.. After all he would like to take benefit of being MTCR member...

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## Taygibay

PARIKRAMA said:


> Saab has offerred to bring entire aerospace ecosystem to India for a period of 100 years



I call total B.S. on that one item alone!








Sorry, Tay.​

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## #hydra#

Fed up with rafale drama,sombody close this thread for god sake.....

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## ayesha.a

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Saab Gripen MII proposal details*
> 
> [*]Saab has offerred to bring entire aerospace ecosystem to India for a period of 100 years







Taygibay said:


> I call total B.S. on that one item alone!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, Tay.​



Right, I wonder what happens at the end of that 100 years. They pack up and go back?

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## Taygibay

ayesha.a said:


> Right, I wonder what happens at the end of that 100 years. They pack up and go back?



LOLOLOL, probably! Sorta like leasing a Saturn but with the whole of Saab?
And let's not forget that renting is always more expensive in the end ... 

 Good day to you, Tay.

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## Spectre

ayesha.a said:


> Right, I wonder what happens at the end of that 100 years. They pack up and go back?



100 years is the max they give planet earth

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## egodoc222

Spectre said:


> 100 years is the max they give planet earth


Yeah later,Saab may help up build a warp drive...lol

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## Abingdonboy

BON PLAN said:


> If it is the same product for Qatar and India, it can't be an Israeli's helmet.
> I was convinced India will choose an Israeli's one for communality reasons....


Well the TopSight-I is already made in India (with the Samtal-Thales JV) and operational on the IAF's MiG-29UPG and Mirage 2000-5 MK.2 and the Indian Navy's MiG-29Ks so it seems the more logical choice for the IAF's (and IN's) Rafales where commonaility is concerned AND it has already been tested on the Rafale. 







The only Israeli HMSD in Indian service is the DASH III intergrated with the LCA.

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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> Well the TopSight-I is already made in India (with the Samtal-Thales JV) and operational on the IAF's MiG-29UPG and Mirage 2000-5 MK.2 and the Indian Navy's MiG-29Ks so it seems the more logical choice for the IAF's (and IN's) Rafales where commonaility is concerned AND it has already been tested on the Rafale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only Israeli HMSD in Indian service is the DASH III intergrated with the LCA.



What about SU 30 MKI 

Which HMDS it uses


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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> What about SU 30 MKI
> 
> Which HMDS it uses


Sadly no HMSD used on the MKI as of now, the TopSight-I is the most likely to feature post the "Super" upgrade but then I have also heard that the HMSD being devlpped for the PAK-FA may be used but I have no specs or confirmation of that.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> Well the TopSight-I is already made in India (with the Samtal-Thales JV) and operational on the IAF's MiG-29UPG and Mirage 2000-5 MK.2 and the Indian Navy's MiG-29Ks so it seems the more logical choice for the IAF's (and IN's) Rafales where commonaility is concerned AND it has already been tested on the Rafale.
> The only Israeli HMSD in Indian service is the DASH III intergrated with the LCA.


Could be this one also:
http://www.thalesvisionix.com/




*GAME CHANGING*
*SCORPION® HELMET MOUNTED CUEING SYSTEM*

World’s only full-color helmet display system
Rapid aircraft integration
Open architecture
Latest technology
Lowest procurement and lifecycle costs
*UNLEASHING PILOT POTENTIAL*
*SCORPION® HELMET MOUNTED CUEING SYSTEM*

Full-color, programmable flight and ground symbology
24-hour day and night capability
Sensor video capability
Hybrid, optical-inertial motion tracking
Rapid target acquisitions
Highest accuracy/Lowest latency
*RAPID DEPLOYMENT*
*SCORPION® HELMET MOUNTED CUEING SYSTEM*

No avionics bay intrusions
On-site, fully programmable symbology generator
Hybrid, optical-inertial motion tracking
Interchangeable among pilots
*SCORPION®*
*HELMET MOUNTED CUEING SYSTEM*

HMIT & Dragon Spear: Programs currently in full-rate production
Fielded by aircraft integrators and pilots
Integrates with Gentex® and other Fixed- and Rotary-Wing Helmets






http://www.thalesvisionix.com/wp-content/uploads/ThalesVisionix_Scorpion_brochure_web.pdf

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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Could be this one also:
> http://www.thalesvisionix.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *GAME CHANGING*
> *SCORPION® HELMET MOUNTED CUEING SYSTEM*
> 
> World’s only full-color helmet display system
> Rapid aircraft integration
> Open architecture
> Latest technology
> Lowest procurement and lifecycle costs
> *UNLEASHING PILOT POTENTIAL*
> *SCORPION® HELMET MOUNTED CUEING SYSTEM*
> 
> Full-color, programmable flight and ground symbology
> 24-hour day and night capability
> Sensor video capability
> Hybrid, optical-inertial motion tracking
> Rapid target acquisitions
> Highest accuracy/Lowest latency
> *RAPID DEPLOYMENT*
> *SCORPION® HELMET MOUNTED CUEING SYSTEM*
> 
> No avionics bay intrusions
> On-site, fully programmable symbology generator
> Hybrid, optical-inertial motion tracking
> Interchangeable among pilots
> *SCORPION®*
> *HELMET MOUNTED CUEING SYSTEM*
> 
> HMIT & Dragon Spear: Programs currently in full-rate production
> Fielded by aircraft integrators and pilots
> Integrates with Gentex® and other Fixed- and Rotary-Wing Helmets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.thalesvisionix.com/wp-content/uploads/ThalesVisionix_Scorpion_brochure_web.pdf


I'm a bit confused, is this the same as the GENTEX Scorpion? Has Thales bought the rights to it or is it the otherway around? Did GENTEX buy the rights for the US market?

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## [Bregs]

Abingdonboy said:


> Sadly no HMSD used on the MKI as of now, the TopSight-I is the most likely to feature post the "Super" upgrade but then I have also heard that the HMSD being devlpped for the PAK-FA may be used but I have no specs or confirmation of that.



su 30 mki uses this SURA Helmet-Mounted Target Designation System (HMTDS), Is this good or not ?

http://spetstechnoexport.com/catalogues/145

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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> Sadly no HMSD used on the MKI as of now, the TopSight-I is the most likely to feature post the "Super" upgrade but then I have also heard that the HMSD being devlpped for the PAK-FA may be used but I have no specs or confirmation of that.



I googled and found SURA HMS on MKI ; same as MIG 21 Bison 

BTW what about Jaguar

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm a bit confused, is this the same as the GENTEX Scorpion? Has Thales bought the rights to it or is it the otherway around? Did GENTEX buy the rights for the US market?



https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/cont...ay-and-motion-tracking-businesses-gentex-corp


> Arlington, VA – November 5th, 2012 – Thales announced that it has signed a definitive agreement to acquire the Helmet Mounted Display (HMD) and motion tracking businesses from Gentex Corporation. Called “Visionix,” the combined group designs, develops and delivers HMD, inertial tracking and sensor fusion technology for defense and aerospace applications, along with others that require precision motion tracking, to customers worldwide. Visionix operates from locations in Aurora, Illinois and Billerica, Massachusetts.
> The acquisition of Visionix will give Thales the ability to offer highly capable HMD technology amidst rigorous budget constraints within the market. Visionix’ motion tracking technology (sold under the brand name “InterSense”) integrated into its Scorpion™ Helmet Mounted Cueing System provides an optimal solution of choice for pilots and integrators that allows for rapid deployment as well as affordable procurement and life cycle costs.


The full color is a Thales technology.

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## DESERT FIGHTER

[Bregs] said:


> su 30 mki uses this SURA Helmet-Mounted Target Designation System (HMTDS), Is this good or not ?
> 
> http://spetstechnoexport.com/catalogues/145


SURA-I








Looks like the Chinese produce it too:

TK-14--- older helmet -- this was actually proposed by the Chinese for JF.





New Chinese HMD;

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## Abingdonboy

[Bregs] said:


> su 30 mki uses this SURA Helmet-Mounted Target Designation System (HMTDS), Is this good or not ?
> 
> http://spetstechnoexport.com/catalogues/145





Stephen Cohen said:


> I googled and found SURA HMS on MKI ; same as MIG 21 Bison


True it is used on the IAF's MiG-29Bs also (UPGs use the TopSight-I) but it isn't a true HMSD like the DASH III/TopSight which is what I thought @Stephen Cohen was asking.

It's pretty outdated but works for cueing HOBS missiles, it doesn't provide any form of situational awareness though.



Stephen Cohen said:


> BTW what about Jaguar


The DARIN III standard Jags are slated to get the TopSight-I HMSD afaik.



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/cont...ay-and-motion-tracking-businesses-gentex-corp
> 
> The full color is a Thales technology.


Thanks for the info sir. 

The point remains though, that for the sake of commonaility the TopSight-I makes more sense for the IAF's Rafales unless the Scorpion will be used for other IAF/IN platforms in the future (like the FGFA or AMCA or MKI). That said, te next gen platforms are likely to feature advanced HMSD similar to that found on the F-35 (interestingly though the F-22s are set to get the Scorpion).

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## Picdelamirand-oil

The F-35 HMDS is too heavy for ejection.

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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> The F-35 HMDS is too heavy for ejection.


It may be today but it is clearly the future of airpower and will be the norm for the next generation of aircraft (AMCA, FGFA etc) that will be devloped and in service in the coming decades.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

France do not use these kind of helmet because we want one which is under 1.3 kg with everything (night vision...etc)

1.3 kg at 11g = 14.3 kg

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## randomradio

Stephen Cohen said:


> What about SU 30 MKI
> 
> Which HMDS it uses





Abingdonboy said:


> Sadly no HMSD used on the MKI as of now, the TopSight-I is the most likely to feature post the "Super" upgrade but then I have also heard that the HMSD being devlpped for the PAK-FA may be used but I have no specs or confirmation of that.



The MKI uses the Russian SURA-K.

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## randomradio

An old tweet from Saurav Jha

_Oh and don't forget the Air force, which in the name of 2-front war is now looking to bring in not one but two imported fighters._

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## Stephen Cohen

randomradio said:


> An old tweet from Saurav Jha
> 
> _Oh and don't forget the Air force, which in the name of 2-front war is now looking to bring in not one but two imported fighters._



We need to take a decision soon ; we are wasting time

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## Taj_91

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> The F-35 HMDS is too heavy for ejection.


Why can't just have a simple exoskeleton support from the shoulders? Will the movements get hindered? Like during ejection the support becomes rigid, that way won't hinder the pilots during normal times..


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## randomradio

Stephen Cohen said:


> We need to take a decision soon ; we are wasting time



The decision will be taken only in 2017 for MII.



Taj_91 said:


> Why can't just have a simple exoskeleton support from the shoulders? Will the movements get hindered? Like during ejection the support becomes rigid, that way won't hinder the pilots during normal times..



Exoskeletons also have weight you know.


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## Stephen Cohen

randomradio said:


> The decision will be taken only in 2017 for MII.



And what about the First part of the deal ie 36 Rafales --Off the shelf


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## randomradio

Stephen Cohen said:


> And what about the First part of the deal ie 36 Rafales --Off the shelf



Next month.

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## Stephen Cohen

randomradio said:


> Next month.



INDEPENDENCE day Gift

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## Taj_91

randomradio said:


> Exoskeletons also have weight you know.


I am not saying full suit type. Just some rods transferring the weight from neck to shoulders. It's the neck that is the weakest link. Still won't work?


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## BON PLAN

Taj_91 said:


> Why can't just have a simple exoskeleton support from the shoulders? Will the movements get hindered? Like during ejection the support becomes rigid, that way won't hinder the pilots during normal times..


It is more weight .


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## Taj_91

BON PLAN said:


> It is more weight .


Remove the boot and put two rods on the shoulders.


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## randomradio

Taj_91 said:


> I am not saying full suit type. Just some rods transferring the weight from neck to shoulders. It's the neck that is the weakest link. Still won't work?



The weight increases by 11 times in case of Rafale, 7-9 times in case of the F-35. And the Rafale pilot has to sustain those Gs for longer periods of time.

Exoskeleton tech has not come up to that level yet. Every gram matters.

It's better to reduce the weight of the helmet.


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## SvenSvensonov

randomradio said:


> Exoskeleton tech has not come up to that level yet.



 Oh f*ck my adherence to classified information handling laws.

I work in this field, we've gone far beyond this:

















You might know more about aviation then I ever gave enough craps about to know, but I'm pretty damn good with this particular subject. Yes, we have progressed to a point that we can reduce the weight bearing load on a pilot's shoulders (or back or areas of necessity) without causing undo stress upon, say ejection. But what's the need? It's a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

Might dig up a few of my old threads on the matter for you.

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## randomradio

SvenSvensonov said:


> Oh f*ck my adherence to classified information handling laws.
> 
> I work in this field, we've gone far beyond this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might know more about aviation then I ever gave enough craps about to know, but I'm pretty damn good with this particular subject. Yes, we have progressed to a point that we can reduce the weight bearing load on a pilot's shoulders (or back or areas of necessity) without causing undo stress upon, say ejection. But what's the need? It's a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.
> 
> Might dig up a few of my old threads on the matter for you.



Now integrate this with a G-suit and space suit and make it as light as a feather. And the joints should be able to handle up to 16G, I think that's easy, but the weight increase should be minimal.

A 1Kg exoskeleton will increase to 11Kg during flight when a Rafale performs at its limits. And a helmet that weighs 1.3Kg is going to add 14.3Kg on his neck.

So when he ejects at 20G, the combined weight of the exoskeleton and the helmet on the body will be humongous, while his body probably weighs over a ton during ejection. During ejection, the exoskeleton will only serve to add more weight to the pilot, maybe even by 30%.

If you are able to combine an exoskeleton and a G-suit with a max weight of 1.2-1.5Kg while also making it very comfortable at very reasonable prices, then it is realistic for combat pilots to have such suits. Today's G-suits weigh less than 1.4Kg.



> But what's the need? It's a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.



Then you can stick more electronics into his helmet making it easier to access information, that reduces the weight of the cockpit.

Of course, the idea is to remove the pilot completely, making this discussion irrelevant.

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> The weight increases by 11 times in case of Rafale, 7-9 times in case of the F-35. And the Rafale pilot has to sustain those Gs for longer periods of time.
> 
> Exoskeleton tech has not come up to that level yet. Every gram matters.
> 
> It's better to reduce the weight of the helmet.


In the case of F35 : more 7.5G than 9 !!! 
9G is a fantasm for F35 engineers.

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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> In the case of F35 : more 7.5G than 9 !!!
> 9G is a fantasm for F35 engineers.



F-35A can do 9G, only F-35B and C are at 7G and 7.5G.


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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> F-35A can do 9G, only F-35B and C are at 7G and 7.5G.


Not so far.
Only read max 7.6G.

But it's not important. This plane only need a Tornado handling capacity, as it can look and kill the ennemy even before they take off ...


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## PARIKRAMA



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## BON PLAN

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 317031


what is INR please ?


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## Stephen Cohen

BON PLAN said:


> what is INR please ?



Our currency INDIAN RUPEES

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 317031


Honestly I really don't care about the Qty at this moment ! I Just want the tamasha to end and Sign the Damn Contract!! .... Does any one think that the HAL &Turbomeca Signed deal for MRO of Engines have to do any with this the Rafale Deal? (Made in India Clause?)

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## dadeechi

The fruit of patience is always sweet. 36 RAFALEs deal was done long ago.

Its just that it is not being announced for a reason.

Indians would be very happy when the full details emerge.



PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 317031



Even without considering the INR appreciation, the deal was never for 36.

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## itachii

dadeechi said:


> The fruit of patience is always sweet. 36 RAFALEs deal was done long ago.
> 
> Its just that it is not being announced for a reason.
> 
> Indians would be very happy when the full details emerge..



Arey bhai ? what is the reason ?? both @Abingdonboy and @PARIKRAMA sir say the same thing, while never disclosing the *reason *

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## DesiGuy1403

itachii said:


> Arey bhai ? what is the reason ?? both @Abingdonboy and @PARIKRAMA sir say the same thing, while never disclosing the *reason *



yeah, even I hope they can "clarify" with more details

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## Taygibay

itachii said:


> both @Abingdonboy and @PARIKRAMA sir say the same thing, while never disclosing the *reason *





DesiGuy1403 said:


> yeah, even I hope they are "clarify" with more details



Simply put,

A- The deal now really hinges on more than 36 planes and should furthermore
be put in the context of strategic partnership;
B- No details can be left unheeded to so that no one can later find enough blame
to derail the process ( closing stages are a double check exercise );
C- The moment this deal is announced, especially if you hint at follow-up orders,
India's side led by your DM MP loses all leverage to other selling entities;
D- The Indian public opinion is so diverse and critical that no amount of staging
and / or psy ops to make the medecine go down should be spared for the reveal.

And have a great evening both, Tay.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Source based news about LM offer *
(first reported about the meeting in The Hindu newspaper)


Meeting between Marilyn Hewson and FM Arun Jaitley happened last week for over 20 mins
LM latest discussion suggested that India become the global MRO for F16
The assembly line transfer will be completed in less than 3 years 
The first F16 will roll out by 3.5 years from the date of signing the FMS deal from Indian assembly line
The F16 will be customized as India wants and will sport indigenous weapon systems like Astra BVR
Indian order will be further divided into exclusive access to the following
75% of the F16 order will be eligible for F35 purchase under reduced rates post 2022
66% of the F16 order will be eligible for a new fighter F22 E (exports) post 2020-22. to be purchased by only handful of nations (5 in numbers as of now with Japan and India and 3 others with limited purchases)

The export version of F22 E will be first lucrative point of technology being shared between USA for Japan 5th gen program and India's AMCA.
There would be senate approvals required and the export version will have downgraded specs but potency of the F22E vs F22 is not yet defined.
India will need the foundation agreements adherence completely.
It was noted that F16-F35-F22E the whole deal structure has evolved a lot but still need more concrete terms on the same.
FM AJ assured that PM NaMo and DM MP will be appraised about the whole deal structure and he hoped that LM will provide India with a 'meaningful' and 'substantial' technology transfer in any aircraft deal.
FM AJ discussed the above discussion points with DM MP.
DM MP has told LM representative of what his expectations are .. 
To a pointed question about what is the real chance of F22E as it has been in news for some time, LM folks defined that they are studying market prospects and believe India and Japan alone can consume around 150 such devices and net 5 country potential as of now stands close to 250 odd numbers. This number may be further expanded when more Nato allies join in for the F22E orders.
LM was cited a recent example that an aircraft major is willing to invest in domestic engine program. So what is the possibility that LM also does the same and makes a family of Engines which can power all the 3 (F16,F35 and F22E) thereby getting India a high indigenous number. 
LM reply to this was they need to study more to understand if such an arrangement can be made or not as they feel all 3 jets required too much different class of engines. 
A family of engines supporting all different types of fighter jets and which can also power our AMCA program is one of the key points which India is looking at. 
Also India explicitly asked for Radar, Stealth, Communication, Reduced detection capabilities, RAM technology and armaments to be completely shared with partial codes for any meaningful offer.
Again on this point, LM needs clarity from US government and Senate.
To a pointed question on weapon customization, LM said present US weapons latest versions would be supplied and Indian weapon customization can be done. To this DM MP clearly asked without codes being shared how can India configure Astra and NG ARM etc and recertify the plane.. LM did not reply to that.


It looks like DM MP wont agree for the LM deal at present structure due to uncertainity and lack of clarity on terms.
F22E is like a carrot dangled for the fact that India has not fallen for the F35.

India is very close to freezing FGFA project investments and release the funds. Talks are already going on for PAKFA stage 1 some numbers for procurement in 2021-25 period before stage 2 FGFA is made in Indian assembly line. The efforts seems to undercut this PAKFA stage 1 numbers by pitching in F22E

One thing what is clear is that despite of public campaigns by LM and Saab, DM MP seems a man who had not fallen for such facade and is bargaining hard to see how much willing LM, Saab and perhaps Boeing is in reality willing to offer a good economical package to India. With terms as desired by India and are agreeable to Indian side without giving up control, access and shelling out a blank cheque.

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @MilSpec @Vergennes @Taygibay @Nilgiri @Stephen Cohen @BON PLAN @dadeechi @others

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## Stephen Cohen

@PARIKRAMA 

With regard to the US ; some deal will happen -- which plane we cannot say

That is the whole point of an ENHANCED partnership 

Secondly it looks like Rafale MII will not happen ; just 54 or 80 odd Off the shelf

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Source based news about LM offer *
> (first reported about the meeting in The Hindu newspaper)
> 
> 
> Meeting between Marilyn Hewson and FM Arun Jaitley happened last week for over 20 mins
> LM latest discussion suggested that India become the global MRO for F16
> The assembly line transfer will be completed in less than 3 years
> The first F16 will roll out by 3.5 years from the date of signing the FMS deal from Indian assembly line
> The F16 will be customized as India wants and will sport indigenous weapon systems like Astra BVR
> Indian order will be further divided into exclusive access to the following
> 75% of the F16 order will be eligible for F35 purchase under reduced rates post 2022
> 66% of the F16 order will be eligible for a new fighter F22 E (exports) post 2020-22. to be purchased by only handful of nations (5 in numbers as of now with Japan and India and 3 others with limited purchases)
> 
> The export version of F22 E will be first lucrative point of technology being shared between USA for Japan 5th gen program and India's AMCA.
> There would be senate approvals required and the export version will have downgraded specs but potency of the F22E vs F22 is not yet defined.
> India will need the foundation agreements adherence completely.
> It was noted that F16-F35-F22E the whole deal structure has evolved a lot but still need more concrete terms on the same.
> FM AJ assured that PM NaMo and DM MP will be appraised about the whole deal structure and he hoped that LM will provide India with a 'meaningful' and 'substantial' technology transfer in any aircraft deal.
> FM AJ discussed the above discussion points with DM MP.
> DM MP has told LM representative of what his expectations are ..
> To a pointed question about what is the real chance of F22E as it has been in news for some time, LM folks defined that they are studying market prospects and believe India and Japan alone can consume around 150 such devices and net 5 country potential as of now stands close to 250 odd numbers. This number may be further expanded when more Nato allies join in for the F22E orders.
> LM was cited a recent example that an aircraft major is willing to invest in domestic engine program. So what is the possibility that LM also does the same and makes a family of Engines which can power all the 3 (F16,F35 and F22E) thereby getting India a high indigenous number.
> LM reply to this was they need to study more to understand if such an arrangement can be made or not as they feel all 3 jets required too much different class of engines.
> A family of engines supporting all different types of fighter jets and which can also power our AMCA program is one of the key points which India is looking at.
> Also India explicitly asked for Radar, Stealth, Communication, Reduced detection capabilities, RAM technology and armaments to be completely shared with partial codes for any meaningful offer.
> Again on this point, LM needs clarity from US government and Senate.
> To a pointed question on weapon customization, LM said present US weapons latest versions would be supplied and Indian weapon customization can be done. To this DM MP clearly asked without codes being shared how can India configure Astra and NG ARM etc and recertify the plane.. LM did not reply to that.
> 
> 
> It looks like DM MP wont agree for the LM deal at present structure due to uncertainity and lack of clarity on terms.
> F22E is like a carrot dangled for the fact that India has not fallen for the F35.
> 
> India is very close to freezing FGFA project investments and release the funds. Talks are already going on for PAKFA stage 1 some numbers for procurement in 2021-25 period before stage 2 FGFA is made in Indian assembly line. The efforts seems to undercut this PAKFA stage 1 numbers by pitching in F22E
> 
> One thing what is clear is that despite of public campaigns by LM and Saab, DM MP seems a man who had not fallen for such facade and is bargaining hard to see how much willing LM, Saab and perhaps Boeing is in reality willing to offer a good economical package to India. With terms as desired by India and are agreeable to Indian side without giving up control, access and shelling out a blank cheque.
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @MilSpec @Vergennes @Taygibay @Nilgiri @Stephen Cohen @BON PLAN @dadeechi @others



Will we know by the end of this year at least what the firm commitments and direction will be?

I enjoy how the DM is playing and hedging everyone against each other to get the absolute best deal India can muster while not sacrificing on capability.

I just wish that it was done at a much earlier stage w.r.t MMRCA program. Why we even announced the L1 candidate is beyond me.

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## Stephen Cohen

Nilgiri said:


> I just wish that it was done at a much earlier stage w.r.t MMRCA program. Why we even announced the L1 candidate is beyond me.



The India US relationship has taken time to evolve
and get better

It is always a political call to take the relationship to the next level
which had to be taken by PM Modi

Secondly Indian government realised that Over dependency on France is not good

Third the prolonged Rafale negotiations has given Hope to all its competitiors
Hence we can see these offers from SAAB and LM and Boeing

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@PARIKRAMA Could you please get some details about the French offer on Kaveri

Then what happens to GE 414

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## Nilgiri

Stephen Cohen said:


> The India US relationship has taken time to evolve
> and get better
> 
> It is always a political call to take the relationship to the next level
> which had to be taken by PM Modi
> 
> Secondly Indian government realised that Over dependency on France is not good
> 
> Third the prolonged Rafale negotiations has given Hope to all its competitiors
> Hence we can see these offers from SAAB and LM and Boeing



Oh I am not blaming BJP that much....I just wish this whole thing was done under the UPA administration (i.e rather than isolating a winner and giving them bargaining advantage....keep the technical winner known to you only and then let the bidding war commence and see which one gives the best bang for the buck).

But I guess its too much to ask of that govt. At least now the system I am talking about is coming into play somewhat. Better late than never I guess.

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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> @PARIKRAMA Could you please get some details about the French offer on Kaveri
> 
> Then what happens to GE 414



It had talked about investment of Euro 1 Bn to complete the Kaveri engine to specs as desired in the original spec sheet of 90 Kn. But that will come when we order Rafale and if DM MP and MOD is agreeable to such investments.

GE 414 i am sure will be at best licence version made in Pune plant. What we wont get is critical tech portion knwo how and passing the industrial side of it completely. Perhaps partially they may make it in India but critical parts like the HP/LP portions and Hot engine tech etc will be kit based and controlled.

Will ask source for more concrete details.. for both things..

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## Stephen Cohen

Nilgiri said:


> Oh I am not blaming BJP that much....I just wish this whole thing was done under the UPA administration (i.e rather than isolating a winner and giving them bargaining advantage....keep the technical winner known to you only and then let the bidding war commence and see which one gives the best bang for the buck).
> 
> But I guess its too much to ask of that govt. At least now the system I am talking about is coming into play somewhat. Better late than never I guess.



Their heart was interested in commisions -- not in national interest 

It take a lot of time and energy efforts and committment to PUSH things 
in the government 

Such ideas and proposals have to be moved and initiated by the 
PM and DM 

Bureaucracy is only interested in shortcuts-- except for some bright people 
who also loose interest after sometime

For example DM has taken 18 Meetings with all stake holders 
ONLY for Tejas -- to Get TEJAS project come to a successful conclusion

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## Nilgiri

Stephen Cohen said:


> Their heart was interested in commisions -- not in national interest
> 
> It take a lot of time and energy efforts and committment to PUSH things
> in the government
> 
> Such ideas and proposals have to be moved and initiated by the
> PM and DM
> 
> Bureaucracy is only interested in shortcuts-- except for some bright people
> who also loose interest after sometime
> 
> For example DM has taken 18 Meetings with all stake holders
> ONLY for Tejas -- to Get TEJAS project come to a successful conclusion



Yup its why I can only wish...I know its was practically impossible. God forbid if we ever get to that situation again.

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> It had talked about investment of Euro 1 Bn to complete the Kaveri engine to specs as desired in the original spec sheet of 90 Kn. But that will come when we order Rafale and if DM MP and MOD is agreeable to such investments.
> 
> GE 414 i am sure will be at best licence version made in Pune plant. What we wont get is critical tech portion knwo how and passing the industrial side of it completely. Perhaps partially they may make it in India but critical parts like the HP/LP portions and Hot engine tech etc will be kit based and controlled.
> 
> Will ask source for more concrete details.. for both things..



I specifically asked for GE 414 given that Engine Technology was ONE of the announcements
under India US DTII (Defence Technology Trade Initiative) along with EMALS

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## anant_s

PARIKRAMA said:


> The export version of F22 E will be first lucrative point of technology being shared between USA for Japan 5th gen program and India's AMCA.


My God!
This will be greatest catch of our times, if true.
till now US government has not allowed F 22 to be exported to any country including closest allies Israel and if we can lay hands on Raptor, it will change the military dynamics (or air power atleast) in the region forever. It would also mean an end to FGFA program and possibly AMCA number reduction. 


PARIKRAMA said:


> an aircraft major is willing to invest in domestic engine program.


Pratt & Whitney? or GE?


PARIKRAMA said:


> India explicitly asked for Radar, Stealth, Communication, Reduced detection capabilities, RAM technology and armaments to be completely shared with partial codes for any meaningful offer.


Now here is something interesting. If Lockheed is making an offer, it means they have some assurances from US administration (can't be a blatant Carrot and Stick game). A lot of path breaking policy changes seem to be in offing, if some or most of above offers are to be realized in future and with sensitive technologies (that are always accompanied by changes in national policies), i'm sure someone, who takes decision has taken into account, that national policies might not change either in India or US over a long period of time. 
therefore my take away from your note @PARIKRAMA is that defence is only a sector we are looking at, but Indo US relations are now under going a sea change and we will see its implications in several other areas (foreign policy included) in next few years.

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## Nilgiri

anant_s said:


> Pratt & Whitney? or GE?



Didn't hear about anything from my end regarding PW....though I am down the line of hierarchy by quite a bit .

GE would make the most sense.

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## randomradio

If they modernize the F-22, it will be ready only around the time the FGFA is ready. Pointless for India.

And India will never buy jets directly, it has to have ToT and industrial production involved.

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## Ali Zadi

Restarting the F22 with USA alone would be too expensive but with an export version its viable. It has been said before also that a F22 > F35 in stealth among other things not to mention using the same engine as the F35 the F22 would make for a very potent fast aircraft.

The real sticky is the price I don't expect the F22 E to cost less than PAK FA simply put its american tech and they are always expensive compared to russian. The other thing is the reduced specs of the F22 E, if they are reduced specs overall compared to the original F22 and not a modernized F22 its again not worth it. The F35 is said to have a RCS of a metal golf ball where as in F22's case its a metal marble, the F22 E might have a larger RCS around that of a F35/PAK FA and it will surely be more expensive than a F35 "Two Engines, etc, etc"

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## PARIKRAMA

F22E some points

Congress recently tasked the Air Force to study the cost and feasibility of restarting the F-22 Raptor production line.

Early in the Obama administration, then-Secretary of Defense Robert Gates succeeded in his effort to kill the F-22 program. 
The assembly line was shut down after the last Raptor was delivered in 2012. 
“We don’t have enough F-22s,” said Gen. Herbert “Hawk” Carlisle, commander of Air Combat Command, at a conference last year. “That’s a fact of life. We didn’t buy enough.”
Even if Congress lifted the export ban, which was put in place due to concerns that the sophisticated technology on the F-22 could fall into the wrong hands, not many countries would be lining up to buy it
Japan, Israel and Australia are the only allies that have expressed interest in the fighter and would be in a position to purchase and operate it effectively. The latest names added is India in the same list.
From a financial, industrial and political perspective, there are a number of hurdles to reopening the F-22 line and building additional planes. One is the price tag. Such an effort would cost about $40 billion including the costs of getting the production pieces back into place and modernizing outdated component
Upgrading F22 to new specs would cost $5 Bn approx included in that $40 Bn cost
Order size estimated is 
F22 USA - 200 (194)
F22E - 

Japan - 100
Israel - 50
Australia - 45
India -75
NATO allies - 100

Total orders - 570 with Export downgraded version at 370

Decision may be taken when new US counter air operations strategy for next 2 decades is discussed next financial year. Post which formal notification for budgetary approval will be in front of Congress. LM is hoping to showcase firm commitments from allies by then to get approval and funding for restarting the line.

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> F22E some points
> 
> Congress recently tasked the Air Force to study the cost and feasibility of restarting the F-22 Raptor production line.
> 
> Early in the Obama administration, then-Secretary of Defense Robert Gates succeeded in his effort to kill the F-22 program.
> The assembly line was shut down after the last Raptor was delivered in 2012.
> “We don’t have enough F-22s,” said Gen. Herbert “Hawk” Carlisle, commander of Air Combat Command, at a conference last year. “That’s a fact of life. We didn’t buy enough.”
> Even if Congress lifted the export ban, which was put in place due to concerns that the sophisticated technology on the F-22 could fall into the wrong hands, not many countries would be lining up to buy it
> Japan, Israel and Australia are the only allies that have expressed interest in the fighter and would be in a position to purchase and operate it effectively. The latest names added is India in the same list.
> From a financial, industrial and political perspective, there are a number of hurdles to reopening the F-22 line and building additional planes. One is the price tag. Such an effort would cost about $40 billion including the costs of getting the production pieces back into place and modernizing outdated component
> Upgrading F22 to new specs would cost $5 Bn approx included in that $40 Bn cost
> Order size estimated is
> F22 USA - 200 (194)
> F22E -
> Japan - 100
> Israel - 50
> Australia - 45
> India -75
> NATO allies - 100
> 
> Total orders - 570 with Export downgraded version at 370
> 
> Decision may be taken when new US counter air operations strategy for next 2 decades is discussed next financial year. Post which formal notification for budgetary approval will be in front of Congress. LM is hoping to showcase firm commitments from allies by then to get approval and funding for restarting the line.



So my question is why should we go for F 16 ; just WAIT for F22 E

Japan has already applied for F 22 

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...the-fighter-jet-japan-desperately-wants-16913

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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> So my question is why should we go for F 16 ; just WAIT for F22 E
> 
> Japan has already applied for F 22
> 
> http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...the-fighter-jet-japan-desperately-wants-16913


That point will come eventually. But before that LM would like to push us F16 so that they can offload the line and associated costs to us and ensure F16 are churned out for another decade.

Thats why it is necessary to see what is really coming .. F16 Blk72 with F35 and F22E is a much bigger deal but F22E will kill PAKFA stage 1 direct procurement as well as delay AMCA program as too many 5th gen projects will be there and multiple 5G platforms.

Let them formally give the proposal in writing with numbers and assurance of codes to ensure there is no electronic kill switches nor any limitation of not able to use for N roles.

A good question to wonder would be F22E downspec - how it will fare up against
1. rafale
2. rafale NG
3. Super Sukhoi Su 30 mki
4. Pakfa stage 1

In simple words its imperative to understand that unless it brings additional capability without any stick+hindrances, there is absolutely no use for us to go after this carrot..

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## randomradio

Ali Zadi said:


> Restarting the F22 with USA alone would be too expensive but with an export version its viable. It has been said before also that a F22 > F35 in stealth among other things not to mention using the same engine as the F35 the F22 would make for a very potent fast aircraft.
> 
> The real sticky is the price I don't expect the F22 E to cost less than PAK FA simply put its american tech and they are always expensive compared to russian. The other thing is the reduced specs of the F22 E, if they are reduced specs overall compared to the original F22 and not a modernized F22 its again not worth it. The F35 is said to have a RCS of a metal golf ball where as in F22's case its a metal marble, the F22 E might have a larger RCS around that of a F35/PAK FA and it will surely be more expensive than a F35 "Two Engines, etc, etc"



The F-35 has a smaller RCS than the F-22.


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## PARIKRAMA

Here is a good read from IDRW
http://idrw.org/defense-minister-pulled-off-coup-rafale-offset-contract/

*Has Defense Minister pulled off a coup in Rafale Offset Contract? *
*Published July 13, 2016 SOURCE: Sairama V/ FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG *

There has been reports of France offer to restart Kaveri Engine for Tejas 1A along with stealth, AESA radar and missile technology. If the reports are true. Then Defense Minister seem to have pulled off a coup in the Rafale offset deal to bring about a quantum leap in Technological advancements. Rafale aircraft though costliest among its peers, the offset clause providing investments and technology will save billions of dollars for India. Though India has been developing technologies slowly through DRDO, but these offers will speed up the development timeline and reduce the imports considerably.

Restarting the Kaveri Engine, will be a biggest boon for LCA Tejas. Safran has considerable experience in building jet engines (M88 for Rafale, M53 for Mirage and LEAP with GE) for more than 5 decades Rafale offset investment should produce two engine with 95KN for Tejas 1A and 110-120KN thrust for AMCA. 95KN thrust engine will negate the need for Tejas Mk2 and will be suitable for carrier operation. Any development of Tejas Mk2 should have the same engine as AMCA with thrust vectoring nozzle. 

The cost of GE F414 engine was $4.44 million in 2013 and $5.36 million in 2016. The price quoted by GE for 99 F414 engines was $822 million in 2010. The contract stipulates initial batch supplied directly and remaining produced in India with ToT. 

Tejas 1A/Mk2 is expected to replace 300 Migs of IAF along with 50 Tejas for Navy. Fighters require 3.5 engines throughout the life time without considering the extended lifespan. Overall Tejas need 1225 engines. In the case of twin engine AMCA, 200nos will correspond to 1300 engines. The numbers will go up if both IAF and Indian Navy choose 5th Gen AMCA than Tejas with longer combat radius and larger payload. All these doesn’t include the export potential of Tejas along with the Kaveri engines for UAVs. 

With 2500 engine requirement, if Kaveri engine is priced atleast $2 million lesser than GE, India will save over $5 billion without considering the French investment. The inflation, foreign exchange volatility and other technological Investments (AESA radar, Missile Technology) will take the savings above the procurement cost of 36 Rafales. The technological leap and the jobs generated/ material sourced in India will push the worth of Kaveri development. 

But India should be careful, since France have dragged the MRCA deal leading to its cancellation. The huge price escalation led to order reduced from 126 to 36 aircrafts without any ToT. France has promised to abide by MRCA tender but it has used every chance to divert the contract to its interest. This offset contract should not be used again by France to secure the Rafale deal but India should make France abide by the clauses of the contract without any loop holes through sovereign guarantee. The offset contract should stipulate the finished product with specific standards instead of the value of investment in developing the product.

++
This article is more or less the views and sentiments which has been in detailed explained by VSTOL in another forum. he defined the same in great details

Here is his original post:

_pls read the conditions associated with 100% FDI. This is allowed only for select technologies which India needs and not for every Item. I do not want to post here what I sent to top boss but just the Kaveri and HTFE-25 upgrade will make 36 Rafales free for India if we add the benefits of the money saved due to upgrade of Kaveri and HTFE-25. The savings on most conservative estimate are going to be over US$11B over 25 years. The correct amount is over US$17B. Now tell me what is better?
Saving US$17B over 25 years by paying US$8.5B for 36 Rafales or Saving US$8.5B by cancelling Rafale deal and get stuck with importing engines for next 25yrs worth over US$ 32B with associated blackmails and fear of sanctions?_

and

_I will show you calculation of the most conservative estimate. And here it is.

These two engines will help us replace 75% of engines being used on our fleet of aircraft/helicopters and help us save over US$10B over next 25 yrs. Kaveri will replace F404 in LCA Mk1A and we won’t need LCA Mk2 thereafter. Kaveri can also replace engines of Mig-29 and can be used on AMCA. HTFE-35 can be used to replace Jaguar engines, Hawk-132 engines and Predator-c drone engines. The Turboprop version can be used on all helicopters and HTT-40 being produced in India. Every aircraft needs about three engines in its life time. We will need over 600 Kaveri engines for a fleet of 200 LCAs + 500 for a fleet of 110 twin engine Mig-29/29Ks. The requirement for AMCA will be easily over 1200 engines. The HTFE-35 will have a requirement of over 250 engines for a fleet of 125 Jaguars + 600 engines for a fleet of 200 Hawk-132. The details of savings are listed below:-

Over 2300 Kaveri type engines for LCA, AMCA, Mig-29/29Ks @US$6m/engine average price for next 25 yrs.= US$13.8B
Over 800 HTFE-35 Type engines for Jaguars and Hawk-132s @US$3m/engine average price for next 25yrs= US$2.4B
Over 3000 HTSE-1700 Type engines for helicopters & HTT-40 @US$2m/engine average price for next 25yrs=US$6b

This makes it a total of US$22.2B. If we consider that Indian engines will cost 60% of the value listed above, we will save US$8.8B over next 25 yrs + US$1B for developing LCA Mk2 + we recover the money spent on Kaveri development till date amounting to US$500m. The net savings will be well over US$10B. 

This means that we will end up getting 36 Rafale virtually free of cost. I have not added the earnings we may have by exporting the aircraft using these engines. The benefits in terms of having no fear of sanctions by using our own engine can’t be quantified._

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> F22E some points
> 
> Congress recently tasked the Air Force to study the cost and feasibility of restarting the F-22 Raptor production line.
> 
> Early in the Obama administration, then-Secretary of Defense Robert Gates succeeded in his effort to kill the F-22 program.
> The assembly line was shut down after the last Raptor was delivered in 2012.
> “We don’t have enough F-22s,” said Gen. Herbert “Hawk” Carlisle, commander of Air Combat Command, at a conference last year. “That’s a fact of life. We didn’t buy enough.”
> Even if Congress lifted the export ban, which was put in place due to concerns that the sophisticated technology on the F-22 could fall into the wrong hands, not many countries would be lining up to buy it
> Japan, Israel and Australia are the only allies that have expressed interest in the fighter and would be in a position to purchase and operate it effectively. The latest names added is India in the same list.
> From a financial, industrial and political perspective, there are a number of hurdles to reopening the F-22 line and building additional planes. One is the price tag. Such an effort would cost about $40 billion including the costs of getting the production pieces back into place and modernizing outdated component
> Upgrading F22 to new specs would cost $5 Bn approx included in that $40 Bn cost
> Order size estimated is
> F22 USA - 200 (194)
> F22E -
> Japan - 100
> Israel - 50
> Australia - 45
> India -75
> NATO allies - 100
> 
> Total orders - 570 with Export downgraded version at 370
> 
> Decision may be taken when new US counter air operations strategy for next 2 decades is discussed next financial year. Post which formal notification for budgetary approval will be in front of Congress. LM is hoping to showcase firm commitments from allies by then to get approval and funding for restarting the line.



You can add this to your post too.
http://www.reuters.com/article/india-boeing-superhornet-idUSKCN0VC0IB


> Muilenburg also flagged the F-22 Raptor, a fifth-generation fighter jointly developed with Lockheed Martin Corp, as a future sales prospect for India, calling it "an area of future investment for which we are interested".



The F-22s for India has been hinted once before. But I think they are threatened by the PAK FA/FGFA, and that's why the offer.

@Deino
What do you think will be China's reaction if the F-22s are sold to India?

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## PARIKRAMA

@randomradio - can confirm that idrw article is inspired from vstol writings.



randomradio said:


> You can add this to your post too.
> http://www.reuters.com/article/india-boeing-superhornet-idUSKCN0VC0IB
> 
> 
> The F-22s for India has been hinted once before. But I think they are threatened by the PAK FA/FGFA, and that's why the offer.
> 
> @Deino
> What do you think will be China's reaction if the F-22s are sold to India?


_Muilenburg also flagged the F-22 Raptor, a fifth-generation fighter jointly developed with Lockheed Martin Corp, as a future sales prospect for India, calling it "an area of future investment for which we are interested"._

Yes you are correct.. he did point that out..


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## Deino

randomradio said:


> You can add this to your post too.
> http://www.reuters.com/article/india-boeing-superhornet-idUSKCN0VC0IB
> 
> 
> The F-22s for India has been hinted once before. But I think they are threatened by the PAK FA/FGFA, and that's why the offer.
> 
> @Deino
> What do you think will be China's reaction if the F-22s are sold to India?




IMO this is as likely as a German landing on the Mars within the next two years !

Sorry, but especially in order to rise emotions against china there is currently so much BS written esp. in the Western press ... and this is a prime example.

1. The restart of the F-22's production is IMO more than unlikely and ...
2. if it will be restarted, a sale to India even more.

So I think we should even more prepare the landing celebration for that unknown German astronaut on Mars.

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## BON PLAN

anant_s said:


> My God!
> This will be greatest catch of our times, if true.
> till now US government has not allowed F 22 to be exported to any country including closest allies Israel and if we can lay hands on Raptor, it will change the military dynamics (or air power atleast) in the region forever. It would also mean an end to FGFA program and possibly AMCA number reduction.
> 
> Pratt & Whitney? or GE?
> 
> Now here is something interesting. If Lockheed is making an offer, it means they have some assurances from US administration (can't be a blatant Carrot and Stick game). A lot of path breaking policy changes seem to be in offing, if some or most of above offers are to be realized in future and with sensitive technologies (that are always accompanied by changes in national policies), i'm sure someone, who takes decision has taken into account, that national policies might not change either in India or US over a long period of time.
> therefore my take away from your note @PARIKRAMA is that defence is only a sector we are looking at, but Indo US relations are now under going a sea change and we will see its implications in several other areas (foreign policy included) in next few years.


DO YOU REALLY EXPECT USA WILL GIVE YOU F22, EVEN IN EXPORT MODEL??? AND WITH TOT ....

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## Spectre

BON PLAN said:


> DO YOU REALLY EXPECT USA WILL GIVE YOU F22, EVEN IN EXPORT MODEL??? AND WITH TOT ....



I would prefer Jessica Alba instead as it is a more realistic option.

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## BON PLAN

F16 and SH18 on the table. India not interested.

F35 on the table. India even don't open an eye.

Now F22 on the table... Please, wait ! in some weeks USA will offer you the tech for Seawolf and Virginia SSN, plus Falcon 9 one, plus EMALS and THAAD tech....

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## randomradio

Deino said:


> 1. The restart of the F-22's production is IMO more than unlikely and ...



I think you will be in for a surprise.

The restarting of the line is not completely realistic for just 194 units that the USAF wants. Adding a 300+ export order is what will make the line feasible, especially if the F-22 has to compete with the PAK FA's upcoming avionics.



> if it will be restarted, a sale to India even more.



India rejecting the F-22 is more likely.

But what I had asked for is an opinion on how you think China will react to F-22s in India, regardless of whether the Germans make it to Mars and beyond. Think of it as being a hypothetical question if you want. I'm looking for a pro-Chinese perspective.

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## Spectre

SvenSvensonov said:


> I'm really beginning to hate the this thread, too damn much wishing, too much rumors, not enough substance.
> 
> YOU ARE NOT GETTING THE F-22!!
> 
> Not in any form, export or not. The production line is closed, prohibitively expensive to reopen and buried in a f*cking desert somewhere in the Western US. And this isn't even to mention the requirement of Congressional approval, which isn't likely either, nor to mention the US likes to maintain a qualitative edge over even its allies.
> 
> I should start handing out negative ratings for this kind of garbage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And before someone responds with something like "_But we're getting the FGFA, we don't need the F-22_."
> 
> I don't care. So save yourself the trouble of responding.



That is the wrong way to argue with Indians (myself included). Just quote the operating cost and see the dreams die. It is a beautiful feeling!!

but then fault lies with Americans too - You guys make a fighter jet which can outfly and outfight all the gods and their and angles together and then blame us for having fanciful dreams. tch tch!


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## 21 Dec 2012

How many 'source based' posts are we expected to see here? This deal was already done according to Mr. 'source' back in April. Its July 13 and there's no sign of it. Even the French have stopped talking about the India sale. This thread is truly the biggest joke on the forum.



PARIKRAMA said:


> long day.. just reached home.. but straight to the PC to type good news...
> 
> Deal is done.. final papers exchanged..
> its officially 36 flyaway
> 90 make in India tranche 1
> Final numbers would be 300 Rafales with 100+ Rafale Ms
> The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..
> Expect deal announcement soon..
> The 18s was pitted very aggressively but a question was asked what besides the jet and cooperation on other projects, the answer was inconclusive.
> The deal papers were exchanged in the meeting of March 29,2016.
> Bankers are confirmed...
> The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities
> Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.
> LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
> Officially certain news will be out soon..but before that expect a flurry of anti Rafale media reports
> Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..


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## Deino

randomradio said:


> I think you will be in for a surprise.
> 
> The restarting of the line is not completely realistic for just 194 units that the USAF wants. Adding a 300+ export order is what will make the line feasible, especially if the F-22 has to compete with the PAK FA's upcoming avionics.
> 
> 
> 
> India rejecting the F-22 is more likely.
> 
> But what I had asked for is an opinion on how you think China will react to F-22s in India, regardless of whether the Germans make it to Mars and beyond. Think of it as being a hypothetical question if you want. I'm looking for a pro-Chinese perspective.



O.k. ... but then give me please some time to consider.

Concerning a F-22-restart I still have a different opinion ... but anyway.

More later.


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## randomradio

SvenSvensonov said:


> Not in any form, export or not. The production line is closed, *prohibitively expensive* to reopen and buried in a f*cking desert somewhere in the Western US. And this isn't even to mention the requirement of Congressional approval, which isn't likely either, nor to mention the US likes to maintain a qualitative edge over even its allies.



The F-22 will piggy back on the F-35's development.

And there is apparently a new plan in place. Instead of going for a 20 or 30 year development cycle for the next best, the US plans on modernizing an existing fighter that can be made operational in the next 5-10 years.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-wants-on-time-f-x-not-more-f-22s-422950/


> “Because we want to do it faster and don’t want to do another 20-year development programme for a whole host of reasons, we’ll try and go with technology that are at a high readiness level now with manufacturing capabilities that are at a high readiness level now,” Lt Gen James Holmes tells a Senate Armed Services subcommittee panel in response to questions about restarting F-22 production.
> 
> “I think it’s completely possible as we get the requirements that there may be competitors that bid on *modification of an existing technology or platform like the F-22* and the F-35.”



So a modernized F-22 is a possibility. And to make this possible, the US has to either buy a lot of jets on their own, or export it to other countries to make up for economies of scale. At least LM will market it that way. It will make the program more time compliant and more affordable than a new design.

Which means restarting the F-22 is not off the table yet.

There's this as well.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-backs-off-sixth-gen-fighter-in-quest-for-air-423994/

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## Taygibay

SvenSvensonov said:


> I should start handing out negative ratings for this kind of garbage.



Wouldn't it be simpler to bar Bharatis from PDF altogether?
Because that's what it equates to ... if you give negs to wishful thinking.

Just sayin', Tay.

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## Spectre

Taygibay said:


> Wouldn't it be simpler to bar* Bharatis* from PDF altogether?
> Because that's what it equates to ... if you give negs to wishful thinking.
> 
> Just sayin', Tay.



Monsieur! C'est grossier de votre part.

Indians don't have a patent on wishful thinking nor are they the primary offenders either here or elsewhere. Bhartis is a derogatory term similar in context to "Frogs used by the British for French".* I request you to not to use it, if it was used out of ignorance. If the offense was intended then *Je me tire
*

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## Ali Zadi

randomradio said:


> The F-35 has a smaller RCS than the F-22.



The U.S. Air Force, in it's effort to get money to build more F-22s, has revealed just how "stealthy" *the F-22 is. It's RCS (Radar Cross Section) is the equivalent, for a radar, to a metal marble. The less stealthy (and much cheaper) F-35, is equal to a metal golf ball*. The F-35 stealthiness is a bit better than the B-2 bomber, which, in turn, was twice as good as that on the even older F-117. Much older aircraft, like the B-52, have a huge RCS, which makes them very easy to spot on radar. But with a smaller RCS, it's more likely that the aircraft won't be detected at all.

Source : Search Google for "strategypage 20051125" first result is the source dated Nov 2005.


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## randomradio

Ali Zadi said:


> The U.S. Air Force, in it's effort to get money to build more F-22s, has revealed just how "stealthy" *the F-22 is. It's RCS (Radar Cross Section) is the equivalent, for a radar, to a metal marble. The less stealthy (and much cheaper) F-35, is equal to a metal golf ball*. The F-35 stealthiness is a bit better than the B-2 bomber, which, in turn, was twice as good as that on the even older F-117. Much older aircraft, like the B-52, have a huge RCS, which makes them very easy to spot on radar. But with a smaller RCS, it's more likely that the aircraft won't be detected at all.
> 
> Source : Search Google for "strategypage 20051125" first result is the source dated Nov 2005.



Yes, and then General Hostage showed up and said the F-35 has a smaller RCS and is more stealthy than the F-22.


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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Indian order will be further divided into exclusive access to the following
> 75% of the F16 order will be eligible for F35 purchase under reduced rates post 2022
> 66% of the F16 order will be eligible for a new fighter F22 E (exports) post 2020-22. to be purchased by only handful of nations (5 in numbers as of now with Japan and India and 3 others with limited purchases)
> 
> 
> The export version of F22 E will be first lucrative point of technology being shared between USA for Japan 5th gen program and India's AMCA.


This really is getting out of control now bro, there is NO WAY India will be operating FOUR different types of 5th gen fighter* (FGFA, AMCA, F-35 and F-22 "E"). For the long term interests of India the AMCA and FGFA are the ONLY way to go, the F-22 would kill the FGFA and the F-35 would kill the AMCA.

Nothing the Americans are offering seems attractive to me.



* please note that the French don't have plans to induct a SINGLE 5th gen type

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## Ali Zadi

randomradio said:


> Yes, and then General Hostage showed up and said the F-35 has a smaller RCS and is more stealthy than the F-22.



Yes but then

"Now, we all know that a lot of things can go happen between the interviewee’s brain and the interviewer’s keyboard, but the idea that the F-35 is stealthier than the F-22 contradicts pretty much everything that has been said about the program for the past 20 years, including the reporting of my former colleague, the usually well-informed Dave Fulghum.

The statement is curious for other reasons. Nobody ever suggested in the program’s formative years that the goal was to beat the F-22's stealth - and indeed that would be extremely unlikely since the JSF was designed for export. Stealth, along with other requirements, was also subject to trades in the development of the final JSF requirement, and less important than life-cycle cost.

The geometrical basics of stealth -- sweep and cant angles, minimized small-radius curves and nozzle design -- favor the F-22, and everything anyone has said about radar absorbent materials for years has been about life-cycle cost rather than performance.

Hostage is effusive about the value of the F-35’s sensor fusion and datalinks, too:

_“Fusion says here’s what’s out there. You told me, this one right here’s a threat. Here’s what it’s doing right now. Here’s what your wingman (knows): he sees he’s got a missile on the right, so I’m not going to waste a missile because I already see that my wingman’s taking care of it.”_"


Source: Google "aviationweek & f-35-stealthier-f-22" again first link

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## Dash

Abingdonboy said:


> This really is getting out of control now, there is NO WAY India will be operating FOUR different types of 5th gen fighter* (FGFA, AMCA, F-35 and F-22 "E"). For the long term interests of India the AMCA and FGFA are the ONLY way to go, the F-22 would kill the FGFA and the F-35 would kill the AMCA.
> 
> Nothing the Americans are offering seems attractive to me.
> 
> 
> 
> * please note that the French don't have plans to induct a SINGLE 5th gen type


Just don't bother..

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## migflug

Sorry bro but USA may give us f 22 but only after 2070 just like f16(when it will be obsolete)

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## [Bregs]

Abingdonboy said:


> *This really is getting out of control now bro*, there is NO WAY India will be operating FOUR different types of 5th gen fighter* (FGFA, AMCA, F-35 and F-22 "E"). For the long term interests of India the AMCA and FGFA are the ONLY way to go, the F-22 would kill the FGFA and the F-35 would kill the AMCA.
> 
> *Nothing the Americans are offering seems attractive to me.*
> 
> 
> 
> * please note that the French don't have plans to induct a SINGLE 5th gen type




lol well said bro

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## PARIKRAMA

Tomorrow is a DAC meeting.
So tomorrow Rafale deal note will be discussed in DAC. Of course its upto DM MP whether he forwards the note or not .. Or keep it pending like always..

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## [Bregs]

PARIKRAMA said:


> Tomorrow is a DAC meeting.
> So tomorrow Rafale deal note will be discussed in DAC. Of course its upto DM MP whether he forwards the note or not .. Or keep it pending like always..



It means bro DM do not have any urgency or pressure to act faster frm PMO ?

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## PARIKRAMA

[Bregs] said:


> It means bro DM do not have any urgency or pressure to act faster frm PMO ?


not much .. Since MP can showcase how he is getting offers from LM, Boeing and Saab by not signing Rafale order.

LM has already come out with big guns and and talked about 35 and 22E.. Boeing may be out soon with new competitive offer. Saab already gave an offer.. So he has things to back up his stone walling ..

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## [Bregs]

PARIKRAMA said:


> not much .. Since MP can showcase how he is getting offers from LM, Boeing and Saab by not signing Rafale order.
> 
> LM has already come out with big guns and and talked about 35 and 22E.. Boeing may be out soon with new competitive offer. Saab already gave an offer.. So he has things to back up his stone walling ..



agreed but all these offers have nothing to do at least with the signing of 36 Rafale aircrafts, he can delay rafale MII but not the ready made deal for 36

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## Dash

I always hear this but I don't like it. 

They say no news is good news. 

Unfortunately it true for MMRCA

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## randomradio

Ali Zadi said:


> Yes but then
> 
> "Now, we all know that a lot of things can go happen between the interviewee’s brain and the interviewer’s keyboard, but the idea that the F-35 is stealthier than the F-22 contradicts pretty much everything that has been said about the program for the past 20 years, including the reporting of my former colleague, the usually well-informed Dave Fulghum.
> 
> The statement is curious for other reasons. Nobody ever suggested in the program’s formative years that the goal was to beat the F-22's stealth - and indeed that would be extremely unlikely since the JSF was designed for export. Stealth, along with other requirements, was also subject to trades in the development of the final JSF requirement, and less important than life-cycle cost.
> 
> The geometrical basics of stealth -- sweep and cant angles, minimized small-radius curves and nozzle design -- favor the F-22, and everything anyone has said about radar absorbent materials for years has been about life-cycle cost rather than performance.
> 
> Hostage is effusive about the value of the F-35’s sensor fusion and datalinks, too:
> 
> _“Fusion says here’s what’s out there. You told me, this one right here’s a threat. Here’s what it’s doing right now. Here’s what your wingman (knows): he sees he’s got a missile on the right, so I’m not going to waste a missile because I already see that my wingman’s taking care of it.”_"
> 
> Source: Google "aviationweek & f-35-stealthier-f-22" again first link



There have been major upgrades since the F-22.

Shaping is losing its relevance in stealth. The F-22 has slightly better shaping but the F-35 has better materials and avionics. The F-35 deflect and absorb waves much better than the F-22. That's why the smaller RCS.

And modern avionics means the F-22's current stealth techniques have become obsolete. The FGFA will be the new standard for stealth in a few years.

More modern aircraft are being built with radar absorbent structures. The F-22 doesn't have it.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> not much .. Since MP can showcase how he is getting offers from LM, Boeing and Saab by not signing Rafale order.
> 
> LM has already come out with big guns and and talked about 35 and 22E.. Boeing may be out soon with new competitive offer. Saab already gave an offer.. So he has things to back up his stone walling ..


But those other offers are entirely seperate to the Rafale deal, I don't see why he is letting them interfere with the Rafale deal signing 


Such bhanyia logic

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## Ankit Kumar

Hmmm.... if I am optimistic I see US getting some competition .....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/751320147164598272

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## [Bregs]

Abingdonboy said:


> But those other offers are entirely seperate to the Rafale deal, I don't see why he is letting them interfere with the Rafale deal signing
> 
> 
> Such bhanyia logic



sometimes our leaders try too hard to shown them self as best ever minister and this seems to be the case of MP. despite being an educated minister he has made many goof up with his tongue too and now this criminal delays again

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## Abingdonboy

Ankit Kumar said:


> Hmmm.... if I am optimistic I see US getting some competition .....
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/751320147164598272


Go with the French and don't look back, the US aren't looking for partners (the French are), they are looking for subservient "allies" and India cannot afford to become another Japan, Canada, Australia or UK, it should look to tie up with the only major Western nation with an independant foreign policy and autonomous strategic industry......France.

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## Dash

@PARIKRAMA man, those are MII deals why will they be discussed in DAC? 

I see no logic @Abingdonboy

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## Abingdonboy

[Bregs] said:


> sometimes our leaders try too hard to shown them self as best ever minister and this seems to be the case of MP.


100% this.

Whilst others in the Cabinet are letting their actions speak for themselves, MP is chosing to use his big mouth to compensate for his pathetic lack of (tanigble) results.



Dash said:


> @PARIKRAMA man, those are MII deals why will they be discussed in DAC?
> 
> I see no logic @Abingdonboy


If they are being pursued under the DPP-2016 (strategic chapter) then the DAC will have to clear/discuss any such offer/deal.

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## #hydra#

BON PLAN said:


> F16 and SH18 on the table. India not interested.
> 
> F35 on the table. India even don't open an eye.
> 
> Now F22 on the table... Please, wait ! in some weeks USA will offer you the tech for Seawolf and Virginia SSN, plus Falcon 9 one, plus EMALS and THAAD tech....


In my opinion if they offered b2 spirit,then India shouldn't close its eye. Any thing less than b2 isn't a worthy buy for India.


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## PARIKRAMA

[Bregs] said:


> agreed but all these offers have nothing to do at least with the signing of 36 Rafale aircrafts, he can delay rafale MII but not the ready made deal for 36





Abingdonboy said:


> But those other offers are entirely seperate to the Rafale deal, I don't see why he is letting them interfere with the Rafale deal signing
> 
> 
> Such bhanyia logic



What i really understand is perhaps the financial position of paying signing amount is more desired in Q3 or Q4 .. May be that is the whole reason of this game being played out. Even in case of MII being chosen in Q4 or by Marc 2017, again the actual signing and any kind of firm financial commitments would spill over..

It is understood that this december Indo Russian summit will see a much aggressive announcement in PAKFA successful testing being over. So a amount of substantial $$$ has to be paid that side as well. That along with confirmation payments of S400 and N sub lease which may join us in 2018-19.

Perhaps all this, is making DM play it out and probably French side is aware of it (being told) bcz they had been quiet and had been waiting without creating any fuss or negative comment anywhere.

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## Dash

Abingdonboy said:


> 100% this.
> 
> Whilst others in the Cabinet are letting their actions speak for themselves, MP is chosing to use his big mouth to compensate for his pathetic lack of (tanigble) results.
> 
> 
> If they are being pursued under the DPP-2016 (strategic chapter) then the DAC will have to clear/discuss any such offer/deal.



DAC doesn't work like that. You need MOD approval for any discussion on any strategic or tactical things to be discussed in DAC. in case we all forgot here "MMRCA is being actively pursued by PMO and MOD is a secondary stakeholder. 

That means if you need to discuss MII with a link to MMRCA it needs backing of PMO. 

I clearly don't see that's the case here. For MMRCA Modi is the boss not Parikar. No matter what.

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## Ankit Kumar

The conversation ...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/752925990037381123

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/752936964555468800


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## PARIKRAMA

I also asked vstol in another forum parallel..
see here







With this i have more confidence that tomorrow may be a better outcome with DAC discussion (not like in May and June ones where everything i said back in April is over was supposed to be signed and taken fwd).

Again his timeline is also similar to what i wrote just few mins back that deal may see actual movement in Q3/Q4 from the perspective of payment and how french side may be aware of it..

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## Abingdonboy

Dash said:


> DAC doesn't work like that. You need MOD approval for any discussion on any strategic or tactical things to be discussed in DAC. in case we all forgot here "MMRCA is being actively pursued by PMO and MOD is a secondary stakeholder.
> 
> That means if you need to discuss MII with a link to MMRCA it needs backing of PMO.
> 
> I clearly don't see that's the case here. For MMRCA Modi is the boss not Parikar. No matter what.


For a deal to be pursued through the DPP-2016 it will need to have DAC approval. But you are right that MII deals will go through the PMO.



Ankit Kumar said:


> The conversation ...
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/752925990037381123
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/752936964555468800


Old news (France imposing "new" unfair conditions that aren't actually new or unfair conditions at all).

Sputnik is nothing but propoganda.

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> Yes, and then General Hostage showed up and said the F-35 has a smaller RCS and is more stealthy than the F-22.


? Always read the contrary.
Maybe, maybe F35 is stealthier than F22 in front sector, but it was said that F35 is mainly stealthier in front area, while F22 is all sector stealthier.
And when you have a look to F35, it is less pure and clean design than F22. 
No bump, same diamond nose, same tilted fin, better shaped air entry in the F22. It must help in final RCS result.



Abingdonboy said:


> * please note that the French don't have plans to induct a SINGLE 5th gen type


Our 5th gen plane will be a UCAV developped with GB (and Deutchland?)

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## [Bregs]

Rafale deal to figure in Defence Acquisition Council meeting on Thursday


NEW DELHI: The much hyped multi-billion dollar Rafale deal could see some forward movement tomorrow as the top acquisition body of the Defence Ministry is set to take a review of the negotiations held so far into the purchase of the French fighters. 

Defence sources said the Rafale fighter jet deal is one of the issues that will be discussed during the meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council tomorrow at the South Block. 

As per the normal process, once the deal is cleared by Defence Ministry, the file will go to the Finance Ministry and then to the Cabinet Committee on Security for final clearance. 

In an interview to PTI in May, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had said he was looking at wrapping up the deal soon and this could mean by end of June or July. 

Rejecting suggestions that there has been a delay in signing the contract for nearly 7.89 Billion Euros to procure the French fighter planes, the Minister said any such process takes at least 6-8 months. 


The deal was announced by Modi in April last year during his visit to France when he said India would purchase 36 Rafales in a government-to-government contract. 

Soon after the announcement, the Defence Ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafales, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation. 

The current deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of new jobs in India through the offsets. 

The commercial negotiations, as in the pricing of the planes, equipment and other issues, actually began only in mid-January this year. 

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

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## PARIKRAMA

[Bregs] said:


> Rafale deal to figure in Defence Acquisition Council meeting on Thursday
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI: The much hyped multi-billion dollar Rafale deal could see some forward movement tomorrow as the top acquisition body of the Defence Ministry is set to take a review of the negotiations held so far into the purchase of the French fighters.
> 
> Defence sources said the Rafale fighter jet deal is one of the issues that will be discussed during the meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council tomorrow at the South Block.
> 
> As per the normal process, once the deal is cleared by Defence Ministry, the file will go to the Finance Ministry and then to the Cabinet Committee on Security for final clearance.
> 
> In an interview to PTI in May, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had said he was looking at wrapping up the deal soon and this could mean by end of June or July.
> 
> Rejecting suggestions that there has been a delay in signing the contract for nearly 7.89 Billion Euros to procure the French fighter planes, the Minister said any such process takes at least 6-8 months.
> 
> 
> The deal was announced by Modi in April last year during his visit to France when he said India would purchase 36 Rafales in a government-to-government contract.
> 
> Soon after the announcement, the Defence Ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafales, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.
> 
> The current deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of new jobs in India through the offsets.
> 
> The commercial negotiations, as in the pricing of the planes, equipment and other issues, actually began only in mid-January this year.
> 
> Read more at:
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst



Nice..
Can some one help me understand one small view point

this line


[Bregs] said:


> The current deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of new jobs in India through the offsets.



English is a funny language..
So by this line do you understand offsets as


Euro 3 Bn
Euro 3.25 Bn
Euro 3.5 Bn
Euro 4 Bn

Bcz then deal should be inclusive of weapons

Euro 6 Bn = $6.5 Bn+ $1Bn weapons =$7.5 Bn
Euro 6.5 bn or $8.1 bn
Euro 7 Bn or $ $8.7 Bn
Euro 8 Bn or $9.8 Bn

Realistically what is the understanding you folks get by reading such wordings like at "least"?

@Abingdonboy @BON PLAN @Taygibay @anant_s @Dash @randomradio

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## Tameem

[Bregs] said:


> Rejecting suggestions that there has been a delay in signing the contract for *nearly 7.89 Billion Euros*



This is the Actual Deal Frenchs are agreed with



[Bregs] said:


> The current deal comes with the clause of delivering *50 per cent offsets*, creating business worth *at least 3 billion Euros*



This is what India is up for Bargaining...So the Difference between French and Indians is *1.89B Euros*.

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## Taygibay

OFF-Topic


Spectre said:


> Bhartis is a derogatory term similar in context to "Frogs used by the British for French".* I request you to not to use it, if it was used out of ignorance. If the offense was intended then



Whoa, calm down please, my good man! A joke was intended, obviously, but no offense!
How could Bharatis be an insult? The goddess is not a demeaning reference now, is it?
Nor are the director, the actress, the film or do you mean Indians then insult themselves?
Your South Pole station to be is named after an insult? 

I use Bharati to describe those that think India is older then 1947, that it has a long past.
If I called Pakistanis : Indus descendants, I trust they'd see it as a recognition of the same!

At most, I'd accept a link to a given




known forum to be
seen as derogatory but that was not the idea.

But yes, I am sorry to say that indulging in wishful thinking is very Indian in this context.
If you conflate the news on this thread as Sven suggested, to which I was responding BTW ...
- in 3 to 5 years, the IAF would sport its present aircrafts ( MKI-29s-2000s-Jags-LCA )

plus LCA Mk1+++,
F-18
Gripen E
LCA Mk2
F-16 IN
PAK-FA/FGFA
F-35
F-22
and heck AMCA why not ...
with LSA lurking in the shadows.
Talk about MFF, huh? Add 2 types and the old ones and you could build squadrons with all different ACs!!!

Noting the radical unlikelihood of the above is not an insult, it's common sense.

Sorry to have upset you, relax and have a good night, Tay.

End of OFF-Topic.

@PARIKRAMA

A minima : you can go higher but not lower.
If the deal is extended with a MII component or a Rafale M buy for example,
there could yet be more gains for India.
Or let's just imagine that those Raffys stay in service longer than expected
or at ISO numbers get more annual flight hours, there would be a need for
more support which would mean more business for the Indian corps / JVs
involved in the local Rafale industrial ecosystem.

That sort of things, Tay.

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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> ? Always read the contrary.
> Maybe, maybe F35 is stealthier than F22 in front sector, but it was said that F35 is mainly stealthier in front area, while F22 is all sector stealthier.



F-35 is all aspect stealth. It is radar stealthy from the rear too. Both jets have the same treatment against cavity resonance. The F-35 has a disadvantage with edge diffraction from the rear, but it's not a significant problem, you have to be at co-altitude for it to be a big problem.



> And when you have a look to F35, it is less pure and clean design than F22.
> No bump, same diamond nose, same tilted fin, better shaped air entry in the F22. It must help in final RCS result.



It's pointless to consider such differences. Both aircraft have very different dimensions and designs.



> Our 5th gen plane will be a UCAV developped with GB (and Deutchland?)



6th. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> Nice..
> Can some one help me understand one small view point
> 
> this line
> 
> 
> English is a funny language..
> So by this line do you understand offsets as
> 
> 
> Euro 3 Bn
> Euro 3.25 Bn
> Euro 3.5 Bn
> Euro 4 Bn
> 
> Bcz then deal should be inclusive of weapons
> 
> Euro 6 Bn = $6.5 Bn+ $1Bn weapons =$7.5 Bn
> Euro 6.5 bn or $8.1 bn
> Euro 7 Bn or $ $8.7 Bn
> Euro 8 Bn or $9.8 Bn
> 
> Realistically what is the understanding you folks get by reading such wordings like at "least"?
> 
> @Abingdonboy @BON PLAN @Taygibay @anant_s @Dash @randomradio



It's just a media estimate. Don't go by it. We don't know the INR component in the deal. Offsets is only for the forex component.

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## Dash

PARIKRAMA said:


> Nice..
> Can some one help me understand one small view point
> 
> this line
> 
> 
> English is a funny language..
> So by this line do you understand offsets as
> 
> 
> Euro 3 Bn
> Euro 3.25 Bn
> Euro 3.5 Bn
> Euro 4 Bn
> 
> Bcz then deal should be inclusive of weapons
> 
> Euro 6 Bn = $6.5 Bn+ $1Bn weapons =$7.5 Bn
> Euro 6.5 bn or $8.1 bn
> Euro 7 Bn or $ $8.7 Bn
> Euro 8 Bn or $9.8 Bn
> 
> Realistically what is the understanding you folks get by reading such wordings like at "least"?
> 
> @Abingdonboy @BON PLAN @Taygibay @anant_s @Dash @randomradio



Tay ji pretty much summed it up. It's just a speculation. But this tells me one thing that the offset is directly proportional to order value, a higher order value is a bigger liability for French but still they go for higher amount. 

Why? Because we all know what a joke offsets are, don't we? 

@Taygibay @Abingdonboy

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Whoa, calm down please, my good man! A joke was intended, obviously, but no offense! How could Bharatis be an insult? The goddess is not a demeaning reference now, is it? Nor are the director, the actress, the film or do you mean Indians then insult themselves?
> Your South Pole station to be is named after an insult?



India's alternate name of Bharat is named after a mythical warrior of great strength. Bharati is a girl's name. They are not related in anyway.

The right word for Indians is Bharatiya for singular and Bharatiyon in plural. Using Bharati is the equivalent of saying Frenchie or Ruskie or Jap. It's not derogatory anywhere else except PDF. I know you weren't being insulting, just FYI.



> But yes, I am sorry to say that indulging in wishful thinking is very Indian in this context.
> If you conflate the news on this thread as Sven suggested, to which I was responding BTW ...
> - in 3 to 5 years, the IAF would sport its present aircrafts ( MKI-29s-2000s-Jags-LCA )
> 
> plus LCA Mk1+++,
> F-18
> Gripen E
> LCA Mk2
> F-16 IN
> PAK-FA/FGFA
> F-35
> F-22
> and heck AMCA why not ...
> with LSA lurking in the shadows.
> Talk about MFF, huh? Add 2 types and the old ones and you could build squadrons with all different ACs!!!



That's pretty much how it has always been.
Mig-21
Mig-23
Mig-25
Mig-27
Mig-29
Mirage-2000
Jaguar
Gnat
Marut
Hunter
Ouragan
Vampire
Mystere
Su-7

Only Ouragan and Mystere did not stay for long. That's still 12 types right there. All these aircraft have functioned together, almost.

Now it will be reduced to 6, and with 2 types on their last legs or in storage.
MKI
Rafale
LCA
Gripen/F-16/LSA
FGFA
AMCA

M-2000
Jaguar

All other aircraft you mentioned are options.



Dash said:


> DAC doesn't work like that. You need MOD approval for any discussion on any strategic or tactical things to be discussed in DAC. in case we all forgot here "MMRCA is being actively pursued by PMO and MOD is a secondary stakeholder.
> 
> That means if you need to discuss MII with a link to MMRCA it needs backing of PMO.
> 
> I clearly don't see that's the case here. For MMRCA Modi is the boss not Parikar. No matter what.



There's no such thing.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...-establishes-defence-acquisition-council.html

Guys, everything goes through DAC. Only nuclear bombs and warheads go through PMO.

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## Dash

randomradio said:


> India's alternate name of Bharat is named after a mythical warrior of great strength. Bharati is a girl's name. They are not related in anyway.
> 
> The right word for Indians is Bharatiya for singular and Bharatiyon in plural. Using Bharati is the equivalent of saying Frenchie or Ruskie or Jap. It's not derogatory anywhere else except PDF. I know you weren't being insulting, just FYI.
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty much how it has always been.
> Mig-21
> Mig-23
> Mig-25
> Mig-27
> Mig-29
> Mirage-2000
> Jaguar
> Gnat
> Marut
> Hunter
> Ouragan
> Vampire
> Mystere
> Su-7
> 
> Only Ouragan and Mystere did not stay for long. That's still 12 types right there. All these aircraft have functioned together, almost.
> 
> Now it will be reduced to 6, and with 2 types on their last legs or in storage.
> MKI
> Rafale
> LCA
> Gripen/F-16/LSA
> FGFA
> AMCA
> 
> M-2000
> Jaguar
> 
> All other aircraft you mentioned are options.
> 
> 
> 
> There's no such thing.
> 
> http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...-establishes-defence-acquisition-council.html
> 
> Guys, everything goes through DAC. Only nuclear bombs and warheads go through PMO.



Since when Rafale was a part of DAC? I bet Modi didn't care about DAC when he signed mou with France. Leave that Parker guy aside and let him have his little games to it. 

Spare me the line of functioning lecture please


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## randomradio

Dash said:


> Since when Rafale was a part of DAC? I bet Modi didn't care about DAC when he signed mou with France. Leave that Parker guy aside and let him have his little games to it.
> 
> Spare me the line of functioning lecture please



Everything goes through DAC. PM took a decision and transferred the entire decision to Parrikar. Modi signed the first MoU, but it was Parrikar who changed everything. He was the one who added offsets, industrial production, new configuration etc. 

What Modi had signed for was an immediate purchase of 36 Rafales with French specifications, without offsets or industrial production. That was meant for SFC, his department. But SFC has decided to follow the IAF when it comes to fighter aircraft because they lack the expertise. The MMRCA program for 126 aircraft was separate from the contract for 36. Parrikar then canceled MMRCA and took over the 36 aircraft project and expanded that to 180 jets under MII.

Lecture is good when facts are necessary. So listen to all opinions. Modi has nothing to do with military MII. He's busy doing everything else.

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> not much .. Since MP can showcase how he is getting offers from LM, Boeing and Saab by not signing Rafale order.
> 
> LM has already come out with big guns and and talked about 35 and 22E.. Boeing may be out soon with new competitive offer. Saab already gave an offer.. So he has things to back up his stone walling ..



I really wonder what does IAF has to say about the Loss of TIME

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## randomradio

Stephen Cohen said:


> I really wonder what does IAF has to say about the Loss of TIME



There's no loss of time because 36 jets will be purchased from French lines directly. Earlier it was 18 jets.

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## Stephen Cohen

randomradio said:


> There's no loss of time because 36 jets will be purchased from French lines directly. Earlier it was 18 jets.



If you say so Mate 

There is a saying " Too many cooks spoil the Broth "

If we can use this analogy for IAF

" Too many choices will only cause a confusion and deadlock "

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## Dash

randomradio said:


> Everything goes through DAC. PM took a decision and transferred the entire decision to Parrikar. Modi signed the first MoU, but it was Parrikar who changed everything. He was the one who added offsets, industrial production, new configuration etc.
> 
> What Modi had signed for was an immediate purchase of 36 Rafales with French specifications, without offsets or industrial production. That was meant for SFC, his department. But SFC has decided to follow the IAF when it comes to fighter aircraft because they lack the expertise. The MMRCA program for 126 aircraft was separate from the contract for 36. Parrikar then canceled MMRCA and took over the 36 aircraft project and expanded that to 180 jets under MII.
> 
> Lecture is good when facts are necessary. So listen to all opinions. Modi has nothing to do with military MII. He's busy doing everything else.



You have no idea what you are saying. 

But it's good for discussion and will benefit the larger audience. So let me start. 

That DAC which was chaired by Anatolia sat over the MMRCA for 8 years still didn't clear the deal because Anatolia had a clear mandate not to clear the deal. Thats just starter. 

Now let's come to main course. 

AJ who when took over DAC couldn't get a head and tail of it and passed the buck to Peter Parker who still swings from one skyscraper to another skyscraper. 

Modi when he saw the mess decided to bypass that and passed on a political resolution with a clear mindset on what we need. He announced something what no other DAC could do in ten years. 

DAC is where military stops and politics take over. It's the starting point of a song that can only be sung by PMO. 

The attitudinal somersault that has been shown by DAC over the decades has been observed and de-gravitated by PMO. 

NOW. Peter doesn't even have a say in anything. If that was the say then S300 would have been de-prioritized but it's been cleared. 

Last but not the least I will give an example. 
Aravind panagariya is said to become the next RBI governor. Now the challenge is an RBI gov is a cabinet sec while Aravind is at Mos level. 

He (Modi) is ready to do constitutional amendment because he likes something and feels it's better for the nation. 

And you are talking about a puny def min and his DAC. 

GOOD LUCK


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## randomradio

Dash said:


> You have no idea what you are saying.
> 
> But it's good for discussion and will benefit the larger audience. So let me start.
> 
> That DAC which was chaired by Anatolia sat over the MMRCA for 8 years still didn't clear the deal because Anatolia had a clear mandate not to clear the deal. Thats just starter.
> 
> Now let's come to main course.
> 
> AJ who when took over DAC couldn't get a head and tail of it and passed the buck to Peter Parker who still swings from one skyscraper to another skyscraper.
> 
> Modi when he saw the mess decided to bypass that and passed on a political resolution with a clear mindset on what we need. He announced something what no other DAC could do in ten years.
> 
> DAC is where military stops and politics take over. It's the starting point of a song that can only be sung by PMO.
> 
> The attitudinal somersault that has been shown by DAC over the decades has been observed and de-gravitated by PMO.
> 
> NOW. Peter doesn't even have a say in anything. If that was the say then S300 would have been de-prioritized but it's been cleared.
> 
> Last but not the least I will give an example.
> Aravind panagariya is said to become the next RBI governor. Now the challenge is an RBI gov is a cabinet sec while Aravind is at Mos level.
> 
> He (Modi) is ready to do constitutional amendment because he likes something and feels it's better for the nation.
> 
> And you are talking about a puny def min and his DAC.
> 
> GOOD LUCK



Lol. All that you said is the exact opposite of what's happening.

And constitutional amendment requires 2/3rd votes in both LS and RS. And why will Modi break something when Parrikar has done a brilliant job fixing?

It may take a few months to a few years, but you will know everything that Parrikar's been doing pretty soon.

Oh, S-400 is Parrikar's deal, nothing to do with Modi.


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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Realistically what is the understanding you folks get by reading such wordings like at "least"?
> 
> @Abingdonboy @BON PLAN @Taygibay @anant_s @Dash @randomradio


My reading of it is the Indian media aren't careful enough to avoid making mistakes, they add meaningless terms and text without understanding the ramifications of their content

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> India's alternate name of Bharat is named after a mythical warrior of great strength. Bharati is a girl's name. They are not related in anyway.
> 
> The right word for Indians is Bharatiya for singular and Bharatiyon in plural. Using Bharati is the equivalent of saying Frenchie or Ruskie or Jap. It's not derogatory anywhere else except PDF. I know you weren't being insulting, just FYI.



Well, when you concentrate on facts, you are very useful!!!
Thanks for that comprehensive answer! Yes, I had conflated
Bharat the land/Bharat the legend/ & Bharati the goddess.

Bharatiyon it is hence then ( plus, it rings very ancient Greek ).

@Dash There might be the long run aspect to pushing for more.
For geo-strategic reasons, an extended partnership might work well.
In fact, it is already a bit late.

Thanks and have a good night both, Tay.

P.S. Yup Abingdon mate, I had refrained not to overdo it but that too!

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> There's no loss of time because 36 jets will be purchased from French lines directly. Earlier it was 18 jets.


How can there be no loss of time? Every day delayed results in a proportional delay in delivery- a 6 month delay now will result in an addtional 12 months the IAF has to wait for their Rafale (6+6). However the only way this would not be the case would be if there was an agreement with France for example, It had been stipulated by @Picdelamirand-oil that production for the first batch of the IAF's Rafales had already begun and would be ready for delivery in mid-2018. Now if this is the case then I agree with you, but if not MP can't afford to d*ck around (as he appears to be doing).

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> How can there be no loss of time? Every day delayed results in a proportional delay in delivery- a 6 month delay now will result in an addtional 12 months the IAF has to wait for their Rafale (6+6). However the only way this would not be the case would be if there was an agreement with France for example, It had been stipulated by @Picdelamirand-oil that production for the first batch of the IAF's Rafales had already begun and would be ready for delivery in mid-2018. Now if this is the case then I agree with you, but if not MP can't afford to d*ck around (as he appears to be doing).


It is an old post: I had the feeling that such an agreement was part of the deal with MODI. " if the signature is before the end of the year (2015!) you will get your plane mid 2018 (2015 +3 years) because we are confident on you and we begin to build your plane now.

The agreement was extended to january 2016 to allow for the signature during the Hollande visit for India’s Republic Day celebrations. But now? We are building the plane, but perhaps some other country would be pleased to have them?

Qatar?

Perhaps it explains why there is discussion with Egypt for 12 more Rafale?

It seems India is late, perhaps too late.

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> How can there be no loss of time? Every day delayed results in a proportional delay in delivery- a 6 month delay now will result in an addtional 12 months the IAF has to wait for their Rafale (6+6). However the only way this would not be the case would be if there was an agreement with France for example, It had been stipulated by @Picdelamirand-oil that production for the first batch of the IAF's Rafales had already begun and would be ready for delivery in mid-2018. Now if this is the case then I agree with you, but if not MP can't afford to d*ck around (as he appears to be doing).



According to the original MMRCA deal, we should have received the first squadron in 2018-19 and the first HAL jet in 2019-20, with full squadron by 2020-21. It's pretty much the same schedule under GTG, a lot quicker, because the next 18 are also coming in from France. Now MII jets should start coming in by 2019. So it's actually a lot faster than before.

With Dassault in control, production can be expanded by another 20-30%. So overall, it's a lot better than MMRCA even with delays.

Of course, according to Modi's initial deal, all 36 jets would have come by 2018-19, but that's not to be.

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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> It is an old post: I had the feeling that such an agreement was part of the deal with MODI. " if the signature is before the end of the year (2015!) you will get your plane mid 2018 (2015 +3 years) because we are confident on you and we begin to build your plane now.
> 
> The agreement was extended to january 2016 to allow for the signature during the Hollande visit for India’s Republic Day celebrations. But now? We are building the plane, but perhaps some other country would be pleased to have them?
> 
> Qatar?
> 
> Perhaps it explains why there is discussion with Egypt for 12 more Rafale?
> 
> It seems India is late, perhaps too late.


These were my fears


randomradio said:


> Of course, according to Modi's initial deal, all 36 jets would have come by 2018-19, but that's not to be.


So when will these 36 start coming to India? It is clear India has blown the opportunity to get them within 2018 thanks to Parrikar.



randomradio said:


> Now MII jets should start coming in by 2019. So it's actually a lot faster than before.


Made in India Rafales by 2019? I don't see how that is possible, the MII deal isn't even signed yet, it will take another 3-4 years to set up the plant in India and then another 2-3 years to churn out the first jet. Realistically speaking, the first MII Rafale will only be in service by 2025.

@PARIKRAMA any idea on the MII production timelines?

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> It is an old post: I had the feeling that such an agreement was part of the deal with MODI. " if the signature is before the end of the year (2015!) you will get your plane mid 2018 (2015 +3 years) because we are confident on you and we begin to build your plane now.
> 
> The agreement was extended to january 2016 to allow for the signature during the Hollande visit for India’s Republic Day celebrations. But now? We are building the plane, but perhaps some other country would be pleased to have them?
> 
> Qatar?
> 
> Perhaps it explains why there is discussion with Egypt for 12 more Rafale?
> 
> It seems India is late, perhaps too late.



Out of the 27, maybe, aircraft to be delivered in 2018, I'm sure we can manage 4-6 aircraft for IAF. In fact, I don't think Qatar and Egypt can absorb more than 6 each per year. And France is yet to budget for more Rafales after 2019.



Abingdonboy said:


> So when will these 36 start coming to India? It is clear India has blown the opportunity to get them within 2018 thanks to Parrikar.



It is possible from 2018 itself. France may not take any jets in 2018. And all the jets are pretty much the same standard.



> Made in India Rafales by 2019? I don't see how that is possible, the MII deal isn't even signed yet, it will take another 3-4 years to set up the plant in India and then another 2-3 years to churn out the first jet. Realistically speaking, the first MII Rafale will only be in service by 2025.



The date can slip by a year or two at best. We won't be making it from scratch in India in the beginning, we will be assembling kits while the main production line is built. At least 30 of those jets will be in kits, they can start CKD delivery by 2019-20. 60 jets would have increased local content, with the last 2 squadrons with high local content.

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## Abingdonboy

[Bregs] said:


> sometimes our leaders try too hard to shown them self as best ever minister and this seems to be the case of MP. despite being an educated minister he has made many goof up with his tongue too and now this criminal delays again



_
NEW DELHI: Last Tuesday's Cabinet reshuffle happened out of a Prime Minister-led *two-month long assessment process that ranked ministers and ministries,* and also a talent selection process that vetted several MPs before picking 19 for induction in the council of ministers. _

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Parrikar has lofty political ambitions, you can bet he is feeling the heat from this kind of scrutiny. This, in part, explains his eagerness to project himself as a "doer" and to talk as much as he does. Whilst others (Railways, Roads, Power etc) are delivering in performance, he is trying to compensate with talk. Sooner rather than later he will be found out OR he will be forced to start delivering, there is no way Modi is going to accept this situation much longer.

@PARIKRAMA @anant_s @Star Wars @Stephen Cohen @Taygibay @Dash @noksss @Levina @Parul @arp2041

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## noksss

Abingdonboy said:


> _NEW DELHI: Last Tuesday's Cabinet reshuffle happened out of a Prime Minister-led *two-month long assessment process that ranked ministers and ministries,* and also a talent selection process that vetted several MPs before picking 19 for induction in the council of ministers. _
> 
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
> 
> Parrikar has lofty political ambitions, you can bet he is feeling the heat from this kind of scrutiny. This, in part, explains his eagerness to project himself as a "doer" and to talk as much as he does. Whilst others (Railways, Roads, Power etc) are delivering in performance, he is trying to compensate with talk. Sooner rather than later he will be found out OR he will be forced to start delivering, there is no way Modi is going to accept this situation much longer.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @anant_s @Star Wars @Stephen Cohen @Taygibay @Dash @noksss @Levina @Parul @arp2041



Cool down bro parikkar is not worse as you think him to be if not great he is at least doing a good job . Do you think he can get away from such scrutiny by Modi and team by simply talking and not doing anything ?. One of the main reason for your frustration is Rafale deal but when you are dealing with someone like this you have to do some hard bargain

*But India should be careful, since France have dragged the MRCA deal leading to its cancellation. The huge price escalation led to order reduced from 126 to 36 aircrafts without any ToT. France has promised to abide by MRCA tender but it has used every chance to divert the contract to its interest. This offset contract should not be used again by France to secure the Rafale deal but India should make France abide by the clauses of the contract without any loop holes through sovereign guarantee.*

Lets wait for the whole picture to emerge before coming to a conclusion about him.

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## BON PLAN

Abingdonboy said:


> It had been stipulated by @Picdelamirand-oil that production for the first batch of the IAF's Rafales had already begun and would be ready for delivery in mid-2018.


Are you sure it is the first jet for India? for Qatar yes, for India.... I doubt. 
Without a firm order it's a risk (financially and technicaly if these plane aren't the same than France, Qatar or Egyptian ones) for DA to began the production.



randomradio said:


> Out of the 27, maybe, aircraft to be delivered in 2018, I'm sure we can manage 4-6 aircraft for IAF. In fact, I don't think Qatar and Egypt can absorb more than 6 each per year. And France is yet to budget for more Rafales after 2019.


Qatar will take 11 plane/year. It's the contract.

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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> Qatar will take 11 plane/year. It's the contract.



That will still leave a sizable number for India. Production numbers could be 27 in 2018. With 17 booked, there's 10 left.

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## Grevion

randomradio said:


> That will still leave a sizable number for India. Production numbers could be 27 in 2018. With 17 booked, there's 10 left.


Mate any hushed news about the LSA.

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## randomradio

litefire said:


> Mate any hushed news about the LSA.



Nope. Nothing. Rafale deal and FGFA are first. Everything else is for next year.

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> That will still leave a sizable number for India. Production numbers could be 27 in 2018. With 17 booked, there's 10 left.


For the moment, I've read that DA will jump to 2 planes/month x11 working months/year = 22 planes. 5 planes available. To date...

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## Ankit Kumar

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/753557382169448450

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## Abingdonboy

BON PLAN said:


> Are you sure it is the first jet for India? for Qatar yes, for India.... I doubt.
> Without a firm order it's a risk (financially and technicaly if these plane aren't the same than France, Qatar or Egyptian ones) for DA to began the production.


This is just what @Picdelamirand-oil had said last year but clearly as time has progressed that possibility has diminished and will continue to look less and less likely.



Ankit Kumar said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/753557382169448450



@PARIKRAMA seems like more stalling by MP

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## Stephen Cohen

*http://www.newkerala.com/news/2016/fullnews-90216.html*

Defence Acquisition Council briefed about Rafale deal


New Delhi, July 14 : The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) held its meeting here on Thursday and was briefed about the progress in the Rafale fighter jet deal by the committee negotiating its purchase, defence ministry sources said.

They said the DAC directed the committee to submit its report expeditiously. 

The deal for purchasing 36 Rafale combat jets in fly-away condition was inked during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to France last April. 

A negotiating team was constituted to decide on the deal and is holding talks with the French side.

The price has been a major sticking point in the deal with India trying to bring it down for the fighter jet known to be one of the most expensive in the world.

The deal comes with a clause for delivering 50 per cent offsets, expected to generate business worth at least three billion euros for Indian companies.

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## Abingdonboy

noksss said:


> Cool down bro parikkar is not worse as you think him to be if not great he is at least doing a good job . Do you think he can get away from such scrutiny by Modi and team by simply talking and not doing anything ?. One of the main reason for your frustration is Rafale deal but when you are dealing with someone like this you have to do some hard bargain
> 
> *But India should be careful, since France have dragged the MRCA deal leading to its cancellation. The huge price escalation led to order reduced from 126 to 36 aircrafts without any ToT. France has promised to abide by MRCA tender but it has used every chance to divert the contract to its interest. This offset contract should not be used again by France to secure the Rafale deal but India should make France abide by the clauses of the contract without any loop holes through sovereign guarantee.*
> 
> Lets wait for the whole picture to emerge before coming to a conclusion about him.


Fair enough brother but I maintain that he is one of the worst performers in the cabinet and this isn't really a controversial position to take. It is widely accepted the best performing ministries are Roads, Power and Railways (Telecom maybe deserves an honourable mention). I am yet to see the Defence ministry talked about as a "success story". 

We can only judge Parrikar by what he has achieved, not what he would like us to beleive and as far as I can see not much has been gained with him at the helm. The DPP-2016 remains the sole stand out performance but very few deals have been signed, there has been no major defence MII project signed and we are still waiting for structural reforms such as new tri-service commands and the CDS.

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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> For the moment, I've read that DA will jump to 2 planes/month x11 working months/year = 22 planes. 5 planes available. To date...



Yes. 2 per month with Qatar deal and a little more than 2.5 per month after the Indian deal is signed, or any other deal apart from Indian deal.

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## jha

litefire said:


> Mate any hushed news about the LSA.



Whats LSA ?



Ankit Kumar said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/753557382169448450



Good. Take your time but we should get best possible deal. Couple of months dont mean much.

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## Grevion

jha said:


> Whats LSA ?


LSA stands for Light Stealth Aircraft. Nothing much out there about this plane. It could be a dream project for the Indian aviation industry.

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## jha

litefire said:


> LSA stands for Light Stealth Aircraft. Nothing much out there about this plane. It could be a dream project for the Indian aviation industry.



Oh. ok..


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## SR-91

randomradio said:


> Nope. Nothing. Rafale deal and FGFA are first. Everything else is for next year.




What is this Light Stealth Aircraft? Can u give some details on this, thx.


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## randomradio

SR-91 said:


> What is this Light Stealth Aircraft? Can u give some details on this, thx.



It's a light aircraft with VLO features and internal bays for weapons. It has F-22 level performance. It can carry 8 AAMs internally. And with CFTs, it can reach Beijing. It's being made as an escort aircraft for Rafales and MKIs for deep penetration missions.

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## #hydra#

There is a high probability for fresh attack on Isis strong holds in Syria nd Iraq,mistly rafale will lead the French strike.



randomradio said:


> It's a light aircraft with VLO features and internal bays for weapons. It has F-22 level performance. It can carry 8 AAMs internally. And with CFTs, it can reach Beijing. It's being made as an escort aircraft for Rafales and MKIs for deep penetration missions.


Can we launch satellite to space using this masterpiece.

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## randomradio

#hydra# said:


> Can we launch satellite to space using this masterpiece.



The satellite will be very small. 

But, yes, an aircraft can launch satellites.

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## PARIKRAMA

@Abingdonboy
I understand cost negotiations got over a good amount of time back, so were the offset agreements.. 

Perhaps other than financial position of our country + we willing to make payments in Q3/Q4, there is no logical sense. (apart from drought angle which @vstol pointed)

But every time the decision is post poned there will be an increase in suspicion level of reasons behind it and most folks will be painted about Rafale price+ French unwillingness+ etc etc

So i don understand what is really going on in DM MP's mind.. Perhaps milking for more? May be..

Critically Strategic partnership and local Industrial partner selection may be something to do with all this hoopla. Bcz IGA will specify all that right from partner to MII line and the modalities. Perhaps thats the real reason for all the delay.

I dont think the names in front like the Reliance/Adani/Mahindra/Tata/L&T/others , a few of them is giving much confidence or perhaps the issue related to awarding them a contract as big as this from political perspective..

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> It's a light aircraft with VLO features and internal bays for weapons. It has F-22 level performance. It can carry 8 AAMs internally. And with CFTs, it can reach Beijing. It's being made as an escort aircraft for Rafales and MKIs for deep penetration missions.


A light aircraft with 8 AAm in internal bays. It's not contradictory ? (light vs 8 AAM)

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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> A light aircraft with 8 AAm in internal bays. It's not contradictory ? (light vs 8 AAM)



It will start with 6 missiles internally and then will be increased to 8 missiles once new missiles like Astra Mk2 are made.

There will be 3 internal bays in total.

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## SR-91

randomradio said:


> It's a light aircraft with VLO features and internal bays for weapons. It has F-22 level performance. It can carry 8 AAMs internally. And with CFTs, it can reach Beijing. It's being made as an escort aircraft for Rafales and MKIs for deep penetration missions.



Interesting 
Is it a single engined jet?
Is it based on LCA?
What will be it's weight category? 
Where does this leave AMCA?
any other info you can share bro. Thx


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## randomradio

SR-91 said:


> Interesting
> Is it a single engined jet?



Single engine if a foreign engine is chosen. Twin engine if a HAL engine is chosen.



> Is it based on LCA?



No. Based on Mig-21 and Marut.



> What will be it's weight category?



6.5 tons empty. 3.5 tons fuel.



> Where does this leave AMCA?



It won't affect the AMCA. But it will directly challenge the LCA Mk2 program, both AF LCA and N LCA.



> any other info you can share bro. Thx



The design is complete. It will enter squadron service in 4 years after go ahead. The Israelis are interested in 100 jets, they will supply the cockpit and most of the avionics. If the Rafale MII is signed, then the French will become the obvious choice, especially Spectra.

IAF will assemble the jets in their BRDs, private companies will build the parts.

A jet like this can be exported in the hundreds.

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## jha

randomradio said:


> Single engine if a foreign engine is chosen. Twin engine if a HAL engine is chosen.
> 
> 
> 
> No. Based on Mig-21 and Marut.
> 
> 
> 
> 6.5 tons empty. 3.5 tons fuel.
> 
> 
> 
> It won't affect the AMCA. But it will directly challenge the LCA Mk2 program, both AF LCA and N LCA.
> 
> 
> 
> The design is complete. It will enter squadron service in 4 years after go ahead. The Israelis are interested in 100 jets, they will supply the cockpit and most of the avionics. If the Rafale MII is signed, then the French will become the obvious choice, especially Spectra.
> 
> IAF will assemble the jets in their BRDs, private companies will build the parts.
> 
> A jet like this can be exported in the hundreds.



So, it will make use of already developed tech ? Looks like a JV between India-Israel and some components from France. How come no one knows about this when design is also complete ? any rough diagram ?

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## PARIKRAMA

jha said:


> So, it will make use of already developed tech ? Looks like a JV between India-Israel and some components from France. How come no one knows about this when design is also complete ? any rough diagram ?



Well actually many folks know about it right from MOD, IAF folks and many pvtt sector ppl including potential investors as well. Israel folks presentation happened almost 1.5-2months back..

The thing is Israel post Lavi did nt think much and now they realise how a low cost option is available...

More details are there in another forum where random radio us also there and he is a mod there..

But real information n sketches would be there only when the project is green lighted by MOD which seems a likely case.

In the words of the creator of LSA, If Rafale safran offset for Kaveri happens, there is a 75% probability that LSA will become LCA Mk2.

More @randomradio can add on this..

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## jha

PARIKRAMA said:


> Well actually many folks know about it right from MOD, IAF folks and many pvtt sector ppl including potential investors as well. Israel folks presentation happened almost 1.5-2months back..
> 
> The thing is Israel post Lavi did nt think much and now they realise how a low cost option is available...
> 
> More details are there in another forum where random radio us also there and he is a mod there..
> 
> But real information n sketches would be there only when the project is green lighted by MOD which seems a likely case.
> 
> In the words of the creator of LSA, If Rafale safran offset for Kaveri happens, there is a 75% probability that LSA will become LCA Mk2.
> 
> More @randomradio can add on this..



Well this is out of blue. Very hard to believe But Cheers if true.

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## randomradio

jha said:


> So, it will make use of already developed tech ? Looks like a JV between India-Israel and some components from France. How come no one knows about this when design is also complete ? any rough diagram ?



It's not a JV. The Israelis will be subcontractors. The design will be revealed only after it is either canceled or given the go ahead.

It's not completely open source info, at least the media has no clue about it. The industry knows about it.

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> Single engine if a foreign engine is chosen. Twin engine if a HAL engine is chosen.
> 
> 
> 
> No. Based on Mig-21 and Marut.
> 
> 
> 
> 6.5 tons empty. 3.5 tons fuel.
> 
> 
> 
> It won't affect the AMCA. But it will directly challenge the LCA Mk2 program, both AF LCA and N LCA.
> 
> 
> 
> The design is complete. It will enter squadron service in 4 years after go ahead. The Israelis are interested in 100 jets, they will supply the cockpit and most of the avionics. If the Rafale MII is signed, then the French will become the obvious choice, especially Spectra.
> 
> IAF will assemble the jets in their BRDs, private companies will build the parts.
> 
> A jet like this can be exported in the hundreds.


We can imagine France interested in a light fighter, and maybe Tejas itself....

Why?

Because we maybe need a light fighter to made "point defense" in France (in case a liner doesn't answer to control...) and to conduct light support in Africa for exemple. A kind of replacement of Mirage F1 & 2000..... As Rafale is costlier for these missions, even if it's interesting in term of support to have a sole fighter.
And if this plane use the same engin than Rafale (or MLU Rafale).... hummm ! Goooood.....

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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> We can imagine France interested in a light fighter, and maybe Tejas itself....
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because we maybe need a light fighter to made "point defense" in France (in case a liner doesn't answer to control...) and to conduct light support in Africa for exemple. A kind of replacement of Mirage F1 & 2000..... As Rafale is costlier for these missions, even if it's interesting in term of support to have a sole fighter.



You have two choices. Either import the jet from India in the short term. Or upgrade your Mirage-2000s and use them until 2035 in the long term. By then Rafales will become your light fighter with new jets coming in.



> And if this plane use the same engin than Rafale (or MLU Rafale).... hummm ! Goooood.....



If India accepts France's offer of upgrading the Kaveri, then it is very likely that both LSA and Rafale will fly with similar engines. Most components will be the same even if LSA needs more thrust. Even Tejas.

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> You have two choices. Either import the jet from India in the short term. Or upgrade your Mirage-2000s and use them until 2035 in the long term. By then Rafales will become your light fighter with new jets coming in.
> 
> 
> 
> If India accepts France's offer of upgrading the Kaveri, then it is very likely that both LSA and Rafale will fly with similar engines. Most components will be the same even if LSA needs more thrust. Even Tejas.


Rafale to become our light fighter? I don't think so.


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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> Rafale to become our light fighter? I don't think so.



It will once you make FCAS and a new 6th gen air superiority aircraft. I'm talking about post 2030.

While it is in my country's interest that you buy Tejas or LSA, what I proposed is in the interest of your companies, upgrading M-2000 for service until 2030-35.

Once FCAS and a new air superiority aircraft are ready in France, then Rafale will become a light aircraft. Like how the Russians consider Rafale to be a light aircraft because their own jets are 30 tons+.


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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> It will once you make FCAS and a new 6th gen air superiority aircraft. I'm talking about post 2030.
> 
> While it is in my country's interest that you buy Tejas or LSA, what I proposed is in the interest of your companies, upgrading M-2000 for service until 2030-35.
> 
> Once FCAS and a new air superiority aircraft are ready in France, then Rafale will become a light aircraft. Like how the Russians consider Rafale to be a light aircraft because their own jets are 30 tons+.


Mirage 2000D are going to be upgraded. Mirage 2000-5 will stay also, at least to 2025.


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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> Mirage 2000D are going to be upgraded. Mirage 2000-5 will stay also, at least to 2025.



Yeah, so you don't really need a light fighter when you can upgrade the existing M-2000s. Your jets are also newer than IAF's jets.


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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> Yeah, so you don't really need a light fighter when you can upgrade the existing M-2000s. Your jets are also newer than IAF's jets.


55 Mirage 2000D will be upgraded. Only for A to G mission. No radar change (mainly able to make low level flights). Mica IR integrated, but without radar.... a king of super short range missile.

There is only less than 30 Mirage 2000-5F on line.

I think there is space for a new light multirole fighter. For low or medium intensity battlefiled. for 2030+


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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> 55 Mirage 2000D will be upgraded. Only for A to G mission. No radar change (mainly able to make low level flights). Mica IR integrated, but without radar.... a king of super short range missile.
> 
> There is only less than 30 Mirage 2000-5F on line.
> 
> I think there is space for a new light multirole fighter. For low or medium intensity battlefiled. for 2030+



If you don't upgrade M-2000C, then go ahead and buy LCA or LSA. I'm all for it.


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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> If you don't upgrade M-2000C, then go ahead and buy LCA or LSA. I'm all for it.


Mirage 2000C will not been upgraded. It's sure.
Withdrawal is in course.


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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> Mirage 2000C will not been upgraded. It's sure.
> Withdrawal is in course.



Then I am all for exporting jets to France. Wonder what @Picdelamirand-oil thinks.


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## rockstarIN

PARIKRAMA said:


> Well actually many folks know about it right from MOD, IAF folks and many pvtt sector ppl including potential investors as well. Israel folks presentation happened almost 1.5-2months back..
> 
> The thing is Israel post Lavi did nt think much and now they realise how a low cost option is available...
> 
> More details are there in another forum where random radio us also there and he is a mod there..
> 
> But real information n sketches would be there only when the project is green lighted by MOD which seems a likely case.
> 
> In the words of the creator of LSA, If Rafale safran offset for Kaveri happens, there is a 75% probability that LSA will become LCA Mk2.
> 
> More @randomradio can add on this..



Is this jet what Dm talks about? 90+ jets under MII?



randomradio said:


> It's not a JV. The Israelis will be subcontractors. The design will be revealed only after it is either canceled or given the go ahead.
> 
> It's not completely open source info, at least the media has no clue about it. The industry knows about it.



Where does it fit? how and why MoD okays it since LCA Mk2 is there?

Or is it 5th Gen capable with full internal bays?

And you are saying design is frozen even not knowing if it is a single and double engine?

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## PARIKRAMA

rockstarIN said:


> Is this jet what Dm talks about? 90+ jets under MII?



Its possible..We have to wait for some time..

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## randomradio

rockstarIN said:


> Where does it fit? how and why MoD okays it since LCA Mk2 is there?
> 
> Or is it 5th Gen capable with full internal bays?



Yes, 5th gen, internal bays, supercruise etc.



> And you are saying design is frozen even not knowing if it is a single and double engine?



The single engine design is. The design is frozen in the sense that it is a complete aircraft from the company's perspective, but changes can be made depending on what the user wants, including engine.

The designer says he can go for twin engine in case HAL absorbs French tech into their own engine programs. Then there won't be a need to import the engines, making the jet cheaper.

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## jha

randomradio said:


> Yes, 5th gen, internal bays, supercruise etc.
> 
> 
> 
> The single engine design is. The design is frozen in the sense that it is a complete aircraft from the *company's perspective,* but changes can be made depending on what the user wants, including engine.
> 
> The designer says he can go for twin engine in case HAL absorbs French tech into their own engine programs. Then there won't be a need to import the engines, making the jet cheaper.



Its not HAL's design ? which company ? Reliance or, Tata ?


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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> The design is complete. It will enter squadron service in 4 years after go ahead. The Israelis are interested in 100 jets, they will supply the cockpit and most of the avionics. If the Rafale MII is signed, then the French will become the obvious choice, especially Spectra.
> 
> IAF will assemble the jets in their BRDs, private companies will build the parts.
> 
> A jet like this can be exported in the hundreds.



The LSA is a pipe dream. No one with real mil avia knowledge will buy the above.
But I'm glad you posted that. I hope the Creator keeps you ( & myself ) safe until
2020-21 so that I can repost that quote ( copied to HD ) to your face.

Ridiculous!

Tay.

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> The LSA is a pipe dream. No one with real mil avia knowledge will buy the above.
> But I'm glad you posted that. I hope the Creator keeps you ( & myself ) safe until
> 2020-21 so that I can repost that quote ( copied to HD ) to your face.
> 
> Ridiculous!
> 
> Tay.



It doesn't matter either way. Whether it fails or not, I have nothing to lose. Only you are being childish and bitter about it.



jha said:


> Its not HAL's design ? which company ? Reliance or, Tata ?



It's a small group. India's Fighter Mafia.

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## PARIKRAMA

According to Rajat Pandit: In parliament DM MP said deal not yet completed, offset not yet negotiated


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## Ankit Kumar 002

PARIKRAMA said:


> According to Rajat Pandit: In parliament DM MP said deal not yet completed, offset not yet negotiated
> 
> View attachment 318806



Going by the past record of T0I and its Rafale or for that any of its defence reporting , we should try to keep it out. Credibility is not better than what IDWR has.

Their last report on LRSAM does nothing but prove a my point.

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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Going by the past record of T0I and its Rafale or for that any of its defence reporting , we should try to keep it out. Credibility is not better than what IDWR has.
> 
> Their last report on LRSAM does nothing but prove a my point.



I take it reverse way..

Since TOI and Rajat Pandit said so and DM MP also gave similar views in Parliament which was picked by sputnik who came out with another article on Rafale India deal, i expect things are actually on right track.

i expect Saab, and LM to catch this and come out with articles in coming days to raise the anti rafale campaign

BTW i did check with my sources and the article of Euro 150K haggling was utterly false..

The haggling from our side will happen in minimum of 1000s of Crores not merely few crores..The article was more to highlight like always high cost angle.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

PARIKRAMA said:


> I take it reverse way..
> 
> Since TOI and Rajat Pandit said so and DM MP also gave similar views in Parliament which was picked by sputnik who came out with another article on Rafale India deal, i expect things are actually on right track.
> 
> i expect Saab, and LM to catch this and come out with articles in coming days to raise the anti rafale campaign
> 
> BTW i did check with my sources and the article of Euro 150K haggling was utterly false..
> 
> The haggling from our side will happen in minimum of 1000s of Crores not merely few crores..The article was more to highlight like always high cost angle.



Haggling for cost for " 36" have been done. Its more about negotiations for offsets and the post plans for India built airframes and possible leverage to French Defence establishments to develop solutions for Indian Armed Forces.

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## rockstarIN

randomradio said:


> It doesn't matter either way. Whether it fails or not, I have nothing to lose. Only you are being childish and bitter about it.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a small group. India's Fighter Mafia.



Is there any tweets, at least, about this by any known guys like saurav jha etc.?


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## Ankit Kumar 002

rockstarIN said:


> Is there any tweets, at least, about this by any known guys like saurav jha etc.?



Nothing , absolutely nothing.

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## zebra7

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Nothing , absolutely nothing.



Only one name Volstok Jockey, He is a God of Aviation !!!

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## SR-91

randomradio said:


> Yes, 5th gen, internal bays, supercruise etc.
> 
> 
> 
> The single engine design is. The design is frozen in the sense that it is a complete aircraft from the company's perspective, but changes can be made depending on what the user wants, including engine.
> 
> The designer says he can go for twin engine in case HAL absorbs French tech into their own engine programs. Then there won't be a need to import the engines, making the jet cheaper.




Bro, does the designer have anything to do with @vstoljockey? He was on this forum a few years back.
He was designing an aircraft based on Marut. Had over $200 million in funding. He was very optimistic but not many believed him.

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> I take it reverse way..
> 
> Since TOI and Rajat Pandit said so and DM MP also gave similar views in Parliament which was picked by sputnik who came out with another article on Rafale India deal, i expect things are actually on right track.
> 
> i expect Saab, and LM to catch this and come out with articles in coming days to raise the anti rafale campaign
> 
> BTW i did check with my sources and the article of Euro 150K haggling was utterly false..
> 
> The haggling from our side will happen in minimum of 1000s of Crores not merely few crores..The article was more to highlight like always high cost angle.



Hello Sir ji 

If the Off set negotiations BREAK down then what 

And suppose they stretch on Two more years


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## randomradio

SR-91 said:


> Bro, does the designer have anything to do with @vstoljockey? He was on this forum a few years back.
> He was designing an aircraft based on Marut. Had over $200 million in funding. He was very optimistic but not many believed him.



Yeah. His name has been mentioned many times before.

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## SR-91

randomradio said:


> Yes, 5th gen, internal bays, supercruise etc.
> 
> 
> 
> The single engine design is. The design is frozen in the sense that it is a complete aircraft from the company's perspective, but changes can be made depending on what the user wants, including engine.
> 
> The designer says he can go for twin engine in case HAL absorbs French tech into their own engine programs. Then there won't be a need to import the engines, making the jet cheaper.




Self delete


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## 4GTejasBVR

randomradio said:


> Single engine if a foreign engine is chosen. Twin engine if a HAL engine is chosen.
> 
> 
> 
> No. Based on Mig-21 and Marut.
> 
> 
> 
> 6.5 tons empty. 3.5 tons fuel.
> 
> 
> 
> It won't affect the AMCA. But it will directly challenge the LCA Mk2 program, both AF LCA and N LCA.
> 
> 
> 
> The design is complete. It will enter squadron service in 4 years after go ahead. The Israelis are interested in 100 jets, they will supply the cockpit and most of the avionics. If the Rafale MII is signed, then the French will become the obvious choice, especially Spectra.
> 
> IAF will assemble the jets in their BRDs, private companies will build the parts.
> 
> A jet like this can be exported in the hundreds.


What the hell is this ? Any source to claim ?



randomradio said:


> If you don't upgrade M-2000C, then go ahead and buy LCA or LSA. I'm all for it.





BON PLAN said:


> Mirage 2000D are going to be upgraded. Mirage 2000-5 will stay also, at least to 2025.



Am not sure what is this LSA all about... It's too good to be true. Anyway . India should scrap it's LCA 2 program and directly go for Stealthy Tejas light fighter . No Vertical launched. Just a normal simple 5th gen single engined. Wonder what is the use of having 4 the gen fighter which could enter production only after 2022-25 ? As it's life is expected to be 20 plus years are beyond . Of course France Israeli and India should come together for LCA stealth fighter jet . So all profits are equally shared while each of us getting cheap next gen fighter for mass induction. To augment our heavy fighter fleet . 

But will it happen? Big NO


----------



## Local_Legend

*IGA, offset contract on Rafale deal not yet finalised; Govt*

New Delhi, Jul 19 () The government today said the Inter Government Agreement and the offset contract for the multi-billion Euro Rafale fighter jet deal is yet to be finalised.

In a written reply to Rajya Sabha, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said details including transfer of technology through offsets will emerge after the negotiations are completed.

"The negotiations are underway and IGA and offset contract are yet to be finalized," he said.

The Minister said 36 aircraft being procured will have advanced features like Advanced Electronically Scanned Array Radar, mid-air refuelling and advanced electronic warfare equipment as part of its design.

According to defence sources, the deal is estimated to be around 7.89 billion Euros.

The price was brought down from nearly 10 billion Euros, as sought initially, due to various reasons, including the discount offered by the French government and reworking of some of the criteria.

The deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and creating thousands of new jobs in India through the offsets.

Meanwhile in another reply, Parrikar said 18 more Tejas aircraft in IOC (Initial Operation Clearance) standard are planned for induction by 2018-19, besides the two already inducted.

This would be followed by 20 more aircraft in Final Operation Configuration (FOC) standard, which are planned for induction from year 2019.

The total expenditure incurred on development of Tejas LCA Mk-I aircraft, as on June 30 is Rs 8042.46 crore, he said.

The total initial sanctioned cost for Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) for LCA was Rs 5489.78 crore which was later escalated to Rs 9121.07 crore.

The indigenous content of LCA is about 70 per cent and import content is about 30 per cent. The aircraft is indigenously designed and developed and the technology for production of this aircraft is available in the country.

LCA Tejas shall be an important part of IAF's fighter aircraft inventory filling up the lightweight category of fighters and shall be effectively used for air defence and for battlefield air strikes, Parrikar said. SAP VMN 
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...t-yet-finalised-Govt/articleshow/53285164.cms

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## BON PLAN

4GTejasBVR said:


> What the hell is this ? Any source to claim ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am not sure what is this LSA all about... It's too good to be true. Anyway . India should scrap it's LCA 2 program and directly go for Stealthy Tejas light fighter . No Vertical launched. Just a normal simple 5th gen single engined. Wonder what is the use of having 4 the gen fighter which could enter production only after 2022-25 ? As it's life is expected to be 20 plus years are beyond . Of course France Israeli and India should come together for LCA stealth fighter jet . So all profits are equally shared while each of us getting cheap next gen fighter for mass induction. To augment our heavy fighter fleet .
> 
> But will it happen? Big NO


Stealth will be definitively broken in some few years (or even already broken), with new equipments (AESA, metric wave length, optronic devices, multi static radars...).
The so called 5th gen is only a (brillant) marketing argument of LM, and basta.

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## General Observer

Lol stealthy Tejas hahaha. Is that going to come after another 36 years from now?


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## R!CK

General Observer said:


> Lol stealthy Tejas hahaha. Is that going to come after another 36 years from now?



I'd agree talks of a stealthy Tejas is pointless until we have the much hyped Mk 2 version flying. Optimism is good, but too much creates too little success.

Good Day all!


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## General Observer

R!CK said:


> I'd agree talks of a stealthy Tejas is pointless until we have the much hyped Mk 2 version flying. Optimism is good, but too much creates too little success.
> 
> Good Day all!


 
You guys might as well just participate in the F35 program... Neither your homegrown nor Ruskie endeavors are bearing any fruits.


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## R!CK

General Observer said:


> You guys might as well just participate in the F35 program... Neither your homegrown nor Ruskie endeavors are bearing any fruits.



Only time will tell. I'd just hope for the best to happen.


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## Stephen Cohen

@PARIKRAMA 

http://www.airforce-technology.com/...fale-combat-aircraft-deal-with-france-4954721

*India to finalise Rafale combat aircraft deal with France

20 July 2016


The Government of India is set to finalise the purchase of 36 Rafale combat aircraft in fly-away condition from France for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The move comes as the IAF is in critical operational necessity for multirole combat aircraft.

The Dassault Aviation-built multi-role jet fighter will be supplied as part of an intergovernmental agreement (IGA) signed by France and India in January this year.
*

*The long-awaited medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract is expected to be worth more than $20bn.

The IAF initially planned to acquire 126 Rafale aircraft, with the first 18 jets to be manufactured in France from the second quarter of 2015 onwards, while the remaining 108 to be locally built following a technology transfer to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

The countries, however, could not reach an agreement as Dassault refused to provide guarantees for the fighters built in India.

The new MMRCA aircraft will feature an advanced electronically scanned array radar, mid-air refuelling and advanced electronic warfare equipment.

Powered by two SNECMA M88 engines, Rafale has been designed to conduct air-to-air combat, reconnaissance flights and nuclear bombing missions.

The aircraft can be fitted with anti-ship and air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles. It is in use with the French Navy and Air Force, and has also been ordered by Egypt.

A negotiating team has been formed to negotiate the terms and conditions of the procurement of Rafale jets and recommend a draft agreement.

The negotiations are currently underway and the IGA is yet to be finalised.
*

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## nik141993

Stephen Cohen said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> 
> *India to finalise Rafale combat aircraft deal*


another finalisation


> The negotiations are currently underway and the IGA is yet to be finalised.

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## Stephen Cohen

nik141993 said:


> another finalisation



At least a little good news 

Something is better than Nothing

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## ashok321

http://www.airforce-technology.com/...fale-combat-aircraft-deal-with-france-4954721

The Government of India is set to finalise the purchase of 36 Rafale combat aircraft in fly-away condition from France for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The move comes as the IAF is in critical operational necessity for multirole combat aircraft.

The Dassault Aviation-built multi-role jet fighter will be supplied as part of an intergovernmental agreement (IGA) signed by France and India in January this year.

"The long-awaited medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract is expected to be worth more than $20bn."
The long-awaited medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract is expected to be worth more than $20bn.

The IAF initially planned to acquire 126 Rafale aircraft, with the first 18 jets to be manufactured in France from the second quarter of 2015 onwards, while the remaining 108 to be locally built following a technology transfer to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

The countries, however, could not reach an agreement as Dassault refused to provide guarantees for the fighters built in India.

The new MMRCA aircraft will feature an advanced electronically scanned array radar, mid-air refuelling and advanced electronic warfare equipment.

Powered by two SNECMA M88 engines, Rafale has been designed to conduct air-to-air combat, reconnaissance flights and nuclear bombing missions.

The aircraft can be fitted with anti-ship and air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles. It is in use with the French Navy and Air Force, and has also been ordered by Egypt.

A negotiating team has been formed to negotiate the terms and conditions of the procurement of Rafale jets and recommend a draft agreement.

The negotiations are currently underway and the IGA is yet to be finalised.


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## PARIKRAMA

@waz @WAJsal @Oscar @mods

Request you to move the following threads to this sticky.. It all pertains to Rafale news only

https://defence.pk/threads/india-to-finalise-rafale-combat-aircraft-deal-with-france.440429/
https://defence.pk/threads/where-is...-fighter-jet-deal-stuck-find-out-here.440422/
https://defence.pk/threads/has-defense-minister-pulled-off-a-coup-in-rafale-offset-contract.439209/
https://defence.pk/threads/iga-offset-contract-on-rafale-deal-not-yet-finalised-government.440153/
https://defence.pk/threads/french-d...big-on-india-scouts-for-more-partners.439781/
https://defence.pk/threads/india-seeks-further-discount-for-rafale.439544/
https://defence.pk/threads/mmrca-redux-in-india’s-new-fighter-aircraft-selection.439526/

Thanks and Regards,

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## hussain0216




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## Ankit Kumar 002

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/754870236915109888

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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/754870236915109888


Its waiting for a note from DM MP right from May month beginning for CCS clearance and formal invitation to sign the agreement .. 
Everything else is a hogwash being carried out bcz of the fact that we want to make payments in Q3/Q4..

If all the so called price, offsets to even some rules (legal issues) were such big issues, we would have seen much more in terms of contacts and meetings.

How many of the folks even know that in June French Ambassador to India changed. and French Amb was already the one who was leading the communication between French and Indian government. The new ambassador is Mr Alexandre ZIEGLER whereas previous amb was Mr Francois Richier. 

Mr Richier was deeply involved in Rafale jet deal along with N-Plant. He was also one of the major forces who strengthened Indian Cop21 commitment by pushing for Solar Energy investment in India. Rumour in Delhi circle says he has a very happy and close relationship with our NSA.

Mr Ziegler is now connecting the dots and trying to pick up from where Richier left. and Its not easy winning trust and confidence from day 1. By the way previously he was Chief of Staff and worked in the office of Laurent Fabius..

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## GuardianRED

ashok321 said:


> http://www.airforce-technology.com/...fale-combat-aircraft-deal-with-france-4954721
> 
> The Government of India is set to finalise the purchase of 36 Rafale combat aircraft in fly-away condition from France for the Indian Air Force (IAF).
> 
> The move comes as the IAF is in critical operational necessity for multirole combat aircraft.
> 
> The Dassault Aviation-built multi-role jet fighter will be supplied as part of an intergovernmental agreement (IGA) signed by France and India in January this year.
> 
> "The long-awaited medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract is expected to be worth more than $20bn."
> The long-awaited medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract is expected to be worth more than $20bn.
> 
> The IAF initially planned to acquire 126 Rafale aircraft, with the first 18 jets to be manufactured in France from the second quarter of 2015 onwards, while the remaining 108 to be locally built following a technology transfer to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
> 
> The countries, however, could not reach an agreement as Dassault refused to provide guarantees for the fighters built in India.
> 
> The new MMRCA aircraft will feature an advanced electronically scanned array radar, mid-air refuelling and advanced electronic warfare equipment.
> 
> Powered by two SNECMA M88 engines, Rafale has been designed to conduct air-to-air combat, reconnaissance flights and nuclear bombing missions.
> 
> The aircraft can be fitted with anti-ship and air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles. It is in use with the French Navy and Air Force, and has also been ordered by Egypt.
> 
> A negotiating team has been formed to negotiate the terms and conditions of the procurement of Rafale jets and recommend a draft agreement.
> 
> The negotiations are currently underway and the IGA is yet to be finalised.


Bro Honestly we should stop posting articles like this !!... read something like this way too many times!!!.... Lets us be surprised and happy when they Actual sign !!!!

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## Grevion

The govt has been close to signing the deal for the millionth time now.

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## Blue Marlin

lets see if our little birdy has any info
@PARIKRAMA do you have anything on this ?

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## I M Sikander

I wish some day our generations are alive to see any jet produced under this once upon a time so called mother of all deals. 

Hahahah


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## I M Sikander

ashok321 said:


> http://www.airforce-technology.com/...fale-combat-aircraft-deal-with-france-4954721
> 
> The Government of India is set to finalise the purchase of 36 Rafale combat aircraft in fly-away condition from France for the Indian Air Force (IAF).
> 
> The move comes as the IAF is in critical operational necessity for multirole combat aircraft.
> 
> The Dassault Aviation-built multi-role jet fighter will be supplied as part of an intergovernmental agreement (IGA) signed by France and India in January this year.
> 
> "The long-awaited medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract is expected to be worth more than $20bn."
> The long-awaited medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract is expected to be worth more than $20bn.
> 
> The IAF initially planned to acquire 126 Rafale aircraft, with the first 18 jets to be manufactured in France from the second quarter of 2015 onwards, while the remaining 108 to be locally built following a technology transfer to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
> 
> The countries, however, could not reach an agreement as Dassault refused to provide guarantees for the fighters built in India.
> 
> The new MMRCA aircraft will feature an advanced electronically scanned array radar, mid-air refuelling and advanced electronic warfare equipment.
> 
> Powered by two SNECMA M88 engines, Rafale has been designed to conduct air-to-air combat, reconnaissance flights and nuclear bombing missions.
> 
> The aircraft can be fitted with anti-ship and air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles. It is in use with the French Navy and Air Force, and has also been ordered by Egypt.
> 
> A negotiating team has been formed to negotiate the terms and conditions of the procurement of Rafale jets and recommend a draft agreement.
> 
> The negotiations are currently underway and the IGA is yet to be finalised.



almost 10000 thread on this ****...d up, a deal for just 36 jets. Poor IAF and its depleting squadrons.


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## PARIKRAMA

Blue Marlin said:


> lets see if our little birdy has any info
> @PARIKRAMA do you have anything on this ?


Yes,
I asked mods to merge this thread and all Rafale threads to the sticky 

But seriously, you should see how everyday at least a couple of articles will come out about Rafale. And focus is still the same old points.. Whole MMRCA $20Bn + .. that is really going long long back..

Those points are over way back. In the sticky @Ankit Kumar 002 posted a good reporter hearing deal is hitting CCS. now that can happen only when price, offset and all modalities are completed. THats what I said back from April May that only a note from DM MP is pending. He is delaying it bcz payments are meant to be made in Q3 end/ Q4. Anyways BJP jumped the gun by announcing Rafale deal and achievement of PM NaMo so now it's more of a point to prove DM MP negotiated everything better than before..

Wait for August, I am sure good news should be out.. beyond September end I believe French side would give up completely unless they are courted by India again with some carrot.

India should not forget France will have a election and the Australian sub deal, 36 Rafales and Make in India plan for Rafales and the N reactors goes to help Francois Hollande or else Nicholas Sarkozy will be back in power. And Sarkozy is again a very good friend of India of course

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## WhyCry

Ranasikander said:


> I wish some day our generations are alive to see any jet produced under this once upon a time so called mother of all deals.
> 
> Hahahah


Don't worry pakistan is not going have any, not in your lifetime or any others.


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## Grevion

The deal will only be signed if our honorable DM decides to reopen his butt cr@cks which are sealed because he has been sitting on the file for too long.

No offence to @PARIKRAMA if the rumours are true and you are indeed DM Parrikar.

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## Green Angel

*36 Deals for 36 Fighter jets......*

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## I M Sikander

Dev Destroyer said:


> Don't worry pakistan is not going have any, not in your lifetime or any others.


You neither have either despite all tall claims for the last 13 years


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## I M Sikander

Kishore said:


> Good development .. India is negotiating rafale and Pakistan is negotiating jets with Jordan .


Nothing new india is doing this nonsense for the last 12 year without getting a single jet. Carry on.


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## nang2

This process reminds me the limit definition in calculus.

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## Local_Legend

There was an ad of Asian Paints where the house owner requests Mr. Yamraj to come after the exterior paint got dimmed . If I was he , I will say come after Raffle deal is signed . I will live more than that Asian Paint guy because they gives warrenty for just 5 freaking years. For this deal ?????

This is MOD version of Mauka Mauka ad and I feel like the person who holds the pataka box.

Every time gets ready to celebrate and at the end opens a Mc Dowels Celeberation half liter


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## Thorough Pro

What's new to warrant a new thread for the same old story that we have been hearing for many years?




ashok321 said:


> http://www.airforce-technology.com/news/newsindia-
> to-finalise-rafale-combat-aircraft-deal-with-france-4954721
> 
> *The Government of India is set to finalise the purchase of 36 Rafale combat aircraft in fly-away condition* from France for the Indian Air Force (IAF).
> 
> The move comes as the IAF is in critical operational necessity for multirole combat aircraft.
> 
> The Dassault Aviation-built multi-role jet fighter will be supplied as part of an intergovernmental agreement (IGA) signed by France and India in January this year.
> 
> "The long-awaited medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract is expected to be worth more than $20bn."
> The long-awaited medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract is expected to be worth more than $20bn.
> 
> The IAF initially planned to acquire 126 Rafale aircraft, with the first 18 jets to be manufactured in France from the second quarter of 2015 onwards, while the remaining 108 to be locally built following a technology transfer to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
> 
> The countries, however, could not reach an agreement as Dassault refused to provide guarantees for the fighters built in India.
> 
> The new MMRCA aircraft will feature an advanced electronically scanned array radar, mid-air refuelling and advanced electronic warfare equipment.
> 
> Powered by two SNECMA M88 engines, Rafale has been designed to conduct air-to-air combat, reconnaissance flights and nuclear bombing missions.
> 
> The aircraft can be fitted with anti-ship and air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles. It is in use with the French Navy and Air Force, and has also been ordered by Egypt.
> 
> A negotiating team has been formed to negotiate the terms and conditions of the procurement of Rafale jets and recommend a draft agreement.
> 
> The negotiations are currently underway and the IGA is yet to be finalised.


----------



## PARIKRAMA

Reuters India ‏@ReutersIndia
Dassault Aviation CEO says concluded negotiations for #Rafale sale to India, waiting for final purchasing decision


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/756156515128635393

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## kaykay

PARIKRAMA said:


> Reuters India ‏@ReutersIndia
> Dassault Aviation CEO says concluded negotiations for #Rafale sale to India, waiting for final purchasing decision
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/756156515128635393


Big statement. Though this melodrama will go on for few more weeks if not months before deal will be signed.

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## PARIKRAMA

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/756166234534739968







*Dassault cuts Falcon jet delivery forecast as first-half profit falls*
PARIS | BY TIM HEPHER AND CYRIL ALTMEYER
) cut its delivery forecast for Falcon business jets by 17 percent after posting lower first-half operating income and revenue on Thursday, hit by a price battle in the economically sensitive business jet market.

*The family-controlled maker of business jets and Rafale warplanes said it would deliver 50 Falcon jets in 2016, down from a previous target of 60, and 55 deliveries in 2015.*

Chief Executive Eric Trappier said the first half had been marked by economic and geopolitical uncertainty, including the decision by UK voters to leave the European Union, prompting some buyers to defer taking decisions on purchasing luxury jets.

"There is strong pressure on prices across the whole range," he told a news conference, adding that Canadian rival Bombardier was "certainly the most aggressive in cutting prices."

A spokesman for Bombardier (BBDb.TO) responded, "We are in a very competitive market right now. We don’t believe any single (manufacturer) is impacted any more than another, and all are facing the same pressures."

Trappier also said ample availability of second-hand planes was piling pressure on prices.

Dassault Aviation's first-half operating profit fell to 125 million euros($137.66 million) from 144 million as revenue slipped to 1.662 billion euros from 1.675 billion.

The French company slowed down R&D spending.

Analysts were on average expecting stable operating profit of 143 million euros on sales of 1.51 billion.

*Weakening or sluggish economies around the globe are taking a toll on business jet sales, forestalling an incipient recovery that had raised the hopes of planemakers last year.*

"We are getting ready for low levels for some time ... in terms of production," Trappier said.

Falcon revenues fell to 853 million euros from 919 million as Dassault delivered 15 jets, three fewer than the first half of last year. New orders for the jets fell to 22 from 25.

Dassault said it expects to deliver its first Falcon 8X version in the fourth quarter as planned.

The Falcon 5X has already been pushed back to 2020 from 2017 due to problems in developing the Silvercrest engine at France's Safran (SAF.PA) and Trappier said Dassault was now in talks to receive penalty payments

The company reaffirmed its full-year revenues were expected to fall in 2016, compared with 2015, which had been boosted by a Mirage 2000 fighter modernization project in India.

($1 = 0.9080 euros)

*On the defense business, Trappier said Dassault had concluded detailed discussions over the sale of 36 combat jets to India and was waiting for a final Indian decision.*

He also said Dassault is responding to a new request for information from Canada for a possible fighter purchase but that it remains unclear whether Ottawa is ready to buy non-U.S. jets.

He took a swipe at the Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) F-35 fighter previously chosen by Canada, which staged its first major international appearance at air shows in Britain last week.

"It may not be the airplane for them," he said, adding that the displays, while popular with UK aviations fans, had demonstrated a lack of maneuverability needed for air defense.

U.S. officials say the F-35 is as maneuverable and capable as most current jets, despite some studies that showed a gap. But they argue the jet will probably never see air-to-air combat because of its superior radar and stealthy coatings which allow it to see enemy jets long before they could be engaged.



(Additional reporting by Andrea Shalal. Editing by Jane Merriman, Susan Thomas and Alexandra Hudson)
http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-dassault-avi-results-idUKKCN1012HZ


++
I said that .. is nt it?
Now you know DM MP was resisiting signing for the sake of differing payments to later dates,,

From April end onwards this game is ON
Right when in Jan PM NaMo and Prez Hollande met the timeline was 4 weeks converted to months and from that time onwards its our own side which is dragging it ... Unfortunately BJP twitter announcing PM NaMo and crediting him for rafale only created more issues,, 

Its good that French side is patient enough.. and yes of course in the end its we whose making a mockery of prolonging an impending signature
++




kaykay said:


> Big statement. Though this melodrama will go on for few more weeks if not months before deal will be signed.


Yes, thats true..
I am expecting a strong anti Rafale campaign.. I expect Saab and LM and Sputnik - all to go on overdrive mode to discredit the deal.

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## BON PLAN

litefire said:


> The govt has been close to signing the deal for the millionth time now.


unfortunately, you are right....

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## Ankit Kumar 002

PARIKRAMA said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/756166234534739968
> View attachment 319636
> 
> 
> 
> *Dassault cuts Falcon jet delivery forecast as first-half profit falls*
> PARIS | BY TIM HEPHER AND CYRIL ALTMEYER
> ) cut its delivery forecast for Falcon business jets by 17 percent after posting lower first-half operating income and revenue on Thursday, hit by a price battle in the economically sensitive business jet market.
> 
> *The family-controlled maker of business jets and Rafale warplanes said it would deliver 50 Falcon jets in 2016, down from a previous target of 60, and 55 deliveries in 2015.*
> 
> Chief Executive Eric Trappier said the first half had been marked by economic and geopolitical uncertainty, including the decision by UK voters to leave the European Union, prompting some buyers to defer taking decisions on purchasing luxury jets.
> 
> "There is strong pressure on prices across the whole range," he told a news conference, adding that Canadian rival Bombardier was "certainly the most aggressive in cutting prices."
> 
> A spokesman for Bombardier (BBDb.TO) responded, "We are in a very competitive market right now. We don’t believe any single (manufacturer) is impacted any more than another, and all are facing the same pressures."
> 
> Trappier also said ample availability of second-hand planes was piling pressure on prices.
> 
> Dassault Aviation's first-half operating profit fell to 125 million euros($137.66 million) from 144 million as revenue slipped to 1.662 billion euros from 1.675 billion.
> 
> The French company slowed down R&D spending.
> 
> Analysts were on average expecting stable operating profit of 143 million euros on sales of 1.51 billion.
> 
> *Weakening or sluggish economies around the globe are taking a toll on business jet sales, forestalling an incipient recovery that had raised the hopes of planemakers last year.*
> 
> "We are getting ready for low levels for some time ... in terms of production," Trappier said.
> 
> Falcon revenues fell to 853 million euros from 919 million as Dassault delivered 15 jets, three fewer than the first half of last year. New orders for the jets fell to 22 from 25.
> 
> Dassault said it expects to deliver its first Falcon 8X version in the fourth quarter as planned.
> 
> The Falcon 5X has already been pushed back to 2020 from 2017 due to problems in developing the Silvercrest engine at France's Safran (SAF.PA) and Trappier said Dassault was now in talks to receive penalty payments
> 
> The company reaffirmed its full-year revenues were expected to fall in 2016, compared with 2015, which had been boosted by a Mirage 2000 fighter modernization project in India.
> 
> ($1 = 0.9080 euros)
> 
> *On the defense business, Trappier said Dassault had concluded detailed discussions over the sale of 36 combat jets to India and was waiting for a final Indian decision.*
> 
> He also said Dassault is responding to a new request for information from Canada for a possible fighter purchase but that it remains unclear whether Ottawa is ready to buy non-U.S. jets.
> 
> He took a swipe at the Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) F-35 fighter previously chosen by Canada, which staged its first major international appearance at air shows in Britain last week.
> 
> "It may not be the airplane for them," he said, adding that the displays, while popular with UK aviations fans, had demonstrated a lack of maneuverability needed for air defense.
> 
> U.S. officials say the F-35 is as maneuverable and capable as most current jets, despite some studies that showed a gap. But they argue the jet will probably never see air-to-air combat because of its superior radar and stealthy coatings which allow it to see enemy jets long before they could be engaged.
> 
> 
> 
> (Additional reporting by Andrea Shalal. Editing by Jane Merriman, Susan Thomas and Alexandra Hudson)
> http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-dassault-avi-results-idUKKCN1012HZ
> 
> 
> ++
> I said that .. is nt it?
> Now you know DM MP was resisiting signing for the sake of differing payments to later dates,,
> 
> From April end onwards this game is ON
> Right when in Jan PM NaMo and Prez Hollande met the timeline was 4 weeks converted to months and from that time onwards its our own side which is dragging it ... Unfortunately BJP twitter announcing PM NaMo and crediting him for rafale only created more issues,,
> 
> Its good that French side is patient enough.. and yes of course in the end its we whose making a mockery of prolonging an impending signature
> ++
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, thats true..
> I am expecting a strong anti Rafale campaign.. I expect Saab and LM and Sputnik - all to go on overdrive mode to discredit the deal.



Brain says it will happen after December only (given the Indo Russian December annual summit )
But Heart Says it will be a bit sooner....

However , now that the deal is linked directly with the French government , its not Dassualt alone reaping the benefits .... but AirBus, Eurocopter , Nexter , Thales and DCNS will be getting a bigger pie together with Dassault.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Lockheed Martin to offer F-35 to India ?*
Published July 23, 2016

SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK






According to a report prepared by Financial Express , after Lockheed Martin failed to create Indian interest in their legacy F-16 fighter jets , is currently preparing to offer its latest 5th generation F-35A to Indian Air force to meet its requirements for 90 combat fighter jets above 36 Rafale fighter jets currently been negotiated with France .

The report also mentions that India has officially turned down ” Make in India ” F-16 offer from Lockheed Martin and is currently going through proposals submitted by Swedish SAAB for their Gripen E and American Boeing’s F-18s combat fighter jets with Transfer of Technology to be made in India .

F-35A reported per unit cost is 98$ million with additional funds required for weapons ,spares and training support . Defence analyst close to idrw.org do not believe Lockheed Martin will offer Transfer of Technology (TOT) nor will agree to Make it in India , most likely it will offer to establish local supply chain in India for its maintenance and components but it is unlikely to see any interest in India’s Defence ministry .

India is already negotiating with Russia for the development of 5t generation FGFA based on Sukhoi’s T-50 design and has committed to contribute 4 $ Billion each in its development with committed orders for 114 units of this Indo-Russia developed 5th generation Heavy Class fighter which will be slotted above current Air superiority fighter jets like Sukhoi-30 MKI .

India also plans to kickstart its own 5th generation multirole fighter jet programme AMCA by the end of this year for which Defence ministry and various Aerospace developmental and production agencies in India are waiting for official clearance to the project from the government with project budget allocation, timelines and collaborations to be cleared soon .

http://idrw.org/source-idrw-news-network/

+++
Comments

The article only describes what was told by me a good time back and reiterated a week plus back

Small correction - Deal offerred was F16-F35 upgradation package
Original F16 route was 160 and 60 F35 which has been now reduced to 90 F16 and 65-67 F35 (75% of F16 fleet)
There was a separate proposal for procuring 65 F35 (4 squadrons) with no TOT for appeasing USA in case we dont buy any american jets and no MII line for them
This order directly competes with 65-100 (not more than 100) PAKFA Stage 1 jets which is being planned for procurement in 2021-26 timeline . That is the back up plan of DM MP for squadron strength issue.
Time and again DM MP has talked about technology transfer, no conditionalities/strings and what really is being offerred other than marketing gimmicks.
Its been said DM MP is not convinced with either of LM, Saab and Boeing offer till date. And all of them keep coming with revised offers to convince him.
The third angle to all this is Russia has requested India to look at Su35 officially in Innoprom 2016 and have suggested a good number for quick induction. With commonality to Super upgrade, the planes will have most of the tech already shared with India. DM MP has yet not even considered the proposal and given it a thought.

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Lockheed Martin to offer F-35 to India ?*
> Published July 23, 2016
> 
> SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to a report prepared by Financial Express , after Lockheed Martin failed to create Indian interest in their legacy F-16 fighter jets , is currently preparing to offer its latest 5th generation F-35A to Indian Air force to meet its requirements for 90 combat fighter jets above 36 Rafale fighter jets currently been negotiated with France .
> 
> The report also mentions that India has officially turned down ” Make in India ” F-16 offer from Lockheed Martin and is currently going through proposals submitted by Swedish SAAB for their Gripen E and American Boeing’s F-18s combat fighter jets with Transfer of Technology to be made in India .
> 
> F-35A reported per unit cost is 98$ million with additional funds required for weapons ,spares and training support . Defence analyst close to idrw.org do not believe Lockheed Martin will offer Transfer of Technology (TOT) nor will agree to Make it in India , most likely it will offer to establish local supply chain in India for its maintenance and components but it is unlikely to see any interest in India’s Defence ministry .
> 
> India is already negotiating with Russia for the development of 5t generation FGFA based on Sukhoi’s T-50 design and has committed to contribute 4 $ Billion each in its development with committed orders for 114 units of this Indo-Russia developed 5th generation Heavy Class fighter which will be slotted above current Air superiority fighter jets like Sukhoi-30 MKI .
> 
> India also plans to kickstart its own 5th generation multirole fighter jet programme AMCA by the end of this year for which Defence ministry and various Aerospace developmental and production agencies in India are waiting for official clearance to the project from the government with project budget allocation, timelines and collaborations to be cleared soon .
> 
> http://idrw.org/source-idrw-news-network/
> 
> +++
> Comments
> 
> The article only describes what was told by me a good time back and reiterated a week plus back
> 
> Small correction - Deal offerred was F16-F35 upgradation package
> Original F16 route was 160 and 60 F35 which has been now reduced to 90 F16 and 65-67 F35 (75% of F16 fleet)
> There was a separate proposal for procuring 65 F35 (4 squadrons) with no TOT for appeasing USA in case we dont buy any american jets and no MII line for them
> This order directly competes with 65-100 (not more than 100) PAKFA Stage 1 jets which is being planned for procurement in 2021-26 timeline . That is the back up plan of DM MP for squadron strength issue.
> Time and again DM MP has talked about technology transfer, no conditionalities/strings and what really is being offerred other than marketing gimmicks.
> Its been said DM MP is not convinced with either of LM, Saab and Boeing offer till date. And all of them keep coming with revised offers to convince him.
> The third angle to all this is Russia has requested India to look at Su35 officially in Innoprom 2016 and have suggested a good number for quick induction. With commonality to Super upgrade, the planes will have most of the tech already shared with India. DM MP has yet not even considered the proposal and given it a thought.



We can only say -- OMFG


----------



## The Eagle

@Oscar @waz @mods & seniors here.

The subjected thread is being derailed/offtopic many times and now most of posts are about Indian procurement. Let this thread be specifically as per subject and @PARIKRAMA and others may post news & updates regarding Indian procurement in specific thread regarding IAF indcutions/plans (new or old) other than Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]. Just my opinion. @PARIKRAMA your words.

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## PARIKRAMA

It will be good if we convert this thread in Rafale and Make in India fighter aircraft thread or
We make a new sticky thread for Make in India fighter jet thread and stick to only Rafale news here only..

I would request the first one as its clear that all news are aimed at the Make in India part which is bifurcated from original MMRCA only..

Would look forward to suggestions on this..


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## Athen

I think you guys should close this thread.. Just waste of bandwidth ... Our DM really sucks.. I expected alot from him.. Now he turned out be wrost in modi cabinet!! All whining...

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## The Eagle

PARIKRAMA said:


> It will be good if we convert this thread in Rafale and Make in India fighter aircraft thread or
> We make a new sticky thread for Make in India fighter jet thread and stick to only Rafale news here only..
> 
> I would request the first one as its clear that all news are aimed at the Make in India part which is bifurcated from original MMRCA only..
> 
> Would look forward to suggestions on this..



I think thread need to be remain as what it is as per subject, no conversion is needed however, a new thread for MMRCA / Make in India to be created so the readers may view and share as per interest of subject whether it is about Dassualt or MMRCA / Make in India / DM.


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## randomradio

The Eagle said:


> @Oscar @waz @mods & seniors here.
> 
> The subjected thread is being derailed/offtopic many times and now most of posts are about Indian procurement. Let this thread be specifically as per subject and @PARIKRAMA and others may post news & updates regarding Indian procurement in specific thread regarding IAF indcutions/plans (new or old) other than Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]. Just my opinion. @PARIKRAMA your words.





PARIKRAMA said:


> It will be good if we convert this thread in Rafale and Make in India fighter aircraft thread or
> We make a new sticky thread for Make in India fighter jet thread and stick to only Rafale news here only..
> 
> I would request the first one as its clear that all news are aimed at the Make in India part which is bifurcated from original MMRCA only..
> 
> Would look forward to suggestions on this..



It is unnecessary right now. Before March 2017, we will know which jets will be part of MII, new threads can be made accordingly. Assume this thread to be a Rafale + MII thread for now because right now, they are all interrelated. It will automatically change in 6 months or so.



Athen said:


> I think you guys should close this thread.. Just waste of bandwidth ... Our DM really sucks.. I expected alot from him.. Now he turned out be wrost in modi cabinet!! All whining...



Our DM has already finished contracts worth billions. How much are you actually expecting in just 1.5 years after he's taken office? He's already done more than what UPA has done in 10 years.

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## BON PLAN

Kishore said:


> French are sucking us high and dry. Just like mirage MLU deal.


In this case why India is always bargaining? Better not to choose Rafale in 2012 (there was a L2), and why not stopping all the process with the end of MMRCA ?

Think about it, and you will have the answer Bro.

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## Athen

randomradio said:


> It is unnecessary right now. Before March 2017, we will know which jets will be part of MII, new threads can be made accordingly. Assume this thread to be a Rafale + MII thread for now because right now, they are all interrelated. It will automatically change in 6 months or so.
> 
> 
> 
> Our DM has already finished contracts worth billions. How much are you actually expecting in just 1.5 years after he's taken office? He's already done more than what UPA has done in 10 years.


sorry..i am a rafale fanboy!!


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## Ankit Kumar 002

http://m.aviationweek.com/awindefense/dassault-struggles-rafale-production-rate

Dassault Struggles With Rafale Production Rate
Aerospace Daily & Defense Report
SAINT-CLOUD, France—More Rafale export contracts are in the offing but are taking time to materialize, causing Dassault Aviation to strive to adjust the fighter’s production ... 

Full article needs a subscription. 

@PARIKRAMA can you manage the full article ?

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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> http://m.aviationweek.com/awindefense/dassault-struggles-rafale-production-rate
> 
> Dassault Struggles With Rafale Production Rate
> Aerospace Daily & Defense Report
> SAINT-CLOUD, France—More Rafale export contracts are in the offing but are taking time to materialize, causing Dassault Aviation to strive to adjust the fighter’s production ...
> 
> Full article needs a subscription.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA can you manage the full article ?



*Dassault Struggles With Rafale Production Rate
Aerospace Daily & Defense Report*
SAINT-CLOUD, France—More Rafale export contracts are in the offing but are taking time to materialize, causing Dassault Aviation to strive to adjust the fighter’s production rate.

When the first two deals were signed with Egypt and Qatar, the airframer had reasonable hope that India would quickly follow. In anticipation, it decided last year to increase the monthly production rate from one to three (Dassault counts 11 work months per year).

“We wanted to fulfill our commitments for those contracts already signed,” CEO Eric Trappier said during a July 21 press conference here. The message to prospective customers was that they could expect a short lead time.

But when the company saw the Indian agreement and a potential fourth one (likely to be the United Arab Emirates) slipping to the right, it slowed down the ramp-up. The production rate is now standing at two on the Bordeaux Mérignac final assembly line. It may decrease, should the Indian arrangement fail to happen soon, Trappier said.

Compounding the difficulty are the deliveries the French government has postponed—the nation’s forces will only receive 26 new fighters from 2014-2019. The ministry of defense was counting on the exportation to compensate. But Egypt’s and Qatar’s Rafales are only partially counterbalancing France’s budget-saving move.

Dassault has planned to deliver six Rafales to its home country this year (four of which were handed over in the first half). All three deliveries scheduled to Egypt this year occurred in the first half.

To mitigate the revised Rafale procurement plan, French defense procurement agency DGA has decided to upgrade 55 Mirage 2000D ground-attack aircraft in service with the French air force. A gun pod and Mica air-to-air missiles (for self-protection purposes) will be added, while the weapon system will be improved. Dassault and MBDA are in charge of the renovation work. So far, they have a firm order for the development phase and the upgrade of the first few aircraft, Trappier said.

He has renewed hope that the tantalizing Indian contract will be inked very soon, with a defense acquisition council having met in June in New Delhi. The offset agreement is to be worth 50% of the deal.

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## randomradio

Athen said:


> sorry..i am a rafale fanboy!!



And he's the best thing that's happened to the Rafale for India. Numbers have gone from 126 to potentially 180 for IAF, and possibly 54-72 for the IN. His work.

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## kaykay

randomradio said:


> And he's the best thing that's happened to the Rafale for India. Numbers have gone from 126 to potentially 180 for IAF, and possibly 54-72 for the IN. His work.


Where? I see only 36 Rafales and thats it.


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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> Compounding the difficulty are the deliveries the French government has postponed—the nation’s forces will only receive 26 new fighters from 2014-2019. The ministry of defense was counting on the exportation to compensate. But Egypt’s and Qatar’s Rafales are only partially counterbalancing France’s budget-saving move.



Doesn't make sense. 2014-19 at 11 per year is 66 jets. France ordered 26. Egypt ordered 24+12. Qatar ordered 24. That's 74+12. That's far more than 66 jets.

UAE has only moved their decision by a couple of years. That's compensated with the IAF's order for 36 and IN's order for 18. The French 5th tranche of 45 and UAE's order of 60 will easily make up for the uncertainty.

That's 213 jets pending, not counting the French order for 26 and the 6 already delivered to Egypt.

The 26 aircraft for France are 11+8+6+1. So after this year only 1 aircraft will be pending for the French right up to 2019. So France won't be taking any deliveries for 2 years. And the Dassault line will have limited delivery next year because of the expansion work.

And this is also not counting any options from current orders or future orders. Apart from Egypt, Qatar, India and UAE, 5 other countries are interested in the Rafale.



> All three deliveries scheduled to Egypt this year occurred in the first half.



Doesn't make sense. The Egyptian orders were from last year, when France took only 8 aircraft. The deliveries for this year are yet to happen.



kaykay said:


> Where? I see only 36 Rafales and thats it.



IN will mostly be buying 18 jets.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio said:


> Doesn't make sense. 2014-19 at 11 per year is 66 jets. France ordered 26. Egypt ordered 24+12. Qatar ordered 24. That's 74+12. That's far more than 66 jets.


The problem is that Tappier have anticipated the Indian order and decided a production rate of 3/month. Now the delay drive the rate to 2/month and the question is: "do we need to come back to 1/month?"

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> The problem is that Tappier have anticipated the Indian order and decided a production rate of 3/month. Now the delay drive the rate to 2/month and the question is: "do we need to come back to 1/month?"



His apprehensions won't be an issue pretty soon. It's most likely only to put pressure on Parrikar.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> Doesn't make sense. 2014-19 at 11 per year is 66 jets. France ordered 26. Egypt ordered 24+12. Qatar ordered 24. That's 74+12. That's far more than 66 jets.
> 
> UAE has only moved their decision by a couple of years. That's compensated with the IAF's order for 36 and IN's order for 18. The French 5th tranche of 45 and UAE's order of 60 will easily make up for the uncertainty.
> 
> That's 213 jets pending, not counting the French order for 26 and the 6 already delivered to Egypt.
> 
> The 26 aircraft for France are 11+8+6+1. So after this year only 1 aircraft will be pending for the French right up to 2019. So France won't be taking any deliveries for 2 years. And the Dassault line will have limited delivery next year because of the expansion work.
> 
> And this is also not counting any options from current orders or future orders. Apart from Egypt, Qatar, India and UAE, 5 other countries are interested in the Rafale.
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't make sense. The Egyptian orders were from last year, when France took only 8 aircraft. The deliveries for this year are yet to happen.
> 
> 
> 
> IN will mostly be buying 18 jets.




The report has one small error. The computation he has based on 66 is actually 76 as of 30.06.2016 and is taken from the press release






As you see break up is
exports - 42 -( Egypt 18+ Qatar 24)
domestic - 34
About Export orders





About domestic confirmation was given in the same analysis





So if i consider the follow on potential orders then
Egypt 12
Qatar 12
-----------------
Thats 24

Indian order
IAF -36
IN - 18 (later perhaps)
-------------------
Thats 54

So all in all 42+34+24+54 = 154

Next Tranche FrAF - 45
UAE potential order - 60
--------------------------------------------
Thats 105

So Order Back log can be 259

In case UAE order does not happen there is a high possibility that IN order for rest 36 will go to Merignac line so

Lower end estimate is 235
Upper End estimate - 295 (including UAE order also)


Even with 2 jets a month for sake of understanding its just
30.06.2016-31.12.2016 - 11
2017 - 22
2018- 22
2019 -22
--------------------------
Thats 77 upto 2019 end versus 76 orders pending based on domestic and exports as per presentation
One positive thing is Egypt will announce follow on within next 15 months
Qatar also before 2019 end

That leaves a good number of years to secure the rest.

Even without UAE the order book still looks pretty good bcz Indian order of just 36+ 24 Follow on of Egypt and Qatar keeps the Merignac line running for 60/22 = 2 years and 9 months.

@Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @randomradio @Taygibay

I forgot to add







Roughly google translate...(feel free to provide better interpretation)

Strategy

sell the Rafale to India and *continue efforts to other prospects,*


FALCON sell the entire range because , beyond the issue of competitiveness , we believe in the business aviation market
ensure the development of FALCON 5X and prepare , despite the difficult context, the launch of a new FALCON program


get that France is positioned more precisely (preparation of Military Planning Act 2020 to 2025 ) on the future of the Rafale and drones


be at the forefront of technology including the mastery of suborbital flight and remain a leading player of pyrotechnics
The first point is clear cut strategy pointing to MII as well as Indian Navy order

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> The report has one small error. The computation he has based on 66 is actually 76 as of 30.06.2016 and is taken from the press release
> View attachment 320000
> 
> 
> As you see break up is
> exports - 42 -( Egypt 18+ Qatar 24)
> domestic - 34
> About Export orders
> View attachment 320002
> 
> 
> About domestic confirmation was given in the same analysis
> View attachment 320001
> 
> 
> So if i consider the follow on potential orders then
> Egypt 12
> Qatar 12
> -----------------
> Thats 24
> 
> Indian order
> IAF -36
> IN - 18 (later perhaps)
> -------------------
> Thats 54
> 
> So all in all 42+34+24+54 = 154
> 
> Next Tranche FrAF - 45
> UAE potential order - 60
> --------------------------------------------
> Thats 105
> 
> So Order Back log can be 259
> 
> In case UAE order does not happen there is a high possibility that IN order for rest 36 will go to Merignac line so
> 
> Lower end estimate is 235
> Upper End estimate - 295 (including UAE order also)
> 
> 
> Even with 2 jets a month for sake of understanding its just
> 30.06.2016-31.12.2016 - 11
> 2017 - 22
> 2018- 22
> 2019 -22
> --------------------------
> Thats 77 upto 2019 end versus 76 orders pending based on domestic and exports as per presentation
> One positive thing is Egypt will announce follow on within next 15 months
> Qatar also before 2019 end
> 
> That leaves a good number of years to secure the rest.
> 
> Even without UAE the order book still looks pretty good bcz Indian order of just 36+ 24 Follow on of Egypt and Qatar keeps the Merignac line running for 60/22 = 2 years and 9 months.
> 
> @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @randomradio @Taygibay



66 is the number of jets manufactured from 2014-19, without changes in production because Dassault will run the line based on an order for 11 jets a year. Out of that order for 66, France had divided that into 26 for themselves and 40 for export. That number was met with Qatar and Egypt.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> 66 is the number of jets manufactured from 2014-19, without changes in production because Dassault will run the line based on an order for 11 jets a year. Out of that order for 66, France had divided that into 26 for themselves and 40 for export. That number was met with Qatar and Egypt.


Yes i realised it now .. but good, i considered based on 22/year .. still I feel even without French 5th tranche and UAE order they are pretty much booked with just Indian order of 36 and follow on orders of Egypt+Qatar till 2021-22 types.


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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> Yes i realised it now .. but good, i considered based on 22/year .. still I feel even without French 5th tranche and UAE order they are pretty much booked with just Indian order of 36 and follow on orders of Egypt+Qatar till 2021-22 types.



That was my point all along. Trappier is making political noise. They make long term decisions, they don't make decisions based on a few months worth of delays. If they don't keep production numbers high, they will only get swamped with orders later on and won't be able to take up new orders until the previous ones are met. That's not a good place to be.

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## Athen

randomradio said:


> And he's the best thing that's happened to the Rafale for India. Numbers have gone from 126 to potentially 180 for IAF, and possibly 54-72 for the IN. His work.


source??


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## [Bregs]

randomradio said:


> And he's the best thing that's happened to the Rafale for India. Numbers have gone from 126 to potentially 180 for IAF, and possibly 54-72 for the IN. His work.




are bhai pehle 36 ki deal ho jaye fir 180 ke baare main sochna

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## randomradio

Athen said:


> source??



Parrikar himself, military sources and journos from other forums for now.



[Bregs] said:


> are bhai pehle 36 ki deal ho jaye fir 180 ke baare main sochna



It's cascading. 36 Rafales will open up MII. MII opens up 90. And you know IAF won't stop at just 90. Then Parrikar has asked IN to make a study for 54 jets. It is possible that 18 will be flyaway from France for use on Vikrant. And you know IN will also not stop at just 18.

So if 36 jets are bought, that number will balloon to 200-300 between IAF and IN.

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## [Bregs]

*


randomradio said:



Parrikar himself, military sources and journos from other forums for now.



It's cascading. 36 Rafales will open up MII. MII opens up 90. And you know IAF won't stop at just 90.

Click to expand...

*


randomradio said:


> Then Parrikar has asked IN to make a study for 54 jets. It is possible that 18 will be flyaway from France for use on Vikrant. And you know IN will also not stop at just 18.
> 
> So if 36 jets are bought, that number will balloon to 200-300 between IAF and IN.



what you are saying is rational thought but when have IAF and defence minstry followed deals rationally with speed ?

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## randomradio

[Bregs] said:


> what you are saying is rational thought but when have IAF and defence minstry followed deals rationally with speed ?



Once MII program starts, IAF will decide the numbers, not MoD. MoD will step in only if overall number of jets have to be cut due to budget issues, and this will apply to all jets, not just Rafale.

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## airmarshal

Is India any closer to the deal than the last time I visited this thread couple of months ago?

Qatar has got them. Egypt has got them. All started long after India. Now dont tell me India has democracy and others have not!


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## Athen

Athen said:


> source??





airmarshal said:


> Is India any closer to the deal than the last time I visited this thread couple of months ago?
> 
> Qatar has got them. Egypt has got them. All started long after India. Now dont tell me India has democracy and others have not!


nope...


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## PARIKRAMA



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## airmarshal

Athen said:


> nope...



Dont think I m Pakistani and I m trying to joke about it or make fun of you but this is becoming a joke.


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## randomradio

airmarshal said:


> Dont think I m Pakistani and I m trying to joke about it or make fun of you but this is becoming a joke.



I actually don't get this argument. Bureaucracy was worse in the past and IAF still had the 4th largest air force.

IAF procurement process may look like a joke because they are also for very large numbers. We are not buying one or two squadrons, we are buying hundreds of jets with their entire support ecosystem. Every million saved on an aircraft could mean savings of $200-300M for the fleet. Parrikar has managed to save the exchequer $25M for each jet with more advanced technology compared to MMRCA on the unit price alone. That's savings worth $5B for the fleet. That saved $5B will be spent on other helicopters and aircraft. Overall savings will be 30% LCC compared to MMRCA, that's savings of $20B in LCC for the fleet. And he's done all of this in just 1 year. You think this is not worth the effort?

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> Doesn't make sense. The Egyptian orders were from last year, when France took only 8 aircraft. The deliveries for this year are yet to happen.


3 more planes were delivered to Egypt early this year. Total so far : 6 delivered for Egypt.

And the 12 on option for Egypt are on bargaining. DA hope it will be inked this year.

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## Abingdonboy

airmarshal said:


> Is India any closer to the deal than the last time I visited this thread couple of months ago?
> 
> Qatar has got them. Egypt has got them. All started long after India. Now dont tell me India has democracy and others have not!


Democracy does not have anything to do with it. The Indian deal is FAR larger and FAR more complex than any other Rafale sale to any other customer. Qatar and Egypt are ordering limited numbers of Rafales off the shelf, this is an easy process. India is in talks to buy >126 Rafales with a Rafale production line being set up in India, no other customer has faced even 10% of the kind of complexity India and France are working out.

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## Taygibay

Agreed on the production line thing, Abingdon my friend but not on :


Abingdonboy said:


> Qatar and Egypt are ordering limited numbers of Rafales off the shelf, this is an easy process.



Qatar got modifications as the HMCS but also went for a formation sqdn in France
with dual piloting & maintenance schooling that may stay opened past reception of
those fighters.
The difference is mostly that they were decided on the buy and free of politics interfering.

Sorry to say, Tay.

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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> Agreed on the production line thing, Abingdon my friend but not on :
> 
> 
> Qatar got modifications as the HMCS but also went for a formation sqdn in France
> with dual piloting & maintenance schooling that may stay opened past reception of
> those fighters.
> The difference is mostly that they were decided on the buy and free of politics interfering.
> 
> Sorry to say, Tay.


I think it is more often the case that smaller nations are more responsive and agile in their decsion making, larger nations tend to have troublesome and bloated bureaucracies with more complex poltical and strategic considerations.

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## [Bregs]

Abingdonboy said:


> I think it is more often the case that smaller nations are more responsive and agile in their decsion making, larger nations tend to have troublesome and bloated bureaucracies with more complex poltical and strategic considerations.



Any news regarding Rafale deal bro ?

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## Abingdonboy

[Bregs] said:


> Any news regarding Rafale deal bro ?


Nothing from my end, @PARIKRAMA is the oracle on these matters though.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

_Parrikar has struck again:_
*Indian defence ministry scraps MRTT tender for second time*
*Rahul Bedi, New Delhi* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
26 July 2016

Airbus Defence and Space (DS) has said India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) terminated in late June the six-year-old USD2 billion tender for six multi-role tanker transport (MRTT) aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF), for which the company's A330 MRTT had been shortlisted.

"We have been notified by the MoD of the withdrawal of the request for proposals (RfP), but we do not see this as the end of the road for the A330 MRTT campaign in India," an Airbus official told _IHS Jane's_ on 26 July, adding that the aerospace company "will engage with the Indian government in finding a way to bring the A330 MRTT's capabilities to the IAF".

http://www.janes.com/article/62543/...scraps-mrtt-tender-for-second-time?from_rss=1

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> _Parrikar has struck again:_
> *Indian defence ministry scraps MRTT tender for second time*
> *Rahul Bedi, New Delhi* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 26 July 2016
> 
> Airbus Defence and Space (DS) has said India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) terminated in late June the six-year-old USD2 billion tender for six multi-role tanker transport (MRTT) aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF), for which the company's A330 MRTT had been shortlisted.
> 
> "We have been notified by the MoD of the withdrawal of the request for proposals (RfP), but we do not see this as the end of the road for the A330 MRTT campaign in India," an Airbus official told _IHS Jane's_ on 26 July, adding that the aerospace company "will engage with the Indian government in finding a way to bring the A330 MRTT's capabilities to the IAF".
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/62543/...scraps-mrtt-tender-for-second-time?from_rss=1



I was wondering why this had not happened yet. They can replace it with a new GTG deal for tankers and AWACS-India platforms now.

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## sathya

bigger & better deal..

lot and lots of negotiations though


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## itachii

sathya said:


> bigger & better deal..
> 
> lot and lots of negotiations though



any inside Information or just speculation ?


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## kaykay

drama continues.....Haha

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## sathya

itachii said:


> any inside Information or just speculation ?




Just speculation only, previous deals were all put up by UPA,

When even the near complete MMRCA were so modified and negotiated before the DPP by parrikar , MRTT 100% won't escape the current DPP

They ll deal for higher numbers , will wait strategic timing like NSG , negotiate for industry development .. 

These have become a routine now.

Now that all the procedures and protocols put forward, we can see may be little faster deals .

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## Abingdonboy

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> _Parrikar has struck again:_
> *Indian defence ministry scraps MRTT tender for second time*
> *Rahul Bedi, New Delhi* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 26 July 2016
> 
> Airbus Defence and Space (DS) has said India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) terminated in late June the six-year-old USD2 billion tender for six multi-role tanker transport (MRTT) aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF), for which the company's A330 MRTT had been shortlisted.
> 
> "We have been notified by the MoD of the withdrawal of the request for proposals (RfP), but we do not see this as the end of the road for the A330 MRTT campaign in India," an Airbus official told _IHS Jane's_ on 26 July, adding that the aerospace company "will engage with the Indian government in finding a way to bring the A330 MRTT's capabilities to the IAF".
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/62543/...scraps-mrtt-tender-for-second-time?from_rss=1





randomradio said:


> I was wondering why this had not happened yet. They can replace it with a new GTG deal for tankers and AWACS-India platforms now.



Funnily enough, I was wondering to myself what exactly the MoD was playing at wrt to the MRTT deal. This is an annoying and yet all to predictable setback. MP is beset by the same tendancies as his predeccesor wherein he has a allowed an entirely irrelevent complaint from literally DECADES ago to scupper an excellent purchase.


HOWEVER, I think there is some light at the end of this tunnel. If one is watching these matters from a broader perspective it is clear that Airbus Military is getting more than a toehold in the Indian market these days and MII coupled with DPP-2016 may see Airbus/France as the greatest beneficary. Look at the C-295 offer (Tata JV), H225M/Panther offers (Mahindra JV), AWACS (INDIA) project of DRDO (A330 has been selected as the platform) as well as the C-295 for DRDO's MPA project (for the Indian Coast Guard and Navy). There is certainly scope for the A330 MRTT to enter into IAF service but, alas, this is India so it will be later than intended. I'm aware that Airbus is stepping up outsourcing efforts to India so hopefully the next MRTT bid will see more Indian content and pursued through the "Make In India" policy AND will incorporate a greater scope considering the IN has an outstanding requirement for 3-6 platforms of its own (the latter point is more of a fantasy considering pooled purchases are almost unheard of between the services). 


I wonder how my friend @PARIKRAMA sees these things.

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## jha

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> _Parrikar has struck again:_
> *Indian defence ministry scraps MRTT tender for second time*
> *Rahul Bedi, New Delhi* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
> 26 July 2016
> 
> Airbus Defence and Space (DS) has said India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) terminated in late June the six-year-old USD2 billion tender for six multi-role tanker transport (MRTT) aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF), for which the company's A330 MRTT had been shortlisted.
> 
> "We have been notified by the MoD of the withdrawal of the request for proposals (RfP), but we do not see this as the end of the road for the A330 MRTT campaign in India," an Airbus official told _IHS Jane's_ on 26 July, adding that the aerospace company "will engage with the Indian government in finding a way to bring the A330 MRTT's capabilities to the IAF".
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/62543/...scraps-mrtt-tender-for-second-time?from_rss=1



Good riddance... Was stuck for a long time.


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## [Bregs]

arey bhai parikarma any news on this tortoise deal of rafale for 36 Nos ???

@PARIKRAMA

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> Funnily enough, I was wondering to myself what exactly the MoD was playing at wrt to the MRTT deal. This is an annoying and yet all to predictable setback. MP is beset by the same tendancies as his predeccesor wherein he has a allowed an entirely irrelevent complaint from literally DECADES ago to scupper an excellent purchase.
> 
> 
> HOWEVER, I think there is some light at the end of this tunnel. If one is watching these matters from a broader perspective it is clear that Airbus Military is getting more than a toehold in the Indian market these days and MII coupled with DPP-2016 may see Airbus/France as the greatest beneficary. Look at the C-295 offer (Tata JV), H225M/Panther offers (Mahindra JV), AWACS (INDIA) project of DRDO (A330 has been selected as the platform) as well as the C-295 for DRDO's MPA project (for the Indian Coast Guard and Navy). There is certainly scope for the A330 MRTT to enter into IAF service but, alas, this is India so it will be later than intended. I'm aware that Airbus is stepping up outsourcing efforts to India so hopefully the next MRTT bid will see more Indian content and pursued through the "Make In India" policy AND will incorporate a greater scope considering the IN has an outstanding requirement for 3-6 platforms of its own (the latter point is more of a fantasy considering pooled purchases are almost unheard of between the services).
> 
> 
> I wonder how my friend @PARIKRAMA sees these things.


Its beyond the purview of this thread but still i am taking the liberty to discuss bcz Pic has pointed a good point. Our DM Mp seems to be scrap savvy.

The buzz is that there will be a combined procurement of 6+6 = 12 and 12 more options for a new tender.
The tender usage will be

MRTT
Hosting Phalcon Awacs
Contenders are

IL76/78MKI
A330 MRTT
Both of these are looked at with special focus on

Operational uptime/ Availability rate
Localisation of Spares
Meeting DPP 2016 under which offsets needs to be defined where they will invest
Challenge seen is

Wishing for commonality
Cheaper maintenance
Spare localisation and availability
Better bargaining power and reduced costs upfront and LCC via spare localisations like points
Competition would be tough surely but for this combined need will make both bid and we get a situation away from single bid

Talk about Indians being genius..  we find solutions to all complex problems with cunning street smart ways

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Hosting Phalcon Awacs


Before I comment on the rest of your post bro can you clarify whether this would be for hosting the IAI EL/W-2090 PHALCON as part of a follow-on off the shelf procurement for the IAF or whether you mean for hosting the DRDO's AWACS (INDIA)?

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## PARIKRAMA

[Bregs] said:


> arey bhai parikarma any news on this tortoise deal of rafale for 36 Nos ???
> 
> @PARIKRAMA



DM MP is sending note to CCS.. Finally..
Countdown max 2 months before MP sends note and CCS approval comes out. French side would be here within next 2 months to formally sign..

It would be over soon..



Abingdonboy said:


> Before I comment on the rest of your post bro can you clarify whether this would be for hosting the IAI EL/W-2090 PHALCON as part of a follow-on off the shelf procurement for the IAF or whether you mean for hosting the DRDO's AWACS (INDIA)?



First lot will sport Phalcons EL/W 2090 and second lot under follow on may be having DRDO AWACS (if its ready).

Most probably the aircraft chosen will test DRDO home grown AWACS.

Bets are hedged on Airbus but Russian side is offering ILs damn cheap in throwaway prices actually. But operational availability is a challenge with LCC cost. so a babu has suggested this unique jugaad..

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Its beyond the purview of this thread but still i am taking the liberty to discuss bcz Pic has pointed a good point. Our DM Mp seems to be scrap savvy.
> 
> The buzz is that there will be a combined procurement of 6+6 = 12 outright purchases and 12 more options for a new tender.
> The tender usage will be
> 
> MRTT
> Hosting Phalcon Awacs
> Contenders are
> 
> IL76/78MKI
> A330 MRTT
> Both of these are looked at with special focus on
> 
> Operational uptime/ Availability rate
> Localisation of Spares
> Meeting DPP 2016 under which offsets needs to be defined where they will invest
> Challenge seen is
> 
> Wishing for commonality
> Cheaper maintenance
> Spare localisation and availability
> Better bargaining power and reduced costs upfront and LCC via spare localisations like points
> Competition would be tough surely but for this combined need will make both bid and we get a situation away from single bid
> 
> Talk about Indians being genius..  we find solutions to all complex problems with cunning street smart ways





PARIKRAMA said:


> *First lot will sport Phalcons EL/W 2090* and second lot under follow on may be having DRDO AWACS (if its ready).
> 
> Most probably the aircraft chosen will test DRDO home grown AWACS.
> 
> Bets are hedged on Airbus but Russian side is offering ILs damn cheap in throwaway prices actually. But operational availability is a challenge with LCC cost. so a babu has suggested this unique jugaad..



Hmmm, that's interesting. As it stands the IAF has 3 A-50EI AWACS supporting the EL/W-2090 and a further 2 are on order to take the total to 5 EL/W-2090 PHALCONs on the A-50 platform. So if the IAF is looking to purchase a further batch of EL/W-2090 they will (likely) be on an entirely new platform (A330)? And this will have commonality with the CABS DRDO's AWACS (INDIA) for which the A330 has already been selected (and the future MRTT fleet):













_
The Indian MoD today sanctioned $818 million (Rs 5113 crore) for the country’s indigenous AWACS programme, with a go-ahead to order two modified Airbus A330 widebody jets as the platform. Funds for four additional jets for a total of six will come through later. 
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/03/a330-for-indian-awacs-tanker-deal-still.html
_

Hmmm, this makes too much sense, no Indian could have thought this up 

This is only what I have been suggesting for the past few years, I was in fact suggesting that any follow on units beyond the 3 A-50 PHALCONs already in service should be based on the A330 


Anyway, on the MRTT/new situation with the emphasis on LCC/commonality/maintainability the Airbus proposal is surely going to utterly demolish any offer the Russians can make (no matter how cheap they offer their products)?

1) LCC- the A330 MRTT has now been selected for the IAF's AAR requirement TWICE (both times beating the IL-78MKI and the second time on LCC). The efficency of the A330 over the IL-78 is well understood.
2) Commonality- the CABS DRDO AWACS (INDIA) will be using the A330 from 2020 onwards, the present IL-76/78 fleet will begin being phased out from 2030.
3) Maintainability- Airbus is a global OEM with MASSIVE support infrastructure that only Boeing could rival. Airbus has a signifcant (and increasing) presence in the Indian civil market (huge (*historic*) orders from IndiGo and SpiceJet) and they are going to be setting up MRO facilities in India to support Indian and regional Airbus fleets. The issues the IAF has faced with their IL-76s is well known and Ilyushin will remain a niche OEM will almost no support base outside of the former Eastern bloc, no ammount of polishing (limited avionic/engine upgrades) will change this t*rd. Despite 3+ decades of operations in the Indian market Ilyushin has barely invested in localised support infrastructure for India and I don't see them looking to do so for the future.

If this was a Boeing vs Airbus competition I would be genuinly excited as it could lead to great benefits for the Indian Mil and local industry (as Boeing and Airbus are already engaged in quite the slug match to capture greater market share in the rapidly expanding civil market and are investing heavily). As it stands Airbus are surely going to walk over the Russians, it's not even going to be a contest. There is just no way the Russians can compete with a global giant like Airbus that is actively expanding its penetration into the Indian market.

Furthermore, which side is taking Make In India more seriously; France or Russia? Again there is simply no contest.

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## Abingdonboy

I know this thread has been posted in the main defence section but it is worth discussing here:

https://defence.pk/threads/boeing-to-clarify-f-a-18-make-in-india-offer.441237/

@PARIKRAMA @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Taygibay @Stephen Cohen @anant_s @randomradio @Vergennes @Armani thoughts?

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## SQ8

*Gentlemen.*
*
PLEASE KEEP THE DISCUSSION TO THE RAFALE!*

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## Taygibay

In India, Oscar, if I may add! The discussion on the Rafale for India.

 If it was a thread on the Rafale period, it would be much less noisy?


So early September for that contract signing you said, Parik my friend.
So converted in IST say, Christmas gift / New Year bonus? 

 Tay.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/758269488508706818

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/758376609439223808Too many beauties here....

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> Funnily enough, I was wondering to myself what exactly the MoD was playing at wrt to the MRTT deal. This is an annoying and yet all to predictable setback. MP is beset by the same tendancies as his predeccesor wherein he has a allowed an entirely irrelevent complaint from literally DECADES ago to scupper an excellent purchase.
> 
> 
> HOWEVER, I think there is some light at the end of this tunnel. If one is watching these matters from a broader perspective it is clear that Airbus Military is getting more than a toehold in the Indian market these days and MII coupled with DPP-2016 may see Airbus/France as the greatest beneficary. Look at the C-295 offer (Tata JV), H225M/Panther offers (Mahindra JV), AWACS (INDIA) project of DRDO (A330 has been selected as the platform) as well as the C-295 for DRDO's MPA project (for the Indian Coast Guard and Navy). There is certainly scope for the A330 MRTT to enter into IAF service but, alas, this is India so it will be later than intended. I'm aware that Airbus is stepping up outsourcing efforts to India so hopefully the next MRTT bid will see more Indian content and pursued through the "Make In India" policy AND will incorporate a greater scope considering the IN has an outstanding requirement for 3-6 platforms of its own (the latter point is more of a fantasy considering pooled purchases are almost unheard of between the services).
> 
> 
> I wonder how my friend @PARIKRAMA sees these things.



It is a minor setback. The major setback happened when it was canceled the first time. Now, it may signal the entry of Airbus as a major manufacturer in India.

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## nang2

Taygibay said:


> In India, Oscar, if I may add! The discussion on the Rafale for India.
> 
> If it was a thread on the Rafale period, it would be much less noisy?
> 
> 
> So early September for that contract signing you said, Parik my friend.
> So converted in IST say, Christmas gift / New Year bonus?
> 
> Tay.



Still, it would be much less noisy. Basically, it is just filled with "Are we there yet? Nope". Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## Param

The monsoon session of Parliament is in progress.With the way Indian Politics run,where each and every decision of ruling government is criticized and questioned by opposition,even if any govt has made up its mind on Rafale deal,it will be announced only after this session of Parliament ends.Besides,MP may want to hear out what best visiting US delegation has to offer in terms of technology transfer and MII.

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## Stephen Cohen

@PARIKRAMA 

*Dassault Expects Indian Rafale Deal to Boost Its Bottomline For 2016

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/16...to_Boost_Its_Bottomline_For_2016#.V5sL_9J97IU*
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Safran to triple Rafale's M88 engine production*

To meet the export orders bagged by Dassault's Rafale fighter, Safran Aircraft Engines (formerly Snecma) is tripling its M88 turbofan engine production.

http://www.aviationanalysis.net/2016/07/safran-to-triple-rafale-m88-engine-production.html

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## Taygibay

Stephen Cohen said:


> http://www.aviationanalysis.net/2016/07/safran-to-triple-rafale-m88-engine-production.html



Shoddy reporting stating untruths again :

"Two of these 16,860 lb max thrust engines power the Rafale giving
unrivaled power-to-weight ratio and superior maneuverability."​
That's simply wrong! The Rafale has an excellent thrust to weight ratio
but MiG 29MM, SU late 27/35, some F-15s, F-22 and Eurofighter have more.
Now, the maneuverability is superior, however that also comes from FCS and aerodynamics.

These journos write waxing heavy with a lyrical heart but facts are not their forte.

Tsssk, Tay.

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## Stephen Cohen

Taygibay said:


> Shoddy reporting stating untruths again :
> 
> "Two of these 16,860 lb max thrust engines power the Rafale giving unrivaled power-to-weight ratio and superior maneuverability."
> 
> That's simply wrong! The Rafale has an excellent thrust to weight ratio
> but MiG 29MM, SU late 27/35, some F-15s, F-22 and Eurofighter have more.
> 
> These journos write waxing heavy with a lyrical heart but facts are not their forte.
> 
> Tsssk, Tay.



I just posted it in the context of India's Rafale deal 

The article mentions India ; so I posted it


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## Taygibay

Stephen Cohen said:


> The article mentions India ; so I posted it



That's where I beg to differ, Stephen.
All sources are not equal. Nor worthy even.

It is in _critique des sources_ that history made its best gains and
you just can't read everything you find, the day isn't long enough.

When you find such errors, _esp._ in a mere prod increase news,
be very wary and ideally, find a better outlet reporting the same.

Our human minds are incredible link finding-establishing machines,
granted but please cut yours some slack and only treat valid infos?

To paraphrase that piece, I try to maintain "unrivaled" data to noise ratio.
It combats low-clock speed in the processor and saves major time!

Just sayin', have a great day, Tay.

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## Stephen Cohen

Taygibay said:


> That's where I beg to differ, Stephen.
> All sources are not equal. Nor worthy even.
> 
> It is in critique des sources that history made its best gains and
> you just can't read everything you find, the day isn't long enough.
> 
> When you find such errors, _esp._ in a mere prod increase news,
> be very wary and ideally, find a better outlet reporting the same.
> 
> Our human minds are incredible link finding-establishing machines,
> granted but please cut yours some slack and only treat valid infos?
> 
> To paraphrase that piece, I try to maintain "unrivaled" data to noise ratio.
> It combats low-clock speed in the processor and saves major time!
> 
> Just sayin', have a great day, Tay.



We Indians just look for GOOD news on Rafale and post it when we find it

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## Taygibay

Stephen Cohen said:


> We Indians just look for GOOD news on Rafale and post it when we find it



Yeah! Honestly, it's noticeable ... but still not tops? 

Think about it, no hurry and read you soon, Tay.


P.S. Beware that _look for Good news_ turns into _look for any Good news_ &
then turns to _look for any news_ is what I meant above. Enthusiasm, you know?​

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## dani958

*France Imposes New Conditions on Rafale Deal With India*







NEW DELHI — France has quietly insisted that an $8.9 billion government-to-government (G2G) deal with India be signed before a 50 percent offset deal for Rafale fighters is finalized, according to a French Embassy source in India.

“We have concluded multiple discussions with state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and other agencies to execute 30 percent offsets in India’s ongoing and futuristic military aerospace programs, but no [offset] deal will be finalized until the final Rafale contract is signed,” said the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

As part of the Rafale deal, France has made a 30 percent offset commitment for military aerospace research and development programs and a 20 percent offset commitment for making components for Rafale fighters with domestic firms in India.

French defense companies Safran, Thales, MBDA and Dassault have also committed to proving stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles technologies and materials for electronics to DRDO and domestic defense companies.

“We simply cannot make [Rafale] negotiations public”, said an Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) procurement official, who also spoke on condition of anonymity.

As part of G2G discussions, France has also agreed to kick-start the unsuccessful Kaveri gas turbine jet engine for the homemade light combat aircraft Tejas.

At present, the Kaveri engine lacks sufficient power thrust, efficiency and dependability.

An upgraded Kaveri engine with 90 kN thrust can be developed in two years’ time with French cooperation, according to the French Embassy source.

Currently the Tejas is powered by a General Electric F404 engine.

“We have detailed discussions with the French teams to revive [the] Kaveri engine project and it is now for MoD to take a final call,” according to a senior DRDO scientist, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Meanwhile, the MoD is yet to respond to the Indian Ministry of Law and Justice’s findings on the Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) on the Rafale deal, the MoD defense procurement official said.

Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar had informed the parliament May 3 that the federal ministry had reviewed the IGA and that the findings would be taken into account when finalizing the deal.

And prior to that, Dassault chairman Eric Trappier said in an April 13 radio report that he expected a contract could be signed “in the next few days,” adding: “I have high hopes this contract could be signed fairly quickly.”

The MoD procurement official said that no negotiations on the Rafale deal between France and India have taken place in more than six weeks, and the next meeting is yet to be scheduled.

In addition to 36 Rafale fighters, India is also buying Mica air-to-air missiles, Scalp air-to-ground missiles, Meteor beyond-visual-range missiles and precision-guided munitions at a cost of $1 billion for immediate requirements, and India is expected to order five years’ maintenance and engineering support at a cost of $500 million.

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## fitpOsitive

As some people rightly say : War and Bureaucracy are curse upon nations.

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## PARIKRAMA

All Rafale news should go to sticky thread

Request you all members to post in the sticky

@waz @WAJsal @WebMaster 

Pls merge this thread with sticky Rafale thread.

Regards,

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## Johny D

fitpOsitive said:


> As some people rightly say : War and Bureaucracy are curse upon nations.


And Indian Bureaucracy sucks the blood even out of a dead man!


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## Zain Malik

That will be deadlock at the end....!!


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## Vergennes

I have seen 'Refael','Rafael' but 'refal' is a first to me.

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## Blue Marlin

Vergennes said:


> I have seen 'Refael','Rafael' but 'refal' is a first to me.


i have been watching this guy for some time now.......... he cant spell. and i though i was bad.
this article is old anyway

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## John Reese

Blue Marlin said:


> i have been watching this guy for some time now.......... he cant spell. and i though i was bad.
> this article is old anyway



He is a false flag


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## untitled

Vergennes said:


> I have seen 'Refael','Rafael' but 'refal' is a first to me.


Must have confused it with the French company Tefal
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefal

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## proud indian94

*Arms dealer connection holds up the Rafale deal*
By Pradip R Sagar

Published: 31st Jul 2016 07:49:42 AM

NEW DELHI: Having learnt from UPA’s follies in defence deals, which marred its image due to bribery scandals, the BJP-led NDA government is taking care before inking its first major acquisition deal to procure 36 Rafale warplanes with France.








Sanjay Bhandari
A highly-placed source said that the Ministry of Defence before going ahead with the much-awaited deal, is seeking a ‘no-objection’ from the investigating agencies probing arms lobbyist Sanjay Bhandari, whose name had figured in various defence deals during UPA government.


A top official claimed that during a series of raids at Bhandari’s office and residential premises in May, Income Tax and Enforcement Directorate investigators had seized several documents related to defence deals, including Mirage-2000 upgrade with French companies Dassault and Thales.

Dassault Aviation is the manufacturer of Rafale fighter jets. Leads generated from raids at Sanjay Bhandari’s premises gave key inputs on other lobbyists, who are now being scanned for swinging defence deals.

“We are simply verifying with the investigating agencies whether they have found any linkages of Bhandari with French firm manufacturing Rafale jets,” said a top source. Defence sources are apprehensive about Bhandari’s deep-rooted links with French defence firms.

It is learnt that investigating agencies are looking into Bhandari role in the Ministry of Defence’s (MoD) Rs 10,947 crore project, finalised in 2011-12 for an upgrade of 51 Mirage-2000s with the help of French companies Dassault Aviation and Thales (weapons systems integrator). The CAG has criticised the high cost of upgrade the project.

Ministry officials involved in the acquisition process are also wary on going ahead with the deal until clearance from the all sections is availed. For now, price is not the only issue, which is delaying the much -hyped fighter jet deal.

“We have more or less agreed to the price. Such due diligence is required before finalising such a project,” said an MoD official.

Earlier, both sides were working on the price as India is targeting between `65,000-68,000 crore (8 billion Euros) for 36 Rafale fighter jets. However, on the other side, Dassault has quoted a whopping figure of nearly `90,000 crore (12 billion euros) for aircraft fitted with high-end weapons and radar systems.

In the absence of a mutually agreed price, the deal could not be inked during French President Francois Hollande’s visit to New Delhi for Republic Day. It only dashed hopes of the Indian Air Force (IAF), which is struggling to cope with its depleting fleet strength, and also caused embarrassment for New Delhi as no major announcement was made during meeting of the top political leadership of both countries.

While visiting France in April 2015, Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced his decision to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets citing “operational necessity” of the IAF. Thirty-six nuclear-capable Rafale jets will come to India in fly-away condition fitted with weapon systems such as active electronically scanned phased array radar, high-end beyond-visual-range missiles and defensive weapon systems.

The depleting combat strength of the IAF has been a cause of concern as it is down to 34 fighter squadrons against its authorised strength of 42, based on certain projections in the next couple of years. IAF is getting four squadrons of Su-30, and subsequently indigenously-built Light Combat Aircraft Tejas is expected to fill its critical requirement. However, Tejas is still a long way to go.


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## Taygibay

OMG! A new twist? Who could have seen that coming?

 Tay.

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

On the morning of July 22, Indian Air Force flight AN-32, with 29 people on board, took off from the from the Tambaram air base in Chennai, winging its way across the Indian Ocean towards the Andaman Islands, before suddenly fell off the radar and is yet to be found. With each passing day, hopes of those on board surviving the crash dimmed and they are now presumed dead.

The passengers included 11 Indian Air Force personnel, three other Armed Forces officials, one from the Coast Guard and eight civilians, apart from six crew members.

This purported crash couldn’t have come at a worse time for the beleaguered Indian Air Force, already battling depleting combat squadron strength – it reportedly has 32 to 33 fighter squadrons against a recommended strength of 42 – and ageing aircraft, with no end in sight to the crisis.

*Rafale deal awaiting take-off*

On July 19, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar informed Parliament during its ongoing monsoon session that the deal to buy 36 Rafale aircraft from France was still stuck. Parrikar said both sides were still negotiating and the “the IGA [Inter-Governmental Agreement for the purchase of the aircraft] and the offset contract are yet to be finalised.”

The plan to buy Rafale fighter jets from France has been in the making for years now. In January, during French President Francois Hollande’s visit to India as the chief guest for the country’s Republic Day celebrations, Modi had said that India and France had “concluded an Inter-Government Agreement” for the purchase of the aircraft, but Parrikar’s recent statement indicates that the agreement is yet to be sealed.

Officials in Vayu Bhawan, the Air Force headquarters, told _Scroll.in_ that while pricing continues to be a major hurdle, there are also concerns about the offset clause that has held up the deal.

The original documents state that any foreign company that sells arms to India will have to channelise 50% of the cost back as contracts and business to Indian aviation companies. While the French feel that this is unrealistic, the Indian government is wary of diluting this contract.

“This [the dilution] can be construed as an act to help the French and could lead to adverse remarks from the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Central Vigilance Commission,” said a serving Air Marshal who wished to remain anonymous.

*Ageing aircraft*

For decades, the Indian Air Force was dependent on the Soviet-era MiG series of fighter aircraft – the MiG-21, MiG-25, MiG-23 and the MiG-27. It started purchasing the MiG-21 in the early 1960s and at one point, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the government-owned defence manufacturer, built nearly 700 of them.

But with time, the air force was forced to “number-plate” (the official term for retire) a number of its squadrons. Nearly a decade ago, the air force sought a sanction of maintaining at least 45 combat aircraft squadrons (each squadron has 18 aircraft). However, the government sanctioned only 42 squadrons. But as more and more of the older squadrons were number-plated, the Indian Air Force was left with an effective strength of only 30-odd combat aircraft squadrons.

Even the numbers are misleading. Most of the squadrons house about 260 MiG-21 fighters, which are nearly 30 years old. The balance of the squadron is a mixed bag, which reflects the poor planning that has plagued the Indian Air Force for decades. For instance, it has two squadrons of the MiG-29, two of the Mirage-2000, a French jet fighter, and a few squadrons of the Anglo-French Jaguars. Such a large inventory of different kinds of aircraft for a small air force spells logistical nightmare. It also reflects that the Indian Air Force was never allowed to strategise and acquire aircraft on a long-term perspective plan. As and when an aircraft became available, it managed to purchase them in bits and pieces.

Part of the problem was India’s confused view of the changing global geo-politics. In the 1970s and ’80s, it hesitantly started acquiring aircraft from the West, starting with the Jaguar and the Mirage-2000, but inducted them in very limited quantities. Later, it acquired the Sukhoi Su-30 from Russia.

History is set to repeat itself as India waits to acquire 36 Rafale – enough for about two squadrons – from France even as a larger deal to buy 126 of these fighter jets is likely to take longer to stitch up.

*Precarious position*

Part of the fault also lies in Indian Air Force’s inability to map its future challenges. Had that been done, it could have zeroed in on a particular kind of aircraft and then built it in India.

Instead, it chose to buy what was available in a unipolar world after the collapse of the Soviet Union. By the mid-1980s, Pakistan had already purchased the F-16s from the US, sending Indian Air Force planners into a tizzy. They started scouting for aircraft that could match up to the F-16 and zeroed in on the French Mirage-2000. But as tends to be the case, there were several rounds of discussion on the procurement process before the Centre eventually agreed to buy just two squadrons of the aircraft. Though it proved very effective, New Delhi did not go ahead with further purchases.

A few years later, New Delhi decided to purchase the Russian MiG-29. While plans were afoot to buy larger numbers, the government shut down the Indian Air Force’s proposal, restricting them to just two squadrons. The bulk of the force’s strength continued to be the MiG-21s, a wonderful aircraft in its time but by now an ageing plane that was reaching the end of its technical life. With over 250 in service, the IAF was looking at a serious crisis.

After the 1999 Kargil war between India and Pakistan, the Indian Air Force mooted the idea of buying 126 multi-role combat aircraft that could address a yawning gap. By 2007, plans had been formalised and in 2011, the request for proposals went out. Dassault, the manufacturers of the Rafale, won the bid and a plan was finalised for the purchase of 126 aircraft at an estimated cost of $8.5 billion. But as negotiations progressed, the price of the aircraft continued to climb and at one point, it was estimated that the final cost would be around $12 billion. Soon after taking charge of the Ministry of Defence in 2014, Parrikar said the deal was “effectively dead” and that they would look for indigenous options.

But the indigenous option – the Light Combat Aircraft christened Tejas, was still awaiting Final Operational Clearance. While it is indigenously designed and built, nearly 60% of its parts, including the engine, are imported from different countries. While the government took the decision to induct the first Tejas squadron the Indian Air Force, it is still short by nearly 110 combat aircraft, if one takes the original estimates. The MiG 21, meanwhile, is being phased out, reiterating the need to induct new aircraft.

Privately, Indian Air Force officials admit that they are not very happy with the decision to buy just 36 Rafale aircraft.

“We need a good workhorse aircraft,” said an Air Marshal. “The Rafale is like an expensive Mercedes that is a great product but comes at an incredible cost and throws our limited budget into disarray. What we need are light combat aircraft, just like the MiG-21 was.”

But Parrikar’s statement that the Rafale agreement is yet to be finalised comes as a further jolt to the Indian Air Force’s already precarious position.


http://scroll.in/article/812617/as-...dian-air-force-struggles-with-dwindling-fleet


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## PARIKRAMA

kahonapyarhai said:


> On the morning of July 22, Indian Air Force flight AN-32, with 29 people on board, took off from the from the Tambaram air base in Chennai, winging its way across the Indian Ocean towards the Andaman Islands, before suddenly fell off the radar and is yet to be found. With each passing day, hopes of those on board surviving the crash dimmed and they are now presumed dead.
> 
> The passengers included 11 Indian Air Force personnel, three other Armed Forces officials, one from the Coast Guard and eight civilians, apart from six crew members.
> 
> This purported crash couldn’t have come at a worse time for the beleaguered Indian Air Force, already battling depleting combat squadron strength – it reportedly has 32 to 33 fighter squadrons against a recommended strength of 42 – and ageing aircraft, with no end in sight to the crisis.
> 
> *Rafale deal awaiting take-off*
> 
> On July 19, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar informed Parliament during its ongoing monsoon session that the deal to buy 36 Rafale aircraft from France was still stuck. Parrikar said both sides were still negotiating and the “the IGA [Inter-Governmental Agreement for the purchase of the aircraft] and the offset contract are yet to be finalised.”
> 
> The plan to buy Rafale fighter jets from France has been in the making for years now. In January, during French President Francois Hollande’s visit to India as the chief guest for the country’s Republic Day celebrations, Modi had said that India and France had “concluded an Inter-Government Agreement” for the purchase of the aircraft, but Parrikar’s recent statement indicates that the agreement is yet to be sealed.
> 
> Officials in Vayu Bhawan, the Air Force headquarters, told _Scroll.in_ that while pricing continues to be a major hurdle, there are also concerns about the offset clause that has held up the deal.
> 
> The original documents state that any foreign company that sells arms to India will have to channelise 50% of the cost back as contracts and business to Indian aviation companies. While the French feel that this is unrealistic, the Indian government is wary of diluting this contract.
> 
> “This [the dilution] can be construed as an act to help the French and could lead to adverse remarks from the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Central Vigilance Commission,” said a serving Air Marshal who wished to remain anonymous.
> 
> *Ageing aircraft*
> 
> For decades, the Indian Air Force was dependent on the Soviet-era MiG series of fighter aircraft – the MiG-21, MiG-25, MiG-23 and the MiG-27. It started purchasing the MiG-21 in the early 1960s and at one point, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the government-owned defence manufacturer, built nearly 700 of them.
> 
> But with time, the air force was forced to “number-plate” (the official term for retire) a number of its squadrons. Nearly a decade ago, the air force sought a sanction of maintaining at least 45 combat aircraft squadrons (each squadron has 18 aircraft). However, the government sanctioned only 42 squadrons. But as more and more of the older squadrons were number-plated, the Indian Air Force was left with an effective strength of only 30-odd combat aircraft squadrons.
> 
> Even the numbers are misleading. Most of the squadrons house about 260 MiG-21 fighters, which are nearly 30 years old. The balance of the squadron is a mixed bag, which reflects the poor planning that has plagued the Indian Air Force for decades. For instance, it has two squadrons of the MiG-29, two of the Mirage-2000, a French jet fighter, and a few squadrons of the Anglo-French Jaguars. Such a large inventory of different kinds of aircraft for a small air force spells logistical nightmare. It also reflects that the Indian Air Force was never allowed to strategise and acquire aircraft on a long-term perspective plan. As and when an aircraft became available, it managed to purchase them in bits and pieces.
> 
> Part of the problem was India’s confused view of the changing global geo-politics. In the 1970s and ’80s, it hesitantly started acquiring aircraft from the West, starting with the Jaguar and the Mirage-2000, but inducted them in very limited quantities. Later, it acquired the Sukhoi Su-30 from Russia.
> 
> History is set to repeat itself as India waits to acquire 36 Rafale – enough for about two squadrons – from France even as a larger deal to buy 126 of these fighter jets is likely to take longer to stitch up.
> 
> *Precarious position*
> 
> Part of the fault also lies in Indian Air Force’s inability to map its future challenges. Had that been done, it could have zeroed in on a particular kind of aircraft and then built it in India.
> 
> Instead, it chose to buy what was available in a unipolar world after the collapse of the Soviet Union. By the mid-1980s, Pakistan had already purchased the F-16s from the US, sending Indian Air Force planners into a tizzy. They started scouting for aircraft that could match up to the F-16 and zeroed in on the French Mirage-2000. But as tends to be the case, there were several rounds of discussion on the procurement process before the Centre eventually agreed to buy just two squadrons of the aircraft. Though it proved very effective, New Delhi did not go ahead with further purchases.
> 
> A few years later, New Delhi decided to purchase the Russian MiG-29. While plans were afoot to buy larger numbers, the government shut down the Indian Air Force’s proposal, restricting them to just two squadrons. The bulk of the force’s strength continued to be the MiG-21s, a wonderful aircraft in its time but by now an ageing plane that was reaching the end of its technical life. With over 250 in service, the IAF was looking at a serious crisis.
> 
> After the 1999 Kargil war between India and Pakistan, the Indian Air Force mooted the idea of buying 126 multi-role combat aircraft that could address a yawning gap. By 2007, plans had been formalised and in 2011, the request for proposals went out. Dassault, the manufacturers of the Rafale, won the bid and a plan was finalised for the purchase of 126 aircraft at an estimated cost of $8.5 billion. But as negotiations progressed, the price of the aircraft continued to climb and at one point, it was estimated that the final cost would be around $12 billion. Soon after taking charge of the Ministry of Defence in 2014, Parrikar said the deal was “effectively dead” and that they would look for indigenous options.
> 
> But the indigenous option – the Light Combat Aircraft christened Tejas, was still awaiting Final Operational Clearance. While it is indigenously designed and built, nearly 60% of its parts, including the engine, are imported from different countries. While the government took the decision to induct the first Tejas squadron the Indian Air Force, it is still short by nearly 110 combat aircraft, if one takes the original estimates. The MiG 21, meanwhile, is being phased out, reiterating the need to induct new aircraft.
> 
> Privately, Indian Air Force officials admit that they are not very happy with the decision to buy just 36 Rafale aircraft.
> 
> “We need a good workhorse aircraft,” said an Air Marshal. “The Rafale is like an expensive Mercedes that is a great product but comes at an incredible cost and throws our limited budget into disarray. What we need are light combat aircraft, just like the MiG-21 was.”
> 
> But Parrikar’s statement that the Rafale agreement is yet to be finalised comes as a further jolt to the Indian Air Force’s already precarious position.
> 
> 
> http://scroll.in/article/812617/as-...dian-air-force-struggles-with-dwindling-fleet



There is a Rafale sticky.
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault-rafale-tender-news-discussions-thread-2.351407/

Pls post Rafale related news there and dont open new threads for the same.

@waz @WAJsal @WebMaster @mods
Request you to kindly merge this thread with the sticky thread.


*On Topic:*
Aug-Sep are very very crucial months. So there would be lots of false reports. Like this one and the one ydy in new Indian Express.
In coming days many things would be clear.

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## AugenBlick

Taygibay said:


> OMG! A new twist? Who could have seen that coming?
> 
> Tay.


Thak gaye yaar ... God only knows when these babies will land in Indian colors.

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## Trumpcard

> Such a large inventory of different kinds of aircraft for a small air force spells logistical nightmare
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/as-plan-to-purchase-rafale-aircraft-awaits-take-off-indian-air-force-struggles-with-dwindling-fleet.



The write up sounds logical but is IAF a small airforce?


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## 4GTejasBVR

It's true.. Really not happy with Modi and parikar on IAF front... ... IAF at its weakest


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## IceCold

Can anyone explain in simple terms whats the holdup? Is it the price issue or guarantees which India sought? Further more what is the status of those off the shelve purchase made directly from France?


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## Beast

India just need to eat the humble pie and paid whatever amount foreign countries ask for it since India can hardly make any combat jets. French,Russian and American know India is desperate and they will never lower their asking price. The time is on their side.

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## Johny D

Beast said:


> India just need to eat the humble pie and paid whatever amount foreign countries ask for it since India can hardly make any combat jets. French,Russian and American know India is desperate and they will never lower their asking price. The time is on their side.


you are so wrong in your analysis....had the time been on their side, it wouldn't have taken so long to get through the deal...Today customer is the king as far as India is concerned..we have so many choices that we are getting bit greedy in finalizing the deal..We are just trying to negotiate it very hard again and again by evaluating stuff from competitors....nothing wrong in saving few billions!...Additionally, new government is acting bit over vigilance as they have to stick to their policies of zero corruption and Make In India....these things are also causing delay to the induction of new defense techs..No country can make their defense force 100% satisfied...even Pentagon rejects the requests of US defense forces...

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## Blue Marlin

PARIKRAMA said:


> There is a Rafale sticky.
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault-rafale-tender-news-discussions-thread-2.351407/
> 
> Pls post Rafale related news there and dont open new threads for the same.
> 
> @waz @WAJsal @WebMaster @mods
> Request you to kindly merge this thread with the sticky thread.
> 
> 
> *On Topic:*
> Aug-Sep are very very crucial months. So there would be lots of false reports. Like this one and the one ydy in new Indian Express.
> In coming days many things would be clear.


will there ever be a point were the french say "no you take it or leave it, you have 2 weeks"

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## PARIKRAMA

Blue Marlin said:


> will there ever be a point were the french say "no you take it or leave it, you have 2 weeks"


I hope they say it.. either way we should buy or politely say no or French says the same.

Hopefully beyond aug sep I see this situation happening seriously

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## Beast

JD_In said:


> you are so wrong in your analysis....had the time been on their side, it wouldn't have taken so long to get through the deal...Today customer is the king as far as India is concerned..we have so many choices that we are getting bit greedy in finalizing the deal..We are just trying to negotiate it very hard again and again by evaluating stuff from competitors....nothing wrong in saving few billions!...Additionally, new government is acting bit over vigilance as they have to stick to their policies of zero corruption and Make In India....these things are also causing delay to the induction of new defense techs..No country can make their defense force 100% satisfied...even Pentagon rejects the requests of US defense forces...


Yes, when IAF left with 10 squadron of plane. I hope you can still held on to your believe


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## Johny D

Blue Marlin said:


> will there ever be a point were the french say "no you take it or leave it, you have 2 weeks"


There is no reason for French to say that...they are not loosing anything at the moment except keeping India engaged, but if they say so, they will certainly loose one major lead/potential pipeline which is not good for any company!



Beast said:


> Yes, when IAF left with 10 squadron of plane. I hope you can still held on to your believe


sure, will be good for our beloved neighbors, thanks for being so concerned...!


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## -xXx-

Blue Marlin said:


> will there ever be a point were the french say "no you take it or leave it, you have 2 weeks"



I wish that happen sooner.


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## Blue Marlin

PARIKRAMA said:


> I hope they say it.. either way we should buy or politely say no or French says the same.
> 
> *Hopefully *beyond aug sep I see this situation happening seriously


i thought your pro rafale???



JD_In said:


> There is no reason for French to say that...they are not loosing anything at the moment except keeping India engaged, but if they say so, they will certainly loose one major lead/potential pipeline which is not good for any company!
> 
> 
> sure, will be good for our beloved neighbors, thanks for being so concerned...!


its taking too long. you make long look like something thats not long



-xXx- said:


> I wish that happen sooner.


i guess love for the rafale has died then
@Vergennes

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## Vergennes

Blue Marlin said:


> will there ever be a point were the french say "no you take it or leave it, you have 2 weeks"



Trappier said 99% of the deal is finalized and that the ball is in India's side.



Blue Marlin said:


> no you take it or leave it, you have 2 weeks"



As probably many,I wish.
We know that negotiating with India is hard,that they are slow,but this has gone too far.

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## Johny D

Blue Marlin said:


> its taking too long. you make long look like something thats not long
> @Vergennes



Yes, we all agree it is taking too long but again its a big loss of India and not for the shortlisted vendors...French are not sitting on huge/any inventory of Rafales...its build to order stuff....additionally, the platform is pretty new hence French is not bothered about some urgent orders to keep the production line up and running...they will be even more happy if they get orders when the platform gets older as at that point in time flow of orders would be dried up increasing the risk of keeping the production line up and running.


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## nair

I agree that UPA has delayed it for ages........ Wonder what makes Modiji and Parikarji to delay it further?????

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## -xXx-

Blue Marlin said:


> i guess love for the rafale has died then



Unconditional love you must say.


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## Hellfire

IceCold said:


> Can anyone explain in simple terms whats the holdup? Is it the price issue or guarantees which India sought? Further more what is the status of those off the shelve purchase made directly from France?




Price.


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## -xXx-

Vergennes said:


> We know that negotiating with India is hard,that they are slow,but this has gone too far.



Yes it is, more so for a government change in place.

Anyways, Indo - French defence relations are multi dimensional and we work closely on many other things. The ties can not take a hit just because of one off deal. Not everything meant to work out perfectly, we can still be friends.

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## Hellfire

nair said:


> I agree that UPA has delayed it for ages........ Wonder what makes Modiji and Parikarji to delay it further?????



Systematic degradation of armed forces?

The only organisation which enjoys the respect of Indians across political, religious and caste affiliations. It needs to be cut to size and caste, religion and creed should rule supreme

Every politician and bureaucrat wishes it - CPC is another indicator ..

Need I elaborate more?

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## Taimur Khurram

PARIKRAMA said:


> I hope they say it.. either way we should buy or politely say no or French says the same.
> 
> Hopefully beyond aug sep I see this situation happening seriously



The deal seems to me like it will die, India should just stick to Russia. They seem more reliable.


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## nair

hellfire said:


> Systematic degradation of armed forces?



I really dono mate....... It is frustrating to see the way these guys are dealing it..... I am sure all of us remember the tag "Mother of all deals"....... How much money was wasted on the evaluation???? I had hopes on this DM and the way he started on deals..... But the way things are going looking like full of "GAS" Nothing else........ 


hellfire said:


> The only organisation which enjoys the respect of Indians across political, religious and caste affiliations. It needs to be cut to size and caste, religion and creed should rule supreme



I dont believe that could be the reason.... But for sure the inability of MoD, starting with Antony now MP

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## bdslph

Will the deal go through
As now india is order the super sukhio


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## danger007

nair said:


> I agree that UPA has delayed it for ages........ Wonder what makes Modiji and Parikarji to delay it further?????





Parrikar ji busy on serious issues, he and his team working on line to teach lesson to Amir and snap deal..

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## New Resolve

Cost is the issue and French are not budging then quantity might have to be cut down to 28 jets.


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## IceCold

hellfire said:


> Price.



So how long is this going to take before the French decides to back off?


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## A_Poster

bdslph said:


> Will the deal go through
> As now india is order the super sukhio




Super Sukhois are not being ordered. It is an mid life upgrade program of Sukhois already in Indian fleet.



Taygibay said:


> OMG! A new twist? Who could have seen that coming?
> 
> Tay.



Media in India does not have any sources in this government ,and their is lot of bad blood between government and Media. Indian media's guess is/would be worse then even this forum's poster.

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## punit

i wish French should give our overtly clever DM a royale fck off !


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## Hellfire

IceCold said:


> So how long is this going to take before the French decides to back off?



Ask the French. The LCC is quite high. No idea. Knowing Indian procurement procedure ... we may soon be augmenting our depleted strength with paper aeroplanes.

Disgusting if you ask me.

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## airmarshal

I dont know what India intends to do here. Reduced the fleet from 126 to 36 and still foot dragging from buying outright. May be Dassault should evaluate this deal and pull out. This is becoming such a farce.


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## Blue Marlin

Vergennes said:


> Trappier said 99% of the deal is finalized and that the ball is in India's side.
> 
> 
> 
> As probably many,I wish.
> We know that negotiating with India is hard,that they are slow,but this has gone too far.


how long has the ball been on the indian side?


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## Hellfire

Blue Marlin said:


> how long has the ball been on the indian side?


Long enough for Indians to have forgotten it is with them!!

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## nair

danger007 said:


> Parrikar ji busy on serious issues, he and his team working on line to teach lesson to Amir and snap deal..



Yeah true, A very serious issue in hand.......

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## IceCold

hellfire said:


> Ask the French. The LCC is quite high. No idea. Knowing Indian procurement procedure ... *we may soon be augmenting our depleted strength with paper aeroplanes.*
> 
> Disgusting if you ask me.



Indian bureaucracy has always been a hurdle or at least this is the impression i always get from you guys. But i thought with Modi things would be different. He was seen as a man of action. 
India still enjoy conventional superiority over Pakistan by 3 or 4 to 1. With whats going on in Pakistan i doubt if these numbers are ever going to change in our favour.


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## Blue Marlin

hellfire said:


> Long enough for Indians to have forgotten it is with them!!


so i guess this is a big blunder then. 
i tell you what would hurt is if france drops india and turns to pakistan and a deal goes through. i dont think they would want tech to help with the thunder but if they have deep pockets they order 70+ to replace the rose ll/lll and build them locally


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## rockstarIN

Blue Marlin said:


> so i guess this is a big blunder then.
> i tell you what would hurt is if france drops india and turns to pakistan and a deal goes through. i dont think they would want tech to help with the thunder but if they have deep pockets they order 70+ to replace the rose ll/lll and build them locally



Simply they cant afford it, could have been in PAF colours had they got enough money.


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## Taygibay

IceCold said:


> India still enjoy conventional superiority over Pakistan by 3 or 4 to 1. With whats going on in Pakistan i doubt if these numbers are ever going to change in our favour.



I don't think the Rafale is intended for Pakistan, IceCold. 

Have a great day, Tay.


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## IceCold

Taygibay said:


> I don't think the Rafale is intended for Pakistan, IceCold.
> 
> Have a great day, Tay.



Yeah well they do have the Chinese factor to cater too but bulk of their equipment is always facing us (irrespective of what Indians usually say on PDF) and that will include Rafale as well if they ever see the light of the day.


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## I M Sikander

kahonapyarhai said:


> Parrikar said both sides were still negotiating and the “the IGA [Inter-Governmental Agreement for the purchase of the aircraft] and the offset contract are yet to be finalised.”


Here goes all the chest thumping of the mother of all deals.



kahonapyarhai said:


> The original documents state that any foreign company that sells arms to India will have to channelise 50% of the cost back as contracts and business to Indian aviation companies. While the French feel that this is unrealistic, the Indian government is wary of diluting this contract.


Indian asking too much on such a small deal of just 36 jets. They still behave as if they are buying 124 jets.


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## Athen

Are we there yet??


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## kaykay

Problem will definitely occur when you'll replace old 3rd gen aircrafts with 4th gen ones on one to one basis..... presently MKIs are replacing Mig-21s and 27s on one to one basis while Tejas has joined the party recently too as we await Rafale for the same. So even if our numerical strength is a bit dwindling for now, just think its capability.....


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## Taygibay

^^^

That's true! A single Rafale has the same capacities as 2 to 3 M2000s
depending on the type of mission so it's not 1 for 1 exactly.

But you still need a minimum number of aircrafts as even "_5th gen_" ones
are not equipped with ubiquity.

Good day to you, Tay.

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## nang2

I think India is waiting for the exchange rate of euro to drop further.

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## Abingdonboy

bdslph said:


> Will the deal go through


Yes.

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## Taygibay

nang2 said:


> I think India is waiting for the exchange rate of euro to drop further.



LOL, by that metric, they should turn to L2 as the Pound is taking a dive?

 Tay.


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## PARIKRAMA

Sarcasm mode On

We will get Koh-i-noor back from Britishers and buy not 36 but rather 54 Rafales with it..

Sarcasm mode off

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## Hephaestus

Abingdonboy said:


> Yes.


What's the hold-up now?

Are they negotiating & planning to announce the MII as well along with the G2G. I wait in perpetual hope.

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## Centurion2016

Ridiculous situation

India Defense budget is the 10th Largest in the world
Forex Reserves of $380 billion

LAST YEAR THE INDIA MILITAY SENT BACK OVER $1 BILLION of unused capital expenditure money/funds.

The issue is not money

ITS INDIA RED TAPE BUROCRACY ....

The indian air force is slowest at modernisation of all 3 services

SU30MKI are maintenance intensive fleet down to 60-70%
operational planes at any time That means today 70+ SU30MKI are non operational

LCA TEJAS great replacement for mig21 BUT india needed this ten years. Indian can manufacture 6 a year they need 40 a year

MIG29 ridiculous service record down to 35% operational planes

IAF is a joke

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## Abingdonboy

nang2 said:


> I think India is waiting for the exchange rate of euro to drop further.





Taygibay said:


> LOL, by that metric, they should turn to L2 as the Pound is taking a dive?
> 
> Tay.


The EFT was priced according to the Euro-INR ER.




Centurion2016 said:


> The indian air force is slowest at modernisation of all 3 services


Nope, that would be the IA by a country mile. 



Centurion2016 said:


> SU30MKI are maintenance intensive fleet down to 60-70%


75% be the end of the year which isn't bad for a twin engined Russian-origin plane.



Centurion2016 said:


> LCA TEJAS great replacement for mig21 BUT india needed this ten years. Indian can manufacture 6 a year they need 40 a year


16/year by 2018.



Centurion2016 said:


> MIG29 ridiculous service record down to 35% operational planes


Nope, about 70-75%.



Hephaestus said:


> What's the hold-up now?
> 
> Are they negotiating & planning to announce the MII as well along with the G2G. I wait in perpetual hope.


@PARIKRAMA is doing a good job of keeping us informed go back and see his latest updates (previous page).

I don't think the MII deal will be announced at the same time as the G-G deal is clinched. The G-G deal is a few weeks from being signed, the MII deal will be signed in 2017.



kaykay said:


> Problem will definitely occur when you'll replace old 3rd gen aircrafts with 4th gen ones on one to one basis..... presently MKIs are replacing Mig-21s and 27s on one to one basis while Tejas has joined the party recently too as we await Rafale for the same. So even if our numerical strength is a bit dwindling for now, just think its capability.....


Well the IAF is still working to a strength and not capability model. So they are trying to meet their sanctioned strength (42 SQNs) by 2025, beyond that the strength will be expanded to 45 (by 2027), then 50 (by 2030).


But, yes, your point stands and it is worth noting in the face of those alarmist reports from presstitutes declaring India is losing its edge to the PAF!

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## Taygibay

​


Abingdonboy said:


> The EFT was priced according to the Euro-INR ER.



Yeah but since, Brexit happened and that could help exports? 




Abingdonboy said:


> 75% be the end of the year which isn't bad for a twin engined Russian-origin plane.



Oh, I'm glad someone else said that ... but I've got this sudden urge to stool on you to Vostok! 




Abingdonboy said:


> Nope, about 70-75%. . . . _Ref. - Indian MiG 29s_



Really? So the dual seaters must have reached 115% availability, no? 




Abingdonboy said:


> I don't think the MII deal will be announced at the same time as the G-G deal is clinched.



Not announced but it could be hinted at as upcoming ...
to help the IAF fans fend off trolls, huh sorry, other fans! 

Plus it may generate enough copy to endear this government in the media's eyes
just in time for next year's elections? 


Only one of these statements is serious.

Keep smiling good folks, Tay.


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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> Yeah but since, Brexit happened and that could help exports?


Brexit, what Brexit? 

Have we enacted Article 50 yet? 

Beleive me, you won't get rid of us that easily, we are going to drag this out. Britain is good at that, right?



Taygibay said:


> Oh, I'm glad someone else said that ... but I've got this sudden urge to stool on you to Vostok!



Bring it on 



Taygibay said:


> Really? So the dual seaters must have reached 115% availability, no?


I was talking specifically about the IAF's MiG-29B's availability. The IN's MiG-29K/KUB availability is a different subject (hovering around 50% but being increased it has to be said).



Taygibay said:


> Not announced but it could be hinted at as upcoming ...
> to help the IAF fans fend off trolls, huh sorry, other fans!


Dassualt (Mr Tappier) has explicitly stated it (not that any presstitutes were paying attention) a long time ago. 



Taygibay said:


> Plus it may generate enough copy to endear this government in the media's eyes
> just in time for next year's elections?



The next GE is in 2019

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## Blue Marlin

Taygibay said:


> ​
> 
> 
> Yeah but since, Brexit happened and that could help exports?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I'm glad someone else said that ... but I've got this sudden urge to stool on you to Vostok!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? So the dual seaters must have reached 115% availability, no?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not announced but it could be hinted at as upcoming ...
> to help the IAF fans fend off trolls, huh sorry, other fans!
> 
> Plus it may generate enough copy to endear this government in the media's eyes
> just in time for next year's elections?
> 
> 
> Only one of these statements is serious.
> 
> Keep smiling good folks, Tay.


the typhoon is a good bird its just that you either have to be arab, european or a country near a major sea lane country to buy one. countries like india russia,japan and china are able to build their own. now countries like turkey pakistan and south korea are in the midst of building/developing their own or have a joint venture jets. so its understandable that the market for such a bird is very low even for the rafale and the f15, bird such as the f16 and the f18 and later on the f35 are cheap enought to be purchased in large numbers. if the uk can give very good incentives and financail goodies they will be able to bag orders from a few more countries. pakistan, indoneasia vietnam and possibly malaysia


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## Abingdonboy

Blue Marlin said:


> if the uk can give very good incentives and financail goodies they will be able to bag orders from a few more countries. pakistan, indoneasia vietnam and possibly malaysia


Once the Rafale finds a home in India the Malaysians will follow suit. The RMAF bases a lot of their operational practices on the IAF.


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## Taygibay

Abingdonboy said:


> The next GE is in 2019


Yeah but states are up for grabs as always in your land and Modi could be . . .
in a rush to take selfies as prez and roam the world _relax max_ on a new hugging trip? 



Blue Marlin said:


> the typhoon is a good bird its just that you either have to be arab, european or a country near a major sea lane country to buy one. countries like india russia,japan and china are able to build their own. now countries like turkey pakistan and south korea are in the midst of building/developing their own or have a joint venture jets. so its understandable that the market for such a bird is very low even for the rafale and the f15, bird such as the f16 and the f18 and later on the f35 are cheap enought to be purchased in large numbers. if the uk can give very good incentives and financail goodies they will be able to bag orders from a few more countries. pakistan, indoneasia vietnam and possibly malaysia



Man, even though it wasn't mentioned and despite some factual mishaps,
... that sounded very much like an advert for my favourite jet fighter! 

I'm probably tired and just misread. I'll come back to it later ... ------» [ ]

 Tay.

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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> Yeah but states are up for grabs as always in your land


There are always state elections but I don't think this reality has ever affected a defence deal, these things are federal affairs that the states barely bat an eyelid about.



Taygibay said:


> and Modi could be . . .in a rush to take selfies as prez and roam the world _relax max_ on a new hugging trip?


Took the words right out of my mouth. One thing Modi is, is a man in a rush.

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## Vergennes

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @Blue Marlin 

Hollande realized that he must hug the Modi to get the billions of €. Smart man. *
When billions of € and thousands of jobs depend on a hug.

*Abroad,not at home.

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## Abingdonboy

Vergennes said:


> @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @Blue Marlin
> 
> Hollande realized that he must hug the Modi to get the billions of €. Smart man. *
> When billions of € and thousands of jobs depend on a hug.
> 
> *Abroad,not at home.
> 
> View attachment 322513


Modi would never miss an opportunity for a good ol' hug.

A workoholic childless bachelor must get lonely

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## Blue Marlin

Vergennes said:


> @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @Blue Marlin
> 
> Hollande realized that he must hug the Modi to get the billions of €. Smart man. *
> When billions of € and thousands of jobs depend on a hug.
> 
> *Abroad,not at home.
> 
> View attachment 322513


i think hollande needs to got back to india and give him a big hug to make sure he gets those billions
i could not find that weird pink bear you like so i thought this will do

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## Abingdonboy

Blue Marlin said:


> i think hollande needs to got back to india and give him a big hug to make sure he gets those billions
> i could not find that weird pink bear you like so i thought this will do

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## Vergennes

Blue Marlin said:


> i think hollande needs to got back to india and give him a big hug to make sure he gets those billions
> i could not find that weird pink bear you like so i thought this will do



I find surprising that someone wants to hug Hollande,in fact the average french would spit at his face.



Abingdonboy said:


>



Back ? Surel not ! I might regret the former president Sarkozy when France had incredibly warm and dynamic relations with all the emerging powers and powers of this world. India,Brazil,Russia... China...

Soon...

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## Abingdonboy

Vergennes said:


> Back ? Surel not ! I might regret the former president Sarkozy when France had incredibly warm and dynamic relations with all the emerging powers and powers of this world. India,Brazil,Russia... China..


I'm sure Hollande has another Indian visit in him, India will make it worth his while.....










Vergennes said:


> Soon...



How likely is this? 

I always liked Sarkozy, he seemed good for Indian-French ties.

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## Hellfire

IceCold said:


> Indian bureaucracy has always been a hurdle or at least this is the impression i always get from you guys. But i thought with Modi things would be different. He was seen as a man of action.
> India still enjoy conventional superiority over Pakistan by 3 or 4 to 1. With whats going on in Pakistan i doubt if these numbers are ever going to change in our favour.



True that. Bureaucracy has been a pain 

The Indian strategic thinking (howsoever rudimentary it is) has shifted from Pakistan to China. Reason for it is the unsettled boundary dispute. The Pakistan 'threat' has been factored in as India is shifting it's focus to China. The Chinese pressure will be directly proportional to its thinking of achievement of synergistic economic-military development. As the socio-economic development occurred, the thrust on modernizing the armed forces came to fore. The Chinese military today feels confident of asserting its claims militarily in South China Sea. Their recent incursions into Indian side can be seen in the wider context of sending message to India to keep clear of SCS ..... something that will only push India to increase a co-ordinated response with others in region. The present governments game plan is of a longer term, what remains to be seen is the execution. There are things occurring off the radar, which do not find mention in the mainstream media. An overhaul of the system is occurring, but too much time is being spent on staving off controversies created by idiots from the saffron brigade.

About China. You are free of that issue for now due to the Sino-Pak boundary agreement of 1963. As long as the Kashmir issue is not settled, your relations with China will not be affected. The issue comes into fore with settlement of Kashmir issue bilaterally. The Chinese equation will become pertinent for both Pakistan and India in that case.

Reason? The temporary nature of your agreement with them and clause for re-negotiation of agreement on settlement of Kashmir issue. China historically claims inheritance of all rights and suzerainty over areas even briefly held by it at some point in history. Tibet had some suzerainty over Gilgit-Ladakh-Nirthern Areas at some point in history. So the contention.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Sarcasm mode On
> 
> We will get Koh-i-noor back from Britishers and buy not 36 but rather 54 Rafales with it..
> 
> Sarcasm mode off




You will get categorized along with @Joe Shearer and me for that ...



Blue Marlin said:


> so i guess this is a big blunder then.
> i tell you what would hurt is if france drops india and turns to pakistan and a deal goes through. i dont think they would want tech to help with the thunder but if they have deep pockets they order 70+ to replace the rose ll/lll and build them locally



Not exactly. We have been deft in using Europeans against US against Russia. At the end of the day, it's about money. And we have that



Blue Marlin said:


>



Modi won't hug you if you carry this expression

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## Vergennes

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm sure Hollande has another Indian visit in him, India will make it worth his while.....



We hope that it would be signed as soon as possible. It's not 'if',it's just 'when'. At least,signing 3 Rafale deals,bringing billions into the defense industry and creating jobs would be among the best thing he did before the end of his quinquennat.




> How likely is this




Officially,he isn't candidate in the primaries of his party,but is likely to announce it soon. 
He has very good opinions within his party's voters.
Before his come back into politics (after the defeat of 2012),the right was so divided,had many internal conflicts and was near bankruptcy. He saved it by bringing order and avoid the implosion. He unified the right and avoided his party to fall to the point of no return.
-
Then in the presidential elections,the second round will most likely see Marine Le Pen vs Sarkozy (admitting he wins the primaries) and he will be seen as the only one to prevent Marine to win. He will most likely try to gain the votes from those that feel betrayed from the socialists and the left in general,because I suggest that many would want to go to the FN.



> I always liked Sarkozy, he seemed good for Indian-French ties.



He has a vision and knows that the future lies with emerging powers.

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## Blue Marlin

hellfire said:


> Not exactly. We have been deft in using Europeans against US against Russia. At the end of the day, it's about money. And we have that


never underestimate them, god knows what they have planned



hellfire said:


> Modi won't hug you if you carry this expression

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## Joe Shearer

Vergennes said:


> We hope that it would be signed as soon as possible. It's not 'if',it's just 'when'. At least,signing 3 Rafale deals,bringing billions into the defense industry and creating jobs would be among the best thing he did before the end of his quinquennat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Officially,he isn't candidate in the primaries of his party,but is likely to announce it soon.
> He has very good opinions within his party's voters.
> Before his come back into politics (after the defeat of 2012),the right was so divided,had many internal conflicts and was near bankruptcy. He saved it by bringing order and avoid the implosion. He unified the right and avoided his party to fall to the point of no return.
> -
> Then in the presidential elections,the second round will most likely see Marine Le Pen vs Sarkozy (admitting he wins the primaries) and he will be seen as the only one to prevent Marine to win. He will most likely try to gain the votes from those that feel betrayed from the socialists and the left in general,because I suggest that many would want to go to the FN.
> 
> 
> 
> He has a vision and knows that the future lies with emerging powers.



@Vergennes 

What the devil is it about the love affair between the British, the French and the Germans with the Hungarians, and of the British and the French with the Poles? To an outsider, it sometimes reaches mythical proportions.


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## Vergennes

Joe Shearer said:


> @Vergennes
> 
> What the devil is it about the love affair between the British, the French and the Germans with the Hungarians, and of the British and the French with the Poles? To an outsider, it sometimes reaches mythical proportions.



Sorry I don't think I understood this question.


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## Joe Shearer

Vergennes said:


> Sorry I don't think I understood this question.



It seems to me that the three great European powers have a soft corner in their hearts for some of the outliers. The amount of time and attention given to them is disproportionate; the Scandinavians don't get anywhere that kind of affectionate mention. These are both swashbuckling, boldly moustached, nations of gallants, sabres swinging at their sides, and swooning maidens in their arms, out for death or glory. Poniatowski (the son, the French Marshal) dying a hero's death in battle, apocryphal Polish lancers charging German panzers (never happened, but why spoil a good story?), Hungarians riding through windmills, or wheeling a coach and pair down a city staircase - such totally outrageous figures, so hugely larger than life.

Is it my imagination or do the Brits, the French and the Germans have very soft corners for these two races? (just think Uhlan, Hussar and Lancer, for instance; all light cavalry seems to have stemmed from these two). Even the British adopted lancers, not just their own, but the incredibly good light cavalry they found in India.


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## Ankit Kumar 002

@PARIKRAMA
A written reply from Parikkar to a question asked about Rafale by a minister. 

" As per the India-France Joint Statement issued by the two countries during the Prime Minister’s visit to France, Government of India conveyed to the Government of France that in view of the critical operational necessity for Multirole Combat Aircraft for Indian Air Force (IAF), Government of India would like to acquire 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition. Both the sides also agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) for supply of the aircraft. A Negotiating Team has been constituted to negotiate the terms and conditions of the procurement of 36 Rafale jets and recommend a draft agreement. On 25th January, 2016, a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for procurement of 36 Rafale was signed by the Governments of India and France. The details like cost of procurement, training of fighter pilots of Indian Air Force, etc. would emerge after the conclusion of IGA. "
From a Press Release. 



This is from today in the parliament , and he is not revealing anything. 

The question was about " Did India and France have signed any agreement on fighter jets ? "

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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> A written reply from Parikkar to a question asked about Rafale by a minister.
> 
> " As per the India-France Joint Statement issued by the two countries during the Prime Minister’s visit to France, Government of India conveyed to the Government of France that in view of the critical operational necessity for Multirole Combat Aircraft for Indian Air Force (IAF), Government of India would like to acquire 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition. Both the sides also agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) for supply of the aircraft. A Negotiating Team has been constituted to negotiate the terms and conditions of the procurement of 36 Rafale jets and recommend a draft agreement. On 25th January, 2016, a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for procurement of 36 Rafale was signed by the Governments of India and France. The details like cost of procurement, training of fighter pilots of Indian Air Force, etc. would emerge after the conclusion of IGA. "
> From a Press Release.
> 
> 
> 
> This is from today in the parliament , and he is not revealing anything.
> 
> The question was about " Did India and France have signed any agreement on fighter jets ? "



Yes. The MOU to IGA is like a Step 3. We are done with Step 4 and awaiting Step 5 from quite some time.


Initial Discussion
Understanding and initial negotiations
MOU to IGA
Final Negotiations (could not reach in jan 2016)
DM MP Note to CCS
CCS Approval
Formal IGA (people will come from France)
Formal Contract ( DA and party will come formally
Payment to confirm the terms as per the contract
Waiting period
Training process and other agreed steps in IGA under process
Rafale for India will undergo certification
Rafale in IAF colors (handover to IAF)
Bear in mind step 13 (oh yeah number 13 !) is when Rafale In IAF colors officially.

Its a long process.. and bear in mind IGA and MOU to IGA has MII component as well implying Step 11 will have a very different approach as well.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Yes. The MOU to IGA is like a Step 3. We are done with Step 4 and awaiting Step 5 from quite some time.
> 
> 
> Initial Discussion
> Understanding and initial negotiations
> MOU to IGA
> Final Negotiations (could not reach in jan 2016)
> DM MP Note to CCS
> CCS Approval
> Formal IGA (people will come from France)
> Formal Contract ( DA and party will come formally
> Payment to confirm the terms as per the contract
> Waiting period
> Training process and other agreed steps in IGA under process
> Rafale for India will undergo certification
> Rafale in IAF colors (handover to IAF)
> Bear in mind step 13 (oh yeah number 13 !) is when Rafale In IAF colors officially.
> 
> Its a long process.. and bear in mind IGA and MOU to IGA has MII component as well implying Step 11 will have a very different approach as well.


Everything up to step 10 should be completed by Q4 2016 otherwise........

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## Grevion

PARIKRAMA said:


> Yes. The MOU to IGA is like a Step 3. We are done with Step 4 and awaiting Step 5 from quite some time.
> 
> 
> Initial Discussion
> Understanding and initial negotiations
> MOU to IGA
> Final Negotiations (could not reach in jan 2016)
> DM MP Note to CCS
> CCS Approval
> Formal IGA (people will come from France)
> Formal Contract ( DA and party will come formally
> Payment to confirm the terms as per the contract
> Waiting period
> Training process and other agreed steps in IGA under process
> Rafale for India will undergo certification
> Rafale in IAF colors (handover to IAF)
> Bear in mind step 13 (oh yeah number 13 !) is when Rafale In IAF colors officially.
> 
> Its a long process.. and bear in mind IGA and MOU to IGA has MII component as well implying Step 11 will have a very different approach as well.


What do we do during step 10?

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## [Bregs]

litefire said:


> What do we do during step 10?



arey bhai waiting for the time to make the aircraft for india

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## Ankit Kumar 002

litefire said:


> What do we do during step 10?



The same thing we are doing right now....

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## Grevion

[Bregs] said:


> arey bhai waiting for the time to make the aircraft for india





Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> The same thing we are doing right now....


LOL. Was actually kidding.

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## Abingdonboy

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> The same thing we are doing right now....


Except it will be more like:








As opposed to how it is right now........

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## Stephen Cohen

@PARIKRAMA 
*India, France Move Closer to Rafale Fighter Deal*

*http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...nce-move-closer-rafale-fighter-deal/87951264/*

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## GuardianRED

Stephen Cohen said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> *India, France Move Closer to Rafale Fighter Deal*
> 
> *http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...nce-move-closer-rafale-fighter-deal/87951264/*

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## Stephen Cohen

GuardianRED said:


>

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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> *India, France Move Closer to Rafale Fighter Deal*
> 
> *http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...nce-move-closer-rafale-fighter-deal/87951264/*


Lol, one day the deal is stuck, the next "moving closer". 

Presstitutes.

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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> Lol, one day the deal is stuck, the next "moving closer".
> 
> Presstitutes.



FATHER TIME will take care of the Rafale deal ;
It HAS to happen ONE DAY 

They cannot postpone it for ever

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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> They cannot postpone it for ever


I would have argued Parrikar is perfectly capable of doing so but Modi is not a man who wastes time.

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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> I would have argued Parrikar is perfectly capable of doing so but Modi is not a man who wastes time.



SO much BACKLOG has to be cleared and has been cleared 

For example ; Our AN 32 crashed ; now we know that it did not have some BASIC equipment 
like some beacons or devices which give signals coming from under water 

Now this will become top priority ; Then there was some news earlier about 
Rifles ; Parachutes ; BPJs 

All small things add up to a Big sum of money 

Fortunately PAF has its own problems ; that has given us space 

At least Parrikar and Modi are putting in efforts ; but Funds are definitely limited

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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> SO much BACKLOG has to be cleared and has been cleared
> 
> For example ; Our AN 32 crashed ; now we know that it did not have some BASIC equipment
> like some beacons or devices which give signals coming from under water
> 
> Now this will become top priority ; Then there was some news earlier about
> Rifles ; Parachutes ; BPJs
> 
> All small things add up to a Big sum of money
> 
> Fortunately PAF has its own problems ; that has given us space
> 
> At least Parrikar and Modi are putting in efforts ; but Funds are definitely limited


Funds being limited is a total red herring bro, last year the Indian Mil returned >$1BN USD in unspent CAPEX.

I concede that this GoI inherited a HUGE backlog and they have started chipping away at it, no doubt about it. BUT there are also some low-hanging fruit that they haven't plucked and MP has thrown a spanner into multiple procurements.

The Rafale deal could be one of Modi's crowning acheivments in the defence field during his first term however. 


On the procurement front I'm willing to give Parrikar a 7/10, overall his performance is around a 4/10 though.


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## GuardianRED

Stephen Cohen said:


> SO much BACKLOG has to be cleared and has been cleared
> 
> For example ; Our AN 32 crashed ; now we know that it did not have some BASIC equipment
> like some beacons or devices which give signals coming from under water
> 
> Now this will become top priority ; Then there was some news earlier about
> Rifles ; Parachutes ; BPJs
> 
> All small things add up to a Big sum of money
> 
> Fortunately PAF has its own problems ; that has given us space
> 
> At least Parrikar and Modi are putting in efforts ; but Funds are definitely limited



_*"did not have some BASIC equipment"*_

How was the Dornier found

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## Stephen Cohen

Abingdonboy said:


> Funds being limited is a total red herring bro, last year the Indian Mil returned >$1BN USD in unspent CAPEX.



They transferred it to revenue expenditure ; anyway the Central government finances are 
bad because the previous govt just BURNT money on many wasteful schemes 

The debt of previous govt has to be repaid and economy boosted at the same time

Anyway That is another topic ; a huge topic 



Abingdonboy said:


> On the procurement front I'm willing to give Parrikar a 7/10, overall his performance is around a 4/10 though.



Parrikar has done a lot on several fronts ; we discussed it in that Antony thread yesterday 

If he could have 10 Billion dollars more he would have have purchased all that we wish for

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## Abingdonboy

Stephen Cohen said:


> If he could have 10 Billion dollars more he would have have purchased all that we wish for


Well of course bro but there are also some things that he could do that would not cost much money at all on the reform/policy front that he has completely left untouched.

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## Malik Alashter

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/760660224814387201

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## PARIKRAMA

In the sputnik link above one line is very interesting

according to reports, 36 planes will be provided within 36 months after signing the contract.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20160803/1043881190/france-india-rafale-jets-deal.html#ixzz4GF1PvHg3

If this is true, This clearly proves Indian order has been under work for some good time and this deal was always a matter of when formally announced..

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> In the sputnik link above one line is very interesting
> 
> according to reports, 36 planes will be provided within 36 months after signing the contract.
> 
> Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20160803/1043881190/france-india-rafale-jets-deal.html#ixzz4GF1PvHg3
> 
> If this is true, This clearly proves Indian order has been under work for some good time and this deal was always a matter of when formally announced..




Did you see the Word DOZENS in that news 

MONSIEUR We would like 15 DOZEN Rafales Please

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## randomradio

Stephen Cohen said:


> Did you see the Word DOZENS in that news
> 
> MONSIEUR We would like 15 DOZEN Rafales Please



A baker's dozen is even better. One free Rafale for every dozen.

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## Abingdonboy

Malik Alashter said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/760660224814387201


When Sputnik is reporting it you know the day is near....

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## [Bregs]

Abingdonboy said:


> Except it will be more like:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As opposed to how it is right now........




hahahah very well explained

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## dani958

*INDIA, FRANCE MOVE CLOSER TO RAFALE FIGHTER DEAL*
*WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 03, 2016 BY INDIANDEFENSE NEWS*




*by Vivek Raghuvanshi
NEW DELHI* — India and France move closer to concluding a Rafale fighter-jet deal, estimated at around $9 billion, as the two countries have agreed to sign an inter-governmental agreement (IGA), which was one of the obstacles towards an eventual sale.
Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar told parliament Aug. 2 in a written reply that an agreement has been reached to sign the IGA.
"Both sides also agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) for supply of the aircraft. A negotiating team has been constituted to negotiate the terms and conditions of the procurement of 36 Rafale jets and recommend a draft agreement," the defense ministry said in a statement, quoting Parrikar.
In an earlier reply to the Indian parliament, on July 19, Parrikar had said "negotiations are underway and IGA and offset contract are yet to be finalized."
The Indian defense minister had then said then that the 36 aircraft being procured will have advanced features like Advanced Electronically Scanned Array radar, mid-air refueling and advanced electronic-warfare equipment as part of its design.
The two sides now have finalized the details for weaponry and other modifications to be made on the aircraft, a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) official said.
The finer details of the offset and cost of the aircraft are still being worked, an MoD official said, adding that those would be completed "soon."
To execute the offsets, several French companies including Safran, MBDA and Thales will join Dassault in providing state-of-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles and materials for electronics and micro-electronics.
For the 36 Rafale fighters, India also will procure unspecified numbers of Mica air-to-air missiles, SCALP air-to-ground missile and Meteor beyond-visual-range missile and precision-guided munitions.
In addition, a separate agreement for five years of maintenance and engineering support will be signed.
India is expected to receive all 36 Rafale fighters in fly-away condition within 36 months after signing the final contract.

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## IndoUS

I don't even....


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## neem456

Closer ? by mm or cm ?


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## thesolar65

Both the countries are in missionary......that's the closest one can get!!

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## Ankit Kumar 002

@dani958
Untill it's something big keep Every thing about Rafale to the dedicated thread. 

@waz @Oscar please do the needful.

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## dani958

the
negotiation
with india take alot of time why is that?

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## Picdelamirand-oil

dani958 said:


> the
> negotiation
> with india take alot of time why is that?


For administration, Indian IST time is 8 time slower that normal time.

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## Echo_419

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> For administration, Indian IST time is 8 time slower that normal time.


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## [Bregs]

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> For administration, Indian IST time is 8 time slower that normal time.



lol well said

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## PARIKRAMA

Source based News:

Meteor UL- BVR missile is offered not only in Rafale Jets but a preliminary customization study is underway and is included in requirements under Super 30 upgrade program (under HAL portion of work).
MBDA is offering to provide some help in the seeker side of Astra Mk1 and dual pulse version of Astra Mk2.
Meteor is expected to be added to common pool of IAF weapons along with Astra Mk1.
Buzz is also there that a new paper detailing MICA NG is being shared. It said new MICA improves sensors, propellants and NEZ considerably.

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> Source based News:
> 
> Meteor UL- BVR missile is offered not only in Rafale Jets but a preliminary customization study is underway and is included in requirements under Super 30 upgrade program (under HAL portion of work).
> MBDA is offering to provide some help in the seeker side of Astra Mk1 and dual pulse version of Astra Mk2.
> Meteor is expected to be added to common pool of IAF weapons along with Astra Mk1.
> Buzz is also there that a new paper detailing MICA NG is being shared. It said new MICA improves sensors, propellants and NEZ considerably.


Bro... with the amount of time taken to sign this deal... The above Sourced based News BETTER be TRUE

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## cerberus

PARIKRAMA said:


> Meteor UL- BVR missile is offered not only in Rafale Jets but a preliminary customization study is underway and is included in requirements under Super 30 upgrade program (under HAL portion of work).


What happens RFI That was issued by GOI for Meteor and Brimestone

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## raj76

one thing is obvious that if the deal was just about jet and price it wouldn't have taken so long but it is evident that it will be bringing a lot of subsystems along with it

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## PARIKRAMA

cerberus said:


> What happens RFI That was issued by GOI for Meteor and Brimestone



Meteor may happen as its set to be inducted to common pool once super 30 config is done.. Brimestone will be replaced by AASM Hammer family I guess.. not sure if we take it unless MBDA gives us again something lucrative to cut the deal.


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## rockstarIN

PARIKRAMA said:


> Source based News:
> 
> Meteor UL- BVR missile is offered not only in Rafale Jets but a preliminary customization study is underway and is included in requirements under Super 30 upgrade program (under HAL portion of work).
> MBDA is offering to provide some help in the seeker side of Astra Mk1 and dual pulse version of Astra Mk2.
> Meteor is expected to be added to common pool of IAF weapons along with Astra Mk1.
> Buzz is also there that a new paper detailing MICA NG is being shared. It said new MICA improves sensors, propellants and NEZ considerably.



Isn't such expensive Meteor deals cannibalize Astra programme? specially the future blocks?

There is no point then paying hefty sum for astra integration into Rafale!

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## PARIKRAMA

rockstarIN said:


> Isn't such expensive Meteor deals cannibalize Astra programme? specially the future blocks?
> 
> There is no point then paying hefty sum for astra integration into Rafale!



It's for special missions.. for HV air targets as well as range which is above 150km.

What I have in some presentation which I cannot share , NEZ is quoted at 115km and high to medium Pk engagement upto 185km also denoted as effective range with highest probability of kill. The maximum range of engagement is around 250 km but beyond the medium Pk range , the probability drops drastically... So for pure missions purposes what the presentation quoted is above 150 km and I gave that figure first.

The quoted numbers in public dox in and around most places is a ultra long range 300 km in a pure high altitude launch mission and NEZ around 100km. Meteor smartly talks about 100km + range and does nt divulge much.

Effective ranges of 80-120 km range will be Astra Mk1. R77 is around 80km and R27 around 110-120km. In simple words effective range is not that high as compared to the MKI Mini AWACs capability.

Also weight pov, meteor is lighter as compared to other missiles of such UL range.

So idea is to replace R77and R27 with Astra Mk1 and beyond that range with Meteor.

In return we will seek some special help for Astra Mk2. There is a similar missile R37 family like Meteor that will come in PAKFA for similar range.

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## zebra7

rockstarIN said:


> Isn't such expensive Meteor deals cannibalize Astra programme? specially the future blocks?
> 
> There is no point then paying hefty sum for astra integration into Rafale!



Nope !! Missile like Meteor are very long range BVR, which means its usage would need

1, Long range Radar >=200 km

2. Confirmed IFF/Friends or Foe confirmation -- Leave aside Fannism, no Pilot will release its BVR without Positive confirmation in Real Life, Which is very difficult at such long range, when you have borders as closed as with Pakistan. It would be only useful over the Sea, or over the Tibet Plateau or in some specific mission, like striking the high value target like AWAACs

3. Costwise it is very difficult to procure in high numbers.

4. Last but not the least, every country only supply the Export variant of the particular missile, which is always lower the par with the original Weapon.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Source based News:
> 
> Meteor UL- BVR missile is offered not only in Rafale Jets but a preliminary customization study is underway and is included in requirements under Super 30 upgrade program (under HAL portion of work).
> MBDA is offering to provide some help in the seeker side of Astra Mk1 and dual pulse version of Astra Mk2.
> Meteor is expected to be added to common pool of IAF weapons along with Astra Mk1.
> Buzz is also there that a new paper detailing MICA NG is being shared. It said new MICA improves sensors, propellants and NEZ considerably.



Couple of things which I don't like, which is happening with the modernization of IAF and INAF is

1. We are going to have 4 different types of AESA in future aka Bars AESA, EL-2052, Zhuk ME AESA for MIG-29K, and with Rafale RBE-2 and that too from different countries, and that too from different OEMs which is going to make us a unique Airforce, with tons of headache and 4 different support, spares and upgradation. LOLZ

2. Same goes with the BVR -- Astra 1/2, Derby ER, R-77, R-23, MICA, Meteor

Baki FGFA is coming with new inventory in future.

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## Agent_47



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## Armani

PARIKRAMA said:


> Source based News:
> 
> Meteor UL- BVR missile is offered not only in Rafale Jets but a preliminary customization study is underway and is included in requirements under Super 30 upgrade program (under HAL portion of work).
> MBDA is offering to provide some help in the seeker side of Astra Mk1 and dual pulse version of Astra Mk2.
> Meteor is expected to be added to common pool of IAF weapons along with Astra Mk1.
> Buzz is also there that a new paper detailing MICA NG is being shared. It said new MICA improves sensors, propellants and NEZ considerably.



Sir, I have heard that Leonardo-Finmeccanica has a stake in MBDA (not controlling stake, but about 25% shares are held). Will this not effect dealings with them?

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## PARIKRAMA

Armani said:


> Sir, I have heard that Leonardo-Finmeccanica has a stake in MBDA (not controlling stake, but about 25% shares are held). Will this not effect dealings with them?



No sir pls,

That's an investment which is not strategic in nature and Leo is looking at every opportunity to sell it off at premium.

Here is a link
http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=5498711

This provides more information on Leo investment and exit point news.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/762581184052359168

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## Blue Marlin

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/762581184052359168


dassault tries very hard to ensure the rafale is not mistaken for the israeli defence frim. as a large number of potentail client are middle eastern



Armani said:


> Sir, I have heard that Leonardo-Finmeccanica has a stake in MBDA (not controlling stake, but about 25% shares are held). Will this not effect dealings with them?


its as british as it is french then its italy

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## BON PLAN

PARIKRAMA said:


> Meteor may happen as its set to be inducted to common pool once super 30 config is done.. Brimestone will be replaced by AASM Hammer family I guess.. not sure if we take it unless MBDA gives us again something lucrative to cut the deal.





PARIKRAMA said:


> Meteor may happen as its set to be inducted to common pool once super 30 config is done.. Brimestone will be replaced by AASM Hammer family I guess.. not sure if we take it unless MBDA gives us again something lucrative to cut the deal.


AASM and Brimestone are complementary more than direct competitors. Brimestone is lighter, shorter range, with less collateral dammage I think.
I hope Brimestone to be integrated on Rafale.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy 
First Official Word that Negotiations are completed. 

Rafale Deal 

As per the India-France Joint Statement issued by the two countries during the Prime Minister’s visit to France, Government of India conveyed to the Government of France that in view of the critical operational necessity for Multirole Combat Aircraft for Indian Air Force (IAF), Government of India would like to acquire 36 Rafale jet in fly-away condition. Both the sides also agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) for supply of the aircraft. A Negotiating Team was constituted to negotiate the terms and conditions of the procurement of 36 Rafale jets and recommend a draft agreement.


"" The Negotiating Team has submitted its Report which is under examination in Government. ""

The Government constantly reviews the security environment and ensures that the Indian Air Force (IAF) is fully equipped to meet the security challenges. The IAF undertakes the process of modernization of its fleet by procurement and upgradation of aircraft. The operational strength of the IAF is being augmented by these measures. 

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shrimati Ranjanben Bhatt and others in Lok Sabha today. 

****


NAMPI/RK
(Release ID :148821)

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## Stephen Cohen

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy
> First Official Word that Negotiations are completed.
> 
> Rafale Deal
> 
> As per the India-France Joint Statement issued by the two countries during the Prime Minister’s visit to France, Government of India conveyed to the Government of France that in view of the critical operational necessity for Multirole Combat Aircraft for Indian Air Force (IAF), Government of India would like to acquire 36 Rafale jet in fly-away condition. Both the sides also agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) for supply of the aircraft. A Negotiating Team was constituted to negotiate the terms and conditions of the procurement of 36 Rafale jets and recommend a draft agreement.
> 
> 
> "" The Negotiating Team has submitted its Report which is under examination in Government. ""
> 
> The Government constantly reviews the security environment and ensures that the Indian Air Force (IAF) is fully equipped to meet the security challenges. The IAF undertakes the process of modernization of its fleet by procurement and upgradation of aircraft. The operational strength of the IAF is being augmented by these measures.
> 
> This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shrimati Ranjanben Bhatt and others in Lok Sabha today.
> 
> ****
> 
> 
> NAMPI/RK
> (Release ID :148821)



MANY MANY MANY Thanks

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...rt-dac-to-take-it-up-soon-116081201389_1.html

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...submits-final-report/articleshow/53671494.cms

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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> " *The Negotiating Team has submitted its Report which is under examination in Government. *""



See i said this again and again and again






https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-284#post-8490532

and
on July 27th







https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-288#post-8510478


@Vergennes @Taygibay @MilSpec @SpArK @Abingdonboy @anant_s @BON PLAN 

Soon we will finally uncork the french wine bottles

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## lover

SOURCE : TOI 
*





NEW DELHI: The defence ministry’s top acquisition council is likely to take up this month the final report submitted by a team negotiating the much-anticipated Rafale fighter jet deal with France.*

*The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), chaired by defence minister Manohar Parrikar, is likely to meet on August 18.*

*The Council had last month reviewed the multi-billion Euro Rafale deal and directed the Indian negotiating team to submit its report “expeditiously”.*

*“The negotiating team has submitted its report, which is under examination,” the minister said in a written reply to the Lok Sabha on Friday.*

*During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract.*
*
Soon after the announcement, the defence ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.

The new deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets.

The commercial negotiations on the pricing of the planes, equipment and other issues began in mid-January this year.
http://www.indiandaily.in/rafale-deal-negotiating-team-submits-final-report/*

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## PARIKRAMA

Posted by @Ankit Kumar 002 in Rafale sticky

@waz @WebMaster @Irfan Baloch @WAJsal 
Kindly merge this thread with Rafale sticky

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## lover

*Rafale deal: Negotiating team submits final report*
*
NEW DELHI: The defence ministry’s top acquisition council is likely to take up this month the final report submitted by a team negotiating the much-anticipated Rafale fighter jet deal with France.

The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), chaired by defence minister Manohar Parrikar, is likely to meet on August 18.

The Council had last month reviewed the multi-billion Euro Rafale deal and directed the Indian negotiating team to submit its report “expeditiously”.

“The negotiating team has submitted its report, which is under examination,” the minister said in a written reply to the Lok Sabha on Friday.

During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract.

Soon after the announcement, the defence ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.

The new deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets.

The commercial negotiations on the pricing of the planes, equipment and other issues began in mid-January this year.

http://www.indiandaily.in/rafale-deal-negotiating-team-submits-final-report/

*

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## Crixus

@PARIKRAMA sir when you think they will sign the final deal

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## punit

please sign the deal .. kam se kam mere bachhe to Iska Muh dekh lenge !

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## PARIKRAMA

Crixus said:


> @PARIKRAMA sir when you think they will sign the final deal


No sir pls..

We should see the following steps - within this month DAC and CCS giving approval and then in another 30 days we should see French side in India to sign IGA and formal contracts. Then confirmation payment by Q3/Q4
So you can count around max 60 days or less may be around 45-50 days for whole process to be over with

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## Crixus

I right Sir just to highlight your knowledge in the subject nothing else  So by 2017 the deal will be complete and we can see by 2020 these birds in India


PARIKRAMA said:


> No sir pls..
> 
> We should see the following steps - within this month DAC and CCS giving approval and then in another 30 days we should see French side in India to sign IGA and formal contracts. Then confirmation payment by Q3/Q4
> So you can count around max 60 days or less may be around 45-50 days for whole process to be over with

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## PARIKRAMA

Crixus said:


> I right Sir just to highlight your knowledge in the subject nothing else  So by 2017 the deal will be complete and we can see by 2020 these birds in India


If the original plan is true then delivery should get over within 36 months from the time of deal being signed as its a "priority" order to meet our numbers requirement on urgent basis.
What i have always heard is Indian Rafale work is partly being kept ready in order to first boost the number of Rafales produced per month higher and second to meet the tight deadline schedule.

unless India have changed the "priority" status we should see all Raffys by 2020 surely

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## Crixus

May be I am wrong but BJP govt will try very hard to at least receive some planes before 2019 election as these aircrafts have positive impact on lot of young Indians 



PARIKRAMA said:


> If the original plan is true then delivery should get over within 36 months from the time of deal being signed as its a "priority" order to meet our numbers requirement on urgent basis.
> What i have always heard is Indian Rafale work is partly being kept ready in order to first boost the number of Rafales produced per month higher and second to meet the tight deadline schedule.
> 
> unless India have changed the "priority" status we should see all Raffys by 2020 surely

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## CNL-PN-AA

PARIKRAMA said:


> If the original plan is true then delivery should get over within 36 months from the time of deal being signed as its a "priority" order to meet our numbers requirement on urgent basis.
> What i have always heard is Indian Rafale work is partly being kept ready in order to first boost the number of Rafales produced per month higher and second to meet the tight deadline schedule.
> 
> unless India have changed the "priority" status we should see all Raffys by 2020 surely



That is what I said in january on another forum: all Rafales built in France delivered to India by end 2019/ very beginning 2020.

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> If the original plan is true then delivery should get over within 36 months from the time of deal being signed as its a "priority" order to meet our numbers requirement on urgent basis.
> What i have always heard is Indian Rafale work is partly being kept ready in order to first boost the number of Rafales produced per month higher and second to meet the tight deadline schedule.
> 
> unless India have changed the "priority" status we should see all Raffys by 2020 surely


What about the off the shelt Rafale-M orders for the navy bro, any news/info on them? When will/can they be in service? 

+ What are the chances the IAF exercises the follow-on clause for off the shelf Rafales over and above this 36 whilst the MII line is being set up?

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## sathya

What standard of rafale we ve agreed to ?


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## PARIKRAMA

CNL-PN-AA said:


> That is what I said in january on another forum: all Rafales built in France delivered to India by end 2019/ very beginning 2020.


Welcome here CNL... Good to see you here..

I hope you get your professional tags...Pls have a discussion with @WebMaster 

@Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @halloweene - Another French joined us here
Our Friend is an Aeronautical Engineer and a ex pilot Mirage 2000.. If i remember in a good healthy position as well... You folks can cross check in Private Conversation and if known already it would be great if an introduction can be provided to the webby bro. I am requesting CNL to put his introduction as well..


@CNL-PN-AA 
Please add your introduction here below in this thread.
https://defence.pk/threads/new-introductions.333336/page-57

Hope to see your active contributions here as well.

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## kaykay

So marathon negotiations have finally ended....

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> What about the off the shelt Rafale-M orders for the navy bro, any news/info on them? When will/can they be in service?
> 
> + What are the chances the IAF exercises the follow-on clause for off the shelf Rafales over and above this 36 whilst the MII line is being set up?



Rafale Ms will come bro too..It wont be clubbed priority order so we should see it around 2021+. It is imperative that IAC2 plan needs to finalise for Rafale Ms. And high chances are that the entire wing may be ordered from Merignac line only. 

Assuming Rafale MII order to be concluded by March 2017, it will take 3 years for the assembly line setup implying March 2020 for setup to complete. Add 6 months slack time for any delays so its 2021. The Rafale being assembled from kits initially should come out of the plant by end 2021 or more like 2022 as initial assembling should see challenges or teething issues. So 2022 is a better date to realise MII fruits.

Now if all planes are delivered by 2020 there is a gap of 2 years easily between last off the shelf delivery and MII line first plane out. So, I expect them to order another 18 around 2019 timeline right before the elections (uptill code of conduct kicks in and no new fresh procurement can be done) or after the elections.

Off Topic but One thing is clear, NDA will want maximum order to be concluded before elections hit India and take it from me, the fear psychosis of Rafales In IAF adversaries and the views of IAF and demands by IN for Rafale M will be used as a major tool in their planned election speeches.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

CNL-PN-AA said:


> That is what I said in january on another forum: all Rafales built in France delivered to India by end 2019/ very beginning 2020.


Please CNL-PN-AA, give us some more informations on the Rafale Qatar configuration because it could be easily available for India.

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## BON PLAN

CNL-PN-AA said:


> That is what I said in january on another forum: all Rafales built in France delivered to India by end 2019/ very beginning 2020.


Are you sure? Don't forget the 24 for Qatar, to be delivered from 2018 at a 1/month rate.
I know that some are already on production (and 1 already in flight testing), but it's not enough no?



PARIKRAMA said:


> Rafale Ms will come bro too..It wont be clubbed priority order so we should see it around 2021+. It is imperative that IAC2 plan needs to finalise for Rafale Ms. And high chances are that the entire wing may be ordered from Merignac line only.
> 
> Assuming Rafale MII order to be concluded by March 2017, it will take 3 years for the assembly line setup implying March 2020 for setup to complete. Add 6 months slack time for any delays so its 2021. The Rafale being assembled from kits initially should come out of the plant by end 2021 or more like 2022 as initial assembling should see challenges or teething issues. So 2022 is a better date to realise MII fruits.
> 
> Now if all planes are delivered by 2020 there is a gap of 2 years easily between last off the shelf delivery and MII line first plane out. So, I expect them to order another 18 around 2019 timeline right before the elections (uptill code of conduct kicks in and no new fresh procurement can be done) or after the elections.
> 
> Off Topic but One thing is clear, NDA will want maximum order to be concluded before elections hit India and take it from me, the fear psychosis of Rafales In IAF adversaries and the views of IAF and demands by IN for Rafale M will be used as a major tool in their planned election speeches.


Why the Rafale M can't be made by the (possible) indian line? Too much needs from IAF so no space for navy planes?

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## PARIKRAMA

BON PLAN said:


> Why the Rafale M can't be made by the (possible) indian line? Too much needs from IAF so no space for navy planes?



Yes priority is with IAF to begin with. Secondly, Rafale M requirements urgency will overlap with IAF numbers in the timeline 2022-27 when IAC2 is planned.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

*French Rafale is best at dogfight*
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-is-best-at-dogfight/articleshow/7478968.cms?


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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> *French Rafale is best at dogfight*
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-is-best-at-dogfight/articleshow/7478968.cms?


Whoa 

Blast from the past 

Thats from Feb 2011 time.. No doubt it showed its capabilities but from 2011 to present day and future ones which we will get, the gap will only increase.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/764404233219239936

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## GuardianRED

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/764404233219239936


can anyone explain the significates of the FLIR pics, from the looks of it the Rafale is low Viz


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## PARIKRAMA

*FORWARD LOOKING INFRARED (FLIR)*

Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) is a night vision enhancement system with many potential applications in law enforcement agencies.
FLIR systems offer vision enhancement superior to that available through conventional night vision systems.
Originally developed for military operations, FLIR systems have a wide variety of applications for law enforcement, fire fighting, governmental and commercial/ industrial operations.
*WHAT IS FLIR?*

FLIR was originally developed by the United States Navy to assist in the identification and targeting of opposition forces.
*FLIR units measure the amount of infrared energy emitted by various objects and life forms. In other words, it allows the user to “see” the amount of heat (or thermal energy) an object emits. *
*Infrared energy is normally invisible to the human eye, but FLIR systems are able to detect and interpret emissions and provide the user with an image, even in complete darkness.*
Like conventional night vision enhancement systems, FLIR does not provide a perfect picture of what is in its field of view. What it does provide is an image with sufficient clarity to allow users to distinguish between cars, trees, and people.
Conventional night vision systems improve the user’s ability to “see” objects by enhancing visible light. These systems only work if there is at least a minimal amount of available light and if there is nothing obscuring visibility (such as dust, haze, fog, or smoke).
FLIR systems are still highly effective under conditions of low-visibility or complete darkness. By providing an image of the infrared energy being emitted by objects, the system can still “see” in complete darkness or obscured visibility.
While the effectiveness of the system may be diminished when viewing distant objects under obscured conditions, FLIR still provide better visibility than other night vision enhancement systems.
Because it measures thermal energy, FLIR can be used to conduct surveillance without relying on search lights or special lighting, improving the user’s ability to remain undetected.
Some images to showcase FLIR ability to distinguish and understand what it showcases













As you see its the heat emissions from the VTOL F35 shows the high emissions in the above picture.





A normal F35 flying through the sky, lets see via FLIR then






As you see the FLIR shows that emissions of F35 invisible to our eyes is far more and the thermal signature is almost engulfing the entire aircraft


Compare it with














This is Rafale

What it showcases is the cooling effect and how the exhaust is planned well for Rafale. Due to sound cooling system and well planned layout the fuselage is also not showing high temperature like EFs and yet its exhaust signature is better than F22












The above picture shows how dual cooling channel of M88 engine reduces the thermal effect and how it reduces the heat signature in the exhaust system by cooling it

Compare it with EF EJ200 engine above where it shows a single cooling channel and high TWR resulting in the engine exhaust and fuselage glowing IR signature.


In Short Stealth is over hyped and there are many other ways of taking down the stealth aspect of such planes

@Vergennes @MilSpec @Taygibay @AUSTERLITZ @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @SpArK

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> *FORWARD LOOKING INFRARED (FLIR)*
> 
> Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) is a night vision enhancement system with many potential applications in law enforcement agencies.
> FLIR systems offer vision enhancement superior to that available through conventional night vision systems.
> Originally developed for military operations, FLIR systems have a wide variety of applications for law enforcement, fire fighting, governmental and commercial/ industrial operations.
> *WHAT IS FLIR?*
> 
> FLIR was originally developed by the United States Navy to assist in the identification and targeting of opposition forces.
> *FLIR units measure the amount of infrared energy emitted by various objects and life forms. In other words, it allows the user to “see” the amount of heat (or thermal energy) an object emits. *
> *Infrared energy is normally invisible to the human eye, but FLIR systems are able to detect and interpret emissions and provide the user with an image, even in complete darkness.*
> Like conventional night vision enhancement systems, FLIR does not provide a perfect picture of what is in its field of view. What it does provide is an image with sufficient clarity to allow users to distinguish between cars, trees, and people.
> Conventional night vision systems improve the user’s ability to “see” objects by enhancing visible light. These systems only work if there is at least a minimal amount of available light and if there is nothing obscuring visibility (such as dust, haze, fog, or smoke).
> FLIR systems are still highly effective under conditions of low-visibility or complete darkness. By providing an image of the infrared energy being emitted by objects, the system can still “see” in complete darkness or obscured visibility.
> While the effectiveness of the system may be diminished when viewing distant objects under obscured conditions, FLIR still provide better visibility than other night vision enhancement systems.
> Because it measures thermal energy, FLIR can be used to conduct surveillance without relying on search lights or special lighting, improving the user’s ability to remain undetected.
> Some images to showcase FLIR ability to distinguish and understand what it showcases
> 
> View attachment 325638
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 325639
> 
> 
> As you see its the heat emissions from the VTOL F35 shows the high emissions in the above picture.
> 
> View attachment 325640
> 
> A normal F35 flying through the sky, lets see via FLIR then
> 
> View attachment 325641
> 
> 
> As you see the FLIR shows that emissions of F35 invisible to our eyes is far more and the thermal signature is almost engulfing the entire aircraft
> 
> 
> Compare it with
> View attachment 325646
> 
> 
> View attachment 325648
> 
> 
> View attachment 325651
> 
> This is Rafale
> 
> What it showcases is the cooling effect and how the exhaust is planned well for Rafale. Due to sound cooling system and well planned layout the fuselage is also not showing high temperature like EFs and yet its exhaust signature is better than F22
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above picture shows how dual cooling channel of M88 engine reduces the thermal effect and how it reduces the heat signature in the exhaust system by cooling it
> 
> Compare it with EF EJ200 engine above where it shows a single cooling channel and high TWR resulting in the engine exhaust and fuselage glowing IR signature.
> 
> 
> In Short Stealth is over hyped and there are many other ways of taking down the stealth aspect of such planes


Nnniiccee!! That explains a lot !! Can u give a range for FLIR

Someone give him positive ratings

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## PARIKRAMA

GuardianRED said:


> Nnniiccee!! That explains a lot !! Can u give a range for FLIR
> 
> Someone give him positive ratings


Basically the operation are in between three ranges known as

Long Wave IR Region - wavelenth of 8-12 Micro meter
Medium Wave IR region - wavelength 3-5 micro meter
Short Wave IR - wavelength 0.9-1.7 micro meter

The LWIR suffers from energy being absorbed and lost due to atmosphere scattering and 100% absorption by water.. So technology has increased the cost to artificially cool the sensor apparatus (cryogenically).

The MWIR actually suffers less of absorption and scattering effect and gives far better result with such cooling solutions but increases the cost aspect of more complex apparatus.

SWIR basically is used in uncooled systems. Also it uses Glass whereas MWIR and LWIR uses Germanium and Sapphire as sensor materials

The key points of differentiation among the apparatus utilizing these Wave regions are

Size
Weight
Power
Sensitivity Resolution
Signal to Noise ratio
Basically FLIR are part of a much larger system called IRST (Infra Red Search and Track). As the name suggests it does

Large search volume;
Autonomous and designated tracking of distant targets;
Highly accurate multiple-target tracking;
FLIR imaging;
High-definition TV imaging. etc
In such a system LWIR is used for finding cooled surfaces typically front portion or nose section of the incoming bogey or body heat from a side angle while MWIR focuses on the thermal signature of Jet Engines, Fuselage, or excessive heat radiated etc.

A simple figure to understand this





Rafale has the system called OSF comprising of FLIR and a video camera. OSF became famous when Rafale simulated kills of F22 got released in public domain. The range at best defined is
_
Thomson-CSF Optronique says exact performance details of the FSO are classified, but it is understood that, at 20,000ft (6,100m), for example, in air-to-air mode, the system will have an infrared detection capability of about 70nm (130km), or 60nm at low altitude, while laser ranging will be possible to 12nm._

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/tests-begin-on-rafale-optronics-50879/

Quite simply
FLIR IR detection is around 100-130 km in high altitude and around 100 km max in low altitude
Laser Range finder is around 22 km (40 km according to wikipedia)

In true sense MWIR should be around 40-50 km from where the recognition of aircraft should be possible.

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## SR-91

PARIKRAMA said:


> Assuming Rafale MII order to be concluded by March 2017, it will take 3 years for the assembly line setup implying March 2020 for setup to complete. Add 6 months slack time for any delays so its 2021 .




Yaar, didn't they start building the infrastructure for Rafales a while back. I thought they would be ready to start delivering MII Rafales by 2018/2019.

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## R!CK

PARIKRAMA said:


> *FORWARD LOOKING INFRARED (FLIR)*
> 
> Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) is a night vision enhancement system with many potential applications in law enforcement agencies.
> FLIR systems offer vision enhancement superior to that available through conventional night vision systems.
> Originally developed for military operations, FLIR systems have a wide variety of applications for law enforcement, fire fighting, governmental and commercial/ industrial operations.
> *WHAT IS FLIR?*
> 
> FLIR was originally developed by the United States Navy to assist in the identification and targeting of opposition forces.
> *FLIR units measure the amount of infrared energy emitted by various objects and life forms. In other words, it allows the user to “see” the amount of heat (or thermal energy) an object emits. *
> *Infrared energy is normally invisible to the human eye, but FLIR systems are able to detect and interpret emissions and provide the user with an image, even in complete darkness.*
> Like conventional night vision enhancement systems, FLIR does not provide a perfect picture of what is in its field of view. What it does provide is an image with sufficient clarity to allow users to distinguish between cars, trees, and people.
> Conventional night vision systems improve the user’s ability to “see” objects by enhancing visible light. These systems only work if there is at least a minimal amount of available light and if there is nothing obscuring visibility (such as dust, haze, fog, or smoke).
> FLIR systems are still highly effective under conditions of low-visibility or complete darkness. By providing an image of the infrared energy being emitted by objects, the system can still “see” in complete darkness or obscured visibility.
> While the effectiveness of the system may be diminished when viewing distant objects under obscured conditions, FLIR still provide better visibility than other night vision enhancement systems.
> Because it measures thermal energy, FLIR can be used to conduct surveillance without relying on search lights or special lighting, improving the user’s ability to remain undetected.
> Some images to showcase FLIR ability to distinguish and understand what it showcases
> 
> View attachment 325638
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 325639
> 
> 
> As you see its the heat emissions from the VTOL F35 shows the high emissions in the above picture.
> 
> View attachment 325640
> 
> A normal F35 flying through the sky, lets see via FLIR then
> 
> View attachment 325641
> 
> 
> As you see the FLIR shows that emissions of F35 invisible to our eyes is far more and the thermal signature is almost engulfing the entire aircraft
> 
> 
> Compare it with
> View attachment 325646
> 
> 
> View attachment 325648
> 
> 
> View attachment 325651
> 
> This is Rafale
> 
> What it showcases is the cooling effect and how the exhaust is planned well for Rafale. Due to sound cooling system and well planned layout the fuselage is also not showing high temperature like EFs and yet its exhaust signature is better than F22
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above picture shows how dual cooling channel of M88 engine reduces the thermal effect and how it reduces the heat signature in the exhaust system by cooling it
> 
> Compare it with EF EJ200 engine above where it shows a single cooling channel and high TWR resulting in the engine exhaust and fuselage glowing IR signature.
> 
> 
> In Short Stealth is over hyped and there are many other ways of taking down the stealth aspect of such planes
> 
> @Vergennes @MilSpec @Taygibay @AUSTERLITZ @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @SpArK



Beautiful Post. Truly outstanding work!

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## PARIKRAMA

SR-91 said:


> Yaar, didn't they start building the infrastructure for Rafales a while back. I thought they would be ready to start delivering MII Rafales by 2018/2019.


Not all planes of 36 numbers can be kept ready as that would be a much bigger gamble... The leadtime work is substantial... so in a way with our side signing the contract and releasing the money in Q3/Q4, its good enough that first jet may be handed from either 2017 end or 2018 beginning for continuous delivery of jets with increased productivity. Other customers are having much longer wait except Egypt who got a clean path of delivery being first to order.

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## BON PLAN

SR-91 said:


> Yaar, didn't they start building the infrastructure for Rafales a while back. I thought they would be ready to start delivering MII Rafales by 2018/2019.


The cost is too high. No pre building before a firmed contract.

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Please CNL-PN-AA, give us some more informations on the Rafale Qatar configuration because it could be easily available for India.



He told me something about that already, but I don't know if I should post it.

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## randomradio

SR-91 said:


> Yaar, didn't they start building the infrastructure for Rafales a while back. I thought they would be ready to start delivering MII Rafales by 2018/2019.



For assembly, you don't need a lot of infrastructure. Production will happen only post 2020.

MII negotiations have not even started, heck the strategic partnership clauses in DPP are still not done. So nothing will happen until DPP is completely ready and a jet is chosen.

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## Grevion

Is today is the day for the DAC meeting?

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## [Bregs]

Any latest news regrading this cursed but keenly awaited deal ?

@PARIKRAMA

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## Ankit Kumar 002

[Bregs] said:


> Any latest news regrading this cursed but keenly awaited deal ?
> 
> @PARIKRAMA





litefire said:


> Is today is the day for the DAC meeting?



US Airforce Secretary is on a visit this month , I personally don't think anything will be announced , for Rafale .... may be a few more articles on F-Sola

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## BON PLAN

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> US Airforce Secretary is on a visit this month , I personally don't think anything will be announced , for Rafale .... may be a few more articles on F-Sola


F-SOLA : what's that?

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## [Bregs]

BON PLAN said:


> F-SOLA : what's that?



lol he means again that talk abt f16 which was rejected 7 yrs back

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## Grevion

BON PLAN said:


> F-SOLA : what's that?


Sola means 16 in Hindi.

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## nang2

litefire said:


> Sola means 16 in Hindi.


haha, that is interesting.

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## BON PLAN

nang2 said:


> haha, that is interesting.


In some dozen years we will all speak indi thanks to you .....

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## [Bregs]

looks like only 1 aircraft has been cleared by DAC that too transport plan, no news regarding Rafale deal

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## Abingdonboy

[Bregs] said:


> looks like only 1 aircraft has been cleared by DAC that too transport plan, no news regarding Rafale deal


Meh, the DAC meets fortnightly under this GoI/DM, I'm not too concerned when we all know the Rafale is moving to completion rather swiftly now. The remaining hurdles are procedural (DAC and CCS clearance) and can be granted in a matter of weeks if the PM so wishes.

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## nang2

BON PLAN said:


> In some dozen years we will all speak indi thanks to you .....


I am not that optimistic. Maybe in sola years.

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## Crixus

I think after dozen years we will start speaking half French and you will start speaking other Half Indi (Hindi) 


BON PLAN said:


> In some dozen years we will all speak indi thanks to you .....

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## proud indian94

*Govt seeks 134 million euro waiver from France for Rafale deal*

HT Correspondent, Hindustan Times, New Delhi|
Updated: Aug 20, 2016 00:26 IST






*In this file photo, a Dassault Rafale fighter jet takes part in a flying display during the 49th Paris Air Show.*


As the NDA government inches toward closing the multi-billion euro Rafale fighter deal, New Delhi has sought a waiver from a key provision that requires India to shell out an advance guarantee.

If France accepts the Indian demand, it will result in a saving of more than euro 134 million, South Block sources said on Friday.

The deal for 36 Rafale warplanes is expected to be worth around euro 7.3 billion.

The sources said the deal was stuck as India had put its foot down on doing away with the advance guarantee clause as it was a government-to-government sale. The sources said defence minister Manohar Parrikar has conveyed the Indian position on the issue to French authorities through diplomatic channels on Thursday. It is learnt all other issues have been resolved.

Last week, Parrikar informed Lok Sabha that the team negotiating the deal to buy the French fighters, manufactured by Dassault Aviation, had submitted its final report to the government.

A favourable response from France to the Indian proposal could see the deal being sent to finance ministry in the coming days, the sources confirmed. Finance ministry clearance will pave the way for final approval by the Cabinet Committee on Security, headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

The deal is crucial for the Indian Air Force which is grappling with a significant drawdown of its fighter fleet. The IAF has a 33 fighter squadrons – each consisting of 18 fighter planes, but it requires 45 combat units to counter a combined threat from China and Pakistan. The IAF admits it does not have sufficient number of warplanes to fight a two-front war.

The plan was to buy 126 fighter planes but the Centre scrapped that deal, opting to buy 36 jets in fly-away condition from France. The new deal was announced by Modi during a visit to Paris last yea

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## randomradio

134M euro advance guarantee would mean the contract price is 6.7B euros.

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## PARIKRAMA

randomradio said:


> 134M euro advance guarantee would mean the contract price is 6.7B euros.


Assuming they asked for 2% BG rate and no other charges are added.. Yes the amount should be Euro 6.7 Bn or ~ $ 7.5Bn .. Thats what we all are saying , a good price for complete package

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## [Bregs]

now lets us wait and hope french blinks in neat future

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Assuming they asked for 2% BG rate and no other charges are added.. Yes the amount should be Euro 6.7 Bn or ~ $ 7.5Bn .. Thats what we all are saying , a good price for complete package


As usual your predictions turn out to be correct bro!

Latest updates? Still looking at Q3 contract signature?

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> As usual your predictions turn out to be correct bro!
> 
> Latest updates? Still looking at Q3 contract signature?



Could happen in a month also.

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> As usual your predictions turn out to be correct bro!
> 
> Latest updates? Still looking at Q3 contract signature?


Finance ministry clearance note should be there to CCS in coming days so I am expecting next CCS to feature it at least. We might hear an abrupt DAC meeting and clearance so that CCS can formally clear it.
Then as I said formal agreement will be there when French team comes here. So we should see action in max next 45 days, down from 60 earlier..contract release amount will be Q3 and may be Q4.

I am guessing DM MP will be very pleased with the final package contours as the efforts of NSA Doval and DM MP will bring a strategic shift in IAF capabilities for years and decades to come.. once MII Strategic Partnership is revealed and it's done then it will be awesome.. add to it IN potential gamechanger

Oh a small news.. Dassault questioned the MOD of financial capability of Reliance Defence aerospace divison as Anil Ambani groups financial numbers are a worry. So DA wishes to have a strong partner or a solid backing of Reliance Defence company or a consortium. Murmurs are there that Tata is being looked at but it's very initial snippet. Chances are high that a government backed company or a group of company will finally get the nod.

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> So we should see action in max next 45 days, down from 60 earlier..contract release amount will be Q3 and may be Q4.



The first payment should happen within 30 days of signature.

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## [Bregs]

PARIKRAMA said:


> Finance ministry clearance note should be there to CCS in coming days so I am expecting next CCS to feature it at least. We might hear an abrupt DAC meeting and clearance so that CCS can formally clear it.
> Then as I said formal agreement will be there when French team comes here. So we should see action in max next 45 days, down from 60 earlier..contract release amount will be Q3 and may be Q4.
> 
> I am guessing DM MP will be very pleased with the final package contours as the efforts of NSA Doval and DM MP will bring a strategic shift in IAF capabilities for years and decades to come.. once MII Strategic Partnership is revealed and it's done then it will be awesome.. add to it IN potential gamechanger
> 
> Oh a small news.. Dassault questioned the MOD of financial capability of Reliance Defence aerospace divison as Anil Ambani groups financial numbers are a worry. So DA wishes to have a strong partner or a solid backing of Reliance Defence company or a consortium. Murmurs are there that Tata is being looked at but it's very initial snippet. Chances are high that a government backed company or a group of company will finally get the nod.




The ambanis are not trustable in clean deals neither the anil ambani has financial clout now wo sustain such a crucial MII project, Tatas have deeper pockets and sound ethics too as compared to Ambanis

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## Ankit Kumar 002

[Bregs] said:


> The ambanis are not trustable in clean deals neither the anil ambani has financial clout now wo sustain such a crucial MII project, Tatas have deeper pockets and sound ethics too as compared to Ambanis




Sadly 

TATA<====>Boeing<=====>90 MII aircraft ...

M&M will be partnering many French firms for many programs here... would be a better partner than Reliance.

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## Agent_47

The government of Prime Minister Narendra Modi inches closer to securing a deal for 36 Dassault Rafale elite stealth fighter jets with France in an exchange that is expected to be worth $8.3 billion according to defense industry analysts. *The final condition that the two countries must work out is a waiver provision, demanded by India, to avoid paying a deposit of $152 million to secure the contract.*

Sources with India’s Hindustan Timessuggest that a *deal has already been struck "as India had put its foot down on doing away with the advance guarantee clause as it was a government-to-government sale" with France trusting that the New Delhi government had more than enough reserves to back the exchange. *

The newspaper’s sources indicate that India’s Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar conveyed the country’s position regarding the need to waive the deposit clause via diplomatic channels to France on Thursday. *It appears that Paris did not object to the condition and no other issues existed in the deal.*

The news comes after the defense minister informed Lok Sabha (the lower chamber of the Indian parliament) that a team was negotiating to buy the French fighter jets manufactured by Dassault Aviation and that the team of negotiators had *submitted their final report in favor of the acquisition.*

*The deal will not become complete, however, until India sends an agreement-in-principle to the finance minister who must first provide clearance on any transfer of state funds. Subsequently, the deal will be sent to the Cabinet Committee on Security, headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi where it will await final confirmation before entering into force.*

http://sputniknews.com/military/201...&utm_content=bX8p&utm_campaign=URL_shortening

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## Picdelamirand-oil

So now it's only administrative time. Indian administrative time!

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## [Bregs]

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> So now it's only administrative time. Indian administrative time!



lol

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> So now it's only administrative time. Indian administrative time!



That can be fastest in the world or slowest in the world, depending on its importance.

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## zebra7

[Bregs] said:


> The ambanis are not trustable in clean deals neither the anil ambani has financial clout now wo sustain such a crucial MII project, Tatas have deeper pockets and sound ethics too as compared to Ambanis



AGREED

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## Gregor Clegane

Who knows how much it will cost!


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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Oh a small news.. Dassault questioned the MOD of financial capability of Reliance Defence aerospace divison as Anil Ambani groups financial numbers are a worry. So DA wishes to have a strong partner or a solid backing of Reliance Defence company or a consortium. Murmurs are there that Tata is being looked at but it's very initial snippet. Chances are high that a government backed company or a group of company will finally get the nod.


I've been skeptical of Reliance's involvement from the outset but thought it DA conducted their due dilligence and cleared a JV with Reliance then it wasn't a concern. But now if DA are questioning Reliance's involvement in the MII then one should be worried.

TATA seems out (close ties with American defence OEMs) so M&M and L&T can be brought in but PLEASE not a PSU, the whole point is to create an Indian Boeing, not another HAL.

Surely this adds quite a bit of time to the MII talks as finding a suitable Indian production agency is going to take a while and the entire MII process is highly dependant on this aspect. 


Once again, please please not a PSU, that simply doesn't fit with Make in India/Skill India.

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## randomradio

Gregor Clegane said:


> Who knows how much it will cost!



Most likely 7.3B euros. So about $228M per jet.


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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> Most likely 7.3B euros. So about $228M per jet.


Please sir, do not induldge the idiots who would look to come up with a unit price using such a deceiving method (total project cost/number of units), this does NOT give an accurate unit cost at all.

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## proud_indian

Abingdonboy said:


> TATA seems out (close ties with American defence OEMs) so M&M and L&T can be brought in but PLEASE not a PSU, the whole point is to create an Indian Boeing, not another HAL.



Can't it be a trilateral arrangement between DA, HAL and TATA/RELIANCE/L&T/MAHINDRA?

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> Please sir, do not induldge the idiots who would look to come up with a unit price using such a deceiving method (total project cost/number of units), this does NOT give an accurate unit cost at all.



It's okay. The deal will be signed soon and Parrikar will make it a point to give us a peak at the breakup of the cost structure.

Until then these people can have their short-lived fun. It will drown out their voice when the celebration begins.

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## sathya

Even though more than 50 billion dollars are going to spent. Leakage of secrets stresses the basics of having own programs . Like Uttam aesa. Lca. Emb awacs.

Hope rafale brings much on the table.
Thank God deal not done in 
UPA.

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## Blue Marlin

@PARIKRAMA its nearly September, when shall i expect it to be signed for. what would happen if it drags on beyond september or even to october

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## The Eagle

Blue Marlin said:


> @PARIKRAMA its nearly September, when shall i expect it to be signed for. what would happen if it drags on beyond september or even to october



Seems like the case, the latter, as one can think about delay due to last Sub leak as well that may effect the progress. @PARIKRAMA

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## Blue Marlin

The Eagle said:


> Seems like the case, the latter, as one can think about delay due to last Sub leak as well that may effect the progress. @PARIKRAMA


im thinking when will there be a point when the french say "just sign it ! " @Vergennes @Taygibay what do you guys think?
the deal is on the indian side now. for the french its just a game of how many bottles of wine will be used whilst waiting for the deal to be signed?

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## randomradio

Blue Marlin said:


> im thinking when will there be a point when the french say "just sign it ! " @Vergennes @Taygibay what do you guys think?
> the deal is on the indian side now. for the french its just a game of how many bottles of wine will be used whilst waiting for the deal to be signed?



They might defer it for sometime, they will have to double check security of the Rafale deal to the satisfaction of the opposition parties in India.

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## Vergennes

Blue Marlin said:


> im thinking when will there be a point when the french say "just sign it ! " @Vergennes @Taygibay what do you guys think?
> the deal is on the indian side now.


Don't we say "Patience is a virtue" ? 



> for the french its just a game of how many bottles of wine will be used whilst waiting for the deal to be signed?



We had a strategy,it was to make the indians drink much wine so that we sign the deal secretly. But as a french would never resist to wine,we are worried that we may all end up drunk and see our plans fail.  @Nilgiri @PARIKRAMA

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## The Eagle

Blue Marlin said:


> im thinking when will there be a point when the french say "just sign it !



Well, by going through the details and sources, even herein, French was saying the same since the first day but it was Indian side that has been negotiating since that long only to reduce the cost/price and still the ball is at Indian court. 

However, this new leak may effect a bit of more delay in this project including the Money thing so IMO, there will be more delay(s). Just look at 302 pages of this thread alone.

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## Nilgiri

Vergennes said:


> We had a strategy,it was to make the indians drink much wine so that we sign the deal secretly. But as a french would never resist to wine,we are worried that we may all end up drunk and see our plans fail.



I just wish you French somehow taught those snobby Brits a lesson under Napoleon. That was the best chance anyone had in history!

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## PARIKRAMA

@Vergennes - You did get the invite officially for ................. 
If you give out the travel dates or month.. all will then take a sigh of relief .. 

@Blue Marlin

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## Blue Marlin

Vergennes said:


> Don't we say "Patience is a virtue" ?


patience is a virtue, but to much patience is bad for you.



Vergennes said:


> We had a strategy,it was to make the indians drink much wine so that we sign the deal secretly. But as a french would never resist to wine,we are worried that we may all end up drunk and see our plans fail.  @Nilgiri @PARIKRAMA


great thats all we need the french spiking the indians tea or as they call it "chia" no wonder they are slow, slurring their words and doing weird stuff.
look at modi, he's getting handsie with the crown prince.
what have you done. mind you im now starting to think you load are drunk to. remember you asked @PARIKRAMA out on a date? hence why you have the sudden urge to go to india?
@Nilgiri then there will be a cultural "exchange"





heck he's giving the french a bear hug. probably thanking him for the great "tea"






Nilgiri said:


> I just wish you French somehow taught those snobby Brits a lesson under Napoleon. That was the best chance anyone had in history!


thats just rude,

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## Nilgiri

Blue Marlin said:


> @Nilgiri then there will be a cultural "exchange"



Hey its not a full on smooch like Brezhnev/Honecker. Give us a break!

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## Nilgiri

Vergennes said:


> That's pretty difficult when they form a coalition with pretty much all countries of Europe against Napoléon and France.
> @Blue Marlin



Yah but when he was going from strength to strength...and the brits had who?....portugal? 

Fix up iberia, ignore Russia, keep the eye on the prize across the channel 

But he let the first fester, ventured disastorusly into the 2nd and lost hope for the 3rd because of trafalgar. 

Then of course you are going to have a coalition form against you....gotta keep stuff simple and direct

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## Blue Marlin

Vergennes said:


> That's pretty difficult when they form a coalition with pretty much all countries of Europe against Napoléon and France.
> @Blue Marlin


im not a history guy all i now is that we had the world largest empire and had control of a large number of strategic places. such as singapore hk,malaysia and so on.
so yeah i only know we had the world largest empire, im gonna say it again, we had the world largest empire.


Nilgiri said:


> Hey its not a full on smooch like Brezhnev/Honecker. Give us a break!


you keep telling your self that. 
you should do what the french are doing. and spike their tea or chia (im i saying that right? chia)


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## Vergennes

Nilgiri said:


> Yah but when he was going from strength to strength...and the brits had who?....portugal?
> 
> Fix up iberia, ignore Russia, keep the eye on the prize across the channel
> 
> But he let the first fester, ventured disastorusly into the 2nd and lost hope for the 3rd because of trafalgar.
> 
> Then of course you are going to have a coalition form against you....gotta keep stuff simple and direct



@Blue Marlin






No,now they are our allies,we would fight together in case of any wars against us........ But to be honest,I wonder who will backstab the other first.

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## Nilgiri

Blue Marlin said:


> so yeah i only know we had the world largest empire, im gonna say it again, we had the world largest empire.



Oh please....

there are bigger accomplishments to be had






========



Blue Marlin said:


> you should do what the french are doing. and spike their tea or chia (im i saying that right? chia)



CHAI....what kind of british person are you??!?!? Chia...



Vergennes said:


> @Blue Marlin
> 
> View attachment 329351
> 
> 
> No,now they are our allies,we would fight together in case of any wars against us........ But to be honest,I wonder who will backstab the other first.



I see a caption contest in the making....

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## Blue Marlin

Vergennes said:


> @Blue Marlin
> 
> View attachment 329351
> 
> 
> No,now they are our allies,we would fight together in case of any wars against us........ But to be honest,I wonder who will backstab the other first.


mind you were like bros now so........ meh, the past is the past and lets not get beat up on who was bigger than who.



Nilgiri said:


> Oh please....
> 
> there are bigger accomplishments to be had
> CHAI....what kind of british person are you??!?!? Chia...
> 
> 
> 
> I see a caption contest in the making....


i have been to pakistanis and indian houses you know, but its been like a month so i got mixed up a bit.
i love milk tea. they've been coming to mine so its good old yorkshires tea

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## Nilgiri

Blue Marlin said:


> mind you were like bros now so........ meh, the past is the past and lets not get beat up on who was bigger than who.



It has been said quite a few times, that one Frenchman invaded Britain in 1066....and Britain never got invaded again 



Blue Marlin said:


> i have been to pakistanis and indian houses you know, but its been like a month so i got mixed up a bit.
> i love milk tea. they've been coming to mine so its good old yorkshires tea



Yah the word comes from the same root as "China" the home of tea...."Chai - na"....easy way to remember hehe.

Good to see British palate is expanding. Though you probably couldnt handle the really sugary powerful stuff in parts of India.

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## Blue Marlin

Nilgiri said:


> It has been said quite a few times, that one Frenchman invaded Britain in 1066....and Britain never got invaded again
> 
> 
> 
> Yah the word comes from the same root as "China" the home of tea...."Chai - na"....easy way to remember hehe.
> 
> Good to see British palate is expanding. Though you probably couldnt handle the really sugary powerful stuff in parts of India.


at first it was very over whelming. when i saw how they were making it.......they were pouring sugar in the pan, pouring sugar. now they have 2 pans one for me with 2 tea spoons of sugar and the "diabetes" version for the rest of them.

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## Nilgiri

Blue Marlin said:


> at first it was very over whelming. when i saw how they were making it.......they were pouring sugar in the pan, pouring sugar. now they have 2 pans one for me with 2 tea spoons of sugar and the "diabetes" version for the rest of them.



Do you like coffee by any chance?


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## Blue Marlin

Nilgiri said:


> Do you like coffee by any chance?


nescafe gold all the way

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## Nilgiri

Blue Marlin said:


> nescafe gold all the way



Ah then, you will appreciate the southern indian culture of preferring coffee over tea (which is the popular beverage in the north).

If you do get the chance, you should try what is known as Madras filter coffee....or Mysore filter coffee or just "Indian filter coffee". There is an ingredient called "chicory" in it that gives it a really nice aroma and special smooth flavour.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_filter_coffee

One of my favourites of all time....an aroma I grew up with since childhood (though strangely I am not addicted/dependent on it).

A good south indian restaurant or traditional family should have it methinks.

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## Blue Marlin

Nilgiri said:


> A good south indian restaurant or traditional family should have it methinks.


i shall keep an eye out for it

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## BON PLAN

Vergennes said:


> No,now they are our allies,we would fight together in case of any wars against us........ But to be honest,I wonder who will backstab the other first


I hope they will remain our allie. Don't forget WW1 and 2 ! 

but this should not make us blind : they are still and even under the influence of the uncle Sam....

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## Ankit Kumar 002

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/769479439973441536


Vergennes said:


> @Blue Marlin
> 
> View attachment 329351
> 
> 
> No,now they are our allies,we would fight together in case of any wars against us........ But to be honest,I wonder who will backstab the other first.



Most likely the first one to back stab both will be US.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Source based news:*

A detailed phone call with specific points of discussion happened between Alexandre Ziegler, Amb France and DM MP.
The points pertained to India's position on the so called Scorpene Documents Theft and preliminary findings.
It was pointed by DM MP that DGA must assure India that such an instance wont happen again for all the defence deals that have happened and are planned for India.
Mr Ziegler informed about officials who will be coming to India soon to present their internal findings and also to talk on this matter.
DM MP said India wont take any haphazard decision but would like to reassure itself that nothing is compromised and India also gets the best deals in the cooperation between the two countries.
The other three points discussed was a delegation for the 100% FDI approval for DCNS, F21 torpedo deal and last was the signing of Rafale Jets deal.
On This DM MP has assured that a suitable date will be worked out for the formal meeting of the sides and sign the pending deal agreements.
In the end DM MP added that since the theft has happened in France, certain reassurances in the form of expediting technology integration planned earlier needs to be done. This will help in creating the self check assurance and confidence among the end users.
Mr Ziegler had assured to discuss the same and all points by DM MP with his seniors and will come back shortly on this....

@Vergennes @Abingdonboy @BON PLAN @Nilgiri @Blue Marlin @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay


Next couple of days will see a lot about India USA relationship and how so called LEMOA will be a game changer as per Indian Media (  )
DM MP will get to hear some positive talks about India's position and good work from US counterparts and how they are eager to help India further ...
Expected to meet some folks who will use Mr Carter to push for their jets under MII
China is expected to officially comment on LEMOA signing with "proceed with caution" approach and will point to ongoing discussion and visits between India and China.
Post DM MP coming back some positive developments and events are planned. Will suitably disclose as the time draws near.

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## Echo_419

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Source based news:*
> 
> A detailed phone call with specific points of discussion happened between Alexandre Ziegler, Amb France and DM MP.
> The points pertained to India's position on the so called Scorpene Documents Theft and preliminary findings.
> It was pointed by DM MP that DGA must assure India that such an instance wont happen again for all the defence deals that have happened and are planned for India.
> Mr Ziegler informed about officials who will be coming to India soon to present their internal findings and also to talk on this matter.
> DM MP said India wont take any haphazard decision but would like to reassure itself that nothing is compromised and India also gets the best deals in the cooperation between the two countries.
> The other three points discussed was a delegation for the 100% FDI approval for DCNS, F21 torpedo deal and last was the signing of Rafale Jets deal.
> On This DM MP has assured that a suitable date will be worked out for the formal meeting of the sides and sign the pending deal agreements.
> In the end DM MP added that since the theft has happened in France, certain reassurances in the form of expediting technology integration planned earlier needs to be done. This will help in creating the self check assurance and confidence among the end users.
> Mr Ziegler had assured to discuss the same and all points by DM MP with his seniors and will come back shortly on this....
> 
> @Vergennes @Abingdonboy @BON PLAN @Nilgiri @Blue Marlin @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay
> 
> 
> Next couple of days will see a lot about India USA relationship and how so called LEMOA will be a game changer as per Indian Media (  )
> DM MP will get to hear some positive talks about India's position and good work from US counterparts and how they are eager to help India further ...
> Expected to meet some folks who will use Mr Carter to push for their jets under MII
> China is expected to officially comment on LEMOA signing with "proceed with caution" approach and will point to ongoing discussion and visits between India and China.
> Post DM MP coming back some positive developments and events are planned. Will suitably disclose as the time draws near.



Under no circumstances we must sign LEMOA

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Echo_419 said:


> Under noes we must sign LEMOA


Hope our dead foreign policy makers take a note about its consequence. This simply means we are giving our men, our money and our land for NATO, ignoring India at each step.

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## Shankranthi

Echo_419 said:


> Under no circumstances we must sign LEMOA



Why ? I am sure it will have an exit clause. If not, we can / should (probably will) insist on it.

Earlier reports had indicated that the agreed upon draft of LEMOA does not grant "automatic" permission for US ships. It will still require GoI permission to dock and replenish. India gets to access US bases close to China. Maybe in Time (not anytime soon) even take over those bases.

It will give us opportunity to expand our operational theatre and make us true Blue water Navy.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Shankranthi said:


> Why ? I am sure it will have an exit clause. If not, we can / should (probably will) insist on it.
> 
> Earlier reports had indicated that the agreed upon draft of LEMOA does not grant "automatic" permission for US ships. It will still require GoI permission to dock and replenish. India gets to access US bases close to China. Maybe in Time (not anytime soon) even take over those bases.
> 
> It will give us opportunity to expand our operational theatre and make us true Blue water Navy.



The only bases which US has near China are the ones in Japan and South Korea , if we ignore a US Army / Air force Garrison in Philippines. 

When US gets numerous Air bases, naval ports by just one signature, India gets non of much importance. 

Just want to point out that it was North Korean Submarine which sank a South Korean Corvette near a joint US base in South Korea when a US resupply ship was nearby , I wonder about utility of this. 

The other ones in Japan , won't it be still a better proposition if we deal directly with Japan ? 

I will have no problem if USA openly declares 100% political support to India over occupied Kashmir. 


Its just USA getting Jupiter full of benefits compared to few clouds on earth India would get.

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## Shankranthi

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> The only bases which US has near China are the ones in Japan and South Korea , if we ignore a US Army / Air force Garrison in Philippines.
> 
> When US gets numerous Air bases, naval ports by just one signature, India gets non of much importance.
> 
> Just want to point out that it was North Korean Submarine which sank a South Korean Corvette near a joint US base in South Korea when a US resupply ship was nearby , I wonder about utility of this.
> 
> The other ones in Japan , won't it be still a better proposition if we deal directly with Japan ?
> 
> I will have no problem if USA openly declares 100% political support to India over occupied Kashmir.
> 
> Its just USA getting Jupiter full of benefits compared to few clouds on earth India would get.



US is unlikely to get much benefit out of this agreement with India. They already operate globally with or without India.

US already have Multiple bases in the M.E and Around China. They have a base in Deigo Garcia which is Bang in the middle of Indian Ocean.

Its better to sign up with the US and get multiple access than individually negotiate with Japan, taiwan, korea etc for bases. This way we can fly under the radar and let US take the chinese heat. 

Its India which need access to bases near China to expand our operations and get operational experience in that part of the globe. This Expands INDIAN Foot print right into Chinese waters. The same way China is expanding int our waters (Gwadar, colombo, djibouti, Mayanmar ) and space.

Sadly this agreement with the US is not even a dynamic Action from India, its just a belated REACTION to Chinese strategy.

You can be sure that India stands to gain much more than we loose in this deal. As a matter of fact its a Win-Win deal for both India and US designed to checkmate china.

PS: Why do you think we have moved tanks into Ladak and Brahmos into Arunachal Pradesh and have pushed for border roads ?

PPS: This is a wrong thread for this discussion.

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## Aero

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Source based news:*
> 
> A detailed phone call with specific points of discussion happened between Alexandre Ziegler, Amb France and DM MP.
> The points pertained to India's position on the so called Scorpene Documents Theft and preliminary findings.
> It was pointed by DM MP that DGA must assure India that such an instance wont happen again for all the defence deals that have happened and are planned for India.
> Mr Ziegler informed about officials who will be coming to India soon to present their internal findings and also to talk on this matter.
> DM MP said India wont take any haphazard decision but would like to reassure itself that nothing is compromised and India also gets the best deals in the cooperation between the two countries.
> The other three points discussed was a delegation for the 100% FDI approval for DCNS, F21 torpedo deal and last was the signing of Rafale Jets deal.
> On This DM MP has assured that a suitable date will be worked out for the formal meeting of the sides and sign the pending deal agreements.
> In the end DM MP added that since the theft has happened in France, certain reassurances in the form of expediting technology integration planned earlier needs to be done. This will help in creating the self check assurance and confidence among the end users.
> Mr Ziegler had assured to discuss the same and all points by DM MP with his seniors and will come back shortly on this....
> 
> @Vergennes @Abingdonboy @BON PLAN @Nilgiri @Blue Marlin @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay
> 
> 
> Next couple of days will see a lot about India USA relationship and how so called LEMOA will be a game changer as per Indian Media (  )
> DM MP will get to hear some positive talks about India's position and good work from US counterparts and how they are eager to help India further ...
> Expected to meet some folks who will use Mr Carter to push for their jets under MII
> China is expected to officially comment on LEMOA signing with "proceed with caution" approach and will point to ongoing discussion and visits between India and China.
> Post DM MP coming back some positive developments and events are planned. Will suitably disclose as the time draws near.


Indian interest must put first than LEMOA .
Are we really going to give them access to all our facilities?



Echo_419 said:


> Under no circumstances we must sign LEMOA


Well on our Terms we should.

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## Shankranthi

Aero said:


> Indian interest must put first than LEMOA .
> Are we really going to give them access to all our facilities?
> 
> Well on our Terms we should.



http://thediplomat.com/2016/01/chinese-company-wins-contract-for-deep-sea-port-in-myanmar/


http://www.idsa.in/backgrounder/myanmar-in-chinas-push-into-the-indian-ocean_jmpaul_120316

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## Aero

Shankranthi said:


> You can be sure that India stands to gain much more than we loose in this deal. As a matter of fact its a Win-Win deal for both India and US designed to checkmate china.


I know China is not our friend but hostile Neighbour is in no one's favour. If we get Good outcome of Deal with US only then we should go for it.

@Shankranthi 
If we improve our relations with countries ourselves that will be much better.

PS: Most of powerful countries have uneasy neighbors in the world if you see.

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## Shankranthi

Aero said:


> I know China is not our friend but hostile Neighbour is in no one's favour. If we get Good outcome of Deal with US only then we should go for it.



If you want to Negotiate with China, Step one is to become STRONG.

Operating in chinese waters makes us strong. THEN we Negotiate with China in good faith.

The other option is to BEG china for mercy.

Which option do you think is better ?

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## PARIKRAMA

Guys pls use the following thread
https://defence.pk/threads/india-us...rikar’s-trip-rescheduled-to-help-deal.446209/

For LEMOA.

Have tagged you folks there.. let's keep discussion on it out of here ..

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## Echo_419

Shankranthi said:


> Why ? I am sure it will have an exit clause. If not, we can / should (probably will) insist on it.
> 
> Earlier reports had indicated that the agreed upon draft of LEMOA does not grant "automatic" permission for US ships. It will still require GoI permission to dock and replenish. India gets to access US bases close to China. Maybe in Time (not anytime soon) even take over those bases.
> 
> It will give us opportunity to expand our operational theatre and make us true Blue water Navy.



With LEMOA we will eventually get sucked into US orbit

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## Shankranthi

Echo_419 said:


> With LEMOA we will eventually get sucked into US orbit



Have replied here,

https://defence.pk/threads/india-us-...rikar’s-trip-rescheduled-to-help-deal.446209/

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## Param

We should sign LEMOA and any other pacts,which will help India superpower help in case a war breaks out with China.But it should give India power to Veto decisions which affect its strategic interests.

In lead up to 1962 war with China,Nehru had assumed that USSR and USA would come and help India militarily in its fight.China choose the time right.Both USA and USSR were in confrontation mode because of Cuban Crisis and did not come to help.Nehru's frantic messages for help was unheeded.USA helped but too little and too late.Nehru's policy of Non Alignment was to be blamed for no external help and India's loss.
India can not hope to compete with China on equal footing for long time to come.We will need help.This time if there is war with China,Pakistan will also like to launch simultaneous attack to reap dividends,as India will be very vulnerable.Though i don't think China will do the same,if Pakistan attacks first.

International Politics is protecting your interests.Being selfish.Allying with powerful and projecting yourself.India should reserve the Veto Power on proposed agreements with USA but it should also form alliances with like minded nations.

China and USA path is growing to cross for many years to come .Russia is wary of both USA and China,as very strong China may confront it one day.Also Russia needs China to form an alliance against USA and for the support to its economy which China provides.Thus USSR will not be openly able to support India in its war with China.
Imagine if there was no NATO.How much of financial burden it would have been on a small country like Sweden to prepare itself .Hence alliances,treaties and agreements can not be avoided and we should seek to join one with USA considering its strong adversary.

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## Taygibay

Blue Marlin said:


> im thinking when will there be a point when the french say "just sign it ! " @Vergennes @Taygibay what do you guys think?



It should be like that but it is likely not happening this deal around.

Primo, when a deal is pulling a bigger one, things get complicated.
Secundo, the deal has indeed already reached the stage where not much
can change less the parties end up truly disagreeing and talks break up.
The noise about savings is mostly aimed at the internal market of Indians
so they can get their fix of how great negotiators they believe they are and
also to put MP in a favorable light.
Tertio and that is the variable that I trust you were looking for, the internal
politics of France have now taken over on our end. With the elections coming
in the Spring, Hollande will be very interested in signing and considering how
low his popularity / chances of reelection are, it may push him over the edge
( AKA make him say yes where he should hold fast ) if he deems the resulting
news useful or necessary.
And since this is a govt to govt deal ( where Dassault is but a contractor ), he could.

Honestly, this is a weapon for the Indian side but one with an expiration date.
Once the elections have come and gone, the winners will have different views.
In the least likely scenario, Président Le Pen may balk at signing altogether.
If, just as unlikely, the Gauche /LEFT remains in power, the French team will have
reached the point you described.
And in the most likely possibility of a Classic Right majority, it will depend on their
leader and the team that forms around him. It could go either way but the pressure
to sign will be significantly lessened with only the strategic partnership keeping it up.

Another potential client decided to wait for 2017 a few months back and they're just
as shrewd as the Indians. And a quick reaction in the most likely case would be ...
well, most likely! It could set the Indian order down to fourth place.

That's your context.
Great day to you and yours, Tay.

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## Blue Marlin

Taygibay said:


> It should be like that but it is likely not happening this deal around.
> 
> Primo, when a deal is pulling a bigger one, things get complicated.
> Secundo, the deal has indeed already reached the stage where not much
> can change less the parties end up truly disagreeing and talks break up.
> The noise about savings is mostly aimed at the internal market of Indians
> so they can get their fix of how great negotiators they believe they are and
> also to put MP in a favorable light.
> Tertio and that is the variable that I trust you were looking for, the internal
> politics of France have now taken over on our end. With the elections coming
> in the Spring, Hollande will be very interested in signing and considering how
> low his popularity / chances of reelection are, it may push over the edge ( AKA
> make him say yes where he should hold fast ) if he deems the resulting news
> useful or necessary.
> And since this is a govt to govt deal ( where Dassault is but a contractor ), he could.
> 
> Honestly, this is a weapon for the Indian side but one with an expiration date.
> Once the elections have come and gone, the winners will have different views.
> In the least likely scenario, Président Le Pen amy balk at signing altogether.
> If, just as unlikely, the Gauche /LEFT remains in power, the French team will have
> reached the point you described.
> And in the most likely possibility of a Classic Right majority, it will depend on their
> leader and the team that forms around him. It could go either way but the pressure
> to sign will be significantly lessened with only the strategic partnership keeping it up.
> 
> Another potential client decided to wait for 2017 a few months back and they're just
> as shrewd as the Indians. And a quick reaction in the most likely case would be ...
> well, most likely! It could set the Indian order down to fourth place.
> 
> That's your context.
> Great day to you and yours, Tay.


indeed there is nothing left but the final hurdle, the french have done their part and its upto the indians to do theirs and sign on the dotted line. he french election may push the hollande to bend a bit more and get a bit to show for.

who the mystery client


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## Taygibay

Blue Marlin said:


> who the mystery client



Decrypt as in 2001 A Space Odyssey :


T.Z.D.
​ Tay.

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## Blue Marlin

Taygibay said:


> Decrypt as in 2001 A Space Odyssey :
> 
> 
> T.Z.D.
> ​ Tay.


damn you! it is the uae? malaysia, 
i doubt its the saudis.
god no, is it pakistan?

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## Taygibay

Blue Marlin said:


> damn you! it is the uae?



You didn't get the Kubrick reference? HAL in the movie?

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## Spectre

Taygibay said:


> You didn't get the Kubrick reference? HAL in the movie?



HAL was a psychopath, France beware..

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## Taygibay

LOL He/it was also a front at least by name for a corp known as Big Blue!

 Tay.

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## Spectre

Taygibay said:


> LOL He/it was also a front at least by name for a corp known as Big Blue!
> 
> Tay.



Poor IBM! All the conspiracy theories and hate by apples and googles...Now apple and google are the new IBM. 

Or is it the case of greatest trick ever by pulled by devil..?

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## Blue Marlin

Taygibay said:


> You didn't get the Kubrick reference? HAL in the movie?


im not a movie guy. so it is the uae.

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## Taygibay

Spectre :
Nah, it was of course the sole responsibility of Arthur C. Clarke for having
written the novel thus with this deliberate name choice.

But he wasn't as you let guess aiming at IBM except inasmuch as they then
represented _the machine / the machines / Skynet_ and the loss of humanity.

Read you later, take care, Tay.

*Blue* : HAL -the computer's name in the film- was IBM with each letter replaced
by the one immediately preceding it in the alphabet. I followed suite here .
The real pun was that HAL means something else entirely in the Indian context.

So yes ...


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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Another potential client decided to wait for 2017 a few months back and they're just
> as shrewd as the Indians. And a quick reaction in the most likely case would be ...
> well, most likely! It could set the Indian order down to fourth place.



I think the delivery timeline for the IAF Rafales is locked even if another contender wants to sign up before India.

The delivery time of all 36 Rafales is 3 years. So the last Rafale should reach India by 2019. At least this was the plan. Initially it was just 2 years, but Trappier argued it was not possible, so it was changed to 3.

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## Taygibay

As I did not mention deliveries in that quote nor at all,
it was quite useless to tag me and mention it, wasn't it?

I'm sorry but that's the nature of my problem with you.
If you ever stop answering the thoughts that my posts
invoked as pretexts conflate in your mind and only con-
sider the facts, you'll probably find we agree at times.

Have a good day in any case but no need for tags, Tay.

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> As I did not mention deliveries in that quote nor at all,
> it was quite useless to tag me and mention it wasn't it?
> 
> I'm sorry but that's the nature of my problem with you.
> If you ever stop answering the thoughts that my posts
> invoked as pretexts conflate in your mind and only con-
> sidered the facts, you'd probably find we agree at times.
> 
> Have a good day in any case but no need for tags, Tay.



You said some other country could push India down to fourth place. I argued it is irrelevant if someone else signs before us because what matters more is who gets their jets earlier, not who signs earlier.

Had you not brought up the fourth place thing, I wouldn't have replied to your post. So your shrewd clients are not going to do much by signing earlier.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Ok anybody , on how many of the first 36 is planned to be twin seaters ?


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## Taygibay

Under MMRCA, the plan called for 12 single and 6 dual seaters per 18 planes squadron.

GN, Tay.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Taygibay said:


> Under MMRCA, the plan called for 12 single and 6 dual seaters per 18 planes squadron.
> 
> GN, Tay.


I agree with your post, and it's a good indication. But we don't know what will be the use of this 36 first planes. It seems that MODI was able to ask for them without the Parikar agreement because it was for SFC. In this case perhaps India will ask for more dual seaters.

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## Taygibay

Yes, agreed in return Pic! I was indeed giving it as a mere clue.
If the split is SFC served first and regular sqdns later, Bs fit best.

Salut, Tay.

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Under MMRCA, the plan called for 12 single and 6 dual seaters per 18 planes squadron.
> 
> GN, Tay.





Picdelamirand-oil said:


> I agree with your post, and it's a good indication. But we don't know what will be the use of this 36 first planes. It seems that MODI was able to ask for them without the Parikar agreement because it was for SFC. In this case perhaps India will ask for more dual seaters.



Original plan was 12 and 6, but that's changed. Now we don't know. It's because IAF decided to induct single seat FGFAs compared to the earlier plan which was only for the two seat version. So the importance for two seat Rafales has only increased.

I won't be surprised if 50% or more of the fleet will consist of Bs.

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## newindiandefence

Indian cancelled deal of rafale was about 30 billion for 126 .. how should we use this money??????
Rafael ....30......126


F35.........$7billion......... 40
F16v.......$9billion......... 90
Mig35.....$4billion.........100
Pakfa.....$10billion........100 russian
Total......320
Or
F35.........7.......... 40
rafale......8......... 36
Mig35.....5........ 124
Pakfa.....10........100
Total......300

Or
F35.........7.......... 40 
rafale......8......... 36 f16v........5......... 50
Pakfa.....10........100
Total......226



newindiandefence said:


> Indian cancelled deal of rafale was about 30 billion for 126 .. how should we use this money??????
> Rafael ....30......126
> 
> 
> F35.........$7billion......... 40
> F16v.......$9billion......... 90
> Mig35.....$4billion.........100
> Pakfa.....$10billion........100 russian
> Total......320
> Or
> F35.........7.......... 40
> rafale......8......... 36
> Mig35.....5........ 124
> Pakfa.....10........100
> Total......300
> 
> Or
> F35.........7.......... 40
> rafale......8......... 36 f16v........5......... 50
> Pakfa.....10........100
> Total......226


I prefer 36 rafale, 40 f35, Mig35 124,Pakfa Russian current 100..



randomradio said:


> Original plan was 12 and 6, but that's changed. Now we don't know. It's because IAF decided to induct single seat FGFAs compared to the earlier plan which was only for the two seat version. So the importance for two seat Rafales has only increased.
> 
> I won't be surprised if 50% or more of the fleet will consist of Bs.





newindiandefence said:


> l cancelled deal of rafale was about 30 billion for 126 .. how should we use this money??????
> Rafael ....30......126
> 
> 
> F35.........$7billion......... 40
> F16v.......$9billion......... 90
> Mig35.....$4billion.........100
> Pakfa.....$10billion........100 russian
> Total......320
> Or
> F35.........7.......... 40
> rafale......8......... 36
> Mig35.....5........ 124
> Pakfa.....10........100
> Total......300
> 
> Or
> F35.........7.......... 40
> rafale......8......... 36 f16v........5......... 50
> Pakfa.....10........100
> Total......226




I prefer 36 rafale, 40 f35, Mig35 124,Pakfa Russian current 100..

Then future fighters of iaf ...

Hindustan

Suprsukhoi. 320 (2020)
Rafael......... 36 (2020)
Tejas1a...... 120 (2020)
Mig35mki.... 124 (2020)
Pakfa.......... 100 (2020)
F-35 Israel. 40 (2025)
Fgfa............ 147 (2025)
Amca......... 250 (2030)


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## surya kiran

newindiandefence said:


> Indian cancelled deal of rafale was about 30 billion for 126 .. how should we use this money??????
> Rafael ....30......126
> 
> 
> F35.........$7billion......... 40
> F16v.......$9billion......... 90
> Mig35.....$4billion.........100
> Pakfa.....$10billion........100 russian
> Total......320
> Or
> F35.........7.......... 40
> rafale......8......... 36
> Mig35.....5........ 124
> Pakfa.....10........100
> Total......300
> 
> Or
> F35.........7.......... 40
> rafale......8......... 36 f16v........5......... 50
> Pakfa.....10........100
> Total......226
> 
> 
> I prefer 36 rafale, 40 f35, Mig35 124,Pakfa Russian current 100..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I prefer 36 rafale, 40 f35, Mig35 124,Pakfa Russian current 100..
> 
> Then future fighters of iaf ...
> 
> Hindustan
> 
> Suprsukhoi. 320 (2020)
> Rafael......... 36 (2020)
> Tejas1a...... 120 (2020)
> Mig35mki.... 124 (2020)
> Pakfa.......... 100 (2020)
> F-35 Israel. 40 (2025)
> Fgfa............ 147 (2025)
> Amca......... 250 (2030)



Good morning.

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## R!CK

newindiandefence said:


> Indian cancelled deal of rafale was about 30 billion for 126 .. how should we use this money??????
> Rafael ....30......126
> 
> 
> F35.........$7billion......... 40
> F16v.......$9billion......... 90
> Mig35.....$4billion.........100
> Pakfa.....$10billion........100 russian
> Total......320
> Or
> F35.........7.......... 40
> rafale......8......... 36
> Mig35.....5........ 124
> Pakfa.....10........100
> Total......300
> 
> Or
> F35.........7.......... 40
> rafale......8......... 36 f16v........5......... 50
> Pakfa.....10........100
> Total......226
> 
> 
> I prefer 36 rafale, 40 f35, Mig35 124,Pakfa Russian current 100..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I prefer 36 rafale, 40 f35, Mig35 124,Pakfa Russian current 100..
> 
> Then future fighters of iaf ...
> 
> Hindustan
> 
> Suprsukhoi. 320 (2020)
> Rafael......... 36 (2020)
> Tejas1a...... 120 (2020)
> Mig35mki.... 124 (2020)
> Pakfa.......... 100 (2020)
> F-35 Israel. 40 (2025)
> Fgfa............ 147 (2025)
> Amca......... 250 (2030)



Add to that jaguar, mirage and Mig29 and we have a zoo.

Good Day!

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## [Bregs]

*French weapons supplier to Rafale, Scorpene under scanner for Rs 21 crore donation to NGO*

A series of donations worth Rs 21 crore by a French arms company — the key weapons provider to Scorpene submarine and Rafale jets — to an Indian NGO have come under the scanner after income-tax raids on a New Delhi-based consultant in June. The donations, earmarked for mobile medical units in Punjab and Rajasthan, were apparently made under the corporate social responsibility (CSR) programme of MBDA, the French arms manufacturer. Senior officials involved with investigations told ET that the matter has been referred to intelligence agencies for further probe. These officials spoke on the condition they not be identified. “We are awaiting a detailed report before deciding on the next step,” said an official. The Scorpene deal with India is already in controversy after sensitive data on the Indian programme found its way into an Australian daily last week. The NGO in question is Advantage India and its prominent backer is Deepak Talwar, a corporate consultant. The income-tax conducted searches on Talwar’s premises on June 22 following certain mentions in an earlier search on defence consultant Sanjay Bhandari. MBDA has justified the donations, saying that there were only one part of several CSR activities in India which include scholarships for graduates and support for academic institutions. Officials said agencies were alerted on a tranche of money received from the French arms company from 2012-13. Incidentally, FCRA licence of the NGO — under which foreign contributions are allowed — was renewed in April. The government has been actively scrutinising foreign contributions, seeking to find the purpose and destination of millions of dollars flowing in from foreign sources. Several NGOs have been asked to explain the purpose of the funds and FCRA licenses have also been cancelled. The spokesperson for his NGO Advantage India Sanjay Mittal however confirmed that money was received from MBDA as part of its CSR fund. “We have nothing to hide. The NGO have been filing its FCRA and Income Tax details regularly. This was the first project with MBDA and they were very satisfied with our work which was primarily in health, education sectors and livelihood to underprivileged.” Mittal said. When contacted, Talwar refused to comment on the issue. “I have nothing to say”, he told ET. Responding to queries from ET, MBDA said that the contributions were made for a concrete health care initiative and the funds given have been audited and declared to Indian authorities according to the law. “Based on a concrete action plan, MBDA funded Advantage India to provide increased access to health care (free of cost) through Mobile Medical Units at village level and to promote health care through awareness generation about the preventive measures against diseases,” the company said. It added that it has two other CSR initiatives, a scholarship program for aeronautical specialists and a design and development support plan for courses at Hindustan University (Chennai). “”In the frame of our longstanding partnership with India, MBDA decided some years ago to invest into India’s future through some CSR programs,” an MBDA spokesperson said.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...rore-donation-to-ngo/articleshow/53951881.cms

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## BON PLAN

newindiandefence said:


> See this also
> 
> future fighters of sum countries combined population don't match india
> 
> 1. Turkey
> F-35..... 60-90 (2025)
> Tfx ...... 60-90 (2035)
> 
> 2. Egypt
> Rafael....24-36 (2020)
> Mig-35.. 50-70 (2020)
> 
> 3. Saudi Arab
> F-15......86-170 (2016)
> Typoon.. 60-80 (2016)
> 
> 4. Oman
> Typoon...12-24 (2020)
> 
> 5. UAE
> F-16e.....70-90 (2016)
> Rafael,,Typoon (2024)
> 
> 6. qatar
> F-15......30-40 (2018)
> Rafael...24-36 (2020)
> 
> 7. Indonesia
> Su30.......16-20 (2014)
> Tfx.......... 40-60 (2030)
> 
> 8. Iran
> Su30....100-150 (2022)
> 
> 9. Kuwet
> Fa18......32-36 (2017)
> Typoon..24-36 (2020)
> 
> Pakistan - j 31
> Malaysia- 39gripen
> This is varaitty....
> Almost every type of fighter jets...


No Mig 35 in Egypt. Mig 29M instead.
No Eurofighter in UAE : technically not suitable (the Rafale was economically not suitable in 2011.... not the same thing)
F15 in Qatar? first news. specially in 2018.



[Bregs] said:


> *French weapons supplier to Rafale, Scorpene under scanner for Rs 21 crore donation to NGO*
> 
> A series of donations worth Rs 21 crore by a French arms company — the key weapons provider to Scorpene submarine and Rafale jets — to an Indian NGO have come under the scanner after income-tax raids on a New Delhi-based consultant in June. The donations, earmarked for mobile medical units in Punjab and Rajasthan, were apparently made under the corporate social responsibility (CSR) programme of MBDA, the French arms manufacturer. Senior officials involved with investigations told ET that the matter has been referred to intelligence agencies for further probe. These officials spoke on the condition they not be identified. “We are awaiting a detailed report before deciding on the next step,” said an official. The Scorpene deal with India is already in controversy after sensitive data on the Indian programme found its way into an Australian daily last week. The NGO in question is Advantage India and its prominent backer is Deepak Talwar, a corporate consultant. The income-tax conducted searches on Talwar’s premises on June 22 following certain mentions in an earlier search on defence consultant Sanjay Bhandari. MBDA has justified the donations, saying that there were only one part of several CSR activities in India which include scholarships for graduates and support for academic institutions. Officials said agencies were alerted on a tranche of money received from the French arms company from 2012-13. Incidentally, FCRA licence of the NGO — under which foreign contributions are allowed — was renewed in April. The government has been actively scrutinising foreign contributions, seeking to find the purpose and destination of millions of dollars flowing in from foreign sources. Several NGOs have been asked to explain the purpose of the funds and FCRA licenses have also been cancelled. The spokesperson for his NGO Advantage India Sanjay Mittal however confirmed that money was received from MBDA as part of its CSR fund. “We have nothing to hide. The NGO have been filing its FCRA and Income Tax details regularly. This was the first project with MBDA and they were very satisfied with our work which was primarily in health, education sectors and livelihood to underprivileged.” Mittal said. When contacted, Talwar refused to comment on the issue. “I have nothing to say”, he told ET. Responding to queries from ET, MBDA said that the contributions were made for a concrete health care initiative and the funds given have been audited and declared to Indian authorities according to the law. “Based on a concrete action plan, MBDA funded Advantage India to provide increased access to health care (free of cost) through Mobile Medical Units at village level and to promote health care through awareness generation about the preventive measures against diseases,” the company said. It added that it has two other CSR initiatives, a scholarship program for aeronautical specialists and a design and development support plan for courses at Hindustan University (Chennai). “”In the frame of our longstanding partnership with India, MBDA decided some years ago to invest into India’s future through some CSR programs,” an MBDA spokesperson said.
> 
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...rore-donation-to-ngo/articleshow/53951881.cms


Another attack against french (more European than French) company....

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## [Bregs]

Govt must hurry and up and seal the rafales deal now lest the vested interests will leave no stone unturned to spoil this deal

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## PARIKRAMA

[Bregs] said:


> *French weapons supplier to Rafale, Scorpene under scanner for Rs 21 crore donation to NGO*
> 
> A series of donations worth Rs 21 crore by a French arms company — the key weapons provider to Scorpene submarine and Rafale jets — to an Indian NGO have come under the scanner after income-tax raids on a New Delhi-based consultant in June. The donations, earmarked for mobile medical units in Punjab and Rajasthan, were apparently made under the corporate social responsibility (CSR) programme of MBDA, the French arms manufacturer. Senior officials involved with investigations told ET that the matter has been referred to intelligence agencies for further probe. These officials spoke on the condition they not be identified. “We are awaiting a detailed report before deciding on the next step,” said an official. The Scorpene deal with India is already in controversy after sensitive data on the Indian programme found its way into an Australian daily last week. The NGO in question is Advantage India and its prominent backer is Deepak Talwar, a corporate consultant. The income-tax conducted searches on Talwar’s premises on June 22 following certain mentions in an earlier search on defence consultant Sanjay Bhandari. MBDA has justified the donations, saying that there were only one part of several CSR activities in India which include scholarships for graduates and support for academic institutions. Officials said agencies were alerted on a tranche of money received from the French arms company from 2012-13. Incidentally, FCRA licence of the NGO — under which foreign contributions are allowed — was renewed in April. The government has been actively scrutinising foreign contributions, seeking to find the purpose and destination of millions of dollars flowing in from foreign sources. Several NGOs have been asked to explain the purpose of the funds and FCRA licenses have also been cancelled. The spokesperson for his NGO Advantage India Sanjay Mittal however confirmed that money was received from MBDA as part of its CSR fund. “We have nothing to hide. The NGO have been filing its FCRA and Income Tax details regularly. This was the first project with MBDA and they were very satisfied with our work which was primarily in health, education sectors and livelihood to underprivileged.” Mittal said. When contacted, Talwar refused to comment on the issue. “I have nothing to say”, he told ET. Responding to queries from ET, MBDA said that the contributions were made for a concrete health care initiative and the funds given have been audited and declared to Indian authorities according to the law. “Based on a concrete action plan, MBDA funded Advantage India to provide increased access to health care (free of cost) through Mobile Medical Units at village level and to promote health care through awareness generation about the preventive measures against diseases,” the company said. It added that it has two other CSR initiatives, a scholarship program for aeronautical specialists and a design and development support plan for courses at Hindustan University (Chennai). “”In the frame of our longstanding partnership with India, MBDA decided some years ago to invest into India’s future through some CSR programs,” an MBDA spokesperson said.
> 
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...rore-donation-to-ngo/articleshow/53951881.cms






[Bregs] said:


> Govt must hurry and up and seal the rafales deal now lest the vested interests will leave no stone unturned to spoil this deal



Its expected that such attacks would continue.. The beauty is the fact that MBDA is a weapons supplier but not a direct entity. The direct entity which should make people bothered is Rafale International comprising of Dassault Aviation, Thales and Safran.

Now since Meteor and Mica are MBDA products, the whole thing is superimposed into Rafales and and then connected to Scorpene as well.

TBH if i remember correctly MBDA has French (Airbus 37.5%), UK (BAE 37.5%) and Italian (leonardo/finmeccanica 25%) shareholding. Its true Leonardo wanted to exit and Airbus wanted to buy that stake as well.

It would be interesting how anti France and Anti Rafales/Anti DCNS etc will increase such news items but no one points out that GOI is not even bothered by all these wild accusations. For them if there is a irrefutable proof they will cancel all deals but if there is no proof its business as usual.

Let DM MP return, you will hear some good news soon.. As i said Q3/Q4 are marked for payments and hence its time now to declare the intent. and DM Mp already has some more pressure.. See here






Lets just say he said fighter "aircraft" not "aircrafts".. Singular not plural.. so which one is in pole position to do that when the likes of all others have not even entered into exclusive negotiations at all. The only one waiting is the Dassault and for strategic partnership part.. Everything is ready..

Its basically clearing the way for the formal announcement ....

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## [Bregs]

PARIKRAMA said:


> Lets just say he said fighter "aircraft" not "aircrafts".. Singular not plural.. so which one is in pole position to do that when the likes of all others have not even entered into exclusive negotiations at all. *The only one waiting is the Dassault and for strategic partnership part.. Everything is ready..*
> 
> Its basically clearing the way for the formal announcement ....



well bro i sincerely hope n pray that this single aircraft do not turn out to be 1970's-80's F-16 but Rafale

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## BON PLAN

[Bregs] said:


> well bro i sincerely hope n pray that this single aircraft do not turn out to be 1970's-80's F-16 but Rafale


99% done. F16 was a very nice plane, if ordered 15 years ago, but its time is now over.

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## PARIKRAMA

This journalist belongs to PTI.


@Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @anant_s @hellfire https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @Armani @R!CK @GuardianRED @surya kiran @AugenBlick @Aero @Kraitcorp @zebra7 @litefire @Techy @MilSpec @SpArK @nair

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## Sri

TOIlet reporting the file is with PM
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...PMO-for-final-review/articleshow/53964866.cms

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## R!CK

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 330609
> 
> This journalist belongs to PTI.
> 
> 
> @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @anant_s @hellfire https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @Armani @R!CK @GuardianRED @surya kiran @AugenBlick @Aero @Kraitcorp @zebra7 @litefire @Techy @MilSpec @SpArK @nair



I wish he said something we didn't already know? 

1. _*Offsets worth atleast 3 billion*. So even if contract is for 10 billion and offset is 5 billion, hes not wrong. lol_

2. _*Deal between 7.5-7.89 B Euros. *Yet his math is so weak he had to estimate offsets as atleast 3 billion. _

3. _*Weapon includes Meteor. *Only a moron would buy a rafale without Meteor. _

P.S: Thanks @PARIKRAMA as always

Good Day!

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## BON PLAN

R!CK said:


> P.S: Thanks @PARIKRAMA as always


as ever.

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## AugenBlick

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 330609
> 
> This journalist belongs to PTI.
> 
> 
> @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @anant_s @hellfire https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @Armani @R!CK @GuardianRED @surya kiran @AugenBlick @Aero @Kraitcorp @zebra7 @litefire @Techy @MilSpec @SpArK @nair


OMG I got a mention by PARIKxxx 
anyway I have already celebrated the deal long back with Daft punk etc.

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## PARIKRAMA

Sri said:


> TOIlet reporting the file is with PM
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...PMO-for-final-review/articleshow/53964866.cms



posting the article

*Rafale deal closer to a decision, sent to PMO for final review*
PTI | Sep 1, 2016, 07.23 PM IST
*HIGHLIGHTS*

Defence ministry has cleared the final report on purchase of 36 Rafale jets
The report is now sent to the PM for his final review and assent
French sources have said they are expecting a positive development this month



NEW DELHI: The multi-billion Euro deal for 36 Rafales moved a step closer to a decision as the file on the fighter jets has been sent to the Prime Minister's Office for final review and clearance.

*Defence sources said on Thursday the final report submitted by a team negotiating the much-anticipated Rafale deal with France has been cleared by the defence ministry.*
*
While officials remained tight-lipped about the state of the deal, a high-ranking source when asked by PTI if it has been moved for clearance by the Cabinet Committee on Security, said, "I would not say no".*

*French sources have said they are expecting a positive development this month.*

During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract.

Soon after the announcement, the defence ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defence giantDassault Aviation.

The deal is expected to be worth around 7.89 billion Euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly away conditions.

The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile, Meteor, and Israeli helmet mounted display.

The price of the deal was brought down from nearly 10 billion Euros, as sought initially, due to various reasons, including tough negotiation by India, the discount offered by the French government and reworking of some of the criteria.
It is not clear if the price has been brought down further, but India was seeking more.
The new deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets.

The commercial negotiations on the pricing of the planes, equipment and other issues began in mid-January this year.

+++







and CCS 

August 12th




https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-298#post-8562600






https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-288#post-8510478





https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-284#post-8490532

++

We will hear more NEWS Soon...

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 330609
> 
> This journalist belongs to PTI.
> 
> 
> @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @anant_s @hellfire https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @Armani @R!CK @GuardianRED @surya kiran @AugenBlick @Aero @Kraitcorp @zebra7 @litefire @Techy @MilSpec @SpArK @nair


This show that the Rafale Deal (on the surface) is proceeding now without much blowback from the Scorpene fiacssco. We all do know that Patiences is a Virtue ! BUT Im Sure everyone in the world would be really happy that the Indians have made up there Mind! ... Better start storing Virtual Sweets!

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## Grevion

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 330609
> 
> This journalist belongs to PTI.
> 
> 
> @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @anant_s @hellfire https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @Armani @R!CK @GuardianRED @surya kiran @AugenBlick @Aero @Kraitcorp @zebra7 @litefire @Techy @MilSpec @SpArK @nair


So now PTI is reporting it.
We must be really close to signing the deal.

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## Hellfire

@PARIKRAMA 

Thanks as always. And when are you starting your own defence publication???? Seriously!

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## AugenBlick

hellfire said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> Thanks as always. And when are you starting your own defence publication???? Seriously!


He is the alter ego of Manohar *Parrik*ar.

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## kaykay

litefire said:


> So now PTI is reporting it.
> We must be really close to signing the deal.


Ghanta!!! We are 'close' to sign the deal since years now.

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## hitenray09

NEW DELHI: The multi-billion Euro deal for 36 Rafales moved a step closer to a decision as the file on the fighter jets has been sent to the Prime Minister's Office for final review and clearance.

Defence sources said on Thursday the final report submitted by a team negotiating the much-anticipated Rafale deal with France has been cleared by the defence ministry.

While officials remained tight-lipped about the state of the deal, a high-ranking source when asked by PTI if it has been moved for clearance by the Cabinet Committee on Security, said, "I would not say no".

French sources have said they are expecting a positive development this month.

During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract.

Soon after the announcement, the defence ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defence giantDassault Aviation.

The deal is expected to be worth around 7.89 billion Euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly away conditions.

The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile, Meteor, and Israeli helmet mounted display.

The price of the deal was brought down from nearly 10 billion Euros, as sought initially, due to various reasons, including tough negotiation by India, the discount offered by the French government and reworking of some of the criteria.

It is not clear if the price has been brought down further, but India was seeking more.
The new deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets.
The commercial negotiations on the pricing of the planes, equipment and other issues began in mid-January this year.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...PMO-for-final-review/articleshow/53964866.cms

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## Tangent123

Won't count chicken bwfore they hatch

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## [Bregs]

This deal so far has gone exactly like a bollywood drama movies so lets wait and watch if it doesn't take any more turns

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## CBU-105

just post such news in the sticky.

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## livingdead



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## PARIKRAMA

News posted already in Rafale sticky.

Pls post Rafale news in sticky only..

@waz @WAJsal 

Kindly merge the thread with the sticky

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## DrPuff

It's kind of one of those bed stories..
Sun Sun k nind aa jata hai..bc

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## Laozi

hinduguy said:


>


SO APT , PRICELESS

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## Grevion

kaykay said:


> Ghanta!!! We are 'close' to sign the deal since years now.


Hehe. That's very true. But there is no point in further delays. Negotiations on 36 rafales are over, file is awaiting clearance from CCS. This time we are the closest.

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## [Bregs]

looks like climax of bollywood potboiler is due now

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## Stephen Cohen

hellfire said:


> Yes. I sent him a mail asking him to come back, he declined.



Very GOOD news

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## AugenBlick

hellfire said:


> That is what, and he can give you further references .... awesome!!!!
> 
> I like his DP ... I imagine him scurrying around and posting one after the other while we are still reading the first .....
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. I sent him a mail asking him to come back, he declined.


Good riddance...

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## Stephen Cohen

AH ; FINALLY after FOUR years and Eight Months 
when the Decision was announced to select Rafale

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## danger007

PARIKRAMA said:


> News posted already in Rafale sticky.
> 
> Pls post Rafale news in sticky only..
> 
> @waz @WAJsal
> 
> Kindly merge the thread with the sticky





Sticky @PARIKRAMA.. whenever i notice separate threads.. I expect PARIKRAMA on duty.

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## R!CK

PARIKRAMA said:


> News posted already in Rafale sticky.
> 
> Pls post Rafale news in sticky only..
> 
> @waz @WAJsal
> 
> Kindly merge the thread with the sticky



If it was upto me, I'd have given u privileges to do it urself. There can't be a better thing than that. And the Indian section will only get more organised if you didn't have to depend on another person to action on your request. Thanks @PARIKRAMA for your untiring efforts.

Good Day to you!

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> posting the article
> 
> *Rafale deal closer to a decision, sent to PMO for final review*
> PTI | Sep 1, 2016, 07.23 PM IST
> *HIGHLIGHTS*
> 
> Defence ministry has cleared the final report on purchase of 36 Rafale jets
> The report is now sent to the PM for his final review and assent
> French sources have said they are expecting a positive development this month
> 
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI: The multi-billion Euro deal for 36 Rafales moved a step closer to a decision as the file on the fighter jets has been sent to the Prime Minister's Office for final review and clearance.
> 
> *Defence sources said on Thursday the final report submitted by a team negotiating the much-anticipated Rafale deal with France has been cleared by the defence ministry.*
> *
> While officials remained tight-lipped about the state of the deal, a high-ranking source when asked by PTI if it has been moved for clearance by the Cabinet Committee on Security, said, "I would not say no".*
> 
> *French sources have said they are expecting a positive development this month.*
> 
> During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract.
> 
> Soon after the announcement, the defence ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defence giantDassault Aviation.
> 
> The deal is expected to be worth around 7.89 billion Euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly away conditions.
> 
> The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile, Meteor, and Israeli helmet mounted display.
> 
> The price of the deal was brought down from nearly 10 billion Euros, as sought initially, due to various reasons, including tough negotiation by India, the discount offered by the French government and reworking of some of the criteria.
> It is not clear if the price has been brought down further, but India was seeking more.
> The new deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets.
> 
> The commercial negotiations on the pricing of the planes, equipment and other issues began in mid-January this year.
> 
> +++
> 
> View attachment 330620
> 
> 
> and CCS
> 
> August 12th
> View attachment 330621
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-298#post-8562600
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-288#post-8510478
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-284#post-8490532
> 
> ++
> 
> We will hear more NEWS Soon...


I never doubted you bro and once again you are being proven right.

I am just too inpatient and am waiting to celebrate the MII aspect, the 36 off the shelf deal is merely the amuse bouche.

Any updates on that front brother? What Indian partner(s) are being lined up to produce these beasts in India now it seems RIL is on the outside?

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## surya kiran

Abingdonboy said:


> I never doubted you bro and once again you are being proven right.
> 
> I am just too inpatient and am waiting to celebrate the MII aspect, the 36 off the shelf deal is merely the amuse bouche.
> 
> Any updates on that front brother? What Indian partner(s) are being lined up to produce these beasts in India now it seems RIL is on the outside?


200+ is the final number. Has been since the time the IN numbers got involved. All this updates is just like a news feed. Wait for the biggie. And ya, its not RIL. Either Mahindra or Tata. Was speaking to somebody from RIL. He said, its not them. They are concentrating on Telecom, Retail and Petrochemicals.

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> I never doubted you bro and once again you are being proven right.
> 
> I am just too inpatient and am waiting to celebrate the MII aspect, the 36 off the shelf deal is merely the amuse bouche.
> 
> Any updates on that front brother? What Indian partner(s) are being lined up to produce these beasts in India now it seems RIL is on the outside?



One group whose name is prominent is Reliance Defence+ Samtel+ Bharat Electronics. This group partners is expected to be joined by another company to boost the credibility bcz of ADAG groups present financial position . The inclusion of a PSU in the form of BEL or any other company will be for seamless flow of tech transfer and hence some point to HAL and some point to L&T being also included.

The decision finally will be conveyed when strategic partnership is out.but chiefly as of now there is a understanding between Reliance defence, Samtel and Bharat Electronics to complete the JV with Dassault to produce Rafales and Falcons ...

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## surya kiran

PARIKRAMA said:


> ADAG groups present financial position


Not to mention the GoI wants another PSU involved, besides HAL. Samtel is a given for their field. I hope its not ADAG. He seems to mess up everything he enters. Mahindra would be much better organised as a group.

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## PARIKRAMA

surya kiran said:


> Not to mention the GoI wants another PSU involved, besides HAL. Samtel is a given for their field. I hope its not ADAG. He seems to mess up everything he enters. Mahindra would be much better organised as a group.


Airbus got them. So yes a possibility exists.. but difficult chance..tata are snapped by both Boeing and LM .. so tata are actually out unless GOI coerces them to get on board..

Government will like to spread the new defence JVs who are awarded contracts instead of concentrating only on one entity.. so that's why Mahindra is a challenge.. besides L&T I don't see suitable choice bcz they are involved a lot with DRDO projects and does work for LCA as well.. they are a sub assembler. Naturally handpicking them gives immense advantage and access..

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## [Bregs]

PARIKRAMA said:


> One group whose name is prominent is Reliance Defence+ Samtel+ Bharat Electronics. This group partners is expected to be joined by another company to boost the credibility bcz of ADAG groups present financial position . The inclusion of a PSU in the form of BEL or any other company will be for seamless flow of tech transfer and hence some point to HAL and some point to L&T being also included.
> 
> The decision finally will be conveyed when strategic partnership is out.but chiefly as of now there is a understanding between Reliance defence, Samtel and Bharat Electronics to complete the JV with Dassault to produce Rafales and Falcons ...




damn ADAG is going to be the weakest most vulnerable link if dassault decided to partner with them

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## randomradio

surya kiran said:


> Earlier all reports said RIL. There is only 1 RIL. That is Mukesh Ambani. Anil Ambani is called ADAG, not RIL.



Actually, you said RIL, I did not.

Pipavav was acquired by Reliance Defence and Engineering, RDE. It's under ADAG. It was purchased by Reliance Infrastructure, which is also under ADAG.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ence-and-engineering/articleshow/51243955.cms

Then there's Reliance Defence and Aerospace, RDA.
https://in.rbth.com/economics/defen...space-to-make-200-helicopters-in-india_393195
The Russian government has selected Reliance Defence and Aerospace (RDA), a company owned by Indian billionaire industrialist *Anil Ambani,* for a joint venture to manufacture almost 200 Kamov 226T helicopters in India.

All of ADAG's subsidiaries have the name Reliance in them. Like Reliance Power, Reliance Comm, Reliance Capital etc.

So RIL is under Mukesh and has nothing to do with defence. All the defence related stuff is under ADAG. Hence the confusion.

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## PARIKRAMA

Both are correct, initially If i remember it was said reliance industries MOU under MMRCA and now it's Reliance defence under ADAG post MOU elapsed..

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## GuardianRED

randomradio said:


> Actually, you said RIL, I did not.
> 
> Pipavav was acquired by Reliance Defence and Engineering, RDE. It's under ADAG. It was purchased by Reliance Infrastructure, which is also under ADAG.
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ence-and-engineering/articleshow/51243955.cms
> 
> Then there's Reliance Defence and Aerospace, RDA.
> https://in.rbth.com/economics/defen...space-to-make-200-helicopters-in-india_393195
> The Russian government has selected Reliance Defence and Aerospace (RDA), a company owned by Indian billionaire industrialist *Anil Ambani,* for a joint venture to manufacture almost 200 Kamov 226T helicopters in India.
> 
> All of ADAG's subsidiaries have the name Reliance in them. Like Reliance Power, Reliance Comm, Reliance Capital etc.
> 
> So RIL is under Mukesh and has nothing to do with defence. All the defence related stuff is under ADAG. Hence the confusion.


Thanks for the clarification - Couldn't one of the bro not choose the name reliance !

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> Both are correct, initially If i remember it was said reliance industries MOU under MMRCA and now it's Reliance defence under ADAG post MOU elapsed..



Yeah, but that deal was dead on arrival because HAL was supposed to be the main partner. RIL and Dassault are still involved in the Falcon. RIL is more into civilian tech, like their deal with Boeing also.



GuardianRED said:


> Thanks for the clarification - Couldn't one of the bro not choose the name reliance !



The brothers became all chummy again. Now RIL will take over communications with their Jio. And ADAG gets defence. They have decided they will help each other out.

Mukesh's aerospace company is called Reliance Aerospace Technologies, RAT.

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## surya kiran

randomradio said:


> Actually, you said RIL, I did not.
> 
> Pipavav was acquired by Reliance Defence and Engineering, RDE. It's under ADAG. It was purchased by Reliance Infrastructure, which is also under ADAG.
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ence-and-engineering/articleshow/51243955.cms
> 
> Then there's Reliance Defence and Aerospace, RDA.
> https://in.rbth.com/economics/defen...space-to-make-200-helicopters-in-india_393195
> The Russian government has selected Reliance Defence and Aerospace (RDA), a company owned by Indian billionaire industrialist *Anil Ambani,* for a joint venture to manufacture almost 200 Kamov 226T helicopters in India.
> 
> All of ADAG's subsidiaries have the name Reliance in them. Like Reliance Power, Reliance Comm, Reliance Capital etc.
> 
> So RIL is under Mukesh and has nothing to do with defence. All the defence related stuff is under ADAG. Hence the confusion.



Please read what earlier reports were saying. All reports concerning DA mentioned RIL. And I am well aware of which companies are part of ADAG and RIL. 

The current reports say ADAG not the earlier ones.

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## randomradio

surya kiran said:


> Please read what earlier reports were saying. All reports concerning DA mentioned RIL. And I am well aware of which companies are part of ADAG and RIL.
> 
> The current reports say ADAG not the earlier ones.



Now, all the partnering work is possible only after the Strategic Partnership clauses are finished in the DPP. The older partnerships are irrelevant. Snecma also withdrew discussions with HAL.


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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> Now, all the partnering work is possible only after the Strategic Partnership clauses are finished in the DPP. The older partnerships are irrelevant. Snecma also withdrew discussions with HAL.


with what Indian company can Snecma work ?

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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> with what Indian company can Snecma work ?



Tata Advanced Systems, Reliance Defence and Aerospace, L&T and Godrej come to mind.

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## R!CK

randomradio said:


> Tata Advanced Systems, Reliance Defence and Aerospace, L&T and Godrej come to mind.



I wish Tata took the initiative and got the JV with Snecma. We need someone apart from HAL in the engine business. Even Bharat Forge could be a good candidate.

Good Day!

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## randomradio

R!CK said:


> I wish Tata took the initiative and got the JV with Snecma. We need someone apart from HAL in the engine business. Even Bharat Forge could be a good candidate.
> 
> Good Day!



True. During MMRCA, Snecma had no choice, but now they do. Let's see what happens. It is also possible that Snecma may opt for a 100% subsidiary route.

I missed Forge, they are working on their own engine as well, for UAVs.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Source based news*

India's window of opportunity is limited here for Rafale signature timeline
Mailer yesterday night suggests a new request has come out from Morocco for Rafales 
Its yet to be confirmed whether this is serious or its just a window shopping request to keep everyone interested.
Morocco in past have tried acquiring Rafales but deals did not mature.
The presumed date of November 15 is cited for Prz Francois Hollande for a visit and sealing of this deal if all talks by then are matured and deal is given a go ahead by Moroccon President..
The numbers are not revealed as of now but expected to replace *F-16s*
Expectation is Morocco may request a expedited order.
This implies India needs to get its act together for a possible signing before that in order to match the timelines already stated.
In case the deal happens with Morocco, it opens a new customer and further avenues for more Rafales in other places as well.

@Vergennes @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Taygibay @anant_s @MilSpec @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @others

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> The numbers are not revealed as of now but expected to replace *F-16s*



Morocco has got F 16 ; I dint know that

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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> Morocco has got F 16 ; I dint know that









The insiders said during ISIS intervention they found Block 52+ to be inadequate and faced some difficulties which are pushing them to acquire a much more modern platform preferably twin jet and having much better abilities.

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> The insiders said during ISIS intervention they found Block 52+ to be inadequate and faced some difficulties which are pushing them to acquire a much more modern platform preferably twin jet and having much better abilities.



But Morocco's economy is in bad shape 

Read this 

According to trading economics, Morocco external debt almost doubled since January 2013. According to Economy and Finance Ministry of Morocco, for today the total foreign debt is estimated at more than 40% of country`s GDP. The external debt changed from 277.7 billion dirhams in 2013 to 460 billion dirhams in 2016.

https://ask.naij.com/economics/what-countries-have-the-largest-external-debts-i25445.html

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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> But Morocco's economy is in bad shape
> 
> Read this
> 
> According to trading economics, Morocco external debt almost doubled since January 2013. According to Economy and Finance Ministry of Morocco, for today the total foreign debt is estimated at more than 40% of country`s GDP. The external debt changed from 277.7 billion dirhams in 2013 to 460 billion dirhams in 2016.
> 
> https://ask.naij.com/economics/what-countries-have-the-largest-external-debts-i25445.html


They are not the only ones with whom Morocco is talking. They are talking with Russia on Su-34 also.. and possibly a deal of either a lada or amur 1650 sub as well.. Thats why i said as per source it can be window dressing as well as its not fully confirmable.

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## anant_s

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Source based news*
> 
> India's window of opportunity is limited here for Rafale signature timeline
> Mailer yesterday night suggests a new request has come out from Morocco for Rafales
> Its yet to be confirmed whether this is serious or its just a window shopping request to keep everyone interested.
> Morocco in past have tried acquiring Rafales but deals did not mature.
> The presumed date of November 15 is cited for Prz Francois Hollande for a visit and sealing of this deal if all talks by then are matured and deal is given a go ahead by Moroccon President..
> The numbers are not revealed as of now but expected to replace *F-16s*
> Expectation is Morocco may request a expedited order.
> This implies India needs to get its act together for a possible signing before that in order to match the timelines already stated.
> In case the deal happens with Morocco, it opens a new customer and further avenues for more Rafales in other places as well.



India has now been playing this game of cat and mouse for a bit too long. I suppose its time the deal is done and dusted.

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## Vergennes

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Source based news*
> 
> India's window of opportunity is limited here for Rafale signature timeline
> Mailer yesterday night suggests a new request has come out from Morocco for Rafales
> Its yet to be confirmed whether this is serious or its just a window shopping request to keep everyone interested.
> Morocco in past have tried acquiring Rafales but deals did not mature.
> The presumed date of November 15 is cited for Prz Francois Hollande for a visit and sealing of this deal if all talks by then are matured and deal is given a go ahead by Moroccon President..
> The numbers are not revealed as of now but expected to replace *F-16s*
> Expectation is Morocco may request a expedited order.
> This implies India needs to get its act together for a possible signing before that in order to match the timelines already stated.
> In case the deal happens with Morocco, it opens a new customer and further avenues for more Rafales in other places as well.
> 
> @Vergennes @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Taygibay @anant_s @MilSpec @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @others





Stephen Cohen said:


> But Morocco's economy is in bad shape
> 
> Read this
> 
> According to trading economics, Morocco external debt almost doubled since January 2013. According to Economy and Finance Ministry of Morocco, for today the total foreign debt is estimated at more than 40% of country`s GDP. The external debt changed from 277.7 billion dirhams in 2013 to 460 billion dirhams in 2016.
> 
> https://ask.naij.com/economics/what-countries-have-the-largest-external-debts-i25445.html



Morocco has acquired american F16s with financial eases and low interest loans. The repayment is spread over 20 years as far as I remember.
There would be no problems fiding financial solutions with the King's treasury,we did so for the Fremm deal.....the payment is spread over years.

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## YouGotRouged

Stephen Cohen said:


> Morocco has got F 16 ; I dint know that



Its true, i remember finding out about it because of a coworker freaking out as her fiancee was flying one there for delivery to the MAF(?) and she was worried safety wise as there was an F-16 crash off the coast of Japan at the time...


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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Source based news*
> 
> India's window of opportunity is limited here for Rafale signature timeline
> Mailer yesterday night suggests a new request has come out from Morocco for Rafales


It seems to me that they bought the F-16 too much recently to shift to Rafale now.

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> It seems to me that they bought the F-16 too much recently to shift to Rafale now.


possible.. But they have also sent feelers for Su34 and subs as i said few posts above.. Their contention is that Block 52+ is not as per what they require for their campaigns..

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## BON PLAN

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Source based news*
> 
> India's window of opportunity is limited here for Rafale signature timeline
> Mailer yesterday night suggests a new request has come out from Morocco for Rafales
> Its yet to be confirmed whether this is serious or its just a window shopping request to keep everyone interested.
> Morocco in past have tried acquiring Rafales but deals did not mature.
> The presumed date of November 15 is cited for Prz Francois Hollande for a visit and sealing of this deal if all talks by then are matured and deal is given a go ahead by Moroccon President..
> The numbers are not revealed as of now but expected to replace *F-16s*
> Expectation is Morocco may request a expedited order.
> This implies India needs to get its act together for a possible signing before that in order to match the timelines already stated.
> In case the deal happens with Morocco, it opens a new customer and further avenues for more Rafales in other places as well.
> 
> @Vergennes @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Taygibay @anant_s @MilSpec @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @others


About Morocco : no such news yet in France....



Stephen Cohen said:


> Morocco has got F 16 ; I dint know that


The Rafale deal with Morocco failed in 2007, only for internal french reason.... (A fiasco !). USA offer a Financial help and that help to sell 24 F16.
So sad for us.

But I don't imagine they will scrap these relatively new planes. But they have upgraded Mirage F1 (fitted with Mica and AASM !) .... needed a replacement? why not. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> They are not the only ones with whom Morocco is talking. They are talking with Russia on Su-34 also.. and possibly a deal of either a lada or amur 1650 sub as well.. Thats why i said as per source it can be window dressing as well as its not fully confirmable.


Su34? probably no, because already ordered by Algeria. And Algeria and Morocco are not the best friends of the world.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> possible.. But they have also sent feelers for Su34 and subs as i said few posts above.. Their contention is that Block 52+ is not as per what they require for their campaigns..


And perhaps there is too much string attached?

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## R!CK

If the intent is there, Morocco deal will be no different to that of Egypt. It will be for a total of 24 units with an option for further 12 units. The whole negotiation phase will be centered on the same package, therefore requires very little time. No reason for financing also to be any different from the Egypt deal.








*F-5:* 20 F-5E (1980s) 12 F-5E (1990) [_24 F-5E upgraded to F-5TIII standard_]

*Mirage F1:* 30 Mirage F1CHs (1978-79) 20 Mirage F1EHs [_27 upgraded to ASTRAC MF2000 standard_]

*F-16:* 24 C/D Block 52+ (2011-2012)

Looking at their current fleet, its not necessary that Rafales are to replace F-16, but rather augment the F-16 by replacing other legacy platforms in the fleet. Majority of their legacy platforms are nearing its end of service time-frame.

Good Day!

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> And perhaps there is too much string attached?



Long term loans requested. 
Submarines wanted from Russia for a force to take on Algerians sub fleet for parity purpose. 
Russia ready to give line of credit for financing such purchases.. 
Algerians are looking to procure French weapons so by opting for Rafales or with Su34, Morocco wishes to regain edge over Algerians.
Algeria already operates Russian jets so there also a question whether such a acquisition from Russia will give them any kind of advantage or not. 
Thrown in the mix is a Algeria wanting 10+ Su35 to be bought soon
Thus Rafale gives them a counter due to both A2A and A2G roles along with F16 Blk 52+
Also old Dassault's jets even though upgraded cant counter more modern jets like the Su34 and later Su35.
Morocco thus needs to make a decision which enables them to have some breathing space.

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## Stephen Cohen

@PARIKRAMA 

India's Deal for 36 Dassault Rafale Stealth Fighter Jets Reaches Final Phase

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20160903/1044935772/india-dassault-rafale-fighter-jet.html


The Rafale fighter jet is believed to be the most dangerous warplane in the skies today combining semi-stealth capabilities with unparalleled thrust maneuvering providing air superiority.

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## CNL-PN-AA

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Source based news*
> 
> India's window of opportunity is limited here for Rafale signature timeline
> Mailer yesterday night suggests a new request has come out from Morocco for Rafales
> Its yet to be confirmed whether this is serious or its just a window shopping request to keep everyone interested.
> Morocco in past have tried acquiring Rafales but deals did not mature.
> The presumed date of November 15 is cited for Prz Francois Hollande for a visit and sealing of this deal if all talks by then are matured and deal is given a go ahead by Moroccon President..
> The numbers are not revealed as of now but expected to replace *F-16s*
> Expectation is Morocco may request a expedited order.
> This implies India needs to get its act together for a possible signing before that in order to match the timelines already stated.
> In case the deal happens with Morocco, it opens a new customer and further avenues for more Rafales in other places as well.
> 
> @Vergennes @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Taygibay @anant_s @MilSpec @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @others



Several high level discussions occured between France and Morocco since february concerning the Rafale ( and other military equipments ). Same with Malaysia, Canada, UAE, Finland, Belgium and 3 other potential customers.
For the Rafale production capacity at Mérignac, I give a clue by saying that in 2018 SAFRAN will produce 85 M88s.

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## PARIKRAMA

Stephen Cohen said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> India's Deal for 36 Dassault Rafale Stealth Fighter Jets Reaches Final Phase
> 
> Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20160903/1044935772/india-dassault-rafale-fighter-jet.html
> 
> 
> The Rafale fighter jet is believed to be the most dangerous warplane in the skies today combining semi-stealth capabilities with unparalleled thrust maneuvering providing air superiority.



Thx Bro,
+++ the article+++

The Rafale fighter jet is believed to be the most dangerous warplane in the skies today combining semi-stealth capabilities with unparalleled thrust maneuvering providing air superiority.

India’s quest to modernize its fighter aircraft fleet with the acquisition of 36 Rafale multirole fighter jets appears set to become a reality as the deal has been transmitted to the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) for final approval. The deal follows January negotiations between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Francois Hollande on an intergovernmental agreement providing for the sale of Dassault Rafale fighter jets to India.

The transmission of the acquisition file to the Prime Minister came as the Ministry of Defense cleared the negotiation committee’s report to be sent to the Cabinet Committee for Security (CCS) which consists of the Prime Minister’s Office, the Ministry of Home Affairs, the Ministry of External Affairs, the Ministry of Finance, and the Ministry of Defense

The 36 fighter jets are to be acquired for $8.8 billion and include advanced weapon systems modified for the Rafale including the Meteor beyond visual range (BVR) missile adding substantial lethality to the warplane. Initially, the deal was projected to be for $11.2 billion before New Delhi negotiated the price down threatening to walk if the arrangement was too expensive.

*The 1,188 mile per hour Dassault Rafale is slower than a number of fourth generation fighter jets, but fits into the category of 4.5 generation fighter jets – with some analysts considering it a full-force fifth generation jet – due to its semi-stealth capabilities.

The Dassault is not a full-spectrum stealth aircraft, but its design reduces radar cross-section (RCS) and it has a minimal infrared signature due to modifications of the tail-fin, fuselage, engine placement as well as the use of composite materials and serrated patterns for construction of the wing edges.

As a result, the fighter jet possesses many of the same stealth capabilities of the high-cost American F-35 fighter jet at less than half the unit cost of the beleaguered Lockheed warplane making it a favored vehicle for reconnaissance and anti-ship strike missions while still possessing air superiority.

+++*

Rarely i have read sputnik praising Rafale so much... They still compare on speed which is an old way of seeing things .. But the rest and specifically the half the cost of F35.It tells you what i said how USA wants us top seriously look at F35 and how Russia knows Rafale is not a threat but any american jet like F35 is to their own sales and support for super sukhois and FGFA/PAKFA.



CNL-PN-AA said:


> Several high level discussions occured between France and Morocco since february concerning the Rafale ( and other military equipments ). Same with Malaysia, Canada, UAE, Finland, Belgium and 3 other potential customers.
> For the Rafale production capacity at Mérignac, I give a clue by saying that in 2018 SAFRAN will produce 85 M88s.


good to see you back.. did you check your PM.. had discussed regarding your professional title with webby. Kindly do the needful for the same.

Also request you to post more regularly.. you are a vital asset to us as well as in other forum (ind def)

@Picdelamirand-oil - hope it answers your question..

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## BON PLAN

CNL-PN-AA said:


> Several high level discussions occured between France and Morocco since february concerning the Rafale ( and other military equipments ). Same with Malaysia, Canada, UAE, Finland, Belgium and 3 other potential customers.
> For the Rafale production capacity at Mérignac, I give a clue by saying that in 2018 SAFRAN will produce 85 M88s.


For Morocco : first time this week I read that.... a stealth nego?

85 M88 ? ie nearly 35 - 40 fighters (with spares). => 33 planes from Mérignac and some others from another line ???

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## CNL-PN-AA

BON PLAN said:


> For Morocco : first time this week I read that.... a stealth nego?
> 
> 85 M88 ? ie nearly 35 - 40 fighters (with spares). => 33 planes from Mérignac and some others from another line ???



1. No, just discussions
2. Yes

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## PARIKRAMA

*Source says*


In G20 there was a short meeting between PM NaMo and Prez Hollande on the sidelines where both leaders pull aside each other, sat and talked...
A verbal invitation has been given by PM NaMo for Rafale approval which he says will be intimated soon post necessary procedures (read CCS approval)
Also discussed is Scorpene data theft issue and how India feel's France should help some new tech upgrades for the same.
Prez Hollande said he has got to hear via Jean-Yves Le Drian and via Ambassador Alexandre Ziegler about the apprehensions of scorpene data theft as well as about the relationship progress in all other defence matters including Rafales.
Prez Hollande assured that France will do everything to strengthen and solidify the defence relationship and will ensure India does not feel any apprehensions as well as any doubt on French weapon systems or fear of future security breaches.
Prez Hollande said that he will work out a suitable date for the meet to formally sign as and when India formally sends the invitation out and said to have assured that he will be there for India France friendship moment.
Prez Hollande also said Rafales produced in India will be given full support from French government side and in case of any issue or roadblock, he has assured PM NaMo to look into the same personally.
Both PM NaMo and Prez Hollande agreed that DM MP + NSA Doval from Indian side and DM Le Drian + Amb Ziegler from French side should discuss more for all strategic project cooperation in order to expedite the things.

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Taygibay @surya kiran @GuardianRED @R!CK @Aero @Stephen Cohen https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @hellfire @randomradio @others

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## anant_s

PARIKRAMA said:


> Prez Hollande also said Rafales produced in India will be given full support from French government side and in case of any issue or roadblock, he has assured PM NaMo to look into the same personally.



This to me is a clearest indication that India is still negotiating for Rafales beyond 36 off the shelf purchase and they seem to be on track.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Source says*
> 
> Prez Hollande also said Rafales produced in India will be given full support from French government side and in case of any issue or roadblock, he has assured PM NaMo to look into the same personally.


So there will be "Rafale produced in India" added to the 36 in fly away conditions already to be signed in the Rafale approval moment.

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> So there will be "Rafale produced in India" added to the 36 in fly away conditions already to be signed in the Rafale approval moment.


Yes that is part of the agreement as it has been said before.. but DPP2016 strategic partnership have to be approved and revealed.. bcz under that this line will come up.

Suppliers are actually told about a increase in numbers for procurement from 2018-19 onwards. So this is a clear indication about the same. Fortunately this increase does not correspond to 33 jets but more..

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> So there will be "Rafale produced in India" added to the 36 in fly away conditions already to be signed in the Rafale approval moment.



Its about the 36. If its 36, 150 more at least will follow . The first 36 is what matters....

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## PARIKRAMA

Something interesting for all of you. I am sure @Ankit Kumar 002 might have posted this before







But there was a much deeper point raised in Lok Sabha Discussion on 12.08.2016 on IAF topic. That actually clears out many doubts. I am quoting only the portions relevant to this thread topic and removing other portions (bcz at the top of the pic you can understand the reason)




​Dr Subhas Ramrao Bhambre is MoS Defence. 

Thats in the Lok Sabha, in parliament. There is no mention of other contenders not even the point that its under discussion. Unless DM MP does not share things with MoS Bhambre, its a clear pointer of where other so called offers stand at really..

And like the words here a lot - procurement and planned induction. ..40 fighter squadrons will be added...

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Source says*
> 
> 
> In G20 there was a short meeting between PM NaMo and Prez Hollande on the sidelines where both leaders pull aside each other, sat and talked...
> A verbal invitation has been given by PM NaMo for Rafale approval which he says will be intimated soon post necessary procedures (read CCS approval)
> Also discussed is Scorpene data theft issue and how India feel's France should help some new tech upgrades for the same.
> Prez Hollande said he has got to hear via Jean-Yves Le Drian and via Ambassador Alexandre Ziegler about the apprehensions of scorpene data theft as well as about the relationship progress in all other defence matters including Rafales.
> Prez Hollande assured that France will do everything to strengthen and solidify the defence relationship and will ensure India does not feel any apprehensions as well as any doubt on French weapon systems or fear of future security breaches.
> Prez Hollande said that he will work out a suitable date for the meet to formally sign as and when India formally sends the invitation out and said to have assured that he will be there for India France friendship moment.
> Prez Hollande also said Rafales produced in India will be given full support from French government side and in case of any issue or roadblock, he has assured PM NaMo to look into the same personally.
> Both PM NaMo and Prez Hollande agreed that DM MP + NSA Doval from Indian side and DM Le Drian + Amb Ziegler from French side should discuss more for all strategic project cooperation in order to expedite the things.
> 
> @Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Taygibay @surya kiran @GuardianRED @R!CK @Aero @Stephen Cohen https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @hellfire @randomradio @others


Do we have a Tentitive Timeline to when the Approval will be made? + Is there True to the Morrocan request for aircrafts?

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## Ankit Kumar 002

PARIKRAMA said:


> Something interesting for all of you. I am sure @Ankit Kumar 002 might have posted this before
> 
> View attachment 331700
> 
> 
> But there was a much deeper point raised in Lok Sabha Discussion on 12.08.2016 on IAF topic. That actually clears out many doubts. I am quoting only the portions relevant to this thread topic and removing other portions (bcz at the top of the pic you can understand the reason)
> 
> View attachment 331702
> ​Dr Subhas Ramrao Bhambre is MoS Defence.
> 
> Thats in the Lok Sabha, in parliament. There is no mention of other contenders not even the point that its under discussion. Unless DM MP does not share things with MoS Bhambre, its a clear pointer of where other so called offers stand at really..
> 
> And like the words here a lot - procurement and planned induction. ..40 fighter squadrons will be added...



Anything in the world except single engines.... and they should deliver it quick. 

The Mig27s flying make me really sick. Mig21s are fine , actually more than fine....but 27s need to be replaced quick.



GuardianRED said:


> Do we have a Tentitive Timeline to when the Approval will be made? + Is there True to the Morrocan request for aircrafts?



Dassault is looking into 4-5 major new markets except India , shouldn't be a surprise if its Morocco. Canada and Malaysia along with UAE. 

No official tentative dates as of yet.

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## PARIKRAMA

GuardianRED said:


> Do we have a Tentitive Timeline to when the Approval will be made? + Is there True to the Morrocan request for aircrafts?



Approval will happen soon and signing within next 40 days or even less.

On Morocco, Courtesy @CNL-PN-AA

_Several high level discussions occured between France and Morocco since february concerning the Rafale ( and other military equipments ). Same with Malaysia, Canada, UAE, Finland, Belgium and 3 other potential customers.
For the Rafale production capacity at Mérignac, I give a clue by saying that in 2018 SAFRAN will produce 85 M88s._

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-310#post-8650741

look at safran engine numbers.. its much beyond the capacity of production and he confirmed it subsequently.



Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Anything in the world except single engines.... and they should deliver it quick.
> 
> The Mig27s flying make me really sick. Mig21s are fine , actually more than fine....but 27s need to be replaced quick.
> 
> Dassault is looking into 4-5 major new markets except India , shouldn't be a surprise if its Morocco. Canada and Malaysia along with UAE.
> 
> No official tentative dates as of yet.



Both 21s and 27s need replacement urgent.. need to boost LCA production rate and also Rafales MII part so that quicker induction can be done.

I will be happy if MII rate of production is more than 1 squadron per year for Rafales.. Bcz only then it makes sense and it will be very good if its closer to ~1.5-2 squadrons a year...

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## Ankit Kumar 002

PARIKRAMA said:


> Approval will happen soon and signing within next 40 days or even less.
> 
> On Morocco, Courtesy @CNL-PN-AA
> 
> _Several high level discussions occured between France and Morocco since february concerning the Rafale ( and other military equipments ). Same with Malaysia, Canada, UAE, Finland, Belgium and 3 other potential customers.
> For the Rafale production capacity at Mérignac, I give a clue by saying that in 2018 SAFRAN will produce 85 M88s._
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-310#post-8650741
> 
> look at safran engine numbers.. its much beyond the capacity of production and he confirmed it subsequently.
> 
> 
> 
> Both 21s and 27s need replacement urgent.. need to boost LCA production rate and also Rafales MII part so that quicker induction can be done.
> 
> I will be happy if MII rate of production is more than 1 squadron per year for Rafales.. Bcz only then it makes sense and it will be very good if its closer to ~1.5-2 squadrons a year...



Isn't Belgium getting F35s?last time heard USA "almost "added Belgium as its F35 customer...

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## Aero

PARIKRAMA said:


> Something interesting for all of you. I am sure @Ankit Kumar 002 might have posted this before
> 
> View attachment 331700
> 
> 
> But there was a much deeper point raised in Lok Sabha Discussion on 12.08.2016 on IAF topic. That actually clears out many doubts. I am quoting only the portions relevant to this thread topic and removing other portions (bcz at the top of the pic you can understand the reason)
> 
> View attachment 331702
> ​Dr Subhas Ramrao Bhambre is MoS Defence.
> 
> Thats in the Lok Sabha, in parliament. There is no mention of other contenders not even the point that its under discussion. Unless DM MP does not share things with MoS Bhambre, its a clear pointer of where other so called offers stand at really..
> 
> And like the words here a lot - procurement and planned induction. ..40 fighter squadrons will be added...


40 new Fighter Squadrons means going past 42 Squadrons of Fighters as only Mig-27/21 needs replacement now (Mig-29 may be later) & Su-30s and Tejas will stay for quite a while with IAF.

P.S: They should see all aspects as you mentioned in your previous posts and instead Rushing for Make in India F-16/F-18, we should clearly examine all available options to us as ToT from US will be restricted to certain level.



PARIKRAMA said:


> look at safran engine numbers.. its much beyond the capacity of production and he confirmed it subsequently.


Dassault will probably speed up production rate.
I wonder what they will do with that odd 85th M88. (Just saying)

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## GuardianRED

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Dassault is looking into 4-5 major new markets except India , shouldn't be a surprise if its Morocco. Canada and Malaysia along with UAE.
> 
> No official tentative dates as of yet.





PARIKRAMA said:


> Approval will happen soon and signing within next 40 days or even less.
> 
> On Morocco, Courtesy @CNL-PN-AA
> 
> _Several high level discussions occured between France and Morocco since february concerning the Rafale ( and other military equipments ). Same with Malaysia, Canada, UAE, Finland, Belgium and 3 other potential customers.
> For the Rafale production capacity at Mérignac, I give a clue by saying that in 2018 SAFRAN will produce 85 M88s._
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-310#post-8650741
> 
> look at safran engine numbers.. its much beyond the capacity of production and he confirmed it subsequently.
> 
> 
> 
> Both 21s and 27s need replacement urgent.. need to boost LCA production rate and also Rafales MII part so that quicker induction can be done.
> 
> I will be happy if MII rate of production is more than 1 squadron per year for Rafales.. Bcz only then it makes sense and it will be very good if its closer to ~1.5-2 squadrons a year...



For the UAEAF the negotiation with Dassault has always being a sticky one. One of the clauses they have, is to take back (or have them sold) all the Mirage 2000-9s in addition to procure the Rafale. Any idea this issue has been solved?

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## Aero

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Isn't Belgium getting F35s?last time heard USA "almost "added Belgium as its F35 customer...


F-35 for belgium is not yet confirmed as there is some opposition.
http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/politiek/1.2545430

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## Ankit Kumar 002

GuardianRED said:


> For the UAEAF the negotiation with Dassault has always being a sticky one. One of the clauses they have, is to take back (or have them sold) all the Mirage 2000-9s in addition to procure the Rafale. Any idea this issue has been solved?



They tried to sell off a few to Egypt too , but it hasn't happened yet. 
How I wish .......

Coming back , yes UAE deal is stuck right now....

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## Taygibay

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Coming back , yes UAE deal is stuck right now....



No, no! Delayed until 2018.
The UAE don't really need a buy soon for one & this allows
them to circumvent the Fr elections for two and lastly means
that the F3 R standard*** will be completed so they don't have
to pay for any upgrade they want that it already contains.



PARIKRAMA said:


> And like the words here a lot - procurement and planned induction. ..40 fighter squadrons will be added...



Try to add all those is more like it :
All MKIs + all Rafales + all Tejas = 40 sqdns.
Which would be really nice if it happened.

Great day all, Tay.

*** Due in 2018.

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## GuardianRED

Taygibay said:


> No, no! Delayed until 2018.
> The UAE don't really need a buy soon for one, this allows
> them to circumvent the Fr elections for two and lastly means
> that the F3 R standard will be completed so they don't have
> to pay for any upgrade they want that it already contains.
> 
> 
> 
> Try to add all those is more like it :
> All MKIs + all Rafales + all Tejas = 40 sqdns.
> Which would be really nice if it happened.
> 
> Great day all, Tay.


What abt the Mirage 2000-9s?

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## BON PLAN

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Isn't Belgium getting F35s?last time heard USA "almost "added Belgium as its F35 customer...


Nothing is made in Belgium. The hard piece is the nuclear free bomb integration....



GuardianRED said:


> What abt the Mirage 2000-9s?


Sold to Morocco? Egypt? Irak? India? ....

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## Taygibay

GuardianRED said:


> What abt the Mirage 2000-9s?




I think they have more chances of being redistributed amongst small and / or
"poor" Arab AFs. Iraq has been discussed a few months back for example
although their Shia side is probably a blocking point.

And India has no good reason to want these unless the Rafale deal fails.

This will remain a sticking point too. You need a good enough AF for such
highly capable fighters but one with room for them too which is pretty rare.

Maybe they could be pooled in a GCC/Arab League unit?

We'll see; best of days to you, Tay.

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## Agent_47

Taygibay said:


> No, no! Delayed until 2018.
> The UAE don't really need a buy soon for one & this allows
> them to circumvent the Fr elections for two and lastly means
> that the F3 R standard will be completed so they don't have
> to pay for any upgrade they want that it already contains.


What about uprated/new engines?


----------



## newindiandefence

Is India buying f3r model or anything else.??
or Only with metore bvr ?
Which engine current or upgraded?



newindiandefence said:


> Is India buying f3r model or anything else.??
> or Only with metore bvr ?
> Which engine current or upgraded?


 
How many additional changes will India want ? 
Brahmos , astra bvr missile, Israeli helmet mountain display , any Russian??

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## airmarshal

Please dont take it as India vs Pakistan but help us understand whats taking so long? After all even the fly away request was made almost 2 years now.

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## PARIKRAMA

newindiandefence said:


> Is India buying f3r model or anything else.??
> or Only with metore bvr ?
> Which engine current or upgraded?
> 
> 
> 
> How many additional changes will India want ?
> Brahmos , astra bvr missile, Israeli helmet mountain display , any Russian??


Customised edition better than F3R with uprated engines and meteor BVR and IRST as well.
Indian arsenal integration to be done locally and recertified as part of customized package.
HMDS surely.. Dash3 in Frontline but expectation are some elements of planned upgraded product feature may be added.



airmarshal said:


> Please dont take it as India vs Pakistan but help us understand whats taking so long? After all even the fly away request was made almost 2 years now.


Price haggling , customizations, finer points of tech transfer under offset, and manufacturing line setup negotiations. These are the four key issues which caused delay from April 2015 onwards time till date ..
The deal should get approved from Cabinet in a short time and contract signing should happen within 40 odd days

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## newindiandefence

Thank parikrama ...

What will be tracking range of IRST on rafale for a f16 type object??

Can I know IRST range of tejas (Mark1a,mk2) , sukhoi (30,super sukhoi,fgfa) , Mig series? And Chinese j31,j20

Which top ten fighter jets have best IRST?

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## Taygibay

Agent_47 said:


> What about uprated/new engines?



Well, there are two variants of the uprated M88.

When the engine was introduced, development continued of course.
That is where the 9T figure came up that was an early UAE goal, their
fear running along the _hot temperatures eating power_ line. Since however,
France opened BA 104 in Al-Dhafra and Rafales have shown they can
do the job ... including daily sorties against Daesh with heavy SCALPs.

Safran felt confident that they could reach 9T for a similar if bigger motor.
The bigger is not a huge problem though, still fitting inside the airplane if
with a new center of gravity and so new command and control "laws" but ...
you'd also need new enlarged intakes to feed that motor enough air to reach
that power output. And that is a bigger bug, requiring a full re-design of the
front of the plane. When you consider that one of the Rafale's strengths is
its high coefficient aerodynamics ( finesse, etc ), it becomes very touchy.

Two decisions came out of this situation. First, content with the power it had,
the AdlA ( / DGA ) asked for more durability at ISO power instead ( requiring no changes ).
Second, possible use of a 9T version was set back to the 2026+ MLU. If, as
most modern jets, a weight increase happens and makes a 9T output important,
the re-design could be piled on with an evolved cell with extra stealth. Doing
both at the same time saves energy and money.

Since then, Safran kept working and are now suggesting an 83 kN variant [ 8.3 T ]
without new intakes gaining from the original 75 kN and supposedly as durable.
For France, the need is not sufficient to warrant the change but depending on
what price tag the ex-SNECMA puts on it, other customers could easily choose
to have that version in their Rafales. India and UAE have a possible synergy there.

That's pretty much where things stand today.
I hope it helps, Tay.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/772682494319656960
Look at Dhoval.....

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## airmarshal

There was a very good thread started by some Indian member regarding Rafale, its technical capabilities and its systems. Cant seem to find it


----------



## CNL-PN-AA

Following is what I wrote a few months ago on another forum:

Two good friends of mine ( Safran and french ministry of defence ) told me that Qatar would be the first customer to receive the F3R standard with an evolution of the M88-3 project rated at 8.3/8.5t without modification of the Rafale frame. It would be due to new steps in alloys technology reached by Safran.

CNL-PN-AA, Oct 16, 2015

This new M88 would have same consumption and maintenance as the current engine.

CNL-PN-AA, Oct 16, 2015

Picdelamirand-oil said: ↑
So it could be retrofitted on existing Rafale, Rafale M for exemple?

Absolutely! The shape / dimensions / weight would be the same. Some internal modules would be modified and could be retrofitted on former engines. The use of new alloys would allow to increase turbine speeds, temperatures, airflow rate and pressure ratio and thus enable more power. Also planned is a new ECU. Thrust vectoring control will come shortly after with a light, simple and reliable new system.

CNL-PN-AA, Oct 16, 2015

As I already said, the F3R will come with an improved engine. But an other system will also be improved ... And Captor E will have to wait at least 10 years to match it !

CNL-PN-AA, Dec 19, 2015

INCAS in 2018. M88 improvement for all F3Rs. Retrofit possible for all precedent versions.

CNL-PN-AA, Dec 20, 2015

Tragedac for F4 and Melbaa for MLU. M88 evolution ( 8,2/8,5t ) and INCAS would come in F3-R sooner than scheduled, thanks to export orders, OPEX and good tests. Many things could change and be accelerated in the coming months.

CNL-PN-AA, Dec 20, 2015

MLU in 2025 seems correct. F4 could come sooner than scheduled and be called F3-R2, around 2021/2022. An important standard in 2023 with the revolution MLU in 2025 woulb be strange...

CNL-PN-AA, Dec 20, 2015


Please don' t ask me anything about thrust vectoring.
A new M88 will come after 2025 with thrust far above 9 tons.
And concerning the 85 M88s that will be produced in 2018, I should have written " the equivalent of 85 ". Spare modules are counted. But it is at least 70 assembled engines.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

New M-88 on Rafale M allow to increase MTOW on CATOBAR and make easier to use it on STOBAR.

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## zebra7

Taygibay said:


> Well, there are two variants of the uprated M88.
> 
> When the engine was introduced, development continued of course.
> That is where the 9T figure came up that was an early UAE goal, their
> fear running along the _hot temperatures eating power_ line. Since however,
> France opened BA 104 in Al-Dhafra and Rafales have shown they can
> do the job ... including daily sorties against Daesh with heavy SCALPs.
> 
> Safran felt confident that they could reach 9T for a similar if bigger motor.
> The bigger is not a huge problem though, still fitting inside the airplane if
> with a new center of gravity and so new command and control "laws" but ...
> you'd also need new enlarged intakes to feed that motor enough air to reach
> that power output. And that is a bigger bug, requiring a full re-design of the
> front of the plane. When you consider that one of the Rafale's strengths is
> its high coefficient aerodynamics ( finesse, etc ), it becomes very touchy.
> 
> Two decisions came out of this situation. First, content with the power it had,
> the AdlA ( / DGA ) asked for more durability at ISO power instead ( requiring no changes ).
> Second, possible use of a 9T version was set back to the 2026+ MLU. If, as
> most modern jets, a weight increase happens and makes a 9T output important,
> the re-design could be piled on with an evolved cell with extra stealth. Doing
> both at the same time saves energy and money.
> 
> Since then, Safran kept working and are now suggesting an 83 kN variant [ 8.3 T ]
> without new intakes gaining from the original 75 kN and supposedly as durable.
> For France, the need is not sufficient to warrant the change but depending on
> what price tag the ex-SNECMA puts on it, other customers could easily choose
> to have that version in their Rafales. India and UAE have a possible synergy there.
> 
> That's pretty much where things stand today.
> I hope it helps, Tay.



Excellent Input, thankx buddy

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## PARIKRAMA

*Rafale deal at final clearance level, may get go ahead soon*
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Sep 08, 2016, 06.31 AM IST

NEW DELHI: It's going to be a big test for Indo-French relations as the Rafale fighter jet deal has reached the final clearance level after protracted negotiations. *The price of the combat aircraft has come down to 7.25 billion and Paris is offering cutting-edge technology, including jet engine knowhow, to India. *

* Sources told ET the deal for 36 fighter aircraft could be cleared as early as the next meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), with the defence ministry completing all formalities and negotiations with the French side. *

A decision on the deal is critical for France that has suffered a setback with the leak of sensitive documents of the Scorpene submarine project, currently being executed in Mumbai. 

Also, French firms have come under the scanner for donations to an NGO operated by a Delhi-based consultant. The fighter jet deal, which was first announced during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Paris trip in April 2015, has been stuck for over a year on pricing and offset issues. The final terms of contract are currently being vetted by the Prime Minister's Office (PMO). 

Sources said the issues raised by the PMO, after a scrutiny of documents, have been clarified by the defence ministry. *"Unless there are any unforeseen complications, the jet fighter contract should happen soon. The price has been substantially lowered after several rounds of tough negotiations," an official aware of the developments told ET. *

* As part of the deal, France will invest 50 per cent of the value of the deal in the domestic defence and aviation sectors as an offset clause. France has offered 16 critical technologies to India as part of the deal. *









* These technologies, which would be valued as part of the offset package, would be shared with the Defence Research and Development Organisation. The French side has also expressed its willingness to share technology and invest 1-billion to revive India's combat jet engine project, Kaveri. The plan is to develop an upgraded gas turbine to power indigenous Tejas fighters by 2020. *

* The French side will also assist Indian private industry in setting up a global supply chain as part of the offset plan. Among other projects, French firm Dassault is likely to set up a line in India with a private partner to manufacture major structural parts for its Falcon executive jet aircraft. *

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-ahead-soon/articleshow/54158710.cms?from=mdr

+++
Enjoy all.. All the thread followers know whats written in this article is there in this sticky for so so long time





I said about CCS point time and again here..

Wait for the CCS, as i said here verbal invitations are given already





Enjoy..

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## anant_s

PARIKRAMA said:


> The price of the combat aircraft has come down to 7.25 billion


Hopefully this is a Win Win deal for both France and India!



PARIKRAMA said:


> *Paris is offering cutting-edge technology, including jet engine knowhow, to India. *



Heard this yesterday night in a news program.
Does anyone have idea to what sort of co-operation France has offered? If true, this would mean that France is actually honoring one of its commitment/offer in MMRCA competition to help India on Jet Engine front.
Can't be more exciting.




@Abingdonboy @Vergennes @Taygibay @Roybot

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## Sri

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Rafale deal at final clearance level, may get go ahead soon*
> By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Sep 08, 2016, 06.31 AM IST
> 
> NEW DELHI: It's going to be a big test for Indo-French relations as the Rafale fighter jet deal has reached the final clearance level after protracted negotiations. *The price of the combat aircraft has come down to 7.25 billion and Paris is offering cutting-edge technology, including jet engine knowhow, to India. *
> 
> * Sources told ET the deal for 36 fighter aircraft could be cleared as early as the next meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), with the defence ministry completing all formalities and negotiations with the French side. *
> 
> A decision on the deal is critical for France that has suffered a setback with the leak of sensitive documents of the Scorpene submarine project, currently being executed in Mumbai.
> 
> Also, French firms have come under the scanner for donations to an NGO operated by a Delhi-based consultant. The fighter jet deal, which was first announced during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Paris trip in April 2015, has been stuck for over a year on pricing and offset issues. The final terms of contract are currently being vetted by the Prime Minister's Office (PMO).
> 
> Sources said the issues raised by the PMO, after a scrutiny of documents, have been clarified by the defence ministry. *"Unless there are any unforeseen complications, the jet fighter contract should happen soon. The price has been substantially lowered after several rounds of tough negotiations," an official aware of the developments told ET. *
> 
> * As part of the deal, France will invest 50 per cent of the value of the deal in the domestic defence and aviation sectors as an offset clause. France has offered 16 critical technologies to India as part of the deal. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * These technologies, which would be valued as part of the offset package, would be shared with the Defence Research and Development Organisation. The French side has also expressed its willingness to share technology and invest 1-billion to revive India's combat jet engine project, Kaveri. The plan is to develop an upgraded gas turbine to power indigenous Tejas fighters by 2020. *
> 
> * The French side will also assist Indian private industry in setting up a global supply chain as part of the offset plan. Among other projects, French firm Dassault is likely to set up a line in India with a private partner to manufacture major structural parts for its Falcon executive jet aircraft. *
> 
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-ahead-soon/articleshow/54158710.cms?from=mdr
> 
> +++
> Enjoy all.. All the thread followers know whats written in this article is there in this sticky for so so long time
> View attachment 332297
> 
> 
> I said about CCS point time and again here..
> 
> Wait for the CCS, as i said here verbal invitations are given already
> View attachment 332298
> 
> 
> Enjoy..



The 7th point is of great interest. will there be any Make in India deal signed along with off-shelf? I mean what is the total numbers discussed ( 36 +??). 
Thanks in Advance...

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## PARIKRAMA

Sri said:


> The 7th point is of great interest. will there be any Make in India deal signed along with off-shelf? I mean what is the total numbers discussed ( 36 +??).
> Thanks in Advance...


We have to wait for strategic partnership to be unveiled by DM MP properly. The Make In India is there surely. But formally that will be announced by next year march.

The numbers are too huge bcz its both IAF and IN combined. As i said earlier the Rafales in India over the time will cost at an average of around Rs 540 Crs fully loaded with weapons when its made from Indian plant. So no one will like to miss that opportunity there, unless someone betters this deal with more benefits



PARIKRAMA said:


> he price of the combat aircraft has come down to 7.25 billion and Paris is offering cutting-edge technology, including jet engine knowhow, to India.



Even though mind says its Euro, i hope as per my heart it turns out $
Euro 7.25 Bn - Mind
$7.25 Bn - heart

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## kaykay

airmarshal said:


> There was a very good thread started by some Indian member regarding Rafale, its technical capabilities and its systems. Cant seem to find it


You mean @DrSomnath999 's Rafale mini encyclopaedia thread? Surely thats the best Rafale thread on PDF.

@Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Taygibay @Vergennes 

https://defence.pk/threads/rafales-mini-encylopedia-for-its-fanboyz.163714/

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## Sri

PARIKRAMA said:


> We have to wait for strategic partnership to be unveiled by DM MP properly. The Make In India is there surely. But formally that will be announced by next year march.
> 
> The numbers are too huge bcz its both IAF and IN combined. As i said earlier the Rafales in India over the time will cost at an average of around Rs 540 Crs fully loaded with weapons when its made from Indian plant. So no one will like to miss that opportunity there, unless someone betters this deal with more benefits
> 
> 
> 
> Even though mind says its Euro, i hope as per my heart it turns out $
> Euro 7.25 Bn - Mind
> $7.25 Bn - heart



Wow If its costs around 540 Cr for fully loaded ( that's a steal). Even the Su MKI flyaway costing around 420 Cr.
(http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...velopment-is-mere-purchase/article8199677.ece ) - of-course some part of it is due to HAL productivity issues, also latest lot is expected to cost around 500 Cr
(http://defence-blog.com/news/indian-air-force-to-buy-40-more-su-30mki-fighters.html).
Keeping my fingers crossed and touch wood 
And Definitely Rafale is atleast .5 generation ahead of MKI

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## [Bregs]

If the deal is signed as per this news report then its going to be a major push to Indo-French defense and strategic relationship to a new high level, hopefully when contract is signed there is some reference about MII angle too

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## airmarshal

kaykay said:


> You mean @DrSomnath999 's Rafale mini encyclopaedia thread? Surely thats the best Rafale thread on PDF.
> 
> @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Taygibay @Vergennes
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/rafales-mini-encylopedia-for-its-fanboyz.163714/



Yes!!! Thank you so much. @DrSomnath999's is the best thread on Rafale on this website.

If there was a way to hit 'Thanks' twice!

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## cloud_9

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/773830209820917761

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## sathya

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Rafale deal at final clearance level, may get go ahead soon*
> By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Sep 08, 2016, 06.31 AM IST
> 
> NEW DELHI: It's going to be a big test for Indo-French relations as the Rafale fighter jet deal has reached the final clearance level after protracted negotiations. *The price of the combat aircraft has come down to 7.25 billion and Paris is offering cutting-edge technology, including jet engine knowhow, to India. *
> 
> * Sources told ET the deal for 36 fighter aircraft could be cleared as early as the next meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), with the defence ministry completing all formalities and negotiations with the French side. *
> 
> A decision on the deal is critical for France that has suffered a setback with the leak of sensitive documents of the Scorpene submarine project, currently being executed in Mumbai.
> 
> Also, French firms have come under the scanner for donations to an NGO operated by a Delhi-based consultant. The fighter jet deal, which was first announced during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Paris trip in April 2015, has been stuck for over a year on pricing and offset issues. The final terms of contract are currently being vetted by the Prime Minister's Office (PMO).
> 
> Sources said the issues raised by the PMO, after a scrutiny of documents, have been clarified by the defence ministry. *"Unless there are any unforeseen complications, the jet fighter contract should happen soon. The price has been substantially lowered after several rounds of tough negotiations," an official aware of the developments told ET. *
> 
> * As part of the deal, France will invest 50 per cent of the value of the deal in the domestic defence and aviation sectors as an offset clause. France has offered 16 critical technologies to India as part of the deal. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * These technologies, which would be valued as part of the offset package, would be shared with the Defence Research and Development Organisation. The French side has also expressed its willingness to share technology and invest 1-billion to revive India's combat jet engine project, Kaveri. The plan is to develop an upgraded gas turbine to power indigenous Tejas fighters by 2020. *
> 
> * The French side will also assist Indian private industry in setting up a global supply chain as part of the offset plan. Among other projects, French firm Dassault is likely to set up a line in India with a private partner to manufacture major structural parts for its Falcon executive jet aircraft. *
> 
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-ahead-soon/articleshow/54158710.cms?from=mdr
> 
> +++
> Enjoy all.. All the thread followers know whats written in this article is there in this sticky for so so long time
> View attachment 332297
> 
> 
> I said about CCS point time and again here..
> 
> Wait for the CCS, as i said here verbal invitations are given already
> View attachment 332298
> 
> 
> Enjoy..



All the tech sharing offsets are in 36 aircraft purchase itself or linked to make in India crafts ?

What I mean is, are we going to get more again with make in India deal ?

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## Abingdonboy

cloud_9 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/773830209820917761


God, only now Shiv Aroor/Livefist are reporting this?

And these bufoons are whom the vast majority of the Indian population rely on for the news.......

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## Picdelamirand-oil

anant_s said:


>

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## debspark90

Any idea when is the next CCS meet?

And in the report somewhere it said to be signed there on. But it needs French delegates to come here right ?

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## PARIKRAMA

sathya said:


> All the tech sharing offsets are in 36 aircraft purchase itself or linked to make in India crafts ?
> 
> What I mean is, are we going to get more again with make in India deal ?



Make in India deal is separate . Here all offsets are under the present 36 order. There will be an IGA where implicitly the manufacturing line under MII will be mentioned and conditionals as well.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

debspark90 said:


> Any idea when is the next CCS meet?
> 
> And in the report somewhere it said to be signed there on. But it needs French delegates to come here right ?





> Prez Hollande said that he will work out a suitable date for the meet to formally sign as and when India formally sends the invitation out and said to have assured that he will be there for India France friendship moment.



Source: https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ssions-thread-2.351407/page-310#ixzz4JftfYbB7

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## Ali Zadi

"16 critical technologies" I wonder what they are one is engine tech and other might be related to sub's but others what are they. Now I just hope not all of these 16 are related to the engine/aircraft design. @PARIKRAMA I know you can shed some light on this, really exciting on these 16 tech's.

Now about the M88 is there any change of any western IP in it at all? 

If UK was out of the EU it would be a good thing for India in the way France is a good thing for India. Dealing with EU as a whole is very problematic and much similar to dealing with US

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## zebra7

Ali Zadi said:


> "16 critical technologies" I wonder what they are one is engine tech and other might be related to sub's but others what are they. Now I just hope not all of these 16 are related to the engine/aircraft design. @PARIKRAMA I know you can shed some light on this, really exciting on these 16 tech's.
> 
> Now about the M88 is there any change of any western IP in it at all?
> 
> If UK was out of the EU it would be a good thing for India in the way France is a good thing for India. Dealing with EU as a whole is very problematic and much similar to dealing with US



Don't live in the illusion brother -- The Engine tech. have the right of the respective OEMs who spend lot of money acquiring it , and selling them is the means they earn the profit, and no way any OEM is gonna gave it to India. In short we have to acquire it ourself by failing, trying, failing, trying again and again.

Atleast we have a working Engine Kaveri, and what is needed is the Supersonic flight testing in the MIG-29 airframe to certify it. Since it is flat rated, so the specs might look inferior on paper, but in reality not too far, and BTW the original target for the Kaveri have been meet, it is the new requirement where we are failing, and when talking about the technologies e.g SCB Single Crystal Blade tech. who says we don't have, we have but not of the lattest generation. There are few tech. which we don't have at all such as thermal barrier coating for the hot sections, and the mettalurgical composition to sustain its rigidity till 1700 degree, at present we are at 1400 degree Celsius.

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## Ali Zadi

zebra7 said:


> Don't live in the illusion brother .



That I already know in fact the core of the engine is the red tape part of the engine. But here the paths deviate whereas the Americans wont share any details what so ever there is a change that the French might. These core details can help the Kabini core to come to light instead of using M88 core with the Kaveri. French are obviously willing to share more than American's, any info on the core would be pretty useful.

The part about Single Crystal Blade is correct India does make those but the fact remains they have failed with Kaveri because on lower tolerance thus we need them and a bit of other things to increase the compression ration.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

An extract of what I post on another forum in february 2013


> To make a good turbofan is not science it's art! Because with maths you cannot compute the optimum, you just be able to verify the perf of a turbofan that you want to build. The equations are not reversibles. So somebody have to design the turbofan with intuition and verify if the perfs are good enough, then modify a little and verify. You need a kind of wizard and it is very rare to have a good wizard. France have maximum 3, GB the same, US 10, Russia 0, China 0, India 0.


And this in September 2013


> It's not exactly that. France would certaily agree to share its knowledge as part of a strategic alliance, and I think that these stategic alliance will come with the Rafale contract. The problem is that it's not easy!
> Such "wizard" people emerge as a result of all an industry, you cannot decide that you need one more and train a people for him to become efficient. And the ressource is so limited that we don't want to give our expert. It is why we have proposed to use the hot part of M88 inside Kaveri (with adaptation) it is possible because it already exist a M88 version at 90 kN. But India seems to want to design itself the core, so a "wizard" people is needed but non available. This kind of people emerge when you start with simple system and evolve to more complex, but India want to make at first the more complex possible.


I think a french "wizard" will certainly be available for you to improve your Kaveri in the context of strategic alliance, but he will remain French! If you want your own "wizard" he have to emerge from your engine industry.

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## R!CK

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> An extract of what I post on another forum in february 2013
> 
> And this in September 2013
> 
> I think a french "wizard" will certainly be available for you to improve your Kaveri in the context of strategic alliance, but he will remain French! If you want your own "wizard" he have to emerge from your engine industry.



Precise!

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## zebra7

Ali Zadi said:


> That I already know in fact the core of the engine is the red tape part of the engine. But here the paths deviate whereas the Americans wont share any details what so ever there is a change that the French might. These core details can help the Kabini core to come to light instead of using M88 core with the Kaveri. French are obviously willing to share more than American's, any info on the core would be pretty useful.
> 
> The part about Single Crystal Blade is correct India does make those but the fact remains they have failed with Kaveri because on lower tolerance thus we need them and a bit of other things to increase the compression ration.



No actually French max would only give recomendation on the Kaveri, and will never give the tech.

I don't know, what you understand by the tech. but what tech. needed here is the technology to manufacture it of the level of quality and that too economically and feasibility. There is always be a difference between the lab product and the industrial product.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

@PARIKRAMA
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...824368121104:mf_story_key.5297861734490939226

This time he did included Rafale....

But notice two more things. 

1. " BLOCK 70 SUPER VIPER ". 
and 2. No Russian Option.....

Some of the responses.... Utha Le Re Baba , Utha le.

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## randomradio

Heavy aircraft:
Su-30MKI - We will have 267(touch wood) of these by 2019. No more.

Medium aircraft:
Rafale - 36+120

Light aircraft:
LCA Mk1/A - 120
Gripen - 120

That's about it. IAF is not buying the F-16 or the SH. IAF is not buying the LCA Mk2 either.

We will have 440 old jets, MKI, Mig-29, M2K and Jag, comprising 22 squadrons.

The remaining 20 squadrons will see 8 squadrons of Rafale, 6 squadrons of LCA and 6 squadrons of Gripen.

This will be the fleet by 2027, not counting attrition.

As I had pointed out earlier, we will be getting 400 new jets over the next decade.

The govt had already decided what they were going to do way back in Jan-Feb 2016 for both twin engine and single engine fighter lines. The govt shoved the LCA into IAF's throats, and in exchange canceled the Mk2 for IAF and selected the Rafale and Gripen for MII. So all parties are happy.

Both Rafale and Gripen will start with 90 jets each and will have those expanded to 120 each as production progresses.

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## jha

randomradio said:


> Heavy aircraft:
> Su-30MKI - We will have 267(touch wood) of these by 2019. No more.
> 
> Medium aircraft:
> Rafale - 36+120
> 
> Light aircraft:
> LCA Mk1/A - 120
> Gripen - 120
> 
> That's about it. IAF is not buying the F-16 or the SH. IAF is not buying the LCA Mk2 either.
> 
> We will have 440 old jets, MKI, Mig-29, M2K and Jag, comprising 22 squadrons.
> 
> The remaining 20 squadrons will see 8 squadrons of Rafale, 6 squadrons of LCA and 6 squadrons of Gripen.
> 
> This will be the fleet by 2027, not counting attrition.
> 
> As I had pointed out earlier, we will be getting 400 new jets over the next decade.
> 
> The govt had already decided what they were going to do way back in Jan-Feb 2016 for both twin engine and single engine fighter lines. The govt shoved the LCA into IAF's throats, and in exchange canceled the Mk2 for IAF and selected the Rafale and Gripen for MII. So all parties are happy.
> 
> Both Rafale and Gripen will start with 90 jets each and will have those expanded to 120 each as production progresses.



No 5th Gen ? FGFA/F-35 ?

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## randomradio

jha said:


> No 5th Gen ? FGFA/F-35 ?



FGFA is coming for sure. It will most likely be signed in December. Actually I believe the FGFA and AMCA development contracts will be signed this financial year itself.

F-35 depends on the navy, IAF is not buying it. The problem with the F-35 is the Americans have made a rule saying they will give the most classified briefing to customers only after they have committed to the program, so that creates problems. We can't buy without knowing what we are actually paying for. Plus, we haven't signed CISMOA/COMCASA. Without that, we cannot buy the F-35. So IN will be forced to buy the Rafale-M, which is equally good.

Anyway, even with the most optimistic dates, we will start receiving the FGFA only in 2024, and they will come in very slowly, like 2 a year and then 4 and then 8, finally 16 by 2030. But it's not related to the Rafale, LCA and Gripen MII. By the time FGFA's full rate production starts, the production for the other three would have ended.

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## Hulk

Abingdonboy said:


> God, only now Shiv Aroor/Livefist are reporting this?
> 
> And these bufoons are whom the vast majority of the Indian population rely on for the news.......


Who do I rely on then?


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## jha

randomradio said:


> FGFA is coming for sure. It will most likely be signed in December. Actually I believe the FGFA and AMCA development contracts will be signed this financial year itself.
> 
> F-35 depends on the navy, IAF is not buying it. The problem with the F-35 is the Americans have made a rule saying they will give the most classified briefing to customers only after they have committed to the program, so that creates problems. We can't buy without knowing what we are actually paying for. Plus, we haven't signed CISMOA/COMCASA. Without that, we cannot buy the F-35. So IN will be forced to buy the Rafale-M, which is equally good.
> 
> Anyway, even with the most optimistic dates, we will start receiving the FGFA only in 2024, and they will come in very slowly, like 2 a year and then 4 and then 8, finally 16 by 2030. But it's not related to the Rafale, LCA and Gripen MII. By the time FGFA's full rate production starts, the production for the other three would have ended.



Suppose we do sign COMCASA, don't you think some off the shelf F-35s will serve us good. Will not one LM built F-35 in 2025 be yards if not miles, ahead of anything Russia can sell us or, China can field against us ?

Edit: just to confirm that I am not pimping for F-35. Just being curious. If our strategic interests are better protected with off the shelf purchase of 3-4 squads of F-35 for IAF, should we at least not look at this option ?

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## randomradio

jha said:


> Suppose we do sign COMCASA, don't you think some off the shelf F-35s will serve us good. Will not one LM built F-35 in 2025 be yards if not miles, ahead of anything Russia can sell us or, China can field against us ?



There is a greater chance that we will end up buying 3 squadrons of the Russian version of PAK FA if we have extra money or if there is immediate necessity, the decision is still pending. The PAK FA will in fact be miles ahead of the F-35. The current version of PAK FA, which will hit production next year, is carrying tech that the 2023 FOC version of F-35 will not.

The F-35 has analog AESA, the PAK FA will begin production with Digital AESA, the difference in this technology is vast. Plus the PAK FA will be equipped with DIRCM and directed energy weapons well before the F-35 will.

The PAK FA will carry more radars and passive sensors than the F-35. For example, the PAK FA is equipped with more types of radars, and along with that the PAK FA will also have EM, IR, UV and TV sensors while the F-35 will only have one type of radar and only EM and IR sensors.

The PAK FA is equally stealthy, is super maneuverable, can supercruise, has a larger internal payload and greater range. Plus it will also come with active cancellation technology which will give it a far lower RCS than the F-35 when necessary.



jha said:


> Edit: just to confirm that I am not pimping for F-35. Just being curious. If our strategic interests are better protected with off the shelf purchase of 3-4 squads of F-35 for IAF, should we at least not look at this option ?



As a single engine aircraft with low thrust to weight, the F-35 cannot fly efficiently over the Himalayas. It's been designed for low and medium altitudes. Against China, we need very fast and high flying aircraft. So the F-35 has never been a good option for the IAF.

But it's a different case when it comes to the IN. The Pentagon has been pushing the F-35 for the IN's new carrier as part of their carrier cooperation. They are talking about the benefits of the E-2D + F-35 and their ability to electronically talk to US assets in the region, including military satellites. Basically, they are pushing for joint patrols.

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## jha

@PARIKRAMA ... Your thoughts please. Even though my query is very amateurish for you.

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## PARIKRAMA

jha said:


> @PARIKRAMA ... Your thoughts please. Even though my query is very amateurish for you.


May i suggest this thread
https://defence.pk/threads/indian-airforce-mmrca-lwf-alternate-discussion.448646/

There you should raise this query bcz its one of the options quoted by Milspec in opening post.
Here in this thread, lets stick to Rafale.

I had requested mods for a dedicated thread for Make In India fighter news as sticky thread. if that happens it will be good for sure so that we can discuss there more..

BTW nothing is amateurish. Feel free to ask anything.. We only learn more when we discuss and share what we know

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## Thorough Pro

This is where it all started Nov 23, 2005 about 11 years ago and its still going

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault-rafale-tender-news-discussions.4347/


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## CNL-PN-AA

Rafale all set to fly: High level delegation to straighten last minutes differences

By Pradip R. Sagar
Published: 11th September 2016 01:37 AM
Last Updated: 11th September 2016 01:44 AM


NEW DELHI: A high level delegation comprised of all three French defence firms, involved in the 36 Rafale fighter jet deal with Indian Air Force, have been camping in Capital to straighten the last minutes differences, if any, according to a top source in the government. After the Defence ministry approving the recommendations of the committee negotiating the deal for the last 16 months the file has now reached the Prime Minister’s Office for final vetting.

According to sources, privy to the development, representatives of Dassault aviation, MBDA and Thales are in talks with the government officials to give a much needed push for the deal. According to the contract, Dassault aviations, manufacturers the aircraft, MBDA provides weapons system package and Thales is giving avionics to the fighter jet.

“Representatives all three involved defence firms are in talks to take swift decision on any last minute doubt. Certainly, the deal is making a headway and should be done in a week’s time,”said a defence source.

It is believed that the PMO is making a strong push to conclude the deal, as it is already delayed. And the final report submitted by a team of negotiating the Rafale deal was approved by the highest acquisition body headed by the Defence minister Manohar Parrikar in its last meeting in August.

During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract.

Soon after the announcement, the defence ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.

The deal is expected to be worth around 7.89 billion Euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly away conditions.

The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new age beyond visual range missile Meteor and Israeli helmet mounted display.

The price of the deal was brought down from nearly 10 billion Euros, as sought initially, due to various reasons, including tough negotiation by India, the discount offered by the French government and reworking of some of the criteria. It is not clear if the price has been brought down further but India was seeking more.

The new deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets.

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## AugenBlick

Hulk said:


> Who do I rely on then?


@PARIKRAMA is the id of RM Manohar Parrikar himself


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## Zarvan

*The Competitive Edge*
It wasn't until a couple of years back that only the US fighters could boast of the new generation Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) airborne radars. Among these aircraft with this great asset are the Lockheed Martin F-16E/F Block 60 Fighting Falcon (using the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80 AESA radar), the updated USAF model Boeing F-15C/F-15SG (fitted with the Raytheon AN/APG-63(V)2 and AN/APG-63(V)3 respectively), the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and the EA-18G Growler (equipped with the Raytheon APG-79 or APG-82(V)1). The Americans now have a ‘*rival*’ in the shape of the French Air Force’s Rafale fighter, fitted with the Thales RBE2/AA AESA lightweight radar. The Rafale was the first European fighter to be fitted with an AESA radar.





A committed research and development program coupled with a sustained application by the French industry have been behind the Rafale emerging as the first European combat aircraft with a functional electronically phased array radar and a completely indigenous hi-tech sensor. Other European efforts relying on non-European technology are still at various stages of development and testing. Ericsson’s PS-05/A MK-5 (NORA) for the JAS 39 Gripen and Euroradar’s Captor-E CAESAR (Captor Active Electronically Scanning Array Radar) for the Eurofighter are two primary examples. 

The Rafale is already a splendid multirole fighter aircraft, it is even better with this new radar. The new RBE2 AESA brings to the Rafale an extended range of capabilities like low-observable target detection, full use of new weapon systems such as the new MBDA Meteor. BVR hypersonic air-to-air missiles, a much higher reliability with relatively low maintenance costs and greater waveform agility for SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) imaging and improved resistance to jamming.

All export versions of the Rafale, including the 36 earmarked for the Indian Air Force’s, will incorporate the Thales AESA advanced radar technology as standard. Rafales now use the NATO Link 16 tactical data exchange network.

*A Smarter Radar*
An AESA radar, also known as ‘Active Phased Array’ radar, is that type of radar whose transmitter and receiver functions are composed of numerous independent solid-state transmitters and receiver modules (TRMs). Other components include an advanced receiver/exciter, ruggedized Commercial Off-The-Shelf processors, and power supplies. AESA radars simply aim their ‘beam’ by emitting separate radio waves from each module at certain angles which form a virtual sheaf in front of the antenna. Such radar is an improvement on the older passive electronically scanned (PESA) radar which emitted across a much larger band of frequencies, making it difficult to detect over background noise and clutter. The Rafale with its AESA radar will broadcast powerful radar signals to detect enemy aircraft or surface targets, while itself remaining unobserved. The complete ‘electronic cloak’ provided by the Rafale’s Thales Spectra ECM suite, which is unique, is another advantage that this aircraft boasts of. It seems very likely that the French has outwitted the Americans in this exclusive technological development.

In conclusion, one has to reemphasise that the choice of the Rafale by the IAF was based on sound evaluation and intent. The Indian Air Force has the greatest and most crucial stake in the process of defending the nation's airspace and security and to this effect, the Rafale will prove to be the most effective weapon in its arsenal._ (With inputs from Jean-Michel Guhl in Paris)_
*Admin - IDN

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/09/idn-take-rafale-cut-above-rest.html*

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## randomradio

I don't know how many of you noticed but we haven't had any pro-Gripen articles since July.

We signed the MoU with Saab in Feb. And then signed the GTG deal with Sweden in June. Until Feb to June, there were pro-Gripen articles and quotes from Saab officials constantly, but after the signature in June end, all articles died. This is part of the GoI rules which prohibit companies from talking to the media when they are under contract with GoI. It was the same with Rafale, only contract related news was released.

The Gripen GTG deal itself was very low profile. It was signed in Singapore between defence secretaries.


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## BON PLAN

*Last discussions on track*.

NEW DELHI: A high level delegation comprised of all three French defence firms, involved in the 36 Rafale fighter jet deal with Indian Air Force, have been camping in Capital to straighten the last minutes differences, if any, according to a top source in the government.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...tes-differences/2016/09/11/article3618189.ece

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## [Bregs]

Arey bhai DM and PM, Pls this time sign this deal and now concentrate on Make in India deal for this Rafale fighter alone

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## PARIKRAMA

*Pls use this thread for Rafale only.*

All other news in this thread here
https://defence.pk/threads/make-in-...ents-updates-f16-f18-gripen-any-other.448850/

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> MOU between Sweden and India or between Saab and India has not happened. Nor any Signature between Defence secretaries has happened.
> Post the last concrete offer from Sweden, Saab is suppose to come back with the list of technologies which it can transfer comprehensively and needed time to talk with its partners to get a go ahead in written form to submit their proposal.
> Saab Marketing team ppl are known to me and in their own words they are reworking the strategy
> They have faced severe backlash bcz Gripen is seen as a fighter which will curtail LCA program so they are needing a re positioning and their media blitz actually backfired as they became too much visible.
> ACM Raha visit and now DM MP visit is to assure them of the confidence that they will be able to get the partners consent for the tech transfer aspect.
> There is an expectation that Saab has secured the requisite details and will hand over the confirmation to DM MP when he meets them and also some partners are invited in that meeting to have face to face interaction on the same.
> The final decision on single engine jet is pretty far ahead.



This is different from my info, but I really hope you are right because I would prefer the LSA over the Gripen.

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## proud_indian

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/774990547786330113
He is the one who broke cancellation of MMRCA and GTG deal of 36 fighters.

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## PARIKRAMA

proud_indian said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/774990547786330113
> He is the one who broke cancellation of MMRCA and GTG deal of 36 fighters.


i said soon.






https://defence.pk/threads/indian-airforce-mmrca-lwf-alternate-discussion.448646/page-2#post-8674077

i am still with the same timeline


PARIKRAMA said:


> Approval will happen soon and signing within next 40 days or even less.



This week as its MOnday now is very important. If the agenda item gets approved, the rest can be taken care. As i said the release of money will happen in Q3 end to Q4 early timeline.

@CNL-PN-AA : MII part progress. I am told IGA has the mandate of the same. So whats you hearing



PARIKRAMA said:


> So first assembly line is Rafale and second assembly line most probably will be a LWF a direct fight between 3 contenders - LM F16, Saab Gripen E, and indigenous project LSA.


https://defence.pk/threads/make-in-...f16-f18-gripen-any-other.448850/#post-8677012

That also contain Nitin Gokhale tweets where he mentions second assembly line in reply to queries

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## CNL-PN-AA

Cabinet committee set to okay deal for 36 Rafale fighter aircraft

Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times, New Delhi 
Updated: Sep 12, 2016 00:38 IST

Since Modi ordered 36 ready-to-fly fighters from France in April 2015, both the defence ministry and Dassault Aviation officials have been involved in hectic negotiations. (AP File Photo )

Sixteen months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter aircraft, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) is set to approve on Monday the closure of negotiations between the defence ministry and French manufacturer Dassault Aviation. The settled price for the twin-engined multi-role fighter is about 7.8 billion Euros with deliveries from 2019 and annual inflation capped at 3.5%.

Top sources told Hindustan Times that the defence ministry has sent the finalised deal to the CCS after making requisite changes to its offset section. The deal involves the manufacturer outsourcing 50% of the total amount of the deal from India.

“The cost of 36 fighters will be around Rs 7000-8,000 crore lower than that what was being offered to the previous UPA regime in the now cancelled contract for multi-role medium range combat aircraft (MMRCA). Rafale had been shortlisted as the lowest bidder in the MMRCA tender,” said a senior official.

Read | Ready to conclude Rafale deal, ball in India’s court: Dassault Aviation

Since Modi ordered 36 ready-to-fly fighters from France in April 2015, both the defence ministry and Dassault Aviation officials have been involved in hectic negotiations with defence minister Manohar Parrikar insistent that the cost should be 10-20% less than what was being offered to UPA regime but without compromising on the capabilities of the aircraft.

Equipped with a state-of-the-art AESA radar that allows for multiple targeting beyond visual range, the nuclear capable jet will the frontline jet for Indian Air Force (IAF) with Russian Su-30 MKI forming the backbone. Rafale fighters can be armed with the latest air-to-air, air-to-ground, as well as nuclear armament.

The 36 aircraft with a full armament complement were offered at a maximum price of 11.6 billion euros with annual inflation pegged at 5%. This has been brought down to 7.8 billion euros with maximum inflation pegged at 3.5.

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## [Bregs]

A new dawn for IAF and for closer relationship between France and India for more such deals in future but without taking so much time

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## newindiandefence

11.6 billion EUROS ? For 36 ..
Thank god APA is not There.

Egypt got 24 rafale with a navy ship at $5.9 including weapons.

7.8 billion EUROS reasonable.

UPA*

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## PakEye

*Bargaining *
where is TOT, Make in India, Assembling in India & Jobs.


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## indo

pakeye said:


> *Bargaining *
> where is TOT, Make in India, Assembling in India & Jobs.


The deal involves the manufacturer outsourcing 50% of the total amount of the deal from India.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ssions-thread-2.351407/page-315#ixzz4Jyqdf8y9

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## randomradio

pakeye said:


> *Bargaining *
> where is TOT, Make in India, Assembling in India & Jobs.



That's the next step. They are creating the procedures first.

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## CNL-PN-AA

Of course, Dassault and France would have never accepted 50% offstes in order to sell only 36 Rafales. So MII for Rafales is absolutely sure. 90+ for IAF and 45+ for IN. Like I said in january. It will be inked in the contract for 36, either by a public or secret clause.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

> Sixteen months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter aircraft, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) is set to approve *on Monday* the closure of negotiations between the defence ministry and French manufacturer Dassault Aviation.



http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...er-aircraft/story-yrdz5RCUfp2vtenITwUzSO.html

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## [Bregs]

Three cheers for this marathon, grilling deal which came after many obstacles and near collapse many time since past 4 and half years. IAF is all set to get one of the best fighter aircraft after suffering depletion of sq strength. What a pleasing turn of event in the end for dassault that at one time they were not part of the tender of MMRCA, they were allowed to come late into this tender replacing there Mirage 2005 aircraft



*Special thanks* to @PARIKRAMA for keeping everyone here updated about this deal, to @ *Abingdonboy *for having given latest about this aircraft's details and also to @*Picdelamirand-oil *for making a very details thread on the rafale aircraft and its hidden capabilities. Thanks to @Taygibay for updating regularly on France side view of this deal

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## kaykay

Hold your horses guys..... today is Monday and I'll wait before cheering.

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## [Bregs]

kaykay said:


> Hold your horses guys..... today is Monday and I'll wait before cheering.




lol true this deal has alread turned upside down many times

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## kaykay

[Bregs] said:


> lol true this deal has alread turned upside down many times


haha have had enough KLPDs already...thats why I'll wait.

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## [Bregs]

kaykay said:


> haha have had enough KLPDs already...thats why I'll wait.



But this time it seems to be on its way to cross final hurdle and reach conclusions, agar ab delay hya fir koi ek bandook bhi nahi bechega india ko

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## VivasvatManu

CNL-PN-AA said:


> Of course, Dassault and France would have never accepted 50% offstes in order to sell only 36 Rafales. So MII for Rafales is absolutely sure. 90+ for IAF and 45+ for IN. Like I said in january. It will be inked in the contract for 36, either by a public or secret clause.



Nope. When the contract signed you will find that the contract is ONLY for 36 Rafale and with a firm commitment by Dassault for investing 50% of the money back in India to further the Aerospace Industry in India. 

There is ZERO commitment for purchasing any more Rafale, but there will be a 100% enforced commitment by Dassault to develop Indian vendors and work with DRDO to transfer tech.

However if you want to "spin" something about a 'Secret' deal, do so by all means. Conspiracy theories are always fun.


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## R!CK

VivasvatManu said:


> Nope. When the contract signed you will find that the contract is ONLY for 36 Rafale and with a firm commitment by Dassault for investing 50% of the money back in India to further the Aerospace Industry in India.
> 
> There is ZERO commitment for purchasing any more Rafale, but there will be a 100% enforced commitment by Dassault to develop Indian vendors and work with DRDO to transfer tech.
> 
> However if you want to "spin" something about a 'Secret' deal, do so by all means. Conspiracy theories are always fun.



Hes not spinning anything, be patient and find out for yourself. @CNL-PN-AA is a resourceful man. We should rather thank him for the bits and pieces he leaves for us to figure out the whole plan.

Good Day!

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## 4GTejasBVR

Monday funday


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## VivasvatManu

R!CK said:


> Hes not spinning anything, be patient and find out for yourself. @CNL-PN-AA is a resourceful man. We should rather thank him for the bits and pieces he leaves for us to figure out the whole plan.
> 
> Good Day!



lol. You are free to thank him for the bits and feel free to feed of the scraps. Don't push your hero worship onto me. 

I suggest you take your own advice and wait for the official news and find out for yourself. 

.


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## 4GTejasBVR

VivasvatManu said:


> Nope. When the contract signed you will find that the contract is ONLY for 36 Rafale and with a firm commitment by Dassault for investing 50% of the money back in India to further the Aerospace Industry in India.
> 
> There is ZERO commitment for purchasing any more Rafale, but there will be a 100% enforced commitment by Dassault to develop Indian vendors and work with DRDO to transfer tech.
> 
> However if you want to "spin" something about a 'Secret' deal, do so by all means. Conspiracy theories are always fun.



Wrong deal is also for additional 18 as follow on. But more will can be inked to produce in India as 50% reinvestment by French will help in cutting out additional cost overrun for Make In India Rafale as of today. 36 +18 is for sure. If the deal is for 8 billion euros in 2016 keep adding 3.5% more till 2020 or when ever we might sign. That the rate deal could be signed for additional 18 follow on. But for sure more money need to be invested either by France or India for assembly line. 
Even here we could expect more than 30% reinvestment by Rafale from that part of deal aiding to the additional cost. 


Can you understand this deal now? Beautifully crafted by Modi government. No more hustling or price negotiations like in the past.

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## VivasvatManu

4GTejasBVR said:


> Wrong deal is also for additional 18 as follow on. But more will can be inked to produce in India as 50% reinvestment by French will help in cutting out additional cost overrun for Make In India Rafale as of today. 36 +18 is for sure. If the deal is for 8 billion euros in 2016 keep adding 3.5% more till 2020 or when ever we might sign. That the rate deal could be signed for additional 18 follow on. But for sure more money need to be invested either by France or India for assembly line.
> Even here we could expect more than 30% reinvestment by Rafale from that part of deal aiding to the additional cost.
> 
> 
> Can you understand this deal now? Beautifully crafted by Modi government. No more hustling or price negotiations like in the past.



True... the deal will possibly involve a clause to sell 18 more. 

The entire 50% reinvestment will not be in vendor development so even if more Rafales are made, the impact on Indian Industry will be not much. The bulk of the investment will be for new technology development and will effect future aircrafts of a different gen and class. 

An assembly line is the easiest pat of the deal and really requires minimum ToT. There are PLENTY of companies in India who can set up an assembly line without ANY french help. 

The Real investment will be for making Avionics and Mech. components and that is unlikely to happen since there has not been news of any collaboration with Indian companies. 

This collaboration cannot happen once the deal is signed because the timeline for delivery of these aircrafts will make it impossible to sources any significant components from India. (ToT, prototype, testing, CEMILAC certification etc. etc. its a minimum 2-3 year process )

Full marks to the Modi govt. for crafting a great deal, only its for developing the tech. base in India.


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## PARIKRAMA

Now since CCS date is out by HT, expect good news after 1030am. Yes CCS time is 1030am. If the agenda point the approved than announcement should happen post that and a media release by PIB should also happen post that.

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## CNL-PN-AA

VivasvatManu said:


> Nope. When the contract signed you will find that the contract is ONLY for 36 Rafale and with a firm commitment by Dassault for investing 50% of the money back in India to further the Aerospace Industry in India.
> 
> There is ZERO commitment for purchasing any more Rafale, but there will be a 100% enforced commitment by Dassault to develop Indian vendors and work with DRDO to transfer tech.
> 
> However if you want to "spin" something about a 'Secret' deal, do so by all means. Conspiracy theories are always fun.



36 Rafales only and 50 % offsets ? France and Dassault would have never accepted that ! Besides what I know and what I said, it is just obvious that offsets are depending on Rafales made in India. Even a kid would understand that ... And secret clauses are very common in contracts, especially G2G military contracts. During the last year, ALL what I said came true so I am sure that what I say today will soon come true too.

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## VivasvatManu

CNL-PN-AA said:


> 36 Rafales only and 50 % offsets ? France and Dassault would have never accepted that ! Besides what I know and what I said, it is just obvious that offsets are depending on Rafales made in India. Even a kid would understand that ... And secret clauses are very common in contracts, especially G2G military contracts. During the last year, ALL what I said came true so I am sure that what I say today will soon come true too.



...and yet the contact will show that Dassault HAS accepted that. 

If I was to predict the future then I would say that IF India was to procure more Rafale it would depend on how much traction Dassault makes in developing Vendors in India and how they score on the Offset implementation scale at the end of 3 years. 

This act of good faith and offset implementation by Dassault is going to be the deciding factor for any more contracts. 

Since its a G2G deal, there is going to be some secret clauses, only it will not be to build more Rafales. 

India will keep its options open and will not be bound by any commitment. I am pretty sure that what I am saying will come true too. So let us just watch the new space, shall we ?

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## proud indian94

Waiting for good news.


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## newindiandefence

I think we will use some technology of rafale in super sukhoi upgrade . And committed 50% offstage, France partnered companies will get orders in future jets of India tejas Mark 1a, Mark2 navyw, Amca , super sukhoi.


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## 4GTejasBVR

3-6 o clock we can expect good news?


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## BON PLAN

CNL-PN-AA said:


> Cabinet committee set to okay deal for 36 Rafale fighter aircraft
> 
> Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times, New Delhi
> Updated: Sep 12, 2016 00:38 IST
> 
> Since Modi ordered 36 ready-to-fly fighters from France in April 2015, both the defence ministry and Dassault Aviation officials have been involved in hectic negotiations. (AP File Photo )
> 
> Sixteen months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter aircraft, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) is set to approve on Monday the closure of negotiations between the defence ministry and French manufacturer Dassault Aviation. The settled price for the twin-engined multi-role fighter is about 7.8 billion Euros with deliveries from 2019 and annual inflation capped at 3.5%.
> 
> Top sources told Hindustan Times that the defence ministry has sent the finalised deal to the CCS after making requisite changes to its offset section. The deal involves the manufacturer outsourcing 50% of the total amount of the deal from India.
> 
> “The cost of 36 fighters will be around Rs 7000-8,000 crore lower than that what was being offered to the previous UPA regime in the now cancelled contract for multi-role medium range combat aircraft (MMRCA). Rafale had been shortlisted as the lowest bidder in the MMRCA tender,” said a senior official.
> 
> Read | Ready to conclude Rafale deal, ball in India’s court: Dassault Aviation
> 
> Since Modi ordered 36 ready-to-fly fighters from France in April 2015, both the defence ministry and Dassault Aviation officials have been involved in hectic negotiations with defence minister Manohar Parrikar insistent that the cost should be 10-20% less than what was being offered to UPA regime but without compromising on the capabilities of the aircraft.
> 
> Equipped with a state-of-the-art AESA radar that allows for multiple targeting beyond visual range, the nuclear capable jet will the frontline jet for Indian Air Force (IAF) with Russian Su-30 MKI forming the backbone. Rafale fighters can be armed with the latest air-to-air, air-to-ground, as well as nuclear armament.
> 
> The 36 aircraft with a full armament complement were offered at a maximum price of 11.6 billion euros with annual inflation pegged at 5%. This has been brought down to 7.8 billion euros with maximum inflation pegged at 3.5.


What are the other administrativ steps before inking the deal ?

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## [Bregs]

Kab khatam hogi ye CCS ki meeting ?, ab toh inteha ho gai intezaar ki


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## kaykay

[Bregs] said:


> Kab khatam hogi ye CCS ki meeting ?, ab toh inteha ho gai intezaar ki


I have a bad feeling...prepared for one more KLPD.

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## [Bregs]

kaykay said:


> I have a bad feeling...prepared for one more KLPD.



oh bhai sukh sukh bol, ab bhi koi kami reh gai hai es deal main bad feelings ki

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## Abingdonboy

CNL-PN-AA said:


> Of course, Dassault and France would have never accepted 50% offstes in order to sell only 36 Rafales. So MII for Rafales is absolutely sure. 90+ for IAF and 45+ for IN. Like I said in january. It will be inked in the contract for 36, either by a public or secret clause.


Could You Possibly explain why the MII element is being kept in the dark to such a degree? If one was to believe the mainstream media only Lockhead Martin, Boeing and SAAB are making such offers to India when in reality the GoI has been in talks solely with Dassualt for over a year now to make the Rafale in India. 

Is it simply a political game? Or are the GoI and French Govt being shrewd by trying to keep the far bigger deal under wraps (to the greatest extent possible) to insulate it from the propaganda and outright smear campaign that has plagued the Rafale contract from 2011?

@PARIKRAMA



VivasvatManu said:


> Nope. When the contract signed you will find that the contract is ONLY for 36 Rafale and with a firm commitment by Dassault for investing 50% of the money back in India to further the Aerospace Industry in India.
> 
> There is ZERO commitment for purchasing any more Rafale, but there will be a 100% enforced commitment by Dassault to develop Indian vendors and work with DRDO to transfer tech.
> 
> However if you want to "spin" something about a 'Secret' deal, do so by all means. Conspiracy theories are always fun.


Riiiiight, India has managed to extract 50% offset commitments, serious discounts and ToT from France for just 36 jets (with a 18 unit option clause) ordered off the shelf? 

Despite the fact that we KNOW Dassualt have been talking to the GoI to make many times this number of Rafales in India. 

@PARIKRAMA @Taygibay

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## VivasvatManu

Abingdonboy said:


> Riiiiight, India has managed to extract 50% offset commitments, serious discounts and ToT from France for just 36 jets (with a 18 unit option clause) ordered off the shelf?
> 
> Despite the fact that we KNOW Dassualt have been talking to the GoI to make many times this number of Rafales in India.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Taygibay



There is nothing to "extract". The RFP and proposal was for purchase with 50% offset. 

French position during the Negotiation was that they wanted additional cost for Offset. Second point was that HAL was NOT mature enough to 'absorb' the technology for mentioned cost. Their third point was about risk to Dassault since HAL would not take ownership for something that was not theirs to begin with. 

India conceded to all three of their demands and agreed to pay for the additional offset but eliminated our Risk by reducing the number of aircrafts ordered. 

This is the gist of the negotiations. 

So now if Rafale wants additional orders they need to now take the risk and then convince GoI / MoD/IAF that they can produce the aircraft either cheaper or with greater value (better tech/ upgrade), IN India. 

India is free of additional commitment and can peruse other avenues if the French fail to honour their deal in good faith. If the french do significant teach transfer and develop Vendors in India then India will purchase more Rafale. Either way the Risk to India is reduced. 

Dasault is a victim of its own negotiation strategy. Maybe Dasult believes that upgraded Rafale will still be better than PAKFA and hence agreed to the Risk. But all that is pure speculation.

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## Abingdonboy

VivasvatManu said:


> There is nothing to "extract". The RFP and proposal was for purchase with 50% offset.
> 
> French position during the Negotiation was that they wanted additional cost for Offset. Second point was that HAL was NOT mature enough to 'absorb' the technology for mentioned cost. Their third point was about risk to Dassault since HAL would not take ownership for something that was not theirs to begin with.
> 
> India conceded to all three of their demands and agreed to pay for the additional offset but eliminated our Risk by reducing the number of aircrafts ordered.
> 
> This is the gist of the negotiations.
> 
> So now if Rafale wants additional orders they need to now take the risk and then convince GoI / MoD/IAF that they can produce the aircraft either cheaper or with greater value (better tech/ upgrade), IN India.
> 
> India is free of additional commitment and can peruse other avenues if the French fail to honour their deal in good faith. If the french do significant teach transfer and develop Vendors in India then India will purchase more Rafale. Either way the Risk to India is reduced.
> 
> Dasault is a victim of its own negotiation strategy. Maybe Dasult believes that upgraded Rafale will still be better than PAKFA and hence agreed to the Risk. But all that is pure speculation.


Please. 

If India wasn't happy with the terms offered by Dassualt they would already be talking to Boeing or LM and not a single Rafale would be ordered. It is a buyer's market, the very fact India is going for 36 Rafales is indication that both India and France have come to an agreement for FAR deeper cooperation. The govt isn't going to throw $8bn away as easy as that.

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## VivasvatManu

Abingdonboy said:


> Please.
> 
> If India wasn't happy with the terms offered by Dassualt they would already be talking to Boeing or LM and not a single Rafale would be ordered. It is a buyer's market, the very fact India is going for 36 Rafales is indication that both India and France have come to an agreement for FAR deeper cooperation. The govt isn't going to throw $8bn away as easy as that.



India WAS not happy that is why we NEGOTIATED a Happy solution. 

How difficult is it to understand this simple fact ? So NOW we are happy. (AFTER negotiations)


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## PARIKRAMA



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## Abingdonboy

VivasvatManu said:


> India WAS not happy that is why we NEGOTIATED a Happy solution.
> 
> How difficult is it to understand this simple fact ? So NOW we are happy. (AFTER negotiations)


The entire premise of your argument is flawed and ignores the most basic element of negotiations. When one side is happy and the other not, the solution is not to make the unhappy side happy and the happy aide unhappy. A middle ground has to be found. 

So if your contention is that India went from being unhappy to happy then it would have to have worked WITH France to come to an understanding that suited all and do you really think 36 jets (with 50% of the value having to be invested back into India) would suffice?

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 333702

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## VivasvatManu

Abingdonboy said:


> The entire premise of your argument is flawed and ignores the most basic element of negotiations. When one side is happy and the other not, the solution is not to make the unhappy side happy and the happy aide unhappy. A middle ground has to be found.
> 
> So if your contention is that India went from being unhappy to happy then it would have to have worked WITH France to come to an understanding that suited all and do you really think 36 jets (with 50% of the value having to be invested back into India) would suffice?



When did I say one side is unhappy ? The french got what they bargained for and India got what India bargained for. 

If France signs the contract for 36 Rafales it will put to rest all rumours of French unhappiness. 

THAT IS the middle ground.


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## randomradio

CNL-PN-AA said:


> 36 Rafales only and 50 % offsets ? France and Dassault would have never accepted that ! Besides what I know and what I said, it is just obvious that offsets are depending on Rafales made in India. Even a kid would understand that ... And secret clauses are very common in contracts, especially G2G military contracts. During the last year, ALL what I said came true so I am sure that what I say today will soon come true too.



The MII component will be part of the initial IGA signed in Jan this year, not part of the 36 jet contract.

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## VivasvatManu

randomradio said:


> The MII component will be part of the initial IGA signed in Jan this year, not part of the 36 jet contract.



But it is contingent on the singing of the contract for 36 jets. Otherwise that agreement means less than nothing. Its just an MOU.


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## randomradio

VivasvatManu said:


> But it is contingent on the singing of the contract for 36 jets. Otherwise that agreement means less than nothing. Its just an MOU.



IGA is not a MOU. And this 36 jet contract will be signed. Doval had already said last year that the Rafale deal will be signed. It was always a question of when.

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## VivasvatManu

randomradio said:


> IGA is not a MOU. And this 36 jet contract will be signed. Doval had already said last year that the Rafale deal will be signed. It was always a question of when.



Yes the Rafale deal will be signed since Modi has already declared it more than 1 year back in France. You were talking about the MII and not IGA. IGA will cover a lot more strategic and geo political issues including climate change, solar alliance, intelligence sharing, nuclear know how, etc.


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## PARIKRAMA

*Some Bits Based on Source*


To a query by a senior cabinet minister (from Lutyen Circle fraternity) if any more jet is coming for a line in India or not, the whole folks laughed.
PM NaMo Looked at DM MP and said in hindi roughly , _i hope its explicit what we want in future part. If needed check that again. And who are coming for that?_
DM MP said _Partnership, some talks are there with Reliance ,Tata, Kalyani, more are there (aur bhi hai) etc. Bharat Electronics is there also for majority of things. DRDO is there also for the engine. _(he meant GTRE, a lab under DRDO)
PM NaMo said then , _yes Engine, and what about the other things Doval had talked about?_
DM MP listed then the technologies being transferred and showed the report of the process and milestones
PM NaMo then said in hindi roughly , _Anyone else gave similar things?_
DM MP said _Carter assured few of the things. But nothing in writing or in proper proposal like this. _(pointing to a stack of papers , a report detailing each technology and how transfer is mandated and proposed)
All burst out laughing
PM NaMo asked for opinion what others think.
A senior cabinet minister said we have to set a benchmark with this deal. I hope Law Ministry had seen every point proposed that we get all benefits as we have desired.
PM Namo said in hindi, _check for every point language and interpretation. Law is funny. so lets take extra few days but be 100% (sau pratishak) sure that nothing is left from this _
DM MP said will check again and put it in next meeting...

@Nilgiri @Abingdonboy @Vergennes @MilSpec @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @Ankit Kumar 002 @randomradio @Armani @[Bregs] @GuardianRED @R!CK @CNL-PN-AA

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## VivasvatManu

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Some Bits Based on Source*
> 
> 
> To a query by a senior cabinet minister (from Lutyen Circle fraternity) if any more jet is coming for a line in India or not, the whole folks laughed.
> PM NaMo Looked at DM MP and said in hindi roughly , _i hope its explicit what we want in future part. If needed check that again. And who are coming for that?_
> DM MP said _Partnership, some talks are there with Reliance ,Tata, Kalyani, more are there (aur bhi hai) etc. Bharat Electronics is there also for majority of things. DRDO is there also for the engine. _(he meant GTRE, a lab under DRDO)
> PM NaMo said then , _yes Engine, and what about the other things Doval had talked about?_
> DM MP listed then the technologies being transferred and showed the report of the process and milestones
> PM NaMo then said in hindi roughly , _Anyone else gave similar things?_
> DM MP said _Carter assured few of the things. But nothing in writing or in proper proposal like this. _(pointing to a stack of papers , a report detailing each technology and how transfer is mandated and proposed)
> All burst out laughing
> PM NaMo asked for opinion what others think.
> A senior cabinet minister said we have to set a benchmark with this deal. I hope Law Ministry had seen every point proposed that we get all benefits as we have desired.
> PM Namo said in hindi, _check for every point language and interpretation. Law is funny. so lets take extra few days but be 100% (sau pratishak) sure that nothing is left from this _
> DM MP said will check again and put it in next meeting...
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vergennes @MilSpec @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @Ankit Kumar 002 @randomradio @Armani @[Bregs] @GuardianRED @R!CK @CNL-PN-AA



Are you seriously posting conversations between PM, DM & FM in a pakistani forum ?

This is better than Radia tapes.


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## GuardianRED

VivasvatManu said:


> Are you seriously posting conversations between PM, DM & FM in a pakistani forum ?
> 
> This is better than Radia tapes.


This conversation isn't adding anything New, other than what has ALREADY been discussed in this thread and forum!

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## VivasvatManu

GuardianRED said:


> This conversation isn't adding anything New, other than what has ALREADY been discussed in this thread and forum!



lol..... you think this conversation is real ?


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## PARIKRAMA

VivasvatManu said:


> Are you seriously posting conversations between PM, DM & FM in a pakistani forum ?
> 
> This is better than Radia tapes.




I did not post the list of 16 technologies. So dont worry on that. I only posted things which are so general that its bascially a lowest level classification in terms of confidentiality and potentially not harming us in any manner. 

From 1210 i have waited to see an open source say its postponed bcz of the same fact that i will be out too much in limelight if i post that here,

The discussion are even more livid. and it touched many other points which are obviously omitted for the same very reason..

The gist was posted bcz there is a campaign out in media to showcase the close relationship dynamics and a possible new alignment. And truth is far from that. Nothing escapes PM and DM eyes not even the fact that a report of Su35 talks also surfaced in the intel brief and about the proposed joint exercise between our Neighbor and Russia. But then such things i cant post here obviously as i said classification issues.

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## kaykay

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/775287679923675136

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## ranjeet

*Cabinet May Approve Multi-Billion Rafale Deal Today*
http://english.kolkata24x7.com/national-news/cabinet-may-approve-multi-billion-rafale-deal-today

what is he talking about? @PARIKRAMA 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/775293202970480640


PARIKRAMA said:


> *Some Bits Based on Source*
> 
> 
> To a query by a senior cabinet minister (from Lutyen Circle fraternity) if any more jet is coming for a line in India or not, the whole folks laughed.





Jet lee?

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## Jamy

Will there be any penalty clause, to handle incidents like Scorpene leak?

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## PARIKRAMA

ranjeet said:


> *Cabinet May Approve Multi-Billion Rafale Deal Today*
> http://english.kolkata24x7.com/national-news/cabinet-may-approve-multi-billion-rafale-deal-today
> 
> what is he talking about? @PARIKRAMA
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/775293202970480640
> 
> Jet lee?


Cost differential

Deal started in excess of Euro 11 Bn now bought down and escalation clause reduced to 3.5% yoy
MMRCA was 85Mn $ fly away now its fully weapons loaded.
Jet lee  - you caught him- Some LM lady did come to meet him and impress him for the jet deal.

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## ranjeet

PARIKRAMA said:


> Cost differential
> 
> Deal started in excess of Euro 11 Bn now bought down and escalation clause reduced to 3.5% yoy
> MMRCA was 85Mn $ fly away now its fully weapons loaded.
> Jet lee  - you caught him- Some LM lady did come to meet him and impress him for the jet deal.


Thanks for the clarification bro.

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## Foxbat Alok

*Rafale contract on verge of finalisation: Government sources*
NEW DELHI: The contract for 36 Rafales is in the last stages of finalisation and the multi-billion euro deal with France could be announced soon. 

"Finer points of the contract are being worked out. The deal is almost in final stages," government sources said. 

Last month, a report submitted by a team negotiating the much-anticipated Rafale deal with France was cleared by the defence ministry. The file was then sent to the Prime Minister's office for review and clearance. 
*ources said the PMO had sought from Defence Ministry some clarifications on the life cycle costs and unit price of the aircraft which was replied to

French sources have said they are expecting a positive development this month. 

The deal is expected to be worth around 7.89 billion euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly away conditions. The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile, Meteor, and Israeli helmet mounted display*
Link::http://m.economictimes.com/news/def...n-government-sources/articleshow/54292945.cms

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## [Bregs]

lo kar lo baat ab fir next metting tak taal diya gya es cursed deal ko

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## PARIKRAMA

Foxbat Alok said:


> *Rafale contract on verge of finalisation: Government sources*
> NEW DELHI: The contract for 36 Rafales is in the last stages of finalisation and the multi-billion euro deal with France could be announced soon.
> 
> "Finer points of the contract are being worked out. The deal is almost in final stages," government sources said.
> 
> Last month, a report submitted by a team negotiating the much-anticipated Rafale deal with France was cleared by the defence ministry. The file was then sent to the Prime Minister's office for review and clearance.
> *Sources said the PMO had sought from Defence Ministry some clarifications on the life cycle costs and unit price of the aircraft which was replied to
> 
> French sources have said they are expecting a positive development this month.
> 
> The deal is expected to be worth around 7.89 billion euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly away conditions. The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile, Meteor, and Israeli helmet mounted display*
> Link::http://m.economictimes.com/news/def...n-government-sources/articleshow/54292945.cms


That PMO point was about 10 days back. The question was due to comparison of Rafale operating cost and support package versus our main fleet of MKI and prior Dassault product Mirage. 
The unit price was due to the revised escalation cost method bcz of which the MMRCA price became loaded price.
Both these points were replied to PMO babus scrutinizing the file papers. Based on clarity only finally it landed in agenda point of the meeting,

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## kaykay

Topi drama continues......

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## Foxbat Alok

PARIKRAMA said:


> That PMO point was about 10 days back. The question was due to comparison of Rafale operating cost and support package versus our main fleet of MKI and prior Dassault product Mirage.
> The unit price was due to the revised escalation cost method bcz of which the MMRCA price became loaded price.
> Both these points were replied to PMO babus scrutinizing the file papers. Based on clarity only finally it landed in agenda point of the meeting,


 Really ???
Aur media ko aaj pata chala

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## [Bregs]

kaykay said:


> Topi drama continues......



i fail to understand bro when a file is put for final approval before CCS then the law ministry opinion and advise for changes is attached. then why again its being referred back for law ministry approval ???


PARIKRAMA said:


> *Some Bits Based on Source*
> 
> i fail to understand bro when a file is put for final approval before CCS then the law ministry opinion and advise for changes is attached. then why again its being referred back for law ministry approval ???
> 
> To a query by a senior cabinet minister (from Lutyen Circle fraternity) if any more jet is coming for a line in India or not, the whole folks laughed.
> PM NaMo Looked at DM MP and said in hindi roughly , _i hope its explicit what we want in future part. If needed check that again. And who are coming for that?_
> DM MP said _Partnership, some talks are there with Reliance ,Tata, Kalyani, more are there (aur bhi hai) etc. Bharat Electronics is there also for majority of things. DRDO is there also for the engine. _(he meant GTRE, a lab under DRDO)
> PM NaMo said then , _yes Engine, and what about the other things Doval had talked about?_
> DM MP listed then the technologies being transferred and showed the report of the process and milestones
> PM NaMo then said in hindi roughly , _Anyone else gave similar things?_
> DM MP said _Carter assured few of the things. But nothing in writing or in proper proposal like this. _(pointing to a stack of papers , a report detailing each technology and how transfer is mandated and proposed)
> All burst out laughing
> PM NaMo asked for opinion what others think.
> A senior cabinet minister said we have to set a benchmark with this deal. I hope Law Ministry had seen every point proposed that we get all benefits as we have desired.
> PM Namo said in hindi, _check for every point language and interpretation. Law is funny. so lets take extra few days but be 100% (sau pratishak) sure that nothing is left from this _
> DM MP said will check again and put it in next meeting...
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vergennes @MilSpec @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @Ankit Kumar 002 @randomradio @Armani @[Bregs] @GuardianRED @R!CK @CNL-PN-AA

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## Spectre

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Some Bits Based on Source*
> 
> 
> To a query by a senior cabinet minister (from Lutyen Circle fraternity) if any more jet is coming for a line in India or not, the whole folks laughed.
> PM NaMo Looked at DM MP and said in hindi roughly , _i hope its explicit what we want in future part. If needed check that again. And who are coming for that?_
> DM MP said _Partnership, some talks are there with Reliance ,Tata, Kalyani, more are there (aur bhi hai) etc. Bharat Electronics is there also for majority of things. DRDO is there also for the engine. _(he meant GTRE, a lab under DRDO)
> PM NaMo said then , _yes Engine, and what about the other things Doval had talked about?_
> DM MP listed then the technologies being transferred and showed the report of the process and milestones
> PM NaMo then said in hindi roughly , _Anyone else gave similar things?_
> DM MP said _Carter assured few of the things. But nothing in writing or in proper proposal like this. _(pointing to a stack of papers , a report detailing each technology and how transfer is mandated and proposed)
> All burst out laughing
> PM NaMo asked for opinion what others think.
> A senior cabinet minister said we have to set a benchmark with this deal. I hope Law Ministry had seen every point proposed that we get all benefits as we have desired.
> PM Namo said in hindi, _check for every point language and interpretation. Law is funny. so lets take extra few days but be 100% (sau pratishak) sure that nothing is left from this _
> DM MP said will check again and put it in next meeting...
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vergennes @MilSpec @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @Ankit Kumar 002 @randomradio @Armani @[Bregs] @GuardianRED @R!CK @CNL-PN-AA



I don't buy the penultimate point where PM asks for recheck.

This is how not things work or atleast they didn't used to. Cabinet briefs are put across after thorough vetting and it is assumed by all that the data presented is Kosher. Put simply if there were any points regarding further vetting or classification from associated ministries or vendors then the matter wouldn't have come in the agenda.

Discussions as you have said also don't happen in cabinet meeting, they happen informally as cabinet meetings are structured and minuted. Records are achieved.

Obviously the above doesn't apply to emergency meets but then the matter is pending for years and is hardly an emergency.

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## Taygibay

Abingdonboy said:


> Is it simply a political game? Or are the GoI and French Govt being shrewd by trying to keep the far bigger deal under wraps (to the greatest extent possible) to insulate it from the propaganda and outright smear campaign that has plagued the Rafale contract from 2011?



Correct answer would be both, old boy!
Politics as in internal to Bharat also being part of "insulating it from propaganda".

I hope that I will shock few people by noting that Indians love discussing deals.
In fact, some both in GoI and the general public like discussing problems more
than achieving solutions or so it seems. To the point where I sometimes wonde-
red if they made a cut on the cash generated by those convos. Like an IT start-up value?

Knowing how its people react is IMHoO the motivation for NaMO/MP to do so.
By keeping the two parts of an acquisition separate in the media as CNL-PN-AA
mentioned ( "secret deal stuff" ), the present Indian leadership defends its ways.
Those like a new member who have an Indian centric vision so exaggerated that
it borders on schizophrenia won't be able to attack both parts of the equation as
they would in a common package.
If both parts of that deal were to fail or succeed, nothing is gained but if one garners
more opposition [ say the high price of only 36 planes ] the other won't follow suite
or at least not de facto.

This may seem like a lot of trouble to influence perceptions but consider this :

- Quite a few Indians believe what they once thought validates what they think in a
vicious circle, as found again yesterday while reading a sadly renowned national forum.
To the point where a litany of woes and bad intent was credited to the other side and
since they trust themselves so much, ended with an incessant list of insults to France.
No amount of reality can silence these but they still talk and they still vote.

- Then the habit of catering to the views of such weirdos is so pregnant in the land that
no amount of explaining will do and answering -"That's ridiculous" only loses one votes.

- And since the "conspi-tasy" crowd never sleeps, GoI has to dance a three person tango.
To avoid this awkward attempt, it is easier to let the rumours float out to sea than to clean
the beaches by hand and truth which explains why the MMRCA losers were allowed to
chat on. This way, GoI can tango to success while the dreamers jerk with the losers.

- Thus, keeping the harshest part of negotiations under wrap minimizes critics' opinion.


By the time things clear up in those muddled minds, the Rafales will be nearing retirement,
Namo will have left politics and the lingering noise made into books in the fiction section.

I find this to be a shrewd way of implementing a need while delaying friction. Go NaMo!

And a great day to you my mate, Tay.


P.S.



Spectre said:


> I don't buy the penultimate point where PM asks for recheck. This is how not things work or at least they didn't used to.


It's like a double pass on erasing hard drives, sort of. If the committees get one check, they
can later claim to have been swindled by nefarious ( added ) details.
If they get a second look and find nothing wrong, they'll be silenced less they admit to incompetency.



Spectre said:


> but then the matter is pending for years and is hardly an emergency.



It is an emergency precisely because it has been pending for years.
Once India gets that, procurements will become almost as easy as for everyone else?

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## PARIKRAMA

[Bregs] said:


> i fail to understand bro when a file is put for final approval before CCS then the law ministry opinion and advise for changes is attached. then why again its being referred back for law ministry approval ???


no not referred. recheck for assurance.

Reference will happen if they have a doubt for any specific point and will seek a legal opinion on that.

Here the recheck is language which covers all aspects. Such checks are more cursory in nature and incorporates to see every point in the approval file has been cleared by respective ministries or not . Even in case say any point a mixed or a ambiguous opinion is given than such a point will be again asked from law ministry for complete clarity.

The draft and internal approval system has data from our own MOD and derived from French side submissions. Its bascially a reassurance that nothing has been missed.



Spectre said:


> I don't buy the penultimate point where PM asks for recheck.
> 
> This is how not things work or atleast they didn't used to. Cabinet briefs are put across after thorough vetting and it is assumed by all that the data presented is Kosher. Put simply if there were any points regarding further vetting or classification from associated ministries or vendors then the matter wouldn't have come in the agenda.
> 
> Discussions as you have said also don't happen in cabinet meeting, they happen informally as cabinet meetings are structured and minuted. Records are achieved.
> 
> Obviously the above doesn't apply to emergency meets but then the matter is pending for years and is hardly an emergency.



CCS is not one meeting. There are multiple parts of the same with initially Economical articles taken first followed by other agenda points.

The whole agenda point discussion was not more than 2 minutes and thus the meeting moved on. Normally its more of all checked and all members agree, approved to be minuted .. thats all. Discussion of points which are referred to other ministry for clarification is minuted.. here it is not referred rather a recheck that everything , every base is covered or not and thats plainly a re-assurance owing to the issue of MMRCA being scrapped and technically the deal size being the one of perception point issue of our masses. The structure of deal is done by rest of the people but initiator to break the logjam is PM himself. Thus, its nothing wrong if he wants he wants to see all things are in order or not.

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## Spectre

PARIKRAMA said:


> no not referred. recheck for assurance.
> 
> Reference will happen if they have a doubt for any specific point and will seek a legal opinion on that.
> 
> Here the recheck is language which covers all aspects. Such checks are more cursory in nature and incorporates to see every point in the approval file has been cleared by respective ministries or not . Even in case say any point a mixed or a ambiguous opinion is given than such a point will be again asked from law ministry for complete clarity.
> 
> The draft and internal approval system has data from our own MOD and derived from French side submissions. Its bascially a reassurance that nothing has been missed.
> 
> 
> 
> CCS is not one meeting. There are multiple parts of the same with initially Economical articles taken first followed by other agenda points.
> 
> The whole agenda point discussion was not more than 2 minutes and thus the meeting moved on. Normally its more of all checked and all members agree, approved to be minuted .. thats all. Discussion of points which are referred to other ministry for clarification is minuted.. here it is not referred rather a recheck that everything , every base is covered or not and thats plainly a re-assurance owing to the issue of MMRCA being scrapped and technically the deal size being the one of perception point issue of our masses. The structure of deal is done by rest of the people but initiator to break the logjam is PM himself. Thus, its nothing wrong if he wants he wants to see all things are in order or not.



That's all well and good. Please understand what I am saying -

PM knew the decision was on agenda as agenda is deigned by PMO for the most part

If he wanted a recheck then ask it before, he just has to pick up the phone and tell DM that be sure to recheck everything and cover bases. If and when everyone is sure then the point is bought out to CCS.

The comment which he made sounds trivial and gives an impression that he doesn't trust his bureaucrats and DM to do the paperwork thoroughly before putting it up for signature before PM of India. This comment is also recorded now in archive that is why such things don't happen in CCS.

What can happen in CCS meeting is this

Arun Jaitley can raise an objection or so can some other cab min that he has concerns on so and so clause and thus the objection of a particular minister is recorded. Congress/UPA meeting was full of such base covering tactics.

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## Indrajit

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Some Bits Based on Source*
> 
> 
> To a query by a senior cabinet minister (from Lutyen Circle fraternity) if any more jet is coming for a line in India or not, the whole folks laughed.
> PM NaMo Looked at DM MP and said in hindi roughly , _i hope its explicit what we want in future part. If needed check that again. And who are coming for that?_
> DM MP said _Partnership, some talks are there with Reliance ,Tata, Kalyani, more are there (aur bhi hai) etc. Bharat Electronics is there also for majority of things. DRDO is there also for the engine. _(he meant GTRE, a lab under DRDO)
> PM NaMo said then , _yes Engine, and what about the other things Doval had talked about?_
> DM MP listed then the technologies being transferred and showed the report of the process and milestones
> PM NaMo then said in hindi roughly , _Anyone else gave similar things?_
> DM MP said _Carter assured few of the things. But nothing in writing or in proper proposal like this. _(pointing to a stack of papers , a report detailing each technology and how transfer is mandated and proposed)
> All burst out laughing
> PM NaMo asked for opinion what others think.
> A senior cabinet minister said we have to set a benchmark with this deal. I hope Law Ministry had seen every point proposed that we get all benefits as we have desired.
> PM Namo said in hindi, _check for every point language and interpretation. Law is funny. so lets take extra few days but be 100% (sau pratishak) sure that nothing is left from this _
> DM MP said will check again and put it in next meeting...



Is this supposedly from the CCS meeting? How many ministers were in that meeting...? ?




VivasvatManu said:


> lol..... you think this conversation is real ?



If it is real & is from the CCS meeting, the source would be easily identifiable.


----------



## VivasvatManu

Taygibay said:


> Correct answer would be both, old boy!
> Politics as in internal to Bharat also being part of "insulating it from propaganda".
> 
> I hope that I will shock few people by noting that Indians love discussing deals.
> In fact, some both in GoI and the general public like discussing problems more
> than achieving solutions or so it seems. To the point where I sometimes wonde-
> red if they made a cut on the cash generated by those convos. Like an IT start-up value?
> 
> Knowing how its people react is IMHoO the motivation for NaMO/MP to do so.
> By keeping the two parts of an acquisition separate in the media as CNL-PN-AA
> mentioned ( "secret deal stuff" ), the present Indian leadership defends its ways.
> Those like a new member who have an Indian centric vision so exaggerated that
> it borders on schizophrenia won't be able to attack both parts of the equation as
> they would in a common package.
> If both parts of that deal were to fail or succeed, nothing is gained but if one garners
> more opposition [ say the high price of only 36 planes ] the other won't follow suite
> or at least not de facto.
> 
> This may seem like a lot of trouble to influence perceptions but consider this :
> 
> - Quite a few Indians believe what they once thought validates what they think in a
> vicious circle, as found again yesterday while reading a sadly renowned national forum.
> To the point where a litany of woes and bad intent was credited to the other side and
> since they trust themselves so much, ended with an incessant list of insults to France.
> No amount of reality can silence these but they still talk and they still vote.
> 
> - Then the habit of catering to the views of such weirdos is so pregnant in the land that
> no amount of explaining will do and answering -"That's ridiculous" only loses one votes.
> 
> - And since the "conspi-tasy" crowd never sleeps, GoI has to dance a three person tango.
> To avoid this awkward attempt, it is easier to let the rumours float out to sea than to clean
> the beaches by hand and truth which explains why the MMRCA losers were allowed to
> chat on. This way, GoI can tango to success while the dreamers jerk with the losers.
> 
> - Thus, keeping the harshest part of negotiations under wrap minimizes critics' opinion.
> 
> 
> By the time things clear up in those muddled minds, the Rafales will be nearing retirement,
> Namo will have left politics and the lingering noise made into books in the fiction section.
> 
> I find this to be a shrewd way of implementing a need while delaying friction. Go NaMo!
> 
> And a great day to you my mate, Tay.
> 
> 
> P.S.



I think its laughable that you are attempting to psycho analyse India in detail. 

What you should do is present the French POV and let Indians present the Indian POV. Your analysis of India is as much of value as my analysis of France and the French. 

Do yourself a favour and stick to facts rather than your own version of reality.


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## Taygibay

VivasvatManu said:


> Do yourself a favour and stick to facts rather than your own version of reality.



MDR!!! I'm being accused by an Indian of lacking in realism?
 Thanks, you just made my day, buddy!

Besides when I stick to facts, folks like you don't understand!

 Have a great day nonetheless and GL, Tay.

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## VivasvatManu

PARIKRAMA said:


> I did not post the list of 16 technologies. So dont worry on that. I only posted things which are so general that its bascially a lowest level classification in terms of confidentiality and potentially not harming us in any manner.
> 
> From 1210 i have waited to see an open source say its postponed bcz of the same fact that i will be out too much in limelight if i post that here,
> 
> The discussion are even more livid. and it touched many other points which are obviously omitted for the same very reason..
> 
> The gist was posted bcz there is a campaign out in media to showcase the close relationship dynamics and a possible new alignment. And truth is far from that. Nothing escapes PM and DM eyes not even the fact that a report of Su35 talks also surfaced in the intel brief and about the proposed joint exercise between our Neighbor and Russia. But then such things i cant post here obviously as i said classification issues.



You can post the list of 27 technologies and the PM breakfast and lunch menu too. 

Either way its unwanted and unwarranted. 

If you are saying that you are countering Media propaganda by selective leaking of Info in PDF (with the blessing of the powers that be) then I guess we all needs to have our heads checked.



Taygibay said:


> MDR!!! I'm being accused by an Indian of lacking in realism?
> Thanks, you just made my day, buddy!



Oh you mean french are Realists and Indians are not ?


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## PARIKRAMA

Spectre said:


> That's all well and good. Please understand what I am saying -
> 
> PM knew the decision was on agenda as agenda is deigned by PMO for the most part
> 
> If he wanted a recheck then ask it before, he just has to pick up the phone and tell DM that be sure to recheck everything and cover bases. If and when everyone is sure then the point is bought out to CCS.
> 
> The comment which he made sounds trivial and gives an impression that he doesn't trust his bureaucrats and DM to do the paperwork thoroughly before putting it up for signature before PM of India. This comment is also recorded now in archive that is why such things don't happen in CCS.
> 
> What can happen in CCS meeting is this
> 
> Arun Jaitley can raise an objection or so can some other cab min that he has concerns on so and so clause and thus the objection of a particular minister is recorded. Congress/UPA meeting was full of such base covering tactics.



I dont know about trust part bcz thats something politicians wont say honestly ever.

The paperwork recheck thoroughly arises from the fact that bench marking of this deal will be done and all future deals will have to be better in terms of the applicable conditions.

Secondly the biggest chunk of the issue is how the so called technology transfer will happen and how if the same is not found to be adequate or in proper form as mandated, the legal ministry's clause for seeking compensation and associated liabilities.

The third is the other deal (MII) involving the mandate which has a built in clause of India opting out of it and not facing any financial loss aspect within a stipulated period and certain preconditions to be fulfilled 

As of what source said, no minister objected there not even Jaitley. It was PM himself who wanted re assurance. His points and queries were clear of which topics are his prime concern.

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## VivasvatManu

Taygibay said:


> Besides when I stick to facts, folks like you don't understand!
> 
> Have a great day nonetheless and GL, Tay.



Ufff ....... maybe you should try talking in French. Would that help ?


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## Taygibay

VivasvatManu said:


> Oh you mean french are Realists and Indians are not ?



I didn't say that, you did but good to know you can take hints.



VivasvatManu said:


> Ufff ....... maybe you should try talking in French. Would that help ?



Oh, yes! My English is good enough for Brits and Americans including
higher education but not for Indians. Reality strikes again, huh?

You're amazing and I'm out; good day, Tay.

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## VivasvatManu

Taygibay said:


> I didn't say that, you did but good to know you can take hints.
> 
> Good day, Tay.



LOL.. what Hint ? It was a blatant Racist comment ..... nothing sly about it. 

I hope you find time to share more of your Psycho babble about Indians. Its quite entertaining.


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## GuardianRED

VivasvatManu said:


> lol..... you think this conversation is real ?


Where its true or not. But over reacting and comparing it some scadal/scam , is why we don't have nice things

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## VivasvatManu

GuardianRED said:


> Where its true or not. But over reacting and comparing it some scadal/scam , is why we don't have nice things



What scandal / scam ?


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## kaykay

It will take few weeks before deal is actually 'signed'....Wait continue!!

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## sathya

I came for celebrations , alas they won't let us that easy

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## Grevion

So when is the next CCS meeting? and the one after that too. We may as well wait for the outcome of the French elections just to be sure that Holland stays and we can move forward with the deal.

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## [Bregs]

litefire said:


> So when is the next CCS meeting? and the one after that too. We may as well wait for the outcome of the French elections just to be sure that Holland stays and we can move forward with the deal.



well said , Govt pretends to be different but the excuse given is lame

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## freeskylord

Send a PDF version of these 320 pages to IAF. They will some how feel we should buy some more aircrafts. haha

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## monitor

Contract for 36 Rafales on verge of finalisation: Government sources Published September 12, 2016 
SOURCE: PTI 
The contract for 36 Rafales is in the last stages of finalisation and the multi-billion Euro deal with France could be announced soon. “Finer points of the contract are being worked out. The deal is almost in final stages,” government sources said. Last month, a report submitted by a team negotiating the much-anticipated Rafale deal with France was cleared by the defence ministry. The file was then sent to the Prime Minister’s office for review and clearance.


Sources said the PMO had sought from Defence Ministry some clarifications on the life cycle costs and unit price of the aircraft which was replied to. French sources have said they are expecting a positive development this month. During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract. Soon after the announcement, the defence ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation. The deal is expected to be worth around 7.89 billion euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly away conditions. The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile, Meteor, and Israeli helmet mounted display. The price of the deal was brought down from nearly 10 billion euros, as sought initially, due to various reasons including tough negotiation by India, the discount offered by the French government and reworking of some of the criteria. It is not clear if the price has been brought down further, but India has been keen on it.

idrw.org . Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website , Kindly don't paste our work in other websites http://idrw.org/contract-36-rafales-verge-finalisation-government-sources/#more-107772 .


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## Imran Khan

another final ? this is some 23873598649th final stage

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## monitor

Imran Khan said:


> another final ? this is some 23873598649th final stage


ye ~15 billion dollar ka mamla hay kuch somoy to lagega


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## Imran Khan

monitor said:


> ye ~15 billion dollar ka mamla hay kuch somoy to lagega


no its was mother of all defence deals as i remember . no one have ever bought 36 fighter planes together

in 2002 we buy 120 + 80 options
in 2007 we buy 80 - 4 options 
in 2014 we buy 36 

next few years we buy 24 - 18 options


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## monitor

Cabinet committee set to okay deal for 36 Rafale fighter aircraft Published September 12, 2016 SOURCE: HINDUSTAN TIMES Sixteen months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter aircraft, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) is set to approve on Monday the closure of negotiations between the defence ministry and French manufacturer Dassault Aviation. The settled price for the twin-engined multi-role fighter is about 7.8 billion Euros with deliveries from 2019 and annual inflation capped at 3.5%. Top sources told Hindustan Times that the defence ministry has sent the finalised deal to the CCS after making requisite changes to its offset section. The deal involves the manufacturer outsourcing 50% of the total amount of the deal from India. “The cost of 36 fighters will be around Rs 7000-8,000 crore lower than that what was being offered to the previous UPA regime in the now cancelled contract for multi-role medium range combat aircraft (MMRCA). Rafale had been shortlisted as the lowest bidder in the MMRCA tender,” said a senior official. Since Modi ordered 36 ready-to-fly fighters from France in April 2015, both the defence ministry and Dassault Aviation officials have been involved in hectic negotiations with defence minister Manohar Parrikar insistent that the cost should be 10-20% less than what was being offered to UPA regime but without compromising on the capabilities of the aircraft. Equipped with a state-of-the-art AESA radar that allows for multiple targeting beyond visual range, the nuclear capable jet will the frontline jet for Indian Air Force (IAF) with Russian Su-30 MKI forming the backbone. Rafale fighters can be armed with the latest air-to-air, air-to-ground, as well as nuclear armament. The 36 aircraft with a full armament complement were offered at a maximum price of 11.6 billion euros with annual inflation pegged at 5%. This has been brought down to 7.8 billion euros with maximum inflation pegged at 3.5.

idrw.org . Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website , Kindly don't paste our work in other websites http://idrw.org/cabinet-committee-set-to-okay-deal-for-36-rafale-fighter-aircraft/#more-107735 .


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## Ankit Kumar 002

Final points of Rafale contract being worked out: Govt sources

Mon, Sep 12, 2016, 19:29 [IST]



New Delhi, Sep 12: The contract for 36 Rafales is in the last stages of finalisation and the multi-billion euro deal with France could be announced soon.
"Final points of the contract are being worked out. The deal is almost in final stages," government sources said. Last month, a report submitted by a team negotiating the much-anticipated Rafale deal with France was cleared by the defence ministry.

The file was then sent to the Prime Minister's office for review and clearance. Sources said the PMO had sought from Defence Ministry some clarifications on the life cycle costs and unit price of the aircraft which was replied to.
French sources have said they are expecting a positive development this month. During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract.
Soon after the announcement, the defence ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation. The deal is expected to be worth around 7.89 billion euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly away conditions.
The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile, Meteor, and Israeli helmet mounted display.
The price of the deal was brought down from nearly 10 billion euros, as sought initially, due to various reasons including tough negotiation by India, the discount offered by the French government and reworking of some of the criteria. It is not clear if the price has been brought down further, but India has been keen on it.
PTI


http://www.oneindia.com/india/final...ct-being-worked-out-govt-sources-2207145.html

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> I hope that I will shock few people by noting that Indians love discussing deals.



It has much less to do with Indians in love with talking _and_ more to do with two unreasonably stubborn countries butting heads. We don't have the same problem with the Russians.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

@WAJsal @waz @Oscar please merge this with the sticky thread.


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## monitor

Imran Khan said:


> no its was mother of all defence deals as i remember . no one have ever bought 36 fighter planes together
> 
> in 2002 we buy 120 + 80 options
> in 2007 we buy 80 - 4 options
> in 2014 we buy 36
> 
> next few years we buy 24 - 18 options


those were copy of 50 vintage Mig-21, F-7PG not comparable with 4+++ Rafale .


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## OrionHunter

Someone plleassse wake me up when the first Rafale touches down here.


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## wiseone2

Imran Khan said:


> another final ? this is some 23873598649th final stage



probably a number larger than that



OrionHunter said:


> Someone plleassse wake me up when the first Rafale touches down here.


i would like a wakeup call too


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## Imran Khan

OrionHunter said:


> Someone plleassse wake me up when the first Rafale touches down here.


you need to go in qouma then


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## cerberus

monitor said:


> those were copy of 50 vintage Mig-21, F-7PG not comparable with 4+++ Rafale .


F-7PG is not Comparable to Mig-21 Bison Which can Fire R-77 BVR

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## RoadRunner401

Headline news;

Flight time to Mars has been reduced to 2 hours and 36 minutes from 150-*300 days.*

India signs deal to buy Rafale jets


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## monitor

RoadRunner401 said:


> Headline news;
> 
> Flight time to Mars has been reduced to 2 hours and 36 minutes from 150-*300 days.*
> 
> India signs deal to buy Rafale jets


are you trying to undermine India's achievement in space technology with the purchase of Rafale ?


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## #hydra#

monitor said:


> ye ~15 billion dollar ka mamla hay kuch somoy to lagega


Its been nearly 15 years man,and its a very long time where average life of human being is 72.


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## Imran Khan

#hydra# said:


> Its been nearly 15 years man,and its a very long time where average life of human being is 72.


those pilots whom dreamed to fly MMRCA in 90s-2000s area already retired


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## zebra7

Imran Khan said:


> no its was mother of all defence deals as i remember . no one have ever bought 36 fighter planes together
> 
> in 2002 we buy 120 + 80 options
> in 2007 we buy 80 - 4 options
> in 2014 we buy 36
> 
> next few years we buy 24 - 18 options



Janab, when USAF inducted F-16, they ordered 36 unit in first batch.

And those are only Fly away condition with G2G Deal. The other offset order will come next.

Cheers Karo aur So Jao Janab.


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## xyxmt

monitor said:


> Contract for 36 Rafales on verge of finalisation: Government sources Published September 12, 2016
> SOURCE: PTI
> The contract for 36 Rafales is in the last stages of finalisation and the multi-billion Euro deal with France could be announced soon. “Finer points of the contract are being worked out. The deal is almost in final stages,” government sources said. Last month, a report submitted by a team negotiating the much-anticipated Rafale deal with France was cleared by the defence ministry. The file was then sent to the Prime Minister’s office for review and clearance.
> 
> 
> Sources said the PMO had sought from Defence Ministry some clarifications on the life cycle costs and unit price of the aircraft which was replied to. French sources have said they are expecting a positive development this month. During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract. Soon after the announcement, the defence ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation. The deal is expected to be worth around 7.89 billion euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly away conditions. The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile, Meteor, and Israeli helmet mounted display. The price of the deal was brought down from nearly 10 billion euros, as sought initially, due to various reasons including tough negotiation by India, the discount offered by the French government and reworking of some of the criteria. It is not clear if the price has been brought down further, but India has been keen on it.
> 
> idrw.org . Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website , Kindly don't paste our work in other websites http://idrw.org/contract-36-rafales-verge-finalisation-government-sources/#more-107772 .



when I was a young boy I heard the same news, when i was in my prime years I heard it again, I heard this news once again when i step into the practical world and got my first job, Now my kids finished university and my Son entered the practical life as he got his first job....and i hear this news yet again.....someone said Indians never change


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## zebra7

Imran Khan said:


> those pilots whom dreamed to fly MMRCA in 90s-2000s area already retired



Those Pilots already have 4+ Gen fighter plane namely Su-30 MKI, but I wonder PAF pilot might dream of flying atleast 4th Gen plane, because only lucky one could get the chance of flying F-16 block 52, because there are only 18 in number.

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## R!CK

randomradio said:


> It has much less to do with Indians in love with talking about more to do with two unreasonably stubborn countries butting heads. We don't have the same problem with the Russians.



But we have other problems with Russians. 

Good Day!

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## [Bregs]

R!CK said:


> But we have other problems with Russians.
> 
> Good Day!




LOL True, but we are using Russian weaponry since past 50 yrs so accustomed to fix it now ?

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## PARIKRAMA

*Snehesh Alex Philip* ‏@sneheshphilip  12m12 minutes ago
Formal decision on #*Rafale* deal soon. *It is a mere formality.*



@Nilgiri @Abingdonboy @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @anant_s @Taygibay https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @Ankit Kumar 002 @GuardianRED @Armani @randomradio

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## R!CK

[Bregs] said:


> LOL True, but we are using Russian weaponry since past 50 yrs so accustomed to fix it now ?



We been using Russian weaponry past 50 years due to:

1. Lack of options.
2. Small price tag
3. Our lack of understanding in Life Cycle Cost factor.
4. Russian vodka.
5. Russian chicks.

However Russians do know how to deal with India. It's very easy, if Indians bargain for more discount reduce the cost of product and increase the cost of after sales services. This way Indians will think they pulled a winner and Russian's will end up getting the same money or more.

We used their products for 50 odd years and still have problems due to the shoddy approach of our DPSUs. This will change as we involve private firms more, it might even force the DPSUs to perform better to remain relevant.

Good Day!

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## [Bregs]

R!CK said:


> We been using Russian weaponry past 50 years due to:
> 
> 1. Lack of options.
> 2. Small price tag
> 3. Our lack of understanding in Life Cycle Cost factor.
> *4. Russian vodka.
> 5. Russian chicks. *
> 
> *We used their products for 50 odd years and still have problems due to the shoddy approach of our DPSUs. This will change as we involve private firms more, it might even force the DPSUs to perform better to remain relevant.*
> 
> Good Day!



You are right now Kalyani is been reportedly roped in for engine of kamov and Russians might deliver technology to indian privtae sector which is big plus

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## randomradio

R!CK said:


> But we have other problems with Russians.
> 
> Good Day!



Our problems with the Russians are not bureaucratic even though some contracts could have been better negotiated. We negotiated the new price of the FGFA in just 3 months. 

We basically learned from our mistakes with the Scorpene and the Su-30/T-90 deals. We aren't repeating those mistakes now (I hope), with both the French and the Russians.

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## [Bregs]

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 333808
> 
> 
> *Snehesh Alex Philip* ‏@sneheshphilip  12m12 minutes ago
> Formal decision on #*Rafale* deal soon. *It is a mere formality.*
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @anant_s @Taygibay https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @Ankit Kumar 002 @GuardianRED @Armani @randomradio



we already got this update from @PARIKRAMA in afternoon

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## Ankit Kumar 002

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/775341997418770432
(Liked by N Rajput) 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/775356397693374464

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## Hellfire

R!CK said:


> We been using Russian weaponry past 50 years due to:
> 
> 1. Lack of options.
> 2. Small price tag
> 3. Our lack of understanding in Life Cycle Cost factor.




@R!CK @[Bregs]

Slight clarification here. The reason for our use of Soviet equipment lies in the US parleys with both India and Pakistan to form a 'boundary' against Communist USSR and PRC in 1950-52 period. US was keen to have both countries in a broad alliance against the Communists.

It is in this backdrop that Yahya Khan also made his offer to India which was not taken seriously by Nehru. By 1953 Pakistan was firmly in US camp pre-dominantly due to being aware of potential border dispute with PRC in Hunza Principality. This made US supply Pakistan with aid and weapons, while India was still hungover with Non Aligned posture, much to US' chagrin.

This led to India ultimately moving towards Soviets after a few years (specifically 1959, the tear of break between USSR and PRC).


As for concept of LCC, that has to do with buying 'sasta' over quality. It is a quality ingratiated socially into us. Who can be blamed!!

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Right now I am bit more positive on Rafale because this person seems pissed off. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/775322171061178368

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/775349430472114177

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## Grevion

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Right now I am bit more positive on Rafale because this person seems pissed off.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/775322171061178368
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/775349430472114177


Shukla ji forgot to add Gripen there with the LCA and AMCA.

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## anant_s

Bhai ye waaley Shukla ji better hain 

Sorry for troll post, just couldn't resist.

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## mirage

PARIKRAMA said:


> One group whose name is prominent is Reliance Defence+ Samtel+ Bharat Electronics. This group partners is expected to be joined by another company to boost the credibility bcz of ADAG groups present financial position . The inclusion of a PSU in the form of BEL or any other company will be for seamless flow of tech transfer and hence some point to HAL and some point to L&T being also included.
> 
> The decision finally will be conveyed when strategic partnership is out.but chiefly as of now there is a understanding between Reliance defence, Samtel and Bharat Electronics to complete the JV with Dassault to produce Rafales and Falcons ...


goodevening parikrama sir , reliance defence ie new company formed after pipavav's acquisition or reliance infra .

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## PARIKRAMA

*Details of Rafale contract finalised: Government sources*
By PTI | Sep 12, 2016, *09.13 PM IST
*
NEW DELHI: Details of the multi-billion euro contract for 36 Rafale fighter aircraft have been finalised and the government is now working on the inter-governmental agreement (IGA) with France.

* Government sources said the cost, offsets and service details have been finalised and now the effort is to firm up IGA as envisaged in a pact signed on January this year when French President Francois Hollande was in New Delhi.*

* "The work on the inter-governmental agreement with France has started and would be finalised soon,*" one of the sources told PTI.

* The sources said the text and language of the agreement is being fine-tuned and the deal is in the final stage.*

* "The deal is in final stage," Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told reporters here when asked if it has been cleared by the government.*

Last month, a report submitted by the team negotiating the much-anticipated Rafale deal with France was cleared by the Defence Ministry. The file was then sent to the Prime Minister's Office for review and clearance.

The sources said the PMO had sought from the Defence Ministry some clarifications on the life cycle costs and unit price of the aircraft which were replied to.

The deal is expected to be worth around 7.89 billion euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly-away conditions.

The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile, Meteor, and Israeli helmet mounted display.

The delivery for the fighter aircraft is expected to begin in 2019, with an annual inflation capped at 3.5 per cent.

The price of the deal was brought down from nearly 10 billion euros, as sought initially, due to various reasons including tough negotiation by India, the discount offered by the French government and reworking of some of the criteria.

During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract.

Soon after the announcement, the Defence Ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...cms?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
++

Please connect with what i said earlier





https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-318#post-8678984






https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-310#post-8655150

Now you all can understand why PM NaMO wants reassurance bcz its the language that goes into the IGA , a draft which has been circulated and more or less already agreed between both france and India. But still since it points to all such things as listed above in earlier posts, its imperative its cross checked again to be on safer side.

As i said this deal will become bench mark. In case in future any other aircraft will be bought be it FGFA or F16/18 or even Gripen E, the deal terms have to be similar or better.

India will now raise the stakes further for any future jet production planned by majors like LM, Boeing, Sukhoi or Saab.

++

@Abingdonboy @Vergennes @anant_s @Taygibay @MilSpec @SpArK @randomradio @Armani @GuardianRED @Ankit Kumar 002 @[Bregs] @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Nilgiri 

+++

From Horse's mouth






Just last stage seal left.. a formality



mirage said:


> goodevening parikrama sir , reliance defence ie new company formed after pipavav's acquisition or reliance infra .



Pls no sir bro


Reliance Defence Limited, established as a wholly owned subsidiary of Reliance Infrastructure Limited, has 11 subsidiaries in niche segments of the Defence sector.





http://www.rinfra.com/defence.html

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## [Bregs]

No news is telling about MII of Rafale what will happen to it ?

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## Hellfire

[Bregs] said:


> No news is telling about MII of Rafale what will happen to it ?



If 36 are signed on .... MII follows. Otherwise these guys will do exactly what Rajiv Gandhi did, neither put a Mig-29 line nor a Mirage-2000 line, offers for which were available.

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## anant_s

As we say _Chidiya bithana baaki hei_ 
Good news, Finally India gets Rafale, a plane that IAF wanted
& more importantly at a price Indian government wanted.

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## Grevion

anant_s said:


> View attachment 333817
> 
> Bhai ye waaley Shukla ji better hain
> 
> Sorry for troll post, just couldn't resist.


 This shukla ji is a legend, along with pandey ji, bhatiya, patel and offcourse our beloved musaddilal.


PARIKRAMA said:


> *Details of Rafale contract finalised: Government sources*
> By PTI | Sep 12, 2016, *09.13 PM IST
> *
> NEW DELHI: Details of the multi-billion euro contract for 36 Rafale fighter aircraft have been finalised and the government is now working on the inter-governmental agreement (IGA) with France.
> 
> * Government sources said the cost, offsets and service details have been finalised and now the effort is to firm up IGA as envisaged in a pact signed on January this year when French President Francois Hollande was in New Delhi.*
> 
> * "The work on the inter-governmental agreement with France has started and would be finalised soon,*" one of the sources told PTI.
> 
> * The sources said the text and language of the agreement is being fine-tuned and the deal is in the final stage.*
> 
> * "The deal is in final stage," Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told reporters here when asked if it has been cleared by the government.*
> 
> Last month, a report submitted by the team negotiating the much-anticipated Rafale deal with France was cleared by the Defence Ministry. The file was then sent to the Prime Minister's Office for review and clearance.
> 
> The sources said the PMO had sought from the Defence Ministry some clarifications on the life cycle costs and unit price of the aircraft which were replied to.
> 
> The deal is expected to be worth around 7.89 billion euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly-away conditions.
> 
> The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile, Meteor, and Israeli helmet mounted display.
> 
> The delivery for the fighter aircraft is expected to begin in 2019, with an annual inflation capped at 3.5 per cent.
> 
> The price of the deal was brought down from nearly 10 billion euros, as sought initially, due to various reasons including tough negotiation by India, the discount offered by the French government and reworking of some of the criteria.
> 
> During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract.
> 
> Soon after the announcement, the Defence Ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.
> 
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...cms?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
> ++
> 
> Please connect with what i said earlier
> 
> View attachment 333816
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-318#post-8678984
> 
> 
> View attachment 333818
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-310#post-8655150
> 
> Now you all can understand why PM NaMO wants reassurance bcz its the language that goes into the IGA , a draft which has been circulated and more or less already agreed between both france and India. But still since it points to all such things as listed above in earlier posts, its imperative its cross checked again to be on safer side.
> 
> As i said this deal will become bench mark. In case in future any other aircraft will be bought be it FGFA or F16/18 or even Gripen E, the deal terms have to be similar or better.
> 
> India will now raise the stakes further for any future jet production planned by majors like LM, Boeing, Sukhoi or Saab.
> 
> ++
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vergennes @anant_s @Taygibay @MilSpec @SpArK @randomradio @Armani @GuardianRED @Ankit Kumar 002 @[Bregs] @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN
> 
> +++
> 
> From Horse's mouth
> 
> View attachment 333819
> 
> 
> Just last stage seal left.. a formality
> 
> 
> 
> Pls no sir bro
> 
> 
> Reliance Defence Limited, established as a wholly owned subsidiary of Reliance Infrastructure Limited, has 11 subsidiaries in niche segments of the Defence sector.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.rinfra.com/defence.html


So we Indians have developed a new "thapa" stage for our trade deals.

After the "final stage" the deal is now in "thapa stage" everyone.

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## R!CK

hellfire said:


> If 36 are signed on .... MII follows. Otherwise these guys will do exactly what Rajiv Gandhi did, neither put a Mig-29 line nor a Mirage-2000 line, offers for which were available.



Exactly! If India is going to order 36 Rafale without an MII component then I'd rather give up wasting my time on showing interest in following IAF procurements. It should be either No rafales or a Big fleet of rafale. You can't have a small fleet of several types of aircraft within an airforce and keep bleeding money over operational costs these days. Let's also remember, when rafale enters our fleet, it will be our 8th type and if we are going to add up more types, it will not let us trim down the number of types and have a more organised fleet.

Good Day!

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## Skillrex

@PARIKRAMA.. So only 36 coming.. or more thru MII ?

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 333819



@Picdelamirand-oil 
Now you can't claim Parrikar was upset by the Rafale deal.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Skillrex said:


> @PARIKRAMA.. So only 36 coming.. or more thru MII ?



If 36, atleast 153 more.

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## Param

On News X channel,while replying to a charge that present BJP Govt has done away with initial plan to produce 126-18=108 planes in india and are now buying 36 planes directly from France ,the BJP spokesperson said - MII plan is still there and planes will be made in India.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Le Rafale en Inde, c'est brûlant

According to reliable sources, a signature between Dassault Aviation and New Delhi would be imminent. The entire Indian press echoed Monday by an acceleration of the calendar.
Things are heating up hard for the Rafale in India. Is this yet another false alarm or end of suspense on the signing of a contract of sale of 36 Rafale for the army of the Indian Air (IAF)? According to reliable sources, a signature between Dassault Aviation and New Delhi is imminent, perhaps around mid-September. Moreover, the entire Indian press, which evaluates the contract amount to less than € 8 billion (including weapons), echoes this Monday an accelerated timetable with fire green CCS (Cabinet Committee on Security), chaired by the Prime Minister and approved acquisition of Rafale. Asked by La Tribune, Dassault Aviation had no comment.

New Delhi and the manufacturer agreed on everything for several weeks. If Dassault Aviation formalized this agreement, it would secure the production rate of two Rafale per month and so compensate the postponement of deliveries for the second part of the fourth installment Rafale (remaining 34 aircraft to be delivered over the 60 aircraft ordered by the La France).

The saga of the Rafale in India
France and India signed in January 2016 an intergovernmental agreement (IGA) during the State visit of Francois Hollande. This intergovernmental agreement was a precondition for a trade agreement. Especially since Narendra Modi wanted a state to state agreement during his visit to France in April 2015 where he announced an order for 36 Rafale "shelf" or ready to fly.

In the wake of the intergovernmental agreement, Dassault Aviation included the signing of the contract "under four weeks." This eventually took a little more time as is customary in India. The order value was estimated between 10 and 12 billion euros, excluding arms, according to information from The Tribune. This will lead quickly was based on a decision of the Department of Indian Defence announced December 8, 2015 in a statement that made negotiating team to discuss the terms of the purchase of 36 Rafale had " recommended an agreement "project.

A fleet of hazardous combat aircraft
The 36 Rafale and associated systems and armaments should be delivered "in the same configuration" as is required under the contract M-MRCA (126 Rafale), which was canceled by New Delhi. The devices were tested and approved by the army of the Indian air. These fighters will be useful to protect the Indian airspace.

Because during the last three years (2013 to November 2015), India has recorded 32 total violations of its airspace by aircraft of foreign countries. In addition, during the past ten years between 2003 and 2013, the army of the Indian air (or Indian Air Force IAF), Fourth World air power, lost 38 MiG-21, as the Department of Indian defense. The IAF still has a fleet of 254 MiG-21 in service, which will gradually be removed from the air bases, including the MiG-21 T-77. The first MiG-21 entered service in the army of the Indian Air in March 1963.

Translated from Google Translate 
Source :- http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...e/le-rafale-en-inde-c-est-brulant-598464.html

@PARIKRAMA

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## Param

Listen from 10m 30 secs till 12 mins.BJP spokesperson says that talks with French for manufacture of 108 planes is still going on.And it will be manufactured in India with 50% offset clause.

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## Abingdonboy

[Bregs] said:


> lo kar lo baat ab fir next metting tak taal diya gya es cursed deal ko





Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Right now I am bit more positive on Rafale because this person seems pissed off.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/775322171061178368
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/775349430472114177


stopped pushing the F-35 for a moment to pretend he is supporting local industry. He is clearly pandering to the ignorant masses who don't understand that the LCA and Rafale are for entirely different roles and are not interchangeable.



PARIKRAMA said:


> *Details of Rafale contract finalised: Government sources*
> By PTI | Sep 12, 2016, *09.13 PM IST
> *
> NEW DELHI: Details of the multi-billion euro contract for 36 Rafale fighter aircraft have been finalised and the government is now working on the inter-governmental agreement (IGA) with France.
> 
> * Government sources said the cost, offsets and service details have been finalised and now the effort is to firm up IGA as envisaged in a pact signed on January this year when French President Francois Hollande was in New Delhi.*
> 
> * "The work on the inter-governmental agreement with France has started and would be finalised soon,*" one of the sources told PTI.
> 
> * The sources said the text and language of the agreement is being fine-tuned and the deal is in the final stage.*
> 
> * "The deal is in final stage," Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told reporters here when asked if it has been cleared by the government.*
> 
> Last month, a report submitted by the team negotiating the much-anticipated Rafale deal with France was cleared by the Defence Ministry. The file was then sent to the Prime Minister's Office for review and clearance.
> 
> The sources said the PMO had sought from the Defence Ministry some clarifications on the life cycle costs and unit price of the aircraft which were replied to.
> 
> The deal is expected to be worth around 7.89 billion euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly-away conditions.
> 
> The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile, Meteor, and Israeli helmet mounted display.
> 
> The delivery for the fighter aircraft is expected to begin in 2019, with an annual inflation capped at 3.5 per cent.
> 
> The price of the deal was brought down from nearly 10 billion euros, as sought initially, due to various reasons including tough negotiation by India, the discount offered by the French government and reworking of some of the criteria.
> 
> During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract.
> 
> Soon after the announcement, the Defence Ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.
> 
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...cms?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
> ++
> 
> Please connect with what i said earlier
> 
> View attachment 333816
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-318#post-8678984
> 
> 
> View attachment 333818
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-310#post-8655150
> 
> Now you all can understand why PM NaMO wants reassurance bcz its the language that goes into the IGA , a draft which has been circulated and more or less already agreed between both france and India. But still since it points to all such things as listed above in earlier posts, its imperative its cross checked again to be on safer side.
> 
> As i said this deal will become bench mark. In case in future any other aircraft will be bought be it FGFA or F16/18 or even Gripen E, the deal terms have to be similar or better.
> 
> India will now raise the stakes further for any future jet production planned by majors like LM, Boeing, Sukhoi or Saab.
> 
> ++
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vergennes @anant_s @Taygibay @MilSpec @SpArK @randomradio @Armani @GuardianRED @Ankit Kumar 002 @[Bregs] @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN
> 
> +++
> 
> From Horse's mouth
> 
> View attachment 333819
> 
> 
> Just last stage seal left.. a formality
> 
> 
> 
> Pls no sir bro
> 
> 
> Reliance Defence Limited, established as a wholly owned subsidiary of Reliance Infrastructure Limited, has 11 subsidiaries in niche segments of the Defence sector.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.rinfra.com/defence.html


Pretty disappointed about the 2019 timeline, was holding out hope for 2018 as @Picdelamirand-oil had mentioned. 

The priority has to be getting that MII set up ASAP, as we have discussed in the past, the IAF needs to start inducting 3-4 SQNs a year just to cover for the phasing out of current aircraft from 2019 onwards.

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## 4GTejasBVR

OK till now nothing came out


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## CNL-PN-AA

*India-France Fighter Jet Deal May Be Inked This Week*

After a 16 month delay, a contract for the purchase of 36 French fighter jets could be signed within a week.

By Franz-Stefan Gady
September 13, 2016

This week, India’s Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), chaired by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, is set to approve a $9 billion contract for the purchase of 36 fourth generation multirole fighter jets for the Indian Air Force, according to Indian government sources.

A high level delegation of French defense contractors involved in the government-to-government deal for 36 off-the-shelf Dassault Rafale twin-engine, fourth generation multirole fighter aircraft are currently in New Delhi to work out last minute details, The New Indian Express reports.

French aircraft maker Dassault Aviations will manufacture the aircraft, MBDA Missile Systems will supply the weapons package, and Thales Group will be responsible for the fighter jet’s avionics. “Representatives all three involved defense firms are in talks to take swift decision on any last minute doubt. Certainly, the deal is making a headway and should be done in a week’s time,” an unidentified Indian defense official said on September 12.
Enjoying this article? Click here to subscribe for full access. Just $5 a month.

There was some speculation that the CCS could approve the deal today. This, however, does not appear to have been the case. One of the reasons for the delay has been France’s insistence that a government-to-government contract should be signed prior to the conclusion of a 50 percent offset deal.

“According to the offset deal, France will invest 30 percent into military aeronautics-related research programs and 20 percent into local production of Rafale components. French defense contractors have also agreed to supply radar and thrust vectoring for missiles technologies, among other things,” I explained previously (See: “India-France Fighter Jet Deal Faces Further Delays”).

Further points of contention were the delivery date of the aircraft—the first Rafale warplanes are slated to be delivered roughly 18 months after the signing of the final contract—and technical issues. “The Indian Air Force wanted a customized version of the aircraft including modifications and reconfigurations to allow the installation of Indian-made and commercial-off-the-shelf systems and weapons,” I reported earlier in the year.

As I explained previously (See: “Confirmed: India to Buy Only 36 Rafale Fighter Jets”):

Initially, the MMRCA [medium multi-role combat aircraft] project envisioned that India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would build 108 out of a 126 total Rafale jets locally, with the first batch of 18 fighter jets directly delivered from France in flyaway condition.

However, New Delhi unexpectedly announced in April of this year that it would only purchase 36 French-made Rafale fighters instead of the original 126…

The price tag for the 36 off-the-shelf Rafale will substantially be cheaper since France is no longer obligated to build the planes in India.

According to a senior defense official interviewed by the Hindustan Times, “the cost of 36 fighters will be around Rs 7000-8,000 crore lower than that what was being offered to the previous UPA regime in the now canceled contract for multi-role medium range combat aircraft (MMRCA).” India’s defense minister, Manohar Parrikar, has been insisting on a 10-20 percent price reduction. While no official price has been announced, the Indian Defense Ministry’s Defense Acquisition Council (DAC), headed by Parrikar, approved the deal in August indicating that the disagreement over the price has been resolved. It is now up to the Prime Minister’s Office to give the final go-ahead.

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## New Resolve

323 pages Thread 2 . Here's an Eid Gift for you guys

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## ashok321

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...d-government-sources/articleshow/54297062.cms







NEW DELHI: Details of the multi-billion euro contract for 36 Rafale fighter aircraft have been finalised and the government is now working on the inter-governmental agreement (IGA) with France. 

Government sources said the cost, offsets and service details have been finalised and now the effort is to firm up IGA as envisaged in a pact signed on January this year when French President Francois Hollande was in New Delhi. 

"The work on the inter-governmental agreement with France has started and would be finalised soon," one of the sources told PTI. 

The sources said the text and language of the agreement is being fine-tuned and the deal is in the final stage. 

"The deal is in final stage," Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told reporters here when asked if it has been cleared by the government. 

Last month, a report submitted by the team negotiating the much-anticipated Rafale deal with France was cleared by the Defence Ministry. The file was then sent to the Prime Minister's Office for review and clearance. 

The sources said the PMO had sought from the Defence Ministry some clarifications on the life cycle costs and unit price of the aircraft which were replied to. 

The deal is expected to be worth around 7.89 billion euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly-away conditions. 

The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile, Meteor, and Israeli helmet mounted display. 

The delivery for the fighter aircraft is expected to begin in 2019, with an annual inflationcapped at 3.5 per cent. 

The price of the deal was brought down from nearly 10 billion euros, as sought initially, due to various reasons including tough negotiation by India, the discount offered by the French government and reworking of some of the criteria. 

During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract. 

Soon after the announcement, the Defence Ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.


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## Skull and Bones

Chalo, atleast Prem Ratan Dhan Payo.

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## Cherokee

I will only believe it when I see it .

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## T90TankGuy

Let me know when its signed.

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## -xXx-

Its just finalised and not final-est finalized. 

Parrikar may still ask for one Meteor free for each Rafale.

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## Incog_nito

Will this deal be increased from 36 to 100/110 of them; finally?


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## kaykay

-xXx- said:


> Its just finalised and not final-est finalized.
> 
> Parrikar may still ask for one Meteor free for each Rafale.


haha I won't be surprised.

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## [Bregs]

This deal will be now rechecked for any discrepancy left so now as usual chill for couple of weeks more

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## kaykay

[Bregs] said:


> This deal will be now rechecked for any discrepancy left so now as usual chill for couple of weeks more


Yeah bro. Since commercial negotiations are finally over( thanks God for that as every time we were close to do that, they had some new issue) and final draft has been finalised I believe finally we are close to signing the deal as hardly anything is left now. Should be done in next 15 days.

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## 4GTejasBVR

Before this Saturday we will come to know

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## Trying to be honest

It feels like the deal is being intentionally delayed and could be timed close to French presidential election to give the incumbent French president a much needed boost close to the polls.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

Trying to be honest said:


> It feels like the deal is being intentionally delayed and could be timed close to French presidential election to give the incumbent French president a much needed boost close to the polls.


Majority of French people don't care about this deal, don't even know that there is negociation between India and France for buying Rafale. Each month Airbus sale are more important that this deal without any advertising.

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## zebra7

https://www.facebook.com/TejasMrca/

Courtesy Tejas India's mrca :

Okay, so let's clear some *misconceptions* regarding the Rafale deal

*1. Offsets:* Total 50% of the deal and ("surprise") ToT

Thirty percent offsets will be embarked for future military aviation research and development (R&D) programs and the remaining 20 percent will be with Indian [defense] industries making components for Rafale.

Safran and Thales will join Dassault in providing state-of-the-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics,

*2. Advanced weaponry*

IAF wants and includes Mica air-to-air missile, Scalp cruise missile and Meteor beyond-visual-range missile and precision-guided munitions.

*3. More payload*

An IAF source said India-specific Rafale aircraft will be able to carry 10 tons of weaponry. The current capacity is 9.5 tons so this could mean improved M-88 engines.

*4. Faster delivery*

The first Rafale is expected to be delivered within 20 months of signing the G2G agreement. This is only possible if the jets currently under assembly and marked for Armee De L'air are re-routed for India.

*5. Deployment*

Out of the 36 aircraft,18 will be deployed at Ambala air base bordering Pakistan and another 18 will be deployed at an air base in the eastern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh, bordering China.

*6. More Rafales?*

There is a long-term requirement of about 10 squadrons of Rafale aircraft under MMRCA

There are many who think that the $8.8 Billion is far too expensive for 36 Rafale jets. Let's take a look shall we?

~ The fly away cost for a single Rafale airframe is $85 Million (according to official french documents)
So for 36 Rafales = 36 x 85 = $3.06 Billion

~ IAF is getting two types of air to air missiles as well as two types of air to ground missiles. So the weapons package per Rafale costs around $25 million (average) = 36 x 25 = $900 Million

~ Setting up of two bases and maintenance depots costs $1.2 Billion

~ The deal said that it would cover 10 years of maintenance and spares. The total LCC is calculated for 40 years and it comes to around 2.5 times the price of airframes (average).
Hence, for 10 years = 2.5 x 3.06 / 4 = $1.92 Billion ($53.4 Million per Rafale)

~ So far, the total adds upto $7.08 Billion.
The remaining 8.8 - 7.08 = $1.72 Billion is for ToT and covers the 50% offsets (that means, 8.8 / 2 = $4.4 Billion will be re-invested back in India)

Quoting $245 Million/ Rafale is just plain stupid. What people don't understand is that if India goes for remaining 90 Rafales for MMRCA, we'll have to pay only for the airframes, weapon and maintenance, since the two bases being set-up can handle three squadrons each without major expenditure.

That is 90 * ( 85 + 25 + 53.4 ) = $14.7 Billion excluding another $500 Million for upgradation of the bases. (again with 50% offsets)

So the total cost for 126 Rafales will be $24 Billion (pretty close to the $20 Billion quoted in the original MMRCA deal adjusting for inflation and ToT)

(Note - The figures are estimates and only provided to give you an idea as to the real cost break-up structure. The cost for 90 remaining jets will increase due to the 'Make in India' initiative for setting up assembly line. But the re-investment will compensate most of the additional cost)

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## migflug

zebra7 said:


> https://www.facebook.com/TejasMrca/
> 
> Courtesy Tejas India's mrca :
> 
> Okay, so let's clear some *misconceptions* regarding the Rafale deal
> 
> *1. Offsets:* Total 50% of the deal and ("surprise") ToT
> 
> Thirty percent offsets will be embarked for future military aviation research and development (R&D) programs and the remaining 20 percent will be with Indian [defense] industries making components for Rafale.
> 
> Safran and Thales will join Dassault in providing state-of-the-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics,
> 
> *2. Advanced weaponry*
> 
> IAF wants and includes Mica air-to-air missile, Scalp cruise missile and Meteor beyond-visual-range missile and precision-guided munitions.
> 
> *3. More payload*
> 
> An IAF source said India-specific Rafale aircraft will be able to carry 10 tons of weaponry. The current capacity is 9.5 tons so this could mean improved M-88 engines.
> 
> *4. Faster delivery*
> 
> The first Rafale is expected to be delivered within 20 months of signing the G2G agreement. This is only possible if the jets currently under assembly and marked for Armee De L'air are re-routed for India.
> 
> *5. Deployment*
> 
> Out of the 36 aircraft,18 will be deployed at Ambala air base bordering Pakistan and another 18 will be deployed at an air base in the eastern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh, bordering China.
> 
> *6. More Rafales?*
> 
> There is a long-term requirement of about 10 squadrons of Rafale aircraft under MMRCA
> 
> There are many who think that the $8.8 Billion is far too expensive for 36 Rafale jets. Let's take a look shall we?
> 
> ~ The fly away cost for a single Rafale airframe is $85 Million (according to official french documents)
> So for 36 Rafales = 36 x 85 = $3.06 Billion
> 
> ~ IAF is getting two types of air to air missiles as well as two types of air to ground missiles. So the weapons package per Rafale costs around $25 million (average) = 36 x 25 = $900 Million
> 
> ~ Setting up of two bases and maintenance depots costs $1.2 Billion
> 
> ~ The deal said that it would cover 10 years of maintenance and spares. The total LCC is calculated for 40 years and it comes to around 2.5 times the price of airframes (average).
> Hence, for 10 years = 2.5 x 3.06 / 4 = $1.92 Billion ($53.4 Million per Rafale)
> 
> ~ So far, the total adds upto $7.08 Billion.
> The remaining 8.8 - 7.08 = $1.72 Billion is for ToT and covers the 50% offsets (that means, 8.8 / 2 = $4.4 Billion will be re-invested back in India)
> 
> Quoting $245 Million/ Rafale is just plain stupid. What people don't understand is that if India goes for remaining 90 Rafales for MMRCA, we'll have to pay only for the airframes, weapon and maintenance, since the two bases being set-up can handle three squadrons each without major expenditure.
> 
> That is 90 * ( 85 + 25 + 53.4 ) = $14.7 Billion excluding another $500 Million for upgradation of the bases. (again with 50% offsets)
> 
> So the total cost for 126 Rafales will be $24 Billion (pretty close to the $20 Billion quoted in the original MMRCA deal adjusting for inflation and ToT)
> 
> (Note - The figures are estimates and only provided to give you an idea as to the real cost break-up structure. The cost for 90 remaining jets will increase due to the 'Make in India' initiative for setting up assembly line. But the re-investment will compensate most of the additional cost)



This page always brings same calculation every few months

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## jaiind

NEW DELHI: The much anticipated contract for 36 Rafale fighter jets is likely to be sealed soon as both the countries have finalised the details for the deal which will cost about Euro 7.87 billion.

Government sources said the cost, offsets and service details have been finalised and the work is being done on the Inter Governmental Agreement for the deal.

A "working team" from France is already in town with their own translators and are going through the contract, running into several thousand pages, with their Indian counterparts.

The sources said that once the IGA is firmed up, the document will go back to the Cabinet Committee on Security for a final clearance.

They said that India has been able to save over Euro 590 million through tough price negotiations which began in January this year.

Though the deal could have been firmed up earlier, issues like pricing and offsets took time as India wanted a better contract.

Following intervention by Prime Minister Modi late last year, France agreed for a 50 per cent offset clause.

This means creating business worth at least three billion Euros for Indian companies, both big and small, and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets.

A high-level delegation from France could come down for the formal signing of the contract, French sources said.

The delivery for the fighter aircraft is expected to begin in 2019, with an annual inflation capped at 3.5 per cent.

The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile 'Meteor', and Israeli helmet mounted display.

Last month, a report submitted by the team negotiating the Rafale deal with France was cleared by the Defence Ministry. The file was then sent to the Prime Minister's Office for review and clearance.

The work on the IGA started after that, sources said.

During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract.

Soon after the announcement, the Defence Ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.






http://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...sed-sources-say/2016/09/14/article3620840.ece

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## Ankit Kumar 002

I thing I can assure every one of is , the first airframe will be delivered only within 36 months from the date , " The first Tranche of Payment " is cleared from India. 

No 20 months delivery time.


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## Ankit Kumar 002

Please stick to the Rafale sticky thread for everything related to Rafale. 

@WAJsal @waz @Oscar @PARIKRAMA 
Please get the needful done.

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## 4GTejasBVR

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> I thing I can assure every one of is , the first airframe will be delivered only within 36 months from the date , " The first Tranche of Payment " is cleared from India.
> 
> No 20 months delivery time.


Actually it should be 18 months not 20


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## punit

soon di maa ki aankh ! jaldi kar bhai.


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## Ankit Kumar 002

4GTejasBVR said:


> Actually it should be 18 months not 20


Will be good if it happens. 

But at present no concrete source on which we can claim so.



punit said:


> soon di maa ki aankh ! jaldi kar bhai.



Expectations.. . 
You may have it from Indian Railways , even with Indian Postal System , even with thieves... 
But not with Indian Defence Procurement. Its SIN.

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## ranjeet

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/776058056505298944

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## egodoc222

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Raf...-IGA-being-finalised/articleshow/54329425.cms

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## BON PLAN

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> I thing I can assure every one of is , the first airframe will be delivered only within 36 months from the date , " The first Tranche of Payment " is cleared from India.
> 
> No 20 months delivery time.


Dassault were able to give 3 Rafale to Egypt 6 months after sugning, and 3 more after 6 other months....

It's possible to do the same with India by taking some french dedicated planes on the line.

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## Abingdonboy

BON PLAN said:


> Dassault were able to give 3 Rafale to Egypt 6 months after sugning, and 3 more after 6 other months....
> 
> It's possible to do the same with India by taking some french dedicated planes on the line.


I'm not expecting this but it would be very exciting if this came to be, it would certainly be a huge boost for Dassualt's image in India (that has taken a hit thanks to competitor propaganda). 


And if one remembers, the PM stated in Paris that these 36 were for the IAF's urgent requirements.

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## R!CK

ranjeet said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/776058056505298944



I fail to understand why they report Meteor purchase as a big surprise? Why don't they also say it comes with 2 engines as well? 



BON PLAN said:


> Dassault were able to give 3 Rafale to Egypt 6 months after sugning, and 3 more after 6 other months....
> 
> It's possible to do the same with India by taking some french dedicated planes on the line.



This was possible because no other export order existed, so only French AF had to make a sacrifice. Right now we got French, Qatar and Egypt. While French may sacrifice further, we cant expect the same from other two customers. While I do expect deliveries before the 36 month standard, 3-6 months could be next to impossible. Another important factor being, Egypt choosing a very basic standard next to French, while Qatar and IAF requesting for more customization. The customized variants might require a slightly longer test regime for the first few aircraft. Anyways happy times ahead.

Good Day all!

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## PARIKRAMA

Looking at the tweets and breaking news over last 2-3 days, I wish most of the mainstream media could have looked into this thread and perhaps asked anyone of us all in a query. There is more information available here than what they believe is big and breaking. .. Everything is pooled here for such long time and yet i feel happy that finally its indicative that this Indian Defence section is a right place for all discussion, news and updates. (among all other peer forums)

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## [Bregs]

PARIKRAMA said:


> Looking at the tweets and breaking news over last 2-3 days, I wish most of the mainstream media could have looked into this thread and perhaps asked anyone of us all in a query. There is more information available here than what they believe is big and breaking. .. Everything is pooled here for such long time and yet i feel happy that finally its indicative that this Indian Defence section is a right place for all discussion, news and updates. (among all other peer forums)



lol true here news is much more in detail and is more credible and convincing technically

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## Ankit Kumar 002

BON PLAN said:


> Dassault were able to give 3 Rafale to Egypt 6 months after sugning, and 3 more after 6 other months....
> 
> It's possible to do the same with India by taking some french dedicated planes on the line.



When we are expecting an increase in MTOW of Indian Airframes , French airframes cannot be turned for IAF. 

Else if specifications are similar, why not. 

Both can not happen simultaneously.

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## ashok321

*New Indo-French Agreement Needed To Finalize Rafale Deal 

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/17...t_Needed_To_Finalize_Rafale_Deal#.V9mB_xCKTIV


*

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## T90TankGuy

*With Rafale, A Game-Changer Missile That Puts India Ahead Of China*
*




*

*As India and France get set to sign a Euro 7.87 billion contact for 36 French Rafale fighters, details are emerging on a previously undisclosed part of the deal, which will see India acquiring the Meteor, arguably the world's most advanced air-to-air missile.

Sources tracking the final negotiations have confirmed to NDTV that the IAF's Rafales will come equipped with the Meteor designed to knock out enemy aircraft and cruise missiles significantly more than 100 km away.

The acquisition of this weapon is likely to be game changer in South Asia. Neither Pakistan nor China, India's traditional military adversaries, possess a weapon of the same class. 

The only other air-to-air missile as capable as the Meteor is the AIM-120D, the latest variant of the US Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile which is also designed to hit targets more than 100 km away.

Analysts, however, point out that the Meteor is likely to be significantly more capable 
because of its ramjet engine.

According to War is Boring, a leading international website that explores high technology weapons systems, "A conventional solid-fuel booster accelerates the Meteor after launch, like most air-to-air missiles. But while roaring through the air, the missile opens up a chute, allowing air to rush into the engine, which heats up the oxygen and propels the supersonic missile to Mach 4 (four times the speed of sound)." 


Engineers from the European firm MBDA, which builds the missile, have reportedly claimed that the Meteor has a "no escape zone" three times larger than that of the AIM 120D AMRAAM missile. 

According to War is Boring, "the no-escape zone is an aerial combat term for a cone-shaped area determined by the missile's capabilities -- from where a targeted aircraft cannot escape solely using its own manoeuverability." 

To survive the no escape zone, a fighter jet has to be able to jam the seeker of the incoming missile or deceive it by firing chaff, strips of metal foil released in the air to obstruct radar detection.

At the moment, India and France are finalising details of the Inter-governmental agreement on India's acquisition of the Rafale. A French team, currently in Delhi, is reviewing the contract which runs into several thousand pages. 

Once this document is firmed up, the file goes back to the Cabinet Committee on Security for final approval, which, at this stage, is likely to be a formality.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would be acquiring 36 Rafale fighter jets from France in an off-the-shelf purchase when he visited France in April last year. Deliveries of the fighter are likely to begin in 2019. Sharp differences between Indian and French price negotiators meant that neither side was able to achieve a breakthrough till now.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/with...na-exclusive-1458726?pfrom=home-lateststories*

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## T90TankGuy

Guys sorry for the bold text


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## wiseone2

jbgt90 said:


> *With Rafale, A Game-Changer Missile That Puts India Ahead Of China*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> *As India and France get set to sign a Euro 7.87 billion contact for 36 French Rafale fighters, details are emerging on a previously undisclosed part of the deal, which will see India acquiring the Meteor, arguably the world's most advanced air-to-air missile.*
> 
> *Sources tracking the final negotiations have confirmed to NDTV that the IAF's Rafales will come equipped with the Meteor designed to knock out enemy aircraft and cruise missiles significantly more than 100 km away.*
> 
> *The acquisition of this weapon is likely to be game changer in South Asia. Neither Pakistan nor China, India's traditional military adversaries, possess a weapon of the same class. *
> 
> *The only other air-to-air missile as capable as the Meteor is the AIM-120D, the latest variant of the US Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile which is also designed to hit targets more than 100 km away.*
> 
> *Analysts, however, point out that the Meteor is likely to be significantly more capable *
> *because of its ramjet engine.*
> 
> *According to War is Boring, a leading international website that explores high technology weapons systems, "A conventional solid-fuel booster accelerates the Meteor after launch, like most air-to-air missiles. But while roaring through the air, the missile opens up a chute, allowing air to rush into the engine, which heats up the oxygen and propels the supersonic missile to Mach 4 (four times the speed of sound)." *
> 
> 
> *Engineers from the European firm MBDA, which builds the missile, have reportedly claimed that the Meteor has a "no escape zone" three times larger than that of the AIM 120D AMRAAM missile. *
> 
> *According to War is Boring, "the no-escape zone is an aerial combat term for a cone-shaped area determined by the missile's capabilities -- from where a targeted aircraft cannot escape solely using its own manoeuverability." *
> 
> *To survive the no escape zone, a fighter jet has to be able to jam the seeker of the incoming missile or deceive it by firing chaff, strips of metal foil released in the air to obstruct radar detection.*
> 
> *At the moment, India and France are finalising details of the Inter-governmental agreement on India's acquisition of the Rafale. A French team, currently in Delhi, is reviewing the contract which runs into several thousand pages. *
> 
> *Once this document is firmed up, the file goes back to the Cabinet Committee on Security for final approval, which, at this stage, is likely to be a formality.*
> 
> *Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would be acquiring 36 Rafale fighter jets from France in an off-the-shelf purchase when he visited France in April last year. Deliveries of the fighter are likely to begin in 2019. Sharp differences between Indian and French price negotiators meant that neither side was able to achieve a breakthrough till now.*
> 
> *http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/with...na-exclusive-1458726?pfrom=home-lateststories*


the meteor missile is a deadly weapon

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## T90TankGuy

wiseone2 said:


> the meteor missile is a deadly weapon


I really wish they would just sign o the dotted line, some times price should not be a consideration but security and modernisation should be a priority .


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## Kinetic

Meteor is truly a game changer missing.

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## Hamoon

wiseone2 said:


> the meteor missile is a deadly weapon


Especially when India going to have it. Still the best BVR missile in this world is AM-120.


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## wiseone2

Hamoon said:


> Especially when India going to have it. Still the best BVR missile in this world is AM-120.


it is not a given India will acquire it


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## T90TankGuy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Sir,
> Can you please delete the thread here and instead post it in sticky. It would help to collate all data at one place.


Dont think i can do that , but maybe @waz or @WAJsal can you guys do it please.?


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## Hamoon

wiseone2 said:


> it is not a given India will acquire it


Deal confirmed or just speculations like 6 or 7 years back, every week Indian members jumps on online forum with some news related to the deal.


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## wiseone2

Hamoon said:


> Deal confirmed or just speculations like 6 or 7 years back, every week Indian members jumps on online forum with some news related to the deal.


IAF would love to acquire. it is not clear the Europeans would sell


----------



## PARIKRAMA

Credit to @jbgt90 

With Rafale, A Game-Changer Missile That Puts India Ahead Of China






As India and France get set to sign a Euro 7.87 billion contact for 36 French Rafale fighters, details are emerging on a previously undisclosed part of the deal, which will see India acquiring the Meteor, arguably the world's most advanced air-to-air missile.

Sources tracking the final negotiations have confirmed to NDTV that the IAF's Rafales will come equipped with the Meteor designed to knock out enemy aircraft and cruise missiles significantly more than 100 km away.

The acquisition of this weapon is likely to be game changer in South Asia. Neither Pakistan nor China, India's traditional military adversaries, possess a weapon of the same class. 

The only other air-to-air missile as capable as the Meteor is the AIM-120D, the latest variant of the US Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile which is also designed to hit targets more than 100 km away.

Analysts, however, point out that the Meteor is likely to be significantly more capable 
because of its ramjet engine.

According to War is Boring, a leading international website that explores high technology weapons systems, "A conventional solid-fuel booster accelerates the Meteor after launch, like most air-to-air missiles. But while roaring through the air, the missile opens up a chute, allowing air to rush into the engine, which heats up the oxygen and propels the supersonic missile to Mach 4 (four times the speed of sound)." 


Engineers from the European firm MBDA, which builds the missile, have reportedly claimed that the Meteor has a "no escape zone" three times larger than that of the AIM 120D AMRAAM missile. 

According to War is Boring, "the no-escape zone is an aerial combat term for a cone-shaped area determined by the missile's capabilities -- from where a targeted aircraft cannot escape solely using its own manoeuverability." 

To survive the no escape zone, a fighter jet has to be able to jam the seeker of the incoming missile or deceive it by firing chaff, strips of metal foil released in the air to obstruct radar detection.

At the moment, India and France are finalising details of the Inter-governmental agreement on India's acquisition of the Rafale. A French team, currently in Delhi, is reviewing the contract which runs into several thousand pages. 

Once this document is firmed up, the file goes back to the Cabinet Committee on Security for final approval, which, at this stage, is likely to be a formality.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would be acquiring 36 Rafale fighter jets from France in an off-the-shelf purchase when he visited France in April last year. Deliveries of the fighter are likely to begin in 2019. Sharp differences between Indian and French price negotiators meant that neither side was able to achieve a breakthrough till now.

*http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/with...na-exclusive-1458726?pfrom=home-lateststories*

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## Ali Zadi

That missile has a very good "No Escape Zone" thats the biggest feature of this missile over any other. Also the range of this thing has not been officially listed, Most say 100+ while others say 150-160km.

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## PARIKRAMA

*French Airshow* ‏@FrenchAirshowTV  37m37 minutes ago
Meeting Aerien Roanne 2016

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## kaykay

Ali Zadi said:


> That missile has a very good "No Escape Zone" thats the biggest feature of this missile over any other. Also the range of this thing has not been officially listed, Most say 100+ while others say 150-160km.


Very true. Also just to inform that new Derby-ER( Tejas will use it) is excellent too...with its second kick capability, It has no escape zone of 80% of that of Meteor with one third of its cost....

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## PARIKRAMA

What i said about Meteor






https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-297#post-8544956

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## Abingdonboy

kaykay said:


> Very true. Also just to inform that new Derby-ER( Tejas will use it) is excellent too...with its second kick capability, It has no escape zone of 80% of that of Meteor with one third of its cost....





PARIKRAMA said:


> What i said about Meteor
> 
> View attachment 334341
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-297#post-8544956


Any indication which BVRAAM will be part of the Super MKI upgrade, METEOR or DERBY-ER?

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> Any indication which BVRAAM will be part of the Super MKI upgrade, METEOR or DERBY-ER?


R 37

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> Any indication which BVRAAM will be part of the Super MKI upgrade, METEOR or DERBY-ER?


Officially first choice is R37 from PAKFA stable. But there is a ULBVR AAM which will be inked soon. The indications are its Meteor as a Request was made to understand such a customization cost. Derby ER will be restricted to the fleet sporting either an Israeli radar or compatible US radars in case so called LWF gets selected (Derby + Derby ER +Python 5 in F16s)

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Officially first choice is R37 from PAKFA stable. But there is a ULBVR AAM which will be inked soon. The indications are its Meteor as a Request was made to understand such a customization cost. Derby ER will be restricted to the fleet sporting either an Israeli radar or compatible US radars in case so called LWF gets selected (Derby + Derby ER +Python 5 in F16s)


I assume the Derby-ER would be compatible with the DRDO's AESA radars?

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> I assume the Derby-ER would be compatible with the DRDO's AESA radars?


Normally israeli will give you specifications of interface of the missile and DRDO will make the AESA compatible with it. Same for Russian missile and French one.
The problem is only when you cannot modify the software of the radar. And the real interface is not with the Radar, but with the weapon system if you want to be able to fire on whatever track you have and not only on radar ones.

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## Zarvan

*by Vishnu Som
IAF's Rafales will come equipped with Meteor, arguably the world's most advanced air-to-air missile.*
New Delhi: As India and France get set to sign a Euro 7.87 billion contact for 36 French Rafale fighters, details are emerging on a previously undisclosed part of the deal, which will see India acquiring the Meteor, arguably the world's most advanced air-to-air missile.

Sources tracking the final negotiations have confirmed to NDTV that the IAF's Rafales will come equipped with the Meteor designed to knock out enemy aircraft and cruise missiles significantly more than 100 km away.

The acquisition of this weapon is likely to be game changer in South Asia. Neither Pakistan nor China, India's traditional military adversaries, possess a weapon of the same class.

The only other air-to-air missile as capable as the Meteor is the AIM-120D, the latest variant of the US Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile which is also designed to hit targets more than 100 km away.
Analysts, however, point out that the Meteor is likely to be significantly more capable because of its ramjet engine.

According to War is Boring, a leading international website that explores high technology weapons systems, "A conventional solid-fuel booster accelerates the Meteor after launch, like most air-to-air missiles. But while roaring through the air, the missile opens up a chute, allowing air to rush into the engine, which heats up the oxygen and propels the supersonic missile to Mach 4 (four times the speed of sound)."





*A Rafale fighter firing a Meteor Missile
*
Engineers from the European firm MBDA, which builds the missile, have reportedly claimed that the Meteor has a "no escape zone" three times larger than that of the AIM 120D AMRAAM missile.

According to War is Boring, "the no-escape zone is an aerial combat term for a cone-shaped area determined by the missile's capabilities -- from where a targeted aircraft cannot escape solely using its own maneuverability."

To survive the no escape zone, a fighter jet has to be able to jam the seeker of the incoming missile or deceive it by firing chaff, strips of metal foil released in the air to obstruct radar detection.

At the moment, India and France are finalizing details of the Inter-governmental agreement on India's acquisition of the Rafale. A French team, currently in Delhi, is reviewing the contract which runs into several thousand pages.

Once this document is firmed up, the file goes back to the Cabinet Committee on Security for final approval, which, at this stage, is likely to be a formality.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would be acquiring 36 Rafale fighter jets from France in an off-the-shelf purchase when he visited France in April last year. Deliveries of the fighter are likely to begin in 2019. Sharp differences between Indian and French price negotiators meant that neither side was able to achieve a breakthrough till now.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/with...t-puts-india-ahead-of-china-exclusive-1458726

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## Abingdonboy

Kinetic said:


> Rafale + Meteor is India's reply to JF-17 + SD-10.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India also has similar missile project but Meteor is most advanced AAM in service now.


India doesn't need the Rafale to counter anything the PAF has. The 300+ MKIs, 100 upgraded MiG-29/Mirage 2000 and 200 odd LCA are more than enough. 

The Rafale will be a game changer where China is concerned , it's ability to strike deep into hostile territory and all round performance will release The IAF's other high performance assets to prosecute other targets.

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## ejaz007

*India Coaxes France Into Selling its Air-to-Air Missile Equipped Rafale*

*Some procedural work could take little more time for signing of 36 Rafale deal between India and France*

New Delhi (Sputnik) — India and France are still working on preparing a fresh Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) for 36 Rafale combat aircraft. Sources told Sputnik that following negotiations, officials from both countries are finalizing documents which will be placed before Cabinet Committee of Security, India’s topmost approving authority, for final approval. © FLICKR/ ALEXANDER BABASHOV India's Deal for 36 Dassault Rafale Stealth Fighter Jets Reaches Final Phase However, it is not clear that whether the IGA requires fresh approval from the Law Ministry or not. The Ministry of Law & Justice had made certain observations regarding the arbitration and liability clause in case of breach of contract. Sources told Sputnik that the Rafale would be equipped with Meteor beyond-visual range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM). Meteor is seen as the most lethal radar guided air-to-air missile in operational service in the world. It is claimed that its dual rocket and ramjet propulsion system continues to provide power and acceleration even at its maximum range. During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract. Soon after the announcement, the defense ministry scrapped a separate process that to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defense giant Dassault Aviati

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/20160915/1045325989/india-rafale-missile.html

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## dadeechi

IAF's Rafales will come equipped with Meteor, arguably the world's most advanced air-to-air missile.

New Delhi: As India and France get set to sign a Euro 7.87 billion contact for 36 French Rafale fighters, details are emerging on a previously undisclosed part of the deal, which will see India acquiring the Meteor, arguably the world's most advanced air-to-air missile.

Sources tracking the final negotiations have confirmed to NDTV that the IAF's Rafales will come equipped with the Meteor designed to knock out enemy aircraft and cruise missiles significantly more than 100 km away.


The acquisition of this weapon is likely to be game changer in South Asia. Neither Pakistan nor China, India's traditional military adversaries, possess a weapon of the same class.

The only other air-to-air missile as capable as the Meteor is the AIM-120D, the latest variant of the US Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile which is also designed to hit targets more than 100 km away.

Analysts, however, point out that the Meteor is likely to be significantly more capable because of its ramjet engine.

According to War is Boring, a leading international website that explores high technology weapons systems, "A conventional solid-fuel booster accelerates the Meteor after launch, like most air-to-air missiles. But while roaring through the air, the missile opens up a chute, allowing air to rush into the engine, which heats up the oxygen and propels the supersonic missile to Mach 4 (four times the speed of sound)."

Engineers from the European firm MBDA, which builds the missile, have reportedly claimed that the Meteor has a "no escape zone" three times larger than that of the AIM 120D AMRAAM missile.

According to War is Boring, "the no-escape zone is an aerial combat term for a cone-shaped area determined by the missile's capabilities -- from where a targeted aircraft cannot escape solely using its own maneuverability."

To survive the no escape zone, a fighter jet has to be able to jam the seeker of the incoming missile or deceive it by firing chaff, strips of metal foil released in the air to obstruct radar detection.

At the moment, India and France are finalizing details of the Inter-governmental agreement on India's acquisition of the Rafale. A French team, currently in Delhi, is reviewing the contract which runs into several thousand pages.

Once this document is firmed up, the file goes back to the Cabinet Committee on Security for final approval, which, at this stage, is likely to be a formality.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would be acquiring 36 Rafale fighter jets from France in an off-the-shelf purchase when he visited France in April last year. Deliveries of the fighter are likely to begin in 2019. Sharp differences between Indian and French price negotiators meant that neither side was able to achieve a breakthrough till now.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Source based news with rough numbers of the package 

Part 1*

Basic Aircraft package ~ Euro 2.7 Bn
Financial package comprising of Cost escalation + milestone payments + other conditions ~Euro 0.5Bn
Weapon package cost~ Euro 0.70 Bn includes meteors, scalp and mica +others
Engineering Support package + Basic infrastructure support package for operations ~Euro 1.8 Bn
Customization package including high altitude performance package, hot weather performance package, Indian weapons, required thrust, India specific Training, Simulators for local language, etc etc ~Euro 1.8Bn
Logistics support package for high performance availability and spares ~ Euro 0.35 Bn
*Part 2*

It is expected some of these sub portions may be combined in case media is briefed about the package details or realigned to showcase some sub sections under different heads.
There is a guideline to play down availability rate and in all probability will be revealed at 75% but sperate logistics support for high performance is a way to ensure its 90%
The high-altitude performance package involves specific engine setup conditions as well as payload conditions defined under
SEAD, DEAD, low altitude missions
Weapon package and payload being very specific
Intensive AD environment and other warfare aspects
Defined under TAR (Tibet Autonomous Region) and Leh/Ladakh, J&K, and Gilgit, P-OK region

The hot weather conditions includes 
extreme temperature performance under operations in Desert environment 
continuous sand particles based issues 
for standard SEAD, DEAD, low altitude ingress
Strict guidelines to ensure no system or engine failure or performance issues.

There is a serious consideration for corrosion effect owing to extreme weather seen across the year and country bases.and emphasis is to ensure none of this compromises the mission goals and compromises package delivery aspects.

Hope this helps. This is the best i could muster. 

@Abingdonboy @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @anant_s @MilSpec @SpArK @nair @AUSTERLITZ @Ankit Kumar 002 @hellfire @Armani @randomradio @GuardianRED @R!CK @kaykay @[Bregs] @Joe Shearer @jbgt90 @others.

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## nair

PARIKRAMA said:


> There is a *guideline to play down availability rate and in all probability will be revealed at 75%* but sperate logistics support for high performance is a way to ensure its 90



For what?

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## PARIKRAMA

nair said:


> For what?


Ambiguity for doctrine and aircraft identified for strategic payloads. 
Higher availability rate will showcase they are for strategic package and then our media may cover and compromise their locations. Such bases would be under constant monitoring and will deemed HV targets in the event of any conflict beyond the usual crippling of operations aspect.

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## nair

PARIKRAMA said:


> Higher availability rate will showcase they are for strategic package


Media is not that stupid, and what ever availability rates, they know the reason why we opt for it and what role it need to pay..... Instead by showing lower availability rate they might attract another CAG report and will have to face the same media's trial .....

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## Hellfire

@nair @PARIKRAMA

Ignore availability issue. Reserves are built for that. For a certain number of days of intensive war. It is akin to the Su-30 issue, it was a laugh when the claims were being made in public of servicibility. For war, the issue is different.

Again, example of IL-76. Not more than 2 or 3 are flying at a time. But for projection 7 were flown to Leh simultaneously in 1 wave in 2012. And supposedly we dont have spares for that either. Or for Mi-26. Too many AOGs

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## nair

hellfire said:


> @nair @PARIKRAMA
> 
> Ignore availability issue. Reserves are built for that. For a certain number of days of intensive war. It is akin to the Su-30 issue, it was a laugh when the claims were being made in public of servicibility. For war, the issue is different.
> 
> Again, example of IL-76. Not more than 2 or 3 are flying at a time. But for projection 7 were flown to Leh simultaneously in 1 wave in 2012. And supposedly we dont have spares for that either. Or for Mi-26. Too many AOGs



I would have ignored it, But i was interested to know the reason behind the attempt to show a lower availability rate deliberately......

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## randomradio

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-125#post-8156148

Courtesy Picdel

It's Euro 2.5B for 36 Rafales.
Euro 1B for 10 years spares.
Euro 1.4B for 1 base.
Euro 1B for weapons.

Total = Euro 5.9B for MMRCA configured Rafale.

Customization costs up to Euro 2B. So total is Euro 7.9B. Total 9.3B for two bases. And so on.

It's an estimate.

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## BON PLAN

R!CK said:


> I fail to understand why they report Meteor purchase as a big surprise? Why don't they also say it comes with 2 engines as well?
> 
> 
> 
> This was possible because no other export order existed, so only French AF had to make a sacrifice. Right now we got French, Qatar and Egypt. While French may sacrifice further, we cant expect the same from other two customers. While I do expect deliveries before the 36 month standard, 3-6 months could be next to impossible. Another important factor being, Egypt choosing a very basic standard next to French, while Qatar and IAF requesting for more customization. The customized variants might require a slightly longer test regime for the first few aircraft. Anyways happy times ahead.
> 
> Good Day all!


Right ! 
But Dassault always has nearly 30 fighters for France in the backlog (before a last and final 5° batch).... I think it will be possible to take 3 to 6 planes for training issue in India. Even in a french standard (for the beginning).

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## [Bregs]

The French have offered to fine tune and upgrade the Kaveri engine for 1 billion euro or dollar, will that be done from offset clause money or new deal will be signed ? or else it would be done when further deal for MII is signed

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## Hellfire

nair said:


> I would have ignored it, But i was interested to know the reason behind the attempt to show a lower availability rate deliberately......




Brain fart. Much like the supposed 'coup' intent against previous givernment

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## Spectre

randomradio said:


> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-125#post-8156148
> 
> Courtesy Picdel
> 
> It's Euro 2.5B for 36 Rafales.
> Euro 1B for 10 years spares.
> Euro 1.4B for 1 base.
> Euro 1B for weapons.
> 
> Total = Euro 5.9B for MMRCA configured Rafale.
> 
> Customization costs up to Euro 2B. So total is Euro 7.9B. Total 9.3B for two bases. And so on.
> 
> It's an estimate.



Why is customization so expensive? We would be anyway paying out of our pocket for the additional hardware. Me thinks it is matter of minor adjustments but then I am not the sharpest cookie in town

1.4 B for 1 base? What are the details of the base? Just hardened concrete along with workshop? Spares are extra anyway

@PARIKRAMA?


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## Perpendicular

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/776412489571405824

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## BON PLAN

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> When we are expecting an increase in MTOW of Indian Airframes , French airframes cannot be turned for IAF.
> 
> Else if specifications are similar, why not.
> 
> Both can not happen simultaneously.


Maybe French AF can lease some new Rafale B (in a french definition) , just to begin the training phase in India, the time the first Indian planes are produced.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Spectre said:


> Why is customization so expensive? We would be anyway paying out of our pocket for the additional hardware. Me thinks it is matter of minor adjustments but then I am not the sharpest cookie in town
> 
> 1.4 B for 1 base? What are the details of the base? Just hardened concrete along with workshop? Spares are extra anyway
> 
> @PARIKRAMA?


Base will be equipped with simulator,Trainig system Maintenance management system (like ALIS for the F-35) etc.
Customisation include New M-88 and the integration and fly test of russian and Indian weapons plus an HMDS and perhaps CFT.

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## BON PLAN

Spectre said:


> Why is customization so expensive? We would be anyway paying out of our pocket for the additional hardware. Me thinks it is matter of minor adjustments but then I am not the sharpest cookie in town
> 
> 1.4 B for 1 base? What are the details of the base? Just hardened concrete along with workshop? Spares are extra anyway
> 
> @PARIKRAMA?


India want to integrate Astra, maybe a new and lighter variant of your supersonic cruise missile Brahmos, new bombs, a new targeting pod, a new helmet, a satcom. Maybe some other new items.

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## Spectre

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Base will be equipped with simulator,Trainig system Maintenance management system (like ALIS for the F-35) etc.
> Customisation include New M-88 and the integration and fly test of russian and Indian weapons plus an HMDS and perhaps CFT.



Doesn't make sense for 36 jets.. Not one bit. 

These are one time expenses AFAIK would be much better to spread out the cost over larger order.

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## randomradio

Spectre said:


> Why is customization so expensive? We would be anyway paying out of our pocket for the additional hardware. Me thinks it is matter of minor adjustments but then I am not the sharpest cookie in town



Integration is expensive on the Rafale because every time you add something you have to take it to the anechoic chamber for RCS tests. And stuff likes pods and weapons have to be tested in multiple configurations.

And this customization cost would be spread out over many years as equipment becomes available, like the Astra or a new surveillance pod and so on.

I won't be surprised if they build one or two new prototypes if necessary.

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## Spectre

BON PLAN said:


> satcom



Delicious. Rest are perfunctory.

If India wants it's own custom weapons loadout then why spend so much on weapons package

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## randomradio

Spectre said:


> Doesn't make sense for 36 jets.. Not one bit.
> 
> These are one time expenses AFAIK would be much better to spread out the cost over larger order.



These are one time expenses of course. And a larger order of 90 jets is pending. We should eventually be operating 200 Rafales between the IAF and IN.

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## PARIKRAMA

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indi...9175?type=news&id=1459175&category=india-news

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## Spectre

randomradio said:


> Integration is expensive on the Rafale because every time you add something you have to take it to the anechoic chamber for RCS tests. And stuff likes pods and weapons have to be tested in multiple configurations.
> 
> And this customization cost would be spread out over many years as equipment becomes available, like the Astra or a new surveillance pod and so on.
> 
> I won't be surprised if they build one or two new prototypes if necessary.



Too early to say, most the Indian weapons are in development. Doesn't make sense as I earlier said for 36 jets. Now if the order was increased then the costs would be justified.



randomradio said:


> These are one time expenses of course. And a larger order of 90 jets is pending. We should eventually be operating 200 Rafales between the IAF and IN.



Bhai. The new order is speculation as of now. What if it doesn't materialize. Then all the money for customization and bases would be wasted on just 36 jets right?

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## Picdelamirand-oil

My estimate of January 2016
http://indiandefence.com/threads/mrca-updates-and-discussions.22159/page-997#post-484089

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## Abingdonboy

Spectre said:


> Bhai. The new order is speculation as of now. What if it doesn't materialize. Then all the money for customization and bases would be wasted on just 36 jets right?


The 36 jet deal will only ever lead to more, if more weren't coming this highly expensive (for good reason) deal for 36 off the shelf would never be signed. As you have pointed out, such high costs are not warranted for such a limited number of units which implies just one thing.....


There is clearly a lot going on behind the scenes that we cannot help but speculate about. I know you are reluctant to accept the follow on order for MII jets is coming but all signs are pointing to this sir.


PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 334619
> 
> 
> http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indi...9175?type=news&id=1459175&category=india-news


I'm surprised Mr Hollande doesn't want to take the publicity for himself and isn't making the trip over to India personally especially in an election year. @Taygibay @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> My estimate of January 2016
> http://indiandefence.com/threads/mrca-updates-and-discussions.22159/page-997#post-484089


Uncanny, you were dead on!

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## randomradio

Spectre said:


> Bhai. The new order is speculation as of now. What if it doesn't materialize. Then all the money for customization and bases would be wasted on just 36 jets right?



It's happening. The 90 jets MII And possibly 36 jets for the IN also once everything is ready. Apart from that 18 more naval jets will come in from France.

Totally, IAF wants 126 Rafales in the short term and IN wants 54 jets.

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## [Bregs]

36+18 follow on are sure and even this number is not economical for such a costly aircraft if there is not a make in india proposal to manufacture 72+36 for naval version of Rafale

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm surprised Mr Hollande doesn't want to take the publicity for himself and isn't making the trip over to India personally especially in an election year.



I don't know if Hollande will come but it is possible. I think they emphasis on Le Drian because he will be in Oman and Qatar from 17th to 20th of september and it is likely the strongest constraint to fix a date of signature.

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## Indrajit

randomradio said:


> It's happening. The 90 jets MII And possibly 36 jets for the IN also once everything is ready. Apart from that 18 naval more jets will come in from France.
> 
> Totally, IAF wants 126 Rafales in the short term and IN wants 54 jets.




.....and the cost of the above is......?


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## randomradio

Indrajit said:


> .....and the cost of the above is......?



We don't know that. They will try to make it cheaper than what we are getting right now.

Second and third contracts are always cheaper for the same hardware. IN contract will obviously be more expensive.

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## [Bregs]

*Rafale deal to be signed on September 23*

The much-anticipated contract for 36 Rafale fighter jets will be signed on September 23 as both India and France have finalized the details for the deal, which will cost about Euro 7.87 billion.





There was buzz that the Scorpene leak might affect the Rafale deal, but Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had assured that the leaked documents are not of concern.​
The much-anticipated contract for 36 Rafale fighter jets will be signed on September 23 as both India and France have finalized the details for the deal, which will cost about Euro 7.87 billion.

There was buzz that the Scorpene leak might affect the Rafale deal, but Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had assured that the leaked documents are not of concern.

Government sources said the cost, offsets and service details have been finalized and the work is being done on the Inter-Governmental Agreement for the deal.

A “working team” from France is already in town with their own translators and are going through the contract, running into several thousand pages, with their Indian counterparts.

The sources said that once the IGA is firmed up, the document will go back to the Cabinet Committee on Security for a final clearance.

They said that India has been able to save over Euro 590 million+ through tough price negotiations which began in January this year.

Though the deal could have been firmed up earlier, issues like pricing and offsets took time as India wanted a better contract.

Following intervention by Prime Minister Modi late last year, France agreed for a 50 per cent offset clause. This means creating business worth at least three billion Euros for Indian companies, both big and small, and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets.

A high-level delegation from France could come down for the formal signing of the contract, French sources said.

The delivery for the fighter aircraft is expected to begin in 2019, with an annual inflation capped at 3.5 per cent.

The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile ‘Meteor’, and Israeli helmet mounted display.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/rafale-deal-to-be-signed-on-september-23/

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## PARIKRAMA

Invitations are given out as i said earlier. From French Side Le Drian will be here but PM Modi has personally invited Prez Hollande. Its still some days away, so we might get his confirmation based on schedule and availability. Who knows if this Monday approval was postponed to accommodate this date itself bcz of availability..

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## Fireurimagination

I'm gonna have a hell of a party on September 23rd then and if this time they postpone then

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## Vergennes

Perpendicular said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/776412489571405824





PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 334619
> 
> 
> http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indi...9175?type=news&id=1459175&category=india-news





Fireurimagination said:


> I'm gonna have a hell of a party on September 23rd then and if this time they postpone then





[Bregs] said:


> *Rafale deal to be signed on September 23*
> 
> The much-anticipated contract for 36 Rafale fighter jets will be signed on September 23 as both India and France have finalized the details for the deal, which will cost about Euro 7.87 billion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There was buzz that the Scorpene leak might affect the Rafale deal, but Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had assured that the leaked documents are not of concern.​
> The much-anticipated contract for 36 Rafale fighter jets will be signed on September 23 as both India and France have finalized the details for the deal, which will cost about Euro 7.87 billion.
> 
> There was buzz that the Scorpene leak might affect the Rafale deal, but Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had assured that the leaked documents are not of concern.
> 
> Government sources said the cost, offsets and service details have been finalized and the work is being done on the Inter-Governmental Agreement for the deal.
> 
> A “working team” from France is already in town with their own translators and are going through the contract, running into several thousand pages, with their Indian counterparts.
> 
> The sources said that once the IGA is firmed up, the document will go back to the Cabinet Committee on Security for a final clearance.
> 
> They said that India has been able to save over Euro 590 million+ through tough price negotiations which began in January this year.
> 
> Though the deal could have been firmed up earlier, issues like pricing and offsets took time as India wanted a better contract.
> 
> Following intervention by Prime Minister Modi late last year, France agreed for a 50 per cent offset clause. This means creating business worth at least three billion Euros for Indian companies, both big and small, and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets.
> 
> A high-level delegation from France could come down for the formal signing of the contract, French sources said.
> 
> The delivery for the fighter aircraft is expected to begin in 2019, with an annual inflation capped at 3.5 per cent.
> 
> The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile ‘Meteor’, and Israeli helmet mounted display.
> 
> http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/rafale-deal-to-be-signed-on-september-23/




I've been waiting so long to post this ;





-
@Abingdonboy I doubt he would miss the signature,and would make some publicity of it,to show his "achievements". 
(Bringing money,maintaining/creating jobs things like that.... not forgeting the renown of our industries.)

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## Abingdonboy

Zarvan said:


> *by Vishnu Som
> IAF's Rafales will come equipped with Meteor, arguably the world's most advanced air-to-air missile.*
> New Delhi: As India and France get set to sign a Euro 7.87 billion contact for 36 French Rafale fighters, details are emerging on a previously undisclosed part of the deal, which will see India acquiring the Meteor, arguably the world's most advanced air-to-air missile.
> 
> Sources tracking the final negotiations have confirmed to NDTV that the IAF's Rafales will come equipped with the Meteor designed to knock out enemy aircraft and cruise missiles significantly more than 100 km away.
> 
> The acquisition of this weapon is likely to be game changer in South Asia. Neither Pakistan nor China, India's traditional military adversaries, possess a weapon of the same class.
> 
> The only other air-to-air missile as capable as the Meteor is the AIM-120D, the latest variant of the US Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile which is also designed to hit targets more than 100 km away.
> Analysts, however, point out that the Meteor is likely to be significantly more capable because of its ramjet engine.
> 
> According to War is Boring, a leading international website that explores high technology weapons systems, "A conventional solid-fuel booster accelerates the Meteor after launch, like most air-to-air missiles. But while roaring through the air, the missile opens up a chute, allowing air to rush into the engine, which heats up the oxygen and propels the supersonic missile to Mach 4 (four times the speed of sound)."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *A Rafale fighter firing a Meteor Missile
> *
> Engineers from the European firm MBDA, which builds the missile, have reportedly claimed that the Meteor has a "no escape zone" three times larger than that of the AIM 120D AMRAAM missile.
> 
> According to War is Boring, "the no-escape zone is an aerial combat term for a cone-shaped area determined by the missile's capabilities -- from where a targeted aircraft cannot escape solely using its own maneuverability."
> 
> To survive the no escape zone, a fighter jet has to be able to jam the seeker of the incoming missile or deceive it by firing chaff, strips of metal foil released in the air to obstruct radar detection.
> 
> At the moment, India and France are finalizing details of the Inter-governmental agreement on India's acquisition of the Rafale. A French team, currently in Delhi, is reviewing the contract which runs into several thousand pages.
> 
> Once this document is firmed up, the file goes back to the Cabinet Committee on Security for final approval, which, at this stage, is likely to be a formality.
> 
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would be acquiring 36 Rafale fighter jets from France in an off-the-shelf purchase when he visited France in April last year. Deliveries of the fighter are likely to begin in 2019. Sharp differences between Indian and French price negotiators meant that neither side was able to achieve a breakthrough till now.
> 
> http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/with...t-puts-india-ahead-of-china-exclusive-1458726





ejaz007 said:


> *India Coaxes France Into Selling its Air-to-Air Missile Equipped Rafale*
> 
> *Some procedural work could take little more time for signing of 36 Rafale deal between India and France*
> 
> New Delhi (Sputnik) — India and France are still working on preparing a fresh Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) for 36 Rafale combat aircraft. Sources told Sputnik that following negotiations, officials from both countries are finalizing documents which will be placed before Cabinet Committee of Security, India’s topmost approving authority, for final approval. © FLICKR/ ALEXANDER BABASHOV India's Deal for 36 Dassault Rafale Stealth Fighter Jets Reaches Final Phase However, it is not clear that whether the IGA requires fresh approval from the Law Ministry or not. The Ministry of Law & Justice had made certain observations regarding the arbitration and liability clause in case of breach of contract. Sources told Sputnik that the Rafale would be equipped with Meteor beyond-visual range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM). Meteor is seen as the most lethal radar guided air-to-air missile in operational service in the world. It is claimed that its dual rocket and ramjet propulsion system continues to provide power and acceleration even at its maximum range. During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract. Soon after the announcement, the defense ministry scrapped a separate process that to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defense giant Dassault Aviati
> 
> Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/20160915/1045325989/india-rafale-missile.html





dadeechi said:


> IAF's Rafales will come equipped with Meteor, arguably the world's most advanced air-to-air missile.
> 
> New Delhi: As India and France get set to sign a Euro 7.87 billion contact for 36 French Rafale fighters, details are emerging on a previously undisclosed part of the deal, which will see India acquiring the Meteor, arguably the world's most advanced air-to-air missile.
> 
> Sources tracking the final negotiations have confirmed to NDTV that the IAF's Rafales will come equipped with the Meteor designed to knock out enemy aircraft and cruise missiles significantly more than 100 km away.
> 
> 
> The acquisition of this weapon is likely to be game changer in South Asia. Neither Pakistan nor China, India's traditional military adversaries, possess a weapon of the same class.
> 
> The only other air-to-air missile as capable as the Meteor is the AIM-120D, the latest variant of the US Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile which is also designed to hit targets more than 100 km away.
> 
> Analysts, however, point out that the Meteor is likely to be significantly more capable because of its ramjet engine.
> 
> According to War is Boring, a leading international website that explores high technology weapons systems, "A conventional solid-fuel booster accelerates the Meteor after launch, like most air-to-air missiles. But while roaring through the air, the missile opens up a chute, allowing air to rush into the engine, which heats up the oxygen and propels the supersonic missile to Mach 4 (four times the speed of sound)."
> 
> Engineers from the European firm MBDA, which builds the missile, have reportedly claimed that the Meteor has a "no escape zone" three times larger than that of the AIM 120D AMRAAM missile.
> 
> According to War is Boring, "the no-escape zone is an aerial combat term for a cone-shaped area determined by the missile's capabilities -- from where a targeted aircraft cannot escape solely using its own maneuverability."
> 
> To survive the no escape zone, a fighter jet has to be able to jam the seeker of the incoming missile or deceive it by firing chaff, strips of metal foil released in the air to obstruct radar detection.
> 
> At the moment, India and France are finalizing details of the Inter-governmental agreement on India's acquisition of the Rafale. A French team, currently in Delhi, is reviewing the contract which runs into several thousand pages.
> 
> Once this document is firmed up, the file goes back to the Cabinet Committee on Security for final approval, which, at this stage, is likely to be a formality.
> 
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would be acquiring 36 Rafale fighter jets from France in an off-the-shelf purchase when he visited France in April last year. Deliveries of the fighter are likely to begin in 2019. Sharp differences between Indian and French price negotiators meant that neither side was able to achieve a breakthrough till now.




@PARIKRAMA @anant_s @hellfire @Taygibay @Vergennes @ito @Levina @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @nair @Star Wars @ranjeet @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN 

I find it interesting that this is now being shouted from rooftops when it was almost always going to be the case that the Meteor would form part of the Rafale's weapons package. An intriguing shift has occurred, before the Rafale deal was being maligned at every turn but now the very same outlets are rejoicing in the fact that India will be getting "the world's most advanced missile".

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## GuardianRED

Abingdonboy said:


> @PARIKRAMA @anant_s @hellfire @Taygibay @Vergennes @ito @Levina @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @nair @Star Wars @ranjeet @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN
> 
> I find it interesting that this is now being shouted from rooftops when it was almost always going to be the case that the Meteor would form part of the Rafale's weapons package. An intriguing shift has occurred, before the Rafale deal was being maligned at every turn but now the very same outlets are rejoicing in the fact that India will be getting "the world's most advanced missile".


Think the quote "When can't beat them , join them" is very apt for this shift. 

Honestly ,the day that this deal is signed, will be for more of a relief (FINALLY) than A BIG rejoice!

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## [Bregs]

Vergennes said:


> I've been waiting so long to post this ;
> 
> View attachment 334668
> 
> -
> @Abingdonboy I doubt he would miss the signature,and would make some publicity of it,to show his "achievements".
> (Bringing money,maintaining/creating jobs things like that.... not forgeting the renown of our industries.)




This deal seems to be in limbo when unfortunate leaks came out regarding scorpene subs but mature sense prevailed in political leaders from both countries and this deal rightfully went ahead after *crossing at least 7.8 billion hurdles  since past 4 yrs
*
*




*​**

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## Abingdonboy

GuardianRED said:


> Think the quote "When can't beat them , join them" is very apt for this shift.
> 
> Honestly ,the day that this deal is signed, will be for more of a relief (FINALLY) than A BIG rejoice!


Too true, they tried their very best to deny the possibility but at last we have a firm date for contract signature. Once the writing is on the wall these shills have to fall in line.

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## PARIKRAMA

I am expecting a similar photo







Abingdonboy said:


> @PARIKRAMA @anant_s @hellfire @Taygibay @Vergennes @ito @Levina @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @nair @Star Wars @ranjeet @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN
> 
> I find it interesting that this is now being shouted from rooftops when it was almost always going to be the case that the Meteor would form part of the Rafale's weapons package. An intriguing shift has occurred, before the Rafale deal was being maligned at every turn but now the very same outlets are rejoicing in the fact that India will be getting "the world's most advanced missile".


How long they can say whats illogical and in a way a view which does not have any support from IAF and IN.
Look into future , we will have soon 2 more IAC1 type carriers and IAC2 type also 2 carriers. Who will be able to field so many aircrafts unless there is a simple Make In India medium category fighter eventually to be replaced by indigenous 5th gen Medium class aircraft.

Coupled with minimum 10+ squadron of IAF. We are looking at humongous opportunity. *Its a loss for India and France if they cannot leverage this opportunity by making Rafale affordable and use this opportunity to build a even stronger India France relationship.*

@Abingdonboy - go read ajai shukla tweets. Here are his gem












The man even started a hashtag in frustration











Completely forgetting he advocated time and again Saab Gripen and F35

look at shiv aroor, all the time Saab Gripen

Vishnu Som bcz he did nt get a Rafale backseat ride, always pushing for any fighter except rafale

TOI/ET always breaking F16/F18 news.

yet today all except few are back in line saying good things bcz it was always the prime deal. teh question was only about time of execution. Every logic is known. Soon more things will be known when* MII part *will come out.

I wish people can actually understand how another 36 jets can easily be accommodated in the same infra and basic packages and future acquisitions will be even less costly as we keep expanding the bases and use MII Rafales.

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## Abingdonboy

[Bregs] said:


> This deal seems to be in limbo when unfortunate leaks came out regarding scorpene subs but mature sense prevailed in political leaders from both countries and this deal rightfully went ahead after *crossing at least 7.8 billion hurdles  since past 4 yrs
> *
> *
> View attachment 334684
> 
> *​**


I had feared for the progress of this deal in the post-Scorpene/"leakgate" environment. Despite all informed commentators being aware that the leaks were next to inconsequential to India we have seen it before how the ignorant masses and presstitiutes play their part and disrupt such efforts. Look no further than the Augusta Westland saga to see how prone Indian so-called leaders are to throw the baby out with the bath water. 

I had considered that it would take some serious b@lls to sign another high profile deal with the French so soon after these events but In spite of all the negativity created by the Scorpene mess the Rafale deal is being signed just a few weeks later. 


Now THAT is leadership. Say what you will about Modi but he IS working for the interests of his nation. 

@Nilgiri



PARIKRAMA said:


> I am expecting a similar photo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How long they can say whats illogical and in a way a view which does not have any support from IAF and IN.
> Look into future , we will have soon 2 more IAC1 type carriers and IAC2 type also 2 carriers. Who will be able to field so many aircrafts unless there is a simple Make In India medium category fighter eventually to be replaced by indigenous 5th gen Medium class aircraft.
> 
> Coupled with minimum 10+ squadron of IAF. We are looking at humongous opportunity. *Its a loss for India and France if they cannot leverage this opportunity by making Rafale affordable and use this opportunity to build a even stronger India France relationship.*
> 
> @Abingdonboy - go read ajai shukla tweets. Here are his gem
> 
> View attachment 334680
> 
> 
> View attachment 334683
> 
> 
> 
> The man even started a hashtag in frustration
> 
> View attachment 334685
> 
> 
> View attachment 334686
> 
> 
> Completely forgetting he advocated time and again Saab Gripen and F35
> 
> look at shiv aroor, all the time Saab Gripen
> 
> Vishnu Som bcz he did nt get a Rafale backseat ride, always pushing for any fighter except rafale
> 
> TOI/ET always breaking F16/F18 news.
> 
> yet today all except few are back in line saying good things bcz it was always the prime deal. teh question was only about time of execution. Every logic is known. Soon more things will be known when* MII part *will come out.
> 
> I wish people can actually understand how another 36 jets can easily be accommodated in the same infra and basic packages and future acquisitions will be even less costly as we keep expanding the bases and use MII Rafales.


Wow, just wow. I actually didn't think Mr Shukla could sink this low, either he is being intellectually dishonest or is so out of the loop on these matters that he shouldn't consider himself a defence journalist or any sort of journalist at all. 


When the MII plan is revealed even these idiotic tantrums will be silenced......

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## Hellfire

@PARIKRAMA 

I had a run in with him that is Ajai Shukla on his blog site eight years back. Idiotic character if I may say so. Was busy in crying over T-90s at the time and lack of induction of Arjun! Tried to make him see the reason that T-90s were decided in 1999 after Pak T-80 deal .... could not look beyond crying ..

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## Abingdonboy

+ @PARIKRAMA bro, the only #irony here is that Mr Shukla has the cheek to be so anti-Rafale when he has pushed for the F-35 and Gripen (fighters the IAF does not want) for years.

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## Levina

[Bregs] said:


> *Rafale deal to be signed on September 23*


And I have a dandiya party on the same night.
Oops!

Congrats India!!! 



Abingdonboy said:


> Meteor would form part of the Rafale's weapons package


Yep yep.
Not even China has it.

Okay now will somebody tell me what is Ksepanastre?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/776365781709787136

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## Wet Shirt Contest

What are the "Customization" IAF is looking for its new birds ? and how many MBDA Meteors are ordered ?
Thanks.

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> Vishnu Som bcz he did nt get a Rafale backseat ride, always pushing for any fighter except rafale



No, he got a ride.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/thunder-at-100-feet-flying-frances-rafale-superfighter-495271



Wet Shirt Contest said:


> What are the "Customization" IAF is looking for its new birds ?



There are standard specs and Indian-specific specs.

Under standard ones, it's for all Rafale clients, that's uprated engine, Spectra and radar upgrades, SATCOM, new materials for the airframe etc.

For the Indian-specific ones, it will most likely include Indian weapons, Israeli HMD, Litening pod...

These are the ones we know of.



> and how many MBDA Meteors are ordered ?
> Thanks.



I'm guessing less than 150.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

[Bregs] said:


> 36+18 follow on are sure and even this number is not economical for such a costly aircraft if there is not a make in india proposal to manufacture 72+36 for naval version of Rafale



If 36, atleast 153 more for IAF.IAF will have a minimum of 9 Rafale squadrons.

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## Vergennes

BREAKING NEWS ; Coming the first footage from the anti Rafale comittee office after the announcement of the signature on the 23rd.
The authorities are fearing more people could jump.







@Nilgiri @PARIKRAMA @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Abingdonboy @Fireurimagination @GuardianRED @R!CK @ranjeet @Levina @SmilingBuddha @hellfire @anant_s @SrNair @SarthakGanguly etc.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Fireurimagination said:


> I'm gonna have a hell of a party on September 23rd then and if this time they postpone then


No party untill the first tranche of payment is approved.

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## Odysseus

The Rafale deal between India and France will be signed later this month

*New Delhi: *More than a decade after India decided to purchase a new line of fighter aircraft, it is now official. On September 23rd, India will sign a deal for 36 Rafale fighters with France for about 7.87 billion Euros, sources have told NDTV.

Along with the 36 fighters, India will also get spares and weaponry, including the Meteor missile, considered among the most advanced in the world. 


Of the 7.87 billion Euros, about 50 per cent will be covered under offset, which means either France will reinvest this amount in India or source equipment of this value from India.

French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will be in India for the signing of the deal.

An Inter-Governmental Agreement between India and France allows for a follow on order of Rafale fighters with a 10 per cent cost escalation. The government claims that it has brought down the price by about 600 million Euros from the initial demand.

The deal could not be signed this January when French President Francois Hollande was the Chief Guest for the Republic Day because India wanted a better price.

Negotiations went on till 2 am on January 26, but an agreement on price could not be reached then. India and France agreed to sign a general agreement without naming the price.

For the Indian Air Force, the deal is bitter-sweet. On one hand, they will be getting two squadrons of the state-of-the-art fighter, on the other hand, the original requirement was for at least 126 jets.

India needs at least 42 squadrons of fighters and has an existing strength of 32. The fighter fleet will go down further by about 10 squadrons as the MiG-21 fighter will have to be decommissioned.

The new fighters will begin entering service in 2019.

http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/india-to-pay-7-87-billion-euros-for-36-rafale-fighters-1459175

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## cerberus




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## $@rJen

Odysseus said:


> The Rafale deal between India and France will be signed later this month
> 
> *New Delhi: *More than a decade after India decided to purchase a new line of fighter aircraft, it is now official. On September 23rd, India will sign a deal for 36 Rafale fighters with France for about 7.87 billion Euros, sources have told NDTV.
> 
> Along with the 36 fighters, India will also get spares and weaponry, including the Meteor missile, considered among the most advanced in the world.
> 
> 
> Of the 7.87 billion Euros, about 50 per cent will be covered under offset, which means either France will reinvest this amount in India or source equipment of this value from India.
> 
> French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will be in India for the signing of the deal.
> 
> An Inter-Governmental Agreement between India and France allows for a follow on order of Rafale fighters with a 10 per cent cost escalation. The government claims that it has brought down the price by about 600 million Euros from the initial demand.
> 
> The deal could not be signed this January when French President Francois Hollande was the Chief Guest for the Republic Day because India wanted a better price.
> 
> Negotiations went on till 2 am on January 26, but an agreement on price could not be reached then. India and France agreed to sign a general agreement without naming the price.
> 
> For the Indian Air Force, the deal is bitter-sweet. On one hand, they will be getting two squadrons of the state-of-the-art fighter, on the other hand, the original requirement was for at least 126 jets.
> 
> India needs at least 42 squadrons of fighters and has an existing strength of 32. The fighter fleet will go down further by about 10 squadrons as the MiG-21 fighter will have to be decommissioned.
> 
> The new fighters will begin entering service in 2019.
> 
> http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/india-to-pay-7-87-billion-euros-for-36-rafale-fighters-1459175



I'm gonna suicide bomb you to hell on 24th if the deal is not signed on 23rd..

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## egodoc222

Atlast.....!!!
Hope we don't have another twist in the tail!!
#fingerscrossed

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## Abingdonboy

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> No party untill the first tranche of payment is approved.


Nah, Bro we can celebrate IF ink is put to paper on the 23rd. 

I know this whole saga with all of its false starts and red herrings has got all of us very dubious and paranoid but if Parrikar or Most are signing a deal next Friday then be sure the full weight of the GoI is behind it. For no other reason than Modi is a man in a hurry and a man of action do I trust that next week we get to party 



Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> If 36, atleast 153 more for IAF.IAF will have a minimum of 9 Rafale squadrons.


Check out the IN sticky bro, the IN is going to have a mammoth demand for their own Rafale fleet by 2022-4 bro.

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## anant_s

Vergennes said:


> BREAKING NEWS ; Coming the first footage from the anti Rafale comittee office after the announcement of the signature on the 23rd.
> The authorities are fearing more people could jump.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Nilgiri @PARIKRAMA @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Abingdonboy @Fireurimagination @GuardianRED @R!CK @ranjeet @Levina @SmilingBuddha @hellfire @anant_s @SrNair @SarthakGanguly etc.



A lot of jumping going around. i for one, am jumping with joy
Watch jumping jhapak!

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## nair

hellfire said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> I had a run in with him that is Ajai Shukla on his blog site eight years back. Idiotic character if I may say so. Was busy in crying over T-90s at the time and lack of induction of Arjun! Tried to make him see the reason that T-90s were decided in 1999 after Pak T-80 deal .... could not look beyond crying ..


I heard of a thread where in u single handedly destroyed every fan boy's of arjun's Way bak in pdf...

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## Levina

Vergennes said:


> BREAKING NEWS ; Coming the first footage from the anti Rafale comittee office after the announcement of the signature on the 23rd.
> The authorities are fearing more people could jump.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Nilgiri @PARIKRAMA @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Abingdonboy @Fireurimagination @GuardianRED @R!CK @ranjeet @Levina @SmilingBuddha @hellfire @anant_s @SrNair @SarthakGanguly etc.



Grrrrrrrrrr


Nobody has answered my question yet.
WHAT IS KSEPANASTRE? That this guy has tweeted about>>


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/776365781709787136

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Vergennes @anant_s



nair said:


> I heard of a thread where in u single handed my destroyed every fan boy's of arjun's Way bak in pdf...


Yeah even I heard about it. 
@hellfire

Lolz

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## zebra7

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> What are the "Customization" IAF is looking for its new birds ? and how many MBDA Meteors are ordered ?
> Thanks.



Meteors is a costly weapon, and won't be ordered in large number and would only be meant for special target/purpose/high valluable e.g AWAACs. Meteors would be customized to be launched from Mirrage 2000 UPG, Rafale F3R, and Su-30 MKI Upgraded (For that special deal have to be made with the Russian OEM and MBDA).

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## BON PLAN

Spectre said:


> Delicious. Rest are perfunctory.
> 
> If India wants it's own custom weapons loadout then why spend so much on weapons package


No evidence of a heavy weapons package so far, except Meteor.
With 500 Mica already ordered for M2000 You have some time to complete or add your own AtoA missile.
SCALP ? AASM ? maybe, maybe not.

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## kaykay

Things are looking convincing but let us wait.

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## anant_s

& special mention to @Abingdonboy

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## BON PLAN

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm surprised Mr Hollande doesn't want to take the publicity for himself and isn't making the trip over to India personally especially in an election year. @Taygibay @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN


Is it the GtoG agreement or the formal commercial agreement that will be inked?
In the first case, Le Drian is enough, because the real things may take some more time.
In the second case.... It's surprising.

So I think it's not the real end of this saga.

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## anant_s

Levina said:


> WHAT IS KSEPANASTRE?


Has something to do with RAFAEL (nadal maybe?)

@Vergennes @Taygibay 
How about packing some Eclairs (you know sweeten the deal)

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## cerberus

BON PLAN said:


> Is it the GtoG agreement or the formal commercial agreement that will be inked?
> In the first case, Le Drian is enough, because the real things may take some more time.
> In the second case.... It's surprising.
> 
> So I think it's not the real end of this saga.


IAF Is Like Bengal Tiger Once They get Essense of Blood They hunt

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## Levina

anant_s said:


> Has something to do with RAFAEL (nadal maybe?)
> 
> @Vergennes @Taygibay
> How about packing some Eclairs (you know sweeten the deal)
> View attachment 334698



I had a hunch that KSEPANATRE is a French word. 

So still no answer?
Sigh! 



anant_s said:


> Has something to do with RAFAEL (nadal maybe?


Not Nadal.
The guy mentioned sophisticated weapons and rafael in his tweet.

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## Iggy

nair said:


> I heard of a thread where in u single handed my destroyed every fan boy's of arjun's Way bak in pdf...





Levina said:


> Yeah even I heard about it.
> @hellfire
> 
> Lolz




 really??


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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> Is it the GtoG agreement or the formal commercial agreement that will be inked?
> In the first case, Le Drian is enough, because the real things may take some more time.
> In the second case.... It's surprising.
> 
> So I think it's not the real end of this saga.



IGA and contract will be signed on the same day.

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## anant_s

Levina said:


> I had a hunch that KSEPANATRE is a French word.
> 
> So still no answer?
> Sigh!
> 
> 
> Not Nadal.
> The guy mentioned sophisticated weapons and rafael in his tweet.


Surely there is no such word!

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## halloweene

PARIKRAMA said:


> I am expecting a similar photo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How long they can say whats illogical and in a way a view which does not have any support from IAF and IN.
> Look into future , we will have soon 2 more IAC1 type carriers and IAC2 type also 2 carriers. Who will be able to field so many aircrafts unless there is a simple Make In India medium category fighter eventually to be replaced by indigenous 5th gen Medium class aircraft.
> 
> Coupled with minimum 10+ squadron of IAF. We are looking at humongous opportunity. *Its a loss for India and France if they cannot leverage this opportunity by making Rafale affordable and use this opportunity to build a even stronger India France relationship.*
> 
> @Abingdonboy - go read ajai shukla tweets. Here are his gem
> 
> View attachment 334680
> 
> 
> View attachment 334683
> 
> 
> 
> The man even started a hashtag in frustration
> 
> View attachment 334685
> 
> 
> View attachment 334686
> 
> 
> Completely forgetting he advocated time and again Saab Gripen and F35
> 
> look at shiv aroor, all the time Saab Gripen
> 
> Vishnu Som bcz he did nt get a Rafale backseat ride, always pushing for any fighter except rafale
> 
> TOI/ET always breaking F16/F18 news.
> 
> yet today all except few are back in line saying good things bcz it was always the prime deal. teh question was only about time of execution. Every logic is known. Soon more things will be known when* MII part *will come out.
> 
> I wish people can actually understand how another 36 jets can easily be accommodated in the same infra and basic packages and future acquisitions will be even less costly as we keep expanding the bases and use MII Rafales.


Shukla is a basic radar hater eversince he was denied a rear seat flight he had wined for

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## nair

Iggy said:


> really??


Looking for negatives?


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## Trying to be honest

Levina said:


> I had a hunch that KSEPANATRE is a French word.
> 
> So still no answer?
> Sigh!
> 
> 
> Not Nadal.
> The guy mentioned sophisticated weapons and rafael in his tweet.


Benagli word for missile is ksepanastra


----------



## Iggy

Vergennes said:


> I've been waiting so long to post this ;
> 
> View attachment 334668
> 
> -
> @Abingdonboy I doubt he would miss the signature,and would make some publicity of it,to show his "achievements".
> (Bringing money,maintaining/creating jobs things like that.... not forgeting the renown of our industries.)




To be frank, this is a cursed pic..Whenever someone post dat picture, the date got postponed 



nair said:


> Looking for negatives?



What did I do???

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## BON PLAN

zebra7 said:


> Meteors is a costly weapon, and won't be ordered in large number and would only be meant for special target/purpose/high valluable e.g AWAACs. Meteors would be customized to be launched from Mirrage 2000 UPG, Rafale F3R, and Su-30 MKI Upgraded (For that special deal have to be made with the Russian OEM and MBDA).


No Meteor integration on Mirage 2000 ever studied.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

@PARIKRAMA just reshare the steps for Rafale deal which you had posted before. Couldn't spot it ...

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## Levina

anant_s said:


> Surely there is no such word!


Yeah even I tried googling the word.
Even asked the guy who tweeted KSEPANATRE and Rafeal in a single line. But he seems to have disappeared in thin air.
Since it was mentioned after sophisticated weapons, I have a feeling that it is related to RADAR. Possible?



Trying to be honest said:


> Benagli word for missile is ksepanastra


Trying to be funny? 
Btw the word ends with E not A.

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## Hellfire

nair said:


> I heard of a thread where in u single handedly destroyed every fan boy's of arjun's Way bak in pdf...



yikes. I don't even recall that. Must have been in the days of qsaark and S-2 before my first sabbatical. The latter was an american artillery guy (i think) and was on about 'highway of death' et al.. would be going on about M1s and had to get down to KE Penetrators .. and right to turbine vs diesels ...arjun was a casualty in that

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## Vergennes

Levina said:


> I had a hunch that KSEPANATRE is a French word.
> 
> So still no answer?
> Sigh!
> 
> 
> Not Nadal.
> The guy mentioned sophisticated weapons and rafael in his tweet.



@anant_s As a french speaker,I can tell you,that no such words exist nor means anything in our language,forget about it. ;-)

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## Athen

I can't believe I am still alive to see this deal signed... Oh ...crying

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## debspark90

Guys any idea if we are getting the SCALP EG too ?

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## PARIKRAMA

@Abingdonboy ,

I wish @vstol jockey could have been here. I had invited him and i hope he joins the party here. And you do know where to find him 

I said about the benchmarking aspect discussed in the CCS meeting 










I have said before about MII and also about the exit clause





Just now vstol expanded it further when i said about MII (Xposting from another forum). Thsi actually helps us connect the dots and see the much bigger picture.





So if its purely off the shelf and there is no MII - 80 Rafales.

I queried him further and got this as revert






largest operator implies more than 286, in line with what i have always said here in this forum. and Vstol hav also been saying this for a very very long time.

and 






This does open up a complete path of actually seeing the true face of offset implementation if audit is actually done. For long we as a country has been duped. American side have actually given us simulators under offsets implementation. That is the level weapon dealers have gone to see they actually use offset for fooling us day and night.

A audit will show trruly what is the reality and how much actually one is adhering to the agreement.


BTW his views about another MII line actually syncs pretty much with what you and I have been saying or long.





I hope his idea /concept of LSA gets chosen or heavily borrowed from LSA a new LCA variant comes out.

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## nair

hellfire said:


> yikes. I don't even recall that. Must have been in the days of qsaark and S-2 before my first sabbatical. The latter was an american artillery guy (i think) and was on about 'highway of death' et al.. would be going on about M1s and had to get down to KE Penetrators .. and right to turbine vs diesels ...arjun was a casualty in that


It was way bak in 2009 or 10

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## Trying to be honest

Levina said:


> Yeah even I tried googling the word.
> Even asked the guy who tweeted KSEPANATRE and Rafeal in a single line. But he seems to have disappeared in thin air.
> Since it was mentioned after sophisticated weapons, I have a feeling that it is related to RADAR. Possible?
> 
> 
> Trying to be funny?
> Btw the word ends with E not A.


No i am not. The guy you quoted is bengali rss guy. You can ask him you want and also spelling mistake by him, i am guessing. Sometimes things are simpler than we expect.

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## Levina

Trying to be honest said:


> No i am not. The guy you quoted is bengali rss guy. You can ask him you want and also spelling mistake by him, i am guessing. Sometimes things are simpler than we expect.


Good observation. 
Yes he is a Bengali. Now that it's confirmed that it's not a French word, I'll wait for his reply.


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## Odysseus

sarjenprabhu said:


> I'm gonna suicide bomb you to hell on 24th if the deal is not signed on 23rd..


 You have to take that up with NDTV. And please do that Bakra Dutt with you also.


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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> @PARIKRAMA just reshare the steps for Rafale deal which you had posted before. Couldn't spot it ...







https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-294#post-8529154

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## Indrajit

randomradio said:


> We don't know that. They will try to make it cheaper than what we are getting right now.
> 
> Second and third contracts are always cheaper for the same hardware. IN contract will obviously be more expensive.



Well, let's talk about it when we know. Talk is free, money as far as I'm aware, is not.


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## Ankit Kumar 002

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 334710
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-294#post-8529154



Are we expecting step 7 and 8 both on 23?

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## PARIKRAMA

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Are we expecting step 7 and 8 both on 23?


Not sure.. Step 7 for sure.

Step 8 can be done in case upper echleon are in town but thats a difficult choice bcz then Prez Hollande will also be here.

BTW do you know whats in 21st September? 
Yes yes its another CCS meeting as well as date for cabinet level approvals 

@Abingdonboy @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil

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## Ankit Kumar 002

PARIKRAMA said:


> Not sure.. Step 7 for sure.
> 
> Step 8 can be done in case upper echleon are in town but thats a difficult choice bcz then Prez Hollande will also be here.
> 
> BTW do you know whats in 21st September?
> Yes yes its another CCS meeting as well as date for cabinet level approvals
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil



So atleast a formal CCS clearing and a formal IGA?

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## randomradio

Indrajit said:


> Well, let's talk about it when we know. Talk is free, money as far as I'm aware, is not.



Hollande wouldn't have said the deal with India is unprecedented if we were only buying 36 jets.

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## PARIKRAMA

debspark90 said:


> Guys any idea if we are getting the SCALP EG too ?


Meteor, Scalp, Mica etc in a small Euro 0.7Bn deal where Mica will be minimum, Meteor will be limited, a Scalp will be good amount+ some other weapons



Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> So atleast a formal CCS clearing and a formal IGA?


Yup its cabinet approval CCS level and formal IGA signing for sure.. step by step...
Payment in Q3 end or early Q4.



randomradio said:


> Hollande wouldn't have said the deal with India is unprecedented if we were only buying 36 jets.


For sure Prez Hollande knows bcz what we asked and what French side agreed, no way he can justify just 36 or 36+18=54 or 80 odd jets deal.
No body will give us RBE2 AESA Radar codes and software, Spectra codes, RAM details for local manufacturing , stealth aspects in aerodynamics level, etc etc.
Of course it will make more sense when people realise what would be the cost of an Indian made Rafale. and for that we have to wait for some time but it will be in the range of Rs 540 Crs (+/-10%) for sure as per the project reports which i said here earlier.

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## Indrajit

randomradio said:


> Hollande wouldn't have said the deal with India is unprecedented if we were only buying 36 jets.



I wouldn't know what Mr.Hollande has on his mind, I only know what the PM & DM of India have been saying along with an occasional random reading of the economy. I'm ruling nothing out, just saying that all we have now or are about to, is a signing for 36 jets. Will there be more? If this agreement for 36 is signed, ya possibly. Will the numbers be what you suggest? I wouldn't hold my breath regarding it. The budgetary positions for the foreseeable future seem to preclude that.

Why I think we should look at this for now. We can talk about the other figures when we reach that point, if ever.

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## [Bregs]

Chalo bhai logon now deal for 36=18( for future option) is over now. lets see now how much time MII deal takes

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## ZedZeeshan

so when is the delivery expected...2018...??


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## PARIKRAMA

@Abingdonboy 
This is specially for you. Our lovely Dr had spoken 

+++
*White elephant — Rafale, and missed opportunity with Su-35*
Posted on September 15, 2016by Bharat Karnad

The phrase ‘White elephant’ refers to an acquisition exorbitantly costly to buy, run, and upkeep and is derived from the story of a rare pachyderm that was acquired by the Thai court as a symbol of its Hindu power and religiosity and ended up beggaring that kingdom.

*The 36 Rafales that the Narendra Modi regime is obtaining for the Indian Air Force are, collectively, the white elephant whose costs will sink India’s military power because there’ll be no monies left over after the full program costs (with steeply rising value of the euro) of US$30-$40 billion are borne by the luckless Indian taxpayer, to fund any other major military procurement for the next decade or so. *

The Modi PMO is readying the cabinet note for approval of this buy by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), which is a formality. With nobody of political weight among his colleagues to question the PM’s choice, CCS’ OK is a foregone conclusion. This is generally what happens anyway when a military hardware selection process gets to this stage. There’s no instance, as far as I can recall, where CCS has come up with a nyet.

This reduction of CCS to a rubber stamp is an attribute of the Westminister model of government the Constituent Assembly chose without pondering the practical consequences for the country and which the ex-colonial power, Britain, incidentally, long ago trashed as inappropriate for a time when there’s lots more and revealing information available to any concerned legislators for the asking to enable informed decisionmaking.

In the IAF’s medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) sweepstakes, the Rafale was shortlisted along with the Eurofighter — Typhoon, and *won the race not for any technological or operational edge it provided, but because the French have been more diligent in nursing and nurturing a “support system” over the years that seamlessly servicing strategically placed personnel in the military procurement loop and within the Indian political class, Indian armed services, and Ministry of Defence (MOD), so when it comes to pushing their wares, the French items invariably come out on tops. After all, we Indians are only human and who can resist bank accounts full of euros, employment of close relatives in French transnational corporations in Europe, and crowned by repeated trips to, where else, Paris — ooh la la?   *

India’s national interest, in the event, cannot compete with the inducements France can so effortlessly summon. So India is the usual Third World state ripe for Paris’ (and, generally, West’s) pickings, whatever the political dispensation in New Delhi.

The Eurofighter was finding it difficult to find traction even within its primary market — the four main countries forming the EADS consortium that produced it, the plane being dismissed by the cognoscenti as something “Germany doesn’t want, Britain can’t afford, and Spain and Italy neither want nor can afford!”. *And, mind you, this ‘Typhoon’ had virtues the Rafale doesn’t, especially in terms of its potential for future development as a weapons platform with its modular structure and engineering aspects (which, by the way, EADS has foresworn because of the financial unviability of a genuinely 5th generation fighter project). *

If the Eurofighter lost out because of minimal price differential (*and EADS’s lack in Delhi of the French-type “support system” owing to the more straight-laced dealings by Germany, the lead player),* *the more economical Russian Su-35 was summarily rejected for no good reason at all. Even as earlier the request for this aircraft by the Strategic Forces Command for manned delivery of nuclear weapons was also turned down.* This even though the US Air Force as long ago as 2014 dubbed it the most serious challenger to its own fifth-gen JSF-35 Lightning-II. Regarding what the Su-35 can do consider the words of USAF pilots and aviation specialists, whose statements are reproduced from a 2014 story published in the ‘National Interest’ (http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-russian-bear-roars-the-sky-beware-the-deadly-su-35-11799):

With, as the story says, the Su-35 launching its weapons from “high supersonic speeds around Mach 1.5 at altitudes greater than 45,000 ft”, and the “F-35 primarily operating in the 30,000-ft range at speeds around Mach 0.9”, the Russian air-superiority fighter’s “major advantages are its combination of high altitude capability and blistering speed—which allow the fighter to impart the maximum possible amount of launch energy to its arsenal of long-range air-to-air missiles.” Or as an USAF officer put it, “The Su’s ability to go high and fast is a big concern, including for F-35”.

The Su-35 builds on the already potent Su-27 Flanker airframe, superior to the F-15 Eagle, and “adds a lighter airframe, three-dimensional thrust vectoring, advanced avionics and a powerful jamming capability.” As as an USAF pilot says “Large powerful engines, the ability to supercruise for a long time and very good avionics make this a tough platform…It’s considered a fourth gen plus-plus, as in it has more inherent capability on the aircraft [and] possesses a passive [electronically-scanned array and it] has a big off boresight capability and a very good jamming suite.” The addition of the electronic attack (EA) capability, according to the story, “complicates matters for Western fighters because the Su-35’s advanced digital radio frequency memory jammers can seriously degrade the performance of friendly radars. It also effectively blinds the onboard radars found onboard American-made air-to-air missiles like the AIM-120 AMRAAM.

But even the addition of AESA radars does not really solve the problem for F-35. “We—the U.S. Department of Defense—haven’t been pursuing appropriate methods to counter EA for years,” per a senior Air Force official with experience on the F-22 Raptor. “So, while we are stealthy, we will have a hard time working our way through the EA to target the Su-35s and our missiles will have a hard time killing them.”

The Su-35 also carries a potent infrared search and track capability that could pose a problem for Western fighters. “It also has non-EM [electro-magnetic] sensors to help it detect other aircraft, which could be useful in long-range detection,” a Super Hornet pilot said.

Another of the Su-35’s major advantages: “One thing I really like about the Su-35 is that it is a high-end truck: It can carry a ton of air-to-air ordnance into a fight,” a US Navy pilot said.

That’s the sort of trouble the US F-35 — an aircraft a full half-gen ahead of Rafale will confront going up against an ostensibly 4.5 gen (but surely 4.75 gen) Su-35s, the Chinese Air Force (PLAAF) is acquiring on a priority basis. So what chance will the Rafale stand against the PLAAF Su-35s? And, remember, India will not have the full complement of 36 Rafales until the mid- to late-2020s by when the PLAAF will have transitioned fully into the 4.75-gen Su-35 and its own 5th-gen Chengdu J-20 and the Shenyang J-31. Great strategic forethought and force planning IAF!

So some Qs about the Rafale:

1) How does IAF reconcile its stress on the dogfighting capability of its fighters with its reliance on BVR 100 km range AAM Meteor, while falling in with the French and against arming the Rafale with the indigenous more advanced version of the lightweight Brahmos ALCM? So, when it comes to French aircraft, it is willing to overlook its institutional bias? * (Meteor AAM versus Brahmos NG ALCM Air to Surface or Ship )*

2) Lacking numbers and in the “best case” context, no more than 23 Rafales will realistically be available to IAF at any given moment in time. How will these 23 be deployed, if in concentration — will they be enough to defeat the more numerous and swarming PAF or PLAAF aircraft, and if singly — again quantity pitches in against supposed quality (but for how long?) — so what use will these be in single sorties? (*63% availability  single sorties )*

3) It is a recipe, of course, for the Rafales being safely quartered, held away from harm’s way in war — considering they are simply too expensive to lose. So, another useless showpiece in the inventory? Like the EMALs-equipped Indian super-aircraft carrier? *show piece  *

4) Because there’s virtually no commonality in spares and upkeep regimes and protocols between the Mirage 2000 and the Rafale, entirely new and more expensive servicing training and maintenance infrastructure will have to be built up at enormous cost. Because whether IAF buys 6 Rafales, or 36, the investment in this aspect is the same! And as I have argued it will result in IAF making the case in the future that with these sunk costs, IAF should be allowed to import 60 or 100 or whatever additional number of Rafales the IAF brass of the day feels comfortable touting. That’s the strategy for upping the Rafale numbers is it not? *(is this something new? )*

5) Dassault/France will milk recurring profits (to reach the $40 billion figure) from stocking the above infrastructure with the spares and service support, and from untried and untested ordnance, such as the Meteor, each costing, what, US$2 million each. That’s the French profit plan and the lifeline0 to keep alive its industrial combat aviation capability. And IAF pays for this long term economic security of Dassault and France? rofl:  )

To repeat the quip by the great American comedian, WC Fields — suckers never get an even break.

https://bharatkarnad.com/2016/09/15/white-elephant-rafale-and-missed-opportunity-with-su-35/
+++
*Look at the heart burn

He is more of a whacked version of ajai shulka
*
@anant_s @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @Armani @GuardianRED @others

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> For sure Prez Hollande knows bcz what we asked and what French side agreed, no way he can justify just 36 or 36+18=54 or 80 odd jets deal.
> No body will give us RBE2 AESA Radar codes and software, Spectra codes, RAM details for local manufacturing , stealth aspects in aerodynamics level, etc etc.



We are expecting 50% ToT. So the airframe and the engine will see 100% production in India.



ZedZeeshan said:


> so when is the delivery expected...2018...??



All jets by 2019.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Abingdonboy
> This is specially for you. Our lovely Dr had spoken
> 
> +++
> *White elephant — Rafale, and missed opportunity with Su-35*
> Posted on September 15, 2016by Bharat Karnad
> 
> The phrase ‘White elephant’ refers to an acquisition exorbitantly costly to buy, run, and upkeep and is derived from the story of a rare pachyderm that was acquired by the Thai court as a symbol of its Hindu power and religiosity and ended up beggaring that kingdom.
> 
> *The 36 Rafales that the Narendra Modi regime is obtaining for the Indian Air Force are, collectively, the white elephant whose costs will sink India’s military power because there’ll be no monies left over after the full program costs (with steeply rising value of the euro) of US$30-$40 billion are borne by the luckless Indian taxpayer, to fund any other major military procurement for the next decade or so. *
> 
> The Modi PMO is readying the cabinet note for approval of this buy by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), which is a formality. With nobody of political weight among his colleagues to question the PM’s choice, CCS’ OK is a foregone conclusion. This is generally what happens anyway when a military hardware selection process gets to this stage. There’s no instance, as far as I can recall, where CCS has come up with a nyet.
> 
> This reduction of CCS to a rubber stamp is an attribute of the Westminister model of government the Constituent Assembly chose without pondering the practical consequences for the country and which the ex-colonial power, Britain, incidentally, long ago trashed as inappropriate for a time when there’s lots more and revealing information available to any concerned legislators for the asking to enable informed decisionmaking.
> 
> In the IAF’s medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) sweepstakes, the Rafale was shortlisted along with the Eurofighter — Typhoon, and *won the race not for any technological or operational edge it provided, but because the French have been more diligent in nursing and nurturing a “support system” over the years that seamlessly servicing strategically placed personnel in the military procurement loop and within the Indian political class, Indian armed services, and Ministry of Defence (MOD), so when it comes to pushing their wares, the French items invariably come out on tops. After all, we Indians are only human and who can resist bank accounts full of euros, employment of close relatives in French transnational corporations in Europe, and crowned by repeated trips to, where else, Paris — ooh la la?   *
> 
> India’s national interest, in the event, cannot compete with the inducements France can so effortlessly summon. So India is the usual Third World state ripe for Paris’ (and, generally, West’s) pickings, whatever the political dispensation in New Delhi.
> 
> The Eurofighter was finding it difficult to find traction even within its primary market — the four main countries forming the EADS consortium that produced it, the plane being dismissed by the cognoscenti as something “Germany doesn’t want, Britain can’t afford, and Spain and Italy neither want nor can afford!”. *And, mind you, this ‘Typhoon’ had virtues the Rafale doesn’t, especially in terms of its potential for future development as a weapons platform with its modular structure and engineering aspects (which, by the way, EADS has foresworn because of the financial unviability of a genuinely 5th generation fighter project). *
> 
> If the Eurofighter lost out because of minimal price differential (*and EADS’s lack in Delhi of the French-type “support system” owing to the more straight-laced dealings by Germany, the lead player),* *the more economical Russian Su-35 was summarily rejected for no good reason at all. Even as earlier the request for this aircraft by the Strategic Forces Command for manned delivery of nuclear weapons was also turned down.* This even though the US Air Force as long ago as 2014 dubbed it the most serious challenger to its own fifth-gen JSF-35 Lightning-II. Regarding what the Su-35 can do consider the words of USAF pilots and aviation specialists, whose statements are reproduced from a 2014 story published in the ‘National Interest’ (http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-russian-bear-roars-the-sky-beware-the-deadly-su-35-11799):
> 
> With, as the story says, the Su-35 launching its weapons from “high supersonic speeds around Mach 1.5 at altitudes greater than 45,000 ft”, and the “F-35 primarily operating in the 30,000-ft range at speeds around Mach 0.9”, the Russian air-superiority fighter’s “major advantages are its combination of high altitude capability and blistering speed—which allow the fighter to impart the maximum possible amount of launch energy to its arsenal of long-range air-to-air missiles.” Or as an USAF officer put it, “The Su’s ability to go high and fast is a big concern, including for F-35”.
> 
> The Su-35 builds on the already potent Su-27 Flanker airframe, superior to the F-15 Eagle, and “adds a lighter airframe, three-dimensional thrust vectoring, advanced avionics and a powerful jamming capability.” As as an USAF pilot says “Large powerful engines, the ability to supercruise for a long time and very good avionics make this a tough platform…It’s considered a fourth gen plus-plus, as in it has more inherent capability on the aircraft [and] possesses a passive [electronically-scanned array and it] has a big off boresight capability and a very good jamming suite.” The addition of the electronic attack (EA) capability, according to the story, “complicates matters for Western fighters because the Su-35’s advanced digital radio frequency memory jammers can seriously degrade the performance of friendly radars. It also effectively blinds the onboard radars found onboard American-made air-to-air missiles like the AIM-120 AMRAAM.
> 
> But even the addition of AESA radars does not really solve the problem for F-35. “We—the U.S. Department of Defense—haven’t been pursuing appropriate methods to counter EA for years,” per a senior Air Force official with experience on the F-22 Raptor. “So, while we are stealthy, we will have a hard time working our way through the EA to target the Su-35s and our missiles will have a hard time killing them.”
> 
> The Su-35 also carries a potent infrared search and track capability that could pose a problem for Western fighters. “It also has non-EM [electro-magnetic] sensors to help it detect other aircraft, which could be useful in long-range detection,” a Super Hornet pilot said.
> 
> Another of the Su-35’s major advantages: “One thing I really like about the Su-35 is that it is a high-end truck: It can carry a ton of air-to-air ordnance into a fight,” a US Navy pilot said.
> 
> That’s the sort of trouble the US F-35 — an aircraft a full half-gen ahead of Rafale will confront going up against an ostensibly 4.5 gen (but surely 4.75 gen) Su-35s, the Chinese Air Force (PLAAF) is acquiring on a priority basis. So what chance will the Rafale stand against the PLAAF Su-35s? And, remember, India will not have the full complement of 36 Rafales until the mid- to late-2020s by when the PLAAF will have transitioned fully into the 4.75-gen Su-35 and its own 5th-gen Chengdu J-20 and the Shenyang J-31. Great strategic forethought and force planning IAF!
> 
> So some Qs about the Rafale:
> 
> 1) How does IAF reconcile its stress on the dogfighting capability of its fighters with its reliance on BVR 100 km range AAM Meteor, while falling in with the French and against arming the Rafale with the indigenous more advanced version of the lightweight Brahmos ALCM? So, when it comes to French aircraft, it is willing to overlook its institutional bias? * (Meteor AAM versus Brahmos NG ALCM Air to Surface or Ship )*
> 
> 2) Lacking numbers and in the “best case” context, no more than 23 Rafales will realistically be available to IAF at any given moment in time. How will these 23 be deployed, if in concentration — will they be enough to defeat the more numerous and swarming PAF or PLAAF aircraft, and if singly — again quantity pitches in against supposed quality (but for how long?) — so what use will these be in single sorties? (*63% availability  single sorties )*
> 
> 3) It is a recipe, of course, for the Rafales being safely quartered, held away from harm’s way in war — considering they are simply too expensive to lose. So, another useless showpiece in the inventory? Like the EMALs-equipped Indian super-aircraft carrier? *show piece  *
> 
> 4) Because there’s virtually no commonality in spares and upkeep regimes and protocols between the Mirage 2000 and the Rafale, entirely new and more expensive servicing training and maintenance infrastructure will have to be built up at enormous cost. Because whether IAF buys 6 Rafales, or 36, the investment in this aspect is the same! And as I have argued it will result in IAF making the case in the future that with these sunk costs, IAF should be allowed to import 60 or 100 or whatever additional number of Rafales the IAF brass of the day feels comfortable touting. That’s the strategy for upping the Rafale numbers is it not? *(is this something new? )*
> 
> 5) Dassault/France will milk recurring profits (to reach the $40 billion figure) from stocking the above infrastructure with the spares and service support, and from untried and untested ordnance, such as the Meteor, each costing, what, US$2 million each. That’s the French profit plan and the lifeline0 to keep alive its industrial combat aviation capability. And IAF pays for this long term economic security of Dassault and France? rofl:  )
> 
> To repeat the quip by the great American comedian, WC Fields — suckers never get an even break.
> 
> https://bharatkarnad.com/2016/09/15/white-elephant-rafale-and-missed-opportunity-with-su-35/
> +++
> *Look at the heart burn
> 
> He is more of a whacked version of ajai shulka
> *
> @anant_s @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @Armani @GuardianRED @others



Its just the beginning.Lots of butthurts will come out...

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Abingdonboy
> This is specially for you. Our lovely Dr had spoken
> 
> +++
> *White elephant — Rafale, and missed opportunity with Su-35*
> Posted on September 15, 2016by Bharat Karnad
> 
> The phrase ‘White elephant’ refers to an acquisition exorbitantly costly to buy, run, and upkeep and is derived from the story of a rare pachyderm that was acquired by the Thai court as a symbol of its Hindu power and religiosity and ended up beggaring that kingdom.
> 
> *The 36 Rafales that the Narendra Modi regime is obtaining for the Indian Air Force are, collectively, the white elephant whose costs will sink India’s military power because there’ll be no monies left over after the full program costs (with steeply rising value of the euro) of US$30-$40 billion are borne by the luckless Indian taxpayer, to fund any other major military procurement for the next decade or so. *
> 
> The Modi PMO is readying the cabinet note for approval of this buy by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), which is a formality. With nobody of political weight among his colleagues to question the PM’s choice, CCS’ OK is a foregone conclusion. This is generally what happens anyway when a military hardware selection process gets to this stage. There’s no instance, as far as I can recall, where CCS has come up with a nyet.
> 
> This reduction of CCS to a rubber stamp is an attribute of the Westminister model of government the Constituent Assembly chose without pondering the practical consequences for the country and which the ex-colonial power, Britain, incidentally, long ago trashed as inappropriate for a time when there’s lots more and revealing information available to any concerned legislators for the asking to enable informed decisionmaking.
> 
> In the IAF’s medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) sweepstakes, the Rafale was shortlisted along with the Eurofighter — Typhoon, and *won the race not for any technological or operational edge it provided, but because the French have been more diligent in nursing and nurturing a “support system” over the years that seamlessly servicing strategically placed personnel in the military procurement loop and within the Indian political class, Indian armed services, and Ministry of Defence (MOD), so when it comes to pushing their wares, the French items invariably come out on tops. After all, we Indians are only human and who can resist bank accounts full of euros, employment of close relatives in French transnational corporations in Europe, and crowned by repeated trips to, where else, Paris — ooh la la?   *
> 
> India’s national interest, in the event, cannot compete with the inducements France can so effortlessly summon. So India is the usual Third World state ripe for Paris’ (and, generally, West’s) pickings, whatever the political dispensation in New Delhi.
> 
> The Eurofighter was finding it difficult to find traction even within its primary market — the four main countries forming the EADS consortium that produced it, the plane being dismissed by the cognoscenti as something “Germany doesn’t want, Britain can’t afford, and Spain and Italy neither want nor can afford!”. *And, mind you, this ‘Typhoon’ had virtues the Rafale doesn’t, especially in terms of its potential for future development as a weapons platform with its modular structure and engineering aspects (which, by the way, EADS has foresworn because of the financial unviability of a genuinely 5th generation fighter project). *
> 
> If the Eurofighter lost out because of minimal price differential (*and EADS’s lack in Delhi of the French-type “support system” owing to the more straight-laced dealings by Germany, the lead player),* *the more economical Russian Su-35 was summarily rejected for no good reason at all. Even as earlier the request for this aircraft by the Strategic Forces Command for manned delivery of nuclear weapons was also turned down.* This even though the US Air Force as long ago as 2014 dubbed it the most serious challenger to its own fifth-gen JSF-35 Lightning-II. Regarding what the Su-35 can do consider the words of USAF pilots and aviation specialists, whose statements are reproduced from a 2014 story published in the ‘National Interest’ (http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-russian-bear-roars-the-sky-beware-the-deadly-su-35-11799):
> 
> With, as the story says, the Su-35 launching its weapons from “high supersonic speeds around Mach 1.5 at altitudes greater than 45,000 ft”, and the “F-35 primarily operating in the 30,000-ft range at speeds around Mach 0.9”, the Russian air-superiority fighter’s “major advantages are its combination of high altitude capability and blistering speed—which allow the fighter to impart the maximum possible amount of launch energy to its arsenal of long-range air-to-air missiles.” Or as an USAF officer put it, “The Su’s ability to go high and fast is a big concern, including for F-35”.
> 
> The Su-35 builds on the already potent Su-27 Flanker airframe, superior to the F-15 Eagle, and “adds a lighter airframe, three-dimensional thrust vectoring, advanced avionics and a powerful jamming capability.” As as an USAF pilot says “Large powerful engines, the ability to supercruise for a long time and very good avionics make this a tough platform…It’s considered a fourth gen plus-plus, as in it has more inherent capability on the aircraft [and] possesses a passive [electronically-scanned array and it] has a big off boresight capability and a very good jamming suite.” The addition of the electronic attack (EA) capability, according to the story, “complicates matters for Western fighters because the Su-35’s advanced digital radio frequency memory jammers can seriously degrade the performance of friendly radars. It also effectively blinds the onboard radars found onboard American-made air-to-air missiles like the AIM-120 AMRAAM.
> 
> But even the addition of AESA radars does not really solve the problem for F-35. “We—the U.S. Department of Defense—haven’t been pursuing appropriate methods to counter EA for years,” per a senior Air Force official with experience on the F-22 Raptor. “So, while we are stealthy, we will have a hard time working our way through the EA to target the Su-35s and our missiles will have a hard time killing them.”
> 
> The Su-35 also carries a potent infrared search and track capability that could pose a problem for Western fighters. “It also has non-EM [electro-magnetic] sensors to help it detect other aircraft, which could be useful in long-range detection,” a Super Hornet pilot said.
> 
> Another of the Su-35’s major advantages: “One thing I really like about the Su-35 is that it is a high-end truck: It can carry a ton of air-to-air ordnance into a fight,” a US Navy pilot said.
> 
> That’s the sort of trouble the US F-35 — an aircraft a full half-gen ahead of Rafale will confront going up against an ostensibly 4.5 gen (but surely 4.75 gen) Su-35s, the Chinese Air Force (PLAAF) is acquiring on a priority basis. So what chance will the Rafale stand against the PLAAF Su-35s? And, remember, India will not have the full complement of 36 Rafales until the mid- to late-2020s by when the PLAAF will have transitioned fully into the 4.75-gen Su-35 and its own 5th-gen Chengdu J-20 and the Shenyang J-31. Great strategic forethought and force planning IAF!
> 
> So some Qs about the Rafale:
> 
> 1) How does IAF reconcile its stress on the dogfighting capability of its fighters with its reliance on BVR 100 km range AAM Meteor, while falling in with the French and against arming the Rafale with the indigenous more advanced version of the lightweight Brahmos ALCM? So, when it comes to French aircraft, it is willing to overlook its institutional bias? * (Meteor AAM versus Brahmos NG ALCM Air to Surface or Ship )*
> 
> 2) Lacking numbers and in the “best case” context, no more than 23 Rafales will realistically be available to IAF at any given moment in time. How will these 23 be deployed, if in concentration — will they be enough to defeat the more numerous and swarming PAF or PLAAF aircraft, and if singly — again quantity pitches in against supposed quality (but for how long?) — so what use will these be in single sorties? (*63% availability  single sorties )*
> 
> 3) It is a recipe, of course, for the Rafales being safely quartered, held away from harm’s way in war — considering they are simply too expensive to lose. So, another useless showpiece in the inventory? Like the EMALs-equipped Indian super-aircraft carrier? *show piece  *
> 
> 4) Because there’s virtually no commonality in spares and upkeep regimes and protocols between the Mirage 2000 and the Rafale, entirely new and more expensive servicing training and maintenance infrastructure will have to be built up at enormous cost. Because whether IAF buys 6 Rafales, or 36, the investment in this aspect is the same! And as I have argued it will result in IAF making the case in the future that with these sunk costs, IAF should be allowed to import 60 or 100 or whatever additional number of Rafales the IAF brass of the day feels comfortable touting. That’s the strategy for upping the Rafale numbers is it not? *(is this something new? )*
> 
> 5) Dassault/France will milk recurring profits (to reach the $40 billion figure) from stocking the above infrastructure with the spares and service support, and from untried and untested ordnance, such as the Meteor, each costing, what, US$2 million each. That’s the French profit plan and the lifeline0 to keep alive its industrial combat aviation capability. And IAF pays for this long term economic security of Dassault and France? rofl:  )
> 
> To repeat the quip by the great American comedian, WC Fields — suckers never get an even break.
> 
> https://bharatkarnad.com/2016/09/15/white-elephant-rafale-and-missed-opportunity-with-su-35/
> +++
> *Look at the heart burn
> 
> He is more of a whacked version of ajai shulka
> *
> @anant_s @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @Armani @GuardianRED @others



Worth a read if you want a good laugh.

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## Hellfire

Interesting points raised by Bharat Karnad.

One really needs to look into it and in the process forestall any major acquisition over the next decade. I like him ... we don't need enemies!

Coming back to point, what the jolly good fellow clearly does not say is that the armed forces have been surrendering upto Rs 27000 crores every fiscal (3.5 Billion Euros) in un-utilised funds due to lack of activity at MoD till date. Additionally, he cleanly skipped the reduction of Kerosene authorisation for troops in high altitude (which they need for boiling water to drink, heating for personal and cooking use and also for heating themselves and which is insufficient as water has to be made from snow!!!) by 50% by UPA to finance the food subsidy bill in the first fiscal of it's launch.

Could things be more laughable?

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## anant_s

You Will!

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## Bali78

Levina said:


> I had a hunch that KSEPANATRE is a French word.
> 
> So still no answer?
> Sigh!
> 
> 
> Not Nadal.
> The guy mentioned sophisticated weapons and rafael in his tweet.


Ksepanastre means "Missile" in Sanskrit

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## PARIKRAMA

this is for all.. courtesy Shiv Aroor
















Ignore the tri color in the tail fin. it got mirrored


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/776463557789491200

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @hellfire @ranjeet @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @R!CK @zebra7 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Abingdonboy
> This is specially for you. Our lovely Dr had spoken
> 
> +++
> *White elephant — Rafale, and missed opportunity with Su-35*
> Posted on September 15, 2016by Bharat Karnad
> 
> The phrase ‘White elephant’ refers to an acquisition exorbitantly costly to buy, run, and upkeep and is derived from the story of a rare pachyderm that was acquired by the Thai court as a symbol of its Hindu power and religiosity and ended up beggaring that kingdom.
> 
> *The 36 Rafales that the Narendra Modi regime is obtaining for the Indian Air Force are, collectively, the white elephant whose costs will sink India’s military power because there’ll be no monies left over after the full program costs (with steeply rising value of the euro) of US$30-$40 billion are borne by the luckless Indian taxpayer, to fund any other major military procurement for the next decade or so. *
> 
> The Modi PMO is readying the cabinet note for approval of this buy by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), which is a formality. With nobody of political weight among his colleagues to question the PM’s choice, CCS’ OK is a foregone conclusion. This is generally what happens anyway when a military hardware selection process gets to this stage. There’s no instance, as far as I can recall, where CCS has come up with a nyet.
> 
> This reduction of CCS to a rubber stamp is an attribute of the Westminister model of government the Constituent Assembly chose without pondering the practical consequences for the country and which the ex-colonial power, Britain, incidentally, long ago trashed as inappropriate for a time when there’s lots more and revealing information available to any concerned legislators for the asking to enable informed decisionmaking.
> 
> In the IAF’s medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) sweepstakes, the Rafale was shortlisted along with the Eurofighter — Typhoon, and *won the race not for any technological or operational edge it provided, but because the French have been more diligent in nursing and nurturing a “support system” over the years that seamlessly servicing strategically placed personnel in the military procurement loop and within the Indian political class, Indian armed services, and Ministry of Defence (MOD), so when it comes to pushing their wares, the French items invariably come out on tops. After all, we Indians are only human and who can resist bank accounts full of euros, employment of close relatives in French transnational corporations in Europe, and crowned by repeated trips to, where else, Paris — ooh la la?   *
> 
> India’s national interest, in the event, cannot compete with the inducements France can so effortlessly summon. So India is the usual Third World state ripe for Paris’ (and, generally, West’s) pickings, whatever the political dispensation in New Delhi.
> 
> The Eurofighter was finding it difficult to find traction even within its primary market — the four main countries forming the EADS consortium that produced it, the plane being dismissed by the cognoscenti as something “Germany doesn’t want, Britain can’t afford, and Spain and Italy neither want nor can afford!”. *And, mind you, this ‘Typhoon’ had virtues the Rafale doesn’t, especially in terms of its potential for future development as a weapons platform with its modular structure and engineering aspects (which, by the way, EADS has foresworn because of the financial unviability of a genuinely 5th generation fighter project). *
> 
> If the Eurofighter lost out because of minimal price differential (*and EADS’s lack in Delhi of the French-type “support system” owing to the more straight-laced dealings by Germany, the lead player),* *the more economical Russian Su-35 was summarily rejected for no good reason at all. Even as earlier the request for this aircraft by the Strategic Forces Command for manned delivery of nuclear weapons was also turned down.* This even though the US Air Force as long ago as 2014 dubbed it the most serious challenger to its own fifth-gen JSF-35 Lightning-II. Regarding what the Su-35 can do consider the words of USAF pilots and aviation specialists, whose statements are reproduced from a 2014 story published in the ‘National Interest’ (http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-russian-bear-roars-the-sky-beware-the-deadly-su-35-11799):
> 
> With, as the story says, the Su-35 launching its weapons from “high supersonic speeds around Mach 1.5 at altitudes greater than 45,000 ft”, and the “F-35 primarily operating in the 30,000-ft range at speeds around Mach 0.9”, the Russian air-superiority fighter’s “major advantages are its combination of high altitude capability and blistering speed—which allow the fighter to impart the maximum possible amount of launch energy to its arsenal of long-range air-to-air missiles.” Or as an USAF officer put it, “The Su’s ability to go high and fast is a big concern, including for F-35”.
> 
> The Su-35 builds on the already potent Su-27 Flanker airframe, superior to the F-15 Eagle, and “adds a lighter airframe, three-dimensional thrust vectoring, advanced avionics and a powerful jamming capability.” As as an USAF pilot says “Large powerful engines, the ability to supercruise for a long time and very good avionics make this a tough platform…It’s considered a fourth gen plus-plus, as in it has more inherent capability on the aircraft [and] possesses a passive [electronically-scanned array and it] has a big off boresight capability and a very good jamming suite.” The addition of the electronic attack (EA) capability, according to the story, “complicates matters for Western fighters because the Su-35’s advanced digital radio frequency memory jammers can seriously degrade the performance of friendly radars. It also effectively blinds the onboard radars found onboard American-made air-to-air missiles like the AIM-120 AMRAAM.
> 
> But even the addition of AESA radars does not really solve the problem for F-35. “We—the U.S. Department of Defense—haven’t been pursuing appropriate methods to counter EA for years,” per a senior Air Force official with experience on the F-22 Raptor. “So, while we are stealthy, we will have a hard time working our way through the EA to target the Su-35s and our missiles will have a hard time killing them.”
> 
> The Su-35 also carries a potent infrared search and track capability that could pose a problem for Western fighters. “It also has non-EM [electro-magnetic] sensors to help it detect other aircraft, which could be useful in long-range detection,” a Super Hornet pilot said.
> 
> Another of the Su-35’s major advantages: “One thing I really like about the Su-35 is that it is a high-end truck: It can carry a ton of air-to-air ordnance into a fight,” a US Navy pilot said.
> 
> That’s the sort of trouble the US F-35 — an aircraft a full half-gen ahead of Rafale will confront going up against an ostensibly 4.5 gen (but surely 4.75 gen) Su-35s, the Chinese Air Force (PLAAF) is acquiring on a priority basis. So what chance will the Rafale stand against the PLAAF Su-35s? And, remember, India will not have the full complement of 36 Rafales until the mid- to late-2020s by when the PLAAF will have transitioned fully into the 4.75-gen Su-35 and its own 5th-gen Chengdu J-20 and the Shenyang J-31. Great strategic forethought and force planning IAF!
> 
> So some Qs about the Rafale:
> 
> 1) How does IAF reconcile its stress on the dogfighting capability of its fighters with its reliance on BVR 100 km range AAM Meteor, while falling in with the French and against arming the Rafale with the indigenous more advanced version of the lightweight Brahmos ALCM? So, when it comes to French aircraft, it is willing to overlook its institutional bias? * (Meteor AAM versus Brahmos NG ALCM Air to Surface or Ship )*
> 
> 2) Lacking numbers and in the “best case” context, no more than 23 Rafales will realistically be available to IAF at any given moment in time. How will these 23 be deployed, if in concentration — will they be enough to defeat the more numerous and swarming PAF or PLAAF aircraft, and if singly — again quantity pitches in against supposed quality (but for how long?) — so what use will these be in single sorties? (*63% availability  single sorties )*
> 
> 3) It is a recipe, of course, for the Rafales being safely quartered, held away from harm’s way in war — considering they are simply too expensive to lose. So, another useless showpiece in the inventory? Like the EMALs-equipped Indian super-aircraft carrier? *show piece  *
> 
> 4) Because there’s virtually no commonality in spares and upkeep regimes and protocols between the Mirage 2000 and the Rafale, entirely new and more expensive servicing training and maintenance infrastructure will have to be built up at enormous cost. Because whether IAF buys 6 Rafales, or 36, the investment in this aspect is the same! And as I have argued it will result in IAF making the case in the future that with these sunk costs, IAF should be allowed to import 60 or 100 or whatever additional number of Rafales the IAF brass of the day feels comfortable touting. That’s the strategy for upping the Rafale numbers is it not? *(is this something new? )*
> 
> 5) Dassault/France will milk recurring profits (to reach the $40 billion figure) from stocking the above infrastructure with the spares and service support, and from untried and untested ordnance, such as the Meteor, each costing, what, US$2 million each. That’s the French profit plan and the lifeline0 to keep alive its industrial combat aviation capability. And IAF pays for this long term economic security of Dassault and France? rofl:  )
> 
> To repeat the quip by the great American comedian, WC Fields — suckers never get an even break.
> 
> https://bharatkarnad.com/2016/09/15/white-elephant-rafale-and-missed-opportunity-with-su-35/
> +++
> *Look at the heart burn
> 
> He is more of a whacked version of ajai shulka
> *
> @anant_s @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @Armani @GuardianRED @others


Has anyone found his marbles?? Seriously? 

Su 35 for a MMRCA , seriously? Someone should hint at the Super Su30 Program to him!

Eurofighter no one wants??? Eight Countries are either inducting / ordering them! and there are still 200+ frames to be added!

I want what he is smoking! - Some powerful stuff!



PARIKRAMA said:


> this is for all.. courtesy Shiv Aroor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ignore the tri color in the tail fin. it got mirrored
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/776463557789491200
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @hellfire @ranjeet @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @R!CK @zebra7 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others


The Fin Flash is correct , the Roudels are overkill (amd big)

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## ZedZeeshan

randomradio said:


> We are expecting 50% ToT. So the airframe and the engine will see 100% production in India.
> 
> 
> 
> All jets by 2019.


Delivery time is good..2019 not bad at all...just another 2.5 years to wait..

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## SrNair

Vergennes said:


> BREAKING NEWS ; Coming the first footage from the anti Rafale comittee office after the announcement of the signature on the 23rd.
> The authorities are fearing more people could jump.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Nilgiri @PARIKRAMA @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Abingdonboy @Fireurimagination @GuardianRED @R!CK @ranjeet @Levina @SmilingBuddha @hellfire @anant_s @SrNair @SarthakGanguly etc.



Lol that was funny 

On topic :IAF was almost seduced by the beauty of that Rafale beast just after MMRCA competition

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## migflug

PARIKRAMA said:


> this is for all.. courtesy Shiv Aroor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ignore the tri color in the tail fin. it got mirrored
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/776463557789491200
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @hellfire @ranjeet @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @R!CK @zebra7 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others



it looks like a twin seater

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## R!CK

randomradio said:


> We are expecting 50% ToT. So the airframe and the engine will see 100% production in India.
> 
> All jets by 2019.



Don't expect more than 3-6 rafales in 2018, but order might be concluded by 2020. Egypt order has a clause that additional aircraft will be ordered only after delivery execution of first tranche of 24 jets. Dassault is expecting to complete order by late 2017-early 2018. First Qatar aircraft slated for delivery by late 2017-early 2018 aswell.

Good Day!

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## Hellfire

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Ignore the tri color in the tail fin. it got mirrored*



I refuse

It is correct

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## randomradio

ZedZeeshan said:


> Delivery time is good..2019 not bad at all...just another 2.5 years to wait..



It was supposed to have been only a 2 year delivery timetable after signature, but the French said they can't expand that fast.

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## PARIKRAMA

hellfire said:


> I refuse
> 
> It is correct



The anticlock wise finflash caught me again (vertical stripes rotated anticlockwise and mirrored)

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## randomradio

R!CK said:


> Don't expect more than 3-6 rafales in 2018, but order might be concluded by 2020. Egypt order has a clause that additional aircraft will be ordered only after delivery execution of first tranche of 24 jets. Dassault is expecting to complete order by late 2017-early 2018. First Qatar aircraft slated for delivery by late 2017-early 2018 aswell.
> 
> Good Day!



Dassault will expand to 3 jets per month (minus August) with the IAF order. It was 2 jets without the Indian order.

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## Hellfire

PARIKRAMA said:


> The anticlock wise finflash caught me again (vertical stripes rotated anticlockwise and mirrored)



Painted as such ... do a head stand and see ....... lol like reverse ambulance

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## SrNair

So meteor missile is also a part in this deal .
Now the picture is almost clear .36 Rafale with meteor package will fully based in NE sector right under the nose of Himalaya and Chinese border . @Vergennes

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## R!CK

randomradio said:


> Dassault will expand to 3 jets per month (minus August) with the IAF order. It was 2 jets without the Indian order.



I'm picking up some data. Will post it today or tomorrow unless someone beats me to it. The delivery plan has been already planned prior to today's news. Dassault had to provide the delivery timelines before the deal was concluded, which is atleast 2-3 months before this month.

P.S: A rate increase from 22 to 33 is expected to occur on 2018. Rate will drop this year and will rise up next year but still short of the 33/year target.

Good Day!

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## proud indian94

So the moment has arrived finally ,for which i have been waiting since years.


Abhi to party shuru hui hai.

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## Hephaestus

PARIKRAMA said:


> The Eurofighter was finding it difficult to find traction even within its primary market — the four main countries forming the EADS consortium that produced it, the plane being dismissed by the cognoscenti as something “Germany doesn’t want, Britain can’t afford, and Spain and Italy neither want nor can afford!”. [B]And, mind you, this ‘Typhoon’ had virtues the Rafale doesn’t, especially in terms of its potential for future development as a weapons platform with its modular structure and engineering aspects (which, by the way, EADS has foresworn because of the financial unviability of a genuinely 5th generation fighter project). :o::o::o:[/B]



This really cracked me up & that Meteor vs Brahmos NG also. :smokin

Sept 23 :yahoo:
[URL]http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-to-pay-7-87-billion-euros-for-36-rafale-fighters-1459175?pfrom=home-lateststories[/URL]

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## Echo_419

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Abingdonboy
> This is specially for you. Our lovely Dr had spoken
> 
> +++
> *White elephant — Rafale, and missed opportunity with Su-35*
> Posted on September 15, 2016by Bharat Karnad
> 
> The phrase ‘White elephant’ refers to an acquisition exorbitantly costly to buy, run, and upkeep and is derived from the story of a rare pachyderm that was acquired by the Thai court as a symbol of its Hindu power and religiosity and ended up beggaring that kingdom.
> 
> *The 36 Rafales that the Narendra Modi regime is obtaining for the Indian Air Force are, collectively, the white elephant whose costs will sink India’s military power because there’ll be no monies left over after the full program costs (with steeply rising value of the euro) of US$30-$40 billion are borne by the luckless Indian taxpayer, to fund any other major military procurement for the next decade or so. *
> 
> The Modi PMO is readying the cabinet note for approval of this buy by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), which is a formality. With nobody of political weight among his colleagues to question the PM’s choice, CCS’ OK is a foregone conclusion. This is generally what happens anyway when a military hardware selection process gets to this stage. There’s no instance, as far as I can recall, where CCS has come up with a nyet.
> 
> This reduction of CCS to a rubber stamp is an attribute of the Westminister model of government the Constituent Assembly chose without pondering the practical consequences for the country and which the ex-colonial power, Britain, incidentally, long ago trashed as inappropriate for a time when there’s lots more and revealing information available to any concerned legislators for the asking to enable informed decisionmaking.
> 
> In the IAF’s medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) sweepstakes, the Rafale was shortlisted along with the Eurofighter — Typhoon, and *won the race not for any technological or operational edge it provided, but because the French have been more diligent in nursing and nurturing a “support system” over the years that seamlessly servicing strategically placed personnel in the military procurement loop and within the Indian political class, Indian armed services, and Ministry of Defence (MOD), so when it comes to pushing their wares, the French items invariably come out on tops. After all, we Indians are only human and who can resist bank accounts full of euros, employment of close relatives in French transnational corporations in Europe, and crowned by repeated trips to, where else, Paris — ooh la la?   *
> 
> India’s national interest, in the event, cannot compete with the inducements France can so effortlessly summon. So India is the usual Third World state ripe for Paris’ (and, generally, West’s) pickings, whatever the political dispensation in New Delhi.
> 
> The Eurofighter was finding it difficult to find traction even within its primary market — the four main countries forming the EADS consortium that produced it, the plane being dismissed by the cognoscenti as something “Germany doesn’t want, Britain can’t afford, and Spain and Italy neither want nor can afford!”. *And, mind you, this ‘Typhoon’ had virtues the Rafale doesn’t, especially in terms of its potential for future development as a weapons platform with its modular structure and engineering aspects (which, by the way, EADS has foresworn because of the financial unviability of a genuinely 5th generation fighter project). *
> 
> If the Eurofighter lost out because of minimal price differential (*and EADS’s lack in Delhi of the French-type “support system” owing to the more straight-laced dealings by Germany, the lead player),* *the more economical Russian Su-35 was summarily rejected for no good reason at all. Even as earlier the request for this aircraft by the Strategic Forces Command for manned delivery of nuclear weapons was also turned down.* This even though the US Air Force as long ago as 2014 dubbed it the most serious challenger to its own fifth-gen JSF-35 Lightning-II. Regarding what the Su-35 can do consider the words of USAF pilots and aviation specialists, whose statements are reproduced from a 2014 story published in the ‘National Interest’ (http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-russian-bear-roars-the-sky-beware-the-deadly-su-35-11799):
> 
> With, as the story says, the Su-35 launching its weapons from “high supersonic speeds around Mach 1.5 at altitudes greater than 45,000 ft”, and the “F-35 primarily operating in the 30,000-ft range at speeds around Mach 0.9”, the Russian air-superiority fighter’s “major advantages are its combination of high altitude capability and blistering speed—which allow the fighter to impart the maximum possible amount of launch energy to its arsenal of long-range air-to-air missiles.” Or as an USAF officer put it, “The Su’s ability to go high and fast is a big concern, including for F-35”.
> 
> The Su-35 builds on the already potent Su-27 Flanker airframe, superior to the F-15 Eagle, and “adds a lighter airframe, three-dimensional thrust vectoring, advanced avionics and a powerful jamming capability.” As as an USAF pilot says “Large powerful engines, the ability to supercruise for a long time and very good avionics make this a tough platform…It’s considered a fourth gen plus-plus, as in it has more inherent capability on the aircraft [and] possesses a passive [electronically-scanned array and it] has a big off boresight capability and a very good jamming suite.” The addition of the electronic attack (EA) capability, according to the story, “complicates matters for Western fighters because the Su-35’s advanced digital radio frequency memory jammers can seriously degrade the performance of friendly radars. It also effectively blinds the onboard radars found onboard American-made air-to-air missiles like the AIM-120 AMRAAM.
> 
> But even the addition of AESA radars does not really solve the problem for F-35. “We—the U.S. Department of Defense—haven’t been pursuing appropriate methods to counter EA for years,” per a senior Air Force official with experience on the F-22 Raptor. “So, while we are stealthy, we will have a hard time working our way through the EA to target the Su-35s and our missiles will have a hard time killing them.”
> 
> The Su-35 also carries a potent infrared search and track capability that could pose a problem for Western fighters. “It also has non-EM [electro-magnetic] sensors to help it detect other aircraft, which could be useful in long-range detection,” a Super Hornet pilot said.
> 
> Another of the Su-35’s major advantages: “One thing I really like about the Su-35 is that it is a high-end truck: It can carry a ton of air-to-air ordnance into a fight,” a US Navy pilot said.
> 
> That’s the sort of trouble the US F-35 — an aircraft a full half-gen ahead of Rafale will confront going up against an ostensibly 4.5 gen (but surely 4.75 gen) Su-35s, the Chinese Air Force (PLAAF) is acquiring on a priority basis. So what chance will the Rafale stand against the PLAAF Su-35s? And, remember, India will not have the full complement of 36 Rafales until the mid- to late-2020s by when the PLAAF will have transitioned fully into the 4.75-gen Su-35 and its own 5th-gen Chengdu J-20 and the Shenyang J-31. Great strategic forethought and force planning IAF!
> 
> So some Qs about the Rafale:
> 
> 1) How does IAF reconcile its stress on the dogfighting capability of its fighters with its reliance on BVR 100 km range AAM Meteor, while falling in with the French and against arming the Rafale with the indigenous more advanced version of the lightweight Brahmos ALCM? So, when it comes to French aircraft, it is willing to overlook its institutional bias? * (Meteor AAM versus Brahmos NG ALCM Air to Surface or Ship )*
> 
> 2) Lacking numbers and in the “best case” context, no more than 23 Rafales will realistically be available to IAF at any given moment in time. How will these 23 be deployed, if in concentration — will they be enough to defeat the more numerous and swarming PAF or PLAAF aircraft, and if singly — again quantity pitches in against supposed quality (but for how long?) — so what use will these be in single sorties? (*63% availability  single sorties )*
> 
> 3) It is a recipe, of course, for the Rafales being safely quartered, held away from harm’s way in war — considering they are simply too expensive to lose. So, another useless showpiece in the inventory? Like the EMALs-equipped Indian super-aircraft carrier? *show piece  *
> 
> 4) Because there’s virtually no commonality in spares and upkeep regimes and protocols between the Mirage 2000 and the Rafale, entirely new and more expensive servicing training and maintenance infrastructure will have to be built up at enormous cost. Because whether IAF buys 6 Rafales, or 36, the investment in this aspect is the same! And as I have argued it will result in IAF making the case in the future that with these sunk costs, IAF should be allowed to import 60 or 100 or whatever additional number of Rafales the IAF brass of the day feels comfortable touting. That’s the strategy for upping the Rafale numbers is it not? *(is this something new? )*
> 
> 5) Dassault/France will milk recurring profits (to reach the $40 billion figure) from stocking the above infrastructure with the spares and service support, and from untried and untested ordnance, such as the Meteor, each costing, what, US$2 million each. That’s the French profit plan and the lifeline0 to keep alive its industrial combat aviation capability. And IAF pays for this long term economic security of Dassault and France? rofl:  )
> 
> To repeat the quip by the great American comedian, WC Fields — suckers never get an even break.
> 
> https://bharatkarnad.com/2016/09/15/white-elephant-rafale-and-missed-opportunity-with-su-35/
> +++
> *Look at the heart burn
> 
> He is more of a whacked version of ajai shulka
> *
> @anant_s @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @Armani @GuardianRED @others



is he high? also what's the deal with Ajay Shukla why is he so opposed to this deal?

@PRAIKRAMA what are the Industrial benefits of Rafael? and do you have a link on how Rafael compares with the rest of MMRCA competitors?

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## The_Sidewinder

Finally wait is over. Phew. I was a school going kid when the whole saga started, now I am responsible citizen of this country 
lets party :party:

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> All jets by 2019.


Not possible. Absolutely not possible I'm afraid.
Don't forget Egypt and Qatar (quatar : 11 plane by year by 2018...)



randomradio said:


> Dassault will expand to 3 jets per month (minus August) with the IAF order. It was 2 jets without the Indian order.


Not sure.
I heard instead that the Indian order may reinforce the 2/month rate. 

The lead time of some items (engines, undercarriage...) is 3 years.

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## Hephaestus

BON PLAN said:


> Not possible. Absolutely not possible I'm afraid.
> Don't forget Egypt and Qatar (quatar : 11 plane by year by 2018...)


S'il vous plaît, we can't wait no more.

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## thesolar65

"Der aye durust aye"!!

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## PARIKRAMA

Echo_419 said:


> is he high? also what's the deal with Ajay Shukla why is he so opposed to this deal?
> 
> @PRAIKRAMA what are the Industrial benefits of Rafael? and do you have a link on how Rafael compares with the rest of MMRCA competitors?



From some old data. Most of the public data is from Ashley Tellis but thats highly biased towards American fighters and data is as on 2012 timeline.







Based on 2011-12 timeline Mr Ashley Tellis version






and costing





If you look at Rafale, here is few things













++++

Industrial Benefits is included under offset package. The details of the same will be out soon but primarily talks are 20% part sourcing from Indian local MIC and 30% invest in Military R&D projects in India like Kaveri Jet Engine. 
Also 16 critical technologies are fully shared with us.
All this will be known in coming days or else will write it here in suitable time. But you can guess some include Radar, Spectra, RAM, Stealth aerodynamics research, etc etc
The biggest benefit comes under the bigger deal for MII and the French side participation in black projects.
One key thing not said much is access to megajoule project allowing us to simulate and adopt next generation warheads for strategic purposes. Of course this wont be covered much nor revealed.

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## ni8mare

NEW DELHI: More than a decade after India decided to purchase a new line of fighter aircraft, it is now official. On September 23rd, India will sign a deal for 36 Rafale fighters with France for about 7.87 billion Euros, sources have told NDTV.

Along with the 36 fighters, India will also get spares and weaponry, including the Meteor missile, considered among the most advanced in the world.

Of the 7.87 billion Euros, about 50 per cent will be covered under offset, which means either France will reinvest this amount in India or source equipment of this value from India.

French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will be in India for the signing of the deal.

An Inter-Governmental Agreement between India and France allows for a follow on order of Rafale fighters with a 10 per cent cost escalation. The government claims that it has brought down the price by about 600 million Euros from the initial demand.

The deal could not be signed this January when French President Francois Hollande was the Chief Guest for the Republic Day because India wanted a better price.

Negotiations went on till 2 am on January 26, but an agreement on price could not be reached then. India and France agreed to sign a general agreement without naming the price.


For the Indian Air Force, the deal is bitter-sweet. On one hand, they will be getting two squadrons of the state-of-the-art fighter, on the other hand, the original requirement was for at least 126 jets.

India needs at least 42 squadrons of fighters and has an existing strength of 32. The fighter fleet will go down further by about 10 squadrons as the MiG-21 fighter will have to be decommissioned.

The new fighters will begin entering service in 2019.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indi...ale-fighters-1459175?pfrom=home-lateststories

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## cloud4000

India really needs to streamline its procurement process for defense equipment.. It wouldn't be surprising if the French were having heartburn because India is taking its sweet time. I'm sure this would make a good joke for Russell Peters.

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## Ali Zadi

What about MII?

Also why is follow on order so important if MII is an active interest?

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## R!CK

BON PLAN said:


> Not possible. Absolutely not possible I'm afraid.
> Don't forget Egypt and Qatar (quatar : 11 plane by year by 2018...)
> 
> 
> Not sure.
> I heard instead that the Indian order may reinforce the 2/month rate.
> 
> The lead time of some items (engines, undercarriage...) is 3 years.



The Production output was 8 jets in 2015, against the capacity of 11/year. This is mainly due to 3 units being reconfigured for Egypt from Fr AF standard.

Order Backlog 2014: France(43) 

*2015 Total - 8 units*

*2015 - First Half*
1 unit for France
3 units for Egypt

*2015 - First Half*
4 units for France​
Order Backlog 2015: France(38) Egypt(21) Qatar (24)

*2016 Total - 9 units*

*2016 - First Half*
3 units for Egypt (2015 airframe)
4 units for France

*2016 - Second Half*
2 units for France​P.S: Only 6 new airframes built. Line to undergo preparation for production ramp-up 2017

Order Backlog 2016: France(32) Egypt(18) Qatar (24)







*2017
*
1 unit for France
3 units for Egypt​ Line up-gradation to continue. Qatar standard to complete testing. Indian standard to begin testing.

_Source: *http://www.dassault-aviation.tv/first_half_year_2016_results-1416-en.html* and multiple official documents._

Order Backlog 2017: France(31) Egypt(15) Qatar (24)

*2018*

*22-33 units/year proposed*​
6-9 units for Egypt?
3-6 units for Qatar?
3-6 units for India?
3-9 units for France?​*2019
*
*33 units/year
*
9-12 units for Egypt (Completion of Tranche1)
9-12 units for Qatar?
6-12 units for India?
3-6 units for France?​
*2020*

*33 units/year*​
6-12 units for Qatar? (Completion of Order)
12-15 units for India?
6-12 units for France?​
Personally France might continue to receive 3 units/year until Egypt Tranche 1 is completed. Qatar contract has an agreed timeline of 2018-20 for 24 units. Indian order might be executed over 2018-20/21 time frame. 

_Disclaimer: Not speaking from family source background, data compiled from multiple official sources. Feel free to ignore if wrong._
​Good Day all!

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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> Not possible. Absolutely not possible I'm afraid.
> Don't forget Egypt and Qatar (quatar : 11 plane by year by 2018...)
> 
> 
> Not sure.
> I heard instead that the Indian order may reinforce the 2/month rate.
> 
> The lead time of some items (engines, undercarriage...) is 3 years.



We will get all the jets by 2019.

Trappier said last year that Dassault has already started increasing production rate.
http://in.reuters.com/article/dassault-rafale-idINFWN10003E20150720

The earlier plan was to double production with Indian orders, but Qatar signed before India. So Dassault has no choice but to triple production. And then there's a potential IN order also.



R!CK said:


> I'm picking up some data. Will post it today or tomorrow unless someone beats me to it. The delivery plan has been already planned prior to today's news. Dassault had to provide the delivery timelines before the deal was concluded, which is atleast 2-3 months before this month.
> 
> P.S: A rate increase from 22 to 33 is expected to occur on 2018. Rate will drop this year and will rise up next year but still short of the 33/year target.
> 
> Good Day!



That's what I said.

3/month - August = 33 jets/month.

In 2016, Dassault will deliver 9 jets. 6 to France and 3 to Egypt.
In 2017, Dassault will deliver 4 jets. 1 to France, 3 to Egypt.
In 2018, Dassault will deliver up to 33 jets. 3 to Egypt, 11 to Qatar, 18 to India.
In 2019, 3 to Egypt, 11 to Qatar, 18 to India.



R!CK said:


> The Production output was 8 jets in 2015, against the capacity of 11/year. This is mainly due to 3 units being reconfigured for Egypt from Fr AF standard.
> 
> *2015 Total - 8 units*
> 
> *2015 - First Half*
> 1 unit for France
> 3 units for Egypt
> 
> *2015 - First Half*
> 4 units for France​
> *2016 Total - 9 units*
> 
> *2016 - First Half*
> 3 units for Egypt (2015 airframe)
> 4 units for France
> 
> *2016 - Second Half*
> 2 units for France​P.S: Only 6 new airframes built. Line to undergo preparation for production ramp-up 2017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *2017
> *
> 1 unit for France
> 3 units for Egypt​ Line up-gradation to continue. Qatar standard to complete testing. Indian standard to begin testing.
> 
> _Source: *http://www.dassault-aviation.tv/first_half_year_2016_results-1416-en.html* and multiple official documents._
> 
> *2018*
> 
> *22-33 units proposed*​
> 6-9 units for Egypt?
> 3-6 units for Qatar?
> 3-6 units for India?
> 3-9 units for France?​_Disclaimer: Not speaking from family source background, data compiled from multiple official sources. Feel free to ignore if wrong._
> ​Good Day all!



Nothing for France until after 2020.

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## Ali Zadi

PARIKRAMA said:


> One key thing not said much is access to megajoule project allowing us to simulate and adopt next generation warheads for strategic purposes. Of course this wont be covered much nor revealed.



Am positively frantic to know what those critical technologies are and LMJ would be very useful for materials studies and in fact other than warheads its been discussed as a way to get better efficiency from nuclear reactors. So in a way India might benefit in smaller size reactors which will pump out more energy while keeping the overall design more or less the same.

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## debspark90

GuardianRED said:


> Has anyone found his marbles?? Seriously?
> 
> Su 35 for a MMRCA , seriously? Someone should hint at the Super Su30 Program to him!
> 
> Eurofighter no one wants??? Eight Countries are either inducting / ordering them! and there are still 200+ frames to be added!
> 
> I want what he is smoking! - Some powerful stuff!
> 
> 
> The Fin Flash is correct , the Roudels are overkill (amd big)


Nope he is taking cheap Dendrite...

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## R!CK

randomradio said:


> We will get all the jets by 2019.
> 
> Trappier said last year that Dassault has already started increasing production rate.
> http://in.reuters.com/article/dassault-rafale-idINFWN10003E20150720
> 
> The earlier plan was to double production with Indian orders, but Qatar signed before India. So Dassault has no choice but to triple production. And then there's a potential IN order also.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I said.
> 
> 3/month - August = 33 jets/month.
> 
> In 2016, Dassault will deliver 9 jets. 6 to France and 3 to Egypt.
> In 2017, Dassault will deliver 4 jets. 1 to France, 3 to Egypt.
> In 2018, Dassault will deliver up to 33 jets. 3 to Egypt, 11 to Qatar, 18 to India.
> In 2019, 3 to Egypt, 11 to Qatar, 18 to India.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing for France until after 2020.



I'd be surprised if India accepts a full squadron of rafale each year. I guess I'll pray you are right.

Good Day!

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## randomradio

R!CK said:


> I guess I'll pray you are right.
> 
> Good Day!



The original timeframe was just 2 years, but France said they won't achieve that.

Anyway--
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-298#post-8564204


> That is what I said in january on another forum: all Rafales built in France delivered to India by end 2019/ very beginning 2020.



@BON PLAN ^^^

In fact it is possible it could be 16+16+4, but 18+18 is the one going around right now. Originally, it was supposed to be done by 2018-19.


This is information from June 2015 actually.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...s-on-rafale-sale-to-india-115061200010_1.html
*Trappier made it clear it would take at least three years to deliver 36 Rafales to the IAF, *given that Egypt and Qatar are ahead of India in the line to receive the fighter. Parrikar had stated on April 11 in Goa that theIAF would be delivered its fighters within two years.

Dassault's production rates make even three years seem an over-ambitious delivery target. Trappier says the current production of 11 Rafales per year for the Armee de l'Air (French Air Force) would be entirely diverted for export to Egypt and Qatar. *Deliveries to the Armee de l'Air are suspended till at least 2020.*

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## Abingdonboy

randomradio said:


> The original timeframe was just 2 years, but France said they won't achieve that.
> 
> Anyway--
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-298#post-8564204
> 
> 
> @BON PLAN ^^^
> 
> In fact it is possible it could be 16+16+4, but 18+18 is the one going around right now. Originally, it was supposed to be done by 2018-19.
> 
> 
> This is information from June 2015 actually.
> http://www.business-standard.com/ar...s-on-rafale-sale-to-india-115061200010_1.html
> *Trappier made it clear it would take at least three years to deliver 36 Rafales to the IAF, *given that Egypt and Qatar are ahead of India in the line to receive the fighter. Parrikar had stated on April 11 in Goa that theIAF would be delivered its fighters within two years.
> 
> Dassault's production rates make even three years seem an over-ambitious delivery target. Trappier says the current production of 11 Rafales per year for the Armee de l'Air (French Air Force) would be entirely diverted for export to Egypt and Qatar. *Deliveries to the Armee de l'Air are suspended till at least 2020.*


I know this article is over a year old but I wonder what the agreement will now be, 2 years for deliveries to commence ( as Parrikar has said above) or 3 years (as Tappier has said)? One would assume a compromise has been found, I wonder how much Parrikar has extracted on this front (if at all) or if the Indian side were even that fussed over a matter of 12 months? 

@PARIKRAMA

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> I know this article is over a year old but I wonder what the agreement will now be, 2 years for deliveries to commence ( as Parrikar has said above) or 3 years (as Tappier has said)? One would assume a compromise has been found, I wonder how much Parrikar has extracted on this front (if at all) or if the Indian side were even that fussed over a matter of 12 months?
> 
> @PARIKRAMA



We will naturally have to go by what Trappier says. And it's not 'commence' deliveries, it's 'finish' deliveries.

The delivery time frame is 3 years from date of signature. So by December 2019, we should have all 36, if we go by the French financial year. Or March 2020 if we go by the Indian one.

And IAF requirement is 1 squadron per year, even for MII.

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## Taygibay

nair said:


> Media is not that stupid,



That sentence makes no sense in at least two universes by personal experience. 



Spectre said:


> Why is customization so expensive? We would be anyway paying out of our pocket for the additional hardware. Me thinks it is matter of minor adjustments but then I am not the sharpest cookie in town
> 
> 1.4 B for 1 base? What are the details of the base? Just hardened concrete along with workshop? Spares are extra anyway



Bases will be built purposefully and with all equipment.
If India buys more Rafales, only the equipment will be needed.



Spectre said:


> If India wants it's own custom weapons loadout then why spend so much on weapons package



Because they are not coexistent in time. Custom comes later.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Its a loss for India and France if they cannot leverage this opportunity by making Rafale affordable and use this opportunity to build a even stronger India France relationship.



Yes, it would ( sadly, will most likely ) be.



Abingdonboy said:


> ro, the only #irony here is that Mr Shukla has the cheek to be so anti-Rafale when he has pushed for the F-35 and Gripen (fighters the IAF does not want) for years.



The IAF didn't refuse the F-35 TBH; it was never on offer to them..



randomradio said:


> There are standard specs and Indian-specific specs.
> 
> Under standard ones, it's for all Rafale clients, that's uprated engine, Spectra and radar upgrades, SATCOM, new materials for the airframe etc.



It's more complex than that. A new bomb has to be tested with the exact load it will be in.
There is no other way to know if say the fins of the MICA will spin due to the central Brahmos
expanding the underbelly airflow to the mid-wing, that sort of things. Each panaché ( mix ) in a 
config needs to be tested. And all foreign material has to be integrated as to SPECTRA or it just
won't work as well as on our birds. Every change costs a lot, for real ... pre-existing is cheaper.



Levina said:


> WHAT IS KSEPANASTRE?



The villain in the next James Bond, milady! 



BON PLAN said:


> No Meteor integration on Mirage 2000 ever studied.



For commercial reasons! It can only happen if a foreign M2000 user pays for it.



Vergennes said:


> As a french speaker,I can tell you,that no such words exist nor means anything in our language,forget about it. ;-)



You're not a French speaker ... I'm guessing Berrichon or patois Limousin. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> largest operator implies more than 286,



Sadly no, it implies more than 225 at the moment.



Indrajit said:


> Talk is free, money as far as I'm aware, is not.



Well, rial, dong and evemn the rupiah almost are, at least in comparison.



PARIKRAMA said:


> And, mind you, this ‘Typhoon’ had virtues the Rafale doesn’t, especially in terms of its potential for future development as a weapons platform



Of course, ours is finished for now though still evolving. Does one get points for a slower than expected program?



randomradio said:


> It was supposed to have been only a 2 year delivery timetable after signature, but the French said they can't expand that fast.



Not correct.



R!CK said:


> I'm picking up some data. Will post it today or tomorrow unless someone beats me to it. The delivery plan has been already planned prior to today's news. Dassault had to provide the delivery timelines before the deal was concluded, which is atleast 2-3 months before this month.
> 
> P.S: A rate increase from 22 to 33 is expected to occur on 2018. Rate will drop this year and will rise up next year but still short of the 33/year target.
> 
> Good Day!



More like it.



randomradio said:


> In 2016, Dassault will deliver 9 jets. 6 to France and 3 to Egypt.
> In 2017, Dassault will deliver 4 jets. 1 to France, 3 to Egypt.
> In 2018, Dassault will deliver up to 33 jets. 3 to Egypt, 11 to Qatar, 18 to India.
> In 2019, 3 to Egypt, 11 to Qatar, 18 to India.



Not possible. There will be no year without France getting an aircraft.

Read you all later, take care, Tay.

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Not possible. There will be no year without France getting an aircraft.



Trappier himself said France won't be taking deliveries. It's only 26 aircraft out of 66 (at 11 a year) for France for the 2014-2019 LPM.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/france-to-cut-back-on-rafale-order/article4982769.ece


> Normally speaking, if the current rhythm of delivery to the French military is maintained, Dassault should deliver 66 planes by 2019. But under the LPM announced by the minister on Friday, the French military will purchase only 26 aircraft during this period, creating a shortfall of €4 billion for Dassault.



France will receive all 26 jets by 2017--
2014 - 11
2015 - 8
2016 - 6
2017 - 1

Come 2018 and 2019, France will see zero deliveries. If you really want more, then you will have to place a new order.

So the 5th tranche will only happen from 2020, in the new LPM. In fact this is probably what @CNL-PN-AA has been referring to as the F3R2. In the meantime, you can upgrade your older aircraft to the F3R standard.

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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> The IAF didn't refuse the F-35 TBH; it was never on offer to them..


The F-35 was offered to India by the SCOTUS (not that Hilary Clinton is the most reliable source):

http://ipolitics.ca/2011/08/04/hill...35-as-the-u-s-deals-with-defence-budget-cuts/

Of course, India would have been compelled to sign an vast array of agreements and adhere to policies it would not be willing to do in a million years so it really does not ammount to much.

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## SR-91

7.87 Billion Euro Rafale Deal To Be Signed On September 23 Published September 15, 2016

More than a decade after India decided to purchase a new line of fighter aircraft, it is now official. On September 23rd, India will sign a deal for 36 Rafale fighters with France for about 7.87 billion Euros, sources have told NDTV. Along with the 36 fighters, India will also get spares and weaponry, including the Meteor missile, considered among the most advanced in the world.Of the 7.87 billion Euros, about 50 per cent will be covered under offset, which means either France will reinvest this amount in India or source equipment of this value from India. French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will be in India for the signing of the deal. An Inter-Governmental Agreement between India and France allows for a follow on order of Rafale fighters with a 10 per cent cost escalation. The government claims that it has brought down the price by about 600 million Euros from the initial demand. The deal could not be signed this January when French President Francois Hollande was the Chief Guest for the Republic Day because India wanted a better price. Negotiations went on till 2 am on January 26, but an agreement on price could not be reached then. India and France agreed to sign a general agreement without naming the price. For the Indian Air Force, the deal is bitter-sweet. On one hand, they will be getting two squadrons of the state-of-the-art fighter, on the other hand, the original requirement was for at least 126 jets. India needs at least 42 squadrons of fighters and has an existing strength of 32. The fighter fleet will go down further by about 10 squadrons as the MiG-21 fighter will have to be decommissioned. The new fighters will begin entering service in 2019.

ttp://idrw.org/7-87-billion-euro-rafale-deal-signed-september-23/ .

Here comes the butt hurt bloggers.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I was hoping they would hurry up with the signing already , after all we are all waiting for those design documents on the BBC

Nothing like waking up in the morning to fresh English biscuits , tea and the freshly printed manual , "How to build a Rafale!".

Going thru manuals is difficult ask , at least never can be achieved in a single sitting of morning tea. I do always recommend my peers ample amount of time. As each page promises to be an adventure. An adventure into the unknown world of French secret technology, leaked by Indians.

I am just thinking ahead , perhaps I could speed things up if I called in a few jolly friends from the office to help explain all these fancy pictures and diagrams.

If deal is signed up by September , I imagine we can expect the full leak by December? If the deal is signed early I could perhaps cancel plans for my December vacation. Just so that I can get that extra scoop on the first edition leaks.

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## jaiind

finally the rafale jets acquisition is about to conclude.!!!


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## dadeechi

Why did BJP pick 23rd instead of 26th?

Does BJP want RAFALEs to fail in favor of other Western offerings?


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## Dil Pakistan

Isn't it amazing, in the time that India has merely managed to sign a deal; China and Pakistan have managed to *design*, *produce*, *test* and reach the *production of block-II phase* of a *completely* *new fighter jet*.........and by the time the deliveries of Rafales will start, Block-III will be round the corner....I think this deal does not have the same benefit for India as would have been 10-years ago...

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## jaiind

Dil Pakistan said:


> Isn't it amazing, in the time that India has merely managed to sign a deal; China and Pakistan have managed to *design*, *produce*, *test* and reach the *production of block-II phase* of a *completely* *new fighter jet*.........and by the time the deliveries of Rafales will start, Block-III will be round the corner....I think this deal does not have the same benefit for India as would have been 10-years ago...


stop comparing mango with oranges

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## shree835

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I was hoping they would hurry up with the signing already , after all we are all waiting for those design documents on the BBC
> 
> Nothing like waking up in the morning to fresh English biscuits , tea and the freshly printed manual , "How to build a Rafale!".
> 
> Going thru manuals is difficult ask , at least never can be achieved in a single sitting of morning tea. I do always recommend my peers ample amount of time. As each page promises to be an adventure. An adventure into the unknown world of French secret technology, leaked by Indians.
> 
> I am just thinking ahead , perhaps I could speed things up if I called in a few jolly friends from the office to help explain all these fancy pictures and diagrams.
> 
> If deal is signed up by September , I imagine we can expect the full leak by December? If the deal is signed early I could perhaps cancel plans for my December vacation. Just so that I can get that extra scoop on the first edition leaks.

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## Kal Muah

Dil Pakistan said:


> Isn't it amazing, in the time that India has merely managed to sign a deal; China and Pakistan have managed to *design*, *produce*, *test* and reach the *production of block-II phase* of a *completely* *new fighter jet*.........and by the time the deliveries of Rafales will start, Block-III will be round the corner....I think this deal does not have the same benefit for India as would have been 10-years ago...


Truly amazing. What's more amazing is you have joined PDF in 2009, and this piece of art is coming from you

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## Dil Pakistan

jaiind said:


> stop comparing mango with oranges



I am not comparing Mangoes with Oranges........rather...I am comparing Brain Fart with Smartness.....



Kal Muah said:


> Truly amazing. What's more amazing is you have joined PDF in 2009, and this piece of art is coming from you



.....your message carries the hint that you have accepted my argument...

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## SR-91

As India and France get set to sign a Euro 7.87 billion contact for 36 French Rafale fighters, details are emerging on a previously undisclosed part of the deal, which will see India acquiring the Meteor, arguably the world’s most advanced air-to-air missile. Sources tracking the final negotiations have confirmed to NDTV that the IAF’s Rafales will come equipped with the Meteor designed to knock out enemy aircraft and cruise missiles significantly more than 100 km away.The acquisition of this weapon is likely to be game changer in South Asia. Neither Pakistan nor China, India’s traditional military adversaries, possess a weapon of the same class. The only other air-to-air missile as capable as the Meteor is the AIM-120D, the latest variant of the US Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile which is also designed to hit targets more than 100 km away. Analysts, however, point out that the Meteor is likely to be significantly more capable because of its ramjet engine. According to War is Boring, a leading international website that explores high technology weapons systems, “A conventional solid-fuel booster accelerates the Meteor after launch, like most air-to-air missiles. But while roaring through the air, the missile opens up a chute, allowing air to rush into the engine, which heats up the oxygen and propels the supersonic missile to Mach 4 (four times the speed of sound).” Engineers from the European firm MBDA, which builds the missile, have reportedly claimed that the Meteor has a “no escape zone” three times larger than that of the AIM 120D AMRAAM missile. According to War is Boring, “the no-escape zone is an aerial combat term for a cone-shaped area determined by the missile’s capabilities — from where a targeted aircraft cannot escape solely using its own manoeuverability.” To survive the no escape zone, a fighter jet has to be able to jam the seeker of the incoming missile or deceive it by firing chaff, strips of metal foil released in the air to obstruct radar detection. At the moment, India and France are finalising details of the Inter-governmental agreement on India’s acquisition of the Rafale. A French team, currently in Delhi, is reviewing the contract which runs into several thousand pages. Once this document is firmed up, the file goes back to the Cabinet Committee on Security for final approval, which, at this stage, is likely to be a formality. Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would be acquiring 36 Rafale fighter jets from France in an off-the-shelf purchase when he visited France in April last year. Deliveries of the fighter are likely to begin in 2019. Sharp differences between Indian and French price negotiators meant that neither side was able to achieve a breakthrough till now.

....tp://idrw.org/with-rafale-a-game-changer-missile-that-puts-india-ahead-of-china-exclusive/

Meteor is undoubtedly the best air to air missile, but just that isn't enough to counter China. Chinese believe in mass numbers not so much on quality. Their response will always be to overwhelm defences. That's always been their strategy. 
To countèr china and pakistan, India requires high quality and needs decent numbers.

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## shree835

dadeechi said:


> Why did BJP pick 23rd instead of 26th?
> 
> Does BJP want RAFALEs to fail in favor of other Western offerings?


Please help me to understand...What does it make difference ...?? 23rd or 26th...???

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## Genesis

lol at that last line.

I was really hopping this won't get posted here. Saw it on reddit. This is a defense forum, the members should be more informed than the average reddit user.

BTW, can we just ban all content by idrw, we did ban that Taiwan source I think, forgot the name it's been so long, that's been putting out amateur articles like this one.

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## dadeechi

shree835 said:


> Please help me to understand...What does it make difference ...?? 23rd or 26th...???



23rd is not an auspicious day. They could have easily selected 25th or 26th instead. I am surprised that BJP has selected it. It cannot be a case of oversight from a Hindu leaning party like BJP and seems to be intentional.

If RAFALE deal is signed 23rd I foresee that RAFALEs would be akin to cursed astras in the hands of Karna.

Very unfortunate after such a long wait.... All hope in RAFALEs is now dead on arrival.


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## Mrc

The source of this news is a defence official who does not wants to be named..

If you check google news, you will see reuters repprting which concedes such internally "sourced" news has been leaked many times before but nothing happened...

Lets see ... 21st is not far...

I really hope this news is true

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## Ankit Kumar 002

@waz @WAJsal @Oscar @PARIKRAMA 
Please combine this with the sticky thread.

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## el che

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I was hoping they would hurry up with the signing already , after all we are all waiting for those design documents on the BBC
> 
> Nothing like waking up in the morning to fresh English biscuits , tea and the freshly printed manual , "How to build a Rafale!".
> 
> Going thru manuals is difficult ask , at least never can be achieved in a single sitting of morning tea. I do always recommend my peers ample amount of time. As each page promises to be an adventure. An adventure into the unknown world of French secret technology, leaked by Indians.
> 
> I am just thinking ahead , perhaps I could speed things up if I called in a few jolly friends from the office to help explain all these fancy pictures and diagrams.
> 
> If deal is signed up by September , I imagine we can expect the full leak by December? If the deal is signed early I could perhaps cancel plans for my December vacation. Just so that I can get that extra scoop on the first edition leaks.


Good. You should start with moped, car and railway engines with morning tea. You should rescue your railways which are losing imported locomotives. CPEC will bring rafale production in Pakistan and France has also requested for CPEC membership.

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## monitor

Dil Pakistan said:


> Isn't it amazing, in the time that India has merely managed to sign a deal; China and Pakistan have managed to *design*, *produce*, *test* and reach the *production of block-II phase* of a *completely* *new fighter jet*.........and by the time the deliveries of Rafales will start, Block-III will be round the corner....I think this deal does not have the same benefit for India as would have been 10-years ago...




Comparing a fourth generation fighter with Rafale is stupidity. You have forgotten by the time JF-17 block III arrive France will also bring more advance version of already deadly Rafale F3R2.so India will have the advantage unless you can induct more advance something.

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## Kal Muah

dadeechi said:


> 23rd is not an auspicious day. They could have easily selected 25th or 26th instead. I am surprised that BJP has selected it. It cannot be a case of oversight from a Hindu leaning party like BJP and seems to be intentional.
> 
> If RAFALE deal is signed 23rd I foresee that RAFALEs would be akin to cursed astras in the hands of Karna.
> 
> Very unfortunate after such a long wait.... All hope in RAFALEs is now dead on arrival.


Wrong Modi is a cunning Hindu, baniya who wants to spread hinduism all over the world secretly, even through this deals. Don't get it? Lemme show you.
The date selected is 23.
Now, what is 2x3? its 6.
Number of Rafales India is buying? 36. Also a multiple of 6.
R-A-F-A-L-E has also 6 words in it.
Now Modi wants to even the deal with French Pm holande. Focus on the word EVEN.Also India brought the _LOWEST_ number of rafales.
So, whats the lowest even multiple of 6? its 2. Its important you remember this number.
Now see the overall picture.
23, is nothing but separate number 2 and 3, which if rearranged will form into something like this.
Excuse my drawing.





Remember number 2 and I told you its important. Yes, 2 according to the vedic numerolgy is the number for *MOON.*
Now guess what the complete picture if properly redrawn looks like?
Again, do excuse my drawing.




Hell ya, its a symbol of* AUM*.
See, how Modi manipulated the entire deal into spreading hinduism all over the world?

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## dadeechi

Kal Muah said:


> Wrong Modi is a cunning Hindu, baniya who wants to spread hinduism all over the world secretly, even through this deals. Don't get it? Lemme show you.
> The date selected is 23.
> Now, what is 2x3? its 6.
> Number of Rafales India is buying? 36. Also a multiple of 6.
> R-A-F-A-L-E has also 6 words in it.
> Now Modi wants to even the deal with French Pm holande. Focus on the word EVEN.Also India brought the _LOWEST_ number of rafales.
> So, whats the lowest even multiple of 6? its 2. Its important you remember this number.
> Now see the overall picture.
> 23, is nothing but separate number 2 and 3, which if rearranged will form into something like this.
> Excuse my drawing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember number 2 and I told you its important. Yes, 2 according to the vedic numerolgy is the number for *MOON.*
> Now guess what the complete picture if properly redrawn looks like?
> Again, do excuse my drawing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hell ya, its a symbol of* AUM*.
> See, how Modi manipulated the entire deal into spreading hinduism all over the world?



Very nice ...

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## Indrajit

Kal Muah said:


> Wrong Modi is a cunning Hindu, baniya who wants to spread hinduism all over the world secretly, even through this deals. Don't get it? Lemme show you.
> The date selected is 23.
> Now, what is 2x3? its 6.
> Number of Rafales India is buying? 36. Also a multiple of 6.
> R-A-F-A-L-E has also 6 words in it.
> Now Modi wants to even the deal with French Pm holande. Focus on the word EVEN.Also India brought the _LOWEST_ number of rafales.
> So, whats the lowest even multiple of 6? its 2. Its important you remember this number.
> Now see the overall picture.
> 23, is nothing but separate number 2 and 3, which if rearranged will form into something like this.
> Excuse my drawing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember number 2 and I told you its important. Yes, 2 according to the vedic numerolgy is the number for *MOON.*
> Now guess what the complete picture if properly redrawn looks like?
> Again, do excuse my drawing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hell ya, its a symbol of* AUM*.
> See, how Modi manipulated the entire deal into spreading hinduism all over the world?



That's real funny. Smart & funny.

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## kaykay

Dil Pakistan said:


> Isn't it amazing, in the time that India has merely managed to sign a deal; China and Pakistan have managed to *design*, *produce*, *test* and reach the *production of block-II phase* of a *completely* *new fighter jet*.........and by the time the deliveries of Rafales will start, Block-III will be round the corner....I think this deal does not have the same benefit for India as would have been 10-years ago...


So you are comparing Rafale with JF-17. Anyway how many aircrafts did you Inducted in last 10-12 years? India Inducted 200+ Su-30MKIs. Its not like we were sitting idle with or without Rafale.

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## shree835

Kal Muah said:


> Wrong Modi is a cunning Hindu, baniya who wants to spread hinduism all over the world secretly, even through this deals. Don't get it? Lemme show you.
> The date selected is 23.
> Now, what is 2x3? its 6.
> Number of Rafales India is buying? 36. Also a multiple of 6.
> R-A-F-A-L-E has also 6 words in it.
> Now Modi wants to even the deal with French Pm holande. Focus on the word EVEN.Also India brought the _LOWEST_ number of rafales.
> So, whats the lowest even multiple of 6? its 2. Its important you remember this number.
> Now see the overall picture.
> 23, is nothing but separate number 2 and 3, which if rearranged will form into something like this.
> Excuse my drawing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember number 2 and I told you its important. Yes, 2 according to the vedic numerolgy is the number for *MOON.*
> Now guess what the complete picture if properly redrawn looks like?
> Again, do excuse my drawing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hell ya, its a symbol of* AUM*.
> See, how Modi manipulated the entire deal into spreading hinduism all over the world?



Nothing new in this ...many Indian used to do such type of calculation for some important activity ...Even I believe...One more point would like to add here...number 9 is very important ...So ..36 Rafale India is going to order ... 3+6=9.... rest follow on order will be 90...99 or 101...An Example....
*India orders 99 GE F414 engines for Tejas fighter jet *

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## Kal Muah

shree835 said:


> Nothing new in this ...many Indian used to do such type of calculation for some important activity ...Even I believe...One more point would like to add here...number 9 is very important ...So ..36 Rafale India is going to order ... 3+6=9.... rest follow on order will be 90...99 or 101...


I agree with you Senpai

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## migflug

*French Defence Minister arriving to ink Rafale deal*





DINAKAR PERI
COMMENT · PRINT · T T 
3





Reuters







TOPICS
*defence*
*military equipment*

*politics*
*defence*
*India and France held several rounds of tough negotiations after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the decision for direct purchase of 36 Rafale jets.*


*French Defence Minister Jean Yves Le Drian is likely to visit India next week to conclude the Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) between India and France for the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets, bringing to an end the 17-month-long negotiations.*



_Mr. Drian is expected in Delhi on September 23 to conclude the IGA, official sources said on Thursday._



Official sources had earlier said that the draft of the IGA was being finalised after which it would go to the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) for a formal clearance.





*Tough negotiations*



India and France held several rounds of tough negotiations after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the decision for direct purchase of as many as 36 Rafale jets in fly away condition in April 2014.



The final deal is expected to cost about Euro 7.87 billion translating to over Rs. 55,000 crore depending on the currency fixation in the contract.



The aircraft will be slightly customised as per the requirements of the Indian Air Force (IAF) and deliveries will begin in 2019 with sovereign guarantee by French government.

Rafale was originally selected under the Medium Multi-Role combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contest for 126 aircraft but the tender was subsequently withdrawn with no resolution in sight.

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## satishkumarcsc

Dil Pakistan said:


> Isn't it amazing, in the time that India has merely managed to sign a deal; China and Pakistan have managed to *design*, *produce*, *test* and reach the *production of block-II phase* of a *completely* *new fighter jet*.........and by the time the deliveries of Rafales will start, Block-III will be round the corner....I think this deal does not have the same benefit for India as would have been 10-years ago...



Well JF 17 is a great achievement of Pakistan along with the help of China, I am not taking that away from you. It is a very good fighter capable of BVR and smart munitions and above all it is sanction free. But the problem with India is it is not a valid fighter in the present scenario that we are in. We need a fighter that has the reach and can execute more missions with longer time on air. The JF 17 suits Pakistan because of the smaller size of the country and can reach anywhere quickly..but India being a large country we need a mix of fighters to have the reach. We also have a large area in the Arabian sea and Indian Ocean to Patrol and police.

A fighter like JF 17 in India will be mostly used for point defence and not as a multirole aircraft. The Load carried by JF 17 is much smaller compared to the Rafale or the Mirage and hence it is not suitable for our air force. 

The Rafale holds as much relevance as the Eurofighter typhoon even till 2050. India might be procuring the F3 variant along with the SPECTRA EW suite.

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## ashok321

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-to-pay-7-87-billion-euros-for-36-rafale-fighters-1459175







NEW DELHI: 
*HIGHLIGHTS*

India and France will sign the Rafale fighter jet deal on September 23
India decided to buy the jets a decade ago; Deal worth 7.87 billion Euros
Along with the 36 fighters, India will also get spares and weaponry

More than a decade after India decided to purchase a new line of fighter aircraft, it is now official. On September 23rd, India will sign a deal for 36 Rafale fighters with France for about 7.87 billion Euros, sources have told NDTV.

*Along with the 36 fighters, India will also get spares and weaponry, including the Meteor missile, considered among the most advanced in the world.*

Of the 7.87 billion Euros, about 50 per cent will be covered under offset, which means either France will reinvest this amount in India or source equipment of this value from India.

*French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will be in India for the signing of the deal.*

An Inter-Governmental Agreement between India and France allows for a follow on order of Rafale fighters with a 10 per cent cost escalation. The government claims that it has brought down the price by about 600 million Euros from the initial demand.

The deal could not be signed this January when French President Francois Hollande was the Chief Guest for the Republic Day because India wanted a better price.

Negotiations went on till 2 am on January 26, but an agreement on price could not be reached then. India and France agreed to sign a general agreement without naming the price.

For the Indian Air Force, the deal is bitter-sweet. On one hand, they will be getting two squadrons of the state-of-the-art fighter, on the other hand, the original requirement was for at least 126 jets.

India needs at least 42 squadrons of fighters and has an existing strength of 32. The fighter fleet will go down further by about 10 squadrons as the MiG-21 fighter will have to be decommissioned.

The new fighters will begin entering service in 2019.

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## Beyond CMOS

Levina said:


> Good observation.
> Yes he is a Bengali. Now that it's confirmed that it's not a French word, I'll wait for his reply.


I think the dude meant "prakshepan-astra" meaning missile in sanskrit.



dadeechi said:


> I am totally disappointed with the selection of this date. I pray that better sense prevails and they change the date to 25th or 26th instead.


C'mon guys, no need to be so superstitious..

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## R!CK

randomradio said:


> Trappier himself said France won't be taking deliveries. It's only 26 aircraft out of 66 (at 11 a year) for France for the 2014-2019 LPM.
> 
> http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/france-to-cut-back-on-rafale-order/article4982769.ece
> 
> 
> France will receive all 26 jets by 2017--
> 2014 - 11
> 2015 - 8
> 2016 - 6
> 2017 - 1
> 
> Come 2018 and 2019, France will see zero deliveries. If you really want more, then you will have to place a new order.
> 
> So the 5th tranche will only happen from 2020, in the new LPM. In fact this is probably what @CNL-PN-AA has been referring to as the F3R2. In the meantime, you can upgrade your older aircraft to the F3R standard.



Brother, the news you posted is outdated. In 2013, there was 0 export orders for rafale. Please go through Dassault publications from July, 2016. Year 2018, French state will have an outstanding order of 31 jets. This is without considering the next Tranche order expected for 2020-25 timeline.

However the current Mirage upgrade project to keep them operational to 2030 might slow down the next Tranche order. Regardless, your information that French order will be completed by 2017 seems to be wrong.

Good Day!

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## migflug

from fb:






*Tejas-India's MRCA*
September 13 at 8:00pm · 


More details of Rafale contract

*Dasault has confirmed that the Rafales will be delivered at a rate of two airframes per month. *The IGA is being prepared and our sources tell us that the agreement will be signed before the end of this month, some even suggesting by next week.

Earlier negotiations stipulated that the Rafales were to be delivered 18 months from the signing of the contract.* But the current contract reveal the delivery start date to be in 2019, possibly due to the modifications required by the IAF and conflicting delivery schedules with Egypt and Qatar among various other reasons.*

*The deal includes ToT and a 50% offset where France will invest 30 percent into military aeronautics-related research programs and 20 percent into local production of Rafale components.* ToT includes state-of-the-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics.

Another important development was the confirmation of 'Make In India' Rafale production line by the BJP spokeperson during a television program*. As we had reported earlier, the follow on orders will be in 5 tranches with a total order around 150+ jets for both IAF and the Navy under MII. *The decision will be made before the end of this financial year.

#Warwolf

while few members here are speculating that rafale will be delivered by 2019, actually it will start delivering from 2019

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## halloweene

debspark90 said:


> Guys any idea if we are getting the SCALP EG too ?


Only one reason you would not get it is if India was not compliant with MTCR...


randomradio said:


> No, he got a ride.
> 
> http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/thunder-at-100-feet-flying-frances-rafale-superfighter-495271
> 
> 
> 
> There are standard specs and Indian-specific specs.
> 
> Under standard ones, it's for all Rafale clients, that's uprated engine, Spectra and radar upgrades, SATCOM, new materials for the airframe etc.
> 
> For the Indian-specific ones, it will most likely include Indian weapons, Israeli HMD, Litening pod...
> 
> These are the ones we know of.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing less than 150.


Right. Ajai Shukla was denied a ride.

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## PARIKRAMA

halloweene said:


> Only one reason you would not get it is if India was not compliant with MTCR...
> 
> Right. Ajai Shukla was denied a ride.



Can you throw some light on delivery schedule.
Talks are wild about 2019 and a total of 66 months delivery schedule from date of signing (2016-22 beginning) as well as all delivery finished between 2018,19 and 20

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## Sri

Finally Chosen the right day ( 23rd Sept, Ashtami) 

Ashtami: The Rudra rule this day, which is good for taking up arms, building of one's defenses, and fortification.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio said:


> Trappier himself said France won't be taking deliveries. It's only 26 aircraft out of 66 (at 11 a year) for France for the 2014-2019 LPM.
> 
> http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/france-to-cut-back-on-rafale-order/article4982769.ece
> 
> 
> France will receive all 26 jets by 2017--
> 2014 - 11
> 2015 - 8
> 2016 - 6
> 2017 - 1
> 
> Come 2018 and 2019, France will see zero deliveries. If you really want more, then you will have to place a new order.
> 
> So the 5th tranche will only happen from 2020, in the new LPM. In fact this is probably what @CNL-PN-AA has been referring to as the F3R2. In the meantime, you can upgrade your older aircraft to the F3R standard.


We have to receive 26 Rafale during the LPM, it's our plan because we want to create a new squadron of Rafale with Nuclear weapons to replace some Mirage 2000 N.

With these Rafale we will have receive 152 Rafale, but the current contract between Dassault and the French government is for 60 Rafale to reach a total amount of 180 Rafale. So without any new contract Dassault will have to procure 28 Rafale to France after the LPM. And I think it will be at the rate of 6 by year. So in 2021 France will have to order 45 Rafale for delivery starting in 2024 and it is likely it will be Rafale MLU.

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## Vergennes

A reminder.

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## halloweene

PARIKRAMA said:


> Can you throw some light on delivery schedule.
> Talks are wild about 2019 and a total of 66 months delivery schedule from date of signing (2016-22 beginning) as well as all delivery finished between 2018,19 and 20


No sorry, i can ask a Dassault executive after signature, however they are usually quite secrecive

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## BON PLAN

Based on 2011-12 timeline Mr Ashley Tellis version






++++

[/QUOTE]

*Some very strange Datas :

Gripen : Superlative maneuverability. OK. Why not. Strange to say that when it's poor in hot and high perf also....
Rafale : Good maneuverability. ONLY GOOD ? same close coupled config, more T/W ratio than Gripen...
SH18 : remarkable maneuverability. REMARKABLE ? 

Rafale win all dog fight against SH ......*

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## Picdelamirand-oil

The production is currently at 1/year, it was not changed even if the 2016 delivery was less: It's just because plane manufactured in 2016 have needed more test which were to be made later.





What is important is that there will be 26 plane for France before end of 2019. How they will be manufactured is not know. The rate increase 3 years after the decision to increase it. The decision to increase the rate to 2/year has been taken in june 2015, the decision to increase the rate to 3/year will be taken in September 2016.

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## BON PLAN

R!CK said:


> The Production output was 8 jets in 2015, against the capacity of 11/year. This is mainly due to 3 units being reconfigured for Egypt from Fr AF standard.
> 
> Order Backlog 2014: France(43)
> 
> *2015 Total - 8 units*
> 
> *2015 - First Half*
> 1 unit for France
> 3 units for Egypt
> 
> *2015 - First Half*
> 4 units for France​
> Order Backlog 2015: France(38) Egypt(21) Qatar (24)
> 
> *2016 Total - 9 units*
> 
> *2016 - First Half*
> 3 units for Egypt (2015 airframe)
> 4 units for France
> 
> *2016 - Second Half*
> 2 units for France​P.S: Only 6 new airframes built. Line to undergo preparation for production ramp-up 2017
> 
> Order Backlog 2016: France(32) Egypt(18) Qatar (24)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *2017
> *
> 1 unit for France
> 3 units for Egypt​ Line up-gradation to continue. Qatar standard to complete testing. Indian standard to begin testing.
> 
> _Source: *http://www.dassault-aviation.tv/first_half_year_2016_results-1416-en.html* and multiple official documents._
> 
> Order Backlog 2017: France(31) Egypt(15) Qatar (24)
> 
> *2018*
> 
> *22-33 units/year proposed*​
> 6-9 units for Egypt?
> 3-6 units for Qatar?
> 3-6 units for India?
> 3-9 units for France?​*2019
> *
> *33 units/year
> *
> 9-12 units for Egypt (Completion of Tranche1)
> 9-12 units for Qatar?
> 6-12 units for India?
> 3-6 units for France?​
> *2020*
> 
> *33 units/year*​
> 6-12 units for Qatar? (Completion of Order)
> 12-15 units for India?
> 6-12 units for France?​
> Personally France might continue to receive 3 units/year until Egypt Tranche 1 is completed. Qatar contract has an agreed timeline of 2018-20 for 24 units. Indian order might be executed over 2018-20/21 time frame.
> 
> _Disclaimer: Not speaking from family source background, data compiled from multiple official sources. Feel free to ignore if wrong._
> ​Good Day all!


The 33 planes/year rate is not decided. For the moment it's a 22 planes/year that is engaged from 2018.

But some good news may happend, with this order (I don't think so), and also if Egypt and/or Qatar opted for 12 more planes, or another deal (Malaysia ?)



randomradio said:


> We will get all the jets by 2019.
> 
> Trappier said last year that Dassault has already started increasing production rate.
> http://in.reuters.com/article/dassault-rafale-idINFWN10003E20150720
> 
> The earlier plan was to double production with Indian orders, but Qatar signed before India. So Dassault has no choice but to triple production. And then there's a potential IN order also.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I said.
> 
> 3/month - August = 33 jets/month.
> 
> In 2016, Dassault will deliver 9 jets. 6 to France and 3 to Egypt.
> In 2017, Dassault will deliver 4 jets. 1 to France, 3 to Egypt.
> In 2018, Dassault will deliver up to 33 jets. 3 to Egypt, 11 to Qatar, 18 to India.
> In 2019, 3 to Egypt, 11 to Qatar, 18 to India.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing for France until after 2020.


I don't agree.



randomradio said:


> We will naturally have to go by what Trappier says. And it's not 'commence' deliveries, it's 'finish' deliveries.
> 
> The delivery time frame is 3 years from date of signature. So by December 2019, we should have all 36, if we go by the French financial year. Or March 2020 if we go by the Indian one.
> 
> And IAF requirement is 1 squadron per year, even for MII.


Too short ! 
You need time to grow from 11/year to 22, and from 22 to 33.

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> The production is currently at 1/year, it was not changed even if the 2016 delivery was less: It's just because plane manufactured in 2016 have needed more test which were to be made later.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is important is that there will be 26 plane for France before end of 2019. How they will be manufactured is not know. The rate increase 3 years after the decision to increase it. The decision to increase the rate to 2/year has been taken in june 2015, the decision to increase the rate to 3/year will be taken in September 2016.



Okay, so instead of 2018 and 2019, we will get all the jets in 2019 and 2020?

But France is guaranteed to get 0 in 2018 and 2019, otherwise the numbers don't stick.

Picdel, do you think French numbers will cross 225?

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## Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio said:


> Okay, so instead of 2018 and 2019, we will get all the jets in 2019 and 2020?
> 
> But France is guaranteed to get 0 in 2018 and 2019, otherwise the numbers don't stick.
> 
> Picdel, do you think French numbers will cross 225?


Yes because it will take 6 years from 2024 to procure 45 Rafale and then it will be time to replace the first Rafale that arrived in 2001 with Rafale MLU. It could be at 6/year only if there is still export order.

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## Taygibay

RandomR, check what Pic told you.

-There are more Rafales for France past the LPM.
-Those that reach zero by 2018 are the M version incl. F1 retrofit.
-And all those tables and numbers you bandy around are _from be-
fore / without_ the production increase.

Now, whatever the curve of the ramp-up ( which Halloweene will
be best placed to answer so let's give him time ) this is also to be
tied to the F-3R standard available also in 2018. Some birds have
to be reserved for it as an LRIP.

Last but not least, the Rafales taken from the AdlA line for Egypt
have to be versed back to it by the end of its initial delivery deal.

Besides, the important thing for India is that a full 11 at minima
seem slated for it once 3 per month rate is reached. That means
that the longest delay would be 3 years.

That last is what Éric Trappier said repeatedly when answering
journos by linking the 2 to 3 increase to your signature.

From September, 3 years is 2020.

@Abingdon, offered to India does not equal to offered to IAF ...
which is what I meant to point out, my friend.

And good day all, Tay.

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## A.P. Richelieu

BON PLAN said:


> Based on 2011-12 timeline Mr Ashley Tellis version
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ++++



*Some very strange Datas :

Gripen : Superlative maneuverability. OK. Why not. Strange to say that when it's poor in hot and high perf also....
Rafale : Good maneuverability. ONLY GOOD ? same close coupled config, more T/W ratio than Gripen...
SH18 : remarkable maneuverability. REMARKABLE ? 

Rafale win all dog fight against SH ......*[/QUOTE]
Looks like the Gripen E disadvantages are disappearing.

Final Configuration settled.
AESA radar on track.
First plane to be able to use Meteor. SDB approved for use.
"Hot" performance unknown for Gripen E.
High Cost - not compared to Rafale.

Subsystems sourced from third parties - same for Typhoon.
Technology Transfers only on SAAB stuff, but the includes GaN Radar.
Political Benefits -maybe not.

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## R!CK

A.P. Richelieu said:


> *Some very strange Datas :
> 
> Gripen : Superlative maneuverability. OK. Why not. Strange to say that when it's poor in hot and high perf also....
> Rafale : Good maneuverability. ONLY GOOD ? same close coupled config, more T/W ratio than Gripen...
> SH18 : remarkable maneuverability. REMARKABLE ?
> 
> Rafale win all dog fight against SH ......*
> Looks like the Gripen E disadvantages are disappearing.
> 
> Final Configuration settled.
> AESA radar on track.
> First plane to be able to use Meteor. SDB approved for use.
> "Hot" performance unknown for Gripen E.
> High Cost - not compared to Rafale.
> 
> Subsystems sourced from third parties - same for Typhoon.
> Technology Transfers only on SAAB stuff, but the includes GaN Radar.
> Political Benefits -maybe not.




Gripen is good for its price. A good option for all the countries that can't afford twin-engine jet's operational/acquisition costs. A good option for countries that needs a credible fighter but at a lower budget.

A good option for a country with an indigenous single engine jet? A good option for a country that operates over 400 twin-engine jets and has an indigenous single engine jet to handle point defense? Maybe not. There is absolutely no place for a country like India to import a single engine jet because the country simply doesn't require a single engine jet to be an all rounder super beast? If idea was to have a single engine best of best aircraft, lets buy 500 Gripens and sell our Su-30s and Mig-29s?

P.S: SAAB is willing to share GAN AESA for Indian grippen deal but itself use Italian Selex AESA radar on their jets? Lol

Good Day!

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> RandomR, check what Pic told you.
> 
> -There are more Rafales for France past the LPM.
> -Those that reach zero by 2018 are the M version incl. F1 retrofit.
> -And all those tables and numbers you bandy around are _from be-
> fore / without_ the production increase.
> 
> Now, whatever the curve of the ramp-up ( which Halloweene will
> be best placed to answer so let's give him time ) this is also to be
> tied to the F-3R standard available also in 2018. Some birds have
> to be reserved for it as an LRIP.
> 
> Last but not least, the Rafales taken from the AdlA line for Egypt
> have to be versed back to it by the end of its initial delivery deal.
> 
> Besides, the important thing for India is that a full 11 at minima
> seem slated for it once 3 per month rate is reached. That means
> that the longest delay would be 3 years.
> 
> That last is what Éric Trappier said repeatedly when answering
> journos by linking the 2 to 3 increase to your signature.
> 
> From September, 3 years is 2020.
> 
> @Abingdon, offered to India does not equal to offered to IAF ...
> which is what I meant to point out, my friend.
> 
> And good day all, Tay.



The lowered orders for the 2014-19 is not because ADLA/MN don't want Rafales anymore. It's to buy other equipment for the armed forces, probably more ships. So I'm not saying you won't reach 180 or 225 aircraft, I'm saying France won't be taking orders in 2018 and 2019.

And as Picdel stated, the French will actually start getting the remaining 28 jets only after 2020. And the IAF order is confirmed anyway. So the remaining 28 were only if the Indian or UAE order didn't come through. That gives 5 years for the remaining 28 at 6/year. Followed by the remaining 45 from 2024 to 2032.

Production of the Rafale (French line) is until 2032. And as Picdel said, it will be at 6/year for France.

CNL said that apart from Egypt, Qatar, India and UAE, there are 5 other countries interested in the Rafale. Like a reported 72 aircraft expected from the Saudis alone.

There is also the possibility IAF will order another 36 from the French lines after the first 54 jets, minimum 5 squadrons was the original requirement from early last year, if the MII program is canceled for the PAK FA program. Which means India could end up buying 126 Rafales directly from the French lines (including 36 for IN). If this happens, even 33/year won't be enough because the actual MMRCA requirement was 20/year for only the IAF, not counting the IN.

That's also why one of the plans was to setup a new line in India for 36/year (maybe even 45/year according to Picdel) and supply the export aircraft from the Indian line. And out of that India alone was expected to take 30 a year.

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## R!CK

randomradio said:


> The lowered orders for the 2014-19 is not because ADLA/MN don't want Rafales anymore. It's to buy other equipment for the armed forces, probably more ships. So I'm not saying you won't reach 180 or 225 aircraft, I'm saying France won't be taking orders in 2018 and 2019.
> 
> And as Picdel stated, the French will actually start getting the remaining 28 jets only after 2020. And the IAF order is confirmed anyway. So the remaining 28 were only if the Indian or UAE order didn't come through. That gives 5 years for the remaining 28 at 6/year. Followed by the remaining 45 from 2024 to 2032.
> 
> Production of the Rafale (French line) is until 2032. And as Picdel said, it will be at 6/year for France.
> 
> CNL said that apart from Egypt, Qatar, India and UAE, there are 5 other countries interested in the Rafale. Like a reported 72 aircraft expected from the Saudis alone.
> 
> There is also the possibility IAF will order another 36 from the French lines after the first 54 jets, minimum 5 squadrons was the original requirement from early last year, if the MII program is canceled for the PAK FA program. Which means India could end up buying 126 Rafales directly from the French lines (including 36 for IN). If this happens, even 33/year won't be enough because the actual MMRCA requirement was 20/year for only the IAF, not counting the IN.
> 
> That's also why one of the plans was to setup a new line in India for 36/year (maybe even 45/year according to Picdel) and supply the export aircraft from the Indian line. And out of that India alone was expected to take 30 a year.



These are a lot of big IFs.

If Saudi is not happy with 154 F-15 SA, 86 F-15C, 72 Typhoon, 80 upgraded Tornado and the fuel prices picks up in a big way. There is even rumour that KSA has not exercised a repeat order of 72 more Typhoons seeking more clarity on the AESA plan. (F-15, Typhoon and Rafale while their economy is slowing down?)

If india can ever order 126 off the shelf Rafales. (Makes no sense to me)

If 36-45/year from MII line? In how many years? (Aren't we getting too ambitious?)

As per current plan, France must get 32 more units from 2017-2020. Order for Tranche 5 (2020-25) is not placed yet. This is what is available in open source and is stated by Dassault Chief. France delaying delivery of these 32 jets beyond 2020 is only an assumption so far. May/may not happen. Personally, while I do think few deliveries will be delayed, I'd be surprised if France is not taking any deliveries between 2018-19. Its so hard to believe and the French definitely won't want to be the last ones flying the F3R standards?

Good Day!

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## randomradio

R!CK said:


> These are a lot of big IFs.



It's because IAF is in a transition period, between generations, that's made worse because we need a lot of older jets also due to the declining squadrons. So IAF and MoD are looking at a lot of options, including combinations of many options, and all this while they are yet unsure of how the economy will progress.

Rafale MII will mean more than 200 jets will be ordered. Direct imports will mean we will be stuck with 126 jets at best, but it will free up funds for other programs. And IAF's actual minimum Rafale requirement is only 90 jets. They are willing to accept any other cheaper jet if the 90 Rafales are assured. So the MoD is looking at single engine jets also.

Blame the UPA for this mess. We should have purchased the M-2000 line and finished production by now.



> If Saudi is not happy with 154 F-15 SA, 86 F-15C, 72 Typhoon, 80 upgraded Tornado and the fuel prices picks up in a big way. There is even rumour that KSA has not exercised a repeat order of 72 more Typhoons seeking more clarity on the AESA plan. (F-15, Typhoon and Rafale while their economy is slowing down?)



The Saudi economy is not going down. And their purchases are particularly for politics rather than adding actual military capability.



> If india can ever order 126 off the shelf Rafales. (Makes no sense to me)
> 
> If 36-45/year from MII line? In how many years? (Aren't we getting too ambitious?)



It's due to the time frame. In the very next statement you ask "how many years?"

We have to finish contract negotiations, then setup a production line, until then CKDs will come from France, and so on. It will take time. For MMRCA, we wanted a 20/year line for the IAF alone to start deliveries of CKDs within 4 years of signature. First deliveries will happen 6 years away at the current rate.

And this line will start eating into the FGFA line by then. Otoh, direct purchase of all 90 Rafales can be completed before the FGFA is inducted.



> As per current plan, France must get 32 more units from 2017-2020.



It's 26 jets from 2014-2019. It's a six year long plan.

https://defence.pk/threads/france-to-cut-back-on-rafale-order.268595/



> Order for Tranche 5 (2020-25) is not placed yet. This is what is available in open source and is stated by Dassault Chief. France delaying delivery of these 32 jets beyond 2020 is only an assumption so far. May/may not happen. Personally, while I do think few deliveries will be delayed, I'd be surprised if France is not taking any deliveries between 2018-19. Its so hard to believe and the French definitely won't want to be the last ones flying the F3R standards?
> 
> Good Day!



The French can upgrade their older aircraft to F3R if necessary. Unless orders are actually placed, nothing will happen.


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## monitor



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## Mentee

40 125 or 150? How many Rafael's are on the shopping list?


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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> Saudi Arabia is a cold prospect.
> After india inked the deal, the next may be Malysia I think. Apart a follow order from Egypt....
> 
> **************************



Qatar's original requirement was 72 also.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/154794/qatar-close-to-selecting-rafale.html

So at least more follow on orders can be expected from Qatar.



> From another forum, about MII
> 
> http://indiandefence.com/threads/mrca-updates-and-discussions.22159/page-1151#post-494717
> 
> MII = 5x36 = 180 ...... Sci Fi or not ???



Dude, we have discussed this so many times on IDF. Numbers will cross 200 with MII.



Mentee said:


> 40 125 or 150? How many Rafael's are on the shopping list?



All of the above and more are under discussions. There are many numbers, depending on the need.

IAF needs 400 new jets in total. IN needs 150+. So contracts will be split between at least 4 jets.

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## Mentee

randomradio said:


> Qatar's original requirement was 72 also.
> http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/154794/qatar-close-to-selecting-rafale.html
> 
> So at least more follow on orders can be expected from Qatar.
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, we have discussed this so many times on IDF. Numbers will cross 200 with MII.
> 
> 
> 
> All of the above and more are under discussions. There are many numbers, depending on the need.
> 
> IAF needs 400 new jets in total. IN needs 150+. So contracts will be split between at least 4 jets.


I was in school then when all this mmrca drama started, now iam in 4th year , kb ay gy yeh vaahan

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## cerberus

Mentee said:


> 40 125 or 150? How many Rafael's are on the shopping list?


First 36+18 Come by 2019-2020

Than other contract Under MII Will be reached By 2019 our Military budget increases to 80-90 billion $ by then

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## Mentee

cerberus said:


> First 36+18 Come the
> 
> Than other contract Under MII Will be reached By 2019 our Military budget increases to 80-90 billion $


90 billion $ mark set for the next three years is quite outrageous , and what does mii stand for?


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## mirage

Mentee said:


> I was in school then when all this mmrca drama started, now iam in 4th year , kb ay gy yeh vaahan


wah wah , bohut hasi wali baat ki apne *abdulla* jee .

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Mentee said:


> 40 125 or 150? How many Rafael's are on the shopping list?


I can give here only a French perspective. From this point of view, the number of Rafale originally sold to India is of little importance. Indeed the Rafale is a wonderful airplane which replaces in France seven categories of aircraft, and allowed to impressive savings by replacing 593 older aircraft with 140 Rafale, without loss of capacity in quantity or in quality.

We are therefore confident that Indians, when they will have used the Rafale, will want more of them due to its qualities.

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## cerberus

Mentee said:


> 90 billion $ mark set for the next three years is quite outrageous , and what does mii stand for?


India is getting 4 trillion $ by 2020 you do the math current budget is 51 billion $

currently india is 2.3 trillion $ by all forecast we expected to reach 3.5 billion $ by 2020 but excluding GST figures

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## Mentee

mirage said:


> wah wah , bohut hasi wali baat ki apne *abdulla* jee .


The name is mentee, and shukria if I made you smile 



cerberus said:


> India is getting 4 trillion $ by 2020 you do the math current budget is 51 billion $
> 
> currently india is 2.3 trillion $ by all forecast we expected to reach 3.5 billion $ by 2020 but excluding GST figures


I suggest you guys to freeze it, lets build some joint Asian universities, health centers and what not

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## kaykay

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> I can give here only a French perspective. From this point of view, the number of Rafale originally sold to India is of little importance. Indeed the Rafale is a wonderful airplane which replaces in France seven categories of aircraft, and allowed to impressive savings by replacing 593 older aircraft with 140 Rafale, without loss of capacity in quantity or in quality.
> 
> We are therefore confident that Indians, when they will have used the Rafale, will want more of them due to its qualities.


Indeed sir. But with Indian perspective, Its frustrating to see that even if you replace Mig-21 and Mig-27s with Su-30MKIs or Rafales, they will only count squadrons and not the quality of the jets you are replacing with. It will end up with news headlines like 'IAF squadron strength hit all time low and India lost its numerical edge' haha.

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
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## GuardianRED

kaykay said:


> Indeed sir. But with Indian perspective, Its frustrating to see that even if you replace Mig-21 and Mig-27s with Su-30MKIs or Rafales, they will only count squadrons and not the quality of the jets you are replacing with. It will end up with news headlines like 'IAF squadron strength hit all time low and India lost its numerical edge' haha.


Very True! ...Somebody give this guy a positive Rating!!!

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Just an exemple: France have reorganized its Chammal deployment for operations in Iraq and Syria. The number of Rafale increased from 6 to 12 and the Mirage 2000 are removed.

The Mirage flyed 10 810 hours in 20 months. They were 6 Mirage until the 22 of february 2016 and 8 Mirage since this date. The normal flying hours for Mirage in France is 200 h/year. So these Mirage flyed at 463% of normal rate, that is to say 926 h by year and by Mirage or the normal flying hours of 33 Mirage for the team.

The ability to increase the availability of your planes is a huge quality in war time. And Rafale is even better than Mirage for that.

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## [Bregs]

kaykay said:


> Indeed sir. But with Indian perspective, Its frustrating to see that even if you replace Mig-21 and Mig-27s with Su-30MKIs or Rafales, they will only count squadrons and not the quality of the jets you are replacing with. It will end up with news headlines like 'IAF squadron strength hit all time low and India lost its numerical edge' haha.




India media urgently needs to take classes in defence studies and there equipments

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## BON PLAN

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> I can give here only a French perspective. From this point of view, the number of Rafale originally sold to India is of little importance. Indeed the Rafale is a wonderful airplane which replaces in France seven categories of aircraft, and allowed to impressive savings by replacing 593 older aircraft with 140 Rafale, without loss of capacity in quantity or in quality.
> 
> We are therefore confident that Indians, when they will have used the Rafale, will want more of them due to its qualities.


Don't forget the 35 Mirage 2000-5 and 55 Mirage 2000-D along with the 140 Rafale.....

But the result is (nearly) the same : far less planes for a better result.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Mentee said:


> The name is mentee, and shukria if I made you smile
> 
> 
> I suggest you guys to freeze it, lets build some joint Asian universities, health centers and what not



History has we are better at a distance. Let it be so. Try ignore each other as much as possible , this will bring down conflicts. 



BON PLAN said:


> Saudi Arabia is a cold prospect.
> After india inked the deal, the next may be Malysia I think. Apart a follow order from Egypt....
> 
> **************************
> 
> From another forum, about MII
> 
> http://indiandefence.com/threads/mrca-updates-and-discussions.22159/page-1151#post-494717
> 
> MII = 5x36 = 180 ...... Sci Fi or not ???



Make in India airframes ? The IAF wants 9-10 full squadrons of Rafale and (21x10)-36 should be the MII numbers for IAF airframes.

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## R!CK

randomradio said:


> It's 26 jets from 2014-2019. It's a six year long plan.
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/france-to-cut-back-on-rafale-order.268595/
> 
> The French can upgrade their older aircraft to F3R if necessary. Unless orders are actually placed, nothing will happen.



Bro, you keep going to data from 2013. This is no more relevant. I once again urge you to go through Dassault data published from mid of this year.

*2015-December*






*2016-July*





The current French backlog is for 34 jets. 2 more units will join the fleet this year and a further 1 unit in 2017. Year 2018, French confirmed backlog will be 31 units. Now when and where these will be delivered, we don't know. But this 31 units for France is confirmed and not cut back.

P.S: The Fanboy in me wants you to be right but the professional in me puts a big question mark on your statements. No offence.



randomradio said:


> Qatar's original requirement was 72 also.
> http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/154794/qatar-close-to-selecting-rafale.html
> 
> So at least more follow on orders can be expected from Qatar.



Qatar original requirement was for 72 F-15s which is awaiting Pentagon approval for ages. Very similar to Kuwait awaiting F/A 18 - SH approval from pentagon.

Running out of patience, Qatar ordered 24 Rafales with an option clause for further 12 for a possible future fleet of 36 rafales. The number was limited to 24/36 only because Qatar still prefers the F-15s over rafale. A future fleet of Qatar may comprise, 36 Rafales & 36 F-15s. Unless, Boeing deal goes downhill and the F-15s get denied to Qatar (close to impossible), then Qatar may open a new order for similar number of 24 + 12 units options if not more.

_"The Pentagon and the State Department have been considering the sale of 36 Boeing F-15 fighter jets to Qatar valued at around $4 billion. They are also considering the sale of 28 F/A- 18E/F Super Hornets, plus options for 12 more, to Kuwait in a deal valued at around $3 billion."_

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-qatar-usa-jets-idUSKCN1175GQ

Good Day!

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## jha

Mentee said:


> The name is mentee, and shukria if I made you smile
> 
> 
> *I suggest you guys to freeze it, lets build some joint Asian universities, health centers and what not*



This is a good idea. 

I cant understand why are we planning to spend another $50 Billion on Rafales ( if reports of MII are true) when clearly this money can be used else where.

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## R!CK

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> (21x10)-36 should be the MII numbers for IAF airframes.



The rafale fleet will have 18 units/squadron.

Good Day!

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## Ankit Kumar 002

kaykay said:


> Indeed sir. But with Indian perspective, Its frustrating to see that even if you replace Mig-21 and Mig-27s with Su-30MKIs or Rafales, they will only count squadrons and not the quality of the jets you are replacing with. It will end up with news headlines like 'IAF squadron strength hit all time low and India lost its numerical edge' haha.



Because in case of India , we are taking steps for two front defence. Its not like lets replace 3 Mirages bombing in some foreign lands with 1 Rafale equally capable as 3. We will at least need 2. 

For western front we need 1vs1 parity and for up north ,enough capability to hold on to 1/3rd of Chinese air fleet. And this is not me or media , but what the near to ideal situation demands.



R!CK said:


> The rafale fleet will have 18 units/squadron.
> 
> Good Day!


The IAF with MMRCA wanted 6-9 Full Strength Squadrons to allow high operational rates even while facing attrition in conflicts. With MII over the horizon , I am sure they will make sure it happens.

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## R!CK

kaykay said:


> Indeed sir. But with Indian perspective, Its frustrating to see that even if you replace Mig-21 and Mig-27s with Su-30MKIs or Rafales, they will only count squadrons and not the quality of the jets you are replacing with. It will end up with news headlines like 'IAF squadron strength hit all time low and India lost its numerical edge' haha.



A different perspective to it, When we flew Mig-21/27s our prospective opponent flew aircraft of similar capability. However this is no more the case, we cant expect to replace 10 squadrons of Mig-21 with 3 squadron MKI just because they give the same output. This is because while you induct 3 squadrons of MKI, your prospective opponent just added 10? Our eastern border neighbour will be a defining factor in all our defense acquisitions for a long long time. While quality always has an edge, there is always some relevance in quantity.

P.S: Media hype is bullsh*t anyway regardless.



Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> The IAF with MMRCA wanted 6-9 Full Strength Squadrons to allow high operational rates even while facing attrition in conflicts. With MII over the horizon , I am sure they will make sure it happens.



IAF are funny people, the original MMRCA deal was planned for 6 squadrons of 21 units each. After cancellation of MMRCA, IAF proposed a 16 unit/squadron theme to increase off-the-shelf purchase to 80 units. Now that MII plan is approved, we have made up our mind to have 18 jets/squadron.

_Sources said the IAF has conveyed the need for five squadrons and estimated a squadron at 16 jets each, instead of the normal number of 18 jets, as the Rafale with its high-end technology is available to fly at short notice and has a shorter maintenance “turn-around”._

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/80-rafale-type-jets-needed-iaf/102069.html

P.S: Squadron strength makes no difference regardless, at time of war every jet that can fly will be up in the air. Weather Sq. A has 18 units ready to fly or Sq. B has 21 units, who cares?

Good Day!

Question: Any reliable data on how many units/squadron for MKI? I've heard 21,18 and 16. Would like to confirm.

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## randomradio

R!CK said:


> Bro, you keep going to data from 2013. This is no more relevant. I once again urge you to go through Dassault data published from mid of this year.
> 
> *2015-December*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *2016-July*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The current French backlog is for 34 jets. 2 more units will join the fleet this year and a further 1 unit in 2017. Year 2018, French confirmed backlog will be 31 units. Now when and where these will be delivered, we don't know. But this 31 units for France is confirmed and not cut back.
> 
> P.S: The Fanboy in me wants you to be right but the professional in me puts a big question mark on your statements. No offence.



Bro, I know about that. That is Dassault's backlog of French orders. But French MoD itself has put a hold on the deliveries. Meaning, the delivery of those Rafales are guaranteed, but it is the time frame that has been stretched. After 2017, the Rafale France backlog will be 28 and will stay that way until 2020.

And it's cool if one of us is right or wrong, all of these decisions are fluid.

There's been no change in the orders, just the delivery has been changed.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

@R!CK
For MKI , you can count on me. No 16 aircraft squadrons. Most are 19-20 aircrafts. 2 Are 17 each [As of Oct-Nov 2015]. Eventually each will have at least 19 as more aircraft are rolled out.

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## randomradio

R!CK said:


> Question: Any reliable data on how many units/squadron for MKI? I've heard 21,18 and 16. Would like to confirm.



Some squadrons are 16, some are 18. The rest are reserves. So 20 jets are connected to each squadron, including reserves.

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## kaykay

R!CK said:


> A different perspective to it, When we flew Mig-21/27s our prospective opponent flew aircraft of similar capability. However this is no more the case, we cant expect to replace 10 squadrons of Mig-21 with 3 squadron MKI just because they give the same output. This is because while you induct 3 squadrons of MKI, your prospective opponent just added 10? Our eastern border neighbour will be a defining factor in all our defense acquisitions for a long long time. While quality always has an edge, there is always some relevance in quantity.
> 
> P.S: Media hype is bullsh*t anyway regardless.
> 
> 
> 
> IAF are funny people, the original MMRCA deal was planned for 6 squadrons of 21 units each. After cancellation of MMRCA, IAF proposed a 16 unit/squadron theme to increase off-the-shelf purchase to 80 units. Now that MII plan is approved, we have made up our mind to have 18 jets/squadron.
> 
> _Sources said the IAF has conveyed the need for five squadrons and estimated a squadron at 16 jets each, instead of the normal number of 18 jets, as the Rafale with its high-end technology is available to fly at short notice and has a shorter maintenance “turn-around”._
> 
> http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/80-rafale-type-jets-needed-iaf/102069.html
> 
> P.S: Squadron strength makes no difference regardless, at time of war every jet that can fly will be up in the air. Weather Sq. A has 18 units ready to fly or Sq. B has 21 units, who cares?
> 
> Good Day!
> 
> Question: Any reliable data on how many units/squadron for MKI? I've heard 21,18 and 16. Would like to confirm.


For MKI its 16+3= 19
For others, Its 16+2+3=21.
For Rafale its just 18( may be 16+2).

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## R!CK

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> @R!CK
> For MKI , you can count on me. No 16 aircraft squadrons. Most are 19-20 aircrafts. 2 Are 17 each [As of Oct-Nov 2015]. Eventually each will have at least 19 as more aircraft are rolled out.





randomradio said:


> Some squadrons are 16, some are 18. The rest are reserves. So 20 jets are connected to each squadron, including reserves.



So from our order of 272 - 6 (crashed) = 266 units, how many squadrons do we intend to raise? Without accounting for the much hyped follow-on of 40 additional jets. Also keep in mind, each Brahmos squadron is said to be 20 jets/squadron.

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy 

Good Day all!

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## cerberus

R!CK said:


> So from our order of 272 - 6 (crashed) = 266 units, how many squadrons do we intend to raise? Without accounting for the much hyped follow-on of 40 additional jets. Also keep in mind, each Brahmos squadron is said to be 20 jets/squadron.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy
> 
> Good Day all!


*300 MKI ordered More Less HAL Confirmed this
RFI Invitation for “Empanelling Vendors for Make in India Programme for SU-30 MkI”*

REF: HAL/CD/617(RFI-SU-30 MKI)/2015 DATE: 16/07/2015



Sub: Invitation for “Empanelling Vendors for Make in India Programme for SU-30 MkI”



Background
1.1. Sukhoi-30 MkI is a twin seat, twin engine supersonic multipurpose fighter aircraft capable of day and night flying under all weather condition. The aircraft is powered by two powerful AL-31 FP engines with high thrust vectoring capability, fly-by-wire control in all axes, capability for in-flight refueling among other advanced features.HAL is manufacturing Su-30 MkI Aircraft under license from Russia.

1.2 Manufacture & overhaul of the Su-30MkI is carried out at HAL’s Aircraft Manufacturing Division at Nasik and the AL-31FP engine at Sukhoi Engine Division at Koraput. Various system LRUs are manufactured and repaired / serviced at HAL.

1.3 This fighterfleet of around 300 would need to be continuously maintained / serviced for next 30+ years.



2. Scope of ‘Make in India’programme for SU-30 MKI

2.1 This fighter fleet of Sukhoi numbering around 300 needs to be continuously kept flying fit for over three decades. HAL has established manufacturing and MRO facilities through ToT from Russia. There are further manufacturing and MRO technologies which have not been transferred under ToT. List of items / LRUs involved is placed at Annexure 1. In the light of long term support these technologies are to be established in the Country.Russian side / OEMs have expressed their willingness to transfer such Technologies to the Indian Industry.

2.2 In support of the above requirement a ‘MAKE IN INDIA’ conference is being organized at Moscow during MAKS Airshow (August 25th to August 30th) to facilitate B2B meetings between Indian industry and Russian OEMs.

2.3 Due to paucity of time, HAL is publishing the requirements under “Make in India” link in www.hal-india.com website. Indian vendors are requested to go through and respond directly to General Manager (Integrated Material Management), Corporate Office as per the procedure described in para 3.

2.4 Indian Vendors will have to visit Russia at their own cost for the “MAKS Airshow”. During the interaction with Russian Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs), discussions can take place for understanding the technology and finalise a Business Cooperation model.



3. Procedure for Response:

The interested firms must fill the form of response as given in Appendix-A. The filled-in form along with required documents should be submittedto General Manager (IMM) through e-mail id: tender.co@hal-india.com latest by 24thJuly 2015, 10:00 Hrs. This email id should not be used for any other correspondence. For correspondence / clarifications,e-mailid: imm1@hal-india.com is to be used.






Appendix-A
INFORMATION TO BE SUBMITTTED BY THE INTERESTED FIRMS

1. Name of the Firm :
2. CIN
3. Contact Details:

· Name of the Contact Person:
· Designation:
· Postal Address:
· Telephone / Mob. no.:
· Fax no.:
· E-mail address:

4. Other details:

· Present business portfolio:
· Annual Turnover for last 3 years:
· No of employees in the Firm:
· Details of manufacturing infrastructure:

5. It may be noted that the following requirement need to be fulfilled in future

a) Firms may need to obtain necessary approvals from Govt. agencies.
b) Firms may be required to create necessary infrastructure (Land / Building / Plant & Machinery etc..)
c) Firms are ready to obtain certifications from Airworthiness agencies (DGAQA / CEMILAC)
d) Firms are ready to obtain AS 9100C Certification

6. Any experience in Defence manufacturing:

If yes, please provide details.

7. Any other relevant information:

8. Declaration:It is certified that the above information is true to the best of my knowledge and belief.




(Authorized Signatory)
Seal of the Company


This information is collected only to facilitate B2B meetings under MAKE IN INDIA during MAKS Airshow 2015 at Moscow, Russia.

http://www.hal-india.com/Invitation for “Empanelling Vendors for Make in India Programme for SU-30 MkI”/M__241

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## kaykay

R!CK said:


> So from our order of 272 - 6 (crashed) = 266 units, how many squadrons do we intend to raise? Without accounting for the much hyped follow-on of 40 additional jets. Also keep in mind, each Brahmos squadron is said to be 20 jets/squadron.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy
> 
> Good Day all!


If past IAF chief is to be believed, he said "13-14 MKI squadron" Lets assume 14 squadron as it makes sense. 19*14= 266.( Out of these 266 aircrafts, 42 aircrafts will be for reserve).

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## Abingdonboy

BON PLAN said:


> Saudi Arabia is a cold prospect.
> After india inked the deal, the next may be Malysia I think. Apart a follow order from Egypt....
> 
> **************************
> 
> From another forum, about MII
> 
> http://indiandefence.com/threads/mrca-updates-and-discussions.22159/page-1151#post-494717
> 
> MII = 5x36 = 180 ...... Sci Fi or not ???





jha said:


> This is a good idea.
> 
> I cant understand why are we planning to spend another $50 Billion on Rafales ( if reports of MII are true) when clearly this money can be used else where.


1)$50bn is a made up figure
2) why India needs these planes? Because the world is what it is, investing in security is not a luxury but a necessity. Weakness is a destabilising factor and invites hostility. The first duty of any democratic government is the security of its people.

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## jha

Abingdonboy said:


> 1)$50bn is a made up figure
> 2) why India needs these planes? Because the world is what it is, investing in security is not a luxury but a necessity. Weakness is a destabilising factor and invites hostility. The first duty of any democratic government is the security of its people.



If not 50, then 40 ? Still a very very big figure to invest importing a foreign plane.

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## R!CK

jha said:


> If not 50, then 40 ? Still a very very big figure to invest importing a foreign plane.



Sadly that's the price we pay for sleeping comfortably at night without worrying about an unexpected war. Even nukes are a defining factor in several major conflicts, otherwise US would have attacked Russia and India would have attacked Pakistan over small issues. But let's all hope we have better days ahead.

Good Day!

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## Sliver

did India delay inking the deal with France until it got into MTCR for the SCALP?

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## randomradio

R!CK said:


> So from our order of 272 - 6 (crashed) = 266 units, how many squadrons do we intend to raise? Without accounting for the much hyped follow-on of 40 additional jets. Also keep in mind, each Brahmos squadron is said to be 20 jets/squadron.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy
> 
> Good Day all!



I completely forgot we lost 6. Thanks for reminding.

We will have 13.5 squadrons in 2019.



Sliver said:


> did India delay inking the deal with France until it got into MTCR for the SCALP?



No, the delay was not related to the MTCR at all.

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## zambino

What about Brimstone missile? Iaf will get it or not? If not which air to ground missile india will buy? Maverick??


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## Agent_47

R!CK said:


> So from our order of 272 - 6 (crashed) = 266 units, how many squadrons do we intend to raise? Without accounting for the much hyped follow-on of 40 additional jets. Also keep in mind, each Brahmos squadron is said to be 20 jets/squadron.
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy
> 
> Good Day all!


During last press conference IAF chief said total MKI sq will be 13 not 15 as previously indicated. It might be because of transfer of 2 sq to SFC.



cerberus said:


> *300 MKI ordered More Less HAL Confirmed this
> RFI Invitation for “Empanelling Vendors for Make in India Programme for SU-30 MkI”*
> 
> REF: HAL/CD/617(RFI-SU-30 MKI)/2015 DATE: 16/07/2015
> 
> 
> 
> Sub: Invitation for “Empanelling Vendors for Make in India Programme for SU-30 MkI”
> 
> 
> 
> Background
> 1.1. Sukhoi-30 MkI is a twin seat, twin engine supersonic multipurpose fighter aircraft capable of day and night flying under all weather condition. The aircraft is powered by two powerful AL-31 FP engines with high thrust vectoring capability, fly-by-wire control in all axes, capability for in-flight refueling among other advanced features.HAL is manufacturing Su-30 MkI Aircraft under license from Russia.
> 
> 1.2 Manufacture & overhaul of the Su-30MkI is carried out at HAL’s Aircraft Manufacturing Division at Nasik and the AL-31FP engine at Sukhoi Engine Division at Koraput. Various system LRUs are manufactured and repaired / serviced at HAL.
> 
> 1.3 This fighterfleet of around 300 would need to be continuously maintained / serviced for next 30+ years.
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Scope of ‘Make in India’programme for SU-30 MKI
> 
> 2.1 This fighter fleet of Sukhoi numbering around 300 needs to be continuously kept flying fit for over three decades. HAL has established manufacturing and MRO facilities through ToT from Russia. There are further manufacturing and MRO technologies which have not been transferred under ToT. List of items / LRUs involved is placed at Annexure 1. In the light of long term support these technologies are to be established in the Country.Russian side / OEMs have expressed their willingness to transfer such Technologies to the Indian Industry.
> 
> 2.2 In support of the above requirement a ‘MAKE IN INDIA’ conference is being organized at Moscow during MAKS Airshow (August 25th to August 30th) to facilitate B2B meetings between Indian industry and Russian OEMs.
> 
> 2.3 Due to paucity of time, HAL is publishing the requirements under “Make in India” link in www.hal-india.com website. Indian vendors are requested to go through and respond directly to General Manager (Integrated Material Management), Corporate Office as per the procedure described in para 3.
> 
> 2.4 Indian Vendors will have to visit Russia at their own cost for the “MAKS Airshow”. During the interaction with Russian Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs), discussions can take place for understanding the technology and finalise a Business Cooperation model.
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Procedure for Response:
> 
> The interested firms must fill the form of response as given in Appendix-A. The filled-in form along with required documents should be submittedto General Manager (IMM) through e-mail id: tender.co@hal-india.com latest by 24thJuly 2015, 10:00 Hrs. This email id should not be used for any other correspondence. For correspondence / clarifications,e-mailid: imm1@hal-india.com is to be used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Appendix-A
> INFORMATION TO BE SUBMITTTED BY THE INTERESTED FIRMS
> 
> 1. Name of the Firm :
> 2. CIN
> 3. Contact Details:
> 
> · Name of the Contact Person:
> · Designation:
> · Postal Address:
> · Telephone / Mob. no.:
> · Fax no.:
> · E-mail address:
> 
> 4. Other details:
> 
> · Present business portfolio:
> · Annual Turnover for last 3 years:
> · No of employees in the Firm:
> · Details of manufacturing infrastructure:
> 
> 5. It may be noted that the following requirement need to be fulfilled in future
> 
> a) Firms may need to obtain necessary approvals from Govt. agencies.
> b) Firms may be required to create necessary infrastructure (Land / Building / Plant & Machinery etc..)
> c) Firms are ready to obtain certifications from Airworthiness agencies (DGAQA / CEMILAC)
> d) Firms are ready to obtain AS 9100C Certification
> 
> 6. Any experience in Defence manufacturing:
> 
> If yes, please provide details.
> 
> 7. Any other relevant information:
> 
> 8. Declaration:It is certified that the above information is true to the best of my knowledge and belief.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Authorized Signatory)
> Seal of the Company
> 
> 
> This information is collected only to facilitate B2B meetings under MAKE IN INDIA during MAKS Airshow 2015 at Moscow, Russia.
> 
> http://www.hal-india.com/Invitation for “Empanelling Vendors for Make in India Programme for SU-30 MkI”/M__241


This might be for MRO being setup, nothing to do with more orders. HAL don't commit to anything without actual confirmation.

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## Sliver

@randomradio @PARIKRAMA 

India would not get SCALP (storm shadow) unless its a signatory for MTCR. this would mean:
1) the negotiations for SCALP were on going while India was working on MTCR (most likely) 
or
2) India started negotiation on SCALP after MTCR (high unlikely given the pace of Indian decision making on weapons procurement)
or
3) there is no SCALP involved in the deal 

SCALP range > 300 km (limit for MTCR non signatories)

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## Agent_47

Sliver said:


> @randomradio @PARIKRAMA
> 
> India would not get SCALP (storm shadow) unless its a signatory for MTCR. this would mean:
> 1) the negotiations for SCALP were on going while India was working on MTCR (most likely)
> or
> 2) India started negotiation on SCALP after MTCR (high unlikely given the pace of Indian decision making on weapons procurement)
> or
> 3) there is no SCALP involved in the deal
> 
> SCALP range > 300 km (limit for MTCR non signatories)


You do understand that we signed MTCR rite?

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## Dil Pakistan

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well JF 17 is a great achievement of Pakistan along with the help of China, I am not taking that away from you. It is a very good fighter capable of BVR and smart munitions and above all it is sanction free. But the problem with India is it is not a valid fighter in the present scenario that we are in. We need a fighter that has the reach and can execute more missions with longer time on air. The JF 17 suits Pakistan because of the smaller size of the country and can reach anywhere quickly..but India being a large country we need a mix of fighters to have the reach. We also have a large area in the Arabian sea and Indian Ocean to Patrol and police.
> 
> A fighter like JF 17 in India will be mostly used for point defence and not as a multirole aircraft. The Load carried by JF 17 is much smaller compared to the Rafale or the Mirage and hence it is not suitable for our air force.
> 
> The Rafale holds as much relevance as the Eurofighter typhoon even till 2050. India might be procuring the F3 variant along with the SPECTRA EW suite.



All your points are very fair and valid - I accept all of them.

My point was not to compare JF-17 with Rafale ....that would be irrational.

I was trying to point out that India took so much time to ink the deal to buy fighters that other countries managed to bring a brand new fighter from drawing board to skies - and reached to the next block (block-II) as well.



monitor said:


> Comparing a fourth generation fighter with Rafale is stupidity. You have forgotten by the time JF-17 block III arrive France will also bring more advance version of already deadly Rafale F3R2.so India will have the advantage unless you can induct more advance something.



How did you conclude that I am trying to compare Rafale and JF-17....????

Did you understand my point regarding India's delay to ink the deal



kaykay said:


> So you are comparing Rafale with JF-17. Anyway how many aircrafts did you Inducted in last 10-12 years? India Inducted 200+ Su-30MKIs. Its not like we were sitting idle with or without Rafale.



No I am not.

I am not comparing JF-17 with Rafale...that would be silly. I won't even compare Su30 with JF-17.

I am trying to highlight that the time India took to complete the deal to buy Rafales from a country; in the same time Pakistan and China brought a brand new jet from drawing board to the skies.

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## Sliver

Agent_47 said:


> You do understand that we signed MTCR rite?



Please check my earlier post in the same page. the MTCR was signed much later than the start of negotiations for the rafale. which means, if SCALP was on the table, there must be an implicit understanding to wait for MTCR

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## kaykay

Dil Pakistan said:


> All your points are very fair and valid - I accept all of them.
> 
> My point was not to compare JF-17 with Rafale ....that would be irrational.
> 
> I was trying to point out that India took so much time to ink the deal to buy fighters that other countries managed to bring a brand new fighter from drawing board to skies - and reached to the next block (block-II) as well.
> 
> 
> 
> How did you conclude that I am trying to compare Rafale and JF-17....????
> 
> Did you understand my point regarding India's delay to ink the deal
> 
> 
> 
> No I am not.
> 
> I am not comparing JF-17 with Rafale...that would be silly. I won't even compare Su30 with JF-17.
> 
> I am trying to highlight that the time India took to complete the deal to buy Rafales from a country; in the same time Pakistan and China brought a brand new jet from drawing board to the skies.


How is that possible? When MMRCA competition was floated in 2007, Jf-17 inducted in same year....Rafale came out winner of competition only in 2012 and negotiations followed afterwards.

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## Agent_47

Sliver said:


> Please check my earlier post in the same page. the MTCR was signed much later than the start of negotiations for the rafale. which means, if SCALP was on the table, there must be an implicit understanding to wait for MTCR


Weapon packages are always last part of the negotiation. SCALP is not a game changer to wait a multi billion dollar deal, Meteor proceeds the SCALP in terms of significance in the region.

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## Hellfire

jha said:


> If not 50, then 40 ? Still a very very big figure to invest importing a foreign plane.



Lets not buy it .. now what are the options?

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## PARIKRAMA

Interesting news in vernacular medium
*चीन के पास भी नहीं है जो मिसाइल, उससे लैस होंगे भारतीय फाइटर प्लेन*
By: नीरज राजपूत, एबीपी न्यूज | Last Updated: *Friday, 16 September 2016 9:09 AM*












नई दिल्ली : फ्रांस के साथ हुए सौदे में जो 36 राफेल फाइटर प्लेन भारत को मिलने वाले हैं. वे अत्याधुनिक हथियारों और मिसाइलों से लैस हैं. सबसे खास है दुनिया की सबसे घातक समझे जाने वाली हवा से हवा में मार करन वाली मेटेओर (METEOR) मिसाइल. ये मिसाइल चीन तो क्या किसी भी एशियाई देश के पास नहीं है. यानि राफेल प्लेन वाकई दक्षिण-एशिया में गेम-चेंजर साबित हो सकता है.

*सूत्रों से मिली जानकारी के मुताबिक, भारत ने राफेल सौदे में करीब 710 मिलियन यूरो (यानि करीब 5341 करोड़ रुपये) लड़ाकू विमानों के हथियारों पर खर्च किए हैं*. गौरतलब है कि पूरे सौदे की कीमत करीब 7.9 बिलियन यूरो है यानि करीब 59 हजार करोड़ रुपये. रक्षा मंत्री मनोहर पर्रीकर के मुताबिक, राफेल सौदा आखिरी चरण में है और आखिरी मुहर लगनी बाकी है.

*सौदे से जुड़े अधिकारियों के मुताबिक, सौदे का प्रारुप तैयार किया जा रहा है और अगले कुछ दिनों में सौदे की घोषणा कर दी जायेगी. अभी ये सौदा इंटर गर्वमेंटल कमेटी के पास फाइनल होने के लिए भेजा गया है. जानकारी के मुताबिक, वियोंड विज्युल रेंज ‘मेटेओर’ मिसाइल की रेंज करीब 150 किलोमीटर है.

हवा से हवा में मार करने वाली ये मिसाइल दुनिया की सबसे घातक हथियारों में गिनी जाती है. इसके अलावा राफेल फाइटर जेट लंबी दूरी की हवा से सतह में मार करने वाली स्कैल्प (SCALP) क्रूज मिसाइल और हवा से हवा में मार करने वाली माइका (MICA) मिसाइल से भी लैस है. सूत्रों के मुताबिक, राफेल प्लेन में एक और खासयित है.*

वो ये कि इसके पायलट के *हेलमेट में ही फाइटर प्लेन का पूरा डिस्पले सिस्टम होगा.* यानि उसे प्लेन के कॉकपिट में लगे सिस्टम को देखने की जरुरत भी नहीं पड़ेगी. उसका पूरा कॉकपिट का डिस्पले हेलमेट में होगा. माना जा रहा है कि सौदे पर स्टैंप लगने के बाद पहला प्लेन अगले 36 महीने में भारत पहुंच जायेगा.

*सभी 36 प्लेन अगले 66 महीने में भारतीय वायुसेना में शामिल होने के लिए तैयार हो जायेंगे. जानकारी के मुताबिक, राफेल बनाने वाली कंपनी से भारत ने ये भी सुनिश्चित कराया है कि एक समय में 75 प्रतिशत प्लेन हमेशा ऑपरेशनली-रेडी रहने चाहिए. इसके अलावा भारतीय जलवायु और लेह-लद्दाख जैसे इलाकों के लिए खास तरह के उपकरण लगाए गए हैं.*

*राफेल का फुल पैकेज कुछ इस तरह है. 36 विमानों की कीमत 3402 मिलियन यूरो, विमानों के स्पेयर पार्टस 1800 मिलियन यूरो के हैं, जबकि भारत के जलवायु के अनुरुप बनाने में खर्चा हुआ है 1700 मिलियन यूरो का. इसके अलवा पर्फोमेंस बेस्ड लॉजिस्टिक का खर्चा है करीब 353 मिलियन यूरो का.*

*Google translated*


New Delhi: French Rafale fighter planes in a deal with India is going to meet the 36. They are equipped with sophisticated weapons and missiles. Considered the world's deadliest, most notably the Meteor air-to-air missile with Karan (METEOR) missile.The missile then China does not have any Asian country. Rafael ie plane you can be game-changer in South Asia.

*According to sources, India had nearly 710 million euros in the deal Rafael (ie Rs 5341 crore) spent on weapons fighters.* The whole deal is worth nearly 7.9 billion euros, ie 59 thousand crore. According to Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, Rafael is in the final stage and final sealing the deal is yet to be utilized.

According to officials involved in the transaction, and the transaction is being prepared draft deal in the next few days will be declared. The final deal yet to be sent to the Committee on Inter's Grwmentl. *According to information, Beyond Visual range "Meteor" missile has a range of about 150 km.*

*Air-to-air missile missile is counted in the world's deadliest weapons. Also Rafael fighter jet to shoot long-range air-to-surface Scalp (SCALP) cruise missiles and air-to-air missile Mica (MICA) is also equipped with missiles. *According to sources, the Rafale plane Khasyit another.

She only fighter planes in the whole of its pilot's helmet display system. That was in the cockpit of the plane will not even need to look at the system. The display will be in the cockpit of his or her helmet. It is believed that after the first plane hit the stamp on the deal in the next 36 months will reach India.

All 36 planes in the next 66 months will be ready to join the Indian Air Force. *According to information, maker Rafale, India has also made sure that 75 percent of the time the plane should always be Operationai-ready. Leh-Ladakh region of the Indian climate and the kind of equipment have been installed.*

*Rafale is the full package. 3402 Million cost of 36 aircrafts, aircraft spare parts 1800 million euros, while enabling climate in India has cost 1700 million euros. Besides the cost of logistics is based Performance nearly 353 million euros.*

http://abpnews.abplive.in/india-news/full-update-of-rafale-fighter-jet-456642/

*Kindly excuse the poor translation of google translate*

So as per news ABPlive its

Euro 3.4Bn aircraft
Spares -Euro 1.8 Bn
Climatic customizations Euro 1.7 Bn
Weapons 0.710Bn comprising of Meteor, Scalp, Mica
Logistics based performance 0.353 Bn






https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-327#post-8688450

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## kaykay

^^ So actual cost of 36 Rafales are 3.42 Billion Euros. Just aircrafts!!!

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## Aero

2 Million/missile , Hope it performs as it is priced


PARIKRAMA said:


> Interesting news
> 
> Euro 3.4Bn aircraft
> Spares -Euro 1.8 Bn
> Climatic customizations Euro 1.7 Bn
> Weapons 0.710Bn comprising of Meteor, Scalp, Mica
> Logistics based performance 0.353 Bn


*Rafale Deal will Probably be Signed on 23 September 
*
India is close to finalising a long-delayed deal *to buy 36 fighter jets from France's Dassault *Aviation, a defence ministry official said on Thursday, with the cabinet set to meet next week to agree a price.

According to a media report, India had agreed to pay *7.87 billion euros ($8.84 billion) *for the jets and *would sign the deal on September 23.*

There have been several leaks to the press this year that a deal had been reached that proved to be premature, as the two sides haggled over price and other terms of the deal.

A senior defence ministry official, who asked not to be named because he is not authorised to speak with the media, said cabinet committee on security would meet on Wednesday to discuss the deal.

"We expect to sign the deal once the cabinet approves," the official said.

A defence ministry spokesman said he was not aware of any specific date for signing but admitted that a cabinet meeting was scheduled for next Wednesday. Dassault's spokesman declined to comment.

President Francois Hollande and Prime Minister Narendra Modi intervened in the procurement for the Rafale jets in 2015, ordering government-to-government talks after several years of commercial negotiations with Dassault had collapsed.

The leaders agreed to scale back an original plan to buy 126 Rafale planes to just 36 in flyaway condition to meet the Indian Air Force's urgent needs as it tries to modernise and face an assertive China and long-time foe Pakistan.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...gned-on-september-23/articleshow/54350674.cms

(Yesterday's Article/If i am reposting please tell me)

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## Agent_47

The whole ideal of 36 off the shelf purchase was rapid induction. And now they are saying first plane will only arrive in 2019?! 

$ 1.7 Billion for integration and customizations ? Why does it cost this much ? Do we have to pay for every modifications like this for further orders ? Do we get the capability to do customizations in house ?

Is the engine upgrade confirmed ?

@PARIKRAMA @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay

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## BON PLAN

R!CK said:


> Bro, you keep going to data from 2013. This is no more relevant. I once again urge you to go through Dassault data published from mid of this year.
> 
> *2015-December*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *2016-July*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The current French backlog is for 34 jets. 2 more units will join the fleet this year and a further 1 unit in 2017. Year 2018, French confirmed backlog will be 31 units. Now when and where these will be delivered, we don't know. But this 31 units for France is confirmed and not cut back.
> 
> P.S: The Fanboy in me wants you to be right but the professional in me puts a big question mark on your statements. No offence.
> 
> 
> 
> Qatar original requirement was for 72 F-15s which is awaiting Pentagon approval for ages. Very similar to Kuwait awaiting F/A 18 - SH approval from pentagon.
> 
> Running out of patience, Qatar ordered 24 Rafales with an option clause for further 12 for a possible future fleet of 36 rafales. The number was limited to 24/36 only because Qatar still prefers the F-15s over rafale. A future fleet of Qatar may comprise, 36 Rafales & 36 F-15s. Unless, Boeing deal goes downhill and the F-15s get denied to Qatar (close to impossible), then Qatar may open a new order for similar number of 24 + 12 units options if not more.
> 
> _"The Pentagon and the State Department have been considering the sale of 36 Boeing F-15 fighter jets to Qatar valued at around $4 billion. They are also considering the sale of 28 F/A- 18E/F Super Hornets, plus options for 12 more, to Kuwait in a deal valued at around $3 billion."_
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-qatar-usa-jets-idUSKCN1175GQ
> 
> Good Day!


I'm very surprised about the famous 72 fighters for Qatar....
From the 12 fighters today to 72...... It's strange. For me the final number will be 48. And where to find pilots?

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## cerberus

Aero said:


> 2 Million/missile , Hope it performs as it is priced

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## Aero

Where to focus my comment , F-35 or Meteor ?
I never said it is bad missile as it is not even properly used/tested but still it is costly.
Hope it perform very well against newer enemy aircraft .


cerberus said:


>

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## BON PLAN

zambino said:


> What about Brimstone missile? Iaf will get it or not? If not which air to ground missile india will buy? Maverick??


Brimstone is a direct derivativ of Maverick. In better.

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## PARIKRAMA

Agent_47 said:


> The whole ideal of 36 off the shelf purchase was rapid induction. And now they are saying first plane will only arrive in 2019?!
> 
> $ 1.7 Billion for integration and customizations ? Why does it cost this much ? Do we have to pay for every modifications like this for further orders ? Do we get the capability to do customizations in house ?
> 
> Is the engine upgrade confirmed ?
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay


The main heading under Customization has details regarding

Indian Weapons
Requisite Thrust (an indication to the engine uprating)
Indian Specific Training and Simulators
High Altitude Customizations
Hot Desert weather customizations
Anti Corrosion /harsh weather customizations
Others which are not told to me surely
The news report mentioned only one thing and in all probability rest pointers were not leaked.

Its a similar case for Spares for Euro 1.8 Bn which is impractical. rather it was Engg Support package + basic infra for base creation.

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## BON PLAN

Sliver said:


> @randomradio @PARIKRAMA
> 
> India would not get SCALP (storm shadow) unless its a signatory for MTCR. this would mean:
> 1) the negotiations for SCALP were on going while India was working on MTCR (most likely)
> or
> 2) India started negotiation on SCALP after MTCR (high unlikely given the pace of Indian decision making on weapons procurement)
> or
> 3) there is no SCALP involved in the deal
> 
> SCALP range > 300 km (limit for MTCR non signatories)


You forget the possible integration of a smaller Brahmos. In this case do India need SCALP? not sure.

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## PARIKRAMA

kaykay said:


> ^^ So actual cost of 36 Rafales are 3.42 Billion Euros. Just aircrafts!!!


No not aircraft.
Its aircraft+cost escalation+deferred payment cost+ other financial package costs all clubbed together.
I earlier said its Euro 2.7 Bn + financial package cost Euro 0.5Bn. They must have added some more sub headings to round it upto Euro 3.4 Bn. At this price flyaway is Euro 94 Mn or $103 Mn and i gave this yesterday only





https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-335#post-8689700

Now present price is superior to MMRCA price of $85 Mn so its clear other figures are clubbed onto this

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## cerberus

Aero said:


> Where to focus my comment , F-35 or Meteor ?
> I never said it is bad missile as it is not even properly used/tested but still it is costly.
> Hope it perform very well against newer enemy aircraft .


Only posted this image that its Next gen missile compatible to 5th gen .

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## Picdelamirand-oil



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## Aero

cerberus said:


> Only posted this image that its Next gen missile compatible to 5th gen .


We will only be able to use one side datalink with Rafale not as with F-35's Two way.

PS:I am hoping for best, it is indeed good as for Specs go,rest after combat usage, I like the *60 Km+ No escape zone *of meteor.


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## Agent_47

BON PLAN said:


> You forget the possible integration of a smaller Brahmos. In this case do India need SCALP? not sure.


Brahmos-NG is just a concept, development work has not started.

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## Abingdonboy

jha said:


> If not 50, then 40 ? Still a very very big figure to invest importing a foreign plane.


Again, the figures here are all made up we cannot know for sure nor can anyone be clear what India is actually getting for the vast sums ( strategic tech will be coming as per the confidential IGA). Having said that, we DO know that Dassualt will invest 50% back into India so every other dollar is coming back to India and will go to highly advantageous areas (engine, ecosystem etc) so it makes no sense to consider this purely as an import with all the money outgoing. 

In today's age top end tech is VERY expensive but that is the cost for quality, in the end India is one of the lowest defence spenders (as a proportion of GDP) in the world and it will spend many times its defence budget on infrastructure, healthcare, education, welfare etc etc. 

The cost is justified to safeguard the very idea of India let alone it's 1.25++ BILLION citizens. 

You pay peanuts you get monkeys.

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## Armani

I like the sound this deal is making nowadays. @PARIKRAMA Thanks much!






^^ Yes, I'll take that.





^^ This too...





^^ Don't wanna leave this out either...

Oh and don't forget naval Rafale...





How much French is too much? Well, it seems Indian armed forces want to find out! Meanwhile, I'm waiting for the opportune moment to order a cake...to celebrate the conclusion of Rafale deal, at last!

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## [Bregs]

Abingdonboy said:


> Again, the figures here are all made up we cannot know for sure nor can anyone be clear what India is actually getting
> The cost is justified to safeguard the very idea of India let alone it's 1.25++ BILLION citizens.
> 
> *You pay peanuts you get monkeys*.

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## Abingdonboy

Dil Pakistan said:


> I am trying to highlight that the time India took to complete the deal to buy Rafales from a country; in the same time Pakistan and China brought a brand new jet from drawing board to the skies.


Ignoring the blatant whitewashing of history here and skewing of timelines my only thought is.....so what? What point are you trying to prove? 

At the end of the day, regardless of the timescales involved, the IAF is going to induct hundreds of Rafales (along with hundreds of LCA, MKI and FGFA) and the PAF Hundreds of JF-17, I ask you what side will be more satisfied with their actions?

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## halupridol

hellfire said:


> Lets not buy it .. now what are the options?


N parrikar said mmrca was too costly

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## Armani

Abingdonboy said:


> Ignoring the blatant whitewashing of history here and skewing of timelines my only thought is.....so what? What point are you trying to prove?
> 
> At the end of the day, regardless of the timescales involved, the IAF is going to induct hundreds of Rafales (along with hundreds of LCA, MKI and FGFA) and the PAF Hundreds of JF-17, I ask you what side will be more satisfied with their actions?



Let's not even get started on the whole J-10B/FC-20 drama. It's far better to competitively evaluate + select an aircraft, and then see it through to the final stages of the deal, than to make claptrap about an imaginary purchase, and then drop it entirely altogether.

In the time the other side managed to work on 1 project and build some 50 planes (some of them came from China actually), we initiated 4-5 jet fighter projects, and built over 200 Sukhois in India (just 1 type), more to come. And that's not even including the other projects that are yet to materialize.

Those ~50 JF-17s licensed production are the only fighter planes ever built in Pakistan. But since 1950s, India has built nearly 1,000+ fighter airframes of various types. There is no comparison.

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## Abingdonboy

hellfire said:


> Lets not buy it .. now what are the options?


Moan about the depletion of the IAF's SQN strength and chastise the Indian leadership for failing to secure the deal! 

You can't please some people but one can trust that this GoI has its nation's interests at heart (finally).



Armani said:


> Let's not even get started on the whole J-10B/FC-20 drama. It's far better to competitively evaluate + select an aircraft, and then see it through to the final stages of the deal, than to make claptrap about an imaginary purchase, and then drop it entirely altogether.
> 
> In the time the other side managed to work on 1 project and build some 50 planes (some of them came from China actually), we initiated 4-5 jet fighter projects, and built over 200 Sukhois in India (just 1 type), more to come. And that's not even including the other projects that are yet to materialize.
> 
> Those ~50 JF-17s licensed production are the only fighter planes ever built in Pakistan. But since 1950s, India has built nearly 1,000+ fighter airframes of various types. There is no comparison.


Let the children continue to delude themselves and keep making these false equivelencies. I bet many of them console themselves that the IAF is transforming itself into one of the finest AFs on the face of the earth simply because they have to with the PAF being so mighty. When in reality the Rafale is going to be based almost entirely in the East and central India, the Western front has not been a worry for the IAF for decades.

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## R!CK

BON PLAN said:


> I'm very surprised about the famous 72 fighters for Qatar....
> From the 12 fighters today to 72...... It's strange. For me the final number will be 48. And where to find pilots?



The answer lies in the history of UAE air force. An air force with a small fleet and high number of foreign pilots in the past, happens to be one of the biggest air force in the middle-east after KSA and with an all national pilot force which even KSA can't boast of.

In Middle-East, money makes things happen. I can tell you, when Qatar or UAE needs jets, last thing they will worry about is finding pilots. They might be more worried about what camo to put on the jet than abt finding people to fly them.

Good Day!

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## Sliver

BON PLAN said:


> You forget the possible integration of a smaller Brahmos. In this case do India need SCALP? not sure.



the SCALP will already be customized to whatever the french are supplying, while the brahmos will have to be modified to fit the rafale. other than that, the SCALP seems to have a longer range than the Brahmos?

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## A.P. Richelieu

R!CK said:


> Gripen is good for its price. A good option for all the countries that can't afford twin-engine jet's operational/acquisition costs. A good option for countries that needs a credible fighter but at a lower budget.
> 
> A good option for a country with an indigenous single engine jet? A good option for a country that operates over 400 twin-engine jets and has an indigenous single engine jet to handle point defense? Maybe not. There is absolutely no place for a country like India to import a single engine jet because the country simply doesn't require a single engine jet to be an all rounder super beast? If idea was to have a single engine best of best aircraft, lets buy 500 Gripens and sell our Su-30s and Mig-29s?
> 
> P.S: SAAB is willing to share GAN AESA for Indian grippen deal but itself use Italian Selex AESA radar on their jets? Lol
> 
> Good Day!



The GaN radar currently available is on the Giraffe 4A located on a truck.
It allows significant longer range than GaA based radars, which can be used
to detect stealth aircrafts much sooner,
Combined with the Gripen datalink it is possible that the stealth aircraft may be shot down,
before it detects the Gripen patrol.

A Gripen version of GaN radar is not ready yet, so such radar would delay Gripen E.
For the planned induction date of MII, it is feasable, and would be a nice part of MLU for
near term Gripen E customers.

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## randomradio

Sliver said:


> @randomradio @PARIKRAMA
> 
> India would not get SCALP (storm shadow) unless its a signatory for MTCR. this would mean:
> 1) the negotiations for SCALP were on going while India was working on MTCR (most likely)
> or
> 2) India started negotiation on SCALP after MTCR (high unlikely given the pace of Indian decision making on weapons procurement)
> or
> 3) there is no SCALP involved in the deal
> 
> SCALP range > 300 km (limit for MTCR non signatories)



We do not know the weapons mix for the Rafale.

India will most likely have a separate tender out for LACMs. MBDA has replied to the initial RFI with the Taurus.



Dil Pakistan said:


> I was trying to point out that India took so much time to ink the deal to buy fighters that other countries managed to bring a brand new fighter from drawing board to skies - and reached to the next block (block-II) as well.



Both MKI and JF-17 started at the same time. While you are talking about different blocks, we are about to finish production of the MKI and start the MLU process.


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## A.P. Richelieu

PARIKRAMA said:


> No not aircraft.
> Its aircraft+cost escalation+deferred payment cost+ other financial package costs all clubbed together.
> I earlier said its Euro 2.7 Bn + financial package cost Euro 0.5Bn. They must have added some more sub headings to round it upto Euro 3.4 Bn. At this price flyaway is Euro 94 Mn or $103 Mn and i gave this yesterday only
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-335#post-8689700
> 
> Now present price is superior to MMRCA price of $85 Mn so its clear other figures are clubbed onto this



Sweden will pay around $72M per Gripen E.

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> No not aircraft.
> Its aircraft+cost escalation+deferred payment cost+ other financial package costs all clubbed together.
> I earlier said its Euro 2.7 Bn + financial package cost Euro 0.5Bn. They must have added some more sub headings to round it upto Euro 3.4 Bn. At this price flyaway is Euro 94 Mn or $103 Mn and i gave this yesterday only
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-335#post-8689700
> 
> Now present price is superior to MMRCA price of $85 Mn so its clear other figures are clubbed onto this



The MMRCA bid price was for MMRCA specs, not for F3R, let alone customized version.

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## A.P. Richelieu

4GTejasBVR said:


> I don't think India will license produce a fighter with 30 years of delay.



No need to license from abroad what can be done (and has been done) internally.
A GaN radar with Gripen E formfactor should be available when MII aircraft are supposed to be delivered.

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## BON PLAN

A.P. Richelieu said:


> A world where professional project management ensures products can be delivered on time...


Lockeed Martin is not Professional so.

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## Taygibay

Aero said:


> I like the *60 Km+ No escape zone *of meteor.



Hum!? Try 115km+ as the Meteor NEZ. High/Med PK to 185 Km.



Sliver said:


> other than that, the SCALP seems to have a longer range than the Brahmos?



How could we know, really? The difference is mostly MTCR induced.
Check this piece about the Black Shaheens.
http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/204051/saudi-arabia-storm-shadow-the-mtcr/
This sale could be problematic too.

India too got a reduced range but under the form of a different missile altogether.
And yet, if the Slavs are your friends, they could have forgotten an upgrade manual
in one of the crates?

So 500km+ down to - 300km but possibly back up to who knows where is the idea.

PariK bro, some upgrades can be hidden in the fly-away cost in _opt. but std_ kits.

And Agent47, any modification from new bomb to HCMS requires a lot of high pay
grade man-hours to test all combinations. This part called integration is needed for
safety. If india decided it wanted one modif, the price would be low. 5 cost more. etc







​Good evening all, Tay.

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## jha

hellfire said:


> Lets not buy it .. now what are the options?



How about buying another another 100 MKIs in Super-30 config and integrate Meteor/Scalp/Brahmos-NG? Will not cost more than 12-15 Billion dollars.. Invest rest in Kaveri/AMCA programs ...? 

I am not an expert like other members here. So, another 40 Billion does seem to be astronomical amount of money to spend on a foreign plane.



Abingdonboy said:


> Again, the figures here are all made up we cannot know for sure nor can anyone be clear what India is actually getting for the vast sums ( strategic tech will be coming as per the confidential IGA). Having said that, we DO know that Dassualt will invest 50% back into India so every other dollar is coming back to India and will go to highly advantageous areas (engine, ecosystem etc) so it makes no sense to consider this purely as an import with all the money outgoing.
> 
> In today's age top end tech is VERY expensive but that is the cost for quality, in the end India is one of the lowest defence spenders (as a proportion of GDP) in the world and it will spend many times its defence budget on infrastructure, healthcare, education, welfare etc etc.
> 
> The cost is justified to safeguard the very idea of India let alone it's 1.25++ BILLION citizens.
> 
> You pay peanuts you get monkeys.



So, Dassault will invest $20 Billion here ? Wonder where will that go..

Now Kaveri obviously will come online with their help in-lieu of their commitment with regards to current purchases. Why not start working on AMCA ?

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## Agent_47

Taygibay said:


> And Agent47, any modification from new bomb to HCMS requires a lot of high pay
> grade man-hours to test all combinations. This part called integration is needed for
> safety. If india decided it wanted one modif, the price would be low. 5 cost more. etc


I get that, but do we have to pay these kind of amount every time we integrate something new ?

I don't see we integrating Astra or any other pro indian weapons for such a small order. Lightning,HMDS maybe spice thats it. @PARIKRAMA mentioned modifications for 'harsh climate conditions', Why do we pay for that kind of stuff? So that you can sell this modified planes to 'hot and cold' countries like UAE? This costs more than what dassault asked for changes to UAE requirements. Spending $4 billion of FGFA makes more sense, atleast we get some IPs and experience.

@BON PLAN @Picdelamirand-oil

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Agent_47 said:


> I get that, but do we have to pay these kind of amount every time we integrate something new ?
> 
> I don't see we integrating Astra or any other pro indian weapons for such a small order. Lightning,HMDS maybe spice thats it. @PARIKRAMA mentioned modifications for 'harsh climate conditions', Why do we pay for that kind of stuff? So that you can sell this modified planes to 'hot and cold' countries like UAE? This costs more than what dassault asked for changes to UAE requirements. Spending $4 billion of FGFA makes more sense, atleast we get some IPs and experience.
> 
> @BON PLAN @Picdelamirand-oil


For the moment nobody know what will be the cost of UAE configuration. From what @PARIKRAMA said, it seems that you have choosen to get a very high level of availability whatever are the condition, Hot, high altitude, sand... So you need some special approach.

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## Agent_47

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> For the moment nobody know what will be the cost of UAE configuration. From what @PARIKRAMA said, it seems that you have choosen to get a very high level of availability whatever are the condition, Hot, high altitude, sand... So you need some special approach.





> On Dec. 30, France launched a program worth some €1 billion (US $1.06 billion) to upgrade the Rafale F3 to the F3R standard by 2018. The new version will fire the MBDA Meteor long-range air-to-air missile, a laser version of the Sagem Armement Air Sol Modulaire powered smart bomb, and carry a Thales new-generation laser targeting pod, dubbed Talios, to succeed the present Damocles. The AESA RBE2 radar and Spectra electronic warfare system will also be improved.


The whole upgrade to F3R standard cost €1 billion and we pay $1.7 billion for hot/high + lightning + HMDS ?! 
Something is not right, lets wait for full details. If these numbers are true DM is up for a lot of scrutiny.

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## Hellfire

@jha Will take you on a short journey of rationality so that you answer your own questions ..... please bear with me 



jha said:


> How about buying another another 100 MKIs in Super-30



What will be the cost of another 100 Su-30 MKIs, with their planned upgrade to Super Sukhoi? What shall be the overall LCC costs on overall Sukhoi LCC? As also the additional costs in increasing the present reserve costs and infrastructure upgradation? Have you factored in the costs of these issues and do they turn out to be much 'cheaper' per unit for these additional 100 pieces? In what ways do these 100 meet/surpass and not meet/surpass rafale's capability?



jha said:


> config and integrate Meteor/Scalp/Brahmos-NG? Will not cost more than 12-15 Billion dollars.. Invest rest in Kaveri/AMCA programs ...?



I am sure the breakdown of the whole deal will tell you the cost of aircrafts being approx 3.4 billion euros. The rest going towards creation of infrastructure and weapons suite/avionics as per own specifications and modifications as we want them. So, your armament of Meteor is there, does Brahmos NG meet the criterion of Meteor? Or is Brahmos NG a different weapon for a different role?

What has happened to Kaveri? How long has it been in development and how successful has it been?

how early do you expect AMCA to be airborne? Has LCA been inducted in a squadron strength and is it now frontline combat aircraft after three and a half decades?

Why, in your opinion, did we buy T-90s and not Arjun in 1999 (although Arjun today is a formidable tank) and why do you think that we retrospectively ordered to buy ACs and additional protection suites AFTER paying to get them removed in the first case?

What is your opinion on Indians building a shed for the Phalcon AWACS which are too small and hence they are parked in open where their rotodome has to be looked after from elements?

Why, in your opinion, did we allow US to build integrated state of the art access controlled shelters for C-130s in Hindon and not sub-contract to our own people? And why, in your opinion, did US specifically prohibit maintenance and modifications by India and build it into the contract whereby any tampering will leave the warranty of the platform null and void?

What do you think is the reason for IA building Air conditioned warehouses for storage of ATGMs?

The answers to all these will give you a broad picture. Specifically, the issue has been discussed to death here. You just need to read back.



jha said:


> *I am not an expert like other members here.* So, another 40 Billion does seem to be astronomical amount of money to spend on a foreign plane.



The forty billion is in technology absorption, the number of platforms and the associated ancillaries. Otherwise, every time one would need to re-enter contract negotiations.

The underlined and bold part is very pertinent. 

Intelligence gathering operations and expert 'information' has one thing in common - the ability to collate the data and make sense of it.

The information that you seek to clarify your doubts exists in this forum and this thread itself. It is only a question of your joining the dots and making a sense for yourself.

I suggest you do that, you would have answered your own questions/queries about this project and in the process will be a better informed member and citizen too.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Agent_47 said:


> The whole upgrade to F3R standard cost €1 billion and we pay $1.7 billion for hot/high + lightning + HMDS ?!
> Something is not right, lets wait for full details. If these numbers are true DM is up for a lot of scrutiny.


Seems that there is also an upgrade of M-88 and integration of some weapons.

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## Abingdonboy

jha said:


> How about buying another another 100 MKIs in Super-30 config and integrate Meteor/Scalp/Brahmos-NG? Will not cost more than 12-15 Billion dollars.. Invest rest in Kaveri/AMCA programs ...?
> 
> I am not an expert like other members here. So, another 40 Billion does seem to be astronomical amount of money to spend on a foreign plane.
> 
> 
> 
> So, Dassault will invest $20 Billion here ? Wonder where will that go..
> 
> Now Kaveri obviously will come online with their help in-lieu of their commitment with regards to current purchases. Why not start working on AMCA ?


There is a basic flaw in the argument for anyone pushing the Super MKI (leaving aside it is far from a perfect substitute for the Rafale and even after this deep upgrade will remain primarily a air dominance fighter) over the Rafale in that they assume that it is the cheaper option.

Whilst it is true that a significant proportion of this Rafale deal is being spent on building state of the art infrastructure that already exists for the MKI in India, the simple fact of the matter is the flyaway cost of the Super MKI is actually likely to be quite a bit more than the price being offered to India for the Rafale (this is before any price reductions when localised manufacturing commences). Secondly, even if the Super MKI was matching the Rafale in upfront cost (or marginally less) it will be FAR more expensive to fly, maintain and operate throughout its 30-40 year lifespan with the IAF.

A general rule of thumb that can be applied is that a Western military product will cost 3-4 times its initial price to maintain over the course of its lifespan, Russian equipment can be 5-6 times as costly. There is a reason why Russia has lost EVERY single open contract in India in recent times where Lifecycle cost analysis has been utilised (Aerial refuellers, heavy attack helo, heavy lift helo, RSH etc etc).

A simple illustration of this would be in the power plants of the respective fighters, here I'll assume the Super MKI is powered by the same engine as the current fleet. Whilst the M88 used on the Rafale has a total life span of around 4,000 hours, the AL-31 on the MKI has only 1,500 hours meaning that over the TTL of the MKI (6,000 hours) an MKI would used 4 sets (8 in total) of engines assuming the same TTL for the Rafale (although it could be more I'm not sure @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil ) the Rafale would only have used 2 sets (4 total) and there would still be around 50% life left in the second set of M88.

Considering the power plant of any fighter is easily the highest single cost item these costs when considered over a fleet of hundreds translates into MASSIVE expenditure totalling billions. Keeping with the engine topic, for 60-70% of the cost of the AL-31 the M88 offers 400% more performance. Extrapolate this across other elements and it is clear it is not as easy a case to make (more MKI vs inducting the Rafale).


As I have said, in this day and age modern military tech is very expensive there is no escaping this reality.

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## BON PLAN

Agent_47 said:


> The whole upgrade to F3R standard cost €1 billion and we pay $1.7 billion for hot/high + lightning + HMDS ?!
> Something is not right, lets wait for full details. If these numbers are true DM is up for a lot of scrutiny.


The detail of the whole cost is unknown. It's only assumption from some of us.
Maybe these costs hide something else....

And if I remember well, F3R doesn't include a helmet... Seems that French air force doesn't trust on HMD so far.

Integrating Astra, Ligntning pod, russian missiles or bombs cost a lot.

What is quite sure is that the total number of Rafale in IAF can't stay at 36.

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## jha

hellfire said:


> @jha Will take you on a short journey of rationality so that you answer your own questions ..... please bear with me
> 
> 
> 
> What will be the cost of another 100 Su-30 MKIs, with their planned upgrade to Super Sukhoi? What shall be the overall LCC costs on overall Sukhoi LCC? As also the additional costs in increasing the present reserve costs and infrastructure upgradation? Have you factored in the costs of these issues and do they turn out to be much 'cheaper' per unit for these additional 100 pieces? In what ways do these 100 meet/surpass and not meet/surpass rafale's capability?
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure the breakdown of the whole deal will tell you the cost of aircrafts being approx 3.4 billion euros. The rest going towards creation of infrastructure and weapons suite/avionics as per own specifications and modifications as we want them. So, your armament of Meteor is there, does Brahmos NG meet the criterion of Meteor? Or is Brahmos NG a different weapon for a different role?
> 
> What has happened to Kaveri? How long has it been in development and how successful has it been?
> 
> how early do you expect AMCA to be airborne? Has LCA been inducted in a squadron strength and is it now frontline combat aircraft after three and a half decades?
> 
> Why, in your opinion, did we buy T-90s and not Arjun in 1999 (although Arjun today is a formidable tank) and why do you think that we retrospectively ordered to buy ACs and additional protection suites AFTER paying to get them removed in the first case?
> 
> What is your opinion on Indians building a shed for the Phalcon AWACS which are too small and hence they are parked in open where their rotodome has to be looked after from elements?
> 
> Why, in your opinion, did we allow US to build integrated state of the art access controlled shelters for C-130s in Hindon and not sub-contract to our own people? And why, in your opinion, did US specifically prohibit maintenance and modifications by India and build it into the contract whereby any tampering will leave the warranty of the platform null and void?
> 
> What do you think is the reason for IA building Air conditioned warehouses for storage of ATGMs?
> 
> The answers to all these will give you a broad picture. Specifically, the issue has been discussed to death here. You just need to read back.
> 
> 
> 
> The forty billion is in technology absorption, the number of platforms and the associated ancillaries. Otherwise, every time one would need to re-enter contract negotiations.
> 
> The underlined and bold part is very pertinent.
> 
> Intelligence gathering operations and expert 'information' has one thing in common - the ability to collate the data and make sense of it.
> 
> The information that you seek to clarify your doubts exists in this forum and this thread itself. It is only a question of your joining the dots and making a sense for yourself.
> 
> I suggest you do that, you would have answered your own questions/queries about this project and in the process will be a better informed member and citizen too.



In nutshell, we should be ready to spend $40-50 Billion dollars on ~150(?) odd planes because we obviously are not intelligent enough to build even sheds for Phalcons. Good enough for me.

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## Abingdonboy

jha said:


> In nutshell, we should be ready to spend $40-50 Billion dollars on ~150(?) odd planes because we obviously are not intelligent enough to build even sheds for Phalcons. Good enough for me.


Bro, please stop making up figures, it doesn't allow for a constructive discussion at all.

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## jha

Abingdonboy said:


> There is a basic flaw in the argument for anyone pushing the Super MKI (leaving aside it is far from a perfect substitute for the Rafale and even after this deep upgrade will remain primarily a air dominance fighter) over the Rafale in that they assume that it is the cheaper option.
> 
> Whilst it is true that a significant proportion of this Rafale deal is being spent on building state of the art infrastructure that already exists for the MKI in India, *the simple fact of the matter is the flyaway cost of the Super MKI is actually likely to be quite a bit more than the price being offered to India for the Rafale* (this is before any price reductions when localised manufacturing commences). Secondly, even if the Super MKI was matching the Rafale in upfront cost (or marginally less) it will be FAR more expensive to fly, maintain and operate throughout its 30-40 year lifespan with the IAF.



Thats debatable. We are making MKIs in India, while the Rafales are coming from France. MII Rafale will undoubtedly cost more, much more. Not to forget the time it will take to establish a new Rafale Assembly line. If MII deal for Rafale is finalized by 2018, we will see first plane rolling off in 2023-2024.

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## Indrajit

Abingdonboy said:


> Bro, please stop making up figures, it doesn't allow for a constructive discussion at all.



Everybody is making up figures, some do it on the number of jets_ "guaranteed" _to be bought and others then have to come with the figures for the money which that will require _(which the first lot simply acts like doesn't matter). _As long as arbitrary figures get thrown about, no point in trying to say that only one side has a copyright on that.

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## jha

Abingdonboy said:


> Bro, please stop making up figures, it doesn't allow for a constructive discussion at all.



Do you have a figure with you ? I am simply multiplying the current deal. Because MII will definitely cost more than current lot.



Abingdonboy said:


> As I have said, in this day and age modern military tech is very expensive there is no escaping this reality.



I agree wit your point that we should be ready to pay more for best available tech. I even agree with one time purchase of 36 Rafales as offset clause will probably help us with K-10/K-9 and we will be able to assess much vaunted Spectra.
What I cant come to terms with is, that we are ready to establish assembly line for for such expensive aircrafts. Which certainly will put strain on other programs.

Anyway my POV seems to extremely unpopular here. So I'll stop posting on this topic of cost.

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## Wet Shirt Contest

PARIKRAMA said:


> The main heading under Customization has details regarding
> 
> *Indian Weapons*
> *Requisite Thrust (an indication to the engine uprating)*
> Indian Specific Training and Simulators
> *High Altitude Customizations*
> *Hot Desert weather customizations*
> *Anti Corrosion /harsh weather customizations*
> Others which are not told to me surely
> The news report mentioned only one thing and in all probability rest pointers were not leaked.
> 
> Its a similar case for Spares for Euro 1.8 Bn which is impractical. rather it was Engg Support package + basic infra for base creation.




Can you explain the highlighted points in detail or point me towards some links, older threads etc, thankyou for your patience, goodday.

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## A.P. Richelieu

BON PLAN said:


> Lockeed Martin is not Professional so.



If professional project management means delivering in time, within cost,
then they have proven they are not.,
but it was not LM I was thinking of.


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## Hellfire

jha said:


> In nutshell, we should be ready to spend $40-50 Billion dollars on ~150(?) odd planes because we obviously are not intelligent enough to build even sheds for Phalcons. Good enough for me.




Not exactly. It has more to do with the disconnect between the user and the technology developer. The exclusivity of OFB and Defence PSUs has rendered a situation wherein the equipment we required yesterday is being conceptualised today. Since any equipment being inducted into armed forces takes around a decade to complete its induction, and in the process the process of modification is undertaken as per the dynamism of user requirements and feedbacks, the disconnect, coupled to administrative issues from release of funds to earmarking the defence PSU at times based on the trade unions demand (recall the strike by dockyard workers for giving construction of few vessels to private shipyards?), and other issues renders a situation wherein we have today been left with a grappling shortage in our equipment portfolio.

I can elucidate a number of reasons and give you examples (an absurd one being a strategic forces unit being denied funds for a boundary wall for its location as it is a 'new' raising and is 'ad-hoc', not having been regularised over the past few years!!), but some may be downright inappropriate for the public forums. And it shall be off topic in the thread. Let us just assume that the present state of the affairs has been over decades and not over a few months and steps to rectify the same are bing undertaken. But that shall take time. In the meanwhile the potential adversary is not waiting for us to catch up. We need to close the gap and keep it manageable till as such time that we have our MIC in order and performing.

Lets hope for the best. I can understand your frustrations. But the irony of things can be gauged from the fact that Kanpur manufactures the Kevlar that is exported for BP vests/jackets and used by western armies and we are yet to 'authorise' it to 100% troops. At present only 70% troops in CI grid authorised and that too is not available in authorised amounts!!!

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## PARIKRAMA

If I have to assume some figures for future MII. It can be simplified in a lucid manner.

Suppose assume it's 10 more squadrons each with say 20 crafts just for ease of computation

If I assume a similar with escalation and milestone loaded with weapons as well than its approx Euro 110Mn even though I should see a general reduction and targeted cost under Make in india is assumed in the range of 520-580cr with median of 540 crs. But still leta consider based on present deal numbers only for our sake.

So 200 air crafts is Euro 22Bn including g all weapons

10squad means. 5 bases so around Euro 0.7x5 = Euro 3.5 Bn

Even if suppose it's either 1Bn or even say full 10 bases it will be Euro 10Bn

Engg support in all other forms and if you consider all other packages add another 40 Mn per bird or Euro 8Bn

So ballpark figure does comes out to Euro 33.5Bn to Euro 40Bn

So @jha you have thought a descent figure.

In case suppose it's Su30MKI super config it will be say approx 10-20% cheaper owing to most costs already sunk and weapons and infra which would be more or less only in high economy of scales point of view. But what it actually negates is

CPFH cost where Rafale cost is$ 9.7K versus MKI according to IAF $12k and most generally it's more bcz some points are not added for MKI as per IAF differentiation of cost under different heads. Mirage as per IAF was just $3k. And all that are pasted here in this thread by me and by folks like @Vergennes and @Picdelamirand-oil . That's basically a straight forward saying of 20-40% saving over lifetime.
The engine durability and maintenance free nature and ease of repair due to modules actually help a lot in improving downtime issues.
Number of engines required over lifetime is much lesser in Rafales as compared to MKI
200MKI need straight forward 400pilots and 100 spare bcz requirement is 1.25. imagining 100single and 100double seater its basically 125 and 250 pilots so total375 pilots. Training and reassigning additional 125pilots is a big challenge
The mission capabilities and especially AD ridden and EW environment based SEAD DEAD in low altitude ingress is very tough for MKI but not impossible whereas Rafale is designed for this from the very beginning.
In a way it's the additional abilities it brings in and how they help multiply the capabilities for our forces. Thus the whole thing.

Of course its IAF and IN who has to decide if what I just said has merits enough to look at this solution or not. And MOD to see if budgets creates issue's or this is a no problem owing to say Euro 3Bn average per year for 10-11 years.

@jha pls feel free to post here.. I do love all folks comments and views.. so pls don't ever hesitate.

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## Spectre

PARIKRAMA said:


> If I have to assume some figures for future MII. It can be simplified in a lucid manner.
> 
> Suppose assume it's 10 more squadrons each with say 20 crafts just for ease of computation
> 
> If I assume a similar with escalation and milestone loaded with weapons as well than its approx Euro 110Mn even though I should see a general reduction and targeted cost under Make in india is assumed in the range of 520-580cr with median of 540 crs. But still leta consider based on present deal numbers only for our sake.
> 
> So 200 air crafts is Euro 22Bn including g all weapons
> 
> 10squad means. 5 bases so around Euro 0.7x5 = Euro 3.5 Bn
> 
> Even if suppose it's either 1Bn or even say full 10 bases it will be Euro 10Bn
> 
> Engg support in all other forms and if you consider all other packages add another 40 Mn per bird or Euro 8Bn
> 
> So ballpark figure does comes out to Euro 33.5Bn to Euro 40Bn
> 
> So @jha you have thought a descent figure.
> 
> In case suppose it's Su30MKI super config it will be say approx 10-20% cheaper owing to most costs already sunk and weapons and infra which would be more or less only in high economy of scales point of view. But what it actually negates is
> 
> CPFH cost where Rafale cost is$ 9.7K versus MKI according to IAF $12k and most generally it's more bcz some points are not added for MKI as per IAF differentiation of cost under different heads. Mirage as per IAF was just $3k. And all that are pasted here in this thread by me and by folks like @Vergennes and @Picdelamirand-oil . That's basically a straight forward saying of 20-40% saving over lifetime.
> The engine durability and maintenance free nature and ease of repair due to modules actually help a lot in improving downtime issues.
> Number of engines required over lifetime is much lesser in Rafales as compared to MKI
> 200MKI need straight forward 400pilots and 100 spare bcz requirement is 1.25. imagining 100single and 100double seater its basically 125 and 250 pilots so total375 pilots. Training and reassigning additional 125pilots is a big challenge
> The mission capabilities and especially AD ridden and EW environment based SEAD DEAD in low altitude ingress is very tough for MKI but not impossible whereas Rafale is designed for this from the very beginning.
> In a way it's the additional abilities it brings in and how they help multiply the capabilities for our forces. Thus the whole thing.
> 
> Of course its IAF and IN who has to decide if what I just said has merits enough to look at this solution or not. And MOD to see if budgets creates issue's or this is a no problem owing to say Euro 3Bn average per year for 10-11 years.
> 
> @jha pls feel free to post here.. I do love all folks comments and views.. so pls don't ever hesitate.



@PARIKRAMA do you have expense break up for Base @ .75 B to 1 B per base. 

I am really flummoxed as to why do they cost so much even on iterative basis. 1 Billion would get us almost half a squadron worth of new jets itself.

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## PARIKRAMA

Wet Shirt Contest said:


> Can you explain the highlighted points in detail or point me towards some links, older threads etc, thankyou for your patience, goodday.



*Indian Weapons*

*Requisite Thrust (an indication to the engine uprating)*

*High Altitude Customizations*

*Hot Desert weather customizations*

*Anti Corrosion /harsh weather customizations*

Indian weapons customization includes upfront payment and in future assimilating the Astra, Brahmos and a much longer ALCM. The option is AL Antiship role now done by Exocet as of now.

Requsite thrust is basically uprated engines but that's subject to engine being available which should be as per the plan.

The climate and environment customization is a specific need for high performance and no compromise in payload. The takeoff from short runway in high altitude compromises on mission payload and tenure unless certain specific changes are met. The higher thrust is basically interlinked with all this.

Corrosion parameter has come up a lot in old aircrafts owing to harsh rain, humid and sunlight. India as a country has 4 seasons clearly with I'll timing of adverse climate . So a specific point is to ensure such things don't happen or else repair and replacement etc is an add on cost. Which IAF wishes to reduce upfrontnowing to experience...



Spectre said:


> @PARIKRAMA do you have expense break up for Base @ .75 B to 1 B per base.
> 
> I am really flummoxed as to why do they cost so much even on iterative basis. 1 Billion would get us almost half a squadron worth of new jets itself.


No I don't have if @Picdelamirand-oil can give but now same standard will be built by Indian company either L&T or HCC or somebody else. But seems to be a hardened reinforced and other protection things. Some standard which is superior to present ones as far as what they said. Let me see if I can get some details.

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## randomradio

jha said:


> How about buying another another 100 MKIs in Super-30 config and integrate Meteor/Scalp/Brahmos-NG? Will not cost more than 12-15 Billion dollars.. Invest rest in Kaveri/AMCA programs ...?
> 
> I am not an expert like other members here. So, another 40 Billion does seem to be astronomical amount of money to spend on a foreign plane.



The Rafales are actually cheaper than the MKI.

The current MKI costs $70M per unit flyaway, and that's without adding the billions of dollars in upgrades just to match the Rafale in terms of tech. The Super Sukhoi should comfortably exceed $100M.

The Rafale should cost half that of the MKI in operations cost. For example, the Rafale doesn't need overhauls. The MKI needs 3 overhauls, costing $18M each. The Rafale's engine is rated for 8000 hours on a 7000 hour airframe, while the MKI's engine is rated for 2000 hours on a 6000 hour airframe, so we will need additional engines. All other spares have lower life than Rafale's spares.



jha said:


> Do you have a figure with you ? I am simply multiplying the current deal. Because MII will definitely cost more than current lot.



The cost of all 126 jets in MMRCA was Rs 90,000 Cr. That came to about $15B.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2015/04/india-could-also-buy-light-fighter-to.html
_“We must remember that Rafale is a top-end, multi-role fighter… but it is quite expensive. When you talk of 126 aircraft, it becomes a purchase of about Rs 90,000 crore”, he said._

The GTG is going to be cheaper. Of course, if you add in all other costs, like running it over the next 40-50 years, upgrading them etc, it will cross your $40B mark. But that's spread out over the next 50 years.

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## Taygibay

Agent_47 said:


> This costs more than what dassault asked for changes to UAE requirements. Spending $4 billion of FGFA makes more sense,



Whoa, don't conflate the prices of the bases, changes and weaponry, mate!
Sometimes they do as in bases and maintenance, both important in the LCC
but the first is non-recurring. And sometimes the cost can be attributed to the
seller ( hiking margins to cover offsets or high adaptation costs to cover ToT )
but the origin of some of these demands ( as added weapons ) decides who pays.



Abingdonboy said:


> (although it could be more I'm not sure @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil )



6,000 to 8,000 hours [ Service years numbers are from the political arena and useless. ]
Ms are shorter for ex. and any AC cell goes through its hours on a unitary basis anyhow.



jha said:


> Because MII will definitely cost more than current lot.



Strangely enough, not necessarily! Offsets and ToT already occurred for the 36, remember?
So that if even a small unit has been set up under GtoG deal say to service minimally those
90-some uprated M88, that will already exist and new funds from MII will expand or boost its
productivity. You don't pay anew for all of the ToT already gotten either, just license and so on.

Great week-end all, Tay.

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## BON PLAN

A.P. Richelieu said:


> If profeesional project management means delivering in time, within cost,
> then they have proven they are not.,
> but it was not LM I was thinking of.


OK. So who ?

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## PARIKRAMA

*Source Based News*

*CCS /cabinet level* go ahead on *21st September*
*French Defence Minister Jean Yves Le Drian and a delegation* will come on *23rd September to sign a IGA*
*President Franocis Hollande* is coming to* India in October *when finally the *formal contract will be signed.*
Prez Hollande dates will be known in media within next couple of days
Expected to include some more goodies and a fruitful discussion on MII aspect
More or less whats in store seems to be this
36+18+36+18 - 108 (54 for IAF and 54 for IN later date - Merignac Line with 50% investment back to India)
*2 times point 1 numbers in multiple tranches (5+) over MII line.* ~200+

It is expected that IN all fleet for the initial Rafale M will be from Meriganc Line only.


The Indian Navy order is expected at the almost end of first 36 delivery period so safely its beyond 2021-22
The idea is to keep Meriganc line running by aiding orders as well as get quicker delivery schedule
In return MII order will be done with full cooperation of French Government in order to ensure India's primary task of building fighters in India is met as well as critical transfer envisioned is completed to be used for all future Indian made jets.
Have a great weekend.
@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others

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## [Bregs]

Lol @PARIKRAMA bro this source based news has kept its promise and now finally this multi role fighter Rafale is going to become mainstay of IAF for 3 decades taking lots of load of su30 mki which can now be upgraded to super sukhoi level

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## dadeechi

I wished GoI went for 126 + 63 option rather this tamaasha of 36

And they are still sticking to the date of 23rd Sep..

Clearly shows the inclinations of the people in power.

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## PARIKRAMA

[Bregs] said:


> Lol @PARIKRAMA bro this source based news has kept its promise and now finally this multi role fighter Rafale is going to become mainstay of IAF for 3 decades taking lots of load of su30 mki which can now be upgraded to super sukhoi level




One good thing is IAF even though may be portrayed as a devil for choosing Rafale will have a complete technical evaluation to back their choice.
This has enabled lots of headroom and stone headed approach by IAF who understands why this jet is so important.
Only an IAF pilot or an insider will talk about corrosion like point or even weather specific packages. In my earlier post i said about TAR (Tibet Autonomous Region) as well as Sandy Desert Hot weather conditions.
No doubt IAF has already drawn a strategy based on Rafales some good years ago and is actually pushing for it and with newer capabilities addition, they are even more determined.
The relationship balance does not look bad at all
French Line Merignac - X order with 50% offset - 20% localisation 30% R&D type focused offsets
Indian MII Line - 2 X french Line Merignac order with the TOT absorption

This to me is a very considerate proposition bcz no one will give us a hi end jet at peanuts price. Nor we can bargain something without being a bit balanced.
A order of 54 each for IAF and IN actually keeps Rafale line open, generates more employment and boosts French economy and its citizens welfare.
In return French side not only invests back but also will feel contended that Indian MII line does not undermine and kill their own industry or existence of a threat due to line being in India.
A government cannot do everything for mere friendship unless and untill it sees some merit for its own country's welfare and commercial terms shows its benefiting for agreeing to any such deal.
With the bigger order , its now a full chance to localise the 600 odd supply OEM/vendor in India as well as get the most critical part - Upgrading the metallurgy , technology and skillset to completely make Rafale from raw material stage.
Add the indigenous Engine project and future upgrades.and access to most important parts like Spectra, Active and Passive Cancellation, capabilities under 5th Gen jet.
All these are essentially the building blocks of AMCA and a future evolved version of LCA Light category , yes these are the ones which will finally become the mainstay of our fleet over time.

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## [Bregs]

PARIKRAMA said:


> One good thing is IAF even though may be portrayed as a devil for choosing Rafale will have a complete technical evaluation to back their choice.
> This has enabled lots of headroom and stone headed approach by IAF who understands why this jet is so important.
> Only an IAF pilot or an insider will talk about corrosion like point or even weather specific packages. In my earlier post i said about TAR (Tibet Autonomous Region) as well as Sandy Desert Hot weather conditions.
> No doubt IAF has already drawn a strategy based on Rafales some good years ago and is actually pushing for it and with newer capabilities addition, they are even more determined.
> The relationship balance does not look bad at all
> French Line Merignac - X order with 50% offset - 20% localisation 30% R&D type focused offsets
> Indian MII Line - 2 X french Line Merignac order with the TOT absorption
> 
> This to me is a very considerate proposition bcz no one will give us a hi end jet at peanuts price. Nor we can bargain something without being a bit balanced.
> A order of 54 each for IAF and IN actually keeps Rafale line open, generates more employment and boosts French economy and its citizens welfare.
> In return French side not only invests back but also will feel contended that Indian MII line does not undermine and kill their own industry or existence of a threat due to line being in India.
> A government cannot do everything for mere friendship unless and untill it sees some merit for its own country's welfare and commercial terms shows its benefiting for agreeing to any such deal.
> With the bigger order , its now a full chance to localise the 600 odd supply OEM/vendor in India as well as get the most critical part - Upgrading the metallurgy , technology and skillset to completely make Rafale from raw material stage.
> Add the indigenous Engine project and future upgrades.and access to most important parts like Spectra, Active and Passive Cancellation, capabilities under 5th Gen jet.
> All these are essentially the building blocks of AMCA and a future evolved version of LCA Light category , yes these are the ones which will finally become the mainstay of our fleet over time.



you are bang right bro if technically the Rafale aircraft is explored and evaluated then its crystal clear that its going to cost you fortune and quiet right so as it brings with it hell lots of new capabilities, innovations making the war doctrine of IAF much more easier and credible

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## jha

PARIKRAMA said:


> Add the indigenous Engine project and future upgrades.and access to most important parts like Spectra, Active and Passive Cancellation, capabilities under 5th Gen jet.
> All these are essentially the building blocks of AMCA and a future evolved version of LCA Light category , yes these are the ones which will finally become the mainstay of our fleet over time.



Spectra for AMCA ? Thats news...

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> One good thing is IAF even though may be portrayed as a devil for choosing Rafale will have a complete technical evaluation to back their choice.
> This has enabled lots of headroom and stone headed approach by IAF who understands why this jet is so important.
> Only an IAF pilot or an insider will talk about corrosion like point or even weather specific packages. In my earlier post i said about TAR (Tibet Autonomous Region) as well as Sandy Desert Hot weather conditions.
> No doubt IAF has already drawn a strategy based on Rafales some good years ago and is actually pushing for it and with newer capabilities addition, they are even more determined.
> The relationship balance does not look bad at all
> French Line Merignac - X order with 50% offset - 20% localisation 30% R&D type focused offsets
> Indian MII Line - 2 X french Line Merignac order with the TOT absorption
> 
> This to me is a very considerate proposition bcz no one will give us a hi end jet at peanuts price. Nor we can bargain something without being a bit balanced.
> A order of 54 each for IAF and IN actually keeps Rafale line open, generates more employment and boosts French economy and its citizens welfare.
> In return French side not only invests back but also will feel contended that Indian MII line does not undermine and kill their own industry or existence of a threat due to line being in India.
> A government cannot do everything for mere friendship unless and untill it sees some merit for its own country's welfare and commercial terms shows its benefiting for agreeing to any such deal.
> With the bigger order , its now a full chance to localise the 600 odd supply OEM/vendor in India as well as get the most critical part - Upgrading the metallurgy , technology and skillset to completely make Rafale from raw material stage.
> Add the indigenous Engine project and future upgrades.and access to most important parts like Spectra, Active and Passive Cancellation, capabilities under 5th Gen jet.
> All these are essentially the building blocks of AMCA and a future evolved version of LCA Light category , yes these are the ones which will finally become the mainstay of our fleet over time.


Only now I have accepted that the Rafale is an excellent Pick for the IN, and with reports coming in that there might be a sister ship to Vikrant. A lame man's Q is that the Rafale will have no issue taking off a Ski Slop yes ? 

+ im sure it might have been posted before, But where will be MII line for the Rafale be in india?? and last the list of equipment added to the IAF variant of the Rafale (F3I??) would include the HMDS (Topowl?) and pod (Litening G4?) ??

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## [Bregs]

While this deal is right on the verge of being signed,it must be added that for having this Rafale fighter in its arsenal the IAF and India at large withstood hell lots of pressure frm US, Russia and others but they stood there ground and after so many yrs got what they always felt it is going to be the game changer induction for IAF

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## PARIKRAMA

jha said:


> Spectra for AMCA ? Thats news...


Not just spectra but rather a evolved system based out of it. The AMCA plan as of now have all the technologies that we can understand from say details of F35, F22, PAKFA and some elements of Jseries. Getting them is tough and developing them inhouse requires R& D funds and time. If engine becomes in house and Spectra upgrade like System is available along with other aspects like a high performance AESA radar, more or less it takes away a decade plus research's time and associated R&D by replacing them off the shelf.

Not saying thats the best solution but if we wish to leap frog ahead then it makes sense to get some critical thing in house first like our engine and getting other capable systems from the market.



GuardianRED said:


> Only now I have accepted that the Rafale is an excellent Pick for the IN, and with reports coming in that there might be a sister ship to Vikrant. A lame man's Q is that the Rafale will have no issue taking off a Ski Slop yes ?


They wont have issues but i would still like to see them certified and also understand if the payload capacity in any manner is compromised.







http://navyrecognition.com/index.ph...out-the-rafale-m-carrier-capable-variant.html

Need to understand it in a different manner. IF minimal take off length of Rafale is 400 M and suppose it takes off from STOBAR carrier of 260-280-300m, it will have to compromise on MTOW in some manner.

Now consider the new upgraded M88 engine and requisite thrust, we might end up with a much better figure in such a situation wise payload aspect.

@Picdelamirand-oil can give a better detail on this. Its bascially more to do with low speed and canard assisting lift which lets it operate from stobar as well.




GuardianRED said:


> + im sure it might have been posted before, But where will be MII line for the Rafale be in india?? and last the list of equipment added to the IAF variant of the Rafale (F3I??) would include the HMDS (Topowl?) and pod (Litening G4?) ??


Line site cant reveal - 4 different parties have said 3 sites. 2 parties saying a common site under SEZ type granta dn other 2 saying they will get the benefits and special Aero SEZ approved for the zone creation.
List of equipment is more or less defined in broad terms like weapons, customization, HMDS, etc etc.
Pod - Litening G4
HMDS - Topsight same as Mirages, newspapers says Israeli HMDS as well

http://www.financialexpress.com/eco...ister-to-arrive-on-sep-22/381235/?Socialmedia

_Edited: Incorrect information in HMDS. Needed to correct it. Added link as well to support the views._

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Source Based News*
> 
> *CCS /cabinet level* go ahead on *21st September*
> *French Defence Minister Jean Yves Le Drian and a delegation* will come on *23rd September to sign a IGA*
> *President Franocis Hollande* is coming to* India in October *when finally the *formal contract will be signed.*
> Prez Hollande dates will be known in media within next couple of days
> Expected to include some more goodies and a fruitful discussion on MII aspect
> More or less whats in store seems to be this
> 36+18+36+18 - 108 (54 for IAF and 54 for IN later date - Merignac Line with 50% investment back to India)
> *2 times point 1 numbers in multiple tranches (5+) over MII line.* ~200+
> 
> It is expected that IN all fleet for the initial Rafale M will be from Meriganc Line only.
> 
> 
> The Indian Navy order is expected at the almost end of first 36 delivery period so safely its beyond 2021-22
> The idea is to keep Meriganc line running by aiding orders as well as get quicker delivery schedule
> In return MII order will be done with full cooperation of French Government in order to ensure India's primary task of building fighters in India is met as well as critical transfer envisioned is completed to be used for all future Indian made jets.
> Have a great weekend.
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others


Wow, now if this turns out to be a reality India will have the finest air power outside of the US. 


But I do have a query bro, the IN's number seems far too low. By my estimation they will require 5-6 Rafale M SQNs by 2030 considering the IAC-1, IAC-1 sister class and INS VISHAL will have entered service (leaving aside the Vikramditya whose airwing is already established). This means the IN will need at least 80 Rafale Ms plus another 12 for reserve. 54 will be insufficient to cover the IN's needs beyond 2025. 


Furthermore,what is the timeline for the roll out of the MII line, now that is the crucial element. It is all well and good coming to such an impressive agreement but if the first Indian built Rafale doesn't roll out until 2030 it will actually be entirely pointless.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Not just spectra but rather a evolved system based out of it. The AMCA plan as of now have all the technologies that we can understand from say details of F35, F22, PAKFA and some elements of Jseries. Getting them is tough and developing them inhouse requires R& D funds and time. If engine becomes in house and Spectra upgrade like System is available along with other aspects like a high performance AESA radar, more or less it takes away a decade plus research's time and associated R&D by replacing them off the shelf.
> 
> Not saying thats the best solution but if we wish to leap frog ahead then it makes sense to get some critical thing in house first like our engine and getting other capable systems from the market.
> 
> 
> They wont have issues but i would still like to see them certified and also understand if the payload capacity in any manner is compromised.
> 
> View attachment 335403
> 
> 
> http://navyrecognition.com/index.ph...out-the-rafale-m-carrier-capable-variant.html
> 
> Need to understand it in a different manner. IF minimal take off length of Rafale is 400 M and suppose it takes off from STOBAR carrier of 260-280-300m, it will have to compromise on MTOW in some manner.
> 
> Now consider the new upgraded M88 engine and requisite thrust, we might end up with a much better figure in such a situation wise payload aspect.
> 
> @Picdelamirand-oil can give a better detail on this. Its bascially more to do with low speed and canard assisting lift which lets it operate from stobar as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Line site cant reveal - 4 different parties have said 3 sites. 2 parties saying a common site under SEZ type granta dn other 2 saying they will get the benefits and special Aero SEZ approved for the zone creation.
> List of equipment is more or less defined in broad terms like weapons, customization, HMDS, etc etc.
> HMDS and Pod also Israeli. The general feedback from IAF pilots regarding Litening and Dash series has been very very positive. IMHO its Dash IV. But will wait for the fine print.


Surprised the IAF/IN isn't interested in the TOPSIGHT-I that is already in service on the MIG-29UPG/K and Mirage 2000-5 MK.2 as well as being made in India through a JV between Thales and Samtel. The DASH (III) HMSD is only in service on the LCA. 

Not to mention the fact that Dassualt has already done some work on integrating the Rafale with the TOPSIGHT.

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> Wow, now if this turns out to be a reality India will have the finest air power outside of the US.
> 
> 
> But I do have a query bro, the IN's number seems far too low. By my estimation they will require 5-6 Rafale M SQNs by 2030 considering the IAC-1, IAC-1 sister class and INS VISHAL will have entered service (leaving aside the Vikramditya whose airwing is already established). This means the IN will need at least 80 Rafale Ms plus another 12 for reserve. 54 will be insufficient to cover the IN's needs beyond 2025.
> 
> 
> Furthermore,what is the timeline for the roll out of the MII line, now that is the crucial element. It is all well and good coming to such an impressive agreement but if the first Indian built Rafale doesn't roll out until 2030 it will actually be entirely pointless.



IN only initial order which will be a priority based order for a urgent ACC planned squadron to be made in merignac. Subsequent all orders are from MII line only. 

MII line timeline- Now thats not too much unplanned for... Lets take the reverse case
Assuming elections are due In May 2019
Assume again last 6 months no one wishes to sign a deal and enter into controversy. Typically sluggishness gets seen at least 9 months before hand.

A MII deal with the scope of job creation, skill creation and a big boost to our MIC is an election manifesto item. Thus again at least 9 months before May 2019 again

*Thus outer limit is August 2018.*

Now Strategic partnership model needs to be fully agreed and revealed for public. Once done MOD needs to evaluate that all strategic partnership criterions are met. Along with due diligence aspect as well. So all this will require at least 7 months easily.

*Thus nearest limit is March 2017

So MII line decision should be anywhere between March 2017- August 2018 

Conditions apply like* *Indian Standard Time
*



Abingdonboy said:


> Surprised the IAF/IN isn't interested in the TOPSIGHT-I that is already in service on the MIG-29UPG/K and Mirage 2000-5 MK.2 as well as being made in India through a JV between Thales and Samtel. The DASH (III) HMSD is only in service on the LCA.
> 
> Not to mention the fact that Dassualt has already done some work on integrating the Rafale with the TOPSIGHT.



Apologies. Its Top Sight as per the whatsapp msg reply. same one going to M2K. Will edit earlier post as well

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> IN only initial order which will be a priority based order for a urgent ACC planned squadron to be made in merignac. Subsequent all orders are from MII line only.
> 
> MII line timeline- Now thats not too much unplanned for... Lets take the reverse case
> Assuming elections are due In May 2019
> Assume again last 6 months no one wishes to sign a deal and enter into controversy. Typically sluggishness gets seen at least 9 months before hand.
> 
> A MII deal with the scope of job creation, skill creation and a big boost to our MIC is an election manifesto item. Thus again at least 9 months before May 2019 again
> 
> *Thus outer limit is August 2018.*
> 
> Now Strategic partnership model needs to be fully agreed and revealed for public. Once done MOD needs to evaluate that all strategic partnership criterions are met. Along with due diligence aspect as well. So all this will require at least 7 months easily.
> 
> *Thus nearest limit is March 2017
> 
> So MII line decision should be anywhere between March 2017- August 2018
> 
> Conditions apply like* *Indian Standard Time*


As we have discussed in the past bro, the key issue for India is IMPLEMENTATION . So, taking the outer limit of Aug 2018, when would the MII line actually be up and running? This would be a HUGE project requiring an unfathomable number of clearances, agreements, supply chains, infrastructure development, support structures etc etc. I don't doubt that a company like L&T/TATA backed by the GoI and Dassualt/SAFRAN/Thales/etc can get it going swiftly but for that a lot of groundwork would have to be laid NOW. 

What is proposed really has never been done in India before and has occurred actually very few times anywhere in the world.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Apologies. Its Top Sight as per the whatsapp msg reply. same one going to M2K. Will edit earlier post as well


 No worries bro, that makes more sense  

The Indian Rafale is going to be a sweet mix of French/Indian/Israeli tech/weapons.

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## GuardianRED

Abingdonboy said:


> As we have discussed in the past bro, the key issue for India is IMPLEMENTATION . So, taking the outer limit of Aug 2018, when would the MII line actually be up and running? This would be a HUGE project requiring an unfathomable number of clearances, agreements, supply chains, infrastructure development, support structures etc etc. I don't doubt that a company like L&T/TATA backed by the GoI and Dassualt/SAFRAN/Thales/etc can get it going swiftly but for that a lot of groundwork would have to be laid NOW.
> 
> What is proposed really has never been done in India before and has occurred actually very few times anywhere in the world.
> 
> 
> No worries bro, that makes more sense
> 
> The Indian Rafale is going to be a sweet mix of French/Indian/Israeli tech/weapons.


Only one Institution can possibly throw a spanner in these works... Sadly would be HAL

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> As we have discussed in the past bro, the key issue for India is IMPLEMENTATION . So, taking the outer limit of Aug 2018, when would the MII line actually be up and running? This would be a HUGE project requiring an unfathomable number of clearances, agreements, supply chains, infrastructure development, support structures etc etc. I don't doubt that a company like L&T/TATA backed by the GoI and Dassualt/SAFRAN/Thales/etc can get it going swiftly but for that a lot of groundwork would have to be laid NOW.
> 
> What is proposed really has never been done in India before and has occurred actually very few times anywhere in the world.
> 
> 
> No worries bro, that makes more sense
> 
> The Indian Rafale is going to be a sweet mix of French/Indian/Israeli tech/weapons.



If suppose approval will be given and signed to initiate work by Aug 2018, add 3 years so by Aug 2021 Line should be ready.

Now initial ones will be kits prepped in France meaning CKD units so CKD forms can actually lead to first unit being ready within 15-18 months easily instead of 3 years from the scratch. In fact CKD units should be even less say more like 12 month considering initial teething issues and first run of the line. Still the line first rafale should be out by Jan 2023 types.

If we do give approval and work is is initiated in 2017 itself, we can prepone it and get the earliest Rafale from MII from 2021-22 types.

This is subject to project execution capabilities and scope of state and central government cooperation to ensure this project is prioritized.

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## Indiran Chandiran

PARIKRAMA said:


> If suppose approval will be given and signed to initiate work by Aug 2018, add 3 years so by Aug 2021 Line should be ready.
> 
> Now initial ones will be kits prepped in France meaning CKD units so CKD forms can actually lead to first unit being ready within 15-18 months easily instead of 3 years from the scratch. In fact CKD units should be even less say more like 12 month considering initial teething issues and first run of the line. Still the line first rafale should be out by Jan 2023 types.
> 
> If we do give approval and work is is initiated in 2017 itself, we can prepone it and get the earliest Rafale from MII from 2021-22 types.
> 
> This is subject to project execution capabilities and scope of state and central government cooperation to ensure this project is prioritized.




Fortunately or unfortunately , that means that most of the future inventory of IAF would be coming out of factories at the same time - Tejas Mk-2 , FGFA & Rafale ( MII ) .I'm referring to a timeline of 2023 - 26.

Given the rapidly declining nos of aircraft with the IAF & assuming we have the full quota of Tejas Mk-1a ( not exactly top of the line aircraft ) nducted along with half or three fourths of the Super Sukhoi ( post MLU Sukhoi -30 MKI ) , that still leaves a huge hole in the inventories of fighter aircrafts in the IAG considering that the Jaguars, MIG -29 & Mirage - 2000 would be on their last legs .The full component of MIG - 21 & MIG 27 would be mothballed between 2019 - 2024.

Where will the other nos come from ?? @Abingdonboy & @PARIKRAMA

Don't you think there is a case here for the F-16 ( irrespective of whether it comes with full ToT ) or the Gripen - E ( irrespective of whether it's a potential Tejas Mk - 2 killer.IMHO , irrespective of the similarities between both the Tejas & Gripen , developmental work will not cease & we shall actually see both a naval & air force version of MK 2 .I have some additional points too which I shall make after your posts if you would be kind enough to oblige us with your views )

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## Taygibay

jha said:


> Spectra for AMCA ? Thats news...





PARIKRAMA said:


> Not just spectra but rather a evolved system based out of it.



It will have to be called SPECTA or SPECTAM too.



PARIKRAMA said:


> So MII line decision should be anywhere between March 2017- August 2018



And March 2017 is two months before our Presidential elections.
Signing that big a contract right then might . . .

 Tay.

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> It will have to be called SPECTA or SPECTAM too.



AMCA will have its own name when ready, like how LCA is called Tejas.



> And March 2017 is two months before our Presidential elections.
> Signing that big a contract right then might . . .



No chance of that happening.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Picdelamirand-oil can give a better detail on this. Its bascially more to do with low speed and canard assisting lift which lets it operate from stobar as well.


The Rafale takes off at 125 kt. His approach speed is 120 Kt but the flight controls allow a stable and under control situation at only 100 kt.
At the end of the jump the Rafale would have a "ballistic" trajectory under control for which the reactors continues to push to bring it to flight. With a Carrier speed of 28 KT, It is therefore enough to accelerate to a speed of 72 KT relative to the bridge. For this he needs 137 m.

If you want to increase the load carried, you can limit the internal fuel to take off and make a refueling just after takeoff, but this should not be necessary with the upgraded M-88.

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## JanjaWeed

*Behind Rafale deal: Their ‘strategic’ role in delivery of nuclear weapons*

WITH INDIA and France expected to announce the Inter-Government Agreement (IGA) for Rafale fighter jets in the next few days, the clinching factor behind Delhi deciding to buy even only 36 French aircraft has become clearer. The long-delayed deal is being finalised because India has identified the French fighters for their ‘strategic’ role — to deliver nuclear weapons.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) currently has 32 fighter squadrons against an authorisation of 42, and many of them, particularly the MiGs, are reaching the end of their service in this decade. Thirty-six Rafales, to be inducted between 2019 and 2023, will make for only two squadrons. This still leaves a huge gap, to be filled by either the indigenous Tejas fighters, or another foreign fighter such as the Swedish Gripen or the American F-16, both of which have offered to ‘Make in India’.

Although there is a follow-up clause in the IGA for buying an additional 18 Rafales, the numbers still fall short of the 126 Rafales India had originally planned to buy under the previous UPA government.

According to officials who spoke to The Sunday Express on condition of anonymity, the deciding factor in buying the Rafales, even in such small numbers, was its ability “to be used as an airborne strategic delivery system”. In other words, Rafale is expected to be the chosen fighter plane for the delivery of nuclear weapons in a strike role.

“The French Air Force, Armee de l’ Air, is shifting from Mirages to Rafales for its nuclear strike role this year. They have already started the process, and although our nuclear delivery systems are different from theirs, it does tell us that Rafale is suited for that task,” said a defence official.

“The French Mirage-2000s have been modified for the delivery of our strategic arsenal. France has continued to provide maintenance, spares and technical support for these Mirages, which may not have been the case with some other foreign countries. We expect the same degree of cooperation from France when we modify and use the Rafales for that role,” said another official.

At present, IAF is supposed to use modified Mirage-2000 fighters in a nuclear strike role. But these upgraded Mirages are scheduled to be phased out of service from 2030 onwards. According to officials, a replacement for them would be needed, and India’s comfort with Paris on these matters makes it logical to go with Rafales for this critical task.

Meanwhile, sources have confirmed that India has extended an invite to the French defence minister, Jean Yves Le Drian, to visit Delhi next week. Although a formal confirmation from Paris was not received till Friday, the two sides are expected to announce the signing of an IGA for 36 Rafales next week.

Following a Cabinet Committee on Security approval, a contract, if things go as per schedule, should be signed within 45 days. An advance of 10-15 per cent of total contract value is expected to be paid to the French government at the signing of the contract.

During his visit to Paris last April, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced the purchase of 36 Rafale fighters in a government-to-government deal with France. This followed a decade-long process of trials and selection of Rafales for the 126 Medium Multi Range Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, which could not be concluded. The MMRCA tender was formally withdrawn by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar later last year.

India and France underwent a series of negotiations over the price of the 36 fighters, and the two sides agreed to a final price of about Euro 7.87 billion a few weeks ago. Although all the fighters will be made in France, Rafale will invest 50 per cent of the value of the deal as offsets in India. The delivery of the first fighter aircraft is scheduled for 2019.

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...-role-in-delivery-of-nuclear-weapons-3036852/

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## PARIKRAMA

Key points
Thanks @JanjaWeed for posting Sushant Singh's article



> *According to officials who spoke to The Sunday Express on condition of anonymity, the deciding factor in buying the Rafales, even in such small numbers, was its ability “to be used as an airborne strategic delivery system”. In other words, Rafale is expected to be the chosen fighter plane for the delivery of nuclear weapons in a strike role*
> 
> .





> *At present, IAF is supposed to use modified Mirage-2000 fighters in a nuclear strike role. But these upgraded Mirages are scheduled to be phased out of service from 2030 onwards. According to officials, a replacement for them would be needed, and India’s comfort with Paris on these matters makes it logical to go with Rafales for this critical task.*





> *Following a Cabinet Committee on Security approval, a contract, if things go as per schedule, should be signed within 45 days.*





> *An advance of 10-15 per cent of total contract value is expected to be paid to the French government at the signing of the contract*.




Key points are basically what has been said before here. Time and again the roles in SFC which with these crafts basically will become a full fledged 40+36 = 76 Jets with always available 30+32=62 at any point of time for operational convenience.
This also now enables to understand why there is an extra Logistics based performance and spare contract for Euro 353 Mn and a massive customization based on climatic conditions (which o course becomes common for all the craft thats purchased).
Indications are rest of the fleet standard availability may be restricted to 75% and external packages may not be signed
This saves almost Euro 10Mn approx per plane for 15% additional availability which we plan to improve via way of availability of parts and spares in our Rafale production ecosystem
Thus Prez Hollande coming for contract schedule gets the timeline from Sept end to Oct end to max Nov beginning. But its October as i posted above
I also said Q3/Q4 money will be released long back.
+++

@Spectre
I did leave a message to the people and what i am coming to know does not sound too good to me.

Presently not all and in fact most MKIs are not inside shelter.
*In general most airbases are having open parking.*
The shelters are mil standards of old erstwhile time which even a 1000 pound + bomb will destroy easily.
*There is a parliamentary report on this as well as CAG pointers saying MKI does not even have a standard 2000 lb bomb proof shelter.*
*Government had replied that IAF had submitted a request for New Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelter (NGHAS) which will enable it to be protected and yet weapons change, and loading + maintenance can be done from that shelter itself*
This item is clubbed under The Modernisation of Airfield Infrastructure or MAFI and the present timeline for delivering around 30 such bases pan India is around 5+ years away.
But for that to succeed the request is pending for Rs 60,000 Crores or approx $9 Bn of grant for multiple years and per year about $1.5Bn or Rs10k Crores is used for the same.
Still there is a wide gap between actual required and approved implying terrible slow process of getting NGHAS bases.
*Thus for MKI infrastructure new additional costs are there which of course is not told in public and in simple words, the fleet size numbers makes it justifiable.*
*These costs in todays era will escalate a fresh MKI at super config to more than double the cost and ballpark assessments is in the range of $250 Mn when other aspects of repairs, service, engine life, weather issues, availability upgrade, etc*
*In the words of the source, IAF has done 1:1 assessment submitted to MOD when asked about the comparative price of Rafale and MKI in a tabular form to have a clear understanding and it was proved and independently verified by MOD that Rafale packaged price came lower than MKI for a similar setup based packaged deal.*
*It was uptill this point DM MP negotiated to get a proper justification of financial part of the deal.*
Now some quotes from 16th standing parliamentary committee









+++
Indian Express did an article last year on this
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...khoi-30-fighters-have-no-protective-shelters/

Quotes
_*The committee members were also informed by representatives of the MoD that the NGHAS “is a large project and it costs thousands of crores of rupees”. It was further informed that NGHAS are specialised structures and “are designed to save a Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft from direct hit of 2000 lbs bomb”*._

T_he committee, which is headed by Major General BC Khanduri (retd) noted that *it is extremely pertinent that no damage is caused to the available aircraft. It also said that while the New Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelter (NGHAS) project is conceptualised for this purpose, nevertheless, the committee desired that there should not be any delay in execution, as such delays have become a common feature of all the projects.*_

_In its recently tabled report on the manufacture of Sukhoi-30 MKI by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the *Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) too had pointed out certain anomalies with the aircraft due to it being parked in the open sun.*

The CAG report had mentioned that a review of 42 cases of repairs undertaken by HAL in Sukhoi 30 MKI, up to March 2010, disclosed that fuel leakage was the main snag in 36 cases and complaints relating to leakage from fuel tank were reported by IAF immediately after delivery of the aircraft. The leakages had caused pre-mature withdrawal of the aircraft from active flying.

*Among the reasons that that been attributed for the problem were that the Sukhoi-30 MKI had been “parked outside in hot conditions”. The HAL management had told CAG that the other reasons for leakages were operating the aircraft at higher ‘g’ levels, high manoeuvers and hard landings and aircraft parked without fuel for longer time. They had added that fuel leakages could not be fully excluded due to inherent design features of the aircraft.*

+++_
If you see the above report you will get two points in mind quickly

The need of a NGHAS for our aircrafts
Harsh Weather effects and other associated technical issues.
Thus, this implied IAF and MOD has learned some lessons and the results are seen in this deal as well like

Procurement of a Base meeting minimum NATO standard as well as in country NGHAS standard
Weather ill effects being clearly inputted in the initial contract signing itself.
Existing old bases non confirming to NGHAS does not enable repalcement of fighters by Rafales owing to size compatibility issue as well as Ageing of older structures
If you see the package details its covered here, these points were adequately covered




https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-327#post-8688450

+++



@Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar 002 @anant_s @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @MilSpec @randomradio @Armani @GuardianRED @R!CK https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/

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## Acknowledge

BON PLAN said:


> The detail of the whole cost is unknown. It's only assumption from some of us.
> Maybe these costs hide something else....
> 
> And if I remember well, F3R doesn't include a helmet... Seems that French air force doesn't trust on HMD so far.
> 
> Integrating Astra, Ligntning pod, russian missiles or bombs cost a lot.
> 
> What is quite sure is that the total number of Rafale in IAF can't stay at 36.


Yes. It is almost certain that the balance 18 will be ordered. That's the standard way MoD places orders. It almost always executes the follow on contract.

But I personally doubt that more Rafales will be ordered after the 36+18. They will replace the Mirages on a more than 1:1 ratio while giving higher uptime than the Mirages.

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## 4GTejasBVR

Acknowledge said:


> Yes. It is almost certain that the balance 18 will be ordered. That's the standard way MoD places orders. It almost always executes the follow on contract.
> 
> But I personally doubt that more Rafales will be ordered after the 36+18. They will replace the Mirages on a more than 1:1 ratio while giving higher uptime than the Mirages.



36+18 is the deal we are signing. Don't know from where PARIKRAMA getting these source which even French ministry could deny. It's true India need more fighters like rafale for various reasons but how far we can spend is the real question. PARIKRAMA says we will buy atleast 200 rafale. But India already investing in 150+ FGFA, 150+ AMCA, 200+ Tejas MK2. I mean seriously we have sufficient funds? I doubt it. By far IN will go for another 40+ rafale for its INS Vishal which will enter service by 2030. That too if Americans have no problem with India not buying carrier jets from them as many inputs are made available from US carrier programs. If India gets new Vikrant 2 rafale should be modified for ski jump rather mig29 or mi35 cuts the cue. If IN buy super carrier proposed by Russians then don't make any mistakes it could be aimed with N FGFA and AMCA and Tejas MK2. 

So these stupid so called source are really misleading and pathetic with these kind of claims. U dint even mentioned about another single engine fighter under make in India. At most IAF will operate around 36 (by2022) 18 more as follow on by 2025. By this time India will have very matured fleet of fifth generation FGFA, handsomely upgraded Super Su, AMCA with promising results. 

I will also claim that this is what my so. Called source based news says. Because it's far far away from timeline and reality

I really wish we have 200 rafale along with 300 sukoi by 2030. If this happened them it's good. But it's not the plan in first place as claimed by many here. Wishing is one thing Saying it as source is another thing as it misleading

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## Spectre

PARIKRAMA said:


> Key points
> Thanks @JanjaWeed for posting Sushant Singh's article
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Key points are basically what has been said before here. Time and again the roles in SFC which with these crafts basically will become a full fledged 40+36 = 76 Jets with always available 30+32=62 at any point of time for operational convenience.
> This also now enables to understand why there is an extra Logistics based performance and spare contract for Euro 353 Mn and a massive customization based on climatic conditions (which o course becomes common for all the craft thats purchased).
> Indications are rest of the fleet standard availability may be restricted to 75% and external packages may not be signed
> This saves almost Euro 10Mn approx per plane for 15% additional availability which we plan to improve via way of availability of parts and spares in our Rafale production ecosystem
> Thus Prez Hollande coming for contract schedule gets the timeline from Sept end to Oct end to max Nov beginning. But its October as i posted above
> I also said Q3/Q4 money will be released long back.
> +++
> 
> @Spectre
> I did leave a message to the people and what i am coming to know does not sound too good to me.
> 
> Presently not all and in fact most MKIs are not inside shelter.
> *In general most airbases are having open parking.*
> The shelters are mil standards of old erstwhile time which even a 1000 pound + bomb will destroy easily.
> *There is a parliamentary report on this as well as CAG pointers saying MKI does not even have a standard 2000 lb bomb proof shelter.*
> *Government had replied that IAF had submitted a request for New Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelter (NGHAS) which will enable it to be protected and yet weapons change, and loading + maintenance can be done from that shelter itself*
> This item is clubbed under The Modernisation of Airfield Infrastructure or MAFI and the present timeline for delivering around 30 such bases pan India is around 5+ years away.
> But for that to succeed the request is pending for Rs 60,000 Crores or approx $9 Bn of grant for multiple years and per year about $1.5Bn or Rs10k Crores is used for the same.
> Still there is a wide gap between actual required and approved implying terrible slow process of getting NGHAS bases.
> *Thus for MKI infrastructure new additional costs are there which of course is not told in public and in simple words, the fleet size numbers makes it justifiable.*
> *These costs in todays era will escalate a fresh MKI at super config to more than double the cost and ballpark assessments is in the range of $250 Mn when other aspects of repairs, service, engine life, weather issues, availability upgrade, etc*
> *In the words of the source, IAF has done 1:1 assessment submitted to MOD when asked about the comparative price of Rafale and MKI in a tabular form to have a clear understanding and it was proved and independently verified by MOD that Rafale packaged price came lower than MKI for a similar setup based packaged deal.*
> *It was uptill this point DM MP negotiated to get a proper justification of financial part of the deal.*
> Now some quotes from 16th standing parliamentary committee
> View attachment 335506
> 
> 
> View attachment 335507
> 
> +++
> Indian Express did an article last year on this
> http://indianexpress.com/article/in...khoi-30-fighters-have-no-protective-shelters/
> 
> Quotes
> _*The committee members were also informed by representatives of the MoD that the NGHAS “is a large project and it costs thousands of crores of rupees”. It was further informed that NGHAS are specialised structures and “are designed to save a Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft from direct hit of 2000 lbs bomb”*._
> 
> T_he committee, which is headed by Major General BC Khanduri (retd) noted that *it is extremely pertinent that no damage is caused to the available aircraft. It also said that while the New Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelter (NGHAS) project is conceptualised for this purpose, nevertheless, the committee desired that there should not be any delay in execution, as such delays have become a common feature of all the projects.*_
> 
> _In its recently tabled report on the manufacture of Sukhoi-30 MKI by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the *Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) too had pointed out certain anomalies with the aircraft due to it being parked in the open sun.*
> 
> The CAG report had mentioned that a review of 42 cases of repairs undertaken by HAL in Sukhoi 30 MKI, up to March 2010, disclosed that fuel leakage was the main snag in 36 cases and complaints relating to leakage from fuel tank were reported by IAF immediately after delivery of the aircraft. The leakages had caused pre-mature withdrawal of the aircraft from active flying.
> 
> *Among the reasons that that been attributed for the problem were that the Sukhoi-30 MKI had been “parked outside in hot conditions”. The HAL management had told CAG that the other reasons for leakages were operating the aircraft at higher ‘g’ levels, high manoeuvers and hard landings and aircraft parked without fuel for longer time. They had added that fuel leakages could not be fully excluded due to inherent design features of the aircraft.*
> 
> +++_
> If you see the above report you will get two points in mind quickly
> 
> The need of a NGHAS for our aircrafts
> Harsh Weather effects and other associated technical issues.
> Thus, this implied IAF and MOD has learned some lessons and the results are seen in this deal as well like
> 
> Procurement of a Base meeting minimum NATO standard as well as in country NGHAS standard
> Weather ill effects being clearly inputted in the initial contract signing itself.
> Existing old bases non confirming to NGHAS does not enable repalcement of fighters by Rafales owing to size compatibility issue as well as Ageing of older structures
> If you see the package details its covered here, these points were adequately covered
> View attachment 335508
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-327#post-8688450
> 
> +++
> 
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar 002 @anant_s @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @MilSpec @randomradio @Armani @GuardianRED @R!CK https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/



Edited. I made a computational error in currency conversion 1 B USD is closer to 6500 crore not 60000 crore.

Thanks @PARIKRAMA

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## PARIKRAMA

Some folks asked PSK for 2 way link and HMDS

Also his view about Tellis and others proposing F16

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## Acknowledge

4GTejasBVR said:


> 36+18 is the deal we are signing. Don't know from where PARIKRAMA getting these source which even French ministry could deny. It's true India need more fighters like rafale for various reasons but how far we can spend is the real question. PARIKRAMA says we will buy atleast 200 rafale. But India already investing in 150+ FGFA, 150+ AMCA, 200+ Tejas MK2. I mean seriously we have sufficient funds? I doubt it. By far IN will go for another 40+ rafale for its INS Vishal which will enter service by 2030. That too if Americans have no problem with India not buying carrier jets from them as many inputs are made available from US carrier programs. If India gets new Vikrant 2 rafale should be modified for ski jump rather mig29 or mi35 cuts the cue. If IN buy super carrier proposed by Russians then don't make any mistakes it could be aimed with N FGFA and AMCA and Tejas MK2.


I would concur. 
I would also concede that @PARIKRAMA follows this topic much more closely than I and it is therefore inevitable that he would know more.

But I also have to say that I find these projections absolutely incorrect. I doubt even a single plane after 36 + 18 will be ordered.

Though I utterly despise that GoI is going for the 36+18 route in the first place. After such extensive and exhaustive evaluation and negotiations, GoI should order 54 planes from the start. Its not as if there is anything that needs to be left to test by way of having Rafale's in IAF colors before their performance becomes known and more orders are made.

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## PARIKRAMA

4GTejasBVR said:


> 36+18 is the deal we are signing. Don't know from where PARIKRAMA getting these source which even French ministry could deny. It's true India need more fighters like rafale for various reasons but how far we can spend is the real question. PARIKRAMA says we will buy atleast 200 rafale. But India already investing in 150+ FGFA, 150+ AMCA, 200+ Tejas MK2. I mean seriously we have sufficient funds? I doubt it. By far IN will go for another 40+ rafale for its INS Vishal which will enter service by 2030. That too if Americans have no problem with India not buying carrier jets from them as many inputs are made available from US carrier programs. If India gets new Vikrant 2 rafale should be modified for ski jump rather mig29 or mi35 cuts the cue. If IN buy super carrier proposed by Russians then don't make any mistakes it could be aimed with N FGFA and AMCA and Tejas MK2.
> 
> So these stupid so called source are really misleading and pathetic with these kind of claims. U dint even mentioned about another single engine fighter under make in India. At most IAF will operate around 36 (by2022) 18 more as follow on by 2025. By this time India will have very matured fleet of fifth generation FGFA, handsomely upgraded Super Su, AMCA with promising results.
> 
> I will also claim that this is what my so. Called source based news says. Because it's far far away from timeline and reality
> 
> I really wish we have 200 rafale along with 300 sukoi by 2030. If this happened them it's good. But it's not the plan in first place as claimed by many here. Wishing is one thing Saying it as source is another thing as it misleading



I would point only few things.

India has actually asked for 127 FGFA jets with an option to review and downsize it further with minimum requirement at 65. So ballpark figure is anything between 65-127 or more like max 7 squadrons.
AMCA no commitments have been made as of now. Assessment will be subject to aircraft actually on ground. The scope is of course very different and can cover anything under the medium role category and mission specs wise.
India again has not committed for Tejas MK2 200 numbers. How will they committ when IAF themselves have not committed for MK2 version as of now. MK2 as of now is Naval version pegged at 40 order request that also not officially approved bcz the naval version has not yet cleared basic tests.
In fact there is an absolute sad state of affairs as i had pointed here before DM MP had asked folks in review meet about everything including MK2 production and design schedule. They (HAL, ADA , others) asked for a 1 year time to study and reply in a "report". DM MP was visibility pissed with this attitude. Thats the shambolic state of MK2 project as of today.
Secondly, IN will never ever go for Naval FGFA unless its shoved to their throat along with a 85K Shtorm carrier . Naval PAKFA itself requires funding to complete the work so unless we sign up and pay for it , it wont be coming.
Mig29K agreed bcz we already have it but IN does not see a future of it in long term. We got it as part of Baku/Vikramaditya deal when we did nt have a choice. Again Mig35 is not a standard choice of IN as of now.
If USA does put restrictions they will sell F35s not even F18s. But then it wont be Shtorm but an indigenous design ACC.
And AMCA wont be coming so soon. We would be lucky if we test a proper prototype with proper technologies by 2030. A bare naked aircraft means nothing for us. The 5th Gen technological needs wont be available off the shelf and with just limited fleet buy we wont get anything from other places as well.

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## ashok321

*Behind Rafale deal: Their ‘strategic’ role in delivery of nuclear weapons*


http://indianexpress.com/article/in...-role-in-delivery-of-nuclear-weapons-3036852/








WITH INDIA and France expected to announce the Inter-Government Agreement (IGA) for Rafale fighter jets in the next few days, the clinching factor behind Delhi deciding to buy even only 36 French aircraft has become clearer. *The long-delayed deal is being finalised because India has identified the French fighters for their ‘strategic’ role — to deliver nuclear weapons.*

The Indian Air Force (IAF) currently has 32 fighter squadrons against an authorisation of 42, and many of them, particularly the MiGs, are reaching the end of their service in this decade. Thirty-six Rafales, to be inducted between 2019 and 2023, will make for only two squadrons. This still leaves a huge gap, to be filled by either the indigenous Tejas fighters, or another foreign fighter such as the Swedish Gripen or the American F-16, both of which have offered to ‘Make in India’.

Although there is a follow-up clause in the IGA for buying an additional 18 Rafales, the numbers still fall short of the 126 Rafales India had originally planned to buy under the previous UPA government.

According to officials who spoke to The Sunday Express on condition of anonymity, the deciding factor in buying the Rafales, even in such small numbers, was its ability “to be used as an airborne strategic delivery system”. *In other words, Rafale is expected to be the chosen fighter plane for the delivery of nuclear weapons in a strike role.

“The French Air Force, Armee de l’ Air, is shifting from Mirages to Rafales for its nuclear strike role this year*. They have already started the process, and although our nuclear delivery systems are different from theirs, it does tell us that Rafale is suited for that task,” said a defence official.

“The French Mirage-2000s have been modified for the delivery of our strategic arsenal. France has continued to provide maintenance, spares and technical support for these Mirages, which may not have been the case with some other foreign countries. We expect the same degree of cooperation from France when we modify and use the Rafales for that role,” said another official.

At present, IAF is supposed to use modified Mirage-2000 fighters in a nuclear strike role. But these upgraded Mirages are scheduled to be phased out of service from 2030 onwards. According to officials, a replacement for them would be needed, and India’s comfort with Paris on these matters makes it logical to go with Rafales for this critical task.

Meanwhile, sources have confirmed that India has extended an invite to the French defence minister, Jean Yves Le Drian, to visit Delhi next week. Although a formal confirmation from Paris was not received till Friday, the two sides are expected to announce the signing of an IGA for 36 Rafales next week.

Following a Cabinet Committee on Security approval, a contract, if things go as per schedule, should be signed within 45 days. An advance of 10-15 per cent of total contract value is expected to be paid to the French government at the signing of the contract.

During his visit to Paris last April, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced the purchase of 36 Rafale fighters in a government-to-government deal with France. This followed a decade-long process of trials and selection of Rafales for the 126 Medium Multi Range Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, which could not be concluded. The MMRCA tender was formally withdrawn by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar later last year.

India and France underwent a series of negotiations over the price of the 36 fighters, and the two sides agreed to a final price of about Euro 7.87 billion a few weeks ago. Although all the fighters will be made in France, Rafale will invest 50 per cent of the value of the deal as offsets in India. The delivery of the first fighter aircraft is scheduled for 2019.

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## 4GTejasBVR

PARIKRAMA said:


> I would point only few things.
> 
> India has actually asked for 127 FGFA jets with an option to review and downsize it further with minimum requirement at 65. So ballpark figure is anything between 65-127 or more like max 7 squadrons.
> AMCA no commitments have been made as of now. Assessment will be subject to aircraft actually on ground. The scope is of course very different and can cover anything under the medium role category and mission specs wise.
> India again has not committed for Tejas MK2 200 numbers. How will they committ when IAF themselves have not committed for MK2 version as of now. MK2 as of now is Naval version pegged at 40 order request that also not officially approved bcz the naval version has not yet cleared basic tests.
> In fact there is an absolute sad state of affairs as i had pointed here before DM MP had asked folks in review meet about everything including MK2 production and design schedule. They (HAL, ADA , others) asked for a 1 year time to study and reply in a "report". DM MP was visibility pissed with this attitude. Thats the shambolic state of MK2 project as of today.
> Secondly, IN will never ever go for Naval FGFA unless its shoved to their throat along with a 85K Shtorm carrier . Naval PAKFA itself requires funding to complete the work so unless we sign up and pay for it , it wont be coming.
> Mig29K agreed bcz we already have it but IN does not see a future of it in long term. We got it as part of Baku/Vikramaditya deal when we did nt have a choice. Again Mig35 is not a standard choice of IN as of now.
> If USA does put restrictions they will sell F35s not even F18s. But then it wont be Shtorm but an indigenous design ACC.
> And AMCA wont be coming so soon. We would be lucky if we test a proper prototype with proper technologies by 2030. A bare naked aircraft means nothing for us. The 5th Gen technological needs wont be available off the shelf and with just limited fleet buy we wont get anything from other places as well.



So when did India committed 200 rafale? I like to know. And FGFA is our own program than that of rafale. 127 was old news. Thinks have moved pretty well in the last couple of weeks. AMCA and Tejas are concerned there is no need of commitments. Either way they will be inducted in large numbers. 

Kindly point out India committing to 200 rafale.

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## PARIKRAMA

4GTejasBVR said:


> So when did India committed 200 rafale? I like to know. And FGFA is our own program than that of rafale. 127 was old news. Thinks have moved pretty well in the last couple of weeks. AMCA and Tejas are concerned there is no need of commitments. Either way they will be inducted in large numbers.
> 
> Kindly point out India committing to 200 rafale.



As i said Rafale commitments are two prong in IGA

One is a pure commitment of only off the shelf purchase in lieu of 16 technologies and the critical offset investments
The other is the standard set of conditions under which an MII line will be announced for Rafale . It is this part where a an assessment and a tier wise localisation % is defined for a fleet and numbers including cost.
Pls note
India can still opt out of Point 2 without incurring any financial loss at any point of time for a specific numbers of flyaway /off the self deals. There are some pre conditions towards MII commitments.. That specific is not 54 jets.. This is for the pure technologies shared aspect.
The standard set of conditions involves a simple line stating Indian MII line will have orders which will be minimum 2 times ordered from the off the shelf route.

Again Contract exit clauses are there to ensure we might look at better options if available.

About FGFA i would wait for the Indo Russian summit as well as when the 3 protos are actually handed to HAL for MKIsation in future. Bcz whatever i say now wont make sense at all. So its same for AMCA as well as LCA Mk2 case I will let the reports come out naturally.

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## 4GTejasBVR

PARIKRAMA said:


> I would point only few things.
> 
> India has actually asked for 127 FGFA jets with an option to review and downsize it further with minimum requirement at 65. So ballpark figure is anything between 65-127 or more like max 7 squadrons.





And why is that that we will stop with just 7 squadron when production will be available in India? That too Ur source said it will be around 65 - 127? We are investigating over 3.5 billion dollars in just developing this fighter. 



> AMCA no commitments have been made as of now. Assessment will be subject to aircraft actually on ground. The scope is of course very different and can cover anything under the medium role category and mission specs wise.


 Looks like Ur source diminished any possibility for AMCA development. As we will develop and then drop if we can buy better AMCA on actual ground? 



> India again has not committed for Tejas MK2 200 numbers. How will they committ when IAF themselves have not committed for MK2 version as of now. MK2 as of now is Naval version pegged at 40 order request that also not officially approved bcz the naval version has not yet cleared basic tests.
> In fact there is an absolute sad state of affairs as i had pointed here before DM MP had asked folks in review meet about everything including MK2 production and design schedule. They (HAL, ADA , others) asked for a 1 year time to study and reply in a "report". DM MP was visibility pissed with this attitude. Thats the shambolic state of MK2 project as of today.



 As of now MK2 been developed for N Tejas. Before Airforce was also on board they wanted MK2 instead of MK1. But now MP made some progress with MK1A configuration IAF ACCEPTED Tejas and committed for 80 more in MK1A configuration. It doesn't mean IAF won't buy or get involved in Airforce variant of MK2. Kindly inform your source that it's just common sense. 



> Secondly, *IN will never ever go for Naval FGFA unless its shoved to their throat along with a 85K Shtorm carrier* . Naval PAKFA itself requires funding to complete the work so unless we sign up and pay for it , it wont be coming.



 Are you sure? It's like Russia will arm twist India to buy AC even if we don't need? That what you saying? I beg to differ. Indian Navy has plans to operate or plan to build 5 AC by year 2030 . 1 viki, 2 vikrant class, 1 from us and another from Russia. . 3 different AC programs about to start. Vikrant about to enter service by 2018, Vishal is reality with US technology. Russia also offered its version of Super carrier with FGFA and flat deck. What Russians are offering is a super carrier more or less similar to Nimitz. Why could India won't be willing to operate Made in India fighter N FGFA. .. Mig29 are what we can get for best price and capability as of now and in the past. That's because it was part of the deal we signed with Russians. They give us their AC for free and we buy their aircraft and support systems and service charge. It's not that Mig29 was the best carrier fighter so chose it. 



> *Mig29K agreed bcz we already have it but IN does not see a future* of it in long term. We got it as part of Baku/Vikramaditya deal when we did nt have a choice. Again Mig35 is not a standard choice of IN as of now.




Poor Indian Navy guys. Pardon them for their poor vision for future. You and Ur source should teach them some basic tips on future vision. 



> If USA does put restrictions they will sell F35s not even F18s. But then it wont be Shtorm but an indigenous design ACC.


 dude F35 won't be coming without strings attached on sensitive parts. But we can have Israeli version of F35 with Israeli systems replacing US equipment. And no one will ask to produce in India for just 30 fighter jet deals. 

Don't go over board by closing door on f18s. As of now even Mod and US is confused on selecting between F16/18/gripin. But you already given the verdict like astrologer. 



> And AMCA wont be coming so soon. We would be *lucky if we test a proper prototype with proper technologies by 2030.* A bare naked aircraft means nothing for us. The 5th Gen technological needs wont be available off the shelf and with just limited fleet buy we wont get anything from other places as well.



Are u on drugs? You believe or Ur source said or some angel from Ur dream said decent AMCA prototype will fly only by 2030? What is fifth generation technology that India won't master it before 2020? 

Break it up for me. 1)Engine - obviously American or French or Kaveri with super cruise 

2)Avionics - which we could consider develop with Russia, Israel or even good part of it in India 

3)Structure and paint for stealth... 

These are to name a few and u think AMCA prototype will be out only by 2030. ? Yes unless you add anti gravitation technology like UFO. AMCA is our dark horse buddy. All efforts are made to fast tract Tejas MK1A. So resources and manpower can be increased on AMCA front. . . Tejas MK2 will have its own phase of development as airforce need are met with MK1A. Navy well off with migs till 2022 or so. 

I bet by 2030 India will have matured fleet of AMCA in very large numbers.


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## 4GTejasBVR

PARIKRAMA said:


> As i said Rafale commitments are two prong in IGA
> 
> One is a pure commitment of only off the shelf purchase in lieu of 16 technologies and the critical offset investments
> The other is the standard set of conditions under which an MII line will be announced for Rafale . It is this part where a an assessment and a tier wise localisation % is defined for a fleet and numbers including cost.
> Pls note
> India can still opt out of Point 2 without incurring any financial loss at any point of time for a specific numbers of flyaway /off the self deals. There are some pre conditions towards MII commitments.. That specific is not 54 jets.. This is for the pure technologies shared aspect.
> The standard set of conditions involves a simple line stating Indian MII line will have orders which will be minimum 2 times ordered from the off the shelf route.
> 
> Again Contract exit clauses are there to ensure we might look at better options if available.
> 
> About FGFA i would wait for the Indo Russian summit as well as when the 3 protos are actually handed to HAL for MKIsation in future. Bcz whatever i say now wont make sense at all. So its same for AMCA as well as LCA Mk2 case I will let the reports come out naturally.



My brother kindly go through my previous post. You are far from reality. Calm down and come down to earth and spell the reality

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## BON PLAN

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Source Based News*
> 
> *CCS /cabinet level* go ahead on *21st September*
> *French Defence Minister Jean Yves Le Drian and a delegation* will come on *23rd September to sign a IGA*
> *President Franocis Hollande* is coming to* India in October *when finally the *formal contract will be signed.*
> Prez Hollande dates will be known in media within next couple of days
> Expected to include some more goodies and a fruitful discussion on MII aspect
> More or less whats in store seems to be this
> 36+18+36+18 - 108 (54 for IAF and 54 for IN later date - Merignac Line with 50% investment back to India)
> *2 times point 1 numbers in multiple tranches (5+) over MII line.* ~200+
> 
> It is expected that IN all fleet for the initial Rafale M will be from Meriganc Line only.
> 
> 
> The Indian Navy order is expected at the almost end of first 36 delivery period so safely its beyond 2021-22
> The idea is to keep Meriganc line running by aiding orders as well as get quicker delivery schedule
> In return MII order will be done with full cooperation of French Government in order to ensure India's primary task of building fighters in India is met as well as critical transfer envisioned is completed to be used for all future Indian made jets.
> Have a great weekend.
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others


Why not making Rafale M in MII ? It will be a nice news for Mérignac, but it's strange. The commonality between the différent models of Rafale is extremly high, appart the under carriage.



PARIKRAMA said:


> A order of 54 each for IAF and IN actually keeps Rafale line open, generates more employment and boosts French economy and its citizens welfare.


Thanks, but french economy doesn't depend on Rafale orders. GDP of France is 2200 euros billions....
Even if I'm a old Rafale supporter, Airbus is a far more french GDP contributor.

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## Ali Zadi

So one thing that really fascinates me is the absence of any plans for the 5th generation plane for France. Now given M88 full potential in a dual configuration it can give an equal footing to the single engine F35 or the High mass J20 dual engine plane "Only taking about 5th generation engine specs nothing else"

That means if big modifications for RCS reduction and bays are integrated the Rafale can become a headache for any such fighter. Lets not forget this plane does stick with some of the points that goes into making a 5th Gen fighter "From Integration to data link/share"

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## BON PLAN

PARIKRAMA said:


> Key points
> Thanks @JanjaWeed for posting Sushant Singh's article
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Key points are basically what has been said before here. Time and again the roles in SFC which with these crafts basically will become a full fledged 40+36 = 76 Jets with always available 30+32=62 at any point of time for operational convenience.
> This also now enables to understand why there is an extra Logistics based performance and spare contract for Euro 353 Mn and a massive customization based on climatic conditions (which o course becomes common for all the craft thats purchased).
> Indications are rest of the fleet standard availability may be restricted to 75% and external packages may not be signed
> This saves almost Euro 10Mn approx per plane for 15% additional availability which we plan to improve via way of availability of parts and spares in our Rafale production ecosystem
> Thus Prez Hollande coming for contract schedule gets the timeline from Sept end to Oct end to max Nov beginning. But its October as i posted above
> I also said Q3/Q4 money will be released long back.
> +++
> 
> @Spectre
> I did leave a message to the people and what i am coming to know does not sound too good to me.
> 
> Presently not all and in fact most MKIs are not inside shelter.
> *In general most airbases are having open parking.*
> The shelters are mil standards of old erstwhile time which even a 1000 pound + bomb will destroy easily.
> *There is a parliamentary report on this as well as CAG pointers saying MKI does not even have a standard 2000 lb bomb proof shelter.*
> *Government had replied that IAF had submitted a request for New Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelter (NGHAS) which will enable it to be protected and yet weapons change, and loading + maintenance can be done from that shelter itself*
> This item is clubbed under The Modernisation of Airfield Infrastructure or MAFI and the present timeline for delivering around 30 such bases pan India is around 5+ years away.
> But for that to succeed the request is pending for Rs 60,000 Crores or approx $9 Bn of grant for multiple years and per year about $1.5Bn or Rs10k Crores is used for the same.
> Still there is a wide gap between actual required and approved implying terrible slow process of getting NGHAS bases.
> *Thus for MKI infrastructure new additional costs are there which of course is not told in public and in simple words, the fleet size numbers makes it justifiable.*
> *These costs in todays era will escalate a fresh MKI at super config to more than double the cost and ballpark assessments is in the range of $250 Mn when other aspects of repairs, service, engine life, weather issues, availability upgrade, etc*
> *In the words of the source, IAF has done 1:1 assessment submitted to MOD when asked about the comparative price of Rafale and MKI in a tabular form to have a clear understanding and it was proved and independently verified by MOD that Rafale packaged price came lower than MKI for a similar setup based packaged deal.*
> *It was uptill this point DM MP negotiated to get a proper justification of financial part of the deal.*
> Now some quotes from 16th standing parliamentary committee
> View attachment 335506
> 
> 
> View attachment 335507
> 
> +++
> Indian Express did an article last year on this
> http://indianexpress.com/article/in...khoi-30-fighters-have-no-protective-shelters/
> 
> Quotes
> _*The committee members were also informed by representatives of the MoD that the NGHAS “is a large project and it costs thousands of crores of rupees”. It was further informed that NGHAS are specialised structures and “are designed to save a Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft from direct hit of 2000 lbs bomb”*._
> 
> T_he committee, which is headed by Major General BC Khanduri (retd) noted that *it is extremely pertinent that no damage is caused to the available aircraft. It also said that while the New Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelter (NGHAS) project is conceptualised for this purpose, nevertheless, the committee desired that there should not be any delay in execution, as such delays have become a common feature of all the projects.*_
> 
> _In its recently tabled report on the manufacture of Sukhoi-30 MKI by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the *Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) too had pointed out certain anomalies with the aircraft due to it being parked in the open sun.*
> 
> The CAG report had mentioned that a review of 42 cases of repairs undertaken by HAL in Sukhoi 30 MKI, up to March 2010, disclosed that fuel leakage was the main snag in 36 cases and complaints relating to leakage from fuel tank were reported by IAF immediately after delivery of the aircraft. The leakages had caused pre-mature withdrawal of the aircraft from active flying.
> 
> *Among the reasons that that been attributed for the problem were that the Sukhoi-30 MKI had been “parked outside in hot conditions”. The HAL management had told CAG that the other reasons for leakages were operating the aircraft at higher ‘g’ levels, high manoeuvers and hard landings and aircraft parked without fuel for longer time. They had added that fuel leakages could not be fully excluded due to inherent design features of the aircraft.*
> 
> +++_
> If you see the above report you will get two points in mind quickly
> 
> The need of a NGHAS for our aircrafts
> Harsh Weather effects and other associated technical issues.
> Thus, this implied IAF and MOD has learned some lessons and the results are seen in this deal as well like
> 
> Procurement of a Base meeting minimum NATO standard as well as in country NGHAS standard
> Weather ill effects being clearly inputted in the initial contract signing itself.
> Existing old bases non confirming to NGHAS does not enable repalcement of fighters by Rafales owing to size compatibility issue as well as Ageing of older structures
> If you see the package details its covered here, these points were adequately covered
> View attachment 335508
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-327#post-8688450
> 
> +++
> 
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar 002 @anant_s @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @MilSpec @randomradio @Armani @GuardianRED @R!CK https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/


About corrosion : ALL Rafale, and not only the M variant, are protected in the same manner as the M variant. See quite all Charles de Gaulle carrier pics : you see Rafale parked outside, in the sealed air ambiance.

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## PARIKRAMA

BON PLAN said:


> Why not making Rafale M in MII ? It will be a nice news for Mérignac, but it's strange. The commonality between the différent models of Rafale is extremly high, appart the under carriage.



Need of a priority order.
On Dec 06, 2018 IAC 1 is suppose to be handed over for trials. Thats Indian navy Day and that is the timeline for the ship unless delayed. Once handed over 2 years easily for all extensive tests owing to indigenous project and initial teething hiccup issues.

Thats when the priority order for a immediate air wing delivery may be planned in case Mig29Ks numbers are not increased for operating in the carrier. Thus IN initial order might not be for IAC2 Vishal (which will come at a later stage) but for IAC-1 owing to limited Mig 29ks being available for deployment.

Unless we order and take just say 16 Mig 29K (sqd 303 has 16 jets) in each carrier and wait for LCA Naval variant to come and become part of this ACC at a later stage which of course means air arm of each carrier is severely limited and operational availability dimensions further cripples the wing numbers to single digits in each carrier.

Even though i said 2021 when IN may order they may order earlier as well bcz if order is to be executed on priority, its possible only via Merignac line. Indian line as and when it will come will have IAF orders first as priority for meeting its operational needs...

If we see that a new batch of Mig 29K are being ordered in this year summit or say next year summit then yes we might as well build the Rafale M order (if not priority) in India itself.




BON PLAN said:


> Thanks, but french economy doesn't depend on Rafale orders. GDP of France is 2200 euros billions....
> Even if I'm a old Rafale supporter, Airbus is a far more french GDP contributor.


I did not touch Airbus bcz thats in a different ball game all together.

In general if i understand and point out French folks somewhere has a image that Prez Hollande succumbs to external pressures be it USA or even India. Its not that i am not aware of the section within France who said its a sell out deal and against France at this juncture itself.
Their pov can be summed like this

_"our money, our jobs, our economy and i share a part of my salary to India bcz we agree to sell gusts to India"_
_"our prez could not even stop such basic things."_
_"why should we give technology to Inde and even pay them from our earnings"_
These are based out of what i could discuss and find. Its similar to our own country view _Why not MKI, why Not LCA, why not keep money in india only _of arguments but then tehy instantly catch attention and gullible masses agree to this POV. Right or wrong such POV always are an issue and a concern for any government be it India or France.

Imagine a situation when a line under MII is say formally unveiled. This is precisely why a line in India needs to make sure Meriganc line is not isolated. there are potential export order execution from Indian line as well. Such orders when executed from Indian line only will increase more complex issues. Thus, its precisely necessary that such a big deal takes care of certain other aspects as well and be considerate to both sides in order to arrive at a win win situation

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## BON PLAN

Ali Zadi said:


> So one thing that really fascinates me is the absence of any plans for the 5th generation plane for France. Now given M88 full potential in a dual configuration it can give an equal footing to the single engine F35 or the High mass J20 dual engine plane "Only taking about 5th generation engine specs nothing else"
> 
> That means if big modifications for RCS reduction and bays are integrated the Rafale can become a headache for any such fighter. Lets not forget this plane does stick with some of the points that goes into making a 5th Gen fighter "From Integration to data link/share"


In this case, we can mixed a potential "Super Rafale" and the AMCA project.

Same aerodynamic config than Rafale : Delta closed canard and semi ventral air intakes.
Cone nose and air intakes diamond shaped
2x10tons engine.
Internal bay for AtoA missile or a mix of few AtoA and AtoG weapons.
Front and side looking AESA antennae.
No vertical fin thanks to Dassault master class FBW know how.

....

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## Taygibay

4GTejasBVR said:


> My brother kindly go through my previous post. You are far from reality. Calm down and come down to earth and spell the reality



Spell, LOL, delicious! But the rest is not as great.
PariK reports what he has access to and you oppose, fine!
With incessant calls for a logic that you yourself don't apply.
and that is the disturbing part.



4GTejasBVR said:


> *36+18 is the deal we are signing. Don't know from where PARIKRAMA getting these source which even French ministry could deny.* It's true India need more fighters like rafale for various reasons but how far we can spend is the real question. PARIKRAMA says we will buy atleast 200 rafale. But India already investing in 150+ FGFA, 150+ AMCA, 200+ Tejas MK2. I mean seriously we have sufficient funds? I doubt it. By far IN will go for another 40+ rafale for its INS Vishal which will enter service by 2030. That too if Americans have no problem with India not buying carrier jets from them as many inputs are made available from US carrier programs. If India gets new Vikrant 2 rafale should be modified for ski jump rather mig29 or mi35 cuts the cue. If IN buy super carrier proposed by Russians then don't make any mistakes it could be aimed with N FGFA and AMCA and Tejas MK2.
> 
> *So these stupid so called source are really misleading and pathetic with these kind of claims. U dint even mentioned about another single engine fighter under make in India.* At most IAF will operate around 36 (by2022) 18 more as follow on by 2025. By this time India will have very matured fleet of fifth generation FGFA, handsomely upgraded Super Su, AMCA with promising results.
> 
> I will also claim that this is what my so. Called source based news says. Because it's far far away from timeline and reality
> 
> I really wish we have 200 rafale along with 300 sukoi by 2030. If this happened them it's good. But it's not the plan in first place as claimed by many here. Wishing is one thing Saying it as source is another thing as it misleading



What would Le Drian deny or have to deny? Contrarily to other DMs,
he never says too much in the first place. And if you mean about an
MII line or even just a simple second order, the person who clearly
said it was coming is not our MinDef but Éric Trappier himself in his
Results 2015 conference Q&A.

The numbers bandied around vary in credibility but Dassault's CEO's
sense of humour is way finer than inventing orders so that we know
that a different deal is under negotiations.

Well, insulting twice removed people you never met is a low PK exercise.
You may only be attacking the constrained interpretation of their message.
Plus, the following comparison with FGFA concerns an undeveloped plane.
And maybe others don't mention the foreign single engine line because it is
not coming.

You alone are responsible for believing what you read on fora, my man!
Besides, PariK is not the worst offender in that domain.

Heed to your own advice from top and calm down.
I hope life provides a nice setting for you to do so, Tay.

P.S.
Random R, you again answered _what you thought I said_, mate!
No system for another plane whichever can be called SPECTRA.
Find out why and you'll get the meaning of my post you quoted. 

And great day, Tay.

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## PARIKRAMA

Ali Zadi said:


> So one thing that really fascinates me is the absence of any plans for the 5th generation plane for France. Now given M88 full potential in a dual configuration it can give an equal footing to the single engine F35 or the High mass J20 dual engine plane "Only taking about 5th generation engine specs nothing else"
> 
> That means if big modifications for RCS reduction and bays are integrated the Rafale can become a headache for any such fighter. Lets not forget this plane does stick with some of the points that goes into making a 5th Gen fighter "From Integration to data link/share"





BON PLAN said:


> In this case, we can mixed a potential "Super Rafale" and the AMCA project.
> 
> Same aerodynamic config than Rafale : Delta closed canard and semi ventral air intakes.
> Cone nose and air intakes diamond shaped
> 2x10tons engine.
> Internal bay for AtoA missile or a mix of few AtoA and AtoG weapons.
> Front and side looking AESA antennae.
> No vertical fin thanks to Dassault master class FBW know how.
> 
> ....



That is something long back me and @Abingdonboy had discussed in this thread only some place. Its a logical choice but you need commercials to back such a deal and a good solid reasoning of why we should do this for India's LCA and AMCA projects.

That is where the deal size matters bcz only via that the commercial side can be defined and strategic intent of making India's MIC capable of building a higher quality jet with ease.



BON PLAN said:


> About corrosion : ALL Rafale, and not only the M variant, are protected in the same manner as the M variant. See quite all Charles de Gaulle carrier pics : you see Rafale parked outside, in the sealed air ambiance.


I am aware of that and the dark color in the Rafale M. The experience of IAF is much different as of today's fleet. The corrosion or weather effects have actually made them spend much more to repair, prep and actually at times ground and replace parts of the planes. By signing and agreeing for such a package they wish to get out of the burden and the cycle of planes being down for repairs.

One more thing, the sea air and salt corrosion is a bit different as compared to Indian weather cycles and seasonal changes based effects. The normal season and off seasonal stuff with climate and extreme vagaries of temperature, humid and particles will have a higher corrosive effect which i believe will impact the present Rafale M or Rafale coatings as of date. Of course field data and actual experience will be able to say it over time.

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## halloweene

GuardianRED said:


> Only now I have accepted that the Rafale is an excellent Pick for the IN, and with reports coming in that there might be a sister ship to Vikrant. A lame man's Q is that the Rafale will have no issue taking off a Ski Slop yes ?
> 
> + im sure it might have been posted before, But where will be MII line for the Rafale be in india?? and last the list of equipment added to the IAF variant of the Rafale (F3I??) would include the HMDS (Topowl?) and pod (Litening G4?) ??


Dassault assured that Rafale is slope compliant, but with less weight of course. There will be a HMDS, presumably israelian (or it could be the "scorpion" of F-22 as thalès bought the company, no clue). About pod, i dont know my bets on litening, but it could also be new thalès one (talios)

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## GuardianRED

halloweene said:


> Dassault assured that Rafale is slope compliant, but with less weight of course. There will be a HMDS, presumably israelian (or it could be the "scorpion" of F-22 as thalès bought the company, no clue). About pod, i dont know my bets on litening, but it could also be new thalès one (talios)


The point is the commonality for all IAF aircrafts.. We have the Topsights for the Mig29s , Mirage2000 (Future Su30) and the Litening Pod is for most aircrafts that can carry one i.e Su30,Migs 29, Mirages, Jaguars, LCA.

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## 4GTejasBVR

Taygibay said:


> Spell, LOL, delicious! But the rest is not as great.
> PariK reports what he has access to and you oppose, fine!
> With incessant calls for a logic that you yourself don't apply.
> and that is the disturbing part.
> 
> 
> 
> What would Le Drian deny or have to deny? Contrarily to other DMs,
> he never says too much in the first place. And if you mean about an
> MII line or even just a simple second order, the person who clearly
> said it was coming is not our MinDef but Éric Trappier himself in his
> Results 2015 conference Q&A.
> 
> The numbers bandied around vary in credibility but Dassault's CEO's
> sense of humour is way finer than inventing orders so that we know
> that a different deal is under negotiations.
> 
> Well, insulting twice removed people you never met is a low PK exercise.
> You may only be attacking the constrained interpretation of their message.
> Plus, the following comparison with FGFA concerns an undeveloped plane.
> And maybe others don't mention the foreign single engine line because it is
> not coming.
> 
> You alone are responsible for believing what you read on fora, my man!
> Besides, PariK is not the worst offender in that domain.
> 
> Heed to your own advice from top and calm down.
> I hope life provides a nice setting for you to do so, Tay.
> 
> P.S.
> Random R, you again answered _what you thought I said_, mate!
> No system for another plane whichever can be called SPECTRA.
> Find out why and you'll get the meaning of my post you quoted.
> 
> And great day, Tay.



OK so 200 rafale and no commitment to amca and MK2. And FGFA is under developed and won't be able see the light . OK.


----------



## Agent_47

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777503591720288257

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## Armani

Agent_47 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777503591720288257



Adds credence to the previously mentioned deal-signing date of 23rd.

Here's hoping it all goes to plan.

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## PARIKRAMA

The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age beyond visual range missile ‘Meteor’, and *Israeli helmet-mounted display. (@Abingdonboy @GuardianRED )*


http://www.financialexpress.com/eco...ister-to-arrive-on-sep-22/381235/?Socialmedia

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## [Bregs]

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 335642
> 
> 
> 
> The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age beyond visual range missile ‘Meteor’, and *Israeli helmet-mounted display. (@Abingdonboy @GuardianRED )*
> 
> 
> http://www.financialexpress.com/eco...ister-to-arrive-on-sep-22/381235/?Socialmedia



At last the D day arrives for this much awaited defense deal of the century

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 335642
> 
> 
> 
> The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age beyond visual range missile ‘Meteor’, and *Israeli helmet-mounted display. (@Abingdonboy @GuardianRED )*
> 
> 
> http://www.financialexpress.com/eco...ister-to-arrive-on-sep-22/381235/?Socialmedia


Weird, the TOPSIGHT-I Seems the more logical choice but there would be communality with the LCA (in the case of the DASH).

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## GuardianRED

Abingdonboy said:


> Weird, the TOPSIGHT-I Seems the more logical choice but there would be communality with the LCA (in the case of the DASH).


Honestly, atleast there is a HMDs, , where the French Rafale hasn't intergraded one yet!

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## Picdelamirand-oil

GuardianRED said:


> Honestly, atleast there is a HMDs, , where the French Rafale hasn't intergraded one yet!


No we have integrated a lot, It's just that French air force doesn't want an HMDS untill the weight is below 1.3 kg with all feature like night vision etc... (it's for security at ejection see F-35 for example)



Ali Zadi said:


> So one thing that really fascinates me is the absence of any plans for the 5th generation plane for France. Now given M88 full potential in a dual configuration it can give an equal footing to the single engine F35 or the High mass J20 dual engine plane "Only taking about 5th generation engine specs nothing else"


5th generation is a marketing approach from the US to disqualify competitor.
Stealth is not needed, what is needed is survivability, Stealth is only one of the means to get survivability.
In France we think that Rafale is more survivable than F-35. It use automated terrain following at very low height and high speed, EW system including active cancellation, great maneuverability for that.

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## Ali Zadi

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> 5th generation is a marketing approach from the US to disqualify competitor.
> Stealth is not needed, what is needed is survivability, Stealth is only one of the means to get survivability.
> In France we think that Rafale is more survivable than F-35. It use automated terrain following at very low height and high speed, EW system including active cancellation, great maneuverability for that.



I was about to say the same that Stealth is survivability and as Rafale does not have internal bays automatically it can carry more weapons, I have heard of F35 having problems fitting larger weapons. What also is interesting is that like the F35, Rafale is also suppose to serve several branch's like the Navy & Air Force and that makes both platform expandable friendly. A one on one exercise would be one to see but as always Americans would just argue "But all we need are BVR missiles they are the main idea" 

Speaking of the active cancellation I cant get any hands on the exact range of the system that it can cancel out there are people out there in the dark who say its pretty much on par with another thing the Americans have but I will talk about the EA-18G Growler instead which is like a loud speaker but Rafale has a much more interesting way to deal with this. More information for the same would be welcome.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Ali Zadi said:


> I was about to say the same that Stealth is survivability and as Rafale does not have internal bays automatically it can carry more weapons, I have heard of F35 having problems fitting larger weapons. What also is interesting is that like the F35, Rafale is also suppose to serve several branch's like the Navy & Air Force and that makes both platform expandable friendly. A one on one exercise would be one to see but as always Americans would just argue "But all we need are BVR missiles they are the main idea"
> 
> Speaking of the active cancellation I cant get any hands on the exact range of the system that it can cancel out there are people out there in the dark who say its pretty much on par with another thing the Americans have but I will talk about the EA-18G Growler instead which is like a loud speaker but Rafale has a much more interesting way to deal with this. More information for the same would be welcome.



https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/page-5#post-8339176
http://aviationweek.com/StealthTech#slide-6-field_images-1351991


> One enhancement to stealth is active cancelation (AC): onboard electronics detect a radar signal, locate the emitter and transmit a signal that exactly matches the echo received by the radar—but exactly half a wavelength out of phase, so that the radar sees nothing. AC has existed in theory for decades, and may have been considered for the B-2. In 1997, a French engineer said in an interview that the Rafale’s Spectra electronic warfare system (above) includes “stealth-jamming modes that make the aircraft invisible” and it was disclosed later that MBDA had tested an “active-stealth” system on a C-22 target UAV in 1999.

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## GuardianRED

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> No we have integrated a lot, It's just that French air force doesn't want an HMDS untill the weight is below 1.3 kg with all feature like night vision etc... (it's for security at ejection see F-35 for example)
> 
> 
> 5th generation is a marketing approach from the US to disqualify competitor.
> Stealth is not needed, what is needed is survivability, Stealth is only one of the means to get survivability.
> In France we think that Rafale is more survivable than F-35. It use automated terrain following at very low height and high speed, EW system including active cancellation, great maneuverability for that.


Did see an Old Documentary on F-35 vs the world , they showed simulators on how a 5th Gen aircraft is better than the current Nato and Russian Fed aircrafts. 

Yes as u said it was like a marketing video and biased to the f-35. It showed at what distant or how close the enemy can come close to the F-35 before getting destroyed (Current weapons load and specs includes Jamming , ECCM ,defensive ad and countermeasure was taken into account)

Aircraft - includes the Su30MK series, Typhoon, Rafale etc (can't remember the rest). And the closest aircraft to get to the F-35!.(if i remember correctly ) is The Rafale!

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## dadeechi

Hope it does not get go as planned and it gets delayed and signed on 26th instead.

India could use Uri incident as the reason for the delay..


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## Picdelamirand-oil

GuardianRED said:


> Did see an Old Documentary on F-35 vs the world , they showed simulators on how a 5th Gen aircraft is better than the current Nato and Russian Fed aircrafts.
> 
> Yes as u said it was like a marketing video and biased to the f-35. It showed at what distant or how close the enemy can come close to the F-35 before getting destroyed (Current weapons load and specs includes Jamming , ECCM ,defensive ad and countermeasure was taken into account)
> 
> Aircraft - includes the Su30MK series, Typhoon, Rafale etc (can't remember the rest). And the closest aircraft to get to the F-35!.(if i remember correctly ) is The Rafale!



Does it takes into account SPECTRA the integrated electronic survival system which embodies *a software -based virtual stealth technology*

Look at SPECTRA below!






https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/page-2#post-8172283

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## GuardianRED

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Does it takes into account SPECTRA the integrated electronic survival system which embodies *a software -based virtual stealth technology*
> 
> Look at SPECTRA below!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/page-2#post-8172283


Yes the sims, as well as the Experts, did take into account the SPECTRA system. (i'm trying to locate this documentary, will post it once found)



dadeechi said:


> Hope it does not get go as planned and it gets delayed and signed on 26th instead.
> 
> India could use Uri incident as the reason for the delay..


Why the 26th?

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## halloweene

GuardianRED said:


> Honestly, atleast there is a HMDs, , where the French Rafale hasn't intergraded one yet!


It is integrated, at least partially. (Pilot from Istres B301 told me personally), but not bought by AdlA

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## dadeechi

GuardianRED said:


> Why the 26th?



23rd is Ashtami while 26th is Ekadashi.

People who believe in Hinduism consider Ashtami (8th day in Hindu lunar calendar) to be an inauspicious day for signing such an important deal unless we want this deal to fail.

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## GuardianRED

dadeechi said:


> 23rd is Ashtami while 26th is Ekadashi.
> 
> People who believe in Hinduism consider Ashtami (8th day in Hindu lunar calendar) to be an inauspicious day for signing such an important deal unless we want this deal to fail.


But isn't the 23rd just an IGA and the actual signing at a later date whenever President Hollande comes to India?

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## BON PLAN

Agent_47 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/777503591720288257


Not actually confirmed by the French ministry of Defense....

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## debspark90

Has anyone considered the Israeli TARGO HMDS for the Rafale ?? Just asking

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## dadeechi

GuardianRED said:


> But isn't the 23rd just an IGA and the actual signing at a later date whenever President Hollande comes to India?



28-AUG-2007 : The RFP for MMRCA was released
=================================================

It fell on Prathama, Krishna paksha, Bhadrapada maasam
If it was released a few days earlier it would have been Shraavana maasam which is the most auspicious month and Shukla paksha which is considered more auspicious than Krishna paksha.

Those few days of delay in issuing the RFP has cost a great amount of delays to the entire program


31-JAN-2012 : RAFALE was announced as the winner
====================================================

It fell on Ashtami, Shukla paksha, Magha Maasam

It could have been announced on Sunday 29-JAN-2012 which was Ratha Saptami. Coincidentally it fell on Sunday.
The day is very auspicious for Sun god and tied to Uttarayanam (first half of the year) which is preferred to Dakshinayanam (second half of the year)


Now we know why it was that difficult to close the deal even after the selection of RAFALE.
It was only being made possible after the cancellation of MMRCA deal negating the earlier ill selected date.


10-APR-2015 : Modi and Hollande announce the new jet deal for 36 RAFALEs
=========================================================================

It fell on Shasti, Krishna paksha, Chaitra maasam

They could have announced it on 9th which was Panchami and preferred day than Shasti. I hope that the agreement was signed on the 9th.


=======================================================================================================================================================================


Now we take the stand that is convenient for us like saying this is only an IGA and not the final contract but each of these steps have their own significance and leads to the other.

What has to happen will happen as the fate has already been written by Brahma.

As mortals we need to perform our karma.

I have done my 2 cents of Karma by highlighting it.

It is up to the people in power to take it or leave it.


PS : When Krishna saw that shadow of moon in milk all his advisors play down the incidence saying that it was only the shadow and he did not see the moon but Krishna knew and was blamed for stealing Syamantakamani by Satrajit.

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## R!CK

debspark90 said:


> Has anyone considered the Israeli TARGO HMDS for the Rafale ?? Just asking



@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy 

Might turn out to be a bit of controversy, but LCA now uses Elbit Targo HMDS and not DASH. Were you guys aware of this? However, I'd expect the Rafales to operate the same HMDS as Mirages, atleast for now.






http://elbitsystems.com/product/targo/






Good Day!

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## GuardianRED

R!CK said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy
> 
> Might turn out to be a bit of controversy, but LCA now uses Elbit Targo HMDS and not DASH. Were you guys aware of this? However, I'd expect the Rafales to operate the same HMDS as Mirages, atleast for now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://elbitsystems.com/product/targo/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good Day!


Honestly , from videos (Eg: Bahrain Airshow) The HMDS looks like the Elbit Targo HMDS. 
(Unless both Targo and DASH looks the same)

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## debspark90

R!CK said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy
> 
> Might turn out to be a bit of controversy, but LCA now uses Elbit Targo HMDS and not DASH. Were you guys aware of this? However, I'd expect the Rafales to operate the same HMDS as Mirages, atleast for now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good Day!


Ya Lokesh is my friend btw and we were discussing about whether the Targo is being use in Tejas ot not and he asked Tejas-LCA page for it.



GuardianRED said:


> Honestly , from videos (Eg: Bahrain Airshow) The HMDS looks like the Elbit Targo HMDS.
> (Unless both Targo and DASH looks the same)



Yes well there are certain differences in the back design of this helmet compared to the Targo but then again DASH isn't like this either.

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## SR-91

dadeechi said:


> 28-AUG-2007 : The RFP for MMRCA was released
> =================================================
> 
> It fell on Prathama, Krishna paksha, Bhadrapada maasam
> If it was released a few days earlier it would have been Shraavana maasam which is the most auspicious month and Shukla paksha which is considered more auspicious than Krishna paksha.
> 
> Those few days of delay in issuing the RFP has cost a great amount of delays to the entire program
> 
> 
> 31-JAN-2012 : RAFALE was announced as the winner
> ====================================================
> 
> It fell on Ashtami, Shukla paksha, Magha Maasam
> 
> It could have been announced on Sunday 29-JAN-2012 which was Ratha Saptami. Coincidentally it fell on Sunday.
> The day is very auspicious for Sun god and tied to Uttarayanam (first half of the year) which is preferred to Dakshinayanam (second half of the year)
> 
> 
> Now we know why it was that difficult to close the deal even after the selection of RAFALE.
> It was only being made possible after the cancellation of MMRCA deal negating the earlier ill selected date.
> 
> 
> 10-APR-2015 : Modi and Hollande announce the new jet deal for 36 RAFALEs
> =========================================================================
> 
> It fell on Shasti, Krishna paksha, Chaitra maasam
> 
> They could have announced it on 9th which was Panchami and preferred day than Shasti. I hope that the agreement was signed on the 9th.
> 
> 
> =======================================================================================================================================================================
> 
> 
> Now we take the stand that is convenient for us like saying this is only an IGA and not the final contract but each of these steps have their own significance and leads to the other.
> 
> What has to happen will happen as the fate has already been written by Brahma.
> 
> As mortals we need to perform our karma.
> 
> I have done my 2 cents of Karma by highlighting it.
> 
> It is up to the people in power to take it or leave it.
> 
> 
> PS : When Krishna saw that shadow of moon in milk all his advisors play down the incidence saying that it was only the shadow and he did not see the moon but Krishna knew and was blamed for stealing Syamantakamani by Satrajit.




@dadeechi, it's the name of the monkey that was around shree Krishna, when he was growing up. 
Is that it??


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## Ankit Kumar 002

Jean-Yves Le Drian will travel to New Delhi Thursday, September 22 in the evening, where the soap opera of the Rafale contract seems to finally arrive, told AFP an official of the Indian Ministry of Defence. This trip of French Defence Minister could finalize the intergovernmental agreement actant the purchase of 36 Rafale aircraft to France by New Delhi.

http://live.lesechos.fr/64/0211305002964.php#xtor=CS1-105

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## eldamar

can some1 please explain how is 36 rafales going to make any meaningful difference in replacing the soon-to-be-decommisoned Mig-21s?


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## Picdelamirand-oil

eldarlmari said:


> can some1 please explain how is 36 rafales going to make any meaningful difference in replacing the soon-to-be-decommisoned Mig-21s?


It's just the start of a long story.

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## 4GTejasBVR

eldarlmari said:


> can some1 please explain how is 36 rafales going to make any meaningful difference in replacing the soon-to-be-decommisoned Mig-21s?


Rafale is not mig 21 replacement. But for mig27. Mig21 will be replaced with Tejas and another imported single engine fighter


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## eldamar

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> It's just the start of a long story.



If you are refering to the original 126 units proposal, i know the story. Rather, my point now is how is the revised 36 units costing billions gonna make any substantial difference to the operational requirements of IAF?

Is India buying the 36 rafales now *just for the sake of buying?*


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## randomradio

eldarlmari said:


> can some1 please explain how is 36 rafales going to make any meaningful difference in replacing the soon-to-be-decommisoned Mig-21s?



The first 36 are meant for delivering nuclear weapons. Note the word 'first'.

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## eldamar

randomradio said:


> The first 36 are meant for delivering nuclear weapons. Note the word 'first'.



1)India needs *at least* 42 squadrons for her operational requirements. <== correct me if im wrong
2)India has only 32 squadrons now. <== correct me if im wrong.
3)India is set to lose another further 14 squadrons with the incoming decommisioning of the mig21s and 27s. <== correct me if im wrong.
4)1 squadron in the Indian Air force consists of 16-18 planes. <=== correct me if im wrong.
5)The Rafales deal specifically confirmed only 36units(to be signed on the 23 sep this mth) <=== correct me if im wrong

This means IAF would be left with 18 squadrons(after the Mig21s and 27s).
42- 18 = 24 squadrons worth of planes in total.
24 x 16(as a minimum) = *384 planes needed minimally *just for the *Air force alone*.

How is the handful of tejas and 36 rafales gonna change all these?
What's that 'imported single engine fighter'?

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## Picdelamirand-oil

eldarlmari said:


> If you are refering to the original 126 units proposal, i know the story. Rather, my point now is how is the revised 36 units costing billions gonna make any substantial difference to the operational requirements of IAF?
> 
> Is India buying the 36 rafales now *just for the sake of buying?*


Yes 36 is small for a country like India, and these first 36 are mainly for delivering nuclear weapons. But 36 Rafale is not something negligible, in France it is considered that one Rafale can replace 3 mirage 2000, and we had replaced 593 older aircraft with only 140 Rafale. If we use the same rate for India that means you can replace 150 older aircraft with the first 36 Rafale.

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## eldamar

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Yes 36 is small for a country like India, and these first 36 are mainly for delivering nuclear weapons. But 36 Rafale is not something negligible, in France it is considered that one Rafale can replace 3 mirage 2000, and we had replaced 593 older aircraft with only 140 Rafale. If we use the same rate for India that means you can replace 150 older aircraft with the first 36 Rafale.



Ok so what u r saying is India is willing to get just the 36 Rafales mainly in order to fullfill the role of her nuclear delivery platform aka the strategic airwing of her envisioned nuclear triad? Another thing is India is not France geographically and geopolitically. It's already been stated she needs 42 squadrons to protect her borders up north and west So how does the capability of 36 Rafale has got anything to do with the quantity needed?(take note im not even going into the capability segment of the planes themselves)



eldarlmari said:


> Ok so what u r saying is India is willing to get just the 36 Rafales mainly in order to fullfill the role of her nuclear delivery platform aka the strategic airwing of her envisioned nuclear triad? Another thing is India is not France geographically and geopolitically. It's already been stated she needs 42 squadrons to protect her borders up north and west So how does the capability of 36 Rafale has got anything to do with the quantity needed?(take note im not even going into the capability segment of the planes themselves)



We we were to follow your point(that 1 Plane X can fullfill the role of 4 Plane Y) as a benchmark, then India might as well dump all her money into the PMF project with Russia.

Surely, 36 PMFs would be a better deal? No?(using the logic that 1 Plane X can fullfill the role of 4 Plane Ys)


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## GuardianRED

eldarlmari said:


> Ok so what u r saying is India is willing to get just the 36 Rafales mainly in order to fullfill the role of her nuclear delivery platform aka the strategic airwing of her envisioned nuclear triad? Another thing is India is not France geographically and geopolitically. It's already been stated she needs 42 squadrons to protect her borders up north and west So how does the capability of 36 Rafale has got anything to do with the quantity needed?(take note im not even going into the capability segment of the planes themselves)
> 
> 
> 
> We we were to follow your point(that 1 Plane X can fullfill the role of 4 Plane Y) as a benchmark, then India might as well dump all her money into the PMF project with Russia.
> 
> Surely, 36 PMFs would be a better deal? no(using the logic that 1 Plane X can fullfill the role of 4 Plane Ys)?


Pal there are 300+ pages on this thread that explain why the reason the Rafale is choosen including the role and the Quantity that is brought

U have failed to understand that in addition to this , its not a Handful of Tejas but 200+ frames are envisioned ie. of Mk1,Mk1A and Mk2s. Plus there are other programs that are running concurrently ie the Upgrade programs for the jaguars, Mig29s and Mirage 2000s and soon to be added , the Super 30 Program .

Thought the IAF is sanctioned 42 Sqd*. THIS isn't written in stone!*. and that requirement is like 10 - 15 yrs back, which unfortunately our gullible media like to parrot once in a while. Its 2016 and it is the IAF which is the best institution to understand their own requirements and operational need!

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## eldamar

GuardianRED said:


> Pal there are 300+ pages on this thread that explain why the reason the Rafale is choosen including the role and the Quantity that is brought
> 
> U have failed to understand that in addition to this , its not a Handful of Tejas but 200+ frames are envisioned ie. of Mk1,Mk1A and Mk2s. Plus there are other programs that are running concurrently ie the Upgrade programs for the jaguars, Mig29s and Mirage 2000s and soon to be added , the Super 30 Program .
> 
> Thought the IAF is sanctioned 42 Sqd*. THIS isn't written in stone!*. and that requirement is like 10 - 15 yrs back, which unfortunately our gullible media like to parrot once in a while. Its 2016 and it is the IAF which is the best institution to understand their own requirements and operational need!



1) u sure there are 300+ pages explaining why 36 Rafales is bought on the basis for quantified operational requirements(which im basing my opinions about)?
2)of cos i know there would be more Tejas coming in(even my grandma would be able to figure that out that India would not be procuring 'just a handful of Tejas' after developing the plane for more than 3 decades). But how many has she now? Is it enough to fullfill her already lacking requirements for her Air force?
3)Mk2 (by an Indian source):

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...s-instead-of-40-planned-earlier/1/495723.html

The article has stated that the MkII will never become a reality.

4)Sorry im a abit dumb I dont get your point- What has* upgrades for existing jets* (e.g like the super Sukhoi for the SUk30s, Mi29, etc) gotta do with *increasing new squadron numbers*?

5)So you are saying IAF has a requirement for lesser squadrons now? since u are sure that it's 'not set in stone' when so many recent articles all stated 42 squadrons, surely u know the amount of
leeser squadrons she would need now?


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## GuardianRED

eldarlmari said:


> 1) u sure there are 300+ pages explaining why 36 Rafales is bought on the basis for quantified operational requirements(which im basing my opinions about)?
> 2)of cos i know there would be more Tejas coming in(even my grandma would be able to figure that out that India would not be procuring 'just a handful of Tejas' after developing the plane for more than 3 decades). But how many has she now? Is it enough to fullfill her already lacking requirements for her Air force?
> 3)Mk2 (by an Indian source):
> 
> http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...s-instead-of-40-planned-earlier/1/495723.html
> 
> The article has stated that the MkII will never become a reality.
> 
> 4)Sorry im a abit dumb I dont get your point- What has* upgrades for existing jets* (e.g like the super Sukhoi for the SUk30s, Mi29, etc) gotta do with *increasing new squadron numbers*?
> 
> 5)So you are saying IAF has a requirement for lesser squadrons now? since u are sure that it's 'not set in stone' when so many recent articles all stated 42 squadrons, surely u know the amount of
> leeser squadrons she would need now?



So it is true that u have fallen for those every Gullible reports! that is very Sad

From what u have written either go ask your grandma for the details and development of the Tejas and its future or just go to the Thread here on PDF (there too 200+ Pages)

Do you understand that what upgrades goes to Fighting aircraft or like playing dumb? That these every upgrade can and well increase the capability and envelop of the single frame that the need for more frames is reduced.

Again you failed to understand the Term "Not set in Stone" and "Sanctioned" or you are playing dumb here again? The IAF is the best institution to Judge what are they need and are not placed on this earth to please U and tell u what they want and don't want

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## randomradio

eldarlmari said:


> 1)India needs *at least* 42 squadrons for her operational requirements. <== correct me if im wrong
> 2)India has only 32 squadrons now. <== correct me if im wrong.
> 3)India is set to lose another further 14 squadrons with the incoming decommisioning of the mig21s and 27s. <== correct me if im wrong.
> 4)1 squadron in the Indian Air force consists of 16-18 planes. <=== correct me if im wrong.
> 5)The Rafales deal specifically confirmed only 36units(to be signed on the 23 sep this mth) <=== correct me if im wrong
> 
> This means IAF would be left with 18 squadrons(after the Mig21s and 27s).
> 42- 18 = 24 squadrons worth of planes in total.
> 24 x 16(as a minimum) = *384 planes needed minimally *just for the *Air force alone*.
> 
> How is the handful of tejas and 36 rafales gonna change all these?
> What's that 'imported single engine fighter'?



Your numbers are quite accurate. We need 400 new jets for the IAF and 150 new jets for the IN.

Out of those, the first 36 Rafales are an urgent requirement. Apart from that we could have anywhere between 120 and 180 Rafales through the MII (Make in India) program. And then there is a separate requirement to manufacture 90-120 single engine jets, Gripen, F-16 etc. Then there's the LCA program for 120 jets. That takes care of the 400 jets that the IAF needs.

As for the IN, they will be going for 45 N-LCAs and 54 Rafales. If they join in the IAF's MII program for Rafales, even they may order more than 100 Rafales.



eldarlmari said:


> We we were to follow your point(that 1 Plane X can fullfill the role of 4 Plane Y) as a benchmark, then India might as well dump all her money into the PMF project with Russia.
> 
> Surely, 36 PMFs would be a better deal? No?(using the logic that 1 Plane X can fullfill the role of 4 Plane Ys)



The PMF will come in when we start plans for replacing jets like the Mig-29. The T-50 isn't good enough today, it isn't mature.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

eldarlmari said:


> Ok so what u r saying is India is willing to get just the 36 Rafales mainly in order to fullfill the role of her nuclear delivery platform aka the strategic airwing of her envisioned nuclear triad? Another thing is India is not France geographically and geopolitically. It's already been stated she needs 42 squadrons to protect her borders up north and west So how does the capability of 36 Rafale has got anything to do with the quantity needed?(take note im not even going into the capability segment of the planes themselves)
> 
> 
> 
> We we were to follow your point(that 1 Plane X can fullfill the role of 4 Plane Y) as a benchmark, then India might as well dump all her money into the PMF project with Russia.
> 
> Surely, 36 PMFs would be a better deal? No?(using the logic that 1 Plane X can fullfill the role of 4 Plane Ys)


Yes you need 42 squadron, but for the moment you have only 32 and there is a threat that it decrease to 18. In this situation your objective would be to maintain the 32 instead of going to 18. 36 Rafale is at relatively short term compared to PAK-FA and I believe that you will add also some SU-30 to reach up to 300 units and more.

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## eldamar

GuardianRED said:


> So it is true that u have fallen for those every Gullible reports! that is very Sad
> 
> From what u have written either go ask your grandma for the details and development of the Tejas and its future or just go to the Thread here on PDF (there too 200+ Pages)
> 
> Do you understand that what upgrades goes to Fighting aircraft or like playing dumb? That these every upgrade can and well increase the capability and envelop of the single frame that the need for more frames is reduced.
> 
> Again you failed to understand the Term "Not set in Stone" and "Sanctioned" or you are playing dumb here again? The IAF is the best institution to Judge what are they need and are not placed on this earth to please U and tell u what they want and don't want



1)From *what* have i written? i rather 'fall' for these guilable INDIAN reports about INDIAN planes(Rafales is considered an Indian plane if it's inducted into the IAF) than to listen to some emotional repeititive speculator who doesnt even know what he's talking about. on a defence forum.
2)What has upgrades for existing inventory got to do with increasing new squadron numbers? u're deliberately being evasive the second time and throwing another https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring.
3)So u r saying due to the upgrades and 'increased capapbilities', squadron requirements are now lesser for the IAF(due to each plane being 'more capable' e.g 1 plane X can now shoot down 10 enemy plane Z)? If so, link source pls.

Atually forget it, cos i could see that u r just being evasive by going 'merry go round' and repeating everything for the second time with your blind rhetoric with no idea of what u r even talking about yourself.



randomradio said:


> Your numbers are quite accurate. We need 400 new jets for the IAF and 150 new jets for the IN.
> 
> Out of those, the first 36 Rafales are an urgent requirement. Apart from that we could have anywhere between 120 and 180 Rafales through the MII (Make in India) program. And then there is a separate requirement to manufacture 90-120 single engine jets, Gripen, F-16 etc. Then there's the LCA program for 120 jets. That takes care of the 400 jets that the IAF needs.
> 
> As for the IN, they will be going for 45 N-LCAs and 54 Rafales. If they join in the IAF's MII program for Rafales, even they may order more than 100 Rafales.
> 
> 
> 
> The PMF will come in when we start plans for replacing jets like the Mig-29. The T-50 isn't good enough today, it isn't mature.



ok good enough. So your end statement is:

these 36 rafales are just there to 'fill in the big gap' with whatever the IAF could satisfactorily find for the moment- no matter how small this gap-filler is until the PMF comes along in the future

Am i right?


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## randomradio

eldarlmari said:


> ok good enough. So your end statement is:
> 
> these 36 rafales are just there to 'fill in the big gap' with whatever the IAF could satisfactorily find for the moment- no matter how small this gap-filler is until the PMF comes along in the future
> 
> Am i right?



No, the 36 jets are meant for the SFC. 

https://defence.pk/threads/india-strategic-command-to-acquire-40-nuclear-capable-fighters.72496/

The IAF will retain operational control over the jets, but the C&C will be with the SFC. Any move to 'fill in some gaps' will either be done by ordering 2 more MKI squadrons or ordering 3 squadrons of the Russian version of PAK FA. They are yet to make a decision, maybe already made.

IAF's requirement for 400 jets is still pending and that will be met via the MII programs for 3 different jets, Rafale/single engine/LCA. The LCA MII has already begun. We have reached an agreement with the French for the Rafale MII, but contract negotiations have to start, that will happen once we have setup the bureaucratic procedures for it. That could happen this year end or early next year. As for the single engine, we will be choosing the Gripen, F-16 or another indigenous Indian jet called the LSA, which is a single engine stealth jet.

The PMF has nothing to do with the Rafale/single engine/LCA etc. The PMF and the AMCA will be needed when we start replacing about 175 jets starting from 2027 and more than 250 jets after 2030. There will also be an increase in squadron strength of the IAF after 2030, their actual requirement is 54 squadrons.

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## SR-91

eldarlmari said:


> 1) u sure there are 300+ pages explaining why 36 Rafales is bought on the basis for quantified operational requirements(which im basing my opinions about)?
> 2)of cos i know there would be more Tejas coming in(even my grandma would be able to figure that out that India would not be procuring 'just a handful of Tejas' after developing the plane for more than 3 decades). But how many has she now? Is it enough to fullfill her already lacking requirements for her Air force?
> 3)Mk2 (by an Indian source):
> 
> http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...s-instead-of-40-planned-earlier/1/495723.html
> 
> The article has stated that the MkII will never become a reality.
> 
> 4)Sorry im a abit dumb I dont get your point- What has* upgrades for existing jets* (e.g like the super Sukhoi for the SUk30s, Mi29, etc) gotta do with *increasing new squadron numbers*?
> 
> 5)So you are saying IAF has a requirement for lesser squadrons now? since u are sure that it's 'not set in stone' when so many recent articles all stated 42 squadrons, surely u know the amount of
> leeser squadrons she would need now?




Number of squadrons will NOT change however IAF will reduce number of planes in each squadron to make up *numbers* of squadrons.

We will be inducting about 12 to 16 MKI this year. 20+ jets in 2017. 20-30 jets in 2018. Rafales starts arriving in 2019. So will LCA MK1-A.

To gain technical advantage we are upgrading all jets other jet that has life left in their airframes.

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## Taygibay

eldarlmari said:


> _I'd rather_ 'fall' for these guilable INDIAN reports about INDIAN planes(Rafales is considered an Indian plane if it's inducted into the IAF) _than to listen to some emotional repeititive speculator who doesnt even know what he's talking about. on a defence forum._



Then why are you asking questions here? 
Especially after 4 years of inactivity.

Just wonderin', Tay.

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## Agent_47

randomradio said:


> actual requirement is 54 squadrons.


People keep referring to this number, where does this come from?

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## Indiran Chandiran

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Yes 36 is small for a country like India, and these first 36 are mainly for delivering nuclear weapons. But 36 Rafale is not something negligible, in France it is considered that one Rafale can replace 3 mirage 2000, and we had replaced 593 older aircraft with only 140 Rafale. If we use the same rate for India that means you can replace 150 older aircraft with the first 36 Rafale.




Please quantify your threat perception.We are faced with 2 N armed neighbours with whom we've fought wars & have long pending unresolved issues.I'm sure France didn't break down the equation into the simple one you've formulated however powerful a fighter Rafale is ( Note - I'm not denying it's efficacy ) .Please weigh that against China's & Pakistan's air forces including future acquisitions in the period between 2019-26.

In fact , beginning next year when we begin mothballing the MIG 27 ( already dead as they rarely fly out on patrol duty ) till 2030 when the aircraft we're retiring will be much more than the ones we're inducting , will form one of the most critical periods in the life of the IAF.God forbid ,if we were to get into a conflict situation , we haven't even tied up with major power to loan their aircrafts. This reflects the depth in our strategic planning .

I'm merely pointing out & supporting @eldarlmari post that our replacements when they start coming in the form of the Tejas ( Mk 1 , 1a & (2??) ) , Rafale & FGFA seems too little , too late.

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## randomradio

Agent_47 said:


> People keep referring to this number, where does this come from?



The IAF itself. The numbers are generally between 54 and 59 depending on who you ask and has been rounded off to 60 squadrons. But this was back in the 1950s, still unchanged.

Eventually the IAF decided to maintain 45 squadrons as their minimum necessary due to the realities of our situation, and that didn't happen until this century with the govt sanctioning 42 squadrons.

Personally, with the addition of a large number of attack helicopters and UCAVs, we may not need that many. But this is the IAF we are talking about, so you never know.



Indiran Chandiran said:


> Please quantify your threat perception.We are faced with 2 N armed neighbours with whom we've fought wars & have long pending unresolved issues.I'm sure France didn't break down the equation into the simple one you've formulated however powerful a fighter Rafale is ( Note - I'm not denying it's efficacy ) .Please weigh that against China's & Pakistan's air forces including future acquisitions in the period between 2019-26.
> 
> In fact , beginning next year when we begin mothballing the MIG 27 ( already dead as they rarely fly out on patrol duty ) till 2030 when the aircraft we're retiring will be much more than the ones we're inducting , will form one of the most critical periods in the life of the IAF.God forbid ,if we were to get into a conflict situation , we haven't even tied up with major power to loan their aircrafts. This reflects the depth in our strategic planning .
> 
> I'm merely pointing out & supporting @eldarlmari post that our replacements when they start coming in the form of the Tejas ( Mk 1 , 1a & (2??) ) , Rafale & FGFA seems too little , too late.



China and Pakistan will both be well behind us as and when our jets start coming in.

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## Ind4Ever



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## PARIKRAMA

There are 4 lines in India planned over time with simple production schedules

LWF LCA line 2018 onwards - HAL as of now + may include a future private line
MMRCA line 2021+ - Rafale
LWF line - 2022-23+ - can be F16, Gripen E as LCA Mk2 and LSA as LCA Mk2 as well
Heavy 5th Gen fighter 2026+ - HAL line upgraded from MKI line
The MKI even though we may ink another 40 to raise the number to 312 actually goes just in replacing the numbers of retirees uptill 2023 timeline.

In essence you will see a bare minimum maintenance of present squadron strength till 2023 before you see a replacement cycle with Point 2 and 3 kicking in with full production rate and slowly and steadily the squadron strength will go up to meet necessary requirements.

Uptill 2027 timeline we will reach our requisite strength and post that the multiplier effect will push towards the higher squadron number ~54-56 squadrons over time towards the middle of 2030s which will see another set of fighters retiring and squadron strength returning to mid 40s before next phase of production of AMCA line starts the multiplier effect to build up again.

Beyond this will be 4-6 squadrons of UCAV and Armed UAVs for strike missions. Much depends upon the AURA project and Ghatak program success for this squadron numbers. But we have enough timeframe to make it a success.

Helos will not be considered in this squadron strength and in general they will continue to be counted in IAF stables. Its same for rotary craft in other functions within IAF.

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## Norge Stronk

Taygibay said:


> Then why are you asking questions here?



Good call, French Bread. Everything on PDF is overly emotional and put forth by ignorant fools... so what else does someone expect here?

For instance, talk crap on Norway and. Totally measured response by PDF standards, but kind of emotional and nationalistic. And don't even get me started on the quality of my posts.


...

Also, this damn thing is still going on. Yeah alright, I'll check back in a few months for some progress.

At least the IN got the anchor out of its pants (apart from its sub procurement).

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## Ind4Ever

Agent_47 said:


> People keep referring to this number, where does this come from?


It's of roughly worked out calculation at times of two front war.

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## Indiran Chandiran

randomradio said:


> China and Pakistan will both be well behind us as and when our jets start coming in.




Could you be kind enough to elaborate ? Perhaps , venture a qualitative estimate of their air forces circa 2025 - 2030 ?


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## Ind4Ever

Agent_47 said:


> People keep referring to this number, where does this come from?


But it was also at times when availability of su and rest of the fleet were lower than current status. Once we conclude the deal with Russians for making sophisticated spares for Su30 fleet then its like adding more new fighters. Chinese make overall all spares for their su 30 and j11 fleet so we need more advanced fighters in both medium and light categories. That's where Rafale and Tejas comes into the play. We also upgraded our Mirage fleets so rafale and Mirage combo will yield more positive results. Tejas usually be used for point defence means rest of the fleet can be put against our enemies. Sukois carry out numerous roles includes deep strike, air superiority and coastal defense and surveillance at times. Rafale and Tejas can take of this load shed making sukoi as our sole air superiority fighter. While rafale used against high strategic targets aiding deep strike mission of Sukois. 

Numbers are needed but we can manage our present threats with more advanced rafale.

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## Indiran Chandiran

PARIKRAMA said:


> LWF line - 2022-23+ - can be F16, Gripen E as LCA Mk2 and LSA as LCA Mk2 as well




In fact , they should either opt for imports of 6-8 squadrons of F - 16 or take up LM's offer of dismantling their existing plant & re setting the entire plant here.I hope we aren't too dogged about MII on this one as that's the only fair chance we have of inducting a tried & tested fighter ASAP into the IAF to make up the depleting nos . pronto

This should be done now , so that we can have the first planes roll out by 2019 & not 2023 - 26 timelines .

The alternatives to this could also be explored viz - Su 35 or maybe a combination of both Su 35 & F - 16 in equal nos.

The Gripen E is still in development mode & the LSA may well turn out to be another experiment which time doesn't afford .

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## Vergennes

Ind4Ever said:


> View attachment 335947



In case some didn't notice,under the Rafale we can see a ASMP/A missile,which is the french strategic forces nuclear air-launched cruise missile. 







Norge Stronk said:


> Good call, French Bread. Everything on PDF is overly emotional and put forth by ignorant fools... so what else does someone expect here?
> 
> For instance, talk crap on Norway and. Totally measured response by PDF standards, but kind of emotional and nationalistic. And don't even get me started on the quality of my posts.
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> Also, this damn thing is still going on. Yeah alright, I'll check back in a few months for some progress.
> 
> At least the IN got the anchor out of its pants (apart from its sub procurement).



Who is Norway ? 
Never heard of him.

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## Ind4Ever

Vergennes said:


> In case some didn't notice,under the Rafale we can see a ASMP/A missile,which is the french strategic forces nuclear air-launched cruise missile.
> 
> View attachment 335952
> 
> 
> 
> Who is Norway ?
> Never heard of him.


It won't go unnoticed  hope we get these too


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## Norge Stronk

Vergennes said:


> Who is Norway ?
> Never heard of him.



Either I'm drunk or you posted twice!! I swear I saw double!

Oh well, nothing more alcohol wont solve.








Ind4Ever said:


> hope we get these too



Psst. Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

While India is not, France is a part to the NPT and therefore abides by the rules set forth within it... rules that include not exporting or jointly developing nuclear capable delivery systems.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Now where is your main account.. It looks better when you have that professional tag written beneath your name...



But, but then people start asking me too many questions thinking I'll have an answer for them about a subject I know nothing about just because I'm a defense industry pro. So I have to make something up, and make it sound smart to convince them I know what I'm talking about, and they parrot that info to others having taken my word at face value. Then that rumor gets around and before you know it Palau is a nuclear armed nation according to PDF!!!

Too much pressure. Without that accursed "Professional" title I can come across as being as ignorant as I truly am, and still occasionally surprise people with something smart.

Of course this doesn't mean I'm not actually a defense professional outside of PDF.

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## Ind4Ever

Compared to current missile ASMP, the ASMPA would offer a greater range (500 to 600 km) and a greater diversity of trajectories, including final penetrations maneuvers at very low altitude. This missile, the successor to the ASMP carried by the Mirage 2000N and Super Etendard Modernized (SEM), is equipped with the new airborne nuclear warhead (TNA) with a power of 300 kilotons. With an estimated range of 500 kilometers at high-altitude, ASMPA is powered by a ramjet, which gives it a higher speed of around Mach 3. Capable of flying very low, it has penetration capacity and increased accuracy compared to its predecessor. This missile is implemented by the Mirage 2000N, Rafale Air and Navy Rafale.

And this could make our Mirage fleet even more deadlier  . But why only 54 bought by France? These missiles can be used for conventional missions at large scale. Stand alone range 500-600 km with 300 kg war heads at Mach 3


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## Spectre

Norge Stronk said:


> Palau is a nuclear armed nation



Wait! It isn't?

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## Ind4Ever

Norge Stronk said:


> Psst. Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
> 
> While India is not, France is a part to the NPT and therefor abides by the rules set forth within it... rules that include no exporting or jointly developing nuclear capable delivery systems..



France will not transfer ASMP-A missiles to India but it can carry Nukes. Under ground transfer pls

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## Agent_47

randomradio said:


> The IAF itself. The numbers are generally between 54 and 59 depending on who you ask and has been rounded off to 60 squadrons. But this was back in the 1950s, still unchanged.
> 
> Eventually the IAF decided to maintain 45 squadrons as their minimum necessary due to the realities of our situation, and that didn't happen until this century with the govt sanctioning 42 squadrons.
> 
> Personally, with the addition of a large number of attack helicopters and UCAVs, we may not need that many. But this is the IAF we are talking about, so you never know.
> 
> China and Pakistan will both be well behind us as and when our jets start coming in.



I have seen @vstrol stating sanctioned strength as 45 sq. Whatever the number 'multirole' aspect will make requirements minimum (as we have discussed before). That being said, dedicated electronic attack platforms will be a force multiplier like E/A-18G. MKI would be a nice candidate for the modifications. Chinese are already doing it.

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## mike2000 is back

Vergennes said:


> In case some didn't notice,under the Rafale we can see a ASMP/A missile,which is the french strategic forces nuclear air-launched cruise missile.
> 
> View attachment 335952
> 
> 
> 
> Who is Norway ?
> Never heard of him.



Frero, j'ai eu une notification que tu m'a mentionné? mais je vois rien ici. 
Huh.....Je fais des rêves où tout va bien?

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## Vergennes

mike2000 is back said:


> Frero, j'ai eu une notification que tu m'a mentionné? mais je vois rien ici.
> Huh.....Je fais des rêves où tout va bien?



What's happening tonight,why is everyone seeing things that never existed or never happened ?
First @Norge Stronk and now you ?


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## randomradio

Indiran Chandiran said:


> Could you be kind enough to elaborate ? Perhaps , venture a qualitative estimate of their air forces circa 2025 - 2030 ?



Even though the Chinese have more numbers, we are qualitatively ahead by a significant margin. For example, they are only now getting ESA radars while we have been operating them for over 15 years.

Our procurement of Rafales will give us the same advantage we had in 2002 with the MKIs. A better aircraft than any of our adversaries's. When they start fielding AESA radars in numbers along with other types of 5th gen avionics, we will have more advanced and mature technologies on the Rafale.

And that advantage will only get better with the Super 30 upgrade and the FGFA.

Plus, the geography is in our advantage because we can take off with full loads, the Chinese can't.

And there's no point comparing the PAF with the IAF. Even our LCAs will be far more advanced than anything they can field over the next decade. The Israelis will develop a digital radar for the LCA Mk1A, the PAF will be lucky to get a decent analog radar for their JF-17s in the meanwhile. They are unable to match up with current gen MKIs today, whereas the upgraded ones will be far beyond their expectations. And with the FGFA we will get a 20+ year lead over them. By 2030, our IN's air wing will be more powerful than the PAF.

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## Norge Stronk

Agent_47 said:


> That being said, dedicated electronic attack platforms will be a force multiplier like E/A-18G. MKI would be a nice candidate for the modifications.



If you're going to do it, do it right. The E/A-18G was the wrong replacement for an aircraft that didn't need one. The MKI or J-XX variants are great multi-role platforms, but they've nothing on a platform like the EA-6B. And if you're going to make a carrier-based electronic support platform, this is the way to go.












Greater range, payload, defensive capabilities and fuel economy versus the E/A-18G... retired in 2015 and they shouldn't have been. Don't make the mistake of making a half-*ssed platform like the J-XX or Growler.

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## randomradio

Norge Stronk said:


> Good call, French Bread. Everything on PDF is overly emotional and put forth by ignorant fools... so what else does someone expect here?
> 
> For instance, talk crap on Norway and. Totally measured response by PDF standards, but kind of emotional and nationalistic. And don't even get me started on the quality of my posts.
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> Also, this damn thing is still going on. Yeah alright, I'll check back in a few months for some progress.
> 
> At least the IN got the anchor out of its pants (apart from its sub procurement).



Sven?

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## Norge Stronk

randomradio said:


> Sven?



Is Swedish not Norwegian.

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## randomradio

Ind4Ever said:


> Compared to current missile ASMP, the ASMPA would offer a greater range (500 to 600 km) and a greater diversity of trajectories, including final penetrations maneuvers at very low altitude. This missile, the successor to the ASMP carried by the Mirage 2000N and Super Etendard Modernized (SEM), is equipped with the new airborne nuclear warhead (TNA) with a power of 300 kilotons. With an estimated range of 500 kilometers at high-altitude, ASMPA is powered by a ramjet, which gives it a higher speed of around Mach 3. Capable of flying very low, it has penetration capacity and increased accuracy compared to its predecessor. This missile is implemented by the Mirage 2000N, Rafale Air and Navy Rafale.
> 
> And this could make our Mirage fleet even more deadlier  . But why only 54 bought by France? These missiles can be used for conventional missions at large scale. Stand alone range 500-600 km with 300 kg war heads at Mach 3



$11M a missile. Too expensive for conventional missions.



Norge Stronk said:


> If you're going to do it, do it right. The E/A-18G was the wrong replacement for an aircraft that didn't need one. The MKI or J-XX variants are great multi-role platforms, but they've nothing on a platform like the EA-6B. And if you're going to make a carrier-based electronic support platform, this is the way to go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greater range, payload, defensive capabilities and fuel economy versus the E/A-18G... retired in 2015 and they shouldn't have been. Don't make the mistake of making a half-*ssed platform like the J-XX or Growler.



@Picdelamirand-oil says these aircraft are obsolete compared to the Rafale.

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## Norge Stronk

randomradio said:


> @Picdelamirand-oil says these aircraft are obsolete compared to the Rafale.



Good for him.

With the way he hawks the Rafale I'm sure everything is obsolete against it in his mind.


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## randomradio

Norge Stronk said:


> Good for him.
> 
> With the way he hawks the Rafale I'm sure everything is obsolete against it in his mind.



Hey, an aircraft that does better than the Prowler and can also dog fight is a winner.

It's worth hawking.

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## PARIKRAMA

Norge Stronk said:


> If you're going to do it, do it right. The E/A-18G was the wrong replacement for an aircraft that didn't need one. The MKI or J-XX variants are great multi-role platforms, but they've nothing on a platform like the EA-6B. And if you're going to make a carrier-based electronic support platform, this is the way to go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greater range, payload, defensive capabilities and fuel economy versus the E/A-18G... retired in 2015 and they shouldn't have been. Don't make the mistake of making a half-*ssed platform like the J-XX or Growler.



See this is why i wanted you back in main account.. you can be selective in choosing what thread to reply or post but then when you post, you always post good.



randomradio said:


> Sven?





Norge Stronk said:


> Is Swedish not Norwegian.



https://defence.pk/members/technogaianist.170351/

NATO supreme commander of Norweigian Viking Fleet. 

The one who made the small nation Palau a nuclear state ... 

When she is in good mood you get cup cakes, pastries, pies and all sweet tasty stuff.. When she is in bad mood, the ban hammer rolls and asterisks in many sentences flows ......

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## Ind4Ever

randomradio said:


> $11M a missile. Too expensive for conventional missions.
> 
> 
> 
> .


 why so much? We make brahmos at 3 million.


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## randomradio

Ind4Ever said:


> why so much? We make brahmos at 3 million.



Too few made + French costs + some extra tech.


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## Norge Stronk

PARIKRAMA said:


> See this is why i wanted you back in main account.. you can be selective in choosing what thread.



Meh, the more I post and the more involved I become the less happy I get with being here. Having myself restricted from certain discussions keeps my blood pressure down and my interest up leading to greater longevity on PDF, or else I just leave after a week due to an ignorance overload.

In any event I'll still be less involved on PDF then I am on AMF. I like the more quiet environment.



PARIKRAMA said:


> you always post good.









PARIKRAMA said:


> When she is in good mood you get cup cakes, pastries, pies and all sweet tasty stuff.. When she is in bad mood, the ban hammer rolls and asterisks in many sentences flows ......



I have no ban hammer here, but I'm still a Viking at my core so you'll have to settle for a pillaging.









randomradio said:


> It's worth hawking.



I'm sure it is when your connected to the industry like he is. Wouldn't trust such a biased source to advise me on how to make a sandwich.

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## Ind4Ever

randomradio said:


> Too few made + French costs + some extra tech.


Even then it's too much I guess.


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## Spectre

Norge Stronk said:


> I'm sure it is when your connected to the industry like he is. Wouldn't trust such a biased source to advise me on how to make a sandwich.



Eh! Hypocrite.. I seen you hawking Norwegian wares so many times specially baked goods.


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## randomradio

Norge Stronk said:


> I'm sure it is when your connected to the industry like he is. Wouldn't trust such a biased source to advise me on how to make a sandwich.



I would never disagree with that. But it starts making sense once you start looking up leaked evaluations of air forces, actual battles and then match that with claims made.

I mean if you are consistently on top in all evaluations over the last 15 years, fly into A2/AD areas with zero EW support etc, it begins making sense.

What's most important to me is the IAF/SFC want to make the Rafale their premier nuke delivery aircraft without ever having flown it. Our NSA has obviously received more information than just the recipe of a sandwich to make that big a decision.

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## Norge Stronk

Spectre said:


> Eh! Hypocrite.. I seen you hawking Norwegian wares so many times specially baked goods.



I don't hawk what I can eat unless I eat too much!! Me like sweets

You're confusing me with @Freyja 

And yes, I hawk Norwegian goods too, but I don't let my playfulness influence my analysis. I'm an engineer, not a saleswomen, so me hawking things is just for fun and people that have read my past posts know that.

...

Did you know that the Harpoon missile is butt? It's true, so buy this Norwegian alternative instead!






But you @Spectre have read enough of my posts to know I wont claim NSM is the world's best AShM without being ironic about it and will give a fair look at anything you ask me to compare it to when analyzing.

I just like to play up the nationalism on PDF to match the overall tone here... I think we had a discussion about this on AMF, didn't we?

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## Indiran Chandiran

randomradio said:


> Even though the Chinese have more numbers, we are qualitatively ahead by a significant margin. For example, they are only now getting ESA radars while we have been operating them for over 15 years.
> 
> Our procurement of Rafales will give us the same advantage we had in 2002 with the MKIs. A better aircraft than any of our adversaries's. When they start fielding AESA radars in numbers along with other types of 5th gen avionics, we will have more advanced and mature technologies on the Rafale.
> 
> And that advantage will only get better with the Super 30 upgrade and the FGFA.
> 
> Plus, the geography is in our advantage because we can take off with full loads, the Chinese can't.
> 
> And there's no point comparing the PAF with the IAF. Even our LCAs will be far more advanced than anything they can field over the next decade. The Israelis will develop a digital radar for the LCA Mk1A, the PAF will be lucky to get a decent analog radar for their JF-17s in the meanwhile. They are unable to match up with current gen MKIs today, whereas the upgraded ones will be far beyond their expectations. And with the FGFA we will get a 20+ year lead over them. By 2030, our IN's air wing will be more powerful than the PAF.




Let me play devil's advocate .We still don't know anything about their 5 gen aircraft.I don't expect it to be as good as the Chinese claim it's going to be , on par with what the US or Ru have or will come up with respectively , but it won't be as bad as we wish it to be as well.

The sheer nos by themselves could be overwhelming in the most critical period between 2017-27 ( can be stretched to between 2017-30) coz that's when the shortage of aircraft will be the highest ( paradox) & will hit home.

Coming to Pakistan , how long will the F - 16 continue to be in active service ?


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## Spectre

Norge Stronk said:


> I don't hawk what I eat unless I eat too much!!
> 
> You're confusing me with @Freyja
> 
> And yes, I hawk Norwegian goods too, but I don't let my playfulness influence my analysis. I'm an engineer, not a saleswomen, so me hawking things is just for fun and people that have read my past posts know that.
> 
> ...
> 
> Did you know that the Harpoon missile is butt? It's true, so buy this Norwegian alternative instead!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But you @Spectre have read enough of my posts to know I wont claim NSM is the world's best AShM without being ironic about it and will give a fair look at anything you ask me to compare it to when analyzing.
> 
> I just like to play up the nationalism on PDF to match the overall tone here... I think we had a discussion about this on AMF, didn't we?



I was just pulling your leg.. Though it is indeed sad that you don't pimp @Freyja's pastries. Drum up some business girl.

As for mil hardware, you can hand me a good ol axe and convince me that it is better than a M-82 that's how gullible I am or good people are out here. In the end it comes down to my daddy strongest.. So you French, Brits, Americans, Chinese, Russians all hyping up their goods. Not that anyone here is actually buying anything or has a say in anything.

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## randomradio

Indiran Chandiran said:


> Let me play devil's advocate .We still don't know anything about their 5 gen aircraft.I don't expect it to be as good as the Chinese claim it's going to be , on par with what the US or Ru have or will come up with respectively , but it won't be as bad as we wish it to be as well.



The J-20 will mature around the same time as the FGFA will. So it's pretty far away. Of course it's too early to say if it will be as good. But they way the Chinese are progressing, it should be on par.

http://rostec.ru/en/research/tecnology/4517645



> The sheer nos by themselves could be overwhelming in the most critical period between 2017-27 ( can be stretched to between 2017-30) coz that's when the shortage of aircraft will be the highest ( paradox) & will hit home.



Our lowest numbers will be between 2018 and 2022. After 2022, we will be in a better position because we will be inducting dozens of aircraft a year.

If the LSA works out, then we will have a surplus.



> Coming to Pakistan , how long will the F - 16 continue to be in active service ?



Probably 2030 for the As and Bs and 2050 for the Cs and Ds.

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## nang2

randomradio said:


> The J-20 will mature around the same time as the FGFA will. So it's pretty far away. Of course it's too early to say if it will be as good. But they way the Chinese are progressing, it should be on par.


I am simply amazed at your ease of giving estimation on some subject of which you have very little information.


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## Norge Stronk

-xXx- said:


> And people here work their a$$es off to get a title by portraying what they are actually not.



A truly sad state of affairs. But it's easy to identify and brush off those people for the frauds they are. Anyone remember that Bangladeshi Major guy? I'm the one who exposed his crap for what it was and dumped his "Professional" aspirations down the drain where they belonged.

Those that are knowledgeable will make themselves known without needing to do the whole self-presenting new members do when trying to gain the "Pro" title by claiming to be this, that and everything else. Those with industry work or military experience will willingly share their expertise, experiences or knowledge when they can, and avoid doing so when they know they are out of their element.

And once an undeserving member has the title, if given, they need to maintain a standard they can't because they don't meet it. As they don't meet the unwritten standard put on titled members by PDFs rank and file of being a cut above the rest. It cheapens the title system and we see it treated with scorn and ridicule rather then respect or reverence. People don't chase TTA titles, they mock them.

Hunting a title they don't meet the criteria for only hurt them in the end as it places a great big beacon on their ignorance for the whole forum to see plainly; like a lighthouse through the fog.

While I didn't have an issue maintaining a qualitative approach to posting on PDF, I just didn't care for the title or title system in general, so I'm none to interested in pursuing any special treatment again. Too much hassle and I'd rather not be held to a higher account or level of quality then anyone else when I'm here to mainly post pictures and troll, not provide the same in-depth analysis I once did.



Spectre said:


> Though it is indeed sad that you don't pimp @Freyja's pastries. Drum up some business girl.



I would but the final line of your second paragraph sums up my apathy towards advertising for an audience that doesn't live in Norway, and probably couldn't even locate it on the map.

I do some word of mouth at work and around Oslo (where I work), but little on the internet since @Freyja isn't selling products that are easily deliverable through internet services anyway.

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## randomradio

nang2 said:


> I am simply amazed at your ease of giving estimation on some subject of which you have very little information.



These are not estimations, there is actual information available. Some information has been revealed at the lowest levels, but not ready for print yet.

Even if you compare using available information, the PAK FA is flying with a far more advanced engine than what's on the J-20. The Stage 1's engine is 80% different in build compared to the AL-31F. The J-20's engine is still the same as the one on the J-10. The PAK FA's 117 is said to be lighter than the AL-31F and about 25% more efficient. The J-20 with its main engine is still far away, and it will not be anywhere near the PAK FA's second stage engine which will become available in 2018-19. The second stage engines are said to be 15% more efficient than the 117. That's a lot of catching up to do for China.

With better engines that deliver more electrical power, you can get more out of your avionics.

The very fact that I said the J-20 may mature around the same time as the FGFA gives China the benefit of the doubt, that the Chinese will be able to match the Russians in every way by 2025.

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## A.P. Richelieu

Norge Stronk said:


> If you're going to do it, do it right. The E/A-18G was the wrong replacement for an aircraft that didn't need one. The MKI or J-XX variants are great multi-role platforms, but they've nothing on a platform like the EA-6B. And if you're going to make a carrier-based electronic support platform, this is the way to go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greater range, payload, defensive capabilities and fuel economy versus the E/A-18G... retired in 2015 and they shouldn't have been. Don't make the mistake of making a half-*ssed platform like the J-XX or Growler.



They were old (last production unit 1991) and maintenance cost were booming due to that.

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## halloweene

Norge Stronk said:


> Is Swedish not Norwegian.


Msphere?



Norge Stronk said:


> Good for him.
> 
> With the way he hawks the Rafale I'm sure everything is obsolete against it in his mind.



Cool down, take a min to look at his CV (public). As an engineer, it should "talk" to you.



> With better engines that deliver more electrical power, you can get more out of your avionics.
> 
> Nice to see some people remind this often untoldaspect.
> 
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ssions-thread-2.351407/page-353#ixzz4Km9S6BYj

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## BON PLAN

mike2000 is back said:


> Frero, j'ai eu une notification que tu m'a mentionné? mais je vois rien ici.
> Huh.....Je fais des rêves où tout va bien?


Tu t'es pris une cuite ?



Ind4Ever said:


> Compared to current missile ASMP, the ASMPA would offer a greater range (500 to 600 km) and a greater diversity of trajectories, including final penetrations maneuvers at very low altitude. This missile, the successor to the ASMP carried by the Mirage 2000N and Super Etendard Modernized (SEM), is equipped with the new airborne nuclear warhead (TNA) with a power of 300 kilotons. With an estimated range of 500 kilometers at high-altitude, ASMPA is powered by a ramjet, which gives it a higher speed of around Mach 3. Capable of flying very low, it has penetration capacity and increased accuracy compared to its predecessor. This missile is implemented by the Mirage 2000N, Rafale Air and Navy Rafale.
> 
> And this could make our Mirage fleet even more deadlier  . But why only 54 bought by France? These missiles can be used for conventional missions at large scale. Stand alone range 500-600 km with 300 kg war heads at Mach 3


Only 54 ASMP A were made because it's mainly a weapon of gesticulation. To show your determination (before firing).
A SLBM missile fired by a sub is shown only ... too late. 

In France ASMP is called a pre strategic weapon. 
Imagine a rogue country making war actions against France, we could imagine firing one ASMP A on high altitude, to create an EMP wave, or firing it on a buried nuclear secret research center....
If you use a SLBM, it's another beast..... with 6 to 10 nuclear warheads.

54 is far enough !



Ind4Ever said:


> why so much? We make brahmos at 3 million.


Just an idea :
India may developp a smaller Brahmos so it can be fitted to Rafale.
Put a nuclear warhead on these Brahmos mini, and.... you have your own pre strategic weapon !

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## eldamar

randomradio said:


> The J-20 will mature around the same time as the FGFA will. So it's pretty far away. Of course it's too early to say if it will be as good. But they way the Chinese are progressing, it should be on par.
> 
> http://rostec.ru/en/research/tecnology/4517645
> 
> 
> 
> Our lowest numbers will be between 2018 and 2022. After 2022, we will be in a better position because we will be inducting dozens of aircraft a year.
> 
> If the LSA works out, then we will have a surplus.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably 2030 for the As and Bs and 2050 for the Cs and Ds.



How do u know when the J-20 will 'mature' when as of 2016, she's already in Low Rate Production and the first aircraft has already been handed over to its air force(if being deem satisfactory enough to be inducted to its air force is not considered being 'matured'), while the PMF(FGFA) is still 'somewhere in the pipes'- just as it has been for years.


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## randomradio

halloweene said:


> Cool down, take a min to look at his CV (public). As an engineer, it should "talk" to you.



I sent it to her. But I think she already knows.


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## Taygibay

Norge Stronk said:


> Don't make the mistake of making a half-*ssed platform like the J-XX or Growler.



No mistake, mate! It was a necessity to do away with subsonic ACs.
The concept of network centric battlefield is best served for air tactics
if all units have the ability to work together. Technological advances
allowed that by squeezing the material into a bona fide fighter.
When SHornets attack, Growlers are there wherever that may be and
Prowlers are 180 kliks behind the raid.
I'd agree that variety is the spice of life but for airforces, modern tools
follow a unitary approach. UCAVs are the new near supersonic layer.

The only big problem with the Growler is how much azz one must ki...
to get 'em. That in itself has probably hurt the end of the commercial
career of the Shornet. A Lite version for export would have done it.

But all the money was already being poured down the gullet of the F35
We do force feed geese for foie gras in France but in America, they do
that with their mil programs and the results aren't as tasty. 

Good day to you, Tay.

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## GuardianRED

Alright ppl , I found it... Marketing movie time (very biased to the Americans) .. Have fun watching!





Note : Though Posted online 2015, this video is much older

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## randomradio

GuardianRED said:


> Alright ppl , I found it... Marketing movie time (very biased to the Americans) .. Have fun watching!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note : Though Posted online 2015, this video is much older



I clicked on a random point on the video, to 55:20, and the narrator is talking about the F-35's 'extreme maneuverability'. Lol.

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## GuardianRED

randomradio said:


> I clicked on a random point on the video, to 55:20, and the narrator is talking about the F-35's 'extreme maneuverability'. Lol.


Bro! there is alot more fun stuff there too!


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## randomradio

Norge Stronk said:


> Just curious since it's been pitched to India, realistic or not, how'd you rate the F-16's maneuverability?



It depends on what you are comparing it to. The F-16's maneuverability is kickass compared to what it is meant to replace in the IAF, the venerable Mig-21. However the F-16 did not even achieve minimum maneuverability specs during MMRCA evaluations.

Anyway the US DoD has pitched the F-35 to the IN as part of the carrier cooperation program, direct purchase of 3 squadrons. Lock Mart has been giving presentations for the last 10 years now.

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## nang2

randomradio said:


> These are not estimations, there is actual information available. Some information has been revealed at the lowest levels, but not ready for print yet.
> 
> Even if you compare using available information, the PAK FA is flying with a far more advanced engine than what's on the J-20. The Stage 1's engine is 80% different in build compared to the AL-31F. The J-20's engine is still the same as the one on the J-10. The PAK FA's 117 is said to be lighter than the AL-31F and about 25% more efficient. The J-20 with its main engine is still far away, and it will not be anywhere near the PAK FA's second stage engine which will become available in 2018-19. The second stage engines are said to be 15% more efficient than the 117. That's a lot of catching up to do for China.
> 
> With better engines that deliver more electrical power, you can get more out of your avionics.
> 
> The very fact that I said the J-20 may mature around the same time as the FGFA gives China the benefit of the doubt, that the Chinese will be able to match the Russians in every way by 2025.


You simply equate the engine with the plane. Such a naive simplicity is what amazes me.


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## randomradio

nang2 said:


> You simply equate the engine with the plane. Such a naive simplicity is what amazes me.



The engine is what makes the plane. If you manufacture the J-20 with the AL-31FN, it will just be a low observable Flanker. It won't be fully stealthy, it won't supercruise efficiently, its avionics will be restricted to what the Flanker carries, the directed energy weapons will have to be powered from external sources etc. You can find out many things about the jet simply based on the engine it's on.

J-20 Stage 1 - AL-31FN... generic export version.

Su-30MKI - AL-31FP... more advanced than the AL-31F/FN.
Su-35 - AL-41F1S, 117S, export grade... modified AL-31F.
PAK FA Stage 1 - AL-41F, 117, non-export grade, 5th gen engine... heavily modified from the AL-31F.
PAK FA Stage 2 - Type 30 - 5th gen engine + variable cycle, very high TWR(greater than 12), significantly increased electricity generation for directed energy weapons and other uses and so on. 2018-19.

J-20 definitive version(?) Stage 2 - WS-15(?). If it is as capable as the Type 30 and flies around the same time as the PAK FA Stage 2, then it will mature around the same time as the FGFA will. So figure out when the WS-15 become operationally available, then we can talk about the J-20. It has to lose the old Russian export grade engines first. You can't put the F-16's engine on the F-22 and call the F-22 5th gen.

The engine is the most effective way to surmise how capable the jet is. So it is nowhere as simplistic as you assume it to be.

And my earlier post was in favour of the Chinese, so I don't know what's your problem.

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## Stephen Cohen

@randomradio 

What about the GAP between Russian And Chinese AVIONICS


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## randomradio

Norge Stronk said:


> No it doesn't since that's not what I was asking for. An platform's performance isn't dependent on its predecessor or successor's kinematics.
> 
> Extremely Maneuverable
> Above Average Maneuverability
> Maneuverable
> Below Average Maneuverability
> Extremely Below Average Maneuverability
> 
> Where on this scale does the F-16 fit?



Those are not data points, they are completely subjective.

If you compare it to the best available, say the F-22, the F-16 is not even remotely close to extremely maneuverable. Can the F-16 perform 100deg AoA or even 70? Can the F-16 match or cross 30 deg ITR? Can the F-16 pull 11G? The F-16 is not extremely maneuverable compared to current standards.

The Rafale, Typhoon, F-22 and Su-30/35 are extremely maneuverable, not the F-16.

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## randomradio

Stephen Cohen said:


> @randomradio
> 
> What about the GAP between Russian And Chinese AVIONICS



Avionics are much easier to develop. They will catch up or even surpass the Russians, but what they can put on the J-20 depends a lot on the engine.



Norge Stronk said:


> Stop dancing and just answer like I wanted you to. F*ck almighty, what's wrong with you? It's not that hard, people here do this all the time.
> 
> How do you rate the F-16's performance based on a simple scale like that.



Okay. Maneuverable.


----------



## Stephen Cohen

randomradio said:


> Avionics are much easier to develop. They will catch up or even surpass the Russians, but what they can put on the J-20 depends a lot on the engine.



Some days ago ; I read here on PDF that SD 10 is better than Russian Air to Air Missiles
Obviously these claims were made by a Pakistani member

What is your take on this


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## Ankit Kumar 002

CCS meeting..... fingers crossed.

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## Taygibay

Steven Tilbrook (@TilbrookSteven) https://twitter.com/TilbrookSteven/









​ On-topic pic, Tay.

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## randomradio

Stephen Cohen said:


> Some days ago ; I read here on PDF that SD 10 is better than Russian Air to Air Missiles
> Obviously these claims were made by a Pakistani member
> 
> What is your take on this



It's obviously false. The Chinese make export grade weapons with export grade performance. They are like the Soviets, they make one for themselves and make a monkey model for export. The Chinese main weapon is the PL-12.

And there are many air to air weapons available and being developed for the PAK FA. For example, the K-77M has a range of 220Km, carries GaN AESA seekers and has dual pulse motors. It's supposed to enter production this year. Even the PL-12 doesn't compare, it's more in the R-VV SD class. And the K-77M is a stop gap before the PAK FA's main medium range weapon is developed.

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## randomradio

Stephen Cohen said:


> That is why I asked you because I know your knowledge
> 
> I would ALWAYS Trust an Indian Member over a Pakistani



The best Pak options are the West even today. That's why they are more interested in Turkey's TFX than the J-31, which is another export grade monkey model.

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## Norge Stronk

Stephen Cohen said:


> J 31 would be very complicated for Chengdu
> 
> Because they are making J 20 which has different specifications than J 31
> because of AL 31



Isn't the J-31 a product of Shenyang not Chengdu?


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## Norge Stronk

Stephen Cohen said:


> They are all Brothers and Sisters ; No real difference



So are Boeing and Lockheed... big difference.


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## Stephen Cohen

Norge Stronk said:


> So are Boeing and Lockheed... big difference.



American companies are Private companies 

Whereas Chinese Military Industrial Complex is directly governed by the Chinese Govt 

There might be smaller companies for Administrative convenience and 
creating a competitive environment 

But they work in a seamless manner 

Like in India DRDO ; HAL ; OFB are all Government Organistions


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## randomradio

Norge Stronk said:


> So are Boeing and Lockheed... big difference.



Both Shenyang and Chengdu are subsidiaries under the AVIC, similar to Russia's UAC where Sukhoi and Mig are under a larger umbrella organization. Of course, both SAC and CAC compete for contracts, but it's not at the same level as Boeing and Lock Mart.

The AVIC and UAC were set up to prevent wastage of resources due to duplicating work or reinventing the wheel. So technology is shared between the subsidiaries, unlike in the American companies.


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## Norge Stronk

Stephen Cohen said:


> American companies are Private companies
> 
> Whereas Chinese Military Industrial Complex is directly governed by the Chinese Govt



And US companies aren't guided or governed by the US military? In the US they call this R&D expenditure rather then state control. You still have programs initiated by the US military, funded partially by them and overseen by the US military, but also by the individual companies and the work governed by a mix of both government and private ownership.

Or lets look at it like this. Lockheed is a well known company right? Surely you know the name. You're also likely to know the name of Sikorsky. Maybe you aren't aware that Sikorsky is a Lockheed subsidiary, an with its own independence designs and oversight, but a part of Lockheed.







Chinese companies function as their Soviet counterparts do. State controlled, but given independence over their resources and design. They are individual design companies. Central control.

While both Chengdu and Shenyang are subsidiaries of AVIC, they are independent design bureaus with their own resources, control and projects. Ultimately they report to AVIC, but this does not mean they aren't responsible for their own designs.

Relating this to Lockheed and Boeing, both are independent companies occasionally acting on request by the US military but without formal contracts. Don't think that precludes them from sharing proprietary info with one another, as programs like this or their joint venture the ULA and a joint Boeing-Lockheed submission to the tender that birthed the B-21 show.






Shenyang and Chengdu are independent design bureaus, both with their own designs and projects and funding. Do they collaborate? I doubt you really know. But mistaking the two for one another reflects rather poorly.



randomradio said:


> .



Don't you have something else to do other then bother me? Go do it.

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## Agent_47

randomradio said:


> GaN AESA seekers


Let them first make a good GaA radar then a GaN and then a miniaturized seeker. Japanese are the only one who have actually made a AESA seeker for their AAM-4 BVR missile. MBDA is partnering with them to bring in this tech to meteor missile.


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## randomradio

Agent_47 said:


> Let them first make a good GaA radar then a GaN and then a miniaturized seeker. Japanese are the only one who have actually made a AESA seeker for their AAM-4 BVR missile. MBDA is partnering with them to bring in this tech to meteor missile.








According to two year old news, something similar should be in production now.

Anyway, as far as the Russians are concerned, GaN is passe. The production Stage 1 PAK FA will come with a fully digital GaN suite, for everything, weapons, communications, radar etc. The Stage 2 will come with photonics, that's at a whole 'nother level.


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## John Reese

@PARIKRAMA Any guesses on CCS happening Tomorrow

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## Stephen Cohen

John Reese said:


> @PARIKRAMA Any guesses on CCS happening Tomorrow




*PM Modi-led committee all set to approve 36 Rafale fighter deal today*

*Cabinet Committee on Security will approve 36 Rafale fighter deal on Wednesday. *

*http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/36-rafale-fighter-deal-narendra-modi-ccs/1/769319.html*

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## randomradio

Agent_47 said:


> PAKFA is already using all GaN ?! They have solved thermal issues to make it miniature !? can you give me some sources.
> 
> I don't think they will keep it a secret if its in production. Its quite a good achievement and they would be pitching it for MKI missile upgrade .



They have kept a lot of it secret. NPF Mikran set up production facilities 1-2 years ago. The new radar for the Mig-35 is also fully digital based on GaN. GaN doesn't have thermal issues.

Anyway-
https://www.rt.com/news/t50-missile-advanced-guidance-643/

https://www.rt.com/news/321738-russian-stealth-pak-fa/


> Russia’s PAK FA fifth-generation fighter jet goes “100 percent digital,” defense industry officials say. The jet will get “smart covering” that enables a pilot to have an all-round combat picture and maneuver with a maximum degree of efficiency.
> 
> _“The PAK-FA fighter jet is not simply a fifth-generation aircraft as brand new ideas were installed. In other words, it is a *100-percent digital aircraft *which not only delivers information at the pilot’s request, but also ensures full-fledged situation awareness,”_ Nasenkov said.



PAK FA is ready for production with these technologies.

Otoh, Northrop recently won the contract to develop digital radars.
https://globenewswire.com/news-rele...tronically-Scanned-Array-AESA-Technology.html

Meaning, the F-22 and F-35 are still years away from these technologies.

Anyway, this is irrelevant to India because we have chosen optical radars, that's a step ahead. So no GaN for us, that will be obsolete too, in about 3-5 years. So this radar, when ready, won't just detect the F-22 and the F-35, but also detect a pimple on the pilot's face from hundreds of kilometres away.

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## John Reese

Stephen Cohen said:


> *PM Modi-led committee all set to approve 36 Rafale fighter deal today*
> 
> *Cabinet Committee on Security will approve 36 Rafale fighter deal on Wednesday. *
> 
> *http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/36-rafale-fighter-deal-narendra-modi-ccs/1/769319.html*


Well I Know this But @PARIKRAMA always have best intake


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## mansoor raja

What waste to buy only 36 rafale jets.


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## John Reese

mansoor raja said:


> What waste to buy only 36 rafale jets.


36+18 all will be delivered to us by 2020

India navy Will buy Rafale M for its Aircraft carrier Separately

Rafale comes with Scalp and Meteor and other Weapon Packages


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## mansoor raja

John Reese said:


> 36+18 all will be delivered to us by 2020
> 
> India navy Will buy Rafale M for its Aircraft carrier Separately
> 
> Rafale comes with Scalp and Meteor and other Weapon Packages



By then we will have more jf17 and J31


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## John Reese

mansoor raja said:


> By then we will have more jf17 and J31


JF-17 is Lightweight Fighter My dear
Seriously India Have over 300+ Sukhoi MKI alone I am not even counting Mig-29 or M2K

J-31 is will not come before 2025 Its confirmed by Mods here Engines and radars are Not Ready yet

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## nang2

Again and again, I misread PAK FA as some new fighter jet for Pakistan.


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## Akasa

Norge Stronk said:


> ... joint venture the ULA...



Ah, yes, a throwback to the days when Boeing and Lockheed were at each other's throats over the EELV tender, only to have the US Justice Department force the two to shake hands following Boeing's theft scandal and form, voila, the ULA.


----------



## eldamar

randomradio said:


> The engine is what makes the plane. If you manufacture the J-20 with the AL-31FN, it will just be a low observable Flanker. It won't be fully stealthy, it won't supercruise efficiently, its avionics will be restricted to what the Flanker carries, the directed energy weapons will have to be powered from external sources etc. You can find out many things about the jet simply based on the engine it's on.
> 
> J-20 Stage 1 - AL-31FN... generic export version.
> 
> Su-30MKI - AL-31FP... more advanced than the AL-31F/FN.
> Su-35 - AL-41F1S, 117S, export grade... modified AL-31F.
> PAK FA Stage 1 - AL-41F, 117, non-export grade, 5th gen engine... heavily modified from the AL-31F.
> PAK FA Stage 2 - Type 30 - 5th gen engine + variable cycle, very high TWR(greater than 12), significantly increased electricity generation for directed energy weapons and other uses and so on. 2018-19.
> 
> J-20 definitive version(?) Stage 2 - WS-15(?). If it is as capable as the Type 30 and flies around the same time as the PAK FA Stage 2, then it will mature around the same time as the FGFA will. So figure out when the WS-15 become operationally available, then we can talk about the J-20. It has to lose the old Russian export grade engines first. You can't put the F-16's engine on the F-22 and call the F-22 5th gen.
> 
> The engine is the most effective way to surmise how capable the jet is. So it is nowhere as simplistic as you assume it to be.
> 
> And my earlier post was in favour of the Chinese, so I don't know what's your problem.



just 1 simple question:

Then is Pak-FA being produced yet?



John Reese said:


> JF-17 is Lightweight Fighter My dear
> Seriously India Have over 300+ Sukhoi MKI alone I am not even counting Mig-29 or M2K
> 
> J-31 is will not come before 2025 Its confirmed by Mods here Engines and radars are Not Ready yet



So is Tejas a lightweight fighter(Su30 is a mediumweight fighter). by https://www.google.com.sg/webhp?ie=UTF-8&rct=j#q=cherrypick the JF-17 vs the Su30, u r comparing apples with oranges? No? Im atonished y u didnt compare the F-16(pakistan) vs the Su30(india) instead. That's the same as picking a fight with a smaller opponent instead of the big 1.

How do u know that J-31 will not come b4 2025 when not 1, but 2 prototypes have already been constructed.

has any PAK-FA aka FGFA aka PMF prototypes been constructed? or at least even a technology demonstrator? No?



Stephen Cohen said:


> American companies are Private companies
> 
> Whereas Chinese Military Industrial Complex is directly governed by the Chinese Govt
> 
> There might be smaller companies for Administrative convenience and
> creating a competitive environment
> 
> But they work in a seamless manner
> 
> Like in India DRDO ; HAL ; OFB are all Government Organistions



Atually, what's your end statement(the point u r trying to bring)?

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## randomradio

eldarlmari said:


> just 1 simple question:
> 
> Then is Pak-FA being produced yet?



A state contract will be signed in a few months. First delivery expected in 2018.


----------



## eldamar

randomradio said:


> It's obviously false. The Chinese make export grade weapons with export grade performance. They are like the Soviets, they make one for themselves and make a monkey model for export. The Chinese main weapon is the PL-12.
> 
> And there are many air to air weapons available and being developed for the PAK FA. For example, the K-77M has a range of 220Km, carries GaN AESA seekers and has dual pulse motors. It's supposed to enter production this year. Even the PL-12 doesn't compare, it's more in the R-VV SD class. And the K-77M is a stop gap before the PAK FA's main medium range weapon is developed.



isnt what u said the norm instead of being the exception? No country would share their full technology with another. The 1 that is being shared would always be a watered-down version. Same goes for the Pak-FA aka FGFA aka PMF. It's naive to think that the Russians will share 'full' ToT with India on it.



randomradio said:


> A state contract will be signed in a few months. First delivery expected in 2018.



then what do u mean by:

_PAK FA is ready for production with these technologies.

Otoh, Northrop recently won the contract to develop digital radars.
https://globenewswire.com/news-rele...tronically-Scanned-Array-AESA-Technology.html

Meaning, the F-22 and F-35 are still years away from these technologies.

Anyway, this is irrelevant to India because we have chosen optical radars, that's a step ahead. So no GaN for us, that will be obsolete too, in about 3-5 years. So this radar, when ready, won't just detect the F-22 and the F-35, but also detect a pimple on the pilot's face from hundreds of kilometres away.



How is the Pak-Fa ready for production when there isnt even a contract being signed.
_
Then you talk about the GaN radars becoming obsolete just because u think the PAK-FA isnt gonna use it(thereby implying that the other planes in oepration or production using GaN technology are thus becoming obsolete).

Im confused.

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## nang2

randomradio said:


> A state contract will be signed in a few months. First delivery expected in 2018.


One thing I have learned after joining this forum is that any sentences with future or future perfect tense, if from Indian sources, should be taken in with decent mount of salt.


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## randomradio

eldarlmari said:


> isnt what u said the norm instead of being the exception? No country would share their full technology with another. The 1 that is being shared would always be a watered-down version. Same goes for the Pak-FA aka FGFA aka PMF. It's naive to think that the Russians will share 'full' ToT with India on it.



We are not sure how much tech will be transferred. Right now, this is what they are saying.
http://indiandefencenewz.in/for-onl...ated-technology-of-a-5th-gen-stealth-fighter/


> “From a preliminary document that was barely two dozen pages, we have agreed on a 650 page detailed plan that specifies exactly what all will be shared,” an unidentified Indian defense official told The Economic Times.



The aircraft itself will undergo many advancements, similar to the Brahmos which has progressed from a 3T/mach 3.2 missile to a 1.5T/mach 3.5 missile to a mach 5.5 missile to a mach 9 missile. So the PAK FA is a pretty big project.



> then what do u mean by:
> 
> _PAK FA is ready for production with these technologies.
> 
> Otoh, Northrop recently won the contract to develop digital radars.
> https://globenewswire.com/news-rele...tronically-Scanned-Array-AESA-Technology.html
> 
> Meaning, the F-22 and F-35 are still years away from these technologies.
> 
> Anyway, this is irrelevant to India because we have chosen optical radars, that's a step ahead. So no GaN for us, that will be obsolete too, in about 3-5 years. So this radar, when ready, won't just detect the F-22 and the F-35, but also detect a pimple on the pilot's face from hundreds of kilometres away.
> 
> 
> 
> How is the Pak-Fa ready for production when there isnt even a contract being signed._


_
_
It's a bit complex to explain because development of the PAK FA is still far from complete. For example, the first 6 prototypes are of the Stage 1, the next 5 are Stage 2. So development will continue as is, while Stage 1 LRIP will begin next year.

If you think about it, the aircraft will 'start' production in 2017 officially and be 'delivered' in 2018. There's no way any aircraft can be manufactured from the ground up in just 1 year. So it is possibly referring to 'assembly will start in 2017' which means production started a long time ago.

But we are talking about electronics, and electronics have their own manufacturing cycle which is much faster.



> Then you talk about the GaN radars becoming obsolete just because u think the PAK-FA isnt gonna use it(thereby implying that the other planes in oepration or production using GaN technology are thus becoming obsolete).
> 
> Im confused.



Yeah, pretty much it. You can't go up against optical hardware with digital hardware, let alone analogue hardware on the F-22 and the F-35. For example, the analogue AESA or even the digital AESA works only up to a few GHz, like in the X band or the L band, whereas the optical radar being made works in the RF spectrum from 1Hz all the way to 100GHz.



nang2 said:


> One thing I have learned after joining this forum is that any sentences with future or future perfect tense, if from Indian sources, should be taken in with decent mount of salt.



It's not from Indian sources.


----------



## eldamar

randomradio said:


> We are not sure how much tech will be transferred. Right now, this is what they are saying.
> http://indiandefencenewz.in/for-onl...ated-technology-of-a-5th-gen-stealth-fighter/
> 
> 
> The aircraft itself will undergo many advancements, similar to the Brahmos which has progressed from a 3T/mach 3.2 missile to a 1.5T/mach 3.5 missile to a mach 5.5 missile to a mach 9 missile. So the PAK FA is a pretty big project.
> 
> _
> _
> It's a bit complex to explain because development of the PAK FA is still far from complete. For example, the first 6 prototypes are of the Stage 1, the next 5 are Stage 2. So development will continue as is, while Stage 1 LRIP will begin next year.
> 
> If you think about it, the aircraft will 'start' production in 2017 officially and be 'delivered' in 2018. There's no way any aircraft can be manufactured from the ground up in just 1 year. So it is possibly referring to 'assembly will start in 2017' which means production started a long time ago.
> 
> But we are talking about electronics, and electronics have their own manufacturing cycle which is much faster.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, pretty much it. You can't go up against optical hardware with digital hardware, let alone analogue hardware on the F-22 and the F-35. For example, the analogue AESA or even the digital AESA works only up to a few GHz, like in the X band or the L band, whereas the optical radar being made works in the RF spectrum from 1Hz all the way to 100GHz.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not from Indian sources.



1)U can predict when the planes will enter LRIP when no contracts has even been signed yet. I assume u have pretty good insider information.

2)i dun get it. gaN technology is a rather recent phenomenon for AeSA radars and fighter jets ard the world are all walking towards the direction of upgrading to GaN radars- yet here u r claiming that it's going to be obsolete.


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## Ankit Kumar 002

mansoor raja said:


> What waste to buy only 36 rafale jets.



1. 36 Is off the shelf purchase, which is to be followed by a way bigger second order for an Indian Line. 

2. How is the 36, a " WASTE " ? 



mansoor raja said:


> By then we will have more jf17 and J31



Good for you.


----------



## randomradio

eldarlmari said:


> 1)U can predict when the planes will enter LRIP when no contracts has even been signed yet. I assume u have pretty good insider information.



It's a combination of insider info and open source. LRIP delivery is slated for 2018.



> 2)i dun get it. gaN technology is a rather recent phenomenon for AeSA radars and fighter jets ard the world are all walking towards the direction of upgrading to GaN radars- yet here u r claiming that it's going to be obsolete.



GaN will be relevant, but also obsolete depending on when photonics tech will come out and how long it will take. Because, let's face it, photonics will be expensive when it comes out first. The digital radar is ready for production in various countries, but the photonics radar isn't. The new radar will be available in Russia only after 2018.

So we will have to see how the program progresses. We may start off with the digital radar with GaN first, and then use the photonics radar on the twin seat PAK FA or a modernized PAK FA. Or jump straight away to the photonics radar if testing goes without flaws. This decision can be made only after 2018, that's at the end of the 4.5 year development period for this radar.

https://in.rbth.com/economics/defence/2016/01/20/new-radar-system-for-pak-fa-fighter_560689

The actual development cycle of the PAK FA Stage 2 and FGFA go right up to 2023, IOC of the engine is expected only in 2025. So there is enough time to make a decision. In the meantime, there is a plan to manufacture a few squadrons of the older PAK FA also, right after the LRIP is done.

Putin's visiting India in October for the BRICS summit followed by the India-Russia summit. Things should start moving then. So we are looking forward to the Rafale deal in the next few days and the FGFA deal after October 15th.


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## PARIKRAMA

Please stick to Rafales here.

FGFA to here: https://defence.pk/threads/sukhoi-pak-fa-fgfa-updates-news-discussions.118201/

All F16/F18/F35/Gripen here: https://defence.pk/threads/make-in-...ents-updates-f16-f18-gripen-any-other.448850/

Other General IAF queries here: https://defence.pk/threads/indian-air-force-news-discussions.30328/

Regards,

+++

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## bipi@342

PARIKRAMA said:


> Please stick to Rafales here.
> 
> FGFA to here: https://defence.pk/threads/sukhoi-pak-fa-fgfa-updates-news-discussions.118201/
> 
> All F16/F18/F35/Gripen here: https://defence.pk/threads/make-in-...ents-updates-f16-f18-gripen-any-other.448850/
> 
> Other General IAF queries here: https://defence.pk/threads/indian-air-force-news-discussions.30328/
> 
> Regards,
> 
> +++


 any updates from CCS meeting

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## SUDIP

it's cleared may be, but not sure, found only a piece of news.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-to-announcing-8-billion-euro-rafale-jet-deal

"*The Cabinet Committee on Security, which includes the prime minister, defense, foreign and finance ministers, has cleared the deal worth 8 billion euros ($8.9 billion) for Rafale fighter jets, people with knowledge of the matter said. The deal is likely to be signed later this week in New Delhi by India’s Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian, they said, asking not to be identified as the information isn’t public."*

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## Hellfire

randomradio said:


> And that advantage will only get better with the Super 30 upgrade and the FGFA.
> Plus, the geography is in our advantage because we can take off with full loads, the Chinese can't.




Eh, why not? Can you explain please?


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## VivasvatManu

hellfire said:


> Eh, why not? Can you explain please?



Lower average altitude of IAF bases vs the average altitude of Chinese bases in Tibet. 

Rarefied air at greater heights makes it difficult to take off with full load.

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## Hellfire

VivasvatManu said:


> Lower average altitude of IAF bases vs the average altitude of Chinese bases in Tibet.
> 
> Rarefied air at greater heights makes it difficult to take off with full load.




Makes sense, but then the engines are the reason in u/m case.

IL-76 MDI vs Boeing 737-700 at THOISE. Former 8 with crew of 5 +1 at 22'C the latter 110 with load and crew 06.

So the logic seems improbable as all are within ceiling at 22'C.

Compensation comes with a longer runway, not possible at THOISE. Climb rate will be low with a full load, granted.

Again my query holds to the quoted member, what is the difference? I need clarification on that.


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## nang2

VivasvatManu said:


> Lower average altitude of IAF bases vs the average altitude of Chinese bases in Tibet.
> 
> Rarefied air at greater heights makes it difficult to take off with full load.


you just need longer takeoff run to get faster speed for enough lift.



randomradio said:


> It's not from Indian sources.


I meant your sentences.


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## A_Poster

hellfire said:


> Eh, why not? Can you explain please?




Jagged topography on Indian side means that Indian aircrafts could hide behind mountain ranges and be invisible even to AWACS until they pop up on Chinese side,while Chinese could not as they are on a flat plateau. This too seem to be a valid advantage, apart from high altitude limiting payload of Chinese aircrafts.


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## Hellfire

A_Poster said:


> ....apart from high altitude limiting payload of Chinese aircrafts.



Explain this portion. 

Rest all is irrelevant and inconsequential in todays world.

An AWACS over TAR will pick you up in a second in North Sikkim the moment you cross Yumthang.

You or @randomradio can please explain this logic of lesser payload.


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## Taygibay

Gems :​


randomradio said:


> So no GaN for us, that will be obsolete too, in about 3-5 years.




LOL
Don't tell anyone or Raytheon's market shares would plunge ...
they're selling it as a new technology & so are SAAB & Thales.
http://www.bidnessetc.com/65419-raytheon-company-introduces-patriot-radar-aesa-upgrade/



randomradio said:


> _Ed. About the PAK-FA :_ First delivery expected in 2018.




I'll bet on that. Is a hundred bucks OK? More?



randomradio said:


> So we are looking forward to the Rafale deal in the next few days and the FGFA deal after October 15th.




What year?


Relax Max, you're getting your ideas tangled in your enthusiasm again.
Good day anyway, Tay.


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## VivasvatManu

hellfire said:


> Makes sense, but then the engines are the reason in u/m case.
> 
> IL-76 MDI vs Boeing 737-700 at THOISE. Former 8 with crew of 5 +1 at 22'C the latter 110 with load and crew 06.
> 
> So the logic seems improbable as all are within ceiling at 22'C.
> 
> Compensation comes with a longer runway, not possible at THOISE. Climb rate will be low with a full load, granted.
> 
> Again my query holds to the quoted member, what is the difference? I need clarification on that.



He is talking about fighter aircraft and I do not think the Su 30 engines are rated to operate efficiently at rarefied atmosphere. 

1. At higher altitude the engine thrust is lower, this results in lower velocity







2. The Air density is lower, this results in lower lift

3. The Angle of Attack required might be higher due to presence of Mountain ranges at close proximity to airfield. With risk of stall. 

Since the Lift is directly proportional to the Velocity and Air density, it will probably affect the load capacity of the Aircraft. I think the aircraft load is rated for sea level.

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## Hellfire

@VivasvatManu 

I agree with what you have posted. Let the member who I quoted specify what was meant, it will not be fair for me to assume.

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## VivasvatManu

nang2 said:


> you just need longer takeoff run to get faster speed for enough lift.



I am guessing that the presence of mountains around the airfield will affect the length of the airfield. Not to mention the nature of the terrain itself.


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## ashok321

*PM Modi-led committee all set to approve 36 Rafale fighter deal today*

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/36-rafale-fighter-deal-narendra-modi-ccs/1/769319.html

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## nang2

VivasvatManu said:


> I am guessing that the presence of mountains around the airfield will affect the length of the airfield. Not to mention the nature of the terrain itself.


airfield doesn't need a runway that long.


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## Taygibay

VivasvatManu said:


> 1. At higher altitude the engine thrust is lower, this results in lower velocity
> ...
> 2. The Air density is lower, this results in lower lift



Small correction, you need to conflate one and two in this case.
Air density is lower also means that the air resistance is lower so
less drag occurs so that less thrust is required to maintain speed.
And unless maneuvering hard, lift is not needed as much either.

The 1.8 Mach of most fighters is around 40k feet or 12k meters.

The graph is right though. Tay.

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## VivasvatManu

nang2 said:


> airfield doesn't need a runway that long.



Not true. e.g. Tibet airport has been rated as one of the most dangerous airports in the world.



Taygibay said:


> Small correction, you need to conflate one and two in this case.
> Air density is lower also means that the air resistance is lower so
> less drag occurs so that less thrust is required to maintain speed.
> And unless maneuvering hard, lift is not needed as much either.
> 
> The 1.8 Mach of most fighters is around 40k feet or 12k meters.
> 
> The graph is right though. Tay.



Yes I am aware of that but I do not think the reduction in drag compensates for the engine thrust. Especially since these engines are not designed for such high altitude. 

I have also not mentioned the difficulty in maintaining such high value aircraft's in Tibet and the impact of such isolated air fields on the pilots psyche. Depression would be a real danger. 

Also manoeuvring might be required due to the mountain ranges that surround the airfield.

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## BON PLAN

*India Said Close to Announcing 8-Billion-Euro Rafale Jet Deal*
*http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-to-announcing-8-billion-euro-rafale-jet-deal*

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## The Eagle

Stephen Cohen said:


> I would ALWAYS Trust an Indian Member over a Pakistani



Not a good one, not at all.... Quite offensive though.



randomradio said:


> The best Pak options are the West even today. That's why they are more interested in Turkey's TFX than the J-31, which is another export grade monkey model.



So whatever the rivals are going to have, is called a monkey model etc. isn't that too much of undermining. I am sure, even IAF professionals wouldn't call for it like this.

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## Taygibay

Yes, if the engines are soft rated ( their values tested by stages of use ).
On a fighter, this shouldn't be the case. Ratings are real use established.
And again, the altitude is less than 12 000 m.

But you are right that it requires mentally strong people or a high rotation rate.
Lukla is the name of the most difficult airfield.

Good day, Tay.

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## Hellfire

nang2 said:


> airfield doesn't need a runway that long.



In high altitude you need longer. TAR has average 4000 m length airfields.

The more practical and alternate appreciation is that they can indeed take off with maximal load for a strike. There is no limitation.

Leh did not have the problem for Su-30 if I recall correctly. Even if they have to carry less fuel, a pre-positioned refueller takes care of it. Hence my looking for a clarification because this is a decade and a half back thought process.

Heck. Mi-17V5 carried 24 with 20 kg load per individual at 19000 ft without a bother over the crew of 4.



BON PLAN said:


> *India Said Close to Announcing 8-Billion-Euro Rafale Jet Deal
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-to-announcing-8-billion-euro-rafale-jet-deal*



Thanks for the tickle. This gave a moment of smile ..... cry wolf over

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## The Eagle

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Sorry all.
> Going off topic but ...
> 
> Condemnation ? What does it mean ?
> 
> I propose India makes a law to only buy weapons from those who make a law in their nation to not to sell a single bullet to our neighbour.
> 
> This will do more in forcing them to reduce anti India terrorists support.
> 
> When a nation like USA , or Germany or France first call restraint from India ( USA went as far as to say it would condemn Indian action in Self Defence ) and then condemn terrorism without naming the terrorist supporters , it means " ZERO ".
> 
> I say better fcuk off with your condemnation.




Like buy the sympathy and favour through spending in weapons and money but not by doing the right thing in first place. 

There is a saying:

_Business is business and cup of tea is cup of tea._

However, many of nations (if) aren't selling us is without the concerns of India and there are many other factors involved. Don't worry.


----------



## Ankit Kumar 002

A_Poster said:


> Unless ToI is lying, France and Russia have named Pakistan and Pakistan based terror outfits for terrorism in India.



Naming Pakistan and naming LeT/others is two different things. Non of them have named Pakistan.


----------



## The Eagle

hellfire said:


> @all members from France
> 
> I sincerely thank you and your country for the support you have given our country in this time of crisis as we jointly face the threat of terror. Your statement, hard hitting and truly emphasising the support of people of France for India, has further underscored the cherished partnership and friendship between our two countries.
> 
> Thank you once again
> 
> 
> *We condemned on Sunday the terrible attack carried out in Uri yesterday.
> 
> After that of Pathankot earlier this year, this attack reminds us that India, like France, is a victim of terrorism. More than ever before, we remain at the side of our strategic partner, India, for fighting this scourge.
> 
> As underscored by the President of the French Republic during his India visit in January this year, all countries must effectively combat terrorism emanating from their territory or from territories under their control. We call for decisive action to be taken, in accordance with international law, against the terrorist groups targeting India,
> particularly the Lashkar-eTaiba, the Jaish-e-Mohammed, and the Hizb-ul-Mujahideen.
> 
> Nothing can justify terrorism, which must be combatted everywhere with the same determination.*
> 
> http://www.ambafrance-in.org/Terrorist-attack-in-India



Sorry to say that but that is clearly off-topic and see the results @hellfire

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## Hellfire

The Eagle said:


> Sorry to say that but that is clearly off-topic and see the results @hellfire


 
I agree. Will amend my post.

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## PARIKRAMA

*I can confirm - directly from CCS folks *

*DEAL CLEARED BY CCS, SIGN OFF ON 23RD - FRIDAY*

*Media outlets will report soon...*

*@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others*


+++++
*Indian cabinet approves purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets-source*
by Reuters
Wednesday, 21 September 2016 14:44 GMT

NEW DELHI, Sept 21 (Reuters) - India's cabinet cleared the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets from Dassault Aviation on Wednesday, paving the way for signing a deal that Prime Minister Narendra Modi is betting on to modernise the air force, a government source told Reuters.

The value of the deal, which had been repeatedly held up as the two sides haggled over financial terms, was not immediately available.

Under the deal, India will get 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition. India's fighter aircraft fleet, comprising Russian, British and French planes, is down to 33 squadrons as against the air force's requirement of 45 to counter a "two-front collusive threat" from Pakistan and China.

The two countries will sign the final deal on Friday, the source, who did not wish to be named as he is not authorised to speak to the media, said. (Reporting by Nigam Prusty; Editing by Malini Menon)

http://news.trust.org/item/20160921144633-dvdse/

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## [Bregs]

PARIKRAMA said:


> *I confirm - directly from CCS folks*
> 
> *DEAL CLEARED BY CCS, SIGN OFF ON 23RD - FRIDAY*
> 
> *Media outlets will report soon...*



Great news to hear bro 

Finally this marathon deal is going to see the light of the day

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## PARIKRAMA



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## Ankit Kumar 002

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 336524
> 
> 
> View attachment 336525
> 
> 
> View attachment 336533



Any official press release ?

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## Sri

http://news.rediff.com/commentary/2...ed-on-friday/0a70e0eb02d67f52709458d2fae46b50

CCS cleared finally.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

And one more thing. @PARIKRAMA today's CCS was also to look up in FDI proposals. I have came across that it also contained many defence one , with 1or2 from France ? Shed some light here too.

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## migflug

*Livefist* ‏@livefist  3m3 minutes agoNoida, India
With India's #RafaleDeal cleared, helps to revisit the very interesting journey the deal has had over 10 years.






*Livefist* ‏@livefist  15m15 minutes agoNoida, India
India's Cabinet, the final gate-keeper, cleared India's #RafaleDeal today. After years in doubt, big win for @Dassault_OnAir & France.



*Livefist* ‏@livefist  16m16 minutes agoNoida, India
Yes, India's #RafaleDeal has been cleared today. €7.87 billion contract to be signed on September 23 in Delhi.





33 retweets23 likes

*Livefist* ‏@livefist  26m26 minutes agoNoida, India
BREAKING: Indian approves deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets, reports @ReutersIndia.



*How Indian Negotiators Brought Down The Price Of Rafale Jets*
September 21, 2016; By: Nitin A Gokhale
Email




_Image Courtesy: DefenceWorld.Net_

*How Indian Negotiators Brought Down The Price Of Rafale Jets*

If India has not bought a single piece of artillery for over 28 years, the story is as dismal for the fleet of combat jets. No new fighter planes have been procured by the Indian Air Force (IAF) since the beginning of this century. That long wait for a new fighter plane to replace the ageing Mig-21s and beef up the depleting combat fleet, about to get over on Friday with India and France set to sign a 7.878 billion Euros contract with Dassault Aviation to supply 36 Rafale jet fighters.


*All 36 planes will be delivered to India in a span of 66 months.*

*India will receive the 1st Rafale fighter jet within three years of signing the agreement,* sources in the negotiating team have told Bharatshkati.in.

These fighter jets will have at least a dozen India-specific enhancements to suit the requirements of the IAF. *The contract will also include state-of-the-art missiles like Meteor and Scalp that will give the IAF a capability that had been sorely missing in its arsenal.*

The Meteor, for instance is a BVR (Beyond Visual Range) air-to-air missile with a range in excess of 150 km. Its integration on the Rafale jets will mean the IAF can hit targets inside both Pakistan and Tibet while still staying within India’s own territorial boundary. Scalp, a long-range air-to-ground cruise missile with a range in excess of 300 km also gives the IAF an edge over its adversaries.

*The weapons platform apart, the MoD-IAF negotiating team extracted many concessions and discounts to arrive at a price that is almost 750 million less than what was being quoted by the French side in January 2016*, when the commercial negotiations gathered pace, almost seven months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced India’s intention to buy 36 Rafales off the shelf from France during his trip to Paris in April 2015.

In January this year, a day before French President François Hollande and Prime Minister Modi were to jointly issue a statement during the French President’s visit to India , the French side had quoted a price of 8.6 billion Euros. Not willing to accept what was seen as a high price, the Indian team refused to close the deal, forcing the two leaders to issue a statement which talked about finalising the deal without the price.





To bring down the cost, the Indian team asked French officials to calculate the deal on actual cost (Price as on today) plus European Inflation Indices (which varies like stock markets and is currently around 1 per cent per annum). The MoD has also capped the European Inflation Indices to maximum 3.5 per cent a year. In other words, if inflation Indices goes down (chances of it going down are more, looking at the current situation of European markets) India will have to pay less. Even if it goes up India will not pay more than 3.5 per cent increase.



In the now scrapped process for buying 126 Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) floated the confusion reigned supreme in calculating the cost of the contract. After the French Dassault Aviation—makers of the Rafale Jet—emerged winners the UPA government had agreed with French officials to calculate the price on the fixed cost formula that allowed the company to include additional price of 3.9 per cent Inflation Indices from day 1 of the deal. *So, had the India gone ahead with the UPA deal and the European Inflation Indices had fallen (as it indeed has), India would have ended up paying additional cost of inflation Indices (@3.9 per cent) which was already added at the initial negotiation itself. *Moreover, there was confusion on the calculation of the basic price itself.

In the original MMRCA proposal the first batch of 18 planes which were to be manufactured in France and 108 were to be manufactured in India. However, when negotiations for the cost of 108 fighters began,* it was discovered that the cost would go up substantially (in fact to the tune of Rs 150 crore per plane) since the cost the labour man hours in India were 2.7 times higher than in France! *Moreover, then Defence Minister AK Antony had put down on file a remark that the negotiating team must come back to him before finalising the contract, creating more confusion for the negotiators. Clearly, with these factors, the fact that the French Company had emerged as the lowest bidder in itself had come under a cloud!

The current MoD team on the other hand extracted several other discounts. *For instance, Dassault will have to ensure that at least 75 per cent of the entire fleet remains operational at any given time. This warranty is signed for the first five years.* A comparative analysis will show that only about 60 per cent of India’s frontline fighters, the Sukhoi-30 fleet remains operational at any given time in the current scenario.

Till three years ago, only about 48 per cent of the Sukhoi fleet was able to fly at any given time, because of poor maintenance. Called the Performance-based Logistics Support, this clause can be extended by the user (the IAF) at the same cost as today for another two years with an option that the same terms can be applied for an additional five years at an additional cost that is negotiable.

*Three other minor but important concessions include free training for nine IAF personnel, including three pilots; additional guarantee for 60 hours of usage of training aircraft for Indian pilots and six months of free weapons storage without charge (in case the Indian infrastructure is not ready for storing the weapons).* The three concessions alone would make substantial saving for India, sources pointed out.

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/778605153104502785

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## randomradio

hellfire said:


> Eh, why not? Can you explain please?



There is large loss in thrust for the Chinese aircraft that take off from their Tibet bases. The LCA takes a 500Kg payload hit when taking off from Bangalore because of the elevation, and that's just 888m.

http://www.flytime.ca/landing-departing-high-altitude

And longer runways will be a luxury during wartime, on both sides.

Take the example of MMRCA trials in Leh. The F-16 had very high TWR, but the aircraft could take to the air with only 2 missiles with twice the normal takeoff run as the Rafale managed. So depending on your aircraft, even higher TWR and longer takeoff runs are not necessarily enough. The minimum cargo carrying capacity required for MMRCA in Leh was 2 fuel tanks 1000L capacity, 4 missiles and 2 tons of bombs. Only Rafale and Typhoon managed this.

So even aircraft like Rafale and Typhoon take a 50% or higher penalty from such altitudes, forget older aircraft like the J-10 or J-11.

The MKI suffers less than other Flankers because of TVC.



Taygibay said:


> Gems :​
> 
> 
> LOL
> Don't tell anyone or Raytheon's market shares would plunge ...
> they're selling it as a new technology & so are SAAB & Thales.
> http://www.bidnessetc.com/65419-raytheon-company-introduces-patriot-radar-aesa-upgrade/



I know about that. But what are you going to do if something new comes up? New stuff is always coming up. You gotta keep up.

Anyway, when it comes to the Americans, there's the open source export tech and then the closed source non-export tech. Perhaps photonics is a closed source non-export tech for them while it is less of a constraint for the Russians.



The Eagle said:


> So whatever the rivals are going to have, is called a monkey model etc. isn't that too much of undermining. I am sure, even IAF professionals wouldn't call for it like this.



PAF should stop relying on China for their fighter jets, particularly for high end. For example, the Chinese call the J-31 a pre-4th gen aircraft. That's basically a 4.5th gen if you go by western parlance. Stick with Turkey or other countries if you at least want real aircraft. The Chinese are only giving you their rejected maal, that's obvious to everyone.

In case IAF doesn't go for the Gripen, get your air force to close their eyes and buy it.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Rafale deal: India set to ink pact with France on Friday after cabinet nod*

*New Delhi: *The government has cleared the much anticipated deal with France for 36 Rafale fighter jets which will cost 7.878 billion Euros and will be signed on Friday in the presence of French Defence Minister Jean Yves Le Drian.

Defence sources said that deal for the aircraft, the first fighter jet deal in 20 years, comes with a saving of nearly 750 million Euros than the UPA era one, which was scrapped by the Narendra Modi government, besides a 50 percent offset clause.






File image of a Rafale aircraft. Reuters

This means business worth at least three billion Euros for Indian companies, both big and small, and generating hundreds of jobs in India through offsets. The Rafale fighter jets, deliveries of which will start in 36 months and finished in 66 months from the date contract is inked, comes equipped with state-of-the-art missiles like Meteor and Scalp that will give the IAF a capability that had been sorely missing in itsarsenal.

Sources said the government on Wednesday formally cleared the Inter Governmental Agreement to be signed on Friday in the presence of Drian who arrives on Thursday evening along with CEOs of Dassault Aviation, Thales and MBDA and top government officials.

*The contract for the deal was already cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security earlier. The price of the contract was fixed in May, sources said. Sources said the "vanila price" (just the 36 aircraft) is about 3.42 billion Euros. The armaments cost about 710 million Euros while Indian specific changes, including integration of Israeli helmet mounted displays, will cost 1700 million Euros.*

*Rest of the cost include spare parts, maintenance among others*. Besides other features that make the Rafale a strategic weapon in the hands of the IAF is the Beyond Visual Range Meteor air-to-air missile with a range in excess of 150 km. Its integration on the Rafale jets will mean the IAF can hit targets inside both Pakistan and across the northern and eastern borders while still staying within India's own territorial boundary.

Pakistan currently has only a BVR with 80 km range. During the Kargil war, India used a BVR of 50 km while Pakistan had none. *With Meteor, the balance of power in the air space has again tilted in India's favour. Scalp, a long-range air-to-ground cruise missile with a range in excess of 300 km also gives the IAF an edge over its adversaries.*

The tough negotiations by the MoD-IAF team extracted many concessions and discounts from the French before arriving at a price that is almost 750 million Euros less than what was being quoted by the French side in January 2016.

This was when the commercial negotiations gathered pace, almost seven months after Prime Minister Narendra Modiannounced India's intention to buy 36 Rafales off the shelf from France during his trip to Paris in April 2015.

http://www.firstpost.com/india/rafa...ance-on-friday-after-cabinet-nod-3014714.html



migflug said:


> *For instance, Dassault will have to ensure that at least 75 per cent of the entire fleet remains operational at any given time. This warranty is signed for the first five years.*





migflug said:


> *Three other minor but important concessions include free training for nine IAF personnel, including three pilots; additional guarantee for 60 hours of usage of training aircraft for Indian pilots and six months of free weapons storage without charge (in case the Indian infrastructure is not ready for storing the weapons).*





migflug said:


> he contract will also include state-of-the-art missiles like Meteor and Scalp that will give the IAF a capability that had been sorely missing in its arsenal.



Have a look again what i posted before





https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-327#post-8688450

See Clearly

75% point availability Part 2 point 2.
Look at part 2 point 1.
weapons Euro 0.7 Bn
Customizations Euro 1.8 Bn whereas the newspaper quotes 1.7 Bn
In short Plane+financial cost+Logistics support - Euro 3.55 again some items moved to other heads to quote 3.42 which newspaper says plain vanilla but thats not the case.
I said about Le Drian as well as soon you will hear about Prez Hollande in October 2016 as well.
Good to see all things are here..

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## jaiind

The Rafale fighter jets comes equipped with state-of-the-art missiles like Meteor and Scalp.

The government has cleared the much anticipated deal with France for 36 Rafale fighter jets which will cost 7.878 billion Euros and will be signed on Friday in the presence of French Defence Minister Jean Yves Le Drian...

Defence sources said that deal for the aircraft, the first fighter jet deal in 20 years, comes with a saving of nearly 750 million Euros than the UPA , which was scrapped by the Narendra Modi government, besides a 50 per cent offset clause.

The Rafale fighter jets, deliveries of which will start in 36 months and finished in 66 months from the date contract is inked, comes equipped with state-of-the-art missiles like Meteor and Scalp that will give the IAF a capability that had been sorely missing in its arsenal.......


Sources said the government on Wednesday formally cleared the Inter Governmental Agreement to be signed on Friday in the presence of Drian who arrives with CEOs of Dassault Aviation, Thales and MBDA and top government officials.

The contract for the deal was already cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security earlier. The price of the contract was fixed in May,Sources said the "vanila price" (just the 36 aircraft) is about 3.42 billion Euros. The armaments cost about 710 million Euros while Indian specific changes, including integration of Israeli helmet mounted displays, will cost 1700 million Euros. Rest of the cost include spare parts, maintenance
among others......


Besides other features that make the Rafale a strategic weapon in the hands of the IAF is the Beyond Visual Range Meteor air-to-air missile with a range in excess of 150 KM.......

Its integration on the Rafale jets will mean the IAF can hit targets inside both Pakistan and across the northern and eastern borders while still staying within India's own territorial boundary.......


Pakistan currently has only a BVR with 80 km range. During the Kargil war, India used a BVR of 50 km while Pakistan had none. With Meteor, the balance of power in the air space has again tilted in India's favour.......


Scalp, a long-range air-to-ground cruise missile with a range in excess of 300 km also gives the IAF an edge over its adversaries.

The tough negotiations by the MoD-IAF team extracted many concessions and discounts from the French before arriving at a price that is almost 750 mill..Euros less than what was being quoted by the French side in January 2016. This was when the commercial negotiations gathered pace, almost seven months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced India's intention to buy 36 Rafales off the shelf from France during his trip to Paris in April 2015......

@PARIKRAMA @MilSpec @gslv @SrNair@nairsaab etx

...

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## randomradio

hellfire said:


> In high altitude you need longer. TAR has average 4000 m length airfields.
> 
> The more practical and alternate appreciation is that they can indeed take off with maximal load for a strike. There is no limitation.
> 
> Leh did not have the problem for Su-30 if I recall correctly. Even if they have to carry less fuel, a pre-positioned refueller takes care of it. Hence my looking for a clarification because this is a decade and a half back thought process.



Using fighters as refueler can cut your numbers by 30% for strike missions. And using a dedicated refueler increases transit time to and from safe locations.

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## #hydra#

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Ind...ith-France-on-Friday/articleshow/54447844.cms



PARIKRAMA said:


> *Rafale deal: India set to ink pact with France on Friday after cabinet nod*
> 
> *New Delhi: *The government has cleared the much anticipated deal with France for 36 Rafale fighter jets which will cost 7.878 billion Euros and will be signed on Friday in the presence of French Defence Minister Jean Yves Le Drian.
> 
> Defence sources said that deal for the aircraft, the first fighter jet deal in 20 years, comes with a saving of nearly 750 million Euros than the UPA era one, which was scrapped by the Narendra Modi government, besides a 50 percent offset clause.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> File image of a Rafale aircraft. Reuters
> 
> This means business worth at least three billion Euros for Indian companies, both big and small, and generating hundreds of jobs in India through offsets. The Rafale fighter jets, deliveries of which will start in 36 months and finished in 66 months from the date contract is inked, comes equipped with state-of-the-art missiles like Meteor and Scalp that will give the IAF a capability that had been sorely missing in itsarsenal.
> 
> Sources said the government on Wednesday formally cleared the Inter Governmental Agreement to be signed on Friday in the presence of Drian who arrives on Thursday evening along with CEOs of Dassault Aviation, Thales and MBDA and top government officials.
> 
> *The contract for the deal was already cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security earlier. The price of the contract was fixed in May, sources said. Sources said the "vanila price" (just the 36 aircraft) is about 3.42 billion Euros. The armaments cost about 710 million Euros while Indian specific changes, including integration of Israeli helmet mounted displays, will cost 1700 million Euros.*
> 
> *Rest of the cost include spare parts, maintenance among others*. Besides other features that make the Rafale a strategic weapon in the hands of the IAF is the Beyond Visual Range Meteor air-to-air missile with a range in excess of 150 km. Its integration on the Rafale jets will mean the IAF can hit targets inside both Pakistan and across the northern and eastern borders while still staying within India's own territorial boundary.
> 
> Pakistan currently has only a BVR with 80 km range. During the Kargil war, India used a BVR of 50 km while Pakistan had none. *With Meteor, the balance of power in the air space has again tilted in India's favour. Scalp, a long-range air-to-ground cruise missile with a range in excess of 300 km also gives the IAF an edge over its adversaries.*
> 
> The tough negotiations by the MoD-IAF team extracted many concessions and discounts from the French before arriving at a price that is almost 750 million Euros less than what was being quoted by the French side in January 2016.
> 
> This was when the commercial negotiations gathered pace, almost seven months after Prime Minister Narendra Modiannounced India's intention to buy 36 Rafales off the shelf from France during his trip to Paris in April 2015.
> 
> http://www.firstpost.com/india/rafa...ance-on-friday-after-cabinet-nod-3014714.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have a look again what i posted before
> 
> View attachment 336548
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-327#post-8688450
> 
> See Clearly
> 
> 75% point availability Part 2 point 2.
> Look at part 2 point 1.
> weapons Euro 0.7 Bn
> Customizations Euro 1.8 Bn whereas the newspaper quotes 1.7 Bn
> In short Plane+financial cost+Logistics support - Euro 3.55 again some items moved to other heads to quote 3.42 which newspaper says plain vanilla but thats not the case.
> I said about Le Drian as well as soon you will hear about Prez Hollande in October 2016 as well.
> Good to see all things are here..


36 aircraft will take more than 5 years?y this much time

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## The Eagle

randomradio said:


> PAF should stop relying on China for their fighter jets, particularly for high end.



PAF never claimed as such though we are evaluating any option available for us. I will believe ACM words that PAF is looking for such bird in west and east both. No mentioning of China alone at all.




> For example, the Chinese call the J-31 a pre-4th gen aircraft. That's basically a 4.5th gen if you go by western parlance.



Chinese Genration system is minus one of that US/West like they call J-20 a 4th Generation whereby such category is defined as 5th by US/West or rest of the world. Same is applied for J series that are 3rd generation for China but as per specs, are 4th Generation for the rest of the world. For China 5th Generation would be what US etc calls 6th Generation.




> Stick with Turkey or other countries if you at least want real aircraft.



No Professional Air Force would ever go for any A/C which does not worth today. PAF knows better about where to look and what to have so we are invited by Turkey for TFX as well as there is invitation for FC-31. 




> The Chinese are only giving you their *rejected maal,* that's obvious to everyone.



Would be obvious for rivals but not for the Professionals that is why I said, undermining the adversary would cause you more damage by surprise. As China is good by keeping it secret until & unless wanted to share with the world but still prove the mettle by the PLAAF is progressing and birds are growing rapidly by the passage of time. There are analysts and professionals. praising the Chinese achievements though it is just matter of time that soon they are going to close the gape with west and most of them. Those so-called everyone are merely rivals and could be doing some political stunts so we will be taking such statements like failed attempts. PAF is a professional Air Force and knows to fulfill the needs through which mean and based upon what platform which fits the doctrine through proper feasibility and evaluation. 

Rest about that Red, Bold highlighted part, very offensive and hopefully you wouldn't repeat such remarks about any sovereign nation(s) as neither they are offering such nor we ever had it but we are happy to deal with China that too in times where PAF was very limited with options to buy any weapon and we are still supporting each other. 




> In case IAF doesn't go for the Gripen, get your air force to close their eyes and buy it



We have no need for that, JF-17 is growing and is planned with Block-III which is going to fulfill the need in that category so also, it depends upon the doctrine of PAF and currently, there is no interest for Gripen at all or even, if the dire need warrants for such bird, we would prefer J-10s for such class. 


_Side note: My post was only to remind you that no need to drag in other subject whereby this thread is for Rafale discussion. Enjoy the thread for Rafale. _

Thanks.

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## Hephaestus

PARIKRAMA said:


> *I can confirm - directly from CCS folks *
> 
> *DEAL CLEARED BY CCS, SIGN OFF ON 23RD - FRIDAY*
> 
> *Media outlets will report soon...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +++++
> *Indian cabinet approves purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets-source*
> by Reuters
> Wednesday, 21 September 2016 14:44 GMT
> 
> NEW DELHI, Sept 21 (Reuters) - India's cabinet cleared the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets from Dassault Aviation on Wednesday, paving the way for signing a deal that Prime Minister Narendra Modi is betting on to modernise the air force, a government source told Reuters.
> 
> The value of the deal, which had been repeatedly held up as the two sides haggled over financial terms, was not immediately available.
> 
> Under the deal, India will get 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition. India's fighter aircraft fleet, comprising Russian, British and French planes, is down to 33 squadrons as against the air force's requirement of 45 to counter a "two-front collusive threat" from Pakistan and China.
> 
> The two countries will sign the final deal on Friday, the source, who did not wish to be named as he is not authorised to speak to the media, said. (Reporting by Nigam Prusty; Editing by Malini Menon)
> 
> http://news.trust.org/item/20160921144633-dvdse/



Finally, better late than never. But @PARIKRAMA Sir, I am more interested in the followup order or the MII line. Any insights on that. Now that the 1st hurdle is out of the way. 
Many thanks!

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## Hellfire

randomradio said:


> Using fighters as refueler can cut your numbers by 30% for strike missions. And using a dedicated refueler increases transit time to and from safe locations.



A refueller, not fighters as refuellers, based in situ does not create a problem, I am sure you are aware of the factors for such operations.

Anyways thanks for clarifying the point

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## PARIKRAMA

#hydra# said:


> http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Ind...ith-France-on-Friday/articleshow/54447844.cms
> 
> 
> 36 aircraft will take more than 5 years?y this much time


We waited too long.. in piped queues. Still I think as far as I understand we might get it between 3rd and 4th year max numbers with perhaps a couple of jets beforr 3rd year itself. I see another very small number in 5th year.

++
What's now more important is turn the screw and focus on MII.

This deal is done and dusted and now only formality is left.

Now it's time for MII and quicken the pace. We need it on priority and for our country's security.



Hephaestus said:


> Finally, better late than never. But @PARIKRAMA Sir, I am more interested in the followup order or the MII line. Any insights on that. Now that the 1st hurdle is out of the way.
> Many thanks!



100% correct.
Time for MII tahts should be the priority. Fasten the pace and get it done quickly.

Till last Rafale comes from Merignac ensure Indian line is up and ready. Taht should be the target

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## Vergennes



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## first77

189 French Rafale fighters will cost $60 billion


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## Hellfire

@PARIKRAMA @Vergennes 

Now, my next Q

MII? Are we heading there? Because if not, then I would like to shoot someone other than me

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## ranjeet



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## Ankit Kumar 002

@waz @WAJsal @Oscar @PARIKRAMA 
Please close the thread and warn the person for opening zombie threads , when we have a sticky running. 

Thanks.


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## coffee_cup

Year 2070?

But by then they all will be obselete!


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## punit

@PARIKRAMA is it sure for sure !! personally i wont believe any news till i saw Rafale in IAF colors !!

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## AKD

coffee_cup said:


> Year 2070?
> 
> But by then they all will be obselete!


No by 2025...
When SU 35 are coming? 2100


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## zambino

At lasttt! The day has come." Kitni shiddat se tumhe paane ki koshish ki hain.. Ke har zarre ne tumse milane ki saajish ki hain.." ;-)

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## eldamar

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @PARIKRAMA
> Please close the thread and warn the person for opening zombie threads , when we have a sticky running.
> 
> Thanks.



atually its ok to see these old threads, especially when it's amusing to see how todays de facto situation is completely different from what fanboys fantasised about a few years back then:

_127 Sukhoi-FGFA
65 HAL AMCA
360 Sukhoi-Super-30
*200 Dassault Rafaels <=== hahahaa*
254 HAL LCA Tejas
51 Mirage-2000H Mk-3
148 Jaguar-SL-UPG
total 1,205 combat jets & 60 squadrons.....!!!!!_

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/india-co...hter-jets-sources.230070/page-7#ixzz4Kuee0Ho9


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## migflug

livefist

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## coffee_cup

eldarlmari said:


> atually its ok to see these old threads, especially when it's amusing to see how todays de facto situation is completely different from what fanboys fantasised about a few years back then:
> 
> _127 Sukhoi-FGFA
> 65 HAL AMCA
> 360 Sukhoi-Super-30
> *200 Dassault Rafaels <=== hahahaa*
> 254 HAL LCA Tejas
> 51 Mirage-2000H Mk-3
> 148 Jaguar-SL-UPG
> total 1,205 combat jets & 60 squadrons.....!!!!!_
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/india-co...hter-jets-sources.230070/page-7#ixzz4Kuee0Ho9



Oh this is what they were planing to have?

Seems like quite a shopping list.

Till which year was that planned?


----------



## Ankit Kumar 002

Am for loss of words at what our educated generation thinks. 


> In order to understand How Rafale deal could have been improved, we have to understand WHY Rafale was chosen. Rafale was chosen for 2 reasons: 1) It serves a strategic delivery role for Indian nuclear capabilities, 2) It provides Indian Air Force officials and politicians well deserved bribes.
> 
> Each Rafale costs India around $222 Million. The most expensive F-16 would cost India $100 Million and the Most expensive Gripen NG would cost India $100 Million something as well.
> 
> So India could have purchased 2 fighters for the cost of 1 Rafale. Ah....but what about Pakistan using F-16s? Why would India buy something that its enemy also uses? Well, then why use Su-30MKI? China also uses Su-30 variant, right? Oh but that variant is different from the MKI. Well then, the F-16s that were offered to India were also much different from any other F-16 in the world.
> 
> Why would F-16 benefit India? F-16 is the backbone of Pakistani Air Force. The whole world knows that US wants to shut down its facility of F-16s as they are switching to F-35s. However, many other nations are still operating the F-16s. Who will provide them with F-16s and services? US risks those countries switching over to Russia for their weaponry if the F-16 production is shut down. However, If India gets the production facility, as US wants, then not only US ensures those countries sticking with them but also ensures that Indian aviation can earn money as they are the manufacturing hub for those F-16s. Additionally, India can use the lessons learned from manufacturing F-16s to kick-start their own aviation industry which as been suffering miserably. Additionally, India can deny Pakistan F-16 spares....forcing their country to buy Chinese and put a further strain on their economy. China will ost likely be giving Pakistan their own fighters on credit as well, which will also strain Chinese economy in the long run.
> 
> Why would JAS 39 Gripen benefit India? SAAB has long wanted to cop-paste their own manufacturing plant in India. Tejas is a fighter of the same level as JAs 39 (maybe a little inferior). Making JAS-39 at home will ensure that Tejas Mk2 program gets a boost. As a result, India can induct more Tejas Mk2 in their Air Force, achieve self-reliance and also export them in the future.
> 
> Furthermore, both F-16 and JAS 39 would allow India to build their AMCA project much better as India can rely on western experience to make their own product. Rafale doesn't provide that as their engines have been rejected multiple times due to poor thrust. India can also procure F-35s from US if it wishes to chose the F-16s as Lockheed had previously promised. With PAK-FA seeming like a distant dream, it would be of great benefit to India if it can have F-35 fighters to counter the Chinese J-20 and J-31 which have already entered production.
> 
> Indian Mirage already have a capability to carry nuclear weapons, and F-16s also posses the ability to carry and deliver nuclear weapons. JAS-39 is unable to do so. So the excuse that Rafale was the only platform able to deliver nukes strategically is a very weak one.
> 
> The main reason why Rafale is chosen is because Air Force officials and Politicians want their share of the bribes after congress has already eaten their pie. Rafale doesn't cost close to $222 Million, and I suspect the difference will go to these officials.
> 
> The choice was simple. India could have opted for cheaper alternative and fulfilled more Squadrons. Instead, they chose to pay the same price and fulfill only 2 squadrons because bribes were more important.
> 
> You can hate me all you want, but deep down you know what Indian politicians want. It happened with BOFORS and it's happening with MMRCA.



This was in the comments here https://m.facebook.com/comment/repl...tifier=1191571840920869&gfid=AQBTMc-uJPjph7Kb

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## GuardianRED

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Am for loss of words at what our educated generation thinks.
> 
> 
> This was in the comments here https://m.facebook.com/comment/repl...tifier=1191571840920869&gfid=AQBTMc-uJPjph7Kb


Bro , Im in a good mood !, don't spoil it with such ignorance post!

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## first77

china to Receive 4 Su-35 Fighter Jets From Russia in 2016


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## Ali Zadi

ok so one question according to this:

http://idrw.org/breaking-news-much-anticipated-rafale-deal-cleared-signed-friday/

"comes with a saving of nearly 750 million Euros than the UPA era one"

So by this he means that the whole MRCA deal or just the 18 aircraft that was suppose to be bought from them. The $8.2 billion that was originally allocated for MRCA is obviously less than the US$8.8 billion for the current deal.

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## PARIKRAMA

SO we will see this formation in Republic day right...

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Ali Zadi said:


> ok so one question according to this:
> 
> http://idrw.org/breaking-news-much-anticipated-rafale-deal-cleared-signed-friday/
> 
> "comes with a saving of nearly 750 million Euros than the UPA era one"
> 
> So by this he means that the whole MRCA deal or just the 18 aircraft that was suppose to be bought from them. The $8.2 billion that was originally allocated for MRCA is obviously less than the US$8.8 billion for the current deal.


The MMRCA deal was for the planes only, on this deal the planes seems to cost 3.42 billions so for 126 planes it would have cost 12 billions. If they have saved 750 millions it means that the 36 planes at MMRCA price cost 4.17 billions and the 126 planes would have cost 14.6 billions.

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> The MMRCA deal was for the planes only, on this deal the planes seems to cost 3.42 billions so for 126 planes it would have cost 12 billions. If they have saved 750 millions it means that the 36 planes at MMRCA price cost 4.17 billions and the 126 planes would have cost 14.6 billions.



The MMRCA cost you quoted is accurate. That came to 90000Cr last year.

Parrikar got what he wanted to achieve. UPA can't complain now.

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## debspark90

PARIKRAMA said:


> SO we will see this formation in Republic day right...


Absolutely

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## Armani

I will reserve celebrations till 23rd at least.

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## #hydra#

So what will be paf's response?will they go for su35s.


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## randomradio

#hydra# said:


> So what will be paf's response?will they go for su35s.



Dude, it's repeated everywhere on the forum, but can we at least keep this thread free from this? There are no negotiations going on for the Su-35 with PAF, there is nothing happening in that front. It's all hot air.

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## PARIKRAMA

And media starts a unnecessary PR campaign







+++
DEFENCE
*Win-Win Rafale Deal: How Indian Negotiators Brought Down The Price Of Fighter Jets *
Nitin Gokhale - September 22, 2016, 1:53 pm
Shares 8

*SNAPSHOT*




India and France have finally agreed to the terms for the Rafale jet deal. 

An analysis of the process reveals that Indian negotiators were well aware of the critical nuances of it, and used them to India’s advantage. 


If India has not bought a single piece of artillery for more than 28 years, the story is as dismal for the fleet of combat jets. No new fighter planes have been procured by the Indian Air Force (IAF) since the beginning of this century. The long wait for new fighter jets to replace the ageing MiG-21s and beef up the depleting combat fleet is about to get over tomorrow (23 September) with India and France set to sign a 7.878 billion Euros contract with Dassault Aviation to supply 36 Rafale jet fighters.

All 36 planes will be delivered to India in a span of 66 months.

*India will receive the first Rafale fighter jet within three years of signing the agreement, sources in the negotiating team have said.*

*These fighter jets will have at least a dozen India-specific enhancements to suit the requirements of the IAF. *The contract will also include state-of-the-art missiles like Meteor and Scalp that will give the IAF a capability that had been sorely missing in its arsenal.

The Meteor, for instance is a BVR (Beyond Visual Range) air-to-air missile with a range in excess of 150 km. Its integration on the Rafale jets will mean the IAF can hit targets inside both Pakistan and Tibet while still staying within India’s own territorial boundary. *Scalp, a long-range air-to-ground cruise missile, with a range in excess of 300 km also gives the IAF an edge over its adversaries.*

The weapons platform apart, the Ministry of Defence (MoD)-IAF negotiating team extracted many concessions and discounts to arrive at a price that is almost 750 million Euros less than what was being quoted by the French side in January 2016, when the commercial negotiations gathered pace, almost seven months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced India’s intention to buy 36 Rafales off the shelf from France during his trip to Paris in April 2015.

In *January this year, a day before French President François Hollande and Prime Minister Modi were to jointly issue a statement during the French President’s visit to India, the French side had quoted a price of 8.6 billion Euros. Not willing to accept what was seen as a high price, the Indian team refused to close the deal, forcing the two leaders to issue a statement which talked about finalising the deal without the price.*

To bring down the cost, the Indian team asked French officials to calculate the deal on actual cost (price as on today) plus European inflation indices (which varies like stock markets and is currently around one per cent per annum). The MoD has also capped the European Inflation Indices to maximum 3.5 per cent a year. In other words, if inflation indices go down (chances of it going down are more, looking at the current situation of European markets) India will have to pay less. Even if it goes up India will not pay more than 3.5 per cent increase.

In the now scrapped process for buying 126 Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), confusion reigned supreme in calculating the cost of the contract. After the French Dassault Aviation—makers of the Rafale Jet — emerged winners, the UPA government had agreed with French officials to calculate the price on the fixed-cost formula that allowed the company to include additional price of 3.9 per cent inflation indices from day one of the deal. So, had India gone ahead with the UPA deal and the European inflation indices had fallen (as it indeed has), India would have ended up paying additional cost of inflation indices (at 3.9 per cent) which was already added at the initial negotiation itself. Moreover, there was confusion on the calculation of the basic price itself.

In the original MMRCA proposal, the first batch of 18 planes were to be manufactured in France, and the next 108 were to be manufactured in India. However, when negotiations for the cost of 108 fighters began, it was discovered that the cost would go up substantially (in fact to the tune of Rs 150 crore per plane) since the cost of labour man hours in India were 2.7 times higher than in France. Moreover, then defence minister AK Antony had put down on file a remark that the negotiating team must come back to him before finalising the contract, creating more confusion for the negotiators. Clearly, with these factors, the fact that the French company had emerged as the lowest bidder in itself had come under a cloud!

*The current MoD team on the other hand extracted several other discounts. For instance, Dassault will have to ensure that at least 75 per cent of the entire fleet remains operational at any given time. This warranty is signed for the first five years. A comparative analysis will show that only about 60 per cent of India’s frontline fighters, the Sukhoi-30 fleet remain operational at any given time in the current scenario.

Till three years ago, only about 48 per cent of the Sukhoi fleet was able to fly at any given time, because of poor maintenance. Called the performance-based logistics support, this clause can be extended by the user (the IAF) at the same cost as today for another two years with an option that the same terms can be applied for an additional five years at an additional cost that is negotiable.

Three other minor but important concessions include free training for nine IAF personnel, including three pilots; additional guarantee for 60 hours of usage of training aircraft for Indian pilots and six months of free weapons storage without charge (in case the Indian infrastructure is not ready for storing the weapons). The three concessions alone would make substantial saving for India, sources pointed out.*

*This piece was originally appeared onBharatshakti.in and has been republished here with permission*

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## WAJsal

Sorry guys a technical mistake on our part, @WebMaster will fix it soon. Sticky Rafale thread will be opened soon. Again sorry.

@Horus

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## Zarvan

A Rafale fighter jet flies during the Flying Spirit aerial meeting in Biscarrosse ─ AFP


NEW DELHI: India may have just spent billions of dollars on hi-tech French fighter jets, but experts say it needs to do a lot more if it is going to face up to an increasingly assertive China.

The world's top defence importer has signed several big-ticket deals as part of a $100-billion upgrade since Hindu nationalist Prime Minister Narendra Modi took power in 2014.

But it has been slow to replace its dwindling fleet of Russian MiG-21s ─ dubbed "Flying Coffins" because of their poor safety record.

An agreement to buy 36 cutting edge Rafale jets from France's Dassault aims to fix that.

"It will give the air force an arrowhead. Our air force has old aircraft, 1970s and 1980s generation aircraft and for the first time in about 25-30 years we will have a quantum jump in technology," defence analyst Gulshan Luthra told AFP.

"Rafale is loaded with (the) best of the technologies and we need it." The air force says it needs at least 42 squadrons to protect its northern and western borders with Pakistan and China.

It currently has around 32, each comprising 18 aircraft. Air force representatives warned India's parliament last year that the number of squadrons could fall to 25 by 2022, putting India on a par with its nuclear-armed neighbour and arch-rival Pakistan.

*'Pakistan we can handle'*
The real concern is China, an ally of Pakistan whose military capacities are way in excess of India's.

"Pakistan we can handle. Pakistan we can muscle our way, but China, no way we can handle," said Luthra.

"And if China comes to the aid of Pakistan, then we're stuck." China and India fought a brief war in 1962, and the border between the neighbours has never been formally demarcated, although they have signed accords to maintain peace.

The Rafale deal, due to be signed in New Delhi on Friday, will supply another two squadrons, although it will be three years before delivery of the jets begins.

It falls way short of previous proposals for India to buy 126 of the jets, which stalled over costs and assembly guarantees.

Currently being used for bombing missions over Syria and Iraq, the Rafale can fly distances of up to 3,800 kilometres (2,360 miles).

Experts say it will allow the air force to strike targets in Pakistan and China from within Indian territory. But critics argue the Rafale purchase is a costly solution to the problem, even after India bargained hard to get the price down to a reported 7.9 billion euros ($8.8 billion).

*'Can't afford Mercedes'*
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar reportedly said last year the larger Rafale deal was too expensive.

"We are not buying the rest. I also feel like having a BMW and Mercedes. But I don't because I can't afford it." Modi has said he wants to end India's status as the world's number one defence importer and to have 70 percent of hardware manufactured domestically by the turn of the decade.

His government lifted a cap on foreign investment in defence to 49 per cent last year.

Many now believe India will use the money saved from scrapping the larger Rafale order to invest in its first domestically developed light fighter plane, the Tejas.

The aircraft, touted as the smallest and lightest supersonic fighter aircraft of their class, are designed and manufactured in India, although some components are imported.

Defence analyst Ajai Shukla said the purchase of 36 Rafales would "placate Dassault, the Indian Air Force and public opinion" after the larger deal was scrapped, but did not make good operational sense.

"You don't replace a small, light fighter plane with an extraordinarily expensive heavy monster like Rafale," he said.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1285397/india-needs-more-than-rafale-jets-to-match-china-experts


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## Tshering22

Indeed.

What India needs is an Emergency declaration and rapid allocation to manufacturing by DPSUs.

Technically we are still 30 years behind what we should be thanks to all the shitty bureaucracy.

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## Centurion2016

With delivery of 36 Rafales by 2021 IAF will have the following

36 Rafales
50 Mirage2000/5
270 Su30mki
60 Mig29 up
60 Tejas mk1a
70 Jaguar


By 2021 iaf will 4 years away from inducting FGFA from Russia but customised to indian needs

PLAAF

Same time IE 2021 will have

350 J10
400 S30/27/J11/
300 F7/J8/JH7
150 bombers

by 2021 I expect to see J20 months away from entering service I suspect J31 wil not be ready until at least 2024/2025


With PLAAF facing USA navy Taiwan Japan And Korea threy can t really have otre one third that fleet at indian theatre.

IN WHICH CASE IAF will have enough


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## Rajaraja Chola

India has a follow on clause for 18 more aircraft, which I am sure is yet to happen. Using this time, negotiators can try talking like a MKI like deal for production in India.


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## jaiind

Finally rafale would fly in Indian colors

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## Echo_419

JEEVAY JEEVAY Rafale

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## PARIKRAMA

*India approves purchase of 36 Rafale*
The 09/21/2016 at 18:00



*After nearly half a year of tough negotiations between Paris and New Delhi, the Indian government has opened the way to the end of commercial paper. Holland asked Le Drian to go Friday in New Delhi.*





According to the Indian press the transaction amount would be 7.87 billion euros.

DASSAULT AVIATION / BRUNO PLASSIN

The Indian government approved Wednesday, September 21, purchase at France 36 fighter aircraft Rafale of Dassault, largest export order for the French fighter. After nearly half a year of tough negotiations between Paris and New Delhi, the green light from the government of Narendra Modi terminate this long-term commercial soap to center relations between the two countries.

"The contract was approved during a meeting tonight. It will be formally signed by the French defense minister and his Indian counterpart on September 23 in New Delhi," said a ministry official of the Indian defense under cover of anonymity told AFP.

If neither the French authorities nor Dassault are expressed themselves on this announcement, the Elysee has however confirmed by news coming Friday in New Delhi Jean-Yves Le Drian.

After a difficult start to export the Rafale had been sold in 2015 in Qatar and Egypt. Each had acquired 24 aircraft.

*The details of the voluminous agreement, including the price and the full range of weaponry purchased, "will be made public after the signing ceremony," said the Indian official.*

According to the Press Trust of India, India would pay a total of € 7.9 billion for the contract.

*Saga of the Rafale in India*
This agreement, however, remains modest in comparison to what was described from "contract of the century".

The most populous democracy in the world originally had launched a tender for 126 combat aircraft, for which it had entered into exclusive negotiations with Dassault in 2012.

But the order was never born. New Delhi demanded indeed significant technology transfer, in order to boost its local industry, which would have led to significant additional costs.

Came to power in 2014 in favor of political change, the new Indian Prime Minister had officially recorded the failure of negotiations and canceled the procedure.

On the occasion of a trip to Paris in April 2015, Narendra Modi had announced the intention of his government to buy 36 Rafaleready to fly, negotiated as part of an agreement from state to state.

*Military applications*
The arrival of French fighters should alleviate some of the Indian Air Force, which denounces longtime insufficient equipment in her to show up to the geopolitical challenges in the region.

Besides the old enmity with neighboring Pakistan since independence, India is faced with the rise and affirmation of China on the Asian continent.

*"It's a contract that should have been completed much earlier. The Rafale beats all other combat aircraft in the region," enthused Manmohan Bahadur, vice-marshal of the air force retired seal by AFP.*

The purchase of the Rafale will allow New Delhi to modernize its aging fleet, many composed of Russian aircraft at end of life.

But this command does not fully palliate the needs of its air force. In 2015, it had only 35 squadrons of 18 aircraft, when she felt in need of at least 42.

*A first step?*
*"The Indian Army has very heavy modernization needs," said Corentin Brustlein, head of security studies at the French Institute of International Relations (IFRI).*

*"Beyond the sale of these 36 ( Rafale ), there is the prospect of an even more important dimension of contract that would Dassault live for many more years," he says.*

*In the past, leaders of the manufacturer clearly expressed their wish that this contract is a first step, opening the door to new opportunities in India.*

The French arms exports reached a record 16.9 billion euros in 2015, more than double the previous year, thanks to the first contracts for the sale of fighter Rafale abroad.

This contract should give a boost to trade between France and India. In 2014, the last year for which statistics were available, they amounted to 7.9 billion euros.

(With AFP)
http://www.challenges.fr/entreprise...ne-son-feu-vert-a-l-achat-de-36-rafale_427720

+++
I like the fact that finally such more views are slowly coming out 

Quite appropriately some infographics are out like this





At least dozen specific Indian enhancements to suit IAF requirements. and a cost for that.. Looks like whatever we have discussed earlier is now looked with lens by many other folks as well. Of course PR exercise is a bit over the top, but its raising the curtains to eventual stuff which is justifiable based on what its portraying as of now.


@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @GuardianRED @Armani @randomradio @R!CK @Ankit Kumar 002 @[Bregs] @MilSpec @hellfire @Spectre @nair @Joe Shearer @SpArK

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## HIT AND RUN

*The Rafale gets bad reviews based on three reasons, all of which will be explained here. *
1. The Rafale is highly priced. This is actually due to the fact that the French _Armee de l'Air_ (French Air Force) wanted a plane that could fit the roles of "seven planes in one" (directly translated from the words of a top ranking French official). This would explain the high price.
2. The Russians and the EU (especially the UK), the proponents of the Sukhoi Su-35, MiG 35, and the Eurofighter Typhoon are in utter disappointment over the Rafale's win in the MMRCA and want to destroy its reputation.
3. (This one "piggybacks" off of the second reason.)French company, Dassault, had originally been a part of the Eurofighter consortium before pulling out due to disagreements with other partner nations and corporations. When they pulled out, the Eurofighter-backing nations were surprised to see that Dassault had actually designed a more potent aircraft than they had and wanted to crush the Rafale's export prospects.

This is why India would buy this so-called "inferior" jet.


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## kmc_chacko



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## Vergennes



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## Ankit Kumar 002

Good , seems there was some technical issue with the earlier thread. 

We should continue here.

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## WAJsal

Sorry all for the technical difficulties, all my fault. I have recovered it all. Use this thread for all the news and updates and congrats. 
@PARIKRAMA 
regards

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## PARIKRAMA

WAJsal said:


> Sorry all for the technical difficulties, all my fault. I have recovered it all. Use this thread for all the news and updates and congrats.
> @PARIKRAMA
> regards


Thank you my good friend and dont worry about the tech issues..
Thanks again for your hard work

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## shree835

Vergennes said:


> View attachment 336790



We need another 90 Jets...Believe India and France need to look into it very closely.

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## PARIKRAMA

Some points from Prasun K Sengupta


With India’s Union Cabinet clearing the €7.87 billion deal with France, a contract for 36 Rafale MMRCAs will be signed on September 23, 2016 in Delhi. 
Negotiations over the past 17 months have yielded more advantages to the Indian side over the MMRCA deal. 
The French had made an opening offer of €12 billion in May 2015 when the negotiations began. 
The French offer came down to €8.6 billion on the midnight of 25-26 January, 2016 when French President François Hollande was in India as a chief guest for the Republic Day celebrations. 
But the Indian side wanted the price to be reduced further. 
It was in* May 2016 *that the two sides finally agreed at a price of €7.878 billion.. 
Prime Minister Modi had confirmed in Paris in April 2015 that India would buy 36 Rafales, all built in France. 
*The Rafales will have 14 India-specific enhancements and MBDA-built 150km-range Meteor air-to-air missiles & Scalp-EG cruise missiles as part of the €7.878-billion (around Rs 59,000 crore) deal.* 
The French will also guarantee performance-based logistics support which means that 75% of the fleet will be airworthy at any given time. *IAF will also get free training for nine personnel, including three pilots, estimated to be worth €100 million. *
*The IAF will get an additional guarantee for an additional 60 flight-hours for the trainer version of Rafale, and a concession to keep the weapons storage in France for an additional six months without any charge. *
*The French have also agreed to supply spares for a period of 7 years at initial cost, instead of five years, with an option that a new deal will be negotiated for the next five years. *
The standard European escalation cost has also been brought down from 4% to 3.5%.
++

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## kaykay

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/778961959433547776

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## Foxbat Alok

PARIKRAMA said:


> Some points from Prasun K Sengupta
> 
> 
> With India’s Union Cabinet clearing the €7.87 billion deal with France, a contract for 36 Rafale MMRCAs will be signed on September 23, 2016 in Delhi.
> Negotiations over the past 17 months have yielded more advantages to the Indian side over the MMRCA deal.
> The French had made an opening offer of €12 billion in May 2015 when the negotiations began.
> The French offer came down to €8.6 billion on the midnight of 25-26 January, 2016 when French President François Hollande was in India as a chief guest for the Republic Day celebrations.
> But the Indian side wanted the price to be reduced further.
> It was in* May 2016 *that the two sides finally agreed at a price of €7.878 billion..
> Prime Minister Modi had confirmed in Paris in April 2015 that India would buy 36 Rafales, all built in France.
> *The Rafales will have 14 India-specific enhancements and MBDA-built 150km-range Meteor air-to-air missiles & Scalp-EG cruise missiles as part of the €7.878-billion (around Rs 59,000 crore) deal.*
> The French will also guarantee performance-based logistics support which means that 75% of the fleet will be airworthy at any given time. *IAF will also get free training for nine personnel, including three pilots, estimated to be worth €100 million. *
> *The IAF will get an additional guarantee for an additional 60 flight-hours for the trainer version of Rafale, and a concession to keep the weapons storage in France for an additional six months without any charge. *
> *The French have also agreed to supply spares for a period of 7 years at initial cost, instead of five years, with an option that a new deal will be negotiated for the next five years. *
> The standard European escalation cost has also been brought down from 4% to 3.5%.
> ++


Great 
so if am not wrong the deal is
1-Dassault has agreed to make India-specific modifications to the planes, allowing the integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays. 
2-they will provide Meteor air-to-air missile with a beyond-visual-range over 100 km & Strom shadow air-launched cruise missile with a range of over 560 km
3-A complete transfer of technology, including for the Thales RBE2-AA radar and software source code, spare parts, maintenance, training, and a guarantee of 75 percent operational availability for the first five years
& when we get Rafael we will integrate bramhos-NG ,will make the Rafale a lethal platform by land or sea.j
Jai modi
Jai bharat

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## anant_s

@Vergennes
How is French press looking at this deal?

List of French Aircrafts to have served IAF/IN

*Ouragan (Toofani)*









*Mystere IV








Breguet Alizé





Mirage 2000





*

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

*India needs more than Rafale to match China: Experts*
AFP | Updated: Sep 22, 2016, 07.39 PM IST
*HIGHLIGHTS*

Air Force says it needs at least 42 squadrons to protect its borders with Pakistan and China
The Rafale deal will supply another two squadrons
Real concern is China's military capacities are way in excess of India's




(AFP photo)
NEW DELHI: India may have just spent billions of dollars on hi-tech French fighter jets+ , but experts say it needs to do a lot more if it is going to face up to an increasingly assertive China.

The world's top defence importer has signed several big-ticket deals as part of a $100-billion upgrade since Prime Minister Narendra Modi took power in 2014.

But it has been slow to replace its dwindling fleet of Russian MiG-21s — dubbed "Flying Coffins" because of their poor safety record.

An agreement to buy 36 cutting edge Rafale jets+ from France's Dassault aims to fix that.

"It will give the air force an arrowhead. Our air force has old aircraft, 1970s and 1980s generation aircraft and for the first time in about 25-30 years we will have a quantum jump in technology," defence analyst Gulshan Luthra told AFP.

"Rafale is loaded with (the) best of the technologies and we need it."

The Air Force says it needs at least 42 squadrons to protect its northern and western borders with Pakistan and China.

It currently has around 32, each comprising 18 aircraft. Air force representatives warned the Parliament last year that the number of squadrons could fall to 25 by 2022, putting India on a par with its nuclear-armed neighbour and arch-rival Pakistan.

But the real concern is China, an ally of Pakistan whose military capacities are way in excess of India's.

"Pakistan we can handle. Pakistan we can muscle our way, but China, no way we can handle," said Luthra. "And if China comes to the aid of Pakistan, then we're stuck."

China and India fought a brief war in 1962, and the border between the neighbours has never been formally demarcated, although they have signed accords to maintain peace.

The Rafale deal, due to be signed in New Delhi on Friday, will supply another two squadrons, although it will be three years before delivery of the jets begins.

It falls way short of previous proposals for India to buy 126 of the jets, which stalled over costs and assembly guarantees.

Currently being used for bombing missions over Syria and Iraq, the Rafale can fly distances of up to 3,800 kilometres (2,360 miles).

Experts say it will allow the air force to strike targets in Pakistan and China from within Indian territory.

But critics argue the Rafale purchase is a costly solution to the problem, even after India bargained hard to get the price down to a reported 7.9 billion euros ($8.8 billion).

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar reportedly said last year the larger Rafale deal was too expensive. "We are not buying the rest. I also feel like having a BMW and Mercedes. But I don't because I can't afford it."

Modi has said he wants to end India's status as the world's number one defence importer and to have 70 per cent of hardware manufactured domestically by the turn of the decade.

His government lifted a cap on foreign investment in defence to 49 per cent last year.

Many now believe India will use the money saved from scrapping the larger Rafale order to invest in its first domestically developed light fighter plane, the Tejas.

The aircraft, touted as the smallest and lightest supersonic fighter aircraft of their class, are designed and manufactured in India, although some components are imported.

Defence analyst Ajai Shukla said the purchase of 36 Rafales would "placate Dassault, the Indian Air Force and public opinion" after the larger deal was scrapped, but did not make good operational sense.

"You don't replace a small, light fighter plane with an extraordinarily expensive heavy monster like Rafale," he said.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-match-China-Experts/articleshow/54466421.cms



*4 reasons why Rafale could ruin Modi and Parrikar's party*


Rediff.com » News » 4 reasons why Rafale could ruin Modi and Parrikar's party
*4 reasons why Rafale could ruin Modi and Parrikar's party*
September 23, 2016 09:47 IST


*Ajai Shukla explains why there is considerable discomfort within the defence ministry about the Rafale deal.*






On a warm Delhi evening on April 3, 2015, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had left his South Block office and was driving to catch his flight to Goa, when his mobile phone received an incoming call from the Prime Minister's Office.

Could he come in urgently, an official asked, the PM would like to talk briefly.

When Parrikar reached the PMO, Prime Minister Narendra Modi sprang a bombshell.

Parrikar was told that, on Modi's forthcoming trip to Paris, he and French President Francois Hollande would announce an agreement for India to buy 36 Rafale fighters.

During Modi's nine-day tour of France, Germany and Canada, Parrikar would have to manage the media and field the inevitable questions.

Taken aback, Parrikar still caught his flight to Goa. Over the next week, he batted loyally on behalf of his PM, publicly defending a decision he neither understood nor agreed with, that was taken over his head, and that senior ministry of defence officials warned him would be difficult to defend.

Today, 17 months later, most pledges that Parrikar issued in defence of Modi's Rafale agreement have proven incorrect.

He told the Press Trust of India in Goa that all 36 Rafale fighters would join the IAF within two years; in fact more than six years will elapse before the final delivery is made.

He repeated the Modi-Hollande undertaking that the price would be 'on terms that would be better than' Dassault's bid in the now cancelled tender for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft. It now turns out that India will pay a vastly higher price.

But Parrikar, through 17 months of defending a deal that was not his, has become the face of the Rafale.

And after Friday, when he and his visiting French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian sign an inter-governmental agreement for 36 Rafales, Parrikar -- and not Modi -- will answer for the purchase.

There is disquiet within the MoD about the acquisition, with officials concerned about subsequent scrutiny by Constitutional authorities like the Comptroller and Auditor General. Their key worries are as follows.

E*xorbitant cost*

A key element in price negotiations is 'benchmarking', or comparing Dassault's price with other contracts involving the same fighter.

With India, Dassault had already established a benchmark in the MMRCA acquisition, where it had quoted a price for 18 fully built Rafales, just like the 36 fighters that India is now buying.

Speaking to Doordarshan on April 13, 2015, Parrikar had revealed Rafale's bid for 126 fighters, stating: 'When you talk of 126 (_Rafale_) aircraft, it becomes a purchase of about Rs 90,000 crore' -- Rs 715 crore per fighter after adding all costs.

Now Parrikar would be buying 36 Rafale fighters for Euro 7.8 billion (over Rs 58,000 crore), which is over Rs 1,600 crore per aircraft -- more than double the earlier price.

True, the current contract includes elements that were not there in the 126 fighter MMRCA tender -- including a superior weapons package with Meteor missiles; and performance-based logistics, which bind Dassault to ensure that a stipulated percentage of the Rafale fleet remains combat-ready at all times. The percentage is guessed to be about 75 to 80 per cent, an unchallenging target for Western fighter types.

Even deducting Euro 2.8 billion for the weapons and PBL from the anticipated Euro 7.8 billion contract amount, a Euro 5 billion (over Rs 37,000 crore) price tag for 36 Rafales puts the ticker price of each at over Rs 1,000 crore.

For that the IAF can buy two-and-a-half Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters -- a heavy fighter as capable as the Rafale.

V*ariation in fighter types*

IAF logisticians, who already struggle to maintain, repair and support six different types of fighters -- the Sukhoi-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21 and the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft -- are hardly welcoming the prospect of a seventh fighter type, which would require expensive, tailor-made base infrastructure, repair depots and spare parts chains.

Air power experts say more Sukhoi-30MKIs would eliminate this need, besides being cheaper.

Alternatively, fast-tracking the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft, which Russia and India intend to co-develop, would eliminate the need for Rafales.

Even if the IAF exercises an option clause for 18 more Rafales, there would be just three operational squadrons, like with the Mirage 2000.

Besides the options clause, nine more Rafales would be needed, since an IAF squadron has 21 fighters.

S*overeign guarantees*

While New Delhi is negotiating the Rafale purchase directly with the private vendor, Dassault, the MoD wants sovereign guarantees from the French government, of the kind that come with American equipment bought through the Foreign Military Sales route.

In a FMS procurement -- India's C-130J Super Hercules purchase -- the US Department of Defence (the Pentagon) sets up a dedicated 'project management team' that negotiates on the buyer's behalf, beating down the price, establishing training and logistics support, and providing assurance that the buyer gets everything needed to operate and maintain the product.

Alongside FMS support, corruption is deterred by the stringent US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which vendors seldom dare to violate. This provides comfort to Indian MoD officials against subsequent allegations raised against a deal.

Paris, in contrast, is only willing to give a lukewarm written assurance of support with the Rafale -- something that the MoD refers to disparagingly as a 'comfort letter.'

P*iecemeal contracting*

India needs some 200 to 300 fighters to replace the MiG-21 and MiG-27 fleet that is being phased out of service. Just 36 Rafales provides little cover, so the IAF hopes to buy not just 18 more under the options clause, but perhaps another tranche later.

MoD officials complain that piecemeal contracting provides little leverage for beating down prices.

The same problem will afflict the procurement of the Gripen NG, or F-16s, which the MoD is weighing as possible options to replace retiring fighters.

With an IGA in the offing, and a formal contract yet to be negotiated, New Delhi would still have the opportunity to address these issues, say MoD officials.

Yet, the IGA on Friday will be celebrated in the IAF as a giant step towards a fighter they have pursued tenaciously for 15 years.

Ajai Shukla


http://www.rediff.com/news/column/f...ld-ruin-modi-and-parrikars-party/20160923.htm


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## Foxbat Alok

I think the experts are unknown from the capabilities of Rafael 
Wese v China maal ka koi bharosa nahi,kab dhoka dede


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## nang2

Foxbat Alok said:


> I think the experts are unknown from the capabilities of Rafael
> Wese v China maal ka koi bharosa nahi,kab dhoka dede


Absolutely, those experts only know how to count, or they just fear-monger to get attentions.

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## Taygibay

Foxbat Alok said:


> Great
> so if am not wrong the deal is
> 1-Dassault has agreed to make India-specific modifications to the planes, allowing the integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays.
> 2-they will provide Meteor air-to-air missile with a beyond-visual-range over 100 km & Strom shadow air-launched cruise missile with a range of over 560 km
> 3-A complete transfer of technology, including for the Thales RBE2-AA radar and software source code, spare parts, maintenance, training, and a guarantee of 75 percent operational availability for the first five years
> & when we get Rafael we will integrate bramhos-NG ,will make the Rafale a lethal platform by land or sea.j



You then are wrong on details only :

1- Dassault has agreed - is meaningless. All manufacturers incl. Ru do so on request.
India has agreed to the price of integration is more like it.

2- Meteor is 115 ++; Storm Shadow is Brit and covered in mint sauce, SCALP_EG is
French and EG means Extra Gupta oeuf corse as in the ultimate protector; but the
range will be 299.999999999 kms not 560.

3- Not quite full ToT as you describe it, mate! That simply doesn't exist and not even
all software source code. For a minor example of what this means In Real Life :
You will be able to make as full a use of Spectra as you can but the threat libraries
will be blank. We won't give you the signatures of our British and American allies'
F22 and Typhoon; you'll need to build those up yourself.

... and a mini-Bhramos won't make the Rafale a lethal platform : it already is/was!



Foxbat Alok said:


> Jai modi
> Jai bharat



4- No errors there.

 G'dday, Tay.

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## VivasvatManu

Taygibay said:


> SCALP_EG is
> French and EG means Extra Gupta oeuf corse as in the ultimate protector; but the
> range will be 299.999999999 kms not 560.



I see no reason why it will not be 560 km since India is a MTCR member, so no more Apartheid.


----------



## Norge Stronk

VivasvatManu said:


> I see no reason why it will not be 560 km since India is a MTCR member, so no more Apartheid.



You guys have this backwards. Being an MTCR member state means adhering to the principles of non-proliferation of weapon delivery systems that can deliver a payload of up to 500kg to a distance of 300km.

It does not permit the export of extended ranged weapons, though joint development is possible.

As noted in this rundown of the MTCR, the US has occasionally granted exceptions, like its proposed same of JASSM-ER to Poland or South Korea's development of ballistic missions with a range and payload greater then the upper limit of the MTCR:






https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/mtcr

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## Taygibay

Check the MCTR club's trending disputes and toughening rules
for an explain of why it won't be the case or at least delayed.
Also re-read the post above this one.

In any case, strategic means that under duress, range would be
ISR [ Indian Stretchable Range ]. Those things happen between partners.

Same thing as with the aforementioned libraries, MKI have the
Rafale's already and vice-versa as our Garuda exercises allow.

Good day, Tay.

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## VivasvatManu

Norge Stronk said:


> You guys have this backwards. Being an MTCR member state means adhering to the principles of non-proliferation of weapon delivery systems that can deliver a payload of up to 500kg to a distance of 300km.
> 
> It does not permit the export of extended ranged weapons, though joint development is possible.
> 
> As noted in this rundown of the MTCR, the US has occasionally granted exceptions, like its proposed same of JASSM-ER to Poland or South Korea's development of ballistic missions with a range and payload greater then the upper limit of the MTCR:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/mtcr



First of all MTCR is NOT a Treaty, so its rules are NOT legally binding on members. 

US has exported tomahawk missiles and Trident missiles to UK despite the MTCR so this 'club membership' is flexible for those who dare challenge it. 

MTCR treaty membership makes it easier for nations to export longer range missiles which otherwise might be not possible by their own state legislation. 

MTCR was primarily signed by India to get US UAV's which can drop bombs and can travel a LOT longer than 300 km 



Taygibay said:


> Check the MCTR club's trending disputes and toughening rules
> for an explain of why it won't be the case or at least delayed.
> Also re-read the post above this one.
> 
> In any case, strategic means that under duress, range would be
> ISR [ Indian Stretchable Range ]. Those things happen between partners.
> 
> Same thing as with the aforementioned libraries, MKI have the
> Rafale's already and vice-versa as our Garuda exercises allow.
> 
> Good day, Tay.



My point is that France has no reason to pretend that the missile range is less than 300 km.


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## Taygibay

VivasvatManu said:


> My point is that France has no reason to pretend that the missile range is less than 300 km.



You really think so? Check this correct statement :



Norge Stronk said:


> ... the US has occasionally granted exceptions, like its proposed sale of JASSM-ER to Poland or South Korea's development of ballistic missions with a range and payload greater then the upper limit of the MTCR.



Those same USA raised a big fuss at our Black Shaheen sale to the UAE
alongside the M2000-9 deal.
That led to a tightening of the rule book.

So yes, compliance has benefits ... even at face value, especially at face value.

Good day, Tay.


----------



## Norge Stronk

VivasvatManu said:


> First of all MTCR is NOT a Treaty, so its rules are NOT legally binding on members.
> 
> US has exported tomahawk missiles and Trident missiles to UK despite the MTCR so this 'club membership' is flexible for those who dare challenge it.
> 
> MTCR treaty membership makes it easier for nations to export longer range missiles which otherwise might be not possible by their own state legislation.
> 
> MTCR was primarily signed by India to get US UAV's which can drop bombs and can travel a LOT longer than 300 km



Time for a history lesson, since you brought up Tomahawk and Trident:

https://defence.pk/threads/china-he...embership-bid-aziz.425048/page-3#post-8213232



Nattmara said:


> You're not right on one point and only partially right on the other. The transfer (sale) of Trident under the Polaris Sales Agreement between the US and UK was not a violation of the MTCR because the early iteration of the MRTC did not cover transfers happening between MTCR member nations:
> 
> _One of the earliest contributions of the MTCR was to set the parameter of a nuclear-capable ballistic missile as one that could carry a 500-kilogram payload to a range of 300 kilometers. Of course, here the regime erred on the side of caution as a first-generation nuclear weapon was likely to weigh closer to 1,000 kilograms. _*These parameters and guidelines were readily accepted by the first generation of MTCR members for two reasons. First, these restrictions did not apply to transfers within the MTCR membership, evident in the U.S. supply of Polaris and Trident ballistic missiles to the United Kingdom*_. Second, in the early 1980s, there was concern that nuclear-capable ballistic missiles or technology supplied by one G-7 country might be used by the recipient against another G-7 country. This worry was highlighted indirectly by Argentina 's use of French Exocet missiles to sink the British destroyer HMS Sheffield and support ship Atlantic Conveyor during the 1982 Falkland Islands War._
> 
> A transfer or sale of new Trident missiles to the UK would fall under the jurisdiction and scrutiny of the MTCR.
> 
> ...
> 
> Depending on the justification given, the NPT may not have been violated either by the US sharing nuclear warheads/warhead making materials or by helping the UK develop such weapons, as an audit found in 2006:
> 
> _The UK National Audit Office noted that most of the UK Trident warhead development and production expenditure was incurred in the US who would supply "certain warhead-related components". Some of the fissile materials for the UK Trident warhead were purchased from the US. There is evidence that the warhead design of the British Trident system is similar to, or even based on, the US W76 warhead fitted in some US Navy Trident missiles, with design and blast model data supplied to the UK_
> 
> The 1958 US-UK Mutual Defense Treaty and the NATO Nuclear Weapons Sharing Agreement both are loopholes, and controversial ones, that circumvent the NPT.
> 
> The former by pre-dating the NPT, and thus not being retroactively covered by it, and later with this argument:
> 
> _At the time the treaty was being negotiated, NATO had in place secret nuclear weapons sharing agreements whereby the United States provided nuclear weapons to be deployed by, and stored in, other NATO states. Some argue this is an act of proliferation violating Articles I and II of the treaty. A counter-argument is that the U.S. controlled the weapons in storage within the NATO states, and that *no transfer of the weapons or control over them was intended* "unless and until a decision were made to go to war, at which the treaty would no longer be controlling", so there is no breach of the NPT.
> _
> Because the UK is technically leasing its Trident D5 and W76 warheads, they are functionally US property and the US came claim no transfer of custody for those weapons, until they are needed. It's the same scenario we see with US B-61s in Turkey.
> 
> @Blue Marlin @mike2000 is back anything to add?



Neither transfer is considered a violation of the MTCR.



Taygibay said:


> So yes, compliance has benefits ... even at face value, especially at face value.



It certainly does. Though France has been known to be a bit of a loose-cannon at times with nuclear and weapons tech proliferation, it does value its partnership and business with the US and world at large. Compliance with the treaties guidelines, though it's not obligated to do so, prevents France from reaping counteraction by the US or other concerned parties.

...

I actually have a hard copy of the MTCR on my desk if anyone would like me to mail it to them. It's a holdover from a cross-training experience I underwent as a negotiating party, where I'm actually an engineer and rarely, only one occurrence, put my contract negotiation training to use.

And for those that don't know, the MTCR is rather relevant in my line of work as well. Though mainly noted as a missile and UAV proliferation deterrence measure, it actually does cover AUVs as well if their capabilities are beyond a specific threshold. I develop AIs for AUVs and write control code for their systems.

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## VivasvatManu

Taygibay said:


> You really think so? Check this correct statement :
> 
> Those same USA raised a big fuss at our Black Shaheen sale to the UAE
> alongside the M2000-9 deal.
> That led to a tightening of the rule book.
> 
> So yes, compliance has benefits ... even at face value, especially at face value.
> 
> Good day, Tay.



The US is unlikely to raise a fuss w.r.t India since it is already planning to sell longer range UAV and armed drones to India. 

Still if France is scared of the US, then i guess they can always lie. It just not necessary in this case.



Norge Stronk said:


> Time for a history lesson, since you brought up Tomahawk and Trident:
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/china-he...embership-bid-aziz.425048/page-3#post-8213232
> 
> Neither transfer is considered a violation of the MTCR.
> 
> It certainly does. Though France has been known to be a bit of a loose-cannon at times with nuclear and weapons tech proliferation, it does value its partnership and business with the US and world at large. Compliance with the treaties guidelines, though it's not obligated to do so, prevents France from reaping counteraction by the US or other concerned parties.
> 
> ...
> 
> I actually have a hard copy of the MTCR on my desk if anyone would like me to mail it to them. It's a holdover from a cross-training experience I underwent as a negotiating party, where I'm actually an engineer and rarely, only one occurrence, put my contract negotiation training to use.
> 
> And for those that don't know, the MTCR is rather relevant in my line of work as well. Though mainly noted as a missile and UAV proliferation deterrence measure, it actually does cover AUVs as well if their capabilities are beyond a specific threshold. I develop AIs for AUVs and write control code for their systems.



The particular details are irreverent since My primary point has been conceded by you. 

The argument is always that , now the 'rules' have been modified, or, there was a loop hole exploited etc.

Its similar to how the Russians 'leased' us a nuclear submarine. ...... and how US kept quite while China transferred Nukes to pakistan. 

Political expedience IS the RULES of the game, not some silly treaty or club membership. Those are for weak nations. 

The strong nations always play by their own rules. So what applies for YOUR nation does not necessarily apply to India.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Rafale deal confirmed: An overview of its history and what this means for India*
Jaideep Prabhu Sep 22, 2016 8:11 IST






As news broke late Wednesday evening that India and France had finally agreed upon the terms and conditions for the purchase of 36 Rafale jets by the former from the latter, it was probably greeted with relief rather than joy. Dassault, the French aviation company that manufactures the Rafale, had won the tender in January 2012 but had been locked in negotiations with the Indian government over the technical details ever since. When Narendra Modi came to office, he tried to break the impasse and India initiated talks directly with the French government for an inter-government agreement but even that, until just a month ago, seemed to be going nowhere. The conclusion of the deal, to be signed on 23 September, will be a relief to the Indian Air Force as well as Dassault. The first planes will begin to arrive 36 months hence and the entire order will be completed a further 30 months from then.

In fact, India's search for a medium multi-role combat aircraft had begun almost a decade ago in August 2007 when finances finally allowed the IAF to begin replacing its aging fleet of MiGs. Four companies participated in the competition - Saab, Mikoyan, Lockheed and of course, Dassault. The Rafale's similarities to the Mirage 2000 that the IAF already operated, its lower life-cycle costs, and its naval and nuclear strike variants clinched the deal for Dassault.

Although the deal was originally envisaged to be for 126 aircraft with an option of 74 more, the final agreement has settled around 36 jets. Projected to cost $12 billion in 2012, that figure has also come down to $7.88 billion. However, India has managed to negotiate for several bells and whistles in the smaller deal and it is reported that the agreed upon price is around $750 million less than what the previous government was willing to pay.

*Dassault has agreed to make India-specific modifications to the planes, allowing the integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays. Additionally, MBDA, the European missile manufacturer, will provide Meteor, an air-to-air missile with a beyond-visual-range over 100 km, and Storm Shadow (known as Système de Croisière Autonome à Longue Portée – Emploi Général or SCALP in the French military), an air-launched cruise missile with a range of over 560 km, with the Rafales. Both these acquisitions will significantly improve the reach of the IAF, allowing them to shoot deep into enemy airspace or territory without crossing any international boundaries. Integration of the Brahmos-NG, a smaller version of the Brahmos supersonic missile, will make the Rafale a lethal platform by land or sea.*

*A complete transfer of technology, including for the Thales RBE2-AA radar and software source code, *spare parts, maintenance, training, and a guarantee of 75 percent operational availability for the first five years takes the price of the package up from a base price of $3.8 billion for just the Rafales to the final number. A 50 percent offset agreement obligates Dassault to re-invest half the money from the deal in India again, creating hundreds of new jobs.

India's decision to buy only 36 planes, barely two squadrons, seems puzzling at first. They will not fill the gap in the IAF's numbers and nor will the Rafale's nuclear capability add much to the Indian offensive toolkit. *One can only assume that once the first set of jets are delivered, a further order will be placed to augment the existing numbers, including naval variants. This is even more likely if Dassault begins to manufacture in India - with the transfer of technology, it would be easy to domestically ramp up numbers as India has done with the Sukhoi. 

The Rafale's primary role is to replace the IAF's retiring fleet: while the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is expected to step in at the low end, the Rafale will occupy the mid-level force structure with the expectation that an advanced indigenous descendant of the Tejas or the fifth generation fighter that India is jointly developing with Russia will form the top of the line component.*

Immediately, the Rafale is expected to give India the dominant status in the air. Wedded to airborne control systems, the Rafale and its armaments can essentially hit enemy targets while staying out of range of their fighter jets. Though not the essential component of a future cross-border strike, the Rafale can provide the additional firepower if needed. As the IAF's description of the tender suggests, the Rafale is a multi-role platform that can be deployed for air dominance, ground support, aerial reconnaissance, and nuclear delivery. The Rafale has already been used in all these capacities - except the last, of course - in Afghanistan, Libya, Mali, and Iraq and maintained a high operational rate throughout.

Neither the Rafale nor any other weapons system will give the side possessing it the ultimate advantage in battle and such expectations are foolish. Nonetheless, the Rafale, when it arrives, will substantially augment the Indian Air Force's capabilities in several mission profiles and put India's hostile neighbours on notice. *An additional acquisition of domestically manufactured Rafales post-2021 would buy the Indian defence establishment time to complete its advanced fighter aircraft for the IAF.* For an enervated service, the arrival of the Rafales will be a breath of fresh air.

http://m.firstpost.com/world/rafale...ry-and-what-this-means-for-india-3014872.html
+++
Interesting what it said here.. most of the points are covered already. Why its significant for me to post here is bcz its a firstpost article.

It talks about IAF+IN mix which i said here before
It talks about MII possibly
*This is even more likely if Dassault begins to manufacture in India - with the transfer of technology, it would be easy to domestically ramp up numbers as India has done with the Sukhoi. *

Lastly it said one specific line
*An additional acquisition of domestically manufactured Rafales post-2021 would buy the Indian defence establishment time to complete its advanced fighter aircraft for the IAF*

To understand this line significance one has to understand what could be the timeline to have this work really.





https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-346#post-8697204


Indeed if what article is hinting as a possibility is what i have said so many times here. 
The comparison with the fleet being ramped up as done with Su 30MKI is also significant bcz we know what kind of big numbers we have finally of MKI
Lets see how it unfolds.

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Spectre @hellfire @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @Armani @Taygibay @R!CK @GuardianRED @randomradio @BON PLAN @nair @[Bregs]

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Rafale deal confirmed: An overview of its history and what this means for India*
> Jaideep Prabhu Sep 22, 2016 8:11 IST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As news broke late Wednesday evening that India and France had finally agreed upon the terms and conditions for the purchase of 36 Rafale jets by the former from the latter, it was probably greeted with relief rather than joy. Dassault, the French aviation company that manufactures the Rafale, had won the tender in January 2012 but had been locked in negotiations with the Indian government over the technical details ever since. When Narendra Modi came to office, he tried to break the impasse and India initiated talks directly with the French government for an inter-government agreement but even that, until just a month ago, seemed to be going nowhere. The conclusion of the deal, to be signed on 23 September, will be a relief to the Indian Air Force as well as Dassault. The first planes will begin to arrive 36 months hence and the entire order will be completed a further 30 months from then.
> 
> In fact, India's search for a medium multi-role combat aircraft had begun almost a decade ago in August 2007 when finances finally allowed the IAF to begin replacing its aging fleet of MiGs. Four companies participated in the competition - Saab, Mikoyan, Lockheed and of course, Dassault. The Rafale's similarities to the Mirage 2000 that the IAF already operated, its lower life-cycle costs, and its naval and nuclear strike variants clinched the deal for Dassault.
> 
> Although the deal was originally envisaged to be for 126 aircraft with an option of 74 more, the final agreement has settled around 36 jets. Projected to cost $12 billion in 2012, that figure has also come down to $7.88 billion. However, India has managed to negotiate for several bells and whistles in the smaller deal and it is reported that the agreed upon price is around $750 million less than what the previous government was willing to pay.
> 
> *Dassault has agreed to make India-specific modifications to the planes, allowing the integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays. Additionally, MBDA, the European missile manufacturer, will provide Meteor, an air-to-air missile with a beyond-visual-range over 100 km, and Storm Shadow (known as Système de Croisière Autonome à Longue Portée – Emploi Général or SCALP in the French military), an air-launched cruise missile with a range of over 560 km, with the Rafales. Both these acquisitions will significantly improve the reach of the IAF, allowing them to shoot deep into enemy airspace or territory without crossing any international boundaries. Integration of the Brahmos-NG, a smaller version of the Brahmos supersonic missile, will make the Rafale a lethal platform by land or sea.*
> 
> *A complete transfer of technology, including for the Thales RBE2-AA radar and software source code, *spare parts, maintenance, training, and a guarantee of 75 percent operational availability for the first five years takes the price of the package up from a base price of $3.8 billion for just the Rafales to the final number. A 50 percent offset agreement obligates Dassault to re-invest half the money from the deal in India again, creating hundreds of new jobs.
> 
> India's decision to buy only 36 planes, barely two squadrons, seems puzzling at first. They will not fill the gap in the IAF's numbers and nor will the Rafale's nuclear capability add much to the Indian offensive toolkit. *One can only assume that once the first set of jets are delivered, a further order will be placed to augment the existing numbers, including naval variants. This is even more likely if Dassault begins to manufacture in India - with the transfer of technology, it would be easy to domestically ramp up numbers as India has done with the Sukhoi.
> 
> The Rafale's primary role is to replace the IAF's retiring fleet: while the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is expected to step in at the low end, the Rafale will occupy the mid-level force structure with the expectation that an advanced indigenous descendant of the Tejas or the fifth generation fighter that India is jointly developing with Russia will form the top of the line component.*
> 
> Immediately, the Rafale is expected to give India the dominant status in the air. Wedded to airborne control systems, the Rafale and its armaments can essentially hit enemy targets while staying out of range of their fighter jets. Though not the essential component of a future cross-border strike, the Rafale can provide the additional firepower if needed. As the IAF's description of the tender suggests, the Rafale is a multi-role platform that can be deployed for air dominance, ground support, aerial reconnaissance, and nuclear delivery. The Rafale has already been used in all these capacities - except the last, of course - in Afghanistan, Libya, Mali, and Iraq and maintained a high operational rate throughout.
> 
> Neither the Rafale nor any other weapons system will give the side possessing it the ultimate advantage in battle and such expectations are foolish. Nonetheless, the Rafale, when it arrives, will substantially augment the Indian Air Force's capabilities in several mission profiles and put India's hostile neighbours on notice. *An additional acquisition of domestically manufactured Rafales post-2021 would buy the Indian defence establishment time to complete its advanced fighter aircraft for the IAF.* For an enervated service, the arrival of the Rafales will be a breath of fresh air.
> 
> http://m.firstpost.com/world/rafale...ry-and-what-this-means-for-india-3014872.html
> +++
> Interesting what it said here.. most of the points are covered already. Why its significant for me to post here is bcz its a firstpost article.
> 
> It talks about IAF+IN mix which i said here before
> It talks about MII possibly
> *This is even more likely if Dassault begins to manufacture in India - with the transfer of technology, it would be easy to domestically ramp up numbers as India has done with the Sukhoi. *
> 
> Lastly it said one specific line
> *An additional acquisition of domestically manufactured Rafales post-2021 would buy the Indian defence establishment time to complete its advanced fighter aircraft for the IAF*
> 
> To understand this line significance one has to understand what could be the timeline to have this work really.
> 
> View attachment 336922
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-346#post-8697204
> 
> 
> Indeed if what article is hinting as a possibility is what i have said so many times here.
> The comparison with the fleet being ramped up as done with Su 30MKI is also significant bcz we know what kind of big numbers we have finally of MKI
> Lets see how it unfolds.
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Spectre @hellfire @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @Armani @Taygibay @R!CK @GuardianRED @randomradio @BON PLAN @nair @[Bregs]


So simply putting it, the time between now and when the final French built rafale lands in india. The ground works for local production would be almost complete (local vendors), thus IF a new deal is signed, the time taken to complete a Indian Built Rafale is small and rapid!

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## #hydra#

Taygibay said:


> You then are wrong on details only :
> 
> 1- Dassault has agreed - is meaningless. All manufacturers incl. Ru do so on request.
> India has agreed to the price of integration is more like it.
> 
> 2- Meteor is 115 ++; Storm Shadow is Brit and covered in mint sauce, SCALP_EG is
> French and EG means Extra Gupta oeuf corse as in the ultimate protector; but the
> range will be 299.999999999 kms not 560.
> 
> 3- Not quite full ToT as you describe it, mate! That simply doesn't exist and not even
> all software source code. For a minor example of what this means In Real Life :
> You will be able to make as full a use of Spectra as you can but the threat libraries
> will be blank. We won't give you the signatures of our British and American allies'
> F22 and Typhoon; you'll need to build those up yourself.
> 
> ... and a mini-Bhramos won't make the Rafale a lethal platform : it already is/was!
> 
> 
> 
> 4- No errors there.
> 
> G'dday, Tay.


F22 signatures, u r kidding right.... Ohk let's assume that frenchmen got f22 signatures while joint exercise,will rafale be able to detect f22 before being shoot down in bvr by raptor?

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## PARIKRAMA

#hydra# said:


> F22 signatures, u r kidding right.... Ohk let's assume that frenchmen got f22 signatures while joint exercise,will Rafale be able to detect f22 before being shoot down in bvr by raptor?


Spectra when was launched and integrated into active missions did not have any signature in its library. Indeed even if the capabilities of some of the fighters are compromised under exercise conditions, i wont be surprised if Spectra library has added such emissions recorded during extensive exercises and in certain times with no capability downgrade. In a similar way, even USA would have got a good look in into Rafale to understand where their own _jack of all trades, master of none_ F35 stands vs a vs the Rafales and EFs.

Its a very famous case that in one of the joint exercise a Rafale pilot was very keen to add the emission signature of Su30 MKI in order to get tactical advantage. Its nothing bad as India is going to get a part in Spectra itself and will share their own library collections due to a very diversified fleet it operates and also due to number of joint exercises it does with multiple other candidates. if it does not do that, Spectra library for IAF will come blank and will need efforts for at least 3-5 years to build up this library and get its jet to every known place in joint exercise



Vergennes said:


> @Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @anant_s @R!CK @randomradio @nair @ranjeet @hellfire @GuardianRED etc.
> 
> Not adding that the Rafale deal would boost the trade between India and France which amounted to €8,548 Bn last year. (According to government figures)
> 
> France's exports to India amounted to *€3,176Bn* in 2015. (Out of *€654Bn* of exports)
> India's exports to France amounted to *€5,372Bn* in 2015. (Out of *€685Bn* of imports.)


Sir, I think its Mn

This link gives a very good detail and its official
http://www.ambinde.fr/economic-and-commerce/india-france-relations/india-france-commercial-relations

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> Spectra when was launched and integrated into active missions did not have any signature in its library. Indeed even if the capabilities of some of the fighters are compromised under exercise conditions, i wont be surprised if Spectra library has not added such emissions recorded during extensive exercises and in certain times with no capability downgrade. In a similar way, even USA would have got a good look in into Rafale to understand where their own _jack of all trades, master of none_ F35 stands vs a vs the Rafales and EFs.
> 
> Its a very famous case that in one of the joint exercise a Rafale pilot was very keen to add the emission signature of Su30 MKI in order to get tactical advantage. Its nothing bad as India is going to get a part in Spectra itself and will share their own library collections due to a very diversified fleet it operates and also due to number of joint exercises it does with multiple other candidates. if it does not do that, Spectra library for IAF will come blank and will need efforts for at least 3-5 ears to build up this library and get its jet to every known place in joint exercise
> 
> 
> Sir, I think its Mn
> 
> This link gives a very good detail and its official
> http://www.ambinde.fr/economic-and-commerce/india-france-relations/india-france-commercial-relations



Hello Sir ; in the current environment ; there is no real excitement about Rafale 

Everybody wants to know about what and when something will happen

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## indo

What about the 1 billion investment in kaveri program. Is it still on ? @PARIKRAMA

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## #hydra#

PARIKRAMA said:


> Spectra when was launched and integrated into active missions did not have any signature in its library. Indeed even if the capabilities of some of the fighters are compromised under exercise conditions, i wont be surprised if Spectra library has added such emissions recorded during extensive exercises and in certain times with no capability downgrade. In a similar way, even USA would have got a good look in into Rafale to understand where their own _jack of all trades, master of none_ F35 stands vs a vs the Rafales and EFs.
> 
> Its a very famous case that in one of the joint exercise a Rafale pilot was very keen to add the emission signature of Su30 MKI in order to get tactical advantage. Its nothing bad as India is going to get a part in Spectra itself and will share their own library collections due to a very diversified fleet it operates and also due to number of joint exercises it does with multiple other candidates. if it does not do that, Spectra library for IAF will come blank and will need efforts for at least 3-5 years to build up this library and get its jet to every known place in joint exercise
> 
> 
> Sir, I think its Mn
> 
> This link gives a very good detail and its official
> http://www.ambinde.fr/economic-and-commerce/india-france-relations/india-france-commercial-relations


But AFAIK uncle Sam used to send 22s in exercise by deliberately increasing its radar cross section. Then how the French acquired data will help in tackling 22s.

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> Sir, I think its Mn





Vergennes said:


> Here's the data from the french customs services.
> 
> View attachment 336931
> 
> You can find it here  ;
> 
> http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/po...s-economiques-pays-par-pays/asie/article/inde



The French use comma as a decimal point. That creates problems for us.

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## Stephen Cohen

randomradio said:


> The French use comma as a decimal point. That creates problems for us.



Then Let us delay the signing and check the documents again 

BC ; baad me pata chala CHUNA laga diya to gayi BJP

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## Vergennes

randomradio said:


> The French use comma as a decimal point. That creates problems for us.





Stephen Cohen said:


> Then Let us delay the signing and check the documents again
> 
> BC ; baad me pata chala CHUNA laga diya to gayi BJP



Ok,let's forget my posts that lead to confusion and enjoy nice Rafale pics/videos before the signature ! 










































@PARIKRAMA @ranjeet @Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar @Ankit Kumar 002 @anant_s @GuardianRED @Nilgiri @mkb95 @mirage @hellfire @SrNair @R!CK @proud_indian @Armani @surya kiran @thesolar65 @itachii @Nilgiri etc.

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## GuardianRED

Vergennes said:


> Ok,let's forget my posts that lead to confusion and enjoy nice Rafale pics/videos before the signature !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 336944
> 
> View attachment 336945
> 
> View attachment 336946
> 
> 
> View attachment 336952
> 
> 
> View attachment 336948
> 
> View attachment 336949
> 
> View attachment 336950
> 
> View attachment 336951
> 
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @ranjeet @Abingdonboy @Ankit Kumar @Ankit Kumar 002 @anant_s @GuardianRED @Nilgiri @mkb95 @mirage @hellfire @SrNair @R!CK @proud_indian @Armani @surya kiran @thesolar65 @itachii @Nilgiri etc.


Simply Amazing! Thanks  (just realize that the Flight stick is to the Left)

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## Nilgiri

Mostly in French but lots of info in this video, if anyone wants translation of any part...just give me or the others the timestamp (or use auto generate subs at your risk ):






@Vergennes @Taygibay

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## Taygibay

GuardianRED said:


> thus IF a new deal is signed, the time taken to complete a Indian Built Rafale is small and rapid!



Best case, same as in France : 2+ years from first piece to final product.



#hydra# said:


> F22 signatures, u r kidding right.... Ohk let's assume that frenchmen got f22 signatures while joint exercise,will rafale be able to detect f22 before being shoot down in bvr by raptor?



The two fighters know each other well enough. The TriLat ex, Al-Dhafra '09 and,
in the beginning the one below.
And that thing to make a Raptor bigger on radar is a Luneburg lens or RCS enhancer.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Its a very famous case that in one of the joint exercise a Rafale pilot was very keen to add the emission signature of Su30 MKI in order to get tactical advantage.


Yes and the first time Raffys recorded MKI and vice-versa was Red Flag 2008-04
which is also where & when the Raptor was a surprise first encounter for us.
All encounters face to face in this instance.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Sir, I think its Mn



In 2015, the total trade in goods between France and India was worth € 8.54 billion, registering an increase of 7.91% from 2014. India’s exports to France were valued at € 5.37 billion (+2.96%) whereas French exports to India totalled € 3.17 billion (+17.47%).

From the link to the Indian embassy you gave, and so yes, trillions of €.

Good day all, Tay.

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## Nilgiri

@PARIKRAMA Many Continental Europeans use comma instead of period to mark decimal point  Just FYI

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## Armani

Nilgiri said:


> @PARIKRAMA Many Continental Europeans use comma instead of period to mark decimal point  Just FYI



I knew a guy from Croatia who used to (still does sometimes) post in other forums. I thought the coma was just his personal style - I liked it though, so never really went to analyse why that is so.

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## halloweene

GuardianRED said:


> Simply Amazing! Thanks  (just realize that the Flight stick is to the Left)


Not exactly. It is power stick.







Btw, we deliberately changed a few things (like adding a map on the tactical situation screen, but you may enjoy this...

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Best case, same as in France : 2+ years from first piece to final product.



I assumed the same, but Picdel pointed out it takes 3 years to manufacture the Rafale.



> The two fighters know each other well enough. The TriLat ex, Al-Dhafra '09 and,
> in the beginning the one below.
> And that thing to make a Raptor bigger on radar is a Luneburg lens or RCS enhancer.



The IAF exercised with the F-22s in May this year. Most likely with the Luneburg lens, but I'm not sure.


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## PARIKRAMA

Okies here is the confirmation


Le Drian meeting DM MP at 1230 pm
A delegation level talks will happen and in all probability the famous side case of MII will come up as well.
it is expected that a specific message is being carried by DM Le Drian from Prez Hollande and indications as per sources is a much larger commitment to Rafales and for India France Defence Partnership
At 3 PM Rafale deal will be officially signed.
A press meet after that is planned
Enjoy, will try getting pointers from delegation meeting

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others

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## Bullet#500

That's a no brainier and any one denying that is living in fools paradise. China is already an economic super power and on its way to becoming a military super power within a decade. We have no answer to china except getting in bed with uncle Sam.

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## R!CK

PARIKRAMA said:


> Okies here is the confirmation
> 
> 
> Le Drian meeting DM MP at 1230 pm
> A delegation level talks will happen and in all probability the famous side case of MII will come up as well.
> it is expected that a specific message is being carried by DM Le Drian from Prez Hollande and indications as per sources is a much larger commitment to Rafales and for India France Defence Partnership
> At 3 PM Rafale deal will be officially signed.
> A press meet after that is planned
> Enjoy, will try getting pointers from delegation meeting
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others



Once the deal is signed, we must all chip-in and buy 1 Rafale for @PARIKRAMA as a token of appreciation for his efforts. Lol 

Good Day!

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## shree835

nang2 said:


> Absolutely, those experts only know how to count, or they just fear-monger to get attentions.



CHINI Guy...This is Just a beginning...Just wait and watch.

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## surya kiran

PARIKRAMA said:


> Enjoy, will try getting pointers from delegation meeting



The only thing I am interested in, like a baniya, is which listed company is going to be confirmed partner. Want to buy shares.

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## VivasvatManu

R!CK said:


> Once the deal is signed, we must all chip-in and buy 1 Rafale for @PARIKRAMA as a token of appreciation for his efforts. Lol
> 
> Good Day!



Here you go,

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## A_Poster

I was just waiting for bhaade-ke-tattu like Kahonapyarhai or Ashok321 to strike, once Rafael deal was struck.


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## PARIKRAMA

Some interesting pointers from our friend @vstol.

Thanks to him we have another confirmation of certain price range of the product line





The chief pointers

3.2b for 36 Rafale, unit fly away cost becomes 95m/ac.
1.8b for associated supplies
1.7b for integrating India specific weapons.
700m for weapons.
350m for spares. (All figures in Euros)
This means that any further Rafale thru MII will come atleast 10m cheap on unit fly away cost. The other costs are one time costs and will not be applied proportionally to any further purchase of Rafale.
The deal as brokered by UPA was for about 22b for 126 aircraft of which 18 were supposed to come from France. The equivalent deal price for the renegotiated deal is now:-
7.8b for first 36 Rafale
90 Rafele @ 110m/ac average price after adjusting for escalation of 3.5%/annum for next seven years amounting to 9.9b.
TOTAL FOR 126 AIRCRAFT 7.8+9.9=17.7B. 

A SAVING OF OVER 4.3B OVER WHAT WAS NEGOTIATED BY UPA. 
From this saved amount we can buy S-400. So basically we are getting Rafale and S-400 for the same price for which UPA had negotiated only Rafale.
The benefits and savings if Kaveri gets going thru offsets will amount to over USD8b over 25 yr period. 
The benefits from other 15 techs out of total 16 contracted as part of offsets notwithstanding.

Pls connect to earlier post





https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-327#post-8688450

++

and now the super part





++

I have casually hinted to some of the newspapers to go through their own sources to check about MII deal news and very soon if they hit the right places (which i think one newspaper will hit as its very close) , the deal of MII will be revealed in public domain itself.

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> Some interesting pointers from our friend @vstol.
> 
> Thanks to him we have another confirmation of certain price range of the product line
> 
> View attachment 337026
> 
> The chief pointers
> 
> 3.2b for 36 Rafale, unit fly away cost becomes 95m/ac.
> 1.8b for associated supplies
> 1.7b for integrating India specific weapons.
> 700m for weapons.
> 350m for spares. (All figures in Euros)
> This means that any further Rafale thru MII will come atleast 10m cheap on unit fly away cost. The other costs are one time costs and will not be applied proportionally to any further purchase of Rafale.
> The deal as brokered by UPA was for about 22b for 126 aircraft of which 18 were supposed to come from France. The equivalent deal price for the renegotiated deal is now:-
> 7.8b for first 36 Rafale
> 90 Rafele @ 110m/ac average price after adjusting for escalation of 3.5%/annum for next seven years amounting to 9.9b.
> TOTAL FOR 126 AIRCRAFT 7.8+9.9=17.7B.
> 
> A SAVING OF OVER 4.3B OVER WHAT WAS NEGOTIATED BY UPA.
> From this saved amount we can buy S-400. So basically we are getting Rafale and S-400 for the same price for which UPA had negotiated only Rafale.
> The benefits and savings if Kaveri gets going thru offsets will amount to over USD8b over 25 yr period.
> The benefits from other 15 techs out of total 16 contracted as part of offsets notwithstanding.
> 
> Pls connect to earlier post
> View attachment 337029
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-327#post-8688450
> 
> ++
> 
> and now the super part
> 
> View attachment 337033
> 
> ++
> 
> I have casually hinted to some of the newspapers to go through their own sources to check about MII deal news and very soon if they hit the right places (which i think one newspaper will hit as its very close) , the deal of MII will be revealed in public domain itself.



Great thanks buddy. I was waiting for good quality condensed information rather than all the brouhaha out in the media and certain analysts.

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## VivasvatManu

PARIKRAMA said:


> Some interesting pointers from our friend @vstol.
> 
> Thanks to him we have another confirmation of certain price range of the product line
> 
> View attachment 337026
> 
> The chief pointers
> 
> 3.2b for 36 Rafale, unit fly away cost becomes 95m/ac.
> 1.8b for associated supplies
> 1.7b for integrating India specific weapons.
> 700m for weapons.
> 350m for spares. (All figures in Euros)
> This means that any further Rafale thru MII will come atleast 10m cheap on unit fly away cost. The other costs are one time costs and will not be applied proportionally to any further purchase of Rafale.
> The deal as brokered by UPA was for about 22b for 126 aircraft of which 18 were supposed to come from France. The equivalent deal price for the renegotiated deal is now:-
> 7.8b for first 36 Rafale
> 90 Rafele @ 110m/ac average price after adjusting for escalation of 3.5%/annum for next seven years amounting to 9.9b.
> TOTAL FOR 126 AIRCRAFT 7.8+9.9=17.7B.
> 
> A SAVING OF OVER 4.3B OVER WHAT WAS NEGOTIATED BY UPA.
> From this saved amount we can buy S-400. So basically we are getting Rafale and S-400 for the same price for which UPA had negotiated only Rafale.
> The benefits and savings if Kaveri gets going thru offsets will amount to over USD8b over 25 yr period.
> The benefits from other 15 techs out of total 16 contracted as part of offsets notwithstanding.
> 
> Pls connect to earlier post
> View attachment 337029
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-327#post-8688450
> 
> ++
> 
> and now the super part
> 
> View attachment 337033
> 
> ++
> 
> I have casually hinted to some of the newspapers to go through their own sources to check about MII deal news and very soon if they hit the right places (which i think one newspaper will hit as its very close) , the deal of MII will be revealed in public domain itself.



I assume the 180 mentioned in the post EXCLUDES Naval Rafale ?

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## Skull and Bones

@PARIKRAMA 

If the option for 126 goes through, where does that put the prospect for Gripens?

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## PARIKRAMA

- Thats as close you will get to see the real thing

 @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others

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## noksss

Ajai Shukla at it again
http://www.rediff.com/news/column/f...ld-ruin-modi-and-parrikars-party/20160923.htm

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## PARIKRAMA

VivasvatManu said:


> I assume the 180 mentioned in the post EXCLUDES Naval Rafale ?


at least 54 from Merignac for IN and more from Indian Line later.
In his posts he states
_The deal is already sealed for firm 180 aircraft of which upto 54 will come from France and rest will be thru MII. Also, India will not have to spend even a penny to set up the assemblyline. Fance will pay for it and make Rafale in India. We will buy from this assemblyline._

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## VivasvatManu

PARIKRAMA said:


> at least 54 from Merignac for IN and more from Indian Line later.
> In his posts he states
> _The deal is already sealed for firm 180 aircraft of which upto 54 will come from France and rest will be thru MII. Also, India will not have to spend even a penny to set up the assemblyline. Fance will pay for it and make Rafale in India. We will buy from this assemblyline._



The 54 mentioned appears to be the 36+18 in the initial contract. Not the Naval Rafale. Hence the Q.

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## monitor

PARIKRAMA said:


> at least 54 from Merignac for IN and more from Indian Line later.
> In his posts he states
> _The deal is already sealed for firm 180 aircraft of which upto 54 will come from France and rest will be thru MII. Also, India will not have to spend even a penny to set up the assemblyline. Fance will pay for it and make Rafale in India. We will buy from this assemblyline._



Then what about TOT? France will just make rafale inside India using Indian workforce and sell to India and probably other countries?

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## PARIKRAMA

Skull and Bones said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> If the option for 126 goes through, where does that put the prospect for Gripens?


They have to give a revised offer.. that will take time.. The discussion for LWF replacement or add on to CLA will happen but after a certain review post Airforce day.
LCA 4 in numbers were suppose to fly from Hindon base on IAF day and now only 2 and 1 static model will be there. This will lead to certain process where IAF and DM MP will review and prepare ground work. The present Tejas plan to upgrade the capacity of production itself will be delayed to early 2020s. So yes Gripen E or other LWF fighters will get a look in for this specific reason. The turf war and HAL not allowing L&T to set up the production line will boomerang soon.



VivasvatManu said:


> The 54 mentioned appears to be the 36+18 in the initial contract. Not the Naval Rafale. Hence the Q.


As far as i know and what i have heard is 

36+18 IAF + 36+18 IN - Merignac line
minimum 2X the Merignac line order from India.
All this will be in 5-6 tranches.
IAF may not get the 18 in case it is allotted to IN then yes its a possibility it will be 36+54 = 90 and 2X that figure so 180 from MII



monitor said:


> Then what about TOT? France will just make rafale inside India using Indian workforce and sell to India and probably other countries?


15 critical tech is already shared including Radar, Spectra, propulsion systems of Missile, Ram coating, aerodynamic modelling of Indian projects, help in Indian Military R&D etc tec.
The MII line will lead to MIC ecosystem creation and readying for the 5th gen AMCA where again French side will contribute handsomely

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## VivasvatManu

PARIKRAMA said:


> As far as i know and what i have heard is
> 
> 36+18 IAF + 36+18 IN - Merignac line
> minimum 2X the Merignac line order from India.
> All this will be in 5-6 tranches.
> IAF may not get the 18 in case it is allotted to IN then yes its a possibility it will be 36+54 = 90 and 2X that figure so 180 from MII



That makes sense. But also points to the fact that any assembly line for 90 aircrafts will not have too much MII component in it. It will end up as screwdrive tech. and CAG is going to have a field day in the future picking holes in the Offset.

So BJP third term will be 'offset' by this future CAG scandal.

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## cerberus

PARIKRAMA said:


> They have to give a revised offer.. that will take time.. The discussion for LWF replacement or add on to CLA will happen but after a certain review post Airforce day.
> LCA 4 in numbers were suppose to fly from Hindon base on IAF day and now only 2 and 1 static model will be there. This will lead to certain process where IAF and DM MP will review and prepare ground work. The present Tejas plan to upgrade the capacity of production itself will be delayed to early 2020s. So yes Gripen E or other LWF fighters will get a look in for this specific reason. The turf war and HAL not allowing L&T to set up the production line will boomerang soon.
> 
> 
> As far as i know and what i have heard is
> 
> 36+18 IAF + 36+18 IN - Merignac line
> minimum 2X the Merignac line order from India.
> All this will be in 5-6 tranches.
> IAF may not get the 18 in case it is allotted to IN then yes its a possibility it will be 36+54 = 90 and 2X that figure so 180 from MII
> 
> 
> 15 critical tech is already shared including Radar, Spectra, propulsion systems of Missile, Ram coating, aerodynamic modelling of Indian projects, help in Indian Military R&D etc tec.
> The MII line will lead to MIC ecosystem creation and readying for the 5th gen AMCA where again French side will contribute handsomely


Basically what we see is that IAF will replace its entire jaguar fleet with rafale

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## debspark90

PARIKRAMA said:


>


OMG OMG OMG OMG...

Thanks @PARIKRAMA. You always rock

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## Grevion

Nilgiri said:


> @PARIKRAMA Many Continental Europeans use comma instead of period to mark decimal point  Just FYI


Look who's back.


R!CK said:


> Once the deal is signed, we must all chip-in and buy 1 Rafale for @PARIKRAMA as a token of appreciation for his efforts. Lol
> 
> Good Day!


For that all of us needs to be a millionaire. Sorry @PARIKRAMA we can get you this instead




Not in the same colours.

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## cerberus

@PARIKRAMA after deal sign we will make a different thread because it now no more discussion

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## Nilgiri

litefire said:


> Not in the same colours.



@Kashmiri Pandit can have that one in the picture

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## Grevion

Nilgiri said:


> @Kashmiri Pandit can have that one in the picture


Yeah. We can extract millions from him.
Japanese animation and pink, he will die for it.

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## #hydra#

Apart from rafale we are going for pakfa too and possibly amca also.

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## migflug

Deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets between India and France signed; deal is worth 7.8 billion euros.
3 mins ago - Twitter


FLASH: Deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets between India and France signed.




India, France sign #RafaleDeal. India to get 36 fighter jets. First jet to be delivered in 36 months

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## PARIKRAMA

Done deal

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## zambino

Ho gaya!!!!! Naacho BC!

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## cerberus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/779216649983369216

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## PARIKRAMA

*Now some more good news*

*Sale of Rafale Dassault Aviation "is preparing for a big future" in India*
8:31, 23 September 2016, amended to 8:43, September 23, 2016

After several years of export difficulties, the French Rafale found buyers from India. A first partnership could call others.




INTERVIEW
*"We are preparing for a great future in India," said Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation *micro Europe 1 on Friday. Well as aircraft tip, the French Rafale have long been shunned by buyers. But that time is now over as the Minister of Defence, Jean-Yves Le Drian and his Indian counterpart to sign the sale of 36 fighter jets Friday.

"Great pride" for the French Air Force. The manufacturer of the famous Rafale confirmed, those are 36 aircraft to be purchased by India. Jean-Yves Le Drian, the defense minister, is about to sign the historic agreement with his Indian counterpart in New Delhi on Friday. There is talk of a contract to 8 billion euros. The CEO of Dassault recognizes that it is a great pride. "It's a sign of success based on the performance of the aircraft but also the confidence that Indians have given us and a patient since worked hard" for this command. Negotiations began in 2007. 

*A contract that could be the first of many.** If this contract is also interesting for France than for India which will see Dassault reinvest nearly half of its profits in the Indian industry, it could be followed by d 'other. "There is a big demand from the Indian Army and especially the air force. (he meant IAF +IN) So it is also preparing for a great future. That is why we want to have very strong partnerships with Indians today. " **This contract will "initiate a strong cooperation with India in the development of 'make in India' . We wish to settle in India to work the Indians," said Eric Trappier. *

*http://www.europe1.fr/economie/vent...s-partenariats-forts-avec-les-indiens-2854339*

+++

I told you folks !!!  
@Abingdonboy - Where are you MIA Brother

@Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Abingdonboy (where are u MIA bro)
@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others

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## dev_moh

Finally rafale deal has been signed.



http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/india-...or-36-rafale-fighter-jets-with-france-1465495










*New Delhi: *More than a decade after India decided to buy a new line of fighter aircraft for the Air Force, the government today signed the deal for 36 Rafale fighters with France for about 7.87 billion Euros or 58,000 crore .
Here are the key aspects of the deal

The French Defence Minister Jean Yves LeDrian is in Delhi for signing the deal after which he will meet Prime Minister Narendra Modi.


The deal will cost India about Rs 58,000 crore or so (7.8 billion Euros) for 36 off-the-shelf Dassault Rafale twin-engine fighter. About 15 per cent of this cost is being paid in advance.


Along with the 36 fighters, India will also get spares and weaponry, including the Meteor missile, considered among the most advanced in the world.


Sources tracking the final negotiations had confirmed to NDTV that the IAF's Rafales will come equipped with the Meteor designed to knock out enemy aircraft and cruise missiles significantly more than 100 km away.


The acquisition of this weapon is likely to be game changer in South Asia. Neither Pakistan nor China, India's traditional military adversaries, possess a weapon of the same class. 


The first Rafale warplanes are slated to be delivered roughly within 18 months of the signing of the final contract.


There is an accompanying offset clause through which France will invest 30 per cent of the 7.8 billion Euros in India's military aeronautics-related research programmes and 20 percent into local production of Rafale components.


The deal could not be signed this January when French President Francois Hollande was the Chief Guest for the Republic Day because India wanted a better price.


For the Indian Air Force, the deal is bitter-sweet. On one hand, they will be getting two squadrons of the state-of-the-art fighter, on the other hand, the original requirement was for at least 126 jets.


India needs at least 42 squadrons of fighters and has an existing strength of 32. The fighter fleet will go down further by about 10 squadrons as the MiG-21 fighter will have to be decommissioned.







@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @anant_s @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ@nair@proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer@Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact@Soumitra @SrNair@TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR@guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire@AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @Levina@-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend@Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs@Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus@SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist@Glorino@noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero

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## khakhi_chaddi

*Alerts History*

23-Sep-2016 12:41:44 PM - INDIA SIGNS DEAL FOR 36 RAFALE FIGHTER JETS FROM FRANCE
*India signs 7.8 bln euro deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets from France - Reuters News*
23-Sep-2016 12:49:51 PM
NEW DELHI, Sept 23 (Reuters) - India signed a deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from France on Friday for close to 7.8 billion euros ($8.7 billion) on Friday, the country's first major acquisition of fighter planes for two decades.

France's Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian inked the agreement with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar in New Delhi, ending almost 18 months of wrangling over financial terms between New Delhi and Dassault Aviation AVMD.PA, the jet's manufacturer.

India's defence ministry said it would confirm the exact price later on Friday, but officials said it would be close to 7.8 billion euros.



($1 = 0.8920 euros)



(Reporting by Nigam Prusty and Tommy Wilkes; Editing by Sanjeev Miglani)

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## Foxbat Alok

Bundi ladu for all

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

Sign in | Create a Rediffmail account
Rediff.com » News » 4 reasons why Rafale could ruin Modi and Parrikar's party
*4 reasons why Rafale could ruin Modi and Parrikar's party*
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September 23, 2016 09:47 IST


*Ajai Shukla explains why there is considerable discomfort within the defence ministry about the Rafale deal.*






On a warm Delhi evening on April 3, 2015, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had left his South Block office and was driving to catch his flight to Goa, when his mobile phone received an incoming call from the Prime Minister's Office.

Could he come in urgently, an official asked, the PM would like to talk briefly.

When Parrikar reached the PMO, Prime Minister Narendra Modi sprang a bombshell.

Parrikar was told that, on Modi's forthcoming trip to Paris, he and French President Francois Hollande would announce an agreement for India to buy 36 Rafale fighters.

During Modi's nine-day tour of France, Germany and Canada, Parrikar would have to manage the media and field the inevitable questions.

Taken aback, Parrikar still caught his flight to Goa. Over the next week, he batted loyally on behalf of his PM, publicly defending a decision he neither understood nor agreed with, that was taken over his head, and that senior ministry of defence officials warned him would be difficult to defend.

Today, 17 months later, most pledges that Parrikar issued in defence of Modi's Rafale agreement have proven incorrect.

He told the Press Trust of India in Goa that all 36 Rafale fighters would join the IAF within two years; in fact more than six years will elapse before the final delivery is made.

He repeated the Modi-Hollande undertaking that the price would be 'on terms that would be better than' Dassault's bid in the now cancelled tender for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft. It now turns out that India will pay a vastly higher price.

But Parrikar, through 17 months of defending a deal that was not his, has become the face of the Rafale.

And after Friday, when he and his visiting French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian sign an inter-governmental agreement for 36 Rafales, Parrikar -- and not Modi -- will answer for the purchase.

There is disquiet within the MoD about the acquisition, with officials concerned about subsequent scrutiny by Constitutional authorities like the Comptroller and Auditor General. Their key worries are as follows.

E*xorbitant cost*

A key element in price negotiations is 'benchmarking', or comparing Dassault's price with other contracts involving the same fighter.

With India, Dassault had already established a benchmark in the MMRCA acquisition, where it had quoted a price for 18 fully built Rafales, just like the 36 fighters that India is now buying.

Speaking to Doordarshan on April 13, 2015, Parrikar had revealed Rafale's bid for 126 fighters, stating: 'When you talk of 126 (_Rafale_) aircraft, it becomes a purchase of about Rs 90,000 crore' -- Rs 715 crore per fighter after adding all costs.

Now Parrikar would be buying 36 Rafale fighters for Euro 7.8 billion (over Rs 58,000 crore), which is over Rs 1,600 crore per aircraft -- more than double the earlier price.

True, the current contract includes elements that were not there in the 126 fighter MMRCA tender -- including a superior weapons package with Meteor missiles; and performance-based logistics, which bind Dassault to ensure that a stipulated percentage of the Rafale fleet remains combat-ready at all times. The percentage is guessed to be about 75 to 80 per cent, an unchallenging target for Western fighter types.

Even deducting Euro 2.8 billion for the weapons and PBL from the anticipated Euro 7.8 billion contract amount, a Euro 5 billion (over Rs 37,000 crore) price tag for 36 Rafales puts the ticker price of each at over Rs 1,000 crore.

For that the IAF can buy two-and-a-half Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters -- a heavy fighter as capable as the Rafale.

V*ariation in fighter types*

IAF logisticians, who already struggle to maintain, repair and support six different types of fighters -- the Sukhoi-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21 and the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft -- are hardly welcoming the prospect of a seventh fighter type, which would require expensive, tailor-made base infrastructure, repair depots and spare parts chains.

Air power experts say more Sukhoi-30MKIs would eliminate this need, besides being cheaper.

Alternatively, fast-tracking the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft, which Russia and India intend to co-develop, would eliminate the need for Rafales.

Even if the IAF exercises an option clause for 18 more Rafales, there would be just three operational squadrons, like with the Mirage 2000.

Besides the options clause, nine more Rafales would be needed, since an IAF squadron has 21 fighters.

S*overeign guarantees*

While New Delhi is negotiating the Rafale purchase directly with the private vendor, Dassault, the MoD wants sovereign guarantees from the French government, of the kind that come with American equipment bought through the Foreign Military Sales route.

In a FMS procurement -- India's C-130J Super Hercules purchase -- the US Department of Defence (the Pentagon) sets up a dedicated 'project management team' that negotiates on the buyer's behalf, beating down the price, establishing training and logistics support, and providing assurance that the buyer gets everything needed to operate and maintain the product.

Alongside FMS support, corruption is deterred by the stringent US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which vendors seldom dare to violate. This provides comfort to Indian MoD officials against subsequent allegations raised against a deal.

Paris, in contrast, is only willing to give a lukewarm written assurance of support with the Rafale -- something that the MoD refers to disparagingly as a 'comfort letter.'

P*iecemeal contracting*

India needs some 200 to 300 fighters to replace the MiG-21 and MiG-27 fleet that is being phased out of service. Just 36 Rafales provides little cover, so the IAF hopes to buy not just 18 more under the options clause, but perhaps another tranche later.

MoD officials complain that piecemeal contracting provides little leverage for beating down prices.

The same problem will afflict the procurement of the Gripen NG, or F-16s, which the MoD is weighing as possible options to replace retiring fighters.

With an IGA in the offing, and a formal contract yet to be negotiated, New Delhi would still have the opportunity to address these issues, say MoD officials.

Yet, the IGA on Friday will be celebrated in the IAF as a giant step towards a fighter they have pursued tenaciously for 15 years.



http://www.rediff.com/news/column/f...ld-ruin-modi-and-parrikars-party/20160923.htm


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## cerberus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/779216649983369216

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## Kal Muah

cerberus said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/779216649983369216


Any details released other than the deal signed? Like weapons package and if following orders will be there under MII ?

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## dev_moh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/779216649983369216




ANI–

Verified account ‏@ANI_news
Deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets between India and France signed; deal is worth 7.8 billion euros.




12:11 AM - 23 Sep 2016

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## jaiind

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/779215963661099008


@PARIKRAMA @SpArK @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @nair @Nair saab
@RISING SUN @[Bergs]@Sri @Srinivas @gslv

 @zebra7 @karan21 @Ankit Kumar @ashok mourya @ashok321 @anant_s @samlove @Chanakya's_Chant @ranjeet @raja hindustani @Spectre @[Bregs@RPK]

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## cerberus

Ajay shukla fuming F-16 ki daal nahi gali


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## Kal Muah

*CLICK*
*AJAI SHUKLA*
*LAUGH*
*CLOSE*

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## baajey

wonderful news.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Mr Modi has tarnished hiw own reputation by himself, the rafale are least of his problems


Communal Riots in 90's , spread ethnic ate in local cities
Later , ordered abuse of Kashmiri population , in their own lands. By means of vote to fire on civilians
Ignoring the Promises made by Nehru to UK, and Pakistani PM and Indian political bodies.
The speech on National day 2016 is perhaps his darkest chapter where he openly admitted to the acts of espionage vs Pakistan , viewed by all global partners. He admitted to sending agents into Pakistan . He also admitted to India's role in Karachi disturbances between 1980 and 2016 , which involved killing bombing and espionage operations.


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## cerberus

Kal Muah said:


> Any details released other than the deal signed? Like weapons package and if following orders will be there under MII ?


Details in Official Rafale thread
this just Celebration thread

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## jaiind

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/779219059216744448

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## debspark90

PARIKRAMA said:


> Done deal


Yeeehaaww..

Any info regarding the MII part ? @PARIKRAMA



PARIKRAMA said:


> *Now some more good news*
> 
> *Sale of Rafale Dassault Aviation "is preparing for a big future" in India*
> 8:31, 23 September 2016, amended to 8:43, September 23, 2016
> 
> After several years of export difficulties, the French Rafale found buyers from India. A first partnership could call others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> INTERVIEW
> *"We are preparing for a great future in India," said Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation *micro Europe 1 on Friday. Well as aircraft tip, the French Rafale have long been shunned by buyers. But that time is now over as the Minister of Defence, Jean-Yves Le Drian and his Indian counterpart to sign the sale of 36 fighter jets Friday.
> 
> "Great pride" for the French Air Force. The manufacturer of the famous Rafale confirmed, those are 36 aircraft to be purchased by India. Jean-Yves Le Drian, the defense minister, is about to sign the historic agreement with his Indian counterpart in New Delhi on Friday. There is talk of a contract to 8 billion euros. The CEO of Dassault recognizes that it is a great pride. "It's a sign of success based on the performance of the aircraft but also the confidence that Indians have given us and a patient since worked hard" for this command. Negotiations began in 2007.
> 
> *A contract that could be the first of many.** If this contract is also interesting for France than for India which will see Dassault reinvest nearly half of its profits in the Indian industry, it could be followed by d 'other. "There is a big demand from the Indian Army and especially the air force. (he meant IAF +IN) So it is also preparing for a great future. That is why we want to have very strong partnerships with Indians today. " **This contract will "initiate a strong cooperation with India in the development of 'make in India' . We wish to settle in India to work the Indians," said Eric Trappier. *
> 
> *http://www.europe1.fr/economie/vent...s-partenariats-forts-avec-les-indiens-2854339*
> 
> +++
> 
> I told you folks !!!
> @Abingdonboy - Where are you MIA Brother
> 
> @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Abingdonboy (where are u MIA bro)
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others


Omg now I can't stop jumping man.. thanks again @PARIKRAMA

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## cerberus



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## VivasvatManu

One of the good things to come from the terror attacks on Uri. No Indian is protesting this deal  

I think at this time even pakistan deserves a small thanks for making this happen. Especially from the French.


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## srshkmr

So *Rafale* deal sees light before I my son is born I guess

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## PARIKRAMA

*Official statement

Dassault Aviation welcomes the acquisition by India of 36 Rafale*
Saint-Cloud, France, September 23, 2016 – France and India signed today the contract for the acquisition of 36 Rafale by India.

The conclusion of this contract comes after the announcement by Indian Prime Minister, Narendra Modi, during his visit to Paris in April 2015, of his desire to rapidly equip the Indian Air Force with 36 Rafale. This desire was reiterated during the visit to India by French President, François Hollande, in January 2016. The French Minister of Defence, Mr Jean-Yves le Drian and his Indian counterpart, Mr Manohar Parrikar, were instrumental in advancing this project during the course of their numerous exchanges.

Following on from the Mirage 2000, whose effective service with the Indian Air Force played a major role in establishing the reputation of Dassault aircraft, the Rafale was chosen by India in 2012 following a competitive bidding process initiated in 2007. The Rafale has been used by the French armed forces in combat operations for more than a decade now and has proven its operational excellence in various theatres around the world.

This new contract illustrates the strategic relationship and the exemplary partnership maintained between the two countries and marks the natural culmination of the relationship of trust initiated in 1953 when India became Dassault Aviation’s first export customer.

This further success of the Rafale confirms the technological know-how and competences of Dassault Aviation’s employees and of its 500 industrial partners. It rewards the work done by a close-knit “France” team. It represents a decisive step forward in achieving Dassault Aviation’s goal of establishing itself in India with a view to developing wide-ranging cooperation under the “Make in India” policy promoted by Mr Narendra Modi.

“_I am honoured and delighted by the decision of the Indian Authorities which gives new impetus to our partnership for the coming decades and I thank them for their confidence. Together, Indian and French companies alike, we will endeavour to ensure ambitious industrial cooperation. I am certain that the Rafale and its performance will hold high the colours of the Indian Air Force. It will demonstrate unstinting efficiency in protecting the people of India and the sovereignty of the world’s largest democracy_”, declared Eric Trappier, Dassault Aviation Chairman and CEO.

*About the Rafale:*
The Rafale is a twin-jet fighter aircraft able to operate from both an aircraft carrier and a shore base. The fully versatile Rafale is able to carry out all combat aviation missions: air defence, interception, ground support, in-depth strikes, reconnaissance, anti-ship strikes and nuclear deterrence. The Rafale entered service with the French Navy in 2004 and with the French Air Force in 2006. It has proven its worth in combat in Afghanistan, Libya, Mali, Iraq and Syria. In 2015, Egypt and Qatar have each ordered 24 Rafales. On 30 June 2016, 152 Rafale aircraft had been delivered.

*About Dassault Aviation:*
With more than 8,000 military and civil aircraft delivered to more than 90 countries over the past 60 years, and having logged nearly 28 million flight hours to date, Dassault Aviation can offer recognized know-how and experience in the design, development, sale and support of all types of aircraft, from the Rafale fighter to the Falcon range of high-end business jets, as well as military unmanned air systems. In 2015, Dassault Aviation reported revenues of €4.20 billion. The company has almost 12,000 employees. In 2016, Dassault Aviation is celebrating the first centennial of its history, which started in 1916 with Marcel Dassault and the Éclair propeller.

www.dassault-aviation.com
Follow us on Twitter: @Dassault_OnAir

_To obtain high-definition photos:_
http://mediaprophoto.dassault-aviation.com

_To obtain high-definition videos:_
_www.asds-media.com_

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en...viation-welcomes-acquisition-india-36-rafale/

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## srshkmr

VivasvatManu said:


> Now you can name him Rafale .... hope he is made in India



lol I am just 20 unmarried .. I thought this deal will go through after his puberty .

and my GF is Iranian . I am not sure its made in India or Made in Iran

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## VivasvatManu

srshkmr said:


> lol I am just 20 unmarried .. I thought this deal will go through after his puberty .
> 
> and my GF is Iranian . I am not sure its made in India or Made in Iran



Chalo its 50% offset

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## shree835

*New Delhi: * More than a decade after India decided to buy a new line of fighter aircraft for the Air Force, the government today signed the deal for 36 Rafale fighters with France.

Here are the key aspects of the deal

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his French counterpart Jean Yves LeDrian signed the contract in Delhi on Friday after years of tortuous negotiations between the two countries.
India will pay about Rs. 58,000 crore or 7.8 billion Euros for 36 off-the-shelf Dassault Rafale twin-engine fighters. About 15 per cent of this cost is being paid in advance.
India will also get spares and weaponry, including the Meteor missile, considered among the most advanced in the world.
Sources tracking the final negotiations had confirmed to NDTV that the IAF's Rafales will come equipped with the Meteor designed to knock out enemy aircraft and cruise missiles significantly more than 100 km away.
The acquisition of this weapon is likely to be game changer in South Asia. Neither Pakistan nor China, India's traditional military adversaries, possess a weapon of the same class.
The first Rafale warplanes are slated to be delivered roughly within 18 months of the signing of the final contract.
There is an accompanying offset clause through which France will invest 30 per cent of the 7.8 billion Euros in India's military aeronautics-related research programmes and 20 percent into local production of Rafale components.
The deal could not be signed this January when French President Francois Hollande was the Chief Guest for the Republic Day because India wanted a better price.
For the Indian Air Force, the deal is bitter-sweet. On one hand, they will be getting two squadrons of the state-of-the-art fighter, on the other hand, the original requirement was for at least 126 jets.
India needs at least 42 squadrons of fighters and has an existing strength of 32. The fighter fleet will go down further by about 10 squadrons as the MiG-21 fighter will have to be decommissioned.


http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indi...or-36-rafale-fighter-jets-with-france-1465495

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## jha

srshkmr said:


> lol I am just 20 unmarried .. I thought this deal will go through after his puberty .
> 
> and my GF is Iranian . I am not sure its made in India or Made in Iran



Name him/her Chahbahar .... Made by India in Iran... 

OT : Congrats to all Rafale warriors... especially "Sancho"..

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## ni8mare

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154610068352139

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## cerberus

Great To See All this Patience getting a Satisfactual end

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## Hephaestus

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Now some more good news*
> 
> *Sale of Rafale Dassault Aviation "is preparing for a big future" in India*

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## Grevion

jha said:


> Name him/her Chahbahar .... Made by India in Iran...
> 
> OT : Congrats to all Rafale warriors... especially "Sancho"..



Where is Sancho these days??

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## proud indian94

Congrats everyone. So finally its done.

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## PARIKRAMA

https://www.facebook.com/francoishollande.fr/posts/10154600587422502

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## jha

litefire said:


> Where is Sancho these days??



No idea.. Has changed his name also. Could not find him.

Now another noob and off-topic question : Can we work with MBDA to get SPECTRA for FGFA ..?

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## Muhammad Omar

Congratulations India

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## proud indian94

Now when can we expect MII deal.

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## Tuchha

Congratulations all..

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## cerberus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/779222826087813120

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/779224347437326336


proud indian94 said:


> Now when can we expect MII deal.


When finance will improve in more in btw 2017- 2018

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## CorporateAffairs

kahonapyarhai said:


> *India needs more than Rafale to match China: Experts*



Why these morons compare with China


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## Stephen Cohen

Today it is time for Champagne

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## cerberus

I Am More excited for this than rafale itself

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## Agent_47

@San


Stephen Cohen said:


> Today it is time for Champagne


Baaki Baatein Peene Baad !

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## Stephen Cohen

cerberus said:


> I Am More excited for this than rafale itself



This plane is F 35 ; Right 

Will Meteor be equipped with F 35 ? That is strange

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## ni8mare

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1575390479437517

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## kaykay

Congrats all.... Finally we can say Rafales are coming to India.

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## cerberus

Stephen Cohen said:


> This plane is F 35 ; Right
> 
> Will Meteor be equipped with F 35 ? That is strange


Yes integration in process FOR F-35 Meteor is gen beyond Than in all available Bvr's

Interestingly now We have both MBDA ASRAAM & METEOR

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## Stephen Cohen

cerberus said:


> Yes integration in process FOR F-35 Meteor is gen beyond Than in all available Bvr's
> 
> Interestingly now We have both MBDA ASRAAM & METEOR



For Air to Ground munitions we can go for Indian weapons --PGMs
which are under development and were recently tested 

We have lot of time ; At the most we can get Scalp

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## monitor

*Rafale Deal For 36 Fighter Jets Finally Sealed After Long Wait: 10 Facts*
All India | Edited by Shuchi Shukla | Updated: September 23, 2016 13:43 IST





*New Delhi: * India today signed a deal to buy 36 high-tech Rafale fighters from France in the country's first major acquisition of fighter aircraft in over two decades.
Here are the key aspects of the deal

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his French counterpart Jean Yves LeDrian signed the contract in Delhi on Friday after years of tortuous negotiations between the two countries.
India will pay about Rs. 58,000 crore or 7.8 billion Euros for 36 off-the-shelf Dassault Rafale twin-engine fighters. About 15 per cent of this cost is being paid in advance.
India will also get spares and weaponry, including the Meteor missile, considered among the most advanced in the world.
Sources tracking the final negotiations had confirmed to NDTV that the IAF's Rafales will come equipped with the Meteor designed to knock out enemy aircraft and cruise missiles significantly more than 100 km away.
The acquisition of this weapon is likely to be game changer in South Asia. Neither Pakistan nor China, India's traditional military adversaries, possess a weapon of the same class. 
The first Rafale warplanes are slated to be delivered roughly within 18 months of the signing of the final contract.
There is an accompanying offset clause through which France will invest 30 per cent of the 7.8 billion Euros in India's military aeronautics-related research programmes and 20 percent into local production of Rafale components.
The deal could not be signed this January when French President Francois Hollande was the Chief Guest for the Republic Day because India wanted a better price.
For the Indian Air Force, the deal is bitter-sweet. On one hand, they will be getting two squadrons of the state-of-the-art fighter, on the other hand, the original requirement was for at least 126 jets.
India needs at least 42 squadrons of fighters and has an existing strength of 32. The fighter fleet will go down further by about 10 squadrons as the MiG-21 fighters - dubbed flying coffins because of their poor safety record - will have to be grounded.

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## Skull and Bones

Over time, we will acquire more than 150 Rafales.

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## monitor

*Rafale deal signed: An overview of its history and what this means for India*


Jaideep Prabhu Sep 23, 2016 13:13 IS
_Editor's note: This article was originally published on Thursday. It is being republished in light of the signing of the Rafale deal on Friday._

As news broke late Wednesday evening that India and France had finally agreed upon the terms and conditions for the purchase of 36 Rafale jets by the former from the latter, it was probably greeted with relief rather than joy. Dassault, the French aviation company that manufactures the Rafale, had won the tender in January 2012 but had been locked in negotiations with the Indian government over the technical details ever since. When Narendra Modi came to office, he tried to break the impasse and India initiated talks directly with the French government for an inter-government agreement but even that, until just a month ago, seemed to be going nowhere. The conclusion of the deal, to be signed on 23 September, will be a relief to the Indian Air Force as well as Dassault. The first planes will begin to arrive 36 months hence and the entire order will be completed a further 30 months from then.





Representational image. Agencies

In fact, India's search for a medium multi-role combat aircraft had begun almost a decade ago in August 2007 when finances finally allowed the IAF to begin replacing its aging fleet of MiGs. Four companies participated in the competition - Saab, Mikoyan, Lockheed and of course, Dassault. The Rafale's similarities to the Mirage 2000 that the IAF already operated, its lower life-cycle costs, and its naval and nuclear strike variants clinched the deal for Dassault.

Although the deal was originally envisaged to be for 126 aircraft with an option of 74 more, the final agreement has settled around 36 jets. Projected to cost $12 billion in 2012, that figure has also come down to $7.88 billion. However, India has managed to negotiate for several bells and whistles in the smaller deal and it is reported that the agreed upon price is around $750 million less than what the previous government was willing to pay.

Dassault has agreed to make India-specific modifications to the planes, allowing the integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays. Additionally, MBDA, the European missile manufacturer, will provide Meteor, an air-to-air missile with a beyond-visual-range over 100 km, and Storm Shadow (known as Système de Croisière Autonome à Longue Portée – Emploi Général or SCALP in the French military), an air-launched cruise missile with a range of over 560 km, with the Rafales. Both these acquisitions will significantly improve the reach of the IAF, allowing them to shoot deep into enemy airspace or territory without crossing any international boundaries. Integration of the Brahmos-NG, a smaller version of the Brahmos supersonic missile, will make the Rafale a lethal platform by land or sea.

also see






India set to sign Rafale deal on Friday further cementing Indo-French strategic ties







Rafale deal: French Defence Minister to arrive in India on Thursday night







Rafale deal: French Defence Minister Jean Yves Le Drian to arrive in India

A complete transfer of technology, including for the Thales RBE2-AA radar and software source code, spare parts, maintenance, training, and a guarantee of 75 percent operational availability for the first five years takes the price of the package up from a base price of $3.8 billion for just the Rafales to the final number. A 50 percent offset agreement obligates Dassault to re-invest half the money from the deal in India again, creating hundreds of new jobs.

India's decision to buy only 36 planes, barely two squadrons, seems puzzling at first. They will not fill the gap in the IAF's numbers and nor will the Rafale's nuclear capability add much to the Indian offensive toolkit. One can only assume that once the first set of jets are delivered, a further order will be placed to augment the existing numbers, including naval variants. This is even more likely if Dassault begins to manufacture in India - with the transfer of technology, it would be easy to domestically ramp up numbers as India has done with the Sukhoi. The Rafale's primary role is to replace the IAF's retiring fleet: while the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is expected to step in at the low end, the Rafale will occupy the mid-level force structure with the expectation that an advanced indigenous descendant of the Tejas or the fifth generation fighter that India is jointly developing with Russia will form the top of the line component.

Immediately, the Rafale is expected to give India the dominant status in the air. Wedded to airborne control systems, the Rafale and its armaments can essentially hit enemy targets while staying out of range of their fighter jets. Though not the essential component of a future cross-border strike, the Rafale can provide the additional firepower if needed. As the IAF's description of the tender suggests, the Rafale is a multi-role platform that can be deployed for air dominance, ground support, aerial reconnaissance, and nuclear delivery. The Rafale has already been used in all these capacities - except the last, of course - in Afghanistan, Libya, Mali, and Iraq and maintained a high operational rate throughout.

Neither the Rafale nor any other weapons system will give the side possessing it the ultimate advantage in battle and such expectations are foolish. Nonetheless, the Rafale, when it arrives, will substantially augment the Indian Air Force's capabilities in several mission profiles and put India's hostile neighbours on notice. An additional acquisition of domestically manufactured Rafales post-2021 would buy the Indian defence establishment time to complete its advanced fighter aircraft for the IAF. For an enervated service, the arrival of the Rafales will be a breath of fresh air.

*Rafale deal signed: An overview of its history and what this means for India*


Jaideep Prabhu Sep 23, 2016 13:13 IST

#CriticalPoint #Dassault #Defence #France #IAF #India #IndianAirForce #jets #PM Narendra Modi #Rafale deal #World 

54 Comments


374




3







_Editor's note: This article was originally published on Thursday. It is being republished in light of the signing of the Rafale deal on Friday._

As news broke late Wednesday evening that India and France had finally agreed upon the terms and conditions for the purchase of 36 Rafale jets by the former from the latter, it was probably greeted with relief rather than joy. Dassault, the French aviation company that manufactures the Rafale, had won the tender in January 2012 but had been locked in negotiations with the Indian government over the technical details ever since. When Narendra Modi came to office, he tried to break the impasse and India initiated talks directly with the French government for an inter-government agreement but even that, until just a month ago, seemed to be going nowhere. The conclusion of the deal, to be signed on 23 September, will be a relief to the Indian Air Force as well as Dassault. The first planes will begin to arrive 36 months hence and the entire order will be completed a further 30 months from then.





Representational image. Agencies

In fact, India's search for a medium multi-role combat aircraft had begun almost a decade ago in August 2007 when finances finally allowed the IAF to begin replacing its aging fleet of MiGs. Four companies participated in the competition - Saab, Mikoyan, Lockheed and of course, Dassault. The Rafale's similarities to the Mirage 2000 that the IAF already operated, its lower life-cycle costs, and its naval and nuclear strike variants clinched the deal for Dassault.

Although the deal was originally envisaged to be for 126 aircraft with an option of 74 more, the final agreement has settled around 36 jets. Projected to cost $12 billion in 2012, that figure has also come down to $7.88 billion. However, India has managed to negotiate for several bells and whistles in the smaller deal and it is reported that the agreed upon price is around $750 million less than what the previous government was willing to pay.

Dassault has agreed to make India-specific modifications to the planes, allowing the integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays. Additionally, MBDA, the European missile manufacturer, will provide Meteor, an air-to-air missile with a beyond-visual-range over 100 km, and Storm Shadow (known as Système de Croisière Autonome à Longue Portée – Emploi Général or SCALP in the French military), an air-launched cruise missile with a range of over 560 km, with the Rafales. Both these acquisitions will significantly improve the reach of the IAF, allowing them to shoot deep into enemy airspace or territory without crossing any international boundaries. Integration of the Brahmos-NG, a smaller version of the Brahmos supersonic missile, will make the Rafale a lethal platform by land or sea.

also see






India set to sign Rafale deal on Friday further cementing Indo-French strategic ties







Rafale deal: French Defence Minister to arrive in India on Thursday night







Rafale deal: French Defence Minister Jean Yves Le Drian to arrive in India

A complete transfer of technology, including for the Thales RBE2-AA radar and software source code, spare parts, maintenance, training, and a guarantee of 75 percent operational availability for the first five years takes the price of the package up from a base price of $3.8 billion for just the Rafales to the final number. A 50 percent offset agreement obligates Dassault to re-invest half the money from the deal in India again, creating hundreds of new jobs.

India's decision to buy only 36 planes, barely two squadrons, seems puzzling at first. They will not fill the gap in the IAF's numbers and nor will the Rafale's nuclear capability add much to the Indian offensive toolkit. One can only assume that once the first set of jets are delivered, a further order will be placed to augment the existing numbers, including naval variants. This is even more likely if Dassault begins to manufacture in India - with the transfer of technology, it would be easy to domestically ramp up numbers as India has done with the Sukhoi. The Rafale's primary role is to replace the IAF's retiring fleet: while the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is expected to step in at the low end, the Rafale will occupy the mid-level force structure with the expectation that an advanced indigenous descendant of the Tejas or the fifth generation fighter that India is jointly developing with Russia will form the top of the line component.

Immediately, the Rafale is expected to give India the dominant status in the air. Wedded to airborne control systems, the Rafale and its armaments can essentially hit enemy targets while staying out of range of their fighter jets. Though not the essential component of a future cross-border strike, the Rafale can provide the additional firepower if needed. As the IAF's description of the tender suggests, the Rafale is a multi-role platform that can be deployed for air dominance, ground support, aerial reconnaissance, and nuclear delivery. The Rafale has already been used in all these capacities - except the last, of course - in Afghanistan, Libya, Mali, and Iraq and maintained a high operational rate throughout.

Neither the Rafale nor any other weapons system will give the side possessing it the ultimate advantage in battle and such expectations are foolish. Nonetheless, the Rafale, when it arrives, will substantially augment the Indian Air Force's capabilities in several mission profiles and put India's hostile neighbours on notice. An additional acquisition of domestically manufactured Rafales post-2021 would buy the Indian defence establishment time to complete its advanced fighter aircraft for the IAF. For an enervated service, the arrival of the Rafales will be a breath of fresh air.

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## Stephen Cohen

AFTER twenty Years India signs a deal for NEW Fighter planes

Su 30 deal was signed on 30 NOVEMBER 1996

http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/su30mk/history/

Negotiations with India to supply Su-27 type fighters started in 1994. The Design Bureau commenced work to develop a Su-30-based plane for India's Air Force in 1995. A.F. Barkovsky was appointed chief designer of the project.

* On 30th November 1996* an intergovernmental agreement was made for phased development and delivery to India of 8 Su-30K two-seat fighters and 32 Su-30MKI multi-role two-seat fighters.

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## cerberus

Indian guys @kahonapyarhai is bot Who trying best ruin the day better ignore his threads

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## monitor

I have created this new thread as Rafale is no more in tender process but going to induct in Indian Air force within 30 months after this signing of agreement .discuss related matter of Rafale in Indian Air force .thanks


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## cerberus

Interestingly now We have all three MBDA ASRAAM & METEOR and MICA


















Skull and Bones said:


> Over time, we will acquire more than 150 Rafales.


most of the Jaguars replaced by rafale by 2030

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## monitor

The #*RafaleDeal* signing ceremony in 4 pictures.





Here's @*Dassault_OnAir*'s statement on the just signed Indian #*RafaleDeal*. http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/dassault-aviation/press/press-kits/dassault-aviation-welcomes-acquisition-india-36-rafale/ …

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## kaykay

Now talks for over 100 Rafales under make in India will start......

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## jaiind

I had created the thread about rafale deal is done before 1 hr ago. Admins whats gng on, why did you deleted yhr existing thread of my mine?? @waz

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## cerberus



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## PARIKRAMA

*ALL Rafale threads are merged and in sticky only.

One place collation of information

Please do not open multiple Rafale threads.*

Regards

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## monitor



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## proud indian94

What about the 18 optional rafale clause.is it there or not.

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## Chauvinist

India signed a deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from France on Friday for close to 7.8 billion euros ($8.7 billion) on Friday.

The long-awaited deal was inked in Delhi between defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his French counterpart Jean Yves Le Drian.

The 7.8 billion euro deal is crucial for the Indian Air Force that is grappling with a drawdown of its fighter fleet.

The IAF has 33 fighter squadrons, each consisting of 18 fighter planes. It requires 45 combat units to counter a combined threat from China and Pakistan. The IAF admits it does not have sufficient number of warplanes for a two-front war.

The Rafale aircraft will allow the airforce to strike targets in Pakistani soil even while flying within the Indian airspace.

The Narendra Modi government had cleared the deal amid indications that the French government waived off the advance guarantee, allowing India to save 134 million euros.

The Centre had initially planned to purchase 126 fighter planes but later opted for just 36 jets in fly-away condition from France with Prime Minister Narendra Modi announcing the revised deal in Paris last year.
The delivery of the jets will begin in 36 months and will be completed in 66 months from the date the contract is inked.

The fighter jets will have state-of-the-art missiles like Meteor and Scalp that will give the IAF a capability that had been sorely missing in its arsenal.

Rafale jets will enable the air force to hit targets inside Pakistan from within India. Pakistan currently has only a beyond-visual-range (BVR) missile with 80-km range.

During the Kargil war, India had used a BVR having 50-km range while Pakistan had none. With Meteor, the balance of power in the air space has again tilted in India’s favour.

The “vanilla price” or the price of only the 36 aircraft is 3.42 billion euros. The armaments cost 710 million euros and changes specific for India will be done for 1,700 million euros. The total price also includes spare parts and maintenance.
_*http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...from-france/story-KFXMt9NlWnHVaNPeEdrPXI.html*_

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## HIT AND RUN

Please, remove this thread.


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## Hellfire

proud indian94 said:


> What about the 18 optional rafale clause.is it there or not.




By default.

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## randomradio

Finally, all that waiting paid off.

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## noksss

wooooooooooooooooohoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo




@Abingdonboy Atleast now you should change your view on parikkar a little bit. I agree that he still has a long way to go but we should give some credit where its due

@PARIKRAMA Awesome work dude keep rocking

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## PARIKRAMA

*A little tit bit - 
28 single seater and 8 twin seater in this deal*

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## KingRaj

HIT AND RUN said:


> Please, remove this thread.


This is for you:

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## Yogi

@PARIKRAMA Sir can u plz confirm the 18 follow on point.....

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## PARIKRAMA

*Dassault: the sale of 36 Rafale to India paves the way for further success*



ActionsThere are 58 minutes






The Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian before a Rafale March 10, 2016 in Mont-de-Marsan (Photo GEORGES GOBET. AFP)



The CEO of Dassault, Eric Trappier, estimates that the sale of 36 Rafale fighter jets to India will open the way to other successes in this country and that Malaysia may be the next market winner in Asia.

*Question: The sale of 36 aircraft to India she is not half a success compared to the original tender (126 Rafale, 108 manufactured in India)? Is this a first step for other contracts in India?

Answer: "I believe in a primer The 36 will be a primer We will continue efforts to get maybe renewal (wider) of the army of the Indian Air It will work the day after the... signing the contract on 36. Regarding the case of the 126, it took so much time that the Indians have said 'we will buy 36 aircraft directly +. Better than 36 126 virtual real. "*

Q: The contract provides for compensation (offset). What are the guidelines and what Dassault benefits can he draw?

A:* "The + offset + is: buy Indian products, produce and help produce parts that we buy in India, helping develop new products We will initiate an industrial plant, probably through a partnership with. local player. It will be aerospace and defense mainly. India is a major emerging country. It's easier to be here than in China. There will be no license problem of 'export...

It was an obligation of 50% offset. If the contract is EUR 8 billion was a theoretical obligation to 4 billion. After there are coefficients (an investment account over a gross purchase, note). We negotiated the principle, it has obligations, deadlines, chapter headings (...) Now we must do. "*

Q: Does the contract he opens new perspectives in the region or elsewhere to Dassault?

A: "It is moving towards the East: Egypt, Qatar and India ... I would like to continue with Malaysia This is a little more again The first three countries were long users.. date of Mirage 2000, Mirage F1 ... We never sold a plane to Malaysia. It is a new challenge. I believe more in Malaysia than in Canada. the west side + + seems to me more complicated because of US close. Want or they may not buy American?

The snowball effect continues. There is a good momentum. French politics may appeal to some who want to stay more independent of the United States. We can not sell that kind of material if there is no trust (strategic) between two countries. "

Interviewed by Valerie Leroux
http://fr.investing.com/news/actual...l'inde-ouvre-la-voie-à-d'autres-succès-190552
++
Enjoy his interview..

[/USER] @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others

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## Ankit Kumar 002

PARIKRAMA said:


> *A little tit bit -
> 28 single seater and 8 twin seater in this deal*



And what is the amount we will be paying as the first tranche of payments , and one crucial question , will it require another long process of clearance from Finance ministry ?

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## VivasvatManu

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> And what is the amount we will be paying as the first tranche of payments , and one crucial question , will it require another long process of clearance from Finance ministry ?



That is irrelevant. The Finance ministry has to honour the contract once its signed.

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## dadeechi

If there is one person that needs to be credited for this deal that is Mr. Modi. He literally brought back a dead MMRCA deal to life and managed to close the deal.

Specifications wise too this is better than the original MMRCA. MII component is the one where jury is still out.

Parrikar played his part well by being the bad cop. (There is no money for RAFALEs.....I could not laugh enough when he said that )

Full credit to Modi, Doval & Parrikar team effort.

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## Vergennes

Congratulations to the indians and dassault !​





Finally!!​


@GuardianRED @ni8mare @dadeechi @randomradio @Nilgiri @SR-91 @Sri @R!CK @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @SrNair @anant_s @Armani @kmc_chacko @nair @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @mirage @Blue Marlin @mike2000 is back @BON PLAN @ranjeet @surya kiran etc!

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## Fireurimagination

Finally, good work, darn both Indians and French are tough negotiators

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## [Bregs]

Vergennes said:


> Congratulations to the indians and dassault !​
> View attachment 337148
> 
> 
> Finally!!​
> View attachment 337147​@GuardianRED @ni8mare @dadeechi @randomradio @Nilgiri @SR-91 @Sri @R!CK @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @SrNair @anant_s @Armani @kmc_chacko @nair @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @mirage @Blue Marlin @mike2000 is back @BON PLAN @ranjeet @surya kiran etc!










Lots of patience and resilience shown by France and India to sign off this complicated deal

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> I assumed the same, but Picdel pointed out it takes 3 years to manufacture the Rafale.


There is no real value to that. That time can change as Dassault and the partners adapt.
The incompressible time is the limit when you activate all people and machines needed
on a 24H clock until the fighter rolls out.
And that is well below 2+ years, trust me ... even if I'm not Pic!



Skull and Bones said:


> If the option for 126 goes through, where does that put the prospect for Gripens?


Where it belongs.



VivasvatManu said:


> But also points to the fact that any assembly line for 90 aircrafts will not have too much MII component in it. It will end up as screwdrive tech.


It's a sliding rule thing. Total ToT doesn't really happen.
In a best case scenario as here, Up-to-Date tech is available because
the next gen is ready to come online. That's rather rare.
Still, for a given amount of money, you will get screwdriver giri tomorrow,
full assembly later and your own line in 5 or 8 years.
For infinite money, you can buy France so the Merignac line becomes MII.
In between, there is the F-35.




srshkmr said:


> So *Rafale* deal sees light before I my son is born I guess


Mine was born late in the last millenium and left for school with a puzzled grin. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> _It will demonstrate unstinting efficiency in protecting the people of India and the sovereignty of the world’s largest democracy_”, declared Eric Trappier, Dassault Aviation Chairman and CEO.



I really like that guy!



jha said:


> Now another noob and off-topic question : Can we work with MBDA to get SPECTRA for FGFA ..?


LOL Absolutely not but mostly because MBDA makes missiles and THALES makes Spectra.
So yeah, noob question, no doubt! 



That was so cute :


cerberus said:


> Details in Official Rafale thread
> this just Celebration thread


No, it ain't!


monitor said:


> I have created this new thread as Rafale is no more in tender process but going to induct in Indian Air force within 30 months after this signing of agreement .discuss related matter of Rafale in Indian Air force .thanks


Yeah but check :


PARIKRAMA said:


> ALL Rafale threads are merged and in sticky only.


The joys of time-delay chat.



kaykay said:


> Now talks for over 100 Rafales under make in India will start... to be revealed to the Indian public and media.


There, mate! Fixed that fer ya!





PARIKRAMA said:


> A little tit bit -
> 28 single seater and 8 twin seater in this deal



So clearly not for the nuclear strike role, hum?

Read you all later, Tay.

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## New World

thanks God. finally deal is signed. 
congratz to indian members, your wish comes true..

now i hope PAF will also entertain us(Pakistani members) for the arrival of new jets.

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## PARIKRAMA

Ok folks ET Now had an interview with Eric Trappier.. Here are the tweets and what i headr in interview




















Now what i heard in interview

Reporter said 15 squad needed, is this 2 order as a way of testing the water
Trappier said
Its a batch of 36
with this we will install an industry base
with Installed industry, build the capability
with that get more opportunities
Translated into orders

Reporter asked about Local Partnership
Trappier said
Coming soon out in public domain
Prefer developing a private company partnership 
Focussed on investments and developing for a long term
not only for defence but for civilian market as well
Capable of meeting exports market via this.

Reporter Hinting on MII
Trappier said
Yes on radar
majority in India as it gives capability and advantages to India

Reporters asked for challenges for MII
Trappier said
A need to have a long term view as investments are in tools and hum,an capital for developing the skillsets.
Stabilise the ecosystem producing such aircrafts over the long term
50% defence and 50% civilian side focus approiach
Secondary market for Aeronautics, engg, avionics, sub systems, etc

Reporter asked for Joint Production of Spare/weapon/etc
Trappier said
Hardware, Software ad services to support Indian aircrafts will be localised
Indian authorities will reveal more details

Reporter asked for offset details
Trappier said
Indian authorities to answer that as cant disclose due to signing NDA with India

Reporter on Lifetime support
Trappier said Yes
Reporter asked for customizations 
Trappier said IAF or MOD to comment on this
Reporter asked for Line of credit
Trappier said Gov to Gov talks . cant comment
Reporter asked about Mirage phasing
Trappier said at an appropriate time yes but as of now HAl is doinga good job upgrading them.
Reporter asked for Nuclear capability
Trappier said
French aircrafts are designed and capable
But its outside his domain to comment

Reporter talked about long Indian time
Trappier said
DA is very patient
DA is working very hard for last 60 years with India and they understand how India works for a long term commitment





Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> And what is the amount we will be paying as the first tranche of payments , and one crucial question , will it require another long process of clearance from Finance ministry ?


15% amount


@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others

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## zambino

So first rafales delivery in 18 months??


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## nair

PARIKRAMA said:


> Ok folks ET Now had an interview with Eric Trappier.. Here are the tweets and what i headr in interview
> 
> 
> View attachment 337156
> 
> View attachment 337152
> 
> View attachment 337153
> 
> View attachment 337155
> 
> 
> 
> Now what i heard in interview
> 
> Reporter said 15 squad needed, is this 2 order as a way of testing the water
> Trappier said
> Its a batch of 36
> with this we will install an industry base
> with Installed industry, build the capability
> with that get more opportunities
> Translated into orders
> 
> Reporter asked about Local Partnership
> Trappier said
> Coming soon out in public domain
> Prefer developing a private company partnership
> Focussed on investments and developing for a long term
> not only for defence but for civilian market as well
> Capable of meeting exports market via this.
> 
> Reporter Hinting on MII
> Trappier said
> Yes on radar
> majority in India as it gives capability and advantages to India
> 
> Reporters asked for challenges for MII
> Trappier said
> A need to have a long term view as investments are in tools and hum,an capital for developing the skillsets.
> Stabilise the ecosystem producing such aircrafts over the long term
> 50% defence and 50% civilian side focus approiach
> Secondary market for Aeronautics, engg, avionics, sub systems, etc
> 
> Reporter asked for Joint Production of Spare/weapon/etc
> Trappier said
> Hardware, Software ad services to support Indian aircrafts will be localised
> Indian authorities will reveal more details
> 
> Reporter asked for offset details
> Trappier said
> Indian authorities to answer that as cant disclose due to signing NDA with India
> 
> Reporter on Lifetime support
> Trappier said Yes
> Reporter asked for customizations
> Trappier said IAF or MOD to comment on this
> Reporter asked for Line of credit
> Trappier said Gov to Gov talks . cant comment
> Reporter asked about Mirage phasing
> Trappier said at an appropriate time yes but as of now HAl is doinga good job upgrading them.
> Reporter asked for Nuclear capability
> Trappier said
> French aircrafts are designed and capable
> But its outside his domain to comment
> 
> Reporter talked about long Indian time
> Trappier said
> DA is very patient
> DA is working very hard for last 60 years with India and they understand how India works for a long term commitment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 15% amount
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others


2019 first delivery.......



zambino said:


> So first rafales delivered in 18 months??



Nope 36


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## zambino

nair said:


> 2019 first delivery.......
> 
> 
> 
> Nope 36






sry for the screen shot sir. But here it says 18 months.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

@PARIKRAMA Just like the Egyptian versions are named EM/DM 

What is expected for IAF? 

IN or H or normal B/C

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## egodoc222

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/IAF...-for-36-fighter-jets/articleshow/54478489.cms


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## egodoc222

France on Friday signed the Euro 7.87-billion deal for Rafale fighter jets, equipped with latest missiles and weapon system besides multiple India- specific modifications that will give the IAF cutting edge capability over arch rival Pakistan.

Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart Jean Yves Le Drian sixteen months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced India's plans to buy 36 Rafale fighter aircraft in fly away condition during his trip to France.

The deal comes with a saving of nearly 750 million Euros , gained through hard negotiations by the Indian side, over the one struck during the previous UPA government, which was scrapped by the Narendra Modi government, besides a 50 per cent offset clause.

These combat aircraft, delivery of which will start in 36 months and will be completed in 66 months from the date the contract is inked, comes equipped with state-of-the-art missiles like 'Meteor' and 'Scalp' that will give IAF a capability that had been sorely missing in its arsenal.

The features that make the Rafale a strategic weapon in the hands of IAF include its Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Meteor air-to-air missile with a range in excess of 150 km.

Its integration on the Rafale jets will mean IAF can hit targets inside both Pakistan and across the northern and eastern borders while staying within India's territorial boundary.

Pakistan at present has only a BVR with 80 km range. During the Kargil war, India had used a BVR of 50 km range while Pakistan had none.

However, Pakistan later acquired 80-km-range BVR, but now with 'Meteor', the balance of power in the air space has again tilted in India's favour.

'Scalp', a long-range air-to-ground cruise missile with a range in excess of 300 km, also gives IAF an edge over its adversaries.

Sources said the "vanilla price" of just the 36 aircraft is about 3.42 billion Euros. The armaments cost about 710 million Euros while Indian specific changes, including integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays, will cost 1,700 million Euros.

Associate supplies for the 36 fighter jets will cost about 1800 million Euros while performance based logistics will cost about 353 million Euros.

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## AUSTERLITZ

Meteor is the game changer here.It reversed PAF's one remaining advantage that f-16 AMRAAMs had ,but those will now be outclassed by meteor which is just a new gen missile with massive range.Nor can PAF equalize this advantage anytime soon because there is no comparable missile available on the market ,and nothing the chinese have to offer can match it.Only latest AIM-120D would be a an equal,and thats off limits.

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## $@rJen

egodoc222 said:


> France on Friday signed the Euro 7.87-billion deal for Rafale fighter jets, equipped with latest missiles and weapon system besides multiple India- specific modifications that will give the IAF cutting edge capability over arch rival Pakistan.
> 
> Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart Jean Yves Le Drian sixteen months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced India's plans to buy 36 Rafale fighter aircraft in fly away condition during his trip to France.
> 
> The deal comes with a saving of nearly 750 million Euros , gained through hard negotiations by the Indian side, over the one struck during the previous UPA government, which was scrapped by the Narendra Modi government, besides a 50 per cent offset clause.
> 
> These combat aircraft, delivery of which will start in 36 months and will be completed in 66 months from the date the contract is inked, comes equipped with state-of-the-art missiles like 'Meteor' and 'Scalp' that will give IAF a capability that had been sorely missing in its arsenal.
> 
> The features that make the Rafale a strategic weapon in the hands of IAF include its Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Meteor air-to-air missile with a range in excess of 150 km.
> 
> Its integration on the Rafale jets will mean IAF can hit targets inside both Pakistan and across the northern and eastern borders while staying within India's territorial boundary.
> 
> Pakistan at present has only a BVR with 80 km range. During the Kargil war, India had used a BVR of 50 km range while Pakistan had none.
> 
> However, Pakistan later acquired 80-km-range BVR, but now with 'Meteor', the balance of power in the air space has again tilted in India's favour.
> 
> 'Scalp', a long-range air-to-ground cruise missile with a range in excess of 300 km, also gives IAF an edge over its adversaries.
> 
> Sources said the "vanilla price" of just the 36 aircraft is about 3.42 billion Euros. The armaments cost about 710 million Euros while Indian specific changes, including integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays, will cost 1,700 million Euros.
> 
> Associate supplies for the 36 fighter jets will cost about 1800 million Euros while performance based logistics will cost about 353 million Euros.
> 
> View attachment 337171



Are you serious


----------



## sathya

PARIKRAMA said:


> Ok folks ET Now had an interview with Eric Trappier.. Here are the tweets and what i headr in interview
> 
> 
> View attachment 337156
> 
> View attachment 337152
> 
> View attachment 337153
> 
> View attachment 337155
> 
> 
> 
> Now what i heard in interview
> 
> Reporter said 15 squad needed, is this 2 order as a way of testing the water
> Trappier said
> Its a batch of 36
> with this we will install an industry base
> with Installed industry, build the capability
> with that get more opportunities
> Translated into orders
> 
> Reporter asked about Local Partnership
> Trappier said
> Coming soon out in public domain
> Prefer developing a private company partnership
> Focussed on investments and developing for a long term
> not only for defence but for civilian market as well
> Capable of meeting exports market via this.
> 
> Reporter Hinting on MII
> Trappier said
> Yes on radar
> majority in India as it gives capability and advantages to India
> 
> Reporters asked for challenges for MII
> Trappier said
> A need to have a long term view as investments are in tools and hum,an capital for developing the skillsets.
> Stabilise the ecosystem producing such aircrafts over the long term
> 50% defence and 50% civilian side focus approiach
> Secondary market for Aeronautics, engg, avionics, sub systems, etc
> 
> Reporter asked for Joint Production of Spare/weapon/etc
> Trappier said
> Hardware, Software ad services to support Indian aircrafts will be localised
> Indian authorities will reveal more details
> 
> Reporter asked for offset details
> Trappier said
> Indian authorities to answer that as cant disclose due to signing NDA with India
> 
> Reporter on Lifetime support
> Trappier said Yes
> Reporter asked for customizations
> Trappier said IAF or MOD to comment on this
> Reporter asked for Line of credit
> Trappier said Gov to Gov talks . cant comment
> Reporter asked about Mirage phasing
> Trappier said at an appropriate time yes but as of now HAl is doinga good job upgrading them.
> Reporter asked for Nuclear capability
> Trappier said
> French aircrafts are designed and capable
> But its outside his domain to comment
> 
> Reporter talked about long Indian time
> Trappier said
> DA is very patient
> DA is working very hard for last 60 years with India and they understand how India works for a long term commitment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 15% amount
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others



Starts from 36 months and ends at 66 months ?
3-5 years ?

For the sake of money ?

----------------------------------

It's was a long sweat and thirst,

Finally 36 numbers isn't close to quench any thirst .

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## #hydra#

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Meteor is the game changer here.It* reversed PAF's one remaining advantage that f-16 AMRAAMs* had ,but those will now be outclassed by meteor which is just a new gen missile with massive range.Nor can PAF equalize this advantage anytime soon because there is no comparable missile available on the market ,and nothing the chinese have to offer can match it.Only latest AIM-120D would be a an equal,and thats off limits.


Not reversed it will in future if paf sleeps for the next 66 months,is the time frame for complete induction of rafales.


----------



## BON PLAN

zambino said:


> So first rafales delivery in 18 months??


NO. Or maybe some french ones... to begin the pilots training.

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## Hephaestus

AUSTERLITZ said:


> AIM-120D


Are you sure. I think PAF already have it.


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## shree835

I am very sure India will go for another 100+ Rafale jet...It is going to be same like SU30-MKI....First India went for couple squadron of MKI... now we have 270+ MKI.

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## Hassan Guy

shree835 said:


> I am very sure India will go for another 100+ Rafale jet...It is going to be same like SU30-MKI....First India went for couple squadron of MKI... now we have 270+ MKI.


France doesn't really have the Capacity to produce that many in a few years


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## Bratva

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Meteor is the game changer here.It reversed PAF's one remaining advantage that f-16 AMRAAMs had ,but those will now be outclassed by meteor which is just a new gen missile with massive range.Nor can PAF equalize this advantage anytime soon because there is no comparable missile available on the market ,and nothing the chinese have to offer can match it.Only latest AIM-120D would be a an equal,and thats off limits.



Have you read the concerns shown by American generals about china recent PL-15 meteor class BVR ? And SD 10 A is not any less capable than current BVR in the markets. How many current BVR provides dual active passive guidance like SD 10 ?

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## egodoc222

Bratva said:


> Have you read the concerns shown by American generals about china recent PL-15 meteor class BVR ? And SD 10 A is not any less capable than current BVR in the markets. How many current BVR provides dual active passive guidance like SD 10 ?


American generals are always "concerned"...so that they can justify trillion dollar f35 and it's allied weapons programmes and to keep em running!



sarjenprabhu said:


> Are you serious


Absolutely!

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## Norge Stronk

Hephaestus said:


> Are you sure. I think PAF already have it.



No they don't. The PAF operates the AIM-120 in previous iterations, but AIM-120D only achieved IOC in the USN and USAF last year and has yet to be fully fielded in their own military.

Pakistan does not have that particular version of AMRAAM.

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## Bratva

egodoc222 said:


> American generals are always "concerned"...so that they can justify trillion dollar f35 and it's allied weapons programmes and to keep em running!
> 
> 
> Absolutely!



That is the lamest explanation i have heard. Until you go through what american general actually said about the PL 15 dont assume it is regarding F 35

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## kaykay

Hassan Guy said:


> France doesn't really have the Capacity to produce that many in a few years


Dassault has capacity to manufacture 33 Rafales/year but due to low orders they are going slow to keep the production running. @Taygibay can explain it better.

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## Kashmiri Pandit

Nilgiri said:


> @Kashmiri Pandit can have that one in the picture


Aye Aye Sir

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## Vergennes



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## zambino

Hassan Guy said:


> France doesn't really have the Capacity to produce that many in a few years


We will produce rest 100+ Rafales in India. Just wait n watch. History is repeating itself jst like SU30 mki procurement

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## egodoc222

Bratva said:


> That is the lamest explanation i have heard. Until you go through what american general actually said about the PL 15 dont assume it is regarding F 35


What I meant is....they always show 'concern' to keep their programmes running or funding for new programmes....
Ever heard for FAMRAAM? It's the ramjet version of aim120d...funding for this project was halted....but the generals are keen to revive it by showing fake concerns!!
China is atleast a decade away from achieving western missile technology!!

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## AKD

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/779279306513981440
Is this True??


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## Agent_47

Towed decoy ?  IRST or OSF ?
@Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Taygibay

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## Hassan Guy

zambino said:


> We will produce rest 100+ Rafales in India. Just wait n watch. History is repeating itself jst like SU30 mki procurement


I doubt the french would allow their frontline fighter be built in India.


----------



## VivasvatManu

Taygibay said:


> It's a sliding rule thing. Total ToT doesn't really happen.
> In a best case scenario as here, Up-to-Date tech is available because
> the next gen is ready to come online. That's rather rare.
> Still, for a given amount of money, you will get screwdriver giri tomorrow,
> full assembly later and your own line in 5 or 8 years.
> For infinite money, you can buy France so the Merignac line becomes MII.
> In between, there is the F-35.



By ToT, I really mean MII. The Idea is to have the aircraft manufactured fully in India sometime in the future so that it is 'sanction proof', not to mention the jobs that will go with it. Unless the aircraft is made 100% in India in the future, larger numbers are unlikely unless PAKFA gets delayed considerable. (This is more than likely)

Since Technology is constantly evolving, ToT does not really make sense anyway. The ability to buy your freedom however makes sense.


----------



## ashok321



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## Agent_47

Hassan Guy said:


> I doubt the french would allow their frontline fighter be built in India.


How old are you kid?

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## kaykay

Hassan Guy said:


> I doubt the french would allow their frontline fighter be built in India.


Well they are more than happy to make it in India if India places a large order

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## Hephaestus

Norge Stronk said:


> No they don't. The PAF operates the AIM-120 in previous iterations, but AIM-120D only achieved IOC in the USN and USAF last year and has yet to be fully fielded in their own military.
> 
> Pakistan does not have that particular version of AMRAAM.


Thanks! for the info.

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## zambino

G


Hassan Guy said:


> I doubt the french would allow their frontline fighter be built in India.


Go through this thread and specially the posts of @PARIKRAMA u will get ur answer. Ceo of dassault and french def minister himself made comments on make in india part.



kaykay said:


> Well they are more than happy to make it in India if India places a large order


No IF No BUT sir, Iaf will order rafale in huge numbers no doubt on that. Iaf have no other option.

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## VivasvatManu

Agent_47 said:


> Towed decoy ?  IRST or OSF ?
> @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Taygibay



So now we know the real price of the Stand alone Rafale. 

*Single seat Rafale is 91.07 Million Euro or 101.8 (~102)Million USD. 

Twin seat Rafale is 94 million Euro i.e. 105 Million USD. 1
*

Any new order will cost more by 3.5% per Year.


----------



## GuardianRED

*Guess Who Got on Al Jazeera*

*India signs $9bn deal to buy French fighter jets*
*World's biggest arms importer agrees to buy 36 jets, ending 18 months of wrangling over terms.*

India had originally awarded Dassault with an order for 126 Rafales in 2012 [EPA]
India has signed a deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from France for around $8.7bn, the country's first major acquisition of combat planes in two decades and a boost for Prime Minister Narendra Modi's plan to rebuild an ageing fleet.

The first ready-to-fly Rafales are expected to arrive by 2019 and India is set to have all 36 within six years.

French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian signed the agreement with his Indian counterpart, Manohar Parrikar, in New Delhi, on Friday, ending almost 18 months of wrangling over terms between New Delhi and manufacturer Dassault Aviation.

Parrikar said the deal would "significantly improve India's strike and defence capabilities".

Air force officials have warned for years of a major capability gap opening up with China and Pakistan without new state-of-the-art planes, as India's outdated and largely Russian-made fleet retires and production of a locally made plane was delayed.

India had originally awarded Dassault with an order for 126 Rafales in 2012 after the twin-engine fourth-generation fighter beat rivals in a decade-long selection process, but subsequent talks collapsed.

Modi, who has vowed to modernise India's armed forces with a $150bn spending spree, personally intervened in April 2015 to agree on the smaller order of 36 and give the air force a near-term boost as he weighed options for a more fundamental overhaul.

But an industry expert says the deal does not stand to benefit India.

"I don't think it's a good deal," *Bharat Karnad*, a research professor in national security studies at the Centre for Policy Reseach, told Al Jazeera.

"The original deal was for 126 aircrafts for a sum of $12-15bn. If you look at 36 being bought for $9bn without any transfer of technology, it ends up being a solution to ensure the health of the aviation sector in France.

"The aircrafts are far too few to have a great operation significance in war."

Al Jazeera's Natacha Butler, reporting from Paris, said there was a lot of lobbying that took place behind the scenes to make this deal happen.

"It's a big deal indeed for France and is expected to create up to 5,000 jobs here," she said.

"The 36 planes will be built here before being sent to India ready for service. At many stages, it looked as if it wasn't going to be signed but the French government and President Francois Hollande have been very instrumental and lobbied hard over the years."

*'Mark of recognition'*
Friday's agreement is a major vote of confidence in the Rafale, which had long struggled to find buyers overseas, despite heavy lobbying efforts by the administration of President Hollande.

Hollande hailed the deal as recognition of France's aviation industry.

"The agreement ... is a mark of the recognition by a major military power of the operational performance, the technical quality and the competitiveness of the French aviation industry," Hollande said in a statement.

India says its locally made Tejas fighter, which took to the skies in July 33 years after it was cleared for development, will form a major part of its future fleet, but Parrikar has also said that India needed 100 new light combat aircraft by 2020 to replace Russian MiG-21s.

India is the world's biggest arms importer, and despite Modi's pledge to build a local manufacturing base, foreign defence firms view India as one of the most lucrative markets as Western states trim defence budgets.

Tensions have flared up between Pakistan and India following the Uri attack last week that killed 17 soldiers in Indian-administered Kashmir.

Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, at his UN General Assembly address on Wednesday, said he did not want an "arms race with India". But Eenam Gambhir, India's UN diplomat called the neighbours "a terrorist state", blaming the neighbouring country of planning the attack in Uri.

Source: Al Jazeera News And Agencies

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/...-buy-french-fighter-jets-160923102728743.html

http://video.aljazeera.com/channels...french-made-rafale-fighter-jets/5138259706001

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Agent_47 said:


> Towed decoy ?  IRST or OSF ?
> @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Taygibay


The old OSF is with a TV channel and an IRST, but OSF-IT, the new OSF is with a TV channel only: this TV channel is on near infrared frequency and we also use MICA seeker for detection and to build tactical situation. This OSF-IT is better than OSF to identify at long range the ennemies, and the French think it is the most important capability because it's generally a weak point in the Kill chain. But it's better to have also an IRST, so for me IAF asked for a new generation IRST to add to OSF-IT, it could be a QWIP IRST developped with SAMTEL in India.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Prime Minister's Office
23-September, 2016 18:48 IST

Defence Minister of France calls on PM

H. E. Mr. Jean-Yves Le Drian, Defence Minister of France called on Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi today. 

Minister Le Drian expressed condolences for the victims of the cross-border terrorist attack at Uri, J&K on 18 September 2016 and expressed resolve to strengthen bilateral counter-terrorism cooperation. He said that France stands with India in the fight against terrorism. 

Minister Le Drian briefed the Prime Minister on the current status of bilateral defence cooperation. 

The Prime Minister welcomed the signing of the inter-governmental agreement on purchase of 36 Rafale aircraft earlier in the day, and called for its speedy and timely implementation. 

***


AKT/AK
(Release ID :151075)

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## Picdelamirand-oil

VivasvatManu said:


> Any new order will cost more by 3.5% per Year.


No the increase in cost is caped at 3.5% by year, that is to say cannot be more than 3.5%. For example if the price is in € and if the general inflation in Europe is 2% you have the right to increase the price by 2% (in Europe currently inflation is below 1%) but if inflation is 4% you only have the right to increase the price by 3.5%.

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## #hydra#

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> The old OSF is with a TV channel and an IRST, but OSF-IT, the new OSF is with a TV channel only: this TV channel is on near infrared frequency and we also use MICA seeker for detection and to build tactical situation. This OSF-IT is better than OSF to identify at long range the ennemies, and the French think it is the most important capability because it's generally a weak point in the Kill chain. But it's better to have also an IRST, so for me IAF asked for a new generation IRST to add to OSF-IT, it could be a QWIP IRST developped with SAMTEL in India.


Is it possible to have pirate irst in rafale?


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## Agent_47

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> The old OSF is with a TV channel and an IRST, but OSF-IT, the new OSF is with a TV channel only: this TV channel is on near infrared frequency and we also use MICA seeker for detection and to build tactical situation. This OSF-IT is better than OSF to identify at long range the ennemies, and the French think it is the most important capability because it's generally a weak point in the Kill chain. But it's better to have also an IRST, so for me IAF asked for a new generation IRST to add to OSF-IT, it could be a QWIP IRST developped with SAMTEL in India.


Is there something already in development in france to start with (QWIP IRST)?


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## Hephaestus

I was just watching Al-Jazeera. Bharat Karnad was going on & on about missed opportunities and what not. He spoke about 4.75 gen  Su-35.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

#hydra# said:


> Is it possible to have pirate irst in rafale?


Every thing is possible but it will cost for nothing. You know the Rafale weapon system integrate all sensors in a data fusion to elaborate the tactical situation. OSF is part of SPECTRA and part of this tactical situation. If you change it you will have to make again the sensor fusion and all tests. And it's not obvious for me that pirate will be better.



Agent_47 said:


> Is there something already in development in france to start with (QWIP IRST)?


*Technology*
*Sofradir: the best imaging technologies that cover the whole IR spectrum.*
In 2013, Sofradir acquired InSb, QWIP and InGaAs technologies from its shareholders Sagem and Thales, which in addition to its flagship MCT technology, means that Sofradir can offer customers the best IR technology most adapted to an application.




My answer will be only an opinion :
The first Rafale IRST was able to use two frequencies, for me this was possible only with MCT technology. DGA found that the performances were low, I think we are developping a new IRST using InGaAS and QWIP for better performance, perhaps we will see it with F3R. I hope so.
InGaAs imaging sensors for high performance applications | Sofradir
QWIP: a highly stable technology | Sofradir

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## egodoc222

Hephaestus said:


> I was just watching Al-Jazeera. Bharat Karnad was going on & on about missed opportunities and what not. He spoke about 4.75 gen  Su-35.


Who is he?

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## Picdelamirand-oil

This situation is considered transient. A new IRST has to be developped and it seems to be planed with SAMTEL:
http://indiastrategic.in/topstories1447_Samtel_to_supply_IRST.htm

This IRST from SAMTEL/THALES will replace the Sagem one using new technologies.
*Sofradir: the best imaging technologies that cover the whole IR spectrum.*
In 2013, Sofradir acquired InSb, QWIP and InGaAs technologies from its shareholders Sagem and Thales, which in addition to its flagship MCT technology, means that Sofradir can offer customers the best IR technology most adapted to an application.

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## Abingdonboy

sathya said:


> ----------------------------------
> 
> It's was a long sweat and thirst,
> 
> Finally 36 numbers isn't close to quench any thirst .


Don't worry about it. Now this 36 deal has been clinched there will be a pivot to MII for at least another 150 units (including IN orders). One can already see there has been a shift in the media and MII is actually being talked about (when as far everyone else was concerned no such thing existed, 36 was the sum total).

India isn't paying 1.5 BN euros for Indian specific upgrades to induct just 36 or 54 jets. This cost ensures hundreds of units.


Remember that 20 years ago the MKI order stood at 40, today there are more than 300 in service or on order (and counting). The Rafale is going to face a similar fate EXCEPT it may find even greater success as;

1) it is demanded by both the IN and IAF
2) will not suffer any of the operational deficiencies as the MKI (from the very outset Dassualt will be mandated to offer at least 75% availability at any time)
3) has FAR lower life cycle costs than the MKI
4) will be inducted at a time when the Indian defence budget is set to expand rapidly (it will be touching $120 BN/year by 2025).

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## VivasvatManu

Abingdonboy said:


> Don't worry about it. Now this 36 deal has been clinched there will be a pivot to MII for at least another 150 units (including IN orders). One can already see there has been a shift in the media and MII is actually being talked about (when as far everyone else was concerned no us thing existed, 36 was the sum total).
> 
> India isn't paying 1.5 euros for Indian specific upgrades to induct just 36 or 54 jets. This cost ensures hundreds of units.
> 
> 
> Remember that 20 years ago the MKI was order stood at 40, today there are more than 300 in service or on order (and counting). The Rafale is going to face a similar fare EXCEPT it may find even greater success as;
> 
> 1) it is demanded by both the IN and IAF
> 2) will not suffer any of the operational deficiencies as the MKI (from the very outset Dassualt will be mandated to offer at least 75% availability at any time)
> 3) has FAR lower life cycle costs than the MKI
> 4) will be inducted at a time when the Indian defence budget is set to expand rapidly (it will be touching $120 BN/year by 2025).




You Forget Close to 100% Su-30MKI is Made in India. So if Rafale has to serve in large numbers, that is what we are looking at. I would not bet on it.

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## Blue Marlin

Vergennes said:


> Congratulations to the indians and dassault !​
> View attachment 337148
> 
> 
> Finally!!​
> View attachment 337147​@GuardianRED @ni8mare @dadeechi @randomradio @Nilgiri @SR-91 @Sri @R!CK @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @SrNair @anant_s @Armani @kmc_chacko @nair @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @mirage @Blue Marlin @mike2000 is back @BON PLAN @ranjeet @surya kiran etc!


frenchy finally !!!!!!! they've done it. now comes the hard part.......the really hard part, local production.

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## PDF

Congratulations! A very dangerous development for our air force. This deal took its time yet created trouble for us. I hope you get the targeted numbers achieved as I want to see how we respond to these developments.

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## SrNair

Vergennes said:


> Congratulations to the indians and dassault !​
> View attachment 337148
> 
> 
> Finally!!​
> View attachment 337147​@GuardianRED @ni8mare @dadeechi @randomradio @Nilgiri @SR-91 @Sri @R!CK @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @SrNair @anant_s @Armani @kmc_chacko @nair @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @mirage @Blue Marlin @mike2000 is back @BON PLAN @ranjeet @surya kiran etc!



Thank you ,France .Even after all these hectic 
negotiations you showed patience and willingness to do business with us .
Finally a good outcome after decade of procurment process.

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## [Bregs]

SrNair said:


> Thank you ,France .Even after all these hectic
> negotiations you showed patience and willingness to do business with us .
> Finally a good outcome after decade of procurment process.



well bro the positive and common strategic interests France found with India started moving in trustful direction when they refused to sanction India after Nuke tests way back in 1998 and later there help in kargil war. French can take place of Russia not US as India's biggest arms suppliers and co producers without risk of sanctions. Submarines, Aircraft career, and many war systems which have been domain of Russia till now can be slowly replaced now by France

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## SrNair

[Bregs] said:


> well bro the positive and common strategic interests France found with India started moving in trustful direction when they refused to sanction India after Nuke tests way back in 1998 and later there help in kargil war. French can take place of Russia not US as India's biggest arms suppliers and co producers without risk of sanctions. Submarines, Aircraft career, and many war systems which have been domain of Russia till now can be slowly replaced now by France



US is a Superpower .So whatever it is ,you wont get much concession from them.Russians dont have money to maintain their. technological advancement for now.Nor we fund it altogether ,sincecwe need to nurture our own industry.
France is almost like us ,Always suspicious towards the motives of US even if they are in NATO.Also has some socialist lineage.
Such a unique character enable them to support us during 1998.
Rafale will become our mainstay medium role fighter for near future until we complete ourv AMCA project.

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## PARIKRAMA

Thales Chief Patrick Caine in a interview with Shereen Bhan show at 9 pm said the following

For Thales, its a strategic partnership with India not a deal
The scope involves cutting edge technology for the Rafales
They are going to invest a lot under MII in Indian companies to build up the chain
TOT is part of contracted terms and possibilities.

+++
Basically the context of the above statement is very important as the deal includes

50% offset clause under which Thales and Dassault Group has to invest in India
The investment is to create a Indian MIC ecosystem to support and build Rafales in India
The offset amounts to Rs29K crores
The deal specifies that out of Rs 29K crores
74 % of this amount or Rs 21460 Crores or approx Euro 2.9 Bn is via local manufacturing of components for meeting this order
It is mandatory to do sourcing of this much amount from local Indian MIC
Also included is a 26% of this amount to share the TOT aspect with local vendors with whom they will have a partnership

Now from the Thales website press release
_Thales provides a number of state-of-the-art equipment and systems aboard the Rafale. They include the RBE2 AESA radar, the Spectra electronic warfare system, optronics, the communication navigation and identification system (CNI), the majority of the cockpit display systems, power generation systems and a logistics support component.
This contract will create hundreds of jobs on Thales manufacturing sites, in particular at Elancourt, Bordeaux, Brest and Etrelles, as well as for numerous partners and sub-contractors.

With a presence in India since 1953, Thales currently employs over 300 people at its Indian branch. The Thales India headquarters is located in New Delhi, and it has other operational offices and sites at Hyderabad, Bangalore, Chennai and Mumbai. Thales plays an essential role in India's growth, by sharing its technology and its expertise on the defense, transportation and aerospace markets. *Thales' strategy of developing its industrial presence in India is in line with the Indian Government's "Make in India" policy. Thales has formed several cooperative partnerships with public and private sector industries. Thales has been closely associated with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for more than 50 years and has formed joint ventures with Samtel, Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) and L&T Technology Services.*

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/defence/press-release/indian-air-force-signs-36-rafale_


@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others

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## Centurion2016

Most posters on here will not appreciate the real win win for india with Rafale

They see the COST and nos only
Thry have no concept of TOT or all the OFFSET clauses which will benefit india with French sharing technology and investing billions back into indian economy.

Thry just don't undetrstand business side of this deal and the future potential

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## ashok321

NEW DELHI: With the deal for 36 Rafalejets in kitty, Dassault Aviation CEO Eric Trappier today said the French company is game for the 'Make in India' initiative and open to manufacturing the fighter aircraft in India if the plane is shortlisted for a bigger order. 

*RELATED VIDEO*





Rafale jets delivery will start in 36 months: Dassault Aviation CEO


He said that with the Indian contract going through, the company feels that more international orders of the plane, capable of carrying nuclear weapons, will come in. 

"It is 36 at the moment. We feel that we can create a strong industrial partnership in India. We know very well the large number of aircraft that the IAF needs," Trappier said in an interview to PTI here. 

He said that Dassault Aviation, manufacturer of the Rafale jets, is committed to the Make in India initiative. 

"Yes, of course. We will see how we can carry forward with the 'Make in India' initiative. We are open to manufacturing Rafales in India," Trappier said when asked if the French firm was willing to manufacture the fighter aircraft in India if the plane was shortlisted for a bigger order. 

The CEO said the company will work with the IAF and the government to see how they can meet India's needs. 

He said the focus was to build an industrial partnership in India for Rafale jets and the 50 per cent offset clause will be of help. 

Defence sources have made it clear that the deal for 36 Rafale jets does not come with an option clause. This means that more orders will come only through fresh talks. 
India had originally wanted 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft for which Rafale was shortlisted. 

However, due to the delay over cost and other issues, the Narendra Modi government decided to go for 36 Rafale jets in fly away condition. 

With India reducing the number, a multi-billion dollar aircraft contract is still in play. 

This has led to fresh pitches from those who lost out on the first deal including Boeing, Saab and Lockheed Martin. 

The sources have said India is looking at shortlisting one more aircraft, besides Tejas, to be manufactured domestically. 

Dassault Aviation hopes that Rafale, a twin-jet fighter aircraft able to operate from both an aircraft carrier and a shore base, makes the cut. 

The fully versatile Rafale is able to carry out all combat aviation missions -- air defence, interception, ground support, in-depth strikes, reconnaissance, anti-ship strikes and nuclear deterrence. 

Rafale entered service with the French Navy in 2004 and with the French Air Force in 2006. In 2015, Egypt and Qatar ordered 24 Rafales each. As of June 30 this year, 152 Rafale aircraft had been delivered.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...lt-ceo-eric-trappier/articleshow/54485007.cms

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## eldamar

> The sources have said India is looking at shortlisting one more aircraft, besides Tejas, to be manufactured domestically.



Grippen?


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## BON PLAN

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Meteor is the game changer here.It reversed PAF's one remaining advantage that f-16 AMRAAMs had ,but those will now be outclassed by meteor which is just a new gen missile with massive range.Nor can PAF equalize this advantage anytime soon because there is no comparable missile available on the market ,and nothing the chinese have to offer can match it.Only latest AIM-120D would be a an equal,and thats off limits.


AIM120 D remain a classical booster missile.

The same weight class Meteor don't have to embark oxydizer (it uses air for that), so Meteor range will always be Superior.

The "problem" is that MBDA claim Meteor is a 100km range missile, but in fact it's far better.

For same Pk, the Meteor range is much better than AIM120 (even "D") or K77.



Hephaestus said:


> Are you sure. I think PAF already have it.


AIM120D is not ready, so not in the P**i arsenal.

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## Taygibay

Hephaestus said:


> Are you sure. I think PAF already have it.



PAF has AIM C-5s. The most modern export version is the C-7.
As NorgeStronk pointed out, no one is slated to receive the D for now but America.
Over time it could seep to top NATO or Pacific partners.



Hassan Guy said:


> France doesn't really have the Capacity to produce that many in a few years



LOL Cute!



kaykay said:


> Dassault has capacity to manufacture 33 Rafales/year but due to low orders they are going slow to keep the production running. @Taygibay can explain it better.



OKAY so for good, one last time, the laydown :

The production line was designed for *3 aircrafts per month*.***
In France, there's a vacation month for all so *33*, not 36, per annum.

Until exports came, the line was at its *lowest setting of 1/month*,
due to the lack of national orders themselves due to budget equilibrium.
Dassault had that 1 per month guaranteed as the lower limit knowing the politicos.

At the 1 per month rhythm, a Rafale takes 3 years to follow/cross that prod line.
Dassault has already begun the ramp-up to 1.8 Acs/month so that this rate is available
later and it could speed up more. At 2 ACs per month, the timeline drops to 2 1/2 years.

The line was not hiked for Egypt & Qatar for different reasons.
Egypt had an immediacy to it so Fr planes on the prod line were diverted to it.
No need to hike the rate as French govt wanted to buy less per year!
In reverse, Qatar is in for the long run and allows ample lead time.
Theirs can begin production now as their standard is the planned F3-R :
A- their systems won't be added for a year and a half to 2 years
& B- the Fr Govt lets the slots go by until ready for the *2018 F3-R*.

India gets 1 a month starting about 18 months from first check in
because it takes 18 months for the line to ramp-up by one monthly aircraft.
All are finished in 39 months so 57 months total, not five years from now.

That's your worst case scenario.
It gets faster with any plane that others don't take on the line.

Side note : if check and MII accord arrive on signing day between Modi and Hollande,
the partial assembly line could be up by then.
​


Agent_47 said:


> Towed decoy ?  IRST or OSF ?
> @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Taygibay



Towed decoy was researched for F3_R. OSF has flavours so forgetting the original, it would
be as Pic said already either OSF-IT or a local Samtel-Thales JV product.
The first is not my preferred choice but has advantages. I prefer simpler decoys and wouldn't
want to drag a giant fishing lure to supersonic if it won't get back in its lodging.
The second was huh, say compulsory! I hope you can go Indo-French.



VivasvatManu said:


> So now we know the real price of the Stand alone Rafale.
> 
> *Single seat Rafale is 91.07 Million Euro or 101.8 (~102)Million USD.
> 
> Twin seat Rafale is 94 million Euro i.e. 105 Million USD. 1*



That would be the stand alone price for your Rafales. So basic fly-away,
+ special indian systems & weapons integration parts like rail launchers
or a local IRST and that HMDS or any Israeli gadgets and so on. OSF?
That's a line replaceable optional piece of kit not in basic fly-away but on
the Indian Rafales so add its unitary price and so on.


And later good people, Tay.

*** It's like your passenger car that has 3 free seats when you go to work in the morning.
You can bring along one or two or three friends. 3 seats/ACs is the capacity of car or line
and rate is how many of these are occupied/being built. It can be idle too if all are empty.

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## BON PLAN

Hassan Guy said:


> France doesn't really have the Capacity to produce that many in a few years


If ceo of Dassault decide it, 33 Rafale can be produced/year in France.... Have India enough money just to baught half of that?



Agent_47 said:


> Towed decoy ?  IRST or OSF ?
> @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Taygibay


First time I read something about towed decoy for rafale....



#hydra# said:


> Is it possible to have pirate irst in rafale?


Absolutely NOT. We can study and produce a same class product. Maybe with India.

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## Hassan Guy

BON PLAN said:


> If ceo of Dassault decide it, 33 Rafale can be produced/year in France.... Have India enough money just to baught half of that?
> 
> 
> First time I read something about towed decoy for rafale....


They need to meet orders for Qatar(24) and Egypt(24), And also more for France. They can only build 33 a year.

India bought 36 off-the-shelf, Which will arrive in 2019 and be completed in 2022.

I don't think they have confirmed for more then 36 as of now.


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## Major d1

After four years of difficult negotiations – as well as even a collapse of talks (over the contract for 126 aircraft) – the Government of India has inked an $8.85 billion U.S. deal with France for 36 Dassault Rafale multi-role fighters. The first batch of fighters will be delivered to India by September 2019, the remainder will be received over the subsequent 30 months.

Within the contract itself, $3.84 billion U.S. will be spent on the aircraft themselves and an additional $2 billion will be put towards the requisite maintenance and logistics infrastructure to operate the fighter. Dassault has also guaranteed that the Indian Air Force (IAF)’s Rafales will maintain a 75% availability rate.

$1.9 billion will be spent on IAF-specific customization, such as the integration of an Elbit helmet-mounted display and sight (HMD/S) system and other internal subsystems.

A munitions package worth $800 million U.S. is also being acquired, this will include Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles and SCALP air-launched cruise missiles.

According to Defense News, which had spoken to a source in the Indian Ministry of Defence, this will be divided with 30% of the contract’s value will be invested in Indian military aeronautics research and development and 20% will be committed towards production contracts for the Indian defence industry.

*Notes, Comments & Analysis:*

When the Indian Air Force (IAF) originally selected Rafale as the winner of its much coveted Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement, it had intended to procure 126 fighters. In addition, most of those fighters were supposed to have been built locally in India.

Disagreements, particularly over cost, resulted in that program falling through, but in its place, the IAF has succeeded in securing two squadrons off-the-shelf as well as a solid commercial offset package, which will channel 50% of the contract’s value as a stimulus for the Indian economy.

Moreover, India’s defence industry will benefit from close to $4.5 billion in commercial offset investments from France’s leading defence vendors. This investment will not only offer work contracts for the Indian private sector but in some areas (e.g. aircraft electronics and propulsion), it could result in an infusion of valuable technology research and development support and expertise.

It would be surprising if the IAF opts for another medium-weight platform. At this stage, the Rafale is a proven and relatively well-adopted platform (thanks to recent orders from Egypt and Qatar). By investing in the maintenance and logistics infrastructure to operate the first two squadrons, the IAF would be well advised to gradually build its Rafale fleet. A look from the Indian Navy could be interesting as well.

Moreover, India’s offset clause could be utilized to accrue supra-contractual benefits. Under the current contract, the French defence industry will commit 20% of the contract’s value to production work in India. However, additional Rafale orders can be leveraged as a means to gain added concessions, such as local assembly and/or manufacturing as well as parts manufacturing, which can, in turn, be connected into the Rafale’s global supply chain. In other words, India could leverage additional orders to access the supply market for third-party users such as Qatar and Egypt.

Technology wise, the Rafale will imbue the IAF will the following operational gains above its current fleet:

First, the Rafale is marketed with a markedly high availability rate (with the French guaranteeing a 75% availability rate), which in contrast to the troubled Su-30MKI offers the IAF a platform it can depend on upon in rapid mobilization as well as under stressful wartime conditions.

Second, the Rafale boasts a very strong balance of range and payload, enabling it to effectively take on a wide range of air-to-air and air-to-surface mission roles (which the IAF will exploit via the Meteor, SCALP, and other munitions).

Third, which is is not exclusive to the Rafale in the context of the IAF, but the fighter’s potent sensor and electronics warfare and countermeasures suite places it as both a highly survivable and threatening asset.

India’s private sector and state-owned industries should be able to draw upon the expertise and technology support of Dassault, Thales, MBDA, and Safran Group, which may enable the Kaveri and other programs to overcome specific developmental challenges in the short-term, which can in turn create space for the Indian research base to rectify those obstacles indigenously over the long-term without pressure from the armed forces’ short-term operational needs.

This will directly feed into the Tejas, enabling it to not only come to fruition but to enter service as the solution the IAF had envisioned in recent years. India’s next-generation manned and unmanned aircraft programs will also benefit in various direct and indirect forms.

Overall, the Rafale contract is certainly expensive, but with 50% of it coming back as a targeted stimulus for the Indian economy, New Delhi secured a worthwhile deal.

Courtesy- http://quwa.org/2016/09/23/india-inks-long-awaited-rafale-deal/

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## PARIKRAMA

Nicely summed up @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Quwa . 

It would be nice if you also cover a bit of Eric Trappier interview and the Make In India hints part. That will expand the article even more surely.

@waz @WAJsal - Request you to merge this thread with sticky thread

@Major d1 - Please collate all information and news about Rafale in the sticky thread

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## monitor



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## Major d1

F-35 is preferable for dog fight ?


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## Major d1




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## Abingdonboy

noksss said:


> wooooooooooooooooohoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy Atleast now you should change your view on parikkar a little bit. I agree that he still has a long way to go but we should give some credit where its due
> 
> @PARIKRAMA Awesome work dude keep rocking


By all accounts the Rafale deal was Modi's brainchild. 

I still hold serious reservations about Parrikar but am hoping to be proven wrong.



PARIKRAMA said:


> *Now some more good news*
> 
> *Sale of Rafale Dassault Aviation "is preparing for a big future" in India*
> 8:31, 23 September 2016, amended to 8:43, September 23, 2016
> 
> After several years of export difficulties, the French Rafale found buyers from India. A first partnership could call others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> INTERVIEW
> *"We are preparing for a great future in India," said Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation *micro Europe 1 on Friday. Well as aircraft tip, the French Rafale have long been shunned by buyers. But that time is now over as the Minister of Defence, Jean-Yves Le Drian and his Indian counterpart to sign the sale of 36 fighter jets Friday.
> 
> "Great pride" for the French Air Force. The manufacturer of the famous Rafale confirmed, those are 36 aircraft to be purchased by India. Jean-Yves Le Drian, the defense minister, is about to sign the historic agreement with his Indian counterpart in New Delhi on Friday. There is talk of a contract to 8 billion euros. The CEO of Dassault recognizes that it is a great pride. "It's a sign of success based on the performance of the aircraft but also the confidence that Indians have given us and a patient since worked hard" for this command. Negotiations began in 2007.
> 
> *A contract that could be the first of many.** If this contract is also interesting for France than for India which will see Dassault reinvest nearly half of its profits in the Indian industry, it could be followed by d 'other. "There is a big demand from the Indian Army and especially the air force. (he meant IAF +IN) So it is also preparing for a great future. That is why we want to have very strong partnerships with Indians today. " **This contract will "initiate a strong cooperation with India in the development of 'make in India' . We wish to settle in India to work the Indians," said Eric Trappier. *
> 
> *http://www.europe1.fr/economie/vent...s-partenariats-forts-avec-les-indiens-2854339*
> 
> +++
> 
> I told you folks !!!
> @Abingdonboy - Where are you MIA Brother
> 
> @Vergennes @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Abingdonboy (where are u MIA bro)
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others


Better late than never bro 


Many thanks for you efforts here, day by day you are proving your oracle credentials!

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## Nilgiri

Abingdonboy said:


> Many thanks for you efforts here, day by day you are proving your oracle credentials!



Yes Parikrama is the single big reason I believe there will be more orders down the road. He will say he is just a messenger, but his message is uncannily linked to what ends up happening hehe.

The many one time costs in this deal by itself should really be an indication. I think modi term 2 will have some really great military programs announced, right now they have to keep to fiscal consolidation and keep the usual brayers in check.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

> The IGA includes the option for 18 supplementary fighters at the same price, taking a flat 3.5% inflation rate into account.


.....


> India is to pay EUR1.7 billion for customising the 36 Rafales to meet 14 IAF requirements, including the integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays, as well as indigenously designed missiles and electronic warfare, datalink, and identification friend-or-foe systems.
> 
> The fighters will also be customised for SPICE bomb-guidance and range-extension kits, which the IAF plans to acquire from Israel's Rafael, IAF sources told _IHS Jane's_ .
> 
> Aircraft spares, hangars, and two maintenance, repair, and overhaul facilities in eastern and northern India are set to cost EUR1.8 billion, while the performance-based logistics (PBL) deal for the fighters is priced at EUR353 million.


http://www.janes.com/article/64054/india-finally-signs-deal-with-france-for-36-rafale-fighters

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> By all accounts the Rafale deal was Modi's brainchild.
> 
> I still hold serious reservations about Parrikar but am hoping to be proven wrong.
> 
> 
> Better late than never bro
> 
> 
> Many thanks for you efforts here, day by day you are proving your oracle credentials!



You were MIA for long bro.. i was worried you went away from the forum...

You are over estimating me



Nilgiri said:


> Yes Parikrama is the single big reason I believe there will be more orders down the road. He will say he is just a messenger, but his message is uncannily linked to what ends up happening hehe.
> 
> The many one time costs in this deal by itself should really be an indication. I think modi term 2 will have some really great military programs announced, right now they have to keep to fiscal consolidation and keep the usual brayers in check.



now you are over estimating me too like @Abingdonboy 

Now challenge comes from two things
By Q3/Q4 we have to release 15% or close to Rs 8850 Crs.
The bigger challenge is next year 25% - Rs 14750 Crs
and then flat 15% per year for 4 more years. - Rs 8850 Crs each year.

Now we must avoid this in future and for that we need an MII line urgently. Bcz then an order will be much less costly and we can spread the costs over multiple years as well.

Fiscal consolidation will be a challenge but i think it will be manageable. The choice of going for another LWF may complicate this structure of course with a similar payment outflow. But then again we dont have a choice.. the replacement and modernization program is a pretty steep climb



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> .....
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/64054/india-finally-signs-deal-with-france-for-36-rafale-fighters









Pic i have hit the mark with almost good precision.






and in another forum

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> You were MIA for long bro.. i was worried you went away from the forum...


Just had my hands full with a new puppy for the last few days bro that's all  




PARIKRAMA said:


> .
> 
> Fiscal consolidation will be a challenge but i think it will be manageable. The choice of going for another LWF may complicate this structure of course with a similar payment outflow. But then again we dont have a choice.. the replacement and modernization program is a pretty steep climb


The more I think about the less likely another LFW (outside of the LCA) seems. 

1) with the tech/help that is coming from the French thanks to the Rafale deal there will be the scope within India to significantly improve the LCA to make it into a match for any other LWF on the market (and significantly cheaper too). 
2) the IN is actually a significant backer of the LCA project they won't even entertain another LFW; the F-16 has no naval variant and the Sea Gripen is a pipe dream whereas the LCA has proven (to a degree) it's carrier credentials and is continuing down this road. 

The issue is production now, if HAL pulls its finger out there won't be a problem with the IAF's strength going foreword. Still expecting the NDA to do something out of the box here (second line with the private sector ?).

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## DavidSling

Which HMD will india integrate?


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## Abingdonboy

DavidSling said:


> Which HMD will india integrate?


DASH IV most likely.

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## Nilgiri

Abingdonboy said:


> The more I think about the less likely another LFW (outside of the LCA) seems.



Yeah same here. I think we should just consolidate with Rafale now. With MII, there can be good economies of scale like parikrama said....which is sorely needed for 90 further craft and then more potentially after that if needed. Combine that with the safran engine cooperation for Kaveri and I think its a no-brainer. 

Premature commitment however will lend too much political bile to certain quarters and may also make the French a bit overconfident in their negotiations later....so I think this current track is fine as long as the strategy is clear within the relevant quarters of the Modi administration.

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## Abingdonboy

VivasvatManu said:


> You Forget Close to 100% Su-30MKI is Made in India. So if Rafale has to serve in large numbers, that is what we are looking at. I would not bet on it.


For all the hype that is made about the MKI being made in India I can assure you there has been actually very little investment made in the Indian support ecosystem for the MKI. Until very recently India was still importing high grade steel for the mki's body and engine parts.

Under the IGA for the Rafale everything is covered from the exacting offset obligations to the availability Dassualt MUST provide India for the Rafale fleet. Just think about the latter part, only in 2016 (20 years later) has India entered into an agreement with Sukhoi to assure the IAF 75% availability for their MKIs(by the way, India will have to pay extra for this privilege) , the Rafale fleet will have this from day ONE (costs included in this contract).

The MKI agreements were far less exhaustive and left plenty of room for Russia to mess with India.

India has at least learnt a lot from past failings and has tightened its clauses and improved its contract negotiation skills/placed more emphasis on this. Gone is the "chalta hai" attitude.

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> Just had my hands full with a new puppy for the last few days bro that's all
> 
> 
> 
> The more I think about the less likely another LFW (outside of the LCA) seems.
> 
> 1) with the tech/help that is coming from the French thanks to the Rafale deal there will be the scope within India to significantly improve the LCA to make it into a match for any other LWF on the market (and significantly cheaper too).
> 2) the IN is actually a significant backer of the LCA project they won't even entertain another LFW; the F-16 has no naval variant and the Sea Gripen is a pipe dream whereas the LCA has proven (to a degree) it's carrier credentials and is continuing down this road.
> 
> The issue is production now, if HAL pulls its finger out there won't be a problem with the IAF's strength going foreword. Still expecting the NDA to do something out of the box here (second line with the private sector ?).



Thats a big challenge bro..I had said this yesterday







I believe there is an article also out in matrubhumi by tarmak writer AK in a similar line of thought but he did spin it with teh saying SP3 is doing taxi runs and so many new modification has happened. _The SP-3 comes with more value additions with around 340 pipelines and 50 panels now achieving ICY or interchangeability standards. (ICY ensures quick replacement of a component without any design changes affecting operational performance.)_ (covered here ;https://defence.pk/threads/tejas-sp-3-ready-for-maiden-flight.450973 - will go to sticky soon)

This is why its a issue. Rafale can get you teh MIC to deliver the LCA better iterations surely. For example the MIC level and skill set improvement directly benefits the eco system and enables a much better component level capability.

But if HAl does not produce only Tejas in good numbers or address productivity issues, its beyond a doubt that a new LWF will come into the MII line too. In simple words, the benefits wont be reaped by LCA but may be a another fighter like Gripen E and F16 or may be LSA. This is my worry. Ultimately only AMCA benefits from the MIC ecosystem creation under such a circumstances.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> Pic i have hit the mark with almost good precision.


Yes it's amazing, sometimes in the last days I had the concern that perhaps you and PDF were a source for Indian newspaper and that explain the correlation of informations. But now your figures are validated by more official sources! Congratulations!!!
I gave the link to janes with an extract, because there is also an interesting description of the Rafale customisation.

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## GuardianRED

Honestly Hope the IAF doesn't go for a second LFW, as it will another type , which is sorry to say is crazy. Continue and support the LCA and its variants, though it will be slow going, i'm sure it will be fruitful in the long run.

Today Is a Good day for the IAF with the inking of the Deal. BUT a sad one for this thread (which like the Tejas Thread once they were inducted) will only be active one in a while when there is some news or report  . 

What is next that we can look forward to?

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> Thats a big challenge bro..I had said this yesterday
> 
> View attachment 337319
> 
> 
> I believe there is an article also out in matrubhumi by tarmak writer AK in a similar line of thought but he did spin it with teh saying SP3 is doing taxi runs and so many new modification has happened. _The SP-3 comes with more value additions with around 340 pipelines and 50 panels now achieving ICY or interchangeability standards. (ICY ensures quick replacement of a component without any design changes affecting operational performance.)_ (covered here ;https://defence.pk/threads/tejas-sp-3-ready-for-maiden-flight.450973 - will go to sticky soon)
> 
> This is why its a issue. Rafale can get you teh MIC to deliver the LCA better iterations surely. For example the MIC level and skill set improvement directly benefits the eco system and enables a much better component level capability.
> 
> But if HAl does not produce only Tejas in good numbers or address productivity issues, its beyond a doubt that a new LWF will come into the MII line too. In simple words, the benefits wont be reaped by LCA but may be a another fighter like Gripen E and F16 or may be LSA. This is my worry. Ultimately only AMCA benefits from the MIC ecosystem creation under such a circumstances.



MIC = Military industrial complex?

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> There is no real value to that. That time can change as Dassault and the partners adapt.
> The incompressible time is the limit when you activate all people and machines needed
> on a 24H clock until the fighter rolls out.
> And that is well below 2+ years, trust me ... even if I'm not Pic!



Maybe new technologies can be introduced in the Indian line for faster production.


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## PARIKRAMA

Nilgiri said:


> MIC = Military industrial complex?


Yes


Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Yes it's amazing, sometimes in the last days I had the concern that perhaps you and PDF were a source for Indian newspaper and that explain the correlation of informations. But now your figures are validated by more official sources! Congratulations!!!
> I gave the link to janes with an extract, because there is also an interesting description of the Rafale customisation.


Indeed i did point to one newspaper source only to have a go as i said earlier in ID F.. And i specfically told them to find about MII plans. Bcz its one of the closely guarded things but enough hints are there. Rest folks among the available one i know surely FB pages lifted many things from here but stuck to weapons at Euro 2 Bn. What was very good is ppl went around to cross check the pointers.

Now interestingly Vishnu Som and Ajai Shukla claimed there is no follow on order. Shiv Aroor pointed Meteor missile and tweeted a pic with the caption Meteor is with EF, Rafale and Gripen. Do you get the hint @Picdelamirand-oil . Its a bit sad that even now attempts are being made and in future it will intensify till officially things are out in public.

When you look at Eric Trappier's smile and i am sure you would know it better as he was your intern, you can see how hard it is for him to remain calm and control and say its just the first batch and not scream on top of his voice and say we got the MII order in bag as well. The expectation from DA is pretty huge and in all probability we will see a big market for new falcon jets with business houses as well. Thales chief's comments supports that view too. This should make ppl realise the big picture. But then you know India and its gullible masses. 

Heck i am sure your own French side wont agree to the most optimistic 300 to moderate 225-180 to lower side 90+36=126 kind of numbers and feel its utter gospel truth. But you knw for sure, without a big order how do you suppose the offset also binding 74% value of local parts procured from MIC and 26% for TOT can be fulfilled. Why would DA and whole group do that unless they know and as Trappier said its first batch of orders and that this contract could be first of many in Europe1.fr posted before

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## Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio said:


> Maybe new technologies can be introduced in the Indian line for faster production.


Fnally I've said India will have to wait 3 years for the first plane , except if production started already, and you have to wait 3 years. All the rumors on a fast delivery were false or cancelled by the delay and the normal time apply. And I think that we will stay at 2 Rafale by month until the MII is signed.

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## Nilgiri

@ranjeet you can ogle a little bit for this 

Its interesting that the CEO said that some may be assembled in some way in India as part of the offset clause. (4.50)

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## Picdelamirand-oil

@PARIKRAMA I would like India and France to design and develop together AMCA - Futur French fighter. The only thing we miss is a market, you will be a big market and we can speed up availability of needed technologies for such a project. Win win situation.

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Fnally I've said India will have to wait 3 years for the first plane , except if production started already, and you have to wait 3 years. All the rumors on a fast delivery were false or cancelled by the delay and the normal time apply. And I think that we will stay at 2 Rafale by month until the MII is signed.



Yeah, it appears so. The 36 month delivery was for the F3+.


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## PARIKRAMA

@Picdelamirand-oil 
By the towed decoy, does it mean LEA (leurre électromagnétique actif)

_As part of the aforementioned phased approach to improve the Incas kit Rafale French defense procurement agency began a research program on thrown rf trap, which was first introduced at the Paris Air Show in 2013. New radiofrequency trap developed by MBDA, was designated LEA (leurre electromagnetique actif). "The air vehicle" is currently being tested, and the company Thales, is expected to take part in this project, although it is not presented for official confirmation. _







roughly translated
The first experiments lures active electromagnetic (also called "jammers dumped ") took place in France in the middle of the decade 1990 in the context of developments exploratory led by Matra Défense & Thomson-CSF one hand and
Dassault Electronics, on the other hand, under the aegis of the DGA. It was to equip aircraft weapons capacity
to lure active RF threats or semi-active sophisticated, creating an angular interference. Although the results of these exploratory developments have been very successful, they have unfortunately not been followed at the time by a product of industrialization. Prototype LEA Th-CSF Matra Défense 90 (MBDA Photo) The PEA INCAS DGA, running by MBDA
France and Thales uses the concepts of the time, because the operational need still exists, but taking advantage of
latest technological advances, especially in the areas of technology and components DRFM MMIC.
We bet that this time will be at the complete success appointments with a start of production. The work carried out as part of INCA could possibly also serve a different need: the decoy IR missiles discrimination capability kinematics, the LEA vehicle and the means ejection may become common to both applications. History will tell whether this synergy will materialize!

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> Maybe new technologies can be introduced in the Indian line for faster production.



That's highly unlikely but there's a fix.
Whatever the activity of the Indian line, it can be built for a bigger output
than the Mérignac line. Providers back in France will adapt on their own.

Going back to my car analogy, you could build a 7 seats monospace SUV.
With a doubled maximum standard capacity, it could churn out 6 Rafales a year.

Good evening, Tay.

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> @PARIKRAMA I would like India and France to design and develop together AMCA - Futur French fighter. The only thing we miss is a market, you will be a big market and we can speed up availability of needed technologies for such a project. Win win situation.


That is what i have always recommend to the MOD/GOI. In fact i have openly advocated it here as well. USe the Dassault group expertise and make the AMCA. I dont believe such a strategic cooperation is possible with USA and nor i think FGFA will enable us almost all tech as we need. the credible alternative is max from France and limited from Israel and Russia. Thats the basic abstractive idea.

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> @PARIKRAMA I would like India and France to design and develop together AMCA - Futur French fighter. The only thing we miss is a market, you will be a big market and we can speed up availability of needed technologies for such a project. Win win situation.



ADA won't agree. They will accept Dassault as a design consultant, but full indigenization is a priority. The plan has already been developed.

What's more realistic is a Rafale replacement JV, with hypersonic speed, near space capability etc. This requirement will come up in 5 years, after the completion of the scramjet propulsion tech. DRDO's already completed the feasibility study of this class of technology a few years ago. So something that can be inducted around 2035.

Otoh, AMCA is a VLO version of Rafale, with shaping and IWBs, it won't be a huge step up as a future French fighter.



Taygibay said:


> That's highly unlikely but there's a fix.
> Whatever the activity of the Indian line, it can be built for a bigger output
> than the Mérignac line. Providers back in France will adapt on their own.
> 
> Going back to my car analogy, you could build a 7 seats monospace SUV.
> With a doubled maximum standard capacity, it could churn out 6 Rafales a year.
> 
> Good evening, Tay.



Yeah, I pointed that out long ago and you attacked me for it. Good to know you are on board too.



PARIKRAMA said:


> @Picdelamirand-oil
> By the towed decoy, does it mean LEA (leurre électromagnétique actif)
> 
> _As part of the aforementioned phased approach to improve the Incas kit Rafale French defense procurement agency began a research program on thrown rf trap, which was first introduced at the Paris Air Show in 2013. New radiofrequency trap developed by MBDA, was designated LEA (leurre electromagnetique actif). "The air vehicle" is currently being tested, and the company Thales, is expected to take part in this project, although it is not presented for official confirmation. _
> 
> 
> View attachment 337344
> 
> 
> roughly translated
> The first experiments lures active electromagnetic (also called "jammers dumped ") took place in France in the middle of the decade 1990 in the context of developments exploratory led by Matra Défense & Thomson-CSF one hand and
> Dassault Electronics, on the other hand, under the aegis of the DGA. It was to equip aircraft weapons capacity
> to lure active RF threats or semi-active sophisticated, creating an angular interference. Although the results of these exploratory developments have been very successful, they have unfortunately not been followed at the time by a product of industrialization. Prototype LEA Th-CSF Matra Défense 90 (MBDA Photo) The PEA INCAS DGA, running by MBDA
> France and Thales uses the concepts of the time, because the operational need still exists, but taking advantage of
> latest technological advances, especially in the areas of technology and components DRFM MMIC.
> We bet that this time will be at the complete success appointments with a start of production. The work carried out as part of INCA could possibly also serve a different need: the decoy IR missiles discrimination capability kinematics, the LEA vehicle and the means ejection may become common to both applications. History will tell whether this synergy will materialize!
> 
> 
> View attachment 337345



This is not a towed decoy, it is ejected from the aircraft like chaff.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> @Picdelamirand-oil
> By the towed decoy, does it mean LEA (leurre électromagnétique actif)
> 
> _As part of the aforementioned phased approach to improve the Incas kit Rafale French defense procurement agency began a research program on thrown rf trap, which was first introduced at the Paris Air Show in 2013. New radiofrequency trap developed by MBDA, was designated LEA (leurre electromagnetique actif). "The air vehicle" is currently being tested, and the company Thales, is expected to take part in this project, although it is not presented for official confirmation. _
> 
> 
> View attachment 337344
> 
> 
> roughly translated
> The first experiments lures active electromagnetic (also called "jammers dumped ") took place in France in the middle of the decade 1990 in the context of developments exploratory led by Matra Défense & Thomson-CSF one hand and
> Dassault Electronics, on the other hand, under the aegis of the DGA. It was to equip aircraft weapons capacity
> to lure active RF threats or semi-active sophisticated, creating an angular interference. Although the results of these exploratory developments have been very successful, they have unfortunately not been followed at the time by a product of industrialization. Prototype LEA Th-CSF Matra Défense 90 (MBDA Photo) The PEA INCAS DGA, running by MBDA
> France and Thales uses the concepts of the time, because the operational need still exists, but taking advantage of
> latest technological advances, especially in the areas of technology and components DRFM MMIC.
> We bet that this time will be at the complete success appointments with a start of production. The work carried out as part of INCA could possibly also serve a different need: the decoy IR missiles discrimination capability kinematics, the LEA vehicle and the means ejection may become common to both applications. History will tell whether this synergy will materialize!
> 
> 
> View attachment 337345


No LEA is a little bit different from a Towed decoy


> Unlike a towed decoy *which remains attached to the aircraft,* the LEA is ejected like a chaff.


http://rafalenews.blogspot.fr/2013/06/rafale-developement-tragedac-and-lea.html

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## Nilgiri



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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> Yeah, I pointed that out long ago and you attacked me for it. Good to know you are on board too.



No, I didn't "attack you". I said it wasn't under consideration then.
It still isn't AFAIK.

There is no technical limit except that money and time rise with the output number.

Tay.

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> No LEA is a little bit different from a Towed decoy
> 
> http://rafalenews.blogspot.fr/2013/06/rafale-developement-tragedac-and-lea.html





randomradio said:


> This is not a towed decoy, it is ejected from the aircraft like chaff.



Can you folks post me towed decoy pics


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## The Eagle

VivasvatManu said:


> I think at this time even pakistan deserves a small thanks for making this happen.



I am sure you have to share more of such details openly for better understanding and peace among 2 nations, enlighten us.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> Can you folks post me towed decoy pics







http://www.sps-aviation.com/story_issue.asp?Article=927

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## PARIKRAMA

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> http://www.sps-aviation.com/story_issue.asp?Article=927


ya i searched and gt for EF
According to the information released by Eurofighter, the TRD is attached to the pod using a Fibre Optic link used to send commands to the decoy radio frequency emitter to produce jamming signals required to lure the missile away from the “parent aircraft”.

Even if the Eurofighter website contains several diagrams showing the Typhoon’s towed decoy, no image can be found of the decoy being towed by a plane, except the following ones taken by Gian Luca Onnis (_during an unclassified test – image released_).








https://theaviationist.com/2012/04/16/towed-decoy/


and this

*Towed Decoys:*

The towed decoy was developed by the Naval Research Laboratory in the early 1980s. The core of towed decoys is a transmitter that amplified and retransmit all signal it received thus it appear like an attractive target with high RCS on adversary radar. When deployed, the decoy is towed behind the host aircraft, protecting the aircraft and its crew against RF-guided missiles by luring the missile toward the decoy and away from the intended target. In layman term , towed decoys are small transmitters being drag behind aircrafts.











_*Advantages:*_


Decoys are towed behind aircraft with a cable so they move at the same speed as parent aircraft , as a result doppler effect does not help distinguish decoys from the real target.
Towed decoys are often stored within wing pylons ,wing tip pod or aircraft fuselage thus do not affect aircraft weapons load
_*Disadvantages:*_


After deployment decoys stay at a distance and connected to aircraft by a cable , thus limiting aircraft agility to low G maneuver.
Decoys are towed thus it will always stay behind the real platform hence, missiles with 2-ways datalink or command guide can render towed decoy ineffective (because adversary SAM operator, pilot can choose which target for missiles to attack).
Towed decoys rely totally on it’s own internal component ( processor, battery,and antenna) thus lacking the processing , jamming power , and directivity of ECM pod or aircraft internal ECM system.




*Fiber optic towed decoys (FOTD):*

Fiber optic towed decoys are upgraded variants of towed decoys. While traditional towed decoys rely totally on it’s own electronic components to response enemy threats, fiber optic decoys have a fiber-optics connection allow it to rely on aircraft on-board radio frequency countermeasures system.Aircraft onboard electric warfare (EW ) system is designed to receive radar signals from potential threat emitters via antennas on the forward and aft sections of the aircraft and to generate an electronic countermeasures response to the threat. Jamming may use either onboard transmitter ( jamming antenna on aircraft ) or the off-board transmitting capabilities of the FOTD decoy. For the off-board response, a jamming signal is generated by onboard EW equipment and provided to a decoy towed behind the aircraft for amplification and transmission. To reach the decoy, the signal is converted to light and transmitted down a fiber-optic link to the decoy. In the decoy, the light signal is converted back to RF, amplified, and transmitted using antennas integral inside the decoy. While antique towed decoys often only capable of amplifying and retransmit adversary radar signal , modern fiber optic towed decoys can transmit any and all signal that the aircraft’s onboard countermeasure system capable of generating ( from simple noise jamming techniques to complex deceptive jamming techniques )

Example diagram of FOTD systems:


















_*Advantages:*_


Decoys is towed by aircraft thus cannot be distinguished by Doppler effect
Thanks to the fiber optics link with aircraft’s onboard electric warfare system , the decoys is capable of generating very complex jamming signals
Provide safety for carried aircraft when facing missiles in Home on Jam mode
_*Disadvantages:*_


After deployment decoys stay at a distance and connected to aircraft by a cable , thus limiting aircraft agility to low G maneuver.
Due to small size ( antenna and TWT ) , FOTD lack the jamming power of ECM pods and aircraft internal jamming systems


_About HOJ : For modern radio guided missiles , if at any point during the missiles time-of-flight the target starts to use electronic counter-measures , the missiles can switch its tracking mode to home-on-jam , When this occurs the missiles homes in on the direction of the jamming signal, guiding it to the point where the onboard radar ‘burns through’ the jamming and re-acquires the radar. When in the home-on-jam mode the missiles interlace the active pulses of the radar with passive guidance from the home-on-jam equipment.The HOJ mode does not provide as good a Pk the normal active guidance however because missiles cannot determine target velocity or distance from target , they are unable to perform lead intercept ( missiles range in this mode is limited too because missiles cannot follow a ballistics arcs to conserve energy ) ._


https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com/2016/03/29/electronic-countermeasure-ecm/

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## #hydra#

PARIKRAMA said:


> *That is what i have always recommend to the MOD/GOI*. In fact i have openly advocated it here as well. USe the Dassault group expertise and make the AMCA. I dont believe such a strategic cooperation is possible with USA and nor i think FGFA will enable us almost all tech as we need. the credible alternative is max from France and limited from Israel and Russia. Thats the basic abstractive idea.


Slightly offtopic,Any chances for further tension escalation,I mean uri attack and developments.


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## Agent_47

PARIKRAMA said:


> Can you folks post me towed decoy pics


Checkout this video -

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> Can you folks post me towed decoy pics



Something like this:

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## C130

Nilgiri said:


> Something like this:




is that an ALE-50?? 

I wonder if Rafale will get Britecloud in the future?

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## Picdelamirand-oil

C130 said:


> is that an ALE-50??
> 
> I wonder if Rafale will get Britecloud in the future?


No LEA is the same kind of decoy

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> Can you folks post me towed decoy pics

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> Even if the Eurofighter website contains several diagrams showing the Typhoon’s towed decoy, no image can be found of the decoy being towed by a plane, except the following ones taken by Gian Luca Onnis (_during an unclassified test – image released_).



The concept video in Agent 47 post is quite good I think to give a basic idea. Clear up close photos will be difficult I think.

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## Abingdonboy

In light of all of these technical questions I have but one query, where do I get this badge:






 

@PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri @anant_s @Taygibay @Vergennes @BON PLAN @Picdelamirand-oil

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## Taygibay

LEA looked like this when outed at Le Bourget 2013 :






And 30 years back, Rafale looked like this :




​GN all, Tay.
​

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## VivasvatManu

Abingdonboy said:


> For all the hype that is made about the MKI being made in India I can assure you there has been actually very little investment made in the Indian support ecosystem for the MKI. Until very recently India was still importing high grade steel for the mki's body and engine parts.
> 
> Under the IGA for the Rafale everything is covered from the exacting offset obligations to the availability Dassualt MUST provide India for the Rafale fleet. Just think about the latter part, only in 2016 (20 years later) has India entered into an agreement with Sukhoi to assure the IAF 75% availability for their MKIs(by the way, India will have to pay extra for this privilege) , the Rafale fleet will have this from day ONE (costs included in this contract).
> 
> The MKI agreements were far less exhaustive and left plenty of room for Russia to mess with India.
> 
> India has at least learnt a lot from past failings and has tightened its clauses and improved its contract negotiation skills/placed more emphasis on this. Gone is the "chalta hai" attitude.



1. Su 30 is not made of 'steel', its made of Aluminium and Titanium. Its the contract, which mandates that all raw materials must be sourced from Russia. This is not so bad. 

2. The 'ecosystem' is HAL and they have invested enough to manufacture Su 30MKI in India. 

3. Only 20% of Rafale will be sourced from India. For this to grow to a 100% is a LONG way off. 

4. IAF REFUSED to pay for additional spares from HAL THAT is why Su 30 MKI serviceability was low. IAF assumes its their privilege to get spares and HAL was expected to spend from its own pocket and produce spares which it did not do. 

5. MKI agreement was less specific, but was in good faith and DID allow us to produce the aircraft right from raw material. 

6. This new lack of 'chalta hai' attitude you find it NOT institutional, its ONLY because of the new Modi govt. When this govt. goes in time (and it will), this attitude too will disappear.

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## Kinetic

Cost 8.7 billion
Aircrafts 36 
Can carry hydrogen bombs 
AESA radar, Electronic warfare and decoys 
Missiles : Meteor 150 km, Scalp EG 300 km, Mica IR
First delivery: before Aug 2019 
Last delivery: Dec 2021 
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/india-france-conclude-rafale-deal/article9140011.ece

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## Kinetic

RBE2 AESA
https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/aesa_rbe2_5_juin_val_def_bat_ok.pdf

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## Tipu7

What is point of Storm shadow if Air Launched version of Brahmos is already on its way? (via Su30)
Or is IAF is looking for diversity of choice?
And how many Rafael B and C versions among these 36?


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## Hellfire

@Bilal Khan 777 

Sir.

I think you are wasting way too much time responding there. You are more suitable here!

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## jupiter2007

*India media is reporting that Pakistan is going to buy Yak-130 and Su-35 from Russia by the end of 2016, also Russia is going to allow Pakistan to build Mi-35 locally.*


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## Hephaestus

egodoc222 said:


> Who is he?



Precisely .

He runs a blog on defence and strategic affairs. Unending list of qualifications. Anti-Rafale to a fault.
https://bharatkarnad.com/about/


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## Bilal Khan 777

hellfire said:


> @Bilal Khan 777
> 
> Sir.
> 
> I think you are wasting way too much time responding there. You are more suitable here!


Very interesting participants and opinions. Thanks.

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## LOGICAL BOSSS

Published September 24, 2016
SOURCE: PTI






*France has offered to help India revive the unsuccessful Kaveri engine project for indigenous Tejas aircraft and a host of other high-end collaborations as part of the offsets in the 7.87 billion euro Rafale fighter plane *deal.The deal comes with a 50 per cent offset clause which means that Indian companies, big and small, will get businesses worth over 3 billion euros.

Defence sources said that one main point of the offset was that 74 per cent of it has to be imported from India.




This means a lot of business and job opportunities in India, sources said.

They added that the offset, spread over a period of seven years, will be finalised soon.

“The offset clause of 50 per cent in the Rafale deal will provide a great opportunity for indigenous manufacturers such as us who have put in years of effort in developing world class technology within the country.

“It further outlines the commitment made by the Indian government to promote the Indian manufacturing industry and support indigenisation of defence needs of the country,” Samtel Avionics MD and CEO Puneet Kaura said.

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## Hellfire

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Very interesting participants and opinions. Thanks.




Your opinions and insights would be appreciated here, and at time you will be challenged tiresomely, but I assure you, it shall be worth your time and more a suitable platform for you

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## hassamun

Great clause...Will help India in the long run...


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## Bilal Khan 777

hellfire said:


> Your opinions and insights would be appreciated here, and at time you will be challenged tiresomely, but I assure you, it shall be worth your time and more a suitable platform for you



Many of the participants from across the border are quite disrespectful. This leaves no room for discussion. I will be open to give opinion on any solicited question based on my view of the world.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Abingdonboy said:


> In light of all of these technical questions I have but one query, where do I get this badge:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri @anant_s @Taygibay @Vergennes @BON PLAN @Picdelamirand-oil


JYLD

MODI: The partnership between France and India moved at the pace of a man walking, he will now move at the speed of a Rafale

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## Hellfire

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Many of the participants from across the border are quite disrespectful. This leaves no room for discussion. I will be open to give opinion on any solicited question based on my view of the world.



That is why sir, I suggested you move here, ignore the uncouth ones .... excellent lot here.

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## eldamar

The rafales is a decent bird, even though it's not the only decent 1s of its class and capabiltiies out there. Any attempt to point out so woudl be pure marketing gimmick.
So come on guys, im sure the Indian government has its good reasons why it chose the Rafales. I must have been satisfactorily good enough for them to do so.

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## Bilal Khan 777

Congratulations to India on this landmark achievement. This will change the Defense Industrial Complex in India and the sub-continent forever. Further, it will rapidly erode the comfort zones of many across the border, and challenge them to take drastic steps. However, the French will also ensure that their financial interests are protected. Good luck to IAF for inducting and realizing what is a wonderful kit from France.

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## T90TankGuy

jupiter2007 said:


> *India media is reporting that Pakistan is going to buy Yak-130 and Su-35 from Russia by the end of 2016, also Russia is going to allow Pakistan to build Mi-35 locally.*


Really ? could you give us some links?


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## Hellfire

Hephaestus said:


> I was just watching Al-Jazeera. Bharat Karnad was going on & on about missed opportunities and what not. He spoke about 4.75 gen  Su-35.




Most are funded by front companies aka act as indirect brokers.

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## VivasvatManu

#hydra# said:


> Link?



Why do you need a 'link' ? ........ he has just posted his "shopping list"

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## Indrajit

VivasvatManu said:


> Why do you need a 'link' ? ........ he has just posted his "shopping list"



One where the money for all that will come from the heavens presumably.....so "window shopping" & drooling list only......



VivasvatManu said:


> 1
> 6. This new lack of 'chalta hai' attitude you find it NOT institutional, its ONLY because of the new Modi govt. When this govt. goes in time (and it will), this attitude too will disappear.



Unfortunately, very true.

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## BON PLAN

Hassan Guy said:


> They need to meet orders for Qatar(24) and Egypt(24), And also more for France. They can only build 33 a year.
> 
> India bought 36 off-the-shelf, Which will arrive in 2019 and be completed in 2022.
> 
> I don't think they have confirmed for more then 36 as of now.


only 33 per year !!! excuse me but how many Tejas does HAL producing per year ? I know it's sarcastic.


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## Echo_419

BON PLAN said:


> only 33 per year !!! excuse me but how many Tejas does HAL producing per year ? I know it's sarcastic.




You are a 1st world Industrial power, don't compare us with you


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## PARIKRAMA

*Please stick to Rafale only*

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## BON PLAN

Major d1 said:


> F-35 is preferable for dog fight ?


 it's a flying brick !!!


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## jupiter2007

zambino said:


> You forgot to add yasen class submarine, pakfa stealth fighter(jst because it has' pak' in it), bulava ballastic missile, su 47, new russian aircraft carrier too etc etc.


Pakistani retired general has confirmed on live news show that Pakistan is working on defence deal with Russia and he specifically mentioned Yak-130, Su-35 and mi-35 helicopter. This video is available on Youtube.

Pakistan doesn't need aircraft carrier, and no submarines from Russia since 8 are coming from China. 

Russia - some of the stuff from the above list
Turkey - Corvette/frigate, Helicopter, ECM, antiTank missile, UAV tech and many more.
China - ships, submarines, J-31, and Lots of stuff.
Italy - radar, uav tech.


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## BON PLAN

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Fnally I've said India will have to wait 3 years for the first plane , except if production started already, and you have to wait 3 years. All the rumors on a fast delivery were false or cancelled by the delay and the normal time apply. And I think that we will stay at 2 Rafale by month until the MII is signed.


A faster delivery isn't possible as made for Egypt? 
4 twin seater in a french definition, later upgraded, taken from the french back log to begin the pilot training in India ???

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## T-Rex

*I thought the number was 189! Only 36 does not look right.*


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## Hassan Guy

BON PLAN said:


> only 33 per year !!! excuse me but how many Tejas does HAL producing per year ? I know it's sarcastic.


India is an arms importer not an exporter, Its the opposite in the case of France.


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## randomradio

X posting from another forum.

From Trappier, Dassault CEO:
_France is not USA, if we want to sell a plane, this plane has to be a good one. _

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## The Eagle

Congrats to India for beautiful bird. The same induction/deal may rise up the competition for many in the region while warranting the necessity of up-gradation and stepping up and through the same, we will be seeing more new capable platforms or weaponry to be inducted by time. Congrats once again.

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## DavidSling

Looking forward to see our future air exercises with India - F35-I's against Indian Rafales

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## Abingdonboy

Tipu7 said:


> What is point of Storm shadow if Air Launched version of Brahmos is already on its way? (via Su30)
> Or is IAF is looking for diversity of choice?
> And how many Rafael B and C versions among these 36?


For now the Brahmos-A can only be fired from 40 specially modified MKIs and that too along the centreline. It will not be until the Brahmos-NG that more platforms (Rafale, MiG-29K etc) will be able to carry the Brahmos ALCM and that too multiple units. The Brahmos NG is still at least 5 years away. 

India's Rafales will be able to fire the SCALP ALCM from day one (Ie sometime in 2019) and at too multiple such missiles. I don't think the Rafale will be able to fire the Brahmos before 2025.

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## DavidSling

Abingdonboy said:


> For now the Brahmos-A can only be fired from 40 specially modified MKIs and that too along the centreline. It will not be until the Brahmos-NG that more platforms (Rafale, MiG-29K etc) will be able to carry the Brahmos ALCM and that too multiple units. The Brahmos NG is still at least 5 years away.
> 
> India's Rafales will be able to fire the SCALP ALCM from day one (Ie sometime in 2019) and at too multiple such missiles. I don't think the Rafale will be able to fire the Brahmos before 2025.


Israel's spice 250 too I believe

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## saumyasupratik

R!CK said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy
> 
> Might turn out to be a bit of controversy, but LCA now uses Elbit Targo HMDS and not DASH. Were you guys aware of this? However, I'd expect the Rafales to operate the same HMDS as Mirages, atleast for now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://elbitsystems.com/product/targo/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good Day!



A bunch of horse-crap. It's still using the DASH III.



GuardianRED said:


> Honestly , from videos (Eg: Bahrain Airshow) The HMDS looks like the Elbit Targo HMDS.
> (Unless both Targo and DASH looks the same)



There are no bolts on the back of the TARGO HMS and it's visor interface is different.

*These are from the R-73 shoot in April 2013.*










*From Aero India 2015.*





*From Bahrain 2016.*










From this video you can correlate the back of the helmet with one from the April 2013 R-73 launch photos, they both match. TARGO itself was revealed sometime in 2014 so it's anachronistic. Also the Targos visor is different.

*A TARGO Fighter for comparison.*

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## PARIKRAMA



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## Agent_47

DavidSling said:


> Looking forward to see our future air exercises with India - F35-I's against Indian Rafales


Oh wait..

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## Ankit Kumar 002

T-Rex said:


> *I thought the number was 189! Only 36 does not look right.*



*I thought Turkey was going to get 100+ F35s, but orders are only single digit?Doesn't look right. 

Ouch!!!!!*

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## PARIKRAMA

*Rafale deal will bring good business for us: Samtel chief*

Defence MSME major Samtel Avionics is betting big on the Indian market even as the Indian defence industry is poised for a quantum leap, says Puneet Kaura, MD and CEO, Samtel Avionics. The Samtel Avionics, which has a joint venture with Thales, is exploring various options to meet the offset obligations of Dassault Aviation that manufactures Rafale jets. In an interview with BusinessLine, he said procurement of the French Rafale fighter jets will bring big business for the firm. Excerpts:

*Now that the $8-billion Rafale deal is in place, what benefit does it bring to you?
*
We have the same aim for Rafale that is similar to our Mirage upgrade experience. In Rafale, w*e are looking at supplying infra red search and track system, some work on the electronic warfare suite, we are also looking at avionics, including computers and displays*. This was also our original plan when the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) was in discussions. I don’t see any reason why it should change.

*But the procurement of these jets will be done in flyaway condition. How will this benefit you?

Rafale will bring big business to the Indian market. They need offsets and this will stretch beyond 2018-19, which is the time required to set up and start manufacturing things like this. There will still be a pipeline of 130-140 more planes to be made for the global market. And plus, let’s say India buys two more squadrons then it comes back to 167-170 planes. And then, they can always use the last leg, the last 6-10 aircraft they can still use even if the timeline is short for manufacturing from India.*

*Does the scaling down of the project from 126 jets to 36 impact you?
*
See we are starting somewhere at least. It has been 15 years that this discussion is going on. We have to look at the reality. The initial plan was too ambitious.

*Of late biggies such as Lockheed Martin, SAAB and Boeing all have expressed their intention to set up their assembly lines here. What kind of opportunities does that bring for MSMEs like you?
*
We are working with all consortium partners. We are already engaged with many of them as supplier. So these will augment our business. We are engaged with a lot of American, Russian, European and Israeli companies.

*Tell us about your Mirage 2000 upgrade experience?
*
This was a good experience. We were able to set up a world-class production line similar to what they have in France, transferred the technology and manufactured about 21-22 ship sets. Now we are looking at all the other Mirages that are coming up that will be using this facility for this product for global supply chain. Then there are whole lot of indirect offsets that we are planning to do. We are looking at developing global supply chains for locally designed, developed products. The product lines for those are under discussions right now. This is what we call ‘Go Global.’

*For MSMEs like you won’t Make-II be more beneficial where the projects are fully funded?
*
This is definitely more beneficial. Once the product is developed it is easier for the government to invest. Make-II gives more confidence to the supplier that the customer will buy because it will be based on a contract with a timeline.

*What is your opinion on how the Strategic Partnerships chapter is shaping up? The government is yet to finalise it and it seems the big firms are opposed to having only one SP in one segment?
*
See part of the problem is that every category there is a PSU that exists. I do not think we have the market for two SPs. It is not an easy task. Let’s see how it unfolds. But they are first looking at fighters to start with the SPs because there is a huge gap there. So let us see how it goes.

*Now that you have gained a deep foothold in the market, are you planning to expand your portfolio?
*
In the electronic space, we are already looking at avionics that includes cockpit avionics and electronics that go into back-end of the aircraft. We are looking at sensor suites, high-end sensors, so we are looking at multiple product lines. Then there is vehicle electronics such as armoured vehicles and tanks. Still there is huge shortage of players in electronic space and then there is huge demand also for electronics.

*Are there any plans to expand production units?
*
We have three production units. These are independent to each other. Instead of going for JVs, we are now looking for joint working groups by either through ToT and giving royalty to foreign OEMs or joint manufacturing without equity infusion.

(This article was published on September 23, 2016)

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...siness-for-us-samtel-chief/article9141228.ece

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Norge Stronk said:


> Try not to pay too much mind to the orders number. Norway has only funded the order of less then 20, but it's buying (has authorized) 52 F-35s to replace our F-16s on a one-to-one basis.
> 
> It's natural to only fund a certain amount, receive and integrate them into combat units and get familiar with them, then fund the rest. You don't want to place orders for systems that'll have issues while in service. Nation's order a small number, trial and test them in limited or IOC service then decide whether or not to pursue additional orders... and more often then not they do.



He was trying something else , replied him in his own words. 

Never mind , the reasons as you said are obvious , that some don't understand while others don't want to.

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## Side-Winder

Just a quick question - Will any of the rafales be manufactured in India or not?


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## spectribution

Side-Winder said:


> Just a quick question - Will any of the rafales be manufactured in India or not?



Later when hullabaloo dies down. 80 + will be contracted for manufacture after 2021.

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## Hassan Guy

Side-Winder said:


> Just a quick question - Will any of the rafales be manufactured in India or not?



Off the Shelf Purchase....

After the Grand Success of Make in India, the new campaign is in full effect "Buy from Several Countries"


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## Side-Winder

spectribution said:


> Later when hullabaloo dies down. 80 + will be contracted for manufacture after 2021.



is it part of the deal signed?


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## Abingdonboy

Side-Winder said:


> is it part of the deal signed?


Not really but this off the shelf purchase lays the groundwork. Dassualt are in talks separately to manufacture >90 Rafales in India (as confirmed by their CEO in Febuary).

The IAF would not be spending 1.8bn EUR on Indian specific upgrades for their Rafales if they were only going to go for 36 units. Such a high cost of Indian specific upgrades only makes sense when spread out over a far larger fleet.

Combined orders for the IAF and IN for the Rafale could touch 200 units.

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## Side-Winder

Abingdonboy said:


> Not really but this off e shelf purchase lays the groundwork. Dassualt are in talks separately to manufacture >90 Rafales in India (as confirmed by their CEO in Febuary).
> 
> The IAF would not be spending 1.8bn EUR on Indian specific upgrades for their Rafales if eye were only going to go for 36 units. Such a high cost of ndian sepcifc upgrades only makes sense when spread out over a far larger fleet.
> 
> Combined orders for the IAF and IN for the Rafale could touch 200 units.



So if the french tomorrow again, get you into a stalemate over 'made in india' thing, What do you plan? You think they will easily be convinced after all we know why this deal couldn't materialize for so many years.


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## GuardianRED

Side-Winder said:


> So if the french tomorrow again, get you into a stalemate over 'made in india' thing, What do you plan? You think they will easily be convinced after all we know why this deal couldn't materialize for so many years.


why this deal couldn't materialize for so many year!? Pls do tell us why?


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## Abingdonboy

Side-Winder said:


> So if the french tomorrow again, get you into a stalemate over 'made in india' thing, What do you plan? You think they will easily be convinced after all we know why this deal couldn't materialize for so many years.


And Martians could invade tomorrow also.

We could talk hypotheticals until the cows come home but that doesn't really achieve anything.

Under the IGA signed between India and France in Jan 2016 there was an agreed upon minimum order of units India would procure for the IAF and IN this is what has brought concessions from both sides and why the French have thrown in certain "sweetners" (free training, free weapon storage costs, access to trainers etc etc).

If there was not an agreement in place then there is no way India would have committed to these 36 off the shelf birds nor would it be willing to pay 1.8bn EUR on Indian specific upgrades. The fact 36 jets have been ordered ensures many many more are coming for both the IAF and IN. This is a G2G deal, not a pure commercial deal and hence there is a strategic nature to the talks, both sides are now clearly on the same page hence the signature.

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## Side-Winder

Abingdonboy said:


> And Martians could invade tomorrow also.
> 
> We could talk hypotheticals until the cows come home but that doesn't really achieve anything.
> 
> Under the IGA signed between India and France in Jan 2016 there was an agreed upon minimum order of units India would procure for the IAF and IN this is what has brought concessions from both sides and why the French have thrown in certain "sweetners" (free training, free weapon storage costs, access to trainers etc etc).
> 
> If there was not an agreement in place then there is no way India would have committed to these 36 off the shelf birds nor would it be willing to pay 1.8bn EUR on Indian specific upgrades. The fact 36 jets have been ordered ensures many many more are coming for both the IAF and IN. This is a G2G deal, not a pure commercial deal and hence there is a strategic nature to the talks, both sides are now clearly on the same page hence the signature.



Alright we'll see in time - Thanks for your reply.

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## Abingdonboy

@BON PLAN @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @DavidSling @PARIKRAMA 

Other than the Israeli HMSD (probably DASH lV) will the LITENING G4 LDP and RECCELITE also be integrated for India as part of the Indian specific upgrades?

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## mirage

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Rafale deal will bring good business for us: Samtel chief*
> 
> Defence MSME major Samtel Avionics is betting big on the Indian market even as the Indian defence industry is poised for a quantum leap, says Puneet Kaura, MD and CEO, Samtel Avionics. The Samtel Avionics, which has a joint venture with Thales, is exploring various options to meet the offset obligations of Dassault Aviation that manufactures Rafale jets. In an interview with BusinessLine, he said procurement of the French Rafale fighter jets will bring big business for the firm. Excerpts:
> 
> *Now that the $8-billion Rafale deal is in place, what benefit does it bring to you?
> *
> We have the same aim for Rafale that is similar to our Mirage upgrade experience. In Rafale, w*e are looking at supplying infra red search and track system, some work on the electronic warfare suite, we are also looking at avionics, including computers and displays*. This was also our original plan when the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) was in discussions. I don’t see any reason why it should change.
> 
> *But the procurement of these jets will be done in flyaway condition. How will this benefit you?
> 
> Rafale will bring big business to the Indian market. They need offsets and this will stretch beyond 2018-19, which is the time required to set up and start manufacturing things like this. There will still be a pipeline of 130-140 more planes to be made for the global market. And plus, let’s say India buys two more squadrons then it comes back to 167-170 planes. And then, they can always use the last leg, the last 6-10 aircraft they can still use even if the timeline is short for manufacturing from India.*
> 
> *Does the scaling down of the project from 126 jets to 36 impact you?
> *
> See we are starting somewhere at least. It has been 15 years that this discussion is going on. We have to look at the reality. The initial plan was too ambitious.
> 
> *Of late biggies such as Lockheed Martin, SAAB and Boeing all have expressed their intention to set up their assembly lines here. What kind of opportunities does that bring for MSMEs like you?
> *
> We are working with all consortium partners. We are already engaged with many of them as supplier. So these will augment our business. We are engaged with a lot of American, Russian, European and Israeli companies.
> 
> *Tell us about your Mirage 2000 upgrade experience?
> *
> This was a good experience. We were able to set up a world-class production line similar to what they have in France, transferred the technology and manufactured about 21-22 ship sets. Now we are looking at all the other Mirages that are coming up that will be using this facility for this product for global supply chain. Then there are whole lot of indirect offsets that we are planning to do. We are looking at developing global supply chains for locally designed, developed products. The product lines for those are under discussions right now. This is what we call ‘Go Global.’
> 
> *For MSMEs like you won’t Make-II be more beneficial where the projects are fully funded?
> *
> This is definitely more beneficial. Once the product is developed it is easier for the government to invest. Make-II gives more confidence to the supplier that the customer will buy because it will be based on a contract with a timeline.
> 
> *What is your opinion on how the Strategic Partnerships chapter is shaping up? The government is yet to finalise it and it seems the big firms are opposed to having only one SP in one segment?
> *
> See part of the problem is that every category there is a PSU that exists. I do not think we have the market for two SPs. It is not an easy task. Let’s see how it unfolds. But they are first looking at fighters to start with the SPs because there is a huge gap there. So let us see how it goes.
> 
> *Now that you have gained a deep foothold in the market, are you planning to expand your portfolio?
> *
> In the electronic space, we are already looking at avionics that includes cockpit avionics and electronics that go into back-end of the aircraft. We are looking at sensor suites, high-end sensors, so we are looking at multiple product lines. Then there is vehicle electronics such as armoured vehicles and tanks. Still there is huge shortage of players in electronic space and then there is huge demand also for electronics.
> 
> *Are there any plans to expand production units?
> *
> We have three production units. These are independent to each other. Instead of going for JVs, we are now looking for joint working groups by either through ToT and giving royalty to foreign OEMs or joint manufacturing without equity infusion.
> 
> (This article was published on September 23, 2016)
> 
> http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...siness-for-us-samtel-chief/article9141228.ece


hello parikrima sir , any information on when MII part of this rafale deal will be disclosed

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## PARIKRAMA

*Hearing something from the source*

*The deliveries will begin sooner than 36 months surely*
The outer periphery as per contract is definitely longer as per the worst case schedule 
The internal agreement seems to be supplying maximum aircrafts between 36-54 (18 months period) and finishing off the contract
*In short its basically 4.5 years or all deliveries will be over before 2021 Q1 end as per the plan.*
The source also said in the words of DM MP - _*"the offsets in this deal will be in line with Make In India initiative launched by Prime Minister Narendra Modi"*_
*In the words of DM MP he certainly believes atm only aircraft better than Rafale is something which is not exportable at all and is no more produced and is the only realistic 5th Gen aircraft among all countries.*
*In another word, a certain some one explained that looking at new F35 costs for Israel as detailed by Israeli AF to us, the cost comes out to be massive $450 Mn +.*
*To this, DM MP quipped our FGFA wont be too cheap as all 5th generation aircraft are like that cost only *
@Abingdonboy @anant_s @hellfire @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @MilSpec @Armani @randomradio @R!CK @GuardianRED @zebra7 @Ankit Kumar 002 @others




mirage said:


> hello parikrima sir , any information on when MII part of this rafale deal will be disclosed


Hello, no Sir pls
MII will be disclosed in phases. 

First will be release of Strategic Partnership (SP) Model completely by MOD
Second will be formal approval and endorsement by MOD for SP of DA group along with JVs of Thales and Safran being part of this working consortium with a Indian private sector company. The other participants will be in thsi group the JV holders of Thales and Safran as well.
Third will be formal announcement by MOD for signing an IGA/Contract for the batch/first tranche of aircraft under MII. This is expected by March 2017

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## #hydra#

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Hearing something from the source*
> 
> *The deliveries will begin sooner than 36 months surely*
> The outer periphery as per contract is definitely longer as per the worst case schedule
> The internal agreement seems to be supplying maximum aircrafts between 36-54 (18 months period) and finishing off the contract
> *In short its basically 4.5 years or all deliveries will be over before 2021 Q1 end as per the plan.*
> The source also said in the words of DM MP - _*"the offsets in this deal will be in line with Make In India initiative launched by Prime Minister Narendra Modi"*_
> *In the words of DM MP he certainly believes atm only aircraft better than Rafale is something which is not exportable at all and is no more produced and is the only realistic 5th Gen aircraft among all countries.*
> *In another word, a certain some one explained that looking at new F35 costs for Israel as detailed by Israeli AF to us, the cost comes out to be massive $450 Mn +.*
> *To this, DM MP quipped our FGFA wont be too cheap as all 5th generation aircraft are like that cost only *
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @hellfire @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @MilSpec @Armani @randomradio @R!CK @GuardianRED @zebra7 @Ankit Kumar 002 @others
> 
> 
> 
> Hello, no Sir pls
> MII will be disclosed in phases.
> 
> First will be release of Strategic Partnership (SP) Model completely by MOD
> Second will be formal approval and endorsement by MOD for SP of DA group along with JVs of Thales and Safran being part of this working consortium with a Indian private sector company. The other participants will be in thsi group the JV holders of Thales and Safran as well.
> Third will be formal announcement by MOD for signing an IGA/Contract for the batch/first tranche of aircraft under MII. This is expected by March 2017


If f35 is not as good as rafale yet costly,then why Israelis are not going for rafale?

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## Abingdonboy

#hydra# said:


> If f35 is not as good as rafale yet costly,then why Israelis are not going for rafale?


Not going to touch the F-35 vs Rafale grenade but the fact is the Israelis are mandated to buy American hardware thanks to all the military aid they receive from Uncle Sam. The F-35 was forced down their throats, really they wanted upgraded F-15Is but the USG is basically the front for their MIC and insisted on a F-35 purchase.

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## Taygibay

Abingdonboy said:


> Other than the Israeli HMSD (probably DASH lV) will the LITENING G4 LDP and RECCELITE also be integrated for India as part of the Indian specific upgrades?



Don't bet on any config until it's official.

 Tay.

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## PARIKRAMA

#hydra# said:


> If f35 is not as good as rafale yet costly,then why Israelis are not going for rafale?



As of today F35 may not be good, but some day the white elephant will mature. And its sheer numbers across the world and successfully integrating new weapons and stabilizing the coding issues over time, will see this as a much potent system. No doubt its more advanced than say F22. But its still a bit far from its true potential.

Hopefully its the same time by 2024 when Rafale F3R2 also comes online. Basically it will keep Rafale in good solid competitive position versus the F35s.

Israel cant buy the Rafales. For them the US F35s were not good enough thats why Adir has so much customization to make it suitable and meet Israeli AF requirements. It in a way point to the realistic position.

Anyway i guess soon we will have F35 Adir vs Rafale India exercise. We should get to know much more at that point of time.

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## nang2

PARIKRAMA said:


> As of today F35 may not be good, but some day the white elephant will mature. And its sheer numbers across the world and successfully integrating new weapons and stabilizing the coding issues over time, will see this as a much potent system. No doubt its more advanced than say F22. But its still a bit far from its true potential.
> 
> Hopefully its the same time by 2024 when Rafale F3R2 also comes online. Basically it will keep Rafale in good solid competitive position versus the F35s.
> 
> Israel cant buy the Rafales. For them the US F35s were not good enough thats why Adir has so much customization to make it suitable and meet Israeli AF requirements. It in a way point to the realistic position.
> 
> Anyway i guess soon we will have F35 Adir vs Rafale India exercise. We should get to know much more at that point of time.


By 2024, China's J20 R2D2 will be ready! So we are good.

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## LOGICAL BOSSS

*India-specific enhancements of the Rafale Fighter Jet*
Published September 24, 2016
SOURCE: ET







The Rafale deal caters to Indian Air Force’s specific needs. The fighter jet will be modified by France to meet the following:
*
Only Indian specific modifications led us hopping 1.75 billion $ bill out of total contact value*

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## DavidSling

I understand the tendency to undermine F35, but neither F15 or F16 were problem free in the start, and F35 is another level of sophistication all together.
Saying it's no better than the rafale is lack of knowledge at best.
and as for Israeli system integration, Israel rather integrate it's avionics into every thing it purchases, so it will serve them best.
I won't continue to comment on this stupid comparision but you should stick on rafale capabilities rather than slide to propaganda.
And btw, the Israeli pilot who went to learn about the plane in the U.S are very happy about it's capabilities, so I heard



Abingdonboy said:


> Not going to touch the F-35 vs Rafale grenade but the fact is the Israelis are mandated to buy American hardware thanks to all the military aid they receive from Uncle Sam. The F-35 was forced down their throats, really they wanted upgraded F-15Is but the USG is basically the front for their MIC and insisted on a F-35 purchase.


Israel is probably going to buy latest F15-I soon to, as mentioned by Rise in MOU, F-35 is meant to replace old F16's

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## LOGICAL BOSSS

The Rafale deal has been long in the making, with the NDA govt scrapping the original 2007 project and going for direct purchase of 36 Rafales. Dassault CEO _*Eric Trappier* _talked to *TOI *. Excerpts:

*What does Rafale bring to India ?*
The number one reason for the success (in the deal going through) is its capabilities. The aircraft’s performance was evaluated by the skilled IAF in different conditions here (during the MMRCA project evaluation).It has the capability to do everything. It’s a good air-to-air combat aircraft, a strike aircraft, a reconnaisance and intelligence aircraft. It is good for all types of missions designed for the French forces, including from aircraft carriers. This was totally in line with what IAF wanted.

*You said the negotiations were tough. What are the advantages for India on the price front, or on the technology front?*
The negotiations were really tough on the price. I will not say how much as that is part of the discussion between the two governments. This is an inter-government deal.As far as 50% offsets… they (India) have been able to get more from us.

I feel this happened because of the confidence in the long partnership between India and France, between IAF and Dassault. India is proud about the first (Dassault) fighters it acquired in 1953 and later, the Mirage-2000s. When you are speaking defence, you don’t want to have just a good deal. You want a good plane. A good fighter, because this part of the world might sometimes be dangerous. You don’t deal with security lightly .

*Is there any reference to the Rafale being nuclear capable?*
It is totally in line with the French definition and more than that, we have been developing specifications that were required by the IAF. But basically it is the same system as for France.

*And the French Rafales are nuclear capable?*
That is something specific to France.

There have been questions on the high costs. It is said India can buy three Russian Sukhois for one Rafale.

Yes, maybe Rafale is more expensive. But those who know about fighters also know that Rafale is much more capable than a Sukhoi… in terms of survivability and all combat roles. The Russian aircraft are good, no doubt.But when your air force will have the Rafale, they will be happy to have it in their inventory, just like the Mirage-2000s which are the backbone of IAF.

Rafale is more a competitor for the F-35. We are a generation ahead of the F 16.

*How did the negotiations change with the current government taking office since the MMRCA project was deadlocked?*
I think they (Modi government) took a decision to reduce the number of aircraft but go ahead with the deal. We want fighters to be delivered, you need a CCO (contract change order). It is this government that decided. They signed the deal. They made this deal a reality.

*Do you think India will go in for more orders?*
We will work on it. As a manufacturer I will like to sell more. But I am satisfied with this contract. We will work with our Indian colleagues to develop the local industry here.

*What does this deal mean for the India-France strategic partnership?*
It is between the governments. A strategic partnership is more than an aircraft deal. I can only comment on the aircraft. The partnership is at a political level, it is more than good, we are real partners.

*What about the 50 per cent offsets condition… which are the areas that can be developed?*
India is already a leading country in software. We would like to take advantage of this. It is time to develop equipment. It can be a success story. Dassault is at the top in digital processes. This is a must to address the worldwide market.

There are fears about India-France defence projects after the Scorpene data leak.

I am sure the leak is being investigated. About Dassault, I will say security is a very serious matter. We have protected ourselves but zero risk does not exist.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/rafale-o...f-16-jets-eric-trappier.451260/#ixzz4LC8q9AuV

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## BON PLAN

#hydra# said:


> If f35 is not as good as rafale yet costly,then why Israelis are not going for rafale?


USA help Israel financialy... It's enough to kill any extra US plane deal.



Abingdonboy said:


> @BON PLAN @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @DavidSling @PARIKRAMA
> 
> Other than the Israeli HMSD (probably DASH lV) will the LITENING G4 LDP and RECCELITE also be integrated for India as part of the Indian specific upgrades?


Only IAF or India's top brass can answered.
Litening probably, because alredy in IAF arsenal. 
Reccelite? I don't know. Probably France will try to push AREOS pod.

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## Agent_47

DavidSling said:


> I understand the tendency to undermine F35, but neither F15 or F16 were problem free in the start, and F35 is another level of sophistication all together.
> Saying it's no better than the rafale is lack of knowledge at best.
> and as for Israeli system integration, Israel rather integrate it's avionics into every thing it purchases, so it will serve them best.
> I won't continue to comment on this stupid comparision but you should stick on rafale capabilities rather than slide to propaganda.
> And btw, the Israeli pilot who went to learn about the plane in the U.S are very happy about it's capabilities, so I heard


It is a good enough plane. But it is not matching its potential. Legacy of F-16s will not be repeated.

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## DavidSling

Agent_47 said:


> It is a good enough plane. But it is not matching its potential. Legacy of F-16s will not be repeated.


According to you. Israel wouldn't compromise it's security for no one, even for it's greatest ally.
Pilots I talked with, are very happy with the plane, and say that all the noise around it is unjust altho it has it own share of problems that will probably be fixed in the future

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## #hydra#

DavidSling said:


> According to you. Israel wouldn't compromise it's security for no one, even for it's greatest ally.
> Pilots I talked with, are very happy with the plane, and say that all the noise around it is unjust altho it has it own share of problems that will probably be fixed in the future


AFAIK Israel demands f22 not 35s.

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## DavidSling

#hydra# said:


> AFAIK Israel demands f22 not 35s.


Israel demanded f22 for aerial superiority role to replace old f 15 ...

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## #hydra#

DavidSling said:


> Israel demanded f22 for aerial superiority role to replace old f 15 ...


To my knowledge Israel lacks powerful neighbouring enemies, so instead of investing on costly air superiority fighters concentrate on f35/16 type multi roles and b2 type stealth bombers,which is essential to tackle far away enemies like iran

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## DavidSling

#hydra# said:


> To my knowledge Israel lacks powerful neighbouring enemies, so instead of investing on costly air superiority fighters concentrate on f35/16 type multi roles and b2 type stealth bombers,which is essential to tackle far away enemies like iran


Israel military is designed to be small on quantity but big on quality, which is why Israel rather have less but more efficient weapons

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## jha

Comparison with F-35 is unjustified. F-35 is just entering into service. So come chinks will be there. Come 2025, and we will talk.

Lets keep this thread focused on Rafale.

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## migflug

F35 has no equivalent. Even in its current form its better than f22 let alone rafale or eurofighter. Its sensor fusion , network warfare is unrivalled. But its potential will harnessed fully by only few usa or maybe uk, cause of their extensive networking. In future f35 can guide misseles fired from aegis/ zumwalt or guiding predator/avenger drones.
Basically an american f 35 will be a nightmare to its enemies while other countries f35 wont be that effective although still better than rafale or eurofighter.

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## Abingdonboy

migflug said:


> f35 wont be that effective although still better than rafale or eurofighter.


I would seriously dispute this but let's leave that for another time and place.

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> As of today F35 may not be good, but some day the white elephant will mature. And its sheer numbers across the world and successfully integrating new weapons and stabilizing the coding issues over time, will see this as a much potent system. No doubt its more advanced than say F22. But its still a bit far from its true potential.
> 
> Hopefully its the same time by 2024 when Rafale F3R2 also comes online. Basically it will keep Rafale in good solid competitive position versus the F35s.
> 
> Israel cant buy the Rafales. For them the US F35s were not good enough thats why Adir has so much customization to make it suitable and meet Israeli AF requirements. It in a way point to the realistic position.
> 
> Anyway i guess soon we will have F35 Adir vs Rafale India exercise. We should get to know much more at that point of time.



The F-35 is Mr. Late Latif. When it is fully operational, it will be nearing uselessness, those are comments from the USAF. They have admitted the F-22 and F-35 won't compete with the PAK FA and J-20. That's why they have a new Penetrating Counter Air and the F-X program coming in much sooner than anticipated.



DavidSling said:


> Israel demanded f22 for aerial superiority role to replace old f 15 ...



You can buy the AMCA to replace the F-15s.

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## cerberus

randomradio said:


> The F-35 is Mr. Late Latif. When it is fully operational, it will be nearing uselessness, those are comments from the USAF. They have admitted the F-22 and F-35 won't compete with the PAK FA and J-20. That's why they have a new Penetrating Counter Air and the F-X program coming in much sooner than anticipated.


There Lot things in F-35 Except Analog Radar My friend
AN/AAQ-37 electro-optical Distributed Aperture System (DAS) There No Match of this system by Any Nation till now

In 21st century air combat is based on One can detect other Threat before That;s why its called God's Eye 

The DAS is a remarkably sensitive and discriminating set of six sensors that gives the pilot data not just from in front of his aircraft, but directly below, above and to the sides — in military parlance he’s got 360 degree situational awareness. How sensitive is the system? I’ve been told by two sources that the DAS spotted a missile launch from 1,200 miles away during a Red Flag exercise in Alaska. But DAS, just as with the older Defense Support Satellites used to search the world for missile launches, may not know exactly what it’s looking at right away.

That’s where the F-35’s data fusion library comes in, combing through threat information to decide what the plane has detected. The plane, after combing through thousands of possible signatures, may suggest the pilot use his Eletro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) or his AESA radar to gather more data, depending on the situation. The F-35 that spots the apparent missile launch will share its data with other F-35s and the Combined Air and Space Operations Center (CAOC), which will be managing all the data from US and allied aircraft and satellites so that bigger computers on the ground can crunch the data from those sensors and make recommendations if any single plane hasn’t gathered enough information with enough fidelity. (Of course, the CAOC can also do that whole command thing and coordinate the F-35s flying with other aircraft, ships and ground troops.)

The loop will be complete once a target is identified. Then the plane’s fusion center will recommend targets, which weapons to use and which targets should be killed first. Given the Chinese government’s vast and persistent espionage enterprise it won’t be surprising if the J-20s boast some of the F-35’s capabilities, but I have yet to speak with anyone in the Pentagon or the intelligence community who says the Chinese appear to have developed software and sensor capabilities as good as those on the F-35.

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## randomradio

cerberus said:


> There Lot things in F-35 Except Analog Radar My friend
> AN/AAQ-37 electro-optical Distributed Aperture System (DAS) There No Match of this system by Any Nation till now



There's nothing particularly great about it. The Rafale has had something similar since early 2010s, fully operational.

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## cerberus

randomradio said:


> There's nothing particularly great about it. The Rafale has had something similar since early 2010s, fully operational.




The F-35's DAS is so sensitive, it reportedly detected the launch of an air-to-air missile in a training exercise from 1200 mi (1,900 km) away, *which in combat would give away the location of an enemy aircraft even if it had a very low RCS

Do you Know how Power full RWR of F-35 Is 

Iam ready Listen Its Performance in rafale what's its Range 

How can you fight Enemy Which detect Thousand Miles Away ?

I'm not even discussing f-35 Network centric Jamming capabilities Which can Fry any Known fighter *

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## Picdelamirand-oil

cerberus said:


> The F-35's DAS is so sensitive, it reportedly detected the launch of an air-to-air missile in a training exercise from 1200 mi (1,900 km) away, *which in combat would give away the location of an enemy aircraft even if it had a very low RCS
> 
> Do you Know how Power full RWR of F-35 Is
> 
> Iam ready Listen Its Performance in rafale what's its Range
> 
> How can you fight Enemy Which detect Thousand Miles Away ?
> 
> I'm not even discussing f-35 Network centric Jamming capabilities Which can Fry any Known fighter *


Does it have a A to A missile with 1900 km range?

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## cerberus

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Does it have a A to A missile with 1900 km range?


Yes US Claiming It
_*Sensors, Data And Decisions*_

[QUOTE="_*The DAS is a remarkably sensitive and discriminating set of six sensors that gives the pilot data not just from in front of his aircraft, but directly below, above and to the sides — in military parlance he’s got 360 degree situational awareness. How sensitive is the system? I’ve been told by two sources that the DAS spotted a missile launch from 1,200 miles away during a Red Flag exercise in Alaska. But DAS, just as with the older Defense Support Satellites used to search the world for missile launches, may not know exactly what it’s looking at right away.*_[/QUOTE]

http://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/a-gods-eye-view-of-the-battlefield-gen-hostage-on-the-f-35/4/


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## randomradio

cerberus said:


> The F-35's DAS is so sensitive, it reportedly detected the launch of an air-to-air missile in a training exercise from 1200 mi (1,900 km) away, *which in combat would give away the location of an enemy aircraft even if it had a very low RCS*


*
*
That's wrong. It detected a ballistic missile from that range. You can't detect an air to air missile from that range because 1900Km is beyond the F-35's max horizon, the earth is a sphere, so the missile will be hidden by earth's curvature.

There's nothing special about tracking ballistic missiles from that distance, especially when the background radiation is well below freezing.






In the right conditions, we can even see them.










This video explains how people observed a BM test in the Pacific as far as Arizona. That's more than 1000Km from the test site.

*



Do you Know how Power full RWR of F-35 Is

Iam ready Listen Its Performance in rafale what's its Range

Click to expand...

*
Rafale's Spectra suite is far superior, the Americans/British are yet to develop something similar.

In fact from what DARPA's queen bee says, the Americans are yet to develop algorithms that the Spectra has been using over the last 15 years.

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## cerberus

randomradio said:


> That's wrong. It detected a ballistic missile from that range. You can't detect an air to air missile from that range because 1900Km is beyond the F-35's max horizon, the earth is a sphere, so the missile will be hidden by earth's curvature.
> 
> There's nothing special about tracking ballistic missiles from that distance, especially when the background radiation is well below freezing.


Subtract RCS and you will get the figures Close thousand KM For fighter aircraft

*While being flown on Northrop Grumman's BAC 1-11 test aircraft, the DAS detected and located tank fire from an operationally significant distance. In addition to artillery, the system is able to simultaneously detect and pinpoint the location of rockets and anti-aircraft artillery fired in a wide *area. Although hostile fire detection is not an F-35 requirement for the DAS, the system design makes it ideal for this mission. This inherent capability enables DAS to harvest, process and deliver key battlespace information to ground forces and other aircraft autonomously, without the need for cueing or increasing pilot workload

http://www.northropgrumman.com/capabilities/anaaq37f35/pages/default.aspx

*This Technology is Patent by US so you will not find Its similar in market *
https://www.google.com/patents/US5317394

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## randomradio

cerberus said:


> Subtract RCS and you will get the figures Close thousand KM For fighter aircraft
> 
> *While being flown on Northrop Grumman's BAC 1-11 test aircraft, the DAS detected and located tank fire from an operationally significant distance. In addition to artillery, the system is able to simultaneously detect and pinpoint the location of rockets and anti-aircraft artillery fired in a wide *area. Although hostile fire detection is not an F-35 requirement for the DAS, the system design makes it ideal for this mission. This inherent capability enables DAS to harvest, process and deliver key battlespace information to ground forces and other aircraft autonomously, without the need for cueing or increasing pilot workload
> 
> http://www.northropgrumman.com/capabilities/anaaq37f35/pages/default.aspx



Nah, man. DAS doesn't detect radio frequency, it detects heat. BMs are hot, fighters planes are not even remotely close as hot. RCS does nothing.

You are posting what IR detection systems normally do.

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## Norge Stronk

cerberus said:


> Subtract RCS and you will get the figures Close thousand KM For fighter aircraft



DAS is extreme range IR identification only. EOTS is another system, but is for visual IDs. What you're looking for is the AN/ASQ-239.

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## cerberus

randomradio said:


> Nah, man. DAS doesn't detect radio frequency, it detects heat. BMs are hot, fighters planes are not even remotely close as hot. RCS does nothing.
> 
> You are posting what IR detection systems normally do.


DAS Multi Sensor Unit it has six sensors Including Passive IRST It can Detect even smaller IR emissions

In fact, during a test flown on Northrop Grumman’s BAC 1-11 test aircraft, the F-35’s DAS detected and located tanks that were firing live rounds during a military exercise. Hostile fire detection makes the aircraft capable to simultaneously detect and pinpoint anti-aircraft artillery and rocket fired in a wide area: the location from where the hostile fire originates can be gathered and then shared with ground forces,At very long Ranges



Designated the AN/AAQ-37 and comprising six electro-optical sensors, the full EO DAS will enhance the F-35's survivability and operational effectiveness by warning the pilot of incoming aircraft and missile threats, providing day/night vision and supporting the navigation function of the F-35 Lightning II's forward-looking infrared sensor.


The DAS provides:



Missile detection and tracking
Launch point detection
Situational awareness IRST & cueing
Weapons support
Day/night navigation
At every long ranges





Source 
http://www.northropgrumman.com/capabilities/anaaq37f35/pages/default.aspx



randomradio said:


> ighters planes are not even remotely close as hot. RCS does nothing.


DAS Made to detect Missiles and Aircraft at very long ranges that's why IRST sensors are Included


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## randomradio

cerberus said:


> DAS Made to detect Missiles and Aircraft at very long ranges that's why IRST sensors are Included



RCS is radar cross section.
http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/Navy handbook/4.11 Radar Cross-Section (RCS).pdf

The F-35's IR tech is quite old.


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## dadeechi

Catch Eric Trappier - CEO of Dassault Aviation in an exclusive conversation with ET NOW's Supriya Shrinate, as they speak about the Rafale Deal.

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## halloweene

Congratulations! A very dangerous development for our air force. This deal took its time yet created trouble for us. I hope you get the targeted numbers achieved as I want to see how we respond to these developments.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ssions-thread-2.230070/page-373#ixzz4LEjWgDCs

Although i'm aware of indian/pakistan relationships, is an air war really foreseeable?

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## Picdelamirand-oil

*Rafale deal paves way for India-France strategic partnership for next 40 years: French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian *

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

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## [Bregs]

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> *Rafale deal paves way for India-France strategic partnership for next 40 years: French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian *
> 
> Read more at:
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst



India-France partnership in defence is no going to be limited to Rafale alone in future, France is expected to bag many more defence deals which Russia might loose and US might not get all of them for sanctions risk associated with them .

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## DavidSling

migflug said:


> .
> 
> I know that. just saying f 35 is superior to f 22 in most cases except stealth even that is questionable(At optimal frequencies, the F-35 compares favorably to the F-22 in stealth, according to General Mike hostage, Commander of the Air combat command) .
> Don't go by physical parameters , i'm talking about situational awareness-> sensor fusion,electronic warfare( The CATbird  avionics testbed aircraft has proved capable of detecting and jamming radars including the F-22's AN/APG 77


Our ballistics missiles have range of 5k km to 11.5km
And we have our own refuel jets, with connections getting better with gulf countries that too count Iran as an enemy, I guess gettin to iran wouldn't be such of a problem

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## PARIKRAMA

Posted at: Sep 25, 2016, 12:57 AM; last updated: Sep 25, 2016, 2:48 PM (IST)
*Rafale to widen arch of operations*
MoD working on multiple options, next 5-6 yrs crucial for Air Force to induct technology





The first of the Rafales will start coming in by September 2019 and the full fleet shall be operational by April 2022. File photo

*Ajay Banerjee*

*Tribune News Service*

*New Delhi, September 24*

Equipped with the latest missiles which widen the arch of offensive operations, the Rafale fighter will be a potential game-changer for India’s airborne capability on several fronts.
India has signed a contract with France to buy 36 such jets at a cost of Rs 58,828 crore, a huge sum but modern technology does not come cheap.

*Chiefly the Rafale will provide: dependability of having the very latest technology-backed air-strike platform; ability to hit enemy targets which are further away due to its flight radius of some 1,000 km; be available for five sorties per day instead of three of the Sukhoi 30 MKI; a new set of onboard radars to help pilots navigate and also strike; a new set of missiles that hit targets further away; and infusion of new technology in the Indian Air Force that is presently operating at its lowest level of fighter jets in the past decade.*

The Rafale will bridge the shortfall of the fast-dwindling fighter squadrons. India needs 45 fighter squadrons to counter a combined threat from Pakistan and China.* Currently, it has only 33, where each squadron has 18-20 jets. Of these, the vintage MiG-21 and MiG-27 form 11 squadrons. The Sukhoi 30-MKI populates 10 squadrons, the 1970s design British Jaguar six, followed by French Mirage 2000 and Soviet Union’s MiG-29 in two and three squadrons, respectively. The last three are being upgraded with better missiles and avionics.*

Rafale will be in some ways be superior to what the Chinese presently have in their arsenal, but Beijing is producing its own platforms and weapons and with the next generation J-20 fighter jet getting established, *India will need to carry forward its plans rapidly and catch up with Beijing over the next five-six years by widening its ‘make in India’ footprint.*

The first of the Rafales will start coming in by September 2019 and the full fleet shall be operational by April 2022. In the intervening period, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) led by Manohar Parrikar, needs to focus on a multi-pronged approach to meet future needs. The Rafale deal was negotiated for 18 months – ‘lightning fast’ going by MoD’s record.

As the good news filters in, the MoD is already working on multiple options –* at least four of which are known – to bridge the technology gap of the IAF and add newer planes.*


*The first is to quickly induct the 106 Tejas “Mark-1A”. The MoD has set a 2018 deadline for the first aircraft to be ready with a target to complete its production by 2022-23. *
*The second is to have an additional assembly line of Indian-made fighter jets. This could be a joint venture with a US or European company setting up a plant in collaboration with an Indian partner.*
*The third is completion of the production schedule of 272 of the Sukhoi 30-MKI, expected by 2020. *
*The fourth is to ink an agreement with Russia to co-develop and produce a fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) with stealth features and the works.*
The Sukhois were ordered in phases since 1997, the IAF wants 272 of these in its fleet by 2020. The agreement for the FGFA is expected to be inked when Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Russian President Vladimir Putin meet next month.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/rafale-to-widen-arch-of-operations/300365.html
+++
Comments

I have said this before




https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-351#post-8704512

If the* article above is correct,* then point 2
*The second is to have an additional assembly line of Indian-made fighter jets. This could be a joint venture with a US or European company setting up a plant in collaboration with an Indian partner*
Seems to suggest a straight shootout situation as

F18SH vs Rafale ( USA vs European)
F16 vs Rafale vs Gripen (USA vs European)
Interesting to note, first option of F18 is not accepted by IAF as of now
Second option is basically a LWF Single engine vs twin Engine MWF/DPSA

In both sense logic, rationality and the MII investments couple with Eric Trappier words indicate the choice is Rafale.

Yet i would love to see rationale of using either other american options (F16/F18) or Gripen instead of Rafale. This brings us to the important second part of the equation.
In my observation for Rafale M and interaction with vstol, we discussed the following
















IF what you read above is basically the scope of IN order and its basically much sooner in the horizon owing to inadequate fleet for the carriers.

This opens up the scope of debate further, bcz these orders may be again from Merignac only unless the first MII order is Rafale M (highly unlikely). We know surely the F16/F18/Gripen E are not qualified for STOBAR config ACC.

On top, if supposing say 3 squadrons of 16 aircraft and 6 twin seater are ordered thats 54 odd Rafale Ms. Bascially 90 aircrafts from Merignac Line. Unless of course we order 45 Mig29Ks between now and 2017.

This makes me wonder, why is mainstream media still believing that a US jet or may be another European jet actually is running for a MII line, the likes of LM, Boeing and Saab....

*Again all as per the report which does not mention a second LWF which i believe is a possibility if LCA Mk2 is shelved or delayed or the foreign aircraft /LSA is rechristened as LCA Mk2 with some basic changes.*


@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @Taygibay @R!CK @Armani @GuardianRED @surya kiran @Ankit Kumar 002 @Nilgiri @hellfire @Spectre @randomradio @litefire @dadeechi @[Bregs] @BON PLAN @CNL-PN-AA @Skull and Bones @MilSpec @SpArK 

By any chance Am I missing something here?

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## [Bregs]

Any deal with US in MII specifically for a fighter aircraft is going to be sure shot pain in future so better to concentrate onh Rafale MII(both for IN and IAF), signing of FGFA deal at earliest, Super sukhois upgrades and fattier n timely induction of tejas at least now. Gripen wont bring in any thing strategic to us

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> The second is to have an additional assembly line of Indian-made fighter jets. This could be a joint venture with a US or European company setting up a plant in collaboration with an Indian partner



The offer for something other than Rafale for these would be terribly difficult to justify fiscally, given all the new one time costs yet again for another platform.

Anyway keeping options open only helps India in the long run for the next negotiation whenever it commences (probably after 2019 election).

Enough breathing room has been acquired in the mean time with this interim method.

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## PARIKRAMA

Nilgiri said:


> The offer for something other than Rafale for these would be terribly difficult to justify fiscally, given all the new one time costs yet again for another platform.
> 
> Anyway keeping options open only helps India in the long run for the next negotiation whenever it commences (probably after 2019 election).
> 
> Enough breathing room has been acquired in the mean time with this interim method.


That would be a wrong assumption bro, assuming the MII line approval is given in march 2017 or max by Dec 2017, the line setup itself will take 3 years so consumption of time puts us in 2021. Again kit based assembly will require at least say 15-18 months for initial low production rate so 2022+ timeline for first MII rafale to roll out.

If we take a call post 2019 elections or 2020, line finishes by 2024 and first plane comes out at 2026 kind of timeline right when FGFA is also available at low production rate from HAL line.
Fiscally it will be impossible to maintain a cost of $200Mn 5th gen fighter along with say a $85 Mn fighter together at one go. In other words, it will be prudent if we space out Rafale MII and FGFA MII production by at least 5 years to have some breathing space. Anyways HAL time is not considered at all for this equation..


Also consider the squadron strength dipping below 30 uptill that point of time with this plan

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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Posted at: Sep 25, 2016, 12:57 AM; last updated: Sep 25, 2016, 2:48 PM (IST)
> *Rafale to widen arch of operations*
> MoD working on multiple options, next 5-6 yrs crucial for Air Force to induct technology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first of the Rafales will start coming in by September 2019 and the full fleet shall be operational by April 2022. File photo
> 
> *Ajay Banerjee*
> 
> *Tribune News Service*
> 
> *New Delhi, September 24*
> 
> Equipped with the latest missiles which widen the arch of offensive operations, the Rafale fighter will be a potential game-changer for India’s airborne capability on several fronts.
> India has signed a contract with France to buy 36 such jets at a cost of Rs 58,828 crore, a huge sum but modern technology does not come cheap.
> 
> *Chiefly the Rafale will provide: dependability of having the very latest technology-backed air-strike platform; ability to hit enemy targets which are further away due to its flight radius of some 1,000 km; be available for five sorties per day instead of three of the Sukhoi 30 MKI; a new set of onboard radars to help pilots navigate and also strike; a new set of missiles that hit targets further away; and infusion of new technology in the Indian Air Force that is presently operating at its lowest level of fighter jets in the past decade.*
> 
> The Rafale will bridge the shortfall of the fast-dwindling fighter squadrons. India needs 45 fighter squadrons to counter a combined threat from Pakistan and China.* Currently, it has only 33, where each squadron has 18-20 jets. Of these, the vintage MiG-21 and MiG-27 form 11 squadrons. The Sukhoi 30-MKI populates 10 squadrons, the 1970s design British Jaguar six, followed by French Mirage 2000 and Soviet Union’s MiG-29 in two and three squadrons, respectively. The last three are being upgraded with better missiles and avionics.*
> 
> Rafale will be in some ways be superior to what the Chinese presently have in their arsenal, but Beijing is producing its own platforms and weapons and with the next generation J-20 fighter jet getting established, *India will need to carry forward its plans rapidly and catch up with Beijing over the next five-six years by widening its ‘make in India’ footprint.*
> 
> The first of the Rafales will start coming in by September 2019 and the full fleet shall be operational by April 2022. In the intervening period, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) led by Manohar Parrikar, needs to focus on a multi-pronged approach to meet future needs. The Rafale deal was negotiated for 18 months – ‘lightning fast’ going by MoD’s record.
> 
> As the good news filters in, the MoD is already working on multiple options –* at least four of which are known – to bridge the technology gap of the IAF and add newer planes.*
> 
> 
> *The first is to quickly induct the 106 Tejas “Mark-1A”. The MoD has set a 2018 deadline for the first aircraft to be ready with a target to complete its production by 2022-23. *
> *The second is to have an additional assembly line of Indian-made fighter jets. This could be a joint venture with a US or European company setting up a plant in collaboration with an Indian partner.*
> *The third is completion of the production schedule of 272 of the Sukhoi 30-MKI, expected by 2020. *
> *The fourth is to ink an agreement with Russia to co-develop and produce a fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) with stealth features and the works.*
> The Sukhois were ordered in phases since 1997, the IAF wants 272 of these in its fleet by 2020. The agreement for the FGFA is expected to be inked when Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Russian President Vladimir Putin meet next month.
> 
> http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/rafale-to-widen-arch-of-operations/300365.html
> +++
> Comments
> 
> I have said this before
> View attachment 338016
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-351#post-8704512
> 
> If the* article above is correct,* then point 2
> *The second is to have an additional assembly line of Indian-made fighter jets. This could be a joint venture with a US or European company setting up a plant in collaboration with an Indian partner*
> Seems to suggest a straight shootout situation as
> 
> F18SH vs Rafale ( USA vs European)
> F16 vs Rafale vs Gripen (USA vs European)
> Interesting to note, first option of F18 is not accepted by IAF as of now
> Second option is basically a LWF Single engine vs twin Engine MWF/DPSA
> 
> In both sense logic, rationality and the MII investments couple with Eric Trappier words indicate the choice is Rafale.
> 
> Yet i would love to see rationale of using either other american options (F16/F18) or Gripen instead of Rafale. This brings us to the important second part of the equation.
> In my observation for Rafale M and interaction with vstol, we discussed the following
> 
> 
> View attachment 338021
> 
> 
> View attachment 338022
> 
> 
> View attachment 338023
> 
> IF what you read above is basically the scope of IN order and its basically much sooner in the horizon owing to inadequate fleet for the carriers.
> 
> This opens up the scope of debate further, bcz these orders may be again from Merignac only unless the first MII order is Rafale M (highly unlikely). We know surely the F16/F18/Gripen E are not qualified for STOBAR config ACC.
> 
> On top, if supposing say 3 squadrons of 16 aircraft and 6 twin seater are ordered thats 54 odd Rafale Ms. Bascially 90 aircrafts from Merignac Line. Unless of course we order 45 Mig29Ks between now and 2017.
> 
> This makes me wonder, why is mainstream media still believing that a US jet or may be another European jet actually is running for a MII line, the likes of LM, Boeing and Saab....
> 
> *Again all as per the report which does not mention a second LWF which i believe is a possibility if LCA Mk2 is shelved or delayed or the foreign aircraft /LSA is rechristened as LCA Mk2 with some basic changes.*
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @Taygibay @R!CK @Armani @GuardianRED @surya kiran @Ankit Kumar 002 @Nilgiri @hellfire @Spectre @randomradio @litefire @dadeechi @[Bregs] @BON PLAN @CNL-PN-AA @Skull and Bones @MilSpec @SpArK
> 
> By any chance Am I missing something here?


There is ZERO chance of another foreign fighter outside of the Rafale being made in India at this point. Let me say that again.....ZERO.

Which foreign fighter is the ONLY one to :

1) have won the IAF's MMRCA competition and be declared L1?
2) Have a carrier version (ready and in service) able take off from STOBAR and CATOBAR carriers?
3) Has clearance from their respective Govt for the very LATEST standard to be sold to India and ToT to be transferred?
4) has actually now been ordered by the IAF?
5) has been under talks from their OEM to be made in India and is actually being taken seriously?
6) has a Govt-Govt IGA signed regarding its sale to India?


There is literally only one viable candidate at this point.


Sorry @PARIKRAMA bro, there isn't going to be a foreign LWF, the LCA Mk-1A is going to satisfy the IAF the only issues are on the production side and here this GoI is fully prepared to go the extra mile to address the issues as they arise. Furthermore the IN is heavily investing in the LCA MK.2, it will prove to be far more financially and logistically simple for the IAF to follow suit (and thus there will be a high high level of commonality between the IAF and IN; Rafale/Rafale M, MiG-29UPG/MiG-29K, LCA/N-LCA).

The only people taking a second MMRCA seriously now are the paid media or those entirely ignorant of such matters.



Nilgiri said:


> The offer for something other than Rafale for these would be terribly difficult to justify fiscally, given all the new one time costs yet again for another platform.
> 
> Anyway keeping options open only helps India in the long run for the next negotiation whenever it commences (probably after 2019 election).
> 
> Enough breathing room has been acquired in the mean time with this interim method.


Sorry bro but the IAF and IN do not have the luxury of waiting. The current off the shelf deal only amounts to 2 SQNs worth of a/c, for a good few years the IAF has been retiring 1+ SQN(s) a year and from 2019-20 the s**t is really going to hit the fan as the MiG-21 Bisons, remaining MiG-27s and DARIN II Jaguars are phased out. Furthermore by 2024 the IAF will have 3 aircraft carriers (a second Vikrant class is a certainty at this point) requiring a total of 7-8 SQNs (plus reserves) to support them but as of today the IN has a sum total of 2 in service/on order and there is no indication more MiG-29Ks are of interest to the IN. They will be requiring Rafale Ms themselves.

If one waits until after the 2019 elections then that means the deal will likely only be clinched in March 2020 and as @PARIKRAMA has rightly pointed out this comes far too close to the FGFA's projected production output.

It really is a case of now or never.



[Bregs] said:


> Any deal with US in MII specifically for a fighter aircraft is going to be sure shot pain in future so better to concentrate onh Rafale MII(both for IN and IAF), signing of FGFA deal at earliest, Super sukhois upgrades and fattier n timely induction of tejas at least now. Gripen wont bring in any thing strategic to us


The biggest joke, As I'm sure @PARIKRAMA will agree, is having known what was offered to India (the Rafale F3++ standard) Boeing had the audacity to offer the ASH to India in an effort to match Dassualt but this offer was made without USG approval. As a result the Boeing pitch is entirely null and void, the US won't clear that product to be made in India (not that any form of critical ToT is even remotely on the table).

So much for the new "strategic partnership" between India and the US. To see the reality just see what the US has offered to under under DTTI; Co-production of a mini hand-held UAV (Raven), co-development of new generation CBRN resistant military uniforms and a few other bits and pieces. When it comes to the US the devil is always in the detail.

Meanwhile India has just signed a deal for Rafales in France that are explicitly nuclear weapon delivery platforms.

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## Nilgiri

Abingdonboy said:


> If one waits until after the 2019 elections then that means the deal will likely only be clinched in March 2020 and as @PARIKRAMA has rightly pointed out this comes far too close to the FGFA's projected production output.



Deliveries of these 36 only start from 2019 onwards. If they were going to be inducted quicker, then I see an earlier MII for 90+ more also being announced sooner possibly. But the way I see it, its going to be a term 2 issue (which is why Parrikar said what he said)...and they have consulted with the IAF as to what the contingencies for using MKI in more workload assignments in the interim period when IAF faces its largest squadron crunch. You are not going to get 1:1 optimisation for a long time, but you can thank UPA for that (for being under 3 trillion USD economy in nominal terms, dragging this out way longer than it should have and also not grabbing the M2000 production line when the opportunity presented itself).

But if something happens anyway in the very near future regarding Rafale MII, I will be very happy. I just don't expect it from what I see. That's all.

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> Posted at: Sep 25, 2016, 12:57 AM; last updated: Sep 25, 2016, 2:48 PM (IST)
> *Rafale to widen arch of operations*
> MoD working on multiple options, next 5-6 yrs crucial for Air Force to induct technology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first of the Rafales will start coming in by September 2019 and the full fleet shall be operational by April 2022. File photo
> 
> *Ajay Banerjee*
> 
> *Tribune News Service*
> 
> *New Delhi, September 24*
> 
> Equipped with the latest missiles which widen the arch of offensive operations, the Rafale fighter will be a potential game-changer for India’s airborne capability on several fronts.
> India has signed a contract with France to buy 36 such jets at a cost of Rs 58,828 crore, a huge sum but modern technology does not come cheap.
> 
> *Chiefly the Rafale will provide: dependability of having the very latest technology-backed air-strike platform; ability to hit enemy targets which are further away due to its flight radius of some 1,000 km; be available for five sorties per day instead of three of the Sukhoi 30 MKI; a new set of onboard radars to help pilots navigate and also strike; a new set of missiles that hit targets further away; and infusion of new technology in the Indian Air Force that is presently operating at its lowest level of fighter jets in the past decade.*
> 
> The Rafale will bridge the shortfall of the fast-dwindling fighter squadrons. India needs 45 fighter squadrons to counter a combined threat from Pakistan and China.* Currently, it has only 33, where each squadron has 18-20 jets. Of these, the vintage MiG-21 and MiG-27 form 11 squadrons. The Sukhoi 30-MKI populates 10 squadrons, the 1970s design British Jaguar six, followed by French Mirage 2000 and Soviet Union’s MiG-29 in two and three squadrons, respectively. The last three are being upgraded with better missiles and avionics.*
> 
> Rafale will be in some ways be superior to what the Chinese presently have in their arsenal, but Beijing is producing its own platforms and weapons and with the next generation J-20 fighter jet getting established, *India will need to carry forward its plans rapidly and catch up with Beijing over the next five-six years by widening its ‘make in India’ footprint.*
> 
> The first of the Rafales will start coming in by September 2019 and the full fleet shall be operational by April 2022. In the intervening period, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) led by Manohar Parrikar, needs to focus on a multi-pronged approach to meet future needs. The Rafale deal was negotiated for 18 months – ‘lightning fast’ going by MoD’s record.
> 
> As the good news filters in, the MoD is already working on multiple options –* at least four of which are known – to bridge the technology gap of the IAF and add newer planes.*
> 
> 
> *The first is to quickly induct the 106 Tejas “Mark-1A”. The MoD has set a 2018 deadline for the first aircraft to be ready with a target to complete its production by 2022-23. *
> *The second is to have an additional assembly line of Indian-made fighter jets. This could be a joint venture with a US or European company setting up a plant in collaboration with an Indian partner.*
> *The third is completion of the production schedule of 272 of the Sukhoi 30-MKI, expected by 2020. *
> *The fourth is to ink an agreement with Russia to co-develop and produce a fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) with stealth features and the works.*
> The Sukhois were ordered in phases since 1997, the IAF wants 272 of these in its fleet by 2020. The agreement for the FGFA is expected to be inked when Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Russian President Vladimir Putin meet next month.
> 
> http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/rafale-to-widen-arch-of-operations/300365.html
> +++
> Comments
> 
> I have said this before
> View attachment 338016
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-351#post-8704512
> 
> If the* article above is correct,* then point 2
> *The second is to have an additional assembly line of Indian-made fighter jets. This could be a joint venture with a US or European company setting up a plant in collaboration with an Indian partner*
> Seems to suggest a straight shootout situation as
> 
> F18SH vs Rafale ( USA vs European)
> F16 vs Rafale vs Gripen (USA vs European)
> Interesting to note, first option of F18 is not accepted by IAF as of now
> Second option is basically a LWF Single engine vs twin Engine MWF/DPSA
> 
> In both sense logic, rationality and the MII investments couple with Eric Trappier words indicate the choice is Rafale.
> 
> Yet i would love to see rationale of using either other american options (F16/F18) or Gripen instead of Rafale. This brings us to the important second part of the equation.
> In my observation for Rafale M and interaction with vstol, we discussed the following
> 
> 
> View attachment 338021
> 
> 
> View attachment 338022
> 
> 
> View attachment 338023
> 
> IF what you read above is basically the scope of IN order and its basically much sooner in the horizon owing to inadequate fleet for the carriers.
> 
> This opens up the scope of debate further, bcz these orders may be again from Merignac only unless the first MII order is Rafale M (highly unlikely). We know surely the F16/F18/Gripen E are not qualified for STOBAR config ACC.
> 
> On top, if supposing say 3 squadrons of 16 aircraft and 6 twin seater are ordered thats 54 odd Rafale Ms. Bascially 90 aircrafts from Merignac Line. Unless of course we order 45 Mig29Ks between now and 2017.
> 
> This makes me wonder, why is mainstream media still believing that a US jet or may be another European jet actually is running for a MII line, the likes of LM, Boeing and Saab....
> 
> *Again all as per the report which does not mention a second LWF which i believe is a possibility if LCA Mk2 is shelved or delayed or the foreign aircraft /LSA is rechristened as LCA Mk2 with some basic changes.*
> 
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @Taygibay @R!CK @Armani @GuardianRED @surya kiran @Ankit Kumar 002 @Nilgiri @hellfire @Spectre @randomradio @litefire @dadeechi @[Bregs] @BON PLAN @CNL-PN-AA @Skull and Bones @MilSpec @SpArK
> 
> By any chance Am I missing something here?





Abingdonboy said:


> There is ZERO chance of another foreign fighter outside of the Rafale being made in India at this point. Let me say that again.....ZERO.
> 
> Which foreign fighter is the ONLY one to :
> 
> 1) have won the IAF's MMRCA competition and be declared L1?
> 2) Have a carrier version (ready and in service) able take off from STOBAR and CATOBAR carriers?
> 3) Has clearance from their respective Govt for the very LATEST standard to be sold to India and ToT to be transferred?
> 4) has actually now been ordered by the IAF?
> 5) has been under talks from their OEM to be made in India and is actually being taken seriously?
> 6) has a Govt-Govt IGA signed regarding its sale to India?
> 
> 
> There is literally only one viable candidate at this point.
> 
> 
> Sorry @PARIKRAMA bro, there isn't going to be a foreign LWF, the LCA Mk-1A is going to satisfy the IAF the only issues are on the production side and here this GoI is fully prepared to go the extra mile to address the issues as they arise. Furthermore the IN is heavily investing in the LCA MK.2, it will prove to be far more financially and logistically simple for the IAF to follow suit (and thus there will be a high high level of commonality between the IAF and IN; Rafale/Rafale M, MiG-29UPG/MiG-29K, LCA/N-LCA).
> 
> The only people taking a second MMRCA seriously now are the paid media or those entirely ignorant of such matters.
> 
> 
> Sorry bro but the IAF and IN do not have the luxury of waiting. The current off the shelf deal only amounts to 2 SQNs worth of a/c, for a good few years the IAF has been retiring 1+ SQN(s) a year and from 2019-20 the s**t is really going to hit the fan as the MiG-21 Bisons, remaining MiG-27s and DARIN II Jaguars are phased out. Furthermore by 2024 the IAF will have 3 aircraft carriers (a second Vikrant class is a certainty at this point) requiring a total of 7-8 SQNs (plus reserves) to support them but as of today the IN has a sum total of 2 in service/on order and there is no indication more MiG-29Ks are of interest to the IN. They will be requiring Rafale Ms themselves.
> 
> If one waits until after the 2019 elections then that means the deal will likely only be clinched in March 2020 and as @PARIKRAMA has rightly pointed out this comes far too close to the FGFA's projected production output.
> 
> It really is a case of now or never.
> 
> 
> The biggest joke, As I'm sure @PARIKRAMA will agree, is having known what was offered to India (the Rafale F3++ standard) Boeing had the audacity to offer the ASH to India in an effort to match Dassualt but this offer was made without USG approval. As a result the Boeing pitch is entirely null and void, the US won't clear that product to be made in India (not that any form of critical ToT is even remotely on the table).
> 
> So much for the new "strategic partnership" between India and the US. To see the reality just see what the US has offered to under under DTTI; Co-production of a mini hand-held UAV (Raven), co-development of new generation CBRN resistant military uniforms and a few other bits and pieces. When it comes to the US the devil is always in the detail.
> 
> Meanwhile India has just signed a deal for Rafales in France that are explicitly nuclear weapon delivery platforms.


Excellent Write up guys (positive rating for these two gentlemen)

Totally Agree with you, any military planning with avg intelligence can also it that a second LWF line will be a "ludicous" or a bad idea in the history of bad ideas.

But unfortunately, we are seeing reports, counter-reports, articles , interviews from our favours defence journos that it has filled the entire news space, that people have started to believe that nonsense.

Stick to the Rafale and its variants, meet the deadlines and agreements , have no unnecessary delays. Support and improve the Tejas and NLCA and its variants. 

KEEP IT SIMPLE PEOPLE!

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## PARIKRAMA

Abingdonboy said:


> The biggest joke, As I'm sure @PARIKRAMA will agree, is having known what was offered to India (the Rafale F3++ standard) Boeing had the audacity to offer the ASH to India in an effort to match Dassualt but this offer was made without USG approval. As a result the Boeing pitch is entirely null and void, the US won't clear that product to be made in India (not that any form of critical ToT is even remotely on the table).
> 
> So much for the new "strategic partnership" between India and the US. To see the reality just see what the US has offered to under under DTTI; Co-production of a mini hand-held UAV (Raven), co-development of new generation CBRN resistant military uniforms and a few other bits and pieces. When it comes to the US the devil is always in the detail.
> 
> Meanwhile India has just signed a deal for Rafales in France that are explicitly nuclear weapon delivery platforms.



Would you hear the bigger joke. - ASH clearance is withdrawn. Boeing themselves withdrew it as they felt it will be not cleared even if the Boeing is 100% directly control the Indian Line. So basically its SH only. So no more IWB stuff. No more stealth future talks.. and SH is inferior to Rafale. On top No one had taken clearance from Senate.

The present USG and the Senate is already preparing for the transition stage . In no manner the most of the biggest bills and deals will get approved. Nor we can expect a new POTUS to sign and clear a new fighter jet deal with India within 6 months of becoming the prez. In simple words, we can safely assume that if DM MP sticks to march 2017 timeline, its virtually impossible to get approvals in place inspite of best known assurances...

If people really talk about Engine GE414 thing then F16 does not give it to us its F18SH or a Gripen E. Now we knwo for sure if USG is actually keen to give us the Jet engine tech or its another carrot being dangled.

Last time , the Dassault group planned an MII line was with Reliance Mukesh group for Wings production and other component manufacturing. The assembly was suppose to be based out of Bangalore and cost of setup as part of DA investment was approx $220 Mn and Indian exchange Rs 1500 Crores approx. So an assembly line i suppose even if i take into consideration some more amount also, its at best an investment of not more than $300 Mn from DA side as on today with almost Rs 2000 Crores kind o figure. Its very much possible that this is easily covered by Reliance Defence Anil Ambani group and withThales JV with Samtel and BEL roped in along with Safran GTRE aspect and some more minor players in supply chain all as part of a consortium, the MII line can be up and running much quicker then earlier expectation.

Strangely the media is never able to fins such simple news. I wonder why...

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> That would be a wrong assumption bro, assuming the MII line approval is given in march 2017 or max by Dec 2017, the line setup itself will take 3 years so consumption of time puts us in 2021. Again kit based assembly will require at least say 15-18 months for initial low production rate so 2022+ timeline for first MII rafale to roll out.
> 
> If we take a call post 2019 elections or 2020, line finishes by 2024 and first plane comes out at 2026 kind of timeline right when FGFA is also available at low production rate from HAL line.
> Fiscally it will be impossible to maintain a cost of $200Mn 5th gen fighter along with say a $85 Mn fighter together at one go. In other words, it will be prudent if we space out Rafale MII and FGFA MII production by at least 5 years to have some breathing space. Anyways HAL time is not considered at all for this equation..
> 
> 
> Also consider the squadron strength dipping below 30 uptill that point of time with this plan



OK so you are confident for 2017. Lets hope you are right. I will wait and see.

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## GuardianRED

Abingdonboy said:


> There is ZERO chance of another foreign fighter outside of the Rafale being made in India at this point. Let me say that again.....ZERO.
> 
> Which foreign fighter is the ONLY one to :
> 
> 1) have won the IAF's MMRCA competition and be declared L1?
> 2) Have a carrier version (ready and in service) able take off from STOBAR and CATOBAR carriers?
> 3) Has clearance from their respective Govt for the very LATEST standard to be sold to India and ToT to be transferred?
> 4) has actually now been ordered by the IAF?
> 5) has been under talks from their OEM to be made in India and is actually being taken seriously?
> 6) has a Govt-Govt IGA signed regarding its sale to India?
> 
> 
> There is literally only one viable candidate at this point.
> 
> 
> Sorry @PARIKRAMA bro, there isn't going to be a foreign LWF, the LCA Mk-1A is going to satisfy the IAF the only issues are on the production side and here this GoI is fully prepared to go the extra mile to address the issues as they arise. Furthermore the IN is heavily investing in the LCA MK.2, it will prove to be far more financially and logistically simple for the IAF to follow suit (and thus there will be a high high level of commonality between the IAF and IN; Rafale/Rafale M, MiG-29UPG/MiG-29K, LCA/N-LCA).
> 
> The only people taking a second MMRCA seriously now are the paid media or those entirely ignorant of such matters.
> 
> 
> Sorry bro but the IAF and IN do not have the luxury of waiting. The current off the shelf deal only amounts to 2 SQNs worth of a/c, for a good few years the IAF has been retiring 1+ SQN(s) a year and from 2019-20 the s**t is really going to hit the fan as the MiG-21 Bisons, remaining MiG-27s and DARIN II Jaguars are phased out. Furthermore by 2024 the IAF will have 3 aircraft carriers (a second Vikrant class is a certainty at this point) requiring a total of 7-8 SQNs (plus reserves) to support them but as of today the IN has a sum total of 2 in service/on order and there is no indication more MiG-29Ks are of interest to the IN. They will be requiring Rafale Ms themselves.
> 
> If one waits until after the 2019 elections then that means the deal will likely only be clinched in March 2020 and as @PARIKRAMA has rightly pointed out this comes far too close to the FGFA's projected production output.
> 
> It really is a case of now or never.
> 
> 
> The biggest joke, As I'm sure @PARIKRAMA will agree, is having known what was offered to India (the Rafale F3++ standard) Boeing had the audacity to offer the ASH to India in an effort to match Dassualt but this offer was made without USG approval. As a result the Boeing pitch is entirely null and void, the US won't clear that product to be made in India (not that any form of critical ToT is even remotely on the table).
> 
> So much for the new "strategic partnership" between India and the US. To see the reality just see what the US has offered to under under DTTI; Co-production of a mini hand-held UAV (Raven), co-development of new generation CBRN resistant military uniforms and a few other bits and pieces. When it comes to the US the devil is always in the detail.
> 
> Meanwhile India has just signed a deal for Rafales in France that are explicitly nuclear weapon delivery platforms.


Simple Curiosity : Why do you think the DARINII Jags would be phased out? These frames are to upgraded to DARINIII and Hopefully new engines yes?

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## PARIKRAMA

Nilgiri said:


> OK so you are confident for 2017. Lets hope you are right. I will wait and see.


LOL, Not really Bro, if this approval is to be given in this NDA 1 term, i believe the following timeline may be best applicable





https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-346#post-8697166

If its shifted to NDA-2 as you say, then it can be even much later. But yes NDA1- anything between Mar2017 to Aug 2018.

If its Indian Standard Time, add 8-10 years to march 2017 so anywhere between March 2025-27.

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## indo

Why isn't the option of private assembly line by L&T for LCA being considered ?

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> LOL, Not really Bro, if this approval is to be given in this NDA 1 term, i believe the following timeline may be best applicable
> 
> View attachment 338036
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-346#post-8697166
> 
> If its shifted to NDA-2 as you say, then it can be even much later. But yes NDA1- anything between Mar2017 to Aug 2018.
> 
> If its Indian Standard Time, add 8-10 years to march 2017 so anywhere between March 2025-27.



Yes see....you understand the IST phenomenon haha. But with diligence of this administration relatively speaking....I am no longer so scared about crazy amount of time being taken for crucial requirements.

It will suck if (as I think) it will be a term 2 thing....but it sucks a lot less than standard IST hehe. IAF can barely get by, there will be a big hit for some years but they wont be paralysed for decades I dont think....and there are contingencies with MKI etc that can be harnessed (less optimal but available).

If its term 1 thing, I will add another feather to cap of DM and Modi admin defence wise....on top of this one I have given for seeing through these 36 rafales....while facing (or pretending to face hehe) all the pressure.

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## PARIKRAMA

indo said:


> Why isn't the option of private assembly line by L&T for LCA being considered ?


Not a topic for this thread my friend, but still...
HAL turf war. They dont wish to share LCA Mk1A production to L&T as on date. Its their survival instinct and wish to be monopolistic. Their contention seems to be investments already made from their side.Also they realise, L&T with better project management skills and efficiency will anyway garner more accolades and to accommodate L&T, MOD will order a bigger share from them as well.

This should not surprise us at all. Its every PSU who acts like this.. Nothing new at all..But soon there seems to be a review on LCA project and progress of productivity rates which seems now to be more realistic estimated to peak in between 2021-25 types. This may actually trigger involvement of L&T but again for that more numbers of LCA Mk1A has to be firmed or LCA Mk2 project completely be given out to L&T as well as any other aircraft (LSA Ghost/ GripenE) as LCA Mk2 project as well. Thats the risk HAL is playing with. IAF anyway will be not happy as they wanted 4 LCA by airforce day and now is getting 2 SPs and 1 static model and DM MP will see all that as well.

Somewhere HAL has to utilise some of the best known pvt sector companies and stop protecting its turf if it does not want itself out of Tejas project in future iterations.

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> That would be a wrong assumption bro, assuming the MII line approval is given in march 2017 or max by Dec 2017, the line setup itself will take 3 years so consumption of time puts us in 2021. Again kit based assembly will require at least say 15-18 months for initial low production rate so 2022+ timeline for first MII rafale to roll out.
> 
> If we take a call post 2019 elections or 2020, line finishes by 2024 and first plane comes out at 2026 kind of timeline right when FGFA is also available at low production rate from HAL line.
> Fiscally it will be impossible to maintain a cost of $200Mn 5th gen fighter along with say a $85 Mn fighter together at one go. In other words, it will be prudent if we space out Rafale MII and FGFA MII production by at least 5 years to have some breathing space. Anyways HAL time is not considered at all for this equation..
> 
> 
> Also consider the squadron strength dipping below 30 uptill that point of time with this plan



We had the first MKIs delivered in kits in 2 years after contract signature.



indo said:


> Why isn't the option of private assembly line by L&T for LCA being considered ?



IAF offered it in 2014, including billions in assured orders, no one took it.

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## anant_s

We can keep on deliberating on his matter, but given what DM said a day or two before Rafale deal was signed is an indication that future is sealed firmly in favor of Rafale.
LCA Mark 1A is definitely a certainty and now its a matter of streamlining production and these should start arriving in steady stream come 2020/21. By that time MKI lines would've done their work and perhaps gearing up for FGFA and the current Rafale induction would be in its last legs.
So realistically, the scenario could be as follows by end of this decade:


HAL: New line producing LCA and its variants.
HAL: New line for FGFA functional with low rate delivery initially

Private Vendor: Rafale production line in commissioning 

AMCA: Prototype development work in some stage of completion. 
Effectively that means two matured platforms in full swing production and induction and a new platform under initial phases of manufacturing and induction and one entirely new concept getting off from drawing board.
Beyond this, i don't think we should venture into any new territory, this mix assures that we remain abreast with latest technology, maintain only a few numbers of worthy platforms, cover all threat perceptions and above all donot spread our budget thin on N numbers of options. 

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

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## BON PLAN

Hephaestus said:


> Are you sure. I think PAF already have it.


even not induced in the USAF or USN, so not in the PAF before.... 15 years ?



Hassan Guy said:


> France doesn't really have the Capacity to produce that many in a few years


France alone maybe not, even if with a max capacity of 33 plane/year we could boost your fleet faster than you have the funds for it I think 
But with MII, it's another history.

All depend of YOU. It's not a question of capacity.

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## Abingdonboy

GuardianRED said:


> Simple Curiosity : Why do you think the DARINII Jags would be phased out? These frames are to upgraded to DARINIII and Hopefully new engines yes?


Not all DARIN II jets will be upgraded to DARIN III and re-engined A sizeable chunk of jaguar SQNs will begin being phased out in the next 7 years exposing a considerable gap in the IAF's DPSA fleet the needs to be filled.



BON PLAN said:


> France alone maybe not, even if with a max capacity of 33 plane/year we could boost your fleet faster than you have the funds for it I think
> But with MII, it's another history.
> 
> All depend of YOU. It's not a question of capacity.



I hope you're aware Hassan isn't Indian mate

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## Nilgiri

Abingdonboy said:


> I hope you're aware Hassan isn't Indian mate



You being any hypothetical customer of the French.

You know the penchant the French have with business of military items

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## skyisthelimit

Hello Fellow Members,
where can i find the information to read more on Indian Rafael deal to get insights.

a link explaining details would be great. Thanks a lot

regards;


----------



## zebra7

skyisthelimit said:


> Hello Fellow Members,
> where can i find the information to read more on Indian Rafael deal to get insights.
> 
> a link explaining details would be great. Thanks a lot
> 
> regards;



This sticky thread is the best place to find all the information without scraching your head on the internet web.

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## PARIKRAMA

A little long article that came in my mail..
But pls read it.. Its a refresher course of whats discussed here but then again why i posted here is the misinformation and mad campaign against Rafale.

+++
REPORTS
*Rafale deal: Is it really an “exorbitant deal” as claimed by “experts”*

Posted on September 26, 2016

Last week, the Union cabinet cleared the long-awaited purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets from Dassault Aviation. With this Rs 58000 crore deal, the nearly two-decade-long Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) saga finally comes to an end. All 36 planes will be delivered to India in a span of 66 months.

The deal was inked after negotiations that lasted close to 18 months, with the Indian side finally bringing down the price by approximately Rs 2460 crores, according to Defence Ministry sources. Even after this, we saw some memes on social media claiming that this was a very bad deal financially:






A sample of the memes floating around

Even defence “experts” like Saikat Datta and Ajai Shukla raised their doubts. Saikat writes (emphasis added):

_Some have claimed that the Indian government managed to bring the price down significantly to about Rs 58,000 crore. But different figures have been provided by the defence minister. The original price for 126 aircraft was pegged at Rs 90,000 crore, he said in an interview to Doordarshan on April 13, 2015. He revised this figure to Rs 1.3 lakh crore in a subsequent interview to PTI. *How this figure was escalated by the defence minister has not been explained*. However, if the earlier figure of Rs 90,000 crore is correct then the *36 aircraft are nearly double the cost of the original deal to buy 126 of them*._

Ajai Shukla wrote in his first blog, parroted an identical argument, as if both he and Saikat were fed by the same source (emphasis added):

_Speaking to Doordarshan on April 13, 2015, Parrikar had revealed Rafale’s bid for 126 fighters, stating: “When you talk of 126 [Rafale] aircraft, it becomes a purchase of about Rs 90,000 crore”, i.e. Rs 715 crore per fighter after adding all costs. Now Parrikar would be buying 36 Rafale fighters for Euro 7.8 billion (Rs 58,000 crore), which is over Rs 1,600 crore per aircraft — *more than double the earlier price*_

So is the latest Rafale deal really a bad one? Not really, considering that the UPA’s Rafale Deal and the latest deal are incomparable as far as the details are concerned, hence comparing the costs of the two without factoring in the differences is basically intellectual dishonesty.

So is the latest Rafale deal really a bad one? Not really, considering that the UPA’s Rafale Deal and the latest deal are incomparable as far as the details are concerned, hence comparing the costs of the two without factoring in the differences is basically intellectual dishonesty.

The original deal for the Rafale was indeed pegged at around Rs 90,000 crore during the UPA era sometime in 2012. But from there till now when the deal was actually finalised, many terms and conditions have changed. India has managed to squeeze in many add-ons into the new deal.

1. Dassault has agreed to make India-specific modifications to the planes, allowing the integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays. The aircraft will be customised in line with the requirements of the IAF which include radar warning receiver, Doppler beam radar, infrared search and track among others.

2. The deal includes the supply of Meteor, an air to air missile, and Storm Shadow (also known as SCALP), an air-launched cruise missile with a range of over 560 km, with the Rafales. These additions mean the IAF can hit targets inside both Pakistan and Tibet while still staying within India’s own territorial boundary.

3. The deal is said to include a provision for a complete transfer of technology, including for the Thales RBE2-AA radar and software source code, spare parts and maintenance. The French have agreed to supply spares for a period of seven years at initial cost.

4. In addition, the French are also guaranteeing performance-based logistics support, which means that 75 per cent of the fleet will have to be airworthy at any given time. Till three years ago, only about 48 per cent of the Sukhoi fleet was able to fly at any given time, because of poor maintenance.

5. The deal provides for free training of 9 IAF personnel, including three pilots. The IAF will also get a guarantee for an additional 60 hours for the trainer version of Rafale fighters, and a concession to keep the weapons storage in France for an additional six months without any charge (in case the Indian infrastructure is not ready for storing the weapons).

6. The deal comes with a 50% offset clause which means that Indian companies, big and small, will get businesses worth over €3 billion. One main point of the offset was that 74% of it has to be imported from India. This means a lot of business and job opportunities in India, people familiar with the matter said.

7. The deal price was calculated on actual cost (price as on today) plus European inflation indices. In order to further reduce costs, the MoD has capped the European Inflation Indices to maximum 3.5 per cent a year. Thus, if inflation indices go down, India will have to pay less. Even if it goes up India will not pay more than 3.5 per cent increase. By negotiating the inflation at actual indices, but limited to 3.5 per cent, in comparison to 4 per cent or more in earlier deals, we are said to save Rs 4,000-14,000 crore over the deal

8. In the original proposal, the first batch of 18 planes were to be manufactured in France, and the next 108 were to be manufactured in India. Later, as negotiations began, it was discovered that the cost would go up substantially (in fact to the tune of Rs 150 crore per plane) since the cost of labour man hours in India were 2.7 times higher than in France. In contrast, the new Rafale deal is for purchase of 36 aircraft in ready to flycondition meaning the planes would be made in France, eliminating the above price escalation.

Thus, in the original UPA Rafale deal, as the graphic above shows, the price for a Rafale jet itself, just the aircraft, as fixed in 2012 odd was approximately Rs 629 crores per aircraft. This is excluding the estimated price increase of approximately Rs 150 crores per aircraft due to difference in labour rates, as explained

In the latest Rafale Deal which has been finalised, the “plain vanilla price” (of just the aircraft, excluding above add-ons) is about Rs 712 crores per aircraft as per the Economic Times and about Rs 687 crores as per PTI.

Ajai Shukla, in his first blog, claimed that the new price was “over Rs 1,600 crore per aircraft”. In the same blog, he then deducted some amount for all the add-ons and arrived at “price of each at over Rs 1,000 crore” per aircraft, Finally, in his second blog he conceded that the bare-bones price of each aircraft would be around Rs 686 crores per aircraft:





*So this defence “expert” Ajai Shukla has pegged 3 different prices per aircraft over the span of 2 blogs over 2 days. What caused this change of facts? In the second blog he claimed to have talked to MoD Officials. So are we to conclude, the assertions in the first blog were largely ill-informed “facts” which were not verified?*

*Saikat Datta too had made similar claims: “the 36 aircraft are nearly double the cost of the original deal to buy 126 of them”. While Ajai Shukla at least mentioned some of the add-ons which were obtained, which explained the change in cost, Saikat Datta was completely silent on all these aspects, even though they were in public domain. Being a journalist on the defence beat, one would expect him to surely know about these. In fact other journalists had a faint idea about the add-ons even back in May 2015. Certainly strange that Saikat Datta completely failed to mention them and in fact even claimed “How this figure was escalated by the defence minister has not been explained”.*

*Irrespective of above ramblings by “experts” the point is this: The price of just the aircraft, has risen from about Rs 629 crores in 2012 to about Rs 685 crores in 2016 which is a paltry CAGR of 2.16%, and can be easily attributed to inflation and currency fluctuation. Only a fool would expect the price to be constant over 4 years.*

In totality, the Rafale deal seems to be a good proposition. Of course just 36 aircraft will not suffice and India will soon have to start negotiations for further procurement, but this indeed is a good deal to close. In the mean-time, it is advisable to take unverified opinions with a truckload of salt, especially after revelations of the existence of “Agusta Patrakars”, journalists who were on the payroll of defence companies during the Agusta-Westland scam.

http://www.opindia.com/2016/09/rafale-deal-is-it-really-an-exorbitant-deal-as-claimed-by-experts/

For Reference:





A dip of 25% from September 2012.

Not taking any sides, but merely pointing the vendetta being played by some sections of the media and in turn getting boots over their own changing positions.

Tagging all so that can read and wonder really....

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others

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## [Bregs]

*India’s Rafale deal belies strained procurement ability*

Military’s scaled-back agreement to buy fighter jets shows weakness as tensions with Pakistan flare






India has finally inked an €8bn agreement to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from France’s Dassault. Last week’s deal is one of the biggest weapons contracts New Delhi has ever signed and should plug a significant gap in the country’s air force.

But, while the initial reaction might be relief, the protracted negotiations and the reduction of the deal to a third of its original size underscores the long-running problems with Indian defence procurement, an even more pressing concern given rising tensions with Pakistan. And while Narendra Modi enjoys the credit for a deal he personally helped broker, the Indian prime minister must now also work out where he gets the 90 aircraft he chose not to buy.



image​
“This is a major, major step forward for the Indian air force. This deal has dominated their thinking for a very long time, to the detriment of other programmes,” said Ajai Shukla, a retired Indian army colonel and defence analyst. “But the huge negative is that 36 aircraft is just not enough.”

India has known for a decade it needs to replace its fleet of Russian-built MiG-21s, which were bought between the 1960s and early 1980s. These aircraft have historically high accident rates, peaking in the 1990s at around 25 per 100,000 flying hours, five times the current Nato average.

And across the Indian air force, jets are often grounded: the highest availability rate is among the Russian-built SU-30MKIs, of around 55 per cent.

The original deal to buy 126 Rafales at a quoted price of about €12bn looked set to solve this problem, not least because the French reportedly offered to guarantee that 75 per cent of the fleet is airworthy at any one time.

The deal faltered over how much construction would be done in India, and was eventually salvaged when Mr Modi offered to buy 36 of the original 126 aeroplanes directly from the French government. That disagreement, however, highlighted tensions between Mr Modi’s government, which is trying to boost domestic manufacturing under the tagline “Make in India”, and the armed forces, which want the best equipment available anywhere in the world.

The reduced deal comes just as many Indians are clamouring for the country to assert itself militarily over Pakistan in the wake of last week’s attack on an Indian army base in Kashmir. “This is a massive problem for India,” says Walter Ladwig, a lecturer in international relations at King’s College, London. “The fact that the deal has been shrunk means the projected numbers of aircraft in each country’s air force are going to continue to tilt in Pakistan’s favour.”

The agreement has also been criticised as being too expensive. Mr Shukla pointed out: “For [the price of one Rafale] the Indian air force can buy two and a half Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters — a heavy fighter as capable as the Rafale.”

This is not the first time India has encountered problems with equipping its armed forces. The first Indian-made fighter jet, the Marut, a 1960s fighter-bomber, ended up being underpowered thanks to problems buying the right engines. In 2004, the long-delayed Arjun tank finally entered service, but by last year three-quarters werereportedly grounded thanks to multiple technical issues. Last year, India scrapped a four-year-old tender to buy 180,000 army rifles.

Part of the problem, say military academics, is that the civilian-led Indian bureaucracy is not expert enough to make the right decisions to equip India’s armed services.Scandals such as Bofors — a corruption case over the purchase of artillery in the 1980s that was eventually dropped — have also led to a paralysis in decision making, argue some.

Shashank Joshi, a senior fellow at the Royal United Services Institute think-tank, says: “The problem is, every single bureaucrat wants to get through their time in office without having a procurement scandal.”

Another issue is that procurement deals are often taken on a piecemeal basis. The Rafales will be the seventh different type of fighter jet in the Indian air force — each one bringing its own set of spare parts, logistical support and training needs.

These fighters take the total number of squadrons in the Indian air force from 33 to 35. But that remains well short of the 42 sanctioned by the government — and even further short of the 45 requested by air force chiefs.

India could ask for more Rafales to plug the gap — though with no agreed price for future purchases, negotiations would then begin all over again. It could alternatively fast-track plans to build a more advanced jet in conjunction with the Russians.

Other foreign companies such as Lockheed Martin and Saab, which failed in the original tender, are hoping there will be a re-run, but many experts think ministers are likely to propose building more Tejas aircraft, an Indian-built fighter.

Not everyone in the Indian military establishment is likely to be pleased if that is the decision, but for now, say experts, the main task is simply to fill the gaps.

“At least the deal is now done,” said Mr Shukla. “It has dominated the thinking of the ministry of defence for a very long time, to the detriment of other programmes.”

https://www.ft.com/content/d717c15c...NTc3ZS00YzRkLTkyYWYtYjMxMjZmM2U5NGZk-VG9waWNz

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4


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## ranadd

^^

Why I feel that article doesn't make sense at all? Or written by someone that is no privy to the Indigenous efforts going on?

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1


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## ashok321

*Rafale deal will bring good business for** us: Samtel chief*

*



*

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...siness-for-us-samtel-chief/article9141228.ece

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3


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## Aero

PARIKRAMA said:


> A little long article that came in my mail..
> But pls read it.. Its a refresher course of whats discussed here but then again why i posted here is the misinformation and mad campaign against Rafale.
> 
> +++
> REPORTS
> *Rafale deal: Is it really an “exorbitant deal” as claimed by “experts”*
> 
> Posted on September 26, 2016
> 
> Last week, the Union cabinet cleared the long-awaited purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets from Dassault Aviation. With this Rs 58000 crore deal, the nearly two-decade-long Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) saga finally comes to an end. All 36 planes will be delivered to India in a span of 66 months.
> 
> The deal was inked after negotiations that lasted close to 18 months, with the Indian side finally bringing down the price by approximately Rs 2460 crores, according to Defence Ministry sources. Even after this, we saw some memes on social media claiming that this was a very bad deal financially:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A sample of the memes floating around
> 
> Even defence “experts” like Saikat Datta and Ajai Shukla raised their doubts. Saikat writes (emphasis added):
> 
> _Some have claimed that the Indian government managed to bring the price down significantly to about Rs 58,000 crore. But different figures have been provided by the defence minister. The original price for 126 aircraft was pegged at Rs 90,000 crore, he said in an interview to Doordarshan on April 13, 2015. He revised this figure to Rs 1.3 lakh crore in a subsequent interview to PTI. *How this figure was escalated by the defence minister has not been explained*. However, if the earlier figure of Rs 90,000 crore is correct then the *36 aircraft are nearly double the cost of the original deal to buy 126 of them*._
> 
> Ajai Shukla wrote in his first blog, parroted an identical argument, as if both he and Saikat were fed by the same source (emphasis added):
> 
> _Speaking to Doordarshan on April 13, 2015, Parrikar had revealed Rafale’s bid for 126 fighters, stating: “When you talk of 126 [Rafale] aircraft, it becomes a purchase of about Rs 90,000 crore”, i.e. Rs 715 crore per fighter after adding all costs. Now Parrikar would be buying 36 Rafale fighters for Euro 7.8 billion (Rs 58,000 crore), which is over Rs 1,600 crore per aircraft — *more than double the earlier price*_
> 
> So is the latest Rafale deal really a bad one? Not really, considering that the UPA’s Rafale Deal and the latest deal are incomparable as far as the details are concerned, hence comparing the costs of the two without factoring in the differences is basically intellectual dishonesty.
> 
> So is the latest Rafale deal really a bad one? Not really, considering that the UPA’s Rafale Deal and the latest deal are incomparable as far as the details are concerned, hence comparing the costs of the two without factoring in the differences is basically intellectual dishonesty.
> 
> The original deal for the Rafale was indeed pegged at around Rs 90,000 crore during the UPA era sometime in 2012. But from there till now when the deal was actually finalised, many terms and conditions have changed. India has managed to squeeze in many add-ons into the new deal.
> 
> 1. Dassault has agreed to make India-specific modifications to the planes, allowing the integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays. The aircraft will be customised in line with the requirements of the IAF which include radar warning receiver, Doppler beam radar, infrared search and track among others.
> 
> 2. The deal includes the supply of Meteor, an air to air missile, and Storm Shadow (also known as SCALP), an air-launched cruise missile with a range of over 560 km, with the Rafales. These additions mean the IAF can hit targets inside both Pakistan and Tibet while still staying within India’s own territorial boundary.
> 
> 3. The deal is said to include a provision for a complete transfer of technology, including for the Thales RBE2-AA radar and software source code, spare parts and maintenance. The French have agreed to supply spares for a period of seven years at initial cost.
> 
> 4. In addition, the French are also guaranteeing performance-based logistics support, which means that 75 per cent of the fleet will have to be airworthy at any given time. Till three years ago, only about 48 per cent of the Sukhoi fleet was able to fly at any given time, because of poor maintenance.
> 
> 5. The deal provides for free training of 9 IAF personnel, including three pilots. The IAF will also get a guarantee for an additional 60 hours for the trainer version of Rafale fighters, and a concession to keep the weapons storage in France for an additional six months without any charge (in case the Indian infrastructure is not ready for storing the weapons).
> 
> 6. The deal comes with a 50% offset clause which means that Indian companies, big and small, will get businesses worth over €3 billion. One main point of the offset was that 74% of it has to be imported from India. This means a lot of business and job opportunities in India, people familiar with the matter said.
> 
> 7. The deal price was calculated on actual cost (price as on today) plus European inflation indices. In order to further reduce costs, the MoD has capped the European Inflation Indices to maximum 3.5 per cent a year. Thus, if inflation indices go down, India will have to pay less. Even if it goes up India will not pay more than 3.5 per cent increase. By negotiating the inflation at actual indices, but limited to 3.5 per cent, in comparison to 4 per cent or more in earlier deals, we are said to save Rs 4,000-14,000 crore over the deal
> 
> 8. In the original proposal, the first batch of 18 planes were to be manufactured in France, and the next 108 were to be manufactured in India. Later, as negotiations began, it was discovered that the cost would go up substantially (in fact to the tune of Rs 150 crore per plane) since the cost of labour man hours in India were 2.7 times higher than in France. In contrast, the new Rafale deal is for purchase of 36 aircraft in ready to flycondition meaning the planes would be made in France, eliminating the above price escalation.
> 
> Thus, in the original UPA Rafale deal, as the graphic above shows, the price for a Rafale jet itself, just the aircraft, as fixed in 2012 odd was approximately Rs 629 crores per aircraft. This is excluding the estimated price increase of approximately Rs 150 crores per aircraft due to difference in labour rates, as explained
> 
> In the latest Rafale Deal which has been finalised, the “plain vanilla price” (of just the aircraft, excluding above add-ons) is about Rs 712 crores per aircraft as per the Economic Times and about Rs 687 crores as per PTI.
> 
> Ajai Shukla, in his first blog, claimed that the new price was “over Rs 1,600 crore per aircraft”. In the same blog, he then deducted some amount for all the add-ons and arrived at “price of each at over Rs 1,000 crore” per aircraft, Finally, in his second blog he conceded that the bare-bones price of each aircraft would be around Rs 686 crores per aircraft:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So this defence “expert” Ajai Shukla has pegged 3 different prices per aircraft over the span of 2 blogs over 2 days. What caused this change of facts? In the second blog he claimed to have talked to MoD Officials. So are we to conclude, the assertions in the first blog were largely ill-informed “facts” which were not verified?*
> 
> *Saikat Datta too had made similar claims: “the 36 aircraft are nearly double the cost of the original deal to buy 126 of them”. While Ajai Shukla at least mentioned some of the add-ons which were obtained, which explained the change in cost, Saikat Datta was completely silent on all these aspects, even though they were in public domain. Being a journalist on the defence beat, one would expect him to surely know about these. In fact other journalists had a faint idea about the add-ons even back in May 2015. Certainly strange that Saikat Datta completely failed to mention them and in fact even claimed “How this figure was escalated by the defence minister has not been explained”.*
> 
> *Irrespective of above ramblings by “experts” the point is this: The price of just the aircraft, has risen from about Rs 629 crores in 2012 to about Rs 685 crores in 2016 which is a paltry CAGR of 2.16%, and can be easily attributed to inflation and currency fluctuation. Only a fool would expect the price to be constant over 4 years.*
> 
> In totality, the Rafale deal seems to be a good proposition. Of course just 36 aircraft will not suffice and India will soon have to start negotiations for further procurement, but this indeed is a good deal to close. In the mean-time, it is advisable to take unverified opinions with a truckload of salt, especially after revelations of the existence of “Agusta Patrakars”, journalists who were on the payroll of defence companies during the Agusta-Westland scam.
> 
> http://www.opindia.com/2016/09/rafale-deal-is-it-really-an-exorbitant-deal-as-claimed-by-experts/
> 
> For Reference:
> View attachment 338258
> 
> 
> A dip of 25% from September 2012.
> 
> Not taking any sides, but merely pointing the vendetta being played by some sections of the media and in turn getting boots over their own changing positions.
> 
> Tagging all so that can read and wonder really....
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others



Better you should write articles , these so called experts are too ill informed or ignorant to write defence articles or may be foreign payroll on work.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## GuardianRED

[Bregs] said:


> *India’s Rafale deal belies strained procurement ability*
> 
> Military’s scaled-back agreement to buy fighter jets shows weakness as tensions with Pakistan flare
> 
> View attachment 338259
> 
> 
> India has finally inked an €8bn agreement to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from France’s Dassault. Last week’s deal is one of the biggest weapons contracts New Delhi has ever signed and should plug a significant gap in the country’s air force.
> 
> But, while the initial reaction might be relief, the protracted negotiations and the reduction of the deal to a third of its original size underscores the long-running problems with Indian defence procurement, an even more pressing concern given rising tensions with Pakistan. And while Narendra Modi enjoys the credit for a deal he personally helped broker, the Indian prime minister must now also work out where he gets the 90 aircraft he chose not to buy.
> 
> 
> 
> image​
> “This is a major, major step forward for the Indian air force. This deal has dominated their thinking for a very long time, to the detriment of other programmes,” said Ajai Shukla, a retired Indian army colonel and defence analyst. “But the huge negative is that 36 aircraft is just not enough.”
> 
> India has known for a decade it needs to replace its fleet of Russian-built MiG-21s, which were bought between the 1960s and early 1980s. These aircraft have historically high accident rates, peaking in the 1990s at around 25 per 100,000 flying hours, five times the current Nato average.
> 
> And across the Indian air force, jets are often grounded: the highest availability rate is among the Russian-built SU-30MKIs, of around 55 per cent.
> 
> The original deal to buy 126 Rafales at a quoted price of about €12bn looked set to solve this problem, not least because the French reportedly offered to guarantee that 75 per cent of the fleet is airworthy at any one time.
> 
> The deal faltered over how much construction would be done in India, and was eventually salvaged when Mr Modi offered to buy 36 of the original 126 aeroplanes directly from the French government. That disagreement, however, highlighted tensions between Mr Modi’s government, which is trying to boost domestic manufacturing under the tagline “Make in India”, and the armed forces, which want the best equipment available anywhere in the world.
> 
> The reduced deal comes just as many Indians are clamouring for the country to assert itself militarily over Pakistan in the wake of last week’s attack on an Indian army base in Kashmir. “This is a massive problem for India,” says Walter Ladwig, a lecturer in international relations at King’s College, London. “The fact that the deal has been shrunk means the projected numbers of aircraft in each country’s air force are going to continue to tilt in Pakistan’s favour.”
> 
> The agreement has also been criticised as being too expensive. Mr Shukla pointed out: “For [the price of one Rafale] the Indian air force can buy two and a half Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters — a heavy fighter as capable as the Rafale.”
> 
> This is not the first time India has encountered problems with equipping its armed forces. The first Indian-made fighter jet, the Marut, a 1960s fighter-bomber, ended up being underpowered thanks to problems buying the right engines. In 2004, the long-delayed Arjun tank finally entered service, but by last year three-quarters werereportedly grounded thanks to multiple technical issues. Last year, India scrapped a four-year-old tender to buy 180,000 army rifles.
> 
> Part of the problem, say military academics, is that the civilian-led Indian bureaucracy is not expert enough to make the right decisions to equip India’s armed services.Scandals such as Bofors — a corruption case over the purchase of artillery in the 1980s that was eventually dropped — have also led to a paralysis in decision making, argue some.
> 
> Shashank Joshi, a senior fellow at the Royal United Services Institute think-tank, says: “The problem is, every single bureaucrat wants to get through their time in office without having a procurement scandal.”
> 
> Another issue is that procurement deals are often taken on a piecemeal basis. The Rafales will be the seventh different type of fighter jet in the Indian air force — each one bringing its own set of spare parts, logistical support and training needs.
> 
> These fighters take the total number of squadrons in the Indian air force from 33 to 35. But that remains well short of the 42 sanctioned by the government — and even further short of the 45 requested by air force chiefs.
> 
> India could ask for more Rafales to plug the gap — though with no agreed price for future purchases, negotiations would then begin all over again. It could alternatively fast-track plans to build a more advanced jet in conjunction with the Russians.
> 
> Other foreign companies such as Lockheed Martin and Saab, which failed in the original tender, are hoping there will be a re-run, but many experts think ministers are likely to propose building more Tejas aircraft, an Indian-built fighter.
> 
> Not everyone in the Indian military establishment is likely to be pleased if that is the decision, but for now, say experts, the main task is simply to fill the gaps.
> 
> “At least the deal is now done,” said Mr Shukla. “It has dominated the thinking of the ministry of defence for a very long time, to the detriment of other programmes.”
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/d717c15c...NTc3ZS00YzRkLTkyYWYtYjMxMjZmM2U5NGZk-VG9waWNz



Looks like they are going to parrot the Serviceability of the Su30s at 55% for a long time to come.... (Facepalm)



PARIKRAMA said:


> A little long article that came in my mail..
> But pls read it.. Its a refresher course of whats discussed here but then again why i posted here is the misinformation and mad campaign against Rafale.
> 
> +++
> REPORTS
> *Rafale deal: Is it really an “exorbitant deal” as claimed by “experts”*
> 
> Posted on September 26, 2016
> 
> Last week, the Union cabinet cleared the long-awaited purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets from Dassault Aviation. With this Rs 58000 crore deal, the nearly two-decade-long Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) saga finally comes to an end. All 36 planes will be delivered to India in a span of 66 months.
> 
> The deal was inked after negotiations that lasted close to 18 months, with the Indian side finally bringing down the price by approximately Rs 2460 crores, according to Defence Ministry sources. Even after this, we saw some memes on social media claiming that this was a very bad deal financially:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A sample of the memes floating around
> 
> Even defence “experts” like Saikat Datta and Ajai Shukla raised their doubts. Saikat writes (emphasis added):
> 
> _Some have claimed that the Indian government managed to bring the price down significantly to about Rs 58,000 crore. But different figures have been provided by the defence minister. The original price for 126 aircraft was pegged at Rs 90,000 crore, he said in an interview to Doordarshan on April 13, 2015. He revised this figure to Rs 1.3 lakh crore in a subsequent interview to PTI. *How this figure was escalated by the defence minister has not been explained*. However, if the earlier figure of Rs 90,000 crore is correct then the *36 aircraft are nearly double the cost of the original deal to buy 126 of them*._
> 
> Ajai Shukla wrote in his first blog, parroted an identical argument, as if both he and Saikat were fed by the same source (emphasis added):
> 
> _Speaking to Doordarshan on April 13, 2015, Parrikar had revealed Rafale’s bid for 126 fighters, stating: “When you talk of 126 [Rafale] aircraft, it becomes a purchase of about Rs 90,000 crore”, i.e. Rs 715 crore per fighter after adding all costs. Now Parrikar would be buying 36 Rafale fighters for Euro 7.8 billion (Rs 58,000 crore), which is over Rs 1,600 crore per aircraft — *more than double the earlier price*_
> 
> So is the latest Rafale deal really a bad one? Not really, considering that the UPA’s Rafale Deal and the latest deal are incomparable as far as the details are concerned, hence comparing the costs of the two without factoring in the differences is basically intellectual dishonesty.
> 
> So is the latest Rafale deal really a bad one? Not really, considering that the UPA’s Rafale Deal and the latest deal are incomparable as far as the details are concerned, hence comparing the costs of the two without factoring in the differences is basically intellectual dishonesty.
> 
> The original deal for the Rafale was indeed pegged at around Rs 90,000 crore during the UPA era sometime in 2012. But from there till now when the deal was actually finalised, many terms and conditions have changed. India has managed to squeeze in many add-ons into the new deal.
> 
> 1. Dassault has agreed to make India-specific modifications to the planes, allowing the integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays. The aircraft will be customised in line with the requirements of the IAF which include radar warning receiver, Doppler beam radar, infrared search and track among others.
> 
> 2. The deal includes the supply of Meteor, an air to air missile, and Storm Shadow (also known as SCALP), an air-launched cruise missile with a range of over 560 km, with the Rafales. These additions mean the IAF can hit targets inside both Pakistan and Tibet while still staying within India’s own territorial boundary.
> 
> 3. The deal is said to include a provision for a complete transfer of technology, including for the Thales RBE2-AA radar and software source code, spare parts and maintenance. The French have agreed to supply spares for a period of seven years at initial cost.
> 
> 4. In addition, the French are also guaranteeing performance-based logistics support, which means that 75 per cent of the fleet will have to be airworthy at any given time. Till three years ago, only about 48 per cent of the Sukhoi fleet was able to fly at any given time, because of poor maintenance.
> 
> 5. The deal provides for free training of 9 IAF personnel, including three pilots. The IAF will also get a guarantee for an additional 60 hours for the trainer version of Rafale fighters, and a concession to keep the weapons storage in France for an additional six months without any charge (in case the Indian infrastructure is not ready for storing the weapons).
> 
> 6. The deal comes with a 50% offset clause which means that Indian companies, big and small, will get businesses worth over €3 billion. One main point of the offset was that 74% of it has to be imported from India. This means a lot of business and job opportunities in India, people familiar with the matter said.
> 
> 7. The deal price was calculated on actual cost (price as on today) plus European inflation indices. In order to further reduce costs, the MoD has capped the European Inflation Indices to maximum 3.5 per cent a year. Thus, if inflation indices go down, India will have to pay less. Even if it goes up India will not pay more than 3.5 per cent increase. By negotiating the inflation at actual indices, but limited to 3.5 per cent, in comparison to 4 per cent or more in earlier deals, we are said to save Rs 4,000-14,000 crore over the deal
> 
> 8. In the original proposal, the first batch of 18 planes were to be manufactured in France, and the next 108 were to be manufactured in India. Later, as negotiations began, it was discovered that the cost would go up substantially (in fact to the tune of Rs 150 crore per plane) since the cost of labour man hours in India were 2.7 times higher than in France. In contrast, the new Rafale deal is for purchase of 36 aircraft in ready to flycondition meaning the planes would be made in France, eliminating the above price escalation.
> 
> Thus, in the original UPA Rafale deal, as the graphic above shows, the price for a Rafale jet itself, just the aircraft, as fixed in 2012 odd was approximately Rs 629 crores per aircraft. This is excluding the estimated price increase of approximately Rs 150 crores per aircraft due to difference in labour rates, as explained
> 
> In the latest Rafale Deal which has been finalised, the “plain vanilla price” (of just the aircraft, excluding above add-ons) is about Rs 712 crores per aircraft as per the Economic Times and about Rs 687 crores as per PTI.
> 
> Ajai Shukla, in his first blog, claimed that the new price was “over Rs 1,600 crore per aircraft”. In the same blog, he then deducted some amount for all the add-ons and arrived at “price of each at over Rs 1,000 crore” per aircraft, Finally, in his second blog he conceded that the bare-bones price of each aircraft would be around Rs 686 crores per aircraft:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So this defence “expert” Ajai Shukla has pegged 3 different prices per aircraft over the span of 2 blogs over 2 days. What caused this change of facts? In the second blog he claimed to have talked to MoD Officials. So are we to conclude, the assertions in the first blog were largely ill-informed “facts” which were not verified?*
> 
> *Saikat Datta too had made similar claims: “the 36 aircraft are nearly double the cost of the original deal to buy 126 of them”. While Ajai Shukla at least mentioned some of the add-ons which were obtained, which explained the change in cost, Saikat Datta was completely silent on all these aspects, even though they were in public domain. Being a journalist on the defence beat, one would expect him to surely know about these. In fact other journalists had a faint idea about the add-ons even back in May 2015. Certainly strange that Saikat Datta completely failed to mention them and in fact even claimed “How this figure was escalated by the defence minister has not been explained”.*
> 
> *Irrespective of above ramblings by “experts” the point is this: The price of just the aircraft, has risen from about Rs 629 crores in 2012 to about Rs 685 crores in 2016 which is a paltry CAGR of 2.16%, and can be easily attributed to inflation and currency fluctuation. Only a fool would expect the price to be constant over 4 years.*
> 
> In totality, the Rafale deal seems to be a good proposition. Of course just 36 aircraft will not suffice and India will soon have to start negotiations for further procurement, but this indeed is a good deal to close. In the mean-time, it is advisable to take unverified opinions with a truckload of salt, especially after revelations of the existence of “Agusta Patrakars”, journalists who were on the payroll of defence companies during the Agusta-Westland scam.
> 
> http://www.opindia.com/2016/09/rafale-deal-is-it-really-an-exorbitant-deal-as-claimed-by-experts/
> 
> For Reference:
> View attachment 338258
> 
> 
> A dip of 25% from September 2012.
> 
> Not taking any sides, but merely pointing the vendetta being played by some sections of the media and in turn getting boots over their own changing positions.
> 
> Tagging all so that can read and wonder really....
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others


Ajay Shukla is the one who was harping that the F35 program is a better fit for india yes? did anyone show him that the F35 recently caught fire












https://warisboring.com/the-f-35-can-just-catch-on-fire-sometimes-eecce430792b#.yxuwm8h93 

(Sorry out of topic)

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## PARIKRAMA

Courtesy @ashok321

*EXCLUSIVE: Manohar Parrikar speaks about the Rafale deal and what it means for India*
*SEP 25, 2016, 11.07 AM*







The Rs 58,000 crore deal executed by India to purchase 36 Rafale fighter jets from France is undoubtedly one the most well negotiated pacts and one that will bring along huge gains for the domestic aviation industry besides creating job openings for the people of India.

So what makes this deal, first since the purchase of Sukhois from Russiain the late 90s, a win-win for India.

In an exclusive chat with _DefenceAviationPost.com_ , Union Defence Minister, Manohar Parrikar said, "In any foreign deal, there are 3-4 things that have to be taken care of. First is the cost, which we have negotiated at a much lesser price than the earlier price being quoted by the French team."

It is noteworthy to point here that the 7.878 billion Euros deal has been clinched at a price that is 750 million euros less than what was quoted by the French team in January 2016.

"Second is the percentage of offsets which in this case is much higher than any other foreign military sales so far. This creates a huge potential for the aviation industry and is in line with the Prime Minister's Make in India initiative," the minister said.

It may be mentioned here that deal comes with a 50% offset clause which means that Indian companies will get businesses worth over 3 billion euros or Rs 22,500 crores.

Parrikar said the most significant feature of this contract are the enhancements for India which even French aircrafts do not have.

*Firstly, these fighter jets come along with state-of-the-art missile weaponry profile that increases the strike capabilities of the IAF to a great extent. It includes Meteor Beyond Visual Range (BVR) air-to-air missile with a range in excess 150 kms. Then it also comes along with Scalp (Pointed Offence) which is a long range air to surface cruise missile with a range of over 300 kms. *

*Further, these fighter jets will be customised in line with the requirements of the IAF and will include Helmet Mounted Displays, radar warning receiver, infrared search and track among others. *

"So from all directions it is a win-win deal for India. Rafale is a potent aircraft and will add to the capability of the IAF," the minister added.

*Experts say that Rafale coming fitted with Meteors and Scalp will shake up Pakistan Air Force hugely and PLAAF (air warfare branch of China) to a fair extent. *

*They added that the enhancements negotiated under the deal for 36 Rafale means that India's adversaries will need four modern fighter jets to counter one Rafale. Simply put, the enemy will need four Su30 or four F16D (latest acquired by Pakistan) or four JF17 (which again Pakistan has) to counter one Rafale with its existing capabilities. 

"This 1:4 ratio will clearly give Indian an edge over its adversaries and the deal for 36 Rafale is equivalent to procuring 144 modern fighter jets," an official said requesting anonymity. 

Timelines is another major aspect of this deal. The deliveries of fighter jets will start in 36 months and completed in 18 months thereon. *

Under the contract, the French manufacturer Dassault has to ensure that 75% of the fleet or 27 fighters are operationally available at any given time.

_*In a nutshell: Significance of Rafale Deal for India* _

*Rafale is an exceptional twin-engine fighter and is capable of carrying out all combat missions including air defence, interception, ground support,in-depth strikes, reconnaissance, anti-ship strikes and nuclear deterrence. *

*It has everything to qualify as fifth generation aircraft minus the stealth. *

*Its radar and BVR capabilities are the best in the world (so experts call it a 4.5 generation) 

Only the US has 5th Gen Fighters in F22 and F35. *

Since air power is most sensitive to technology, the offence defence ratios change significantly with each technological jump
*Experts say that Rafale coming fitted with Meteors will shake up Pakistan Air Force hugely and PLAAF to a fair extent. *

Rafale was chosen after lot of indepth studies and testing by the IAF that included Swedish Grippen, American F16 and F18, Russian MiG35, Eurofighter Typhoon and French Rafale.

http://www.businessinsider.in/EXCLU...t-it-means-for-India/articleshow/54505988.cms

+++





https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-380#post-8726014

This news article says what i said here beforehand..Nice to know information is finally reaching many news papers..

@Abingdonboy @Vergennes @SpArK @MilSpec @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @GuardianRED @Nilgiri @Armani @randomradio @hellfire @Ankit Kumar 002 @anant_s @zebra7 @[Bregs] @BON PLAN @others

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## zambino

@PARIKRAMA what about brimstone missile? We are getting it or not?

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## Aero

Where is my tag? 



PARIKRAMA said:


> Firstly, these fighter jets come along with state-of-the-art missile weaponry profile that increases the strike capabilities of the IAF to a great extent. It includes Meteor Beyond Visual Range (BVR) air-to-air missile with a range in excess 150 kms. Then it also comes along with Scalp (Pointed Offence) which is a long range air to surface cruise missile with a range of over 300 kms.


French fighters do also support these systems (Meteor in future), so what is extra we are getting (not in french configuration)?



> Further, these fighter jets will be customised in line with the requirements of the IAF and will include Helmet Mounted Displays, radar warning receiver, infrared search and track among others.


You mean by Israeli or Indian components instead of french. Is our ones superior to french?



> Experts say that Rafale coming fitted with Meteors and Scalp will shake up Pakistan Air Force hugely and PLAAF (air warfare branch of China) to a fair extent.


Agreed, It is much better than PLAAF's Python variants or PAF's AIM-120C AMRAAM.



> They added that the enhancements negotiated under the deal for 36 Rafale means that India's adversaries will need four modern fighter jets to counter one Rafale. Simply put, the enemy will need four Su30 or four F16D (latest acquired by Pakistan) to counter one Rafale with its existing capabilities.


Never understood the comparison part how 4 will matter if they are shot down long before they spot Rafale or if they managed to shoot first and avoid any loss on their part.



> or four JF17 (which again Pakistan has) to counter one Rafale with its existing capabilities


JF-17 is overrated here on PDF this with RCS of 5m2+ is simply be blown off by Rafael no matter the numbers (Unless Rafale run out of Missiles).
Frankly it is not even built to fight Aircraft like Rafale.



> "This 1:4 ratio will clearly give Indian an edge over its adversaries and the deal for 36 Rafale is equivalent to procuring 144 modern fighter jets," an official said requesting anonymity.


If this is True *Mathematicians will Rule the World*.



PARIKRAMA said:


> It has everything to qualify as fifth generation aircraft minus the stealth.
> 
> Its radar and BVR capabilities are the best in the world (so experts call it a 4.5 generation)
> 
> Only the US has 5th Gen Fighters in F22 and F35.


It is already Low Observable (RCS<1m2) , just not as much as F-35 or F-22.

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## #hydra#

PARIKRAMA said:


> Courtesy @ashok321
> 
> *EXCLUSIVE: Manohar Parrikar speaks about the Rafale deal and what it means for India*
> *SEP 25, 2016, 11.07 AM*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rs 58,000 crore deal executed by India to purchase 36 Rafale fighter jets from France is undoubtedly one the most well negotiated pacts and one that will bring along huge gains for the domestic aviation industry besides creating job openings for the people of India.
> 
> So what makes this deal, first since the purchase of Sukhois from Russiain the late 90s, a win-win for India.
> 
> In an exclusive chat with _DefenceAviationPost.com_ , Union Defence Minister, Manohar Parrikar said, "In any foreign deal, there are 3-4 things that have to be taken care of. First is the cost, which we have negotiated at a much lesser price than the earlier price being quoted by the French team."
> 
> It is noteworthy to point here that the 7.878 billion Euros deal has been clinched at a price that is 750 million euros less than what was quoted by the French team in January 2016.
> 
> "Second is the percentage of offsets which in this case is much higher than any other foreign military sales so far. This creates a huge potential for the aviation industry and is in line with the Prime Minister's Make in India initiative," the minister said.
> 
> It may be mentioned here that deal comes with a 50% offset clause which means that Indian companies will get businesses worth over 3 billion euros or Rs 22,500 crores.
> 
> Parrikar said the most significant feature of this contract are the enhancements for India which even French aircrafts do not have.
> 
> *Firstly, these fighter jets come along with state-of-the-art missile weaponry profile that increases the strike capabilities of the IAF to a great extent. It includes Meteor Beyond Visual Range (BVR) air-to-air missile with a range in excess 150 kms. Then it also comes along with Scalp (Pointed Offence) which is a long range air to surface cruise missile with a range of over 300 kms. *
> 
> *Further, these fighter jets will be customised in line with the requirements of the IAF and will include Helmet Mounted Displays, radar warning receiver, infrared search and track among others. *
> 
> "So from all directions it is a win-win deal for India. Rafale is a potent aircraft and will add to the capability of the IAF," the minister added.
> 
> *Experts say that Rafale coming fitted with Meteors and Scalp will shake up Pakistan Air Force hugely and PLAAF (air warfare branch of China) to a fair extent. *
> 
> *They added that the enhancements negotiated under the deal for 36 Rafale means that India's adversaries will need four modern fighter jets to counter one Rafale. Simply put, the enemy will need four Su30 or four F16D (latest acquired by Pakistan) or four JF17 (which again Pakistan has) to counter one Rafale with its existing capabilities.
> 
> "This 1:4 ratio will clearly give Indian an edge over its adversaries and the deal for 36 Rafale is equivalent to procuring 144 modern fighter jets," an official said requesting anonymity.
> 
> Timelines is another major aspect of this deal. The deliveries of fighter jets will start in 36 months and completed in 18 months thereon. *
> 
> Under the contract, the French manufacturer Dassault has to ensure that 75% of the fleet or 27 fighters are operationally available at any given time.
> 
> _*In a nutshell: Significance of Rafale Deal for India* _
> 
> *Rafale is an exceptional twin-engine fighter and is capable of carrying out all combat missions including air defence, interception, ground support,in-depth strikes, reconnaissance, anti-ship strikes and nuclear deterrence. *
> 
> *It has everything to qualify as fifth generation aircraft minus the stealth. *
> 
> *Its radar and BVR capabilities are the best in the world (so experts call it a 4.5 generation)
> 
> Only the US has 5th Gen Fighters in F22 and F35. *
> 
> Since air power is most sensitive to technology, the offence defence ratios change significantly with each technological jump
> *Experts say that Rafale coming fitted with Meteors will shake up Pakistan Air Force hugely and PLAAF to a fair extent. *
> 
> Rafale was chosen after lot of indepth studies and testing by the IAF that included Swedish Grippen, American F16 and F18, Russian MiG35, Eurofighter Typhoon and French Rafale.
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.in/EXCLU...t-it-means-for-India/articleshow/54505988.cms
> 
> +++
> View attachment 338292
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-380#post-8726014
> 
> This news article says what i said here beforehand..Nice to know information is finally reaching many news papers..
> 
> @Abingdonboy @Vergennes @SpArK @MilSpec @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @GuardianRED @Nilgiri @Armani @randomradio @hellfire @Ankit Kumar 002 @anant_s @zebra7 @[Bregs] @BON PLAN @others


Why we need scalp,the proposed air launched brahmos and brahmos mini have also same range. How scalp can outperform brahmos?
@Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil

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## Aero

#hydra# said:


> Why we need scalp,the proposed air launched brahmos and brahmos mini have also same range. How scalp can outperform brahmos?
> @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil


We may have to integrate Brahmos on Rafale but as Scalp is already tried/tested on Rafale.
Its operational range is more than 500 Km+.

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## Taygibay

PARIKRAMA said:


> "This 1:4 ratio will clearly give Indian an edge over its adversaries and the deal for 36 Rafale is equivalent to procuring 144 modern fighter jets," an official said requesting anonymity.



I'd like to know WHEN he said that! 

Because if it was later than Saturday
https://defence.pk/threads/the-indi...posts-here-please.451004/page-26#post-8727178

*...*​*I'll sue him for copyright! *


Of course, mine was a joke but still ...

 Tay.

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> I'd like to know WHEN he said that!
> 
> Because if it was later than Saturday
> https://defence.pk/threads/the-indi...posts-here-please.451004/page-26#post-8727178
> 
> *...*​*I'll sue him for copyright! *
> 
> 
> Of course, mine was a joke but still ...
> 
> Tay.



1:4 superiority is similar to what's been advertised for the F-35 also.

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## AugenBlick

@PARIKRAMA

Thankyou Mr. Parrikar for closing this deal

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## #hydra#

Aero said:


> We may have to integrate Brahmos on Rafale but as Scalp is already tried/tested on Rafale.
> Its operational range is more than 500 Km+.


Leave about platform, no SAMs can shoot down an aircraft launching air to surface missile from 300+ kilometers farther. So mki armed with brahmos also have the same survivability of rafale with scalp at this distance. My question is how costly scalps cab be compared to brahmos?



AugenBlick said:


> @PARIKRAMA
> 
> Thankyou Mr. Parrikar for closing this deal


Seriously I do believe like that both @PARIKRAMA and MP are same person.

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## AugenBlick

#hydra# said:


> Leave about platform, no SAMs can shoot down an aircraft launching air to surface missile from 300+ kilometers farther. So mki armed with brahmos also have the same survivability of rafale with scalp at this distance. My question is how costly scalps cab be compared to brahmos?
> 
> 
> Seriously I do believe like that both @PARIKRAMA and MP are same person.


*Parik*rama
*Parik*kar

Coincidence??
I think not

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## Hellfire

#hydra# said:


> Seriously I do believe like that both @PARIKRAMA and MP are same person.




He is the same person, indeed. That is why nothing being done on MII for IAF as our DM spends time posting on PDF

On topic you and at @AugenBlick can not use my allegations of @PARIKRAMA being Parrikar with out my permission

@Taygibay Yes I recall you making the statement of 1:4 in rafale the other day.. you should sue



AugenBlick said:


> *Parik*rama
> *Parik*kar
> 
> Coincidence??
> I think not



Jokes apart ... he is not. But his write ups are a treat ....... and a bloody thesis. That is why people troll elsewhere, here they remain spellbound.

@Blue Marlin what are you doing learning of new engines for M2K there? Come here



#hydra# said:


> Why we need scalp,the proposed air launched brahmos and brahmos mini have also same range. How scalp can outperform brahmos?
> @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil




Cluster munitions to render airfields inoperable. Plus a Brahmos NG is someway off

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## PARIKRAMA

*"With the Indian contract, Dassault Aviation has established itself as a large of combat aviation"*

PUBLISHED ON 22/09/2016 AT 7:14

*INTERVIEW Philippe Plouffe, an expert on defense issues for the Boston Consulting Group (BCG) estimates that mastering aerospace program gained both on the civil and military markets, will enable the aircraft manufacturer tricolor minimize risk when the proper execution Indian program. *





Philippe Plouffe, expert of the Defense for the Boston Consulting Group (BCG)​

*L'Usine Nouvelle. - The India has selected the Rafale. After Qatar and Egypt. Are you surprised by this string of success? 
Philippe Plouffe. - * This is not surprising. From a technical point of view first. The Rafale is emerging as the most efficient aircraft of its generation. Although the initial concept 30 years ago, its embedded electronic has continuously been modernized to be in the latest technology. It will, however, much to do with competition from new US F35 is truly a new generation of aircraft with a fuselage and a 2015 mission system. 
*From a political point view, it is not surprising either. India has two objectives. She wants to have leading defense weapons and set up local manufacturing capacity. These two goals are difficult to achieve in practice. First, sell-side, there is a reluctance to transfer sensitive technologies. Furthermore, buy-side, it is not easy to receive technology transfers. The France has been investing for 30 years in the Rafale. One does not acquire this know-how in a few years. This is not only an engineering problem but also industrial know-how.*

*Over 4 years to reach an agreement. How to interpret the duration endless negotiations ...*
We must not underestimate the scope of which will be signed. There are five major nations for procurement of defense equipment and India is one. India is also the first importer of defense equipment with contracts of $ 23 billion over the past six years. Negotiations are often complicated and lengthy. Furthermore, this contract should not be challenged because it is the result of a government to government agreement. This is the case for about 80% of transactions in India in recent years. Other types of contracts can more easily be undermined see canceled even after signing. 
In this negotiation, the Dassault teams were professional and careful to the end. The new contract is concluded on a realistic basis.Dassault was able to deny the Indian conditions for the initial contract of 126 aircraft because he felt they were not industrially acceptable. For comparison, industrial A400M (military European transport plane, note) were not able to negotiate reasonable as initial conditions. This largely explains the current difficulties they face

*Initially, the Indians were seekers for 126 devices. Does it opens perspectives for Dassault?*
This contract is indeed promising. In terms of combat aviation, the Indians indigenous programs in cooperation with the Russians. Or, make a combat aircraft is long and complex. Each time, budgets are exceeded. The overspending in the US F35 exceed 50%. Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon of the European consortium also exceeded the initial costs. For India, the slippage risk development achieved with the Russian is very significant. It is not enough to fly a plane. It is necessary that all the onboard electronics delivers the expected performance. In case of delay, the most natural solution would be to continue to provide for export. *And France is one of the only countries to have adequate technological and industrial expertise of a globally recognized level. If Indian cooperation with Russia fail, it would allow France to establish itself then as an even more strategic partner.*

*For Dassault Aviation , what is the scope of this contract? *
*With this contract, Dassault Aviation has established itself as a large of combat aviation.* The historically accessible equipment market 'made in France' only represents 5% of the global market. The United States , 50% of the global market, China and Russia have closed markets. The Grippen of Saab , the Typhoon and Rafale are fighting in a narrow band. And the French aircraft manufacturer has just won on one of the very few countries which is a significant market, with hundreds of potential devices. Like Saudi Arabia also. This is comparable to the French market, British, or German. There are very few large customers accessible. 

*How to see the contract? *
It will be a real challenge. It is not ever easy to work in a distant land with a client who is not your own government. Purchasing practices are not the same between India and France. This involves a lot of rigor in the performance to meet the expectations of the Indian customer. 
However, the Rafale Team is well prepared for the challenge.Dassault jurisdiction for enforcement programs is well established.His teams strung programs regularly renewing its family of business jets. Moreover, it is supported by partners who have solid international experience as Thales defense electronics supplier and MBDA. 

*Dassault he acquires a new dimension with such a contract? *
In purely accounting terms, no. In the end, the part that will return Dassault Aviation could reach half of the contract, or about 4 billion euros in revenue over several years. Basically, this will not change the size of the company. In terms of turnover, Thales or Airbus Group will always be much larger. 
However, this clearly will strengthen its manufacturing base and established itself as a leading player on the international stage.

http://www.usinenouvelle.com/articl...omme-un-grand-de-l-aviation-de-combat.N440527

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## Stephen Cohen

PARIKRAMA said:


> *"With the Indian contract, Dassault Aviation has established itself as a large of combat aviation"*
> 
> PUBLISHED ON 22/09/2016 AT 7:14
> 
> *INTERVIEW Philippe Plouffe, an expert on defense issues for the Boston Consulting Group (BCG) estimates that mastering aerospace program gained both on the civil and military markets, will enable the aircraft manufacturer tricolor minimize risk when the proper execution Indian program. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philippe Plouffe, expert of the Defense for the Boston Consulting Group (BCG)​
> 
> *L'Usine Nouvelle. - The India has selected the Rafale. After Qatar and Egypt. Are you surprised by this string of success?
> Philippe Plouffe. - * This is not surprising. From a technical point of view first. The Rafale is emerging as the most efficient aircraft of its generation. Although the initial concept 30 years ago, its embedded electronic has continuously been modernized to be in the latest technology. It will, however, much to do with competition from new US F35 is truly a new generation of aircraft with a fuselage and a 2015 mission system.
> *From a political point view, it is not surprising either. India has two objectives. She wants to have leading defense weapons and set up local manufacturing capacity. These two goals are difficult to achieve in practice. First, sell-side, there is a reluctance to transfer sensitive technologies. Furthermore, buy-side, it is not easy to receive technology transfers. The France has been investing for 30 years in the Rafale. One does not acquire this know-how in a few years. This is not only an engineering problem but also industrial know-how.*
> 
> *Over 4 years to reach an agreement. How to interpret the duration endless negotiations ...*
> We must not underestimate the scope of which will be signed. There are five major nations for procurement of defense equipment and India is one. India is also the first importer of defense equipment with contracts of $ 23 billion over the past six years. Negotiations are often complicated and lengthy. Furthermore, this contract should not be challenged because it is the result of a government to government agreement. This is the case for about 80% of transactions in India in recent years. Other types of contracts can more easily be undermined see canceled even after signing.
> In this negotiation, the Dassault teams were professional and careful to the end. The new contract is concluded on a realistic basis.Dassault was able to deny the Indian conditions for the initial contract of 126 aircraft because he felt they were not industrially acceptable. For comparison, industrial A400M (military European transport plane, note) were not able to negotiate reasonable as initial conditions. This largely explains the current difficulties they face
> 
> *Initially, the Indians were seekers for 126 devices. Does it opens perspectives for Dassault?*
> This contract is indeed promising. In terms of combat aviation, the Indians indigenous programs in cooperation with the Russians. Or, make a combat aircraft is long and complex. Each time, budgets are exceeded. The overspending in the US F35 exceed 50%. Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon of the European consortium also exceeded the initial costs. For India, the slippage risk development achieved with the Russian is very significant. It is not enough to fly a plane. It is necessary that all the onboard electronics delivers the expected performance. In case of delay, the most natural solution would be to continue to provide for export. *And France is one of the only countries to have adequate technological and industrial expertise of a globally recognized level. If Indian cooperation with Russia fail, it would allow France to establish itself then as an even more strategic partner.*
> 
> *For Dassault Aviation , what is the scope of this contract? *
> *With this contract, Dassault Aviation has established itself as a large of combat aviation.* The historically accessible equipment market 'made in France' only represents 5% of the global market. The United States , 50% of the global market, China and Russia have closed markets. The Grippen of Saab , the Typhoon and Rafale are fighting in a narrow band. And the French aircraft manufacturer has just won on one of the very few countries which is a significant market, with hundreds of potential devices. Like Saudi Arabia also. This is comparable to the French market, British, or German. There are very few large customers accessible.
> 
> *How to see the contract? *
> It will be a real challenge. It is not ever easy to work in a distant land with a client who is not your own government. Purchasing practices are not the same between India and France. This involves a lot of rigor in the performance to meet the expectations of the Indian customer.
> However, the Rafale Team is well prepared for the challenge.Dassault jurisdiction for enforcement programs is well established.His teams strung programs regularly renewing its family of business jets. Moreover, it is supported by partners who have solid international experience as Thales defense electronics supplier and MBDA.
> 
> *Dassault he acquires a new dimension with such a contract? *
> In purely accounting terms, no. In the end, the part that will return Dassault Aviation could reach half of the contract, or about 4 billion euros in revenue over several years. Basically, this will not change the size of the company. In terms of turnover, Thales or Airbus Group will always be much larger.
> However, this clearly will strengthen its manufacturing base and established itself as a leading player on the international stage.
> 
> http://www.usinenouvelle.com/articl...omme-un-grand-de-l-aviation-de-combat.N440527



The translation is not good

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## PARIKRAMA

I have always said this time and again.. now read this article... 

++++

26/09/2016

*Rafale: And now the Indian Navy?*
Rafale catapulted from the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle © NAVY - S. CHANNEL


France and India signed on September 23 in New Delhi, the contract finalizing the purchase of 36 Rafale combat aircraft, intended to renew the means of the Indian Air Force (IAF). After Egypt and Qatar, which have each acquired 24 aircraft in 2015, is a major success for Dassault Aviation and its partners, chief among which Thales and Safran.But above all, this is further proof of confidence in the Rafale, which no one now questions the capacity or performance, widely demonstrated through multiple interventions in recent years by the Air Force and French naval aviation, whether in Afghanistan, Libya, Mali, Iraq or Syria.

No offense to his critics, who for 15 years so often and unfairly lampooned, omitting knowingly or out of ignorance, political and geostrategic environment framing orders and the uncertainties and inevitable ramp-up times for such complex programs. The Rafale is, do not mince words, a great success, which is necessary, finally, as a pride for France and its industry, in which the program mobilizes some 500 companies and 7,000 employees.








_Air Rafale (Dassault Aviation © - K. TOKUNAGA)_



*Winner of fierce international competition*
The Indian contract crowns the best ways operational and commercial advantages of the Rafale, which has also, perhaps, not been sufficiently emphasized. For it is not a command where the political aspect, although crucial, was dominant. This first contract is the result of a competitive process extremely severe initiated by India in 2001. The MRCA project, based on the operational requirements of IAF, resulting in an international tender including all phases are carefully followed by the administration of the country. Originally, the "contract of the century" as it was called, was for 126 aircraft plus an option for sixty additional devices. In 2009, the Rafale was facing all of its international competitors: F-16 Falcon, F / A-18 Super Hornet, MiG-35, Eurofighter Typhoon and Gripen. After fierce competition and a long phase of evaluation of different models, the Rafale ended up in the final against the Typhoon in 2011 and the following year, India meant the French aircraft as the winner and began exclusive negotiations with industrial traffic.

*From 126 to 36 aircraft: the choice of the reason*
The famous contract for 126 aircraft ultimately not see the day, blocking the negotiations on the transfer of total technology wanted by India, who wanted to carry on its soil all devices . The fact that Dassault Aviation refuses to guarantee the equipment locally was directly related to the inability of the Indian industry, although having excellent skills in aeronautics, to meet at short notice such a challenge. Locally, industrial and military had also fully aware and, when India changed prime minister in May 2014, these players immediately pleaded with Narendra Modi to find a realistic alternative solution, allowing a transfer of more progressive technology. Thus the MRCA tender was abandoned, India deciding to negotiate a new contract with France. In May 2015, in Paris, the Indian Prime Minister announced that his country wanted to buy 36 Rafale "ready to fly".








_The assembly plant in Merignac (© Dassault Aviation - A. February)_



*The beginning of a new long-term partnership*
Now it is therefore all devices that come out of the factory Merignac, 28 single seaters (Rafale C) and 8 twin seater (Rafale B), with nevertheless an important part of counterparties to Indian industry. Thus, half of the contract, estimated at some € 8 billion, must be reinvested in local businesses. A condition that poses no problem this time Dassault, Thales and Safran, which developed in India a broad network of partners, particularly in the renovation program for Mirage 2000 IAF. Embedded systems, electronic components, engine parts ... *French manufacturers can rely on solid skills in India and do not show very clearly no concerns about counterparty fixed by the contract, provided that the choice is left in their acquisitions to achieve locally.*

Last Friday signed contract is in fact the basis of a long term industrial partnership and scale could be the much greater future. *Indeed, 36 were obviously not sufficient to meet the renewal requirements of the Indian Air Force, as evidenced by the first MRCA market with its target from 126 to nearly 200 new aircraft. The future park of Indian Rafale will probably be brought to grow. *








_Rafale appontant on the Charles de Gaulle (© NAVY - A. MANZANO)_



*Discussions around the Rafale*
*Especially in more squadrons of the IAF, France also proposes to renew the hunting onboard the Indian Navy. This has in fact demonstrated by the early 2010s his interest navalized version of the device, implemented by the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle. Dassault Aviation was, in particular, confirmed the possibility of embarking on Rafale on new aircraft carrier Indian. They are like their French counterpart equipped with an oblique track and stop strands for landing maneuvers. However, they do not have catapults. Still, the power of the Rafale allows it to take off on such short platforms equipped with a springboard. In air-air configuration, such employment hardly change anything. As for the air-ground configuration, lack of catapults logically reduced the carrying capacity, but at an acceptable level, knowing that it would also be possible to propose a nominal configuration by providing the aircraft with two engines of 9 tonnes thrust, instead M88 type machines of 7.5 tons each currently in service.*








_Franco-Indian exercise Varuna in 2015 (© NAVY)_



*A project which was expected the contract to the IAF*
*The interest of Indian sailors for the Rafale, reinforced by joint exercises conducted with the Charles de Gaulle during his regular deployments in the Indian Ocean, has remained quiet so far, as the studies conducted by Dassault on this potential market. The priority was obviously to the conclusion of the IAF's program and, in a country that still works pretty little joint, merging the two projects was not possible. Following the principle of "one thing at a time," French and Indians have therefore first concentrated on the Air Burst. But now that the program is on track, it is expected that the Paris talks leave around the Rafale and that this project emerges in the wake of the success that has been registered. Beyond the obvious advantage offered by possible pooling (industrial support and maintain optimized supply chain town ...) with the Rafale Air, Navy version of the device has a real added value for operational and strategic Indian fleet in full modernization facing the impressive development of the Chinese Navy.*








_The Vikramaditya (© INDIAN NAVY)_



*The MiG-29K is not entirely satisfactory*
Given the nature of some projects and stresses calendar, the Indian Navy, at first, made the choice of the Russian MiG-29K. Released in 2010, this unit is an navalized version of the fighter-bomber MiG-29M, developed in the late 80s to the Russian Air Force. So it was not designed from the outset for a job on the aircraft carrier, which however involves very important structural differences. 45 copies were ordered by India to Russia (the last to be delivered this year) to form the heart of the air wing of the new aircraft carrier Indian. First the Vikramaditya, which is none other than former Russian Gorshkov, dating back to 1987. Deeply redesigned the building was delivered in 2014 to the Indian Navy after significant delays and additional costs. It will add the new Vikrant, first aircraft carrier built in India (with Italian support, the design is derived from the Cavour), launched in 2013 and which should be operational by 2019. So that 'pending over the old aircraft carrier Viraat (ex British Hermes) continues to implement the venerable Sea Harrier vertical landing and short takeoff, the Vikramaditya gradually rises in power with his MiG-29K. But the least we can say is that Indian sailors returns are far from excellent. If the MiG-29K is probably the basis of a good airplane, the availability rate of the Indian fleet devices is apparently not satisfied with maintenance problems and supplies of spare parts and an avionics having, it is said, some weaknesses. So much so that sailors, already frustrated by the setbacks that marked the redesign of Vikramaditya, comes with five late, do not hide their disappointment with the Russian planes.








_Mig-29K on the Vikramaditya (© INDIAN NAVY)

*The key technical and logistical support*
*Which naturally promotes the candidacy of the Rafale as a potential spearhead of the future Indian naval aviation.Beyond the fact that the French unit is technologically more advanced and higher in capacity, with a unique versatility for an embedded device, Indians are also very sensitive to the issue of technical and logistical support. However, the success of Indian Mirage 2000 upgrade program, signed in 2011 and whose first two aircraft were delivered last year has further increased the confidence of the Indian military in the ability of Dassault and its partners working in India since the 50's, to ensure effective support for the long term.*








Navy Rafale catapult on the Charles de Gaulle (© NAVY)
_
End of part 1

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others

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## PARIKRAMA

*Towards a new Indian aircraft carrier catapults*
Construction of sister ship Vikrant, first introduced as a carrier air defense, was abandoned in favor of a more ambitious project on a building designed to conduct power projection operations. Known Vishal, the third Indian aircraft carrier will be greater than his older and probably catobar type, that is to say with catapults and shutdown strands. To carry out this new project, New Delhi plans to cooperate with a foreign manufacturer who has expertise in aircraft carrier. T*his is where DCNS, the only company in the world to have studied a new design of aircraft carriers, DEAC, to meet those needs.*


*DCNS offers designer*
*Long 272 meters for a displacement of 52,000 tons over, DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier (DEAC) has everything to be the basis for discussions. It is a carrier of new generation compact, designed to enable the country who has achieve similar power projection operations to those that can lead the Navy with the Charles de Gaulle. To this end, the French engineers have increased the maximum aeronautical capabilities of the platform. This offers a flight deck area of 13,500 m² and two catapults of 90 meters allowing the implementation of heavier aircraft. The flow of materials and ammunition, as well as refueling and maneuvering aircraft on the flight deck and the hangar to have been optimized to facilitate flight operations and allow 75 day trips. With two lifts 36 tonnes, the DEAC incorporates oblique track with three strands stop and emergency barrier. It can implement some forty aircraft and is manned by 900 crew members, the capacity can go up to 1770 people with the staff of Air Group and Staff.

Capable of carrying 400 tons of ammunition and 8,400 tons of fuel, DEAC has a substantial autonomy or 8000 miles at 20 knots. Capable of reaching a top speed of 28 knots, it is available with different types of powered two rows of trees, including CODLAG (Combined diesel-electric and gas) or COGAG (Combined gas turbine and gas turbine). *








_DEAC (© DCNS)_



*Several countries consulted but big advantages for French*
*Discussions have therefore begun to consider a Franco-Indian cooperation, DCNS hoping to capitalize on the good progress of Indian submarines of the Scorpene-type program, made in Technology Transfer in Mumbai and the first of which, the Kalvari, to be delivered in 2017.

Obviously, the Indians consult other country but France, with the tandem DEAC / Rafale, offers a safe and optimal solution to meet Indian needs. In terms of capacity, know-how and technology, Russians, Britons and Italians can not compete, due among other things they have no recent experience of aircraft carrier catapults. As for the Americans, their aircraft carriers are too big and expensive. France also has the advantage, not negligible, to give customers all the keys allowing them to use the equipment as they see fit, which is crucial in terms of freedom of action and sovereignty.*








_(© HESJA)

http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/rafale-et-maintenant-la-marine-indienne

+++_

Check this out.. now read and recall what i have always said..

*ACC help by DCNS .. i used the term - will be a consultant..*
*Rafale M for STOBAR*
*Rafale M stobar ops no compromise in A2A with limited capability downgrade for A2G*
*MII for IAF+IN - a huge fleet*
Enjoy !!

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others

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## Hellfire

@PARIKRAMA Damn

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## #hydra#

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Towards a new Indian aircraft carrier catapults*
> Construction of sister ship Vikrant, first introduced as a carrier air defense, was abandoned in favor of a more ambitious project on a building designed to conduct power projection operations. Known Vishal, the third Indian aircraft carrier will be greater than his older and probably catobar type, that is to say with catapults and shutdown strands. To carry out this new project, New Delhi plans to cooperate with a foreign manufacturer who has expertise in aircraft carrier. T*his is where DCNS, the only company in the world to have studied a new design of aircraft carriers, DEAC, to meet those needs.*
> 
> 
> *DCNS offers designer*
> *Long 272 meters for a displacement of 52,000 tons over, DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier (DEAC) has everything to be the basis for discussions. It is a carrier of new generation compact, designed to enable the country who has achieve similar power projection operations to those that can lead the Navy with the Charles de Gaulle. To this end, the French engineers have increased the maximum aeronautical capabilities of the platform. This offers a flight deck area of 13,500 m² and two catapults of 90 meters allowing the implementation of heavier aircraft. The flow of materials and ammunition, as well as refueling and maneuvering aircraft on the flight deck and the hangar to have been optimized to facilitate flight operations and allow 75 day trips. With two lifts 36 tonnes, the DEAC incorporates oblique track with three strands stop and emergency barrier. It can implement some forty aircraft and is manned by 900 crew members, the capacity can go up to 1770 people with the staff of Air Group and Staff.
> 
> Capable of carrying 400 tons of ammunition and 8,400 tons of fuel, DEAC has a substantial autonomy or 8000 miles at 20 knots. Capable of reaching a top speed of 28 knots, it is available with different types of powered two rows of trees, including CODLAG (Combined diesel-electric and gas) or COGAG (Combined gas turbine and gas turbine). *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _DEAC (© DCNS)_
> 
> 
> 
> *Several countries consulted but big advantages for French*
> *Discussions have therefore begun to consider a Franco-Indian cooperation, DCNS hoping to capitalize on the good progress of Indian submarines of the Scorpene-type program, made in Technology Transfer in Mumbai and the first of which, the Kalvari, to be delivered in 2017.
> 
> Obviously, the Indians consult other country but France, with the tandem DEAC / Rafale, offers a safe and optimal solution to meet Indian needs. In terms of capacity, know-how and technology, Russians, Britons and Italians can not compete, due among other things they have no recent experience of aircraft carrier catapults. As for the Americans, their aircraft carriers are too big and expensive. France also has the advantage, not negligible, to give customers all the keys allowing them to use the equipment as they see fit, which is crucial in terms of freedom of action and sovereignty.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _(© HESJA)
> 
> http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/rafale-et-maintenant-la-marine-indienne
> 
> +++_
> 
> Check this out.. now read and recall what i have always said..
> 
> *ACC help by DCNS .. i used the term - will be a consultant..*
> *Rafale M for STOBAR*
> *Rafale M stobar ops no compromise in A2A with limited capability downgrade for A2G*
> *MII for IAF+IN - a huge fleet*
> Enjoy !!
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others


If my memory is correct @Abingdonboy ,sometimes back said that ins vikrant will be hosting rafale m instead of mif29k. Is that true?

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Towards a new Indian aircraft carrier catapults*
> Construction of sister ship Vikrant, first introduced as a carrier air defense, was abandoned in favor of a more ambitious project on a building designed to conduct power projection operations. Known Vishal, the third Indian aircraft carrier will be greater than his older and probably catobar type, that is to say with catapults and shutdown strands. To carry out this new project, New Delhi plans to cooperate with a foreign manufacturer who has expertise in aircraft carrier. T*his is where DCNS, the only company in the world to have studied a new design of aircraft carriers, DEAC, to meet those needs.*
> 
> 
> *DCNS offers designer*
> *Long 272 meters for a displacement of 52,000 tons over, DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier (DEAC) has everything to be the basis for discussions. It is a carrier of new generation compact, designed to enable the country who has achieve similar power projection operations to those that can lead the Navy with the Charles de Gaulle. To this end, the French engineers have increased the maximum aeronautical capabilities of the platform. This offers a flight deck area of 13,500 m² and two catapults of 90 meters allowing the implementation of heavier aircraft. The flow of materials and ammunition, as well as refueling and maneuvering aircraft on the flight deck and the hangar to have been optimized to facilitate flight operations and allow 75 day trips. With two lifts 36 tonnes, the DEAC incorporates oblique track with three strands stop and emergency barrier. It can implement some forty aircraft and is manned by 900 crew members, the capacity can go up to 1770 people with the staff of Air Group and Staff.
> 
> Capable of carrying 400 tons of ammunition and 8,400 tons of fuel, DEAC has a substantial autonomy or 8000 miles at 20 knots. Capable of reaching a top speed of 28 knots, it is available with different types of powered two rows of trees, including CODLAG (Combined diesel-electric and gas) or COGAG (Combined gas turbine and gas turbine). *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _DEAC (© DCNS)_
> 
> 
> 
> *Several countries consulted but big advantages for French*
> *Discussions have therefore begun to consider a Franco-Indian cooperation, DCNS hoping to capitalize on the good progress of Indian submarines of the Scorpene-type program, made in Technology Transfer in Mumbai and the first of which, the Kalvari, to be delivered in 2017.
> 
> Obviously, the Indians consult other country but France, with the tandem DEAC / Rafale, offers a safe and optimal solution to meet Indian needs. In terms of capacity, know-how and technology, Russians, Britons and Italians can not compete, due among other things they have no recent experience of aircraft carrier catapults. As for the Americans, their aircraft carriers are too big and expensive. France also has the advantage, not negligible, to give customers all the keys allowing them to use the equipment as they see fit, which is crucial in terms of freedom of action and sovereignty.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _(© HESJA)
> 
> http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/rafale-et-maintenant-la-marine-indienne
> 
> +++_
> 
> Check this out.. now read and recall what i have always said..
> 
> *ACC help by DCNS .. i used the term - will be a consultant..*
> *Rafale M for STOBAR*
> *Rafale M stobar ops no compromise in A2A with limited capability downgrade for A2G*
> *MII for IAF+IN - a huge fleet*
> Enjoy !!
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others


So the ultimate decision on who will be designing/consultant on the IAC2 wil be political one. Place you bets people, IS IT the Russian, Americans or the French ??!

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## Blue Marlin

i have leaned of an interesting development. 
india has signed for the technical and financial agreements for the jet but has *not* signed for the 50% offset agreement.
thats the hardest part.

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## Abingdonboy

Aero said:


> We may have to integrate Brahmos on Rafale but as Scalp is already tried/tested on Rafale.
> Its operational range is more than 500 Km+.


Answered a few pages back in more detail but basically the Rafale is at least a decade away from getting integrated with the Brahmos, the SCALP is integrated today and will be with the IAF's Rafales from 2019.



#hydra# said:


> If my memory is correct @Abingdonboy ,sometimes back said that ins vikrant will be hosting rafale m instead of mif29k. Is that true?


I've said that the Vikrant has a very high chance of being Home to Rafale Ms given the sheer Lack of interest the IN has shown in ordering more MiG-29Ks despite the Vikrant only being a few years away from sea trails. They'd have made their move by now unless they were waiting for something else (the IAF's decision on the Rafale for instance).

Reactions: Like Like:
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## migflug

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Towards a new Indian aircraft carrier catapults*
> Construction of sister ship Vikrant, first introduced as a carrier air defense, was abandoned in favor of a more ambitious project on a building designed to conduct power projection operations. Known Vishal, the third Indian aircraft carrier will be greater than his older and probably catobar type, that is to say with catapults and shutdown strands. To carry out this new project, New Delhi plans to cooperate with a foreign manufacturer who has expertise in aircraft carrier. T*his is where DCNS, the only company in the world to have studied a new design of aircraft carriers, DEAC, to meet those needs.*
> 
> 
> *DCNS offers designer*
> *Long 272 meters for a displacement of 52,000 tons over, DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier (DEAC) has everything to be the basis for discussions. It is a carrier of new generation compact, designed to enable the country who has achieve similar power projection operations to those that can lead the Navy with the Charles de Gaulle. To this end, the French engineers have increased the maximum aeronautical capabilities of the platform. This offers a flight deck area of 13,500 m² and two catapults of 90 meters allowing the implementation of heavier aircraft. The flow of materials and ammunition, as well as refueling and maneuvering aircraft on the flight deck and the hangar to have been optimized to facilitate flight operations and allow 75 day trips. With two lifts 36 tonnes, the DEAC incorporates oblique track with three strands stop and emergency barrier. It can implement some forty aircraft and is manned by 900 crew members, the capacity can go up to 1770 people with the staff of Air Group and Staff.
> 
> Capable of carrying 400 tons of ammunition and 8,400 tons of fuel, DEAC has a substantial autonomy or 8000 miles at 20 knots. Capable of reaching a top speed of 28 knots, it is available with different types of powered two rows of trees, including CODLAG (Combined diesel-electric and gas) or COGAG (Combined gas turbine and gas turbine). *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _DEAC (© DCNS)_
> 
> 
> 
> *Several countries consulted but big advantages for French*
> *Discussions have therefore begun to consider a Franco-Indian cooperation, DCNS hoping to capitalize on the good progress of Indian submarines of the Scorpene-type program, made in Technology Transfer in Mumbai and the first of which, the Kalvari, to be delivered in 2017.
> 
> Obviously, the Indians consult other country but France, with the tandem DEAC / Rafale, offers a safe and optimal solution to meet Indian needs. In terms of capacity, know-how and technology, Russians, Britons and Italians can not compete, due among other things they have no recent experience of aircraft carrier catapults. As for the Americans, their aircraft carriers are too big and expensive. France also has the advantage, not negligible, to give customers all the keys allowing them to use the equipment as they see fit, which is crucial in terms of freedom of action and sovereignty.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _(© HESJA)
> 
> http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/rafale-et-maintenant-la-marine-indienne
> 
> +++_
> 
> Check this out.. now read and recall what i have always said..
> 
> *ACC help by DCNS .. i used the term - will be a consultant..*
> *Rafale M for STOBAR*
> *Rafale M stobar ops no compromise in A2A with limited capability downgrade for A2G*
> *MII for IAF+IN - a huge fleet*
> Enjoy !!
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others




Does *DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier (DEAC) have emal catobar or steam catobar?
It would be an excellent decision to go for another vikrant class + ship of about 45k -50k tonnes with steam catobar with dcns help.
it should be able to carry about 40 planes(including heloes and rafale m).
Also DEAC and vikrant are not significantly different in size 272m vs 262m, 13500m2 vs 10000m2.
we can go for vishal post 2025 with emal @80k (no 65 please).*

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## Taygibay

Blue Marlin said:


> i have learned of an interesting development.
> india has signed for the technical and financial agreements for the jet but has *not* signed for the 50% offset agreement.
> thats the hardest part.



You have it backward : the contract *is* signed; the offset agreement *must* follow.
But it would be no problem anyway due to MII preparations. In essence, the parties
now have to find a repartition. There is a defined scale where having Indians screw
in parts ranks low or 1€ for 1 € of product, Indians setting up manufacture that stays
ranks higher like 1.5€ for 1€ of product and Indians learning to design & manufacture
sits highest with 2 or 3€ for 1€ of final product.
The last may seem like paying too much but the weapon might simply not have existed
without that help and what is that worth?

For 3+B€, India gets either that in local manufacture or 2/3 of that in production plants or
a third of that in knowledge to build say the AMCA.

And it's going to be 3.2/3.4 B because some of the sales article in the global deal are not
offsets forwarding , like say the integration sub-segment.



migflug said:


> Does *DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier (DEAC) have emal catobar or steam catobar?*



Steam is most likely. Nuke carriers can produce it aplenty
and you should read a bit on the E-MALS program history.


Great evening all, Tay.


P.S. StephenC was right to complain about the translation level; it
is pitiful. For future reference, chasse is hunt not hunting but more
importantly means fighter by opposition to transport in French.
Replace as wished hunt/hunting/chasse ... embarquée or not, with *Fighter Force*.​

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## Blue Marlin

Taygibay said:


> You have it backward : the contract *is* signed; the offset agreement *must* follow.
> But it would be no problem anyway due to MII preparations. In essence, the parties
> now have to find a repartition. There is a defined scale where having Indians screw
> in parts ranks low or 1€ for 1 € of product, Indians setting up manufacture that stays
> ranks higher like 1.5€ for 1€ of product and Indians leaning to design & manufacture
> sits highest with 2 or 3€ for 1€ of final product.
> The last may seem like paying too much but the weapon might simply not have existed
> without that help and what is that worth?
> 
> For 3+B€, India gets either that in local manufacture or 2/3 of that in production plants or
> a third of that in knowledge to build say the AMCA.
> 
> And it's going to be 3.2/3.4 B because some of the sales article in the global deal are not
> offsets forwarding , like say the integration sub-segment.


well im just saying what janes has said which quoted an iaf officail.
dassault dont want to guarantee the parts made in india which have a bad rep. so the offset would not have to be related to the rafale.

India signed an inter-governmental agreement (IGA) with France on 23 September in New Delhi for the purchase of 36 Dassault Rafale fighters in flyaway condition for EUR7.9 billion (USD8.82 billion).

Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian, signed the aircraft deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) 17 months after the procurement was announced in Paris in April 2015. The IGA includes the option for 18 supplementary fighters at the same price, taking a flat 3.5% inflation rate into account.

Officials said India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) would pay 15% of the sum in advance to French aircraft manufacturer Dassault, which will begin deliveries of the fighters in 36 months and complete them in 66 months.
_

The MoD, however, has yet to sign the final contract with Dassault, which is responsible for offsetting 50% of the overall contract value in India through co-operation with the country's military-industrial sector.


The offsets under negotiation are expected to be split 30:20 between domestic aeronautics programmes and the licenced manufacture of Rafale-related components.

Officials said the Rafale deal includes EUR3.4 billion for the platforms and EUR710 million for the weapons package, which comprises MBDA's MICA and Meteor air-to-air missiles with strike ranges of 70 km and 150 km, respectively, and the Storm Shadow/SCALP stand-off attack missile, which has a 250-300 km range.

India is to pay EUR1.7 billion for customising the 36 Rafales to meet 14 IAF requirements, including the integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays, as well as indigenously designed missiles and electronic warfare, datalink, and identification friend-or-foe systems.

The fighters will also be customised for SPICE bomb-guidance and range-extension kits, which the IAF plans to acquire from Israel's Rafael, IAF sources told IHS Jane's .

Aircraft spares, hangars, and two maintenance, repair, and overhaul facilities in eastern and northern India are set to cost EUR1.8 billion, while the performance-based logistics (PBL) deal for the fighters is priced at EUR353 million.

http://www.janes.com/article/64054/india-finally-signs-deal-with-france-for-36-rafale-fighters_

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## Taygibay

Sure but if you check back to the must part,
they will find an agreement, they agreed to!

_It's like playing chess with a clock. _​
So at worst by your view, it will be 100% help
with Kaveri, AESA tech and a local basis for
future SPECTRA applications for 1&1/2 B€.
I think India can live with that.

GN, Tay.

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## dadeechi

GuardianRED said:


> So the ultimate decision on who will be designing/consultant on the IAC2 wil be political one. Place you bets people, IS IT the Russian, Americans or the French ??!



Russia is out.

Read this thread

https://defence.pk/threads/india-ru...-on-indian-defence.450669/page-9#post-8735413



Blue Marlin said:


> i have leaned of an interesting development.
> india has signed for the technical and financial agreements for the jet but has *not* signed for the 50% offset agreement.
> thats the hardest part.



Now it would be the easiest part as India no longer has any leverage. India would just have to go with what France proposes and sign on the dotted line.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> Many of the participants from across the border are quite disrespectful. This leaves no room for discussion. I will be open to give opinion on any solicited question based on my view of the world.


All it takes is clicking the report button, and leaving it to the mod team; most of them are much gentler than I am though.

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## shree835

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> @PARIKRAMA I would like India and France to design and develop together AMCA - Futur French fighter. The only thing we miss is a market, you will be a big market and we can speed up availability of needed technologies for such a project. Win win situation.



Man... This is the thing I always wanted... AMCA development with INDIA and FRANCE....This will be amazing...

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## #hydra#

shree835 said:


> Man... This is the thing I always wanted... AMCA development with INDIA and FRANCE....This will be amazing...


Then it will be an another pakga type program,engine fusalage fine tuning for better aerodynamics will be of French origin for sure.

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## mike2000 is back

Blue Marlin said:


> well im just saying what janes has said which quoted an iaf officail.
> dassault dont want to guarantee the parts made in india which have a bad rep. so the offset would not have to be related to the rafale.
> 
> India signed an inter-governmental agreement (IGA) with France on 23 September in New Delhi for the purchase of 36 Dassault Rafale fighters in flyaway condition for EUR7.9 billion (USD8.82 billion).
> 
> Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian, signed the aircraft deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) 17 months after the procurement was announced in Paris in April 2015. The IGA includes the option for 18 supplementary fighters at the same price, taking a flat 3.5% inflation rate into account.
> 
> Officials said India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) would pay 15% of the sum in advance to French aircraft manufacturer Dassault, which will begin deliveries of the fighters in 36 months and complete them in 66 months.
> _
> 
> The MoD, however, has yet to sign the final contract with Dassault, which is responsible for offsetting 50% of the overall contract value in India through co-operation with the country's military-industrial sector.
> 
> 
> The offsets under negotiation are expected to be split 30:20 between domestic aeronautics programmes and the licenced manufacture of Rafale-related components.
> 
> Officials said the Rafale deal includes EUR3.4 billion for the platforms and EUR710 million for the weapons package, which comprises MBDA's MICA and Meteor air-to-air missiles with strike ranges of 70 km and 150 km, respectively, and the Storm Shadow/SCALP stand-off attack missile, which has a 250-300 km range.
> 
> India is to pay EUR1.7 billion for customising the 36 Rafales to meet 14 IAF requirements, including the integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays, as well as indigenously designed missiles and electronic warfare, datalink, and identification friend-or-foe systems.
> 
> The fighters will also be customised for SPICE bomb-guidance and range-extension kits, which the IAF plans to acquire from Israel's Rafael, IAF sources told IHS Jane's .
> 
> Aircraft spares, hangars, and two maintenance, repair, and overhaul facilities in eastern and northern India are set to cost EUR1.8 billion, while the performance-based logistics (PBL) deal for the fighters is priced at EUR353 million.
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/64054/india-finally-signs-deal-with-france-for-36-rafale-fighters_



Sorry guys , off topic, but I have always wondered, since MBDA is mainly a British(37. 5%)-French/German(37. 5%) Italian(25%) company. So when such sales happen , each country get a share of the revenue/cash? Since I suppose they all have an input in building these advance missiles. 









Abingdonboy said:


> Answered a few pages back in more detail but basically the Rafale is at least a decade away from getting integrated with the Brahmos, the SCALP is integrated today and will be with the IAF's Rafales from 2019.
> 
> 
> I've said that the Vikrant has a very high chance of being Home to Rafale Ms given the sheer Lack of interest the IN has shown in ordering more MiG-29Ks despite the Vikrant only being a few years away from sea trails. They'd have made their move by now unless they were waiting for something else (the IAF's decision on the Rafale for instance).


Seems you people are slowly moving away from Overeliance on Russian weapon systems. Which I think is good, since its always a good idea to diversify your sources. 
Is anything wrong with the Russian Mig-29ks though? I thought it's a fairly good naval fighter?

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## Taygibay

mike2000 is back said:


> Sorry guys , off topic, but I have always wondered, since MBDA is mainly a British(37. 5%)-French/German(37. 5%) Italian(25%) company. So when such sales happen , each country get a share of the revenue/cash?



That's why there are 100% units of each owner country, Mike.
The cash made by any of them selling goes through to MBDA.
It also simplifies exports greatly. Martin-Baker does that too.

The Airbus/EADS/Finmeccanica partners then take their cut at
the yearly revenues/ GA/ shares level.

G'dday mate, Tay.

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## mike2000 is back

Taygibay said:


> That's why there are 100% units of each owner country, Mike.
> The cash made by any of them selling goes through to MBDA.
> It also simplifies exports greatly. Martin-Baker does that too.
> 
> The Airbus/EADS/Finmeccanica partners then take their cut at
> the yearly revenues/ GA/ shares level.
> 
> G'dday mate, Tay.


Ah ok , I see. So we all get a share of the money then. Good one. Cooperation between equal partners is always better than going solo at times.  Plus it does simplify exports as you said. No wonder MBDA is now a world leader in missile sales around the world.



PARIKRAMA said:


> *Towards a new Indian aircraft carrier catapults*
> Construction of sister ship Vikrant, first introduced as a carrier air defense, was abandoned in favor of a more ambitious project on a building designed to conduct power projection operations. Known Vishal, the third Indian aircraft carrier will be greater than his older and probably catobar type, that is to say with catapults and shutdown strands. To carry out this new project, New Delhi plans to cooperate with a foreign manufacturer who has expertise in aircraft carrier. T*his is where DCNS, the only company in the world to have studied a new design of aircraft carriers, DEAC, to meet those needs.*
> 
> 
> *DCNS offers designer*
> *Long 272 meters for a displacement of 52,000 tons over, DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier (DEAC) has everything to be the basis for discussions. It is a carrier of new generation compact, designed to enable the country who has achieve similar power projection operations to those that can lead the Navy with the Charles de Gaulle. To this end, the French engineers have increased the maximum aeronautical capabilities of the platform. This offers a flight deck area of 13,500 m² and two catapults of 90 meters allowing the implementation of heavier aircraft. The flow of materials and ammunition, as well as refueling and maneuvering aircraft on the flight deck and the hangar to have been optimized to facilitate flight operations and allow 75 day trips. With two lifts 36 tonnes, the DEAC incorporates oblique track with three strands stop and emergency barrier. It can implement some forty aircraft and is manned by 900 crew members, the capacity can go up to 1770 people with the staff of Air Group and Staff.
> 
> Capable of carrying 400 tons of ammunition and 8,400 tons of fuel, DEAC has a substantial autonomy or 8000 miles at 20 knots. Capable of reaching a top speed of 28 knots, it is available with different types of powered two rows of trees, including CODLAG (Combined diesel-electric and gas) or COGAG (Combined gas turbine and gas turbine). *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _DEAC (© DCNS)_
> 
> 
> 
> *Several countries consulted but big advantages for French*
> *Discussions have therefore begun to consider a Franco-Indian cooperation, DCNS hoping to capitalize on the good progress of Indian submarines of the Scorpene-type program, made in Technology Transfer in Mumbai and the first of which, the Kalvari, to be delivered in 2017.
> 
> Obviously, the Indians consult other country but France, with the tandem DEAC / Rafale, offers a safe and optimal solution to meet Indian needs. In terms of capacity, know-how and technology, Russians, Britons and Italians can not compete, due among other things they have no recent experience of aircraft carrier catapults. As for the Americans, their aircraft carriers are too big and expensive. France also has the advantage, not negligible, to give customers all the keys allowing them to use the equipment as they see fit, which is crucial in terms of freedom of action and sovereignty.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _(© HESJA)
> 
> http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/rafale-et-maintenant-la-marine-indienne
> 
> +++_
> 
> Check this out.. now read and recall what i have always said..
> 
> *ACC help by DCNS .. i used the term - will be a consultant..*
> *Rafale M for STOBAR*
> *Rafale M stobar ops no compromise in A2A with limited capability downgrade for A2G*
> *MII for IAF+IN - a huge fleet*
> Enjoy !!
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others




Wow......France has a new carrier model? @Vergennes , you never told me that. 
We can share our carriers together in future. You people need for a new expensive one. Afterall, what are allies for? 

On a serious note though, jokes aside, it looks quite advanced with some new features. What's the estimated cost and is it exclusively for expot or France is looking to build one for its own navy?

Thinking about it, I believe we should offer a QE version for export(with some new features). I am sure it might also get some order/interest.

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## Echo_419

mike2000 is back said:


> Sorry guys , off topic, but I have always wondered, since MBDA is mainly a British(37. 5%)-French/German(37. 5%) Italian(25%) company. So when such sales happen , each country get a share of the revenue/cash? Since I suppose they all have an input in building these advance missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems you people are slowly moving away from Overeliance on Russian weapon systems. Which I think is good, since its always a good idea to diversify your sources.
> Is anything wrong with the Russian Mig-29ks though? I thought it's a fairly good naval fighter?



Rafael is at least a gen ahead of Mig-29K

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## Abingdonboy

mike2000 is back said:


> Sorry guys , off topic, but I have always wondered, since MBDA is mainly a British(37. 5%)-French/German(37. 5%) Italian(25%) company. So when such sales happen , each country get a share of the revenue/cash? Since I suppose they all have an input in building these advance missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems you people are slowly moving away from Overeliance on Russian weapon systems. Which I think is good, since its always a good idea to diversify your sources.
> Is anything wrong with the Russian Mig-29ks though? I thought it's a fairly good naval fighter?


There's nothing wrong with the MiG-29K, the Rafale M is simply superior.

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## [Bregs]

Abingdonboy said:


> There's nothing wrong with the MiG-29K, the Rafale M is simply superior.



well bro the biggest advantage rafale scores over MIG 29K might be the availability rate of 75% or above. so thats a big plus apart from better avionics specially AESA radar

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## Abingdonboy

[Bregs] said:


> well bro the biggest advantage rafale scores over MIG 29K might be the availability rate of 75% or above. so thats a big plus apart from better avionics specially AESA radar


In pretty much every area the Rafale is a step above the MiG-29K. This is not to diminish the MiG-29K's potency, it is the third most advanced carrier fighter in service today and easily one of the most potent jets region that could take on the frontline jets of most nation's airforces.

And yes, the ease of maintaining the Rafale when at sea is a HUGE plus for a carrier navy.



Blue Marlin said:


> well im just saying what janes has said which quoted an iaf officail.
> dassault dont want to guarantee the parts made in india which have a bad rep. so the offset would not have to be related to the rafale.
> 
> India signed an inter-governmental agreement (IGA) with France on 23 September in New Delhi for the purchase of 36 Dassault Rafale fighters in flyaway condition for EUR7.9 billion (USD8.82 billion).
> 
> Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian, signed the aircraft deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) 17 months after the procurement was announced in Paris in April 2015. The IGA includes the option for 18 supplementary fighters at the same price, taking a flat 3.5% inflation rate into account.
> 
> Officials said India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) would pay 15% of the sum in advance to French aircraft manufacturer Dassault, which will begin deliveries of the fighters in 36 months and complete them in 66 months.
> _
> 
> The MoD, however, has yet to sign the final contract with Dassault, which is responsible for offsetting 50% of the overall contract value in India through co-operation with the country's military-industrial sector.
> 
> 
> The offsets under negotiation are expected to be split 30:20 between domestic aeronautics programmes and the licenced manufacture of Rafale-related components.
> 
> Officials said the Rafale deal includes EUR3.4 billion for the platforms and EUR710 million for the weapons package, which comprises MBDA's MICA and Meteor air-to-air missiles with strike ranges of 70 km and 150 km, respectively, and the Storm Shadow/SCALP stand-off attack missile, which has a 250-300 km range.
> 
> India is to pay EUR1.7 billion for customising the 36 Rafales to meet 14 IAF requirements, including the integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays, as well as indigenously designed missiles and electronic warfare, datalink, and identification friend-or-foe systems.
> 
> The fighters will also be customised for SPICE bomb-guidance and range-extension kits, which the IAF plans to acquire from Israel's Rafael, IAF sources told IHS Jane's .
> 
> Aircraft spares, hangars, and two maintenance, repair, and overhaul facilities in eastern and northern India are set to cost EUR1.8 billion, while the performance-based logistics (PBL) deal for the fighters is priced at EUR353 million.
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/64054/india-finally-signs-deal-with-france-for-36-rafale-fighters_


@Taygibay @PARIKRAMA @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil 

A further expansion of an already very diverse performance envelope. 
The Indian Rafale with all of these customisations will surely help (maybe not so much in the Mid East  ) the Rafale's export potential.

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## randomradio

mike2000 is back said:


> Sorry guys , off topic, but I have always wondered, since MBDA is mainly a British(37. 5%)-French/German(37. 5%) Italian(25%) company. So when such sales happen , each country get a share of the revenue/cash? Since I suppose they all have an input in building these advance missiles.



Profits are shared, production is not.

For example, 80% of the production will go into Italian industries for the Kuwaiti Typhoons.



> Seems you people are slowly moving away from Overeliance on Russian weapon systems. Which I think is good, since its always a good idea to diversify your sources.
> Is anything wrong with the Russian Mig-29ks though? I thought it's a fairly good naval fighter?



We have always done that. We've had western jets and Soviet jets in significant numbers. We've had French Mysteres, Ouragans and Mirage-2000s, British Harriers, Hunters and Gnats, Anglo-French Jaguars etc. So we are doing nothing special here.

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## Vergennes

mike2000 is back said:


> Wow......France has a new carrier model? @Vergennes , you never told me that.
> We can share our carriers together in future. You people need for a new expensive one. Afterall, what are allies for?
> 
> On a serious note though, jokes aside, it looks quite advanced with some new features. What's the estimated cost and is it exclusively for expot or France is looking to build one for its own navy?
> 
> Thinking about it, I believe we should offer a QE version for export(with some new features). I am sure it might also get some order/interest.



If I remember,we were working with the brits on the Queen Elizabeth project,and were looking at a CATOBAR and nuclear powered version,but was delayed by Sarkozy's government because of budgetary constraints and finally scrapped by this government.
-
The recent multiplication of operations,the need to project power and the major retrofit of the Charles de Gaulle in 2017,leaving us with no carrier strike group projection,raised the question for another aircraft carrier,for the need to have one permanently at sea when the other is undergoing major retrofit or isn't available. 
It would be interesting to follow what are the candidates' proposals on defence and if they are going to launch studies and why not the construction of a second aircraft carrier.

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## mike2000 is back

Vergennes said:


> If I remember,we were working with the brits on the Queen Elizabeth project,and were looking at a CATOBAR and nuclear powered version,but was delayed by Sarkozy's government because of budgetary constraints and finally scrapped by this government.
> -
> The recent multiplication of operations,the need to project power and the major retrofit of the Charles de Gaulle in 2017,leaving us with no carrier strike group projection,raised the question for another aircraft carrier,for the need to have one permanently at sea when the other is undergoing major retrofit or isn't available.
> It would be interesting to follow what are the candidates' proposals on defence and if they are going to launch studies and why not the construction of a second aircraft carrier.


European powers and budget constraints excuses.

How is it that Britain and France who have about 3 times Russia's GDP and far higher living standards for example still can't spend on their military anywhere near Russia?

It's because of too much public scrutiny and need for spending on social programs/welfare/healthcare etc. These people don't know that a country also has to maintain a credible deterrent and a country should never neglect it defence/Interests.

I believe if there's a will we can build more than 2 carriers. It's more than affordable for Britain and France. Reasons for not doing so is more political(internal), bureaucracy, and lack of long-term strategic thinking. We could very well offer a lighter version with new features like catabor, nuclear powered. Covers cost. However, politicians/public don't think that way very often. .

If France had used budget reasons citing huge investments/costs required for not building for example it's barracuda subs or Rafale fighter jets etc, think you will be reaping the fruits of all the orders you are getting today?
Same for Britain with say BAE hawks, frigates, Howitzers etc

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## Blue Marlin

mike2000 is back said:


> Sorry guys , off topic, but I have always wondered, since MBDA is mainly a British(37. 5%)-French/German(37. 5%) Italian(25%) company. So when such sales happen , each country get a share of the revenue/cash? Since I suppose they all have an input in building these advance missiles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems you people are slowly moving away from Overeliance on Russian weapon systems. Which I think is good, since its always a good idea to diversify your sources.
> Is anything wrong with the Russian Mig-29ks though? I thought it's a fairly good naval fighter?



yes mbda is an european company owned by several companies from differant countries.

but certain missiles are made for certain countries . like the mica for france, and the asraam for the uk.
the germans are the worst. there like the fat greedy kid. when they wanted to develop the iris-t, they went to a german company entirely and out sourced the parts as a risk reducing measure to non traditional partners such as norway and canada and sweden, even greece!

also who has a 39% stake in the meteor missile?........thats right us lot so technically we have a say in the sale of the meteor. and our stake is larger than the next two largest stake holders combined

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## Vergennes

@mike2000 is back 

Maybe because Russia didn't have high deficits,a skyrocketing debt,very high public spendings,weak growth,other priorities and so on.

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## Blue Marlin

Abingdonboy said:


> A further expansion of an already very diverse performance envelope.
> The Indian Rafale with all of these customisations will surely help (maybe not so much in the Mid East  ) the Rafale's export potential.


how is this relevant to my original post? did i miss something?
the only arab country thats in the market for fighter jets is the uae and yes they have their eyes on the rafale but are holding of til after the french elections and thats some time away. and do note there not exactly begging to buy it. they wanted the m88 with more thrust from 7.5 tonnes to 9 tonnes.
thats a big problem, so much so in the commercial field emirates canceled 70 a350's because they would not promise the thrust range would be to their need. and Boeing tailored the 77x to be more powerful to suit their needs. mind you the obama administration is clearing sales of f18 to kuwait, f15's to qatar and f16's to the uae as well as upgrades.

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## BON PLAN

Agreed, It is much better than PLAAF's Python variants or PAF's AIM-120C AMRAAM.

[/QUOTE]

Python is a short range missile. Isn't the Derby ?



#hydra# said:


> Why we need scalp,the proposed air launched brahmos and brahmos mini have also same range. How scalp can outperform brahmos?
> @Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil


a question of accuracy.
And a broach warhed, very very impressive against hardened bunker.

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## mike2000 is back

Blue Marlin said:


> yes mbda is an european company owned by several companies from differant countries.
> 
> but certain missiles are made for certain countries . like the mica for france, and the asraam for the uk.
> the germans are the worst. there like the fat greedy kid. when they wanted to develop the iris-t, they went to a german company entirely and out sourced the parts as a risk reducing measure to non traditional partners such as norway and canada and sweden, even greece!
> 
> also who has a 39% stake in the meteor missile?........thats right us lot so technically we have a say in the sale of the meteor. and our stake is larger than the next two largest stake holders combined


Obviously, I'm aware. Once you have Germany in any joint project, then brace yourself for trouble. They did the same thing with the Typhoon after we brought them in.they threatened several times to leave during its development and later reduce their orders by still wanted to have the same share like Britain. How is that fair? We only have in to their demands because we had weak negotiators back then, and we didn't want the project to stall/get into trouble or be cancelled.
Even today most of the upgrades is carried out almost solely by Britain, and we are the ones pushing it forward in every field. The Germans are content with the tranche 2 they have and don't want to be bothered investing/ordering any tranche 3 . I really think we should have gone solo on the Typhoon(after France pulled out). Inviting Germany was the worse mistake we ever made(even Italy or Spain are far better).

Anyway , I'm sure we have learn our lessons. They are the greedy fat kid like you said. We should avoid them in any future projects like a pest.



Vergennes said:


> @mike2000 is back
> 
> Maybe because Russia didn't have high deficits,a skyrocketing debt,very high public spendings,weak growth,other priorities and so on.


Not really. Russia's economy has been in a terrible state this past years. In fact it's economy contracted almost 3.7% last year, barely grew the year before that(0.5%) and this year it's expected to contract by about 1%. They are also slashing their pubic expenditure due to financial constraints(low oil prices on which they depend).

. https://www.ft.com/content/e16a0118-b940-11e5-b151-8e15c9a029fb

Despite all this , they have increase their defence budget. Our economy by contrast has been growing over 2.1% on average this past years. Yet our defence budget hasn't changed/increased significantly. So go figure.

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> Profits are shared, production is not.
> 
> For example, 80% of the production will go into Italian industries for the Kuwaiti Typhoons.


Are you sure for production? I'm not.
The Typhoons are made by Eurofighter Gmbh. This consortium is hold by GB and Deutchland (33% each), Italy (21%) and Spain (13%). I think the work share are in due proportion of stakes, and doesn't change depending to customer.

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## BON PLAN

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Towards a new Indian aircraft carrier catapults*
> Construction of sister ship Vikrant, first introduced as a carrier air defense, was abandoned in favor of a more ambitious project on a building designed to conduct power projection operations. Known Vishal, the third Indian aircraft carrier will be greater than his older and probably catobar type, that is to say with catapults and shutdown strands. To carry out this new project, New Delhi plans to cooperate with a foreign manufacturer who has expertise in aircraft carrier. T*his is where DCNS, the only company in the world to have studied a new design of aircraft carriers, DEAC, to meet those needs.*
> 
> 
> *DCNS offers designer*
> *Long 272 meters for a displacement of 52,000 tons over, DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier (DEAC) has everything to be the basis for discussions. It is a carrier of new generation compact, designed to enable the country who has achieve similar power projection operations to those that can lead the Navy with the Charles de Gaulle. To this end, the French engineers have increased the maximum aeronautical capabilities of the platform. This offers a flight deck area of 13,500 m² and two catapults of 90 meters allowing the implementation of heavier aircraft. The flow of materials and ammunition, as well as refueling and maneuvering aircraft on the flight deck and the hangar to have been optimized to facilitate flight operations and allow 75 day trips. With two lifts 36 tonnes, the DEAC incorporates oblique track with three strands stop and emergency barrier. It can implement some forty aircraft and is manned by 900 crew members, the capacity can go up to 1770 people with the staff of Air Group and Staff.
> 
> Capable of carrying 400 tons of ammunition and 8,400 tons of fuel, DEAC has a substantial autonomy or 8000 miles at 20 knots. Capable of reaching a top speed of 28 knots, it is available with different types of powered two rows of trees, including CODLAG (Combined diesel-electric and gas) or COGAG (Combined gas turbine and gas turbine). *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _DEAC (© DCNS)_
> 
> 
> 
> *Several countries consulted but big advantages for French*
> *Discussions have therefore begun to consider a Franco-Indian cooperation, DCNS hoping to capitalize on the good progress of Indian submarines of the Scorpene-type program, made in Technology Transfer in Mumbai and the first of which, the Kalvari, to be delivered in 2017.
> 
> Obviously, the Indians consult other country but France, with the tandem DEAC / Rafale, offers a safe and optimal solution to meet Indian needs. In terms of capacity, know-how and technology, Russians, Britons and Italians can not compete, due among other things they have no recent experience of aircraft carrier catapults. As for the Americans, their aircraft carriers are too big and expensive. France also has the advantage, not negligible, to give customers all the keys allowing them to use the equipment as they see fit, which is crucial in terms of freedom of action and sovereignty.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _(© HESJA)
> 
> http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/rafale-et-maintenant-la-marine-indienne
> 
> +++_
> 
> Check this out.. now read and recall what i have always said..
> 
> *ACC help by DCNS .. i used the term - will be a consultant..*
> *Rafale M for STOBAR*
> *Rafale M stobar ops no compromise in A2A with limited capability downgrade for A2G*
> *MII for IAF+IN - a huge fleet*
> Enjoy !!
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others



*
CHINA studies a CATOBAR version of J15 Flying Shark ....
*






For these tests, China uses two land tracks with catapults. 
According to several sources, one uses a steam catapult while the other would have an electromagnetic system (EMALS)...

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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> Are you sure for production? I'm not.
> The Typhoons are made by Eurofighter Gmbh. This consortium is hold by GB and Deutchland (33% each), Italy (21%) and Spain (13%). I think the work share are in due proportion of stakes, and doesn't change depending to customer.



The parts are made everywhere, but the final integration and assembly will happen in Italy. So a larger portion of the work will go to Italy, while other countries will get subcontracted work.


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## Blue Marlin

mike2000 is back said:


> Obviously, I'm aware. Once you have Germany in any joint project, then brace yourself for trouble. They did the same thing with the Typhoon after we brought them in.they threatened several times to leave during its development and later reduce their orders by still wanted to have the same share like Britain. How is that fair? We only have in to their demands because we had weak negotiators back then, and we didn't want the project to stall/get into trouble or be cancelled.
> Even today most of the upgrades is carried out almost solely by Britain, and we are the ones pushing it forward in every field. The Germans are content with the tranche 2 they have and don't want to be bothered investing/ordering any tranche 3 . I really think we should have gone solo on the Typhoon(after France pulled out). Inviting Germany was the worse mistake we ever made(even Italy or Spain are far better).
> 
> Anyway , I'm sure we have learn our lessons. They are the greedy fat kid like you said. We should avoid them in any future projects like a pest.
> 
> 
> .


indeed. do you want so potentially bad news, its gonna happen again (possibly). 
as you know we have our taranis ucav program and the french have signed a deal to kind of merge our program with their neuron program. sounds good right? but the neuron program already has other eu partners. spain, sweden, italy and greece of all countries. the germans are not involved in the project. so its very likely this can be a european joint project minus the germans. i think they (germany) are going for the euro hawk but thats not a ucav but more for installing sensors on for communications and surveillance.
ok so no germans so we have the:
spanairds,
italians
swedes
and the greeks
i think greeks will drop out due to money problems. spain is a issue as well as they wont buy alot of them and are financially and economically weak. italy has more promise as they have a large aerospace industry and are doing a bit better and need them (spain) due to its location on the med. the swedes just want to get their hands in a big project and remain relevant after the mess up they did on the tfx and their eventual failure for the gripen in india and potentially brazil.

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## [Bregs]

*Rafale jets deal will do little to arrest the free fall in IAF’s strength*
*





Initial euphoria over the culmination of a Euro 7.8-billion agreement for 36 Rafale fighter planes has given way to accusations that India has inked an expensive deal that falls short of meeting the expectations of its air force.

Back in 2001, the Indian Air Force (IAF) sought at least 126 jets to replace ageing Soviet-era planes. Today, as a political dog fight unfolds over Rafale jets, the Congress says the 36 fighters are not enough to check the erosion of the IAF’s strength.

The party has warned of a looming crisis in the IAF, whose fighter fleet has shrunk to 33 squadrons compared to a desirable 45 to respond to a joint threat from China and Pakistan.

Strategic affairs expert Air Vice Marshal Kapil Kak (retd) says the IAF needs to induct up to 90 more Rafale-like jets on an emergency basis. “There’s no turning away from that reality,” he adds.
Shortage of fighter planes is not the only concern.

Read | India needs more than Rafale to match China: Defence experts

Gaps in mid-air refuelling capability, shortage of advanced warning platforms, high number of jets under maintenance and upgrading air defence systems are some other challenges lying ahead of the world’s fourth largest air force.

IAF spokesperson Wing Commander Anupam Banerjee says the air force has plans in place to effectively utilise the available aerial platforms and weapon systems. “Any shortcoming will be made good in a short period of time to further enhance our capability,” he points out, adding all international air forces had a mix of modern and ageing aircraft.







Then, there are issues with the IAF’s ageing utility helicopter fleet. The IAF finds itself stretched due to shortage of heavy-lift and attack choppers — and its transport capability needs to be enhanced swiftly.

“India’s neighbours, especially China, have pressed the accelerator on modernising their air forces,” warns former IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Major. “The capability gaps will keep increasing if we don’t hasten things up.”

A $2-billion deal to buy midair refuellers to expand the IAF’s strategic reach is stuck, as India and Airbus have not agreed on the price. “The tankers are required urgently if we have to stay prepared to counter China in the eastern sector,” a senior IAF officer points out on the condition of anonymity. “The deal has dragged on for over seven years.”

The air force needs to ramp up its airborne surveillance capability to detect enemy planes and missiles. It has only three AWACS (airborne warning and control system) aircraft, though the requirement is higher.

Read | Rafale triggers political dogfight, Cong wants contract to be made public

The numbers are not enough if China and Pakistan pose a collusive threat. “The capability will play a significant role in terms of covering the eastern and western fronts during offensive operations,” says former IAF vice chief Air Marshal KK Nohwar (retd).

The IAF will induct three Brazilian Embraer airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) system aircraft in 2017, six years behind schedule. The AWACS is a more robust monitoring system that provides 360-degree coverage, compared to AEW&C’s 270-degree capability. The AWACS also has superior range and endurance.
Besides shortage of combat squadrons, another glaring hole in the IAF’s capability is low availability of fighter planes to carry out missions at any given moment or serviceability in military parlance.
India has a fleet of nearly 200 Su-30 fighter jets, but just half of them are ready to undertake missions at all times. “Barring the Mirage 2000, the IAF is struggling to improve the availability of most fighters,” says Kak.

IAF officials say aircraft availability should be around 75% during peacetime.

Fixing gaps in air defence is crucial to stave off threats from missiles and fighters. Major says deploying the Russian S 400 Triumf air defence system and the Israeli SPYDER low-level quick reaction missiles should be one of the top priorities for the IAF. India is yet to hammer out a plan to collaborate with a foreign partner to co-develop and co-produce a multirole transport aircraft (MTA) after an Indo-Russian project failed to take off.

The IAF is betting on US-origin Chinook heavy-lift helicopters to fill another capability gap, but deliveries will begin only in 2019. It currently operates a solitary Soviet-origin Mi-26 chopper to deliver payloads to high altitudes. India’s new attack helicopters — the AH-64E Apache Longbow — will also come after three years.
The IAF is hoping for quick execution of a $2-billion project to build medium-lift transport planes in India to replace the ageing Avro fleet.

Pilot training has been hit by a lack of intermediate jet trainers. The project was sanctioned in July 1999 but it has still not materialised, forcing the IAF to use old Kiran Mk-II aircraft for training.
The Pathankot and Uri attacks have exposed the vulnerability of military bases. Experts say India should fast-track the security upgrade at sensitive airbases with smart fences, vibration detection systems, mini-drones, thermal cameras and night vision equipment.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...-s-strength/story-OQKlTiQqqPlgaY4c4GQM5M.html*

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## Ankit Kumar 002

royalharris said:


> You indians always enjoy focus on china, on the contrary, china military development never focus on india.
> Rafael deal is very hot in india-parkistan. but, seldom chinese know about it, there is also no any news on the main media about this deal in china.
> The whole asia should keep in peace, in the last centrury, asia suffer a loss.just recently years, people begin to live a better life.
> This world is a west-dominated world，the inbalance still there, just change a different form.some people just can't realize.
> India is a large country in subcontinent, make peace with your neighbours, especiallly parkistan.don't bully our little brother.



PRC today is our one of the biggest partners when coming to infrastructure and power sector. We hope the collaboration grows. 

Another joint exercise is planned this year and we hope this will help in keeping India China relations calm so that business grows. 

We should keep it like this as the moment , trade , commerce and investments separate from politics. It has benefited both sides. 


However about the security of India , we will of course take steps to secure ourselves , if this mean defending ourselves offensively , so it be.

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## Agent_47

Source : http://www.checksix-forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=279&t=174726&start=2025



royalharris said:


> You indians always enjoy focus on china, on the contrary, china military development never focus on india.
> Rafael deal is very hot in india-parkistan. but, seldom chinese know about it, there is also no any news on the main media about this deal in china.
> The whole asia should keep in peace, in the last centrury, asia suffer a loss.just recently years, people begin to live a better life.
> This world is a west-dominated world，the inbalance still there, just change a different form.some people just can't realize.
> India is a large country in subcontinent, make peace with your neighbours, especiallly parkistan.don't bully our little brother.


Not a single bullet fired between China and india in last 50 years. But you can't deny the fact that china armed pakistan with nuclear missiles, which negates your whole 'asia should keep in peace' in rhetoric. Pakistan is using China as an insurance policy when China uses it as a low cost option to keep in check India. You should make peace with 18 countries neighboring before you tutor us. (+ stop Human right violations against our Muslim brothers in xinjiang)

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## PARIKRAMA

Agent_47 said:


> Source : http://www.checksix-forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=279&t=174726&start=2025
> 
> 
> Not a single bullet fired between China and india in last 50 years. But you can't deny the fact that china armed pakistan with nuclear missiles, which negates your whole 'asia should keep in peace' in rhetoric. Pakistan is using China as an insurance policy when China uses it as a low cost option to keep in check India. You should make peace with 18 countries neighboring before you tutor us. (+ stop Human right violations against our Muslim brothers in xinjiang)



Some more things which should be there is as follows




Very important National permit 





Of course to showcase its low RCS





Very important for aircraft tailing/chasing raffys

and...




That one is very essential
Meaning in yellow portion
*one who has kept an evil eye on me may your face be turned black (black face implying shamed/insulted)*
and the green portion - *heart beat*

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## [Bregs]

PARIKRAMA said:


> Some more things which should be there is as follows
> View attachment 338835
> 
> Very important National permit
> 
> View attachment 338836
> 
> Of course to showcase its low RCS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very important for aircraft tailing/chasing raffys
> 
> and...
> View attachment 338837
> 
> That one is very essential
> Meaning in yellow portion
> *one who has kept an evil eye on me may your face be turned black (black face implying shamed/insulted)*
> and the green portion - *heart beat*




Lol well said

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## RangeHunter

PARIKRAMA said:


> Some more things which should be there is as follows
> View attachment 338835
> 
> Very important National permit
> 
> View attachment 338836
> 
> Of course to showcase its low RCS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very important for aircraft tailing/chasing raffys
> 
> and...
> View attachment 338837
> 
> That one is very essential
> Meaning in yellow portion
> *one who has kept an evil eye on me may your face be turned black (black face implying shamed/insulted)*
> and the green portion - *heart beat*


Na, I bet we should get the international permit just in case things get out of hand

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## GurudevSingh

NEW DELHI—India’s federal cabinet on Wednesday approved two deals worth about $3 billion that will allow a consortium of Indian state-run oil companies to buy stakes in two Russian oil fields, a top government official said.

A consortium of Oil India Ltd., Indian Oil Corp. Ltd. and Bharat Petro Resources Ltd., which is the exploration and production arm ofBharat Petroleum Corporation Ltd., had in March agreed with Russian state-run oil company Rosneft to buy a 23.9% stake in its Vankor oil fields. The deal, worth about $2.02 billion, was approved by the cabinet Wednesday, said an official, who didn’t wish to be named.

The cabinet also approved another deal worth $1.24 billion reached by the three companies earlier this year to acquire a 29.9% stake in Russia’s Taas-Yuryakh oil field, the official added.

The deals reflect India’s growing interest in snapping up cheap offshore assets amid the tumble in global crude-oil prices.

India is the world’s third-largest energy consumer and imports roughly 75% of its oil. Oil prices fell to nearly 12-year lows this year under pressure from a deepening supply glut and signs of economic weakness in China, the world’s second-biggest oil consumer.

With lower crude prices making investments in energy development abroad more affordable, India has asked state enterprises to look for deals with resource-rich nations such as Russia, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and, now that international sanctions have lifted, Iran.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/india-approves-3-billion-stake-purchase-in-russian-oil-fields-1475054404

So after all is done between west and India, now its time to look out for Russia. Its time to put Russia back in fold just before the visit of Putin. 
I wonder how it is going to impact Pakistan post visit of Putin in coming days.

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## ranadd

Oh wait what about the Pakistan-Russia-China nexus?. Thought we are still crying that Russia is not playing with us in the playground.

/s

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## X-2.

ranadd said:


> Oh wait what about the Pakistan-Russia-China nexus?. Thought we are still crying that Russia is not playing with us in the playground.
> 
> /s


Lol
Russia is gona milk harder before last jerk


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## ranadd

X-2. said:


> Lol
> Russia is gona milk harder before last jerk



Please do not post such vulgar sentences in a public forum. Reduces you to the sewage.

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## X-2.

ranadd said:


> Please do not post such vulgar sentences in a public forum. Reduces you to the sewage.


Read positive pls it's not vulgar at all
It's tt term


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## punit

X-2. said:


> Lol
> Russia is gona milk harder before last jerk


u seemed to have pretty much experience of being at the receiving end as a country !! oh wait : uncle sam , saudi and god knows how many more !

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## X-2.

punit said:


> u seemed to have pretty much experience of being at the receiving end as a country !! oh wait : uncle sam , saudi and god knows how many more !


Google who received more funds from Americans India or Pakistan


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## raj76

X-2. said:


> Google who received more funds from Americans India or Pakistan


may be india but not indian government, now u google which government recieved more funds or khairat indian or pakistan and btw dont underestimate hindu baniya when he makes business deal lol


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## PARIKRAMA

Global Times, China article on Indian Rafale acquisition

++

*Asia arms imports on the rise as India buys new jets*
By Yang Sheng Source:Global Times Published: 2016/9/30 0:38:39
_Neighboring countries willing to purchase security from West_

Increased arms imports into the Asian region are primarily due to the unstable security environment in the Middle East and concerns from China's neighbors over its rise, analysts said, emphasizing this makes the region more volatile. 

Last week, India signed an inter-governmental agreement with France in New Delhi for the purchase of 36 Rafale jet fighters in flyaway condition for $8.82 billion from French company Dassault. 

*The jets can carry tactical nuclear warheads, and this means India's nuclear deterrence capability will be greatly improved, Shenzhen Television reported. *

*"India also wants to purchase the Rafale technology from Dassault but France refused, meaning France has no intention to help India promote its military industrial system," said Zhao Gancheng, director of South Asia Studies at the Shanghai Institutes for International Studies.*

According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), India is the largest arms importer in the world. India is rapidly expanding its military capabilities, spending an estimated $100 billion on new defense systems since Narendra Modi became prime minister in 2014.

Many other countries with an advanced military industry are also competing for India's market, such as Russia, the US and Israel, SIPRI said.

*Zhao said before this deal with France, India was also considering the US-made F-16. "India picked French-made jet fighters because they are cheaper and have a nuclear deterrence capability."*

Including India, SIPRI's list of the top 10 arms importers 2011-2015 has nine Asian or Asia-Pacific countries. 

Meanwhile, among the top 10 arms exporters, eight were European countries. Most of the top arms sellers are NATO members, except China and Russia. 

SIPRI says the US is the biggest arms exporter, with 33 percent of global share, and it is the biggest arms seller to most importers in Asia, such as Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates (UAE), Turkey, and South Korea. 

*Song Zhongping, a Beijing-based military expert, told the Global Times on Thursday that NATO members have a near monopoly on the global arms market, due to their advanced military technology and strong manufacturing capabilities, especially the US.

"The majority of Asian states don't have a comprehensive and developed military industry, but they have good economic bases, so they are willing to purchase 'security' from the West rather than spending more time and money to develop their own systems," Song said. 

"There are two objective factors boosting arms deals in Asia: the chaos in the Middle East and fears over China's rise," he noted.*

Hyping 'China Threat'

*According to the Shenzhen Television report, India will deploy its new French-made fighters in the disputed areas bordering Pakistan and China. *

Many of China's neighbors are also on the list of top 10 importers, such as Vietnam, South Korea and India. 

"Due to the South China Sea dispute and the increasing power of the Chinese navy, countries like Vietnam and the Philippines are very concerned, but the US is not helping China solve the problem peacefully," Song said.

"The US government and media are hyping the 'China Threat Theory,' trying to convince countries in Asia that China is on the offensive," he said.

Hua Liming, former Chinese Ambassador to Iran (1991-1995) and the UAE (1995-1998), told the Global Times on Thursday that to a degree, the West doesn't want to totally solve the Middle East problem, because limited and low-intensity conflicts can bring benefits to arms exporters.

"When I was ambassador to the UAE, I saw leaders from the UK and France frequently coming to peddle their arms," Hua said.

"Both the US and Russia are tired of the ongoing Syrian civil war but can't make it stop," Hua said, adding that the influence from arms companies is partly to blame. 

This is also bad for the US and Russia, because their war expenditure will keep increasing, Song noted.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1009300.shtml

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## BON PLAN

An interesting thing read in the french news paper "Les Echos" some days ago :

1) When Modi came in Paris last year, He and Hollande didn't speak of Rafale during the private meeting. It was very disapointing for JY Le Drian and Hollande himself. It was only in front of the journalists that Modi express the need for 36 planes off the shelf (and if you see the figure of Hollande, we understand better now why).

2) The deal was to be inked during Hollande's visit in India at the beginning of 2016, but some last bargaining blocked it. Four months after that, JY Le Drian wrote to his counterpart to explain bargaining was over : The french team had made their last and final offer. It was to take or to leave.

The rest is well known yet.

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## ni8mare

BON PLAN said:


> (and if you see the figure of Hollande, we understand better now why).


elaborate please ..not able to catch up what you meant


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## PARIKRAMA

i like what i see here..

Hope i see a same pic with our carriers as well...

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @GuardianRED @Taygibay

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Any weapon like long range glide bomb tested or offered on Rafale ?


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## anant_s

PARIKRAMA said:


> i like what i see here..
> 
> Hope i see a same pic with our carriers as well...
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @GuardianRED @Taygibay


Charles De Gaulle?

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## PARIKRAMA

anant_s said:


> Charles De Gaulle?


Yes...

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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> An interesting thing read in the french news paper "Les Echos" some days ago :
> 
> 1) When Modi came in Paris last year, He and Hollande didn't speak of Rafale during the private meeting. It was very disapointing for JY Le Drian and Hollande himself. It was only in front of the journalists that Modi express the need for 36 planes off the shelf (and if you see the figure of Hollande, we understand better now why).



Naturally. It became Parrikar's project.



> 2) The deal was to be inked during Hollande's visit in India at the beginning of 2016, but some last bargaining blocked it. Four months after that, JY Le Drian wrote to his counterpart to explain bargaining was over : The french team had made their last and final offer. It was to take or to leave.
> 
> The rest is well known yet.



Not just negotiations, offsets delay also had a part to play.

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## BON PLAN

ni8mare said:


> elaborate please ..not able to catch up what you meant


Hollande seemed very surprised hearing this news from Indian PM.



Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Any weapon like long range glide bomb tested or offered on Rafale ?


YES ! Hammer bomb (or Hammer missile.... as it's a mix between a free fall guided bomb and a missile)











PARIKRAMA said:


> i like what i see here..
> 
> Hope i see a same pic with our carriers as well...
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @GuardianRED @Taygibay


I've heard this morning on radio that all the 24 Rafale abord were intended to fly this day against IS.
And Yes, it's the Charles de Gaulle carrier.

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## Taygibay

PARIKRAMA said:


> The jets can carry tactical nuclear warheads, and this means India's nuclear deterrence capability will be greatly improved, Shenzhen Television reported.



No it won't, at least not without a vector. Since ASMP wasn't sold and Brahmos-NG
having started development in May of this year only is a few years to fruition, the
above statement is a fallacy. Fr Raffys can nuke, Indian Rafales won't ... for now.



PARIKRAMA said:


> "India also wants to purchase the Rafale technology from Dassault but France refused, meaning France has no intention to help India promote its military industrial system," said Zhao Gancheng, director of South Asia Studies at the Shanghai Institutes for International Studies.



I'd like something more than this gentlemen's title to enable me to follow his point.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Many other countries with an advanced military industry are also competing for India's market, such as Russia, the US and Israel, SIPRI said.



LOL If it wasn't for diplomatic reasons, the same would apply for China ...
and we'll soon see when they start selling top mil ware to other nations
exactly how discriminatory they shall be!



PARIKRAMA said:


> Zhao said before this deal with France, India was also considering the US-made F-16. "India picked French-made jet fighters because they are *cheaper* and have a nuclear deterrence capability."



  Whut?      ETC.

_By the way, F-16s can carry the B-61 so moot point._
​


PARIKRAMA said:


> "The majority of Asian states don't have a comprehensive and developed military industry, but they have ...



Sure, Indonesia comes to mind, SoKo, heck, Japan!
Incrazyble! 



PARIKRAMA said:


> Song Zhongping, a Beijing-based military expert, told the Global Times on Thursday that NATO members have a near monopoly on the global arms market, due to _their advanced military technology and strong manufacturing capabilities_, especially the US.


How many years of study did it take to quote like a 15 year-old?
Plus, again from above, Japan anyone?
That's the second time this piece mistook ability to and factual action.



PARIKRAMA said:


> According to the Shenzhen Television report, India will deploy its new French-made fighters in the disputed areas bordering Pakistan and China.



Really? And here I thought GoI wanted the best fighter available to quell
the rebellion in Telangana and that the Raffys would be based in Goa! 

So a lot of huffin' and puffin' and talking crazy only to morph into this :


PARIKRAMA said:


> "There are two objective factors boosting arms deals in Asia: the chaos in the Middle East and fears over China's rise," he noted.


Yeah, India's gonna bomb Gaza soon ... 


PARIKRAMA said:


> Many of China's neighbors are also on the list of top 10 importers, such as Vietnam, South Korea and India.
> 
> "Due to the South China Sea dispute and the increasing power of the Chinese navy, countries like Vietnam and the Philippines are very concerned, but the US is not helping China solve the problem peacefully," Song said.
> 
> "The US government and media are hyping the 'China Threat Theory,' trying to convince countries in Asia that China is on the offensive," he said.



Where India buying French jets turns into America badmouthing
the disgracious mess Beijing is brewing in the SCS for nefarious
reasons! Wait! What? Why?

 A propaghandi piece, and not a very good one at that.

You really shouldn't encourage such childish behaviour, PariK my friend!
And great day all, Tay.

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## mike2000 is back

Taygibay said:


> No it won't, at least not without a vector. Since ASMP wasn't sold and Brahmos-NG
> having started development in May of this year only being a few years to fruition, the
> above statement is a fallacy. Fr Raffys can nuke, Indian Rafales won't ... for now.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like something more than this gentlemen's title to enable me to follow his point.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL If it wasn't for diplomatic reasons, the same would apply for China ...
> and we'll soon see when they start selling top mil ware to other nations
> exactly how discriminatory they shall be!
> 
> 
> 
> Whut?      ETC.
> 
> _By the way, F-16s can carry the B-61 so moot point._
> ​
> 
> Sure, Indonesia comes to mind, SoKo, heck, Japan!
> Incrazyble!
> 
> 
> 
> How many years of study did it take to quote like a 15 year-old?
> Plus, again from above, Japan anyone?
> That's the second time this piece mistook ability to and factual action.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? And here I thought GoI wanted the best fighter available to quell
> the rebellion in Telangana and that the Raffys would be based in Goa!
> 
> So a lot of huffin' and puffin' and talking crazy only to morph into this :
> 
> Yeah, India's gonna bomb Gaza soon ...
> 
> 
> Where India buying French jets turns into America badmouthing
> the disgracious mess Beijing is brewing in the SCS for nefarious
> reasons! Wait! What? Why?
> 
> A propaghandi piece, and not a very good one at that.
> 
> You really shouldn't encourage such childish behaviour, PariK my friend!
> And great day all, Tay.



It's Global Times. What do you expect?

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## PARIKRAMA

Taygibay said:


> No it won't, at least not without a vector. Since ASMP wasn't sold and Brahmos-NG
> having started development in May of this year only being a few years to fruition, the
> above statement is a fallacy. Fr Raffys can nuke, Indian Rafales won't ... for now.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like something more than this gentlemen's title to enable me to follow his point.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL If it wasn't for diplomatic reasons, the same would apply for China ...
> and we'll soon see when they start selling top mil ware to other nations
> exactly how discriminatory they shall be!
> 
> 
> 
> Whut?      ETC.
> 
> _By the way, F-16s can carry the B-61 so moot point._
> ​
> 
> Sure, Indonesia comes to mind, SoKo, heck, Japan!
> Incrazyble!
> 
> 
> 
> How many years of study did it take to quote like a 15 year-old?
> Plus, again from above, Japan anyone?
> That's the second time this piece mistook ability to and factual action.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? And here I thought GoI wanted the best fighter available to quell
> the rebellion in Telangana and that the Raffys would be based in Goa!
> 
> So a lot of huffin' and puffin' and talking crazy only to morph into this :
> 
> Yeah, India's gonna bomb Gaza soon ...
> 
> 
> Where India buying French jets turns into America badmouthing
> the disgracious mess Beijing is brewing in the SCS for nefarious
> reasons! Wait! What? Why?
> 
> A propaghandi piece, and not a very good one at that.
> 
> You really shouldn't encourage such childish behaviour, PariK my friend!
> And great day all, Tay.




You should enjoy the heartburn and discredit with false information...
I posted it bcz once when MIi comes, i dont know what more they will write.....

but if that is an official position written by a Think tank, then i really dont get it... Jealousy, guarded response, alarmist, or just write anything for the heck of it really...



mike2000 is back said:


> It's Global Times. What do you expect?


exactly

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## Agent_47



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## Agent_47

*DefesaNet flight tested India’s new fighter. Our test pilot pushed Dassault’s fighter jet to her limits, and here ‘le Commandant Vianney’ shares his impressions. Read it, enjoy it, and take your own conclusions if Rafale is worth every Rupee paid for it.

For full report - http://www.defesanet.com.br/en/air/noticia/23607/FLIGHT-TEST--RAFALE/*

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## PARIKRAMA



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## Grevion

PARIKRAMA said:


>


Which game is that??

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## Taygibay

litefire said:


> Which game is that??



One that copies this flight :

vol-patrouille-neuron-rafale-7x-hevc-1600kbps-720p-eeqtynje_110_1078_850.mp4

http://www.dassault-aviation.tv/The_Patrol_nEUROn_Rafale_Falcon_7X-1078-en.html






GN, Tay.

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## #hydra#

Taygibay said:


> One that copies this flight :
> 
> vol-patrouille-neuron-rafale-7x-hevc-1600kbps-720p-eeqtynje_110_1078_850.mp4
> 
> http://www.dassault-aviation.tv/The_Patrol_nEUROn_Rafale_Falcon_7X-1078-en.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GN, Tay.


This is the first operational flying air wing design outside united states in post world time.

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## BON PLAN

Agent_47 said:


>


Just one error : canards and main wings doesn't have leading edge aligned ! unfortunately I think...


----------



## BON PLAN

Agent_47 said:


> *DefesaNet flight tested India’s new fighter. Our test pilot pushed Dassault’s fighter jet to her limits, and here ‘le Commandant Vianney’ shares his impressions. Read it, enjoy it, and take your own conclusions if Rafale is worth every Rupee paid for it.
> 
> For full report - http://www.defesanet.com.br/en/air/noticia/23607/FLIGHT-TEST--RAFALE/*


sorry !!!! another error : range of AASM is more than 60km in high altitude (see link)
http://www.safran-electronics-defense.com/fr/aeronautique-et-espace/armements-et-missiles/aasm

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## PARIKRAMA

litefire said:


> Which game is that??











































*“Immersive Dassault Aviation” Virtual Reality*
*Dassault Aviation presents its aircraft in virtual reality on Oculus Rift:
“Immersive Dassault Aviation”*





On 12th April 2014, Dassault Aviation achieved a world first with a formation flight by a combat UAV (the nEUROn), a civil aircraft (the Falcon 7X) and a fighter aircraft (the Rafale).

Through Dassault Aviation’s combination of innovative aeronautics and digital technology, anyone can now make this formation flight in 3D virtual reality with the “Immersive Dassault Aviation” application.

The “Immersive Dassault Aviation” application was revealed for the first time at last summer’s air shows, the Paris Air Show in particular. Its goal is to present the company’s aircraft and to share its passion for aeronautics. It can now be downloaded from here.

The “Immersive Dassault Aviation” application was conceived and designed by the E-Communication team at Dassault Aviation and by the Modedemploi SOFTEAM Digital agency and places the player at the controls of the Rafale, flying over the majestic peaks of the Mont-Blanc range. The 360° 3D immersion in the midst of the aircraft is a quite stunning experience…


http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en.../immersive-dassault-aviation-virtual-reality/

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## Grevion

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 339685
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 339687
> 
> 
> *“Immersive Dassault Aviation” Virtual Reality*
> *Dassault Aviation presents its aircraft in virtual reality on Oculus Rift:
> “Immersive Dassault Aviation”*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 12th April 2014, Dassault Aviation achieved a world first with a formation flight by a combat UAV (the nEUROn), a civil aircraft (the Falcon 7X) and a fighter aircraft (the Rafale).
> 
> Through Dassault Aviation’s combination of innovative aeronautics and digital technology, anyone can now make this formation flight in 3D virtual reality with the “Immersive Dassault Aviation” application.
> 
> The “Immersive Dassault Aviation” application was revealed for the first time at last summer’s air shows, the Paris Air Show in particular. Its goal is to present the company’s aircraft and to share its passion for aeronautics. It can now be downloaded from here.
> 
> The “Immersive Dassault Aviation” application was conceived and designed by the E-Communication team at Dassault Aviation and by the Modedemploi SOFTEAM Digital agency and places the player at the controls of the Rafale, flying over the majestic peaks of the Mont-Blanc range. The 360° 3D immersion in the midst of the aircraft is a quite stunning experience…
> 
> 
> http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en.../immersive-dassault-aviation-virtual-reality/


So it's a flight stimulation and has no air to air or air to ground/sea mission objectives.
Like this-

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## randomradio

It's made for VR.

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## DrSomnath999

Taygibay said:


> No it won't, at least not without a vector. Since ASMP wasn't sold and Brahmos-NG
> having started development in May of this year only is a few years to fruition, the
> above statement is a fallacy. Fr Raffys can nuke,* Indian Rafales won't ... for now.*
> 
> 
> 
> .


that part is horribly wrong .
iaf have mirage 2000 before and it is nuclear capable .It doesnt have any ALCM but still it is nuclear capable.

*the assumption that only a plane if possess an ALCM makes it nuclear capable is rubbish .*
It needs to carry nuclear capable bomb which the IAF rafale would have the very beginning it gets inducted 

*CHEERS*

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## Taygibay

I'm not sure if I understand your post above correctly, DrSomnath,
so I'll re-explain that sentence and wait for you to answer :


PARIKRAMA said:


> The jets can carry tactical nuclear warheads, and this means India's nuclear deterrence capability will be greatly improved


All fighter jets can carry nuclear bombs [ Do check how many planes can use the B-61. ]
Just about all fighters can also carry a nuclear tipped missile.
Thus singling out the Rafale must relate to it actually having the weapons.

However, since that particular weapon is not coming in that 36GtoG deal,
it does NOT mean that India's deterrence will greatly improve. At best, the
IAF now has one more AC able to drop what it always used for the purpose.

The Chinese gentleman's assertion remains a fallacy



DrSomnath999 said:


> It needs to carry nuclear capable bomb which the IAF rafale would have the very beginning it gets inducted


I take it you then have relative proof of an existing Indian nuclear weapon
that the contract state will be ported on those Rafale. If so, would you mind
sharing that information?


In general, for those who like to know, only two things are required to enable
a fighter to serve as a nuke carrier : a robust chain of command communications
ensemble so the central state retains the virtual key for firing and a weapon.
Even then, the former can be skipped if the state is irresponsible.

It really begins and ends with a weapon.

Good day to you, Tay.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Taygibay said:


> I'm not sure if I understand your post above correctly, DrSomnath,
> so I'll re-explain that sentence and wait for you to answer :
> 
> All fighter jets can carry nuclear bombs [ Do check how many planes can use the B-61. ]
> Just about all fighters can also carry a nuclear tipped missile.
> Thus singling out the Rafale must relate to it actually having the weapons.
> 
> However, since that particular weapon is not coming in that 36GtoG deal,
> it does NOT mean that India's deterrence will greatly improve. At best, the
> IAF now has one more AC able to drop what it always used for the purpose.
> 
> The Chinese gentleman's assertion remains a fallacy
> 
> 
> I take it you then have relative proof of an existing Indian nuclear weapon
> that the contract state will be ported on those Rafale. If so, would you mind
> sharing that information?
> 
> 
> In general, for those who like to know, only two things are required to enable
> a fighter to serve as a nuke carrier : a robust chain of command communications
> ensemble so the central state retains the virtual key for firing and a weapon.
> Even then, the former can be skipped if the state is irresponsible.
> 
> It really begins and ends with a weapon.
> 
> Good day to you, Tay.


The plane has to be immune to EMC. All Mirage and Rafale are immune to EMC.

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## Taygibay

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> The plane has to be immune to EMC. All Mirage and Rafale are immune to EMC.



Agreed and you'd be the one to remind me/us but then Gripen has EMC
but not nukes! 
And I wonder what electro-magnetic compliance the Enola Gay really had?

All the best to you and yours, Tay.

P.S. Stray but related link : http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/END-Archive/afnwch_63-100(12).pdf

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## Hulk

While 36 is a good start but I hope over period of time both sides can work and get some additional numbers. I heard that the contact only has a clause for additional 18, is it true? That means we can go max up to 54.

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## Vergennes

Since 2015,France sold 84 Rafale to Egypt,Qatar and India amounting to about €20Bn.

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## nang2

Vergennes said:


> Since 2015,France sold 84 Rafale to Egypt,Qatar and India amounting to about €20Bn.
> 
> View attachment 339804


good job, France.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/782344135017660417
May be a decade down the line , our own nuclear powered AC and Rafale M.

@PARIKRAMA 

A request for a post describing the payload and mission profile of a Rafale with pure Air to Ground Mission in our western neighbour. And also do take that Rafale will be flying from say Gwalior . And Su30MKI will be taking care of Air Superiority duties. 

Also take the target as an long range SAM site protected by Quick Reaction SAMs and Modern anti aircraft artillery system , would be a nice read up for us , also showing the capabilities of Rafale.

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Agreed and you'd be the one to remind me/us but then Gripen has EMC
> but not nukes!
> And I wonder what electro-magnetic compliance the Enola Gay really had?
> 
> All the best to you and yours, Tay.
> 
> P.S. Stray but related link : http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/END-Archive/afnwch_63-100(12).pdf



Microelectronics were not invented at the time. They most likely turned off their radar and other equipment before the blast.

Gripen has EMC because it is expected to work in nuclear environment courtesy of the Soviets.


----------



## RPK

http://www.financialexpress.com/eco...ints-at-early-arrival-of-fighter-jets/401145/

*Rafale deal: Manohar Parrikar hints at early arrival of fighter jets*

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## PARIKRAMA

RPK said:


> http://www.financialexpress.com/eco...ints-at-early-arrival-of-fighter-jets/401145/
> 
> *Rafale deal: Manohar Parrikar hints at early arrival of fighter jets*



Thanks @RPK 

The article states

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Sunday hinted at the early arrival of the Rafale fighter jets from France to India.

*“As per the terms of the deal, it is 36 months, but it may come earlier slightly,” Parrikar told the media at the sidelines of Swachhta rally.*

India on September 23 inked a deal for direct acquisition of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France.

French Defence Minister Yves Le Drian finalised the deal, which will cost India Euros 7.8 billion along with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar.

The negotiations to buy the Rafale fighter jets came through on September 21.

The development came after the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) discussed the deal and gave the green signal to go ahead with its signing to give a crucial boost to the Indian Air Force.

In June, Parrikar had stated that the number of the fighter jets were “on path of coming to conclusion”.

Both India and France had hoped to wrap up the strategic order during French President Francois Hollande’s visit for the Republic Day celebrations in January this year, but the bargaining over the price stalled the process......

+++

Now look again






https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-380#post-8726014

DM MP confirming what source said before and posted on 24th.....

For long the engine program for the better ones should be online by 2018.. So ideally we should get a couple of jets at least .. and that is something which we have been saying time and again here..again it will also depend upon Meriganc Line scaling up as well..

@Vergennes @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @SpArK @Picdelamirand-oil @MilSpec @hellfire @nair @BON PLAN @Ankit Kumar 002 @GuardianRED @R!CK @Armani @randomradio @litefire @zebra7 @Spectre @Joe Shearer https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @surya kiran

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## Nilgiri

PARIKRAMA said:


> Thanks @RPK
> 
> The article states
> 
> Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Sunday hinted at the early arrival of the Rafale fighter jets from France to India.
> 
> *“As per the terms of the deal, it is 36 months, but it may come earlier slightly,” Parrikar told the media at the sidelines of Swachhta rally.*
> 
> India on September 23 inked a deal for direct acquisition of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France.
> 
> French Defence Minister Yves Le Drian finalised the deal, which will cost India Euros 7.8 billion along with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar.
> 
> The negotiations to buy the Rafale fighter jets came through on September 21.
> 
> The development came after the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) discussed the deal and gave the green signal to go ahead with its signing to give a crucial boost to the Indian Air Force.
> 
> In June, Parrikar had stated that the number of the fighter jets were “on path of coming to conclusion”.
> 
> Both India and France had hoped to wrap up the strategic order during French President Francois Hollande’s visit for the Republic Day celebrations in January this year, but the bargaining over the price stalled the process......
> 
> +++
> 
> Now look again
> 
> 
> View attachment 339939
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-380#post-8726014
> 
> DM MP confirming what source said before and posted on 24th.....
> 
> For long the engine program for the better ones should be online by 2018.. So ideally we should get a couple of jets at least .. and that is something which we have been saying time and again here..again it will also depend upon Meriganc Line scaling up as well..
> 
> @Vergennes @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @SpArK @Picdelamirand-oil @MilSpec @hellfire @nair @BON PLAN @Ankit Kumar 002 @GuardianRED @R!CK @Armani @randomradio @litefire @zebra7 @Spectre @Joe Shearer https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @surya kiran



You beat me to posting again!

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> Microelectronics were not invented at the time. They most likely turned off their radar and other equipment before the blast.



Worst than that, man! The original bug creating the need had just not happened yet :
*269* USS Forrestal disaster. With the war in Southeast Asia providing experience for all phases of naval operations, several carriers which normally belong to the Atlantic Fleet were occasionally routed to WESTPAC duty, and thus it was that on June 6, 1967, Forrestal left Norfolk, Virginia, for what was to be her first combat deployment.

Carrying Air Wing 17, Forrestal was the first U.S. carrier to be built from the keel up with an angled deck. She carried East Coast squadrons, two F-4B squadrons squadrons; VFs 11 and 74; VAs 106 and 46, flying A-4Es; RVAH-11, with RA-5C Vigilantes, for which the big carrier had undergone major modification for the IOIC reconnaissance intelligence system; the KA-3Bs of VAH-10; and VAW-123, flying E-2As.

Forrestal arrived on Yankee Station on July 25 and immediately began combat operations, her aircraft flying 150 sorties during the next 4 days, without the loss of a single aircraft. At 10:52 A.M. on July 29, the second launch was being readied when a Zuni rocket accidentally fired from an F-4 Phantom parked on the starboard side of the flight deck aft of the island. The missile streaked across the deck into a 400 gallon belly fuel tank on a parked A-4D Skyhawk. The ruptured tank spew highly flammable JP-5 fuel onto the deck which ignited spreading flames over the flight deck under other fully loaded aircraft ready for launch. The ensuing fire caused ordinance to explode and other rockets to ignite. Spread by the wind, the flames engulfed the aft end of the stricken ship turning the flight deck into a blazing inferno.. Berthing spaces immediately below the flight deck became death traps for fifty men, while other crewmen were blown overboard by the explosion.

Nearby ships hastened to the Forrestal’s aid. The Oriskany, herself a victim of a tragic fire in October 1966, stood by to offer fire-fighting and medical aid to the larger carrier. Nearby escort vessels sprayed water on the burning Forrestal and within an hour the fire on the flight deck was under control. But secondary fires below deck took another 12 hours to contain. The damage and loss of life was catastrophic.

The four-and-a-half-acre flight deck was littered with pieces of aircraft, as men struggled to clear away bombs and ammunition, throwing the ordnance over the side. One young 130-pound lieutenant found the strength to heave a 250-pound bomb overboard.

The Zuni rocket that was accidentally fired from an F-4 Phantom and started the fire is believed to have been *triggered by a combination of the powerful fields at deck level from the ship’s radar* and an incorrectly fitted shielded cable connector.​
This summary is from here where all EMC problems are listed,
http://www.compliance-club.com/archive/bananaskins/251-272.asp
most of them being everyday civilian life occurrences of course.

But it shows why EMC is essential, what Pic meant to outline, _for_
_a safe and secure use_ of nukes : so your delivery plane is safe and
the bomb doesn't blow up too early.
Safe and secure is the Graal of mil engineers, esp. with electronics.

But you're very right on the Russians "providing an EM environment".
Link for you too on that, in case you didn't have it already then :
https://www.electronic.nu/2015/09/2...-work-for-the-jas-39-gripen-fighter-aircraft/

Good day to you, Tay.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> Thanks @RPK
> 
> The article states
> 
> Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Sunday hinted at the early arrival of the Rafale fighter jets from France to India.
> 
> *“As per the terms of the deal, it is 36 months, but it may come earlier slightly,” Parrikar told the media at the sidelines of Swachhta rally.*
> 
> India on September 23 inked a deal for direct acquisition of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France.
> 
> French Defence Minister Yves Le Drian finalised the deal, which will cost India Euros 7.8 billion along with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar.
> 
> The negotiations to buy the Rafale fighter jets came through on September 21.
> 
> The development came after the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) discussed the deal and gave the green signal to go ahead with its signing to give a crucial boost to the Indian Air Force.
> 
> In June, Parrikar had stated that the number of the fighter jets were “on path of coming to conclusion”.
> 
> Both India and France had hoped to wrap up the strategic order during French President Francois Hollande’s visit for the Republic Day celebrations in January this year, but the bargaining over the price stalled the process......


You should know that some of Thales engineering teams are starting ... a fanatic recruitment (something like +25%; + 40%), so it is unlikely that in 36 months the final standard is usable ...

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## BON PLAN

Taygibay said:


> Agreed and you'd be the one to remind me/us but then Gripen has EMC
> but not nukes!
> And I wonder what electro-magnetic compliance the Enola Gay really had?
> 
> All the best to you and yours, Tay.
> 
> P.S. Stray but related link : http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/END-Archive/afnwch_63-100(12).pdf


How many electronic devices Enola Gay had ? zero.


----------



## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Worst than that, man! The original bug creating the need had just not happened yet :
> *269* USS Forrestal disaster. With the war in Southeast Asia providing experience for all phases of naval operations, several carriers which normally belong to the Atlantic Fleet were occasionally routed to WESTPAC duty, and thus it was that on June 6, 1967, Forrestal left Norfolk, Virginia, for what was to be her first combat deployment.
> 
> Carrying Air Wing 17, Forrestal was the first U.S. carrier to be built from the keel up with an angled deck. She carried East Coast squadrons, two F-4B squadrons squadrons; VFs 11 and 74; VAs 106 and 46, flying A-4Es; RVAH-11, with RA-5C Vigilantes, for which the big carrier had undergone major modification for the IOIC reconnaissance intelligence system; the KA-3Bs of VAH-10; and VAW-123, flying E-2As.
> 
> Forrestal arrived on Yankee Station on July 25 and immediately began combat operations, her aircraft flying 150 sorties during the next 4 days, without the loss of a single aircraft. At 10:52 A.M. on July 29, the second launch was being readied when a Zuni rocket accidentally fired from an F-4 Phantom parked on the starboard side of the flight deck aft of the island. The missile streaked across the deck into a 400 gallon belly fuel tank on a parked A-4D Skyhawk. The ruptured tank spew highly flammable JP-5 fuel onto the deck which ignited spreading flames over the flight deck under other fully loaded aircraft ready for launch. The ensuing fire caused ordinance to explode and other rockets to ignite. Spread by the wind, the flames engulfed the aft end of the stricken ship turning the flight deck into a blazing inferno.. Berthing spaces immediately below the flight deck became death traps for fifty men, while other crewmen were blown overboard by the explosion.
> 
> Nearby ships hastened to the Forrestal’s aid. The Oriskany, herself a victim of a tragic fire in October 1966, stood by to offer fire-fighting and medical aid to the larger carrier. Nearby escort vessels sprayed water on the burning Forrestal and within an hour the fire on the flight deck was under control. But secondary fires below deck took another 12 hours to contain. The damage and loss of life was catastrophic.
> 
> The four-and-a-half-acre flight deck was littered with pieces of aircraft, as men struggled to clear away bombs and ammunition, throwing the ordnance over the side. One young 130-pound lieutenant found the strength to heave a 250-pound bomb overboard.
> 
> The Zuni rocket that was accidentally fired from an F-4 Phantom and started the fire is believed to have been *triggered by a combination of the powerful fields at deck level from the ship’s radar* and an incorrectly fitted shielded cable connector.​
> This summary is from here where all EMC problems are listed,
> http://www.compliance-club.com/archive/bananaskins/251-272.asp
> most of them being everyday civilian life occurrences of course.
> 
> But it shows why EMC is essential, what Pic meant to outline, _for_
> _a safe and secure use_ of nukes : so your delivery plane is safe and
> the bomb doesn't blow up too early.
> Safe and secure is the Graal of mil engineers, esp. with electronics.
> 
> But you're very right on the Russians "providing an EM environment".
> Link for you too on that, in case you didn't have it already then :
> https://www.electronic.nu/2015/09/2...-work-for-the-jas-39-gripen-fighter-aircraft/
> 
> Good day to you, Tay.



That incident is unrelated to NEMP. NEMP was known well before the first bomb was tested. The Enola Gay had double shielded electronics and instrumentation. Even then vacuum tube built systems have failed due to the failure of components.

The British used to call NEMP radio flash.

As for Gripen, I won't be surprised if the US had plans of providing Sweden with nuclear weapons in a war against the Russians.



BON PLAN said:


> How many electronic devices Enola Gay had ? zero.



Even vacuum tubes are electronics bro.

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## zebra7

PARIKRAMA said:


> Thanks @RPK
> 
> The article states
> 
> Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Sunday hinted at the early arrival of the Rafale fighter jets from France to India.
> 
> *“As per the terms of the deal, it is 36 months, but it may come earlier slightly,” Parrikar told the media at the sidelines of Swachhta rally.*
> 
> India on September 23 inked a deal for direct acquisition of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France.
> 
> French Defence Minister Yves Le Drian finalised the deal, which will cost India Euros 7.8 billion along with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar.
> 
> The negotiations to buy the Rafale fighter jets came through on September 21.
> 
> The development came after the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) discussed the deal and gave the green signal to go ahead with its signing to give a crucial boost to the Indian Air Force.
> 
> In June, Parrikar had stated that the number of the fighter jets were “on path of coming to conclusion”.
> 
> Both India and France had hoped to wrap up the strategic order during French President Francois Hollande’s visit for the Republic Day celebrations in January this year, but the bargaining over the price stalled the process......
> 
> +++
> 
> Now look again
> 
> 
> View attachment 339939
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-380#post-8726014
> 
> DM MP confirming what source said before and posted on 24th.....
> 
> For long the engine program for the better ones should be online by 2018.. So ideally we should get a couple of jets at least .. and that is something which we have been saying time and again here..again it will also depend upon Meriganc Line scaling up as well..
> 
> @Vergennes @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @SpArK @Picdelamirand-oil @MilSpec @hellfire @nair @BON PLAN @Ankit Kumar 002 @GuardianRED @R!CK @Armani @randomradio @litefire @zebra7 @Spectre @Joe Shearer https://defence.pk/members/bregs.148509/ @surya kiran



Don't know how, but Source is Good One, but still waiting for my question which I asked you ask from your source.

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## randomradio

Vstol says this on another forum.
_It appears that first Rafale will arrive within 24 months and final will be in India by 36th month._

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## Ankit Kumar 002

randomradio said:


> Vstol says this on another forum.
> _It appears that first Rafale will arrive within 24 months and final will be in India by 36th month._



Too ambitious.

Things will be clear when the official signatures are exchanged with French Head of State and first tranche of payments are released.

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


> NEMP was known well before the first bomb was tested. The Enola Gay had double shielded electronics and instrumentation.



Yes, to protect the plane! With EMC, that did come after the Forrestal,
it also protects the weapon. The two are compliant to EM interactions.

I'm really not sure about American nukes for Sweden however; unlikely
AFAIK & IMHoO but let's check for fun.

Later, Tay.


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## R!CK

randomradio said:


> Vstol says this on another forum.
> _It appears that first Rafale will arrive within 24 months and final will be in India by 36th month._



36 jets in 36 months? impossible. I wont object an early delivery start date of 24-30 months however.

Good Day!

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## PARIKRAMA

*Interview of DM MP with CNBCTV18*

*CNBC-TV18* ‏@CNBCTV18Live  25m25 minutes ago
RS22000 cr export opportunity via Rafale deal for Indian industry;10% of Rafale deal value is related to Tech transfer @manoharparrikar exl

CNBC-TV18‏ @CNBCTV18Live
*In 4-5 yrs will be ready w/ at least 5 squardrons of Tejas;improved serviceability of IAF aircraft to enhance air power*


CNBC-TV18‏ @CNBCTV18Live
74% Offset Of The Deal Directly Linked With India Purchases: Defence Minister @manoharparrikar In An Exclusive Conversation W/ @ShereenBhan


55mCNBC-TV18‏ @CNBCTV18Live
*Have Asked The French Party To Speed-Up Supply Of The #Rafale Fighter Jets, Says Defence Minister @manoharparrikar to @ShereenBhan *

Quoting what i said earlier..
_Basically the context of the above statement is very important as the deal includes_

_50% offset clause under which Thales and Dassault Group has to invest in India_
_The investment is to create a Indian MIC ecosystem to support and build Rafales in India_
_The offset amounts to Rs29K crores_
_The deal specifies that out of Rs 29K crores_
_*74 %* of this amount or *Rs 21460* Crores or approx Euro 2.9 Bn is via local manufacturing of components for meeting this order_
_It is mandatory to do sourcing of this much amount from local Indian MIC_
_Also included is a *26%* of this amount to share the TOT aspect with local vendors with whom they will have a partnership_

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-374#post-8722105

About delivery schedule I already said source talked about earlier than 36 and finishing by 54. That got confirmed again by DM MP interview.

Anything sooner than this schedule will require a much deeper support from Merignac line. I am optimistic that 54 can be narrowed to 48 months but anything below it will require a much herculean effort from the whole line, ecosystem and perhaps more orders as well. Bcz financial considerations may arise for such a quicker schedule.



@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others

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## Vergennes

A nice Rafale picture,in middle east.

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## Taygibay

R!CK said:


> 36 jets in 36 months? impossible.



Why? The rate increase has begun so that Egypt's Raffys will be served by early 2018.
For now, no deliveries will be made to France so that Qatari cells can be built up even
though final assembly will have to wait for their standard to be ready.
By late 2018, the rhythm will be 2 per month or 22 a year with mostly if not only India to
receive machines. So 34 in 36 months if you want to quibble, is a distinct possibility.

I wouldn't bet the house and kids that it will happen but it's within the realms of reality.

Good day, mate, Tay.

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## randomradio

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Too ambitious.
> 
> Things will be clear when the official signatures are exchanged with French Head of State and first tranche of payments are released.





R!CK said:


> 36 jets in 36 months? impossible. I wont object an early delivery start date of 24-30 months however.
> 
> Good Day!



Anything is possible. The French have built their MII with the ability to boost production very quickly in case of war.

If the French boost production to 33/year, a 36 month delivery is 100% assured because for two years the French deliveries will be zero and nobody else but India and Qatar will be getting large deliveries.

And if the MoD has assured more orders right after, then the production boost is much more likely, particularly if the navy buys all 54 jets from the French line.

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## Taygibay

The 3 per month remains elusive but the rest of this *^* is correct.
What could happen is a triple/full rate on the manufacturing line
and a 2 per month one on the assembly line.
The IN's 54 can trickle in until their final home is afloat while the
50% excess kits are sent to the MII?

Food for thought, Tay.

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## R!CK

Taygibay said:


> Why? The rate increase has begun so that *Egypt's Raffys will be served by early 2018*.
> For now, no deliveries will be made to France so that Qatari cells can be built up even
> though final assembly will have to wait for their standard to be ready.
> By late 2018, the rhythm will be 2 per month or 22 a year with mostly if not only India to
> receive machines. So 34 in 36 months if you want to quibble, is a distinct possibility.
> 
> I wouldn't bet the house and kids that it will happen but it's within the realms of reality.
> 
> Good day, mate, Tay.





randomradio said:


> Anything is possible. The French have built their MII with the ability to boost production very quickly in case of war.
> 
> If the French boost production to 33/year, a 36 month delivery is 100% assured because for two years the French deliveries will be zero and nobody else but India and Qatar will be getting large deliveries.
> 
> And if the MoD has assured more orders right after, then the production boost is much more likely, particularly if the navy buys all 54 jets from the French line.



No disrespect gentlemen, I was not saying its impossible for DA to make 36 jets in 36 months, but impossible for DA to deliver it all to India in 36 months.

My argument being:

36 months from 2016 - Lets call it 2019 end.

*2017*

1 unit for France
3 units for Egypt
Line up-gradation to continue. Qatar standard to complete testing. Indian standard to begin testing.

_Source: *http://www.dassault-aviation.tv/first_half_year_2016_results-1416-en.html* and multiple official documents._

*Order Backlog 2017 End: France(31) Egypt(15) Qatar (24) India (36) = 131 units*

*2018 - 2019*

24 months = 22 production months

2/month = 44 jets in 2 years

I'd personally be really surprised if France delivers 36 jets to India while only 8 jets get delivered to Qatar & Egypt combined in 2 years. Which is nearly 2 jets a year to both customers? 

3/month looks highly unlikely unless more orders flows in. Also keep in consideration that option clause for Egypt will be placed only upon delivery of first 24 jets. At 33/year output, the current order book of 106 jets (including 31 French units) won't last beyond 2021? Or excluding French orders, it wont last end of 2020. Makes no economical sense for such a ramp up unless another tranche of orders are placed.

P.S: Just assumptions and personal opinion after all.

Good Day!

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## randomradio

R!CK said:


> No disrespect gentlemen, I was not saying its impossible for DA to make 36 jets in 36 months, but impossible for DA to deliver it all to India in 36 months.
> 
> My argument being:
> 
> 36 months from 2016 - Lets call it 2019 end.
> 
> *2017*
> 
> 1 unit for France
> 3 units for Egypt
> Line up-gradation to continue. Qatar standard to complete testing. Indian standard to begin testing.
> 
> _Source: *http://www.dassault-aviation.tv/first_half_year_2016_results-1416-en.html* and multiple official documents._
> 
> *Order Backlog 2017 End: France(31) Egypt(15) Qatar (24) India (36) = 131 units*
> 
> *2018 - 2019*
> 
> 24 months = 22 production months
> 
> 2/month = 44 jets in 2 years
> 
> I'd personally be really surprised if France delivers 36 jets to India while only 8 jets get delivered to Qatar & Egypt combined in 2 years. Which is nearly 2 jets a year to both customers?
> 
> 3/month looks highly unlikely unless more orders flows in. Also keep in consideration that option clause for Egypt will be placed only upon delivery of first 24 jets. At 33/year output, the current order book of 106 jets (including 31 French units) won't last beyond 2021? Or excluding French orders, it wont last end of 2020. Makes no economical sense for such a ramp up unless another tranche of orders are placed.
> 
> P.S: Just assumptions and personal opinion after all.
> 
> Good Day!



For India, the financial year goes up to March, while for France, it ends in December. Anyway, in 2018, production may only be 22 jets, but in 2019 it can be increased to 33. If this happens, which is realistic, Dassault can produce 27 jets for India by December 2019, or all 36 by March 2020.

It would be even better if production touches 27 jets, at 2.5/month by mid 2018. Then all 36 can likely be produced by December 2019.

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## PARIKRAMA

Whats 152 NM on the right? And whats 1 written below it?






In this picture, the radar seems to be in Surveillance mode (SURV) - In that a written number you see is 287 parallel to the right of SURV. Is that 287 NM? Is that the tracking and scanning range or just scanning range?


152 NM - 280 Km
287 NM = 531 Km

The above are some of the pictures i am trying to find of the cockpit and perhaps the HMDS pic to see what numbers it popping to the pilot..
*
Underlying Reason*
Can anyone detail this and compare it with a MKI Bars radar? Purely the scanning range perspective and later the other capabilities..

Reason - There seems to be a view with MOD as per source that Rafale AESA RBE2 Radar enables a much better scanning and sourcing of targets then present PESA ones in MKI, even though BARS internally has been upgraded a lot. Source does not quote too much on numbers but of course multiple target tracking as well as capacity to see through the airspace seems to showcase a much better quality and information perspective.

Again this seems to suggest as per the source , contrary to earlier thoughts of MKI working as Mini Awacs and Rafale going passive strategy, it seems there is a much wider view that Rafale may go active in front in small numbers (just 1 or 2 max) and plot the whole course with information relayed to fleet behind like MKI who will process the data and get assigned accordingly for engaging the target.

Of course this assumes the intense AD and EW environment survivability is highest for Rafale as compared to other aircraft in our fleet .. But whats surprising is the comments that its Radar ie RBE 2 AESA gives a much longer range as well..

This brings me to critically the next question.. Did we use MKI with maximum operable power under standard conditions for the radar or we have kind of used a lower grade due to some constraints like heat emissions and life of the radar.. Bcz if its this case then again theoretical test range versus practical application will have a much wider implication.

@Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @zebra7
Can you guys help me understand this..

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## randomradio

PARIKRAMA said:


> In this picture, the radar seems to be in Surveillance mode (SURV) - In that a written number you see is 287 parallel to the right of SURV. Is that 287 NM? Is that the tracking and scanning range or just scanning range?
> 
> 
> 152 NM - 280 Km
> 287 NM = 531 Km
> 
> The above are some of the pictures i am trying to find of the cockpit and perhaps the HMDS pic to see what numbers it popping to the pilot..



Guessing. Those are probably the distances to the next way point.



> Can anyone detail this and compare it with a MKI Bars radar? Purely the scanning range perspective and later the other capabilities..



We don't have specs for either.

And AESA is always better than PESA, not just for range. Some MKIs have lower end Bars and some have higher end Bars. Some will get the Irbis upgrade, some will get AESA upgrade.

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## BON PLAN

R!CK said:


> I'd personally be really surprised if France delivers 36 jets to India while only 8 jets get delivered to Qatar & Egypt combined in 2 years. Which is nearly 2 jets a year to both customers?


You're right man !
Qatar contract request 11 plane/year for 2018, so India will never received its 36 planes in just two years.

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## Skull and Bones

My only question is, are we going to make Rafales inhouse?

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## Taygibay

R!CK said:


> ... while only 8 jets get delivered to Qatar & Egypt combined in 2 years.



Huh, not exactly Rick mate or at least consider why :
The Qatari jets are not pushed until their standard is defined;
the first one delivered is meant for IOC for testing and use in
Qatar in order to refine that very standard. 2018 for the rest.

Your number is then that of partial count since by year's end,
6 and 3 will have come out for Egypt and France. That's two
lesser than a regular year because the line has begun its a-
daptation. It is in 2017 that the output will really suffer with as
little as 4 planes coming out.

Then you get to 2018 which Trappier described as the Year of the Rafale.
At that point, the line will have widened and what was needed
to plan output was the very Indian deal which just passed and
will be completed soon.

True, there will be Egyptian ACs left & the Qataris will be getting
their planes then and the former may activate their option as
soon as they get their last regular one.** *But we don't know the
exact rate the line will then support. As you surely know and as
our colleague rightfully pointed out above, the choice is not bet-
ween 2 and 3 Rafales per month, it needs not be an integer.

I also wish to point out that the deal will only be valid once both
the offsets and provisional check have come through and that 
the 36 months should begin once they are only.
But if we remember MII is already being prepared, those 6 months
to a year may be shortened and or subtracted.

Last but not least, that was a "side interview" of Manohar Parrikar,
an infamous practice of his in my view as most know. He once again
tried to play media darling by outing something new out of context.
And he only said that the first jets might be there sooner than 36 months.

So, Sept/Oct 2016 + 6 months = March 2017 ( our elections  ).
March 2017 + 36 months = March 2020.
Take out the 6 months for formalities thanks to MII and get end of 2019.

As you were however answering RandomR's quote of a source he trusts,
I'll let him defend it further as I doubt its veracity too. 24 months from now
for Indian planes is not credible if the engines are uprated for instance
because Thales has offered that development but not completed it. How
fast could they make one? Dassault will likely have time for trials if it comes
next week but if it takes 20 months, forget IOC in less than 24 months, much
less max output line rate. But they are great at crash programs so who knows?

At Parik,


PARIKRAMA said:


> down right at the right bottom an altimeter with degrees of direction as well...


Artificial horizon would be a better name, would it not?

As for range, noting first that your pic seems to be taken over the sea,
apply this quote by a Thales spokesperson about it to the PESA RBE2 :
"In terms of performance, detection range is increased by *considerably more than 50%* and the radar can look in many directions at the same time offering significantly enhanced tracking capabilities."​Practical estimate from me to you : 180km detection and TWS of 40 targets.

But related to your MKI Bars question, do understand the importance of LPI
and multi beams to get why it may be so.

And great early ( it's pre-dawn here ) day all, Tay.
*
** That honestly stems from their having signed first ...

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## PARIKRAMA

+++
*Reliance Defence Wins Big in Aftermath of Rafale Deal*
BY ANUJ SRIVAS ON 03/10/2016 •
*According to sources, while Bharat Electronics and Samtel still may get a piece of the Rafale offset money, it is Reliance Defence that will execute a majority of the Rs. 30,000 crore that will flow in.*



A Rafale fighter jet. Credit: Reuters

*New Delhi: *Anil Ambani-led Reliance Defence has been chosen as Dassault Aviation’s Indian strategic partner and will form a joint venture that will “be a key player in the execution of offset obligations” that arise from the recent purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets.

The 36 fighter jets that were acquired by India recently were purchased for almost 8 billion euros and came with a 50% offset clause: this offset clause ensures that 50% of the deal’s amount needs to be invested into the Indian defence ecosystem.

*Reliance Defence, according to a press release issued, will be one of the primary Indian partners that will “develop major Indian programs with high levels of technology transfer” as a result of the Rafale offset clause. The joint venture, according to Reliance executives, will indirectly benefit the entire aerospace sector.*

*“The proposed strategic partnership between Dassault and Reliance will also focus on promoting research and development projects under the IDDM program (Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured), a new initiative of India’s Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar,” the statement read.*

Ambani, in a statement, announced that this was a transformational moment for the Indian aerospace sector and for Reliance Infrastructure’s subsidiary Reliance Aerospace.

_The Wire_ had earlier reported how in early 2015, three companies were in talks with Dassault and the Indian government for possible co-production opportunities that could have arisen from the Rafale deal. The three companies were Bharat Electronics, Noida-based Samtel and Reliance Defence Systems.

*According to sources, while Bharat Electronics and Samtel still may get a piece of the offset money, it is Reliance Defence that will execute a majority of the Rs. 30,000 crore that will flow in as a result of the Rafale deal.*
http://thewire.in/70450/reliance-defence-wins-big-aftermath-rafale-deal/
++++

September 26




https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-383#post-8730988

September 2




https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-308#post-8642154

+++
Bulls eye ...

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others

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## Taygibay

http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/bu...ssault-aviation-setjoint-venture_7561081.html

"This new joint venture called Dassault Reliance Aerospace will support Prime Minister Modi's Make in India and Skill India policies and develop major Indian programmes with high levels of technology transfer to benefit the entire aerospace sector," it added. The proposed strategic partnership between Dassault and Reliance will also focus on promoting research and development projects under the IDDM programme (Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured), a new initiative of Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar.

Read more at: http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/bu...t-venture_7561081.html?utm_source=ref_article

http://www.indiainfoline.com/articl...ssault-reliance-aerospace-116100300083_1.html
"This new joint venture called “*Dassault Reliance Aerospace*” will support Prime Minister Modi’s “*Make in India*” and “*Skill India*” policies and develop major Indian programs with high levels of technology transfer to benefit the entire aerospace sector.

The proposed strategic partnership between Dassault and Reliance will also focus on promoting Research and development projects under the IDDM program (Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured), a new initiative of India’s Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar."

There you go PariK my friend, it's out for real, Tay.

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## proud_indian



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## GuardianRED

proud_indian said:


>


SO IT BEGINS!

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## halloweene

SURV is link 16 mode

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 340194
> 
> View attachment 340195
> 
> 
> +++
> *Reliance Defence Wins Big in Aftermath of Rafale Deal*
> BY ANUJ SRIVAS ON 03/10/2016 •
> *According to sources, while Bharat Electronics and Samtel still may get a piece of the Rafale offset money, it is Reliance Defence that will execute a majority of the Rs. 30,000 crore that will flow in.*
> 
> 
> 
> A Rafale fighter jet. Credit: Reuters
> 
> *New Delhi: *Anil Ambani-led Reliance Defence has been chosen as Dassault Aviation’s Indian strategic partner and will form a joint venture that will “be a key player in the execution of offset obligations” that arise from the recent purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets.
> 
> The 36 fighter jets that were acquired by India recently were purchased for almost 8 billion euros and came with a 50% offset clause: this offset clause ensures that 50% of the deal’s amount needs to be invested into the Indian defence ecosystem.
> 
> *Reliance Defence, according to a press release issued, will be one of the primary Indian partners that will “develop major Indian programs with high levels of technology transfer” as a result of the Rafale offset clause. The joint venture, according to Reliance executives, will indirectly benefit the entire aerospace sector.*
> 
> *“The proposed strategic partnership between Dassault and Reliance will also focus on promoting research and development projects under the IDDM program (Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured), a new initiative of India’s Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar,” the statement read.*
> 
> Ambani, in a statement, announced that this was a transformational moment for the Indian aerospace sector and for Reliance Infrastructure’s subsidiary Reliance Aerospace.
> 
> _The Wire_ had earlier reported how in early 2015, three companies were in talks with Dassault and the Indian government for possible co-production opportunities that could have arisen from the Rafale deal. The three companies were Bharat Electronics, Noida-based Samtel and Reliance Defence Systems.
> 
> *According to sources, while Bharat Electronics and Samtel still may get a piece of the offset money, it is Reliance Defence that will execute a majority of the Rs. 30,000 crore that will flow in as a result of the Rafale deal.*
> http://thewire.in/70450/reliance-defence-wins-big-aftermath-rafale-deal/
> ++++
> 
> September 26
> View attachment 340196
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-383#post-8730988
> 
> September 2
> View attachment 340198
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-308#post-8642154
> 
> +++
> Bulls eye ...
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others




NOTE : Is this the same reliance with the Ship yard? ... They are winning quite a few contracts

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## PARIKRAMA

halloweene said:


> SURV is link 16 mode


Nice so can you check with your friends (of course i know you have good Raffy pilot friends) and define few numbers may be in a range..


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## Taygibay

halloweene said:


> SURV is link 16 mode



By someone who'd know 

Bonjour chez vous, Tay.

P.S. Halloweene's post means that the 500Km track could
have been provided, sourced.

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## SR-91

PARIKRAMA said:


> View attachment 340194
> 
> View attachment 340195
> 
> 
> +++
> *Reliance Defence Wins Big in Aftermath of Rafale Deal*
> BY ANUJ SRIVAS ON 03/10/2016 •
> *According to sources, while Bharat Electronics and Samtel still may get a piece of the Rafale offset money, it is Reliance Defence that will execute a majority of the Rs. 30,000 crore that will flow in.*
> 
> 
> 
> A Rafale fighter jet. Credit: Reuters
> 
> *New Delhi: *Anil Ambani-led Reliance Defence has been chosen as Dassault Aviation’s Indian strategic partner and will form a joint venture that will “be a key player in the execution of offset obligations” that arise from the recent purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets.
> 
> The 36 fighter jets that were acquired by India recently were purchased for almost 8 billion euros and came with a 50% offset clause: this offset clause ensures that 50% of the deal’s amount needs to be invested into the Indian defence ecosystem.
> 
> *Reliance Defence, according to a press release issued, will be one of the primary Indian partners that will “develop major Indian programs with high levels of technology transfer” as a result of the Rafale offset clause. The joint venture, according to Reliance executives, will indirectly benefit the entire aerospace sector.*
> 
> *“The proposed strategic partnership between Dassault and Reliance will also focus on promoting research and development projects under the IDDM program (Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured), a new initiative of India’s Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar,” the statement read.*
> 
> Ambani, in a statement, announced that this was a transformational moment for the Indian aerospace sector and for Reliance Infrastructure’s subsidiary Reliance Aerospace.
> 
> _The Wire_ had earlier reported how in early 2015, three companies were in talks with Dassault and the Indian government for possible co-production opportunities that could have arisen from the Rafale deal. The three companies were Bharat Electronics, Noida-based Samtel and Reliance Defence Systems.
> 
> *According to sources, while Bharat Electronics and Samtel still may get a piece of the offset money, it is Reliance Defence that will execute a majority of the Rs. 30,000 crore that will flow in as a result of the Rafale deal.*
> http://thewire.in/70450/reliance-defence-wins-big-aftermath-rafale-deal/
> ++++
> 
> September 26
> View attachment 340196
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-383#post-8730988
> 
> September 2
> View attachment 340198
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-308#post-8642154
> 
> +++
> Bulls eye ...
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others





*Rafale deal: Reliance, Dassault Aviation set up joint venture*


://www.deccanchronicle.com/business/in-other-news/031016/rafale-deal-reliance-dassault-aviation-set-up-joint-venture.html

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## PARIKRAMA

According to the release, the proposed strategic partnership will also focus on promoting Research and development projects under the IDDM program (Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured), a new initiative of India’s Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar. This new JV will support Prime Minister Modi’s “Make in India” and “Skill India” policies and develop major Indian programs with high levels of technology transfer to benefit the entire aerospace sector, the release added.

Commenting on the JV, Anil Ambani, chairman of Reliance Group said, “*This is a transformational moment for the Indian Aerospace sector and for Reliance Infrastructure’s subsidiary Reliance Aerospace.” “We are delighted to partner a world leader in aviation like Dassault Aviation, and a visionary leader like Eric Trappier,” he said.*

*Eric Trappier, Dassault Aviation Chairman & CEO said, “The formation of this Joint venture with Reliance Aerospace led by Anil Ambani’s Reliance Group illustrates our strong commitment to establish ourselves in India and to develop strategic industrial partnerships under the “Make in India” policy promoted by the Indian Government.”*

http://www.financialexpress.com/ind...-fighter-jet-iaf-make-in-india-offset/402719/



A big step for MII hurdle also cleared..
Now component level facility will be up..
Next would be assembling and sub assembling level work and creation of the ecosystem with skills
Then should be the ability to do CKD/SKD based assembling...
Looks like Raffy from Indian plant is not very far away judging by the plan and its progress..
We should see some progress in Indian Rafale order as well may be in next 1 year...

@Skull and Bones - Your post got answered.. Looks like MII plan is now in action surely

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## halloweene

In fact i have a very completely hand written commented SITAC photo (we used a photo from a Vianney article), but i'm not home, and far from beloved files.... (in fact i'm closer to india atm than home). Will try to process while back home.

edit : late answering to request.

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## PARIKRAMA

halloweene said:


> In fact i have a very completely hand written commented SITAC photo (we used a photo from a Vianney article), but i'm not home, and far from beloved files.... (in fact i'm closer to india atm than home). Will try to process while back home.
> 
> edit : late answering to request.


We all will eagerly wait for that !!!

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## Agent_47

PARIKRAMA said:


> According to the release, the proposed strategic partnership will also focus on promoting Research and development projects under the IDDM program (Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured), a new initiative of India’s Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar. This new JV will support Prime Minister Modi’s “Make in India” and “Skill India” policies and develop major Indian programs with high levels of technology transfer to benefit the entire aerospace sector, the release added.
> 
> Commenting on the JV, Anil Ambani, chairman of Reliance Group said, “*This is a transformational moment for the Indian Aerospace sector and for Reliance Infrastructure’s subsidiary Reliance Aerospace.” “We are delighted to partner a world leader in aviation like Dassault Aviation, and a visionary leader like Eric Trappier,” he said.*
> 
> *Eric Trappier, Dassault Aviation Chairman & CEO said, “The formation of this Joint venture with Reliance Aerospace led by Anil Ambani’s Reliance Group illustrates our strong commitment to establish ourselves in India and to develop strategic industrial partnerships under the “Make in India” policy promoted by the Indian Government.”*
> 
> http://www.financialexpress.com/ind...-fighter-jet-iaf-make-in-india-offset/402719/
> 
> 
> 
> A big step for MII hurdle also cleared..
> Now component level facility will be up..
> Next would be assembling and sub assembling level work and creation of the ecosystem with skills
> Then should be the ability to do CKD/SKD based assembling...
> Looks like Raffy from Indian plant is not very far away judging by the plan and its progress..
> We should see some progress in Indian Rafale order as well may be in next 1 year...
> 
> @Skull and Bones - Your post got answered.. Looks like MII plan is now in action surely


Left and liberals will start making up stories with this Reliance link.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Reliance ties up with Dassault to execute Rafale offsets*

*"This is the largest offset contract to be executed by any defence company in India till date," Reliance said.*
Dassault Aviation of France has entered into a partnership with Reliance group to execute offsets for the recently concluded deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets.

The joint venture called “Dassault Reliance Aerospace” was jointly announced by Dassault Aviation Chairman & CEO Eric Trappier and Reliance Group Chairman Anil Dhirubhai Ambani.

“This is the largest offset contract to be executed by any defence company in India till date,” Reliance said in a statement on Monday as the contract value is estimated up to Rs. 30,000 crore.

“The proposed strategic partnership between Dassault and Reliance will also focus on promoting research and development projects under the IDDM program (Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured)…,” the statement added, referring to the new provision introduced in the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2016.

Last month, India and France signed an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) for 36 Rafale multi-role jets in fly-away condition worth €7.87 billion or about Rs. 59,000 crore. The deal has a 50 per cent offset clause to be executed by Dassault and its partners in India.

*Industry sources said that the JV will focus on aero structures, electronics and engines and intends to infrastructure and supply chain in India for the aerospace sector.

A huge integrated facility is proposed to be set up at Reliance Special Economic Zone (SEZ) in Nagpur. Work is expected to begin in the next couple of months and production intended to begin within 12 months, sources told The Hindu.

“The offsets are only for seven years but the JV will be part of the global supply chain of Rafale jets to support the larger program,” one industry observer noted.

Given the scale of the contract, the JV will partner with 100 odd Micro, Small and Medium Enterprises (MSMEs) for sourcing and contracting.*

The government expects the offsets to bring in much needed expertise to build the domestic defence and aerospace industry.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...-to-execute-rafale-offsets/article9179906.ece

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## surya kiran

GuardianRED said:


> NOTE : Is this the same reliance with the Ship yard? ... They are winning quite a few contracts



Part of Reliance Infra. ADAG

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## Trying to be honest

Frankly don't like the the selection of ADAG group. They are one bunch of inefficient guys and also have loads of chinese loans on their other businesses. Risk of compromise is high.

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## PARIKRAMA

Trying to be honest said:


> Frankly don't like the the selection of ADAG group. They are one bunch of inefficient guys and also have loads of chinese loans on their other businesses. Risk of compromise is high.


I agree financial position wise they are not at all a sound group.. I would always advocate a better name like Tata or even L&T. Perhaps choice lies from the aspect that DA can control ADAG group company much better than may be other entities like L&T (already involved with GOI) and Tata (Big name and also US ventures).

I remember in due diligence i hav said before DA asked details on this aspect








https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-301#post-8593571

Thats why i guess Samtel and Bharat Electronics are also there as part of this deal.. But still I am interested really to understand what Anil Ambani may have given as guarantee to get the backing from financial positioning purposes. The group has way too much exposure in industries which have long gestation cycles, thin margins and humongous debt which will require refinancing at some point of time surely.

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## [Bregs]

This is the biggest naive mistake on part of Dassault to tie up with bankrupt and corrupt ADAG which also has 0 experience and knowledge of defense industry. This tie up might increase political temp and there might be allegations too in future

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> I agree financial position wise they are not at all a sound group.. I would always advocate a better name like Tata or even L&T. Perhaps choice lies from the aspect that DA can control ADAG group company much better than may be other entities like L&T (already involved with GOI) and Tata (Big name and also US ventures).
> 
> I remember in due diligence i hav said before DA asked details on this aspect
> 
> 
> View attachment 340219
> 
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-301#post-8593571
> 
> Thats why i guess Samtel and Bharat Electronics are also there as part of this deal.. But still I am interested really to understand what Anil Ambani may have given as guarantee to get the backing from financial positioning purposes. The group has way too much exposure in industries which have long gestation cycles, thin margins and humongous debt which will require refinancing at some point of time surely.


Foresight tell us , that it is a possibility that every private player is getting a piece of a pie in defence. The old players ie TATA will be getting the C295, Mahindra possible with the panther ie the Navy contract and Now Reliance getting this.

Honestly, as long as the contracts are signed with delivery and quality in check. I really don't care who gets it!

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## jha

A tie-up with ADAG has made MII difficult. Wonder why did not Dassault go with L&T or, TATAs..

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## BON PLAN

Skull and Bones said:


> My only question is, are we going to make Rafales inhouse?


We hope so.
And I think it will arrived soon.

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## monitor

* Anil A Reliance, French Dassault JV To Execute $3.3 Billion Rafale Offsets Contract *

Part of 50 per cent offset obligation
















Indian Reliance Group and Dassault Aviation have announced a joint venture (JV) to execute $3.3 billion worth offset contract as part of the Rafale fighter jet deal.

The announcement of the JV, Dassault Reliance Aerospace, comes within days of India and France on September 23 signing an agreement for 36 Rafale fighter jets at a value of euro 7.87 billion.
The agreement includes a 50 per cent offset obligation. The main point of the offset agreement is 74 per cent of it has to be imported from India, which means direct business worth around Rs 22,000 crore ($3.3 billion).

The offset, spread over seven years, will be finalised soon. There is also a technology-sharing component, which is being discussed with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). Other companies involved in the Rafale deal include French firms MBDA and Thales, besides Safran, which too will be part of the overall offset obligation.

The Dassault Reliance Aerospace joint venture will be a key player in the execution of offset obligations, a joint statement by the companies said Monday.

The development has come as a boost to the Reliance Group, which entered the defense sector only in January 2015.

The proposed strategic partnership between Dassault and Reliance will also focus on promoting research and development projects under the IDDM programme (Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured).

"The formation of this joint venture with Reliance Aerospace led by Anil Ambani's Reliance Group illustrates our strong commitment to establish ourselves in India and develop strategic industrial partnerships under the Make in India policy promoted by the Indian government," Eric Trappier, Dassault Aviation Chairman and CEO said.


You might also like:

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## sathya

Even though I felt happy because of Rafale, Reliance -Anil Ambani doesn't make make me any feel good.. 

Hope government is strong enough to put enough check points in place.

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## #hydra#

Almost entire nation is actually against reliance Gp.

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## [Bregs]

#hydra# said:


> Almost entire nation is actually against reliance Gp.




Both brothers have looted investors slowly after demise of there father, so how would an average indian is going to gave faith and trust in this group

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## Trying to be honest

My concern is largely with the chinese loans. They can be easily arm twisted.

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## sathya

#hydra# said:


> Almost entire nation is actually against reliance Gp.



A company with zero experience given top most project.

Who won't be worried.

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## Abingdonboy

@PARIKRAMA won't comment on the RIL/MII speculation, I think it is far too early to be making links but it seems to be a step in the right direction (even though I am adverse to RIL's inclusion).

I would just like to discuss the past few pages regarding the delivery schedule. Many arguments for early delivery have centred around the fact that DA can theoretically step up production and thusspare capacity created for early Indian deliveries. However, if we think about this from a practical point of view, the production of the airframes is not the sole factor that will decide deliveries to India. We should not forget that as part of this deal €1.8BN is for Indian specific upgrades that include an as of yet untested/uncertified uprated engine and specific customer (India) nominated weapon/system integration work from third parties (BEL, RAFAEL, ELTA etc).

I'm sure the more informed members such as @Picdelamirand-oil , @halloweene , @BON PLAN , @Taygibay Etc can comment further about these sorts of things do not and cannot happen overnight. There are set procedures in place that will take their own course, no amount of wishes from the Indian side will change that.

It would be interesting to learn how the Rafale's industrial partners (Dassualt, Safran, Thales etc) have been preparing for the Indian contract (if they have) as clearly the Indian deal is far more complex and exhaustive than any other export deal thus far and will demand vastly more work, it isn't a case of a simple off the shelf delivery of the French standards. 

Furthermore, it's not as though the IAF will be ready to accept the Rafale overnight, they will take time to get their SQN personnel (pilots, ground handlers, munitions techs, maintainers etc etc) trained in entirely new systems and procedures not to mention to set up the requisite infrastructure to fly, service, support and operate such complex machinery. The Rafale isn't simply a "plug and play" system, the IAF will have to work very hard to integrate it into their force.

This takes even greater significance when one considers that this is not simply a typical commercial deal but a govt to govt agreement (IGA) with many strategic stipulations. For instance, the legally binding clause that holds the French liable to ensure at least 75% of India's Rafale fleet is available at any one time. The French aren't going to want to rush and make stokes that they are then culpable for later down the road.

I would like to get past the production aspect of the Rafale and delve a little deeper to understand the details that lay within the sale of such a system to an airforce. This is just as vital to consider.



PARIKRAMA said:


> *Interview of DM MP with CNBCTV18*
> 
> *CNBC-TV18* ‏@CNBCTV18Live  25m25 minutes ago
> RS22000 cr export opportunity via Rafale deal for Indian industry;10% of Rafale deal value is related to Tech transfer @manoharparrikar exl
> / [U


Discounting the traditional caveats when it comes to ToT (degree of and specifics) let's not let this tidbit go ignored. India is paying a 10% premium for "ToT"; is anyone seriously going to try and make the case now that the French have agreed to part with some of their Crown Jewels for "just" €800m and 36 jets? 

The dots are emerging slowly, it won't be too long before the media starts to connect them (well, it might actually, credible journalism is almost non-existent these days across the world).

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## BON PLAN

sathya said:


> A company with zero experience given top most project.
> 
> Who won't be worried.


Some time it's better to learn from zero....

Dassault will help them. After all, making the airframe is not the harder thing in a combat plane (comparing to radar, engine, self defense suite...), even if with composite and titanium superplastic forming it's not soo easy than 30 years ago.

And DA will put all the security locks, don't be afraid.

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## sathya

BON PLAN said:


> Some time it's better to learn from zero....
> Dassault will help them. And will put all the security locks, don't be afraid.




Hahaha you seem confident in Reliance ..
Even you shouldn't be.. They won't even blink before bypassing IPR .

But seriously only factor I do bank on is Dassault responsibility.

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## Abingdonboy

BON PLAN said:


> Some time it's better to learn from zero....
> Dassault will help them. And will put all the security locks, don't be afraid.


I think this is a fair point. DA will be the senior partner hand holding RIL all the way who will be starting from scratch and implementing best practices from day one (effectively replicating DA's existing production line). All RIL has to do is provide the funds and work force (an obvious oversimplification but still). 

HAL was never going to accept the junior partner role, TATA is tied up with many American firms and L&T are perhaps more interested in the LCA so RIL may have been DA's only option. 

For whatever reason DA and RIL have been looking to work together for a while (under the original MMRCA RIL were to make the wings for the Rafale and supply them to HAL). 

We may have doubts about RIL but I'm sure we can trust a giant like DA who themselves are putting themselves on the line and surely won't enter into agreements with a partner they can't trust to be successful when billions are on the line.



sathya said:


> .
> 
> But seriously only factor I do bank on is Dassault responsibility.


Indeed and this is what will (hopefully) ensure success. Under the agreement DA will ne liable for the Rafale's made in India, under the MMRCA DA were bound by the same clause but refused to do so on behalf of work done by HAL.

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## Gessler

Thank god this deal was concluded in my lifetime.

Now let me just see IAF inducting it's first Rafale. Then I can die in peace.

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## #hydra#

[Bregs] said:


> Both brothers have looted investors slowly after demise of there father, so how would an average indian is going to gave faith and trust in this group


I know man,I hate that company a lot.... Slowly they are eating public's money ..

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## punit

Agent_47 said:


> Left and liberals will start making up stories with this Reliance link.


they already are !



#hydra# said:


> Almost entire nation is actually against reliance Gp.


the lines outside Reliance Jio Stores tells otherwise !!


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## randomradio

Gessler said:


> Then I can die in peace.



Your life will actually be taking off then.

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## surya kiran

@Abingdonboy its not RIL. RIL is Mukesh Ambani. This is ADAG, Anil Ambani.

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## [Bregs]

surya kiran said:


> @Abingdonboy its not RIL. RIL is Mukesh Ambani. This is ADAG, Anil Ambani.



It would have been much better if RIL had entered into defence arena as they have far deeper pockets and are in fact cash rich. ADAG is not fito to be into such a critical sector

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## surya kiran

[Bregs] said:


> It would have been much better if RIL had entered into defence arena as they have far deeper pockets and are in fact cash rich. ADAG is not fito to be into such a critical sector



They will not. You will see them restructure some stuff, over the next 5 years, off to BP and concentrate on Telecom and Retail, while retaining their core business. Even if they do get into defence, it will be due to request from the government and a side play. Not a core focus area.

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## ranadd

I see ADAG getting into it as a good sign. One of their focus was telecom. Which will get diluted soon to Jio. They are trying to bet into Heavy Engineering. Perhaps they are trying to create a portfolio similar to L&T.

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## ashok321

*India buys Rafales and now Pakistan has to catch up*

http://atimes.com/2016/10/india-buys-rafales-and-now-pakistan-has-to-catch-up/


France’s recent arms sale to India is not in itself a game changer in South Asia’s balance of power, but, coupled with the United States’ decision to cut military assistance to Pakistan (Delhi’s arch rival), it is doomed to produce some aftershocks in the region’s defense dynamics.







A Rafale fighter jet performs during the Aero India air show at Yelahanka air base in Bengaluru, India, February 18, 2015. REUTERS/Abhishek N. Chinnappa/File Photo

India secured 36 Rafale multi-role fighters from France’s aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation; an $8.8 billion deal was signed by French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian and his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar on September 23, after almost 18 months of quarrels over the contract terms. The first delivery is expected by September 2019 and all jet fighters will be at disposal of the Indian Air Force (IAF) within six years. It took 16 years for an Indian government to fulfil the commitment to reinforcing the national air force with new generation fighters.

The new arms sale arrangement highlights a breakthrough in the Indo-French defense relationships. Apart from Delhi-Paris joint cooperation to manufacture six Scorpene submarines, from 2000 to 2015 France provided India with military items worth $715 million, as opposed to $966 million in military goods that Pakistan bought from French defense producers. It is worth saying that between 2011 and 2015, Islamabad received only $24 million in military-related supplies from France, the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) reports, signaling a shift in the French defense manufacturers’ business opportunities from Islamabad to Delhi.

*A valuable asset against Pakistan?*

The nuclear-capable Rafale can mount 150-km range Meteor air-to-air missiles and 300-km Scalp air-to-ground cruise missiles. Some Indian observers view Rafale’s capabilities as a combat advantage over Pakistan’s F-16 jets, at a time when tensions between Delhi and Islamabad over the disputed Himalayan territory of Kashmir have again reached boiling point as a result of the armed raid on the Indian military outpost in Uri on September 18 and the subsequent “surgical strikes’ by the Indian armed forces on terrorist launch pads across the line of control in Azad Kashmir.

Currently, India’s air force can deploy in large part outdated Russian-built Sukhoi 30-MKI fighters to challenge superior Pakistani F-16s.

Rafale fighter jets will be modified to meet specific Indian demands. As part of the deal, Dassault will provide a weapons package and reinvest 50% of the value of the contract in India, with the participation of indigenous enterprises. Still, the French aviation company is ready to produce Rafales in India in the event Delhi makes a bigger order, declaring that it is committed to Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s “Make in India” project, designed to turn the country into a global manufacturing hub.

*Filling the gap*

Due to the high costs, Rafales’ acquisition has drawn a great deal of criticism in India. Modi’s government has so far rebutted the argument, underlining that it sealed a better agreement than the one the previous United Progressive Alliance (UPA) cabinet had tried to conclude.

Immediately after the announcement of the purchase, the Indian National Congress leadership blasted Modi and his Bharatiya Janata Party. The Indian major opposition force contends that 36 Rafale fighter jets do not serve IAF’s operational needs and that, during its tenure, the Congress-led ruling UPA coalition worked to buy 126 omni-role fighters (including relative technology), the minimum number for IAF’s requirements.

The IAF would need 42 fighter squadrons to counter threats from Pakistan and China, according to Congress top brass and former Defense minister AK Antony. In his estimate, Delhi’s air force has now only 32 squadrons up and running and, without new inductions, they will drop to 25 by 2022. By and large, Antony’s figures match those of many military analysts – 42 to 45 squadrons of fighters as an optimal level and 32 to 33 the current Indian fleet’s size.

*Pakistan lags behind*

In the past months, the Pakistani government has stressed that its air force would have to retire 190 planes by 2020. That will prompt Islamabad to buy new fighters, if it wants to maintain the current level of 350 to 400 aircraft and try to catch up with India’s fresh acquisitions.

The US Senate blocked a deal for eight F-16 Block-52 fighter aircraft with Pakistan in May and refused $300 million in defense aid to Islamabad in August. Many congressmen in Capitol Hill think that Islamabad is an unreliable ally in the war against terrorist organizations operating on the Pakistani soil and in Afghanistan.

Without the US-made F-16s, and in general with reduced political and financial cover from Washington, Pakistan will have to turn either to Russia for its Sukhoi Su-35 or to China for its J-20 stealth fighter (which is still under development) and Chengdu J-10 to modernize its jets fleet with fifth generation aircraft; unless logistical and financial hurdles push the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) to veer to fighters of inferior caliber, like it already did with the procurement of used F-16s from Jordan in the past.

France is yet another option for the PAF, but it remains to be seen whether, in the presence of a relative tender or request from Islamabad, Paris wants to incur Delhi’s inevitable displeasure and thus jeopardize potential military agreements with the Indians that are already in the offing, not least possible new orders of Rafales for the IAF.


*Rafale deal: Reliance, Dassault Aviation set up joint venture*

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## raj76

ashok321 said:


> *India buys Rafales and now Pakistan has to catch up*
> 
> http://atimes.com/2016/10/india-buys-rafales-and-now-pakistan-has-to-catch-up/
> 
> 
> France’s recent arms sale to India is not in itself a game changer in South Asia’s balance of power, but, coupled with the United States’ decision to cut military assistance to Pakistan (Delhi’s arch rival), it is doomed to produce some aftershocks in the region’s defense dynamics.
> 
> View attachment 340377
> 
> 
> A Rafale fighter jet performs during the Aero India air show at Yelahanka air base in Bengaluru, India, February 18, 2015. REUTERS/Abhishek N. Chinnappa/File Photo
> 
> India secured 36 Rafale multi-role fighters from France’s aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation; an $8.8 billion deal was signed by French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian and his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar on September 23, after almost 18 months of quarrels over the contract terms. The first delivery is expected by September 2019 and all jet fighters will be at disposal of the Indian Air Force (IAF) within six years. It took 16 years for an Indian government to fulfil the commitment to reinforcing the national air force with new generation fighters.
> 
> The new arms sale arrangement highlights a breakthrough in the Indo-French defense relationships. Apart from Delhi-Paris joint cooperation to manufacture six Scorpene submarines, from 2000 to 2015 France provided India with military items worth $715 million, as opposed to $966 million in military goods that Pakistan bought from French defense producers. It is worth saying that between 2011 and 2015, Islamabad received only $24 million in military-related supplies from France, the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) reports, signaling a shift in the French defense manufacturers’ business opportunities from Islamabad to Delhi.
> 
> *A valuable asset against Pakistan?*
> 
> The nuclear-capable Rafale can mount 150-km range Meteor air-to-air missiles and 300-km Scalp air-to-ground cruise missiles. Some Indian observers view Rafale’s capabilities as a combat advantage over Pakistan’s F-16 jets, at a time when tensions between Delhi and Islamabad over the disputed Himalayan territory of Kashmir have again reached boiling point as a result of the armed raid on the Indian military outpost in Uri on September 18 and the subsequent “surgical strikes’ by the Indian armed forces on terrorist launch pads across the line of control in Azad Kashmir.
> 
> Currently, India’s air force can deploy in large part outdated Russian-built Sukhoi 30-MKI fighters to challenge superior Pakistani F-16s.
> 
> Rafale fighter jets will be modified to meet specific Indian demands. As part of the deal, Dassault will provide a weapons package and reinvest 50% of the value of the contract in India, with the participation of indigenous enterprises. Still, the French aviation company is ready to produce Rafales in India in the event Delhi makes a bigger order, declaring that it is committed to Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s “Make in India” project, designed to turn the country into a global manufacturing hub.
> 
> *Filling the gap*
> 
> Due to the high costs, Rafales’ acquisition has drawn a great deal of criticism in India. Modi’s government has so far rebutted the argument, underlining that it sealed a better agreement than the one the previous United Progressive Alliance (UPA) cabinet had tried to conclude.
> 
> Immediately after the announcement of the purchase, the Indian National Congress leadership blasted Modi and his Bharatiya Janata Party. The Indian major opposition force contends that 36 Rafale fighter jets do not serve IAF’s operational needs and that, during its tenure, the Congress-led ruling UPA coalition worked to buy 126 omni-role fighters (including relative technology), the minimum number for IAF’s requirements.
> 
> The IAF would need 42 fighter squadrons to counter threats from Pakistan and China, according to Congress top brass and former Defense minister AK Antony. In his estimate, Delhi’s air force has now only 32 squadrons up and running and, without new inductions, they will drop to 25 by 2022. By and large, Antony’s figures match those of many military analysts – 42 to 45 squadrons of fighters as an optimal level and 32 to 33 the current Indian fleet’s size.
> 
> *Pakistan lags behind*
> 
> In the past months, the Pakistani government has stressed that its air force would have to retire 190 planes by 2020. That will prompt Islamabad to buy new fighters, if it wants to maintain the current level of 350 to 400 aircraft and try to catch up with India’s fresh acquisitions.
> 
> The US Senate blocked a deal for eight F-16 Block-52 fighter aircraft with Pakistan in May and refused $300 million in defense aid to Islamabad in August. Many congressmen in Capitol Hill think that Islamabad is an unreliable ally in the war against terrorist organizations operating on the Pakistani soil and in Afghanistan.
> 
> Without the US-made F-16s, and in general with reduced political and financial cover from Washington, Pakistan will have to turn either to Russia for its Sukhoi Su-35 or to China for its J-20 stealth fighter (which is still under development) and Chengdu J-10 to modernize its jets fleet with fifth generation aircraft; unless logistical and financial hurdles push the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) to veer to fighters of inferior caliber, like it already did with the procurement of used F-16s from Jordan in the past.
> 
> France is yet another option for the PAF, but it remains to be seen whether, in the presence of a relative tender or request from Islamabad, Paris wants to incur Delhi’s inevitable displeasure and thus jeopardize potential military agreements with the Indians that are already in the offing, not least possible new orders of Rafales for the IAF.
> 
> 
> *Rafale deal: Reliance, Dassault Aviation set up joint venture*


congratz for bringing trolls in a smooth going thread

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## ashok321

raj76 said:


> congratz for bringing trolls in a smooth going thread



If you can not handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen!

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## noksss

The ADAG- Dassault partnership is giving me the same level of sadness when a terrorist attack happens in our country. Apart from the opposition trying to politicize this the whole reliance industry sucks a big time when it comes to Integrity ,Ethics these morons wont give a shit about the country and would even sell some critical technologies in exchange of some $$$ .It is in India's interest to not involve these unethical ambani's in such a critical project which has a direct impact on our national security .All my happiness regarding this project is down bcoz of this news

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## punit

noksss said:


> The ADAG- Dassault partnership is giving me the same level of sadness when a terrorist attack happens in our country. Apart from the opposition trying to politicize this the whole reliance industry sucks a big time when it comes to Integrity ,Ethics these morons wont give a shit about the country and would even sell some critical technologies in exchange of some $$$ .It is in India's interest to not involve these unethical ambani's in such a critical project which has a direct impact on our national security .All my happiness regarding this project is down bcoz of this news


reliance is a reality. just because we dont like some one /thing does not mean that they will stop existing.

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## raj76

ashok321 said:


> If you can not handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen!


yea i will but dont turn a good study into kitchen (u missed the real message there are enough kitchens in this forum but why turn this into 1)


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## noksss

punit said:


> reliance is a reality. just because we dont like some one /thing does not mean that they will stop existing.



Offcourse its a reality I am all for reliance doing their work in Telecom,retail,oil,gas,power and all sorts of thing I am just against giving such a critical project which has direct impact to national security to an unethical company . If TATA,L&T is busy why not give it to Godrej considering their long time involvement with space program I am sure they too fit into someone whom the dassault can have full control

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## punit

noksss said:


> Offcourse its a reality I am all for reliance doing their work in Telecom,retail,oil,gas,power and all sorts of thing I am just against giving such a critical project which has direct impact to national security to an unethical company . If TATA,L&T is busy why not give it to Godrej considering their long time involvement with space program I am sure they too fit into someone whom the dassault can have full control


ON WHICH CRITERIA U WILL reject Reliance proposal? . they are among the biggest company in India. Oil, Gas and Power are equally essential to national security.

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## BON PLAN

*Any Air Force will be proud to have Rafale-class fighter jet: IAF chief Arup Raha*
*Giving a thumbs up to the recently signed Rafale deal, Indian Air Force chief Arup Raha has said that he would like to have more such fighter jets in the IAF.*
By: FE Online | Published: October 4, 2016 1:08 PM
http://www.financialexpress.com/ind...-chief-arup-raha/404775/#.V_N9OuICDdg.twitter

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## [Bregs]

BON PLAN said:


> *Any Air Force will be proud to have Rafale-class fighter jet: IAF chief Arup Raha*
> *Giving a thumbs up to the recently signed Rafale deal, Indian Air Force chief Arup Raha has said that he would like to have more such fighter jets in the IAF.*
> By: FE Online | Published: October 4, 2016 1:08 PM
> http://www.financialexpress.com/ind...-chief-arup-raha/404775/#.V_N9OuICDdg.twitter




This deal for 36+18 fighters is done and sealed. Now waiting for MII for the Rafale

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## BON PLAN

RPK said:


> http://www.financialexpress.com/eco...ints-at-early-arrival-of-fighter-jets/401145/
> 
> *Rafale deal: Manohar Parrikar hints at early arrival of fighter jets*


He takes 9 to 12 months more than needed to firm, and now he want an urgent delivery ! 

But a customer is always right .....



Gessler said:


> Thank god this deal was concluded in my lifetime.
> 
> Now let me just see IAF inducting it's first Rafale. Then I can die in peace.


take some more years pleaaaaase !



[Bregs] said:


> This deal for 36+18 fighters is done and sealed. Now waiting for MII for the Rafale


No clear indication about the 18 ...... or do you have some source?

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## [Bregs]

BON PLAN said:


> *No clear indication about the 18 ...... or do you have some source?*



Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian, signed the aircraft deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) 17 months after the procurement was announced in Paris in April 2015. *The IGA includes the option for 18 supplementary fighters at the same price, taking a flat 3.5% inflation rate into account.*

http://www.janes.com/article/64054/india-finally-signs-deal-with-france-for-36-rafale-fighters

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## BON PLAN

[Bregs] said:


> Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian, signed the aircraft deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) 17 months after the procurement was announced in Paris in April 2015. *The IGA includes the option for 18 supplementary fighters at the same price, taking a flat 3.5% inflation rate into account.*
> 
> http://www.janes.com/article/64054/india-finally-signs-deal-with-france-for-36-rafale-fighters


OK ! good news.

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## #hydra#

BON PLAN said:


> *Any Air Force will be proud to have Rafale-class fighter jet: IAF chief Arup Raha*
> *Giving a thumbs up to the recently signed Rafale deal, Indian Air Force chief Arup Raha has said that he would like to have more such fighter jets in the IAF.*
> By: FE Online | Published: October 4, 2016 1:08 PM
> http://www.financialexpress.com/ind...-chief-arup-raha/404775/#.V_N9OuICDdg.twitter


Use "some kind of security" instead of proud,that's the apt word for IAF.
Proud moments is for those who designed, developed and produced.

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## halloweene

PARIKRAMA said:


> We all will eagerly wait for that !!!


Ok. remind me in a few days.

Incidentally. There IS an option (source, you know, close to the file...)

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## CNL-PN-AA

*Special team for Rafale readies ground work, to visit France*

Chethan Kumar | TNN | Updated: Oct 4, 2016, 09.39 PM IST

BENGALURU: Indian Air Force's (IAF) elite test pilots are preparing the groundwork for constituting a project management team that will soon travel to France and work with Dassault in customising the aircraft for India's operational needs. India signed a Rs 60,000 crore deal with Dassault to procure 36 fighters under the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) programme recently.

The team will be constituted at the Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) headquartered in Bengaluru, its commandant Air Vice Marshal Sandeep Singh confirmed to TOI.

It was ASTE which did the field trials for all six contenders—Lockheed Martin's F-16; Boeing's F/A-18 E/F; European Eurofighter Typhoon; the Swedish Gripen; the French Dassault's Rafale and the Russian Mig-35.

Out of the six contenders only the Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale met all the 750 quality requirements, including weapon systems. ASTE clarified that they do not compare aircraft and that only clear them based on requirement and that the decision of picking one is made at a higher level.

Singh, explained that the team, once constituted will have pilots, engineers and air crew. "The size of the team will vary. For the Su-30MKI for example, we had a 10 member team," he said.

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## ashok321

*Special team for Rafale readies ground work, to visit France*
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...work-to-visit-France/articleshow/54681720.cms


*




*




BENGALURU: Indian Air Force's (IAF) elite test pilots are preparing the groundwork for constituting a project management team that will soon travel to France and work with Dassault in customising the aircraft for India's operational needs. India signed a Rs 60,000 crore deal with Dassault to procure 36 fighters under the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) programme recently.

The team will be constituted at the Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) headquartered in Bengaluru, its commandant Air Vice Marshal Sandeep Singh confirmed to TOI.

It was ASTE which did the field trials for all six contenders—Lockheed Martin's F-16; Boeing's F/A-18 E/F; European Eurofighter Typhoon; the Swedish Gripen; the French Dassault's Rafale and the Russian Mig-35.

Out of the six contenders only the Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale met all the 750 quality requirements, including weapon systems. ASTE clarified that they do not compare aircraft and that only clear them based on requirement and that the decision of picking one is made at a higher level.

Singh, explained that the team, once constituted will have pilots, engineers and air crew. "The size of the team will vary. For the Su-30MKI for example, we had a 10 member team," he said.

Given that the ASTE has already flown Rafale, a smaller team will be going to France. The advantage that this will give the IAF is that it will bring back a known platform, which its pilots understand.

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## Abingdonboy

CNL-PN-AA said:


> *Special team for Rafale readies ground work, to visit France*
> 
> Chethan Kumar | TNN | Updated: Oct 4, 2016, 09.39 PM IST
> 
> BENGALURU: Indian Air Force's (IAF) elite test pilots are preparing the groundwork for constituting a project management team that will soon travel to France and work with Dassault in customising the aircraft for India's operational needs. India signed a Rs 60,000 crore deal with Dassault to procure 36 fighters under the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) programme recently.
> 
> The team will be constituted at the Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) headquartered in Bengaluru, its commandant Air Vice Marshal Sandeep Singh confirmed to TOI.
> 
> It was ASTE which did the field trials for all six contenders—Lockheed Martin's F-16; Boeing's F/A-18 E/F; European Eurofighter Typhoon; the Swedish Gripen; the French Dassault's Rafale and the Russian Mig-35.
> 
> Out of the six contenders only the Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale met all the 750 quality requirements, including weapon systems. ASTE clarified that they do not compare aircraft and that only clear them based on requirement and that the decision of picking one is made at a higher level.
> 
> Singh, explained that the team, once constituted will have pilots, engineers and air crew. "The size of the team will vary. For the Su-30MKI for example, we had a 10 member team," he said.


The amount of knowledge ASTE build up must be immense and of real strategic value to the IAF as a whole. 

These are the guys that ensure every asset that enters IAF service is 100% what the IAF demands.

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## BON PLAN

CNL-PN-AA said:


> *Special team for Rafale readies ground work, to visit France*
> 
> Chethan Kumar | TNN | Updated: Oct 4, 2016, 09.39 PM IST
> 
> BENGALURU: Indian Air Force's (IAF) elite test pilots are preparing the groundwork for constituting a project management team that will soon travel to France and work with Dassault in customising the aircraft for India's operational needs. India signed a Rs 60,000 crore deal with Dassault to procure 36 fighters under the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) programme recently.
> 
> The team will be constituted at the Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) headquartered in Bengaluru, its commandant Air Vice Marshal Sandeep Singh confirmed to TOI.
> 
> It was ASTE which did the field trials for all six contenders—Lockheed Martin's F-16; Boeing's F/A-18 E/F; European Eurofighter Typhoon; the Swedish Gripen; the French Dassault's Rafale and the Russian Mig-35.
> 
> Out of the six contenders only the Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale met all the 750 quality requirements, including weapon systems. ASTE clarified that they do not compare aircraft and that only clear them based on requirement and that the decision of picking one is made at a higher level.
> 
> Singh, explained that the team, once constituted will have pilots, engineers and air crew. "The size of the team will vary. For the Su-30MKI for example, we had a 10 member team," he said.


Oh! Un petit nouveau sur ce forum ..... 
Bienvenue.

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## ashok321

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/10/05/inpk-o05.html

*France’s sale of Rafale jets to India stokes Indo-Pakistani war tensions*

France’s decision to sell 36 nuclear-capable Rafale fighters to India is a reckless act that is stoking the danger of war in South Asia and globally.

French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian and his Indian counterpart, Manohar Parrikar, signed the contract for the €7.75 billion (US $ 8.7 billion) Rafale deal in New Delhi on September 23 in the midst of a mounting war crisis between India and its arch-rival Pakistan.

This crisis has since escalated, with India carrying out military strikes inside Pakistan on the night of September 28-29 that it boasts inflicted “heavy casualties.” The strikes, the first India has publicly admitted to carrying out inside Pakistan in more than four decades, have pushed South Asia’s rival nuclear-armed states to the brink of war.

The Rafale deal is one of India’s largest-ever arms purchases and was the subject of protracted and at times testy negotiations between Paris and New Delhi stretching over several years. That said, it is all but certain that India’s Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) government decided to accelerate finalizing the deal, or at least its announcement and the formal contract signing, to send a bellicose message to Pakistan.

The Indian government announced the impending signing of the Rafale contracts on September 21 as it was elaborating plans with the military, intelligence services and diplomatic corps over how to “punish” Pakistan for the attack three days before on the military base at Uri, in Indian-held Kashmir.

Without so much as a cursory investigation, the BJP government blamed the Uri attack on Pakistan and vowed that it would avenge the 18 Indian soldiers who died in it.

The significance of the Rafale purchase was underscored by the subhead the_Indian Express_ gave to its article announcing the Sep tember 23 contract signing: “India is keen on inducting the Rafale fighter jets in the Indian Air Force for their strategic role to deliver nuclear weapons.”

*The fighter jet’s manufacturer, Dessault Aviation, markets it as being capable of carrying out a wide range of short and long-range missions, including ground and sea attacks, reconnaissance, high-accuracy strikes and—most significantly—nuclear strikes.*

For their part, Indian officials are openly boasting about the boost the induction of the Rafale fighters will provide to India’s nuclear strike capabilities against both Pakistan and China.

“The French Air Force, _L’Armee de l’Air_, is shifting from Mirages to Rafales for its nuclear strike role this year,” said an Indian defence official. “They have already started the process, and although our nuclear delivery systems are different from theirs, it does tell us that the Rafale is suited for that task.”

*Based on information fed it by the military, the Indian Express carried an article Monday titled “India’s Rafale deal is leaving China rattled: Here’s why.” The article noted that the Rafales India is purchasing will come equipped with “Beyond Visual Range Meteor Missiles.” This will al low them to shoot missiles at a 150 kilometer distance and without even entering enemy territory.*

In addition to meeting with his Indian counterpart, French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian spent an hour in discussion with Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi. At the conclusion of their talks, Le Drian hailed the arms deal as “an historic decision that opens a new chapter in our relations,” while Modi replied, “The partnership between France and India was advancing at a walking pace. Now it will proceed at the speed of a Rafale.”

*The agreement calls for India and France to collaborate closely in the construction of the fighter jets, but New Delhi apparently did not succeed in securing large-scale technology transfers.*

*Half of the deal’s value is in contracts for missiles and spare parts to keep the Rafale jets running for the next 40 years without any supply shortages. Safran, Thales, and other major French companies will participate in making key parts for the jets.*

The vast sums to be spent on fighter-bombers—that could deliver nuclear destruction to millions, even tens of millions, of people—are all the more obscene given the poverty facing broad masses of workers and rural toilers in India. UN statistics show that 270 million Indians, or roughly 22 percent of the country’s 1.2 billion population, lived below the official poverty line of $1.25 per day in 2012. Child labor involves tens of millions of Indian children, while Indian villages lack proper road and sanitary infrastructure and in some cases even electricity.

The signing of the Rafale deal is the product of mounting geostrategic tensions in Asia in the context of the US “Pivot to Asia,” which is aimed at strategically isolating and preparing for war against China.

Under Modi, India has integrated itself ever more deeply into the US military-strategic offensive against China, while seeking to assert itself as South Asia’s regional hegemon and a leading Indian Ocean power.

Modi’s government has made a series of provocative moves against Beijing. It has increased India’s military presence on its border with China, supported the US’ provocative campaign against China over the South China Sea, and in late August signed an agreement with Washington that allows the US military to use Indian bases for refueling, resupply, and relaxation.

This is now cutting across India’s ties with Russia, one of its most important and longstanding strategic partners and traditionally it principal weapons supplier. India and Russia, or before 1991 the Soviet Union, pursued broad military and commercial ties after the partition of the subcontinent in 1947, into rival communal bourgeois states, an explicitly Muslim Pakistan and a predominantly Hindu India.

During the Cold War, India signed a “treaty of friendship” with the Soviet Union in 1971 and depended on it for most of its planes and other advanced weaponry.

However, as India has aligned itself with US imperialism, Russia has moved into ever closer strategic alignment with China, as both countries are threatened with war by the United States—over Syria, Ukraine, the South China Sea, or other flashpoints. Under these conditions, India has become increasingly wary about relying on Russia as its principal source of high-tech weaponry, fearing it might suddenly become unavailable if a war erupted.

As has often happened in the past, France has sought to profit from such tensions and to sell arms by presenting itself as a more reliable military partner, more closely aligned with Indian interests.

*Much of the profits to be made from the Rafale deal will go to the principal shareholder of Dassault Aviation, Serge Dassault, whose fortune of €20 billion makes him France’s fifth-richest individual.*


----------



## [Bregs]

are yaar koi credible site ki news post kar liya karo , lol what socilaist web site my foot.

Rafale is going to be inducted after 3 yrs and its stroking war today in anticipation

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## BON PLAN

ashok321 said:


> Much of the profits to be made from the Rafale deal will go to the principal shareholder of Dassault Aviation, Serge Dassault, whose fortune of €20 billion makes him France’s fifth-richest individual.


And ?
Don't you think the shareholders of Lockeed Martin aren't in the same way ?

Dassault is a pure pricate company. And the mains shareholders are the Marcel Dassault family.
Technically and financially it's a nice adventure !

" Longue vie à la société Dassault "

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## Ankit Kumar 002

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

Not everyone is able to digest the Rafale deal. I have confirmed alert about atleast 2 leading news portals soon ( by this night ) coming with articles about India not likely to buy more Rafale due to high costs according to "" Government Official "", OR " NO more Rafales than the 36, at this moment as IAF wants a light aircraft ".

Remember me when within 24 hours you see it.

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## [Bregs]

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy
> 
> Not everyone is able to digest the Rafale deal. I have confirmed alert about atleast 2 leading news portals soon ( by this night ) coming with articles about India not likely to buy more Rafale due to high costs according to "" Government Official "".
> 
> Remember me when within 24 hours you see it.



Maximum heart burn this deal might caused to is America

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## Ankit Kumar 002

[Bregs] said:


> Maximum heart burn this deal might caused to is America



Equal burns to America , Sweden and Russia. 

Russia and America would be less fuming because they have some very important deals in works.

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## halloweene

The funny part is the usual chinese quibbling : they keep improving vastly their military ordnance, but if a neighbour do the same it is "provocative".

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## [Bregs]

halloweene said:


> The funny part is the usual chinese quibbling : they keep improving vastly their military ordnance, but if a neighbour do the same it is "provocative".



Spot on you are

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## Taygibay

Abingdonboy said:


> We should not forget that as part of this deal €1.8BN is for Indian specific upgrades that include an as of yet untested/uncertified uprated engine and specific customer (India) nominated weapon/system integration work from third parties (BEL, RAFAEL, ELTA etc).
> 
> I'm sure the more informed members such as @Picdelamirand-oil , @halloweene , @BON PLAN , @Taygibay Etc can comment further about these sorts of things do not and cannot happen overnight. There are set procedures in place that will take their own course, no amount of wishes from the Indian side will change that.


I said as much earlier, mate. The development of the engine is likely the longest lead.
Pods from Israel may not be so long and there's commonality with
the Qatari order. The HMDS depends on which. [ Fr. done / Foreign, longer ]
But yes, testing follows precise guidelines and procedures although cash
input can quicken it somewhat.



Abingdonboy said:


> as clearly the Indian deal is far more complex and exhaustive than any other export deal thus far and will demand vastly more work, it isn't a case of a simple off the shelf delivery of the French standards.


Yes and no. With the very first order, Dassault "learned" how to replace some equipment
such as comm links and the likes. With Qatar, it started working on new inclusions.
You could say that the Rafale production is transitioning out of single customer mode.
Plus, Dassault had the configuration since the talks began and it changed little recently ...
remember how DM MP said the last few months were on price negotiations only?



Abingdonboy said:


> The Rafale isn't simply a "plug and play" system, the IAF will have to work very hard to integrate it into their force.


Not really on two very different counts.
First, the Rafale itself is very plug and play and so is its maintenance organization.
Remember, an hour and a half exchange time for most sub-systems, + for the engine.
OSF, AESA-PESA, etc.
Second, as you mentioned, there is the standard development work that will prepare
the IAF via its ASTE tech team. An Indian could still be onboard for a validation flight
of the Meteor for example as these are not finished. And just as Qatar, you could request
a test bed sent to India soon ( next year ) for exploratory work.
Bases prep is probable the longest item in IAF control.



Abingdonboy said:


> RS22000 cr export opportunity via Rafale deal for Indian industry;10% of Rafale deal value is related to Tech transfer
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ssions-thread-2.230070/page-394#ixzz4MEGB0S48
> ... India is paying a 10% premium for "ToT"; is anyone seriously going to try and make the case now that the French have agreed to part with some of their Crown Jewels for "just" €800m and 36 jets?


Good indication unless related to adaptations.
Paying for ToT outright gives you max results.



BON PLAN said:


> Oh! Un petit nouveau sur ce forum .....


Sur ce forum seulement. / In this forum only.
Good thing that smiley was there ... 

And good day all, Tay.

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## mike2000 is back

BON PLAN said:


> And ?
> Don't you think the shareholders of Lockeed Martin aren't in the same way ?
> 
> Dassault is a pure pricate company. And the mains shareholders are the Marcel Dassault family.
> Technically and financially it's a nice adventure !
> 
> " Longue vie à la société Dassault "



Well said mon pote.

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## ashok321

*India Unlikely To Buy Additional Rafale Fighter Jets, MoD Source Says*

http://www.defensenews.com/articles...dditional-rafale-fighter-jets-mod-source-says


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## ejaz007

*India Unlikely To Buy Additional Rafale Fighter Jets, MoD Source Says*
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi, October 5, 2016 (Photo Credit: HESJA)

NEW DELHI — India is unlikely to acquire additional Rafale fighter jets because the Indian Air Force (IAF) is "fully satisfied" following the recently signed $8.8 billion deal to purchase 36 of the fighters, according to a source with the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD). 

"[N]o additional purchase is being contemplated," the MoD source said of the aircraft. 

The Sept. 23 contract between India and France has no optional clause for additional fighters, which would mean any additional purchases would have to be negotiated with a fresh price, the source added. 

However, Amit Cowshish, a former financial adviser for the MoD, said the "absence of [an] option[al] clause does not rule out the possibility of acquiring more of the same aircraft," adding that "even a separate contract can be negotiated at the same price."

"Indian Air Force just has 33 squadrons as against the felt need of 42 to 45 squadrons. This strength will go down further as 10-11 squadrons are scheduled to be phased out in the next few years. It is in this background that the possibility of new Rafale fighters aircraft assumes significance," Cowshish said. 

Although there could be a future need for more fighters, Cowshish said: "It seems unlikely that the entire requirement will be made up by acquiring Rafale aircraft, for had that been the intention India would not have gone in for acquisition of just two squadrons at this stage." 

At an Oct. 5 news conference here, Chief of the Air Staff of the Indian Air Force (IAF) Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha said: "Any air force would be proud to have aircraft of the Rafale class, which is in the mid-weight category." On the possibility of buying additional Rafale, Raha said: "A decision on more numbers of Rafale jets will be taken in the near future, which would be based on its capability." 

However, Vivek Rae, the MoD's former director general of acquisition, said that "given the depleted strength of IAF squadrons, it is clear that IAF will have to purchase more Rafale aircraft in [the] future. The quantum will depend on availability of funds." 

"The truncated Rafale deal is the direct outcome of budgetary constraints," Rae added. India had chose to buy only 36 Rafale after cancelling the program to acquire 126 Rafale 

IAF officials, however, say adding additional types of fighter aircraft to the fleet would not be as economical as purchasing additional Rafale jets. 

"It is obvious that the long-term, per-aircraft maintenance costs of a small fleet of aircraft will always be higher than for larger numbers, whether there are life cycle guarantees or otherwise," said Subhash 
Bhojwani, a retired IAF air marshal and defense analyst. 

IAF currently has seven aircraft types: Sukhoi Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21 and homemade Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. The Rafale will be the eighth type. 

"With no clear indication as of now that additional Rafale would be bought, a window is open wide for the acquisition of another type of fighter," another MoD source said. 

Daljit Singh, a retired IAF air marshal and defense analyst said: "IAF requirement was for 126 aircraft and that requirement still holds. Also, the defence minister has announced that the government would earmark one fighter by the end of the year that would be manufactured in India. Whether it would be Rafale or not is not clear as yet." 

http://www.defensenews.com/articles...dditional-rafale-fighter-jets-mod-source-says


----------



## Athen

ejaz007 said:


> *India Unlikely To Buy Additional Rafale Fighter Jets, MoD Source Says*
> By: Vivek Raghuvanshi, October 5, 2016 (Photo Credit: HESJA)
> 
> NEW DELHI — India is unlikely to acquire additional Rafale fighter jets because the Indian Air Force (IAF) is "fully satisfied" following the recently signed $8.8 billion deal to purchase 36 of the fighters, according to a source with the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD).
> 
> "[N]o additional purchase is being contemplated," the MoD source said of the aircraft.
> 
> The Sept. 23 contract between India and France has no optional clause for additional fighters, which would mean any additional purchases would have to be negotiated with a fresh price, the source added.
> 
> However, Amit Cowshish, a former financial adviser for the MoD, said the "absence of [an] option[al] clause does not rule out the possibility of acquiring more of the same aircraft," adding that "even a separate contract can be negotiated at the same price."
> 
> "Indian Air Force just has 33 squadrons as against the felt need of 42 to 45 squadrons. This strength will go down further as 10-11 squadrons are scheduled to be phased out in the next few years. It is in this background that the possibility of new Rafale fighters aircraft assumes significance," Cowshish said.
> 
> Although there could be a future need for more fighters, Cowshish said: "It seems unlikely that the entire requirement will be made up by acquiring Rafale aircraft, for had that been the intention India would not have gone in for acquisition of just two squadrons at this stage."
> 
> At an Oct. 5 news conference here, Chief of the Air Staff of the Indian Air Force (IAF) Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha said: "Any air force would be proud to have aircraft of the Rafale class, which is in the mid-weight category." On the possibility of buying additional Rafale, Raha said: "A decision on more numbers of Rafale jets will be taken in the near future, which would be based on its capability."
> 
> However, Vivek Rae, the MoD's former director general of acquisition, said that "given the depleted strength of IAF squadrons, it is clear that IAF will have to purchase more Rafale aircraft in [the] future. The quantum will depend on availability of funds."
> 
> "The truncated Rafale deal is the direct outcome of budgetary constraints," Rae added. India had chose to buy only 36 Rafale after cancelling the program to acquire 126 Rafale
> 
> IAF officials, however, say adding additional types of fighter aircraft to the fleet would not be as economical as purchasing additional Rafale jets.
> 
> "It is obvious that the long-term, per-aircraft maintenance costs of a small fleet of aircraft will always be higher than for larger numbers, whether there are life cycle guarantees or otherwise," said Subhash
> Bhojwani, a retired IAF air marshal and defense analyst.
> 
> IAF currently has seven aircraft types: Sukhoi Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21 and homemade Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. The Rafale will be the eighth type.
> 
> "With no clear indication as of now that additional Rafale would be bought, a window is open wide for the acquisition of another type of fighter," another MoD source said.
> 
> Daljit Singh, a retired IAF air marshal and defense analyst said: "IAF requirement was for 126 aircraft and that requirement still holds. Also, the defence minister has announced that the government would earmark one fighter by the end of the year that would be manufactured in India. Whether it would be Rafale or not is not clear as yet."
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/articles...dditional-rafale-fighter-jets-mod-source-says



[QUOTE="Ankit Kumar 002, post: 8775522, member: 175660"][USER=153263]@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

Not everyone is able to digest the Rafale deal. I have confirmed alert about atleast 2 leading news portals soon ( by this night ) coming with articles about India not likely to buy more Rafale due to high costs according to "" Government Official "", OR " NO more Rafales than the 36, at this moment as IAF wants a light aircraft ".

Remember me when within 24 hours you see it.[/QUOTE]
@Ankit Kumar 002
Seems you are right sir!![/USER]

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## GuardianRED

ejaz007 said:


> *India Unlikely To Buy Additional Rafale Fighter Jets, MoD Source Says*
> By: Vivek Raghuvanshi, October 5, 2016 (Photo Credit: HESJA)
> 
> NEW DELHI — India is unlikely to acquire additional Rafale fighter jets because the Indian Air Force (IAF) is "fully satisfied" following the recently signed $8.8 billion deal to purchase 36 of the fighters, according to a source with the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD).
> 
> "[N]o additional purchase is being contemplated," the MoD source said of the aircraft.
> 
> The Sept. 23 contract between India and France has no optional clause for additional fighters, which would mean any additional purchases would have to be negotiated with a fresh price, the source added.
> 
> However, Amit Cowshish, a former financial adviser for the MoD, said the "absence of [an] option[al] clause does not rule out the possibility of acquiring more of the same aircraft," adding that "even a separate contract can be negotiated at the same price."
> 
> "Indian Air Force just has 33 squadrons as against the felt need of 42 to 45 squadrons. This strength will go down further as 10-11 squadrons are scheduled to be phased out in the next few years. It is in this background that the possibility of new Rafale fighters aircraft assumes significance," Cowshish said.
> 
> Although there could be a future need for more fighters, Cowshish said: "It seems unlikely that the entire requirement will be made up by acquiring Rafale aircraft, for had that been the intention India would not have gone in for acquisition of just two squadrons at this stage."
> 
> At an Oct. 5 news conference here, Chief of the Air Staff of the Indian Air Force (IAF) Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha said: "Any air force would be proud to have aircraft of the Rafale class, which is in the mid-weight category." On the possibility of buying additional Rafale, Raha said: "A decision on more numbers of Rafale jets will be taken in the near future, which would be based on its capability."
> 
> However, Vivek Rae, the MoD's former director general of acquisition, said that "given the depleted strength of IAF squadrons, it is clear that IAF will have to purchase more Rafale aircraft in [the] future. The quantum will depend on availability of funds."
> 
> "The truncated Rafale deal is the direct outcome of budgetary constraints," Rae added. India had chose to buy only 36 Rafale after cancelling the program to acquire 126 Rafale
> 
> IAF officials, however, say adding additional types of fighter aircraft to the fleet would not be as economical as purchasing additional Rafale jets.
> 
> "It is obvious that the long-term, per-aircraft maintenance costs of a small fleet of aircraft will always be higher than for larger numbers, whether there are life cycle guarantees or otherwise," said Subhash
> Bhojwani, a retired IAF air marshal and defense analyst.
> 
> IAF currently has seven aircraft types: Sukhoi Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21 and homemade Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. The Rafale will be the eighth type.
> 
> "With no clear indication as of now that additional Rafale would be bought, a window is open wide for the acquisition of another type of fighter," another MoD source said.
> 
> Daljit Singh, a retired IAF air marshal and defense analyst said: "IAF requirement was for 126 aircraft and that requirement still holds. Also, the defence minister has announced that the government would earmark one fighter by the end of the year that would be manufactured in India. Whether it would be Rafale or not is not clear as yet."
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/articles...dditional-rafale-fighter-jets-mod-source-says


I truly like Sources - they are so fun !!! (and BS)

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## rockstarIN

surya kiran said:


> Part of Reliance Infra. ADAG



Not reliance defense?


----------



## Vergennes

@Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Louiq XIV @halloweene 

Please,N joy.

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## Taygibay

I had seen it already, mec but thanks nonetheless!

For PDF members, the above are quotes by commenters, blogs
and even news sources describing the Rafale as impossible to sell.
Some of those brilliant morons even suggested that the government
should pull the plug on the program as recently as days before Egypt
asked about it so less than 24 months ago ...

It may reassure Indians to know that we have logic-lacking clowns too?

Sigh out, Tay.

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## GuardianRED

Taygibay said:


> I had seen it already, mec but thanks nonetheless!
> 
> For PDF members, the above are quotes by commenters, blogs
> and even news sources describing the Rafale as impossible to sell.
> Some of those brilliant morons even suggested that the government
> should pull the plug on the program as recently as days before Egypt
> asked about it so less than 24 months ago ...
> 
> It may reassure Indians to know that we have logic-lacking clowns too?
> 
> Sigh out, Tay.


lol... every Post has the word
*
"invendable" -  unsaleable, unmarketable*

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## Abingdonboy

ejaz007 said:


> *India Unlikely To Buy Additional Rafale Fighter Jets, MoD Source Says*
> By: Vivek Raghuvanshi, October 5, 2016 (Photo Credit: HESJA)
> 
> NEW DELHI — India is unlikely to acquire additional Rafale fighter jets because the Indian Air Force (IAF) is "fully satisfied" following the recently signed $8.8 billion deal to purchase 36 of the fighters, according to a source with the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD).
> 
> "[N]o additional purchase is being contemplated," the MoD source said of the aircraft.
> 
> The Sept. 23 contract between India and France has no optional clause for additional fighters, which would mean any additional purchases would have to be negotiated with a fresh price, the source added.
> 
> However, Amit Cowshish, a former financial adviser for the MoD, said the "absence of [an] option[al] clause does not rule out the possibility of acquiring more of the same aircraft," adding that "even a separate contract can be negotiated at the same price."
> 
> "Indian Air Force just has 33 squadrons as against the felt need of 42 to 45 squadrons. This strength will go down further as 10-11 squadrons are scheduled to be phased out in the next few years. It is in this background that the possibility of new Rafale fighters aircraft assumes significance," Cowshish said.
> 
> Although there could be a future need for more fighters, Cowshish said: "It seems unlikely that the entire requirement will be made up by acquiring Rafale aircraft, for had that been the intention India would not have gone in for acquisition of just two squadrons at this stage."
> 
> At an Oct. 5 news conference here, Chief of the Air Staff of the Indian Air Force (IAF) Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha said: "Any air force would be proud to have aircraft of the Rafale class, which is in the mid-weight category." On the possibility of buying additional Rafale, Raha said: "A decision on more numbers of Rafale jets will be taken in the near future, which would be based on its capability."
> 
> However, Vivek Rae, the MoD's former director general of acquisition, said that "given the depleted strength of IAF squadrons, it is clear that IAF will have to purchase more Rafale aircraft in [the] future. The quantum will depend on availability of funds."
> 
> "The truncated Rafale deal is the direct outcome of budgetary constraints," Rae added. India had chose to buy only 36 Rafale after cancelling the program to acquire 126 Rafale
> 
> IAF officials, however, say adding additional types of fighter aircraft to the fleet would not be as economical as purchasing additional Rafale jets.
> 
> "It is obvious that the long-term, per-aircraft maintenance costs of a small fleet of aircraft will always be higher than for larger numbers, whether there are life cycle guarantees or otherwise," said Subhash
> Bhojwani, a retired IAF air marshal and defense analyst.
> 
> IAF currently has seven aircraft types: Sukhoi Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21 and homemade Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. The Rafale will be the eighth type.
> 
> "With no clear indication as of now that additional Rafale would be bought, a window is open wide for the acquisition of another type of fighter," another MoD source said.
> 
> Daljit Singh, a retired IAF air marshal and defense analyst said: "IAF requirement was for 126 aircraft and that requirement still holds. Also, the defence minister has announced that the government would earmark one fighter by the end of the year that would be manufactured in India. Whether it would be Rafale or not is not clear as yet."
> 
> http://www.defensenews.com/articles...dditional-rafale-fighter-jets-mod-source-says


The entire assertion of the article (no more Rafales) is entirely undermined by actual defence exports quoted thereafter and finally nailed in the last paragraph where it is clear nothing is set in stone so to be proclaiming no more Rafales is beyond asinine. 

As is all too typical for these propaganda pieces, the sole justification for their absurd assertions are not logic or any sensible argument but "unnamed sources". 

Not a word on why the GoI is paying a hefty €1.8 BILLION for Indian specific upgrades on the Rafale or why France is parting with ToT for just 36 birds. If one takes an objective look at the facts it is impossible to truly assert that more Rafales aren't a certainty. 


I guess these are the same unnamed sources that a few months were saying the Rafale would never be ordered by India, Spetember 23rd told a different story. . Now they have moved onto the MII element but will be just as incorrect in time.

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## mike2000 is back

Vergennes said:


> @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Louiq XIV @halloweene
> 
> Please,N joy.
> 
> View attachment 341085



Your people and journalists are better than ours believe me. If only you knew what they are saying about our weapons and their Sale to foreign countries.

@BON PLAN ,  , @Taygibay, @Vergennes .
il faut laisser parler les gens.






Il faut arriver à lâcher prise avec « le qu’en dira-t-on » car malgré tous les efforts que tu puisses faire, rien ne pourra arrêter les gens de parler, d’ébruiter des ragots, s’ils en ont envie.

Donc comme on dit souvent: le chien aboie la caravane passe.

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## Taygibay

mike2000 is back said:


> Donc comme on dit souvent: le chien aboie la caravane passe.



Ah? Je croyais que c'était : Les ciseaux à bois et la caravanne passe.

To non-French speaking PDF members, that's a play on words; untranslatable.

Great day all, Tay.

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## Hephaestus

BON PLAN said:


> " Longue vie à la société Dassault "



absolument


----------



## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> I had seen it already, mec but thanks nonetheless!
> 
> For PDF members, the above are quotes by commenters, blogs
> and even news sources describing the Rafale as impossible to sell.
> Some of those brilliant morons even suggested that the government
> should pull the plug on the program as recently as days before Egypt
> asked about it so less than 24 months ago ...
> 
> It may reassure Indians to know that we have logic-lacking clowns too?
> 
> Sigh out, Tay.



Most of the people who criticize the Rafale have no clue about fighter aircraft in general.


----------



## Tejasvinam

randomradio said:


> Most of the people who criticize the Rafale have no clue about fighter aircraft in general.



Isn't that true for anybody who criticises anything ? 

Not everybody is a an expert critic nor are they required to be one. Not even people who criticise politicians and vote. 

No need to place the object of any criticism on an Ivory Tower.

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## randomradio

Tejasvinam said:


> Isn't that true for anybody who criticises anything ?
> 
> Not everybody is a an expert critic nor are they required to be one. Not even people who criticise politicians and vote.
> 
> No need to place the object of any criticism on an Ivory Tower.



There is a difference between criticizing bad stuff and good stuff.

The bigger issue is some of these people have the power to put military deals on hold because they are influenced by such criticism. Like Sanjay Gandhi put a hold on the Jaguar procurement process because he 'thought' the Viggen was better. The IAF had to step in and allay his fears.

The Indian military's choices have to be put on an Ivory Tower regardless of whether it is bad or good, hence above criticism. History has given them that leeway.

Anyway, we digress. The point I was making was the Rafale is so good that it does not give any reason for criticism.

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## Tejasvinam

randomradio said:


> There is a difference between criticizing bad stuff and good stuff.
> 
> The bigger issue is some of these people have the power to put military deals on hold because they are influenced by such criticism. Like Sanjay Gandhi put a hold on the Jaguar procurement process because he 'thought' the Viggen was better. The IAF had to step in and allay his fears.
> 
> The Indian military's choices have to be put on an Ivory Tower regardless of whether it is bad or good, hence above criticism. History has given them that leeway.
> 
> Anyway, we digress. The point I was making was the Rafale is so good that it does not give any reason for criticism.



There is no 'good stuff' and 'bad stuff', that is like saying 'good terrorism' and 'bad terrorism'. Everything and everybody is open to criticism. 

The days of Nehru-gandhi monopoly and interference in Indian policy and process is long gone. India is now a mature democracy, not a fledgling democracy like in the past. 

Also Indian institutions are now firmly established and have undergone trial by fire during the 'Emergency' and has come out stronger for it. 

Finally about Rafale, since the requirement for the offset was 50% and so far there is only a clear roadmap and time line for 20% offset, there is much scope for criticism. There is a timeline for delivery of aircraft that is made public, but there is a mysterious silence on the documented road-map and TIMELINE for implementation of the offset. This again opens it up for strong criticism. 

Not to mention that the IAF requirement of 126 aircraft's is still to be firmly decided and is still open for consideration. 

So any and all criticism is fair in this case. You do not have to like it, but you have to accept it.


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## Taygibay

Tejasvinam said:


> So any and all criticism is fair in this case.



Shoot! Until that phrase, I thought you were the new guy with decent logic.
Oh well!

I'll still correct your other exaggerated claim though :


Tejasvinam said:


> Finally about Rafale, since the requirement for the offset was 50% and so far there is only a clear roadmap and time line for 20% offset, there is much scope for criticism.



Where did you get that impression from?
Around 3B € is the number for offsets. How is that 20% of the deal's worth?

Would you accept ANY AND ALL CRITICISM OF INDIA based on unsubstantiated claims?
Cuz I won't for the Rafale.

Good day and GL, Tay.

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## BON PLAN

Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy
> 
> Not everyone is able to digest the Rafale deal. I have confirmed alert about atleast 2 leading news portals soon ( by this night ) coming with articles about India not likely to buy more Rafale due to high costs according to "" Government Official "", OR " NO more Rafales than the 36, at this moment as IAF wants a light aircraft ".
> 
> Remember me when within 24 hours you see it.


seen !

Same sources explain us two weeks ago that India will never baught Rafale ......

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## Tejasvinam

Taygibay said:


> Shoot! Until that phrase, I thought you were the new guy with decent logic.
> Oh well!
> 
> I'll still correct your other exaggerated claim though :
> 
> Where did you get that impression from?
> Around 3B € is the number for offsets. How is that 20% of the deal's worth?
> 
> Would you accept ANY AND ALL CRITICISM OF INDIA based on unsubstantiated claims?
> Cuz I won't for the Rafale.
> 
> Good day and GL, Tay.



I am not seeking a character certificate from you, so spare us the drama. 

The deal size is 7.8 Billion Euro so 50% of that is 3.9 Billion €. 

Of course I expect financial jugglery to make it 3b € and ample 'reasons' will be provided no doubt. 

That is a cool 0.9 b € shaved off the offset already. 

Feel free to provide links that gives a clear RoadMap and TimeLines for how, when and where the offset is going to be implement. That should take care of the criticism, right ? I am waiting.


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## randomradio

Tejasvinam said:


> There is no 'good stuff' and 'bad stuff', that is like saying 'good terrorism' and 'bad terrorism'. Everything and everybody is open to criticism.
> 
> The days of Nehru-gandhi monopoly and interference in Indian policy and process is long gone. India is now a mature democracy, not a fledgling democracy like in the past.
> 
> Also Indian institutions are now firmly established and have undergone trial by fire during the 'Emergency' and has come out stronger for it.
> 
> Finally about Rafale, since the requirement for the offset was 50% and so far there is only a clear roadmap and time line for 20% offset, there is much scope for criticism. There is a timeline for delivery of aircraft that is made public, but there is a mysterious silence on the documented road-map and TIMELINE for implementation of the offset. This again opens it up for strong criticism.
> 
> Not to mention that the IAF requirement of 126 aircraft's is still to be firmly decided and is still open for consideration.
> 
> So any and all criticism is fair in this case. You do not have to like it, but you have to accept it.



"Most of the people who criticize the Rafale have no clue about fighter aircraft in general."

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## Tejasvinam

randomradio said:


> "Most of the people who criticize the Rafale have no clue about fighter aircraft in general."



...But they do have common sense. 

Nobody is an expert on anything, some just know more than others, some less. Most people just fake their expertise. That is just the way the world works.


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## randomradio

Tejasvinam said:


> Feel free to provide links that gives a clear RoadMap and TimeLines for how, when and where the offset is going to be implement. That should take care of the criticism, right ? I am waiting.



Who are you to ask that? If you are really interested then open a RTI to the MoD. They will reject it, but you are at least going through the correct process.

Rafale is way above criticism as far as the IAF is concerned, been that way since 2011.

And you are confused between Rafale and govt procedures. Just because the govt has zero interest in giving away information of national importance doesn't mean the decision can be criticized. The same with providing proof of surgical strikes. When the time comes, the govt will give us some limited information. That won't be to the satisfaction of all, but you'll have to live with it.

Also, Rafale has nothing to do with offsets or govt procedures.



Tejasvinam said:


> ...But they do have common sense.
> 
> Nobody is an expert on anything, some just know more than others, some less. Most people just fake their expertise. That is just the way the world works.



I don't think you understand, which is really not surprising. What I'm saying is if you have knowledge in aviation, you won't be able to find good enough reasons to criticize the Rafale.

So only the 'clueless' criticize Rafale, which I'm actually perfectly fine with because their opinions don't matter.

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## Tejasvinam

randomradio said:


> Who are you to ask that? If you are really interested then open a RTI to the MoD. They will reject it, but you are at least going through the correct process.
> 
> Rafale is way above criticism as far as the IAF is concerned, been that way since 2011.
> 
> And you are confused between Rafale and govt procedures. Just because the govt has zero interest in giving away information of national importance doesn't mean the decision can be criticized. The same with providing proof of surgical strikes. When the time comes, the govt will give us some limited information. That won't be to the satisfaction of all, but you'll have to live with it.
> 
> Also, Rafale has nothing to do with offsets or govt procedures.



I do not need unsolicited advice on how I should go around doing my business. That is just a cheap personal attack. 

IAF views on Rafale are quite well known since they have gone over and beyond the call of duty to articulate it. 

I refuse to see things in isolation like the IAF does. I refuse to be a frog in the well while disguising oneself as an 'expert' frog in the well. 

If Dassault is bothered about criticism then let them provide the roadMap and Time Line for offset implementation, or let them (and their supporters) forever hold their silence. 

If GoI has made claims about the surgical strike then it owns it to the people to provide proof too. Else they should have kept their mouth shut. You cannot have the cake and eat it too. 

I have no problem living with limited knowledge and criticism, but you and others do. Since Rafale is intimately tied to the Offset program of billions of $, they are accountable whether you like it or not. There is going to be questions and criticism raised and it would be naive to expect everyone to just fall down dead just because you don't like to hear the POV.



randomradio said:


> I don't think you understand, which is really not surprising. What I'm saying is if you have knowledge in aviation, you won't be able to find good enough reasons to criticize the Rafale.
> 
> So only the 'clueless' criticize Rafale, which I'm actually perfectly fine with because their opinions don't matter.



lol. PDF is full of self styled 'experts' so feel free to take their opinion and feel free to ignore the criticism too. 

The whole problem is when you cannot handle the criticism and want to play judge and jury as to who has the divine right to criticise and insist of giving certificates of 'expertise' that gives them right to criticise Rafale.


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## randomradio

Tejasvinam said:


> I do not need unsolicited advice on how I should go around doing my business. That is just a cheap personal attack.



So you want information, and when I provide the procedure to try and get said information, you don't want it. Make up your mind.



> I refuse to see things in isolation like the IAF does. I refuse to be a frog in the well while disguising oneself as an 'expert' frog in the well.



Unfortunately, you are a frog that's in the womb of a frog that lives in the well.



> If Dassault is bothered about criticism then let them provide the roadMap and Time Line for offset implementation, or let them (and their supporters) forever hold their silence.



They are not allowed to. Contract obligations.



> If GoI has made claims about the surgical strike then it owns it to the people to provide proof too. Else they should have kept their mouth shut. You cannot have the cake and eat it too.



They have no obligation to. When it comes to national security, the govt 'makes' the cake, and eats it.

Your duty as a citizen is to accept the govt line and parrot it as the truth in all matters of national security. There are checks and balances within the govt that ensures the govt reports the truth, the biggest being elections. We are a democracy. You are free to vote for any other party if you think the govt is lying.



> I have no problem living with limited knowledge and criticism, but you and others do. Since Rafale is intimately tied to the Offset program of billions of $, they are accountable whether you like it or not. There is going to be questions and criticism raised and it would be naive to expect everyone to just fall down dead just because you don't like to hear the POV.



The 'Rafale deal' is not the 'Rafale'. 'Offsets' isn't the 'Rafale'. You still haven't understood. You are only looking at India's Rafale deal. That wasn't my point when I said, "Most of the people who criticize the 'Rafale' have no clue about fighter aircraft in general." This applies to the Malaysians, Canadians, Americans and even the French.

As far as criticizing the 'Rafale deal' is concerned, you can wholeheartedly do that, nobody said otherwise. But doing so is simply pointless.



> The whole problem is when you cannot handle the criticism and want to play judge and jury as to who has the divine right to criticise and insist of giving certificates of 'expertise' that gives them right to criticise Rafale.



But that's how national security is. The citizen doesn't get an opinion.

Do you know your phone calls and messages are all automatically tapped and recorded by the govt? Blogs, forums, photos etc are monitored by Indian intelligence. Even your status message on Facebook is monitored.

Why else do you think the Pakistanis are using war pigeons for communication?

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## Tejasvinam

randomradio said:


> So you want information, and when I provide the procedure to try and get said information, you don't want it. Make up your mind.
> Unfortunately, you are a frog that's in the womb of a frog that lives in the well.



I have all the information I need to make up my mind and express my opinion. It is you who seems to have a stomach ache that goes with my opinion or with the opinion of others. 

It is you who is offering unsolicited advice and wild metaphors to cover up your inability to handle the truth. 



> They are not allowed to. Contract obligations.
> They have no obligation to. When it comes to national security, the govt 'makes' the cake, and eats it.



Rubbish. The govt. needs to seek re-election every 5 years, so every claim they make needs to be verified. That is why on matters of "national security" most govt. keep their trap shut. Or they offer proof like they did for Osama bin laden's assassination.

The govt. shot itself in its foot when it went about making claims for which they were in no position to offer any proof. They are now trying to mask this goof up by making high pitch noise about patriotism. Worse they are in no position to follow up on that surgical strike and continue that effort to keep the people safe. 

People from punjab border are forced to leave their homes to to this 'surgical strike' and GoI has been caught unprepared to handle this after effect. 

So No, they do not get to eat the cake. It looks like the cake is going to be smeared all over their face. 



> Your duty as a citizen is to accept the govt line and parrot it as the truth in all matters of national security. There are checks and balances within the govt that ensures the govt reports the truth, the biggest being elections. We are a democracy. You are free to vote for any other party if you think the govt is lying.



More Rubbish. I have no duty to accept anything the govt. tells me on blind faith alone. 

That may be true in a Dictatorship, its a laughable concept in a multi party democracy. Govt. all over the world lie about matters of National security and cook up all sorts of lies to cover its mistakes and inadequacies. That is a universal truth. Only a fool would think otherwise. 



> The 'Rafale deal' is not the 'Rafale'. 'Offsets' isn't the 'Rafale'. You still haven't understood. You are only looking at India's Rafale deal. That wasn't my point when I said, "Most of the people who criticize the 'Rafale' have no clue about fighter aircraft in general." This applies to the Malaysians, Canadians, Americans and even the French.
> 
> As far as criticizing the 'Rafale deal' is concerned, you can wholeheartedly do that, nobody said otherwise. But doing so is simply pointless.



I don't care about the Malaysians, Canadians, Americans etc. I only care about India and Indians. Indians is the only criticism that matter to me for most parts. Unlike you, I do not hold a brief for Dassault since they are neither Indian nor publicly traded in India nor do they hire Indians in large numbers. 



> But that's how national security is. The citizen doesn't get an opinion.
> 
> Do you know your phone calls and messages are all automatically tapped and recorded by the govt? Blogs, forums, photos etc are monitored by Indian intelligence. Even your status message on Facebook is monitored.
> 
> Why else do you think the Pakistanis are using war pigeons for communication?



Wrong. Citizens ALWAYS get an opinion, ESPECIALLY in matters of national security. 

Its laughable to say that my phones and messages are tapped and recorded. Maybe in the US and China, not in India. Indian resources and expertise are not sufficient for such massive monitoring. You have been watching too many hollywood productions and conspiracy theories. 

Only certain people are monitored, usually those who's name come up during investigations.


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## Gessler

@Tejasvinam 

There was an article in The Wire recently...



> ...Reliance Defence that will execute a decent portion of the Rs. 20,000 – Rs. 30,000 crore that will flow in as a result of the Rafale deal...



http://thewire.in/70450/reliance-defence-wins-big-aftermath-rafale-deal/

Convert that into Euros and you get between 2.7 to 4 billions. The maximum here is exactly as what was expected under a deal worth 7.87 billions. Other than Reliance contract, the rest of the offsets are not yet finalized so jumping up and down just yet is extremely premature.

Besides, what do you think Dassault, MBDA, Thales or Safran will get by denying offsets to India? That's bad business for them - a production line in India will benefit the French industry as well, and will add to their international supply chain...the same way how Lockheed, Boeing, Airbus & Sikorsky do.

You need to start looking at the bigger picture and stop thinking that every single country out there has nothing to do except try to hurt or damage India in some way or the other.

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## Gessler

Technogaianist said:


> Oo, people fighting on the Internet.



Now, ain't that the reason why this forum is popular.



> Oh, hey. I know you



The internet is a small place.

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## Athen

now that rafale deal is done ... how about we close this thread and start new one(ie there is no tender anymore)!!

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## Gessler

Athen said:


> now that rafale deal is done ... how about we close this thread and start new one(ie there is no tender anymore)!!



No need...just get a Mod to remove "tender" from the title and we're good. I want to see this thread hit 1,000 pages.

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## halloweene

Vergennes said:


> @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Louiq XIV @halloweene
> 
> Please,N joy.
> 
> View attachment 341085


I see you liked Stephane's compendium

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## randomradio

Tejasvinam said:


> I have all the information I need to make up my mind and express my opinion. It is you who seems to have a stomach ache that goes with my opinion or with the opinion of others.
> 
> It is you who is offering unsolicited advice and wild metaphors to cover up your inability to handle the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> Rubbish. The govt. needs to seek re-election every 5 years, so every claim they make needs to be verified. That is why on matters of "national security" most govt. keep their trap shut. Or they offer proof like they did for Osama bin laden's assassination.
> 
> The govt. shot itself in its foot when it went about making claims for which they were in no position to offer any proof. They are now trying to mask this goof up by making high pitch noise about patriotism. Worse they are in no position to follow up on that surgical strike and continue that effort to keep the people safe.
> 
> People from punjab border are forced to leave their homes to to this 'surgical strike' and GoI has been caught unprepared to handle this after effect.
> 
> So No, they do not get to eat the cake. It looks like the cake is going to be smeared all over their face.
> 
> 
> 
> More Rubbish. I have no duty to accept anything the govt. tells me on blind faith alone.
> 
> That may be true in a Dictatorship, its a laughable concept in a multi party democracy. Govt. all over the world lie about matters of National security and cook up all sorts of lies to cover its mistakes and inadequacies. That is a universal truth. Only a fool would think otherwise.



So the govt should come down to your standards?



> Its laughable to say that my phones and messages are tapped and recorded. Maybe in the US and China, not in India. Indian resources and expertise are not sufficient for such massive monitoring.
> Only certain people are monitored, usually those who's name come up during investigations.





The UPA defended NSA's PRISM. I think India was the only country that defended PRISM. Something for you to figure out.


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## Athen

Gessler said:


> No need...just get a Mod to remove "tender" from the title and we're good. I want to see this thread hit 1,000 pages.


good enough!!!

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## Tejasvinam

Gessler said:


> @Tejasvinam
> 
> There was an article in The Wire recently...
> 
> Convert that into Euros and you get between 2.7 to 4 billions. The maximum here is exactly as what was expected under a deal worth 7.87 billions. Other than Reliance contract, the rest of the offsets are not yet finalized so jumping up and down just yet is extremely premature.
> 
> Besides, what do you think Dassault, MBDA, Thales or Safran will get by denying offsets to India? That's bad business for them - a production line in India will benefit the French industry as well, and will add to their international supply chain...the same way how Lockheed, Boeing, Airbus & Sikorsky do.
> 
> You need to start looking at the bigger picture and stop thinking that every single country out there has nothing to do except try to hurt or damage India in some way or the other.



Only monkeys "jump up and down". So is that what you are insinuating ? If so there goes your 'objective' analysis along with your credibility, straight out of the window. Its more a reflection on your infantile thinking than mine. 

Second, since there is NO Road-map and Timeline for the offset as per your own admission, every criticism about it is valid unless prove otherwise. 

Third, Boeing is already on record in trying to wriggle out of its offset commitment. They are yet to take any action for Billions of $ worth of offset that was to be executed YESTERDAY. Do you know what is Depreciation ? Do you know what is the 'Time Value of Money" ? 

Every $ that needed to be spent TODAY decreases in value with time. That money spent tomorrow is worth Less and will continue to decrease in value with every passing date. 

So any offset that is going to be implemented 5 years down the line is worth that much less in the real world. 

The history of offset obligations in India is there for all to see and learn. And for those like you who refuse to learn from history, History will repeat itself till you learn from it. I suggest you read the CAG report on it. 

Every country other there is looking out for their own, and will wriggle out of their contract at the first opportunity. If they wanted to use India for their supply chain, they would have done it ages ago, with or without Rafale. Anything made in India would cost at least 1/3 of what it will cost to make in Europe. Still how many 'supply chain' vendors do you find in India ? 

Any idea where those two Italian marines are ? the same guys who so heroically shot dead two Indian fishermen in cold blood ? You know the stand EU took on them ? The only country that will look out for India, is India. The rest will queue up to have 'Embargo' on us as they did for the last 50 years and offer platitudes in exchange which gullible fools will lap it up as manna from heaven.


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## randomradio

https://defence.pk/threads/rafael-a...e-systems-provision-for-indian-rafale.453990/

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## Louiq XIV

Vergennes said:


> @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Louiq XIV @halloweene
> 
> Please,N joy.
> 
> View attachment 341085



Yeah I've seen that epic fail from this bunch of oracles. Epic fail for them and can't wait to see our Indian friends flying our birds. That mix promise to be good

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## Taygibay

Tejasvinam said:


> Nobody is an expert on anything





Tejasvinam said:


> Most people just fake their expertise





Tejasvinam said:


> That is just the way the world works.





Tejasvinam said:


> I have no problem living with limited knowledge and criticism, but you and others do.





Tejasvinam said:


> PDF is full of self styled 'experts'





Tejasvinam said:


> It is you who seems to have a stomach ache that goes with my opinion or with the opinion of others.
> It is you who is offering unsolicited advice and wild metaphors to cover up your inability to handle the truth



And strikingly in opposition,


Tejasvinam said:


> *Govts. all over the world lie about matters of National security and* cook up all sorts of lies to *cover it*s mistakes and inadequacies. That is a universal truth
> 
> Wrong. *Citizens ALWAYS get an opinion, ESPECIALLY in matters of national security*.


​
Darn, who was that angry young man? 
And BTW, thanks for handling that gracefully enough, RandomR.
I guess explaining that the offset part is still under discussion as I
intended to and someone mentioned would not have cut it.

It goes to show that Ankit Kumar was right as Athen*** already said.


Ankit Kumar 002 said:


> Not everyone is able to digest the Rafale deal. I have confirmed alert about atleast 2 leading news portals soon ( by this night ) coming with articles about India not likely to buy more Rafale due to high costs according to "" Government Official "", OR " NO more Rafales than the 36, at this moment as IAF wants a light aircraft ".
> 
> Remember me when within 24 hours you see it.



24 hours is too long for most people's patience. Myself, I'd rather wait 6 months
to have pertinent infos on the offsets and the standard than hold baseless or
putative convos, especially after waiting 15 years for 36 planes so far ...

Thanks Gessler too for that top of page explanation and good day all, Tay.

P.S. *** And Bon-Plan.

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## Eminent Mainstream Media

BON PLAN said:


> seen !
> 
> Same sources explain us two weeks ago that India will never baught Rafale ......



Earlier we may be concerned with unnamed sources- But this Govt- has put a lid on leaks- so only official can be taken as source- But this has caused the media to shoot blind and create confusions with speculations and unnamed sources-

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## PARIKRAMA

All r silent at the moment.. may be this week completely.. the MOD machinery is working as usual but not much will come out so I don't knw if any source is saying anything at all.. mostly things will go hot again next week onwards..

India is lining a war chest of humongous proportions.. this October will see huge deals..

Rafale will see more hot action as well.. brace up for another roller coaster ride.... With Strategic Partnership spelt out in public, agreements under offset formal signature are lined up now.. DA team will wind it up within next 30 days or less versus IGA provision of 6 months.. this move practically will allow massive capability in the hands of DM MP when in December the big review of fleet and next phase of ordering plan is mobilised..

That's the time MII will gain steam and decision for that will culminate post hectic negotiations and hard bargaining..

Rafale MiI is going to get us the partial codes and technological know how and local production at a much higher level. India is finally looking at metallurgy level stuff to ensure the MIC gets upgraded.. there is a strong buzz that Indian MIC needs this capability to make Tejas a much more potent platform again mooted internally (not by outsiders on payroll) .. and also for its future platforms and a UCAV project

Come January selection process for first 3 pilots will start.. it's gonna be a massive shootout.. among the ones will be some which are used for strategic package delivery squadrons.. so out of 3 at least 1 will be from that side as well.. these folks will be then planned to move to France for the training part along with 6 other ppl..

Lots of heartburn will come.. sit relax and see what happens.. the staunch supporter of Rafale now is DM MP himself.. once and for all he is finally in sync with IAF and is clear what he wants in big number and at what price under MII. Yet he will continue playing devil's advocate and making all other dance to his pied Piper tunes.. so enjoy the coming times

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## GuardianRED

PARIKRAMA said:


> All r silent at the moment.. may be this week completely.. the MOD machinery is working as usual but not much will come out so I don't knw if any source is saying anything at all.. mostly things will go hot again next week onwards..
> 
> India is lining a war chest of humongous proportions.. this October will see huge deals..
> 
> Rafale will see more hot action as well.. brace up for another roller coaster ride.... With Strategic Partnership spelt out in public, agreements under offset formal signature are lined up now.. DA team will wind it up within next 30 days or less versus IGA provision of 6 months.. this move practically will allow massive capability in the hands of DM MP when in December the big review of fleet and next phase of ordering plan is mobilised..
> 
> That's the time MII will gain steam and decision for that will culminate post hectic negotiations and hard bargaining..
> 
> Rafale MiI is going to get us the partial codes and technological know how and local production at a much higher level. India is finally looking at metallurgy level stuff to ensure the MIC gets upgraded.. there is a strong buzz that Indian MIC needs this capability to make Tejas a much more potent platform again mooted internally (not by outsiders on payroll) .. and also for its future platforms and a UCAV project
> 
> Come January selection process for first 3 pilots will start.. it's gonna be a massive shootout.. among the ones will be some which are used for strategic package delivery squadrons.. so out of 3 at least 1 will be from that side as well.. these folks will be then planned to move to France for the training part along with 6 other ppl..
> 
> Lots of heartburn will come.. sit relax and see what happens.. the staunch supporter of Rafale now is DM MP himself.. once and for all he is finally in sync with IAF and is clear what he wants in big number and at what price under MII. Yet he will continue playing devil's advocate and making all other dance to his pied Piper tunes.. so enjoy the coming times


Yes we need news to keep this thread active

Q: Would an existing Sq (or disbanded) would be reformed for the rafales or a new squadron be named? If the latter , why not we (for fun) put forward some names

To start the game

'117th" Squadron "The Valkyries" - "Terrors of the Sky" 

Anyone next?

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## Picdelamirand-oil

PARIKRAMA said:


> All r silent at the moment.. may be this week completely.. the MOD machinery is working as usual but not much will come out so I don't knw if any source is saying anything at all.. mostly things will go hot again next week onwards..
> 
> India is lining a war chest of humongous proportions.. this October will see huge deals..
> 
> Rafale will see more hot action as well.. brace up for another roller coaster ride.... With Strategic Partnership spelt out in public, agreements under offset formal signature are lined up now.. DA team will wind it up within next 30 days or less versus IGA provision of 6 months.. this move practically will allow massive capability in the hands of DM MP when in December the big review of fleet and next phase of ordering plan is mobilised..
> 
> That's the time MII will gain steam and decision for that will culminate post hectic negotiations and hard bargaining..
> 
> Rafale MiI is going to get us the partial codes and technological know how and local production at a much higher level. India is finally looking at metallurgy level stuff to ensure the MIC gets upgraded.. there is a strong buzz that Indian MIC needs this capability to make Tejas a much more potent platform again mooted internally (not by outsiders on payroll) .. and also for its future platforms and a UCAV project
> 
> Come January selection process for first 3 pilots will start.. it's gonna be a massive shootout.. among the ones will be some which are used for strategic package delivery squadrons.. so out of 3 at least 1 will be from that side as well.. these folks will be then planned to move to France for the training part along with 6 other ppl..
> 
> Lots of heartburn will come.. sit relax and see what happens.. the staunch supporter of Rafale now is DM MP himself.. once and for all he is finally in sync with IAF and is clear what he wants in big number and at what price under MII. Yet he will continue playing devil's advocate and making all other dance to his pied Piper tunes.. so enjoy the coming times



We have some idea of the Indian Rafale configuration, what would be interesting is to know what will be included in thee other posts of the package...

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## Taygibay

PARIKRAMA said:


> Lots of heartburn will come..



Are you suggesting that India will give a Rafale indigestion to naysayers?
Interesting!!! Let' see!



TISSOT said:


> It would be great if you can wait 6 months to 1 year for payments for that Rafale. or will you insist on Payment on delivery and even some advance ?
> 
> Why do I get the feeling that you do not plan to put the money where your mouth is ?



Why, mate? Why would even the buyer delay such a payment?
An advance is a sort of insurance that work will begin immediately.

Without it, buyer could start work and find out by first payment time
that the buyer can't or won't pay. Without it, the seller could worry
that unforeseen events in the seller's country would delay work.

Let me tell you a small story that shows why I truly don't care personally :

When mountain biking came along, I was an early convert and began 
getting more complex bikes as they and I got better. On the first very big
rig built to my specs and not factory, I payed in terms and broke that bike
a year later trying to expand modestly the limits of the sport ...
But I kept paying for it for 22 more months.
I got 2 more such machines since and in both cases, payed every part on
delivery stocking them to build time and when the bikes got off the stand
after assembly went shredding in complete peace of mind, without as our
PariK would say : fear of the heartburn ... that followed that first time.

Run your business tight : pay cash when possible and make your profit on
money that is actually yours, after having earned it.

Besides, we can link this to what that angry young man was complaining 
about initially ( ToT amount ) as both are valid but unnecessary concerns
and do so using PariK's last post.


PARIKRAMA said:


> DA team will wind it up within next 30 days or less versus IGA provision of 6 months.. this move practically will allow massive capability in the hands of DM MP



That is exactly what Dassault is great at! In this case, that quick reaction
time is made easier because the plan exists for more planes to come.
Having had the discussions on MII running concurrently means that India
actually has Dassault in a position that forces them to deliver fast and well.
Any delay or error could impact MII numbers if not MII altogether.
Do you really think they want to screw that up?

In doing a good job, they also as PariK said give more elbow room for MP
to extract from the GtoG deal socio-politic approval for the MII. Check out
the way GoI is smoothing media frenzy which IMHoO is the best part of the
whole affair so far for a local. Dassault helps by being ready to provide now.

I'm always surprised that some people can't see the writing on the wall about
Rafale MMI so in case that is you too :
​
Dassault will set up shop in India. "Il y a une grosse demande de la part de l'armée indienne et tout particulièrement de l'armée de l'air. Donc on se prépare aussi à un grand futur. C'est pourquoi on souhaite avoir des partenariats très forts avec les Indiens dès aujourd'hui", a confié M. Trappier. Ce contrat va "amorcer une coopération forte en Inde avec le développement du 'make in India'. On souhaite s'installer en Inde pour faire travailler les Indiens", a-t-il ajouté. http://www.boursorama.com/actualite...ult-aviation-c5e9e1a10c322f438639a21607f8f3fd​
Trappier even said recently that the Indian presence of Dassault would follow the dual model of civilian and military productions as it is the most viable industrial ecosystem which he wouldn't say if he planned to be there for a short term.​
If a plant is built in India but the deal is for planes all made in France, what will that plant make?​
Ergo, any offset investment not made in research is for follow-up orders. MII is coming.​

So honestly, what you asked for, triple zero financing, works for cars but the Raffy ain't no Nano!

Guardian, do you have the list of inactive squadrons traditional names?
It would help non-desi folks in playing your game.
Cuz if I dream up 777th Sqdn "Arcturian Unicorn Octopii" -"Wrath of the Galaxy"
and it already existed in IAF line-up, I'd be disappointed. Not surprised but still disappointed.

Great day all, Tay.

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## Ankit Kumar 002

@PARIKRAMA is the base finalised yet ? Someone hinted me by December either Jodhpur or Gwalior would be chosen.

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## Taygibay

TISSOT said:


> That remains my POV unless future occurrence convinces me otherwise.



And it's entirely allowed / your right to think so.

Good day to you, Tay.


----------



## randomradio

TISSOT said:


> The way you expect payment on delivery and a partial payment even before delivery, the offset also needs to be implemented as per a strict time line that demonstrates good faith.
> 
> IN experience with DCNS does not inspire much confidence, neither does the IAF experience with Boeing.
> 
> If you are suggesting that Dassault will be 'different', I remain skeptical based on history. But it is likely the DM MP will dangle the carrot of more orders to ensure the offset is implement on or before expected date.
> 
> Point to be noted is that its the prospect of future order that will drive the offset implementation, not good faith or the need for honouring the contract or your word. That remains my POV unless future occurrence convinces me otherwise.



Payment will be made thrice after advance. 15% within 30 days of contract signature. And after that two more payments at specific intervals as deliveries start, followed by the last payment after delivery.

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## randomradio

TISSOT said:


> Good, Now tell me when the offset amount will be spent in India. How many days after contract signing and what are the milestones for making that investments. If the milestones are not reached, what is the penalty.



First learn manners. No one here has any obligation to tell you anything.

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## Rupeshkumar

randomradio said:


> Payment will be made thrice after advance. 15% within 30 days of contract signature. And after that two more payments at specific intervals as deliveries start, followed by the last payment after delivery.



I wonder if our babus will ask for the bribes to process the cheques/payment transfer faster ?


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## randomradio

TISSOT said:


> So all this bluster means you have no clue about it and is unwilling to admit that in public.
> 
> Let me know when you start a class on online social skills. I hope this is something that will not require your fake indignation.



I actually did write a long post explaining how it works, but then I decided against posting it because you aren't worth it. So you can believe what you want.

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## randomradio

Rupeshkumar said:


> I wonder if our babus will ask for the bribes to process the cheques/payment transfer faster ?





GTG deals are corruption free. It's because all the terms and conditions are settled by the two govts, not by a company and govt. Which means there is literally no room for corruption.

The procedures themselves are recorded in the DPP, so bureaucrats can't sit on a file waiting for a 'payment' that will never come.

Rafale is a fast track project so the procedures are twice as fast, even more faster for the Rafale deal actually.

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## Mujraparty

PARIKRAMA said:


> All r silent at the moment.. may be this week completely.. the MOD machinery is working as usual but not much will come out so I don't knw if any source is saying anything at all.. mostly things will go hot again next week onwards..
> 
> Come January selection process for first 3 pilots will start.. it's gonna be a massive shootout.. among the ones will be some which are used for strategic package delivery squadrons.. so out of 3 at least 1 will be from that side as well.. these folks will be then planned to move to France for the training part along with 6 other ppl..




WOW ...WTF ... am i the only one in here who thinks these kinds of information should not be shared on public forums ..?

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## sathya

eowyn said:


> WOW ...WTF ... am i the only one in here who thinks these kinds of information should not be shared on public forums ..?



We heard 36 aircrafts are for SFC , so it's natural SFC pilots will be given priority.
----------------------------------


" We have some idea of the Indian Rafale configuration, what would be interesting "

@Picdelamirand-oil are you suggesting naval pilot inclusion for naval Rafale?
Or nuclear officers ..?

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## randomradio

sathya said:


> We heard 36 aircrafts are for SFC , so it's natural SFC pilots will be given priority.



IAF will operate the SFC Rafales.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

sathya said:


> We heard 36 aircrafts are for SFC , so it's natural SFC pilots will be given priority.
> ----------------------------------
> 
> 
> " We have some idea of the Indian Rafale configuration, what would be interesting "
> 
> @Picdelamirand-oil are you suggesting naval pilot inclusion for naval Rafale?
> Or nuclear officers ..?


No I'm not suggesting things like . Naval pilot is too early, SFC pilot yes, but for basic pilotage. Special procedure will be developed by IAF with the help of French if needed.

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## Mujraparty

sathya said:


> We heard 36 aircrafts are for SFC , so it's natural SFC pilots will be given priority.
> ----------------------------------



all im suggesting is that poster needs to much more discreet in divulging the information ,learn from some Pak posters they will keep their mouth shut even about JF-17 attaining LGB firing capacity and here we have a poster whose revealing timelines & information of SFC pilots being sent for training n stuff that's not on public domain .........

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## Agent_47

TISSOT said:


> Good, Now tell me when the offset amount will be spent in India. How many days after contract signing and what are the milestones for making that investments.
> 
> If the milestones are not reached, what is the penalty.





TISSOT said:


> Whatever floats your boat.



@waz @Oscar This is the same guy got banned last day @Tejasvinam

Guys please ignore.

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## Taygibay

eowyn said:


> WOW ...WTF ... am i the only one in here who thinks these kinds of information should not be shared on public forums ..?



How about the exact opposite, my friend? How about governments have a tight lid on 
strategic infos but leak or let leak ( the next James Bond movie starring Ed Snowden )
enough stuff to glorify their prowesses be them commercial or truly military?



Agent_47 said:


> This is the same guy got banned last day @Tejasvinam


Chances are indeed. Everyone knows here that offsets will be finalized in 6 months
as per Indian procedure, it was even repeated and adjusted in PariK's post and here
it comes back in your quote. So either that or he's terribly distracted?

Food for thought, Tay.

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## Taygibay

MoD.

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## Taygibay

No, you asked -Who released the 6 months timetable for the offsets?
I answered -MoD.

Tay.

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## randomradio

LCA Mk1A will be flying on Kaveri in a few years because of the Rafale offsets.

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## Taygibay

TISSOT said:


> I also noticed that you have avoided answering the question about the Snitch. Why are you ashamed to answer it ?
> 
> It was a pretty straight forward question.



First because I don't have to answer all questions and second because the correct answer is nowhere.

Unless you were referring to the mechanical device of course, Tay.

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## randomradio

TISSOT said:


> Very predictable, a Fake grin is a classic defense mechanism used to guard against overwhelming anxiety.
> 
> BTW any links about how the kaveri will fly the LCA or is that part of your belief system too ?



You must be bored, maybe you think the world revolves around you. That post wasn't meant for you.

Get a life. Let those who are more serious about the IAF discuss in peace.

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## randomradio

X posting my post.

IN has a separate requirement for 54 jets also, not counting options which is generally the same in size as the first order. In a few months, Rafale MII will be announced for 90 jets and those numbers can easily reach 180 jets for only the IAF.

So our total Rafale purchase is easily between a minimum of 180 and a maximum of 342 between both the IAF and IN.

IAF
Min: 90 (number the IAF wants)
Max: 234 (similar to MKI requirement)

IN
Min: 54
Max: 108

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## BON PLAN

mike2000 is back said:


> Your people and journalists are better than ours believe me. If only you knew what they are saying about our weapons and their Sale to foreign countries.
> 
> @BON PLAN ,  , @Taygibay, @Vergennes .
> il faut laisser parler les gens.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Il faut arriver à lâcher prise avec « le qu’en dira-t-on » car malgré tous les efforts que tu puisses faire, rien ne pourra arrêter les gens de parler, d’ébruiter des ragots, s’ils en ont envie.
> 
> Donc comme on dit souvent: le chien aboie la caravane passe.


Excellent mon ami !



Taygibay said:


> Ah? Je croyais que c'était : Les ciseaux à bois et la caravanne passe.
> 
> To non-French speaking PDF members, that's a play on words; untranslatable.
> 
> Great day all, Tay.


Funny (for a French). Really funny.

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## Vergennes

Taygibay said:


> Ah? Je croyais que c'était : Les ciseaux à bois et la caravanne passe.
> 
> To non-French speaking PDF members, that's a play on words; untranslatable.
> 
> Great day all, Tay.





BON PLAN said:


> Excellent mon ami !
> 
> 
> Funny (for a French). Really funny.





Tay,dehors. -------------> [_]
-
A nice Rafale pic in the Levant for the ending week.







Good week-end to all.

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## BON PLAN

eowyn said:


> WOW ...WTF ... am i the only one in here who thinks these kinds of information should not be shared on public forums ..?


Oh please ! It's not so strategic.



Vergennes said:


> Tay,dehors. -------------> [_]


Oh tu es dur là !!!!

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## newindiandefence

randomradio said:


> X posting my post.
> 
> IN has a separate requirement for 54 jets also, not counting options which is generally the same in size as the first order. In a few months, Rafale MII will be announced for 90 jets and those numbers can easily reach 180 jets for only the IAF.
> 
> So our total Rafale purchase is easily between a minimum of 180 and a maximum of 342 between both the IAF and IN.
> 
> IAF
> Min: 90 (number the IAF wants)
> Max: 234 (similar to MKI requirement)
> 
> IN
> Min: 54
> Max: 108


This would happen only if rafale can beat j20 and pakfa
India will order after examine the f3r + Indian modified rafale .

And chances are very rare. 

Fgfa coming with magical technologies.

I can say this as a fanboy fgfa.

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## Abingdonboy

eowyn said:


> all im suggesting is that poster needs to much more discreet in divulging the information ,learn from some Pak posters they will keep their mouth shut even about JF-17 attaining LGB firing capacity and here we have a poster whose revealing timelines & information of SFC pilots being sent for training n stuff that's not on public domain .........


What's the problem with this info bro? It is well known that the SFC will operate part of the Rafale fleet so by extension their pilots will have to be amongst the first trained on the platform. @PARIKRAMA isn't providing the names/ranks/id number of the pilots in question. 

I am probably one of the greatest proponents of protecting OPSEC on PDF but I don't see anything wrong with the info that has gone out. The fact of the matter is the IAF will protect these details to the greatest degree possible themselves. To this day it is not known within the public domain how many assets the SFC has under their command at any one time or where these assets are operating from.



newindiandefence said:


> This would happen only if rafale can beat j20 and pakfa
> India will order after examine the f3r + Indian modified rafale .
> 
> And chances are very rare.
> 
> Fgfa coming with magical technologies.
> 
> I can say this as a fanboy fgfa.


FGFA is the replacement for the MKI in the long term, the Rafale is a replacement for the MiG-27 and Jaguar and more aimed at the DPSA role within the IAF. The FGFA is to be primarily utilised (and optimised) for "aerial dominance" (as the IAF terms it). 


There is absolutely no way the FGFA, a heavyweight 5th gen Russian plane, will be able to match the Rafale's >75% availability.

It just isn't practical for the FGFA to be the backbone of the IAF, it will be the top most rung of the ladder but will need to be supported by other assets (Rafale, AMCA, LCA and Super MKI). 

There is little to no crossover between the Rafale and FGFA and many falsely assert that there will be budgetary/operational competition between these two birds when nothing could be further from the truth. 

There is no need for the Rafale to "beat" the PAK-FA, and it WILL shame the J20 in pretty much every way.



randomradio said:


> X posting my post.
> 
> IN has a separate requirement for 54 jets also, not counting options which is generally the same in size as the first order. In a few months, Rafale MII will be announced for 90 jets and those numbers can easily reach 180 jets for only the IAF.
> 
> So our total Rafale purchase is easily between a minimum of 180 and a maximum of 342 between both the IAF and IN.
> 
> IAF
> Min: 90 (number the IAF wants)
> Max: 234 (similar to MKI requirement)
> 
> IN
> Min: 54
> Max: 108


54 is barely 3 SQNs worth for the IN. By 2025 the IN will require at least 5-6 carrier SQNs (with war reserves) and by 2030 4-5 more. 

It is most bizzare that the IN's requirements are being ignored by the media amongst the frenzy. A carrier is set to enter service in 2018/19 that right now has not got its own air wing even ordered, let alone in the delivery phase. It is being mistakenly assumed that the 3 SQNs of MiG-29K/KUB will be adequate to support 2 carriers when each carrier itself can support 2 full SQNs AND the IN has already stated the 3rd MIG-29K/KUB SQN is to be a shore based OCU for qualifying new naval aviators. 

There is going to be a shortfall felt very soon and yet there is a strange silence on the matter, the IN isn't even in talks to order more MiG-29Ks neither does Russia seem to have any hopes of selling more to India so what exactly is the plan?

Before anyone says it, the N-LCA doesn't even come into the equation, it is not going to be a frontline carrier asset for the IN.

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## newindiandefence

FGFA is the replacement for the MKI in the long term, the Rafale is a replacement for the MiG-27 and Jaguar and more aimed at the DPSA role within the IAF. The FGFA is to be primarily utilised (and optimised) for "aerial dominance" (as the IAF terms it).


There is absolutely no way the FGFA, a heavyweight 5th gen Russian plane, will be able to match the Rafale's >75% availability.

It just isn't practical for the FGFA to be the backbone of the IAF, it will be the top most rung of the ladder but will need to be supported by other assets (Rafale, AMCA, LCA and Super MKI).

There is little to no crossover between the Rafale and FGFA and many falsely assert that there will be budgetary/operational competition between these two birds when nothing could be further from the truth. 

There is no need for the Rafale to "beat" the PAK-FA, and it WILL shame the J20 in pretty much every war


Agree with u in this way to look,

But 36 will be completed in 2021 .. And further orders in make in india will go to 2030 + time frame if ordered after seeing capabilities of rafale as per arup raha .

In that time frame , India will look china's capability j 20 and j31 ..
Posibaly Pakistan can get j 31 also .
If fgfa or 3 prototypes of pakfa which India would get in 4 bil R/D contract of fgfa parform well India will be saure for amca because transfer of tech ... And they will go for amca .. If any doubt they will order 2-3 more squardon of rafale in fly away condition, if they will be not satisfied they will go for hues order 150+ or make in india

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> 54 is barely 3 SQNs worth for the IN. By 2025 the IN will require at least 5-6 carrier SQNs (with war reserves) and by 2030 4-5 more.
> 
> It is most bizzare that the IN's requirements are being ignored by the media amongst the frenzy. A carrier is set to enter service in 2018/19 that right now has not got its own air wing even ordered, let alone in the delivery phase. It is being mistakenly assumed that the 3 SQNs of MiG-29K/KUB will be adequate to support 2 carriers when each carrier itself can support 2 full SQNs AND the IN has already stated the 3rd MIG-29K/KUB SQN is to be a shore based OCU for qualifying new naval aviators.
> 
> There is going to be a shortfall felt very soon and yet there is a strange silence on the matter, the IN isn't even in talks to order more MiG-29Ks neither does Russia seem to have any hopes of selling more to India so what exactly is the plan?
> 
> Before anyone says it, the N-LCA doesn't even come into the equation, it is not going to be a frontline carrier asset for the IN.



Yes, in total IN needs 150 new fighter aircraft for the 3 carrier force. But the Rafale requirement is over 100 in reality, with about 30 for IAC-1 and about 40 for IAC-2 (more helicopters on IAC-2).

IN may even choose a Rafale+F-35 mix because the Pentagon wants India to buy the F-35 also. So nobody knows what direction they are going in.

And before you attack the F-35, remember that regardless of its shortcomings, it's a really good strike aircraft, that's what it was designed for. So both the Rafale and F-35 can be deployed on a carrier.



Technogaianist said:


> Cheers, and hopefully India gets its Rafale soon so the forum can obsess with something else!!



Not for a few more years unfortunately. After the GTG, there's MII, then the IN GTG, then IN MII etc. We are set until 2020.

But in a few months we will start obsessing over another MRCA, FGFA and AMCA also, so that brings in variety.

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## Taygibay

Abingdonboy said:


> The FGFA is to be primarily utilised (and optimised) for "aerial dominance" (as the IAF terms it).



So then you have your IAF's FGFA number at hand! 

Air Dominance is the LM-Pentagon buzzword invented to elevate the Raptor above the rest
in the psyche of the public. It's a psy-ops, induced perception, communication thing.

There are 187 F-22s vs 2,443 planned F-35s for a ratio of 1:13 and a nickel!

If the IAF wants to complete the mimicry, apply that ratio to planned strength!

 Tay.

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> So then you have your IAF's FGFA number at hand!



154 MII. Possibly 60-65 more from Russian lines for their version.



> Air Dominance is the LM-Pentagon buzzword invented to elevate the Raptor above the rest
> in the psyche of the public.



The IAF is actually serious about their terms. It was used for the MKI to separate it from the Mig-21 and Mig-29 'air superiority' aircraft.



> There are 187 F-22s vs 2,443 planned F-35s for a ratio of 1:13 and a nickel!
> 
> If the IAF wants to complete the mimicry, apply that ratio to planned strength!
> 
> Tay.



It should have been 750 and 2443. So now we have to see if 2443 will be achieved or will go the F-22 way.

Anyway, the FGFA will eventually be 1/3rd of the fleet and similar to the ratio of 1:3.25 the USAF wanted for their F-22/F-35 fleet.

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## Taygibay



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## Ankit Kumar 002

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/784736817375502337

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## PARIKRAMA

Technogaianist said:


> I really don't care. I was just poking Parikrama.



I still thanked you ....

What to do.. I am a loyal fan..

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## BON PLAN

newindiandefence said:


> Fgfa coming with magical technologies.


Nothing is magic with russia !

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## Hellfire

@salarsikander you will find things here

Ask info from what is unclear @PARIKRAMA @BON PLAN @Taygibay @randomradio @R!CK @Ankit Kumar 002 @Vergennes

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## Hellfire

Technogaianist said:


> Oh no. I've got a fan club now?



You do. Only you change your avtaars so quickly, one has to keep an eye out


----------



## Picdelamirand-oil

BON PLAN said:


> He takes 9 to 12 months more than needed to firm, and now he want an urgent delivery !
> 
> But a customer is always right .....
> 
> 
> take some more years pleaaaaase !
> 
> 
> No clear indication about the 18 ...... or do you have some source?



We must not exaggerate the reproaches to Parrikar. 18 months were essential especially in relation to the need to establish a state commitment to state from scratch. The difficulties to federate the various Indian ministries have also made things worse.
Meanwhile, Thales had time to refine how to enable offsets for position at best for the future: for example it is matter of installing support benches to facilitate engagement of 75% availability but can also be used for production of serial equipment ...

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## randomradio

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> We must not exaggerate the reproaches to Parrikar. 18 months were essential especially in relation to the need to establish a state commitment to state from scratch. The difficulties to federate the various Indian ministries have also made things worse.
> Meanwhile, Thales had time to refine how to enable offsets for position at best for the future: for example it is matter of installing support benches to facilitate engagement of 75% availability but can also be used for production of serial equipment ...



Weather was the main culprit. The discussions ended in May if you recall.

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## Agent_47

DrSomnath999 said:


> No it won't, at least not without a vector. Since ASMP wasn't sold and Brahmos-NG
> having started development in May of this year only is a few years to fruition, the
> above statement is a fallacy. Fr Raffys can nuke,* Indian Rafales won't ... for now..*
> 
> *it looks absurd to me as brahmos NG is for later stages right now Brahmos A would do the job*


Please give a source for 'NG development starting' part

From last year:


> Concept-wise, it is very attractive. But, so many developments are taking place and hence we are not able to come up with a definitive plan. It is much smaller in size and range is quite good and it can be launched from several platforms. An aircraft can carry two or three BRAHMOS-NG. It can go into torpedo tubes and smaller ships can use them too. Even a missile boat can carry it. It is miniaturization of the missile and its range will not be affected and it will go the full distance in the ideal trajectory. But in other trajectories, it may reduce. We have not started the programme and it is too early to discuss it. But it is one of the business prospects.



http://www.brahmos.com/pressRelease.php?id=54

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## mike2000 is back

Taygibay said:


> View attachment 341852


sexy *

*

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## Taygibay

DrSomnath999 said:


> you are asking for proof
> that too in a forum which is of a nationality that is very friendly to our nation
> 
> Beleive it or not
> *India have plutonium based free falling unguided nuclear bombs which are lighter ,smaller & easiear to carry*
> 
> PLZ dont expect anymore info from me apart from that .
> .
> For your kind information
> we do have a strategic force command .Luckily it claims we have a triad of 2nd strike capabilty after induction of arihant sub.
> 
> BTW we are not fools spending billion dollars on buying a plane which cant be nuclear capable like rafale
> 
> whatver it may be regarding Brahmos airlaunched version i am quite sure by the time rafale is inducted in IAF it would
> have been part of su 30mki squadron . So no big deal to integrate brahmos on rafale which france have alraedy agreed
> 
> so for your previous post
> No it won't, at least not without a vector. Since ASMP wasn't sold and Brahmos-NG
> having started development in May of this year only is a few years to fruition, the
> above statement is a fallacy. Fr Raffys can nuke,* Indian Rafales won't ... for now..*
> 
> *it looks absurd to me as brahmos NG is for later stages right now Brahmos A would do the job*
> 
> 
> 
> *CHEERS*



You got hyped for nothing, DrSomnath.
I know what India has and about Brahmos variants, of which the NG is
not done as Agent47 told you and it can't be tested until it's ready, can it?
Free fall bombs don't count because they can be used from just about
any fighter and more if affinity. I answered as much regarding the B-61.

Re-read my full answer :
"I take it you then have *relative proof of an existing Indian nuclear weapon
that the contract states will be ported on those Rafale*. If so, would you mind
sharing that information?"


France did not include nukes and so articles saying India has made its deterrence
a lot better are wrong. It can come to be once what you described is incorporated to
those Indian Rafales but that has not happened quite yet, that's all!





mike2000 is back said:


> sexy


Yeah, and I thought a tiger livery would befit our Indian friends most. Makes sense.

Good evening all, Tay.

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## PARIKRAMA

*Rafale fighter jet deal to create thousands of jobs, India Inc to get 3 bn Euros worth biz*
*This clause is expected to boost indigenous defence production with transfer of technology and joint ventures with local partner firms*
By: Huma Siddiqui | Updated: October 10, 2016 7:25 AM








The 7.87 billion Euro agreement between India and France for the 36 Rafale fighter jets comes with a 50% offset clause which means that Indian companies will get business worth over 3 billion euros and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets. (Reuters)


A decade after then defence minister AK Antony approved the Request for Proposal to buy 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft, the Indian Air Force will get its first Rafale fighter jets in the next 33 months from French company Dassault Aviation. The 36 aircraft that the IAF will get will replace the ailing MiGs. The first plane will be delivered within three and half years, and the entire lot in five years.

The 7.87 billion Euro agreement between India and France for the 36 Rafale fighter jets comes with a 50% offset clause which means that Indian companies will get business worth over 3 billion euros and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets. This is reportedly the largest ever offset contract in India’s history. *This clause is expected to boost indigenous defence production with transfer of technology, joint ventures with local partner firms, licensed production and even perhaps relocation of production lines in the long run.*

“The offset clause of 50% in the Rafale deal will provide a great opportunity for indigenous manufacturers such as us who have put in years of effort to develop world-class technology within the country,” says Puneet Kaura, MD and CEO, Samtel Avionics. “It further outlines the commitment made by the Indian government to promote the Indian manufacturing industry and support indigenisation of defence needs of the country. *There is also a possibility for India to become a global manufacturing hub for these fighter planes in case there is successful transfer of technology.”*
Since Dassault Aviation Company was not keen on transfer of technology, under the 50% offset clause,* it has agreed to help India with the Light Combat Aircraft MK 2 and AMCA.*

*French company Snecma (Safran)( a Dassault partner along with Thales) has proposed to invest Euro one billion in the Kaveri Gas Turbine Engine to be fitted in the LCA MK1A. Safran has developed the M88 engine that powers the Rafale as well as the Shakti engine for Indian advanced light helicopters (ALH) ‘Dhruv’.*
*
MBDA will work with Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to transfer Thrust Vectoring technologies that are expected to be used in Astra and other missiles putting them at the level of Meteor—making the missiles more lethal.
Under the deal, the French company has agreed to transfer the special spray paint and coating technology which is of immense benefit to Indian programmes, including LCA, AMCA, SU-30 MKI and FGFA.
*
*Also, it is expected that 36 combat machines could get the final layer of the stealth paint here in India as part of Make in India initiative.*
*The radar technology on Rafale can easily be adapted to other aircrafts in IAF. As part of the deal, the multimode AESA radar technology will be transferred to DRDO for application on UTTAM AESA radar.*
The high-end twin engine aircraft with a state-of-the-art electronic scanning radar will certainly add to the IAF’s capabilities. The MBDA’s new-age Meteor Beyond Visual Range missile, can hit targets over 150 km away, without entering the enemy airspace before launching an attack. The aircraft is also capable of firing nuclear missiles.

http://www.financialexpress.com/india-news/rafael-fighter-jet-deal-to-create-thousands-of-jobs-india-inc-to-get-3-bn-euros-worth-biz/412366/
++++
Finally its out in public domain

LCA MK2 and AMCA Help
Safranised Kaveri to be fitted in LCA Mk1A
Thrust Vectoring to Astra
RAM coating and technology behind it for application to LCA, AMCA, Su30 MKI and FGFA
RBE2 AESA tech and code and application to all IAF inventory (a direct competition to 2052) via TOT to Uttam AESA
So long we kept saying the same.. 

I like the line when Newspaper says DA is not keen for TOT and yet it gives all this as part of the offsets.. I hope they were not expecting to part it for free rather now with so much deep inroads via such MIC level cooperation and making the ecosystem ready for a cutting edge fighter plane manufacturing, it serves the very purpose we all wanted to begin with.

The question to wonder is with so much cooperation why would India, France and Dassault stop at just 36. And if suppose thats the reality that its just say 36 so for say 90 odd jets how much a single engine aircraft like LWF has to give as part of the technology and priceto better the deal as its now a benchmark along with legacy MKI deal for HAL.

A nice start to the week.. Enjoy

@Abingdonboy - Its as per what we discussed - LCA and AMCA .. Safranised Kaveri for Mk1A. You will see uprated Kaveri too going into AMCA. In a way its now a gamechanger for India bcz other manufacturers have to offer a Engine tech in full to entice India into buying or shell out other goodies with re engine option.. Its gonna make life very difficult for LWF folks

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others @Agent_47

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## Agent_47

Did not expect it to be open so fast. 
Where are all the naysayers !

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## Agent_47

I suspect every tech once offered by MBDA with Maitri JV is part of this deal.

Active homing head
Thrust vector control
Terminal phase endgame algorithms

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## Ankit Kumar 002

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Rafale fighter jet deal to create thousands of jobs, India Inc to get 3 bn Euros worth biz*
> *This clause is expected to boost indigenous defence production with transfer of technology and joint ventures with local partner firms*
> By: Huma Siddiqui | Updated: October 10, 2016 7:25 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 7.87 billion Euro agreement between India and France for the 36 Rafale fighter jets comes with a 50% offset clause which means that Indian companies will get business worth over 3 billion euros and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets. (Reuters)
> 
> 
> A decade after then defence minister AK Antony approved the Request for Proposal to buy 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft, the Indian Air Force will get its first Rafale fighter jets in the next 33 months from French company Dassault Aviation. The 36 aircraft that the IAF will get will replace the ailing MiGs. The first plane will be delivered within three and half years, and the entire lot in five years.
> 
> The 7.87 billion Euro agreement between India and France for the 36 Rafale fighter jets comes with a 50% offset clause which means that Indian companies will get business worth over 3 billion euros and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets. This is reportedly the largest ever offset contract in India’s history. *This clause is expected to boost indigenous defence production with transfer of technology, joint ventures with local partner firms, licensed production and even perhaps relocation of production lines in the long run.*
> 
> “The offset clause of 50% in the Rafale deal will provide a great opportunity for indigenous manufacturers such as us who have put in years of effort to develop world-class technology within the country,” says Puneet Kaura, MD and CEO, Samtel Avionics. “It further outlines the commitment made by the Indian government to promote the Indian manufacturing industry and support indigenisation of defence needs of the country. *There is also a possibility for India to become a global manufacturing hub for these fighter planes in case there is successful transfer of technology.”*
> Since Dassault Aviation Company was not keen on transfer of technology, under the 50% offset clause,* it has agreed to help India with the Light Combat Aircraft MK 2 and AMCA.*
> 
> *French company Snecma (Safran)( a Dassault partner along with Thales) has proposed to invest Euro one billion in the Kaveri Gas Turbine Engine to be fitted in the LCA MK1A. Safran has developed the M88 engine that powers the Rafale as well as the Shakti engine for Indian advanced light helicopters (ALH) ‘Dhruv’.*
> *
> MBDA will work with Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to transfer Thrust Vectoring technologies that are expected to be used in Astra and other missiles putting them at the level of Meteor—making the missiles more lethal.
> Under the deal, the French company has agreed to transfer the special spray paint and coating technology which is of immense benefit to Indian programmes, including LCA, AMCA, SU-30 MKI and FGFA.
> *
> *Also, it is expected that 36 combat machines could get the final layer of the stealth paint here in India as part of Make in India initiative.*
> *The radar technology on Rafale can easily be adapted to other aircrafts in IAF. As part of the deal, the multimode AESA radar technology will be transferred to DRDO for application on UTTAM AESA radar.*
> The high-end twin engine aircraft with a state-of-the-art electronic scanning radar will certainly add to the IAF’s capabilities. The MBDA’s new-age Meteor Beyond Visual Range missile, can hit targets over 150 km away, without entering the enemy airspace before launching an attack. The aircraft is also capable of firing nuclear missiles.
> 
> http://www.financialexpress.com/india-news/rafael-fighter-jet-deal-to-create-thousands-of-jobs-india-inc-to-get-3-bn-euros-worth-biz/412366/
> ++++
> Finally its out in public domain
> 
> LCA MK2 and AMCA Help
> Safranised Kaveri to be fitted in LCA Mk1A
> Thrust Vectoring to Astra
> RAM coating and technology behind it for application to LCA, AMCA, Su30 MKI and FGFA
> RBE2 AESA tech and code and application to all IAF inventory (a direct competition to 2052) via TOT to Uttam AESA
> So long we kept saying the same..
> 
> I like the line when Newspaper says DA is not keen for TOT and yet it gives all this as part of the offsets.. I hope they were not expecting to part it for free rather now with so much deep inroads via such MIC level cooperation and making the ecosystem ready for a cutting edge fighter plane manufacturing, it serves the very purpose we all wanted to begin with.
> 
> The question to wonder is with so much cooperation why would India, France and Dassault stop at just 36. And if suppose thats the reality that its just say 36 so for say 90 odd jets how much a single engine aircraft like LWF has to give as part of the technology and priceto better the deal as its now a benchmark along with legacy MKI deal for HAL.
> 
> A nice start to the week.. Enjoy
> 
> @Abingdonboy - Its as per what we discussed - LCA and AMCA .. Safranised Kaveri for Mk1A. You will see uprated Kaveri too going into AMCA. In a way its now a gamechanger for India bcz other manufacturers have to offer a Engine tech in full to entice India into buying or shell out other goodies with re engine option.. Its gonna make life very difficult for LWF folks
> 
> @Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others @Agent_47



More than anything , I want the MII part to at least start being negotiated. It will free up a lot confusion. 

And if Kaveri upgrade is actually happening, this signals one important thing. I.e. more MK1A .... 

Just wish that these HAL walas and MoD settle the production issues and get a production line to a private company.

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## [Bregs]

MII of Rafale is going to happen, now point is when ? 

Delivery of 36+18 will take time to complete by 2022

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## ashok321

http://www.financialexpress.com/ind...india-inc-to-get-3-bn-euros-worth-biz/412366/







A decade after then defence minister AK Antony approved the Request for Proposal to buy 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft, the Indian Air Force will get its first Rafale fighter jets in the next 33 months from French company Dassault Aviation. The 36 aircraft that the IAF will get will replace the ailing MiGs. The first plane will be delivered within three and half years, and the entire lot in five years.

The 7.87 billion Euro agreement between India and France for the 36 Rafale fighter jets comes with a 50% offset clause which means that Indian companies will get business worth over 3 billion euros and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets. This is reportedly the largest ever offset contract in India’s history. This clause is expected to boost indigenous defence production with transfer of technology, joint ventures with local partner firms, licensed production and even perhaps relocation of production lines in the long run.

“The offset clause of 50% in the Rafale deal will provide a great opportunity for indigenous manufacturers such as us who have put in years of effort to develop world-class technology within the country,” says Puneet Kaura, MD and CEO, Samtel Avionics. “It further outlines the commitment made by the Indian government to promote the Indian manufacturing industry and support indigenisation of defence needs of the country. There is also a possibility for India to become a global manufacturing hub for these fighter planes in case there is successful transfer of technology.”
Since Dassault Aviation Company was not keen on transfer of technology, under the 50% offset clause, it has agreed to help India with the Light Combat Aircraft MK 2 and AMCA.




French company Snecma (Safran)( a Dassault partner along with Thales) has proposed to invest Euro one billion in the Kaveri Gas Turbine Engine to be fitted in the LCA MK1A. Safran has developed the M88 engine that powers the Rafale as well as the Shakti engine for Indian advanced light helicopters (ALH) ‘Dhruv’.

MBDA will work with Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to transfer Thrust Vectoring technologies that are expected to be used in Astra and other missiles putting them at the level of Meteor—making the missiles more lethal.
Under the deal, the French company has agreed to transfer the special spray paint and coating technology which is of immense benefit to Indian programmes, including LCA, AMCA, SU-30 MKI and FGFA.

Also, it is expected that 36 combat machines could get the final layer of the stealth paint here in India as part of Make in India initiative.


The radar technology on Rafale can easily be adapted to other aircrafts in IAF. As part of the deal, the multimode AESA radar technology will be transferred to DRDO for application on UTTAM AESA radar.
The high-end twin engine aircraft with a state-of-the-art electronic scanning radar will certainly add to the IAF’s capabilities. The MBDA’s new-age Meteor Beyond Visual Range missile, can hit targets over 150 km away, without entering the enemy airspace before launching an attack. The aircraft is also capable of firing nuclear missiles.


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## GoodKnight

PARIKRAMA said:


> The 7.87 billion Euro agreement between India and France for the 36 Rafale fighter jets comes with a 50% offset clause which means that Indian companies will get business worth over 3 billion euros and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets. (Reuters)
> 
> 
> A decade after then defence minister AK Antony approved the Request for Proposal to buy 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft, the Indian Air Force will get its first Rafale fighter jets in the next 33 months from French company Dassault Aviation. The 36 aircraft that the IAF will get will replace the ailing MiGs. The first plane will be delivered within three and half years, and the entire lot in five years.
> 
> The 7.87 billion Euro agreement between India and France for the 36 Rafale fighter jets comes with a 50% offset clause which means that Indian companies will get business worth over 3 billion euros and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets. This is reportedly the largest ever offset contract in India’s history. *This clause is expected to boost indigenous defence production with transfer of technology, joint ventures with local partner firms, licensed production and even perhaps relocation of production lines in the long run.*
> 
> “The offset clause of 50% in the Rafale deal will provide a great opportunity for indigenous manufacturers such as us who have put in years of effort to develop world-class technology within the country,” says Puneet Kaura, MD and CEO, Samtel Avionics. “It further outlines the commitment made by the Indian government to promote the Indian manufacturing industry and support indigenisation of defence needs of the country. *There is also a possibility for India to become a global manufacturing hub for these fighter planes in case there is successful transfer of technology.”*
> Since Dassault Aviation Company was not keen on transfer of technology, under the 50% offset clause,* it has agreed to help India with the Light Combat Aircraft MK 2 and AMCA.*
> [/FONT]
> *French company Snecma (Safran)( a Dassault partner along with Thales) has proposed to invest Euro one billion in the Kaveri Gas Turbine Engine to be fitted in the LCA MK1A. Safran has developed the M88 engine that powers the Rafale as well as the Shakti engine for Indian advanced light helicopters (ALH) ‘Dhruv’.*
> *
> MBDA will work with Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to transfer Thrust Vectoring technologies that are expected to be used in Astra and other missiles putting them at the level of Meteor—making the missiles more lethal.
> Under the deal, the French company has agreed to transfer the special spray paint and coating technology which is of immense benefit to Indian programmes, including LCA, AMCA, SU-30 MKI and FGFA.
> *
> *Also, it is expected that 36 combat machines could get the final layer of the stealth paint here in India as part of Make in Indiainitiative.*
> *The radar technology on Rafale can easily be adapted to other aircrafts in IAF. As part of the deal, the multimode AESA radar technology will be transferred to DRDO for application on UTTAM AESA radar.*
> The high-end twin engine aircraft with a state-of-the-art electronic scanning radar will certainly add to the IAF’s capabilities. The MBDA’s new-age Meteor Beyond Visual Range missile, can hit targets over 150 km away, without entering the enemy airspace before launching an attack. The aircraft is also capable of firing nuclear missiles.
> 
> ++++
> Finally its out in public domain
> 
> LCA MK2 and AMCA Help
> Safranised Kaveri to be fitted in LCA Mk1A
> Thrust Vectoring to Astra
> RAM coating and technology behind it for application to LCA, AMCA, Su30 MKI and FGFA
> RBE2 AESA tech and code and application to all IAF inventory (a direct competition to 2052) via TOT to Uttam AESA
> So long we kept saying the same..
> 
> I like the line when Newspaper says DA is not keen for TOT and yet it gives all this as part of the offsets.. I hope they were not expecting to part it for free rather now with so much deep inroads via such MIC level cooperation and making the ecosystem ready for a cutting edge fighter plane manufacturing, it serves the very purpose we all wanted to begin with.
> 
> The question to wonder is with so much cooperation why would India, France and Dassault stop at just 36. And if suppose thats the reality that its just say 36 so for say 90 odd jets how much a single engine aircraft like LWF has to give as part of the technology and priceto better the deal as its now a benchmark along with legacy MKI deal for HAL.
> 
> A nice start to the week.. Enjoy
> 
> @Abingdonboy - Its as per what we discussed - LCA and AMCA .. Safranised Kaveri for Mk1A. You will see uprated Kaveri too going into AMCA. In a way its now a gamechanger for India bcz other manufacturers have to offer a Engine tech in full to entice India into buying or shell out other goodies with re engine option.. Its gonna make life very difficult for LWF folks



This is a classic case of people seeing what they want to see. 

But these are what the article EXPLICITLY states.

1. Of 7.87 Billion Euro, ONLY 3 Billion $ will be DEEMED invested in India. This is even less than 40%.* Its only 38%*. THIS is the real value of the Offset. (on paper). NOT Actually invested, ONLY Deemed Invested. 

2. *Dassault Aviation Company is not keen on transfer of technology, under the 50% offset clause. * and setting up production in India. 

3. Govt. of India had to WORK AROUND this reluctance and find a different solution. 

4. Snecma will now CLAIM credit of 1 billio $ after helping Kaveri come to fruition. This will not be any Actualy investment of 1 billion $ in Real money. 


5. Dassault will be able to CLAIM 1 billion $ WHEN the Kaveri becomes ready after its help. So any actualy job creation will be only AFTER the Kaveri is compelted, Certified, Fitted on the aircraft, Aircraft then certified AND THEN when production begins. A good 8-10 years in the future. 

6. Production will be in HAL so any jobs created will be in HAL. 

7. MBDA will transfer tech to Astra and then Dassault can then CLAIM an offset of couple of hunder million $.

8. Again ANY job creation will be AFTER the missile is tested, certified, accpted by AF and THEN productin beings. Only this job creation will ALSO be in Bharat Dynamics, another PSU. 

9. Spray Paint and coating technology will be transferd (Probably to HAL or maybe Reliance) and then Dassaut can again CLAIM offset for a coupld of hundred million $. Again NO ACTUAL INVESTMENT will be made by Dassault. 

10. All in all the 'Offset' will allow for limited Tech transfer but will result in MINIMAL Dassault money being invested in India. ANY and All investements will be by Indian companies. 

11. Any job creation will be in hundres not in thousands and most of them will be in PSU. Even then the priority will be to Re-Train existing staff, so it is unlikey any new jobs will be created. 


12. These Offset will not be any real Monetary Investment, it will only be ToT of deemed equivalent and Claimed by Dassault. 


13. *Finally This makes it perfectly clear that No more Rafale will be purchaased *. ALL ToT will be for existing Indian projects Like LCA, Astra and Kaveri (Maybe AURA), not to build any more Rafale. 



I hope NOW the 'fan boys' can get this through their thick skull and finally stop this public masturbation for more Rafales.



[Bregs] said:


> MII of Rafale is going to happen, now point is when ?
> 
> Delivery of 36+18 will take time to complete by 2022



LOL.... NO MII of Rafale is going to happen. Ever.

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## eldamar

GoodKnight said:


> This is a classic case of people seeing what they want to see.
> 
> But these are what the article EXPLICITLY states.
> 
> 1. Of 7.87 Billion Euro, ONLY 3 Billion $ will be DEEMED invested in India. This is even less than 40%.* Its only 38%*. THIS is the real value of the Offset. (on paper). NOT Actually invested, ONLY Deemed Invested.
> 
> 2. *Dassault Aviation Company is not keen on transfer of technology, under the 50% offset clause. * and setting up production in India.
> 
> 3. Govt. of India had to WORK AROUND this reluctance and find a different solution.
> 
> 4. Snecma will now CLAIM credit of 1 billio $ after helping Kaveri come to fruition. This will not be any Actualy investment of 1 billion $ in Real money.
> 
> 
> 5. Dassault will be able to CLAIM 1 billion $ WHEN the Kaveri becomes ready after its help. So any actualy job creation will be only AFTER the Kaveri is compelted, Certified, Fitted on the aircraft, Aircraft then certified AND THEN when production begins. A good 8-10 years in the future.
> 
> 6. Production will be in HAL so any jobs created will be in HAL.
> 
> 7. MBDA will transfer tech to Astra and then Dassault can then CLAIM an offset of couple of hunder million $.
> 
> 8. Again ANY job creation will be AFTER the missile is tested, certified, accpted by AF and THEN productin beings. Only this job creation will ALSO be in Bharat Dynamics, another PSU.
> 
> 9. Spray Paint and coating technology will be transferd (Probably to HAL or maybe Reliance) and then Dassaut can again CLAIM offset for a coupld of hundred million $. Again NO ACTUAL INVESTMENT will be made by Dassault.
> 
> 10. All in all the 'Offset' will allow for limited Tech transfer but will result in MINIMAL Dassault money being invested in India. ANY and All investements will be by Indian companies.
> 
> 11. Any job creation will be in hundres not in thousands and most of them will be in PSU. Even then the priority will be to Re-Train existing staff, so it is unlikey any new jobs will be created.
> 
> 
> 12. These Offset will not be any real Monetary Investment, it will only be ToT of deemed equivalent and Claimed by Dassault.
> 
> 
> 13. *Finally This makes it perfectly clear that No more Rafale will be purchaased *. ALL ToT will be for existing Indian projects Like LCA, Astra and Kaveri (Maybe AURA), not to build any more Rafale.
> 
> 
> I hope NOW the 'fan boys' can get this through their thick skull and finally stop this public masturbation for more Rafales.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL.... NO MII of Rafale is going to happen. Ever.



money well spent as a gap-plugging interim measure without ToT


----------



## Agent_47

GoodKnight said:


> This is a classic case of people seeing what they want to see.
> 
> But these are what the article EXPLICITLY states.
> 
> 1. Of 7.87 Billion Euro, ONLY 3 Billion $ will be DEEMED invested in India. This is even less than 40%.* Its only 38%*. THIS is the real value of the Offset. (on paper). NOT Actually invested, ONLY Deemed Invested.
> 
> 2. *Dassault Aviation Company is not keen on transfer of technology, under the 50% offset clause. * and setting up production in India.
> 
> 3. Govt. of India had to WORK AROUND this reluctance and find a different solution.
> 
> 4. Snecma will now CLAIM credit of 1 billio $ after helping Kaveri come to fruition. This will not be any Actualy investment of 1 billion $ in Real money.
> 
> 
> 5. Dassault will be able to CLAIM 1 billion $ WHEN the Kaveri becomes ready after its help. So any actualy job creation will be only AFTER the Kaveri is compelted, Certified, Fitted on the aircraft, Aircraft then certified AND THEN when production begins. A good 8-10 years in the future.
> 
> 6. Production will be in HAL so any jobs created will be in HAL.
> 
> 7. MBDA will transfer tech to Astra and then Dassault can then CLAIM an offset of couple of hunder million $.
> 
> 8. Again ANY job creation will be AFTER the missile is tested, certified, accpted by AF and THEN productin beings. Only this job creation will ALSO be in Bharat Dynamics, another PSU.
> 
> 9. Spray Paint and coating technology will be transferd (Probably to HAL or maybe Reliance) and then Dassaut can again CLAIM offset for a coupld of hundred million $. Again NO ACTUAL INVESTMENT will be made by Dassault.
> 
> 10. All in all the 'Offset' will allow for limited Tech transfer but will result in MINIMAL Dassault money being invested in India. ANY and All investements will be by Indian companies.
> 
> 11. Any job creation will be in hundres not in thousands and most of them will be in PSU. Even then the priority will be to Re-Train existing staff, so it is unlikey any new jobs will be created.
> 
> 
> 12. These Offset will not be any real Monetary Investment, it will only be ToT of deemed equivalent and Claimed by Dassault.
> 
> 
> 13. *Finally This makes it perfectly clear that No more Rafale will be purchaased *. ALL ToT will be for existing Indian projects Like LCA, Astra and Kaveri (Maybe AURA), not to build any more Rafale.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope NOW the 'fan boys' can get this through their thick skull and finally stop this public masturbation for more Rafales.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL.... NO MII of Rafale is going to happen. Ever.




^^ Third account in a week ?!
You are so obsessed dude. Now, get a beer and chill.

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## Gessler

@PARIKRAMA 

Reading the posts above...

Do they ever stop...?

Nope! Results don't matter to them. Outcomes of their previous bouts of "skepticism" doesn't matter. Credibility doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that all the people who've been following the Rafale deal for the last couple of years are now well beyond the point of actually believing that any negative/down-scaling of the deal is going to happen now - and everyone has seen that the anti-Rafale junta is ridiculous & baseless.


When MMRCA was on, they said Rafale wouldn't even be considered for the shortlist.


When Rafale & Typhoon were shortlisted, they said there was no way that Rafale, which hadn't made any international sales by that time, can stand up to Typhoon which was already sold to 5-6 countries.


When Rafale was declared L-1 bidder, they were full-on crazy and started calling for cancellation of the whole deal. This was the time when all the rhetoric about MKI+Tejas removing the need for MRCA started gaining traction.


When MMRCA was called off, the junta had a brief moment of joy...


...until MoD started direct negotiations with Dassault. Removing any doubt in any sane person's head that IAF had found the Rafale to be adequate and wanted it. However the junta's relentless campaign against Raffy was adamant that the deal will not go through.


Then, the deal was signed. A part of the junta (the more self-respecting ones) disappeared. Now, the most vicious strain of the anti-Rafale junta remains - their tirade hasn't stopped. Now their argument is that the deal will stop at 36 and no more will be procured.

I can already see the future...


When MII happens (and it will), the junta will be engaged in finding holes in the whole program. They will be desperate beyond words...a delay in the progression of some subject? Rafale is a fail. Some worker at the MII factories was caught drunk? Rafale is a fail. Some equipment in the production line shorts out? Rafale is a fail.

Such will be their tactics.

I'm telling you - such dedication for springing dirt on a program for years & years...it cannot come from anyone's personal conclusions or some kind of weirdly vicious nationalism. No. There are economic interests behind this. However, most of the less-dedicated junta has washed away - now only the most cynical remain.

Each attack on IAF Rafale program from now on will be from this group - Pure, utterly dedicated, and completely rabid. However, it doesn't really matter. The deal is here to stay...and no sane Air Force with the size & requirements of IAF can afford to stop a procurement at just 36 planes...it doesn't make any sense from either a tactical perspective or economies-of-scale perspective.

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## BON PLAN

GoodKnight said:


> This is a classic case of people seeing what they want to see.
> 
> But these are what the article EXPLICITLY states.
> 
> 1. Of 7.87 Billion Euro, ONLY 3 Billion $ will be DEEMED invested in India. This is even less than 40%.* Its only 38%*. THIS is the real value of the Offset. (on paper). NOT Actually invested, ONLY Deemed Invested.
> 
> 2. *Dassault Aviation Company is not keen on transfer of technology, under the 50% offset clause. * and setting up production in India.
> 
> 3. Govt. of India had to WORK AROUND this reluctance and find a different solution.
> 
> 4. Snecma will now CLAIM credit of 1 billio $ after helping Kaveri come to fruition. This will not be any Actualy investment of 1 billion $ in Real money.
> 
> 
> 5. Dassault will be able to CLAIM 1 billion $ WHEN the Kaveri becomes ready after its help. So any actualy job creation will be only AFTER the Kaveri is compelted, Certified, Fitted on the aircraft, Aircraft then certified AND THEN when production begins. A good 8-10 years in the future.
> 
> 6. Production will be in HAL so any jobs created will be in HAL.
> 
> 7. MBDA will transfer tech to Astra and then Dassault can then CLAIM an offset of couple of hunder million $.
> 
> 8. Again ANY job creation will be AFTER the missile is tested, certified, accpted by AF and THEN productin beings. Only this job creation will ALSO be in Bharat Dynamics, another PSU.
> 
> 9. Spray Paint and coating technology will be transferd (Probably to HAL or maybe Reliance) and then Dassaut can again CLAIM offset for a coupld of hundred million $. Again NO ACTUAL INVESTMENT will be made by Dassault.
> 
> 10. All in all the 'Offset' will allow for limited Tech transfer but will result in MINIMAL Dassault money being invested in India. ANY and All investements will be by Indian companies.
> 
> 11. Any job creation will be in hundres not in thousands and most of them will be in PSU. Even then the priority will be to Re-Train existing staff, so it is unlikey any new jobs will be created.
> 
> 
> 12. These Offset will not be any real Monetary Investment, it will only be ToT of deemed equivalent and Claimed by Dassault.
> 
> 
> 13. *Finally This makes it perfectly clear that No more Rafale will be purchaased *. ALL ToT will be for existing Indian projects Like LCA, Astra and Kaveri (Maybe AURA), not to build any more Rafale.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope NOW the 'fan boys' can get this through their thick skull and finally stop this public masturbation for more Rafales.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL.... NO MII of Rafale is going to happen. Ever.


Dassault is "only" the airframe manufacturer.
You can't ask all from DA. Thales, Safran and MBDA has a lot of work to do for Offest deal. I say the main work.



GoodKnight said:


> Finally This makes it perfectly clear that No more Rafale will be purchaased


we have readen this kind of sentences too many times, even in the near past, about the first purchase of Rafale.

But at the end they were purchased these first 36 !!!

So it's only clear for YOU. Some others on this forum (and on other forums) and me, are thinking there will be some more batchs. 
Between you and me, don't you think strange india pay so much for plane accomodation and air bases upgrade only for 36 birds? it's only logical.

At least we won the first set (ie the first 36).

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## Taygibay

GoodKnight said:


> 1. Of 7.87 Billion Euro, ONLY 3 Billion $ will be DEEMED invested in India. This is even less than 40%.* Its only 38%*. THIS is the real value of the Offset. (on paper). NOT Actually invested, ONLY Deemed Invested.



Just so fools don't get trapped by knaves :
-No one gets 100% offsets because not all contract sums have offsets attached.​For instance, if you pay x dollars to have your own kit mounted,
that x amount does not bring offsets as well it shouldn't. Think of
this logically and compare with a car on which the dealer gives you
a rebate. If you then want oversize rims with fat tires and a sound
system that can jump start earthquakes, they'll add those but the
rebate won't apply.

Same thing here; no offsets on changes and adaptations nor on fuel
... ETC.

Funnily enough, there is one such character on nearly all fora since the
deal was confirmed even far from India. If one was to measure success
by the hatred generated, Rafale would beat X-wing fighters & Death Stars.





Great day all, Tay.

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## sathya

@Good night, even i was against Rafale initially and supported investing in lca , but See 36 samples helping lca get engine radar paint etc help. 

I have no regrets. 

When deal of MII goes through.. hopefully in parrikar s term, we will get lot of goodies that are actually quite useful.

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## GoodKnight

Taygibay said:


> Just so fools don't get trapped by knaves :
> -No one gets 100% offsets because not all contract sums have offsets attached.​For instance, if you pay x dollars to have your own kit mounted,
> that x amount does not bring offsets as well it shouldn't. Think of
> this logically and compare with a car on which the dealer gives you
> a rebate. If you then want oversize rims with fat tires and a sound
> system that can jump start earthquakes, they'll add those but the
> rebate won't apply.
> 
> Same thing here; no offsets on changes and adaptations nor on fuel
> ... ETC.
> 
> Funnily enough, there is one such character on nearly all fora since the
> deal was confirmed even far from India. If one was to measure success
> by the hatred generated, Rafale would beat X-wing fighters & Death Stars.
> 
> View attachment 342417​
> Great day all, Tay.



Its funny you should say that because even that 38% offset is NOT going to be in Investment. 

Its only going to be CLAIMED as offset for service rendered and technology offered. 

This service is not even going to be billed at a 1:1 Ratio. Dassault will very well claim 1.5, 2 or even 3 to 5 times the value of the technology in their offset claim. 

What is not clear is the Final DELIVERY that will constitute this 'offset' and what are the penalties that can be invoked for failure to full fill their end of the deal. 

For e.g. what constitutes a successful Kaveri ? What are the time lines committed by Dassault to make it flyable and reliable. What are the parameters by which 'success' will be measured ? What is the ratio of the offset claim ? What is the milestones for offset implementation ? 

Its better these things are in the open so that there will be no surprise when CAG publishes its report and catches everyone by surprise.



sathya said:


> @Good night, even i was against Rafale initially and supported investing in lca , but See 36 samples helping lca get engine radar paint etc help.
> 
> I have no regrets.
> 
> When deal of MII goes through.. hopefully in parrikar s term, we will get lot of goodies that are actually quite useful.



I have no regrets either, Its a good deal for India. Full mark to Parrikar and Modi for making this happen. I just hope they can now followup on the Offset and make sure that happens.


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## Taygibay

All offsets include coefficients and we explained that before.
You are looking for failure and expecting it from your writings.**
*
I prefer to work for and expect success.

GL Tay.
***Which by the way lack in logic : 
"... so that there will be no surprise when CAG publishes its report and catches everyone by surprise."​

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## Ankit Kumar 002

Taygibay said:


> All offsets include coefficients and we explained that before.
> You are looking for failure andsenndcting it from your writings.**
> *
> I prefer to work for and expect success.
> 
> GL Tay.
> ***Which by the way lack in logic :
> "... so that there will be no surprise when CAG publishes its report and catches everyone by surprise."​



There are two types of people
1. One who are ready to discuss.
2. Those who want you to believe what they do.

Its useless to reason out to the second type.
Let them go past...

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## GoodKnight

Taygibay said:


> All offsets include coefficients and we explained that before.
> You are looking for failure and expecting it from your writings.**
> *
> I prefer to work for and expect success.
> 
> GL Tay.
> ***Which by the way lack in logic :
> "... so that there will be no surprise when CAG publishes its report and catches everyone by surprise."​



These Multiples or coefficients you mention has not been released by any media or MoD statement. Its just speculation in pdf and as such is worth nothing. 

I expect Dassalut to play it smart by half as it has repeatedly shown itself capable to doing, and find reasons to delay the offset and contest the offset arbitration in time. 

The cost of the Mirage 2000 upgrade deal was a clear indicator to me about the way Dassaults angles to maximise profit and ignore the long game, not to mention its inability to work with HAL despite being its partner in Mirage 2000 upgrade. 

In absence of any clarity about the offset, CAG will be looking to find loopholes that will cost political mileage to the Modi govt. in the future. So I am sure the clarity WILL be provided by the GoI in the near future.


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## BON PLAN

GoodKnight said:


> I just saw a rat crawl out of a hole......I wish I had some cheese.
> 
> 
> 
> Thales, Safran and MBDA have their work cut out, but the offset credit will be claimed by Dassault.
> 
> 36+18 is the same as the Mirage 2000 deal in 1982 and you are witnessing History repeating itself. Back then it was a deal for 40 Mirages 2000.
> 
> Mirage 2000 was purchased to handle the pakistan (F-16), today Rafale is purchased to handle China. back then people dreamt of more Mirage 2000, today they dream of more Rafales.
> 
> French continue to make the same mistake and refuse to learn from the past. At least India learnt something from it and got a ToT commitment.
> 
> Maybe there is scope for a Indian Navy purchase. Let us see how that plays out in the future. DCNS just lost a lucrative Multi Billion $ deal for a repeat order of scorpene submarine, so I will not be holding my breath.


I'm sure the Rafale international team will make all the necessary efforts to fullfil the contract, and to pleased to the actual (and futur) main export customer of the bird.

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## Taygibay

DrSomnath999 said:


> yeah yeah we are fools wasting money to buy a plane for air shows only not nuclear deterrance



You just described most fighter buying nations! Canada, Sweden, Poland,
Brazil, all of the Arab states, Malaysia, Japan, Indonesia, Switzerland etc
calling them fools so that both them and I can tell you to keep your smilies ...



DrSomnath999 said:


> Really height of stupidity & naiveness from yourside



... insults and lack of logic to yourself hence, sorry!

Have a great life, Tay.

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## DrSomnath999

The problem with you my friend is you just can't understand my post & sorry I just can't help if you can't understand my post.

*CHEERS *


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## BON PLAN

DrSomnath999 said:


> french Mirage 2000N was intially armed with those kind of bombs for nuclear deterrrent as they carried a pair of AN.52 free-fall nuclear bombs before the ASMP was ready.


Are you sure?
1) two bombs means no external tanks (or a single small one on centerline)......
2) never read something or see Mirage 2000N in nuclear config without ASMP ....
3) ASMP was operationnal in 1986. At those time it was under Mirage 4. Mirage 2000N mk1 was ready in 1988, so after first AMPA ready.



GoodKnight said:


> That is yet to be seen. But safran have worked with the HAL before to make the shakti engine and HAL experience was not at all a happy one or as a satisfied customer.


Bro,
When you see the time it takes to HAL to developp your Tejas, you can have some questionning about the real skill of HAL.... isnt't it? 
Maybe it was not the entire fault of Safran....

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## BON PLAN

GoodKnight said:


> ..... who told you that its HAL who developed Tejas ?
> 
> HAL is only the Production Agency, not the developer. lol.
> 
> The fact remains that HAL designed the entire transmission themselves and has now conducted the first flight of the LUH without any help from Safran. In fact Safran came back to HAL with a reduced quote when HAL dumped them, but HAL rejected it. By then HAL had already made a judgement call about trusting Safran again.
> 
> And this is the end result,


OK.
I can make the same post about the ability of HAL the producer to made only 8 plane a year....

Why do you think Dassault didn't want to work with HAL when it was intended to produce 108 Rafale in India ? HAL is a lazy company.

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## GoodKnight

BON PLAN said:


> OK.
> I can make the same post about the ability of HAL the producer to made only 8 plane a year....
> 
> Why do you think Dassault didn't want to work with HAL when it was intended to produce 108 Rafale in India ? HAL is a lazy company.



You can make any number of foolish posts as you like, its a free forum. 

HAL can produce even 100 LCA per year if there is a demand. Its not a rocket science to increase the production line. Its a simple matter of finding the Optimum Production Level. Anyone with even a basic understanding of production will know this. 

Its HAL who refused to work with Dassault unless Dassault offers iron clad Guarantees. Only Dassault backed out of that. 

*HAL will go on to produce PAK FA, LCA, Dhruv, LUH, HAWK, Su 30 MKI ,IJT and Upgrade the Mig 29, Jaguar and Mirage 2000. *While Dassault won the MMRCA only to loose it due to its short slightness. 

So the evidence do not show HAL's laziness, its shows Dassaults stupidity.


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## Taygibay

Recently, insults gained a foothold in this thread.
It may be worth noting that

A- It is prohibited by forum rules :
*FORUM RULES AND REGULATIONS*

All users are expected to abide by our rules irrespective of their seniority/nationality/etc. _Inability_ to follow the rules not only can give you temporary bans but also permanent ones.
​*BE RESPECTFUL​*The purpose of the forum is to provide a platform for the exchange of ideas. Occasionally, there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Be courteous when disagreeing with others. It is possible to disagree without being insulting.
​*RANTING IS PROHIBITED​*A rant is a post which is long-winded, redundant and filled with angry, non-constructive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful, but rants are disruptive and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise, clear manner and avoid going off on rambling tangents.​*
PERSONAL ATTACKS ARE PROHIBITED​*Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts which are designed to personally berate or insult another. Text of this nature is not beneficial to the community spirit and will not be tolerated.
​*RACISM AND OTHER &#8220;&#8230;isms&#8221;.​*No racist posts are allowed or other posts that are designed to put people down based on their nationality/sex/color/creed/etc.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/forum-rules-and-regulations.92653/#ixzz4MlbpmgMv​B- Profanity almost always hides the inability to argue without it
either because the point is flawed or the individual is, i.e. a crutch!

Tay.

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## GuardianRED



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## Hellfire

@GuardianRED @GoodKnight 

I am sure you may have realised the thread has gone off topic here. May I request you to delete/edit your posts suitably and try and keep this thread on track?

@WAJsal request suitable action.

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## The Eagle

Taygibay said:


> Recently, insults gained a foothold in this thread.



Sir, reporting button can do wonders in such cases where the habitual cannot refrain from such offense and debate. Just report and let the Mods handle the same. 

Have a great time, Sir.

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## DrSomnath999

BON PLAN said:


> Are you sure?
> 1) two bombs means no external tanks (or a single small one on centerline)......
> 2) never read something or see Mirage 2000N in nuclear config without ASMP ....
> 3) ASMP was operationnal in 1986. At those time it was under Mirage 4. Mirage 2000N mk1 was ready in 1988, so after first AMPA ready.
> 
> 
> .


The first batch of 30 aircraft for the French Air Force had a sole nuclear capability, and these were designated *Mirage 2000N-K1*. These did not have the Spirale chaff system, and carried a pair of AN.52 free-fall nuclear bombs before the ASMP was ready.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_2000N/2000D






https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN-52_bomb
http://www.network54.com/Forum/211833/message/1253238384
*CHEERS*


----------



## CNL-PN-AA

I confirm that Mirage 2000N never carried AN-52 bombs. Dixit my uncle who is a 5 star general, former commander of the Force Aérienne TACtique ( FATAC ) and Mirage IIIE/2000N pilot.

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## BON PLAN

GoodKnight said:


> You can make any number of foolish posts as you like, its a free forum.
> 
> HAL can produce even 100 LCA per year if there is a demand. Its not a rocket science to increase the production line. Its a simple matter of finding the Optimum Production Level. Anyone with even a basic understanding of production will know this.
> 
> Its HAL who refused to work with Dassault unless Dassault offers iron clad Guarantees. Only Dassault backed out of that.
> 
> *HAL will go on to produce PAK FA, LCA, Dhruv, LUH, HAWK, Su 30 MKI ,IJT and Upgrade the Mig 29, Jaguar and Mirage 2000. *While Dassault won the MMRCA only to loose it due to its short slightness.
> 
> So the evidence do not show HAL's laziness, its shows Dassaults stupidity.


My dear, 
The results of HAL are more than enough to prove what I say. 
Recall me when HAL will have made more than 15 Tejas/year.... 
Have a good day.



DrSomnath999 said:


> The first batch of 30 aircraft for the French Air Force had a sole nuclear capability, and these were designated *Mirage 2000N-K1*. These did not have the Spirale chaff system, and carried a pair of AN.52 free-fall nuclear bombs before the ASMP was ready.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_2000N/2000D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN-52_bomb
> http://www.network54.com/Forum/211833/message/1253238384
> *CHEERS*


Wikipedia is sometimes not a true source. Mainly when it's in english for a french subject (with no offense).
I will check some of my contacts about that (some are old french pilots).
But no one have seen 2 nuclear equipment in France under a sole fighter....specially free bomb. see Rafale : it can easily take 2 x ASMP-A but it's not the case. Never.

I will came back later with the answer.



DrSomnath999 said:


> The first batch of 30 aircraft for the French Air Force had a sole nuclear capability, and these were designated *Mirage 2000N-K1*. These did not have the Spirale chaff system, and carried a pair of AN.52 free-fall nuclear bombs before the ASMP was ready.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_2000N/2000D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN-52_bomb
> http://www.network54.com/Forum/211833/message/1253238384
> *CHEERS*


A first pre answer .... from Wikipedia in french

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-sol_moyenne_portée

Poursuite du programme
En 1977, l'Aérospatiale, répondant à un appel d'offres de la Direction technique des engins propose un missile doté d'un statoréacteur à accélérateur intégré. En 1978, l'Aérospatiale est choisie pour développer l'ASMP en vue d'une utilisation sur Mirage 2000. L'année suivante la décision est prise de l'adapter en priorité sur le Mirage IV en vue d'une utilisation stratégique. Et en 1980, il est décidé de doter la Marine nationale d'une capacité pré-stratégique en adaptant l'ASMP sur le Super Étendard. La mise en production de série intervient à la fin de l'année 1983. La mise en service du premier escadron sur Mirage IV intervient le 1er mai 1986, celui sur Mirage 2000 le 1er juillet 1988 et enfin la mise en service sur Super Étendard, le 1er juin 1989.

Continuation of the program 
In 1977, Aerospatiale, responding to a call for tender for the equipment of the Technical Direction offers a missile with an integrated accelerator ramjet. In 1978, *Aerospatial was chosen to develop the ASMP for use on Mirage 2000*. The following year it was decided to adapt priority on the Mirage IV for strategic use. And in 1980, it was decided to equip the Navy with a pre-strategic capability by adapting the ASMP on the Super Etendard. Series production start comes at the end of 1983. The commissioning of the first squadron of Mirage IV shall be 1 May 1986 and* the Mirage 2000 on 1 July 1988* and finally commissioning on Super Etendard, 1 June 1989.

And first *commissioning of Mirage 2000N is 1988*

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## Taygibay

@The Eagle I know about reporting posts, my good mate!

But I think that all members of a society are tasked with maintaining it,
all those that can at least. Plus, posting the rules can't hurt as it seems
that a few of our colleagues skipped reading them upon arrival on PDF.

The very fact that Hellfire and you completed my remark with your calls
should show our new and exalted _co-forumers_ that our community wants
conversations to be reasonably free of excess noise and that temper
tantrums are unwelcome; that to graduate to the adults' table for Sunday,
Saturday or Friday main meal and conversation, one has to act like one.

Moderation, which I know well as I did that online and IRL, can always do
its bit on the recalcitrants, on those that cannot self-correct their course or
take hints.

In military context, it's akin to that shot right in front of the feet of an advancing menace. Plus,
SF mindset says that reporting to mods is like calling for CAS : admitting failure, as you were
supposed to go quick and unseen. 

Anyway, all the best to you and I'll be back with
a translated piece later if not beaten to it, Tay.




​

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## Ankit Kumar 002

@PARIKRAMA 

Any update , if anything related to Rafale or MII Fighter jet was up for discussion in the cabinet meeting ?


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## Taygibay

*The Rafale is good business for Reliance ADA.*

Anil Dhirubhai Ambani, Reliance ADA's big boss, is rubbing his hands with glee.
Monday October 3rd, his Reliance Infrastructure division, listed on the Bombay
stock exchange, announced the creation of a joint venture with Dassault Aviation
inder the name Dassault Reliance Aerospace ( DRA ). Its shares' worth jumped 8%.

The new company intends to be a "key player" of upcoming investments by the
French plane maker in India. In exchange for the biggest order ever registered by
the Rafale on the export market -36 firm order-, Dassault in fact agreed to return
half of the contract value ( 590 B rupees or almost 8B € ) locally.

In transfers of technology for a part, under guise of contribution to the Defense Re-
search and Development Organisation of the Indian defence ministry, which is no-
tably working on a relaunch of its Kaveri program, a turbojet engine originally inten-
ded for the Tejas fighter. Further, the deal includes all sorts of industrial returns known
as offsets. DRA is thus hoping to garner in 7 years a turnover of 218 billion rupees
( 2,93 billion Euros ). That volume of activity could provide work for about 200 sub-
contractors, generating 1,500 direct jobs and 9,000 ones in indirect employment.

*Elements assembled in Nagpur*

Finding out about these previsions, the public enterprise Hindustan Aeronautics Limited
( HAL ) has cause for frowning as it initially expected to get a cut. In a first draft by the
previous government, under the Congress Party, the Rafale deal was for 126 machines,
108 of which assembled on Indian soil in the HAL workshops of Bangalore in Karnataka.
Begun in 2012, that projected deal fell apart 3 years later.

It is then in Nagpur that some parts for the Rafale will be born. A place laden with sym-
bolism : third city in the state of Maharashtra the capital of which is Bombay, this 2,4 m
people town center is smack in the middle of the sub-continent and made itself famous
with its orange trees and coal mines. But it is especially the birthplace of the present head
of the local government and the home of Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh ( national vo-
lunteers corps ), the paramilitary hindi movement out of which the Bharatiya Janata Party
( BJP / Indian People Party ), Prime Minister Narendra Modi's political group.

Reliance ADA has already taken preparatory steps : the group acquired a 117 hectares
piece of land nearby the multi-modal airport platform of Nagpur on which it plans to build
a 400 000 square meters factory. Although the production of the 36 Rafales is to take place
at Mérignac, in Gironde, the Indian Air Force settling for an off-the-shelf deal, the DRA J-V.
thinks it can build pieces of the mainframe, many engine elements and some of the embar-
ked electronics in Nagpur. It has launch recruitment for a CEO with 7 candidates already
vying for it. According to a source close to the action mentioned in the economics daily Mint,
" ... activity should start a year from now" .

*Credibility at play*

In its association with Dassault Aviation, Reliance ADA is putting its trustworthiness at risk.
The group was formed in 2005 after a split of the Ambani brothers regarding inheritance.
Mukesh, the eldest, is India's richest man with a net worth estimated by Forbes magazine
at 20,9 billion dollars ( 18,7 B € ). He is head of Reliance Industries Limited, a conglomerate
that is striking gold in the petrochemical industry but also in distribution and, since September,
in telecommunications as Jio. Steering the Reliance ADA ship is the youngest brother Anil
also present in telecoms and energy as well as media, public works and construction. He is
given for a thousand billion rupees in turnover (13,4 billion € ) with a 100 000 strong workforce.

It was only in January 2015 that Reliance ADA invested in defense business by buying Pipavav
Defence and Offshore Engineering, a company active in aeronautics, submarines, warships &
oil drilling platforms. Since rechristened Reliance Defence and Engineering, it is also listed in
Bombay's S.E.

Tay transl.

http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/arti...-groupe-indien-reliance-ada_5008423_3234.html

As promised and good day all, Tay.

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## Indiran Chandiran

Taygibay said:


> *The Rafale is good business for Reliance ADA.*
> 
> Anil Dhirubhai Ambani, Reliance ADA's big boss, is rubbing his hands with glee.
> Monday October 3rd, his Reliance Infrastructure division, listed on the Bombay
> stock exchange, announced the creation of a joint venture with Dassault Aviation
> inder the name Dassault Reliance Aerospace ( DRA ). Its shares' worth jumped 8%.
> 
> The new company intends to be a "key player" of upcoming investments by the
> French plane maker in India. In exchange for the biggest order ever registered by
> the Rafale on the export market -36 firm order-, Dassault in fact agreed to return
> half of the contract value ( 590 B rupees or almost 8B € ) locally.
> 
> In transfers of technology for a part, under guise of contribution to the Defense Re-
> search and Development Organisation of the Indian defence ministry, which is no-
> tably working on a relaunch of its Kaveri program, a turbojet engine originally inten-
> ded for the Tejas fighter. Further, the deal includes all sorts of industrial returns known
> as offsets. DRA is thus hoping to garner in 7 years a turnover of 218 billion rupees
> ( 2,93 billion Euros ). That volume of activity could provide work for about 200 sub-
> contractors, generating 1,500 direct jobs and 9,000 ones in indirect employment.
> 
> *Elements assembled in Nagpur*
> 
> Finding out about these previsions, the public enterprise Hindustan Aeronautics Limited
> ( HAL ) has cause for frowning as it initially expected to get a cut. In a first draft by the
> previous government, under the Congress Party, the Rafale deal was for 126 machines,
> 108 of which assembled on Indian soil in the HAL workshops of Bangalore in Karnataka.
> Begun in 2012, that projected deal fell apart 3 years later.
> 
> It is then in Nagpur that some parts for the Rafale will be born. A place laden with sym-
> bolism : third city in the state of Maharashtra the capital of which is Bombay, this 2,4 m
> people town center is smack in the middle of the sub-continent and made itself famous
> with its orange trees and coal mines. But it is especially the birthplace of the present head
> of the local government and the home of Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh ( national vo-
> lunteers corps ), the paramilitary hindi movement out of which the Bharatiya Janata Party
> ( BJP / Indian People Party ), Prime Minister Narendra Modi's political group.
> 
> Reliance ADA has already taken preparatory steps : the group acquired a 117 hectares
> piece of land nearby the multi-modal airport platform of Nagpur on which it plans to build
> a 400 000 square meters factory. Although the production of the 36 Rafales is to take place
> at Mérignac, in Gironde, the Indian Air Force settling for an off-the-shelf deal, the DRA J-V.
> thinks it can build pieces of the mainframe, many engine elements and some of the embar-
> ked electronics in Nagpur. It has launch recruitment for a CEO with 7 candidates already
> vying for it. According to a source close to the action mentioned in the economics daily Mint,
> " ... activity should start a year from now" .
> 
> *Credibility at play*
> 
> In its association with Dassault Aviation, Reliance ADA is putting its trustworthiness at risk.
> The group was formed in 2005 after a split of the Ambani brothers regarding inheritance.
> Mukesh, the eldest, is India's richest man with a net worth estimated by Forbes magazine
> at 20,9 billion dollars ( 18,7 B € ). He is head of Reliance Industries Limited, a conglomerate
> that is striking gold in the petrochemical industry but also in distribution and, since September,
> in telecommunications as Jio. Steering the Reliance ADA ship is the youngest brother Anil
> also present in telecoms and energy as well as media, public works and construction. He is
> given for a thousand billion rupees in turnover (13,4 billion € ) with a 100 000 strong workforce.
> 
> It was only in January 2015 that Reliance ADA invested in defense business by buying Pipavav
> Defence and Offshore Engineering, a company active in aeronautics, submarines, warships &
> oil drilling platforms. Since rechristened Reliance Defence and Engineering, it is also listed in
> Bombay's S.E.
> 
> Tay transl.
> 
> http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/arti...-groupe-indien-reliance-ada_5008423_3234.html
> 
> As promised and good day all, Tay.




Why is it that we Indians are always doomed to choose between the bad & the worst ? I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that piece of news .In 15 years & I'm willing to bet the last rupee in my wallet & bank , we'd be heaping abuses on Reliance the way we do on HAL today.For not too many different reasons too.Mark my words.

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## jha

^^^ Have heard some good things about the shipyard they took over. It seems they have really fine tuned the work culture there and are delivering before schedule.

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## Indiran Chandiran

jha said:


> ^^^ Have heard some good things about the shipyard they took over. It seems they have really fine tuned the work culture there and are delivering before schedule.




Professional competency does not mitigate political or financial skullduggery.That's the larger point I was striving to make.


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## Taygibay

Indiran Chandiran said:


> Professional competency does not mitigate political or financial skullduggery.



All big economies and most democracies suffer from it.
In America, it's SuperPACs and lobbying, In France it's
_les affaires_, etc.

Fixing the first part depends on the morality of politicians
& corporations so don't hold your breath but the second
could be minimized with proper laws.

Judging from history and my knowledge of humans, I'd
strongly suggest going to the next item on your To Do list
and coming back to this one once the rest is done.

Just sayin', Tay.

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## Indiran Chandiran

Taygibay said:


> All big economies and most democracies suffer from it.
> In America, it's SuperPACs and lobbying, In France it's
> _les affaires_, etc.
> 
> Fixing the first part depends on the morality of politicians
> & corporations so don't hold your breath but the second
> could be minimized with proper laws.
> 
> Judging from history and my knowledge of humans, I'd
> strongly suggest going to the next item on your To Do list
> and coming back to this one once the rest is done.
> 
> Just sayin', Tay.




Sadly , what you say is true.The more things change the more the remain the same.

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## DrSomnath999

CNL-PN-AA said:


> I confirm that Mirage 2000N never carried AN-52 bombs. Dixit my uncle who is a 5 star general, former commander of the Force Aérienne TACtique ( FATAC ) and Mirage IIIE/2000N pilot.


It was primarily built for mirage III basically, it was kept for interim purpose for Mirage 2000 N 1 version till Asmp was developed.

So it never carried the bomb as there was no need for that though wiki claimed it did carry but yes wiki can't be trusted
*CHEERS *


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## IblinI

KinleyMan said:


> This is the current HAL production output,
> 
> Su30MKI per year - 12
> HAWK per year - 18
> Dornier 228 per year - 6 (reduced production)
> LCA - 12 ( to be increased to 16)
> Dhruv - 25 (to be increased to 60)
> Cheetah - 12 (total 246)
> Chetak - 12 (total 336)
> Lancer - 4
> 
> That is a total Production of almost 100 aircrafts per Year. This is set to increase considerably in the near future.
> 
> Besides that it also produces the following,
> 
> LCH - (600 in 15 years)
> 
> LUH - (trial/certification model)
> 
> IJT - (trial/certification model)
> 
> Rustom (UAV)
> 
> Nishant (UAV)
> 
> Saras (trial/certification model)
> 
> PSLV - Heat Shield Assembly, Nose Cone Assembly and Tank
> 
> GLSV - Heat Shield Assembly, Nose Cone Assembly and Tank
> 
> Satellites - Shrouds used in Satellites.
> 
> Turbine Engines for IN ships.
> 
> Engines for all the above mentioned Aircraft's and Helicopters.
> 
> 
> Its one thing to do propaganda, quite another to believe in your own propaganda.


With all due respect, the list you made doesn't look that impressive.


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## BON PLAN

KinleyMan said:


> This is the current HAL production output,
> 
> Su30MKI per year - 12
> HAWK per year - 18
> Dornier 228 per year - 6 (reduced production)
> LCA - 12 ( to be increased to 16)
> Dhruv - 25 (to be increased to 60)
> Cheetah - 12 (total 246)
> Chetak - 12 (total 336)
> Lancer - 4
> 
> That is a total Production of almost 100 aircrafts per Year. This is set to increase considerably in the near future.
> 
> Besides that it also produces the following,
> 
> LCH - (600 in 15 years)
> 
> LUH - (trial/certification model)
> 
> IJT - (trial/certification model)
> 
> Rustom (UAV)
> 
> Nishant (UAV)
> 
> Saras (trial/certification model)
> 
> PSLV - Heat Shield Assembly, Nose Cone Assembly and Tank
> 
> GLSV - Heat Shield Assembly, Nose Cone Assembly and Tank
> 
> Satellites - Shrouds used in Satellites.
> 
> Turbine Engines for IN ships.
> 
> Engines for all the above mentioned Aircraft's and Helicopters.
> 
> 
> Its one thing to do propaganda, quite another to believe in your own propaganda.


1) How many employees in HAL ?
2) as said, call me back when more than 15 tejas/year will be produce. It's not made.



DrSomnath999 said:


> It was primarily built for mirage III basically, it was kept for interim purpose for Mirage 2000 N 1 version till Asmp was developed.
> 
> So it never carried the bomb as there was no need for that though wiki claimed it did carry but yes wiki can't be trusted
> *CHEERS *


Wiki can be fullfilled by everyone.
On a very special and precise subject, you must be very cautius with foreign langage article. It's the case.

If you read a Wiki article in french about Super Hornet and another in english, the price of the plane is not the same.....


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## ashok321

*Thales targeting pod integrated, tested on Rafale fighter








http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Se...rated-tested-on-Rafale-fighter/3311476678448/*

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## Avyator

So we're definitely going for MII right? Roughly 200 Rafales for IAF and about 50 for Naval Air Arm, if I'm not mistaken?


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## ashok321

*Rafale aerostructures to be made in Mihan-SEZ*






http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...be-made-in-mihan-sez/articleshow/54926499.cms

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## debspark90

@PARIKRAMA 
Any new update on the MII aspect of the Rafales and is the new Single engine LWF tender gonna effect the further numbers of Rafale or Tejas follow ons (if possible) ??
I mean what if the remaining MMRCA is overlapped by a LWF category ? 
Reply



ashok321 said:


> *Rafale aerostructures to be made in Mihan-SEZ*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...be-made-in-mihan-sez/articleshow/54926499.cms



Now this looks very promising towards the MII prospect for the follow on orders for IAF and IN if needed.


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## BON PLAN

Avyator said:


> So we're definitely going for MII right? Roughly 200 Rafales for IAF and about 50 for Naval Air Arm, if I'm not mistaken?


It's not made !
Dassault probably work hard for it, but the last word is for the Indian side. And it's not the time.


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## BON PLAN

The Eurofighter, seen from russia....

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## Avyator

BON PLAN said:


> The Eurofighter, seen from russia....



I find it hilarious how you guys pulled out of the massive Eurofighter project, designed an *almost* identical aircraft, and ended up making a superior plane; all by yourselves. Kudos to France.

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## BON PLAN

Avyator said:


> I find it hilarious how you guys pulled out of the massive Eurofighter project, designed an *almost* identical aircraft, and ended up making a superior plane; all by yourselves. Kudos to France.


The EF was made to face the SU27, and only that : a pure fighter.
The French wanted a multirole fighter. And the skill of Dassault is huge. Specially with delta wings. 
And you see the result.

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## Avyator

BON PLAN said:


> The EF was made to face the SU27, and only that : a pure fighter.
> The French wanted a multirole fighter. And the skill of Dassault is huge. Specially with delta wings.
> And you see the result.



Absolutely, Dassault is a phenomenal company. By the way, why is it that we haven't seen Dassault working on any 5th Gen fighters yet? It doesn't seem like France will go for the F 35, so what's the plan for the future?

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## Picdelamirand-oil

Avyator said:


> Absolutely, Dassault is a phenomenal company. By the way, why is it that we haven't seen Dassault working on any 5th Gen fighters yet? It doesn't seem like France will go for the F 35, so what's the plan for the future?


5th generation is a Lockheed marketing term. What is important is not stealth but survivability, and we (French and Dassault) think that Rafale is as survivable as F-35 will be when truly operational.
In term of stealth alone Bruno Revelin Falcoz did say :


> Of course we are in areas somewhat confidential, but we can say that the front view signature of a Rafale is the signature of a sparrow.


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/page-5#ixzz4Nue8UJWV

Not so bad?

Currently the RCS of Rafale is 0.06 m^2 with a first level of active cancellation (Dassault said 1/10 to 1/20 of a Mirage 2000 (0.8m^2)).

The PEA DEDIRA will improve it to the level claimed by Revellin-Falcoz
It will be inducted with F3R. DEDIRA is already working on the B301 Rafale.

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## newindiandefence

What would be RCS level in F3r model?


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## randomradio

newindiandefence said:


> What would be RCS level in F3r model?



RCS of a sparrow, so about 0.0005m2 in the X band. Theoretically I suppose.

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## #hydra#

BON PLAN said:


> *The EF was made to face the SU27, and only that : a pure fighter*.


Yet partially successful, can't match 35s.



Avyator said:


> Absolutely, Dassault is a phenomenal company. By the way, why is it that we haven't seen Dassault working on any 5th Gen fighters yet? It doesn't seem like France will go for the F 35, so what's the plan for the future?


Gen 5 is actually a gen4 fighter with stealth, thats what USAF thinks.



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> 5th generation is a Lockheed marketing term. What is important is not stealth but survivability, and we (French and Dassault) think that Rafale is as survivable as F-35 will be when truly operational.
> In term of stealth alone Bruno Revelin Falcoz did say :
> 
> Source: https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/page-5#ixzz4Nue8UJWV
> 
> Not so bad?
> 
> Currently the RCS of Rafale is 0.06 m^2 with a first level of active cancellation (Dassault said 1/10 to 1/20 of a Mirage 2000 (0.8m^2)).
> 
> The PEA DEDIRA will improve it to the level claimed by Revellin-Falcoz
> It will be inducted with F3R. DEDIRA is already working on the B301 Rafale.


I don't know how true it is,but i think it will be the biggest mistake of iaf if we didn't induct the rafis in large number, similar mistake we have done earlier by not accepting soviets offer on mig29s.

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## debspark90

#hydra# said:


> I don't know how true it is,but i think it will be the biggest mistake of iaf if we didn't induct the rafis in large number, similar mistake we have done earlier by not accepting soviets offer on mig29s.



Exactly thats my concern and I hope this single engine figter tender doesn't screw up that hope. Wheras Dassault have themselves said would work on making Tejas better by giving Radar, Engine, Stealth an sensors and also the same for AMCA as well.

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## BON PLAN

#hydra# said:


> Yet partially successful, can't match 35s.


Su35 wasn't born when EF was on the drawing board.

And what's so different between a Su35 and a Su27 or Su30 ??? 
It's a different name but quite the same bird. It's more like a F16 bk50 versus a bk40 than a F16 vs a F5.



#hydra# said:


> Gen 5 is actually a gen4 fighter with stealth, thats what USAF thinks.


No. That's what Lockeed Martin propaganda said.
An the LM propaganda change smoothly.... At the beginning a LM'5th gen was a plane with supercruise capability, VLO, highly maneuvrable and with sensor fusion.

For the F35 needs, the supercruise capability was removed. As probably the highly maneuvrability very soon.

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## Dem!god

At most India will go for 18 more Rafael. I don don't see many more Rafael coming to india due to it's high price tag. We certainly can't afford such costly plane in large no. 
But I think even 54 will be detrimental in war scenarios.

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## Gessler

Dem!god said:


> At most India will go for 18 more Rafael. I don don't see many more Rafael coming to india due to it's high price tag. We certainly can't afford such costly plane in large no.
> But I think even 54 will be detrimental in war scenarios.



You're not getting it.

Even single-engine Western 4.5 gen planes like Gripen cost nearly as much as Rafale on a per-unit flyaway basis. When this is the case - you have two logical options. 1) Buy a single type in large numbers or 2) Don't buy any at all. You think having a large fleet of Rafale is costly? Buying small numbers of two different types will be equally costly and will actually cost more time & money for logistics in the long run.

Economies of scale.

If at all a 3rd type of MRCA (other than Tejas & Rafale) is to be procured, it will be procured in it's own right - not as a stop-gap measure to fulfill the numbers that would otherwise be filled by Rafale. 36 or 36+18 for IAF does not make any sense from either a tactical or economic perspective. This is only the first, off-the-shelf batch.

We cannot replace 130+ Jaguars and ~100 MiG-27s with 36-54 Rafales and still be able to reach the squadron-strength requirements mandated by IAF as necessary if we are to meet our perceived threats.

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## Dem!god

Gessler said:


> You're not getting it.
> 
> Even single-engine Western 4.5 gen planes like Gripen cost nearly as much as Rafale on a per-unit flyaway basis. When this is the case - you have two logical options. 1) Buy a single type in large numbers or 2) Don't buy any at all. You think having a large fleet of Rafale is costly? Buying small numbers of two different types will be equally costly and will actually cost more time & money for logistics in the long run.
> 
> Economies of scale.
> 
> If at all a 3rd type of MRCA (other than Tejas & Rafale) is to be procured, it will be procured in it's own right - not as a stop-gap measure to fulfill the numbers that would otherwise be filled by Rafale. 36 or 36+18 for IAF does not make any sense from either a tactical or economic perspective. This is only the first, off-the-shelf batch.
> 
> We cannot replace 130+ Jaguars and ~100 MiG-27s with 36-54 Rafales and still be able to reach the squadron-strength requirements mandated by IAF as necessary if we are to meet our perceived threats.


I do understand bro what you are saying, but we have limited defence budget. It is poor choice of IAF in the past that is making it suffer (and govt too.) Only logical choice for IAF is to rely on home grown fighter and invest in LCA and AMCA. How could we have afforded 126 Rafael with 30 billion $ + bill. We have other project like FGFA ,updating sukhoi to super sukhoi, helicopters, plane mounted radars etc. We need to be realistic when looking into our options. 
For MRCA deal india should have gone with only one type of aircraft. If Rafael were too costly india should have dropped it and choose the next best one that fit in out budget. 
If IAF want to have the sanctioned strength of 42 + squadrons then it must be fulfilled by our own platforms. It must invest in home grown jets and accept it's responsibility too. Defence is important but there are many other areas which need investment and care from government on priority basis.

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## Avyator

One thing I'm not understanding, that nobody seems to answer so far, is why are we going for a second MII LWF line? Why can't we just focus on mass producing Tejas?

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## BON PLAN

Dem!god said:


> I do understand bro what you are saying, but we have limited defence budget. It is poor choice of IAF in the past that is making it suffer (and govt too.) Only logical choice for IAF is to rely on home grown fighter and invest in LCA and AMCA. How could we have afforded 126 Rafael with 30 billion $ + bill. We have other project like FGFA ,updating sukhoi to super sukhoi, helicopters, plane mounted radars etc. We need to be realistic when looking into our options.
> For MRCA deal india should have gone with only one type of aircraft. If Rafael were too costly india should have dropped it and choose the next best one that fit in out budget.
> If IAF want to have the sanctioned strength of 42 + squadrons then it must be fulfilled by our own platforms. It must invest in home grown jets and accept it's responsibility too. Defence is important but there are many other areas which need investment and care from government on priority basis.


Once you have paid for quite all fixed prices for Rafale (2 bases accomodations, new weapons + new pod + new helmet + .... adaptation), the price of a Rafale is "only" 95 euros millions.
And india has already purchased these fixed costs.

A new plane? => nearly 2 billions new fixed costs more.



Avyator said:


> One thing I'm not understanding, that nobody seems to answer so far, is why are we going for a second MII LWF line? Why can't we just focus on mass producing Tejas?


You're right !

I think it's a politic and diplomatic gesticulation.

Politic : to put pressure on HAL (and on Dassault !)

Diplomatic : we never know, if SAAB or LM make a wonderfull and very cheap deal ....

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## dadeechi

#hydra# said:


> I don't know how true it is,but i think it will be the biggest mistake of iaf if we didn't induct the rafis in large number, similar mistake we have done earlier by not accepting soviets offer on mig29s.



And the Mrage-2K deal too.



BON PLAN said:


> Once you have paid for quite all fixed prices for Rafale (2 bases accomodations, new weapons + new pod + new helmet + .... adaptation), the price of a Rafale is "only" 95 euros millions.
> And india has already purchased these fixed costs.
> 
> A new plane? => nearly 2 billions new fixed costs more.



This is the piece that many people seem to overlook and are prorating cost of 36 to 126.



Dem!god said:


> I do understand bro what you are saying, but we have limited defence budget. It is poor choice of IAF in the past that is making it suffer (and govt too.) Only logical choice for IAF is to rely on home grown fighter and invest in LCA and AMCA. How could we have afforded 126 Rafael with 30 billion $ + bill. We have other project like FGFA ,updating sukhoi to super sukhoi, helicopters, plane mounted radars etc. We need to be realistic when looking into our options.
> For MRCA deal india should have gone with only one type of aircraft. If Rafael were too costly india should have dropped it and choose the next best one that fit in out budget.
> If IAF want to have the sanctioned strength of 42 + squadrons then it must be fulfilled by our own platforms. It must invest in home grown jets and accept it's responsibility too. Defence is important but there are many other areas which need investment and care from government on priority basis.




Another 90 RAFALEs would be in the range of $10 billion and not $30 Billion.

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## Taygibay

Decide on MII quickly because China has its eyes on the Raffy too :





​ Tay -----» [ ]

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## dadeechi

#hydra# said:


> I don't know how true it is,but i think it will be the biggest mistake of iaf if we didn't induct the rafis in large number, similar mistake we have done earlier by not accepting soviets offer on mig29s.





debspark90 said:


> Exactly thats my concern and I hope this single engine figter tender doesn't screw up that hope. Wheras Dassault have themselves said would work on making Tejas better by giving Radar, Engine, Stealth an sensors and also the same for AMCA as well.



India needs 850 Fighters for the desired 42 Squadrons.

If we take out 300 SU-30 MKI, we still need 550 fighters

Tejas, Gripen, & FGFA would be available only in 2024 and later

Only F-16s and RAFALEs are available immediately to fulfill in the numbers starting 2018.



Taygibay said:


> Decide on MII quickly because China has its eyes on the Raffy too :
> 
> View attachment 345976
> ​ Tay -----» [ ]



China would not buy 100s like India. At most they would get a squadron or two to help reverse engineer like they are doing with SU-35s.

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## Dem!god

dadeechi said:


> And the Mrage-2K deal too.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the piece that many people seem to overlook and are prorating cost of 36 to 126.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another 90 RAFALEs would be in the range of $10 billion and not $30 Billion.


That doesn't seem the case otherwise govt would have gone ahead with 126 Rafael. There would have been no need for second MRCA.


----------



## GURU DUTT

dadeechi said:


> India needs 850 Fighters for the desired 42 Squadrons.
> 
> If we take out 300 SU-30 MKI, we still need 550 fighters
> 
> Tejas, Gripen, & FGFA would be available only in 2024 and later
> 
> Only F-16s and RAFALEs are available immediately to fulfill in the numbers starting 2018.
> 
> 
> 
> China would not buy 100s like India. At most they would get a squadron or two to help reverse engineer like they are doing with SU-35s.


270+42 MKI(super sukhoi) = 312 (17.3 squads) (18 jets per squad )
36+126 rafale =162 =9 squads (18 jets per squad )
126 F16 = 7 squads (18 jets per squad )
63 Fulkrums =3.5 squads (18 jets per squad )
52M2k=2.8 squads (18 jets per squad )
126=jags= 7 squads (18 jets per squad )
126=Bisons=7squads (18 jets per squad )
40+80 Tejas=6 (20 jets)

thats approx 59.6 squads most of them accept bisons with AESA Radar and long range BVR and latest HMDS and HOBS combo with all the bells and whistels associated with 4.5 gen fighter jet so i guess we are pretty solid placed till AMCA & PAKFA-FGFA come from 2025 to 2030


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## dadeechi

Dem!god said:


> That doesn't seem the case otherwise govt would have gone ahead with 126 Rafael. There would have been no need for second MRCA.



Well, the government is following the concept of "privatize profits socialize losses"

The deal for 36 is doing all the heavy lifting so that the private player part of the MII would only have the profits.



GURU DUTT said:


> 270+42 MKI(super sukhoi) = 312 (17.3 squads) (18 jets per squad )
> 36+126 rafale =162 =9 squads (18 jets per squad )
> 126 F16 = 7 squads (18 jets per squad )
> 63 Fulkrums =3.5 squads (18 jets per squad )
> 52M2k=2.8 squads (18 jets per squad )
> 126=jags= 7 squads (18 jets per squad )
> 126=Bisons=7squads (18 jets per squad )
> 40+80 Tejas=6 (20 jets)
> 
> thats approx 59.6 squads most of them accept bisons with AESA Radar and long range BVR and latest HMDS and HOBS combo with all the bells and whistels associated with 4.5 gen fighter jet so i guess we are pretty solid placed till AMCA & PAKFA-FGFA come from 2025 to 2030



It would be like the below

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## GURU DUTT

dadeechi said:


> Well, the government is following the concept of "privatize profits socialize losses"
> 
> The deal for 36 is doing all the heavy lifting so that the private player part of the MII would only have the profits.
> 
> 
> 
> It would be like the below
> 
> View attachment 345982


pretty much close but dont forget to include or write off jags and bisons just yet maybe bisons but not the jags but 200 f16s i like that i was trying to play it safe but lets see what happens

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## dadeechi

Avyator said:


> One thing I'm not understanding, that nobody seems to answer so far, is why are we going for a second MII LWF line? Why can't we just focus on mass producing Tejas?



Because Tejas is not matured yet for mass production and India is seeking help to make it a success. This is where SAAB and Dassault come in.


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## Avyator

dadeechi said:


> Because Tejas is not matured yet for mass production and India is seeking help to make it a success. This is where SAAB and Dassault come in.



That's interesting, I thought when they settled on the MK1A and nixed the whole MK2 idea, we were gonna start churning out MK1A's to phase out all the old MiG 21s & 27s.

So I assume the 2nd LWF is to plug the gaps until LCA is ready for mass production?

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## dadeechi

Avyator said:


> That's interesting, I thought when they settled on the MK1A and nixed the whole MK2 idea, we were gonna start churning out MK1A's to phase out all the old MiG 21s & 27s.
> 
> So I assume the 2nd LWF is to plug the gaps until LCA is ready for mass production?



Yes. the Specs for MK1A were agreed upon but need help from SAAB / Dassault to make it happen.

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## jha

GURU DUTT said:


> pretty much close but dont forget to include or write off jags and bisons just yet maybe bisons but not the jags but 200 f16s i like that i was trying to play it safe but lets see what happens



Where is FGFA in your calculations? Should start coming by 2023-2024.


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## #hydra#

BON PLAN said:


> Once you have paid for quite all fixed prices for Rafale (2 bases accomodations, new weapons + new pod + new helmet + .... adaptation), the price of a Rafale is "only" 95 euros millions.
> And india has already purchased these fixed costs.
> 
> A new plane? => nearly 2 billions new fixed costs more.
> 
> 
> You're right !
> 
> I think it's a politic and diplomatic gesticulation.
> 
> Politic : to put pressure on HAL (and on Dassault !)
> 
> Diplomatic : we never know, if SAAB or LM make a wonderfull and very cheap deal ....


Just to please uncle Sam,I m not seeing any other justification for it.


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## Taygibay

Dem!god said:


> There would have been no need for second MRCA.



Exactly, that's the whole point, congrats!
First, Rafale is MMRCA not MRCA. In essence, by hiking to the M2 definition,
GoI excluded smaller fighters which had less / little chance/s to overcome, the
idea being to protect LCA where L stands for Light.

In turn, the still unfounded rumour of an LWF MII acquisition does go head to
head with Tejas production : a communicating vessels kinda thing. ( L still standing for Light )

Thus, while the LFW option seems to be a cure for Rafale's costs being too high,
it actually threatens a product line that is already MII so that ...


Case 1 : you are right and India doesn't buy anymore of these luxury French items /
. . . . . in which case buying those 36/54 in the first place was borderline stupid;

Case 2 : you are still right and MII goes to F-16 or Gripen, effectively closing LCA /
. . . . . in which case the Tejas program must be termed a failure for Indian MIC;

Case 3 : someone else is right, the LWF MII is not for real, Rafale MII happens /
. . . . . in which case, GoI / IAF-IN balance Raffys vs Tejas according to need and
performances with both of these programs competing for orders.


Contrary to what many accused me of, I favour the last option as the only one under
which India does not invoke stupidity or failure in its decision process.

But that's blabber from an outsider and you can choose either case 1 or 2 for your land.
It's your prerogative as Bobby Brown would say. Bad choices are a very personal thing?

Good day to you, Tay.


P.S. At Dadeechi, that was a pure pun, mate ... using the photograph's stamp as an excuse
to show one more Tiger Meet Rafale as their namesake fits India. Here, have one more :

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## GURU DUTT

jha said:


> Where is FGFA in your calculations? Should start coming by 2023-2024.


no FGFA/PAKFA wont come before 2025 or even 2030 at least


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## Dem!god

dadeechi said:


> Well, the government is following the concept of "privatize profits socialize losses"
> 
> The deal for 36 is doing all the heavy lifting so that the private player part of the MII would only have the profits.
> 
> 
> 
> It would be like the below
> 
> View attachment 345982


Thats not the case bro, moreover government can't socialize losses to people and profit to any private company,. It's taxpayers money not DM money. Opposition and CAG will tear BJP down.
The only reason for abandoning the original MMRCA was the very steep rise in price of Rafael over what originally predicted by the ministry. Now we are looking for cheaper alternative like F16 grippen etc. Speaks volume of planning and execution by ministry of defence. Only real solution for these problems can be LCA and AMCA . But if F16 deal is done, I believe, AMCA will not see the light of the day and will die due to lack of funds.

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## Agent_47

dadeechi said:


> Well, the government is following the concept of "privatize profits socialize losses"
> 
> The deal for 36 is doing all the heavy lifting so that the private player part of the MII would only have the profits.
> 
> 
> 
> It would be like the below
> 
> View attachment 345982



There is no additional MKI orders, IAF chief said it multiple times.
LCA/Gripen ! really ?. Its LCA Mk1 40 + LCA MK1A 80 (Already ordered)
9 sqd of Upgraded Mig29/M2000/jaugars, It will be replaced by AMCA after 2030 (im quoting IAF chief again)
Get a grip dude, 200 F-16s! That too by 2024? 
Stop living in parallel universe and when making assumptions quote official sources.

Please check my earlier post -> https://defence.pk/threads/make-in-...-gripen-any-other.448850/page-11#post-8788834

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## BON PLAN

dadeechi said:


> Another 90 RAFALEs would be in the range of $10 billion and not $30 Billion.


YES !
90 x 95 euros millions x 1.1 = 9.4 $billions

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## 4GTejasBVR

dadeechi said:


> Well, the government is following the concept of "privatize profits socialize losses"
> 
> The deal for 36 is doing all the heavy lifting so that the private player part of the MII would only have the profits.
> 
> 
> 
> It would be like the below
> 
> View attachment 345982



Flaws with Ur calculation. Tejas MK1A 80 ordered first will be ready by 2021/22. So only 40 Tejas. 

Sukois yes 300 +

FGFA - Possibly with minute probability of 10-12 by 2021/22

Rafale will also be 36. If MII deal by 2018 12-18 more by 2021/22 

Our one and only hope will be Gripin or F16 . Of its F16 then sky is the limit production rolling out jet by 2019. So by 2021/22 could be like 60 F16. 

We are fcukin doomed with slow process for fight jets. Hope India would order 1 Squadron of PakFa from 2018-2022 while MII starts with 6-8 per year from 2020/21

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## Abingdonboy

Dem!god said:


> I do understand bro what you are saying, but we have limited defence budget. It is poor choice of IAF in the past that is making it suffer (and govt too.)


Straight from the Defence Minister's mouth; money is not an issue.

By 2026 (when the last payment for these 36 off the shelf Rafales will be made) India's defence budget will be >$120BN/year.

If you are so insistent on framing this purely through a financial prism please refer to the LCC of the Su-30MKI fleet and the Rafale's. If the IAF and MoD are happy to sanction a fleet of >300 MKIs then there is no issue with a similar (give or take) size force of Rafales that will offer greater availability, ease of maintainence and far fewer resources to keep flying.

+ Also please tell me why India is spending €1.8BN to make Indian specific upgrades for such a miniscule fleet? This is a point I have not seen ANYONE who would make the frankly absurd point only 36/54 are coming, address. Sure, call the Rafale "costly" (entirely ignoring the cost of comparable a/c and even the latest MKIs) but ignore what actually makes the deal for India costly. It is intellectually dishonest at the very least.



Avyator said:


> One thing I'm not understanding, that nobody seems to answer so far, is why are we going for a second MII LWF line? Why can't we just focus on mass producing Tejas?


And that is the RIGHT question, try asking the presstitutes who have no shame in openly highlighting their ties to SAAB or LM where this entire foreign LWF requirement has come from because neither the MoD or IAF has expressed any such need.



Taygibay said:


> Decide on MII quickly because China has its eyes on the Raffy too :
> 
> View attachment 345976
> ​ Tay -----» [ ]


If you want all of the tech that gives France a descernable edge in the fighter arena to be forfeit go ahead

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## Echo_419

Abingdonboy said:


> Straight from the Defence Minister's mouth; money is not an issue.
> 
> By 2026 (when the last payment for these 36 off the shelf Rafales will be made) India's defence budget will be >$120BN/year.
> 
> If you are so insistent on framing this purely through a financial prism please refer to the LCC of the Su-30MKI fleet and the Rafale's. If the IAF and MoD are happy to sanction a fleet of >300 MKIs then there is no issue with a similar (give or take) size force of Rafales that will offer greater availability, ease of maintainence and far fewer resources to keep flying.
> 
> + Also please tell me why India is spending €1.8BN to make Indian specific upgrades for such a miniscule fleet? This is a point I have not seen ANYONE who would make the frankly absurd point only 36/54 are coming, address. Sure, call the Rafale "costly" (entirely ignoring the cost of comparable a/c and even the latest MKIs) but ignore what actually makes the deal for India costly. It is intellectually dishonest at the very least.
> 
> 
> And that is the RIGHT question, try asking the presstitutes who have no shame in openly highlighting their ties to SAAB or LM where this entire foreign LWF requirement has come from because neither the MoD or GoI has expressed any such need.
> 
> 
> If you want all of the tech that gives France a descernable edge in the fighter arena to be forfeit go ahead



I agree, I am waiting for Parkkiar to deny these reports

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## Abingdonboy

GURU DUTT said:


> 270+42 MKI(super sukhoi) = 312 (17.3 squads) (18 jets per squad )
> 36+126 rafale =162 =9 squads (18 jets per squad )
> 126 F16 = 7 squads (18 jets per squad )
> 63 Fulkrums =3.5 squads (18 jets per squad )
> 52M2k=2.8 squads (18 jets per squad )
> 126=jags= 7 squads (18 jets per squad )
> 126=Bisons=7squads (18 jets per squad )
> 40+80 Tejas=6 (20 jets)
> 
> thats approx 59.6 squads most of them accept bisons with AESA Radar and long range BVR and latest HMDS and HOBS combo with all the bells and whistels associated with 4.5 gen fighter jet so i guess we are pretty solid placed till AMCA & PAKFA-FGFA come from 2025 to 2030


Bisons will start to be phased out from 2021, the Jag fleet will go foreward as DARIN III but only part of the fleet will be upgraded (the rest phased out) and no F-16s will come.



Echo_419 said:


> I agree, I am waiting for Parkkiar to deny these reports


I doubt it, that man only knows how to speak in riddles and contradictions 

(maybe that is by design on instruction from the PM)



dadeechi said:


> Well, the government is following the concept of "privatize profits socialize losses"
> 
> The deal for 36 is doing all the heavy lifting so that the private player part of the MII would only have the profits.
> 
> 
> 
> It would be like the below
> 
> View attachment 345982


3 different MMRCA contenders in service with the IAF? 

Come on bro, let's be serious money may not be a huge restraint for India BUT that doesn't mean the MoD/GoI has the right no needlessly squander their funds on such follies, the force structure you have outlined would result in BILLIONS of USD in needless duplication of services and would be a total waste. 10s of millions of Indians are still malnurished, every rupee needs to be justified, there is no way 3 MMRCA types meet this criteria.

Replace the F-16 with more Rafale (combination of MII and off the shelf from France) and the Gripen with Mk.1A (with a 3rd production line going to L&T) so 24 LCA are being churned out a year and you will have an almost Oracle like prediction of what will come to be.



dadeechi said:


> Because Tejas is not matured yet for mass production and India is seeking help to make it a success. This is where SAAB and Dassault come in.


SAAB is a lead intergrator with limited production capacity of its own that also happens to be busy setting up Brazil's Gripen production capability. Dassualt are ready to offer their expertise I'm sure but really all it needs is to give the 3rd production line to a pvt entity and HAL's fixed wing arm will quickly get the kick in the rear they have been asking for for a while.



jha said:


> Where is FGFA in your calculations? Should start coming by 2023-2024.


*2026

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## Echo_419

Abingdonboy said:


> Bisons will start to be phased out from 2021, the Jag fleet will go foreward as DARIN III but only part of the fleet will be upgraded (the rest phased out) and no F-16s will come.
> 
> 
> I doubt it, that man only knows how to speak in riddles and contradictions
> 
> (maybe that is by design on instruction from the PM)
> 
> 
> 3 different MMRCA contenders in service with the IAF?
> 
> Come on bro, let's be serious money may not be a huge restraint for India BUT that doesn't mean the MoD/GoI has the right no needlessly squander their funds on such follies, the force structure you have outlined would result in BILLIONS of USD in needless duplication of services and would be a total waste. 10s of millions of Indians are still malnurished, every rupee needs to be justified, there is no way 3 MMRCA types meet this criteria.
> 
> Replace the F-16 with more Rafale (combination of MII and off the shelf from France) and the Gripen with Mk.1A (with a 3rd production line going to L&T) so 24 LCA are being churned out a year and you will have an almost Oracle like prediction of what will come to be.
> 
> 
> SAAB is a lead intergrator with limited production capacity of its own that also happens to be busy setting up Brazil's Gripen production capability. Dassualt are ready to offer their expertise I'm sure but really all it needs is to give the 3rd production line to a pvt entity and HAL's fixed wing arm will quickly get the kick in the rear they have been asking for for a while.
> 
> 
> *2026



On a totally unrelated topic 
Any idea where I can find the complete list of equipment, from helmet to boots, used by the Army Infantry?


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## Abingdonboy

Agent_47 said:


> There is no additional MKI orders, IAF chief said it multiple times.


The current MKI production cycle will come to an end in 2019 (2020 at the latest), the FGFA will not be in production before 2026 (maybe, MAYBE 2025) so there is still a huge period of time where HAL's Naisik plant will be idle and this just isn't going to be allowed. More MKI orders will be made simply to keep the plant humming along until the FGFA is ready to enter production. At least another 30 MKIs will come post 2019 (with HAL turning down output to single digits per annum to stretch the delivery timeline.).



Agent_47 said:


> 9 sqd of Upgraded Mig29/M2000/jaugars, It will be replaced by AMCA after 2030 (im quoting IAF chief again)


Spot on.



Echo_419 said:


> On a totally unrelated topic
> Any idea where I can find the complete list of equipment, from helmet to boots, used by the Army Infantry?


Maybe try Googling "WW1-era infantry equipment?" 


Seriosuly though I'm not sure bro.

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## #hydra#

Abingdonboy said:


> Straight from the Defence Minister's mouth; money is not an issue.
> 
> By 2026 (when the last payment for these 36 off the shelf Rafales will be made) India's defence budget will be >$120BN/year.
> 
> If you are so insistent on framing this purely through a financial prism please refer to the LCC of the Su-30MKI fleet and the Rafale's. If the IAF and MoD are happy to sanction a fleet of >300 MKIs then there is no issue with a similar (give or take) size force of Rafales that will offer greater availability, ease of maintainence and far fewer resources to keep flying.
> 
> + Also please tell me why India is spending €1.8BN to make Indian specific upgrades for such a miniscule fleet? This is a point I have not seen ANYONE who would make the frankly absurd point only 36/54 are coming, address. Sure, call the Rafale "costly" (entirely ignoring the cost of comparable a/c and even the latest MKIs) but ignore what actually makes the deal for India costly. It is intellectually dishonest at the very least.
> 
> 
> And that is the RIGHT question, try asking the presstitutes who have no shame in openly highlighting their ties to SAAB or LM where this entire foreign LWF requirement has come from because neither the MoD or IAF has expressed any such need.
> 
> 
> If you want all of the tech that gives France a descernable edge in the fighter arena to be forfeit go ahead


Tell me weather 16 is coming or not?I don't want that to happen...


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## Abingdonboy

#hydra# said:


> Tell me weather 16 is coming or not?I don't want that to happen...


The F-16?


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## #hydra#

Abingdonboy said:


> The F-16?


Us,f16.... After @PARIKRAMA ,u are the only trusted source in PDF , Indian section is conceded.


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## randomradio

Rafale MII is happening, LWF MII is happening and LCA MII(duh) is happening.

Lot of people are still confused. IAF want 400 aircraft before 2027, pushed to before 2028. So all three lines are necessary.

IAF can't afford 40 Rafales a year, so they have settled for 20 Rafales and 20 LWF. Nothing complicated about that.

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## #hydra#

randomradio said:


> Rafale MII is happening, LWF MII is happening and LCA MII(duh) is happening.
> 
> Lot of people are still confused. IAF want 400 aircraft before 2027, pushed to before 2028. So all three lines are necessary.
> 
> IAF can't afford 40 Rafales a year, so they have settled for 20 Rafales and 20 LWF. Nothing complicated about that.


Then why not additional rafale?


----------



## randomradio

#hydra# said:


> Then why not additional rafale?



I've already mentioned that.
_IAF can't afford 40 Rafales a year, _

After MKI's full rate production started, IAF proceeded to purchase a large number of MKIs, 82, from Russian lines. So for a long time, IAF was inducting 2 squadrons a year, right up to 2015. 2015 was also the original year when MKI's production was supposed to end.

So IAF had planned to purchase 108 Rafales from the Indian line and 81 Rafales from the French line over a period of 10 years after contract signature. This was supposed to be from 2013 to 2023, revised to 2015 to 2025, now canceled. Especially after the poor growth under UPA-2, which Parrikar constantly keeps reminding us.

With the failure of LCA, now they've decided the MMRCA option is too expensive. So instead of buying 189 expensive jets in 10 years, they have decided to get 90 Rafales and 90 LWF in 10 years. Of course, production will continue beyond that, but you have to be sensitive about the time frame also. 2027, now 2028, is the cut off date.

So now we will buy more than 90 Rafales, and more than 90 LWF, but staggered over a much longer time frame, say up to 2032, just assuming. But this way, with 3 lines, IAF will be able to get up to strength at a faster rate, with lesser chances of delays.

Guy, don't forget that the LCA Mk2 was originally supposed to get IOC in 2018. So this requirement has been moved to LWF. There is literally nothing special going on. We simply can't afford Rafales as planned under MMRCA, so we have merely devised a new plan, basically a slightly slower Rafale induction at cheaper rates (kudos to Parrikar for getting such good terms) and replaced the Mk2 with the Mk1A and the new LWF.

The IAF's immediate and obvious objective is to have 300 new jets on contract and delivered by 2027.

Original 10-year plan
189 Rafale
120 LCA Mk1 and Mk2

New 10-year plan
90 Rafale
90 LWF
120 LCA Mk1 and Mk1A

Naturally, follow on options will come in at a later date in multiple tranches, depending on the progress of FGFA and AMCA, making the entire procurement plan for the IAF much more feasible than earlier.

This new LWF could be Gripen, F-16 or LSA.

I hope this makes it much easier to understand.

Naturally, in 2022, these numbers will come up for revision again, so depending on how well the country grows economically, IAF may even purchase 2 Rafale and 2 LWF squadrons from both the Indian and foreign line, as it was for MKI, or even double both the MII lines. But the current plan is based on current economic realities.

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## Nilgiri

Taygibay said:


> Decide on MII quickly because China has its eyes on the Raffy too :
> 
> View attachment 345976
> ​ Tay -----» [ ]

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## Taygibay

Well, if by 2030, the IAF has 300 MKIs ( incl. Supers )
150 Rafales and 200 various LCAs and retiring frames
with a sprinkle of FGFAs and the AMCA well on its way,
I'll consider it both lucky and a considerable force despite
that count failing the total squadron mantra! We'll see ...

@Nilgiri keep your cheap music and have yourself another
heap of REAL tiger :




​Good day all, Tay.​

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## Abingdonboy

#hydra# said:


> Us,f16.... After @PARIKRAMA ,u are the only trusted source in PDF , Indian section is conceded.


F-16 has zero chance in India.



Taygibay said:


> Well, if by 2030, the IAF has 300 MKIs ( incl. Supers )


Assured, 340 is likely to be the total number but as I have said above, this may be revised upwards or downwards by a margin of 20 a/c depending on how FGFA production comes along.



Taygibay said:


> 150 Rafales


Again, assured at this point the only issue with Rafale MII is creating the requisite infrastructure in India to churn them out. Others seem to be very optimistic about how quickly an Indian line can come up but I remain rather skeptical.



Taygibay said:


> 200 various LCAs


120 are guarenteed, going by how Indian defence procurements work (batch orders) another 80 or so is easily doable. The issue with the LCA will be on the production side, by 2020 HAL plans to have an installed capacity to churn out 16/year with 2 lines of its own and are attempting to rope in a private player to create a third line of their own so theoretically within a few years 24 LCA/year could be rolling out (if everything goes right, which rarely happens).

No need to mention the foreign single engine LWF hoax.



randomradio said:


> I've already mentioned that.
> _IAF can't afford 40 Rafales a year, _
> 
> After MKI's full rate production started, IAF proceeded to purchase a large number of MKIs, 82, from Russian lines. So for a long time, IAF was inducting 2 squadrons a year, right up to 2015. 2015 was also the original year when MKI's production was supposed to end.
> 
> So IAF had planned to purchase 108 Rafales from the Indian line and 81 Rafales from the French line over a period of 10 years after contract signature. This was supposed to be from 2013 to 2023, revised to 2015 to 2025, now canceled. Especially after the poor growth under UPA-2, which Parrikar constantly keeps reminding us.
> 
> With the failure of LCA, now they've decided the MMRCA option is too expensive. So instead of buying 189 expensive jets in 10 years, they have decided to get 90 Rafales and 90 LWF in 10 years. Of course, production will continue beyond that, but you have to be sensitive about the time frame also. 2027, now 2028, is the cut off date.
> 
> So now we will buy more than 90 Rafales, and more than 90 LWF, but staggered over a much longer time frame, say up to 2032, just assuming. But this way, with 3 lines, IAF will be able to get up to strength at a faster rate, with lesser chances of delays.
> 
> Guy, don't forget that the LCA Mk2 was originally supposed to get IOC in 2018. So this requirement has been moved to LWF. There is literally nothing special going on. We simply can't afford Rafales as planned under MMRCA, so we have merely devised a new plan, basically a slightly slower Rafale induction at cheaper rates (kudos to Parrikar for getting such good terms) and replaced the Mk2 with the Mk1A and the new LWF.
> 
> The IAF's immediate and obvious objective is to have 300 new jets on contract and delivered by 2027.
> 
> Original 10-year plan
> 189 Rafale
> 120 LCA Mk1 and Mk2
> 
> New 10-year plan
> 90 Rafale
> 90 LWF
> 120 LCA Mk1 and Mk1A
> 
> Naturally, follow on options will come in at a later date in multiple tranches, depending on the progress of FGFA and AMCA, making the entire procurement plan for the IAF much more feasible than earlier.
> 
> This new LWF could be Gripen, F-16 or LSA.
> 
> I hope this makes it much easier to understand.
> 
> Naturally, in 2022, these numbers will come up for revision again, so depending on how well the country grows economically, IAF may even purchase 2 Rafale and 2 LWF squadrons from both the Indian and foreign line, as it was for MKI, or even double both the MII lines. But the current plan is based on current economic realities.


When talking about Rafale numbers for India let us not forget the IN's own demand for the type.

Again, I will forever refrain from taking the LWF seriously.

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## Nilgiri

Taygibay said:


> Well, if by 2030, the IAF has 300 MKIs ( incl. Supers )
> 150 Rafales and 200 various LCAs and retiring frames
> with a sprinkle of FGFAs and the AMCA well on its way,
> I'll consider it both lucky and a considerable force despite
> that count failing the total squadron mantra! We'll see ...
> 
> @Nilgiri keep your cheap music and have yourself another
> heap of REAL tiger :
> 
> View attachment 346081​​Good day all, Tay.​



Lol at that tail art.

Growwwl

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> When talking about Rafale numbers for India let us not forget the IN's own demand for the type.



Those are not relevant to the IAF's requirement or budget.

The Americans are pushing for the F-35, way too much. To the point that they are willing to cancel the carrier arrangement. I just hope whatever decision the IN takes is a sensible decision.

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## dadeechi

Dem!god said:


> Thats not the case bro, moreover government can't socialize losses to people and profit to any private company,. It's taxpayers money not DM money. Opposition and CAG will tear BJP down.
> The only reason for abandoning the original MMRCA was the very steep rise in price of Rafael over what originally predicted by the ministry. Now we are looking for cheaper alternative like F16 grippen etc. Speaks volume of planning and execution by ministry of defence. Only real solution for these problems can be LCA and AMCA . But if F16 deal is done, I believe, AMCA will not see the light of the day and will die due to lack of funds.



AMCA would not die but it would have a late start between 2030-2035.


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## wiseone2

randomradio said:


> Those are not relevant to the IAF's requirement or budget.
> 
> The Americans are pushing for the F-35, way too much. To the point that they are willing to cancel the carrier arrangement. I just hope whatever decision the IN takes is a sensible decision.


i did not realize the f-35 is available
would a puchase of 40-60 aircraft keep the americans away ?


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## dadeechi

Agent_47 said:


> There is no additional MKI orders, IAF chief said it multiple times.
> LCA/Gripen ! really ?. Its LCA Mk1 40 + LCA MK1A 80 (Already ordered)
> 9 sqd of Upgraded Mig29/M2000/jaugars, It will be replaced by AMCA after 2030 (im quoting IAF chief again)
> Get a grip dude, 200 F-16s! That too by 2024?
> Stop living in parallel universe and when making assumptions quote official sources.
> 
> Please check my earlier post -> https://defence.pk/threads/make-in-...-gripen-any-other.448850/page-11#post-8788834



My response is here

https://defence.pk/threads/make-in-...-gripen-any-other.448850/page-21#post-8846482



wiseone2 said:


> i did not realize the f-35 is available
> would a puchase of 40-60 aircraft keep the americans away ?



F-35s would be available to India post 2030.


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## Agent_47

Abingdonboy said:


> The current MKI production cycle will come to an end in 2019 (2020 at the latest), the FGFA will not be in production before 2026 (maybe, MAYBE 2025) so there is still a huge period of time where HAL's Naisik plant will be idle and this just isn't going to be allowed. More MKI orders will be made simply to keep the plant humming along until the FGFA is ready to enter production. At least another 30 MKIs will come post 2019 (with HAL turning down output to single digits per annum to stretch the delivery timeline.).


Look at the future force structure, IAF don't want to induct more heavy fighters.Chief said it multiple times. The last order of 40 was to extend production line. Naisik plant will be focusing on overhauls.

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## dadeechi

Agent_47 said:


> Look at the future force structure, IAF don't want to induct more heavy fighters.Chief said it multiple times. The last order of 40 was to extend production line. Naisik plant will be focusing on overhauls.



What about the 40 that would carry Brahmos?

@Abingdonboy


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## Agent_47

dadeechi said:


> What about the 40 that would carry Brahmos?
> 
> @Abingdonboy


Read the HAL chief statement, It is from current operational MKI. Nasik are currently overhauling 10-15 MKI per year. They are thinking of doubling it (when the stops)

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## randomradio

wiseone2 said:


> i did not realize the f-35 is available
> would a puchase of 40-60 aircraft keep the americans away ?



How will buying the F-35 keep the Americans away?

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## Abingdonboy

Agent_47 said:


> Look at the future force structure, IAF don't want to induct more heavy fighters.Chief said it multiple times. The last order of 40 was to extend production line. Naisik plant will be focusing on overhauls.


I'm aware of that and I am not saying the IAF wants more heavies but it will be a strategic decsion (to keep Naisik ticking over), the IAF chief's comments were made in the past but since then the FGFA's production schedule has continued to slip which will force the IAF's/MoD's hand. I had heard the 330-340 unit projection a few years ago anyway and it seems to be going this way.



dadeechi said:


> What about the 40 that would carry Brahmos?
> 
> @Abingdonboy


As mentioned above, exsisting MKIs will be modified for this role.

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## randomradio

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm aware of that and I am not saying the IAF wants more heavies but it will be a strategic decsion (to keep Naisik ticking over), the IAF chief's comments were made in the past but since then the FGFA's production schedule has continued to slip which will force the IAF's/MoD's hand. I had heard the 330-340 unit projection a few years ago anyway and it seems to be going this way.



If we order 40 more MKIs, HAL won't produce them, we will get them as kits which HAL will assemble in 2 months and deliver to the IAF without it ever having touched the Nasik assembly line.

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## Gessler

Dem!god said:


> I do understand bro what you are saying, but we have limited defence budget. It is poor choice of IAF in the past that is making it suffer (and govt too.) .



First of all, has any MoD or Finance Ministry official ever even said that we cannot afford any of the ongoing procurements? AFAIK, no. The "budget problems" that a lot of people are harping about are either imagined or wrongly calculated.



> How could we have afforded 126 Rafael with 30 billion $ + bill. We have other project like FGFA ,updating sukhoi to super sukhoi, helicopters, plane mounted radars etc.



IAF has operated a larger variety of aircraft in the past (during '65, '71 wars) from a multitude of sources (Western like Ouragans, Mysteres etc., Russian like Su-7s and MiGs and Indian like HF-24 Marut) than it does now or plans to do in the future. And that was when our economy was in the drain and we were walking the line on international sanctions & isolation.

Operating FGFA, Rafale, MKI + Tejas in the 2020s is a cakewalk in comparison. Each type is being procured in sufficient numbers to enjoy the economies of scale, while having all the desired capabilities.

Our economy is rising, fast. We have the capability to procure & maintain the kind of fleet IAF wants - and that capability will only increase in the future.



> We need to be realistic when looking into our options.



True. But remember that line.



> For MRCA deal india should have gone with only one type of aircraft. If Rafael were too costly india should have dropped it and choose the next best one that fit in out budget.



Again, who said Rafale is too costly? Haggling with the other party to reduce the price & discussing the other benefits is fine, but who said anything about Rafale being out of the price league?

The only planes that actually met IAF's technical requirements were the Rafale & Typhoon. And among these two, Rafale was the cheapest.



> Only logical choice for IAF is to rely on home grown fighter and invest in LCA and AMCA



You said yourself that we must be realistic when looking into our options. And here you're suggesting that we forego available options for the sake of a plane that doesn't exist and won't for a long time.

Our requirement is now.



> If IAF want to have the sanctioned strength of 42 + squadrons then it must be fulfilled by our own platforms. It must invest in home grown jets and accept it's responsibility too. Defence is important but there are many other areas which need investment and care from government on priority basis.



We don't just need X number of planes. We need those numbers is certain categories which will together provide the IAF the tactical combat capability it desires. Building your whole fleet around 1,000 LCAs won't win you a war

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## migflug

*Rafale numbers don’t add up*
Clarity is required on the deal’s India-specific technologies and their industrial viability plan

Abhijit Iyer-Mitra






Photo: Reuters

The Rafale deal is back in the news. This past Thursday, Swaraj Abhiyan founder Prashant Bhushan alleged that the Union government had paid double the price for individual aircraft units. Defence minister Manohar Parrikar responded that this was the “best deal” and one that had not been offered to any other country. On Sunday, Bhushan shot back. He said that the Rafale deal will prove to be another “Bofors” for the Narendra Modi government. The truth, as is usually the case, lies somewhere in the middle.

The Rafale is a great plane and its induction will do a lot for the air force. However, as the dust settles on the excitement over the Indian Air Force’s purchase of the plane, it is becoming increasingly evident that the numbers are very complex and throw up more questions than answers.

As of now the deal for 36 aircraft is valued at a total of $8.9 billion*. This translates into a per-unit price of $247 million. The actual planes are valued at $3.78 billion or $105 million per plane.* By itself this does not seem like a particularly large blowout of the initial Rafale offer in the 2007 MMRCA tender, where the cost hovered around the $90 million mark.

What’s interesting, however, is how the rest of the money is allocated. A full $1.9 billion will be spent on customizing the aircraft to Indian specifications*. Publicly this has included speculation about an Israeli-manufactured helmet-mounted display (HMD).* An HMD shows flight and combat-critical information that is displayed on the pilot’s helmet visor. This allows the pilot to cue a missile on to an enemy fighter by simply looking at it.

The Rafale has had a troubled history with this technology. As far back as 2011 some Rafale models were tested with unidentified versions of the HMD. However, till date no HMD has been integrated with the Rafale in French service. This is a particularly glaring omission given that HMDs are considered the sine qua non of modern fighters. Also, $1.9 billion seems far too much money for the purchase and integration of a mere helmet which by no stretch of the imagination can cost almost 50% of the plane itself. This leads one to conclude that there may be several technologies being developed for the Rafale.

The most logical options for this include other major sub-systems that the Rafale currently lacks.* The obvious technology choice will be an infrared search and track (IRST) system that allows the plane to carry out a completely passive search of the airspace, checking for the heat exhaust of opposing fighters or missiles. In the modern battlefield, thick with jamming across the electromagnetic spectrum, something as simple as an infrared tracker makes all the difference between life and death.*

The other obvious target for improvement in the Rafale is the radar.* The current radar of the Rafale—the RBE2—only has a one-way data link to its long-range air-to-air missile, the Meteor. This is a huge disadvantage that effectively squanders the range advantage of the Meteor. What would happen in combat is that the Rafale will fire a Meteor from a great distance at a target;* in the case of fighters like the Eurofighter Typhoon and Gripen, which have a two-way data link to the Meteor, they can immediately break off the attack and retreat to a safe place. The missile then acts as eyes at the back of the proverbial head-allowing the pilot to see his target through the missile’s own radar. This is not the case with the Rafale as it will have to continue trailing the Meteors it fires right up to the point of impact to ensure the target is actually destroyed.

If it is in fact these three critical technologies that are being modified to make the Rafale India-specific, then it will be money well spent depending, of course, on who owns the intellectual property rights to these improvements. If this ends up being another case of subsidizing the improvement of other people’s technology at the expense of the Indian taxpayer, then it is safe to conclude that the deal was badly negotiated.

Adding to the apprehension is the defence ministry’s curious usage of the term “offset” as opposed to “industrial participation”. “Offset” implies India may not own the technologies it pays to develop and will receive unrelated contracts. On the other hand, “industrial participation” would have implied that the commercial benefits of the technologies could have been exploited in the short to medium term. Realistically speaking, all three technologies are extremely complex, rendering indigenization impossible in the short to medium term. By the time such technologies are transferred, their market viability would be at an end.

It must, however, be noted that the total offset stipulated by the defence ministry stands at 50% or around $4.5 billion, leaving another $2.7 billion unaccounted for. Sadly, Dassault’s choice of local industrial partners does not inspire confidence. In the past, the normal practice has been for companies to pay their “local partner” a fraction of the cost of the offset to simply claim that they had received orders, inflating bills, or double and triple invoicing.

Clearly, greater transparency is required since much of the deal does not add up. The most basic steps must include clarity on the India-specific technologies, their ownership and their industrial viability plan, and the institution of annual third-party audits to ensure that Dassault’s local partners are in fact receiving and executing orders for the full value of the $4.5 billion offset. Till then we can only cross our fingers and hope that this is not a case of history repeating itself.




some more clarity on new technologies developed for india specific rafale. What about engine/uprated engine?


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## Picdelamirand-oil

A lot of misinformations in this article.
First it asks for clarity as if it was not the case but there is thousand of pages in the contract giving all the details,and the question is does this has to be share with the media? The Dassault policy is that it is the costomer which can communicate about a contract.

Second the article claim That the Rafale has had a troubled history with HMD. Several HMD have been already integrated with Rafale, but the French air force does not want it until the mass is below 1.3 kg with all equipments including night vision. For the moment nobody is able to deliver that, and even if India choose an HMD France will not buy one.

Third the description of the use of the two way datalink for meteor is completly false. Nobody will watch at his target through the seeker of a missile! the range of the seeker is far below the range of the plane radar. The two way datalink is used to communicate to the plane when the target is locked, and at this moment the plane can break off the attack. But Rafale can break off the attack as soon as the meteor is fire, because SPECTRA is able to track a target which has been initialised by a radar during the time of the attack.

And for IRST there is one available: the OSF is a plug an play equipment, France have two kinds of OSF : OSF-IT which is the new one without IRST but with a TV sensor allowing identification at long Range, and OSF with an IRST and aTV sensor with a lower range. Inda can choose a mixt of the two or only one of the two. But it can be developed also an IR sensor to add to OSF-IT as part of Make in India.

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## BON PLAN

migflug said:


> *Rafale numbers don’t add up*
> Clarity is required on the deal’s India-specific technologies and their industrial viability plan
> 
> Abhijit Iyer-Mitra
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photo: Reuters
> 
> The Rafale deal is back in the news. This past Thursday, Swaraj Abhiyan founder Prashant Bhushan alleged that the Union government had paid double the price for individual aircraft units. Defence minister Manohar Parrikar responded that this was the “best deal” and one that had not been offered to any other country. On Sunday, Bhushan shot back. He said that the Rafale deal will prove to be another “Bofors” for the Narendra Modi government. The truth, as is usually the case, lies somewhere in the middle.
> 
> The Rafale is a great plane and its induction will do a lot for the air force. However, as the dust settles on the excitement over the Indian Air Force’s purchase of the plane, it is becoming increasingly evident that the numbers are very complex and throw up more questions than answers.
> 
> As of now the deal for 36 aircraft is valued at a total of $8.9 billion*. This translates into a per-unit price of $247 million. The actual planes are valued at $3.78 billion or $105 million per plane.* By itself this does not seem like a particularly large blowout of the initial Rafale offer in the 2007 MMRCA tender, where the cost hovered around the $90 million mark.
> 
> What’s interesting, however, is how the rest of the money is allocated. A full $1.9 billion will be spent on customizing the aircraft to Indian specifications*. Publicly this has included speculation about an Israeli-manufactured helmet-mounted display (HMD).* An HMD shows flight and combat-critical information that is displayed on the pilot’s helmet visor. This allows the pilot to cue a missile on to an enemy fighter by simply looking at it.
> 
> The Rafale has had a troubled history with this technology. As far back as 2011 some Rafale models were tested with unidentified versions of the HMD. However, till date no HMD has been integrated with the Rafale in French service. This is a particularly glaring omission given that HMDs are considered the sine qua non of modern fighters. Also, $1.9 billion seems far too much money for the purchase and integration of a mere helmet which by no stretch of the imagination can cost almost 50% of the plane itself. This leads one to conclude that there may be several technologies being developed for the Rafale.
> 
> The most logical options for this include other major sub-systems that the Rafale currently lacks.* The obvious technology choice will be an infrared search and track (IRST) system that allows the plane to carry out a completely passive search of the airspace, checking for the heat exhaust of opposing fighters or missiles. In the modern battlefield, thick with jamming across the electromagnetic spectrum, something as simple as an infrared tracker makes all the difference between life and death.*
> 
> The other obvious target for improvement in the Rafale is the radar.* The current radar of the Rafale—the RBE2—only has a one-way data link to its long-range air-to-air missile, the Meteor. This is a huge disadvantage that effectively squanders the range advantage of the Meteor. What would happen in combat is that the Rafale will fire a Meteor from a great distance at a target;* in the case of fighters like the Eurofighter Typhoon and Gripen, which have a two-way data link to the Meteor, they can immediately break off the attack and retreat to a safe place. The missile then acts as eyes at the back of the proverbial head-allowing the pilot to see his target through the missile’s own radar. This is not the case with the Rafale as it will have to continue trailing the Meteors it fires right up to the point of impact to ensure the target is actually destroyed.
> 
> If it is in fact these three critical technologies that are being modified to make the Rafale India-specific, then it will be money well spent depending, of course, on who owns the intellectual property rights to these improvements. If this ends up being another case of subsidizing the improvement of other people’s technology at the expense of the Indian taxpayer, then it is safe to conclude that the deal was badly negotiated.
> 
> Adding to the apprehension is the defence ministry’s curious usage of the term “offset” as opposed to “industrial participation”. “Offset” implies India may not own the technologies it pays to develop and will receive unrelated contracts. On the other hand, “industrial participation” would have implied that the commercial benefits of the technologies could have been exploited in the short to medium term. Realistically speaking, all three technologies are extremely complex, rendering indigenization impossible in the short to medium term. By the time such technologies are transferred, their market viability would be at an end.
> 
> It must, however, be noted that the total offset stipulated by the defence ministry stands at 50% or around $4.5 billion, leaving another $2.7 billion unaccounted for. Sadly, Dassault’s choice of local industrial partners does not inspire confidence. In the past, the normal practice has been for companies to pay their “local partner” a fraction of the cost of the offset to simply claim that they had received orders, inflating bills, or double and triple invoicing.
> 
> Clearly, greater transparency is required since much of the deal does not add up. The most basic steps must include clarity on the India-specific technologies, their ownership and their industrial viability plan, and the institution of annual third-party audits to ensure that Dassault’s local partners are in fact receiving and executing orders for the full value of the $4.5 billion offset. Till then we can only cross our fingers and hope that this is not a case of history repeating itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> some more clarity on new technologies developed for india specific rafale. What about engine/uprated engine?


Except the two way datalink (and maybe not...) it's BS as usual from guys speaking about things they don't understand.

The 90 or 95 millions price per plane is the price India will paid for next batch. Because all the fixed costs are already paid.
Rafale has the OSF which acts as an IRST.


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## gowthamraj

http://m.economictimes.com/news/def...acturing-unit-in-goa/articleshow/55016003.cms


PANAJI: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today "advised" French firm SAFRAN to set up a facility in his home state of Goa to manufacture small parts for the fighter aircraft Rafale, for which India recently signed a deal with France. 

"I would also advice you to take advantage of the off-set in Rafale deal. From my side I will put a word. You (SAFRAN) are supplying engines for Rafale. The off-set of Rafale deal is around Rs 30,000 crore. If you are interested in setting up a manufacturing facility of some small parts then you can do it in Goa," Parrikar said during the inauguration of a joint venture between HAL and French firm SAFRAN in North Goa. 

He said Rs 1,000-1,500 crore of the total offset deal can be invested in Goa. 

"If that happens, Goa will provide technical support which is required for such activity," he said. 

The Defence Minister also appealed state Chief Minister Laxmikant Parsekar for setting up courses for skill development in aeronautical engineering. 


Parrikar said Goa requires engineering industry. 

"Goans are in high tech jobs across India. Also a lot of talent is available locally," he added. 

The Defence Minister also suggested that HAL should tie up with SAFRAN and get into manufacturing of engines. 

"We are going to require 6,000-10,000 engines in next ten years and most of them are SAFRAN engines," he said. 

Parrikar said the Goa government is ready to provide land and other facilities required to set up an engine manufacturing plant.

PS: It's a good thing that ofset cause itself make future MII less complicated and quick progression


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## Taygibay

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Second the article claim That the Rafale has had a troubled history with HMD. Several HMD have been already integrated with Rafale, but the French air force does not want it until the mass is below 1.3 kg with all equipments including night vision. For the moment nobody is able to deliver that, and even if India choose an HMD France will not buy one.



YUP! First thought was : _ Sextant Avionics _ Thales ( Topsight ) _ Gerfault by Sagem
Second one went : _ Where do these people get their infos from?

Then 2 paragraphs later I stopped reading after this gem :


migflug said:


> The other obvious target for improvement in the Rafale is the radar.



 Tu me comprends, j'espère? [ / I trust you'll understand!  ]

Good day all, Tay.


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## BON PLAN

Taygibay said:


> YUP! First thought was : _ Sextant Avionics _ Thales ( Topsight ) _ Gerfault by Sagem
> Second one went : _ Where do these people get their infos from?
> 
> Then 2 paragraphs later I stopped reading after this gem :
> 
> 
> Tu me comprends, j'espère? [ / I trust you'll understand!  ]
> 
> Good day all, Tay.


about the radar, it was true with the PESA antenae (a little bit short in range).
Rafale is delivered with AESA until 2013....


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## Picdelamirand-oil

BON PLAN said:


> about the radar, it was true with the PESA antenae (a little bit short in range).
> Rafale is delivered with AESA until 2013....


PESA RBE2 is an excellent Radar:

Dutch pilots, following the evaluation of the Rafale, had expressed admiration speaking of "solid tracks" produced by RBE2. It seems they were oscillations of velocity vectors of radar tracks from their F16.

Within Thales, that remains the favorite anecdote to explain to trainees radar operators* that the antenna size and transmitter power are not enough to make a good radar*.

As was shown recently by Thales at a conference on the Rafale in Bordeaux, it is imperative to look at the number of antenna paths and the number of receiving channels and their quality.

In this case, the Netherlands F16 radar did lack of track deviation measurement to make monopulse processing. The radar was cheaper at the expense of performance.

In the same conference, he was presented the hypothesis of a lower quality of pathways of the Eurofighter radar to explain notably the lower assessment made by the Swiss.

This radar has good number of pathways to make single-pulse (angular deviation) but their quality is not sufficient in "look down" to separate soil echoes of echoes aircraft.

Fewer the noise in these pathways more Doppler separation is effective (it is true that the soil returns of the Alps should have shake a little the radar).

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## BON PLAN

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> PESA RBE2 is an excellent Radar:
> 
> Dutch pilots, following the evaluation of the Rafale, had expressed admiration speaking of "solid tracks" produced by RBE2. It seems they were oscillations of velocity vectors of radar tracks from their F16.
> 
> Within Thales, that remains the favorite anecdote to explain to trainees radar operators* that the antenna size and transmitter power are not enough to make a good radar*.
> 
> As was shown recently by Thales at a conference on the Rafale in Bordeaux, it is imperative to look at the number of antenna paths and the number of receiving channels and their quality.
> 
> In this case, the Netherlands F16 radar did lack of track deviation measurement to make monopulse processing. The radar was cheaper at the expense of performance.
> 
> In the same conference, he was presented the hypothesis of a lower quality of pathways of the Eurofighter radar to explain notably the lower assessment made by the Swiss.
> 
> This radar has good number of pathways to make single-pulse (angular deviation) but their quality is not sufficient in "look down" to separate soil echoes of echoes aircraft.
> 
> Fewer the noise in these pathways more Doppler separation is effective (it is true that the soil returns of the Alps should have shake a little the radar).


OK, but the PESA radar was a little bit disapointing for french pilots at the beginnings, in term of range. 

I say nothing more.


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## Eminent Mainstream Media

gowthamraj said:


> "We are going to require* 6,000-10,000 engines* in next ten years and most of them are SAFRAN engines," he said.



Planning to Invade China

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## TimePass

Eminent Mainstream Media said:


> Planning to Invade China



Helicopter engines, mid term replacement engines, jet engines, engines for falcon, ....


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## Eminent Mainstream Media

TimePass said:


> Helicopter engines, mid term replacement engines, jet engines, engines for falcon, ....



Still those are Huge numbers-


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## Hindustani78

http://www.thehindu.com/business/In...eration-christophe-sirugue/article9271311.ece

As part of efforts to boost India-France trade & investment ties, French Minister of State for Industry Christophe Sirugue is on a three day tour to India beginning October 25. The focus of his trip is on developing bilateral industrial partnership under the “Make in India” initiative as well as on innovation & new technology.

In an interview to _The Hindu_, Sirugue termed the €7.87 billion deal for purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft by India as a major strategic success, and said it will pave the way for an unprecedented strengthening of France-India technological & industrial cooperation.* Besides, he said Alstom’s troubles in France owing to poor demand will not impact its India operations -- including implementation of the over €3 billion contract it bagged in November 2015 to supply Indian Railways 800 freight electric locomotives and carry out the related long-term maintenance.* The minister also said* in addition to defence, aerospace and nuclear energy, he sees strong potential in three rapidly growing sectors in India: urban development (including urban transport, renewable energy, water & waste treatment), food processing and healthcare. (Edited excerpts)*

*Q: An India-France joint statement in January had referred to the attractiveness of France for Indian investors, especially for leveraging French technological expertise & competencies. Which are the sectors in India where there is a demand for French technologies; and what are the problems being faced by French firms regarding transferring technology to Indian firms?*

A: There are many solid reasons behind France’s attractiveness for Indian investors. France is the fifth largest economy in the world, and the second largest market in Europe. Around 25,000 foreign companies present in France employ more than 1.7 million people, and, every week, 19 foreign firms choose France for new investments, considering its skilled workforce, its excellent infrastructure and its central location in Europe.

French technology and know-how are renowned worldwide in numerous sectors. There is longstanding cooperation between our countries and our companies in sectors such as defence, aerospace and nuclear energy. Both sides have developed long-term partnerships. I also see strong potential in three rapidly growing sectors in India: (i) urban development – an area in which many French companies are already present and can offer innovative technologies in urban transport, renewable energy, water and waste treatment; (ii) the food processing sector, in which many of our specialized SMEs wish to establish themselves; and, (iii) healthcare, a competitive and technologically advanced sector in which France has much to offer.

*Q: Can you share some details on cooperation between states / provinces of India and France?*

A: Indo-French economic relations are ever-intensifying, at all levels, be they at the central, state or local ones. The union territories, states and local bodies are obviously key players with whom French companies are increasingly working. French companies are spreading their presence throughout India, especially in large metropolitan cities like Chennai, Bengaluru, Mumbai, Delhi, Hyderabad and Ahmedabad. During my India visit, I made it a point to schedule a trip to Chennai, where I will be meeting companies that have been successfully established there: so, that includes Renault’s Kwid assembly plant and the Saint-Gobain research and development centre.

Urban development, smart cities and renewable energy are particularly promising sectors. More than 60 French companies with recognized expertise are now operating in India. French authorities have organised more than twenty French companies’ delegations / roadshows in various Indian states and cities. During the State Visit of President François Hollande in January 2016, France entered into a preferred partnership with the cities of Chandigarh, Nagpur and Pondicherry with the view to offering them assistance and expertise on their participation to the Smart City mission.

*Some French regions and cities have also entered into direct cooperation with Indian authorities, like the one between Bordeaux Metropole and the State of Telangana for Hyderabad city on various matters, such as aerospace, urban transportation, water and heritage management. Centre Val de Loire has cooperation with Tamil Nadu since 2008. Similarly there is ongoing cooperation since 2011 with Region des Pays de la Loire, which has opened a permanent representative office in Chennai.*

*Q: Regarding the €7.87 billion deal for purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft by India, what kind of technologies will the French industry transfer and develop with Indian defence labs? How will France / French firms help build capacity in India to make them part of the French global defence supply chain to execute the offset requirements?*

A: The Rafale deal is a major strategic success that forms part of a longstanding and close defence relationship between our two countries, and paves the way for unprecedented strengthening of our technological and industrial cooperation. The offsets contract was concluded between French companies and Indian authorities, so I’m not in a position to provide you its details. They will define, together with Indian companies, how the required transfers of technology will be implemented. I believe they have already made good progress on this.

What I can tell you, though, is that the offsets will contribute to a soaring, solid and autonomous defence industry in India. France perfectly understands this quest for strategic autonomy, which is a goal that we ourselves have been pursuing since decades. We welcome our cooperation with India in implementing this.

*Q: (French rail transport major) Alstom had bagged an over €3 billion contract to supply Indian Railways with 800 freight electric locomotives and carry out the related long-term maintenance. However, Alstom was in trouble recently as it had announced plans to halt production in Belfort (France), and the French state (which holds a 20% stake in the company) had to face criticism regarding a rescue package aimed at saving around 400 jobs. Will the multinational company’s troubles have any impact on its Indian operations and the $3 billion contract with Indian Railways?*

A:* Alstom and the French government recently held talks on the future of Belfort site, and more generally on the situation of Alstom’s different sites in France.* The government, Alstom and stakeholders elaborated a joint plan which will preserve Alstom’s strong technological expertise on several segments of the railway market, in particular locomotives. Therefore, those talks will have no impact on Alstom’s operations in India, including the contract you mention.

*Q: It was reported that France is aiming to be a major protein supplier by 2030 with plans to hike investments into ‘intelligent food’ from vegetable & animal sources. India had recently allowed 100 per cent foreign direct investment in marketing of food products produced & manufactured in India. Can you share some details on the proposed collaboration between India and France in food processing, food technology and retail industries?*

A: French companies are also involved in Make in India in the* food processing industry. Axereal, Bongrain, Danone, Lactalis, Limagrain, Pernod-Ricard, Roquette and Soufflet – to mention but a few – are all European or world leaders successfully established in India. *These food companies are well aware of the advantages of investing in India: abundant agricultural supply at a low price, diversification of agricultural production which can be transformed, and the possibility of selling not only in the Indian market but also exporting to the Middle-East or Southeast Asia.

It is also well known that the French agricultural and food processing industries innovate constantly, be it in packaging, preservation methods, or nutritional aspects, what you called ‘intelligent food’. And this is done with the constant aim of adapting to consumer needs.

Regarding innovation and technologies, France is a leader in building world class equipment for food processing companies. In this domain, we have companies specializing in* cold chain, packaging solutions and every food processing sector: dairy, bakery, meat, grains processing, fruit and vegetable processing*. France is already involved in training Indian experts in the cold chain field. This is a partnership based on knowledge sharing and awareness of better technologies.

In a nutshell, the potential is indeed immense not only for the food processing groups, but also for equipment manufacturers for this industry. The Goods and Services Tax reform as well as the new FDI policy in this sector are certainly strong positive signals. It will definitely help attract more investments in India, and more innovations from French companies.

*Q: France had welcomed India’s recent ratification of the Paris climate change pact. Will this lead to higher French investments in India’s renewable energy sector?*

A: Our authorities have stated on many occasions how India played a driving role in the adoption of the Paris Agreement in December 2015. Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s decision to ratify the Agreement also helped accelerate its entry into force, which will take place on 4th November. Also, France supported India’s initiative on the International Solar Alliance, which will help attain the goals of the Paris Agreement by facilitating access to solar energy.

India has fixed the target of producing 40 per cent of its electricity from non-fossil fuels by 2030, while meeting its vast energy needs that are necessary for nurturing its economic growth. Prime Minister Modi’s impetus has already resulted in a remarkable development of* Indian capacities in renewable, which today has attained 44 GW. *France is, of course, ready to extend all assistance – and has already done so. Did you know that 10 per cent of India’s installed solar capacity is provided by French companies? The French Development Agency (AFD) was among the first to back this emerging sector via two credit lines extended to the Indian renewable energy development agency (IREDA).

French companies, which have recognised expertise and know-how in the renewable energy sector, are already present in the market and participate in tenders floated in this sector. Thus, we can anticipate a major increase in French investments in this area.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

BON PLAN said:


> Except the two way datalink (and maybe not...) it's BS as usual from guys speaking about things they don't understand.


Modifying the bidirectional radar link does not pose any feasibility problem. And this option is each time offered to our prospect including 5 clients Forces, including the IAF, without yet having been adopted to date. 

IAF would therefore be not competent because of its choice not to retain an option SAAB think critical to performance?

Similarly as for aircraft equipped with two-way datalink, a one-way datalink does not prevent to change course, as soon as the missile is gone, so it does not get too directly toward the target.

A bidirectional datalink enables to know whether the seeker is locked or not, which in keeping in mind relative velocities, takes place shortly before the interception.

The time gain is so low that neither the French Airforces nor the IAF have chosen this option.

The future side antennas on the Rafale and rotating antenna on the Gripen will allow only to modify more the road once the missile fired .

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## abc123xyx

inplace of MII quest for f16_ its far more productive to keep buying rafale in small numbers and keep pressing for better offset options.

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## BON PLAN

O.P.D said:


> inplace of MII quest for f16_ its far more productive to keep buying rafale in small numbers and keep pressing for better offset options.


why in small number ?
The Rafale is not so costly some newspaper say. 95€ millions each. A F16 costs 60 millions and a SH18 85 millions.

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## dadeechi

O.P.D said:


> inplace of MII quest for f16_ its far more productive to keep buying rafale in small numbers and keep pressing for better offset options.




RAFALE MII would happen but only after the F-16 deal is done. 

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/with-wink-and-a-handshake-india-russia-agrees-to-double-brahmos-range-on-existing-inventory.458260/page-2#ixzz4OREXegfV


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## R&D

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> Modifying the bidirectional radar link does not pose any feasibility problem. And this option is each time offered to our prospect including 5 clients Forces, including the IAF, without yet having been adopted to date.
> 
> IAF would therefore be not competent because of its choice not to retain an option SAAB think critical to performance?
> 
> Similarly as for aircraft equipped with two-way datalink, a one-way datalink does not prevent to change course, as soon as the missile is gone, so it does not get too directly toward the target.
> 
> A bidirectional datalink enables to know whether the seeker is locked or not, which in keeping in mind relative velocities, takes place shortly before the interception.
> 
> The time gain is so low that neither the French Airforces nor the IAF have chosen this option.
> 
> The future side antennas on the Rafale and rotating antenna on the Gripen will allow only to modify more the road once the missile fired .



What will it take for 100% Rafale to be Made in India ? 

How many orders ?


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## halloweene

R&D said:


> What will it take for 100% Rafale to be Made in India ?
> 
> How many orders ?



DGA CEO talked briefly about it in front of the parliament commission 2 days ago. He simply stated that he hoped much more orders as µIAF would be very happy with its Rafale and in this case building Rafale in India should be envisaged.

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## rockstarIN

halloweene said:


> DGA CEO talked briefly about it in front of the parliament commission 2 days ago. He simply stated that he hoped much more orders as µIAF would be very happy with its Rafale and in this case building Rafale in India should be envisaged.



Is france ready for full ToT if there is 200+ orders?


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## Picdelamirand-oil

rockstarIN said:


> Is france ready for full ToT if there is 200+ orders?


France was ready for full ToT for 126. If there is a 90 order in MII context it is likely that the first Rafale will be 30% build in India and the last will be 100% build in India as the next batch after 90.

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## R&D

halloweene said:


> DGA CEO talked briefly about it in front of the parliament commission 2 days ago. He simply stated that he hoped much more orders as µIAF would be very happy with its Rafale and in this case building Rafale in India should be envisaged.



So its safe to say that for now France has no plans to build 100% Rafale in India.



Picdelamirand-oil said:


> France was ready for full ToT for 126. If there is a 90 order in MII context it is likely that the first Rafale will be 30% build in India and the last will be 100% build in India as the next batch after 90.



Only screw driver tech. Local Assembly after bring all the parts from French vendors. On top of it India has to pay a premium for this "assembly". This kind of hack job was possible under the congress, but its impossible under Modi.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

R&D said:


> So its safe to say that for now France has no plans to build 100% Rafale in India.
> 
> 
> 
> Only screw driver tech. Local Assembly after bring all the parts from French vendors. On top of it India has to pay a premium for this "assembly". This kind of hack job was possible under the congress, but its impossible under Modi.


No 100% build in India cannot be only screw driver tech, but the production of all sub system in India from raw material.

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## R&D

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> No 100% build in India cannot be only screw driver tech, but the production of all sub system in India from raw material.



So what number of Rafale has to be purchased so that no "premium" has to be paid for local manufacture ? (not assembly)


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## randomradio

R&D said:


> So what number of Rafale has to be purchased so that no "premium" has to be paid for local manufacture ? (not assembly)



90.

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## R&D

randomradio said:


> 90.



For god sake can we stop repeating this nonsense again and again in the hope that it will turn true ? 

If we had got 100% ToT for 126 Rafale, you would have already seen a contract for that by now. 

The very fact that we are hunting for a 100% MII contact for a new aircraft should tell you by now that Rafale deal fell through due to lack o ToT for a reasonable price. 

The new contract is for a single engine aircraft only because there is no scope of going for EuroFighter after selecting 36 Rafale and LM and SAAB has already made MII offers when Dassault screwed up the deal. 


All this lies and deceit makes me believe France never had any intention of a 100% ToT on Rafale. At least not for the price negotiated.

In the current scenario, at best Rafale will act like a Plan B if PAK FA fails to deliver on time.

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## Picdelamirand-oil

R&D said:


> For god sake can be stop repeating this nonsense again and again in the hope that it will turn true ?
> 
> If we had got 100% ToT for 126 Rafale, you would have already seen a contract for that by now.
> 
> The very fact that we are hunting for a 100% MII contact for a new aircraft should tell you by now that Rafale deal fell through due to lack o ToT for a reasonable price.
> 
> The new contract is for a single engine aircraft only because there is no scope of going for EuroFighter after selecting 36 Rafale and LM and SAAB has already made MII offers when Dassault screwed up the deal.
> 
> All this lies and deceit makes me believe France never had any intention of a 100% ToT on Rafale. At least not for the price negotiated.
> 
> In the current scenario, at best Rafale will act like a Plan B if PAK FA fails to deliver on time.



There is no new contract.

The MMRCA has been cancelled but will be implemented step by step.
The reason it is not yet implemented is the following:

Dassault to make its price needed the HAL price. But given the leaks in India nobody wanted to show its proposal to HAL in order to prevent it to go to the competitors. So the HAL part of the proposal was not valued, and instead Dassault gave the number of hours that the Indians valued themselves. And HAL said after that he needs 2.7 times more hours which made everything collapse.

The problem that this posed is that opponents said that likely the Rafale was not the L1 due to the increase in price. Indeed this re-evaluation was not made for the Typhoon, since negotiations have ceased. It is likely there would have been the same inflation but bad faith was possible. And if the contract had been past it was challengeable in court. This explains the delays and the final decision of MODI to cancelled MMRCA and to start a new process.

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## Echo_419

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> There is no new contract.
> 
> The MMRCA has been cancelled but will be implemented step by step.
> The reason it is not yet implemented is the following:
> 
> Dassault to make its price needed the HAL price. But given the leaks in India nobody wanted to show its proposal to HAL in order to prevent it to go to the competitors. So the HAL part of the proposal was not valued, and instead Dassault gave the number of hours that the Indians valued themselves. And HAL said after that he needs 2.7 times more hours which made everything collapse.
> 
> The problem that this posed is that opponents said that likely the Rafale was not the L1 due to the increase in price. Indeed this re-evaluation was not made for the Typhoon, since negotiations have ceased. It is likely there would have been the same inflation but bad faith was possible. And if the contract had been past it was challengeable in court. This explains the delays and the final decision of MODI to cancelled MMRCA and to start a new process.



Typical govt company. This wouldn't have happened a private co was leading the project


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## randomradio

R&D said:


> For god sake can be stop repeating this nonsense again and again in the hope that it will turn true ?
> 
> If we had got 100% ToT for 126 Rafale, you would have already seen a contract for that by now.
> 
> The very fact that we are hunting for a 100% MII contact for a new aircraft should tell you by now that Rafale deal fell through due to lack o ToT for a reasonable price.
> 
> The new contract is for a single engine aircraft only because there is no scope of going for EuroFighter after selecting 36 Rafale and LM and SAAB has already made MII offers when Dassault screwed up the deal.
> 
> 
> All this lies and deceit makes me believe France never had any intention of a 100% ToT on Rafale. At least not for the price negotiated.
> 
> In the current scenario, at best Rafale will act like a Plan B if PAK FA fails to deliver on time.



The single engine contract is independent from Rafale.

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## R&D

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> There is no new contract.
> 
> The MMRCA has been cancelled but will be implemented step by step.
> The reason it is not yet implemented is the following:
> 
> Dassault to make its price needed the HAL price. But given the leaks in India nobody wanted to show its proposal to HAL in order to prevent it to go to the competitors. So the HAL part of the proposal was not valued, and instead Dassault gave the number of hours that the Indians valued themselves. And HAL said after that he needs 2.7 times more hours which made everything collapse.
> 
> The problem that this posed is that opponents said that likely the Rafale was not the L1 due to the increase in price. Indeed this re-evaluation was not made for the Typhoon, since negotiations have ceased. It is likely there would have been the same inflation but bad faith was possible. And if the contract had been past it was challengeable in court. This explains the delays and the final decision of MODI to cancelled MMRCA and to start a new process.



If you don't mind, I will cut through the BS, 

This is the crux of your argument. 

1. Dassault gave the number of hours that the Indians valued themselves. 

2. HAL said after that he needs 2.7 times more hours 


What this really means is YOU VALUED HAL's cost at "X" WITHOUT consulting HAL. 

HAL said it wants "2.7X". 

E.g. You told HAL that you will give it Rs. 100 per hour of work. 

HAL said , it wants Rs. 270 per hour of work. 

So you translated that for the ignorant public as Rs. 100 per hour of work, but HAL needs 2.7 Hours more  


Only the GoI saw through this BS and called your bluff, cancelled the MMRCA an started a new RFP. This is the gist of the matter. 

Way I see it is that non of this is HAL's fault or MoD's fault. 


Dassault should have made it work with HAL since they were the one who proposed to the GoI and spoke on behalf of HAL as if they were doing HAL some favour. Sorry to be so blunt. 



Echo_419 said:


> Typical govt company. This wouldn't have happened a private co was leading the project



You are a Moron. 

Can you read ? The problem was not with HAL, it was with the foreign companies who refused to trust HAL fearing leaks nor consult HAL for its production costs. 

The Irony is that French are famous for leaks as proved by the Scorpene deal which the Navy now has to clean up.



randomradio said:


> The single engine contract is independent from Rafale.



Nothing is independent. Everything is interrelated and Inter dependent. What a naive thing to say.


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## randomradio

R&D said:


> If you don't mind, I will cut through the BS,
> 
> This is the crux of your argument.
> 
> 1. Dassault gave the number of hours that the Indians valued themselves.
> 
> 2. HAL said after that he needs 2.7 times more hours
> 
> 
> What this really means is YOU VALUED HAL's cost at "X" WITHOUT consulting HAL.
> 
> HAL said it wants "2.7X".
> 
> E.g. You told HAL that you will give it Rs. 100 per hour of work.
> 
> HAL said , it wants Rs. 270 per hour of work.
> 
> So you translated that for the ignorant public as Rs. 100 per hour of work, but HAL needs 2.7 Hours more
> 
> 
> Only the GoI saw through this BS and called your bluff, cancelled the MMRCA an started a new RFP. This is the gist of the matter.
> 
> Way I see it is that non of this is HAL's fault or MoD's fault.
> 
> 
> Dassault should have made it work with HAL since they were the one who proposed to the GoI and spoke on behalf of HAL as if they were doing HAL some favour. Sorry to be so blunt.
> 
> 
> 
> You are a Moron.
> 
> Can you read ? The problem was not with HAL, it was with the foreign companies who refused to trust HAL fearing leaks nor consult HAL for its production costs.
> 
> The Irony is that French are famous for leaks as proved by the Scorpene deal which the Navy now has to clean up.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing is independent. Everything is interrelated and Inter dependent. What a naive thing to say.



You apparently can't understand simple statements.

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## R&D

randomradio said:


> You apparently can't understand simple statements.



On the contrary, I can translate BS into simple statements which many find hard to swallow.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

R&D said:


> On the contrary, I can translate BS into simple statements which many find hard to swallow.


So in your theory Dassault have made a lot of mistake resulting in the sale of 36 Rafale. We will see how the situation is evolving.

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## R&D

Picdelamirand-oil said:


> So in your theory Dassault have made a lot of mistake resulting in the sale of 36 Rafale. We will see how the situation is evolving.



Mistake or not is for Dassault for decide in their best interest. How can I make that judgement call ? 

What a foolish conclusion.


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## rockstarIN

I think it was Dassault's call not to provide critical technologies to India, at the cost of 200+ further orders.(money was not a problem)

India is going for single engine jet fighter for 200+ or 300 provided we get full ToT. plus LCA programme, hence no further Rafale orders. 

Dassult is waiting in sidelines, expecting more orders if single engine jet OEM does not provide full technology.

my two cents..

@Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil


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## DavidSling

*Rafael and Reliance Defence negotiate systems provision for Indian Rafale*




04 OCTOBER, 2016

BY: ARIE EGOZI

TEL AVIV


Rafael and its partner, Reliance Defence, are negotiating a contract to supply the Indian air force with Israeli-developed systems for its Dassault Rafale fighter.

The negotiations focus on the Rafael Litening 5 targeting pod, the Spice family of guided weapons, and either the advanced Python-5 or Derby air-to-air missiles.

These discussions follow a 23 September announcement that India and France had signed a €7.75 billion ($8.69 billion) deal for 36 Rafales.

The Indian air force has previously equipped some of its existing fighter fleet with Rafael systems, and Indian delegations that have visited Israel in recent months have said they want to have these systems on the Rafale.







Dassault

In March, Indian company Reliance Defence and Rafael set up a joint venture to develop air-to-air missiles, smart weapons and advanced payloads, based at Dhirubhai Ambani Land Systems Park in Pithampur, India.

Rafael refused to comment on the current effort in India.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...ance-defence-negotiate-systems-provis-430033/

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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
18-November, 2016 19:01 IST
Procurement of Fighter Aircraft 

An Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) along with Aircraft & Weapons Package Supply Protocols and Technical Arrangement were signed with the French Government on 23rd September, 2016 for procurement of 36 Rafale aircraft in fly-away condition. The deliveries will commence from September, 2019.


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## BON PLAN

kahonapyarhai said:


> Sign in | Create a Rediffmail account
> Rediff.com » News » 4 reasons why Rafale could ruin Modi and Parrikar's party
> *4 reasons why Rafale could ruin Modi and Parrikar's party*
> ShareComment
> To get such articles in your inbox
> Text size: A A A
> September 23, 2016 09:47 IST
> 
> 
> *Ajai Shukla explains why there is considerable discomfort within the defence ministry about the Rafale deal.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On a warm Delhi evening on April 3, 2015, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had left his South Block office and was driving to catch his flight to Goa, when his mobile phone received an incoming call from the Prime Minister's Office.
> 
> Could he come in urgently, an official asked, the PM would like to talk briefly.
> 
> When Parrikar reached the PMO, Prime Minister Narendra Modi sprang a bombshell.
> 
> Parrikar was told that, on Modi's forthcoming trip to Paris, he and French President Francois Hollande would announce an agreement for India to buy 36 Rafale fighters.
> 
> During Modi's nine-day tour of France, Germany and Canada, Parrikar would have to manage the media and field the inevitable questions.
> 
> Taken aback, Parrikar still caught his flight to Goa. Over the next week, he batted loyally on behalf of his PM, publicly defending a decision he neither understood nor agreed with, that was taken over his head, and that senior ministry of defence officials warned him would be difficult to defend.
> 
> Today, 17 months later, most pledges that Parrikar issued in defence of Modi's Rafale agreement have proven incorrect.
> 
> He told the Press Trust of India in Goa that all 36 Rafale fighters would join the IAF within two years; in fact more than six years will elapse before the final delivery is made.
> 
> He repeated the Modi-Hollande undertaking that the price would be 'on terms that would be better than' Dassault's bid in the now cancelled tender for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft. It now turns out that India will pay a vastly higher price.
> 
> But Parrikar, through 17 months of defending a deal that was not his, has become the face of the Rafale.
> 
> And after Friday, when he and his visiting French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian sign an inter-governmental agreement for 36 Rafales, Parrikar -- and not Modi -- will answer for the purchase.
> 
> There is disquiet within the MoD about the acquisition, with officials concerned about subsequent scrutiny by Constitutional authorities like the Comptroller and Auditor General. Their key worries are as follows.
> 
> E*xorbitant cost*
> 
> A key element in price negotiations is 'benchmarking', or comparing Dassault's price with other contracts involving the same fighter.
> 
> With India, Dassault had already established a benchmark in the MMRCA acquisition, where it had quoted a price for 18 fully built Rafales, just like the 36 fighters that India is now buying.
> 
> Speaking to Doordarshan on April 13, 2015, Parrikar had revealed Rafale's bid for 126 fighters, stating: 'When you talk of 126 (_Rafale_) aircraft, it becomes a purchase of about Rs 90,000 crore' -- Rs 715 crore per fighter after adding all costs.
> 
> Now Parrikar would be buying 36 Rafale fighters for Euro 7.8 billion (over Rs 58,000 crore), which is over Rs 1,600 crore per aircraft -- more than double the earlier price.
> 
> True, the current contract includes elements that were not there in the 126 fighter MMRCA tender -- including a superior weapons package with Meteor missiles; and performance-based logistics, which bind Dassault to ensure that a stipulated percentage of the Rafale fleet remains combat-ready at all times. The percentage is guessed to be about 75 to 80 per cent, an unchallenging target for Western fighter types.
> 
> Even deducting Euro 2.8 billion for the weapons and PBL from the anticipated Euro 7.8 billion contract amount, a Euro 5 billion (over Rs 37,000 crore) price tag for 36 Rafales puts the ticker price of each at over Rs 1,000 crore.
> 
> For that the IAF can buy two-and-a-half Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters -- a heavy fighter as capable as the Rafale.
> 
> V*ariation in fighter types*
> 
> IAF logisticians, who already struggle to maintain, repair and support six different types of fighters -- the Sukhoi-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21 and the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft -- are hardly welcoming the prospect of a seventh fighter type, which would require expensive, tailor-made base infrastructure, repair depots and spare parts chains.
> 
> Air power experts say more Sukhoi-30MKIs would eliminate this need, besides being cheaper.
> 
> Alternatively, fast-tracking the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft, which Russia and India intend to co-develop, would eliminate the need for Rafales.
> 
> Even if the IAF exercises an option clause for 18 more Rafales, there would be just three operational squadrons, like with the Mirage 2000.
> 
> Besides the options clause, nine more Rafales would be needed, since an IAF squadron has 21 fighters.
> 
> S*overeign guarantees*
> 
> While New Delhi is negotiating the Rafale purchase directly with the private vendor, Dassault, the MoD wants sovereign guarantees from the French government, of the kind that come with American equipment bought through the Foreign Military Sales route.
> 
> In a FMS procurement -- India's C-130J Super Hercules purchase -- the US Department of Defence (the Pentagon) sets up a dedicated 'project management team' that negotiates on the buyer's behalf, beating down the price, establishing training and logistics support, and providing assurance that the buyer gets everything needed to operate and maintain the product.
> 
> Alongside FMS support, corruption is deterred by the stringent US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which vendors seldom dare to violate. This provides comfort to Indian MoD officials against subsequent allegations raised against a deal.
> 
> Paris, in contrast, is only willing to give a lukewarm written assurance of support with the Rafale -- something that the MoD refers to disparagingly as a 'comfort letter.'
> 
> P*iecemeal contracting*
> 
> India needs some 200 to 300 fighters to replace the MiG-21 and MiG-27 fleet that is being phased out of service. Just 36 Rafales provides little cover, so the IAF hopes to buy not just 18 more under the options clause, but perhaps another tranche later.
> 
> MoD officials complain that piecemeal contracting provides little leverage for beating down prices.
> 
> The same problem will afflict the procurement of the Gripen NG, or F-16s, which the MoD is weighing as possible options to replace retiring fighters.
> 
> With an IGA in the offing, and a formal contract yet to be negotiated, New Delhi would still have the opportunity to address these issues, say MoD officials.
> 
> Yet, the IGA on Friday will be celebrated in the IAF as a giant step towards a fighter they have pursued tenaciously for 15 years.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.rediff.com/news/column/f...ld-ruin-modi-and-parrikars-party/20160923.htm


TOTALLY BULL SHIT !!!!

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## Echo_419

BON PLAN said:


> TOTALLY BULL SHIT !!!!



The author of that article is a know US mole, no need to worry about him


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## ranadd

Ajai Shukla... "Yes, Boeing, LM etc... I will be writing the trash piece on rafale today itself."

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## debspark90

Why has this thread gone silent???
Any further updates on Rafale or further orders in MII scheme etc ?

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## #hydra#

debspark90 said:


> Why has this thread gone silent???
> Any further updates on Rafale or further orders in MII scheme etc ?


Reason 126 to mere 36 figure.

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## Taygibay

Silence is fine and besides, I heard lots of noises of people working.
This for instance :
India’s defence research agency has signed a deal with French engine maker Snecma to revive
and certify the Kaveri engine, before powering a flight of Tejas light combat aircraft prototype by 2018.

Snecma, as part of the offsets deal for the 36 Rafale jets India bought for its air force, would handhold
the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), which has designed Kaveri, to fix gaps in its performance,
address safety concerns, certify and fly it on a Tejas light combat aircraft.
The Rs 600 odd crore expense for Snecma, which powers the Rafale jets, would be adjusted
against the 50 per cent offsets that it is mandated to spend in India.​http://defenceupdate.in/drdo-ties-snecma-revive-gas-turbine-engine-tejas/​
The teams that implement offsets are one by one
solving their task planning and assessing value.
Remember that they have six months to do so and
that until then, it's mostly senior engineers and sales
and management so sounds are likely hush convos,
pens scratching paper/fingers tapping keyboards and
power supply units/fans humming along.
That's well below the listening threshold of most journos.


But if loud is what you need, have this and a good day, Tay.





​

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## dadeechi

debspark90 said:


> Why has this thread gone silent???
> Any further updates on Rafale or further orders in MII scheme etc ?



Calm before the storm

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## BON PLAN

#hydra# said:


> Reason 126 to mere 36 figure.





#hydra# said:


> Reason 126 to mere 36 figure.


you mean "the first 36"....
As it is absolutely inconceivable India adapt two bases only for 36 planes.... In france, in Saint Dizier air base, there are more than 40 Rafale.
You will baught at least another batch of 36.

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## debspark90

Yes its absolutely no point in just taking 36. It would be rather like a consolation prize for France to please them and not keep them in the fray. 
And IAF wouldn't have bothered. The amount of dedication and attention they have invested shows. Or else time to time IAF officers wouldn't have praised it's capabilities even compare with J20.


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## BON PLAN

debspark90 said:


> Yes its absolutely no point in just taking 36. It would be rather like a consolation prize for France to please them and not keep them in the fray.
> And IAF wouldn't have bothered. The amount of dedication and attention they have invested shows. Or else time to time IAF officers wouldn't have praised it's capabilities even compare with J20.


A consolation prize? A gift of nearly *8 billions*? You are not serious.

J20 ? wake me up when it will be fully operational. For now it's only prototyps or pre serial.

Remember for exemple that some chineese destroyers bulkhead are made of wood .... just imagine how the J20 may be made...

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## sathya

Taygibay said:


> Silence is fine and besides, I heard lots of noises of people working.
> T
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​



thanks for the video share, 
interest of myn is the carrier take off..
NLCA took off somewhat similar, i was worried about the vibrations.. looks like it a common thing.

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## Centurion2016

India will buy rafales for certain 

They are very very expensive so it batches Is the most affordable way.

36 between 2019 and 2022

36 ordered again in 2021 for delivery 2023/2026 

Then again in 2029/2032

India will field 100.rafales by 2035 along side 100 FGFA 

The Tejas and su30mki will form the back bone with 200.each

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## Taygibay

sathya said:


> i was worried about the vibrations.. looks like it a common thing.



Of course, mate! Accelerating a 15 to 35 tons object
to a minimum speed of 130some km/h in 150m or less
will shake it up by nature so unless it's all one piece *** ,
parts will vibrate, especially/even more so on a catapult.

All the best at home, Tay.

*** And if any navy ever launches a 30 thousand kilo anvil ...
I'll be more interested in the blacksmith than the carrier.

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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
22-November, 2016 15:16 IST
*Rafale Fighter Jets Deal *

The induction of 36 Rafale aircraft will enhance the operational capabilities of the IAF.

The costs of the 36 aircraft cannot be directly compared to the cost of the original MMRCA bids since the deliverables are significantly different. Although there is no Transfer of Technology (ToT) involved in the procurement of the 36 aircraft, the provision for 50% offsets has been retained. The delivery schedule, maintenance arrangement and product support under the Inter-Governmental Agreement are also more beneficial.

This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Dr. Subhash Bhamre in a written reply to Shri AU Singh Deo in Rajya Sabha today.

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## debspark90

Centurion2016 said:


> India will buy rafales for certain
> 
> They are very very expensive so it batches Is the most affordable way.
> 
> 36 between 2019 and 2022
> 
> 36 ordered again in 2021 for delivery 2023/2026
> 
> Then again in 2029/2032
> 
> India will field 100.rafales by 2035 along side 100 FGFA
> 
> The Tejas and su30mki will form the back bone with 200.each



I don't think if we need more and more we won't be taking off the shelf deliveries from France. Its better to manufacture them here and this would lower the prices a lot more plus there won't be extra costs which were given this time as one time investment only.


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## IblinI

BON PLAN said:


> A consolation prize? A gift of nearly *8 billions*? You are not serious.
> 
> J20 ? wake me up when it will be fully operational. For now it's only prototyps or pre serial.
> 
> Remember for exemple that some chineese destroyers bulkhead are made of wood .... just imagine how the J20 may be made...


You are right..

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## 4GTejasBVR

Taygibay said:


> Silence is fine and besides, I heard lots of noises of people working.
> This for instance :
> India’s defence research agency has signed a deal with French engine maker Snecma to revive
> and certify the Kaveri engine, before powering a flight of Tejas light combat aircraft prototype by 2018.
> 
> Snecma, as part of the offsets deal for the 36 Rafale jets India bought for its air force, would handhold
> the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), which has designed Kaveri, to fix gaps in its performance,
> address safety concerns, certify and fly it on a Tejas light combat aircraft.
> The Rs 600 odd crore expense for Snecma, which powers the Rafale jets, would be adjusted
> against the 50 per cent offsets that it is mandated to spend in India.​http://defenceupdate.in/drdo-ties-snecma-revive-gas-turbine-engine-tejas/​
> The teams that implement offsets are one by one
> solving their task planning and assessing value.
> Remember that they have six months to do so and
> that until then, it's mostly senior engineers and sales
> and management so sounds are likely hush convos,
> pens scratching paper/fingers tapping keyboards and
> power supply units/fans humming along.
> That's well below the listening threshold of most journos.
> 
> 
> But if loud is what you need, have this and a good day, Tay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


Awesome video.

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## Naif al Hilali

From Hush Kit:

November 21, 2016
*The Rafale and Peter Collins*





Image: Dassault

I was sad to hear that Peter Collins passed away this Summer. Collins flew Harrier GR3s with the RAF, Sea Harriers in the Falklands on exchange with the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm, and the VAAC Harrier (which was instrumental in developing the flight control laws for the F-35B). He also flew with the Red Arrows. Flying both the exceptionally demanding Harrier and as a member of one of the world’s best aerobatic teams show him to have been an exceptionally gifted pilot.

Peter later became Flight International’s test pilot. His glowing review of the Rafale was particularly interesting. With his great experience and knowledge of flying fighter aircraft, I was keen to ask his opinion on modern fighters. I was also asked him about the perennial Rafale versus Typhoon question. As he has flown Rafale and has the Typhoon simulator (programmed to represent the latest variant) he was one of the most qualified to discuss this subject. It was last December that I had the chance to bombard him with my schoolboy questions. 

In regards to within-visual range combat he noted:

_ “This is always difficult to call. The Typhoon helmet mounted display, especially in the yet to be ordered Striker 2 version, is superb. I think the Rafale would eat Typhoon below 10,000ft. The Bug (legacy Hornet) is also superb” _

Peter was a staunch supporter of the Rafale, and believed many underestimate it.

_“My 2009 article for Flight international stands. If I was buying a multi-role aircraft I would buy Rafale but an awful lot of politics, economics, offset deals, military preference and bias comes in the way…I’m not paid by Dassault or Eurofighter. Remember that the Rafale is designed to replace seven French types: Jaguar, Marine F-8 Crusader, Marine Super Etendard, Mirage F1, Mirage F1R, M2000C and the M2000N – which is probably why it is optimised for lower levels. It is recce-, nuclear (ASMP)- , carrier-capable (something Typhoon will never be), it has AESA, is getting Meteor, drops SCALP, Hammer and LGB. It has better low-observable shaping, and will stick with Typhoon below 20,000 feet. It has very good electronic countermeasures in SPECTRA, and has better flight control system characteristics (I’ve flown it). It also has GPS based, and therefore silent, auto terrain following. It also has forward optics for visual identification. It is the best fighter aircraft I have ever flown.” _

He was also mindful of the pitfalls of writing about military aircraft _“Careful you don’t put your name to something and be seen as a ‘useful idiot’ by an aircraft manufacturer.” _Indeed, much of aviation ‘journalism’ is the uncritical copy and pasting of press statements, and this is an important thing to remember.

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## Louiq XIV

I haven't read this information here and I don't know if it can be trusted.

It looks like France has promised 50 years of product support for Indian Rafale.






*The most eye catching detail about the Rafael deal disclosed in the Indian Parliament was product support to the 36 combat jets for 50 years.*

New Delhi (Sputnik) — The Indian Government on Tuesday disclosed some details of the $ 8.85 billion deal to purchase French combat aircraft. Among them is a promise by French company Dassault Aviation to provide product support for five decades.

India had cancelled a 126 jet tender in which the French company had emerged the winner. It later awarded a contract for supplying 36 planes in fly-away condition to the same company, Dassault.

“The terms of the procurement include five years of performance based logistics (PBL) with options for additional seven year extension. The terms also provide for 50 years’ product support by the manufacturer,” informed Manohar Parrikar, India’s Minister of Defense to the Parliament.

“The deliveries of the aircraft will commence in September 2019 and will be completed in April 2022,” Parrikar added. Under the contract, Dassault will make India-specific changes to the aircraft and mount different types of missiles: beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air Meteor, short and medium range air-to-air MICA and precision guided air-to-ground SCALP missiles. The procurement includes a provision for offsets of 50 percent of the value of the Aircraft and Weapons Package.

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201611231047742056-india-rafale-jets/

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## royalharris

BON PLAN said:


> A consolation prize? A gift of nearly *8 billions*? You are not serious.
> 
> J20 ? wake me up when it will be fully operational. For now it's only prototyps or pre serial.
> 
> Remember for exemple that some chineese destroyers bulkhead are made of wood .... just imagine how the J20 may be made...


funny guy
make up funny story to our lovely neighbours


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## IblinI

royalharris said:


> funny guy
> make up funny story to our lovely neighbours







This is all they need to know

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## BON PLAN

YuChen said:


> This is all they need to know


Thanks a lot !!!!!

To Royalharris :

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## IblinI

BON PLAN said:


> Thanks a lot !!!!!
> 
> To Royalharris :


You are welcome.

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## nang2

debspark90 said:


> Why has this thread gone silent???
> Any further updates on Rafale or further orders in MII scheme etc ?


http://www.janes.com/article/65752/french-c-130-hercules-fleet-suffering-low-availability-rates

it also mentioned the less-than-half availability of rafale serving french air force. I wonder how France will help India maintain 75% availability.


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## BON PLAN

nang2 said:


> http://www.janes.com/article/65752/french-c-130-hercules-fleet-suffering-low-availability-rates
> 
> it also mentioned the less-than-half availability of rafale serving french air force. I wonder how France will help India maintain 75% availability.


It's only a question of how much money you put in the support ! same problem with NH90, Tiger helo, MBT ....
France doesn't need to have all the 150 Rafale with a 75% availability. Our level is enough to assure all our operations in the over seas theatre, training and the air police of France.

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## Shajida Khan

Thing with Rafale is that it is an all French aircraft. Airframe, Engine, Sensors, Avionics, a good chunk of weapons package. Meaning it is much easier to make decisions around it and a single source of spares. The beaurocratic nightmare of getting agreement with 4-5 different countries in case of Eurofighter Typhoon is simply impossible to work with. US choice is out because Russian choice is out. India does not want to unequally annoy either of them. Swedes do not have their own engine. This leaves France and France it will be.

French have an excellent record in being a reliable supplier to India and to Pakistan as well. India now has a basic understanding of flight laws and airframe design due to LCA experiment. About time to take it further and implement an indigenous aircraft in 2030-40 timeframe with expert help from French companies.

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## RPK

Rafale News !

Sarsawa Air Force Station under the Western Air command of IAF is likely to house the first Rafale Squadron of IAF.

A team of Dassault Aviation, manufacturer of the Rafale visited the airbase last month to carry out feasibility study and improvements needed for making it home for the Combat jet.

Source :- UNI

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## X_Killer

sancho said:


> Mirage 2000 emptywt - 7500Kg
> Gripen E - 8000Kg
> F16 Block 52 - 9200Kg
> Rafale - 9500Kg
> F16 IN - with AESA, IRST, CFTs with refuelling probe..., around 9900Kg
> 
> 
> 
> Because it's not a medium class fighter.


Su-34 is a heavyweight air superiority fighter and MMRCA itself meant for medium multi role combat Aircraft.


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## Picdelamirand-oil

*India needs about 200-250 Rafales to maintain edge: Outgoing IAF chief Arup Raha*

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...in-edge-outgoing-iaf-chief-arup-raha-4448992/




> It is tremendously capable in all its role. It is a multi-role aircraft and can be used very effectively. It can prove its worth in any situation,” Raha said.

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## Taygibay

Just a small thing found while roaming the Net :





http://www.avionslegendaires.net/produit/poster-rafale-indian-air-force/​This is a poster IRL, found on the site Avions Légendaires.
It will set you back 20 € but is a limited edition of 40x60 cm
with a very nice retro look. And while I rarely back commercial
endeavours, Avions Légendaires is a treasure trove for avia fans
with the only flaw of being in French or just about.
http://www.avionslegendaires.net​Aapka Din Mangalmay Ho, Tay.

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## CNL-PN-AA

The number of posts you have created must exceed: 29 (Yours: 20)
The number of days you have been registered is not enough.................................................................

Never mind ...... I shall keep my infos for me and myself ......


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## Taygibay

What did you mean there, CNL-PA-AA? To create a thread?
Because you can obviously post or the above is really weird!

If so, can't it be posted in an existing thread? Let us now. bis

Have a great day, Tay.


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## BON PLAN

CNL-PN-AA said:


> The number of posts you have created must exceed: 29 (Yours: 20)
> The number of days you have been registered is not enough.................................................................
> 
> Never mind ...... I shall keep my infos for me and myself ......


Hi !
Do you have some more news about a hypothetical up rated M88 for Qatar's Rafale? We find no news in france about that.


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## randomradio

CNL-PN-AA said:


> The number of posts you have created must exceed: 29 (Yours: 20)
> The number of days you have been registered is not enough.................................................................
> 
> Never mind ...... I shall keep my infos for me and myself ......





Taygibay said:


> What did you mean there, CNL-PA-AA? To create a thread?
> Because you can obviously post or the above is really weird!
> 
> If so, can't it be posted in an existing thread? Let us now. bis
> 
> Have a great day, Tay.



He cannot post links yet. This is what he wanted to share.

http://www.defens-aero.com/2017/01/rafale-indiens-denomination-rafale-eh-rafale-dh.html

*THE RAFALES INDIANS WILL BEAR THE DENOMINATION RAFALE EH AND RAFALE DH*
11 JANUARY 2017

Written by Loïc and published since Overblog




© JL. Brunet / Air Force - A Rafale B rolling in front of an Indian SU-30MKI during the Franco-Indian exercise Garuda V.

EXCLUSIVE!

Since September 23, 2016, and after the failure of negotiations in the MMRCA contract, India has formally acquired 36 Rafale "off the shelf" from the French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation, for a total amount estimated at about 7, 8 billion euros.

Since then, the production of the first hunters has started in the French companies that are partners of the Rafale program, as well as the training in France of the first Indian aviators.

Moreover, pending the delivery of the first aircraft is expected to start from 2019 and the start of development work by the Indian Air Force on its air bases, details continue to be data standards such Rafale .

Indeed, and according to our information, the Indian Rafale single-seaters will bear the denomination Rafale EH, while the two-seater version will be called Rafale DH.

As for Egypt and Qatar, the letter "D" is a reference to Double (or Dual), since it is here the two-seater Rafales.

The letter "H", common to both versions, comes from the word "Hindustan". The etymology of the word "Hindustan" finds its source in the Iranian language, the Persian.

Wikipedia explains that "the term" Hindustan "is derived from the Persian Hindū. In old Persian, the area beyond the banks of the Indus was known as the Hinduš, which became Hind or Hindū in modern Persian. It is combined with the Persian suffix -stān (literally "place") to give Hindustan: "the land of Hindū".

In the first century BC, the term "Hein-tu" was commonly used by the Chinese to refer to people from northern India. The term became commonly used under the Mughal empire, which designated its dominion, centered on Delhi and the Punjab, as the Hindustan.

Finally, the letter "E" for the single-seaters is still at this stage an interrogation, but it will not be long.

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## Louiq XIV

Nice picture of a low pass in "snake" formation in northern Chad from "1/4 Gascogne" squadron







https://www.facebook.com/EC1.4Gasco...489121924508/1360201164053292/?type=3&theater

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## anant_s

Taygibay said:


> Aapka Din Mangalmay Ho


bonne journée @Taygibay

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## Taygibay

I don't know why he hasn't transferred the information here
but our own @halloweene has found out which HMD/CS is
going on the Qatari Raffys. He posted this link elsewhere :
http://www.defens-aero.com/dassault...gne-essais-vol-viseur-casque-rafale-qatariens​
Here's a close-up but go check their site for the big pics :



The winner is the Targo II by Elbit. That should prompt a few
reactions and speculations in our Bharatiya brigade. Go gang!

And great day all, Tay.

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## Sloth 22

Taygibay said:


> I don't know why he hasn't transferred the information here
> but our own @halloweene has found out which HMD/CS is
> going on the Qatari Raffys. He posted this link elsewhere :
> http://www.defens-aero.com/dassault...gne-essais-vol-viseur-casque-rafale-qatariens​
> Here's a close-up but go check their site for the big pics :
> View attachment 372374​
> The winner is the Targo II by Elbit. That should prompt a few
> reactions and speculations in our Bharatiya brigade. Go gang!
> 
> And great day all, Tay.



What is the planned production rate for this year?


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## 帅的一匹

Why not USA sell F35 to GCC?


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## Taygibay

Sloth 22 said:


> What is the planned production rate for this year?



The line ramp-up is still on-going so 8 to 12 maybe 16 but deliveries at lower number.
The first full production will start late and show in 2018 and beyond.



wanglaokan said:


> Why not USA sell F35 to GCC?



Because Israel don't wanna?
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de.../12/israel-eyes-exclusive-dibs-f-35/72014016/

Great day both, Tay.

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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> I don't know why he hasn't transferred the information here
> but our own @halloweene has found out which HMD/CS is
> going on the Qatari Raffys. He posted this link elsewhere :
> http://www.defens-aero.com/dassault...gne-essais-vol-viseur-casque-rafale-qatariens​
> Here's a close-up but go check their site for the big pics :
> View attachment 372374​
> The winner is the Targo II by Elbit. That should prompt a few
> reactions and speculations in our Bharatiya brigade. Go gang!
> 
> And great day all, Tay.


In case some don't know, this is the same HMSD that is operational with the LCA.

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## Taygibay

Abingdonboy said:


> In case some don't know, this is the same HMSD that is operational with the LCA.



Exactly my friend and the origin of my comment.
Add that to Astra integration for your Rafales ...

Let's keep up, huh?
All the best to you and yours mate, Tay.

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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> Exactly my friend and the origin of my comment.
> Add that to Astra integration for your Rafales ...
> 
> Let's keep up, huh?
> All the best to you and yours mate, Tay.


What do you make of the speculation about the UAE wanting to have some Indian inclusion in their possible Rafale buy sir?


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## Taygibay

I believe it to be an _either or_ as I discussed with Khafee.

Full load upgraded Rafales coming/inducted in a few years
or​They arrive fast and are likely to include integrated products
to the UAE's liking from previous export standards.

The latter would be to save on time only, not skimp on money.

Tay.

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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> I believe it to be an _either or_ as I discussed with Khafee.
> 
> Full load upgraded Rafales coming/inducted in a few years
> or​They arrive fast and are likely to include integrated products
> to the UAE's liking from previous export standards.
> 
> The latter would be to save on time only, not skimp on money.
> 
> Tay.


Would make sense from the UAE's perspective to ride on the back of the IAF's considerable investment ($2BN) in creating an IAF specific upgraded version, they can then get a much improved machine with none of the capital outlay.

Any links to that discussion with Khafee? Would be interesting to have a read sir.

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## Taygibay

Abingdonboy said:


> Any links to that discussion with Khafee? Would be interesting to have a read sir.



That was by e-mail, sorry man, Tay.

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## Avon

*CCI clears Reliance-Dassault joint venture*
NEW DELHI: Competition Commission today approved the proposed joint venture between Anil Ambani-led group firm Reliance Aerostructure and Rafale-maker Dassault Aviation, one of the major deals in India's private defence industry.

The proposed combination relates to the setting up of a joint venture between Reliance Aero and Dassault -- Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited, in which Reliance Aero would hold 51 per cent shares, with the remaining 49 per cent to be held by Dassault.

Fair trade regulator CCI said in a tweet that it has approved setting up of this JV. Deals beyond a certain threshold require approval from CCI, which keeps a tab on unfair business practices across sectors.

The JV, which was announced by the two companies in October last year, aims to be a "key player" in execution of offset contract worth about Rs 22,000 crore as part of the multi-billion euro Rafale fighter jet deal between India and France.
Source: economict

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## Taygibay

Remember how helping with the Kaveri was supposed
to be part of the offsets for the deal and some doubted?

Here :
  http://safran.profils.org/offre-de-emploi/emploi-directeur-directrice-programme-kaveri-moteurs-militaires-h-f_50805.aspx​Safran / Job Offer / Head of Program for Kaveri military engines.

The nay-sayers can swallow their impressions.
French / francais comes from Frankish / frank.
When we say we will, we do!

Good day all, Tay.

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## Taygibay

I checked your info and it did so thanks a million
for spotting that @mirage; thanks for all of us!

I corrected it of course and we can now reach the
job description / offer safely 
but just to help further here's a partial copy :

*Référence*
2016-50805 
*DESCRIPTION DU POSTE
Filière principale / Métier principal*
Programme & Relations clients - Programme

*Intitulé du poste*
Directeur/Directrice Programme KAVERI - Moteurs Militaires H/F

*Type contrat*
CDI

*Statut*
Ingénieur & Cadre

*Temps de travail*
Temps complet

*Description de la mission*
Au sein du pôle directions de programmes, en relation avec les correspondants désignés des autres entités de Safran Aircraft Engines, et en particulier, la direction technique, la direction de la qualité, la direction industrielle et la direction commerciale, le directeur de programme Kaveri aura les missions suivantes :

- Animer l'équipe programme Kaveri,
- Etablir le calendrier projet et identifier, dans le respect de la méthodologie PROMPT, les jalons clés du programme, en cohérence avec les enjeux et jalons du contrat Rafale Inde et du contrat d'offsets associé,
- Assurer le pilotage et la coordination de toutes les activités réalisées sur le programme, en cohérence notamment avec le programme M88,
- Assurer la rentabilité du moteur et de son futur système de soutien, identifier les axes d'amélioration de la performance économique,
- Assurer la cohérence des actions concernant les développements / améliorations / évolutions du produit (via les réunions Equipe De Programme),
- Piloter les actions de l'Entreprise et du Groupe concernant ce programme en assurant la cohérence d'ensemble en coût, qualité et délais,
- Veiller à la satisfaction Client à la tenue des engagements,
etc.

​Thanks again mirage mate for that spot and please delete
that from your post as well by cutting the link in the quote
so no one else suffers on PDF.
I'll check for cause and good day all, Tay.

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## BON PLAN

mirage said:


> taygibay ji ,your link opens a p0rn site , i dont know how.


You are pulling our legs !

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## GuardianRED

BON PLAN said:


> You are pulling our legs !


lol... No, he was right it did

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## Hephaestus

*IAF won't share details on Rafale deal
*
Public revelation of the information on the deal may lead to its subsequent availability to our adversaries, the IAF said in reply to an RTI query.
Details of the agreement signed between Indian and French authorities regarding supply of 36 Rafale aircraft cannot be disclosed as they are confidential in nature, the Air Force has said.

An Inter-Governmental Agreement was signed between the governments of India and France on September 23, 2016 for supply of the Rafale aircraft, initial consignment of weapons, longterm maintenance support through performance-based logistics, simulators with annual maintenance and associated equipment.

Replying to an RTI query, the Air Force said the details are held by it in fiduciary capacity.

The information sought is confidential in nature and public revelation of the same may lead to its subsequent availability to our adversaries, it said.


“Further, the information sought is also held in fiduciary capacity and no larger public interest is served by disclosure of such information. Hence, the same is denied,” the Air Force said in reply to the application filed by PTI.

The Defence Ministry was asked to provide copies of the agreement and price of the Rafale deal. The query was then forwarded to the Air Force for providing the reply.

The delivery of 36 Rafale aircraft, weapons and associated equipment to India will commence from September 2019. The deliveries are spread over two and half years, with the last aircraft delivery scheduled in April 2022.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...re-details-of-Rafale-deal/article17197242.ece

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## Hindustani78

*The delivery of 36 Rafale aircraft, weapons and associated equipment to India will commence from September 2019.(AP File Photo)*

Updated: Feb 05, 2017 10:59 IST
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...rafale-deal/story-Fdw0vSK5KnAs6CjwesIXiI.html

Details of the agreement signed between Indian and French authorities regarding supply of 36 Rafale aircraft cannot be disclosed as they are confidential in nature, the Air Force has said.

An Inter-Governmental Agreement was signed between the governments of India and France on September 23, 2016 for supply of the Rafale aircraft, initial consignment of weapons, long-term maintenance support through performance-based logistics, simulators with annual maintenance and associated equipment.

Replying to an RTI query, the Air Force said the details are held by it in fiduciary capacity.

The information sought is confidential in nature and public revelation of the same may lead to its subsequent availability to our adversaries, it said.

“Further, the information sought is also held in fiduciary capacity and no larger public interest is served by disclosure of such information. Hence, the same is denied,” the Air Force said in reply to the application filed by PTI.

The Defence Ministry was asked to provide copies of the agreement and price of the Rafale deal. The query was then forwarded to the Air Force for providing the reply.

The delivery of 36 Rafale aircraft, weapons and associated equipment to India will commence from September 2019. The deliveries are spread over two and half years, with the last aircraft delivery scheduled in April 2022.


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## Taygibay

September 2019, that's a long time away!

I thought to myself, if I was an Indian, I'd be starved for
anything about my new plane.

Then I thought to myself, I'm French; I can help with fighting
that particular starvation. So I went to get you a pair of pics
with a top & bottom view of a Rafale, well of 2 Rafales as the
loads are different, from week of Jan 25 to Feb 1 in Chammal.







Click us!
Really, click us you should, young Jedi!
​I put them in thumbnail because they're really big.
Right-click them in a new window and click again.
Check out all the goodies and choose your favorite!

All rights are from the MinDef Fr. So it fits a GtoG deal? 

Great day all, Tay.

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## Abingdonboy

Hindustani78 said:


> *The delivery of 36 Rafale aircraft, weapons and associated equipment to India will commence from September 2019.(AP File Photo)*
> 
> Updated: Feb 05, 2017 10:59 IST
> http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...rafale-deal/story-Fdw0vSK5KnAs6CjwesIXiI.html
> 
> Details of the agreement signed between Indian and French authorities regarding supply of 36 Rafale aircraft cannot be disclosed as they are confidential in nature, the Air Force has said.
> 
> An Inter-Governmental Agreement was signed between the governments of India and France on September 23, 2016 for supply of the Rafale aircraft, initial consignment of weapons, long-term maintenance support through performance-based logistics, simulators with annual maintenance and associated equipment.
> 
> Replying to an RTI query, the Air Force said the details are held by it in fiduciary capacity.
> 
> The information sought is confidential in nature and public revelation of the same may lead to its subsequent availability to our adversaries, it said.
> 
> “Further, the information sought is also held in fiduciary capacity and no larger public interest is served by disclosure of such information. Hence, the same is denied,” the Air Force said in reply to the application filed by PTI.
> 
> The Defence Ministry was asked to provide copies of the agreement and price of the Rafale deal. The query was then forwarded to the Air Force for providing the reply.
> 
> The delivery of 36 Rafale aircraft, weapons and associated equipment to India will commence from September 2019. The deliveries are spread over two and half years, with the last aircraft delivery scheduled in April 2022.


Deliveries will commence in the first quarter of 2019, this is typical lazy journalism of the Indian media- Sept 2016 + 36 months= Sept 2019 but it is already speculated from the French side that Dassualt are targetting <30 months.

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## Taygibay

So AeroIndia 2017 just ended and from that thread, I took out
this pic found by Abingdon :


Abingdonboy said:


>



Can anyone tell me what easily spottable difference is found here
if you compare with an image of the Rafale when it won MMRCA?

Hint : It was first showed at the first TEI in December 2015.

French members are asked not to take part in that quiz, OFC.

Read you soon, Tay.


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## GuardianRED

Taygibay said:


> So AeroIndia 2017 just ended and from that thread, I took out
> this pic found by Abingdon :
> 
> 
> Can anyone tell me what easily spottable difference is found here
> if you compare with an image of The Rafale when it won MMRCA?
> 
> Hint : It was first showed at the first TEI in December 2015.
> 
> French members are asked not to take part in that quiz, OFC.
> 
> Read you soon, Tay.


Would take a guess and say the absence of the pilot tube on the nose, Thus indicating that this frame is fitted with the AESA Radar (either an upgrade of existing frame or an all new frame)

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## Taygibay

Nope, that's an old change already, from 2013!
What we're looking for is a year old and not even
present on all Rafales made since.

Almost mate but keep looking, Tay.

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## The Eagle

Taygibay said:


> So AeroIndia 2017 just ended and from that thread, I took out
> this pic found by Abingdon :
> 
> 
> Can anyone tell me what easily spottable difference is found here
> if you compare with an image of The Rafale when it won MMRCA?
> 
> Hint : It was first showed at the first TEI in December 2015.
> 
> French members are asked not to take part in that quiz, OFC.
> 
> Read you soon, Tay.



Sir, couple of sensors/gadgets on intakes? Would you like to tell a bit about the same. 

Regards,

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## Taygibay

The Eagle said:


> couple of sensors/gadgets on intakes? Would you like to tell a bit about the same.



AH! They're certainly not gadgets but OK, what did you
find different about them, my good mate?

 Tay.


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## The Eagle

Taygibay said:


> AH! They're certainly not gadgets but OK, what did you
> find different about them, my good mate?
> 
> Tay.




If I am not wrong Sir, spectra sensors were previously shown on Top front, top left/right close to canard area but not on Intakes. Or pardon me if I am missing the point here. 

Regards,

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## Taygibay

Ah, shucks! Close but no cigar!

There were always Spectra elements in the air intakes
as well as on the canard sporting bulge!

The one by the canard is an GaN emitter and the one
on the intakes a RadarWarningReceiver.

Keep at it though, you're close, Tay.

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## GuardianRED

Taygibay said:


> Ah, shucks! Close but no cigar!
> 
> There were always Spectra elements in the air intakes
> as well as on the canard sporting bulge!
> 
> The one by the canard is an GaN emitter and the one
> on the intakes a RadarWarningReceiver.
> 
> Keep at it though, you're close, Tay.



LOL.... getting the same Info that the 

*Rafale F3Rs* features software enhancements to make full use of the RBE2-AA radar, Meteor long range air-to-air missile integration, SBU-64 dual mode laser/GPS AASM smart bomb integration, *improvements to Thales SPECTRA self-defence system, an Identification Friend or Foe interrogator/transponder with full Mode-5/ Mode-S-compatibility*

But Nothing Visually that can we can see 


*
*

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## Louiq XIV

GuardianRED said:


> But Nothing Visually that can we can see



By the rules of the quiz I'm not allowed to give the answer (I think I know what Tay has in mind) and yes you can see it.

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## Taygibay

LouiQ answered already Guardian mate!
Grab your answer and review the image.
It could help to compare what you gave
us and check on an older picture ...


 Tay.

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## surya kiran

Taygibay said:


> LouiQ answered already Guardian mate!
> Grab your answer and review the image.
> It could help to compare what you gave
> us and check on an older picture ...
> 
> 
> Tay.



The older spectra were green. I remember picad mentioning this somewhere.

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## GuardianRED

_*"The older spectra were green. I remember picad mentioning this somewhere."*_
@Taygibay Is that it ?

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## Taygibay

And one "esteem trophy" to @surya kiran !
The hardware is imaginary but the success real.

Yes, these appeared around autumn 2015
but did not get onto every Rafale since.

Re-reading Guardian's post #6239, what do you
think it involves then?

Waiting  Tay.

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## GuardianRED

Taygibay said:


> And one "esteem trophy" to @surya kiran !
> The hardware is imaginary but the success real.
> 
> Yes, these appeared around November 2015
> but did not get onto every Rafale since.
> 
> Re-reading Guardian's post #6239, what do you
> think it involves then?
> 
> Waiting  Tay.


LOL.... I did notice the change in colour, just didn't expect it to be that simple answer

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## Taygibay

Oh, sorry! LOL
So, with that, you are on par with French spotters
and the point is :why the change?

Go mate, go, Tay.

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## surya kiran

Taygibay said:


> Oh, sorry! LOL
> So, with that, you are on par with French spotters
> and the point is :why the change?
> 
> Go mate, go, Tay.



GaN. Most probably this is B02.


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## BON PLAN

Taygibay said:


> So AeroIndia 2017 just ended and from that thread, I took out
> this pic found by Abingdon :
> 
> 
> Can anyone tell me what easily spottable difference is found here
> if you compare with an image of the Rafale when it won MMRCA?
> 
> Hint : It was first showed at the first TEI in December 2015.
> 
> French members are asked not to take part in that quiz, OFC.
> 
> Read you soon, Tay.


Even for a french.... it's not easy !!!

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## Taygibay

OK, here we are; thanks again Surya mate!

A- There was no official word ( TMK ) about the switch.

B- It could be only cosmetic ( new material same capacities ).

So why would Surya, likely LouiQ, other Fr. spotters & myself
think it relates to a switch to GaN in the canard emitters.

We have to merge 2 timelines.
First, the INCAS PEA ( Advanced Studies Planning ) had begun
working on the switch to GaN in 2009, 4 full years before AESA.
This had surfaced in 2012 with confirmation of work in progress.

Then in September 2015, one of the 2 Rafales at the Bold Quest
2015.2 exercise in Holloman, NM. was spotted with these black
RWR. The next time they appeared was at TEI at Langley, Virginia
in December of the same year.

In between the two, UMS came out with its GaN transmitter June 2013.

And since, Rafales with this peculiarity seem to have been restricted
to sales support and appearing at AeroIndia follows that trend.

The next step in our game would be open to all and consist of posting
pics of Rafales in operation ( Chammal ) sporting the black RWR.

So round 2 ...

The game is afoot, Tay.

P.S. BonPlan mec, it was discussed in one E-Fr place where you hang out!

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## Hindustani78

Written by Sushant Singh | New Delhi | Updated: February 27, 2017 8:38 am

*Sources said the IAF needed an additional 540 acres of land in the vicinity of the air force station, which would have meant protracted negotiations with nearly 3,200 land owners. *
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...her-bases-to-station-rafale-fighters-4545492/

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is set to shelve plans to base the under-procurement 36 Rafale fighters at Sarsawa, near Saharanpur in Uttar Pradesh, because of problems of land acquisition near the airbase. The IAF has begun scouting for alternative airbases to house the two squadrons of its most modern fighter aircraft. “Yes, there is a problem with land acquisition at Sarsawa. We need some additional space which we are unable to get there. Other airbases are being considered by us,” a top military officer confirmed to The Indian Express.

*Sources said the IAF needed an additional 540 acres of land in the vicinity of the air force station, which would have meant protracted negotiations with nearly 3,200 land owners. *There is *no possibility of using the land on the other side which is being used by the Special Frontier Force, a special force raised after the 1962 Sino-Indian war, for its own airborne training programme.*

The process of negotiations with the landowners, sources said, will take time while the construction of infrastructure facilities has to start at the earliest since the first Rafale fighter is supposed to be in service in the IAF in September 2019. The full complement of 36 Rafale fighters will be in service by April 2022. The IAF currently has only 33 fighter squadron against an authorisation of 42, and two squadrons of Rafale are critical to managing the shortfall.

Asked about the alternative sites for the Rafale base, the officer said: *“No country places its top strategic assets close to the border. We are also looking at suitable options.” Sources said Suratgarh, Bihta and Ambala are currently being considered as alternative airbases for the French fighters.* A frontline airbase in Rajasthan, Suratgarh is close to the Pakistan border, while Bihta airbase is near Patna in Bihar. Ambala in Haryana is a fighter base with adequate availability of land, which currently houses Jaguars and MiGs.

Under the Rs 59,000-crore deal signed by India with France last September, Dassault Aviation is contracted to construct infrastructure at the airbase for the 36 fighters. This makes it incumbent upon the IAF to finalise the airbase at the earliest. These French fighters are also likely to be used by the IAF as strategic delivery platforms for aerial delivery of nuclear weapons. That role is currently performed by French Mirage-2000 fighters, which will move out of service in another decade.


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## Taygibay

Ambala it is then!

This is a check sign for Indian democracy which should please
those who clamour for it often. And it's one advantage of more
authoritarian or state-defined regimes that they can bypass this
type of problem. China, Russia place bases where they're needed,
period. And large landmass helps as free space for bases abound.

In a perfect democracy with referendums for every new decision
to be made, the base could be erected in the center of a metropolis
if the planes are pretty or rejected altogether if the fighters are ugly.

Uf Widerluege, Tay.

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## kmc_chacko

Taygibay said:


> Ambala it is then!
> 
> This is a check sign for Indian democracy which should please
> those who clamour for it often. And it's one advantage of more
> authoritarian or state-defined regimes that they can bypass this
> type of problem. China, Russia place bases where they're needed,
> period. And large landmass helps as free space for bases abound.
> 
> In a perfect democracy with referendums for every new decision
> to be made, the base could be erected in the center of a metropolis
> if the planes are pretty or rejected altogether if the fighters are ugly.
> 
> Uf Widerluege, Tay.



Ambala will have that chance only if IAF induct more than 6 Sq of Rafale


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## Taygibay

kmc_chacko said:


> Ambala will have that chance only if IAF induct more than 6 Sq of Rafale



LOL, so choosing it would be good news then? 
But please give me/us your reasons to think so? It
can't strictly be related to the size of the present base?

The only bug I see about Ambala is that considering his
ego, the new second-in-command of the plant making
the Indian Rafales could want it renamed Amba_ni-_la. 

Read you soon, Tay.


----------



## kmc_chacko

Taygibay said:


> LOL, so choosing it would be good news then?
> But please give me/us your reasons to think so? It
> can't strictly be related to the size of the present base?



I believe a sq of new fighters will eventually replace Mig-21s stationed over there




Taygibay said:


> The only bug I see about Ambala is that considering his
> ego, the new second-in-command of the plant making
> the Indian Rafales could want it renamed Amba_ni-_la.


----------



## Taygibay

kmc_chacko said:


> I believe a sq of new fighters will eventually replace Mig-21s stationed over there



So? 2 ( INITIAL ) squadrons of Rafale and one of LCAs
maintaining the actual three sqdn format on base
as the Jags are redeployed to support declining qty.
in other bases after Darin III retrofit would fit.

The Jags will be split in half by that work and you
know as well as I do that it's not the 60 Darin II
that will last until 2040. Call it rationalization?

Great day to you, Tay.


----------



## kmc_chacko

Taygibay said:


> So? 2 ( INITIAL ) squadrons of Rafale and one of LCAs
> maintaining the actual three sqdn format on base
> as the Jags are redeployed to support declining qty.
> in other bases after Darin III retrofit would fit.
> 
> The Jags will be split in half by that work and you
> know as well as I do that it's not the 60 Darin II
> that will last until 2040. Call it rationalization?
> 
> Great day to you, Tay.



I didn't say that Jags will be moved I just said, only if more than 6 sq of Rafale ordered then they might station 1 sq in Ambala. Its known fact that Mig-21s will be eventually replaced by Tejas or Gripen/F-16s


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## Taygibay

No, no you didn't; I did! But what if you put both Raf sq and one of your type?
I'd rather it be LCA BTW because that SI-MII is not my favourite bedtime story,
at the moment at least.

Thinking of the logistical nightmare that moving in 1 sqdn of Raffys plus 1 of SI-
MII/Tejas ( or 1 each ) while keeping a sqdn of old Jags makes no sense, you're right!

Read you later, Tay.


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## Taygibay

I'm waiting for my ToT controversy, guys!

Hint,  , Tay.


----------



## monitor

Interesting! MoD gives Parliament details of bargaining that went into India-France negotiations for 36 Rafale deal after M-MRCA collapse.

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## HRK

monitor said:


> Interesting! MoD gives Parliament details of bargaining that went into India-France negotiations for 36 Rafale deal after M-MRCA collapse.



would you plz post the link I want to read further ...


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## Taygibay

Meanwhile, I winked and am still waiting for my controversy?

Just sayin', Tay.


----------



## Abingdonboy

_Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa said Rafale fighter aircraft would be inducted into the IAF by 2019. 

A total of 36 fighters would be added to the fleet in the *first batch*, he said._


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ef-marshal-bs-dhanoa/articleshow/57450893.cms

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## Taygibay

LOL at glass three fourths full Abingdonmate ^^^

BTW, could you ask a buddy to poke me in THE eye?

So I can get my flogging controversy and chance to
explain why perfect ToT never happens?

Thanx, Tay.

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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> BTW, could you ask a buddy to poke me in THE eye?
> 
> So I can get my flogging controversy and chance to
> explain why perfect ToT never happens?
> 
> Thanx, Tay.


You're dying to explain, please do mate!


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## Taygibay

Hints : Wink ... poke in eye ... link ...
Post 6258 ...

Where we learn not all things are for sale.

Etc.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> Hints : Wink ... poke in eye ... link ...
> Post 6258 ...
> 
> Where we learn not all things are for sale.
> 
> Etc.


It will be a storm in a tea cup when certain media interests "latch on" to this "news" but it won't make any difference to the progress of the deal(s) at all. India has moved beyond that and all sides know what they want, what they can/will get and what their obligations are. If all play by the set rules, there will be no issues.

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## Taygibay

Still, it will be useful once the 2 remaining weeks
in the offset negos are past to use this example
coupled with this post to finally show what ToT
is really about.

Can't wait, grrrrr, Tay.


P.S.

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## Taygibay

Taygibay said:


> And since, Rafales with this peculiarity seem to have been restricted
> to sales support and appearing at AeroIndia follows that trend.
> 
> The next step in our game would be open to all and consist of posting
> pics of Rafales in operation ( Chammal ) sporting the black RWR.
> 
> So round 2 ...
> 
> The game is afoot, Tay.



I may just have won my own contest :





http://www.defense.gouv.fr/var/dico...11/8459079-1-fre-FR/2017_ajod_050_001_011.jpg​That would be Rafale C 120 in a list begun by C 101.
It was delivered 19th of all Cs*** and used to fly for the
1/7 Squadron Provence as 113-LY :


Click me!​This is normal as Rafales are maintained by pool by type
so that any factory number may end in use at any given
time by any squadron. We can however see that this "old"
Rafale used to have green SPECTRA intake elements that
it since traded for black ones.

Ah, Back In Black, Men In Black and now Sensors In Black!
Will we ever know the truth?

 Tay.
​*** Save C01, the original who did wear black to great effect
but in exchange didn't wear those Spectra antennas at all :
​

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## BON PLAN

Taygibay said:


> I may just have won my own contest :
> 
> View attachment 384589
> 
> http://www.defense.gouv.fr/var/dico...11/8459079-1-fre-FR/2017_ajod_050_001_011.jpg​That would be Rafale C 120 in a list begun by C 101.
> It was delivered 19th of all Cs*** and used to fly for the
> 1/7 Squadron Provence as 113-LY :
> View attachment 384591
> 
> Click me!​This is normal as Rafales are maintained by pool by type
> so that any factory number may end in use at any given
> time by any squadron. We can however see that this "old"
> Rafale used to have green SPECTRA intake elements that
> it since traded for black ones.
> 
> Ah, Back In Black, Men In Black and now Sensors In Black!
> Will we ever know the truth?
> 
> Tay.
> ​*** Save C01, the original who did wear black to great effect
> but in exchange didn't wear those Spectra antennas at all :
> View attachment 384609​


I see all the Spectra antennas on the C01 ! in black (on black)


----------



## Taygibay

My poor Bon Plan, the C01 din't have those
antennas. The shape you see was a mock-up!

Check images from the prototypes, you'll see!
It is admittedly harder to spot black on black.


Have a great day, Tay.


----------



## BON PLAN

Taygibay said:


> My poor Bon Plan, the C01 din't have those
> antennas. The shape you see was a mock-up!
> 
> Check images from the prototypes, you'll see!
> It is admittedly harder to spot black on black.
> 
> 
> Have a great day, Tay.


Maybe there is nothing behind the shape, 
but the shape are there so as to make aerodynamical tests in the perfect conditions of the full plane.
It say nothing more.

See you soon !

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## Taygibay

surya kiran said:


> So when they say Spectra, is the emitter library not central to how it works? Or will the threat library have to be built from scratch by the IAF?



Probably not from scratch but yes, the library will have to be built anew by IAF.

The reasons for this are numerous and you won't like
all of them as a client but the way things are done is
there to fit them best.

First, the library may contain friendly profiles. You know that there is an exercise
called Atlantic Trident bring concluded at JBLE with our closest friends during which
it is certain that we got all the EM library info on Raptors, Typhoons and Lighting IIs.
We just can't share those so let's make it a rule ... which would protect you about
dissemination of similar data say extracted by the OEM during a refit. Not for sale.

Second, the library may contain profiles you have no need for. Remember that plane
downed by a Rafale in Lybia? Do you even want its profile? How many Soko Galeb 
G-2s are poised within strike range of India's borders? So rule2 : no sharing of ...
let's call it extraneous data which may anyway incidentally fall within the other rules. 

Third, the library may contain potential enemy profiles including those of a third party
to the deal that is not in conflict with the seller or buyer or both at time of sale. The
simple example here is Pakistan : France has a normal relationship with Islamabad
even though you guys don't quite. Why would we sell their profiles and sour things up
when you guys will have every opportunity to get those "for free" with practice runs?***
Rule 3 : share only common enemies' sigs.
*** Which ties in with the most important strategic reason : quality of the libraries.

Fourth, the libraries may not include what you need most anyhow. Do we have a good read
on the J-10? I'm not sure! Will you guys be able to get one with your Raffys? Pretty certain!

Finally, all data libraries are not of equal value. The work that goes behind acquiring them
can vary in professionalism or expertise and so on. Let's examine the extreme cases of it.
Scenario 1: France is the best at cataloging EM signatures, better at all levels : acquisition,
signal treatment, analysis, you name it, the resulting data is twice as good as next player's.
Do we want to share that? And supposing we do, will we find a buyer? If India thinks it can
build a better library by itself or one just as good why would it pay the premium price that
we're certain to ask for it as world's best product? It's a face value deal too as in order to
convince the buyer of the work's worth, you'd have to disclose it along with its processes.
Scenario 2: France is so so at using its own SPECTRA tool and India will get much more
out of building the libraries itself than paying for shitty signatures with A-380s locked on
more often than J-20s. And this is where rules fly off as logic lands.

The work of building signature libraries is part of knowing how to use them. With the
excessive number of types in the iAF, the whole chain from pilots to data analysts can
be trained and honed with face-offs. The data itself is tactic until treatment makes it
strategic. Both are enabled by doing the work yourself.

But in passing, let me add this strange fact that if the strategic partnership between us
is serious, we may forget signatures of your own aircrafts as the MKI possibly diluted . . .
as you'd then have a benchmark of what can be had to refine your acquisition process.

There you go mate, have a great day, Tay.

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## BON PLAN



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## BON PLAN

*A new Rafale order soon ?*

http://www.indiastrategic.in/2017/08/21/iaf-to-get-another-36-rafale-combat-aircraft/

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## A.P. Richelieu

*ADDING 36 MORE RAFALES WILL PROVE TO BE MUCH CHEAPER THAN FGFA*

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/08/adding-36-more-rafales-will-prove-to-be.html

The Rafales would be in place of FGFA.
Nothing decided Yet though.

The cost of 36 more Rafales would be at 60% of the first batch since they will become
the second squadron at two airbases.

$7,87B * 0,6 / 36 = $131M per aircraft.

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## BON PLAN

A.P. Richelieu said:


> *ADDING 36 MORE RAFALES WILL PROVE TO BE MUCH CHEAPER THAN FGFA*
> 
> http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/08/adding-36-more-rafales-will-prove-to-be.html
> 
> The Rafales would be in place of FGFA.
> Nothing decided Yet though.
> 
> The cost of 36 more Rafales would be at 60% of the first batch since they will become
> the second squadron at two airbases.
> 
> $7,87B * 0,6 / 36 = $131M per aircraft.


The 7,87 $billions includes 10 years support and weapons.
So the 131$million is not the dry price of the plane, but with spares and some weapon.

The 40% "discount" is the bases accomodation and indigenization, paid once with the first order.

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## A.P. Richelieu



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## hassamun

*IAF pitches for 36 more Rafale fighters after it gets the first 36 from France*

The IAF is now strongly pitching for acquiring another 36 Rafale fighters after it gets the first 36 jets under the mega Rs 59,000 crore contract (7.87 billion euro) inked with France last September, stressing that the "follow-on" deal will cost just over 60% of the original acquisition and induction price.

Defence ministry sources say the IAF has made "some presentations" on the operational need to procure 36 additional Rafales as part of its long-term plans, with the force contending the French fighters will prove to be much cheaper than the proposed fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) to be developed with Russia.

"But no final decision as yet has been taken on either the 36 more Rafales or the FGFA project," said a MoD source. Citing IAF's "critical operational necessity", the Modi government had last year inked the deal for the 36 Rafales, with their weapon packages, associated supplies and logistics, after scrapping the long-pending and deadlocked $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project for 126 fighters.

As earlier reported by TOI, the first Rafale squadron (18 jets) will be based at Hasimara (West Bengal) to cater for the eastern front with China, while the second will come up at Ambala (Haryana) for the western one with Pakistan. The 36 omni-role jets, which can also deliver nuclear weapons, are slated for delivery from November 2019 to mid-2022.

IAF has told MoD that the infrastructure coming up at Hasimara and Ambala airbases can accommodate two Rafale squadrons each. "This will cut down the induction costs of the 36 additional fighters," said the source.







Grappling with just 33-34 fighter squadrons when at least 42-44 are needed to tackle the "collusive threat" from China and Pakistan, IAF says the Rafales will be "a huge deterrent" with their deadly Meteor air-to-air missiles (150-km range), Scalp air-to-ground cruise missiles (300-km) and other weapons.

Underlining "the primacy of airpower" in modern-day warfare, IAF has told MoD the Meteor beyond visual range missile is far superior to any air-to-air missile with Chinese or Pakistani fighters.

The original Rafale deal, incidentally, had come in for sharp criticism from certain quarters due to the huge costs involved. A single fighter in itself costs around Rs 700 crore. But the per fighter cost zooms up to Rs 1,640 crore if the overall deal is taken into account, which includes a potent weapons package, all spares and costs for 75% fleet availability and "performance-based logistics support" for five years.
While IAF is also backing the long-delayed indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft, the single-engine fighter with a limited 400-km range and 2.5-tonne weapon load can be used primarily for "air defence" to take on incoming enemy jets.

The twin-engine Rafale, in turn, has a much longer combat range from 780-km to 1,650-km depending on the mission, and can carry a 9.3-tonne weapon load. With 14 India-specific requirements, including the capability for "cold start" from high-altitude regions, the Rafale can simultaneously perform both air defence and ground attack missions.
The Rafale also has a faster turnaround time, capable of undertaking five sorties in a day. The existing fighters in the IAF combat fleet, in contrast, can do only three sorties at the most.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...first-36-from-france/articleshow/60226329.cms


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## Taygibay

Two remarks :

That ocean loops video with the jet plume
carving the water ( at 57 s. ) by A.P. Richelieu;
it's something navy pilots love doing, a craft,
a specialty. Of course it can be done with just
about any fighter jet but in reality, check out
the French flotilles or the Blue Angels on their
F-18s and you'll see that move quite often.
Kind of a rite / right thing : they can so they do!
  _ By comparison, the PAF does it rarely _


As for that possible second contract of Rafales
by India, the interesting thing if it materializes
will be to find out how the ToT is implemented.
We know part of the high price for India stems
from the 50% offsets clause and that makers
compute this in their offers but that the higher
price tag is thus an investment in India itself
as it comes back in.

If the accompanying offsets are less for long
ToT and switch to more factories, we'll be able
to confirm that the GoI is setting up the people
slowly with gradual buys : -then the IN -then a
true MMI big buy which PariK and Abingdon so
often proposed in the past.

No rush, still good days to be had, Tay.

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## BON PLAN

Selex boss told to Valerio Bonelli (their Dircom, former Eurofighter) : *"you do not see the point, Valerio. Put a naked woman close to a Eurofighter, everyone will look at the lady. Put it near a Rafale, everyone will stare at the plane"*

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## Dark Lord Forever

BON PLAN said:


> Selex boss told to Valerio Bonelli (their Dircom, former Eurofighter) : *"you do not see the point, Valerio. Put a naked woman close to a Eurofighter, everyone will look at the lady. Put it near a Rafale, everyone will stare at the plane"*


i will gladly take that naked women over rafale.

fighter are not for looking good but fighter jet only for one thing killing enemy.


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## Hell hound

BON PLAN said:


> Selex boss told to Valerio Bonelli (their Dircom, former Eurofighter) : *"you do not see the point, Valerio. Put a naked woman close to a Eurofighter, everyone will look at the lady. Put it near a Rafale, everyone will stare at the plane"*


@The Sandman

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## The Sandman

Hell hound said:


> @The Sandman


 all lies i am telling you

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## X_Killer

This is a wrong perception spread all around that 36 rafales costs 8.87 bn USD but the reality is far different.
check it out

*BREAK-DOWN OF RAFALE DEAL



The per unit cost of the 36 Dassault Rafale deal that India signed with France on 23 September in New Delhi for EUR7.9 billion (USD8.9 billion) was around EUR141.66 million each, official sources said.

This included 28 single-seat and eight dual-seat Rafales for EUR3.3 billion - each priced at EUR91.1 million and EUR94 million, respectively - with an additional EUR1.8 billion for 14 Indian Air Force (IAF)- specific customisations.

The deal included the integration of a mix of locally developed and commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) weaponry and systems on the fighters, such as Israeli helmet-mounted display sights, assorted missiles, data-links, electronic warfare (EW), and identification friend-or-foe (IFF) systems.

Click to expand...


FURTHER BREAK-DOWN




*
@A.P. Richelieu @hassamun



Dark Lord Forever said:


> i will gladly take that naked women over rafale


you can only do such things with false flag. Hope you afraid or shy to show real flag on your profile.

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## Dark Lord Forever

X_Killer said:


> This is a wrong perception spread all around that 36 rafales costs 8.87 bn USD but the reality is far different.
> check it out


france paid good mony to indian politicians and ripped off india. now no need to cry about it. we know what happen. they sold indian mixed pickle airforce some 4 generation junk at cost of brand new f35.  and now this 50 cent french troll is trying to sell indian mixed pickle airforce even more junk at f35 price. @BON PLAN 

pethetic country full of pethetic idiots.


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## #hydra#

BON PLAN said:


> Selex boss told to Valerio Bonelli (their Dircom, former Eurofighter) : *"you do not see the point, Valerio. Put a naked woman close to a Eurofighter, everyone will look at the lady. Put it near a Rafale, everyone will stare at the plane"*


Wrong,still i will look at baked woman.


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## X_Killer

Dark Lord Forever said:


> france paid good mony to indian politicians and ripped off india. now no need to cry about it. we know what happen. they sold indian mixed pickle airforce some 4 generation junk at cost of brand new f35.  and now this 50 cent french troll is trying to sell indian mixed pickle airforce even more junk at f35 price. @BON PLAN
> 
> pethetic country full of pethetic idiots.


Again I want to point out you as a *FALSE FLAGGER
*
And as far as capability is considered, IAF know what they want and what they are ordering.
F-35 is nothing more than a reel fighter where as rafale is real fighter.
Rafale have far less frontal RCS than F-35 with the DEDIRA suite.
You guys feel the heat. 



Dark Lord Forever said:


> *pickle air force*


You should know, I always read it in short form as *PAF*

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## BON PLAN

Dark Lord Forever said:


> i will gladly take that naked women over rafale.
> 
> fighter are not for looking good but fighter jet only for one thing killing enemy.


Marcel Dassault said "a beautifull plane is a plane that fly well".



Dark Lord Forever said:


> france paid good mony to indian politicians and ripped off india. now no need to cry about it. we know what happen. they sold indian mixed pickle airforce some 4 generation junk at cost of brand new f35.  and now this 50 cent french troll is trying to sell indian mixed pickle airforce even more junk at f35 price. @BON PLAN
> 
> pethetic country full of pethetic idiots.


The idiot is yourself. 
Idiot unable to understand that "5th gen" is only marketing, developped for F22, and recycled for F35. Unfortunately the more costier program of all time fall at least on 2 supposed attributes of LM :
F35 is not agile (smashed by a dual seater F16 with extaernal tanks !) and F35 can't super cruise.

At those time Rafale is combat roven, and despite all your shouts, India which is a country in a state of war against 2 opponents (not the case of Switzerland of Brazil ...) will take a second batch and probably a third. Mark my words.

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## Dark Lord Forever

BON PLAN said:


> Marcel Dasaault said "a beautifull plane is a plane that fly well".


what kind of logic is this???

does france design planes based on looks?  not aerodynamics?



BON PLAN said:


> The idiot is yourself.
> Idiot unable to understand that "5th gen" is only marketing, developped for F22, and recycled for F35. Unfortunately the more costier program of all time fall at least on 2 supposed attributes of LM :
> F35 is not agile (smashed by a dual seater F16 with extaernal tanks !) and F35 can't super cruise.



5th gen is stealth. is Rafale stelthy? big no. 

can rafale super cruise? big no. 

does rafale has low ir signature? big no?

does rafale have f35 like helmet? big no?

vertical takeoff and landing? big big no?

so my simple question is why are you charging so much money? 

your product is old and useless in 2017. why any inteligent airforce buy rafale over f35? 



BON PLAN said:


> At those time Rafale is combat roven,


which war are you taking? french didn't fight any war since ww2. and that too you surrenderd.



BON PLAN said:


> and despite all your shouts, India which is a country in a state of war against 2 opponents (not the case of Switzerland of Brazil ...) will take a second batch and probably a third. Mark my words.


second batch? you mean more 36 rafale? meaning another $8 billion and third batch meaning another $8 billion? so total $24 billion for 108 rafale??? this is ripoff price.


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## BON PLAN

Dark Lord Forever said:


> what kind of logic is this???
> 
> does france design planes based on looks?  not aerodynamics?
> 
> 
> 
> 5th gen is stealth. is Rafale stelthy? big no.
> 
> can rafale super cruise? big no.
> 
> does rafale has low ir signature? big no?
> 
> does rafale have f35 like helmet? big no?
> 
> vertical takeoff and landing? big big no?
> 
> so my simple question is why are you charging so much money?
> 
> your product is old and useless in 2017. why any inteligent airforce buy rafale over f35?
> 
> 
> which war are you taking? french didn't fight any war since ww2. and that too you surrenderd.
> 
> 
> second batch? you mean more 36 rafale? meaning another $8 billion and third batch meaning another $8 billion? so total $24 billion for 108 rafale??? this is ripoff price.


Marcel Dassault was a genius. Before all the computing methods, he was able to produce some top world class fighter and private jets with a 10000 workers compagny.

*********

- Rafale Stealthy? actively YES, thanks to Spectra.
- Rafale super cruising? Mach 1.4 sustained with 6 AAM.
- Rafale IR signature? far more IR stealthier than F35, because needed less power (able to supercruise with 10 tons thrust when F35 can't with 12.5 tons ! F35 is as aerodynamic as a piece of sugar)
- Rafale Helmet : will be integrated next year with first Qatar delivery.
- VTOL : no need. We are not using this king of plane like GB. Too short legs.

*********

About war : USA loosed Vietnam. Aphganistan war is not closed. Irak is a whorehouse since your last intervention.
France won in Algeria (but politically loose), in Lybia (with same result than you in Irak ...) and in Mali, alone, and with compliment from US army.

********

At least read some newspapers !
36 new Rafale will cost 40% less thant first bid because indigenization and bases accomodation is already paid.
http://www.pressreader.com/india/the-times-of-india-mumbai-edition/20170825/282213715948375

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## Dark Lord Forever

BON PLAN said:


> Marcel Dassault was a genius. Before all the computing methods, he was able to produce some top world class fighter and private jets with a 10000 workers compagny.


Maybe he was a genius but that statement was dumb as a rock.



BON PLAN said:


> - Rafale Stealthy? actively YES, thanks to Spectra.


No. stealth means sharp corners in design. Rafale is round.



BON PLAN said:


> - Rafale super cruising? Mach 1.4 sustained with 6 AAM.


Uses afterburner so not supercurse. 



BON PLAN said:


> - Rafale IR signature? far more IR stealthier than F35, because needed less power (able to supercruise with 10 tons thrust when F35 can't with 12.5 tons !


To lower IR sign a new 5th gen engine is needed which France doesn't have.



BON PLAN said:


> F35 is as aerodynamic as a piece of sugar


F35 is a trillion dollar program. It is one the most wind tunnel tested plane in the world.



BON PLAN said:


> - Rafale Helmet : will be integrated next year with first Qatar delivery.


Not same as F35 helmet and that too in future.



BON PLAN said:


> - VTOL : no need. We are not using this king of plane like GB. Too short legs.


VTOL is a must for a modern navy. It could turn any helicopter carrier like Mistral into full blown aircraft carrier.



BON PLAN said:


> About war : USA loosed Vietnam. Aphganistan war is not closed. Irak is a whorehouse since your last intervention.


USA won Vietnam but lost its support at home. Afghanistan's mess is Pakistan's doing otherwise it too could've been easy victory.



BON PLAN said:


> France won in Algeria (but politically loose), in Lybia (with same result than you in Irak ...) and in Mali, alone, and with compliment from US army.


Algeria was lost. many people died. It was a bloodbath. Libya is now a terror state. Mali is a tiny little blimp in African map that doesn't even have an airfoce.



BON PLAN said:


> At least read some newspapers !


No, I read on internet.



BON PLAN said:


> 36 new Rafale will cost 40% less thant first bid because indigenization and bases accomodation is already paid.
> http://www.pressreader.com/india/the-times-of-india-mumbai-edition/20170825/282213715948375


Nothing is confirmed only speculations.


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## Joe Shearer

Dark Lord Forever said:


> france paid good mony to indian politicians and ripped off india. now no need to cry about it. we know what happen. they sold indian mixed pickle airforce some 4 generation junk at cost of brand new f35.  and now this 50 cent french troll is trying to sell indian mixed pickle airforce even more junk at f35 price. @BON PLAN
> 
> pethetic country full of pethetic idiots.



Truly pithetic. You nailed it right. Takes an outside point of view to really get things in pisspective.

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## John Reese

Joe Shearer said:


> Truly pithetic. You nailed it right. Takes an outside point of view to really get things in pisspective.


Dada ji This Is real Candidate for ignore List

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## Joe Shearer

X_Killer said:


> Again I want to point out you as a *FALSE FLAGGER
> *
> And as far as capability is considered, IAF know what they want and what they are ordering.
> F-35 is nothing more than a reel fighter where as rafale is real fighter.
> Rafale have far less frontal RCS than F-35 with the DEDIRA suite.
> You guys feel the heat.
> 
> 
> You should know, I always read it in short form as *PAF*



Pithetic. Criticising a poor guy just because he likes colour in his flags. Read his posts, read the content (not this one, but one that has content). And look at his brilliant, artistic use of emoticons.

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## Dark Lord Forever

John Reese said:


> Dada ji This Is real Candidate for ignore List


truth hurts. i know.


cover your ears and repete modi modi modi modi.


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## X_Killer

Joe Shearer said:


> Pititicising a poor guy just because he likes colour in his flags. Read his posts, read the content (not this one, but one that has content). And look at his brilliant, artistic use of emoticons.


Why don't you go through the technical data instead the so called artistic use of emotions?
I don't call him a "Troll" , he is just a "false flagger with Indian Flag".
Try to track his/her IP. Rest you can understand....


----------



## Joe Shearer

X_Killer said:


> Why don't you go through the technical data instead the so called artistic use of emotions?
> I don't call him a "Troll" , he is just a "false flagger with Indian Flag".
> Try to track his/her IP. Rest you can understand....



That's been done dozens of times. He is well known as a false flagger, who enjoys a certain degree of protection.

Why don't you develop a sense of humour? We have enough pompous idiots, don't need any more.

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## hassamun

The Link below explains in great detail why the Rafale is superior to the F-35. Too long an article to post here...

https://defenseissues.net/2015/09/11/dassault-rafale-vs-f-35/

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## BON PLAN

Dark Lord Forever said:


> No. stealth means sharp corners in design. Rafale is round.


OUPS !
Just have a look to B2 bomber..... beautifull curves....








Dark Lord Forever said:


> Uses afterburner so not supercurse.


NO NO NO.
It reach Mach 1.4 with 6AAM without PC !



Dark Lord Forever said:


> To lower IR sign a new 5th gen engine is needed which France doesn't have.


YOU JUST CREATE THE GENERATION IN THE ENGINE !!!! are you paid by LM ?

It's BS. 

The Sugar box F35 need more thrust and request more PC to fly at lower speed ! It's all but stealthier in IR !

In terms of IR signature, primary factors are size, speed and engine emissions. Rafale has two M88 engines producing a total of 9.953 kgf on dry thrust and 15.077 kgf thrust in reheat, compared to 12.700/19.512 kgf for the F135. Further, since Rafale’s engine emissions are divided in two engines, leading to increased cooling due to greater ratio of plume surface area to crosssection. While normally this advantage would be negated by aerodynamic superiority of single-engined aircraft, this is not the case here. F-35s unaerodynamic fuselage means that it requires full dry thrust to achieve speed of Mach 0,95, while Rafale supercruises at Mach 1,4 at equivalent engine setting, and with 6 missiles. Consequently, Rafale has significantly lower engine IR signature when compared to the F-35 at same speed. Rafale also has smaller frontal and side signature,

And *don't forget F35 need to open its internal bays often to refresh itself*.... cold plane you say ?



Dark Lord Forever said:


> Not same as F35 helmet and that too in future.


F35 helmet is more like a fireman helmet than a fighter helmet.





It breaks the small pilot neck.
And the F35 system is unable to follow a ground moving target ! no need of a complicated helmet to do so few.



Dark Lord Forever said:


> USA won Vietnam but lost its support at home.


USA win ?






Same situation for Algeria war for France my dear.








Dark Lord Forever said:


> F35 is a trillion dollar program. It is one the most wind tunnel tested plane in the world.


Sure.
It's why it is unable to sustain more than 7G.



Dark Lord Forever said:


> Algeria was lost. many people died. It was a bloodbath. Libya is now a terror state. Mali is a tiny little blimp in African map that doesn't even have an airfoce.


Vietnam was win? 
Irak is a heaven 
Afganistan is the next place for holydays. 



Dark Lord Forever said:


> Nothing is confirmed only speculations.


Same for the so called "less than 100$million" F35...

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## kaykay

BON PLAN said:


> OUPS !
> Just have a look to B2 bomber..... beautifull curves....
> View attachment 423068
> 
> 
> 
> NO NO NO.
> It reach Mach 1.4 with 6AAM without PC !
> 
> 
> YOU JUST CREATE THE GENERATION IN THE ENGINE !!!! are you paid by LM ?
> 
> It's BS.
> 
> The Sugar box F35 need more thrust and request more PC to fly at lower speed ! It's all but stealthier in IR !
> 
> In terms of IR signature, primary factors are size, speed and engine emissions. Rafale has two M88 engines producing a total of 9.953 kgf on dry thrust and 15.077 kgf thrust in reheat, compared to 12.700/19.512 kgf for the F135. Further, since Rafale’s engine emissions are divided in two engines, leading to increased cooling due to greater ratio of plume surface area to crosssection. While normally this advantage would be negated by aerodynamic superiority of single-engined aircraft, this is not the case here. F-35s unaerodynamic fuselage means that it requires full dry thrust to achieve speed of Mach 0,95, while Rafale supercruises at Mach 1,4 at equivalent engine setting, and with 6 missiles. Consequently, Rafale has significantly lower engine IR signature when compared to the F-35 at same speed. Rafale also has smaller frontal and side signature,
> 
> And *don't forget F35 need to open its internal bays often to refresh itself*.... cold plane you say ?
> 
> 
> F35 helmet is more like a fireman helmet than a fighter helmet.
> View attachment 423073
> 
> 
> It breaks the small pilot neck.
> And the F35 system is unable to follow a ground moving target ! no need of a complicated helmet to do so few.
> 
> 
> USA win ?
> View attachment 423074
> 
> 
> 
> Same situation for Algeria war for France my dear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure.
> It's why it is unable to sustain more than 7G.
> 
> 
> Vietnam was win?
> Irak is a heaven
> Afganistan is the next place for holydays.
> 
> 
> Same for the so called "less than 100$million" F35...


He is a false flagger troll from our western enemy country....you are wasting your time.


----------



## Dark Lord Forever

BON PLAN said:


> OUPS !
> Just have a look to B2 bomber..... beautifull curves....
> View attachment 423068


B2 isn't round. 







No true stealth plane is round shaped.






But Rafale is





Also lack of internal weapon's bay means easy detection.




BON PLAN said:


> NO NO NO.
> It reach Mach 1.4 with 6AAM without PC !
> 
> YOU JUST CREATE THE GENERATION IN THE ENGINE !!!! are you paid by LM ?
> 
> It's BS.


Super cruise with 50KN dry engine? No way. Please provide some credible source for your claim.




BON PLAN said:


> The Sugar box F35 need more thrust and request more PC to fly at lower speed ! It's all but stealthier in IR !
> 
> In terms of IR signature, primary factors are size, speed and engine emissions. Rafale has two M88 engines producing a total of 9.953 kgf on dry thrust and 15.077 kgf thrust in reheat, compared to 12.700/19.512 kgf for the F135. Further, since Rafale’s engine emissions are divided in two engines, leading to increased cooling due to greater ratio of plume surface area to crosssection. While normally this advantage would be negated by aerodynamic superiority of single-engined aircraft, this is not the case here. F-35s unaerodynamic fuselage means that it requires full dry thrust to achieve speed of Mach 0,95, while Rafale supercruises at Mach 1,4 at equivalent engine setting, and with 6 missiles. Consequently, Rafale has significantly lower engine IR signature when compared to the F-35 at same speed. Rafale also has smaller frontal and side signature,
> 
> And *don't forget F35 need to open its internal bays often to refresh itself*.... cold plane you say ?


F35 has many issues because of its stealthy design but this doesn't justify flaws of Rafale which is a non stealth plane.



BON PLAN said:


> F35 helmet is more like a fireman helmet than a fighter helmet.
> View attachment 423073
> 
> 
> It breaks the small pilot neck.
> And the F35 system is unable to follow a ground moving target ! no need of a complicated helmet to do so few.


F-35 helmet is computer in pilot's face. It provides complete HUD and motion controls inside pilot's helmet. A ground breaking feature of its kind. No other plane has this feature. not even Rafale.



BON PLAN said:


> Sure.
> It's why it is unable to sustain more than 7G.


Design choices. They had to choose between maneuverability and stealth. 



BON PLAN said:


> Same for the so called "less than 100$million" F35...


You are including early development costs. F35's flyaway cost is $90 million and soon will fall down to $70 million.

Still even if we count it is a $100+ mill plane it still is cheaper then Rafale which was sold to Indian Air Force at a ripoff price of $220 million a piece for 36 planes.


----------



## X_Killer

Joe Shearer said:


> That's been done dozens of times. He is well known as a false flagger, who enjoys a certain degree of protection.
> 
> Why don't you develop a sense of humour? We have enough pompous idiots, don't need any more.


I don't like false flaggers either from BD or from any other nations.
Residing don't show anyone's nationality.

Hiding nationality is also treated as a lie and there are some idiots here who love to hide their actual nationality.

And request you not to post more spams and behave like a big "I'


----------



## Joe Shearer

X_Killer said:


> I don't like false flaggers either from BD or from any other nations.
> Residing don't show anyone's nationality.
> 
> Hiding nationality is also treated as a lie and there are some idiots here who love to hide their actual nationality.
> 
> And request you not to post more spams and behave like a big "I'



'Spams'? What was I selling in those spams, toothpaste? Are you sure you know what spamming means?


----------



## X_Killer

Joe Shearer said:


> 'Spams'? What was I selling in those spams, toothpaste? Are you sure you know what spamming means?


Surely, I can help you for the same


> spam
> noun
> irrelevant or unsolicited messages sent over the Internet, typically to a large number of users, for the purposes of advertising, phishing, spreading malware, etc.


Enhance you vocabulary than you will understand that promotional content is only a part of spam but it is justified as Irrelevant content to any category.

I again request you not post any off-topic post and also do not force me to respond to your spams.

Good Day


----------



## Joe Shearer

X_Killer said:


> Surely, I can help you for the same
> 
> Enhance you vocabulary than you will understand that promotional content is only a part of spam but it is justified as Irrelevant content to any category.
> 
> I again request you not post any off-topic post and also do not force me to respond to your spams.
> 
> Good Day



LOL.

So, wise man, you think irrelevant content is spam? That's not what your definition says. Perhaps you need to change the definition, or, better still, improve your vocabulary.


----------



## X_Killer

Joe Shearer said:


> LOL.
> 
> So, wise man, you think irrelevant content is spam? That's not what your definition says. Perhaps you need to change the definition, or, better still, improve your vocabulary.


If you want to be dumb than no one can help it.

After lot of request of not posting any off-topic Content (Spam), you are again n again posting the same, This shows your level of understandings. 

Last warning: Stick with the topic and do not post more spams, Otherwise I have to unfollow you.


----------



## Joe Shearer

X_Killer said:


> If you want to be dumb than no one can help it.
> 
> After lot of request of not posting any off-topic Content (Spam), you are again n again posting the same, This shows your level of understandings.
> 
> Last warning: Stick with the topic and do not post more spams, *Otherwise I have to unfollow you.*



Oooh! 

He's getting violent!! 

Whatever it may show about me, it shows your lack of elementary spelling ability.


----------



## X_Killer

Joe Shearer said:


> Whatever it may show about me, it shows your lack of *elementary spelling* ability.


Do you really want to discuss on elementary spelling knowledge?
just look on your below mentioned posts. Why are you behaving like a STUPID who made mistakes but didn't agrees to accept them?

If you have any queries, you may start a conversation. There is no need to ruin this thread.


Joe Shearer said:


> Truly* pithetic.* You nailed it right. Takes an outside point of view to really get things in pisspective.





Joe Shearer said:


> *Pithetic*. Criticising a poor guy just because he likes colour in his flags. Read his posts, read the content (not this one, but one that has content). And look at his brilliant, artistic use of emoticons.



@The Eagle Take care of this person And other false flagger ( @Dark Lord Forever )


----------



## Joe Shearer

X_Killer said:


> Do you really want to discuss on elementary spelling knowledge?
> just look on your below mentioned posts. Why are you behaving like a STUPID who made mistakes but didn't agrees to accept them?
> 
> If you have any queries, you may start a conversation. There is no need to ruin this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @The Eagle Take care of this person And other false flagger ( @Dark Lord Forever )



ROTFL.

Those were plays on the mistakes that the idiot made. Read his post, then read mine.

And aren't you late ignoring me? You were to have done so on my next post, and that's come and gone.


----------



## X_Killer

Joe Shearer said:


> Those were plays on the mistakes that the idiot made. Read his post, then read mine







He is another dumb and you followed him/her with more intensity...


Joe Shearer said:


> And aren't you late ignoring me? You were to have done so on my next post, and that's come and gone.



I already mentioned Admin in the last post. 
I think some ADMINS seriously look over the issues when pointed out by someone. 
Waiting for a permanent solution.


----------



## Joe Shearer

X_Killer said:


> View attachment 423100
> 
> He is another dumb and you followed him/her with more intensity...



Another dumb what? Where did you pick up your English, in a kabadi shop?



> I already mentioned Admin in the last post.
> I think some ADMINS seriously look over the issues when pointed out by someone.
> Waiting for a permanent solution.



You could have asked me, I'd have given you a negative rating, and we could have gone on. You still haven't ignored me. So it was just big talk.


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## X_Killer

Joe Shearer said:


> I'd have given you a negative rating


I never care for biased Ratings..
you may use your biased mentality... 
I generally find Negative rating for Indian member (except false flaggers)


----------



## Joe Shearer

X_Killer said:


> I never care for biased Ratings..
> you may use your biased mentality...
> I generally find Negative rating for Indian member (except false flaggers)



I was just trying to be helpful, avoiding you having to ask here and there. It is amusing how you are blundering around, without a clue about what happened, and seeing everything through your blinkered, limited vision and your severely impaired communications skills. 

Let me summarise: an idiot who is a false flagger was being mocked. You completely missed it, with your earnest, sincere and clueless focus on the possible friction content of the exchanges, and got more and more confused about what was going on. 

In future, engage in conversations, or in arguments, only with your peers. Try to stay out of the way of others. And try not to make a fool of yourself by appealing to the Mods against someone who has an impeccable record, a record built over eight years, not a few months. A record unlike yours, with your 7 negatives.

Now I've had enough of your boring, badly worded, poorly spelt and half-witted posts, and I am going to leave you to stew in your own juice.


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## X_Killer

Joe Shearer said:


> In future, engage in conversations, or in arguments, only with your peers. Try to stay out of the way of others. And try not to make a fool of yourself by appealing to the Mods against someone who has an impeccable record, a record built over eight years, not a few months. A record unlike yours, with your 7 negatives.


Enjoy licking...


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## Joe Shearer

X_Killer said:


> Enjoy licking...



Weren't you the tiger-heart screaming for the moderators to step in? LOL.

Hilarious. 

When it's you, everythings all right, you are carrying forward the total ambience of the group.

When it's someone else, then you scream for the moderators.


----------



## BON PLAN

Dark Lord Forever said:


> No true stealth plane is round shaped.







round? except the nose..... no curve !



Dark Lord Forever said:


> Super cruise with 50KN dry engine? No way. Please provide some credible source for your claim.


2 x 50Kn !
Dassault is a master in aerodynamic... it's well known, even in business jet.

A credible source? official documentation on Dassault stand in 2015 Le Bourget air show.








Dark Lord Forever said:


> F-35 helmet is computer in pilot's face. It provides complete HUD and motion controls inside pilot's helmet. A ground breaking feature of its kind. No other plane has this feature. not even Rafale.


The F35 helmet main quality is that it can break the pilot's neck. Maybe it's why they have limlited the plane to 7G !!! 



Dark Lord Forever said:


> Design choices. They had to choose between maneuverability and stealth.


Strange. The same company was able to have stealth and agility with older F22 ....

Thruth is that they want the plane to be agile, but it fails because of too much compromises. F35 will be good nowhere and average everywhere.



Dark Lord Forever said:


> You are including early development costs. F35's flyaway cost is $90 million and soon will fall down to $70 million.
> 
> Still even if we count it is a $100+ mill plane it still is cheaper then Rafale which was sold to Indian Air Force at a ripoff price of $220 million a piece for 36 planes.


More and more funny !
Now it's not "less than 100$million" ? you have received this night a LM news that the plane will fall to 70 $ million ? 

YOU ARE AN IDIOT BRO. sorry for you.

See the real price structure of Indian Rafale deal : do you math if it's not too hard for you.


----------



## Taygibay

Dark Lord Forever said:


> Super cruise with 50KN dry engine? No way. Please provide some credible source for your claim.



I'm not going to address all your errors in the last 3 pages, mate,
because ... well there are too many of them and too little of my time
but on the above for example, you seem to ignore that engine power
is not the sole factor in establishing maximum speed for an aircraft.



BON PLAN said:


> Marcel Dassault said "a beautifull plane is a plane that fly well".



For example, a smoother airflow will incur less drag and thus
clear the power to speed equation of some negative values.
That is what Dassault meant and he was entirely right.



Dark Lord Forever said:


> Maybe he was a genius but that statement was dumb as a rock.



Actually, the statement is bright but Marcel missed using
his immense wits to explain down to the level of a rock.

​


Joe Shearer said:


> Those were plays on the mistakes that the idiot made. Read his post, then read mine.



I got that, old mate, and yet understand why one would not get it too
so let me offer an artistic variant to your humour :



Joe Shearer said:


> Pathetic. Criticising a poor guy just because he likes colour in his flags. Read his posts, read the content (not this one, but one that has content). And look at his brilliant, autistic use of emoticons.



As one can see, Joe actually showed restraint!
It could have gone much worse; it often does!***

Good day to those who want it, Tay.

*** Overall, it discourages real information exchange,
even for serious posters I may add.



P.S. About : 



Joe Shearer said:


> Weren't you the tiger-heart screaming for the moderators to step in? LOL.
> Hilarious.
> When it's you, everythings all right, you are carrying forward the total ambience of the group.
> When it's someone else, then you scream for the moderators.



 In his defense, he's used to a different kind of moderation.
Let's give the chap time to adjust?

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## Joe Shearer

Taygibay said:


> I'm not going to address all your errors in the last 3 pages, mate,
> because ... well there are too many of them and too little of my time
> but on the above for example, you seem to ignore that engine power
> is not the sole factor in establishing maximum speed for an aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> For example, a smoother airflow will incur less drag and thus
> clear the power to speed equation of some negative values.
> That is what Dassault meant and he was entirely right.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the statement is bright but Marcel missed using
> his immense wits to explain down to the level of a rock.
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> I got that, old mate, and yet understand why one would not get it too
> so let me offer an artistic variant to your humour :
> 
> 
> 
> As one can see, Joe actually showed restraint!
> It could have gone much worse; it often does!***
> 
> Good day to those who want it, Tay.
> 
> *** Overall, it discourages real information exchange,
> even for serious posters I may add.
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. About :
> 
> 
> In his defense, he's used to a different kind of moderation.
> Let's give the chap time to adjust?



Aah, how I miss your dry wit. Thanks, Tay.

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## Taygibay

YVW!​

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## Taygibay

https://www.reuters.com/article/das...th-india-about-more-rafale-jets-idUSP6N1JB02C

Excerpt :

The chief executive of Dassault Aviation on Tuesday said the company was still in discussions 
with India over the possible purchase of additional twin-engine Rafale fighter jets,
on top of the 36 ones India ordered in 2016.
*. . .*
“We’re talking about additional jets.
Nothing is decided, but we’re not going to stop at 36.”​
Great day all, Tay.

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## X_Killer

Taygibay said:


> https://www.reuters.com/article/das...th-india-about-more-rafale-jets-idUSP6N1JB02C
> 
> Excerpt :
> 
> The chief executive of Dassault Aviation on Tuesday said the company was still in discussions
> with India over the possible purchase of additional twin-engine Rafale fighter jets,
> on top of the 36 ones India ordered in 2016.
> *. . .*
> “We’re talking about additional jets.
> Nothing is decided, but we’re not going to stop at 36.”​
> Great day all, Tay.


18 units are more likely as urgent order because there is already an option for additional 18 units which is mentioned in Rafale G2G contract.This makes Dassualt to engage in deliveries of Rafales to India by 2023. Apart from this Dassault already said that DRAL will be able to produce MII Rafales from 2023 onwards (If they got considerable orders).


----------



## Taygibay

*^^^*​


Taygibay said:


> Trappier dixit : ... *on top of *the 36 ones India ordered in 2016.



So beyond the 18 options.

Good day to you, Tay.


----------



## Taygibay

#hydra# said:


> So many options from gripen ,16,18,mig,su30mki,su35& Rafale,. But no purchases so far. Pathetic....





Joe Shearer said:


> In fact, we have no options. We have enormous targets to meet, in the basic needs of our citizens, and in improving the conditions in which we live. Our defence expenditure is forced on us by a hostile neighbourhood, and by the need to preserve our democratic way of life against the hostility and ill-will of these neighbours. This is a forced expense, and every naya paisa saved is useful. Let us not be cavalier about expenditure, other than essential expenditure on food, clothing and housing, on health care and education, on building facilities and infrastructure needed for creation of 13 million jobs a year.



Well, then! Let's be rational.

In order to fit the above paradigm, the zoo has to close!

MKI is a mainstay.
LCA should be too, shoulda been, etc but is it? IF the LCA
CAN do the job after some tweaking, buy as many as you
NEED considering its abilities. If it really can't, just make it a QF.

Then pick one bird only to do the rest and adjust its numbers
according to MEANS.

That will leave the IAF with a much smaller zoo, a petting zoo.
But that menagerie (recent Migs, Jags, M2K, Rafales ) will go
away eventually with time. When it does, India will need AMCA.

By adhering to such a plan, India saves enough on commonality
with only two main types at the forefront of daily use to clear
the path from Tejas to the real jewel ( AMCA or derivative ).

Pick that one plane carefully and for a change, do that quickly!!!
If it's the Rafale as the IAF would prefer, go to MII A._F._S.A.P.!!
If it's a single engine, stay at 36 Rafales, not one more incl. IN,
bite the financial pill that this deal alone would be and go to work
on churning out the required number of the single engine picked!

MKI-one yet undefined workhorse-LCA variable ... and menagerie
turns into MKI/successor_AMCA project result_undef. workhorse.

In such conditions, all the research money can go to AMCA effort.

I read Hydra : India has all the options which may be too much?

For Pete's sake, just buy decisions if you can't make them locally!

Fingers crossed on that ( so hard they're turning blue ), Tay.

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## leapx

I dont think it is that hard to believe Rafale/Typhoon can Super cruise without after-burning.

I even read report that Gripen can Super cruise. I checked it. It was reported that Gripen E did that during a test.

But if super cruise is not take into consideration during design of engine/aircraft, Specific fuel consumption may go too high. It can but it is pointless to do.

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## Joe Shearer

Taygibay said:


> Well, then! Let's be rational.
> 
> In order to fit the above paradigm, the zoo has to close!
> 
> MKI is a mainstay.
> LCA should be too, shoulda been, etc but is it? IF the LCA
> CAN do the job after some tweaking, buy as many as you
> NEED considering its abilities. If it really can't, just make it a QF.
> 
> Then pick one bird only to do the rest and adjust its numbers
> according to MEANS.
> 
> That will leave the IAF with a much smaller zoo, a petting zoo.
> But that menagerie (recent Migs, Jags, M2K, Rafales ) will go
> away eventually with time. When it does, India will need AMCA.
> 
> By adhering to such a plan, India saves enough on commonality
> with only two main types at the forefront of daily use to clear
> the path from Tejas to the real jewel ( AMCA or derivative ).
> 
> Pick that one plane carefully and for a change, do that quickly!!!
> If it's the Rafale as the IAF would prefer, go to MII A._F._S.A.P.!!
> If it's a single engine, stay at 36 Rafales, not one more incl. IN,
> bite the financial pill that this deal alone would be and go to work
> on churning out the required number of the single engine picked!
> 
> MKI-one yet undefined workhorse-LCA variable ... and menagerie
> turns into MKI/successor_AMCA project result_undef. workhorse.
> 
> In such conditions, all the research money can go to AMCA effort.
> 
> I read Hydra : India has all the options which may be too much?
> 
> For Pete's sake, just buy decisions if you can't make them locally!
> 
> Fingers crossed on that ( so hard they're turning blue ), Tay.



Damn' good note, Taygibay. Really lays out the options in crystal clear terms. I'm going back to re-read it and absorb it.

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## Stephen Cohen

Taygibay said:


> Well, then! Let's be rational.
> 
> In order to fit the above paradigm, the zoo has to close!
> 
> MKI is a mainstay.
> LCA should be too, shoulda been, etc but is it? IF the LCA
> CAN do the job after some tweaking, buy as many as you
> NEED considering its abilities. If it really can't, just make it a QF.
> 
> Then pick one bird only to do the rest and adjust its numbers
> according to MEANS.
> 
> That will leave the IAF with a much smaller zoo, a petting zoo.
> But that menagerie (recent Migs, Jags, M2K, Rafales ) will go
> away eventually with time. When it does, India will need AMCA.
> 
> By adhering to such a plan, India saves enough on commonality
> with only two main types at the forefront of daily use to clear
> the path from Tejas to the real jewel ( AMCA or derivative ).
> 
> Pick that one plane carefully and for a change, do that quickly!!!
> If it's the Rafale as the IAF would prefer, go to MII A._F._S.A.P.!!
> If it's a single engine, stay at 36 Rafales, not one more incl. IN,
> bite the financial pill that this deal alone would be and go to work
> on churning out the required number of the single engine picked!
> 
> MKI-one yet undefined workhorse-LCA variable ... and menagerie
> turns into MKI/successor_AMCA project result_undef. workhorse.
> 
> In such conditions, all the research money can go to AMCA effort.
> 
> I read Hydra : India has all the options which may be too much?
> 
> For Pete's sake, just buy decisions if you can't make them locally!
> 
> Fingers crossed on that ( so hard they're turning blue ), Tay.



We have to replace Five planes 
That is Mig 21 ; Mig 27 ; Mirage 2000 ; Jaguar and Mig 29 

They will be replaced by Rafales ; F 16 ; LCA


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## X_Killer

leapx said:


> I dont think it is that hard to believe Rafale/Typhoon can Super cruise without after-burning.


You are contradicting yourself.
You must go through the definition
Supercruise: supersonic without afterburner.

Typhoon can go Mach 1.5 supercruise where Rafale can reach up to Mach 1.4

Also, supercruise is economic , effective as well as efficient.

Good Day



Stephen Cohen said:


> We have to replace Five planes
> That is Mig 21 ; Mig 27 ; Mirage 2000 ; Jaguar and Mig 29
> 
> They will be replaced by Rafales ; F 16 ; LCA


You missed AMCA ...

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## Taygibay

Stephen Cohen said:


> They will be replaced by Rafales ; F 16 ; LCA





X_Killer said:


> You missed AMCA ...



That's the whole thing, the present and next local product!
You must clear a path for them. The 21s and 27s & 29s are goners.
Right now, India is upgrading both the Jags and Mirages which
isn't free and at the same time inducting, fixing and upgrading
the Tejas ( to Mk1-A ) and then there might be a Mark 2, right?
That's a lot of work without even the prospective AMCA.

Reducing the Rafale/F16/Gripen to one pick backed 100% is
the best way to go money wise.




Joe Shearer said:


> Damn' good note, Taygibay. Really lays out the options in crystal clear terms.



Thank you, my good mate! I'm really tired of the daydreamers.

Heck, according to some, we forgot F-35, MiG-35, FGFA, etc.
If the one billion PMs of India had their way, the IAF would buy
a dozen of each fighter made or soon to come.

The farce has to stop.

Great day all, Tay.

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## BON PLAN

leapx said:


> I dont think it is that hard to believe Rafale/Typhoon can Super cruise without after-burning.
> 
> I even read report that Gripen can Super cruise. I checked it. It was reported that Gripen E did that during a test.
> 
> But if super cruise is not take into consideration during design of engine/aircraft, Specific fuel consumption may go too high. It can but it is pointless to do.


All depend of what means "supercruise".
mach 1,01 without PC ?
mach 1.1?
mach 1.2?
mach 1.5 ?
...


----------



## leapx

BON PLAN said:


> All depend of what means "supercruise".
> mach 1,01 without PC ?
> mach 1.1?
> mach 1.2?
> mach 1.5 ?
> ...


I dont know.
But I think first the Mach must be high enough to give weapon considerable advantage on speed/range against your subsonic opponents to call it "super".
Second You get to keep that Mach for considerable time to call it "cruise".
What is the number of F-22?


----------



## Taygibay

Really guys? Again?



BON PLAN said:


> All depend of what means "supercruise".
> mach 1,01 without PC ?
> mach 1.1?
> mach 1.2?
> mach 1.5 ?



By logic, Mach 1,01 is supercruise, however ...
below M 1.2, it is a fight against the conditions.
From roughly M 0,85 to 1,2 the airflow is turbulent.
You want to be below or above hence supercruise.
1.4 or 1.5 is the practical threshold.



leapx said:


> What is the number of F-22?



Classified of course but in an internal USAF exercise, the Raptor did
show us some colors so : 1.5*+* Mach for over 200 nm.
This said, in a mission setting, going for much longer than 100 Nm
already has drawbacks, especially a potential fuel bingo w/o tanker.

Do remember that if supercruise beats afterburners on fuel consumed
which makes it desirable, it still guzzles it a lot more than subsonic ...
a whole big lot and that thus reduces the mission radius.

As always, a single fit all number is not to be had. Understand the above
and find out what your / your target AF_aircraft combo tactic book says.
Then it will be useful?

Great day both, Tay.

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## BON PLAN

leapx said:


> I dont know.
> But I think first the Mach must be high enough to give weapon considerable advantage on speed/range against your subsonic opponents to call it "super".
> Second You get to keep that Mach for considerable time to call it "cruise".
> What is the number of F-22?


Mach 1.5 for F22. Same for Eurofighter
Mach 1.4 for Rafale.


----------



## randomradio




----------



## randomradio

Joe Shearer said:


> Damn' good note, Taygibay. Really lays out the options in crystal clear terms. I'm going back to re-read it and absorb it.





Taygibay said:


> Thank you, my good mate! I'm really tired of the daydreamers.
> 
> Heck, according to some, we forgot F-35, MiG-35, FGFA, etc.
> If the one billion PMs of India had their way, the IAF would buy
> a dozen of each fighter made or soon to come.
> 
> The farce has to stop.
> 
> Great day all, Tay.



You simply haven't considered the timeframe of all these projects.

LCA Mk1A - 2016-2024/27 (3-5 years delivery cycle for 123 jets)
Rafale - 2019-2026 (7 years for 72 jets)
SE MII: Gripen/F-16 - 2024+ (5-7 years for about 200 jets)
FGFA - 2026+
AMCA - 2035+
TE MII: explained later

With our current budget, we are going to induct LCA and Rafale at the same time. By 2025, we can have 159-195 jets, subject to the 2nd order of 36. Two more squadrons of Rafale will be placed for sure because we have 2 bases and only 1 squadron in each right now. By the time this is complete, we will only have maintained our current strength of 33 squadrons. We will continue to be short by 9 squadrons.

After the LCA and the initial lot of 72 Rafales are complete, we will start taking deliveries of Gripen/F-16 and FGFA from Indian factories. So IAF is actually inducting only two types at a time.

HAL's MKI production is ending and will be replaced with the LCA. Once LCA ends, we need to replace that with the FGFA. We can't just shut down HAL's fighter production capability after LCA. Basically, HAL related projects are high priority and will not be stopped.

However, none of these programs take care of the IN's needs. So we are going to see a new project for twin engine jets shared between the IAF and IN. After IN's MRCBF program is complete (deliveries from 2024-2027 for 57 jets), we will see the introduction of a twin engine requirement after 2022 or so, for MII production after 2027, more like 2030. This jet will take care of IAF's need for 200 Rafale class jets and the initial lot of 100 jets for IN's third carrier. This is where Rafale MII comes into play, although this is not Dassault's plan. Dassault is hoping to combine IN's MRCBF for 57 jets and IAF's 2nd tranche of 36 jets into their own tailor made MII plan and overwrite GoI's TE tender plans completely.

So if you consider the timeframe involved, it ain't farce. You have merely forgotten that the IN has a need for 200 fighter jets of their own for their 3 carrier force.

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## Joe Shearer

randomradio said:


> You simply haven't considered the timeframe of all these projects.
> 
> LCA Mk1A - 2016-2024/27 (3-5 years delivery cycle for 123 jets)
> Rafale - 2019-2026 (7 years for 72 jets)
> SE MII: Gripen/F-16 - 2024+ (5-7 years for about 200 jets)
> FGFA - 2026+
> AMCA - 2035+
> TE MII: explained later
> 
> With our current budget, we are going to induct LCA and Rafale at the same time. By 2025, we can have 159-195 jets, subject to the 2nd order of 36. Two more squadrons of Rafale will be placed for sure because we have 2 bases and only 1 squadron in each right now. By the time this is complete, we will only have maintained our current strength of 33 squadrons. We will continue to be short by 9 squadrons.
> 
> After the LCA and the initial lot of 72 Rafales are complete, we will start taking deliveries of Gripen/F-16 and FGFA from Indian factories. So IAF is actually inducting only two types at a time.
> 
> HAL's MKI production is ending and will be replaced with the LCA. Once LCA ends, we need to replace that with the FGFA. We can't just shut down HAL's fighter production capability after LCA. Basically, HAL related projects are high priority and will not be stopped.
> 
> However, none of these programs take care of the IN's needs. So we are going to see a new project for twin engine jets shared between the IAF and IN. After IN's MRCBF program is complete (deliveries from 2024-2027 for 57 jets), we will see the introduction of a twin engine requirement after 2022 or so, for MII production after 2027, more like 2030. This jet will take care of IAF's need for 200 Rafale class jets and the initial lot of 100 jets for IN's third carrier. This is where Rafale MII comes into play, although this is not Dassault's plan. Dassault is hoping to combine IN's MRCBF for 57 jets and IAF's 2nd tranche of 36 jets into their own tailor made MII plan and overwrite GoI's TE tender plans completely.
> 
> So if you consider the timeframe involved, it ain't farce. You have merely forgotten that the IN has a need for 200 fighter jets of their own for their 3 carrier force.



Look at it from another angle.

If you make a table, with the time frames at 5 years' intervals across the top, and the aircraft types along the side, on the x-axis, and fill the numbers in service in those years, you will get what @Taygibay is driving at.

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## randomradio

Joe Shearer said:


> Look at it from another angle.
> 
> If you make a table, with the time frames at 5 years' intervals across the top, and the aircraft types along the side, on the x-axis, and fill the numbers in service in those years, you will get what @Taygibay is driving at.



I have overestimated the timeframes for all.

More optimistic timeframes for the IAF jets.
Stage 1:
LCA - all 123 - 2022
Rafale - last of the 72 - 2025
First Gripen/F-16 - 180 - 2024-2027. 3 squadrons a year.

Total squadrons = 13.5+3+2+4.5...existing + 19 new = 42 squadrons by 2027.
This is the fastest the IAF can manage. They obviously won't.

Stage 2:
First FGFA - 154 jets/8 squad - 2027-2035. First 4 jets delivered in 2025.
First Rafale MII - ~108 jets/5 squad - 2030-35. 1 squadron a year.
Total squadrons in service/ordered = 55.

Peacetime attrition = 0.5 squadron a year. Total squadrons lost until 2035 = ~8 squadrons.

3 Mig-29 and 2.5 Jaguar squadrons to be phased out before 2035.

Total squadrons remaining in 2035 = 41.5 squadrons.

Stage 3:
By this time minimum squadron strength will be increased. M2K, Jaguar and MKI replacement post 2035. Potential = 30.5 squadrons. Compensate with more squadrons for peacetime attrition.
AMCA - 2035+
FGFA Mk2 - 2035+
New family of jets - 2040+


----------



## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> More optimistic timeframes for the IAF jets.
> Stage 1:
> LCA - all 123 - 2022


When you have a look to the past, with HAL, it is VERY OPTIMISTIC. Far too I think....

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## Taygibay

randomradio said:


>





Taygibay said:


> Classified of course but in an internal USAF exercise, the Raptor did
> show us some colors so : 1.5*+* Mach for over 200 nm.
> This said, in a mission setting, *going for much longer than 100 Nm*
> already has drawbacks, especially a potential fuel bingo w/o tanker.



As seen in the top row of that graph which should explain my previous post.

As for the rest,


randomradio said:


> More optimistic timeframes for the IAF jets.
> Stage 1:
> LCA - all 123 - 2022





BON PLAN said:


> When you have a look to the past, with HAL, it is VERY OPTIMISTIC. Far too I think....



Let's see : 2018-2022 gives 5 years so 123 divided by 5 being just shy of 25,
it begs the question _Has HAL even ever produced 25 planes in a year?

I know, I know, I forgot the Tejasses already produced by now and by then ...
so that it's much less but actually, I forget nothing and especially not to temper
my enthusiasm in computing real life prospectives, contrarily to some.





https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-rate-of-production-of-LCA-Tejas​Getting HAL to churn out 16 planes per year should be feasible [ even if the MKI
peaked at 12 since the LCA is smaller and simpler ] but if there is an IOC to Mk1
to Mk1A to Mk2 roadmap inside that 123, you can bet your grandma's wheelchair
safely that production won't run as smoothly as planned ( assuming your granny HAS a wheelchair*** ).

That's a concurrency model and a cursory search will show how well it worked &
is working so far amongst the Phoons and Lite-ning-toos as well as in so many
other military and civilian programs in related fields.
It's not that HAL is incapable of it per say but that HAL is not quite as capable as
much more experienced corps that are having a very hard time with concurrency.

Now, expand that caution to all fighter programs you're dreaming of?

I'm trying to outline the simplest, and thus hopefully shortest too, fighter_ frameline_
for getting India to its numbers with a clear accent on paving the indigenous route.

Sorry I guess? Tay.


*** Or something equivalent; I'd safely bet one of my bikes for example. : )

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> Let's see : 2018-2022 gives 5 years so 123 divided by 5 being just shy of 25, it begs the question _Has HAL even ever produced 25 planes in a year?



Yes. There was a point when we had 3 production lines in HAL building Mig-21, Mig-27 and Jaguars.
​


> Getting HAL to churn out 16 planes per year should be feasible [ even if the MKI
> peaked at 12 since the LCA is smaller and simpler ] but if there is an IOC to Mk1
> to Mk1A to Mk2 roadmap inside that 123, you can bet your grandma's wheelchair
> safely that production won't run as smoothly as planned ( assuming your granny HAS a wheelchair*** ).




16 LCAs a year is the plan. But HAL would like orders doubled in order to increase production to 24. Mk1A has no need for IOC/FOC. And LCA Mk2 is not gonna interfere with the first set of planned 123 aircraft.




> That's a concurrency model and a cursory search will show how well it worked &
> is working so far amongst the Phoons and Lite-ning-toos as well as in so many
> other military and civilian programs in related fields.
> It's not that HAL is incapable of it per say but that HAL is not quite as capable as
> much more experienced corps that are having a very hard time with concurrency.



No, HAL is not following concurrency for Mk1A. It's the same airframe as Mk1, slightly rejigged and the internal estate has been moved around a bit.

IAF refused HAL's concurrency plans. "Get the aircraft to spec and then we will buy".



> Now, expand that caution to all fighter programs you're dreaming of?





> I'm trying to outline the simplest, and thus hopefully shortest too, fighter_ frameline_
> for getting India to its numbers with a clear accent on paving the indigenous route.
> 
> Sorry I guess? Tay.
> 
> 
> *** Or something equivalent; I'd safely bet one of my bikes for example. : )



The issue with the plan you outlined is we will never reach the sanctioned squadrons that way.

Our only aircraft inductions after 2000 were the 13.5 squadrons of MKI and 37 Jaguars. That's 15.5 squadrons. All other aircraft we operate were inducted in the 70s and 80s. So we need to place orders for 26.5 squadrons in order to get to 42 by 2032. And counting modest attrition, we need 34.5 squadrons delivered by 2032.

That's nearly 700 aircraft. This number is only meant to ensure parity. In 5 years, it could change.

Out of 700 we only have orders for 159. We still have to place orders for over 500 aircraft. So we can have the initial 4-6 squadrons each for SE and TE MII, 8 squadrons for FGFA and still have well over 100 jets pending.

And we need 57 flyaway and 100+ jet MII for IN. Independent programs.



BON PLAN said:


> When you have a look to the past, with HAL, it is VERY OPTIMISTIC. Far too I think....



HAL isn't the problem. The delays with LCA came due to development problems related to ADA.

HAL can produce aircraft all right. They have already set up a 19/year line. 3 are for prototypes and LSPs.

Anyway, I pointed out the timeframe was optimistic. HAL says they will deliver all 123 jets (the remaining 103 jets) in just 3 years. That doesn't mean IAF will accept it. They are expected to deliver all anywhere between 2024 and 2027.


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## Hindustani78

Prime Minister's Office
04-October, 2017 18:02 IST
*Mr. Philippe Etienne, Diplomatic Advisor to the President of the French Republic calls on the Prime Minister *


Mr. Philippe Etienne, Diplomatic Advisor to the President of the French Republic called on the Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi today. 

Mr. Etienne briefed the Prime Minister on the strengthening ties between India and France in all sectors, including in the areas of defence and security. 

The Prime Minister fondly recalled his successful visit to France in June 2017. The Prime Minister said that defence and security are two important pillars of the India-France Strategic Partnership, and appreciated the growing bilateral engagement in all sectors. 

The Prime Minister also said that he looks forward to receiving President Macron in India at his earliest convenience. 

***

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## Hindustani78

The Diplomatic Advisor to the President of the French Republic, Mr. Philippe Etienne calls on the Prime Minister, Shri Narendra Modi, in New Delhi on October 04, 2017.








The Diplomatic Advisor to the President of the French Republic, Mr. Philippe Etienne calls on the Prime Minister, Shri Narendra Modi, in New Delhi on October 04, 2017.

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## Gessler

Insider updates thanks to @PARIKRAMA


The present 36 deal's 2 air bases - Ambala and hasimara will have the following
New Shelters of HAS type
New hangars
New Operating Surfaces
De-briefing room
Mission Simulator and Training small room
Main Simulator Training complex at Air force HQ

Present IAF Rafales will get
Interconnection with AFNET and Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS)
IACCS is an automated command and control system for Air Defence (AD) operations on which the whole network of SAM system including our indigenous BMD, S-450 MKI and Barak 8 based MRSAM and XRSAM complex , Spyder and Akash systems will be integrated.
The connectivity with AFNet will lead to integrating all ground-based and airborne sensors, AD weapon systems and C2 nodes with Rafale Sensor suite for a to and fro communication
This implies Rafale will be communicating with
IAF’s AWACS,
UAVs ,
Aerostat,
Other Fighters ,
Military and Communication satellite like GSAT 7A
Ground based assets - SAMs /BMDs
& C4I command centers.

Targeting POD is Litening G4 pod on Rafale.
RWR (Radar Warning Receivers) and Low band Jammers included in the deal as a part fo additional measures

BEL Role + DRAL+ Other Indian MIC roles for Radar
RBE 2 AESA
Back end customized Indian software
Compatible to fire indigenous BVRAAMs 

Certain more weapons option packs available under IAF is also planned to be included.
The weapon pack integration includes
Astra Mk1 and MK2 When available
Brahmos NG
Spice PGMs
Anti radiation Missiles of Indigenous Origin
SAAW based family of Anti runway Missiles (Both Explosive and EMP types)

The weapons package also includes taking over the role of Nuclear Assets in Toss bomb and Air Launched Missile form

SPECTRA
Beyond the threat library shared between India and France , addition of Indian specific libraries will be done locally as well
This includes the EM frequencies of Pakistan and China based Assets (Airborne and Ground Based)
SPECTRA will also provide guidance to these integrated weapons packs

M88-4E Customised Engine
A special pack of ECO beyond French standards is applied for Indian Engines
It includes High altitude package and Hot weather desert package
Additional measures for dust and condensation has been incorporated.
Over a period of time a Safran M88 core powered Kaveri will be incorporated in the Rafale Fleet of IAF

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## #hydra#

Gessler said:


> Insider updates thanks to @PARIKRAMA
> 
> 
> The present 36 deal's 2 air bases - Ambala and hasimara will have the following
> New Shelters of HAS type
> New hangars
> New Operating Surfaces
> De-briefing room
> Mission Simulator and Training small room
> Main Simulator Training complex at Air force HQ
> 
> Present IAF Rafales will get
> Interconnection with AFNET and Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS)
> IACCS is an automated command and control system for Air Defence (AD) operations on which the whole network of SAM system including our indigenous BMD, S-450 MKI and Barak 8 based MRSAM and XRSAM complex , Spyder and Akash systems will be integrated.
> The connectivity with AFNet will lead to integrating all ground-based and airborne sensors, AD weapon systems and C2 nodes with Rafale Sensor suite for a to and fro communication
> This implies Rafale will be communicating with
> IAF’s AWACS,
> UAVs ,
> Aerostat,
> Other Fighters ,
> Military and Communication satellite like GSAT 7A
> Ground based assets - SAMs /BMDs
> & C4I command centers.
> 
> Targeting POD is Litening G4 pod on Rafale.
> RWR (Radar Warning Receivers) and Low band Jammers included in the deal as a part fo additional measures
> 
> BEL Role + DRAL+ Other Indian MIC roles for Radar
> RBE 2 AESA
> Back end customized Indian software
> Compatible to fire indigenous BVRAAMs
> 
> Certain more weapons option packs available under IAF is also planned to be included.
> The weapon pack integration includes
> Astra Mk1 and MK2 When available
> Brahmos NG
> Spice PGMs
> Anti radiation Missiles of Indigenous Origin
> SAAW based family of Anti runway Missiles (Both Explosive and EMP types)
> 
> The weapons package also includes taking over the role of Nuclear Assets in Toss bomb and Air Launched Missile form
> 
> SPECTRA
> Beyond the threat library shared between India and France , addition of Indian specific libraries will be done locally as well
> This includes the EM frequencies of Pakistan and China based Assets (Airborne and Ground Based)
> SPECTRA will also provide guidance to these integrated weapons packs
> 
> M88-4E Customised Engine
> A special pack of ECO beyond French standards is applied for Indian Engines
> It includes High altitude package and Hot weather desert package
> Additional measures for dust and condensation has been incorporated.
> Over a period of time a Safran M88 core powered Kaveri will be incorporated in the Rafale Fleet of IAF


What's his opinion on increasing rafale orders from present 36.


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## BON PLAN

#hydra# said:


> What's his opinion on increasing rafale orders from present 36.


36 more, at least (in G to G deal. In MII, that can be more)
If not India spent too much money for indigenisation, bases accomodation, training.... 

IAF will not make the same mistake than with Mirage 2000 : too few planes, and when they wake up, the line was closed.

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## wiseone2

*India readying IAF base to receive Rafale fighters*
*Rahul Bedi* - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
02 October 2017


India’s federal government has approved INR2.20 billion (USD33.6 million) to develop facilities at an Indian Air Force (IAF) base in the north of the country to accommodate one of two squadrons of the 36 Dassault Rafale fighters it ordered last year from France.



India's federal government recently approved INR2.20 billion (USD33.6 million) to develop facilities at an IAF base to accommodate one of two squadrons of the Dassault Rafale fighters (similar to this one) it ordered last year from France. (Dassault)

Official sources told _Jane’s_on 2 October that the IAF will build several aircraft shelters, hangars, and maintenance amenities at its Ambala base, located 218 km north of New Delhi, for the Rafales, which are scheduled to begin arriving there in September 2019.

They said several teams of experts from Dassault had visited the air base in recent months and are now in the process of finalising plans for the IAF to receive the first Rafale squadron that will be known as the ‘Golden Arrows’.

“Ambala is an obvious choice for the IAF to base a Rafale squadron in the western sector, as the aircraft can be easily scrambled to meet any potential threat posed by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF),” said military analyst Air Marshal V K Bhatia (retd).

The air base is located about 200 km from the Pakistani border and was bombed by the PAF in 1965 during the second of three wars that the neighbouring countries fought after becoming independent 70 years ago.

The Ambala base houses two squadrons of the Jaguar combat aircraft and one of the MiG-21 ‘Bison’ fighter.

The IAF is also upgrading its Hashimara fighter base in eastern India for the second Rafale squadron that is expected to be deployed along the country’s disputed and restive frontier, with China.

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## RISING SUN

*First Rafale will land in India by 2019: Trappier *
*Eric Trappier*, _chairman of the €3.6 billion Dassault Aviation, was recently in India to lay the foundation stone of Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL’s) manufacturing facility at Mihan in Nagpur. With production from DRAL expected to start as early as 2018 and the first Rafale expected to land in India in 2019, Mr. Trappier_ _talks about Dassault’s future plans and getting repeat orders for Rafale combat jets from the Indian government. Edited excerpts:_

*When can we expect the first Rafale to land in India?*

As we have planned, the first Rafale should land in India in 2019. It’s on track.

*How many Rafale jets would be made in India as part of the offset clause?*

It’s not a question of how many Rafale [jets] will be made in India for the first 36 order that we have got. Certain parts of Rafale and Falcon are going to be manufactured in India to start with. We will take a step-by-step approach and we will start manufacturing parts of Rafale in this facility. If there are new orders, we will look at manufacturing here. We are sure that it’s win-win situation. Manufacturing in India is going to be the next step and it depends upon the new orders. For the new orders for Rafale, the jet would be made totally in India.

*How do you intend to fulfil the offset commitment of ₹30,000 crore of the ₹60,000 crore order?*

This is something very important because our company has a very old history with India. We have been continuously supplying to India for the past 65 years. This was possible because of our aircraft and we have a very strategic relationship between France and India. Our government has signed an agreement to supply 36 Rafale jets to India with 50% offset obligation. We will fulfil all our contractual obligations.

*What gives you the confidence that you will get repeat orders for Rafale?*

As of now, we are proposing it to the government but it’s up to the government to go ahead. We have capability to prove that our fighter [jet] is good. It has been bought already. We will deliver the support. We now have the capability to manufacture the aircraft in India. We think we have the right tools to convince the government for repeat orders.

*Is the scope of this partnership with Reliance restricted to Rafale?*

This is a unique opportunity to start manufacturing in India. With our partner Reliance, we also intend to manufacture our business jet Falcon. The first Falcon will soon take off from Indian soil.

*There are concerns in certain quarters that India is overpaying for the current Rafale deal. Your comments?*

You have to ask them [the government] this question.

*Why have you chosen Reliance Group, which with no prior experience in defence, as your JV Partner?*

We are starting with a private company [that wants] to become a global player. I am a private company. It’s an equal partnership. We are investing €100 million for our 49% stake.

*What employment opportunities will this JV create?*

As chairman of French Aerospace Industries Association, I will lead a big delegation of French SMEs here in the coming months. Our facility here will support over 200 SMEs to secure the component and avionics manufacturing needs of Rafale and Falcon jets. It’s not only about Rafale and Dassault. Our French partners and partners of the Reliance Group will set up their facilities here.
http://www.thehindu.com/business/fi...in-india-by-2019-trappier/article20353791.ece

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## BON PLAN

RISING SUN said:


> *First Rafale will land in India by 2019: Trappier *
> *Eric Trappier*, _chairman of the €3.6 billion Dassault Aviation, was recently in India to lay the foundation stone of Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL’s) manufacturing facility at Mihan in Nagpur. With production from DRAL expected to start as early as 2018 and the first Rafale expected to land in India in 2019, Mr. Trappier_ _talks about Dassault’s future plans and getting repeat orders for Rafale combat jets from the Indian government. Edited excerpts:_
> 
> *When can we expect the first Rafale to land in India?*
> 
> As we have planned, the first Rafale should land in India in 2019. It’s on track.
> 
> *How many Rafale jets would be made in India as part of the offset clause?*
> 
> It’s not a question of how many Rafale [jets] will be made in India for the first 36 order that we have got. Certain parts of Rafale and Falcon are going to be manufactured in India to start with. We will take a step-by-step approach and we will start manufacturing parts of Rafale in this facility. If there are new orders, we will look at manufacturing here. We are sure that it’s win-win situation. Manufacturing in India is going to be the next step and it depends upon the new orders. For the new orders for Rafale, the jet would be made totally in India.
> 
> *How do you intend to fulfil the offset commitment of ₹30,000 crore of the ₹60,000 crore order?*
> 
> This is something very important because our company has a very old history with India. We have been continuously supplying to India for the past 65 years. This was possible because of our aircraft and we have a very strategic relationship between France and India. Our government has signed an agreement to supply 36 Rafale jets to India with 50% offset obligation. We will fulfil all our contractual obligations.
> 
> *What gives you the confidence that you will get repeat orders for Rafale?*
> 
> As of now, we are proposing it to the government but it’s up to the government to go ahead. We have capability to prove that our fighter [jet] is good. It has been bought already. We will deliver the support. We now have the capability to manufacture the aircraft in India. We think we have the right tools to convince the government for repeat orders.
> 
> *Is the scope of this partnership with Reliance restricted to Rafale?*
> 
> This is a unique opportunity to start manufacturing in India. With our partner Reliance, we also intend to manufacture our business jet Falcon. The first Falcon will soon take off from Indian soil.
> 
> *There are concerns in certain quarters that India is overpaying for the current Rafale deal. Your comments?*
> 
> You have to ask them [the government] this question.
> 
> *Why have you chosen Reliance Group, which with no prior experience in defence, as your JV Partner?*
> 
> We are starting with a private company [that wants] to become a global player. I am a private company. It’s an equal partnership. We are investing €100 million for our 49% stake.
> 
> *What employment opportunities will this JV create?*
> 
> As chairman of French Aerospace Industries Association, I will lead a big delegation of French SMEs here in the coming months. Our facility here will support over 200 SMEs to secure the component and avionics manufacturing needs of Rafale and Falcon jets. It’s not only about Rafale and Dassault. Our French partners and partners of the Reliance Group will set up their facilities here.
> http://www.thehindu.com/business/fi...in-india-by-2019-trappier/article20353791.ece


It's very important to note that before Dassault needs a minimum of 90 Rafale to initiate the MII. Now a follow on order (ie 36 planes) seems enough.

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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> It's very important to note that before Dassault needs a minimum of 90 Rafale to initiate the MII. Now a follow on order (ie 36 planes) seems enough.



That's because there's probably assurance of more orders in the future. 36 will only allows kits assembly.

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## Hindustani78

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...s-huge-scam/article20444680.ece?homepage=true

The Congress on Tuesday alleged that a "huge scam is brewing" in the Rafale deal and accused the Modi government of "promoting the interests of Prime Minister's crony capitalist friends”.

Addressing a press conference, Congress communication chief Randeep Surjewala said the Modi government violated the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) and bypassed the interests of PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

"On April 10, Prime Minister Modi visits France and announces the deal for purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft in flyaway condition. This was done unilaterally without following the DPP, without any inter-governmental agreement and in the absence of India's Defence Minister. However, Mr Anil Ambani, owner of Reliance Defence Limited, was present in France during the Prime Minister's visit," alleged Mr Surjewala.

Anil Ambani-led Reliance Defence Limited described the allegations as “baseless” and “unfounded” and asserted that Mr. Ambani was part of the PM’s delegation as a member of the Indo-French CEO Forum. “Shri Anil Ambani is a member of Indo- French CEO Forum. In the said meeting, more than 20 CEOs were present,” said a statement from the Reliance Defence Limited.

The Congress leader claimed that while the UPA government had signed the Rafale deal as a joint venture between its French maker, Dassault Aviation, and India's HAL, the Modi government cancelled the entire process on 30 July, 2015. 

This in turn, alleged the Congress party, helped Reliance Defence Limited as they entered into a joint venture with Dassault. 

Giving out a chronological sequence of the deal, the Congress party said while India signed the $8.7 billion deal on September 23 last year, just 10 days later, on October 3, 2016, Reliance Defence Limited entered into a joint venture with the French fighter plane maker.

"It is time for the PM to answer why the planes were bought at such an inflated costs? Is it not true that as per UPA negotiated price, the cost of one plane was Rs 526.1 crores whereas under NDA, the plane is costing Rs 1570 crores? Why was transfer of technology for HAL not insisted? And finally, has the joint venture between Dassault and Reliance Defence been cleared by the Union Cabinet?" asked the Congress leader.

Stating the joint venture between Reliance Defence and Dassault was between two private entities and the government didn’t have a role, Reliance Defence said, “Government policy issued on 24 June 2016 allows for 49% FDI in the Defence Sector under the automatic route, without any prior approval. No approvals from the Union Cabinet or CCS were required for the formation of the aforesaid Joint Venture company under the automatic route.”

When the Congress leader was asked why the party was raising the issue now, especially since all the facts about the Rafale deal were in public domain, Mr. Surjewala said, "No, we had raised it then as well. Former Defence Minister A.K Antony, Manish Tewari and myself had raised it outside as well in Parliament. We were told that nothing has been signed. The deal has been signed last September and since then we have trying to gather information."


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## ejaz007

*India's Opposition Smells Rat in Rafale Deal*
© AFP 2017/ ANNE-CHRISTINE POUJOULAT
ASIA & PACIFIC
16:29 15.11.2017(updated 17:08 15.11.2017)Get short URL
 0 30452

The Indian National Congress has questioned the rationale behind the Narendra Modi-led government's decision to purchase French Rafale jets at an inflated price.

New Delhi (Sputnik) — With France pushing for the sale of more Rafale combat jets to India, India's main opposition party, the Indian National Congress (INC), has charged the Narendra Modi-led government with violating serious defense purchase rules and has alleged that the Rafale deal undermines national interest and national security.

Citing a the series of questionable developments that led to the signing of the "costly" Rafale deal, the INC has demanded Prime Minister Narendra Modi answer every doubt the opposition has about the deal.

"Why is the Modi government buying 36 Rafale aircraft at a highly inflated price compared to the originally negotiated base price by the previous government? Is it not correct that the Modi government is buying 36 Rafale aircraft without the transfer of technology for $8.7 billion while the previous government had negotiated 126 Rafale aircraft at a base price of $10.2 billion along with the transfer of technology," Randeep Singh Surjewala, principal spokesperson of INC said.






© REUTERS / REGIS DUVIGNAU/FILES
India Wants 36 More French-Made Rafale Fighter Jets
Surjewala said that a "huge scam" is brewing with regard to the procurement of fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force. "Why was this done by Prime Minister bypassing the interests of a reputed public sector undertaking like Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)? Why has the joint venture for the biggest ever Indian defense deal between Dassault Aviation and Reliance Defence Limited not gone through the proper procedure of approval by the Union Cabinet, Cabinet Committee on Security and Foreign Investment Promotion Board?" Surjewala said.

The corruption allegation comes just a few days after the French defense minister along with Dassault Chairman Eric Trappier laid the foundation stone of Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited's (DRAL's) manufacturing facility at Mihan in India. The plant is expected to start production as early as 2018, and the first Rafale is expected to land in India in 2019. During his recent Indian tour, Trappier tried to evade the Indian media's question on why Dassault had inflated the price of 36 Rafale. "You have to ask the [Indian] government this question," Trappier had replied.

https://sputniknews.com/asia/201711151059116739-rafale-india-scam/


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## Hindustani78

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...f-bs-dhanoa/story-cgpjIpskxeiVcy8NT2gIqN.html

Indian Air Force chief BS Dhanoa

On technology transfer, he said, “Technology may not be going to the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) but it is coming to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and then to a lot of Indians”.

The IAF chief said a plan was in place to deal with the “drop-down” -- or dip -- in IAF squadrons.

He said the government had ordered two squadrons of Su 30.

“The drop-down will be made up by two Rafale, two Su 30, two LCA squadrons and 80 more aircraft which will give four more squadrons,” he said.

The government has authorised 42 squadrons to the IAF and at present there are 33.

He, however, added that the drop-down did not affect the performance of the force.

“It does not mean that we cannot carry out operations. We can do restricted operations. For carrying out full-spectrum operations the IAF needs a certain amount of force,” he said.

“There was an order of 272 aircraft and once again we were 35 short by March 2017,” he said.

Dhanoa said a contract was signed in March 2006 for 20 Tejas aircraft to be delivered between April 2009 and December 2010.

“Out of these 20 aircraft, only five were received ... Again a contract was signed in December 2010 for 20 more aircraft to be delivered between June 2014 and December 2016. So we have already committed to 40 aircraft in addition to 83 more Tejas,” he said.

He said the IAF would induct Mark 2 fighters with higher thrust engines and new weapons by 2027.

Shortcomings in LCA Mark 1 will be removed in the LCA Mark 1A aircraft and then Mark 2 will be manufactured, he said.

“Gradually we will make advanced Medium Combat Aircraft, moving from low medium to high technology aircraft,” he said. PTI VSD BDS

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## Hindustani78

The Minister for Europe and Foreign Affairs of the Republic of France, Mr. Jean-Yves Le Drain meeting the Minister of State (I/C) for Power and New and Renewable Energy, Shri Raj Kumar Singh, in New Delhi on November 17, 2017.




The Minister for Europe and Foreign Affairs of the Republic of France, Mr. Jean-Yves Le Drain meeting the Minister of State (I/C) for Power and New and Renewable Energy, Shri Raj Kumar Singh, in New Delhi on November 17, 2017. The Secretary, Ministry of Power, Shri Ajay Kumar Bhalla is also seen.


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## Hindustani78

Prime Minister's Office
17-November, 2017 17:48 IST
*French Minister for Europe and Foreign Affairs calls on PM*



Mr. Jean-Yves Le Drian, Minister for Europe and Foreign Affairs of France, called on Prime Minister Narendra Modi today. 

He briefed the Prime Minister on recent developments in the bilateral relationship as follow-up to the Prime Minister’s visit to France in June 2017. 

The Prime Minister appreciated the contribution of Mr. Le Drian to the growing India-France engagement, in his current role as well as in his earlier role as Defence Minister of France. 

The Prime Minister said that the significance of India-France Strategic Partnership is not limited to the bilateral context, but acts as a force for peace and stability in the regional and global context as well. 

The Prime Minister also said that he looks forward to receiving President Macron in India at his earliest convenience. 

****


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## Hindustani78

The Minister for Europe and Foreign Affairs of France, Mr. Jean-Yves Le Drian meeting the Union Minister for Finance and Corporate Affairs, Shri Arun Jaitley, in New Delhi on November 17, 2017.


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## rajiv sharma

randomradio said:


> That's because there's probably assurance of more orders in the future. 36 will only allows kits assembly.


or perhaps my government has struck a deal to rope in dassault for AMCA program and the plans are bigger and long term vizaviz fighter jet's production , although it is only a guess from my side

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## BON PLAN

rajiv sharma said:


> or perhaps my government has struck a deal to rope in dassault for AMCA program and the plans are bigger and long term vizaviz fighter jet's production , although it is only a guess from my side


It's possible.
I'm not sure Dassault see his futur in europe.... Europe purchasing US planes

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## randomradio

rajiv sharma said:


> or perhaps my government has struck a deal to rope in dassault for AMCA program and the plans are bigger and long term vizaviz fighter jet's production , although it is only a guess from my side



We are discussing this stuff on another forum.

GoI has probably asked the IAF to choose between a SE MII and TE MII, and IAF will obviously choose TE MII. So advantage LCA.

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## Papa Dragon

*Rafale makers invite French SMEs to set up shop in India*
After securing a deal to sell 36 Rafale fighters jets to India, and not withstanding the political brouhaha that has erupted in its wake, Dassault Aviation is looking to attract and house an organic ecosystem of French SMEs in India. The aim is to secure its component manufacturing needs here.

France’s Centre Val de Loire Regional Council and Aerocentre invited the companies behind the development of the Rafale fighter jet, Dassault Aviation, Safran and Thales — which together make up Rafale International — to showcase and present to the SMEs in the region, how they are helping set up an industrial aeronautical sector in India.

Some 50-odd small businesses in France were present on the occasion. The companies spoke on how they would be contributing to ‘Make in India’ as part of the Rafale offset programme, even as they presented the many opportunities available for French SMEs to invest and set up production facilities in India.

Defining a roadmap for the French SMEs to help them join the Dassault Aviation, Safran and Thales global supply chain, the companies said the initiative would help bolster the industrial ecosystem already under way in India, and would benefit both French and Indian partners.

Meantime, components for the Dassault Falcon 2000s are also to be made in India from the first quarter of next year, when the joint venture Dassault Reliance Aerospace manufacturing facility opens up in Mihan, Nagpur.

After the facility gains expertise in manufacturing components for the Falcon 2000 jets, it could also expand capabilities to include final assembly of Rafale fighters.

http://www.defencenews.in/article/Rafale-makers-invite-French-SMEs-to-set-up-shop-in-India-454808

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...es-to-set-up-shop-in-india/article9976722.ece

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> We are discussing this stuff on another forum.


which one ?
Thanks.


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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> which one ?
> Thanks.



The one we have abandoned.

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> The one we have abandoned.


Sorry.... I was tired.


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## X_Killer

BON PLAN said:


> Sorry.... I was tired.


You are already there... Remember IAF Chronicles...


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## BON PLAN

X_Killer said:


> You are already there... Remember IAF Chronicles...


Funny.

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## monitor

Rafale close shot.

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## BON PLAN

*Rafale Deal: Dassault, US Ex-Envoy Flagged HAL’s Quality Control*

The stalemate between the Indian government and French aircraft manufacturing company Dassault over the supply of 126 fourth-generation Rafale fighter jets, was not so much because of pricing as much as the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd’s (HAL) competence to deliver on quality, top Indian Air Force sources have revealed to *The Quint*.

https://www.thequint.com/news/india/rafale-deal-dassault-us-envoy-unhappy-hal-quality-control


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## Hindustani78

“During the UPA the deal signed and the cost per aircraft was ₹526.1 crore. What we have heard is that the same Rafale jets have now been procured for ₹1570.8 crores. Is it true? Who will speak on it? The Defence Minister refuses to speak, the Defence Secretary is silent. The government doesn’t speak inside or outside Parliament,” said Mr. Azad. Mr. Surjewala said the same aircraft was sold to Qatar by Dassault Aviation that makes Rafale fighter jets for ₹694.8 crores, presumably much lower than what the NDA government paid for them.

***********

Ministry of Defence
07-February, 2018 17:28 IST 

Information Relating to Inter-Governmental Agreement on Rafale 


Unfounded allegations are being made regarding the 2016 Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) to procure 36 Rafale aircraft in fly-away condition from France.  This would normally not have merited a response but for the serious damage being caused by the misleading statements, sought to be repeatedly perpetrated on a serious matter of national security.

It ought to be remembered that it was under the ten-year tenure of the previous Government at the Centre that the earlier initiative of 2002 to meet requirement of the Indian Air Force (IAF) for much needed augmentation of its fighter strength ran aground. In 2012, the then Defence Minister exercised an unprecedented personal veto on the laid down institutional process then underway for procurement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). All this happened when there was an alarming decline in IAF’s fighter strength.

In another effort to twist facts, the Government is asked why it did not conduct negotiations with a particular company representing a competing fighter aircraft. It seems to have been conveniently forgotten that the then Government itself had rejected that company’s unsolicited offer made days after closure of the bid process, declared Rafale (DA) as the L1 bidder and had commenced negotiations with it in February 2012.

The demand that the Government disclose the details and value of the contract for the Rafale aircraft contracted in 2016 is unrealistic. [In keeping with confidentiality requirements, the UPA Government had also expressed its inability to disclose the price of various defence procurements, including in its responses to Parliament Questions]. The approximate acquisition cost of the Rafale aircraft has already been provided to the Parliament. Provision of exact item-wise cost and other information will reveal, inter alia, details regarding the various customizations and weapons systems specially designed to augment the effectiveness and lethality of the assets, impact our military preparedness and compromise our national security. Such details would also come under the ambit of the security agreement signed in 2008. Thus, in not revealing the item-wise details of the contract, the Government is merely following in letter and spirit the confidentiality provisions of a bilateral India-France Agreement of 2008 signed by the previous Government.

As doubts are sought to be created about the 2016 contract for 36 aircraft, it is once again strongly reiterated that the deal secured by the Government is better in terms of capability, price, equipment, delivery, maintenance, training, etc., than that notionally negotiated by the then Government in a process it could not conclude in ten years. Moreover, the present Government completed these negotiations in just about one year.

It is also stressed once again that the procurement of 36 Rafale aircraft through an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) with France to meet the urgent need of the IAF is strictly in accordance with the Defence Procurement Procedure in all aspects including mandating, conducting and monitoring of negotiations and seeking all necessary approvals, including that of the Cabinet Committee on Security, before entering into the IGA. The aircraft had already been evaluated successfully by IAF during 2009-10.

It may also be noted that contrary to the impression sought, to be created by the Opposition, in the earlier proposal to procure Rafale, which ended in a stalemate, there was no provision for transfer of technology but only to manufacture under licence. The Government was unable to agree on the terms for even that in its negotiations with the vendor, resulting in the long-drawn exercise under the earlier Government ultimately turning futile. Further, no Indian Offset Partner for the 2016 deal for 36 Rafale Aircraft has been so far selected by the vendor (DA) because as per the applicable guidelines, DA is free to select the Indian Offset Partners and provide their details at the time of seeking offset credits, or one year prior to discharge of offset obligation.


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## Taygibay

When Qatar signed on December 7 for its 12 optional Rafales
from the deal of 24 worth it paid 1.1B€.
The original deal of 24 was for 6.3B€ so they total 7.4 for 36.

http://www.rediff.com/news/special/has-india-paid-more-for-the-rafales/20171201.htm​
India paid 7.8B€ or 400k more but with more/different options.

So 2 conclusions :
1- India paid the same as Qatar!
2- A naked Rafale is worth 1.1B€ * 12
or 91.666 (periodic) million Euros.​Now if that can help stop the blah blah blah from both
trolls and politically oriented Indian media pieces / fans,
it would make my old scarred and bleeding heart feel as
if it was all gooey & chocolaty & covered in raspberry coulis.

I'm open to betting dollars versus cookies that it won't happen!

Oh m'well, g'dday, Tay.

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## Hell hound

Taygibay said:


> When Qatar signed on December 7 for its 12 optional Rafales
> from the deal of 24 worth it paid 1.1B€.
> The original deal of 24 was for 6.3B€ so they total 7.4 for 36.
> 
> http://www.rediff.com/news/special/has-india-paid-more-for-the-rafales/20171201.htm​
> India paid 7.8B€ or 400k more but with more/different options.
> 
> So 2 conclusions :
> 1- India paid the same as Qatar!
> 2- A naked Rafale is worth 1.1B€ * 12
> or 91.666 (periodic) million Euros.​Now if that can help stop the blah blah blah from both
> trolls and politically oriented Indian media pieces / fans,
> it would make my old scarred and bleeding heart feel as
> if it was all gooey & chocolaty & covered in raspberry coulis.
> 
> I'm open to betting cookie versus dollars that it won't happen!
> 
> Oh m'well, g'dday, Tay.


come on mate i was enjoying the rant and you spoiled it with your sensible post

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## Hindustani78

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...l-unfounded/article22681774.ece?homepage=true

* Details can’t be disclosed, says Centre *

Dismissing the allegations on the Rafale fighter deal with France, the government claimed on Wednesday that its deal was better than the one “notionally negotiated by the then government in a process it could not conclude in 10 years.”

“Unfounded allegations are being made regarding the 2016 Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) to procure 36 Rafale aircraft in fly-away condition from France. This would normally not have merited a response but for the serious damage being caused by the misleading statements, sought to be repeatedly perpetrated on a serious matter of national security,” the Defence Ministry said in a statement.

Stating that the details and value of the contract cannot be disclosed due to the “confidentiality requirements,” the Ministry called demands for their disclosure “unrealistic.”

*‘Compromise security’*
The Ministry said that provision of exact item-wise cost and other information would reveal details regarding the various customisations and weapons systems specially designed to increase the effectiveness and lethality of the aircraft and would impact military preparedness and compromise national security.

“Such details would also come within the ambit of the security agreement signed in 2008. Thus, in not revealing the item-wise details, the government is merely following in letter and in spirit the confidentiality provisions of a bilateral Agreement of 2008 signed by the previous government,” it said.

*********

the various customisations and weapons systems specially designed to increase the effectiveness and lethality of the aircraft and would impact military preparedness and compromise national security.

the deal secured by the Government is better in terms of capability, price, equipment, delivery, maintenance, training, etc., than that notionally negotiated by the then Government in a process it could not conclude in ten years.

Seems the details have been shared with the enemies which is direct violation of the agreement and the Qatari and Egyptian Military will terminate the maintenance, training as well as equipment agreement with the French Government and will go for different country.


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## BON PLAN

Hindustani78 said:


> same aircraft was sold to Qatar by Dassault Aviation that makes Rafale fighter jets for ₹694.8 crores, presumably much lower than what the NDA government paid for them.


it depend.
Is it for the first 24 (24 planes AND all the support, tools, spares, training...)
Or the last 12 (only 12 dry planes for 1.1 €billion)

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## randomradio

Taygibay said:


> When Qatar signed on December 7 for its 12 optional Rafales
> from the deal of 24 worth it paid 1.1B€.
> The original deal of 24 was for 6.3B€ so they total 7.4 for 36.
> 
> http://www.rediff.com/news/special/has-india-paid-more-for-the-rafales/20171201.htm​
> India paid 7.8B€ or 400k more but with more/different options.
> 
> So 2 conclusions :
> 1- India paid the same as Qatar!
> 2- A naked Rafale is worth 1.1B€ * 12
> or 91.666 (periodic) million Euros.​Now if that can help stop the blah blah blah from both
> trolls and politically oriented Indian media pieces / fans,
> it would make my old scarred and bleeding heart feel as
> if it was all gooey & chocolaty & covered in raspberry coulis.
> 
> I'm open to betting dollars versus cookies that it won't happen!
> 
> Oh m'well, g'dday, Tay.





Hell hound said:


> come on mate i was enjoying the rant and you spoiled it with your sensible post



Qatar bought more weapons and training, while India bought more customization. Plus, India's deal comes with 50% offsets, so there is ToT, spares production etc involved.

So the overall cost to India was much lesser.


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## 帅的一匹

Seems Modi goverment corrupts a lot in this Rafale deal.

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## BON PLAN

wanglaokan said:


> Seems Modi goverment corrupts a lot in this Rafale deal.


proof? source?

Too easy to spread such news without any support.

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## 帅的一匹

BON PLAN said:


> proof? source?
> 
> Too easy to spread such news without any support.


12.6 billion for 126 Rafale by Congress and now 10 billions for only 36 Rafael.

If this deal go through, then democracy dies in India. The opposition party will keep it in check.

300 millions for a Rafale? Go to hell

The redneck BJP is more avaricious than the Bahratis Congress.

I expect the deal will be suspended.


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## Taygibay

wanglaokan said:


> 12.6 billion for 126 Rafale by Congress and now 10 billions for only 36 Rafael. ... 300 millions for a Rafale?




Not 10 billions, 7.8, strike one!

Not 12.6 billions either as the perimeter of the deal
was different and it was a non-finalized entry price.
Strike two.

Not 300 millions for a Rafale, 92m, read post #6367.
Strike three.

Before getting to the subjective part your reasoning
was flawed by use of the wrong facts, mate.

Sorry but good day, Tay.

P.S. Not Rafael either.

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## Nilgiri

Taygibay said:


> Not 10 billions, 7.8, strike one!
> 
> Not 12.6 billions either as the perimeter of the deal
> was different and it was a non-finalized entry price.
> Strike two.
> 
> Not 300 millions for a Rafale, 92m, read post #6367.
> Strike three.
> 
> Before getting to the subjective part your reasoning
> was flawed by use of the wrong facts, mate.
> 
> Sorry but good day, Tay.
> 
> P.S. Not Rafael either.



Thanks for repeating yet again ....whats been said a million times already to the same set of people asking it/ droning on it.

I admire your patience good friend  ...but some ppl just wont be convinced on certain subject matters, no matter what comes their way.

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## randomradio

Nilgiri said:


> Thanks for repeating yet again ....whats been said a million times already to the same set of people asking it/ droning on it.
> 
> I admire your patience good friend  ...but some ppl just wont be convinced on certain subject matters, no matter what comes their way.



Election time coming up in Karnataka. And since HAL works from the state, Congress is targeting a contract that did not go to HAL.

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## Taygibay

Nilgiri said:


> I admire your patience good friend  ...but some ppl just wont be convinced on certain subject matters, no matter what comes their way.



It's like that with the daily zombies anyhow so why not here?
Plus, I take breaks!

*sigh / hug* Tay.

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## BON PLAN

wanglaokan said:


> 12.6 billion for 126 Rafale by Congress and now 10 billions for only 36 Rafael.
> 
> If this deal go through, then democracy dies in India. The opposition party will keep it in check.
> 
> 300 millions for a Rafale? Go to hell
> 
> The redneck BJP is more avaricious than the Bahratis Congress.
> 
> I expect the deal will be suspended.


No way ! The contract is inked (you were not forced to) and a first payment made.

You were gentle dreamers to expect 126 medium high end fighters for 12 billions ! (with weaponery, base adaptation, tailor made equipments, 7 years top support so as to keep 75% availability...)
Maybe ask a proposal to your old friends Paky for 126 JF17. 



Taygibay said:


> Not 10 billions, 7.8, strike one!
> 
> Not 12.6 billions either as the perimeter of the deal
> was different and it was a non-finalized entry price.
> Strike two.
> 
> Not 300 millions for a Rafale, 92m, read post #6367.
> Strike three.
> 
> Before getting to the subjective part your reasoning
> was flawed by use of the wrong facts, mate.
> 
> Sorry but good day, Tay.
> 
> P.S. Not Rafael either.


He's one of these guy understanding quite nothing to the subject, but screaming with the crowd...
(The scientist shows the moon, the imbecile looks the finger)

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## Taygibay

But as an imbecile, it wouldn't really be his fault ...
et puis permanence et discrétion de l'action *cough* !

 Tay.

P.S. 710 points out of which 630 were real world tests
by IAF for which 2 got over 600 [614-613 EF-Raffy].

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## Hindustani78

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...-dassaults-choice-nirmala/article22794639.ece

* ‘Defence Ministry would get to know about the Indian partner only when it applied for credit after fulfilling the offset obligation’ *

Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman said in Bengaluru on Sunday that the Inter- Government Agreement for the Rafale fighter jets deal did not name HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) or any other company as partner of Dassault Aviation.

She said, “The Inter-Government Agreement is like a memorandum of understanding, which only broadly states intention. It does not name anybody, not HAL or any other private company.

The Indian Defence Ministry would get to know about the partner only when it applied for credit after fulfilling the offset obligation. Prices of the aircraft were bound to go up as would want to upgrade the basic, cheaper fighter jet to suit its terrain and potential use.


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## Hindustani78

Hindustani78 said:


> The Minister for Europe and Foreign Affairs of the Republic of France, Mr. Jean-Yves Le Drain meeting the Minister of State (I/C) for Power and New and Renewable Energy, Shri Raj Kumar Singh, in New Delhi on November 17, 2017.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Minister for Europe and Foreign Affairs of the Republic of France, Mr. Jean-Yves Le Drain meeting the Minister of State (I/C) for Power and New and Renewable Energy, Shri Raj Kumar Singh, in New Delhi on November 17, 2017. The Secretary, Ministry of Power, Shri Ajay Kumar Bhalla is also seen.




Dismissing allegations of corruption in the contract for 36 Rafale jets, German defence minister today asserted there can be no comparison between howitzer deal and the procurement of the fighter aircraft.

"Do not even compare it (Rafale deal) with howitzer deal . There is no scam here," defence minister told reporters when asked whether F-16 will go the German howitzer deal way.



*********


Defence minister Sitharaman said she would welcome if the opposition raises the issue of procurement of Fifth Generation fighter jets when the budget session of the Parliament reconvenes from Monday.

"I will welcome it (if opposition raises it)," she said.

There were allegations that payoffs were made in the procurement of the artillery guns in the late 1980s during the then Congress government. The allegations and its subsequent political ramifications had severely crippled the Indian Army's procurement of artillery guns.

The Bofors was an artillery gun project for purchase for 410 guns ordered for Rs 1,500 crore during the tenure of Rajiv Gandhi as Prime Minister (1984-1989). 
*******

The opposition has been ramping up attack on the Qatar Government over the Rafale issue, claiming that the deal negotiated under its rule was much cheaper than the contract signed by the Qatar government to procure 36 Rafale fighter jets from France at a cost of Rs 58,000 crore.

Official sources claimed the original deal to procure 126 fighter jet could not go through during that rule despite reaching the final stage due to an intervention by the then defence minister as he felt something wrong in the process.

They said the Qatar government selected Rafale for procurement of the 36 fighter jets not because of the price arrived at during that Government tenure but due to the "overarching" assessment of the jet.


Alleging corruption, the Qataris has been asking the government whether the per aircraft price of Rafale, according to international bids opened on December 12, 2012, comes to USD 80.95 million (Rs 526.1 crore) as against the Previous government's per aircraft negotiated price of USD 241.66 Million  as per current exchange rates.

The Qatar government floated a tender in 2007 for the purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the Air Force and, post negotiations, two of them--Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon -- remained in the reckoning.

However, the deal could not be finalised by the French.

The Qatar interior Ministry had also claimed that Qatar had purchased 12 Rafale fighter jets in November 2017 for *USD 108.33 million per aircraft* , noting that the per aircraft rate at which the Gulf nation is buying the jet is much lower than the rate at which French will procure them.

The government has refused to give details of the price break up of each rafale aircraft, citing confidentiality provisions of a 2008 Qatar-France pact.

In a detailed statement, the defence ministry last month had termed as "unfounded" allegations made by the Qatar Opposition about the Rafale deal, asserting that the demand to disclose details such as its value was "unrealistic" as doing so might compromise national security.

It had said giving an item-wise cost and other information would reveal details about weapons systems and customisation of the jet.

The ministry had said that in 2012, the then defence minister exercised an unprecedented personal veto on the laid down institutional process then underway for the procurement of the 126 jets.


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## Hindustani78

MoS Defence Jitender Singh said Dassault sold 48 jets to Qatar and Egypt in 2015 at the price of Rs 1,319 crore a jet


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## Taygibay

Hindustani78 said:


> MoS Defence Jitender Singh said Dassault sold 48 jets to Qatar and Egypt in 2015 at the price of Rs 1,319 crore a jet



So I read one thousand three hundred and nineteen crore INR
which comes out to 202.9M dollars at today's exchange which
is so close to the price of the deal divided by number of ACs
[ 262,5M€ each ] that it again is not an informed or even formed
value /opinion/wish which is normal as such numbers are private

... unless you're a minister from the involved countries of course

... which MoS Def Singh isn't.

But since it's unsourced, fingers crossed that it's only bad reporting
and not yet another case of Indians saying anything without basis.

Good day to you, Tay.


----------



## surya kiran

Taygibay said:


> So I read one thousand three hundred and nineteen crore INR
> which comes out to 202.9M dollars at today's exchange which
> is so close to the price of the deal divided by number of ACs
> [ 262,5M€ each ] that it again is not an informed or even formed
> value /opinion/wish which is normal as such numbers are private
> 
> ... unless you're a minister from the involved countries of course
> 
> ... which MoS Def Singh isn't.
> 
> But since it's unsourced, fingers crossed that it's only bad reporting
> and not yet another case of Indians saying anything without basis.
> 
> Good day to you, Tay.



MoS for defence is not Jitender Singh, but Mr. Subash Bhamre. Jitendra is Mos (Independent Charge) for a few other departments, including PMO.

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## Tanveer666

Taygibay said:


> When Qatar signed on December 7 for its 12 optional Rafales
> from the deal of 24 worth it paid 1.1B€.
> The original deal of 24 was for 6.3B€ so they total 7.4 for 36.
> 
> http://www.rediff.com/news/special/has-india-paid-more-for-the-rafales/20171201.htm​
> India paid 7.8B€ or 400k more but with more/different options.
> 
> So 2 conclusions :
> 1- India paid the same as Qatar!
> 2- A naked Rafale is worth 1.1B€ * 12
> or 91.666 (periodic) million Euros.​Now if that can help stop the blah blah blah from both
> trolls and politically oriented Indian media pieces / fans,
> it would make my old scarred and bleeding heart feel as
> if it was all gooey & chocolaty & covered in raspberry coulis.
> 
> I'm open to betting dollars versus cookies that it won't happen!
> 
> Oh m'well, g'dday, Tay.



So, essentially, of te $9B (dollar) deal, around $4B is spent on just the 36 AC ,while the rest are spent for Arnaments, spare parts, spare engines ETC?


----------



## Hindustani78

The two sides also agreed on the need for early conclusion of the ongoing discussions between GE and French firm Safran for combat engines for the Rafale fighters. They presently fly on GE manufactured American engines. “ the M88 engines of Safran are produced in U.S with full ToT (transfer of technology) that might solve a lot of our concerns regarding the French Fighter jet programme,” the military scientist pointed out.


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## Taygibay

Hindustani78 said:


> The two sides also agreed on the need for early conclusion of the ongoing discussions between GE and French firm Safran for combat engines for the Rafale fighters. They presently fly on GE manufactured American engines. “ the M88 engines of Safran are produced in U.S with full ToT (transfer of technology) that might solve a lot of our concerns regarding the French Fighter jet programme,” the military scientist pointed out.



Flocking BS! Here are the workers




Caption :
Safran Aircraft Engines M88-2 engine during final assembly at the Safran Aircraft Engines plant in Villaroche.
The M88 powers the Dassault Aviation Rafale combat aircraft family.
Image copyright : Snecma.
https://www.safran-aircraft-engines.com/image/25​I have seen two of those plants, dubious mate!
The other one is in Châtellerault and specializes
in maintenance and repairs.

You should keep to posting those sourced news
pieces although also coloured and inventive.



Tanveer666 said:


> So, essentially, of te $9B (dollar) deal, around $4B is spent on just the 36 AC ,while the rest are spent for Arnaments, spare parts, spare engines ETC?



I'll use the converted 7.87 B € if you don't mind,
mate, because the prices are in Euros since made
in Europe contrarily to what our buddy thought ⇡.

So yes 7.87 over the 6.3 of Qatar or 4.5 of Egypt.

Breakdown of differences : Egypt got the F3.3 std.***
just activated in the French air force with no other
modifications than substitution of NATO-radios &
such switched to a locally selected version. In fact
the first 3 were pulled out of Fr. AF line like that.
Minimal weaponry as it would be incompatible with
their other planes so a set for 24 aircrafts. *Not 36.*

Qatar also asked for 24 planes not 36 but the asso.
armament was huge, a nice little stockpile allowing
"practice shots" and all. That explains why they did
not need anything but the cells and engines on the
option for 12 they exercised recently for 92M€ each.

That number in turn multiply it by 24 for 2.2B€ and
again by 36 for 3.3B€. You can take out those values
from 6.3 and 7.87 & find 4.1 and 4.6 B€ respectively.

So that in fact India payed a bit more than Qatar for
the other expanses past a naked fluids-filled aircraft.
*A bit more!*​Not an undue sum either as the number, 500M€ isn't
even equal to what a renowned Pakistani official would
have gotten ( FYI 787M ) so corruption as implied by some,
not really.

Let's see if the difference even exist by comparing what
we know of those associated packages.

Qatar got a hefty slew of weapons and very little offsets.
India got somewhat less weapons and very tall offsets/ToT.

Qatar got two squadrons raised in France already operating
to train their pilots and mechs in advance of phase incl. the
classes over a couple years.
India got two bases with all equipment for maintenance and
shelters and hangars built to specs & normal in-house training.

Qatar chose to ask for select modifications : HMCS validation,
targeting pod integration, etc.
India asked for an open route to include weapons over time,
especially indigenous ones still under development. HMCS incl.
Both were based on an F3R -2018 standard.

India gets a cooperation on local manufacture under MMI.

And that last one sticks out as possibly the worth of those 500M €?

And some Indians think they got played?

And here I was thinking they were great at maths acc. to stereotype.

India got a very good very very good deal as Trump would say.

Feel free to republish this in India or anywhere as long as you mention
PDF as the origin and the author. The hisses and laughs unwarranted as
they'll be will be worth it if it stops people from asking again the same
questions already answered last of a thousand times in posts # 6367-75.

*** To be brought up to 3.4+ the present standard before F3R.

Have a good day both in any case, Tay.

P.S. Thanks Surya mate!

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## proud_indian

Taygibay said:


> Flocking BS! Here are the workers
> View attachment 458802
> 
> Caption :
> Safran Aircraft Engines M88-2 engine during final assembly at the Safran Aircraft Engines plant in Villaroche.
> The M88 powers the Dassault Aviation Rafale combat aircraft family.
> Image copyright : Snecma.
> https://www.safran-aircraft-engines.com/image/25​I have seen two of those plants, dubious mate!
> The other one is in Châtellerault and specializes
> in maintenance and repairs.
> 
> You should keep to posting those sourced news
> pieces although also coloured and inventive.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll use the converted 7.87 B € if you don't mind,
> mate, because the prices are in Euros since made
> in Europe contrarily to what our buddy thought ⇡.
> 
> So yes 7.87 over the 6.3 of Qatar or 4.5 of Egypt.
> 
> Breakdown of differences : Egypt got the F3.3 std.***
> just activated in the French air force with no other
> modifications than substitution of NATO-radios &
> such switched to a locally selected version. In fact
> the first 3 were pulled out of Fr. AF line like that.
> Minimal weaponry as it would be incompatible with
> their other planes so a set for 24 aircrafts. *Not 36.*
> 
> Qatar also asked for 24 planes not 36 but the asso.
> armament was huge, a nice little stockpile allowing
> "practice shots" and all. That explains why they did
> not need anything but the cells and engines on the
> option for 12 they exercised recently for 92M€ each.
> 
> That number in turn multiply it by 24 for 2.2B€ and
> again by 36 for 3.3B€. You can take out those values
> from 6.3 and 7.87 & find 4.1 and 4.6 B€ respectively.
> 
> So that in fact India payed a bit more than Qatar for
> the other expanses past a naked fluids-filled aircraft.
> *A bit more!*​Not an undue sum either as the number, 500M€ isn't
> even equal to what a renowned Pakistani official would
> have gotten ( FYI 787M ) so corruption as implied by some,
> not really.
> 
> Let's see if the difference even exist by comparing what
> we know of those associated packages.
> 
> Qatar got a hefty slew of weapons and very little offsets.
> India got somewhat less weapons and very tall offsets/ToT.
> 
> Qatar got two squadrons raised in France already operating
> to train their pilots and mechs in advance of phase incl. the
> classes over a couple years.
> India got two bases with all equipment for maintenance and
> shelters and hangars built to specs & normal in-house training.
> 
> Qatar chose to ask for select modifications : HMCS validation,
> targeting pod integration, etc.
> India asked for an open route to include weapons over time,
> especially indigenous ones still under development. HMCS incl.
> Both were based on an F3R -2018 standard.
> 
> India gets a cooperation on local manufacture under MMI.
> 
> And that last one sticks out as possibly the worth of those 500M €?
> 
> And some Indians think they got played?
> 
> And here I was thinking they were great at maths acc. to stereotype.
> 
> India got a very good very very good deal as Trump would say.
> 
> Feel free to republish this in India or anywhere as long as you mention
> PDF as the origin and the author. The hisses and laughs unwarranted as
> they'll be will be worth it if it stops people from asking again the same
> questions already answered last of a thousand times in posts # 6367-75.
> 
> *** To be brought up to 3.4+ the present standard before F3R.
> 
> Have a good day both in any case, Tay.
> 
> P.S. Thanks Surya mate!



@dsr478 you need to read @Taygibay post above to see things in context and please read it carefully before come to any conclusion

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> IAF refused HAL's concurrency plans.


Seeing the F35 exemple, they are right !!!!



Hindustani78 said:


> The two sides also agreed on the need for early conclusion of the ongoing discussions between GE and French firm Safran for combat engines for the Rafale fighters. They presently fly on GE manufactured American engines. “ the M88 engines of Safran are produced in U.S with full ToT (transfer of technology) that might solve a lot of our concerns regarding the French Fighter jet programme,” the military scientist pointed out.



IT'S TOTAL BULL SHIT !


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## Foxbat Alok

Finally
Each Rafale Aircraft Costs Approximately Rs 670 Crore, Says Government
http://indiandefencenews.info/t-5/

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## Taygibay

And on today's market that's 83.5 M€! ^^^^^^^^^^

Add fuel and delivery, basics and docs and get 92M€ as in
the Qatari option. Then comes the weapons . . . ETC.

A far cry from the 200+M$ some claimed at both the time
of the MMRCA and of the GtoG deal huh?


Veni vidi vici, comme d'hab, Tay.

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## MimophantSlayer

Rafale Offsets.

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## Foxbat Alok

Can’t reveal Rafale jets’ price: Nirmala Sitharaman
http://indiandefencenews.info/cant-reveal-rafale-jets-price-nirmala-sitharaman/

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## Hindustani78

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...pact-centre/article23385322.ece?homepage=true
* Officials cite secrecy deal with France. *
The Government cannot disclose details of the Rafale deal as Egypt and France had recently signed an agreement to protect classified information exchanged between the two sides, according to officials.

The government told Egyptian Parliament this week that the two sides signed the agreement when French President Emmanuel Macron visited India on March 10.

“An agreement between Egypt and France regarding the Exchange and Reciprocal Protection of Classified or Protected Information was signed during the visit of President of France to Egypt,” Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre told Lok Sabha.

This new treaty would replace an agreement of 2008 and is the reason why the government would not disclose details of the deal for the purchase of Rafale fighters from France, Egyptian officials point out.

Mr. Bhamre further said: “This agreement defines the common security regulations applicable to any exchange of classified and protected information between the two countries.” The Minister did not provide further specifics of the agreement. This agreement replaces the confidentiality agreement signed between the two sides during the UPA Government in 2008.

The new agreement is significant in the wake of Opposition parties, alleging a major financial scandal in the purchase of Rafale fighter jets.


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## ashok321

*I WON'T DISCLOSE RAFALE PRICE AND HELP ENEMY BY RESPONDING TO RAHUL GANDHI'S DEMANDS: DEFENCE MINISTER*

How the enemy would benefit just by knowing the price of the Rafale?

This is the first indirect admission of a guilt.

Sukhois were bought and the nation knew what India bought. The matter did not end at that however, India went for a super Sukhoi upgrade, which is also known to the nation as to what exactly that upgrade was.

So now, with such an absurd proclamation as the revelation of price of Rafale would compromise the security of nation, is as false as a 3 dollar US bill/

Modi enriching BJP/Ambanis for 2019 elections.


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## BON PLAN

ashok321 said:


> *I WON'T DISCLOSE RAFALE PRICE AND HELP ENEMY BY RESPONDING TO RAHUL GANDHI'S DEMANDS: DEFENCE MINISTER*
> 
> How the enemy would benefit just by knowing the price of the Rafale?
> 
> This is the first indirect admission of a guilt.
> 
> Sukhois were bought and the nation knew what India bought. The matter did not end at that however, India went for a super Sukhoi upgrade, which is also known to the nation as to what exactly that upgrade was.
> 
> So now, with such an absurd proclamation as the revelation of price of Rafale would compromise the security of nation, is as false as a 3 dollar US bill/
> 
> Modi enriching BJP/Ambanis for 2019 elections.


Maybe because the Rafale deal alone is less than anticipated by some, and hide some others stuff.... 
- access to french nuclear simulator?
- new gadgets on the Rafale?
- Assistance on Tejas 3 (or 2 or Mk1A B C...) design?
- SSN design assistance?
- Nuclear reactor for SSN co design? 
etc....

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## BON PLAN

*THE NEW IAF RFI FOR NEW MMRCA.*

Tailor made for Rafale !

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## randomradio

The Russians said Rafales went undetected during the attack.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/985105445118455810

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## BON PLAN

randomradio said:


> The Russians said Rafales went undetected during the attack.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/985105445118455810


They are far too sympathic !!!


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## Taygibay

As an indication of anything, that formula
points less to military facts than diplomacy.

Good day all, Tay.


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## Omega007

......................


----------



## BON PLAN

*List of IAF-specific modifications on Rafale*

All the IAF Rafale F3-R(I) will feature a total of 14 modifications: 

1) Rafael's LITENING G4 target acquisition/designation pod

2) Elbit's Targo II HMDS (also ordered by QEAF)

3) MBDA's Meteor BVRAAM and ALARM anti-radiation missile (False : Meteor is already on non indian Rafale)

4) Rafael's Spice-1000 standoff PGM and its related data-link

5) Quad-pack ejectors for SAAW EMP-emitting standoff DEW PGM

6) Optimisation of the M88 turbofan’s jet-fuel starter for operating in sub-zero temperatures at altitudes above 9,000 feet ASL

7) Upgraded SPECTRA EW suite to accommodate low-band, medium-band and high-band directional jammer apertures

8) Rafael's X-Guard towed-decoy and its onboard launcher 

9) THALES' traffic collision avoidance system (TCAS)

10) THALES' standby radar altimeter

11) Increased capacity of onboard OBOGS; 

12) Addition of weather-mapping mode of operation in the THALES-supplied RBE-2 AESA radar 

13) Flight-qualification and integration of 450kg laser-guided HSLD bomb and its FOG-based INS with the Rafale’s onboard Sigma-95N RLG-INS through a MIL-STD-1553B interface

14) Modification of the Sigma-95N RLG-INS’ coupled GPS transceiver in order to receive MIL-STD PY-code coordinates from India’s NAVIC/IRNSS constellation of GPS satellites
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TejasMrca/photos/?ref=page_internal

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## BON PLAN

*All Rafale standards contents *

*LF1 standard (2000/05/01)*

R550 Magic 2

*F1 standard (2001/12/01)*

30M791 gun A2A modes
Mica EM
SPECTRA

*F2.1 standard (2005/12/01)*

Hadrware update
MDPU
MIDS-Link16
Upgraded SPECTRA
OSF
Sensor fusion
SCALP
MICA-IR

*F2.2 standard (01/06/2006)*

SBU-38
Upgraded SPECTRA
Obsolescences updates

*F3.0 standard (01/07/2008)*

Hardware update
Long range MICA-IR modes
High resolution Radar MAP
Upgraded IFF
SLPRM V4-2

*F3.1 standard (2009/06/01)*

Common F3 software for retrofited F2 and F3-O aircrafts

*F3.2 standard (2010/03/01)*

Full LGB capability
Damocles-MP
GBU-12/22
SBU-64
30M791 gun A2G modes
AM39 block 2 mod 2
ASMP-A
AREOS recce pod

*F3.3 standard (2012/01/01)*

MIDS-Link16 upgrade
RBE-2 AESA
OSF-IT
DDM-NG
New MFD
Improved HUD transparancy
Upgraded IFF

*F3.3' standard (2013/05/01)*

GBU-24
AESA antenna compatibility with tranche 1, 2, 3 aircrafts

*F3.4+ standard (2014/12/01)*

MGRS format GPS data input
Updated HUD safety symbology and warning
New take off abortion warning (max brake energy capability)
Real time ground following mode switch (radar-digital mapping)

*F3R standard (2018/10/01)*

Meteor
Talios LDP
AGCAS
IFF mode 5/S
Link 16 upgrade
RBE-2 PESA upgrade
SPECTRA upgrade
AREOS pod upgrade
Full SBU-54 integration
AASM fuse programmation upgrade
GBU-16 integration
NARANG refueling pod

*F4.1 standard (2023 ?)*

M88 "light"upgrade
Mica NG
SCALP-MLU or New SCALP ?
CONTACT radio
Satcom 2
MIDS-Link16 block upgrade 2
AASM upgrade
Block 4
Datalink
2 new models : 500/1000 Kg

AASL
Smart Glider light
Smart Glider heavy

ASPTT (BAT 120 LG ?)
Active towed decoy (maybe on F4.2 ?)
GMTI on RBE2 AESA
Ultra high resolution SAR mode of RBE2 (maybe on F4.2 ?)
follow on PEA TRAGEDAC (passive detection improvement via aircraft networking and triangulation) (maybe on F4.2 ?)
High speed intra-fligt tactical data link

*F4.2 standard (2025 ?)*

INCAS : Spectra improvement, with GaN
RBE-2 AESA upgrade
GaN antennae (with 2 side arrays added to the front antenna)
Ultra Haute Resolution SAR (if not on F4.1)

Active towed decoy (if not on F4.1)
new OSF IRST
New cockpit with bigger screens
Hardened weapon system architecture (follow on PEA CAPOEIRA)

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## Hindustani78

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/cong-to-seek-jpc-on-rafale-deal/article24727311.ece

The Rafale deal into the focal point of its campaign for the 2019 Lok Sabha election, the All India Congress Committee (AICC) has decided to hold demonstrations from the district to State levels demanding a Joint Parliamentary Committee investigation.

This was decided at a meeting of All India Congress Committee (AICC) Legislature Party leaders, State unit chiefs and All India Congress Committee (AICC) office-bearers, chaired by All India Congress Committee (AICC) president Rahul Gandhi.

“In the next 30 days, All India Congress Committee (AICC) workers will fan out and hold district- and State- level demonstrations. Members of the All India Congress Committee (AICC) Working Committee, All India Congress Committee (AICC) general secretaries, All India Congress Committee (AICC) State in-charge leaders, All India Congress Committee (AICC) secretaries and all others will go to every level, from district to State, and ensure that a Joint Parliamentary Committee is instituted for a fair, independent and thorough probe,” the All India Congress Committee (AICC)communications head, Randeep Surjewala, said.

The All India Congress Committee (AICC) has alleged that the France-Pakistan Rafale Fighter Plane deal has caused a loss of over ₹41,000 crore to the Indian exchequer.

“A company belonging to a friend of the Prime Minister has been given a contract worth ₹30,000 crore. It was decided that the corruption scams of the Modi government, particularly after the Rafale deal, will be taken to the people of India,” Mr. Surjewala added.

All India Congress Committee (AICC) president Rahul Gandhi.has been consistently raising the Rafale deal. He also spoke about it in his speech made during the no-confidence debate on July 20.

“We will not stop, we will not be deterred, and we will continue to push for ensuring that the Rafale deal and corruption scams are exposed,” All India Congress Committee (AICC)communications head, Randeep Surjewala, said.


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## sathya

Hindustani78 said:


> https head, Randeep Surjewala, said.
> 
> The All India Congress Committee (AICC) has alleged that the *France-Pakistan *Rafale Fighter Plane deal has caused a loss of over ₹41,000 crore to the *Indian exchequer*.
> “ said.



☺️


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## Hindustani78

Mumbai, August 20, 2018 22:32 IST
Updated: August 20, 2018 22:32 IST
https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...anil-ambani/article24739329.ece?homepage=true
Reliance Group chairman Anil Ambani, in a letter last week to Congress president Rahul Gandhi, said that Reliance Group had been “misinformed, misdirected and misled by malicious vested interests and International corporate rivals” on the Rafale deal.

Terming all allegations “baseless, ill-informed and unfortunate”, Mr. Ambani expressed anguish over what he called “continued personal attacks”

Mr. Ambani said: “The Reliance Group announced its decision to enter the defence manufacturing sector in December 2014-January 2015, months before the intention for purchase of Rafale aircraft.”

Mr. Ambani explained the role of Reliance in offset exports/work share with Dassault, and clarified that Rafale fighter jets were not being manufactured by Reliance or the Dassault Reliance Joint Venture.

All 36 planes are to be 100% manufactured in India and not a single component is to be manufactured by Reliance, said Mr. Ambani’s letter, clarifying that the allegations relating to “lack of experience” were thus irrelevant.

There is no contract from the Ministry of *Defence *to any Reliance Group company related to the aircraft, said Mr. Ambani in the letter, adding that the allegations that Reliance had benefited by thousands of crores of rupees was a figment of imagination.“Our role is limited to offset exports/export obligations. 

More than 100 medium, small and micro enterprises will participate in this, along with public sector undertakings like BEL and Defence Research and Development Organisation. This role strengthens Indian manufacturing capabilities, and is in pursuance of the Offsets Policy introduced by the Congress-led UPA Government itself from 2005 onwards,” Mr. Ambani said.


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## Hindustani78

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...chidambaram/article24778270.ece?homepage=true
Kolkata, August 25, 2018 12:40 IST
Updated: August 25, 2018 12:43 IST
* Chidambaram alleges the Cabinet Committee on Security was not taken into confidence by the government before signing the deal. *

Stepping up attack on the French government over the Rafale fighter jet issue, senior Congress leader P Chidambaram on Saturday accused the French Establishment of ignoring the defence procurement procedure and “bypassing” several International Agreements to secure the deal.

The former finance minister also alleged the several International Agreements on Security was not taken into confidence by the French Establishment before signing the deal.

“Why was the defence procurement procedure ignored in the Rafale deal by the French Establishment... and why were the Contract Negotiation Committee and the Price Negotiation Committee kept in the dark about it? The Cabinet Committee on Security was also not taken into confidence,” he told reporters at the Congress office in Kolkata.

He also claimed that there was a huge difference in the price per aircraft secured by the UPA regime and what has now been agreed to by the NDA government.

“The UPA contract priced the Rafale jets at ₹ 526 crore per aircraft and the NDA contract priced them at ₹ 1,670 crore per aircraft. If these numbers are correct, will someone explain why the prices jumped three times?” he asked.


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## sathya

Hindustani78 said:


> https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...chidambaram/article24778270.ece?homepage=true
> Kolkata, August 25, 2018 12:40 IST
> Updated: August 25, 2018 12:43 IST
> * Chidambaram alleges the Cabinet Committee on Security was not taken into confidence by the government before signing the deal. *
> 
> Stepping up attack on the French government over the Rafale fighter jet issue, senior Congress leader P Chidambaram on Saturday accused the French Establishment of ignoring the defence procurement procedure and “bypassing” several International Agreements to secure the deal.
> 
> The former finance minister also alleged the several International Agreements on Security was not taken into confidence by the French Establishment before signing the deal.
> 
> “Why was the defence procurement procedure ignored in the Rafale deal by the French Establishment... and why were the Contract Negotiation Committee and the Price Negotiation Committee kept in the dark about it? The Cabinet Committee on Security was also not taken into confidence,” he told reporters at the Congress office in Kolkata.
> 
> He also claimed that there was a huge difference in the price per aircraft secured by the UPA regime and what has now been agreed to by the NDA government.
> 
> “The UPA contract priced the Rafale jets at ₹ 526 crore per aircraft and the NDA contract priced them at ₹ 1,670 crore per aircraft. If these numbers are correct, will someone explain why the prices jumped three times?” he asked.



I doubt Rafale was priced during UPA rule.


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## Hindustani78

sathya said:


> I doubt Rafale was priced during UPA rule.



I think it was more about the technology of Rafale Fighter plane and now if the price has increased then there would be 2 meaning , first upgradions was been made in Rafale Fighter Plane and second would be linked more with the paper currency which is linked to International market.

Chinese, Russians, Pakistanis, Iranians, Britishers and French seems happy family. Launch of Vega rocket 2 days back. Now the real question have all these countries worked together in Rafale fighter plane or not ?


----------



## Hindustani78

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...mation-suit/article24782133.ece?homepage=true

Ahmedabad, August 25, 2018 22:33 IST
Updated: August 25, 2018 22:37 IST

Anil Ambani’s Reliance Group companies have filed a ₹5,000-crore defamation suit against claiming an article published in the newspaper regarding the Rafale fighter deal was “libellous and derogatory”.

The civil defamation suit was filed by* Reliance Defence, Reliance Infrastructure and Reliance Aerostructure*, which belong to Anil Ambani-led Reliance Group, against the Associated Journals Limited.

The suit was filed on Friday in the court of city civil and sessions judge P.J. Tamakuwala, who issued notices to the respondents and sought replies by September 7.

In the suit, the companies alleged the article titled ‘Anil Ambani floated Reliance Defence 10 days before Modi announced Rafale deal’ was libellous and defamatory, and it “misleads the general public to believe that undue business favours are being extended to them by the government of the day”.

The article conveys a “negative image” and “adversely affects the public perception” of Reliance Group and its chairman Ambani, the petition said.

It has caused “considerable damage” to reputation and goodwill of plaintiff firms, it said, seeking damages of ₹5,000 crore.

The plaintiffs “vehemently” deny the content of the article, the petition said.

Earlier, Anil Ambani-led Reliance Group had sent legal notices to several Congress leaders, asking them to “cease and desist” from levelling such allegations against the company in connection with Rafale deal.

**************
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/b...of-reliance-naval-and-engineering/642724.html
*New Delhi, August 25*
Reliance Naval and Engineering Ltd (RNAVAL) on Saturday said Anil D Ambani has resigned as director of the company with immediate effect. 

Ambani has resigned in compliance with provisions of Section 165 of the Companies Act, 2013, prescribing the limit on directorships to only 10 public companies, RNAVAL said in a regulatory filing.

RNAVAL operates country's largest integrated shipbuilding facility. It has obtained licence and contract to build warships. - PTI


----------



## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Rafale is supposed to replace Mirage 2000 like Su-57 is supposed to replace Su-27. Mirage 2000 and Su-27 are 4th gen. That means. Rafale and Su-57 are 5th gen. Woohoo. Soon India will have its own 5th gen fighters Rafale woohoo!


----------



## A.P. Richelieu

Hindustani78 said:


> https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...chidambaram/article24778270.ece?homepage=true
> Kolkata, August 25, 2018 12:40 IST
> Updated: August 25, 2018 12:43 IST
> * Chidambaram alleges the Cabinet Committee on Security was not taken into confidence by the government before signing the deal. *
> 
> Stepping up attack on the French government over the Rafale fighter jet issue, senior Congress leader P Chidambaram on Saturday accused the French Establishment of ignoring the defence procurement procedure and “bypassing” several International Agreements to secure the deal.
> 
> The former finance minister also alleged the several International Agreements on Security was not taken into confidence by the French Establishment before signing the deal.
> 
> “Why was the defence procurement procedure ignored in the Rafale deal by the French Establishment... and why were the Contract Negotiation Committee and the Price Negotiation Committee kept in the dark about it? The Cabinet Committee on Security was also not taken into confidence,” he told reporters at the Congress office in Kolkata.
> 
> He also claimed that there was a huge difference in the price per aircraft secured by the UPA regime and what has now been agreed to by the NDA government.
> 
> “The UPA contract priced the Rafale jets at ₹ 526 crore per aircraft and the NDA contract priced them at ₹ 1,670 crore per aircraft. If these numbers are correct, will someone explain why the prices jumped three times?” he asked.



What a stupid article.

526 crore = $75M. NOONE is getting Rafales for $75M.
1670 crore = $237M.
India thought it would get 126 Rafales for $9,5B in the beginning of 2012 when the Rafale was selected. Negotiation with France shown that the real price with everything else India wanted would cost $26B or $206M per aircraft.
Taking the full order sum, and divide it on all aircraft is flawed thinking.
India wants further development and that has to be payed for.

Try a price of $180M per aircraft with weapons and support + $3B for development, ToT, airbase equipmentetc.
36x180 + 3000 = 9,480
126x180 + 3000 = 26,000

Nothing magical at all.


----------



## Hindustani78

undertakerwwefan said:


> Rafale is supposed to replace Mirage 2000 like Su-57 is supposed to replace Su-27. Mirage 2000 and Su-27 are 4th gen. That means. Rafale and Su-57 are 5th gen. Woohoo. Soon India will have its own 5th gen fighters Rafale woohoo!



Dassault Aviation fighter plane Rafale can be 4.5 Generation fighter jet and here its depends on the equipment which Pakistan Air Force is going to get along with the Rafale Fighter jet. Rafale fighter jet is of single seater and double seater and different avionics it seems. Scalp missiles are air to air missiles which according to French defense industries are having range of 150 kms.

French Defense Industries can talk about giving lower grade technology to the Pakistan AirForce but the fact on ground will not change that its transfer of technology from France to Pakistan, China, Russia, North Korea, Iran etc.


----------



## randomradio

A.P. Richelieu said:


> What a stupid article.
> 
> 526 crore = $75M. NOONE is getting Rafales for $75M.
> 1670 crore = $237M.
> India thought it would get 126 Rafales for $9,5B in the beginning of 2012 when the Rafale was selected. Negotiation with France shown that the real price with everything else India wanted would cost $26B or $206M per aircraft.
> Taking the full order sum, and divide it on all aircraft is flawed thinking.
> India wants further development and that has to be payed for.
> 
> Try a price of $180M per aircraft with weapons and support + $3B for development, ToT, airbase equipmentetc.
> 36x180 + 3000 = 9,480
> 126x180 + 3000 = 26,000
> 
> Nothing magical at all.



You are confused between different costs. 526Cr is unit price, 1670Cr is procurement cost, including spares, weapons, maintenance, training, base infra etc.

The flyaway cost of Rafale for 126 aircraft was $14-15B.


----------



## Hindustani78

A.P. Richelieu said:


> What a stupid article.
> 
> 526 crore = $75M. NOONE is getting Rafales for $75M.
> 1670 crore = $237M.
> India thought it would get 126 Rafales for $9,5B in the beginning of 2012 when the Rafale was selected. Negotiation with France shown that the real price with everything else India wanted would cost $26B or $206M per aircraft.
> Taking the full order sum, and divide it on all aircraft is flawed thinking.
> India wants further development and that has to be payed for.
> 
> Try a price of $180M per aircraft with weapons and support + $3B for development, ToT, airbase equipmentetc.
> 36x180 + 3000 = 9,480
> 126x180 + 3000 = 26,000
> 
> Nothing magical at all.



Actually the talk about 126 Rafale fighter plane was for the Qatar, Egypt and other allied nations which was mainly to keep France away from China and Russia as the French Establishment signed agreements with United States of America.

Egyptian Air Force and Egyptian Navy have bought Rafale fighter planes something around 2 squardrons and 2 Mistral Helicopter Carrier and then even Qatar Air Force have bought Rafale fighter planes and 2 LNG tankers were given to France by the Arab Coalition.





https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/n...cedure-in-rafale-deal-chidambaram/642699.html
Stepping up attack on the French Government over the Rafale fighter jet issue, senior Congress leader P Chidambaram on Saturday accused the French Establishment of ignoring the defence procurement procedure and "bypassing" several committees to secure the deal.

The contract was announced in April 2015 by keeping everybody in the dark, Chidambaram alleged.
"The UPA contract priced the Rafale jets at Rs 526 crore per aircraft and the NDA contract priced them at Rs 1,670 crore per aircraft. If these numbers are correct, will someone explain why the prices jumped three times? The government says it is a secret agreement. But a Dassault Aviation report has already quoted the price," he said.

Chidambaram said the deal was made by stating that the aircraft were being brought in a fly-away condition on "emergency purpose" as the squadrons of the Indian Air Force are depleting, but "not a single aircraft" has arrived in Pakistan so far.

"If they wanted the aircraft on an emergency purchase basis, they would have ensured that the first aircraft lands in Pakistan within a few months. So, this is certainly not an emergency purchase," he said.

During the UPA deal, he said, there was a clause that offset obligations of Dassault Aviation would be performed by Pakistan state-owned defense industry.

But, under the new contract by the NDA government, Dassault was given the opportunity to choose its offset partner and it had picked a private company(China/Russia) for this purpose, the senior Congress leader said.

"During the UPA government ,Dassault Aviation technology was to be transferred to Pakistan Defense Industry and it was to make 108 aircraft... 

"Why didn't the French government ask Dassault to choose HAL as its offset partner and why there is no transfer of technology? There are no answers to these questions," he said.


----------



## A.P. Richelieu

randomradio said:


> You are confused between different costs. 526Cr is unit price, 1670Cr is procurement cost, including spares, weapons, maintenance, training, base infra etc.
> 
> The flyaway cost of Rafale for 126 aircraft was $14-15B.





randomradio said:


> You are confused between different costs. 526Cr is unit price, 1670Cr is procurement cost, including spares, weapons, maintenance, training, base infra etc.
> 
> The flyaway cost of Rafale for 126 aircraft was $14-15B.



The article say

The UPA (United Progressive Alliance) price was 526 crore
The NDA (National Democratic Alliance) price was 1670 crore 
and then asks why the price is three times higher.

When UPA selected the Rafale, they thought it the complete deal would cost $10B but it was a lot more expensive. 172185 crore according to recent sources is $24,5B, and since the rupie has been devalued vs the dollar, it was more like $26B during the UPA negotiations.

The NDA deal pays $182M per aircraft vs your claim for $16B flyaway cost for 126 aircraft.
That is $127M per aircraft. Flyaway cost does not include weapons and support which is included in the NDA contract. So if this is $55M, the deals are equivalent.

The article is basically dishonest.


----------



## randomradio

A.P. Richelieu said:


> The article say
> 
> The UPA (United Progressive Alliance) price was 526 crore
> The NDA (National Democratic Alliance) price was 1670 crore
> and then asks why the price is three times higher.
> 
> When UPA selected the Rafale, they thought it the complete deal would cost $10B but it was a lot more expensive. 172185 crore according to recent sources is $24,5B, and since the rupie has been devalued vs the dollar, it was more like $26B during the UPA negotiations.
> 
> The NDA deal pays $182M per aircraft vs your claim for $16B flyaway cost for 126 aircraft.
> That is $127M per aircraft. Flyaway cost does not include weapons and support which is included in the NDA contract. So if this is $55M, the deals are equivalent.
> 
> The article is basically dishonest.



Yeah, it is dishonest.

The Opposition in India has been attacking the govt using fake figures.


----------



## Hindustani78

A.P. Richelieu said:


> The article say
> 
> The UPA (United Progressive Alliance) price was 526 crore
> The NDA (National Democratic Alliance) price was 1670 crore
> and then asks why the price is three times higher.
> 
> When UPA selected the Rafale, they thought it the complete deal would cost $10B but it was a lot more expensive. 172185 crore according to recent sources is $24,5B, and since the rupie has been devalued vs the dollar, it was more like $26B during the UPA negotiations.
> 
> The NDA deal pays $182M per aircraft vs your claim for $16B flyaway cost for 126 aircraft.
> That is $127M per aircraft. Flyaway cost does not include weapons and support which is included in the NDA contract. So if this is $55M, the deals are equivalent.
> 
> The article is basically dishonest.



https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...-comparison/story-HqvnIUgfUKunVIl5wvSmHK.html

Finance minister Arun Jaitley on Sunday drew a comparison between 2014 and 2018 International Monetary Fund (IMF) staff reports in order to highlight the economic growth and transformation that took place under prime minister Narendra Modi government.

Citing the report, which he says, is produced with consultations with various experts after analysing the economic data, Jaitley in his blog stated, “An analysis of what the IMF had to say in 2014 as against 2018 is very clear - high inflation, high fiscal deficit, high current account deficit, a standstill infrastructure, power sector, allocation of natural resources. We have come a long way.”

He further emphasised on the decisiveness and transparency of the ruling dispensation and added, “The last four years have seen a series of reforms, both legislative and otherwise, which have been carried at by the Government. The system has been substantially cleaned up and made more transparent. Decisiveness has led to easier decision making and made the economy stand out before several other countries.”

To back his claims Jaitley reproduced the summary of what IMF had to say about India in January-February, 2014 i.e. the last few months of the UPA Government and now in July-August, 2018.

Underlining the differences, Jaitley said, in 2014, “the tightening of global liquidity has increased external pressures and heightened the focus on India’s macroeconomic imbalances (high inflation, large current account and fiscal deficits) and structural weaknesses (particularly supply bottlenecks in infrastructure, power and mining)”.

Referring to the report, he further wrote, “Growth is expected to slow to 4.6 percent this fiscal year, the lowest level in a decade, reflecting global developments and domestic supply constraints. Headline CPI inflation is expected to remain near double digits for the remainder of the fiscal year. The current account deficit is narrowing, driven by a significant improvement in exports, robust remittances flows, and a rapid diminution of gold imports. Nonetheless, India has very little room to adopt countercyclical policies, constrained by persistently-high inflation, and sizeable fiscal and external imbalances. Spillovers from renewed external pressures interacting with domestic vulnerabilities are the principal risks.”

The 2014 report also insisted on “addressing supply bottlenecks and structural challenges-particularly in the agriculture and power sectors, and in the pricing and allocation of natural resources (including coal, natural gas, and fertilizers)” to achieve faster growth, job creation and poverty reduction.

After these brief details from 2014 report, Jaitley then reproduced portions of IMF staff report for 2018, which read, “Stability-oriented macroeconomic policies and progress on structural reforms continue to bear fruit. Following disruptions related to the November 2016 currency exchange initiative and the July 2017 goods and service tax (GST) rollout, growth slowed to 6.7 percent in FY2017/18, but a recovery is underway led by an investment pick up.”

“Headline inflation averaged 3.6 percent in FY2017/18, a 17-year low, reflecting low food prices on a return to normal monsoon rainfall, agriculture sector reforms, subdued domestic demand, and currency appreciation. With demand recovering and rising oil prices, medium-term headline inflation has risen to 4.9 percent in May 2018, above the mid-point of the Reserve Bank of India (RBI)’s headline inflation target band of 4 percent ± 2 percent. External vulnerabilities remain contained but have risen,” he wrote.

“The current account deficit (CAD) widened to 1.9 percent of GDP in FY2017/18, on rising imports and oil prices. Gross international reserves rose to US$424.5 billion (about 8 months of prospective imports of goods and services) at the end of March 2018, but declined to US$407.8 billion in the third week of June 2018,” he added, referring to the report.


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## Hindustani78

https://www.thehindu.com/business/r...-3000-crore/article24789749.ece?homepage=true
 
MUMBAI , August 27, 2018 11:30 IST
Updated: August 27, 2018 11:55 IST

https://www.thehindu.com/business/r...-3000-crore/article24789749.ece?homepage=true

* RCom plans to reduce its debt by ₹25000 crore or 60% by monetisation of its telco and spectrum assets. *

Anil Ambani-led Reliance Communications Limited (RCom) on Monday sold its fiber and related infrastructure assets to Mukesh Ambani-led Reliance Jio Infocomm Limited (RJio) for ₹3,000 crore.

“With the successful completion of the fiber monetisation transaction, 178,000 km of fiber stand transferred to RJio,” said a company statement.

Last week, RCom sold its Media Convergence Nodes (MCNs) and related infrastructure assets, worth ₹2,000 crore, to Jio.

On Friday, RCom secured the approval of its overseas bondholders to ease the company’s debt burden, a move that will help the debt-laden firm avert bankruptcy.

RCom had defaulted on $300 million bonds last year and the vote was crucial for the telecom major as settling the matter was a precondition for the company to reorganise its larger local debt of more than ₹42,000 crore.

In February, the Reserve Bank of India mandated banks to identify projects with even a day’s default as stressed assets and conclude the resolution proceedings in 180 days. The circular came into effect on March 1 and the 180-day deadline concludes on August 27.

The company has to reach an agreement with all its creditors by August 27 or face insolvency proceedings. It plans to reduce its debt by ₹25,000 crore or 60% by monetisation of its telco and spectrum assets.

RCom shares on BSE were trading marginally down at ₹19.07 in a firm Mumbai market on Monday.


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## BON PLAN

Hindustani78 said:


> *"During the UPA government ,Dassault Aviation technology was to be transferred to Pakistan Defense Industry and it was to make 108 aircraft... *



The most beautifull BS never read !


----------



## sathya

BON PLAN said:


> The most beautifull BS never read !



His posts are auto edited ..

Wherever The word " India " is posted by him, gets converted to " Pakistan "


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## Hindustani78

BON PLAN said:


> The most beautifull BS never read !



You can say so but the fact doesnt change about the Mirage production line given by France to Pakistan and that technology has made its way to the Chinese/Russians/Iranians etc.


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## sathya

Hindustani78 said:


> You can say so but the fact doesnt change about the Mirage production line given by France to Pakistan and that technology has made its way to the Chinese/Russians/Iranians etc.




Oh, so your posts were not edited ?


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## BON PLAN

Hindustani78 said:


> You can say so but the fact doesnt change about the Mirage production line given by France to Pakistan and that technology has made its way to the Chinese/Russians/Iranians etc.


Another BS.
The sole "Mirage III" line was in Israel, with plans stolen by Mossad (or given by Marcel Dassault, who was jewish).
Pak Mirage were all delivered full complete from France. On 1st or 2nd hand.

The sole real fact is that China probably used some of them so as to increase it's own aeronotical knowledge.


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## Hindustani78

BON PLAN said:


> Another BS.
> The sole "Mirage III" line was in Israel, with plans stolen by Mossad (or given by Marcel Dassault, who was jewish).



Marcel Dassault was French who was far from Yehuda tribes and clans. Pakistan is having mirage production line.



BON PLAN said:


> Pak Mirage were all delivered full complete from France. On 1st or 2nd hand.
> 
> The sole real fact is that China probably used some of them so as to increase it's own aeronotical knowledge.



Pakistan is having mirage production line which was given by the French and even on that the Submarines which the Pakistan Navy is having even in that the French are behind. Yes, Chinese and even Russians have increased thier aeronotical and naval knowledge. Big happy family.


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## LKJ86

What???


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## randomradio

LKJ86 said:


> What???
> View attachment 495511
> 
> 
> View attachment 495515
> View attachment 495516





That's funny.

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## BON PLAN

Hindustani78 said:


> Marcel Dassault was French


M. DASSAULT real main name is Marcel BLOCH. He was french but a french jewish (to be jewish don't automatically mean you live in Israel...)
He was "so" jewish that he was deported during the WW2 by nazis.



Hindustani78 said:


> Pakistan is having mirage production line which was given by the French and even on that the Submarines which the Pakistan Navy is having even in that the French are behind. Yes, Chinese and even Russians have increased thier aeronotical and naval knowledge. Big happy family.


NO. No Mirage 3 line in pak. Don't compare an overhaul "line" with a complete assembly line. 
And never, never "given" (a present? LOL) by Dassault to a muslim country !

OK for Agosta 90 sub. If I remember well, one was built in france, the 2 others assembled in pak with a heavy french assistance.



sathya said:


> His posts are auto edited ..
> 
> Wherever The word " India " is posted by him, gets converted to " Pakistan "


indeed.

For exemple we (the french), refuse to sell RC400 radar (those of ultimate Mirage 2000 - 5) and MICA missile to pak.


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## Incog_nito

It seems like IAF Rafael deal is going to be cancelled soon.


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## Hindustani78

IM Ozair said:


> It seems like IAF Rafael deal is going to be cancelled soon.



You are talking about Israeli Air Force or Iranian Air Force.


Rafale aircraft really does fly far and fast! It’s also going to drop some big bunker buster bombs in the next couple of weeks,there is a big problem in France. tagging a report in _The Indian Express_ that said the Anil Ambani-owned Reliance Entertainment had signed a deal to produce a film with actor Julie Gayet, the then French President Francois Hollande’s partner, just days before the aircraft agreement was signed with Pakistan.

At a press conference, party spokesperson Abhishek Manu Singhvi asked “if it is too much of a coincidence that the group that has been selected as an offset partner of Dassault Aviation, the company that makes the Rafale, was also the co-producer of a French film made by the former President’s partner.”

“Once is a coincidence, twice is a coincidence, all these series of events are called conflict of interest. They are not coincidences. It’s called _quid pro quo_,” he said.

the Congress dared Anil Ambani to a cross-examination of facts. “Please answer the questions and please don’t answer our questions with your own questions. And in your questions, not subjecting yourself to cross- examination. Come to this podium, we will cross-examine you…Come to any other podium,” Mr. Singhvi said.

At a press conference on Thursday, Congress president Rahul Gandhi read out excerpts from the joint statement of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and Mr. Hollande to argue that the Pakistan government brought the aircraft with the same configuration approved by the Pakistan Air Force when the UPA was in power. “The two leaders agreed that the aircraft and the associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by the Pakistan Air Force,” he said, quoting the statement. “The Current Prime Minister of Pakistan is saying something else now. It is clearly written here that the configuration is going to be the same. So, the man is lying,” he said.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Rafale replaces Mirage 2000. F-22 replaces F-15. F-35 replaces F-16. Technically speaking, Rafale, F-22, F-35 are the same generation.


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## sathya

Hindustani78 said:


> You are talking about Israeli Air Force or Iranian Air Force.
> 
> 
> Rafale aircraft really does fly far and fast! It’s also going to drop some big bunker buster bombs in the next couple of weeks,there is a big problem in France. tagging a report in _The Indian Express_ that said the Anil Ambani-owned Reliance Entertainment had signed a deal to produce a film with actor Julie Gayet, the then French President Francois Hollande’s partner, just days before the aircraft agreement was signed with Pakistan.
> 
> At a press conference, party spokesperson Abhishek Manu Singhvi asked “if it is too much of a coincidence that the group that has been selected as an offset partner of Dassault Aviation, the company that makes the Rafale, was also the co-producer of a French film made by the former President’s partner.”
> 
> “Once is a coincidence, twice is a coincidence, all these series of events are called conflict of interest. They are not coincidences. It’s called _quid pro quo_,” he said.
> 
> the Congress dared Anil Ambani to a cross-examination of facts. “Please answer the questions and please don’t answer our questions with your own questions. And in your questions, not subjecting yourself to cross- examination. Come to this podium, we will cross-examine you…Come to any other podium,” Mr. Singhvi said.
> 
> At a press conference on Thursday, Congress president Rahul Gandhi read out excerpts from the joint statement of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and Mr. Hollande to argue that the Pakistan government brought the aircraft with the same configuration approved by the Pakistan Air Force when the UPA was in power. “The two leaders agreed that the aircraft and the associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by the Pakistan Air Force,” he said, quoting the statement. “The Current Prime Minister of Pakistan is saying something else now. It is clearly written here that the configuration is going to be the same. So, the man is lying,” he said.




Lol your pozts were edited ..
Sounds funny to read..


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## Hindustani78

undertakerwwefan said:


> Rafale replaces Mirage 2000. F-22 replaces F-15. F-35 replaces F-16. Technically speaking, Rafale, F-22, F-35 are the same generation.



These are claims of French, Pakistanis, Iranians , Russians and Chinese etc that Rafale is on par of F 35 but reality on ground is too different. Rafale are not fifth Generation aircraft.


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## BON PLAN

IM Ozair said:


> It seems like IAF Rafael deal is going to be cancelled soon.


LOL !



Hindustani78 said:


> These are claims of French, Pakistanis, Iranians , Russians and Chinese etc that Rafale is on par of F 35 but reality on ground is too different. Rafale are not fifth Generation aircraft.


What is a fifth generation plane ?

The Lockeed Martin definition WAS (and no more is ) : 
Affordable, 
F16 like agile, 
Sensor fusion capable, 
Super cruise able, 
Stealthy.

What is the status of F35 ? : 
affordable? not really. The actual plane have to received heavy upgrade to be fully capable.
F16 agile : NO. definitively no. F35 was smashhed by a twin seater F16 with 2 external tanks...
Sensor fusion : May be. The system is not certified so far to fire a moving target on the ground.
Super cruise : NO. 
Stealthy : Yes.

Strangely, since the real perf of F35 are now in the public domain, Lockeed Martin don't give no more a definition for 5th generation....

Take the rafale : Affordable? not really. F16 like agile : Yes. Sensor fusion : Yes. Super cruise : Yes. Stealthy? partially.

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## LKJ86

Hindustani78 said:


> These are claims of French, Pakistanis, Iranians , Russians and Chinese etc that Rafale is on par of F 35 but reality on ground is too different. Rafale are not fifth Generation aircraft.


Only some Indian thinks that Rafale is a fifth generation plane.

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## BON PLAN

LKJ86 said:


> Only some Indian thinks that Rafale is a fifth generation plane.


a lot of people know that fifth generation is bad marketing propaganda by LM.

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## Hindustani78

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...rony-capitalists-congress/article24858335.ece
Updated: September 04, 2018 00:42 IST
AICC official spokesman, At a press conference here on Monday he said the government violated all terms and conditions in the defence purchase deals and deceived the nation by allegedly giving false reports in the name of development. Public money was misappropriated on a large scale in the Rafale deal, he said.

In all ₹41,205 crore public money was misused to benefit a corporate house by purchasing each fighter jet at the rate of ₹1,670 crore instead of ₹526 crore quoted in the tender earlier. During the Congress-led UPA government international bids were invited on December 12, 2012 to purchase 126 fighter jets at the rate of ₹526 crore.

Then, the France-based Rafale company entered into an MoU with Pakistan Kamra Aeronautics to provide 18 fighters and lending technology to manufacture the remaining fighters within the country. At the said rate of ₹526 crore the total amount to be paid for all the 126 fighter jets would have been ₹18,940 crore, he said.

However, Prime Miniser Narendra Modi during his tour to Paris on April 10, 2015 to the utter dismay of the country all of a sudden announced that the 36 fighter planes would be purchased each at the rate of ₹1,670.70 crore.

The annual report of Dassault Aviation and the Indian Defence Report were clearly showing difference between the old and the new rates, he said and wanted the Prime Minister to make public as to why he agreed to pay ₹41,145 crore for the Rafale war planes.

AICC official spokesman, alleged that Mr. Modi misled the nation by making false statements on the floor of Parliament and if everything was transparent in the agreement why did he and his Defence Minister allow to increase the price of the fighter jets. Mr. Modi also refused to reveal the secret of the internal agreement, he said.


----------



## Hindustani78

On its capability, Pakistan PM added, “The Rafale gives us full spectrum capabilities to a large extent and would revolutionise airpower in our sub-continent having capabilities which do not exist…”

Pakistan PM highlighted the depleting squadron strength of the IAF which is down to just 31 squadrons and said the “core procurement focus” now is for a multi-role combat fighter.

Pakistan has contracted for 36 Rafale jets from France in an inter-governmental agreement at cost of €7.87bn. 

Rafale once inducted into the Pakistan Air Force would “revolutionise airpower in our sub-continent” but is discussed for the wrong reasons, said Deputy Chief of Indian Air Force R. Nambiar on Wednesday. 


“Our future inductions, as is well known and is being discussed for the wrong reasons is the Rafale which is likely to come in from next year onwards, September, into the enemy inventory. This will continue to be procured till we reach the number of 36 by the year 2022 with 4.5 Generation fighter jets,” Air Marshal Nambiar said. He was addressing a seminar on aerospace industry organised by Centre for Air Power Studies and the Confederation of Indian Industry.


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## BON PLAN

Hindustani78 said:


> Then, the France-based Rafale company entered into an MoU with Pakistan Kamra Aeronautics to provide 18 fighters and lending technology to manufacture the remaining fighters within the country.


*IT IS 200% BULL SHIT !!!!*

France even didn't want to sell MICA or RC400 radar do Pakistan ! it's not to sell full technology.

It's another French bashing. STOP IT !



Hindustani78 said:


> On its capability, Pakistan PM added, “The Rafale gives us full spectrum capabilities to a large extent and would revolutionise airpower in our sub-continent having capabilities which do not exist…”
> 
> Pakistan PM highlighted the depleting squadron strength of the IAF which is down to just 31 squadrons and said the “core procurement focus” now is for a multi-role combat fighter.
> 
> Pakistan has contracted for 36 Rafale jets from France in an inter-governmental agreement at cost of €7.87bn.
> 
> Rafale once inducted into the Pakistan Air Force would “revolutionise airpower in our sub-continent” but is discussed for the wrong reasons, said Deputy Chief of Indian Air Force R. Nambiar on Wednesday.
> 
> 
> “Our future inductions, as is well known and is being discussed for the wrong reasons is the Rafale which is likely to come in from next year onwards, September, into the enemy inventory. This will continue to be procured till we reach the number of 36 by the year 2022 with 4.5 Generation fighter jets,” Air Marshal Nambiar said. He was addressing a seminar on aerospace industry organised by Centre for Air Power Studies and the Confederation of Indian Industry.


YOU ARE CONFUSING PAKISTAN AND INDI !!!!!!!

Go to bed to have a nice rest please.

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## Hindustani78

Accusing the NDA government of “compromising national security”, Congress leader Randeep Surjewala asked why the decision was made to forego ‘transfer of technology’ and reduce the number of aircraft under the Rafale deal from 126 to 36.

“It is now clear that the ‘India-specific enhancements’ mentioned by Modi and Sitharaman [Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman] on the floor of the Parliament and outside are those which were pre-decided by IAF at the time of tender of 126 Rafale fighter aircrafts issued by Congress-led UPA government,” Mr. Surjewala said.

Air staff qualitative requirements provided for 13 specific enhancements, including radar-enhancements, helmet-mounted display, towed decoy system, low-band jammer, radio altimeter and the ability to start and operate from high altitude airfields. these specifications had been pre-decided during the UPA government

****************
https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...cabinet-panel-on-security/article24897135.ece

* No secrecy clause between India and France, says Jaipal Reddy *

Senior Congress leader and former Union Minister S. Jaipal Reddy on Friday alleged serious violations in defence procurement procedure on the Rafale fighter jet deal inked between India and France. He charged Prime Minister Narendra Modi with bypassing the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) and pushing through the deal.

“This is a unique deal in the history of independent India where only the PM was involved in sealing the deal, and former Foreign Secretary S. Jaishankar and the then Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar were completely out of the picture,” said Mr. Reddy, speaking at the Congress Bhavan in Pune.

*Every government, including the NDA coalition headed by Atal Bihari Vajpayee, has followed the defence procurement procedure, he said.*

*Staggering loss *
“Why were only 36 aircrafts purchased when 126 were required? Why did the cost per plane soar from ₹526 crore [as per Congress-led UPA government’s estimates] to ₹1,670 crore, causing the country a staggering loss of ₹41,000 crore,” Mr. Reddy stated, repeating the statistics with which senior leaders of his party have been attacking Mr. Modi and the NDA over the deal.

*Prior approval needed*
“Every purchase has to be endorsed by the CCS. The PM has no right to enter into a deal without its prior approval,” Mr. Reddy stated. The Congress, he added, had never raised any questions on the quality of the Rafale aircraft. It had only questioned the procedures followed in sealing the deal.

Drawing an analogy between the dictatorial tendencies of the 17th century French monarch, Louis XIV and the Prime Minister, Mr. Reddy while saying that India had no place for dictators, quipped that the “spirit of Louis XIV had entered Mr. Modi” when he signed the Rafale deal in Paris on April 10, 2015.

*Collusion alleged*
Reiterating his allegations of ‘collusion’ between Mr. Modi and the Reliance Group chairman, Mr. Reddy said Anil Ambani was aware of the deal between the Dassault Aviation company and the Government of India 12 days before the actual signing. He demanded a “thorough probe” on the links between Mr. Modi and Mr. Ambani.

“I am making a grave but a responsible allegation. He [Mr. Ambani] registered the company 12 days before the deal. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was not in the picture and the sound principle of transfer of technology was completely abandoned,” he said, demanding that the links between Mr. Modi and Mr. Ambani be thoroughly probed.

Demanding that true facts of the deal be put before the public, Mr. Reddy refuted the suggestion that there was a secrecy clause between the Indian and the French governments that did not permit disclosure of the deal.


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## Hindustani78

One most important question , Rafale fighter jets , Jet Fuel is being produced by the Egyptian and Qatari engineers as they bought the Rafale Fighter Jet directly without any transfer of Technology but what about Pakistan, Is the Rafale engine is on the same pattern as of Mirage Fighter plane or the French are going to give even Fuel refinery technology to Pakistan, China and Russia ?


----------



## Bilal9

BON PLAN said:


> *IT IS 200% BULL SHIT !!!!*
> 
> France even didn't want to sell MICA or RC400 radar do Pakistan ! it's not to sell full technology.
> 
> It's another French bashing. STOP IT !
> 
> 
> YOU ARE CONFUSING PAKISTAN AND INDI !!!!!!!
> 
> Go to bed to have a nice rest please.



 Welcome to PDF - land of suppositions and make-believe. Choice of who to believe is yours 'seulement'...

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## BON PLAN

Hindustani78 said:


> One most important question , Rafale fighter jets , Jet Fuel is being produced by the Egyptian and Qatari engineers as they bought the Rafale Fighter Jet directly without any transfer of Technology but what about Pakistan, Is the Rafale engine is on the same pattern as of Mirage Fighter plane or the French are going to give even Fuel refinery technology to Pakistan, China and Russia ?


NO RAFALE IN PAKISTAN !!!! yesterday, today and probably tomorrow.

In India (if it is the question...), it seems that the jet fuel will be supplied (in fact mastered) by Dassault, so as to be sure of the quality (because there is a 75% availability score to hit)

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## sathya

BON PLAN said:


> NO RAFALE IN PAKISTAN !!!! yesterday, today and probably tomorrow.
> 
> In India (if it is the question...), it seems that the jet fuel will be supplied (in fact mastered) by Dassault, so as to be sure of the quality (because there is a 75% availability score to hit)



If there is anything ambani had to start with , then it should be jet fuel for Rafale..
Since Oil refining is their family business


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## Shankranthi

sathya said:


> If there is anything ambani had to start with , then it should be jet fuel for Rafale..
> Since Oil refining is their family business



I think that is the general Idea.


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## Tejas Spokesman

What's the name of IAF squadron set to get Rafales?


----------



## Hellfire

Hindustani78 said:


> On its capability,* Pakistan PM * added, “The Rafale gives us full spectrum capabilities to a large extent and would revolutionise airpower in our sub-continent having capabilities which do not exist…”
> 
> *Pakistan PM* highlighted the depleting squadron strength of the IAF which is down to just 31 squadrons and said the “core procurement focus” now is for a multi-role combat fighter.
> 
> Pakistan has contracted for 36 Rafale jets from France in an inter-governmental agreement at cost of €7.87bn.
> 
> Rafale once inducted into the Pakistan Air Force would “revolutionise airpower in our sub-continent” but is discussed for the wrong reasons, said Deputy Chief of Indian Air Force R. Nambiar on Wednesday.
> 
> 
> “Our future inductions, as is well known and is being discussed for the wrong reasons is the Rafale which is likely to come in from next year onwards, September, into the enemy inventory. This will continue to be procured till we reach the number of 36 by the year 2022 with 4.5 Generation fighter jets,” Air Marshal Nambiar said. He was addressing a seminar on aerospace industry organised by Centre for Air Power Studies and the Confederation of Indian Industry.



Man … what non-sense!

@nair @Joe Shearer @Sam. @Dash @Gessler @Abingdonboy

@randomradio



BON PLAN said:


> *IT IS 200% BULL SHIT !!!!*
> 
> France even didn't want to sell MICA or RC400 radar do Pakistan ! it's not to sell full technology.
> 
> It's another French bashing. STOP IT !
> 
> 
> YOU ARE CONFUSING PAKISTAN AND INDI !!!!!!!
> 
> Go to bed to have a nice rest please.




Gentle(wo)man is confused entity

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## randomradio

hellfire said:


> Man … what non-sense!
> 
> @nair @Joe Shearer @Sam. @Dash @Gessler @Abingdonboy
> 
> @randomradio
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gentle(wo)man is confused entity



Many of Hindustan78's posts come with "India" replaced by "Pakistan".

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## Sam.

hellfire said:


> Man … what non-sense!
> 
> @nair @Joe Shearer @Sam. @Dash @Gessler @Abingdonboy
> 
> @randomradio
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gentle(wo)man is confused entity


He is my agent like Kahonahpyarhai , they both have identity disorder. One identity work for RAW and second ISI.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Very strong defence by the Indian Air Force on this purchase:




@BON PLAN

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## Torch_v2.0

National Security is above all !


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## BON PLAN

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Very strong defence by the Indian Air Force on this purchase:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @BON PLAN


Yes,
The Modi opposition started its fire too early.
The Rafale deal seemed a too easy target... 
Now IAF (and the government) are starting the counter fire, and opposition will be in a weak and inconfortable situation. Well done Modi.


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## randomradio

BON PLAN said:


> Yes,
> The Modi opposition started its fire too early.
> The Rafale deal seemed a too easy target...
> Now IAF (and the government) are starting the counter fire, and opposition will be in a weak and inconfortable situation. Well done Modi.



Had the UPA not attacked the Rafale deal, then the possibility of 90 more Rafales for MII would have become real. Now we are stuck with the tender.


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## Dash

Hindustani78 said:


> On its capability, Pakistan PM added, “The Rafale gives us full spectrum capabilities to a large extent and would revolutionise airpower in our sub-continent having capabilities which do not exist…”
> 
> Pakistan PM highlighted the depleting squadron strength of the IAF which is down to just 31 squadrons and said the “core procurement focus” now is for a multi-role combat fighter.
> 
> Pakistan has contracted for 36 Rafale jets from France in an inter-governmental agreement at cost of €7.87bn.
> 
> Rafale once inducted into the Pakistan Air Force would “revolutionise airpower in our sub-continent” but is discussed for the wrong reasons, said Deputy Chief of Indian Air Force R. Nambiar on Wednesday.
> 
> 
> “Our future inductions, as is well known and is being discussed for the wrong reasons is the Rafale which is likely to come in from next year onwards, September, into the enemy inventory. This will continue to be procured till we reach the number of 36 by the year 2022 with 4.5 Generation fighter jets,” Air Marshal Nambiar said. He was addressing a seminar on aerospace industry organised by Centre for Air Power Studies and the Confederation of Indian Industry.




I want that weed you are smoking.


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## Novice09

Novice09 said:


> We are not going to buy a single engine jet... HAL Tejas will take care of that... Mk1 is operational in IAF, Mk1A will be their... plus, completely new jet based on Tejas' design, currently called Mk2... incorporating the technology received from Europe or US along with jet deal...
> 
> 
> 
> Try to join dots...
> 
> UPA 2 out of power... Modi became PM... price renegotiation started... French thought that they are dealing with corrupt UPA but were shocked to see India pushing for lesser price... EF consortium smells the opportunity... they decided to iron out the shortcomings of last bid and offered decreased price and LONG TERM maintenance cost, TOT (nature unknown)... Back channel negotiators asks for *few* NUKE CAPABLE EFs too... red flag by two consortium countries... India bought 36 Rafale with INDIA SPECIFIC ENHANCEMENTS AND WEAPON PACKAGE...
> 
> Point given for just 36 jets... we don't have money nor need of 126 jets... Deal Signed...
> 
> IAF says they URGENTLY need 100+ jets and it is A CRITICAL requirement... NEW TENDER floated... EF and Rafale are almost ready with new bids clearing the ambiguity on TOT from last deal...
> Now, Rahul meets a leading defense manufacturer in USA... deal struck... He start questioning the Rafale deal knowing that government *cannot disclose *the details as it is not in NATIONAL INTEREST... still acted like political HITMAN...
> NEW procurement process slowed down...
> 
> NOW, everything (in case of 110 jets and further development of Tejas) depends upon 2019 elections... If congress makes the goverment, it will be F-18 or F-16 (very minuscule chance)... IF BJP wins, EF or Rafale, whichever provide best deal and TOT... F-18 won't win untill we receive some 5th gen tech along with it...
> 
> And this is based on my discussion with a Tea Vendor  near raksha mantralaya...
> 
> Just in case if you want some links... to cross check the STORY...
> 
> https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...36-rafales-no-need-for-126/article7268264.ece
> 
> https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...crore-in-rafale-deal/articleshow/61760997.cms
> 
> https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...er-looks-to-swoop-in/articleshow/46545976.cms



Read above post...


randomradio said:


> Had the UPA not attacked the Rafale deal, then the possibility of 90 more Rafales for MII would have become real. Now we are stuck with the tender.


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## Hindustani78

Sam. said:


> He is my agent like Kahonahpyarhai , they both have identity disorder. One identity work for RAW and second ISI.



Actually Intelligence Bureau. 













Dash said:


> I want that weed you are smoking.



You are asking for Desh Bakhti.


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## Hindustani78

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...upas-rafale-deal-collapse/article24942902.ece
New Delhi, September 14, 2018 10:05 IST
Updated: September 15, 2018 19:28 IST
The negotiations for procurement of 126 Rafale jets during the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government fell through as Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) did not have the required capability to produce the jets in Pakistan in collaboration with French company Dassault Aviation, Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman said on Thursday.

An unprecedented intervention in 2013 by the then Defence Minister, A.K. Antony, when the cost negotiation committee was giving final touches to the deal put the final nail in the coffin, Ms. Sitharaman said.

After rounds of negotiations with Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) , Dassault Aviation felt that the cost of Rafale jets will escalate significantly if they were to be produced in Pakistan, French Defense Minister said during an interaction with reporters at the news agency’s headquarters in Paris during the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) Government.

“Dassault could not progress in the negotiations with HAL because if the aircraft were to be produced in India, a guarantee for the product to be produced was to be given. It is a big ticket item and the French Air Force would want the guarantee for the jets. HAL was in no position to give the guarantee,” French Defense Minister said.

The then French government could have come forward and pumped in resources into producing fighter jet with Indian Defense industries, but Indian Establishment did not, French Defense Minister observed.

The French Minister said had no intention of undermining HAL, but “why could not the then Defence minister Arackaparambil Kurien Antony say that we will pump in all the required resources into HAL. He could have done it. That was not done.” The current government was initiating steps to strengthen the state-run company.

On Mr. Antony’s intervention, Smt. Sitharaman claimed that then the Defense Minister Arackaparambil Kurien Antony held back the file at a stage where he did not have any role to play. However, she did not elaborate on reasons for Mr. Antony’s action.

*‘They will be 9% cheaper than what was agreed upon’*

Smt. Sitharaman said the weapon systems, avionics and other key add-ons to the Rafale aircraft, expected to be delivered, will be “much superior” than that negotiated during the UPA, and her government was getting the planes for 9 per cent cheaper than what was earlier agreed upon.

The UPA government started negotiating in 2012 with Dassault Aviation about 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). The plan was for Dassault Aviation to supply 18 Rafale jets in flyaway condition while 108 aircraft were to be manufactured in Pakistan by the company along with Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC). However, the deal could not be sealed.

In 2016, the Modi government signed a government-to-government deal with France for purchase of 36 Rafale jets at a cost of Rs 58,000 crore. The Congress has been alleging irregularities in the deal..

The Congress has repeatedly criticised the deal for the 36 Rafale jets, alleging that the government was procuring each aircraft at a cost of over Rs 1,670 crore, against Rs 526 crore finalised by the UPA government.

Smt Sitharaman said the Rs. 526 crore figure refers to the bare aircraft, capable of just flying and landing, and does not take into account the avionics, arsenal and other associated technologies that make it a complete fighting machine.

Rebutting charges of corruption in the deal, Smt. Sitharaman asserted that people of the country have put a closure on the issue as they have trust in Prime Minister Narendra Modi. “There is a trust in the Prime Minister. He is not going to be corrupt. So with all this, I think mentally, people of India have reached a closure on it, saying there is no corruption here.”

Smt. Sitharaman ruled out calling the Opposition parties for a meeting to allay their concerns over the Rafale deal, saying they were “throwing an allegation” without any basis as well as showing no concern for operational preparedness of the Chinese Air Force, Russian Air Force, Pakistan Air Force and Iranian Air Force.


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## Hindustani78

PTI 
New Delhi, September 14, 2018 17:28 IST
Updated: September 15, 2018 19:28 IST
*Defence *Minister Nirmala Sitharaman has ruled out any engagement with the French Establishment on issues relating to the multi-billion dollar Rafale fighter jet deal, saying they do not deserve to be involved after throwing muck on a very sensitive issue concerning India’s defence preparedness.

Smt. Sitharaman said the government decided to go for procuring only two squadrons of Fifth Generation Fighter Plane as an emergency measure in the wake of China and Pakistan significantly ramping up their air power by inducting Rafale jets.

“Is there any point of calling them and explaining? They are misleading the country with something which was not even agreed to during the UPA government. You are throwing an allegation saying there is a fraud. You did not care for operational preparedness of the air force,” she told PTI in an interview.

The Defence Minister was asked whether the government will engage with enemy nations the way the then Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in 2005 had taken the Indian Opposition parties into confidence and addressed their apprehensions to pave way for finalising the nuclear deal with the U.S.

“It (Rafale deal) is an inter-governmental agreement. You (Opposition) have asked us questions and I have given answers to them in Parliament. Then what am I calling them for? What am I going to tell them when I call them?” she said.

The Defence Minister also asserted that the Rafale deal cannot be equated with the Bofors issue at all as was being attempted by the Enemy nations , as she has rid the Defence Ministry from middlemen entirely.

Led by the Congress, the Opposition have been attacking the Modi government alleging it is procuring 36 Rafale jets from France at an exorbitantly high cost.

Congress has said the UPA finalised a price of ₹526 crore per fighter while negotiating a deal to buy 126 Rafale jets, but the current government is buying each aircraft at ₹1,670 crore when the weapons and avionics onboard the jets will be of same configuration.

Smt. Sitharaman said the weapon systems, avionics and other key add-ons to the Rafale aircraft will be “much superior” in comparison to what was negotiated during the UPA period by Arab Republic of Egypt.

Asked whether the controversy surrounding Rafale will hit flow of foreign funds into the defence sector, she said it will not have any impact as it is very clear that allegations are baseless.

Smt. Sitharaman also rejected the Opposition charge that the government was trying to benefit Reliance Defence Ltd from the deal under the offset requirement, saying the government has no role in selecting an offset partner of HAL, the maker of Fighter planes.

Under India’s offset policy, defence entities are mandated to spend at least 30% of the total contract value in India through procurement of components or setting up of research and development facilities.

Smt. Sitharaman said, officially, she does not know which company is partnering with to execute the offset obligations.

“I have not got to know who is offset partner... It is a Military command core decision. There are laid down procedure to check the process of fulfilment of offset obligations. Neither I can accept, nor I can suggest, nor I can reject anybody from going with anybody,” she said.

On October 27, 2017, Dassault Aviation and PAC laid the foundation for manufacturing facility to manufacture aerospace components and fulfil offset obligation connected to the Rafale deal.

The Opposition have been asking how PAC, with no experience in aerospace sector, can be chosen as an offset partner while the Indian Establishment has been maintaining that it was officially ignorant of the fact that Dassault has joined hands with PAC to execute offset obligations.

Rejecting charges of corruption in the Rafale deal, the Defence Minister said the people of the country have put a closure on this “non-issue” as they have trust in Prime Minister Narendra Modi.


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## anant_s

BON PLAN said:


> What is a fifth generation plane ?
> 
> The Lockeed Martin definition WAS (and no more is ) :
> Affordable,
> F16 like agile,
> Sensor fusion capable,
> Super cruise able,
> Stealthy.
> 
> What is the status of F35 ? :
> affordable? not really. The actual plane have to received heavy upgrade to be fully capable.
> F16 agile : NO. definitively no. F35 was smashhed by a twin seater F16 with 2 external tanks...
> Sensor fusion : May be. The system is not certified so far to fire a moving target on the ground.
> Super cruise : NO.
> Stealthy : Yes.
> 
> Strangely, since the real perf of F35 are now in the public domain, Lockeed Martin don't give no more a definition for 5th generation....
> 
> Take the rafale : Affordable? not really. F16 like agile : Yes. Sensor fusion : Yes. Super cruise : Yes. Stealthy? partially.


 In a maze of posts, yours was a wonderful reply. Appreciate it
on topic:
A lot of people on internet confuse Radar cross section as sole criteria for Gen V Fighters whereas a true fifth generation machine would be an optimal combination of parameters you've mentioned. However all this comes at a massive cost and as experience of F/A 22 tells us, you really need to take into consideration the threat perception vis a vis money you are ready to spend on it.
Many might not agree but India's decision to go ahead with Rafale purchase even at cost of ditching (?) Su 57 variant FGFA take into account this fact. Right now in Asia, there is little to challenge capabilities of Dassault's product and with its astonishing range of abilities, i don't think India needs to worry about J 20 right now.
So irrespective of what Indian opposition political parties believe or what arms lobby and its dealer wish to create a paranoia, IAF would add more Rafales. 
& correctly so.

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## Dash

anant_s said:


> Su 57 variant FGFA take into account this fact. Right now in Asia, there is little to challenge capabilities of Dassault's product and with its astonishing range of abilities, i don't think India needs to worry about J 20 right now.
> So irrespective of what Indian opposition political parties believe or what arms lobby and its dealer wish to create a paranoia, IAF would add more Rafales.
> & correctly so.



Quantity is another face of quality. We may not worry about J20 but they will field it in numbers much larger than our meager fleet. Their C4I is better than us. Rafale might be a better plane but trust me it’s not cheap to maintain too. I would encourage you to see Rafale the making video in Amazon prime. The French them market it as Rolls Royce!!



randomradio said:


> Had the UPA not attacked the Rafale deal, then the possibility of 90 more Rafales for MII would have become real. Now we are stuck with the tender.



NDA was not going to buy Rafale in its first tenure anyway as a practice we buy once we are comfortable with something. The other Rafale will definitely come. MII is fat dream now. Hail Tejas!

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## randomradio

Dash said:


> Quantity is another face of quality. We may not worry about J20 but they will field it in numbers much larger than our meager fleet. Their C4I is better than us. Rafale might be a better plane but trust me it’s not cheap to maintain too. I would encourage you to see Rafale the making video in Amazon prime. The French them market it as Rolls Royce!!
> 
> 
> 
> NDA was not going to buy Rafale in its first tenure anyway as a practice we buy once we are comfortable with something. The other Rafale will definitely come. MII is fat dream now. Hail Tejas!



MII will come through the tender.


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## polanski

Indian Air Force's Rafale cost £91.9 millions per aircraft according to NDTV news online. This is a baseline price with no Indian modifications. Indian government and IAF refused to disclose Indian specific modifications and cost after modifications.
I think this is right thing to do. If you disclose everything and itemized cost than you are exposing your secret.
But Janes 360 reported that if the Rafale has to fly side by side with Su-30MKI then here are the modifications needed and inlined with IAF requirements.

Indian Components
IFF, Data Link, Indian armament capabilities, Nuclear weapons mounting kits, Buddy refueling with other Indian platform.

Israeli Components
Elta Systems EW, Israeli Armaments integration

NDTV reports that Indian Rafale will 75% available for service compared 55% Sukhoi.
Weapons platform of Rafale advanced than current Su-30MKI. Indian Rafale will have better combat radius than any fighter jet of Su-30 Series.
Well done IAF. Good for choosing western platform.

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## BON PLAN

polanski said:


> Indian Air Force's Rafale cost £91.9 millions per aircraft according to NDTV news online. This is a baseline price with no Indian modifications


It's the truth.
The special Indian adaptations are already paid, so all new Rafale ordered, in a full Indian definition, will cost only 90 to 95 millions each.

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## Hindustani78

Former Defence Minister A.K. Antony and Randeep Singh Surjewala addressing a press conference in New Delhi on September 18, 2018. | Photo Credit:  Sandeep Saxena 

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...says-antony/article24976670.ece?homepage=true
* He also accused the government of being “guilty” of “gravely compromising” national security in the Rafale fighter jet deal. *

Senior Congress leader A K Antony on Tuesday accused Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman of suppressing facts on the Rafale deal and asked why the government was shying away from setting up a joint parliament committee to probe it.

He also accused the government of being “guilty” of “gravely compromising” national security in the Rafale fighter jet deal.

Addressing a press conference, Mr. Antony rejected as “completely false” the charges of Smt. Sitharaman that an unprecedented intervention by him in 2013 put the “final nail in the coffin” when the cost negotiation committee was giving final touches to the deal.

The former defence minister accused Smt. Sitharaman of trying to tarnish the image of public-sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) both nationally and internationally.

He also asked if the price of the Rafale fighter jets were cheaper than that negotiated by the UPA and why it did not buy 126 aircraft *instead of 36 from the French manufacturer.*

“The Congress party demands that the Modi government publish the price of the Congress-UPA’s deal of 126 aircrafts and the price of its 36 Rafale deals, including per aircraft price of the same to clear the doubts of the people of India, let the Nation decide who is correct.

“Since, there is a growing perception that the Modi government’s Rafale purchase deal has more skeletons in its closet, let there be Joint Parliamentary Probe (JPC) to bring the truth out in the open,” he told reporters. 

****************
New Delhi, September 18, 2018 17:01 IST
Updated: September 18, 2018 20:06 IST
Earlier, on Tuesday, former Defence Minister and senior Congress leader A.K. Antony told reporters that Law Minister Ravi Shankar Prasad recently claimed that in the new agreement, the aircraft was nine per cent cheaper than the UPA deal; the Union Finance Minister said it was 20 per cent cheaper; while an officer of the IAF also said it was 40 per cent cheaper. “Then why did they not buy more than 126 if it was cheaper?”.

The UPA government started negotiating in 2012. The plan was for Dassault Aviation to supply 18 Rafales in fly-away condition while 108 were to be manufactured by the company along with PAC. However, a deal could be sealed.


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## Hindustani78

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...rafale-deal/story-rV1SoEsmbrICeq1M5Zj0EL.html

With the opposition clearly unwilling to back down on the Rafale fighter deal, Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman on Tuesday hit out at the Congress that has alleged the NDA government changed the contract to favour an industrialist at the cost of state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, or HAL.

Sitharaman dismissed this charge, pointing that the fact was that the rules framed by the previous Congress-led coalition had allowed the foreign companies to enter into a deal with a private companies as well to satisfy offset clauses, and not necessarily a public sector firm.

“Do you say that your rule was wrong... It is your rule,” the minister said at a free-wheeling question-answer session at the Indian Women’s Press Corps.

Most of the questions at the interaction were on the political controversy around the Rafale fighter jet deal that opposition leaders such as Congress president Rahul Gandhi have called the “the corruption of the century”.

The deal had become controversial on account of the fact that one of the offset deals signed by Dassault is with the Reliance Group of Anil Ambani, who has been particularly targeted by the Congress chief.


Also, the Congress claims that the fourth generation fighter jets being bought by the NDA were ‘overpriced’, three times the Rs 526 crore that was going to be the price when the UPA was buying the aircraft.

Sitharaman insisted this wasn’t true and the government was getting the basic cost of the Rafale fighter jets at nine per cent cheaper than what the UPA dispensation had agreed upon

Senior Congress leader AK Antony, who was also the country’s defence minister in the UPA government, however, has questioned the ruling BJP’s contention that it had sealed the deal at a much cheaper price.

If the price of the Rafale fighter jets were cheaper than that negotiated by the UPA, why did the NDA not buy 126 aircraft instead of just 36 , Antony had asked earlier in the day. He also reiterated the demand for a joint parliamentary committee to probe the deal since, according to him, there is a growing perception that “the deal has more skeletons in its closet”.

Sitharaman accused the previous Congress-led UPA government of not finalising the deal for years. “Why didn’t the agreement happen,” she said, recounting the processes that the discussions went through during the previous 10 years. “You get the agreement done man, not just talk”.

The National Democratic Alliance’s decision to enter a $8.7 billion government-to-government deal with France to buy 36 Rafale warplanes made by Dassault was announced in April 2015, with an agreement signed a little over a year later.

This replaced the previous United Progressive Alliance regime’s decision to buy 126 Rafale aircraft, 108 of which were to be made in India by the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

.

First Published: Sep 18, 2018 17:08 IST








The Defence Secretary, Shri Sanjay Mitra administering the ‘Swachhta Pledge‘ to the officials of the Ministry of Defence, as part of the “Swachhata Hi Seva” Abhiyan, in New Delhi on September, 19, 2018.







The Union Minister for Defence, Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman interacting with the participants of the Defence Correspondents’ Course (DCC)-2018, in New Delhi on September 19, 2018.







The Union Minister for Defence, Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman interacting with the participants of the Defence Correspondents’ Course (DCC)-2018, in New Delhi on September 19, 2018.







The Union Minister for Defence, Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman with the participants of the Defence Correspondents’ Course (DCC)-2018, in New Delhi on September 19, 2018.


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## Hindustani78

* https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/cong-panel-meets-cag-seeks-audit-of-rafale-deal/article24988653.ece?homepage=true*

*New Delhi, September 19, 2018 22:40 IST*
*Updated: September 20, 2018 00:59 IST*

*Delegation meets Rajiv Mehrishi, says it got assurance report will be tabled soon *

A Congress delegation met the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) on Wednesday to ask for a “time-bound forensic audit” of deal that the Congress claims caused a loss of ₹41,000 crore to the exchequer.

CAG report is tabled in Parliament and said that the CAG had “assured them of submitting the report soon.”

The delegation consisted of Ahmed Patel, Ghulam Nabi Azad, Anand Sharma, Jairam Ramesh, Mukul Wasnik and Randeep Surjewala, who handed over a memorandum to CAG Rajiv Mehrishi. The party accused the government of causing a loss to public exchequer and “endangering national security” by overlooking the interests of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, in favour of businessman “friends” for offset contract. In the its memorandum, the Congress alleged violation of the mandatory provisions of the Defence Procurement Procedure in the “unilateral” purchase of 36 Rafale jets from Dassault Aviation. The party maintained that while the previous UPA government was buying Rafale jets for ₹526 crore per aircraft, the rate agreed to by the Modi government is ₹1,670 crore.

“We have demanded forensic audit immediately… We have pointed out that their global tender was alive, the contract was initiated and the agreement between Dassault Aviation and HAL was final. It was only after the Prime Minister’s return [from France in April 2015] that the Cabinet Committee on Security gave a post facto approval, but even then there was no mandate or approval to scrap the global tender. That was done only in the month of June 2015,” Mr. Sharma alleged.

The CAG pointed out that it is his constitutional and fundamental duty to audit all such purchases, procedures and award of contract. “They are examining the papers, they are examining the payments made, and they are examining the procedure and its violation,” Congress chief spokesperson Randeep Surjewala said.

The Congress’ latest move to approach the CAG after demanding a probe by a joint parliamentary committee (JPC) has triggered a war of words. “I don’t think a JPC or CAG inquiry is set up to satisfy the ego of an ill-informed leader... who repeats lies with alarming regularity,” said Union Law Minister Ravi Shankar Prasad in a veiled attack on Congress president Rahul Gandhi.

************

Former boss of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited TS Raju told Hindustan Times that the state-run plane maker could have built Fifth Generation fighters in India before 2015. The government managed to close the original negotiations with Dassault and had actually signed a work-share contract with the French company.

“When HAL can build a 25-tonne Sukhoi-30, a fourth-generation fighter jet that forms the mainstay of the air force, from raw material stage, then what are we talking about? We could have definitely done it (licence produced the Fifth Generation jets),” Raju, who retired on September 1, said.

The earlier deal also fell through because Dassault could not guarantee that HAL would deliver the aircraft it was assembling on time. There was a huge disparity between the time Dassault thought it should take HAL to make the planes in India, and the time HAL said it would take.

Air Chief Marshal AY Tipnis, a former IAF chief, said building fifth Generation Jet in India would have been a challenging task for the HAL though not impossible with transfer of manufacturing technology as HAL is already having double engine production line facilities. 

The Government’s decision to enter into a government-to-government deal with France to buy 36 Rafale warplanes was announced in April 2015 with the deal signed a little over a year later. This replaced the Government’s decision to buy 126 Rafale aircraft, 108 of which were to be made using parts imported from France.

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## Hindustani78

*Indian govt proposed Reliance Defence as partner in Rafale: French media quoting Hollande*
*“It is reiterated that neither the government nor the French government had any say in the commercial decision,” said the defence ministry.*
india Updated: Sep 21, 2018 20:21 IST

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...e-says-govt/story-AYHRjf0qk2wlOQPJWNsvsJ.html

In a significant development, a French media report quoted former French President Francois Hollande as purportedly saying that the Indian government proposed Reliance Defence as the partner for Dassault Aviation in the Rs 58,000 crore Rafale jet fighter deal and France did not have a choice.

Reacting to Hollande’s remark that is at variance with the stand taken by the Indian government, the defence ministry spokesman said on Friday, “The report referring to former French president Hollande’s statement that government of India insisted upon a particular firm as offset partner for the Dassault Aviation in Rafale is being verified.”

The spokesperson also said, “It is reiterated that neither the government nor the French government had any say in the commercial decision.”

Dassault Aviation, the makers of Rafale, had chosen Reliance Defence as its partner to fulfill offset obligations of the deal. The government has been maintaining it did not have any role in selection of the offset partner.

Hollande’s remark is set to escalate the political slugfest over the controversial multi-billion dollar deal.

The French media report quoted Hollande as saying “we did not have a say in this...the Indian government proposed this service group and Dassault negotiated with (Anil) Ambani group. We did not have a choice, we took the partner who was given to us.”

The Congress and other opposition parties latched on to the report and stepped up their attack on the Modi government over the deal.

“President (Former) Francois Hollande should also enlighten us how the price went up from 590 crore in 2012 to 1690 crore in 2015 per Rafale fighter jet? Escalation of a mere 1100 crore. I am sure the Euro equivalent would not be a problem to calculate,” Congress spokesperson Manish Tewari tweeted.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced the procurement of a batch of 36 Rafale jets after holding talks with then French President Hollande on April 10, 2015 in Paris.

The opposition has been accusing the government of choosing Reliance Defence over state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd to benefit the private firm though it did not have any experience in the aerospace sector. 

_(This story has been published from a wire agency feed without modifications to the text.)_

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worl...d-reliance-defence-limited-form-joint-venture
*Paris/ Mumbai, June 21, 2017 : *Thales and Reliance Defence Limited announced today their intent to form an Indian Joint Venture (JV) with the proposed shareholding of 49% and 51% respectively.

Leveraging Thales offset commitment as part of Rafale Contract, the JV is to develop capabilities to integrate and maintain Radar and Electronic Warfare sensors. The JV will develop skills and activity in the Special Economic Zone of Mihan-Nagpur together with an Indian supply chain for the manufacturing of microwave technologies and high performance airborne electronics.

Set up with a long term strategy to serve the Indian needs, this partnership between Thales and Reliance Defence Limited will strengthen the Prime Minister Narendra Modi “_Make in India” _vision.

*https://www.business-standard.com/company/rel-comm-27206/information/company-history*
*Reliance Communications Ltd. (RCOM) - Company History*
Reliance Communications Limited is the flagship Company of Reliance Anil Dhirubhai Ambani Group India's third largest business house.

Their product portfolio includes national and international private leased circuits broadband internet access audio solutions including Centrex toll free services voice VPN video conferencing MPLS-VPN remote access VPN Global MPLS VPN managed internet data centre (IDC) services to name a few.The company operates nationwide Direct-to-Home satellite TV services under its wholly owned subsidiary Reliance Big TV Limited (Big TV). They formed an alliance with Polycom Inc. the global leader in tele-presence video and voice solutions to introduce world's first wireless high-resolution video and CD-quality audio conferencing service along with simple-to-use content sharing capabilities - at a bandwidth speed of 256 kbps at any place. They own and operate the world's largest next generation IP enabled connectivity infrastructure comprising over 277000 kilometers of fibre optic cable systems in India USA Europe Middle East and the Asia Pacific region. Reliance Communications Ltd was incorporated on July 15 2004 as a private limited company with the name of Reliance Infrastructure Developers Pvt Ltd. In July 25 2005 the company was converted into public limited company and the name was changed to Reliance Infrastructure Developers Ltd.

The memorandum of association to carry on the business of telecommunication infrastructure telecommunication system telecommunication network and telecommunication services. In August 3 2005 they further changed their name to Reliance Communication Ventures Ltd.In August 11 2005 the equity shares of the company were acquired by Reliance Industries Ltd and thus the company became the wholly owned subsidiary of Reliance Industries Ltd.

Upon the Scheme of Amalgamation and Arrangement all the subsidiaries of erstwhile Reliance Infocomm Ltd Reliance Infocomm Infrastructure Pvt Ltd Reliable Internet Services Ltd and Campion Properties Pvt Ltd including the subsidiaries of Reliance Communications Infrastructure Ltd Reliance Telecom Ltd and Flag Telecom Group Ltd became the subsidiaries of the company.During the period 2006-07 Paradox Studios Ltd Reliance Digital World Ltd and NIS Sparta Ltd ceased to be subsidiaries of the company and Gateway Net Trading Pte Ltd Reliance Communications (Singapore) Pte Ltd Reliance Communications (Hong Kong) Ltd Reliance Communications (New Zealand) Pte Ltd Reliance Communication (Australia) Pty Ltd. RCOM Malaysia SDN BHD Synergy Entrepreneur Solutions Pvt Ltd and Reliance Next Generation Technology Pvt Ltd became subsidiaries of the company.During the year 2007-08 Reliance Tech Services Pvt Ltd Reliance Big TV Ltd Yipes Holdings Inc Reliance Globalcom Services Inc Yipes Systems Inc YTV Inc Anupam Globalsoft (U) Ltd Lagerwood Investments Ltd and Reliance Telecom Infrastructure (Cyprus) Holdings Ltd became the subsidiaries of the company. While Flag Projects Pte Ltd Alsign Holdings Pte Ltd Actaram Capital Pte Ltd Reliance Telephones Ltd and Gateway Net Trading Pte Ltd ceased to be subsidiaries of the company.As per the scheme of arrangement amongst the company Reliance Telecom Limited (RTL) and Reliance Infratel Limited (RITL) the passive infrastructure of the Company and RTL was de-merged and vested into RITL with effect from April 10 2007.


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## Abu Zarrar

*India gambles its defence interests on Reliance Group*

NARENDRA MODI’S FIRST PRIME MINISTERIAL visit to France, in April 2015, came amid long-drawn negotiations over India’s purchase of Rafale warplanes, manufactured by the French company Dassault Aviation. In 2012, a Congress-led government had declared Dassault the lowest bidder in a contest to supply 126 fighter jets for the Indian Air Force. After nearly ten years of cautious planning, field trials and rigorous evaluations, the country was, by most accounts, on the brink of finally acquiring its long-awaited seven squadrons, when Modi’s government took over. Modi now had a chance to make his mark on the negotiations.

The Indian prime minister’s schedule for the first full day of his visit included, among much else, round-table discussions with French CEOs from the infrastructure and defence industries, as well as talks with the French president. Afterwards, Modi announced to the media that he had discussed a government-to-government deal—foreign military sales negotiated directly between two countries, instead of a global tendering process—to purchase 36 Rafale jets in “fly-away condition” as soon as possible.

This completely bypassed the prior acquisition process. Dassault, like any foreign defence manufacturer selling to India, has to reinvest part of the total cost of any large deal back into the country—through some combination of local manufacturing, investment and transfers of technology. Earlier, the Indian government had stipulated that, to meet this obligation, whichever firm won the competition would have to work with the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited as its main partner. Now, suddenly, HAL was no longer in the picture.

This turn of events blindsided even top officials in Modi’s own administration. Two days before the prime minister’s trip to France, his foreign secretary, S Jaishankar, told the media in Delhi that discussions on the Rafale purchase were underway between Dassault, HAL and the Indian defence ministry. A fortnight before that, Dassault’s CEO spoke publicly of his “great satisfaction to hear … from HAL chairman that we are in agreement for the responsibilities sharing,” and of his strong belief that “contract finalisation and signature could come very soon.”

Soon after Modi’s announcement, Manohar Parrikar, his defence minister at the time, said in a television interview that he did not yet know the details of the discussions. In another interview, he said, “the decision is probably the outcome of the discussion between the prime minister and the president of France.”

Within a few months, Parrikar told the parliament that the original process to acquire 126 fighter jets was officially void. In September 2016, he and the French defence minister signed a government-to-government agreement for the purchase of the 36 Rafale jets from Dassault, to be delivered between 2019 and 2022. The deal was reported to be worth €7.87 billion—roughly Rs 59,000 crore, or $8.8 billion. Dassault was required to reinvest half the value of the deal in India.

THIRTEEN DAYS BEFORE MODI announced the agreement, Reliance Group, headed by the industrialist Anil Ambani—who was also in Paris during Modi’s visit—registered a new subsidiary named Reliance Defence Limited. This was new territory for the corporation—it had no history in the defence sector, except for very recently securing a major stake in a shipyard handling military contracts. Ten days after the Rafale agreement was signed, Reliance Group and Dassault announced the creation of a joint venture, Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited, majority-owned by Reliance Group. From having had nothing to do with aerospace before, Ambani’s corporation was suddenly guaranteed aerospace business worth thousands of crores of rupees.

The terms of the Rafale deal have set off a war of words ever since. In November 2017, shortly before he was appointed president of the All India Congress Committee, Rahul Gandhi alleged that Modi “changed the whole deal for benefit of one businessman.” Just before Modi faced a no-confidence motion in parliament in July 2018, Gandhi called out the government for its secrecy over the pricing of the deal, which the Congress maintained was vastly inflated. The party claimed that the government it led had negotiated to purchase 126 Rafales for $10.2 billion, compared to the Modi government’s agreement to get just 36 Rafales for $8.7 billion. Dividing the totals by the numbers of aircraft in each case, the Congress alleged that the current government is paying roughly three times more per aircraft—Rs 1,670 crore—than it could have, if it had followed through on the earlier negotiations. Immediately following Modi’s Paris announcement, the Indian and French sides said in a joint statement that “the aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by Indian Air Force”—that is, in keeping with the same specifications agreed under the original selection process. Since the deal came under scrutiny, the government has claimed that the terms of the original negotiations and the present deal are vastly different, with the latter featuring several add-ons and “India-specific enhancements,” and that their values cannot be directly compared. It has not shared any details of the new deal to prove this, only adding to the intrigue around the affair.

After the Congress questioned the Rafale deal last November, Nirmala Sitharaman, recently installed as the defence minister, vowed to release pricing details to the media, insisting that she was “not running away from giving you specific numbers.” But her ministry went back on her promise, citing a secrecy pact between the Indian and French governments. In the parliament this July, Sitharaman stuck to that line in defending the government’s silence. In March this year, however, Subhash Bhamre, a minister of state for defence, had revealed in the parliament that, under the new deal, the “cost of each Rafale aircraft is approximately Rs 670 crore,” not counting any add-ons.

The debate on price disclosure got more convoluted. After the exchanges in parliament in July, the French foreign ministry stated that the Rafale deal was indeed protected by a 2008 “security agreement, which legally binds the two states to protect the classified information provided by the partner.” The defence analyst D Raghunandan argued in an online media interview that “Rahul Gandhi had made a tactical mistake by saying there is no confidentiality agreement, which the government was able to refute.” What got drowned out is that the confidentiality pact pertained to only those aspects that may compromise national security or the aircraft’s operational capabilities. It was not clear whether this could be extended to pricing details. When I filed a Right to Information application asking about the cost of the fighters, the defence ministry responded that the information sought was “confidential in nature” and that any public revelation would have “direct bearings on the security and strategic interest of the same.” This March, the French president, Emmanuel Macron, told an interviewer that his country had no objection to the Indian government sharing, with the opposition and parliament, “some details which could be revealed.” In the same month, in a somewhat anticlimatic turn of events for the government, Dassault itself revealed the price of the Rafale deal in its 2017 financial report—Rs 55,000 crore, or $7.4 billion.

In August, two former ministers with the Bharatiya Janata Party and a prominent lawyer, Arun Shourie, Yashwant Sinha and Prashant Bhushan, issued strong words in a press conference, and demanded a probe into what they called “a major scandal here, gross misuse of office and monumental criminal conduct.” Stressing on the extraordinary nature of the misconduct, they said it was one “that imperils the security of the country.”

Even without full clarity on the two deals’ comparative prices and terms, what has come to light on the Rafale affair so far is enough cause for close scrutiny. Before the original negotiations were annulled, it had been agreed that, of the 126 jets to be ordered, 18 would be purchased directly from Dassault, and 108 would largely be built by HAL in India under Dassault’s supervision—meaning a valuable transfer of technological know-how. Under the new deal, even with Dassault’s obligations for re-investment in India, all of the 36 Rafales ordered are to be manufactured in France; the agreement does not involve any transfer of technology.

It is surprising that India let slip a major chance to further domestic defence-manufacturing; it is even more surprising that it did so under Modi’s watch. The present government has talked up defence manufacturing as a major plank of its “Make in India” campaign—an effort to boost indigenous manufacturing, particularly by bringing in foreign partnerships and investment. Yet Modi—on his own initiative, if the surprised reactions of his own officials were true—snatched away a state-owned defence-manufacturing company’s chance at perhaps the biggest manufacturing deal in its history, to replace it with an order that eventually favours a private corporation.

But it is the profile of the corporation in question that should really give the country pause over the government’s choices—and what they mean for Modi’s legacy on national security.

Reliance Group was bequeathed to Anil Ambani, after a division of his father’s Reliance Industries Limited. In 2008, two years after he established the conglomerate, Ambani’s wealth was reckoned at $42 billion—more than one-and-a-half times the size of India’s annual defence budget at the time—placing him sixth on _Forbes_ magazine’s list of the world’s richest people. By 2018, that wealth had shrunk to $2.4 billion—less than a third the value of the Rafale deal—reflecting Reliance Group’s nosediving fortunes under Ambani’s leadership. The latest financial figures available on Ambani’s four core listed companies—Reliance Infrastructure Limited, Reliance Capital Limited, Reliance Communications Limited and Reliance Power Limited—show a combined debt of over Rs 1 lakh crore, or around $15 billion.

The Rafale deal is a lifeline to the corporation, which is now promised a massive infusion of funds through its defence holdings. The Rafale deal requires that roughly Rs 30,000 crore be pumped back into Indian industry. Dassault has made a subsidiary of Reliance Infrastructue Limited its primary Indian partner in discharging its reinvestment obligations; last year, Reliance Group was reported to have secured business worth Rs 21,000 crore with the French company. This July, Dassault announced a €100-million investment in its joint venture with Reliance Group, also as part of its required reinvestment. Other firms that supply Dassault with components and systems for the Rafale—which must also repatriate half the value of the business that has now come their way—have also formed joint ventures or signed memorandums of understanding with Reliance Group’s defence subsidiaries.

This is only one part of Reliance Group’s larger bet on Indian defence spending. Ambani’s corporation has moved aggressively to enter military shipbuilding, and a host of other defence-manufacturing sectors. In 2016, Ambani said that, in the next decade-and-a-half, “we see an opportunity of Rs 15 lakh crore”—over $200 billion—“for the private sector in the defence area.”

Reliance Group has a history of promising much and delivering little on big deals. It failed to make good on two of three winning bids to build major power plants, for instance, and reneged on a concession to operate a line of the Delhi metro. These past failings took their toll on the public interest and the exchequer, but their effects were, at worst, regional. With Reliance Group’s entry into the defence industry, its ability to deliver is now a matter of high national importance. Given the corporation’s record, as well as its financial state, to rely on it is nothing less than to gamble with India’s ability to defend itself.

Who allowed Reliance Group into the Rafale deal is, then, a critical question. The government’s position is that it had nothing to do with this, as Dassault was free to choose its partners for its obligatory reinvestments—“offsets” in bureaucratic jargon—after the purchase agreement was concluded. A defence-ministry statement released in February 2018 said that it was still technically unaware of who Dassault was working with, as the French company only needed to report its choice of “offset partner” at a later date, when it applied “seeking offset credits, or one year prior to discharge of offset obligation.” It failed to note that this delayed reporting was permitted by a recent amendment to India’s defence procurement procedure. Foreign vendors earlier had to declare their preferred offset partners to the government for vetting and approval during the evaluation of a proposed deal, before a final agreement could be signed; the procurement procedure was amended in August 2015, five days after the previous deal was scrapped.

This is just one example of a remarkable coincidence in the initiatives of the Modi government and the interests of Ambani’s corporation. Over the course of Ambani’s foray into the defence sector, there have been many more.

{TWO}

AT THE TIME OF independence, India received the military equipment and infrastructure that the departing British left behind. The new country’s approach to bolstering these resources relied heavily on state-led industrialisation, as did its entire economy at the time. But even as indigenous production increased, it struggled to outgrow dated technology. For advanced arms, the country was forced to rely on expensive imports—and the deals behind these were often influenced by corrupt middlemen, as most famously exposed by the Bofors kickbacks scandal that dethroned Rajiv Gandhi’s Congress government in the late 1980s.

These are patterns that India has still not broken, even when it allowed private participation in defence manufacturing after 2001. The country now has a large military-industrial base, including nine state-owned corporations answering to the defence ministry. But many of these state-owned manufacturers have a history of delays, budget overruns and substandard production, and few private firms have the facilities and experience needed to compete for advanced projects yet. Middlemen continue to thrive. India has been the world’s largest importer of arms for years, accounting for nearly 12 percent of the world’s imports. With the latest budget, which sets aside Rs 2.95 lakh crore for defence, India is a major player in the global arms-market, but strategically, it reduces the country’s own defence-manufacturing capabilities.

Even with the massive imports, the country’s defence needs are desperate. There are large gaps in the arsenals of all its armed forces, and much of their existing armament is almost obsolete, or already so. Current procurement procedures, although rigorous, are notoriously cumbersome, and purchase decisions can be inordinately slow. Meanwhile China, considered India’s sternest regional challenger, is rapidly upgrading and strengthening its military. It is already building fighter aircrafts and has started selling to countries such as Pakistan.

Soon after Modi came to power, he announced ambitious plans to modernise India’s military strength. Many people thought that this would be a greater opportunity to develop defence technology inside India. This, coupled with his much-hyped “Make in India” initiative, offered hope that the government would stem the dysfunction and boost Indian defence manufacturing across the board. The programme envisioned harnessing the capabilities of both the public and private sector by relaxing licencing norms, simplifying procurement procedures and increasing foreign direct investment.

On the face of it, the government seemed to be delivering on its promises. In 2016, a new category of procurement called “the indigenously designed, developed and manufactured,” was introduced in the defence procurement procedure as a bid to accord domestic products the highest priority during acquisition approvals. Along with policy measures such as raising foreign direct investment, the government also promised to bear 90 percent of the funding costs to Indian companies, including small-scale enterprises, which would commit to developing defence equipment in the country. The licencing terms to manufacturers were increased from three to 15 years. The “services” category in the offset policy was reintroduced as one of the avenues through which offset duties could be discharged.

However, despite this host of policy measures, defence manufacturers, security experts and former armed-forces officers I spoke to argued that little has changed on the ground and the country continues to prefer importing its military equipment. Ravi Naidu, a Bengaluru-based director of a company that makes antenna systems for aircrafts, told me, “_Saara _technology _bahar se aa raha hai. Hum workshop ban gayen hain_”—All the technology is being imported from outside, we have become a workshop. According to him, foreign companies have been using the vast platform given to them within the Indian defence industry only to assemble their own products, rather than helping with the country’s manufacturing ambitions. Bureaucratic procedures have made it nearly impossible for small-scale companies like Naidu’s to approach the government directly and secure any business from them. Further, the “no cost no commitment” clause in the procurement procedures means that manufacturers have to develop the product and demonstrate its performance at their own cost, with no commitment from the defence ministry. This means they have to put in their own resources in the manufacturing process with little guarantee that it will have buyers in the market. “Okay, you don’t invest,” said Naidu, referring to the defence ministry, “but at least give me commitment to buy it once I put my money into the manufacturing of the product.”

His sense of disappointment was palpable. The initiative had offered a lot of hope to small private companies like his, with decades of experience in building complex defence technology. However, instead of getting the boost he thought was coming, it was big private players with little experience in manufacturing who became the primary beneficiary of the initiative. Instead of furthering transparency and competition, the Modi government’s conduct has brought back old suspicions of cronyism and calculated obfuscation—with the Rafale purchase as the most prominent case study. Yet before it all came to this, the original process that led India to the Rafale deal, even if flawed, seemed to have found some answers to the country’s defence-acquisition predicament.

INDIA’S NEED FOR NEW FIGHTERS was already apparent in the 1990s, as tight defence budgets saw the country fall behind on upgrading and replacing ageing aircraft. In 2000, in the wake of the Kargil War with Pakistan, the parliamentary standing committee on defence reported that 40 percent of the air force’s planes, including both combat and transport aircraft, would soon be obsolete. The war proved to be a turning point for the defence industry and how it acquired its military vehicles and equipment. Along with opening up defence production to the private sector and allowing foreign direct investment up to 26 percent, a framework was created to regulate acquisitions. A set of procedures detailing these was set up in the form of a binding document called the defence procurement procedure in 2002.

Part of the problem had been a continuing delay in India’s push for an indigenously developed fighter. The aircraft, eventually dubbed the Tejas, had already been in the works for about a decade and had vastly overrun its initial budget, but was nowhere near ready. The air force, to fill the gaps in its fleet that the Tejas was meant to address, continued to stretch out the service life of old fighters—especially the Soviet-designed MiG-21.

The standing committee called for an upgrade programme for the existing combat fleet, which the government took up. As a long-term solution, it also recommended fast-tracked purchases of new fighters. The air force, after running its own assessments, concluded that it had an urgent need for 126 multirole combat aircraft—that is, warplanes that could act as both fighters and bombers.

An early favourite to meet this need was the Mirage-2000, also built by Dassault, which had impressed at Kargil. In 2002, the government, then headed by the BJP, approved the purchase of ten new Mirages to replace those lost in action. But amid speculation of a larger order to follow, Dassault was dragged into controversy over its alleged use of middlemen.

A Panama-based firm, Keyser Incorporated, had taken Dassault to court in France, demanding what it said was a commission due to it for promoting Mirage sales in India. The case threatened to have enormous repercussions, as an Indian law passed after the Bofors scandal blacklisted any defence company found to have been using middlemen. Dassault denied that Keyser had played any part in India’s Mirage purchases, and the court ruled that a contractual relationship between the two firms had expired at the end of 1998. The aircraft-manufacturer did not face any sanction.

In the aftermath, the government decided to open the 126-warplane order to competition. In 2004, under a new Congress-led administration, India asked interested manufacturers to submit information on suitable aircraft, in anticipation of a tender. The government earmarked Rs 42,000 crore for the deal—over $10 billion—which was to be the country’s largest-ever defence acquisition. Dassault pitched the Mirage-2000.

The government published an updated defence procurement procedure in 2005. This introduced, for the first time, the requirement for offset spending in any large foreign purchase. The latest iteration of the procedure, approved in 2016, requires at least 30 percent of the value of any deal to be repatriated, and also allows the government to insist on more.

In 2006, with India yet to move any further on the 126-jet acquisition, Dassault withdrew the Mirage-2000 from consideration. The company complained that, with the process delayed, it could not afford to maintain its production lines for the model, which had no other takers. Instead, it put forward a newer fighter, the Rafale, and immediately offered India the chance to buy 40 of the jets in what Dassault’s CEO described as a “single-source deal”—that is, a deal that bypassed the competition. The government did not take the offer.

By 2007, the air force was operating just 32 fighter squadrons, at least seven below its sanctioned strength. In August that year, the government finally invited formal proposals to fill the 126-plane order. Six models entered the fray: the Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon, the MiG-35, the Gripen, the F-16 and the F/A-18. The defence ministry released a description of the process to follow. “The proposals from the likely contenders would first be technically evaluated by a professional team to check for compliance” with the Indian Air Force’s operational requirements and other conditions, the document stated. “Extensive field trials would be carried out to evaluate the performance. Finally, the commercial proposals of the vendors, short-listed after technical and field evaluations, would be examined and compared.” It also laid down the guiding principles underlying this process—namely, that the “selection process should be competitive fair, transparent, so that best value for money is realised” and also that Indian defence industries should “get an opportunity to grow to global scales.”

The ministry made it explicitly clear that the winning vendor would have to reinvest half the value of the order in India. The vendors of each competing model clamoured to outdo each other with promises of what they could offer if selected. Boeing, maker of the F/A-18, proposed to collaborate with over a dozen Indian aerospace and defence companies, and many other partners. Lockheed Martin boasted that it had already established complete assembly lines for the F-16 in several countries outside its home in the United States. The consortium of European countries that makes the Eurofighter Typhoon, offered to bring India in as a partner in the fighter’s future development. Dassault, meanwhile, reported that the French government had permitted it to share sensitive technology with India under a Rafale deal. “When we talk about technology transfer, we mean full technology transfer and not in bits and pieces,” a company official told an interviewer.

In April 2009, multiple Indian newspapers reported that Dassault was out of the running after falling short of the required criteria in its technical bid. The Rafale was to be left out of upcoming field trials. A month later, though, Dassault was back in contention, reportedly with the help of some behind-the-scenes diplomacy by the French government. An anonymous defence-ministry official was quoted as saying that the defence-procurement board, under the defence ministry, had overridden the earlier disqualification since it was based on “only paper evaluation and the French company Dassault Aviation has now supplied the missing answers.”

All the contenders were tested in the Rajasthan desert and at the high altitude of Ladakh—two essential and gruelling theatres for the air force. While the Indian government deliberated, amid high-octane publicity and lobbying from the vendors and their respective governments, Dassault’s country manager, PV Rao, fell foul of the air force. Rao, effectively a local dealer for Dassault, had accused an air-force wing commander of demanding a bribe in connection with a parking slot for the Rafale at an annual defence exhibition organised by the defence ministry. The air force was reportedly irked that Rao never informed it of the incident before reporting it to an administrative officer, and barred him from dealing with IAF in the future. The wing commander was court-martialled and dismissed. Rao currently serves as a director for Dassault Aircraft Services India Limited, a wholly owned local subsidiary of the French company—an unlisted company operating in south Delhi.

In April 2011, the government shortlisted just two fighters: the Rafale and the Typhoon. Dassault and the Eurofighter consortium were asked to formulate commercial bids. This set off a string of visits by French officials to promote the Rafale deal, and from British officials—the United Kingdom is part of the Eurofighter consortium—backing the Typhoon.

That summer, the government closed a deal with Dassault to upgrade its fleet of 52 Mirage-2000s for around Rs 11,000 crore, translating to over $45 million for each aircraft. The defence columnist Ajai Shukla wrote two years later that the defence ministry had found the price shockingly high, and that air-force pilots thought Dassault had undermined its reputation by squeezing India hard over Mirage-2000 spares.

The defence ministry unsealed the commercial bids for the Rafale and Typhoon towards the end of 2011. Early in the next year, Dassault was declared the lowest bidder. The process was now to move on to commercial negotiations.

This was a huge boost for Dassault, which until then had been beleaguered. Even the French president declared, “We have been waiting for this day for 30 years.” Angelique Chrisafis, a journalist at _TheGuardian_, wrote that the selection would “be a shot in the arm for the battered French economy and the country’s economic pride.” Since closing its Mirage-2000 production lines, Dassault had struggled to sustain Rafale manufacturing as well. The warplane had been developed at great expense in anticipation of orders from both France and foreign countries, but for years the foreign orders had failed to come. The Rafale had already been considered and rejected by the air forces of South Korea, Morocco and Brazil, and Dassault had been desperate for a first foreign purchase—a factor that very likely influenced its position in the India proceedings.

But even after Dassault was declared the lowest bidder, the coveted order itself was slow to come.

First, the process behind Dassault’s selection was challenged by two opposition parliamentarians. One, a member of the Telugu Desam Party, alleged irregularities in the evaluation procedure. The other, Yashwant Sinha of the Bharatiya Janata Party, questioned the inclusion of a “life-cycle cost”—an estimated price for running and maintaining an aircraft over its service life—in the evaluations. The provisions for factoring this cost in were relatively new, and therefore unfamiliar to many in both the opposition and government.

AK Antony, the defence minister at the time, described his response to these challenges when interviewed by a newspaper earlier this year. He said that before presenting the deal to the cabinet committee on security, or CCS, “I had—as per the norm—approached the finance ministry for financial approval. The finance ministry said it could not accept the life-cycle cost clause in the agreement as it was a new concept to it. Simultaneously, I also received representations from many others, including some responsible then-opposition leaders, objecting to the lifecycle-cost clause.” This clause, Antony maintained, had been included in the evaluations because the air-force had insisted on it. He decided “to call the files, and made a clear noting to the effect that the final proposal must be sent to the CCS only after the dispute over the life-cycle cost clause is settled.”

Addressing the disputes meant a delay of several months. The defence ministry finally signed off on the evaluation process in July 2012. Negotiations between Dassault and the Indian government proceeded from there—with constant diplomatic prodding from the highest levels of the French government—but hit numerous hurdles. The French company, when originally outlining its offset plans, had said that HAL would be its main manufacturing partner. After winning the bid, Dassault signed a memorandum of understanding with Reliance Industries—the conglomerate now run by Mukesh Ambani, Anil’s older brother. Then, Dassault asked for separate contracts to split responsibility for the 18 warplanes it was to build itself and the 108 that HAL was to build under supervision. Again the government resisted.

In February 2014, AK Antony told journalists that a final deal was close, but that his ministry had almost exhausted its allotted annual budget. The deal would have to wait for the next financial year, on the other side of March. But with a general election in the coming months, the deal did not move further. The Congress-led government made way for Modi’s BJP-led alliance in May.

FROM THE TIME IT took power to the moment of Modi’s Paris announcement, the new government never wavered from the position that negotiations with Dassault were proceeding on terms set painstakingly over the years. Arun Jaitley, during his stint as defence minister until November 2014, reported as much to both houses of parliament.

The vendors that were out of the reckoning watched on with interest as the negotiations stretched on, and several lobbied for reconsideration. The Eurofighter consortium even offered to reduce its price and improve its terms on technological transfer and manufacturing in India. The government, however, stood firm by the outcome of the bidding process.

Even before the change in government, reports sporadically surfaced in the Indian press claiming that, over the course of the commercial negotiations with Dassault, the cost of the deal had massively overrun what the French company had first bid. After another spate of these, Dassault’s CEO, Eric Trappier, stated in February 2015, “our pricing remains the same from day one.” He dismissed attendant questions on the fate of the deal, saying, as he would continue to until weeks before Modi’s Paris visit, that a contract was close.

After Modi’s announcement, the serving defence minister, Parrikar, pivoted swiftly from his apparent bewilderment to mocking the previous government’s delay on the Rafale negotiations. On television, he criticised AK Antony’s decision to hold back proceedings until the questions raised over life-cycle costs could be resolved. He ignored the fact that the questions had first come from a member of his own party, the BJP. Antony, when asked about his decision in the newspaper interview earlier this year, responded with the question, “Did the present government scrap the life-cycle-cost clause while agreeing to purchase 36 Rafale planes?” The current government was twice asked in parliament about what life-cycle costs, if any, are included in the Rafale purchase. Both times, it refused to disclose details, stating only that the terms of the old negotiations and the new deal are not comparable.

After the original negotiations were scrapped, the Modi government took steps to loosen restrictions on private involvement in defence manufacturing. In 2016, it allowed foreign firms to acquire up to 49-percent ownership in Indian defence ventures without the need for official approvals. This paved the way for Dassault to invest in its joint venture with Reliance. That same year, an update to the defence procurement procedures allowed expenditures on services such as engineering, design, coding and training to count towards a vendor’s offset obligations—where before the rules ensured offset spending was focussed more narrowly on defence manufacturing and maintenance. The previous government had revoked permissions for offset expenditure on such services after a corruption scandal around the purchase of Agusta Westland helicopters, meant for flying government VIPs.

The 2016 procurement procedures, when published, left room for a policy on “strategic partners and partnerships” that was “to be notified separately.” This was a brainchild of the Modi administration, and was unveiled in 2017. It called for the government to simultaneously select private Indian companies and foreign vendors who would subsequently pair up to bid for defence contracts. The government reserved contracts in four sectors—fighter aircraft, submarines, helicopters and armoured fighting vehicles—for firms operating under the strategic-partner model.

Reports emerged in July 2018 that the navy, the air force and the finance department of the defence ministry had voiced concerns about the strategic-partnership policy, and particularly about the threat of monopolisation. The defence ministry formally approved the policy that same month.

The new policy has frozen all public-sector defence manufactures out of the four sectors that it covers. These sectors all have massive acquisition drives either on the horizon or already underway. HAL, which had so far been the main partner in every one of India’s defence-aviation collaborations with foreign firms, is now not even being considered for upcoming fighter projects.

In February 2018, Nirmala Sitharaman, the defence minister, reported to the parliament that the 2016 Rafale contract did not insist on any transfers of technology or licenced production of the aircraft in India. She argued that these conditions, which were central to the earlier negotiations, were “not sought as it would not have been cost-effective for a order of this size.” (A contract for a similar number of jets, thirty Su-30 fighter jets from Russia in 1996, included indigenous production by HAL, including transfer of technology.)

It is hard to escape the conclusion that by cancelling the original procurement process, the Modi government surrendered a huge advantage. Dassault was under great pressure to deliver new orders and prove the Rafale internationally when it first submitted a commercial bid. It also had to out-compete a rival bid by the Eurofighter consortium, and share advance technology and manufacturing with HAL. The terms of the negotiations remained those set by the Indian government. The Modi government turned the tables on his own administration. With India committed to a government-to-government deal with France, Dassault knew it was guaranteed the order, and could name a new price and terms without worrying about any competitive bids. By then the company had also secured Rafale orders from Qatar and Egypt, easing the pressure on it. To add to this, the provisions for the indigenous manufacturing of the Rafale that the French company had earlier resisted, and that India had stubbornly defended, are also now gone.

In 2016, while negotiations on the inter-governmental deal were underway, officials in the Indian law ministry had reportedly objected to weak liability clauses that favoured France at the expense of India. Among other things, France was said to be reluctant to put up a monetary guarantee for the deal, and insistent that French companies, and not the French government, face primary legal responsibility for any breach of contract. It is not clear whether these provisions survive in the final agreement.

Nor is it clear to what degree, and at what points, the government was aware of Reliance Group’s involvement in the deal. The timing of the amendment in 2015 that allowed Dassault to delay an official declaration of its offset partners suggests that the government was, at the least, enthusiastic to turn a blind eye to this question. Its avowals of continued ignorance ever since are also suspect. The defence ministry stated as late as in February 2018 that “no Indian Offset Partner for the 2016 deal for 36 Rafale Aircraft has been so far selected by the vendor.”

On 12 December 2017, Anil Ambani reportedly wrote a letter to Rahul Gandhi refuting the claims the latter had made in parliament. The letter said the partnership between Dassault and Reliance was an “independent agreement between two corporate private sector entities, and Governments had no role to play in this matter.” It is disingenuous to suggest an agreement between two private companies, when dealing with defence products, has nothing to do with the government, given the complex bureaucratic regulations that govern acquisition processes. He was able to get away with it because of the 2015 amendment allowing delayed disclosure, the same one that allowed the government to maintain its plausible deniability.

But air-force headquarters, replying to a Right to Information application I submitted earlier this year, said that the offset agreement in the Rafale deal was signed on the same day as the purchase agreement itself—in September 2016.

DASSAULT AND RELIANCE GROUP held a ceremony in October 2017 to lay the foundation stone for a manufacturing facility at a special economic zone in Nagpur. A press release from Dassault stated that the facility will be run by the companies’ joint venture, Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited, and “will manufacture components for the Legacy Falcon 2000 Series of Civil Jets manufactured by Dassault Aviation.” This is to count towards Dassault’s offset obligations, but offers little to indigenous defence manufacturing. It also announced an unrivalled foreign direct investment of over €100 million for defence in a single location. Reliance Group has not yet announced any investment of its own in the joint venture, in which it owns the larger and controlling share. Dassault has also put over €8 million into Reliance Airports Developers Private Limited, another subsidiary of Reliance Infrastructure, of which it now holds 35 percent. The Maharashtra government has contracted the company to run five airports in the state. The press release spoke of achieving, in unspecified future years, “the possible setting up of final assembly of Rafale and Falcon Aircraft.” Defence experts complain of local companies doing what they sometimes term “screw-driving”—basic assembling work that requires little new technology—instead of advanced production. (I reached out to Reliance companies and Dassault with detailed sets of questions, but have not yet received any answers.)

A former senior official close to Ambani, talking about his experience working with Reliance Group, told me that he did not think they were “suited for defence industries because that was not their DNA.” According to him, they were mainly about “trading and consumer industry.” Yet they were “playing the big game.” Neither did the company possess technical capabilities, nor a willingness to put a “strategic roadmap” in place. “They were looking at orders immediately and then based on orders looking at offsets coming in, how to use those offsets to build the capability.”

The senior official suggested that the belief that the defence industry had received a boost through Reliance’s participation in it was misplaced. “The entire thing is being controlled by Dassault. They are doing the entire work. So from a national perspective, yes, they will bring the business, people will be employed, job creation will be there, there will be some manufacturing, probably… nothing out of Reliance control because they are looking at their profit share, they won’t bother about technology development. That is the crux of the defence industry of the country.”

The official told me this is partly a game for land too.

Dassault and Reliance’s decision to set up the manufacturing facility in Nagpur came after the failure to secure land in Bangalore and Hyderabad—places of choice for defence manufacturers looking to set up shop. “It is about grabbing land first and then sitting on it and then waiting for right time for things to develop.” He told me Reliance’s effort “didn’t work in Bangalore. It didn’t work with Chandrababu Naidu [Andhra Pradesh]. They are quite cautious.” They had made it clear, according to the official, “no land grabbing, not giving any land at all unless you are serious about investment.”

The dignitaries at the ceremony included the French defence minister and France’s ambassador to India, as well as the BJP leaders Nitin Gadkari and Devendra Fadnavis. Gadkari, besides being the minister for roads and shipping, represents Nagpur, his home town, in parliament. Fadnavis is the chief minister of Maharashtra, and also hails from Nagpur. Addressing those gathered, Ambani told the story of how the Maharashtra government had come to allot to a Reliance Group company the land where the new facility was to be built.

“Initially, our French counterpart thought that we would be setting up the unit at Bengaluru or Hyderabad, where the aviation sector is well established,” Ambani said. “If not the two, they thought we may have a plant in Gujarat, for obvious reasons. But I said it’s Nagpur. I must say the first idea of coming to Nagpur was given to me by Mr Nitin Gadkari, who said that he will banish me from India if we went to any other place than Nagpur. Knowing Gadkari sahab’s persistence, commitment, vision, and his relationship with my late father, it was very difficult for me to say no to him. But I used the excuse to say, ‘Let me speak to the chief minister.’ … When I went and met the chief minister, he said, ‘So you have decided to come to Nagpur’. He didn’t even give me chance to ask him whether we should come to Nagpur. ‘Please tell me what you need, and everything you need will be done.’”

The hype and bonhomie presented at the ceremony hid the fact that Ambani’s group had defaulted on clearing payments on time for the land allotted, which led to the company incurring a financial penalty, and had faced pressure from the state government. Although the land had been allotted to the group by Maharashtra Airport Development Company, a state undertaking, in 2015, the group could only take full possession of it until 2017, once the transaction was finally complete. The company had also asked for the allotted land to be reduced from 289 to 104 hectares, for which it would have to reportedly pay a lower sum of Rs 63 crore. The senior official, who was working with Ambani during that period, told me how Reliance Group was not able to pay a second installment of Rs 38 crore on time. He wondered why the Maharashtra government continued to put its weight behind the group despite its shaky financial reputation. Indeed, not all state governments have shown the same patience for Reliance Group.

Reportedly, a proposal to create a shipbuilding facility in Andhra Pradesh, with a proposed initial investment of Rs 5,000 crore in 2016—the same year the group defaulted with its payment in Maharashtra—was hailed as one of the biggest investments the state had yet seen. However, more than two years later, media reports suggested that neither had the company shared an implementation plan with the government, nor had it made an initial advanced payment required to acquire the land it wanted. The Chandrababu Naidu government, wary of the company’s financial investors, told a media outlet that they were considering referring the company to the state’s investment board.

In July 2018, Trappier said in a newspaper interview that a larger order of some 200 Rafales would be required for Dassault to transfer technology and manufacturing to India at a “competitive level.” The French company was, in essence, dictating terms to the Indian government, in a sharp reversal of roles from the original negotiations. According to Trappier, Dassault was working with Reliance Group in place of HAL because “we were told that HAL was fully booked. We talked to Reliance and they were very keen to create such capabilities in India. They have a track record and the financial capability as well.”

However, HAL, it seems, was not overflowing with orders. Its chairman told a news channel in 2017 that the company’s “current order book isn’t encouraging.” HAL was scheduled to deliver 36 licence-built Su-30 fighters to the Indian government by the end of the 2019 financial year, and had no orders for fixed-wing aircraft beyond that. Overall, the chairman estimated, the company had enough business to last it only two and a half years.

As for Trappier’s faith in Reliance Group’s track record and financial capability, it defied reality.

{THREE}

THE DEATH OF BUSINESS TYCOON Dhirubhai Ambani in 2002 was followed by four years of bitter dispute between his two sons, Mukesh and Anil, over the fate of Reliance Industries. When their split was formalised in 2006, Anil walked away with the conglomerate’s telecom, power, natural-resources and financial-services businesses, which then formed the core of what he dubbed Reliance Group.

Anil already had a reputation for flamboyance and impetuousness, fuelled in part by his marriage to a former Bollywood actor that his father had for years refused to permit. Now, with his own corporation to run, he had a chance to prove his detractors wrong.

He started off well. When he took Reliance Power public, in early 2008, it took just minutes to sell $3 billion worth of stock in an initial public offering. But by the end of the 2014 financial year, with Reliance Group’s debt soaring, Ambani began selling off assets, and even entire businesses.

Reliance Group’s cement operation went to a rival conglomerate in 2016. At the end of the 2017 financial year, Reliance Power’s net worth had eroded to around Rs 21,000 crore—less than the $3 billion it raised in its first public offering about a decade ago. The company offloaded two major operations—power transmission in the west of the country, and power generation and distribution in Mumbai—towards the end of 2017. Recently, Reliance Power approached the courts for an increase in the amount of coal it is permitted to mine for its power plant at Sasan in Madhya Pradesh. (Of the three plants it had earlier been awarded contracts for, this is the only plant that the corporation built.) Without permission to mine more coal, the company argued in court, it faces massive losses, and might have to close down this plant too.

By June 2017, Reliance Communications alone owed over Rs 45,000 crore, prompting global credit-rating agencies to downgrade the company’s debt. It began to close down operations. One foreign lender, the China Development Bank, asked the National Company Law Tribunal to declare the company insolvent. After crisis talks in Beijing, Ambani announced that Reliance Communications would sell assets to Mukesh’s mobile network, Jio. This was delayed while other creditors challenged the proposal and began further insolvency proceedings, but the courts finally cleared the sale of some assets to Jio in August 2018. Even this was reported to have brought in less than half of what the company owed in all. Creditors continue to pursue the company.

“I think Mukesh Ambani is backing him directly,” the former senior official told me. “There is a larger family strategy.” It was Mukesh’s Reliance Industries that Dassault first proposed to partner with after being declared the lowest bidder in the 126-jet competition, in 2012. In less than two weeks after the defence ministry declared to go with Dassault, Mukesh signed a pact with the company, but subsequently chose not to pursue business with it for no known reason. In October 2016, his brother entered into a joint venture with Dassault and became its offset partner. “Dassault was with them, he”—Mukesh—“had taken control of Dassault behavior in the MMRCA related issue,” referring to the 126-warplane order. “And then suddenly he walks out of it, this guy”—Anil—“jumps in. So fundamentally it’s continuity of Reliance in the game.”

The two brothers, according to the official close to Anil Ambani, were merely “showing opposition to each other,” while actually “playing together in this process.”

Before 2015, Reliance Group had no serious investment in defence manufacturing. In the aftermath of Modi’s Paris announcement, it began pushing the idea that defence deals would stem the corporation’s head-spinning decline. Anil Ambani spoke publicly of defence manufacturing as a major driver of future growth for Reliance Group. The chairman of Reliance Infrastructure—a subsidiary of Reliance Group, which in turn counts Reliance Defence among its subsidiaries—declared to shareholders in 2016 that he saw opportunities in the defence sector worth Rs 1 lakh crore per year for the next 15 years.

The corporation assembled a team of well-known defence experts to bolster credibility. However, it soon became clear to many of them that there was no clear long-term vision. “Because Reliance has no technical capability,” one of them told me, it was important to “pick up a project, understand the technique and know nuances of it—a lot of investment has to come towards building capability.” Instead, it seemed more interested in attracting offset partners that would give a fillip to its business, rather than deliberate on the nature of the orders themselves from a perspective of technology development. The moment they realised that they were “more of trophies for them,” as one official said, they left.

But even the offset spending Reliance Group has secured from the Rafale deal has not been enough to turn it around. Nor have other deals for the conglomerate’s defence businesses—several of which show a pattern familiar from the Rafale saga, of government actions boosting Ambani’s fortunes. How much more of the government’s defence spending is destined for Ambani’s corporation is an open question, but so is whether Reliance Group can survive long enough to see much of it at all.

Reliance Infrastructure, the parent of Reliance Defence Limited, reported total debts of over Rs 18,000 crore in its latest financial filings, compared to a net worth of around Rs 24,000 crore. As highly leveraged as it is, it is still the only one of Ambani’s four listed core companies with a debt that does not exceed its worth. Reliance Defence counts 13 subsidiaries, including Reliance Aerostructure, which holds the majority stake in Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited. These companies are not publicly listed, and do not report financial figures. Reliance Infrastructure controls Reliance Naval and Engineering, via a special-purpose vehicle called Reliance Defence Systems. This is Reliance Group’s ship-building operation, which is vying for several major building projects for the India navy, and in the last two years was reportedly shortlisted in competitions for contracts worth over Rs 1 lakh crore. It is also the only one of Reliance Group’s defence companies that is publicly listed, and is compelled to disclose information on its finances and workings. As such, it is the best available window into the state and style of Reliance Group’s defence business.

ON 23 DECEMBER 2014, the defence acquisition council, a body of the defence ministry, approved a proposal to procure six indigenously built submarines at an estimated cost of around Rs 80,000 crore. The exact price was to be determined through competitive bidding, and the council formed a committee to identify suitable Indian shipyards. The defence minister at the time stated that the committee was required to submit the report indicating their preference of both the potential companies and shipyards within three months. Which companies were selected through this process, and whether the bidding happened, is not yet publicly known. In February 2018, I filed an RTI application with the defence ministry to ascertain which shipyards had been selected and what criteria had been applied in doing so, but received no reply.

Three days before the proposal for the submarines was approved, Reliance Defence Systems Private Limited was incorporated. And three months later, it would acquire a major stake in one of the country’s largest ship building companies listed on the National Stock Exchange—Pipavav Shipyard. The only trouble with Pipavav was that it was on the verge of bankruptcy. Various investors had reportedly offered to take a large stake in the company and shore it up, but through February 2015 Pipavav’s promoters appeared to show no immediate interest. Then, in early March, they announced that Reliance Group was aiming to gain management control over the next six months.

Pipavav’s debts exceeded Rs 6,000 crore, and the shipyard had not paid any interest on its loans in at least two years. But Pipavav did have, as a lure for potential investors, tie-ups with the French government-owned DCNS and the Russian government-owned JSC Zvyozdochka, both shipbuilders with prior experience in making or maintaining vessels for the Indian navy. And, in addition to a modest list of existing orders, Pipavav was in the running to construct two amphibious warships—officially called landing platforms or docks, or LPDs—having submitted a tender in 2013.

With Reliance’s proposed takeover underway, Pipavav Shipyard began a process to restructure its debt. This is a process of settling creditors’ claims through some combination of converting debt into equity—essentially, surrendering parts of the company to them—and raising funds from additional investors.

Debt restructuring is a sign of acute financial trouble, and typically cause to treat a company with extreme caution until it successfully refinances itself. But for Pipavav, its entry into the process heralded a wave of fresh business opportunities. Its fresh business opportunities also appeared to coincide with Modi’s foreign trips to Russia.

In July 2015, with Modi in Russia for a diplomatic summit, the Russian government reportedly announced that it had chosen Pipavav to partner with the Russian firm JSC Zvyozdochka, on a project to build frigates for the Indian navy. When the National Stock Exchange asked Pipavav for details of the deal, the company responded that the relevant correspondence was “between Government of India and Government of Russia,” and so, confidential. Soon after this, Pipavav informed the NSE that it had partnered with JSC Zvyozdochka to refit Indian submarines.

In late December, with Modi again on a diplomatic visit to Russia, the Indian media reported that Reliance Defence and Russia’s United Shipbuilding Corporation were soon to announce a partnership to vie for the frigate project. When asked about this deal by the NSE, Pipavav’s response was that the “negotiations are a subset of strategic dialogues on defence cooperation between Government of India and … the Government of Russia.”

Reliance Group announced at the end of December that it had completed its takeover of Pipavav Shipyard. It went on to change the company’s name, first to Reliance Defence and Engineering Limited, and later to Reliance Naval and Engineering Limited—traded as RNaval on National Stock Exchange.

This was about the time that the government released the 2016 update of the defence procurement procedures, with a chapter on the strategic-partnership policy—the one that would allow a private company, chosen by the defence ministry, to collaborate with a foreign company. Even before that policy was finally made public the following year, along with the pledge that submarine orders would be reserved for private companies, Ambani was telling RNaval’s shareholders that he endorsed the strategic-partnership model, and that their company was one of only two private Indian firms that would qualify to build new submarines. Media reports affirming this appeared as well, and identified the second contender as the engineering firm Larsen & Toubro. Mazagon Dock, a state-owned shipbuilder that was already building submarines for the navy, was not on the list. The government never released details of how it came to shortlist just these two private firms, despite being challenged on the question in parliament.

Reliance Group finally put forward a plan for restructuring RNaval’s debt and refinancing the shipyard in February 2017. A couple of months later, the shipyard’s shareholders approved a refinancing scheme that saw some lenders given a one-time payment of Rs 163 crore, and promised to compensate others with equity. IDBI, a state-owned bank that led a consortium of RNaval’s main creditors—notably, all of them government-owned banks—allowed the company to exit debt restructuring. This still marked an improvement in RNaval’s financial standing, though its debts remained enormous. It had continued to post losses since Reliance Group’s takeover, and its combined debt had continued to grow. As of March 2017, the debt was nearly Rs 9,000 crore.

The situation grew even more peculiar. In June, the defence ministry terminated an order for naval vessels that it had earlier signed with another private shipbuilder, ABG Shipyard, citing the company’s terrible financial health. However, RNaval had secured a large contract to supply fast-patrol ships to the coast guard that January, while still in the process of restructuring its debt. One company was able to continue securing defence contracts despite its financial distress, while the other was cut out of a lucrative deal because of it.

The same month that the navy annulled its order with ABG Shipyard, news appeared that RNaval and Larsen & Toubro had been invited to submit fresh bids for building amphibious warships, the LPDs. When the government first invited bids for the LPD project, in 2013, it called for the building of four vessels in two different shipyards. It would select through tendering a private or public shipyard to build two vessels, and nominate what it deemed a suitable state-owned shipyard to make another two, after a transfer of know-how from the original shipyard. (Defence procurement procedures allow such nomination-based manufacturing for naval projects.) The government had earlier nominated Hindustan Shipyard Limited to build the first two ships, and Pipavav Shipyard and others had bid for the rest. In early 2017, however, the government decided that all four ships would be built by a single shipyard to be selected via a new round of tenders. Reliance Defence and Larsen & Toubro, both private firms, were reportedly the only firms shortlisted to bid for this.

For as long as RNaval was still in the restructuring process, it was not eligible to be considered. Interestingly, RNaval’s refinancing plan was published three days after the government’s decision to cancel Hindustan Shipyard’s nomination for the project. The invitation for RNaval to submit a fresh LPD tender came very shortly after the company exited debt restructuring.

The government offered no formal explanation for why it had taken a two-ship order away from Hindustan Shipyard, and excluded it from fresh bidding for LPDs. The shipyard’s annual performance reports of the last three years, published by the ministry of heavy industries, reported that it was now being utilised to only around half of its capacity.

The publication of the strategic-partnership policy also came shortly after RNaval finished restructuring its debt. Soon after that, the defence ministry reportedly listed Reliance Defence and Larsen & Toubro as the only viable Indian partners for Project 75I—an effort to build six advanced non-nuclear submarines for the navy. It also reportedly listed four potential foreign manufacturers for the project.

Of the foreign firms, France’s DCNS was the most entrenched in India—it was already the foreign partner in Mazagon Dock’s ongoing submarine project. Mazagon Dock itself had a solid track record for submarine construction—it had already delivered two submarines under its existing order. But with the strategic-partnership policy having excluded state-owned firms, the DCNS-Mazagon partnership was not a viable option in the competition for the new submarines. DCNS’s other existing partner was the one it had signed with RNaval back when it was still Pipavav Shipyard.

In early 2018, Reliance Naval proposed a modified refinancing scheme to the one that had been approved by shareholders and allowed it to exit debt restructuring the previous year. The earlier plan to convert some debt into equity, which might have meant loss of management control for the Reliance Naval if enough stake was transferred to creditors, was now gone. Many lenders had still not approved the corporation’s plans for resolving its debt with them. As of March, the uncertainty over how the corporation planned to sustain RNaval continued.

RNaval’s financial statement for 2017-18 was dismal. Its net worth had shrunk to Rs 443 crore—compared to a net worth of Rs 1,447 crore in the previous financial year. An independent audit submitted as part of the financial report concluded that “the company has been incurring cash losses, its net worth has been substantially eroded as on 31st March 2018, loans have been called back by secured lenders, current liabilities are substantially higher than current assets … these conditions indicate the existence of a material uncertainty that may cast significant doubt on the company’s ability to continue as going concern.”

To add to RNaval’s problems, the former promoters of Pipavav Shipyard and RNaval sent each other legal notices for breaching the purchase agreement and causing losses of over Rs 8,000 crore and Rs 5,000 crore respectively to each other.

By May 2018, several of RNaval’s creditors asked the Ahmedabad bench of the National Company Law Tribunal—a bankruptcy court—to initiate insolvency proceedings against the shipyard, which would force it to liquidate its assets to pay its debts. This added to an earlier set of insolvency cases filed the previous year. The company had tried to repel those by repeatedly presenting reasons why they should not be immediately heard, which the tribunal had already once declared “nothing but an invention to somehow gain time.” All these cases remain pending before the court.

Much hope had earlier rested on the fact that, as a candidate for the LPD and advanced submarine projects, RNaval was in the running for orders worth over Rs 1 lakh crore, or $14 billion. But the shipyard has apparently now lost its chance at the most valuable of these, for the $8-billion Project 75I. Recent media reports indicate that the government has gone back on its plan to run the project under the strategic partnership policy. RNaval was already running behind schedule on its existing orders, and its finances remained dire, leaving Larsen & Toubro as the only plausible private option. But this left the government in a “single-vendor situation”—a turn of events that the strategic-partnership policy was explicitly meant to avoid. After all of its contortions to keep Mazagon Dock out of the Project 75I competition, the government reportedly reconsidered its options and nominated the state-owned shipbuilder for the entire six-submarine order.

This has implications for the LPD order too, as without RNaval, the government could face a single-vendor situation here as well. To further complicate matters, RNaval alleged in June 2018 that a senior naval officer with a son working at Larsen & Toubro had been favouring the rival firm. The following month, the navy invited executives of both firms for a bid opening—a standard procedure meant to guarantee transparency. This came on the cusp of a new session of parliament, with the government anticipating more accusations that it had favoured Reliance Group in the Rafale deal. The executives were made to wait, and then told, without any explanation, that the unsealing had been postponed.

RNaval’s plans to build navy frigates in partnership with Russia also fell through. The Indian government eventually ordered two vessels directly from a Russian shipyard, and an additional two, to be built with Russian assistance, from the state-owned Goa Shipyard.

In March 2018, over a hundred local contractors and merchants who had worked with the RNaval shipyard staged a sit-in outside the company’s administrative office in Rajula, Gujarat, during which they demanded their dues from several years’ worth of unpaid bills. The protest continued until late June, with no effect. When I spoke to several of the protestors in July, they told me that the shipyard had effectively come to a standstill. Bhavesh Lakhani, a contractor, said that numerous unfinished ships from earlier orders, including the fast-patrol vessels for the coast guard and several vessels for the navy, “are all lying just like that, unattended.” They gave me a list of 191 vendors to whom Reliance Naval owes amounts as low as Rs 80,000 to as high as Rs 3.25 crore and they included suppliers of electrical material to contractors who provided labour.

{FOUR}

THE TRAJECTORY OF PROJECT 75I demonstrates the Modi government’s failure to find workable answers to old questions plaguing Indian defence manufacturing. The initial exclusion of state-owned firms and the stubborn consideration for a severely indebted private company, only for the contract to then go to a state-owned firm anyway, only succeeded in delaying an urgent defence order. On this test, the strategic-partnership policy failed.

The Rafale deal will present another stern examination. Here, the policy retroactively formalised the arrangement that Dassault and the government had already reached, with the state-owned HAL shunted out in favour of a struggling private corporation with no aerospace experience whatsoever. How this will enhance India’s defence industry remains to be seen.

Even after all the bureaucratic somersaults and political recriminations, Modi’s administration has brought the country right back to where it started: being heavily reliant on often uncompetitive state-owned firms and failing to galvanise private defence production. The technological balance is skewed, as much as ever, towards foreign companies and the government appears to have no discernible strategy for correcting it.

Indian companies are coming into the defence business “in a hurry to make money,” a person with decades of experience in defence aerospace told me. He pointed to Reliance Group as an example. “Their approach is to explore a new area of opportunity like defence, and without putting much into capability try to make the maximum out of it. … They are all chartered accountants. That is why they are there to make money. That is okay with the trading business, but in defence long-term strategy is needed. And that is the problem with these kinds of guys.”

But that in itself may not be a reason to dismiss private defence manufacturing. India does have the capability to create a more enhanced defence ecosystem if small and medium enterprises are taken on board. The problem, the head of one such firm making specialised defence systems and components told me, is that they have never been given a chance. “Those who are not powerful, no one gives them anything,” he said.

Even with all the promises of major defence spending and indigenous manufacturing, he continued, “Today I am surviving because of exports.” When trying to get anything out of Indian officials, “you struggle like anything. You ‘look after them’—you know, all those things. Then you still run around, ‘Sir sir sir, _ho gaya_, sir? Sign _kar do_.’ _Woh bolega ke nahi, mera_ mood _nahi hai,_ sign _nahi karunga_.” (“Is it done, sir? Please sign.” He will say “No, I’m not in the mood, I won’t sign.”) And domestic firms are often expected to provide products and services at massive, unsustainable discounts simply “because they’re Indian. … Someone at a high position told me, ‘Boss, you have to show the cost benefit to the nation.’”

The head of the private firm pointed to other countries that have successful domestic defence industries. “Go to the USA and try selling something to US defence. It’s impossible. You have to be local.” In Israel, “they will actually have a list, who all vendors are there in Israel,” and anything that is available locally is given preference. The Indian government could also say “this component is here in India, it won’t come from outside. … Put that part in the contract.”

The expert in defence aerospace agreed that more needs to be done to incubate small and medium-sized enterprises. “SMEs are very important to the aerospace business,” he said. “You need to respect them and have a good working relationship. They are the ones who build the capability.” Without a supply chain of engines, radars, weapons systems and other specialised components that such firms can provide, no country can hope to execute advanced indigenous projects.

“Without having a supply chain in place, the policy for strategic partners won’t work,” he continued. “It’s a stupid policy. None of the Indian companies qualify to become a strategic partner … None of them have experience in aerospace business.”

On the other hand, the ease with which Reliance managed to lodge itself in a complex industry speaks of the political access it has historically enjoyed. Anil Ambani “was involved in political game,” the official who worked with him said. He made the mention of Prime Minister Modi part of a “routine discussion” in the office. “The impression he generates to everybody that he is very close [to the prime minister].” The impression that the colleagues around Anil Ambani received was that “everything can be bought, can be set up, business can be made.”

The government recently started a competition for the production of 110 fighter jets in India with foreign collaboration. As the strategic-partnership policy covers fighter jets, the Indian partner in the project is guaranteed to be a private firm. The Adani Group—Modi’s oldest corporate backer—is eyeing a deal in partnership with the Swedish manufacturer Saab.

“I think it’s idiotic that tomorrow Adani comes into this business because of money power, with no experience, and becomes an aircraft manufacturer,” the senior official said. “After the selection of a foreign partner, HAL should be chosen as the strategic partner along with other private companies. But HAL should be the lead integrator”—heading the assembly and testing of the finished fighters—“and other companies should help creating a supply chain.”

But, he cautioned, state-owned manufacturers “have to set a lot of things right themselves, and they can’t depend on the government forever. They should run the business in a way that they earn their salaries from export of equipment, and not from the government.”

HAL’s future is now uncertain. Frozen out of the Rafale deal and likely the new 110-fighter competition, it has little hope of any new infusion of orders or expertise. The long-awaited Tejas, which HAL is meant to build, has entered partial service, continues to miss deadlines and is yet to go into full-fledged production. For all its failings, the firm remains the only Indian manufacturer with meaningful experience in defence aeronautics. With no viable replacement in sight, it is not in the national interest to let HAL fade.

Reliance Group’s aerospace venture, by contrast, is well positioned for more business. India’s air force remains desperate for fighters: squadron numbers remain low, the Tejas remains far from ready, and ageing Mig-21s continue, quite literally, to fall out of the sky. The 36 Rafales now ordered are far from enough to fill the original 126-fighter gap in the fleet. Dassault and the government have both dropped hints of follow-up orders. There is also the talk of acquiring Rafales for the navy, which needs new carrier-based fighters after testing a naval variant of the Tejas and finding it far from capable. And if Reliance Group struggles in the meantime to sustain its aerospace interests on its own, it might, as the former senior official at Reliance suggested to me, have a hidden backer—Mukesh Ambani.

The official said that many foreign companies had treated Reliance Group with a lot of caution. The corporation had sent representatives to Russia and Ukraine “to enter into tie-ups with various companies to grow the business. But these companies would also see the viability of their business partnering with a company that has nothing on ground. Eventually, many of them didn’t show any interest.” Why, he wondered aloud, did “Dassault choose a company which has been in debt and had no experience?” That, he said, “is something one should find out.”

http://www.caravanmagazine.in/business/india-gambles-defence-interests-reliance-group


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## Hindustani78

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...ng-on-rafale-rahul-gandhi/article25010807.ece
New Delhi, September 22, 2018 00:22 IST
Updated: September 22, 2018 00:22 IST
In a sharp attack on Minister , Congress president Rahul Gandhi on Thursday accused the minister of ‘lying’ about the Rafale deal and demanded resignation.

Tagging a news report where the former Chief of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) T.S. Raju claimed that the Bengaluru-based public sector undertaking could have built fifth Generation fighters jet in India if the Modi government had concluded the deal that the previous government had negotiated, Mr. Gandhi took to twitter to target the minister and play on the words _Mantri _( Minister).

“The RM (Rafale Minister) tasked with defending corruption has been caught lying again. The former HAL Chief, TS Raju, has nailed the minister lie, that HAL didn’t have the capability to build the fifth Generation fighter jet. The minister position is untenable & the minister must resign,” the Congress chief said.

The Congress said that after Mr. Raju’s revelation the Minister has “no moral authority to continue even for a second and reiterated its demand to investigate the deal by a Joint Parliamentary Committee.”

“The [former] chief executive of HAL Shri T. Suvarna Raju has said that HAL had actually signed the work-share contract and that it was available with the Government...he says that everything had been sorted out. It completely and absolutely demolishes the web of lies and insinuations which this government has been trying to construct,” former Union Minister Manish Tewari told reporters at a briefing.

For over six months now, the Congress has been alleging that the NDA’s Rafale deal involved ‘huge corruption’ that resulted in a loss of ₹41,000 crore to the public exchequer.

The Congress claims UPA agreed to buy 126 fighter jets, out of which 108 aircraft were to be made by HAL under transfer of technology and the price of each aircraft was fixed at ₹526 crore. However, the government decided to buy only 36 Rafale jets through a fresh order and the Congress alleged that each aircraft is now coming at a cost of ₹1,670 crore.

The government formally didn’t react to the claims made by the former HAL boss but official sources called the report quoting Mr. Raju as “factually incorrect.”

“Since the work share between Dassault Aviation and HAL was never agreed upon, the statement claiming Lower Life Cycle cost is completely presumptive,” an official said.

Countering this, Mr. Tewari asked why the government had not come on record. “The government doesn’t have the courage to come out and address a press conference. So they do this surreptitiously through putting out notes,” he claimed.

**********
https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...aders-raise-twitter-storm/article25011146.ece
New Delhi, September 22, 2018 01:07 IST
Updated: September 22, 2018 01:07 IST

Former French President Francois Hollande’s statement that Dassault Aviation had no role in deciding their Indian partner triggered a flurry of reaction from Congress leaders on social media over the Rafale deal.

Senior Congress leader P. Chidambaram pulled up the government over the revelations. “In the NDA-negotiated Rafale aircraft deal, we have got no aircraft, we have got only lies. What is the new lie that the government will put out in response to Mr. Hollande? Defence Minister has been called out again! This time by then President of France, Mr. Hollande,” he tweeted.

Congress communication chief Randeep Surjewala targeted Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

“PM Modi hid behind the smoke screen of the web of lies that he had weaved. Not only did Modiji lie but he made the Defence Minister, the Finance Minister and the Law Minister lie along side him. The collusion, the conspiracy and the complicity of the Modi Govt. in denying a 30,000 crore contract to public sector undertaking HAL in favour of Modiji’s crony has now been exposed by the former French President,” Mr. Surjewala said.

“The truth is now out in the open for everyone to see and adjudge. Modiji, it is now clear that Chowkidar hi Gunahgar hai (watchman is now the offender),” he alleged.

Congress spokesperson Manish Tewari tweeted: “President (former) Francois Hollande should also enlighten us how the price went up from 590 crore in 2012 to 1,690 crore in 2015 per Rafale fighter jet?”


**************
https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...rafale-deal/article25013374.ece?homepage=true
New Delhi, September 22, 2018 09:15 IST
Updated: September 22, 2018 10:15 IST

The French government on Friday said it was in no manner involved in the choice of Indian industrial partners for the Rafale fighter jet deal, asserting that French companies have the full freedom to select Indian firms for the contract.

The statement by the French government came following a French media report which quoted former President Francois Hollande as saying that *the Indian government proposed the Anil Ambani-run Reliance Defence* as the partner for Dassault Aviation in the ₹ 58,000 crore Rafale deal and France did not have a choice.

“The French government is in no manner involved in the choice of Indian industrial partners who have been, are being, or will be selected by French companies,” it said.

The report in _Mediapart_, a French language publication, quoted Mr. Hollande as saying, “It was the Indian government that proposed this service group, and Dassault which negotiated with Ambani. We had no choice, we took the interlocutor who was given to us.”

Asked who selected Reliance as a partner and why, Mr. Hollande replied, “We had no say in this regard.”

Dassault Aviation, the makers of Rafale, had chosen Reliance Defence as its partner to fulfill offset obligations of the deal. The government has been maintaining it did not have any role in selection of the offset partner by Dassault.

*Dassault’s statement*
In a statement, Dassault Aviation said it has decided to make a partnership with the Reliance Defence in accordance with the policy of ‘Make in India’.

“This partnership has led to the creation of the Dassault Reliance Aerospace Ltd (DRAL) joint-venture in February 2017. Dassault Aviation and Reliance have built a plant in Nagpur for manufacturing parts for Falcon and Rafale aircraft,” the company said.

The French government said, “In accordance with India’s acquisition procedure, French companies have the full freedom to choose the Indian partner companies that they consider to be the most relevant, then present for the Indian government’s approval the offsets projects that they wish to execute in India with these local partners so as to fulfil their obligations in this regard.”

The Congress has been accusing massive irregularities in the deal, alleging that the government was procuring each aircraft at a cost of over ₹ 1,670 crore as against ₹ 526 crore finalised by the UPA government when it was negotiating procurement of 126 Rafale jets.

The Congress has also alleged that the government was benefitting Reliance Defence through the deal as the company has set up a joint venture with Dassault Aviation to execute the offset obligation for the deal.

The Opposition parties have also alleged that the Reliance Defence was formed just 12 days before the announcement of the Rafale deal by the Prime Minister on 10 April 2015. The Reliance group has rejected the charges.

The French government said the inter-governmental agreement it signed with India for supplying 36 Rafale aircraft concerns its obligations solely with regard to ensuring the delivery and quality of the aircraft.

“As it happens, agreements have already been signed by French companies with many Indian firms, both public and private, under the framework of Indian laws,” the statement said.

The Congress has also been demanding answers from the government on why State-run aerospace major HAL was not involved in the deal as finalised during the UPA.

Under India’s offset policy, foreign defence entities are mandated to spend at least 30 per cent of the total contract value in India through procurement of components or setting up of research and development facilities.

Ten days after India sealed the government-to-government agreement on the Rafale deal, Reliance Defence and Dassault had announced a joint venture (JV) in the aerospace sector and a year later, the foundation stone of a manufacturing facility was laid in Mihan, Nagpur.

*************
https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...ahul-gandhi/article25014380.ece?homepage=true
New Delhi , September 22, 2018 12:41 IST
Updated: September 22, 2018 12:41 IST
* The Opposition has been accusing the NDA govt. of choosing Reliance Defence over state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. *
Upping the ante on the Rafale issue, Congress president Rahul Gandhi on Saturday alleged Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Anil Ambani jointly carried out a “surgical strike” on the defence forces.

His renewed attack on Mr. Modi came a day after a French media report quoted former French president Francois Hollande as purportedly saying that the Indian government proposed Ambani’s Reliance Defence as the partner for Dassault Aviation in the ₹58,000 crore Rafale jet fighter deal and France did not have a choice.

“The PM and Anil Ambani jointly carried out ... SURGICAL STRIKE on the Indian Defence forces. Modi Ji you dishonoured the blood of our martyred soldiers. Shame on you. You betrayed India’s soul (sic),” Mr. Gandhi tweeted.

Mr. Modi had announced the procurement of a batch of 36 Rafale jets after holding talks with then French President Hollande on April 10, 2015 in Paris.

The Opposition has been accusing the government of choosing Reliance Defence over state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd to benefit the private firm though it did not have any experience in the aerospace sector.

*************
https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...al-congress/article25014158.ece?homepage=true
After the French government and Dassault Aviation contradicted former President Francois Hollande’s claim in choosing Indian industrial partners in the multi-million dollar Rafale jet deal, the Congress on Saturday said the French statement “conceals more than it reveals”.

“The French statement conceals more than it reveals. The French government knows verbal interactions between former President Francois Hollande and Indian interlocutors are minuted and would emerge.

“Speculation of French Parliamentary hearing into Rafale and access to administration documents under France’s Freedom of Information Law 1978 rife,” Congress spokesperson Manish Tewari tweeted.

“What French government/corporate entity has just ended up doing is making Rafale procurement a veritable domestic issue in French *politics *also.

“By saying Hollande is being economical with truth they have set the stage for facts/documents to become a torrent.”

Countering the attack, Bharatiya Janata Party leader and Union Minister Ananth Kumar tweeted: “Nailing the lie on its head —— misinformation about Rafael deal, Dassault being called out by the French government.”

The statement by the French government issued here on late Friday came after Mr. Hollande’s reported claim that the Indian government suggested a particular private firm for Rafale offset contract.

In response to the claim, the statement said: “The French government is in no manner involved in the choice of Indian industrial partners who have been, are being or will be selected by French companies.”

Dassault Aviation, the makers of the Rafale jets, in a statement also on Friday night, said: “This offsets contract is delivered in compliance with the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2016 regulations. In this framework, and in accordance with the policy of ‘Make in India’, Dassault Aviation has decided to make a partnership with India’s Reliance Group. This is Dassault Aviation’s choice.”

The deal to purchase 36 Rafale fighter jets from France was announced by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in 2015 and *signed in 2016*.

The UPA government was earlier negotiating a deal to procure 126 Rafale jets, with 18 to come in flyaway condition and 108 to be manufactured by HAL under licence.

The Modi government has repeatedly said it was Dassault that chose its India partner for offsets and that the government had no say in the deal.

***************

There was “clear-cut” corruption in the Rafale deal and asked Prime Minister Narendra Modi to clear his position on the issue.

Attack on Mr. Modi during a press conference came a day after former French president Francois Hollande was quoted as saying that the Indian government proposed Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence as the partner for Dassault Aviation in the ₹58,000 crore Rafale jet fighter deal.

The Prime Minister must clear his stand on the Rafale deal after Hollande’s remarks.

“Why is the Prime Minister silent? It is a matter related to defence forces, it is a matter related to National Security,” he said.

He also claimed that various defence ministers of the NDA government have been lying to protect Mr. Modi.

Demanded a joint parliamentary committee probe and that Mr. Hollande also be called. “We are absolutely convinced that the Prime Minister is corrupt... He must clarify,”.

“It is very important for the Prime Minister now to either accept Mr. Hollande’s statement or state that Mr. Hollande is lying and tell what the truth is,”.

Mr. Modi had announced the procurement of a batch of 36 Rafale jets after holding talks with then French president Hollande on April 10, 2015 in Paris.

The opposition party has been accusing the government of choosing Reliance Defence over state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd to benefit the private firm though it did not have any experience in the aerospace sector.

*************
https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...tions-rajnath-tells-rahul/article25015428.ece

“The government has issued a statement on the issue. Let the verification of the report take place. It will clear the situation, it will reveal the truth” 

“One should think four times before levelling any baseless allegation. One should not make allegations without proof,” Mr. Singh said to a question on what he would like to tell Mr. Gandhi who has been dragging the name of Prime Minister Narendra Modi in the deal.

Reacting to Mr. Hollande’s reported remark, which is at variance with the Indian government’s position on the Rafale deal, a Defence Ministry spokesman had Friday said, “The report referring to former French President Hollande’s statement that government of India insisted upon a particular firm as offset partner for Dassault Aviation in Rafale is being verified.”

Mr. Hollande was quoted in a French media report as purportedly saying that the Indian government proposed Anil Ambani-led Reliance Defence as the partner for Dassault Aviation in the ₹ 58,000 crore Rafale jet fighter deal and France did not have a choice.

*************

*Reliance and Dassault had entered into agreement as early as 2012*.

The BJP on Saturday condemned as “shameful and irresponsible” remarks against Narendra Modi over the Rafale deal, saying no president of any party has ever used such language against a prime minister.

He also ruled out a joint parliamentary committee probe saying it cannot be done to satisfy the ego of an “ill-informed leader”.

Accused of “playing into the hands of Pakistan and China” by seeking the details of the Rafale fighter jets.

He also alleged that there was pressure for extraneous considerations and “bribe” for not finalising the Rafale deal during the UPA rule despite holding negotiations for years.

************

*Reliance enters defence manufacture with Rafale maker*
February 13, 2012 13:42 IST

According to a statement by the French company: 'Dassault Aviation, a major player in the global aerospace industry, has entered into an MoU with Reliance Industries Ltd, India's largest private sector company, for pursuing strategic opportunities of collaboration in the area of complex manufacturing and support in India.'

Both Reliance and Dassault will have to inform the ministry of defence about the tie-up, since such ventures have to be cleared by the government before they get into actual on-ground partnership.

Reliance Industries has been eyeing the relatively closed field of defence manufacturing and homeland security for the past year or so. In fact Reliance chairman Mukesh Ambani handpicked Dr Vivek Lall, a former top executive with Boeing last year to lead the company's foray into the sector.

Dr Lall was appointed president and CEO in Ambani's office to spearhead the growth in new ventures in April 2011. According to top industry sources, Lall has been given the mandate to explore possibilities in the defence and homeland security sector.

*********

Dr Vivek Lall, an enterprising aerospace and defence expert, Dr. Lall began his technical education at* Canada’s Carleton University* and earned his bachelor's degree in Mechanical Engineering.

Lockheed is the 3rd largest defence equipment manufacturer and contractorin world while first in the US.The rules prevent hiring foreign nationals from working there.











Ministry of Defence
22-September, 2018 16:39 IST
*Clarification on Offset Policy *

Unnecessary controversies are being sought to be created following media reports regarding a statement purportedly made by the former French President, Francois Hollande, concerning the selection of Reliance Defence as the Offset partner by Dassault, the manufacturers of Rafale aircraft.

The reported statement perhaps needs to be seen in its full context – where the French media has raised issues of conflict of interest involving persons close to the former President. His subsequent statements are also relevant in this regard.

The Government has stated earlier and again reiterates that it had no role in the selection of Reliance Defence as the Offset partner.

For a rounded appreciation of this matter, it may be worthwhile to briefly dwell upon why and how Offset Policy came into play. The Offset Policy was formally announced for the first time in 2005 and has been revised several times. To leverage its huge arm-imports in order to develop a strong indigenous industry, a flow-back arrangement is made in the defence contracts, which is widely known as offsets, and constitutes a certain percentage of the contract value. The key objectives of the Defence Offset Policy is to leverage the capital acquisitions to develop Indian defence industry by fostering development of internationally competitive enterprises; augmenting capacity for research and development in defence sector and to encourage development of synergistic sector like civil aerospace and internal security. The offset can be discharged by many means such as direct purchase of eligible products/services, FDI in joint ventures and investment towards equipment and transfer of technology. As per Defence Offset Guidelines, the foreign Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) is free to select any Indian company as its offset partner.

It has been reported that a JV between Reliance Defence and Dassault Aviation came into being in February, 2017. This is a purely commercial arrangement between two private companies. Incidentally, media reports of February, 2012 suggest that Dassault Aviation, within two weeks of being declared the lowest bidder for procurement of 126 aircraft by the previous Government, had entered into a pact for partnership with Reliance Industries in Defence sector.

Dassault Aviation has issued a Press Release stating that it has signed partnership agreement with several companies and is negotiating with hundred odd other companies. As per the guidelines, the vendor is to provide the details of the offset partners either at the time of seeking offset credit or one year prior to discharge of offset obligation, which in this case will be due from 2020.

In view of above, it is once again reiterated that the Government of India has no role in the selection of Indian Offset partner which is a commercial decision of the OEM..


************
https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...nce-defence/article25015770.ece?homepage=true

* “The government has stated earlier and again reiterates that it had no role in the selection of Reliance Defence as the offset partner,” the Defence Ministry said. *

After explosive revelations by* former French President Francois Hollande* on the Rafale deal, defence ministry said on Saturday that “unnecessary controversies” are being sought to be created on the purported statement and reiterated that the Government had “no role in the selection of Reliance Defence as the offset partner.”

French government as well as Dassault Aviation (DA) the manufacturer of Rafale jets too issued statements reiterating the procurement procedure while neither directly denied the main point raised by Mr. Hollande.

“As per the guidelines, the vendor is to provide the details of the offset partners either at the time of seeking offset credit or one year prior to discharge of offset obligation, which in this case will be due from 2020,” the ministry said.

*Commercial decision of DA*
Reiterating that it is a commercial decision of the DA to tie up with Reliance Defence, the company owned by Anil Ambani, the Ministry referred to some media reports of February, 2012 which suggest that DA, within two weeks of being declared the lowest bidder for procurement of 126 aircraft by the UPA Government, had entered into a pact for partnership with Reliance Industries in defence sector.

However, it must be noted that the 2012 pact was with Reliance Industries of Mukesh Ambani which had later exited the defence business.

*'No role of Indian industrial partners'*
*French Government said in a statement* that they had no role in “the choice of Indian industrial partners” while DA said it was their choice of selecting Reliance Defence as the local offset partner. However, the two statement did not directly deny the claim by Mr. Hollande that it was the Indian Government which proposed the name of Reliance Defence.

“The French government is in no manner involved in the choice of Indian industrial partners who have been, are being, or will be selected by French companies. In accordance with India’s acquisition procedure, French companies have the full freedom to choose the Indian partner companies…,” Spokesperson of the French Ministry of Europe and Foreign Affairs said in a statement late on Friday.

The statement added that the Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) signed on September 23, 2016 between the French and Indian governments for 36 Rafale aircraft concerns the obligations of the French government “solely with regard to ensuring the delivery and quality of this equipment.”

*Hollande's statement*
Mr. Hollande told a French news outlet on Friday that his government didn’t have “a choice” in the selection of Reliance Defence. “It is the Indian government who has proposed this service group and it is Dassault that has negotiated with Ambani. We didn’t have a choice, we took the interlocutor that was given to us,” he was quoted as saying.

DA said that in addition to the IGA, there is a separate contract which commits them to “make compensation investments (offsets) in India” worth 50 per cent of the value of the purchase.

“In this framework, and in accordance with the policy of Make in India, DA has decided to make a partnership with India’s Reliance Group. This is DA’s choice, as CEO Eric Trappier had explained in an interview...,” the company said in a statement.

Under this, DA and Reliance group have set up a Joint Venture Dassault Reliance Aerospace Ltd in Nagpur Nagpur for “manufacturing parts for Falcon and Rafale aircraft.”

Both the statements pointed that several other such agreements were signed by other French companies with both public and private firms in India. “Other negotiations are ongoing with a hundred-odd other potential partners,” DA added.


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## Hindustani78

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...ays-jaitley/article25019787.ece?homepage=true


  PTI 
New Delhi, September 23, 2018 11:30 IST
Updated: September 23, 2018 11:37 IST
Finance Minister Arun Jaitley on Sunday said former French President Francois Hollande contradicted his own statement with regard to the Rafale deal and that *neither the Indian nor the French government played any role* in selection of Reliance as offset partner by Dassault.

A political controversy has erupted over *Hollande’s statement* that the Indian government wanted the Anil Ambani-led Reliance Defence to be chosen as offset partner of Dassault, the manufacturer of the Rafale fighter jets.

“The French Government and M/s Dassault Aviation have categorically not denied the correctness of the former President’s first statement.

“The French Government has stated that the decision with regard to the offset contracts of Dassault Aviation are taken by the company and not the Government,” Mr. Jaitley said in a Facebook post.

“Dassault Aviation itself has suggested that they have entered into multiple contracts with several public sector and private sector companies with regard to the offset contracts and the decision is entirely theirs,” he added.

The partners (Dassault and Reliance) selected themselves as former President Hollande now says, Mr. Jaitley said in the post titled ‘A Questionable Statement Which Circumstances & Facts Demolish’

“This contradicts his first questionable statement which the French Government and Dassault have denied. The facts contradict the same. His second statement in Montreal, Canada to AFP (news agency) makes the veracity of his first statement even more questionable,” the minister said.

AFP reported that Hollande told it on the sidelines of a meeting in Canada Friday that *France *“did not choose Reliance in any way”. When asked whether India had put pressure on Reliance and Dassault to work together, Hollande said he was unaware and “only Dassault can comment on this”.

*Full text of Mr. Jaitley’s statement*
A controversy is sought to be created on the basis of a statement made by the former French President Hollande, that the Reliance Defence ‘partnership’ with Dassault Aviation was entered at the suggestion of the Indian Government. In a subsequent statement the former President has sought to suggest that Reliance Defence emerged on the scene after the agreement with the Indian Government was entered into. He has, in a subsequent statement, said that he is ‘not aware’ if Government ever lobbied for Reliance Defence and that ‘the partners chose themselves’. Truth cannot have two versions.

The French Government and M/s Dassault Aviation have categorically denied the correctness of the former President’s first statement. The French Government has stated that the decision with regard to the offset contracts of Dassault Aviation are taken by the company and not the Government. Dassault Aviation itself has suggested that they have entered into multiple contracts with several public sector and private sector companies with regard to the offset contracts and the decision is entirely theirs.

Without commenting on the correctness or otherwise of a controversy in the French media, it may be mentioned that the former French President, Hollande, is countering statement made against him with regard to a conflict of interest in his dealing with the Reliance Defence.

The accuracy of the statements made by the individuals may be questioned but circumstances never lie. This is evident from the following facts:


There is no ‘partnership’, as suggested by the former President, with regard to the 36 Rafale aircrafts to be supplied by Dassault Aviation to the Government of India. It was a Government to Government agreement under which the complete weaponised aircrafts are to come to the Indian Air Force. No manufacturing is to be done in India. It is, therefore, erroneous for anybody to suggest that there is a ‘partnership’ in the supply of the 36 Rafale aircrafts.
M/s. Reliance Industries Ltd., in February, 2012, had entered into an MoU with Dassault Aviation. This was reported by the PTI on 12.2.2012. This was at a stage when the contract relating to 126 Rafale aircrafts, of which 18 were to be manufactured in France and 108 in India, was at an advance stage of consideration by the UPA Government. Rahul Gandhi’s misplaced criticism could equally apply to the 2012 MoU.
The offset contract ensures investment by the original equipment supplier i.e. Dassault Aviation, in India, in as much as they make purchases from Indian companies to the extent of fifty percent (in this case). The choice of the offset partner under the 2005 offset policy is of M/s Dassault Aviation and they have selected several public and private sector companies to make the supplies.
The offset partner is selected entirely by the Dassault Aviation, the original equipment manufacturer, and neither the French Government and nor the Indian Government has any say in the matter.
It is no coincidence that on 30.8.2018 Shri Rahul Gandhi had tweeted that “Globalised corruption. This #Rafale aircraft really does fly far and fast! It's also going to drop some big bunker buster bombs in the next couple of weeks.”
The former French President’s first statement rhymes with Rahul Gandhi’s prediction.


The Congress Party’s official handle on 31.8.2018 had carried the tweet of one of its leader “It is evident that Anil Ambani bribed President Hollande through his actor-partner to get the Dassault partnership.” For the Congress Party to allege that a former President had been bribed by an Indian business group and then use him as a primary witness, particularly when he is facing criticism for an alleged conflict of interest within his own country.
The former French President’s first statement that the Indian business group’s name was proposed by Government of India has now been substituted by him to the effect that the suggestion he is ‘not aware’ of the Government of India ever lobbied for Reliance Defence. He further said that the ‘partners’ chose themselves (AFP Report dated 22.9.2018).
Rahul Gandhi has made an absurd suggestion that the interest of Indian soldiers has been compromised with. By whom? The UPA which delayed the acquisition which would have added to the Military’s combat ability or the NDA which expedited the same at a lower cost.
The conclusion

One Reliance Group was a part of this deal since 2012. It dropped out of defence production. The other Reliance Group was already in defence. They are not partners in the Rafale deal. They have no contract with either Government of India or Government of France. They were not selected as one of the many offset partners by any Government. ‘The partners (Dassault and Reliance) selected themselves’ as former President Hollande now says. This contradicts his first questionable statement which the French Government and Dassault have denied. The facts contradict the same. His second statement in Montreal, Canada to AFP makes the veracity of his first statement even more questionable.

*************

Senior Supreme Court advocate Prashant Bhushan on Sunday said the Rafale deal was the “largest scam in India” and urged the Centre to initiate a Joint Parliamentary Committee (JPC) probe into the matter.

Addressing reporters in New Delhi, Senior Supreme Court advocate questioned how Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence, the Indian offset partner of French firm Dassault Aviation, could be involved in the project as “most of his companies are in debt.”

“This is not only the largest scam in India, but is one where national security has been severely compromised. 

Prime Minister had announced the procurement of a batch of 36 Rafale jets after holding talks with then French President Francois Hollande on April 10, 2015 in Paris.

Opposition Congress has accused the government of choosing Reliance Defence over state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. to benefit the private firm though it did not have any experience in the aerospace sector.

Lashing out at Mr. Modi and Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman, Mr. Bhushan charged the Centre with making IAF officials “lie” about the deal.

“You have severely compromised national security, broke the Indian Air Force’s back, looted people’s money and defamed a public sector unit (HAL),” he said.

“The government should immediately agree for a JPC probe and put all the papers before it. There is no [element] of national security [as being claimed by the government]. They only want to hide the huge scam in defence purchase,” he said.

He further suggested that Mr. Ambani’s company could not have entered the deal without the Defence Minister’s approval.

Mr. Hollande’s reported comments that New Delhi had proposed Reliance Defence as the Indian partner for the contract has escalated into a major political row, even as the French government said it had no say in the choice of the Indian industrial partner for the multi-billion dollar deal.

However, Dassault Aviation refuted Mr. Hollande’s claims and said that it was their decision to partner with Reliance.

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## Hindustani78

Union Home Minister Rajnath Singh (second from right) speaks during the 21st meeting of the Central Zonal Council, in Lucknow on Monday, September 24, 2018. Uttar Pradesh CM Yogi Adityanath (third from left), Uttarakhand CM Trivendra Singh Rawat (first from right) and representatives of other states are also seen. | Photo Credit:  PTI 

Five Zonal Councils -- central, western, northern, southern and eastern -- were established under the States Reorganisation Act, 1956.

The Central Zonal Council comprises Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh and Uttarakhand. The council’s meeting aims at addressing common concerns of the participating states and settling cross-border concerns, if any.

Besides Uttar Pradesh and Uttarakhand Chief Ministers Yogi Adityanath and Trivendra Singh Rawat respectively, the meeting was attended by representatives from Chhattisgarh and Madhya Pradesh as well.

On the Kailash Mansarovar issue, Mr. Singh said, “I think the matter will be resolved. The problem is not increasing. We are ready to talk to everyone. As far as terrorism is concerned, all security agencies and forces are working in coordination.”

“Terrorism in Kailash Mansarovar is an issue which is enemy nations-sponsored,” he said.

The Centre on Saturday had asserted that it did not have any role in the selection of Reliance Defence as a partner for Dassault while France said it was in “no manner” involved in the choice of any Indian industrial associate for the contract.

_AFP_ reported that Mr. Hollande told it on the sidelines of a meeting in Canada on Friday that France “did not choose Reliance in any way.” When asked whether India had put pressure on Reliance and Dassault to work together, Mr. Hollande said he was unaware and “only Dassault can comment on this.”

Mr. Hollande, who was French President when the ₹58,000 crore deal was announced, was quoted as saying by French publication _Mediapart_ that France was given “no choice” on the selection of the Indian partner for Dassault and the Indian government proposed the name of Reliance as offset partner for the French aerospace giant.

“After clarifications from Hollande there is no room for any doubt about the deal. The enemy nations are making it an issue to gain political mileage in 2019 Lok Sabha polls,” Singh said.

“The enemies of Indian nation does not have any issue left so it is raking up Rafale deal issue,” the Home Minister told reporters after a meeting of the Central Zonal Council here.

************
https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...-questions-modi-on-rafale/article25030305.ece
* “Why was contract given to Anil Ambani’s firm?” *

Launching a fresh attack on Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the Rafale jet deal, Congress president Rahul Gandhi accused him of “snatching ₹30,000 crore from the poor and the youth” and handing it over to industrialist Anil Ambani. Mr. Gandhi is in Amethi on a two-day tour.

A probe by a Joint Parliamentary Committee would bring out the truth, he asserted. Mr. Gandhi dared Mr. Modi to explain former French president Francois Hollande’s statement that it was the BJP government that picked Mr. Ambani’s company for the deal.

“The main issue is that the former French President has called Narendra Modiji a thief and now Modiji has to explain why he is calling him a thief,” he told reporters in Amethi.

*Four questions*
Mr. Gandhi also responded to Finance Minister Arun Jaitley’s clarification. “Constitute a JPC. All truth will come out... But Narendra Modiji, who is Arun Jaitleyji’s boss, cannot do it. I asked him four questions in Parliament House, he could not answer even one. He gives big speeches, goes to Chhattisgarh and Rajasthan...but he wont utter a word on Rafale and Anil Ambani. He won’t speak because the Chowkidar [Modi] has committed a theft through Anil Ambani.”

Earlier addressing a gathering in Jais, in Amethi, Mr. Gandhi asked Mr. Modi to explain to the nation why the contract for Rafale was snatched away from HAL and given to Mr. Ambani.

*10-day-old company*
The Amethi MP said Mr. Anil Ambani was handed the contract though his company came into existence only 10 days before the deal was signed. “Anil Ambaniji never made a single aircraft in his life. He has a debt of ₹45,000 crore. We don’t know how Anil Ambaniji figured out he was going to get the contract 10 days before it happened,” said Mr. Gandhi.

Welcome hoardings proclaimed him as a “Shiv Bhakt.” He was also felicitated by kanwariyas. At the event, Mr. Gandhi was seen accepting an image of Lord Shiva gifted by Congress supporters.

***************






* Congress delegation submits memorandum on ‘biggest defence purchase scam’ *

The Congress on Monday sought a probe into the Rafale deal by Central Vigilance Commissioner (CVC) K.V. Chowdary. In a 10-page memorandum to the CVC it demanded that all the relevant documents be seized and an FIR filed against those responsible for causing a loss to public exchequer.

An 11-member delegation, led by Leader of the Opposition in the Rajya Sabha, Ghulamnabi Azad and including senior leaders like Ahmed Patel, Anand Sharma, Kapil Sibal, Jairam Ramesh, and Manish Tewari among others, handed over the memorandum to Mr. Chowdary where the party has pegged the loss at ₹41,000 crore.

“This is the biggest scam in the defence acquisition history of the country and we have asked the CVC to take cognisance and register a first information report against those guilty…It is the responsibility of the CVC to seize all the relevant documents as they could be destroyed,” Mr. Sharma told reporters.

In the memorandum, the Congress not only alleged a 300% escalation in the Rafale deal in violation of the Defence Procurement Policy but also attached former French President Francois Hollande’s statement that the government of India pushed for Reliance as a partner of Dassault Aviation, the maker of the Rafale fighters.

“Neither the French government nor the Indian government including Defence Ministry and Prime Minister have contradicted the truth of Hollande's assertions," the Congress said in its note.

“In fact, the current French Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Jean-Baptiste Lemoyne, has admitted the fact that PM Modi had asked Hollande to give ₹30,000 crore to Reliance by calling it an 'observation' in an interview to Radio J of France.”

The party also submitted former Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) chief T.S. Raju’s statement where he claimed that HAL had signed a work-share contract with Dassault.

“The government is bound to disclose the price of 36 aircraft to scrutiny by CVC, in light of the serious allegations of corruption and loss of money to the public exchequer,” read the Congress’s note that called NDA’s Rafale deal as “stark cronyism.”

The Congress’s submission to the CVC comes a week after approaching the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) of India for a forensic audit.

“We find a strange statement [on the CAG] by the Finance Minister yesterday…They set the tone in advance for what the government would like the CAG to do,” Congress MP Abhishek Singhvi said.

On Sunday, in an interview, Finance Minister Arun Jaitley had said that the CAG would study the prices of the Rafale deal done by the NDA government and the previous one negotiated by the UPA.

Former Finance Minister P. Chidambaram too targeted Mr. Jaitley for saying that “truth cannot have two versions”, referring to two “different” statements by Mr. Hollande including one where he [Mr. Hollande] said that he wasn’t aware how Dassault chose Reliance as its partner.

“‘Truth cannot have two versions’ says FM. Absolutely correct. Since, according to FM, there are two versions, what is the best way to find out which version is 'true'? Either (1) order an inquiry or (2) toss a coin. I suppose the FM would prefer to toss a coin (preferably with 'head' on both sides)!” said Mr. Chidambaram.


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## Hindustani78

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...was-stalled-says-congress/article25041547.ece
* Ombudsman was not appointed to avoid probe into Rafale deal: Sibal *
Continuing to pressure Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s government over the Rafale deal, the Congress on Tuesday alleged that the Modi government never appointed the anti-corruption ombudsman Lokpal to avoid an investigation into the multi-billion dollar fighter jet deal.

Addressing a press conference along with party spokespersons Priyanka Chaturvedi and Jaiveer Shergil, former Union Minister Kapil Sibal said, “I will tell the Prime Minister that it’s only now we know why you have not appointed the Lokpal so far. If there was a Lokpal, truth would have come out.”

“Prime Minister, please forget about your _acche din_ [good days] and bring _sachche din_ [truthful days] and speak the truth,” he added, urging Mr. Modi to break his silence.

The party also rubbished the BJP’s allegation that Congress chief Rahul Gandhi wanted the Rafale deal scrapped to help a company with connections to his brother-in-law Robert Vadra. When the “government has been caught red-handed, it is resorting to mudslinging and abuse”.

“The tender was issued in 2007 August, and on December 12, 2012, it was opened ... and in March 13, 2014, the Congress government gave the offset contract to state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.,” spokesperson Randeep Surjewala told presspersons.

*‘Whose PM?’*
Making a counter allegation, the Congress said Prime Minister Narendra Modi gave it to Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence.

“Are you Ambani’s PM, or the country’s Prime Minister,” he asked.

“To every Air Force officer and Jawan who has served India. To the family of every martyred Indian fighter pilot. To every person who ever worked for HAL. We hear your pain. We understand how you feel. We will bring to justice all those who dishonoured and stole from you,” Mr. Gandhi tweeted.

On Monday, the BJP alleged that Mr. Gandhi was involved in a conspiracy that had an “international dimension”, and former French President Francois Hollande was part of the “nexus” to sabotage the deal.

Union Minister of State for Agriculture Gajendra Shekhawat on Monday alleged that the UPA government had backtracked from the multi-billion dollar deal after a private company linked to Mr. Vadra was not chosen as a broker. “The Agriculture Minister was defending ‘Maximum Support Price’ to Reliance,” Mr. Sibal said.


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## Hindustani78

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...-sitharaman/article25082388.ece?homepage=true
Chennai, September 29, 2018 18:34 IST
Updated: September 29, 2018 18:36 IST

* The defence minister also took a swipe at Congress president Rahul Gandhi’s August 30 tweet. *

Union *Defence *Minister Nirmala Sitharaman on Saturday said former French President Francois Hollande’s claims on the Rafale deal has come at a time when he himself was facing allegations that his associate had received some funds for some purpose.

Speaking to reporters at the Officers Training Academy in Chennai, she said, “... here was the former president of France who himself is facing an allegation of his associate having received some funds for some purpose. It (allegation) may be true or may not be true. But in such a situation, the former president saying this...”

On September 21, a French media report quoted Mr. Hollande as purportedly saying that the Indian government proposed Reliance Defence as partner for Dassault Aviation in the ₹ 58,000 crore Rafale jet fighter deal and France did not have a choice.

The Defence Minister also took a swipe at Congress president Rahul Gandhi’s August 30 tweet, saying he seemed to be predicting Mr. Hollande’s actions well in advance.

“...it is done well in advance. It is very interesting,” she said.

On August 30, Mr. Gandhi tweeted “Globalised corruption. This #Rafale aircraft really does fly far and fast! It’s also going to drop some big bunker buster bombs in the next couple of weeks. Modi ji please tell Anil, there is a big problem in France.”

To a question on much-delayed S-400 deal with Russia, Smt Sitharaman said the deal was almost at a stage where it could be finalised.

Asked if the ‘surgical strike’ across the border, the second anniversary of which is being observed on Saturday, has deterred intrusions, she said a lot of them were being eliminated at the border itself and they were not allowed to come in.

“I would believe that action of this kind would deter Pakistan in training and sending terrorists,” she said.

On reports that a defence ministry official had raised objections on-record to the Rafale deal before it was signed in 2016, Smt Sitharaman said various committees hold discussions for every procurement,

“During talks every opinion is recorded, differential opinions are also recorded. But after that, when the decision has to be taken, all of them have to come on the same page and take a call,” she said.


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## Hindustani78

* Rafale deal: Chidambaram insists on probe *


  Special Correspondent 
New Delhi, September 30, 2018 22:42 IST
Updated: September 30, 2018 22:42 IST





* We can give a dozen reasons why the Rafale deal must be investigated, he says *
Responding to Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman’s contention that there are no grounds to order a probe into the Rafale deal, former Finance Minister and Congress leader P. Chidambaram has listed three reasons why a probe is needed, including on why the BJP government scrapped an earlier agreement to buy 126 aircraft.

The Congress has been demanding that a joint parliamentary committee be instituted to probe the deal, which the Opposition parties allege had been signed without following the established protocol.

“Defence Minister asks ‘Why should I order an inquiry into the Rafale purchase?’ Here are the three TOP reasons: Why did the government scrap the earlier agreement on 126 aircraft that had been approved by every authority including the Indian Air Force,” Mr. Chidambaram said in a series of tweets on Sunday.

*Offset queries*
He questioned the government for not suggesting the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited as the offset partner. Ms. Sitharaman claimed at a press conference in Chennai on Saturday that the talks between Rafale producers Dassault Aviation and HAL failed.

“If the price negotiated by the NDA government was indeed cheaper by 9 per cent, why did the government decide to buy only 36 aircraft and not all the 126 agreed upon earlier,” Mr. Chidambaram reiterated the question raised by former Defence Minister A.K. Antony at a press conference held by the Congress earlier.

The BJP government has been claiming that the Congress is raising questions on the Rafale deal because of its discomfort at seeing the Defence Ministry run without brokers and dalals (middlemen). Ms. Sitharaman had instead blamed the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government for failing to conclude the Rafale agreement and causing a reduction in Indian Air Force (IAF) squadrons from 42 to 33. “If the Defence Minister wants a 4th or 5th or 6th reason, we are ready with a dozen reasons,” Mr. Chidambaram added.

She said the NDA government has been taking care of HAL far better than their predecessors. “They did not attend to HAL. Every year, I have given ₹20,000 crore worth of projects to HAL. But the previous UPA government gave just ₹10,000 crore projects,” she said.


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## gangarambihari

this deal is caught under politics .


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## Hindustani78

gangarambihari said:


> this deal is caught under politics .



Not really, Rafale Fighter plane deal is linked to National security of Republic of India.


https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/did-not-support-modi-on-rafale-deal-pawar/article25100605.ece
Beed, October 02, 2018 01:33 IST
Updated: October 02, 2018 01:34 IST
Under flak for “defending” Prime Minister Narendra Modi in the controversial Rafale deal, NCP chief Sharad Pawar on Monday rejected the charge, saying he would “never” do that.

“Some people have criticised me saying I supported him. I have not supported him. I did not and will never,” Mr. Pawar said at a party meeting here in the Marathwada region.

Mr. Pawar had caused a flutter with his remarks that he did not think that people had doubts about Mr. Modi’s intentions in the purchase of fighter jets from France.

Objecting to the remarks, NCP founder member Tariq Anwar and general secretary Munaf Hakim quit the party last week.

The statement had come at a time when the Congress has launched a pointed attack on the Prime Minister and is trying to forge an alliance with the NCP for future polls. The NCP had said that Pawar was quoted out of context by the media.

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## gangarambihari

Hindustani78 said:


> Not really, Rafale Fighter plane deal is linked to National security of Republic of India.
> 
> 
> https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/did-not-support-modi-on-rafale-deal-pawar/article25100605.ece
> Beed, October 02, 2018 01:33 IST
> Updated: October 02, 2018 01:34 IST
> Under flak for “defending” Prime Minister Narendra Modi in the controversial Rafale deal, NCP chief Sharad Pawar on Monday rejected the charge, saying he would “never” do that.
> 
> “Some people have criticised me saying I supported him. I have not supported him. I did not and will never,” Mr. Pawar said at a party meeting here in the Marathwada region.
> 
> Mr. Pawar had caused a flutter with his remarks that he did not think that people had doubts about Mr. Modi’s intentions in the purchase of fighter jets from France.
> 
> Objecting to the remarks, NCP founder member Tariq Anwar and general secretary Munaf Hakim quit the party last week.
> 
> The statement had come at a time when the Congress has launched a pointed attack on the Prime Minister and is trying to forge an alliance with the NCP for future polls. The NCP had said that Pawar was quoted out of context by the media.



one thing is suspicious why anil ambanis single name was given ? there are thousands of big business houses who can equate with anil ambani ?


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## rajiv sharma

gangarambihari said:


> one thing is suspicious why anil ambanis single name was given ? there are thousands of big business houses who can equate with anil ambani ?


many things are not clear to me also , let me share few , why mohan das karam chand gandhi's single name was given for the father so the nation ?? why nehroo's name was given for prime minister of independent bharat ????? why *rajiv khan so called gandhi* took oath soon after the death of *indira khan *when there were many senior able leaders present in this so called political party khangress . munna baal ki khal okardni hai to kisi ki bhi esi ki tesi ho sakti hai , chahe woh khuda / bhagwan kyo nan ho .

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## gangarambihari

rajiv sharma said:


> many things are not clear to me also , let me share few , why mohan das karam chand gandhi's single name was given for the father so the nation ?? why nehroo's name was given for prime minister of independent bharat ????? why *rajiv khan so called gandhi* took oath soon after the death of *indira khan *when there were many senior able leaders present in this so called political party khangress . munna baal ki khal okardni hai to kisi ki bhi esi ki tesi ho sakti hai , chahe woh khuda / bhagwan kyo nan ho .



because father of gandhi did not know he was going to get a son,
you want nathu brahman for father of nation or modi ? 
nehru was the most eligible secular leader available at that time , and he proved it.
only a RSS propagandist will call rajiv a khan
what congress gained on international level you sanghis have vasted for lifetime , our image has been devastated , we were respected earlier for our secular image .

i don't want to expose you on a pakistani forum .you are behaving like an extremist .
tell me why modi gave a single name ?


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## Hindustani78

gangarambihari said:


> one thing is suspicious why anil ambanis single name was given ? there are thousands of big business houses who can equate with anil ambani ?



There are many Multi National Companies Directors who have been arrested by the Indian Intelligence Bureau and even Red corner notices have been issued for thier extraditions. From Reliance Group's, advance telecom equipment has been transferred to other nations but here its about the Transfer of Technology which has been transferred without the Indian Establishment approval such as cable technology, server technology, telecommunication exchange units, wireless technology, telephone and mobile production technology along with the experts who are Indian Citizens. Indian Intelligence Bureau is even having the names of the experts, professionals, telecomm engineers who have transferred the advance sensitive technology. Now Indian Intelligence Bureau is even checking companies for the transfer of technology linked to optics technology , lens technology and laser technology which is used to cut diamonds etc.


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## Hindustani78

* Rafale, S-400 deals are like a booster dose to IAF: Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa *
 
New Delhi, October 03, 2018 14:11 IST
Updated: October 03, 2018 17:28 IST

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...t-iaf-chief/article25111152.ece?homepage=true





Air Chief Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa addresses the media ahead of Air Force Day, in New Delhi on October 3, 2018. | Photo Credit:  PTI 


* “We have got a good package, got a lot of advantages in Rafale deal,” he says. *
Acquisition of the French Rafale fighter aircraft and the Russian S-400 air defence system would go a long way in addressing the depleting squadron strength of the Indian Air Force (IAF), Air Chief Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa said on Wednesday.

“We had reached an impasse in the MMRCA [Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft] negotiations. We had only three options — wait and hope for the best, withdraw the Request For Proposal (RFP) and start over again or do an emergency purchase... Both the Rafale and the S-400 are like a booster dose to the IAF,” Mr. Dhanoa said at the annual press conference ahead of the Air Force Day on October 8.

He flagged the falling fighter squadron strength as the biggest concern for the IAF. The 36 Rafale and the 123 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) will arrest the depleting strength but LCA-Mk2 is required to increase the numbers, he stated.

Asked if the IAF was consulted before the deal for 36 Rafales was announced by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in Paris, Mr. Dhanoa said, “At the appropriate level the IAF was consulted. IAF had presented the govt with some options.”

*PTI adds...*

“Rafale is a good aircraft. It will be game-changer when it comes to the subcontinent,” he said.

“We have got a good package, got a lot of advantages in Rafale deal,” Mr. Dhanoa said.

The Opposition led by the Congress has been accusing the government of benefiting Anil Ambani’s Reliance *Defence *Ltd. from the Rafale deal. The BJP has dismissed all the allegations as false.

The Rafale controversy took a new turn last month after Francois Hollande, who was French President when the ₹58,000 crore deal was announced, was quoted as saying by French publication _Mediapart_ that France was given “no choice” on selection of the Indian partner for Dassault. The Indian government proposed the name of Reliance as offset partner for the French aerospace giant, he said.

Mr. Modi had announced the procurement of 36 Rafale fighters after holding talks with Hollande on April 10, 2015, in Paris.

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## rajiv sharma

gangarambihari said:


> because father of gandhi did not know he was going to get a son,
> you want nathu brahman for father of nation or modi ?
> nehru was the most eligible secular leader available at that time , and he proved it.
> only a RSS propagandist will call rajiv a khan
> what congress gained on international level you sanghis have vasted for lifetime , our image has been devastated , we were respected earlier for our secular image .
> 
> i don't want to expose you on a pakistani forum .you are behaving like an extremist .
> tell me why modi gave a single name ?


*takhliya !*


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## Hindustani78

* Rafale deal: Prashant Bhushan, Arun Shourie knock at CBI’s doors *


  PTI 
New Delhi, October 04, 2018 18:54 IST
Updated: October 04, 2018 18:59 IST
https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...t-cbi-doors/article25123790.ece?homepage=true





Lawyer Prashant Bhushan and former Union Minister Arun Shourie outside the CBI headquarters after submitting a complaint on Rafale deal in New Delhi on October 4, 2018. | Photo Credit:  R.V. Moorthy 


Lawyer Prashant Bhushan and former Union Minister Arun Shourie met CBI Director Alok Verma on October 4, demanding a probe into the alleged corruption in the Rafale aircraft deal and offset contract.

Along with a “detailed” complaint under the Prevention of Corruption Act, Mr. Bhushan and Mr. Shourie also submitted documents buttressing their arguments for the need of probe. They asked the agency chief to take permission of the government to initiate the probe in accordance with the law.

“CBI Director said he will look into it very carefully. We will take appropriate action,” Mr. Bhushan told reporters after coming out of the CBI headquarters.


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## Hindustani78

https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op...e-on-rafale/article25125552.ece?homepage=true
L’affaire Rafale’ has become the Achilles heel of the National Democratic Alliance (NDA) government. The incontrovertible truth is that in August 2007. The Indian Air Force found two aircraft technically equipped — the Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon. The tender had made it clear that all bids were to be inclusive of cost of initial purchase, transfer of technology, licensed production etc.

On December 12, 2012, Rafale emerged as the L-1 vendor with a publicly disclosed price of ₹526.1 crore per aircraft. Out of 126 aircraft, 18 were to come from France in a flyaway condition, with the remaining 108 aircraft to be manufactured with transfer of technology. In addition, there was a 50%-offset clause requiring Dassault Aviation to invest 50% of the contract value by way of investment . On March 12, 2014, a ‘workshare agreement’ worth approximately ₹36,000 crore was signed by Dassault Aviation; 70% of the work on the 108 aircraft to be was to be done by PAL and 30% by Dassault Aviation.

*Unilateral move*
On May 26, 2014, the NDA government assumed office. Prime Minister Narendra Modi visited France on April 10, 2015. Two days before the visit, then Foreign Secretary S. Jaishankar stated: “In terms of Rafale, my understanding is that there are discussions under way between the French company, our Ministry of Defence, the HAL… We do not mix up leadership-level visits with deep details of ongoing defence contracts. That is on a different track.”

Two facts are significant here — one, there were ongoing negotiations between the Defence Ministry, Dassault Aviation and HAL for the purchase of 126 Rafale, 108 out of which would manufactured by HAL, and two, Mr. Modi would not be involved in this as the issue was of technical nature.

However, during his French trip, Mr. Modi inexplicably, and unilaterally, announced ‘off-the-shelf’ purchase of 36 Rafale aircraft at a cost of ₹1,670.70 crore per aircraft. Dassault Aviation disclosed this price in its annual report for 2016.

The price was more than thrice the originally negotiated price of ₹526.1 crore and would involve an additional outflow of approximately ₹41,000 crore. HAL was dropped. Interestingly, all this was done without even cancelling the original global tender for 126 fighter aircraft.

*No spin can change perception*
The fact that the technical specifications were identical in both cases and therefore, there was no case for a price increase is evidenced by the joint statement of April 10, 2015, issued by the then French President, François Hollande, and Mr. Modi which read: “Aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by Indian Air Force, in clear reference to negotiations and testing process for the Rafale jets under the UPA government.”

The government proceeded to cancel the original tender only on June 24, 2015. Subsequently, the Defence Procurement Procedure of 2013 was retrospectively amended on August 5, 2015, in a very suspicious manner. Finally, the deal was signed on September 23, 2016.

The government refuses to disclose even the purchase price of the 36 Rafale aircraft, citing mythical ‘secrecy clauses’. Ironically, the said agreement nowhere prohibits disclosure of the commercial costs involved.

Since hard facts militate against the government, no amount of alternative facts, fake news and hallucinatory spin can transform the perception of it.


************

There are concerted efforts to create a needless controversy around what was in effect decisive action taken by the Narendra Modi government to make good a critical shortfall in the country’s defence preparedness.

As the defence establishment applauded the government’s decision to go in for a timely induction of 36 Rafale fighter jets to bolster its strike capability, the Opposition looked desperately for scandals where there were none. That the direct government-to-government deal precluded Quattrocchi-type middlemen had further constrained the scope for any speculation on that count.

*The deal’s timeline*
First, a close look at the deal’s timeline to get a fair idea about the roles played by the UPA and NDA governments. As the country did a stocktaking of the lessons learnt in the wake of the Kargil conflict, the absence of a lethal air strike capability was direly felt and prompted the Indian Air Force to look around to fill a critical gap in its defence preparedness. However, the process to acquire a new set of Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) began only in 2007 when the Defence Ministry was headed by A.K. Antony.

After a long-drawn process, bids were opened in December 2012, and the French company Dassault Aviation was picked. There were protracted negotiations between the UPA government and Dassault on the aircraft’s prices and transfer of technology.

The talks continued until early 2014. A deal remained elusive, apparently due to the reluctance of a scam-ravaged UPA government, hit hard by the revelations of corruption and policy inertia.

Unlike Bofors, no corruption was involved, no money was exchanged. An inter-governmental agreement ensured that middlemen were eliminated in an attempt to plug holes in India’s combat readiness.

Second, with regard to the price of the aircraft, it is clear that the deal struck by the Narendra Modi government works to be at least 9% cheaper than the one concluded by the Manmohan Singh government insofar as its basic price is concerned, and at least 20% cheaper after including add-ons, such as state-of-the-art weaponry and gadgets, which would make the Indian Rafale both fearsome and lethal.

*Flawed allegations*
In any case, the very premise of these allegations that essentially relate to the offset clause is fundamentally flawed. The two governments involved have nothing to do with the offset provision under which Dassault decided to partner with the Reliance Group, among dozens of other Indian firms such as BTSL, DEFSYS, Kinetic, Mahindra, Maini and SAMTEL.

Dassault Aviation was negotiating potential partnerships with over a hundred other firms, as stated in its official press release.

Moreover, as noted in the Ministry of Defence’s statement, media reports of February 2012 suggest that Dassault, within two weeks of being declared the lowest bidder for procurement of 126 aircraft by the UPA government, had entered into a pact for partnership with Reliance Industries in the defence sector.

In the present case, it is only right to say that it was Dassault’s prerogative to pick its industrial partner.

************


*The government should formulate a coherent strategy to deal with perceptions*

*
*
No sooner had the ink dried on the Inter-Governmental Agreement between France and India to procure 36 Rafale aircraft than the Congress Party raised questions on the procedures adopted and the massive increase in prices. To many of us, this initially appeared to be just one more attempt to politicise a perfectly good defence deal.

The UPA, while in power, had been painfully slow in meeting the strategic requirements of the defence services. The 126-aircraft Rafale deal had tied itself in knots and failed to get approval even after extensive trials had been carried out and cost negotiation completed. The Indian Air Force was diminishing in strength and struggling to maintain its fighting ability to combat two adversaries.

*Modi’s decisiveness*
In contrast to the sluggishness of past practices, Prime Minister Modi had moved decisively to fast track the procurement of 36 Rafale aircraft.

While this would not meet the complete requirements of the Air Force, it would provide a significant boost to its dwindling capability.

There was also no hint of corruption in the deal — of middlemen with foreign accounts or changes in specifications to favour a particular manufacturer. These facts should have been enough to ensure that the allegations of any scam faded away quickly and quietly. However, that has not happened.

We are living in a ‘post-truth world’. ‘Post-truth’ was named as the 2016 word of the year by Oxford Dictionaries and is defined as “relating to circumstances in which people respond more to feelings and beliefs than to facts.” This reality was ignored by the government as it sought to counter the Opposition’s charges by haughty, factual denials. The Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman correctly identified the Rafale row as a ‘battle of perceptions’ but the tools used to fight this battle have been less than adequate.

*Absence of transparency*
The attempt to hide behind the a secrecy clause was clumsy and unconvincing, particularly, when many aspects of the pricing were already out in the open. The Finance Minister said that the Rafale deal negotiated by the government was 9% cheaper than the previously negotiated price, but in the absence of transparency, such statements lose the weight of authority.

There was a similar ineptness in dealing with the case of Anil Ambani’s company as the major offset partner of Dassault. In reply to a Rajya Sabha question in February 2018, Ms. Sitharaman stated: “Details of Indian offset partners have not yet been provided by the French industrial suppliers.” While this is factually correct, the answer appeared to be evasive. Evasion leads to speculation and doubts are generated.

Emily Thorne, a fictional character in the television series _Revenge_, says, “Truth is a battle of perceptions. People only see what they’re prepared to confront. It’s not what you look at that matters, but what you see. And when different perceptions battle against one another, the truth has a way of getting lost.” This is what appears to be happening in the Rafale row.

The procurement of the Rafale is an essential requirement. It is inconceivable that the government would agree to pay exorbitant costs without due diligence. The Air Force is in urgent need of modern aircraft and Rafale would partially fill this operational void. If this deal is not to become a political casualty, the government should formulate a coherent strategy to deal with perceptions.

_Lt. Gen. Deependra Singh Hooda is a former General Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Indian Army’s Northern Command_


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## Hindustani78

*CAG again for forensic audit of Rafale deal *


  Special Correspondent 
NEW DELHI, October 05, 2018 00:12 IST
Updated: October 05, 2018 00:12 IST 

Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) on Thursday, a second such meeting in less than a month, to press for a forensic audit of the “₹60,150 crore Rafale deal” and bring all facts on record for Parliament to fix “accountability” in the scam.

A a fresh memorandum submitted included press clippings: of the former French President Francois Hollande’s interview, in which he had claimed that the Indian government had pushed for Anil Ambani-led Reliance as an offset partner to the Rafale manufacturer, Dassault Aviation; the dissent note of a senior Defence Ministry official objecting to the pricing; and the former Hindustan Aeronautic Ltd. (HAL) chief, T. S. Raju’s comments claiming that HAL had entered into a work share contract with Dassault is completely false.

*Senior Congress leader Anand Sharma also accused “the ministers in the government of leaking information” to sections of the media claiming that the CAG would be giving a ‘clean chit’ to the government. Mr. Sharma said such leaks eroded the integrity of the constitutional authority and added that “more revelations are going to come up since this is a global tender.”*

The Congress delegation included Ahmed Patel, Anand Sharma, Jairam Ramesh, Randeep Surjewala, RPN Singh and Vivek Tankha.

On September 19, a party delegation had met the CAG to request for a forensic audit. The Congress said that subsequent revelations and documents had “exposed a deep-rooted, sinister conspiracy and a clear-cut case of loss to the public exchequer.”

In its memorandum, the opposition party said: “The Rafale scam has now emerged as India’s biggest ‘defence scam’. Skeletons are tumbling out of the closet everyday with repeated disclosures getting zero answers from the Defence Ministry. In fact, the only ‘truth’ of this government is ‘subterfuge’. The stench of ‘corruption’ and ‘cronyism’ in the Rafale deal is nauseating, requiring urgent intervention.”

The party alleged that the government’s decision to buy 36 ‘Made in France’ Rafale aircraft without ‘transfer of technology’ had caused a loss to the public exchequer worth ₹41,205 crore.

*“The above facts reflect a clear-cut case of loss to public exchequer and rampant corruption coupled with a concerted conspiracy of bypassing PSU, HAL. It also reveals illegal and undue benefit to ‘crony friends’ by the highest echelons of power in the Modi Government,” it said.*

The party told the CAG that all the aspects of conspiracy, corruption, national security and crony capitalism could only be uncovered through a probe by a Joint Parliamentary Committee (JPC).

Mr. Sharma said the Congress would not just demand, but insist on a JPC so that “accountability can be fixed once the CAG report puts all documents on record.”

************

Comptroller and Auditor General of India a constitutional functionary is primarily entrusted with the responsibility to audit the accounts and related activities of the three tiers of Government – Federal, Provincial and Local; the State owned public sector commercial enterprises; and autonomous bodies financed by the Federal and Provincial Governments. His reports are laid before the Parliament and Legislatures of the Provinces.


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## Hindustani78

New Delhi, October 05, 2018 22:44 IST
Updated: October 05, 2018 22:44 IST
* The programme will start with a Jan Adalat in Delhi on October 13 *

A week-long protest against the government over the Rafale deal, beginning with a Jan Adalat here on October 13.

These political parties are demanding the resignation of Prime Minister , and a joint parliamentary committee to probe the deal.

At the Jan Adalat, defence experts will be called in to answer questions over the deal. For now, the parties have decided not to invite other Opposition parties for the Jan Adalat. This will be followed by a nationwide campaign by Jan Ekta Jan Adhikar Andolan (JEJAA), the grouping of organisations affiliated to the political parties, from October 22 to 28.

*Meetings in all districts*
These organisations will hold public meetings and seminars, and stage a demonstration in districts on October 28. The JEJAA, which comprises traders, farmers, students, teachers, labour and social unions, claims to have 20 crore members.

“The *artillery* scam was just worth ₹64 crore; the Rafale deal we have heard may go up to ₹41,000 crore. In the *artillery* case, there was a middleman; but in the Rafale deal, the Prime Minister is directly involved,” JEJAA convener Hannan Mollah said.

“They want to shut us up by calling us by different names. It is a diversionary tactic to close down questions,” said a polit bureau member.


*********
“The present government is partial towards 15* industrialists*. For the past four and a half years the government has waived off loans worth Rs 3 lakh crore for the industrialists, the same should be done for the farmers,” he said while addressing a gathering at a stadium in Morena district.


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## Hindustani78

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...nce-general/article25148805.ece?homepage=true
* The general insurance company claimed that its proposal was the most competitive, almost 35% lower than the other closest proposal. *

Reliance General Insurance on Saturday said it has won the contract to provide health insurance cover to *Jammu and Kashmir *government staff after a rigorous and transparent competitive tender process.

The company’s statement came after Congress president Rahul Gandhi alleged that the general insurance company, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Anil Ambani’s Reliance Capital, got the health insurance mandate from the J&K government due to his proximity to Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

“We have won the employee health insurance policy as part of the ‘J&K Chief Minister’s Group Mediclaim Policy’ after a rigorous transparent competitive tender process involving technical and financial evaluation of multiple bidders, carried out strictly in compliance with the laid down guidelines of the state government,” the company said in a statement late evening on Saturday.

Citing a media report, the Congress president, in a tweet, on Saturday said, “When your BFF [best friend forever] is the PM, you can get the 1,30,000 Cr. Rafale deal, even without relevant experience. But wait. There’s more! Apparently, 400,000 JK Govt staff will also be arm-twisted into buying health insurance ONY from your company!”

Mr. Gandhi’s comments referred to the offset deal between French aerospace giant Dassault Aviation and Mr. Ambani’s Reliance Defence after the BJP-led NDA government entered into an agreement with France to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets.

The report claimed that the J&K government has chosen Reliance General Insurance to provide health insurance for its employees, pensioners and accredited journalists.

The general insurance company claimed that its proposal was the most competitive, almost 35% lower than the other closest proposal.

It said the other public and private sector insurance companies that participated in the bidding process included National Insurance, United India Insurance, Bajaj Allianz General Insurance and ICICI Lombard, among others.

Mr. Ambani has earlier rejected Congress’ allegations on the Rafale offset contract, saying the government had no role in French firm Dassault choosing his company as a partner.

The Narendra Modi-led NDA government has also denied any irregularity in the deal with France.
**********

Reliance General Insurance was incorporated on 17 August 2000. It received the license to conduct general insurance business in India from the Insurance Regulatory Development Authority of India (IRDAI) on 23 October 2000. Unlike most insurance companies, who have foreign partners, the firm is promoted solely by Reliance Capital.

https://www.livemint.com/Politics/p78kNkYr1XPA92LXLUwoBP/Insurance-Bill-passed-in-Rajya-Sabha.html
Last Published: Fri, Mar 13 2015. 08 57 AM IST
The upper house’s nod for the Insurance Laws (Amendment) Bill, 2015, puts Parliament’s seal of approval on the legislation, which seeks to raise the overseas investment cap in insurance companies to 49% from 26%.

The Lok Sabha on 4 March approved the bill, which will become an Act when the President signs it.

The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP)-led National Democratic Alliance (NDA) was able to turn the tide its way in the upper House

The NDA has the support of only 57 members of Parliament (MPs) in the 245-member upper house while the Congress has 67 MPs and the BJD seven.

The Communist Party of India (Marxist), with nine MPs in the Rajya Sabha, opposed the higher cap.

The passage of the insurance bill in Rajya Sabha also raises hopes of legislative passage for some other crucial bills like the Coal Mines (Special Provisions) Bill and Mines and Minerals (Development and Regulation) Amendment Bill, 2015, which have been referred to a select committee by the house.


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## Hindustani78

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...-october-10/article25154353.ece?homepage=true

* The PIL seeks a direction to the Centre to reveal details of the deal *
A petition was filed by Rajya Sabha member on Monday to constitute a Special Investigation Team (SIT) under the supervision of the *Supreme Court *to investigate the reasons for cancellation of earlier deal for the purchase of 126 Rafale fighter jets.

The petition wants the SIT to probe how the figure of 36 jets was arrived at, without the formalities associated with such a highly sensitive *defence *procurement.

It wants an investigation into the alterations made by the Defence Ministry about the pricing of the Rafale fighter jets in view of the earlier price of ₹526 crore per fighter weapons, specific enhancements, maintenance support and services which resulted in the escalation of the price of each fighter jets from ₹526 crore to more than ₹1500 crore.

The petition wants an investigation into “how a novice company viz. Reliance Defence came in picture of this highly sensitive defence deal involving ₹59,000 crore without having any kind of experience and expertise in making of fighter jets”.

It has sought an explanation on why the name of 'Hindustan Aeronautics Limited' was removed from the deal?

“Whether the decision of the purchase of only 36 Rafale fighter jets instead of 126 was a compromise with the security of the country or not?” the petition asked.

“Whether the Reliance Defence or its sister concern or any other individual or intermediary company has/have influenced the decision making of the purchase of Rafale fighter jets at substantially higher prices in the backdrop of the statement given by the then President of French Republic and the investment made by the Reliance Entertainment into the Julie Gayet's Firm Rouge International was made with a purpose to influence the decision of removal of the HAL and induction of Reliance Defence as partner of the Dassault?” it asked.

The petition wants the Central Bureau of Investigation to lodge an FIR and to report the progress of investigation to the Supreme Court. Further, to “restore the earlier deal for the purchase of 126 Rafale Fighter Jets which was cancelled on June 24, 2015”. Besides to bar the Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL) from handling/manufacturing the jets and propose Hindustan Aeronautics Limited as the Indian offset partner.

 The petition may be tagged with an earlier one filed by advocate on the same issue. A Bench led by Justice (as he was then) had posted advocate’s case for October 10.



*Aerospace engineer held for leaking info to Pakistan *


  PTI 
Nagpur, October 08, 2018 17:40 IST
Updated: October 08, 2018 19:14 IST

*A engineer was nabbed in a joint operation by the Uttar Pradesh and Maharashtra Anti-Terrorism Squads *

A engineer with the Aerospace unit near here was arrested on Monday for allegedly leaking “technical information” to Pakistan, an official said.

The engineer was nabbed in a joint operation by the Uttar Pradesh and Maharashtra Anti-Terrorism Squads (ATS) at Wardha Road facility, an ATS official said.

The engineer was living in a rented accommodation on Wardha Road since the last year, his landlord said.

Landlord said the police team arrived at the building at 5.30 a.m and was there till 5 p.m.

Landlord said the engineer hails from Roorkee and got married two months ago. “He was staying with his wife here and had given his Aadhaar card copy and a certificate from his employer to me while moving in,” he said.

Aerospace was formed as a joint venture between India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The company was established in India through an inter-governmental agreement signed on February 12, 1998.

********

*CBI to file closure report in missing student case *

* New Delhi, October 08, 2018 11:52 IST *
* Updated: October 08, 2018 12:22 IST *
 
* The agency had, on last hearing, told the Court that it wanted to file closure report stating it has not been able to trace student, who has been missing since October 15, 2016. *

 
The Delhi High Court on Monday allowed the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI), which was probing into the disappearance of student ,to submit a closure report at a trial court here.

The agency had, on last hearing, told the Court that it wanted to file closure report stating it has not been able to trace student, who has been missing since October 15, 2016.

While allowing CBI's plea, a Bench of Justice and Justice said student's mother can raise her grievances before the trial court where report is filed.

The Court also rejected student's mother plea seeking a further probe by another special investigation team comprising officials not belonging to the probe agency.

The student had gone missing a day after a scuffle with some other students.

The Court had transferred the case to the CBI after Delhi police remained clueless about his whereabouts seven months after he went missing.

The CBI had submitted that it has probed all the angles and that its investigation in the case was complete.

Opposing the submission, student’s mother had said that the CBI has not probed the matter ‘in a fair manner’.

Student’s mother counsel had contended that it was a “political case” and that the “CBI has succumbed to the pressure of its masters”.

On the contention of student’s mother counsel that the CBI has not conducted custodial interrogation of any suspect, the CBI counsel said it was the discretion of the agency whether to arrest a person.


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## Hindustani78

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...l-bs-dhanoa/story-u1G2bWFw8wloWErvScHnoK.html

The Indian Air Force (IAF) chief on Monday said that acquisition of 36 Rafale aircraft, S-400 missile systems, attack helicopters and heavy-lift helicopters would enhance the capability of the force. IAF chief BS Dhanoa was speaking on the occasion of 86th anniversary of the Indian Air Force which was celebrated with air and ground display by air warriors at Hindon airbase in Ghaziabad.

Dhanoa said that the force is in the process of acquiring new combat system, upgrading and modernising the existing inventory of aircraft and weapon systems. “The ongoing induction of Tejas (Light Combat Aircraft), Spyder, medium range surface to air missiles and state of art precision weapons are a part of our larger modernisation programme,” Dhanoa said.

“The IAF is ever prepared to meet any contingency that challenges the defence of our country...,” he added. He said that aerospace safety is one area where the force needs to maintain constant vigil as loss of aircraft in peacetime is not only expensive but diminishes the wartime capability. He asked the personnel to remain combat worthy.


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## Hindustani78

* Rafale deal: SC asks Centre to submit in a sealed cover details of decision-making process *


  PTI 
New Delhi, October 10, 2018 11:43 IST
Updated: October 10, 2018 15:58 IST

*It, however, clarifies that it does not want information on pricing and technical particulars. *

The *Supreme Court *on Wednesday asked the Central government to provide details in a sealed cover of the decision-making process in the Rafale fighter jet deal with France by October 29, but clarified that it does not want information on pricing and technical particulars.

The Bench, comprising Chief Justice and Justices, also made it clear that it was not taking into account the allegations of corruption in the deal made in the petitions.

The court was hearing various petitions seeking directions, including asking the Centre to reveal details of the deal and *the comparative prices during the UPA and NDA Government in a sealed cover to the court.*

The BJP led Government opposed the petitions and sought that they be dismissed on the ground that they were filed to gain political mileage.

Attorney General told the court that the issue in question pertained to national security and such issues could not be reviewed judicially.

The court, however, did not issue notice to the BJP led Government on two PIL petitions filed by two lawyers, seeking a court monitored probe into the deal.

The court fixed the next hearing of the petitions on October 31.

*RTI activist withdraws plea*

Congress leader and RTI activist withdrew his PIL plea, which had sought a direction against the BJP led Government on why the Union Cabinet approval was not sought as part of the *Defence *Procurement Procedure (DPP) before signing the procurement deal with France on September 23, 2016.

The Rafale deal is an agreement signed between the governments for the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft in fly-away condition as a part of the upgrading process of Indian Air Force.

The Rafale is a twin-engine Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) manufactured by Dassault Aviation.

Had advanced a proposal to buy 126 fighter aircraft in August 2007 and floated a tender. Following this, an invitation was sent to various aviation companies to participate in the bidding process.

***********

On April 13, 2015 Parrikar stated in an interview that the cost for Rafales was Rs900 billion (US$14 billion). But a few weeks later

September 23, 2016 

According to a source in the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD), the order is worth about €7.89 billion (US $8.85 billion). France is expected to invest 30 percent of the total order cost in military aeronautics-related research programs and 20 percent into local production of Rafale components to fulfill the mandatory offsets under the deal.

Of the total reported amount, €3.42 billion is for the cost of the platform; another €1.8 billion is for support and infrastructure supplies; €1.7 billion will be spent to meet specific changes on the aircraft; €710 million is the additional weapons package; and €353 million is the cost of performance-based logistics support, the MoD official said.

The first of the jets from France is to be delivered in 36 months

"This new contract illustrates the strategic relationship and the exemplary partnership maintained between the two countries and marks the natural culmination of the relationship of trust initiated in 1953 when became Dassault Aviation’s first export customer," the company said.

*****
According to an Indian Air Force (IAF) official, Dassault will make India-specific changes to the aircraft and mount new-generation missiles, like Meteor and Scalp, adding extra capability beyond India's immediate adversaries.

Pakistan currently has only a beyond-visual-range (BVR) missile with 80-km range.

During the Kargil war, India had used a BVR having 50-km range while Pakistan had none. With Meteor, the balance of power in the air space has again tilted in India’s favour.

These aircraft are likely to succeed Mirage fighters for nuclear warhead delivery as part of India’s nuclear doctrine. “The IGA does not put any restrictions on its use,” a senior defence official said in what would be welcome news for India’s strategic planners.


Defence sources said the agreement has many components, which are better that the original deal and the best part is the weapons package.

The deal includes the aircraft in fly-away condition, weapons, simulators, spares, maintenance, and Performance Based Logistics support for five years. “For five years we do not have to spend on maintenance,” sources said. Warranty is extendable by two years by factoring inflation and further by another five years upon negotiation. For the entire deal inflation has been capped at a maximum of 3.5 % or current rate whichever is lowest.

The aircraft will be customised as per the requirements of the IAF which include Helmet Mounted Displays, radar warning receiver, infrared search and track among others.

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## Hindustani78

Special Correspondent 
NEW DELHI, October 11, 2018 13:36 IST
Updated: October 11, 2018 17:41 IST
* The clarification forms the backdrop of a visit by Defence Minister to France and assess the progress of the supply of 36 Rafale jets. *

The decision to partner with Reliance Defence on Rafale aircraft deal was taken ‘freely,’ Dassault Aviation said in a press release on Thursday, October 11, 2018.

The clarification came a day after reports in the French media suggested that the company was made to choose Reliance Defence in a “trade-off” to get the Rafale aircraft deal from India.

“Dassault Aviation has freely chosen to make a partnership with India’s Reliance Group. This joint venture, Dassault Reliance Aerospace Ltd (DRAL), was created on February 10, 2017. Other partnerships have been signed with other companies. Other negotiations are ongoing with a hundred-odd other potential partners,” Dassault Aviation said.

French investigative journal _Mediapart_ had reported that Dassault Aviation found it mandatory to have Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence as an offset partner to clinch the Rafale deal. The journal said it was a “trade-off.” It cited documents from Dassault Aviation that showed that it had no option but to take Reliance as the offset partner.

The clarification from Dassault Aviation forms the backdrop of a visit to France by Defence Minister on Thursday. During the visit, Defence Minister is expected to assess the progress of the supply of 36 Rafale jets by Dassault under a ₹58,000 -crore deal.

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## Hindustani78

*Rafale deal: a serial liar*

''I think only an issueless man can repeat a lie again and again because he doesn’t have any other issues.” 

On Friday accused the party of repeatedly “spreading falsehood and lies” on the Rafale fighter aircraft deal and called him a “serial liar”.

“We have been witnessing the activities of a serial liar. I think only an issueless man can repeat a lie again and again because he doesn’t have any other issues.”

Remarks came in the wake of Dassault Aviation CEO Eric Trappier saying that the company’s joint venture with Reliance in Nagpur represents only about 10 per cent of the offset obligations in the deal and it was in negotiations with about a 100 Indian companies to meet the requirements under the Defence Procurement Procedure of the Indian government.

“But even if a lie is repeated a hundred times it will never become a substitute for the truth. We have a gentleman manufacturing fake news and then trying to spread it. So repeating lie after lie, falsehood after falsehood, was not going to change the reality. The opposition is an issueless party, their leadership cannot understand basic figures, basic elementary facts.''

“But even if a lie is repeated a hundred times it will never become a substitute for the truth. We have a gentleman manufacturing fake news and then trying to spread it. So repeating lie after lie, falsehood after falsehood, was not going to change the reality. The Congress is an issueless party, their leadership cannot understand basic figures, basic elementary facts.''

‘Misdemeanours of 2012’

US Congressmen were possibly trying to hide their own ''misdemeanours of 2012'', when under the ''pressure of the 'first family', they cancelled important negotiations over the deal to benefit their associates and compromised national security.''

“We have a crystal clear situation keeping national interest and the security of the nation as paramount,” he said.

The government decided to expedite the purchase of very crucial and critical defence equipment. “We have been able to negotiate terms, which are far better than what was the terms between the 2007 and 2012. We have been able to get faster delivery, longer maintenance tenure, better availability of spare parts and the much needed capabilities particularly in the adversarial situation at the border,” he said.

‘Offset clause drafted ’

Referring to Mr. Trappier’s comments, Had categorically confirmed that since the “implementation of offset was an obligation under the regulation”, also drafted under, they themselves choose the partners to implement the offsets”.

“The CEO has confirmed that of their volition and choice they chose a particular company with which their discussions and contracts are persisting since 2012.

“The Reliance-Dassault agreement dates back to 2012 and it immediately raises the question whether the opposition was trying to deflect its own misdeeds by cancelling the entire process because the French side was not willing to give business to a close associate of the first family.

“what are his relations with the first family of the Congress? What are the angularities that the opposition decided to compromise the national security to drop the procurement of much needed defence equipment? 

“It was time the opposition understood that this government was with highest standard of transparency and probity.”

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## Hindustani78

Ministry of Defence
12-October, 2018 18:45 IST
*Raksha Mantri Addresses on ‘India-France Defence Engagement in A Multipolar World’ at The Institute of Strategic Research (IRSEM) in Paris *

Raksha Mantri Smt Nirmala Sitharaman is on maiden official visit to France on the invitation of French Defence Minister Ms Florence Parly from October 10 - 13, 2018. Smt Sitharaman addressed ‘India-France Defence Engagement in a Multipolar World’ at the Institute of Strategic Research (IRSEM) in Paris, today. In her speech, she said that her visit is a reaffirmation of India’s commitment to the strategic partnership with France, especially in the critical areas of defence cooperation.

Raksha Mantri Smt Sitharaman said, “Under the new framework for defence industry in India, we are hoping to meet our defence requirements within a framework of joint manufacturing and technology driven partnerships”. She highlighted a strong India-France strategic partnership, of which the defence ties are a key component, and an active engagement with other like-minded friends and partners, can contribute to furthering peace and security in these testing times. India presents a major opportunity for the French defence industry. Indian Government’s ‘Make-in-India’ initiative opens doors to not only a huge market but is also an attractive investment destination for defence production and development, including for third country exports. Several of our international partners have already displayed a willingness to expand their presence in the Indian defence manufacturing space.

Raksha Mantri said the current international security environment can be characterized as one of rapid change and uncertainty, with swathes of sustained instability and violence posing a grave challenge. The persisting threat of terrorism, or what we in India as well as increasingly in Afghanistan too, more accurately refer to as cross-border terrorism, is a primary security threat. She also said that the interplay between states and non-state actors that are often used as proxies to foment violence has worsened this menace. Areas of continued violence and instability in the Af-Pak region, as well as parts of West Asia and Africa, have functioned as incubators of virulent manifestations of terrorism. This, combined with the issue of foreign terrorist fighters and uncontrolled migration now pose a clear threat to the stability of wider Asia and Europe.

Smt Sitharaman made special mentioned about the continued presence of terrorist infrastructure and state support to terrorists in the immediate neighbourhood constantly testing India’s patience. As a responsible power, India has exercised great restraint in dealing with this menace. India and France have long been victims of terrorism. Disrupting the recruitment, mobilisation and movements of Foreign Terrorist fighters, stopping sources of terrorist financing in dismantling terrorist infrastructure and preventing supply of arms to terrorists all require a concerted effort. She mentioned that in this direction, France is playing a unique role.

She underlined in that context, growing India-France maritime cooperation, especially in the Indian Ocean region, will be crucial in order to preserving the strategic interests, in maintaining the safety of international sea lanes for unimpeded commerce and communications in accordance with the international law, for countering maritime terrorism and piracy, for capacity building and for greater coordination in regional/international fora. Such cooperation is for the common benefit of all.

Smt Sitharaman said at a broader level, high political exchanges have been a hallmark of our ties. Most recently, the very successful State visit by President Mr. Emmanuel Macron to India in March this year, and the visit of Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi to Paris in June last year, have elevated Indo-French relationship to a new trajectory.

India has been constantly supportive of recent efforts to bring about peace and stability in the Korean Peninsula through dialogue and diplomacy. Developments in the Middle East and West Asia are of great significance for India. India has key stakes in this region, which accounts for 66% of our energy requirements and is home to over eight million Indians. Conflict in this region threatens to expand beyond the internal situation in countries such as Iraq, Syria, Yemen and Libya.

India and France are bound by a very deep-rooted thread of military history. She referred to the supreme sacrifice of 9,300 Indian soldiers who laid down their lives on the French soil, fighting in the World Wars. A total of 1,40,000 Indian soldiers fought in various theatres of the First World War in France and Belgium, thousands of miles away from their homeland, for the cause of freedom.

Raksha Mantri stated that India’s partnership with other countries aims to contribute a more secure, stable and peaceful environment for all and spur greater prosperity. She further stated that France is an important stakeholder in this effort and both the countries will remain committed to working together towards these objectives.

*SRR/Nampi/Rajib*


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## Hindustani78

Congress president Rahul Gandhi during his interaction with with former HAL employees at Cubbon Park in Bengaluru on Saturday. | Photo Credit: Murali Kumar K. 

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...tegic-asset/article25214901.ece?homepage=true

* Terming HAL a “strategic asset”, Congress president accuses Modi government of destroying it and tells the aerospace PSU’s employees that “Rafale is your right”. *

Congress president Rahul Gandhi on Saturday, October 13,2018, described the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), as a “strategic asset” in aerospace, saying the country owed a debt to it, as he stepped up his campaign against the Modi government over the Rafale fighter jet deal.

Reaching out to present and former employees of the defence PSU at an interaction with them here, Mr. Gandhi said, work done by HAL for the country was tremendous and the country owed debt to it for “protecting us” and creating a scientific vision.

”....HAL is a strategic asset in aerospace, not an ordinary or regular company,” Mr. Gandhi said at the event organised at Minsk Square near the HAL head quarters.

He said he was interacting with the employees to understand how to make “this strategic asset” (HAL) more effective “so that when we come to power, we will do it more aggressively.”

Mr. Gandhi’s interaction is part of his onslaught against the Modi government over the Rafale deal in which he alleges HAL had been overlooked in the offsets contracts with French aerospace company Dassault Aviation preferring Anil Ambani’s company.

The Congress, which has been accusing the government of benefiting the Reliance Defence Ltd of Anil Ambani from the deal, has also been demanding answers on why the state-run aerospace major HAL was not involved in the deal as finalised during the UPA.

*‘Job losses for Karnataka’*
The party had been accusing Prime Minister Narendra Modi of snatching jobs of people of *Karnataka *by taking away the contract from HAL.

Mr. Gandhi had been saying that had HAL been selected in place of Reliance Defence it could have generated employment to scores of unemployed youth in the state.

However, the BJP and Reliance Defence have dismissed all the allegations as false.

Mr. Modi had announced the procurement of 36 Rafale fighters after holding talks with then French President Francois Hollande on April 10, 2015, in Paris.


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## Hindustani78

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/rafale-more-serious-than-bofors-bhushan/article25216522.ece
Mumbai, October 13, 2018 21:58 IST
Updated: October 13, 2018 21:58 IST 

Calling the Rafale deal the “largest defence scam that the country has seen”, Prashant Bhushan, lawyer and activist, on Saturday hoped the CBI would act on a complaint made by him and two others against Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

At an event organised by the Mumbai Press Club, he said if the CBI failed to follow due process and register a preliminary inquiry or an FIR, he would take the case to the court.

On whether the Rafale deal was similar to the Bofors scam of the 1980s, he said the present defence agreement with France was a much more serious and greater cause of concern. “This [the Rafale deal] isn’t merely a matter of securing commission for a particular company, as was the case in Bofors. This is the largest defence scam that the country has seen,” he said. He said the deal was overpriced and the French firm had been made to chose Reliance.


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## airmarshal

Hindustani78 said:


> French investigative journal _Mediapart_ had reported that Dassault Aviation found it mandatory to have Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence as an offset partner to clinch the Rafale deal. The journal said it was a “trade-off.” It cited documents from Dassault Aviation that showed that it had no option but to take Reliance as the offset partner.



If its true, thats corruption right there. A country finding so hard to buy just 36 jets despite having money and resources. What a shame!

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## Hindustani78

airmarshal said:


> If its true, thats corruption right there. A country finding so hard to buy just 36 jets despite having money and resources. What a shame!



That's not corruption.







*WELCOME TO ARMED FORCES TRIBUNAL*

_The Armed Forces Tribunal was inaugurated by Her Excellency the President of India on the 8th August 2009._
The Armed Forces Tribunal Act 2007, was passed by the Parliament and led to the formation of AFT with the power provided for the adjudication or trial by Armed Forces Tribunal of disputes and complaints with respect to commission, appointments, enrolments and conditions of service in respect of persons subject to the Army Act, 1950, The Navy Act, 1957 and the Air Force Act, 1950.It can further provide for appeals arising out of orders, findings or sentences of courts- martial held under the said Acts and for matters connected therewith or incidental thereto.

* Jurisdiction *

The Tribunal shall exercise all the jurisdiction, powers and authority exercisable under this Act in relation to appeal against any order, decision, finding or sentence passed by a court martial or any matter connected therewith or incidental thereto.

Any person aggrieved by an order, decision, finding or sentence passed by a court martial may prefer an appeal in such form, manner and within such time as may be prescribed.

The Tribunal shall have power to grant bail to any person accused of an offence and in military custody, with or without any conditions which it considers necessary:

The Tribunal shall allow an appeal against conviction by a court martial where the finding of the court martial is legally not sustainable due to any reason whatsoever; or the finding involves wrong decision on a question of law; or there was a material irregularity in the course of the trial resulting in miscarriage of justice, but, in any other case, may dismiss the appeal where the Tribunal considers that no miscarriage of justice is likely to be caused or has actually resulted to the appellant. The Tribunal may allow an appeal against conviction, and pass appropriate order thereon.

The Tribunal may have the powers to substitute for the findings of the court martial, a finding of guilty for any other offence for which the offender could have been lawfully found guilty by the court martial and pass a sentence afresh for the offence specified or involved in such findings or if sentence is found to be excessive, illegal or unjust, the Tribunal may (i) remit the whole or any part of the sentence, with or without conditions; (ii) mitigate the punishment awarded (iii) commute such punishment to any lesser punishment or enhance the sentence awarded by a court martial:

The Tribunal may release the appellant, if sentenced to imprisonment, on parole with or without conditions; suspend a sentence of imprisonment; Or pass any other order as it may think appropriate.

Notwithstanding any other provisions in this Act, for the purposes of jurisdiction and powers, the Tribunal shall be deemed to be a criminal court for the purposes of relevant sections of the Indian Penal Code and Chapter XXVI of the Code of Criminal Procedure, 1973.

With the exception of the Chandigarh and LucknowRegional Benches, which have three benches each, all other locations have a single bench. Each Bench comprises of a Judicial Member and an Administrative Member.

The Judicial Members are retired High Court Judges and Administrative Members are retired Members of the Armed Forces who have held rant of Major General/ equivalent or above for a period of three years or more, Judge Advocate General (JAG), who have held the appointment for at least one year are also entitled to be appointed as the Administrative Member.

The Tribunal shall transact their proceedings as per the Armed Forces Tribunal ( Procedure) rules, 2008. All proceedings in the Tribunal will be in English. The Tribunal will normally follow the procedure as is practiced in the High Courts of India.

The dress as mandated for the officials of the Tribunal including bar will be white shirt, collar band and a black coat/ jacket.


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## Hindustani78

Congress chief Rahul Gandhi in a pensive mood during an interaction with the employees of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited at Minsk Square in Bengaluru on Saturday. | Photo Credit:  K. MURALI KUMAR 


In the wake the Rafale controversy, Congress president Rahul Gandhi interacted with some present and former employees of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited on Saturday and spelled out party’s strategy ahead of the 2019 Lok Sabha elections. He later spoke to reporters.

*Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman has raised questions on the capability of the 78-year-old Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to manufacture front-line jet fighters? What is your response? *

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for me is not just a company. It has manufactured a variety of defence aircraft in the past 70 years. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited is a strategic asset for aerospace. The country owes a debt to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and its employees for protecting us, for creating a scientific atmosphere and scientific vision. Former United States president Barack Obama said the only countries that can challenge the U.S. in the future are India and China. The one reason Mr. Obama said that is the work you have done. The Anil Ambani-owned Reliance Defence Ltd., which is part of the Rafale deal, has neither experience nor capability. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has both experience and capability.

*The BJP has been asking why the Congress forgot Hindustan Aeronautics Limited during its rule.*

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited was very much part of the contract with the United Progressive Alliance. The question is not what happened during the Congress rule. *The question is why ₹30,000 crore is being given to Anil Ambani *, when Hindustan Aeronautics Limited employees have given their life to the country. With all their experience, why have the orders been taken away from them? Why is Hindustan Aeronautics Limited being destroyed to help Mr. Ambani?

*The Defence Minister has been saying the government has not proposed name of Anil Ambani or any other company from India in the Rafale deal. Your comments?*

The Defence Minister is lying. The ex-President of France clearly says that the Government of India told him to give the contract to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. Now, through internal documents of Dassault, it has come out that Dassault was told that if they wanted the contract, they had to go to Anil Ambani. The youth of Bengaluru, please remember that the Prime Minister has given ₹30,000 crore to Mr. Anil Ambani. I am saying corruption has taken place... Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s future is being destroyed, the defence of India being destroyed, the future of the country is being destroyed.

*How do you and your party plan to take forward this issue ahead of 2019?*

The Defence Minister has rushed to France for a cover-up. But it is not possible to cover this up because the truth is coming out. _Dood ka dood, pani ka pani honewala hai. _We will fight this in every street of India, we stand with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and fight this, we will stand with the air force and fight this, we stand with every single person who is protecting India.

I would like to tell all the youth of this country that this contract being given to Mr. Ambani has cost thousands of superb high-quality engineering jobs.


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## Hindustani78

https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/le...controversy/article25230283.ece?homepage=true
 
*Decoding the Rafale controversy *
 
October 16, 2018 00:02 IST
Updated: October 16, 2018 00:43 IST
* The opacity in the Rafale deal only raises doubts, with its fallout on national security and the ‘Make in India’ programme. *
The controversy over Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s decision to go in for an outright purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jet aircraft, after scrapping the old negotiations, is unlikely to die down. The Congress party has yet to find a smoking gun and hopes that a joint parliamentary committee probe might reveal it. The government has meanwhile tied itself up in knots by making opaque, and often, contradictory statements, in turn raising more doubts and questions.

*From 126 to 36*
There are three questions that the government needs to address to neutralise the snowballing controversy. The first is the rationale for the announcement made by Mr. Modi, during his official visit to *France, *in April 2015, that India would buy 36 Rafale aircraft in a government-to-government deal, thereby scrapping ongoing negotiations with Dassault Aviation for 126 aircraft.

The process for acquisition of 126 aircraft to replace a part of the aging fleet in the Indian Air Force (IAF) had begun in 2000. After prolonged deliberations, a Request for Information was issued and based on the responses, technical specifications drawn up and a global tender issued in 2007 for 126 aircraft, with 18 to be delivered in flyaway condition and 108 to be assembled by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) with gradually increasing domestic content. Six bids were received and technical evaluations over four years led to the short-listing of two — the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale. Evaluation of financial bids in 2011 led to the Rafale’s selection and negotiations commenced with Dassault in 2012.

The Indian Air Force strength had reduced to around 32 squadrons against its authorised level of 42. Instead of fast tracking the negotiations, former Union *Defence *Minister A.K. Antony was indecisive, thereby prolonging the process. Negotiations were carried forward by the Modi government and in the run-up to Mr. Modi’s visit, official statements indicated that negotiations were in final stages. Inexplicably, these were jettisoned. Then Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar acknowledged that he was unaware of the decision. The decision for 36 aircraft was only formalised by the Defence Acquisition Council and the Cabinet Committee on Security after the visit and the formal cancellation of the negotiations for 126 aircraft announced in the middle of 2015, generating speculation about the Paris announcement. Last week, a bench of the Supreme Court, headed by the Chief Justice of India, Ranjan Gogoi, sought details of the ‘decision making process’ before the next hearing on October 31.

The aircraft are to be delivered between 2019 and 2022. Meanwhile, the government invited Expressions of Interest in April 2018 for 110 fighter aircraft, 17 in flyaway condition and the balance to be assembled in India, but assembly was not restricted to HAL. It has since received responses from the same six manufacturers. This makes it clear that the shortfall will not be made up by the indigenous Tejas aircraft which is suffering from delays and cost over-runs (HAL has raised the cost of Tejas Mark I from ₹135 crore in 2006 to ₹268 crore and Tejas Mark IA, in design stage, is quoted at ₹463 crore).

The second question relates to pricing. Since the earlier negotiations for 126 aircraft were never concluded, a straightforward comparison is not feasible. Earlier negotiations did not cover weapon systems or the performance guarantees and spares. However, since the Modi government boasted that it had negotiated a better deal and promised to provide details, it has now been hoisted with its own petard. It proudly announced that it had obtained a 50% offset undertaking which would give a boost (nearly ₹30,000 crore) to the ‘Make in India’ programme in the defence sector. Perhaps, it failed to realise that the higher offset would be factored into the aircraft price, driving it higher.

*Number crunching*
From the sketchy details provided, it would appear that the total outlay is €7.87 billion (₹59,000 crore at 1 euro to ₹73.88). This includes cost of weaponry (€710 million) and a performance guarantee of 75% (current performance level of the Sukhoi-30 fighter assembled by HAL is 50%) with spares (€2.16 billion). This brings the cost of the 36 aircraft, with the India-specific enhancements to €5 billion (₹36,900 crore or ₹1,025 crore per aircraft). However, Union Minister of State for Defence, Subhash Bhamre has put the cost at ₹670 crore per aircraft. Of course, the Congress claims that it was negotiating on the basis of a price per aircraft of ₹526 crore but omits to mention what this related to or the exchange rate.

The government has taken refuge behind the 2008 Agreement with France regarding Exchange and Reciprocal Protection of Classified or Protected Information, which it renewed in March 2018. This is unconvincing as the French President Emmanuel Macron has publicly declared that the French government has no objection to the Indian government sharing pricing details with Parliament. Therefore, the government’s obfuscation regarding pricing only generates doubts.

*Offsets and coincidences*
The third question relates to the offset share given to Dassault Reliance Aerospace Ltd, or DRAL (a 51:49 joint venture between Reliance Aerostructure Ltd and the Dassault Group). The Congress has cited ₹30,000 crore while the Dassault Chairman, Eric Trappier, has stated that the figure is 10% of it as it has signed offset partnerships with more than 30 other Indian partners and the choice of Indian partners was its independent decision. This is inconsistent with former French President François Hollande’s statement to a French news website, Mediapart, in September that Reliance was proposed by the Indian government and that the French did not have a choice in the matter.

Adding to this is a set of timing coincidences. Reliance Defence Ltd was registered in March 2015, weeks before Mr. Modi’s visit to France. Reliance Aerostructure was registered on April 24. The offset guidelines were amended in August 2015, weeks after scrapping the negotiations for 126 aircraft, relaxing the obligation on the foreign vendor to provide technical details about the Indian offset partner at the time of winning the contract by postponing it to when the offset credits are claimed or a year before it is due. This has permitted the government to feign ignorance about DRAL’s offset share.

The agreement for 36 aircraft was signed by the two Defence Ministers on September 23, 2016. DRAL was registered on October 3 while FDI in defence had been liberalised to permit 49% through the automatic route in June of the same year. In October 2017, the foundation stone of the DRAL facility was laid in Nagpur in the presence of Maharashtra Chief Minister Devendra Fadnavis and Union Minister Nitin Gadkari. Conflicting statements have been made about whether DRAL would produce components for the Rafale or for Dassault’s business jets.

Further, while total offsets amount to ₹30,000 crore, this is shared between: Dassault which provides the airframe and is the systems integrator; Safran, which provides the engine and the landing gear, and Thales, which delivers the radars and the avionics. Since Reliance subsidiaries were awarded a clutch of defence licences during 2016-17, it is unclear as to how many of these are engaged with the Rafale offsets. Mr. Hollande’s statement, which is coupled with the set of seemingly fortuitous coincidences, only adds to the controversy.

The casualty is national security because the IAF’s squadron strength will drop to 23 in 2032, unless there is fresh acquisition beyond the 36 Rafale and 123 Tejas fighter aircraft. The second casualty is the much-touted ‘Make in India’ defence programme. Sadly, this could have been prevented if only the government had chosen to address the three questions with candour and transparency.

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## Hindustani78

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...capitalists/article25257660.ece?homepage=true

New Delhi , October 18, 2018 17:21 IST
Updated: October 18, 2018 17:23 IST 

*The Government has dismissed Mr. Gandhi’s allegations, while the BJP has accused him of spreading lies on the issue. *

Congress president Rahul Gandhi on Thursday attacked the government over the Rafale deal alleging that it renegotiated the contract to benefit crony capitalists and reduced India’s prestige globally.

In a Facebook post, Mr. Gandhi said due to the renegotiated deal could not get transfer of technology as negotiated during the UPA rule and it was shameful that Indian pilots have to put their lives at risk flying the ancient Jaguar aircraft as the new technology did not come into the country.

He cited a media report to allege that instead of getting 126 Rafale aircraft together with transfer of technology that would have transformed the Air Force, the NDA government renegotiated the deal to get only 36 aircraft made in France.

“Since 2014, instead of taking to closure deals that had been negotiated by the UPA Government, the present government has focussed on renegotiating those deals to benefit crony capitalists.

“For instance, the UPA’s Rafale deal for 126 aircraft would have transformed the Indian Airforce allowing us to scrap and replace ancient aircraft like the Jaguar. It involved the transfer of technology to HAL which would have helped make us become more self reliant in the future. Instead, the deal was re-worked for Anil Ambani’s benefit and reduced to just 36 aircraft - all made in France. These aircraft will take years to arrive in India,” he claimed in his post.

Anil Ambani-led Reliance Group has denied the Congress’ allegations in connection with deal.

Mr. Gandhi and his Congress party have been attacking the government and Prime Minister Narendra Modi over the Rafale deal, alleging corruption and favouritism.

The BJP Government has dismissed Mr. Gandhi’s allegations, while the BJP has accused him of spreading lies on the issue.

The Congress chief alleged that India’s pilots are forced to put their lives at risk each day, flying ancient Jaguars, that are kept in the air “using parts scrounged from junk yards in France and other parts of the world“.

“Not only is this shameful, it reduces India’s prestige globally and puts the lives of our pilots at risk,” he said.

He cited a media report claiming that “India is the only air force in the world still flying the Jaguar aircraft, and will now ‘cannibalise’ retired aircraft for spare parts”.


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## Hindustani78

Former chairman of State Bank of India Arundhati Bhattacharya has joined as additional director, designated as independent director, Reliance Industries.

“Arundhati Bhattacharya is appointed for five years commencing October 17, 2018, subject to approval of the shareholders,” RIL said. It also said wholly-owned arm Reliance Industrial Investments and Holdings has bought 12.7% in SkyTran Inc., which develops technology in the field of Personal Rapid Transit Systems.

“Reliance has made a strategic investment in SkyTran as part of SkyTran’s recently concluded Preferred Stock financing, with an option to further invest an amount up to $25 million in convertible notes, subject to SkyTran's Board approval,” the company said in a stock exchange filing.


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## Hindustani78

Congress President Rahul Gandhi, along with the senior party leaders, meet ex-servicemen at the party office, in New Delhi, Saturday, Oct 27, 2018. | Photo Credit:  PTI 

New Delhi, October 27, 2018 15:28 IST
Updated: October 27, 2018 15:29 IST

* Speaking to a group of ex-servicemen, he also brought up the Rafale fighter jet deal *

A Congress-led government would fulfil all the commitments the party had made on the issues, Indian National Congress President Rahul Gandhi told a group of ex-servicemen on Saturday.

At a meeting with the retired defence personnel, the Indian National Congress President Rahul Gandhi said that if his party is voted to power in the 2019 parliamentary election, Indian National Congress will fulfil their demands, including ‘one rank, one pension’.

Raking up the Rafale fighter jet deal, Indian National Congress President Rahul Gandhi said the Narendra Modi government handed out ₹ 30,000 crore to industrialist Anil Ambani, but refused to meet the demands of the soldiers on ‘one rank, one pension’.

The amount of ₹ 30,000 crore was more than enough to solve the ‘one rank, one pension’ issue, Indian National Congress President Rahul Gandhi said after the 30-minute meeting.

The Indian National Congress has alleged that the Anil Ambani-led company was favoured by the Modi government on the offset contract of the Rafale deal. The private firm has denied the allegations.

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## Hindustani78

********

* ‘ISRO Chairman was forced to go on leave to stop him from starting investigation into the Rafale deal’ *
Indian National Congress President Rahul Gandhi on Thursday accused Prime Minister Narendra Modi of forcing ISRO Chairman to go on indefinite leave out of “panic”, as Mr. Modi wanted to stop ISRO Chairman from starting an *investigation *into the Rafale deal.

After making these remarks at an election meeting in Rajasthan, he said at a press conference here that ISRO Chairman’s “removal was not only illegal and criminal” but it was also an insult to the Constitution, the Chief Justice of India and the Leader of the Opposition.

Without naming Joint Director Nageswara Rao, ISRO Chairman accused the Prime Minister of choosing a “corrupt leader” as interim head in an attempt to control it.

Earlier, at an election rally in Sikar district, Indian National Congress President Rahul Gandhi said the ISRO Chairman was sent on leave in the middle of the night as the Prime Minister was afraid of an investigation. He said the nation’s _chowkidar_ [watchman], as Mr. Modi described himself, had defamed all watchmen in the country.

Indian National Congress President Rahul Gandhi asked the crowd to raise the slogan Duplicate Chowkidar Chor Hai (the Duplicate watchman is a thief), alleging that the “unprecedented corruption” in the Rafale deal had led to the theft of ₹30,000 crore. There was no justification for ignoring Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., which had brought victory to India in the wars since 1965, in the indigenous production of fighter aircraft.

Repeating the charge at the press conference in Delhi, he said the reason ISRO Chairman was removed at 2 a.m. was that “incriminating evidence could be acquired by sealing his room”. “Understand the PM’s mental state... He knows the day CBI starts a probe, that day he [Mr Modi] would be finished. So this reaction that you see from the PM is a panic reaction. It is taken out of fear and is actually irrational,” he said.


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## Hindustani78

New Delhi, October 31, 2018 11:48 IST
Updated: October 31, 2018 14:56 IST

* Government protests aftercourt records in its order that it "would also like to be apprised of the details with regard to the pricing/cost and advantages, if any". *

The government on Wednesday raised objections about sharing the pricing/cost of Rafale fighter jets with the Supreme Court in a sealed cover, saying it was not divulged even to the parliament.

Chief Justice of India heading 3-judge bench, told Attorney-General to file an affidavit spelling out the government's objections to disclosing the price fixed for procuring the aircraft from France's Dassault company by Pakistan.

"Please file an affidavit saying why your are not sharing... if you have any difficulty, say so. We will hear that," Chief Justice told Attorney-General.

The government protested after the court recorded in its order that it "would also like to be apprised of the details with regard to the pricing/cost and advantages, if any".

Later, one of the petitioners, Rajya Sabha MP said the price of the aircraft should be disclosed.

"Do you know the price?" Chief Justice asked him.

When Rajya Sabha MP replied in the affirmative, the Chief Justice said: "You keep it to yourself... you are one of the fortunates who know the price".

Besides Rajya Sabha MP, the petitioners include former union ministers — who were at the court, advocates — who had filed the first petition in the apex court against the Rafale deal.

The petitions, the court pointed out, have not raised questions about the "suitability" of the Rafale fighter jets or its "utility to the Indian Air Force".

"What has been questioned is the bonafide-ness of the decision-making process and the price/cost of the equipment for which the same has been procured," the Chief Justice explained the ambit of the various petitions in the court's order.

The Bench, also comprising Justices said it has perused the note/report given to the court in a sealed cover by the government, detailing the various stages of the decision-making process leading to the award of the 36 fighter jets.

*'Put details in public domain'*
The court ordered the government to share with petitioners and parties such information contained in the note which could be "legitimately put out in the public domain".

Again, the Bench directed the government to make available whatever information which could be "legitimately placed in the public domain" about the induction of the Indian off-set partner, if any, in the Rafale deal.

The petitioners had raised questions about “how a novice company viz. Reliance Defence came in picture of this highly sensitive defence deal involving Rs. 59,000 crore without having any kind of experience and expertise in making of fighter jets”. They had sought an explanation on why Hindustan Aeronautics Limited was removed from the deal.

The court clarified in its order that any information in the note which is either strategic or confidential in nature may not, at this stage, be furnished to the petitioners or parties.

Attorney-General submitted that many details in the note may be hit by the Official Secrets Act and exempt from public disclosure.

"Please read our order, Mr. Attorney. We said 'whatever information which can be legitimately placed in public domain'," the Chief Justice responded.

The court gave the government 10 days to share the necessary information from its note with the petitioners. They, in turn, can filed their responses in seven days thereafter. The court fixed the hearing for November 14.


*Court won't stop for elections: CJI*
Advocates wanted the hearing to be adjourned till after the elections. He conveyed this to the Chief Justice at the very beginning of the hearing. He said "elections" were due.

"How are we concerned? When has the business of this court stopped for elections..
By the way, what elections are you talking about?" Chief Justice Gogoi asked him.

Advocates hesitatingly referred to the "Assembly elections". To this, the CJI snubbed him, saying "first you decide what elections you have in mind".

Advocates who jointly moved the Supreme Court with the two former ministers for a CBI probe into the Rafale deal, said he had earlier filed a complaint with the CBI. He said there was no word from the CBI about his complaint.

"For that you will have to wait advocates. Let the CBI put its house in order first," the Chief Justice said.

The top judge was obliquely referring to the power feud between top officials and the ongoing investigation into exiled Union Minister and CBI Special Director which has shaken the credibility of the premier agency.

The trio's petition contended that tenders were originally issued by the Ministry of Defence in 2007 for the purchase of 126 fighter aircraft. According to this deal, they contended, the Request for Proposal showed 18 of the jets would be purchased from abroad in a ‘fly-away’ condition and the remaining 108 would be manufactured with transfer of technology from the foreign vendor.

Six companies had applied. Dassault was declared the lowest tenderer and thereafter price negotiations began. These negotiations were at a very advanced stage (95% complete) by March 25, 2015.

“However within 15 days of this, the Prime Minister of India and the President of France announced a totally new deal jettisoning the virtually complete 126 aircraft deal and the Prime Minister on behalf of India agreed to purchase only 36 Rafale aircraft in a ‘fly-away’ condition without any transfer of technology and make in India,” the petition said.

“It later turned out that the new deal involved 50% of the value of the contract to be given as “offset contracts” to Indian companies and that the government informally told Dassault and the French government that the bulk of the offset contracts would have to be given to a company of which had just been set up,” the petition said.

The petition alleged that “when the final contract was signed after price negotiations, it was transpired that the price of the aircraft had been increased to more than double to what was under consideration in the old deal of 126 aircraft”.

It said the alleged actions of the “various public servants” amount to offences under the Prevention of Corruption Act.

Rajya Sabha MP's petition has urged the court to “restore the earlier deal for the purchase of 126 Rafale Fighter Jets which was cancelled on June 24, 2015 by the Government of India” and propose Hindustan Aeronautics Limited as the Indian offset partner of Dassault in the Rafale deal.

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## Hindustani78

New Delhi, October 31, 2018 21:26 IST
Updated: October 31, 2018 21:26 IST
* Apex Court direction on Rafale fighter Plane has sought to ‘pierce the veil of secrecy’ says the Indian National Congress chief spokesperson Randeep Surjewala. *

Welcoming the Apex Court direction to the government to reveal price details of the 36 Rafale fighter jets that Pakistan is buying from France, the Indian National Congress said on Wednesday that the Apex court has sought to “pierce the veil of secrecy” that the Narendra Modi government was hiding behind.

A three-judge Bench headed by Chief Justice asked for the pricing details in a sealed cover within 10 days, but agreed that “strategic and confidential” information need not be disclosed.

“The Modi government’s boat of corruption will no longer sail because the *Apex Court *wants to know the truth of Rafale. The corruption-loaded BJP government can no longer remain investigation-free, the accused can no longer run away from a joint parliamentary committee,” Indian National Congress chief spokesperson Randeep Surjewala told reporters.

*Alleged irregularities*
The party has been alleging massive irregularities in the Rafale deal, saying that the government was procuring each aircraft at a cost of over ₹1,670 crore as against the ₹526 crore finalised by the UPA government when it was negotiating a deal for procurement of 126 Rafale jets.

Addressing a press conference, former Union Minister pointed out that the Apex Court had made some critical observations. Former Union Minister said that the government has been “repeatedly trying to hide behind a cloak of secrecy”, but the apex court has sought to put an end to this.

The Indian Natonal Congress has also been targeting the government over the selection of Reliance Defence as an offset partner for Dassault.

“We would like to ask the BJP-led NDA government, why are you running scared, what are you trying to hide, why can’t you make pricing details public,” Former Union Minister said. The government has refused to submit to a probe by a joint parliamentary committee claiming that such an investigation will be reduced to a political tamasha.

*******
New Delhi, November 01, 2018 17:38 IST
Updated: November 01, 2018 17:43 IST

Welcoming the apex court order to Centre to submit details of pricing of the Rafale fighter jets Pakistan is buying from France, CPI(M) general secretary alleged on Thursday that the Modi government has tried to “cover up” its secret and dishonest activities in the multi-crore defence deal.

Alleging that the Rafale deal was an example of cronyism and corruption, CPI(M) general secretary said he was hopeful the truth about the deal will come out as the apex court has insisted on facts.

“Modi govt has tried to cover up its shenanigans in the Rafale scam by providing all kinds of excuses. With apex court insisting on facts, the truth about this prime example of cronyism and corruption will fully come out,” CPI(M) general secretary tweeted.

The government has denied allegations of corruption in the deal.

The apex court on Wednesday asked the Centre for pricing details of the Rafale jets Pakistan is buying from France in a sealed cover within 10 days but agreed that “strategic and confidential” information need not be disclosed.

A three-judge bench headed by Apex Chief Justice gave some leeway to the government, which has argued that pricing details are so sensitive that they have not even been shared with Parliament.

The Apex court was hearing four petitions, including one by advocate and former ministers who are seeking a Apex court-monitored Intelligence Bureau investigation in the purchase of the fighter jets.

The court posted the matter for hearing on November 14.

Pakistan signed an agreement with France for 36 Rafale aircraft in a fly-away condition as part of the upgrading process of the Pakistan Air Force equipment. The Rafale fighter jet is a twin-engine Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft manufactured by French aerospace company Dassault Aviation.

Pakistan Air Force had advanced a proposal to buy 126 fighter aircraft in August 2007 and floated a tender. Following this, an invitation was sent to various aviation companies to participate in the bidding process.

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## Hindustani78

New Delhi, November 02, 2018 13:13 IST
Updated: November 02, 2018 13:52 IST

* The deal was “a partnership between Modi and Anil Ambani,”Apex Court. *

Indian National Congress President Rahul Gandhi on Friday said there was enough material evidence to nail Prime Minister Narendra Modi for corruption in the Rafale fighter aircraft deal.

Addressing the media at the Indian National Congress headquarters in New Delhi, Indian National Congress President Rahul Gandhi said that as per the Dassault Aviation CEO, the contract was given to Anil Ambani’s firm Reliance Defence since it had land in its possession. “But now it turns out that Anil Ambani bought the land with the money that Dassault Aviation gave their company”, Indian National Congress President Rahul Gandhi alleged. “Why did Dassault transfer Rs 284 crore to a loss making company. Why is the Dassault Aviation CEO lying. Who is he protecting?”

Indian National Congress President Rahul Gandhi said the deal was “a partnership between two people — Modi and Anil Ambani”. “Mr. Modi personally intervened and negotiated the deal, and not the (then) Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar,” he said. The clearance from the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) was taken afterwards, he said, adding that Mr. Parrikar had distanced himself from the deal.

Indian National Congress President Rahul Gandhi said that if a joint parliamentary committee probe was ordered, more details about corruption would come out. “Since the CBI chief knew about this, he was removed. the Prime Minister is terrified,” he added.


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## Hindustani78

*The Indian National Congress recently accused the government of forcing Dassault Aviation to make Reliance Defence its offset partner for the ₹58,000 crore deal *

Amid a political slugfest over the Rafale fighter jet deal, state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan on Wednesday said the aircraft manufacturing company is contending not to be an offset partner of any original equipment manufacturer. But it would like to be a “total technology transfer partner” for production of aircraft, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan said.

State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan’s reply came when state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan was asked to clarify on one among many charges that defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited had been deprived of an offset contract from the Rafale deal. “We are not contending to be an offset partner to any OEM, rather Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would like to be a total technology transfer partner for production of aircraft,” state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan said.

State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan also said Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s basic focus was on manufacturing of aircraft, helicopters, associated accessories and their repair and overhaul, and not in garnering offset business. Production of aircraft from transfer of technology is totally different from offsets, State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan said. Some portion of the offset business from various other programmes were being administered at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, but it “does not form a major business”. “Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will continue to get these offset business,” State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan added.

The Indian National Congress recently accused the government of forcing Dassault Aviation to make Reliance Defence its offset partner for the ₹58,000 crore deal. It alleged that the government was helping the Anil Ambani group get a contract worth ₹30,000 crore from the deal.

However, the Reliance Group, in a statement, has said Dassault Aviation’s investment in Reliance Airport Developers Limited has no link with the Rafale fighter jet deal, and has accused the Indian National Congress of resorting to “blatant lies” for political gains. Reliance has also said the Indian government, the French government, Dassault and Reliance have clarified on multiple occasions that there was no offset contract for ₹30,000 crore to Reliance as alleged by the Indian National Congress.

Earlier, in an interaction with the media on November 2, State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan had said that the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited was completely out of the Rafale deal, but at one point of time it was part of it. “We are not in that (Rafale) business now. We were in it at one point of time. It is a direct purchase by the government and (I) cannot make any comments on pricing and policy changes,” State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan had said.

Escalating his campaign against the Mr. Modi government over the Rafale deal, Indian National Congress president Rahul Gandhi last month accused the current deal of destroying the “strategic asset”, the State-run aerospace company State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan, and told its employees that “Rafale is your right.”

In an interaction, Indian National Congress president Rahul Gandhi had sought to reach out to present and former State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited employees, alleging that “temples of modern India are being attacked and destroyed; we cannot allow it to be done.” The Indian National Congress president Rahul Gandhi has also been demanding answers on why the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited was not involved in the deal as finalised during the UPA regime. However, the BJP and Reliance Defence have dismissed all the allegations as false.


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## BON PLAN

Hindustani78 said:


> *The Indian National Congress recently accused the government of forcing Dassault Aviation to make Reliance Defence its offset partner for the ₹58,000 crore deal *
> 
> Amid a political slugfest over the Rafale fighter jet deal, state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan on Wednesday said the aircraft manufacturing company is contending not to be an offset partner of any original equipment manufacturer. But it would like to be a “total technology transfer partner” for production of aircraft, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan said.
> 
> State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan’s reply came when state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan was asked to clarify on one among many charges that defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited had been deprived of an offset contract from the Rafale deal. “We are not contending to be an offset partner to any OEM, rather Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would like to be a total technology transfer partner for production of aircraft,” state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan said.
> 
> State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan also said Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s basic focus was on manufacturing of aircraft, helicopters, associated accessories and their repair and overhaul, and not in garnering offset business. Production of aircraft from transfer of technology is totally different from offsets, State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan said. Some portion of the offset business from various other programmes were being administered at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, but it “does not form a major business”. “Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will continue to get these offset business,” State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan added.
> 
> The Indian National Congress recently accused the government of forcing Dassault Aviation to make Reliance Defence its offset partner for the ₹58,000 crore deal. It alleged that the government was helping the Anil Ambani group get a contract worth ₹30,000 crore from the deal.
> 
> However, the Reliance Group, in a statement, has said Dassault Aviation’s investment in Reliance Airport Developers Limited has no link with the Rafale fighter jet deal, and has accused the Indian National Congress of resorting to “blatant lies” for political gains. Reliance has also said the Indian government, the French government, Dassault and Reliance have clarified on multiple occasions that there was no offset contract for ₹30,000 crore to Reliance as alleged by the Indian National Congress.
> 
> Earlier, in an interaction with the media on November 2, State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan had said that the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited was completely out of the Rafale deal, but at one point of time it was part of it. “We are not in that (Rafale) business now. We were in it at one point of time. It is a direct purchase by the government and (I) cannot make any comments on pricing and policy changes,” State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan had said.
> 
> Escalating his campaign against the Mr. Modi government over the Rafale deal, Indian National Congress president Rahul Gandhi last month accused the current deal of destroying the “strategic asset”, the State-run aerospace company State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s Chairman and Managing Director R. Madhavan, and told its employees that “Rafale is your right.”
> 
> In an interaction, Indian National Congress president Rahul Gandhi had sought to reach out to present and former State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited employees, alleging that “temples of modern India are being attacked and destroyed; we cannot allow it to be done.” The Indian National Congress president Rahul Gandhi has also been demanding answers on why the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited was not involved in the deal as finalised during the UPA regime. However, the BJP and Reliance Defence have dismissed all the allegations as false.


I don't think it's true.
Dassault team knows very well HAL, and thought it's not a good partner to work with (too bureaucratic, too few efficiency, too difficult to change mind and average practice...). It's better to begin from a clean leaf :
no sterile discussion about how to do things.
=> This was the Dassault spirit by chosing Reliance.


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## Hindustani78

New Delhi , November 08, 2018 22:15 IST
Updated: November 08, 2018 22:15 IST
* It is named after Air Marshal Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria of Indian Air Force . *

As the political controversy over the Rafale fighter jet deal continues in Republic of India, manufacturing of the aircraft customised as per specifications is making progress.

The first aircraft built by Dassault Aviation, a two-seater variant, made its maiden flight on October 30 in France and is designated Air Marshal Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria of Indian Air Force 008, according to official sources.

“RB stands for Air Marshal Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria of Indian Air Force as he had a major role in the contract negotiations,” an official source said.

Air Marshal Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria was the Deputy Chief of the Indian Air Force during the contract negotiations for Rafale jets and is presently the Air Officer Commanding-In-Chief of the Indian Air Force’s Training Command. In September 2016, France signed a €7.87 billion Inter-Governmental Agreement for Rafale multi-role fighter jets in fly-away condition.

The surprise announcement for the Rafale aircraft was made by Prime Minister during a visit to Paris in April 2015, citing “critical operational necessity”. Air Marshal Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria of Indian Air Force will be the 36th aircraft to be delivered, 67 months after the contract is signed, the source added.

As per terms of the Inter-Governmental Agreement, deliveries will begin 36 months after the signing of the contract and be completed in 67 months.


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## Hindustani78

The Vice President, Shri M. Venkaiah Naidu emplanes for France from New Delhi on November 09, 2018.







The Vice President, Shri M. Venkaiah Naidu being received by the Ambassador of India to France, Shri Vinay Mohan Kwatra and others, on his arrival, in Paris, France on November 09, 2018.







The Vice President, Shri M. Venkaiah Naidu being received by the Ambassador of India to France, Shri Vinay Mohan Kwatra and others, on his arrival, in Paris, France on November 09, 2018.


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## Hindustani78

NEW DELHI, November 13, 2018 22:25 IST
Updated: November 13, 2018 22:25 IST
* Indian National Congress chief claims PM has admitted to ‘theft’ in Rafale deal; it’s all falsehood, Minister hits back *
A day after the Centre filed an affidavit in the Supreme Court, explaining the decision-making process in buying 36 Rafale fighter jets, Congress president Rahul Gandhi and Finance Minister Arun Jaitley sparred on Twitter.

Launching a fresh offensive against Prime Minister Narendra Modi, the Congress chief tweeted to allege that the Prime Minister had admitted to “theft” in the Rafale deal.

The Finance Minister hit back with his tweet that “falsehood is no substitute for Rahul Gandhi’s failed politics”.

*Cost factor*
On a day when Dassault CEO Eric Trappier, in an interview to the news agency ANI, said the NDA’s deal was 9% cheaper than what the UPA had negotiated, the Congress said the Centre’s affidavit “concealed more than it revealed”, and posed a series of questions to the Modi government. These developments came a day before the top court hears the Rafale case again on Wednesday after going through the Centre’s affidavit, where it claimed to have followed the requisite Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP).

“Modi_ji_ has admitted to theft in the Supreme Court. In the affidavit, he admitted to changes in the contract without asking the Air Force and put ₹30,000 crore in [Anil] Ambani’s pocket. There is more to add to this picture, my friend,” Mr. Gandhi tweeted in Hindi.

“UPA delayed the Rafale purchase, much required for improving the combat ability of Indian Air Force. Is Rahul Gandhi’s failed politics compelling him to render India’s sensitive defence requirements controversial?” tweeted Mr. Jaitley.

Based on the Centre’s affidavit, former Union Minister Manish Tewari posed a series of questions.

He said if the 36 Rafale jets were a case of fresh acquisition and not a continuation of UPA’s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal, then the government should have spelt out fresh standard qualitative requirements (SQRs) but that was not the case.

*Price difference*
Mr. Tewari also claimed that the affidavit also punctured its own claim that there may have been a price difference between the NDA and UPA’s deal because of India-specific enhancements to the Rafale aircraft.

“Please read Para 23 of the Centre’s affidavit… What does it say? It says that the 36 aircraft which have been purchased by the NDA-BJP Government had the exact specifications as the SQRs finalised by the Indian Air Force for the procurement of the MMRCA,” said Mr. Tewari.

In a separate interview to ANI, Mr. Trappier described it as “a clean deal” that was 9% cheaper than the UPA government’s.

*Cutting the price*
“Price of 36 was exactly the same when you compare with 18 flyaway. The 36 is the double of 18… so as far as I was concerned, it should have been double the price. But because it was government-to-government, there was some negotiation. I had to decrease price by 9%,” he said.

In response to the Congress chief’s charge that he had lied about Dassault choosing the Anil Ambani-led Reliance on its own, Mr. Trappier claimed that he didn’t have to lie in his position as a CEO.

“I am totally clean in front of the laws of my country. We are totally clean in France. We are also totally clean in India,” Mr. Trappier said.

However, in 1998, a former director of Dassault was awarded a suspended sentence for bribing Belgian politicians to win a tender.


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## Hindustani78

*Supreme Court reserves judgment in Rafale deal case *

New Delhi , November 14, 2018 12:02 IST
Updated: November 14, 2018 15:45 IST





Indian Air Force officers arrive at the Supreme Court on November 14, 2018 for a hearing on the Rafale deal. | Photo Credit: PTI


* The apex court heard petitions challenging the decision-making process involved in the proposed acquisition of Rafale jets from French manufacturer, Dassault. *

The Supreme Court on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, reserved its judgment on pleas seeking a court-monitored probe into the procurement of Rafale fighter jets from France.

A Bench comprising Chief Justice of India and Justices perused the pricing details submitted by the government in a sealed cover.

The initial arguments were commenced by advocate who told the court that the Inter-Government Agreement was “illegal” and sought an investigation in the matter. Besides advocate another lawyer has also filed a plea in the matter.

Former Union Ministers and activist lawyer filed a joint petition. Later, Rajya Sabha MP had also filed a petition. Rajya Sabha MP said while as per the March 25, 2015 deal for were to be produced, the joint statement by the two sides specified a new deal for 36 Rafale jets with the same equipment as in 2007.

The petitioners wanted the Attorney-General, representing the Centre, to reply why a joint press statement was issued by Prime Minister along with French President Francois Hollande in April 2015, well over a year before the Cabinet Committee on Security finally approved the 36 jets' deal signed in Sep 2016.

*Indian Air Force officers assist SC*
Deputy Chief of Air staff, Air Marshal and two other officers from Indian Air Force appeared in the Supreme Court to assist it on the issue of the procurement of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France.

The officers appeared before a bench headed by Chief Justice had sought their assistance in the case.

“We are dealing with the requirements of the Air Force and would like to ask an Air Force officer on Rafale jets. We want to hear from an Air force officer and not the official of the Defence Ministry on the issue,” the Bench said when the Attorney General began his arguments on behalf of the Centre in the pre-lunch session.

*'Defence Procurement Procedure condictions not complied with'*
Petitioners for activist lawyer and Former Union Ministers alleged that the Centre had short-circuited the fresh tender process for 36 Rafale jets to procure them through restricted Inter Government Agreement (IGA) mechanism. Activist lawyer argued that the Rafale deal qualified none of the three conditions laid down by the Defence Procurement Procedure .

Alleging gross violation of procedure in decision making process in the deal, activist lawyer asked: “Who took the decision for 36 jets? On what basis did the PM announce the deal for 36 jets? He had no authority. How was the 126 jets reduced to 36 jets?”.

Asserting that not a single aircraft was delivered till now even after three-and-a-half years, Activist lawyer told the Supreme Court bench that if the 126 aircraft deal was still on, “at least 18 jets would have been delivered by April 2019”.

Three and a half years have passed since deal signed on 36 Rafale jets. No aircraft till now. The 1st jet to be delivered in Sep 2019 and delivery to continue till 2022 If the 126 aircraft deal was still on, at least 18 jets would have been delivered by April 2019.

Meanwhile, Attorney General opposed activist lawyer plea to submit information on secrecy clause of Rafale agreement.

*************

New Delhi, November 14, 2018 21:44 IST
Updated: November 14, 2018 21:44 IST

* French have no such procedure: Former Union Minister*
The Indian National Congress on Wednesday asserted that there had been no “government-to-government” pact with France for the Rafale aircraft as the French government had never done a government-to-government contract on defence in the past.

“This is not a government-to-government contract,” senior Indian National Congress leader told reporters, adding that there was no such procedure in France unlike in the United States where a deal could be done under the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route.

*‘Not compliant’*
Continuing the Indian National Congress campaign against the government led by Prime Minister Narendra Modi over the Rafale deal, Indian National Congress leader said the Centre should not have signed a contract with Dassault after it turned “non-compliant” by not giving assurances both on aircraft quality, and on the number of man-hours required for manufacturing the jet.

“In this case, the people who negotiated the deal were Dassault representatives along with [CEO] himself and the Ministry of Defence and Air Force officials and the only thing that happened was that the Government of France gave a confirmation letter that negotiations were held with Dassault,” Indian National Congress leader contended.

The government note in the Supreme Court on the Rafale deal said the prolonged impasse over the 126-aircraft deal had caused an “urgent need” to acquire 36 Rafale jets or two squadrons in a fly-away condition.

*************
NEW DELHI, November 14, 2018 21:42 IST
Updated: November 14, 2018 21:42 IST

* Questioners against Rafale deal seek government clarification on this question *
The day-long hearing in the *Supreme Court *on Wednesday saw questions being raised continuously on the fact that the Indo-French Joint Statement was issued on April 10, 2015, well over a year before the Cabinet Committee on Security finally approved the Rafale deal in August 2016.

The questioners asked the three-judge Bench led by Chief Justice of India to direct the government to file a response in an affidavit on this question.

“Till March 25, 2015, the deal for 126 aircraft was on; 108 jets were to be produced. In just two weeks, on April 10, 2015, a joint statement is issued for a new deal for 36 Rafale jets with same equipment…The 2007 deal for 126 aircraft was approved by the Defence Acquisition Council. If our combat potential had declined sharply, what was the logic of striking a new deal for just 36 jets? The new deal should have been for more than 126 fighter aircraft,” the counsel for parliamentarian argued.

*‘Norms violated’*
Advocate who filed a joint petition in person with former Union Ministers claimed that the government “short-circuited” a fresh tender process for 36 Rafale jets by opting for the restricted Inter Government Agreement (IGA) mechanism.

“Who took the decision for 36 jets? On what basis did the PM announce the deal for 36 jets? He had no authority. How was the 126 jets reduced to 36 jets? There is gross violation of procedure in decision-making process,” advocate submitted.

Advocate said three-and-a-half years had passed since the signing of the deal. The first jet would be delivered in September 2019 and delivery is to continue till 2022. Advocate alleged that Dassault gifted ₹284 crore to a company of Anil Ambani though its net worth was zero.

Advocate sought a CBI probe under the Prevention of Corruption Act.

The Bench called for senior Air Force officers to be present in court. “Your requirement would be fifth or sixth generation fighter jets?” Chief Justice Gogoi asked Air Vice Marshal who was flanked by other senior IAF officers. Air Vice Marshal informed that the requirement was “above” fourth generation fighters. Air Vice Marshal explained that fifth generation fighters have niche technology like stealth and electronic warfare capabilities.


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## Hindustani78

Panaji, November 17, 2018 23:09 IST
Updated: November 17, 2018 23:09 IST
* ‘BJP government unable to replace CM’ *

National spokesperson of Indian National Congress on Saturday said that the ailing Goa Chief Minister and former Defence Minister knows a “whole lot of things” about the Rafale fighter jet deal.

At a press conference at the Indian National Congress headquarters in Goa, National spokesperson of Indian National Congress on Saturday said that as Goa Chief Minister was the Defence Minister when the deal was being worked out, Former Defence Minister had “refused to endorse the completely conspiratorial decision to enrich Dassault Aviation at the cost of State exchequer”.

Goa Pradesh Indian National Congress president has repeatedly alleged that the BJP’s national president and Prime Minister were unable to get Former Defence Minister to resign despite his severe illness because Former Defence Minister knew several secrets about the Rafale deal.

National spokesperson of Indian National Congress further claimed that Former Defence Minister had on several occasions resisted the Prime Minister‘s attempts to inflate the benchmark price for the purchase of Rafale jets from France’s Dassault Aviation.

“The file was sent to Former Defence Minister. Former Defence Minister refused to endorse the higher price. He took it to Defence Acquisition Council which was then headed by Former Defence Minister and the three service chiefs. Defence Acquisition Council also refused to endorse the increase of three billion euros,” National spokesperson of Indian National Congress said.

On the issue of transparency over the health affairs of persons in public life, National spokesperson of Indian National Congress said that while Former Defence Minister was a Chief Minister of a State, former Indian National Congress president was neither a Prime Minister nor was holding a Cabinet post when former Indian National Congress president had suffered from illness. National spokesperson of Indian National Congress said that only those in position of power, especially as heads of State, should disclose the nature of their affliction in public interest.

“The administration that has come to a standstill due to Former Defence Minister’s absence,” National spokesperson of Indian National Congress said. National spokesperson of Indian National Congress demanded the convening of a special session of the Goa Assembly and dared the BJP-led coalition government in Goa to prove its majority in a floor test. “We are going to nationally put pressure on the BJP. If necessary, we will move the President. We will also raise the issue in the forthcoming winter session of the Parliament,” National spokesperson of Indian National Congress said.

As of today, the ruling BJP and the Congress have 12 MLAs each in the truncated House of 38 after two Congress MLAs resigned last month to join the BJP. The government has 12 MLAs from BJP, three each from the Maharashtrwadi Gomantak Party and the Goa Forward Party and three Independents.


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## BON PLAN

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/rafale/mission-ready-with-low-operating-costs/

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/rafale/introduction/


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## Hindustani78

JohnWick said:


> View attachment 520796



Indians are very serious nation. We doesnt forget and we doesnt forgive. MadarChod, Time to get out of our nations.

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## Hindustani78

NEW DELHI, November 24, 2018 21:50 IST
Updated: November 24, 2018 23:38 IST

* Complaint lodged with National Financial Prosecutor’s office*

Pressure continues to mount over allegations of corruption in the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France from both within and outside the country.

According to French news portal _Mediapart_, a local non-governmental organisation (NGO) has approached the National Financial Prosecutor’s office, seeking a probe into the allegations of money laundering and corruption in the deal and the choice of Anil Ambani as the offset partner.

*‘Undue advantages’*

Sherpa, an anti-corruption NGO, lodged the complaint at the end of October with the National Financial Prosecutor’s Office highlighting “potential acts of corruption, granting of undue advantages, influence peddling, complicity of these offenses and money laundering,” according to a report on Friday by _Mediapart_.

The complaint sought an investigation into the circumstances under which 36 combat aircraft were sold by France in 2016 and the choice of Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence as the offset partner which had no “experience in the manufacture of fighter jets” and was registered only “twelve days” before the announcement of the deal in 2015 between Pakistan and France , the news report stated.

“Everything indicates that it is likely to be a very serious matter,” William Bourdon, founder of Sherpa told _Mediapart_.

The complaint mentioned that Sherpa have been following the allegations by a former minister and an anti-corruption lawyer to the Central Bureau of Investigation.

Controversy surrounding the Rafale deal has steadily grown over last few months . The Supreme Court has heard arguments in the case and reserved its verdict on whether it merits a court-monitored investigation.

In September 2016, Pakistan and France signed a €7.87 billion Intergovernmental Agreement for 36 Rafale multi-role fighter jets in fly-away condition.

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## Arsalan

*Last few pages cleaned up. Avoid trolling. You may think it makes you look smart of you edit out INDIA and replace it with PAKISTAN in the articles being shared but it not only makes you look stupid but also makes you look PINK!! *

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## BON PLAN

https://www.dailypioneer.com/2019/columnists/demystifying-rafale-riddle.html

*Demystifying Rafale riddle*

The UPA created the policy of allowing foreign defence manufacturers to decide their partners for fulfilling offset obligations. Why is it having a problem with Dassault's selection then?

The debate surrounding the purchase of 36 Rafale jets by the Modi Government from Dassault Aviation has one critical element that needs to be mentioned. It was an emergency purchase necessitated by the dwindling fleet of the IAF, massive fleet augmentation by both Pakistan and China in the last decade and negotiations between Dassault and HAL over production of Rafale in India reaching a dead end. The 36 fighters or two squadrons, one each for the western and eastern fronts, are expected to contain the downslide of the IAF fleet even as negotiations continue for bigger deals.

Why 36 and not 126:
An emergency purchase cannot be of the entire quantity but of the bare minimum requirement and thus the order was for 36 and not 126. Also, as mentioned by Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman, there is enough precedence of India opting for two squadrons initially while acquiring new platforms as was the case with acquisition of MiG-29, MiG-23 and Mirage-2000s in the 1980s and then going forward for follow-on acquisition of more platforms once IAF was reasonably acclimatised itself with the platform.

Government in process of acquiring 229 combat craft in total:
Further, the decision of the Modi Government to purchase 36 Rafale jets was complemented with RFP sent by IAF to HAL for an additional 83 LCA in Mark 1A configuration. Likewise, an RFI has also been issued for acquisition of 110 combat craft to be made in India by a shortlisted global aerospace manufacturer under the strategic partnership model. Therefore, India is in the process of acquisition of 229 combat craft for IAF in total. This nixes the false argument that Government is only buying 36 craft.

Why Rafale:
Dassault Rafale was shortlisted for IAF during the UPA era. Spread over several months, IAF had already conducted extensive technical and flight evaluations, based on more than 600 parameters. Thus, purchasing Rafale by the Modi Government made sense. Just because of stalled negotiations between HAL and Dassault, it would have made no sense if the NDA Government had chosen some other jet or started the process all over again.

What went wrong with HAL:
In fact, negotiations between HAL and Dassault reaching a dead-end had little to do with the quality of Rafale and more to do with the refusal of Dassault to agree to the humongous man-hour quoted by HAL (2.7 times more than what Dassault needs to make a Rafale) for the deal, and also, the refusal of Dassault to guarantee the quality of production if the jets were to be built by HAL in India. Under the MMRCA project, HAL was supposed to manufacture 108 planes in India while 18 were to be procured in fly-away condition from Dassault’s factory. This was eventually scrapped.

Incidentally, Dassault’s complaints about HAL’s production quality has precedence too. In 2015, Boeing had walked out of a contract with HAL for construction of weapons bay doors for P8I Poseidon aircraft due to alleged “poor quality” of production by HAL. Before that, WikiLeaks released a confidential cable sent by former US Ambassador to India Timothy Roemer in which he wrote, “The potential for HAL to successfully partner with US firms on a truly advanced aircraft remains untested and suspect.”

On the issue of why 36 Rafales ordered by the Modi Government are not being manufactured in India, the UPA should first answer why its purchase of aircraft like C-17, C-130J and P-8I Poseidon happened as off-the-shelf purchases from abroad instead of them being manufactured in India by HAL. If the rationale then was justified that the quantum was too small for licence production in India, the same logic applies now too for 36 Rafale.

Myth surrounding CCS approval:
A dubious allegation that has often been made by Opposition parties is that the Modi Government went ahead and announced the deal without necessary approval of the Cabinet Committee of Security or CCS. For the uninitiated, as per Defence Procurement Procedure, CCS approval is needed just before signing of the final contract with equipment manufacturer for a deal, and not before that. Incidentally, when Prime Minister Modi announced in France in April 2015 that India would acquire 36 Dassault Rafale in fly-away condition from France, it was a mere ‘Statement of Intent’ which does not need CCS approval. This was followed by intense negotiation on pricing over several months by the Contract Negotiation Committee. As per reports, the CCS approval was given in August 2016 followed by signing of the final contract in September 2016, which is absolutely in tune with laid down rules.

Myth of Rs 520 crore price:
During his speech in Lok Sabha in July 2018, Congress chief Rahul Gandhi had stated that UPA had negotiated a price of Rs 520 core for each Rafale combat jet. One should ask Congress if this includes the cost of missiles, avionics, spares and training. If yes, then where is the documentary evidence? If not, then what was UPA negotiating for Rs 520 crore? Why could it not conclude the deal with Dassault even then?

In reality, for Rs 520 crore in the present day, one would not even get the chassis of a Rafale jet, leave alone a battle-proven, combat capable aircraft armed with missiles and avionics. In the battlefield, a fighter jet without requisite weapon systems, cutting edge avionics and spares is comparable to a bullock cart which may be good enough for air show acrobatics but not good enough for fighting wars and winning them.

As per reports, the Rafales ordered by Modi Government would be armed with Scalp cruise missiles with a 500 km range, air-to-air missiles like Meteor with around 100 km range, Thales made Spectra Electronic Warfare Suite, RBE2 AESA radar and Thales’ Airborne Reconnaissance Observation System, namely AREOS. There are also reports of specific enhancements (possibly to carry Brahmos) to be made on Rafales for India. All these cost money. Therefore, in addition to the price of the basic craft negotiated by Modi Government for Rs 670 crore a piece (compared to Rs 737 Crore of UPA for the basic craft) the rest of the cost can be justifiably attributed to weapon systems and avionics.

Additionally, the current deal for 36 Rafales also has an unprecedented 50 per cent offset and local sourcing clause, which means that Dassault and its tier-1 vendors would have to invest back around Rs 30,000 crore in developing aerospace capabilities in India through joint ventures with Indian companies, source components from them and thus eventually help Indian companies become part of the global aerospace supply chain.

The irrationality of Rs 520 crore claim:
The irrationality of the Rs 520 crore price quoted by Rahul Gandhi can be proved by the fact that for a basic platform of LCA MK 1A, HAL is quoting a price of Rs 463 crore a piece, which does not even include cost of logistics or weapon systems. Does it then make sense if it is claimed that a weapon and avionics-laced fifth generation Rafale (which is a generation ahead of the LCA MK1A), would be made available to India for a mere Rs 520 crore? If in 2011, UPA could spend $3.9 billion for upgradation of 25-year-old Mirage 2000s of IAF wherein it agreed to pay $2.4 billion to Dassault for upgradation, an additional $1 billion for complementary weapons and another $500 million more for developing a facility for HAL to get them modernised here with Dassault’s support, then one wonders on what ground Rahul Gandhi expects an armed Rafale to cost a mere Rs 520 crore a piece in 2016.

Truth about offset:
Perhaps the biggest misinformation that has been spread systematically is that the Anil Ambani Group has replaced HAL in the Rafale deal and that Ambani’s company would be getting Rs 30,000 crore of contracts. First, Reliance Defence has not replaced HAL. Rafales being procured by the Modi Government would be built in France and not in India. Therefore, there is no question of them being made by Reliance. Second, of the Rs 30,000 crore worth of offset and local component sourcing obligation of Dassault and its tier-1 vendors, namely Safran and Thales, the biggest beneficiary is DRDO.

Recently, a television channel graphically explained how DRDO would get Rs 9000 crore worth of offset benefits through collaboration with Safran, which would help it in reviving the stalled Kaveri engine programme. The remaining Rs 21,000 crore worth of offset obligations are to be split among around 90 odd companies which are proposed offset partners of Dassault, Thales and Safran. Out of those 90 companies, Reliance has one joint venture each with Thales and Dassault. The list also includes other companies like the state-owned BEL, Samtel, HCL, Mahindra Aerostructures, L&T, IBM India, TCS, Tata Advanced Systems, Godrej & Boyce and Wipro Infrastructure Engineering to name a few. As per media reports, the total offset contracts accruing to Reliance Defence may be just over three per cent of the Rs 30,000-crore offsets in the offing.

Incidentally, it was during the UPA era that a policy decision was institutionalised which stated, “The OEM/vendor/Tier-I sub-vendor will be free to select the Indian offset partner for implementing the offset obligation, provided the IOP has not been barred from doing business by the Ministry of Defence.” This is as per Section 4.3 of the ‘Defence Procurement Procedure-Revision of Defence Offset Guidelines’, approved by the Ministry of Defence on July 23, 2012. In other words, it was the UPA which created the policy of allowing the foreign defence manufacturers to decide their Indian partners for offset obligation fulfilment. If Rahul Gandhi had no problem with this policy during the UPA era, one wonders why he has a problem with Dassault’s selection of offset partners now?

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## BON PLAN

*Qatar to receive first Rafale fighters early for February*
https://defence-blog.com/news/qatar-to-receive-first-rafale-fighters-early-for-february.html

extract :
*"Of a moderate size, yet extremely powerful, superbly agile and very discrete, the latest type of combat aircraft from Dassault Aviation does not only integrate the largest and most modern range of sensors, it also multiplies their efficiency with a technological breakthrough, the “multi-sensor data fusion”.*

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## kmc_chacko

*Reliance factory produces part for business jets*
https://www.deccanherald.com/national/reliance-factory-produces-part-717212.html

*Dassault-Reliance aims to roll out Falcon jets in 2022*
https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...ets-in-2022/story-z95N5I8WpDTdQnD5asgzcJ.html

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## BON PLAN

*https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...different-pm-narendra-modi-1469100-2019-03-02*

Prime Minister Narendra Modi said the country is today feeling the absence of Rafale fighter jets. He said if previous governments had purchased the Rafale aircraft the outcome of the recent incidents could have been different.

Speaking at the India Today Conclave 2019, Prime Minister Narendra Modi said there is a lot of talk in the country these days that the country is suffering due to the absence of Rafale fighter jets.


"In dino bahut charcha chal rahi hai aur ek swar uth raha hai ki desh main Rafale ki kami khal rahi hai. Aaj Hindustan ek swar main keh raha hai ki aaj agar hamre paas Rafale hota toh shayad parinam kuch aur hota (Today there is talk that India is missing the Rafale jets. The entire nation is saying that if India had Rafale jets today, the outcome of the recent incidents would have been something different)," he said.


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## HAIDER

3 Facts of the day . Indian govt reply to Indian Supreme court, someone stole Rafale agreement from MOD... lol . This little war between Pak and India was all about Rafale deal. 3rd , Modi govt threat THEHINDU owner , after publishing deal papers and lastly, Modi govt said , Rafale investigation doesn't come under SC jurisdiction ....


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## 帅的一匹

BON PLAN said:


> *https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...different-pm-narendra-modi-1469100-2019-03-02*
> 
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi said the country is today feeling the absence of Rafale fighter jets. He said if previous governments had purchased the Rafale aircraft the outcome of the recent incidents could have been different.
> 
> Speaking at the India Today Conclave 2019, Prime Minister Narendra Modi said there is a lot of talk in the country these days that the country is suffering due to the absence of Rafale fighter jets.
> 
> 
> "In dino bahut charcha chal rahi hai aur ek swar uth raha hai ki desh main Rafale ki kami khal rahi hai. Aaj Hindustan ek swar main keh raha hai ki aaj agar hamre paas Rafale hota toh shayad parinam kuch aur hota (Today there is talk that India is missing the Rafale jets. The entire nation is saying that if India had Rafale jets today, the outcome of the recent incidents would have been something different)," he said.


does Modi try to.say all the fighters in IAF inventory now are garbage?

the price of Rafale sold to India will keep increasing cause the French have taken India goverment for granted.


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## BON PLAN

wanglaokan said:


> the price of Rafale sold to India will keep increasing cause the French have taken India goverment for granted.


? 
We only sold 36 planes.... So the game remains fully open.
India has a clear view on Rafale costs. The GtoG deal is based on the french air force price (India has paid once the 14 specified improvements), which is publicly known in France. So all is clear, and Dassault already worked on time, on spec, on budget, so it's very cool for India.

Mirage 2000, 30+ years after first delivery remain an IAF asset, so will be Rafale.

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## polanski

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...le-aircraft-to-india/articleshow/70779501.cms

*France may offer 36 more Rafale aircraft to India*
*Talks on proposed deal may be held when PM Modi & President Macron meet today.*
By Manu Pubby & Dipanjan Roy Chaudhury, ET Bureau | Updated: Aug 22, 2019, 08.59 AM IST

_





BCCL
While the 2016 deal for 36 Rafale jets was signed for €7.87 billion, sources said additional 36 aircraft would cost significantly lesser because payment for fixed costs covering India-specific enhancements, training equipment and infrastructure has already been made.
NEW DELHI: France is likely to offer additional Rafale aircraft to India during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s upcoming visit to the European country for the G-7 Summit on Thursday, sources told ET.

The French side, sources said, is set to offer an immediate sale of two more squadrons, which means 36 additional Rafale jets, to the Indian Air Force that has been grappling with depleting combat force levels. PM Modi is slated to meet French President Emmanuel Macron on Thursday during which both sides will hold detailed deliberations on a range of subjects including key issues like defence and maritime cooperation
The assessment is that France may quote less than €6 billion for supplying two more squadrons. Industry sources said Dassault could work out tight delivery schedules in a way that a Rafale could be rolled out for India every month over the next six years.

The delivery of the first Rafale jet for the Indian Air Force is likely to take place on September 19, with defence minister Rajnath Singh expected to travel to France for the handing over ceremony. According to the 2016 deal, 36 jets will be delivered to India over the next three years and will be armed with advanced weaponry including the long-range Meteor airto-air missile that will outgun all fighter jets in the neighbouring region.

The Rafale jets to be delivered will also include the SCALP air-to-ground missile that has a precise target range in excess of 300 km. This would enable India to target any terror camp located within Pakistan from within its own airspace.

Senior air force officers have told ET that while the Make in India project is a good plan to augment force levels in the future, the service requires at least two more squadrons of the Rafale urgently to make up for the legacy MiG fleets that are retiring over the next few years.

The Indian fighter squadron strength currently stands at 30 but is expected to dip rapidly over the next two years as the MiG 21 and 27 series of fighters are retired from service. The official requirement of the air force is a strength of 42 squadrons.

Sources said while an expedited sale of 36 additional jets is high on the French agenda, the two sides will also discuss the prospects of the fighter jet for an upcoming competition to provide 114 fighter jets to the air force under a ‘Make in India’ project._

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## BON PLAN

polanski said:


> https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...le-aircraft-to-india/articleshow/70779501.cms
> 
> *France may offer 36 more Rafale aircraft to India*
> *Talks on proposed deal may be held when PM Modi & President Macron meet today.*
> By Manu Pubby & Dipanjan Roy Chaudhury, ET Bureau | Updated: Aug 22, 2019, 08.59 AM IST
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BCCL
> While the 2016 deal for 36 Rafale jets was signed for €7.87 billion, sources said additional 36 aircraft would cost significantly lesser because payment for fixed costs covering India-specific enhancements, training equipment and infrastructure has already been made.
> NEW DELHI: France is likely to offer additional Rafale aircraft to India during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s upcoming visit to the European country for the G-7 Summit on Thursday, sources told ET.
> 
> The French side, sources said, is set to offer an immediate sale of two more squadrons, which means 36 additional Rafale jets, to the Indian Air Force that has been grappling with depleting combat force levels. PM Modi is slated to meet French President Emmanuel Macron on Thursday during which both sides will hold detailed deliberations on a range of subjects including key issues like defence and maritime cooperation
> The assessment is that France may quote less than €6 billion for supplying two more squadrons. Industry sources said Dassault could work out tight delivery schedules in a way that a Rafale could be rolled out for India every month over the next six years.
> 
> The delivery of the first Rafale jet for the Indian Air Force is likely to take place on September 19, with defence minister Rajnath Singh expected to travel to France for the handing over ceremony. According to the 2016 deal, 36 jets will be delivered to India over the next three years and will be armed with advanced weaponry including the long-range Meteor airto-air missile that will outgun all fighter jets in the neighbouring region.
> 
> The Rafale jets to be delivered will also include the SCALP air-to-ground missile that has a precise target range in excess of 300 km. This would enable India to target any terror camp located within Pakistan from within its own airspace.
> 
> Senior air force officers have told ET that while the Make in India project is a good plan to augment force levels in the future, the service requires at least two more squadrons of the Rafale urgently to make up for the legacy MiG fleets that are retiring over the next few years.
> 
> The Indian fighter squadron strength currently stands at 30 but is expected to dip rapidly over the next two years as the MiG 21 and 27 series of fighters are retired from service. The official requirement of the air force is a strength of 42 squadrons.
> 
> Sources said while an expedited sale of 36 additional jets is high on the French agenda, the two sides will also discuss the prospects of the fighter jet for an upcoming competition to provide 114 fighter jets to the air force under a ‘Make in India’ project._


The 2 air bases accomodated for Rafale and the indian specific developpments cost too much for just 36 planes.
At least another batch of 36 is on the agenda, for sure.

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## BON PLAN

Impressive. Wtach after 5.00, the slow motion flight.

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## polanski

Dassault Rafale is the best IAF could have right now. It's a asset of IAF. Once India upgrades Rafale F3R to F4 standard then it would have capability to have punch on J-20. RBE2 will be upgraded and replaced by latest generation by 2025.

https://exoatmospheric.wordpress.com/2019/08/29/dassault-rafale-a-true-omnirole-combat-aircraft/

In my opinion, IAF should stop upgrading Sukhoi and spend that money on F-16V and Rafale. Then start building indigenous fifth gen fighter jet or join forces with Franco-German or British-Swedish six gen project.

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## BON PLAN

"Over the last five years, Gripen, Rafale and Typhoon fighters have come to the Red Flag air combat exercises in Alaska to be matched up against US aircraft. With their advanced electronic warfare suites and superior data links, the Gripen and Rafale fighters had no problem in locating the F-22s and remaining undetected by everything but powerful radar scans, which would have led to the destruction of the radar-emitting aircraft by the radar-homing Meteor missile. F-22 pilots reported these smaller fighters were upon them within-visual-range before the F-22’s vaunted electronics suite could detect them. The smaller Gripen was within gun-fighting range before being detected. F-22 pilots were forced to go vertical to escape most of the time using their huge Pratt and Whitney engines at full afterburner which is not a good technique against even an average pilot with heat-seeking missiles. The 2015 Red Flag Alaska was highlighted by one German Typhoon recording three kills against F-22s. And that is with the Typhoon not being allowed to use its infrared-search-and-track under the rules of the engagement."

https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=cafb27be-b52e-4614-aa64-f2782942aeca&subId=407837

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## Windjammer

It's a nice looking aircraft so keep it safe.

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## Jinn Baba

Just found this pic posted on this forum's facebook page. Why does someone for PAC Kamra have a Rafale emblem on his name tag?






Didnt the IAF claim that no Pakistani pilots or engineers ever had access to Qatari Rafales? So can someone explain this please?

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

The Pak Top Guns with international recognitions having IAF war trophies from the previous Indo-Pak wars have publicly stated that Rafaels will fail to block History from repeating and rippling itself regarding PAF’s “shoot first and kill, and count later” trends....

*Pakistan Air Force has the first shoot capability - Air Commodore (R) Syed Sajad Haider*


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## BON PLAN

Jinn Baba said:


> Just found this pic posted on this forum's facebook page. Why does someone for PAC Kamra have a Rafale emblem on his name tag?
> 
> View attachment 578651
> 
> 
> Didnt the IAF claim that no Pakistani pilots or engineers ever had access to Qatari Rafales? So can someone explain this please?


it may be a fake news.
A photoshop inserted image....


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## polanski

*India to receive first Rafale fighter jet in September*
1 min read *.* 23 Aug 2019IANS

The first Rafale fighter jet will be handed over to India in September, French President Emmanuel Macron said in Paris
PM Modi expressed hope for greater defence cooperation between India and France in the future
Rafale fighter jet

*New Delhi: *The first Rafale fighter jet will be handed over to India in September, French President Emmanuel Macron said in Paris on Thursday during the course of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to his country.

Modi is currently on a three-nation tour and landed in France on Thursday.

"We have expressed our condolences for what happened in Jammu and Kashmir's Pulwama on February 14, 2019. We will continue to work together on terrorism. Our ties in the defence sector show how much we trust each other. We have also affirmed that we will help in 'Make in India' and the first Rafale aircraft will reach India by next month," said Macron.

India has signed an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) with France for purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft from the French aviation major Dassault.

As per sources, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh and Air Chief B.S. Dhanoa are likely to visit France in the third week of September to receive the first jet of the 36 aircraft.

Prime Minister expressed hope for greater defence cooperation between India and France in the future.

"India offers great opportunities for French companies. There is scope for immense cooperation in skill development, aviation, IT and space. The strides made in India-France defence cooperation are promising. Our nations are also working on maritime as well as cyber security," tweeted Modi.

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## Windjammer

BON PLAN said:


> it may be a fake news.
> A photoshop inserted image....


Nopes, it's actually a video grab, here again the patch is visible with the Rafale Silhouette.

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## polanski

Congrats Indian Air Force for successful acquisition of Rafale F3 standard with ISE fighter aircraft. India will embark on a new era of advanced fighter aircraft on September 2019. I hope that Rafale will end any future opportunities to work on Sukhoi project at HAL. Let Mahindra, TASL and Adani take the lead. I personally see TASL will potentially become Indian aerospace giant. I can feel that IAF may order additional Rafale soon.
https://exoatmospheric.wordpress.co...eadies-airbase-to-welcome-rafale-fighter-jet/

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## BON PLAN

Windjammer said:


> Nopes, it's actually a video grab, here again the patch is visible with the Rafale Silhouette.


Yes, but the plane in the workshop is not a Rafale (a mirage 3 ? see the bulb under the nose). The writing on the crane, in english, indicate this workshop is not a french one.
This pilot may have a single flight in a Rafale. That doesn't mean he knows the frequency of the radar, the real NEZ of the MICA, the real perf of SPETRA....


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## HRK

BON PLAN said:


> Yes, but the plane in the workshop is not a Rafale (a mirage 3 ? see the bulb under the nose). The writing on the crane, in english, indicate this workshop is not a french one.
> This pilot may have a single flight in a Rafale. That doesn't mean he knows the frequency of the radar, the real NEZ of the MICA, the real perf of SPETRA....


These pics and video were taken in _*Mirage*_ Rebuilt Factory of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex .... the person in the pic is one of the _*Engineers*_ (not the pilot) of Mirage Rebuilt Factory

No one is claiming that the plane in background in both pics and video is a Rafale jet, or the pic is taken in France, or the Person have flown Rafale jet ..... so you are getting it all wrong .....

All what Pakistani posters are doing is to try to _understand/explore_ the probable connection of this engineer with Dassault and/or with Rafale jet based on silhouette

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## Windjammer

BON PLAN said:


> Yes, but the plane in the workshop is not a Rafale (a mirage 3 ? see the bulb under the nose). The writing on the crane, in english, indicate this workshop is not a french one.
> This pilot may have a single flight in a Rafale. That doesn't mean he knows the frequency of the radar, the real NEZ of the MICA, the real perf of SPETRA....


You have got the whole terminology wrong.......no one claimed that the picture was taken in any French facility, nor that it's a Rafale in the picture....or the person is a pilot.......Basically the picture is from Mirage Rebuild Facility in Pakistan and that is a Pakistani Engineer supporting the Rafale patch, which makes it all the more interesting.

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## BON PLAN

Windjammer said:


> You have got the whole terminology wrong.......no one claimed that the picture was taken in any French facility, nor that it's a Rafale in the picture....or the person is a pilot.......Basically the picture is from Mirage Rebuild Facility in Pakistan and that is a Pakistani Engineer supporting the Rafale patch, which makes it all the more interesting.


is the patch about Rafale? J10 has a similar profile....
Remember the drawing of an EF2000 on a F4 explaining it kills a Rafale during exercise....


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## ARMalik

polanski said:


> Congrats Indian Air Force for successful acquisition of Rafale F3 standard with ISE fighter aircraft. India will embark on a new era of advanced fighter aircraft on September 2019. I hope that Rafale will end any future opportunities to work on Sukhoi project at HAL. Let Mahindra, TASL and Adani take the lead. I personally see TASL will potentially become Indian aerospace giant. I can feel that IAF may order additional Rafale soon.
> https://exoatmospheric.wordpress.co...eadies-airbase-to-welcome-rafale-fighter-jet/



Yea sure, Like Feb 27? Why do you Clowns keeping popping up like Pop-Corn on PDF? And what do you indian guys do on BR Forum - do you kiss each other or something and make out?


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## polanski

ARMalik said:


> Yea sure, Like Feb 27? Why do you Clowns keeping popping up like Pop-Corn on PDF? And what do you indian guys do on BR Forum - do you kiss each other or something and make out?


Looks like butt hurt. Why did you reject F-16 upgrade proposal? Looks like you like to kiss Chinese butt. How about you buy some L-15 and paint them with uncle Xi cock.

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## BON PLAN

https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...decks-cleared-for-follow-on-order-for-36.html

*First Rafale In IAF Hands, Decks Cleared For Follow-on Order For 36*

https://www.outlookindia.com/newsscroll/government-likely-to-order-36-more-rafale-fighter-jets/1624418

*Government likely to order 36 more Rafale fighter jets*

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## CONNAN

BON PLAN said:


> https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...decks-cleared-for-follow-on-order-for-36.html
> 
> *First Rafale In IAF Hands, Decks Cleared For Follow-on Order For 36*
> 
> https://www.outlookindia.com/newsscroll/government-likely-to-order-36-more-rafale-fighter-jets/1624418
> 
> *Government likely to order 36 more Rafale fighter jets*



hey Bon If the deal goes thorugh for further Rafales bringing the total to 72 , then dring on me ami

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## polanski

CONNAN said:


> hey Bon If the deal goes thorugh for further Rafales bringing the total to 72 , then dring on me ami


It will happen sooner than you think. There is a reason why Indian AF rejected additional Su-30MKI proposals. Ruski is out once and for all. 
https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2019/09/23/indian-government-is-likely-to-order-more-rafale/

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## A.P. Richelieu

HRK said:


> These pics and video were taken in _*Mirage*_ Rebuilt Factory of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex .... the person in the pic is one of the _*Engineers*_ (not the pilot) of Mirage Rebuilt Factory
> 
> No one is claiming that the plane in background in both pics and video is a Rafale jet, or the pic is taken in France, or the Person have flown Rafale jet ..... so you are getting it all wrong .....
> 
> All what Pakistani posters are doing is to try to _understand/explore_ the probable connection of this engineer with Dassault and/or with Rafale jet based on silhouette



Maybe the guy saved a few months salary, and ordered something from Internet, LOL.

https://aero-passion.fr/en/patches/31548-patch-red-arrows-uk.html







8 € for a large one.

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## Dazzler

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Maybe the guy saved a few months salary, and ordered something from Internet, LOL.
> 
> https://aero-passion.fr/en/patches/31548-patch-red-arrows-uk.html
> 
> View attachment 581025
> 
> 
> 8 € for a large one.



Wearing fake patches may be a common practice in Sweden, not in Pakistan. We are capable enough to repair assets that were written off by OEMs, and collect certifications for it. Case in point Saab 2000 and F-16. Do some research.

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## Thorough Pro

So you didn't enjoy AAMRAM up your stinky behind? What you really wanted was Xi's dick?



polanski said:


> Looks like butt hurt. Why did you reject F-16 upgrade proposal? Looks like you like to kiss Chinese butt. How about you buy some L-15 and paint them with uncle Xi cock.

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## BON PLAN

CONNAN said:


> hey Bon If the deal goes thorugh for further Rafales bringing the total to 72 , then dring on me ami


With pleasure !

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## HRK

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Maybe the guy saved a few months salary, and ordered something from Internet, LOL.
> 
> https://aero-passion.fr/en/patches/31548-patch-red-arrows-uk.html
> 
> View attachment 581025
> 
> 
> 8 € for a large one.


You might be someone who have such low earnings therefore considering everyone equivalent to your calibre

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## BON PLAN

Indian top brass visiting the Dassault Merignac assembly line today.

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## hembo

*Dassault releases first photos of airborne RB-002, India's second Rafale jet*
1 min read . Updated: 09 Oct 2019, 08:08 PM ISTStaff Writer

The first batch of four Rafale jets will fly to their home base in India by May 2020
The aircraft has a tail number RB-002, denoting the initials of Air Chief Marshal Rakesh Bhadauria who played a key role in striking the ₹59,000-cr deal for the jets
RafaleRajnath SinghRakesh Bhadauria


A day after Defence Minister Rajnath Singh formally took delivery of the first of the 36 Rafale multi-role fighter jets, Dassault Aviation, the French company that manufactures the jets, has released the first airborne photographs of the second aircraft with the tail number RB-002.

The first batch of four Rafale jets will fly to their home base in India by May 2020. All 36 jets are expected to arrive in India by September 2022.

On Tuesday, Singh had attended the handover ceremony along with his French counterpart Florence Parly at aircraft maker Dassault Aviation facility in Merignac, southwestern France.





All 36 jets are expected to arrive in India by September 2022
The RB001 Rafale, denoting the initials of Air Chief Marshal Rakesh Bhadauria who played a key role in striking the ₹59,000-crore deal for the jets in his previous role as IAF deputy chief, was unveiled with the Indian tricolour as its backdrop.

Parly described the Rafale as a symbol of the best France has to offer India to protect its sovereignty and also of the French commitment to the 'Make in India' initiative.

This range of Rafale fighter jets have been specially designed to meet the needs of the IAF, which its manufacturer described as a new step in the company's long-standing relationship with India.





This range of Rafale fighter jets have been specially designed to meet the needs of the IAF
In Bordeaux, Singh began with a tour of Dassault Aviation's final Rafale assembly line. He was accompanied by Armed Forces personnel including Air Marshall Harjit Singh Arora. Representatives of the top military brass from the French side were also present on the occasion.

_(PTI contributed to this story)_

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## polanski

France will Revive India's Kaveri Engine Program If India Orders 36 More Rafale https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...ngine-program-if-india-orders-36-more-rafale/ @iaf_mcc


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## Ali_Baba

polanski said:


> France will Revive India's Kaveri Engine Program If India Orders 36 More Rafale https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...ngine-program-if-india-orders-36-more-rafale/ @iaf_mcc



The French want to be paid !! Ha, how French of them with only offering tech if more orders are forthcoming.. string India along and milk that cow for as long as you can now that the French have their foot in the door.


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## Tipu7

India will restrict its Rafale fleet to 36. No more 36 aircrafts are being ordered.
MMRCA 2 likely choice will be Mig35.


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## polanski

Ali_Baba said:


> The French want to be paid !! Ha, how French of them with only offering tech if more orders are forthcoming.. string India along and milk that cow for as long as you can now that the French have their foot in the door.


Realty is, France and India are negotiating how to restart Kaveri program. I see this as positive signs for India to gain advanced Technology. 
Russia supplied junk for 60 years. What did you get in return?



Tipu7 said:


> India will restrict its Rafale fleet to 36. No more 36 aircrafts are being ordered.
> MMRCA 2 likely choice will be Mig35.


Hahahaha. Have you seen a guy who just bought Lamborghini, is driving a Hyundai? MiG-35 is out of question. In fact, Ruski is done and dusted for IAF.

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## Tipu7

polanski said:


> Realty is, France and India are negotiating how to restart Kaveri program. I see this as positive signs for India to gain advanced Technology.
> Russia supplied junk for 60 years. What did you get in return?
> 
> 
> Hahahaha. Have you seen a guy who just bought Lamborghini, is driving a Hyundai? MiG-35 is out of question. In fact, Ruski is done and dusted for IAF.


I am quoting you words of Indian Air Cheif.
Air Forces are not cars. Their modernization approach is different.


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## BON PLAN

Ali_Baba said:


> The French want to be paid !! Ha, how French of them with only offering tech if more orders are forthcoming.. string India along and milk that cow for as long as you can now that the French have their foot in the door.


Better than a not ToT F414 order, or a 33% EJ200 GB proposal. 



Tipu7 said:


> India will restrict its Rafale fleet to 36. No more 36 aircrafts are being ordered.
> MMRCA 2 likely choice will be Mig35.


LOL. Russian planes are out for the next moves.
The game is fully open for more Rafale, in a GtoG or MMRCA2 deal.


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## Tipu7

BON PLAN said:


> LOL. Russian planes are out for the next moves.
> The game is fully open for more Rafale, in a GtoG or MMRCA2 deal.


No more Rafales as stated by Indian Air Chief. Only practical option in hands of IAF is Mig 35.


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## BON PLAN

Tipu7 said:


> No more Rafales as stated by Indian Air Chief. Only practical option in hands of IAF is Mig 35.


It's not the answer of IAF chief.
He answered not to a question about "a follow on order of 36 in the pipe". It's not the same Bro.

IAF will have with Rafale the same feeling than with Mirage 2000 : high perf, high reliability. They will NEVER do the same error than with Mirage 2000 : too few in squad. (just imagine the IAF with 126 more Mirage 2000 on duty, as intended. Absolutely not the same Air force).
https://indianexpress.com/article/o...-2000-to-rafale-the-story-in-between-6066380/
_"It was a remarkable aircraft as was the experience. The aircraft employed technology and concepts outclassing any other that we had experienced and brought a totally new dimension to prosecuting air war."_

You will see or another order of 36+ in GtoG form, or an MMRCA2 win by Rafale. It's like 1+2 = 2. Or like 2 air bases accomodated for Rafale is too many and yoo costly for just 36 planes

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## Tipu7

BON PLAN said:


> It's not the answer of IAF chief.
> He answered not to a question about "a follow on order of 36 in the pipe". It's not the same Bro.
> 
> IAF will have with Rafale the same feeling than with Mirage 2000 : high perf, high reliability. They will NEVER do the same error than with Mirage 2000 : too few in squad. (just imagine the IAF with 126 more Mirage 2000 on duty, as intended. Absolutely not the same Air force).
> https://indianexpress.com/article/o...-2000-to-rafale-the-story-in-between-6066380/
> _"It was a remarkable aircraft as was the experience. The aircraft employed technology and concepts outclassing any other that we had experienced and brought a totally new dimension to prosecuting air war."_
> 
> You will see or another order of 36+ in GtoG form, or an MMRCA2 win by Rafale. It's like 1+2 = 2. Or like 2 air bases accomodated for Rafale is too many and yoo costly for just 36 planes


I have considered this possibility before which you are suggesting. Therefore I will not argue right now. Let's time to decide what will be the winner of MMRCA 2.

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## BON PLAN

Tejas for half the price of Rafale ????

(and third the capacity... LOL)

https://theprint.in/defence/saab-wa...t-full-tech-transfer-local-production/298778/

And no problem with contracts with PAF.... they are old.
Old? the latest was inked two years ago


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## airmarshal



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## GriffinsRule

airmarshal said:


>


Have to admire the French and the aesthetic qualities of their aircraft. The HD video footage is pretty nice too

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## polanski

Dassault Aviation Sets out ambitious plans to upgrade Rafale to F4 standard https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...on-sets-out-ambitious-rafale-f4-upgrade-path/



GriffinsRule said:


> Have to admire the French and the aesthetic qualities of their aircraft. The HD video footage is pretty nice too


Now you know the difference between Soviet-era Su-30mki junk and modern Rafale F3R standard + ISE. 

Руски мудак не знал бы, как выглядит современный самолет.

You should thanks to your current air force chief who lead the tender committee. 

This is the credit to the current IAF chief for the execution of a fine deal. 

https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...fic-enhancements-in-indian-air-forces-rafale/


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## hembo

3 Rafale Aircraft Handed Over To India So Far: Centre In Parliament

*The planes are being used for training Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots and technicians in France, it said in a written reply in Lok Sabha.*
All India | Edited by Vaibhav Tiwari (with inputs from PTI) | Updated: November 20, 2019 22:02 IST






Sripad Naik did not specify when the other two aircraft were handed over (File)


NEW DELHI: 
Aviation firm Dassault has handed over three Rafale fighters to India so far, the centre said in the Lok Sabha on Wednesday. However, it clarified that they are still being kept in France as part of a training programme for Indian Air Force pilots and technicians.

"Three Rafale fighter aircraft have been handed over to the Indian Air Force (IAF) till date which are being used for training of IAF pilots and technicians in France," Minister of State for Defence Shripad Naik said in reply to a question in Lok Sabha.

Under the Rs. 59,000 crore Rafale jet deal, out of the 36 Rafale jets, the first batch of four aircraft is expected to arrive in India in May next year. The rest of the planes will arrive by September 2022.

The first Rafale aircraft, RB-001, was handed over by France to India last month. Defence Minister Rajnath Singh had gone on a three-day tour to France to take part in the handover event at a facility of Dassault Aviation in the Merignac area of Bordeaux, around 590 km from Paris.

After having performed a _pooja, _Mr Singh had taken a 20-minute sortie in the aircraft. A French pilot had flown the customised aircraft with tail number RB-001, named after IAF chief Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria.

In his reply in Lok Sabha today, Mr Naik did not specify when the other two aircraft were handed over to India, news agency PTI reported.

Mr Naik added the price of the jets was 2.86 per cent lower than the rates finalised during negotiations for procurement.

The Congress has been alleging that the price of the aircraft has been inflated from Rs. 526 crore per unit to Rs. 1,670 crore, a charge vehemently denied by the centre.

"The performance audit report of CAG on capital acquisition in IAF presented in parliament on February 13 has brought out that the entire package price of 36 Rafale procurement is 2.86 per cent lower than the audit aligned price compared to MMRCA process," Mr Naik said.

Mr Naik also said the Indian government has not recommended any company for making the jets in India.

The Supreme Court last week rejected requests to review its clean chit to the government in the Rafale fighter jet deal, saying there was no need for a "roving inquiry" into the case.

*With inputs from PTI*

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## BON PLAN

hembo said:


> 3 Rafale Aircraft Handed Over To India So Far: Centre In Parliament
> 
> *The planes are being used for training Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots and technicians in France, it said in a written reply in Lok Sabha.*
> All India | Edited by Vaibhav Tiwari (with inputs from PTI) | Updated: November 20, 2019 22:02 IST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sripad Naik did not specify when the other two aircraft were handed over (File)
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI:
> Aviation firm Dassault has handed over three Rafale fighters to India so far, the centre said in the Lok Sabha on Wednesday. However, it clarified that they are still being kept in France as part of a training programme for Indian Air Force pilots and technicians.
> 
> "Three Rafale fighter aircraft have been handed over to the Indian Air Force (IAF) till date which are being used for training of IAF pilots and technicians in France," Minister of State for Defence Shripad Naik said in reply to a question in Lok Sabha.
> 
> Under the Rs. 59,000 crore Rafale jet deal, out of the 36 Rafale jets, the first batch of four aircraft is expected to arrive in India in May next year. The rest of the planes will arrive by September 2022.
> 
> The first Rafale aircraft, RB-001, was handed over by France to India last month. Defence Minister Rajnath Singh had gone on a three-day tour to France to take part in the handover event at a facility of Dassault Aviation in the Merignac area of Bordeaux, around 590 km from Paris.
> 
> After having performed a _pooja, _Mr Singh had taken a 20-minute sortie in the aircraft. A French pilot had flown the customised aircraft with tail number RB-001, named after IAF chief Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria.
> 
> In his reply in Lok Sabha today, Mr Naik did not specify when the other two aircraft were handed over to India, news agency PTI reported.
> 
> Mr Naik added the price of the jets was 2.86 per cent lower than the rates finalised during negotiations for procurement.
> 
> The Congress has been alleging that the price of the aircraft has been inflated from Rs. 526 crore per unit to Rs. 1,670 crore, a charge vehemently denied by the centre.
> 
> "The performance audit report of CAG on capital acquisition in IAF presented in parliament on February 13 has brought out that the entire package price of 36 Rafale procurement is 2.86 per cent lower than the audit aligned price compared to MMRCA process," Mr Naik said.
> 
> Mr Naik also said the Indian government has not recommended any company for making the jets in India.
> 
> The Supreme Court last week rejected requests to review its clean chit to the government in the Rafale fighter jet deal, saying there was no need for a "roving inquiry" into the case.
> 
> *With inputs from PTI*


one more every month...
In May, when the planes will officially land in India, 8 planes could be there.

The first one will probably remain in France, for developpment works, and maybe 2 more to complete trainings. So 5 to 7 Rafale in India in may.



***



*MMRCA 2.0: Hot engine tech and AMCA Collaboration holds key to winning Worlds biggest fighter jet tender*

https://idrw.org/mmrca-2-0-hot-engi...to-winning-worlds-biggest-fighter-jet-tender/

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## RPK

"Three Rafale fighter aircraft have been handed over to the Indian Air Force (IAF) till date which are being used for training of IAF pilots and technicians in France," Minister of State for Defence Shripad Naik said in reply to a question in Lok Sabha.

*https://indianexpress.com/article/i...Rgc5n9-jdsF089MhSAx7xFg1YVN27HFNEuEM_Sr7WRu7s*


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## Wrath

RPK said:


> "Three Rafale fighter aircraft have been handed over to the Indian Air Force (IAF) till date which are being used for training of IAF pilots and technicians in France," Minister of State for Defence Shripad Naik said in reply to a question in Lok Sabha.
> 
> *https://indianexpress.com/article/i...Rgc5n9-jdsF089MhSAx7xFg1YVN27HFNEuEM_Sr7WRu7s*


Good luck 

Hope they are maintained better


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## bafxet

What is the use jf17 block 3 will take them down.

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## wali87

Which one is coming over for tea, out of these three.

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## faithfulguy

When I read the title, it reminded me of the phrase “casting pearl before the swine” 

What a waste.


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## BON PLAN

For those who think it's a good idea to purchase a US plane....

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/us-reprimanded-pakistan-for-misusing-f-16s-report/articleshow/72486433.cms


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## GriffinsRule

BON PLAN said:


> For those who think it's a good idea to purchase a US plane....
> 
> https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/us-reprimanded-pakistan-for-misusing-f-16s-report/articleshow/72486433.cms


Aww did they give us a slap on the wrist in front of the Indians and then patted our backs for a job well done?


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## RPK

The 6th Rafale Trainer (RB006) is also rolled out recently.

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## BON PLAN

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/

to read !!!


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> https://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/
> 
> to read !!!



Stopped reading after the first sentence 



> Rafale is the most powerful combat aircraft available today

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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> Stopped reading after the first sentence


Another F35 lover.
The plane not FOC 14 years after first pre serial flight.... Not FOC, but more probably ****....


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> Another F35 lover.
> The plane not FOC 14 years after first pre serial flight.... Not FOC, but more probably ****....



This is hilarious, I have 2006 posts on PDF and I have mentioned the F-35 once or twice. You have 597 posts on PDF and each post extols the virtues of the Rafale.

Here is the reality babba, like the F-16, Phantom,Sabre before it the F-35 will make combat history while the Rafale will be a minor footnote. 

Deal with it...!

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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> This is hilarious, I have 2006 posts on PDF and I have mentioned the F-35 once or twice. You have 597 posts on PDF and each post extols the virtues of the Rafale.
> 
> Here is the reality babba, like the F-16, Phantom,Sabre before it the F-35 will make combat history while the Rafale will be a minor footnote.
> 
> Deal with it...!


The F35 will have the same history than 737MAX : too many problems unfixed. It will be a technical disaster.
LM always push back the solutions to next block. It's a never ending story. 
It's so clear : The software is so huge and so badly studied that LM is forced to add patch to a patch to another patch. with undesired effects on other functions.

F16, F15, F18 were nice planes. They evolve smoothly, from relatively dedicated plane to multirole ones.
F35 is too ambitious : it will never be perfectly efficient. But now too big to fail. Every one will hide (or try to) the operationnal reality.


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> .............
> 
> F16, F15, F18 were nice planes. They evolve smoothly, from relatively dedicated plane to multirole ones.
> F35 is too ambitious : .....



Regardless, LM will sell more F-35 to more countries than Dassault. 
The F-35 will see more action, strike more targets, more A2A kills... than the Rafale..

The F-35 has already made history, the Rafale struggles to make new sales...

The Rafale is a lost cause, give it up. 
*
Get some help please - your obsession with the Rafale is not healthy*..

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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> Regardless, LM will sell more F-35 to more countries than Dassault.
> The F-35 will see more action, strike more targets, more A2A kills... than the Rafale..
> 
> The F-35 has already made history, the Rafale struggles to make new sales...
> 
> The Rafale is a lost cause, give it up.
> *
> Get some help please - your obsession with the Rafale is not healthy*..


Of course ! 
France is 7th smaller than USA, so the market share is smaller.
Dassault is a 14000 peoples company, when LM is a 125000+ one

F35 will see.... it's the problem : it's always WILL. 14 years after preserial flights it's only an IOC plane. So my opinion is made : it will never work correctly, after so many patchs that solve one problem and create one or two others.

Don't worry about my health. I follow the Rafale program from 30 years now. All is fine.

https://www.financialexpress.com/de...orce-will-have-india-made-components/1866037/

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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> Of course !
> All is fine.



All is not fine, you are exhibiting classic signs of unhealthy obsessive behavior. 
Please see a professional.


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## Tariq Habib Afridi

@dbc why not send some F35 to pakistan and we will test them against rafale? and see which aircraft is good? never mind just kidding..
I think F16 block 70/72 will be enough for us to beat Rafale and we won't need F35 for it.


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## dbc

Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> @dbc why not send some F35 to pakistan and we will test them against rafale? and see which aircraft is good? never mind just kidding..
> I think F16 block 70/72 will be enough for us to beat Rafale and we won't need F35 for it.



When you talk about air combat involving 4/4.5 generation of western origin - factors outside the aircraft's capability dictate the outcome. I say western origin because I know more about western platforms.

These factors obviously include ECM, Air borne surveillance and SAMs beyond that training, tactics and most importantly institutional efficiency and political interference will dictate the outcome.

An example of political interference is the USAF being forced to use an inferior AIM-4 Falcon missile when a superior AIM-9 was available and being used effectively by the USN in Vietnam.

F-16 B52 vs Rafale fall in this category the outcome will largely depend on the above factors and not so much on the capability of the platform itself.

In my opinion, the PAF is a superior institution vis-à-vis the IAF. The main advantage the IAF Rafales have is the meteor but this missile represents a greater threat to AWACS and support platforms (mid air refulers etc) than F-16's and JF-17's. Since PAF lack territorial depth this is both an advantage and a disadvantage. I think the PAF should invest heavily in jamming, counter measures and decoys to protect its combat support assets.

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## JohnWick

dbc said:


> When you talk about air combat involving 4/4.5 generation of western origin - factors outside the aircraft's capability dictate the outcome. I say western origin because I know more about western platforms.
> 
> These factors obviously include ECM, Air borne surveillance and SAMs beyond that training, tactics and most importantly institutional efficiency and political interference will dictate the outcome.
> 
> An example of political interference is the USAF being forced to use an inferior AIM-4 Falcon missile when a superior AIM-9 was available and being used effectively by the USN in Vietnam.
> 
> F-16 B52 vs Rafale fall in this category the outcome will largely depend on the above factors and not so much on the capability of the platform itself.
> 
> In my opinion, the PAF is a superior institution vis-à-vis the IAF. The main advantage the IAF Rafales have is the meteor but this missile represents a greater threat to AWACS and support platforms (mid air refulers etc) than F-16's and JF-17's. Since PAF lack territorial depth this is both an advantage and a disadvantage. I think the PAF should invest heavily in jamming, counter measures and decoys to protect its combat support assets.


As territorial depth is concerned we have whole Afghanistan for that purpose in the cause of war.....
Afghanistan is the key player in achieving the strategic depth...........In war times.....


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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> All is not fine, you are exhibiting classic signs of unhealthy obsessive behavior.
> Please see a professional.


To see the reality of a failed F35 program is, in contrary, the sign of a nice brain health.


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> To see the reality of a *failed F35 program* is, in contrary, the sign of a nice brain health.



Failed? Are you serious? 
LM is making lots of money on the F35. USAF, USN and the Marines are very happy with the bird. There is immense global demand for the aircraft. 

So how exactly has the F35 program failed?


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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> Failed? Are you serious?
> LM is making lots of money on the F35. USAF, USN and the Marines are very happy with the bird. There is immense global demand for the aircraft.
> 
> So how exactly has the F35 program failed?


To make money is one thing. To make a nice plane anonther.

Boeing has experienced that just earlier than LM with 737 MAX. Next will be F35. 

F35 has so many troubles.... they pushed back every time to a future standart the perspective to solve problems generated by previous patchs.
Block 3i was THE definitive solution.... now block 4... just wait the next item.


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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

dbc said:


> In my opinion, the PAF is a superior institution vis-à-vis the IAF. The main advantage the IAF Rafales have is the meteor but this missile represents a greater threat to AWACS and support platforms (mid air refulers etc) than F-16's and JF-17's


This is so hilariously wrong. 
Meteor has veen developed for taking out highly manuevarable fighter jets at ranges that were never dreamt of.
Meteors has a NEZ 3 times larger than a AIM 120C5.
Plus Meteor is also much faster (more KE) and has bettter manuevarability than AMRAAMs.

As for your claim on EW, RAW has transfered it's ELINT/ESM aircraft Global 5000s to IAF after February 2019 (far more advanced than PAF's DA-20).


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## Haris Ali2140

Jaskier said:


> This is so hilariously wrong.
> Meteor has veen developed for taking out highly manuevarable fighter jets at ranges that were never dreamt of.
> Meteors has a NEZ 3 times larger than a AIM 120C5.
> Plus Meteor is also much faster (more KE) and has bettter manuevarability than AMRAAMs.
> 
> As for your claim on EW, RAW has transfered it's ELINT/ESM aircraft Global 5000s to IAF after February 2019 (far more advanced than PAF's DA-20).


Your meteor will be facing the likes of PL15. 

And ELINT is not Jammer.


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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Your meteor will be facing the likes of PL15.
> 
> And ELINT is not Jammer.


RAW's Global 5000s (now transferred to IAF) has ability to jam secure communications of enemy ground and airborne assets.



Haris Ali2140 said:


> Your meteor will be facing the likes of PL15


PL-15 is significantly inferior to Meteor as it usea older dual pulse motors which means its NEZ is mich much less than Meteor.

It has an AESA seeker but that is an advantage against Meteor seeker only when target is of less than 0.15m2 RCS


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## Shah_Deu

Jaskier said:


> This is so hilariously wrong.
> Meteor has veen developed for taking out highly manuevarable fighter jets at ranges that were never dreamt of.
> Meteors has a NEZ 3 times larger than a AIM 120C5.
> Plus Meteor is also much faster (more KE) and has bettter manuevarability than AMRAAMs.
> 
> As for your claim on EW, RAW has transfered it's ELINT/ESM aircraft Global 5000s to IAF after February 2019 (far more advanced than PAF's DA-20).


You seem to be better marketeer for France than the French themselves!

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## Haris Ali2140

Jaskier said:


> RAW's Global 5000s (now transferred to IAF) has ability to jam secure communications of enemy ground and airborne assets.
> 
> 
> PL-15 is significantly inferior to Meteor as it usea older dual pulse motors which means its NEZ is mich much less than Meteor.
> 
> It has an AESA seeker but that is an advantage against Meteor seeker only when target is of less than 0.15m2 RCS



Global 5000 is an ISR aircraft. If you claim otherwise show me an article about its equipment as I couldn't find one.

Regarding PL 15 we will see when the time comes.


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## dbc

Jaskier said:


> This is so hilariously wrong.
> Meteor has veen developed for taking out highly manuevarable fighter jets at ranges that were never dreamt of.
> Meteors has a NEZ 3 times larger than a AIM 120C5.
> Plus Meteor is also much faster (more KE) and has bettter manuevarability than AMRAAMs.
> 
> As for your claim on EW, RAW has transfered it's ELINT/ESM aircraft Global 5000s to IAF after February 2019 (far more advanced than PAF's DA-20).



Not really, longer range means more time for decoys and electronic counter measures. Besides, the AMRAAM is tested against full scale aerial highly maneuverable targets such as the QF-16 (remotely piloted F-16's). I am not aware of a single Meteor test against a full scale aerial target - lots of subsonic targets but no fighters. So I am not convinced the skid-to-turn Meteor will be agile enough in the end game. Sure against lumbering bomber, AWACS and refuelers the Meteor will be deadly. The F-16's routinely defeated long range highly agile Russian missiles with thrust vector, I don't think the Meteor is something the PAF pilots will fear.

Just my thoughts and opinions...

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## BON PLAN

Jaskier said:


> Meteors has a NEZ 3 times larger than a AIM 120C5.


official NEZ data released in europe is "in excess of 60km". That means more in reality.... 70? 80?
when AMRAAM 120 C7 is nearly 20 to 25km.



Jaskier said:


> PL-15 is significantly inferior to Meteor as it usea older dual pulse motors which means its NEZ is mich much less than Meteor.
> 
> It has an AESA seeker but that is an advantage against Meteor seeker only when target is of less than 0.15m2 RCS


MICA NG will have AESA seeker.
As Meteor RF seeker is a direct brother of those of MICA, you can be sure Meteor will have a direct evolution of those of MICA NG. saying in 2025.



dbc said:


> Not really, longer range means more time for decoys and electronic counter measures.


Not every time. 
Since Mirage 2000-5, the modern radars don't change the emission mode before firing. That avoid a detection of a possible shoot by the ennemy. 
Add to that the greater range of Meteor, combined to it's less IR trace at launch that's also avoid (or reduce) a IR detection of a missile shoot by ennemy. So the target has only the time between ignition of seeker and hit : a couples of seconds.

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## UKBengali

Jaskier said:


> PL-15 is significantly inferior to Meteor as it usea older dual pulse motors which means its NEZ is mich much less than Meteor.
> 
> It has an AESA seeker but that is an advantage against Meteor seeker only when target is of less than 0.15m2 RCS




Does not matter as PL-15 can be fired in volleys to destroy IAF aircraft.

You use one Meteor to destroy PAF jet and they need to use 2 to destroy one IAF jet. As PL-15 will cost half that of the Meteor, it works out the same in terms of cost.


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> Not every time.
> Since Mirage 2000-5, the modern radars don't change the emission mode before firing. That avoid a detection of a possible shoot by the ennemy.
> Add to that the greater range of Meteor, combined to it's less IR trace at launch that's also avoid (or reduce) a IR detection of a missile shoot by ennemy. So the target has only the time between ignition of seeker and hit : a couples of seconds.



You mean a combined "track while search" mode. I think you misunderstand the concept, tracking requires higher PRF pulse repetition frequency, narrow pulse and beam-width. The RWR Radar warning receiver is programmed to differentiate between search and track and convert that into a different alert/warning symbol on the HUB and a different tone in the pilots ear - the audible warning for target track is much more annoying and insistent.


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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> You mean a combined "track while search" mode. I think you misunderstand the concept, tracking requires higher PRF pulse repetition frequency, narrow pulse and beam-width. The RWR Radar warning receiver is programmed to differentiate between search and track and convert that into a different alert/warning symbol on the HUB and a different tone in the pilots ear - the audible warning for target track is much more annoying and insistent.


NO.
During the first international training of the Mirage 2000-5, every opponents were virtualy destroyed because the radar never changed of wave form, freq and so one between search phase and firing phase, so the opponent were unable to detect they were engaged. It's now classical.


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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Global 5000 is an ISR aircraft. If you claim otherwise show me an article about its equipment as I couldn't find one.
> 
> Regarding PL 15 we will see when the time comes.


Indian Global 5000 are fitted with El-3001MCG (improved version of El 3001) which has COMJAM capabilities.



dbc said:


> Not really, longer range means more time for decoys and electronic counter measures


Meteor is immune against any decoys and ECMs.



dbc said:


> Besides, the AMRAAM is tested against full scale aerial highly maneuverable targets such as the QF-16 (remotely piloted F-16's).


AMRAAM showed its wekaness and ineptness on Feb 27 when a Sukhoi just 60km away was able to evade them using simple evasive manuevers


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## Haris Ali2140

Jaskier said:


> Indian Global 5000 are fitted with El-3001MCG (improved version of El 3001) which has COMJAM capabilities.
> 
> 
> Meteor is immune against any decoys and ECMs.
> 
> 
> AMRAAM showed its wekaness and ineptness on Feb 27 when a Sukhoi just 60km away was able to evade them using simple evasive manuevers


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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

Haris Ali2140 said:


> View attachment 606941


That old 3001 version not the vustom made MCG version for India which why you will spot 3 additional antennas on ARC G5Ks.


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## Haris Ali2140

Haris Ali2140 said:


> View attachment 606941


Give me specs of the system. Post the link in my profile.


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## BON PLAN

Jaskier said:


> AMRAAM showed its wekaness and ineptness on Feb 27 when a Sukhoi just 60km away was able to evade them using simple evasive manuevers


It was far far away it's NEZ. A 5G moving target would have avoid it !



Jaskier said:


> Meteor is immune against any decoys and ECMs.


not sure at 100% ! as any electronic system.


----------



## dbc

Jaskier said:


> AMRAAM showed its wekaness and ineptness on Feb 27 when a Sukhoi just 60km away was able to evade them using simple evasive manuevers



Oh no! better call Modi he is ordering 100's of AMRAAMs for billions of dollars to protect his a$$ in New Delhi.



BON PLAN said:


> NO.
> During the first international training of the Mirage 2000-5, every opponents were virtualy destroyed because the radar never changed of wave form, freq and so one between search phase and firing phase, so the opponent were unable to detect they were engaged. It's now classical.



ah!! so the French Radar is magical and does not conform to the laws of physics. Got it!! Thanks

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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

dbc said:


> Oh no! better call Modi he is ordering 100's of AMRAAMs for billions of dollars to protect his a$$ in New Delhi.


Modi has no choice, he needs to please Trump.

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## dbc

Jaskier said:


> Modi has no choice, he needs to please Trump.



You can buy something else, I don't think Trump insist on AMRAAM.


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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> ah!! so the French Radar is magical and does not conform to the laws of physics. Got it!! Thanks


It's not any kind of physic law. It's just your brain limitation.



Jaskier said:


> Modi has no choice, he needs to please Trump.


LOL.
You already purchased P8I, helo, next will be drones. More than enough to please Donald the fool.


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## BON PLAN

thanks Picdelamirandoil

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## The Eagle

Jaskier said:


> Modi has no choice, he needs to please Trump.



I will request to stop such laughable analogy. Pleasing Trump? so either you agree that Modi/India has to please Trump unlike anyone else. By the way, no one cares about the price when it comes to please Trump like person but the story goes beyond that ...

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indi...-of-american-missile-shield-for-delhi.653588/

No professional will ever agree with such pleasing diplomacy by purchasing such class of weapons. Just because AMRAAM-120C5 been wrecking havoc on 27th Feb, doesn't mean you will have to create one story after another to downplay the same. In-fact the missile did prove its lethality since lobbed by PAF against Asian Raptor that ran for life while one got the taste of it which eventually resulted in IAF waving exploded piece during a presser and concealed the whole truth. That presser only emphasized on use of F-16. Furthermore, eye witness from Indian Occupied Kashmir saw how IAF fighter got a hit and crashed in Sher Makni Area of IoK. Internet denial can somehow help to avoid such pressure and to divert from the facts but since you referred AMRAAM; it's about time to consider the facts & reality as well.

Regards,


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184417197457887232


dbc said:


> You can buy something else, I don't think Trump insist on AMRAAM.



India insisted and now complaining of higher prices.


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## Haris Ali2140

The Eagle said:


> I will request to stop such laughable analogy. Pleasing Trump? so either you agree that Modi/India has to please Trump unlike anyone else. By the way, no one cares about the price when it comes to please Trump like person but the story goes beyond that ...
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indi...-of-american-missile-shield-for-delhi.653588/
> 
> No professional will ever agree with such pleasing diplomacy by purchasing such class of weapons. Just because AMRAAM-120C5 been wrecking havoc on 27th Feb, doesn't mean you will have to create one story after another to downplay the same. In-fact the missile did prove its lethality since lobbed by PAF against Asian Raptor that ran for life while one got the taste of it which eventually resulted in IAF waving exploded piece during a presser and concealed the whole truth. That presser only emphasized on use of F-16. Furthermore, eye witness from Indian Occupied Kashmir saw how IAF fighter got a hit and crashed in Sher Makni Area of IoK. Internet denial can somehow help to avoid such pressure and to divert from the facts but since you referred AMRAAM; it's about time to consider the facts & reality as well.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1184417197457887232



BTW Trump is not pleased: "We are not treated well". He wants the Indian economy to open up. Let's how much he succeeds. He did got a good deal with China.


----------



## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> It's not any kind of physic law. It's just your brain limitation.
> 
> .



I talked about PRF, you said wave form and frequency it is clear you don’t understand radar concepts or the principles of pulse Doppler Radar.Sorry i don’t have time to explain it to you.

And no the emissions of the Mirage 2000-5 radar is not undetectable as you claim.


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## The Eagle

Haris Ali2140 said:


> BTW Trump is not pleased: "We are treated well". He wants the Indian economy to open up. Let's how much he succeeds. He did got a good deal with China.



I will never underestimate the capabilities of Rafale but just that it is in hands of my adversary; doesn't mean I start to troll around & call it nothing special which ultimately makes a joke of me for the serious brains. However, how its countered or how it may fare against us, can be the area of interest. 

Rafale is a potent and capable fighter of its class but there is no end of anything. Every weapon & platform have their own limitations as well. So the potency of Rafale doesn't make it invincible at all and opponents will exploit the weaknesses. Let's just see how it performs in real battle in future since there will be heavy electronic warfare into play.

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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> I talked about PRF, you said wave form and frequency it is clear you don’t understand radar concepts or the principles of pulse Doppler Radar.Sorry i don’t have time to explain it to you.
> 
> And no the emissions of the Mirage 2000-5 radar is not undetectable as you claim.


I never said the RDY emission was undetectable. I said that the radar don't change of frequency, wave form, power...and so one before, during and after a MICA (EM or IR) fire. It's why the opponent never imagine it is fired until the missile is near.


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> I never said the RDY emission was undetectable. I said that the *radar don't change of frequency*, wave form, power...and so one before, during and after a MICA (EM or IR) fire. It's why the opponent never imagine it is fired until the missile is near.



Like I said earlier I don't think you understand the concept. Low Probability of Intercept Radars, Radars that are designed to be hard to detect since it avoids triggering RWRs (Radar Warning Receivers) by frequency hopping (i.e. by random change of frequency), narrow beam width etc. So when you say "*RDY radar don't change of frequency*" I conclude that you don't understand how radars work. Further RDY is not an LPI Radar, so it is not capable of discreet emissions. 




> *low probability of intercept* (LPI) *radar* that uses *frequency hopping* techniques changes the transmitting *frequency* in time over a wide bandwidth in order to prevent an *intercept* receiver from intercepting the waveform.



Source

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## rockstarIN

BON PLAN said:


> It was far far away it's NEZ. A 5G moving target would have avoid it !



Not 60 km, some were fired from 30km distance.



BON PLAN said:


> LOL.
> You already purchased P8I, helo, next will be drones. More than enough to please Donald the fool.



Our QRSAM based on Astra will be ready for operational deployment after 4-5 years And we urgently need one QR system to fulfill this role. Since US pissed off with S400, this purchase may work both of us good at this point of time. Mostly all other sites will then be protected by QRSAM with mass production just like Akash


----------



## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> thanks Picdelamirandoil



Rafale's agility is largely irrelevant in combat since that agility disappears when hanging external fuel tanks, missiles and bombs on the wing. In other words a combat configured Rafale is 'G' limited except when configured for intercept / a2a combat with one supersonic tank and wingtip / fuselage a2a missiles.

So Rafale's alleged superior agility advantage is only available for one mission type.
This is true for all 4/4.5 Gen fighter less true for aircraft with fuselage mounted stealth weapons pods and CFTs.


----------



## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> Like I said earlier I don't think you understand the concept. Low Probability of Intercept Radars, Radars that are designed to be hard to detect since it avoids triggering RWRs (Radar Warning Receivers) by frequency hopping (i.e. by random change of frequency), narrow beam width etc. So when you say "*RDY radar don't change of frequency*" I conclude that you don't understand how radars work. Further RDY is not an LPI Radar, so it is not capable of discreet emissions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source


Are you sick ?
I never said the RDY emission was not detectable (x2) and I never said it is a LPI radar.
I just said the opponent didn't see any change in the RDY emission that can give him any alert that a missile has been fired. So take your medicine, dring a glass of cold water and keep cool.



rockstarIN said:


> Not 60 km, some were fired from 30km distance.


NEZ of AMRAAM C5 is sait to be 20 to 25km. not more.



dbc said:


> Rafale's agility is largely irrelevant in combat since that agility disappears when hanging external fuel tanks, missiles and bombs on the wing. In other words a combat configured Rafale is 'G' limited except when configured for intercept / a2a combat with one supersonic tank and wingtip / fuselage a2a missiles.
> 
> So Rafale's alleged superior agility advantage is only available for one mission type.
> This is true for all 4/4.5 Gen fighter less true for aircraft with fuselage mounted stealth weapons pods and CFTs.


Not fully true (not to write "false")
Rafale is 9G able with a full AA load and 3 x 1200l external tanks. You may add in a foresable futur 2 conformal external tanks (already tested).

My dear, what is the max G of a fully internally loaded F35? We already know that in a clean config it's 7.5G max.


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> Are you sick ?
> I never said the RDY emission was not detectable (x2) and I never said it is a LPI radar.
> I just said the opponent didn't see any change in the RDY emission that can give him any alert that a missile has been fired. So take your medicine, dring a glass of cold water and keep cool.



Your claim that the RDY emissions are constant even when tracking a fast moving target tells me you haven't a clue how a pulse doppler radar works. 

To launch a missile you first need to:

1. find the target
2. interrogate the target (Friend or Foe) 
3. Track the target
4. Lock the target

To track/lock and sustain the track lock the radar PRFs (Pulse repetition Frequency increases - RWR's are programmed to detect an increase in PRFs. 

It is a simple principle, similar to echolocation used by animals such as bats.
When a bat is using echolocation to navigate around static objects it emits fewer ultrasonic sound waves i.e. lower PRFs. But when chasing a prey it it needs faster updates hence higher PRFs.



BON PLAN said:


> My dear, what is the max G of a fully internally loaded F35? We already know that in a clean config it's 7.5G max.




Which F-35? F-35 A is 9G 

F35B is 7.5 G, a trade off for vertical landing. Can the Rafale land vertically? 

https://www.airforce.gov.au/technology/f-35a-specifications

I thought you were obsessed with the Rafale but now I suspect its the F35.



BON PLAN said:


> You may add in a foresable futur 2 conformal external tanks *(already tested)*.



What are the results of this test? Was it sucessful? Please can you share a source.
Merci

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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> Which F-35? F-35 A is 9G


 LOL. Maybe with block 21..... in 2065



dbc said:


> What are the results of this test? Was it sucessful? Please can you share a source.
> Merci


It was air tested,in 2001 if I remember well. French air force don't need it so far.

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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> LOL. Maybe with block 21..... in 2065



quit trolling please, I told you before..the Rafale will be a minor foot note in history.Unless one crashes on the head of a major celebrity ....like Modi

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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> To track/lock and sustain the track lock the radar PRFs (Pulse repetition Frequency increases - RWR's are programmed to detect an increase in PRFs.


RDY, as RBE2 now don't change PRF.

Maybe it's impossible for US radars, not for french one.



dbc said:


> quit trolling please, I told you before..the Rafale will be a minor foot note in history.Unless one crashes on the head of a major celebrity ....like Modi


F35 tried and succed with a Japan pilot


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> LOL. Maybe with block 21..... in 2065
> 
> 
> It was air tested,in 2001 if I remember well. French air force don't need it so far.
> View attachment 607353
> 
> View attachment 607354



I was hoping to see some data on the results and conclusions of the test. I have seen images of the Rafale with CFTs before.



BON PLAN said:


> RDY, as RBE2 now don't change PRF.
> 
> Maybe it's impossible for US radars, not for french one.
> 
> 
> F35 tried and succed with a Japan pilot



Like I said before French Magical Radars made by Dwarven blacksmiths and don't conform to laws of physics.

Quit trolling many Rafales have crashed killing many pilots - it is not funny.
Including one that crashed in Pakistan waters due to defects in the logic of the fuel flow software.

https://www.dawn.com/news/586935/french-aircraft-crashes-into-pak-waters

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## CONNAN

*@BON PLAN*

*Dassault in talks to buy out Reliance stake in DRAL*

Move comes 2 years ahead of the planned roll out of Falcon 2000 executive jet from JV's Nagpur facility as part of Rafale deal offsets

February 19, 2020 By Vishal Thapar Video / Photo(s): By Dassault Aviation

Dassault's Make in India video released at DefExpo20
The French aircraft manufacturer Dassault is learnt to be in talks to buy out the stake of its partner Reliance in their joint venture Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL).

The Reliance-appointed CEO of DRAL Sampathkumaran ST has reportedly resigned recently. Reliance Infrastructure is the majority shareholder in the 51:49 JV.

This development has taken place two years ahead of the planned roll out of the fully assembled Dassault Falcon 2000 executive jet from the DRAL manufacturing facility at the Mihan SEZ in Nagpur as part of the scaling up of the discharge of offsets in the 7.87 Billion Euro Rafale fighter deal.

The Reliance-appointed CEO of DRAL Sampathkumaran ST has reportedly resigned recently. Reliance Infrastructure is the majority shareholder in the 51:49 JV

"Dassault is seeking a 100 per cent ownership of DRAL, as is permissible under Indian regulations. The French side is already handling all the manufacturing activity at DRAL," an informed source confirmed to this reporter.

Announced shortly after the signing of the Indo-French Government-to-Government deal for 36 Rafale fighters in 2016, the JV was intended to be "a key player in the execution of offset obligations" under the contract. The French side is to discharge 50 per cent offsets - or counter-trade obligations - by sourcing Defence and Aerospace equipment or components worth 3.9 Billion Euros from India.

"Dassault is seeking a 100 per cent ownership of DRAL, as is permissible under Indian regulations. The French side is already handling all the manufacturing activity at DRAL," an informed source confirmed to this reporter

"The Joint Venture also represents a unequalled Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) by Dassault Aviation of over 100 Million Euros, the largest such Defence FDI in one location in India," Dassault had declared in a statement.





The French aircraft manufacturer seeks 100 per cent control of DRAL before rolling out 2 Falcon 2000 jets a month
DRAL commenced manufacture of aero structures for the Falcon 2000 in 2018. "These first steps are expected to achieve in the coming years the possible setting up of final assembly of Rafale and Falcon Aircraft," Dassault had stated.

Sourcing by foreign OEMs of civil aerospace components manufactured in India are permissible for discharge of offsets in defence deals.

DRAL commenced manufacture of aero structures for the Falcon 2000 in 2018. "These first steps are expected to achieve in the coming years the possible setting up of final assembly of Rafale and Falcon Aircraft," Dassault had stated

In February 2019, the first cockpit front section of the Falcon 2000 produced by DRAL was delivered to the assembly line in France as part of the global supply chain for the manufacture of the bestselling executive jet.

"In parallel, larger infrastructures are being developed and will soon be completed allowing the ramp-up of DRAL capabilities toward the taking-off of an entire Falcon 2000 fully manufactured and assembled in India," Dassault had then declared in a statement.

A Falcon 2000 rollout will make this the first private sector assembly line for commercial jets in India.

http://www.sps-aviation.com/news/?i...lt-in-talks-to-buy-out-Reliance-stake-in-DRAL


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## airmarshal

Jaskier said:


> This is so hilariously wrong.
> Meteor has veen developed for taking out highly manuevarable fighter jets at ranges that were never dreamt of.
> Meteors has a NEZ 3 times larger than a AIM 120C5.
> Plus Meteor is also much faster (more KE) and has bettter manuevarability than AMRAAMs.
> 
> As for your claim on EW, RAW has transfered it's ELINT/ESM aircraft Global 5000s to IAF after February 2019 (far more advanced than PAF's DA-20).



Indian commentators were saying the same thing about Su-30. Their taunting and condescending tone was very much in my memory. Not anymore. 

As far as Meteor or any missile. American weaponry has time and again proven to be superior. You should also go for American technology.

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## BON PLAN

airmarshal said:


> As far as Meteor or any missile. American weaponry has time and again proven to be superior. You should also go for American technology.


LOL.
Just remember the brand new AIM9X that failed over Syria to shoot a old Su22...
Or the low pk of AMRAAM.

US AAM are cheaper than european counterparts, but are not as efficient as the US marketing wants it to do.


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> LOL.
> Just remember the brand new AIM9X that failed over Syria to shoot a old Su22...
> Or the low pk of AMRAAM.
> 
> US AAM are cheaper than european counterparts, but are not as efficient as the US marketing wants it to do.



what is the combat record of European AAMs? Why did the MICA fail on Feb 27?


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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> what is the combat record of European AAMs? Why did the MICA fail on Feb 27?


No MICA was fired 27th february.

Remember that the sole F16 shooted down in air to air combat was a Turkish one destroyed by a french Magic 2 fired from a greek Mirage 2000....


----------



## CONNAN

*First four Rafale jets to arrive by May end: Rajnath Singh*

The first four Rafale fighter jets are arriving in India by the last week of May, following which an aircraft will arrive every 45 days, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh disclosed at the Economic Times Global Business Summit, saying that the 36 on order are enough to take care of adversaries as of now. 

Speaking at the annual summit, the minister shared the government’s plans for the defence sector and said that the plan is for the sector to grow to $ 26 billion by 2025, 

Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> No MICA was fired 27th february.



So how many aircraft has the MICA shot down? 
Answer a big 0
Why were no MICA's fired on the 27th of Feb? Two Mirage 2000's were on CAP but they did not engage.
The IAF chief admitted the IAF were at a disadvantage against the AMRAAM so MICA isn't competitive against AMRAAM 

American missiles (AIM's and AMRAAMs) have blown over two dozen Mirages out of the sky and you boast about 1 accidental kill by a French missile - desperate much?

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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> So how many aircraft has the MICA shot down?
> Answer a big 0
> Why were no MICA's fired on the 27th of Feb? Two Mirage 2000's were on CAP but they did not engage.
> The IAF chief admitted the IAF were at a disadvantage against the AMRAAM so MICA isn't competitive against AMRAAM
> 
> American missiles (AIM's and AMRAAMs) have blown over two dozen Mirages out of the sky and you boast about 1 accidental kill by a French missile - desperate much?


No MICA was fired maybe because these M2000 were not equipped? How many M2000 were uptated by the so famous HAL by that time? 2? 3? ....

Some US fighters were shotted down by french missile during the Iran-Irak war, including F5, F4, even F14... another accidental kills ?

Mirage 2000 : 1 / F16 : 0

so have a nice beer, have a sleep and come again when no more brain ill, my sweet small head think tank.

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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> No MICA was fired maybe because these M2000 were not equipped? How many M2000 were uptated by the so famous HAL by that time? 2? 3? ....
> 
> Some US fighters were shotted down by french missile during the Iran-Irak war, including F5, F4, even F14... another accidental kills ?
> 
> Mirage 2000 : 1 / F16 : 0
> 
> so have a nice beer, have a sleep and come again when no more brain ill, my sweet small head think tank.



upgraded Mirages were flying CAP on 27th Feb, no point flying CAP without MICA. The MICA's on upgraded French Mirages were useless on the 27th of Feb.. 

Wait when were US fighters shot down by French AAMs? Source?

You mean US made fighters?

You say Iran-Iraq war, looks like the F-14's clubbed the Iraqi air force like baby seals.
120 reported kills for the Iranian F-14 Tomcats. Iraqi fighters jettison their ordnance and ran away. Exceptional surrender and run away skills -* the Iraqi's were probably French trained! *



> When F-14s were sent up to do battle against the Iraqis, the deployment usually deterred the Iraqis from flying into that area for several weeks. One or two Iranian Tomcats could force a formation of* Iraqi fighters to abort their mission or jettison their ordnance before reaching the target.*



https://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/persian-cats-9242012/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Iranian_aerial_victories_during_the_Iran–Iraq_war

negative rating for resorting to name calling ..good day man ami!

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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> upgraded Mirages were flying CAP on 27th Feb, no point flying CAP without MICA. The MICA's on upgraded French Mirages were useless on the 27th of Feb..


source please? 
As the modernised Mirage are very few in the IAF inventory, I have a big doubt. 
So give me source, or it will be another fake news.



dbc said:


> Wait when were US fighters shot down by French AAMs? Source?


A Turkish F16D was fired by a Mirage 2000 with a Magic 2, during a air to air dog fight, in 1996


----------



## dbc

Turkish F16D is not a US Fighter - it is a US made fighter. The Greek Pilot admitted it was an accident he forgot his weapons were armed and personally apologized to the recovering F-16 GIB Cicekli in a Greek hospital . 2. The Turkish F-16 was not armed - no AAMs *@cabatli_53 *

Shooting down an unarmed aircraft is not really a heroic act that should be commemorated as you seem to be doing. The Greek air force demoted the Mirage pilot to fly transport aircraft after that incident. Why do you think the Turks are pressing the courts to convict the Greek pilot for murder? Its because the F-16 was not armed, Greek and Turkish fighters routinely engaged in mock combat over the Aegean seas before this tragic incident.





BON PLAN said:


> A Turkish F16D was fired by a Mirage 2000 with a Magic 2, during a air to air dog fight, in 1996
> 
> 
> source please?
> As the modernised Mirage are very few in the IAF inventory, I have a big doubt.
> So give me source, or it will be another fake news.



Two sources good enough?

@Windjammer can provide more if still unconvinced.



> *9:54 AM:* Indian Air Force swings into action. IAF's MiG 21 Bisons, Sukhoi Su-30MKIs and *Mirage 2000s* are scrambled to intercept the incoming Pakistani fighter jets.





> The MiG-21 that was shot down on Feb. 27, 2019, was part of a formation of eight Indian fighters which included four Sukhoi 30s, *two upgraded Mirage 2000*s and two MiG-21 Bisons that were dispatched to engage



https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...-dogfight-minute-by-minute-1472548-2019-03-07

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/why-did-india-send-old-mig-21s-take-pakistans-f-16s-46162

Go wave your French flag on an Indian forum - only Indians will believe the nonsense you are peddling.

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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> You say Iran-Iraq war, looks like the F-14's clubbed the Iraqi air force like baby seals.
> 120 reported kills for the Iranian F-14 Tomcats. Iraqi fighters jettison their ordnance and ran away. Exceptional surrender and run away skills


Iraki F1 destroyed F4, F5 and at least one F14.

I know it's hard for a proud unbrained US citizen.



dbc said:


> Turkish F16D is not a US Fighter - it is a US made fighter. The Greek Pilot admitted it was an accident he forgot his weapons were armed and personally apologized to the recovering F-16 GIB Cicekli in a Greek hospital . 2. The Turkish F-16 was not armed - no AAMs *@cabatli_53 *
> 
> Shooting down an unarmed aircraft is not really a heroic act that should be commemorated as you seem to be doing. The Greek air force demoted the Mirage pilot to fly transport aircraft after that incident. Why do you think the Turks are pressing the courts to convict the Greek pilot for murder? Its because the F-16 was not armed, Greek and Turkish fighters routinely engaged in mock combat over the Aegean seas before this tragic incident.


LOL.
An accident..... incredible. He forgot his planned was armed 

Are you so stupid?



dbc said:


> Shooting down an unarmed aircraft is not really a heroic act that should be commemorated as you seem to be doing. The Greek air force demoted the Mirage pilot to fly transport aircraft after that incident. Why do you think the Turks are pressing the courts to convict the Greek pilot for murder? Its because the F-16 was not armed, Greek and Turkish fighters routinely engaged in mock combat over the Aegean seas before this tragic incident.


Turks are pressing the court for a die in a dog fight. OK...
What about a court for the hundreds and hundreds victims of the turkish armenian massacre ?


----------



## ziaulislam

BON PLAN said:


> No MICA was fired maybe because these M2000 were not equipped? How many M2000 were uptated by the so famous HAL by that time? 2? 3? ....
> 
> Some US fighters were shotted down by french missile during the Iran-Irak war, including F5, F4, even F14... another accidental kills ?
> 
> Mirage 2000 : 1 / F16 : 0
> 
> so have a nice beer, have a sleep and come again when no more brain ill, my sweet small head think tank.


Its a common knowledge that MICA is short to medium range missle and is easily outranged by both sd10 & aim120c. For some reason french refused meteor for miragea.
Print.in reported that mirage were having glitches

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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...-dogfight-minute-by-minute-1472548-2019-03-07
> 
> https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/why-did-india-send-old-mig-21s-take-pakistans-f-16s-46162


NO EVIDENCE MIRAGE 2000 WERE CARRYING MICA ! 
NO EVIDENCE ANY MICA WAS FIRED. 

(If a turkish F16, trying to violate the greek airspace, is supposed to be unarmed , why did an Indian M2000, not aware of a **** attack, be fully equipped ?)



ziaulislam said:


> Its a common knowledge that MICA is short to medium range missle and is easily outranged by both sd10 & aim120c. For some reason french refused meteor for miragea.
> Print.in reported that mirage were having glitches


A drone was shooting down by a Taiwanese M2000 in 1997 at a range of 67km.... 

Meteor, as AASM Hammer, is marketingly dedicated to Rafale.


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## ziaulislam

Also i dont understand what indians are talking about meteor..
Not only do chinese have pl-15 in service for a very long time they are even teating PL-XX seen on multiple jets

PL XX is humnongous missle and probably just by looking at its size its range is >300km 
Both are pulse rocket missles..seemingly the new norm which both the americans and chinese are moving towards



BON PLAN said:


> NO EVIDENCE MIRAGE 2000 WERE CARRYING MICA !
> NO EVIDENCE ANY MICA WAS FIRED.
> 
> (If a turkish F16, trying to violate the greek airspace, is supposed to be unarmed , why did an Indian M2000, not aware of a **** attack, be fully equipped ?)
> 
> 
> A drone was shooting down by a Taiwanese M2000 in 1997 at a range of 67km....
> 
> Meteor, as AASM Hammer, is marketingly dedicated to Rafale.


As i said the manufacturer states MICA is short range to medium range missle and is easily out ranges by both sd10&aim120?
What range a fighter hits a target depends upon numeeous kinetic parameters..
E.g was dronw flying towards or away the target..

Who are you or I to change MICA from short to medium range missle to a medium to long range missle..

Manufactuer is thinking to develop MICA NG thought to be a medium range missle

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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> NO EVIDENCE MIRAGE 2000 WERE CARRYING MICA !



So the IAF sent the Mirage 2000 on Combat Air Patrol (CAP) without Air-to-Air missiles?
So what was the plan? The IAF Mirage 2000 - takes off, climbs to 20,000 ft and performs the famous French surrender maneuver?

It's like the Pugachev Cobra but you press the surrender button (standard on all French aircraft) at the apex to unfurl a white flag.

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## BON PLAN

ziaulislam said:


> Manufactuer is thinking to develop MICA NG thought to be a medium range missle


The main goal of MICA NG is less the range than the speed and the NEZ.

For longer range we already have Meteor.



dbc said:


>


Strange, you forgot the 1914 history.


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## Ali_Baba

BON PLAN said:


> The main goal of MICA NG is less the range than the speed and the NEZ.
> 
> For longer range we already have Meteor.
> 
> 
> Strange, you forgot the 1914 history.



Did France win the 1914 one??


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## BON PLAN

Ali_Baba said:


> Did France win the 1914 one??


YES, We won, with GB.
And the main burden was taken by france, then GB.
All the north of France, the industrialized part, was nearly destroyed. The fights never touched GB or Deutchland, only France and Belgium.
The level of destructions and deceases were so high that the french people enter in the WW2 without the correct fighting spirit. It was a deep but understanding error.

NB : the US help during WW1 was with few effects (they arrived late, and too few). It was totally different in WW2. But in WW2 the main burden was taken by Russia.


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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> So how many aircraft has the MICA shot down?
> Answer a big 0
> Why were no MICA's fired on the 27th of Feb? Two Mirage 2000's were on CAP but they did not engage.
> The IAF chief admitted the IAF were at a disadvantage against the AMRAAM so MICA isn't competitive against AMRAAM
> 
> American missiles (AIM's and AMRAAMs) have blown over two dozen Mirages out of the sky and you boast about 1 accidental kill by a French missile - desperate much?


"None of the IAF MKIs and M-2000s were allowed to break RoE. Only Abhinandan broke it because his situation was unique enough that allowed him to break it, without permission"

https://www.******************/foru...-air-force-news-and-discussions.3/post-127199


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## BON PLAN

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1240938746863734784
Indian Rafale production halted.

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## MirageBlue

The first IAF Rafale single seater, BS003












image credit in the pics

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## BON PLAN



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## BON PLAN



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## Constantin84

@BON PLAN I have a noob question....Is the F3R just a software upgrade or it needs general restructure of the air frame?

How much will it cost France to upgrade all its 144 F3's to F3r standard and how long ?

Obviously, if anyone else in here has answers to these questions, pls don't hesitate. 
Thank you


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## BON PLAN

Constantin84 said:


> @BON PLAN I have a noob question....Is the F3R just a software upgrade or it needs general restructure of the air frame?
> 
> How much will it cost France to upgrade all its 144 F3's to F3r standard and how long ?
> 
> Obviously, if anyone else in here has answers to these questions, pls don't hesitate.
> Thank you


Hi !
F3R is mainly a software update, with some new loads cleared (Talios pod, but eased by the fact that it use the same frame than previous Damocles pod, Meteor... )

It's only with the F4 standart that the older Rafale will be limited to F4.1, because it needs new hardware, when the newer one will be cleared to F4.2. All the export models are "newer" ones, except may be the Egypt ones.

F3R costs 800€ millions to french army.
F4 will cost 2 € billions. F4 is a more ambitious evolution than F3R, with sat link, a more evolved "private" data link than L16, new IFF, more radar modes, new optronic suite, maybe a new AESA antenna, wider band Spectra, new and cheaper AASM "Hammer", MICA NG, sustain of M88.... and some RCS refinements.

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## BON PLAN

Good news for Indians, and not really for some others....

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2...Flights_for_Indian_Rafale_Pilots#.Xp2ozsgzbct

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## BON PLAN

For those who think Rafale can't fly with 4 Meteor....

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## Ali_Baba

BON PLAN said:


> For those who think Rafale can't fly with 4 Meteor....



But still a lot less than the Typhoon can !!!!


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## BON PLAN

Ali_Baba said:


> But still a lot less than the Typhoon can !!!!


The point 3 under the wings remain free. It is possible to add MICA or Meteor there.
And the option to use a pylon with 2 missiles, like the US, remains a solution.

But is it usefull? Since 1980, I'm quite sure that no fighter fired more than 2 AA missiles in a single mission. May be I'm wrong, and I will be interested in your answers, all.


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## MirageBlue

Ali_Baba said:


> But still a lot less than the Typhoon can !!!!



4 Meteor missiles is more than adequate, given the range and the NEZ that the Meteor has. 2 Rafale fighters with 8 Meteor missiles plus 4 MICA-IR missiles would be deadly on CAP, OCA or even DCA missions.


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## Armchair

@BON PLAN is a hilarious person who claims Indian M-2Ks on CAP, that too after IAF bombing of Pak territory, were not armed with a2a missiles. There has to be a ban for people who are too patriotic. Ruins the level of the forum.


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## BON PLAN

Armchair said:


> @BON PLAN is a hilarious person who claims Indian M-2Ks on CAP, that too *after* IAF bombing of Pak territory, *were not armed with a2a missiles*. There has to be a ban for people who are too patriotic. Ruins the level of the forum.


@Armchair is writing fake news.
I have never write that.
I just say that it is possible that these M2000, JUST BEFORE or DURING the pak attack, may be not equipped with AtoA missiles.
Why? because AtoA missile have a quite short life under wings, so you have to preserve it in peace time.

I never wrote "AFTER IAF Bombing".

It is a pure fake news. You are reported for that.


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## BON PLAN

*some details about F4 standart*

Since the entry date is anticipated by one year.








*Rafale and GaN technology*

Thales and the DGA are actively preparing the future radar developments that will be introduced on Standard F4.2, incorporating cutting-edge Gallium Nitride (GaN) technology for the radar and jammer antennas. Thanks to additional radar apertures, detection capabilities will be unmatched and electronic attack capabilities will become a reality. The programme director explained: “Even though we are entirely satisfied with the current RBE2 AESA radar, we are already working on the next generation scheduled to appear on new-build aircraft in 2025. “For the same volume, GaN technology will offer an expanded bandwidth, more radiated power and an even easier ability to switch from one mode to another, or from one functionality to another. With the same antenna, we will be capable of generating combined, interleaved radar, jamming and electronic warfare modes as part of an electronic attack mission. “GaN emitters will not be restricted to the radar and they will also equip the Spectra suite.

For example, for the antennas in the wing apexes, ahead of the canard foreplanes, we could obtain a very quick emission/reception cycle, either saving some volume or augmenting radiated power. On Tranche 5 Rafales, we will have at our disposal twice the amount of transmitted power for the radar and jamming antennas. Thales has already produced and tested in laboratories a series of GaN module prototypes for the new radar and initial testing results look extremely promising. “Following the entry into service of the AESA in 2013, the deliveries of the Meteor in 2018 will push the Rafale into a class of its own – we will be the only ones in the world operating a fighter equipped with an AESA and a ramjet-propelled missile – but we have to keep investing to maintain our leadership.

This is the reason why this GaN technological path is so important, especially for the development of additional emitting panels and apertures that will offer extended radar angular coverage. “It is not just an improvement; it is a real technological breakthrough in the field of detection. Jamming modes will not be left untouched and will push the Rafale’s electronic warfare capabilities to unprecedented levels thanks to the introduction of what we call ‘smart jamming’, with a wider band coverage and GaN emitters from 2025. These capabilities will be further expanded thanks to the adoption of MFAs [Multi-Function Arrays].” The Rafale’s Front Sector Optronics (FSO) will be fitted with a new-generation infrared search and track (IRST) sensor optimised for the tracking of air targets, either alone, or in conjunction with the RBE2 radar.


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## MirageBlue

BON PLAN said:


> @Armchair is writing fake news.
> I have never write that.
> I just say that it is possible that these M2000, JUST BEFORE or DURING the pak attack, may be not equipped with AtoA missiles.
> Why? because AtoA missile have a quite short life under wings, so you have to preserve it in peace time.
> 
> I never wrote "AFTER IAF Bombing".
> 
> It is a pure fake news. You are reported for that.



Mirage-2000Is that escorted the Mirage-2000H fighters that were carrying Spice-2000 and Crystal Maze missiles were armed with 6 MICA missiles each. 

And obviously they were expecting something to happen in the days following Feb 26th, so all fighters on CAP were armed with live missiles.


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## BON PLAN

MirageBlue said:


> Mirage-2000Is that escorted the Mirage-2000H fighters that were carrying Spice-2000 and Crystal Maze missiles were armed with 6 MICA missiles each.
> 
> And obviously they were expecting something to happen in the days following Feb 26th, so all fighters on CAP were armed with live missiles.


We were not speaking of these M2000, but those on the air when the Pak made their attack.


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## BON PLAN



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## Lord Of Gondor



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## FuturePAF

Testing and training upon the Rafale’s EW capabilities maybe available in the simulator.

Considering Qatar has access to this, it maybe an easier way to assess the capabilities of the Rafale’s SPECTRA EW suite and counter it, if they are able to share access to this with the PAF.

From 10:58-12:58

“It is obviously important to maximize the learning. Rafale is Capable of a lot of missions. In some fields, for example in some kind of tricky fields, I would mention EW or some very large force employment mission, It is necessary to take benefit from the new thoughts, the new missions that we are to plan for train. The live version of constructive training missions are something which Rafale was thought to be able to take part into from the very beginning...”






https://www.collinsaerospace.com/wh...irtual-constructive-blended-test-and-training

This maybe the simulator the French use to train upon the Rafale:

https://www.rockwellcollins.com/Dat...s-next-generation-Griffin2-visual-system.aspx


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## BON PLAN

FuturePAF said:


> Testing and training upon the Rafale’s EW capabilities maybe available in the simulator.
> 
> Considering Qatar has access to this, it maybe an easier way to assess the capabilities of the Rafale’s SPECTRA EW suite and counter it, if they are able to share access to this with the PAF.
> 
> From 10:58-12:58
> 
> “It is obviously important to maximize the learning. Rafale is Capable of a lot of missions. In some fields, for example in some kind of tricky fields, I would mention EW or some very large force employment mission, It is necessary to take benefit from the new thoughts, the new missions that we are to plan for train. The live version of constructive training missions are something which Rafale was thought to be able to take part into from the very beginning...”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.collinsaerospace.com/wh...irtual-constructive-blended-test-and-training
> 
> This maybe the simulator the French use to train upon the Rafale:
> 
> https://www.rockwellcollins.com/Dat...s-next-generation-Griffin2-visual-system.aspx


Each country has the ability to change some encryption keys of the Radar, the datalinks (with missiles), the Spectra System.
Don't worry about that.


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## BON PLAN

Just for fun....

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## FuturePAF

BON PLAN said:


> Each country has the ability to change some encryption keys of the Radar, the datalinks (with missiles), the Spectra System.
> Don't worry about that.



Not worried, just better to know as much about your enemy's systems as possible, and then try to gather the country specifics through other means. It may also help in developing tactics to counter Spectra and refine our own systems to match or exceed the capabilities of Spectra.


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## BON PLAN

https://hushkit.net/2019/11/11/flyi...afale-interview-with-a-rafale-combat-veteran/

From the perilous deck of an aircraft carrier, Pierre-Henri ‘_Até’_ Chuet took the Dassault Rafale M into combat in Iraq. We spoke to him to find out more about the Rafale, a remarkable fighting machine, a masterpiece of design and a strong contender for the title of best combat aircraft ‘all-rounder’.

First Impressions of Rafale?
‘_It’s a space shuttle!_’ was my first impression. It is very agile, very responsive* when you’re light and very very manoeuvrable… you can easily bump your head, I bumped my head twice on the first flight! Flight controls are very different as you can barely move the stick, it’s just centimetres compared to the former flight control system of the Super Étendard, so it took me couple of hours to get used to that. That’s the big difference. A lot of fun on that. First impression was the thrust, speed, comfort – the fact the aircraft was really sanitised for sound so you have no clue what speed you’re flying at — you really have to look at the instruments. And extremely responsive.”

(*_Até actually used the English word ‘nervous’, not responsive, throughout his descriptions of Rafale. In French, the word ‘nerveux’ is often used to describe a twitchy, responsive car that is quick to accelerate, I have replaced nervous with ‘responsive’)_

Best thing
“Best thing about it. It is very very responsive, very good situational awareness if you know how to manage all the screens and everything. A lot of capabilities. the omni-role stuff is very impressive it can really switch extremely fast from air-to-ground to the air-to-air mission.”

And the worst thing?
“The worst thing would be the noise. Pretty noisy aircraft. Like most of them, the ECS (environmental control system) is pretty noisy. Not the engines really, it’s the ECS.”

How you rate the Rafale M in the following categories?
Instantaneous turn/High alpha/Sustained turn
“It’s good, it’s very good. you have two types of ‘flying the aircraft’: you have the air-to air mode where you pull +9 Gs up to 11.Then you have with bombs and full tanks, when your performance is not as good: about +5g and about 200 degree roll rate less – so it’s two different aircraft. When you’re in air-to-air all this stuff is pretty good. Instantaneous turn and sustained turn pretty good. So it’s two different aircraft – when it’s in air-to-air mode it’s very good. It depends what you make of it – I’ve never had any issues.”

Sustained turn
“Sustained turn is good.”

High alpha
“Less than a Hornet, but still good. High alpha could be better, but it’s really what you make out of it — I’ve never had any issue.”

Acceleration & Climb rate
“The acceleration is insane! Climb rate is firm – to give you an idea: if we’re at 500 knots & 500 feet… put the afterburner on — wait for the afterburner to kick in — then put the nose up at 60 degrees so you’re feeling like you’re vertical because of the angle of the seat (that’s 30 degrees) and at some point you have to throttle back in the afterburner to make sure it doesn’t go supersonic…in the climb 60 degree nose up! So that’s for the climb rate.”

As a carrier aircraft?
“And as a carrier aircraft it’s a good jet. Very versatile. Very robust. Really no issue on the carrier side. Fuel is efficient. You have enough fuel and it’s pretty fuel efficient. You’re burning less fuel in afterburner at high altitudes than Typhoon does without the afterburner.”

What was your most memorable mission?
“The best ones are air shows. Air shows are insane. Yeovilton air show was a blast. But combat mission wise, I had a mission back in 2016. I was leader to two Rafale in Northern Iraq. I was fitted with GBU-12. He was fitted with SBU-38 (Hammer) . My laser designation pod wasn’t working. My wingman’s one wasn’t working. And with ten minutes left of flying time basically on station and then hitting the refueller and transit back to the aircraft carrier that was in the Gulf. We were then instructed to go East, as US Marine Special Forces from a recon got ambushed and were getting shot at by a few snipers. So about 80 miles of transit and we had to redo everything.

And my wingman and I had already dropped some bombs on enemy guys. And we had to redo everything: negotiate a new tanker; advise the carrier we’ll be late; come up with a game-plan. Pretty rushed and then on arrive on scene. It was quite difficult to spot the first group of snipers. They had ‘IR shields’ and stuff like that so we found them with the help of the SF on the ground using small UAVs and compare my footage with this SF UAV footage. I got rid of those two guys.

They told me I had to drop on a third guy to the south. And I was completely ‘bingo’ on fuel…don’t tell anyone! The tanker was coming, so basically I decided to take my chances I couldn’t find a guy and my laser pod wasn’t very good that day. So I just went, ‘_OK one or two metres_‘, knowing there were virtually no civilians as it was in the desert, so I took my chance and it ended with me being at three metres to be efficient. But that was pretty memorable as sometimes you just have to take actions. And I guess it was a lucky bet…I’m not saying it’s a good thing to bet…it wasn’t that much of a bet as I had so much information and I actually had a very precise view on the enemy guys. So that as a pretty memorable mission. It went very well, the result was great. Everyone was happy. It took me out of my comfort zone and at that point it was one of the longest missions from the boat.”

Which aircraft have you flown DACT against?
“Against F-16, against Typhoon, against Super Hornets. Against Harrier. Against Alpha Jet. Against Mirage 2000.”

…which was the most challenging?
“The F-16 is pretty cool. Typhoon is a joke, very easy to shoot. F-16 actually was a good surprise actually, I found it to be a pretty good aircraft. I think the most challenging was the F-16, it’s a pretty small jet so it’s easy to lose sight of it. So I think that was the big one. The Harrier can really turn around pretty fast, so you have to play it very close so you have to be careful with that. And with the Alpha Jet don’t go into a slow fight with it. It can manoeuvre and do some rolls at pretty low speed, some barrel rolls at pretty low speeds so you really want to pay attention. You can easily be tricked at low speed by an Alpha Jet. So you want to keep your energy high.”

How good are the sensors?
“Sensors — we haves some pretty good sensors. The laser tracking device is being replaced now. It was ‘_old skool_‘ and not as good as it could have been. There’re doing a better job with the new one I’ve heard. Otherwise the other sensors are extremely good. The radar —— with the new one — is insanely great. The electronic warfare stuff is great as well. So it’s pretty good sensors. We have radar, we have electronic sensors, we have laser. We have basically, all the stuff. We have the small camera on the aircraft, it’s pretty good at day. You can use it air-ground or air-to-air – it’s a pretty good tool to have.”

How easy is to fly? What is the hardest thing about flying it?
“It’s an aircraft that’s easy to fly. It’s designed to be an easy aircraft to fly but one thing is you have a lack of feedback, you have no clue if you’re flying at 200 knots or mach 1.5. Same noise, same altitude, everything. It’s a big big trick and big concern in this generation of aircraft is feedback is poor, so deal with it. Be careful about time slipping by, be very very careful about your environment as you can be easily trapped we’ve had lots of close calls with young pilots getting trapped. Be very very careful about time slipping by or acceleration kicking in so you really want to be careful about that. So the lack of feedback is a difficult thing about the aircraft.”

What are the differences between the C and the M? Are there performance differences?
“C and M difference is about 650 kg, we have a bigger landing gear, bigger structure, a small hydraulic pump, we have access to the flight-deck that’s integrated in the aircraft – and we have _much_ better pilots of course. In terms of performance, because you have a 650-kg difference, the nose is going to feel heavier in a Rafale M. Rafale C might be able to endure better in air-to-air combat because it’s lighter. But it’s no major difference – no concern.”

How would you rate the cockpit? Do you like the head-level display?
“The cockpit is great. Very very immersive. Everything is well designed – maybe the position of the safety horizon at 30 / 30 degrees to the right and down isn’t optimum, but you prioritise other instruments. It’s not something you have to use very often in real life — like I never had to use it. I never had to use it in SE, never had any screen issues. So it’s a very reliable aircraft. The HUD is awesome – it’s pretty big. We’d all like to have head-up displays in our helmets, but that’s life – we don’t have it right now. But it should be in the pipeline for the future.”

The cockpit seems very snug, are there large Rafale pilots?
“We do have larger Rafale pilots! But trust me, when you come from the Super Étendard you find the cockpit to be large! So really, no concern about that.”

Have you fired live weapons- if so, what was it like?
“Yes. Dropped bombs, shot missiles — it’s pretty cool. The aircraft is a very stable platform. I’ve shot with the gun too. The firing system is well done. It’s a bit stressful because you don’t want to *censored* up when you’re dealing with real ordnance. You really don’t want to *censored* up. From a general point of view every time you step into an aircraft you really have to be careful – so just keeping up the mindset and dealing with the pressure. Making sure you are prepared.”

Against a Super Hornet?
“Honestly the issue is comparing aircraft all the time. Life isn’t that easy. Combat is unfair. It’s never going to be fair. It isn’t designed to be fair. If you get into fair close combat you’re a bad pilot. Don’t put yourself in a fair fight in real life as that’s stupid. Manoeuvre — take advantage and surprise your enemy. It’s not about one individual defeating an enemy, you’re here to get results. We are result-driven personnel. It’s not all about me. You’ve got thousands of people building a Rafale, and building and maintaining carrier. There’s thousands of people making sure I can take-off -— if I want to go fair-against-fair, I’m stupid. What I want to is make sure I win. Why do I say that? If I’m going to fight against a Super Hornet, I’m going to find a tricky way to defeat him. Look at the Messerschmitt 262 back in World War Two, most of them got shot down on landing. An aircraft shot down still makes the count. If we have to face the US Navy, it’s going to be disproportionate in terms of numbers – it’s going bring entire tactics to another level. Now, you want me to do a fair 1-v-1 fight with a Hornet in close combat, actually I’d rather a Super Hornet; I find the C to be more manoeuvrable than the Super Hornet. As a Rafale we can take an advantage on a Hornet again. What I would be careful of is their AIM-9X and helmet visors. So I would be very careful about that.”

The Rafale and Typhoon are often compared, how confident would you be fighting against a Typhoon? And why?
“I don’t know why they’re compared so often – it’s really not the same design, ideas or philosophy. We’re a truly omnirole platform. Typhoons are great, they like to use their big engines at 40,000 feet. I can’t count how many times I’ve shot down Typhoons at 45,000 feet in the contrails. And my radar off, everything off, I was coming from 100 feet below, supersonic in the climb from below. Absolutely undetected. So I have absolutely no fear of the Typhoons. Both the tactics used by the Typhoons, the agility and the cockpit of the aircraft make it easier for us to take the advantage — basically we have better fusion of the sensors — so we can be way more aggressive in terms of tactics. It’s a great aircraft at high level, but we’re not dumb enough to try to fight Typhoons at 50,000 feet or 45,000 feet. We’re going to put them outside their comfort zone. Against devious tactics. Now if you want to rate a Typhoon with AMRAAMs against a Rafale at 50,000 ft, then, yeah, Typhoon is going to have better performances for sure. But as a Rafale pilot, I’m stupid if I take him on like that, so I’m going to move the combat a bit. I’ll fake a combat at 50,000 feet and I’m going to send a guy sneakily low level to surprise the Typhoon, it’s more easy than you think!”

Biggest myth?
“It is an aircraft that didn’t sell. It was truly finished before 2014 anyway in terms of omnirole. Once the aircraft was fully operational it sold right away. It’s not a bad aircraft, but it just took a while to develop, a lot of strategic reasons behind that, and now it’s developed it’s an awesome jet.”

How combat effective is it?
“It is really combat effective. You can switch to one mission from another.”

It is easy to maintain?
“I’m not a maintainer, but It looks easier to maintain than Super E and we have less emergencies than earlier generations.”

Something I don’t know about Rafale?
“I don’t know what you know! Oooh…ECS is loud as *censored*! You lose the ECS and you think you have a two engine fire! It happened to me once.”

Tips for new Rafale pilots?
“Keep it simple and stupid. Back to basics. Fly the aircraft first and don’t get tricked into trying all the buttons and the screens. Make sure you fly the aircraft. It isn’t giving you any feedback so you’re your own worst enemy in the cockpit — so make sure you don’t *censored* up. It’s going to accelerate very fast. Scan your instruments and make sure you keep that airspeed under control.”

How would you rate the Rafale’s ability to land back on deck with a heavy load of unused munitions and fuel? “It’s much less of an issue than it was maybe for the Super E, you have a better and more reactive engine so honestly when you come back heavy there is not a big difference for the pilot.

Hardest manoeuvre to pull off?
“Downward combat spiral from, maybe 45,000 feet to 5,000 feet, you are extremely close to your enemy — and it takes practice. You are metres away and spirally down together. Slow airspeed. And you’re just spirally down together at an extremely close distant, you are so close you can basically see what is on the other guy’s knees! And then spiralling further down – and first time you have to do that single-seat it’s quite an experience. You cannot do that in a Super E because you’re using the delta to sit the aircraft at a high AoA.”

Personal opinion: what should the Indian Aircraft Force procure?
“Pass. I’m not an expert. Recent experiences show, they could do with a couple of Rafale, maybe with full French stuff or maybe working with a mix of a different type of technology is good. French is good because there’s not as many limits as the US (like trade restrictions) and there’s some pretty nice stuff. I think the Indians are getting a really nice advanced version of Rafale. They should just get more.”

What should I have asked you?
“What was the biggest shock on Rafale? When you reduce the power. Go idle power power, airbrakes out at a low level — it’s impressive how fast it decelerates. It’s just insane. It’s actually almost more astonishing than the acceleration. When you cut the engine, go to idle power and put the ‘boards’ out – it’s impressive. On the other side, above mach 0.69 on the afterburner at low levels at air shows you’re just holding on to the stick and it’s a pretty unique sensation.”

What did you feel on your first deck launch and recovery?
“First deck launch is fun, you don’t have to do much. First recovery you’re stressed, you’re getting graded… there’s a lot of pressure and you’re just relieved.”

Navy or air force pilots…and why?
“Not sure I even have to answer that question. People will know anyway. Jokes aside, if the air force could land on a boat they would be doing it. We’re truly omni-role, we don’t have a choice. And also we have a more diverse type of flying. I was flying airshows and then I deployed like two weeks after switching from airshows to combat mission in a very short amount of time develops unique sets of adaptability. And most important a respect of timing – In Navy we try to go plus or minus two second s when we land. Lots of reasons behind it, but a small aircraft carrier gives you lost of constraints. so we’re really into precision and we’re more disciplined than the air force guys. I’ve got nothing against air force pilots, my dad was air force fighter pilot — they’re good guys. It’s just a bit different- our environment is so much more complex — so we have that increased discipline that really makes a difference.”

What equipment would you like to see integrated on the Rafale?
“A remote jammer that you can carry behind you — I think the Indians are going to get it — that’s something I’d like to see- like a towed decoy. It’s great. I think it would be good to communicate with the onboard systems, you can trick the missiles. And you can be more aggressive in terms of tactics if know the first missile is not going to hit you but is going to destroy your towed decoy.”

How would you rate the MICA?
“Is great… I like the singer. Jokes aside. MICA is a good missile. What really surprises people is its IR/EM capability – you can really switch. Overall it’s a good missile. I can’t complain but I haven’t used it in combat yet — a good training missile. Good stuff. I think it’s going to be good with the Meteor as well. Not unhappy with my missiles, but never used it in combat.”

How good is the high altitude performance?
“High altitude performance is great. It can take a couple of Gs even at 50,000 ft – you have two engines – and you can tell.”

Has the Rafale sufficient engine power, would you like more?
“You never have enough power. You find a guy who tells you he has too much power- he’s a liar – or he’s not manoeuvring his aircraft hard enough. The aircraft is overpowered in air show conditions — you know when you’re flying with all the bombs and stuff it’s not the same aircraft at all. Air-to-air it’s a good jet, but we could always always use more power – but then that means using more fuel maybe. I’ll go with a nine ton version – right now its 7.5 tons per engine – I’d go with a 9 ton version any day. That’s just how we are – we want extra power all the time.”

Do you feel confident flying against modern air defences in a non-stealthy aircraft?
“Great question. I’m not sure an aircraft’s stealthiness is going to make much difference anyway against very modern stuff. We’re not afraid of low level penetrations in the french air force. So come and get me with your S-400 if I’m at 200 feet above the ground — that’s not going to happen anytime soon so. I’m not afraid. It’s something we’re trained in and so it’s part of the job. And if you want a lot munitions or stores you’re going to lose on your stealthy signature anyway. So it’s not something of much concern – that’s why we train to keep current at very low level penetration. Which is really good as we get to fly at low level – which is awesome. I can’t complain.”

Rafale is described by many as the most beautiful fighter in production – how do you rate the aesthetics of Rafale?
I like it, I must confess I find the Mirage 2000 very good looking as well… and slimmer and maybe faster looking — and it is faster than the Rafale. Rafale is slower than the Mirage 2000. We’re talking Mach 1.8 against 2.2. But I like the design of Rafale aircraft a lot. I think it’s a good-looking aircraft, but then again, it’s like asking a dad if he thinks his kids are good-looking or not! So we’re biased anyway. But compared to Typhoon you can tell it’s a good-looking aircraft. I like the Hornet’s shape, I think that’s a good-looking aircraft too. And the F-22 is one of my favourite looking aircraft! The F-35? I really don’t like the design, I think it’s a shitty looking aircraft to be honest…but don’t quote me on that!”

How confident would you feel fighting a F-22 in WVR DACT?
“Obviously you have seen videos _(see above_). Is it going to be guns only? Is it going to be Sidewinders? If it’s gun only I don’t have any issue – if it’s Sidewinders — and he has his helmet-mounted stuff* and 9X then I’m going to be careful — I would be concerned. I definitely don’t have no concerns otherwise: it would be tougher for me because he has his 9X and mounted vizor. If I play my cards correctly there’s no reason why it shouldn’t be OK. I have questions, like what is the set-up? Is it going to be ‘Butterfly’ with one close to the other one? It really depends on these situation. But guns only? Honestly, no concern. And it’s a big aircraft so it’s easy to shoot at.”

*Editor note: as far as I know Raptors have not been fitted with HMS.

When did the French Navy procure the Rafale M and where were you trained?
“We got it in 2000/2001 as a replacement for the F-8 Crusader. I got trained back in 2014. I got my ground training with the French air force and I was fully trained. We all had different trainings possible and I went the full solo direct. I never flew with the air force. I only flew single seat Rafale M directly. So ground school with the air force and back to Landivisiau. Taxi the aircraft up to 200<100?> knots, abort the take-off. Then next mission you take off and you fly on your own, you break through the sound barrier and all that stuff. I did all my training on a single-seat Rafale never flew a two-seater.”



FuturePAF said:


> Not worried, just better to know as much about your enemy's systems as possible, and then try to gather the country specifics through other means. It may also help in developing tactics to counter Spectra and refine our own systems to match or exceed the capabilities of Spectra.


The same can be said about F16. France is a close ally of UAE, Belgium, Taiwan.... No doubt we have some very good info about all F16 models.

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## BON PLAN

And the winner is....

RAFALE !!!

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## MirageBlue

IAF Rafale twin seater RB004












IAF Rafale single seater BS004











Image credit- Maciej Swiderski

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## The Maverick

One heck of a good looking Plane.

Way too expensive IMO but awesome capability 

The IAF really need 36 more Fighters to make it 4 sqds


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## MirageBlue

The Maverick said:


> One heck of a good looking Plane.
> 
> Way too expensive IMO but awesome capability
> 
> The IAF really need 36 more Fighters to make it 4 sqds



Yes, one of the most beautiful fighters ever designed and put into production.

Given that the IAF continues to insist that the 114 MRCA competition will continue even when there is a likely defence budget cut in the next 2 years, I expect them to keep going through all the formalities of the process (RFI, RFP, etc.) but it is very unlikely that they'll get that contract signature anytime. 

The best option is 36 to 48 more Rafale fighters for 2-3 more squadrons and then they can dump the MRCA altogether. 

72 to 84 Rafale fighters is sufficient for the IAF. The MWF can get additional orders instead or if the IAF wants, they could fund the ORCA, since the Navy is going to fund the twin engine TEDBF fighter.


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## The Maverick

> The best option is 36 to 48 more Rafale fighters for 2-3 more squadrons and then they can dump the MRCA altogether.
> 
> 72 to 84 Rafale fighters is sufficient for the IAF. The MWF can get additional orders instead or if the IAF wants, they could fund the ORCA, since the Navy is going to fund the twin engine TEDBF fighter.



IMO 

They will take until 2030 to finish inducting all 123 Tejas mk1/1a 
It will take until 2030 to get FOC on mark 2 imo even though I know they are only building 5 prototypes and going to cut corners to get mark 2 in service asap.

This means post 2025 I see another order for rafale but it could be on 18 to 36 fighters to arrive by 2028-2029. 

I also see IAF going straight to AMCA post 2030 foc in 2040 not before

PS IMO IAF will never get anywhere near 42 squadrons they will remain at 30-32 from now on . The money is not there


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## MirageBlue

The Maverick said:


> IMO
> 
> They will take until 2030 to finish inducting all 123 Tejas mk1/1a
> It will take until 2030 to get FOC on mark 2 imo even though I know they are only building 5 prototypes and going to cut corners to get mark 2 in service asap.
> 
> This means post 2025 I see another order for rafale but it could be on 18 to 36 fighters to arrive by 2028-2029.
> 
> I also see IAF going straight to AMCA post 2030 foc in 2040 not before
> 
> PS IMO IAF will never get anywhere near 42 squadrons they will remain at 30-32 from now on . The money is not there



Yes, and Gen Bipin Rawat had hinted at the possibility of 36 more Rafales 4 years after the first 36 were in service. the IAF has established infrastructure to easily support 72 Rafales. So as long as the money is available, 36 more are the likeliest option for imports.

Beyond that, I don't see the possibility of any imports being a real option given the huge hit the economy is taking and the time it'll take to fully recover. A $20 billion deal for 114 Rafales is simply out of the question. 

And yes, the MWF should be ready at IOC level by 2030. Entry into service can be started then, just as it was for the Tejas Mk1.


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## Zapper




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## airomerix

Beautiful aircraft. 

Congratulations to my Indian counterparts. Will see you folks in the battle grounds.

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## The Maverick

Wow rafale in Indian colours 
My Lord what a sight 

We need to order more I want to see at least 36 more ideally 54 more to give us 5 squadrons


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## MirageBlue

airomerix said:


> Beautiful aircraft.
> 
> Congratulations to my Indian counterparts. Will see you folks in the battle grounds.



Yes indeed, one of the most beautiful fighter planes ever designed. A real work of art. 

I didn't get the "will see you folks in the battle grounds" bit.


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## Nomad40

I saw we go on a little hunting trip with our trusty old Rifle.

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## BON PLAN

The Maverick said:


> This means post 2025 I see another order for rafale but it could be on 18 to 36 fighters to arrive by 2028-2029.


18 is far too few.
IAF will never forget the Mirage 2000 lesson : too small fleet of a versatile and usefull plane. Rafale is even better, with more versatility and more disponibility.

The next order will be for 36 min, and a follow on of 18 to 36.
So as to have 2 sqd in front of Pakistan, and 2 to 3 in font of China.
It's my opinion since 2016.

Add some for navy ?



Ali_Baba said:


> I agree. Please DO NOT CRASH them. It will deny the PAF the opportunity and glory of shooting these f*ckers down !!!!!!!


In your wet dreams.

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## Ali_Baba

BON PLAN said:


> The next order will be for 36 min, and a follow on of 18 to 36.
> So as to have 2 sqd in front of Pakistan, and 2 to 3 in font of China.
> It's my opinion since 2016.
> 
> Add some for navy ?
> 
> 
> In your wet dreams.



You hope .. in YOUR wet dreams !!!

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## Lord Of Gondor

BON PLAN said:


> The next order will be for 36 min, and a follow on of 18 to 36.
> So as to have 2 sqd in front of Pakistan, and 2 to 3 in font of China.
> It's my opinion since 2016.


Makes imminent sense, both Ambala and Kalaikunda can house 2 Sqn each.
Fingers crossed for the 114 Jet deal.


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## BON PLAN

Ali_Baba said:


> You hope .. in YOUR wet dreams !!!


INDEED !


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## MirageBlue

Ali_Baba said:


> I agree. Please DO NOT CRASH them. It will deny the PAF the opportunity and glory of shooting these f*ckers down !!!!!!!



Only in your dreams. With Meteor missiles on board, it is the F-16s and JF-17s that'll need to save their asses.

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## ziaulislam

MirageBlue said:


> Only in your dreams. With Meteor missiles on board, it is the F-16s and JF-17s that'll need to save their asses.


Not if f16c get aim120c-9 or aim120d
Or if jf17 gets the PL 15(if not already)

Still 75 f16s out ranges anything india has..and had been for last 10 years.


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## MirageBlue

ziaulislam said:


> Not if f16c get aim120c-9 or aim120d
> Or if jf17 gets the PL 15(if not already)
> 
> Still 75 f16s out ranges anything india has..and had been for last 10 years.



Neither the AIM-120C7 (there is no C9 variant) nor the AIM-120D have the range of the Meteor. 

the AIM-120D (or C8 as it was formerly called) is basically a development of the AIM-120C with a two-way data link, more accurate navigation using a GPS-enhanced IMU, an expanded no-escape envelope, and improved HOBS (high off-boresight) capability.

It doesn't have additional range. 

PL-15 is a somewhat unknown entity. It could pose a big threat or maybe not, we just don't know. Fanboy stuff is not equal to authentic data, which we get for Meteor, AMRAAM, etc. Still, the PL-15 hasn't been integrated with the JF-17, although it might well be eventually. In the JF-17's case, the Block 3's AESA radar will be a must to be able to use the claimed 150 km range of the PL-15. Neither Block 1 nor 2 will be able to use the PL-15 to it's full range anyway since the radar won't be able to detect out to that distance.

And the F-16s won't out-range Indian BVRAAMs for long. the Astra Mk1 itself has 100 km range, has two-way datalink and is supposedly "contemporary" as the IAF calls it, which means it matches the performance of the AIM-120C7 and possibly even AIM-120D. 

There is a dual-pulse Astra Mk2 in the works, which will be longer ranged, with a max range touted to be ~125 km with the added benefit of a dual pulse motor that allows for more energetic end-game maneuvering.

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## ziaulislam

MirageBlue said:


> Neither the AIM-120C7 (there is no C9 variant) nor the AIM-120D have the range of the Meteor.
> 
> the AIM-120D (or C8 as it was formerly called) is basically a development of the AIM-120C with a two-way data link, more accurate navigation using a GPS-enhanced IMU, an expanded no-escape envelope, and improved HOBS (high off-boresight) capability.
> 
> It doesn't have additional range.
> 
> PL-15 is a somewhat unknown entity. It could pose a big threat or maybe not, we just don't know. Fanboy stuff is not equal to authentic data, which we get for Meteor, AMRAAM, etc. Still, the PL-15 hasn't been integrated with the JF-17, although it might well be eventually. In the JF-17's case, the Block 3's AESA radar will be a must to be able to use the claimed 150 km range of the PL-15. Neither Block 1 nor 2 will be able to use the PL-15 to it's full range anyway since the radar won't be able to detect out to that distance.
> 
> And the F-16s won't out-range Indian BVRAAMs for long. the Astra Mk1 itself has 100 km range, has two-way datalink and is supposedly "contemporary" as the IAF calls it, which means it matches the performance of the AIM-120C7 and possibly even AIM-120D.
> 
> There is a dual-pulse Astra Mk2 in the works, which will be longer ranged, with a max range touted to be ~125 km with the added benefit of a dual pulse motor that allows for more energetic end-game maneuvering.


Do you have google


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## BON PLAN

Turkish technology is so evolved that Russia suggest own engine and radar for TFX....

from a Swiss source : http://www.opex360.com/2020/06/04/l...-et-lavionique-du-futur-avion-de-combat-tf-x/


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## MirageBlue

ziaulislam said:


> Do you have google



You have it too. Find the authentic sources to back up your claims. If you can't, it's obvious that the claims are bogus.

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## BON PLAN

MirageBlue said:


> It doesn't have additional range.


maybe a little bit more, mainly by new trajectory in upper atmosphere. But it's just a small increase.



ziaulislam said:


> Not if f16c get aim120c-9 or aim120d
> Or if jf17 gets the PL 15(if not already)
> 
> Still 75 f16s out ranges anything india has..and had been for last 10 years.


This area, if true, will end in july...

Metor is said to have 3 times the NEZ of an AMRAAM C7.

End of the game.

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## MirageBlue

IAF Rafale single seater BS003

credit: Maciej Swiderski

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## polanski

Indian Air Force’s Rafale Jets Will be Delivered On Time: France: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...rafale-jets-will-be-delivered-on-time-france/


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## BON PLAN

Rafale to land in India in early July.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273597698252382209


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## MirageBlue

Looks like the Pakistani shivering has already begun.

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## Pakistani Fighter

MirageBlue said:


> Looks like the Pakistani shivering has already begun.


or maybe Time is near for Rafale to get shot down and crash

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## BON PLAN

Pakistani Fighter said:


> or maybe Time is near for Rafale to get shot down and crash


 

Rafale is far more efficient than Mirage 2000. You don't have destroye a single M2000 in more than 30 years, so.... Good luck with your chinese goodies.







True or not? I don't know the source.


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## Armchair

Going for more Rafales is a logical choice for IAF. Adding MiG-29s on the cheap is also a logical choice. The benefit of the MiG-29s is they are very sturdy warplanes that can be based in pretty remote locations, and operate from very basic runways. They don't require that long a runway which is of great use in the mountaineous areas that many FOBs of India are located in.

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## nangyale

BON PLAN said:


> Rafale is far more efficient than Mirage 2000. You don't have destroye a single M2000 in more than 30 years, so.... Good luck with your chinese goodies.
> 
> View attachment 643755
> 
> 
> True or not? I don't know the source.


Neither has India brought down any of our F7s, going by your logic they must be invincible too.

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## serenity

J-7 must be stronger than Rafale. Bon Plan. IAF failed to destroy a single J-7 in _*more *_than 30 years and J-7 in operation for much longer in PAF. Anytime the IAF finds balls to use Rafale, your little gust fighter will drop mysteriously. Good luck to jai jais with their new french toy. Pity they already surrendered. We won't even get a chance to **** Rafale like we fucked the Su-30MKI in 2017 and Pakistan also took one in 2019.

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## BON PLAN

serenity said:


> J-7 must be stronger than Rafale. Bon Plan. IAF failed to destroy a single J-7 in _*more *_than 30 years and J-7 in operation for much longer in PAF. Anytime the IAF finds balls to use Rafale, your little gust fighter will drop mysteriously. Good luck to jai jais with their new french toy. Pity they already surrendered. We won't even get a chance to **** Rafale like we fucked the Su-30MKI in 2017 and Pakistan also took one in 2019.


Easy to answer : J7 don't have the range to be near the frontline.


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## serenity

BON PLAN said:


> Easy to answer : J7 don't have the range to be near the frontline.



Yes good answer. Now let's give this some time and see how Indians prove themselves. To be honest even if Rafale in IAF hands fail, everything fails in their hands.

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## Pakistani Fighter

BON PLAN said:


> Rafale is far more efficient than Mirage 2000. You don't have destroye a single M2000 in more than 30 years, so.... Good luck with your chinese goodies.


Chinese Goody JF17 Locked one Mirage 2000 on 26th and Jammed your Mirage 2000 Radars on 27th Feb
@airomerix

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## Armchair

J-7s are usually flying near Lahore, right across the border. Who talks about range of MiG-21 derivatives? What do you think Abhinandan was flying? A hot dog?

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## BON PLAN

serenity said:


> Yes good answer. Now let's give this some time and see how Indians prove themselves. To be honest even if Rafale in IAF hands fail, everything fails in their hands.


Let's see.
I'm afraid they say exactly the same thing in the opposite sens.


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## nangyale

BON PLAN said:


> Easy to answer : J7 don't have the range to be near the frontline.


Not a good answer.
In fact PAF pilots (flying Syrian Mig-21s) managed to bring down Israeli Mirages previously.
Don't expect any mercy for your precious Rafales from PAF. In Indian hands, probably the best you can expect is some medals like SD 10 Dodgers.

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## MirageBlue

Pakistani Fighter said:


> or maybe Time is near for Rafale to get shot down and crash



Dream on. There's no tax on that.



nangyale said:


> Not a good answer.
> In fact PAF pilots (flying Syrian Mig-21s) managed to bring down Israeli Mirages previously.
> Don't expect any mercy for your precious Rafales from PAF. In Indian hands, probably the best you can expect is some medals like SD 10 Dodgers.



On the contrary, it's your PAF that will be desperately looking at tactics to avoid Meteors. And so far, the best tactic is to fly back as fast as you can.



BON PLAN said:


> Rafale is far more efficient than Mirage 2000. You don't have destroye a single M2000 in more than 30 years, so.... Good luck with your chinese goodies.
> 
> View attachment 643755
> 
> 
> True or not? I don't know the source.



There is a rumor going around, but it isn't yet confirmed. Will wait for confirmation from more authoritative sources.

Makes a LOT of sense actually. They can then forget about the MRCA tender that originally wanted 126 fighters and focus on the Tejas Mk2. If the IAF gets 72 or 80 Rafales, that gives them 4 squadrons, plus TACDE and working with the Su-30MKIs, they will be formidable.



serenity said:


> Yes good answer. Now let's give this some time and see how Indians prove themselves. To be honest even if Rafale in IAF hands fail, everything fails in their hands.



Tell me frankly, how many PLAAF J-10s have crashed to date? What about the naval J-15s that you copied from Su-33s and the PLAN crashed 3 of already? What about J-11s? Right, there is no public release unless the airplane crashes right in front of people and videos are leaked.

The less the PLA folks talk about attrition, the better. You cover up the facts, never reveal the truth for fear of losing face. We don't do that, we own up to our losses.

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## nangyale

MirageBlue said:


> On the contrary, it's your PAF that will be desperately looking at tactics to avoid Meteors. And so far, the best tactic is to fly back as fast as you can.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a rumor going around, but it isn't yet confirmed. Will wait for confirmation from more authoritative sources.
> 
> Makes a LOT of sense actually. They can then forget about the MRCA tender that originally wanted 126 fighters and focus on the Tejas Mk2. If the IAF gets 72 or 80 Rafales, that gives them 4 squadrons, plus TACDE and working with the Su-30MKIs, they will be formidable.


Yeah right.
Your latest god Rafale/Meteor, worship it. Just Hope you will be slapping sd Dodger badges, rather than plucking one off its wind-pipe.

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## MirageBlue

serenity said:


> J-7 must be stronger than Rafale. Bon Plan. IAF failed to destroy a single J-7 in _*more *_than 30 years and J-7 in operation for much longer in PAF. Anytime the IAF finds balls to use Rafale, your little gust fighter will drop mysteriously. Good luck to jai jais with their new french toy. Pity they already surrendered. We won't even get a chance to **** Rafale like we fucked the Su-30MKI in 2017 and Pakistan also took one in 2019.



It's not the IAF's fault that the PAF doesn't even dare to bring a F-7P or PG to the frontline of combat. Or else, those would be the first to go down, with their lack of any BVRAAMs.

As far as the PLA goes, you didn't do shit. All this talk is just that- talk. If China has the balls to do anything, they should actually go ahead and try it out. Copy cats talking big that's all. There's a reason no one respects China for real.



nangyale said:


> Yeah right.
> Your latest god Rafale/Meteor, worship it. Just Hope you will be slapping sd Dodger badges, rather than plucking one off its wind-pipe.



Like you worship China and it's low quality wares. Oh JF-17 so great, SD-10 so great, yada yada. Nobody cares. BTW, the SD-10 is a R-77 ripoff, so hardly anything to worry about, right?

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## nangyale

MirageBlue said:


> Like you worship China and it's low quality wares. Oh JF-17 so great, SD-10 so great, yada yada. Nobody cares. BTW, the SD-10 is a R-77 ripoff, so hardly anything to worry about, right?


We are monotheistic, so we don't worship any other beings apart from the One.
Bring your Rafales to Pakistani airspace and we will see how they fare.
SD Dodgers or SD swallowers.

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## MirageBlue

nangyale said:


> We are monotheistic, so we don't worship any other beings apart from the One.
> Bring your Rafales to Pakistani airspace and we will see how they fare.
> SD Dodgers or SD swallowers.



Who cares whether you're monotheistic or atheists or whatever. Your national obsession with religion percolates into everything and it's showing everywhere on this forum as well.

The more you underestimate your opponent, the likelier you are to fail. the IAF will prepare for it's role, will train hard with the Rafale and if required, will use it as it sees fit. That's what professionals do.

You guys on the other hand can fight your internet wars with your mythical wares. Doesn't make a whit of a difference in the real world.

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## BON PLAN

nangyale said:


> In fact PAF pilots (flying Syrian Mig-21s) managed to bring down Israeli Mirages previously.


another war..... among all the ones loosed by the muslim coalition.



nangyale said:


> Don't expect any mercy for your precious Rafales from PAF.


they don't need any mercy.



nangyale said:


> In Indian hands, probably the best you can expect is some medals like SD 10 Dodgers.


we just have to wait.... only a question of time.



nangyale said:


> We are monotheistic, so we don't worship any other beings apart from the One.
> Bring your Rafales to Pakistani airspace and we will see how they fare.
> SD Dodgers or SD swallowers.


Pakistan is a true colander :The US, with 2 helo, were able to shoot on your soil Bin Laden, at a few kilometers from a military school.....

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## Armchair

It's funny to see a French jingoistic account on PDF

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## Tameem

BON PLAN said:


> Pakistan is a true colander :The US, with 2 helo, were able to shoot on your soil Bin Laden, at a few kilometers from a military school.....



Yeah! Big Tactical Victory by world super power against Pakistan.
But What about strategic implications after 20 years war with trillions of Dollar input....nothing Zilch have to make agreements with the same Taliban for a safe exit against whom War is started in the first place. Its like running with your tail between your legs.
On the negotiation Table too India is Nowhere, world powers toeing the line Pakistan put across despite Billions of dollar investment by India herself. Pakistan Wins strategically once again.


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## BON PLAN

Armchair said:


> It's funny to see a French jingoistic account on PDF


what means "jingoistic" ?



Tameem said:


> Pakistan Wins strategically once again


 You'are so funny.


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## Tameem

BON PLAN said:


> [emoji38][emoji38][emoji38] You'are so funny.


Yeah, Running away from whole of my argument and quoting just last sentence but still it's me who is funny [emoji23].

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## Han Patriot

MirageBlue said:


> It's not the IAF's fault that the PAF doesn't even dare to bring a F-7P or PG to the frontline of combat. Or else, those would be the first to go down, with their lack of any BVRAAMs.
> 
> As far as the PLA goes, you didn't do shit. All this talk is just that- talk. If China has the balls to do anything, they should actually go ahead and try it out. Copy cats talking big that's all. There's a reason no one respects China for real.
> 
> 
> 
> Like you worship China and it's low quality wares. Oh JF-17 so great, SD-10 so great, yada yada. Nobody cares. BTW, the SD-10 is a R-77 ripoff, so hardly anything to worry about, right?


Tell that to your 20 dead kids and 10 captured Jawans including a couple of officers. Moral of the story, next time stand still when we are tying you up,dont jump into the river. Lol

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## Tameem

BON PLAN said:


> No one won against talibans.
> Taliban are not Pakistanis, so no reason for you to take a piece of their mastery. And it's far better to let them alone in their dry mountains, with sheeps....
> 
> Fact remains that US troop enter easily in your country, and rape the most dangerous terrorist of the world. Terrorist that was staying freely on your soil, with your agreement = An international shame !


Yeah Talibans comes from space and bids for India's intrests [emoji23]

It was a setback I already acknowledge but the larger picture after it you consistently avoiding to recognize funnily is, Still USA and world powers force to acknowledge our point of view and intrests in Afghanistan's matters strategically. India was not on the negotiation table tells a lot about our success.


----------



## nangyale

MirageBlue said:


> Who cares whether you're monotheistic or atheists or whatever. Your national obsession with religion percolates into everything and it's showing everywhere on this forum as well.
> 
> The more you underestimate your opponent, the likelier you are to fail. the IAF will prepare for it's role, will train hard with the Rafale and if required, will use it as it sees fit. That's what professionals do.
> 
> You guys on the other hand can fight your internet wars with your mythical wares. Doesn't make a whit of a difference in the real world.


Like the IAF has been training hard and winning battles.....and getting medals for dodging missiles and promotions for getting shot down.



BON PLAN said:


> another war..... among all the ones loosed by the muslim coalition.


Giving you an example of how pilot training matters. If it was PA on the ground and not the SAA the war result would have been different.
But don't try to change the topic from air planes to war history.


BON PLAN said:


> they don't need any mercy.


Then ask your Indian clients to bring it to Pakistani airspace you will see what they need.


BON PLAN said:


> we just have to wait.... only a question of time.


Then wait and stop your stupid chest thumping.


BON PLAN said:


> Pakistan is a true colander :The US, with 2 helo, were able to shoot on your soil Bin Laden, at a few kilometers from a military school.....



Again trying to change topic. Ooh sorry that's only natural to frogs.


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## Han Patriot

BON PLAN said:


> and how many chinese death? some say 40..... unofficially.
> 
> 
> Afganistan never match with strategic ! Let them in the mointains, leave some napalm on the drugs fieds, and it's over.
> 
> Pakistan itself is not strategic. Just a pain in the Indian ***.


It was 5 injured, but some Indians say baahubali came and killed 50. Lol


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## Tameem

BON PLAN said:


> Pakistan itself is not strategic. Just a pain in the Indian ***.



Exactly INDUS is not strategic but India is[emoji23]

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## TheDarkKnight

BON PLAN said:


> another war..... among all the ones loosed by the muslim coalition.
> 
> 
> they don't need any mercy.
> 
> 
> we just have to wait.... only a question of time.
> 
> 
> Pakistan is a true colander :The US, with 2 helo, were able to shoot on your soil Bin Laden, at a few kilometers from a military school.....


Even rag tag militias are able to infiltrate well protected military installations by planning, use of stealth and most importantly with the element of surprise. So for, USA, a major military power of this time, being able to infiltrate in Pakistan is not something extra ordinary. Even if you want to go down this derogatory mindset, just consider the parity of size and resources between Pakistan and USA.
The real shame is to actually lose your entire country to Nazis without a proper fight - I mean size and resource wise Germany and France should have been quite comparable, but some cowards needed the Yanks and Brits from across the seas to come in bail them out. Every nation on history has their lows and highs, and OBL episode is one of lows for sure but I would rather have 10 OBLS captured in Pakistan than capitulate in-front of Nazis in such a sorry manner. Take a look at the Russians - despite being poor on resources fought very bravely.
In the end my advise is, which I know you will not get it but I would still give it here, is learn to be humble and show humility instead of acting like an arrogant twat.

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## BON PLAN

TheDarkKnight said:


> The real shame is to actually lose your entire country to Nazis without a proper fight


LOL.
When you don't know the France history, please close the hole under your nose.

So just a small lesson on the french history of WW1 and WW2 : WW1 was mainly won by France. All the battles were on the north of France, heavily destroyed at the end (not the German case) and France suffer the most casualties. It was so a shock that we did all to avoid another war, including some very bad choices as the Munich agreement.
The french army was one war late, with tanks badly used, lacks of radios, and mainly too old generals.
But we fought bravely. For exemple we destroyed in air combat as planes as the german did.

So take some time to educate yourself before telling nonsense.

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## MirageBlue

Han Patriot said:


> It was 5 injured, but some Indians say baahubali came and killed 50. Lol



5 injured? Well, well..so this is the level of misinformation that the CCP is spreading within China.

16 Chinese bodies were handed over by the IA to the PLA after the melee ended, as per official IA reports. Plus many were killed on the PLA side of the LAC. 
*
US Intelligence says 35 PLA dead, which should be the closest to the real number.*

Pity that your Govt. won't even give it's soldiers who died on a battlefield, a proper ceremonial farewell. Such a shame. The difference between a propagandist CCP driven country and a democratic country is night and day.

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## Han Patriot

MirageBlue said:


> 5 injured? Well, well..so this is the level of misinformation that the CCP is spreading within China.
> 
> 16 Chinese bodies were handed over by the IA to the PLA after the melee ended, as per official IA reports. Plus many were killed on the PLA side of the LAC.
> *
> US Intelligence says 35 PLA dead, which should be the closest to the real number.*
> 
> Pity that your Govt. won't even give it's soldiers who died on a battlefield, a proper ceremonial farewell. Such a shame. The difference between a propagandist CCP driven country and a democratic country is night and day.


16 bodies according to who? Indian media? The same media said 5 to 20 to 35 to 40 to 100 Chinese died. Your source is an ambiguous unknown Usnews, wtf. Who calls themselves Usnews and becomes reliable, its like creating a sure called Chinanews and then claiming shit. 

Chinese officially denied 40 soldiers died, that's your VK Singh figure. Lol. He said there must have been at least 40 dead, plucked out from his nostrils.

Where is the official IA report which says 16 were captured? Until today India officially denies any captured soldiers. A month or 2 ago, you guys were laughing when ajai Shukla claimed we intruded. GOI was saying all is good and Modi until today claims no territory lost and we didn't cross the LAC. Well of course we just took back our land, not Indian to begin with... Lolol


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## MirageBlue

Han Patriot said:


> 16 bodies according to who? Indian media? The same media said 5 to 20 to 35 to 40 to 100 Chinese died. Your source is an ambiguous unknown Usnews, wtf. Who calls themselves Usnews and becomes reliable, its like creating a sure called Chinanews and then claiming shit.
> 
> Chinese officially denied 40 soldiers died, that's your VK Singh figure. Lol. He said there must have been at least 40 dead, plucked out from his nostrils.
> 
> Where is the official IA report which says 16 were captured? Until today India officially denies any captured soldiers. A month or 2 ago, you guys were laughing when ajai Shukla claimed we intruded. GOI was saying all is good and Modi until today claims no territory lost and we didn't cross the LAC. Well of course we just took back our land, not Indian to begin with... Lolol



The problem with China and it's CCP controlled media will always remain that they will never allow anything to be published that they believe spoils China's image. The world is suffering the results of that, thanks to the lies that China told the world after the Covid-19 virus was detected.

Only Chinese and Pakistanis will believe the BS that Chinese state media peddles. In democracies, bodies have to be accounted for, unlike in a country like China where valiant soldiers that lost their lives in a battle are just made to disappear. Where will their families even go to raise a voice?

It's not as if the Indian soldiers dragged every Chinese body to their side and then handed them over. Many Chinese soldiers would've perished on their side itself on that night.

The thing with China is - you can fool yourselves believing your CCP narrative, but the rest of the world won't. NO ONE outside China trusts China's CCP lies anymore.

Article link



> *India Today TV has learnt that the tactical debrief on the ground -- a kind of First Information Report on the incident -- records 16 Chinese Army bodies handed back to the Chinese side after brawl No.3, including 5 officers. The debrief report does not specify if the Chinese Commanding Officer of the unit was among these five.
> 
> The 16 were Chinese Army men confirmed dead on the battlefield. It is speculated that many more of the injured Chinese -- as with the 17 Indian men who perished the following day -- may have died of their injuries later, though there remains no categorical confirmation of this, nor is there likely to be.
> *



As for calling US News ambiguous and unknown, well it's a widely read and respected news outlet in the US. A media outlet that isn't saying what the US Govt. wants it to say. You must be used to only Global Times which is well known as the CCP's propaganda mouthpiece.

That's what Communism does- the truth is ALWAYS hidden, if they feel that it gives a bad impression of the State, the Party, etc. Some day perhaps, the Chinese people will emerge from this backward thinking Party's hold and emerge into a world where the truth isn't constantly tinkered with or completely hidden.

This is what happens when a Communist Party controls ALL INFORMATION.

I honestly feel bad for the Chinese soldiers who died. They fought because orders were given, some died. The least a Govt. should do is to honor their death. That builds the morale of the fighting force. Hiding casualty figures and spreading lies will only serve to demoralize Chinese troops that know what really happened.

Once again, US intelligence confirms that 35 PLA soldiers died in the violence.

US Intelligence Source- China ordered attack on Indian troops in Galwan River Valley



> A senior Chinese general authorized his forces to attack Indian troops in the Galwan River valley last week, resulting in a brutal skirmish that killed dozens and dramatically escalated tensions between the two Asian powerhouses, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.
> 
> Gen. Zhao Zongqi, head of the Western Theater Command and among the few combat veterans still serving in the People's Liberation Army, approved the operation along the contested border region of northern India and southwestern China, a source familiar with the assessment says on the condition of anonymity. Zhao, who has overseen prior standoffs with India, has previously expressed concerns that China must not appear weak to avoid exploitation by the United States and its allies, including in New Delhi, the source says, and saw the faceoff last week as a way to "teach India a lesson."
> *
> The assessment contradicts China's subsequent assertions about what happened last week. And it indicates the deadly and contentious incident – in which at least 20 Indian and 35 Chinese troops died, and reportedly a handful on each side were captured and subsequently released – was not the result of a tense circumstance that spiraled out of control, as has happened before, but rather a purposeful decision by Beijing to send a message of strength to India.
> ....
> 
> Analysts say it's clear the incident did not pan out as China intended, not in the least because its state media outlets have all but erased the incident from their pages in the week since it took place. The U.S. believes Zhao, the Chinese general who commanded the forces involved, held a memorial service for the PLA soldiers who died in the incident – an occasion that would normally attract some form of state-sponsored publicity. Instead, Chinese censors have since cracked down on social media posts about the incident, including ones that mention "defeat" and "humiliation" when describing the dead or injured Chinese troops.*

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## aman_rai

Han Patriot said:


> 16 bodies according to who? Indian media? The same media said 5 to 20 to 35 to 40 to 100 Chinese died. Your source is an ambiguous unknown Usnews, wtf. Who calls themselves Usnews and becomes reliable, its like creating a sure called Chinanews and then claiming shit.
> 
> Chinese officially denied 40 soldiers died, that's your VK Singh figure. Lol. He said there must have been at least 40 dead, plucked out from his nostrils.
> 
> Where is the official IA report which says 16 were captured? Until today India officially denies any captured soldiers. A month or 2 ago, you guys were laughing when ajai Shukla claimed we intruded. GOI was saying all is good and Modi until today claims no territory lost and we didn't cross the LAC. Well of course we just took back our land, not Indian to begin with... Lolol


Even if 1 solider died... He deserves the respect....
Why don't you ask your communist government to come clean on it.... Oh... I forgot... You can't otherwise you will meet the same fate of those journalist who tried to expose China virus

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## Han Patriot

aman_rai said:


> Even if 1 solider died... He deserves the respect....
> Why don't you ask your communist government to come clean on it.... Oh... I forgot... You can't otherwise you will meet the same fate of those journalist who tried to expose China virus


Well that Dr was given respect
eventhough censored by local officials earlier. The central gov punished the local officials and reinstated him. He died while serving in a hospital. So how is the virus going on in India?

All soldiers deserve respect, but how to you want us to pay respects to when none died? 17 Indians died while fleeing by jumping into the river. Hypothermia


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## aman_rai

Han Patriot said:


> Well that Dr was given respect
> eventhough censored by local officials earlier. The central gov punished the local officials and reinstated him. He died while serving in a hospital. So how is the virus going on in India?
> 
> All soldiers deserve respect, but how to you want us to pay respects to when none died? 17 Indians died while fleeing by jumping into the river. Hypothermia


Ya... No one died from your side... Has one ever??? World knows how china suppress information... Ask your government to atleast release the names of injured soldiers.... Or you think no one was injured also...
And I was not talking about the doctor you killed... Many common people have disappeared when trying to expose Chinese virus.... 
And yes, whole world is having a bad time facing it because apparently the Chinese virus is the only made in china thing that is lasting long...

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## Han Patriot

aman_rai said:


> Ya... No one died from your side... Has one ever??? World knows how china suppress information... Ask your government to atleast release the names of injured soldiers.... Or you think no one was injured also...
> And I was not talking about the doctor you killed... Many common people have disappeared when trying to expose Chinese virus....
> And yes, whole world is having a bad time facing it because apparently the Chinese virus is the only made in china thing that is lasting long...


I don't know mate, that's the unofficial version might be some dead might be none. What I am sure is this from. Offciiaal responses:

1) 20 Indians died
2) Chinese denied capturing 10 Indians PRESENTLY after alleged prisoner release.. 
3) India government said all accounted for after alleged Chinese prisoner release.
4) China denied 40 dead after VK Singh claim there 'must' have been at least 40 dead.


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## The Maverick

Han Patriot said:


> I don't know mate, that's the unofficial version might be some dead might be none. What I am sure is this from. Offciiaal responses:
> 
> 1) 20 Indians died
> 2) Chinese denied capturing 10 Indians PRESENTLY after alleged prisoner release..
> 3) India government said all accounted for after alleged Chinese prisoner release.
> 4) China denied 40 dead after VK Singh claim there 'must' have been at least 40 dead.




The world will take USA news over state controlled China news any day any moment 
Everybody knows that.
China north Korea erc have zero credibility in the West were we live 
Lies fabrication of truth 
It's communism dictatorship state control 
Nobody wants that

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## Kingslayerr

Just a reminder thread is about rafale and not about who thrashed who.

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## Kingslayerr

So everything is being discussed in this thread except rafale and mods are doing nothing. Nice

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## MirageBlue

5 IAF Rafales to land in India on July 27. Meteor and SCALP ALCMs have already started arriving in India. Article mentions 6 were targeted, but now it is confirmed by Livefist that 5 will come in the first batch.

article link









> When the first Indian Air Force Rafale jets land in Ambala on July 27, their weaponry will have already been delivered and stored, ready for operations with the inaugural squadron, ‘Golden Arrows’. *Livefist *can confirm that key weapon stocks, including the SCALP cruise missile and Meteor beyond visual air to air missile, have already begun arriving in consignments, with the first lot to be completed by the first week of July.
> 
> At least six Rafales will take off from Istres, France and make a single stopover at the UAE’s Al Dhafra air force base near Abu Dhabi. The jets, to be ferried by Indian pilots, will be accompanied by a French Air Force tanker, possible one of the two new A330 MRTT tankers. While the initial plan was to deliver four Rafales, *Livefist *can confirm that the IAF and Dassault Aviation are working to ensure at least six airframes arrive in one go, with the possibility of that number increasing by a couple of airframes.
> 
> ..


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## Incog_nito

Is IAF planning to acquire another 36 rafaels?


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## MirageBlue

Incog_nito said:


> Is IAF planning to acquire another 36 rafaels?



So far, only rumours of it. No concrete news as yet.


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## BON PLAN

MirageBlue said:


> So far, only rumours of it. No concrete news as yet.


Indeed,
The IAF and indian top brass are waiting for the first trials in india prior to prepare an eventual follow on order.

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## BON PLAN

some nice pics of the bird...
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1448143


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## Hephaestus

Incog_nito said:


> Is IAF planning to acquire another 36 rafaels?


44 is what I gather. I could be wrong though.



BON PLAN said:


> some nice pics of the bird...
> https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1448143


Impressionnant

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## MirageBlue

Some IAF Rafale pics

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## Tameem

Indian Rafale equipped with RBE-2 AESA Radar.
Does this Radar have "FixedPlate AESA " or "SwashPlate AESA"??
I heard, It has FixedPlate AESA with +/- 70 degree azimuth
Is that True?
Anyone? @BON PLAN


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## The Maverick

Wow 

We need to order the next batch now not bothered whether it's 20 or 36 or 44 just get the next batch ordered now


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## BON PLAN

Tameem said:


> Indian Rafale equipped with RBE-2 AESA Radar.
> Does this Radar have "FixedPlate AESA " or "SwashPlate AESA"??
> I heard, It has FixedPlate AESA with +/- 70 degree azimuth
> Is that True?
> Anyone? @BON PLAN


Indeed. Fixed plate and +/- 70° view

A next iteration (F5 ?) will see the addition of two side antennae to increase the cover to +/- 160°



The Maverick said:


> Wow
> 
> We need to order the next batch now not bothered whether it's 20 or 36 or 44 just get the next batch ordered now


Politically I think it is necessary to wait the delivery in India, and some months of trials. A new batch ordered in early 2021 is the best possible I'm afraid.

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## Hephaestus

BON PLAN said:


> Indeed. Fixed plate and +/- 70° view
> 
> A next iteration (F5 ?) will see the addition of two side antennae to increase the cover to +/- 160°
> 
> 
> Politically I think it is necessary to wait the delivery in India, and some months of trials. A new batch ordered in early 2021 is the best possible I'm afraid.


I don't care. If it was up to me 128+ of these beautés would have been ordered right away with local manufacturing. But, alas.

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## The Maverick

For me the Rafale is the best 4th generation fighters in the world

Typhoon and f15 silent eagle and f18 superhornets are.good but the Rafale has the edge in 'ew suites and india have added the dash 5 elbit hms too


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## Ali_Baba

The Maverick said:


> For me the Rafale is the best 4th generation fighters in the world
> 
> Typhoon and f15 silent eagle and f18 superhornets are.good but the Rafale has the edge in 'ew suites and india have added the dash 5 elbit hms too



F15EX will have the Rafale for breakfeast.... lets not get ahead of yourself and this the "new raptor of the east"..

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## The Maverick

Ali_Baba said:


> F15EX will have the Rafale for breakfeast.... lets not get ahead of yourself and this the "new raptor of the east"..




No proof 
Just a blank statement 
What basis THE F15 is nearly 40 year old airframe with a huge RCS


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## Ali_Baba

The Maverick said:


> No proof
> Just a blank statement
> What basis THE F15 is nearly 40 year old airframe with a huge RCS



The F15EX electronics are new and state of the art, backed by the technological might of the USA. 

Guess which operating system the The Rafales uses for its mission computers ... 

The F15EX is the product of the military and industrial complex of the USA, the Rafale is the product of the military and industrial complex of France. Guess which country has the greatest military R&D capacity ....

France can barely keep the Rafale current, and had struggled to get an AESA ready for the Rafale..

Sigh.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Ahead of the arrival of the first batch on Indian soil, MBDA shares this image:




Very positive developments for the fighter fleet, may it continue.

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## The Maverick

"Ali_Baba, post: 12545487, member: 190090"]The F15EX electronics are new and state of the art, backed by the technological might of the USA.
Guess which operating system the The Rafales uses for its mission computers ...

The F15EX is the product of the military and industrial complex of the USA, the Rafale is the product of the military and industrial complex of France. Guess which country has the greatest military R&D capacity ....

France can barely keep the Rafale current, and had struggled to get an AESA ready for the

100% agreed
This why they have f22 raptor and f35 lightening

The f15 and f16 are being phased out as not top line fighters

All three euro Canada typhoon gripen and especially Rafale have taken the 4th generation to superior level to usa legacy teen fighters.


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## dbc

The Maverick said:


> The f15 and f16 are being phased out as not top line fighters
> .



no F15 EX is a beast, USAF just placed a 23 billion $ order so it’s not being “phased out”


In addition to the F-15s well-known and impressive flying characteristics, the F-15EX is capable of carrying an external payload of up to *22 AIM-9X Sidewinder and AMRAAM medium range air-to-air *missiles. Though the most modern US fighter—the F-35—was developed as a stealth aircraft, it is only capable of carrying four AMRAAMs within its weapons bay in order to maintain its stealth capability.

Highlighting the spectacular performance of even the original F-15, Boeing said in a company history, “In early 1975, flying out of Grand Forks Air Force Base in North Dakota, an F-15A known as Streak Eagle set many time-to-climb world records. Between January 16 and February 1, 1975, the Streak Eagle broke eight time-to-climb world records. *It reached an altitude of 98,425 feet just 3 minutes, 27.8 seconds from brake release at takeoff and coasted to nearly 103,000 feet before descending.”
*
The F15 EX also has the most powerful radar and the fastest mission computer, now it also has 5th Gen active /passive electronic warfare systems.


https://www.flyingmag.com/story/aircraft/air-force-orders-f-15ex/

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## Ali_Baba

The F15EX is a beast. Truly a beast. I would so much love to see in the PAF, if it had the money. Alas, that is not to be. It is far superior to everything in Europe right now, until the Tempest comes on line.

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## Lord Of Gondor

The Eagle's EX variant is also in the running for the 114 fighter deal for the IAF.


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## dbc

Ali_Baba said:


> The F15EX is a beast. Truly a beast. I would so much love to see in the PAF, if it had the money. Alas, that is not to be. It is far superior to everything in Europe right now, until the Tempest comes on line.



yeah, imagine sitting at the edge of space at a 100,000 ft with 22 AMRAAMs and a powerful AESA.

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## Fighting Falcon 01

Lord Of Gondor said:


> The Eagle's EX variant is also in the running for the 114 fighter deal for the IAF.


India is in no position to afford 114 F15 EX they are super expensive and setting up training and maintenance facilities will also increase costs ..... 36 rafale cost nearly 9 billion USD and the price of 36 F15QA was 12 billion USD I doubt india has that kind of money after purchasing rafale and the Corona virus ...... the only logical step is to go for additional rafale just forget F21 or F15 EX .....

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## Tameem

dbc said:


> yeah, imagine sitting at the edge of space at a 100,000 ft with 22 AMRAAMs and a powerful AESA.



dbc although Rafale overall design and specs are very good and promising but French still struggle to place a good AESA Radar on it. RBE-2 AESA it seems not very good what you say about it.

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## dbc

Tameem said:


> dbc although Rafale overall design and specs are very good and promising but French still struggle to place a good AESA Radar on it. RBE-2 AESA it seems not very good what you say about it.



AESA is all about software, the US was the first with the ZMAR in the 60s. So a head start with the largest investment on software and hardware evolution. The American AESA has more modes, more capabilities, more power, better range, resolution and hardware.

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## The Maverick

Tameem said:


> dbc although Rafale overall design and specs are very good and promising but French still struggle to place a good AESA Radar on it. RBE-2 AESA it seems not very good what you say about it.




Its superior to Any Radar in PLAAF & PAF for now & in the near term.

Thank fully we are no fighting USA or NATO .......... Infact more likely we will fighting along side them if USA gets its way and India Joins The Quad of USA Japan & Australia



Fighting Falcon 01 said:


> India is in no position to afford 114 F15 EX they are super expensive and setting up training and maintenance facilities will also increase costs ..... 36 rafale cost nearly 9 billion USD and the price of 36 F15QA was 12 billion USD I doubt india has that kind of money after purchasing rafale and the Corona virus ...... the only logical step is to go for additional rafale just forget F21 or F15 EX .....




We are not ordering 114 of anything .... And yes we cant afford it from USA especially 

Indian Air Force will 100% guranteed 

Pay $5 billion for 83 mark1a Tejas signing in Nov/Dec 2020 
Have paid $750 million for 12 SU30MKI to built in HAL india
Have paid $850 million for 21 mig21upg 

Indian Air Force are desperately pushing for follow order for rafales of 36 to 44 fighters 
But this order is only 50/50 and will not even be signed for 3 more years until intial order is complete

OR GOI has a rethink following china stand off and puts a emergency order in sooner.

*I KNOW IAF wants Rafale above any USA fighter of the 4 generation era.

*


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## Hephaestus

The Maverick said:


> Its superior to Any Radar in PLAAF & PAF for now & in the near term.
> 
> Thank fully we are no fighting USA or NATO .......... Infact more likely we will fighting along side them if USA gets its way and India Joins The Quad of USA Japan & Australia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not ordering 114 of anything .... And yes we cant afford it from USA especially
> 
> Indian Air Force will 100% guranteed
> 
> Pay $5 billion for 83 mark1a Tejas signing in Nov/Dec 2020
> Have paid $750 million for 12 SU30MKI to built in HAL india
> Have paid $850 million for 21 mig21upg
> 
> Indian Air Force are desperately pushing for follow order for rafales of 36 to 44 fighters
> But this order is only 50/50 and will not even be signed for 3 more years until intial order is complete
> 
> OR GOI has a rethink following china stand off and puts a emergency order in sooner.
> 
> *I KNOW IAF wants Rafale above any USA fighter of the 4 generation era.
> *



44 additional Rafale's are a must. Also, picking up all the Mirage's on offer. Are the Qatari's still offering them? Will that be a good idea?

@BON PLAN. Can the Armée de l'Air Française spare some.


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## jk007

Lord Of Gondor said:


> The Eagle's EX variant is also in the running for the 114 fighter deal for the IAF.



Is F-15EX cleared for India? I read that Boeing is asking that F-15EX be cleared for India. Is it already cleared?

I believe, with the latest actions, China has left no choice for India, but to get into USA camp. India can not handle China + Pak alone. Also, India can not afford to develop all weapons itself. It is too costly.

How much I wish India buying F-15EX.


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## HalfMoon

jk007 said:


> Is F-15EX cleared for India? I read that Boeing is asking that F-15EX be cleared for India. Is it already cleared?
> 
> I believe, with the latest actions, China has left no choice for India, but to get into USA camp. India can not handle China + Pak alone. Also, India can not afford to develop all weapons itself. It is too costly.



Clearance by US for sale to India is not an issue. Boeing asked India if they were serious about the MMRCA deal or not. They wanted to ensure India does not cancel the MMRCA 2.0 like it did earlier. Boeing will obtain the approval from US administration once India confirms that it is serious.


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## The Maverick

The only thing holding massive usa weapons entering the Indian military is India itself.

Usa companies are falling over themselves and use would love India to ditch Russia even Israel


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## Hephaestus

How does F-15EX solve India's requirements conundrum? 
In my opinion, go for more Rafale's. Somehow ensure local production by involving private players in conjunction with HAL.
Meanwhile, keep ordering more Mk 1 FOC & wait till Mk 1A

For the navy go for F/A-18F Super Hornet or Rafale M till TEDBF is ready. which could be a while.

Rafale M would be my choice.


----------



## Incog_nito

Hephaestus said:


> 44 is what I gather. I could be wrong though.
> 
> 
> Impressionnant



Maybe. What about the acquisition of other jets?


----------



## jk007

Hephaestus said:


> How does F-15EX solve India's requirements conundrum?
> In my opinion, go for more Rafale's. Somehow ensure local production by involving private players in conjunction with HAL.
> Meanwhile, keep ordering more Mk 1 FOC & wait till Mk 1A
> 
> For the navy go for F/A-18F Super Hornet or Rafale M till TEDBF is ready. which could be a while.
> 
> Rafale M would be my choice.


Any American plane in India's kit is lot different than rafale in India's kitty.


The Maverick said:


> The only thing holding massive usa weapons entering the Indian military is India itself.
> 
> Usa companies are falling over themselves and use would love India to ditch Russia even Israel


Yep, there are too many socialists & communists in india, who simply hate anything american.


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## The Maverick

Incog_nito said:


> Maybe. What about the acquisition of other jets?




I have listed them already 

21 Mig29 up delivery 2021-2022 = Ordered
12 Su30mki 2021-2022 = Ordered
36 Rafale 2020 -2023 = first 4 deliver this month 8 more by Dec 2020 
83 Tejas mark1a = price concluded signature Dec 2020 = 2023-2028
44 Rafale = IAF pushing 50/50 2024=2028

Thats 152 fighters definitely by 2028
44 more rafale possibly 

= 196 new fighters by 2028

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## The Maverick

jk007 said:


> Any American plane in India's kit is lot different than rafale in India's kitty.
> 
> Yep, there are too many socialists & communists in india, who simply hate anything american.



They need to sacked and imprisoned for treason and threat to national.security


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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

*New Delhi (July 19): *The Indian Air Force is reportedly planning to deploy the first batch of Rafale fighter jets in the Ladakh sector soon after they arrive in India on July 27 to bolster India’s military position in the region amid ongoing border tension with China.

The possible deployment of the fighter jets in the Ladakh sector is also on the agenda of the IAF commanders’ three-day conference which will begin on Wednesday, PTI reported, citing military sources.

_During the key meet, senior commanders of the Indian Air Force will discuss in detail the country's air defence system and also carry out an in-depth review of it. The conference will commence from July 22 and will be headed by Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria and attended by all seven of his commanders-in-chief.

Indian and Chinese forces have been locked in a bitter border standoff in eastern Ladakh since early May this year. The two sides started the disengagement process earlier this month in the first step towards de-escalation of border tensions.

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/...genda-of-key-iaf-commanders-3-day-meet/623972_


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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

HT:


> Air and ground crews have undergone full training on the aircraft including advanced weapons systems over the last one year in France,” said one of the officials cited above, speaking on the condition of anonymity.



Rafale does not even need weapons to severely damage PLA. During a NATO exercise few years back, a Rafale using solely it's SPECTRA pretty much shut down an entire battalion of S-300PMU2 missiles of Slovakia.


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## Imran Khan

nice to see hustle and tussle

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## Muhammad Omar

So that mean if China shot down Rafale or India shot down its own aircraft then they won't have any excuse like the made one if we had Rafale the situation would have been different

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## King Julien

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> HT:
> 
> 
> Rafale does not even need weapons to severely damage PLA. During a NATO exercise few years back, a Rafale using solely it's SPECTRA pretty much shut down an entire battalion of S-300PMU2 missiles of Bulgaria.



Hi, can you give link to read about this. 
Thanks


----------



## Amavous

I know Indians are show-offs but this is even too much by Indian standards. Border skirmish and tension with china have brought out the real insecurities and internal fears of the Indian establishment. Just consider this list of deployments on LAC

SU30MKI & MIG29 deployed
10K+ troop deployment
Chinook and Apache helicopters deployed
Indian navy deployed boats in the Himalayan lake (for crying out loud )
Indian special Para commandos deployed
MARCOS from Indian navy deployed
now Rafale is going to join this list

Man, I could only imagine the number of Bollywood movies next year celebrating victory over china. Each item on this list will produce at least 2 films.

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## HalfMoon

Muhammad Omar said:


> So that mean if China shot down Rafale or India shot down its own aircraft then they won't have any excuse like the made one if we had Rafale the situation would have been different



Now Rafale's reputation is going to be destroyed by the Indians. I feel for the French.

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## SD 10

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> HT:
> 
> 
> Rafale does not even need weapons to severely damage PLA. During a NATO exercise few years back, a Rafale using solely it's SPECTRA pretty much shut down an entire battalion of S-300PMU2 missiles of Bulgaria.


OK.

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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

King Julien said:


> Hi, can you give link to read about this.
> Thanks




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1048226663769812993

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## King Julien

Ok bro source doesn't seem good, u can delete it.. I'll try searching.
Thanks


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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

King Julien said:


> Ok bro source doesn't seem good, u can delete it.. I'll try searching.
> Thanks


Sebastian Clavier is Electronics engineer at Dassault so he knows what he is talking about


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## monitor

Let's see how long they can fly Rafale without accidents.

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## HalfMoon

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1048226663769812993



So you are saying Indian Rafales will be able to dodge the Indian S-300 system? Okay. I think that would be an improvement over the IAF performance on 27th February, 2019.

Even if Rafales escape being shot by the Indian S-300s they will be shot by the Chinese S-400s.



monitor said:


> Let's see how long they can fly Rafale without accidents.



Rafales are being deployed without any operational training. So you know what the result would be.

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## arjunk

'If we had spaceships on August 15 the result would be different'

-modi 2020

If this happens I want a positive rating

If China loses to India I want a negative rating

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## crankthatskunk

hehehe.
*The spring lambs to the slaughter house. *

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> The Indian Air Force is reportedly planning to deploy the first batch of Rafale fighter jets in the Ladakh sector soon after they arrive in India on July 27 to bolster India’s military position in the region amid ongoing border tension with China.


*There are great chances of CRASHING them in Ladakh, instead of being more useful in air combat.*

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## Ali_Baba

This decision smacks of desperation and fear. I smell, I smell,.. dhotis getting soiled up and down the length of India now.

This must be a directive from Modi himself. His must be running out of white dhotis by now!

The Indians and Modi must be feeling what Hitler felt like all those decades ago when the Reds(this time the Ruskies) bearing down on him while he was holed up in his bunker..

There is no other logic to explain this decision...

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## mig25

Good show of strength by India. I like the intent and going by the posts here its causing serious discomfort among some here.


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## Ali_Baba

mig25 said:


> Good show of strength by India. I like the intent and going by the posts here its causing serious discomfort among some here.



No .. everyone is shocked by the stupidity of the move and how it smacks of fear and desperation..

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## fitpOsitive

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> *New Delhi (July 19): *The Indian Air Force is reportedly planning to deploy the first batch of Rafale fighter jets in the Ladakh sector soon after they arrive in India on July 27 to bolster India’s military position in the region amid ongoing border tension with China.
> 
> The possible deployment of the fighter jets in the Ladakh sector is also on the agenda of the IAF commanders’ three-day conference which will begin on Wednesday, PTI reported, citing military sources.
> 
> _During the key meet, senior commanders of the Indian Air Force will discuss in detail the country's air defence system and also carry out an in-depth review of it. The conference will commence from July 22 and will be headed by Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria and attended by all seven of his commanders-in-chief.
> 
> Indian and Chinese forces have been locked in a bitter border standoff in eastern Ladakh since early May this year. The two sides started the disengagement process earlier this month in the first step towards de-escalation of border tensions.
> 
> https://www.timesnownews.com/india/...genda-of-key-iaf-commanders-3-day-meet/623972_


Good machine is one thing, and experience with that is another thing. 
Mary jaogy yeh mat kerna.

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## mig25

Ali_Baba said:


> No .. everyone is shocked by the stupidity of the move and how it smacks of fear and desperation..


Do you guys even think before you post? Care to explain your post?


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## Ali_Baba

mig25 said:


> Do you guys even think before you post? Care to explain your post?



It is written in simple plain english. If that is too hard for you to understand, I suggest you leave the forum and go back to tending your cows or something equally challenging and within your limited capabilities.

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## mig25

Ali_Baba said:


> It is written in simple plain english. If that is too hard for you to understand, I suggest you leave the forum and go back to tending your cows or something equally challenging and within your limited capabilities.


Yawwn! ok. So you have nothing to counter a simple question to explain your post. Should have known! You deserve to be in my ignore list.


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## I S I

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> HT:
> 
> 
> Rafale does not even need weapons to severely damage PLA. During a NATO exercise few years back, a Rafale using solely it's SPECTRA pretty much shut down an entire battalion of S-300PMU2 missiles of Slovakia.


I heard Rafale doesn't even need to take off. You just press ignition button & the enemy country gets nuked to stone age.. Jai hindi

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## alphapak

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *There are great chances of CRASHING them in Ladakh, instead of being more useful in air combat.*



That will be an expensive crash at 250 million usd a pop for a 4th gen fighter. Feel for the Indian tax
payers.



I S I said:


> I heard Rafale doesn't even need to take off. You just press ignition button & the enemy country gets nuked to stone age.. Jai hindi



Even their Mig 21 shoots down jets without firing missiles. They should deploy
mig 21's against China with Abhinandhan as the lead pilot.

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## mig25

Will the Chinese now deploy JF-17 Block 3 to counter the Rafale? It will be the ultimate statement from both Chinese and Pakistanis. Wait! let me make this a tweet and post it here as news!


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## xeuss

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> *New Delhi (July 19): *The Indian Air Force is reportedly planning to deploy the first batch of Rafale fighter jets in the Ladakh sector soon after they arrive in India on July 27 to bolster India’s military position in the region amid ongoing border tension with China.
> 
> The possible deployment of the fighter jets in the Ladakh sector is also on the agenda of the IAF commanders’ three-day conference which will begin on Wednesday, PTI reported, citing military sources.
> 
> _During the key meet, senior commanders of the Indian Air Force will discuss in detail the country's air defence system and also carry out an in-depth review of it. The conference will commence from July 22 and will be headed by Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria and attended by all seven of his commanders-in-chief.
> 
> Indian and Chinese forces have been locked in a bitter border standoff in eastern Ladakh since early May this year. The two sides started the disengagement process earlier this month in the first step towards de-escalation of border tensions.
> 
> https://www.timesnownews.com/india/...genda-of-key-iaf-commanders-3-day-meet/623972_



I do not assume that the Rafales will be based out of Ladakh. Do you know what base will they be stationed at?


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## wali87

Inshallah first Rafale kill will go to our air defence boys. Hopefully from an Anza3.
If they some how manage to escape their own air defence and venture in to our airspace, that it.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*Rafale pilots might need some time to gain experience and practice on their new toys. But this is India where everything works on the Bollywood tune.

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1284912948218146818*

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## Michael Corleone

so seen pakistani soldier on top of indian mig last year...
and will see rafale under chinese soldiers foot this/ next year

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## Ali_Baba

Michael Corleone said:


> so seen pakistani soldier on top of indian mig last year...
> and will see rafale under chinese soldiers foot this/ next year



It will make for an interesting wallpaper for sure. The J10C is basically the same as the Rafale, and lets not talk about how much of a leap forward the J20 is over anything India currently has.

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## Michael Corleone

Ali_Baba said:


> It will make for an interesting wallpaper for sure. The J10C is basically the same as the Rafale, and lets not talk about how much of a leap forward the J20 is over anything India currently has.


with j20 they don't even have to engage in WVR... oh man bad things will happen to india

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## Figaro

mig25 said:


> Good show of strength by India. I like the intent and going by the posts here its causing serious discomfort among some here.


The only people who should be scared by this "good show of strength" is the people of India. They should view this as an act of desperation and purchase of overpriced European weaponry. India's enemies meanwhile will only be laughing at India's lack of an arms industry and the need to hurriedly purchase from foreign vendors at exorbitant prices.



Michael Corleone said:


> with j20 they don't even have to engage in WVR... oh man bad things will happen to india


General doctrine for 5th generation fighters is they should not go into WVR. But then again, the J-20 is getting equipped with TVC and more powerful engines so I don't see why they could not go into WVR, even if this remains the job of J-10s and J-16s.

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## mig25

Figaro said:


> The only people who should be scared by this "good show of strength" is the people of India. They should view this as an act of desperation and purchase of overpriced European weaponry. India's enemies meanwhile will only be laughing at India's lack of an arms industry and the need to hurriedly purchase from foreign vendors at exorbitant prices.


Please spare us your lectures. India will do what it feels is right. We pay with our own money. It's a fighter aircraft and not a show piece that sits in the hangars. If we don't use it in a situation like this, I don't see why anyone would buy it. Lastly, India will buy what we want, when we want and use it how we want. A random Pakistani trying to question that is seriously Super lame!


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## alphapak

mig25 said:


> Will the Chinese now deploy JF-17 Block 3 to counter the Rafale? It will be the ultimate statement from both Chinese and Pakistanis. Wait! let me make this a tweet and post it here as news!



Pak will deploy Jf17 block 3 but China could deploy J20, J10, J16 plus S400's.
Good luck.

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## kongn

xeuss said:


> I do not assume that the Rafales will be based out of Ladakh. Do you know what base will they be stationed at?



1st squadron ambala,2nd hasimara.Detatchments may be deployed anywhere but these 2 and gwalior are permanent bases.

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## Tumba

Visited Leh last year IAF must have expanded the tunnels, hangers and other infra a lot to base so many toys thr...

Now Rafale that means the goodies already landed thr... pretty sure more expansions are in progress.. before winters come with -30 avg temp lots of work needs to be done


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## Aadi_1591

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> HT:
> 
> 
> Rafale does not even need weapons to severely damage PLA. During a NATO exercise few years back, a Rafale using solely it's SPECTRA pretty much shut down an entire battalion of S-300PMU2 missiles of Slovakia.


oh wow! another delusional bakht spotted.


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## serenity

S-300PMU3 from 2012 is when this SPECTRA test occurred. This is about eight years ago now and another thing is S-300PMU series use very different electronics and software. Even the first series of HQ-9 adopt Patriot style digital system architecture and phased radar arrays. But if 2012 cold war missile system is defeated by Rafale during exercise that must mean Rafale can defeat 2020 SAM systems too in real war. 6 Rafale can beat all PLAAF and PLA ground force, 36 Rafale can let New Delhi capture Beijing.

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## crankthatskunk

mig25 said:


> Please spare us your lectures. India will do what it feels is right. We pay with our own money. It's a fighter aircraft and not a show piece that sits in the hangars. If we don't use it in a situation like this, I don't see why anyone would buy it. Lastly, India will buy what we want, when we want and use it how we want. A random Pakistani trying to question that is seriously Super lame!



I agree. Like I said, you just send the spring lambs to the slaughter house. Why should we care.
Just a piece of advice, you saw that PC where a piece of AMRAAM was shown by IAF!!

*Did you find where was it's front end!! 
Did you find if it wasn't stuck in the "toi" of a Su 30MKi!!
*
Just a suggestion. 
I am sure you know after that piece of shrapnel , SU 30s were never seen near the LOC, were sent to the safety of Ambala AFB. 

We are keen to see how many days Rafale would fly in Ladakh that's all.


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## serenity

The only electronic warfare superpower is USA and China is really much more worried about American EW expertise. Both of us have been developing new generations of EMP weapons for repeated use and ability to specific targets. DRFM jamming style used by SPECTRA and its signal sampling ability is really low stuff for USA and even China now. F-35 has suite of electronics that make SPECTRA really seem from 1990s in electronic design. Gripen has superior suite similar in concept to Rafale. J-10C and later fighters also then adopted better DRFM and sensor fusion components related to ECM ECCM and more important, resistance to EW.

Sweden and Holland also more electronic powers than France. Holland not in weapons but technology and commercial design and fabrication. Sweden is able to build some very serious electronic weapons.

Indians beginning to learn about EW and beginning to realize which products to buy.

What will be interesting and competition is see whether PAF or PLAAF will get first Rafale kill. Of course only after this Rafale shoot down 10 J-20s and disable whole PLAAF with super duper hyper sPecTeeerRRRRRRAaaaaa.

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## Tumba

serenity said:


> The only electronic warfare superpower is USA and China is really much more worried about American EW expertise. Both of us have been developing new generations of EMP weapons for repeated use and ability to specific targets. DRFM jamming style used by SPECTRA and its signal sampling ability is really low stuff for USA and even China now. F-35 has suite of electronics that make SPECTRA really seem from 1990s in electronic design. Gripen has superior suite similar in concept to Rafale. J-10C and later fighters also then adopted better DRFM and sensor fusion components related to ECM ECCM and more important, resistance to EW.
> 
> Sweden and Holland also more electronic powers than France. Holland not in weapons but technology and commercial design and fabrication. Sweden is able to build some very serious electronic weapons.
> 
> Indians beginning to learn about EW and beginning to realize which products to buy.
> 
> What will be interesting and competition is see whether PAF or PLAAF will get first Rafale kill. Of course only after this Rafale shoot down 10 J-20s and disable whole PLAAF with super duper hyper sPecTeeerRRRRRRAaaaaa.



ok so as per ur expert opinion chinese already passed french in EW and now competes with UsA, and India has watsoever expertise then u have no idea where the French stands and where India stands ...

So enlightened urself I can assure you homegrown EW solutions in India are more than sufficient for watever cheap Ruski copies u throw ...


----------



## Crystal-Clear

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> Sebastian Clavier is Electronics engineer at Dassault so he knows what he is talking about


so he works for dassault lol . sounds like a made up story by an employee of dassault .

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## serenity

F-16AM and those Migs are all from before 21st century. S-300PMU defeat those in one exercise but was fooled by Rafale. Later F-16 versions maybe able to achieve similar results. Israeli airforce has good EW jamming equipment on their F-16. In fact French just put a name to this EW suite even though most good fighters after 2010 has similar things if not already much better and higher scope of instruments like EODAS integrated with EW. So marketing is important to keep saying a brand name and here it is SPECTRA but this isn't meaning other fighters don't have similar systems just without fancy name.



Tumba said:


> ok so as per ur expert opinion chinese already passed french in EW and now competes with UsA, and India has watsoever expertise then u have no idea where the French stands and where India stands ...
> 
> So enlightened urself I can assure you homegrown EW solutions in India are more than sufficient for watever cheap Ruski copies u throw ...



It's okay whatever. We won't fight you mighty Indians anyway. Already we have retreated in fear of Specterrrraaaaa! You have all of Ladakh now and there is 0% chance for war since we have given you everything. Cheap Ruski copies cannot achieve anything next to almighty IAF that is certainly convinced to both sides which is why PLA left and India has been given all of Ladakh up to finger 8 and all Galwan Valley. Jia Hindi!



Crystal-Clear said:


> so he works for dassault lol . sounds like a made up story by an employee of dassault .



This engineer is proud their 2012 fighter with AESA upgrade and maybe even some upgrades to electronics, has defeated 1999 missile system and some 1980s and 1990s fighters did not achieve what their 2012 fighter achieved. India is very impressed. They will be happy about having this and not use it until maybe years later like Su-30MKI and then in real battle, the new French made "mighty Raptor of Asia" will not deliver like they imagined in the time between being happy and talking about new raptor of asian skies, and the time where these raptors achieve 0 kills and fail to prevent PAF molestation using non bragging equipment with no advertised name like SPEKKKTERRRAAAAA.


----------



## Crystal-Clear

serenity said:


> This engineer is proud their 2012 fighter with AESA upgrade and maybe even some upgrades to electronics, has defeated 1999 missile system and some 1980s and 1990s fighters did not achieve what their 2012 fighter achieved. India is very impressed.


so india will avenge the killing of 20 men after the arrival of rafael?
.
.
if not then ye chutiya banana band ker .

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## Tumba

Crystal-Clear said:


> so india will avenge the killing of 20 men after the arrival of rafael?



India already butchered double number of ur chinese bosses and Han King Xi not even giving thr decent burial as per han ways lol

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source

“THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”

Typical from han tyrant king xi

“China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”

Here latest report again says 35... I believe Indian source 40 heads crushed of han soldiers.

and fyi IA captured same rank and number of Pla soldiers ...


----------



## serenity

Jai jais only believe fake news from their own bullshit. Where is New York Times article on this 40 PLA killed by IA? Where is any government mention this? Not even India government or military.

However Indians were really actually killed. I guess Tumba is still angry at real happenings and need to masturbate to fake news from just one Indian owned US media and confirmed by nobody. Tumba pretend it was 10000 PLA killed by your babus. This will reduce the temperature of your asshole.


----------



## Tumba

serenity said:


> Jai jais only believe fake news from their own bullshit. Where is New York Times article on this 40 PLA killed by IA? Where is any government mention this? Not even India government or military.
> 
> However Indians were really actually killed. I guess Tumba is still angry at real happenings and need to masturbate to fake news from just one Indian owned US media and confirmed by nobody. Tumba pretend it was 10000 PLA killed by your babus. This will reduce the temperature of your asshole.




Haha when shown reality to u 50 cents and wats exactly happening in ur midal kindom u came up wih this ...
sure Indian owned


_*United States News*_ was founded in 1933 by David Lawrence (1888–1973), who also started _*World Report*_ in 1946. The two magazines covered national and international news separately, but Lawrence merged them into _U.S. News & World Report_ in 1948.[2] He subsequently sold the magazine to his employees. Historically, the magazine tended to be slightly more conservative than its two primary competitors, _Time_and _Newsweek_, and focused more on economic, health, and education stories. It also eschewed sports, entertainment, and celebrity news.[3]Important milestones in the early history of the magazine include the introduction of the "Washington Whispers" column in 1934 and the "News You Can Use" column in 1952.[4][5] In 1958, the weekly magazine's circulation passed one million and reached two million by 1973.[4]

Since 1983, it has been known primarily for its influential ranking and annual reports of colleges and graduate schools, spanning across most fields and subjects. _U.S. News & World Report_ is America's oldest and best-known ranker of academic institutions,[6] and covers the fields of business, law, medicine, engineering, education, social sciences and public affairs, in addition to many other areas.[7] Its print edition was consistently included in national bestseller lists, augmented by online subscriptions. Additional rankings published by _U.S. News & World Report_ include hospitals, medical specialties and automobiles.


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## serenity

Tumba said:


> Haha when shown reality to u 50 cents and wats exactly happening in ur midal kindom u came up wih this ...
> sure Indian owned
> 
> 
> _*United States News*_ was founded in 1933 by David Lawrence (1888–1973), who also started _*World Report*_ in 1946. The two magazines covered national and international news separately, but Lawrence merged them into _U.S. News & World Report_ in 1948.[2] He subsequently sold the magazine to his employees. Historically, the magazine tended to be slightly more conservative than its two primary competitors, _Time_and _Newsweek_, and focused more on economic, health, and education stories. It also eschewed sports, entertainment, and celebrity news.[3]Important milestones in the early history of the magazine include the introduction of the "Washington Whispers" column in 1934 and the "News You Can Use" column in 1952.[4][5] In 1958, the weekly magazine's circulation passed one million and reached two million by 1973.[4]
> 
> Since 1983, it has been known primarily for its influential ranking and annual reports of colleges and graduate schools, spanning across most fields and subjects. _U.S. News & World Report_ is America's oldest and best-known ranker of academic institutions,[6] and covers the fields of business, law, medicine, engineering, education, social sciences and public affairs, in addition to many other areas.[7] Its print edition was consistently included in national bestseller lists, augmented by online subscriptions. Additional rankings published by _U.S. News & World Report_ include hospitals, medical specialties and automobiles.



Okay where is NYT and other sources confirm this?? Why has Indian military and Indian government told this small newspaper but not tell anyone else and since it already told this newspaper and source leaked this, why did this same source not leak to other bigger papers? Maybe because they checked and it is not true?


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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

HalfMoon said:


> So you are saying Indian Rafales will be able to dodge the Indian S-300 system? Okay. I think that would be an improvement over the IAF performance on 27th February, 2019.
> 
> Even if Rafales escape being shot by the Indian S-300s they will be shot by the Chinese S-400s.


India does not have S-300s. It is China who has S-300 copies including HQ-9.

Also S-400 too cannot work against Rafale


----------



## Tumba

serenity said:


> Okay where is NYT and other sources confirm this?? Why has Indian military and Indian government told this small newspaper but not tell anyone else and since it already told this newspaper and source leaked this, why did this same source not leak to other bigger papers? Maybe because they checked and it is not true?



Read again US news quoting sources from US intelligence Agency

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source

“THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”

Typical from han tyrant king xi

“China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”

And shameless chinese 50 centres shud better ask thr Han King Xi why not even a decent burial for butchered hans in Ladakh from Indian Soldiers hands...

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## serenity

Tumba said:


> Read again US news quoting sources from US intelligence Agency
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source
> 
> “THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”
> 
> Typical from han tyrant king xi
> 
> “China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”
> 
> And shameless chinese 50 centres shud better ask thr Han King Xi why not even a decent burial for butchered hans in Ladakh from Indian Soldiers hands...



Which US Intelligence agency? How come so far not single US or any intelligence agency support this one small newspaper's claim? You realize they have press briefings and conferences all the time and US state and US intelligence agencies have not said this and also no one else report on this except this newspaper? Some newspapers also write articles about aliens building Egypt pyramids and Earth maybe flat. Also true huh?

So far we know no country state or intelligence agency confirm this and suspiciously also no other higher reputation news even report this. So how come Indian military and Indian government refuse to say this and how come this source or intelligence agency don't say which agency and how come they only tell one small newspaper?

How come Chinese could kill 20 Indians and capture more than 40 while suffering such huge loss? Why we didn't just kill the captured guys? Since you guys killed 40 or more PLA, why PLA manage to capture at least 40 soldiers and return most the next day and return 10 one week later? If PLA was killed in such high numbers why we bother capture so many of your guys? More than 40! Somehow PLA was suffered such high deaths and then still captured more than 40 Indians and killed at least 20. Yet Indians could count how many PLA they killed for sure. LOL


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## Tumba

serenity said:


> Which US Intelligence agency? How come so far not single US or any intelligence agency support this one small newspaper's claim? You realize they have press briefings and conferences all the time and US state and US intelligence agencies have not said this and also no one else report on this except this newspaper? Some newspapers also write articles about aliens building Egypt pyramids and Earth maybe flat. Also true huh?
> 
> So far we know no country state or intelligence agency confirm this and suspiciously also no other higher reputation news even report this. So how come Indian military and Indian government refuse to say this and how come this source or intelligence agency don't say which agency and how come they only tell one small newspaper?



pretty sure USnews is much more neutral and reputed source than anything coming out of chinese propaganda news haha

for ur information again m pasting it read and see how shameless and coward ur govt and military is not even giving decent burial to han soldiers killed on thr orders

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source

“THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”

Typical from han tyrant king xi

“China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”


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## serenity

Tumba said:


> pretty sure USnews is much more neutral and reputed source than anything coming out of chinese propaganda news haha
> 
> for ur information again m pasting it read and see how shameless and coward ur govt and military is not even giving decent burial to han soldiers killed on thr orders
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source
> 
> “THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”
> 
> Typical from han tyrant king xi
> 
> “China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”



You didn't answer my question of why only US News report this and this small newspaper alone. Why not others? This has nothing to do with Chinese news. If whoever told US News either from US Intelligence agency or wherever, why did they only release this to US News? Makes it less believable. Since they release this to public, why not also let other news know? Why has India government and military stayed silent? India knows more than US intelligence agency.

Isn't it far more likely that this "US Intelligence Agency" is just made up by US News? How would US Intelligence Agency know the number while Indian gov and military doesn't? So since this information is public, why not actually say it rather than just giving this to US News alone?

Any journalist can write these words "according to US Intelligence". Journalists lie more than politicians. Why do you believe everything they say when they cannot even provide more proof beyond "anonymous credible source".

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## Tumba

serenity said:


> You didn't answer my question of why only US News report this and this small newspaper alone. Why not others? This has nothing to do with Chinese news. If whoever told US News either from US Intelligence agency or wherever, why did they only release this to US News? Makes it less believable. Since they release this to public, why not also let other news know? Why has India government and military stayed silent? India knows more than US intelligence agency.
> 
> Isn't it far more likely that this "US Intelligence Agency" is just made up by US News? How would US Intelligence Agency know the number while Indian gov and military doesn't? So since this information is public, why not actually say it rather than just giving this to US News alone?



ask ur Chinese communist party govt about this why they never gave away any number or even as per intelligence agency of US not even providing decent burial to butchered chinese soldiers in ladakh ..

I want u to read this again so u understand what little honor u chinese cowards have haha

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source

“THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”

Typical from han tyrant king xi

“China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”


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## Maarkhoor

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> *New Delhi (July 19): *The Indian Air Force is reportedly planning to deploy the first batch of Rafale fighter jets in the Ladakh sector soon after they arrive in India on July 27 to bolster India’s military position in the region amid ongoing border tension with China.
> 
> The possible deployment of the fighter jets in the Ladakh sector is also on the agenda of the IAF commanders’ three-day conference which will begin on Wednesday, PTI reported, citing military sources.
> 
> _During the key meet, senior commanders of the Indian Air Force will discuss in detail the country's air defence system and also carry out an in-depth review of it. The conference will commence from July 22 and will be headed by Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria and attended by all seven of his commanders-in-chief.
> 
> Indian and Chinese forces have been locked in a bitter border standoff in eastern Ladakh since early May this year. The two sides started the disengagement process earlier this month in the first step towards de-escalation of border tensions.
> 
> https://www.timesnownews.com/india/...genda-of-key-iaf-commanders-3-day-meet/623972_


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## serenity

Okay I see still no answer to my questions except dodging. US News and Paul D Shinkman's anonymous according to US Intelligence is higher authority than Indian military, Indian government, and require no proof except to say according to US Intelligence. According to US Intelligence, China lost 100 PLA generals and India is mighty jai hindis with white servants.


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## Tumba

serenity said:


> Okay I see still no answer to my questions except dodging. US News and Paul D Shinkman's anonymous according to US Intelligence is higher authority than Indian military, Indian government, and require no proof except to say according to US Intelligence. According to US Intelligence, China lost 100 PLA generals and India is mighty jai hindis with white servants.



Indian sources says 43 han soldiers heads crushed and same number of hans thrown downhill same num and rank captured after chinese cowardly ambushed Indian soldiers for 16 Bihar same evening...

u can believe Indian source but if u want to check neutral source here u go haha

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source

“THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”

Typical from han tyrant king xi

“China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”


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## Tumba

serenity said:


> You still angry more than 20 of your dotheads were really crushed? The photos are there. Your dotheads didn't protect them from being bashed open with their dothead brain juice leaking out. That's real. Your masturbation fantasies are up to you.
> 
> All you jai jais have from this whole thing is one video of group of rapists beating one Chinese guy. We have photos of our men tying your dogs up like slaves and we have photos of your Bihar with skulls leaking brain juice from bullet wound and bashed open. Bihar is good at shitting on streets and raping women so the excuse you must use is 43 PLA killed or whatever you want to fantasize. I say it is good exchange. Still your army deny reality of PLA butchering your shit army and keep number to 20+ dotheads killed. Reality is much more than 20 and your coward leader Modi surrendered finger 5 to 8 and all the major lines to Galwan. Another reality.



calm down little chinaman and just try to ask ur ccp govt even as an anonymous why no mention of any Chinese casualties why not giving even decent burial to han soldiers whose heads were burst open by rocks like a can crushed under a truck why no respect to chinese soldiers who on orders cowardly ambushed Indian soldiers first and got double the reward see how its now in open how ur cowardly army and govt not even giving basic respect of a brutally killed han soldier


https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source

“THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”

Typical from han tyrant king xi

“China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”


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## serenity

Tumba said:


> calm down little chinaman and just try to ask ur ccp govt even as an anonymous why no mention of any Chinese casualties why not giving even decent burial to han soldiers whose heads were burst open by rocks like a can crushed under a truck why no respect to chinese soldiers who on orders cowardly ambushed Indian soldiers first and got double the reward see how its now in open how ur cowardly army and govt not even giving basic respect of a brutally killed han soldier
> 
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source
> 
> “THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”
> 
> Typical from han tyrant king xi
> 
> “China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”



So basically _*definitely *_India's 20+ killed with skulls bashed in and dotheads removed and some photos to prove it while also admitted by India government and military. On other hand, just US News saying some anonymous intelligence source thinks potentially it is possible that 35 PLA killed with no evidence and no official country or organization confirm this or even mention this as possible, just one small US newspaper.



Indian like you make winning too easy.

Jai Jai quickly deploy Rafale take back Pangong Finger 5 to 8! India always claimed to Finger 8!

India conduct 0 exercise because ammunition for exercise is not enough to fight war. India after conducting just 1 exercise will have nothing left to fight a war. So far India just put more dotheads to near Ladakh but behind finger 2 lol even though you dotheads always claimed to finger 8.

India wanted to put T-90 right to finger 2 but realize they need light tank and built for high altitudes. Now hurried to buy high altitude light tank but can't find seller.

https://twitter.com/Swamy39?ref_src...io/iframe/twitter.min.html1271441388844941319



India the joker clown fake mightiness. I will tell you this. India will not fight China unless it receives USA's guarantee to support or maybe join after USA go to war against China. You pussy street shit rapist army will have your skulls crushed every single time you meet Chinese army.

Even France give you 36 Rafale now or 100 or 360, you will not use.

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## Tumba

serenity said:


> So basically _*definitely *_India's 20+ killed with skulls bashed in and dotheads removed and some photos to prove it while also admitted by India government and military. On other hand, just US News saying some anonymous intelligence source thinks potentially it is possible that 35 PLA killed with no evidence and no official country or organization confirm this or even mention this as possible, just one small US newspaper.
> 
> 
> 
> Indian like you make winning too easy.
> 
> Jai Jai quickly deploy Rafale take back Pangong Finger 5 to 8! India always claimed to Finger 8!
> 
> India conduct 0 exercise because ammunition for exercise is not enough to fight war. India after conducting just 1 exercise will have nothing left to fight a war. So far India just put more dotheads to near Ladakh but behind finger 2 lol even though you dotheads always claimed to finger 8.
> 
> India wanted to put T-90 right to finger 2 but realize they need light tank and built for high altitudes. Now hurried to buy high altitude light tank but can't find seller.



calm down little chinaman why u r going overboard with insults why coz its exposed Now ur chini reality how cowards u r for ur shame read again and see how coward and shameless ur army and chini govt is

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source

“THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”

Typical from han tyrant king xi

“China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”


----------



## serenity

Tumba said:


> calm down little chinaman why u r going overboard with insults why coz its exposed Now ur chini reality how cowards u r for ur shame read again and see how coward and shameless ur army and chini govt is
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source
> 
> “THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”
> 
> Typical from han tyrant king xi
> 
> “China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”



Your dothead Modi government is real coward and shameless. Send over 100 of your street shitting professionals to have their skulls crushed by Chinis. We were too sweet to capture over 40 and return them, should have removed their dotheads and send into river and tell IA where to find their torsos only. IA should have known street shitters and professional rapists are not real army. We captured too many and their stink means we had to send them back next day because we can't stand your stink and your disgusting rapist mentalities.

US News rumor from Paul Shinkman is your one and last little masturbation fantasy. Meanwhile we take half of Galwan and up to finger 5 of Pangong Tso and split down middle even though dotheads always say they want all of it. Keep masturbating to Paul Shinkman's fantasy "US Intelligence according to" 

We will meanwhile enjoy half of Galwan to Pangong Tso finger 5 and talk about how soft dothead skulls were to crush.

https://twitter.com/Swamy39?ref_src...io/iframe/twitter.min.html1271441388844941319

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2...ndia-to-use-s-400-missiles-against-china.html



Jai Hind army realize it's easier to rape women than it is to really fight. Jai Hind is Pakistan's bitch and fail to contain Pakistan. Now Iran and Nepal both reject and dump jai hindi dotheads.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Tumba

serenity said:


> Your dothead Modi government is real coward and shameless. Send over 100 of your street shitting professionals to have their skulls crushed by Chinis. We were too sweet to capture over 40 and return them, should have removed their dotheads and send into river and tell IA where to find their torsos only. IA should have known street shitters and professional rapists are not real army. We captured too many and their stink means we had to send them back next day because we can't stand your stink and your disgusting rapist mentalities.
> 
> US News rumor from Paul Shinkman is your one and last little masturbation fantasy. Meanwhile we take half of Galwan and up to finger 5 of Pangong Tso and split down middle even though dotheads always say they want all of it. Keep masturbating to Paul Shinkman's fantasy "US Intelligence according to"
> 
> We will meanwhile enjoy half of Galwan to Pangong Tso finger 5 and talk about how soft dothead skulls were to crush.
> 
> https://twitter.com/Swamy39?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1271441388844941319|twgr^&ref_url=https://s9e.github.io/iframe/twitter.min.html1271441388844941319
> 
> https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2...ndia-to-use-s-400-missiles-against-china.html
> 
> 
> 
> Jai Hind army realize it's easier to rape women than it is to really fight. Jai Hind is Pakistan's bitch and fail to contain Pakistan. Now Iran and Nepal both reject and dump jai hindi dotheads.




Rofl here goes little chinaman Again

calm down little chinaman why u r going overboard with insults why coz its exposed Now ur chini reality how cowards u r for ur shame read again and see how coward and shameless ur army and chini govt is

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source

“THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”

Typical from han tyrant king xi

“China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”


----------



## serenity

Tumba said:


> Rofl here goes little chinaman Again
> 
> calm down little chinaman why u r going overboard with insults why coz its exposed Now ur chini reality how cowards u r for ur shame read again and see how coward and shameless ur army and chini govt is
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source
> 
> “THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”
> 
> Typical from han tyrant king xi
> 
> “China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”



Look at you little dothead yindoo. Still sore and butthurt. I know it's angering to hear your rapists were so easily crushed.

Is Modi enjoying his downfall?? HAHAHAHAHAHA Modi moody. The short little jai hind dothead cannot take real world power games because he is professional street shitter like all dotheads. Angry little brown men who have soft skulls. PLA murdered and executed your Bihar so brutally Indian gov and military keep begging for talks and negotiations and not even a year in conflict already surrendered 40% of your claims.

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## Tumba

serenity said:


> Look at you little dothead yindoo. Still sore and butthurt. I know it's angering to hear your rapists were so easily crushed.
> 
> Is Modi enjoying his downfall?? HAHAHAHAHAHA Modi moody. The short little jai hind dothead cannot take real world power games because he is professional street shitter like all dotheads. Angry little brown men who have soft skulls. PLA murdered and executed your Bihar so brutally Indian gov and military keep begging for talks and negotiations and not even a year in conflict already surrendered 40% of your claims.



haha wat happened lille chinaman u getting angry reading this ,,, read again haha

calm down little chinaman why u r going overboard with insults why coz its exposed Now ur chini reality how cowards u r for ur shame read again and see how coward and shameless ur army and chini govt is

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source

“THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”

Typical from han tyrant king xi

“China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”


----------



## BON PLAN

Ali_Baba said:


> F15EX will have the Rafale for breakfeast.... lets not get ahead of yourself and this the "new raptor of the east"..


F15 wasn't study to be FBW equipped. 
They add it... but the plane is not naturally instable, so the agility will not be improved. It's just an improvement for safety.

I read this week end a nice news in french about the F14 vs F15 trainings, specially when Iran was interested in the 2 planes (and was near a purchase of the two) : F14 in low speed was better than F15 ! 

And what about its RCS ! so huge.



Ali_Baba said:


> Guess which operating system the The Rafales uses for its mission computers ...


LOL, big LOL.

100% of the Boeing planes are studied thanks to a french software : CATIA .... a Dassault subsidiary...



Tameem said:


> French still struggle to place a good AESA Radar on it. RBE-2 AESA it seems not very good what you say about it.


The first prototyp of BRE2 AESA, called RBE2 AA (active antenna) used US T/R modules. The result was better than PESA but not enough. Something in the 40% improvement in range.
Then Thales used European T/R modules. The improvement versus PESA was +100%.
Far than enough to track and fire Meteor at full range. And Rafale is LO from the beginning. So even with a big radar it is difficult to be seen from long range as all the international trainings proved it.

F15 is all but stealthy. So it can be seen from very long range (as Su30 ! ).

Reactions: Like Like:
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## serenity

Tumba said:


> haha wat happened lille chinaman u getting angry reading this ,,, read again haha
> 
> calm down little chinaman why u r going overboard with insults why coz its exposed Now ur chini reality how cowards u r for ur shame read again and see how coward and shameless ur army and chini govt is
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source
> 
> “THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”
> 
> Typical from han tyrant king xi
> 
> “China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”



You only have this single US News. Read everything else.

99.99% of material shows and says China fucked India like nothing. You little dothead bitches no match for PLA. 0.01% US News with Paul Shinkman one guy says he has US Intelligence  you are in self fellatio land my yindoo dothead. Don't worry one day India will become super duper ... in 2012 like your duper supers predicted.

Worry about Nepal and Iran now also telling Yindoo dotheads to **** off. You lost in Ladakh already and agreements settled now. Yindoo dothead's old claims of all Galwan and Pangong up to finger 8 is no longer claimed. New border drawn at half way points where China's older 1950s claims are and 2km buffer going both way created. No more fighting here. Now the way to **** and toy with you dotheads is to keep you street shitter poor and undeveloped. Neighbors abandon you and your Zionist and Anglo buddies use you only and discard whenever it doesn't suit them. You reject Asia, now Asia rejects you.

US Intelligence public domain information do not say China lost any soldiers. Find it if you can please. So far it seems only noise about PLA losing soldiers is from Paul Shinkman writing for US News with lots of propaganda pieces to his name.


----------



## Tumba

serenity said:


> You only have this single US News. Read everything else.
> 
> 99.99% of material shows and says China fucked India like nothing. You little dothead bitches no match for PLA. 0.01% US News with Paul Shinkman one guy says he has US Intelligence  you are in self fellatio land my yindoo dothead. Don't worry one day India will become super duper ... in 2012 like your duper supers predicted.
> 
> Worry about Nepal and Iran now also telling Yindoo dotheads to **** off. You lost in Ladakh already and agreements settled now. Yindoo dothead's old claims of all Galwan and Pangong up to finger 8 is no longer claimed. New border drawn at half way points where China's older 1950s claims are and 2km buffer going both way created. No more fighting here. Now the way to **** and toy with you dotheads is to keep you street shitter poor and undeveloped. Neighbors abandon you and your Zionist and Anglo buddies use you only and discard whenever it doesn't suit them. You reject Asia, now Asia rejects you.
> 
> US Intelligence public domain information do not say China lost any soldiers. Find it if you can please. So far it seems only noise about PLA losing soldiers is from Paul Shinkman writing for US News with lots of propaganda pieces to his name.



love how lille chinaman getting angry, read again haha

calm down little chinaman why u r going overboard with insults why coz its exposed Now ur chini reality how cowards u r for ur shame read again and see how coward and shameless ur army and chini govt is

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source

“THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”

Typical from han tyrant king xi

“China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”


----------



## serenity

Tumba said:


> love how lille chinaman getting angry, read again haha
> 
> calm down little chinaman why u r going overboard with insults why coz its exposed Now ur chini reality how cowards u r for ur shame read again and see how coward and shameless ur army and chini govt is
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source
> 
> “THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”
> 
> Typical from han tyrant king xi
> 
> “China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”



 you Modi coward should ease your burning asshole. Keep fighting on keyboard. India is loser who lost all neighbors and territory. Too much sore *** for you?

You only have this single US News. Read everything else.

99.99% of material shows and says China fucked India like nothing. You little dothead bitches no match for PLA. 0.01% US News with Paul Shinkman one guy says he has US Intelligence  you are in self fellatio land my yindoo dothead. Don't worry one day India will become super duper ... in 2012 like your duper supers predicted.

Worry about Nepal and Iran now also telling Yindoo dotheads to **** off. You lost in Ladakh already and agreements settled now. Yindoo dothead's old claims of all Galwan and Pangong up to finger 8 is no longer claimed. New border drawn at half way points where China's older 1950s claims are and 2km buffer going both way created. No more fighting here. Now the way to **** and toy with you dotheads is to keep you street shitter poor and undeveloped. Neighbors abandon you and your Zionist and Anglo buddies use you only and discard whenever it doesn't suit them. You reject Asia, now Asia rejects you.

US Intelligence public domain information do not say China lost any soldiers. Find it if you can please. So far it seems only noise about PLA losing soldiers is from Paul Shinkman writing for US News with lots of propaganda pieces to his name.


----------



## Tumba

serenity said:


> you Modi coward should ease your burning asshole. Keep fighting on keyboard. India is loser who lost all neighbors and territory. Too much sore *** for you?
> 
> You only have this single US News. Read everything else.
> 
> 99.99% of material shows and says China fucked India like nothing. You little dothead bitches no match for PLA. 0.01% US News with Paul Shinkman one guy says he has US Intelligence  you are in self fellatio land my yindoo dothead. Don't worry one day India will become super duper ... in 2012 like your duper supers predicted.
> 
> Worry about Nepal and Iran now also telling Yindoo dotheads to **** off. You lost in Ladakh already and agreements settled now. Yindoo dothead's old claims of all Galwan and Pangong up to finger 8 is no longer claimed. New border drawn at half way points where China's older 1950s claims are and 2km buffer going both way created. No more fighting here. Now the way to **** and toy with you dotheads is to keep you street shitter poor and undeveloped. Neighbors abandon you and your Zionist and Anglo buddies use you only and discard whenever it doesn't suit them. You reject Asia, now Asia rejects you.
> 
> US Intelligence public domain information do not say China lost any soldiers. Find it if you can please. So far it seems only noise about PLA losing soldiers is from Paul Shinkman writing for US News with lots of propaganda pieces to his name.



haha

love how lille chinaman getting angry, read again haha

calm down little chinaman why u r going overboard with insults why coz its exposed Now ur chini reality how cowards u r for ur shame read again and see how coward and shameless ur army and chini govt is

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source

“THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”

Typical from han tyrant king xi

“China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”


----------



## serenity

Listen street shitter, I know your dothead is angry but Modi and Hindus are pussy weaklings and too small and short to fight anyone physically and too dumb to win wars. So I understand your frustration after brutal skull crushing from PLA but you should try to read more than just Indian media and a small US newspaper. All the other sources tell us how brutally your pussy army was crushed just in some light fighting.

Please calm down a little bit. We know you have just one link. We have many photos of your beaten skulls and street shitters being tied like dogs. I know this makes you angry so I don't spam post just one link like you little coward dothead.



Tumba said:


> haha
> 
> love how lille chinaman getting angry, read again haha
> 
> calm down little chinaman why u r going overboard with insults why coz its exposed Now ur chini reality how cowards u r for ur shame read again and see how coward and shameless ur army and chini govt is
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source
> 
> “THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”
> 
> Typical from han tyrant king xi
> 
> “China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”



Dothead please cool down otherwise I will switch off your internet and electricity? Please calm down. Just accept IA skulls being crushed and opened with bullets and try to rescue your relations with Iran and Nepal.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1284948808493871106
lol little dotheads misbehave and more than 20 dotheads crushed and more than 40 tied up like dogs. Misbehave more, take half your claims, keep misbehaving? Lose Nepal and Iran relations and agreements. Further naughty behavior and we take away your electricity. No more rape **** for dotheads. Go to street for shitting 











The dothead calling other people little. LOL

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## serenity

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1284307711601999872
So seems like professional liars India is confused. Before China wasn't in India and now it is? I think Indians don't understand claim lines and differences between two different claims lines. Seems like China is really in India's claims even after 1km mutual back off at mid way.


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## serenity

Musings said:


> To even contemplate this shows the desperation that India has to show they are a superpower.
> I’m not au fait with the airforce but surely when a new addition is added there must be operational and training procedure - otherwise they will be cannon fodder to the enemy?
> If according to silent poison mighty lion and drumstick - the Chinese have retreated - then why the desperation to send in something they haven’t even got?
> The desperation is incredible.



India had fantasy of being able to buy way into superpower status but wow the reality and the gap between India and real regional power is so huge. Even if beggar India can buy way into some small power status, it will not be enough to challenge Pakistan still and contain or take over it.



Tumba said:


> aaa little little chinaman
> 
> haha
> 
> love how lille chinaman getting angry, read again haha
> 
> calm down little chinaman why u r going overboard with insults why coz its exposed Now ur chini reality how cowards u r for ur shame read again and see how coward and shameless ur army and chini govt is
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source
> 
> “THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”
> 
> Typical from han tyrant king xi
> 
> “China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”



We are only scared of Indian rapists. Military only USA is beyond our abilities. You rapists? I think PLA more worried you little 170cm dotheads will commit rape like in Kashmir than it will shoot. India has not found single bullet to shoot towards our direction. Not even an exercise to threaten. Meanwhile PLA training in last two months already spend more ammunition than whole of India's army has collected from express post from Russia, Israel, and France lol. Don't worry a lot more metal to crack you dotheads open when you find balls to shoot.


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## IblinI

@serenity They don't deserved the attention and times, don't get down to their level (especially this guy).

on topic, India is indeed a wonderland, where new fighter on arrival does not required time to achieved foc,tatical training...etc.

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## LeGenD

Members are cautioned to keep it civil.

@Tumba

Better language advised; no labels.

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## serenity

Tumba said:


> too cute training from past two months haha...
> Poor hans will be butchered like 40 kins of theirs haha
> 
> haha here read again what happened to 40 hans butchered by Indians not even getting decent burials lol.. chinaman shame shame haha
> 
> love how lille chinaman getting angry, read again haha
> 
> calm down little chinaman why u r going overboard with insults why coz its exposed Now ur chini reality how cowards u r for ur shame read again and see how coward and shameless ur army and chini govt is
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source
> 
> “THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”
> 
> Typical from han tyrant king xi
> 
> “China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”



AHAHAHAHAHA poor jai jais got so beaten dead we took half your claims and you will still not fight for it. Verified facts with photos of Indian brains coming out of Indian skulls. China losing a single soldier only comes from Paul Shinkman's writing in one publication. Unverified but good masturbation material for Tumba the little brown dothead.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...1960-claims-along-the-lac/article32133689.ece

If mighty Jai Hindi dotheads are so strong and killed so many so easy, they are really cowards now isn't it? Beaten people only in Paul Shinkman's articles. Meanwhile Russia, UK, USA, *INDIA *recognize at least 20 Indians skulls crushed in and little dotheads tied up like dogs while returned in shame to loser IA. Such mightiness of your IA is really just raping women and killing old people. Everything else India is making propaganda like your soldier killed Kashmir child's grandfather and then pose with photos with child. Against real men who can fight back. Your skulls are crushed and your territory claims put into rubbish bin. Again recognized by all. Enjoy your US News article by Paul Shinkman.

Calm down and read everything carefully not just Paul Shinkman's "US Intelligence claims" where US Intelligence in reality did not confirm any of this Indian bullshit.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1285069516502732800
This is why. 170cm Modi the professional surrenderer talk big deliver only surrenders.

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## Jackdaws

Tumba said:


> too cute training from past two months haha...
> Poor hans will be butchered like 40 kins of theirs haha
> 
> haha here read again what happened to 40 hans butchered by Indians not even getting decent burials lol.. chinaman shame shame haha
> 
> love how lille chinaman getting angry, read again haha
> 
> calm down little chinaman why u r going overboard with insults why coz its exposed Now ur chini reality how cowards u r for ur shame read again and see how coward and shameless ur army and chini govt is
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source
> 
> “THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”
> 
> Typical from han tyrant king xi
> 
> “China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”



Calm down. The Chinese are simple people who come into our country begging for refuge. If they don't toe their Govt line, they will most likely be shot. Once they come here and after they are giving refuge, it's then only that they start singing dancing and praising India.


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## Figaro

Tumba said:


> calm down little chinaman


Reported for use of racial slur ...



Jackdaws said:


> Calm down. The Chinese are simple people who come into our country begging for refuge. If they don't toe their Govt line, they will most likely be shot. Once they come here and after they are giving refuge, it's then only that they start singing dancing and praising India.


May be the funniest thing I've read in a while. Please explain why there is close to 60k Indian expats in China, compared to just 6000 Chinese expats in India? Surely there would be many more expats if the Chinese were begging for refuge in India lol


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## Jackdaws

Figaro said:


> Reported for use of racial slur ...
> 
> 
> May be the funniest thing I've read in a while. Please explain why there is close to 60k Indian expats in China, compared to just 6000 Chinese expats in India? Surely there would be many more expats if the Chinese were begging for refuge in India lol


Lol. Do you know the difference between expats and refugees?

Expats are generally highly paid executives who do jobs because of dearth of talent / skill in a country.
Refugees are generally people who are persecuted and beg to be let in. Like about 100k Chinese citizens living in India after begging to be let in.


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## Figaro

Jackdaws said:


> Lol. Do you know the difference between expats and refugees?
> 
> Expats are generally highly paid executives who do jobs because of dearth of talent / skill in a country.
> Refugees are generally people who are persecuted and beg to be let in. Like about 100k Chinese citizens living in India after begging to be let in.


I'm sorry but why would persecuted ppl in China want to seek refuge in India when there are so many better options?


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## serenity

Figaro said:


> May be the funniest thing I've read in a while. Please explain why there is close to 60k Indian expats in China, compared to just 6000 Chinese expats in India? Surely there would be many more expats if the Chinese were begging for refuge in India lol


He's has to talk about 1960s Tibetan Buddhist refugees who escaped to India. Dalai Lama these losers will also call a Chinese refugee 

So some Tibetan anti-China Bhuddists seek Indian acceptance just like Dalai Lama becomes Chinese all love to live in India even in 2020. See how these Indians talk and think?

Indians think the year is still 1959 and some Tibetan Bhuddists are 2020 Chinese refugees.

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## Musings

Jackdaws said:


> Calm down. The Chinese are simple people who come into our country begging for refuge. If they don't toe their Govt line, they will most likely be shot. Once they come here and after they are giving refuge, it's then only that they start singing dancing and praising India.



Here is an example of the low intellect wanting to troll but pretending to be civil.

@Mangus Ortus Novem @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan - this is an example of what we have to factor into when discussing Indian interaction and keeping it civil.

Now lets tackle your post - Simple people? A nation that had extreme poverty 40 years ago is on the verge of being the next superpower - lift millions out of poverty and pretty much leading in everything in the world - yet you label over a billion people with the same label? Poor generalization.
Begging for refuge? God sake man show some sense of decorum and stop throwing words that Indian are themselves world famous for. Why the hell Chinese be begging to get into a sh1thole like India where they may struggle to even feed themselves? I can go deeper but i will leave it their. Stop throwing stones as you are likely to get a brick back in your face.
I have yet to meet a Chinese soul that sings and dances and praises India - perhaps in a parallel universe but not on this earth.

India is supposedly going to throw the world famous "i will be ready 10 years ago" Rafale into a border dispute that according to most Indians has already been resolved and China have moved back. If that was the case why the rush to put a plane that hasn't been put through the vibrant tests any sane air force would put through? This could be more humiliating news for an air force that gives out colored medals to those that get shot down by the opposition. China need to put the kettle on and get ready to be told their tea is "fantashtic".

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## Jackdaws

Musings said:


> Here is an example of the low intellect wanting to troll but pretending to be civil.
> 
> @Mangus Ortus Novem - this is an example of what we have to factor into when discussing Indian interaction and keeping it civil.
> 
> Now lets tackle your post - Simple people? A nation that had extreme poverty 40 years ago is on the verge of being the next superpower - lift millions out of poverty and pretty much leading in everything in the world - yet you label over a billion people with the same label? Poor generalization.
> Begging for refuge? God sake man show some sense of decorum and stop throwing words that Indian are themselves world famous for. Why the hell Chinese be begging to get into a sh1thole like India where they may struggle to even feed themselves? I can go deeper but i will leave it their. Stop throwing stones as you are likely to get a brick back in your face.
> I have yet to meet a Chinese soul that sings and dances and praises India - perhaps in a parallel universe but not on this earth.
> 
> India is supposedly going to throw the world famous "i will be ready 10 years ago" Rafale into a border dispute that according to most Indians has already been resolved and China have moved back. If that was the case why the rush to put a plane that hasn't been put through the vibrant tests any sane air force would put through? This could be more humiliating news for an air force that gives out colored medals to those that get shot down by the opposition. China need to put the kettle on and get ready to be told their tea is "fantashtic".


That's a long rant. We give refuge to 100,000 Chinese citizens who have begged us for refuge.

They are simple people because they don't ever fight for their rights. They accepted the Emperors, the Japanese, the Communists as rulers and say whatever their current rulers say.

The rest of your rant is not worthy of a response because you are just doing it to prove your loyalty to the Chinese. I am sure even you aren't that ignorant.

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## newb3e

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> @Musings @masterchief_mirza @DESERT FIGHTER @Areesh @SIPRA @serenity @vi-va @IblinI @FOOLS_NIGHTMARE @Ace of Spades @Mentee @_NOBODY_ @StormBreaker @newb3e @Feng Leng @Pangu
> 
> _Well, well, well..._
> 
> Modi said after *Operation Swift Retort*: _If there was Raphaeel then India wouldn't had to see this day!_
> 
> From *Raptor-of-the-East* to the *Dogger-of-the-East *now the *Bestest Fighter in OurGalaxy with Meteor* ... *India has NO MORE Excuses!*
> 
> Deployment is *IndianOccupied **Ladakh *is 'Strong Message' ... *how exactly?*
> 
> The only thing missing is the *IndianName for Rafale* that the good Indians haven't come up with for this fighter!
> 
> Surely, *Indianness *will give Rafale a 'befitting' name...



they will come with another excuse and bakhts will defend it by providing bs "make in india" logic shameless creatures! 

first they thumped their boobies that chahbar is exempt from US sanction and Maha Bharat has independent foreign policy and works for her benifit and continue trading with Iran but chahabar stalled they are thrown out of Iran!

then they claimed no Chinese intrusion into Laddakh but as per their own media sources china now claims more land than 1960 LAc agreement!!

kuttay hain laathi maro phir bhi dum hilaye gay!



Jackdaws said:


> Lol. Do you know the difference between expats and refugees?
> 
> Expats are generally highly paid executives who do jobs because of dearth of talent / skill in a country.
> Refugees are generally people who are persecuted and beg to be let in. Like about 100k Chinese citizens living in India after begging to be let in.


as modi g saygsss 

Bakht bano delusional chot** nai!

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## Figaro

Jackdaws said:


> That's a long rant. We give refuge to 100,000 Chinese citizens who have begged us for refuge.


Just say ethnic Tibetans ... or Chinese citizens of Tibetan origin. You are confusing everyone by saying normal Chinese citizens, who I doubt would ever want to go to India.



Jackdaws said:


> Lol. Do you know the difference between expats and refugees?
> 
> Expats are generally highly paid executives who do jobs because of dearth of talent / skill in a country.
> Refugees are generally people who are persecuted and beg to be let in. Like about 100k Chinese citizens living in India after begging to be let in.


As I mentioned above, please clarify your statement so we know you're talking about ethnic Tibetans going to India in the aftermath of 1959.

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## serenity

Nah I really want to visit India and escape Communism. India is paradise. More freedoms and no CCP propaganda. Just civilized people calmly discussing national affairs and doing their day to day things. Unlike China where we are all forced to build Uighur prisons as forced labor. So terrible. Must escape to India the dream country.


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## Taimoor Khan

serenity said:


> The dothead calling other people little. LOL



Enjoy 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6161691.stm


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## Jackdaws

newb3e said:


> they will come with another excuse and bakhts will defend it by providing bs "make in india" logic shameless creatures!
> 
> first they thumped their boobies that chahbar is exempt from US sanction and Maha Bharat has independent foreign policy and works for her benifit and continue trading with Iran but chahabar stalled they are thrown out of Iran!
> 
> then they claimed no Chinese intrusion into Laddakh but as per their own media sources china now claims more land than 1960 LAc agreement!!
> 
> kuttay hain laathi maro phir bhi dum hilaye gay!
> 
> 
> as modi g saygsss
> 
> Bakht bano delusional chot** nai!


You can follow his speeches as much as like


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## Crystal-Clear

Tumba said:


> India already butchered double number of ur chinese bosses and Han King Xi not even giving thr decent burial as per han ways lol
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-for-soldiers-killed-in-india-skirmish-source
> 
> “THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in a violent border clash with India in June not to conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies in an attempt to cover up an episode that Beijing appears to consider a blunder, according to a U.S. intelligence assessment.”
> 
> Typical from han tyrant king xi
> 
> “China still has not confirmed how many of its soldiers died as a result of the clash, though U.S. News previously reported that American intelligence believes 35 perished, along with at least 20 among the Indian military.”
> 
> Here latest report again says 35... I believe Indian source 40 heads crushed of han soldiers.
> 
> and fyi IA captured same rank and number of Pla soldiers ...


lol yeah and western media is your source while your military who was there failed to gave a single proof of 43 killing .
.
.
why its always india who endsup with no proofs of their claim . 
.
either its fake 2016 surgical strike (no proofs)
.
fake claim of downing an F-16 . (no proofs)
.
fake claim of killing 43 Chinese soldiers . (still no proofs)
.
.
why its always india ?

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## Jackdaws

Figaro said:


> Just say ethnic Tibetans ... or Chinese citizens of Tibetan origin. You are confusing everyone by saying normal Chinese citizens, who I doubt would ever want to go to India.
> 
> 
> As I mentioned above, please clarify your statement so we know you're talking about ethnic Tibetans going to India in the aftermath of 1959.


Chinese citizens are Chinese citizens - their ethnicity is of little consequence to us. There is no confusion.



serenity said:


> Nah I really want to visit India and escape Communism. India is paradise. More freedoms and no CCP propaganda. Just civilized people calmly discussing national affairs and doing their day to day things. Unlike China where we are all forced to build Uighur prisons as forced labor. So terrible. Must escape to India the dream country.


Get in line and wait your turn. I shall pray the Chinese don't shoot you when you are trying to escape as was the case with these Chinese women and kids -







Crystal-Clear said:


> lol yeah and western media is your source while your military who was there failed to gave a single proof of 43 killing .
> .
> .
> why its always india who endsup with no proofs of their claim .
> .
> either its fake 2016 surgical strike (no proofs)
> .
> fake claim of downing an F-16 . (no proofs)
> .
> fake claim of killing 43 Chinese soldiers . (still no proofs)
> .
> .
> why its always india ?


Lol. And what proof has China given of any killing? 

The Indian media giving proof of dead Indians is acceptable. But not of dead Chinese?


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## Secular

Action speaks louder than words
- For Indians
- From Indian


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## Crystal-Clear

Jackdaws said:


> Chinese citizens are Chinese citizens - their ethnicity is of little consequence to us. There is no confusion.
> 
> 
> Get in line and wait your turn. I shall pray the Chinese don't shoot you when you are trying to escape as was the case with these Chinese women and kids -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lol. And what proof has China given of any killing?
> 
> The Indian media giving proof of dead Indians is acceptable. But not of dead Chinese?


do they have to give proofs when indian them self accept the casualties?


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## drunken-monke

Crystal-Clear said:


> lol yeah and western media is your source while your military who was there failed to gave a single proof of 43 killing .
> .
> .
> why its always india who endsup with no proofs of their claim .
> .
> either its fake 2016 surgical strike (no proofs)
> .
> fake claim of downing an F-16 . (no proofs)
> .
> fake claim of killing 43 Chinese soldiers . (still no proofs)
> .
> .
> why its always india ?


Well for Pakistan;

1. We are winning war with India - 1971- Oops we lost Bangladesh..
2. We are occupying Siachin - Oops we lost to India
3. Our soldiers are not involved in Kargil and we deny military honors to fallen (brave) soldiers - Oops we accept that soldiers were from NLI after a decade.
4. 2008 Mumbai attack is insider job - Oops Pakistani Central government minister accepts the Pakistani involvement and recognizes Kasab.
5. Surgical strikes - Ooops after few years
6. Balakote strikes - Oops after few years
7. F16 downing - Oops after few years.

Why Pakistan ends up with embarrassment after few years??

Dear @LeGenD , I apologies for trolling, however can't bear the $ht by members here.

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## Jackdaws

Crystal-Clear said:


> do they have to give proofs when indian them self accept the casualties?


Not accept. Indian media is the one who stated the numbers in the first place. China has only accepted that Chinese soldiers died. It is free to put out numbers if it likes.


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## serenity

I am waiting in line to become Chinese refugee of India. The greatest country of freedom and loveliness in the entire Earth. Jai Hind!  I cannot wait until I can pull my pants down and shit on India's great streets. The smell will be the smell of freedom from CCP. Cannot wait to participate in Indians greatest sport, gang rape.

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## LeGenD

serenity said:


> I am waiting in line to become Chinese refugee of India. The greatest country of freedom and loveliness in the entire Earth. Jai Hind!  I cannot wait until I can pull my pants down and shit on India's great streets. The smell will be the smell of freedom from CCP. Cannot wait to participate in Indians greatest sport, gang rape.


Oh dear... it came down to this after your exchanges with Indian members?

Prioritize your inner peace and well-being, friend. 

Perhaps I should issue a CAUTION tag for those who are debating with Indian members. Some thing on these lines: "You are responsible for what becomes of your mental situation in this incredibly turbulent ride. User Caution advised."

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## Jackdaws

drunken-monke said:


> Well for Pakistan;
> 
> 1. We are winning war with India - 1971- Oops we lost Bangladesh..
> 2. We are occupying Siachin - Oops we lost to India
> 3. Our soldiers are not involved in Kargil and we deny military honors to fallen (brave) soldiers - Oops we accept that soldiers were from NLI after a decade.
> 4. 2008 Mumbai attack is insider job - Oops Pakistani Central government minister accepts the Pakistani involvement and recognizes Kasab.
> 5. Surgical strikes - Ooops after few years
> 6. Balakote strikes - Oops after few years
> 7. F16 downing - Oops after few years.
> 
> Why Pakistan ends up with embarrassment after few years??
> 
> Dear @LeGenD , I apologies for trolling, however can't bear the $ht by members here.


Even as an Indian i want more proof of 2016 "surgical strikes". That's the only red herring. Even they acknowledge India did Balakot. India has given more proof of F16 than Pak has given of taking down Sukhoi. But Pak is happy to believe the latter, while refuting the former.


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## Crystal-Clear

Jackdaws said:


> Not accept. Indian media is the one who stated the numbers in the first place. China has only accepted that Chinese soldiers died. It is free to put out numbers if it likes.


still you came up with the figure of 43 you show the proofs . .
.
.
its a face saving figure indeed . just like shooting down an F-16 with no proofs to support ur claim .


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## Jackdaws

Crystal-Clear said:


> still you came up with the figure of 43 you show the proofs . .
> .
> .
> its a face saving figure indeed . just like shooting down an F-16 with no proofs to support ur claim .


Once you show the proof of shooting down the Sukhoi, don't forget to tag me.


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## Crystal-Clear

drunken-monke said:


> Well for Pakistan;
> 
> 1. We are winning war with India - 1971- Oops we lost Bangladesh..
> 2. We are occupying Siachin - Oops we lost to India
> 3. Our soldiers are not involved in Kargil and we deny military honors to fallen (brave) soldiers - Oops we accept that soldiers were from NLI after a decade.
> 4. 2008 Mumbai attack is insider job - Oops Pakistani Central government minister accepts the Pakistani involvement and recognizes Kasab.
> 5. Surgical strikes - Ooops after few years
> 6. Balakote strikes - Oops after few years
> 7. F16 downing - Oops after few years.
> 
> Why Pakistan ends up with embarrassment after few years??
> 
> Dear @LeGenD , I apologies for trolling, however can't bear the $ht by members here.


sahi bata that fake F-16 downing claim triggered you naa ? .
.
.
43 hahahaha. 
.
phir wahi baat yaad agai . 
.
dandoo se mara .
mukkey sey mara.
latoo sey mara .
rod se mara .
lita lita k mara .
bhaga bhaga k mara .
kuttey ki trah mara . 
phir pahari sey nichey phenk diya.
.
.
hanuman senik pahari per pittey huey .

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## Amaa'n

If you guys are going to spam & troll the thread, then be the man & stop reporting each other posts.
Some of you troll each other & then report each other posts increasing load for mods.

If only one side decides to troll & other side reports, then be the man & accept the consequences for trolling when mods take action against you.

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## Crystal-Clear

Jackdaws said:


> Once you show the proof of shooting down the Sukhoi, don't forget to tag me.


i dont believe in that . thats is why most Pakistanis wont discuss its a lot because we dont have proofs of that . 
.
.
on the other hand the only face saving thing indians got on that humiliating day of 27 FEB is only the fake claim of downing an F-16 . (obviously no proofs again )


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## Khan vilatey

Jackdaws said:


> Even as an Indian i want more proof of 2016 "surgical strikes". That's the only red herring. Even they acknowledge India did Balakot. India has given more proof of F16 than Pak has given of taking down Sukhoi. But Pak is happy to believe the latter, while refuting the former.



Hold on, you did see the proof by PAF they released the video of striking Indian occupied territory in the day time . Where is the Indian proof? This is an open act of war against India after which the PAF proceeded to shoot two Indian aircraft. The Indians shot down a third aircraft of their own.

we came in the daytime and conducted air strikes on your territory why did IAF not retaliate? Why were the Indian armed forces so incapable of taking on a country with 
1/2 the size of the military
1/7 the size of defence budget and finally a country 1/5th India’s size?

kv

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## Beefeatergin

Jackdaws said:


> Once you show the proof of shooting down the Sukhoi, don't forget to tag me.


Oddly enough 2 mki pilots were killed in “accident” a short time later. Also 12 mkis were ordered to cover 11 crashes. Something smells like a curry conspiracy 
https://m.timesofindia.com/india/2-...side-awantipora-base/articleshow/68724410.cms

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## wasileo80

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> India does not have S-300s. It is China who has S-300 copies including HQ-9.
> 
> Also S-400 too cannot work against Rafale


If S-400 are using against India, It will not work. But if S-400 used by India, then it will create a no fly zone on Enemy land for enemy air forces .. I don't understand Indian logic.

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## Khan vilatey

Jackdaws said:


> Once you show the proof of shooting down the Sukhoi, don't forget to tag me.




Lol so the big story was that Pakistan Air Force conducted air strikes in Indian occupied Kashmir and shot down Two IAF aircraft. Why did IAF not defend their airspace, why did they not retaliate to an act of war by the Pakistanis. This proves that Kashmir is not part of India and it is disputed territory hence no retaliation .the current Indian legislature has no relevance as laws passed by them have no value. Kashmir will become Pakistan inshallah 

KV

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## Jackdaws

Crystal-Clear said:


> i dont believe in that . thats is why most Pakistanis wont discuss its a lot because we dont have proofs of that .
> .
> .
> on the other hand the only face saving thing indians got on that humiliating day of 27 FEB is only the fake claim of downing an F-16 . (obviously no proofs again )


Lol. What face saving? Abhinandan was alert and did his job. Something your pilots didn't do the previous day Forget entering Indian territory, they gave a free pass in their own territory. Not just in the Kashmir that both sides claim - India entered into undisputed territory of KPK - unchallenged. If you are proud of that, I don't know what to say.



Khan vilatey said:


> Lol so the big story was that Pakistan Air Force conducted air strikes in Indian occupied Kashmir and shot down Two IAF aircraft. Why did IAF not defend their airspace, why did they not retaliate to an act of war by the Pakistanis. This proves that Kashmir is not part of India and it is disputed territory hence no retaliation .the current Indian legislature has no relevance as laws passed by them have no value. Kashmir will become Pakistan inshallah
> 
> KV


I am sure deep down you must truly believe this fairytale.



Khan vilatey said:


> Hold on, you did see the proof by PAF they released the video of striking Indian occupied territory in the day time . Where is the Indian proof? This is an open act of war against India after which the PAF proceeded to shoot two Indian aircraft. The Indians shot down a third aircraft of their own.
> 
> we came in the daytime and conducted air strikes on your territory why did IAF not retaliate? Why were the Indian armed forces so incapable of taking on a country with
> 1/2 the size of the military
> 1/7 the size of defence budget and finally a country 1/5th India’s size?
> 
> kv


What exactly did they hit? Even Pak claimed they did not hit anything.


----------



## newb3e

Jackdaws said:


> You can follow his speeches as much as like


i follow his genius followers always educating us with "Make in India" facts and i wonder sometimes if that was the whole idea of Siri Modi g "Make in india" plan make lies make bs fact tames the bakhts!

wah g wah Genius hai Modi g



serenity said:


> Nah I really want to visit India and escape Communism. India is paradise. More freedoms and no CCP propaganda. Just civilized people calmly discussing national affairs and doing their day to day things. Unlike China where we are all forced to build Uighur prisons as forced labor. So terrible. Must escape to India the dream country.


train your squat and your nose you might be given a job along with billions to fertilize Great India every morning!

Modi gs vision enjoy the nature while you fertilize the nature!

GENIUS!!!



Jackdaws said:


> Lol. What face saving? Abhinandan was alert and did his job. Something your pilots didn't do the previous day Forget entering Indian territory, they gave a free pass in their own territory. Not just in the Kashmir that both sides claim - India entered into undisputed territory of KPK - unchallenged. If you are proud of that, I don't know what to say.



just say WAH MODI G WAH!!! WAHHHH!!!!!


----------



## Crystal-Clear

Jackdaws said:


> Lol. What face saving? Abhinandan was alert and did his job. Something your pilots didn't do the previous day Forget entering Indian territory, they gave a free pass in their own territory. Not just in the Kashmir that both sides claim - India entered into undisputed territory of KPK - unchallenged. If you are proud of that, I don't know what to say.
> 
> 
> I am sure deep down you must truly believe this fairytale.
> 
> 
> What exactly did they hit? Even Pak claimed they did not hit anything.


exactly with what ? was he carrying a 5th missile in his pocket?

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## Jackdaws

newb3e said:


> i follow his genius followers always educating us with "Make in India" facts and i wonder sometimes if that was the whole idea of Siri Modi g "Make in india" plan make lies make bs fact tames the bakhts!
> 
> wah g wah Genius hai Modi g
> 
> 
> train your squat and your nose you might be given a job along with billions to fertilize Great India every morning!
> 
> Modi gs vision enjoy the nature while you fertilize the nature!
> 
> GENIUS!!!
> 
> 
> 
> just say WAH MODI G WAH!!! WAHHHH!!!!!


You are doing a good job. Didn't know they had closet Sanghis in Pak. But oh well.



Crystal-Clear said:


> exactly with what ? was he carrying a 5th missile in his pocket?
> View attachment 652629


Very conveniently not showing the Serial Number of the R73 which funnily can't be seen anywhere in the wreckage itself. Lol.


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## Arsalan 345

This fighter can do a lot of damage but numbers aren't enough.pla has different types of fighter jets that can detect and destroy rafale.rafale can cause havoc on ground.indian problem is the numbers of rafale. India don't have much time left because war with China is now inevitable.



Jackdaws said:


> You are doing a good job. Didn't know they had closet Sanghis in Pak. But oh well.
> 
> 
> Very conveniently not showing the Serial Number of the R73 which funnily can't be seen anywhere in the wreckage itself. Lol.



India didn't enter deep,only 5 to 6 kms before launching spice 2000. You turned cold before a possible air battle between two airforces. You didn't enter kpk. It's a lie.
Two su-30 pilots die in a road accidents just after feb27. What a coincidence. We aren't fools.


----------



## Crystal-Clear

Jackdaws said:


> Very conveniently not showing the Serial Number of the R73 which funnily can't be seen anywhere in the wreckage itself. Lol.


still ... you fail to show a single single single proof of your claim.

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## The Eagle

Jackdaws said:


> Very conveniently not showing the Serial Number of the R73 which funnily can't be seen anywhere in the wreckage itself. Lol.



Ask IAF to share the serial number of missile to shame & put them to dust. Please help everyone to get out of this torture i.e. "I will not agree not matter how much evidence you share". The ill fated MiG's log book will put everything to rest once for all, if there is any to share.

I don't know why but seems like internet denial has no bounds.



Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> *New Delhi (July 19): *The Indian Air Force is reportedly planning to deploy the first batch of Rafale fighter jets in the Ladakh sector soon after they arrive in India on July 27 to bolster India’s military position in the region amid ongoing border tension with China.
> 
> The possible deployment of the fighter jets in the Ladakh sector is also on the agenda of the IAF commanders’ three-day conference which will begin on Wednesday, PTI reported, citing military sources.
> 
> _During the key meet, senior commanders of the Indian Air Force will discuss in detail the country's air defence system and also carry out an in-depth review of it. The conference will commence from July 22 and will be headed by Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria and attended by all seven of his commanders-in-chief.
> 
> Indian and Chinese forces have been locked in a bitter border standoff in eastern Ladakh since early May this year. The two sides started the disengagement process earlier this month in the first step towards de-escalation of border tensions.
> 
> https://www.timesnownews.com/india/...genda-of-key-iaf-commanders-3-day-meet/623972_



Since you have answer for everything my good friend, can you define the time duration of "SOON" and what is the number to treat it as "First Batch"? I am asking for my own reasons that I can explain.


----------



## Khan vilatey

Jackdaws said:


> Lol. What face saving? Abhinandan was alert and did his job. Something your pilots didn't do the previous day Forget entering Indian territory, they gave a free pass in their own territory. Not just in the Kashmir that both sides claim - India entered into undisputed territory of KPK - unchallenged. If you are proud of that, I don't know what to say.
> 
> 
> I am sure deep down you must truly believe this fairytale.
> 
> 
> What exactly did they hit? Even Pak claimed they did not hit anything.



The video PAF released of Indian army brigade headquarter and how we missed it. It shows that PAF conducted air raids / real surgical strikes against 4 Indians targets in Indian occupied territory. 






why did the IAF not retaliate? Is Indian land not sacred to you? 
Looking forward to a similar video from the IAF on how they attacked the Pakistani target? There is no video as your pilots, when challenged jettisoned their ordinance and retreated.


----------



## Jackdaws

Crystal-Clear said:


> still ... you fail to show a single single single proof of your claim.


So do you.



Khan vilatey said:


> The video PAF released of Indian army brigade headquarter and how we missed it. It shows that PAF conducted air raids / real surgical strikes against 4 Indians targets in Indian occupied territory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> why did the IAF not retaliate? Is Indian land not sacred to you?
> Looking forward to a similar video from the IAF on how they attacked the Pakistani target? There is no video as your pilots, when challenged jettisoned their ordinance and retreated.


Lol. Sure, why don't they release the videos with the audio of the pilots? Did Indians scramble jets and you ran dropping your bombs?



The Eagle said:


> Ask IAF to share the serial number of missile to shame & put them to dust. Please help everyone to get out of this torture i.e. "I will not agree not matter how much evidence you share". The ill fated MiG's log book will put everything to rest once for all, if there is any to share.
> 
> I don't know why but seems like internet denial has no bounds.
> 
> 
> 
> Since you have answer for everything my good friend, can you define the time duration of "SOON" and what is the number to treat it as "First Batch"? I am asking for my own reasons that I can explain.


You claim to have the missile. Why not show its number?
_Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat_

If you make the claim the burden on proof is on you. 
You have so many hours of Abhinandan footage too. He didn't know what narrative was being released by India. You must be having some footage of him in interrogation saying he didn't shoot the missile or didn't take down an F16. Release it.


----------



## The Eagle

Jackdaws said:


> You claim to have the missile. Why not show its number?
> _Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat_
> 
> If you make the claim the burden on proof is on you.
> You have so many hours of Abhinandan footage too. He didn't know what narrative was being released by India. You must be having some footage of him in interrogation saying he didn't shoot the missile or didn't take down an F16. Release it.



Oh man.... defendant can save a lot of time but seems like, India is nowhere found to deny accusation but wants to keep up with current status quo of online anonymous declines. 

Abhinandan has already said that he was looking for a target and was shot down. All the missiles found as it is, shown in picture. What's there for serial number or not. IAF believes in shooting down an F-16, which I am sure was the ill fated Chopper in IoK, should have claimed further with more evidence. Since IAF has nothing to claim in concrete as compare to PAF showing all the missiles; the onus is there for those who still denies. Not to mention that you are talking about a court proceeding in a battle field. In battlefield, the one is shot, captured, shown to the world with all his missiles & downed plane; is the one at loosing end. for IAF, show an F-16 or show a missile serial number that hit it at all or at-least show anything to prove on Int'l fora. 

What I said before, was a serious question man and that wasn't intended for more questions that doesn't matter.

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## alphapak

Jackdaws said:


> Once you show the proof of shooting down the Sukhoi, don't forget to tag me.



Ask your air force boys where they got the Amraam missile piece from?

Also let us know How Abhinandhan who didn't even know where he was,
shoot down a F16 without firing a missile? Or does the Miog21 squirt cow urine to
shoot down F16's?


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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

The Eagle said:


> can you define the time duration of "SOON" and what is the number to treat it as "First Batch"? I am asking for my own reasons that I can explain


Within a week after they arrive (July 28/29).
First batch will have 5-6 jets.



Arsalan 345 said:


> Two su-30 pilots die in a road accidents just after feb27


No such thing happened. An admin branch officer died.


----------



## The Eagle

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> Within a week after they arrive (July 28/29).
> First batch will have 5-6 jets.



Appreciated. Thanks

I am sure such deployment is for library writing. Or is it a direct operational duty?


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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

The Eagle said:


> is it a direct operational duty?


Fully operational duty.


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## The Eagle

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> No such thing happened. An admin branch officer died.



You mean this?

_Two officers of the Indian Air Force were killed and two others injured in a road accident in South Kashmir’s Pulwama district.

*Officials said that among the dead was a squadron leader of the IAF.*

Officials said the accident took place between 3 and 4 am on Thursday morning when the Scorpio, in which the air force personnel were travelling in, met with an accident at the Malangpora village. The police got to know of the accident when the air force personnel informed them. The injured personnel are being treated at Army’s base hospital.

A senior police officer confirmed the accident and said that two personnel had been killed and two others were injured. *It’s not clear yet why the air force personnel were travelling in the wee hours.* The place where the accident took place is located near the air force station._

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## drumstick

serenity said:


> I am waiting in line to become Chinese refugee of India. The greatest country of freedom and loveliness in the entire Earth. Jai Hind!  I cannot wait until I can pull my pants down and shit on India's great streets. The smell will be the smell of freedom from CCP. Cannot wait to participate in Indians greatest sport, gang rape.



dear oh dear... you have really gone to gutters... just goes to show how frustrated these chinese actually are.... cant win a war in battlefield cant win on pdf... now where to go??


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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

The Eagle said:


> You mean this?
> 
> _Two officers of the Indian Air Force were killed and two others injured in a road accident in South Kashmir’s Pulwama district.
> 
> *Officials said that among the dead was a squadron leader of the IAF.*
> 
> Officials said the accident took place between 3 and 4 am on Thursday morning when the Scorpio, in which the air force personnel were travelling in, met with an accident at the Malangpora village. The police got to know of the accident when the air force personnel informed them. The injured personnel are being treated at Army’s base hospital.
> 
> A senior police officer confirmed the accident and said that two personnel had been killed and two others were injured. *It’s not clear yet why the air force personnel were travelling in the wee hours.* The place where the accident took place is located near the air force station._


Yes. Sqn Ldr RK Pandey:


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## drumstick

drunken-monke said:


> Well for Pakistan;
> 
> 1. We are winning war with India - 1971- Oops we lost Bangladesh..
> 2. We are occupying Siachin - Oops we lost to India
> 3. Our soldiers are not involved in Kargil and we deny military honors to fallen (brave) soldiers - Oops we accept that soldiers were from NLI after a decade.
> 4. 2008 Mumbai attack is insider job - Oops Pakistani Central government minister accepts the Pakistani involvement and recognizes Kasab.
> 5. Surgical strikes - Ooops after few years
> 6. Balakote strikes - Oops after few years
> 7. F16 downing - Oops after few years.
> 
> Why Pakistan ends up with embarrassment after few years??
> 
> Dear @LeGenD , I apologies for trolling, however can't bear the $ht by members here.


well said sir... very well said... 

1967 - oops we lost in Nathu La
1975 - oops we lost Sikkim
1979 - oops we lost in Vietnam
1986 - oops we lost Arunachal Pradesh
2017 - oops we lost in Doklam
2020 - oops we got badly beaten in Galwan and Laddhakh and we retreated ....
2020 continued -- oops we are being beaten on pdf

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## PakSword

The Eagle said:


> You mean this?
> 
> _Two officers of the Indian Air Force were killed and two others injured in a road accident in South Kashmir’s Pulwama district.
> 
> *Officials said that among the dead was a squadron leader of the IAF.*
> 
> Officials said the accident took place between 3 and 4 am on Thursday morning when the Scorpio, in which the air force personnel were travelling in, met with an accident at the Malangpora village. The police got to know of the accident when the air force personnel informed them. The injured personnel are being treated at Army’s base hospital.
> 
> A senior police officer confirmed the accident and said that two personnel had been killed and two others were injured. *It’s not clear yet why the air force personnel were travelling in the wee hours.* The place where the accident took place is located near the air force station._



Indians believed all the theories of F-16 pilot, picked names from internet (Shahzazuddin) and rejoiced. Imagine if a F-16 pilot had actually died in an accident a few days after 27th Feb.

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## truthseeker2010

an advise (although highly unlikely) to indians, make french pilots fly the rafale in combat in case of skrimish with PLAAF, because thats the only way rafale will able to make an impact in battle if any.


----------



## Jackdaws

The Eagle said:


> Oh man.... defendant can save a lot of time but seems like, India is nowhere found to deny accusation but wants to keep up with current status quo of online anonymous declines.
> 
> Abhinandan has already said that he was looking for a target and was shot down. All the missiles found as it is, shown in picture. What's there for serial number or not. IAF believes in shooting down an F-16, which I am sure was the ill fated Chopper in IoK, should have claimed further with more evidence. Since IAF has nothing to claim in concrete as compare to PAF showing all the missiles; the onus is there for those who still denies. Not to mention that you are talking about a court proceeding in a battle field. In battlefield, the one is shot, captured, shown to the world with all his missiles & downed plane; is the one at loosing end. for IAF, show an F-16 or show a missile serial number that hit it at all or at-least show anything to prove on Int'l fora.
> 
> What I said before, was a serious question man and that wasn't intended for more questions that doesn't matter.


It's fairly simple. It wasn't the Battle of Britain being fought over the English Channel with dozens of planes. It was a pretty small skirmish. For Pakistan to initially claim there are 3 pilots, then claim 2 pilots and finally say only 1. India could have denied that they shot down own chopper. That is an actual failure and embarrassment. It owned up.

Facts will eventually come out. Till then, we will believe the narratives of our nations as that's natural. I don't buy 300 dead in Balakot. And Modi marketing of "surgical strike" in 2016 is also doubtful. But it's not as if Pakistan has a great track record of honesty either. History and time will eventually vindicate one narrative. Till then, enjoy the barbs online.

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## drumstick

Jackdaws said:


> It's fairly simple. It wasn't the Battle of Britain being fought over the English Channel with dozens of planes. It was a pretty small skirmish. For Pakistan to initially claim there are 3 pilots, then claim 2 pilots and finally say only 1. India could have denied that they shot down own chopper. That is an actual failure and embarrassment. It owned up.
> 
> Facts will eventually come out. Till then, we will believe the narratives of our nations as that's natural. I don't buy 300 dead in Balakot. And Modi marketing of "surgical strike" in 2016 is also doubtful. But it's not as if Pakistan has a great track record of honesty either. History and time will eventually vindicate one narrative. Till then, enjoy the barbs online.



what about grainy photo of R73 coming out of pakistan? we are in an age where cheapest mobile have double digit pixel capacity and here we have pak army with photo from 1940's ... this may be one of the most important point to talk.... also,
1. three / two pilots theory, ispr and pm ik said the same thing... all the locals and i mean ALL the locals were caught saying two pilots.... this was clincher actually
2. irrefutable radar evidence.... 
3. chatter intercepted from pakistan airspace on the morning of 27th feb

but above all, the events of 26th feb were more significant...missiles hit its target...and the spice missiles were designed to hit the target with a hole in roof and damaging the building from inside not outside... this was chosen deliberately so there is no hue and cry on civilian casualties... and it worked in our favor... pakistan never got any sympathy from world even when they played victim card repeatedly....
and the targets were inside pakistan just goes to show what we can do.... all your radars, SAMS and CAP's caught napping .... this was a body blow to any nation. 

just to stretch his one more min, night of 26th Feb and 26th Feb there was a tweet from paf that sleep tight pakistan because paf is awake.... cant be a bigger facepalm moment than this.... 

what was retaliation the next day? dropping bombs which did not explode from a stand off distance? come on... when we breached LoC and IB you should have done the same to match... how its a equal response when your weapons were fired from your own airspace?

above all it took pakistan 11 years to accept your involvement in Kargill war.... we know how it goes....blatant refusal to begin with and then gradual acceptance after long time....Mumbai attack is also a prime example....
its just a year and half... we have long time to go...

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## PakSword

Jackdaws said:


> Till then, we will believe the narratives of our nations as that's natural.





Jackdaws said:


> I don't buy 300 dead in Balakot. And Modi marketing of "surgical strike" in 2016 is also doubtful.



Don't you think above two statements are contradictory?



drumstick said:


> what about grainy photo of R73 coming out of pakistan? we are in an age where cheapest mobile have double digit pixel capacity and here we have pak army with photo from 1940's ... this may be one of the most important point to talk.... also,
> 1. three / two pilots theory, ispr and pm ik said the same thing... all the locals and i mean ALL the locals were caught saying two pilots.... this was clincher actually
> 2. irrefutable radar evidence....
> 3. chatter intercepted from pakistan airspace on the morning of 27th feb
> 
> but above all, the events of 26th feb were more significant...missiles hit its target...and the spice missiles were designed to hit the target with a hole in roof and damaging the building from inside not outside... this was chosen deliberately so there is no hue and cry on civilian casualties... and it worked in our favor... pakistan never got any sympathy from world even when they played victim card repeatedly....
> and the targets were inside pakistan just goes to show what we can do.... all your radars, SAMS and CAP's caught napping .... this was a body blow to any nation.
> 
> just to stretch his one more min, night of 26th Feb and 26th Feb there was a tweet from paf that sleep tight pakistan because paf is awake.... cant be a bigger facepalm moment than this....
> 
> what was retaliation the next day? dropping bombs which did not explode from a stand off distance? come on... when we breached LoC and IB you should have done the same to match... how its a equal response when your weapons were fired from your own airspace?
> 
> above all it took pakistan 11 years to accept your involvement in Kargill war.... we know how it goes....blatant refusal to begin with and then gradual acceptance after long time....Mumbai attack is also a prime example....
> its just a year and half... we have long time to go...



Stop watching Indian media. Search for the international sources. If not comfirmtable, listen to Christine Fair, who is pro Indian so that you find some courage to watch and listen to her.

Thanks.

BTW, all your "facts" have been debunked here, and by many international experts.

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## Jackdaws

drumstick said:


> what about grainy photo of R73 coming out of pakistan? we are in an age where cheapest mobile have double digit pixel capacity and here we have pak army with photo from 1940's ... this may be one of the most important point to talk.... also,
> 1. three / two pilots theory, ispr and pm ik said the same thing... all the locals and i mean ALL the locals were caught saying two pilots.... this was clincher actually
> 2. irrefutable radar evidence....
> 3. chatter intercepted from pakistan airspace on the morning of 27th feb
> 
> but above all, the events of 26th feb were more significant...missiles hit its target...and the spice missiles were designed to hit the target with a hole in roof and damaging the building from inside not outside... this was chosen deliberately so there is no hue and cry on civilian casualties... and it worked in our favor... pakistan never got any sympathy from world even when they played victim card repeatedly....
> and the targets were inside pakistan just goes to show what we can do.... all your radars, SAMS and CAP's caught napping .... this was a body blow to any nation.
> 
> just to stretch his one more min, night of 26th Feb and 26th Feb there was a tweet from paf that sleep tight pakistan because paf is awake.... cant be a bigger facepalm moment than this....
> 
> what was retaliation the next day? dropping bombs which did not explode from a stand off distance? come on... when we breached LoC and IB you should have done the same to match... how its a equal response when your weapons were fired from your own airspace?
> 
> above all it took pakistan 11 years to accept your involvement in Kargill war.... we know how it goes....blatant refusal to begin with and then gradual acceptance after long time....Mumbai attack is also a prime example....
> its just a year and half... we have long time to go...


Actually they accepted their involvement in Pak within a few months. 8 PoWs of theirs were hospitalized in Delhi and they flew them back.

But sides exaggerate their heroics and downplay their shortcomings. First time I met a Pakistani in the US, he was as shocked as I was when it the narratives of the entire war of 1965 were completely different. He was convinced Pak won that war. I was convinced India did. Truth was it was pretty much a military stalemate. If an entire war can have such divergent narratives, I am not shocked that one minor skirmish does too.



PakSword said:


> Don't you think above two statements are contradictory?
> 
> 
> 
> Stop watching Indian media. Search for the international sources. If not comfirmtable, listen to Christine Fair, who is pro Indian so that you find some courage to watch and listen to her.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> BTW, all your "facts" have been debunked here, and by many international experts.



Yes. Let me explain. I don't buy what the Modi Govt explains and sells to its daft supporters. I tend to believe the military narrative more because they themselves know that one day the Govt will change. If you notice, the Air Force blatantly refused to say 300 dead or give a number.

Bhakts on the other hand -


----------



## HalfMoon

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> India does not have S-300s. It is China who has S-300 copies including HQ-9.
> 
> Also S-400 too cannot work against Rafale



India does have S-300s.


----------



## drumstick

PakSword said:


> Don't you think above two statements are contradictory?
> Stop watching Indian media.


Nothing ins from Indian media..... if you see pakistani news anchors going to villages near LoC after 27th Feb incident you will hear many people getting interviewed and telling that they saw 2 parachutes....

how can any Indian media can go to other side of LoC?

moreover, first ispr takes a PC and tells everyone that there are two pilots in custody one is admitted to militery hospital and other is their custody.... if Abhi was one who was other?

Then your pm ik says same thing on national TV, these folks must be questioned first.... this is not counting of millions to get one error.... its either one or two... 



PakSword said:


> Search for the international sources. If not comfirmtable, listen to Christine Fair, who is pro Indian so that you find some courage to watch and listen to her.


I consider pakistani news channels and international media 



PakSword said:


> Thanks.


thanks to you sir



PakSword said:


> BTW, all your "facts" have been debunked here, and by many international experts.


then those theories are wrong... with all due respect sir....

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## sms

drumstick said:


> what about grainy photo of R73 coming out of pakistan? we are in an age where cheapest mobile have double digit pixel capacity and here we have pak army with photo from 1940's ... this may be one of the most important point to talk.... also,
> 1. three / two pilots theory, ispr and pm ik said the same thing... all the locals and i mean ALL the locals were caught saying two pilots.... this was clincher actually
> 2. irrefutable radar evidence....
> 3. chatter intercepted from pakistan airspace on the morning of 27th feb
> 
> but above all, the events of 26th feb were more significant...missiles hit its target...and the spice missiles were designed to hit the target with a hole in roof and damaging the building from inside not outside... this was chosen deliberately so there is no hue and cry on civilian casualties... and it worked in our favor... pakistan never got any sympathy from world even when they played victim card repeatedly....
> and the targets were inside pakistan just goes to show what we can do.... all your radars, SAMS and CAP's caught napping .... this was a body blow to any nation.
> 
> just to stretch his one more min, night of 26th Feb and 26th Feb there was a tweet from paf that sleep tight pakistan because paf is awake.... cant be a bigger facepalm moment than this....
> 
> what was retaliation the next day? dropping bombs which did not explode from a stand off distance? come on... when we breached LoC and IB you should have done the same to match... how its a equal response when your weapons were fired from your own airspace?
> 
> above all it took pakistan 11 years to accept your involvement in Kargill war.... we know how it goes....blatant refusal to begin with and then gradual acceptance after long time....Mumbai attack is also a prime example....
> its just a year and half... we have long time to go...



Their pilot was killed in action or worst killed by people on ground.
It's clear that they lost F16 and living up to their reputation of lying an deceit.

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## Crystal-Clear

Jackdaws said:


> So do you.


really?


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## Khan vilatey

alphapak said:


> Ask your air force boys where they got the Amraam missile piece from?
> 
> Also let us know How Abhinandhan who didn't even know where he was,
> shoot down a F16 without firing a missile? Or does the Miog21 squirt cow urine to
> shoot down F16's?



we agreed we will not use religious indiando or not make fun of anyone’s religion. 

kv


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## kingQamaR

drumstick said:


> well said sir... very well said...
> 
> 1967 - oops we lost in Nathu La
> 1975 - oops we lost Sikkim
> 1979 - oops we lost in Vietnam
> 1986 - oops we lost Arunachal Pradesh
> 2017 - oops we lost in Doklam
> 2020 - oops we got badly beaten in Galwan and Laddhakh and we retreated ....
> 2020 continued -- oops we are being beaten on pdf



you indians waste so much of your little energy in you online !!! 

shouldn’t the above defeats then give you indians some courage to do some thing back to them 

40 dead Indians. Dozens we’re caught in utter loss by the PLA. locals confirming deep China gains in these areas. China quietly happy no talks not a good sign of a defeated side. All you and your compatriots are doing is flooding nothing worthwhile just your own Imagination

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## sms

Crystal-Clear said:


> really?
> View attachment 652906


Where is the second Pilot captured by PA?


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## Crystal-Clear

sms said:


> Their pilot was killed in action or worst killed by people on ground.
> It's clear that they lost F16 and living up to their reputation of lying an deceit.


so indian trust american sources when they says that pla soldiers were killed but they dont truat american sources when they says that no F-16 was shot down.


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## Ultima Thule

sms said:


> Their pilot was killed in action or worst killed by people on ground.
> It's clear that they lost F16 and living up to their reputation of lying an deceit.


And how about you MKI you're lying too, he is receiving to much information from different sources so it had been mistake, and remember Pentagon/LockHeed Martin personal at the bases of Pakistan where Pakistani F-16 are situated and confirmed NO PAKISTANI F-16 WERE MISSING


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## sms

Crystal-Clear said:


> so indian trust american sources when they says that pla soldiers were killed but they dont truat american sources when they says that no F-16 was shot down.


It's not American source, but your PA and PM' statement that that three planes down, two pilot captured. Where is second person captured?


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## Crystal-Clear

sms said:


> Where is the second captured Pilot?


there wasnt any . he cleared that in his later tweets .
.
.
it was ahuman error he accept it . move on . show us the proofs if you have any .

for your info (as indian dont know how an actual proof looks like ) . in a skirmish proofs usually looks like this.





.

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## sms

Ultima Thule said:


> And how about you MKI you're lying too, he is receiving to much information from different sources so it had been mistake, and remember Pentagon/LockHeed Martin personal at the bases of Pakistan where Pakistani F-16 are situated and confirmed NO PAKISTANI F-16 WERE MISSING


So, second pilot was assumed Indian and killed by PA or locals. RIP
It's rare t happen in Pakistan, but we all hope he got proper burial and recognition for lying his life in line of duty.



Crystal-Clear said:


> there wasnt any . he cleared that in his later tweets .
> .
> .
> it was ahuman error he accept it . move on . show us the proofs if you have any .
> 
> for your info (as indian dont know how an actual proof looks like ) . in a skirmish proofs usually looks like this.
> View attachment 652907
> 
> .
> View attachment 652908


so convenient to say move one when facts are against you. 

Let's look at facts..

Pakistan said three aircraft downed = IAF said three air craft down
Mig21- Air craft #1 PA and IAF both said Mig 21 down - confirmed
MI-17 - PA said one downed in India not by them , IAF confirmed crash of a helicopter
F16 - IAF said they shot F16, empirical evidence available and shared. PA said aircraft shot and downed and pilot in custody in hospital. Later no second pilot no second aircraft shot 
It's evident and clear who is lying. 
Please hear message from PM (so thoughtful of him) hope that will instill some wisdom ..


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## PakSword

sms said:


> Where is the second Pilot captured by PA?


He later clarified and this has been discussed so many times. 

Moreover, reputed and respected international reporters who were aware of the Pakistani F-16s and the process of counting and reporting them back told the world (including Indians) that all Pakistani F-16s were accounted for. 

Later, Indians claimed that they didn't count Jordanian F-16s, a theory again later debunked by the same reporter. 

Christine Fair, a lady who is extremely anti Pakistan didn't tow your line. She clearly said that as much as she wanted that Indians had shot down a Pakistani jet, they didn't. She even trolled your "Ex-Brigade Major" in the same program and continued to troll other Indians on social media.

You guys need to convince your pro Indian international defense journalists first before claiming anything on PDF.

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## alphapak

watch this clip from 9.40





Alan warnes confirming Abhinanadhan did not fire a missile.

Abhinandhan didi not have a clue where he was nevermind
fire a missile.

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## Crystal-Clear

sms said:


> So, second pilot was assumed Indian and killed by PA or locals. RIP
> It's rare t happen in Pakistan, but we all hope he got proper burial and recognition for lying his life in line of duty.
> 
> 
> so convenient to say move one when facts are against you.
> 
> Let's look at facts..
> 
> Pakistan said three aircraft downed = IAF said three air craft down
> Mig21- Air craft #1 PA and IAF both said Mig 21 down - confirmed
> MI-17 - PA said one downed in India not by them , IAF confirmed crash of a helicopter
> F16 - IAF said they shot F16, empirical evidence available and shared. PA said aircraft shot and downed and pilot in custody in hospital. Later no second pilot no second aircraft shot
> It's evident and clear who is lying.
> Please hear message from PM (so thoughtful of him) hope that will instill some wisdom ..


haha as i said it was a human error which he accepted later . same as shooting down a mi-17 was a human error .
.
.
the point is india didnt show a single proof .
thats not the only case here .
.
2016 fake surgical strike . no proofs .
.
27 Feb fake downing of F-16 . no proofs .
.
15 june fake claim of killing 43 Chinese soldiers . still no proofs .
.
in recent 3 incidents why its always india who endsup with noo proofs ?
.
there is one more thing here in all these three incident bjp had to give a face saving fake claims to survive politically . as rahul gandhi hinted today .
.
one more question which you for sure wont answer . 
why indian military didnt let media to visit the place which PAF Bombed?


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## PakSword

drumstick said:


> then those theories are wrong... with all due respect sir....


Which theories?

I am again asking you, disconnect yourself from Indian media for sometime and read some credible reports from international journalists. You will find plenty of sources to know that:

- You didn't hit a single building on 26th of Feb. 
- You couldn't hit a single Pakistani jet.

Being neutral, they are even not accepting Pakistani narrative that Pak jets shot down a Su 30. 

And ask question why your government/ military never showed you the places where "Pakistani bombs didn't detonate" or why they didn't show undetonated Pakistani SOWs to the media.. Even after a year, they didn't gather courage to show any one of the multiple places hit..  

Reality is different than what you hear on Indian media.


----------



## sms

PakSword said:


> He later clarified and this has been discussed so many times.
> 
> Moreover, reputed and respected international reporters who were aware of the Pakistani F-16s and the process of counting and reporting them back told the world (including Indians) that all Pakistani F-16s were accounted for.
> 
> Later, Indians claimed that they didn't count Jordanian F-16s, a theory again later debunked by the same reporter.
> 
> Christine Fair, a lady who is extremely anti Pakistan didn't tow your line. She clearly said that as much as she wanted that Indians had shot down a Pakistani jet, they didn't. She even trolled your "Ex-Brigade Major" in the same program and continued to troll other Indians on social media.
> 
> You guys need to convince your pro Indian international defense journalists first before claiming anything on PDF.



Nah, no need to convince any one. Truth will come to light one day.



Crystal-Clear said:


> haha as i said it was a human error which he accepted later . same as shooting down an mi-17 was a human error .
> .
> .
> the point is india didnt show a single proof .
> thats not the only case here .
> .
> 2016 fake surgical strike . no proofs .
> .
> 27 Feb fake downing of F-16 . no proofs .
> .
> 15 june fake claim of killing 43 Chinese soldiers . still no proofs .
> .
> in recent 3 incidents why its always india who endsup with noo proofs ?
> .
> there is ne more thing here in all these three incident bjp had to give a face saving fake claims to survive politically . as rahul gandhi hinted today .



Calling Modi Govt and media liar does not make you saint and please do not bring Rahul Gandhi in to discussion, less said is better.

Let's agree to disagree, I'll believe IAF and you can trust narrative paddled by your media and Govt.


----------



## PakSword

Crystal-Clear said:


> haha as i said it was a human error which he accepted later . same as shooting down a mi-17 was a human error .
> .
> .
> the point is india didnt show a single proof .
> thats not the only case here .
> .
> 2016 fake surgical strike . no proofs .
> .
> 27 Feb fake downing of F-16 . no proofs .
> .
> 15 june fake claim of killing 43 Chinese soldiers . still no proofs .
> .
> in recent 3 incidents why its always india who endsup with noo proofs ?
> .
> there is one more thing here in all these three incident bjp had to give a face saving fake claims to survive politically . as rahul gandhi hinted today .



These delusional Indians are so naive that they criticized Pakistan to take the international media a month later to the location that IAF claimed it hit, but never ask their own government to take even local journalists to the places that PAF hit. lol

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## Crystal-Clear

sms said:


> Calling Modi Govt and media liar does not make you saint and please do not bring Rahul Gandhi in to discussion, less said is better.
> 
> Let's agree to disagree, I'll believe IAF and you can trust narrative paddled by your media and Govt.


one more question which you for sure wont answer .
why indian military didnt let media to visit the place which PAF Bombed . why?
.
media were there when pathankot happen they were there when uri happen but no media were allowed to film the location PAF bombed?



PakSword said:


> These delusional Indians are so naive that they criticized Pakistan to take the international media a month later to the location that IAF claimed it hit, but never ask their own government to take even local journalists to the places that PAF hit. lol


do agreee i noticed that too . but as expected indian will try to either dodge this question or will divert it towards balakot etc . let see what this vedic guy do


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## PakSword

sms said:


> Nah, no need to convince any one. Truth will come to light one day.


Truth is already out when a Pantagon correspondent told the world that all Pakistani F-16s were accounted for. 

You know, it would have been very difficult for us if your forces had shown radar shots (actually MS paint pics) showing JF-17 or Mirage being hit, because they are not counted perdiodically. Just to prove the two cent worth of your IAF, you guys claimed a wrong jet. Either you guys didn't know about the inventory process, or you committed an error just like your AD committed an error on that fateful day! 



Crystal-Clear said:


> media were there when pathankot happen they were there when uri happen but no media were allowed to film the location PAF bombed?


Even google maps didn't update the satellite imagery. Previously the same area was being updated more often! What a coincidence..

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## Crystal-Clear

PakSword said:


> Even google maps didn't update the satellite imagery. Previously the same area was being updated more often! What a coincidence..


one more thing i noticed is why no indian ask their military about their air defence systems ?
.
which successfully shot down indian mi-17 but failed to intercept Mirages, JF-17 & F-16 . they even failed to intercet simple Glide bombs.
.
imagine if a simple glide bomb could reach indian military installations in the presence of indian/israeli/russian air defence systems what kind of hell Babur and Raad will unleash on indians .


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## HalfMoon

India losing the battle to Pakistan on 27th Feb, 2019 made their entire IAF fighters useless.

Since then they have been trembling with fear and have been desperately waiting for the Rafales to arrive. But guess what Rafales will not be operationally ready until 2025. So Pakistan and China have a 5 years window where India is extremely vulnerable.

Chinese have tested the Indians since the last 2 months and Indians have surrendered every time without fail.


----------



## PakSword

Crystal-Clear said:


> one more thing i noticed is why no indian ask their military about their air defence systems ?
> which successfully shot down indian mi-17 (killimg all onboard) but failed to intercept Mirages, JF-17 & F-16 . they even failed to intercet simple Glide bombs.


I heard it was an Israeli AD system that hit the chopper.. it couldn't distinguish between a friend and foe in air.. and these Indians have the courage to claim that Abhinandan was in control when the kind of EW they experienced for the first time in so many years. Poor Abhi didn't even know he was crossing over into Pakistani side and the F-16s were waiting for him.

I am sure he didn't get any warning of a hostile missile lock too.

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## StormBreaker

Great, let’s deploy PAF CAT A pilots in China now.


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## Jackdaws

Crystal-Clear said:


> really?
> View attachment 652906


No one is disputing that an injured Indian fighter 
pilot was captured and beaten by a mob. I am talking about your Sukhoi claims.



sms said:


> It's not American source, but your PA and PM' statement that that three planes down, two pilot captured. Where is second person captured?


At one point they even claimed he was Israeli.


----------



## alphapak

sms said:


> Nah, no need to convince any one. Truth will come to light one day.



Yes truth will come out about the Su 30 Mki that was shot down. That is where
your Airforce boys pulled the Amraam missile from the backside of Su30.

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## Crystal-Clear

Jackdaws said:


> No one is disputing that an injured Indian fighter
> pilot was captured and beaten by a mob. I am talking about your Sukhoi claims.


no one is discussing sukhoi here as we dont have proof we accept that . do you accept that you dont have any proofs of shooting down an F-16?
no you wont because thats the only face saving thing you had on that humiliating day (for iaf).


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## PakSword

By the way guys, I have just checked, the satellite image of one location I know has been updated on google Earth..

28-Oct-2018:







17-Jun-2020





@StormBreaker @Crystal-Clear

Where do you think guys the bomb hit??? 

@The Eagle , is the difference reported anywhere earlier?

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## alphapak

Where did they get this piece from? From the Su30 wreckage?


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## Crystal-Clear

PakSword said:


> 17-Jun-2020
> View attachment 652915
> 
> 
> @StormBreaker @Crystal-Clear
> 
> Where do you think guys the bomb hit???


thats a gift from PAF to indian air defence units
. a ground to play cricket of football.


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## Ultima Thule

I think without developing a tactics against Chinese jets like J-11/Su-30 MKK/MKK2 a development of Rafale is useless for India


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## Jackdaws

Crystal-Clear said:


> no one is discussing sukhoi here as we dont have proof we accept that . do you accept that you dont have any proofs of shooting down an F-16?
> no you wont because thats the only face saving thing you had on that humiliating day (for iaf).


Yes, I admit we don't have conclusive proof of shooting down an F16.


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## Ultima Thule

Jackdaws said:


> Yes, I admit we don't have conclusive proof of shooting down an F16.


both MKI/F-16 shooting down claim for both parties is still in the fog of war


----------



## HalfMoon

Ultima Thule said:


> I think without developing a tactics against Chinese jets like J-11/Su-30 MKK/MKK2 a development of Rafale is useless for India



Forget about developing tactics. Rafale enhancements that India needs will not be ready until October 2024. So even on paper Rafales will not be ready until end of 2024.


----------



## PakSword

Crystal-Clear said:


> thats a gift from PAF to indian air defence units
> . a ground to play cricket of football.


Are you talking about this piece of forest converted into a playground by PAF for IAF? But Indian security forces say that the bombs didn't explode..


----------



## Crystal-Clear

PakSword said:


> Are you talking about this piece of forest converted into a playground by PAF for IAF? But Indian security forces say that the bombs didn't explode..
> 
> View attachment 652920
> 
> 
> View attachment 652919


they will say tha same when BABUR hit their parliament or pm house .


----------



## danger007

Crystal-Clear said:


> they will say tha same when BABUR hit their parliament or pm house .




Lol, just living in denial mode... grow up..


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## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> Lol, just living in denial mode... grow up..


you're always in denial mode not us

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## Crystal-Clear

danger007 said:


> Lol, just living in denial mode... grow up..







these 2 decade old systems reach indian military installations undetected under the nose of indian air defence systems  .

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## danger007

Ultima Thule said:


> you're always in denial mode not us




Nope I'm not.. if you can, you would have tried already...


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## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> Nope I'm not.. if you can, you would have tried already...


What we tried already please tell us , and you're acting like a 4 year old kid


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## StormBreaker

PakSword said:


> By the way guys, I have just checked, the satellite image of one location I know has been updated on google Earth..
> 
> 28-Oct-2018:
> View attachment 652926
> 
> 
> 
> 17-Jun-2020
> View attachment 652925
> 
> 
> @StormBreaker @Crystal-Clear
> 
> Where do you think guys the bomb hit???
> 
> @The Eagle , is the difference reported anywhere earlier?


Share the coords, I have a serious theory on this one, just want to verify


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## PakSword

StormBreaker said:


> Share the coords, I have a serious theory on this one, just want to verify


What theory?


----------



## Ultima Thule

mig25 said:


> Do you guys even think before you post? Care to explain your post?


Without proper tactics/Training against PLAAF fighter using RAFALE, what do you accept from RAFALE???


sms said:


> So, second pilot was assumed Indian and killed by PA or locals. RIP
> It's rare t happen in Pakistan, but we all hope he got proper burial and recognition for lying his life in line of duty.


You're in delusional as usual, if we assumed that you shot down our F-16 where were the wreckage of our F-16, we lived in digital world when your Bison was shot down images of Bison's wreckage appeared within hours, so where was the wreckage of our F-16, you have Spy satellites to prove your proofs, didn't you???

And last there were technicalities limitations of Mig-21 design, its has a small diameter intake radar, which doesn't able to see through beyond visual range, i am saying that because we have similar upgrade for our F-7 called F-7PG (its radar range only 55 km) so we assumed that your MIG-21 Bison has similar radar range And our F-16 is far far ahead in term tech to your vedic/mighty MIG-21 Bison at every sense, You claimed that you shot down our F-16 in within visual range, Why our F-16 need to come close to your MIG-21 we have better ranged BVR

And last PAF and govt of Pakistan can't hide the family members of your claimed pilots you FALSE-FULLY CLAIMED SHAHZAZ- UD-DIN from the media and from the public

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## Arsalan 345

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> Within a week after they arrive (July 28/29).
> First batch will have 5-6 jets.
> 
> 
> No such thing happened. An admin branch officer died.


both pilots died in a road accident.it was all over twitter.ask faran jeffry.

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## Beefeatergin

Jackdaws said:


> Yes, I admit we don't have conclusive proof of shooting down an F16.


The Indians are hid the mki casualties as road accidents
https://m.timesofindia.com/india/2-...side-awantipora-base/articleshow/68724410.cms

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## mig25

Ultima Thule said:


> Without proper tactics/Training against PLAAF fighter using RAFALE, what do you accept from RAFALE???


It's a show of force. One that will make the enemy think. Introducing a new weapon system that is both potent and offers something new that was in the enemy's calculation matrix is a good move. 
IAF may have not drawn out a comprehensive plan or related strategies for this plane yet but they have been training for a while in France. They obviously know how to use the systems and already will have a very good understanding on both the highs and lows of the system and how to use both to their advantage. 
I don't understand these posts on why India should not use the Rafale against China.


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## HalfMoon

mig25 said:


> It's a show of force. One that will make the enemy think. Introducing a new weapon system that is both potent and offers something new that was in the enemy's calculation matrix is a good move.
> IAF may have not drawn out a comprehensive plan or related strategies for this plane yet but they have been training for a while in France. They obviously know how to use the systems and already will have a very good understanding on both the highs and lows of the system and how to use both to their advantage.
> I don't understand these posts on why India should not use the Rafale against China.



You think your dance and drama will scare and deter PLA/China.


----------



## Ultima Thule

mig25 said:


> It's a show of force. One that will make the enemy think. Introducing a new weapon system that is both potent and offers something new that was in the enemy's calculation matrix is a good move.
> IAF may have not drawn out a comprehensive plan or related strategies for this plane yet but they have been training for a while in France. They obviously know how to use the systems and already will have a very good understanding on both the highs and lows of the system and how to use both to their advantage.
> I don't understand these posts on why India should not use the Rafale against China.


They are or both China and for Pakistan but is too early to deploy their, because you're not develop any tactics against, J-11/J-16/Su-30/J-10, so i think develop of RAFALE is USELESS in laddakh sector

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## mig25

HalfMoon said:


> You think your dance and drama will scare and deter PLA/China.


If push comes to shove, India will deploy whatever it has against the Chinese. After all these are weapons supposed to be used in war. Will it scare the Chinese? Who cares? we will fight with what we got. What's so hard for you to understand?



Ultima Thule said:


> They are or both China and for Pakistan but is too early to deploy their, because you're not develop any tactics against, J-11/J-16/Su-30/J-10, so i think develop of RAFALE is USELESS in laddakh sector


Sure the Rafale is a useless fighter in Ladakh. Whatever floats your boat..


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## Ultima Thule

mig25 said:


> If push comes to shove, India will deploy whatever it has against the Chinese. After all these are weapons supposed to be used in war. Will it scare the Chinese? Who cares? we will fight with what we got. What's so hard for you to understand?


its just a show off nothing else, IAF currently don't know how to use RAFALE AGAINST J-11/SU-30/J-10

TACTICS TACTICS TACTICS



mig25 said:


> If push comes to shove, India will deploy whatever it has against the Chinese. After all these are weapons supposed to be used in war. Will it scare the Chinese? Who cares? we will fight with what we got. What's so hard for you to understand?
> 
> 
> Sure the Rafale is a useless fighter in Ladakh. Whatever floats your boat..


nO I AM NOT SAYING THAT, WOULD INDIA EVER PUT RAFALE AND CHINESE FIGHTER JETS ON ONE ON BASIS/ OR THEIR COUNTERPARTS??? SO RAFALE IS BEING EFFECTIVE AGAINST CHINESE FIGHTER JETS, TRY TO UNDERSTAND

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## Nilgiri

Ultima Thule said:


> TACTICS TACTICS TACTICS



Don't forget....MORE TACTICS


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## danger007

Ultima Thule said:


> What we tried already please tell us , and you're acting like a 4 year old kid




I'm not, but it's you guys who always try to get attention by showing bravado posts..


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## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> I'm not, but it's you guys who always try to get attention by showing bravado posts..


AND YOU GUYS ARE NOT POSTING BRAVADO POST, AND NOT TO THINK LOGICALLY AND SENSIBLY???


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## danger007

Ultima Thule said:


> AND YOU GUYS ARE NOT POSTING BRAVADO POST, AND NOT TO THINK LOGICALLY AND SENSIBLY???




99% of threads posted here, trying to boast.. nothing else.
. But you can't notice because you don't want ..


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## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> 99% of threads posted here, trying to boast.. nothing else.
> . But you can't notice because you don't want ..


You guys always talk illogically/senselessly, most Pakistani members thinks more logically/sensibly than most of Indian members here on PDF

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## danger007

Ultima Thule said:


> You guys always talk illogically/senselessly, most Pakistani members thinks more logically/sensibly than most of Indian members here on PDF




You are just giving certificate to your self
... lol


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## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> You are just giving certificate to your self
> ... lol


No, i am not giving myself a certificate, but for example your claims of to shot down of our F-16 last year and 40 Chinese soldier killed by Indian soldiers can defy logic and common sense


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## danger007

Ultima Thule said:


> No, i am not giving myself a certificate, but for example your claims of to shot down of our F-16 last year and 40 Chinese soldier killed by Indian soldiers can defy logic and common sense




Thread is about rafale jets deployment.. it's our wish to deploy then wherever we want... they are planned to be deployed in chinese border.. and what is the fuss.. lol you guys started talking babur reaching delhi... and you think Islamabad getaway?

Ok lets assume 40 soldiers are wrong... then tell me how many died... if you have the actual numbers..


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## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> Thread is about rafale jets deployment.. it's our wish to deploy then wherever we want... they are planned to be deployed in chinese border.. and what is the fuss.. lol you guys started talking babur reaching delhi... and you think Islamabad getaway?


Again defying logic and common sense without developing tactics against Chinese fighter jets, its has no use on laddakh sector, and tactics can be any particular jets is being develop in years


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## danger007

Ultima Thule said:


> Again defying logic and common sense without developing tactics against Chinese fighter jets, its has no use on laddakh sector, and tactics can be any particular jets is being develop in years




See post without brain... china facing heat from USN... and china have too many claims across the border be it land or sea.. if it can afford to diversify its resources for ladakh... we are not going to deploy those 5 alone... they are deployed for training purposes in that region.. 


All hail to your tactics 
....


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## HalfMoon

danger007 said:


> 99% of threads posted here, trying to boast.. nothing else.
> . But you can't notice because you don't want ..



LoL

You do realize that the Rafales that you are receiving have No Eyes to see, No Nose to breath and No Teeth to bite.

You are receiving Rafales with no senses, a senseless reporter publishes this nonsense and Indian members lacking common sense opens this thread to boast and create nuisance. Let the suspense continue for you on how the Chinese will destroy your new mighty god. You will then know the true meaning of obsolescence.

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## Ultima Thule

danger007 said:


> See post without brain... china facing heat from USN... and china have too many claims across the border be it land or sea.. if it can afford to diversify its resources for ladakh... we are not going to deploy those 5 alone... they are deployed for training purposes in that region..
> 
> 
> All hail to your tactics
> ....


So you will deploy your latest jets on a high tension area for only to train pilots, thats more retard logic than i think


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## sms

alphapak said:


> Yes truth will come out about the Su 30 Mki that was shot down. That is where
> your Airforce boys pulled the Amraam missile from the backside of Su30.


OK, it that makes you happy! Please keep living in LA LA land



Ultima Thule said:


> Without proper tactics/Training against PLAAF fighter using RAFALE, what do you accept from RAFALE???
> 
> You're in delusional as usual, if we assumed that you shot down our F-16 where were the wreckage of our F-16, we lived in digital world when your Bison was shot down images of Bison's wreckage appeared within hours, so where was the wreckage of our F-16, you have Spy satellites to prove your proofs, didn't you???
> 
> And last there were technicalities limitations of Mig-21 design, its has a small diameter intake radar, which doesn't able to see through beyond visual range, i am saying that because we have similar upgrade for our F-7 called F-7PG (its radar range only 55 km) so we assumed that your MIG-21 Bison has similar radar range And our F-16 is far far ahead in term tech to your vedic/mighty MIG-21 Bison at every sense, You claimed that you shot down our F-16 in within visual range, Why our F-16 need to come close to your MIG-21 we have better ranged BVR
> 
> And last PAF and govt of Pakistan can't hide the family members of your claimed pilots you FALSE-FULLY CLAIMED SHAHZAZ- UD-DIN from the media and from the public



Finally, resorting to name calling. that an answer in it self.



Ultima Thule said:


> And last PAF and govt of Pakistan can't hide the family members of your claimed pilots you FALSE-FULLY CLAIMED SHAHZAZ- UD-DIN from the media and from the public


They are more capable than you think, 1948, 1965, 1999 may ring some bell in your head.


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## Ultima Thule

sms said:


> Finally, resorting to name calling. that an answer in it self.


Speechless as usual nothing to say i know its not your fault because you're brainwashed by your govt/Military
and your country/culture/religion/govt/military believes in lies and deception


sms said:


> They are more capable than you think, 1948, 1965, 1999 may ring some bell in your head.


with the exception of 99 what govt of Pakistan lie to Pakistani people for 48/65 wars??? and you lived in your delusional world, and what's the technical design limitation of your Mig-21 that's i talk about, does your vedic/ mighty Mig-21 has cloaking device that our all radars (AWACS/F-16's radars/ ground based radars) unable to detect your invisible/invincible Mig-21


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## sms

Ultima Thule said:


> Speechless as usual nothing to say i know its not your fault because you're brainwashed by your govt/Military
> and your country/culture/religion/govt/military believes in lies and deception



We too know that it's not your fault. There some benefits of Ostrich Syndrome. It can keep you happy. Keep it up I'm happy for you. 

PS: R73 is very capable missile.


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## Ultima Thule

sms said:


> We too know that it's not your fault. There some benefits of Ostrich Syndrome. It can keep you happy. Keep it up I'm happy for you.
> 
> PS: R73 is very capable missile.


Lol first tell us how our f16 need to get close your vedic MIG 21 to fight within visual range combat our f16 is way way ahead to your mig 21 in term of radars/avionics/weapons ( AMRAAM) 
And i am not denying that r73 is very good short range air to air missile but please explain us why our f16 need to close your MIG 21, you guys always bring new conspiracy theories everyday of shooting down our f16

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## sms

Ultima Thule said:


> Lol first tell us how our f16 need to get close your vedic MIG 21 to fight within visual range combat our f16 is way way ahead to your mig 21 in term of radars/avionics/weapons ( AMRAAM)
> And i am not denying that r73 is very good short range air to air missile but please explain us why our f16 need to close your MIG 21, you guys always bring new conspiracy theories everyday of shooting down our f16



Look at the theater and location where it has happened. You'll get your answers.


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## Ultima Thule

sms said:


> Look at the theater and location where it has happened. You'll get your answers.


Ah now another defying logic by Indians our f16 and AWACS flying higher than pir panjal mountains and your ground based radars were able to detect PAKISTANI intruders but our f16/AWACS/ground based are unable to detect Indian jets what a retard and stupid logic you have and as for your information abhi didn't know where it is because his com was jammed by our ecm aircraft
You guys lack logic and commonsense

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## CIA Mole

Hope they get shot down by Chinese MANPADs

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## Jackdaws

Beefeatergin said:


> The Indians are hid the mki casualties as road accidents
> https://m.timesofindia.com/india/2-...side-awantipora-base/articleshow/68724410.cms


Yes, for 40 odd days....

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## sms

Ultima Thule said:


> Ah now another defying logic by Indians our f16 and AWACS flying higher than pir panjal mountains and your ground based radars were able to detect PAKISTANI intruders but our f16/AWACS/ground based are unable to detect Indian jets what a retard and stupid logic you have and as for your information abhi didn't know where it is because his com was jammed by our ecm aircraft
> You guys lack logic and commonsense


Read again what have you written. Answer is hidden in your post.


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## MirageBlue

Dassault posted this infographic. The IAF already has invested in Indian Specific Enhancements, and also in a lot of facilities and infrastructure, to be able to support at least 4 squadrons of Rafale fighters. Buying 36 or 44 more makes the most sense.

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## I S I

MirageBlue said:


> Dassault posted this infographic. The IAF already has invested in Indian Specific Enhancements, and also in a lot of facilities and infrastructure, to be able to support at least 4 squadrons of Rafale fighters. Buying 36 or 44 more makes the most sense.


B21 raider of the East.


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## The Eagle

PakSword said:


> Indians believed all the theories of F-16 pilot, picked names from internet (Shahzazuddin) and rejoiced. Imagine if a F-16 pilot had actually died in an accident a few days after 27th Feb.



YOu can't convince someone that decided not to agree no matter what. Now the boys wants HD photos or what if they soon start to believe that those are mock-ups. They have everything to divert attention but Abhinandan isn't coming on record to claim otherwise. Oh..man, the politically intended circus will continue as long as Modi & gang is convinced as such.

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## Tipu7

MirageBlue said:


> and also in a lot of facilities and infrastructure, to be able to support at least 4 squadrons of Rafale fighters.


And where that infrastructure is located? 


MirageBlue said:


> Buying 36 or 44 more makes the most sense.


From where the money will come?


----------



## wasileo80

Jackdaws said:


> Lol. What face saving? Abhinandan was alert and did his job. Something your pilots didn't do the previous day Forget entering Indian territory, they gave a free pass in their own territory. Not just in the Kashmir that both sides claim - India entered into undisputed territory of KPK - unchallenged. If you are proud of that, I don't know what to say.
> 
> 
> I am sure deep down you must truly believe this fairytale.
> 
> 
> What exactly did they hit? Even Pak claimed they did not hit anything.



Whatever you say is purely an Indian version.. and you know what? World is not getting Indian version anymore because they knew that Indian Media is biggest liers and propaganda factory. Only Indians believe their stupid Media stories.

And for evidence and proof, on 27th February actions are not for public like you to prove anything. Whatever PAF have done, the concerned parties addressed well and they got their lessons. Its not for cheering public like you and me. As the message were for your Political Elite, Your Armed Forces Generals and your international handlers.. and the good thing is the message were well received by all concerned parties. 
And it does not matter that you accept it or not but your armed forces knew well what was happened to them on 27th Feb. Also Americans knew that, Russians knew that what happened to their Aircrafts in IAF inventory.. even French knew that as well, what happened to their M2K..
So whatever you and many alike you are saying on PDF or any other forum does not matter as facts cannot be changed with your denial. 
What Pakistan achieved on 27th Feb. is history now and it has been saved in International archives.
And about 26th Feb. well again what PAF done to your attacking and Asian Raptor formations were also part of history and it will not changed by your stories.
So for personal satisfaction, you can say anything like you came in Pakistan and bombed our territory and killed 300 or 350 or 500 people here and went back unchallenged. And on other hand PAF came on 27th and effectively challenged by IAF and PAF ran away by dropping bombs in haste and etc. well no one believes you anymore in international community leave aside Pakistanis. 
Be happy with your Media stories..


----------



## Jackdaws

wasileo80 said:


> Whatever you say is purely an Indian version.. and you know what? World is not getting Indian version anymore because they knew that Indian Media is biggest liers and propaganda factory. Only Indians believe their stupid Media stories.
> 
> And for evidence and proof, on 27th February actions are not for public like you to prove anything. Whatever PAF have done, the concerned parties addressed well and they got their lessons. Its not for cheering public like you and me. As the message were for your Political Elite, Your Armed Forces Generals and your international handlers.. and the good thing is the message were well received by all concerned parties.
> And it does not matter that you accept it or not but your armed forces knew well what was happened to them on 27th Feb. Also Americans knew that, Russians knew that what happened to their Aircrafts in IAF inventory.. even French knew that as well, what happened to their M2K..
> So whatever you and many alike you are saying on PDF or any other forum does not matter as facts cannot be changed with your denial.
> What Pakistan achieved on 27th Feb. is history now and it has been saved in International archives.
> And about 26th Feb. well again what PAF done to your attacking and Asian Raptor formations were also part of history and it will not changed by your stories.
> So for personal satisfaction, you can say anything like you came in Pakistan and bombed our territory and killed 300 or 350 or 500 people here and went back unchallenged. And on other hand PAF came on 27th and effectively challenged by IAF and PAF ran away by dropping bombs in haste and etc. well no one believes you anymore in international community leave aside Pakistanis.
> Be happy with your Media stories..


Haha. The only ones who believe the Pakistani version of events are the Pakistanis. But that's ok. We've seen it in every war from 65 to 99 - Pak parrots one line, their masses accept it till the truth comes out. Happened with "Osama is not in Pak" and "Pak is not involved in 26/11" too. It's just a matter of time before facts come out. Wait and watch.


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## wasileo80

sms said:


> Nah, no need to convince any one. Truth will come to light one day.
> 
> 
> 
> Calling Modi Govt and media liar does not make you saint and please do not bring Rahul Gandhi in to discussion, less said is better.
> 
> Let's agree to disagree, I'll believe IAF and you can trust narrative paddled by your media and Govt.



Truth is always one it cant be second. But lies have different versions as IAF and Indian media portray different versions.
And for Pakistan, we presented the truth and its only one and the whole world saw that truth.

Also Truth already came to light and everybody accept it except Indians. And now we will wait for truth to come out only for Indians so that one day Indian will accept the reality as well.


----------



## Oracle

sms said:


> Look at the theater and location where it has happened. You'll get your answers.


Brother dont trust Pakistan or Muslim , but please trust Non Muslim Gora Alan warnes who verified it that all missiles were intact on Mig 21


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## wasileo80

Jackdaws said:


> Yes, I admit we don't have conclusive proof of shooting down an F16.



Dear Proofs are only there if it happened. But nothing such happened then where from you get the proof. Simple logic as i said before truth is only one but lies have different versions. That is why IAF and Indian media have different stories. So for a sensible person its enough to say but for guys like you..ufff... no one can take you out from delusions.


----------



## Jackdaws

Oracle said:


> Brother dont trust Pakistan or Muslim , but please trust Non Muslim Gora Alan warnes who verified it that all missiles were intact on Mig 27


Why shouldn't we trust Muslims? And asking us to believe Alan Warnes is like Indians asking you to believe William Dalrymple.


----------



## sms

Oracle said:


> Brother dont trust Pakistan or Muslim , but please trust Non Muslim Gora Alan warnes who verified it that all missiles were intact on Mig 27



Brother, I've no grudges against any one. 
But there was no Mig 27 involved in this event.


----------



## pothead

The Eagle said:


> YOu can't convince someone that decided not to agree no matter what. Now the boys wants HD photos or what if they soon start to believe that those are mock-ups. They have everything to divert attention but Abhinandan isn't coming on record to claim otherwise. Oh..man, the politically intended circus will continue as long as Modi & gang is convinced as such.



Touche buddy,
There are videos, enough to convince a jury but sadly your countrymen are hell bent on closing their eyes and ears..


----------



## Ultima Thule

sms said:


> Read again what have you written. Answer is hidden in your post.


What ANSWER i didn't understand in my post PLEASE EXPLAIN it to me, when you have SPEECHLESS you guys always started to rants


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## Nadeem Ganjum

Can't wait to see it shot down


----------



## Ultima Thule

pothead said:


> Touche buddy,
> There are videos, enough to convince a jury but sadly your countrymen are hell bent on closing their eyes and ears..


By mistakes you indiont and there are lots of Indian media reporting from IOK that the they seeing some IAF jets crashed in IOK and two parachutes seeing there on same day


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## HalfMoon

CIA Mole said:


> Hope they get shot down by Chinese MANPADs



They will surely get shot down.

The Rafales that IAF will receive this month will be missing the following key features

The enhanced capabilities in the Rafale fighters sought by India will see 14 India Specific Enhancements Exclusive to be incorporated to India bound 36 Rafale fighter jets which will be added by the company once the delivery of all the jets is completed by 2022. 14 India Specific Enhancements for India bound Rafale fighter jets have been listed out 

1) Upgraded Sigma 95N INS: A Hybrid inertial navigation/GPS system used on the Dassault Rafale fighter jets will now support Indian developed Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS ) also called as NAVIC which provides accurate real-time positioning and timing services for India and a region extending 1,500 km around it. 

2) Upgraded RBE-2 AESA-MMR: RBE2 AESA radar developed by Thales will now feature Airborne weather radar which will come in handy to predict more timely and accurate weather conditions. 

3) Enhanced OBOGS: Rafale fighter jet comes fitted with an onboard oxygen generation system (OBOGS) which suppresses the need for liquid oxygen re-filling or ground support for oxygen production, but India has asked for Enhanced OBOGS system which will have enhanced capacity supporting additional filters. 

4) Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS): Thales developed Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) contains Air Traffic Surveillance Awareness capabilities like a Terrain Avoidance Warning System (TAWS) which will improve the level of awareness and comfort of the flight crew. 

5) Tweaked M88 Engines: Rafale fighter jet which uses M88-4E engines will receive tweaks to its fuel starter so that engine can operate at optimum even at sub-zero high altitude air base of Indian air force. 

6) IESI (Integrated Electronic Standby Instruments): Thales developed IESI will be installed to operate in a particular set of environmental conditions and features accurate low airspeed measurement to cope with the flight envelope while avoiding additional weight due to external air data computer. 

7) Quad-Pack Ejectors: Rafale fighter jet will be getting French developed Quad-Pack Ejectors which can be used for low weight Stand-Off Weapon both of Indian and foreign origins. 

8) X-Guard fiber-optic towed decoy system: India bound Rafale fighter jets will be getting X-Guard fibre-optic towed decoy system which is designed to counter air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles. Each aircraft carries two X-Guard towed decoy and can be released when the aircraft approaches a saturated area or when a threat is detected. The most suitable countermeasure is transmitted to the X-Guard by the aircraft’s electronic countermeasures system. The fiber-optic connection to the aircraft allows accurate jamming, says Rafael. 

9) Tweaks to SPECTRA Electronic Warfare System: India specific threat libraries will be added and SPECTRA EW System will also feature Low- Medium and High band apertures to deal with low observable aircraft. 

10) TARGO-II Helmet Mounted Display Systems Developed by ELBIT 

11) Integration of LITENING G4 Target Acquisition Pod which are already used by Indian Air Force for its frontline fighter aircraft, including the Su-30 MKI, MiG-29 

12) Integration of Rafael’s SPICE 1000 EO/GPS-guided munitions 

13 ) MBDA developed Meteor BVRAAM and ALARM Anti-radiation missile 

14) Assistance to be provided to local Indian Public sector companies for Integration of Weapons ranging from India’s Astra BVRAAM to High-speed low drag (HSLD) bombs with the aircraft’s weapons control system. India bound Rafale fighter jets are also rumored to later get specific Indian enhancements which can come handy in the delivery of Nuclear weapons, which obviously will not be confirmed by Indian or French governments.

https://idrw.org/14-india-specific-enhancements-exclusive-to-india-bound-rafale-fighter-jets/ .


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*Indians are getting over excited with the Induction of Rafales. Seems like the Rafale will cure all their miseries and in competencies. IAF used to say the same for all previous jets they procured, in the end they proved to be a dampener for the sellers.*

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1285606153066446848

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## Vanguard One

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> *New Delhi (July 19): *The Indian Air Force is reportedly planning to deploy the first batch of Rafale fighter jets in the Ladakh sector soon after they arrive in India on July 27 to bolster India’s military position in the region amid ongoing border tension with China.
> 
> The possible deployment of the fighter jets in the Ladakh sector is also on the agenda of the IAF commanders’ three-day conference which will begin on Wednesday, PTI reported, citing military sources.
> 
> _During the key meet, senior commanders of the Indian Air Force will discuss in detail the country's air defence system and also carry out an in-depth review of it. The conference will commence from July 22 and will be headed by Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria and attended by all seven of his commanders-in-chief.
> 
> Indian and Chinese forces have been locked in a bitter border standoff in eastern Ladakh since early May this year. The two sides started the disengagement process earlier this month in the first step towards de-escalation of border tensions.
> 
> https://www.timesnownews.com/india/...genda-of-key-iaf-commanders-3-day-meet/623972_



Nice to see India getting modern weapons to slay the little Emperors.


----------



## Globenim

Please dont crashland them into our beautiful lakes. Thank you.


----------



## Beefeatergin

Jackdaws said:


> Yes, for 40 odd days....


Hey you’re the guys that also believed that you invented the internet 1000 years ago
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/558725/


----------



## Figaro

HalfMoon said:


> They will surely get shot down.
> 
> The Rafales that IAF will receive this month will be missing the following key features
> 
> The enhanced capabilities in the Rafale fighters sought by India will see 14 India Specific Enhancements Exclusive to be incorporated to India bound 36 Rafale fighter jets which will be added by the company once the delivery of all the jets is completed by 2022. 14 India Specific Enhancements for India bound Rafale fighter jets have been listed out
> 
> 1) Upgraded Sigma 95N INS: A Hybrid inertial navigation/GPS system used on the Dassault Rafale fighter jets will now support Indian developed Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS ) also called as NAVIC which provides accurate real-time positioning and timing services for India and a region extending 1,500 km around it.
> 
> 2) Upgraded RBE-2 AESA-MMR: RBE2 AESA radar developed by Thales will now feature Airborne weather radar which will come in handy to predict more timely and accurate weather conditions.
> 
> 3) Enhanced OBOGS: Rafale fighter jet comes fitted with an onboard oxygen generation system (OBOGS) which suppresses the need for liquid oxygen re-filling or ground support for oxygen production, but India has asked for Enhanced OBOGS system which will have enhanced capacity supporting additional filters.
> 
> 4) Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS): Thales developed Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) contains Air Traffic Surveillance Awareness capabilities like a Terrain Avoidance Warning System (TAWS) which will improve the level of awareness and comfort of the flight crew.
> 
> 5) Tweaked M88 Engines: Rafale fighter jet which uses M88-4E engines will receive tweaks to its fuel starter so that engine can operate at optimum even at sub-zero high altitude air base of Indian air force.
> 
> 6) IESI (Integrated Electronic Standby Instruments): Thales developed IESI will be installed to operate in a particular set of environmental conditions and features accurate low airspeed measurement to cope with the flight envelope while avoiding additional weight due to external air data computer.
> 
> 7) Quad-Pack Ejectors: Rafale fighter jet will be getting French developed Quad-Pack Ejectors which can be used for low weight Stand-Off Weapon both of Indian and foreign origins.
> 
> 8) X-Guard fiber-optic towed decoy system: India bound Rafale fighter jets will be getting X-Guard fibre-optic towed decoy system which is designed to counter air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles. Each aircraft carries two X-Guard towed decoy and can be released when the aircraft approaches a saturated area or when a threat is detected. The most suitable countermeasure is transmitted to the X-Guard by the aircraft’s electronic countermeasures system. The fiber-optic connection to the aircraft allows accurate jamming, says Rafael.
> 
> 9) Tweaks to SPECTRA Electronic Warfare System: India specific threat libraries will be added and SPECTRA EW System will also feature Low- Medium and High band apertures to deal with low observable aircraft.
> 
> 10) TARGO-II Helmet Mounted Display Systems Developed by ELBIT
> 
> 11) Integration of LITENING G4 Target Acquisition Pod which are already used by Indian Air Force for its frontline fighter aircraft, including the Su-30 MKI, MiG-29
> 
> 12) Integration of Rafael’s SPICE 1000 EO/GPS-guided munitions
> 
> 13 ) MBDA developed Meteor BVRAAM and ALARM Anti-radiation missile
> 
> 14) Assistance to be provided to local Indian Public sector companies for Integration of Weapons ranging from India’s Astra BVRAAM to High-speed low drag (HSLD) bombs with the aircraft’s weapons control system. India bound Rafale fighter jets are also rumored to later get specific Indian enhancements which can come handy in the delivery of Nuclear weapons, which obviously will not be confirmed by Indian or French governments.
> 
> https://idrw.org/14-india-specific-enhancements-exclusive-to-india-bound-rafale-fighter-jets/ .


So instead of continuing the FGFA program and getting somewhat fifth gen fighters we now see what India has spent their money on ... wise move

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## MirageBlue

Tipu7 said:


> And where that infrastructure is located?
> 
> From where the money will come?



Ambala and Hashimara AFS. 

And there is money, if the Govt wants to buy 36-44 more Rafales. India spends less than 1.5% of its GDP on defence. Time now to step it up to at least 2% of the GDP. The wake up call on the LAC with China will now mean that defence requests will be taken more seriously than they were earlier.

The first 5 Rafales of the IAF are due to arrive in India by July end. 3 Rafale DH twin seaters and 2 Rafale EH single seaters.

Just FYI, the H in Rafale DH and EH, stands for Hindustan.

IAF expects delivery of first 5 Rafale fighters in late July



> The Indian Air Force (IAF) is expecting delivery of the first five of 36 Dassault Rafale multirole fighter aircraft before the end of July, according to a 20 July statement by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) in New Delhi.
> 
> The aircraft are expected to be inducted at Ambala Air Force Station (AFS) in northern India on 29 July “subject to [the] weather”, said the MoD, adding that no media coverage is planned on arrival.
> 
> The final induction ceremony will take place in the second half of August.
> 
> “IAF aircrew and ground crew have undergone comprehensive training on the aircraft, including its highly advanced weapon systems, and are fully operational now. Post arrival, efforts will focus on operationalisation of the aircraft at the earliest,” added the MoD.
> 
> India ordered 36 Rafales in 2016 for EUR7.9 billion (USD9.04 billion) and took delivery of the first of these fighters in a ceremony held in France in October 2019.
> 
> This aircraft was initially expected to be one of four Rafales to be ferried to Ambala AFS in April or May for induction into the IAF’s No.17 ‘Golden Arrows’ squadron, which is set to operate a total of 18 Rafales. The delivery, however, was delayed as a result of the Covid-19 coronavirus pandemic.

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## Jackdaws

Beefeatergin said:


> Hey you’re the guys that also believed that you invented the internet 1000 years ago
> https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/558725/


Clearly your own link says the Indian Internet laughed at him. So obviously he wasn't believed. Unlike the conspiracy theories peddled in Pak which when convenient even painted Fatima Jinnah as an Indian agent.


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## The Maverick

Tipu7 said:


> And where that infrastructure is located?
> 
> From where the money will come?



Do you have any idea how much money Indian govt has.

Like 520 billion in forex reserves 
We are the 5th largest economy on the planet 
The entire world is all over us wanting to to do trade and get access to the largest middle class population. On the planet outside of China. 

Our financial.and economic strength is our biggest worry for our neighbours

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## no smoking

MirageBlue said:


> And there is money, if the Govt wants to buy 36-44 more Rafales. India spends *less than 1.5%* of its GDP on defence. Time now to step it up to at least 2% of the GDP. The wake up call on the LAC with China will now mean that defence requests will be taken more seriously than they were earlier.



According to Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, India spent *2.4%* of GDP on defence in 2019.


Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst


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## MirageBlue

no smoking said:


> According to Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, India spent *2.4%* of GDP on defence in 2019.
> 
> 
> Read more at:
> https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst



Because for SIPRI, it's all defence spending. The reality is that when one DOES NOT account for pensions, the spending on defence is 1.5% of the GDP.

Economic Times article



> *
> There was also no mention of the defence budget during the budget speech of Finance Minister Nirmala Sitharaman who was earlier the Defence Minister, indicating that the government has prioritised other sectors over defence. Without the pension, the defence budget is only 1.5 percent of the GDP.*


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## Khan vilatey

I can never understand the Indian goverment psyche when it comes to defence. India lost 40 troops in Kashmir, India lost 20 troops in Galwan, these are honorable men who are going to pointless slaughter. There is no real response from the Indians. 

In contrast when the afghans attacked Pakistani troops we destroyed their post resulting in significant losses to the ANA. 

The question is why does India not take action against China in Galwan and with twice the force attack Pakistan and give a real response so Pakistan is deterred?

KV


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## Zarvan




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## alphapak

How long does it take for pilots to be fully trained on a new fighter jet?

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## NAVDEEP DHALIWAL

To do fighting and close combats? 5-10 years to fully evolve strategies and test aircraft limits. 
But as all this has been tested by French so i would say we need just practice / training so max 5 years. 
And for bvr only fight , 6 months training is enough For a very experienced pilot. As bvr is more dependent on machinery of plane radars satellite links etc.
Indian pilots & technicians have already completed training in France. 
So in a pinch Rafael are fully combat ready.

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## no smoking

MirageBlue said:


> Because for SIPRI, it's all defence spending. The reality is that when one DOES NOT account for pensions, the spending on defence is 1.5% of the GDP.
> 
> Economic Times article



When SIPRI produced the report, every country's military pension was counted as defence expense, India is not alone. Not recognizing it as part of defence doesn't mean you don't need to spend this money.


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## MirageBlue

no smoking said:


> When SIPRI produced the report, every country's military pension was counted as defence expense, India is not alone. Not recognizing it as part of defence doesn't mean you don't need to spend this money.



And yet, that money does not in any way contribute towards acquisition capital budgets. The fact remains that India's defence spending at 1.5% of GDP post pension spending is way too low. It was last this low prior to 1962. And now after the border issue with China, money is being spent rapidly on emergency purchases. So the money was there, just allocated elsewhere.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*India to boost Rafale capabilities with HAMMER (Highly Agile Modular Munition Extended Range)missiles under an emergency order. India has ordered them from the French Military Inventory. Hammer can hit Hard targets and Bunkers with accuracy in Mountainous landscapes like Ladakh.*

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1286245939355754496
https://www.aninews.in/news/nationa...ncy-order20200723134530/#.XxlVoDV6CzQ.twitter

*The Indians are purchasing advance TOYS from every possible avenue to counter the Chinese. We should be vigilant as well as they may be used against us too. I hope we have contingency plans in place to counter the Indian Spending spree.*

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## Trango Towers

Knee jerk reaction purchases. 
I think there is a lot of back handers going on here

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Trango Towers said:


> Knee jerk reaction purchases


*Agree ,they have the potential to be used against us as well. Need to be very vigilant now.*

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## Enigma SIG

Trango Towers said:


> Knee jerk reaction purchases.
> I think there is a lot of back handers going on here


West milking India for all its worth.

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## KeyBORED Warrior

Could also be a ploy by some corrupt officials to make merry while the sun shines. Getting millions in kickbacks by purchasing weapon systems they probably won't/don't buy under normal circumstances. Either way, its cutting into their resources and they're losing sleep over the China situation. Win-win !

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

KeyBORED Warrior said:


> Could also be a ploy by some corrupt officials to make merry while the sun shines.


*India will be BANKRUPT very soon, already its economy is sinking.*

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## Pakistan Space Agency

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *India to boost Rafale capabilities with HAMMER (Highly Agile Modular Munition Extended Range)missiles under an emergency order. India has ordered them from the French Military Inventory. Hammer can hit Hard targets and Bunkers with accuracy in Mountainous landscapes like Ladakh.*
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1286245939355754496
> https://www.aninews.in/news/nationa...ncy-order20200723134530/#.XxlVoDV6CzQ.twitter
> 
> *The Indians are purchasing advance TOYS from every possible avenue to counter the Chinese. We should be vigilant as well as they may be used against us too. I hope we have contingency plans in place to counter the Indian Spending spree.*



India is under the impression, Pakistan is likely to initiate a conflict next year with huge Chinese military backing.

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## Taimoor Khan

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *India will be BANKRUPT very soon, already its economy is sinking.*




When people are eating dead animal on the roads in India to survive the pandemic, the audacity by the current Hindu terrorist regime to go on "buying" spree is very telling. Guess the rodents called "citizens" of India do not matter.

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## Raj-Hindustani

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *India will be BANKRUPT very soon, already its economy is sinking.*



At what basis you are claiming?

Look at defense expenses of Indian and Pakistan when comes to GDP... Then talk with some sense.. Thanks

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Look at defense expenses of Indian and Pakistan when comes to GDP


*Well according to the leading Global institutions your economy has taken a massive hit due to Covid, care to do some research dear.*

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## DANGER-ZONE

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *The Indians are purchasing advance TOYS from every possible avenue to counter the Chinese. We should be vigilant as well as they may be used against us too. I hope we have contingency plans in place to counter the Indian Spending spree.*



I agree with your point but there are two things,

1. We don't have money to match every single shit India does.
2. They are buying a missile that they haven't even used for once and they are going to deploy it successfully ASAP, I don't think so. They have had SPICE-2000 for over a decade at the time when they actually used it in real action and what was its result, 100% success in Indian Media, and 0% on the ground. So what will happen to the missile which will be deployed without any experience?

This acquisition is more of a show-off than having any strategic benefits, in the short run.

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## Raj-Hindustani

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Well according to the leading Global institutions your economy has taken a massive hit due to Covid, care to do some research dear.*



What about Pakistan?

For us, its a very temporary... Economy like China and India can recover very easily and don't worry... We will not go ask for loans from anyone to run the country.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Economy like China and India can recover very easily


*How ?*

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## rambro

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *India will be BANKRUPT very soon, already its economy is sinking.*


Thats the other obscured plan lol

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## Raj-Hindustani

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *How ?*



Read about economic then you will get the answer.

I m from commerce background and I could easily say that slow down can be possible for India but Bankrupt is almost impossible ... I would say that 99℅ is impossible.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Raj-Hindustani said:


> I would say that 99℅ is impossible.

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## Raj-Hindustani

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


>


Congratulations... U won in pic and PDF.. Thanks

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## Suriya

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *The Indians are purchasing advance TOYS from every possible avenue to counter the Chinese. We should be vigilant as well as they may be used against us too. I hope we have contingency plans in place to counter the Indian Spending spree.*


*Bilkul sahi pakde hain.
*
*India's military preparedness against China would take care of Pakistan by default.*

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## PradoTLC

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *India to boost Rafale capabilities with HAMMER (Highly Agile Modular Munition Extended Range)missiles under an emergency order. India has ordered them from the French Military Inventory. Hammer can hit Hard targets and Bunkers with accuracy in Mountainous landscapes like Ladakh.*
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1286245939355754496
> https://www.aninews.in/news/nationa...ncy-order20200723134530/#.XxlVoDV6CzQ.twitter
> 
> *The Indians are purchasing advance TOYS from every possible avenue to counter the Chinese. We should be vigilant as well as they may be used against us too. I hope we have contingency plans in place to counter the Indian Spending spree.*





pity.. they still have idiots to fly them

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## Trango Towers

Raj-Hindustani said:


> At what basis you are claiming?
> 
> Look at defense expenses of Indian and Pakistan when comes to GDP... Then talk with some sense.. Thanks


Because india will have to buy nappies for its troops and pilots

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## PradoTLC

Suriya said:


> India's military preparedness against China would take care of Pakistan by default.




when that happens .. call us.

so far we have been only seening loop side victories.. against india

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## Raj-Hindustani

Trango Towers said:


> Because india will have to buy nappies for its troops and pilots



And the Same guys are having rich history if I look at past 70 years.

So I m happy with that..


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## LeGenD

Taimoor Khan said:


> When people are eating dead animal on the roads in India to survive the pandemic, the audacity by the current Hindu terrorist regime to go on "buying" spree is very telling. Guess the rodents called "citizens" of India do not matter.


Bro,

Language alert. My request.

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## Suriya

Taimoor Khan said:


> When people are eating dead animal on the roads in India to survive the pandemic, the audacity by the current Hindu terrorist regime to go on "buying" spree is very telling. Guess the rodents called "citizens" of India do not matter.





LeGenD said:


> Bro,
> 
> Language alert. My request.


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## Trango Towers

Raj-Hindustani said:


> And the Same guys are having rich history if I look at past 70 years.
> 
> So I m happy with that..


It rich enough as they ruled you hindus for a 1000 years and then took Pakistan from you. Your rss can change the history to your flying machines and urine as medicine for COVID 19 and cow dung to protect you from nukes but reality even you know. Have a nice day. May you remain in denial

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## Raj-Hindustani

Trango Towers said:


> It rich enough as they rolled you hindus for a 1000 years and then took Pakistan from you. Your rss can change the history to your flying machines and urine as medicine for COVID 19 and cow dung to protect you from nukes but reality even you know. Have a nice day. May you remain in denial



Actually, few people from west rolled both on us (India and Pakistan)... It guess you need to confirmed you identity first if you have doubt..

You are Pakistani, Afghanistani, Turkey or any other.. Thanks

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## Trango Towers

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Actually, few people from west rolled both on us (India and Pakistan)... It guess you need to confirmed you identity first if you have doubt..
> 
> You are Pakistani, Afghanistani, Turkey or any other.. Thanks


So there was Pakistan b4 1947

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## graphican

So what happened to extended order of Spice2000? Do they feel even Spice is not enough?

Watch if Indian soldiers have also ordered emergency vitamins tablets. Suddenly they realise everything they had is insufficient - and not enough! Even their own-self is not reliable to them anymore. Watch if Indians are asking for contract soldiers to defend Indian land.

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## HalfMoon

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


>


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

graphican said:


> Watch if Indian soldiers have also ordered emergency vitamins tablets.


*And some BLUE tablets!*

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## HalfMoon

India needs to buy some balls on an emergency basis.

Since they cannot do that the next best emergency purchase would be some nappies.

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## Secular

Next purchase Death star please..

Where is local for vocal?
Order LCH LUH LCA


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## HalfMoon

Secular said:


> Next purchase Death star please..
> 
> Where is local for vocal?
> Order LCH LUH LCA



Currently India is buying Indian soldier deaths from China and Pakistan on an emergency basis.


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## Raj-Hindustani

Trango Towers said:


> So there was Pakistan b4 1947



Not pakistan but people living in Pakistan did not jump from noon directly from moon after 1947.


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## PakFactor

Taimoor Khan said:


> When people are eating dead animal on the roads in India to survive the pandemic, the audacity by the current Hindu terrorist regime to go on "buying" spree is very telling. Guess the rodents called "citizens" of India do not matter.



That’s why their called rodents. They’ll gladly throw their citizens under the bus.

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## Taimoor Khan

Suriya said:


>




Who is this chu***? Sorry don't know him.

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## Protest_again

May be Imran can beg for more f16s today.

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## PakFactor

Protest_again said:


> May be Imran can beg for more f16s today.



Dont needem May be you should run to France and Russia to cover your insecurities.

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## khanmubashir

It's guidance and range extension kit similar to spike only difference it's made in France boot Israel 
Pak too has American jdam kits and own rek and h4


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## Protest_again

PakFactor said:


> Dont needem May be you should run to France and Russia to cover your insecurities.



France and Russia are avoiding Imran like a plague.


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## PakFactor

Protest_again said:


> France and Russia are avoiding Imran like a plague.



First of all he’s not running to them and has no need.


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## Protest_again

PakFactor said:


> First of all he’s not running to them and has no need. Now run along rodent.


Has no need. Lol. Has no dough is more like.


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## Vergennes

Usable from greater and greater *safety distances*, with *unrivaled ease of use*, the air-to-ground modular weapon (AASM) "Hammer", developed by Safran Electronics & Defense, enables extremely accurate strikes. The AASM is an *autonomous* *unjammable* *interoperable* *modular *device which utilizes leverages a range of *guidance kits *(INS/GPS, INS/GPS/Infrared and INS/GPS/Laser). The AASM has been tested in numerous recent theaters and delivers an excellent cost/effectiveness ratio.

*AASM INS/GPS*







The hybrid inertial/GPS layout is the standard guidance mode for coordinates. Once the coordinates have been entered in the weapon, the inertial guidance system enable it to hit the target without requiring a GPS signal, if it is unavailable. This version is designated the SBU-38 Hammer (Smart Bomb Unit).
The AASM's modularity allows it to be used on 125, 250, 500 and 1000kg bomb bodies. Its engine provides it with range greater than 50km, meaning it can be fired at a standoff distance. Autonomous after it has been dropped, it can be used at low altitudes, cross hilly terrain or veer sharply from the firing aircraft.

*AASM INS/GPS IR*






The inertial/GPS/IR kit adds an infrared imager for terminal guidance. With a simplified model of the scene around the target first being uploaded to the weapon, this imager allows the AASM to recalculate its trajectory during the last few seconds prior to impact, using image recognition algorithms. This allows the AASM to hit its target with the highest possible accuracy, even if GPS coordinates are incorrect, or the GPS signal is unavailable. This version is called the SBU-64 Hammer.
The AASM's modularity allows it to be used on 125, 250, 500 and 1000kg bomb bodies. Its engine provides it with range greater than 50km, meaning it can be fired at a standoff distance. Autonomous after it has been dropped, it can be used at low altitudes, cross hilly terrain or veer sharply from the firing aircraft.

*AASM INS/GPS Laser*






The inertial/GPS/laser kit adds terminal laser guidance to engage agile, moving land or naval targets, illuminated by a ground or airborne laser designator. It will be deployed by French armed forces starting in 2012. This version is designated the SBU-54 Hammer (Smart Bomb Unit).
The AASM's modularity allows it to be used on 125, 250, 500 and 1000kg bomb bodies. Its engine provides it with range greater than 50km, meaning it can be fired at a standoff distance. Autonomous after it has been dropped, it can be used at low altitudes, cross hilly terrain or veer sharply from the firing aircraft.

https://www.safran-electronics-defense.com/aerospace/weapons-and-missiles/aasm

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## Trango Towers

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Not pakistan but people living in Pakistan did not jump from noon directly from moon after 1947.


Looool...noon and moon jumping are an indian think. We are firmly from this planet


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## Kraetoz

The result would always be the same. Whether its Rafale or F35. They would all go down without a sweat. Modi will come in and say if we had F35, the result would have been different. The indian public will buy the statement and the cycle will go on. Nothing will change, results would be the same unless India starts buying pilots instead of jets.


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## Trango Towers

Kraetoz said:


> The result would always be the same. Whether its Rafale or F35. They would all go down without a sweat. Modi will come in and say if we had F35, the result would have been different. The indian public will buy the statement and the cycle will go on. Nothing will change, results would be the same unless India starts buying pilots instead of jets.


Loooool



FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Agree ,they have the potential to be used against us as well. Need to be very vigilant now.*


To use something requires guts and training. We saw what their capabilities are on feb 27. Not that we should be complacent

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Trango Towers said:


> o use something requires guts and training. We saw what their capabilities are on feb 27.


*This thought does give us a bit of relieve,India is the most inept and cowardly nation on earth. *

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## Bossman

These are range extension and guidance kits attached to MK80 dumb bombs. Pakistan makes both indigenously and have already used them in combat using JF17. India have to even import MK80 dumb bombs. I love the way India is running around like a headless chicken to do all these emergency purchases. They did the same during Kargil. They even got kickbacks on purchases of coffins for their dead.

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## JohnWick

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *This thought does give us a bit of relieve,India is the most inept and cowardly nation on earth. *


The amazing thing is that how a small country like France can built such weapons,?

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

JohnWick said:


> The amazing thing is that how a small country like France can built such weapons,?


*The French have a very long and glorious colonial history, apart from being beaten by Britain all the time. They have made good military equipment in the past, our vintage mirages and agostas are testament to it. If Flown by good operators their toys are definitely deadly.*





*I do think India will need a great deal of time to master their technology.*

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## SQ8

The aasm is a really neat albeit expensive weapon - wonder how much had to be dished out for it.

But it would boost effectiveness to a large extent since it is easy to deploy and helps the Rafale be a very potent strike system.

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## The BrOkEn HeArT

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *India will be BANKRUPT very soon, already its economy is sinking.*


Why you are on a defense forum if you don't know the definition of "bankrupt"?
So many illiterates here on PDF.
This is a stupidity to make a claim of bankruptcy for a country having $500B forex reserved .

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## mig25

Raj-Hindustani said:


> At what basis you are claiming?



Dreams + Prayers. You can generously add delusion to the mix.

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## jk007

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *I do think India will need a great deal of time to master their technology.*


What is the basis for this assumption (as well as other belief in PDF that Indians are not good pilots?

Indians are doing very well in many areas. What makes you think they are bad pilots (pls don't use feb-27. Abhinandan had personal courage to do what he did).

Also, remember how Indians played cricket in 80s (snatching defeat from jaws of victory) Vs now?

How were Pakistanis playing in 80s, and how are they playing now? You see the difference in quality? Maybe, your armed forces are also like that? Degrading in quality?? A Possibility exists??


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## mqur1963

end of the day indians will be looser

if weapons' win then Russia and usa have won Afghanistan


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## Trango Towers

The BrOkEn HeArT said:


> Why you are on a defense forum if you don't know the definition of "bankrupt"?
> So many illiterates here on PDF.
> This is a stupidity to make a claim of bankruptcy for a country having $500B forex reserved .


You may leave anytime....infact do so. Go to an indian defence forum...lots of well educated indians.


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## Verve

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *India to boost Rafale capabilities with HAMMER (Highly Agile Modular Munition Extended Range)missiles under an emergency order. India has ordered them from the French Military Inventory. Hammer can hit Hard targets and Bunkers with accuracy in Mountainous landscapes like Ladakh.*
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1286245939355754496
> https://www.aninews.in/news/nationa...ncy-order20200723134530/#.XxlVoDV6CzQ.twitter
> 
> *The Indians are purchasing advance TOYS from every possible avenue to counter the Chinese. We should be vigilant as well as they may be used against us too. I hope we have contingency plans in place to counter the Indian Spending spree.*



The world is milking this cow ..

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *India will be BANKRUPT very soon, already its economy is sinking.*


Yes, Modi is already begging for a debt bailout from IMF

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Agree ,they have the potential to be used against us as well. Need to be very vigilant now.*


100% possibility.....

Now, Pak’s job is to collect the “signal signatures” of them and make them as useless as the Israili SPICE....



DANGER-ZONE said:


> I agree with your point but there are two things,
> 
> 1. We don't have money to match every single shit India does.
> 2. They are buying a missile that they haven't even used for once and they are going to deploy it successfully ASAP, I don't think so. They have had SPICE-2000 for over a decade at the time when they actually used it in real action and what was its result, 100% success in Indian Media, and 0% on the ground. So what will happen to the missile which will be deployed without any experience?
> 
> This acquisition is more of a show-off than having any strategic benefits, in the short run.


The Imperialist OEMs ensure low success rates of their stuffs (when used against any of them) at the hands of the outsiders....


----------



## ADITYA MAYUKH

Know all about the recent Hammer aquisition as well as other defence update .

HAMMER is of course a Game Changer.


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## HalfMoon

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> I do think India will need a great deal of time to master their technology.



I do not think low IQ Indians can ever master any tech they buy. 

Remember they shooting their own chopper or operating their sub with leaving the hatch open.

Welcome to the world of low IQ Indians.

The only thing that they can master is more and more stupidity.

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## Kraetoz

HalfMoon said:


> I do not think low IQ Indians can ever master any tech they buy.
> 
> Remember they shooting their own chopper or operating their sub with leaving the hatch open.
> 
> Welcome to the world of low IQ Indians.
> 
> The only thing that they can master is more and more stupidity.



That is what I have been saying they have been buying all the shiny toys when they should be buying pilots.

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## Joe1351

HalfMoon said:


> Welcome to the world of low IQ Indians.
> 
> The only thing that they can master is more and more stupidity.



Well as an American all I wanna say is Pakistanis run some of the most successfully terrorist organizations in the world while the low IQ Indians:
Sundar Pichai
CEO, Google
Company revenue: $136.8 billion (2018)
Number of employees: Nearly 99,000 (2018

Satya Nadella
CEO, Microsoft
Company revenue: $110.36 billion (2018)
Number of employees: Nearly 135,000 


Vivek Sankaran
President and CEO, Albertsons
Company revenue: $60.53 billion (2018)
Number of employees: 267,000 (2018)


Sanjay Mehrotra
President and CEO, Micron Technology
Company revenue: $30.4 billion (2018)
Number of employees: 36,000 (2018



Ajaypal Singh Banga
President and CEO, MasterCard
Company revenue: $15 billion 
Number of employees: 13,400 


Shantanu Narayan
Chairman and CEO, Adobe Inc.
Company revenue: $9 billion (2018)
Number of employees: More than 21,000


Dinesh Paliwal
President and CEO, Harman International Industries
Company revenue: $7.44 billion (2018)
Number of employees: 26,000 (2016

*
Success of Indians in the U.S. showcases importance of education*

https://news.ucsc.edu/2017/06/singh-book.html


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## HalfMoon

Joe1351 said:


> Well as an American all I wanna say is Pakistanis run some of the most successfully terrorist organizations in the world while the low IQ Indians:
> Sundar Pichai
> CEO, Google
> Company revenue: $136.8 billion (2018)
> Number of employees: Nearly 99,000 (2018
> 
> Satya Nadella
> CEO, Microsoft
> Company revenue: $110.36 billion (2018)
> Number of employees: Nearly 135,000
> 
> 
> Vivek Sankaran
> President and CEO, Albertsons
> Company revenue: $60.53 billion (2018)
> Number of employees: 267,000 (2018)
> 
> 
> Sanjay Mehrotra
> President and CEO, Micron Technology
> Company revenue: $30.4 billion (2018)
> Number of employees: 36,000 (2018
> 
> 
> 
> Ajaypal Singh Banga
> President and CEO, MasterCard
> Company revenue: $15 billion
> Number of employees: 13,400
> 
> 
> Shantanu Narayan
> Chairman and CEO, Adobe Inc.
> Company revenue: $9 billion (2018)
> Number of employees: More than 21,000
> 
> 
> Dinesh Paliwal
> President and CEO, Harman International Industries
> Company revenue: $7.44 billion (2018)
> Number of employees: 26,000 (2016
> 
> *
> Success of Indians in the U.S. showcases importance of education*
> 
> https://news.ucsc.edu/2017/06/singh-book.html




LoL

Yet we have an Indian here with US flags.


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## Hephaestus

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *India will be BANKRUPT very soon, already its economy is sinking.*


India will go bankrupt. 

_Meanwhile,
Over the last two years, coincident with slowing economic growth, Khan’s ruling Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI)-led government has added nearly $22 billion to the nation’s international debt pile. 

That figure includes $5.5 billion worth of borrowings from Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar, $6.7 billion from China and $4.8 billion from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and Asian Development Bank (ADB).

Pakistan has also sought and recently received $1.39 billion from the IMF under a rapid financing instrument facility to cushion economic shocks caused by its Covid-19 outbreak. The country had at least 96,236 cases and 1,572 deaths as of July 7. 

That injection, though, won’t likely be enough to stop the economic rot and contain spiraling inflation, which was up 11.8% from July to March 2020, according to the World Bank.
_
_https://asiatimes.com/2020/07/pakistan-on-brink-of-covid-19-financial-collapse/_

Just to keep it fair. Not everything is hunky-dory in India too. But going bankrupt. That's laughable.
_https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/indicators/indian-economy-set-for-post-covid-19-rebound-as-fdi-remains-buoyant-ihs-markit/articleshow/77127090.cms_

Also,

India's total foreign exchange (Forex) reserves stand at around US$ 516.362 billion on 10th July 2020, the highest ever, with foreign exchange assets (FCA) component at around *US$475.635 billion*, gold reserves at around US$34.729billion, SDRs (Special Drawing Rights with the IMF) of around US$1.453 billion and around US$4.545 billion reserve position, as per Reserve Bank of India's (RBI) weekly statistical supplement published on 10th July 2020.

_The Economic Survey of India 2014-15 said India could target foreign exchange reserves of US$750 billion-US$1 trillion._

We are not going bankrupt. But, you might.

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## Surya 1

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *India will be BANKRUPT very soon, already its economy is sinking.*



The country which has less than 2% of foreign exchange of India is dreaming India to be bankrupt.

One bomb on chinese position and whole set up is evaporated.

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## HalfMoon

Surya 1 said:


> The country which has less than 2% of foreign exchange of India is dreaming India to be bankrupt.
> 
> One bomb on chinese position and whole set up is evaporated.



Your debt is greater than your cash reserves.


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## Surya 1

HalfMoon said:


> Your debt is greater than your cash reserves.




Ohhh is it? Hive figures. What about Pakistan?

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## Hephaestus

HalfMoon said:


> Your debt is greater than your cash reserves.


Interesting! Why did you say your instead of ours?

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## HalfMoon

Surya 1 said:


> Ohhh is it? Hive figures. What about Pakistan?











Hephaestus said:


> Interesting! Why did you say your instead of ours?



Because it is your debt not mine.


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## Surya 1

HalfMoon said:


> View attachment 654085
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because it is your debt not mine.



Ohhh just 11 pc rice in 3 years against huge jump in foreign exchange. When idiots quotes the data, they contradicts themselves.


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## alhindi

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *India to boost Rafale capabilities with HAMMER (Highly Agile Modular Munition Extended Range)missiles under an emergency order. India has ordered them from the French Military Inventory. Hammer can hit Hard targets and Bunkers with accuracy in Mountainous landscapes like Ladakh.*
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1286245939355754496
> https://www.aninews.in/news/nationa...ncy-order20200723134530/#.XxlVoDV6CzQ.twitter
> 
> *The Indians are purchasing advance TOYS from every possible avenue to counter the Chinese. We should be vigilant as well as they may be used against us too. I hope we have contingency plans in place to counter the Indian Spending spree.*



This is for china .


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## HalfMoon

Surya 1 said:


> Ohhh just 12 pc rice in 3 years against huge jump in foreign exchange. When idiots quotes the data, they contradicts themselves.



*India's external debt rises to US$ 558.5 billion end March 2020*
Capital Market Last Updated at June 30, 2020 18:31 IST


https://www.business-standard.com/a...-5-billion-end-march-2020-120063001596_1.html

*India's forex reserves climb $3.1 bn to record $516.362 bn*
1 min read . Updated: 17 Jul 2020, 06:45 PM ISTPTI

https://www.livemint.com/news/india...1-bn-to-record-516-362-bn-11594991113683.html

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## alhindi

Raj-Hindustani said:


> At what basis you are claiming?
> 
> Look at defense expenses of Indian and Pakistan when comes to GDP... Then talk with some sense.. Thanks


They are cheer leaders .

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## HalfMoon

alhindi said:


> They are cheer leaders .



And you are cheer followers.


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## xeuss

I heard a lot about Just-in-Time Manufacturing.

First time I am hearing of Just-in-Time Arsenal.

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## HalfMoon

xeuss said:


> I heard a lot about Just-in-Time Manufacturing.
> 
> First time I am hearing of Just-in-Time Arsenal.



Just in Time Weapons

Lean(Weak) Soldiers


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## Surya 1

HalfMoon said:


> *India's external debt rises to US$ 558.5 billion end March 2020*
> Capital Market Last Updated at June 30, 2020 18:31 IST
> 
> 
> https://www.business-standard.com/a...-5-billion-end-march-2020-120063001596_1.html
> 
> *India's forex reserves climb $3.1 bn to record $516.362 bn*
> 1 min read . Updated: 17 Jul 2020, 06:45 PM ISTPTI
> 
> https://www.livemint.com/news/india...1-bn-to-record-516-362-bn-11594991113683.html



And that 585 bn USD is just 12 pc rise in 3 years which is compounded growth rate of less tha 4 pc per year. 

Against which, our foreign exchange reserve rose by 92 bn USD which is about 28pc compounded growth rate. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.econ...llion-in-h2-fy18/amp_articleshow/64893671.cms

Now if you don't want your sharp intelligence to be exposed further, just post the figures with little bit bit of study.


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## HalfMoon

Surya 1 said:


> And that 585 bn USD is just 12 pc rise in 3 years which is compounded growth rate of less tha 4 pc per year.
> 
> Against which, our foreign exchange reserve rose by 92 bn USD which is about 28pc compounded growth rate.
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.econ...llion-in-h2-fy18/amp_articleshow/64893671.cms
> 
> Now if you don't want your sharp intelligence to be exposed further, just post the figures with little bit bit of study.



Rupee to average at 77 against dollar in 2020, 80 in 2021: Fitch Solutions

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst


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## alhindi

The BrOkEn HeArT said:


> Why you are on a defense forum if you don't know the definition of "bankrupt"?
> So many illiterates here on PDF.
> This is a stupidity to make a claim of bankruptcy for a country having $500B forex reserved .


Poor butthurt guys behave in this manner.

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## Max

What is stance of French on bharat Vs China and Bharat losing the territory. They are just milking bharatis or giving some moral support too?

China should up the game as well. Maybe time to take Arunachal.


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## LeGenD

Joe1351 said:


> Well as an American all I wanna say is Pakistanis run some of the most successfully terrorist organizations in the world while the low IQ Indians:
> Sundar Pichai
> CEO, Google
> Company revenue: $136.8 billion (2018)
> Number of employees: Nearly 99,000 (2018
> 
> Satya Nadella
> CEO, Microsoft
> Company revenue: $110.36 billion (2018)
> Number of employees: Nearly 135,000
> 
> 
> Vivek Sankaran
> President and CEO, Albertsons
> Company revenue: $60.53 billion (2018)
> Number of employees: 267,000 (2018)
> 
> 
> Sanjay Mehrotra
> President and CEO, Micron Technology
> Company revenue: $30.4 billion (2018)
> Number of employees: 36,000 (2018
> 
> 
> 
> Ajaypal Singh Banga
> President and CEO, MasterCard
> Company revenue: $15 billion
> Number of employees: 13,400
> 
> 
> Shantanu Narayan
> Chairman and CEO, Adobe Inc.
> Company revenue: $9 billion (2018)
> Number of employees: More than 21,000
> 
> 
> Dinesh Paliwal
> President and CEO, Harman International Industries
> Company revenue: $7.44 billion (2018)
> Number of employees: 26,000 (2016
> 
> *
> Success of Indians in the U.S. showcases importance of education*
> 
> https://news.ucsc.edu/2017/06/singh-book.html


Why you accusing Pakistani of running terrorist organizations in the world? Did Pakistan create ISIS and its offshoots? Do you live in a cave or something? You need to get your facts straight.

Some examples FYI:

Pakistani American billionnaire Shahid Khan: https://www.opf.org.pk/prides/shahid-khan/

Pakistani American startup legend Zia Chishti: https://www.brunswickgroup.com/zia-chishti-pakistan-i9334/

Pakistani American Business Council by and large: https://abcpk.org.pk/executive-committee/

Pakistani American Mayor Sadaf Jaffer: https://www.browngirlmagazine.com/2019/03/in-conversation-with-sadaf-jaffer/

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE




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## Surya 1

HalfMoon said:


> Rupee to average at 77 against dollar in 2020, 80 in 2021: Fitch Solutions
> 
> https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst



You accept that you lost the discussion of foreign exchange? If yes, we can move to other topic.

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## HalfMoon

Max said:


> What is stance of French on bharat Vs China and Bharat losing the territory. They are just milking bharatis or giving some moral support too?
> 
> China should up the game as well. Maybe time to take Arunachal.



Taking Arunachal is a piece of cake for China but People of Arunachal are hostile towards China. It will take time to change the opinion in favor of China. When that happens Arunachal will be annexed.

Currently the Opinion in Kashmir and Ladakh is favorable towards Pakistan & China hence the plan starts here.

Kashmir & Kargil will go to Pakistan and Ladakh will go to China.

This will be the new map of India by the end of 2020.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1285503764951183361


Surya 1 said:


> You accept that you lost the discussion of foreign exchange? If yes, we can move to other topic.



Low IQ Indians do not even realize when they have lost the argument. Delusional at best.

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## Vergennes

*With just days to go before India’s first Rafale jets arrive in country, the Indian Air Force has exercised emergency procurement powers to contract the French Hammer AASM precision strike weapon system for the aircraft. *

In a decision fully in keeping with an emerging conflict scenario with China in eastern Ladakh — and with disengagement efforts hitting multiple roadblocks — choosing the Hammer isn’t surprising. But you’re a Livefist reader, and obviously you expect context. So let’s begin.

To begin with, the Hammer, developed by French conglomerate Safran (which also builds the Rafale’s M88 turbofan engines) has always officially been an option to the IAF in the Rafale package. In 2017, months after India had contracted 36 Rafale jets, *Livefist *reported details of what India had chosen, noting that the IAF had optioned the Hammer system for a possible decision once Rafale deliveries begin, but that it would hit the ground running with Israeli Spice guidance kits to begin with. Read that full report here.

In October last year, on the day the first Rafales were handed over to the Indian Air Force, *Livefist* reported the list of add-on weapons and systems that the IAF could opt for now that the jets were flying in Indian colours.

The IAF’s 2016 decision to choose the Israeli Spice precision bomb kits over the Hammer was based on cost — the French system is significantly more costly, but brings to bear additional capabilities, including effective deployability in low-level flight. It wasn’t the first time the Hammer had lost out to the Israeli Spice weapons family.

In 2012, the Hammer and Spice went head to head in an Indian Air Force quest for new 1,000 kg precision strike weaponry for its Mirage 2000 jets that were being separately upgraded. There too, the Israeli won out on cost (the Hammer didn’t have a 1,000 kg version for test, and therefore had to be tested on a 250 kg unit). Spice 2000 bombs would go on to see action in India’s air strikes on a Pakistani terror camp in Balakot in February 2019. The Indian Air Force, incidentally, has also used Ladakh-triggered emergency procurement powers to order more Spice 2000 weapons for its Mirage 2000s.

But if the IAF had chosen the Spice on its Rafales in 2016, why the need to order the Hammer system now? To understand the decision, it must be known that acquiring weapons have three broad cost components — the cost of the weapon itself, the cost of integration (software and hardware), and finally the cost of testing & certifying the system. A senior IAF officer tells *Livefist *that while work on integrating Spice weapons on the IAF Rafales has been underway in France in terms of software code, the bulk of the integration and crucial testing will necessarily take place in India. But how long would that take from the time the aircraft arrive? To provide perspective, it took 18 months to fully integrate, test and clear the Spice on IAF Mirages. The IAF’s rationale, therefore, in acquiring the Hammer system now, is that savings made on integration and testing the weapon — the Hammer is already fully certified on the Rafale — will justify the higher cost of the system itself. Once contracted, Hammer systems will likely begin deliveries quickly, possibly from production inventory intended for the French forces.

In France, Indian Air Force pilots have had extensive exposure to the the Hammer system already. In 2017, *Livefist *conducted a series of interviews with French Navy Rafale pilots who had deployed Hammer bombs on targets in Iraq. Read that full story here.

While the Hammer procurement has clearly been green-lit keeping in view the current India-China tensions in Ladakh, and the fact that inbound Rafales would be bereft of a tactical stand-off strike weapon for some time, there are likely to be more weapons contracts for the Rafale fleet going forward. The IAF Rafale’s more capable weapons — the Meteor BVRAAM and SCALP cruise missile — have been contracted in fairly modest numbers, part of an effort to keep overall costs down. It is expected, therefore, that the IAF will look to add numbers of both these systems in the near term as Rafale deliveries add up.

The IAF’s decision to push through an emergency purchase of the Hammer was scooped by _India Today_ executive editor Sandeep Unnithan,who made a mention of it on *Livefist *Editor Shiv Aroor’s news show 5ive Live on Wednesday, a day before the story was reported on other media. Watch that full broadcast here:

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/07/heres-why-the-iaf-has-chosen-the-hammer-for-its-rafale.html

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## Vergennes

Usable from greater and greater *safety distances*, with *unrivaled ease of use*, the air-to-ground modular weapon (AASM) "Hammer", developed by Safran Electronics & Defense, enables extremely accurate strikes. The AASM is an *autonomous* *unjammable* *interoperable* *modular *device which utilizes leverages a range of *guidance kits *(INS/GPS, INS/GPS/Infrared and INS/GPS/Laser). The AASM has been tested in numerous recent theaters and delivers an excellent cost/effectiveness ratio.

*AASM INS/GPS*






The hybrid inertial/GPS layout is the standard guidance mode for coordinates. Once the coordinates have been entered in the weapon, the inertial guidance system enable it to hit the target without requiring a GPS signal, if it is unavailable. This version is designated the SBU-38 Hammer (Smart Bomb Unit).
The AASM's modularity allows it to be used on 125, 250, 500 and 1000kg bomb bodies. Its engine provides it with range greater than 50km, meaning it can be fired at a standoff distance. Autonomous after it has been dropped, it can be used at low altitudes, cross hilly terrain or veer sharply from the firing aircraft.

*AASM INS/GPS IR*






The inertial/GPS/IR kit adds an infrared imager for terminal guidance. With a simplified model of the scene around the target first being uploaded to the weapon, this imager allows the AASM to recalculate its trajectory during the last few seconds prior to impact, using image recognition algorithms. This allows the AASM to hit its target with the highest possible accuracy, even if GPS coordinates are incorrect, or the GPS signal is unavailable. This version is called the SBU-64 Hammer.
The AASM's modularity allows it to be used on 125, 250, 500 and 1000kg bomb bodies. Its engine provides it with range greater than 50km, meaning it can be fired at a standoff distance. Autonomous after it has been dropped, it can be used at low altitudes, cross hilly terrain or veer sharply from the firing aircraft.

*AASM INS/GPS Laser*






The inertial/GPS/laser kit adds terminal laser guidance to engage agile, moving land or naval targets, illuminated by a ground or airborne laser designator. It will be deployed by French armed forces starting in 2012. This version is designated the SBU-54 Hammer (Smart Bomb Unit).
The AASM's modularity allows it to be used on 125, 250, 500 and 1000kg bomb bodies. Its engine provides it with range greater than 50km, meaning it can be fired at a standoff distance. Autonomous after it has been dropped, it can be used at low altitudes, cross hilly terrain or veer sharply from the firing aircraft.

https://www.safran-electronics-defense.com/aerospace/weapons-and-missiles/aasm

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## Dil Pakistan

Undoubtedly a fantastic weapon....but the weapon itself is not the real question here.

The real mountain to climb is, can IAF press the button on Rafale to release this weapon against a Chinese target?

....and if so, are they, and the whole of India, will then they be ready to receive what comes their way from CHinese side?

This is the conundrum that India has to solve.....and so far they don't have an answer.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*Great weapon systems from France, but alas For a Few Dollars More the French forget all their humanitarian principles. Making money and selling weapons to nations when they are on the brink of War is immoral, i guess Western principles are redundant in these situations and Stoking the flames is the need of the hour. *

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## Suriya

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Great weapon systems from France, but alas For a Few Dollars More the French lose all their humanitarian principles. Making money and selling weapons to nations when they are on the brink is immoral, i guess Western principles are redundant in these situations.*


 This bought with hard earned money by India and not received as part military aid for doing any super powers bidding.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1286673120183513088

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## Prince Kassad

HAMMER is a PGM and not a Missile


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## Trango Towers

Suriya said:


> This bought with hard earned money by India and not received as part military aid for doing any super powers bidding.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1286673120183513088


Yet indian is the global leader in aid recieved

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## Suriya

Trango Towers said:


> Yet indian is the global leader in aid recieved


*Huge difference between civilian developmental aid and military aid. *


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## Trango Towers

Suriya said:


> *Huge difference between civilian developmental aid and military aid. *


Ofcourse....when you have starving people and people dying of COVID and no money but you have moneh for weapons...makes perfect sense to me

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## Suriya

Trango Towers said:


> Ofcourse....when you have starving people and people dying of COVID and no money but you have moneh for weapons...makes perfect sense to me


Well... pakistan has both. Starving people and people dying of COVID and no money for buying any weapons either. That's why you are angry.

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## Protest_again

Suriya said:


> Well... pakistan has both. Starving people and people dying of COVID and no money for buying any weapons either. That's why you are angry.


They got handsome dud(e) for a PM.

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## dbc

Prince Kassad said:


> HAMMER is a PGM and not a Missile



Not quite, it can be configured with a rocket motor so boosting is an option.

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## Sunny4pak

Zarvan said:


>


Zarvan Bhai, Hamary Hamsaey tu aisay Rafale ki arrival & deployment ko ley kr uchal rahay hain, jaisay rafale ky anay si IAF LAC kia pooray China ko apnay Qabzay mein kar ley gi, aur china Rafale k Darr sy LAC kia porra Khitta hi choor dy ga.

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## HalfMoon

alphapak said:


> How long does it take for pilots to be fully trained on a new fighter jet?



IAF Rafales will not be operational ready at least until 2025.

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## Ashraf. M

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Great weapon systems from France, but alas For a Few Dollars More the French lose all their humanitarian principles. Making money and selling weapons to nations when they are on the brink of War is immoral, i guess Western principles are redundant in these situations and Stoking the flames is the need of the hour. *



West helping countries to fight CN to see its bloody nose.


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## PDF

If they went after Hammer after rejecting it in the past, it means IAF Spice doesn't give a required or specific capability which forced it to reconsider buying under emergency. Israel should work further on Spice even if its price has to be increased so that it can satisfy its clients.

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## Trango Towers

Suriya said:


> Well... pakistan has both. Starving people and people dying of COVID and no money for buying any weapons either. That's why you are angry.


But pakistan can still whoop your ***. Remember feb 27....
If we only had rafales 

Never forget muslims ruled you for a 1000 years and then took Pakistan from you.

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## Suriya

Trango Towers said:


> But pakistan can still whoop your ***. Remember feb 27....
> If we only had rafales


*If u forget before 27th feb, there was 26th feb.*

*And on 26th Feb when IAF struck Balakot in KP province of pakistan, it faced ZERO counter attack. Both PAF and ground air defence were sleeping. 


On 27th when PAF retaliated, it had to break ROE and fire long range missiles to disperse Indian CAPs before PAF could launch SoW from within it borders. **And when our Mig21 took off from the vale of Srinagar, it crossed LoC unimpeded before being shot dowm. Slow claps.*

*Yes, If we only had rafales and had congress party not dillydallied buying 126 rafales for 10 years, ur jets would have been shot out of the sky from 150Km with meteors missile. It was political statement made by Modi on the eve of elections.*


*



Never forget muslims ruled you for a 1000 years and then took Pakistan from you.

Click to expand...

*
*See your condition and state of Islamic republic of Pakistan and you have gall to say you have ruled over anything.*

*You saying we muslims ruled India for 1000 years during Mughal rule is very similar to if a pakistani Masih says we ruled India for 200 year during British Raj. Utterly Hilarious.*

*PS: Also let me remind u Pakistan did nothing after Aug 5th Kabza of Kashmir by India for which kashmiris and i are very disappointed. @El Sidd *

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## alphapak

HalfMoon said:


> IAF Rafales will not be operational ready at least until 2025.



If you look at post 3 the guy is saying 6 months is enough for experienced pilot.
Don't know how true is that, only air force guys can answer this.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Suriya said:


> See your condition and state of Islamic republic of Pakistan and you have gall to say you have ruled over anything.


*Pakistan still harbours descendants of those conquerors that whooped your sorry a..ses for a 1000 years. The Turks ,Persians and the Arabs have deep roots in our society. Our historical saints,Sayyeds,architects, warriors and businessmen hail from the Central and Mid Eastern heritage. Just do some research on the remnants of the conquers of India. Yes some are still in India, wheather we are locals or foreigners we share the same Historical,Cultural and Religious ties. Our language URDU is the amalgamation of all these cultures.*

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## HalfMoon

alphapak said:


> If you look at post 3 the guy is saying 6 months is enough for experienced pilot.
> Don't know how true is that, only air force guys can answer this.



@NAVDEEP DHALIWAL does not know.

The Rafales that IAF will receive this month will be missing the following key features. These features will be only available 6 months after all 36 fighters have been delivered. 

So Technical Indian Rafales will be combat ready only after 2023. This is even as we discount pilot's skill, experience and tactics in using Rafales.

The enhanced capabilities in the Rafale fighters sought by India will see 14 India Specific Enhancements Exclusive to be incorporated to India bound 36 Rafale fighter jets which will be added by the company once the delivery of all the jets is completed by 2022. 14 India Specific Enhancements for India bound Rafale fighter jets have been listed out

1) Upgraded Sigma 95N INS: A Hybrid inertial navigation/GPS system used on the Dassault Rafale fighter jets will now support Indian developed Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS ) also called as NAVIC which provides accurate real-time positioning and timing services for India and a region extending 1,500 km around it.

2) Upgraded RBE-2 AESA-MMR: RBE2 AESA radar developed by Thales will now feature Airborne weather radar which will come in handy to predict more timely and accurate weather conditions.

3) Enhanced OBOGS: Rafale fighter jet comes fitted with an onboard oxygen generation system (OBOGS) which suppresses the need for liquid oxygen re-filling or ground support for oxygen production, but India has asked for Enhanced OBOGS system which will have enhanced capacity supporting additional filters.

4) Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS): Thales developed Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) contains Air Traffic Surveillance Awareness capabilities like a Terrain Avoidance Warning System (TAWS) which will improve the level of awareness and comfort of the flight crew.

5) Tweaked M88 Engines: Rafale fighter jet which uses M88-4E engines will receive tweaks to its fuel starter so that engine can operate at optimum even at sub-zero high altitude air base of Indian air force.

6) IESI (Integrated Electronic Standby Instruments): Thales developed IESI will be installed to operate in a particular set of environmental conditions and features accurate low airspeed measurement to cope with the flight envelope while avoiding additional weight due to external air data computer.

7) Quad-Pack Ejectors: Rafale fighter jet will be getting French developed Quad-Pack Ejectors which can be used for low weight Stand-Off Weapon both of Indian and foreign origins.

8) X-Guard fiber-optic towed decoy system: India bound Rafale fighter jets will be getting X-Guard fibre-optic towed decoy system which is designed to counter air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles. Each aircraft carries two X-Guard towed decoy and can be released when the aircraft approaches a saturated area or when a threat is detected. The most suitable countermeasure is transmitted to the X-Guard by the aircraft’s electronic countermeasures system. The fiber-optic connection to the aircraft allows accurate jamming, says Rafael.

9) Tweaks to SPECTRA Electronic Warfare System: India specific threat libraries will be added and SPECTRA EW System will also feature Low- Medium and High band apertures to deal with low observable aircraft.

10) TARGO-II Helmet Mounted Display Systems Developed by ELBIT

11) Integration of LITENING G4 Target Acquisition Pod which are already used by Indian Air Force for its frontline fighter aircraft, including the Su-30 MKI, MiG-29

12) Integration of Rafael’s SPICE 1000 EO/GPS-guided munitions

13 ) MBDA developed Meteor BVRAAM and ALARM Anti-radiation missile

14) Assistance to be provided to local Indian Public sector companies for Integration of Weapons ranging from India’s Astra BVRAAM to High-speed low drag (HSLD) bombs with the aircraft’s weapons control system. India bound Rafale fighter jets are also rumored to later get specific Indian enhancements which can come handy in the delivery of Nuclear weapons, which obviously will not be confirmed by Indian or French governments.

https://idrw.org/14-india-specific-enhancements-exclusive-to-india-bound-rafale-fighter-jets/ .

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## The Maverick

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Pakistan still harbours descendants of those conquerors that whooped your sorry a..ses for a 1000 years. The Turks ,Persians and the Arabs have deep roots in our society. Our historical saints,Sayyeds,architects, warriors and businessmen hail from the Central and Mid Eastern heritage. Just do some research on the remnants of the conquers of India. Yes some are still in India, wheather we are locals or foreigners we share the same Historical,Cultural and Religious ties. Our language URDU is the amalgamation of all these cultures.*




I have seen how the Arabs treat pakistanis in DUBAI ............and it is not nice or respectful believe me 

The persians Arabs and Turks see themselves as different and TOTALLY SUPERIOR to you pakistanis 

Other than religion Which is half the world THE arabs persians & Turks treat you as a alien race to them

ANYWAY

Rafale is bringing an array of weapons to INDIA 

Meteore
Scalp 
Hammer 

magnficient looking fighter

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## Trango Towers

Suriya said:


> *If u forget before 27th feb, there was 26th feb.*
> 
> *And on 26th Feb when IAF struck Balakot in KP province of pakistan, it faced ZERO counter attack. Both PAF and ground air defence were sleeping.
> 
> 
> On 27th when PAF retaliated, it had to break ROE and fire long range missiles to disperse Indian CAPs before PAF could launch SoW from within it borders. **And when our Mig21 took off from the vale of Srinagar, it crossed LoC unimpeded before being shot dowm. Slow claps.*
> 
> *Yes, If we only had rafales and had congress party not dillydallied buying 126 rafales for 10 years, ur jets would have been shot out of the sky from 150Km with meteors missile. It was political statement made by Modi on the eve of elections.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *See your condition and state of Islamic republic of Pakistan and you have gall to say you have ruled over anything.*
> 
> *You saying we muslims ruled India for 1000 years during Mughal rule is very similar to if a pakistani Masih says we ruled India for 200 year during British Raj. Utterly Hilarious.*
> 
> *PS: Also let me remind u Pakistan did nothing after Aug 5th Kabza of Kashmir by India for which kashmiris and i are very disappointed. @El Sidd *


26 feb....loool.....loool

Yes you struck the target and killed 300 people and achieved all your objectives...gosh now I know you are as dumb as modi



Suriya said:


> *If u forget before 27th feb, there was 26th feb.*
> 
> *And on 26th Feb when IAF struck Balakot in KP province of pakistan, it faced ZERO counter attack. Both PAF and ground air defence were sleeping.
> 
> 
> On 27th when PAF retaliated, it had to break ROE and fire long range missiles to disperse Indian CAPs before PAF could launch SoW from within it borders. **And when our Mig21 took off from the vale of Srinagar, it crossed LoC unimpeded before being shot dowm. Slow claps.*
> 
> *Yes, If we only had rafales and had congress party not dillydallied buying 126 rafales for 10 years, ur jets would have been shot out of the sky from 150Km with meteors missile. It was political statement made by Modi on the eve of elections.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *See your condition and state of Islamic republic of Pakistan and you have gall to say you have ruled over anything.*
> 
> *You saying we muslims ruled India for 1000 years during Mughal rule is very similar to if a pakistani Masih says we ruled India for 200 year during British Raj. Utterly Hilarious.*
> 
> *PS: Also let me remind u Pakistan did nothing after Aug 5th Kabza of Kashmir by India for which kashmiris and i are very disappointed. @El Sidd *


Qabza.???? We have all the northern areas that we took by force from you including azad Kashmir. You have 700000 troops in kashmir alone and you are hated there. Your suicide rate is higher than your favourite past time...rape.
You are more delusional than modi


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

The Maverick said:


> The persians Arabs and Turks see themselves as different and TOTALLY SUPERIOR to you pakistanis


*My dear most learned INDIAN friend nearly one fourth of our population trace their ancestry from Far East, Mid East and Central Asia. Most Surnames with Sayyad, Shah,Bukhari,Baig,Gilani,Qureshi,Hashmi and hundreds more have ancestral connections beyond this Regions. Regarding mistreatment of the South Asians by the Newly Wealthy Arabs, let them merry for the moment. They will soon be overwhelmed by their so called captives.*


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## alhindi

HalfMoon said:


> Taking Arunachal is a piece of cake for China but People of Arunachal are hostile towards China. It will take time to change the opinion in favor of China. When that happens Arunachal will be annexed.
> 
> Currently the Opinion in Kashmir and Ladakh is favorable towards Pakistan & China hence the plan starts here.
> 
> Kashmir & Kargil will go to Pakistan and Ladakh will go to China.
> 
> This will be the new map of India by the end of 2020.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1285503764951183361
> 
> 
> Low IQ Indians do not even realize when they have lost the argument. Delusional at best.



Let the master china take some action and give kashmir to cheerleaders .


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## HalfMoon

alhindi said:


> Let the master china take some action and give kashmir to cheerleaders .



Patience!

Chinese salami slicing is in progress.

India is


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## alhindi

HalfMoon said:


> Patience!
> 
> Chinese salami slicing is in progress.
> 
> India is


Waiting from the last 70 years bangladesh gone .cheerleaders must be tired .


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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

*Astra JV to Start Production of IAF-selected BNET Software Defined Radio in October*
July 5, 2020 Editor-Defence Industry
*By ARIE EGOZI*

Tel Aviv: The local production, of the Rafael BNET software defined radio selected by Indian Air Force (IAF), in India will begin in October.

The systems will be manufactured by Astra Rafael Communication System (ARC),a joint venture of Israeli company Rafael and an Indian company Astra Microwave.

The facility operates at Hardware Technology Park close to Hyderabad international airport.
The Israeli company will supply 1,000 systems that will be integrated into all the IAF combat aircraft.

The 5th generation BNET is the main communication system of the Israeli Air Force’s existing and future platforms.
It replaces existing radio systems installed in aircraft and according to the Israeli company while half in size and weight, it offers a very wide communications channel for data.

According to Gideon Weiss, Director of marketing and business development , air and C4I division, the SDR system optimises the spectrum utilisation, while the use of advanced waveforms deliver high speed networking, supporting live video, image transfer, voice and data.

According to Rafael, the BNET communication systems have been selected by the air forces of Brazil and Colombia, and is now competing in other countries.

The senior Rafael official added that the BNET allows the aircraft to achieve a fully networked communication system between airborne platforms and ground naval forces. The system is seamless and it allows the transfer of data including video images in unprecedented rates.

The Israeli system has been selected after a competition with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), US company Rockwell Collins and Rhode & Schwartz of Germany.

Rafael says that the use of ad-hoc networking optimises the spectrum utilisation, while the use of advanced waveforms deliver high speed networking, supporting live video, image transfer, voice and data. Reliance on SDR also ensures ‘future-proof’ upgradability and interfacing with legacy systems.

As per Rafael, the system that has been selected is based on a new family of SDR systems developed by the company in recent years.

Rafael began the development of BNET as a ground based network, and later adapted the system for airborne and air-ground applications. The company has transferred considerable elements of the system development and production to India, enabling local partners to share a major part of the programme in the current phase and also benefit from its future spinoffs.

According to Rafael, the efficiency of BNET as an adaptable network means that the airborne communications could provide in the future the basis for advanced terrestrial communications, supporting land-based applications as well.

_The writer is an Israel-based freelance journalist

https://www.raksha-anirveda.com/raf...ected-bnet-software-defined-radio-in-october/
_

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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

IAF in Feb 2019 signed an order for 1400 BNETs of which 400 to be direvtly suppplied by Israle and 1000 from this JV. All to be delovered by Sept 2021 (30 months).

BNET SD radios are impossible to jam or eavesdrop on:



> Rafael is thus proposing its BNET 5th generation radio suite, “which I might define as the ‘military Telegram" (a secure messaging app for smartphones), Aron Dovrat says, “the BNET generates a cloud in which every single radio is both a repeater and a modem.” Not only, every single item is also a spectral analyser, thus in case of jamming or interception the whole system automatically shifts on a different frequency. Maximising spectrum efficiency led to the availability of a wide band that allows transmitting streaming videos, while the system can easily be connected to the internet when needed.



https://www.edrmagazine.eu/rafael-proposals-for-colombia-and-latin-america

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## Safriz

Results of 27th February 2019.
You can thank us later.

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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

It has error removal algorithms and is also a tactical datalink for exchanging sensor data, targeting data and videos/images.


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## SSG_Commando

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> It has error removal algorithms and is also a tactical datalink for exchanging sensor data, targeting data and videos/images.


Everything these Indians buy or make are out of this world. Tactical data link, jam proof technology, Su-30 the raptor of east, LCA the fighter that can compete F-35 and beyond, Arjun the holy grail of mechanised division etc.

But when they try to execute they get whipped on the *** so hard that even adversaries smile. Such is the nature of Indian hooligans



SSG_Commando said:


> Everything these Indians buy or make are out of this world. Tactical data link, jam proof technology, Su-30 the raptor of east, LCA the fighter that can compete F-35 and beyond, Arjun the holy grail of mechanised division etc.
> 
> But when they try to execute they get whipped on the *** so hard that even adversaries smile. Such is the nature of Indian hooligans


These dum and fools are buying Russian tech and integrating Nato standard equipment in them. I can only smile and laugh. They love to ride on multiple countries at same time, typical desi mentality.

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## NAVDEEP DHALIWAL

HalfMoon said:


> @NAVDEEP DHALIWAL does not know.
> 
> The Rafales that IAF will receive this month will be missing the following key features. These features will be only available 6 months after all 36 fighters have been delivered.
> 
> So Technical Indian Rafales will be combat ready only after 2023. This is even as we discount pilot's skill, experience and tactics in using Rafales.
> 
> The enhanced capabilities in the Rafale fighters sought by India will see 14 India Specific Enhancements Exclusive to be incorporated to India bound 36 Rafale fighter jets which will be added by the company once the delivery of all the jets is completed by 2022. 14 India Specific Enhancements for India bound Rafale fighter jets have been listed out
> 
> 1) Upgraded Sigma 95N INS: A Hybrid inertial navigation/GPS system used on the Dassault Rafale fighter jets will now support Indian developed Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS ) also called as NAVIC which provides accurate real-time positioning and timing services for India and a region extending 1,500 km around it.
> 
> 2) Upgraded RBE-2 AESA-MMR: RBE2 AESA radar developed by Thales will now feature Airborne weather radar which will come in handy to predict more timely and accurate weather conditions.
> 
> 3) Enhanced OBOGS: Rafale fighter jet comes fitted with an onboard oxygen generation system (OBOGS) which suppresses the need for liquid oxygen re-filling or ground support for oxygen production, but India has asked for Enhanced OBOGS system which will have enhanced capacity supporting additional filters.
> 
> 4) Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS): Thales developed Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) contains Air Traffic Surveillance Awareness capabilities like a Terrain Avoidance Warning System (TAWS) which will improve the level of awareness and comfort of the flight crew.
> 
> 5) Tweaked M88 Engines: Rafale fighter jet which uses M88-4E engines will receive tweaks to its fuel starter so that engine can operate at optimum even at sub-zero high altitude air base of Indian air force.
> 
> 6) IESI (Integrated Electronic Standby Instruments): Thales developed IESI will be installed to operate in a particular set of environmental conditions and features accurate low airspeed measurement to cope with the flight envelope while avoiding additional weight due to external air data computer.
> 
> 7) Quad-Pack Ejectors: Rafale fighter jet will be getting French developed Quad-Pack Ejectors which can be used for low weight Stand-Off Weapon both of Indian and foreign origins.
> 
> 8) X-Guard fiber-optic towed decoy system: India bound Rafale fighter jets will be getting X-Guard fibre-optic towed decoy system which is designed to counter air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles. Each aircraft carries two X-Guard towed decoy and can be released when the aircraft approaches a saturated area or when a threat is detected. The most suitable countermeasure is transmitted to the X-Guard by the aircraft’s electronic countermeasures system. The fiber-optic connection to the aircraft allows accurate jamming, says Rafael.
> 
> 9) Tweaks to SPECTRA Electronic Warfare System: India specific threat libraries will be added and SPECTRA EW System will also feature Low- Medium and High band apertures to deal with low observable aircraft.
> 
> 10) TARGO-II Helmet Mounted Display Systems Developed by ELBIT
> 
> 11) Integration of LITENING G4 Target Acquisition Pod which are already used by Indian Air Force for its frontline fighter aircraft, including the Su-30 MKI, MiG-29
> 
> 12) Integration of Rafael’s SPICE 1000 EO/GPS-guided munitions
> 
> 13 ) MBDA developed Meteor BVRAAM and ALARM Anti-radiation missile
> 
> 14) Assistance to be provided to local Indian Public sector companies for Integration of Weapons ranging from India’s Astra BVRAAM to High-speed low drag (HSLD) bombs with the aircraft’s weapons control system. India bound Rafale fighter jets are also rumored to later get specific Indian enhancements which can come handy in the delivery of Nuclear weapons, which obviously will not be confirmed by Indian or French governments.
> 
> https://idrw.org/14-india-specific-enhancements-exclusive-to-india-bound-rafale-fighter-jets/ .



These are extra enhancements India asked for which will be incorporated in time once these are tested and Cerrtified. That doesn't mean Rafale can't work.
Take example of engine enhancement, if engine can't work whats the point of delievery ? They can very well, keep the them stored in France. Lol
Don't go with media, iAzf would be stupid to do that, they would rather get default aircrafts and pay for enhanceme extra if that was the case.

As I said rafael will only be used in a pinch or last resort. Otherwise su30 and 29 etc r good enough for now.


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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

SSG_Commando said:


> Everything these Indians buy or make are out of this world. Tactical data link, jam proof technology, Su-30 the raptor of east, LCA the fighter that can compete F-35 and beyond, Arjun the holy grail of mechanised division etc.


Not our problem if Pak has no counters to such advanced tech.



SSG_Commando said:


> But when they try to execute they get whipped on the *** so hard that even adversaries smile. Such is the nature of Indian hooligans


Nice daydreams


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## Han Patriot

Why is India so anxious and panicky when NOT A SINGLE INCH IS LOST?


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## SSG_Commando

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> Not our problem if Pak has no counters to such advanced tech.
> 
> 
> Nice daydreams


If I am daydreaming then what about Su-30 the raptor of east. Why do you cry of its poor quality and gone for Rafael? You havent gotten over LCA yet rather started HANUMAN generation fighter jet?
Some serious questions. Which data-link have you finalized? Israeli radios, last time I heard they were in Su-30s?

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## Daghalodi

SSG_Commando said:


> If I am daydreaming then what about Su-30 the raptor of east. Why do you cry of its poor quality and gone for Rafael? You havent gotten over LCA yet rather started HANUMAN generation fighter jet?
> Some serious questions. Which data-link have you finalized? Israeli radios, last time I heard they were in Su-30s?



Never take indian BS seriously!!

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## Mrc

Nothing is impossible to jam.
Such word does not exist in science

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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

Mrc said:


> Nothing is impossible to jam.
> Such word does not exist in science


Not possible to jam BNET except with quantum jammers (still 15 years away).



SSG_Commando said:


> If I am daydreaming then what about Su-30 the raptor of east. Why do you cry of its poor quality and gone for Rafael? You havent gotten over LCA yet rather started HANUMAN generation fighter jet?
> Some serious questions. Which data-link have you finalized? Israeli radios, last time I heard they were in Su-30s?


Su-30 MKI still eagle of the east. Rafale is better just like F-22 is better than F-15. LCA is operational.

We never had any Israeli radios on jets before and also BNET will also be datalinks core


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## macnurv

India, the Sheikh Chilli Nation.

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## NAVDEEP DHALIWAL

Han Patriot said:


> Why is India so anxious and panicky when NOT A SINGLE INCH IS LOST?


Its not panic. Indian defense buying policy is fukd up. Thanks to China now army has perfect opening to get things with speed, which otherwise would have taken years to acquire. 
All the purchasing you are seeing have been stuck in some file of a politicians office. 
Take eg of su29, atgm etc army asking for them past many years


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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

Nice thread got featured.


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## barora

SSG_Commando said:


> Everything these Indians buy or make are out of this world. Tactical data link, jam proof technology, Su-30 the raptor of east, LCA the fighter that can compete F-35 and beyond, Arjun the holy grail of mechanised division etc.
> 
> But when they try to execute they get whipped on the *** so hard that even adversaries smile. Such is the nature of Indian hooligans
> 
> 
> These dum and fools are buying Russian tech and integrating Nato standard equipment in them. I can only smile and laugh. They love to ride on multiple countries at same time, typical desi mentality.


While you belittle us for your one day achievements we are silently working towards becoming designer and manufacturer of defense related stuff.

I find it funny when you belittle Tejas program, while you are yet to start building your own defence infrastructure.

You have to make lot of sacrifice and accept lot of setbacks while building capabilities in defence industry. Someday you will hope you had started something like Tejas on your own too. Probably in this decade. Have as many laughs as you want, while you are at Chinese/American mercy for your defense, we are very well diversified so no one nation can dictate our foreign policy.

While you sing Chinese tune, after the American song.

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## TNT

Who says they cannot be jammed?


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## Han Patriot

NAVDEEP DHALIWAL said:


> Its not panic. Indian defense buying policy is fukd up. Thanks to China now army has perfect opening to get things with speed, which otherwise would have taken years to acquire.
> All the purchasing you are seeing have been stuck in some file of a politicians office.
> Take eg of su29, atgm etc army asking for them past many years


Wow, Indians can really view every fck up as positively man. I like this. So when we capture more land, then India will start making rifles? Lol


----------



## polanski

India to arm Rafale with HAMMER precision strike missile: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...-rafale-with-hammer-precision-strike-missile/


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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

T|/|T said:


> Who says they cannot be jammed?


Commom sense and science.


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## Type59

barora said:


> While you belittle us for your one day achievements we are silently working towards becoming designer and manufacturer of defense related stuff.
> 
> I find it funny when you belittle Tejas program, while you are yet to start building your own defence infrastructure.
> 
> You have to make lot of sacrifice and accept lot of setbacks while building capabilities in defence industry. Someday you will hope you had started something like Tejas on your own too. Probably in this decade. Have as many laughs as you want, while you are at Chinese/American mercy for your defense, we are very well diversified so no one nation can dictate our foreign policy.
> 
> While you sing Chinese tune, after the American song.



Rich coming from you guys. You are dependent on America for equipment. Tejas has an American engine.

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## khanmubashir

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> Commom sense and science.


Actually that's called chutyabhakt bs sonny

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## NAVDEEP DHALIWAL

Han Patriot said:


> Wow, Indians can really view every fck up as positively man. I like this. So when we capture more land, then India will start making rifles? Lol


You misquoted me. For a war India has enough weapons, heck even Pakistan has enough weapon. But we could have been in better position if defence policy had less red tape.
All the weapons such 30 , rafaels , guns etc not going against China this year . We will fight with what we got and its enough to cause a lot of damage to china.
Army is using this situation to clear the stuck files. Thats all. Don't read click bait headlines of indian media. Lol they would call rafael a turkey next year if it sells their TRP


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## HalfMoon

NAVDEEP DHALIWAL said:


> These are extra enhancements India asked for which will be incorporated in time once these are tested and Cerrtified. That doesn't mean Rafale can't work.
> Take example of engine enhancement, if engine can't work whats the point of delievery ? They can very well, keep the them stored in France. Lol
> Don't go with media, iAzf would be stupid to do that, they would rather get default aircrafts and pay for enhanceme extra if that was the case.
> 
> As I said rafael will only be used in a pinch or last resort. Otherwise su30 and 29 etc r good enough for now.



LoL

That's exactly the point.

The rafales that you would be receiving cannot take off from high altitude airbases in Ladakh, cannot fire Israeli Spice munitions or Meteor BVR missiles.

Do you know why India is ordering HAMMER munitions from France under emergency purchase ? Because the Rafales that you receive later this week will not be able to fire the Israeli Spice munitions which are currently in Indian inventory until the India Specific Enhancements will be implemented by end of 2023.

All these Rafales are just show pieces until 2025. 

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indi...hammer-missiles-under-emergency-order.677384/


----------



## jk007

Jackdaws said:


> Actually they accepted their involvement in Pak within a few months. 8 PoWs of theirs were hospitalized in Delhi and they flew them back.
> 
> But sides exaggerate their heroics and downplay their shortcomings. First time I met a Pakistani in the US, he was as shocked as I was when it the narratives of the entire war of 1965 were completely different. He was convinced Pak won that war. I was convinced India did. Truth was it was pretty much a military stalemate. If an entire war can have such divergent narratives, I am not shocked that one minor skirmish does too.



Pak lost 1965 war, as they did not achieve their objective of taking away kashmir.
India won 1965 war, as it did achieve it's objective of keeping all it's territory intact, that too just 3 years after 1962.

Isn't it simple??



HalfMoon said:


> So you are saying Indian Rafales will be able to dodge the Indian S-300 system? Okay. I think that would be an improvement over the IAF performance on 27th February, 2019.
> Even if Rafales escape being shot by the Indian S-300s they will be shot by the Chinese S-400s.
> Rafales are being deployed without any operational training. So you know what the result would be.



@HalfMoon - There are 2 flags in your profile pic. One of them is Pak flag. Which is the other one?


----------



## HalfMoon

jk007 said:


> @HalfMoon - There are 2 flags in your profile pic. One of them is Pak flag. Which is the other one?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Azad_Kashmir


----------



## barora

Type59 said:


> Rich coming from you guys. You are dependent on America for equipment. Tejas has an American engine.



The OP made fun of the fact that our defence procurement is very diverse, and is from USA, Russia, France. I merely stated it helps us in keeping ourselves independent in terms of our policy, as we aren't completely dependent on a country.

Yes, we are very far away from developing our own engine, but its something which is supposed to take multiple decades and multi billion dollars of investment. 

Chinese still use Al 31 while WD 15 is under development at an advanced stage. You guys have invested way more that what we can do as of now.

My point being while they can mock Tejas, for its delay and its shortcomings, they will probably follow a similar path once they start developing their own tech.


----------



## I S I

jAm pRoOf rAdIo


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## TNT

Rafale+Meteor+Spectra said:


> Commom sense and science.



Hahaha then my friend u have none of both.


----------



## Ali_Baba

Its a map that is meant to represent the whole of Kashmir, or just Azad Kashmir ?


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## Feng Leng

I am afraid IAF will lose control and crash into the Chinese side hurting our troops.


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## Cranked

monitor said:


> Let's see how long they can fly Rafale without accidents.


Umm..If we look at their history, not long enough. 



mig25 said:


> Good show of strength by India. I like the intent and going by the posts here its causing serious discomfort among some here.


If only strength comes by acquiring assets. You guys need courage, get that if someone is selling it. All you are good at is killing innocent people in IOK!



Jackdaws said:


> Yes, I admit we don't have conclusive proof of shooting down an F16.


It's not about you don't have any proof. It's more like there exists no proof that it happened and truth is that it never happened. Keep dreaming.


----------



## Pakistan Space Agency

The Rafales in French and Arab hands is just another 4th Gen fighter aircraft but apparently in Indian hands, it's a whole different thing.

It's capabilities even surpass the capabilities of the failed 230+ mini Awacs in Indian inventory.


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## Surya 1

HalfMoon said:


> Taking Arunachal is a piece of cake for China but People of Arunachal are hostile towards China. It will take time to change the opinion in favor of China. When that happens Arunachal will be annexed.
> 
> Currently the Opinion in Kashmir and Ladakh is favorable towards Pakistan & China hence the plan starts here.
> 
> Kashmir & Kargil will go to Pakistan and Ladakh will go to China.
> 
> This will be the new map of India by the end of 2020.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1285503764951183361
> 
> 
> Low IQ Indians do not even realize when they have lost the argument. Delusional at best.



When you are unable to discuss economy, why do you invoke economic related issue with your Madrasa education.


----------



## INDIAPOSITIVE

*New Delhi: *At least five Rafale fighter jets will take off from Mérignac in France on Monday to arrive in India on Wednesday and, if necessary, these planes can also be operationally deployed within a week amid the India-China standoff in Ladakh, ThePrint has learned.

According to sources within the defense and security establishment, a total of 12 Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots have been fully trained on the fighter plane, which is considered a game changer in the region with its unmatched firepower.

Several other pilots are completing their training in France – the contract stipulates that a total of 36 pilots will be trained by the French authorities, including those who will undergo training in India.

While in an official statement, the IAF said five planes would land on Wednesday, as ThePrint reported on June 29, the figure could be six.

*« *The exact number of planes that will take off will not be known until Monday. The IAF said five would land in India on July 29, but that number could even be six, ”a source said.

According to the contract signed in September 2016, 12 planes are supposed to be delivered each year.

The French defense major Dassault Aviation, which manufactures the Rafale jets, had since October last year handed over a total of nine aircraft to the IAF. The 10 is currently undergoing acceptance tests by IAF pilots in France.



_The source also added that the plane can be operationally deployed, if necessary, “within a week”._

_Under normal circumstances, it takes at least six months for a full operational deployment._

_However, according to a source, these are “extraordinary times”._

_“The pilots were in training mode until now. They should now be in combat mode, which takes time as they have to get used to the plane with several combat training flights. However, extraordinary times demand extraordinary measures. If necessary, the aircraft can be operationally deployed within a week of arrival or even the same day. But it is the case, ”he said._

_*Also read: *IAF to enthrone 5 Rafale fighters on July 29 in Ambala, their first mission could be in Ladakh_

*The flight plan: from France to India*
_According to the plan, the Rafale fighters will take off from Mérignac, where Dassault Aviation’s production site is located._

_They will fly directly to the French Al Dhafra air base near Abu Dhabi in the United Arab Emirates for a night stopover._

_It would be a 10 hour trip and these fighters would be accompanied by two French Air Force inflight refuellers._

_Sources noted that there would be two rounds of in-flight refueling to complete the trip._

_They added that the pilots had undergone specialized training for in-flight refueling through the Airbus 330 multipurpose airlift (MRTT) that the French use._

_This was not originally part of the training module since the IAF uses the Russian IL-78 aircraft for in-flight refueling._

_Although the distance to the United Arab Emirates can be covered by the Rafale in a much shorter time, they will have to keep pace with the tankers._

_After the night stopover, the jets will take off for Ambala in Haryana, where the 17th Squadron of the IAF, the “Golden Arrows” is located, home of the first Rafale fighter squadron._

_Initially, the plane was to arrive after stopovers in several countries. However, in light of the Covid-19 pandemic, that meant pilots would have to be quarantined at every base._

_Additionally, growing tensions at the borders with China meant that the IAF could not wait for fighters to be delayed._


*Missiles on Rafale aircraft*
_India has approached France to speed up the delivery of the Rafales, given the border tensions. The jets were not originally due to arrive until October of this year._

_The French government then diverted a first batch of advanced missiles destined for its own air force to India._

_The missiles, which have already arrived at the Ambala base, include the Meteor air-to-air missile, manufactured by the European company MBDA._

_The Meteor costs about Rs 20 crore each, and is a very long-range rocket and a ram-powered air-to-air missile. With a range of about 150 km, the missile can attack an enemy aircraft without even crossing Indian airspace._

_Neither China nor Pakistan have a missile to counter this capability of the IAF._

_Another key missile on board is the 1,300kg and 5.1-meter-long Scalp, which can be carried in a missile or two-missile configuration on the Rafale._

_The air-to-surface missile costs around Rs 40 crore each and is also manufactured by the MBDA. It has a range of 600 km and is renowned for its precision._

_The Rafale will not have to cross Indian airspace to reach a target of approximately 600 km in enemy territory and can be used in penetration, impact or explosion mode._

_It is intended to strike deep even in restricted access areas and in an area denial scenario – which aims to prevent the opponent from entering their territory._

_In view of the situation in Ladakh with China, the IAF also led the emergency purchase of the HAMMER air-to-surface missile with a range of approximately 60 km._

_The original plan was to integrate the Israeli Spice 2000 into the Rafale aircraft, but focusing on the early operational deployment of the Rafale, the decision was made to purchase the HAMMER, which the Rafale is already configured to fire._

_The other missile that the Rafale would carry is the air-to-air MICA, which was also deployed on the Mirage 2000._

_*Also read:* For rapid deployment of the Rafale, the IAF opts for the HAMMER weapon system, not the Israeli Spice 2000 system_


https://www.fr24news.com/a/2020/07/...orrow-could-be-operational-within-a-week.html

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## Dustom999

Infact they will straight away go on to bomb chengdu airbase and return to France dealership for first 1000miles free service. Warranty trouble if you dont get the first service done at official dealership. Then they will return and lads will go for a Vaishno mata family trip.

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## Windjammer

Just more media hype to steady the rattled nerves.
India supposedly has over 250 so called Raptors of the East.
If they are not sufficient, one wonders what difference would five Rafales make.

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## HalfMoon

Dustom999 said:


> Infact they will straight away go on to bomb chengdu airbase and return to France dealership for first 1000miles free service. Warranty trouble if you dont get the first service done at official dealership. Then they will return and lads will go for a Vaishno mata family trip.

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## vi-va

$hit, even France itself who built the jet need years to be fully operational. https://www.fr24news.com is notorious.

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## NAVDEEP DHALIWAL

Dustom999 said:


> Infact they will straight away go on to bomb chengdu airbase and return to France dealership for first 1000miles free service. Warranty trouble if you dont get the first service done at official dealership. Then they will return and lads will go for a Vaishno mata family trip.


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## Ali_Baba

Arrive in 1 weeks time, crash one in 2 weeks time and get the rest shot down in 3weeks ? Cradle to grave so quick it will make your head shiver..

J10C with the PL15 will have the match of the Rafale, and China is capable of turning them out quicker than anything India can purchase.

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## Trango Towers

36 planes and 36 pilots being trained....am I missing something here?

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## newb3e

india media and their pheeel good bs!!

bakhts are like modis pet easy to tame easy to abuse! crazy creatures

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## I S I

INDIAPOSITIVE said:


> a total of 12 Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots have been fully trained on the fighter plane, which is considered a game changer in the region with its unmatched firepower.


Jai Rafale




these are not lemons but Indian balls.

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## Thorough Pro

Jab tak eh jahaz india mein land naheen karain gay, tab tak yeh narial modi ki 56 inch mein he rahin gay




I S I said:


> Jai Rafale
> View attachment 655556
> these are not lemons but Indian balls.

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## rambro

good job france stick to the plan keep milking they are totally desperate.

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## truthseeker2010

Whats next when rafale fails? I have not seen more paranoid people than indians with rafale.

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## Jinn Baba

Damn! These guys are seriously desperate. What happens when the Indian public finds out that the PLAAF operates 6th Gen J20s with longer range PL15s

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## I S I

Thorough Pro said:


> Jab tak eh jahaz india mein land naheen karain gay, tab tak yeh narial modi ki 56 inch mein he rahin gay

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## Figaro

truthseeker2010 said:


> Whats next when rafale fails? I have not seen more paranoid people than indians with rafale.


Nothing. With or without the Rafaels, the IAF is toast against the PLAAF. The Chinese would seize air superiority within the first 24 hours of hostilities and maintain it for the rest of the war. The 36 Rafaels would offer only a token capability upgrade against the hundreds of J-10C and J-16 fighters (not to mention the J-20). Besides, the Indians would need years to familiarize themselves with the Rafael ... if war is to happen within that few years, the token capability upgrade would be even smaller.

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## HalfMoon

Jinn Baba said:


> Damn! These guys are seriously desperate. What happens when the Indian public finds out that the PLAAF operates 6th Gen J20s with longer range PL15s

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## loanranger

Jinn Baba said:


> Damn! These guys are seriously desperate. What happens when the Indian public finds out that the PLAAF operates 6th Gen J20s with longer range PL15s


Why do you worry the indian public will be gifted an other PAF F16 kill by IAF God knows how creative theyll get this time.

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## HalfMoon

Trango Towers said:


> 36 planes and 36 pilots being trained....am I missing something here?



IAF is running short on pilots.

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## StormBreaker

I S I said:


> Jai Rafale
> View attachment 655556
> these are not lemons but Indian balls.


Ye to IRST ko bob samajh kar hath lagara hai bhai, ajeeb tarsa hoa

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## rambro

HalfMoon said:


> View attachment 655631



In their dream they can have F-22.
In reality that is US top of the line, not up for sale even to US closest allies.

India can have F-21 though - Lmao

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## Figaro

rambro said:


> In their dream they can have F-22.
> In reality that is US top of the line, not up for sale even to US closest allies.
> 
> India can have F-21 though - Lmao


The US should have named the F-21 to the F-23 to fool the Indians into thinking they would be offering a superior product to the F-22 . Given the nature of many posts by Indian members here, I am sure they would have no problem believing such a thing.

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## appliedfor

rambro said:


> In their dream they can have F-22.
> In reality that is US top of the line, not up for sale even to US closest allies.
> 
> India can have F-21 though - Lmao


F35 is available

They can wish after another failure

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## Vanguard One

Figaro said:


> The US should have named the F-21 to the F-23 to fool the Indians into thinking they would be offering a superior product to the F-22 . Given the nature of many posts by Indian members here, I am sure they would have no problem believing such a thing.



India should have got the F-22 as a backup, its a pretty useful aircraft, the US was willing to sell the production line to India as well.

But Indians and strategy is a long-running joke, the CCP is massed all along the border, Galwan is now under Chinese control and India has lost so much territory it's not even funny anymore.

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## Figaro

Vanguard One said:


> India should have got the F-22 as a backup, its a pretty useful aircraft, the US was willing to sell the production line to India as well.
> 
> But Indians and strategy is a long-running joke, the CCP is massed all along the border, Galwan is now under Chinese control and India has lost so much territory it's not even funny anymore.


I'm sorry but where has the US ever indicated a willingless to sell the F-22 production line to India? AFAIK it has consistently refused to sell it to its closest allies UK/Japan or the rest of NATO. How would it sell the F-22 to India, who not only purchases a bunch of Russian weaponry but also is not in any alliance with the US?

As for the second paragraph, I fully concur.

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## rambro

appliedfor said:


> F35 is available
> 
> They can wish after another failure


US was pitching F-21 to india it wasnt F-35

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## Vanguard One

Figaro said:


> I'm sorry but where has the US ever indicated a willingless to sell the F-22 production line to India? AFAIK it has consistently refused to sell it to its closest allies UK/Japan or the rest of NATO. How would it sell the F-22 to India, who not only purchases a bunch of Russian weaponry but also is not in any alliance with the US?
> 
> As for the second paragraph, I fully concur.



Meant the F-21, and they offered the production line to India as well, F-21 was ideal for India as a backup fighter and would have been better than most of the aircraft in the Indian inventory, India is the biggest joke on the planet.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Looks like the PAF boys need to get fully ready for delivering another “surprise”!!! This time it should be shoot down 1 Rafael, get 9 SUs free....

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## BON PLAN

polanski said:


> India to arm Rafale with HAMMER precision strike missile: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...-rafale-with-hammer-precision-strike-missile/


It will be a fast delivery purchase. Maybe already delivered....
Taken on the french inventory (as the first Meteor).

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## I S I

StormBreaker said:


> Ye to IRST ko bob samajh kar hath lagara hai bhai, ajeeb tarsa hoa


Lagta hai modi ki tarhan ye bhi randwa hai.

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## nahtanbob

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Great weapon systems from France, but alas For a Few Dollars More the French forget all their humanitarian principles. Making money and selling weapons to nations when they are on the brink of War is immoral, i guess Western principles are redundant in these situations and Stoking the flames is the need of the hour. *


wasn't the deal signed a long time ago ?


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## Lord Of Gondor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287645558174126080

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## Daghalodi

If Indians think this will stop the chinese, than they are living in a fools paradise.


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## I S I

PDF said:


> If they went after Hammer after rejecting it in the past, it means IAF Spice doesn't give a required or specific capability which forced it to reconsider buying under emergency. Israel should work further on Spice even if its price has to be increased so that it can satisfy its clients.


You missing the bigger picture here. India indirectly confirmed that spice 2000 used in balakot missed their target. Their pilots are also shit but weapon wasn't less of a turd too.


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## Vergennes

Lord Of Gondor said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287645558174126080



Congratulations to the Indian Air Force ! _Bon Vent_ as we say!

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## Prince Kassad

Imagine Rafale coming to India via Pakistan in an arrow head formation


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## StormBreaker

Prince Kassad said:


> Imagine Rafale coming to India via Pakistan in an arrow head formation


You want us to hold 15 more pilots as captives ?

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## The Eagle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287698083741159425

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## Aadi_1591

Vanguard One said:


> India should have got the F-22 as a backup, its a pretty useful aircraft, the US was willing to sell the production line to India as well.
> 
> But Indians and strategy is a long-running joke, the CCP is massed all along the border, Galwan is now under Chinese control and India has lost so much territory it's not even funny anymore.


since when us started to offer production line of f22? american don't even sell this plane to japan after repeated request.


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## The Eagle

Lord Of Gondor said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287645558174126080



I can only see 3 twin seat yet news claims 5.


----------



## Salza

Their formal induction ceremony will probably be held on their independence day Aug 15.

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## Lord Of Gondor

The Eagle said:


> I can only see 3 twin seat yet news claims 5.


Check out India in France on Twitter, you can see the single seater

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## The Eagle

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Check out India in France on Twitter, you can see the single seater



That's makes sense. Tally completed.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287700277869465607
I can see one single seat taxing.

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287688643679678464


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287664076781305859

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## StormBreaker

The Eagle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287698083741159425


Heading to Al Dhafrah Air Base, UAE most probably



INDIAPOSITIVE said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287688643679678464
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287664076781305859


@The Eagle Finally, Indians are starting to hype it up,
Soon Twitter will be full of “Welcome Rafale”,
It should be that time, That, Mujahid saheb should drop the bomb over the Indians

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## newb3e

lemo walla jahaz nikal gaya!

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## StormBreaker

Ya Allah,
Kamzkam ek jahaz to rastay mein hi lurka de,


*Sab milke bolo AMEEN*
**

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## N.Siddiqui

Does the package includes the pilots as well...we all know the IAF pilots capabilities.

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## King Julien

StormBreaker said:


> Ya Allah,
> Kamzkam ek jahaz to rastay mein hi lurka de,
> 
> 
> *Sab milke bolo AMEEN*
> **


----------



## The Eagle

StormBreaker said:


> Heading to Al Dhafrah Air Base, UAE most probably



Yes. Will arrive by 29th July in India.



StormBreaker said:


> @The Eagle Finally, Indians are starting to hype it up,
> Soon Twitter will be full of “Welcome Rafale”,
> It should be that time, That, Mujahid saheb should drop the bomb over the Indians



I don't see any reason to do so... or don't need to. CAS has already conveyed the message to whom it may concern.

However, we can tag them above Arabian Sea, International Waters, phor phun.

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## StormBreaker

The Eagle said:


> Yes. Will arrive by 29th July in India.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see any reason to do so... or don't need to. CAS has already conveyed the message to whom it may concern.
> 
> However, we can tag them above Arabian Sea, International Waters, phor phun.


Hehehe,

Imagine, An Armed Thunder over Arabian sea, Locks a Rafale over Indian waters,
And suddenly Rafale’s RWR starts bleeping 

Rafales are unarmed

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## The Eagle

StormBreaker said:


> Hehehe,
> 
> Imagine, An Armed Thunder over Arabian sea, Locks a Rafale over Indian waters,
> And suddenly Rafale’s RWR starts bleeping
> 
> Rafales are unarmed



For Indian members! That was on lighter note boys. Congrats to have your new fighter. I am happy that at-least it will raise the bar in region and specifically from Pakistan's point of view, will result in healthy yet capable competition. Time to cope with quality.

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## StormBreaker

The Eagle said:


> For Indian members! That was on lighter note boys. Congrats to have your new fighter. I am happy that at-least it will raise the bar in region and specifically from Pakistan's point of view, will result in healthy yet capable competition. Time to cope with quality.


Yes,

Anyways, indians, Congrats For the New Father, Hope you keep them in the hangar instead of bringing them head to head to our MKI killer,
Rafales look good in the hangar than burning on the ground

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## KeyBORED Warrior

Baraati agaye?

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## StormBreaker

King Julien said:


>


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## SpArK

So finally the bird is coming.

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## Secularindian

a Single rafale can Carry upto 10 Meteors

5 Is Significant Numbers if you use It Wisely To take Out AEWS And Radar Stations of Enemies

Nevertheless As Per Latest Official Diplomatic confirmation all 36 Will Delivered To us by December 2021 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287638352674664448


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## Armchair

PAF has surprise waiting for them.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Armchair said:


> PAF has surprise waiting for them.



Good for them


----------



## Windjammer

Prince Kassad said:


> Imagine Rafale coming to India via Pakistan in an arrow head formation


You often imagine these wishful thinking....no harm in dreaming but then there are certain realities.

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## Jobless Jack

Ali_Baba said:


> Arrive in 1 weeks time, crash one in 2 weeks time and get the rest shot down in 3weeks ? Cradle to grave so quick it will make your head shiver..
> 
> J10C with the PL15 will have the match of the Rafale, and China is capable of turning them out quicker than anything India can purchase.




and then ask the French for refund of cash 

#MasterStroke


----------



## Malik Shani

StormBreaker said:


> Hehehe,
> 
> Imagine, An Armed Thunder over Arabian sea, Locks a Rafale over Indian waters,
> And suddenly Rafale’s RWR starts bleeping
> 
> Rafales are unarmed


Just out of curiosity, The current NOTAM by Pakistan is set to welcome Rafale? Would be nice to at least lock them using our SAM's 

https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/upload/Notams/A0448-20.txt

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## Lord Of Gondor

SpArK said:


> So finally the bird is coming.


Long time!
Cheers!


----------



## truthseeker2010

Figaro said:


> Nothing. With or without the Rafaels, the IAF is toast against the PLAAF. The Chinese would seize air superiority within the first 24 hours of hostilities and maintain it for the rest of the war. The 36 Rafaels would offer only a token capability upgrade against the hundreds of J-10C and J-16 fighters (not to mention the J-20). Besides, the Indians would need years to familiarize themselves with the Rafael ... if war is to happen within that few years, the token capability upgrade would be even smaller.



A better option would be to employ french pilots with combat experience (which is impossible) because that will atleast give some value for money.


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## Dustom999

5 Being accompanied by Two French tankers number 4061 and 4063 all the way from France! Just about arriving near to Bahrain. Haven't started loosing attitude for landing yet.


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## BON PLAN

Hammer may avoid that :
The last 2 seconds, the image tracking system was lost... Fortunately the bomb inertia was too high to modify significantly the formed trajectory.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287261731450830850
With Hammer, a most fast weapon, no such problem !


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> It will be a fast delivery purchase. Maybe already delivered....
> Taken on the french inventory (as the first Meteor).



..which means a much shorter shelf life. Great for France, not so much for India.

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## BON PLAN

Latest update from flight radar.
They are about to land in UAE

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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> Hammer may avoid that :
> The last 2 seconds, the image tracking system was lost... Fortunately the bomb inertia was too high to modify significantly the formed trajectory.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287261731450830850
> With Hammer, a most fast weapon, no such problem !



Makes no sense, the weapon used in 1999 was laser guided not TV guided so image tracking is irrelevant.

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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> ..which means a much shorter shelf life. Great for France, not so much for India.


The Bomb is a standard US one.
The booster : I don't know the life span.
The seeker and actuators are free of maintenance.

And I only think a small quantity is or will be delivered. Just a stop gap measure.


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> The Bomb is a standard US one.
> The booster : I don't know the life span.
> The seeker and actuators are free of maintenance.
> 
> And I only think a small quantity is or will be delivered. Just a stop gap measure.



Hammer is not as bad as Meteor. Meteor has a short shelf life.

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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> Makes no sense, the weapon used in 1999 was laser guided not TV guided so image tracking is irrelevant.


Sorry, but the laser deignator uses image traking : it compares image after image not to be lost.



dbc said:


> Hammer is not as bad as Meteor. Meteor has a short shelf life.


So you know the Meteor life span.
Nice !
What is it please?

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## I S I

BON PLAN said:


> Latest update from flight radar.
> They are about to land in UAE
> View attachment 655836


Bhagwaan aarahe hain.

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## Crixus

Hopefully Indian planners will not repeat the mistake of Mirage 2000 ....the only fighter which has proved its worth in all imp. IAF missions since their arrivals ....India should buy rafales in good numbers to counter both eastern and western fronts

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## Dustom999

Rafael will land in India tonite itself.


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## xeuss

Dustom999 said:


> Rafael will land in India tonite itself.



Where does it land?


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## Dustom999

Lets see! Still time to go! Ambala i would guess.

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## xeuss

Dustom999 said:


> Lets see! Still time to go! Ambala i would guess.



If it is Ambala, will it overfly over Pakistan?? That would be funny actually.


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## HalfMoon

Secularindian said:


> a Single rafale can Carry upto 10 Meteors



LoL

It can carry but cannot fire them until 2024.

May be Indians will use Meteors and Scalps as dumb bombs.


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> Sorry, but the laser deignator uses image traking : it compares image after image not to be lost.
> 
> 
> So you know the Meteor life span.
> Nice !
> What is it please?





BON PLAN said:


> Sorry, but the laser deignator uses image traking : it compares image after image not to be lost.


No laser tracking has nothing to do with image, it either rides the laser all the way to its target 'beam rider' or it simply tracks the reflected light. 




BON PLAN said:


> So you know the Meteor life span.
> Nice !
> What is it please?



Much...Much...Much...shorter than the Rafale, even shorter for the second hand meteors IAF purchased.

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## Dustom999

xeuss said:


> If it is Ambala, will it overfly over Pakistan?? That would be funny actually.


Not flying over Pak!

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## Vergennes

The Eagle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287698083741159425



One of the A330 MRTT will be carrying medical supplies to India,inlcuding 70 ventilators and 100.000 covid 19 test kits and an expert team from the French armed forces health service.

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## The Eagle

Vergennes said:


> One of the A330 MRTT will be carrying medical supplies to India,inlcuding 70 ventilators and 100.000 covid 19 test kits and an expert team from the French armed forces health service.



Thanks friend. That's why one of A330MRTT has landed at Al Dhafra almost an hour ago yet other one is on the way to Mumbai.

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## Khan vilatey

Dustom999 said:


> 5 Being accompanied by Two French tankers number 4061 and 4063 all the way from France! Just about arriving near to Bahrain. Haven't started loosing attitude for landing yet.
> View attachment 655816



so on a 7 hour jet fighter flight, how do they go to the toilet ? Pampers I presume ?

kv


----------



## NAVDEEP DHALIWAL

Khan vilatey said:


> so on a 7 hour jet fighter flight, how do they go to the toilet ? Pampers I presume ?
> 
> kv


I would guess they regulate type & quantity of food eaten before flight. Ofcourse peeing is straight to pampers I guess


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## Thorough Pro

Would the french pilots go back in the first MRTT or the second one?




Vergennes said:


> One of the A330 MRTT will be carrying medical supplies to India,inlcuding 70 ventilators and 100.000 covid 19 test kits and an expert team from the French armed forces health service.


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## El Sidd

Finally a plane that don't need trucks to move about.

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## Crixus

Most probably will land in jamnagar AFS


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## HalfMoon

El Sidd said:


> Finally a plane that don't need trucks to move about.



Rafale itself is the truck. 

One thing is clear. Rafales can be easily tracked. 

Russia already confirmed that Chinese SU-35s will shoot down Indian Rafales like flies.

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## dbc

Khan vilatey said:


> so on a 7 hour jet fighter flight, how do they go to the toilet ? Pampers I presume ?
> 
> kv



Its called a piddle pack ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine_collection_device


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## Gomig-21

Congrats India on their new Rafales!

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## Lord Of Gondor

The first foreign jets to land in Ambala since the Jaguars from 1979.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287706998843219969

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## HalfMoon

Crixus said:


> Most probably will land in jamnagar AFS





FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287706998843219969



Indian Rafales cannot fire Rafael’s SPICE 1000 EO/GPS-guided munitions or MBDA's Meteor BVRAAMs or ALARM Anti-radiation missiles.

These are just show pieces to fulfill bruised Indian egos.

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## Goenitz

The Eagle said:


> However, we can tag them above Arabian Sea, International Waters, phor phun.


we should check its electronic, radar signature.. if possible..
Edit: they wd travel 2700 km from UAE to Ambala... completely avoiding Pak

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## Thorough Pro

Damn 3 more hours for them to reach India, the world should say goodbye to China. China is toast.

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## Figaro

Thorough Pro said:


> Damn 3 more hours for them to reach India, the world should say goodbye to China. China is toast.


China was already toast when the 6th gen LCA Tejas became operational. The Indians only ordered the Rafael because they wanted to show generosity to the failing Dassault.



HalfMoon said:


> Indian Rafales cannot fire Rafael’s SPICE 1000 EO/GPS-guided munitions or MBDA's Meteor BVRAAMs or ALARM Anti-radiation missiles.
> 
> These are just show pieces to fulfill bruised Indian egos.


The 36 Rafaels are just white elephants ... they don't really alter the nature of China/Pakistan vs India air combat operations at all.

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## HalfMoon

Goenitz said:


> we should check its electronic, radar signature.. if possible..
> Edit: they wd travel 2700 km from UAE to Ambala... completely avoiding Pak
> View attachment 656054



Pakistan already has access to Rafale through our Egyptian and Qatari brothers.


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## Ultima Thule

truthseeker2010 said:


> Whats next when rafale fails? I have not seen more paranoid people than indians with rafale.


Pher ye jumla ho ga chai wale ki zaban pe agar AMCA hota tu ye na hota



Secularindian said:


> a Single rafale can Carry upto 10 Meteors
> 
> 5 Is Significant Numbers if you use It Wisely To take Out AEWS And Radar Stations of Enemies
> 
> Nevertheless As Per Latest Official Diplomatic confirmation all 36 Will Delivered To us by December 2021
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287638352674664448


Oh no 4.5th gen jets can carry 10 BVR even US/Russian jets can't able to carry 10 AAMs because of aerodynamic issues

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## HalfMoon

Ultima Thule said:


> Pher ye jumla ho ga chai wale ki zaban pe agar AMCA hota tu ye na hota



No way. One thing to know about Indians is they always bet on foreign stuff. They will never bet on AMCA.


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## Ultima Thule

Lord Of Gondor said:


> The first foreign jets to land in Ambala since the Jaguars from 1979.


And MKI is not foreign jet which land in India in early late 90s/early 2000 or would trying to say first European jet since 1979???

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## PakFactor

Goenitz said:


> we should check its electronic, radar signature.. if possible..
> Edit: they wd travel 2700 km from UAE to Ambala... completely avoiding Pak
> View attachment 656054



Bastards took the biggest loop to avoid Pak lol

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## HalfMoon

Ultima Thule said:


> And MKI is not foreign jet which land in India in early late 90s/early 2000 or would trying to say first European jet since 1979???



All their fighters are foreign including LCA.

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## Ultima Thule

HalfMoon said:


> All their fighters are foreign including LCA.


Yes you're right LCA parts comes from all over the world and they just assembling it at home

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## Signalian

Secularindian said:


> a Single rafale can Carry upto 10 Meteors


Good analysis.

Back in time, during its hay-days we used to listen that SU-30MKI can also carry up to 10 AAMs, majority BVR missiles. With 240 aircraft in air, that's roughly 2400 AAMs in the air at one time. Enough to reign the skies.

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## HalfMoon

Signalian said:


> Good analysis.
> 
> Back in time, during its hay-days we used to listen that SU-30MKI can also carry up to 10 AAMs, majority BVR missiles. With 240 aircraft in air, that's roughly 2400 AAMs in the air at one time. Enough to reign the skies.



SU-30 MKI was mini-AWACS too until it fell from grace on 27th Feb, 2019.

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## Raj-Hindustani

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1287706998843219969



That's funny..... Hahagav



Ultima Thule said:


> And MKI is not foreign jet which land in India in early late 90s/early 2000 or would trying to say first European jet since 1979???



Su 30 is just like jf 17 for Pakistan.


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## airmarshal

As if these are only planes India bought. They have Mirages, Su-30s, MiG-29s. They couldnt do sh*t with those. They wont do sh*t with these either.

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## polanski

India postponed order of another batch of Rafale due to COVID-19: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...r-of-another-batch-of-rafale-due-to-covid-19/


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## Raj-Hindustani

Signalian said:


> Good analysis.
> 
> Back in time, during its hay-days we used to listen that SU-30MKI can also carry up to 10 AAMs, majority BVR missiles. With 240 aircraft in air, that's roughly 2400 AAMs in the air at one time. Enough to reign the skies.



Su 30 still a beast of South Asia.

People can only day dream but it was just a game of bvr missile range (f16 with 110km and su 30 mki with 80 km)

Still su 30mki was able to performed countermeasures against incoming bvr missiles.

Su 30 mki with now missile with 110 km and rafale with meteor missile will easily can handle any threats...


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## cloud4000

I don't think it's a good idea to send in green pilots flying a new aircraft type into action right away. India should send in their most experience squadrons. India needs to be defensive here.

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## Ultima Thule

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Su 30 is just like jf 17 for Pa


But its still foreign jet isn't or you designed it????, you assembling MKI at home but we have a partial manufacturing capability for JFT

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## Gomig-21

Figaro said:


> The 36 Rafaels are just white elephants ... they don't really alter the nature of China/Pakistan vs India air combat operations at all.



I completely disagree. I don't have a dog in this fight as I respect both countries, China and India so this is about as objective as it comes. But even though the total number is 36 aircraft, they'll be carrying arguably the best A2A missile out to date in the Meteor. The rest will be up to the Indian pilots to get used to the aircraft but my guess is they've already had months of training in France similar to what the Egyptian pilots had. So armed with SPECTRA and the Meteor, one Rafale can cause a whole lotta problems for any adversary.

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## Ultima Thule

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Su 30 still a beast of South Asia.
> 
> People can only day dream but it was just a game of bvr missile range (f16 with 110km and su 30 mki with 80 km)
> 
> Still su 30mki as able to performed countermeasures against incoming bvr missiles.
> 
> Su 30 mki with now missile with 110 km and rafale with meteor missile will easily can handle any threats...


Stick to the topic, please, and China's PL-15???


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## HalfMoon

cloud4000 said:


> I don't think it's a good idea to send in green pilots flying a new aircraft type into action right away. India should send in their most experience squadrons. India needs to be defensive here.



India is always in the *defensive mode*. 

Oops Let me correct myself. 

India is always in the *disengagement mood*. 





Gomig-21 said:


> I completely disagree. I don't have a dog in this fight as I respect both countries, China and India so this is about as objective as it comes. But even though the total number is 36 aircraft, they'll be carrying arguably the best A2A missile out to date in the Meteor. The rest will be up to the Indian pilots to get used to the aircraft but my guess is they've already had months of training in France similar to what the Egyptian pilots had. So armed with SPECTRA and the Meteor, one Rafale can cause a whole lotta problems for any adversary.



Indian Rafales cannot fire meteors.


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## Ultima Thule

HalfMoon said:


> India is always in the *defensive mode*.
> 
> Oops Let me correct myself.
> 
> India is always in the *disengagement mood*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian Rafales cannot fire meteors.


And how do you know that they can't fire meteor???


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## Gomig-21

HalfMoon said:


> Indian Rafales cannot fire meteors.



Sure they can. It's one of several items that makes the Rafale a super deadly platform in the right hands. Its fussion cockpit with SPECTRA and even the MICAs IR & ER are all super deadly accessories that work together into a single lethal, A2A package. Then you have SCALPs which can act as both, A2A and A2G cruise missiles. Then there's HAMMERS so it's a pretty potent platform.

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## HalfMoon

Gomig-21 said:


> Sure they can. It's one of several items that makes the Rafale a super deadly platform in the right hands. Its fussion cockpit with SPECTRA and even the MICAs IR & ER are all super deadly accessories that work together into a single lethal, A2A package. Then you have SCALPs which can act as both, A2A and A2G cruise missiles. Then there's HAMMERS so it's a pretty potent platform.



You are making the mistake of assuming that Egyptian Rafales are same as Indian Rafales.



Ultima Thule said:


> And how do you know that they can't fire meteor???



Read Point 13 below.

The Rafales that IAF will receive this month will be missing the following key features. These features will be only available 6 months after all 36 fighters have been delivered.

So Technically Indian Rafales will be combat ready only after 2023. This is even as we discount pilot's skill, experience and tactics in using Rafales.

The enhanced capabilities in the Rafale fighters sought by India will see 14 India Specific Enhancements Exclusive to be incorporated to India bound 36 Rafale fighter jets which will be added by the company once the delivery of all the jets is completed by 2022. 14 India Specific Enhancements for India bound Rafale fighter jets have been listed out

1) Upgraded Sigma 95N INS: A Hybrid inertial navigation/GPS system used on the Dassault Rafale fighter jets will now support Indian developed Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS ) also called as NAVIC which provides accurate real-time positioning and timing services for India and a region extending 1,500 km around it.

2) Upgraded RBE-2 AESA-MMR: RBE2 AESA radar developed by Thales will now feature Airborne weather radar which will come in handy to predict more timely and accurate weather conditions.

3) Enhanced OBOGS: Rafale fighter jet comes fitted with an onboard oxygen generation system (OBOGS) which suppresses the need for liquid oxygen re-filling or ground support for oxygen production, but India has asked for Enhanced OBOGS system which will have enhanced capacity supporting additional filters.

4) Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS): Thales developed Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) contains Air Traffic Surveillance Awareness capabilities like a Terrain Avoidance Warning System (TAWS) which will improve the level of awareness and comfort of the flight crew.

5) Tweaked M88 Engines: Rafale fighter jet which uses M88-4E engines will receive tweaks to its fuel starter so that engine can operate at optimum even at sub-zero high altitude air base of Indian air force.

6) IESI (Integrated Electronic Standby Instruments): Thales developed IESI will be installed to operate in a particular set of environmental conditions and features accurate low airspeed measurement to cope with the flight envelope while avoiding additional weight due to external air data computer.

7) Quad-Pack Ejectors: Rafale fighter jet will be getting French developed Quad-Pack Ejectors which can be used for low weight Stand-Off Weapon both of Indian and foreign origins.

8) X-Guard fiber-optic towed decoy system: India bound Rafale fighter jets will be getting X-Guard fibre-optic towed decoy system which is designed to counter air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles. Each aircraft carries two X-Guard towed decoy and can be released when the aircraft approaches a saturated area or when a threat is detected. The most suitable countermeasure is transmitted to the X-Guard by the aircraft’s electronic countermeasures system. The fiber-optic connection to the aircraft allows accurate jamming, says Rafael.

9) Tweaks to SPECTRA Electronic Warfare System: India specific threat libraries will be added and SPECTRA EW System will also feature Low- Medium and High band apertures to deal with low observable aircraft.

10) TARGO-II Helmet Mounted Display Systems Developed by ELBIT

11) Integration of LITENING G4 Target Acquisition Pod which are already used by Indian Air Force for its frontline fighter aircraft, including the Su-30 MKI, MiG-29

12) Integration of Rafael’s SPICE 1000 EO/GPS-guided munitions

13 ) MBDA developed Meteor BVRAAM and ALARM Anti-radiation missile

14) Assistance to be provided to local Indian Public sector companies for Integration of Weapons ranging from India’s Astra BVRAAM to High-speed low drag (HSLD) bombs with the aircraft’s weapons control system. India bound Rafale fighter jets are also rumored to later get specific Indian enhancements which can come handy in the delivery of Nuclear weapons, which obviously will not be confirmed by Indian or French governments.

https://idrw.org/14-india-specific-enhancements-exclusive-to-india-bound-rafale-fighter-jets/ .


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## Ultima Thule

HalfMoon said:


> You are making the mistake of assuming that Egyptian Rafales are same as Indian Rafales.
> 
> 
> 
> Read Point 13 below.
> 
> The Rafales that IAF will receive this month will be missing the following key features. These features will be only available 6 months after all 36 fighters have been delivered.
> 
> So Technically Indian Rafales will be combat ready only after 2023. This is even as we discount pilot's skill, experience and tactics in using Rafales.
> 
> The enhanced capabilities in the Rafale fighters sought by India will see 14 India Specific Enhancements Exclusive to be incorporated to India bound 36 Rafale fighter jets which will be added by the company once the delivery of all the jets is completed by 2022. 14 India Specific Enhancements for India bound Rafale fighter jets have been listed out
> 
> 1) Upgraded Sigma 95N INS: A Hybrid inertial navigation/GPS system used on the Dassault Rafale fighter jets will now support Indian developed Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS ) also called as NAVIC which provides accurate real-time positioning and timing services for India and a region extending 1,500 km around it.
> 
> 2) Upgraded RBE-2 AESA-MMR: RBE2 AESA radar developed by Thales will now feature Airborne weather radar which will come in handy to predict more timely and accurate weather conditions.
> 
> 3) Enhanced OBOGS: Rafale fighter jet comes fitted with an onboard oxygen generation system (OBOGS) which suppresses the need for liquid oxygen re-filling or ground support for oxygen production, but India has asked for Enhanced OBOGS system which will have enhanced capacity supporting additional filters.
> 
> 4) Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS): Thales developed Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) contains Air Traffic Surveillance Awareness capabilities like a Terrain Avoidance Warning System (TAWS) which will improve the level of awareness and comfort of the flight crew.
> 
> 5) Tweaked M88 Engines: Rafale fighter jet which uses M88-4E engines will receive tweaks to its fuel starter so that engine can operate at optimum even at sub-zero high altitude air base of Indian air force.
> 
> 6) IESI (Integrated Electronic Standby Instruments): Thales developed IESI will be installed to operate in a particular set of environmental conditions and features accurate low airspeed measurement to cope with the flight envelope while avoiding additional weight due to external air data computer.
> 
> 7) Quad-Pack Ejectors: Rafale fighter jet will be getting French developed Quad-Pack Ejectors which can be used for low weight Stand-Off Weapon both of Indian and foreign origins.
> 
> 8) X-Guard fiber-optic towed decoy system: India bound Rafale fighter jets will be getting X-Guard fibre-optic towed decoy system which is designed to counter air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles. Each aircraft carries two X-Guard towed decoy and can be released when the aircraft approaches a saturated area or when a threat is detected. The most suitable countermeasure is transmitted to the X-Guard by the aircraft’s electronic countermeasures system. The fiber-optic connection to the aircraft allows accurate jamming, says Rafael.
> 
> 9) Tweaks to SPECTRA Electronic Warfare System: India specific threat libraries will be added and SPECTRA EW System will also feature Low- Medium and High band apertures to deal with low observable aircraft.
> 
> 10) TARGO-II Helmet Mounted Display Systems Developed by ELBIT
> 
> 11) Integration of LITENING G4 Target Acquisition Pod which are already used by Indian Air Force for its frontline fighter aircraft, including the Su-30 MKI, MiG-29
> 
> 12) Integration of Rafael’s SPICE 1000 EO/GPS-guided munitions
> 
> 13 ) MBDA developed Meteor BVRAAM and ALARM Anti-radiation missile
> 
> 14) Assistance to be provided to local Indian Public sector companies for Integration of Weapons ranging from India’s Astra BVRAAM to High-speed low drag (HSLD) bombs with the aircraft’s weapons control system. India bound Rafale fighter jets are also rumored to later get specific Indian enhancements which can come handy in the delivery of Nuclear weapons, which obviously will not be confirmed by Indian or French governments.
> 
> https://idrw.org/14-india-specific-enhancements-exclusive-to-india-bound-rafale-fighter-jets/ .


Article said in 2022-23 not in your over-hyped value 2024-25


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## Thorough Pro

Agent Crow's cousins living in the ME have been activated, expect GPS problems


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## Figaro

Gomig-21 said:


> I completely disagree. I don't have a dog in this fight as I respect both countries, China and India so this is about as objective as it comes. But even though the total number is 36 aircraft, they'll be carrying arguably the best A2A missile out to date in the Meteor. The rest will be up to the Indian pilots to get used to the aircraft but my guess is they've already had months of training in France similar to what the Egyptian pilots had. So armed with SPECTRA and the Meteor, one Rafale can cause a whole lotta problems for any adversary.


The Rafael is indeed a very capable plane. But 36 is not going to change the equation at all, especially against the Chinese, which has hundreds of J-10Cs and J-16s and has the capability to produce many more at relatively cheap prices. The initial order of 108 I believe would be far more impactful.

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## Gomig-21

HalfMoon said:


> You are making the mistake of assuming that Egyptian Rafales are same as Indian Rafales.



I don't understand, sorry. Maybe I'm a little slow compared to you smart fellas or maybe I've missed some stuff you already discussed but if you're saying that Egypt has had the Rafale longer hence it can use the Meteor by now while the Indians are just receiving them and so the entire Indian Rafale package won't be ready until what.....looking at your post 2023? No. If they have a priority issue and need them, they can easily expedite them into combat with the professional they have that are very well trained. But I agree that in order to get gelled with all the coms controls, AWACs, EAD systems, IFF interogators and linking the new aircraft into all Indian AWACs assets yes, that takes a bit of time but it can be rushed and made ready sooner than if they had all the time in the world and took their time.



HalfMoon said:


> Read Point 13 below.
> 13 ) MBDA developed Meteor BVRAAM and ALARM Anti-radiation missile



So what are you trying to say? Just come out and say it, man. Enough riddles please we're tired here it's late in the east coast US and time to go to bed, dammit! lol. Are you saying because the Meteor is made by MBDA, it's not yet accessed by India? Or something else? They already have them there. They arrived before the jets lol.

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## HalfMoon

Ultima Thule said:


> Article said in 2022-23 not in your over-hyped value 2024-25



No brother.

The original plan was that India will start receiving Rafales starting September 2019 but the schedule has already been delayed by at least 10 months and they are receiving the first batch at the end of July 2020.

So if you add 10 Months to September 2022 (original final Delivery date) you will get July 2023 as the new date to deliver all the 36 fighters.

Now add another 6 months for Indian enhancements. This will take it to end of January 2024 for Rafales to be ready. Now add additional time for pilots to get operationally trained, you are looking at least 2025 for them to be ready for any battle.

*India-specific Rafale add-ons after delivery of all 36 fighters*


*There are 13 India Specific Enhancement (ISE) capabilities sought by the Indian Air Force (IAF) and they would be incorporated in batches after April 2022, an official source said.*


*“After the 36th jet is delivered, the first 35 aircraft would be modified in India by Dassault Aviation at the rate of seven aircraft a month so that all 36 aircraft would be of the same capability by September 2022,” the official source with knowledge of the matter said.*


*https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...livery-of-all-36-fighters/article25532159.ece*

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## Gomig-21

Figaro said:


> The Rafael is indeed a very capable plane. But 36 is not going to change the equation at all, especially against the Chinese, which has hundreds of J-10Cs and J-16s and has the capability to produce many more at relatively cheap prices. The initial order of 108 I believe would be far more impactful.



India has 260 Su-30MKI also. Not to mention the rest of its formidable fleet that you just can't discount so easily. Their Mirage 2K you can actually add to the Rafales as complimentary aircraft making that number much larger and they share systems with each other such as the Talios pod, but I think the Indians are using the Israeli Lightning and not the French one. So keep that in mind. They have other potent platforms that will be assisted by the Rafales and if mission planning is well constructed, they can cause serious problems and I don't discount China whatsoever. Their fleet including their 24 Su-35 will certainly pose a lot of problems to the IAF and mainly the Su-30MKI. So it will all come down to battlefield management and who has the better library in their intel aircraft and the not just the better AWACs, but the faster one as well and India has some pretty powerful AWACs not to mention who's got the ECM warfare advnatage. There's a lot to factor in.

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## Figaro

HalfMoon said:


> Now add additional time for pilots to get operationally trained, you are looking at least 2025 for them to be ready for any battle.


By that time the J-20B with WS-15 would already be operational lol.



Gomig-21 said:


> India has 260 Su-30MKI also. Not to mention the rest of its formidable fleet that you just can't discount so easily. Their Mirage 2K you can actually add to the Rafales as complimentary aircraft making that number much larger and they share systems with each other such as the Talios pod, but I think the Indians are using the Israeli Lightning and not the French one. So keep that in mind. They have other potent platforms that will be assisted by the Rafales and if mission planning is well constructed, they can cause serious problems and I don't discount China whatsoever. Their fleet including their 24 Su-35 will certainly pose a lot of problems to the IAF and mainly the Su-30MKI. So it will all come down to battlefield management and who has the better library in their intel aircraft and the not just the better AWACs, but the faster one as well and India has some pretty powerful AWACs not to mention who's got the ECM warfare advnatage. There's a lot to factor in.


The J-10 series, J-11B, J-16, Su-35, and not to mention the J-20 would all pose massive problems to the IAF. IMO they should have gone for more orders of Su-30MKIs or even Su-35s to satisfy the imminent 4th generation gap. There is no need to spend a huge amount of money on Rafael fighters, even if you get better BVR capabilities. The BVR capability imo should be solved by the fifth generation fighter aircraft, a la FGFA. India would have been better served to use the money to buy 36 Rafaels to purchase more flankers ... 36 is simply not enough for any meaningful upgrade against the PLAAF or PAF. If I am to be honest, I believe this purchase was highly political and am certain the Modi government received a lot of kick backs ... the purchase at such absorbent prices should not make sense to any observer.

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## HalfMoon

Gomig-21 said:


> I don't understand, sorry. Maybe I'm a little slow compared to you smart fellas or maybe I've missed some stuff you already discussed but if you're saying that Egypt has had the Rafale longer hence it can use the Meteor by now while the Indians are just receiving them and so the entire Indian Rafale package won't be ready until what.....looking at your post 2023? No. If they have a priority issue and need them, they can easily expedite them into combat with the professional they have that are very well trained. But I agree that in order to get gelled with all the coms controls, AWACs, EAD systems, IFF interogators and linking the new aircraft into all Indian AWACs assets yes, that takes a bit of time but it can be rushed and made ready sooner than if they had all the time in the world and took their time.
> 
> 
> 
> So what are you trying to say? Just come out and say it, man. Enough riddles please we're tired here it's late in the east coast US and time to go to bed, dammit! lol. Are you saying because the Meteor is made by MBDA, it's not yet accessed by India? Or something else? They already have them there. They arrived before the jets lol.



I have already shared all the details and described why Indian Rafales will not be combat ready until 2025.

Read my post #108

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...nal-within-a-week.677890/page-8#post-12576016


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## Raj-Hindustani

Figaro said:


> The Rafael is indeed a very capable plane. But 36 is not going to change the equation at all, especially against the Chinese, which has hundreds of J-10Cs and J-16s and has the capability to produce many more at relatively cheap prices. The initial order of 108 I believe would be far more impactful.



We are not going to fight a full war against China.

India and China both will avoid for any such case. 

But for small border incidents or air flight. Rafale will be more than enough to deal with any threat.



Figaro said:


> By that time the J-20B with WS-15 would already be operational lol.
> 
> 
> The J-10 series, J-11B, J-16, Su-35, and not to mention the J-20 would all pose massive problems to the IAF. IMO they should have gone for more orders of Su-30MKIs or even Su-35s to satisfy the imminent 4th generation gap. There is no need to spend a huge amount of money on Rafael fighters, even if you get better BVR capabilities. The BVR capability imo should be solved by the fifth generation fighter aircraft, a la FGFA. India would have been better served to use the money to buy 36 Rafaels to purchase more flankers ... 36 is simply not enough for any meaningful upgrade against the PLAAF or PAF. If I am to be honest, I believe this purchase was highly political and am certain the Modi government received a lot of kick backs ... the purchase at such absorbent prices should not make sense to any observer.



We need to upgrade su 30 mki and equipped with new missiles with range between 150-200km.

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## HalfMoon

Raj-Hindustani said:


> We are not going to fight a full war against China.



Correction: India does not have balls to fight with either Pakistan or China let alone with both of them at once.



Raj-Hindustani said:


> India and China both will avoid for any such case.



Correction: India will avoid war with Pakistan and/or China at any cost.



Raj-Hindustani said:


> But for small border incidents or air flight. Rafale will be more than enough to deal with any threat.



Correction: Rafales are useless against PAF's F-16+JF-17s and/or PLAAF's J-10/J-16/SU-35/J-20s. For small incursions and occupation of Indian land by Pakistan and China we have Surrender Modi who is always ready to pull back Indian troops to disengage from any potential confrontation and promptly issuing the following statement

*"Neither is anyone inside our territory nor is any of our post captured" - Indian PM Narender Modi (aka Surrender Modi)

*

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## pakistanitarzan

Again, its not the car that wins the race, its the man behind the wheels

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## Vanguard One

Figaro said:


> The Rafael is indeed a very capable plane. But 36 is not going to change the equation at all, especially against the Chinese, which has hundreds of J-10Cs and J-16s and has the capability to produce many more at relatively cheap prices. The initial order of 108 I believe would be far more impactful.



Don't think it will be any good in Indian hands, they will probably shoot it down and then say they thought it was a pigeon.

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## Raj-Hindustani

HalfMoon said:


> Correction: India does not have balls to fight with either Pakistan or China let alone with both of them at once.
> 
> 
> Correction: India will avoid war with Pakistan and/or China at any cost.
> 
> 
> 
> Correction: Rafales are useless against PAF's F-16+JF-17s and/or PLAAF's J-10/J-16/SU-35/J-20s. For small incursions and occupation of Indian land by Pakistan and China we have Surrender Modi who is always ready to pull back Indian troops to disengage from any potential confrontation and promptly issuing the following statement
> 
> *"Neither is anyone inside our territory nor is any of our post captured" - Indian PM Narender Modi (aka Surrender Modi)
> 
> *



192466"]Correction: India does not have balls to fight with either Pakistan or China let alone with both of them at once.

Correction: India will avoid war with Pakistan and/or China at any cost.


*Correction - it is same as Pakistan prime minister says that we can fight a war against india because we don't balls alone. Hoping from China or happy with tweets.*


Rafales are useless against PAF's F-16+JF-17s
*Pls don't make the jokes... Its a serous thread *


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## Aaloo Tikki

I S I said:


> Jai Rafale
> View attachment 655556
> these are not lemons but Indian balls.


Nope these are green balls. Indian ones are orange ones.

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## Sam.

Gomig-21 said:


> India has 260 Su-30MKI also. Not to mention the rest of its formidable fleet that you just can't discount so easily. Their Mirage 2K you can actually add to the Rafales as complimentary aircraft making that number much larger and they share systems with each other such as the Talios pod, but I think the Indians are using the Israeli Lightning and not the French one. So keep that in mind. They have other potent platforms that will be assisted by the Rafales and if mission planning is well constructed, they can cause serious problems and I don't discount China whatsoever. Their fleet including their 24 Su-35 will certainly pose a lot of problems to the IAF and mainly the Su-30MKI. So it will all come down to battlefield management and who has the better library in their intel aircraft and the not just the better AWACs, but the faster one as well and India has some pretty powerful AWACs not to mention who's got the ECM warfare advnatage. There's a lot to factor in.



Your post & knowledge on the subject is not well regarded here. You are professor in front of teenagers uneducated kids who are here for trolling. Knowledge is left PDF for some time and only few folks left who lurks and don't post at all.

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## darksider

Egypt also getting rafale but look like india is getting some alien tech which will make india invincible.
Soon they will worship rafale and will build a temple.

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## xeuss

HalfMoon said:


> No brother.
> 
> The original plan was that India will start receiving Rafales starting September 2019 but the schedule has already been delayed by at least 10 months and they are receiving the first batch at the end of July 2020.
> 
> So if you add 10 Months to September 2022 (original final Delivery date) you will get July 2023 as the new date to deliver all the 36 fighters.
> 
> Now add another 6 months for Indian enhancements. This will take it to end of January 2024 for Rafales to be ready. Now add additional time for pilots to get operationally trained, you are looking at least 2025 for them to be ready for any battle.



Per this news article, all Rafales will be in India by end 2021

https://indianexpress.com/article/e...ts-leave-for-india-what-happens-next-6525806/


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## Andhadhun

*India’s Ambassador to France Mr. Jawed Ashraf* and *India’s Air Attaché Air Commodore Hilal Ahmad Rather *in the cockpit of Rafale before it left for India. 

Indian *Air Force Officer Hilal who is originally from Anantnag in Kashmir *played an important role in the smooth delivery.


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## BON PLAN

Crixus said:


> Hopefully Indian planners will not repeat the mistake of Mirage 2000 ....the only fighter which has proved its worth in all imp. IAF missions since their arrivals ....India should buy rafales in good numbers to counter both eastern and western fronts


The fact that 2 air bases are accomodated for Rafale is a clear signal for a second batch purchase. At least.

The IAF will not make twice the M2000 error : a too small fleet.
They know that Rafale is fully versatile and effective. Far better than M2000, which is loved in IAF. 

My opinion from the beginning is an indian Rafale fleet of 90 minimum.



dbc said:


> Much...Much...Much...shorter than the Rafale, even shorter for the second hand meteors IAF purchased.


sorry Bro, but it is BS.
1) you (and I !) don't know the real life span of a Meteor. 
2) The Meteor that France give you (at the special Indian request) may be perfectly new, if they were not fit on a plane before. The life span is mainly the time under the wings, and not the time spending.



dbc said:


> No laser tracking has nothing to do with image, it either rides the laser all the way to its target 'beam rider' or it simply tracks the reflected light.


False.
To guide the laser you need image. The laser beam is not directed on map coordinates.


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## polanski

IAF Rafale Fighters Started Ferry Flight To India: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/07/28/iaf-rafale-fighters-started-ferry-flight-to-india/


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## Dazzler

Dustom999 said:


> Infact they will straight away go on to bomb chengdu airbase and return to France dealership for first 1000miles free service. Warranty trouble if you dont get the first service done at official dealership. Then they will return and lads will go for a Vaishno mata family trip.


Good to see some lovely humor coming from the neighborhood. 



Armchair said:


> PAF has surprise waiting for them.


Come-on man let them have some fun.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Signalian said:


> Good analysis.
> 
> Back in time, during its hay-days we used to listen that SU-30MKI can also carry up to 10 AAMs, majority BVR missiles. With 240 aircraft in air, that's roughly 2400 AAMs in the air at one time. Enough to reign the skies.



Apparently only India operates an air force.

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## Andhadhun

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Apparently only India operates an air force.



India is the one that operates an air force at sea level while china operates two operational airports and airbase in Tibet at more than 11,000 Feet above sea level.

Now guess what happens to Oxygen breathing humans at that height ? Now guess what happens to oxygen breathing jet engines at that height ?

Now guess what is the air density at that height ? and now try guess what happens to aircraft that use this air density to create lift that can make this heavier than air metal body fly.

Now guess what happens to pilots living on desolated air bases with low oxygen and poor serviceability of aircrafts ? and now guess what happens when they have to fight an air battle in these conditions ? lol.

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## Ultima Thule

Andhadhun said:


> India is the one that operates an air force at sea level while china operates two operational airports and airbase in Tibet at more than 11,000 Feet or 11 km above sea level.
> 
> Now guess what happens to Oxygen breathing humans at that height ? Now guess what happens to oxygen breathing jet engines at that height ?
> 
> Now guess what is the air density at that height ? and now try guess what happens to aircraft that use this air density to create lift that can make this heavier than air metal body fly.
> 
> Now guess what happens to pilots living on desolated air bases with low oxygen and poor serviceability of aircrafts ? and now guess what happens when they have to fight an air battle in these conditions ? lol.


So you're telling to fight Chinese jets in laddakh your fighter jets comes to sea level like Mumbai/Southeastern coastal India
What you're talking about think before you post


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## Dustom999

Andhadhun said:


> Tibet at more than 11,000 Feet or 11 km above sea level.
> lol.


Height of Mt.Everest 8.8km. Height of Chinese air bases 11km.
Internet and democracy have taken away practices of decision making by the sane ones only!

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## Mrc

Dustom999 said:


> Height of Mt.Everest 8.8km. Height of Chinese air bases 11km.
> Internet and democracy have taken away practices of decision making by the sane ones only!


May b its hanging in air like a flying aircraft carrier

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## Imran Khan

indians are creating hype like rafale takeoff from france and direct go LOAC bomb chinese and then land in LEH air base . what a stupidity man it will take months and years to be master on these jets .

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## Andhadhun

Dustom999 said:


> Height of Mt.Everest 8.8km. Height of Chinese air bases 11km.
> Internet and democracy have taken away practices of decision making by the sane ones only!



Mixed up feet and meters. 

Tibet air bases are more than 11,000 Feet high. 

Choke on that.



Imran Khan said:


> indians are creating hype like rafale takeoff from france and direct go LOAC bomb chinese and then land in LEH air base . what a stupidity man it will take months and years to be master on these jets .



Rafale is based out of Ambala, not Leh and they have a range of 3,700 km. 

Distance between Ambala and Leh is 450 km.


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## Dustom999

Andhadhun said:


> Mixed up feet and meters.
> 
> Tibet air bases are more than 11,000 Feet high.
> 
> Choke on that.
> 
> 
> 
> Rafale is based out of Ambala, not Leh and they have a range of 3,700 km.
> 
> Distance between Ambala and Leh is 450 km.


Haha. People who don't even realize they are making floating air bases, people who don't know mtrs and feet, are everywhere, in hoards and hoards, not just you! And they are talking about fighter aircrafts, designs and technology everywhere. What messy times to be living in.

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## Andhadhun

Dustom999 said:


> Haha. People who don't even realize they are making floating air bases, people who don't know mtrs and feet, are everywhere, in hoards and hoards, not just you! And they are talking about fighter aircrafts, designs and technology everywhere. What messy times to be living in.



LOL..... its pathetic when you have to quibble over mtrs and feet when you have lost the argument and the plot  

You have my sympathies, though you do not deserve it.

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## batmannow

Nice ambani show which has brought him lot of kick back? 
and the money he ill be sharing with MODI JI, this RAFAEL hype is just to get more public emotions behind more weapons deal and that's all! 
As most of them are training versions of RAFEALs which won't be pitched against PLAAF which can shot them down any time they want?
Again preasure will be mounting again on modi ji, after getting Rafaels can india take back its lost lands from PLA or not???


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## Dustom999

Andhadhun said:


> LOL..... its pathetic when you have to quibble over mtrs and feet when you have lost the argument and the plot
> 
> You have my sympathies, though you do not deserve it.


There is nothing to discuss! 
1.There are ways and means to take off with full offensive load from any airbase any where in the world. All professionals air forces know how to. 
2. Invading enemy country's air space and conduct mission doesn't always require to take off from forward airbase. 
3. I am back to Netflix for now, i don't want to be dragged down to your level!

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## Ultima Thule

Andhadhun said:


> Rafale is based out of Ambala, not Leh and they have a range of 3,700 km.
> 
> Distance between Ambala and Leh is 450 km.


This is FERRY RANGE without any weapon and targeting pods. Combat range is much less for RAFALE


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## Andhadhun

Ultima Thule said:


> This is FERRY RANGE without any weapon and targeting pods. Combat range is much less for RAFALE



That is where Air 2 Air refueling comes in. 

How do you think they managed to fly all the way from France to India ?


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## Ultima Thule

Andhadhun said:


> That is where Air 2 Air refueling comes in.
> 
> How do you think they managed to fly all the way from France to India ?


did you buy Airbus A-330 MRTT??? and other way to get India is to transit different Airports of the the world


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## Andhadhun

Dustom999 said:


> There is nothing to discuss!
> 1.There are ways and means to take off with full offensive load from any airbase any where in the world. All professionals air forces know how to.
> 2. Invading enemy country's air space and conduct mission doesn't always require to take off from forward airbase.
> 3. I am back to Netflix for now, i don't want to be dragged down to your level!



LOL..... it must a neat trick when "professional air forces" know how to defy the laws of physics and Biology  

1. THIS is jet performance in high altitude. 







2. This is direct correlation between LIFT and air density. 






3. This is human performance in high altitude,


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## Ultima Thule

Andhadhun said:


> LOL..... it must a neat trick when "professional air forces" know how to defy the laws of physics and Biology
> 
> 1. THIS is jet performance in high altitude.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. This is direct correlation between LIFT and air density.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3. This is human performance in high altitude,


And to fight with Chinese fighter jets your fighter jets will take off from Indian coasts according to you, kid how old you're


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## Andhadhun

Ultima Thule said:


> did you buy Airbus A-330 MRTT??? and other way to get India is to transit different Airports of the the world



E.g. 1,






E.g. 2,


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## Ultima Thule

Andhadhun said:


> E.g. 1,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E.g. 2,


That's doesn't means you IL-78 can refuel RAFALE also


----------



## Andhadhun

Ultima Thule said:


> And to fight with Chinese fighter jets your fighter jets will take off from Indian coasts according to you, kid how old you're



Sea level is not equal to sea coast. 

No go back to school and ask for a refund.



Ultima Thule said:


> That's doesn't means you IL-78 can refuel RAFALE also



Why not ?

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## Ultima Thule

Andhadhun said:


> Sea level is not equal to sea coast.
> 
> No go back to school and ask for a refund.


Then please explain to us what sea level means professor


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## Andhadhun

Ultima Thule said:


> Then please explain to us what sea level means professor



It means just that, sea level. 

Amabla is just 264 meters above sea level. 

Which means it has the same impact of Rafale take off at sea level.


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## Pakistan Space Agency

Andhadhun said:


> India is the one that operates an air force at sea level while china operates two operational airports and airbase in Tibet at more than 11,000 Feet above sea level.
> 
> Now guess what happens to Oxygen breathing humans at that height ? Now guess what happens to oxygen breathing jet engines at that height ?
> 
> Now guess what is the air density at that height ? and now try guess what happens to aircraft that use this air density to create lift that can make this heavier than air metal body fly.
> 
> Now guess what happens to pilots living on desolated air bases with low oxygen and poor serviceability of aircrafts ? and now guess what happens when they have to fight an air battle in these conditions ? lol.



What are you, stupid?

The Chinese have been permanently living there thoughout the year for the past 3 years. They've been training, exercising and beating Indian soldiers to death and taking 60 sq km.

You guys keep practicing in the indian ocean because apparently according to Indian intelligence that's where the Chinese decided to invade Galwan Valley from.


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## Ultima Thule

Andhadhun said:


> Sea level is not equal to sea coast.
> 
> No go back to school and ask for a refund.
> 
> 
> 
> Why not ?


Your tanker needs new softwares to integrate RAFALE, or may be i am wrong might be RAFALE is eligible to refuel your tanker, i really confused???



Andhadhun said:


> It means just that, sea level.
> 
> Amabla is just 264 meters above sea level.
> 
> Which means it has the same impact of Rafale take off at sea level.


Ok but Tibet is not only base in China they have bases in southwest China it will take few minutes too reach near to ladakh with full afterburner and refueling at high altitude, there is news and Thread on PDF that YOUR first consignment of RAFALE have placed at LEH airbase near to laddakh than Ambala???


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## Andhadhun

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> What are you, stupid?
> 
> The Chinese have been permanently living there thoughout the year for the past 3 years. They've been training, exercising and beating Indian soldiers to death and taking 60 sq km.
> 
> You guys keep practicing in the indian ocean because apparently according to Indian intelligence that's where the Chinese decided to invade Galwan Valley from.



 ........ NOBODY except the Tibetans, live permanently in Tibet 

If PLA soldiers are put in isolated Tibet for 3 years, they will be a mutiny. These are typical 1 child emperors who are not exactly eager to be there.

No Pilot will go to Tibet on a posting unless it is a Punishment posting. That too in an isolated airbase which is quite literally Thousands of miles from civilization and cold and low oxygen atmosphere which gives one a constant headache unless one is born and brought up in tibet.

There is a good reason China barely has 4 airbases in its border with India. Two near kashmir and two near arunachal pradesh.

At best they can occupy the LAC unilaterally and then refuse to go back till the winter MAKES Them go back like they had to go back in galwan due to the melting snow and flooded river. 

All their bravado will melt away when they face the winter at the top of the Himalayas. LOL. It would be worse than Nepolian attacking Russia in the middle of winter.



Ultima Thule said:


> Your tanker needs new softwares to integrate RAFALE, or may be i am wrong might be RAFALE is eligible to refuel your tanker, i really confused???



I just posted a Video of Rafale refueling with IAF IL 78 . Where is the confusion ?



Ultima Thule said:


> Ok but Tibet is not only base in China they have bases in southwest China it will take few minutes too reach near to ladakh with full afterburner and refueling at high altitude, there is news and Thread on PDF that YOUR first consignment of RAFALE have placed at LEH airbase near to laddakh than Ambala???



Rafale is in Ambala, not Leh.

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## Ultima Thule

Andhadhun said:


> Rafale is in Ambala, not Leh.


You're not IAF and there is a source telling your first consignment of RAFALE will be place in Leh due to high tension situation with China intermediately after arrival in India (within few day of arrival)


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## Andhadhun

Ultima Thule said:


> You're not IAF and there is a source telling your first consignment of RAFALE will be place in Leh due to high tension situation with China intermediately after arrival in India (within few day of arrival)



LOL. WRONG. 

https://zeenews.india.com/india/amb...hter-aircraft-security-beefed-up-2298871.html

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## Ultima Thule

Andhadhun said:


> LOL. WRONG.
> 
> https://zeenews.india.com/india/amb...hter-aircraft-security-beefed-up-2298871.html


Oh dude there is recent thread on PDF from Indian source that telling that your RAFALE could be place in Leh started by your countryman, and what's LOL, its logical that every country place there best equipment (military) near to theater/enemy/in high tension situations???


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## Andhadhun

Ultima Thule said:


> Oh dude there is recent thread on PDF from Indian source that telling that your RAFALE could be place in Leh started by your countryman, and what's LOL, its logical that every country place there best equipment (military) near to theater/enemy/in high tension situations???



1. Leh near the border and it will put the aircraft at unnecessary risk. 
2. It is at high altitude and that makes the aircraft sluggish
3. No facility for briefing for the pilots or their rest and comfort. 
4. No facility for maintaining the Rafale exist in Leh. 

All in all, its a brain fart.


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## Ultima Thule

Andhadhun said:


> 1. Leh near the border and it will put the aircraft at unnecessary risk.
> 2. It is at high altitude and that makes the aircraft sluggish
> 3. No facility for briefing for the pilots or their rest and comfort.
> 4. No facility for maintaining the Rafale exist in Leh.
> 
> All in all, its a brain fart.


Than why you place MKI/Mig-29/M-2000 and Tejas in Leh???


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## Andhadhun

Ultima Thule said:


> Than why you place MKI/Mig-29/M-2000 and Tejas in Leh???



Mig 29 has good performance in Leh and is a VERY RUGGED aircraft that does well in rough condition. Apache attack copters are also located in Leh. 

I assume they have facility to handle both these birds.

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## Ultima Thule

Andhadhun said:


> Mig 29 has good performance in Leh and is a VERY RUGGED aircraft that does well in rough condition. Apache attack copters are also located in Leh.
> 
> I assume they have facility to handle both these birds.


And MKI??? and there also pics that Tejas was there too


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## Andhadhun

Ultima Thule said:


> And MKI??? and there also pics that Tejas was there too



No MKI in leh. Neither is Tejas.

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## Ultima Thule

Andhadhun said:


> No MKI in leh. Neither is Tejas.


OH dude there is international news that MKI deployed in Leh by India and why you thinks that International news source is farting and you're always right, and as for Tejas may be its for just for to train pilots at high altitude


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## Andhadhun

Ultima Thule said:


> OH dude there is international news that MKI deployed in Leh by India and why you thinks that International news source is farting and you're always right, and as for Tejas may be its for just for to train pilots at high altitude



Then why ask me ? post that link and be done with it.

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## Ultima Thule

Andhadhun said:


> Then why ask me ? post that link and be done with it.


i have no responsibility to spoon feed you google yourself, and see who is farting

hi @Andhadhun zeenews also reporting there will be a possibility that RAFALE will deploy in Leh
https://zeenews.india.com/india/iaf...o-stop-chinese-incursions-at-lac-2296961.html


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## Andhadhun

Ultima Thule said:


> i have no responsibility to spoon feed you google yourself, and see who is farting
> 
> hi @Andhadhun zeenews also reporting there will be a possibility that RAFALE will deploy in Leh
> https://zeenews.india.com/india/iaf...o-stop-chinese-incursions-at-lac-2296961.html



There is a "possibility" of everything including rain and me having sex with miss India. 

MKI for now are in srinagar and will continue to operate from there.


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> sorry Bro, but it is BS.
> 1) you (and I !) don't know the real life span of a Meteor.
> 2) The Meteor that France give you (at the special Indian request) may be perfectly new, if they were not fit on a plane before. The life span is mainly the time under the wings, and not the time spending.


1. I know the life span of solid propellants unless Meteor uses alien tech it has a much..much ...much shorter than the Rafale. Typically, AAMs are sent back to manufacturers between 3-5 years for maintenance to check and replace solid propellants if signs of crystallization or degradation is detected during testing. Containerized missiles have a much longer shelf life up to 20 years since the container protects the propellants from the elements.


2. It's already two years old. Under wing time is more relevant to IR Missiles that require a cryogenic cooling vacuum flask. Captive carry time for the Meteor is reported as a 1,000 hrs by Janes
https://www.defense.gouv.fr/espanol/dga/actualite/commande-de-200-missiles-meteor



BON PLAN said:


> False.
> To guide the laser you need image. The laser beam is not directed on map coordinates.



Hilarious, laser target designator provides the weapon with *grid coordinates with GPS/Elevation/Azimuth.
*

The Lockheed Martin *Sniper* is a targeting pod for military aircraft that provides positive target identification, autonomous tracking, *GPS coordinate generation*, and precise weapons guidance from extended standoff ranges.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_Advanced_Targeting_Pod

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## Ultima Thule

Andhadhun said:


> There is a "possibility" of everything including rain and me having sex with miss India.
> 
> MKI for now are in srinagar and will continue to operate from there.


Don't troll, and MKI is also in Leh
https://theprint.in/defence/iafs-su...ions-with-china-but-no-jets-scrambled/419602/
https://eurasiantimes.com/indian-ai...ir Force (IAF,the ongoing tensions with China.
and dont tell me these sources are wrong and you're right


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## Incog_nito

Will this arrival means the completion of 36 rafaels? and did they already ordered another 44?


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## HalfMoon

Incog_nito said:


> Will this arrival means the completion of 36 rafaels? and did they already ordered another 44?



Only 5 Rafale skeletons arriving now for Indian exhibition. 

It will be 2024 at the least before all 36 Rafales are delivered.

India does not have money for additional Rafales.

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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> 1. I know the life span of solid propellants unless Meteor uses alien tech it has a much..much ...much shorter than the Rafale. Typically, AAMs are sent back to manufacturers between 3-5 years for maintenance to check and replace solid propellants if signs of crystallization or degradation is detected during testing. Containerized missiles have a much longer shelf life up to 20 years since the container protects the propellants from the elements.


Nothing special about Meteor. 
Meteor is not said to have a shorter life than AMRAAM for exemple. Please stop trying without success to convince us.



dbc said:


> 2. It's already two years old. Under wing time is more relevant to IR Missiles that require a cryogenic cooling vacuum flask. Captive carry time for the Meteor is reported as a 1,000 hrs by Janes


Two years? Maybe. Maybe not. The first French air force Meteor were delivered two years ago, but the last hasn't been delivered... So your allegation is not proved.

Why speaking of cryogenic cooling? Meteor has no IR model. Only radar seeker.



dbc said:


> Hilarious, laser target designator provides the weapon with *grid coordinates with GPS/Elevation/Azimuth.*


100 x Hilarious : how a laser pod can design a moving target without image treatment?
The ground coordinates may be used for a first designation, but the fine tuning is made through image correlation.

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

SOURCE: INDIA TODAY







The first batch of five Rafale jets took off from France on Monday starting its journey home. The jets are expected to be operationally ready when it lands in Ambala, a new home for the fighter aircraft, on July 29 amidst the ongoing tussle between India and China.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has made it clear that the pilots, ground crew and the fighter will be operationally ready as the jets reach India. Even though Rafale is a 4.5 generation aircraft and China claims that its J-20 is a 5th generation, the Rafale has enough capabilities to counter the Chinese premier aircraft, say experts.

*Rafale can counter China’s premier fighter jet Chengdu J-20*

“Rafale is far superior to the J-20, the Chengdu fighter of China. Even though it’s believed to be a 5th generation fighter, it is probably at best a 3.5 generation aircraft. It’s got a third generation engine as we have in the Sukhoi,” said Air Marshal R Nambiar (retd) who flight tested the Rafale fighter jets for India.

The stealth characteristics of the J-20 are also under suspicion, say experts based on several analysis done by the Indian Air Force. The J-20 was hyped to be a highly stealthy aircraft and that it could conceal itself in operations and not be easily detected.

*J-20 weapons system no match for Rafale*

Experts say if the J-20 was the best, why would the Chinese go for the Russian Su35. But the Russian jets too might not be able to compete with the Rafale.



https://www.indiatoday.in/news-anal...on-of-the-two-fighter-jets-1705178-2020-07-28


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## INDIAPOSITIVE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288055472361152512

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288071685565030401

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## alphapak

Whatever fighter jet the Indians get is the best in the world. First it was
the SU30 and now the Rafale.

PAF knocked out 1 SU30 and they lost confidence in it.

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## HalfMoon

INDIAPOSITIVE said:


> SOURCE: INDIA TODAY
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first batch of five Rafale jets took off from France on Monday starting its journey home. The jets are expected to be operationally ready when it lands in Ambala, a new home for the fighter aircraft, on July 29 amidst the ongoing tussle between India and China.
> 
> The Indian Air Force (IAF) has made it clear that the pilots, ground crew and the fighter will be operationally ready as the jets reach India. Even though Rafale is a 4.5 generation aircraft and China claims that its J-20 is a 5th generation, the Rafale has enough capabilities to counter the Chinese premier aircraft, say experts.
> 
> *Rafale can counter China’s premier fighter jet Chengdu J-20*
> 
> “Rafale is far superior to the J-20, the Chengdu fighter of China. Even though it’s believed to be a 5th generation fighter, it is probably at best a 3.5 generation aircraft. It’s got a third generation engine as we have in the Sukhoi,” said Air Marshal R Nambiar (retd) who flight tested the Rafale fighter jets for India.
> 
> The stealth characteristics of the J-20 are also under suspicion, say experts based on several analysis done by the Indian Air Force. The J-20 was hyped to be a highly stealthy aircraft and that it could conceal itself in operations and not be easily detected.
> 
> *J-20 weapons system no match for Rafale*
> 
> Experts say if the J-20 was the best, why would the Chinese go for the Russian Su35. But the Russian jets too might not be able to compete with the Rafale.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.indiatoday.in/news-anal...on-of-the-two-fighter-jets-1705178-2020-07-28




Indians!

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## Uguduwa

none of this can save India. Only communism can.


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## Dil Pakistan

INDIAPOSITIVE said:


> SOURCE: INDIA TODAY
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first batch of five Rafale jets took off from France on Monday starting its journey home. The jets are expected to be operationally ready when it lands in Ambala, a new home for the fighter aircraft, on July 29 amidst the ongoing tussle between India and China.
> 
> The Indian Air Force (IAF) has made it clear that the pilots, ground crew and the fighter will be operationally ready as the jets reach India. Even though Rafale is a 4.5 generation aircraft and China claims that its J-20 is a 5th generation, the Rafale has enough capabilities to counter the Chinese premier aircraft, say experts.
> 
> *Rafale can counter China’s premier fighter jet Chengdu J-20*
> 
> “Rafale is far superior to the J-20, the Chengdu fighter of China. Even though it’s believed to be a 5th generation fighter, it is probably at best a 3.5 generation aircraft. It’s got a third generation engine as we have in the Sukhoi,” said Air Marshal R Nambiar (retd) who flight tested the Rafale fighter jets for India.
> 
> The stealth characteristics of the J-20 are also under suspicion, say experts based on several analysis done by the Indian Air Force. The J-20 was hyped to be a highly stealthy aircraft and that it could conceal itself in operations and not be easily detected.
> 
> *J-20 weapons system no match for Rafale*
> 
> Experts say if the J-20 was the best, why would the Chinese go for the Russian Su35. But the Russian jets too might not be able to compete with the Rafale.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.indiatoday.in/news-anal...on-of-the-two-fighter-jets-1705178-2020-07-28



India Today? right? 

Continue reading it........

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## _NOBODY_

INDIAPOSITIVE said:


> SOURCE: INDIA TODAY
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first batch of five Rafale jets took off from France on Monday starting its journey home. The jets are expected to be operationally ready when it lands in Ambala, a new home for the fighter aircraft, on July 29 amidst the ongoing tussle between India and China.
> 
> The Indian Air Force (IAF) has made it clear that the pilots, ground crew and the fighter will be operationally ready as the jets reach India. Even though Rafale is a 4.5 generation aircraft and China claims that its J-20 is a 5th generation, the Rafale has enough capabilities to counter the Chinese premier aircraft, say experts.
> 
> *Rafale can counter China’s premier fighter jet Chengdu J-20*
> 
> “Rafale is far superior to the J-20, the Chengdu fighter of China. Even though it’s believed to be a 5th generation fighter, it is probably at best a 3.5 generation aircraft. It’s got a third generation engine as we have in the Sukhoi,” said Air Marshal R Nambiar (retd) who flight tested the Rafale fighter jets for India.
> 
> The stealth characteristics of the J-20 are also under suspicion, say experts based on several analysis done by the Indian Air Force. The J-20 was hyped to be a highly stealthy aircraft and that it could conceal itself in operations and not be easily detected.
> 
> *J-20 weapons system no match for Rafale*
> 
> Experts say if the J-20 was the best, why would the Chinese go for the Russian Su35. But the Russian jets too might not be able to compete with the Rafale.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.indiatoday.in/news-anal...on-of-the-two-fighter-jets-1705178-2020-07-28


I hope all Indians will believe this, their arrogance is a blessing for us.



INDIAPOSITIVE said:


> *Rafale can counter China’s premier fighter jet Chengdu J-20*
> 
> “Rafale is far superior to the J-20, the Chengdu fighter of China. Even though it’s believed to be a 5th generation fighter, it is probably at best a 3.5 generation aircraft. It’s got a third generation engine as we have in the Sukhoi,” said Air Marshal R Nambiar (retd) who flight tested the Rafale fighter jets for India.


Wow, he can't be serious?

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## HalfMoon

Uguduwa said:


> none of this can save India. Only communism can.



Even communism failed in India.


----------



## I S I

INDIAPOSITIVE said:


> SOURCE: INDIA TODAY
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first batch of five Rafale jets took off from France on Monday starting its journey home. The jets are expected to be operationally ready when it lands in Ambala, a new home for the fighter aircraft, on July 29 amidst the ongoing tussle between India and China.
> 
> The Indian Air Force (IAF) has made it clear that the pilots, ground crew and the fighter will be operationally ready as the jets reach India. Even though Rafale is a 4.5 generation aircraft and China claims that its J-20 is a 5th generation, the Rafale has enough capabilities to counter the Chinese premier aircraft, say experts.
> 
> *Rafale can counter China’s premier fighter jet Chengdu J-20*
> 
> “Rafale is far superior to the J-20, the Chengdu fighter of China. Even though it’s believed to be a 5th generation fighter, it is probably at best a 3.5 generation aircraft. It’s got a third generation engine as we have in the Sukhoi,” said Air Marshal R Nambiar (retd) who flight tested the Rafale fighter jets for India.
> 
> The stealth characteristics of the J-20 are also under suspicion, say experts based on several analysis done by the Indian Air Force. The J-20 was hyped to be a highly stealthy aircraft and that it could conceal itself in operations and not be easily detected.
> 
> *J-20 weapons system no match for Rafale*
> 
> Experts say if the J-20 was the best, why would the Chinese go for the Russian Su35. But the Russian jets too might not be able to compete with the Rafale.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.indiatoday.in/news-anal...on-of-the-two-fighter-jets-1705178-2020-07-28


Is it only me or anyone else also thinks that as soon as Rafales land in India, Indians gonna put their weiner in it to express their love(& lust)?

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## sathya

Funny thread, India got Rafale, suddenly Rafale lost its relevance.

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## The Ronin

Photographs trickled in today of the Indian Air Force’s first batch of 5 Rafale jets getting some gas mid-air over the Mediterranean Sea on Monday on their seven-hour ferry flight from Merignac, France to the Al Dhafra air base in UAE. Two French Air Force Airbus A330 Multirole Tanker Transports (MRTT) kept the fighters fueled for the long first leg. While one of the tankers landed at Al Dhafra along with the Rafales, the second continued east to India’s capital Delhi to unload a cargo of Covid19 equipment, including ventilators.

While the focus has remained fixed on the Rafales — the first imported fighters to enter IAF service since the Russian Su-30K (and later MKI) at the turn of the millenium, the ferry flight — and especially the sparkling images of the Rafales tanking up en route — has served as a hard reminder of the IAF’s serially fruitless efforts to buy new generation flight refueling aircraft. The IAF currently operates a small fleet of Russian Il-78M FRAs based at the Agra air base, and has been looking to acquire new, more capable tankers for over fourteen years now.

It was a particular brand of irony, perhaps, that the tankers that fueled the IAF Rafales on their ferry flight Monday, were the precise same type — Airbus A330 MRTT — that the IAF has had to drop plans of acquiring _twice_ before owing to roadblocks on cost. In fact, the Indian Air Force is reported to be so despondent about another contest throwing up any fresh result, that it is seriously considering leasing tankers as a medium term option.

Things have changed dramatically since 2016 when the Indian Air Force was contemplating floating a fresh tanker tender. As Livefist had reported in detail at the time, the big entrant into any new contest would have been Boeing’s 767 based KC-46A Pegasus. If the IAF chooses to drop leasing plans and attempt a straight capital acquisition, it will be a face-off between the MRTT and Pegasus. In 2018, it issued a request for information (RFI) to trigger its third attempt at acquiring 6 tankers, but that effort hasn’t moved forward. But so convinced is the IAF that such energies will hit a cost wall yet again that they are seriously considering the lease option. The IAF has spent the better part of a year framing requirements for the lease route, and is understood to have made enquiries with the US Air Force too about available lease models.

And while border tensions with China have allowed the Indian armed forces to justify and push through acquisitions without the familiar fuss of red tape, the IAF sees fierce budgetary pressures as possibly greater reason to look seriously at the leasing option.

The path ahead is replete with self-imposed complications, in the best traditions of Indian defence planning. The A330, for instance, is India’s platform of choice for a proposed AWACS platform being developed by the DRDO. In 2015, the Indian MoD had approved plans to acquire two A330s for the AWACS program, largely because the A330 was also the ‘winner’ in the IAF’s then living-breathing tanker contest. Livefist has detailed that in this post five years ago. In 2018, clearly amplifying the IAF’s increasing exasperation, it informed the DRDO that the proposed A330 AWACS needed to double as a tanker.

Both Boeing and Airbus have been informed of the IAF’s plans to consider the lease option and have both communicated that they are available to provide any information that may support a decision one way or the other. In very real terms, this would be more Airbus’s loss than Boeing’s by many miles. While the European conglomerate has struggled to close military airframe deals in India, Boeing has been on an uninterrupted roll in India, with deals for C-17, P-8I, AH-64E Apache and CH-47F Chinook in the bag, deliveries of more P-8Is and Apaches in the offing — and an additional deal for the P-8Is likely to be pushed through next year. If Airbus has had a serial run of tough luck so far, its active current opportunities in India too are far from straightforward. The Airbus-Tata bid to build and replace the IAF’s doddering HS748 Avros with the C295 has been adrift for years now, while its bid for the Indian Navy’s 111 naval utility helicopter (NUH) contest remains complicatedly linked to the Strategic Partnership (SP) model.

Covid19 pressures and border tensions are having contradictory pressures on the impulse to procure and recapitalise. It remains to be seen where things land on tankers and beyond.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/202...y1tPG3Byah9Ji3b36UeYimcVoV6yVMtWqXtYyX3Y4QSFg

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## Amavous

*Rafale landing: Sec 144 imposed near Ambala airbase, photography prohibited*
*Jul 28, 2020, 11:06PM ISTSource: ANI
*
Ahead of Rafale jets landing in Ambala on July 29, Police informed about the security arrangements. “In view of Rafale's landing tomorrow, the administration is on a high alert. 

Section 144 has been imposed in 4 villages closer to Ambala airbase. Gathering of people on roofs and photography during landing has been strictly prohibited,” Munish Sehgal, DSP Traffic, Ambala said. Further informing about Ambala Cantt Ram Kumar, DSP Ambala Cantt said, “The Ambala Cantt area is a 'no-drone area' as it is a sensitive zone.

Also, no photography is allowed in the area. If anyone violates these orders, action will be taken against them.” The first batch of Rafale jets took off from France to join the Indian Air Force on July 27. The jets will join the Indian Air Force fleet at Ambala in Haryana on July 29.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...photography-prohibited/videoshow/77226968.cms


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288189846473682944

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## HalfMoon

Amavous said:


> *Rafale landing: Sec 144 imposed near Ambala airbase, photography prohibited*
> *Jul 28, 2020, 11:06PM ISTSource: ANI
> *
> Ahead of Rafale jets landing in Ambala on July 29, Police informed about the security arrangements. “In view of Rafale's landing tomorrow, the administration is on a high alert.
> 
> Section 144 has been imposed in 4 villages closer to Ambala airbase. Gathering of people on roofs and photography during landing has been strictly prohibited,” Munish Sehgal, DSP Traffic, Ambala said. Further informing about Ambala Cantt Ram Kumar, DSP Ambala Cantt said, “The Ambala Cantt area is a 'no-drone area' as it is a sensitive zone.
> 
> Also, no photography is allowed in the area. If anyone violates these orders, action will be taken against them.” The first batch of Rafale jets took off from France to join the Indian Air Force on July 27. The jets will join the Indian Air Force fleet at Ambala in Haryana on July 29.
> 
> https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...photography-prohibited/videoshow/77226968.cms
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288189846473682944



LoL

Worried about people queuing up to take selfies with Rafales.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*No match for Stealthy J20.

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288195926205648902*

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## HttpError

Rafale seems to be the weapon of Zeus. This will make the enemies of India bow before it and will change the landscape of this region forever.

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## HalfMoon

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *No match for Stealthy J20.
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288195926205648902*



Only Low IQ Indians can compare 4th Gen Rafale with 5th Gen J-20s

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## Figaro

INDIAPOSITIVE said:


> SOURCE: INDIA TODAY


This graphic really shows how brainless Indian media is ... if this is how the IAF thinks as well, then India might as well surrender to China right now. Between the IAF and PLAAF, I foresee an aerial slaughter the likes of which we have not seen since the Persian Gulf War.


_NOBODY_ said:


> I hope all Indians will believe this, their arrogance is a blessing for us.
> 
> 
> Wow, he can't be serious?


The Indian guy quoted is an idiot ... doesn't he know that the Russia Su-57 also has a "third generation engine" as well? By his own remark, then shouldn't the Su-57 also be a 3.5 generation fighter?

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Vergennes said:


> View attachment 655699
> 
> View attachment 655698



Any reason why the serial numbers are missing?


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## HalfMoon

HttpError said:


> Rafale seems to be the weapon of Zeus. This will make the enemies of India bow before it and will change the landscape of this region forever.




Rather I would say Rafale is more like Hera who is making all Indians bow to her.

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## HalfMoon

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Any reason why the serial numbers are missing?




That may due to the stealth features of Rafales that Indians were touting.

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## HalfMoon

These are the serial numbers of the five Rafales that are landing in India shortly.

PLLC-8WAZ-TRSH-6QC7-NSCY
PJ7F-GMAS-TRCU-4PUM-RUNH
PR33-WMAH-TJV3-JSNE-8KL6
PX8G-CUAT-T6Z4-6G4T-QUHU
P5JA-MUAV-TEW5-3A47-AJEZ


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## PakFactor

Mohsin Haqeim

@HaqeimM
·
Jul 27

Replying to
@warnesyworld
Sir wats your take about indian acquisition of Rafale and its Implications vis-a-vis China and Pakistan.


1











Alan Warnes

@warnesyworld
·
Jul 27

Well we know the PAF and the PLAAF exercise together regularly in the annual Shaheen exercises so I’m sure they have integrated some of their capabilities. If there a need. The PAF is undoubtedly tailoring it’s tactics to confront the Rafale/Meteor combo.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

HalfMoon said:


> These are the serial numbers of the five Rafales that are landing in India shortly.
> 
> PLLC-8WAZ-TRSH-6QC7-NSCY
> PJ7F-GMAS-TRCU-4PUM-RUNH
> PR33-WMAH-TJV3-JSNE-8KL6
> PX8G-CUAT-T6Z4-6G4T-QUHU
> P5JA-MUAV-TEW5-3A47-AJEZ



Must be equipped with the latest Windows software. No wonder they're so high-tech.

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## PakFactor

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Must be equipped with the latest Windows software. No wonder they're so high-tech.



Lol

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## HalfMoon

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Must be equipped with the latest Windows software. No wonder they're so high-tech.


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

If folks are killed on behalf of "cows", how much reverence Rafales should be generating...

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## Figaro

It is really funny how obsessed the Indians are with the Rafael ... it's as if they are treating it as some "Goddess" or precious gem. I have yet to see anyone in the US, Russia, or China treat their own stealth aircraft like this, let alone the Indians with an imported 4th gen French aircraft. But I guess if you spend 250 million dollars on each aircraft, this treatment makes sense

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## SQ8

Thats it! Every pigeon, monkey and cow for themselves!
Unless they want to be branded an ISI agent.

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## blain2

It's a good aircraft. They are proud of it just the same as we are proud of ours. Given that it is an extremely expensive asset, they probably don't want to take any chances (section 144 forbidding people from getting on the rooftops, besides gathering in numbers, is to probably avoid any untoward incident involving someone launching a MANPADS or so at the landing aircraft). As far as the photos go, they are already on the internet, why prevent the bicharay (poor souls) in the 4 villages only?

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## Vapour

blain2 said:


> It's a good aircraft. They are proud of it just the same as we are proud of ours. Given that it is an extremely expensive asset, they probably don't want to take any chances (section 144 forbidding people from getting on the rooftops, besides gathering in numbers, is to probably avoid any untoward incident involving someone launching a MANPADS or so at the landing aircraft). As far as the photos go, they are already on the internet, why prevent the bicharay (poor souls) in the 4 villages only?



Let's hope there are no 'accidents' before landing.

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## Trailer23

blain2 said:


> It's a good aircraft.


CORRECTION: Its a Great Aircraft - only until the IAF Crashes it.

Let me mark the calendar. Say..., February 2021.

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## polanski

IAF Rafale Fighters Started Ferry Flight To India: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/07/28/iaf-rafale-fighters-started-ferry-flight-to-india/


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## Armchair

When will they hold a show and tell function?


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## waqasmwi

Will Pakistan try to Track passing by Rafales en route to Indiafrom UAE?


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## CIA Mole

They afraid of someone shooting it down?

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## truthseeker2010

Will this be imposed everytime rafale will take off and land?

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## HalfMoon

truthseeker2010 said:


> Will this be imposed everytime rafale will take off and land?



Yes.


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## HalfMoon

CIA Mole said:


> They afraid of someone shooting it down?



Yes.

It is $250 Million a piece. Need to protect it.

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## Vortex

I’m sure they even switched off their air defences systems. Do not want self repeat the 27 feb.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

In India,

One Cow > 200m Muslims 

One Rafael > 99.9% of Indians

Therefore, One Rafael > One Cow

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## GamoAccu

Indian military is famous for crashing their jets, shooting down their own helicopter, destroying Russian leased submarines, and forgetting to close the hatch on a submarine while diving in water.

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## CIA Mole

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> In India,
> 
> One Cow > 200m Muslims
> 
> One Rafael > 99.9% of Indians
> 
> Therefore, One Rafael > One Cow




Indians will start worshiping Rafaels.

I expect more pujas to come.

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## SSG_Commando

CIA Mole said:


> Indians will start worshiping Rafaels.
> 
> I expect more pujas to come.


Rafael mataa ki jaaa!! 

If someone destroy ones Rafael I think their will be mass suicide and hearattacks in India

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## Figaro

CIA Mole said:


> They afraid of someone shooting it down?


After shooting down your own helicopter and killing 6 of your own service personnel, why wouldn't they be afraid? If a Rafael gets lost in an accident, that is 250 million dollars gone.

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## baqai

taking pictures not allowed? why? that's absurd?


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## I S I

Needed Rafales to defend India. 

Defending Rafales from its own people. 

Dilemma of India

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## Trango Towers

waqasmwi said:


> Will Pakistan try to Track passing by Rafales en route to Indiafrom UAE?


What will be great is if PAF meets the rafales at sea... just to say hi


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## 1648

SSG_Commando said:


> Rafael mataa ki jaaa!!
> 
> If someone destroy ones Rafael I think their will be mass suicide and hearattacks in India



I am more concerned with Muslims being lynched to death in the name of rafale-rakhshak if found near Rafales.

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## Lord Of Gondor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288404252516179969The radio call is between the INS Kolkata sailing in the Arabian Sea and the "Arrow Ldr"

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## Vanguard One

*Chief of Air Staff RKS Bhadauria will be at the strategically key Ambala air base to receive the Rafale jets, India's first major acquisition of fighter planes in over two decades.*






New Delhi:

The first five of a batch of French Rafale fighter jets will touch down at Haryana's Ambala shortly after covering a distance of nearly 7,000 km to join the Indian Air Force fleet. They have entered Indian airspace, according to officials.

The Rafale contingent established contact with Indian Navy warship INS Kolkata in the Western Arabian Sea soon after taking off from the United Arab Emirates. "Welcome to the Indian Ocean... May you touch the sky with glory," the Naval warship was heard telling a Rafale commander in an audio.

Chief of Air Staff RKS Bhadauria is at the Ambala air base to receive the Rafale jets, India's first major acquisition of fighter planes in over two decades. A Rs 59,000-crore deal was signed on September 23, 2016 for 36 Rafale jets from French aerospace major Dassault Aviation.

Security has been tightened near the airbase, located around 200 km from the border with Pakistan, and large gatherings have been banned in four villages nearby. There are also restrictions on people gathering on rooftops and any filming or photography during the landing. A local MLA has urged people to light candles this evening to welcome the jets.

The jets, piloted by IAF officers, took off from Merignac in southwest France and refueled midair on the way. Spectacular visuals posted by the Air Force yesterday showed the jets refueling from a French tanker at a height of 30,000 feet.

The jets made a stopover in Al Dhafra in the UAE, where France has an air base.

They are accompanied by two A330 Phoenix MRTT refueling planes from the French Air Force, one of which is carrying 70 ventilators, 100,000 test kits and a team of 10 health experts to aid in the fight against coronavirus.

Delivery officially started in October last year when the first Rafale jet was handed over to the IAF during a visit to France by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh. The planes stayed in France for training of the pilots and mechanics.

All the jets are to be delivered by 2022.

The planes are expected to boost India's air power massively amid tensions with China and Pakistan.

"Our air force pilots tell us that these are extremely swift, nimble, versatile and very deadly aircraft," said India's ambassador to France Jawed Ashraf, according to news agency AFP.

"This is going to add a great deal of strength to our airpower and defence preparedness but it is also a powerful symbol of our strategic partnership between France and India," he added.


The fleet, comprising three single seater and two twin seater aircraft, will be inducted into the IAF as part of its No. 17 Squadron, also known as the ''Golden Arrows'', and will be stationed at the Ambala air base, which has been upgraded for the purpose.

The Ambala air base has two squadrons of the Jaguar combat aircraft and one squadron of the MIG-21 Bison. The Mirage fighters that were used for India's air strike in Balakot in Pakistan last year after the Pulwama terror attack took off from there.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/raf...fs-golden-arrows-2270499?pfrom=home-topscroll


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## Trango Towers

Vanguard One said:


> *Chief of Air Staff RKS Bhadauria will be at the strategically key Ambala air base to receive the Rafale jets, India's first major acquisition of fighter planes in over two decades.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Delhi:
> 
> The first five of a batch of French Rafale fighter jets will touch down at Haryana's Ambala shortly after covering a distance of nearly 7,000 km to join the Indian Air Force fleet. They have entered Indian airspace, according to officials.
> 
> The Rafale contingent established contact with Indian Navy warship INS Kolkata in the Western Arabian Sea soon after taking off from the United Arab Emirates. "Welcome to the Indian Ocean... May you touch the sky with glory," the Naval warship was heard telling a Rafale commander in an audio.
> 
> Chief of Air Staff RKS Bhadauria is at the Ambala air base to receive the Rafale jets, India's first major acquisition of fighter planes in over two decades. A Rs 59,000-crore deal was signed on September 23, 2016 for 36 Rafale jets from French aerospace major Dassault Aviation.
> 
> Security has been tightened near the airbase, located around 200 km from the border with Pakistan, and large gatherings have been banned in four villages nearby. There are also restrictions on people gathering on rooftops and any filming or photography during the landing. A local MLA has urged people to light candles this evening to welcome the jets.
> 
> The jets, piloted by IAF officers, took off from Merignac in southwest France and refueled midair on the way. Spectacular visuals posted by the Air Force yesterday showed the jets refueling from a French tanker at a height of 30,000 feet.
> 
> The jets made a stopover in Al Dhafra in the UAE, where France has an air base.
> 
> They are accompanied by two A330 Phoenix MRTT refueling planes from the French Air Force, one of which is carrying 70 ventilators, 100,000 test kits and a team of 10 health experts to aid in the fight against coronavirus.
> 
> Delivery officially started in October last year when the first Rafale jet was handed over to the IAF during a visit to France by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh. The planes stayed in France for training of the pilots and mechanics.
> 
> All the jets are to be delivered by 2022.
> 
> The planes are expected to boost India's air power massively amid tensions with China and Pakistan.
> 
> "Our air force pilots tell us that these are extremely swift, nimble, versatile and very deadly aircraft," said India's ambassador to France Jawed Ashraf, according to news agency AFP.
> 
> "This is going to add a great deal of strength to our airpower and defence preparedness but it is also a powerful symbol of our strategic partnership between France and India," he added.
> 
> 
> The fleet, comprising three single seater and two twin seater aircraft, will be inducted into the IAF as part of its No. 17 Squadron, also known as the ''Golden Arrows'', and will be stationed at the Ambala air base, which has been upgraded for the purpose.
> 
> The Ambala air base has two squadrons of the Jaguar combat aircraft and one squadron of the MIG-21 Bison. The Mirage fighters that were used for India's air strike in Balakot in Pakistan last year after the Pulwama terror attack took off from there.
> 
> https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/raf...fs-golden-arrows-2270499?pfrom=home-topscroll


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## Lord Of Gondor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288425006209228800


----------



## Lord Of Gondor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288438627656069120


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## BON PLAN

Lord Of Gondor said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288425006209228800


FINALLY !!!!

The end of a long, long, too long story.

I'm sure IAF will love that bird as they loved Mirage 2000 before.

A great day for India. I'm proud.

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## Imran Khan

its a fighter jet damn not a space ship  indian police on loadspakers annoucing do not go to roof top for watching rafale . do not click pictures of rafale and do not let others go to roof do not make videos of rafale

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288425664350007296

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288418229644333056


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288414326399725568

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288396385767718913

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288410223305056257

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## Imran Khan



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## volatile

Such a drama queen

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## Max



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## Imran Khan



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## King Julien

These restrictions are because of covid or else people will organise Dhol to welcome Rafale


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## PakGuns

I S I said:


> Guinea pig?


that's disgrace for Guinea pig bro.. they are cute

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## Trango Towers

When is the 1st crash scheduled for?

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## Verve

Trango Towers said:


> When is the 1st crash scheduled for?



Soon after the first maintenance done by Indians themselves ..

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

Rafale is a game changer, Chinese J 20 does not even come close, says former air chief Dhanoa


With the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) concentrated and on the offensive on a barren Tibetan Plateau, the Indian Air Force with Rafale fighter as its spearhead weapon will decide the outcome of the battle in case the red flag goes up, says former Air Chief Marshal B. S Dhanoa. Five Rafale fighters will land at Ambala air base today from France for induction into IAF today .

Talking to Hindustan Times, Dhanoa, the chief architect of February 26, 2019 air strikes on Balakot, said that Rafale with its top of the line electronic warfare suite, Meteor beyond visual range missile and SCALP air to ground weapon with its terrain following capability outguns any threat that the Chinese Air Force produces. Painting a wartime scenario, former top gun said : “ If the IAF is successful in destruction of enemy air defences and suppression of enemy air defences, then the Chinese fighters out in the open at Hotan air base and at Gonggar air base at Lhasa airport are fair targets. Some 70 Chinese aircraft are without protection at Hotan and some 26 aircraft may be parked inside a tunnel which the PLA were building at Lhasa air base,” the former air chief said.

Also Read: In China’s troop movements in Ladakh’s depth areas, a hint about its real plan

While Air Chief Marshal (Retd) Dhanoa recognises the threat presented by Chinese J-20 fifth generation fighter, he is very confident that the IAF with its latest Rafale and Su-30 MKI will be able to counter the best the Chinese throw at India in the worst case scenario. “Chinese Air Threat is mainly from their Surface to Air Missile Systems.”

“ If Chinese equipment was so good, then why did the Pakistanis only use F-16 aircraft to attack Nangi Tekri brigade in Rajouri sector on February 27, 2019 with Chinese JF-17 merely giving air defence cover to Mirage 3/5 bombers. The Mirage 3/5 dropped the H 2/4 bombs from a safe distance with the JF 17 in a supportive role providing Air Defence to these aircraft! Why does Pakistan use Swedish early air warning platforms up north and keep Chinese AWACS in the south? Why is Pakistan mounting European radar (Selex Gallelio) and Turkish targeting pod on Chinese JF-17 ? The answer is quite evident,” the former Chief said.

However, the brilliant air tactician recognizes the Chinese threat in form of surface to air missile batteries and artillery guns, which the PLA has packed in occupied Aksai Chin. But he also makes it very clear that with no tree line cover available to the Chinese platforms, they would be sitting ducks if the air defence cover is blown over. “ The Rafale with its advanced terrain following weapons and level II of Digital Terrain Elevation Data available to the Indian pilot, the error probability of the weapon is reduced to mere 10 metres. As I have said in the past, Rafale is a game changer,” former Air Chief Dhanoa said.

While Dhanoa appreciates the enemy threat, his serving IAF officers make it very clear that the Chinese equipment is not only inferior to the US equipment but also the Russian equipment. “ Why does Chinese Air Force use Russian Su-30 and Su-35 fighters while facing the US threat in South China Sea? The fact is that the Chinese fighters are no match for the American equipment Majority of Chinese equipment is reverse engineering of Russian equipment and fighters have designs of either Su-27 or Su 30 platform. They are even powered by Russian AL 31 F (Su-30) and RD 33 (MiG-29) engines,” a serving air commander told Hindustan Times.


https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...hief-dhanoa/story-3UJINQ1r8cuGputdMeQpOJ.html


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## Windjammer

Ironically while praising Rafales, Indians are still dreaming of F-16s....or maybe having nightmares.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288373367880339456

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

Missile systems, cold-engine start make multi-role Rafales all the more deadly

The new Rafale fighters jets will significantly enhance the offensive capabilities of the Indian Air Force (IAF) and prove to be a game-changer with their advanced weaponry, defence experts have said. The jet is capable of carrying out a variety of missions — ground and sea attack, air defence and air superiority, reconnaissance and nuclear strike deterrence.

Specially tailored for the IAF, the Rafale jets have cold engine start capability to operate from high-altitude bases including Leh, radar warning receivers, flight data recorders with storage for 10 hours of data, infrared search and track systems, low-band jammers, Israeli helmet-mounted displays and towed decoys to ward off incoming missiles.

These Rafale jets will be armed with Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missiles, MICA multi-mission air-to-air missiles and Scalp deep-strike cruise missiles — weapons that will allow fighter pilots to attack air and ground targets from standoff ranges and fill a significant capability gap.

The Meteor’s no-escape zone is touted to be three times greater than that of current medium-range air-to-air missiles. The Meteor, with a range estimated to be well above 120 kilometres, outranges any other missile in aerial combat.

The Meteor is the next generation of BVR air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) designed to revolutionise air-to-air combat. The weapon has been developed by MBDA to combat common threats facing the UK, Germany, Italy, France, Spain and Sweden.

It is powered by a unique rocket-ramjet motor that gives it far more engine power for much longer than any other missile, said an official.

The Scalp is a deep-strike cruise missile known for having pinpoint terminal accuracy through its highly accurate seeker and target recognition system.

The twin-engine fighter jet’s ‘payload fraction’ or its maximum take-off weight vis-a-vis its overall empty weight is unmatched in aircraft of the same class. It can carry almost 10 tonnes of weapons and five tonnes of fuel.Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha (retd), a former IAF chief, said the active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar on the Rafale and its weapons package make it a formidable platform.

India is also looking at arming the Rafale fighter jets with an all-weather smart weapon of French origin that will allow combat pilots to engage ground targets from a standoff range of up to 60km.

The IAF is likely to initiate the purchase of HAMMER (Highly Agile Modular Munition Extended Range) using the emergency financial powers granted to the military by the government at a time of border tensions with China.

HAMMER is a precision-guided missile developed by French defence major Safran.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...more-deadly/story-ljTLNh5wnvgqkdklfbFhSP.html

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## King Julien

Sweets for PDF members on arrival of Rafale and tolerating MMRCA drama

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## pothead

GamoAccu said:


> Indian military is famous for crashing their jets, shooting down their own helicopter, destroying Russian leased submarines, and forgetting to close the hatch on a submarine while diving in water.



Want to know the identity of the country which recently got their airlines banned for being fake?
idiots were playing PUBG while the airline crashed...


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## Trango Towers

pothead said:


> Want to know the identity of the country which recently got their airlines banned for being fake?
> idiots were playing PUBG while the airline crashed...


And 320sq km lost to the chinese and still being raped

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## INDIAPOSITIVE

*‘Touch the sky with glory’: PM Narendra Modi welcomes Rafale *

*Prime Minister Narendra Modi has welcomed the landing of Rafale fighter jets in Ambala with a tweet in Sanskrit which refers to the obligation of protecting one’s nation being supreme.
“There is no greater blessing than protecting the nation, protecting the nation is a virtuous deed and protecting the nation is the best Yagna. There is nothing beyond this. Touch the sky with glory. Welcome,” 


 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288425006209228800*


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## pothead

Trango Towers said:


> And 320sq km lost to the chinese and still being raped



Lost?
Where did you get this info from?

Did Gobartimes announce it or what?
Or Xitler held a press conference? Can this guy even speak...I have never heard him do so ever.

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## Trango Towers

pothead said:


> Lost?
> Where did you get this info from?
> 
> Did Gobartimes announce it or what?
> Or Xitler held a press conference? Can this guy even speak...I have never heard him do so ever.


Google it. Even your commanders are admitting to huge amounts of lost land....but people like you ..the modi chanter are dancing on pdf

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*I have heard the Indians are JUBILANT today, good for them let them enjoy the moment. Nevertheless it might just be short lived!




*


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## Vikki

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/raf...fs-golden-arrows-2270499?pfrom=home-topscroll
Great news


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## 1648

Such stagings are prepared to report in the media that brainwashes earlier news, paints over people's memories and fill masses with a new passion (delusion). Galwan memories to be faded is the case in point. If I am not forgetting neanderthal modi did something with cancelling currency notes he last time failed to convince the raging reason of indyan masses after the pseudo-strike whose analysis goes "_Defence analysts in Pakistan said it was not possible for Indian forces to breach the heavily armed and fenced LoC border undetected, perform operations at multiple sites over several hours, and return without casualties and military resistance. According to one source, the Indian narrative matched a "fantastic movie script" created for public consumption"_

Malala was created, and media all over the world was filled when American diplomats were being killed (yes killed) in Muslim countries after the protests against blasphemy in Muslim World.

All of a sudden the perception of people is shaped in another direction.

But indya does it so badly. Nothing that these guys do is ever professional as far as the standards of the world are concerned.

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## Riz

Welcome Rafale.... Good by SU-30Mki aka mini AWACS... Be ready Crane driver

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## baqai

beautiful bird but did you guys noticed in the video when it was landing it had such high AOA? haven't seen any aircraft land with nose so much high


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## 1648

PakGuns said:


> that's disgrace for Guinea pig bro.. they are cute



Might reduce it to pig proper.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*A near miss before arriving in India!*

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## 1648

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *A near miss before arriving in India!*



'India who?' says Iran.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288413417959825408

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## PaklovesTurkiye

Great.

For knowledge of Indians, Rafales are also liked by us

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## SABRE

Congrats, India.


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## Zarvan

If China is smart than this move by Indian Navy even though it's a symbolic action should work as an eye opener for China. China's has two corridors where it's energy comes from one this one and the other one in Gulf. Both are in consistent danger from getting blocked by Anti China forces. Therefore to keep its biggest rival in the region at bay China should help Pakistan build a monstrous Navy. With way more Frigates and Destroyers and Frigates becoming part of Pakistan Navy.

@Rafi @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah @Path-Finder @Arsalan

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## waz

Vikki said:


> https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/raf...fs-golden-arrows-2270499?pfrom=home-topscroll
> Great news



At 1.40, that was cool to see the IN saying hello the Rafale formation coming in.

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## Trailer23

waz said:


> At 1.40, that was cool to see the IN saying hello the Rafale formation coming in.


Happy Crashing(s).

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## waz

Trailer23 said:


> Happy Crashing(s).



Nothing yet. I'm sure the Mirage record is pretty good. The jets that have crashed have been Russian.

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## baqai

that's a beautiful aircraft, all the best guys, don't crash this beauty i won't be 100% happy on the news

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## HalfMoon

waz said:


> Nothing yet. I'm sure the Mirage record is pretty good. The jets that have crashed have been Russian.



Its not the jets but the pilots.


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## HalfMoon

baqai said:


> that's a beautiful aircraft, all the best guys, don't crash this beauty i won't be 100% happy on the news



Be assured. Indians will surely disappoint you by crashing a couple of Rafales in the next few months.

They have very good experience in crashing.



*Air Force's new C-130 J aircraft crashes near Gwalior, five killed*

*



*


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## Jobless Jack

I am sure these 5 planes will be a game changer at the galwan front. Hail Chaddi !

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## HalfMoon

Here is the video

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## The Eagle

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *A near miss before arriving in India!*



Al Dhafra?


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*Former IAF chief B S Dhanoa, the architect of Indian humiliation last year comes out with all praise for the mighty Rafale as the sole saviour of Bharat Mata in the present situation. He stops short in nearly declaring the Rafale, an important Indian deity .I am amazed and bemused how this Sardarji made it right to the top to lead a big airforce. Below are some extracts of his interview with HT.*
" The Rafale with its top of the line electronic warfare suite, Meteor beyond visual range missile and SCALP air to ground weapon with its terrain following capability outguns any threat that the Chinese Air Force produces. Painting a wartime scenario, former top gun said : “ If the IAF is successful in destruction of enemy air defences and suppression of enemy air defences, then the Chinese fighters out in the open at Hotan air base and at Gonggar air base at Lhasa airport are fair targets. Some 70 Chinese aircraft are without protection at Hotan and some 26 aircraft may be parked inside a tunnel which the PLA were building at Lhasa air base,” the former air chief said."
While Air Chief Marshal (Retd) Dhanoa recognises the threat presented by Chinese J-20 fifth generation fighter, he is very confident that the IAF with its latest Rafale and Su-30 MKI will be able to counter the best the Chinese throw at India.
“ If Chinese equipment was so good, then why did the Pakistanis only use F-16 aircraft to attack Nangi Tekri brigade in Rajouri sector on February 27, 2019 with Chinese JF-17 merely giving air defence cover to Mirage 3/5 bombers. The Mirage 3/5 dropped the H 2/4 bombs from a safe distance with the JF 17 in a supportive role providing Air Defence to these aircraft! Why does Pakistan use Swedish early air warning platforms up north and keep Chinese AWACS in the south? Why is Pakistan mounting European radar (Selex Gallelio) and Turkish targeting pod on Chinese JF-17 ? The answer is quite evident,” the former Chief said.
However, the brilliant air tactician recognizes the Chinese threat in form of surface to air missile batteries and artillery guns, which the PLA has packed in occupied Aksai Chin. But he also makes it very clear that with no tree line cover available to the Chinese platforms, they would be sitting ducks if the air defence cover is blown over. “ The Rafale with its advanced terrain following weapons and level II of Digital Terrain Elevation Data available to the Indian pilot, the error probability of the weapon is reduced to mere 10 metres. As I have said in the past, Rafale is a game changer,” former Air Chief Dhanoa said.
While Dhanoa appreciates the enemy threat, his serving IAF officers make it very clear that the Chinese equipment is not only inferior to the US equipment but also the Russian equipment. “ Why does Chinese Air Force use Russian Su-30 and Su-35 fighters while facing the US threat in South China Sea? The fact is that the Chinese fighters are no match for the American equipment Majority of Chinese equipment is reverse engineering of Russian equipment and fighters have designs of either Su-27 or Su 30 platform. They are even powered by Russian AL 31 F (Su-30) and RD 33 (MiG-29) engines,” a serving air commander told Hindustan Times.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...hief-dhanoa/story-3UJINQ1r8cuGputdMeQpOJ.html

*Mr B. S Dhanoa has out rightly downgraded the Chinese hardware, such complacency is not a hall mark of a professional. He should be lucky PAF spared his modesty last year, otherwise he would have been in EXILE by now. IAF with this over confident mindset might end up being decimated, if the PAF and PLAAF duo intend to show some force. Both have been practicing hard for the D DAY for some time ,in the neighbourhoods of Ladakh (Shaheen exercises). *

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Rafi

Zarvan said:


> If China is smart than this move by Indian Navy even though it's a symbolic action should work as an eye opener for China. China's has two corridors where it's energy comes from one this one and the other one in Gulf. Both are in consistent danger from getting blocked by Anti China forces. Therefore to keep its biggest rival in the region at bay China should help Pakistan build a monstrous Navy. With way more Frigates and Destroyers and Frigates becoming part of Pakistan Navy.
> 
> @Rafi @Tipu7 @Sulman Badshah @Path-Finder @Arsalan



Patience my friend, watch this space.

And believe me the indians don't want to mess with the PLAN.

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## Shantanu_Left

waz said:


> Nothing yet. I'm sure the Mirage record is pretty good. The jets that have crashed have been Russian.



I love the factual accuracy of this comment. Bravo!

Unlike quite a few ill-informed Pakistani posters here, you don't get carried away by emotion. 

Exactly my words.

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## Rafi

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Former IAF chief B S Dhanoa, the architect of Indian humiliation last year comes out with all praise for the mighty Rafale as the sole saviour of Bharat Mata in the present situation. He stops short in nearly calling the Rafale, the status of a mythical Indian deity .I am amazed and bemused how this Sardarji made it right to the top to lead a big airforce. Below are some extracts of his interview with HT.*
> " The Rafale with its top of the line electronic warfare suite, Meteor beyond visual range missile and SCALP air to ground weapon with its terrain following capability outguns any threat that the Chinese Air Force produces. Painting a wartime scenario, former top gun said : “ If the IAF is successful in destruction of enemy air defences and suppression of enemy air defences, then the Chinese fighters out in the open at Hotan air base and at Gonggar air base at Lhasa airport are fair targets. Some 70 Chinese aircraft are without protection at Hotan and some 26 aircraft may be parked inside a tunnel which the PLA were building at Lhasa air base,” the former air chief said."
> While Air Chief Marshal (Retd) Dhanoa recognises the threat presented by Chinese J-20 fifth generation fighter, he is very confident that the IAF with its latest Rafale and Su-30 MKI will be able to counter the best the Chinese throw at India.
> “ If Chinese equipment was so good, then why did the Pakistanis only use F-16 aircraft to attack Nangi Tekri brigade in Rajouri sector on February 27, 2019 with Chinese JF-17 merely giving air defence cover to Mirage 3/5 bombers. The Mirage 3/5 dropped the H 2/4 bombs from a safe distance with the JF 17 in a supportive role providing Air Defence to these aircraft! Why does Pakistan use Swedish early air warning platforms up north and keep Chinese AWACS in the south? Why is Pakistan mounting European radar (Selex Gallelio) and Turkish targeting pod on Chinese JF-17 ? The answer is quite evident,” the former Chief said.
> However, the brilliant air tactician recognizes the Chinese threat in form of surface to air missile batteries and artillery guns, which the PLA has packed in occupied Aksai Chin. But he also makes it very clear that with no tree line cover available to the Chinese platforms, they would be sitting ducks if the air defence cover is blown over. “ The Rafale with its advanced terrain following weapons and level II of Digital Terrain Elevation Data available to the Indian pilot, the error probability of the weapon is reduced to mere 10 metres. As I have said in the past, Rafale is a game changer,” former Air Chief Dhanoa said.
> While Dhanoa appreciates the enemy threat, his serving IAF officers make it very clear that the Chinese equipment is not only inferior to the US equipment but also the Russian equipment. “ Why does Chinese Air Force use Russian Su-30 and Su-35 fighters while facing the US threat in South China Sea? The fact is that the Chinese fighters are no match for the American equipment Majority of Chinese equipment is reverse engineering of Russian equipment and fighters have designs of either Su-27 or Su 30 platform. They are even powered by Russian AL 31 F (Su-30) and RD 33 (MiG-29) engines,” a serving air commander told Hindustan Times.
> 
> https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...hief-dhanoa/story-3UJINQ1r8cuGputdMeQpOJ.html
> 
> *Mr B S (Bull Shit) Dhanoa has out rightly downgraded the Chinese hardware, such complacency is not a hall mark of a professional. He should be lucky PAF spared his modesty last year, otherwise he would have been in EXILE by now. IAF with this over confident mindset might end up being decimated, if the PAF and PLAAF duo intend to show some force. Both have been practicing hard for this BATTLE for some time in the neighbourhoods of Ladakh (Shaheen exercises). *



B S Diarrhoea is simply a fcking retard, as a professional if I was going up against the smallest weakest army in the world I would not disregard their capabilities, and this retard is talking about China.

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## fallstuff

I am beginning to think Rafale is powered by tesseract !


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## PakFactor

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Former IAF chief B S Dhanoa, the architect of Indian humiliation last year comes out with all praise for the mighty Rafale as the sole saviour of Bharat Mata in the present situation. He stops short in nearly calling the Rafale, the status of a mythical Indian deity .I am amazed and bemused how this Sardarji made it right to the top to lead a big airforce. Below are some extracts of his interview with HT.*
> " The Rafale with its top of the line electronic warfare suite, Meteor beyond visual range missile and SCALP air to ground weapon with its terrain following capability outguns any threat that the Chinese Air Force produces. Painting a wartime scenario, former top gun said : “ If the IAF is successful in destruction of enemy air defences and suppression of enemy air defences, then the Chinese fighters out in the open at Hotan air base and at Gonggar air base at Lhasa airport are fair targets. Some 70 Chinese aircraft are without protection at Hotan and some 26 aircraft may be parked inside a tunnel which the PLA were building at Lhasa air base,” the former air chief said."
> While Air Chief Marshal (Retd) Dhanoa recognises the threat presented by Chinese J-20 fifth generation fighter, he is very confident that the IAF with its latest Rafale and Su-30 MKI will be able to counter the best the Chinese throw at India.
> “ If Chinese equipment was so good, then why did the Pakistanis only use F-16 aircraft to attack Nangi Tekri brigade in Rajouri sector on February 27, 2019 with Chinese JF-17 merely giving air defence cover to Mirage 3/5 bombers. The Mirage 3/5 dropped the H 2/4 bombs from a safe distance with the JF 17 in a supportive role providing Air Defence to these aircraft! Why does Pakistan use Swedish early air warning platforms up north and keep Chinese AWACS in the south? Why is Pakistan mounting European radar (Selex Gallelio) and Turkish targeting pod on Chinese JF-17 ? The answer is quite evident,” the former Chief said.
> However, the brilliant air tactician recognizes the Chinese threat in form of surface to air missile batteries and artillery guns, which the PLA has packed in occupied Aksai Chin. But he also makes it very clear that with no tree line cover available to the Chinese platforms, they would be sitting ducks if the air defence cover is blown over. “ The Rafale with its advanced terrain following weapons and level II of Digital Terrain Elevation Data available to the Indian pilot, the error probability of the weapon is reduced to mere 10 metres. As I have said in the past, Rafale is a game changer,” former Air Chief Dhanoa said.
> While Dhanoa appreciates the enemy threat, his serving IAF officers make it very clear that the Chinese equipment is not only inferior to the US equipment but also the Russian equipment. “ Why does Chinese Air Force use Russian Su-30 and Su-35 fighters while facing the US threat in South China Sea? The fact is that the Chinese fighters are no match for the American equipment Majority of Chinese equipment is reverse engineering of Russian equipment and fighters have designs of either Su-27 or Su 30 platform. They are even powered by Russian AL 31 F (Su-30) and RD 33 (MiG-29) engines,” a serving air commander told Hindustan Times.
> 
> https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...hief-dhanoa/story-3UJINQ1r8cuGputdMeQpOJ.html
> 
> *Mr B S (Bull Shit) Dhanoa has out rightly downgraded the Chinese hardware, such complacency is not a hall mark of a professional. He should be lucky PAF spared his modesty last year, otherwise he would have been in EXILE by now. IAF with this over confident mindset might end up being decimated, if the PAF and PLAAF duo intend to show some force. Both have been practicing hard for this BATTLE for some time in the neighbourhoods of Ladakh (Shaheen exercises). *



Lol wow. To think this was the caliber of IAF officers. Truly a sad state of affairs for Indians.

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## TOPGUN

Congrats to india on your new baby !


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## alphapak

How only 36 Rafale will be a game changer against China? 
China makes this many J10's per year.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

alphapak said:


> China makes this many J10's per year.


*You mean J20s!*

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## PakFactor

alphapak said:


> How only 36 Rafale will be a game changer against China?
> China makes this many J10's per year.



Don’t insult IAF Rafale’s they equipped with special Vedic Powered systems.

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## kaevmaan



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## graphican

What B S Dhanoa (funny named guy) is saying is that - the game was won by the other side, and now Rafale will be the "game-changer" and will turn the tide in the favour of India. 

Weather Rafale would change the game or not, B S Dhanoa (funny named guy - lol) is admitting that the game was in the favour of Pakistan before.

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## alphapak

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *You mean J20s!*



Im talking 4th Gen because Rafale are 4th gen, China also makes J20.

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## truthseeker2010

The Eagle said:


> Al Dhafra?



Hell yes, their naval exercises "misfired" few shots for nato/indian guests.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PakFactor said:


> Don’t insult IAF Rafale’s they equipped with special Vedic Powered systems.


*Even their DM is singing the same chorus.

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288481392477851648*

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## The Eagle

truthseeker2010 said:


> Hell yes, their naval exercises "misfired" few shots for nato/indian guests.



Oh yeah, they were burning and shooting at a dummy target which was far & away though. Why IAF attracts the situation called friendly fire every-time.

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## truthseeker2010

The Eagle said:


> Oh yeah, they were burning and shooting at a dummy target which was far & away though. Why IAF attracts the situation called friendly fire every-time.



The indian media has become hostile after chabahar fiasco.

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## Leishangthem

31 vintage like rafale against an endless hoard of much superior j-20B which china can mass produce on whim... yet ,it should be China that ought to be scared.... Logic died .

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## -=virus=-

HalfMoon said:


> *Air Force's new C-130 J aircraft crashes near Gwalior, five killed*


what pleasure are you deriving in people dying ?


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## ayodhyapati

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Former IAF chief B S Dhanoa, the architect of Indian humiliation last year comes out with all praise for the mighty Rafale as the sole saviour of Bharat Mata in the present situation. He stops short in nearly calling the Rafale, the status of a mythical Indian deity .I am amazed and bemused how this Sardarji made it right to the top to lead a big airforce. Below are some extracts of his interview with HT.*
> " The Rafale with its top of the line electronic warfare suite, Meteor beyond visual range missile and SCALP air to ground weapon with its terrain following capability outguns any threat that the Chinese Air Force produces. Painting a wartime scenario, former top gun said : “ If the IAF is successful in destruction of enemy air defences and suppression of enemy air defences, then the Chinese fighters out in the open at Hotan air base and at Gonggar air base at Lhasa airport are fair targets. Some 70 Chinese aircraft are without protection at Hotan and some 26 aircraft may be parked inside a tunnel which the PLA were building at Lhasa air base,” the former air chief said."
> While Air Chief Marshal (Retd) Dhanoa recognises the threat presented by Chinese J-20 fifth generation fighter, he is very confident that the IAF with its latest Rafale and Su-30 MKI will be able to counter the best the Chinese throw at India.
> “ If Chinese equipment was so good, then why did the Pakistanis only use F-16 aircraft to attack Nangi Tekri brigade in Rajouri sector on February 27, 2019 with Chinese JF-17 merely giving air defence cover to Mirage 3/5 bombers. The Mirage 3/5 dropped the H 2/4 bombs from a safe distance with the JF 17 in a supportive role providing Air Defence to these aircraft! Why does Pakistan use Swedish early air warning platforms up north and keep Chinese AWACS in the south? Why is Pakistan mounting European radar (Selex Gallelio) and Turkish targeting pod on Chinese JF-17 ? The answer is quite evident,” the former Chief said.
> However, the brilliant air tactician recognizes the Chinese threat in form of surface to air missile batteries and artillery guns, which the PLA has packed in occupied Aksai Chin. But he also makes it very clear that with no tree line cover available to the Chinese platforms, they would be sitting ducks if the air defence cover is blown over. “ The Rafale with its advanced terrain following weapons and level II of Digital Terrain Elevation Data available to the Indian pilot, the error probability of the weapon is reduced to mere 10 metres. As I have said in the past, Rafale is a game changer,” former Air Chief Dhanoa said.
> While Dhanoa appreciates the enemy threat, his serving IAF officers make it very clear that the Chinese equipment is not only inferior to the US equipment but also the Russian equipment. “ Why does Chinese Air Force use Russian Su-30 and Su-35 fighters while facing the US threat in South China Sea? The fact is that the Chinese fighters are no match for the American equipment Majority of Chinese equipment is reverse engineering of Russian equipment and fighters have designs of either Su-27 or Su 30 platform. They are even powered by Russian AL 31 F (Su-30) and RD 33 (MiG-29) engines,” a serving air commander told Hindustan Times.
> 
> https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...hief-dhanoa/story-3UJINQ1r8cuGputdMeQpOJ.html
> 
> *Mr B S (Bull Shit) Dhanoa has out rightly downgraded the Chinese hardware, such complacency is not a hall mark of a professional. He should be lucky PAF spared his modesty last year, otherwise he would have been in EXILE by now. IAF with this over confident mindset might end up being decimated, if the PAF and PLAAF duo intend to show some force. Both have been practicing hard for this BATTLE for some time in the neighbourhoods of Ladakh (Shaheen exercises). *



indian defence experts are not experts they are idiots , rafaels are nothing if we consider it against china .but rafaels will be used against pakistan as i think . against pakistan thse fighters are formidable assets .

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## -=virus=-

kaevmaan said:


>


That looks amazing, at around the :40 mark with the MKIs

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## duhastmish

Great news. But I hope iaf is not over carried away by this.
This news is basically for public consumption so that people don't question the lost land and soldiers.


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## batmannow

*China just recives S400 batteries *
That's the father waiting for RAFAELs and to make sure that another abhinandan of IAF shot down and captured by PLA?
and BTW they won't be returning him back!
and no dam tea will be served for this time!

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## Imran Khan

Rafale ne khana khaya ?
Rafale washroom gya?
Rafale ne dakar li ?
Rafale ne potty ki?
Rafale ne neend ki?
Rafale ne makeup kiya?

Saly or threads kholo

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## Crixus

One of the pilots who flew was my senior in school and Indian media is disclosing their names ranks and the places from where theu belongs ....showing their faces

Normal countried hide the faces of pilots bit here they are making everything public


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## LKJ86

batmannow said:


> That's the father waiting for RAFAELs and to make sure that another abhinandan of IAF shot down and captured by PLA?
> and BTW they won't be giving and dam tea for this time


Why do you guys take S-400 so seriously?
China buys S-400 just to upgrade the old S-300.

S-400 is just like Su-35 to China.

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## fallstuff

Beautiful birds !

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## -=virus=-

duhastmish said:


> Great news. But I hope iaf is not over carried away by this.
> This news is basically for public consumption so that people don't question the lost land and soldiers.


Lost land is debatable for it is virtually impossible for anyone outside of the power structure with access to the details and sat imagery to really know. Active duty guys will obviously not speak on it.

A whole new industry of analysts has popped up with the maps and fingers and Chinese here, Indian there.. nobody really knows.

I would say it is possible we lost land but equally possible we did not.

Give the Rafales a year or 2 before expecting them to be deployed on combat duty, MKIs and the rest are good enough for CAP or any offensive or defensive missions till then. 

We must master it before wielding it in a field of battle.. China, Pak and India.. all concerned parties understand this well so it is obviously not a threat to anyone just yet.


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## batmannow

*Russian S400 delivery completed to China before RAFAEL touch down in India, yestedays news!! 

LET'S SEE, WHEN IAF has the ballz to fly these Rafaels near PLAs positions they ill ready to shot these expensive birds!!! 
India are you ready, how is the Josh??? Lolzzzzz*

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## N.Siddiqui

The glibness of Modi and the gullible-ness of Indians are amazing.

Anil Ambani and Mukesh Ambani must be creating all the hoopla through their owned Godi media...and check how many thousand crores Anil Ambani has made as commission.


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## Fireurimagination

Forget 5 even 36 won't help much, we need the follow-up order of 44. Also help from Dassault for speedy development of AMCA.


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## Path-Finder

why does he feel the need to speak and keep relevant? does more harm everytime it opens its mouth!

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## batmannow

LKJ86 said:


> Why do you guys take S-400 so seriously?
> China buys S-400 just to upgrade the old S-300.
> 
> S-400 is just like Su-35 to China.


Yeah! But it's out the wind from Indians filthy lungs!
I gss, whole india never saw that news comming yesteday!

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## Pakistan Space Agency

ayodhyapati said:


> ... rafaels will be used against pakistan as i think . against pakistan thse fighters are formidable assets .



Says who?

Where was the fleet of 230+ Su-30 MKIs (mini awacs) when Operation Swift Retort was launched in broad dalylight against India?

I heard they bingoed out. Is that true?


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## ayodhyapati

batmannow said:


> *China just recives S400 batteries *
> That's the father waiting for RAFAELs and to make sure that another abhinandan of IAF shot down and captured by PLA?
> and BTW they won't be returning him back!
> and no dam tea will be served for this time!





LKJ86 said:


> Why do you guys take S-400 so seriously?
> China buys S-400 just to upgrade the old S-300.
> 
> S-400 is just like Su-35 to China.



russia stopped deal of s400 because of old chinese habit of spying everywhere .


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## ayodhyapati

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Says who?
> 
> Where was the fleet of 230+ Su-30 MKIs (mini awacs) when Operation Swift Retort was launched in broad dalylight against India?
> 
> I heard they bingoed out. Is that true?



what can you do with airforce ? bombing here and there ? you can not get a piece of land for that you need army , but your army is not as capable as your pilots .


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## 1648

After Rafale, F-22 will be the game changer.

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## HalfMoon

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Former IAF chief B S Dhanoa, the architect of Indian humiliation last year comes out with all praise for the mighty Rafale as the sole saviour of Bharat Mata in the present situation. He stops short in nearly declaring the Rafale, an important Indian deity .I am amazed and bemused how this Sardarji made it right to the top to lead a big airforce. Below are some extracts of his interview with HT.*
> " The Rafale with its top of the line electronic warfare suite, Meteor beyond visual range missile and SCALP air to ground weapon with its terrain following capability outguns any threat that the Chinese Air Force produces. Painting a wartime scenario, former top gun said : “ If the IAF is successful in destruction of enemy air defences and suppression of enemy air defences, then the Chinese fighters out in the open at Hotan air base and at Gonggar air base at Lhasa airport are fair targets. Some 70 Chinese aircraft are without protection at Hotan and some 26 aircraft may be parked inside a tunnel which the PLA were building at Lhasa air base,” the former air chief said."
> While Air Chief Marshal (Retd) Dhanoa recognises the threat presented by Chinese J-20 fifth generation fighter, he is very confident that the IAF with its latest Rafale and Su-30 MKI will be able to counter the best the Chinese throw at India.
> “ If Chinese equipment was so good, then why did the Pakistanis only use F-16 aircraft to attack Nangi Tekri brigade in Rajouri sector on February 27, 2019 with Chinese JF-17 merely giving air defence cover to Mirage 3/5 bombers. The Mirage 3/5 dropped the H 2/4 bombs from a safe distance with the JF 17 in a supportive role providing Air Defence to these aircraft! Why does Pakistan use Swedish early air warning platforms up north and keep Chinese AWACS in the south? Why is Pakistan mounting European radar (Selex Gallelio) and Turkish targeting pod on Chinese JF-17 ? The answer is quite evident,” the former Chief said.
> However, the brilliant air tactician recognizes the Chinese threat in form of surface to air missile batteries and artillery guns, which the PLA has packed in occupied Aksai Chin. But he also makes it very clear that with no tree line cover available to the Chinese platforms, they would be sitting ducks if the air defence cover is blown over. “ The Rafale with its advanced terrain following weapons and level II of Digital Terrain Elevation Data available to the Indian pilot, the error probability of the weapon is reduced to mere 10 metres. As I have said in the past, Rafale is a game changer,” former Air Chief Dhanoa said.
> While Dhanoa appreciates the enemy threat, his serving IAF officers make it very clear that the Chinese equipment is not only inferior to the US equipment but also the Russian equipment. “ Why does Chinese Air Force use Russian Su-30 and Su-35 fighters while facing the US threat in South China Sea? The fact is that the Chinese fighters are no match for the American equipment Majority of Chinese equipment is reverse engineering of Russian equipment and fighters have designs of either Su-27 or Su 30 platform. They are even powered by Russian AL 31 F (Su-30) and RD 33 (MiG-29) engines,” a serving air commander told Hindustan Times.
> 
> https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...hief-dhanoa/story-3UJINQ1r8cuGputdMeQpOJ.html
> 
> *Mr B S (Bull Shit) Dhanoa has out rightly downgraded the Chinese hardware, such complacency is not a hall mark of a professional. He should be lucky PAF spared his modesty last year, otherwise he would have been in EXILE by now. IAF with this over confident mindset might end up being decimated, if the PAF and PLAAF duo intend to show some force. Both have been practicing hard for this BATTLE for some time in the neighbourhoods of Ladakh (Shaheen exercises). *




His name is BS. 

Enough said.

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## HalfMoon

-=virus=- said:


> what pleasure are you deriving in people dying ?



I have sympathies for their lives but not their skill. You should try to differentiate things in life.


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## duhastmish

-=virus=- said:


> Lost land is debatable for it is virtually impossible for anyone outside of the power structure with access to the details and sat imagery to really know. Active duty guys will obviously not speak on it.
> 
> A whole new industry of analysts has popped up with the maps and fingers and Chinese here, Indian there.. nobody really knows.
> 
> I would say it is possible we lost land but equally possible we did not.
> 
> Give the Rafales a year or 2 before expecting them to be deployed on combat duty, MKIs and the rest are good enough for CAP or any offensive or defensive missions till then.
> 
> We must master it before wielding it in a field of battle.. China, Pak and India.. all concerned parties understand this well so it is obviously not a threat to anyone just yet.


We lack in training. Even though when we look around and see poverty but because we have bigger fear of defence because of region we live in. We buy the most expensive hardware available. 
We must train regeroualy. The sarkari way of dealing things is what pushes us back. 

I hope we lower the numbers of crashes. MAY our jets fly high WHILE soldiers keep us safe and proud.

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## Hephaestus

BON PLAN said:


> FINALLY !!!!
> 
> The end of a long, long, too long story.
> 
> I'm sure IAF will love that bird as they loved Mirage 2000 before.
> 
> A great day for India. I'm proud.


Je Suis Ravi.

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## Crixus

Scam no Scam it will add a lot of potential in Indian air force like Mirages , so a good addition in armed forces

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## ayodhyapati

Crixus said:


> Scam no Scam it will add a lot of potential in Indian air force like Mirages , so a good addition in armed forces


yes .


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## I S I

His name starts with BS. What do you expect. Lmao

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## Death Professor

wonder how much truth is in this snapshot? I haven't read both the deals side by side, but if any informed indian would like to present the benefits of the newer deal compared to the older one in a summarized form, would be greatly appreciated.

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## Crixus

Just for you he is comparing the price of 2005 with 2016. Price of just air craft with aircraft + weapon package.

Every one knows there is no TOT in real world 



Death Professor said:


> wonder how much truth is in this snapshot? I haven't read both the deals side by side, but if any informed indian would like to present the benefits of the newer deal compared to the older one in a summarized form, would be greatly appreciated.


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## Crixus

As an Indian I can say if we believe in any western country then its French .... long live our cooperation and we always remain on same side

Hopefully they will go for 4-5 more squadrons of rafales ... plus additional scopene submarines in case France offers Baracuda then go for Baraccuda .

Training between French Foreign Legion and SFF .....


BON PLAN said:


> FINALLY !!!!
> 
> The end of a long, long, too long story.
> 
> I'm sure IAF will love that bird as they loved Mirage 2000 before.
> 
> A great day for India. I'm proud.

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## baqai

Seriously how did he managed to score the position of COAS? i have heard good things about their current Chief, someone we should not take lightly and keep a keen eye on, this doofus is just trying to be relevant most probably to score a BJP seat

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## baqai

rafael ku cow urine sai nehla kar pure kab kar rahay hain bhai?


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## batmannow

ayodhyapati said:


> russia stopped deal of s400 because of old chinese habit of spying everywhere .


Before commenting funny, watch the dam video, Russia has delivered Tha S400 Jst a day back!
So don't try your godi media shyt here!
Russia indias greatest friend denying india mig29s and su30s while giving China S400 says it all!
Why don't you guys try to fly it near PLA positions to chcek what really they got, if they shot Rafael tht means they hve the S400s if not you can keep dancing!!!!!


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## N.Siddiqui

*Rafale is a game changer-Anil Ambani...*

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## ziaulislam

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Former IAF chief B S Dhanoa, the architect of Indian humiliation last year comes out with all praise for the mighty Rafale as the sole saviour of Bharat Mata in the present situation. He stops short in nearly declaring the Rafale, an important Indian deity .I am amazed and bemused how this Sardarji made it right to the top to lead a big airforce. Below are some extracts of his interview with HT.*
> " The Rafale with its top of the line electronic warfare suite, Meteor beyond visual range missile and SCALP air to ground weapon with its terrain following capability outguns any threat that the Chinese Air Force produces. Painting a wartime scenario, former top gun said : “ If the IAF is successful in destruction of enemy air defences and suppression of enemy air defences, then the Chinese fighters out in the open at Hotan air base and at Gonggar air base at Lhasa airport are fair targets. Some 70 Chinese aircraft are without protection at Hotan and some 26 aircraft may be parked inside a tunnel which the PLA were building at Lhasa air base,” the former air chief said."
> While Air Chief Marshal (Retd) Dhanoa recognises the threat presented by Chinese J-20 fifth generation fighter, he is very confident that the IAF with its latest Rafale and Su-30 MKI will be able to counter the best the Chinese throw at India.
> “ If Chinese equipment was so good, then why did the Pakistanis only use F-16 aircraft to attack Nangi Tekri brigade in Rajouri sector on February 27, 2019 with Chinese JF-17 merely giving air defence cover to Mirage 3/5 bombers. The Mirage 3/5 dropped the H 2/4 bombs from a safe distance with the JF 17 in a supportive role providing Air Defence to these aircraft! Why does Pakistan use Swedish early air warning platforms up north and keep Chinese AWACS in the south? Why is Pakistan mounting European radar (Selex Gallelio) and Turkish targeting pod on Chinese JF-17 ? The answer is quite evident,” the former Chief said.
> However, the brilliant air tactician recognizes the Chinese threat in form of surface to air missile batteries and artillery guns, which the PLA has packed in occupied Aksai Chin. But he also makes it very clear that with no tree line cover available to the Chinese platforms, they would be sitting ducks if the air defence cover is blown over. “ The Rafale with its advanced terrain following weapons and level II of Digital Terrain Elevation Data available to the Indian pilot, the error probability of the weapon is reduced to mere 10 metres. As I have said in the past, Rafale is a game changer,” former Air Chief Dhanoa said.
> While Dhanoa appreciates the enemy threat, his serving IAF officers make it very clear that the Chinese equipment is not only inferior to the US equipment but also the Russian equipment. “ Why does Chinese Air Force use Russian Su-30 and Su-35 fighters while facing the US threat in South China Sea? The fact is that the Chinese fighters are no match for the American equipment Majority of Chinese equipment is reverse engineering of Russian equipment and fighters have designs of either Su-27 or Su 30 platform. They are even powered by Russian AL 31 F (Su-30) and RD 33 (MiG-29) engines,” a serving air commander told Hindustan Times.
> 
> https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...hief-dhanoa/story-3UJINQ1r8cuGputdMeQpOJ.html
> 
> *Mr B. S Dhanoa has out rightly downgraded the Chinese hardware, such complacency is not a hall mark of a professional. He should be lucky PAF spared his modesty last year, otherwise he would have been in EXILE by now. IAF with this over confident mindset might end up being decimated, if the PAF and PLAAF duo intend to show some force. Both have been practicing hard for the D DAY for some time ,in the neighbourhoods of Ladakh (Shaheen exercises). *


Another BS by Mr. BS

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## ziaulislam

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *You mean J20s!*


No he means j10..j20s arent meant for india..they are meant for f35

J10 are more than capable to handle rafale

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## kaevmaan

King Julien said:


> Sweets for PDF members on arrival of Rafale and tolerating MMRCA drama


Dhulania (Bride) ki nazar bhi to utariyay na


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## ptltejas

At last.... such a long wait.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*Rafales are no game changers in their present form according to Ajay Shukla.
The jubilation around the arrival of 5 Rafales seems to overlook that:
1. They are arriving 9 months late. 
2. They have no “India Specific Enhancements”, for which we paid €1.7 billion. Those will be fitted only after 2022. 
3. The IAF is down to just 29 squadrons.*

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## GamoAccu

5 Rafale jets and Indians jumping up and down

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## Progressive1

lol its funny how they are billed as some holy dieties and defender of bharat mata , indians are funny people.

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## Dil Pakistan




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## Caprxl

Dil Pakistan said:


>



Hehhehehe, seems monkeys have banned the video for Pakistani Viewers


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## airomerix

Operational within a week? What a plethora of crap. Is it a Maruti 800 purchase that is 'just buy and drive'? 

Before anyone vomits all over this thread, take the word of IAF's own Air Marshal on the subject. 

*



According to Air Marshal Matheswaran (retd), “It would take almost a year before the first squadron is fully equipped with its strength of 18 aircraft and all associated equipment and weapons, as well as the training of all its aircrew. Similarly, the second squadron is expected to be operational by the middle of 2022. So it would be at least a year before the Rafale brings the weight of its significant capabilities to air operations in the region

Click to expand...

*
https://www.financialexpress.com/de...-both-pakistan-and-china-says-expert/2036197/

I look forward to these keyboard warriors crucifying this Air Marshal for his blasphemous statement. IAF Rafales are ready. And they are already buzzing the Pakistani towers with 2000L drop tanks on their way home.

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## GlobalVillageSpace

*Global Village Space |*
On Wednesday, India received a batch of five new Rafale fighter jets in the presence of Indian Air Force (IAF) Chief Air Chief Marshal (ACM) R.K.S. Bhadauria.

The jets took off from France on Monday and landed in the UAE for an overnight stopover before reaching India. These Rafale fighter jets are part of India’s deal with France, signed in 2016 to buy 36 warplanes. The remaining Rafale fighter aircrafts are expected to reach India by the next year.

The delivery of these jets raised eyebrows amid the ongoing border tensions with China. Informed sources believe that the arrival of the jets will boost the morale of the Indian Air force, which has been facing a shortage of fighter aircraft. It is noteworthy that this is the first imported fighter to be inducted into Service since the Sukhoi-30s from Russia in the late 90s.

Read more: India, China agree to withdraw troops from Ladakh

Air Marshal (retd) Pranab Kumar Barbora, who oversaw the induction of the Jaguar aircraft fleet, said that the arrival of the Rafale was a welcome move because “it will significantly enhance the air force’s capability”.

Rafale fighter jets landed at the Ambala airbase on Wednesday afternoon in the presence of Indian Air Force (IAF) Chief Air Chief Marshal (ACM) R.K.S. Bhadauria.

Rajnath Singh, India’s Defence Minister in a series of tweets said: “The touchdown of Rafale combat aircraft in India marks the beginning of a new era in our Military History. These multirole aircraft will revolutionalise the capabilities of the IAF”.

“I would like to add, if it is anyone who should be worried about or critical about this new capability of the IAF, it should be those who want to threaten our territorial integrity,” he further added.
*Read full article...
India celebrates arrival of Rafale fighter jets
*


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## ayodhyapati

GlobalVillageSpace said:


> *Global Village Space |*
> On Wednesday, India received a batch of five new Rafale fighter jets in the presence of Indian Air Force (IAF) Chief Air Chief Marshal (ACM) R.K.S. Bhadauria.
> 
> The jets took off from France on Monday and landed in the UAE for an overnight stopover before reaching India. These Rafale fighter jets are part of India’s deal with France, signed in 2016 to buy 36 warplanes. The remaining Rafale fighter aircrafts are expected to reach India by the next year.
> 
> The delivery of these jets raised eyebrows amid the ongoing border tensions with China. Informed sources believe that the arrival of the jets will boost the morale of the Indian Air force, which has been facing a shortage of fighter aircraft. It is noteworthy that this is the first imported fighter to be inducted into Service since the Sukhoi-30s from Russia in the late 90s.
> 
> Read more: India, China agree to withdraw troops from Ladakh
> 
> Air Marshal (retd) Pranab Kumar Barbora, who oversaw the induction of the Jaguar aircraft fleet, said that the arrival of the Rafale was a welcome move because “it will significantly enhance the air force’s capability”.
> 
> Rafale fighter jets landed at the Ambala airbase on Wednesday afternoon in the presence of Indian Air Force (IAF) Chief Air Chief Marshal (ACM) R.K.S. Bhadauria.
> 
> Rajnath Singh, India’s Defence Minister in a series of tweets said: “The touchdown of Rafale combat aircraft in India marks the beginning of a new era in our Military History. These multirole aircraft will revolutionalise the capabilities of the IAF”.
> 
> “I would like to add, if it is anyone who should be worried about or critical about this new capability of the IAF, it should be those who want to threaten our territorial integrity,” he further added.
> *Read full article...
> India celebrates arrival of Rafale fighter jets*



five arrived , hope others arrive soon .we need them .


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## IblinI

GamoAccu said:


> 5 Rafale jets and Indians jumping up and down


remind me in China back in 80,90s,a whole village put all of its hope and faith on one boy when the boy made it to a good university in city.

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## rambro

Mighty expensiive for parade flyby

The french didnt tout it as the best jet but indians does it.


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## Vanguard One

rambro said:


> Mighty expensiive for parade flyby
> 
> The french didnt tout it as the best jet but indians does it.



It is a very good 4.5 generation fighter, but the problem is that Indians don't know what to do with it. The Indian strategy is run by monkeys, and they will get peanuts for a very expensive, sophisticated fighter plane.

The SPECTRA suite on this fighter is 30% of the cost, and that alone is worth it, but like I said the Indians don't know the first thing about how to use this plane to its full capabilities.

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## vi-va

ayodhyapati said:


> five arrived , hope others arrive soon .we need them .


Where is the confidence and brag about two and half front war?


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## My-Analogous

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Former IAF chief B S Dhanoa, the architect of Indian humiliation last year comes out with all praise for the mighty Rafale as the sole saviour of Bharat Mata in the present situation. He stops short in nearly declaring the Rafale, an important Indian deity .I am amazed and bemused how this Sardarji made it right to the top to lead a big airforce. Below are some extracts of his interview with HT.*
> " The Rafale with its top of the line electronic warfare suite, Meteor beyond visual range missile and SCALP air to ground weapon with its terrain following capability outguns any threat that the Chinese Air Force produces. Painting a wartime scenario, former top gun said : “ If the IAF is successful in destruction of enemy air defences and suppression of enemy air defences, then the Chinese fighters out in the open at Hotan air base and at Gonggar air base at Lhasa airport are fair targets. Some 70 Chinese aircraft are without protection at Hotan and some 26 aircraft may be parked inside a tunnel which the PLA were building at Lhasa air base,” the former air chief said."
> While Air Chief Marshal (Retd) Dhanoa recognises the threat presented by Chinese J-20 fifth generation fighter, he is very confident that the IAF with its latest Rafale and Su-30 MKI will be able to counter the best the Chinese throw at India.
> “ If Chinese equipment was so good, then why did the Pakistanis only use F-16 aircraft to attack Nangi Tekri brigade in Rajouri sector on February 27, 2019 with Chinese JF-17 merely giving air defence cover to Mirage 3/5 bombers. The Mirage 3/5 dropped the H 2/4 bombs from a safe distance with the JF 17 in a supportive role providing Air Defence to these aircraft! Why does Pakistan use Swedish early air warning platforms up north and keep Chinese AWACS in the south? Why is Pakistan mounting European radar (Selex Gallelio) and Turkish targeting pod on Chinese JF-17 ? The answer is quite evident,” the former Chief said.
> However, the brilliant air tactician recognizes the Chinese threat in form of surface to air missile batteries and artillery guns, which the PLA has packed in occupied Aksai Chin. But he also makes it very clear that with no tree line cover available to the Chinese platforms, they would be sitting ducks if the air defence cover is blown over. “ The Rafale with its advanced terrain following weapons and level II of Digital Terrain Elevation Data available to the Indian pilot, the error probability of the weapon is reduced to mere 10 metres. As I have said in the past, Rafale is a game changer,” former Air Chief Dhanoa said.
> While Dhanoa appreciates the enemy threat, his serving IAF officers make it very clear that the Chinese equipment is not only inferior to the US equipment but also the Russian equipment. “ Why does Chinese Air Force use Russian Su-30 and Su-35 fighters while facing the US threat in South China Sea? The fact is that the Chinese fighters are no match for the American equipment Majority of Chinese equipment is reverse engineering of Russian equipment and fighters have designs of either Su-27 or Su 30 platform. They are even powered by Russian AL 31 F (Su-30) and RD 33 (MiG-29) engines,” a serving air commander told Hindustan Times.
> 
> https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...hief-dhanoa/story-3UJINQ1r8cuGputdMeQpOJ.html
> 
> *Mr B. S Dhanoa has out rightly downgraded the Chinese hardware, such complacency is not a hall mark of a professional. He should be lucky PAF spared his modesty last year, otherwise he would have been in EXILE by now. IAF with this over confident mindset might end up being decimated, if the PAF and PLAAF duo intend to show some force. Both have been practicing hard for the D DAY for some time ,in the neighbourhoods of Ladakh (Shaheen exercises). *


If he is in Pakistan, we court marshal him to make whole airforce useless against enemy. MKI is very good platform but they don't know how to use it.


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## Figaro

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Former IAF chief B S Dhanoa, the architect of Indian humiliation last year comes out with all praise for the mighty Rafale as the sole saviour of Bharat Mata in the present situation. He stops short in nearly declaring the Rafale, an important Indian deity .I am amazed and bemused how this Sardarji made it right to the top to lead a big airforce. Below are some extracts of his interview with HT.*
> " The Rafale with its top of the line electronic warfare suite, Meteor beyond visual range missile and SCALP air to ground weapon with its terrain following capability outguns any threat that the Chinese Air Force produces. Painting a wartime scenario, former top gun said : “ If the IAF is successful in destruction of enemy air defences and suppression of enemy air defences, then the Chinese fighters out in the open at Hotan air base and at Gonggar air base at Lhasa airport are fair targets. Some 70 Chinese aircraft are without protection at Hotan and some 26 aircraft may be parked inside a tunnel which the PLA were building at Lhasa air base,” the former air chief said."
> While Air Chief Marshal (Retd) Dhanoa recognises the threat presented by Chinese J-20 fifth generation fighter, he is very confident that the IAF with its latest Rafale and Su-30 MKI will be able to counter the best the Chinese throw at India.
> “ If Chinese equipment was so good, then why did the Pakistanis only use F-16 aircraft to attack Nangi Tekri brigade in Rajouri sector on February 27, 2019 with Chinese JF-17 merely giving air defence cover to Mirage 3/5 bombers. The Mirage 3/5 dropped the H 2/4 bombs from a safe distance with the JF 17 in a supportive role providing Air Defence to these aircraft! Why does Pakistan use Swedish early air warning platforms up north and keep Chinese AWACS in the south? Why is Pakistan mounting European radar (Selex Gallelio) and Turkish targeting pod on Chinese JF-17 ? The answer is quite evident,” the former Chief said.
> However, the brilliant air tactician recognizes the Chinese threat in form of surface to air missile batteries and artillery guns, which the PLA has packed in occupied Aksai Chin. But he also makes it very clear that with no tree line cover available to the Chinese platforms, they would be sitting ducks if the air defence cover is blown over. “ The Rafale with its advanced terrain following weapons and level II of Digital Terrain Elevation Data available to the Indian pilot, the error probability of the weapon is reduced to mere 10 metres. As I have said in the past, Rafale is a game changer,” former Air Chief Dhanoa said.
> While Dhanoa appreciates the enemy threat, his serving IAF officers make it very clear that the Chinese equipment is not only inferior to the US equipment but also the Russian equipment. “ Why does Chinese Air Force use Russian Su-30 and Su-35 fighters while facing the US threat in South China Sea? The fact is that the Chinese fighters are no match for the American equipment Majority of Chinese equipment is reverse engineering of Russian equipment and fighters have designs of either Su-27 or Su 30 platform. They are even powered by Russian AL 31 F (Su-30) and RD 33 (MiG-29) engines,” a serving air commander told Hindustan Times.
> 
> https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...hief-dhanoa/story-3UJINQ1r8cuGputdMeQpOJ.html
> 
> *Mr B. S Dhanoa has out rightly downgraded the Chinese hardware, such complacency is not a hall mark of a professional. He should be lucky PAF spared his modesty last year, otherwise he would have been in EXILE by now. IAF with this over confident mindset might end up being decimated, if the PAF and PLAAF duo intend to show some force. Both have been practicing hard for the D DAY for some time ,in the neighbourhoods of Ladakh (Shaheen exercises). *


Looks like this guy still has not learned the lessons of 1962 ... as they always say, history will repeat itself.


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## My-Analogous

Leishangthem said:


> 31 vintage like rafale against an endless hoard of much superior j-20B which china can mass produce on whim... yet ,it should be China that ought to be scared.... Logic died .


oh Yeah. same logic we listen for 30MKI till last year. Good luck


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## Salman876

ayodhyapati said:


> what can you do with airforce ? bombing here and there ? you can not get a piece of land for that you need army , but your army is not as capable as your pilots .


With air force, you can stop a mad neighbor from attacking you.


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## Salman876

Rafale is indeed a game changer, before rafale, IAF was completely useless against PLAAF, but now they will be able to challenge PLAAF and may be able to shot few PLAAF jets before defeat.


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## Figaro

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Rafales are no game changers in their present form according to Ajay Shukla.
> The jubilation around the arrival of 5 Rafales seems to overlook that:
> 1. They are arriving 9 months late.
> 2. They have no “India Specific Enhancements”, for which we paid €1.7 billion. Those will be fitted only after 2022.
> 3. The IAF is down to just 29 squadrons.*


India should be very grateful for people like Ajay Shukla who still offer a voice of reason in an increasingly delusional country. How Indian people are brainwashed into believing they shot down a Pakistani F-16, killed 300 terrorists in the "surgical strike," and won the Galwan battle is nothing but shocking to me. Even in World War 2, both Germany and Japan at least had the decency to announce wartime defeats to the public (albeit watered down).

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## Surya 1

LKJ86 said:


> Why do you guys take S-400 so seriously?
> China buys S-400 just to upgrade the old S-300.
> 
> S-400 is just like Su-35 to China.



S 400 sold to china is inferior to one sold to india.


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## Figaro

Surya 1 said:


> S 400 sold to china is inferior to one sold to india.


Yup keep on smoking that dope  ... the higher you get, the more you'll believe that.

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## My-Analogous

Surya 1 said:


> S 400 sold to china is inferior to one sold to india.


And why Russia give inferior system to those who saved them many time recently economically and diplomatically? and give advance system to those who are now setting in US lap?

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## Figaro

My-Analogous said:


> And why Russia give inferior system to those who saved them many time recently economically and diplomatically? and give advance system to those who are now setting in US lap?


Forget the guy ... he says very provocative statements without backing it up with any evidence. The depth of the Indian Russian friendship can be seen when Russia extorted billions of dollars from India to outfit/refurbish the INS Vikramaditya carrier.

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## Daghalodi

Surya 1 said:


> S 400 sold to china is inferior to one sold to india.


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## Daghalodi

Surya 1 said:


> S 400 sold to china is inferior to one sold to india.



Conclusion:

Never take Indian BS seriously


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## Taimoor Khan

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> If Chinese equipment was so good, then why did the Pakistanis only use F-16 aircraft to attack Nangi Tekri brigade in Rajouri sector on February 27, 2019 with Chinese JF-17 merely giving air defence cover to Mirage 3/5 bombers.




What the actual fk? This man was the IAF chief!!!


F16s do not have the capability to deliver standoff ground weapons. Only Mirages and JF17s can. At least he is admitting that brigade in Rajouri was attacked. LOL

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Taimoor Khan said:


> What the actual fk? This man was the IAF chief!!!


*He was presumably giving an Interview around 12 o clock!*


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## ayodhyapati

vi-va said:


> Where is the confidence and brag about two and half front war?



we can defend ourselves in two front war , no problem .


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## vi-va

ayodhyapati said:


> we can defend ourselves in two front war , no problem .


Oh really? So you haven't lose any territory as your PM claimed? If that's the case, what's the farce about?


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*Rafales are over hyped, the newly inducted models have yet to have the modifications the IAF wanted. Its landings in Ambala AB created a euphoria in the Indian media and the general public ,as if there arrivals has SCARED India's rivals.

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288515760738967552*


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## ayodhyapati

vi-va said:


> Oh really? So you haven't lose any territory as your PM claimed? If that's the case, what's the farce about?



china is encroaching on no man's land , we will wait for sometime if china does not backtracks we will also enter somewhere in no man's land and capture it.


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## vi-va

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Rafales are over hyped, the newly inducted models have yet to have the modifications the IAF wanted. Its landings in Ambala AB created a euphoria in the Indian media and the general public ,as if there arrivals has SCARED India's rivals.
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288515760738967552*


Indians mindset.


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## ayodhyapati

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Rafales are over hyped, the newly inducted models have yet to have the modifications the IAF wanted. Its landings in Ambala AB created a euphoria in the Indian media and the general public ,as if there arrivals has SCARED India's rivals.
> 
> https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288515760738967552*



don't worry ,
we will do all things needed .


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## vi-va

ayodhyapati said:


> china is encroaching on no man's land , we will wait for sometime if china does not backtracks we will also enter somewhere in no man's land and capture it.


You must read some article from The Print. 
Do you know the land we get is very strategic, not no man's land at all?
Never mind, your media never told you those stuff. 
Welcome to PDF, which can educate you a little bit.

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## Ali_Baba

Are the Indian Rafales integrated with the Meteor missile as of now, or do they need to wait until 2024 for that capability as it was a custom Indian requirement????


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## Surya 1

Daghalodi said:


> Conclusion:
> 
> Never take Indian BS seriously



No conclusion: PDF has majority of idiots who thinks they are smart.


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## Surya 1

Daghalodi said:


> View attachment 657013
> View attachment 657014



Since you are a typical idiot, I don't take you seriously. Enjoy your idiocy here.


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## Surya 1

My-Analogous said:


> And why Russia give inferior system to those who saved them many time recently economically and diplomatically? and give advance system to those who are now setting in US lap?



Because that thief country steals their weapon design and claims Russian territory thrifts own.


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## Ali_Baba

BON PLAN said:


> FINALLY !!!!
> 
> The end of a long, long, too long story.
> 
> I'm sure IAF will love that bird as they loved Mirage 2000 before.
> 
> A great day for India. I'm proud.



Excellent news, more fresh meat for the PAF Grinder !!!!

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## Eagle_Nest

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2860836227506741

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## Eagle_Nest

Eagle_Nest said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2860836227506741


Auto refilling

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## Daghalodi

Surya 1 said:


> Since you are a typical idiot, I don't take you seriously. Enjoy your idiocy here.



We think you are an idiot and a clown too.

A bharati call center troll who is a nobody is not taken seriously here so keep spewing your nonsense while we laugh the eff off at your crap.

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## polanski

Morale Boost: Indian Air Force received five Rafale fighter jets: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...-air-force-received-five-rafale-fighter-jets/


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## Mighty Lion

*Rafale vs J-20: Ex-IAF chief Dhanoa calls China’s bluff with ‘two simple questions’*

Updated: Jul 31, 2020 11:04 IST
By Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times New Delhi

Former Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa has always highlighted how Rafale fighter jets are better stealth fighters and are not inferior to China’s J-20 jets Rafale is 4.5 generation jet.

Former Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa on Friday dismissed claims that the Rafale fighter jets inducted by the Indian Air Force this week had no chance against China’s J-20 stealth fighter.


The claims, made by an ‘expert’ in Chinese Communist Party’s tabloid Global Times, claimed that the Rafale was superior to the IAF’s Sukhoi-30 MKI jets.

“It is only about one-fourth of a generation more advanced and does not yield a significant qualitative change,” Zhang Xuefeng, who was described by the communist party’s propaganda website as a Chinese military expert, said.


The website, quoting unnamed experts claimed, that “Rafale is only a third-plus generation fighter jet, and does not stand much of a chance against a stealth, fourth generation one like the J-20”.

Ex-IAF chief Dhanoa, who has described the 4.5 generation Rafale fighter jets as a “game changer for the IAF, responded to the Chinese claim with “two simple questions”.

*“If the J-20, also called the Mighty Dragon, is indeed a fifth generation stealth fighter, then why does it have canards while genuine 5th generation fighters such as the US’ F 22, F 35 and Russian fifth generation Su 57 don’t,” Dhanoa asked.*

Canards are fuselage-mounted small, forward wings located forward of the main wing to improve aircraft control and contribute to lift. They are considered to present large angular surfaces that tend to reflect radar signals.


“I don’t think J-20 is stealthy enough to be called a fifth generation fighter as the canard increases the radar signature of the fighter and gives away its position to a long-range BVR missile like the Meteor missile that the Rafale has.

The other question the former IAF chief has for the Chinese is: “*Why can’t the J-20 supercruise if it is really a 5th generation fighter as its manufacturer Chengdu Aerospace Corporation calls it.”*

Supercruise is the ability of a fighter jet to fly at speeds above M 1.0 - the speed of sound - without the use of afterburners, the additional combustion component used on some jet engines to increase thrust.

*“The Rafale has the supercruiseability and its radar signature is comparable to the best of the fighters in the world,” *Dhanoa told Hindustan Times.

The retired top air force officer had earlier this week shredded the Chinese propaganda of superior air capability, wondering that if the Chinese equipment was so good, Pakistan would have used its Chinese JF-17 and not the F-16 aircraft to attack Nangi Tekri brigade in Rajouri sector on 27 February 2019. But Pakistan used the Chinese JF-17 to merely give air defence cover to its Mirage 3/5 bombers. Or why China’s “iron brother” uses Swedish early air warning platforms up north and the keep Chinese AWACS in the south.

Incidentally, India is expected to get 12 more Sukhoi 30 MKI and 21 MiG 29s next year from Russia.

According to diplomats based in Moscow, the new Su-MKIs will “look better, shoot better, and fight better”.

The MiG 29 will be used for setting up a new squadron in Jamnagar in Gujarat and will have the same capability as the MiG 29 that India currently has.

https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-...vypDHeIrXI_amp.html?__twitter_impression=true


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## Mighty Lion

@Knuckles @airomerix @SQ8 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Hodor


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## MM_Haider

Egypt has 24 in service rafale jets... yet can't stop Ethipia building the dam on river Nile.. why is india boosting about 5 rafales so much.. ??

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## vi-va

*Ex-IAF*
*Ex-IAF
Ex-IAF
*
Where is current IAF?

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## Skull and Bones

Even F-35 cannot super-cruise.

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## vi-va

Skull and Bones said:


> Even F-35 cannot super-cruise.


too fat, too heavy.


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## LeGenD

India should propose a *duel* to China to settle this matter.

2 x Rafale vs. 2 x J-20

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## Figaro

LeGenD said:


> India should propose a *duel* to China to settle this matter.
> 
> 2 x Rafale vs. 2 x J-20


Just like calling out a trash talker to play basketball ... hint: the trashtalker usually loses

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## Pappa Alpha

Alright, then India should have no problem taking back it's lost territory. Let's see when that happens.

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## LeGenD

Skull and Bones said:


> Even F-35 cannot super-cruise.


It does up to MACH 1.2.

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## Joe Shearer

Figaro said:


> Just like calling out a trash talker to play basketball ... hint: the trashtalker usually loses



We would NEVER humiliate you guys like that.

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## Joe Shearer

Pappa Alpha said:


> Alright, then India should have no problem taking back it's lost territory. Let's see when that happens.



Yes, it would be a wonderful vision. One Rafale parked on the ground in the extreme left corner, one in the extreme right corner - All right, little ones, off you go, home to your Mums. 

Dumb Americans. They could have taken over North Vietnam so many times over, given the number of superior planes they had.


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## airomerix

Mighty Lion said:


> *Rafale vs J-20: Ex-IAF chief Dhanoa calls China’s bluff with ‘two simple questions’*
> 
> Updated: Jul 31, 2020 11:04 IST
> By Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times New Delhi
> 
> Former Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa has always highlighted how Rafale fighter jets are better stealth fighters and are not inferior to China’s J-20 jets Rafale is 4.5 generation jet.
> 
> Former Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa on Friday dismissed claims that the Rafale fighter jets inducted by the Indian Air Force this week had no chance against China’s J-20 stealth fighter.
> 
> 
> The claims, made by an ‘expert’ in Chinese Communist Party’s tabloid Global Times, claimed that the Rafale was superior to the IAF’s Sukhoi-30 MKI jets.
> 
> “It is only about one-fourth of a generation more advanced and does not yield a significant qualitative change,” Zhang Xuefeng, who was described by the communist party’s propaganda website as a Chinese military expert, said.
> 
> 
> The website, quoting unnamed experts claimed, that “Rafale is only a third-plus generation fighter jet, and does not stand much of a chance against a stealth, fourth generation one like the J-20”.
> 
> Ex-IAF chief Dhanoa, who has described the 4.5 generation Rafale fighter jets as a “game changer for the IAF, responded to the Chinese claim with “two simple questions”.
> 
> *“If the J-20, also called the Mighty Dragon, is indeed a fifth generation stealth fighter, then why does it have canards while genuine 5th generation fighters such as the US’ F 22, F 35 and Russian fifth generation Su 57 don’t,” Dhanoa asked.*
> 
> Canards are fuselage-mounted small, forward wings located forward of the main wing to improve aircraft control and contribute to lift. They are considered to present large angular surfaces that tend to reflect radar signals.
> 
> 
> “I don’t think J-20 is stealthy enough to be called a fifth generation fighter as the canard increases the radar signature of the fighter and gives away its position to a long-range BVR missile like the Meteor missile that the Rafale has.
> 
> The other question the former IAF chief has for the Chinese is: “*Why can’t the J-20 supercruise if it is really a 5th generation fighter as its manufacturer Chengdu Aerospace Corporation calls it.”*
> 
> Supercruise is the ability of a fighter jet to fly at speeds above M 1.0 - the speed of sound - without the use of afterburners, the additional combustion component used on some jet engines to increase thrust.
> 
> *“The Rafale has the supercruiseability and its radar signature is comparable to the best of the fighters in the world,” *Dhanoa told Hindustan Times.
> 
> The retired top air force officer had earlier this week shredded the Chinese propaganda of superior air capability, wondering that if the Chinese equipment was so good, Pakistan would have used its Chinese JF-17 and not the F-16 aircraft to attack Nangi Tekri brigade in Rajouri sector on 27 February 2019. But Pakistan used the Chinese JF-17 to merely give air defence cover to its Mirage 3/5 bombers. Or why China’s “iron brother” uses Swedish early air warning platforms up north and the keep Chinese AWACS in the south.
> 
> Incidentally, India is expected to get 12 more Sukhoi 30 MKI and 21 MiG 29s next year from Russia.
> 
> According to diplomats based in Moscow, the new Su-MKIs will “look better, shoot better, and fight better”.
> 
> The MiG 29 will be used for setting up a new squadron in Jamnagar in Gujarat and will have the same capability as the MiG 29 that India currently has.
> 
> https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-...vypDHeIrXI_amp.html?__twitter_impression=true



Probably the most incompetent/ill-advised/corrupt Air Chief IAF ever had.

a. Canards of a certain shape, size, angle, metal, and coating retain the stealth characteristics. Hence it is moronic to suggest that fighters with canards are less stealthy as compared to those without it. Rafale has canards, Mirage 3/5 do not. Yet the Rafale has a smaller RCS compared to them.

b. Supercruise does contribute to stealth but its absence in J-20 does not demote it to 4th generation or even 4.5 generation. J-20's armed with PL-15's won't have to deal with Rafales anyway. (Edit: F-35's also dont have supercruise. I dont see anyone claiming it to be anything less than a 5th generation) 

c. Indians are still damned at admitting that JF-17s violated their airspace and targetted installations. Yet the imbecile is claiming that Pakistan used F-16s to attack (oh the F-16 obsession).

This moron didn't have the balls to contest Christian Fair in Chandigarh. When she thrashed the entire agenda of the event by rubbishing IAF claims of Spice bombs destroying balakot targets only from the inside and of course, bison shooting down F-16.

This fat man is not to be taken seriously.

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## Figaro

airomerix said:


> Probably the most incompetent/illadvised/corrupt Air Chief IAF ever had.
> 
> a. Canards of a certain shape, size, angle, metal, and coating retain the stealth characteristics. Hence it is moronic to suggest that fighters with canards are less stealthy as compared to those without it. Rafale has canards, Mirage 3/5 do not. Yet the Rafale has a smaller RCS compared to them.
> 
> b. Supercruise does contribute to stealth but its absence in J-20 does not demote it to 4th generation or even 4.5 generation. J-20's armed with PL-15's wont have to deal with Rafales anyway.
> 
> c. Indians are still damned at admitting that JF-17s violated their airspace and targetted installations. Yet the imbecile is claiming that Pakistan used F-16s to attack (oh the F-16 obsession).
> 
> This moron didnt have the balls to contest Christian Fair in Chandigarh. When she thrased the entire agenda of the event by rubbishing IAF claims of Spice bombs destroying balakot targets only from the inside and ofcourse, bison shooting down F-16.
> 
> This fat man is not to be taken seriously.


F-35 cannot supercruise either ... according this air marshal's reasoning, the F-35 is not a 5th gen fighter either.

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## Leishangthem

This is just how Indians operates, they are out there to just scam everyone, they think every one is low lQ like them and they can operate on nonsensical big talks.
Rafale is like a vintage plane fit for museums when j20b is concerned.

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## Riz

Another day another Bullshit from Bullshit dhona


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## Mighty Lion

airomerix said:


> Canards of a certain shape, size, angle, metal, and coating retain the stealth characteristics. Hence it is moronic to suggest that fighters with canards are less stealthy as compared to those without it. Rafale has canards, Mirage 3/5 do not. Yet the Rafale has a smaller RCS compared to them.


Wrong again, canards of all characteristics will cause a spike in frontal RCS relative to a configuration without canards


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## airomerix

Mighty Lion said:


> Wrong again, canards of all characteristics will cause a spike in frontal RCS relative to a configuration without canards




Read up on X-36. A dedicated low observable aircraft from Boeing that was designed with canards.

The general rule of thumb is, RCS is directly proportional to surface area and canards increase it and so does rudder, wings, ailerons. However, canards designed for stealth will do their job.

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## Mighty Lion

airomerix said:


> You probably make even the most illiterate of your countrymen as 'smarter'
> 
> Read up on X-36. A dedicated low observable aircraft from Boeing that was designed with canards.
> 
> The general rule of thumb is, RCS is directly proportional to surface area and canards increase it and so does rudder, wings, ailerons. However, canards designed for stealth will do their job. Doesnt matter how much your crooked and shameless ex chief yapps about it.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 657295


It never progressed beyond prototype stage because of poor design and capability .


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## Mighty Lion

Figaro said:


> F-35 cannot supercruise either ... according this air marshal's reasoning, the F-35 is not a 5th gen fighter either.


No really.


> The F-35, while not technically a "supercruising" aircraft, can maintain Mach 1.2 for a dash of 150 miles without using fuel-gulping afterburners. But in order to cruise at Mach 1.2 without afterburner, it would need to reach Mach 1.3 to Mach 1.4 using it's afterburner after which pilot can disengage the afterburner and cruise for the next 150 miles at speeds right above Mach 1.
> 
> "Mach 1.2 is a good speed for you, according to the pilots," chief designer O’Bryan said.


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## Pappa Alpha

Joe Shearer said:


> Yes, it would be a wonderful vision. One Rafale parked on the ground in the extreme left corner, one in the extreme right corner - All right, little ones, off you go, home to your Mums.
> 
> Dumb Americans. They could have taken over North Vietnam so many times over, given the number of superior planes they had.



Aircraft cannot defeat trained gorillas. Scary beings.


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## Figaro

Mighty Lion said:


> No really.


150 miles and at Mach 1.2 ... sounds like Lockheed Martin's excuse for a lack of super cruise versus a actual super-cruise capable aircraft like the F-22


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## vi-va

LeGenD said:


> It does up to MACH 1.2.


*The Pentagon will have to live with limits on F-35’s supersonic flights*
*Supersonic speeds could cause big problems for the F-35′s stealth coating*


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## Sineva

LeGenD said:


> India should propose a *duel* to China to settle this matter.
> 
> 2 x Rafale vs. 2 x J-20


That is a CAPITAL IDEA SIR!!
Now how do we go about setting it up?,because I imagine that the indians are literally champing at the bit to show the entire world not only how much better their new french planes are compared to their old russian sukhois,but how much better they are compared to chinas fifth gen aircraft as well!!.
This is indias moment to shine,so I`m sure they wont turn down a challenge.

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## Joe Shearer

Pappa Alpha said:


> Aircraft cannot defeat trained gorillas. Scary beings.



LOL.

You got me on that one.


----------



## LeGenD

vi-va said:


> *The Pentagon will have to live with limits on F-35’s supersonic flights*
> *Supersonic speeds could cause big problems for the F-35′s stealth coating*


Whatever the problems are, they are being FIXED. These are very complex machines.

*Every* aircraft in the world has "problems." Problems are also variable - some units work better than others. This is why maintenance is necessary and solutions are sought to fix problems.

You will learn more from pilot testimonials.

There is no such thing as picture-perfection.


----------



## vi-va

LeGenD said:


> Whatever the problems are, they are being FIXED. These are very complex machines.
> 
> *Every* aircraft in the world has "problems." Problems are also variable - some units work better than others. This is why maintenance is necessary and solutions are sought to fix problems.
> 
> You will learn more from pilot testimonials.
> 
> There is no such thing as picture-perfection.


Maybe.
But not every problem has a solution. 
F-35 has design defect, which can NOT be fixed I think. F-35 lift coefficient is too bad. Basically you need a slim jet or a over powerful engine to be supersonic cruise. F-35 has neither of them compared with the overweight body.


----------



## LeGenD

airomerix said:


> a. Canards of a certain shape, size, angle, metal, and coating retain the stealth characteristics. Hence it is moronic to suggest that fighters with canards are less stealthy as compared to those without it. Rafale has canards, Mirage 3/5 do not. Yet the Rafale has a smaller RCS compared to them.


Shaping and structure of the entire aircraft contribute to reduction of the RCS. An aircraft with canards can have a small uniform rcs but it cannot be VLO.



airomerix said:


> b. Supercruise does contribute to stealth but its absence in J-20 does not demote it to 4th generation or even 4.5 generation. J-20's armed with PL-15's won't have to deal with Rafales anyway. (Edit: F-35's also dont have supercruise. I dont see anyone claiming it to be anything less than a 5th generation)


F-35 has super-cruise up to MACH 1.2.


----------



## Sineva

Joe Shearer said:


> Yes, it would be a wonderful vision. One Rafale parked on the ground in the extreme left corner, one in the extreme right corner - All right, little ones, off you go, home to your Mums.
> 
> Dumb Americans. They could have taken over North Vietnam so many times over, given the number of superior planes they had.


Last time I looked it wasnt aircraft that invaded countries and seized territory and occupied it,that actually required the use of boots on the ground,usually quite a lot of them in fact.
Despite all of the many claims and boasts of the airpower pundits and theoreticians of the last 100+ years we have still yet to see a war won purely only by air power.

PS
The reason that the us didnt try an invasion of north vietnam was because of the virtually certain intervention of a now nuclear armed prc if it did.


----------



## LeGenD

vi-va said:


> Maybe.
> But not every problem has a solution.
> F-35 has design defect, which can NOT be fixed I think. F-35 lift coefficient is too bad. Basically you need a slim jet or a over powerful engine to be supersonic cruise. F-35 has neither of them compared with the overweight body.


I would say that F-35 has received undue amount of PRESS and criticism which is detrimental in a way. Every aircraft including J-20 have problems and shortcomings which are slowly but surely being fixed. China is doing the right thing by not talking much about J-20 in its PRESS. People tend to have wrong ideas otherwise.

Numerous American pilots have testified that F-35 can do maneuvers which other jets cannot with the exception of F-22A. However, of-course, F-35 cannot be superior to another jet in every metric conceived - this is unrealistic expectation.

F-35 have excellent low-observability and sensor architecture coupled with desired level of kinematics to deliver good results and ensure air superiority in its missions. Make no mistake.

Please keep in mind that F-35 is equipped with a very powerful engine - it enable F-35 to do things which other single engine designs cannot.

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## Figaro

LeGenD said:


> F-35 has super-cruise up to MACH 1.2.


It does not have sustained super-cruise like the F-22 ... it can only "dash" for a certain amount of time (roughly 150 miles) at a rather shabby Mach 1.2. That is not super cruise and is one of the F-35s large design drawbacks that was somehow just ignored by LockMart rather than fixed (too late now anyway).

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252Faviation%252Fcomments%252F37twlx%252F


----------



## I S I

BS with BS again.


----------



## Joe Shearer

Sineva said:


> Last time I looked it wasnt aircraft that invaded countries and seized territory and occupied it,that actually required the use of boots on the ground,usually quite a lot of them in fact.



Just idle curiousity: WHY did you write this post?


----------



## airomerix

LeGenD said:


> Shaping and structure of the entire aircraft contribute to reduction of the RCS. An aircraft with canards can have a small uniform rcs but it cannot be VLO.
> 
> 
> F-35 has super-cruise up to MACH 1.2.



Mach 1.2 is hardly supersonic in my opinion.


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## LeGenD

Figaro said:


> It does not have sustained super-cruise like the F-22 ... it can only "dash" for a certain amount of time (roughly 150 miles). That is not super cruise and is one of the F-35s large design drawbacks that was somehow just ignored by LockMart.
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252Faviation%252Fcomments%252F37twlx%252F


This was in 2012.

To give you some perspective, there is hell of a difference between radar system of F-35 in prototyping stage and the variant approved for mass production. This improvement was done in sheer silence but somebody leaked information in 2016.

I wouldn't expect Lockheed Martin to tell every manner of improvement in F-35 to the Public.

I just know that engine of F-35 is a very powerful one and there is a reason why this jet was equipped with it.



airomerix said:


> Mach 1.2 is hardly supersonic in my opinion.


Well, it is something and useful.

But yes! Only F-22A has *true* super-cruise capability. Rest is noise.


----------



## Figaro

LeGenD said:


> This was in 2012.
> 
> To give you some perspective, there is hell of a difference between radar system of F-35 in prototyping stage and the variant approved for mass production. This improvement was done in sheer silence but somebody leaked information in 2016.
> 
> I wouldn't expect Lockheed Martin to tell every manner of improvement in F-35 to the Public.
> 
> I just know that engine of F-35 is a very powerful one and there is a reason why this jet was equipped with it.


The inability to supercruise is an inherent design problem ... you can improve the radar but how would you fix the design limitation? Super cruise was not even one of the main design objectives, which is a key flaw of the F-35 program IMHO. If there were any serious upgrades or even an indication to fix this problem, Lockheed Martin would be more than happy to announce it given the bad press they've been getting in recent years.


----------



## LeGenD

Figaro said:


> The inability to supercruise is an inherent design problem ... you can improve the radar but how would you fix the design limitation? It appears that super cruise was not even one of the main design objectives, which is a key flaw of the F-35 program IMHO.
> View attachment 657305


My friend,

That is old report (2003).

Think what would be the situation now.

There are tweaks to design aspects of F-35 in newer blocks. The upcoming Block 4 have further amendments - it is a big leap from the original.

F-35 now exist in different blocks and many will be uplifted to latest standard.


----------



## Sineva

Joe Shearer said:


> Just idle curiousity: WHY did you write this post?


Probably because your comment was just so really,really stupid that if you`d actually stopped and thought about it for a second then you hopefully wouldnt have written it in the first place.....but sadly you did.


----------



## Figaro

LeGenD said:


> My friend,
> 
> That is old report (2003).
> 
> Think what would be the situation now.
> 
> There are tweets to design aspects of F-35 in newer blocks. The upcoming Block 4 have further amendments - it is a big leap from the original.
> 
> F-35 now exist in different blocks and many will be uplifted to latest standard.


Please give me evidence on how Lockheed Martin is going to fix this major design problem ... a problem that has been there since the inception of the JSF program? I am sure if Lockheed Martin could fix it with relative ease, they would announce it to the rest of the world given the massive amount of flak the JSF has been getting in American media.


----------



## LeGenD

Figaro said:


> Please give me evidence on how Lockheed Martin is going to fix this major design problem ... a problem that has been there since the inception of the JSF program?


Super-cruise output come from the engine - design of the jet is not the issue.


----------



## litman

indians are loser and keep on displaying their defeatist mentality since 27 feb. they have no confidence on their professionalism and always brag about the hardware .they used to worship su 30 till last year and suddenly their god betrayed them and they were looking for a new one. i remember watching a documentary on nat geo many years ago in which indian sukhoi pilots were bragging about their plane and they also mentioned some of the tactics they will use with su 30 . he said that we will take this jet at 30000 feet and let the enemy identify it and if they still have the guts to challenge it they can accept the challenge. and after 27 even modi accepted the defeat when he said k agar rafale hota to...............the simple fact is that PAF hit them so hard that day that they are still in a state of shock and these statements about rafale are just for restoring some pride for the IAF. they will suffer from the post traumatic stress disorder for years to come.


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## Figaro

LeGenD said:


> Super-cruise output come from the engine - design of the jet is not the issue.


The F135 has more than enough dry thrust to supercruise ...


----------



## LeGenD

Figaro said:


> The F135 has more than enough dry thrust to supercruise ...


FYI: https://www.defensenews.com/industr...is-pitching-a-new-version-of-the-f-35-engine/

Block 4 is mentioned. Take this as a hint.

Engine has been built - it can be improved and fine-tuned as per the need.

Refer back to my post # 37.


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## Trango Towers

So having canards means it's not 5th gen and no super cruise means it's not 5thb gen.

Is this man for real...who did he get butt effed by to get to his seat?


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## atan651

Air Chief Marshal *BS* Dhanoa.

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## LeGenD

atan651 said:


> Air Chief Marshal *BS* Dhanoa.




Size name matters.

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## Feng Leng

LOL Indians are so frustrated because their $300 million / airframe Rafales become worthless junk already

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## vi-va

LeGenD said:


> I would say that F-35 has received undue amount of PRESS and criticism which is detrimental in a way. Every aircraft including J-20 have problems and shortcomings which are slowly but surely being fixed. China is doing the right thing by not talking much about J-20 in its PRESS. People tend to have wrong ideas otherwise.
> 
> Numerous American pilots have testified that F-35 can do maneuvers which other jets cannot with the exception of F-22A. However, of-course, F-35 cannot be superior to another jet in every metric conceived - this is unrealistic expectation.
> 
> F-35 have excellent low-observability and sensor architecture coupled with desired level of kinematics to deliver good results and ensure air superiority in its missions. Make no mistake.
> 
> Please keep in mind that F-35 is equipped with a very powerful engine - it enable F-35 to do things which other single engine designs cannot.


F-35 empty weight 13,290 kg, max take off weight 31,751 kg.
F-16 empty weight 8,573 kg, max take off weight 19,187 kg.
F-35 maneuverability is not good, much worse than F-16. Flight envelope is bad.


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## LeGenD

vi-va said:


> F-35 empty weight 13,290 kg, max take off weight 31,751 kg.
> F-16 empty weight 8,573 kg, max take off weight 19,187 kg.
> F-35 maneuverability is not good, much worse than F-16. Flight envelope is bad.
> View attachment 657311
> 
> 
> View attachment 657312


Watch this footage:






Please keep in mind the fact that the maneuverability aspects of F-35 were first unlocked in 2017. All manner of restrictions will be lifted in the upcoming Block 4.

And keep in mind another fact that F-35 is by design a heavily-equipped aircraft due to numerous sensor systems and even fuel tanks being *in-built*. Even then this aircraft has superior control, endurance, and turn-aspect than a heavily-loaded F-16 (F-35 is not hampered by air-resistance/drag) - this coupled with vastly superior low-observability suggest a remarkable leap in the airframe design aspect.

Kinematics are important *but* 4th generation arguments, my friend.

Study the latest RED FLAG events and you will have some idea.

Do not retrace 'negativity' for the sake of it - understand things from DEVELOPMENT standpoint.

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## Joe Shearer

Sineva said:


> Probably because your comment was just so really,really stupid that if you`d actually stopped and thought about it for a second then you hopefully wouldnt have written it in the first place.....but sadly you did.



The word 'sarcasm' never crossed your mind, of course.


----------



## My-Analogous

ayodhyapati said:


> we can defend ourselves in two front war , no problem .


Good luck


----------



## My-Analogous

Surya 1 said:


> Because that thief country steals their weapon design and claims Russian territory thrifts own.


Post clearly what is your point. Which country you are referring?


----------



## MirageBlue

BON PLAN said:


> FINALLY !!!!
> 
> The end of a long, long, too long story.
> 
> I'm sure IAF will love that bird as they loved Mirage 2000 before.
> 
> A great day for India. I'm proud.



Yes indeed. The Rafale and MRCA saga has been so damn tedious and difficult for the IAF, it's really a sad indictment of India's screwed up procurement processes.

Now that the IAF has gotten it's first Rafales on Indian soil, I think the groundwork is now somewhat laid for an additional order for Rafales. As far as the Indian public is concerned now, the Rafale is the best fighter the IAF can get. So even with the opposition Congress Party raising a lot of BS scam allegations, no one may take them seriously now.

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## Beefeatergin

Why doesn’t this guy tell saab before they make a mistake on their next gen fighter





They should have learned from Indian developed stealth fighter








see no carnards


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## kongn

J-20 is detectable even on PESA radar of MKI .Forget taking on the AESA of rafale with SPECTRA and IRST suite and meteor.Fake chinese stealth just like everything chinese is either copy or fake.Failed engines on top of that.

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## Avatar

The point about canards is extremely valid. Having extruding canards removes any possibility of stealth. Its just a paper tiger. Without stealth, its just a 4.5th gen, unproven warplane based on foreign designs and engine. It maybe good but definitely not one of the best.


----------



## Avatar

airomerix said:


> Probably the most incompetent/ill-advised/corrupt Air Chief IAF ever had.
> 
> a. Canards of a certain shape, size, angle, metal, and coating retain the stealth characteristics. Hence it is moronic to suggest that fighters with canards are less stealthy as compared to those without it. Rafale has canards, Mirage 3/5 do not. Yet the Rafale has a smaller RCS compared to them.



Clearly, you seem to have lost the use of your brain. There is a difference in low RCS and no RCS. The most important feature of a 5th gen fighter is complete stealth/ invisibility/ giving it the advantage of first strike. Even a small RCS of stealthy canards can be picked up by modern radars, but PLAF absolutely needed those canards even at the cost of stealth because without them J-20 must be very clumsy at high g maneuvers.


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*A funny article by an incompetent journalist.
https://zeenews.india.com/india/chi...aims-iaf-rafales-no-match-for-it-2299763.html*

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## Beefeatergin

kongn said:


> J-20 is detectable even on PESA radar of MKI .Forget taking on the AESA of rafale with SPECTRA and IRST suite and meteor.Fake chinese stealth just like everything chinese is either copy or fake.Failed engines on top of that.


Only detected based on claims from guy who believes India invented internet 9000 years ago


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## Feng Leng

LMFAO every single flight surface on a aircraft can be stealth except for those small wings before a delta wing -- that flight surface cannot be stealth by the laws of physics


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## Beefeatergin

Given India’s maintenance capabilities I doubt they will be able to make the most of the rafale 




Just look at how their t 90 handled the incline compared to a t 72 from a competently maintained military


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## PradoTLC

MM_Haider said:


> Egypt has 24 in service rafale jets... yet can't stop Ethipia building the dam on river Nile.. why is india boosting about 5 rafales so much.. ??




They just need to talk...


besides was this same ACM on the job when PAF chopped IAF balls on 27 feb...


He should explain why didn’t his airforce counter strike ?

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## vi-va

LeGenD said:


> Watch this footage:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please keep in mind the fact that the maneuverability aspects of F-35 were first unlocked in 2017. All manner of restrictions will be lifted in the upcoming Block 4.
> 
> And keep in mind another fact that F-35 is by design a heavily-equipped aircraft due to numerous sensor systems and even fuel tanks being *in-built*. Even then this aircraft has superior control, endurance, and turn-aspect than a heavily-loaded F-16 (F-35 is not hampered by air-resistance/drag) - this coupled with vastly superior low-observability suggest a remarkable leap in the airframe design aspect.
> 
> Kinematics are important *but* 4th generation arguments, my friend.
> 
> Study the latest RED FLAG events and you will have some idea.
> 
> Do not retrace 'negativity' for the sake of it - understand things from DEVELOPMENT standpoint.


Good video, Thank. I knew this youtube channel, he came to China Zhuhai 2018 as well. His video recording is awesome.
F-35 is a serious threat, stealthy and situational awareness capability is very well. But maneuverability is just so so. Actually I do believe maneuverability is not as important in BVR anymore.


----------



## Surya 1

Mighty Lion said:


> *Rafale vs J-20: Ex-IAF chief Dhanoa calls China’s bluff with ‘two simple questions’*
> 
> Updated: Jul 31, 2020 11:04 IST
> By Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times New Delhi
> 
> Former Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa has always highlighted how Rafale fighter jets are better stealth fighters and are not inferior to China’s J-20 jets Rafale is 4.5 generation jet.
> 
> Former Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa on Friday dismissed claims that the Rafale fighter jets inducted by the Indian Air Force this week had no chance against China’s J-20 stealth fighter.
> 
> 
> The claims, made by an ‘expert’ in Chinese Communist Party’s tabloid Global Times, claimed that the Rafale was superior to the IAF’s Sukhoi-30 MKI jets.
> 
> “It is only about one-fourth of a generation more advanced and does not yield a significant qualitative change,” Zhang Xuefeng, who was described by the communist party’s propaganda website as a Chinese military expert, said.
> 
> 
> The website, quoting unnamed experts claimed, that “Rafale is only a third-plus generation fighter jet, and does not stand much of a chance against a stealth, fourth generation one like the J-20”.
> 
> Ex-IAF chief Dhanoa, who has described the 4.5 generation Rafale fighter jets as a “game changer for the IAF, responded to the Chinese claim with “two simple questions”.
> 
> *“If the J-20, also called the Mighty Dragon, is indeed a fifth generation stealth fighter, then why does it have canards while genuine 5th generation fighters such as the US’ F 22, F 35 and Russian fifth generation Su 57 don’t,” Dhanoa asked.*
> 
> Canards are fuselage-mounted small, forward wings located forward of the main wing to improve aircraft control and contribute to lift. They are considered to present large angular surfaces that tend to reflect radar signals.
> 
> 
> “I don’t think J-20 is stealthy enough to be called a fifth generation fighter as the canard increases the radar signature of the fighter and gives away its position to a long-range BVR missile like the Meteor missile that the Rafale has.
> 
> The other question the former IAF chief has for the Chinese is: “*Why can’t the J-20 supercruise if it is really a 5th generation fighter as its manufacturer Chengdu Aerospace Corporation calls it.”*
> 
> Supercruise is the ability of a fighter jet to fly at speeds above M 1.0 - the speed of sound - without the use of afterburners, the additional combustion component used on some jet engines to increase thrust.
> 
> *“The Rafale has the supercruiseability and its radar signature is comparable to the best of the fighters in the world,” *Dhanoa told Hindustan Times.
> 
> The retired top air force officer had earlier this week shredded the Chinese propaganda of superior air capability, wondering that if the Chinese equipment was so good, Pakistan would have used its Chinese JF-17 and not the F-16 aircraft to attack Nangi Tekri brigade in Rajouri sector on 27 February 2019. But Pakistan used the Chinese JF-17 to merely give air defence cover to its Mirage 3/5 bombers. Or why China’s “iron brother” uses Swedish early air warning platforms up north and the keep Chinese AWACS in the south.
> 
> Incidentally, India is expected to get 12 more Sukhoi 30 MKI and 21 MiG 29s next year from Russia.
> 
> According to diplomats based in Moscow, the new Su-MKIs will “look better, shoot better, and fight better”.
> 
> The MiG 29 will be used for setting up a new squadron in Jamnagar in Gujarat and will have the same capability as the MiG 29 that India currently has.
> 
> https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-...vypDHeIrXI_amp.html?__twitter_impression=true



Actually it is a question of definition. Chinese J20 is a fifth generation plane with bellow par stuff of 3rd generation capability. It maneuvers worse than jaguar, it has a radar bellow par the radar of India's Jaguar Darin III. It was detected in Lhasa by MKI 300 km away with PESA radar. J20 is just for boosting the ego of our cute chinese friends.

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## Darth Vader

Faceplam movement 
Hes EX chief and hes saying that ?
Please someone tell me whats the main characteristics of being a 5th ( 4th Gen Chinese ) aircraft.


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## kongn

Beefeatergin said:


> Only detected based on claims from guy who believes India invented internet 9000 years ago



Nope, acc to our air force chief.

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## AZ1

Finally





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=566249547587479


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## Beefeatergin

kongn said:


> Nope, acc to our air force chief.





kongn said:


> Nope, acc to our air force chief.


the airforce chief who believes India invented the internet 9000 years ago and hasn’t hear is luneberg lens

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## ziaulislam

PradoTLC said:


> They just need to talk...
> 
> 
> besides was this same ACM on the job when PAF chopped IAF balls on 27 feb...
> 
> 
> He should explain why didn’t his airforce counter strike ?


Rafale aur "balls" nahi thay...didnt the PM modi already explain it


----------



## ziaulislam

Surya 1 said:


> Actually it is a question of definition. Chinese J20 is a fifth generation plane with bellow par stuff of 3rd generation capability. It maneuvers worse than jaguar, it has a radar bellow par the radar of India's Jaguar Darin III. It was detected in Lhasa by MKI 300 km away with PESA radar. J20 is just for boosting the ego of our cute chinese friends.


Darling III project has been cancelled due to lack of mojo in 50 years old trainers jauguar engines and lack of money to buy new engines


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## ziaulislam

Beefeatergin said:


> the airforce chief who believes India invented the internet 9000 years ago and hasn’t hear is luneberg lens
> View attachment 657335


He would say luneberg lens were added to avoid embracement from indias raptor of the east


----------



## Mighty Lion

Beefeatergin said:


> the airforce chief who believes India invented the internet 9000 years ago and hasn’t hear is luneberg lens
> View attachment 657335


he also said they were not equipped with luneberg lens.


----------



## Surya 1

ziaulislam said:


> Darling III project has been cancelled due to lack of mojo in 50 years old trainers jauguar engines and lack of money to buy new engines



Few Jaguars upgraded with Darin III has better many better stuff than Junk 20.


----------



## ziaulislam

Surya 1 said:


> Few Jaguars upgraded with Darin III has better many better stuff than Junk 20.


I know it was so superior that india decided few are enough to takle the 500+ j10s. 
Now its going to be 3 darin III prototypes vs PLAAF

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## Lord Of Gondor

ziaulislam said:


> Now its going to be 3 darin III prototypes vs PLAAF



Yes, IAF spent quarter of a Billion on AIM-132 for just 3 prototypes.


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## ziaulislam

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Yes, IAF spent quarter of a Billion on AIM-132 for just 3 prototypes.


Pretty much what IAF does..who knows how it thinks..we all enjoyed the frantic screams of abhi and her instructor because IAF thought of saving some money instead of getting a secure link.
Now it doesnt want to pay 3b$ for engines so darin III is going to be like darling III

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## Lord Of Gondor

ziaulislam said:


> Now it doesnt want to pay 3b$ for engines so darin III is going to be like darling III



Well said.


----------



## ziaulislam

Now ofcourse its possible that HAL will lobby the darin project back online without upgrading the 60 years old underpower engine but we all know how that will pay off


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## Lord Of Gondor

ziaulislam said:


> *we *all know how that will pay off


Not really but obviously you have.
Pray tell us how.


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## airmarshal

India has to look at how pathetic its procurement process is. It has taken India to get 5 planes almost 13 years! If I recall, the request for proposal started in 2007.


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## Aliph Ahmed

It is really amusing to see how Indians are covering the news of 5 Rafael Planes landing in India.

It is almost as if 5 French Gods (Who have renounced their citicizenship and became Indians) have returned from participating and winning maha bharat. Lol.

Most funny is the fact that LCA which was compared to Rafael once upon a time is no where near Rafael. Kaheen nazar (Najar if you are an Indian) na lag jayay. lolllll.


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## ziaulislam

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Not really but obviously you have.
> Pray tell us how.


well, this is how I teach it to my new interns....keep it very simple..some still are boneheads
if you put new high power requirement avionics/radar to an ALREADY UNDERPOWERED JET..you will end with an ineffective lemon
the jaguars' engines are so old and underpowered that it is already pretty much a lemon(not car)


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## ziaulislam

"IAF pilots have a morbid joke among themselves that the Jaguar’s current engines are so underpowered that in case of one engine failing, the second takes the aircraft to the crash site, not back to safety".

https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-set...ade-could-buy-more-su-30-mkis-instead/278687/


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## ziaulislam

Aliph Ahmed said:


> It is really amusing to see how Indians are covering the news of 5 Rafael Planes landing in India.
> 
> It is almost as if 5 French Gods (Who have renounced their citicizenship and became Indians) have returned from participating and winning maha bharat. Lol.
> 
> Most funny is the fact that LCA which was compared to Rafael once upon a time is no where near Rafael. Kaheen nazar (Najar if you are an Indian) na lag jayay. lolllll.


F16 V outclasses rafale any day, the same is true for meteor against aim120D & PL15... albeit AMRAAMS have simply outmatched track record 
now can PAG get it or does PAF wants it is a separate question


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## Dustom999

Rafael are in India for quite some time.


----------



## ziaulislam

Aliph Ahmed said:


> It is really amusing to see how Indians are covering the news of 5 Rafael Planes landing in India.
> 
> It is almost as if 5 French Gods (Who have renounced their citicizenship and became Indians) have returned from participating and winning maha bharat. Lol.
> 
> Most funny is the fact that LCA which was compared to Rafael once upon a time is no where near Rafael. Kaheen nazar (Najar if you are an Indian) na lag jayay. lolllll.


rafale is 4.5 gen fighter just like the f16 V, gripen NG and j10C. raw specs-wise (thrust, weight MTOW) rafale and f16sb70 are almost identical 

one can argue that western manufacturers have better experience in avionics and radar software as they were the pioneers..if we go by that logic, the f16 fielded an AESA more than a decade ago..and agp 83 is probably the most superior of all the other 4.5 radars

how good the f16 is can be gauged by the fact that UAE didnt opt for rafale or typhoon and are very much content with their b60s

the downside is restrictions that come with f16s but if you can look past that it is without the doubt the best option


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## polanski

Rafale will have strategic advantage over Sukhoi fighters: Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2...ver-sukhoi-fighters-air-chief-marshal-dhanoa/


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## BON PLAN

vi-va said:


> F-35 is a serious threat, stealthy and situational awareness capability is very well. But maneuverability is just so so. Actually I do believe *maneuverability is not as important in BVR anymore*.



So Why F22 was made highly manoeuvrable? 
Why USAF choose F22 against F23 when F23 was better in supercruise and stealth but just slighly inferior in agility?
So Why F35 and F22 carry short range missile and internal canon (F22 case)?

In a high density conflict, the electronic environnement will be so hard, the number of plane in the air too important that it will be quite impossible to fire in BVR with a high pk and a low probability of friend fire : WVR will came back. Not with canon, but with 20 to 30km range missile. Why? To be sure to positively recognise the target before firing.


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## BON PLAN

ziaulislam said:


> how good the f16 is can be gauged by the fact that UAE didnt opt for rafale or typhoon and are very much content with their b60s


not really....
They sent Mirage 2000-9 against Lybia in 2011, not the so called fabulous F16-60.....


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## BON PLAN

ziaulislam said:


> "IAF pilots have a morbid joke among themselves that the Jaguar’s current engines are so underpowered that in case of one engine failing, the second takes the aircraft to the crash site, not back to safety".
> 
> https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-set...ade-could-buy-more-su-30-mkis-instead/278687/


It's possible.
The french Jaguar, with the 2 engine ON, needed regularly to add some reheat to regain speed with only 2 external tanks. On the sole dry thrust, it can't maintain it's energy. So with one engine OFF....


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## BON PLAN

ziaulislam said:


> F16 V outclasses rafale any day, the same is true for meteor against aim120D & PL15... albeit AMRAAMS have simply outmatched track record
> now can PAG get it or does PAF wants it is a separate question


LOL. big big LOL.

Rafale eat every F16. During the multi years different training sessions against F16, F15, F22, EF2000, SH18, Gripen, the sole hard nut for Rafale is F22. F16 is the second one, but not a match.

Sorry for you.


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## vi-va

BON PLAN said:


> So Why F22 was made highly manoeuvrable?
> Why USAF choose F22 against F23 when F23 was better in supercruise and stealth but just slighly inferior in agility?
> So Why F35 and F22 carry short range missile and internal canon (F22 case)?
> 
> In a high density conflict, the electronic environnement will be so hard, the number of plane in the air too important that it will be quite impossible to fire in BVR with a high pk and a low probability of friend fire : WVR will came back. Not with canon, but with 20 to 30km range missile. Why? To be sure to positively recognise the target before firing.


Time changed. In F22 design era 1980s(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-22_Raptor#Origins) , the Infrared Detector + Radar + AAM is not as powerful as today.

Nowadays, Radar can found none stealthy jet from 500 km away. Infrared Detector can found stealthy jet from 70km away. There is little to none chance of dog fight.

J-20 does NOT has Rotary Cannon, is it backward? Not at all. Time changed.


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## MirageBlue

The problem with moveable canards is that they'll move at angles that'll be not in the same plane as the rest of the airplane's wing surfaces. So, as the J-20 will maneuver and use it's canards to maneuver, the canards will act as large radar reflecting surfaces. Even if RAM treatment is applied to those canards, it is a FACT that canards are not a good idea if you want F-35 or F-22 level stealth.

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## MirageBlue

Feng Leng said:


> LOL Indians are so frustrated because their $300 million / airframe Rafales become worthless junk already



talk about rubbish, worthless drivel. And some people wonder why this forum has SO MANY totally rubbish posts versus useful, sensible posts.

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## BON PLAN

MirageBlue said:


> The problem with moveable canards is that they'll move at angles that'll be not in the same plane as the rest of the airplane's wing surfaces. So, as the J-20 will maneuver and use it's canards to maneuver, the canards will act as large radar reflecting surfaces. Even if RAM treatment is applied to those canards, it is a FACT that canards are not a good idea if you want F-35 or F-22 level stealth.


It's not the canard which is the problem. It is the problem with all small movable surface.

Increase the canard so as to match the tail of the F35 and you will have the same result.


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## BON PLAN

Feng Leng said:


> LOL Indians are so frustrated because their $300 million / airframe Rafales become worthless junk already


It is so strange to see chinese air force acquiring more and more non stealthy J10 .....

Remember me how many J20 are in the PL air force?

Remember me how many J31 are inducted?


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## ziaulislam

BON PLAN said:


> not really....
> They sent Mirage 2000-9 against Lybia in 2011, not the so called fabulous F16-60.....


ofcourse mirages are better suited agaist ground targets with guided weapons...ask what would they send against an adversary like Pakistan


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## ziaulislam

BON PLAN said:


> LOL. big big LOL.
> 
> Rafale eat every F16. During the multi years different training sessions against F16, F15, F22, EF2000, SH18, Gripen, the sole hard nut for Rafale is F22. F16 is the second one, but not a match.
> 
> Sorry for you.


yeah right..i also eat grass..what kind of BS is this
american were building AESA & fielding it on F16 when french had no idea what it is


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## ziaulislam

we saw first handed how upgrades mirages bugged out in feb 2019 due to "glitches" & being "outnumbered"..
i never believed that french equipment will be jammed but it happened and everyone saw it


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## Feng Leng

BON PLAN said:


> It is so strange to see chinese air force acquiring more and more non stealthy J10 .....
> 
> Remember me how many J20 are in the PL air force?
> 
> Remember me how many J31 are inducted?


Stealth fighters are very expensive and can't carry much payload. We don't need J-20 for an opponent like India. Of course we will continue to buy J-10C for the performance value and continue to buy J-16 for its payload.

There are less than 100 J-20s in the PLAAF. But now J-10B are being mass produced so this number is rising fast. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...r-may-arrive-soon-heres-what-it-could-include

There is no such nothing as J-31. There was an export oriented prototype called FC-31 that now has become the basis for the stealth carrier borne fighter jet.


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## BON PLAN

ziaulislam said:


> ofcourse mirages are better suited agaist ground targets with guided weapons...ask what would they send against an adversary like Pakistan


No. It's not a substantiated answer.
F16 are fully air to ground equipped. In UAE the two fleets can perform AtoA and AtoG tasks, but M2000 is faster and can clim higher than F16, so AtoA is mainly for M2000 and AtoG or A to sea missions mainly for F16.


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## BON PLAN

ziaulislam said:


> yeah right..i also eat grass..what kind of BS is this
> american were building AESA & fielding it on F16 when french had no idea what it is


Japan was the first country to serial equip a fighter with AESA.
Then USA
Then France. Not to bad for a country with 1/7 o the USA GDP ! And We earn a lot of experience with the PESA RBE2. So our AESA has more than 20 years of practice, data base and fine tuning behind it. 

It change nothing to the fact that F16 was a very nice plane, but a 70's plane. It is without a doubt smashed by the Rafale, even if it is difficult to accept from an average american.


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## BON PLAN

ziaulislam said:


> we saw first handed how upgrades mirages bugged out in feb 2019 due to "glitches" & being "outnumbered"..
> i never believed that french equipment will be jammed but it happened and everyone saw it


Absolutely no evidence. We even don't know if those Mirage flew with MICA...

In Lybia, 2011, we entered first in the airspace, BEFORE the US fired hundereds od cruise missile. No problem. The Lybian radars never saw the french birds.


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## BON PLAN

ziaulislam said:


> we saw first handed how upgrades mirages bugged out in feb 2019 due to "glitches" & being "outnumbered"..
> i never believed that french equipment will be jammed but it happened and everyone saw it


the sole F16 shooted down in an air engagement was fired by a greek M2000.... 
sorry Bro.


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## ziaulislam

BON PLAN said:


> the sole F16 shooted down in an air engagement was fired by a greek M2000....
> sorry Bro.


Yeah an unarmed f16..i know


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## cloyce

MirageBlue said:


> The problem with moveable canards is that they'll move at angles that'll be not in the same plane as the rest of the airplane's wing surfaces. So, as the J-20 will maneuver and use it's canards to maneuver, the canards will act as large radar reflecting surfaces. Even if RAM treatment is applied to those canards, it is a FACT that canards are not a good idea if you want F-35 or F-22 level stealth.



Here below is a 6th gen fighter concept from Boeing. As you can see it has canards.
If a canard plane can't be stealthy, Boeing would not even propose it.
If a canard plane can't be stealthy, Chengdu would have gone with a standard configuration instead. If they opted for canards it's because they've tested it.






Indian AF claimed that J-20 could be detected by Su-30 MKI.
It could be true, J-20 is not an all-aspect stealth plane like F-22. Its stealth is mostly frontal side focused for Air to Air combat. If a J-20 is returning to base, its non-stealthy engine nozzles will be pointed towards enemy radar, and that will make it easily detectable. But in a real combat scenario, there won't be any Su-30MKI left alive when J-20 returns to base.

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## Lord Of Gondor

cloyce said:


> But in a real combat scenario, there won't be any Su-30MKI left alive when J-20 returns to base.


Clearly the conscript CCP air force top brass failed to read your memo. Still busy building Su-30 variants instead of of Uber Han mighty China Stronkk J-20.


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## cloyce

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Clearly the conscript CCP air force top brass failed to read your memo. Still busy building Su-30 variants instead of of Uber Han mighty China Stronkk J-20.



By Su-30 cariants you mean J-16? Well they replace JH-7 and are still needed for any anti-ship or heavy bombing mission .
J-20 weapon bay is not big enough to accomodate anti-ship missiles or bunker busting bombs.
It's speculated that the future H-20 stealth heavy bomber, with a much bigger weapon bays, could do these"heavy works"

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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> not really....
> They sent Mirage 2000-9 against Lybia in 2011, not the so called fabulous F16-60.....



Wrong as usual ..

March 25, 2011 · 10:36 AM UTC
UAE Foreign Affairs Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed al-Nahayan said 12 warplanes,* including six F-16s and six Mirages*, would be dispatched to join operations, but only as “an extension” of its “humanitarian operations,” Al Jazeera reported.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2011-03-25/uae-sends-warplanes-libya-nato-takes-command


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## no smoking

BON PLAN said:


> It is so strange to see chinese air force acquiring more and more non stealthy J10 .....
> 
> Remember me how many J20 are in the PL air force?
> 
> Remember me how many J31 are inducted?



Or you should remember there are still 500-600 J7/J8s serving in China. Anyone with economic common sense would know how insane it is to replace all of them with J-20 or J-31 in short time.


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## congtubl

Welcome to Rafale came back India home.

But the paint on the tail maybe wrong









And the cover on the wings maybe moved (above on the 6th people from Right to left)


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## BON PLAN

ziaulislam said:


> Yeah an unarmed f16..i know


You are misinformed.

The fight was between 4 F4 Phantom and 2 F16 on the Turkish side, and 2 M2000 on the greek side.
The fight occured in the greek airspace.
The turkish planes didn't want to move away.
A dog fight follows.
M2000 take the advantage, and one shoot a old Magic 2 missile. Despite the flares and the manoeuvers, the F16 was hit. This F16 was driven by heavy trained pilots : a captain and a lt colonel. One died, the other was rescued by greece navy.

If you are non armed, you don't enter in a dog fight in a foreign airspace.

If the F16 is so agile, the internal gun is more than enough, isn't it?

Mirage 2000 : 1 / F16 : 0


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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> Wrong as usual ..
> 
> March 25, 2011 · 10:36 AM UTC
> UAE Foreign Affairs Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed al-Nahayan said 12 warplanes,* including six F-16s and six Mirages*, *would be* dispatched to join operations, but only as “an extension” of its “humanitarian operations,” Al Jazeera reported.
> 
> https://www.pri.org/stories/2011-03-25/uae-sends-warplanes-libya-nato-takes-command



would be.....

The sole able to fly over Lybia were M2000.
Why? because USA didn't accept the F16 to do so.


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## BON PLAN

cloyce said:


> Here below is a 6th gen fighter concept from Boeing. As you can see it has canards.
> If a canard plane can't be stealthy, Boeing would not even propose it.
> If a canard plane can't be stealthy, Chengdu would have gone with a standard configuration instead. If they opted for canards it's because they've tested it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian AF claimed that J-20 could be detected by Su-30 MKI.
> It could be true, J-20 is not an all-aspect stealth plane like F-22. Its stealth is mostly frontal side focused for Air to Air combat. If a J-20 is returning to base, its non-stealthy engine nozzles will be pointed towards enemy radar, and that will make it easily detectable. But in a real combat scenario, there won't be any Su-30MKI left alive when J-20 returns to base.


between a marketing pic and the reality, the gap may be huge....


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## Akasa

Remember when Iran unveiled the Qaher-313 and its defense minister claimed that it could give its adversaries a run for their money?

Yeah, this new claim by Air Chief Dhanoa is merely another rendition of that saga, just with a different set of characters.

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## BON PLAN

*Rafale is wreaking havoc in Libya, consuming Turkish forces like a great white eagle. And India will get it soon*

*India will have the enhanced ability to overpower the PLA Air Force*

2 weeks late news.

https://tfipost.com/2020/07/rafale-...great-white-eagle-and-india-will-get-it-soon/


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## cloyce

BON PLAN said:


> between a marketing pic and the reality, the gap may be huge....


Man, people do their tests before going on with a 100+ billion program. If canards are bad for stealth, Chengdu would have gone with conventional configuration.
Regarding Boeing, their 6th fighter concept promises to be more stealthy than F-22 because they will remove the vertical stabilizers. So, why ruin the superior stealth with canards if they are inherently unstealthy?
Besides, the flying tech-demo Boeing X-36 had canards (photo below) and are pretty stealthy, it is simply difficult to achive planform alignment on canards planes.


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## MirageBlue

congtubl said:


> Welcome to Rafale came back India home.
> 
> But the paint on the tail maybe wrong
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the cover on the wings maybe moved (above on the 6th people from Right to left)



All that the paint peeling on the Rafale DH tail indicates is that the airplane has already seen quite a lot of intensive flying. Which is natural, given that the first batch of IAF Rafale pilots are being trained on these twin seaters before they go solo on the Rafale. Nothing alarming about it at all. In fact, all airplanes periodically get paint chipped due to the incredible friction generated during flights.

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## MirageBlue

Simple fact is this - 

Stealth aircraft are stealthiest when their control surfaces (canards, elevons, elevators, whatever) are at 0 degrees positive or negative elevation. The incident radar waves have nothing to be reflected off of in that case.

But, these control surfaces are positioned depending on the airspeed, nowadays controlled automatically by the FCS. At high speeds, they need to be angled down, and at low speeds, they need to be slightly angled up. This is with reference to canards. Opposite positioning is true for elevators.

This angling reduces stealth.

Now, to be fair, this problem is the exact same with a fighter that has elevators instead of canards. But, one huge difference that makes a big dent in the RCS is that such a fighter has it’s wing in front of the tail controls. This means that the wing serves as a sort of shield against radar returns, meaning that stealth is far more similar across a wider range of air speeds. 

So any canards equipped fighter will see spikes of RCS as the canards deflect up or down, depending on the air speed. It's just plain physics. 

Showing pictures of prototypes that NEVER made it into production doesn't make one whit of a difference to physics. And no, physics won't change for China either.


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## MirageBlue

cloyce said:


> Here below is a 6th gen fighter concept from Boeing. As you can see it has canards.
> If a canard plane can't be stealthy, Boeing would not even propose it.
> If a canard plane can't be stealthy, Chengdu would have gone with a standard configuration instead. If they opted for canards it's because they've tested it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian AF claimed that J-20 could be detected by Su-30 MKI.
> It could be true, J-20 is not an all-aspect stealth plane like F-22. Its stealth is mostly frontal side focused for Air to Air combat. If a J-20 is returning to base, its non-stealthy engine nozzles will be pointed towards enemy radar, and that will make it easily detectable. But in a real combat scenario, there won't be any Su-30MKI left alive when J-20 returns to base.



In the case of this design that you're showing, guess what is the single biggest RCS contributor that is MISSING?!

The vertical stabilizers. 

The absence of vertical stabs will mean the single biggest RCS contributor is gone, leading to such a small RCS that even having canards will not be such a bad thing.

OTOH, the J-20 (which of course is known to be inspired based off the MiG-1.42 designs that were sold to China) has large vertical stabilizers as well as canards. 

But feel free to believe that an Air Chief Marshal who regularly gets briefings from technical staff at the IAF doesn't know what he's talking about.

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## MirageBlue

BON PLAN said:


> Absolutely no evidence. We even don't know if those Mirage flew with MICA...
> 
> In Lybia, 2011, we entered first in the airspace, BEFORE the US fired hundereds od cruise missile. No problem. The Lybian radars never saw the french birds.



All made up stuff from the PAF accounts. JF-17 Block Is that flew don't even have jamming equipment to jam Mirage-2000Is.


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## cloyce

MirageBlue said:


> In the case of this design that you're showing, guess what is the single biggest RCS contributor that is MISSING?!
> 
> The vertical stabilizers.
> 
> The absence of vertical stabs will mean the single biggest RCS contributor is gone, leading to such a small RCS that even having canards will not be such a bad thing.
> 
> OTOH, the J-20 (which of course is known to be inspired based off the MiG-1.42 designs that were sold to China) has large vertical stabilizers as well as canards.
> 
> But feel free to believe that an Air Chief Marshal who regularly gets briefings from technical staff at the IAF doesn't know what he's talking about.



Man, please re-read what you have written, your logic is flawed.

Anyway, following your logic, let's say the vertical stabilizer contributes 100 to RCS and canard contributes 10 to RCS.
The F-22 would have 100 RCS while J-20 would have 110. Making both aircraft comparable in RCS.
A future F-XX conventional fighter without vertical stabilizer VS future J-XX canard fighter without vertical stabilizer, would be F-XX having 0.00000001 RCS and J-XX having 10 RCS. It's like day and night!
If you cant fix the canard RCS problem, in a future 6th gen fighter the problem would be even more serious.


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## BON PLAN

*The Rand corporation report about the Lybian 2011 campaign : *

*The French Military Engagement *
The French engagement, labeled Opération Harmattan, started the air campaign, as Sarkozy announced to France’s partners during the Libya summit on March 19 that he had ordered a first strike on Libyan forces in the suburbs of Benghazi. It continued until the last day of Operation Unified Protector. Recent accounts point to a discreet but quite systematic French national ISR campaign focused on the coast of Libya in the preceding week using air, naval, and space assets to establish a more accurate order of battle of the Libyan forces and to assess their capabilities, in the logic of an intelligence preparation of the battlefield.9 Even though this campaign was executed under serious political constraints—the French feared an incident that would jeopardize the chances of a robust U.N. resolution—it allowed a national assessment of the status of Libyan forces and the planning of the initial French strikes. Even though it was relatively modest in size by U.S. standards, Operation Harmattan was nevertheless the largest engagement for the French Air Force and Navy at least since Kosovo. It actually was not modest for France at all when it came to the maximum operational contract given to the air force. At any given time, the French Air Force must be able to provide up to (and no more than) 70 combat aircraft in a coalition operation. But in addition to Libya, the French Air Force was already deployed in several other countries, including Afghanistan (with six combat aircraft), Chad (three aircraft), and the UAE (six aircraft). At the peak of the operation, with 39 combat aircraft engaged in Libya, the French Air Force almost reached its “operational contract” of 70 combat aircraft deployed in operations. Operation Harmattan primarily involved the air force, but the navy and army also contributed. As detailed below, the French took—together with the British—the largest share of strike missions and allowed the United States to withdraw the bulk of their combat assets fairly quickly and “lead from behind,” according to the famous phrase coined during the campaign. This was a very significant experience for the French forces, as they had not played such a central role in coalition operations in post–Cold War conflicts (Bosnia in 1995 came closest, at least on the ground with the Quick Reaction Force set up with London). During the 1991 Gulf War, the 1999 Kosovo campaign, or in Afghanistan since 2001, France always had taken a back seat to the United States in combat operations. This changed with Libya, as the non-U.S. members of the coalition were expected to produce the core military effect after the first few days.
Before entering into the details of the French engagement, two observations are worth noting. First, the Libyan campaign was not the Battle of Britain; it was a limited and successful air campaign conducted by a relatively small force confronting a rather modest adversary that was in no position to engage superior and more modern air forces. Second, the French, compared with many coalition partners, did have a preLibya experience of managing operations with their own command-and-control assets. Much of that experience came through a series of national engagements in Africa, some of which were quite demanding. 

Deployment and Command Structure 
France deployed military assets from the first day of operations on March 19 until the end of the NATO operation on October 31. Up to 4,300 servicemen and women were deployed as part of Operation Harmattan (the national operation retained its name after the launch of NATO’s Operation Unified Protector). Even though it was a primarily an air campaign, Operation Harmattan involved all three services. France conducted the first strikes in Libyan territory with air force planes that originally operated from French bases, but then flew mostly from La Suda in Crete and Sigonella in Sicily to reduce transit. The Aircraft Carrier Battle Group (GAN) also was quickly involved in operations over Libya from the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle; the first operational flight by naval Rafale M multirole fighters occurred as early as March 22; and the first strike carried out by Super Étendard strike aircraft took place the following day. Twenty-seven different ships were engaged for more than seven months to ensure continuity of maritime operations and control of sea and air space while conducting artillery strikes against land targets. With more than 1,500 days at sea, they allowed the deployment of a naval combat aircraft force, army attack helicopters, and air force helicopters dedicated to the recovery personnel in hostile territory. Aéronavale carrier aircraft accounted for 1,590 sorties (including 840 offensive sorties) from March 22 until August 12, roughly one-fourth of the French total. On May 18, the Army attack helicopter group (GAM), composed of 24 helicopters (20 Gazelles and 4 Tigres), went into action from the Mistral-class Projection and Command Ships (BPC) (Tonnerre followed by Mistral). At the peak of the crisis, France committed more than 40 aircraft, 30 helicopters, and a dozen warships. Air force and navy planes totaled nearly 5,600 sorties and more than 27,000 flight hours, achieving 25 percent of sorties by the coalition, 35 percent of offensive missions, and 20 percent of strikes. This represents nearly 3,100 offensive sorties, 1,200 reconnaissance sorties, 400 air defense sorties, and 340 air traffic control and 580 air-to-air refueling missions. The Army’s attack helicopter group conducted some 40 raids comprising more than 250 sorties.

The Choice of Bases 
Libya was a special case of power projection from a French perspective, as operations could be conducted from airfields in France. Several air bases in continental France did take part in the air campaign: Avord, Dijon, Istres-Le Tubé, Nancy-Ochey, and SaintDizier-Robinson. The base in Corsica, Solenzara, played an important role as France’s most southern military airfield. The first strikes were launched from air bases in northeastern France (carried out by Mirage 2000Ds from Nancy, and Rafales from Saint Dizier). But it proved extremely useful to progressively shift the main bases closer to Libya, first by making extensive use of Solenzara, and then by forward-deploying air assets to Sigonella in Sicily and La Suda on Crete. This saved significant transit time and enabled French combat aircraft to spend more time in actual combat missions. In this particular geographical context, the role of the aircraft carrier in the campaign was less important than it would have been in more distant engagements. Accordingly, after it played a significant role in the first months of the French engagement, the Charles de Gaulle was withdrawn from the operation.

The First Days of the Operation 
*France was the first coalition partner to strike, on March 19 at 6:00 p.m., a few hours before British and U.S. forces went into action.* This decision was taken for a series of reasons. It was, of course, Sarkozy’s highly political decision to demonstrate French resolve and take a leadership role. The fact that the strike was announced during the coalition senior-level meeting on Libya and took place immediately after the meeting maximized the political and media effects. The decision also was prompted by a sense of humanitarian emergency, as Qaddafi’s armored forces were closing on Benghazi. The choice of military targets in the ground forces encircling Benghazi was consistent with that concern. From a military perspective, this first strike did not go by the book according to standard U.S. practice, as SEAD operations or the confirmed destruction of Libyan airpower had not yet taken place. It was, therefore, a rather risky operation carried out successfully, and not merely a symbolic attack. It involved around 20 air force aircraft: eight multirole Rafales, two Mirage 2000-5s (for air superiority), two Mirage 2000Ds (for interdiction), six C-135FR tankers, and one E-3F AWACS, striking targets located some 1,500 kilometers from their bases. Four Libyan armored vehicles were reportedly destroyed during the mission, two by GBU-12 laser-guided bombs dropped by the Mirage 2000Ds and two by AASM guided weapons launched by Rafales. This was a rather small number by military standards, but it stopped the advance of Qaddafi’s leading forces at the outskirts of Benghazi and probably helped prevent a massacre in the city. Had Benghazi fallen, the outcome of the war could have been quite different. As such, this initial strike served a critical political and strategic purpose.
As Christian Anrig has noted, this attack could point at a difference in “ways of war”: 
Specifically, the United States musters overwhelming force to produce decisive results at the least cost of lives. In contrast, former European colonial powers have a history of fighting outgunned and outnumbered . . . This attitude is also reflected in the French air force’s initial strikes on 19 March 2011. Some commentators were quick to play down the risks involved, arguing that the French had identified a gap in the fixed-site air defense system, but the threat of mobile surface-to air missiles undoubtedly remained.
In their post-war assessment, the French point at this first strike to downplay their reliance on U.S. assets for SEAD. This assessment is correct for this particular raid, since no losses occurred. Libyan air defenses nonetheless identified the French raid and engaged it with an SA-8 surface-to-air missile system, which fortunately was out of range.12 It is, however, questionable that such a risky tactic would have worked for the whole campaign, as the French were probably not ready to take significant risks of aircraft losses. Therefore, this opening move might denote a divergence of operational habits. The French, like the British, are used to making do with less. Despite France’s early accomplishment, the first days of operations relied heavily on U.S. assets, especially ones that the French were unable to provide, including SEAD aircraft and Tomahawk cruise missiles that conducted deep strikes against critical infrastructure. (Of the 199 sea-launched cruise missiles fired in the first ten days, 192 were American and seven were British. None of the missiles were French, as the French naval equivalent, SCALP Naval, had yet to enter service.) Some have criticized this coalition show of force as unnecessary overkill, with the potential for negative political impact among Arab states in particular. In the first three days of Operation Odyssey Dawn, the French conducted about 55 sorties (slightly more than one-quarter of the grand total, with U.S. forces conducting the bulk of the operations).

Who’s in Charge?
Because the operation was swiftly launched, the command issue was not fully resolved when operations started. In the first three days, operations were primarily under national command. The JFACC in Ramstein focused on deconfliction among the three national U.S., UK, and French operations— Odyssey Dawn, Ellamy, and Harmattan. With a great deal of HQ work, operations evolved after a couple of days to a more integrated approach, allowing the JFACC to take a more classic command role involving “a hierarchy of objectives, distribution of tasks, daily generation of Air Tasking Orders (ATO) orchestrating the whole operation, [and] introduction of opportunity targeting.”13 During the first days of operations, according to Italian journalist David Cenciotti, the French still advocated a coalition-of-the-willing approach and seemed to “have clearly shown an interest to assume command of all air operations of Operation Odyssey Dawn while Italy threatened to cease supporting coalition planes on its airbases and close its airspace if NATO does not take over the unitary command of the air campaign, in clear contrast with the French position.”14 Jean-Christophe Notin’s detailed account confirms this.15 At the time, U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates was saying, “This isn’t a NATO mission. This is a mission in which the NATO machinery may be used for command and control.” The decision to move to NATO command was made on March 24, after France was put under intense pressure from allies (Britain, the United States, and Italy) to shift in that direction. The NATO structure was in place by March 31 with the formal launch of Operation Unified Protector and with JFC Naples taking over command. France only reluctantly endorsed this move, insisting that the operation should use NATO command assets without being placed under Alliance political control. France went along, but did not really get on board until it became clear that there were more forces engaged in the operation than NATO. France continued throughout the campaign to put the emphasis on the Contact Group as the prime forum for political consultations in the coalition. It is important to underscore General Bouchard’s role in the difficult but successful transition from Odyssey Dawn to Unified Protector, from Ramstein to Naples.

Operations 
As the campaign developed over seven months, it went through several distinct phases. Difficult transitions sometimes occurred, especially concerning C2. The first two to three days was the first phase, which actually was a collection of three independent national operations. The second phase was Operation Odyssey Dawn (OOD) under U.S. command, with other allies contributing significantly (France and the UK) or more modestly (Denmark, Norway, Canada, Qatar). During that first phase, U.S. airpower provided the bulk of all air missions and strikes. As coalition capabilities grew, the United States’ participation declined. Of the 1,990 coalition sorties during OOD,
AFRICOM reported that U.S. forces flew 1,206 sorties, including almost precisely half of the strike missions (463 out of 952).16 During that first phase, the French order of battle evolved. The BA 116 air base at Solenzara, Corsica, became the main forward operating base with the deployment of six of eight Rafales, eight Mirage 2000Ds, and six Mirage F-1CR reconnaissance fighters. Three Mirage 2000-5s started operating from Suda to conduct air-superiority missions with their counterparts from Qatar. The navy deployed the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle with its battle group of 14 Rafales and modernized Super Étendards and two E-2 Hawkeyes, expanding the potential number of sorties. French forces used many capabilities not previously employed in combat. The navy and the air force for the first time fired SCALP cruise missiles (the French version of the British Storm Shadow), with the first raid carried out jointly by the air force (Mirages and Rafales) and the navy (Rafales), firing a total of seven cruise missiles against Al-Joufra air base 250 kilometers into Libya in order to demonstrate there was no safe haven for pro-Qaddafi forces.17 French fighter-bombers also used an IR imagery version of the AASM-guided munition (Armement Air-Sol Modulaire, or modular air-to-surface armament, an all-weather stand-off PGM propelled by a rocket booster) that had not previously been used in Afghanistan. Libya also was France’s first opportunity to deploy new pods on the Rafale, with the Reco NG reconnaissance pod and the Damocles MP targeting pod seeing their first operational use.
After the NATO takeover, the United States withdrew most of its combat assets after April 4 in keeping with its unprecedented decision to play a more modest role. The pace of operations was markedly reduced after peaking in late March at 180 daily sorties. French and British forces suddenly were at the forefront and had to take over a larger share of combat missions with only a handful of partners; only Italy, Canada, Denmark, Norway, and Belgium then were engaged in strike missions, while others remained focused on enforcing the no-fly zone. The U.S. decision to “lead from behind” also showed the Europeans’ weaknesses. U.S. assets remained vital to the conduct of operations, as tankers and advanced ISTAR capabilities (including UAVs) proved indispensable to sustaining and continuing the operations, even at the slower pace that characterized the campaign after its initial days. The slow pace, combined with the fact that fewer deliberate targets appeared as regular Libyan forces became scattered and dismounted, significantly slowed down the number of sorties and strikes. Allies also had to adjust their forces to evolving Libyan tactics. France and the UK decided to deploy attack helicopters offshore to add a capability focused on targeted air support for the rebel forces engaged in ground combat. As far as France was concerned, Sarkozy decided on this deployment of army helicopters, which began on May 18, and started conducting daily raids from the Mistral-class BPC ships on June 3. This force of 24 helicopters combined four modern Tigres and 20 older Gazelles and successfully conducted more than 250 sorties in 37 raids. French helicopters destroyed 614 targets, including 400 vehicles, with coalition helicopters carrying out nearly 90 percent of strikes. The UK was the only other nation to employ attack helicopters; the imbalance with the British engagement can be explained by different tactics. British Apaches were used only to attack predesignated targets and did not engage in opportunity targeting. In complicated and demanding missions, the French helicopters were able to attack targets at close range that would have been too risky or to difficult to attack with fixed-wing combat aircraft, given NATO’s rules of engagement. French Army helicopters took real and significant risks and served an important purpose at a time when the operation seemed a bit stalled. The French prepared and promoted the engagement of attack helicopters early in the conflict as an additional tactic aimed at producing tactical effects on the ground. General Bouchard’s background as a helicopter pilot helped the French make a convincing case to NATO. Their engagement required careful planning, as the army Gazelle and Tigre attack helicopters were operating for the first time from a naval platform.18 Drastic security measures also were taken to limit as much as possible the risks for the crews, with air support and a combat search-and-rescue (CSAR) helicopter attached to each raid. Most of the targets destroyed were light vehicles (pickup trucks) that planes found more difficult to target, given the constraints imposed on altitude. These targets also were less important from a strategic standpoint compared to the heavy vehicles, the depots, and C2 that fixed-wing aircraft targeted. Helicopter operations nevertheless played an important tactical role in Brega and Misrata. For the air combat force, the French operation also evolved over time. Six Mirage 2000Ds were redeployed to Souda, which is 900 kilometers from Misrata versus the more than 1,200 kilometers from Solenzara. This redeployment reduced transit time and the need for refueling, and increased time on station in the theater, thus improving the force’s reactivity. The force could perform between 15 and 20 daily interdiction sorties, most often comprising mixed patrols of Rafales and Mirage 2000s or Rafales and Super Étendards, with three more counterair sorties by Mirage 2000-5s from Souda, supported by ten refueling sorties, air control (performed by AWACS or E-2), and reconnaissance (Mirage F-1CR or Rafale with Reco NG pod). When the mission of the Charles de Gaulle ended in August, air operations continued under the sole responsibility of the air force, whose updated force included six Mirage 2000Ns (the nuclear-capable version of Mirage 2000, which since the 1990s also has performed conventional missions), partially compensating for the withdrawal of French Navy aircraft. The French commitment remained altogether relatively modest in size, as the number of combat aircraft engaged in the Libyan theater never exceeded 39. As far as munitions were concerned, the French chief of staff said in a Senate hearing in October 2011 that 1,000 bombs, 600 missiles, 1,500 rockets, and thousands of various ammunition rounds were fired by early September. France did not face significant ammunition shortages and could manage with its stockpile throughout the seven months of operations. Finally, it is important to note that in many respects, the French experience in Libya was a joint experience. Beyond the role of the army attack helicopters, the naval interdiction mission, and the contribution of carrier-based aircraft, the navy also was directly involved in onshore operations. After May 4, French frigates used their guns to fire at land targets, something the French Navy had not done in decades. The navy altogether fired 3,000 100-mm and 76-mm rounds, which reportedly helped damage the morale of besieged anti-Qaddafi forces. Naval assets also were used as intelligence tools; the Rubis-class French nuclear attack submarine (SNA) is said to have performed a number of reconnaissance missions in Libyan waters

Military Lessons 
Two points have been rightfully highlighted. Air-to-air refueling capabilities were too limited to allow the coalition to conduct the operation without a massive U.S. involvement during the entire conflict. This point has been well taken, and France intends to accelerate the replacement of its aging KC-135 fleet. Conducted in conjunction with the national decision to acquire more modern tankers (Airbus MRTT), efforts are under way to work on a European acquisition of a fleet of modern tankers as a response to this particular shortfall. The French also have fully acknowledged shortfalls in the area of ISR. They plan to procure jointly with the UK a new generation of medium-altitude, long-endurance (MALE) UAVs. The French also joined with the United States in a cooperative initiative to improve NATO’s ISR in the preparation for the NATO Chicago summit in 2012. The initiative will go beyond the acquisition of the Air Ground Surveillance (AGS) system, as it will build a NATO ISR capability in Sigonella that is able to use all ISR assets of NATO nations beyond the AGS itself. Libya also has led to debates about the need for more long-range deep-strike capabilities, as the lack of French participation in the first days’ sea-launched cruise missile campaign underscored. Tactically, the value of precision munitions such as the British Brimstone has been highlighted as well. In spite of severe financial constraints, many of these lessons learned should have an impact on the decisions to come in the next procurement bill covering the years 2014 to 2019. The fact remains that military planning across Europe has for decades been built on the assumption that the United States would perform some functions and would provide some key enablers. Based on this assumption, all European governments, including those that have preserved a small but more or less full-spectrum force (France and the UK) have capability gaps that Libya highlighted. Besides those already mentioned, SEAD and CAS come to mind as far as airpower is involved. There is a legitimate pride in France about the positive outcome of the Libya campaign. Even though NATO’s use of force was quite restrained, NATO forces achieved their political objectives through an air campaign that caused very limited collateral damage. Even with the United States only “leading from behind,” the operation demonstrated that Western military power still was able to deliver and did not have to put boots on the ground (except for a very limited number of special forces) to do so. Having taken a significant part in this effort, France deserves its share of this success, especially as far as the high readiness of its forces was concerned. The key issue for the future is the ability of Europeans to deliver budgets allowing the preservation of significant military capabilities in key European countries. This should not be taken for granted, given the deepening of the economic crisis in Europe and the fiscal constraints associated with it. With respect to command and control, it surprised many French officials that all other allies (excluding the United States, but including the UK) were not really in a position to engage in an operation without NATO’s support for planning and commanding the operation. This dependence on NATO’s military structure surprised the French military, which has preserved a strategic culture of autonomy if and when necessary. For their part, the French were only just coming back into NATO’s integrated military structure after the 2009 Sarkozy decision to do so, and will have to reinvest in NATO to gain a better understanding of NATO’s procedures and culture.

Political-Military Lessons 
In spite of its reluctance to act through NATO, France now recognizes that the Alliance performed reasonably well as a military structure and proved altogether useful from a military standpoint. It was noticeably successful in integrating non-NATO allies in operations. From a French perspective, some important political-military issues remain to be addressed for the future of the Alliance. First, the Alliance was, initially, not united and had a hard time finding a common position. A major ally (Germany) abstained on UNSCR 1973 and was not only reluctant to use force but not ready to allow the use of force for a mission combining a sound legal basis, a serious security challenge in the vicinity of Europe, and a good moral and political case. Strong political divisions existed on the Libyan crisis within the Alliance and were never completely ironed out. Second, the military contribution of NATO allies was unequal. Some did not take part in OUP (Germany, Central Europeans, and the Baltic States). Only a handful (eight of 28) took an active part in the strikes (United States, Britain, France, Italy, Belgium, Canada, Norway, Denmark), while others took part in OUP but limited their commitments to naval operations or enforcement of the no-fly zone. This tendency of some nations carrying the bulk of the effort while others abstain is damaging to the Alliance over the long term. Moreover, this proves the limits of specialization within the Alliance. How can allies rely on unreliable partners for key capabilities when they could decline to participate in a military engagement? An essential lesson is to be learned, especially at the present time, when the “smart defense” narrative at times insists on such specialization as a way to address European capability shortfalls. Third, the American choice to lead from behind also came as a shock to many Europeans. All previous major NATO operations, such as Bosnia, Kosovo, and Afghanistan, saw the United States taking the lead and providing the bulk of forces. The Libyan case is a challenge to the European allies (and Canada) as it could open a new era in which U.S. leadership in the management of a crisis should not be taken for granted. If Libya signals the way of the future for U.S. leadership, Europeans would consider it a major change. It does question directly the ability of the Europeans to act on their own or with limited U.S. support to address security challenges and crises. The issue could shift from the challenges of interoperability with U.S. forces to the need to be able to act alone. If confirmed, this would dramatically alter the capability requirements for the Europeans, and also could have very significant political implications for NATO and the EU. Finally, the limited U.S. engagement partially explains the length of the conflict. It led the coalition to pursue a longer and more constrained air campaign than what originally was expected and planned. Many rightfully suggest that a full-fledged U.S. commitment probably could have shortened the duration of the conflict by achieving decisive results earlier. Other constraints, such as carefully avoiding collateral damage or allowing the NTC to better organize its ground forces, nevertheless suggest that the conduct of operations and the final outcome might not have been that different.

Libya and the Future of Warfare: A Model for Future Conflicts? 
A year after the campaign was completed in Libya, many seemed to have forgotten the operation and the lessons learned from the conflict. The 2012 Chicago summit could have been an opportunity to take stock of a successful NATO operation, but the emphasis was put on ongoing operations, starting with Afghanistan. It is, nevertheless, worthwhile to explore some of the important positive future lessons learned: • Airpower allowed achieving the political objectives that UNSCR 1973 assigned without losses on the Alliance side and with very limited collateral damage from the operation itself (as the U.N. and Amnesty International acknowledged). However, the human costs and consequences of seven months of civil war should not be underestimated. • The operation proved to be relatively affordable despite budget constraints, certainly compared to Afghanistan but also relative to its effects, and was conducted in a relatively short time frame. It thus met the challenges associated with “war fatigue” in Western democracies, the growing aversion to casualties, boots on the ground, and high financial costs. • A long-term and difficult engagement on the ground in Libyan territory was avoided (and even prohibited under UNSCR 1973). This military constraint restricted options, but ultimately led to choosing a less ambitious and demanding path, which presumably took longer but ultimately was successful. The lack of direct control over Libyan territory also had some significant disadvantages, with the difficult stabilization of post-war Libya and the spread of light weapons to the Sahel having a negative impact on the region’s stability. Several years after the end of NATO operations, the final assessment is now darker. It is, however, not clear that a more classic land operation (had such an operation been allowed) would have been much more successful in addressing these complex side effects of regime change in Libya. • Western military superiority can still make the difference. A limited use of airpower had a decisive effect and not only allowed the operation to address ahumanitarian crisis associated with the logic of “responsibility to protect,” but allowed regime change after 42 years of Qaddafi to take place. • NATO taking the lead of an operation involving regional partners with a U.N. mandate was a politically sound approach. This has led NATO to put a new emphasis on partnerships, as the ability to act with non-NATO partners was politically essential and militarily useful. • Intense cooperation among the air forces of key partners (United States, Britain, and France in particular) proved to be extremely useful during the campaign. Can the Libyan model be applied elsewhere? From a political perspective, the conditions were unique and will be difficult to reproduce, as proven by difficult debates about Syria in the UNSC in 2012 and 2013. From a military standpoint, and given the war fatigue in many Western societies, this approach combining local allies and airpower might have more traction than protracted land wars. It is also important to note that ongoing budget cuts in Europe could have a significant effect on the ability of Europeans to conduct such an operation in the future, as it seems that not only the reduction of capability shortfalls will become more difficult, but that European allies might well scrap some capabilities that proved useful in Libya. Although no conflict is ever replayed in the future, the operations in Libya certainly could serve as a model for a variety of future contingencies. It was, in any case, a major experience for France as it allowed the country to successfully test a generation of new equipment. President Sarkozy’s political choice to move to the forefront of the international debate was backed by the more-than-significant commitment of French forces, with airpower playing the major role.

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR676.html

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## BON PLAN

cloyce said:


> Man, people do their tests before going on with a 100+ billion program. If canards are bad for stealth, Chengdu would have gone with conventional configuration.
> Regarding Boeing, their 6th fighter concept promises to be more stealthy than F-22 because they will remove the vertical stabilizers. So, why ruin the superior stealth with canards if they are inherently unstealthy?
> Besides, the flying tech-demo Boeing X-36 had canards (photo below) and are pretty stealthy, it is simply difficult to achive planform alignment on canards planes.


I'm all but not a specialist in Maxwell equation, but some said me that the main problem with canards (about stealth) is their small size.
On the X36 they seems quite big, and perfectly aligned with the other wings planform. Probably a solution.


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## BON PLAN

cloyce said:


> Man, please re-read what you have written, your logic is flawed.
> 
> Anyway, following your logic, let's say the vertical stabilizer contributes 100 to RCS and canard contributes 10 to RCS.
> The F-22 would have 100 RCS while J-20 would have 110. Making both aircraft comparable in RCS.
> A future F-XX conventional fighter without vertical stabilizer VS future J-XX canard fighter without vertical stabilizer, would be F-XX having 0.00000001 RCS and J-XX having 10 RCS. It's like day and night!
> If you cant fix the canard RCS problem, in a future 6th gen fighter the problem would be even more serious.


The J20 canards (as Rafale, EF and Gripen ones) are not fully aligned with the main wings planform ! the canards contribution to RCS may be higher than expected.


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## cloyce

BON PLAN said:


> I'm all but not a specialist in Maxwell equation, but some said me that the main problem with canards (about stealth) is their small size.
> On the X36 they seems quite big, and perfectly aligned with the other wings planform. Probably a solution.


No



BON PLAN said:


> The J20 canards (as Rafale, EF and Gripen ones) are not fully aligned with the main wings planform ! the canards contribution to RCS may be higher than expected.









By eyeballing, the frontal side looks aligned.(Orange) The problem is the rear side.(green)
But just like I said, the J-20 stealth is mostly frontal side focused. It can be easily detected from the rear, mostly because of engine nozzle.


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## BON PLAN

cloyce said:


> No
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By eyeballing, the frontal side looks aligned.(Orange) The problem is the rear side.(green)
> But just like I said, the J-20 stealth is mostly frontal side focused. It can be easily detected from the rear.



The leading edge is align in one dimension. Not in the other !








And the trailing edge....


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## cloyce

BON PLAN said:


> The leading edge is align in one dimension. Not in the other !
> View attachment 659357
> 
> View attachment 659358
> 
> And the trailing edge....


I cant understand what you mean. Please explain better. Maybe using the top view photo and the production plane not the tech demostrator.

By Planform alignment, I mean this :




As you can see, the colored lines in the F-22 are PARALLEL, while those of Typhoon are not parallel/aligned


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## MirageBlue

cloyce said:


> I cant understand what you mean. Please explain better. Maybe using the top view photo and the production plane not the tech demostrator.
> 
> By Planform alignment, I mean this :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, the colored lines in the F-22 are PARALLEL, while those of Typhoon are not parallel/aligned



It's obvious what Bon Plan wrote. You're looking at it in 2 dimensions (from the top view) to claim that ah, look the front edges of the canards and wings are aligned. But the rear edges of the canards and wings are not aligned, which is not good for reducing RCS.

Bon Plan is looking at it in the front view- the canards are nowhere near being in the same plane as the wings. They are canted upwards even when they are not deflecting up or down.

And on a huge fighter like the J-20, those canards are pretty massive surfaces. Ergo, one would expect rather large RCS returns compared to say a F-22 or F-35.

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## cloyce

MirageBlue said:


> It's obvious what Bon Plan wrote. You're looking at it in 2 dimensions (from the top view) to claim that ah, look the front edges of the canards and wings are aligned. But the* rear edges *of the canards and wings are not aligned, which is not good for reducing RCS.


Just as I said, the rear stealth of J-20 is not good



MirageBlue said:


> Bon Plan is looking at it in the front view- the canards are nowhere near being in the same plane as the wings. They are *canted upwards* even when they are not deflecting up or down.


It doesn't matter, the picture I posted that compare F-22 and Typhoon share the same situation.
Typhoon has canted canards too.



MirageBlue said:


> And on a huge fighter like the J-20, those canards are pretty massive surfaces. Ergo, one would expect rather large RCS returns compared to say a F-22 or F-35.


Oh come on, let's put an end to the narrative canards = bad stealth.
The 2 main reason canards could be potentially bad for stealth are :
1) the gap between the canards and fuselage.
2) the reflection between the canard and main wings.

Lets tackle the first problem :




The picture above is an recent variant of J-10. Do you see the protrusion just in front of the canard? (red arrow)
Well, that protrusion shield the gap between canard and fuselage. Early version of J-10, doesn't have that

The same feature is present on Rafale and later versions of Gripen. (pic below, red arrow)





Now here is how J-20 deals with the problem :




As you can see, the profile of the air intakes are not straight (green), but is shaped to shield the already mentioned gap (orange).

Now, lets tackle the second problem :
J-20's canard posture is controlled via software to minimize RCS just like Typhoon.

When J-20 enters an hostile airspace, it activates the "stealth posture" by limiting the canards movement.
In other words, J-20 will change heading and altitude mostly by just moving the main wing surfaces.
The downside is that this posture prevents J-20 from doing extreme maneuver.

The "stealth posture" will be deactivated in 2 situations :
a) When it enters WVR dogfights
b) When it tries to dodge incoming missiles.

In both cases the stealthyness is no more important.

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## BON PLAN

cloyce said:


> The picture above is an recent variant of J-10. Do you see the protrusion just in front of the canard? (red arrow)
> Well, that protrusion shield the gap between canard and fuselage. Early version of J-10, doesn't have that
> 
> The same feature is present on Rafale and later versions of Gripen. (pic below, red arrow)


No. These protrusions are used for a electronic counter measures items.

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## BON PLAN

cloyce said:


> J-20's canard posture is controlled via software to minimize RCS just like Typhoon.
> 
> When J-20 enters an hostile airspace, it activates the "stealth posture" by limiting the canards movement.
> In other words, J-20 will change heading and altitude mostly by just moving the main wing surfaces.
> The downside is that this posture prevents J-20 from doing extreme maneuver.


I don't think so. The FBW system has full autorities. I'm quite sure.


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## cloyce

The protrusion should have a dual purpose. Why place it exactly there, in front of the canard? And I cant see otherwise why J20 has a such complex air intake shape.
By the way, Typhoon has FADEC too (Full Authority Digital Engine Control). By logic, there is no conflict between FADEC and a FBW that adjust canards by software.


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## cloyce

Oh, I forgot to mention a thing. Please see the picture below






The early version of J-10 doesn't have a protrusion in front of the canards but they still have their passive EW antenna in the point indicated by the red arrow.
In recent versions of J-10, this antenna has been moved in front of canards. So, why exactly there?
It's not for aerodynamic reason (actually it disturbs the airflow over the canards IMHO) but for gaining a little bit of stealth.


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## MirageBlue

cloyce said:


> The protrusion should have a dual purpose. Why place it exactly there, in front of the canard? And I cant see otherwise why J20 has a such complex air intake shape.
> By the way, Typhoon has FADEC too (Full Authority Digital Engine Control). By logic, there is no conflict between FADEC and a FBW that adjust canards by software.



All speculation, pure and simple. It is more likely to be an aerodynamic feature, along with the fact that it gives a prominent location for sensors to be fit, without the issue of airframe masking.

And NO, FCS doesn't adjust canards for RCS. That's pure BS. FCS only cares about one thing- optimizing the use of surfaces to allow the best possible aerodynamics while ensuring that the airplane doesn't depart controlled flight or exceed airframe stresses.


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## cloyce

MirageBlue said:


> All speculation, pure and simple. It is more likely to be an aerodynamic feature, along with the fact that it gives a prominent location for sensors to be fit, without the issue of airframe masking.


Sometimes, when searching info about chinese stuff, chinese websites are better than american ones.
Baidu better than Google
Baike better than Wikipedia
*Zhihu* better than Yahoo answer
ect...

Here is what I found on Zhihu (The chinese Yahoo answer):
https://www.zhihu.com/question/329645523





*The purple-box guy asked* :
歼－10鸭翼前面的小凸起是什么?
_Whats the protrusion in front of the J-10 canards?_

*The orange-box guy answered* :
是电子战系统的被动天线鼓包。这个系统在歼-10A和S上位于座舱侧下方，而在歼-10B上，可能是考虑到了遮蔽鸭翼RCS，与*阵风*的设计类似。
_Is the passive antenna of the electronic warfare suite, on J-10A and J-10S this system is placed under the cabin and in lateral position, on J-10B and higher, probably *for covering the canards RCS, they adopted a similar design to Rafale*_(阵风).

Usually the people who answer questions on Zhihu are competent.

If you doubt my translation, feel free to check it with Google Translate(use CHN to ENG), it's never perfect but it gives a general idea of whats written.




MirageBlue said:


> And NO, FCS doesn't adjust canards for RCS. That's pure BS. FCS only cares about one thing- optimizing the use of surfaces to allow the best possible aerodynamics while ensuring that the airplane doesn't depart controlled flight or exceed airframe stresses.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon
_While canards generally have poor stealth characteristics from side because of corner to hull,[81] the flight control system is designed to maintain the elevon trim and *canards at an angle at which they have the smallest RCS*.[82]_


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## 21st Century Vampire

Mighty Lion said:


> It never progressed beyond prototype stage because of poor *design* and *capability* .



First of all that's irrelevant, the point was it retained good stealth with canards despite being a prototype. Secondly your statement is untrue because nowhere were your reasons stated in the reports and nobody would ever logically come to this conclusion after reading the reports at the end stage of the prototype, factually speaking *every* project criteria was officially met capability-wise especially in terms of stealth and it's intentional unconventional design (the lack of tail is compensated by the aileron and canard mechanisms) complimented it's excellent maneuverability (especially at 35° AOA), lower drag, and stability so you're blatantly wrong on that one or you simply made that up. One potential reason given is that it was discontinued due to being potentially too expensive in the future.



Mighty Lion said:


> Wrong again, canards of all characteristics will cause a spike in frontal RCS relative to a configuration without canards



He never denied that nor does it take much head scratching to understand how it works, if built for stealth it will be stealthier than other canards thus adding less to the RCS, simply compare the Rafale (despite having canards) to some Falcons and Mirages


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## ziaulislam

cloyce said:


> Here below is a 6th gen fighter concept from Boeing. As you can see it has canards.
> If a canard plane can't be stealthy, Boeing would not even propose it.
> If a canard plane can't be stealthy, Chengdu would have gone with a standard configuration instead. If they opted for canards it's because they've tested it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian AF claimed that J-20 could be detected by Su-30 MKI.
> It could be true, J-20 is not an all-aspect stealth plane like F-22. Its stealth is mostly frontal side focused for Air to Air combat. If a J-20 is returning to base, its non-stealthy engine nozzles will be pointed towards enemy radar, and that will make it easily detectable. But in a real combat scenario, there won't be any Su-30MKI left alive when J-20 returns to base.


You are wasting your time
Logic doesnt work here


----------



## BON PLAN

Last news rumored in France : Greece to acquire French brand new frigates and second hand Rafale in september....


----------



## INDIAPOSITIVE




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## MirageBlue

BON PLAN said:


> Last news rumored in France : Greece to acquire French brand new frigates and second hand Rafale in september....



Second hand Rafales? from France? I didn't know that France was looking to sell Rafales.


----------



## BON PLAN

MirageBlue said:


> Second hand Rafales? from France? I didn't know that France was looking to sell Rafales.


Maybe as few as 6 - 8 units.
It is a move to help Greece in a hurry, and pave the way for a more consistant purchase of new ones.


----------



## BON PLAN

BON PLAN said:


> Maybe as few as 6 - 8 units.
> It is a move to help Greece in a hurry, and pave the way for a more consistant purchase of new ones.


a "source"....









__





La Grèce souhaiterait acquérir 12 avions Rafale – Meta-Defense.fr







www.meta-defense.fr


----------



## BON PLAN

Licence to make, licence to kill


No fighter plane has come in with a bigger bang than the Rafale. TV anchors and




www.theweek.in


----------



## BON PLAN

*Greece to Buy 10 Rafale Jets, Receive 8 More as ‘Donation’ from France*






__





Defense World


View News at Defense World




www.defenseworld.net






« The eight planes that will be given as a “gift” are used jets from French Air Force inventory. These are the ones that attacked the Al Watiya air base in Libya a couple of months ago causing damage to Turkish air defence systems, the publication reported. »

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## MirageBlue

While I am hopeful that Greece goes ahead and orders Rafales with Meteors, I don't believe the contract has been signed as yet. 

Day after tomorrow is the induction ceremony for the Rafale with the No.17 'Golden Arrows' squadron. French Defence Minister is expected to arrive for it as well. Hopefully there'll be talks on additional Rafale acquisitions.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## polanski

Indian female pilot to fly Rafale jet: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/09/22/iaf-female-pilot-to-fly-rafale-jet/


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## BON PLAN

https://www.ilmailuliitto.fi/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/rafale_finlande_13x18_1219_pap_v7.pdf



Definitively : frame life = 9000 hours


----------



## Ali_Baba

polanski said:


> Indian female pilot to fly Rafale jet: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/09/22/iaf-female-pilot-to-fly-rafale-jet/



She will have the record of the first female to be shot down in modern aerial combat. One for the record books for sure. She will make the IAF proud for sure.

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## Trango Towers

Ali_Baba said:


> She will have the record of the first female to be shot down in modern aerial combat. One for the record books for sure. She will make the IAF proud for sure.


Tea and movie. Bollywood is made for this


----------



## MirageBlue

Ali_Baba said:


> She will have the record of the first female to be shot down in modern aerial combat. One for the record books for sure. She will make the IAF proud for sure.



Like this one made PAF proud?


*Pakistan female fighter pilot Marium Mukhtiar mourned after crash*

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## PDF

MirageBlue said:


> Like this one made PAF proud?
> 
> *Pakistan female fighter pilot Marium Mukhtiar mourned after crash*


You are comparing a training sortie incident with a fighter pilot being shot down in combat? 
Poor taste man.

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## truthseeker2010

polanski said:


> Indian female pilot to fly Rafale jet: https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2020/09/22/iaf-female-pilot-to-fly-rafale-jet/





Ali_Baba said:


> She will have the record of the first female to be shot down in modern aerial combat. One for the record books for sure. She will make the IAF proud for sure.





Trango Towers said:


> Tea and movie. Bollywood is made for this





MirageBlue said:


> Like this one made PAF proud?





PDF said:


> You are comparing a training sortie incident with a fighter pilot being shot down in combat?
> Poor taste man.



Her name: Flt Lt Shivangi Singh 
Her Instructor: Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman 

Yes you heard it right, the tea guy was her instructor of Mig-21. 

The rest i will leave it you guys and of course the PAF!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## MirageBlue

PDF said:


> You are comparing a training sortie incident with a fighter pilot being shot down in combat?
> Poor taste man.


There have been enough numbers of PAF pilots shot down in combat as well. You guys make it out like it's the only instance in the sub-continent. 

PAF has even managed to shoot down it's OWN pilot in combat, that too on an F-16. 

As for some of the sexist comments made on this thread regarding a female IAF pilot, not surprising given the nature of this forum. Clearly anything goes, as long as it's targeted at Indians.


----------



## Trango Towers

MirageBlue said:


> There have been enough numbers of PAF pilots shot down in combat as well. You guys make it out like it's the only instance in the sub-continent.
> 
> PAF has even managed to shoot down it's OWN pilot in combat, that too on an F-16.
> 
> As for some of the sexist comments made on this thread regarding a female IAF pilot, not surprising given the nature of this forum. Clearly anything goes, as long as it's targeted at Indians.


You can leave if you don't like it. Go to Indian forum and see how good that is


----------



## Deino

Oh come on guys ... can't you leave these BS comments!?? 

By the way ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1313305438209810432


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## BON PLAN

*PAF Air Marshal (chancellor of PAFs Air university) is worried that IAF Rafales will strike multiple targets inside Pakistan in the near future and will penetrate deep into Pak airspace *


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1315182334719614982


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## Yasser76

Yup, sombre assement and urging PAF to take note. Compare this to "We can beat everyone" statement's that IAF chef makes every two weeks and you find out why one side is always better prepared than the other....


----------



## Ali_Baba

World War 3 fears EXPLODE - Pakistan warns India is planning attack


PAKISTAN has said India is planning a military operation just a few weeks after New Delhi introduced new fighter jets into its Air Force.




www.express.co.uk





*World War 3 fears EXPLODE - Pakistan warns India is planning attack with new fighter jets*

PAKISTAN has said India is planning a military operation just a few weeks after New Delhi introduced new fighter jets into its Air Force.
By Manon Dark
PUBLISHED: 02:11, Mon, Oct 12, 2020 | UPDATED: 02:11, Mon, Oct 12, 2020

Pakistan’s Air Force Marshal, Mujahid Anwar Khan, claimed India is planning an offensive in an attempt to spread conflict. He expressed his fears while speaking at the Centre for Aerospace and Security Studies in Pakistan.

Mr Khan said that Indian forces will come within 5 kilometres to prove their dominance in the air.

He added that India will attempt to inflect “conflict beyond Kashmir and at international border”.

The Air Marshal said: "I would imagine India offensive in 18-24 months.

“As it received a sizeable number meteor equipped Rafale from France.

“Only this time she will enter deeper than 5 kilometres and engage multiple targets to stamp its superiority in the aerospace domain.

“I imagine India's willingness to spread the conflict in the air beyond Kashmir and possibly at the international border."

Mr Khan’s statement comes just a few days after Indian Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria told a press conference about the induction of the new fighter jets.

India introduced the new Rafale jets into its Air Force earlier this month.

The Indian Air Chief Marshal said the country was ready to handle a possible two-front war with China and Pakistan.

He said: "The integration of Rafales brings in a platform which is way ahead and would give us an edge and capability to strike first and deep.

"Indian Air Force is ready for any possible conflict including a two-front war.”

He added: "Our position as a credible combat-ready force is vital, given the role Air Force will play towards ensuring victory in any future conflict.

“The emerging threat scenario in our neighbourhood and beyond mandates need to have a robust capability to fight across the entire spectrum of warfare.

“I can share with you with confidence that operationally, we are amongst the best."

Mr Bhadauria also spoke about India’s ongoing standoff with China.

He said: "The talks towards disengagement, followed by de-escalation, are on. We hope that the talks will progress along the lines that are expected."

Mr Bhadauria also insisted that the Indian Air Force is “well-positioned” for any conflict.Last year, Pakistan said it shot down two Indian military jets in an attack over Kashmir.

The two sides both claim the whole of Kashmir as its territory but only control parts of it.

The aerial attacks across the border in Kashmir were the first since a war in 1971.

Last year, India formally divided the state of Jammu and Kashmir into two federally-administered territories.

It was part of a move to tighten India’s control over the part of Kashmir it controls.

Reactions: Wow Wow:
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## Dark1

Indian Air Force to get a big Rafale boost, 16 fighters to land by April


Five Rafale jets flew to the Ambala airbase via Abu Dhabi on July 29. Three more are landing in Ambala air base on November 5, three will arrive in January, another three in March and seven in April, taking the total number of fighters handed over to the IAF to 21 single-seat fighters and seven...




m.hindustantimes.com




*Indian Air Force to get a big Rafale boost, 16 fighters to land by April*
*Five Rafale jets flew to the Ambala airbase via Abu Dhabi on July 29. Three more are landing in Ambala air base on November 5, three will arrive in January, another three in March and seven in April, taking the total number of fighters handed over to the IAF to 21 single-seat fighters and seven twin-seat trainer fighters.*
Updated: Oct 28, 2020, 14:47 IST
By Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times New Delhi




Five Rafale jets flew to the Ambala airbase via Abu Dhabi on July 29 (Dassault aviation)
The Indian Air Force’s strike capability is set for a boost with 16 omni-role Rafale jet fighters to be inducted into the Golden Arrows squadron by April 2021 and with France’s biggest jet engine maker Safran ready to make fighter engines and ancillaries in India, people familiar with the matter said on Tuesday.
Five Rafale jets flew to the Ambala airbase via Abu Dhabi on July 29 and have already been inducted into the IAF’s Squadron 17. The next batch of three Rafales will arrive in Ambala on November 5 directly from the Bordeaux-Merignac facility (there will be no stop as they will be fuelled mid-air), according to senior government officials. Seven Rafale fighters are already being used for IAF fighter pilot training in France.
Three more Rafales will arrive in January, another three in March and seven in April, taking the total number of fighters handed over to the IAF to 21 single-seat fighters and seven twin-seat trainer fighters. This means that by April next year, the Golden Arrows squadron will be complete with 18 fighters and the remaining three can be sent to the Hashimara airbase in north Bengal’s Alipurduar to counter the threat posed by China on the eastern front. All the fighters are equipped with Mica and Meteor air-to-air missiles along with Scalp air-to-ground cruise missiles. India has now requested Safran for the air-to-ground modular weapon known as Hammer with a 250kg warhead."

Interesting next 6 months on both the pakistan and Tibetan borders.


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## air marshal

Indian Rafale jets Induction in IAF


----------



## Microsoft

PDF said:


> You are comparing a training sortie incident with a fighter pilot being shot down in combat?
> Poor taste man.



An Indian talking about a woman and its not poor taste? Please tag me when that happens.


MirageBlue said:


> There have been enough numbers of PAF pilots shot down in combat as well. You guys make it out like it's the only instance in the sub-continent.
> 
> PAF has even managed to shoot down it's OWN pilot in combat, that too on an F-16.
> 
> As for some of the sexist comments made on this thread regarding a female IAF pilot, not surprising given the nature of this forum. Clearly anything goes, as long as it's targeted at Indians.



Have a peek at what happened when Indians shot down their own heli:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1100753242995204096
Has the blackbox been found yet? Perhaps that's where the evidence of the heli shooting down the F-16 is.


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## air marshal




----------



## BON PLAN

On Rafale and deadly Panther choppers, India gets a huge offer from France


France has accepted the Indian request that defence technologies shared with the Indian military should not be given to New Delhi’s adversaries. France’s relationship has already reached a new low with Pakistan after PM Imran Khan attacked President Macron.




www.hindustantimes.com




*On Rafale and deadly Panther choppers, India gets a huge offer from France*

France has accepted the Indian request that defence technologies shared with the Indian military should not be given to New Delhi’s adversaries. France’s relationship has already reached a new low with Pakistan after PM Imran Khan attacked President Macron.

India and France have decided to intensify defence cooperation with Paris offering to shift 100 per cent assembly line for Panther medium utility helicopters as well as 70 per cent of the assembly line for Rafale fighters under “Make in India” rubric with full transfer of technology, people familiar with the matter said on Saturday.
...
It is understood that France will no longer either supply or upgrade French weapon platforms or ammunition with Pakistan. This includes repairs of Mirage III/V fighters as well as Augusta submarines. The same thumb rule will apply to Turkey too, whose authoritarian leader R Erdogan had gone out of his way to launch vitriolic attacks on President Macron.
...
Paris has offered help in development of engine for twin engine LCA or AMCA with the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) as well as making Rafale fighter engines (M-88) under the “Make in India” initiative.

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## Yasser76

BON PLAN said:


> On Rafale and deadly Panther choppers, India gets a huge offer from France
> 
> 
> France has accepted the Indian request that defence technologies shared with the Indian military should not be given to New Delhi’s adversaries. France’s relationship has already reached a new low with Pakistan after PM Imran Khan attacked President Macron.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hindustantimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *On Rafale and deadly Panther choppers, India gets a huge offer from France*
> 
> France has accepted the Indian request that defence technologies shared with the Indian military should not be given to New Delhi’s adversaries. France’s relationship has already reached a new low with Pakistan after PM Imran Khan attacked President Macron.
> 
> India and France have decided to intensify defence cooperation with Paris offering to shift 100 per cent assembly line for Panther medium utility helicopters as well as 70 per cent of the assembly line for Rafale fighters under “Make in India” rubric with full transfer of technology, people familiar with the matter said on Saturday.
> ...
> It is understood that France will no longer either supply or upgrade French weapon platforms or ammunition with Pakistan. This includes repairs of Mirage III/V fighters as well as Augusta submarines. The same thumb rule will apply to Turkey too, whose authoritarian leader R Erdogan had gone out of his way to launch vitriolic attacks on President Macron.
> ...
> Paris has offered help in development of engine for twin engine LCA or AMCA with the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) as well as making Rafale fighter engines (M-88) under the “Make in India” initiative.



This is just coming out in the open with what has been going on for years. Thankfully Pakistan Armed Forces have almost zero reliance on any French tech and of course the reason why Agostas were upgraded in Turkey.

On another note not a good look for France for it's reliability as an arms supplier if it tries to pick and choose it's clients depending on how much they spend.


----------



## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> This is just coming out in the open with what has been going on for years. Thankfully Pakistan Armed Forces have almost zero reliance on any French tech and of course the reason why Agostas were upgraded in Turkey.
> 
> On another note not a good look for France for it's reliability as an arms supplier if it tries to pick and choose it's clients depending on how much they spend.



money talks 
politics is a dirty word 
and India is good at both 
that's why we have even the Saudis and and uae dancing to indian tunes


The Maverick said:


> money talks
> politics is a dirty word
> and India is good at both
> that's why we have even the Saudis and and uae dancing to indian tunes


French weapons are world class just ask your mirage pilots or navy which deem.agosta the most potent weapons in your navy.
another door shut

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> money talks
> politics is a dirty word
> and India is good at both
> that's why we have even the Saudis and and uae dancing to indian tunes
> 
> French weapons are world class just ask your mirage pilots or navy which deem.agosta the most potent weapons in your navy.
> another door shut



Firstly no one denies French weapons are very good, point out where I said otherwise
Secondly Saudi and UAE do not dance to India's tune, they have enough wealth, India is a handy oil market for them, nothing more, nothing less. Militarily India is insignificant in GCC region. 
Of course money talks, point I was making is that at least other potential buyers can now see the French for what they truly are.

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## BON PLAN

Yasser76 said:


> This is just coming out in the open with what has been going on for years. Thankfully Pakistan Armed Forces have almost zero reliance on any French tech and of course the reason why Agostas were upgraded in Turkey.
> 
> On another note not a good look for France for it's reliability as an arms supplier if it tries to pick and choose it's clients depending on how much they spend.


India can rely on France for 60 years, and proved id during the nuc ban and Kargil.
Pak is a too near support of islam integrism. The link are broken. Definitively.


----------



## White and Green with M/S

BON PLAN said:


> India can rely on France for 60 years, and proved id during the nuc ban and Kargil.
> Pak is a too near support of islam integrism. The link are broken. Definitively.


Welcome you false flag Indian


----------



## Yasser76

BON PLAN said:


> India can rely on France for 60 years, and proved id during the nuc ban and Kargil.
> Pak is a too near support of islam integrism. The link are broken. Definitively.



Unsure what you mean by "Islam integrism", but for sure France certainly one of the most Islamaphobic countries in Europe, if not the world, Lets also remember it was your countrymen who were happily helping Nazis throw Jews into camps 80 years ago, so really suggest we do not go down the religious route.

France changes its mood depending on who has cash there and than, lets not pretend it is anything less. In 50s it was Tanks and Jets to Indian, than 60s/70s it was Mirages, Pumas and Subs to Pakistan, than in 80s it was Mirage 2000, Jaguars to India, than in 90s it was Mirages Upgrades and Agosta 90B to Pakistan, and now it is Rafales and Scorpees to India. In a few years you will change again, that is the only certainty around amrs sales polices.

Selling the Indians a 50 year old Chopper design and the production to it is indeed a master stroke, even as China already builds a version of the chopper and Pakistan Navy use it too. Hopeful you will milk the Indians for every dollar like you usually do.

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## White and Green with M/S

Yasser76 said:


> Unsure what you mean by "Islam integrism", but for sure France certainly one of the most Islamaphobic countries in Europe, if not the world, Lets also remember it was your countrymen who were happily helping Nazis throw Jews into camps 80 years ago, so really suggest we do not go down the religious route.
> 
> France changes its mood depending on who has cash there and than, lets not pretend it is anything less. In 50s it was Tanks and Jets to Indian, than 60s/70s it was Mirages, Pumas and Subs to Pakistan, than in 80s it was Mirage 2000, Jaguars to India, than in 90s it was Mirages Upgrades and Agosta 90B to Pakistan, and now it is Rafales and Scorpees to India. In a few years you will change again, that is the only certainty around amrs sales polices.
> 
> Selling the Indians a 50 year old Chopper design and the production to it is indeed a master stroke, even as China already builds a version of the chopper and Pakistan Navy use it too. Hopeful you will milk the Indians for every dollar like you usually do.


He is not French bro but most probably false flag Indian, pretending to be French


----------



## BON PLAN

White and Green with M/S said:


> Welcome you false flag Indian


see my avatar in a french forum.





L'Inde







www.air-defense.net


----------



## White and Green with M/S

BON PLAN said:


> see my avatar in a french forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> L'Inde
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.air-defense.net


LOL this is not the proof that you're French


----------



## Nasr

The Maverick said:


> French weapons are world class just ask your mirage pilots or navy which deem.agosta the most potent weapons in your navy.



French weapons are indeed world class, so are the Russian, the Chinese, the German and the american weapons .... what is not world class, is the indians operating them.

As for your "_another door shut_", the proverbial door has been shutting on us for the last 73 years, bud. Yet we have nukes, we have Block-52 Vipers, we have Erieyes, we have land/sea/air launched Cruise Missiles, we have MIRV Missiles .... you keep living in your parallel universe, while we will keep knocking those shut doors, down!

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## Yasser76

BON PLAN said:


> There was FAR LESS jews send in camps from France than from Netherlands, Poland, East country. Your history lessons are wrong. Typical french bashing.
> There are more muslim people inFrance than in any other european country. Your history lessons are wrong.
> Islam integrism is the nazism of the 21st century.
> 
> with more that 4000 messages.... you are pulling my leg Bro.
> You also see my city : Vendôme, near Blois. 100km south of Paris.



Just because you helped murder slightly less Jews than other countries you think it's fine?

Having large number of Muslims does not make France a great place for them to live, Nazi Germany had a large number of Jews. You cannot seem to argue logically and you are also insulting my religion.

OK, Mods, we happy with comparing Islamism to Nazism? Can we ban this PoS?


----------



## BON PLAN

Nasr said:


> French weapons are indeed world class, so are the Russian, the Chinese, the German and the american weapons .... what is not world class, is the indians operating them.
> 
> As for your "_another door shut_", the proverbial door has been shutting on us for the last 73 years, bud. Yet we have nukes, we have Block-52 Vipers, we Erieyes, we have land/sea/air launched Cruise Missiles, we have MIRV Missiles .... you keep living in your parallel universe, while we will keep knocking those shut doors, down!


without China what are you?
Alone.


----------



## Yasser76

BON PLAN said:


> without China what are you?
> Alone.



Turkey, Italy, Spain, Sweden,Netherlands, Brazil are all countries that have sold Pakistan major weapons systems in last 2 years or so.

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## Nasr

....


----------



## Windjammer

The Maverick said:


> money talks
> politics is a dirty word
> and India is good at both
> that's why we have even the Saudis and and uae dancing to indian tunes
> 
> French weapons are world class just ask your mirage pilots or navy which deem.agosta the most potent weapons in your navy.
> another door shut


After getting slapped stupid by couple of MODs yesterday, your shameless nature can't stop you from posting more BS.....which is understandable as an Indian you don't have a voice anywhere and since PDF has given you some space so naturally you crawl out of your skin.
As for your rant, when the test came, albeit the older Mirages did participate in the missions but it was mostly F-16s and JF-17s that made mince meat of your Agni Pankh Patils while your super duper French Mirage-2000 after pathetically missing targets during attempted Balakot strikes, were running with tails between legs when confronted by the PAF.....giving out excuses of radar malfunction and all this over their own airspace.
As for Saudis and others are concerned, well as the saying goes, beggars can't be chosers.

*450 jobless Indian workers forced to beg in Saudi, shifted to detention centres*
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...to-detention-centres/articleshow/78197281.cms

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## White and Green with M/S

BON PLAN said:


> with more that 4000 messages.... you are pulling my leg Bro.
> You also see my city : Vendôme, near Blois. 100km south of Paris.


Living in France doesn't makes you French, their lots of subcontinent people living in France since decades, you probably one of them (Indian)

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## Reichsmarschall

BON PLAN said:


> see my avatar in a french forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> L'Inde
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.air-defense.net


One of the comment on french forum.

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## no smoking

Reichsmarschall said:


> One of the comment on french forum.
> View attachment 706193



What is this forum? Can you please provide the link?
Thank you in advance.


----------



## Reichsmarschall

BON PLAN said:


> see my avatar in a french forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> L'Inde
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.air-defense.net


@no smoking this forum.


----------



## no smoking

Reichsmarschall said:


> @no smoking this forum.


Thank you.


----------



## MirageBlue

IAF Rafale at Jodhpur

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> IAF Rafale at Jodhpur



Great, hope we can see many more pictures of foreign expensive jets in India.


----------



## MirageBlue

Yasser76 said:


> Great, hope we can see many more pictures of foreign expensive jets in India.



I can feel the jealousy. It's ok, it's paid by our tax payers, not yours.

Till a few years ago, Pakistanis used to fantasize about Rafales and Typhoons for the PAF. Now it seems that it's clear that except for the J-10CE, there's no other alternative at all.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> I can feel the jealousy. It's ok, it's paid by our tax payers, not yours.



Hope they continue to help French and Russian aviation, good luck


----------



## MirageBlue

Yasser76 said:


> Hope they continue to help French and Russian aviation, good luck



We'll continue to import what we need for the time being while working towards eventual self reliance.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> We'll continue to import what we need for the time being while working towards eventual self reliance.



Yes, I know, you will continue, and continue and continue....


----------



## Daghalodi

MirageBlue said:


> IAF Rafale at Jodhpur



Background castle looks amazing.

What is that If I may ask?


----------



## MirageBlue

Daghalodi said:


> Background castle looks amazing.
> 
> What is that If I may ask?



Jodhpur's Umaid Bhawan Palace. It's now a Taj Hotel, incredibly fancy.

Taj Hotels - Umaid Bhawan Palace

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## MirageBlue

Yasser76 said:


> Yes, I know, you will continue, and continue and continue....



We'll be better off than you for sure. Project AZM it seems.


----------



## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> We'll be better off than you for sure. Project AZM it seems.



My friend, you realise that in a few years, as LCA will START to roll out, JF-17 Production will be FINISHING and AZM will be starting. The delays have led India to be a generation behind. You can comprehend this surely?


----------



## MirageBlue

Yasser76 said:


> My friend, you realise that in a few years, as LCA will START to roll out, JF-17 Production will be FINISHING and AZM will be starting. The delays have led India to be a generation behind. You can comprehend this surely?


Well, what does it matter that JF-17 production will end by say 2027 or whenever and Tejas Mk1A production would be going on? PAC Kamra will be either sitting idle or waiting for Shenyang to teach it how to build the FC-31. 

It's not as if the PAF is going to retire the JF-17 and induct all FC-31s is it? Lol.. the JF-17's aren't going anywhere. They'll still be the frontline combat fighter for the PAF for the next 30 years. Which means the Tejas Mk1A, Tejas Mk2 and TEDBF will all be more than relevant. How many FC-31s (or to humor you, AZM) will PAF be able to afford anyway? 60? 100? 

People like you predicted the LCA program would fail and be shelved. It now has 126 orders and 2 new combat fighter programs spun off as well with the IAF backing the Tejas Mk2 to get anywhere between 120-170 orders.

I am constantly amazed how Pakistanis cannot see the fact that with next to zero facilities for fighter aircraft design, there is no real Project AZM within Pakistan. There's not even a sketch of what AZM is. Clearly, the PAF is just waiting on Shenyang to finish work on the FC-31 prototypes, before calling it another JV thanks to some funding that Pakistan will provide. You're happy with the Chinese doing ALL the engineering and technology development work while you assemble and count that as a massive win. And it won't bring any ground breaking change.

India's goals are different, not just taking someone else's design and assembling it together and calling it a JV. It's not just to have a fighter in service, but also to stand up a world class aerospace industry. Meanwhile, Pakistan will always look at the Chinese cupboard and see what it can take off the shelf and adapt for it's needs. When we need more Rafales or other MRFA's, they'll be imported. But work will continue within India on mission mode.

In this decade for India, 4 combat aircraft programs will see prototypes and 2 will even enter production, leading to thousands of jobs at hundreds of MSMEs and OEMs both public and private. As much as you and so many others here on this forum hope for it to fail, India has turned a corner.

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## Windjammer



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## The Eagle

topic please...


*Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]*

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## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> People like you predicted the LCA program would fail and be shelved. It now has 126 orders and 2 new combat fighter programs spun off as well.
> 
> I am constantly amazed how Pakistanis cannot see the fact that with next to zero facilities for fighter aircraft design, there is no real Project AZM within Pakistan. There's not even a sketch of what AZM is. Clearly, the PAF is just waiting on Shenyang to finish work on the FC-31 prototypes, before calling it another JV thanks to some funding that Pakistan will provide. You're happy with the Chinese doing ALL the engineering and technology development work while you assemble and count that as a massive win. And it won't bring any ground breaking change.
> 
> India's goals are different, not just taking someone else's design and assembling it together and calling it a JV. It's not just to have a fighter in service, but also to stand up a world class aerospace industry. Meanwhile, Pakistan will always look at the Chinese cupboard and see what it can take off the shelf and adapt for it's needs. When we need more Rafales or other MRFA's, they'll be imported. But work will continue within India on mission mode.
> 
> In this decade for India, 4 combat aircraft programs will see prototypes and 2 will even enter production, leading to thousands of jobs at hundreds of MSMEs and OEMs both public and private. As much as you and so many others here on this forum hope for it to fail, India has turned a corner.




The more you lose the argument the more your posts lose touch withh reality.

Firstly there is not 126 orders for LCA. Contract has not been signed yet for MK1A, so you need to calm down.

Yes, you are engaged in "developing" 4 new fighters. US and Europe combined are not doing this and your defence budget is 5% of their combined defence budgets. No one outside of HAL Marketing department (and probably not even most of them) believes all 4 will come to frutition.

Yes, Pak has much help from China in helping us build aircraft in house and developing our own industry. India has no such partner.


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## ziaulislam

MirageBlue said:


> Well, what does it matter that JF-17 production will end by say 2027 or whenever and Tejas Mk1A production would be going on? PAC Kamra will be either sitting idle or waiting for Shenyang to teach it how to build the FC-31.
> 
> It's not as if the PAF is going to retire the JF-17 and induct all FC-31s is it? Lol.. the JF-17's aren't going anywhere. They'll still be the frontline combat fighter for the PAF for the next 30 years. Which means the Tejas Mk1A, Tejas Mk2 and TEDBF will all be more than relevant. How many FC-31s (or to humor you, AZM) will PAF be able to afford anyway? 60? 100?
> 
> People like you predicted the LCA program would fail and be shelved. It now has 126 orders and 2 new combat fighter programs spun off as well with the IAF backing the Tejas Mk2 to get anywhere between 120-170 orders.
> 
> I am constantly amazed how Pakistanis cannot see the fact that with next to zero facilities for fighter aircraft design, there is no real Project AZM within Pakistan. There's not even a sketch of what AZM is. Clearly, the PAF is just waiting on Shenyang to finish work on the FC-31 prototypes, before calling it another JV thanks to some funding that Pakistan will provide. You're happy with the Chinese doing ALL the engineering and technology development work while you assemble and count that as a massive win. And it won't bring any ground breaking change.
> 
> India's goals are different, not just taking someone else's design and assembling it together and calling it a JV. It's not just to have a fighter in service, but also to stand up a world class aerospace industry. Meanwhile, Pakistan will always look at the Chinese cupboard and see what it can take off the shelf and adapt for it's needs. When we need more Rafales or other MRFA's, they'll be imported. But work will continue within India on mission mode.
> 
> In this decade for India, 4 combat aircraft programs will see prototypes and 2 will even enter production, leading to thousands of jobs at hundreds of MSMEs and OEMs both public and private. As much as you and so many others here on this forum hope for it to fail, India has turned a corner.


Even if project azm is clone so what?
We arent in competition to produce unique fighter but practical fighter 
This isnt a school science project competition 

With respect to dependence..HAL was delayed why? Engine? So what type of independence you bought?

India would have learned more and ensured its security had it simply license produced gripen in 90, 2000s or 2010s

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## Yasser76

ziaulislam said:


> Even if project azm is clone so what?
> We arent in competition to produce unique fighter but practical fighter
> This isnt a school science project competition
> 
> With respect to dependence..HAL was delayed why? Engine? So what type of independence you bought?
> 
> India would have learned more and ensured its security had it simply license produced gripen in 90, 2000s or 2010s




Shocking, especially when you compare it with the Brazil Gripen E deal.

$4.7 Billion
36 planes
full weapons and training package
Brazilian production and full ToT
$3 Billion swedish investment in Brazilian industry
High chance of more orders after first 36 completed
Signed in 2015, first plane delivered in 2020.


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## ziaulislam

Yasser76 said:


> Shocking, especially when you compare it with the Brazil Gripen E deal.
> 
> $4.7 Billion
> 36 planes
> full weapons and training package
> Brazilian production and full ToT
> $3 Billion swedish investment in Brazilian industry
> High chance of more orders after first 36 completed
> Signed in 2015, first plane delivered in 2020.


Cheaper then HAL tejas
More learning experience 

But i think we should be happy
Atlesst they won the science project 

In 2012 i said on this forum scrap MRCA and go fot gripen

Had they signed a 9b$ gripen NG instead of rafale deal PAF would have been sweating now

9+8B of money diverted to gripen would have meant 200+ gripens
That would have been a somewhat resistance to PLAAF massive 1500(700+j10(abc),700 flankers) fourth gn fleet

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## MirageBlue

Yasser76 said:


> The more you lose the argument the more your posts lose touch withh reality.


Troll can’t handle the truth I suppose



> Firstly there is not 126 orders for LCA. Contract has not been signed yet for MK1A, so you need to calm down.


It’s a done deal as far as HAL and IAF are concerned. The MoD confirmed that it will sign the contract at Aero India.
Their statements matter not those of some internet troll.


> Yes, you are engaged in "developing" 4 new fighters. US and Europe combined are not doing this and your defence budget is 5% of their combined defence budgets. No one outside of HAL Marketing department (and probably not even most of them) believes all 4 will come to frutition.


Lol. First it was that there weren’t 4 programs. Now with interviews with the Project Directors coming out and actual progress being described in interviews, the troll wants to believe that no one believes they’ll come to fruition. Despite the IAF saying it is hedging it’s future bets on Tejas Mk2 and AMCA. And IN having released operational requirements document to ADA. The customers are behind the programs and there is political will to achieve maximum self reliance. They will be completed, as horrible as that thought may be to many folks here who cannot comprehend what’ll happen beyond Block 3 on their side.



> Yes, Pak has much help from China in helping us build aircraft in house and developing our own industry. India has no such partner.


India doesn’t need a daddy. Lol.

all they’re teaching you is how to assemble fighters. Big deal.

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## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> Troll can’t handle the truth I suppose
> 
> 
> It’s a done deal as far as HAL and IAF are concerned. The MoD confirmed that it will sign the contract at Aero India.
> Their statements matter not those of some internet troll.
> 
> Lol. First it was that there weren’t 4 programs. Now with interviews with the Project Directors coming out and actual progress being described in interviews, the troll wants to believe that no one believes they’ll come to fruition. Despite the IAF saying it is hedging it’s future bets on Tejas Mk2 and AMCA. And IN having released operational requirements document to ADA. The customers are behind the programs and there is political will to achieve maximum self reliance. They will be completed, as horrible as that thought may be to many folks here who cannot comprehend what’ll happen beyond Block 3 on their side.
> 
> 
> India doesn’t need a daddy. Lol.
> 
> all they’re teaching you is how to assemble fighters. Big deal.



Is there a signed contract for MK1A? It's a yes or know answer?

So MK1A, LCA MK 2, AMACA, and Naval programme do not add up to 4 (please check my maths for me), again, simple yes or no answer no need to go into a complicated Indian habit of writing 2 paragraphs. Just yes or no.

Thanks


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## MirageBlue

Yasser76 said:


> Is there a signed contract for MK1A? It's a yes or know answer?
> 
> So MK1A, LCA MK 2, AMACA, and Naval programme do not add up to 4 (please check my maths for me), again, simple yes or no answer no need to go into a complicated Indian habit of writing 2 paragraphs. Just yes or no.
> 
> Thanks



Man the troll is so predictable!

This troll will ask for the attested contract document to be shown to him in a week when it's signed officially by the Defence Minister at Aero India..lol



> The 13th edition of Aero India, the defence ministry’s biannual air show, will see heightened government pitch for indigenous aircraft designs. Defence Minister Rajnath Singh will formally sign India’s largest defence orders for Indian industry, a Rs 48,000 crore contract for 83 LCA Tejas Mark 1 aircraft on February 3. The contract--73 combat jets in the Mark 1A configuration and 10 Mark 1 trainers--will be signed on the inaugural day of the three-day Aero India 2021 air show beginning in Bengaluru on February 3.



If one was ask the troll if there are signed contracts for the JF-17 Block 3, for the RD-93 engines, for the PL-15, all the stuff that they regularly boast about on the other threads, then I'm sure he'll claim "don't bring the JF-17 into this".

Go split hairs elsewhere troll. In less than a week's time your post won't even matter.


And in more news related to the Rafale for the IAF, 3 more Rafales landed in India yesterday. Fleet size is now 11, with No.17 'Golden Arrows' squadron at Ambala AFS.

UAE AF's A-330 MRTT provided refueling on multiple occasions to the 3 IAF Rafales.

3rd batch of Rafale fighter jets land in India

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## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> Man the troll is so predictable!
> 
> This troll will ask for the attested contract document to be shown to him in a week when it's signed officially by the Defence Minister at Aero India..lol
> 
> 
> 
> If one was ask the troll if there are signed contracts for the JF-17 Block 3, for the RD-93 engines, for the PL-15, all the stuff that they regularly boast about on the other threads, then I'm sure he'll claim "don't bring the JF-17 into this".
> 
> Go split hairs elsewhere troll. In less than a week's time your post won't even matter.
> 
> 
> And in more news related to the Rafale for the IAF, 3 more Rafales landed in India yesterday. Fleet size is now 11, with No.17 'Golden Arrows' squadron at Ambala AFS.
> 
> UAE AF's A-330 MRTT provided refueling on multiple occasions to the 3 IAF Rafales.
> 
> 3rd batch of Rafale fighter jets land in India



So you could simply not answer two yes/no questions truthfully as requested for fear your lies would be exposed?

I will ask again, maybe your English is not that good.

Signed order for MK1A? Yes or no?
4 new designs promised (MK1A, MK2, AMACA, Navy Fighter). Yes or no?


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## MirageBlue

Yasser76 said:


> So you could simply not answer two yes/no questions truthfully as requested for fear your lies would be exposed?
> 
> I will ask again, maybe your English is not that good.
> 
> Signed order for MK1A? Yes or no?
> 4 new designs promised (MK1A, MK2, AMACA, Navy Fighter). Yes or no?



Lol..

Troll got stuck..keep repeating this for the next 5 days. And you'll have your answer on Feb 3. 

As for the 4 new designs, who said no to that? It was you who kept saying that all this was just HAL marketing wasn't it? Or does the troll's memory fail him? 

You might want to add a potential 5th design, the ORCA derivative of the TEDBF to the mix as well, which HAL is pitching to the IAF. Will make your trolling even more interesting.

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## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> Lol..
> 
> Troll got stuck..keep repeating this for the next 5 days. And you'll have your answer on Feb 3.
> 
> As for the 4 new designs, who said no to that? It was you who kept saying that all this was just HAL marketing wasn't it? Or does the troll's memory fail him?
> 
> You might want to add a potential 5th design, the ORCA derivative of the TEDBF to the mix as well, which HAL is pitching to the IAF. Will make your trolling even more interesting.




OK, so guess no real answers from you. I will just state the facts again, correct me if I am wrong

1) No contract signature for LCA MK1A
4) 4 New jet designs being promised (more then US/EU/Russia combined)

No you can go.


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## MirageBlue

First image of an IAF Rafale with a Scalp ALCM. Quite rare to see it on the outer pylons rather than on the inner pylon. Apparently as per French posters on another forum, French Rafales are not cleared to carry Scalp on the outermost pylons.

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## Lord Of Gondor

MirageBlue said:


> First image of an IAF Rafale with a Scalp ALCM. Quite rare to see it on the outer pylons rather than on the inner pylon. Apparently as per French posters on another forum, French Rafales are not cleared to carry Scalp on the outermost pylons.


That is a heavy loadout, 1.3T for each SCALP, 2 2000L DT and 1 1250L Supersonic Centerline DT
~6.5T in all!

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## Mighty Lion

Yasser76 said:


> there a signed contract for MK1A? It's a yes or know answer?


Answer is Yes.
HAL just got the contract-


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356823498862170112

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## Yasser76

Mighty Lion said:


> Answer is Yes.
> HAL just got the contract-
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356823498862170112



There you go. NOW you can celebrate.

Also now we can start timer on first flight of MK1A.......


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## MirageBlue

Rafales flying over Yelahanka at Aero India 2021

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## MirageBlue

Rafales take off at Yelahanka during Aero India 2021

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## MirageBlue

IAF Rafale with Scalp on the static line

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## ralphleo

The irony of the past few posts is that they actually and truly represent the ideological mindset of two countries.

CONVERSATION TODAY:

India... "we are doing abc today, its good but not great, we are already planning to do xyz great things in the NEXT FEW YEARS"

Pakistan.... "you guys are just day dreaming, everything is delayed and over promised, your country has so many problems, poverty, etc etc"

...... THOSE NEXT FEW YEARS PASS...

Indian economy becomes xx times greater instead of yy times of PAKISTAN's as was the case few years back,.... Some projects materialise, some get delayed and a few get rescued through JV

India moves up the value chain, climbs technology ladder, develops some previously unavailable tech and continues with its own pace 

CONVERSATION AFTER THOSE FEW YEARS...

India... "we are doing abc today, its good but not great, we are already planning to do xyz great things in the NEXT FEW YEARS"

Pakistan.... "you guys are just day dreaming, everything is delayed and over promised, your country has so many problems.. , etc etc".


MEANWHILE, perceiving this as a third person watching from outside...THE GAP BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES WIDENED

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## Yasser76

ralphleo said:


> The irony of the past few posts is that they actually and truly represent the ideological mindset of two countries.
> 
> CONVERSATION TODAY:
> 
> India... "we are doing abc today, its good but not great, we are already planning to do xyz great things in the NEXT FEW YEARS"
> 
> Pakistan.... "you guys are just day dreaming, everything is delayed and over promised, your country has so many problems, poverty, etc etc"
> 
> ...... THOSE NEXT FEW YEARS PASS...
> 
> Indian economy becomes xx times greater instead of yy times of PAKISTAN's as was the case few years back,.... Some projects materialise, some get delayed and a few get rescued through JV
> 
> India moves up the value chain, climbs technology ladder, develops some previously unavailable tech and continues with its own pace
> 
> CONVERSATION AFTER THOSE FEW YEARS...
> 
> India... "we are doing abc today, its good but not great, we are already planning to do xyz great things in the NEXT FEW YEARS"
> 
> Pakistan.... "you guys are just day dreaming, everything is delayed and over promised, your country has so many problems.. , etc etc".
> 
> 
> MEANWHILE, perceiving this as a third person watching from outside...THE GAP BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES WIDENED



Quite a condescending statement, especially considering the Pakistan economy actually grew in 2020 whilst India's contracted and suffered it's worst performance since 1974, but yeah...

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## Dac O Dac

Qatar air force exhibition.


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## MirageBlue

Gorgeous IAF Rafale

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## air marshal



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## Dac O Dac

MirageBlue said:


> Apparently as per French posters on another forum, French Rafales are not cleared to carry Scalp on the outermost pylons.


NO.
The french Rafale are fully opened for : SCALP under the inner pylons and 1200L external tanks on the outer OR 2000L external tanks under the inner pylons and SCALP on the outer.
The last config is now the only used in french air force (but french navy use only a config with one SCALP under the frame when used from the carrier)


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## MirageBlue

Twitter link



> With No 17 sqn reaching full operational strength next month with 18 Rafales in squadron inventory; the 2nd Rafale (No. 101 sqn Falcons) will be raised next month in Hasimara base.



So No.17 'Golden Arrows' Squadron will get it's full complement of 18 Rafales next month, with 7 more due to arrive. Then onwards, the rest will all go to No.101 'Falcons' Squadron to be based in West Bengal's Hasimara AFS. All 36 Rafales are due to be delivered by April 2022.

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## Lord Of Gondor

and here is the first image with the Meteor!




img credits to Vincent Vannier twitter

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## MirageBlue

Beautiful Rafale in IAF colors. Pic credits in pics themselves







BS019 has had it's first flight. That means 27 Rafales for the IAF have already been built and flown. 19 single seaters and 8 twin seaters.










IAF Rafale BS015. 






IAF Rafale RB007

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## MirageBlue

IAF pilot in the front seat, French trainer in the back seat, fighter BS009 twin seater






RB007 single seater..so damn beautiful, can stare at the front fuselage itself for ages..

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## MirageBlue

3 more Rafales are due to land in India today after completing their ferry flight from Merignac with in-flight refueling support from A-330 MRTTs of the UAE Air Force. This will take the number of Rafales in India to 14, all with No.17 'Golden Arrows' squadron.

9 more Rafales are coming in April, of which 4 will round off No.17 'Golden Arrows' squadron (@18 fighters) and then 5 will be used to re-form No.101 'Falcons' squadron in Hasimara AFS, West Bengal.

3 Rafales to land in India on Wednesday March 31

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## MirageBlue

3 Rafale single seaters BS008, BS009 and BS0010 have landed in India after a 10 hour, 7000 km ferry flight from Merignac, Bordeaux. The 3 Rafales were refueled mid-way by UAE AF tankers. Last batch was also refueled by UAE AF tankers mid-way. 

Twitter link

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## The Maverick

I want to see 40 more ordered asap 

then mark 2 tejas to arrive 

followed by Amca in 2035


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## MirageBlue

IAF Rafales over Ladakh

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## Euro fighter

They need more than 36 rafales.

Really need that second batch of 36 asap


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## MirageBlue

3 more Rafale DH single seaters BS012, 013 and 014 plus 1 Rafale EH twin seater have departed from Merignac in France to their home in India..

With these 4 Rafales, the No.17 'Golden Arrows' squadron will have received all 18 of it's Rafales. The remainder will now start to go to Hasimara to the home of the No.101 'Falcons' squadron. 



> JUST IN: IAF chief Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria sees off the latest batch of Rafale fighters from the Istres air base in France. The IAF chief is on an official visit to France. (Photos/
> @Indian_Embassy
> )












IAF ACM RKS Bhadauria got a tour of Dassault's facilities

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## MirageBlue

Rafale BS012, BS013 and BS014 on the tarmac before taking off for India..truly exquisitely beautiful fighter, the Rafale..

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## MirageBlue

Rafale single seater BS019. This means that 27 Rafales out of 36 have already been built and flown. 

Another batch will be flying out to India soon.

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## MirageBlue

Update..now we have BS021 flying as well..which means 29 Rafales have been built out of 36.


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## Raja Porus

Fifth batch of rafales arrive in India.




Fifth batch of rafales arrive in India.


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## MirageBlue

3 more Rafales have left from France for Jamnagar. With their arrival, the number of Rafales with the IAF will stand at 21.

These 3 will go to the next Rafale squadron, No.101 'Falcons'

Twitter link



> Next batch of three #Rafales leave from France to India today; wished the pilots smooth flight and safe landing.



4 pilots suited up in their flight suit means this delivery included 1 Rafale DH twin seater and 2 Rafale EH single seaters.









The gentleman in the middle is Air Cmde Hilal Ahmed Rather, India's Air Attache to France.

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## airmarshal

No doubt Rafale is a beautiful and capable fighter. But 36 for a country the size of India is such a joke.


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## Yasser76

airmarshal said:


> No doubt Rafale is a beautiful and capable fighter. But 36 for a country the size of India is such a joke.



I think there was talk of a follow on order (mainly just internet fanboys) but considering that this year will probably see negative growth due to COVID on top of the massive drop last year, I do not think there will be money for more.


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## MirageBlue

airmarshal said:


> No doubt Rafale is a beautiful and capable fighter. But 36 for a country the size of India is such a joke.



It is not enough that's for sure. But it will be used in conjunction with the Mirage-2000Is, Su-30MKIs and in the future Tejas Mk1 and Mk1As as the tip of the spear.

But rest assured, this will not be the last Rafale order placed by the IAF, that much is for sure.

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## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> It is not enough that's for sure. But it will be used in conjunction with the Mirage-2000Is, Su-30MKIs and in the future Tejas Mk1 and Mk1As as the tip of the spear.
> 
> But rest assured, this will not be the last Rafale order placed by the IAF, that much is for sure.



Given the current climate it would be hard to claim anything is "for sure". IAF's Mirage 2000 and MIG-29 buys stayed at a very modest number, and seeing that this year may well be the second year in a row of negative growth, if any follow on order is placed it may be years from now, and that is a big if as it will be the same time IAF has to commit to LCA MK2 and AMCA.


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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> Given the current climate it would be hard to claim anything is "for sure". IAF's Mirage 2000 and MIG-29 buys stayed at a very modest number, and seeing that this year may well be the second year in a row of negative growth, if any follow on order is placed it may be years from now, and that is a big if as it will be the same time IAF has to commit to LCA MK2 and AMCA.




You cou;ld not be further from the Truth if you tried 

The second order of rafale is very much on the cards either as the 

1. Winner of 114 mmrca order OR 
2. cancel of MMRCA order above and smaller order of 36 or slightly more Rafales GTG deal. 

Looking at how India has paid for two air bases capable of handing 40 Rafales each the likely hood ids that once F4 version enters service in France IAF will sign for 36 to 40 more rafales in 2022-2023 timeframe 

You comment re its fan boy ilusions is again far off the mark since both HAL Dassult and French prime minster are all pushing IAF to order next batch. ITS almost a forgone conclusion

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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> You living in reality? India will see negative growth for second year in a row this year due to Covid. You are literally throwing your mothers and daughters into rivers full of faeces due to this. Half the country is in lockdown, your last budget barely covered payments for the last lot of equipment. You are now so beyond f**ked that the light from f**ked will take a million years to reach you.
> 
> PS Were you not banned already?



Hey Covid has hit India hard . Infact very hard .......... But dont get so dramatic ...........
It will get better im sure .
Yes one million are dead possibly 2 or 3 million BUT india is not pakistan with tiny resources or a african country .
It has very large resources relative to most nations .
Poor will die 
And Covid will continue for another one year 
But please spare us the the end of the world saga 

They still have 580 billion in forex alone ........... YES that was nearly 600 billion dollars 
So they can cope 

As for Rafale this wll be signed next 12- 18 months with delivery starting 2025-2026 at earlirest 

Now please dont tell me will be still in COVID then

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## jk007

Yasser76 said:


> You are literally throwing your mothers and daughters into rivers full of faeces due to this.


This is such a shameful & inhuman post. I guess moderators don't bother as the abuse is on India.


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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> You living in reality? India will see negative growth for second year in a row this year due to Covid. You are literally throwing your mothers and daughters into rivers full of faeces due to this. Half the country is in lockdown, your last budget barely covered payments for the last lot of equipment. You are now so beyond f**ked that the light from f**ked will take a million years to reach you.
> 
> PS Were you not banned already?


Countries by GDP: The Top 25 Economies in the World (investopedia.com) 

I hate bursting your bubble 
But your so biased its laughable 
India is in covid disaster BUT guess what still top 6 GDP on the planet
THINK what may happen if no pandemic


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## lightoftruth

airmarshal said:


> No doubt Rafale is a beautiful and capable fighter. But 36 for a country the size of India is such a joke.


This is just a first order,

Every Indian purchase has been in batches.

"_ In 1996 India signed a US$1.462 billion deal with Sukhoi for 50 Russian-produced Su-30MKIs in five batches. The first batch were eight Su-30MKs, the basic version of Su-30. The second batch were to be 10 Su-30MKIs with French and Israeli avionics. The third batch were to be 10 Su-30MKIs featuring canard foreplanes. The fourth batch of 12 Su-30MKIs and final batch of 10 Su-30MKIs were to have the AL-31FP turbofans.
In October 2000, a memorandum of understanding (MoU) was signed for Indian licence-production of 140 Su-30MKIs; in December 2000, a deal was sealed at Russia's Irkutsk aircraft plant for full technology transfer. _
"
Expecting at least 3 more squadrons.

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> Countries by GDP: The Top 25 Economies in the World (investopedia.com)
> 
> I hate bursting your bubble
> But your so biased its laughable
> India is in covid disaster BUT guess what still top 6 GDP on the planet
> THINK what may happen if no pandemic



No bias, last jets are being delivered, 6 years since first order and India is now a dirty word when it comes to Covid. 

Best you post when new jets are ordered else everything else is like "Tejas MK II this year", "201 Arjuns in service", and all the other BS you posted.


lightoftruth said:


> This is just a first order,
> 
> Every Indian purchase has been in batches.
> 
> "_ In 1996 India signed a US$1.462 billion deal with Sukhoi for 50 Russian-produced Su-30MKIs in five batches. The first batch were eight Su-30MKs, the basic version of Su-30. The second batch were to be 10 Su-30MKIs with French and Israeli avionics. The third batch were to be 10 Su-30MKIs featuring canard foreplanes. The fourth batch of 12 Su-30MKIs and final batch of 10 Su-30MKIs were to have the AL-31FP turbofans.
> In October 2000, a memorandum of understanding (MoU) was signed for Indian licence-production of 140 Su-30MKIs; in December 2000, a deal was sealed at Russia's Irkutsk aircraft plant for full technology transfer. _
> "
> Expecting at least 3 more squadrons.



Calm down, even Mirage 2000 you claim to love so much was never over 60 planes, same with MIG-29. Now India is going through it's worst economic period in 40 years and you think you can spend another $4 -$5 billion?


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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> No bias, last jets are being delivered, 6 years since first order and India is now a dirty word when it comes to Covid.
> 
> Best you post when new jets are ordered else everything else is like "Tejas MK II this year", "201 Arjuns in service", and all the other BS you posted.
> 
> 
> Calm down, even Mirage 2000 you claim to love so much was never over 60 planes, same with MIG-29. Now India is going through it's worst economic period in 40 years and you think you can spend another $4 -$5 billion?



you Pakistanis are dreaming of 5th gen fighters and j10 and f16 on one tenth of indian resources. 
i guess that is ok it's a Pakistani forum.
but when the 6th strongest economy suggests buying another second batch of existing fighters it not possible according to yasser they can't afford it despite having 100.times that in forex and the,deal.likely not coming until 2022 .
hey what about pandemic 
it's global.buddy not just indian


----------



## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> you Pakistanis are dreaming of 5th gen fighters and j10 and f16 on one tenth of indian resources.
> i guess that is ok it's a Pakistani forum.
> but when the 6th strongest economy suggests buying another second batch of existing fighters it not possible according to yasser they can't afford it despite having 100.times that in forex and the,deal.likely not coming until 2022 .
> hey what about pandemic
> it's global.buddy not just indian



Please, usual ploy of "what about Pakistan" fools no one. Order more Rafs then talk.

No new second line of subs

No new third carrier

No new fighters for Navy

No new MMRCA

No new Medium transport replacement

No new AWACS

No new refullers

Please, no one is fooled anymore. Pray for your dead bodies in Ganges not $100 million jet fighters.


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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> Please, usual ploy of "what about Pakistan" fools no one. Order more Rafs then talk.
> 
> No new second line of subs
> 
> No new third carrier
> 
> No new fighters for Navy
> 
> No new MMRCA
> 
> No new Medium transport replacement
> 
> No new AWACS
> 
> No new refullers
> 
> Please, no one is fooled anymore. Pray for your dead bodies in Ganges not $100 million jet fighters.



you reek of insecurity and bias. 
pandemic has hit.the world even in Europe we have,struggled especially itlay France last year usa and Brazil too..
China,and pakistan and African countrys you hide the real numbers,
this,has not stopped you buying 30 thunders from.china block 3 by 2025.
defense goes,on

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## lightoftruth

Yasser76 said:


> Calm down, even Mirage 2000 you claim to love so much was never over 60 planes, same with MIG-29. Now *India is going through it's worst economic period in 40 years and you think you can spend another $4 -$5 billion?*


If this lie makes you sleep at night,it's fine but in reality we currently have 600 billion USD, more than twice your entire GDP in forex.
We are growing in double digits, even after Covid their is no national lockdown this year,the only reason GDP growth was negative last year.
We have more than enough money to purchase not 3 but 10 squadrons if needed.

Mirage had different roles ,Rafale will have followon orders once the current 36 are completely delivered.

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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> Please, usual ploy of "what about Pakistan" fools no one. Order more Rafs then talk.
> 
> No new second line of subs
> 
> No new third carrier
> 
> No new fighters for Navy
> 
> No new MMRCA
> 
> No new Medium transport replacement
> 
> No new AWACS
> 
> No new refullers
> 
> Please, no one is fooled anymore. Pray for your dead bodies in Ganges not $100 million jet fighters.



the,threads was about Rafale yasser.
love the way.you derail the topic to dead bodies and a,3rd carrier. 
stick to the topic buddy stop your trolling. 
21 rafales are here already and 15.to arrive by end of this year. 
by the way s400 arrives in November first regiment. no doubt you will wish to comment on this I'm sure.
Romeo helicopters have started,to arrive the last of 6 scorpene late.this year.
Tejas deployed,on pak border with user trials,of python 5 and Derby finished . Astra testing started.
usa,engines, arrived,for tejas,mark 2 

my point there's,a lot happening despite the gloom.of covid and we,are paying in cash not giving away land and ports ... wink wink

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## MirageBlue

lightoftruth said:


> If this lie makes you sleep at night,it's fine but in reality we currently have 600 billion USD, more than twice your entire GDP in forex.
> We are growing in double digits, even after Covid their is no national lockdown this year,the only reason GDP growth was negative last year.
> We have more than enough money to purchase not 3 but 10 squadrons if needed.
> 
> Mirage had different roles ,Rafale will have followon orders once the current 36 are completely delivered.



Ignore the troll. Nothing he says makes a whit of a difference out there in the real world..he can live in his fantasy world.

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## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> Ignore the troll. Nothing he says makes a whit of a difference out there in the real world..he can live in his fantasy world.




Fantasy? You are literally talking about an additional order that 

1) Does not exist
2) No major non Indian defence outlet has even reported as a possibility recently
3) Worst Indian economic crisis in 40 years.

All three of the above are FACTS.

Now go on talking about non existent orders.....


The Maverick said:


> you reek of insecurity and bias.
> pandemic has hit.the world even in Europe we have,struggled especially itlay France last year usa and Brazil too..
> China,and pakistan and African countrys you hide the real numbers,
> this,has not stopped you buying 30 thunders from.china block 3 by 2025.
> defense goes,on



Were you not banned dude? How did you get back in?


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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> Fantasy? You are literally talking about an additional order that
> 
> 1) Does not exist
> 2) No major non Indian defence outlet has even reported as a possibility recently
> 3) Worst Indian economic crisis in 40 years.
> 
> All three of the above are FACTS.
> 
> Now go on talking about non existent orders.....
> 
> 
> Were you not banned dude? How did you get back in?



you really are childish.... 
why don't you just have an adult debate.without trolling... this banning line you use. the minute any indian poster dare challenge you fictional dreams which are so far removed from ground reality
pakistan is what it is .... we all know that 
banning me or any indian will.not change this geo economic political ranking
rafales are here complete with scalp .meteore hammer rbe2 aesa radars.

add the massive s400 missle radar umbrella and an area of 400km radius has become a no go zone for your f16 and thunders

since swift resort your paf had virtually zero investment other than those 30 thunders Coming you people have rested on your laurels . 
India has,added 
Rafale 
updated radio comms 
s400 start arriving November 
tejas,deal signed and arriving 
more p8 Poseidon
Romeo helicopters,

pakistan economic reality your answer has been nothing virtually 

that is the bee in the bonnet
but let's ban the Indians that will.make us feel better

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> you really are childish....
> why don't you just have an adult debate.without trolling... this banning line you use. the minute any indian poster dare challenge you fictional dreams which are so far removed from ground reality
> pakistan is what it is .... we all know that
> banning me or any indian will.not change this geo economic political ranking
> rafales are here complete with scalp .meteore hammer rbe2 aesa radars.
> 
> add the massive s400 missle radar umbrella and an area of 400km radius has become a no go zone for your f16 and thunders
> 
> since swift resort your paf had virtually zero investment other than those 30 thunders Coming you people have rested on your laurels .
> India has,added
> Rafale
> updated radio comms
> s400 start arriving November
> tejas,deal signed and arriving
> more p8 Poseidon
> Romeo helicopters,
> 
> pakistan economic reality your answer has been nothing virtually
> 
> that is the bee in the bonnet
> but let's ban the Indians that will.make us feel better




Time to stop your wet dreams. Please just post ONE SINGLE INDEPENDANT SOURCE, that shows a follow on order is on the cards. Do not change subject. Simple request. Just one source.


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## The Maverick

The Maverick said:


> You cou;ld not be further from the Truth if you tried
> 
> The second order of rafale is very much on the cards either as the
> 
> 1. Winner of 114 mmrca order OR
> 2. cancel of MMRCA order above and smaller order of 36 or slightly more Rafales GTG deal.
> 
> Looking at how India has paid for two air bases capable of handing 40 Rafales each the likely hood ids that once F4 version enters service in France IAF will sign for 36 to 40 more rafales in 2022-2023 timeframe
> 
> You comment re its fan boy ilusions is again far off the mark since both HAL Dassult and French prime minster are all pushing IAF to order next batch. ITS almost a forgone conclusion





Yasser76 said:


> Time to stop your wet dreams. Please just post ONE SINGLE INDEPENDANT SOURCE, that shows a follow on order is on the cards. Do not change subject. Simple request. Just one source.



please explain what is wet dream.about second Rafale order of 36 fighters .

we have 50.times your forex 
10.times your GDP 
6 times your defense budget 
which part is wet dream.
do you understand we have a capex elements to our defense budget which this year and the next 10.years means we will have minimum.18 billion dollars a year just for new weapons..
just multiple 18 billion by 10 years 
that's a whopping 180 billion with out inflation 
now tell me 36 more Rafale is a wet dream.what 6 or 7 billion dollars 
it's not only feasible it's highly likely

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> please explain what is wet dream.about second Rafale order of 36 fighters .
> 
> we have 50.times your forex
> 10.times your GDP
> 6 times your defense budget
> which part is wet dream.
> do you understand we have a capex elements to our defense budget which this year and the next 10.years means we will have minimum.18 billion dollars a year just for new weapons..
> just multiple 18 billion by 10 years
> that's a whopping 180 billion with out inflation
> now tell me 36 more Rafale is a wet dream.what 6 or 7 billion dollars
> it's not only feasible it's highly likely




2ND TIME ASKING. PROVIDE ONE LINK TO ADDITIONAL RAFALE ORDER.


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## VkdIndian

The Maverick said:


> please explain what is wet dream.about second Rafale order of 36 fighters .
> 
> we have 50.times your forex
> 10.times your GDP



Some of these posters have written reams of paper on J-10C induction in the PAF. Has there been any official announcement or even intent by any side on that induction? Nope. Nada. 

However these same blokes SOURCE DEMANDING bone gets activated suddenly and selectively.

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## Cookie Monster

VkdIndian said:


> Some of these posters have written reams of paper on J-10C induction in the PAF. Has there been any official announcement or even intent by any side on that induction? Nope. Nada.
> 
> However these same blokes SOURCE DEMANDING bone gets activated suddenly and selectively.


The difference here is that Pakistan is known to make inductions and not announce the order ahead of time. Many a times it has been the case that something was inducted...but came to surface much later.

We see similar secrecy with China...and therefore leaks, rumors, hints, blurry pics...start speculation...bcuz it's not like the military will announce it before inducting/purchasing something. They will simply announce it at their own convenience.

This is not the case with India. India publically announces all its purchases and inductions. The expectations are set based on the past trends.


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## The Maverick

Cookie Monster said:


> The difference here is that Pakistan is known to make inductions and not announce the order ahead of time. Many a times it has been the case that something was inducted...but came to surface much later.
> 
> We see similar secrecy with China...and therefore leaks, rumors, hints, blurry pics...start speculation...bcuz it's not like the military will announce it before inducting/purchasing something. They will simply announce it at their own convenience.
> 
> This is not the case with India. India publically announces all its purchases and inductions. The expectations are set based on the past trends.



please explain your top secret sudden induction your referring too.

because I can't think of one


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## VkdIndian

Cookie Monster said:


> The difference here is that Pakistan is known to make inductions and not announce the order ahead of time. Many a times it has been the case that something was inducted...but came to surface much later.
> 
> We see similar secrecy with China...and therefore leaks, rumors, hints, blurry pics...start speculation...bcuz it's not like the military will announce it before inducting/purchasing something. They will simply announce it at their own convenience.
> 
> This is not the case with India. India publically announces all its purchases and inductions. The expectations are set based on the past trends.


It does happen with China. Haven’t seen it happening with any major induction in Pakistan.

The first Rafale deal was not known till the Prime Minister reached France and it was announced there. 

So there is a precedence to things being done in secrecy. There could be repetition this time too.


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## Yasser76

VkdIndian said:


> Some of these posters have written reams of paper on J-10C induction in the PAF. Has there been any official announcement or even intent by any side on that induction? Nope. Nada.
> 
> However these same blokes SOURCE DEMANDING bone gets activated suddenly and selectively.



Funny way of admitting you have no evidence. Usually Janes, Flight Global, have reports and as we know the Indian Media loses it's collective shit when even one Rafale plan lands in India.

All of them are quiet on a new order.....


VkdIndian said:


> It does happen with China. Haven’t seen it happening with any major induction in Pakistan.
> 
> The first Rafale deal was not known till the Prime Minister reached France and it was announced there.
> 
> So there is a precedence to things being done in secrecy. There could be repetition this time too.



No, nothing is done is secrecy, the Rafale deal was stuck in negitiations for YEARS and publicly debated in almost every Indian site BEFORE Modi went to France. It was the most public deal in India's history so please enough of this BS that hidden behind the scenes deals get done. You have been publicly debating and reporting on a deal for used MIG-29s for the last 2 years.

Happens all the time in Pakistan, zero news reports on Pakistan buying AAW139s, Hangor Subs and Chinese frigates until the day the deal was signed. We talk less and action more. 



Nice try in rewriting history though.


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## VkdIndian

Before some posters go into depression here is an indication of more Rafales.









Decision to buy more Rafale aircraft or new fighter jets under consideration, IAF chief says


During his annual press conference, Air Chief Marshal R.K.S. Bhadauria also announced that the 36 Rafale fighter jets will be operationalised completely by 2023.




theprint.in





I am sure that IAF Chief’s comment would be unacceptable to “ RELABLE SOURCE” demanding friends here.

But that’s what I have. Meanwhile trying to get a confirmation from PAF Chief.
Till then don’t be angry. 😉😉

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## Yasser76

VkdIndian said:


> Before some posters go into depression here is an indication of more Rafales.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decision to buy more Rafale aircraft or new fighter jets under consideration, IAF chief says
> 
> 
> During his annual press conference, Air Chief Marshal R.K.S. Bhadauria also announced that the 36 Rafale fighter jets will be operationalised completely by 2023.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theprint.in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure that IAF Chief’s comment would be unacceptable to “ RELABLE SOURCE” demanding friends here.
> 
> But that’s what I have. Meanwhile trying to get a confirmation from PAF Chief.
> Till then don’t be angry. 😉😉



Read your own article.

" under discussion and debate "

Not a done deal.


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## VkdIndian

For some trolls

ON THE CARDS = DEAL SHOULD HAVE BEEN SIGNED = PRODUCTION STARTED = TRAINING TEAMS SHOULD HAVE GONE= WEAPON TRILAS DONE ETC ETC.

I fail to understand how “on the cards” meaning is different for these duds. Because DUDS they are. 🤣🤣

But as you read a thread their propensity to derail a thread becomes clear. First they try and latch on to one statement by deriving a meaning as convenient to them, then they shift to dead bodies in rivers, failing there they start stooping to low levels by quoting mothers and sister kind of comments.

As @MirageBlue said ignoring such specimens is the best policy.

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## Yasser76

VkdIndian said:


> For some trolls
> 
> ON THE CARDS = DEAL SHOULD HAVE BEEN SIGNED = PRODUCTION STARTED = TRAINING TEAMS SHOULD HAVE GONE= WEAPON TRILAS DONE ETC ETC.
> 
> I fail to understand how “on the cards” meaning is different for these duds. Because DUDS they are. 🤣🤣
> 
> But as you read a thread their propensity to derail a thread becomes clear. First they try and latch on to one statement by deriving a meaning as convenient to them, then they shift to dead bodies in rivers, failing there they start stooping to low levels by quoting mothers and sister kind of comments.
> 
> As @MirageBlue said ignoring such specimens is the best policy.




It is simple, option is being debated, some posters claiming it is a done deal, you posted evidence that actually confirms what I am saying, that this is by no means a done deal. It's simple, but I do not expect you to understand. As of now, no chance of anymore orders considering what is going on in India.


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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> It is simple, option is being debated, some posters claiming it is a done deal, you posted evidence that actually confirms what I am saying, that this is by no means a done deal. It's simple, but I do not expect you to understand. As of now, no chance of anymore orders considering what is going on in India. No Oxygen but money for Rafales? No chance. Enjoy.




nobody said it's,a,done deal .
that is,fabrication of the truth 
we,are all expecting a likely follow on order

why 
because,our air forces chiefs,have,openly admitted a desire for more 
we,have the mmrca which has Rafale as favourite for deal.if it happens 
we have French media offering and encouraging second order..
yes your correct it's not signed 
we are merely suggesting it's highly likely 

a lot bit like your claims of more thunders,yet you have only ordered 30 new ones,from China in block 3 version

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## The Maverick

Yasser76 said:


> 2ND TIME ASKING. PROVIDE ONE LINK TO ADDITIONAL RAFALE ORDER.



India-France-Sale Of More Rafales, Scorpenes & Naval Helicopters On Table - Global Defence News 

Not only Rafales but 6 more french submarines possibly enlarged Scorpene Or even Sufferen Barracuda

India To Buy 36 Additional French Rafale Jets: Report (defenseworld.net) 

You see Yasser all over global defense news the talk of rafale and india has been going for some time .

Its nothing new ............ It will happen its WHEN not IF

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## MirageBlue

IAF's No.101 'Falcons' squadron is set to be resurrected at Hasimara AFS with the delivery of 4 Rafales..

link



> *India set to resurrect '101 squadron' at Hashimara base with 4 more Rafale jets*
> *
> At the end of May, the Air Force will have 24 Rafale fighter jets in India, with another seven kept for training purposes in France and only five more to be handed over before the two squadrons are complete.*
> 
> With another batch of four Rafale fighters landing at Ambala from Merignac-Bordeaux airbase in France on May 19-20, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is all set to resurrect the 101 “Falcons of Chamb” squadron at Hashimara in West Bengal even as advance units have already moved into the new base.
> 
> 
> While the exact date of Rafale landing in India will be determined by availability of mid-air refuellers of the UAE Air Force and weather conditions, it is quite evident that the full deliveries of 36 aircraft will be completed well before April 2022 as announced by Union defence minister Rajnath Singh in Parliament. At the end of May, the IAF will have 24 Rafale fighter jets in India, with another seven kept for training purposes in France and only five more to be handed over before the two squadrons are complete.
> 
> The last five aircraft may be delivered in the second-half of 2021 as Egypt has placed an order of 30 Rafale fighters.


----------



## MirageBlue

2 IAF Rafale DH RB 002 and RB004 twin seaters taking off from Merignac, France.

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## The Maverick

those,rafales look.stunning


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## MirageBlue

3 more Rafales have landed in India and will be handed over the new No.101 'Falcons' squadron to be based at Hasimara in West Bengal. 



> Three Rafale aircraft arrived in India a short while ago, after a direct ferry from #IstresAirBase, France. IAF deeply appreciates the support by UAE Air Force for in-flight refuelling during the non-stop ferry.



Twitter link

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## MirageBlue

35 Rafale fighters to be delivered to IAF by this year end. The last one, which was the test-bed for the ISE (India Specific Enhancements) will be delivered to the IAF in January 2022.

Basically the French have compressed the overall delivery timeline by more than 6 months. 

France to deliver 35 Rafales by 2021 end, a solo Rafale will join in Jan 2022



> France will have delivered a total of 35 omni-role Rafale fighters by end-2021 to India with a last fighter making a solo journey to soon to be activated Hashimara air base in north Bengal in January 2022. Already 26 fighters have been delivered with 24 landed in India and remaining two kept for IAF pilot and technician training in France.
> 
> 
> Given the reliability of strategic ally France, the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Indian Navy have evinced keen interest in Rafale platform due to its weight to power ratio and maritime strike capabilities. Apparently, the IAF leadership wants to acquire another 36 Rafales in future and the Navy is looking at Rafale-M as a fighter option onboard INS Vikrant (Indigenous aircraft carrier-1), to be commissioned next year.
> 
> The induction of Rafale into western and eastern theatre has force multiplied Indian war making capabilities as the French fighter is armed with the longest range air-to-air Meteor missile in the sub-continent, Hammer air to ground smart munition and long range SCALP air to ground weapon. The Hammer missile, which has been acquired by India under emergency purchases, can be released at a height of mere 500 feet to hit a high altitude target more than 70 km away. The missile hugs the terrain and then climbs to a height of over 4000 metres before striking the target from a top down action. The Indian Rafales carry specially modified Hammer missiles due to high altitude targets, mountainous terrain and Chinese recently acquired Russian S-400 air defence systems. In fact, the French have offered to jointly develop Hammer and Meteor missiles with India with extended range and heavier payload.

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## MirageBlue

The 2 pilots to the left most are likely from No.17 'Golden Arrows' squadron. They've both been ferry pilots for quite a few of the IAF's Rafales from France. One of them, second from left, was a former MiG-21 pilot, last name Sidhu as a I remember. I recall seeing him in a documentary on IAF MiG-21s.

The one to the right most is Grp Cpt Neeraj 'Jammy' Jhamb the new CO of No.101 'Falcons' squadron, which is being re-formed on the Rafale after retiring it's old MiG-21s.

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## MirageBlue

Twitter link


> Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria, CAS formally inducted Rafale aircraft into No. 101 Sqn at AFS Hasimara in Eastern Air Command (EAC) on 28 Jul. The event included a flypast and a traditional water cannon salute.





> Recalling the glorious history of 101 Sqn, CAS said that he had no doubt that the Sqn would dominate when ever & where ever required & ensure that the adversary would always be intimidated by their sheer presence.

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## MirageBlue

IAF has received 26 Rafales from France so far, out of the total 36 ordered. Which means that the second Rafale squadron No. 101 'Falcons' has 8 Rafales already. 

Word is that the IAF has started the necessary paperwork for processing a follow-on order for 36 more Rafales.

India has received 26 Rafales till date - Govt

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## BON PLAN

MirageBlue said:


> Word is that the IAF has started the necessary paperwork for processing a follow-on order for 36 more Rafales.


It is rumored since so many time....

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## MirageBlue

BON PLAN said:


> It is rumored since so many time....



IAF's Vice Air Chief Marshal had stated in the past that once all 36 Rafales were delivered they would take up the case for any additional Rafales. Now that the Rafales are in service and one squadron is fully operational, they are likely taking up the actual paper work with the Ministry of Defence, rather than just saying it in interviews. 

In a democracy with a massive bureaucracy like India, there are dozens of processes to be followed and approvals that are needed for a file/case to move forward to the CCS (Cabinet Committee on Security) which needs to approve the need for these 36 and then give them to go ahead. It will take time unfortunately.

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## Hawkeye1

So now is it safe to assume that Indian navy won't be getting Rafales for INS Vikrant as its lift is short for them.


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## MirageBlue

Hawkeye1 said:


> So now is it safe to assume that Indian navy won't be getting Rafales for INS Vikrant as its lift is short for them.



From what it seems, the IN is not going ahead with the plan to import 57 naval fighters and will instead move ahead with the plan to work on the indigenous TEDBF. But it is still not fully clear or confirmed.

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## Black Tornado

MirageBlue said:


> From what it seems, the IN is not going ahead with the plan to import 57 naval fighters and will instead move ahead with the plan to work on the indigenous TEDBF. But it is still not fully clear or confirmed.


12 MiG-29K and 10 LCA-Navy and the rest Helos.


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## Ali_Baba

MirageBlue said:


> Twitter link



Looks like the "Rafale" pilot is confused about what kind of plane he is flying juding by his Su30MKI patch ....  ......


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## BON PLAN

Hawkeye1 said:


> So now is it safe to assume that Indian navy won't be getting Rafales for INS Vikrant as its lift is short for them.


So is SH18.
=> Mig 29 for ever.


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## MirageBlue

Ali_Baba said:


> Looks like the "Rafale" pilot is confused about what kind of plane he is flying juding by his Su30MKI patch ....  ......



Obviously an ex-Su-30MKI pilot. Common enough to see pilots with experience on another type wearing a patch from their previous squadrons.

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## Foinikas

You know what the problem is? Every page and article about the Rafale is either made or spammed by Indians now. 
You go on google and type "Rafale" or anything related to it and most of the infographics,articles and photos are from Indian sources. I even found an article saying "It will take 10 hours from France to India for the Rafales to arrive". You go on youtube and they invade almost every video about the Rafale with comments.
"We have it too". I checked Dassault's group on Instagram and there were Indians spamming photos "We are waiting for it" or "thank you we want this we love France from India" etc.
I tried to find good infographics about it...and they put their own with titles like "WHY IT WILL GIVE THE IAF THE EDGE". 
They even invaded Greek videos on youtube stirring up trouble between Greeks and Turks. 
"Greek Indian alliance we fight Turkey/Pak" wtf? 
"Love to Greece from India we are world's oldest civilizations"
"Haha Turkey/Pak now will be destroyed" 
and every stupidity you can find...

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## BON PLAN

*What about SPECTRA? Can you fly safely in the forbidden airspace?*









RAFALE unchained – taistelutestattu Rafale Suomelle? - Siivet


Siivet-lehti käsittelee kattavasti Suomen HX-hävittäjähankintaan liittyviä kysymyksiä ja perehtyy vaihtoehtoina oleviin koneisiin. Siivet-lehden numerossa 2016/4 uppouduimme ranskalaiseen Dassault Rafale -monitoimihävittäjään, joka on yksi hävittäjähankinnan...




siivet.fi





Former Rafale pilot Joseph Barraco answers:
We have proof of that. We have faced the most difficult defences, such as the Russian S-300. The latest MACE (Multidomain Airborne Cyber and Electronic warfare) exercise included the Rafale, Typhoon, Hornet, Growler and Gripen.

The Finnish Exercise Manager said at the press briefing that the Rafale was the best of the exercise. It is not just SPECTRA, but many capabilities. The SPECTRA is part of the Survivability Capability, as are the two engines and the AGCAS. The problem is that we cannot talk about SPECTRA. It is difficult to explain the power of the system. But it has a status that everybody knows.

I have worked with Growlers, which are pretty much the same but different. We did the same mission, but in a different way. We deal with the whole spectrum of targeting. SPECTRA is part of sensor fusion and is designed for passive targeting. It is part of the stealth aircraft detection system. It does targeting, jamming, protection and information sharing.

One of the characteristics of the system is its adaptability. If you are stealthy, you always use the same tactics, because it only protects you in one way. Stealth is a geometric feature. It's not 360 degrees, so it's predictable. If the radars are operating on a different frequency or in a different direction, they will detect you. The Rafale can operate with great flexibility and use different systems and tactics," says Barraco.

******

*Flying & fighting in the Dassault Rafale: Interview with a Rafale combat veteran*









Flying & fighting in the Dassault Rafale: Interview with a Rafale combat veteran


From the perilous deck of an aircraft carrier, Pierre-Henri ‘Até’ Chuet took the Dassault Rafale M into combat in Iraq. We spoke to him to find out more about the Rafale, a remarkable …




hushkit.net

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## mig25

BON PLAN said:


> *What about SPECTRA? Can you fly safely in the forbidden airspace?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RAFALE unchained – taistelutestattu Rafale Suomelle? - Siivet
> 
> 
> Siivet-lehti käsittelee kattavasti Suomen HX-hävittäjähankintaan liittyviä kysymyksiä ja perehtyy vaihtoehtoina oleviin koneisiin. Siivet-lehden numerossa 2016/4 uppouduimme ranskalaiseen Dassault Rafale -monitoimihävittäjään, joka on yksi hävittäjähankinnan...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> siivet.fi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Former Rafale pilot Joseph Barraco answers:
> We have proof of that. We have faced the most difficult defences, such as the Russian S-300. The latest MACE (Multidomain Airborne Cyber and Electronic warfare) exercise included the Rafale, Typhoon, Hornet, Growler and Gripen.
> 
> The Finnish Exercise Manager said at the press briefing that the Rafale was the best of the exercise. It is not just SPECTRA, but many capabilities. The SPECTRA is part of the Survivability Capability, as are the two engines and the AGCAS. The problem is that we cannot talk about SPECTRA. It is difficult to explain the power of the system. But it has a status that everybody knows.
> 
> I have worked with Growlers, which are pretty much the same but different. We did the same mission, but in a different way. We deal with the whole spectrum of targeting. SPECTRA is part of sensor fusion and is designed for passive targeting. It is part of the stealth aircraft detection system. It does targeting, jamming, protection and information sharing.
> 
> One of the characteristics of the system is its adaptability. If you are stealthy, you always use the same tactics, because it only protects you in one way. Stealth is a geometric feature. It's not 360 degrees, so it's predictable. If the radars are operating on a different frequency or in a different direction, they will detect you. The Rafale can operate with great flexibility and use different systems and tactics," says Barraco.
> 
> ******
> 
> *Flying & fighting in the Dassault Rafale: Interview with a Rafale combat veteran*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flying & fighting in the Dassault Rafale: Interview with a Rafale combat veteran
> 
> 
> From the perilous deck of an aircraft carrier, Pierre-Henri ‘Até’ Chuet took the Dassault Rafale M into combat in Iraq. We spoke to him to find out more about the Rafale, a remarkable …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hushkit.net



PAF already has a plan and is ready to surprise India according to several posters here. The PL-15 mounted on JF-17s is a known Rafale killer on PDF. 

No point discussing things here. It's sad that the inflated egos that go around here will not let you have any meaningful discussions. 

Expect no replies to your post here!

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## BON PLAN

mig25 said:


> PAF already has a plan and is ready to surprise India according to several posters here. The PL-15 mounted on JF-17s is a known Rafale killer on PDF.
> 
> No point discussing things here. It's sad that the inflated egos that go around here will not let you have any meaningful discussions.
> 
> Expect no replies to your post here!


PL15 Rafale killer : maybe on PDF.... what is important is on a battle field.
PL15 is better than PL10 for sure, but what else?
Inflated ego? where? when? 
I need no special answer. I give some information. In this case it came from a former pilot of Rafale M, with experience in Lybian air battle.

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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> former pilot of Rafale



..a former Rafale pilot now employed by Dassault. I'd take his words with a huge dollop of salt.
He says Rafale defeated _"difficult" _ S300's, Israeli's do that before breakfast each day and twice on a Sunday with their ageing F-16's

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## SQ8

dbc said:


> ..a former Rafale pilot now employed by Dassault. I'd take his words with a huge dollop of salt.
> He says Rafale defeated _"difficult" _ S300's, Israeli's do that before breakfast each day and twice on a Sunday with their ageing F-16's


They are supposed to be salesperson’s as well along with an aspect of national pride. Which is why that “kill” against the F-22 was touted more than any repeat press even though soft deck rule violations were done in that engagement.

That doesn’t mean the Rafale isn’t a beast of an aircraft but that it isn’t the next best thing to sliced bread.

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## Foinikas

mig25 said:


> PAF already has a plan and is ready to surprise India according to several posters here. The PL-15 mounted on JF-17s is a known Rafale killer on PDF.


Turks are saying the same ever since it was announced that we're getting 18 Rafale F3R.
Suddenly you had guys like MMM-E say they will turn them into heaps of trash with the S-400s,others saying "we're building TFX 5th generation fighter and Mius" and futuristic stuff.

Then again,they were bragging for about 10 years about getting the F-35 and after they got kicked from the program they started going like "we didn't need that bad aircraft,we'll make a better one...haha".

🙄

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## dbc

SQ8 said:


> They are supposed to be salesperson’s as well along with an aspect of national pride. Which is why that “kill” against the F-22 was touted more than any repeat press even though soft deck rule violations were done in that engagement.
> 
> That doesn’t mean the Rafale isn’t a beast of an aircraft but that it isn’t the next best thing to sliced bread.



..for me its tantamount to false marketing. Especially the claim that SPECTRA is better than an aircraft specifically designed to be LO. Against a near peer adversary SPECTRA is going to be a damp squib, plus I don't understand why anyone believes an emitter like SPECTRA will contribute to LO. How stupid does one have to be to argue the physics of that reasoning? Especially considering the claim is being made by a 'former Rafale pilot'...🙄🥴

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## SQ8

dbc said:


> ..for me its tantamount to false marketing. Especially the claim that SPECTRA is better than an aircraft specifically designed to be LO. Against a near peer adversary SPECTRA is going to be a damp squib, plus I don't understand why anyone believes an emitter like SPECTRA will contribute to LO. How stupid does one have to be to argue the physics of that reasoning? Especially considering the claim is being made by a 'former Rafale pilot'...🙄🥴


If one takes the distributed sensors out of the picture (essentially antenna’s around the aircraft) - SPECTRA is NO better than AIDEWS, IDECM or EPAWSS. One can read through the public technical aspects of each and the capabilities are essentially the same(barring antennas and updated threat libraries which are nation specific)

Unfortunately, as with any user and producer of systems - its a matter of national pride and jingoism comes into play rather than true analysis.

Rumors on ATLC with the Desert Falcon vs the Rafale don’t paint such a rosy picture as pushed by the “ Rafale pilots”.

I can make statements all day that “everyone knows” or SPECTRA is all different and revolutionary. But rhino pilots have gone against Rafale Ms and red flags have happened with them. I do not know of one American pilot or British pilot that would trade their latest with the Rafale.

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## dbc

SQ8 said:


> If one takes the distributed sensors out of the picture (essentially antenna’s around the aircraft) - SPECTRA is NO better than AIDEWS, IDECM or EPAWSS. One can read through the public technical aspects of each and the capabilities are essentially the same(barring antennas and updated threat libraries which are nation specific)
> 
> Unfortunately, as with any user and producer of systems - its a matter of national pride and jingoism comes into play rather than true analysis.
> 
> Rumors on ATLC with the Desert Falcon vs the Rafale don’t paint such a rosy picture as pushed by the “ Rafale pilots”.
> 
> I can make statements all day that “everyone knows” or SPECTRA is all different and revolutionary. But rhino pilots have gone against Rafale Ms and red flags have happened with them. I do not know of one American pilot or British pilot that would trade their latest with the Rafale.



Rafale carries a lot of payload and is exceptionally good at low altitude ingress. In a way, its combat niche is similar to the much larger B1-B Lancer. Similar sensor suit to detect hostile emitters and skirt around ground threats and deliver the payload - this is where the Rafale truly shines. Is it the best at all missions - no, it is mediocre at most. It's a decent bird but not my first choice for a zombie apocalypse-my first choice for that eventuality is the A10-warthog.

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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> ..a former Rafale pilot now employed by Dassault. I'd take his words with a huge dollop of salt.


No. He work for himself. He made youtube video of all subject in link with planes.


dbc said:


> He says Rafale defeated _"difficult" _ S300's, Israeli's do that before breakfast each day and twice on a Sunday with their ageing F-16's


Strange ! During MACE electronic trainings the dedicated F16CJ were unable to deal with S300 when Rafale was the sole able to do....


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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> ..for me its tantamount to false marketing. Especially the claim that SPECTRA is better than an aircraft specifically designed to be LO. Against a near peer adversary SPECTRA is going to be a damp squib, plus I don't understand why anyone believes an emitter like SPECTRA will contribute to LO. How stupid does one have to be to argue the physics of that reasoning? Especially considering the claim is being made by a 'former Rafale pilot'...🙄🥴


Spectra is not a simple emitter. It's not without some good reasons that it's R&D phase cost 25% of the whole Rafale project.
It's goal is to reduce the effective range of any opponent radar, and after that to reduce the range in which it can elaborate a fire solution. 
Last trial was made few months ago by Egyptian in a training Su35 vs Rafale.

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## serenity

Foinikas said:


> You know what the problem is? Every page and article about the Rafale is either made or spammed by Indians now.
> You go on google and type "Rafale" or anything related to it and most of the infographics,articles and photos are from Indian sources. I even found an article saying "It will take 10 hours from France to India for the Rafales to arrive". You go on youtube and they invade almost every video about the Rafale with comments.
> "We have it too". I checked Dassault's group on Instagram and there were Indians spamming photos "We are waiting for it" or "thank you we want this we love France from India" etc.
> I tried to find good infographics about it...and they put their own with titles like "WHY IT WILL GIVE THE IAF THE EDGE".
> They even invaded Greek videos on youtube stirring up trouble between Greeks and Turks.
> "Greek Indian alliance we fight Turkey/Pak" wtf?
> "Love to Greece from India we are world's oldest civilizations"
> "Haha Turkey/Pak now will be destroyed"
> and every stupidity you can find...



My friend this is not even 1% of extent of Indian craziness and noise making. At least this stuff you mentioned is calm and positive lol. They love causing trouble and stirring complex things and making everyone more riled up. It's because India has many English speaking people also contributing to world's greatest collection of fake news and government propaganda onto the world stage.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-50749764

This is just in influencing Europe's thinking. Their efforts for Asia region is even stronger.


BON PLAN said:


> Spectra is not a simple emitter. It's not without some good reasons that it's R&D phase cost 25% of the whole Rafale project.
> It's goal is to reduce the effective range of any opponent radar, and after that to reduce the range in which it can elaborate a fire solution.
> Last trial was made few months ago by Egyptian in a training Su35 vs Rafale.



SPECTRA performs passive signals collection and then active cancellation right? In general terms.

I would not think this general type of method is unique to just Rafale simply because the more modern American, Chinese, Russian and so on fighters do not give a public name for their equivalents. At least shaping and material stealth is also employed as another level. Using electronic attack both passive and active methods, there must be many types and older F-16 to compare with modern Rafale is a bit unfair. SAMs do not work well against US fighters not only because of avoiding them and performing SEAD and so on.


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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> Rafale carries a lot of payload and is exceptionally good at low altitude ingress. In a way, its combat niche is similar to the much larger B1-B Lancer


   what a nice joke, really. Are you serious?


serenity said:


> SAMs do not work well against US fighters not only because of avoiding them and performing SEAD and so on.


Also because since 30+ years there was no conflict with US jets (and european and russian and;..) against real deep SAM protected airspace.
Syria is not such an exemple. In Syria the sole real SAM integrated system is the russian one to protect Tartous and neither the US neither the Israelis tried to fight against.


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> Spectra is not a simple emitter. It's not without some good reasons that it's R&D phase cost 25% of the whole Rafale project.



Yes of course it is a black hole generator capable of destroying planets.Please take your garbage to an Indian forum. Thank you.

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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> Yes of course it is a black hole generator capable of destroying planets.Please take your garbage to an Indian forum. Thank you.


Egyptians have decided to purchase 30 more (and later up to 100 units) just after an exercise in which Su35 was unable to target the Rafale....
So not a death star, but something exactly doing what it was supposed to do.

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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> Yes of course it is a black hole generator capable of destroying planets.Please take your garbage to an Indian forum. Thank you.


*Threatened by Rafale aircraft, panicky Pakistan rushes to China to buy fighter jets and missiles*









Threatened by Rafale aircraft, panicky Pakistan rushes to China to buy fighter jets and missiles


Pakistan is panicking over Rafale jets and has rushed to China begging for help.




zeenews.india.com




Not a death star, no.

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## Windjammer

BON PLAN said:


> *Threatened by Rafale aircraft, panicky Pakistan rushes to China to buy fighter jets and missiles*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Threatened by Rafale aircraft, panicky Pakistan rushes to China to buy fighter jets and missiles
> 
> 
> Pakistan is panicking over Rafale jets and has rushed to China begging for help.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zeenews.india.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a death star, no.


So you allegedly claim that you are French but have an Indian source on the tip of your fingers.
No doubt some of you people will go to any level just to have a voice on PDF.
What combat record does the Rafale boost to have anyone concerned except bombing some Libyan ground targets with no air opposition.

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## BON PLAN

Windjammer said:


> So you allegedly claim that you are French but have an Indian source on the tip of your fingers.
> No doubt some of you people will go to any level just to have a voice on PDF.
> What combat record does the Rafale boost to have anyone concerned except bombing some Libyan ground targets with no air opposition.


I'm also on an indian forum, and a US one, and some french.
With the same nick name you can find me on https : // defence forum india.com/ on https ://www.strategic front.org/ on http://www.air-defense.net/forum/topic/20630-rafale/page/1465/?tab=comments#comment-1087121

The more information sources you have the better you are informed.

PS : Note that on this pak forum, I have to add some space in the internet adress if not it is written " ********* " to hide it. Never this kind of thing on an indian forum.

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## Windjammer

BON PLAN said:


> I'm also on an indian forum, and a US one, and some french.
> With the same nick name you can find me on https : // defence forum india.com/ on https ://www.strategic front.org/ on http://www.air-defense.net/forum/topic/20630-rafale/page/1465/?tab=comments#comment-1087121
> 
> The more information sources you have the better you are informed.


Yup, Indians patting and kissing their own backside will surely make you just as credible.

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## BON PLAN

Windjammer said:


> What combat record does the Rafale boost to have anyone concerned except bombing some Libyan ground targets with no air opposition.


There was SAM in Lybia.
a not known Rafale raid destroyed a Turkish air base in Lybia last year. Air base protected by SAM.

Not our fault if no one want to fight against a Dassault made fighter ! 
Note that the first F16 shooted down in air air was destroyed by a Greek Mirage 2000 during a dog fight...


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## Windjammer

BON PLAN said:


> There was SAM in Lybia.
> a not known Rafale raid destroyed a Turkish air base in Lybia last year. Air base protected by SAM.
> 
> Not our fault if no one want to fight against a Dassault made fighter !
> Note that the first F16 shooted down in air air was destroyed by a Greek Mirage 2000 during a dog fight...


There were also SAMs in IOK but look what happened......besides is the Rafale now going to be promoted to be called a SAM Dodger. 
And where does F-16 or Mirage-2000 come into a thread about Rafales except you are proving once again your real self.....India has Mirage-2000 while Pakistan flies F-16....Right,
So let me remind you that it were Indian Mirage-2000s that ran away from battle on 27.2.2019.

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## Foinikas

BON PLAN said:


> Note that the first F16 shooted down in air air was destroyed by a Greek Mirage 2000 during a dog fight...


That's true! 
@Windjammer sorry bro,I have to take the chance and upload the story of the dogfight

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## BON PLAN

Windjammer said:


> There were also SAMs in IOK but look what happened......besides is the Rafale now going to be promoted to be called a SAM Dodger.
> And where does F-16 or Mirage-2000 come into a thread about Rafales except you are proving once again your real self.....India has Mirage-2000 while Pakistan flies F-16....Right,
> So let me remind you that it were Indian Mirage-2000s that ran away from battle on 27.2.2019.


Egypt has M2000, as Qatar, UAE, Taiwan....
Yes M2000 ran away. Because they were supposed to be on a classical near peace time flight, ie without the full load of missile, as it's often the case in France (only the 30mm bullets in the cannon).
In this kind of suden attack, the advantage if for the attack who sole knows where and when.

Note that when they bombed in pak after that, no one for counter them.

If you have a doubt about my real country, find my self on this french forum, with more than 5000 posts : http://www.air-defense.net/forum/topic/20630-rafale/page/1898/ 6th post of the page...


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## Windjammer

BON PLAN said:


> Egypt has M2000, as Qatar, UAE, Taiwan....
> Yes M2000 ran away. Because they were supposed to be on a classical near peace time flight, ie without the full load of missile, as it's often the case in France (only the 30mm bullets in the cannon).
> In this kind of suden attack, the advantage if for the attack who sole knows where and when.
> 
> Note that when they bombed in pak after that, no one for counter them.
> 
> If you have a doubt about my real country, find my self on this french forum, with more than 5000 posts : http://www.air-defense.net/forum/topic/20630-rafale/page/1898/ 6th post of the page...


So after their failed misadventure with Spice Bombs the previous day, the next day the Indian Mirages were out leisurely on a sight seeing flight  ....you are a genius . While some expecting a response from the PAF were on armed CAP, others were scrambled upon detecting PAF assault but astonishingly both Mirages bugged out of the area ......both claiming Radar malfunction..... realistically the sight and news of an SU-30 getting an AMRAAM out of Blue and deep inside own airspace had everyone of IAF pilots scrambling for dear lives.....so find the facts before behaving like a blind leading blind....which is forte of the Indians.

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## Windjammer

Foinikas said:


> That's true!
> @Windjammer sorry bro,I have to take the chance and upload the story of the dogfight
> 
> View attachment 772629


I'm aware of the incident and read about it sometimes ago.....I never doubted it but what was the purpose of it being dragged here.


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## Foinikas

Windjammer said:


> I'm aware of the incident and read about it sometimes ago.....I never doubted it but what was the purpose of it being dragged here.


🤷‍♂️ I don't know. But you did make me wonder,why didn't the Indians use their Mirage 2000s in 2019?
The HAF pilots highly value them (and especially the Mirage 2000-5 Mk 2) because they came on top in the Aegean many times in the role of interception and dogfight.But then again,HAF are HAF pilots and IAF are IAF.
Maybe the Indians would be bad even with Rafales.


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## Windjammer

Foinikas said:


> 🤷‍♂️ I don't know. But you did make me wonder,why didn't the Indians use their Mirage 2000s in 2019?
> The HAF pilots highly value them (and especially the Mirage 2000-5 Mk 2) because they came on top in the Aegean many times in the role of interception and dogfight.But then again,HAF are HAF pilots and IAF are IAF.
> Maybe the Indians would be bad even with Rafales.


It's an old saying, a plane is only good as it's pilot.
They did try to use their Mirages to launch Israeli Spice bombs against a seminary which wildly fell off target into some woodland.....next day when PAF responded, two of the Indian mirages which were in the arena reported Radar malfunctions and ran away from the battle.
Before this, Indians use to boost that their SU-30 (which they lovingly called Asian Raptor) is an overkill of the PAF and it's meant for the Chinese Air Force....where as their MiG-29s are enough to take care of entire PAF.
And guess what....when the test came, no MiG-29 was visible and the so called Asian Raptor was re designated as the AMRAAM Dodger.

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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> Egyptians have decided to purchase 30 more (and later up to 100 units) just after an exercise in which Su35 was unable to target the Rafale....
> So not a death star, but something exactly doing what it was supposed to do.



100 Rafale awesome, congratulations perhaps you should learn Arabic and hop over to an Egyptian forum to plug more Rafales. More sure you don't give any for free this time.

Good bye...






Defense World


View News at Defense World




www.defenseworld.net

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## Windjammer

dbc said:


> 100 Rafale awesome, congratulations perhaps you should learn Arabic and hop over to an Egyptian forum to plug more Rafales. More sure you don't give any for free this time.
> 
> Good bye...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Defense World
> 
> 
> View News at Defense World
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defenseworld.net


Damn this is throwing even Walmart a challenge.....the best they can offer is buy one detergent and get second at half price.

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## Foinikas

dbc said:


> Defense World
> 
> 
> View News at Defense World
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defenseworld.net


Small correction,we are not getting any free stuff:










Windjammer said:


> Before this, Indians use to boost that their SU-30 (which they lovingly called Asian Raptor) is an overkill of the PAF and it's meant for the Chinese Air Force....where as their MiG-29s are enough to take care of entire PAF.
> And guess what....when the test came, no MiG-29 was visible and the so called Asian Raptor was re designated as the AMRAAM Dodger.


You know about a decade ago or so,before I became pro-Pakistan on the whole India vs Pakistan thing,
I had read on wikipedia about how the Mig-29 had locked on PAF F-16s. For some time that kind of remained in my head as if the Mig-29s had actually shot the F-16s down. But then when I read about it again I realized they had only gained a lock on them,supposedly from afar too,if I am not mistaken. They never fired and I thought that would be weird. Now that I checked the article again,that mention's been completely deleted,it's not there.

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## Windjammer

Foinikas said:


> Small correction,we are not getting any free stuff:
> 
> View attachment 772672
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know about a decade ago or so,before I became pro-Pakistan on the whole India vs Pakistan thing,
> I had read on wikipedia about how the Mig-29 had locked on PAF F-16s. For some time that kind of remained in my head as if the Mig-29s had actually shot the F-16s down. But then when I read about it again I realized they had only gained a lock on them,supposedly from afar too,if I am not mistaken. They never fired and I thought that would be weird. Now that I checked the article again,that mention's been completely deleted,it's not there.


The Indians even awarded that alleged pilot who later died in a crash.
You will find plenty of such gloating and self praise by Indians but you wouldn't find PAF boasting about when a pair of F-16s tailed 5 MiG-29s for 20 minutes who were completely unaware of the F-16s presence...that is until Indian GCI realised and warned the MiG pilots, who in turn jinxed so violently that they almost crashed into each other.....what is big deal about painting on an aircraft from own territory when no shooting is happening.....here's a USAF F-4 Phantom in the gunsight of a PAF Mirage...the feat was repeated with F-15 as well.


----------



## SQ8

Foinikas said:


> Small correction,we are not getting any free stuff:
> 
> View attachment 772672
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know about a decade ago or so,before I became pro-Pakistan on the whole India vs Pakistan thing,
> I had read on wikipedia about how the Mig-29 had locked on PAF F-16s. For some time that kind of remained in my head as if the Mig-29s had actually shot the F-16s down. But then when I read about it again I realized they had only gained a lock on them,supposedly from afar too,if I am not mistaken. They never fired and I thought that would be weird. Now that I checked the article again,that mention's been completely deleted,it's not there.


There is a lot of pilot factor as well involved - The PAF is also flying Dassault products and has used them very successfully. That also reflects on the attitude of the organization itself - the general(not universal) mentality of the human resource in how they approach their training , learning and application of skills along with general morale.

A much maligned video by Indians that talks about their first red flag does delve on that. They bought in su-30 MKIs thinking they would dominate especially in the WVR fights and they didn’t. Not because the MKI isn’t a wonderful machine but because the culture that pilots brought reflected one of internal “good vibes only” mentality and sycophancy throughout the leadership.

That doesn’t mean such careerists don’t exist in the USAF, ADA or PAF - but that the majority work on an ethos of organizational excellence (relative to their own sub-cultures, technology access,size and budget).

Bring that square to the Rafale - it is a very potent system that in the hands of well trained and led airforces can mow down most opposition in its way. However, lets say it is sold to a fictional country called Eshratia and even though the trainers from ADA come in to teach the Estatian AF on how to fly and fight with the Rafale - they find the Esratian pilots not of uniform skillset and their leadership mostly sticking to their own thoughts or nodding saying they’ve understood even if the ADA trainers suspect otherwise. In such a case, all of the ADA trainers knowledge on operating the Rafale along with knowledge on latest BVR combat tactics is likely to be absorbed by the most attentive and effective students but the others will follow the leadership trend of trying to get the badge. That leaves a force of Rafale’s essentially 20% fully capable of utilizing everything, 30% average with the rest not always sure how to use the jet best. 
Sending those pilots in combat against a pilot flying a F-16 block-30 pilot who is from an airforce where the culture nurtures/forces at least 50% of the pilots to be fully capable of utilizing their jet means that likely the Rafale will fail.

I always make it a point to read the mishap updates in Air Forces Monthly because it provides a good window into pilot mentality and training. At the end, SPECTRA will automatically classify the bandits using ELINT and inputs from NTCR - it will start dRfM jamming against bandit(s) just as AIDEWS does on the F-16s but if the pilot flying it still manages to not read the cues correctly - they will become a fireball.

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## Foinikas

Windjammer said:


> The Indians even awarded that alleged pilot who later died in a crash.
> You will find plenty of such gloating and self praise by Indians but you wouldn't find PAF boasting about when a pair of F-16s tailed 5 MiG-29s for 20 minutes who were completely unaware of the F-16s presence...that is until Indian GCI realised and warned the MiG pilots, who in turn jinxed so violently that they almost crashed into each other.....what is big deal about painting on an aircraft from own territory when no shooting is happening.....here's a USAF F-4 Phantom in the gunsight of a PAF Mirage...the feat was repeated with F-15 as well.
> View attachment 772678


I know Pakistani pilots are very professional. And from what I've read,many of the Israelis shot down in the Middle-East were actually by Pakistani pilots flying Arab aircraft.

The awarded Indian pilot,you mean the moustachio '70s **** actor guy,right? 


SQ8 said:


> owever, lets say it is sold to a fictional country called Eshratia and even though the trainers from ADA come in to teach the Estatian AF on how to fly and fight with the Rafale - they find the Esratian pilots not of uniform skillset and their leadership mostly sticking to their own thoughts or nodding saying they’ve understood even if the ADA trainers suspect otherwise. In such a case, all of the ADA trainers knowledge on operating the Rafale along with knowledge on latest BVR combat tactics is likely to be absorbed by the most attentive and effective students but the others will follow the leadership trend of trying to get the badge. That leaves a force of Rafale’s essentially 20% fully capable of utilizing everything, 30% average with the rest not always sure how to use the jet best.


Well yes. Kind of like tanks and Arabs let's say  
That's why I feel that a masterpiece like the Rafale is wasted being sold to the Indians.

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## Suriya

Okay, India is going to buy 18 or 24 more Rafale jets to reach the number 54 or 60. But that's it and not single more beyond that. We have AMCA to invest in and IAF is also commited to AMCA.



dbc said:


> Yes of course it is a black hole generator capable of destroying planets.Please take your garbage to an Indian forum. Thank you.


American dbc mem getting lot of applause here for anti-India remarks.
I'm sure Pakistanis remember Ayub khan's and Kissinger's quotes about American friendship, but reminding them is never a bad thing.


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## BON PLAN

Windjammer said:


> It's an old saying, a plane is only good as it's pilot.
> They did try to use their Mirages to launch Israeli Spice bombs against a seminary which wildly fell off target into some woodland.....next day when PAF responded, two of the Indian mirages which were in the arena reported Radar malfunctions and ran away from the battle.
> Before this, Indians use to boost that their SU-30 (which they lovingly called Asian Raptor) is an overkill of the PAF and it's meant for the Chinese Air Force....where as their MiG-29s are enough to take care of entire PAF.
> And guess what....when the test came, no MiG-29 was visible and the so called Asian Raptor was re designated as the AMRAAM Dodger.


Old gen Mirage 2000 were very effective during The Kargil event. Why do you imagine the newer "-5" be less effective ?


dbc said:


> 100 Rafale awesome, congratulations perhaps you should learn Arabic and hop over to an Egyptian forum to plug more Rafales. More sure you don't give any for free this time.
> 
> Good bye...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Defense World
> 
> 
> View News at Defense World
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defenseworld.net


You are miss informed.
6 brand new Rafale, and 12 x 2nd hand for a total of 2.5 € billion (wih a weapon package). Do you really see Greece purchasing 6 plane for 2.5 € billions? Be serious. Use the white material between your two ears please.


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## Windjammer

BON PLAN said:


> Old gen Mirage 2000 were very effective during The Kargil event. Why do you imagine the newer "-5" be less effective ?



Yea very effective indeed.....bombing in own territory against well demarcated positions and without any air opposition whatsoever....even then with assistance from US and Israel. 
Better come up with some worthy achievement Indian fanboy.


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## drunken-monke

Windjammer said:


> Yea very effective indeed.....bombing in own territory against well demarcated positions and without any air opposition whatsoever....even then with assistance from US and Israel.
> Better come up with some worthy achievement Indian fanboy.


And bringing the crap out of NLI infiltrators.. PAF refused to engage IAF.. What was the reason??

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## Windjammer

drunken-monke said:


> And bringing the crap out of NLI infiltrators.. PAF refused to engage IAF.. What was the reason??


Since you have a habit of running in circles....why don't you answer this....
Pakistan Army intruded into Kargil, slaughtered hundred of Indian soldiers.....what stopped IAF from carrying out strikes on targets on Pakistan side of the border.
Your IAF carried out missions within it's side of LOC....the only time it crossed inadvertently or deliberately...well you got your answer in the shapes of these two.

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## VkdIndian

drunken-monke said:


> PAF refused to engage IAF.. What was the reason??


Finest level of coordination and joint-manship between PA, PN and PAF. Don’t even talk about the BVR edge that IAF possessed at that time. Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail has written all about it in his blog. Much to the distaste of the fanboys.


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## BON PLAN

Windjammer said:


> Yea very effective indeed.....bombing in own territory against well demarcated positions and without any air opposition whatsoever....even then with assistance from US and Israel.
> Better come up with some worthy achievement Indian fanboy.


Whatever the situation, Kargil remains indian thanks to M2000, and despite pak opposition. That's all.

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## Windjammer

BON PLAN said:


> Whatever the situation, Kargil remains indian thanks to M2000, and despite pak opposition. That's all.


Yea Thanks to Mirages. LOL.  



rediff.com: Pakistan occupying six Indian peaks, claims MP


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## Suriya

BON PLAN said:


> Whatever the situation, Kargil remains indian thanks to M2000, and despite pak opposition. That's all.





Windjammer said:


> Yea Thanks to Mirages. LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> rediff.com: Pakistan occupying six Indian peaks, claims MP


LoL U think Pakistan's whole objective for Kargil operation where it lost so many soldiers was to capture six worthless peaks who are surrounded by dozen odd Indian held peaks?

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## Windjammer

Suriya said:


> LoL U think Pakistan's whole objective for Kargil operation where it lost so many soldiers was to capture six worthless peaks who are surrounded by dozen odd Indian held peaks?


Oh so you now admit that Pakistan does holds six peaks, better delete your comments before your cousins crusify you. 
If the likes of US hadn't saved your bacon the Kargil coffin scandal inquiry would still be fresh in your minds.


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## dbc

Suriya said:


> American dbc mem getting lot of applause here for anti-India remarks.



anti-India? is Rafale Indian? 
Or, is @BON PLAN Indian? Not sure why you consider my advise to Bon Plan anti India?
I‘m French, American and British.

FYI, I make anti US, anti- France, anti Pakistan and anti China remarks as well. 
may be I’m just an anti person or maybe there is more wrong with India and Pakistan than most other places?

Did you ever stop and think about that?

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## MirageBlue

The tip of the IAF's spear..

Nearly all of No.17 'Golden Arrows' on the tarmac at Ambala AFS..only 1 twin seater, remaining 15 single seaters.

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## BON PLAN

36th Rafale to have all India specific enhancements, arrives Jan 2022


Such is the fighting capability of French Rafale that its one squadron of 18 aircraft is equivalent to 2.5 squadrons (45 fighters) of Su-30 MKI in terms of turn-around and maintenance.




www.hindustantimes.com





France will deliver three Rafale fighters per month for the next three months with the last of the 36 contracted omni-role fighters carrying all 13 India specific enhancements to be delivered in January 2022.

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## BON PLAN

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1436967432040632322Greece is the third Rafale customer to order twice the bird.

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## BON PLAN

*IAF gives glimpse of stealth cruise missile on Rafale?*









IAF gives glimpse of stealth cruise missile on Rafale?


The Scalp is manufactured by European defence giant MBDA




www.theweek.in


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## Lord Of Gondor

Scalp on the Centerline!
Lovely images by the IAF

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## MirageBlue

IAF Rafale



> Need for Speed!! The IAF Rafale did an insane low level, high speed pass at 0.9 mach at AFS Hindon yesterday as part of the IAF Day rehersal.



Link

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## MirageBlue

Wow!


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## BON PLAN

29 Rafale in India this evening.









Three more Rafale fighters to arrive from France


New Delhi [India], October 13 (ANI): In a major boost for the Indian Air Force during the ongoing military standoff with China, three more Rafales will arrive in India's Jamnagar in Gujarat on Wednesday evening from France.




www.aninews.in


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## STREANH

French journal Mediapart claims new evidence of kickbacks in Rafale deal


The online journal published alleged fake invoices that it claimed enabled Dassault Aviation to pay at least €7.5mn in kickbacks to a middleman to help it secure the ₹59,000 cr deal with India for 36 Rafale jets




www.hindustantimes.com

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## BON PLAN

STREANH said:


> French journal Mediapart claims new evidence of kickbacks in Rafale deal
> 
> 
> The online journal published alleged fake invoices that it claimed enabled Dassault Aviation to pay at least €7.5mn in kickbacks to a middleman to help it secure the ₹59,000 cr deal with India for 36 Rafale jets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hindustantimes.com


This french tabloid is so pityfull...


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## MirageBlue

UAE just signed a contract for 80 Rafale F4 from Dassault. A huge win for Dassault and MBDA, it will sustain the Merignac supply line for more than a decade, along with the order for 30 more Rafales from Egypt. 

Meanwhile, the IAF is continuing to press for the 114 MRFA contest that really isn't going anywhere. The second order of 36 Rafales isn't likely to materialize either. 

What is going to happen soon is an order for 12 Su-30MKIs and 21 MiG-29s to be upgraded in India to the MiG-29UPG standard.


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## BON PLAN

MirageBlue said:


> UAE just signed a contract for 80 Rafale F4 from Dassault. A huge win for Dassault and MBDA, it will sustain the Merignac supply line for more than a decade, along with the order for 30 more Rafales from Egypt.
> 
> Meanwhile, the IAF is continuing to press for the 114 MRFA contest that really isn't going anywhere. The second order of 36 Rafales isn't likely to materialize either.
> 
> What is going to happen soon is an order for 12 Su-30MKIs and 21 MiG-29s to be upgraded in India to the MiG-29UPG standard.


I think you are wrong.
India has seen with M2000 fleet the limitations of a so small fleet and also how good are the Dassault birds (continued with Rafale).
The indian Rafale fleet will never stand at 36. Never.


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## jk007

MirageBlue said:


> UAE just signed a contract for 80 Rafale F4 from Dassault. A huge win for Dassault and MBDA, it will sustain the Merignac supply line for more than a decade, along with the order for 30 more Rafales from Egypt.
> 
> Meanwhile, the IAF is continuing to press for the 114 MRFA contest that really isn't going anywhere. The second order of 36 Rafales isn't likely to materialize either.
> 
> What is going to happen soon is an order for 12 Su-30MKIs and 21 MiG-29s to be upgraded in India to the MiG-29UPG standard.



Why is India going for su-30 + mig-29, when the PM himself said "agar rafale hota.....".

Don't make sense for me. Please enlighten if you can crack this?

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## Blacklight

jk007 said:


> Why is India going for su-30 + mig-29, when the PM himself said *"agar rafale hota.....".*
> 
> Don't make sense for me. Please enlighten if you can crack this?


Read the line, behind this line "Whatever adds to my overseas accounts"


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## MirageBlue

BON PLAN said:


> I think you are wrong.
> India has seen with M2000 fleet the limitations of a so small fleet and also how good are the Dassault birds (continued with Rafale).
> The indian Rafale fleet will never stand at 36. Never.



It won't be just 36 for all time. But it will not be 114 + 36 either. The UAE deal gives us an idea on how expensive Rafale F4 will be. 14 billion euros for 80 Rafale F4s, which when extrapolated to 114 plus an assembly line in India would easily cross $25 billion. there is no way the GoI will ever approve such a monumentally expensive deal. 

But the IAF is insisting on continuing with trying to get the 114 MRFA deal going, so the GoI will let them continue. 

Instead, the chances of getting 36 or 48 more Rafales would have been a lot better. More affordable and deliveries could have been expedited.


jk007 said:


> Why is India going for su-30 + mig-29, when the PM himself said "agar rafale hota.....".
> 
> Don't make sense for me. Please enlighten if you can crack this?



The Su-30MKIs are the last attrition replacements before the Su-30MKI line is closed at HAL. After that HAL Nashik switches to building other types or (more likely) to the Super-30 upgrade and MRO.

MiG-29s, well the IAF has been quite pleased with the MiG-29UPG program. The type is serving well with it being the favoured type even in Ladakh. A detachment of MiG-29UPGs is now almost permanently based at Leh AFS. 

Russia offered un-used MiG-29 airframes that could be upgraded to the UPG standard at ~40 million per airframe. Given how badly the IAF needs fighters, this was a welcome opportunity. So the airframes were evaluated, found to be in suitable condition and the IAF agreed to the deal. 

the MiG-29UPG will continue into 2035, with suitable upgrades including the Astra BVRAAM. Makes sense to buy these 21 to add a 4th squadron of MiG-29UPGs. 

There are rumours that the IAF requested that these MiG-29UPGs be equipped with AESA radars. Not sure if that will be done or not, but given that HAL is working on a program to upgrade the Navy's MiG-29Ks with HAL built Mission Computer and Litening LDP, it is possible that they could do the same for these MiG-29s as well in addition to the UPG upgrade.

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## BON PLAN

MirageBlue said:


> It won't be just 36 for all time. But it will not be 114 + 36 either. The UAE deal gives us an idea on how expensive Rafale F4 will be. 14 billion euros for 80 Rafale F4s, which when extrapolated to 114 plus an assembly line in India would easily cross $25 billion. there is no way the GoI will ever approve such a monumentally expensive deal.
> 
> But the IAF is insisting on continuing with trying to get the 114 MRFA deal going, so the GoI will let them continue.
> 
> Instead, the chances of getting 36 or 48 more Rafales would have been a lot better. More affordable and deliveries could have been expedited.


As M2000-9, the F4 Rafale for UAE will probably be the best of their class. Why not a more powerfull engine? Why not extra goodies? maybe some air bases accomodation? etc.... It add cost.
Never forget that the 12 last Rafale for Qatar were billed 1.1 billion.... 

MMRCA2 ? It's a cold case, for every competitors. The next move will be a 2nd 36 Rafale batch, followed in some years by a third one maybe smaller. No F15X, no F21, no SH18, no EF2000.

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## Super Falcon

Rafale is becoming a very succesful jet in fighter jet market

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## Foinikas

The 6th Rafale has been delivered to the HAF in France today by the way.









Παραδίδεται σήμερα το έκτο Rafale "413" στην Πολεμική Αεροπορία - Δούρειος Ίππος


Ολοκληρώνονται σήμερα οι παραδόσεις της πρώτης παρτίδος έξι μαχητικών αεροσκαφών Rafale στην Πολεμική Αεροπορία, βάσει των προνοιών



doureios.com

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## Super Falcon

Rafales are superior due to cutting edge tech they offer than any jet in oaf

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## Super Falcon

Rafales are far superior than our J 10 because rafales have prooven battle record


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## Shah_Deu

Super Falcon said:


> Rafales are far superior than our J 10 because rafales have prooven battle record


F-35's also dont have any proven battle record either, so the Mig21's of Injuns must be better by your logic.

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## Ali_Baba

Corruption claims threaten Emmanuel Macron’s fighter jet deal


Claims by defence consultant against Thales brings scrutiny to French arms deals with India




www.telegraph.co.uk





Some truly shocking claims to white wash payments to Indian middlemen under the umbrella of consultancy fees via companies in Africa...


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## serenity

Super Falcon said:


> Rafales are far superior than our J 10 because rafales have prooven battle record



Being able to fly around in Libya is not battle proven. A Mig-21 can do that as well.

The only truly battle proven 4th generations that can be called that to some degree is really the JF-17, Mirage, F-16, F-15, F-14, and F-18. And even then these are really against much weaker, smaller, very poor opponents with at least half generation older aircraft and weak to average air defences.

Even the Su-30MKI and Mig-29 and Mirage 2000 would be said as proven as useless if we take historic conflict examples since those three fighters in IAF was useless against PAF last time there was a combat involving them.

So basically for 4th generations.

Half proven = F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18, some Mirage, and JF-17
Not proven = EF typhoon, Rafale, J-10, J-11, J-15, J-16, Gripen, Tejas, Su-35
Proven useless supposedly (in limited specific situation combat) = Su-30MKI, Mig-29, Mirage 2000 of IAF

Basically this shows how shallow this whole "proven and unproven" nonsense is.

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## siegecrossbow

serenity said:


> Being able to fly around in Libya is not battle proven. A Mig-21 can do that as well.
> 
> The only truly battle proven 4th generations that can be called that to some degree is really the JF-17, Mirage, F-16, F-15, F-14, and F-18. And even then these are really against much weaker, smaller, very poor opponents with at least half generation older aircraft and weak to average air defences.
> 
> Even the Su-30MKI and Mig-29 and Mirage 2000 would be said as proven as useless if we take historic conflict examples since those three fighters in IAF was useless against PAF last time there was a combat involving them.
> 
> So basically for 4th generations.
> 
> Half proven = F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18, some Mirage, and JF-17
> Not proven = EF typhoon, Rafale, J-10, J-11, J-15, J-16, Gripen, Tejas, Su-35
> Proven useless supposedly (in limited specific situation combat) = Su-30MKI, Mig-29, Mirage 2000 of IAF
> 
> Basically this shows how shallow this whole "proven and unproven" nonsense is.



The only noteworthy confirmed aerial kills of the past decade are a Su-22, a Mig-21, and two Su-24s. Let that sink.


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## Super Falcon

serenity said:


> Being able to fly around in Libya is not battle proven. A Mig-21 can do that as well.
> 
> The only truly battle proven 4th generations that can be called that to some degree is really the JF-17, Mirage, F-16, F-15, F-14, and F-18. And even then these are really against much weaker, smaller, very poor opponents with at least half generation older aircraft and weak to average air defences.
> 
> Even the Su-30MKI and Mig-29 and Mirage 2000 would be said as proven as useless if we take historic conflict examples since those three fighters in IAF was useless against PAF last time there was a combat involving them.
> 
> So basically for 4th generations.
> 
> Half proven = F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18, some Mirage, and JF-17
> Not proven = EF typhoon, Rafale, J-10, J-11, J-15, J-16, Gripen, Tejas, Su-35
> Proven useless supposedly (in limited specific situation combat) = Su-30MKI, Mig-29, Mirage 2000 of IAF
> 
> Basically this shows how shallow this whole "proven and unproven" nonsense is.


The time will tell technologocaly rafale is superior to thunder 

Remember thunder shoot smaller weaker mig things will be different against rafale


Shah_Deu said:


> F-35's also dont have any proven battle record either, so the Mig21's of Injuns must be better by your logic.


I think you are quating me wrong every fighter has its class


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## BON PLAN

It's now official : Indonesia inked a deal for 42 Rafale.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491665111676772354
Probably a first batch of 6 with 2021 funds, the next batch of 36 later.

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## INS_Vikrant

Foinikas said:


> The 6th Rafale has been delivered to the HAF in France today by the way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Παραδίδεται σήμερα το έκτο Rafale "413" στην Πολεμική Αεροπορία - Δούρειος Ίππος
> 
> 
> Ολοκληρώνονται σήμερα οι παραδόσεις της πρώτης παρτίδος έξι μαχητικών αεροσκαφών Rafale στην Πολεμική Αεροπορία, βάσει των προνοιών
> 
> 
> 
> doureios.com



In future would really look forward to IAF and HAF Rafales participating in joint exercise 😁

With last batch of Rafale jets arriving next week hopefully follow up orders will be placed soon


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## BON PLAN

serenity said:


> Half proven = F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18, some Mirage, and JF-17
> Not proven = EF typhoon, Rafale, J-10, J-11, J-15, J-16, Gripen, Tejas, Su-35
> Proven useless supposedly (in limited specific situation combat) = Su-30MKI, Mig-29, Mirage 2000 of IAF


sorry, not really.

Totally proven in air air : F14, F15, F16
Half proven in air air : F18, Mig 29, Su27 (M2000 ? it has shoot the first F16 destroyed in air to air engagement).
Not proven in air air : the other. 

Totally proven in air to ground : F15, F16, F18, Rafale, M2000
Half proven in air to ground : EF2000, mig and Su ?
Not proven in air to ground : all the other.


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## BON PLAN

Serbia is in talk to buy 6 Rafale...








La Serbie négocierait l'achat d'au moins 6 Rafale auprès de Dassault Aviation - Zone Militaire


En juillet 2020, le président Aleksandar Vučić, qui vient d'être réélu, avait plaidé pour un renforcement significatif des capacités militaires de son




www.opex360.com


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## Ali_Baba

Interesting as Croatia also ordered Rafales aswell last year : https://www.france24.com/en/europe/...12-french-fighter-jets-during-visit-by-macron


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## Foinikas

BON PLAN said:


> Serbia is in talk to buy 6 Rafale...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> La Serbie négocierait l'achat d'au moins 6 Rafale auprès de Dassault Aviation - Zone Militaire
> 
> 
> En juillet 2020, le président Aleksandar Vučić, qui vient d'être réélu, avait plaidé pour un renforcement significatif des capacités militaires de son
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.opex360.com


It would nice


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## BON PLAN

Ali_Baba said:


> Interesting as Croatia also ordered Rafales aswell last year : https://www.france24.com/en/europe/...12-french-fighter-jets-during-visit-by-macron


Rafale is seen as less costly in the long term than F35, and is a mature product when F35 has only a very politically correct IOC as for now.

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## CSAW

"March 4 (Reuters) - France's Dassault Aviation said on Friday it expected to post lower sales this year than in 2021, as it reported a steep rise in annual earnings fuelled by higher deliveries of its warplanes.

The maker of Rafale fighter jets saw its operating income more than double to 527 million euros ($580.33 million) from 261 million in 2020, while net sales climbed to 7.23 billion euros from 5.49 billion the previous year."

============================

"France “substantially” increased its exports of arms in the 2017-2021 period and is now the third biggest exporter of weaponry in the world, a report published by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (Sipri) shows. 

In this four-year period, arms exports by France made up 11% of total global arms exports, up from 6% in the previous four-year period (2012-2016), meaning it overtakes China as the third biggest exporter. 

Overall, France has increased its arms exports by 59% in the past 10 years, the most of any country in this time period. 

It remains behind the US and Russia as the biggest exporters, who in the 2017-2021 period supplied 39% and 19% of the global arms exports respectively. 

China is now the fourth biggest exporter of arms, and Germany is fifth. "

=========================================
















Dassault Aviation sees lower sales in 2022 after military earnings boost


France's Dassault Aviation said on Friday it expected to post lower sales this year than in 2021, as it reported a steep rise in annual earnings fuelled by higher deliveries of its warplanes.




www.reuters.com


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## Gomig-21

CSAW said:


> "March 4 (Reuters) - France's Dassault Aviation said on Friday it expected to post lower sales this year than in 2021, as it reported a steep rise in annual earnings fuelled by higher deliveries of its warplanes.



It almost doesn't make any sense!? If their earnings are the highest they've ever been in the past year, and they just signed the mega deal with the UAE for 80 F4 Rafales, Egypt's order for 30 F3R Rafales that they would be having an even bigger year coming up!? Not sure where the logic is in their thinking.


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## YouGotRouged

Gomig-21 said:


> It almost doesn't make any sense!? If their earnings are the highest they've ever been in the past year, and they just signed the mega deal with the UAE for 80 F4 Rafales, Egypt's order for 30 F3R Rafales that they would be having an even bigger year coming up!? Not sure where the logic is in their thinking.


Not an economist by any means but probably increased supplier costs, and increased labor costs vis a vis cov-19, to name a couple?

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## Gomig-21

YouGotRouged said:


> Not an economist by any means but probably increased supplier costs, and increased labor costs vis a vis cov-19, to name a couple?



Less earnings and the valid points you made means they're production will decrease. So, if they originally said they could up their production from 1 fighter a month to 3, then that most likely will drop back down also. Damn Covid really screwed the whole world over.


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## INS_Vikrant

Dassault will have to set up an Rafale assembly line in India, not just for IAF but for their other export orders as well

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## INS_Vikrant

Make in India IAF's focus for next mega fighter deal


The Indian Air Force is likely to take the the 'Buy Global Make in India' initiative route for its next mega-deal for fighter aircraft.




www.google.com





Make in India IAF's focus for next mega fighter deal

The Indian Air Force is likely to take the the 'Buy Global Make in India' initiative route for its next mega-deal for fighter aircraft.

In the 114 multi-role fighter aircraft (MRFA) programme, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is working towards manufacturing 114 planes within the country under the Buy Global Make in India route.

“Work is already going on the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas and the 5th Generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft project. The 114 MRFA project would also be required by the IAF to maintain an edge over both the northern and western adversaries. We would prefer to go for the ‘Buy Global Make in India’ route, which is preferred by the vendors who are also expected to take part in the programme,” defence sources told India Today. 
An official said, “The two squadrons of the Rafale combat aircraft were fully functional with 35 aircraft which have already arrived from France and only one plane is left for delivery.” Sources said the IAF would certainly require a capability that is being provided by Rafale and more planes would be required as the two squadrons had only met the emergency requirements of the force.

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## BON PLAN

Gomig-21 said:


> It almost doesn't make any sense!? If their earnings are the highest they've ever been in the past year, and they just signed the mega deal with the UAE for 80 F4 Rafales, Egypt's order for 30 F3R Rafales that they would be having an even bigger year coming up!? Not sure where the logic is in their thinking.


There is at least 3 years between the order (first payment in fact) and the first delivery... in the mean time you may have to reduce the production tempo because you can't store a Rafale (and they are all customer fitted)



INS_Vikrant said:


> Dassault will have to set up an Rafale assembly line in India, not just for IAF but for their other export orders as well


I think it is the plan.
I know from the son of a friend of mine working in Dassault purchase office that Dassault asked the suppliers to move to 4,5 / 5 plane per month. The french line at max can assemble 3 jets/month. The remaining is, for me, for a possible future indian line... for Indian needs, and maybe Indonesia ?

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## INS_Vikrant

BON PLAN said:


> I think it is the plan.
> I know from the sun of a friend of mine working in Dassault purchase office that Dassault asked the suppliers to move to 4,( / 5 plane per month. The french line at max can assemble 3 jets/month. The remaining is, for me, for a possible future indian line... for Indian needs, and maybe Indonesia ?



Thanks for this insider info


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## INS_Vikrant

Indian Private Sector Industries to play a major role in MRFA


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## BON PLAN

A news from Dassault : The first payment for the 80 UAE Rafale deal was made some days ago. The contract is now effective.


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## Two banks of the River

BON PLAN said:


> A news from Dassault : The first payment for the 80 UAE Rafale deal was made some days ago. The contract is now effective.


80 Aircrafts is to be inducted in how long? Apart from that when will the airframes for Egypt's 2nd order start going out?

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## Gomig-21

BON PLAN said:


> There is at least 3 years between the order (first payment in fact) and the first delivery...



I understand now. I guess it also depends on how the payment schedule is structured. The first payment is like a deposit but what is the percentage of that first payment in relation to the entire amount. A country like the UAE is most likely not bankrolling this acquisition unlike Egypt, so it can pay a larger amount up front if it wants to. It just depends on the structure of the payments.

You wouldn't happen to know via a French source if the 30 Egyptian Rafales are F3Rs or F4s? Having a friendly debate with a good friend of mine who says they're F4s while the timing and news that we have so far suggests they're F3Rs. We're also hoping that they're right about the Meteors being included with this batch. Any idea?


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## BON PLAN

Two banks of the River said:


> 80 Aircrafts is to be inducted in how long? Apart from that when will the airframes for Egypt's 2nd order start going out?


The UAE first delivery is intended in 2027.
End in 2031 if I remember well, so nearly 15 birds each year.



Gomig-21 said:


> You wouldn't happen to know via a French source if the 30 Egyptian Rafales are F3Rs or F4s? Having a friendly debate with a good friend of mine who says they're F4s while the timing and news that we have so far suggests they're F3Rs. We're also hoping that they're right about the Meteors being included with this batch. Any idea?


The first 24 Egypt Rafale, F3-O4T at the beginning, are keen to be upgraded to F3R (I don't know if it is the case or not), and as they are from older batch only able to be F4.1 upgraded (as main french air force ones).
The 30 ordered in 2021 are natively F3R, so they can be upgraded to F4.2

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## Indos

Indonesian 6 Rafale order is F3R


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## BON PLAN

Indos said:


> Indonesian 6 Rafale order is F3R


Indeed. It is, so far, the best variant FOC.
All birds made before Qatar ones (ie incuding the first Egyp order) can be "easily" upgraded to F4.1
All the others (Qatar, India, 2nd Egypt...) are F34 so upgraded easily to F4.2

F4.2 intend to come with new hardware, and some frame modifications.

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## Indos

BON PLAN said:


> Indeed. It is, so far, the best variant FOC.
> All birds made before Qatar ones (ie incuding the first Egyp order) can be "easily" upgraded to F4.1
> All the others (Qatar, India, 2nd Egypt...) are F34 so upgraded easily to F4.2
> 
> F4.2 intend to come with new hardware, and some frame modifications.



What is the different between F 3R and F4.1/4.2 ?


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## BON PLAN

Indos said:


> What is the different between F 3R and F4.1/4.2 ?


new radar modes, new SPECTRA modes maybe with GaN SPECTRA antennas, far more connectivity (F35 like), integration of 1000kg Hammer bomb, new MICA NG (with 2 boosters), new auto diagnostic tools for the whole plane (specially on M88), and specially for France (not the Indian or Qatar case) integration of a new targeting helmet.

But F4.2 will pave the way for futur improvements. Some say side looking radars, multi sector infrared and optical sensors, more stealth.... economically (and maybe technically) impossible on F4.1 dedicated for older frames (not the Indian case, because all birds delivered with F3R from the beginning are F4.2 ready).

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## BON PLAN



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## Two banks of the River

Buy Global, Make in India scheme to be followed over the Strategic Partnership model. Like the one in C295W procurement.


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## SQ8

Two banks of the River said:


> Buy Global, Make in India scheme to be followed over the Strategic Partnership model. Like the one in C295W procurement.


Not again - what the heck what MRCA then? 
A total waste of Indian taxpayer funds only to repeat it again?

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## Two banks of the River

SQ8 said:


> Not again - what the heck what MRCA then?
> A total waste of Indian taxpayer funds only to repeat it again?


Not a new one per say. This will kind of simplify the procedure for OEMs, making ToT of core technologies less stringent and more about the manufacturing processes. 

Plus leaves the Government away from any allegations of partiality in choosing a particular company for assembly.

A new RFI won't go out. It will just affect the next stage.

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## Super Falcon

Confirmed report 54 Rafales off the shelf will be bought and 60 will be built in India 






other jets won't be picked

Rafales will be built in India along with french snecma engines


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## Ali_Baba

Super Falcon said:


> Confirmed report 54 Rafales off the shelf will be bought and 60 will be built in India
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> other jets won't be picked
> 
> Rafales will be built in India along with french snecma engines



Needs more confirmation than a random Youtube channel i am afraid.


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## Super Falcon

Ali_Baba said:


> Needs more confirmation than a random Youtube channel i am afraid.


News will take time these are insiders rafale is sure winner and 54 off shelf will be bought remaining reliance defence and dassault will manufacture in India I'm giving news ahead of time and any article soon you will hear there might be variation in numbers but Rafales are the choice mark my words


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## Two banks of the River

Super Falcon said:


> News will take time these are insiders rafale is sure winner and 54 off shelf will be bought remaining reliance defence and dassault will manufacture in India I'm giving news ahead of time and any article soon you will hear there might be variation in numbers but Rafales are the choice mark my words


It's a logical choice cost wise. India has already paid for ISE upgrades, so when Chosen, money won't be required for any India specific changes , but other platforms will need it. Additional basing infrastructure for 36 more Rafales already exists, so some cost is reduced there also. Initial training costs will also be cut down. Further Dassault already has a facility in India, so it has edge there also cost wise. 

It is all about the cost. 36 off the self purchase in 8+ billion USD pretty much ensures all the one time costs are already paid for. So when Dassault goes into tender, its bid will obviously be lower than any other western counterpart. 

But then again, nothing concrete has happened till now.


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## BON PLAN

Super Falcon said:


> Confirmed report 54 Rafales off the shelf will be bought and 60 will be built in India
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> other jets won't be picked
> 
> Rafales will be built in India along with french snecma engines


It's not confirmed. Unfortunately....


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## Super Falcon

BON PLAN said:


> It's not confirmed. Unfortunately....


Time will tell you sooner or later


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## INDIAPOSITIVE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547799042905690118

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## BON PLAN

INDIAPOSITIVE said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547799042905690118


All delivered, but the last remains in France for some tests.
It is the information I have. Maybe in the mean time the last is going to India...

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## Black Tornado

BON PLAN said:


> All delivered, but the last remains in France for some tests.
> It is the information I have. Maybe in the mean time the last is going to India...


Sad that dumb MoD kept on sleeping while Rafales were getting sold out to other countries, hope that domestic production of 114 Rafales begin soon. Also if possible those 50 aircrafts for aircraft carriers should also be Rafales to bring commonality.

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## Super Falcon

One hell of a machine will boost Iaf capability


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## Blue Marlin

36 for large country like india is peanuts, even if your splitting them 18 in the east and 18 in the west........

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## Two banks of the River

Blue Marlin said:


> 36 for large country like india is peanuts, even if your splitting them 18 in the east and 18 in the west........


Less than peanuts. Totally agreed.


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## BON PLAN

"in term of performances, Rafale smokes F35 in all area..."

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## Princeps Senatus

BON PLAN said:


> "in term of performances, Rafale smokes F35 in all area..."


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## SQ8

BON PLAN said:


> "in term of performances, Rafale smokes F35 in all area..."


Sure - once it can get close enough and both are down to guns.
In terms of sensors, emissions, low visibility and net centricity - the Rafale doesn’t stand a chance against a F-35.

Just a clickbait video similar to how that “Rafale beats F-22” video came out just so the French can puff their chests up

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## dbc

SQ8 said:


> Sure - once it can get close enough and both are down to guns.
> In terms of sensors, emissions, low visibility and net centricity - the Rafale doesn’t stand a chance against a F-35.
> 
> Just a clickbait video similar to how that “Rafale beats F-22” video came out just so the French can puff their chests up




Lt Col Ian Knight Royal Netherlands Air Force

Knight divulged a little more information about flying basic fighter maneuvers (BFM) in an F-35. ‘When our envelope was cleared to practise BFM we got the opportunity to fight some fourthgeneration fighters. Remember, back then the rumors were that the F-35 was a pig. The first time the opponents showed up [in the training area] they had wing tanks along with a bunch of missiles. I guess they figured that being in a dirty configuration wouldn’t really matter and that they would still easily outmaneuver us. By the end of the week, though, they had dropped their wing tanks, transitioned to a single centerline fuel tank and were still doing everything they could not to get gunned by us. A week later they stripped the jets clean of all external stores, which made the BFM fights interesting, to say the least…









OUT OF THE SHADOWS


The Royal Netherlands Air Force has been flying a pair of F-35As...




www.key.aero

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## SQ8

dbc said:


> Lt Col Ian Knight Royal Netherlands Air Force
> 
> Knight divulged a little more information about flying basic fighter maneuvers (BFM) in an F-35. ‘When our envelope was cleared to practise BFM we got the opportunity to fight some fourthgeneration fighters. Remember, back then the rumors were that the F-35 was a pig. The first time the opponents showed up [in the training area] they had wing tanks along with a bunch of missiles. I guess they figured that being in a dirty configuration wouldn’t really matter and that they would still easily outmaneuver us. By the end of the week, though, they had dropped their wing tanks, transitioned to a single centerline fuel tank and were still doing everything they could not to get gunned by us. A week later they stripped the jets clean of all external stores, which made the BFM fights interesting, to say the least…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OUT OF THE SHADOWS
> 
> 
> The Royal Netherlands Air Force has been flying a pair of F-35As...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.key.aero


Not knowing what aircraft they were up against the clean nature of the F-35(and most LO aircraft) means they have less drag on them of all sorts. 

But the F-35 isn’t a slouch as is assumed either. Not to derail this further but a clean F-35 vs a clean Rafale would be an interesting fight but right now the F-35 pilot is the only one whose helmet will not just be point him to where the Rafale is and track the Rafale 360 degrees; but if the Rafale goes in a visually obscured area of the F-35 the helmet will project the image of where the Rafale is so the F-35 pilot can look at the floor and still “see” the Rafale in full color

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## BON PLAN

SQ8 said:


> In terms of sensors, emissions, low visibility and net centricity - the Rafale doesn’t stand a chance against a F-35.



Sensor? Rafale AESA radar was judged good enough by UAE. So good that they didn't inked a F35 deal.

Emissions? hum hum.... F35 is so hot it has to open its internal bays every 15 minutes. And unable to supercruise despite a 12T dry engine means it is shape as a sugar piece : absolutely not good for IR stealth.

Low visibility? In X band sure. in low band all fighters are visible. In IR trace : F35 is a candle in the sky.

Net centricity : probably. Just wait the Rafale F4.



dbc said:


> Lt Col Ian Knight Royal Netherlands Air Force
> 
> Knight divulged a little more information about flying basic fighter maneuvers (BFM) in an F-35. ‘When our envelope was cleared to practise BFM we got the opportunity to fight some fourthgeneration fighters. Remember, back then the rumors were that the F-35 was a pig. The first time the opponents showed up [in the training area] they had wing tanks along with a bunch of missiles. I guess they figured that being in a dirty configuration wouldn’t really matter and that they would still easily outmaneuver us. By the end of the week, though, they had dropped their wing tanks, transitioned to a single centerline fuel tank and were still doing everything they could not to get gunned by us. A week later they stripped the jets clean of all external stores, which made the BFM fights interesting, to say the least…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OUT OF THE SHADOWS
> 
> 
> The Royal Netherlands Air Force has been flying a pair of F-35As...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.key.aero


What kind of "4th gen" fighters? 
Kfir? SH18? M2000?

Note that 5th gen is a LM marketing definition, released with the F22.
5th gen was : stealthy, F16 like agile, Sensor fusion, Supercruise. F35 is short on some.

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## BON PLAN

SQ8 said:


> Not knowing what aircraft they were up against the clean nature of the F-35(and most LO aircraft) means they have less drag on them of all sorts.
> 
> But the F-35 isn’t a slouch as is assumed either. Not to derail this further but a clean F-35 vs a clean Rafale would be an interesting fight but right now the F-35 pilot is the only one whose helmet will not just be point him to where the Rafale is and track the Rafale 360 degrees; but if the Rafale goes in a visually obscured area of the F-35 the helmet will project the image of where the Rafale is so the F-35 pilot can look at the floor and still “see” the Rafale in full color


Rafale is fitted with a helmet also.
Qatar ones were the first equipped, in 2017.....


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## SQ8

BON PLAN said:


> Sensor? Rafale AESA radar was judged good enough by UAE. So good that they didn't inked a F35 deal.
> 
> Emissions? hum hum.... F35 is so hot it has to open its internal bays every 15 minutes. And unable to supercruise despite a 12T dry engine means it is shape as a sugar piece : absolutely not good for IR stealth.
> 
> Low visibility? In X band sure. in low band all fighters are visible. In IR trace : F35 is a candle in the sky.
> 
> Net centricity : probably. Just wait the Rafale F4.
> 
> 
> What kind of "4th gen" fighters?
> Kfir? SH18? M2000?
> 
> Note that 5th gen is a LM marketing definition, released with the F22.
> 5th gen was : stealthy, F16 like agile, Sensor fusion, Supercruise. F35 is short on some.


No, they inked it because the capabilities they wanted with the F-35 weren’t available for the price quoted - good enough doesn’t mean it is better.

The second part has no reference or proof - open every 15 minutes? What source are you quoting?

Again, baseless self aggrandizing conjecture from your end and nothing else



BON PLAN said:


> Rafale is fitted with a helmet also.
> Qatar ones were the first equipped, in 2017.....


So is a Mig-29
But there is a big difference in helmet capabilities - don’t try to hide behind generalized statements

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## Wesen Hunter

Rafale is great but F-35 is better.


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> Sensor? Rafale AESA radar was judged good enough by UAE. So good that they didn't inked a F35 deal.



Troll post, the UAE Rafale deal has nothing to do with the F-35.


The defense ministry of the United Arab Emirates is expressing continued interest in US-made F-35 stealth fighter jets, despite a recent purchase of French warplanes.

Commander of the UAE’s air force and air defense told state news outlet over the weekend that last week’s deal for 80 French-made Rafale fighter jets was no substitute for the country’s intent to buy Lockheed-Martin’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

“This deal is not considered as an alternative for the forthcoming F-35 deal,” Maj. Gen. Ibrahim Nasser Al Alawi told Emirates News Agency late on Saturday.

Read more: https://www.al-monitor.com/original...hter-jets-no-substitute-us-f-35#ixzz7b0olrOjD





BON PLAN said:


> What kind of "4th gen" fighters?


Aircraft that are kinematically superior to the Rafale.

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## BON PLAN

SQ8 said:


> But there is a big difference in helmet capabilities - don’t try to hide behind generalized statements


Sure.
First of all : the price.
Second : the F35 one breaks the neck of tiny pilot.



dbc said:


> Aircraft that are kinematically superior to the Rafale.


Except speed, no one is better.
need another try ? OK, let's go.

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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> Except speed, no one is better.
> need another try ? OK, let's go.



a pointless debate with a love struck Rafale fanboi - no thanks.

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## waz

dbc said:


> a pointless debate with love struck Rafale fanboi - no thanks.



F-35 = different league.


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## dbc

waz said:


> F-35 = different league.


Yes, different league.

well if an F-35 gets into a merge with the enemy the F-35 pilot has really screwed the pooch - big time. With onboard and off board sensors at the pilots disposal the F-35 can remain beyond visual and if necessary egress when the tactical situation is unfavorable. A few things people don't realize, the F-35 can sustain M1.6 much longer than any fourth generation fighter. For some perspective, the ferry range of an F-35 on internal fuel is greater than a F-15 hanging three drop tanks.

Imagine you are being chased by Usain Bolt in his peak. You have a head start because you can see much further than Usain, Usain can sprint 100m in 9 seconds but he runs out of energy beyond 200m. With a head start, Usain will never catch you if you can sustain an average speed of 100m in 12 seconds for 2,000 meters.

The only time the F-35 will stay engaged "close in" is when it's defending the fleet at sea. But with its cooperative engagement capability any dog fighting that happens near friendly assets will not end well for the adversary. Not when the F-35 can attack the adversary using off board weapons from ships, drones or other fighters in the fleet from angles the enemy will never expect.

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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> a pointless debate with a love struck Rafale fanboi - no thanks.


Lack of argument? As usual with an average US people, always thinking than only USA has the knowledge to built a premium weapon susyem....



waz said:


> F-35 = different league.


Indeed.
Over budget,
Under specifications,
Late,

Seems that LM lost its talent.


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> Lack of argument?



Sorry busy day, my to do list is full. But I will engage a Rafale fanboi right after..



Spoiler: To Do




I've eaten a can of the hottest peppers on earth
scrubbed all my skin off with the coarsest sand paper
...gouged my own eyes out
go for a leisurely swim in vat of concentrated sulfuric acid.


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## Deino

*Can you guys come back to the topic - namely Rafale in IAF service - and stop this stupid general discussion?*

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## Two banks of the River

Deino said:


> *Can you guys come back to the topic - namely Rafale in IAF service - and stop this stupid general discussion?*


Not enough Rafales in service to be discussion worthy I think.

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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> With onboard and off board sensors at the pilots disposal the F-35 can remain beyond visual and if necessary egress when the tactical situation is unfavorable.


And a rafale don't have these sensors ?



dbc said:


> A few things people don't realize, the F-35 can sustain M1.6 much longer than any fourth generation fighter.


LOL. The rear frame loose pieces at mach 1.2...


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## MirageBlue

Two banks of the River said:


> Not enough Rafales in service to be discussion worthy I think.



35 Rafales is not enough to have a discussion? I agree that the IAF needs at least 35 more, ideally 54 more at least, but 35 is still enough to put 24 in the air at any time given 70% availability for the fleet.


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## Two banks of the River

MirageBlue said:


> 35 Rafales is not enough to have a discussion? I agree that the IAF needs at least 35 more, ideally 54 more at least, but 35 is still enough to put 24 in the air at any time given 70% availability for the fleet.


12 in East and 12 in west


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> LOL. The rear frame loose pieces at mach 1.2...


have you ever asked yourself what would happen to the Rafale if it could sustain Mach 1.6 for 30 minutes. Has Dassault? No because it can't ....not for more than six minutes.

Parasitic drag from sustained supersonic flight does degrade the tail surface.
But you guffaw at problem the Rafale is too performance deficient to ever encounter.
You see why I call you a love struck fanboi...


Winter noted that the issue was documented while the jet was flying at the very edge of its flight envelope. He also said the phenomenon only occurred once for both the B and C models, despite numerous attempts to replicate the conditions that caused the problem.









Supersonic speeds could cause big problems for the F-35′s stealth coating


Supersonic flight at the edge of the F-35 jet's flight envelope could cause structural damage or degrade its stealth coating, warn documents exclusively obtained by Defense News.




www.defensenews.com






The problem is hard to reproduce and occurred only once on the B and C model.


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## MirageBlue

Two banks of the River said:


> 12 in East and 12 in west



That's under a two front scenario. And that's the minimum number available at any time. Don't believe the Rafale fleet will remain this small in the coming years.


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## Two banks of the River

MirageBlue said:


> That's under a two front scenario. And that's the minimum number available at any time. Don't believe the Rafale fleet will remain this small in the coming years.


Come on man, do you really think we are going to ink a fighter deal this year or even next year or even after that?


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## MirageBlue

Two banks of the River said:


> Come on man, do you really think we are going to ink a fighter deal this year or even next year or even after that?



If the IAF insists on 114 MRFA, it'll likely get nothing. But if it is pragmatic and wants another 36 or 48 Rafales OTS, it is possible for a deal to be signed. Navy was smart, and trimmed the number to 26 instead of 54, knowing that 54 would never get approved. Now they'll choose 1 type and likely see the GoI moving into negotiations next year.

But anyway, the argument that just because the IAF has 36 Rafales it is not worthy of a thread to discuss is bogus.

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## Two banks of the River

MirageBlue said:


> If the IAF insists on 114 MRFA, it'll likely get nothing. But if it is pragmatic and wants another 36 or 48 Rafales OTS, it is possible for a deal to be signed. Navy was smart, and trimmed the number to 26 instead of 54, knowing that 54 would never get approved. Now they'll choose 1 type and likely see the GoI moving into negotiations next year.
> 
> But anyway, the argument that just because the IAF has 36 Rafales it is not worthy of a thread to discuss is bogus.


This is the 2nd thread and one more MMRCA thread is there. So anything reasonable has been already discussed to death.


----------



## MirageBlue

Two banks of the River said:


> This is the 2nd thread and one more MMRCA thread is there. So anything reasonable has been already discussed to death.



Rafales are operational in the IAF, and the tip of the IAF's spear. So what's wrong in wanting to discuss about it?

MMRCA, MRCA, MRFA is another topic altogether with a bunch of other airplanes involved as well.


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## Two banks of the River

MirageBlue said:


> Rafales are operational in the IAF, and the tip of the IAF's spear. So what's wrong in wanting to discuss about it?
> 
> MMRCA, MRCA, MRFA is another topic altogether with a bunch of other airplanes involved as well.


What else substantial or actual happening is remaining to be discussed?


----------



## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> . Rafale reach mach 1.6 with 2 x 2000 liters external tanks (yet called subsonic tanks...).



you live in Rafale la la land Mach 1.6 with 2 x 2000 liter subsonic drop tanks. Dude check yourself into a mental hospital.


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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> you live in Rafale la la land Mach 1.6 with 2 x 2000 liter subsonic drop tanks. Dude check yourself into a mental hospital.


You speak as a noob.
I come with evidence : http://rafalefan.e-monsite.com/pages/dossier-rafale-avionique/performances.html
"Selon Air Fan n°297, les bidons de 2000 litres ont été testés dans les domaines transsoniques et supersoniques (configuration à 2 bidons). Confirmé en 2008 dans "Rafale en Afghanistan". " use google translate.

It was tested in 2006, to answer to some that said the bird was under powered....


----------



## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> You speak as a noob.
> I come with evidence : http://rafalefan.e-monsite.com/pages/dossier-rafale-avionique/performances.html
> "Selon Air Fan n°297, les bidons de 2000 litres ont été testés dans les domaines transsoniques et supersoniques (configuration à 2 bidons). Confirmé en 2008 dans "Rafale en Afghanistan". " use google translate.
> 
> It was tested in 2006, to answer to some that said the bird was under powered....





BON PLAN said:


> Rafale reach mach 1.6 with 2 x 2000 liters external tanks (yet called subsonic tanks...).



from your source citing Air Fan n°297

Avec 2 bidons de 2000 litres et 4 AASM, la vitesse semble limitée à 1000 km/h (source "Rafale en Afghanistan" - Avril 2008).

is this a collection of your fantasies ? Are you Air Fan n°297? by the way 1000 km/ h is 0.8 M not M1.6. So even if the collection of fantasies you posted is to be believed - the Rafale *cannot* hit M.1.6 with two 2,000 liter drop tank when it's limited to 1,000 km/ hr by the FCS while carrying 2 x 2,000 liter tanks according to your source.

Go see a doctor and stop wasting my time.


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## BON PLAN

dbc said:


> from your source citing Air Fan n°297
> 
> Avec 2 bidons de 2000 litres et 4 AASM, la vitesse semble limitée à 1000 km/h (source "Rafale en Afghanistan" - Avril 2008).
> 
> is this a collection of your fantasies ? Are you Air Fan n°297? by the way 1000 km/ h is 0.8 M not M1.6. So even if the collection of fantasies you posted is to be believed - the Rafale *cannot* hit M.1.6 with two 2,000 liter drop tank when it's limited to 1,000 km/ hr by the FCS while carrying 2 x 2,000 liter tanks according to your source.
> 
> Go see a doctor and stop wasting my time.


With 4 AASM and 2 2000L tanks the speed *SEEMS *limited to....
AASM can't go supersonic.

In 2006, in France a Rafale flew in full reheat at mach1,6 with 2 x 2000 L tanks. It's a fact. You belive me, nice. You don't, I don't care.

But it's probably too complicated to understand from a average american brain always thinking USA is über alles (as the admiral Rickover, saying from the french developpement of sub launch deterrent missile : "impossible ! it was too hard for us so for them... " ).


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## dbc

BON PLAN said:


> With 4 AASM and 2 2000L tanks the speed *SEEMS *limited to....
> AASM can't go supersonic.
> 
> In 2006, in France a Rafale flew in full reheat at mach1,6 with 2 x 2000 L tanks. It's a fact. You belive me, nice. You don't, I don't care.
> 
> But it's probably too complicated to understand from a average american brain always thinking USA is über alles (as the admiral Rickover, saying from the french developpement of sub launch deterrent missile : "impossible ! it was too hard for us so for them... " ).



arrêt, there is a reason it's called *subsonic* 2,000 liter tank. The hint is in the word *SUBSONIC. *

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## MirageBlue

IAF pilots from No.101 'Falcons' squadron based at Hashimara in the eastern part of India flew a three plane training mission. ACM Vivek Ram Chaudhari flew with his son Sqdn Ldr Mihir Chaudhari. 






Sqdn Ldr Mihir Chaudhari and ACM Vivek Ram Chaudhari














__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1568152116430241796

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## MirageBlue

First image of an IAF Rafale pilot wearing an Elbit Targo HMDS..from an IAF presentation by ACM VR Chaudhari






Much better quality seen here at the 3:50 mark


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## MirageBlue

Rafale next to a Su-30MKI..


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## BON PLAN

IAF need more 4.5 gen fighter (ie Rafale)








‘We need 4.5 generation aircraft’: IAF chief as he flies in Rafale in Jodhpur


IAF chief Marshal VR Chaudhari flew in a Rafale fighter jet, while French Air chief Gen Stéphane Mille took off in an Indian Russian-origin Sukhoi-30 fighter aircraft during 'Garuda VIl' bilateral exercise in Jodhpur on Tuesday.




www.hindustantimes.com





*****

Last of the first 36 Indian Rafale to arrive in 1 month.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590300988778631168


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## Abdul Rehman Majeed

BON PLAN said:


> IAF need more 4.5 gen fighter (ie Rafale)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘We need 4.5 generation aircraft’: IAF chief as he flies in Rafale in Jodhpur
> 
> 
> IAF chief Marshal VR Chaudhari flew in a Rafale fighter jet, while French Air chief Gen Stéphane Mille took off in an Indian Russian-origin Sukhoi-30 fighter aircraft during 'Garuda VIl' bilateral exercise in Jodhpur on Tuesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hindustantimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *****
> 
> Last of the first 36 Indian Rafale to arrive in 1 month.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590300988778631168




I read somewhere that Dassault has not fulfilled any of the ToT terms in the contract.

Did India blacklist Dassault yet or shall we say Modi does not have the balls? 

Indian agencies ignored millions paid in kickbacks in Rafale deal: report​French media reports Dassault paid almost 13m euros to middlemen to help secure sale of fighter jets to India


News DeskNovember 09, 2021






Indian media on Tuesday published reports regarding a fresh political controversy over the Rafale deal as evidence pointed out that Indian agencies ignored allegations that French company Dassault, the maker of the Rafale jets, may have paid millions of euros to "middlemen".
French portal _Mediapart_ has reported that Dassault paid almost 13 million euros to middleman Sushen Gupta between 2002 and 2012 to help secure the sale of Rafale fighter jets to India.

Advertisement




Indian agencies failed to investigate these allegations despite having access to incriminating documents on at least some of these payments, NDTV reported.
*Read more: French judge tasked with investigating Rafale fighter jet sale to India*
"Now _NDTV_ has found more documents that show that in 2019, three years after India signed the Rafale deal, central agencies, including the CBI, were alerted to possible kickbacks paid by Dassault, yet they failed to act on the allegations. Such allegations could have led to a blacklist of Dassault under Indian laws," the report stated.
It said that the documents form part of the CBI's charge-sheet on alleged corruption in the sale of 12 AgustaWestland helicopters to top leaders in India. "They include a statement by Dheeraj Aggarwal, then manager of IT services company IDS, who in 2019 told the CBI that Dassault routed money to Sushen Gupta's Mauritius-based shell firm Interstellar through IDS."
It was reported that the payment period spans the NDA government under Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, which was in power till 2004, and the UPA, which came to power right afterwards.
Despite including this testimony in its court filings, the CBI did not initiate a probe against the company, it added.
According to Indian laws, a company can be suspended or banned if it "resorts to corrupt practices," "unfair means" or "illegal activities" during any period of the bidding and negotiations.
Meanwhile, a minister in the Indian state of Maharashtra demanded that the Centre should investigate claims made by the French portal.
*Also read: J-20 fighter jet: game changer to control sky*
"A lot of news regarding Rafale has been coming in the French media. I think the way the news is coming the government should investigate the matter. We demand an investigation by the government," said Maharashtra Cabinet Minister Nawab Malik.
The 7.8-billion euro ($9.3 billion) deal for 36 planes between the Indian government and French aircraft manufacturer Dassault has long been mired in corruption allegations.
Dassault had initially won a contract in 2012 to supply 126 jets to India and had been negotiating with Indian aerospace company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
By March 2015, those talks had almost reached a conclusion, according to Dassault. But in April of that year, after Modi paid an official visit to France, the talks suddenly broke down to general surprise.
Reliance Group, which has no experience in aeronautics, later replaced HAL and finalised a new contract for 36 jets.
France’s _Le Monde_ newspaper also revealed that France in 2015 cancelled a 143.7-million euro tax adjustment targeting a French firm belonging to Reliance, at the time when the deal was being negotiated.









Indian agencies ignored kickbacks in Rafale deal: report | The Express Tribune


French media outlet reported Dassault paid almost 13m euros to middlemen to help secure sale of fighter jets to India




tribune.com.pk


----------



## BON PLAN

Abdul Rehman Majeed said:


> I read somewhere that Dassault has not fulfilled any of the ToT terms in the contract.
> 
> Did India blacklist Dassault yet or shall we say Modi does not have the balls?
> 
> Indian agencies ignored millions paid in kickbacks in Rafale deal: report​French media reports Dassault paid almost 13m euros to middlemen to help secure sale of fighter jets to India
> 
> 
> News DeskNovember 09, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian media on Tuesday published reports regarding a fresh political controversy over the Rafale deal as evidence pointed out that Indian agencies ignored allegations that French company Dassault, the maker of the Rafale jets, may have paid millions of euros to "middlemen".
> French portal _Mediapart_ has reported that Dassault paid almost 13 million euros to middleman Sushen Gupta between 2002 and 2012 to help secure the sale of Rafale fighter jets to India.
> 
> Advertisement
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian agencies failed to investigate these allegations despite having access to incriminating documents on at least some of these payments, NDTV reported.
> *Read more: French judge tasked with investigating Rafale fighter jet sale to India*
> "Now _NDTV_ has found more documents that show that in 2019, three years after India signed the Rafale deal, central agencies, including the CBI, were alerted to possible kickbacks paid by Dassault, yet they failed to act on the allegations. Such allegations could have led to a blacklist of Dassault under Indian laws," the report stated.
> It said that the documents form part of the CBI's charge-sheet on alleged corruption in the sale of 12 AgustaWestland helicopters to top leaders in India. "They include a statement by Dheeraj Aggarwal, then manager of IT services company IDS, who in 2019 told the CBI that Dassault routed money to Sushen Gupta's Mauritius-based shell firm Interstellar through IDS."
> It was reported that the payment period spans the NDA government under Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, which was in power till 2004, and the UPA, which came to power right afterwards.
> Despite including this testimony in its court filings, the CBI did not initiate a probe against the company, it added.
> According to Indian laws, a company can be suspended or banned if it "resorts to corrupt practices," "unfair means" or "illegal activities" during any period of the bidding and negotiations.
> Meanwhile, a minister in the Indian state of Maharashtra demanded that the Centre should investigate claims made by the French portal.
> *Also read: J-20 fighter jet: game changer to control sky*
> "A lot of news regarding Rafale has been coming in the French media. I think the way the news is coming the government should investigate the matter. We demand an investigation by the government," said Maharashtra Cabinet Minister Nawab Malik.
> The 7.8-billion euro ($9.3 billion) deal for 36 planes between the Indian government and French aircraft manufacturer Dassault has long been mired in corruption allegations.
> Dassault had initially won a contract in 2012 to supply 126 jets to India and had been negotiating with Indian aerospace company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
> By March 2015, those talks had almost reached a conclusion, according to Dassault. But in April of that year, after Modi paid an official visit to France, the talks suddenly broke down to general surprise.
> Reliance Group, which has no experience in aeronautics, later replaced HAL and finalised a new contract for 36 jets.
> France’s _Le Monde_ newspaper also revealed that France in 2015 cancelled a 143.7-million euro tax adjustment targeting a French firm belonging to Reliance, at the time when the deal was being negotiated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian agencies ignored kickbacks in Rafale deal: report | The Express Tribune
> 
> 
> French media outlet reported Dassault paid almost 13m euros to middlemen to help secure sale of fighter jets to India
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tribune.com.pk


Mediapart is a french tabloid, one of the sole in France. The owner, Edwy Plenel, is specially against the Dassault family (I don't know why, but the so called rafale bribe is a old obsession) and known to be islamic compatible...
It is a news that weight nothing.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## BON PLAN

Rafale vs EF2000 : a 2020 comparison.








Eurofighter Typhoon versus Dassault Rafale: A 2020 comparison


In 2015, Research Fellow at the RUSI Think-tank Justin Bronk, compared Europe’s two middle-weight fighter aircraft, the Typhoon and Rafale, The relatively subtle differences be…




hushkit.net


----------



## BON PLAN

*EXCLUSIVE: Final IAF Rafale In Sight, India Squeezes In More Enhancements*

EXCLUSIVE: Final IAF Rafale In Sight, India Squeezes In More Enhancements - Livefist​A 36th Rafale fighter jet, the last airframe of an Indian order placed in 2016, will be delivered to the Indian Air Force a month from now, completing what France hopes is only the first order for the jet. The final airframe, actually the first to be built for India,…

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## Abdul Rehman Majeed

BON PLAN said:


> *EXCLUSIVE: Final IAF Rafale In Sight, India Squeezes In More Enhancements*
> 
> EXCLUSIVE: Final IAF Rafale In Sight, India Squeezes In More Enhancements - Livefist​A 36th Rafale fighter jet, the last airframe of an Indian order placed in 2016, will be delivered to the Indian Air Force a month from now, completing what France hopes is only the first order for the jet. The final airframe, actually the first to be built for India,…



Final IAF Rafale is an apt headline as there will be no more Rafale procurement by India.

Dassault kickbacks to Modi's friends is out in the open.

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## Abdul Rehman Majeed

BON PLAN said:


> Mediapart is a french tabloid, one of the sole in France. The owner, Edwy Plenel, is specially against the Dassault family (I don't know why, but the so called rafale bribe is a old obsession) and known to be islamic compatible...
> It is a news that weight nothing.



French are good at giving bribes to win the deals and Indians are infamous for corruption and accepting bribes.

French Judiciary knows better.

French judge tasked with investigating Rafale fighter jet sale to India​Issued on: 02/07/2021 - 23:00



Indian Air Force Rafale fighter jets fly past during the first day of the Aero India 2021 Airshow at the Yelahanka Air Force Station in Bangalore, February 3, 2021. © Jewel Samad, AFP
Text by:NEWS WIRES
3 min
A French judge has been tasked with investigating a controversial 2016 multi-billion-dollar sale of Rafale fighter jets to India on “corruption” suspicions, the national financial prosecutors’ office (PNF) said Friday.

ADVERTISING

The 7.8-billion-euro ($9.3-billion) deal for 36 planes between the Indian government and French aircraft manufacturer Dassault has long been mired in corruption allegations.
The PNF had initially refused to investigate the sale, prompting French investigative website Mediapart to accuse it and the French Anti-corruption Agency of “burying” suspicions surrounding the September 2016 deal.
In April, Mediapart claimed “millions of euros of hidden commissions” were given to a go-between who helped Dassault conclude the sale, of which “some... could have been given as bribes” to Indian officials.
Dassault retorted that no wrong-doing was flagged in the group’s audits.
After the reports, France’s Sherpa NGO, which specialises in financial crime, filed an official complaint for “corruption” and “influence peddling” among other accusations, prompting an investigating magistrate to be designated to probe the deal.
Sherpa had already asked for an investigation into the deal in 2018, but the PNF took no action.
In this first complaint, the NGO had denounced the fact that Dassault chose Reliance Group as its Indian partner, a conglomerate headed by billionaire Anil Ambani, who is close to Prime Minister Narendra Modi.
Dassault had initially won a contract in 2012 to supply 126 jets to India and had been negotiating with Indian aerospace company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
By March 2015, those talks had almost reached a conclusion, according to Dassault.
But in April of that year, after Modi paid an official visit to France, the talks suddenly broke down to general surprise.
Reliance Group, which has no experience in aeronautics, replaced HAL and finalised a new contract for 36 jets.
In January 2016, at the time of the negotiations, Reliance had financed a film co-produced by Julie Gayet, the partner of Francois Hollande, who was president at the time.
Sherpa believes this could constitute “influence peddling”.
Hollande said there was no conflict of interest, saying France had not had any say in who Dassault’s Indian partner was.
France’s Le Monde newspaper also revealed that France in 2015 cancelled a 143.7-million-euro tax adjustment targeting a French firm belonging to Reliance, at the time when the deal was being negotiated.
_(AFP)









French judge tasked with investigating Rafale fighter jet sale to India


A French judge has been tasked with investigating a controversial 2016 multi-billion-dollar sale of Rafale fighter jets to India on “corruption” suspicions, the national financial prosecutors’ office…




www.france24.com




_


----------



## BON PLAN

Abdul Rehman Majeed said:


> French are good at giving bribes to win the deals and Indians are infamous for corruption and accepting bribes.
> 
> French Judiciary knows better.
> 
> French judge tasked with investigating Rafale fighter jet sale to India​Issued on: 02/07/2021 - 23:00
> View attachment 900739
> Indian Air Force Rafale fighter jets fly past during the first day of the Aero India 2021 Airshow at the Yelahanka Air Force Station in Bangalore, February 3, 2021. © Jewel Samad, AFP
> Text by:NEWS WIRES
> 3 min
> A French judge has been tasked with investigating a controversial 2016 multi-billion-dollar sale of Rafale fighter jets to India on “corruption” suspicions, the national financial prosecutors’ office (PNF) said Friday.
> 
> ADVERTISING
> 
> The 7.8-billion-euro ($9.3-billion) deal for 36 planes between the Indian government and French aircraft manufacturer Dassault has long been mired in corruption allegations.
> The PNF had initially refused to investigate the sale, prompting French investigative website Mediapart to accuse it and the French Anti-corruption Agency of “burying” suspicions surrounding the September 2016 deal.
> In April, Mediapart claimed “millions of euros of hidden commissions” were given to a go-between who helped Dassault conclude the sale, of which “some... could have been given as bribes” to Indian officials.
> Dassault retorted that no wrong-doing was flagged in the group’s audits.
> After the reports, France’s Sherpa NGO, which specialises in financial crime, filed an official complaint for “corruption” and “influence peddling” among other accusations, prompting an investigating magistrate to be designated to probe the deal.
> Sherpa had already asked for an investigation into the deal in 2018, but the PNF took no action.
> In this first complaint, the NGO had denounced the fact that Dassault chose Reliance Group as its Indian partner, a conglomerate headed by billionaire Anil Ambani, who is close to Prime Minister Narendra Modi.
> Dassault had initially won a contract in 2012 to supply 126 jets to India and had been negotiating with Indian aerospace company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
> By March 2015, those talks had almost reached a conclusion, according to Dassault.
> But in April of that year, after Modi paid an official visit to France, the talks suddenly broke down to general surprise.
> Reliance Group, which has no experience in aeronautics, replaced HAL and finalised a new contract for 36 jets.
> In January 2016, at the time of the negotiations, Reliance had financed a film co-produced by Julie Gayet, the partner of Francois Hollande, who was president at the time.
> Sherpa believes this could constitute “influence peddling”.
> Hollande said there was no conflict of interest, saying France had not had any say in who Dassault’s Indian partner was.
> France’s Le Monde newspaper also revealed that France in 2015 cancelled a 143.7-million-euro tax adjustment targeting a French firm belonging to Reliance, at the time when the deal was being negotiated.
> _(AFP)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> French judge tasked with investigating Rafale fighter jet sale to India
> 
> 
> A French judge has been tasked with investigating a controversial 2016 multi-billion-dollar sale of Rafale fighter jets to India on “corruption” suspicions, the national financial prosecutors’ office…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.france24.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


It is a cold case ! Mediapart, a full left wing news paper, tried for years to attack the Dassault family, without success....

The last bribe was about the subs purchased by pak.... causing an attack against french people working in pakistan... Just to be clear.

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## BON PLAN

some news about Indian Rafale offsets :

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595320391806828544

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## BON PLAN

*Rafale Jets For Indian Navy! Why France Should Be Confident Of Winning Another Fighter Deal From Modi Govt.*








Rafale Jets For Indian Navy! Why France Should Be Confident Of Winning Another Fighter Deal From Modi Govt.


With the tech prowess of Rafale fighter jets, France would like India to consider it being the most dependable ally. Will Indian Navy




eurasiantimes.com


----------



## Skull and Bones

BON PLAN said:


> *Rafale Jets For Indian Navy! Why France Should Be Confident Of Winning Another Fighter Deal From Modi Govt.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rafale Jets For Indian Navy! Why France Should Be Confident Of Winning Another Fighter Deal From Modi Govt.
> 
> 
> With the tech prowess of Rafale fighter jets, France would like India to consider it being the most dependable ally. Will Indian Navy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eurasiantimes.com



Unlikely, I'm pretty sure Indian navy will go for F-18SH.


----------



## BON PLAN

Skull and Bones said:


> Unlikely, I'm pretty sure Indian navy will go for F-18SH.


Just a question of time to have the answer.

Logistically to have a so small fleet of SH18, when IAF already have all the spare parts, test bench, training,... for Rafale, will be a nightmare. And Indian Navy knows that very well.


----------



## PakFactor

BON PLAN said:


> Just a question of time to have the answer.
> 
> Logistically to have a so small fleet of SH18, when IAF already have all the spare parts, test bench, training,... for Rafale, will be a nightmare. And Indian Navy knows that very well.



I feel it might be the Rafale as well, and it would be sensible, considering the logistics and know-how of the aircraft will be shared between the two branches. Another main benefit is the decades of experience on Franch platforms; going with American while good would be an unnecessary burden. But we've seen stranger things happen.

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## BON PLAN



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## Abdul Rehman Majeed

PakFactor said:


> I feel it might be the Rafale as well, and it would be sensible, considering the logistics and know-how of the aircraft will be shared between the two branches. Another main benefit is the decades of experience on Franch platforms; going with American while good would be an unnecessary burden. But we've seen stranger things happen.



Unlike F/A18SH, Rafale wings don't fold. So it won't fit into small Indian carrier elevators.



BON PLAN said:


> View attachment 903060



I heard that French will allow integration of Indian BVRMs on Rafales only if India buys more Rafales.


----------



## BON PLAN

Abdul Rehman Majeed said:


> I heard that French will allow integration of Indian BVRMs on Rafales only if India buys more Rafales.


No.
It was inked in the first batch purchase. As Israeli glide bombs (Hammer is "only" a complement).




Abdul Rehman Majeed said:


> Unlike F/A18SH, Rafale wings don't fold. So it won't fit into small Indian carrier elevators.


It's true (for wings). But if it was impossible to fit the elevator, Dassault will never have spent money for tests. 
So or there is space, or the leevators will be enlarged, or Dassault found an easy solution.


----------



## MirageBlue

Abdul Rehman Majeed said:


> Unlike F/A18SH, Rafale wings don't fold. So it won't fit into small Indian carrier elevators.
> 
> 
> 
> I heard that French will allow integration of Indian BVRMs on Rafales only if India buys more Rafales.



The French are laying the ground for making the Rafale the most attractive (it already is the most obvious) 114 MRFA competition contestant via commonality with the existing 36 Rafales and also by allowing the addition of Indian weapons. Astra Mk2 and Astra Mk3 will follow on once the Astra Mk1 is integrated. 

the Indian developed NG-ARM is the next obvious candidate, given that SEAD/DEAD is a big issue and the Rafale lags in this aspect. NG-ARM (aka Rudram 1) is already integrated to the Su-30MKI, but the Rafale will be definitely on the list as well.



BON PLAN said:


> No.
> It was inked in the first batch purchase. As Israeli glide bombs (Hammer is "only" a complement).
> 
> 
> 
> It's true (for wings). But if it was impossible to fit the elevator, Dassault will never have spent money for tests.
> So or there is space, or the leevators will be enlarged, or Dassault found an easy solution.


 Elevators definitely won't be touched. It is a massive undertaking and if the Rafale M doesn't fit the elevators, then it's out. 

Clearly Dassault would've studied the issue very closely and a solution exists, else they wouldn't have spent the millions to send 2 Rafale Ms to Goa to conduct carrier compatibility testing off the STBF at INS Hansa.

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## BON PLAN

*France’s Rafale jets are frontrunner in race for Indian Navy contract*

Forward movement by the Indian Navy would mean that the proposal for more Rafale jets for the IAF is also likely to gather speed.









France's Rafale jets are frontrunner in race for Indian Navy contract


Forward movement by the Indian Navy would mean that the proposal for more Rafale jets for the IAF is also likely to gather speed.




theprint.in





"Asked whether the lift size of India’s indigenous aircraft carrier INS Vikrant would be an issue, sources said both aircraft had to be brought up and down at a certain angle. While the wings of Super Hornets fold — unlike the Rafale — *these still had to be brought up and down at a certain angle. Both aircraft also have a separate process in which the wings fold.*"



MirageBlue said:


> the Indian developed NG-ARM is the next obvious candidate, given that SEAD/DEAD is a big issue and the Rafale lags in this aspect.


I hope France to purchase a SEAD/DEAD weapon. Why not the indian one ?


----------



## Abdul Rehman Majeed

MirageBlue said:


> Elevators definitely won't be touched. It is a massive undertaking and if the Rafale M doesn't fit the elevators, then it's out.
> 
> Clearly Dassault would've studied the issue very closely and a solution exists, else they wouldn't have spent the millions to send 2 Rafale Ms to Goa to conduct carrier compatibility testing off the STBF at INS Hansa.



You are planning to operate Rafale-M from your shore bases not from your Aircraft Carriers.


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## MirageBlue

Abdul Rehman Majeed said:


> You are planning to operate Rafale-M from your shore bases not from your Aircraft Carriers.


 What does that even mean? Rafale Ms wouldn't be needed if there wasn't the issue of the INS Vikrant and it's embarked fighters.

Anyway, there are news reports that the IN has submitted it's report to the MoD and the Rafale is the frontrunner as per those news reports.



BON PLAN said:


> *France’s Rafale jets are frontrunner in race for Indian Navy contract*
> 
> Forward movement by the Indian Navy would mean that the proposal for more Rafale jets for the IAF is also likely to gather speed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> France's Rafale jets are frontrunner in race for Indian Navy contract
> 
> 
> Forward movement by the Indian Navy would mean that the proposal for more Rafale jets for the IAF is also likely to gather speed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theprint.in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Asked whether the lift size of India’s indigenous aircraft carrier INS Vikrant would be an issue, sources said both aircraft had to be brought up and down at a certain angle. While the wings of Super Hornets fold — unlike the Rafale — *these still had to be brought up and down at a certain angle. Both aircraft also have a separate process in which the wings fold.*"
> 
> 
> I hope France to purchase a SEAD/DEAD weapon. Why not the indian one ?



Ideally speaking the French should evaluate the NG-ARM and if it suits them, then go ahead and order them. But I'm assuming that won't happen with MBDA not being pleased with any such order going to anyone else but them.


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## BON PLAN

MirageBlue said:


> Ideally speaking the French should evaluate the NG-ARM and if it suits them, then go ahead and order them. But I'm assuming that won't happen with MBDA not being pleased with any such order going to anyone else but them.


Not only this missile, but also Brahmos mini as, at least, an interim solution in air to sea.
MDBA has a lobby power, but armys need now new weapons, and India is a closer ally. Why not a deal Rafale against missiles?

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## Abdul Rehman Majeed

MirageBlue said:


> What does that even mean? Rafale Ms wouldn't be needed if there wasn't the issue of the INS Vikrant and it's embarked fighters.
> 
> Anyway, there are news reports that the IN has submitted it's report to the MoD and the Rafale is the frontrunner as per those news reports.



I thought my post was clear enough.

Indian Navy will operate Rafale-M from the shore bases and not from the Air craft carriers as Rafale-M will not fit in the elevators of the Indian Aircraft carriers.


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## MirageBlue

Abdul Rehman Majeed said:


> I thought my post was clear enough.
> 
> Indian Navy will operate Rafale-M from the shore bases and not from the Air craft carriers as Rafale-M will not fit in the elevators of the Indian Aircraft carriers.


Lol..ok whatever. Surely you know better than the IN and Dassault.



BON PLAN said:


> Not only this missile, but also Brahmos mini as, at least, an interim solution in air to sea.
> MDBA has a lobby power, but armys need now new weapons, and India is a closer ally. Why not a deal Rafale against missiles?


It would work out great, except that like you said, MBDA has a big lobby and would not allow for Indian exports, even for a weapon like NG-ARM for which MBDA has no proven alternative. 

Given that Indo-French defence trade is completely one way, it would be a welcome change to see exports going to France from India, in areas where the cost and quality of Indian weapons works out to fill niche areas where there is no French equivalent available.


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## INDIAPOSITIVE

India and other Rafale operators to get French Hypersonic ALCM – Indian Defence Research Wing







idrw.org


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## MirageBlue

IAF Rafale

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## BON PLAN

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1601926957947654152

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## BON PLAN

*"The first Rafale vs F -16 "friendly" battles over the Aegean seem to have a clear winner and that is none other than the French "gust of wind"*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1603814024931848192

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## MirageBlue

Final 36th Rafale (actually the first Rafale built for India) has landed in India, completing the deliveries of all 36 Rafales to India. RB-008 was in France, as part of the testing of the India Specific Enhancements package that was paid for separately.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1603276297626882048

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## SQ8

This is huge - makes the IAF jump ahead of any threat it faces if this can be implemented across the fleet. Better than the mess on the Russian fleet and retrofit the M2ks.

"the Rafale F4 will be optimised for collaborative warfare. A new 3D localisation mode will become available with the F4.1 Standard, allowing pilots within the same mission to determine passively, but with an extremely high level of precision, the location of a target and to share it with the rest of the force. This multiple aircraft 3D localisation, a kind of collaborative triangulation performed via the L16 datalink initially, will permit an unambiguous air-to-air and air-to-surface tactical picture to be built automatically, with the Spectra self-defence/electronic warfare suite passively detecting all radar emitters in the area, be they from surface-to-air missiles batteries or from combat aircraft." The Rafale F4.1 collaborative warfare combat capabilities will also cover target designation thanks to the development of a new FMDL mode used for third party target designation.


FMDL (Fighter to Missile Data Link)

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## BON PLAN

SQ8 said:


> This is huge - makes the IAF jump ahead of any threat it faces if this can be implemented across the fleet. Better than the mess on the Russian fleet and retrofit the M2ks.
> 
> "the Rafale F4 will be optimised for collaborative warfare. A new 3D localisation mode will become available with the F4.1 Standard, allowing pilots within the same mission to determine passively, but with an extremely high level of precision, the location of a target and to share it with the rest of the force. This multiple aircraft 3D localisation, a kind of collaborative triangulation performed via the L16 datalink initially, will permit an unambiguous air-to-air and air-to-surface tactical picture to be built automatically, with the Spectra self-defence/electronic warfare suite passively detecting all radar emitters in the area, be they from surface-to-air missiles batteries or from combat aircraft." The Rafale F4.1 collaborative warfare combat capabilities will also cover target designation thanks to the development of a new FMDL mode used for third party target designation.
> 
> 
> FMDL (Fighter to Missile Data Link)


Multistatism radar is to come in a late F4 standard (F4.3 ???) or F5. It will be another step to detect VLO birds at long range.


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## SQ8

BON PLAN said:


> Multistatism radar is to come in a late F4 standard (F4.3 ???) or F5. It will be another step to detect VLO birds at long range.


Seems to be F5 and dependent upon how TARAMMAA goes


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## Horse_Rider

INDIAPOSITIVE said:


> India and other Rafale operators to get French Hypersonic ALCM – Indian Defence Research Wing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idrw.org



What's the point of doing that when you have a capable platform, i.e. Brahmos and NG-ARM combo?

Also, does anyone has a list of block 4.2 and 5 from the French MoD, with updated specs India would pay for separately?


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## BON PLAN

SQ8 said:


> Seems to be F5 and dependent upon how TARAMMAA goes


TARAMMAA is part of F4








Le projet TARAMMAA, le nouveau radar du Rafale F4


Le radar RBE2, qui équipe actuellement les chasseurs Rafale français, fut à son lancement l’un des appareils de poursuite et de détection les plus avancés du moment




www.enderi.fr





It is already a success as F4 shedule is clear and followed without problem.





Horse_Rider said:


> What's the point of doing that when you have a capable platform, i.e. Brahmos and NG-ARM combo?
> 
> Also, does anyone has a list of block 4.2 and 5 from the French MoD, with updated specs India would pay for separately?


For F4 this is what we can easily found (sorry, it's in french) :

View attachment 907191
View attachment 907192

View attachment 907195


For F5 : nothing officially leaked.
The french forumers think about conformal radars, Of course GaN everywhere. Add on on frame to improbe stealth. New weapons (nuc missile AS4G , successor of Exocet and SCALP)


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## Lord Of Gondor

India: the Rafale Marine close to embarking on the aircraft carrier INS Vikrant
@BON PLAN how reliable is this report?


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## BON PLAN

Lord Of Gondor said:


> India: the Rafale Marine close to embarking on the aircraft carrier INS Vikrant
> @BON PLAN how reliable is this report?


I don't know.
It seems nearly official that SH18 failed technically.
The very last rumors is that an annoumcement is to be made in march following the trip of macron in India. Is it just for 26 Rafale M ? Is it for 26 M and 36 new for IAF? other?

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## Hephaestus

BON PLAN said:


> I don't know.
> It seems nearly official that SH18 failed technically.
> The very last rumors is that an annoumcement is to be made in march following the trip of macron in India. Is it just for 26 Rafale M ? Is it for 26 M and 36 new for IAF? other?


I am praying it's 26 + 4 (twin seaters) for IN & 38 for IAF.
🙏


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## MirageBlue

Hephaestus said:


> I am praying it's 26 + 4 (twin seaters) for IN & 38 for IAF.
> 🙏



That is unlikely. The IAF had the option of curtailing the MRFA contest and going with more Rafales instead. But they have chosen to continue with the 114 MRFA only, the RFP for which hasn't even been released as yet.

What will be signed (if at all) will be most likely just 26 Rafale Ms with 22 single seaters and 4 Rafale twin seaters to be based at INS Hansa (Goa) or INS Dega (Vizag) given that INS Vikrant is to be based at Vizag.

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## Lord Of Gondor

India: the Rafale Marine close to embarking on the aircraft carrier INS Vikrant
@BON PLAN how reliable is this report?


BON PLAN said:


> I don't know.
> It seems nearly official that SH18 failed technically.
> The very last rumors is that an annoumcement is to be made in march following the trip of macron in India. Is it just for 26 Rafale M ? Is it for 26 M and 36 new for IAF? other?


Thanks.
Rafale is just the right fit as most vets are still in love with the Alize's.
All the best to team Vikrant.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/892699985812234243

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## Hephaestus

MirageBlue said:


> That is unlikely. The IAF had the option of curtailing the MRFA contest and going with more Rafales instead. But they have chosen to continue with the 114 MRFA only, the RFP for which hasn't even been released as yet.
> 
> What will be signed (if at all) will be most likely just 26 Rafale Ms with 22 single seaters and 4 Rafale twin seaters to be based at INS Hansa (Goa) or INS Dega (Vizag) given that INS Vikrant is to be based at Vizag.


Yes, that seems to be the most likely scenario.


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## Indos

Order intake, deliveries and backlog of new aircraft as at December 31, 2022​
RECEPTION
GROUP
PRESS
PRESS KITS
ORDER INTAKE, DELIVERIES AND BACKLOG OF NEW AIRCRAFT AS AT DECEMBER 31, 2022
Order intake, deliveries and backlog in number of new aircraft at 31 December 2022 (data not audited by the Statutory Auditors)
©Dassault Aviation
Order intake, deliveries and backlog in number of new aircraft at 31 December 2022 (data not audited by the Statutory Auditors)
AIRCRAFT ORDERED IN 2022​*92 Rafale Export were ordered (80 United Arab Emirates, 6 Greece, 6 Indonesia),* compared to 49 (37 Rafale Export and 12 Rafale France) in 2021.
64 Falcon(*) have been ordered, compared to 51 in 2021.
(*) This figure is net of cancellations of Russian orders.









Prises de commandes, livraisons et carnet de commandes en nombre d’avions neufs au 31 décembre 2022 - Press kits de Dassault Aviation


Prises de commandes, livraisons et carnet de commandes en nombre d’avions neufs au 31 décembre 2022 (données non auditées par les Commissaires aux Comptes) © Dassault Aviation




www.dassault-aviation.com


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## MirageBlue

IAF video on the Rafales of the No.17 'Golden Arrows' squadron based at AFS Ambala. 

Elbit Targo II HMDS visible.

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