# PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion



## Salza

*First direct and official confirmation of J10C induction by PAF.*






watch after 6.00

Though the news source was posted by someone in New PAF fighter plane doctrine earlier today but I believe , the news itself deserved a new thread since there still have been an ambiguity about J10C induction into PAF until now.

Sheikh Rasheed always been a big mouth but nevertheless he is an interior minister of Pakistan right now. No joke!
special tagging @Zarvan : d

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## RangeMaster

欢迎

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## JawadKKhan

Waiting to see "JS-10" !

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Politicians need to tag mileage! Anyway, it's a good one, especially while being dombaredrd with the fake bravado from the Hindutas...

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## IceCold

The news we have all been waiting for......finally! 
It will be a sight to behold flying in Pakistani colors.

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## RangeMaster

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476097936685772801

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476097358672932869

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## Riz

WoW

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## vi-va

Waiting for PAF painting.

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## Shabi1

Now only if we can get the PDM walai to delay their activities after 23rd march, its a poor choice of dates for a dharna. They can hate IK, that's their own choice but in the process they routinely cross the line and be anti Pakistan.

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## vi-va

Anyone knew the cost?

*At €7.8B, Why Indian Rafale Jets Are ‘Double The Cost’ Than Egyptian Rafales?*
*Rafale deal controversy*

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## Riz

vi-va said:


> Anyone knew the cost?
> 
> *At €7.8B, Why Indian Rafale Jets Are ‘Double The Cost’ Than Egyptian Rafales?*
> *Rafale deal controversy*


No one is willing to sale BVRs to Egypt, indian rafales coming with better equipment

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## dilpakistani

oo yaar issko tu koi goli maar dai sawab ka kaam samjh kai.. yea har cheez ko cheap aur wahiyat bana daita hai.. victory in t20 ko islam ki victory 😣 j10c rafale kai mukabalay mai utar rahay hain ... khoti ka khur hai yea

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## SecularNationalist

Let's see....
I can't trust sheeda Tali statements

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## Rafi

There is other stuff.......nuff said

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## Mav3rick

Shabi1 said:


> Now only if we can get the PDM walai to delay their activities after 23rd march, its a poor choice of dates for a dharna. They can hate IK, that's their own choice but in the process they routinely cross the line and be anti Pakistan.



Yes, exactly......especially when Imran Khan was so considerate with his Dharna; right?

On a serious note, J-10C against Rafale!!! I wonder how good the J-10C are and how they would perform against Rafale, Spectra and the French BVR.

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## The Terminator

Salza said:


> *First direct and official confirmation of J10C induction by PAF.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> watch after 6.00
> 
> Though the news source was posted by someone in New PAF fighter plane doctrine earlier today but I believe , the news itself deserved a new thread since there still have been an ambiguity about J10C induction into PAF until now.
> 
> Sheikh Rasheed always been a big mouth but nevertheless he is an interior minister of Pakistan right now. No joke!
> special tagging @Zarvan : d


Sheikhu zindabad at last someone officially broke silence about J-10C induction. PAK Armed forces are becoming more and more enigmatic and tight lipped as the time passes by.


SecularNationalist said:


> Let's see....
> I can't trust sheeda Tali statements


But don't forget that "sheeda Tali" is pindi boy and have always been really close to our military's top brass.

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## The Terminator

Mav3rick said:


> Yes, exactly......especially when Imran Khan was so considerate with his Dharna; right?
> 
> On a serious note, J-10C against Rafale!!! I wonder how good the J-10C are and how they would perform against Rafale, Spectra and the French BVR.


Pl-15 on J-10 would balance out French BVR. It's a stated policy of PAF that they would retain upper hand in BVR engagements and outrange PAF no matter what. As long as Govt of Pakistan have $$ to pay or take loan our armed forces would maintain a certain qualitative edge over its prime adversary

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## vi-va

Riz said:


> No one is willing to sale BVRs to Egypt, indian rafales coming with better equipment


True, but there are rumor that Egypt will get meteor. 
Also MBDA SCALP cruise missile appeared for the first time in official Egyptian military media.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1199423211190009856








France and the Sale of Rafale to Egypt: Sans Meteor - Second Line of Defense


By Pierre Tran Paris – France withheld the sale of the Meteor long-range, air-to-air missile to Egypt in response to a request from Israel, an arms specialist said. That French decision to forego an order for the Meteor missile differed from an initial withholding of the Scalp cruise missile to...




sldinfo.com









Egyptian Air Force displays SCALP cruise missile


An MBDA SCALP cruise missile appeared for the first time in official Egyptian military media when one was seen in a 2 February video of a joint exercise with the French...



www.janes.com

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## Mav3rick

The Terminator said:


> Pl-15 on J-10 would balance out French BVR. It's a stated policy of PAF that they would retain upper hand in BVR engagements and outrange PAF no matter what. As long as Govt of Pakistan have $$ to pay or take loan our armed forces would maintain a certain qualitative edge over its prime adversary



It is not just about the Missile(s) but the SPECTRA suite on Rafale which sets the French jets apart from most competition. With SPECTRA, the Jets virtually become stealth and do not appear on enemy sensors.

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## Erroroverload

Rafi said:


> There is other stuff.......nuff said


that nuff said is really irritating us for many years.

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## IblinI

How authentic is this man?

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## NA71

JawadKKhan said:


> Waiting to see "JS-10" !


JS-10= S stantds for "Shiekh" 


IblinI said:


> How authentic is this man?


FilHaal tu 100%

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## Imran Khan

god damn we want stealth even j31 for hell sake

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## NA71

25 Jets in single flypast? Last time Noor Khan did it with F-86s ...16 Jets were included if i am not wrong.

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## alee92nawaz

Imran Khan said:


> god damn we want stealth even j31 for hell sake


Bhai jb IMF se dollars mang rahy hon to procurement announce ni ki jati. Backlash ata ha. Ho skta ha J-31 bh araha hoo.


NA71 said:


> 25 Jets in single flypast? Last time Noor Khan did it with F-86s ...16 Jets were included if i am not wrong.


Probably confused the fly past with induction of 25 jets.

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## NA71

"On February 2, 1958, a formation of 16 PAF F-86 Sabre aircraft performed a loop for the first time during an air display at Masroor Air Base at Karachi".

Also:

25 Jets means one and a half squadron will be delivered soon. Rest (11 Nos.) will be delivered on wards ...

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

@PanzerKiel why laugh reaction 🧐

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## NA71

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> @PanzerKiel why laugh reaction 🧐


probably due to new name: JS-10 instead of J-10C ....

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## 313ghazi

Great news to start the morning too. J-10C in PAF confirmed.

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## Salza

So this means in March, PAF inbound J10C will hit Pakistani airspace . All those sky watchers brace yourself for the photos during the rehearsals ....lets see who will post the first pictures here on the pdf before the official event

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## Salza

Tagging @kursed

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## Bilal.

Mav3rick said:


> It is not just about the Missile(s) but the SPECTRA suite on Rafale which sets the French jets apart from most competition. With SPECTRA, the Jets virtually become stealth and do not appear on enemy sensors.


No. Here is a pretty detailed description beyond the hype and what SPECTRA is actually capable of by @SQ8 :








JF-17 fighter jet gets J-20’s combat missile: reports (Global times)


The Chinese flew their Y-8 ELINT platforms everyday the token Indian Rafale’s were in the air during their “confrontation” last year. Sometimes two at time. Correct - there will be a dual axis attempt from the north or on the eastern front to gather, understand and evaluation entire capability...



defence.pk

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## SD 10

Salza said:


> *First direct and official confirmation of J10C induction by PAF.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> watch after 6.00
> 
> Though the news source was posted by someone in New PAF fighter plane doctrine earlier today but I believe , the news itself deserved a new thread since there still have been an ambiguity about J10C induction into PAF until now.
> 
> Sheikh Rasheed always been a big mouth but nevertheless he is an interior minister of Pakistan right now. No joke!
> special tagging @Zarvan : d

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## MH.Yang

Can this news be confirmed to be true? Can I forward it to the forum in China?

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## IceCold

Rafi said:


> There is other stuff.......nuff said


Bhai tu nuff said na ker....thori details share ker da mehrbani farma ka.....

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## Bilal.

IblinI said:


> How authentic is this man?





MH.Yang said:


> Can this news be confirmed to be true? Can I forward it to the forum in China?


He is a senior minister, so…

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## SD 10

MH.Yang said:


> Can this news be confirmed to be true? Can I forward it to the forum in China?


He is the interior minister of Pakistan plus very close to military establishment.

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## kingQamaR

anything from Chinese sources ?


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## Ghessan

Sheikh sb sometimes narrate his last night dream in the press conference next morning without realizing he was dreaming or sitting in a meeting so ... 

besides, i don't think his figure of 25 is correct, if that is so then planes in batches must start delivering, it wouldn't be like they will all be in one lot.

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## beijingwalker

*Pakistan Air Force ready to induct J-10C fighter jets in 2022*
According to details, the Chines made J-10C is a modern single-engine delta wings fighter jet. The J-10C can identify multiple targets simultaneously. Moreover, it is equipped with PL-15 missiles that can hit targets up to 200 km.

ByNews Desk
17 December 2021







Pakistan Air Force is all set to induct the J-10C fighter jets next year. The sophisticated aircraft will make Pakistan’s airspace invincible.

According to details, the Chines made J-10C is a modern single-engine delta wings fighter jet. The J-10C can identify multiple targets simultaneously. Moreover, it is equipped with PL-15 missiles that can hit targets up to 200 km.

Furthermore, as per reports, the single-engine tail-less canard delta wing J-10C features fly-by-wire flight controls and an AESA fire control radar. Made of composite materials for high strength and lower weight, the J-10C’s internal armament consists of a Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23 twin-barrel cannon, located underneath the port side of the intake.

Important to note, the J-10C also took part in the Pakistan-China joint exercise Shaheen, during which it successfully hit all targets. Due to their close military ties, Pakistan and China hold Joint Air Exercises every year. Pakistan hosted the first such drill in March 2011.

Both sides conduct these joint exercises to learn combat capabilities from each other. Air forces from both sides focus on large-scale confrontation, including large-scale aerial battles and the use of forces in mass and close-quarters aerial support.

During the successful ninth joint air exercise, Pakistan sent warplanes including the Jf-17 and Mirage III fighter jets. Meanwhile, China sent the J-10C, J-11B fighter jets, KJ-500 early warning aircraft, and Y-8 electronic warfare aircraft.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172121967325077504
Interestingly, many aspects of the J-10C mid-sized fighter jet, including the size, aerodynamic characteristics, aviation land weapon systems, and overall combat capability, are comparable to the France-made Rafale, a type of fighter jet in service with the Indian Air Force (IAF).

*France and India’s Rafale deal*
In 2015, the Indian government signed a defense deal with French aviation company Dassault to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets. According to latest reports, France will have delivered a total of 35 Omni-role Rafale fighters by the end of 2021.

The Rafale is a twin-jet fighter aircraft able to operate from both an aircraft carrier and a shore base. The versatile Rafale is able to carry out all combat aviation missions including air superiority and air defense, close air support, in-depth strikes, reconnaissance, anti-ship strikes and nuclear deterrence.

The deal came as IAF reported facing an acute shortage of aircraft, as most of the in-service fighters will retire soon. Moreover, the existing MiG-21s have been prone to accidents; 482 out of 872 MiG-21s procured crashed between 1971 and April 2012 — a loss of 12 jets each year.

It is believed that after repeated upgrades, the MiG-21s, MiG-23, and MiG-27 will be phased out from 2022 onwards.









Pakistan Air Force ready to induct J-10C fighter jets in 2022


Pakistan Air Force is all set to induct the J-10C fighter jets next year. The J-10C can identify multiple targets simultaneously.




www.globalvillagespace.com

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## Deino

Which unit is expected to get them first?


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## Cool_Soldier

Finally, the news broke, we all were waiting. J10 C will be delivered soon to PAF ,most probably in coming month Jan 2022.
Anyways, Sheikh Rasheed made my day.
Thank you Govt and Thank you PAF/Armed Forces

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## wali87

j10s have been in our service since August of this year.

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## alphapak

Congrats to both China and Pakistan, this is the final nail in the coffin of F16's. The future 4th gen
fighter jets will be the J10's and JF17's.

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## RealNapster

NA71 said:


> 25 Jets in single flypast? Last time Noor Khan did it with F-86s ...16 Jets were included if i am not wrong.



I think he mean Squadron # 25

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## IceCold

beijingwalker said:


> *Pakistan Air Force ready to induct J-10C fighter jets in 2022*
> According to details, the Chines made J-10C is a modern single-engine delta wings fighter jet. The J-10C can identify multiple targets simultaneously. Moreover, it is equipped with PL-15 missiles that can hit targets up to 200 km.
> 
> ByNews Desk
> 17 December 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Air Force is all set to induct the J-10C fighter jets next year. The sophisticated aircraft will make Pakistan’s airspace invincible.
> 
> According to details, the Chines made J-10C is a modern single-engine delta wings fighter jet. The J-10C can identify multiple targets simultaneously. Moreover, it is equipped with PL-15 missiles that can hit targets up to 200 km.
> 
> Furthermore, as per reports, the single-engine tail-less canard delta wing J-10C features fly-by-wire flight controls and an AESA fire control radar. Made of composite materials for high strength and lower weight, the J-10C’s internal armament consists of a Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23 twin-barrel cannon, located underneath the port side of the intake.
> 
> Important to note, the J-10C also took part in the Pakistan-China joint exercise Shaheen, during which it successfully hit all targets. Due to their close military ties, Pakistan and China hold Joint Air Exercises every year. Pakistan hosted the first such drill in March 2011.
> 
> Both sides conduct these joint exercises to learn combat capabilities from each other. Air forces from both sides focus on large-scale confrontation, including large-scale aerial battles and the use of forces in mass and close-quarters aerial support.
> 
> During the successful ninth joint air exercise, Pakistan sent warplanes including the Jf-17 and Mirage III fighter jets. Meanwhile, China sent the J-10C, J-11B fighter jets, KJ-500 early warning aircraft, and Y-8 electronic warfare aircraft.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1172121967325077504
> Interestingly, many aspects of the J-10C mid-sized fighter jet, including the size, aerodynamic characteristics, aviation land weapon systems, and overall combat capability, are comparable to the France-made Rafale, a type of fighter jet in service with the Indian Air Force (IAF).
> 
> *France and India’s Rafale deal*
> In 2015, the Indian government signed a defense deal with French aviation company Dassault to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets. According to latest reports, France will have delivered a total of 35 Omni-role Rafale fighters by the end of 2021.
> 
> The Rafale is a twin-jet fighter aircraft able to operate from both an aircraft carrier and a shore base. The versatile Rafale is able to carry out all combat aviation missions including air superiority and air defense, close air support, in-depth strikes, reconnaissance, anti-ship strikes and nuclear deterrence.
> 
> The deal came as IAF reported facing an acute shortage of aircraft, as most of the in-service fighters will retire soon. Moreover, the existing MiG-21s have been prone to accidents; 482 out of 872 MiG-21s procured crashed between 1971 and April 2012 — a loss of 12 jets each year.
> 
> It is believed that after repeated upgrades, the MiG-21s, MiG-23, and MiG-27 will be phased out from 2022 onwards.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Air Force ready to induct J-10C fighter jets in 2022
> 
> 
> Pakistan Air Force is all set to induct the J-10C fighter jets next year. The J-10C can identify multiple targets simultaneously.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.globalvillagespace.com


Has the Chinese J-20 ever participated in any of the exercises with the PAF? Just curious.


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## Trailer23

alphapak said:


> Congrats to both China and Pakistan, this is the final nail in the coffin of F16's.


Man..., you & your obsession with the F-16.

Just because PAF is getting J-10's does NOT mean the higher PAF leadership won't still pursue Vipers.

Now that is an entirely different thing the US doesn't play ball. Which is perfectly fine if they are NOT interested.

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## Zarvan

25 jets is over exaggeration but yes they will fly on 23rd INSHALLAH


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## RangeMaster

Deino said:


> Which unit is expected to get them first?


New squadron was raised a few days back, No 50 "Saf Shikans". Mirages from No 15 Squadron were transferred to newly raised No 50. 
I guess one of either No 15 or 50 will be equipped with J10Cs.

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## NA71

RealNapster said:


> I think he mean Squadron # 25



No.... he doesn't know anything beyond what he has been told to open his mouth in public.

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## Trailer23

RangeMaster said:


> I guess one of either No 15 or 50 will be equipped with J10Cs.


Well, the Patch was designed by a buddy of mine which represents Mirages', so its pretty clear that No. 50 will have Mirages'.

No. 15 Sqn (Cobras) will have J-10's...

Only question is how many of those will be Cobras and where the rest be relocated.

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## NA71

what about the idea that some of these jets are already flying in the cool air

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## Surya 1

How can Pakistan receive 25 J10 in less than 3 month's time?


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## abdulbarijan

Surya 1 said:


> How can Pakistan receive 25 J10 in less than 3 month's time?


I'll take this news with a grain of salt, our politicians aren't exactly the best source of information as far military matters are concerned.

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## Raider 21

NA71 said:


> 25 Jets in single flypast? Last time Noor Khan did it with F-86s ...16 Jets were included if i am not wrong.


Not only. In 1987, PAF flew 38 F-16s during the March 23rd flypast, of which 36 flew in 4-ship pairs from No. 9,11 and 14 squadrons, with No. 14 leading the F-16 group. They flew very very low back then. The remainder two were used for the air chief leading to start the flypast and the other was a solo aircraft flown by No. 14 Squadron OC.

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## Shah_Deu

Surya 1 said:


> How can Pakistan receive 25 J10 in less than 3 month's time?


3 months is a long time to receive, theoretically you can also receive 25 jets in one day. No one mentioned that the jets would be produced in the next 3 months. If we are to receive 25 jets by March, in all probability these jets have already been produced and must be in the end of line testing phase. But as mentioned by the posters above, it is quacking like a duck and it has to be one. It is no more a question of if but when and how many.


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## Mav3rick

Bilal. said:


> No. Here is a pretty detailed description beyond the hype and what SPECTRA is actually capable of by @SQ8 :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JF-17 fighter jet gets J-20’s combat missile: reports (Global times)
> 
> 
> The Chinese flew their Y-8 ELINT platforms everyday the token Indian Rafale’s were in the air during their “confrontation” last year. Sometimes two at time. Correct - there will be a dual axis attempt from the north or on the eastern front to gather, understand and evaluation entire capability...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk



That seems to be oversimplification of SPECTRA, especially when all its features would not have been exposed to the Chinese; besides, it may have been developed in the 90's but it must be evolving and developing regularly as is the RAFALE itself with F4 being the latest and most advanced iteration.

Only air combat exercises against the Qatari (and later the Emirati) Rafale would expose the J-10C's to the full spectrum of capabilities. But I do not despair as I am confident our boys would have done their homework, especially after being hands on with the Qatari Rafale. 

However, I doubt Sh. Rasheed is correct that we are getting J-10C's; we should be getting the J-10D's.

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## TNT

So if its official, can i share a few pics now? I guess ill have to wait till official announcement.

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## Jungibaaz

Now PDF will spend the next 3 months and 100+ pages debating whether JS-10 is actually just a J-10C or something new.

The media will cover all of the other important questions in the meantime, sir is it nuclear capable? Sir but can it fly at night? Ok, but it’s the man behind the machine, right? Etc.

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## SD 10

TNT said:


> So if its official, can i share a few pics now? I guess ill have to wait till official announcement.


pics WHAT?????? share it

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## Surya 1

Shah_Deu said:


> 3 months is a long time to receive, you can also receive 25 jets in one day. No one mentioned that the jets would be produced in the next 3 months. If we are to receive 25 jets by March, in all probability these jets have already been produced and must be in the end of line testing phase. But as mentioned by the posters above, it is quacking like a duck and it has to be one. It is no more a question of if but when and how many.




Ohhhh Is it? Best of luck for that. We will know it in 3 months.


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## SD 10

Surya 1 said:


> Ohhhh Is it? Best of luck for that. We will know it in 3 months.


Let us worry about that!!!!!!

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## Vapnope

Surya 1 said:


> How can Pakistan receive 25 J10 in less than 3 month's time?


Probably because the order was placed a year or so ago.


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## Surya 1

SD 10 said:


> Let us worry about that!!!!!!



I am very much worried.


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## IceCold

TNT said:


> can i share a few pics now?


We hereby allow you to share all the pics.

Regards

Majority Defense.pk

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## ziaulislam

Surya 1 said:


> How can Pakistan receive 25 J10 in less than 3 month's time?


Order was placed 3-4 years ago
PAF just remains silent on these issues
Just like submarine order type 54 order and V4 tanks most of those were disclosed after construction or on delivery

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## SIPRA

IblinI said:


> How authentic is this man?



*ZERO  *

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## Polestar 2

I think order was place right after Shaheen 2020. J-10C and KJ-200 join that exercise for first time.

PLAAF J-10C participant are given total unrestricted asset utilised during that exercise and score major knockout of PAF side.


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## Deino

TNT said:


> So if its official, can i share a few pics now? I guess ill have to wait till official announcement.




Please go ahead ... but don't risk anything!

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## SIPRA

abdulbarijan said:


> I'll take this news with a grain of salt, our politicians aren't exactly the best source of information as far military matters are concerned.



Yes, particularly, when that politician is "Sheeda Tully".

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## Windjammer



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## RealNapster

IceCold said:


> We hereby allow you to share all the pics.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Majority Defense.pk



Haan. Ham dek Kay delete Kar dengy

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## Trailer23

I think by now its pretty apparent that the J-10's are coming - even the doubters have gotten hints by now.

The only thing now left to ponder is:

- How many?
- Cost?
- Delivery/Induction?
- And Flypast (which isn't relevant)

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## Riz

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 804328


 JS-10 = Joint Cigar (Sigar) smoking

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## Trango Towers

Surya 1 said:


> How can Pakistan receive 25 J10 in less than 3 month's time?


Unlike India....Pakistan keep quiet...maybe the order was placed 2 years ago. Maybe our pilots have done the conversion course. And like the jf17B suddenly there is a squadron ready.

Sheikh Rasheed got a few things mixed up. He is not of a military background

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## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 804328


Boo-Yah!!!

If I had his address, i'd send him a box of Cuban Cigars.

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## Raider 21

ziaulislam said:


> Order was placed 3-4 years ago
> PAF just remains silent on these issues
> Just like submarine order type 54 order and V4 tanks most of those were disclosed after construction or on delivery


Bullshit about 3-4 years ago


Trango Towers said:


> Unlike India....Pakistan keep quiet...maybe the order was placed 2 years ago. Maybe our pilots have done the conversion course. And like the jf17B suddenly there is a squadron ready.
> 
> Sheikh Rasheed got a few things mixed up. He is not of a military background


Negative. The rationale is behind funding. The aircraft is expensive.


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## _NOBODY_

Trailer23 said:


> Boo-Yah!!!
> 
> If I had his address, i'd send him a box of Cuban Cigars.


Cuban Cigars are quite expensive, do you smoke them?


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## Windjammer

Trailer23 said:


> Boo-Yah!!!
> 
> If I had his address, i'd send him a box of Cuban Cigars.


Very simple
Sheikh Rashid (Interior Minister) 
Lal Haveli, Near Murree Road. 
Rawalpindi.

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## PakShaheen79

Have no idea what impact of this acquisition will have on future export prospects of JF-17. I have this feeling that PAF had to get it in order to get full version of PL-15s.

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## Battlion25

Ze Chinese are stragetically doing there moves wisely here by reinforcing the iron gate

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## NA71

Surya 1 said:


> How can Pakistan receive 25 J10 in less than 3 month's time?



It was all started back in 2017....Pilots conversion training etc has already be completed much earlier ...the entire package is coming with yet another Surprise IA.

Shaikh Sb also said "barey barey loag aa rahey hein" ....may be he was referring to Chinese President's presence and the said flypast is arranged for him.

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## Trailer23

_NOBODY_ said:


> Cuban Cigars are quite expensive, do you smoke them?



Cuban Cigars are pretty expensive & could go in the thousands of Dollars, but there are (Cuban) brands that are some what affordable.

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## serenity

Mav3rick said:


> That seems to be oversimplification of SPECTRA, especially when all its features would not have been exposed to the Chinese; besides, it may have been developed in the 90's but it must be evolving and developing regularly as is the RAFALE itself with F4 being the latest and most advanced iteration.
> 
> Only air combat exercises against the Qatari (and later the Emirati) Rafale would expose the J-10C's to the full spectrum of capabilities. But I do not despair as I am confident our boys would have done their homework, especially after being hands on with the Qatari Rafale.
> 
> However, I doubt Sh. Rasheed is correct that we are getting J-10C's; we should be getting the J-10D's.



There is no J-10D version available for export yet. What Pakistan bought is probably J-10CE but more tailored for PAF. This doesn't mean it is a better version of J-10CE or a tailored to be cheaper version. We don't know much about the purchase.

J-10D was rumored on Chinese forums as either something that was speculated to be a PAF version of J-10CE or as a new block upgrade from J-10C.

It is very lucky PAF can train against Rafale and possibly even gain some sensitive insight although I doubt Qatar would allow this even if it is friends with friends this sort of revealing everything is rarely done or done with a high price. Still being able to learn some things about Rafale is good for PAF. The Indians have best version of Rafale which Egypt and Qatar do not use.

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## jamal18

I haven't got a dog in the fight, and I'm not throwing mud in anyones face, but where are the guys who said you'll never see the J-10 in Pakistani colours?

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## Imran Khan

Jungibaaz said:


> Now PDF will spend the next 3 months and 100+ pages debating whether JS-10 is actually just a J-10C or something new.
> 
> The media will cover all of the other important questions in the meantime, sir is it nuclear capable? Sir but can it fly at night? Ok, but it’s the man behind the machine, right? Etc.


and at the end when its come out it will be J-10BP

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## Trailer23

jamal18 said:


> I haven't got a dog in the fight, and I'm not throwing mud in anyones face, but where are the guys who said you'll never see the J-10 in Pakistani colours?


You mean the very ones who claimed that PAF rejected the J-10...

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## siegecrossbow

Told you so!

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## graphican

siegecrossbow said:


> Told you so!



J-10 was pretty clear and obvious. If you want to take a shot, take it on J-15s and JH-7s? So?

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## Battlion25

The Terminator said:


> Pl-15 on J-10 would balance out French BVR. It's a stated policy of PAF that they would retain upper hand in BVR engagements and outrange PAF no matter what. As long as Govt of Pakistan have $$ to pay or take loan our armed forces would maintain a certain qualitative edge over its prime adversary



This basically. The F16s are match for the Rafales but in order to gain the qualitative edge this was the move to do getting J10s with 200km BVR range.. This has to be a continuous process and goes onto in the 2029-2030s our plan has to be to induct MIUS and TFX which are two 5th generation unmanned and manned aircrafts the dice keeps rolling and we constantly keep that pace with India thru to until 2050s.... Keeping the qualitative edge.

On all sectors.

stragetic force operational level
Conventional operational level
Intelligence operational level

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## Cuirassier

so with the first batch going to reequip 15 Sqn, and the apparent raising of 50 Sqn to retain the Mirage a/c ex-15Sqn, which squadron gets the second batch? if it's 7 Sqn, it'll be interesting to see how the Mirage a/c of this squadron will be handled; either they raise another Sqn like Saf Shikan, or pass them on to one of the other non-ROSE Sqn, which in turn would part ways with it's a/c.

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## siegecrossbow

graphican said:


> J-10 was pretty clear and obvious. If you want to take a shot, take it on J-15s and JH-7s? So?



You wouldn’t say that it was obvious if you’ve followed the PAF Future fighter thread lol.

I won’t take a shot on J-15 and Jh-7 because chances of those happening are around zero.

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## Areesh

PAF ka F16 ka junoon

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un

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## The Eagle

TNT said:


> So if its official, can i share a few pics now? I guess ill have to wait till official announcement.



Any breach of security might lead to perma ban. If you have anything for your own information; do not violate the trust of source then. Any pic/detail might be shared if the Source allows and agrees to do so on purpose permitted officially, without harming Op-Sec/Military Info.

Regards,

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## siegecrossbow

IceCold said:


> Has the Chinese J-20 ever participated in any of the exercises with the PAF? Just curious.



Why would it have? Shaheen is about simulating Indian assets.

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## Battlion25

TNT said:


> So if its official, can i share a few pics now? I guess ill have to wait till official announcement.



Shared on our space.. We know where I am talking about.. Come over there


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## Ghessan

Trailer23 said:


> Boo-Yah!!!
> 
> If I had his address, i'd send him a box of Cuban Cigars.



Laal haveli
College Road, Rawalpindi College Road, 
Rawalpindi, 44000


send it...

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## IceCold

siegecrossbow said:


> Why would it have? Shaheen is about simulating Indian assets.


I get that but I was asking on the lines since PAF has participated with and against the likes of F-22. Considering the relationship between the two sides I was curious to know if we ever participated against the J-20 or in conjunction against mutual threats.


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## Trailer23

serenity said:


> There is no J-10D version available for export yet.
> 
> J-10D was rumored on Chinese forums as either something that was speculated to be a PAF version of J-10CE or as a new block upgrade from J-10C.


So, in other words it does not exist and is just a myth.

One would imagine it to be a dual-seater of the J-10C/E - which doesn't sound such a bad idea if the GIBS can be utilized as a Weapon Systems Officer.


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## HRK

TNT said:


> I guess ill have to wait till official announcement.


you must be a cool hearted person .... 😭😭😭

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## F86 Saber

So the cat is out of the bag, i would not be surprised if there are at least 3 already flying in our skies (that is what i heard was supposed to happen by December)
I only want to know if we are getting the standard version or and upgraded one. I am sure we will not know until India tries another 27/2 with Rafaels this time.


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## Ghessan

i don't care if 25 deliver or 5 by march

it would be a sight to behold if a PAF Pilot fly solo with some tight maneuvers depicting skills on this new plane in our inventory.

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## serenity

IceCold said:


> I get that but I was asking on the lines since PAF has participated with and against the likes of F-22. Considering the relationship between the two sides I was curious to know if we ever participated against the J-20 or in conjunction against mutual threats.



J-20 has not been given green light to participate in exercises outside China yet but with the only exception of participating in some Russian exercise last year but the participation's nature was not made known. Some speculate it is to give Russians a training against a different 5th gen that might simulate how F-35 or F-22 might be like to try and detect or simply there as a gesture to build the relationship since Russians were kind enough to fly their best fighter the Su-35 but this is questionable as the reason since Su-35 shown up in other exercises with China even after J-20 was in service.

Anyway that was the first time J-20 was allowed to participate in foreign exercise with signal intelligence equipment around. Maybe they all had luneberg lens on or maybe not we are not told. They might have just flown past for photos and not been used.

PAF is unlikely to train against J-20 unless India buys and has F-35 in IAF service. PAF may have participated in exercises that included F-22 but I do not think PAF has ever flown against F-22 in those exercises. Maybe they were just in the same event? I'm not sure. Anyway Americans have started allowing F-22 to participate with foreign exercises many many years after F-22 was in service. For China, there is no point since China's friendly exercise nations do not benefit from those exercises against J-20 unlike European airforces against F-22 since Su-57 and J-20 are around and also since Americans also wanted to show ability for sales and convince many that 5th gen is much better. Thailand will not buy or be offered J-20 anyway for example. There is simply no point. If IAF is flying F-35, I bet Shaheen will include J-20 or J-31/35.

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## siegecrossbow

SD 10 said:


> Let us worry about that!!!!!!



Yes let us worry about that. I'm so worried about CAC's production capacity.

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## Trailer23

Areesh said:


> PAF ka F16 ka junoon
> 
> Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un


Sir, don't be so quick to jump the gun.

(For Years) people said that PAF rejected the J-10. And here we are today.

As for the F-16...
Has US (officially) rejected Sale to Pakistan?
Has Pakistan (officially) rejected the F-16?

Unless those two questions be answered, its a worthless debate, but as I mentioned earlier - as long as the senior Leadership of the PAF has the Viper at the back of their head(s) - the door will always remain open.

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## mudas777

This year 23 March will be some sight to remember with new JF-17 block 3 and J -10C appearing in the Pakistani colours. Probably at last a message to the US too, F 16 darlings refusal opened the other doors for us. Final nail in the coffin will be if Zulu's replacement shows up from no where, imagine the sight of the US military attaché face with open mouth saying F**k me and glass of sherbet falling off his hand.  .

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## siegecrossbow

IceCold said:


> I get that but I was asking on the lines since PAF has participated with and against the likes of F-22. Considering the relationship between the two sides I was curious to know if we ever participated against the J-20 or in conjunction against mutual threats.



Red Flag is very different from Shaheen. But to answer your question, I don't believe so. Every year the inventory of aircraft used in Shaheen has been disclosed.

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## Windjammer

Don't want to jump to any conclusions but J-10 may not be the only thing happening.

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## SD 10

siegecrossbow said:


> Yes let us worry about that. I'm so worried about CAC's production capacity.
> 
> View attachment 804339


their whole purpose is creating doubt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Areesh said:


> PAF ka F16 ka junoon
> 
> Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un


SHUKAR AL HAMDULILAH

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## serenity

siegecrossbow said:


> Yes let us worry about that. I'm so worried about CAC's production capacity.
> 
> View attachment 804339



I would rather China keep all the J-10C made. We only have around 500 J-10 in total and around half are J-10A. Ideally PLAAF should have 500 J-10C.

Now the important question is how much the unit price sold is and package price.

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## Basel

Mav3rick said:


> It is not just about the Missile(s) but the SPECTRA suite on Rafale which sets the French jets apart from most competition. With SPECTRA, the Jets virtually become stealth and do not appear on enemy sensors.



It's not know how that system will perform against AESA radars as they are very difficult to spoof or jam.


Deino said:


> Which unit is expected to get them first?



Most probably No 15 Squadron.


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## ARMalik

*OLD News. This was reported more than a YEAR AGO by one of the X PDF members. *He reported months ago that J-10s *were being inducted*. And that would make sense because if you have J-10s flying-past on March 23 then it means the jets have already been inducted.

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## mudas777

Trailer23 said:


> As for the F-16...
> Has US (officially) rejected Sale to Pakistan?
> Has Pakistan (officially) rejected the F-16?



They denied the sale and even from the Jordon transfer of F 16 is denied by the US state department. Officially there is no ban on the arms sale but unofficially they are not considering any sales or transfer of weapons especially big ticket items to us. Same goes for the Zulu's transfer of choppers were denied. US state department crossed all the limits to teach us a lesson that even Pakistan getting choppers from the Turkey they stopped the sale of engines for it, how petty. How clear you want the message to be regardless of having no arms sale ban on us.

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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> Sir, don't be so quick to jump the gun.
> 
> (For Years) people said that PAF rejected the J-10. And here we are today.
> 
> As for the F-16...
> Has US (officially) rejected Sale to Pakistan?
> Has Pakistan (officially) rejected the F-16?
> 
> Unless those two questions be answered, its a worthless debate, but as I mentioned earlier - as long as the senior Leadership of the PAF has the Viper at the back of their head(s) - the door will always remain open.


20 years ago china economy was smaller then india(current)

Alot has changed in 20 years
25 years ago china only had f7

J10 has gone through three major upgrades

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## Zee-shaun



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## ziaulislam

mudas777 said:


> They denied the sale and even from the Jordon transfer of F 16 is denied by the US state department. Officially there is no ban on the arms sale but unofficially they are not considering any sales or transfer of weapons especially big ticket items to us. Same goes for the Zulu's transfer of choppers were denied. US state department crossed all the limits to teach us a lesson that even Pakistan getting choppers from the Turkey they stopped the sale of engines for it, how petty. How clear you want the message to be regardless of having no arms sale ban on us.


The turkey chopper sale was an indication that all western equipment sane pure european equipment transfer is dead

Why?
It has to do with sucessfull lobbying of india

Dont be surprised that 20 years from now india and china may become neutral and you may get a ban from china as well..!

Lesson here is self reliance or joint ventures WITH SIMILAR countries like ukrain turkey south africa. If u own part of IP then ban is less likely

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## Shotgunner51

siegecrossbow said:


> I'm so worried about CAC's production capacity.


I am more worried about the slow production rate of *WS-10C engine*. You know PLAAF's own J-10C, J-11B (spares needed), J-16, J-16D (electronic fighters), PLAN's J-15A, J-15T (catapult version) ... all waiting for the same exact engine! Even the J-20 (which is supposed to use 18.5 tons class WS-15) is now slicing the already small pie. The shortage is compounded by the fact that China has not ordered a single unit of AL31 since 2017.

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## siegecrossbow

serenity said:


> I would rather China keep all the J-10C made. We only have around 500 J-10 in total and around half are J-10A. Ideally PLAAF should have 500 J-10C.
> 
> Now the important question is how much the unit price sold is and package price.



Every J-10C sent to Pakistan is one less aircraft China has to maintain in Hotan.

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## ziaulislam

Shotgunner51 said:


> I am more worried about the slow production rate of *WS-10C engine*. You know PLAAF's own J-10C, J-11B (spares needed), J-16, J-16D (electronic fighters), PLAN's J-15A, J-15T (catapult version) ... all waiting for WS-10C! Even the J-20 (which is supposed to use 18.5 tons class WS-15) is now slicing the already small pie. The shortage is compounded by the fact that China has not ordered a single unit of AL31 since 2017.


Doubt 15-20 engines are going to be an issue
Its more about demand then production


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## Trailer23

mudas777 said:


> They denied the sale


They never denied the Sale, they just said that we had to pay for them out of our own pocket. We didn't - that's our loss.

Lets try to stay on topic & carry this conversation elsewhere before we get a slap on the wrist by the Mods.

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## Zarvan

The beast is on its way. Finally it's coming home.

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## siegecrossbow

Shotgunner51 said:


> I am more worried about the slow production rate of *WS-10C engine*. You know PLAAF's own J-10C, J-11B (spares needed), J-16, J-16D (electronic fighters), PLAN's J-15A, J-15T (catapult version) ... all waiting for the same exact engine! Even the J-20 (which is supposed to use 18.5 tons class WS-15) is now slicing the already small pie. The shortage is compounded by the fact that China has not ordered a single unit of AL31 since 2017.



I think you underestimate China's engine production capacity.

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## HRK

The Eagle said:


> If you have anything for your own information; do not violate the trust of source then. Any pic


bhai shaib he himself is a source .... I think you should recall his work

@TNT if you have no issue could you send me PM .... ??

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## The Eagle

Windjammer said:


> Don't want to jump to any conclusions but J-10 may not be the only thing happening.

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## Trailer23

Not that I wanna brag, but a lil' over 2 Years back is when the term* J-10P* became public when someone at CATIC accidently slipped on the '*P*' to me at the 2019 DxB Air Show.


Trailer23 said:


> *a.k.a J-10C ('E' for Export) tailored for International Customers.
> 
> 
> SPOILER ALERT:* Could be nothing - Could be everything.
> The guy was certainly curious why I was taking more interest in the J-10 as opposed to the JF-17 (being a Pakistani). My response was personal preference and the wished/hoped it being in the PAF inventory. His reply was & I quote, *"It will be!"*.
> Also which is really important for you guys to know that in our extensive conversation on the J-10 about Avionics, Engines & blah...blah...blah - there was a slip of the tongue when he accidentally said, *"...the J-10P"*. At that point I just froze, but didn't repeat or ask him further to clarify.

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## The Eagle

HRK said:


> bhai shaib he himself is a source .... I think you should recall his work
> 
> @TNT if you have no issue could you send me PM .... ??



Bhai... I was saying for the safe side. You know how sometimes it hits back at us.

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## TNT

The Eagle said:


> Any breach of security might lead to perma ban. If you have anything for your own information; do not violate the trust of source then. Any pic/detail might be shared if the Source allows and agrees to do so on purpose permitted officially, without harming Op-Sec/Military Info.
> 
> Regards,



There are other things to worry than perma ban lolz. And no i wont share it now, not untill the source allows it.

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## alphapak

Trailer23 said:


> Man..., you & your obsession with the F-16.
> 
> Just because PAF is getting J-10's does NOT mean the higher PAF leadership won't still pursue Vipers.
> 
> Now that is an entirely different thing the US doesn't play ball. Which is perfectly fine if they are NOT interested.



Man I am not obseesed with the F16's but there are peeople who still think U.S will sell F16's to Pak. Lol

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## Jinn Baba

25 J10 flypast???? 😲

He specifically said we have got these jets from China to match the Rafale. So it has to be J10s.

Could JS10 be a special designation?


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## Ali_Baba

Wow. This is pretty official to me.

Hopefully the J10Cs will be escorted by JF17 Block III's  and hopefully it will be in the lead - and finally displacing the F16 that has taken the lead in flybys for close to 2.5 decades now.

Is there any chance that the $5billion deal announced in 2015, was for 8 S20 submarines, the 300 VT4's, 4 Type 054A/P frigates and 25 J10C's at basically bargin basement prices - ie an offer that was too good to refuse? Did China sell these to Pakistan that the same prices that the PLAN, PLAAF, PLA pay for the same equipment? That $5 billion is the only deal that has been announced with China recently.






China to Deliver Eight S20 Submarines to Pakistan Navy based on PLAN's Type 039A SSK


China to Deliver Eight S20 Submarines to Pakistan Navy based on PLAN's Type 039A SSK




www.navyrecognition.com

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## Shotgunner51

siegecrossbow said:


> I think you underestimate China's engine production capacity.





ziaulislam said:


> Doubt 15-20 engines are going to be an issue
> Its more about demand then production


In fact the slow production rate of AECC has plagued the supply chain in past years, not a news, but hopefully AECC has gradually ramped up the production by now. The delay of WS-15 program has compounded the problem, cos some WS-10C are turned to cater for building J-20, wish that could be solved asap.

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## siegecrossbow

ziaulislam said:


> Doubt 15-20 engines are going to be an issue
> Its more about demand then production



You will need more than 15-20. The practice is to keep 1 engine for spare if I am not mistaken.

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## TNT

Battlion25 said:


> Shared on our space.. We know where I am talking about.. Come over there


Once it's shared, its gone. I dont want to put my source in trouble so i cannot share anything without permission. I have few B3 pics that he would still not allow me to share even though some pics are out.

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## The Eagle

TNT said:


> There are other things to worry than perma ban lolz. And no i wont share it now, not untill the source allows it.



Yara a ban from the Forum doesn't matter but you know what I was talking about. Such ban is the least we might do here to contain. It was to convey. Good call though.


alphapak said:


> Man I am not obseesed with the F16's but there are peeople who still think U.S will sell F16's to Pak. Lol



Not the topic here but US didn't decline any request by PAF for F-16. It is something else that the most don't get. Let's get back at the topic please.

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## HRK

36 is the order size (source: Journalist Sumaira Khan)

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## mudas777

ziaulislam said:


> The turkey chopper sale was an indication that all western equipment sane pure european equipment transfer is dead
> 
> Why?
> It has to do with sucessfull lobbying of india
> 
> Dont be surprised that 20 years from now india and china may become neutral and you may get a ban from china as well..!
> 
> Lesson here is self reliance or joint ventures WITH SIMILAR countries like ukrain turkey south africa. If u own part of IP then ban is less likely



Lets enjoy the occasion for the new toy imminent induction if the news is true but?
*There is no substitute for the "Made in Pakistan".* China and India have got huge amount of trade and nothing must be taken for granted. Who knows tables can turn on us, so we need to wise up and self sufficiency is the only way forward. We need to set up a committee who can over see and allocate the funds for the Economy, education and industrialization regardless which politician is in power and with the backing of constitutional based enforceable powers. Who thought after the aftermath of the 9/11and few years afterwards Pakistan/US relations will sink to that low hence we need to bear everything and everyone in our calculus. We are proud of Pak-China friendship but we will end up fighting our own wars hence we must improve our economy.

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## NA71

HRK said:


> 36 is the order size (source: Journalist Sumaira Khan)


Initial Order.... Phase 1

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## Trailer23

HRK said:


> 36 is the order size (source: Journalist Sumaira Khan)


Sir, leave that chachi alone [Khuda kay wastay]


NA71 said:


> Initial Order.... Phase 1


Exactly.

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## serenity

25 J-10CE would be quite an expensive bill. This is immediately around 10% what PLAAF itself has. If they mean 25 all delivered by late March, then this rate of delivery is simply suggesting either delivery has begun ages ago or that CAC will fill the order as PAF is given priority for those production months. Basically a whole year's production of J-10C from CAC.

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## siegecrossbow

serenity said:


> View attachment 804357
> 
> 
> View attachment 804359
> 
> 
> 25 J-10CE would be quite an expensive bill. This is immediately around 10% what PLAAF itself has. If they mean 25 all delivered by late March, then this rate of delivery is simply suggesting either delivery has begun ages ago or that CAC will fill the order as PAF is given priority for those production months. Basically a whole year's production of J-10C from CAC.



It's also possible that Shaik Rasheed Ahmed confused the total order number with the number delivered.

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## HRK

Trailer23 said:


> Sir, leave that chachi alone [Khuda kay wastay]


bhai kya karey ley dey ke ye Chachi hi bachi hai Pakistani Journalists main

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## The Eagle

serenity said:


> View attachment 804357
> 
> 
> View attachment 804359
> 
> 
> 25 J-10CE would be quite an expensive bill. This is immediately around 10% what PLAAF itself has. If they mean 25 all delivered by late March, then this rate of delivery is simply suggesting either delivery has begun ages ago or that CAC will fill the order as PAF is given priority for those production months. Basically a whole year's production of J-10C from CAC.



I don't want to jump on the "I know it all" wagon, trust me as I am the least informed person or never had anything from inside except for FB etc. may be it isn't the fresh order if we go by the words of Pakistani Official. As he said will be performing flying past, mean those 25 or 18 have been already produced and tested at CAC, familiarization is already done & PAF boys will bring them home prior 23rd March, 2022.

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## NA71



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## serenity

Some screenshots and photos for the thread.

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## abdulbarijan

A few pointers to consider:
1. Nothing is confirmed until we see the J-10 in Pakistani colors. We have had rumors regarding the J-10 that go back to the day we used to call it "FC-20" (almost 10 years ago) and it was rumored to be the more capable J-10B.

2. If let's say, the deal is done, will the J-10's come with the Russian engine or the sino engine ? If it does end up coming with the AL-31, what are the political implications for Indo-Russia friendship ?

3. Historically, PAF just doesn't accept Chinese goodies as is. The solutions are tailor made, be it the F-7p/PG or the JFT. What type of modifications will the J-10 incorporate to finally be inducted in the PAF?

4. Finally what type of numbers are we looking at? 2 squadrons i.e. 36-40 or something more?

5. *Lastly, lets appreciate what has happened in the last 20 years. This was an airforce that was numerically disadvantaged, had no BVR capability, had in its fleet aircrafts that go back to the 60's, and in these 20 years it has steadily grown to be a serious serious threat for the enemies. *

6. PS Any word on Chinese HMD/HMS's + PL-10 combo as to how capable it is compared to lets say JHMCS+Aim-9X?

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## The Eagle

serenity said:


> Some screenshots and photos for the thread.
> 
> View attachment 804361
> 
> 
> View attachment 804362
> 
> 
> View attachment 804366
> 
> 
> View attachment 804365
> 
> 
> View attachment 804367
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> 
> View attachment 804368
> 
> 
> View attachment 804369
> 
> 
> View attachment 804370
> 
> 
> View attachment 804371



Green coloured sensor antenna, are our jets  . Not even talking about that particular styled serial number on one of the J-10

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## monitor

Nobody believe this until watching it either bashing Indian Rafale or flying in paf color .😁👍

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## NA71

In very quick time frame We have managed to bring 25 J10s +some 8-10 B3s ASEA Equipped Jets all loaded with PL15s ..... So "game on hy" its not a free walk over.... And inshallah will never be.

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## Imran Khan

abdulbarijan said:


> A few pointers to consider:
> 1. Nothing is confirmed until we see the J-10 in Pakistani colors. We have had rumors regarding the J-10 that go back to the day we used to call it "FC-20" (almost 10 years ago) and it was rumored to be the more capable J-10B.
> 
> 2. If let's say, the deal is done, will the J-10's come with the Russian engine or the sino engine ? If it does end up coming with the AL-31, what are the political implications for Indo-Russia friendship ?
> 
> 3. Historically, PAF just doesn't accept Chinese goodies as is. The solutions are tailor made, be it the F-7p/PG or the JFT. What type of modifications will the J-10 incorporate to finally be inducted in the PAF?
> 
> 4. Finally what type of numbers are we looking at? 2 squadrons i.e. 36-40 or something more?
> 
> 5. *Lastly, lets appreciate what has happened in the last 20 years. This was an airforce that was numerically disadvantaged, had no BVR capability, had in its fleet aircrafts that go back to the 60's, and in these 20 years it has steadily grown to be a serious serious threat for the enemies. *
> 
> 6. PS Any word on Chinese HMD/HMS's + PL-10 combo as to how capable it is compared to lets say JHMCS+Aim-9X?


i hope its slip of tongue

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## jupiter2007

Salza said:


> *First direct and official confirmation of J10C induction by PAF.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> watch after 6.00
> 
> Though the news source was posted by someone in New PAF fighter plane doctrine earlier today but I believe , the news itself deserved a new thread since there still have been an ambiguity about J10C induction into PAF until now.
> 
> Sheikh Rasheed always been a big mouth but nevertheless he is an interior minister of Pakistan right now. No joke!
> special tagging @Zarvan : d



I am surprised that he mentioned 25 J-10C (JS-10). I thought only 8 were going to be inducted in March.


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## Trailer23

serenity said:


> Some screenshots and photos for the thread.
> 
> View attachment 804361
> 
> 
> View attachment 804362
> 
> 
> View attachment 804366
> 
> 
> View attachment 804365
> 
> 
> View attachment 804367
> 
> 
> View attachment 804368
> 
> 
> View attachment 804369
> 
> 
> View attachment 804370
> 
> 
> View attachment 804371


What date was the video uploaded of the first 2-3 screenshots?


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## TNT

Does anyone have any information about the J10C radar and its capabilities? 
Also is the refuelling probe removable on the J10Cs?


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## ziaulislam

We are underestimating india relentless lobbying

Also anyone remember india cheeni bhai bhai


mudas777 said:


> Lets enjoy the occasion for the new toy imminent induction if the news is true but?
> *There is no substitute for the "Made in Pakistan".* China and India have got huge amount of trade and nothing must be taken for granted. Who knows tables can turn on us, so we need to wise up and self sufficiency is the only way forward. We need to set up a committee who can over see and allocate the funds for the Economy, education and industrialization regardless which politician is in power and with the backing of constitutional based enforceable powers. Who thought after the aftermath of the 9/11and few years afterwards Pakistan/US relations will sink to that low hence we need to bear everything and everyone in our calculus. We are proud of Pak-China friendship but we will end up fighting our own wars hence we must improve our economy.

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## NA71

@The Eagle special salute to you for keeping the real news to your chest for so long..... 😁....even deleting posts carrying hints.. By labeling them.... "Post has no value"......

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## The Eagle

abdulbarijan said:


> Nothing is confirmed until we see the J-10 in Pakistani colors.



Interior Minister just said it and that is all we have as of yet. Before, few media outlets said so. I don't expect ISPR to make an announcement. Pakistan Military unlike the rival, is not fond of media presentation to boast and point scoring. You are well informed.



abdulbarijan said:


> If let's say, the deal is done, will the J-10's come with the Russian engine or the sino engine ?


If coming then the answer is Negative.



abdulbarijan said:


> If it does end up coming with the AL-31, what are the political implications for Indo-Russia friendship ?



So, not relevant. Even if it comes with A Russian Engine, read RD-93 for JF-17 that doesn't matter much in Indo-Russia friendship. After all, Bipin Rawat, apparently the last Russian Weapon enthusiast is no more.




abdulbarijan said:


> Historically, PAF just doesn't accept Chinese goodies as is. The solutions are tailor made, be it the F-7p/PG or the JFT.


Yes. True it is.




abdulbarijan said:


> What type of modifications will the J-10 incorporate to finally be inducted in the PAF?



Given the history, not subpar but more of aggressive approach especially in area of software, weapon (couple of) and flight envelope. Remember that PAF has a lot of input into J-10B back then and furthering it with more of expert opinion and findings which eventually resulted for J-10C type Air Craft. Nonetheless, this Dragon might even make one to compare easily with Viper or might lead in some manners. But, I will keep it at par and not just at par but way way better at par due to some advance inputs.




abdulbarijan said:


> 4. Finally what type of numbers are we looking at? 2 squadrons i.e. 36-40 or something more?



For the time being, the theory suggests 36 as initial.




abdulbarijan said:


> PS Any word on Chinese HMD/HMS's + PL-10 combo as to how capable it is compared to lets say JHMCS+Aim-9X?



J-20 Style matting is done so-far, if I can say. The data provided for evaluation in some cases; suggests it to be perfecto and the best. I wouldn't ignore the fact that PAC busy bees have some surprises underneath their sleeves and time to put few onto show. I guess we do have 1+1 friend into this and doing exceptionally well in some areas.

I don't see any such induction being a short term planning or reactionary or some kind of a short cut to address an instant threat. The goal & aim is far bigger and boys are looking at a capable, potent & advanced NGF under AZM. All of things from Block-III and so if, J-10CP will lead to results oriented for AZM program.

Whatever I said above, has no relation with official or any inside information. Just a guess and best of observation in view of development. By the way, by any means, does it ring any bell like the way China inducts advance equipment from Russia despite being able to produce one at home? Does anyone think that Pak-China relations are more stronger and can lead to modern warfare capacity building based upon a different approach to procure half and then advance with homegrown solution.

Teach a man how to catch a fish.

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## NA71

Remember.... 2022 is full of surprises.

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## The Eagle

NA71 said:


> @The Eagle special salute to you for keeping the real news to your chest for so long.....



Thanks but nothing with me.

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## Trailer23

@iLION12345_1 
Penny for your thoughts.

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## NA71

The Eagle said:


> Thanks but nothing with me.


Zindabad..... Unban me in some thread.... Billi theley say Bahar aa gai hy.

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## Windjammer



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## jupiter2007

Now it’s confirmed that Pakistan is getting J-10C and our pilots are training on It for last two years. Also, there is no hope of F-16s coming to Pakistan. I am glad that chapter is now closed.

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## Trailer23

You know, whenever Pakistan has acquired any form of Defense Equipment from the West, India always starts its _rona_ be it F-16's, SAAB's etc.

Jab J-10's ajaey-engay, tou kis kay pass jaey-engay  ?

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## serenity

Trailer23 said:


> What date was the video uploaded of the first 2-3 screenshots?



Sorry I can't remember. Just random screenshots from months ago or last year.


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## iLION12345_1

Trailer23 said:


> @iLION12345_1
> Penny for your thoughts.


Honestly not too many this time around, been pretty busy. Given the state of Pakistani politicians and being a realist (or a cynic to most), I’d wait for the actual parade first (sorry to ruin the mood guys  ).
On a serious note, I have little doubt these birds are coming, along with many other good things, but maybe the timelines will be different than what we expect or hope (as they always are)

Though I moved on to the discussion of what happens _after_ these birds are delivered a while back, because everyone was already talking about their delivery, now since that one’s almost over, the next discussion needs to be on roles, weaponry (A2G especially, because we already know What A2A is happening), how much of it will carry over to JF-17 (and specifically the block 3?), how will the roles of the mirages and the JF-17s change? What’s next for the PAF in terms of fighters? Unlike some others, I still believe PAF would go for F-16s alongside J-10Cs given a (hypothetical) chance in the future. (fighters aside, PAF has a lot of work to do on transport, training and EW platforms). Confirmation and hopefully soon a delivery opens up tons of interesting conversations for the PAF-IAF scenario, that’s what I’m more interested in right now, it’s what @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has been talking about for a while now as well.

PS: IMO the “JS-10” is just Rashid forgetting the actual name, wouldn’t get too excited over it, I also don’t think the PAF is getting a downgraded (or majorly changed/upgraded) J-10, rather just J-10C with minor modifications for PAF.

Another *major* question I have now is the PL-15 and PL-10, will PAF be able to get its hands on the PLAAF models, or still use export versions? It’s more than just a question of capability to me, because it kind of dictates the future for J-10s and to some extent Jf-17s in the PAF, as in, what does this deal mean to China in regards to Tech exports to Pakistan and PAF. Is it an upgrade in that case too? PAF is going to be the first foreign customer of J-10, is there a Pakistan factor involved to that? Or would china have sold it to anyone else too?

On that note, another thing comes to mind, that being how such a purchase effects the JF-17, and by that I don’t mean the “PAF is killing JF and block 3 by buying J-10 because China pressured them” bullshit that some people come up with. Different aircrafts, different sizes, different roles, both are needed.

if the J-10 was indeed a condition for PL-15s to be sold to Pakistan (which I think is BS given an export version exists, unless the people claiming this are talking about non export versions), then this purchase is also a major upgrade for our JF-17s, because any weapon PAF purchases for the J-10 can find it’s way onto the JF, including better A2G stuff and pods. Something like the J-10C is also beneficial in another way, that being the Data links and architectures, it’ll fit in very nicely with the JF-17s and be able to communicate with PAFs newer radars and subsystems better than a western (or Russian) aircraft, so that’s an interesting point to talk about too.

How will the J-10C purchase dictate future PAF purchases in regards to EW, AWACS and radars?

all that and more can be talked about once these aircraft are officially in the PAF, exciting times

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## Raja Porus



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## iLION12345_1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> View attachment 804389


Is them flying in the form of a samosa a coincidence or a message

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## Rafael

Waiting for @kursed to enlighten us more

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## NA71

baber cruise missile attached

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## Jinn Baba

NA71 said:


> View attachment 804394
> baber cruise missile attached



I hope that's the color scheme they go with 😍

Could someone please explain what benefits the J10 brings for the PAF? Could the J10 replace the Mirages?

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## NA71

Jinn Baba said:


> I hope that's the color scheme they go with 😍
> 
> Could someone please explain what benefits the J10 brings for the PAF? Could the J10 replace the Mirages?


I think.... It's real... Just pic of Baber CM is cropped and fitted here. @Trailer23

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## ziaulislam

iLION12345_1 said:


> Honestly not too many this time around, been pretty busy. Given the state of Pakistani politicians and being a realist (or a cynic to most), I’d wait for the actual parade first (sorry to ruin the mood guys  ).
> On a serious note, I have little doubt these birds are coming, along with many other good things, but maybe the timelines will be different than what we expect or hope (as they always are))
> 
> Though I moved on to the discussion of what happens _after_ these birds are delivered a while back, because everyone was already talking about their delivery, now since that one’s almost over, the next discussion needs to be on roles, weaponry (A2G especially, because we already know What A2A is happening), how much of it will carry over to JF-17 (and specifically the block 3?), how will the roles of the mirages and the JF-17s change? What’s next for the PAF in terms of fighters? Unlike some others, I still believe PAF would go for F-16s alongside J-10Cs given a (hypothetical) chance in the future. (fighters aside, PAF has a lot of work to do on transport, training and EW platforms). Confirmation and hopefully soon a delivery opens up tons of interesting conversations for the PAF-IAF scenario, that’s what I’m more interested in right now, it’s what @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has been talking about for a while now as well.
> 
> PS: IMO the “JS-10” is just Rashid forgetting the actual name, wouldn’t get too excited over it, I also don’t think the PAF is getting a downgraded (or majorly changed/upgraded) J-10, rather just J-10C with minor modifications for PAF.
> 
> Another *major* question I have now is the PL-15 and PL-10, will PAF be able to get its hands on the PLAAF models, or still use export versions? It’s more than just a question of capability to me, because it kind of dictates the future for J-10s and to some extent Jf-17s in the PAF, as in, what does this deal mean to China in regards to Tech exports to Pakistan and PAF. Is it an upgrade in that case too? PAF is going to be the first foreign customer of J-10, is there a Pakistan factor involved to that? Or would china have sold it to anyone else too?
> 
> On that note, another thing comes to mind, that being how such a purchase effects the JF-17, and by that I don’t mean the “PAF is killing JF and block 3 by buying J-10 because China pressured them” bullshit that some people come up with. Different aircrafts, different sizes, different roles, both are needed.
> 
> if the J-10 was indeed a condition for PL-15s to be sold to Pakistan (which I think is BS given an export version exists, unless the people claiming this are talking about non export versions), then this purchase is also a major upgrade for our JF-17s, because any weapon PAF purchases for the J-10 can find it’s way onto the JF, including better A2G stuff and pods. Something like the J-10C is also beneficial in another way, that being the Data links and architectures, it’ll fit in very nicely with the JF-17s and be able to communicate with PAFs newer radars and subsystems better than a western (or Russian) aircraft, so that’s an interesting point to talk about too.
> 
> How will the J-10C purchase dictate future PAF purchases in regards to EW, AWACS and radars?
> 
> all that and more can be talked about once these aircraft are officially in the PAF, exciting times


188 jf17s inductes is already above the planned 150
The number will probabaly go up to 250+ around 75 j10s +75 f16
With new gen fighter replacing the f16s in 2040
Some the f16 will need life extention in 2030 that we will not get so apart from the f16c/d most will wear out by 2035

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## Deltadart

Salza said:


> *First direct and official confirmation of J10C induction by PAF.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> watch after 6.00
> 
> Though the news source was posted by someone in New PAF fighter plane doctrine earlier today but I believe , the news itself deserved a new thread since there still have been an ambiguity about J10C induction into PAF until now.
> 
> Sheikh Rasheed always been a big mouth but nevertheless he is an interior minister of Pakistan right now. No joke!
> special tagging @Zarvan : d


Interior minister discussing matters that are absolutely none of his business. But then


Salza said:


> *First direct and official confirmation of J10C induction by PAF.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> watch after 6.00
> 
> Though the news source was posted by someone in New PAF fighter plane doctrine earlier today but I believe , the news itself deserved a new thread since there still have been an ambiguity about J10C induction into PAF until now.
> 
> Sheikh Rasheed always been a big mouth but nevertheless he is an interior minister of Pakistan right now. No joke!
> special tagging @Zarvan : d


If it is true then all I want to say is:
*خوش آمديد *
په خیر راغلې
ڀلي ڪري آيا
دُرٛہبات

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## syed_yusuf

I wish Mr Rasheed could have kept his mouth close on this but then again he must have been told to break the news. 

Last I know paf requested 36 plus option for 18 to a total of 54. Later number were increased to 64 to incorporate some more examples for ccs. 

Currently there is a firm order of 36. 

For the 2nd time in PAF history PAF will operate better fighter than American FGA in PAF history. 

In late 60s mirage3 was a top gun in PAF better than F86 and F104. Now J10p, better than ROSE and Falcon over all.

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## Jinn Baba

Deltadart said:


> Interior minister discussing matters that are absolutely none of his business.



Welcome to Pakistan. 

Wait till you find out that the business community here meets the COAS in relation to economic matters, and foreign delegations meet the country's opposition leaders in relation to foreign policy

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

iLION12345_1 said:


> Honestly not too many this time around, been pretty busy. Given the state of Pakistani politicians and being a realist (or a cynic to most), I’d wait for the actual parade first (sorry to ruin the mood guys  ).
> On a serious note, I have little doubt these birds are coming, along with many other good things, but maybe the timelines will be different than what we expect or hope (as they always are))
> 
> Though I moved on to the discussion of what happens _after_ these birds are delivered a while back, because everyone was already talking about their delivery, now since that one’s almost over, the next discussion needs to be on roles, weaponry (A2G especially, because we already know What A2A is happening), how much of it will carry over to JF-17 (and specifically the block 3?), how will the roles of the mirages and the JF-17s change? What’s next for the PAF in terms of fighters? Unlike some others, I still believe PAF would go for F-16s alongside J-10Cs given a (hypothetical) chance in the future. (fighters aside, PAF has a lot of work to do on transport, training and EW platforms). Confirmation and hopefully soon a delivery opens up tons of interesting conversations for the PAF-IAF scenario, that’s what I’m more interested in right now, it’s what @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has been talking about for a while now as well.
> 
> PS: IMO the “JS-10” is just Rashid forgetting the actual name, wouldn’t get too excited over it, I also don’t think the PAF is getting a downgraded (or majorly changed/upgraded) J-10, rather just J-10C with minor modifications for PAF.
> 
> Another *major* question I have now is the PL-15 and PL-10, will PAF be able to get its hands on the PLAAF models, or still use export versions? It’s more than just a question of capability to me, because it kind of dictates the future for J-10s and to some extent Jf-17s in the PAF, as in, what does this deal mean to China in regards to Tech exports to Pakistan and PAF. Is it an upgrade in that case too? PAF is going to be the first foreign customer of J-10, is there a Pakistan factor involved to that? Or would china have sold it to anyone else too?
> 
> On that note, another thing comes to mind, that being how such a purchase effects the JF-17, and by that I don’t mean the “PAF is killing JF and block 3 by buying J-10 because China pressured them” bullshit that some people come up with. Different aircrafts, different sizes, different roles, both are needed.
> 
> if the J-10 was indeed a condition for PL-15s to be sold to Pakistan (which I think is BS given an export version exists, unless the people claiming this are talking about non export versions), then this purchase is also a major upgrade for our JF-17s, because any weapon PAF purchases for the J-10 can find it’s way onto the JF, including better A2G stuff and pods. Something like the J-10C is also beneficial in another way, that being the Data links and architectures, it’ll fit in very nicely with the JF-17s and be able to communicate with PAFs newer radars and subsystems better than a western (or Russian) aircraft, so that’s an interesting point to talk about too.
> 
> How will the J-10C purchase dictate future PAF purchases in regards to EW, AWACS and radars?
> 
> all that and more can be talked about once these aircraft are officially in the PAF, exciting times


I remember @Bilal Khan (Quwa) once said that if PAF bought J10C in large numbers, then there can also be a possibility of CATIC cooperation with us in our project Azm.
But @JamD 's inside info is that PAF does not want Chinese involvement in Azm project.

What is your take on J10C's purchase and its possible influence on Azm project??

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## IceCold

serenity said:


> Some screenshots and photos for the thread.
> 
> View attachment 804361
> 
> 
> View attachment 804362
> 
> 
> View attachment 804366
> 
> 
> View attachment 804365
> 
> 
> View attachment 804367
> 
> 
> View attachment 804368
> 
> 
> View attachment 804369
> 
> 
> View attachment 804370
> 
> 
> View attachment 804371


The ones without Chinese markings are ours?

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## Battlion25

IceCold said:


> The ones without Chinese markings are ours?



No. It was just a visible presentation of J10s for the readers

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## IceCold

Battlion25 said:


> No. It was just a visible presentation of J10s for the readers


😭

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## truthseeker2010

Trailer23 said:


> Jab J-10's ajaey-engay, tou kis kay pass jaey-engay  ?



Off course to the dragon.......


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## aziqbal

*Congratulations to all this is indeed a very big news and amazing !*

*now all we need is the end of year celebration with delivery of 12 x JF17 Block III in PAC*

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## Riz

The Eagle said:


> Any breach of security might lead to perma ban. If you have anything for your own information; do not violate the trust of source then. Any pic/detail might be shared if the Source allows and agrees to do so on purpose permitted officially, without harming Op-Sec/Military Info.
> 
> Regards,


Hath hola rakho uncle

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## imadul

Trailer23 said:


> I think by now its pretty apparent that the J-10's are coming - even the doubters have gotten hints by now.
> 
> The only thing now left to ponder is:
> 
> - How many?
> - Cost?
> - Delivery/Induction?
> - And Flypast (which isn't relevant)


The news was going round for some time...
This is reported in july by defenseworld.com

That also means JF-17 Block 3 lags is some aspects. It is not getting RD-93MA which shall give JF-17 Block 3 more TWI, combat range, and increased payload.

Once RD-93MA is ready, JF-17 with some redesigning of airframe would be a much respected 4.5 gen fighter.









China Could Hand Over 36 J-10C Jets to Pakistan in 2021


Pakistan will reportedly receive 36 Chengdu J-10C multirole fighters from China by the end of this year. On Monday, House for Strategic & International Affairs (HSIA) posted on Twitter, “Pakistan is set to receive 36 J-10C semi-stealth, 4.5 gen advanced fighter Jets from China by the end of...




www.defenseworld.net





*China Could Hand Over 36 J-10C Jets to Pakistan in 2021*
MoD
Pakistan will reportedly receive 36 Chengdu J-10C multirole fighters from China by the end of this year.
On Monday, House for Strategic & International Affairs (HSIA) posted on Twitter, _“Pakistan is set to receive 36 J-10C semi-stealth, 4.5 gen advanced fighter Jets from China by the end of 2021.”_
The information has not been confirmed by the defense ministries of China or Pakistan.
As per 2020 reports, high-level government officials from Islamabad were in Talks with China over the procurement of PL-10 and PL-15 missiles, as well as J-10 jets that are often compared with the American F-16s.
*During Shaheen-9 joint air exercises held in January 2021 which saw participation of these two countries, China’s J-10C and J-11B fighters simulated India's Rafale and Su-30 jets respectively in mock battles.* Air Forces from both sides focused on_ “large scale confrontation, including large scale aerial battles and use of forces in mass and close-quarters aerial support.”_ More than 200 sorties were conducted by both sides, to boost combat capabilities in learning from each other.

Beijing has been trying to hardsell its J-10C and J-11B fighters to Pakistan whose air force has shown preference for the latest version of the F-16 jets. A Chinese expert told state media after Shaheen-9 that *many aspects of the J-10C mid-sized fighter jet, including the size, aerodynamic characteristics, aviation, weapon systems and overall combat capability are comparable to the Indian Air Force (IAF)’s Rafale*.

Powered by a Russian engine (Lyulka Saturn AL-31FN) giving it a maximum static thrust of approximately 123 kN, the single-engine tail-less canard delta wing J-10C features fly-by-wire flight controls and sports an AESA fire control radar. It is made of composite materials for high strength and lower weight. China has developed a brand new engine, WS-10, to replace the Russian ones.
The aircraft's internal armament consists of a Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23 twin-barrel cannon, located underneath the port side of the intake. Other weaponry and equipment is mounted externally on 11 hardpoints, to which 6,000 kg of either missiles and bombs, drop-tanks containing fuel, or other equipment such as avionics pods can be attached.

Air-to-air missiles deployed may include short-range air-to-air missiles such as the PL-8 and PL-10, medium-range radar-guided air-to-air missiles such as the PL-12 and PL-15, unguided and precision guided munitions such as laser-guided bombs, air-to-surface missile such as KD-88, anti-ship missiles such as the YJ-91A and anti-radiation missiles such as the YJ-91.

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## baqai

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> On 23rd March, *The Resolution of Pakistan Day*, the order of Flypast has to be:
> 
> *ACM leading in Thunder Bravo*
> 
> Followed by a formation of* Thunder Blk3*
> 
> Followed by F-Sola.
> 
> We must make a Resolution for PAF too.... become completely self-sufficient in every aspect of AeroSpaceWarfare.
> 
> *Quaid e Azam R.A has ordered us to be Second to None!
> 
> Time has arrived to honour OurFather's command!!!*
> 
> EmergingPakistan
> 
> Mangus



don't think chief will come in bravo ... they will keep coming EFFFFFF SOLLA !!!! but i do share your dream of having Chief leading with Bravo

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## truthseeker2010

The Eagle said:


> Interior Minister just said it and that is all we have as of yet. Before, few media outlets said so. I don't expect ISPR to make an announcement. Pakistan Military unlike the rival, is not fond of media presentation to boast and point scoring. You are well informed.
> 
> 
> If coming then the answer is Negative.
> 
> 
> 
> So, not relevant. Even if it comes with A Russian Engine, read RD-93 for JF-17 that doesn't matter much in Indo-Russia friendship. After all, Bipin Rawat, apparently the last Russian Weapon enthusiast is no more.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. True it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Given the history, not subpar but more of aggressive approach especially in area of software, weapon (couple of) and flight envelope. Remember that PAF has a lot of input into J-10B back then and furthering it with more of expert opinion and findings which eventually resulted for J-10C type Air Craft. Nonetheless, this Dragon might even make one to compare easily with Viper or might lead in some manners. But, I will keep it at par and not just at par but way way better at par due to some advance inputs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the time being, the theory suggests 36 as initial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-20 Style matting is done so-far, if I can say. The data provided for evaluation in some cases; suggests it to be perfecto and the best. I wouldn't ignore the fact that PAC busy bees have some surprises underneath their sleeves and time to put few onto show. I guess we do have 1+1 friend into this and doing exceptionally well in some areas.
> 
> I don't see any such induction being a short term planning or reactionary or some kind of a short cut to address an instant threat. The goal & aim is far bigger and boys are looking at a capable, potent & advanced NGF under AZM. All of things from Block-III and so if, J-10CP will lead to results oriented for AZM program.
> 
> Whatever I said above, has no relation with official or any inside information. Just a guess and best of observation in view of development. By the way, by any means, does it ring any bell like the way China inducts advance equipment from Russia despite being able to produce one at home? Does anyone think that Pak-China relations are more stronger and can lead to modern warfare capacity building based upon a different approach to procure half and then advance with homegrown solution.
> 
> Teach a man how to catch a fish.



There is more than what meets the eye, remember we had a talk regarding a new jet for PAF on another thread, when it first arrived on a PAF base for testing in dead of night (lets spill the beans since it has becoming obvious). You told me to not to stretch it until made official. 

I am again saying J-10 was not the only thing that came back than and PAF won't make public (not directly or indirectly) than what is required to keep its eastern neighbor on toes.

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## Deino

Windjammer said:


> Don't want to jump to any conclusions but J-10 may not be the only thing happening.
> 
> View attachment 804342



Please give us a hint .

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## alee92nawaz

truthseeker2010 said:


> There is more than what meets the eye, remember we had a talk regarding a new jet for PAF on another thread, when it first arrived on a PAF base for testing in dead of night (lets spill the beans since it has becoming obvious). You told me to not to stretch it until made official.
> 
> I am again saying J-10 was not the only thing that came back than and PAF won't make public (not directly or indirectly) than what is required to keep its eastern neighbor on toes.


J-11B was pitched to PAF as well. I think PAF is happy with the capability of J-10C's engine and it's bvr. Especially after the news that PLAAF has removed flankers from Taiwan zone and have places J-10s


Deino said:


> Please give us a hint .


J-11 or a similar flanker.


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## Riz

serenity said:


> View attachment 804357
> 
> 
> View attachment 804359
> 
> 
> 25 J-10CE would be quite an expensive bill. This is immediately around 10% what PLAAF itself has. If they mean 25 all delivered by late March, then this rate of delivery is simply suggesting either delivery has begun ages ago or that CAC will fill the order as PAF is given priority for those production months. Basically a whole year's production of J-10C from CAC.


They produced long ago, and we kept them there for pilots training purpose , now our pilots will bring back those back home

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## Jinn Baba

alee92nawaz said:


> J-11 or a similar flanker.




Impossible!

More likely (if indeed something else) force multipliers like airborne surveillance or tankers

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## alee92nawaz

Jinn Baba said:


> Impossible!
> 
> More likely (if indeed something else) force multipliers like airborne surveillance or tankers


Sir we have enough of surveillance gadgets and probably turkish barkat something drone will be procured.

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## Ali_Baba

syed_yusuf said:


> I wish Mr Rasheed could have kept his mouth close on this but then again he must have been told to break the news.
> 
> Last I know paf requested 36 plus option for 18 to a total of 54. Later number were increased to 64 to incorporate some more examples for ccs.
> 
> Currently there is a firm order of 36.
> 
> For the 2nd time in PAF history PAF will operate better fighter than American FGA in PAF history.
> 
> In late 60s mirage3 was a top gun in PAF better than F86 and F104. Now J10p, better than ROSE and Falcon over all.



This very much feels like the beginning of the end of PAF and USAF Fighter engagement when the last PAF F16 is retired - we will see the end of American fighters being fielded in the PAF as they will all be Chinese at that point. I am at this point discounting TFX(though Turkey may request restrictions if they get that one flying/operational and PAF buys into it.) as the engine is a massive unknown right now.

The Americans/USAF have pretty much forshadowed this with the recent exercises where PAF role(or USAF ) was as observers or ground based training and not air-to-air training.

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## Pappa Alpha

Ali_Baba said:


> This very much feels like the beginning of the end of PAF and USAF Fighter engagement when the last PAF F16 is retired - we will see the end of American fighters being fielded in the PAF as they will all be Chinese at that point. I am at this point discounting TFX(though Turkey may request restrictions if they get that one flying/operational and PAF buys into it.).
> 
> The Americans/USAF have pretty much forshadowed this with the recent exercises where PAF role(or USAF ) was as observers or ground based training and not air-to-air.


good, no more diplomacy based on F-16s.

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## Goenitz

@MastanKhan 
Do you liek this development Sir?

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## monitor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476206464691851269
Official word for which Pakistani people egarly waited for years.

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## Deino

alee92nawaz said:


> J-11B was pitched to PAF as well. I think PAF is happy with the capability of J-10C's engine and it's bvr. Especially after the news that PLAAF has removed flankers from Taiwan zone and have places J-10s
> 
> J-11 or a similar flanker.



Again IMO close to impossible. More likely would be another Y-9 EW-Type, Y-20 transports or helicopters, but no Flankers.

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## jamal18

Trailer23 said:


> You mean the very ones who claimed that PAF rejected the J-10...



Yes. I am not trolling.

Just want to know where the mistakes in their assumptions were. We all, every single one of us, makes mistakes. No big deal.


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## alikazmi007

@Windjammer any thoughts on this breaking news? I've a hard time believing our incompetent politicians sometimes. I'd like to believe him but with Christine Fair's "Confirmation Bias" throbbing in my mind ....


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## waz

Folks no need for any pinch of salt or confirmation. Myself @Signalian @The Eagle have been moderating posts of an extremely sensitive nature, the news was confirmed quite a while back and they will be here in numbers in March.
Congrats to all.

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## Jinn Baba

Goenitz said:


> @MastanKhan
> Do you liek this development Sir?



Hi, 

You kids don't understand anything and need to be spoon fed everything (although I never explain anything let alone spoon feed).

If PAF had just nuked India in 2019, we wouldn't have needed J10s today! Do you not understand - I'm a permenantely glass half empty kind of guy - people invite me to parties only when they want everyone to go back home

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## Deino

Jinn Baba said:


> Hi,
> 
> You kids don't understand anything and need to be spoon fed everything (although I never explain anything let alone spoon feed).
> 
> If PAF had just nuked India in 2019, we wouldn't have needed J10s today! Do you not understand - I'm a permenantely glass half empty kind of guy - people invite me to parties only when they want everyone to go back home



Thanks for that post

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## Goenitz

Jinn Baba said:


> Hi,
> 
> You kids don't understand anything and need to be spoon fed everything (although I never explain anything let alone spoon feed).
> 
> If PAF had just nuked India in 2019, we wouldn't have needed J10s today! Do you not understand - I'm a permenantely glass half empty kind of guy - people invite me to parties only when they want everyone to go back home


I just needed his comments as he was advocating since ages to buy J7s for medium range bombing role. So, this must be a good omen for him.

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## Rafi

♤♤Buddy of mine¤¤..........nuff said.

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## salarsikander

What will be the origin of the powerplant ? 

I am more interested in that

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## Tank131

Rafi said:


> ♤♤Buddy of mine¤¤..........nuff said.


Man, your one liners, they are heroine sample from the dealer, always making us fiend for more than the little taste of info you give.

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## SIPRA

Strange, that this news is released by Interior Minister "Sheeda Tully", instead of that good-for-nothing and useless so-called Defence Minister Pervez Khattak.

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## El Sidd

Goenitz said:


> I just needed his comments as he was advocating since ages to buy J7s for medium range bombing role. So, this must be a good omen for him.


But the minister mentions Rafael strictly for air to air operations of the new recruit almost 2 decades in the making.


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## Trango Towers

Raider 21 said:


> Bullshit about 3-4 years ago
> 
> Negative. The rationale is behind funding. The aircraft is expensive.


Well you are not paying for it so don't worry about it. Most Pakistani don't pay taxes and those that pay pay very little so let it be


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## SIPRA

Indian posters are, by and large, absent from this thread.

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## Pappa Alpha

And thus the verbal bashing of J10C by French and Indians has entered a new era

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## Trango Towers

NA71 said:


> It was all started back in 2017....Pilots conversion training etc has already be completed much earlier ...the entire package is coming with yet another Surprise IA.
> 
> Shaikh Sb also said "barey barey loag aa rahey hein" ....may be he was referring to Chinese President's presence and the said flypast is arranged for him.


23rd March should not be changed for anyone....regardless.


Ghessan said:


> i don't care if 25 deliver or 5 by march
> 
> it would be a sight to behold if a PAF Pilot fly solo with some tight maneuvers depicting skills on this new plane in our inventory.


I hope the PAF cheif comes in jf17 block 3....at the head of the formation and not an f16.

Be proud of what you make and it will send a message of where jf17 is to the whole world especially our constipated southern neighbour

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## m52k85

HRK said:


> bhai shaib he himself is a source .... I think you should recall his work
> 
> @TNT if you have no issue could you send me PM .... ??


Can you point us to his work?




The Eagle said:


> Green coloured sensor antenna, are our jets  . Not even talking about that particular styled serial number on one of the J-10


Is the engine Chinese or Russian? @Deino your expertise needed here pls.


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## Deltadart

Raider 21 said:


> Bullshit about 3-4 years ago
> 
> Negative. The rationale is behind funding. The aircraft is expensive.


I think when bhaRAT tried to challenge China on its wobbly legs, they got full unflinched Chinese attention like never before. As a result the Chinese strategic calculation changed dramatically vis-a-vis Bharat. Therefore, providing Pakistan with the choice weapons to defend itself and give indians something to think about before they go on their vedic conquest of the world domination. India tied down by Pakistan can not achieve this nefarious goal. While China is freed to fully focus on south china sea, and not worry so much about India back stabbing them.

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## Ali_Baba

The order of the flypast should be goverened by capability - and right now the J10C(P?) and JF17 Block III outclass the F16.

Order should be :
J10C(P)
JF17 Block III
F16s
JF17 Block I/II's
Mirages
F7s

The F16 will become a mid-tier platform from the spear it once was after the the J10C(P?) and JF17 Block III are inducted.

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## waz

SIPRA said:


> Indian posters are, by and large, absent from this thread.










Made in China stuff man won't work. 
Rafale made by white man much superior.

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## ziaulislam

waz said:


> View attachment 804419
> 
> 
> Made in China stuff man won't work.
> Rafale made by white man much superior.


Rafale is suppose to be superior to j20
Which are in 100s

By that defination j10 is like a propellar aircraft too insignifcant to be counted

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## KaiserX

It was well known to most analyst that the PAF will receive the J10C by the end of this year or early 2022.

36 is a decent sized initial order. If the PAF receives 25 J10+ 20 JF17B3 in 2022 that would be a huge boost in capabilities putting the PAF over the top of the IAF when it comes to AESA radars/per fighter.

Another fact that many veterans overlook is that 90-100% of these new fighters the PAF is getting will be placed against the IAF. PAF has 0 threats on its western border. We have ROSE Mirages/JF17A able to perform ground strikes on the western theatre if need arises. At most we need only 5-10% jets stationed need the western command. F16 C/D, JF17 B/B2/B3, J10CP will mostly all be geared towards the IAF.

This is in stark contrast to the IAF which will increasingly now have to allocated 50-50/60-40 to the Pak-China theatres

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## HRK

m52k85 said:


> Can you point us to his work?


He is photographer and one of pic of JF-17 with REK (or Turkish Targeting pod) was his work. I think he has shahre some of his clicks at plane spotter as well 


@TNT

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## SIPRA

waz said:


> View attachment 804419
> 
> 
> Made in China stuff man won't work.
> Rafale made by white man much superior.



Yes, but they are not coming on this thread to prove the superiority of Rafale over J10. That is strange. Or may be, a lot of them have been banned.


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## siegecrossbow

SIPRA said:


> Yes, but they are not coming on this thread to prove the superiority of Rafale over J10. That is strange. Or may be, a lot of them have been banned.



A lot of them quit the forum after my profile photo was released in October.

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## GiG

JS-10 S is for stealth?

Anyway that's how J-10 looked like 2 years ago on 23 March in Pakistan

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## Trango Towers

Ali_Baba said:


> The order of the flypast should be goverened by capability - and right now the J10C(P?) and JF17 Block III outclass the F16.
> 
> Order should be :
> J10C(P)
> JF17 Block III
> F16s
> JF17 Block I/II's
> Mirages
> F7s
> 
> The F16 will become a mid-tier platform from the spear it once was after the the J10C(P?) and JF17 Block III are inducted.


No.

At the head should be jf17 block 3 ..
. That's our

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*Pakistan Day flypast on March 23, 2022.



*

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## Trango Towers

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Pakistan Day flypast on March 23, 2022.
> View attachment 804422
> *


It kind of looks like an f16

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## siegecrossbow

GiG said:


> JS-10 S is for stealth?
> 
> Anyway that's how J-10 looked like 2 years ago on 23 March in Pakistan



Hate to pop your bubble but stealth needs to be designed from the ground up. According to the J-20 designer even something as small as a rivet has to be taken into account. Does the J-10P have reduced RCS? Definitely. Is it stealth? No.

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## GiG

siegecrossbow said:


> Hate to pop your bubble but stealth needs to be designed from the ground up. According to the J-20 designer even something as small as a rivet has to be taken into account. Does the J-10P have reduced RCS? Definitely. Is it stealth? No.


it was a joke 🙃

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## araz

jamal18 said:


> I haven't got a dog in the fight, and I'm not throwing mud in anyones face, but where are the guys who said you'll never see the J-10 in Pakistani colours?


I am one of the nay sayers. We all said it did not make sense to us as to why PAF needed another 4.5generation platform in the presence of block 3 which has not (officially) been inducted. We could not work out the need for such a platform especially in our resource constained environment. None of us would be unhappy to be proven wrong and as long as PAF has chosen the J10 due to its capabilities we would be very happy for PAF and Pakistan. Disagreement was based on logic rather than any grudge against the platform . 
However, since the picture of Haseeb Paracha in Chinese platform emerged 2-3 years ago, Sir Bilalkhan 777 said he saw both J10 and J11/16 in PAF. This to me was the earliest confirmation as far as Iam concerned although other posters have since pointed to arrival in first quarter of 22.
A

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Trango Towers said:


> It kind of looks like an f16


Yep, but with a powerful AESA radar, powerful engine, more hardpoints, more weapon varieties and better avionics.

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## Ali_Baba

Additionally - does this mean that the new J10C's have pure chinese ejection seats and not the Martin Baker ones? No new contract was announced for 35(36) units etc.

I wonder if the initial order includes any 2-seaters?


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## siegecrossbow

Ali_Baba said:


> Additionally - does this mean that the new J10C's have pure chinese ejection seats and not the Martin Baker ones? No new contract was announced for 35(36) units etc.
> 
> I wonder if the initial order includes any 2-seaters?



If there are it would be J-10S, which is based on the J-10A. I’m not aware of any upgrades two seaters. However, there is a possibility that the J-10D might be a twin seater EW bird based on the J-10C. That’s just a rumor right now so don’t take my word for it.

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## KaiserX

siegecrossbow said:


> Hate to pop your bubble but stealth needs to be designed from the ground up. According to the J-20 designer even something as small as a rivet has to be taken into account. Does the J-10P have reduced RCS? Definitely. Is it stealth? No.



I think the question is if the J10CP is more stealthy than the J10A then the answer is yes, it is more stealthy via reduced RCS meaning it will take longer to show up on enemy radar also meaning the chances of it seeing the enemy first increases.

Overall with the J10CP procurement this confirms the PAF sees the utility of a Medium weight 4.5 generation combat aircraft going into the long term. Post-2022 PAF seems to be geared towards full focus on the JF17b3, J10cp, and AZM program. Everything will be about combat integration with the PLAAF with common weapon systems/platforms.

Furthermore I have seen some Chinese members here claim that China is relunctant to share 5th generation tech with Pakistan. Dont forget China is the country which shared the most valuable weapon tech in history (Nuclear) with Pakistan  5th generation fighter tech is prob at 20% of the industrial/knowledge scale of nuclear tech... Pakistan- China do not share close language or cultrual/religious ties as US/UK or US/Israel do where a similar level of cooperation have occurred which means whatever is shared is at the highest level of government/military.

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## araz

The Eagle said:


> Any breach of security might lead to perma ban. If you have anything for your own information; do not violate the trust of source then. Any pic/detail might be shared if the Source allows and agrees to do so on purpose permitted officially, without harming Op-Sec/Military Info.
> 
> Regards,


Without going into the nitty gritty of it, with due respect I would disagree with you on this. I fully agree that the source needs to agree to share the photos on open forum. However the cat is out of the bag and it has been confirmed by Sheeda telli who is a Pindi boy anx close to establishment.
However, it is not my place to disregard forum rules and your enforcing them.
Kind regards
A

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## siegecrossbow

KaiserX said:


> I think the question is if the J10CP is more stealthy than the J10A then the answer is yes, it is more stealthy via reduced RCS meaning it will take longer to show up on enemy radar also meaning the chances of it seeing the enemy first increases.



It is obviously stealthier than the J-10A due to the use of DSI, gold plated canopy, and “blockers” in front of the roots of the canards. Also rumor of RAM coating at various areas of the aircraft.

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## araz

IceCold said:


> I get that but I was asking on the lines since PAF has participated with and against the likes of F-22. Considering the relationship between the two sides I was curious to know if we ever participated against the J-20 or in conjunction against mutual threats.


Yes we have.
A

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## Polestar 2

araz said:


> I am one of the nay sayers. We all said it did not make sense to us as to why PAF needed another 4.5generation platform in the presence of block 3 which has not (officially) been inducted. We could not work out the need for such a platform especially in our resource constained environment. None of us would be unhappy to be proven wrong and as long as PAF has chosen the J10 due to its capabilities we would be very happy for PAF and Pakistan. Disagreement was based on logic rather than any grudge against the platform .
> However, since the picture of Haseeb Paracha in Chinese platform emerged 2-3 years ago, Sir Bilalkhan 777 said he saw both J10 and J11/16 in PAF. This to me was the earliest confirmation as far as Iam concerned although other posters have since pointed to arrival in first quarter of 22.
> A


Then you need to ask yourself this question why China never inducted the JF-17 if its capabilities are matching to J-10 or near on par.

Not to mention ,JF-17 and J-10 are both design by China. There is no better authority than China to gauge which is better and the very reason why PLAAF induct J-10 only.


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## GriffinsRule

Trailer23 said:


> You mean the very ones who claimed that PAF rejected the J-10...


Somehow this news is not very exciting to me. I was hoping we would not see this jet in PAF colors ever as it's procurement bellies other serious issues (failures) in Pakistan. Either way, the one upside is pilots won't be flying 1960 era old jets


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## Ali_Baba

siegecrossbow said:


> If there are it would be J-10S, which is based on the J-10A. I’m not aware of any upgrades two seaters. However, there is a possibility that the J-10D might be a twin seater EW bird based on the J-10C. That’s just a rumor right now so don’t take my word for it.



It would make sense to have a J10S which is based on the structural enhancements of the J10C called J10D ...

Maybe the slip of the tongue by Rasheed was he was meant to to say J-10S and not JS-10  .. and that they are all 2 seaters designed to replace the Mirages in the strike role - lol !!! ( wild speculation i know - but PAF has not been very clear about any of this).

What we could have now is an integrated wall of defence that combines the HQ-9P, HQ-16s, JF17 Block IIIs and J10Cs all operating in an integrated fashion over Kashmir. A Very toxic combination for the IAF ..

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## Trango Towers

Polestar 2 said:


> Then you need to ask yourself this question why China never inducted the JF-17 if its capabilities are matching to J-10 or near on par.
> 
> Not to mention ,JF-17 and J-10 are both design by China. There is no better authority than China to gauge which is better and the very reason why PLAAF induct J-10 only.


Simple it's a light Wright fighter and look at what China's requirements are and their enemies.


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## TNT

HRK said:


> He is photographer and one of pic of JF-17 with REK (or Turkish Targeting pod) was his work. I think he has shahre some of his clicks at plane spotter as well
> 
> 
> @TNT



Maybe u are misunderstanding me for someone else. I am not a photographer, i have shaky hands and my phone pics are blurry too 😂.

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## Skywalker

Surya 1 said:


> Ohhhh Is it? Best of luck for that. We will know it in 3 months.


burnol bhaijoon.

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## KaiserX

Polestar 2 said:


> Then you need to ask yourself this question why China never inducted the JF-17 if its capabilities are matching to J-10 or near on par.
> 
> Not to mention ,JF-17 and J-10 are both design by China. There is no better authority than China to gauge which is better and the very reason why PLAAF induct J-10 only.



Different strategies and concepts. The PAF decided to go with network centric warfare early on operating an advanced and proper C4I system since the early 2000s. This entails the usage of light aircraft linked with one another backed by AWACs. Similar to the strategy Sweden/Finland follow but at a much larger scale. This is the reason the PAF has always emphasized link-17 capabilities in the JF17 along the lines of the link-16 in the F16/Gripen.

The PLAAF has to assert dominance in the pacific and needs a long range fighter. In a localized conflict where the PAF is able to assert AWAC/Local ground radar coverage the JF17 neglects any aircrafts longer radar range. One of the reasons why the PAF has almost 1 AWAC aircraft per 35-40 fighter jets. Much higher than the IAF/PLAAF.

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## truthseeker2010

alee92nawaz said:


> J-11B was pitched to PAF as well. I think PAF is happy with the capability of J-10C's engine and it's bvr. Especially after the news that PLAAF has removed flankers from Taiwan zone and have places J-10s
> 
> J-11 or a similar flanker.



At most i would say its not J-11.

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## Polestar 2

KaiserX said:


> Different strategies and concepts. The PAF decided to go with network centric warfare early on operating an advanced and proper C4I system since the early 2000s. This entails the usage of light aircraft linked with one another backed by AWACs. Similar to the strategy Sweden/Finland follow but at a much larger scale. This is the reason the PAF has always emphasized link-17 capabilities in the JF17 along the lines of the link-16 in the F16/Gripen.
> 
> The PLAAF has to assert dominance in the pacific and needs a long range fighter. In a localized conflict where the PAF is able to assert AWAC/Local ground radar coverage the JF17 neglects any aircrafts longer radar range.


J-10 is not a long range fighter. What u mention about JF-17 is also what J-10 possess of network.


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## War Historian

Trango Towers said:


> 23rd March should not be changed for anyone....regardless.
> 
> I hope the PAF cheif comes in jf17 block 3....at the head of the formation and not an f16.
> 
> Be proud of what you make and it will send a message of where jf17 is to the whole world especially our constipated southern neighbour


Sir in south we have only Arabian sea.

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## Imran Khan

JF-17 today evening

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## KaiserX

Polestar 2 said:


> J-10 is not a long range fighter. What u mention about JF-17 is also what J-10 possess of network.



Exactly the J10 will be easily able to integrate into the PAF current strategy concept in a way the J11 would not. Some of the reasons PAF chose to invest fully in the JF17 rather than the J10 early one was

- Engine access was reliable via russian gaurantees
- Access to western components at that time which would more easily integrate into the JF17
- Cheaper/lighter fighters which could be produced at a mass scale
- Better servicability at that time compared to the J10A which had many issues which have been addressed
- Access to key technologies early on. Dont forget not long after the JF17 the PAF was early the test babur/RAAD/burraq/ other weapons shortly after. JF17 TOT would be key to certain technologies.
- Lastly I believe their may have been a misconception in the PAF that Israeli approval may be required. Possibility but would easily be enough to tip the scale.

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## jamal18

araz said:


> I am one of the nay sayers. We all said it did not make sense to us as to why PAF needed another 4.5generation platform in the presence of block 3 which has not (officially) been inducted. We could not work out the need for such a platform especially in our resource constained environment. None of us would be unhappy to be proven wrong and as long as PAF has chosen the J10 due to its capabilities we would be very happy for PAF and Pakistan. Disagreement was based on logic rather than any grudge against the platform .
> However, since the picture of Haseeb Paracha in Chinese platform emerged 2-3 years ago, Sir Bilalkhan 777 said he saw both J10 and J11/16 in PAF. This to me was the earliest confirmation as far as Iam concerned although other posters have since pointed to arrival in first quarter of 22.
> A



It's good to go over one's mistakes and understand the reason for them. It's an improvement process.

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## KaiserX

jamal18 said:


> It's good to go over one's mistakes and understand the reason for them. It's an improvement process.



What mistakes? The J10A was evaluated way back in 2008 by the PAF. Many questions were bought up regarding improvements. The J10C has a larger payload, radar, and engine than the JF17B3. It will more easily integrate intot he PAF current strategy concept compared to the J11 which is a maintenance heavy fighter. 

What logic would the PAF go for J16s after the J10C? more than likely the PAF will evaluate Chinese 5th generations platforms or work with China on a design concepts of our own. 36 has always been the initial number PAF orders for its new fighters. There is a requirements for 60-70 medium weight 4.5 generations fighters and 100+ 5th generation long term (next 10-15 years).

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## Imran Khan

araz said:


> I am one of the nay sayers. We all said it did not make sense to us as to why PAF needed another 4.5generation platform in the presence of block 3 which has not (officially) been inducted. We could not work out the need for such a platform especially in our resource constained environment. None of us would be unhappy to be proven wrong and as long as PAF has chosen the J10 due to its capabilities we would be very happy for PAF and Pakistan. Disagreement was based on logic rather than any grudge against the platform .
> However, since the picture of Haseeb Paracha in Chinese platform emerged 2-3 years ago, Sir Bilalkhan 777 said he saw both J10 and J11/16 in PAF. This to me was the earliest confirmation as far as Iam concerned although other posters have since pointed to arrival in first quarter of 22.
> A


with this deal PAF is delaying 5th gen fighter more 10 years . while rest of world getting to 5th gen we are lacking behind in 4th gen now . PAF was superior because of quality but now its gone .


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## aziqbal

Imran Khan said:


> with this deal PAF is delaying 5th gen fighter more 10 years . while rest of world getting to 5th gen we are lacking behind in 4th gen now . PAF was superior because of quality but now its gone .



5th generation will not be delayed, J10C is nothing to do with Project Azm

Azm will continue at a decent pace with the funding that is available

J10C + JF17 Block III + F16 C/D Block 52+ will ensure we have safe skies well into 2030

an industrial powerhouse like Turkey is building 5th generation and it will also be 2030 by the time it arrives

only few nations have decisions and concepts on 6th generation and aircraft like Tempest wont come online till very late 2030

so PAF is never going to be a "generation" behind so to speak

10 years ago we had F7 when IAF had Su30 MKI now that is what you call a gap, now no more gap

in my opinion JF17 Block III could handle the Rafale R4 but J10C ensures air superiority, its the final seal on the tin

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## Nomad40

Trailer23 said:


> Boo-Yah!!!
> 
> If I had his address, i'd send him a box of Cuban Cigars.


Send it my way.

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## KaiserX

Imran Khan said:


> with this deal PAF is delaying 5th gen fighter more 10 years . while rest of world getting to 5th gen we are lacking behind in 4th gen now . PAF was superior because of quality but now its gone .



Tell that the US which is cutting F35 numbers and ordering hundreds of new F15EXs. 4.5 generations fighter jets will continue to carry value/utility for few decades to come. 5th generation fighters are extremely maintenance heavy and costly to fly with very low serviciability rates. I dont see the PAF ever going for more than 120 AZM jets at most, the vast majority of our airforce upto 2040 will easily be 4.5 generation jets same goes for the USAF/PLAAF/RUAF/ IAF/ etc...

I can almost gaurantee you that the PAF will continue to produce/procure 4.5 generation fighters even when the initial batch of 5th generation fighters are inducted.

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## araz

abdulbarijan said:


> A few pointers to consider:
> 1. Nothing is confirmed until we see the J-10 in Pakistani colors. We have had rumors regarding the J-10 that go back to the day we used to call it "FC-20" (almost 10 years ago) and it was rumored to be the more capable J-10B.
> 
> 2. If let's say, the deal is done, will the J-10's come with the Russian engine or the sino engine ? If it does end up coming with the AL-31, what are the political implications for Indo-Russia friendship ?
> 
> 3. Historically, PAF just doesn't accept Chinese goodies as is. The solutions are tailor made, be it the F-7p/PG or the JFT. What type of modifications will the J-10 incorporate to finally be inducted in the PAF?
> 
> 4. Finally what type of numbers are we looking at? 2 squadrons i.e. 36-40 or something more?
> 
> 5. *Lastly, lets appreciate what has happened in the last 20 years. This was an airforce that was numerically disadvantaged, had no BVR capability, had in its fleet aircrafts that go back to the 60's, and in these 20 years it has steadily grown to be a serious serious threat for the enemies. *
> 
> 6. PS Any word on Chinese HMD/HMS's + PL-10 combo as to how capable it is compared to lets say JHMCS+Aim-9X?


Agree with No1.
2. Chinese engines were the reason there has been a delay. If my memory serves me well PAF as well as PLAAF had issues with AL31FN. However in spite of possible Chinese efforts AL41 has not been released to the Chinese except for the SU35. The timing of the deal supports the induction and PAF satisfaction with the Chinese engines.
3. Agreed however the modifications have seen both Chinese and possibly PAF input. In the case of the PGs the modifications were firstly made by the Chinese and the plane tested by PAF before it placed the order( there is no indication of any PAF input). On the other hand, the Chinese did not have a demonstrable DSI till PAF wanted it on the JFT. They subsequently went on to put it on the J10. So it has per my limited understanding been a mixed bag.
4.Sh Rasheed pointed to 25, however the numbers being hinted are 36. I suspect this is the first order and if PAF is satisfied there will be a follow on order. I suspect we could end up with 90 fighters. 
The real question is whether we get any dual seaters and if so how many!
5 and 6 fully agreed and no comment.
A

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## Imran Khan

KaiserX said:


> What mistakes? The J10A was evaluated way back in 2008 by the PAF. Many questions were bought up regarding improvements. The J10C has a larger payload, radar, and engine than the JF17B3. It will more easily integrate intot he PAF current strategy concept compared to the J11 which is a maintenance heavy fighter.
> 
> What logic would the PAF go for J16s after the J10C? more than likely the PAF will evaluate Chinese 5th generations platforms or work with China on a design concepts of our own. 36 has always been the initial number PAF orders for its new fighters. There is a requirements for 60-70 medium weight 4.5 generations fighters and 100+ 5th generation long term (next 10-15 years).


while world is moving to 5th gen 

users of th gen fighters increasing day by day 
usa 
russia
china 
israel
UK
australia
denmark
japan 
denmark
italy
netherland
norway
S-korea


sooner others like 
UAE
SWITZERLAND
singapore
poland
finland 
aljerea
belgium
INDIA



we will remain back now 15 more years

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## Pappa Alpha

Trango Towers said:


> It kind of looks like an f16


Lavi influence

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## Imran Khan

KaiserX said:


> Tell that the US which is cutting F35 numbers and ordering hundreds of new F15EXs. 4.5 generations fighter jets will continue to carry value/utility for few decades to come. 5th generation fighters are extremely maintenance heavy and costly to fly with very low serviciability rates. I dont see the PAF ever going for more than 120 AZM jets at most, the vast majority of our airforce upto 2040 will easily be 4.5 generation jets same goes for the USAF/PLAAF/RUAF/ IAF/ etc...
> 
> I can almost gaurantee you that the PAF will continue to produce/procure 4.5 generation fighters even when the initial batch of 5th generation fighters are inducted.


730 f-35 produced so far and USA will sure have 2000 f-35 with in few years as planned .

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## Trailer23

News, seems to have reached East of Pakistan - and i'm not talking about our friends in China.






*Pakistan confirms raising squadron of Chinese J-10C in response to India's Rafale jets*​
*The J-10C is considered a capable workhorse of the Chinese air force, but it falls below the cutting-edge capabilities of the Rafale.*

*Ankit Kumar
December 29, 2021*

Putting the speculations to rest, the government of Pakistan has confirmed the acquisition of at least 25 Chinese J-10C fighter jets for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Pakistan's interior minister Sheikh Rashid told reporters in Rawalpindi on Wednesday that a squadron of 25 China-made jets would participate in a fly-past on 23 March. The minister touted the Chinese jets as "an answer to India's Rafale jets".

However, the minister misarticulated the name of the jets repeatedly during his interaction, referring to the jets as "Chinese JS-10". While rumours of Pakistan acquiring Chinese jets have been doing rounds for a long time, a big question mark remains over the claims of the Chinese jets competence against the advanced French Rafale.

Although China has been using the J-10C multirole fighter aircraft to replace its much older J-7E fighters at the People's Liberation Army Air Force's (PLAAF's) brigades, it relied on its much-advanced J-20 stealth jets when it came to monitoring of the crucial Taiwan Strait and East China Sea.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1462021415276670987
The J-10C is considered a capable workhorse of the Chinese air force, but it falls below the cutting-edge capabilities of the Rafale. Commentary in Chinese state media often looks to place the mid-sized fighter jet closer to the Rafale but Rafale's integrated architecture, superior sensors and overall combat capabilities set it apart.

With a distinct advantage in thrust and superior short-range missile, Rafale scores over the J-10C with better kill probability during Within Visual Range (WVR) combat. The combination of RBE2 AESA radar with the Meteor missile in Rafale provides a distinct advantage in the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) combat as well. Rafale's electronic warfare suite is also believed to be the most capable in its class.

The J-10C jets have been sighted during the China-Pakistan joint air exercises recently. Weeks before the formal announcements, the J-10C model was spotted in the pictures of the Pakistan Air Force Chief's office.

The Imran Khan Government's intentions to acquire the Chinese jets have already been questioned by the opposition. "I don't think the J-10C is as good as the Rafale also. We should have invested this money in building Project Azm and enhancing JF-17 capabilities," Dr Afnan Ullah Khan had posted on Twitter, earlier this month.

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## KaiserX

Imran Khan said:


> while world is moving to 5th gen
> 
> users of th gen fighters increasing day by day
> usa
> russia
> china
> israel
> UK
> australia
> denmark
> japan
> denmark
> italy
> netherland
> norway
> S-korea
> 
> 
> sooner others like
> UAE
> SWITZERLAND
> singapore
> poland
> finland
> aljerea
> belgium
> INDIA
> 
> 
> 
> we will remain back now 15 more years












Following the F-15, USAF is considering a new F-16 order - Air Data News


Lockheed Martin’s fighter may be included in the 2023 fiscal budget, according to former secretary




www.airway1.com





Yet here are far more 4.5th generation back orders/new orders placed  The future will be about unmanned drones. There is value in unmanned JF17B3/J10CP redesign manned by 5th generation fighters. That is the future, whether you wanna call 4.5 generation or 6th generation. Doenst matter.


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## Imran Khan

aziqbal said:


> 5th generation will not be delayed, J10C is nothing to do with Project Azm
> 
> Azm will continue at a decent pace with the funding that is available
> 
> J10C + JF17 Block III + F16 C/D Block 52+ will ensure we have safe skies well into 2030
> 
> an industrial powerhouse like Turkey is building 5th generation and it will also be 2030 by the time it arrives
> 
> only few nations have decisions and concepts on 6th generation and aircraft like Tempest wont come online till very late 2030
> 
> so PAF is never going to be a "generation" behind so to speak
> 
> 10 years ago we had F7 when IAF had Su30 MKI now that is what you call a gap, now no more gap
> 
> in my opinion JF17 Block III could handle the Rafale R4 but J10C ensures air superiority, its the final seal on the tin


sir PAF did not buy jets for 15-20 years we buy for 30-40 years these j-10 will be here flying 2050 . if you look history paf always have gap 15+years but becasue those were US systems so when soviet tech reached there we buy another jet from USA . but this time its chinese tech lets see how PAF counter it . forget azm it will be now in 2035-40.

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## araz

Imran Khan said:


> with this deal PAF is delaying 5th gen fighter more 10 years . while rest of world getting to 5th gen we are lacking behind in 4th gen now . PAF was superior because of quality but now its gone .


Khan saheb.
No 5th generation fighter we cqn build/lay our hands on will be ready till mid 30s for sale. So it is a mute point as to whether this is a delay or more pragmatic decision making. I think this is capacity enhancement/buildup in light of the US reluctance to release 16s on OUR TERMS. I keep mentioning Sir Bilakhan 777 but his post at the time suggested PAF was playing the Chinese against the US , waiting for who blinked first. I suspect the Chinese have or PAF lost any hope of US help and bought the J10.
A

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## KaiserX

Imran Khan said:


> sir PAF did not buy jets for 15-20 years we buy for 30-40 years these j-10 will be here flying 2050 . if you look history paf always have gap 15+years but becasue those were US systems so when soviet tech reached there we buy another jet from USA . but this time its chinese tech lets see how PAF counter it . forget azm it will be now in 2035-40.



I doubt it. PAF will most likely have a prototype by 2025. Induction by 2030. Like I said PAF does not need more than 100-120 5th generation jets. Who are we going to fight? afghanistan? iran? our main adversary is Gangis.

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## kingQamaR

USA has finally set us free from its choke

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## NA71

Network Centric Warfare & C4I under relatively new threat Vector " CyberWarfare" must be taken very seriously. Much neglected domain ....in general

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## Imran Khan

KaiserX said:


> I doubt it. PAF will most likely have a prototype by 2025. Induction by 2030. Like I said PAF does not need more than 100-120 5th generation jets. Who are we going to fight? afghanistan? iran? our main adversary is Gangis.


paf need front line fighters more then 120 sir . just look our f-16 orders . but i agree we can not afford more then 120 . as of now first flight will be in 2030 and induction will be 2037-40


araz said:


> Khan saheb.
> No 5th generation fighter we cqn build/lay our hands on will be ready till mid 30s for sale. So it is a mute point as to whether this is a delay or more pragmatic decision making. I think this is capacity enhancement/buildup in light of the US reluctance to release 16s on OUR TERMS. I keep mentioning Sir Bilakhan 777 but his post at the time suggested PAF was playing the Chinese against the US , waiting for who blinked first. I suspect the Chinese have or PAF lost any hope of US help and bought the J10.
> A


i think any Chinese 5th gen even 36 of them were great threat to our enemy . rather then j-10 .


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## aziqbal

Imran Khan said:


> paf need front line fighters more then 120 sir . just look our f-16 orders . but i agree we can not afford more then 120 . as of now first flight will be in 2030 and induction will be 2037-40



Pakistan needs to get the best aircraft with lowest budget

US has unlimited budget

JF17 Block III did what no aircraft can do, provide 4th generation capability's with 3rd generation fighter budget

now we get J10C which is 4.5th generation with again very good budget planning

fully blown 5th generation aircraft will run the cost into billions and we dont need a 5th generation aircraft to fight against Rafale R4

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## Trango Towers

KaiserX said:


> I doubt it. PAF will most likely have a prototype by 2025. Induction by 2030. Like I said PAF does not need more than 100-120 5th generation jets. Who are we going to fight? afghanistan? iran? our main adversary is Gangis.


Your biggest enemy is Israel...India is just practice..

Know your enemies

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## siegecrossbow

Trailer23 said:


> News, seems to have reached East of Pakistan - and i'm not talking about our friends in China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan confirms raising squadron of Chinese J-10C in response to India's Rafale jets*​
> *The J-10C is considered a capable workhorse of the Chinese air force, but it falls below the cutting-edge capabilities of the Rafale.*
> 
> *Ankit Kumar
> December 29, 2021*
> 
> Putting the speculations to rest, the government of Pakistan has confirmed the acquisition of at least 25 Chinese J-10C fighter jets for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Pakistan's interior minister Sheikh Rashid told reporters in Rawalpindi on Wednesday that a squadron of 25 China-made jets would participate in a fly-past on 23 March. The minister touted the Chinese jets as "an answer to India's Rafale jets".
> 
> However, the minister misarticulated the name of the jets repeatedly during his interaction, referring to the jets as "Chinese JS-10". While rumours of Pakistan acquiring Chinese jets have been doing rounds for a long time, a big question mark remains over the claims of the Chinese jets competence against the advanced French Rafale.
> 
> Although China has been using the J-10C multirole fighter aircraft to replace its much older J-7E fighters at the People's Liberation Army Air Force's (PLAAF's) brigades, it relied on its much-advanced J-20 stealth jets when it came to monitoring of the crucial Taiwan Strait and East China Sea.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1462021415276670987
> The J-10C is considered a capable workhorse of the Chinese air force, but it falls below the cutting-edge capabilities of the Rafale. Commentary in Chinese state media often looks to place the mid-sized fighter jet closer to the Rafale but Rafale's integrated architecture, superior sensors and overall combat capabilities set it apart.
> 
> With a distinct advantage in thrust and superior short-range missile, Rafale scores over the J-10C with better kill probability during Within Visual Range (WVR) combat. The combination of RBE2 AESA radar with the Meteor missile in Rafale provides a distinct advantage in the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) combat as well. Rafale's electronic warfare suite is also believed to be the most capable in its class.
> 
> The J-10C jets have been sighted during the China-Pakistan joint air exercises recently. Weeks before the formal announcements, the J-10C model was spotted in the pictures of the Pakistan Air Force Chief's office.
> 
> The Imran Khan Government's intentions to acquire the Chinese jets have already been questioned by the opposition. "I don't think the J-10C is as good as the Rafale also. We should have invested this money in building Project Azm and enhancing JF-17 capabilities," Dr Afnan Ullah Khan had posted on Twitter, earlier this month.





siegecrossbow said:


> In the following weeks, expect the following:
> 
> 1) On Pakistan side J-10C will have become one of the best medium fighters in existence. Cue people playing up its victories in exercises and possibly inventing new ones, like “J-10C shooting down J-20 multiple times with PL-15”.
> 
> 2) On Indian side the J-10C will suddenly become the worst aircraft, even worse than JF-17 because it uses a Chinese engine. Expect the Bhakts to play up the crash rate and reliability issues as well as how *it is no match for Rafales.*

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## waz

Trailer23 said:


> News, seems to have reached East of Pakistan - and i'm not talking about our friends in China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan confirms raising squadron of Chinese J-10C in response to India's Rafale jets*​
> *The J-10C is considered a capable workhorse of the Chinese air force, but it falls below the cutting-edge capabilities of the Rafale.*
> 
> *Ankit Kumar
> December 29, 2021*
> 
> Putting the speculations to rest, the government of Pakistan has confirmed the acquisition of at least 25 Chinese J-10C fighter jets for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Pakistan's interior minister Sheikh Rashid told reporters in Rawalpindi on Wednesday that a squadron of 25 China-made jets would participate in a fly-past on 23 March. The minister touted the Chinese jets as "an answer to India's Rafale jets".
> 
> However, the minister misarticulated the name of the jets repeatedly during his interaction, referring to the jets as "Chinese JS-10". While rumours of Pakistan acquiring Chinese jets have been doing rounds for a long time, a big question mark remains over the claims of the Chinese jets competence against the advanced French Rafale.
> 
> Although China has been using the J-10C multirole fighter aircraft to replace its much older J-7E fighters at the People's Liberation Army Air Force's (PLAAF's) brigades, it relied on its much-advanced J-20 stealth jets when it came to monitoring of the crucial Taiwan Strait and East China Sea.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1462021415276670987
> The J-10C is considered a capable workhorse of the Chinese air force, but it falls below the cutting-edge capabilities of the Rafale. Commentary in Chinese state media often looks to place the mid-sized fighter jet closer to the Rafale but Rafale's integrated architecture, superior sensors and overall combat capabilities set it apart.
> 
> With a distinct advantage in thrust and superior short-range missile, Rafale scores over the J-10C with better kill probability during Within Visual Range (WVR) combat. The combination of RBE2 AESA radar with the Meteor missile in Rafale provides a distinct advantage in the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) combat as well. Rafale's electronic warfare suite is also believed to be the most capable in its class.
> 
> The J-10C jets have been sighted during the China-Pakistan joint air exercises recently. Weeks before the formal announcements, the J-10C model was spotted in the pictures of the Pakistan Air Force Chief's office.
> 
> The Imran Khan Government's intentions to acquire the Chinese jets have already been questioned by the opposition. "I don't think the J-10C is as good as the Rafale also. We should have invested this money in building Project Azm and enhancing JF-17 capabilities," Dr Afnan Ullah Khan had posted on Twitter, earlier this month.





Just like I said 




waz said:


> View attachment 804419
> 
> 
> Made in China stuff man won't work.
> Rafale made by white man much superior.

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## Ali_Baba

aziqbal said:


> in my opinion JF17 Block III could handle the Rafale R4 but J10C ensures air superiority, its the final seal on the tin



I totally agree on this - a JF17 Block III working in an integrated network centric AD network can beat Spectra and it can therefore beat the Rafale - esp with its long range AAM.

PAF still maintains first shot advantage.

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## Pappa Alpha

Imran Khan said:


> i think any Chinese 5th gen even 36 of them were great threat to our enemy . rather then j-10 .


Not available for at least another 5 years.

We need advanced medium weight fighters to further bolster our force before next Indian elections.

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## Trailer23

I don't get the whole J-10 vs. Rafale discussion.

Last I checked, India is keeping the Rafales as far from Pakistan as possible.


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## Ali_Baba

That is what they used to say about the Raptor of the East - its reputation did not last past its first real combat mission by getting shot down.

This is a feel good story for themselves ..

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## The Eagle

Jinn Baba said:


> meets the COAS in relation to economic matters



A little bit of fact sharing can do wonders unless we are program to taunt regardless of reality......

........ Meets COAS in relation to security issues threatening economic activities.

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## Trango Towers

Imran Khan said:


> paf need front line fighters more then 120 sir . just look our f-16 orders . but i agree we can not afford more then 120 . as of now first flight will be in 2030 and induction will be 2037-40
> 
> i think any Chinese 5th gen even 36 of them were great threat to our enemy . rather then j-10 .


But the 5th gen j20 is not for export and j31 isn't ready


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

'Jayess 10' ...

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## The Eagle

truthseeker2010 said:


> There is more than what meets the eye, remember we had a talk regarding a new jet for PAF on another thread, when it first arrived on a PAF base for testing in dead of night (lets spill the beans since it has becoming obvious). You told me to not to stretch it until made official.
> 
> I am again saying J-10 was not the only thing that came back than and PAF won't make public (not directly or indirectly) than what is required to keep its eastern neighbor on toes.



No no no no no no and off course for the last part. Lest run ahead my dear. May be I am not the person interested to stretch onto anything as such.... especially as such.


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## Pappa Alpha

Trango Towers said:


> But the 5th gen j20 is not for export and j31 isn't ready


But BUT Mr. Imran wants them! Tell China he's not taking no for an answer. We have tried everything...

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## Deino

m52k85 said:


> Can you point us to his work?
> 
> 
> 
> Is the engine Chinese or Russian? @Deino your expertise needed here pls.




IMO almost 100% for sure the WS10B ... we haven't seen any J-10C at CAC with the AL-31FN since years. But again, we only know it, when we see them.

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## Raider 21

Trango Towers said:


> Well you are not paying for it so don't worry about it. Most Pakistani don't pay taxes and those that pay pay very little so let it be


Hilarious

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Deino said:


> IMO almost 100% for sure the WS10B ... we haven't seen any J-10C at CAC with the AL-31FN since years. But again, we only know it, when we see them.


It'll be interesting to see how much distance the PAF will put between the J-10CEs and the public, journalists, etc. Though an export variant, the J-10C is both a sensitive piece of tech and one of China's workhorse fighters. Sure, we might catch the engine type and some other details, but I suspect the PAF will keep a shroud over this fighter for most of its service tenure.

It would also be hilarious if the PAF gets the F-16V because the US would ask that it too be kept under a shroud. So, imagine, two sensitive fighters from two opposing powers kept under a shroud in one country. Only one party (PAF) truly knows "what's up" when comparing both. @SQ8

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## Rafi

Total possible procurement of 5 squadrons, (subject to finance,) with latest AA and AtG package.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Rafi said:


> Total possible procurement of 5 squadrons, (subject to finance,) with latest AA and AtG package.


Funds permitting, the PAF generally commits to 90+ units of a fighter type. It's been like that for every fighter the PAF ever bought from its own money -- e.g., F-6, Mirage III/5, F-7, F-16, and JF-17. The only exceptions are sub-variants of mainstay types (like A-5C and F-7PG) or aid.

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## The Eagle

araz said:


> Without going into the nitty gritty of it, with due respect I would disagree with you on this. I fully agree that the source needs to agree to share the photos on open forum. However the cat is out of the bag and it has been confirmed by Sheeda telli who is a Pindi boy anx close to establishment.
> However, it is not my place to disregard forum rules and your enforcing them.
> Kind regards
> A



No problem Sir. My intention was about something untold/kept away and not the news of J-10. The intention was about white hat Data which has to remain untold unless source allows. TNT then confirmed as well that source don't want it to go public yet. Someone has to say this and Shaikh Sahib was the perfect man for the job. Does anyone remember him saying similar thing years ago? He is the man to deliver message without fear and above all, Pindi is his constituency as well. 😂

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## aziqbal

Trailer23 said:


> News, seems to have reached East of Pakistan - and i'm not talking about our friends in China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan confirms raising squadron of Chinese J-10C in response to India's Rafale jets*​
> *The J-10C is considered a capable workhorse of the Chinese air force, but it falls below the cutting-edge capabilities of the Rafale.*
> 
> *Ankit Kumar
> December 29, 2021*
> 
> Putting the speculations to rest, the government of Pakistan has confirmed the acquisition of at least 25 Chinese J-10C fighter jets for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Pakistan's interior minister Sheikh Rashid told reporters in Rawalpindi on Wednesday that a squadron of 25 China-made jets would participate in a fly-past on 23 March. The minister touted the Chinese jets as "an answer to India's Rafale jets".
> 
> However, the minister misarticulated the name of the jets repeatedly during his interaction, referring to the jets as "Chinese JS-10". While rumours of Pakistan acquiring Chinese jets have been doing rounds for a long time, a big question mark remains over the claims of the Chinese jets competence against the advanced French Rafale.
> 
> Although China has been using the J-10C multirole fighter aircraft to replace its much older J-7E fighters at the People's Liberation Army Air Force's (PLAAF's) brigades, it relied on its much-advanced J-20 stealth jets when it came to monitoring of the crucial Taiwan Strait and East China Sea.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1462021415276670987
> The J-10C is considered a capable workhorse of the Chinese air force, but it falls below the cutting-edge capabilities of the Rafale. Commentary in Chinese state media often looks to place the mid-sized fighter jet closer to the Rafale but Rafale's integrated architecture, superior sensors and overall combat capabilities set it apart.
> 
> With a distinct advantage in thrust and superior short-range missile, Rafale scores over the J-10C with better kill probability during Within Visual Range (WVR) combat. The combination of RBE2 AESA radar with the Meteor missile in Rafale provides a distinct advantage in the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) combat as well. Rafale's electronic warfare suite is also believed to be the most capable in its class.
> 
> The J-10C jets have been sighted during the China-Pakistan joint air exercises recently. Weeks before the formal announcements, the J-10C model was spotted in the pictures of the Pakistan Air Force Chief's office.
> 
> The Imran Khan Government's intentions to acquire the Chinese jets have already been questioned by the opposition. "I don't think the J-10C is as good as the Rafale also. We should have invested this money in building Project Azm and enhancing JF-17 capabilities," Dr Afnan Ullah Khan had posted on Twitter, earlier this month.



if JF17 Block II and F16 C/D Block 52+ could ensure IAF is kept at a arms length in Feb 2019 then JF17 Block III could also ensure Rafale R4 is kept at arms length 

I would go even further 

IAF would be so terrified to use Rafale R4 in hot zone incase they have to give answers after they lose one in combat 

look at the PR disaster for the Su30 MKI 

imagine a repeat with Rafale the French would want to get all Rafales back before Indian lose any more 

ok lets not get tooter confident 

PAF fleet is shrinking yes, but into a smaller very much more potent and robust fighting force 

its now a more unified Air Force with overlapping capabilities 

eventually with 188 x JF17A/B Block I, II and III, 76 x F16 C/D Block 52+ and say 25 x J10C (although I doubt the number 25) gives close top 300 Ultra modern aircraft 

backed by legacy aircraft

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Rafi said:


> Total possible procurement of 5 squadrons, (subject to finance,) with latest AA and AtG package.


@Rafi Is there any possibility that CATIC can help us in AZM if we bought J10C in large number?
If we are going to purchase 5 sq. of it, then why not put Raad 2 on it instead of spending dollars on A2G package?


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## araz

Polestar 2 said:


> Then you need to ask yourself this question why China never inducted the JF-17 if its capabilities are matching to J-10 or near on par.
> 
> Not to mention ,JF-17 and J-10 are both design by China. There is no better authority than China to gauge which is better and the very reason why PLAAF induct J-10 only.


The gripe re China and the JFT was the initial news in the Pak media of the Chinese commitment to buying 150 units which it reneged on. PAF felt let down as it would have further lessened the cost of procurement. However the PLAAF makes decisions which suit it. There was also a feeling the number of F7s in Chinese inventory cannot be replaced by J10/16/20 and cost might have been lessened by inducting a relatively cheaper to run platform.
We however, still respect the Chinese decisions made in its own interests and understand its logic given its own ground realities.
A

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## The Eagle

Polestar 2 said:


> Then you need to ask yourself this question why China never inducted the JF-17 if its capabilities are matching to J-10 or near on par.
> 
> Not to mention ,JF-17 and J-10 are both design by China. There is no better authority than China to gauge which is better and the very reason why PLAAF induct J-10 only.



That's not the reason. And if you want to learn, ask question in question instead of affirming else in your question. Given the size, Thunder doesn't fit into PLAAF doctrine. That's alone a fact. Secondly, thunder is JF means, joint fighter. From birth to induction, flying and sales.

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## Trango Towers

KT-1C said:


> What will this jet add to PAF what advantage does it have that JF-17 doesn't?


It has a bigger dunda for Indians...yaar use Google

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## aziqbal

KT-1C said:


> What will this jet add to PAF what advantage does it have that JF-17 doesn't?



J10C with WS10B TVC showed what a marvel of modern engineering it was at the Zhuhai airshow in 2018 

it showed Chinese engineering had reached the best Western counter parts 

PAF pilots will love the TVC on this aircraft

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## Imran Khan

KT-1C said:


> What will this jet add to PAF what advantage does it have that JF-17 doesn't?


more range
more speed
more payload
more EW capabilities
more weapons 

i hate this idea BTW

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## Windjammer

Come on guys, JF-17 is one of the few aircraft which visited India in recent times.

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## Imran Khan

KT-1C said:


> 🤭
> 
> PAF need something like Su35 or j-16


and PAF buy it sir . these J-10s were tested evaluated and selected by same PAF not by ministry of agriculture

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## Pappa Alpha

KT-1C said:


> 🤭
> 
> PAF need something like Su35 or j-16


The only thing we need now is to build inventory of JF-17 BIII and J-10C. After that we need Azm or J-31 or TFX.

However, if quantum radars mature then 5th gen will be relegated to 4.5+ gen.

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## Trango Towers

Windjammer said:


> Come on guys, JF-17 is one of the few aircraft which visited India in recent times.
> 
> View attachment 804444


One must keep an eye on their neighbours and check on their wellbeing

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## Rafi

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> @Rafi Is there any possibility that CATIC can help us in AZM if we bought J10C in large number?
> If we are going to purchase 5 sq. of it, then why not put Raad 2 on it instead of spending dollars on A2G package?



Azm custom built joint fighter with some indigenous condiments including chilli sauce and mayo.

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## dBSPL

So now the most beautiful Rafale photos will have the J-10 HUD frame.

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## araz

Imran Khan said:


> paf need front line fighters more then 120 sir . just look our f-16 orders . but i agree we can not afford more then 120 . as of now first flight will be in 2030 and induction will be 2037-40
> 
> i think any Chinese 5th gen even 36 of them were great threat to our enemy . rather then j-10 .


Fully agreed but the PLAAF has a huge internal demand. Secondly it has said that currently it will not export J20. J31/35 is not reaxy, nor is TFX. You cannot get F16s from the US , THEY WILL NOT LET YOU SMELL THE EXHAUST OF THE 35. The Russian fighter is not ready and I dont think our own fighter will be ready before mid 30s.
On the other hand both PGs and Mirages( the nonupgraded ones) need replacing. We can only produce 12 JFTs a year so where do we go and what do/we do?
It is a pragmatic decision and whereas I think had the US door been open we would not have looked towards theJ10 (as we have vast experience of maintaining/flying the platform), under the current circumstances it is the best option open to us.
A

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## ziaulislam

KT-1C said:


> What will this jet add to PAF what advantage does it have that JF-17 doesn't?


Larger radar
Larger range/paylod
More sensors
Almost 50% more
Very cheap cost due to mass production

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## NA71

Social Media reporting First 10 Jets will arrive in Feb 2022.

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## The Eagle

Also, it might have skipped through the minds of many here but, less is seen in regard to advance and modern weapon procurement like F-16 or J-10.

Taking over the command of balancing geostrategic equation and replacing a power with more influence having control to hold the region together and with equal military power balance.

Does anyone try to understand that? US always vouch and sold weapons only as per needed power balance and keeping the influence over certain parties in the region while controlling the escalation tech. We have seen it before and that too, it was kept balanced by Pakistan. Whether USSR in Afghanistan or post Afghan war, Pakistan emerges as the regional king maker.

A fact and bit of harsh reality which is more of a truth to say that US will have hard time to forget instead of people saying that PAF is obsessed and F-16 boys wouldn't let it go. Ultimately, Pakistan is the one balancing regional conventional power by keeping ahead of only warmongering PM in East. Eventually and not to surprise, China has taken over the role of balancing the regional theater by way of weapon sale and so the economic practice. The geostrategic balance command is shifted to China and who's the key here.... Pakistan.

This fact alone hitting hard or might be hard for Viper producing and blocking Country.

China is now replacing US in this regard and the show has just begun. It's not just about J-10C but that command to control and balance regional strategic games. The most sensitive and advance tech, aka J-10 is nothing less than those Vipers in 80s for PAF. Game changing and so the geostrategic referee. For US, holding back onto something such as Viper and some other stuff believing into submission by Pakistan, was the least wrong move and apparently lost it.

What's next then? Drums of unrest and chaotic situation so that Pakistan, China and Russia be affected. Pakistan could be the first Target since only Muslim nuclear power and with unsustainable economy till now.

Game rules changing and so the game itself.

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## TsAr

Deino said:


> Please give us a hint .


Why the hint when you would not believe it without seeing it....

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## mingle

Rafi said:


> There is other stuff.......nuff said


All PAF related or other forces too?


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## Pappa Alpha

Severe shortage in India of the following...

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## MisterSyed

Man i cant wait to see J10c in PAF color Scheme...

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## FuturePAF

Riz said:


> No one is willing to sale BVRs to Egypt, indian rafales coming with better equipment



Indians paid double to get certain key ToT, but the French have reneged on the agreement, claiming Indian companies can not absorb the technology. India has sued Dassault.

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## Trailer23

Pappa Alpha said:


> Severe shortage in India of the following...
> 
> View attachment 804473


*New Packing...*

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## The Terminator

The hi


Mav3rick said:


> It is not just about the Missile(s) but the SPECTRA suite on Rafale which sets the French jets apart from most competition. With SPECTRA, the Jets virtually become stealth and do not appear on enemy sensors.


Well EW capability is an entirely a different kind of weird wizardry. It's quite possible that the world's most advanced EW suite could fail against primitive sensors or the world's sloppiest EW suite might shine against the best of sensors package.

So unless the 2 adversaries actually come against each other with their support package in real time scenario then the EW score would be settled more precisely. Untill then both the sides would try their best in Electronic Intelligence gathering and keep guessing the other's capabilities.

And for start, Qatar's Rafale are deployed in Turkey where both the Turks and Pakistan evaluate them thoroughly and the latest tranche of most advanced Rafales would be coming to the UAE soon too.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

dBSPL said:


> So now the most beautiful Rafale photos will have the J-10 HUD frame.


Would love to see J-10CP photos with a slight reflection of the TFX canopy (and vice-versa)

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## Trango Towers

The Eagle said:


> Also, it might have skipped through the minds of many here but, less is seen in regard to advance and modern weapon procurement like F-16 or J-10.
> 
> Taking over the command of balancing geostrategic equation and replacing a power with more influence having control to hold the region together and with equal military power balance.
> 
> Does anyone try to understand that? US always vouch and sold weapons only as per needed power balance and keeping the influence over certain parties in the region while controlling the escalation tech. We have seen it before and that too, it was kept balanced by Pakistan. Whether USSR in Afghanistan or post Afghan war, Pakistan emerges as the regional king maker.
> 
> A fact and bit of harsh reality which is more of a truth to say that US will have hard time to forget instead of people saying that PAF is obsessed and F-16 boys wouldn't let it go. Ultimately, Pakistan is the one balancing regional conventional power by keeping ahead of only warmongering PM in East. Eventually and not to surprise, China has taken over the role of balancing the regional theater by way of weapon sale and so the economic practice. The geostrategic balance command is shifted to China and who's the key here.... Pakistan.
> 
> This fact alone hitting hard or might be hard for Viper producing and blocking Country.
> 
> China is now replacing US in this regard and the show has just begun. It's not just about J-10C but that command to control and balance regional strategic games. The most sensitive and advance tech, aka J-10 is nothing less than those Vipers in 80s for PAF. Game changing and so the geostrategic referee. For US, holding back onto something such as Viper and some other stuff believing into submission by Pakistan, was the least wrong move and apparently lost it.
> 
> What's next then? Drums of unrest and chaotic situation so that Pakistan, China and Russia be affected. Pakistan could be the first Target since only Muslim nuclear power and with unsustainable economy till now.
> 
> Game rules changing and so the game itself.


Well written and very true.
However in order to get some influence the US may now offer additional f16 and upgrades. Life is never simple and Pakistan is a country that simply cannot be ignored. Imagine if we were not corrupt ... kash igar

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## Signalian

Imran Khan said:


> sir PAF did not buy jets for 15-20 years we buy for 30-40 years these j-10 will be here flying 2050 . if you look history paf always have gap 15+years but becasue those were US systems so when soviet tech reached there we buy another jet from USA . but this time its chinese tech lets see how PAF counter it . forget azm it will be now in 2035-40.


I would have been overjoyed if a stealth aircraft was joining PAF instead of another 4th gen like J-10. This would then have been a considerable leap over IAF's Rafale acquisition.

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## The Terminator

MH.Yang said:


> Can this news be confirmed to be true? Can I forward it to the forum in China?


A federal minister who has allegedly ties with the military establishment is quite a revelation! It's more probable to be true.

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## GriffinsRule

Polestar 2 said:


> Then you need to ask yourself this question why China never inducted the JF-17 if its capabilities are matching to J-10 or near on par.
> 
> Not to mention ,JF-17 and J-10 are both design by China. There is no better authority than China to gauge which is better and the very reason why PLAAF induct J-10 only.


Same reason why people including me were against J-10 in PAF. Same era fighter with pretty much the same capability and hence little need to add another type to fleet.

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## The Eagle

Trango Towers said:


> Well written and very true.
> However in order to get some influence the US may now offer additional f16 and upgrades. Life is never simple and Pakistan is a country that simply cannot be ignored. Imagine if we were not corrupt ... kash igar



I agree on the part of further possible offer by US to keep the doors open for the least of relations but, that boat of major non NATO ally and mutual works has sailed. Any further dealing would be like a matter of usual give and get.

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## Trango Towers

The Eagle said:


> I agree on the part of further possible offer by US to keep the doors open for the least of relations but, that boat of major non NATO ally and mutual works has sailed. Any further dealing would be like a matter of usual give and get.


Yes bhai...

Knowing Americas past they will drop their pants when it suits them. They have almost no influence in Pakistan other than f16s and cobras. 
They know that j10c is to counter their f16 position..they have no cards left.

We live in interesting times. Let's see InshAllah

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## khail007

Riz said:


> No one is willing to sale BVRs to Egypt, indian rafales coming with better equipment



Egypt previously shows interest in JF-17; if they want BVRs then to keep their interest alive.

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## The Eagle

Trango Towers said:


> Yes bhai...
> 
> Knowing Americas past they will drop their pants when it suits them. They have almost no influence in Pakistan other than f16s and cobras.
> They know that j10c is to counter their f16 position..they have no cards left.
> 
> We live in interesting times. Let's see InshAllah



In'Sha'ALLAH... Everything will be ok. Not much of worrying in military procurement or armament domain. 

What worries me personally, and I say that personally I am worried due to most corrupt, double faced so-called public leaders in political domain and in the form of media/influencers etc that are on disposal of foreign sponsors. That area will remain a threat but let's hope for the best while we strive for it. Unless we are not helping ourselves, I see hoping is merely like deceiving ourselves since we are too incompetent and lazy to bear the hardships.

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## Deltadart

Battlion25 said:


> This basically. The F16s are match for the Rafales but in order to gain the qualitative edge this was the move to do getting J10s with 200km BVR range.. This has to be a continuous process and goes onto in the 2029-2030s our plan has to be to induct MIUS and TFX which are two 5th generation unmanned and manned aircrafts the dice keeps rolling and we constantly keep that pace with India thru to until 2050s.... Keeping the qualitative edge.
> 
> On all sectors.
> 
> stragetic force operational level
> Conventional operational level
> Intelligence operational level


The latest version of F16s could give most fighters in it's class a run


waz said:


> Folks no need for any pinch of salt or confirmation. Myself @Signalian @The Eagle have been moderating posts of an extremely sensitive nature, the news was confirmed quite a while back and they will be here in numbers in March.
> Congrats to all.


Congrats to all the mods, analysts, and our seniors here.


SIPRA said:


> Indian posters are, by and large, absent from this thread.


Oh no, you have done it now. Now we will be swarmed by the bobble head indians en masse.

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## Jinn Baba

The Eagle said:


> A little bit of fact sharing can do wonders unless we are program to taunt regardless of reality......
> 
> ........ Meets COAS in relation to security issues threatening economic activities.



With respect, how does that change my point? 

I was making fun of the role many VVIPs in Pakistan play, and how its often completely unrelated to their actual role/job.

Like the COAS speaking to business leaders about _internal_ security, whilst the Interior minister breaks the biggest defence related news in years.


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## The Eagle

Jinn Baba said:


> With respect, how does that change my point?
> 
> I was making fun of the role many VVIPs in Pakistan play, and how its often completely unrelated to their actual role/job.
> 
> Like the COAS speaking to business leaders about _internal_ security, whilst the Interior minister breaks the biggest defence related news in years.



You are still way off the mark. COAS rile was precise and based upon the request of business community due to prevailing law and order situation especially in Karachi in regard to extortions, kidnappings, blackmailing and threats. Being COAS, he was right to meet and hear them. You sound totally opposite to his role and compares him in some misplaced priority kind of list. Shaikh Rasheed did so and on purpose.

To talk about it openly, let's see the mental level and approach.

In neighbours, Rafale becomes the national anthem against every threat for India while in Pakistan, an interior minister announced the alleged procurement. Up the game more now, if you can. Just that much was since defence is strong and we.dint need to brag about, produce a movie with item song and pass a resolution or even speak on the assembly floor or sacrifice some sacrificial to be done. It's just that normal for higher ups and people involved in business.

Regards with PERIOD

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## Valiant

Message to our Vedic friends.

Get ready for more surprises in the near future

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## Taimoor Khan

The Eagle said:


> Also, it might have skipped through the minds of many here but, less is seen in regard to advance and modern weapon procurement like F-16 or J-10.
> 
> Taking over the command of balancing geostrategic equation and replacing a power with more influence having control to hold the region together and with equal military power balance.
> 
> Does anyone try to understand that? US always vouch and sold weapons only as per needed power balance and keeping the influence over certain parties in the region while controlling the escalation tech. We have seen it before and that too, it was kept balanced by Pakistan. Whether USSR in Afghanistan or post Afghan war, Pakistan emerges as the regional king maker.
> 
> A fact and bit of harsh reality which is more of a truth to say that US will have hard time to forget instead of people saying that PAF is obsessed and F-16 boys wouldn't let it go. Ultimately, Pakistan is the one balancing regional conventional power by keeping ahead of only warmongering PM in East. Eventually and not to surprise, China has taken over the role of balancing the regional theater by way of weapon sale and so the economic practice. The geostrategic balance command is shifted to China and who's the key here.... Pakistan.
> 
> This fact alone hitting hard or might be hard for Viper producing and blocking Country.
> 
> China is now replacing US in this regard and the show has just begun. It's not just about J-10C but that command to control and balance regional strategic games. The most sensitive and advance tech, aka J-10 is nothing less than those Vipers in 80s for PAF. Game changing and so the geostrategic referee. For US, holding back onto something such as Viper and some other stuff believing into submission by Pakistan, was the least wrong move and apparently lost it.
> 
> What's next then? Drums of unrest and chaotic situation so that Pakistan, China and Russia be affected. Pakistan could be the first Target since only Muslim nuclear power and with unsustainable economy till now.
> 
> Game rules changing and so the game itself.



At a time when yanks are going full throttle against China, they will be most upset about this. It's a huge marketing coup for China to sell its frontline jets to one of the best Airforce. Other nations will be looking at it with keen interest.

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## Blueskiez 2001

Inducting a plane is not only about the type of plane nowadays. What good is it to induct a fighter plane that cannot fire the wanted weapon, communicate with your other assets and so on. On top of that you need the ecosystem to service and maintenance...

So in this regard J-10CE suits perfect in PAF.

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## Trailer23

khail007 said:


> Egypt previously shows interest in JF-17; if they want BVRs then to keep their interest alive.


Yaar, they are getting the Meteor for their Rafales from MBDA, so not much hope there, but you never know.

Personally, I can't recall seeing such a diverse Air Force that seems to be on a buying spree from all parts of the World in such a short span.

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## JawadKKhan

Trango Towers said:


> Yes bhai...
> 
> Knowing Americas past they will drop their pants when it suits them. They have almost no influence in Pakistan other than f16s and cobras.
> They know that j10c is to counter their f16 position..they have no cards left.
> 
> We live in interesting times. Let's see InshAllah



I have to disagree bhai.. 

Americans still have a LOT of influence on Pakistan. Countries are run by economy. 

The USA is our largest trading partner in surplus. Means we Export way more goods to US then we import. 

While China is our Largest trade deficit. That means, china buy very few items from us but sells us a lot. We are not self sufficient enough that a super power like USA will drop their pants. Infact, we will be financially crushed if US puts us on sanctions. 

So, it is essential for us to keep good relations with uncle sam as well. At the same time, we need to fix our economy and resolve this massive trade deficit with China. 

In the military front as well, the US will remain relevant as long as F-16s are in service. We need their support / maintenance / spares to keep them in good shape. So its not the end of US influence at all.

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## Jinn Baba

The Eagle said:


> You are still way off the mark. COAS rile was precise and based upon the request of business community due to prevailing law and order situation especially in Karachi in regard to extortions, kidnappings, blackmailing and threats. Being COAS, he was right to meet and hear them.



Lets agree to disagree then.

I'm in too positive a mood today over the J10 news to post negativity (even though I'm right )

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## ziaulislam

Dont know the benefit of this
Indian intellgence knew of this induction & jf17 before anyone here
The reason why they hurried to get rafale and s400


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## Xone

Great News at a testing time for the region. 
J-10C was been on the list lending the true flavour of interoperability between PAF and PLAAF. China and Pakistan doing their best to enhance it to the next level by the commonalities of weapon systems in all forces including the Army, Navy, and PAF.
J-10C will come in Numbers that is the essence of interoperability among the friendly forces. 
The US has lost its Carrot part in form of F-16 while the Stick is still intact in the shape of IMF for Pakistan , How long does this Stick part remain effective? The time is running out. But it is hurting immensely taking Pakistan further away to the point of a complete rupture in US Pak military relations.
Let's see the next move and counter-move in a complex regional and world greater game.
Game on Hai.

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## JawadKKhan

The Eagle said:


> I agree on the part of further possible offer by US to keep the doors open for the least of relations but, that boat of major non NATO ally and mutual works has sailed. Any further dealing would be like a matter of usual give and get.


Would have to disagree brother!.. On the contrary, It is Pakistan's every intention to keep the door open. US with world's largest economy can easily afford to move away from us, it will 0.003 percent effect its economy. Geo-strategically, it does not need Pakistan as much as it needed a year ago, It has left Afghanistan. It is enjoying great relations with our arch rival india. For us, for our exports, the USA is everything! it's our largest buyer of our exports. Not just cotton, but our emerging IT industry thrives on US based clients. 

Pakistan's military establishment is very keen to have great relations with both China & US. We know, we still need US for our exports, for its influence on Europe, for US being the leader / important player of many intl organisations. 

US is still very relevant and key player in defense / technology / infrastructure. Not just in keeping the PAF F-16 fleet operational but in much broader spectrum that we overlook. For instance, the GPS which we use in almost every commercial app and even low level military gadgets use it.. It is the product of DoD of USA. Anyways, topic will slide somewhere else. Would be happy to discuss the enormous US influence on Pakistan in any other thread. 

However, the positive thing is J-10C is another series of breaking the dependence on US on high tech military equipment. First major step was laid by JF-17. For us as a nation, we should be looking for our own home grown capabilities in next 1 to 2 decades. So neither side can influence us for their vested interests. 

Cheers.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> Dont know the benefit of this
> Indian intellgence knew of this induction & jf17 before anyone here
> The reason why they hurried to get rafale and s400


The S-400 is probably for keeping the PAF away from India's heartland. They won't station it too close to the border due to the risk of ELINT picking it up and, in turn, the Pak Army using GLCMs, G-MLRS, etc on it. Shahpar-II-type UAVs also add to the risk of deploying the S-400 too close to Pakistan.

I reckon India will use the S-400 to cut the PAF's offensive reach to northwest India. This way, the IAF can safely mobilize its long-range assets from deep within India and, in turn, preserve its own offensive edge. Basically, the point is to nullify any future Swift Retort-type gains.

For India, the real question is how many J-10CE and Block-3 units the PAF will field through the 2020s. Will the PAF reach its optimal strength numbers -- e.g., 90+ J-10CE plus 150+ Block-3 and AESA-equipped Block-1/2/B?

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## GumNaam

JawadKKhan said:


> Waiting to see "JS-10" !



what's wrong with what he said?
J-10C in english translates to JS-10 in Urdu. 

ha'ay ray urdu medium...🤦🏻‍♂️


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## The Eagle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The S-400 is probably for keeping the PAF away from India's heartland. They won't station it too close to the border due to the risk of ELINT picking it up and, in turn, the Pak Army using GLCMs, G-MLRS, etc on it. Shahpar-II-type UAVs also add to the risk of deploying the S-400 too close to Pakistan.
> 
> I reckon India will use the S-400 to cut the PAF's offensive reach to northwest India. This way, the IAF can safely mobilize its long-range assets from deep within India and, in turn, preserve its own offensive edge. Basically, the point is to nullify any future Swift Retort-type gains.
> 
> For India, the real question is how many J-10CE and Block-3 units the PAF will field through the 2020s. Will the PAF reach its optimal strength numbers -- e.g., 90+ J-10CE plus 150+ Block-3 and AESA-equipped Block-1/2/B?



Speaking of S-400 on a side note, what just happened in Latakia, Syria to Russian deployed S-400 and the way Israelis flew low level flight while S-400 remained blind; is or could be interesting as well. Tactics, equipment and approach is totally different ball game indeed but I just wanted to say Hi 👋 to our neighboura.


GumNaam said:


> what's wrong with what he said?
> J-10C in english translates to JS-10 in Urdu.
> 
> ha'ay ray urdu medium...🤦🏻‍♂️



He still maintained the secrecy at very last of tongue slip and nobody knows that these are actually secret joint fighter JF - 10CPs like JF-17s.

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## ARMalik

Apparently, Pakistan's J-10s are highly MODIFIED versions.

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## JawadKKhan

ziaulislam said:


> Dont know the benefit of this
> Indian intellgence knew of this induction & jf17 before anyone here
> The reason why they hurried to get rafale and s400


I doubt it has to do anything with their intelligence. They expedite Rafales after seeing aftermath of 27th Feb, They witness their MKIs are good for nothing against F-16s + AMRAAMS combo. PAF was out ranging the IAF jets. So with or without J-10s they had to expedite Rafales.

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## The Eagle

JawadKKhan said:


> Would have to disagree brother!.. On the contrary, It is Pakistan's every intention to keep the door open. US with world's largest economy can easily afford to move away from us, it will 0.003 percent effect its economy. Geo-strategically, it does not need Pakistan as much as it needed a year ago, It has left Afghanistan. It is enjoying great relations with our arch rival india. For us, for our exports, the USA is everything! it's our largest buyer of our exports. Not just cotton, but our emerging IT industry thrives on US based clients.
> 
> Pakistan's military establishment is very keen to have great relations with both China & US. We know, we still need US for our exports, for its influence on Europe, for US being the leader / important player of many intl organisations.
> 
> US is still very relevant and key player in defense / technology / infrastructure. Not just in keeping the PAF F-16 fleet operational but in much broader spectrum that we overlook. For instance, the GPS which we use in almost every commercial app and even low level military gadgets use it.. It is the product of DoD of USA. Anyways, topic will slide somewhere else. Would be happy to discuss the enormous US influence on Pakistan in any other thread.
> 
> However, the positive thing is J-10C is another series of breaking the dependence on US on high tech military equipment. First major step was laid by JF-17. For us as a nation, we should be looking for our own home grown capabilities in next 1 to 2 decades. So neither side can influence us for their vested interests.
> 
> Cheers.



Undoubtedly, Pakistan US relations have no warmth like past but as I said, based on give and take ----- as the need be basis.


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## Trailer23

GriffinsRule said:


> Same reason why people including me were against J-10 in PAF. Same era fighter with pretty much the same capability and hence little need to add another type to fleet.


Look, this isn't about being for or against a particular equipment. I'm pretty sure the PAF must have exhausted their minds over what to go for, long before placing the order a few years back.

When it comes to Pakistan, we all gotta accept the fact that any & every move me make/take - seems to always come and haunt us, be it our Politicians, IMF, FATF, US, India, Taliban etc.

In the past, we here on PDF have had so many debates about the J-10 vs. JF-17.

I personally think the J-10 to be superior to the JF-17 by a mile.

Do you really consider it to be a 4th Gen Aircraft? I'd give it a 4,5 just like Rafale & the up coming F-16 Block 70/72.


ziaulislam said:


> Indian intellgence knew of this induction & jf17 before anyone here


Yes, and apparently they knew of the Big Bang too

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The S-400 is probably for keeping the PAF away from India's heartland. They won't station it too close to the border due to the risk of ELINT picking it up and, in turn, the Pak Army using GLCMs, G-MLRS, etc on it. Shahpar-II-type UAVs also add to the risk of deploying the S-400 too close to Pakistan.
> 
> I reckon India will use the S-400 to cut the PAF's offensive reach to northwest India. This way, the IAF can safely mobilize its long-range assets from deep within India and, in turn, preserve its own offensive edge. Basically, the point is to nullify any future Swift Retort-type gains.
> 
> For India, the real question is how many J-10CE and Block-3 units the PAF will field through the 2020s. Will the PAF reach its optimal strength numbers -- e.g., 90+ J-10CE plus 150+ Block-3 and AESA-equipped Block-1/2/B?


Its logical to get 72+/4 squardons once we decide to get it since f16s are dead
This is probably going to be around 50m a piece
Or 4b$ or around 100 jf17


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The S-400 is probably for keeping the PAF away from India's heartland. They won't station it too close to the border due to the risk of ELINT picking it up and, in turn, the Pak Army using GLCMs, G-MLRS, etc on it. Shahpar-II-type UAVs also add to the risk of deploying the S-400 too close to Pakistan.
> 
> I reckon India will use the S-400 to cut the PAF's offensive reach to northwest India. This way, the IAF can safely mobilize its long-range assets from deep within India and, in turn, preserve its own offensive edge. Basically, the point is to nullify any future Swift Retort-type gains.
> 
> For India, the real question is how many J-10CE and Block-3 units the PAF will field through the 2020s. Will the PAF reach its optimal strength numbers -- e.g., 90+ J-10CE plus 150+ Block-3 and AESA-equipped Block-1/2/B?


Its logical to get 72+/4 squardons once we decide to get it since f16s are dead
This is probably going to be around 50m a piece
Or 4b$ or around 100 jf17


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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> *Look, this isn't about being for or against a particular equipment. I'm pretty sure the PAF must have exhausted their minds over what to go for, long before placing the order a few years back.*


Negative sir, check PM

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## Khan vilatey

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Politicians need to tag mileage! Anyway, it's a good one, especially while being dombaredrd with the fake bravado from the Hindutas...



my friend I believe some khaki makhlooq must have told sheikh sahib to put this out. Sheikh sahib has never released secret information he is close to GHQ.

I believe there is a massive media war , the chief goes to massive exercises in Punjab and Sindh…..tons of equipment being prepared ….. something is brewing…… will start a new thread

k

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## akramishaqkhan

araz said:


> Without going into the nitty gritty of it, with due respect I would disagree with you on this. I fully agree that the source needs to agree to share the photos on open forum. However the cat is out of the bag and it has been confirmed by Sheeda telli who is a Pindi boy anx close to establishment.
> However, it is not my place to disregard forum rules and your enforcing them.
> Kind regards
> A


It is likely not about J10C - but about some other platforms that are as yet not disclosed. It is a matter of weeks - it will come out soon enough.

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## Deltadart

Pappa Alpha said:


> Severe shortage in India of the following...
> 
> View attachment 804473


Indian dhobis are working overtime to clean all the soiled dhotis after the breaking of this news.

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## GumNaam

akramishaqkhan said:


> It is likely not about J10C - but about some other platforms that are as yet not disclosed. It is a matter of weeks - it will come out soon enough.


its J10...he did say "J" and "TEN", whether it's C or S remains to be seen.


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## akramishaqkhan

GumNaam said:


> its J10...he did say "J" and "TEN", whether it's C or S remains to be seen.


I was talking about the info that remains unshared given concerns and sensitivity. I think we know whatever there is to know about J10C. Question on that remains costs, numbers, specific PAF related upgrades etc. There are a few more smaller surprises to show up in 2022 (both for PAF and PA). I am presuming the member is referencing those rather than J10C, and is therefore being smart to not let those items out earlier than they should.

In all honesty I am super excited with what is in store for the Navy in the next 2-5 years. Navy is undergoing some major shifts and changes. It is so nice to see, that arm being given its due share. With new frigates, Hangor class subs, UCAVs, SLBMs and stronger coastal defence along-with a whole new ranges of radars and BMS, the Navy will have a completely different look in 5 to 10 years. If the rumors around the 52Ds is true then Navy will pack a strong punch in the coming years.

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## GumNaam

akramishaqkhan said:


> I was talking about the info that remains unshared given concerns and sensitivity. I think we know whatever there is to know. There are a few more smaller surprises to show up in 2022. I am presuming the member is referencing those rather than J10C.


it's the secret, unshared info that is keeping the iaf runways empty and sewage lines clogged. 😆

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## ummarz

Congratulations my fellow PDFers. What a great way to end the year eh?

I must say that to me getting more F-16s made more sense than J-10 purely from the logistical point of view. But I am no expert. And once HQ9P was acquired by the army rather than the airforce I had a strong suspicion that we may get J-10. The only logical use of the funds saved by airforce would be to acquire a new Jet. And J-10 just made sense. It mates very well with everything we have now, the backbone fighter JF-17, the SAM HQ9P, and the Chinese AWACS. 

The squadron that J-10 is going into was a strike squadron. Which tells a lot about PAFs changing doctrine from mostly defensive to perhaps a touch of offensive. Definitely more offensive than before.

PAF was never a walkover, but now its going to be a pain in the rear for IAF. 

Soon we might just hear: "Agar Eph Thirty Phyep Hota"

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## siegecrossbow

Depending on when Shaheen X happens we might even see J-10Cs piloted by Pakistanis pilots participate.

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## Trango Towers

JawadKKhan said:


> I have to disagree bhai..
> 
> Americans still have a LOT of influence on Pakistan. Countries are run by economy.
> 
> The USA is our largest trading partner in surplus. Means we Export way more goods to US then we import.
> 
> While China is our Largest trade deficit. That means, china buy very few items from us but sells us a lot. We are not self sufficient enough that a super power like USA will drop their pants. Infact, we will be financially crushed if US puts us on sanctions.
> 
> So, it is essential for us to keep good relations with uncle sam as well. At the same time, we need to fix our economy and resolve this massive trade deficit with China.
> 
> In the military front as well, the US will remain relevant as long as F-16s are in service. We need their support / maintenance / spares to keep them in good shape. So its not the end of US influence at all.


This is true re economy and spares. In terms of US regional foreign policy their influence is limited. Do more is no more. Afghanistan showed that we said yes but we did what we wanted and nukes are a great check. So America has to play carefully as well and it's not all one sided

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## Hayreddin

j10 C already been in our airspace for months now . PAF prefer silence contrary to our adversary who beat drums on every acquisition . 
few more surprises to come on 23 rd march but alot would be secured for day of action like swift retort

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## GiG

One day somebody will be proudly wearing PL-15 dodger patch 😃

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## SaadH

Deino said:


> Again IMO close to impossible. More likely would be another Y-9 EW-Type, Y-20 transports or helicopters, but no Flankers.


Yes, it's most likey the Z-10s.

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## PakAlp

We already have 75 F16s, from them 18 are block 52s, we have Jf17s and now Jf17 Block 3s are coming. 250 Jf17s + 75 F16s + 75 Mirages. These 3 platforms should be enough to counter IAF until 2030 when a 5th generation J35/J20/TFX arrived, the billions spent on J10C could have been invested in to J35s.

I assume paf wanted an offensive platform and they had their eyes on f16s block 70s but since that is not possible and Jf17 is defensive jet (less payload, weapons, range etc) so J10C was the best available option. You can use it as a offensive asset and use it for the navy to replace the Mirage. Eurofighter Typhoon was my choice for a 4.5th generation offensive asset.

253 Jf17s
75 f16s
72 J10C

400 4th + 4.5th generation jets till 2035.

Pakistan Naval fighter jet range area.

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## Trango Towers

*Thrust vectoring* on the j10C .. super maneuverability.

@Deino has kindly pointed out since that this is incorrect so please ignore. There is no thrust vectoring

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## jupiter2007

monitor said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476206464691851269
> Official word for which Pakistani people egarly waited for years.



Joint strike-10 ???


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## PakAlp

jupiter2007 said:


> Joint strike-10 ???



He was probably on about JF17 block 3. It will be ready by 23rd March and Inducted 😄


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## jupiter2007

PakAlp said:


> He was probably on about JF17 block 3. It will be ready by 23rd March and Inducted 😄



He mentioned in the interview back in 2019 that Pakistan is getting J-10. PAF must have started negotiating for it in 2018.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Congrats on arrival of J10 Birds , too bad the J10 threads have been deleted they had epic number of pages

The vision sought from Musharaf Sahib has become reality we will get the J10 as planned for arrival in 2014, will arrive in 2022

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## XVIV

Seemingly inevitable due to economic pressures on the country together with the reluctance of the US to sell any other systems and to subject them to stringent conditions even if they did. Though I think I'll wait for a better source for now - when it comes to public pronouncements in Pakistani politics and media, anything is possible (who remembers the car that supposedly ran on water a few years back?).


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## Pakistan Space Agency

Salza said:


> *First direct and official confirmation of J10C induction by PAF.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> watch after 6.00
> 
> Though the news source was posted by someone in New PAF fighter plane doctrine earlier today but I believe , the news itself deserved a new thread since there still have been an ambiguity about J10C induction into PAF until now.
> 
> Sheikh Rasheed always been a big mouth but nevertheless he is an interior minister of Pakistan right now. No joke!
> special tagging @Zarvan : d


This is what the Interior Minister Shaikh Rasheed said in comments lasting 37 seconds:

_Meh aap ka shukriya ada karta hun aur sari qaum ko yakeen dilana chahta hun._​​_Batain log kar rahay hain._​​_23 March ki meh nay un say request ki hai, kay 30 March kar dain, kyu kay bohot VIP guest ah rahay hain._​​_Aur, pehli dafa Pakistan meh JS-10 ki flying past ho rahi hai._​​_Rafale kay muqablay meh Pakistan Air Force jo hai, flying past karnay lagi hai JS-10 Cheen kay jahaaz say._​​_Yeh Rafale kay torr meh hum nay, JS-10 jo hai, wo aik poora 25 ka squadron flying past karay ga._​​_Aur, hum apnay diffa say bi ghafil nahi. Hamari azeem afwaaj hai._​

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## XVIV

ummarz said:


> Congratulations my fellow PDFers. What a great way to end the year eh?
> 
> *I must say that to me getting more F-16s made more sense than J-10 purely from the logistical point of view.* But I am no expert. And once HQ9P was acquired by the army rather than the airforce I had a strong suspicion that we may get J-10. The only logical use of the funds saved by airforce would be to acquire a new Jet. And J-10 just made sense. It mates very well with everything we have now, the backbone fighter JF-17, the SAM HQ9P, and the Chinese AWACS.
> 
> The squadron that J-10 is going into was a strike squadron. Which tells a lot about PAFs changing doctrine from mostly defensive to perhaps a touch of offensive. Definitely more offensive than before.
> 
> PAF was never a walkover, but now its going to be a pain in the rear for IAF.
> 
> Soon we might just hear: "Agar Eph Thirty Phyep Hota"



Pakistan's defence future lies in integration with China. In the longer term, a Chinese jet, whatever its limitations compared to Western counterparts may be, will be better from that perspective. A future acquisition of a Fifth Gen fighter will likely be a Chinese one and anything coming out of Project AZM will likely either be a joint effort between the two countries or have strong Chinese input. 

There is a question as to whether it would be better for Pakistan to have prolonged this purchase and instead purchased a more advance platform closer to the 2030s. I will leave the technical merits of that discussion up to the experts here, but there is certainly an urgency with the belligerency of Modi's India, the acquisition of the s-400 and the general modernization drive happening in the Indian military.

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## HRK

KT-1C said:


> What will this jet add to PAF what advantage does it have that JF-17 doesn't?


- payload 
- additional numbers to replace legacy Mirage-III & IV much faster then locally produce JF-17

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## MastanKhan

Goenitz said:


> @MastanKhan
> Do you liek this development Sir?



Hi,

Off course I do.

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## Raja Porus

The number is exactly 25.
Might be a couple of weeks old.

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## MastanKhan

imadul said:


> The news was going round for some time...
> This is reported in july by defenseworld.com
> 
> That also means JF-17 Block 3 lags is some aspects. It is not getting RD-93MA which shall give JF-17 Block 3 more TWI, combat range, and increased payload.
> 
> Once RD-93MA is ready, JF-17 with some redesigning of airframe would be a much respected 4.5 gen fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China Could Hand Over 36 J-10C Jets to Pakistan in 2021
> 
> 
> Pakistan will reportedly receive 36 Chengdu J-10C multirole fighters from China by the end of this year. On Monday, House for Strategic & International Affairs (HSIA) posted on Twitter, “Pakistan is set to receive 36 J-10C semi-stealth, 4.5 gen advanced fighter Jets from China by the end of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defenseworld.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *China Could Hand Over 36 J-10C Jets to Pakistan in 2021*
> MoD
> Pakistan will reportedly receive 36 Chengdu J-10C multirole fighters from China by the end of this year.
> On Monday, House for Strategic & International Affairs (HSIA) posted on Twitter, _“Pakistan is set to receive 36 J-10C semi-stealth, 4.5 gen advanced fighter Jets from China by the end of 2021.”_
> The information has not been confirmed by the defense ministries of China or Pakistan.
> As per 2020 reports, high-level government officials from Islamabad were in Talks with China over the procurement of PL-10 and PL-15 missiles, as well as J-10 jets that are often compared with the American F-16s.
> *During Shaheen-9 joint air exercises held in January 2021 which saw participation of these two countries, China’s J-10C and J-11B fighters simulated India's Rafale and Su-30 jets respectively in mock battles.* Air Forces from both sides focused on_ “large scale confrontation, including large scale aerial battles and use of forces in mass and close-quarters aerial support.”_ More than 200 sorties were conducted by both sides, to boost combat capabilities in learning from each other.
> 
> Beijing has been trying to hardsell its J-10C and J-11B fighters to Pakistan whose air force has shown preference for the latest version of the F-16 jets. A Chinese expert told state media after Shaheen-9 that *many aspects of the J-10C mid-sized fighter jet, including the size, aerodynamic characteristics, aviation, weapon systems and overall combat capability are comparable to the Indian Air Force (IAF)’s Rafale*.
> 
> Powered by a Russian engine (Lyulka Saturn AL-31FN) giving it a maximum static thrust of approximately 123 kN, the single-engine tail-less canard delta wing J-10C features fly-by-wire flight controls and sports an AESA fire control radar. It is made of composite materials for high strength and lower weight. China has developed a brand new engine, WS-10, to replace the Russian ones.
> The aircraft's internal armament consists of a Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23 twin-barrel cannon, located underneath the port side of the intake. Other weaponry and equipment is mounted externally on 11 hardpoints, to which 6,000 kg of either missiles and bombs, drop-tanks containing fuel, or other equipment such as avionics pods can be attached.
> 
> Air-to-air missiles deployed may include short-range air-to-air missiles such as the PL-8 and PL-10, medium-range radar-guided air-to-air missiles such as the PL-12 and PL-15, unguided and precision guided munitions such as laser-guided bombs, air-to-surface missile such as KD-88, anti-ship missiles such as the YJ-91A and anti-radiation missiles such as the YJ-91.



Hi,

The JF-17 BLK 3* DOES NOT lag in anything*---. But it has to go thru the *INTEGRATION PROCESS*---*pilot training*---which is time consuming.

That is the reason J10's have been procured---. The J10's weapons systems have already been integrated---the first batch of pilots already trained---and in the meantime the JF17 BLK 3 gets integrated with its advance technology package which will take sometime.

Major weapons procurement is a very ling process---. On this very forum some 5 plus years ago i stated about PAF getting the J10's.

Many stated that it would never happen---and now you have the answer---.

I had also stated that Pak military does not go beyond the technology curve to get something just to show it off that they have it.

In years to come---there will be another major surprise to come---a few of you stated that would never happen---and it will happen. By that time it will not be a surprise---.


alee92nawaz said:


> J-11B was pitched to PAF as well. I think PAF is happy with the capability of J-10C's engine and it's bvr. *Especially after the news that PLAAF has removed flankers from Taiwan zone and have places J-10s*
> 
> J-11 or a similar flanker.



Hi,

You are mis-informed---paf was a part of the development of the J10 for what it is today.

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## maverick1977

Where are the folks who were laughing at me when i comfirmed in July that Pakistan is getting J10Cs… eat your heart out

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## SQ8

Mav3rick said:


> It is not just about the Missile(s) but the SPECTRA suite on Rafale which sets the French jets apart from most competition. With SPECTRA, the Jets *virtually become stealth and do not appear on enemy sensors.*


No they do not. That is pure overhype and blatant lie regarding the capabilities of that system. It is an excellent integrated EW system but every PAF radar will pick up the Rafale Spectra or not. In some case turning the Spectra on will actually put the Rafale on some really nead ELINT systems that sit on the ground as part of PAF ADGE.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It'll be interesting to see how much distance the PAF will put between the J-10CEs and the public, journalists, etc. Though an export variant, the J-10C is both a sensitive piece of tech and one of China's workhorse fighters. Sure, we might catch the engine type and some other details, but I suspect the PAF will keep a shroud over this fighter for most of its service tenure.
> 
> It would also be hilarious if the PAF gets the F-16V because the US would ask that it too be kept under a shroud. So, imagine, two sensitive fighters from two opposing powers kept under a shroud in one country. Only one party (PAF) truly knows "what's up" when comparing both. @SQ8


Don’t think that is ever coming to pass but the result would be the same as with the block-52s today. High security, passes cleared through the US military attaché and so on.

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## ARMalik

alphapak said:


> Man I am not obseesed with the F16's but there are peeople who still think U.S will sell F16's to Pak. Lol



Don't worry, you will get some goods news about F-16s as well in the next few months.

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## CriticalThought

SQ8 said:


> No they do not. That is pure overhype and blatant lie regarding the capabilities of that system. It is an excellent integrated EW system but every PAF radar will pick up the Rafale Spectra or not. In some case turning the Spectra on will actually put the Rafale on some really nead ELINT systems that sit on the ground as part of PAF ADGE.



SPECTRA is integrated with the physical shape of Rafale. And the Rafale comes with software capable of planning the optimal path to avoid threats while maximizing its abilities. What I am concerned about is if there is a networked mode for SPECTRA wherein a formation reinforces the active cancellation between elements. That is some super scary stuff.


MastanKhan said:


> ARAZ---Pakistan don't have funds for type 054
> 
> Araz---Pakistan does not have money for the submarine---
> 
> araz---Pakistan does not have money to pay for J10's---it bring nothing new to the table---.



Pakistan is planning to make an IMF employee a virtual viceroy by handing over the central bank. What use will be the type 054, the submarine, and J10 if Mr. Viceroy refuses to pay the salaries of officers and he cannot be challenged in Supreme Court or ousted by the Prime Minister?

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## MastanKhan

JawadKKhan said:


> Waiting to see "JS-10" !



It is a* Joint Strike 10*

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## CriticalThought

SQ8 said:


> No they do not. That is pure overhype and blatant lie regarding the capabilities of that system. It is an excellent integrated EW system but every PAF radar will pick up the Rafale Spectra or not. In some case turning the Spectra on will actually put the Rafale on some really nead ELINT systems that sit on the ground as part of PAF ADGE.
> 
> 
> Don’t think that is ever coming to pass but the result would be the same as with the block-52s today. High security, passes cleared through the US military attaché and so on.



Since I am not going to be able to reply for a while, just adding this.

One of those Indian idiots on PDF said India has paid for an enhanced SPECTRA that works in VHF/UHF range, i.e., with radio waves. For a long time I thought the French have ripped them off, until it hit me that a formation of Rafales can certainly act as receiver and can certainly use active cancellation against radar waves. This means even those anti-stealth radars would not be effective. I mean, this IS SUPER SCARY stuff. I hope PAF top brass aren't sleeping on the job.

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## MastanKhan

vi-va said:


> Anyone knew the cost?
> 
> *At €7.8B, Why Indian Rafale Jets Are ‘Double The Cost’ Than Egyptian Rafales?*
> *Rafale deal controversy*



Hi,

The French knew that India desperately needed the aircraft so simple as it sounds---they just charged more for the aircraft---.

India left itself nowhere to go.

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## StructE

Mav3rick said:


> It is not just about the Missile(s) but the SPECTRA suite on Rafale which sets the French jets apart from most competition. With SPECTRA, the Jets virtually become stealth and do not appear on enemy sensors.


If it was in the realm of possibility to achieve limited stealth by means of some electronic and or electromagnetic means why would nations spend hundreds of billions in developing actual stealth airframes, ram coatings and passive sensors, French are master of creating hype and up selling their mid-tier tech.

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## StructE

CriticalThought said:


> Since I am not going to be able to reply for a while, just adding this.
> 
> One of those Indian idiots on PDF said India has paid for an enhanced SPECTRA that works in VHF/UHF range, i.e., with radio waves. For a long time I thought the French have ripped them off, until it hit me that a formation of Rafales can certainly act as receiver and can certainly use active cancellation against radar waves. This means even those anti-stealth radars would not be effective. I mean, this IS SUPER SCARY stuff. I hope PAF top brass aren't sleeping on the job.


Active cancellation can be effective in cases where carefully planned mission has to deal with a single radar site, any current active cancelation system will fail miserably (as stealth) in dense environment where multiple ground based and airborne radars are in operation. So it has its value in knocking out Sam site, and this is about it. It is not stealth and do not give stealth advantage to a fighter, it is just a fancy way of jamming enemy radar.

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## Hex0maniac

Salza said:


> *First direct and official confirmation of J10C induction by PAF.*



that's a SR-71 moment where its name was accidentally changed from RS-71. We really have zero tolerance.


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

36 J10C welcomed addition

a) Delta Wing design
b) New Maneuvering , due to engine dynamics, comes handy in dog fight
c) BVR Capabilities 
d) Enhanced payload 

Certainly an enhancement

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## mingle

I am very happy the way things going for forces IA we will hear more news in near future

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## untitled

Are the jets coming with Chinese ejection seats? Don't think Martin-Baker would have been in the loop for this deal.


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## NA71

Now this is semi-official details.
First 36 will be delivered till April 2022, Numbers may go up to 50.

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## mingle

untitled said:


> Are the jets coming with Chinese ejection seats? Don't think Martin-Baker would have been in the loop for this deal.


Not sure but good guess would be MB

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## mingle

NA71 said:


> Now this is semi-official details.
> First 36 will be delivered till April 2022, Numbers may go up to 50.


As @Rafi mentioned 5 sqdns about 75-85 jets total light yrs ago old PDF Haris said about 75-85 J10 as his words our version will be at par Typhoon & Rafale

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## akramishaqkhan

mingle said:


> Not sure but good guess would be MB


I hope so.

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## mingle

akramishaqkhan said:


> I hope so.


Well we guess base on track record PAF trust MB


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## GumNaam

its not 2022 yet but indian media has already started suffering from severe bleeding from their rectal cavities... 😁 









Pakistan buys 25 China-made J-10C fighter jets in response to India’s Rafale


The J-10C aircraft were part of the Pak-China joint exercise last year, where experts from Pakistan had the opportunity to have a close look at the fighter jets




www.livemint.com













Pakistan confirms raising squadron of Chinese J-10C in response to India's Rafale jets


The J-10C is considered a capable workhorse of the Chinese air force, but it falls below the cutting-edge capabilities of the Rafale.




www.indiatoday.in

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## Pyara9

If true it's a Shame! Paf should of waited for J-31 latest and greatest 5gth gen we can buy. Anything J-10 offers we can get it in Jf-17 it just doesn't make sense. 

If Paf would of went with J-31 we would of been the 2nd or 3rd county in Asia to have 5th gen stealth aircraft and a true qualitative edge over India.

My 2 cents

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## Polestar 2

GriffinsRule said:


> Same reason why people including me were against J-10 in PAF. Same era fighter with pretty much the same capability and hence little need to add another type to fleet.


You opinion carries little weight. China, the maker and creator of both aircraft, making the decision that counts by not inducting JF-17 which deems much inferior and totally outclass by J-10.

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## NA71

mingle said:


> As @Rafi mentioned 5 sqdns about 75-85 jets total light yrs ago old PDF Haris said about 75-85 J10 as his words our version will be at par Typhoon & Rafale



She says, " as of now...lets see"

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## ARMalik

Pyara9 said:


> If true it's a Shame! Paf should of waited for J-31 latest and greatest 5gth gen we can buy. Anything J-10 offers we can get it in Jf-17 it just doesn't make sense.
> 
> If Paf would of went with J-31 we would of been the 2nd or 3rd county in Asia to have 5th gen stealth aircraft and a true qualitative edge over India.
> 
> My 2 cents



Patience bro ...... J-31 will be coming as well. Just wait for about 2-years.


GriffinsRule said:


> Same reason why people including me were against J-10 in PAF. Same era fighter with pretty much the same capability and hence little need to add another type to fleet.



As mentioned, J-10s Pakistan is getting are HIGHLY MODIFIED versions. There will provide enhanced capabilities related IRST, EW, processing power, payload, and so forth, etc.

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## Big_bud

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 804328




Doctor! The patient has gone blue! We might loose him! He's getting no oxygen to the brain!


Le patient: JS-10 ayen gy! JS-10 Uraen gy! 

Jokes apart, he is an interior minister though! Im sure this is an authentic confirmation!

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## Ghessan

Trango Towers said:


> I hope the PAF cheif comes in jf17 block 3....at the head of the formation and not an f16.
> 
> Be proud of what you make and it will send a message of where jf17 is to the whole world especially our constipated southern neighbour



your post has nothing to do with what i said.

if air chief leads the fly past in JF-17, who would not like it?


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## Reichmarshal

Ppl still doubting PAF n questioning the viability of inducting j 10 when we have the jf 17 program.....n at the same time doubting the capability of the thunder.......
They all need to understand that PAF has some 200-250 ac to replace, n if ur thinking that it all can be done just by inducting thunders then ur badly mistaken as to replace them all it would take around a decade, at the current rate of our production.
So PAF needed a helping hand n j 10 is one solution. Their is still a huge possibility of PAF inducting a twin engine heavy ac very soon in addition to j 10 n jf 17.

Try to understand one thing, one thing Pakistan does not have is time, as we r steering down the barrel n with our ever-changing/ fast-evolving geopolitical situation. I forsee that we will be going into a war any time between now n 2024.

Baki ALLAH knows best

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## akramishaqkhan

Reichmarshal said:


> Ppl still doubting PAF n questioning the viability of inducting j 10 when we have the jf 17 program.....n at the same time doubting the capability of the thunder.......
> They all need to understand that PAF has some 200-250 ac to replace, n if ur thinking that it all can be done just by inducting thunders than ur badly mistaken as to replace they all it would take around a decade to place they at the current rate of our production.
> So PAF needed a helping hand n j 10 is one solution. Their is still a huge possibility of PAF inducting a twin engine heavy ac very soon in addition to j 10 n jf 17.
> 
> Try to understand that one thing Pakistan does not have is time as we r steering down the barrel n with how fast our geopolitical situation is evolving. I forsee that we will going into a war any time from now till 2024.
> 
> Baki ALLAH knows best


Agreed war is on the horizon and is only a matter of time. May Allah protect our nation from the snakes within. The ones outside I have no doubt we can handle.

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## Polestar 2

Reichmarshal said:


> Ppl still doubting PAF n questioning the viability of inducting j 10 when we have the jf 17 program.....n at the same time doubting the capability of the thunder.......
> They all need to understand that PAF has some 200-250 ac to replace, n if ur thinking that it all can be done just by inducting thunders than ur badly mistaken as to replace they all it would take around a decade to place they at the current rate of our production.
> So PAF needed a helping hand n j 10 is one solution. Their is still a huge possibility of PAF inducting a twin engine heavy ac very soon in addition to j 10 n jf 17.
> 
> Try to understand that one thing Pakistan does not have is time as we r steering down the barrel n with how fast our geopolitical situation is evolving. I forsee that we will going into a war any time from now till 2024.
> 
> Baki ALLAH knows best


JF-17 was conceived as a sanction proof fighter (after experience sanction by US in the past) which main purpose is to replace Mirage III while possess certain capabilities near F-16 as PAF has vast experience dealing with F-16. At the same time due to budget constraint. It needs to be price friendly and ease of mass production. A lightweight multi purpose fighter was born.

While J-10 being conceived in first place , is to beat F-16 of ROCAF in especially in area of air superiority. It is an agile fighter bend to be far better than F-16 in all aspect, hence in an area of 4.5th gen , same class as Rafale, Typhoon 2000, Gripen with emphasize in careful design treatment to reduced RCS, super agility, high thrust, high speed. 


Both fighter by PAF and PLAAF have different mission profile when conceived both aircraft project.

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## mingle

Big_bud said:


> Doctor! The patient has gone blue! We might loose him! He's getting no oxygen to the brain!
> 
> 
> Le patient: JS-10 ayen gy! JS-10 Uraen gy!
> 
> Jokes apart, he is an interior minister though! Im sure this is an authentic confirmation!


He was taking about parade thing as interior minister where he mentioned about this event as well

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## Raja Porus

akramishaqkhan said:


> Agreed war is on the horizon and is only a matter of time. May Allah protect our nation from the snakes within. The ones outside I have no doubt we can handle.





Reichmarshal said:


> forsee that we will going into a war any time from now till 2024


May I ask why so? Respectfully

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## Polestar 2

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Exactly just as induction of VT4s doesn't mean that Alkhalid is a useless piece of equipment.
> We just couldn't produce enough of them; both due to economic constraints as well as limited production capabilities.
> However like VT4, J10 does bring in some new technologies and improvements.


That is not the point. Point is a lot of Pakistanis think J-10 has little improvement over JF-17 or even no different in combat improvement despite the fact, JF-17 is a lightweight multi role fighter while J-10 are medium weight class fighter with improvement in thrust, performance, payload and bigger airframe for better avionics. Of course, the cost for J-10 is much higher too.

If by such theory, all PLAAF needs is J-20 and all other fighter planes can retired now.


----------



## alee92nawaz

truthseeker2010 said:


> At most i would say its not J-11.


Definitely not J-11. Could be something similar. Rumours by fanboys also indicate of some F-16 upgrades


----------



## SQ8

CriticalThought said:


> Since I am not going to be able to reply for a while, just adding this.
> 
> One of those Indian idiots on PDF said India has paid for an enhanced SPECTRA that works in VHF/UHF range, i.e., with radio waves. For a long time I thought the French have ripped them off, until it hit me that a formation of Rafales can certainly act as receiver and can certainly use active cancellation against radar waves. This means even those anti-stealth radars would not be effective. I mean, this IS SUPER SCARY stuff. I hope PAF top brass aren't sleeping on the job.


Being integrated with the airframe of the aircraft may provide it an advantage(just as AIDEWS is within the block-52s) but it doesnt render it invisible. 
Coordinating EW is something they are capable of but that is against singular emitters so they could focus on a targeting radar of a SAM system and reduce the range it can engage them at. 
Against a coordinated ADGE it doesnt work as well. My concern is those Rafale's using the low level range and flexibility of the Hammer AGMs to blow holes in Pakistani AD whilst making PAF Interceptors move away with Meteors to create a door in for follow on IAF strikes a few minutes behind.

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## Raja Porus

SQ8 said:


> My concern is those Rafale's using the low level range and flexibility of the Hammer AGMs to blow holes in Pakistani AD whilst making PAF Interceptors move away with Meteors to create a door in for follow on IAF strikes a few minutes behind.


Dear tge time when PDF used to discuss such things is gone, unfortunately.

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## Trango Towers

SQ8 said:


> Being integrated with the airframe of the aircraft may provide it an advantage(just as AIDEWS is within the block-52s) but it doesnt render it invisible.
> Coordinating EW is something they are capable of but that is against singular emitters so they could focus on a targeting radar of a SAM system and reduce the range it can engage them at.
> Against a coordinated ADGE it doesnt work as well. My concern is those Rafale's using the low level range and flexibility of the Hammer AGMs to blow holes in Pakistani AD whilst making PAF Interceptors move away with Meteors to create a door in for follow on IAF strikes a few minutes behind.


If you can think of this - do u think no one at PAF has not worked out tactics to counter. This game of cat and moses will always exist


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## Ghessan

this new shift arising with China taking over the region with its doctrine and Pakistan an obvious and active player...

we were required to follow a new stance and play the part that is the need of the hour. it would be the time that will come, in my opinion, Pakistan will play a part in the region like Israel and there will be a backing from the giant who soon will challenge the world with the financial influence. 

only hurdle is IMF for which we have to work real hard and a lot.

Chinese are doing their homework to fight the economic war that US is going to impose on them. US realize, while busy in wars they have delayed things by giving China couple of good decades to stand, there is no stopping to it hence the only front is economy to attack. 

There must be a strategic alliance talked of between China and Pakistan and is well defined and understood to which this new induction is the part of and hopefully we will see a lot coming in several ways. 

the thing that is most crucial about this induction is the availability of parts and spare besides emergency induction of assets during war. Pakistan affected by the sanctions during past wars, this time we will enjoy something else. 

the other thing is Pakistan is not in a position to rapidly up the numbers on the basis of JF-17 only. we need dollars for that which is standing at 178 too expensive to buy. it is easy to procure an asset and pay later and we will not stop at a squadron or two, this acquisition will be big.

so in my opinion, the question of comparing J-10 to JF-17, their capabilities, new asset, favoring this or that, sets a side.

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## Salza

Indian media finally picking up the news after Indians on twitters cited this thread on pdf.









Pakistan's New Squadron Of Fighter Jets To "Counter" India's Rafale


Pakistan has acquired a full squadron of 25 Chinese multirole J-10C fighter jets in response to India's purchase of Rafale aircraft, Pakistan's Interior Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed said on Wednesday.




www.ndtv.com


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## Trailer23

Salza said:


> Indian media finally picking up the news after Indians on twitters cited this thread on pdf.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan's New Squadron Of Fighter Jets To "Counter" India's Rafale
> 
> 
> Pakistan has acquired a full squadron of 25 Chinese multirole J-10C fighter jets in response to India's purchase of Rafale aircraft, Pakistan's Interior Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed said on Wednesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ndtv.com


India Today beat them to it yesterday right after Sheikh sahab's Press Conference.


Trailer23 said:


> News, seems to have reached East of Pakistan - and i'm not talking about our friends in China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan confirms raising squadron of Chinese J-10C in response to India's Rafale jets*​
> *The J-10C is considered a capable workhorse of the Chinese air force, but it falls below the cutting-edge capabilities of the Rafale.*
> 
> *Ankit Kumar
> December 29, 2021*
> 
> Putting the speculations to rest, the government of Pakistan has confirmed the acquisition of at least 25 Chinese J-10C fighter jets for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Pakistan's interior minister Sheikh Rashid told reporters in Rawalpindi on Wednesday that a squadron of 25 China-made jets would participate in a fly-past on 23 March. The minister touted the Chinese jets as "an answer to India's Rafale jets".
> 
> However, the minister misarticulated the name of the jets repeatedly during his interaction, referring to the jets as "Chinese JS-10". While rumours of Pakistan acquiring Chinese jets have been doing rounds for a long time, a big question mark remains over the claims of the Chinese jets competence against the advanced French Rafale.
> 
> Although China has been using the J-10C multirole fighter aircraft to replace its much older J-7E fighters at the People's Liberation Army Air Force's (PLAAF's) brigades, it relied on its much-advanced J-20 stealth jets when it came to monitoring of the crucial Taiwan Strait and East China Sea.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1462021415276670987
> The J-10C is considered a capable workhorse of the Chinese air force, but it falls below the cutting-edge capabilities of the Rafale. Commentary in Chinese state media often looks to place the mid-sized fighter jet closer to the Rafale but Rafale's integrated architecture, superior sensors and overall combat capabilities set it apart.
> 
> With a distinct advantage in thrust and superior short-range missile, Rafale scores over the J-10C with better kill probability during Within Visual Range (WVR) combat. The combination of RBE2 AESA radar with the Meteor missile in Rafale provides a distinct advantage in the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) combat as well. Rafale's electronic warfare suite is also believed to be the most capable in its class.
> 
> The J-10C jets have been sighted during the China-Pakistan joint air exercises recently. Weeks before the formal announcements, the J-10C model was spotted in the pictures of the Pakistan Air Force Chief's office.
> 
> The Imran Khan Government's intentions to acquire the Chinese jets have already been questioned by the opposition. "I don't think the J-10C is as good as the Rafale also. We should have invested this money in building Project Azm and enhancing JF-17 capabilities," Dr Afnan Ullah Khan had posted on Twitter, earlier this month.


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## Pappa Alpha

All branches of Pak armed forces are getting new equipment at a rapid pace even with current state of economy. The higher ups must be predicting war before 2030.

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## Mav3rick

serenity said:


> There is no J-10D version available for export yet. What Pakistan bought is probably J-10CE but more tailored for PAF. This doesn't mean it is a better version of J-10CE or a tailored to be cheaper version. We don't know much about the purchase.
> 
> J-10D was rumored on Chinese forums as either something that was speculated to be a PAF version of J-10CE or as a new block upgrade from J-10C.
> 
> It is very lucky PAF can train against Rafale and possibly even gain some sensitive insight although I doubt Qatar would allow this even if it is friends with friends this sort of revealing everything is rarely done or done with a high price. Still being able to learn some things about Rafale is good for PAF. The Indians have best version of Rafale which Egypt and Qatar do not use.



J-10C was inducted in 2018 which means that development started many years ago, similarly, the next iteration must be just round the corner as it's been over 3 years already. Maybe a better engine, bigger AESA, integrated sensors and a more natural fusion etc. Anyway......

I have read that our Pilots have trained on Qatari Rafale and hence would be aware of the combat capabilities. If we can plan a few exercises with UAE (once it acquires the Rafale, the most recent iteration), we would have a much better picture.


SQ8 said:


> No they do not. That is pure overhype and blatant lie regarding the capabilities of that system. It is an excellent integrated EW system but every PAF radar will pick up the Rafale Spectra or not. In some case turning the Spectra on will actually put the Rafale on some really nead ELINT systems that sit on the ground as part of PAF ADGE.



I hope that it is indeed a lie; however, I would rather rest easy after testing the system than be complacent and ignorant. Plus, we have a grand experience with Mirages and most rate the Mirages on par, if not better in some aspects, to the F-16's which means that the Rafale would be in the class of F-35s with less reliance on stealth.


----------



## Deino

Pyara9 said:


> If true it's a Shame! Paf should of waited for J-31 latest and greatest 5gth gen we can buy. Anything J-10 offers we can get it in Jf-17 it just doesn't make sense.
> 
> If Paf would of went with J-31 we would of been the 2nd or 3rd county in Asia to have 5th gen stealth aircraft and a true qualitative edge over India.
> 
> My 2 cents



Maybe, but the point is, the J-31 (in fact not existent) or the J-35 won't be available until later the dacade and given that it now is a PLA project, I'm sure it will take even longer before it is available for export.



ARMalik said:


> Patience bro ...... J-31 will be coming as well. Just wait for about 2-years.
> ...



Never, the FC-31 - PLEASE: There is no J-31! - was proposed as an export fighter long ago, and did not proceed, so even if Pakistan will order it today, it will at least take 5-7 years (similar to the J-20) from real prototype maiden flight to service entry and again, since it is now is a PLA naval project, I'm sure it won't be available in a customised land-based export variant before 2030-2035.


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## Mav3rick

StructE said:


> If it was in the realm of possibility to achieve limited stealth by means of some electronic and or electromagnetic means why would nations spend hundreds of billions in developing actual stealth airframes, ram coatings and passive sensors, French are master of creating hype and up selling their mid-tier tech.



I do not trust the words of the French, I trust the words of my own pilots who love their Mirages and hence it is a testament to the French aviation industry.

Besides, what exactly is the purpose of stealth? To protect the attacker from defensive measures, right? What if the EW suite on a Jet performs so supremely that it outclasses all enemy counter measures, would it not effectively perform the same function? I read somewhere that F-22 does some of those tricks too, to the point where an F-16 pilot could visually spot the Jet and yet it was not visible on any of the electronic devices.

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## Stealth

Mav3rick said:


> Yes, exactly......especially when Imran Khan was so considerate with his Dharna; right?
> 
> On a serious note, J-10C against Rafale!!! I wonder how good the J-10C are and how they would perform against Rafale, Spectra and the French BVR.



Will perform same as PAF performed against Bkhat Airforce susu-shit-30 in 2019 27 Feb…

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## Deino

Trango Towers said:


> *Thrust vectoring* on the j10C .. super maneuverability





aziqbal said:


> J10C with WS10B TVC showed what a marvel of modern engineering it was at the Zhuhai airshow in 2018
> 
> it showed Chinese engineering had reached the best Western counter parts
> 
> PAF pilots will love the TVC on this aircraft



No, so far only one single J-10B testbed was fitted with the TVC-variant ... so why again these wet-dreams, Pakistan might get an as yet not operational TVC-variant?

In some other groups, some are already wet-dreaming of a WS-15-powered super-variant!  Guys ... stay realistic, then the disappointment is not too great afterwards.

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## truthseeker2010

Deino said:


> No, so far only one single J-10B testbed was fitted with the TVC-variant ... so why again these wet-dreams, Pakistan might get an as yet not operational TVC-variant?
> 
> In some other groups, some are already wet-dreaming of a WS-15-powered super-variant!  Guys ... stay realistic, then the disappointment is not too great afterwards.



After going through different military forums, i see that battles on internet these days are more hi-tech than they are in reality.

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## Zephyrus



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## Talon



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## vi-va

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476417405714792450

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## Deino

Zephyrus said:


> View attachment 804585




Nice image, but just to point out and not to make any false hopes, this is NOT a PAF bird, but just a regular PLAAF one.

Anyway, cannot wait to see the first J-10C in PAF colours.

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## GriffinsRule

ARMalik said:


> Patience bro ...... J-31 will be coming as well. Just wait for about 2-years.
> 
> 
> As mentioned, J-10s Pakistan is getting are HIGHLY MODIFIED versions. There will provide enhanced capabilities related IRST, EW, processing power, payload, and so forth, etc.


Dear, there is no reason to believe they are highly modified from the base J-10C, ie if the news is true.

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## ARMalik

GriffinsRule said:


> Dear, there is no reason to believe they are highly modified from the base J-10C, ie if the news is true.



Nothing official but lots of unofficial chatter from reliable sources.


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## Deino

vi-va said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476417405714792450




Forget that guy ... he is a nice finder of good imagery but completely unreliable in terms of putting them into the correct context. These J-10Cs standing at CAC were by all I know spotted in April and as such were delivered to PLAAF units this year.

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## Ghessan

@Tipu7


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## NA71

Deino said:


> Nice image, but just to point out and not to make any false hopes, this is NOT a PAF bird, but just a regular PLAAF one.
> 
> Anyway, cannot wait to see the first J-10C in PAF colours.


Sir, according to Chinese Friends, same birds are being given to PAF, even they would have some additional features.


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## Deino

NA71 said:


> Sir, according to Chinese Friends, same birds are being given to PAF, even they would have some additional features.




I know, but you surely know my nit-picking habit to at best try to avoid confusing and over-hyping regular PLAAF images as what they are not. I think it is more than an established fact for all (all, but some fan boys who still think of WS-10C-TVC powered super variants) that those for Pakistan are more or less from the same production batch and therefore specification. Surely they will feature certain PAF-related gimmicks but I don't expect any dramatic differences.

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## Trailer23

J-10C ke khabar suntay he IAF ka aik MiG-21 aaj gir para.

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## Vapnope

Trailer23 said:


> J-10C ke khabar suntay he IAF ka aik MiG-21 aaj gir para.


Again?


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## Trailer23

Vapnope said:


> Again?


Again...
IAF MiG-21 crashes in Jaisalmer


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## Invictus01

Trailer23 said:


> Again...
> IAF MiG-21 crashes in Jaisalmer



That's an old news my friend
I believe you got a bit too carried away

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## Riz



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## The Eagle

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> This is what the Interior Minister Shaikh Rasheed said in comments lasting 37 seconds:
> 
> _Meh aap ka shukriya ada karta hun aur sari qaum ko yakeen dilana chahta hun._​​_Batain log kar rahay hain._​​_23 March ki meh nay un say request ki hai, kay 30 March kar dain, kyu kay bohot VIP guest ah rahay hain._​​_Aur, pehli dafa Pakistan meh JS-10 ki flying past ho rahi hai._​​_Rafale kay muqablay meh Pakistan Air Force jo hai, flying past karnay lagi hai JS-10 Cheen kay jahaaz say._​​_*Yeh Rafale kay torr meh hum nay*, JS-10 jo hai, wo aik poora 25 ka squadron flying past karay ga._​​_Aur, hum apnay diffa say bi ghafil nahi. Hamari azeem afwaaj hai._​



Honestly, all of his presser about J-10 sounded like PLAAF will participate in Pakistan Day Parade on 23rd March, 2022. Only part where it points towards J-10 induction into PAF is that he mentioned it as a counter to Rafale. Otherwise, I was about to anger many members but then decided not to. Not to mention that J-10 wouldn't be here for the first time.

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## Trango Towers

Deino said:


> No, so far only one single J-10B testbed was fitted with the TVC-variant ... so why again these wet-dreams, Pakistan might get an as yet not operational TVC-variant?
> 
> In some other groups, some are already wet-dreaming of a WS-15-powered super-variant!  Guys ... stay realistic, then the disappointment is not too great afterwards.


I read it in an article that it's standard on a j10c...and why use terms like wet dreams??? What's with you?


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## The Eagle

Trango Towers said:


> I read it in an article that it's standard on a j10c...and why use terms like wet dreams??? What's with you?



TVC isn't standard at all.

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## Trailer23

Riz said:


> View attachment 804598


That is an impressive looking looking bird, enough hardpoint to bomb someone to kingdom come.

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## Hyde

Same news was reported by Pakistani media 2 weeks prior to Sheikh Rasheed’a statement. The news is how it will fly past in 3 months


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## Deino

Trango Towers said:


> I read it in an article that it's standard on a j10c...and why use terms like wet dreams??? What's with you?



I think you misread my post as a comment against you, that was never my intention. I'm only - and in fact quite strictly - against such "Wet-dreams" - and nothing else they are - to expect that the PAF-variant will be some sort of super-duper improved J-10C using the WS-10C with TVC or even the WS-15, these are IMO wet-dreams.

Hope this clarified your misunderstanding.

Plesae read thsi too:

(4) PAF J10CP - will perform flypast on 23rd March , 2022 l Shaikh Rasheed Ahmed | Page 28 | Pakistan Defence

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## aliyusuf

Deino said:


> I think you misread my post as a comment against you, that was never my intention. I'm only - and in fact quite strictly - against such "Wet-dreams" - and nothing else they are - to expect that the PAF-variant will be some sort of super-duper improved J-10C using the WS-10C with TVC or even the WS-15, these are IMO wet-dreams.
> 
> Hope this clarified your misunderstanding.


A more apt term from an incumbent moderator would have been "wishful thinking". Somehow "wet-dream" seems a bit harsh and beneath your stature.

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## Riz

Deino said:


> I think you misread my post as a comment against you, that was never my intention. I'm only - and in fact quite strictly - against such "Wet-dreams" - and nothing else they are - to expect that the PAF-variant will be some sort of super-duper improved J-10C using the WS-10C with TVC or even the WS-15, these are IMO wet-dreams.
> 
> Hope this clarified your misunderstanding.


What is the update on J-10C CFTs ? J-10s will get CFT in future or not ?


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## aziqbal

one thing about the J10C is that it will have a quite a few commonality between J10C and JF17 Block III 

this will be great combination for both pilots and technicians on the ground plus the weapons

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## Ali_Baba

The purpose of the recent acquisitions is of course to increase military capability but also build infrastructure in Pakistan that can better interoperate with mainstream Chinese systems.

I do think PAF will ramp up J10C's quickly as the lines between China/India/USA are becoming more defined - and the PAF will want to rely less on its F16s due to the China/India/USA standoff.

but where does the USA - China rivalary end up - at some point it will turn hot from cold - esp if the Americans start seeing they are losing the new cold war and at that point Pakistan will simply become collateral damage with little regard.

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## donkeykong

How does J-10C compare with J-16D?


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## Polestar 2

donkeykong said:


> How does J-10C compare with J-16D?


J-10C eat J-16 for lunch.

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## TNT

The Eagle said:


> No problem Sir. My intention was about something untold/kept away and not the news of J-10. The intention was about white hat Data which has to remain untold unless source allows. TNT then confirmed as well that source don't want it to go public yet. Someone has to say this and Shaikh Sahib was the perfect man for the job. Does anyone remember him saying similar thing years ago? He is the man to deliver message without fear and above all, Pindi is his constituency as well. 😂



The thing is, usually a picture can be traced to the source and it affects credibility of the officer working. For example an officer working on xyz jet and its pics get released, then its known that the officer released it and it affects him. So in many cases even if news is out, they still cant make stuff public.

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## The Eagle

Dil Pakistan said:


> In another.....



Can we please keep "other" out of discussion? We shall discuss as per our knowledge/info/analysis without relying on an internet source with alter egos.

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## Deino

aliyusuf said:


> A more apt term from an incumbent moderator would have been "wishful thinking". Somehow "wet-dream" seems a bit harsh and beneath your stature.



If I offended anyone with this harsh words, I apologise, but at lesat IMO a wet-dream is something that is so much eagerly hoped for, but plain impossible and taht's exactly a WS-10C- or even WS-15-powered J-10C.



Dil Pakistan said:


> In another.........




Plain and simple and surely again rated as arrogance: Then is impossible and in fact it shows only the incompetence and lack of knowledge of this certain member.

There won't be a WS-10C powered J-10C for Pakistan, since so for NO J-10C uses this engine, not those in PLAAF service, not even a testbed and as such it is in fact ridiculous - or again a wet dream only - to think the PAF will get out of the blue a variant with a not yet tested engine on that type.

Sorry guys, maybe it's some sort of cultural difference and therefore again I apologise, but some ideas are so much off that it already hurts.




Riz said:


> What is the update on J-10C CFTs ? J-10s will get CFT in future or not ?




Again NO! So far we haven't seen any J-10C with CFTs and by all accounts these wind-tunnel tests have been either unsuccessful or not worth the efforts, so, NO, there is IMO no chance for CFTs on any J-10C and even lesser for those for Pakistan.

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## The Eagle

TNT said:


> The thing is, usually a picture can be traced to the source and it affects credibility of the officer working. For example an officer working on xyz jet and its pics get released, then its known that the officer released it and it affects him. So in many cases even if news is out, they still cant make stuff public.



I always emphasized on it. The stuff shouldn't come out like that having family relations or close friends etc. Thorough gentlemen/professionals choose to not to be in public spotlight.

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## Deino

donkeykong said:


> How does J-10C compare with J-16D?




J-10C is a single engined medium weight multirole fighter, J-16D is a dedicated EW-variant of a twin-engined heavy-weight fighter. It's like comparing a small apple against an orange

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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> Plain and simple and surely again rated as arrogance: Then is impossible and in fact it shows only the incompetence and lack of knowledge of this certain member.
> 
> There won't be a WS-10C powered J-10C for Pakistan, since so for NO J-10C uses this engine, not those in PLAAF service, not even a testbed and as such it is in fact ridiculous - or again a wet dream only - to think the PAF will get out of the blue a variant with a not yet tested engine on that type.
> 
> Sorry guys, maybe it's some sort of cultural difference and therefore again I apologise, but some ideas are so much off that it already hurts.



I don't want to sound rude but most of the times, Forums created on the basis of self promotion, business attracting & avenge upon others are nothing less than click baits that attracts audience so that it remains in flow. To achieve such a spotlight; kind of crazy claims or one can say that like nonsense being thrown. If anyone then objects, the emperor takes action. We here try to maintain the quality of discussion and luckily, we still have a majority that not just denies but counter the silly claims if made.


donkeykong said:


> How does J-10C compare with J-16D?



Far different unlike having multiple IDs. 

How on earth you even think to compare such two different class fighters?

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## Trango Towers

Deino said:


> I think you misread my post as a comment against you, that was never my intention. I'm only - and in fact quite strictly - against such "Wet-dreams" - and nothing else they are - to expect that the PAF-variant will be some sort of super-duper improved J-10C using the WS-10C with TVC or even the WS-15, these are IMO wet-dreams.
> 
> Hope this clarified your misunderstanding.
> 
> Plesae read thsi too:
> 
> (4) PAF J10CP - will perform flypast on 23rd March , 2022 l Shaikh Rasheed Ahmed | Page 28 | Pakistan Defence


Thanks bhai. 
I actually read an article yesterday comparing jf17 block 3 to j10c. There were very electric about thrust vectoring. Additionally, we mustn't count our chickens until they arrive. 

Have a nice day

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## ziaulislam

Deino said:


> Again IMO close to impossible. More likely would be another Y-9 EW-Type, Y-20 transports or helicopters, but no Flankers.


Whats the consensus on dry thrust & wet thrust of ws10 latest series?
I know alot of info is difficult to varify


salarsikander said:


> What will be the origin of the powerplant ?
> 
> I am more interested in that


Defintively chinese
China has not bought russian ones since 2017

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## Jungibaaz

Some of the newer members might not have been around PDF to remember the SAM leak controversy we had here some years back. It pays to be cautious now.



Trango Towers said:


> Thanks bhai.
> I actually read an article yesterday comparing jf17 block 3 to j10c. There were very electric about thrust vectoring. Additionally, we mustn't count our chickens until they arrive.
> 
> Have a nice day


I’d say forget thrust vectoring, nowhere in the world is it employed by in-service single engine fighter aircraft. Nor is it that useful, or worth the extra weight and complexity.

What’s far more important on the engine front is sufficient power and reliability. Although we don’t know the MTBO, pressure ratios, thrust specs... the fact that WS-10 is widely employed on single engine aircraft by the PLAAF should give us an indication of their confidence with employing it.

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## siegecrossbow

Ali_Baba said:


> The purpose of the recent acquisitions is of course to increase military capability but also build infrastructure in Pakistan that can better interoperate with mainstream Chinese systems.
> 
> I do think PAF will ramp up J10C's quickly as the lines between China/India/USA are becoming more defined - and the PAF will want to rely less on its F16s due to the China/India/USA standoff.
> 
> but where does the USA - China rivalary end up - at some point it will turn hot from cold - esp if the Americans start seeing they are losing the new cold war and at that point Pakistan will simply become collateral damage with little regard.



Not to mention names but one of the PLA naval insiders is very impressed with Pakistan's ability to not only build and maintain Chinese military equipment but also their ability to learn. According to him Pakistanis engineers already have a very detailed understanding of the inner workings of naval systems and maybe in a decade or two will be able to develop completely indigenous platforms. He compared the process with Soviet military tech transfer to China.

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## Trango Towers

Jungibaaz said:


> Some of the newer members might not have been around PDF to remember the SAM leak controversy we had here some years back. It pays to be cautious now.
> 
> 
> I’d say forget thrust vectoring, nowhere in the world is it employed by in-service single engine fighter aircraft. Nor is it that useful, or worth the extra weight and complexity.
> 
> What’s far more important on the engine front is sufficient power and reliability. Although we don’t know the MTBO, pressure ratios, thrust specs... the fact that WS-10 is widely employed on single engine aircraft by the PLAAF should give us an indication of their confidence with employing it.


To be honest I was surprised to see it. Agreed re the complexity


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## aziqbal

Pakistan defence news has post a image showing J10C at Chengdu

I cant repost it here anyone following them

it bit small on phone will check when I get home it shows 20 x J10C in grey camo and 1 yellow primer ?

someone check it out on Facebook


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## FuturePAF

Trailer23 said:


> *New Packing...*
> View attachment 804483​


Even French Rafale Pilots are talking about the Turkish (Azerbaijani and Pakistani) counter to the Rafale (mostly focusing on the Qatari Rafales), right now; *LIVE*





p.s. @Vortex is the speaker saying anything interesting, with regards to a way to counter the Rafale or Pakistan, especially as related to the J-10?

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## untitled

Riz said:


> What is the update on J-10C CFTs ? J-10s will get CFT in future or not ?


@dbc pointed out that it is hard to fit CFTs on a detla canard. That leaves us with tanker options only. Either buddy refuelling or dedicated aircraft. That could benefit our Mirage and JF17 fleet too

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## mudas777

Imran Khan said:


> with this deal PAF is delaying 5th gen fighter more 10 years . while rest of world getting to 5th gen we are lacking behind in 4th gen now . PAF was superior because of quality but now its gone .



Bro J 10 is required today to cope with the added pressures put on us by Jai Hind mud warriors. We are getting on with the AZM and in todays world anything can happen considering shifting alliances in our region. We have to survive today to see the sun light of tomorrow.
Never forget Gadhafi cancelling the air defence deal with the Russia after when he visited the France and the UK. His assessment was he have got no longer any threats as of now he is on good terms with them. What happened few months latter, same countries planes bombed the hell of the Libya and the Afghans, Tunisian's, Moroccan's other CIA mercenaries were freely walking on his roads . 
You are talking about the 5th generation and I am thinking of the 7th generation ignoring the 6th so I can get the roses from the moon which I planted in my dreams. Patience bro.

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## HAIDER

*Pakistan confirms raising squadron of Chinese J-10C in response to India's Rafale jets*
*The J-10C is considered a capable workhorse of the Chinese air force, but it falls below the cutting-edge capabilities of the Rafale.*



Ankit Kumar New DelhiDecember 29, 2021UPDATED: December 30, 2021 00:33 IST






File photo of J-10C fighter jets | Getty Images


Putting the speculations to rest, the government of Pakistan has confirmed the acquisition of at least 25 Chinese J-10C fighter jets for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Pakistan's interior minister Sheikh Rashid told reporters in Rawalpindi on Wednesday that a squadron of 25 China-made jets would participate in a fly-past on 23 March. The minister touted the Chinese jets as "an answer to India's Rafale jets".


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## FuturePAF

Btw, what the latest public performance specs on the J-10CE?

TWR (J-10 is much lighter then the Rafale but nearly the same thrust), Instantaneous turn and Sustained Turn?

Rafale’s Instanteous turn rate in 30’ and Sustained is 24’. If the J-10 matches it or comes close like the Eurofighter (30’ and 23’ respectively) it will give the IAF nightmares for decades to come, just like the F-16 did for decades.

With the J-10 acquisition, Pakistan has regained the technological (and Psychological) superiority over the IAF, and for the proof we need only look at the hysteria in the Indian Media today.

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## nomi007

Solid evidence of 25 J-10C for PAF.


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## HAIDER

If its coming with AL31 engine , then most lethal one with thrust vectoring capability ..

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## The Eagle

HAIDER said:


> but it falls below the cutting-edge capabilities of the Rafale.



It is always necessary to mention such kind of lines to explain IAF Rafale induction and not to have RSS Lynch Mob visitors knocking on the Door. That's the kind of hype & over confidence once they had for Flankers and all the IAF fleet; costing them more than just conventional losses.

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## HAIDER

The Eagle said:


> It is always necessary to mention such kind of lines to explain IAF Rafale induction and not to have RSS Lynch Mob visitors knocking on the Door. That's the kind of hype & over confidence once they had for Flankers and all the IAF fleet; costing them more than just conventional losses.


What do you expect from Indian sources.. lol... but on a serious note, the top cream of PAF knows India will try to strike Pakistan to revenge the Feb27 humiliation ..
Gen Musharraf was the biggest supporter of adding J10 in Pak inventory.

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## The Eagle

HAIDER said:


> What do you expect from Indian sources.. lol... but on a serious note, the top cream of PAF knows India will try to strike Pakistan to revenge the Feb27 humiliation ..



Their failed attempts are expected since Independence. They will always try to inflict a damage so as in area of psychological war but PAF always turned the table on them. This time, a modern time humiliation in 2019 indeed pushed Modi to come with yet another stunt. Not just the same happened in 2019 but due to the age of internet, media and lot of sources where modern day Nazi wasn't able to manipulate without any counter argument.

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## Jungibaaz

The Eagle said:


> It is always necessary to mention such kind of lines to explain IAF Rafale induction and not to have RSS Lynch Mob visitors knocking on the Door. That's the kind of hype & over confidence once they had for Flankers and all the IAF fleet; costing them more than just conventional losses.


Alhamdulillah, I hope they stay overconfident. It’s kind of amazing the mental gymnastics the online types engage in. But it makes the armed forces’ job easier, hopefully more Galwan and Swift Retort like episodes should they ever become audacious enough to test the waters again.

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## The Eagle

HAIDER said:


> If its coming with AL31 engine , then most lethal one with thrust vectoring capability ..



AL31 is Russian Engine without TVC. Chinese origin WS-10 Engine is lauded more reliable. No engine has TVC on J-10C. I agree with rest of the comments about TVC on single engine fighter jet that results in nothing but complexity of system, weight, maintenance hurdles and above all having very less of utilization during actual fight.

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## Deino

aziqbal said:


> Pakistan defence news has post a image showing J10C at Chengdu
> 
> I cant repost it here anyone following them
> 
> it bit small on phone will check when I get home it shows 20 x J10C in grey camo and 1 yellow primer ?
> 
> someone check it out on Facebook




Please post it or at least a link!


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## The Eagle

nomi007 said:


> Solid evidence of 25 J-10C for PAF.



My dear friend, even I shared these pictures long ago on another thread merely to tease everyone and then had the conversation with @Deino as well. It was almost 6 or 7 months ago if I am not wrong. Doesn't carry any weight in current circumstances of J-10CP for PAF or such is the least evidence to support the argument. Furthermore, does anyone remember numbers & numbers of J-10 outside production factory during pandemic. We had threads as well and it was argued that most of them are awaiting new WS-10 engines.

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## Deino

nomi007 said:


> Solid evidence of 25 J-10C for PAF.




No it is not, in fact it is fake!

These J-10Cs at CAC were spotted in late April and as I noted so often, were most likely sent to the PLAAF's 25th and 16th Air Brigades.

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## MH.Yang

If 25 planes take off at one time, there should be more than 25 planes. According to the Complete preparation rate 75%, the number of aircraft should not be less than 30. I guess there should be 36 J10c, two squadrons.

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## truthseeker2010

The Eagle said:


> Their failed attempts are expected since Independence. They will always try to inflict a damage so as in area of psychological war but PAF always turned the table on them. This time, a modern time humiliation in 2019 indeed pushed Modi to come with yet another stunt. Not just the same happened in 2019 but due to the age of internet, media and lot of sources where modern day Nazi wasn't able to manipulate without any counter argument.



IMO they wont use rafale for A2A engagements unless IAF would be hell sure that IAF's numbers are at least twice or more against PAF's JF or any lesser fighter in that area at the anticipated time, even than Rafale would remain deep inside indian territory. They would also sync their AD before operating rafale. Last thing the IAF would want would be Paf BVR on its tale and rafale falling in Pakistan's territory. The repercussions of that would be not just be A2A kill but well beyond Pak vs India.

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## The Eagle

truthseeker2010 said:


> IMO they wont use rafale for A2A engagements unless IAF would be hell sure that IAF's numbers are at least twice or more against PAF's JF or any lesser fighter in that area at the anticipated time, even than Rafale would remain deep inside indian territory. They would also sync their AD before operating rafale. Last thing the IAF would want would be Paf BVR on its tale and rafale falling in Pakistan's territory. The repercussions of that would be not just be A2A kill but well beyond Pak vs India.



This is how one can differentiate between smart acquisitions V/s buying spree. Pakistan couldn't and will never race into numbers games rather, it is to make costlier for the rival for their survival. India believes in numbers parity and with smart acquisitions, reliable counter arrangements, familiarization with modern & advance tactics, keeping up with modern day changes in warfare arena and coping with new threats; PAF been doing the job well and still does so. Make it costlier if you cannot compete the number game. India will spend more and will still remain at disadvantage if PAF maintains the first see & first shoot capability like present. It is promised and will be fulfilled for India same it is.

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## ziaulislam

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) thankyou for very insightful post as ever.
> 
> If, as you pointed out the PAF induction history and it makes sense, PAF is going for 90 odd J10 frames... then it would make imminent sense for PAC to have an assembly line for these birds.
> 
> For stop-gap/urgent delivery off-the-shelf is logical... but PAC needs to be able to assemble J10s in house...with some parts made-in-house.
> 
> Perhaps, PAC can become a supplier for CAC as the PLAAF needs alot of fighters.
> 
> With tooling and training upgrades we can lay the groundwork for longterm....
> 
> One does hope that this deal is not for ready made fighters... it must have something more than that for us...
> 
> PAC needs to evolve and be integerated into CAC/SAC or other major companies in the world as sub-contractor....
> 
> AZM is not just a plane... it is an infrastructure and capability for 5thGen environment...
> 
> One would be truly disappointed if we don't follow this path.
> 
> Mangus


Not really
Doubt PAC can make it cheaper then what china can provide
Its not a western jet that has high assembly cost

A depo level support sure but full assembly line probably not. 

PAC has its hands full with jf17 and should churn around 250-300 in the future for PAF & exports

Ultimately even of we induct 70 j10s we would need atleast 250 thunders to get to 400 number by 2030 
Add 10-12 lost in attrition to this number


truthseeker2010 said:


> IMO they wont use rafale for A2A engagements unless IAF would be hell sure that IAF's numbers are at least twice or more against PAF's JF or any lesser fighter in that area at the anticipated time, even than Rafale would remain deep inside indian territory. They would also sync their AD before operating rafale. Last thing the IAF would want would be Paf BVR on its tale and rafale falling in Pakistan's territory. The repercussions of that would be not just be A2A kill but well beyond Pak vs India.


Rafale was brought for strike missions
It is its primary role


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## MH.Yang

J10c is not used to replace F16, but to replace Mirage. PAF should replace F16 with 5G fighter.

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## Bratva

Jungibaaz said:


> Some of the newer members might not have been around PDF to remember the SAM leak controversy we had here some years back. It pays to be cautious now.
> 
> 
> I’d say forget thrust vectoring, nowhere in the world is it employed by in-service single engine fighter aircraft. Nor is it that useful, or worth the extra weight and complexity.
> 
> What’s far more important on the engine front is sufficient power and reliability. Although we don’t know the MTBO, pressure ratios, thrust specs... the fact that WS-10 is widely employed on single engine aircraft by the PLAAF should give us an indication of their confidence with employing it.



Its better to quote a very recent and fresh example. That Teacher who leaked the Swift retort op Pilot call. Air Intelligence was swift and identified the leaker quickly and put him behind the bars

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## Battlion25

MH.Yang said:


> J10c is not used to replace F16, but to replace Mirage. PAF should replace F16 with 5G fighter.



Yes this. I would also like to highlight that the F16s are a match for the rafale but Pakistan wants to keep it's qualtitative edge over IAF hence why the addition of J10c due to it's BVR range being 200km+... The goal is to induct both manned and unmanned 5G fighter jets by 2029 MIUS and TFX and to induct 6G by 2040 and 7G by 2049. This is a continuous process but the key goal is to maintain the qualtitative edge over India on a continuously basis the dice keeps rolling


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## MH.Yang

Battlion25 said:


> Yes this. I would also like to highlight that the F16s are a match for the rafale but Pakistan wants to keep it's qualtitative edge over IAF hence why the addition of J10c due to it's BVR range being 200km+... The goal is to induct both manned and unmanned 5G fighter jets by 2029 MIUS and TFX and to induct 6G by 2040 and 7G by 2049. This is a continuous process but the key goal is to maintain the qualtitative edge over India on a continuously basis the dice keeps rolling



In my opinion, the overall capability of J10c is about equal to F16b50/52. The best single engine 4G fighter is still F16E/F. 
I don't think Pakistan will replace F16A/B/C/D with J10c. Obviously, the gap between the two is not as big as JF-17 and F7. J10c should be used to replace Mirage and deal with Rafale. 
In the long run, Pakistan should replace F16 with 5G fighters after their airframe life is exhausted. India will have 5G fighters sooner or later. PAF can't only see Rafale.

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## Trango Towers

untitled said:


> @dbc pointed out that it is hard to fit CFTs on a detla canard. That leaves us with tanker options only. Either buddy refuelling or dedicated aircraft. That could benefit our Mirage and JF17 fleet too


Why is it hard? 
Unless it has an adverse effect on the aerodynamic performance the rest is basic engineering


FuturePAF said:


> Even French Rafale Pilots are talking about the Turkish (Azerbaijani and Pakistani) counter to the Rafale (mostly focusing on the Qatari Rafales), right now; *LIVE*


They have to talk because although they make money milking the Indian cow they also know in the hands of Indians they are likely to get very bad press soon

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## HRK

Reichmarshal said:


> I forsee that we will be going into a war any time between now n 2024.





Desert Fox 1 said:


> May I ask why so? Respectfully





Pappa Alpha said:


> The higher ups must be predicting war before 2030.



In May 2024 next Indian general election will held, therefore there is a possibility that India will do some misadventure before that time may be in 2023

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## Trango Towers

MH.Yang said:


> If 25 planes take off at one time, there should be more than 25 planes. According to the Complete preparation rate 75%, the number of aircraft should not be less than 30. I guess there should be 36 J10c, two squadrons.


Our squadrons are 18 aircraft?


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## MH.Yang

Trango Towers said:


> Our squadrons are 18 aircraft?


Am I wrong? I remember 3 squadrons of 36 aircraft in China and 2 squadrons of 36 aircraft in Pakistan.

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## Trango Towers

MH.Yang said:


> Am I wrong? I remember 3 squadrons of 36 aircraft in China and 2 squadrons of 36 aircraft in Pakistan.


I always thought a squadron was 12 aircraft


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## aziqbal

did the minster say 25? well it makes no sense 

he also called is Jaaayyyessss 10 

I would say 36 x J10C for starts


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## MH.Yang

Trango Towers said:


> I always thought a squadron was 12 aircraft


Pakistan's Air Force squadron is also 12 aircraft? 
I've read an article before saying that the number of aircraft in Pakistan's squadron is 50% more than that in China. Let me look for this article.

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## StructE

Trango Towers said:


> I always thought a squadron was 12 aircraft


PAF uses 12 aircraft / squadron for aircraft types with higher rate of availability, 18 aircraft / squadron for aircraft types with lower rate of availability, my understanding is that F-6 and A-5 squadrons in past used to have 18 aircrafts and Mirages were somewhere in between 12 - 18. Let's see how J-10 is distributed.

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## Trango Towers

StructE said:


> PAF uses 12 aircraft / squadron for aircraft types with higher rate of availability, 18 aircraft / squadron for aircraft types with lower rate of availability, my understanding is that F-6 and A-5 squadrons in past used to have 18 aircrafts and Mirages were somewhere in between 12 - 18. Let's see how J-10 is distributed.


Thank you...that makes sense

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## SIPRA

HRK said:


> In May 2024 next Indian general election will held, therefore there is a possibility that India will do some misadventure before that time may be in 2023



Pray, that they do it with China.

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## Trango Towers

SIPRA said:


> Pray, that they do it with China.


Personally I don't think they have a chance with us either

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## HRK

SIPRA said:


> Pray, that they do it with China.


they will never engage China in armed battle, in fact even if China increase the pressure in Ladakh India will try to release it towards Pakistan & AJK

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## SIPRA

Trango Towers said:


> Personally I don't think they have a chance with us either



Yes, but if they take a simultaneous "panga" with China and Pakistan, then Bharat Mata can have the pleasure of "double penetration". 



HRK said:


> they will never engage China in armed battle, in fact even if China increase the pressure in Ladakh India will try to release towards Pakistan & AJK



That is what I also believe, but sometimes, out of nowhere, 1962 happens.

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## aziqbal

MH.Yang said:


> Pakistan's Air Force squadron is also 12 aircraft?
> I've read an article before saying that the number of aircraft in Pakistan's squadron is 50% more than that in China. Let me look for this article.



actually there is no fixed number 

it ranges between 12-16 units per squadron


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## Riz

HRK said:


> they will never engage China in armed battle, in fact even if China increase the pressure in Ladakh India will try to release it towards Pakistan & AJK


Best chance to get back IOK from them is now when china is sitting in ladakh , i am prying for the new COAS of PA , we need an aggressive chief who can act according to the current situation

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## Bossman

untitled said:


> Are the jets coming with Chinese ejection seats? Don't think Martin-Baker would have been in the loop for this deal.





Pappa Alpha said:


> All branches of Pak armed forces are getting new equipment at a rapid pace even with current state of economy. The higher ups must be predicting war before 2030.


sooner than that. Understand the Hinduvata timeline that Modi is following patterned after the NAZI playbook. I think we are already in the window, where there is a high risk of a limited war.

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## mudas777

SIPRA said:


> Yes, but if they take a simultaneous "panga" with China and Pakistan, then Bharat Mata can have the pleasure of "double penetration".
> 
> 
> 
> That is what I also believe, but sometimes, out of nowhere, 1962 happens.



India will never attack, just will keep farting with variable frequencies unless they are 200 % sure they can win the war. Imagine if they attack Pakistan or China what will be left of the India so all these dramas and Bollywood serials will continue for the foreseeable future. We needed J 10 to stop them in their tracks in case Rafael daru goes to their heads.
Brothers are forgetting one thing they are the nation of bunias and they want to sell their stock and importance at the higher price to the outside world. Joining the QUAD is the highlight of the fascist Modi regime to give boost to their little non functioning willies.

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## SIPRA

Riz said:


> Best chance to get back IOK from them is now when china is sitting in ladakh , i am prying for the new COAS of PA , we need an aggressive chief who can act according to the current situation



Who knows that the next one will be more aggressive?


mudas777 said:


> India will never attack, just will keep farting with variable frequencies unless they are 200 % sure they can win the war. Imagine if they attack Pakistan or China what will be left of the India so all these dramas and Bollywood serials will continue for the foreseeable future. We needed J 10 to stop them in their tracks in case Rafael daru goes to their heads.
> Brothers are forgetting one thing they are the nation of bunias and they want to sell their stock and importance at the higher price to the outside world. Joining the QUAD is the highlight of the fascist Modi regime to give boost to their little non functioning willies.



You are right. Apparently, there is no chance of India challenging China. Indian political and military leadership is well aware of the strength of China and utter weakness of India. They will merely keep on chest thumping and barking.

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## waz

Stick to the topics gents, leave the India rubbish alone.

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## kursed

Rafael said:


> Waiting for @kursed to enlighten us more


Congratulations!

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## crankthatskunk

Erroroverload said:


> that nuff said is really irritating us for many years.



If he said "nuff said" , why are you insisting for him to say any further. He kinda already given his mind.


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## Taimoor Khan

Would be some sight when this bird will be carrying three RA'AD ALCMs, one under each wing and the central hardpoint. Basically carrying load of three Mirages.

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## Rafael

kursed said:


> Congratulations!



How many? I would like to know before having that nihari

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## Shotgunner51

MH.Yang said:


> In my opinion, the overall capability of J10c is about equal to F16b50/52. The best single engine 4G fighter is still F16E/F.


My opinion differs slightly, out of all F-16 variants the most advanced is latest *F-16V* making it a good topic of interests.

F-16V on a 14.5 tons F110-GE-132 surely wins hand down vs Rafale on all fronts (other than carrier-based ability or low-speed maneuverability), the latter is powered by a pair of weak medium-thrust (7.5 tons M88) and France is never a lead nation on electronics/semiconductor industry, its much hyped active cancellation tech to achieve low RCS is also nothing new (China has been well versed on this subject for years even openly share scientific papers). F-16V also wins EFT in multi-purpose missions, only pales in AD interception (designed to intercept hi-speed hi-altitude USSR air force).

We know F-16V is first adopted by Taiwan air force and obviously becomes top study subject for PLAAF, while J-10C is always study subject for them. PLAAF study though not available, but here is a 3rd party opinion piece on *J-10C vs F-16V* that I personally find convincing (the second link is the piece as quoted by Taiwan source):
​




Military Watch Magazine







militarywatchmagazine.com











美國軍事雜誌分析 殲10C勝過F-16V - 軍事


美國F-16V「蝰蛇」(Viper)，和大陸的殲10C，分別於2017年和2018年完成，代表著當代最強大的兩種輕型戰鬥機，並且都是早期型的大幅度改進版本。這兩型戰機有頗多相似之處，包括空重都約13噸，機鼻電達空間大小相似，




www.chinatimes.com

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## kursed

Rafael said:


> How many? I would like to know before having that nihari


Won’t be able to confirm the numbers, but expect multiple batches - that’s for sure. What’s expected in Feb is the first batch.

And @Bilal Khan (Quwa) is right, PAF will keep a lid on how often they’d share info on the bird since they’d take on air superiority role once inducted. Do remember that PAF chief did say it out clearly that they’ll retain first shoot capability.

@Deino - I hope the timeline was proven to be true.

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## Battlion25

mudas777 said:


> India will never attack, just will keep farting with variable frequencies unless they are 200 % sure they can win the war. Imagine if they attack Pakistan or China what will be left of the India so all these dramas and Bollywood serials will continue for the foreseeable future. We needed J 10 to stop them in their tracks in case Rafael daru goes to their heads.
> Brothers are forgetting one thing they are the nation of bunias and they want to sell their stock and importance at the higher price to the outside world. Joining the QUAD is the highlight of the fascist Modi regime to give boost to their little non functioning willies.



India will avoid miscalculation on both borders for the foreseeable future in the next couple of decades unless something in the near future like economical crashes happens but they will be in defensive mode and not the aggressors


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

*J10C* is ideal plane to replace handful of Mirage platforms, Since we have quite a few old *Mirages* and *F7* platforms , good to bring in J10C to replace these older platform


*36-40 - J10C replaces , *35-40 older platform


Current Inventory

100-150 , Mirages / F7P

Makes sense this small modernization effort is taking place










J10 -C is not really not coming to compete against Rafael , J10-C fits well in the general upgrade of Pakistan Airforce to move away from the 70's Mirages

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## Ali_Baba

I do think the next stage of procurement would be something like the J16D to compliment the J10s/JF17s for offensive strikes into India by having a higly survivable jamming platform they take with them on their missions - just like the Growler platform that the Americans use. It is the last remaining piece of the puzzle to complete the offensive punch capability that PAF is re-orienting itself around from its previous defensive mindset.

There is a question mark of how survivable the Blinders would be offensive missions in an airspace contested by high altitude SAM environment that has a S400 series in it.

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## Clutch

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1472745498301935617

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1472747143945404420

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1472747145728045056

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## SD 10

Clutch said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1472745498301935617
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1472747143945404420
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1472747145728045056


can anyone share some specs of j10c ?


----------



## monitor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476584112601407493

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## akramishaqkhan

The very moment we are living now, is when things are most dangerous. The likelihood of war is very high as we speak. With time chances will get less. People have little sense of how turbulent things are and things can go out of control in very short order. If we can get through the next 3-5 years chances of war will diminish.

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## Goenitz

Battlion25 said:


> India will avoid miscalculation on both borders for the foreseeable future in the next couple of decades unless something in the near future like economical crashes happens but they will be in defensive mode and not the aggressors


India will restrain China core concerns like endangering Tibet, or roads leading to it, or dominant positions. However, after a brwal with Chinese, India can do the same 26 Feb thing to portray Modi as double front fighter. So yes, no 2 front WAR but some show off.
@was apologies


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## Talon

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> *J10C* is ideal plane to replace handful of Mirage platforms, Since we have quite a few old *Mirages* and *F7* platforms , good to bring in J10C to replace these older platform
> 
> 
> *36-40 - J10C replaces , *35-40 older platform
> 
> 
> Current Inventory
> 
> 100-150 , Mirages / F7P
> 
> Makes sense this small modernization effort is taking place
> 
> View attachment 804681


How are Mirages being reduced? If you are referring to No. 15 sqn being equipped with J-10s then Mirages of that sqn have been *transferred* , so no reduction as of now.


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## Pakistan Space Agency

How does it make sense for Pakistan Air Force to be operating 2 medium-weight platforms and 4 light-weight platforms all at the same time?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Hodor said:


> How are Mirages being reduced? If you are referring to No. 15 sqn being equipped with J-10s then Mirages of that sqn have been *transferred* , so no reduction as of now.




How the older Mirage / F7 be handled?


Air force follows their own schedule to gradually phase out older planes they have been doing it for some time

Parked for Spare parts for remaining planes
May be parked as reserve
Decommissioned

The sooner the better

As J10C arrives , makes sense to Decommission older F7 or Mirages

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## Talon

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> How the older Mirage / F7 be handled?
> 
> 
> Air force follows their own schedule to gradually phase out older planes they have been doing it for some time
> 
> Parked for Spare parts for remaining planes
> May be parked as reserve
> Decommissioned
> 
> The sooner the better


You cannot compare F-7s with Mirages in this regard, and we are not discussing *old *( or probably a better term : not air worthy) *units* so please. The topic here is the platform and not units.

F-7s are clearly being phased out. OTH Mirages regularly keep visiting Kamra for repairs and overhauling. PAF has found a replacement for F-7s but is yet to find one for Mirages. Recent planned accquisition ( though later called off because of political influences of certain countries ) of Egyptian Mirages clearly indicates PAF plans to keep Mirages in air for foreseeable future.

Please share atleast one example in recent times where a Mirage squadron has been re-equipped with a new aircraft and Mirages of that squadron have been decommissioned/used for spares/parked as reserves. 

Even the newly raised squadron did not retire a single Mirage unit, all of them are still operational. So my question still remains, how are Mirages being reduced?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

It is time to say good bye to Mirages, I know there is old attachment and love for these planes but it is time

Mirages : Sure lovely plane for support role , some ground missions some upgrades
F-7 : Again good supportive craft close range, agile , tiny

But makes sense to transfer 150 Pilots over to *J10C *or *JF-17 Block III*

> 50 Pilots for J10C 
> 50 Pilots shifted to Block III (Multi Mission)

50 Pilots focus on availability of modern replacement (Undisclosed Jets Azm ?)


Cough Cough , I heard UK is selling their Typhoons Just throwing it out there

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## Talon

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> As J10C arrives , makes sense to Decommission older F7 or Mirages


F-7s replacement is JF-17 and in no way J-10 is replacement of Mirage. Both will serve different roles. Yes a Mirage squadron might get re-equipped with J-10 but Mirages of that squadron will either be sent to an existing squadron or a new one might be raised.

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## SQ8

Trango Towers said:


> If you can think of this - do u think no one at PAF has not worked out tactics to counter. This game of cat and moses will always exist


Working out tactics is one thing - recognizing it and executing against it are another.

Good execution > brilliant plan


Desert Fox 1 said:


> Dear tge time when PDF used to discuss such things is gone, unfortunately.


That’s because every other person on PDF thinks they will lose their paycheck if they cannot win an argument on PDF or they will stoop to the level of an Bhakt troll using loghorrea or worse.

Pakistanis(including myself) have problems balancing being productively critical or just criticism and negativity to assuage and satisfy inner guilt or victim mentality.

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## Talon

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 50 Pilots focus on availability of modern replacement


I am going to ignore everything you just said and focus on this one. Are you trying to br sarcastic or did you really mean it? 🤨

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Hodor said:


> I am going to ignore everything you just said and focus on this one. Are you trying to br sarcastic or did you really mean it? 🤨



I am not big fan of Mirages and F7, I only consider these machines as support jets in 2021

I firmly believe in Timely modernization, which is why I appreciate the arrival of J10 C to Pakistan's Airforce

People may feel it is a response to Rafael but to me it is merely modernization effort on PAF part , which was already considered back in 2006-2007 (Musharraf Government) , when originally 36 Jets were planned for 2014 arrival. But back in 2014 the plan was delayed for unknown reasons.

I see arrival of J10C back to normal business or resumption of existing plans which were halted, many people agreed even as far as 2010 that PAF need a Fall Gap platform , till arrival of the AZM project.

The Fall Gap Jets offer more time for refinement for JF17 Block III (if need be)


J10-C of course has gone further enhancement between 2014-Present , and seems PAF has decided to make move for it , which is highly welcomed


What Ratio will be between* J10C *or *JF-17 Block III? , *that really depends on the additional add-on research being done on *JF-17 Block III *obviously that is something only the researchers / engineers know how much more time they need to refine all requirements for *JF-17 Block III. *

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## siegecrossbow

Shotgunner51 said:


> My opinion differs a bit, out of all F-16 variants the most advanced is latest *F-16V* making it a good topic of interests.
> 
> F-16V on a 14.5 tons F110-GE-132 surely wins hand down vs Rafale, the latter is powered by a pair of weak medium-thrust (7.5 tons M88) and France is never a lead nation on electronics/semiconductor industry, active cancellation tech to achieve low RCS is also nothing new (China has been well versed on this subject for years even openly share scientific papers). F-16V also wins EFT in multi-purpose missions, perhaps only pales in AD interception (designed to intercept hi-speed hi-altitude USSR air force).
> 
> We know F-16V is first adopted by Taiwan air force and obviously becomes top study subject for PLAAF, while J-10C is always study subject for them. PLAAF study not available, but here is a 3rd party opinion piece on J-10C vs F-16V that I find interesting (the second link is the piece as quoted by Taiwan source):
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Military Watch Magazine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> militarywatchmagazine.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 美國軍事雜誌分析 殲10C勝過F-16V - 軍事
> 
> 
> 美國F-16V「蝰蛇」(Viper)，和大陸的殲10C，分別於2017年和2018年完成，代表著當代最強大的兩種輕型戰鬥機，並且都是早期型的大幅度改進版本。這兩型戰機有頗多相似之處，包括空重都約13噸，機鼻電達空間大小相似，
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chinatimes.com



Not to derail the thread but there are two F-16V variants in Taiwan. The first are simply F-16A converted to AESA radar and avionics while the second are completely new airframes with new engine. The former is a bit under powered for close-in encounters.

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## Talon

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I am not big fan of Mirages and F7, I only consider these machines as support jets in 2021
> 
> I firmly believe in Timely modernization, which is why I appreciate the arrival of J10 C to Pakistan's Airforce
> 
> People may feel it is a response to Rafael but to me it is merely modernization effort on PAF part , which was already considered back in 2007 , when originally 36 Jets were planned for 2014


Mirage is a support aircraft? Is main strike platform considered as support? 

You keep ignoring my arguments and keep coming up with new and weird statements. 

Anyways, this discussion is off topic so I am ending this here.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Hodor said:


> Mirage is a support aircraft? Is main strike platform considered as support?
> 
> You keep ignoring my arguments and keep coming up with new and weird statements.
> 
> Anyways, this discussion is off topic so I am ending this here.




np, my opinion is reserved I understand a lot of people love Mirage planes for their long history with PAF. This is a attachment to that platform

But 100% still great to welcome new birds J10C in March inshallah


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## Talon

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> np, my opinion is reserved I understand a lot of people love Mirage planes for their long history with PAF. This is a attachment to that platform
> 
> But 100% still great to welcome new birds J10C in March inshallah


You have complete right to your opinion but you need to provide a supporting logic and example.

I have already given you the answer to this attachment claim of yours but you just keep avoiding my arguments.

Take care..

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## araz

Deino said:


> No it is not, in fact it is fake!
> 
> These J-10Cs at CAC were spotted in late April and as I noted so often, were most likely sent to the PLAAF's 25th and 16th Air Brigades.
> 
> View attachment 804619


What utter crap is being spewed in this video! He is himself saying this picture is from March 20. He has counted 25 planes and stated they are for PAF
irrespective of the time scale. This is ridiculous. They are more than likely for PLAAF as you have stated.
A


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## araz

aziqbal said:


> did the minster say 25? well it makes no sense
> 
> he also called is Jaaayyyessss 10
> 
> I would say 36 x J10C for starts


It maybe 25 will be delivered this year and the next lot will be next year.
A


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## araz

Riz said:


> Best chance to get back IOK from them is now when china is sitting in ladakh , i am prying for the new COAS of PA , we need an aggressive chief who can act according to the current situation


I dont think any PA chief will do anything other than maintain peace. You think Bajwa is a weak leader but you know what his response to indian trying to lob some missiles our way? That is not the response of a/weak chief. That is the response of someone saying "Leave me alone or prepare to die/when I get agitated". Being peace loving and being weak are not necessarily the same in my humble opinion.
Regards
A

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## araz

Bossman said:


> sooner than that. Understand the Hinduvata timeline that Modi is following patterned after the NAZI playbook. I think we are already in the window, where there is a high risk of a limited war.


I dont think there is a single sane person who would think that aWar between 2 Nuclear armed nations can remain limited. If you look at the aftermath of 27/2 if Indians had lobbed missiles across the border it would have gotten a response back in kind leading to more problems. Ithink this was the precise reason the Indians had to rely on "missile dodgers" medals for its Air force as a consolation rather than a reprisal in the form of a missile attack.
A

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## Pappa Alpha

Can someone please briefly explain why J-10Cs cannot replace role of Mirages if procured in sufficient numbers?

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## GOAT

I’ve read a few members saying J-10C is a replacement for mirage fighters which I understand are primarily strike units. I also saw that Sheikh Rasheed noted the j-10s are being inducted to counter Rafales which seems to contradict the notion of J-10s replacing mirages. Am I misunderstanding something? Would appreciate any insight on the role of J-10s.


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## Pakistan Space Agency

aziqbal said:


> did the minster say 25? well it makes no sense
> 
> he also called is Jaaayyyessss 10
> 
> I would say 36 x J10C for starts





araz said:


> It maybe 25 will be delivered this year and the next lot will be next year.
> A


This is what he said:

_Meh aap ka shukriya ada karta hun aur sari qaum ko yakeen dilana chahta hun._​​_Batain log kar rahay hain._​​_23 March ki meh nay un say request ki hai, kay 30 March kar dain, kyu kay bohot VIP guest ah rahay hain._​​_Aur, pehli dafa Pakistan meh JS-10 ki flying past ho rahi hai._​​_Rafale kay muqablay meh Pakistan Air Force jo hai, flying past karnay lagi hai JS-10 Cheen kay jahaaz say._​​_Yeh Rafale kay torr meh hum nay, JS-10 jo hai, wo aik poora 25 ka squadron flying past karay ga._​​_Aur, hum apnay diffa say bi ghafil nahi. Hamari azeem afwaaj hai._​
He did not say whether Pakistan has purchased the J-10C, leased it or inducted any. just only, that a squadron of 25 will do a fly past.


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## kursed

B/W JF B1/B2 and Mirage - PAF has strike options that cover 500-700 KMs into enemy territory with a multitude of SOWs, why'd they opt to force the role on to J10s as well. It's an air superiority role to play. Simple.

B/W F-16s B52s and MLU (AIM 120C5) and J10 (PL15 and PL10E) - backed up by force multipliers PAF will have a solid air defense.

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## GOAT

MH.Yang said:


> In my opinion, the overall capability of J10c is about equal to F16b50/52. The best single engine 4G fighter is still F16E/F.
> I don't think Pakistan will replace F16A/B/C/D with J10c. Obviously, the gap between the two is not as big as JF-17 and F7. J10c should be used to replace Mirage and deal with Rafale.
> In the long run, Pakistan should replace F16 with 5G fighters after their airframe life is exhausted. India will have 5G fighters sooner or later. PAF can't only see Rafale.



Thanks, can you please elaborate on why you believe f16 b50/52 are roughly equivalent to the J10C. I am no fighter plane expert, just a casual.


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## JamD

In a thread this old there are bound to be repititions so here's my attempt at an answer to this question from 6 months ago


JamD said:


> In my opinion the J-10 is NOT a replacement for the Mirages for the following reasons:
> 1. The Mirages are PAF's strike element, capable of carrying various SOWs. To the best of my knowledge we are not buying the various SOWs that come with the J-10 - we have heard a lot about PL-15's and AESA's.
> 2. Azm is envisioned as a heavy-weight strike aircraft - and in my opinion will be the replacement to the Mirages.
> 3. There's an F-16 shaped gap in PAF's numbers - so IMHO the J10s are coming to augment the F16s.
> 
> That being said aircraft don't HAVE to replace another aircraft one-to-one so saying x is a replacement for y is always just a rough statement.






Pappa Alpha said:


> Can someone please briefly explain why J-10Cs cannot replace role of Mirages if procured in sufficient numbers?





GOAT said:


> I’ve read a few members saying J-10C is a replacement for mirage fighters which I understand are primarily strike units. I also saw that Sheikh Rasheed noted the j-10s are being inducted to counter Rafales which seems to contradict the notion of J-10s replacing mirages. Am I misunderstanding something? Would appreciate any insight on the role of J-10s.



And this is exactly right


kursed said:


> B/W JF B1/B2 and Mirage - PAF has strike options that cover 500-700 KMs into enemy territory with a multitude of SOW options, why'd they opt to force the role on to J10s as well. It's an air superiority role to play. Simple.
> 
> B/W F-16s B52s and MLU (AIM 120C5) and J10 (PL15 and PL10E) - backed up by force multipliers PAF will have a solid air defense.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Sometimes it is good to leave somethings for imagination

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## araz

Pappa Alpha said:


> Can someone please briefly explain why J-10Cs cannot replace role of Mirages if procured in sufficient numbers?


Air to ground attack requires aircraft which can go low and fast lob their SOWs and RTB. Because of this mode they remain at risk of attrition. You need some platform with Delta configuration which has low cost. The mirages fit this role perfectly. J10s are deltas with Canards which impart different characteristics taking away some if not all the weaknesses to the Deltas. Their role in the PAF would be A2A comimenting theF16s and helped by JFT. They are fairly expensive so PAF will use them in their Air to air role as it can carry a fair bit of arsenal on the hardpoints. It would be more suited for its Air to air role.
A

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## GOAT

JamD said:


> In a thread this old there are bound to be repititions so here's my attempt at an answer to this question from 6 months ago
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is exactly right



Thank you that was very helpful.

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## siegecrossbow

I have read credible rumor that the PL-15 exported to Pakistan as a part of the J-10C package will not be PL-15E but the same version used in PLAAF.

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## Bilal.

JamD said:


> In a thread this old there are bound to be repititions so here's my attempt at an answer to this question from 6 months ago
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is exactly right


We don’t just have ROSE mirages. What about all the non-ROSE mirages? What utility will they have and should/will they continue to serve?

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## JamD

Bilal. said:


> We don’t just have ROSE mirages. What about all the non-ROSE and ROSE I mirages? What utility will they have and should/will they continue to serve?


Good question. Honestly, I don't know enough. @Hodor can answer if he wants to.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bilal. said:


> We don’t just have ROSE mirages. What about all the non-ROSE mirages? What utility will they have and should/will they continue to serve?





JamD said:


> Good question. Honestly, I don't know enough. @Hodor can answer if he wants to.


tbh...is ROSE a necessity to deploy SOWs, especially fire-and-forget types like Ra'ad-I/II and IREK? I would think the non-ROSE Mirages can technically deploy those SOWs. There are even suppliers who'll give stand-alone hardpoints you can attach to any fighter and remotely fire said SOWs from the cockpit.

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## Bilal.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh...is ROSE a necessity to deploy SOWs, especially fire-and-forget types like Ra'ad-I/II and IREK? I would think the non-ROSE Mirages can technically deploy those SOWs. There are even suppliers who'll give stand-alone hardpoints you can attach to any fighter and remotely fire said SOWs from the cockpit.


South Africans do provide decoupled solutions like that where WI-FI connection is used to directly control the SOW launch and most likely that’s the case with H-SOWs plus the data link is also a separate pod. So maybe you are on point.

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## kursed

siegecrossbow said:


> I have read credible rumor that the PL-15 exported to Pakistan as a part of the J-10C package will not be PL-15E but the same version used in PLAAF.


Not to go by rumors, but this would explain PLAAF reservations when the export to PAF topic first came up. Still I would take this as a rumor for now.

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## IblinI

J10C has defeated J16 and Su35 during PLAAF internal exercises and won the golden helmet 2,3 times in the past 5 years.

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## HAIDER

The Eagle said:


> AL31 is Russian Engine without TVC. Chinese origin WS-10 Engine is lauded more reliable. No engine has TVC on J-10C. I agree with rest of the comments about TVC on single engine fighter jet that results in nothing but complexity of system, weight, maintenance hurdles and above all having very less of utilization during actual fight.


An old member from another forum quotes long ago.

the delivery of the vector thrust versions of the AL-31FN could mean two things:
1) the 2nd batch of J-10A's (from the 51st unit on) might be fitted with thrust vector engines to improve the agility of the jet to the max.

2) the delivery of those vector thrust engines means that they are starting to assemble the J-10C and the first prototype might role out in late 2006 or 2007. " ..

Also another good piece of info .


*China’s J-10 comes of age with indigenous engine*


By Greg Waldron21 May 2021

Save article
The recent appearance of an operational Chengdu J-10C powered by a domestically produced engine marks a key moment for the single-engined type in the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).
As with so much in Chinese airpower, much of the J-10’s history is shrouded in mystery. It is understood that the type, which originated in the 1980s, traces its lineage to the J-9, a canard/delta fighter that was abandoned in 1980. It is also believed that the J-10 benefited from the 1980s Israel Aircraft Industries Lavi programme.





Source: Chinese social media
The first clear image of an operational J-10C with a WS-10 engine
The fighter was regarded as a state secret until January 2007, when official media finally disclosed that it had entered PLAAF service. A few months later, in May 2007, Russia’s Rosoboronexport arms agency announced a $300 million deal to sell 100 Saturn AL-31 engines for China’s planned J-10 fleet. Then, in late 2008, the J-10A made its public debut at Airshow China in Zhuhai.
Since that time, the AL-31 has been the key powerplant for all variants of the J-10, from the original J-10As to the far more advanced J-10Cs. Beijing always had plans for the J-10 to receive a local powerplant, the Shenyang WS-10 Taihang, but the challenges involved in developing aircraft engines forced it to stick with the Russian powerplant longer than planned.
Finally, in early May, it became clear that a corner had been turned: a J-10C in an operational unit was spotted with the WS-10.
As is typical for significant Chinese defence developments, there was no official statement. Rather, a clear image of an operational J-10C with the WS-10 appeared on social media. Beijing’s _Global Times_ also covered a Chinese television report about the appearance of the WS-10-powered J-10C.
Andreas Rupprecht is the author of _Modern Chinese Warplanes_, an authoritative guide to mainland airpower. He was among the first observers to highlight the new development. He feels the J-10C news is highly significant.
“This cannot be overrated, and in fact is a true milestone not only for the J-10, but even more for the WS-10 programme since it marks an end of the reliance on the Russian AL-31 for all three major PLAAF fighters – at least production examples – namely the J-10C, [Shenyang] J-16 and [Chengdu] J-20,” he says.
He notes that a decade has passed since the J-10B first flew with a WS-10, and that the engine was tested on a J-10A even earlier. Finally, after years of refinement, it appears that the WS-10 is reliable and safe enough to power a single-engined fighter in active service.
Mounted inside the J-10, the WS-10 can be identified by a few subtle features. One is that the afterburner nozzle petals are notably wider on the WS-10 than on the AL-31. The WS-10 also has a ring structure around the interior of the nozzle that is absent on the AL-31. In images at least, the sheen of the alloy used on the WS-10 nozzle is also somewhat lighter than for the Russian engine.




Source: Chinese social media - 解放军报
A WS-10 powered J-10C taking off
The engine’s appearance with a J-10C continues the long development history of the J-10 programme from the somewhat rudimentary J-10A.
The J-10A, which is flown by China’s August 1st aerobatic display team, can be distinguished from later variants by the rectangular intake that is not flush with the fuselage. The variant was produced until late 2014, when production switched to the J-10B. The J-10As, however, have received updates, including the ability to carry the PL-10 infrared-guided missile.
The J-10B, distinguished by a diverterless supersonic inlet, offers several improvements over the J-10A. These include an infrared search and track sensor, glass cockpit avionics, and a passive electronically scanned array radar. The J-10B was officially unveiled at 2016’s Airshow China, appearing in the static park with the PL-12 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile. At the 2018 show, a J-10B testbed appeared in the flying display using a WS-10 thrust vector control engine.
The most advanced J-10 variant is the J-10C, which first appeared in a parade in August 2017. While largely identical to the J-10B, it can be distinguished by its slightly different tail, which slopes down from a point – the top of the J-10B’s tail is square. The fighter is equipped with an active electronically scanned array radar and an updated cockpit. It carries a broader array of weapons, including the long-range PL-15 air-to-air missile, which is believed to have a range greater than 107nm (200km).
The J-10 family also has a two-seat trainer variant, the J-10S, a derivative of the original J-10A.
FULL SCREEN IN POPUP

Previous
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1/9
SHOW CAPTION
Roderick Lee, research director at the China Aerospace Studies Institute, believes that in a conflict the J-10’s main mission would be air-to-air combat. He notes that photographs of J-10s tend to feature air-to-air munitions more frequently then weapons for ground attack.
Like Rupprecht, he believes the advent of the WS-10 powered J-10C is a significant development.
“The development of turbofan and turbojet engines is a national-level technological development priority,” he says.
“The appearance of a WS-10 on a J-10C as opposed to an AL-31 is a major public milestone for that development effort. That being said, it does not necessarily indicate that the WS-10 performs ‘just as good as an AL-31’, either in terms of thrust, flight hours, or any other technical performance metric. The PLAAF may have been willing to sacrifice something, such as lower flight hours before needing overhaul, in favour of having a domestic engine, although I doubt there was any substantive sacrifice in flight performance.”
He also notes that a fully indigenous engine should simplify logistics and support.
While the J-10 is a key aircraft for the PLAAF, it has yet to secure overseas sales. Since the 2000s there have been rumours that Pakistan will obtain the J-10, but Islamabad is clearly more focused on advancing its Chengdu/Pakistan Aeronautical Complex JF-17 capability. In April, unsourced reports suggested that Iran might be interested in acquiring J-10s to upgrade its ramshackle air force, supposedly offering a barter deal involving oil or natural gas.
Irrespective of whether international sales emerge, the J-10 will be a key fighter in Chinese service through the 2020s, adding force numbers and supporting larger types such as the J-16 and J-20. The arrival of WS-10-powered J-10Cs in operational units marks a critical inflection point in the programme’s development, as well as the growing maturity and confidence of China’s aerospace sector.





_Greg Waldron__Greg Waldron is the Asia Managing Editor of FlightGlobal, responsible for the team’s airline, aerospace, and defence coverage across the region. He has worked at the company since joining in 2009. In addition to his work as a journalist, Waldron makes regular appearances on television to discuss the industry, and speaks at industry conferences._

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## Goenitz

IblinI said:


> J10C has defeated J16 and Su35 during PLAAF internal exercises and won the golden helmet 2,3 times in the past 5 years.


in BVR or in dogfight?


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## IblinI

Goenitz said:


> in BVR or in dogfight?


free air combat with EW and AWACS involved.

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## siegecrossbow

Goenitz said:


> in BVR or in dogfight?



Golden Helmet exercise consist of free 2 vs 2 aerial combat exercises with no limits on altitude and aircraft distance. They typically start off in BVR range and work their way to WVR.

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## akramishaqkhan

J10C will replace Mirages overtime. However where Mirages within the PAF became SOW platform, the J10C provides the PAF with a more capable multi-role fighter. This will necessitate a change in tactics. Where in the past the PAF tactics was to primarily use the Mirages for quick ingress, release and then a speedy egress (given its 2.2Mach) with no loitering for air engagement, while other supporting units provide air support like F-16 and JF-17. The challenge with India's newer acquisitions was BVR engagement where our supporting units would be at a disadvantage.

I expect that the J10C along with JF17s will make a strike package (given both will have PL15). Backstopping them usually along border or within Pak border will be F16s. This will make Indian counter action very difficult and subject ot losses. They'll attempt to utilize their AA Missiles but that is not as potent as people think. Besides they'll paint themselves very quickly and open themselves to counter action on a number of fronts. J10C is big trouble for India.

With J10C, tactics will change, and PK penetration and offensive power increases considerably.

I foresee an Indian reaction to J10C be in the form of increasing their Rafael numbers. They'll also attempt to go for a Gen-5 air superiority plane. Most likely US - JSF, since I doubt they'll get the F-22.

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## Gripen9

akramishaqkhan said:


> J10C will replace Mirages overtime. However where Mirages within the PAF became SOW platform, the J10C provides the PAF with a more capable multi-role fighter. This will necessitate a change in tactics. Where in the past the PAF tactics was to primarily use the Mirages for quick ingress, release and then a speedy egress (given its 2.2Mach) with no loitering for air engagement, while other supporting units provide air support like F-16 and JF-17. The challenge with India's newer acquisitions was BVR engagement where our supporting units would be at a disadvantage.
> 
> I expect that the J10C along with JF17s will make a strike package (given both will have PL15). Backstopping them usually along border or within Pak border will be F16s. This will make Indian counter action very difficult and subject ot losses. They'll attempt to utilize their AA Missiles but that is not as potent as people think. Besides they'll paint themselves very quickly and open themselves to counter action on a number of fronts. J10C is big trouble for India.
> 
> With J10C, tactics will change, and PK penetration and offensive power increases considerably.
> 
> I foresee an Indian reaction to J10C be in the form of increasing their Rafael numbers. They'll also attempt to go for a Gen-5 air superiority plane. Most likely US - JSF, since I doubt they'll get the F-22.



So India will be allowed to acquire F-35 while deploying S-400s?

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## HAIDER

Goenitz said:


> matlab pathan bhai ki tarah barha charha k pesh karty hain?


kind of ... sometimes he shoots a substanceless statement....later found to be a hoax ..


Skywalker said:


> arey bhai kia mobile phone network ki baath ker rahey ho jo itni jaldi generations change kerlayga.


lolzz... phone network he lagta ha.. haar targ G he G ha

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## ziaulislam

GOAT said:


> I’ve read a few members saying J-10C is a replacement for mirage fighters which I understand are primarily strike units. I also saw that Sheikh Rasheed noted the j-10s are being inducted to counter Rafales which seems to contradict the notion of J-10s replacing mirages. Am I misunderstanding something? Would appreciate any insight on the role of J-10s.


Because mirages w


Polestar 2 said:


> I think order was place right after Shaheen 2020. J-10C and KJ-200 join that exercise for first time.
> 
> PLAAF J-10C participant are given total unrestricted asset utilised during that exercise and score major knockout of PAF side.


doubt it
I think was somewhere in 2017 when we realized f16 arent coming

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## Pappa Alpha

Gripen9 said:


> So India will be allowed to acquire F-35 while deploying S-400s?


Unlikely

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## StructE

GOAT said:


> Thanks, can you please elaborate on why you believe f16 b50/52 are roughly equivalent to the J10C. I am no fighter plane expert, just a casual.


USAF do not consider F-16 + AIM120 C5 equal to J-10 + PL15E, there is a lot of concern in USAF top brass about the capabilities of PL-15.

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## kursed

There's a reason USAF has been working on AIM-260.

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## Irfan Baloch

Windjammer said:


> Don't want to jump to any conclusions but J-10 may not be the only thing happening.
> 
> View attachment 804342


some of the cuts and the edge dimensions look very retro. reminiscent of 1970s and 80s era jets that were ahead of their time back then. Euro fighter also gives away that impression

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## MH.Yang

GOAT said:


> Thanks, can you please elaborate on why you believe f16 b50/52 are roughly equivalent to the J10C. I am no fighter plane expert, just a casual.




I am not a fighter plane expert, just a leisure military enthusiast. 

This post is just my personal opinion:








Let me compare these four aircraft: F16b50 / 52, F16e / F, J10b / C and Rafale


The world's active fighters are roughly divided into four types by engine: single middle push, single large push, double middle push and double large push. single middle push includes F/A50, JAS39,JF17, LCA and mirage2000; single large push has F16 and J10; double middle push has Rafale...



defence.pk

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## MastanKhan

StructE said:


> French are master of creating hype and up selling their mid-tier tech.




Hi,

The indians wanted to believe in the hype---the indians needed the hype---the French created more of it---.

It satisfied Mr. Modi and his cohorts---and that is what a sale is all about---.

The BUYER is happy---the seller willingly obliged.

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## untitled

Bilal. said:


> What about all the non-ROSE mirages? What utility will they have and should/will they continue to serve?





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There are even suppliers who'll give stand-alone hardpoints you can attach to any fighter and remotely fire said SOWs from the cockpit.


How about using the as buddy tankers for the rest of the fleet?

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## ARMalik

Hey THERE ARE *21-GUESTS* ON THIS THREAD ...... NEVER SEEN SO MANY OF *THESE GUEST* BEFORE, WONDER WHY?

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## Zarvan

Windjammer said:


> Don't want to jump to any conclusions but J-10 may not be the only thing happening.
> 
> View attachment 804342


Yes. Hints and Reports of other stuff are also coming. INSHALLAH by help of ALLAH and his mercy lot of things will come.

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## Rafi

Some stuff that is here or is coming will never be revealed or not for decades......nuff said.

"You will never surprise us, we will always surprise you"

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## akramishaqkhan

Gripen9 said:


> So India will be allowed to acquire F-35 while deploying S-400s?


US and India are attached at the hip. That relationship is a direct challenge to Pakistan’s national security. There is no reason to think otherwise and both those parties are actively working at solidifying it. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.

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## Polestar 2

akramishaqkhan said:


> US and India are attached at the hip. That relationship is a direct challenge to Pakistan’s national security. There is no reason to think otherwise and both those parties are actively working at solidifying it. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.


But problem is US do not see equal of India. It's more like a master and servant which India need to listen to command of US. 

US wants India to give up Russian arm but at same time want India to be loyal to US.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

ARMalik said:


> Don't worry, you will get some goods news about F-16s as well in the next few months.


Even if the USA clears PAF F16s for the Turkish OZGUR (meaning free) upgrades it would suffice. According to the Turkish undersecretary for Defence Industries, they are OK even with the US rejection for V upgrades...

Turkey will be looking for alternative sources to increase the jet #s as a stopgap solution. Who knows they may opt for J-10C if the PAF is happy with it, and support with the maintenance and overhaul services....

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## ARMalik

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Even if the USA clears PAF F16s for the Turkish OZGUR (meaning free) upgrades it would suffice. According to the Turkish undersecretary for Defence Industries, they are OK even with the US rejection for V upgrades...
> 
> Turkey will be looking for alternative sources to increase the jet #s as a stopgap solution. Who knows they may opt for J-10C if the PAF is happy with it, and support with the maintenance and overhaul services....



That will be wonderful if our brother Turks decide to buy J-10s as well.

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## _NOBODY_

ARMalik said:


> That will be wonderful if our brother Turks decide to buy J-10s as well.


Why would Turkey do that? Unlike us they have no problems getting F-16V, if it was possible for Pakistan to easily get F-16s then PAF would have never gone for J-10.


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## Polestar 2

ARMalik said:


> That will be wonderful if our brother Turks decide to buy J-10s as well.


Not possible. Given the S-400 saga. Turkey will be kick out of NATO if they buy J-10C.

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## ARMalik

An older news article from Business Insider Australia from 2018.









China's J-10 fighter jet may be getting some impressive upgrades to make it more stealthy


China's main fighter jet, the J-10, may be being tested with new upgrades that will increase its maneuverability and make it more stealthy.




www.businessinsider.com.au




*China’s J-10 fighter jet may be getting some impressive upgrades to make it more stealthy*


*A photo on a Chinese defence magazine suggests that China’s main fighter jet, the J-10, is being tested with new upgrades that will increase its manoeuvrability and make it more stealthy.*
*The upgrades appear to be the addition of a new type of thrust vectoring nozzle, as well as physical changes to parts of the jet.*
*China has been aggressively pursuing stealth capabilities and the image suggests that China is looking for ways to make their aircraft deadlier.*
China’s Chengdu J-10 multirole fighter jet may be getting an engine upgrade that will increase its manoeuvrability and make it harder to detect on radar.

Defence News reports that a photo of a J-10C in an unknown Chinese defence magazine features an engine that appears to be equipped with a thrust vectoring nozzle. The engine also appears to have sawtooth edges, according to Defence News, and the bottom part of the compartment that houses the fighter’s drogue parachute removed.

The new nozzle will enable the J-10 to be capable of thrust vectoring, sometimes referred to as thrust vector control or TVC. TVC happens when the engine itself is directed in different directions, directly manipulating the thrust generated from the engine.

This gives the pilot greater control of altitude and angular velocity, and enables the aircraft to make better turns substantially increasing manoeuvrability.

The new nozzle suggests that the Chinese have made gains in their attempts to add TVC technology to fighter jets.
But increased manoeuvrability is not the only thing that the engine provides. The sawtooth edges around the nozzle are similar to those used by other stealth aircraft like the F-35 and F-22. Russia’s Sukhoi Su-30/35 Flanker series of fighters also utilise the same edges.

The J-10C is actually an improved version of the J-10. It features enhanced 4th generation electronics like an active electronically scanned array radar, and also has a diverterless supersonic inlet, an air intake system that diverts boundary layer airflow away from the aircraft’s engine lowering its radar cross section.

The J-10 itself is rumoured to be a Chinese copy of the American F-16.

In the 1990s, Israel was hoping to make its own domestic fighter jet that could compete on the international market. It required assistance from US companies and ended up making the IAI Lavi, a fighter that heavily resembled the F-16.

After it was discovered that up to $US1.3 billion of US aid to Israel was spent on the development of the Lavi, and that the US was essentially funding a potential competitor, the project was canceled.

The plans for the fighter were then said to have been sold to China. Some US government officials even believed that Israel and China were collaborating with each other to develop the fighter. China and Israel have both denied all such claims.

China has been aggresively pursuing stealth capability for its jets. Last September, the government officially announced that its stealth fighter jet, the J-20, was in active service.


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## HAIDER

ARMalik said:


> That will be wonderful if our brother Turks decide to buy J-10s as well.


They interested more in SU57 .


*Russian fighter jets still in the game if Turkey-US F-16s talks fail*
*BY DAILY SABAH*
ISTANBUL OCT 19, 2021 - 2:55 PM GMT+3




Russian President Vladimir Putin and President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan inspect a Sukhoi Su-57 fifth-generation fighter during the MAKS-2019 International Aviation and Space Salon in Zhukovsky outside Moscow, Russia, Aug. 27, 2019. (Reuters Photo)


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## Polestar 2

_NOBODY_ said:


> Why would Turkey do that? Unlike us they have no problems getting F-16V, if it was possible for Pakistan to easily get F-16s then PAF would have never gone for J-10.


I think turkey also have problem getting F-16V , the friction between US and Turkey are getting worst. Plus you cannot guarantee future will be worst and further support will might cease in future.

A very big reason PAF goes for J-10C even F-16V will be available to them now.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

ARMalik said:


> That will be wonderful if our brother Turks decide to buy J-10s as well.


The Turkish authorities are extremely reluctant to buy the Russian platforms for the obvious reasons. With so much acrimony and distrust shrouding the defense relations with the West, I think the Turkish options are very limited. To counter the Greek Rafales, additional platforms are required. But the problem is to quicly establish an efficient support structure and putting the new jets into the existing network bypassing the NATO protocols and bottlenecks. With J-10c PAF may help them enormously in all aspects including linking them with the existing F-16s, AWACS, EW etc. via buffers....

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## xuxu1457

many people said that J10 COPY OF F16, IFV ETC
they should learn more about chengdu J9 FIGHTER








Chengdu J-9 - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org

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## _NOBODY_

Polestar 2 said:


> I think turkey also have problem getting F-16V , the friction between US and Turkey are getting worst. Plus you cannot guarantee future will be worst and further support will might cease in future.
> 
> A very big reason PAF goes for J-10C even F-16V will be available to them now.


Turkey is a NATO country at the end of the day and there is a limit to how much pressure the United States can put on Turkey in matters of defence. Turkey can upgrade its F-16s to its heart's content, Turkey can put its own AESA radar in its F-16s if it wishes.

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## raja786

ARMalik said:


> Hey THERE ARE *21-GUESTS* ON THIS THREAD ...... NEVER SEEN SO MANY OF *THESE GUEST* BEFORE, WONDER WHY?


28 now most likely from Eastern border side.

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## HAIDER

*PAF Buying J-10C? J-10C Model With Interesting Serial Number Spotted at PAF Base Masroor ( its 50 jets not 25)*
January 23, 2021 Air 3,468 Views






J-10C plaque for PAF squadron Bandits


An interesting photo of the Chinese Chengdu J-10 Single-engine, lightweight fighter aircraft model spotted at PAF AB Masroor is circulating on social media.
The interesting thing about the J-10C model is the serial number of “21-601” and PAF squadron Bandits marking on it.

No. 7 Squadron, nicknamed the Bandits, is a fighter squadron of the Pakistan Air Force situated at PAF Base Masroor, Karachi which operates Dassault Mirage III fighters jets. Looks like PAF has finally decided to buy J-10C which
No. 7 Squadron, nicknamed the Bandits, is a fighter squadron of the Pakistan Air Force situated at PAF Base Masroor, Karachi which operates Dassault Mirage III fighters jets. Looks like PAF has finally decided to buy J-10C which
No. 7 Squadron, nicknamed the Bandits, is a fighter squadron of the Pakistan Air Force situated at PAF Base Masroor, Karachi which operates Dassault Mirage III fighters jets. Looks like PAF has finally decided to buy Chinese Chengdu J-10C which would replace old Mirage jets.
While the option for acquiring the J-10 jets had been on Pakistan’s table for quite some time it was halted with the joint production of the JF-17 fighter jets. Pakistan started discussing the purchase of the Chinese J-10 in 2009, but after the talk of joint production of the JF-17 jet started, it was put on hold. After the Rafale jet came to the Indian Air Force, Pakistan started that discussion again.

In September , 2020 Indian media sources claimed that the high-level government officers have informed that the discussions have resumed again among the Pakistani and Chinese officials for the procurement of J-10C jets for the PAF. Along with the J-10, _*Pakistan has also requested the PL-10 and PL-15 short-range and long-range air to air missiles.
According to sources, a 13-member team of Pakistani officials went to China on October 22 to finalize the deal. China and Pakistan finalized the discussion of buying 50 J-10 (CE) fighter jets*_
The J-10CE (the export version of the J-10C), is expected to neutralize some of the Indian threats and pose an additional challenge for the Indian Air Force. Like the F-16, the J-10 possesses a highly agile, aerodynamically unstable airframe that is stabilized by a computer in its fly-by-wire flight control system. The J-10C model is believed to have capabilities similar to a 4.5-generation fighter jet something similar to Indian Rafales.
The most significant enhancement is the inclusion of an AESA radar. AESA radars are the current gold standard in air warfare, boasting higher resolution, and greater discretion, and resistance to jamming. rs on its latest fighters.
Powered by a Russian engine giving it a maximum static thrust of approximately 123 kN, the single-engine tail-less canard delta wing J-10C is an upgraded version of its predecessors, sporting an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) fire control radar and is made of composite materials for high strength and lower weight.
J-10C also participated in the recently concluded Pak-China Joint Air Exercise “Shaheen-IX” At PAF Base Bholari. Surprisingly, the J-10C was not sporting any markings of PLAAF, nor an identification number. However, the J-11BS arrived in normal livery.




China’s J-10C and J-11B fighters simulated India’s Rafale and Su-30 jets respectively in mock battles at the recently concluded Shaheen-9 China-Pakistan air exercises.
Many aspects of the J-10C mid-sized fighter jet, including the size, aerodynamic characteristics, aviation and weapon systems and overall combat capability, are comparable to the France-made Rafale, a type of fighter jet in service with the Indian Air Force, Fu said, noting that the J-11B heavy fighter jet has very similar appearance with India’s Su-30 fighter jet but with superior avionics system.
During Shaheen-9, air forces from both sides focused on “large scale confrontation, including large scale aerial battles and use of forces in mass and close-quarters aerial support,” CCTV said. More than 200 sorties were conducted by both sides, to boost combat capabilities in learning from each other.

@The Eagle here is detail ..

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## Clutch



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## Raja Porus

SQ8 said:


> That’s because every other person on PDF thinks they will lose their paycheck if they cannot win an argument on PDF or they will stoop to the level of an Bhakt troll using loghorrea or worse.
> 
> Pakistanis(including myself) have problems balancing being productively critical or just criticism and negativity to assuage and satisfy inner guilt or victim mentality.


Exactly Moreover, now everyone just discusses equipment or their technical details and not their employment/ tactics. Everyone just wants the news of new eqpt but no one writes about planning, tactics, deployment according to ORBATS, scenarios. Moreover the Think tanks who used to post/ elaborate and take active part in such threads have either left or post rarely (IF such threads are created in the first place).
For instance you can compare all the threads of 2021 which will only be on procurement woth those of 2019/20 which will be on conflict analysis, operational planning of scenarios etc.

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## HAIDER

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Exactly Moreover, now everyone just discusses equipment or their technical details and not their employment/ tactics. Everyone just wants the news of new eqpt but no one writes about planning, tactics, deployment according to ORBATS, scenarios. Moreover the Think tanks who used to post/ elaborate and take active part in such threads have either left or post rarely (IF such threads are created in the first place).
> For instance you can compare all the threads of 2021 which will only be on procurement woth those of 2019/20 which will be on conflict analysis, operational planning of scenarios etc.


They are going Masroor base. Most probably equipped for a navel strike mission. Near Indian Gujrat and surrounding ports. India has 36 Rafale and Pak has bought 50 to counter single engine agile strike fighter ..

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## untitled

Imran Khan said:


> inshallah FAKE NEWS HOGI . i am still in hope that this news if fake .


Look at the bright side. This jet has a built-in webcam to make Tiktok videos:





Still not convinced you can always revisit this old thread:




__





J-10 might not needed as they don't add anything to PAF's capability


HAhahahaha We are still adding and Making JF-17 Sir Does that refrain to add any other Platform?? Going to a new platform is no easy task we will have to setup an entire infrastructure for that and from what i remember j10 was rejected for future fc 31 deal



defence.pk

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

_NOBODY_ said:


> Turkey is a NATO country at the end of the day and there is a limit to how much pressure the United States can put on Turkey in matters of defence. Turkey can upgrade its F-16s to its heart's content, Turkey can put its own AESA radar in its F-16s if it wishes.


Limit?!? The last time they're not even giving tires for the Phantoms after the Cyprus liberation...

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## Imran Khan

untitled said:


> Look at the bright side. This jet has a built-in webcam to make Tiktok videos:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still not convinced you can always visit this old thread:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-10 might not needed as they don't add anything to PAF's capability
> 
> 
> HAhahahaha We are still adding and Making JF-17 Sir Does that refrain to add any other Platform?? Going to a new platform is no easy task we will have to setup an entire infrastructure for that and from what i remember j10 was rejected for future fc 31 deal
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


i dont like its look even

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## Deino

HAIDER said:


> ....
> J-10C also participated in the recently concluded Pak-China Joint Air Exercise “Shaheen-IX” At PAF Base Bholari. *Surprisingly, the J-10C was not sporting any markings of PLAAF, nor an identification number. However, the J-11BS arrived in normal livery.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> @The Eagle here is detail ..





I really don't know how often this BS has to be corrected again!? That's plain wrong, these J-10Cs had regular PLAAF markings and even their serial numbers were "clearly" visible for those who know where to look and even more for those who don't want to ignore the facts since this theory fits their wishful thinking.

The J-10Cs participating were from the 177th Air Brigade at Dingxin as this one no. 78082 clearly shown.

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## HAIDER

@Deino ... it seems Pakistan getting ws10 engine ...
J-10 Fighters with AL-31 WS-10 Engines










Deino said:


> I really don't know how often this BS has to be corrected again!? That's plain wrong, these J-10Cs had regular PLAAF markings and even their serial numbers were "clearly" visible for those who know where to look and even more for those who don't want to ignore the facts since this theory fits their wishful thinking.
> 
> The J-10Cs participating were from the 177th Air Brigade at Dingxin as this one no. 78082 clearly shown.
> 
> View attachment 804809


They may pull the planes from PLAAF inventory, because contract was signed on Oct 22nd and already made delivery of 25 planes .....may be am wrong .. but that is a very fast delivery ...

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## Bossman

araz said:


> I dont think there is a single sane person who would think that aWar between 2 Nuclear armed nations can remain limited. If you look at the aftermath of 27/2 if Indians had lobbed missiles across the border it would have gotten a response back in kind leading to more problems. Ithink this was the precise reason the Indians had to rely on "missile dodgers" medals for its Air force as a consolation rather than a reprisal in the form of a missile attack.
> A


Hinduvatas are not sane


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## Deino

HAIDER said:


> @Deino ... it seems Pakistan getting ws10 engine ...
> J-10 Fighters with AL-31 WS-10 Engines
> View attachment 804810
> 
> View attachment 804811




Yes, that is well known since months and no-one with a bit of understanding in CAC's business would have questioned this ... I just wanted to ask you to better check your sources, this report posted above is pure BS, these were regular PLAAF J-10Cs and everybody knows it, and from all we know, the PAF's birds won't go to No. 7 Squadron but the 25th or was it the 15th?).


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## Deino

HAIDER said:


> ...
> 
> They may pull the planes from PLAAF inventory, because contract was signed on Oct 22nd and already made delivery of 25 planes .....may be am wrong .. but that is a very fast delivery ...




who said this that "contract was signed on Oct 22nd" and even more no-one thinks they "already made delivery of 25 planes"?? From all the reliable members say, they will arrive in February and they surely won't come from PLAAF stocks, since the PLAAF has only established its first own J-10C unit this year of the variant using the WS-10. So there are no PLAAF stocks to take them from.

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## HAIDER

Shabi1 said:


> Now only if we can get the PDM walai to delay their activities after 23rd march, its a poor choice of dates for a dharna. They can hate IK, that's their own choice but in the process they routinely cross the line and be anti Pakistan.


They are planning on the night of the 23rd of March ...


Deino said:


> who said this that "contract was signed on Oct 22nd" and even more no-one thinks they "already made delivery of 25 planes"?? From all the reliable members say, they will arrive in February and they surely won't come from PLAAF stocks, since the PLAAF has only established its first own J-10C unit this year of the variant using the WS-10. So there are no PLAAF stocks to take them from.


Well, wait and see, minister claim 25 will fly on March 23rd this year... but you never know, a few 4 or 5 flies for symbolism ... let's wait for 23rd of March.


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## PanzerKiel

HAIDER said:


> @Deino ... it seems Pakistan getting ws10 engine ...
> J-10 Fighters with AL-31 WS-10 Engines
> View attachment 804810
> 
> View attachment 804811
> 
> 
> They may pull the planes from PLAAF inventory, because contract was signed on Oct 22nd and already made delivery of 25 planes .....may be am wrong .. but that is a very fast delivery ...


Pakistanis are always pulling a fast one on the Indians......some of the previous examples include procurement of F-86s, PN subs from 60s, F-16 vs Mirage 2000, M109 vs Archer / Catapult, tanks, ATGMS (we used Cobra in 65, they used ENTAC in 71), toss bombing...the list is endless....
...and here is the lesson for all weak states....in order to survive against bigger enemies, you ought to negate the other side's superiority, thats how you survive for centuries....

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## Deino

HAIDER said:


> ..
> Well, wait and see, minister claim 25 will fly on March 23rd this year... but you never know, a few 4 or 5 flies for symbolism ... let's wait for 23rd of March.




Yes for sure, but even if a few are already in Pakistan for testing - which won't be a surprise - and if they deliver them in February, what has this to do with your claims, they are from PLAAF stocks, the contract was signed only in October and so on? What's the source of your claims since no-one here says so?


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## HAIDER

PanzerKiel said:


> Pakistanis area always pulling a fast one on the Indians......some of the previous examples include procurement of F-86s, PN subs from 60s, F-16 vs Mirage 2000, M109 vs Archer / Catapult, tanks, ATGMS (we used Cobra in 65, they used ENTAC in 71), toss bombing...the list is endless....
> ...and here is the lesson for all weak states....in order to survive against bigger enemies, you ought to negate the other side's superiority, thats how you survive for centuries....


If this contract is executed within weeks then PAF has smelled something in the air .... and Chinese also knows something is going on the border ...probing activities may be very high ..Plus, maybe US doesn't want Pak to use F16 in the next encounter ...AIM120 hardly miss the target ...and Indian love play on dead wicket ..


Deino said:


> Yes for sure, but even if a few are already in Pakistan for testing - which won't be a surprise - and if they deliver them in February, what has this to do with your claims, they are from PLAAF stocks, the contract was signed only in October and so on? What's the source of your claims since no-one here says so?


i assume ..may be pulled from PLAAF inventory .. i have no source to confirm...

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## PanzerKiel

HAIDER said:


> If this contract is executed within weeks then PAF has smelled something in the air .... and Chinese also knows something is going on the border ...probing activities may be very high ..Plus, maybe US doesn't want Pak to use F16 in the next encounter ...


Solid smell was in the air since 2020....once i saw the fully loaded sample loitering around on our tarmacs / in our airspace....it was truly a sight, i even had that pic somewhere but cant find it....hell.....why look for pics once you can see such stuff everyother day.....

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## Mentee

Deino said:


> who said this that "contract was signed on Oct 22nd" and even more no-one thinks they "already made delivery of 25 planes"?? From all the reliable members say, they will arrive in February and they surely won't come from PLAAF stocks, since the PLAAF has only established its first own J-10C unit this year of the variant using the WS-10. So there are no PLAAF stocks to take them from.




Dieno , brother, will you let us buy anything? Like even a turboprop?

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## R Wing

SecularNationalist said:


> Let's see....
> I can't trust sheeda Tali statements



How did he even know about the J10C? Haha.

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## akramishaqkhan

Deino said:


> Yes for sure, but even if a few are already in Pakistan for testing - which won't be a surprise - and if they deliver them in February, what has this to do with your claims, they are from PLAAF stocks, the contract was signed only in October and so on? What's the source of your claims since no-one here says so?


Gents,
PAF has been training on these planes for months, perhaps longer. This is not an overnight deal. PAF stocks are not from PLAAF. They are a completely new batch, with PAF specific mods. Why are we speculating on things that have no basis in fact or even rumor. The situation is more straight forward than we think. Let me tell you that when Bajwa sat in the J10C, the deal, dev and training had already begun. With Shaheen exercises they were developing operational tactics. When these planes arrive they’ll be more integrated than people think.

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## Deino

Mentee said:


> Dieno , brother, will you let us buy anything? Like even a turboprop?




Not sure why you rate a correction of and pointing towards a false claim as if I don't want Pakistan to buy anything?

In fact I wish them to buy anything including J-16s, J-20s or whatever - in fact especially the J-16/16D combo would be an ideal asset IMO - but that does not make it real!

In fact - at least those who know me - I'm standing firmly behind Pakistan, the PAF and the Sino-Pakistan friendship, but what i don't like - in fact I really hate - is this constant wishful thinking as if Pakistan like a tree years old kid in the supermarket can tell her mum "I want this and that" and expect to get it right the way?! To think the PLAAF is diverting a just recently established J-10C unit for Pakistan is ridiculous and similar if the contract was just signed in October it would/will take months if not years to deliver them. Surely in case of war, this could be done quite quickly, but not now since the production rate at CAC needs to be increased and so on ... that all takes time.

As such again, I wish they could buy whatever they like or better the PAF need, but real life is rarely easy and only unfortunately most wishes are either unrealistic (like getting J-15s, J-16s, J-20s) or not cheep.

Hope this clarifies a bit my standpoint.



akramishaqkhan said:


> Gents,
> PAF has been training on these planes for months, perhaps longer. This is not an overnight deal. PAF stocks are not from PLAAF. They are a completely new batch, with PAF specific mods. Why are we speculating on things that have no basis in fact or even rumor. The situation is more straight forward than we think. Let me tell you that when Bajwa sat in the J10C, the deal, dev and training had already begun. With Shaheen exercises they were developing operational tactics. When these planes arrive they’ll be more integrated than people think.



Exactly my point but I think you need to quote @HAIDER and not me, I'm well aware of what you said!

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## Ghessan

ARMalik said:


> Hey THERE ARE *21-GUESTS* ON THIS THREAD ...... NEVER SEEN SO MANY OF *THESE GUEST* BEFORE, WONDER WHY?



saw them even double than that after 27 Feb, even people kept signed out and visit the forum not to be detected.

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## akramishaqkhan

Deino said:


> Not sure why you rate a correction of and pointing towards a false claim as if I don't want Pakistan to buy anything?
> 
> In fact I wish them to buy anything including J-16s, J-20s or whatever - in fact especially the J-16/16D combo would be an ideal asset IMO - but that does not make it real!
> 
> In fact - at least those who know me - I'm standing firmly behind Pakistan, the PAF and the Sino-Pakistan friendship, but what i don't like - in fact I really hate - is this constant wishful thinking as if Pakistan like a tree years old kid in the supermarket can tell her mum "I want this and that" and expect to get it right the way?! To think the PLAAF is diverting a just recently established J-10C unit for Pakistan is ridiculous and similar if the contract was just signed in October it would/will take months if not years to deliver them. Surely in case of war, this could be done quite quickly, but not now since the production rate at CAC needs to be increased and so on ... that all takes time.
> 
> As such again, I wish they could buy whatever they like or better the PAF need, but real life is rarely easy and only unfortunately most wishes are either unrealistic (like getting J-15s, J-16s, J-20s) or not cheep.
> 
> Hope this clarifies a bit my standpoint.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly my point but I think you need to quote @HAIDER and not me, I'm well aware of what you said!


Yaar I am not pointing at you. Just trying to calm this frenzy talk back and forth about contract being signed in Oct and Chinese squadrons being seconded to PAF. That is not the way this deal has progressed.

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## PanzerKiel

Ghessan said:


> saw them even double than that after 27 Feb, even people kept signed out and visit the forum not to be detected.


For all our guests here....

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## HAIDER

akramishaqkhan said:


> Gents,
> PAF has been training on these planes for months, perhaps longer. This is not an overnight deal. PAF stocks are not from PLAAF. They are a completely new batch, with PAF specific mods. Why are we speculating on things that have no basis in fact or even rumor. The situation is more straight forward than we think. Let me tell you that when Bajwa sat in the J10C, the deal, dev and training had already begun. With Shaheen exercises they were developing operational tactics. When these planes arrive they’ll be more integrated than people think.


J10 was pending since Musharraf era when Russians refused to provide engines due to massive Indian pressure. But now WS10 seems to pass all testing, presented to Pakistan. Same issue Pak is facing in Turkish attack helicopter engines .. Anyway ..hopefully, we see them flying on March 23... or before ... those who live in Islamabad get your camera ready for rehearsals

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## SecularNationalist

R Wing said:


> How did he even know about the J10C? Haha.


Well he is federal minister after all. He probably heard that in his higher circles.
But again no official confirmation so far and we heard that many times before and later just turned out to be rumors. Plus Sheeda Tali has a tendency to exaggerate things.


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## Pakistan Space Agency

ARMalik said:


> Hey THERE ARE *21-GUESTS* ON THIS THREAD ...... NEVER SEEN SO MANY OF *THESE GUEST* BEFORE, WONDER WHY?


I don't think this is a laughing matter.

The enemy is out there to gather as much information as possible. The more they know, the more they can prepare counter measures.


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## RealNapster

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Turkey will be looking for alternative sources to increase the jet #s as a stopgap solution. Who knows they may opt for J-10C if the PAF is happy with it, and support with the maintenance and overhaul services.



Or PAF sell its F-16s to Turkey and instead buy more J-10C. Like increase J-10c count to 150-160

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## Pakistan Space Agency

RealNapster said:


> Or PAF sell its F-16s to Turkey and instead buy more J-10C. Like increase J-10c count to 150-160


That might give a heart attack to F-Sola walay.

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## maverick1977

Back on Sep 10 i posted this. Got confirmation in July 2021 from sources that J10Cs are coming.

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## Titanium100

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> That might give a heart attack to F-Sola walay.



No Pakistan is not replacing the F-16s they are competent and match the Rafales but j10C is likely for air superiority over the rafale's hence JF-17 Block 3, F16s and J10Cs will be stable for the next 7-8 years. Pakistan is banking on MIUS and TFX in order to continue the dominance over India when they induct 5G around that same time hence it is a tit for tat that continues and also J20s and FC35s are an option if India makes another move we will respond with our own moves..


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## Shabi1

Mav3rick said:


> Yes, exactly......especially when Imran Khan was so considerate with his Dharna; right?
> 
> On a serious note, J-10C against Rafale!!! I wonder how good the J-10C are and how they would perform against Rafale, Spectra and the French BVR.



PTI Dharna:
Election recount and corruption evidences not being pursued by relevant departments, legal channels being stalled because accused in power.

PDM Dharna:
We don't like IK.

Only thing in common for both is dharnas have always been and will continue to be unsuccessful in demands. Only a little pressure.

Now on a serious note neither J-10 or Rafale battle tested but both represent top tier capabilities of their respective manufacturing countries. I think in the end what would matter would be level of integration of those platforms with their air forces and their capability to use them to their strengths.

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## The Eagle

Imagine, PAF J-10CP participates in exercise. J-10CP in Turkey against S-400 & (QATAR) Rafale at once while on other hand, India has no chance to engage or get some info on J-10.

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## _NOBODY_

The Eagle said:


> Imagine, PAF J-10CP participates in exercise. J-10CP in Turkey against S-400 & (QATAR) Rafale at once while on other hand, India has no chance to engage or get some info on J-10.
> 
> View attachment 804835


Will China allows us to use J-10Cs in an exercise with a NATO country?

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## Ghessan

_NOBODY_ said:


> Will China allows us to use J-10Cs in an exercise with a NATO country?



this question goes both ways. Would US or NATO allow a NATO country "Turkey" to participate with F-16 in an exercise with a Chinese platform?

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## The Eagle

_NOBODY_ said:


> Will China allows us to use J-10Cs in an exercise with a NATO country?



PLAAF J-10C performed against Grippen as well.

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## NA71

SecularNationalist said:


> Well he is federal minister after all. He probably heard that in his higher circles.
> But again no official confirmation so far and we heard that many times before and later just turned out to be rumors. Plus Sheeda Tali has a tendency to exaggerate things.



No statement from Nawaz sharif like J-10C was designed by me and PL15 by Abid Sher Ali

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## Riz

NA71 said:


> No statement from Nawaz sharif like J-10C was designed by me and PL15 by Abid Sher Ali


J-10 ka name bhi J-Tend hona chaheay nawaz sharif ki Tind k name par

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## Ghessan

NA71 said:


> No statement from Nawaz sharif like J-10C was designed by me and PL15 by Abid Sher Ali



he provided technical assistance in "tomhoka" missile, he also bring this missile on his shoulder and handed over to our scientists who then ...

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## siegecrossbow

_NOBODY_ said:


> Will China allows us to use J-10Cs in an exercise with a NATO country?



Why not? How else could it get information on Western jets?

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## Goenitz

The thread title chnaged? So we are getting J10-CP? All the memebers have been talking about J-10C so far!
I hope changes are made only in avionic and EW suite, but not in radar and PL-15.


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## Cool_Soldier

J10 C are coming for sure. Do not spread rumors and disappointment please.
A potent plane indeed in current scenario.

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## truthseeker2010

Titanium100 said:


> No Pakistan is not replacing the F-16s they are competent and match the Rafales but j10C is likely for air superiority over the rafale's hence JF-17 Block 3, F16s and J10Cs will be stable for the next 7-8 years. Pakistan is banking on MIUS and TFX in order to continue the dominance over India when they induct 5G around that same time hence it is a tit for tat that continues and also J20s and FC35s are an option if India makes another move we will respond with our own moves..



No 5G till 2030 atleast for both India and pak
Pak will be busy with Jf b3/4 and j10
Ind will be going through MRCA (most probable rafale) and Tejas.
India's 5g might be Amca or Fgfa. 
Pak's 5g most probable would be j31.

F35 is out of question for India.


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## siegecrossbow

RangeMaster said:


> 欢迎
> 
> View attachment 804262



This specific bird (619) is bound for Pakistan? If so, it confirms that domestic engine will be used.


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## retaxis

congrats to Pakistan!

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## Battlion25

NA71 said:


> No statement from Nawaz sharif like J-10C was designed by me and PL15 by Abid Sher Ali



Were people expecting this.. 

But aside from that what did Nawaz actully buy during his era? Imo he didn't do much for the military in his era unlike this government


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## Imran Khan

The Eagle said:


> Imagine, PAF J-10CP participates in exercise. J-10CP in Turkey against S-400 & (QATAR) Rafale at once while on other hand, India has no chance to engage or get some info on J-10.
> 
> View attachment 804835

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## RangeMaster

siegecrossbow said:


> This specific bird (619) is bound for Pakistan? If so, it confirms that domestic engine will be used.


No.. Just random image from internet. 
One of PLAAF birds.

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## The Eagle

May be if J-10CP, serial 601 might prove this plaque pretty well.

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## untitled

Chinese have been making flankers with retractable refuelling probes for ages. When is the J-10 going to get one?


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## The Eagle

untitled said:


> Chinese have been making flankers with retractable refuelling probes for ages. When is the J-10 going to one?



F-16s don't have refueling probes while many USAF platforms have. They never had it for Vipers though. Why?


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## untitled

The Eagle said:


> F-16s don't have refueling probes while many USAF platforms have. They never had it for Vipers though. Why?


All USAF fast jets have the boom refuelling receptacle. It is by design conformal

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## Imran Khan

i hope news is just misunderstanding . china will send 25 PLAF J-10 for participate in 23 march flypass

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## The Eagle

untitled said:


> All USAF fast jets have the boom refuelling receptacle. It is by design conformal



Why boom & not probe on fighter jet? Then why not it is a design conformal having fixed Probe on J-10 or Mirage or even Rafale?


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## Zarvan

The Eagle said:


> Imagine, PAF J-10CP participates in exercise. J-10CP in Turkey against S-400 & (QATAR) Rafale at once while on other hand, India has no chance to engage or get some info on J-10.
> 
> View attachment 804835


After induction that is obvious next step to put it against Rafale and S 400.

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## The Eagle

PanzerKiel said:


> If one is wondering why the PAF’s IL-78 tankers cannot be used to support the F-16s, the answer lies in the fact that the F-16s utilize a different aerial refueling system than what the IL-78 is configured to use. The IL-78s refuel using the hose-and-drogue method, which is designed with a trailing hose with a receiver basket at its end, which connects to an external refuelling probe on the receiver.
> 
> The PAF’s Mirages – and in the short-term JF-17s – refuel using the hose-and-drogue method. On the other hand, the F-16s require a refuelling boom, which connects to a fuel receiver system in the fuselage. The main benefit behind boom-refuelling is the higher rate of fuel transfer. However, only U.S. designs utilize this method, the rest of the world – from the Western Europeans to the Chinese – depend on hose-and-drogue, which is simpler to integrate onto receiver as well as tanker platforms.
> 
> When the PAF began pursuing an in-flight tanker, it was fully aware of the F-16’s specific needs. It was for this reason that the PAF had originally hoped to secure the Airbus A310 Multi-Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) system for its fleet. The Airbus A310 MRTT was introduced in the early 2000s for the German and Canadian forces. Airbus Defence and Space (then known as the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company or EADS) utilized existing A310s for the MRTT modification, which imbued the airliner with not only a boom refueling probe but also wing-mounted hose-and-drogue probes.
> 
> The A310 MRTT was a comparatively low-cost option (considering the offering was primarily modification and added subsystems for surplus A310 airliners). Unfortunately for the PAF, Airbus had pivoted away from A310 MRTT and instead began to exclusively push the A330 MRTT.
> 
> While based on the Airbus A330 airliner, the A330 MRTT is offered as a new-built solution. In other words, the airframe is built with in-flight refuelling and military airlift tasks from the onset. While a very capable platform, the A330 MRTT was – and still is – a prohibitively expensive system for the PAF. The complete approximate unit cost of each A330 MRTT sits at $250 million U.S.
> 
> The PAF could have sought surplus KC-135s from the U.S., but shaky defence ties, as well as the prospect of dealing with heavily aged airframes, would have put a stop on that road. In effect, the PAF’s F-16s have been left with no in-flight refuelling support, which in some respects caps the fighter from achieving better operational potential. Without in-flight refuelling, the F-16s would have to depend on external fuel pods in order to undertake extended-range or long-endurance flights. These pods force a cost in having fewer available hardpoints for air-to-air and/or air-to-surface munitions.
> 
> The PAF’s plans for addressing this issue are not known. In fact, it simply may not pursue a solution at all. However, it may be worth – for discussion’s sake – exploring the idea of a new dual-configuration tanker (i.e. one capable of hose-and-drogue and boom-refuelling). The upfront cost of the A330 MRTT is certainly high, but other considerations ought to be made as well.
> 
> First, the A330 MRTT would not be restricted to just supporting the F-16s, it can support the PAF’s hose-and-drogue assets, such as the JF-17, as well.
> 
> Second, the A330 MRTT airframe is that of a commercially popular airliner, so it is an inherently fuel-efficient design. In fact, the A330 is powered by two turbofan engines (in contrast to the IL-78’s four), so the overall fuel demand of the A330 MRTT should be less than that of the IL-78. The airline aspect could also render the availability of spare parts and maintenance support a relatively low-cost effort.
> 
> Third, the A330 MRTT can carry passengers or cargo *in addition *to fuel. In other words, if the PAF deploy a fighter unit for exercises, a lone MRTT unit could (potentially) be sent to provide tanker support as well as serve as a general transport. Granted, this is conditional on a number of factors, such as the location of the exercise (e.g. a single MRTT to provide complete support for Red Flag may be unrealistic).
> 
> Granted, the PAF’s scope of acquisitions is not wide at this time. In fact, unless the PAF opts to configure its next-generation fighter for boom refuelling, the long-term utility of pursuing a boom-type tanker will diminish as F-16s are retired. Unless there is an infusion of additional – and fresher – F-16s, the necessity for the A330 MRTT for the sake of its boom-refuelling capability is limited. If the PAF is to consider this system, it would be on the basis of fuel efficiency, versatility, and maintenance costs (though this would require one to assume the IL-78 is costlier to maintain). Furthermore, the A330 MRTT is a platform the PAF could operate for many decades, which may help offset the high upfront price.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Discussion: Why Pakistan’s F-16s do not have in-flight refuelling support
> 
> 
> Foreword: This is not a news story, but a piece for the purpose of discussion. The details offered in this article as well as in subsequent parts are not authoritative pieces of information, but rathe...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quwa.org



Appreciated Sir. My question in reply to another question was in regard to make him think about the reasons as why not to have retractable Refueling Probe or fixed probe on J-10C.

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## untitled

The Eagle said:


> Why boom & not probe on fighter jet? Then why not it is a design conformal having fixed Probe on J-10 or Mirage or even Rafale?


Having less drag and better visibility is always a good thing and for some reason the French only installed the retractable probe on the Super Etendard


----------



## Imran Khan

PanzerKiel said:


> If one is wondering why the PAF’s IL-78 tankers cannot be used to support the F-16s, the answer lies in the fact that the F-16s utilize a different aerial refueling system than what the IL-78 is configured to use. The IL-78s refuel using the hose-and-drogue method, which is designed with a trailing hose with a receiver basket at its end, which connects to an external refuelling probe on the receiver.
> 
> The PAF’s Mirages – and in the short-term JF-17s – refuel using the hose-and-drogue method. On the other hand, the F-16s require a refuelling boom, which connects to a fuel receiver system in the fuselage. The main benefit behind boom-refuelling is the higher rate of fuel transfer. However, only U.S. designs utilize this method, the rest of the world – from the Western Europeans to the Chinese – depend on hose-and-drogue, which is simpler to integrate onto receiver as well as tanker platforms.
> 
> When the PAF began pursuing an in-flight tanker, it was fully aware of the F-16’s specific needs. It was for this reason that the PAF had originally hoped to secure the Airbus A310 Multi-Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) system for its fleet. The Airbus A310 MRTT was introduced in the early 2000s for the German and Canadian forces. Airbus Defence and Space (then known as the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company or EADS) utilized existing A310s for the MRTT modification, which imbued the airliner with not only a boom refueling probe but also wing-mounted hose-and-drogue probes.
> 
> The A310 MRTT was a comparatively low-cost option (considering the offering was primarily modification and added subsystems for surplus A310 airliners). Unfortunately for the PAF, Airbus had pivoted away from A310 MRTT and instead began to exclusively push the A330 MRTT.
> 
> While based on the Airbus A330 airliner, the A330 MRTT is offered as a new-built solution. In other words, the airframe is built with in-flight refuelling and military airlift tasks from the onset. While a very capable platform, the A330 MRTT was – and still is – a prohibitively expensive system for the PAF. The complete approximate unit cost of each A330 MRTT sits at $250 million U.S.
> 
> The PAF could have sought surplus KC-135s from the U.S., but shaky defence ties, as well as the prospect of dealing with heavily aged airframes, would have put a stop on that road. In effect, the PAF’s F-16s have been left with no in-flight refuelling support, which in some respects caps the fighter from achieving better operational potential. Without in-flight refuelling, the F-16s would have to depend on external fuel pods in order to undertake extended-range or long-endurance flights. These pods force a cost in having fewer available hardpoints for air-to-air and/or air-to-surface munitions.
> 
> The PAF’s plans for addressing this issue are not known. In fact, it simply may not pursue a solution at all. However, it may be worth – for discussion’s sake – exploring the idea of a new dual-configuration tanker (i.e. one capable of hose-and-drogue and boom-refuelling). The upfront cost of the A330 MRTT is certainly high, but other considerations ought to be made as well.
> 
> First, the A330 MRTT would not be restricted to just supporting the F-16s, it can support the PAF’s hose-and-drogue assets, such as the JF-17, as well.
> 
> Second, the A330 MRTT airframe is that of a commercially popular airliner, so it is an inherently fuel-efficient design. In fact, the A330 is powered by two turbofan engines (in contrast to the IL-78’s four), so the overall fuel demand of the A330 MRTT should be less than that of the IL-78. The airline aspect could also render the availability of spare parts and maintenance support a relatively low-cost effort.
> 
> Third, the A330 MRTT can carry passengers or cargo *in addition *to fuel. In other words, if the PAF deploy a fighter unit for exercises, a lone MRTT unit could (potentially) be sent to provide tanker support as well as serve as a general transport. Granted, this is conditional on a number of factors, such as the location of the exercise (e.g. a single MRTT to provide complete support for Red Flag may be unrealistic).
> 
> Granted, the PAF’s scope of acquisitions is not wide at this time. In fact, unless the PAF opts to configure its next-generation fighter for boom refuelling, the long-term utility of pursuing a boom-type tanker will diminish as F-16s are retired. Unless there is an infusion of additional – and fresher – F-16s, the necessity for the A330 MRTT for the sake of its boom-refuelling capability is limited. If the PAF is to consider this system, it would be on the basis of fuel efficiency, versatility, and maintenance costs (though this would require one to assume the IL-78 is costlier to maintain). Furthermore, the A330 MRTT is a platform the PAF could operate for many decades, which may help offset the high upfront price.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Discussion: Why Pakistan’s F-16s do not have in-flight refuelling support
> 
> 
> Foreword: This is not a news story, but a piece for the purpose of discussion. The details offered in this article as well as in subsequent parts are not authoritative pieces of information, but rathe...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quwa.org


just few million dollars can solve this issue sir . no need MRTT

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## untitled

Imran Khan said:


> just few million dollars can solve this issue sir . no need MRTT
> 
> 
> View attachment 804872


What if the pilot accidentally jettisons it on a long range mission?

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## The Eagle

untitled said:


> Having less drag and better visibility is always a good thing and for some reason the French only installed the retractable probe on the Super Etendard



They had it on Super Entendard but why not on the current leading Rafale & Mirage previously? You are not getting the point. Do you think they or Chinese will compromise on such disadvantages, if they are?


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## Imran Khan

untitled said:


> What if the pilot accidentally jettisons it on a long range mission?


then he should not come back to base

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## NA71

Someone just tweeted that first 02 x 10C has landed.... 😁 People have asked their phupoos to sniff on J-10C activities rather thn usual family matters. 😜

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## untitled

The Eagle said:


> They had it on Super Entendard but why not on the current leading Rafale & Mirage previously? You are not getting the point. Do you think they or Chinese will compromise on such disadvantages, if they are?


There are pros and cons of having a retractable probe. It adds weight and complexity and there is always the possibility of it malfunctioning. I am just hoping that a future variant of the J-10 will have it


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## The Eagle

untitled said:


> There are pros and cons of having a retractable probe. It adds weight and complexity and the possibility of malfunctioning.



And space management issue.....Exactly.


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## untitled

Imran Khan said:


> just few million dollars can solve this issue sir . no need MRTT
> 
> 
> View attachment 804872


I was under the impression that a KC-130 is too slow to refuel an F-16 (even if a boom system is installed). But this picture says otherwise


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## retaxis

J-10C destroyed both the SU-35 and J-16 in air to air combat battle so i have no doubt it can go head to head against rafales. Also Pakistani pilots are far better then Indian pilots so this acquisition should put Pakistan back on top.

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## Imran Khan

untitled said:


> I was under the impression that a KC-130 is too slow to refuel an F-16 (even if a boom system is installed). But this picture says otherwise


c-130 refuls f-16 f18 f35 giripin f-5 f-4


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## untitled

Imran Khan said:


> c-130 refuels f-16


It can't unless it has the boom system. Almost all pics you see of refuelling F15s and F16s are with KC135s or KC10s

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## IbnAbdullah

Salaam

A very welcome development. 

One point I wanted to make regarding the issue of PAF not waiting for a 5th Gen jet and going for, what some people consider, a somewhat comparable albeit a bit better platform than JFT. 

I think the strategic planners have to think about more than just the cost/capabilities of a particular platform in comparison to another. They also have to keep the geostrategic requirements in mind. 

It may be that the next best platform is 10 years away and the strategic planners see a need in a time less than that. 

We have to remember, the geostrategic situation has changed after the Indians revoked Article 370. It brought the Chinese into direct conflict with India as well. The Chinese have occupied a 1000km2 of previously Indian controlled territory. 

The dynamic has changed significantly with the open entry of the Chinese into the Kashmir theatre.

It may be that there is something significant being planned or a need foreseen for which these purchases and developments are being made despite the financial difficulty Pakistan is currently facing.

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## Jinn Baba

_NOBODY_ said:


> Will China allows us to use J-10Cs in an exercise with a NATO country?



At the very least - we would have J10C and JF17s in exercises with PAF Block 52s

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## Imran Khan

untitled said:


> It can't unless it has the boom system. Almost all pics you see of refuelling F15s and F16s are with KC135s or KC10s


we were talking about this one sir

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## Riz

Just landed successfully on an unknown airbase in Pakistan

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## Green disc

Eastern neighbour is s*****g in there pants this very moment

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## Bigbang1983

Salam all,

Excellent development although it had been under speculation for a long time that j10s will be inducted. 

My hunch is that this is a starter and the main course is yet to come. It's a 3 course gourmet chinese meal ofcourse.

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## Riz

قوم انگلینڈ سے ایک گنجی جہاز کے انے کا انتظار کر رہی تھی 
لیکن چائنہ سے دو جنگی جہاز پہنچ گئے

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## Dreamer.

Trailer23 said:


> J-10C ke khabar suntay he IAF ka aik MiG-21 aaj gir para.


Rafale, mirage 2000 ya kam az kam su-30 ne khabar suni hoti to koi baat hoti....mig21 to pehlay hi flying coffin tha.


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## SIPRA

Riz said:


> قوم انگلینڈ سے ایک گنجی جہاز کے انے کا انتظار کر رہی تھی
> لیکن چائنہ سے دو جنگی جہاز پہنچ گئے
> 
> View attachment 804901



Jahaaz hota, tau aa chuka hota. "Khoti Rairhi hae".


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## Dreamer.

Imran Khan said:


> we were talking about this one sir
> View attachment 804894


The point was to use refeuling to free up hard points taken by fuel tanks. this solution still uses a hard point for fuel tank.

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## siegecrossbow

Riz said:


> Just landed successfully on an unknown airbase in Pakistan
> View attachment 804900



Obviously CGI. Also, the model is J-10A.

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## Salza

Zarvan said:


> After induction that is obvious next step to put it against Rafale and S 400.


PLAAF might have already done it against their S400 so that knowledge would had been already passed into PAF in the last 2-3 years. P.S. why talking about S400 when we already have similar systems (albeit a bit lesser range) in the form of HQ16 and HQ9B. Let's pitch thunders , f16s and j10s against them and develop necessary tactics, S400 will be taken care of itself.

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## Pappa Alpha

Salza said:


> PLAAF might have already done it against their S400 so that knowledge would had been already passed into PAF in the last 2-3 years. P.S. why talking about S400 when we already have similar systems (albeit a bit lesser range) in the form of HQ16 and HQ9B. Let's pitch thunders , f16s and j10s against them and develop necessary tactics, S400 will be taken care of itself.


S400 will certainly have different/better algos regarding signal processing apart from increased range.

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## Salza

Pappa Alpha said:


> S400 will certainly have different/better algos regarding signal processing apart from increased range.


Not really. HQ9B is pretty much based on S400. Its just that S400 fires two missiles against one target hence increasing the chance of successful interception.

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## Goenitz

Riz said:


> Just landed successfully on an unknown airbase in Pakistan
> View attachment 804900


base beach pa lag rahi ha. I think it is for NAVY.

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## akramishaqkhan

Riz said:


> Just landed successfully on an unknown airbase in Pakistan
> View attachment 804900


Oops landed on the wrong base. Please "find" another "background", I meant to say base.


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## SQ8

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Exactly Moreover, now everyone just discusses equipment or their technical details and not their employment/ tactics. Everyone just wants the news of new eqpt but no one writes about planning, tactics, deployment according to ORBATS, scenarios. Moreover the Think tanks who used to post/ elaborate and take active part in such threads have either left or post rarely (IF such threads are created in the first place).
> For instance you can compare all the threads of 2021 which will only be on procurement woth those of 2019/20 which will be on conflict analysis, operational planning of scenarios etc.


Heaven forbid if anyone actually discusses or understands costs involved with procurement, training and lifecycle. According to most PDFs weapon systems are like cars that they can purchase and then leave for ten years parked in the shed - maybe start it every month(which actually doesn’t work for cars either).

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## Battlion25

SQ8 said:


> Heaven forbid if anyone actually discusses or understands costs involved with procurement, training and lifecycle. According to most PDFs weapon systems are like cars that they can purchase and then leave for ten years parked in the shed - maybe start it every month(which actually doesn’t work for cars either).



The place needs to be cleaned up imo.. 4-5 individuals here needs to get perma-banned I hate to say this but they must be given the marching order Just don't believe they are on the same page as this country nor moving the same directions... Also fake news should be come down on hard here

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## JawadKKhan

Battlion25 said:


> Were people expecting this..
> 
> But aside from that what did Nawaz actully buy during his era? Imo he didn't do much for the military in his era unlike this government



Wrong!. Military deals / agreements take long time. So you can't be sure of that. The 08 submarine deals was signed in 2016. The first 2 Type 54 A/Ps were signed in 2017. 

It happens all the time, many military deals were signed up in Musharaf's time but they were received during PPP time.


Imran Khan said:


> i hope news is just misunderstanding . china will send 25 PLAF J-10 for participate in 23 march flypass
> 
> View attachment 804871



Actually you never know. PAF is getting J-10Cs that for sure. But the air-show could be done by the chinese aerobatic team as seen in the screenshot.

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## The Eagle

Battlion25 said:


> The place needs to be cleaned up imo.. 4-5 individuals here needs to get perma-banned I hate to say this but they must be given the marching order Just don't believe they are on the same page as this country nor moving the same directions... Also fake news should be come down on hard here



Joined July 2021 and you have concluded as such..... Calm down.

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## applesauce

Salza said:


> Not really. HQ9B is pretty much based on S400. Its just that S400 fires two missiles against one target hence increasing the chance of successful interception.



where did you get that idea?

HQ9B was tested years before china got the S400.


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## araz

The Eagle said:


> They had it on Super Entendard but why not on the current leading Rafale & Mirage previously? You are not getting the point. Do you think they or Chinese will compromise on such disadvantages, if they are?


The weight of the retractable probe , the complexity and therefore the cost are factors which formulated the reason for fixed probe. It imposes little or no restriction on vision as well as increase in RCS of the platform. 
A

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## The Terminator

Trailer23 said:


> Boo-Yah!!!
> 
> If I had his address, i'd send him a box of Cuban Cigars.


He would really love to have them. As per his own words, he enjoyed the venerable Cuban cigars gifted to the then President Musharraf by none other than Fiedel Castro himself.🥳 He would love them.

And I think he is the most easy political leader to track. Could be seen unexpectedly at random locations of Rawalpindi streets or especially in Lal haveli that everyone knows. 😜


PakShaheen79 said:


> Have no idea what impact of this acquisition will have on future export prospects of JF-17. I have this feeling that PAF had to get it in order to get full version of PL-15s.


Or maybe JF-17s radar coverage range couldn't fully exploit the capabilities of the PL15 missiles! Especially against a tricky target like Rafale.


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## The Terminator

PakShaheen79 said:


> Have no idea what impact of this acquisition will have on future export prospects of JF-17. I have this feeling that PAF had to get it in order to get full version of PL-15s.


Or maybe JF-17s radar coverage range couldn't fully exploit the capabilities of the PL15 missiles! Especially against a tricky target like Rafale.


serenity said:


> There is no J-10D version available for export yet. What Pakistan bought is probably J-10CE but more tailored for PAF. This doesn't mean it is a better version of J-10CE or a tailored to be cheaper version. We don't know much about the purchase.
> 
> J-10D was rumored on Chinese forums as either something that was speculated to be a PAF version of J-10CE or as a new block upgrade from J-10C.
> 
> It is very lucky PAF can train against Rafale and possibly even gain some sensitive insight although I doubt Qatar would allow this even if it is friends with friends this sort of revealing everything is rarely done or done with a high price. Still being able to learn some things about Rafale is good for PAF. The Indians have best version of Rafale which Egypt and Qatar do not use.


Indians have best version! How so? UAE is gonna get Rafale F4 which India doesn't have any. 

And for Qatar's part, it's just a sheer luck for Pakistan that Turkey has to prepare against Rafales at the most convenient time too, obviously due to the Greece reason. PAF got a free hitchhike due to Turks in the mean time. As Turks are naturally our best possible allies we might ever get. 

Qatar gets to great lengths in order to strengthen it's ties with Turkey, unlike the "brotherly" KSA, which imposed severe conditions upon Pakistan for a few Billion $$, Qatar injected dozen Billion $$$ into Turkish economy just to support their declining lira value. And that too without a single question asked.


graphican said:


> J-10 was pretty clear and obvious. If you want to take a shot, take it on J-15s and JH-7s? So?


And the wishlist continues ..... !!! 😂😂😂

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## Falcon26

The Terminator said:


> Or maybe JF-17s radar coverage range couldn't fully exploit the capabilities of the PL15 missiles! Especially against a tricky target like Rafale.
> Indians have best version! How so? UAE is gonna get Rafale F4 which India doesn't have any.
> 
> And for Qatar's part, it's just a sheer luck for Pakistan that Turkey has to prepare against Rafales at the most convenient time too, obviously due to the Greece reason. PAF got a free hitchhike due to Turks in the mean time. As Turks are naturally our best possible allies we might ever get.
> 
> Qatar gets to great lengths in order to strengthen it's ties with Turkey, unlike the "brotherly" KSA, which imposed severe conditions upon Pakistan for a few Billion $$, Qatar injected dozen Billion $$$ into Turkish economy just to support their declining lira value. And that too without a single question asked.
> 
> And the wishlist continues ..... !!! 😂😂😂



Pakistan, Qatar and Turkey should have an annual exercise to be hosted in Turkey. Rafale, S400, J-10c, and J-17 backed by Erieyes and DA-20s should all be on the menu.

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## WinterFangs

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476828439130869760

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## jupiter2007

Didn’t Nawaz Sharief who made the deal for J-10c with China? Lol 😂 Patwaris can confirm it .

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## Skywalker

Riz said:


> Just landed successfully on an unknown airbase in Pakistan
> View attachment 804900


with all the missile intact, looks photoshopped to me.


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## siegecrossbow

Falcon26 said:


> Pakistan, Qatar and Turkey should have an annual exercise to be hosted in Turkey. Rafale, S400, J-10c, and J-17 backed by Erieyes and DA-20s should all be on the menu.



Does Qatar operate the meteor missile? If so then PAF could figure out the envelope and that would be a major boon during actual combat.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

25 Planes are an odd figure would be interesting to know if the figure for March 23rd is 18 , 25 or 36 Jets

36 Seems more logical

18 x First Squadron
18 x Second Squadron

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## luciferdd

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 25 Planes are an odd figure would be interesting to know if the figure for March 23rd is 18 , 25 or 36 Jets
> 
> 36 Seems more logical
> 
> 18 x First Squadron
> 18 x Second Squadron


I think he means pilots from 25th squadron will drive some J-10C(maybe 5) to flypast on 23th,March.


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## Trango Towers

luciferdd said:


> I think he means pilots from 25th squadron will drive some J-10C(maybe 5) to flypast on 23th,March.


Question is why do people like sheikh Rasheed break such news when he has the capacity of a wart in these matters. Talk about Savour foods and he should be given the platform.

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## Tshering22

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 25 Planes are an odd figure would be interesting to know if the figure for March 23rd is 18 , 25 or 36 Jets
> 
> 36 Seems more logical
> 
> 18 x First Squadron
> 18 x Second Squadron



I was wondering that as well, then I thought maybe PAF classification for a squadron is 10 jets (10+10 regular and 5 dual-seat trainer/strike attack variants). Thanks for raising the same question.

Also, isn't 3 months too aggressive a timeline? That would mean assembling the jets at lightning speed, prioritizing PAF's delivery.


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## luciferdd

Tshering22 said:


> I was wondering that as well, then I thought maybe PAF classification for a squadron is 10 jets (10+10 regular and 5 dual-seat trainer/strike attack variants). Thanks for raising the same question.
> 
> Also, isn't 3 months too aggressive a timeline? That would mean assembling the jets at lightning speed, prioritizing PAF's delivery.


The contract was signed in July 2021 probably,AVIC had released a video about one J-10C with painting national flags of both two countries.






And half a year is quite enough to produce 15~25 J-10C for CAC，As long as the money is in place.

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## Goritoes

I went on a small vacation and we have a confirmation of J-10C's, Phir na kehna bhai ne new year ka gift nai diya

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## siegecrossbow

luciferdd said:


> The contract was signed in July 2021 probably,AVIC had released a video about one J-10C with painting national flags of both two countries.



Indeed. The aircraft have been under construction all year. I recall reading a report by scramble.nl earlier this year of around 40 J-10C parked outside of the CAC facility in January. Considering that they only park aircraft outside when there is no room in the hangers/factory, it is safe to say that at least a portion of the batch were bound for PAF.

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## Tshering22

luciferdd said:


> The contract was signed in July 2021 probably,AVIC had released a video about one J-10C with painting national flags of both two countries.



I was referring to the number of jets ordered and not questioning the authenticity of the deal per se, since it means that the PAF is ordering one squadron i.e. of single-seater jets and the remaining 7 units would be dual-seater/trainer/conversion/strike versions.

Like these:

18 of these:






Twin-seater:


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## luciferdd

Tshering22 said:


> I was referring to the number of jets ordered and not questioning the authenticity of the deal per se, since it means that the PAF is ordering one squadron i.e. of single-seater jets and the remaining 7 units would be dual-seater/trainer/conversion/strike versions.
> 
> Like these:
> 
> 18 of these:
> View attachment 804995
> 
> 
> 
> Twin-seater:
> View attachment 804994


PAF don't need J-10S,they have JF-17B.


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## Goenitz

I think some members have discussed that if Jet availability is high then 12+12 for 2 squardons. Else 18+18 for two squardons.


StructE said:


> PAF uses 12 aircraft / squadron for aircraft types with higher rate of availability, 18 aircraft / squadron for aircraft types with lower rate of availability, my understanding is that F-6 and A-5 squadrons in past used to have 18 aircrafts and Mirages were somewhere in between 12 - 18. Let's see how J-10 is distributed.

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## Goritoes

Credit to @kursed  and our one and only nuff said @Rafi

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## MultaniGuy

So it is confirmed that Pakistan is getting J-10C, have I heard correctly?


313ghazi said:


> Great news to start the morning too. J-10C in PAF confirmed.


So it is confirmed. Mash'Allah great news.
Its always better to work with the Chinese on basically everything, because they are not duplicitious like the West are.

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## MultaniGuy

Even if it is in response to Indian Rafale. 

It is always better to work with the Chinese joint venture projects on basically everything.

We should believe in "Victory through self-reliance."





A J-10 aircraft

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## airmarshal

Does the Pakistani J-10 come with a Chinese or Russian AL-31 engine? Does anyone know?

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## FuturePAF

siegecrossbow said:


> Obviously CGI. Also, the model is J-10A.


At least we should troll them with a picture like this. Especially since a lot of them claim the J-10 is a copy of the F-16 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476847432952688641

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## luciferdd

airmarshal said:


> Does the Pakistani J-10 come with a Chinese or Russian AL-31 engine? Does anyone know?


WS-10 serise,the Afterburner Thrust is around 13.5T~14T.

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## SIPRA

Trango Towers said:


> Question is why do people like sheikh Rasheed break such news when he has the capacity of a wart in these matters. Talk about Savour foods and he should be given the platform.



I believe that "Sheeda Tully" is deliberately used, for releasing such news, where some kind of confusion and vagueness is desired to be maintained.


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## jupiter2007

luciferdd said:


> The contract was signed in July 2021 probably,AVIC had released a video about one J-10C with painting national flags of both two countries.
> View attachment 804992
> 
> 
> And half a year is quite enough to produce 15~25 J-10C for CAC，As long as the money is in place.



This has been explained few times on this forum. Whenever any country decided to acquire a new platform, testing and planning/studies of it takes years not months. How to use the aircraft? How many aircrafts should be acquired? Maintenance facilities? Training technical staff and pilots, etc.
If J-10C is coming in March 2022, it means that our pilots already went through required training to fly them and maintenance facilities is already established for J-10C.

36 to 48 J-10C will be acquired.

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## HAIDER

luciferdd said:


> PAF don't need J-10S,they have JF-17B.


J10S is for training and bombing missions.


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## luciferdd

HAIDER said:


> J10S is for training and bombing missions.


Do the US/China need some F22S/J20S to train the pilots?JF-17B can do most of the jobs.

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## luciferdd

jupiter2007 said:


> This has been explained few times on this forum. Whenever any country decided to acquire a new platform, testing and planning/studies of it takes years not months. How to use the aircraft? How many aircrafts should be acquired? Maintenance facilities? Training technical staff and pilots, etc.
> If J-10C is coming in March 2022, it means that our pilots already went through required training to fly them and maintenance facilities is already established for J-10C.
> 
> 36 to 48 J-10C will be acquired.
> View attachment 805034


I mean PAF made their final decition and signed the contract with AVIC at July 2021,but before that they surely had Started to investigate J10C years ago.


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## python-000

Full loaded J-10C...

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## Deino

python-000 said:


> View attachment 805057
> 
> Full loaded J-10C...



No, just a well-known very old CG made at a time, when even the J10B was not known.

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## Trailer23

The Eagle said:


> F-16s don't have refueling probes while many USAF platforms have. They never had it for Vipers though. Why?


It has been tested by Lockheed Martin's Skunk Works on a Testbed F-16, and would have been a feature in the F-21 (had India of placed an order).

Link: The F-16 gets a Conformal Aerial Refueling Tank System (CARTS)


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## abdulbarijan

It was first rumored in June 2013 that a "full standard" variant (*J-10C*, K/JJ10C?) with enhanced 4th generation electronics including an AESA radar, which is finally available, and an improved glass cockpit was under development. The *J-10C* (K/JJ10C?) #201 prototype (later renumbered as #1051) took off for the first time on December 31, 2013, powered by an AL-31FN Series 3 engine.* The aircraft appears to have close similarity with J-10B except for an additional datalink antenna on its spine ahead of the vertical fin, which has been speculated to provide mid-course update for the long-range PL-15 AAM.* Besides up to 4 PL-12s under the dual missile launch rails, the aircraft is capable of carrying the latest PL-10 and PL-15 AAMs (up to 4 can also be carried under the dual missile launch rails), plus YJ-91 ARM, JG-500B LGB, KD-88/88A ASM and YJ-83K AShM. It can also carry a KL-700A ECM pod and a K/JDC01A FLIR/laser designation pod underneath the engine air intake.

Images taken in November 2015 indicated that the production of the 02 batch had begun, believed to be *J-10C*s. They had VLOC antennas installed on top of the vertical fin and don't have the rear MAWS sensors on the root of fin (reason unknown). The aircraft is still powered by AL-31FN Series 3 turbofan and WS-10B was expected to be fitted in the future. *J-10C* has been in the service with PLAAF since 2016 (S/N 78x1x? 74x2x, 61x6x, 68x3x, 78x8x). *J-10C* was officially unveiled during the PLA 90th Anniversary parade in August 2017. Images released in November 2017 indicated that IIR MAWS sensors (S740) were installed on the side of engine air intake as well as at the tip of vertical fin for the newly built *J-10C*s. An image posted in October 2018 indicated that the 03 batch entered the service with PLAAF (S/N 61x6x). An image posted in July 2019 indicated that the 04 batch powered by the indigenous WS-10B turbofan without the TVC nozzle was in production. Images posted in December 2019 and June 2021 respectively indicated the 05 batch and 06 batch powered by the WS-10B engine were in production.

*Some J-10C pilot have been wearing a new HMDS similar to American JHMCS, which would maximize the HOBS capability of PL-10 AAM. The export version of J-10C is called J-10CE and the first customer could be Pakistani AF who needs the aircraft (dubbed J-10CP?) to counter the Indian AF's Rafale.*
A recent rumor (July 2020) suggested that a semi-stealth variant (J-10D?) was being developed to supplement the more expensive *J-20 *and *J-35*. A recent image (December 2020) indicated that *J-10C* started to wear a new low-visibility PLAAF insignia and serial number.
Another recent image (May 2021) indicated that *J-10C* powered by the WS-10B turbofan engine has entered the service with PLAAF (S/N 78x1x? 63x6x). *The latest image (June 2021) indicated that the some have been fitted with a new narrow frame holographic HUD similar to the one onboard JF-17 Block III *(see below). The latest rumor (November 2021) suggested that the first J-10D prototype has been built at CAC. Its maiden flight is expected to be by the end of the year.
_- Last Updated 11/20/21_ 

http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/fighters-ii.html

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## Ali_Baba

Tshering22 said:


> I was wondering that as well, then I thought maybe PAF classification for a squadron is 10 jets (10+10 regular and 5 dual-seat trainer/strike attack variants). Thanks for raising the same question.
> 
> Also, isn't 3 months too aggressive a timeline? That would mean assembling the jets at lightning speed, prioritizing PAF's delivery.



I think the decision(and the actual significant stategic decision) to purchase the latest batch of Chinese platforms was made after the WZ-10s and T-129s were sanctioned and the CSF reimburesements frozen. Those acts broke the relationship for good. It looks like the Armed forces have finally, and fully, turned their backs on any major strategic procurements from the Americans and will now focus on homegrown, European and Chinese systems.

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## Shotgunner51

luciferdd said:


> WS-10 serise,the Afterburner Thrust is around 13.5T~14T.


I guess that WS-10A. The massively upgraded C variant (and on improved processes) can deliver 142kN as per Janes or 14.5~15.0 tons per Chinese sources.

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## Deino

Shotgunner51 said:


> I guess that WS-10A. The massively upgraded C variant (and on improved processes) can deliver 142kN as per Janes or 14.5~15.0 tons per Chinese sources.



No, I an pretty sure it is the current WS-10B. The A-model is no longer und production.


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## batmannow

Let's see the dragons dance with TVC , and that makes its far more better rate fighter then RAFAEL with better and long range of its AESA radars.
Thanks God that stupid, decade old commision and getting immigration oriented policy of only dam F16s died with this dragons indications in PAF!

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## Shotgunner51

Deino said:


> No, I an pretty sure it is the current WS-10B. The A-model is no longer und production.


Yes you're right should be B not A


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## syed_yusuf

If my memory serves well, it was mentioned that j10 carry 4500 kg of internal fuel ... Is that correct ?

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## Deino

batmannow said:


> Let's see the dragons dance with TVC , and that makes its far more better rate fighter then RAFAEL with better and long range of its AESA radars.
> Thanks God that stupid, decade old commision and getting immigration oriented policy of only dam F16s died with this dragons indications in PAF!



There won‘t be a TVC capable J-10 for Pakistan.

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## jupiter2007

luciferdd said:


> I mean PAF made their final decition and signed the contract with AVIC at July 2021,but before that they surely had Started to investigate J10C years ago.



I don’t agree about the contract signing date. If J-10C are coming in March 2022, contract was probably signed least 2 to 3 years ago, most likely 2018.

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## NA71

jupiter2007 said:


> I don’t agree about the contract signing date. If J-10C are coming in March 2022, contract was probably signed least 2 to 3 years ago, most likely 2018.





Just watch this video for Indian media reaction ....labled Shaikh Raheed as Shiakh Chilli....

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## Amaa'n

Lets keep it low on sharing info which shouldn't be made public....all lot of senior members here know when this entire project started but they stayed quiet for a reason - please keep it that way....

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## Deltadart

Its a good thing when the enemy underestimates your weapons. Their ridicule and belittling comments are reflective of their arrogance and also fear.
They keep repeating the same old silly arguments that jf17 is a flop thus we purchased the j10. But, failing to consider why did they buy Rafale, when they had super duper Teja? Logic is not their strong point. Besides, nothing on this earth can out do their rafales. They are invincible until there is a real face off against the j10s, then they will shut up for good, just like they did for their former savior, the MKIs after the 2019 encounter.

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## Falcon26

Deltadart said:


> *Its a good thing when the enemy underestimates your weapons. Their ridicule and belittling comments are reflective of their arrogance and also fear.
> same old silly arguments that jf17 is a flop thus we purchased the j10. But, failing to consider why did they buy Rafale, when they had super duper Teja? Logic is not their strong point. Besides, nothing on this earth can out do their rafales. They are invincible. *



Until their Rafales get pimp-slapped out of the skies like their SU-30MKI by PAF, and then, it will be about their next purchase which will be dubbed the best and greatest ever.

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## jupiter2007

Falcon26 said:


> Until their Rafales get pimp-slapped out of the skies like their SU-30MKI by PAF, and then, it will be about their next purchase which will be dubbed the best and greatest ever.



Hopefully India has learnt their lesson. They are closely working with French Air Force to counter PAF.


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## truthseeker2010

Falcon26 said:


> Until their Rafales get pimp-slapped out of the skies like their SU-30MKI by PAF, and then, it will be about their next purchase which will be dubbed the best and greatest ever.



IMO rafale wont face off with J-10 or even F-16 in at least WVR counter. IAF won't risk it as simple. MKI is the work horse but it have failed. If another skrimish happens, IAF will keep MKI at front with sweep from M29 and M2k coupled with AWACS and all these in numbers so as to overwhelm PAF numbers. Rafale will only provide EW support with spectra and SOW capability from behind the main package. 
Now unless PAF take a shot with aim-120 or PL-15, which they definitely will given they have signature confirmation. So PAF won't be facing rafales directly.

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## BON PLAN

Strange news.
I read on some other threads that JF17 was far enough to protect Pakistan from india....


Falcon26 said:


> Until their Rafales get pimp-slapped out of the skies like their SU-30MKI by PAF


to be seen.


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## FuturePAF

HAIDER said:


> J10S is for training and bombing missions.


And hopefully also EW


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## BON PLAN

jupiter2007 said:


> I don’t agree about the contract signing date. If J-10C are coming in March 2022, contract was probably signed least 2 to 3 years ago, most likely 2018.


Probably not. In this case some birds would have already been delivered.
The 25 will be taken on china forces. As the first Rafale of Egypt or Greece taken on french air force, but at the china scale.


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## Windjammer

BON PLAN said:


> Strange news.
> I read on some other threads that JF17 was far enough to protect Pakistan from india....


Well, it had visited India in broad daylight and returned without a scratch.... when Indians were very much alert and expecting.


> to be seen.


There's hardly any mention of the once called Raptor of East in the headlines.....alas Raptor turned into Rabbit......The anticipation in Military aviation is who will be the first Rafale ripper......Israel or Pakistan.

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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> Israel or Pakistan.



It should be china or Pakistan, and i am betting on PAF.

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## Trango Towers

Deino said:


> There won‘t be a TVC capable J-10 for Pakistan.





jupiter2007 said:


> Hopefully India has learnt their lesson. They are closely working with French Air Force to counter PAF.


The French....lol..

Soon yiu will see French crashing. Indian are infectious


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## Windjammer

truthseeker2010 said:


> It should be china or Pakistan, and i am betting on PAF.


Well the Aviation circle were discussing of a possible conflict between Israel and Egypt, India and Pakistan and maybe even Qatar and KSA.

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## PWFI

Trango Towers said:


> The French....lol..
> 
> Soon yiu will see French crashing. Indian are infectious


This french smell curry like pajeets

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> There won‘t be a TVC capable J-10 for Pakistan.



I don’t understand the obsession with TVC.

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## BON PLAN

Windjammer said:


> There's hardly any mention of the once called Raptor of East in the headlines.....alas Raptor turned into Rabbit......The anticipation in Military aviation is who will be the first Rafale ripper......Israel or Pakistan.


Why would you see a Rafale shooted down by israel? Egypt is now a clear ally of Israel, mainly against the same enemy : the Erdogan's turkey.


siegecrossbow said:


> I don’t understand the obsession with TVC.


You are right. It adds weight, and if the bird is well studied it's useless, specially with the new short range agile missile.

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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> Well the Aviation circle were discussing of a possible conflict between Israel and Egypt, India and Pakistan and maybe even Qatar and KSA.



There is a very low probability of conflict in sinai, (as there is no obvious reason) whereas South asia is definitely more hot.


BON PLAN said:


> Why would you see a Rafale shooted down by israel? Egypt is now a clear ally of Israel, mainly against the same enemy : the Erdogan's turkey.



don't worry your wish will come true, if not one IAF than other IAF definitely will!


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## KaiserX

PakAlp said:


> We already have 75 F16s, from them 18 are block 52s, we have Jf17s and now Jf17 Block 3s are coming. 250 Jf17s + 75 F16s + 75 Mirages. These 3 platforms should be enough to counter IAF until 2030 when a 5th generation J35/J20/TFX arrived, the billions spent on J10C could have been invested in to J35s.
> 
> I assume paf wanted an offensive platform and they had their eyes on f16s block 70s but since that is not possible and Jf17 is defensive jet (less payload, weapons, range etc) so J10C was the best available option. You can use it as a offensive asset and use it for the navy to replace the Mirage. Eurofighter Typhoon was my choice for a 4.5th generation offensive asset.
> 
> 253 Jf17s
> 75 f16s
> 72 J10C
> 
> 400 4th + 4.5th generation jets till 2035.
> 
> Pakistan Naval fighter jet range area.
> 
> View attachment 804556



Agreed. Only way I see J10CP numbers being reduced to 36 is if PAF decides to go for 36 J-31/J-35 as an initial order. Until 2025 focus will be on J10C, Project AZM, JF17B3, and upgrading all older JF17s to B3 standards. New AWAC/EW platforms also seems likely Pre-2025. In all the PAF is laying the infrastructural groundwork for the future intraduction of a 5th generation platform. I see the initial induction of atleast a squadron of 5th generations platforms by late the late 2020s

I have stated it before and will state it again. With the J10 procurement it becomes more likely now that the PAF will go full blown ahead with a delta canard designed 5th generation fighter, whether that will be CACs J20 or a redesigned version of the J20 (reduced weight/size) remains to be seen but the PAF has for decades had a close relationship with China's CAC (Producer of F7, JF17, J10, and now J20). The key requirement for the AZM program is a DEEP STRIKE STEALTH PLATFORM. The J20 fits that role far far more than the J31 would... just saying

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## Windjammer

BON PLAN said:


> Why would you see a Rafale shooted down by israel? Egypt is now a clear ally of Israel, mainly against the same enemy : the Erdogan's turkey.



It's not my wish but it was a discussion in some military circles since despite all the hot air, the Rafales apart from some ground strikes without any air opposition hasn't seen any actual combat. I think same applies for Mirage-2000.

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## The Eagle

BON PLAN said:


> Strange news.
> I read on some other threads that JF17 was far enough to protect Pakistan from india....
> 
> to be seen.



Like MK2 reporting Radar issues during Operation Swift Retort.


Windjammer said:


> It's not my wish but it was a discussion in some military circles since despite all the hot air, the Rafales apart from some ground strikes without any air opposition hasn't seen any actual combat. I think same applies for Mirage-2000.



Food for thought my friend. Let someone increase post numbers.

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## Valiant

BON PLAN said:


> Strange news.
> I read on some other threads that JF17 was far enough to protect Pakistan from india....
> 
> to be seen.




Ah, that's quite rich since I remember reading 15 years ago that the "Raptor of the East", MKI would decimate PAF and IAF would rule the skies within hours of the conflict starting. Funny how that turned out when the first punch landed.

"AMRAAM DODGERS" became an official tagline.

I'd stop projecting and maintain some dignity, if your ethos allows it

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## CrazyZ

BON PLAN said:


> I read on some other threads that JF17 was far enough to protect Pakistan from india....


It probably is, but what's wrong with PAF buying both the J10C and JF-17B3 in a Hi Lo combo. Indian media is massively exaggerating the Rafale angle. Replacement for PAF current F-16 fleet is needed irrespective of IAF procurements. IMO, PAF's F-16's should be sold on the second hand market and replaced with 100 or so J-10C. 100 J-10C's are far more potent then 80 older block F-16's.

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## KaiserX

CrazyZ said:


> It probably is, but what's wrong with PAF buying both the J10C and JF-17B3 in a Hi Lo combo. IMO, Indian media is massively exaggerating the Rafale angle. Replacement for PAF current F-16 fleet is needed irrespective of IAF procurements.



Id much rather have 36 usable limitless J10Cs than 80 odd F16s which are constantly monitored by the US and limited by agreements/computer codes/spares. Numbers mean very little when it comes to usability/maintenance. During or before a conflict the US can easily sanction spare parts for the F16s.

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## CrazyZ

KaiserX said:


> Id much rather have 36 usable limitless J10Cs than 80 odd F16s which are constantly monitored by the US and limited by agreements/computer codes/spares. Numbers mean very little when it comes to usability/maintenance. During or before a conflict the US can easily sanction spare parts for the F16s.


Exactly, Not only are there no strings attached for using J-10C offensively against India, they can be used for naval strike.

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## The Terminator

Areesh said:


> PAF ka F16 ka junoon
> 
> Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un


Finally its put to rest. Recent geopolitical environment and Biden's hostile and unwelcoming attitude towards us has put liquid Nitrogen upon "viper wishers". So at last PAF getting the J-10s now.

Now they've realized that honeymoon period with US as seato cento Frontline partner is long gone. We would have to resort to China, Turkey, Ukraine and Russia mainly for defense cooperation. And some western countries who are still willing to cooperate with us in a more sane manner.



Falcon26 said:


> Pakistan, Qatar and Turkey should have an annual exercise to be hosted in Turkey. Rafale, S400, J-10c, and J-17 backed by Erieyes and DA-20s should all be on the menu.


They really did those exercises. They conducted trilateral military training in Turkey. Qatar has also deployed some of its Rafales in Turkey for further evaluation

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## The Terminator

luciferdd said:


> The contract was signed in July 2021 probably,AVIC had released a video about one J-10C with painting national flags of both two countries.
> View attachment 804992
> 
> 
> And half a year is quite enough to produce 15~25 J-10C for CAC，As long as the money is in place.


Then it should be called "JF-10C"

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## The Terminator

MultaniGuy said:


> So it is confirmed. Mash'Allah great news.
> Its always better to work with the Chinese on basically everything, because they are not duplicitious like the West are.



I think you meant to say hypocrites and cunning fellas

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## araz

CrazyZ said:


> It probably is, but what's wrong with PAF buying both the J10C and JF-17B3 in a Hi Lo combo. Indian media is massively exaggerating the Rafale angle. Replacement for PAF current F-16 fleet is needed irrespective of IAF procurements. IMO, PAF's F-16's should be sold on the second hand market and replaced with 100 or so J-10C. 100 J-10C's are far more potent then 80 older block F-16's.


It is not so much a "replacement" of the 16s as a "complement to". One of the things we have not talked about much is the impact of US sanctions on the PAF. Currently within a couple of months PAF will need to get spares from the black market. In case of war this need will become more dire. To circumvent this PAF is relying on the J10 which will take over/complement that role so the thought of sanctions and its possible benefits to the US(bending Pakistani decision making to its advantage) are nullified to some extent. So 0AF is not looking to let go of the 16s at all.
A

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## CrazyZ

araz said:


> It is not so much a "replacement" of the 16s as a "complement to". One of the things we have not talked about much is the impact of US sanctions on the PAF. Currently within a couple of months PAF will need to get spares from the black market. In case of war this need will become more dire. To circumvent this PAF is relying on the J10 which will take over/complement that role so the thought of sanctions and its possible benefits to the US(bending Pakistani decision making to its advantage) are nullified to some extent. So 0AF is not looking to let go of the 16s at all.
> A


F-16 are a stranded asset for Pakistan. Sell them while they still have value. We must think strategically. Too many emotional Viper fanboys on PDF. A number of MENA countries will take them.

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## FuturePAF

abdulbarijan said:


> A recent rumor (July 2020) suggested that a *semi-stealth variant* (J-10D?) was being developed to supplement the more expensive J-20 and J-35.
> 
> The latest rumor (November 2021) suggested that the first J-10D prototype has been built at CAC. Its maiden flight is expected to be by the end of the year.
> _- Last Updated 11/20/21_
> 
> http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/fighters-ii.html



First of all that’s a beautiful angle of the J-10C. Secondly, a follow on order by the PAF could presumably be J-10D in a few years. Let the wishlists begin  (A semi-stealth J-10D was something I had hoped for years, so it’s good to see it might be underdevelopment and if so, I hope the PAF procures it to improve its Qualitative edge over the IAF, and a good way to build up the technological know how of the PAF and PAC in the development of Project AZM. A good counter to the Su-75 in the international arms market. 









What will the J-10 continue to improve? Or with deep stealth performance, Chengjian 20 is the best partner! _fighter


J-10D - itw01.com What will the J-10 continue to improve? Or with deep stealth performance, Chengjian 20 is the best partner! _fighter...




thaimilitaryandasianregion.blogspot.com

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## Imran Khan

CrazyZ said:


> F-16 are a stranded asset for Pakistan. Sell them while they still have value. We must think strategically. Too many emotional Viper fanboys on PDF. A number of MENA countries will take them.


then we will under Chinese mercy after USA

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## Abid123

Can it carry the PL-21?


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## The Eagle

FuturePAF said:


> First of all that’s a beautiful angle of the J-10C. Secondly, a follow on order by the PAF could presumably be J-10D in a few years. Let the wishlists begin  (A semi-stealth J-10D was something I had hoped for years, so it’s good to see it might be underdevelopment and if so, I hope the PAF procures it to improve its Qualitative edge over the IAF, and a good way to build up the technological know how of the PAF and PAC in the development of Project AZM. A good counter to the Su-75 in the international arms market.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What will the J-10 continue to improve? Or with deep stealth performance, Chengjian 20 is the best partner! _fighter
> 
> 
> J-10D - itw01.com What will the J-10 continue to improve? Or with deep stealth performance, Chengjian 20 is the best partner! _fighter...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thaimilitaryandasianregion.blogspot.com



Just look at how USAF did with twin and single jet engine. F-22 and F-35. For single engine, US didn't modify the F-16 but went ahead with a new aircraft which eventually was a result of experience on F-16 and replace it. Similarly, if there's already a twin engine J-20 then by same law of true stealth development, the J-10 can become a baseline for totally new single engine 5th Gen fighter jet for PLAAF like F-35. Speaking of supplementing the J-20, I think further soft upgrades and use of RAM can bring current J-10C as a supplementing figure. IMO, if there has to be a single engine PLAAF bird, most probably gonna be a new jet. In the mean time, we cannot ignore another 5th Gen J-35 by PLAAF that suggests that they aren't going for single engine 5th Jen since they have a bit more powerful bird falling almost in Medium weight category.

I can be wrong in my assessment, though.

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## m52k85

رفال کا مقابلہ کرنے کے لیے پاکستان جے ٹین سی خرید رہا ہے


آج کل پاکستان کے عسکری فورمز میں خبریں گردش کر رہی ہیں کہ پاکستان جے ایف 17 تھنڈر کے بلاک تھری کے ساتھ ساتھ پاک فضائیہ کے بیڑے میں جے ٹین سی لڑاکا طیارے بھی شامل کر رہا ہے۔ ایئر فورس کے ترجمان نے فی الحال اس حوالے سے کچھ بھی کہنے سے معذرت کی ہے کہ معاہدہ کس نوعیت کا ہے اور پہلی کھیپ کب پاکستان...




www.independenturdu.com


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## Big_bud

Indians are those paindus who first time have bought a good jet and are jumping like little kids out of excitement! 

These brainless people can only focus on what their media tells them. JF 17 is Chinese, J10 is Chinese. Won't fly. Won't work etc! Despite using Russian equipment all their lives. Today we are learning how our F16s were a big source of inferiority for them all along! 😄 They manage to get a western aircraft and can't contain themselves these poor things!

I have been trolling them with some facts, it really rubs hard on their wounds once they realise that their government and media didn't tell them that PL15s on our JFs and J10s will far exceed range of their missiles! And PAF retains first see and first shoot capability! Their rafales would have no choice but to turn back around once they see them coming! 

Accepting reality is really hard for them! This lot is really complexed! I have a blast exposing them! Haha 🤭

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## White Lion

araz said:


> It is not so much a "replacement" of the 16s as a "complement to". One of the things we have not talked about much is the impact of US sanctions on the PAF. Currently within a couple of months PAF will need to get spares from the black market. In case of war this need will become more dire. To circumvent this PAF is relying on the J10 which will take over/complement that role so the thought of sanctions and its possible benefits to the US(bending Pakistani decision making to its advantage) are nullified to some extent. So 0AF is not looking to let go of the 16s at all.
> A


The policies of Trump are causing troubles for F-16's specially the older ones as many European countries would be putting those up for sale in the immediate future. PAF was one of the prime contender for these aircraft. However it can be said that these countries would be forced to give these aircraft to Ukraine and Poland but the numbers would cause Russia to retaliate in kind. 

Turkish F16's replacement tender is also under hot water so it would really become interesting. 

Pakistan Navy was looking to procure some new fighter aircraft but they were asked to buy the Jf17 my the then PM. Still this procurement is open and PN could opt for J10C as well which would compliment the PAF. 

Recently Biden was briefed on JF17 block3 and now the news of J10C in the PAF has given the Americans a headache. US think tanks are considering this as a bigger loss than the loss to Taliban.

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## FuturePAF

The Eagle said:


> Just look at how USAF did with twin and single jet engine. F-22 and F-35. For single engine, US didn't modify the F-16 but went ahead with a new aircraft which eventually was a result of experience on F-16 and replace it. Similarly, if there's already a twin engine J-20 then by same law of true stealth development, the J-10 can become a baseline for totally new single engine 5th Gen fighter jet for PLAAF like F-35. Speaking of supplementing the J-20, I think further soft upgrades and use of RAM can bring current J-10C as a supplementing figure. IMO, if there has to be a single engine PLAAF bird, most probably gonna be a new jet. In the mean time, we cannot ignore another 5th Gen J-35 by PLAAF that suggests that they aren't going for single engine 5th Jen since they have a bit more powerful bird falling almost in Medium weight category.
> 
> I can be wrong in my assessment, though.



Your right, modest upgrades to the J-10 design; like RAM and the like, while a clean sheet design based on the J-20 is more likely. I think the limitation is the WS-15 engine; once it reaches performance goals (180+kn) and mass production it is likely it will be fielded. The PLAAF may stop at 400-500 J-20s (per conflicting online rumors) and IMHO, they might for at least an equal number of single engine platforms and or a mix with the J-35s. Although the J-35 will probably, IMHO, remain primarily a PLANAF bird.

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## Aspen

I must admit for a long time I didn't believe that PAF would actually have the sense to realize that the J-10C is the best choice for the job, but I am glad that they came to this conclusion eventually. I was pretty worried that they were going to just make more JF-17B3 and hope that was enough which was a recipe for disaster. Somebody in PAF or PLAAF must have smacked them into reality and told them to get a real air superiority fighter and get it in big numbers. I was hoping for years that it would be J-10C and must say I was very surprised that they actually did the right thing. We can get 4 J-10C for every Rafale so PAF must take advantage of this. J-10C is a better plane than F-16 in every way but I think China has not really had the opportunity to demonstrate the actual capabilities of this plane, so now Pakistan is going to be China's platform to demonstrate what they are actually capable of vis a vis Taiwan and India. There are a lot of people out there especially in the west who deliberately underestimate and play down the quality of Chinese fighters for a number of reasons. Even a lot of Pakistanis are guilty of being unabashed Viper fanboys. Most of us on this forum have know for years that J-10C is a serious killer but outside of military forums like this, most Pakistanis and non-Chinese people probably have no idea that China has fighters that are equal to or better than what US keeps for themselves, they are in for a big surprise.

I would say what makes Pakistan's J-10C fleet particularly interesting is that although some other countries in the region like UAE, Qatar, Saudi, Egypt have very impressive fleet acquisitions, those planes will never be used in a manner that requires their full capabilities at the edge of their performance envelope. Countries that sell to the Gulf know the most that their military equipment will be used is to do some easy bombing runs in Yemen which is a completely one sided war against a country that has no air force. Selling to Pakistan is a completely different story, we must be the only country in the world right now that is on bad terms with US and is getting military equipment this advanced. Taiwan, Israel, and Ukraine need military equipment that actually works and they are getting it, but they are also puppets of US. Pakistan is on the opposite side of US, yet we are getting the likes of J-10C which is practically the best that you can buy right now as a country that actually has to use these planes and fight a real enemy. US has not sold F-35 to any country that has had a major military conflict in last 10 years besides Israel after Turkey got kicked out, so practically speaking, if China is selling us J-10C they are expecting this plane to be used as a real fighter and not for some fake softball NATO photo interception.

Practically speaking, out of the major influential countries on bad terms with US excluding Russia and China, that have some kind of US sanctions, I would say that list includes Venezuela, Belarus, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, North Korea, Pakistan is the only country on that list to be getting latest generation technology like 4.5 gen J-10C. Can you imagine if North Korea or Iran got something like this. People would be freaking out. The Pentagon is already spooked enough that Iran and North Korea have their own missiles, if they somehow get 4.5 gen non-US fighters like Pakistan, that would be completely unacceptable risk from US perspective. Turkey is similar story, if Pentagon knew Turkey was going to make their own drones and actually use them, they probably wouldn't have kicked Turkey out of F-35 program because at least they could control it. Now Pentagon has no control over Turkey and that has really spooked a lot of people in DC as it was viewed as a clever move to punish Turkey but then ultimately backfired in spectacular fashion and gave Turkey the last laugh as the top drone manufacturer. I think Pakistan was for US the last remaining major hostile country in the region that they could somewhat control through sanctions but now that domino too has also fallen. J-10C is not dangerous because of any advanced radar and missile capabilities that it has but because it gives a level of strategic autonomy and expanded operational discretion to PAF that did not exist with F-16. For New Delhi, basically it is that unlike F-16, J-10C can actually be used anywhere offensively so this definitely changes some calculations of South Block. The days of PAF keeping tight lid on F-16 use are over, sure Swift Retort was done during broad daylight, but with J-10C now PAF will really do things out in the open for everyone to see unlike before. There is no consequence from China of using J-10C against India so now PAF can openly retaliate for things that they could not have used F-16 for.

India will have to act carefully now. Would not be surprised if after all of India's belligerence over the past year, this is how China decided to punish India by playing the long game as Beijing always does, quietly but in a calculated way. Border incursions like Ladakh are small fish for China, they won't stoop to India's level to retaliate or respond at the border, China will retaliate like a real superpower. The real way for China to get back at India and unleash the fangs on New Delhi is to make PAF a 1st rate Air Force as good as PLAAF and arm Pakistan to the teeth so they can keep their eyes on the ball which is Taiwan. And PAF must have realized that any usefulness of the F-16 is diminished by having to constantly be paranoid about getting caught operating outside Pakistan or getting sanctioned for parts. F-16 for PAF was like a bad marriage, you only are married out of necessity until you can find something better and J-10C is that something. The real bombshell in New Delhi has nothing to do with J-10C's radar and missile capabilities but that India's endless narrative of F-16 not being allowed by US will be over now, those days are gone now and will completely irrelevant going forward. In my opinion this is even more important than J-10C itself and was the best reason to buy it. This development is the real bombshell news for India and US also, the concept that Pakistan now possesses a potent 4.5 gen air superiority fighter made by a non-western country that must be taken seriously and has no operational restrictions or sanctions about where and where it cannot be used.

There were other great reasons to buy J-10C such as price and the fact that you could buy 4 J-10C for every Rafale and also the fact that with Pakistan making use of Chinese radar and missile systems on top of J-10C, the integration between these 3 packages will be excellent. I think the only reason why US is not more concerned about a hostile and somewhat major country like Pakistan getting a non-western 4.5 gen J-10C vs if Iran, Turkey, NK got something like this is that US wants to believe that J-10C is primarily directed at India and not at US assets which is a probably a correct assessment and really shows the true color of US-India relations and Pentagon snakes not giving a f what happens to New Delhi if they decide to abandon them alone with the wolves in the middle of the night (Afghanistan). But it should also be noted that US could not have done much to stop it even if they wanted to, J-10C doesn't have any western components in it, which is also one of the best reasons to buy it. I think with J-10C it is easy to take for granted that it doesn't have western components but look around and see how lucky we are, this is practically the only 4.5 gen fighter in the world that is actually reliable and uses no western components. India has been struggling with US components in Tejas and Tejas is only 4th gen while Russian reliability issues are well documented. There is a common saying in Chinese military circles that the most reliable Russian fighters are the ones that PLAAF has. I think J-10C is really a testament to how far China has come, really the culmination of everything they have learned and put into a single package, and Pakistan is pretty lucky to be the only country getting access to essentially the best of what China has to offer. I think slowly but surely, the links between China and Pakistan are getting stronger with recent big ticket deals like CRRC HSR and HQ missile defence system, it will be the right side of history to be on as China becomes the dominant power going forward.

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## Flight of falcon

From Forbes:











Minister: Pakistan Bought Chinese J-10 Jets To Counter India’s Rafales


On Dec. 29, Pakistani Interior Minister Sheikh Rasheed Ahmed announced the Pakistan Air Force would unveil 25 newly imported “JS-10” jet fighters from China for the Republic Day parade on March 23. These jets, he added, would counter the 36 Dassault Rafale fighters India was receiving from France.




www.forbes.com


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## Deino

Abid123 said:


> Can it carry the PL-21?



No


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## CrazyZ

Imran Khan said:


> then we will under Chinese mercy after USA


Yes, but China has been "all weather ally" for decades. I don't see this changing anytime soon. Chinese technology is catching up to western levels plus they have the most industrial capacity in the world. USA wont sell advanced fighter jets to Pakistan, neither will France or Sweden. Russia may but they have a historic arms partnership with India plus their AESA tech is behind China's.

Best for Pakistan to relay on combo of local arms production supplemented by direct purchases from China. Turkey or GCC may be an option in the future but not currently. 



White Lion said:


> Pakistan Navy was looking to procure some new fighter aircraft but they were asked to buy the Jf17 my the then PM. Still this procurement is open and PN could opt for J10C as well which would compliment the PAF.


I always thought Chinese flankers are the best option for PN due their longer range.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

I'm still awaiting official confirmation whether Pakistan has bought, leased or just borrowed the J-10.

There's no budget allocated to this large platform over the last few years and so I am sceptical. Super secrecy related to this acquisition doesn't add up either.

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## Aspen

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> I'm still awaiting official confirmation whether Pakistan has bought, leased or just borrowed the J-10.
> 
> There's no budget allocated to this large platform over the last few years and so I am sceptical. Super secrecy related to this acquisition doesn't add up either.



I don't think "official" confirmation will come until this plane actually lands in Pakistan but J-10 is worst kept secret of PAF at any rate. Pakistan likes to deal in secret and so does China. Even though everyone here knew J-10C was coming, I think Sheikh Rasheed admitting it this early was actually a slip up which he was not even supposed to say as the speech he was giving had nothing to do with J-10C and he just randomly decided to drop it for the audience probably because it was on his mind. But it does confirm what we already knew. Pak-China military deals are really a black box unless you are the only who is actually handling it and there is a reason for that, one of them being so that India has less time to lobby against it and throw public opposition and roadblocks in the way. India was caught totally off balance and flat footed by this announcement because they were never able to lobby against a deal that they knew nothing about, this is exactly what Pakistan and China were going for. To lobby against something, you need specifics and while there were obvious rumors here as well, I don't think anyone even on PDF had specifics about the deal as that info was really kept tight in a black box to prevent any specifics from leaking to Indian lobby in DC. Most likely these aircraft have already been made and paid for, they just have to be delivered.

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## OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ

KaiserX said:


> Agreed. Only way I see J10CP numbers being reduced to 36 is if PAF decides to go for 36 J-31/J-35 as an initial order. Until 2025 focus will be on J10C, Project AZM, JF17B3, and upgrading all older JF17s to B3 standards. New AWAC/EW platforms also seems likely Pre-2025. In all the PAF is laying the infrastructural groundwork for the future intraduction of a 5th generation platform. I see the initial induction of atleast a squadron of 5th generations platforms by late the late 2020s
> 
> I have stated it before and will state it again. With the J10 procurement it becomes more likely now that the PAF will go full blown ahead with a delta canard designed 5th generation fighter, whether that will be CACs J20 or a redesigned version of the J20 (reduced weight/size) remains to be seen but the PAF has for decades had a close relationship with China's CAC (Producer of F7, JF17, J10, and now J20). The key requirement for the AZM program is a DEEP STRIKE STEALTH PLATFORM. The J20 fits that role far far more than the J31 would... just saying



J20 is a long range interceptor... 
Chinese geography dictates that... 
Going by Chinese strategy of A2/AD, they will, in coming years field some of the most sophisticated Aerial and ground stand-off weapons such as PL21 and hypersonic heat-seeking missiles etc.
Pakistan's geography doesn't allow the room for a thorough interceptor. So, the focus will remain on agile multirole, air superiority and land attack platforms. 
Standoff platforms in case of Pakistan can work mostly in Naval roles(and deep strike)... where Mirage's now or perhaps something such as JH7? or it's newer iterations may work.

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## HAIDER

siegecrossbow said:


> I don’t understand the obsession with TVC.


It's not an obsession, lock, and launch and turn back ...tvc is best for single engine strike fighters. Not suitable for SU30 or Flankers ..because of their weight they have to first reduce the speed and then make a turn, which gives the opponent more time to lock the plane.
TVC J10









In Air Combat “Speed is Life”. While thrust vectors can provide great manoeuvrability, it bleeds speed (energy) significantly – making the aircraft extremely vulnerable to the enemy.

You can perform excellent stunts in air shows and win the audience – showing how manoeuvrable the aircraft is.





But if a pilot performs such manoeuvres in a real combat, he’s not coming home.

The Cobra like manoeuvres are great for Air shows but complete opposite in Air combat. While the thrust vectors can help in achieving high Angle-of-attacks (pointing the nose) in near-stall like conditions, this leaves the aircraft with almost zero air speed – an easy target for the enemy.

This is even more lethal in today’s combat, with no more traditional dogfight. With HOBS (High-Off Boresight) missiles and Helmet Mounted Displays, the aircraft no longer needs to be pointing it’s nose at the target in order to launch a missile. And an aircraft having low air-speed is a much easy target for these missiles.

This is not to say that they’re complete useless. The increased AoA has advantage in combat but it’s not a silver bullet.

The real advantage of Thrust Vectors is in high-speed, supersonic manoeuvring. Using Thrust Vectors, the turn capabilities of the aircraft can be severely improved at high speeds.

Thrust Vectors has it’s advantage but this greatly depends on the pilot and the tactics. In a close-air-combat, using them is mostly suicidal.

Their effectiveness in combat is usually not substantial enough to justify huge developmental & maintenance cost of the new engines . This has been a major reason why US didn’t further develop the idea despite testing Thrust Vectoring nozzles until F-22.
It's long debate 2d or 3d tvc ... Russian made more research on tvc or US .... the role of thrust vectoring concept among US and Russian air war doctrine is totally different ..

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## MultaniGuy

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> I'm still awaiting official confirmation whether Pakistan has bought, leased or just borrowed the J-10.
> 
> There's no budget allocated to this large platform over the last few years and so I am sceptical. Super secrecy related to this acquisition doesn't add up either.


It is true, Pakistan has bought the J-10C. Even I wasn't sure about this.


*Minister: Pakistan Bought Chinese J-10 Jets To Counter India’s Rafales*



Sebastien Roblin
Contributor

Aerospace & Defense
I cover international security, conflict, history and aviation.







BEIJING, April 16, 2018 — File photo shows a J-10C fighter jet in a training. China's new ... [+]

Xinhua News Agency via Getty Images 
On December 29, Pakistani Interior Minister Sheikh Rasheed Ahmed announced at a public event in Rawalpindi that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) would perform a fly-over using 25 “JS-10” jet fighters newly purchased from China for the Republic Day parade on March 23.




These jets, he added, would counter the 36 Dassault Rafale jet fighters India was receiving from France.


Ahmed was likely referring to the J-10 Vigorous Dragon, a single-engine tactical fighter built by the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation in Sichuan province. Developed in the 1980s and 90s, the J-10 was similar in concept to the lightweight but high-performing F-16 jet fighter, and incorporated DNA from Israel’s cancelled Lavi fighter as well.


There has not been official confirmation (nor denial) from China or Pakistan of the buy since Ahmed’s statement, which has been primarily reported in regional press. The size of the order is unclear too: while Ahmed mentions 25 aircraft in one squadron ready by the March 23 date, other sources claim the total buy would actually be for 36 aircraft in two squadrons.


PROMOTED




If Ahmed’s claim that PAF J-10s will be flying before the public by March is true, it would imply Islamabad secretly arranged the purchase _much_ earlier, as aircraft acquisitions usually take years to arrange, not months. After all, even once negotiations are concluded, it takes time to manufacture aircraft and train pilots to operate an entirely new design.


Pakistan, a longtime ally of China’s, first expressed interest in the J-10 back in 2006, but chose instead to co-manufacture with China a light fighter called the JF-17 Thunder, the latest Block III model of which introduces significant beyond-visual-range (BVR) warfare capability. However, Islamabad repeatedly explored buying the higher-performing J-10s as well, and has gained familiarity with the type in visits and joint exercises involving People’s Liberation Army Air Force J-10s.


MORE FOR YOU
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*Where Is Coding Headed? 7 Trends For 2022 And Beyond*






Chinese J10 fighter jet perform during the Pakistan Day parade in Islamabad on March 23, 2019. - ... [+]

AFP via Getty Images 


It’s likely Pakistan would only buy the latest J-10C model which has Chinese-built WS-10B or WS-10C turbofan engines rather than Russian AL-31F engines used on the J-10A and J-10B, reducing political complexity of the buy. The J-10C also features an advanced Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar and compatibility with longer-distance PL-15 beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles.






*Light Fighters on the India-Pakistan Border*

Though world air forces are increasingly favoring heavier, longer-range fighters, cheaper short-range light fighters appeal to countries like Pakistan and its rival India that face possible aerial engagements near their borders. For example, in 2019 fighters from India and Pakistan clashed, with India claiming one kill and Pakistan two. However, only wreckage of one Indian MiG-21 has ever been confirmed by photos (the pilot ejected), as well as fragments of an AIM-120C missile likely fired by one of Pakistan’s F-16s.

The PAF acquired its first F-16A/Bs in the 1980s, and these soon shot down between 5 and 10 Soviet and Afghan fighters on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border. During the 2000s, the PAF received improved F-16C/Ds as well.






Pakistani fighters F-16 fly on November 4, 2013 during in the Azm-e-Nau-4" (New Resolve) military ... [+]
AFP via Getty Images
However, Pakistan has drawn closer to China in the last decade and has been a longtime backer of the Afghan Taliban, leading to deterioration of its relationship with the U.S., which is keen to improve relations with India.

In that context, though sale of eight additional F-16s was authorized in April 2021, the PAF can’t be sure it will retain access to F-16s and their spare parts, upgrades and munitions. The poor state of U.S.-Pakistan relations motivates renewed interest in Chinese fighters, which Pakistan began acquiring in the 1960s in the form of F-6, A-5C and F-7P/PG jets, all export models of Chinese-built spinoffs of the Soviet MiG-19 and MiG-21.

If J-10s are delivered to Pakistan, they would likely first be used to replace the PAF’s 87 delta-wing Mirage III ROSE fighters, which remain quite old despite integration of modern avionics, satellite navigation and Italian Grifo radar. The Mirage IIIs are field in one combat squadron (No. 7 “Bandits”) based at the Masroor base near Karachi, as well as the 22 Training Squadron also at Masroor, and Skybolts squadron at the Combat Commander’s School in Punjab.






In this picture taken on December 27, 2017, a Mirage aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) ... [+]
AFP via Getty Images
*A match for the Rafale?*

Ahmed and other Pakistani commentators explicitly cast the J-10 acquisition as a “counter” to the Rafale jets being delivered to India.






Indian Air Force's Rafale fighter jet takes off during the first day of the Aero India 2021 Airshow ... [+]
AFP via Getty Images
The J-10C does appear to be a capable F-16-like fighter, with sensors and armament that would improve the PAF’s air warfare capabilities. Though Chinese J-10s have suffered a number accidents, perhaps related to computer systems designed to stabilize its aerodynamically unstable airframe, this was also true of the similarly engineered F-16 in its early years.

However, the J-10 doesn’t qualitatively overmatch the twin-engine Dassault Rafale, which has a superior thrust-to-weight ratio, and likely boasts a more capable AESA radar and self-defense jammer. Some cynics therefore claim the buy Islamabad’s inability to pursue other options, and at least one Pakistani politician has criticized a J-10 buy, arguing Pakistan should invest in domestically developed jets.






French Defense Minister Gerard Longuet stands next to a model of the Rafale's new Active ... [+]
AFP via Getty Images
Nonetheless, the J-10C would be more capable than the PAF’s JF-17s and could potentially wield Chinese-built PL-15 missiles with a longer range than the AIM-120C missiles used on PAF F-16s. The PL-15, which is guided by an AESA radar seeker, is thought to have range lying between 124 and 187 miles, though the PL-15E export model is constrained to 90-mile range. Furthermore, the J-10C’s AESA radar (though of unknown characteristics) may give it a situational awareness edge versus Indian fighters _besides _the Rafale that lack AESA radars.

Confirmation of a J-10 buy should come early in 2022 if Ahmed’s statement is accurate. If true, it would mark another milestone in Pakistan’s embrace of Beijing as a patron, a big step for China’s aviation industry which has so far failed to export more advanced fighter-types, and a new chapter in the military aviation competition between India and Pakistan.


Follow me on Twitter.



Sebastien Roblin









Minister: Pakistan Bought Chinese J-10 Jets To Counter India’s Rafales


On Dec. 29, Pakistani Interior Minister Sheikh Rasheed Ahmed announced the Pakistan Air Force would unveil 25 newly imported “JS-10” jet fighters from China for the Republic Day parade on March 23. These jets, he added, would counter the 36 Dassault Rafale fighters India was receiving from France.




www.forbes.com






Even it popped up on USA's Forbes magazine. This is a big deal.
I was talking to my aging abba who is now in his late 70's, he says India has wasted its money on Rafales.

He said the Rafales are* not that good.* LOL!


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## MultaniGuy

waz said:


> View attachment 804419
> 
> 
> Made in China stuff man won't work.
> Rafale made by white man much superior.


I noticed that too, Indian posters are absent from this thread. Not suprising. Oh well who cares!


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## MultaniGuy

Trango Towers said:


> Yes bhai...
> 
> Knowing Americas past they will drop their pants when it suits them. They have almost no influence in Pakistan other than f16s and cobras.
> They know that j10c is to counter their f16 position..they have no cards left.
> 
> We live in interesting times. Let's see InshAllah


I have always been the one to say never trust USA for anything.

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## MH.Yang



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## jupiter2007

I hope China allow Pakistan to integrate none-Chinese gadgets to J-10C.
Turkish SPEWS II and Targeting Pod.


ASELPOD is a high performance electro-optical reconnaissance, surveillance and targeting system designed specifically for fighter aircrafts. ASELPOD is designed as the new generation targeting pod for fighter aircrafts.

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## The Terminator

SIPRA said:


> I believe that "Sheeda Tully" is deliberately used, for releasing such news, where some kind of confusion and vagueness is desired to be maintained.


What kind of vagueness and for whom? For general public!!!???

Ok the military seems to be more professional this way but the Army and Air force have become more and more secretive towards their large ticket acquisition programs unlike the navy which openly discusses most of its future acquisition plans. Recent examples: HQ-9, VT-4 and J-10 etc. All inducted and deployed in a meaningful numbers capable of delivering an impact, if a conflict arises.

I'm it's stark contrast, India begins promoting and projecting it's probable future acquisition plans well ahead like at least a decade or half a decade earlier.

But I think our military's can't keep facts like that secret for long especially against foreign hostile Intelligence agencies. For example, IMHO, India knew about J-10 induction well ahead of the official statement from one of our ministers. When India was being tortured and ridiculed by the Chinese in northern borders, India anticipated the integration of J-10s into PAF back then as they spread rumor against Pakistan that one of our northern base was being used for the J-10s. Then an image of several new unmarked J-10s (allegedly for delivery to PAF) parked outside of the factory in similar timeline is a public knowledge. 

So all those rumours spread and public knowledge of a simple Pakistani civilian were all pointing towards this fact. And I guess professional intelligence agencies would be far more well equipped and informed than an average Joe.

So that's why I ponder,why all this secrecy is for? Or more probably it's just a norm of our military to do the their thing ie acquisition announcement SOP. Which is really toxic and a bad news for us PDFers (PDF members)

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## Abid123

CrazyZ said:


> I always thought Chinese flankers are the best option for PN due their longer range.


They are the best option.


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## The Terminator

truthseeker2010 said:


> IMO rafale wont face off with J-10 or even F-16 in at least WVR counter. IAF won't risk it as simple. MKI is the work horse but it have failed. If another skrimish happens, IAF will keep MKI at front with sweep from M29 and M2k coupled with AWACS and all these in numbers so as to overwhelm PAF numbers. Rafale will only provide EW support with spectra and SOW capability from behind the main package.
> Now unless PAF take a shot with aim-120 or PL-15, which they definitely will given they have signature confirmation. So PAF won't be facing rafales directly.


Do you think the IAF would have such complex thought process, while in reality, they sent a couple of Mig 21s alone to takedown the mix of a fully loaded package sent by PAF alongside all other support systems in place and effective. At least you could have expected their flankers to give some cover for the MiG21s to be a sane and logical decision. But just at that moment, the Indians realized for the 1st time that JF-17 isn't really a glorified packaged F-7 but a whole new beast in fact.

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## The Terminator

Valiant said:


> Ah, that's quite rich since I remember reading 15 years ago that the "Raptor of the East", MKI would decimate PAF and IAF would rule the skies within hours of the conflict starting. Funny how that turned out when the first punch landed.
> 
> "AMRAAM DODGERS" became an official tagline.
> 
> I'd stop projecting and maintain some dignity, if your ethos allows it


The massive IAF having way more deep pockets is even more complacent when it comes to operational and professional excellence. They love to play with big and expensive toys bit doesn't have any clue about how a modern cohesive network centric force do operate. They (IAF) were lagging in key EW,command and control, communications support systems back in the 2000s, so went for a shopping spree to acquire new AWACS platforms. And now ten years later,they still lacked in those critical systems and paid the price and again went for the shopping spree of new jamming resistant radio systems and another globally glorified jet. So the pattern continues.

I surely believe IAF will get a really unpleasant surprise again with their pants down just like it has traditionally been happened multiple times before.

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## IblinI

Streets say the J11D and J10D programs are both alive, it would be interesting if J10CP can upgrade to the D version in the future.

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## SQ8

@CriticalThought 
What you posted in the other thread kept me thinking of what if I am wrong based on whatever limited information + knowledge I have. 

So lets put it through the simulation: @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD in case you are interested

A flight of 4 J-10Cs with PL-15s and a flight of 4 Rafale F3Rs with Meteors.
In total the J-10Cs carry 16 PL-15s and 8 PL-10s along with KG-300 ECM pods while the Rafale's 16 Meteors and 8 MICA EMs along with 8 MICA IRs as well(SPECTRA BUILT IN)
Max Range of PL-15 is simulated at 92nm while the Meteor is at 75nm.

Both located at 36000ft, facing each other and at 200nm out - same simulated skill level. 
They both have access to their respective DLs and the side overall is capable of exploiting other sensors but no AEW in place. 
This is a straight charge in with no collective offset tactics or approaches - pretty much medieval knights riding to meet each other with sensor/weapons performance what we are looking to see. 

Now I cannot change what the programmers of this simulation consider their values for sensor and weapons parameters and I do feel they have assigned the radar range to the J-10C lower than what it is(closer to the JF-17 Block 3) but that is offset to an extent by the range of the PL-15. 
Additionally, they also limited the J-10C to only being able to guide 1 PL-15 at a time when that is not the case in reality. It does however somewhat simulate the block-3 to an extent as well so the initial results can be taken analogous to that engagement too barring the block-3s slightly smaller RCS.
To make this engagement fair I limit the Rafale's to launch 1 weapon at each target as well. 

Finally, I AM HANDS OFF - no interference. 

Quick snapshot shows the detection/engagement range of the J-10(White circle at 75nm) and the weapons range in red.






The Rafale has a detection range of 140nm - so nearly twice that of the J-10C shown but then its stick is shorter.






Both flights proceed to engage keeping the same altitude and fairly same kinematics as well with the J-10C approaching the max weapons range






At exactly 74nm the J-10Cs launch their PL-15s at the Rafales who are in weapons range for the Meteor but dont launch yet. 






Finally at 70NMs the Meteors are also launch and the Rafale's start to notch - the J-10Cs are still not notching!









The Meteors don't loft as much as the PL-15s but the Meteors are FASTER due to their Ramjet propulsion and get to their target FASTER!
They go active and the J-10s are finally defending. 






All 4 J-10Cs are gone while the PL-15s are still in the air! 







WHEN the PL-15s do arrive they hit 2 Rafale's while the others are able to dodge and get away - thus ended attempt 1 at the simulation. 
Since it works as if a dice is rolled in terms of calculating everything from "pilot" responses to weapon impacts I ran it 3 more times. 

#2 - J-10Cs all lost, 1 Rafale remains

#3 - J-10Cs 1 survives the first volley while 2 Rafale's survive. ONCE this J-10C survives and both flow Hot again, it launches at another Rafale to bring it down and survives a Meteor. It launches again at the second Rafale and brings it down as well.

#4. No J-10Cs survive and 1 Rafale Survives. 

However, as I mentioned the issue lies with the simulated radar range for the J-10C and this result may reflect more the Block-3 rather than the J-10CPs. 
so perhaps suited to the other thread but the JF-17 Block-3 isnt some antidote for the Rafale and probably more akin to a numbers equalizer to outstick the IAF. 

But, I wasnt done so I manipulated the database and increased the range of the J-10Cs radar to 100nm and allowing them (and the Rafale's) to guide 2 missiles at a time. 
Doing that changed the whole game entirely - 

Now the J-10Cs werent only launching right at the edge of the PL-15s range but also able to notch more comfortably. The PL-15s would arrive and since they were 2 per target bring down all Rafale's 
while the meteors where still 35nm away from the J-10Cs! 
Even with their high speed at the weapon endgame the Meteors would at best bring down 2 J-10s in repeat after repeat of this scenario. 







So - having done so I decided to put up all other assets of the PAF against the Rafale. 

JF-17 Block-2 - 2 out of 4 times is unable to engage even and brought down by the Rafale - the other two tries brings down 1-2 Rafales

F-16AM with AIDEWS - Only in 1 engagement do they actually manage to evade the meteor and bring down 3 Rafales but still lose 3-4. Other cases it is 2-4 or 0-4 as well. 

So, clearly the other assets of the PAF barring the JF-17 Block-3 and J-10C arent going to have it easy against the Rafale - sure, the chance of this simple straight in engagement are also nearly nil but it goes to simulate what a game changer the Rafale is for the IAF. 

Why I state that is because I ran the simulation for other scenarios as well:

J-10C(100nm Radar) with /PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 4 times and in all it was 0-4 losses
J-10C with /PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 Win 4 out of 4 times , MKI managed to bring down 1 J10C in 2 rounds. 
J-10C with /PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 4 out of 4 times , UPG managed to bring down 1 J10C in 1 round.
J-10C vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Win 4 out of 4 times - No chance for Tejas they all went down for no loss to J-10C

JF-17 Block-3(_simulated by J-10C with 75nm Radar_) W/PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: 3 out of 4 times could not fire a single MICA and all went down
JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - Win 3 out of 4 times-, MKI Won only 1 round after losing 2 of theirs.
JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 2 win, 1 draw(shoot each other down) and 1 lost.
JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - 4 times they all went down for no loss to Block-3

JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Evenly matched on rounds- When they win it is 4-3, when they lose it is 2-4. 
JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 1-2 JF-17 remaining 
JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 4 times it is an EVEN result with either 1 Mig-29 or JF-17 surviving - very surprising considering the MKI is a superior aircraft in paper specs.
JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - EVEN result with 2 of either aircraft remaining after winning. 

F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 3 out of 4. 
F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 3-4 F-16 remaining .
F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 3 out of 4 with 2-3 F-16s remaining in all wins.
F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Won all 4 times - but nearly lost in one round with 1 F-16 remaining.

So, just my thoughts are that at this point the PAF does have the superior stick against most of IAF's fleet except the Rafale. 
Stating again that this is a VERY SIMPLE scenario.

Unfortunately we do not have the Astra to simulate so cannot see what that will do to change the engagements.

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## The Terminator

I was wondering about J-10C as our new Mirage too! Delivering precision nuclear tipped munitions deep into Indian territories and modernizing our nuclear triad which was lagging behind due to physical limitations of the Thunders . Slapping some RAAD cruise missiles on them or some Chinese equivalent would turn them into the real fierce dragons at stand off ranges delivering punches as and when needed and that too with complete impunity and style


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## Goritoes

SQ8 said:


> @CriticalThought
> What you posted in the other thread kept me thinking of what if I am wrong based on whatever limited information + knowledge I have.
> 
> So lets put it through the simulation: @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD in case you are interested
> 
> A flight of 4 J-10Cs with PL-15s and a flight of 4 Rafale F3Rs with Meteors.
> In total the J-10Cs carry 16 PL-15s and 8 PL-10s along with KG-300 ECM pods while the Rafale's 16 Meteors and 8 MICA EMs along with 8 MICA IRs as well(SPECTRA BUILT IN)
> Max Range of PL-15 is simulated at 92nm while the Meteor is at 75nm.
> 
> Both located at 36000ft, facing each other and at 200nm out - same simulated skill level.
> They both have access to their respective DLs and the side overall is capable of exploiting other sensors but no AEW in place.
> This is a straight charge in with no collective offset tactics or approaches - pretty much medieval knights riding to meet each other with sensor/weapons performance what we are looking to see.
> 
> Now I cannot change what the programmers of this simulation consider their values for sensor and weapons parameters and I do feel they have assigned the radar range to the J-10C lower than what it is(closer to the JF-17 Block 3) but that is offset to an extent by the range of the PL-15.
> Additionally, they also limited the J-10C to only being able to guide 1 PL-15 at a time when that is not the case in reality. It does however somewhat simulate the block-3 to an extent as well so the initial results can be taken analogous to that engagement too barring the block-3s slightly smaller RCS.
> To make this engagement fair I limit the Rafale's to launch 1 weapon at each target as well.
> 
> Finally, I AM HANDS OFF - no interference.
> 
> Quick snapshot shows the detection/engagement range of the J-10(White circle at 75nm) and the weapons range in red.
> 
> View attachment 805184
> 
> 
> The Rafale has a detection range of 140nm - so nearly twice that of the J-10C shown but then its stick is shorter.
> 
> View attachment 805187
> 
> 
> Both flights proceed to engage keeping the same altitude and fairly same kinematics as well with the J-10C approaching the max weapons range
> 
> View attachment 805190
> 
> 
> At exactly 74nm the J-10Cs launch their PL-15s at the Rafales who are in weapons range for the Meteor but dont launch yet.
> 
> View attachment 805193
> 
> 
> Finally at 70NMs the Meteors are also launch and the Rafale's start to notch - the J-10Cs are still not notching!
> View attachment 805194
> 
> View attachment 805195
> 
> 
> The Meteors don't loft as much as the PL-15s but the Meteors are FASTER due to their Ramjet propulsion and get to their target FASTER!
> They go active and the J-10s are finally defending.
> 
> View attachment 805196
> 
> 
> All 4 J-10Cs are gone while the PL-15s are still in the air!
> View attachment 805197
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHEN the PL-15s do arrive they hit 2 Rafale's while the others are able to dodge and get away - thus ended attempt 1 at the simulation.
> Since it works as if a dice is rolled in terms of calculating everything from "pilot" responses to weapon impacts I ran it 3 more times.
> 
> #2 - J-10Cs all lost, 1 Rafale remains
> 
> #3 - J-10Cs 1 survives the first volley while 2 Rafale's survive. ONCE this J-10C survives and both flow Hot again, it launches at another Rafale to bring it down and survives a Meteor. It launches again at the second Rafale and brings it down as well.
> 
> #4. No J-10Cs survive and 1 Rafale Survives.
> 
> However, as I mentioned the issue lies with the simulated radar range for the J-10C and this result may reflect more the Block-3 rather than the J-10CPs.
> so perhaps suited to the other thread but the JF-17 Block-3 isnt some antidote for the Rafale and probably more akin to a numbers equalizer to outstick the IAF.
> 
> But, I wasnt done so I manipulated the database and increased the range of the J-10Cs radar to 100nm and allowing them (and the Rafale's) to guide 2 missiles at a time.
> Doing that changed the whole game entirely -
> 
> Now the J-10Cs werent only launching right at the edge of the PL-15s range but also able to notch more comfortably. The PL-15s would arrive and since they were 2 per target bring down all Rafale's
> while the meteors where still 35nm away from the J-10Cs!
> Even with their high speed at the weapon endgame the Meteors would at best bring down 2 J-10s in repeat after repeat of this scenario.
> 
> View attachment 805200
> 
> 
> 
> So - having done so I decided to put up all other assets of the PAF against the Rafale.
> 
> JF-17 Block-2 - 2 out of 4 times is unable to engage even and brought down by the Rafale - the other two tries brings down 1-2 Rafales
> 
> F-16AM with AIDEWS - Only in 1 engagement do they actually manage to evade the meteor and bring down 3 Rafales but still lose 3-4. Other cases it is 2-4 or 0-4 as well.
> 
> So, clearly the other assets of the PAF barring the JF-17 Block-3 and J-10C arent going to have it easy against the Rafale - sure, the chance of this simple straight in engagement are also nearly nil but it goes to simulate what a game changer the Rafale is for the IAF.
> 
> Why I state that is because I ran the simulation for other scenarios as well:
> 
> J-10C(100nm Radar) with /PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 4 times and in all it was 0-4 losses
> J-10C with /PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 Win 4 out of 4 times , MKI managed to bring down 1 J10C in 2 rounds.
> J-10C with /PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 4 out of 4 times , UPG managed to bring down 1 J10C in 1 round.
> J-10C vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Win 4 out of 4 times - No chance for Tejas they all went down for no loss to J-10C
> 
> JF-17 Block-3(_simulated by J-10C with 75nm Radar_) W/PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: 3 out of 4 times could not fire a single MICA and all went down
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - Win 3 out of 4 times-, MKI Won only 1 round after losing 2 of theirs.
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 2 win, 1 draw(shoot each other down) and 1 lost.
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - 4 times they all went down for no loss to Block-3
> 
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Evenly matched on rounds- When they win it is 4-3, when they lose it is 2-4.
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 1-2 JF-17 remaining
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 4 times it is an EVEN result with either 1 Mig-29 or JF-17 surviving - very surprising considering the MKI is a superior aircraft in paper specs.
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - EVEN result with 2 of either aircraft remaining after winning.
> 
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 3 out of 4.
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 3-4 F-16 remaining .
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 3 out of 4 with 2-3 F-16s remaining in all wins.
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Won all 4 times - but nearly lost in one round with 1 F-16 remaining.
> 
> So, just my thoughts are that at this point the PAF does have the superior stick against most of IAF's fleet except the Rafale.
> Stating again that this is a VERY SIMPLE scenario.
> 
> Unfortunately we do not have the Astra to simulate so cannot see what that will do to change the engagements.



Does this simulation take Radar Jamming into consideration ? If yes, then I am assuming (and don't kill me for it) Rafale has the better Jamming pods compare to J-10C's, Also second question is that, I noticed that most of your simulations are in the Punjab sector, is it possible that J-10 or Rafale perform different in a more high Altitude Terrain like the Northern Sectors? Will Mountains play a role ?

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## syed_yusuf

I would like to see raad and Babar alcm on j10p

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## Reichsmarschall

SQ8 said:


> @CriticalThought
> What you posted in the other thread kept me thinking of what if I am wrong based on whatever limited information + knowledge I have.
> 
> So lets put it through the simulation: @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD in case you are interested
> 
> A flight of 4 J-10Cs with PL-15s and a flight of 4 Rafale F3Rs with Meteors.
> In total the J-10Cs carry 16 PL-15s and 8 PL-10s along with KG-300 ECM pods while the Rafale's 16 Meteors and 8 MICA EMs along with 8 MICA IRs as well(SPECTRA BUILT IN)
> Max Range of PL-15 is simulated at 92nm while the Meteor is at 75nm.
> 
> Both located at 36000ft, facing each other and at 200nm out - same simulated skill level.
> They both have access to their respective DLs and the side overall is capable of exploiting other sensors but no AEW in place.
> This is a straight charge in with no collective offset tactics or approaches - pretty much medieval knights riding to meet each other with sensor/weapons performance what we are looking to see.
> 
> Now I cannot change what the programmers of this simulation consider their values for sensor and weapons parameters and I do feel they have assigned the radar range to the J-10C lower than what it is(closer to the JF-17 Block 3) but that is offset to an extent by the range of the PL-15.
> Additionally, they also limited the J-10C to only being able to guide 1 PL-15 at a time when that is not the case in reality. It does however somewhat simulate the block-3 to an extent as well so the initial results can be taken analogous to that engagement too barring the block-3s slightly smaller RCS.
> To make this engagement fair I limit the Rafale's to launch 1 weapon at each target as well.
> 
> Finally, I AM HANDS OFF - no interference.
> 
> Quick snapshot shows the detection/engagement range of the J-10(White circle at 75nm) and the weapons range in red.
> 
> View attachment 805184
> 
> 
> The Rafale has a detection range of 140nm - so nearly twice that of the J-10C shown but then its stick is shorter.
> 
> View attachment 805187
> 
> 
> Both flights proceed to engage keeping the same altitude and fairly same kinematics as well with the J-10C approaching the max weapons range
> 
> View attachment 805190
> 
> 
> At exactly 74nm the J-10Cs launch their PL-15s at the Rafales who are in weapons range for the Meteor but dont launch yet.
> 
> View attachment 805193
> 
> 
> Finally at 70NMs the Meteors are also launch and the Rafale's start to notch - the J-10Cs are still not notching!
> View attachment 805194
> 
> View attachment 805195
> 
> 
> The Meteors don't loft as much as the PL-15s but the Meteors are FASTER due to their Ramjet propulsion and get to their target FASTER!
> They go active and the J-10s are finally defending.
> 
> View attachment 805196
> 
> 
> All 4 J-10Cs are gone while the PL-15s are still in the air!
> View attachment 805197
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHEN the PL-15s do arrive they hit 2 Rafale's while the others are able to dodge and get away - thus ended attempt 1 at the simulation.
> Since it works as if a dice is rolled in terms of calculating everything from "pilot" responses to weapon impacts I ran it 3 more times.
> 
> #2 - J-10Cs all lost, 1 Rafale remains
> 
> #3 - J-10Cs 1 survives the first volley while 2 Rafale's survive. ONCE this J-10C survives and both flow Hot again, it launches at another Rafale to bring it down and survives a Meteor. It launches again at the second Rafale and brings it down as well.
> 
> #4. No J-10Cs survive and 1 Rafale Survives.
> 
> However, as I mentioned the issue lies with the simulated radar range for the J-10C and this result may reflect more the Block-3 rather than the J-10CPs.
> so perhaps suited to the other thread but the JF-17 Block-3 isnt some antidote for the Rafale and probably more akin to a numbers equalizer to outstick the IAF.
> 
> But, I wasnt done so I manipulated the database and increased the range of the J-10Cs radar to 100nm and allowing them (and the Rafale's) to guide 2 missiles at a time.
> Doing that changed the whole game entirely -
> 
> Now the J-10Cs werent only launching right at the edge of the PL-15s range but also able to notch more comfortably. The PL-15s would arrive and since they were 2 per target bring down all Rafale's
> while the meteors where still 35nm away from the J-10Cs!
> Even with their high speed at the weapon endgame the Meteors would at best bring down 2 J-10s in repeat after repeat of this scenario.
> 
> View attachment 805200
> 
> 
> 
> So - having done so I decided to put up all other assets of the PAF against the Rafale.
> 
> JF-17 Block-2 - 2 out of 4 times is unable to engage even and brought down by the Rafale - the other two tries brings down 1-2 Rafales
> 
> F-16AM with AIDEWS - Only in 1 engagement do they actually manage to evade the meteor and bring down 3 Rafales but still lose 3-4. Other cases it is 2-4 or 0-4 as well.
> 
> So, clearly the other assets of the PAF barring the JF-17 Block-3 and J-10C arent going to have it easy against the Rafale - sure, the chance of this simple straight in engagement are also nearly nil but it goes to simulate what a game changer the Rafale is for the IAF.
> 
> Why I state that is because I ran the simulation for other scenarios as well:
> 
> J-10C(100nm Radar) with /PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 4 times and in all it was 0-4 losses
> J-10C with /PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 Win 4 out of 4 times , MKI managed to bring down 1 J10C in 2 rounds.
> J-10C with /PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 4 out of 4 times , UPG managed to bring down 1 J10C in 1 round.
> J-10C vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Win 4 out of 4 times - No chance for Tejas they all went down for no loss to J-10C
> 
> JF-17 Block-3(_simulated by J-10C with 75nm Radar_) W/PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: 3 out of 4 times could not fire a single MICA and all went down
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - Win 3 out of 4 times-, MKI Won only 1 round after losing 2 of theirs.
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 2 win, 1 draw(shoot each other down) and 1 lost.
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - 4 times they all went down for no loss to Block-3
> 
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Evenly matched on rounds- When they win it is 4-3, when they lose it is 2-4.
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 1-2 JF-17 remaining
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 4 times it is an EVEN result with either 1 Mig-29 or JF-17 surviving - very surprising considering the MKI is a superior aircraft in paper specs.
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - EVEN result with 2 of either aircraft remaining after winning.
> 
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 3 out of 4.
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 3-4 F-16 remaining .
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 3 out of 4 with 2-3 F-16s remaining in all wins.
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Won all 4 times - but nearly lost in one round with 1 F-16 remaining.
> 
> So, just my thoughts are that at this point the PAF does have the superior stick against most of IAF's fleet except the Rafale.
> Stating again that this is a VERY SIMPLE scenario.
> 
> Unfortunately we do not have the Astra to simulate so cannot see what that will do to change the engagements.


This post deserves it's own featured thread

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## mingle

jupiter2007 said:


> I hope China allow Pakistan to integrate none-Chinese gadgets to J-10C.
> Turkish SPEWS II and Targeting Pod.
> 
> 
> ASELPOD is a high performance electro-optical reconnaissance, surveillance and targeting system designed specifically for fighter aircrafts. ASELPOD is designed as the new generation targeting pod for fighter aircrafts.


Shouldn't be a problem


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## SQ8

Goritoes said:


> Does this simulation take Radar Jamming into consideration ? If yes, then I am assuming (and don't kill me for it) Rafale has the better Jamming pods compare to J-10C's, Also second question is that, I noticed that most of your simulations are in the Punjab sector, is it possible that J-10 or Rafale perform different in a more high Altitude Terrain like the Northern Sectors? Will Mountains play a role ?


It does take jamming and atmospheric conditions along with a host of other things into consideration.

Some of their clients

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## Stealth

*J10C is nowhere equivalent to Rafale 
however, it's good enough for a Rafael with an Indian pilot 
   *


SQ8 said:


> @CriticalThought
> What you posted in the other thread kept me thinking of what if I am wrong based on whatever limited information + knowledge I have.
> 
> So lets put it through the simulation: @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD in case you are interested
> 
> A flight of 4 J-10Cs with PL-15s and a flight of 4 Rafale F3Rs with Meteors.
> In total the J-10Cs carry 16 PL-15s and 8 PL-10s along with KG-300 ECM pods while the Rafale's 16 Meteors and 8 MICA EMs along with 8 MICA IRs as well(SPECTRA BUILT IN)
> Max Range of PL-15 is simulated at 92nm while the Meteor is at 75nm.
> 
> Both located at 36000ft, facing each other and at 200nm out - same simulated skill level.
> They both have access to their respective DLs and the side overall is capable of exploiting other sensors but no AEW in place.
> This is a straight charge in with no collective offset tactics or approaches - pretty much medieval knights riding to meet each other with sensor/weapons performance what we are looking to see.
> 
> Now I cannot change what the programmers of this simulation consider their values for sensor and weapons parameters and I do feel they have assigned the radar range to the J-10C lower than what it is(closer to the JF-17 Block 3) but that is offset to an extent by the range of the PL-15.
> Additionally, they also limited the J-10C to only being able to guide 1 PL-15 at a time when that is not the case in reality. It does however somewhat simulate the block-3 to an extent as well so the initial results can be taken analogous to that engagement too barring the block-3s slightly smaller RCS.
> To make this engagement fair I limit the Rafale's to launch 1 weapon at each target as well.
> 
> Finally, I AM HANDS OFF - no interference.
> 
> Quick snapshot shows the detection/engagement range of the J-10(White circle at 75nm) and the weapons range in red.
> 
> View attachment 805184
> 
> 
> The Rafale has a detection range of 140nm - so nearly twice that of the J-10C shown but then its stick is shorter.
> 
> View attachment 805187
> 
> 
> Both flights proceed to engage keeping the same altitude and fairly same kinematics as well with the J-10C approaching the max weapons range
> 
> View attachment 805190
> 
> 
> At exactly 74nm the J-10Cs launch their PL-15s at the Rafales who are in weapons range for the Meteor but dont launch yet.
> 
> View attachment 805193
> 
> 
> Finally at 70NMs the Meteors are also launch and the Rafale's start to notch - the J-10Cs are still not notching!
> View attachment 805194
> 
> View attachment 805195
> 
> 
> The Meteors don't loft as much as the PL-15s but the Meteors are FASTER due to their Ramjet propulsion and get to their target FASTER!
> They go active and the J-10s are finally defending.
> 
> View attachment 805196
> 
> 
> All 4 J-10Cs are gone while the PL-15s are still in the air!
> View attachment 805197
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHEN the PL-15s do arrive they hit 2 Rafale's while the others are able to dodge and get away - thus ended attempt 1 at the simulation.
> Since it works as if a dice is rolled in terms of calculating everything from "pilot" responses to weapon impacts I ran it 3 more times.
> 
> #2 - J-10Cs all lost, 1 Rafale remains
> 
> #3 - J-10Cs 1 survives the first volley while 2 Rafale's survive. ONCE this J-10C survives and both flow Hot again, it launches at another Rafale to bring it down and survives a Meteor. It launches again at the second Rafale and brings it down as well.
> 
> #4. No J-10Cs survive and 1 Rafale Survives.
> 
> However, as I mentioned the issue lies with the simulated radar range for the J-10C and this result may reflect more the Block-3 rather than the J-10CPs.
> so perhaps suited to the other thread but the JF-17 Block-3 isnt some antidote for the Rafale and probably more akin to a numbers equalizer to outstick the IAF.
> 
> But, I wasnt done so I manipulated the database and increased the range of the J-10Cs radar to 100nm and allowing them (and the Rafale's) to guide 2 missiles at a time.
> Doing that changed the whole game entirely -
> 
> Now the J-10Cs werent only launching right at the edge of the PL-15s range but also able to notch more comfortably. The PL-15s would arrive and since they were 2 per target bring down all Rafale's
> while the meteors where still 35nm away from the J-10Cs!
> Even with their high speed at the weapon endgame the Meteors would at best bring down 2 J-10s in repeat after repeat of this scenario.
> 
> View attachment 805200
> 
> 
> 
> So - having done so I decided to put up all other assets of the PAF against the Rafale.
> 
> JF-17 Block-2 - 2 out of 4 times is unable to engage even and brought down by the Rafale - the other two tries brings down 1-2 Rafales
> 
> F-16AM with AIDEWS - Only in 1 engagement do they actually manage to evade the meteor and bring down 3 Rafales but still lose 3-4. Other cases it is 2-4 or 0-4 as well.
> 
> So, clearly the other assets of the PAF barring the JF-17 Block-3 and J-10C arent going to have it easy against the Rafale - sure, the chance of this simple straight in engagement are also nearly nil but it goes to simulate what a game changer the Rafale is for the IAF.
> 
> Why I state that is because I ran the simulation for other scenarios as well:
> 
> J-10C(100nm Radar) with /PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 4 times and in all it was 0-4 losses
> J-10C with /PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 Win 4 out of 4 times , MKI managed to bring down 1 J10C in 2 rounds.
> J-10C with /PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 4 out of 4 times , UPG managed to bring down 1 J10C in 1 round.
> J-10C vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Win 4 out of 4 times - No chance for Tejas they all went down for no loss to J-10C
> 
> JF-17 Block-3(_simulated by J-10C with 75nm Radar_) W/PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: 3 out of 4 times could not fire a single MICA and all went down
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - Win 3 out of 4 times-, MKI Won only 1 round after losing 2 of theirs.
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 2 win, 1 draw(shoot each other down) and 1 lost.
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - 4 times they all went down for no loss to Block-3
> 
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Evenly matched on rounds- When they win it is 4-3, when they lose it is 2-4.
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 1-2 JF-17 remaining
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 4 times it is an EVEN result with either 1 Mig-29 or JF-17 surviving - very surprising considering the MKI is a superior aircraft in paper specs.
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - EVEN result with 2 of either aircraft remaining after winning.
> 
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 3 out of 4.
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 3-4 F-16 remaining .
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 3 out of 4 with 2-3 F-16s remaining in all wins.
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Won all 4 times - but nearly lost in one round with 1 F-16 remaining.
> 
> So, just my thoughts are that at this point the PAF does have the superior stick against most of IAF's fleet except the Rafale.
> Stating again that this is a VERY SIMPLE scenario.
> 
> Unfortunately we do not have the Astra to simulate so cannot see what that will do to change the engagements.



*Brilliant!!!!*

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## iLION12345_1

SQ8 said:


> @CriticalThought
> What you posted in the other thread kept me thinking of what if I am wrong based on whatever limited information + knowledge I have.
> 
> So lets put it through the simulation: @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD in case you are interested
> 
> A flight of 4 J-10Cs with PL-15s and a flight of 4 Rafale F3Rs with Meteors.
> In total the J-10Cs carry 16 PL-15s and 8 PL-10s along with KG-300 ECM pods while the Rafale's 16 Meteors and 8 MICA EMs along with 8 MICA IRs as well(SPECTRA BUILT IN)
> Max Range of PL-15 is simulated at 92nm while the Meteor is at 75nm.
> 
> Both located at 36000ft, facing each other and at 200nm out - same simulated skill level.
> They both have access to their respective DLs and the side overall is capable of exploiting other sensors but no AEW in place.
> This is a straight charge in with no collective offset tactics or approaches - pretty much medieval knights riding to meet each other with sensor/weapons performance what we are looking to see.
> 
> Now I cannot change what the programmers of this simulation consider their values for sensor and weapons parameters and I do feel they have assigned the radar range to the J-10C lower than what it is(closer to the JF-17 Block 3) but that is offset to an extent by the range of the PL-15.
> Additionally, they also limited the J-10C to only being able to guide 1 PL-15 at a time when that is not the case in reality. It does however somewhat simulate the block-3 to an extent as well so the initial results can be taken analogous to that engagement too barring the block-3s slightly smaller RCS.
> To make this engagement fair I limit the Rafale's to launch 1 weapon at each target as well.
> 
> Finally, I AM HANDS OFF - no interference.
> 
> Quick snapshot shows the detection/engagement range of the J-10(White circle at 75nm) and the weapons range in red.
> 
> View attachment 805184
> 
> 
> The Rafale has a detection range of 140nm - so nearly twice that of the J-10C shown but then its stick is shorter.
> 
> View attachment 805187
> 
> 
> Both flights proceed to engage keeping the same altitude and fairly same kinematics as well with the J-10C approaching the max weapons range
> 
> View attachment 805190
> 
> 
> At exactly 74nm the J-10Cs launch their PL-15s at the Rafales who are in weapons range for the Meteor but dont launch yet.
> 
> View attachment 805193
> 
> 
> Finally at 70NMs the Meteors are also launch and the Rafale's start to notch - the J-10Cs are still not notching!
> View attachment 805194
> 
> View attachment 805195
> 
> 
> The Meteors don't loft as much as the PL-15s but the Meteors are FASTER due to their Ramjet propulsion and get to their target FASTER!
> They go active and the J-10s are finally defending.
> 
> View attachment 805196
> 
> 
> All 4 J-10Cs are gone while the PL-15s are still in the air!
> View attachment 805197
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHEN the PL-15s do arrive they hit 2 Rafale's while the others are able to dodge and get away - thus ended attempt 1 at the simulation.
> Since it works as if a dice is rolled in terms of calculating everything from "pilot" responses to weapon impacts I ran it 3 more times.
> 
> #2 - J-10Cs all lost, 1 Rafale remains
> 
> #3 - J-10Cs 1 survives the first volley while 2 Rafale's survive. ONCE this J-10C survives and both flow Hot again, it launches at another Rafale to bring it down and survives a Meteor. It launches again at the second Rafale and brings it down as well.
> 
> #4. No J-10Cs survive and 1 Rafale Survives.
> 
> However, as I mentioned the issue lies with the simulated radar range for the J-10C and this result may reflect more the Block-3 rather than the J-10CPs.
> so perhaps suited to the other thread but the JF-17 Block-3 isnt some antidote for the Rafale and probably more akin to a numbers equalizer to outstick the IAF.
> 
> But, I wasnt done so I manipulated the database and increased the range of the J-10Cs radar to 100nm and allowing them (and the Rafale's) to guide 2 missiles at a time.
> Doing that changed the whole game entirely -
> 
> Now the J-10Cs werent only launching right at the edge of the PL-15s range but also able to notch more comfortably. The PL-15s would arrive and since they were 2 per target bring down all Rafale's
> while the meteors where still 35nm away from the J-10Cs!
> Even with their high speed at the weapon endgame the Meteors would at best bring down 2 J-10s in repeat after repeat of this scenario.
> 
> View attachment 805200
> 
> 
> 
> So - having done so I decided to put up all other assets of the PAF against the Rafale.
> 
> JF-17 Block-2 - 2 out of 4 times is unable to engage even and brought down by the Rafale - the other two tries brings down 1-2 Rafales
> 
> F-16AM with AIDEWS - Only in 1 engagement do they actually manage to evade the meteor and bring down 3 Rafales but still lose 3-4. Other cases it is 2-4 or 0-4 as well.
> 
> So, clearly the other assets of the PAF barring the JF-17 Block-3 and J-10C arent going to have it easy against the Rafale - sure, the chance of this simple straight in engagement are also nearly nil but it goes to simulate what a game changer the Rafale is for the IAF.
> 
> Why I state that is because I ran the simulation for other scenarios as well:
> 
> J-10C(100nm Radar) with /PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 4 times and in all it was 0-4 losses
> J-10C with /PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 Win 4 out of 4 times , MKI managed to bring down 1 J10C in 2 rounds.
> J-10C with /PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 4 out of 4 times , UPG managed to bring down 1 J10C in 1 round.
> J-10C vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Win 4 out of 4 times - No chance for Tejas they all went down for no loss to J-10C
> 
> JF-17 Block-3(_simulated by J-10C with 75nm Radar_) W/PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: 3 out of 4 times could not fire a single MICA and all went down
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - Win 3 out of 4 times-, MKI Won only 1 round after losing 2 of theirs.
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 2 win, 1 draw(shoot each other down) and 1 lost.
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - 4 times they all went down for no loss to Block-3
> 
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Evenly matched on rounds- When they win it is 4-3, when they lose it is 2-4.
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 1-2 JF-17 remaining
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 4 times it is an EVEN result with either 1 Mig-29 or JF-17 surviving - very surprising considering the MKI is a superior aircraft in paper specs.
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - EVEN result with 2 of either aircraft remaining after winning.
> 
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 3 out of 4.
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 3-4 F-16 remaining .
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 3 out of 4 with 2-3 F-16s remaining in all wins.
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Won all 4 times - but nearly lost in one round with 1 F-16 remaining.
> 
> So, just my thoughts are that at this point the PAF does have the superior stick against most of IAF's fleet except the Rafale.
> Stating again that this is a VERY SIMPLE scenario.
> 
> Unfortunately we do not have the Astra to simulate so cannot see what that will do to change the engagements.


Amazing, would just like to point out that the KG-300 is very dated, PAF uses the KG-700A Pods on the JF-17s and I expect they will use the same on the J-10Cs.
Not sure about China still using KG-300, but they also employ KG700 and larger 800 series pods as well.


----------



## SIPRA

Stealth said:


> *J10C is nowhere equivalent to Rafale
> however, it's good enough for a Rafael with an Indian pilot
> *



Perfect. A Rafael with an Indian pilot is no better than a "Khoti Rairhi".

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## Falcon26

SQ8 said:


> @CriticalThought
> What you posted in the other thread kept me thinking of what if I am wrong based on whatever limited information + knowledge I have.
> 
> So lets put it through the simulation: @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD in case you are interested
> 
> A flight of 4 J-10Cs with PL-15s and a flight of 4 Rafale F3Rs with Meteors.
> In total the J-10Cs carry 16 PL-15s and 8 PL-10s along with KG-300 ECM pods while the Rafale's 16 Meteors and 8 MICA EMs along with 8 MICA IRs as well(SPECTRA BUILT IN)
> Max Range of PL-15 is simulated at 92nm while the Meteor is at 75nm.
> 
> Both located at 36000ft, facing each other and at 200nm out - same simulated skill level.
> They both have access to their respective DLs and the side overall is capable of exploiting other sensors but no AEW in place.
> This is a straight charge in with no collective offset tactics or approaches - pretty much medieval knights riding to meet each other with sensor/weapons performance what we are looking to see.
> 
> Now I cannot change what the programmers of this simulation consider their values for sensor and weapons parameters and I do feel they have assigned the radar range to the J-10C lower than what it is(closer to the JF-17 Block 3) but that is offset to an extent by the range of the PL-15.
> Additionally, they also limited the J-10C to only being able to guide 1 PL-15 at a time when that is not the case in reality. It does however somewhat simulate the block-3 to an extent as well so the initial results can be taken analogous to that engagement too barring the block-3s slightly smaller RCS.
> To make this engagement fair I limit the Rafale's to launch 1 weapon at each target as well.
> 
> Finally, I AM HANDS OFF - no interference.
> 
> Quick snapshot shows the detection/engagement range of the J-10(White circle at 75nm) and the weapons range in red.
> 
> View attachment 805184
> 
> 
> The Rafale has a detection range of 140nm - so nearly twice that of the J-10C shown but then its stick is shorter.
> 
> View attachment 805187
> 
> 
> Both flights proceed to engage keeping the same altitude and fairly same kinematics as well with the J-10C approaching the max weapons range
> 
> View attachment 805190
> 
> 
> At exactly 74nm the J-10Cs launch their PL-15s at the Rafales who are in weapons range for the Meteor but dont launch yet.
> 
> View attachment 805193
> 
> 
> Finally at 70NMs the Meteors are also launch and the Rafale's start to notch - the J-10Cs are still not notching!
> View attachment 805194
> 
> View attachment 805195
> 
> 
> The Meteors don't loft as much as the PL-15s but the Meteors are FASTER due to their Ramjet propulsion and get to their target FASTER!
> They go active and the J-10s are finally defending.
> 
> View attachment 805196
> 
> 
> All 4 J-10Cs are gone while the PL-15s are still in the air!
> View attachment 805197
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHEN the PL-15s do arrive they hit 2 Rafale's while the others are able to dodge and get away - thus ended attempt 1 at the simulation.
> Since it works as if a dice is rolled in terms of calculating everything from "pilot" responses to weapon impacts I ran it 3 more times.
> 
> #2 - J-10Cs all lost, 1 Rafale remains
> 
> #3 - J-10Cs 1 survives the first volley while 2 Rafale's survive. ONCE this J-10C survives and both flow Hot again, it launches at another Rafale to bring it down and survives a Meteor. It launches again at the second Rafale and brings it down as well.
> 
> #4. No J-10Cs survive and 1 Rafale Survives.
> 
> However, as I mentioned the issue lies with the simulated radar range for the J-10C and this result may reflect more the Block-3 rather than the J-10CPs.
> so perhaps suited to the other thread but the JF-17 Block-3 isnt some antidote for the Rafale and probably more akin to a numbers equalizer to outstick the IAF.
> 
> But, I wasnt done so I manipulated the database and increased the range of the J-10Cs radar to 100nm and allowing them (and the Rafale's) to guide 2 missiles at a time.
> Doing that changed the whole game entirely -
> 
> Now the J-10Cs werent only launching right at the edge of the PL-15s range but also able to notch more comfortably. The PL-15s would arrive and since they were 2 per target bring down all Rafale's
> while the meteors where still 35nm away from the J-10Cs!
> Even with their high speed at the weapon endgame the Meteors would at best bring down 2 J-10s in repeat after repeat of this scenario.
> 
> View attachment 805200
> 
> 
> 
> So - having done so I decided to put up all other assets of the PAF against the Rafale.
> 
> JF-17 Block-2 - 2 out of 4 times is unable to engage even and brought down by the Rafale - the other two tries brings down 1-2 Rafales
> 
> F-16AM with AIDEWS - Only in 1 engagement do they actually manage to evade the meteor and bring down 3 Rafales but still lose 3-4. Other cases it is 2-4 or 0-4 as well.
> 
> So, clearly the other assets of the PAF barring the JF-17 Block-3 and J-10C arent going to have it easy against the Rafale - sure, the chance of this simple straight in engagement are also nearly nil but it goes to simulate what a game changer the Rafale is for the IAF.
> 
> Why I state that is because I ran the simulation for other scenarios as well:
> 
> J-10C(100nm Radar) with /PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 4 times and in all it was 0-4 losses
> J-10C with /PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 Win 4 out of 4 times , MKI managed to bring down 1 J10C in 2 rounds.
> J-10C with /PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 4 out of 4 times , UPG managed to bring down 1 J10C in 1 round.
> J-10C vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Win 4 out of 4 times - No chance for Tejas they all went down for no loss to J-10C
> 
> JF-17 Block-3(_simulated by J-10C with 75nm Radar_) W/PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: 3 out of 4 times could not fire a single MICA and all went down
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - Win 3 out of 4 times-, MKI Won only 1 round after losing 2 of theirs.
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 2 win, 1 draw(shoot each other down) and 1 lost.
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - 4 times they all went down for no loss to Block-3
> 
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Evenly matched on rounds- When they win it is 4-3, when they lose it is 2-4.
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 1-2 JF-17 remaining
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 4 times it is an EVEN result with either 1 Mig-29 or JF-17 surviving - very surprising considering the MKI is a superior aircraft in paper specs.
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - EVEN result with 2 of either aircraft remaining after winning.
> 
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 3 out of 4.
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 3-4 F-16 remaining .
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 3 out of 4 with 2-3 F-16s remaining in all wins.
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Won all 4 times - but nearly lost in one round with 1 F-16 remaining.
> 
> So, just my thoughts are that at this point the PAF does have the superior stick against most of IAF's fleet except the Rafale.
> Stating again that this is a VERY SIMPLE scenario.
> 
> Unfortunately we do not have the Astra to simulate so cannot see what that will do to change the engagements.



Thanks for the simulation and the very detailed analysis. This was a treat to read!

This post got me thinking of the rumored engagements between the PLAAF J-10C and Thai Saab Gripens. Does anyone know how well the J-10c performed? It should give an indication of the capability of the J-10C. @Deino @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Goritoes

SQ8 said:


> It does take jamming and atmospheric conditions along with a host of other things into consideration.
> 
> Some of their clients
> View attachment 805204



How would you rate J-10's Jamming capability, with respect to Rafale's.


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## Basel

The Eagle said:


> Also, it might have skipped through the minds of many here but, less is seen in regard to advance and modern weapon procurement like F-16 or J-10.
> 
> Taking over the command of balancing geostrategic equation and replacing a power with more influence having control to hold the region together and with equal military power balance.
> 
> Does anyone try to understand that? US always vouch and sold weapons only as per needed power balance and keeping the influence over certain parties in the region while controlling the escalation tech. We have seen it before and that too, it was kept balanced by Pakistan. Whether USSR in Afghanistan or post Afghan war, Pakistan emerges as the regional king maker.
> 
> A fact and bit of harsh reality which is more of a truth to say that US will have hard time to forget instead of people saying that PAF is obsessed and F-16 boys wouldn't let it go. Ultimately, Pakistan is the one balancing regional conventional power by keeping ahead of only warmongering PM in East. Eventually and not to surprise, China has taken over the role of balancing the regional theater by way of weapon sale and so the economic practice. The geostrategic balance command is shifted to China and who's the key here.... Pakistan.
> 
> This fact alone hitting hard or might be hard for Viper producing and blocking Country.
> 
> China is now replacing US in this regard and the show has just begun. It's not just about J-10C but that command to control and balance regional strategic games. The most sensitive and advance tech, aka J-10 is nothing less than those Vipers in 80s for PAF. Game changing and so the geostrategic referee. For US, holding back onto something such as Viper and some other stuff believing into submission by Pakistan, was the least wrong move and apparently lost it.
> 
> What's next then? Drums of unrest and chaotic situation so that Pakistan, China and Russia be affected. Pakistan could be the first Target since only Muslim nuclear power and with unsustainable economy till now.
> 
> Game rules changing and so the game itself.


Current US behavior shows that they intentionally pushing Pakistan towards China to make us evil in front of the world in future also they see India as strategic ally so it's obvious that they will punish Pakistan for failure in Afghanistan and to make India Policeman of the region.

A strong or United Pakistan is not in favor of US future plans for region.


GriffinsRule said:


> Same reason why people including me were against J-10 in PAF. Same era fighter with pretty much the same capability and hence little need to add another type to fleet.



J-10 C is on par with F-16 block-60 (at least) which means it's better then current PAF's F-16 fleet, also in any future war PAF will be facing sorties rate issue with F-16s (similar to Kargil time) as US is now strategic ally of India and silently hostile towards Pakistan, here J-10 will shine and allow PAF to conduct sorties without hassle of spares and related equipment.

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## Basel

Goritoes said:


> Does this simulation take Radar Jamming into consideration ? If yes, then I am assuming (and don't kill me for it) Rafale has the better Jamming pods compare to J-10C's, Also second question is that, I noticed that most of your simulations are in the Punjab sector, is it possible that J-10 or Rafale perform different in a more high Altitude Terrain like the Northern Sectors? Will Mountains play a role ?



PAF will deploy dedicated EW birds other then it's AEWCS so it's not that easy for Rafales to go out blazing with their EW suit.

SD-10 & AIM-120 C5 have jamming homing capability too.

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## Abid123

How credible is the rumour that PAF is considering a Chinese flanker? I know they are expensive but even Egypt a country with limited resources like Pakistan has bought 30 SU-35. I hope we could see 36 J-16 in PAF.


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## iLION12345_1

Abid123 said:


> How credible is the rumour that PAF is considering a Chinese flanker? I know they are expensive but even Egypt a country with limited resources like Pakistan has bought 30 SU-35. I hope we could see 36 J-16 in PAF.


Not credible at all and has been shot down several times, not because PAF wasn’t interested in flankers (they went directly to Russia for that), but because Chinese flankers aren’t for sale. China cannot sell them without Russian permission, and it doesn’t have said permission. It’s just the same delusional people that think China can and is ready to sell everything to Pakistan from J20 to J-16D to Nuclear submarines. 

Besides, imo flankers don’t fit in the best with PAFs doctrine (though that can always be changed).

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## Abid123

No, this comment is not written by a Indian. The guy commenting this is Pakistani. Seriously what is wrong with people like him? Sure everything Chinese is crap🤪

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## Pappa Alpha

Abid123 said:


> View attachment 805206
> 
> 
> No, this comment is not written by a Indian. The guy commenting this is Pakistani. Seriously what is wrong with people like him? Sure everything Chinese is crap🤪


It's better for your enemies to underestimate your equipment.

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## Deino

Abid123 said:


> View attachment 805206
> 
> 
> No, this comment is not written by a Indian. The guy commenting this is Pakistani. Seriously what is wrong with people like him? Sure everything Chinese is crap🤪




Could you post the tweet?

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## Abid123

Pappa Alpha said:


> It's better for your enemies to underestimate your equipment.


Brother the guy commenting that is Pakistani. But yes you are right. Indians can keep calling the J-10C "cheap Chinese junk".


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## Polestar 2

Abid123 said:


> View attachment 805206
> 
> 
> No, this comment is not written by a Indian. The guy commenting this is Pakistani. Seriously what is wrong with people like him? Sure everything Chinese is crap🤪


Come on , every countries will have some fools or ignorant. Why bother over such useless comment of some minority.

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## Abid123

Deino said:


> Could you post the tweet?


It is a Facebook post.


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## SQ8

Abid123 said:


> It is a Facebook post.


Yes - the epitome of expertise.

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## Deino

Abid123 said:


> It is a Facebook post.



Ahh! thanks ... but do you have the link?

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## luciferdd

The Terminator said:


> I was wondering about J-10C as our new Mirage too! Delivering precision nuclear tipped munitions deep into Indian territories and modernizing our nuclear triad which was lagging behind due to physical limitations of the Thunders . Slapping some RAAD cruise missiles on them or some Chinese equivalent would turn them into the real fierce dragons at stand off ranges delivering punches as and when needed and that too with complete impunity and style


The setting of the test is garbage. RBE2-AA radar is a small size radar that only have 838 T/R module,it can't has a 140NM（260KMdetection range and compare to it the radar on J-10C is a mediun size radar that have 1200+ T/R module and have a better performance than KJL-7A/LKF601 (200KM+).If RBE2-AA(838TRm) have a much better performence than APG-81(1200TRm)，then i can say the radar tech of the us are trash.

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## SQ8

Goritoes said:


> How would you rate J-10's Jamming capability, with respect to Rafale's.


Less advanced in the C bands.

One last scenario - against the PAF F-16C-52s

F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Rafale with Meteor: Lost 4 out of 4. 
F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 4 out of 4.
F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - Won 3 out of 4. 
F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 4 out of 4.
F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Win 4 out of 4.

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## Goritoes

SQ8 said:


> Less advanced in the C bands.
> 
> One last scenario - against the PAF F-16C-52s
> 
> F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Rafale with Meteor: Lost 4 out of 4.
> F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 4 out of 4.
> F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - Won 3 out of 4.
> F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 4 out of 4.
> F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Win 4 out of 4.



PAF would still rely on F-16's, that would mean that J-10'c will be flying deep within Pakistan using their long range AESA + Pl-15's from a safe distance...

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## Polestar 2

Goritoes said:


> PAF would still rely on F-16's, that would mean that J-10'c will be flying deep within Pakistan using their long range AESA + Pl-15's from a safe distance...


Not when J-10C are joining PAF, its more of PAF moving away from F-16. Sooner of later, spares and support on F-16 will be depleted as US continue to obstruct PAF modernisation and reaches a stage of no more usage just like Venezuela F-16.

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## maverick1977

White Lion said:


> The policies of Trump are causing troubles for F-16's specially the older ones as many European countries would be putting those up for sale in the immediate future. PAF was one of the prime contender for these aircraft. However it can be said that these countries would be forced to give these aircraft to Ukraine and Poland but the numbers would cause Russia to retaliate in kind.
> 
> Turkish F16's replacement tender is also under hot water so it would really become interesting.
> 
> Pakistan Navy was looking to procure some new fighter aircraft but they were asked to buy the Jf17 my the then PM. Still this procurement is open and PN could opt for J10C as well which would compliment the PAF.
> 
> Recently Biden was briefed on JF17 block3 and now the news of J10C in the PAF has given the Americans a headache. US think tanks are considering this as a bigger loss than the loss to Taliban.




Biden was briefed on JF17B3 ? seriously, where did u get this news ?

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## SQ8

Goritoes said:


> PAF would still rely on F-16's, that would mean that J-10'c will be flying deep within Pakistan using their long range AESA + Pl-15's from a safe distance...


They are still very useful jets and are likely to be relegated more and more to Defensive or limited OCA roles. 
Eventually the A airframes will be phased out by 2035 and the Cs will continue to fly until 2045. 
By then, air warfare will look very different and if the PAF is smart enough will be 1/3rd Unmanned fast fighter assets.

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## 帅的一匹

Can’t wait to see this baby in PAF color. 
Feel glad to be home

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## Salza

iLION12345_1 said:


> Besides, imo flankers don’t fit in the best with PAFs doctrine (though that can always be changed).



They do over Arabian sea. We do need double engine planes to keep P8i as far out as possible.

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## Reichsmarschall

帅的一匹 said:


> Can’t wait to see this baby in PAF color.
> Feel glad to be home


Are you wanglokan(?)

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## 帅的一匹

Reichsmarschall said:


> Are you wanglokan(?)


Yes brother, haven’t been here for a long time.

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## Reichsmarschall

帅的一匹 said:


> Yes brother, haven’t been here for a long time.


Good to have you back here 👍

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## PakAlp

SQ8 said:


> Less advanced in the C bands.
> 
> One last scenario - against the PAF F-16C-52s
> 
> F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Rafale with Meteor: Lost 4 out of 4.
> F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 4 out of 4.
> F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - Won 3 out of 4.
> F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 4 out of 4.
> F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Win 4 out of 4.



What about if it was Jf17 Block 3 instead of F16 Block 52. How will it perform against the Rafale and the rest, we all were confident that Jf17 block 3 with f16 block 52s could handle Rafale and so there is no need for J10C.

Also how would you rate the unproven chinese technology against the French Rafale tech, with the F16s we knew we had the world best technology.

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## Imran Khan

CrazyZ said:


> Yes, but China has been "all weather ally" for decades. I don't see this changing anytime soon. Chinese technology is catching up to western levels plus they have the most industrial capacity in the world. USA wont sell advanced fighter jets to Pakistan, neither will France or Sweden. Russia may but they have a historic arms partnership with India plus their AESA tech is behind China's.
> 
> Best for Pakistan to relay on combo of local arms production supplemented by direct purchases from China. Turkey or GCC may be an option in the future but not currently.
> 
> 
> I always thought Chinese flankers are the best option for PN due their longer range.

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## Tom_Cruise

NA71 said:


> View attachment 804394
> baber cruise missile attached



The 2-tonne camo looks spectacular.

Anyone have more of this/similar artwork? 🤲


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## PurpleButcher

PakAlp said:


> What about if it was Jf17 Block 3 instead of F16 Block 52. How will it perform against the Rafale and the rest, we all were confident that Jf17 block 3 with f16 block 52s could handle Rafale and so there is no need for J10C.
> 
> *Also how would you rate the unproven chinese technology against the French Rafale tech, with the F16s we knew we had the world best technology.*


Where have the rafales proven their air to air capability in a contested environment consisting of decent fighters and AEW and ECM aircrafts?

Everything coming out of China is bad and every western thing though unproven is super duper! Please grow up!

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## The Terminator

Abid123 said:


> View attachment 805206
> 
> 
> No, this comment is not written by a Indian. The guy commenting this is Pakistani. Seriously what is wrong with people like him? Sure everything Chinese is crap🤪


If that dude is living in Pakistan and using phone then he most probably be writing this comment from a well known Chinese branded phone that's assembled in Pakistan would be hypocrisy at it's best 

Bashing China from a Chinese designed mobile phone!


luciferdd said:


> The setting of the test is garbage. RBE2-AA radar is a small size radar that only have 838 T/R module,it can't has a 140NM（260KMdetection range and compare to it the radar on J-10C is a mediun size radar that have 1200+ T/R module and have a better performance than KJL-7A/LKF601 (200KM+).If RBE2-AA(838TRm) have a much better performence than APG-81(1200TRm)，then i can say the radar tech of the us are trash.


Excuse me! This post is wrongly quoted IMHO. I never trash talked any tech here.


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## 帅的一匹

PurpleButcher said:


> Where have the rafales proven their air to air capability in a contested environment consisting of decent fighters and AEW and ECM aircrafts?
> 
> Everything coming out of China is bad and every western thing though unproven is super duper! Please grow up!


PAF won’t spend a penny on anything unproven. It takes PAF 20 years to make final decision to induct J10 , especially it’s ability was fully displayed in the shaheen joint excercise.

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## The Terminator

SQ8 said:


> @CriticalThought
> What you posted in the other thread kept me thinking of what if I am wrong based on whatever limited information + knowledge I have.
> 
> So lets put it through the simulation: @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD in case you are interested
> 
> A flight of 4 J-10Cs with PL-15s and a flight of 4 Rafale F3Rs with Meteors.
> In total the J-10Cs carry 16 PL-15s and 8 PL-10s along with KG-300 ECM pods while the Rafale's 16 Meteors and 8 MICA EMs along with 8 MICA IRs as well(SPECTRA BUILT IN)
> Max Range of PL-15 is simulated at 92nm while the Meteor is at 75nm.
> 
> Both located at 36000ft, facing each other and at 200nm out - same simulated skill level.
> They both have access to their respective DLs and the side overall is capable of exploiting other sensors but no AEW in place.
> This is a straight charge in with no collective offset tactics or approaches - pretty much medieval knights riding to meet each other with sensor/weapons performance what we are looking to see.
> 
> Now I cannot change what the programmers of this simulation consider their values for sensor and weapons parameters and I do feel they have assigned the radar range to the J-10C lower than what it is(closer to the JF-17 Block 3) but that is offset to an extent by the range of the PL-15.
> Additionally, they also limited the J-10C to only being able to guide 1 PL-15 at a time when that is not the case in reality. It does however somewhat simulate the block-3 to an extent as well so the initial results can be taken analogous to that engagement too barring the block-3s slightly smaller RCS.
> To make this engagement fair I limit the Rafale's to launch 1 weapon at each target as well.
> 
> Finally, I AM HANDS OFF - no interference.
> 
> Quick snapshot shows the detection/engagement range of the J-10(White circle at 75nm) and the weapons range in red.
> 
> View attachment 805184
> 
> 
> The Rafale has a detection range of 140nm - so nearly twice that of the J-10C shown but then its stick is shorter.
> 
> View attachment 805187
> 
> 
> Both flights proceed to engage keeping the same altitude and fairly same kinematics as well with the J-10C approaching the max weapons range
> 
> View attachment 805190
> 
> 
> At exactly 74nm the J-10Cs launch their PL-15s at the Rafales who are in weapons range for the Meteor but dont launch yet.
> 
> View attachment 805193
> 
> 
> Finally at 70NMs the Meteors are also launch and the Rafale's start to notch - the J-10Cs are still not notching!
> View attachment 805194
> 
> View attachment 805195
> 
> 
> The Meteors don't loft as much as the PL-15s but the Meteors are FASTER due to their Ramjet propulsion and get to their target FASTER!
> They go active and the J-10s are finally defending.
> 
> View attachment 805196
> 
> 
> All 4 J-10Cs are gone while the PL-15s are still in the air!
> View attachment 805197
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHEN the PL-15s do arrive they hit 2 Rafale's while the others are able to dodge and get away - thus ended attempt 1 at the simulation.
> Since it works as if a dice is rolled in terms of calculating everything from "pilot" responses to weapon impacts I ran it 3 more times.
> 
> #2 - J-10Cs all lost, 1 Rafale remains
> 
> #3 - J-10Cs 1 survives the first volley while 2 Rafale's survive. ONCE this J-10C survives and both flow Hot again, it launches at another Rafale to bring it down and survives a Meteor. It launches again at the second Rafale and brings it down as well.
> 
> #4. No J-10Cs survive and 1 Rafale Survives.
> 
> However, as I mentioned the issue lies with the simulated radar range for the J-10C and this result may reflect more the Block-3 rather than the J-10CPs.
> so perhaps suited to the other thread but the JF-17 Block-3 isnt some antidote for the Rafale and probably more akin to a numbers equalizer to outstick the IAF.
> 
> But, I wasnt done so I manipulated the database and increased the range of the J-10Cs radar to 100nm and allowing them (and the Rafale's) to guide 2 missiles at a time.
> Doing that changed the whole game entirely -
> 
> Now the J-10Cs werent only launching right at the edge of the PL-15s range but also able to notch more comfortably. The PL-15s would arrive and since they were 2 per target bring down all Rafale's
> while the meteors where still 35nm away from the J-10Cs!
> Even with their high speed at the weapon endgame the Meteors would at best bring down 2 J-10s in repeat after repeat of this scenario.
> 
> View attachment 805200
> 
> 
> 
> So - having done so I decided to put up all other assets of the PAF against the Rafale.
> 
> JF-17 Block-2 - 2 out of 4 times is unable to engage even and brought down by the Rafale - the other two tries brings down 1-2 Rafales
> 
> F-16AM with AIDEWS - Only in 1 engagement do they actually manage to evade the meteor and bring down 3 Rafales but still lose 3-4. Other cases it is 2-4 or 0-4 as well.
> 
> So, clearly the other assets of the PAF barring the JF-17 Block-3 and J-10C arent going to have it easy against the Rafale - sure, the chance of this simple straight in engagement are also nearly nil but it goes to simulate what a game changer the Rafale is for the IAF.
> 
> Why I state that is because I ran the simulation for other scenarios as well:
> 
> J-10C(100nm Radar) with /PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 4 times and in all it was 0-4 losses
> J-10C with /PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 Win 4 out of 4 times , MKI managed to bring down 1 J10C in 2 rounds.
> J-10C with /PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 4 out of 4 times , UPG managed to bring down 1 J10C in 1 round.
> J-10C vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Win 4 out of 4 times - No chance for Tejas they all went down for no loss to J-10C
> 
> JF-17 Block-3(_simulated by J-10C with 75nm Radar_) W/PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: 3 out of 4 times could not fire a single MICA and all went down
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - Win 3 out of 4 times-, MKI Won only 1 round after losing 2 of theirs.
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 2 win, 1 draw(shoot each other down) and 1 lost.
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - 4 times they all went down for no loss to Block-3
> 
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Evenly matched on rounds- When they win it is 4-3, when they lose it is 2-4.
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 1-2 JF-17 remaining
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 4 times it is an EVEN result with either 1 Mig-29 or JF-17 surviving - very surprising considering the MKI is a superior aircraft in paper specs.
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - EVEN result with 2 of either aircraft remaining after winning.
> 
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 3 out of 4.
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 3-4 F-16 remaining .
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 3 out of 4 with 2-3 F-16s remaining in all wins.
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Won all 4 times - but nearly lost in one round with 1 F-16 remaining.
> 
> So, just my thoughts are that at this point the PAF does have the superior stick against most of IAF's fleet except the Rafale.
> Stating again that this is a VERY SIMPLE scenario.
> 
> Unfortunately we do not have the Astra to simulate so cannot see what that will do to change the engagements.


What impact it would have if we add long range SAMs to the both sides as well. India got longer stick in that field which would severely hinder our AEW&C and other airborne support assets.

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## Riz

Abid123 said:


> View attachment 805206
> 
> 
> No, this comment is not written by a Indian. The guy commenting this is Pakistani. Seriously what is wrong with people like him? Sure everything Chinese is crap🤪


He doesn’t know what PAF did with Isreali made spyder SAM Radars , french mirages radars on 27 feb ??

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## python-000

帅的一匹 said:


> Yes brother, haven’t been here for a long time.


Welcome back brother...☺

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## SD 10

Abid123 said:


> View attachment 805206
> 
> 
> No, this comment is not written by a Indian. The guy commenting this is Pakistani. Seriously what is wrong with people like him? Sure everything Chinese is crap🤪


brain dead fanboys.

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## Deino

帅的一匹 said:


> Yes brother, haven’t been here for a long time.




Welcome back, we truly missed you ! And I hope everything's fine.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## untitled

Wouldn't be better to rename No.15 Sqn to Fiery Dragons from Cobras so they can really be: "_Asdr shola fisshan_"


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## Deino

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> According to local rumours， these J-10C fighter jets will soon be delivered to the PAF.
> View attachment 805283
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476417405714792450




Why posting this again and again even more if you would have looked at the comments you should have noticed that these images were taken on 29th April 2021. So in fact these are 100% for sure those J-10Cs, which were delivered thru the year to the PLAAF's 25th and eventually 16th Air Brigades.

*So please, check your sources and stop spreading faked news!*







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476506496364130306

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## Polestar 2

NA71 said:


> View attachment 805286
> Very informative comparison(Indian Source)


The Su MKI BARS hyped are well known and we all know the dismay performance during 27 Feb LOC 2019. I highly doubt the credibility of this chart. Another fanboy diagram.

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## untitled

NA71 said:


> View attachment 805286
> Very informative comparison(Indian Source)


Lol.. They have messed up the Pakistani F-16 Blocks. Looks like they still haven't learned from the F-100/F-110 engine blunder

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Deino said:


> Why posting this again


Deleted my bad.

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## Deino

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Deleted my bad.




No problem and surely not as an offence against you, but the recent over-enthusiasm has lead to the posting of the same and same images, questions and rumours over and over again.
I just wanted to prevent the same hyping again.

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## siegecrossbow

NA71 said:


> View attachment 805286
> Very informative comparison(Indian Source)








Don't know about Rafale, but as per Su-30SME export brochure the max tracking range vs 3 m^2 target is 110KM. Don't see how that could balloon up to 190KM for 5M^2.

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## siegecrossbow

Falcon26 said:


> Thanks for the simulation and the very detailed analysis. This was a treat to read!
> 
> This post got me thinking of the rumored engagements between the PLAAF J-10C and Thai Saab Gripens. Does anyone know how well the J-10c performed? It should give an indication of the capability of the J-10C. @Deino @Bilal Khan (Quwa)



No official information was ever released, but according to very reliable inside source the J-10A had an edge over Gripen in 2017/2018 both in BVR and WVR. There is persistent rumor that J-10C had overwhelming advantage against the Gripen in 2019 but there is no confirmation from reliable insider.

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## Polestar 2

siegecrossbow said:


> View attachment 805311
> 
> 
> Don't know about Rafale, but as per Su-30SME export brochure the max tracking range vs 3 m^2 target is 110KM. Don't see how that could balloon up to 190KM for 5M^2.


Cant blame Indian fanboy for their marketing gimmick and the fool who take the baiting.

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## truthseeker2010

The Terminator said:


> Do you think the IAF would have such complex thought process, while in reality, they sent a couple of Mig 21s alone to takedown the mix of a fully loaded package sent by PAF alongside all other support systems in place and effective. At least you could have expected their flankers to give some cover for the MiG21s to be a sane and logical decision. But just at that moment, the Indians realized for the 1st time that JF-17 isn't really a glorified packaged F-7 but a whole new beast in fact.



The feb skrimish was an eye opener for IAF no doubt, and they did not comprehend the complete situation as well, and even PAF was not expecting such a "perfect" outcome either. Expecting the same tactics and deployment from IAF again would be foolishness of highest scale from PAF.

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## untitled

Polestar 2 said:


> Cant blame Indian fanboy for their marketing gimmick and the fool who take the baiting.


You can tell how biased they are when they out of malice don't even place the Pakistani flag next to the JF-17


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## Goenitz

Just an inncocent question...
Can chinese system relay all the information with each other? like HQ-9 and JY-27A with ZDK, JF 17 and J10? I think all the radars are made by the same comapny? If the radar company is the same then can ZDK guide PL-15 while J10 is only using IRST sensor? 
@Deino @SQ8

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## HRK

NA71 said:


> View attachment 805286
> Very informative comparison(Indian Source)


wrong info plz don't share Indian propaganda ....

this infographic is prepared by Indian fanboy

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## NA71

HRK said:


> wrong info plz don't share Indian propaganda ....
> 
> this infographic is prepared by Indian fanboy




*Deleted. *

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## GOAT

The Terminator said:


> What impact it would have if we add long range SAMs to the both sides as well. India got longer stick in that field which would severely hinder our AEW&C and other airborne support assets.


I also am wondering the same thing.


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## Riz



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## FuturePAF

Riz said:


> View attachment 805371



An “Insider view”. If we get the Twin seaters, I hope they have the same inlet. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263959286171996160

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## jupiter2007

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 25 Planes are an odd figure would be interesting to know if the figure for March 23rd is 18 , 25 or 36 Jets
> 
> 36 Seems more logical
> 
> 18 x First Squadron
> 18 x Second Squadron


InshaAllah we will have at least full two squadrons and option for 3rd.


Tshering22 said:


> I was referring to the number of jets ordered and not questioning the authenticity of the deal per se, since it means that the PAF is ordering one squadron i.e. of single-seater jets and the remaining 7 units would be dual-seater/trainer/conversion/strike versions.
> 
> Like these:
> 
> 18 of these:
> View attachment 804995
> 
> 
> 
> Twin-seater:
> View attachment 804994



no dual seater coming.


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## Riz



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## Deltadart

Abid123 said:


> View attachment 805206
> 
> 
> No, this comment is not written by a Indian. The guy commenting this is Pakistani. Seriously what is wrong with people like him? Sure everything Chinese is crap🤪


A side note to this. At one point in history, the Japanese, and then the Korean products, commercial or military, were considered nothing but junk. Fast forward few decades and see what the world thinks of their products now. Same logic applies to the Chinese now, especially to their military hardware, that is increasingly of very high caliber and quality, and it can only get better with time. BhaRATs can disparage them at their own peril, and it works to our advantage.

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## siegecrossbow

FuturePAF said:


> An “Insider view”. If we get the Twin seaters, I hope they have the same inlet.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263959286171996160



Unfortunately the only J-10 dual seater, the J-10S, not only feature conventional intake but also lacks AESA radar.

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## Riz

Riz said:


> View attachment 805399
> View attachment 805400


Dil to karta ha aik pupi idhar aor aik pupi idhar don J-10 ko

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Goenitz

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 805429


what AA is that?


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## Stealth

Many have raised this question that when we have F-16, what's the point of getting J10. J10 is basically a similar blackmailing tactic that we have seen everywhere. UAE selected Rafale just to send a msg to the Americans, no worries if you won't sell the F-35. Technically, J10C is the replacement of F16 in the longer run. Jf17, J10C + J31/J35 (2026-2028) F-16 gradually offset from the PAF btw 2027 - 2032 (more like a backup). PAF after wasting 30 years realizes, Americans are a*******

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Goenitz said:


> what AA is that?


J-10C Equipped with YJ-91 and PL-10 Missiles in that image.

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## siegecrossbow

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 805423



That's a J-10B. A quick and dirty way to tell it apart from the J-10C when the dorsal antenna isn't available is to look at the missiles being carried. J-10C mostly carry PL-10/PL-15 whereas the J-10B carry PL-8 and PL-12.

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## MastanKhan

BON PLAN said:


> Strange news.
> I read on some other threads that JF17 was far enough to protect Pakistan from india....
> 
> to be seen.



Hi,

The JF17's lack in numbers---. The upcoming BLK 3 has to go thru integration.

Paf is short by a 100 aircraft of the JF17 type capability aircraft

Those numbers had to be filled with something---BLK52's were not available.

The J10 C was there---compatible with all the weapons used on the JF17.

The J10 purchase is a LINEAR move.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Rafael AESA radars use GaAs devices. Now, GaN devices beat down GaAs by an order of margin. The game lies in the arts and sciences of depositing and engineering these III-V devices. Elbamdulillah our Turkish boys are almost there up to the Bell Labs maestro, who have a huge pool of the Chinese origin folks.

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## Windjammer

Be patient, next time you will see me sitting smoking a cigar in a J-10 or JS-10.

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## kursed

After J10C, I'd be most interested in the next generation stand off EW aircraft that PAF would opt to buy. Should keep ears to the ground for that. 

Rest assured, EW will be play a pivotal role in any next short, fast back and forth b/w IAF and PAF.

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## The Terminator

truthseeker2010 said:


> The feb skrimish was an eye opener for IAF no doubt, and they did not comprehend the complete situation as well, and even PAF was not expecting such a "perfect" outcome either. Expecting the same tactics and deployment from IAF again would be foolishness of highest scale from PAF.


When you run the Government and the military as some Bollywood movie style then you might expect anything even worse to come.

I think the greatest danger towards IAF Rafale would be their own S-400s in any future conflict. How a mix of Russian, Israeli, Western and Indian systems could work cohesively in harmony and effectively communicate with each other. And in the heat of battle things could go south really quick.

PAF having decades of experience and excellence in utilizing the combined western and Chinese systems successfully, still went to a great length to make sure to have seamless integration of advanced Chinese tech (JF-17) into the PAF with existing systems


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## kursed

truthseeker2010 said:


> The feb skrimish was an eye opener for IAF no doubt, and they did not comprehend the complete situation as well, and even PAF was not expecting such a "perfect" outcome either. Expecting the same tactics and deployment from IAF again would be foolishness of highest scale from PAF.


Absolutely on point. 

But I'd say that a lot of work has gone into PAF fixing a lot that went wrong at our end too, pre and post SR. This was not about just Feb 27th, but incl what transpired in the months after it too.

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## Trango Towers

Abid123 said:


> How credible is the rumour that PAF is considering a Chinese flanker? I know they are expensive but even Egypt a country with limited resources like Pakistan has bought 30 SU-35. I hope we could see 36 J-16 in PAF.


As you are starting the rumours its as good as a chocolate fire guard


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## RedRock

Looks more like PAF is getting J-10 jets solely for handling PN activities while keeping F-16's & JF-17's for PAF activities. Do not be fooled by US gov & Pak gov current relations. PAF and USAF go a long way back and relations are as good as they get and are not going to change anytime soon; hopefully.

A senior member(i believe it was Oscar) whom recently explained correctly how the US knows how to balance relations between IND and PAK and make sure that PAK does not get out of their grip. So, I would not bet against new F-16's or even upgrades for existing ones, just yet, since this purchase of J-10's helps in building a case for the US to send some goodies our way to maintain some sort of leverage. But, lets be sure this time to decide the amount of leverage ourselves.

Hopefully the PAF gets what they have planned for since they have hit the nail on the head so far and therfore never let us down; Mashaa Allah. So lets pray that that this time they too also make us proud and divide assets accordingly; Inshaa Allah.

Also, i believe they are working towards: data data data data..recieving, analysing, planning and execution(think of it as IOT for an airforce) all within seconds for different fields/areas(water and land) using a combination of Eastern and Western technolgies with a topping of indigenous ingenuity - I am praying that is the case - since the present and future leader of aerial warfare will be the one who has mastered the art of building, maintaining and controlling a data centric environment in the air domain e.g. F-35(a single tiny piece of the puzzle).

Cheers

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## Polestar 2

RedRock said:


> Looks more like PAF is getting J-10 jets solely for handling PN activities while keeping F-16's & JF-17's for PAF activities. Do not be fooled by US gov & Pak gov current relations. PAF and USAF go a long way back and relations are as good as they get and are not going to change anytime soon; hopefully.
> 
> A senior member(i believe it was Oscar) whom recently explained correctly how the US knows how to balance relations between IND and PAK and make sure that PAK does not get out of their grip. So, I would not bet against new F-16's or even upgrades for existing ones, just yet, since this purchase of J-10's helps in buildinga case for the US to send some goodies are way to maintain some sort of leverage. But, lets be sure this time to decide the amount of leverage ourselves.
> 
> Hopefully the PAF gets what they have planned for since they have hit the nail on the head so far and therfore never let us down; Mashaa Allah. So lets pray that that this time they too also make us proud and divide assets accordingly; Inshaa Allah.
> 
> Also, i believe they are working towards: data data data data..recieving, analysing, planning and execution(think of it as IOT for an airforce) all within seconds for different fields/areas(water and land) using a combination of Eastern and Western technolgies with a topping of indigenous ingenuity - I am praying that is the case - since the present and future leader of aerial warfare will be the one who has mastered the art of building, maintaining and controlling a data centric environment in the air domain e.g. F-35(a single tiny piece of the puzzle).
> 
> Cheers


Stop your delusion. It takes no brainer why US is now one sided partnering with india.

India is a bigger economy and is unfriendly with China. Both these criteria fits US doctrine now. If u still want to continue your delusion for further F-16 deal from US for PAF. Go ahead I am not stopping you.

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## alphapak

RedRock said:


> Looks more like PAF is getting J-10 jets solely for handling PN activities while keeping F-16's & JF-17's for PAF activities. Do not be fooled by US gov & Pak gov current relations. PAF and USAF go a long way back and relations are as good as they get and are not going to change anytime soon; hopefully.
> 
> A senior member(i believe it was Oscar) whom recently explained correctly how the US knows how to balance relations between IND and PAK and make sure that PAK does not get out of their grip. So, I would not bet against new F-16's or even upgrades for existing ones, just yet, since this purchase of J-10's helps in building a case for the US to send some goodies our way to maintain some sort of leverage. But, lets be sure this time to decide the amount of leverage ourselves.
> 
> Hopefully the PAF gets what they have planned for since they have hit the nail on the head so far and therfore never let us down; Mashaa Allah. So lets pray that that this time they too also make us proud and divide assets accordingly; Inshaa Allah.
> 
> Also, i believe they are working towards: data data data data..recieving, analysing, planning and execution(think of it as IOT for an airforce) all within seconds for different fields/areas(water and land) using a combination of Eastern and Western technolgies with a topping of indigenous ingenuity - I am praying that is the case - since the present and future leader of aerial warfare will be the one who has mastered the art of building, maintaining and controlling a data centric environment in the air domain e.g. F-35(a single tiny piece of the puzzle).
> 
> Cheers



If Pak could get the F16's block 60 or 70 they would of never gone for the J10's. But now that the J10's have been ordered
it is a final nail in strings attached F16's.


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## MultaniGuy

Polestar 2 said:


> Stop your delusion. It takes no brainer why US is now one sided partnering with india.
> 
> India is a bigger economy and is unfriendly with China. Both these criteria fits US doctrine now. If u still want to continue your delusion for further F-16 deal from US for PAF. Go ahead I am not stopping you.


Most Pakistanis like me are against future purchases of F-16s, because we know they come with "conditions" or strings attached.

Hopefully this J-10C purchase will be the final nail in the coffin for purchases with "conditions."

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## Polestar 2

MultaniGuy said:


> Most Pakistanis like me are against future purchases of F-16s, because we know they come with "conditions" or strings attached.
> 
> Hopefully this J-10C purchase will be the final nail in the coffin for purchases with "conditions."


I totally understand your concern. But there is still some delusion who cant see thru the real situation.

US anti-China doctrine are totally mad. US pushes country like Russia to totally embrace China and now is Pakistan turn. If some still think Pakistan still has chances of tinkering between US and China relationship, need to get his head check.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

RedRock said:


> Looks more like PAF is getting J-10 jets solely for handling PN activities while keeping F-16's & JF-17's for PAF activities. Do not be fooled by US gov & Pak gov current relations. PAF and USAF go a long way back and relations are as good as they get and are not going to change anytime soon; hopefully.
> 
> A senior member(i believe it was Oscar) whom recently explained correctly how the US knows how to balance relations between IND and PAK and make sure that PAK does not get out of their grip. So, I would not bet against new F-16's or even upgrades for existing ones, just yet, since this purchase of J-10's helps in building a case for the US to send some goodies our way to maintain some sort of leverage. But, lets be sure this time to decide the amount of leverage ourselves.
> 
> Hopefully the PAF gets what they have planned for since they have hit the nail on the head so far and therfore never let us down; Mashaa Allah. So lets pray that that this time they too also make us proud and divide assets accordingly; Inshaa Allah.
> 
> Also, i believe they are working towards: data data data data..recieving, analysing, planning and execution(think of it as IOT for an airforce) all within seconds for different fields/areas(water and land) using a combination of Eastern and Western technolgies with a topping of indigenous ingenuity - I am praying that is the case - since the present and future leader of aerial warfare will be the one who has mastered the art of building, maintaining and controlling a data centric environment in the air domain e.g. F-35(a single tiny piece of the puzzle).
> 
> Cheers


Being alone and _Ahmak_ are the same....

Rafaels were Pak's problem. Now, they have become Turkey's and China's problems too...

Thanks to the permanently stationed Qatari Rafaels in Turkey, every signaling pattern would be recorded, analyzed, and solved for countermeasures using semiconductor device fabrication, hardware and software techniques in a feedback loop. And, they would be made into "libraries" for land, sea and air based EW platforms. And, they'd be part of the MEHPOD (EW pod under developmemt for F-16s, TFXs). Device for device, T/R module for T/R module, algorithm for algorithm, hardware for hardware....

_Hodri Meydan...._

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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> No problem and surely not as an offence against you, but the recent over-enthusiasm has lead to the posting of the same and same images, questions and rumours over and over again.
> I just wanted to prevent the same hyping again.



You will find that members don't often read new posting on the thread before. Not everyone is serious to discuss, read, understand, add further information and continue for more info. Most of the times, people loves to post and leave without looking Back.


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## SQ8

PakAlp said:


> What about if it was Jf17 Block 3 instead of F16 Block 52. How will it perform against the Rafale and the rest, we all were confident that Jf17 block 3 with f16 block 52s could handle Rafale and so there is no need for J10C.
> 
> Also how would you rate the unproven chinese technology against the French Rafale tech, with the F16s we knew we had the world best technology.


Please go through earlier posts


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## MH.Yang

J10C's radar and missile range are stronger. Rafale are mobility(low altitude mobility&transonic mobility) and supersonic are better. In addition, J10C has poor multirole and it is a pure air superiority fighter.

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## Ali_Baba

Now that the PAF operates a "common fighter" between itself and the PLAAF, it means that as new weapons like the PL-21 become available to the PLAAF - then there is a 'chance' that PAF can eventually get them released to it.

Both PAF and PLAAF can work together to plan the MLU for the J10 platform and evolve their doctrines around it.

Additionally, war time attrition/emergency replacements will be easier aswell if required.

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## SQ8

The Terminator said:


> What impact it would have if we add long range SAMs to the both sides as well. India got longer stick in that field which would severely hinder our AEW&C and other airborne support assets.


Adding a S-400 at Adampur(probably the best place to put one as it gives both reach and depth). 

PAF Is not carrying jammers or is aware of an attack - surprise hit.

The S-400 has the ability to engage both a F-16 flight at 36000ft and a Saab-2000 at the same altitude. 
It is able to bring down the Saab-2000 successfully with 1 missile. 
it launches 8 at the F-16s north and brings down 1. 






A F-16 flight at 12000ft can be engaged at a slightly reduced distance and 1 out of 4 missiles launched will hit and kill.


Change of scenario - the PAF is aware of the threat and stays around 5000ft or below and the AEW is kept back. 

PAF aircraft can operate safely all the way upto the border.

PAF flight attempts to kill the S-400 arent successful on their own - (4 ship) and for the most part only JF-17s with MAR-1s are able to hit the S-400 flying below 1000ft. 

However, a PAF flight of JF-17s with MAR-1s supported by a Falcon 20 both survive and are able to destroy the S-400. 

That isnt cause for celebration as it also means that this flight was at a disadvantage against IAF interceptors and other systems.

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## GOAT

SQ8 said:


> Adding a S-400 at Adampur(probably the best place to put one as it gives both reach and depth).
> 
> PAF Is not carrying jammers or is aware of an attack - surprise hit.
> 
> The S-400 has the ability to engage both a F-16 flight at 36000ft and a Saab-2000 at the same altitude.
> It is able to bring down the Saab-2000 successfully with 1 missile.
> it launches 8 at the F-16s north and brings down 1.
> 
> View attachment 805490
> 
> A F-16 flight at 12000ft can be engaged at a slightly reduced distance and 1 out of 4 missiles launched will hit and kill.
> 
> 
> Change of scenario - the PAF is aware of the threat and stays around 5000ft or below and the AEW is kept back.
> 
> PAF aircraft can operate safely all the way upto the border.
> 
> PAF flight attempts to kill the S-400 arent successful on their own - (4 ship) and for the most part only JF-17s with MAR-1s are able to hit the S-400 flying below 1000ft.
> 
> However, a PAF flight of JF-17s with MAR-1s supported by a Falcon 20 both survive and are able to destroy the S-400.
> 
> That isnt cause for celebration as it also means that this flight was at a disadvantage against IAF interceptors and other systems.


Are you able to see what happens with Pakistani SAMs added to the model?

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## IceCold

SQ8 said:


> Adding a S-400 at Adampur(probably the best place to put one as it gives both reach and depth).
> 
> PAF Is not carrying jammers or is aware of an attack - surprise hit.
> 
> The S-400 has the ability to engage both a F-16 flight at 36000ft and a Saab-2000 at the same altitude.
> It is able to bring down the Saab-2000 successfully with 1 missile.
> it launches 8 at the F-16s north and brings down 1.
> 
> View attachment 805490
> 
> A F-16 flight at 12000ft can be engaged at a slightly reduced distance and 1 out of 4 missiles launched will hit and kill.
> 
> 
> Change of scenario - the PAF is aware of the threat and stays around 5000ft or below and the AEW is kept back.
> 
> PAF aircraft can operate safely all the way upto the border.
> 
> PAF flight attempts to kill the S-400 arent successful on their own - (4 ship) and for the most part only JF-17s with MAR-1s are able to hit the S-400 flying below 1000ft.
> 
> However, a PAF flight of JF-17s with MAR-1s supported by a Falcon 20 both survive and are able to destroy the S-400.
> 
> That isnt cause for celebration as it also means that this flight was at a disadvantage against IAF interceptors and other systems.


Hi,

I understand from the above scenario was pitching air assets against Indian air assets as well as destroying S-400 using MAR-1s which is as pointed out not a scenario we will like to be in considering the disadvantage against IAF interceptors. So this begs the question of whether we can use cruise missiles such as Babur to take out systems like S-400 without compromising PAF assets?
The reason behind is as soon as news broke out of the first S-400 batteries being installed in India, Babur was tested with enhanced range. Perhaps this was a coincidence but the military does not believe in coincidences.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

SQ8 said:


> Adding a S-400 at Adampur(probably the best place to put one as it gives both reach and depth).
> 
> PAF Is not carrying jammers or is aware of an attack - surprise hit.
> 
> The S-400 has the ability to engage both a F-16 flight at 36000ft and a Saab-2000 at the same altitude.
> It is able to bring down the Saab-2000 successfully with 1 missile.
> it launches 8 at the F-16s north and brings down 1.
> 
> View attachment 805490
> 
> A F-16 flight at 12000ft can be engaged at a slightly reduced distance and 1 out of 4 missiles launched will hit and kill.
> 
> 
> Change of scenario - the PAF is aware of the threat and stays around 5000ft or below and the AEW is kept back.
> 
> PAF aircraft can operate safely all the way upto the border.
> 
> PAF flight attempts to kill the S-400 arent successful on their own - (4 ship) and for the most part only JF-17s with MAR-1s are able to hit the S-400 flying below 1000ft.
> 
> However, a PAF flight of JF-17s with MAR-1s supported by a Falcon 20 both survive and are able to destroy the S-400.
> 
> That isnt cause for celebration as it also means that this flight was at a disadvantage against IAF interceptors and other systems.


Bhai i have one question.
If IAF use its air assets and S400 at the same time, will not this cause them loose their own air assets as we saw on Feb 27.

Can S400 and HQ 9 P differentiate between friend and foe in highly contested air space with both friendly and enemy assets.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> Be patient, next time you will see me sitting smoking a cigar in a J-10 or JS-10.
> 
> View attachment 805443


The air force's assumed public relations. And he even managed to fit in the JF-17!!!

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## PurpleButcher

IceCold said:


> Hi,
> 
> I understand from the above scenario was pitching air assets against Indian air assets as well as destroying S-400 using MAR-1s which is as pointed out not a scenario we will like to be in considering the disadvantage against IAF interceptors. So this begs the question of whether we can use cruise missiles such as Babur to take out systems like S-400 without compromising PAF assets?
> The reason behind is as soon as news broke out of the first S-400 batteries being installed in India, Babur was tested with enhanced range. Perhaps this was a coincidence but the military does not believe in coincidences.



The issue of using babur is that it can have a domino effect! Like in Feb 2019, both sides had missiles pointed towards each other, for each missile, we would fire 3 and so on so forth. In order to neutralize S400, we need a less riskier/suicidal approach!

Once upon a time Pakistan had strategic assets (Saab AWACS), they were neutralized by someone... cant remember the details  but just a food for thought for our planners

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## IceCold

PurpleButcher said:


> The issue of using babur is that it can have a domino effect! Like in Feb 2019, both sides had missiles pointed towards each other, for each missile, we would fire 3 and so on so forth. In order to neutralize S400, we need a less riskier/suicidal approach!
> 
> Once upon a time Pakistan had strategic assets (Saab AWACS), they were neutralized by someone... cant remember the details  but just a food for thought for our planners


Please do keep in mind that Feb-2019 was a skirmish. The above scenario is where war has already broken out and all assets are deployed by both sides including cruise missiles.


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## Deino

Guys ... could it be that you are already "a bit" off topic??

The topic is *PAF J10CP - will perform flypast on 23rd March* and now you are discussing its operational use and SAM systems and so on?

Especially since there is an appropriate thread for this already:






J-10C for PAF - Hypothetical Scenario


no no no no no ... not again ... sheesh



defence.pk





@The Eagle

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## Salza

PM IK just said it on TV that they are planning a trip to China next week though subjected to corona. Agenda will be business but just wonder, if it may include something related J10Cs as well🤔

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## araz

Polestar 2 said:


> Stop your delusion. It takes no brainer why US is now one sided partnering with india.
> 
> India is a bigger economy and is unfriendly with China. Both these criteria fits US doctrine now. If u still want to continue your delusion for further F-16 deal from US for PAF. Go ahead I am not stopping you.


The only counter to your argument is will US want to see its F16s take a drubbing against the RAFALE? How bad would that be for the image of US arsenal? Pure logic dictates the US will allow us upgrades on atleast the 52s if not the whole fleet. Whether PAF plays the game right remains to be/seen. I think what PAF wants is to get the FMS/Afunding released and pay for the upgrades that way. The US will want us to pay for the upgrade.
A

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## PanzerKiel

PurpleButcher said:


> In order to neutralize S400, we need a less riskier/suicidal approach!


There are some other means....already tried and validated.....which are available and which will be surely used for neutralization of S-400 like stuff.

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## SIPRA

PanzerKiel said:


> There are some other means....already tried and validated.....which are available and which will be surely used for neutralization of S-400 like stuff.



...... nuff said ....

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## Big_bud

I have a question guys?

What is the active fleet of fighter jets in PAF?

On wikipedia it says that we have: (Unreliable source I know)

69 Mirage 5s (Introduced: 1968) - 54 Years old - 2nd - 3rd Gen Jet
56 Mirage 3s (Introduced: 1961) - 61 Years old - 2nd - 3rd Gen Jet
54 J7s (Introduced: 1959) - 63 Years old - 2nd - 3rd Gen Jet
134 JF17 (Introduced: 2007) - 15 Years old - 3.5 - 4+ Gen Jet
75 F16 (Introduced:1978) - 44 Years old - 4th gen Jet

This adds up to 388. Is there a particular number PAF wants to maintain?
Our fleet looks very old! 69+56+54 = 179 of these jets are ancient. I know there have been some upgrades. But I think 4/5 platforms can't even fire a sidewinder because they don't have helmet mounted displays.(JF B3 will have it I know) Which basically means in a dogfight they are screwed! Plus such old planes can't be great with BVRs either, at that time there were no BVRs, they have narrow nose cones, small radars, less and old sensors. So what we have is some 200 odd F16s and JFs that are somewhat modern. Minus block 1s and block 15s and you might be looking at a number less than 100. Haven't we lost track completely? Considering India's steady acquisitions. We don't have much to pitch against very decent Mirage 2000s, MiG29s, SU30s and now Rafales.

We won't have any parity with Indian fleet if it wasn't for our hand full Block 52s. They seem to be having 616 fighter jets, out of which 432 are capable and modern. What are your views on our aging fleet? And parity with India in case of a full blown war where we have to use all our assets? Shouldn't we rather go lean & mean? We should rather have 1 or 2 types of 200-250 4.5 Gen fighters? The older lot would have extremely poor availability, long down times.


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## ARMalik

Salza said:


> PM IK just said it on TV that they are planning a trip to China next week though subjected to corona. Agenda will be business but just wonder, if it may include something related J10Cs as well🤔



J-10 old story now. There are other items on the *'wish List' not only by Pakistan but also by CHINA*. There is a serious decoupling taking place in China in preparation for critical connected Geo-events.


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## PanzerKiel

Big_bud said:


> I have a question guys?
> 
> This adds up to 388. Is there a particular number PAF wants to maintain?


Yes. It has been calculated, and then at every level, everyone is responsible to maintain that minimum number. Same goes for army as well.


Big_bud said:


> I have a question guys?
> 
> We won't have any parity with Indian fleet if it wasn't for our hand full Block 52s. They seem to be having 616 fighter jets, out of which 432 are capable and modern. What are your views on our aging fleet? And parity with India in case of a full blown war where we have to use all our assets?


IAF may be regarded at highly unbalanced......I mean they may have lot many fighters to show off, but then they do not have the corresponding number of EW / support aircraft to synergize the effects of all these assets and bring the strength of IAF on the battlefield.

Pulwama incident happened on 14 Feb, IAF went in on 26.....i mean IAF had fully 11 days to prepare the response, and prepare for PAF response as well....one wonders what they were doing for all these 11 days.


Big_bud said:


> I have a question guys?
> 
> What is the active fleet of fighter jets in PAF?
> 
> On wikipedia it says that we have: (Unreliable source I know)
> 
> 69 Mirage 5s (Introduced: 1968) - 54 Years old
> 56 Mirage 3s (Introduced: 1961) - 61 Years old
> 54 J7s (Introduced: 1959) - 63 Years old
> 134 JF17 (Introduced: 2007) - 15 Years old
> 75 F16 (Introduced:1978) - 44 Years old
> 
> This adds up to 388. Is there a particular number PAF wants to maintain?
> Our fleet looks very old! 69+56+54 = 179 of these jets are ancient. I know there have been some upgrades. But I think 4/5 platforms can't even fire a sidewinder because they don't have helmet mounted displays.(JF B3 will have it I know) Which basically means in a dogfight they are screwed! Plus such old planes can't be great with BVRs either, at that time there were no BVRs, they have narrow nose cones, small radars, less and old sensors. So what we have is some 200 odd F16s and JFs that are somewhat modern. Minus block 1s and block 15s and you might be looking at a number less than 100. Haven't we lost track completely? Considering India's steady acquisitions. We don't have much to pitch against very decent Mirage 2000s, MiG29s, SU30s and now Rafales.
> 
> We won't have any parity with Indian fleet if it wasn't for our hand full Block 52s. They seem to be having 616 fighter jets, out of which 432 are capable and modern. What are your views on our aging fleet? And parity with India in case of a full blown war where we have to use all our assets?


It was, and it never will be, a matter of numbers (ranges, quantity etc). One thing which NO ONE can quantify here is the pilot training and expertise.....the one thing which MATTERS THE MOST. 

If it were the game of numbers, the outcome of battles in the military history would have been entirely different.

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## Bleek

PanzerKiel said:


> Yes. It has been calculated, and then at every level, everyone is responsible to maintain that minimum number. Same goes for army as well.
> 
> IAF may be regarded at highly unbalanced......I mean they may have lot many fighters to show off, but then they do not have the corresponding number of EW / support aircraft to synergize the effects of all these assets and bring the strength of IAF on the battlefield.
> 
> Pulwama incident happened on 14 Feb, IAF went in on 26.....i mean IAF had fully 11 days to prepare the response, and prepare for PAF response as well....one wonders what they were doing for all these 11 days.
> 
> It was, and it never will be, a matter of numbers (ranges, quantity etc). One thing which NO ONE can quantify here is the pilot training and expertise.....the one thing which MATTERS THE MOST.
> 
> If it were the game of numbers, the outcome of battles in the military history would have been entirely different.



We need to look at this from a neutral perspective.

Deciphering the ancient Vedic combat texts to teach Abhinandan how to take down an F-16 without firing a single missile is a time consuming task

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## Big_bud

PanzerKiel said:


> Yes. It has been calculated, and then at every level, everyone is responsible to maintain that minimum number. Same goes for army as well.
> 
> IAF may be regarded at highly unbalanced......I mean they may have lot many fighters to show off, but then they do not have the corresponding number of EW / support aircraft to synergize the effects of all these assets and bring the strength of IAF on the battlefield.
> 
> Pulwama incident happened on 14 Feb, IAF went in on 26.....i mean IAF had fully 11 days to prepare the response, and prepare for PAF response as well....one wonders what they were doing for all these 11 days.
> 
> *It was, and it never will be, a matter of numbers (ranges, quantity etc). One thing which NO ONE can quantify here is the pilot training and expertise.....the one thing which MATTERS THE MOST.
> 
> If it were the game of numbers, the outcome of battles in the military history would have been entirely different.*



Pilot training is such a cliché comment. I think pilot training is becoming less and less of a difference. A 3rd gen fighter can not escape a 4.5 Gen one. Period. Ability to fire a sidewinder means they don't have to be directly at your 6 o clock. They can shoot at almost 90 degrees. Engines have come a long way, designs have improved a lot. A Mirage 5,3 or a J7 can not out turn a MiG29, Su30 or mirage 2000 by any means. Thrust makes all the difference in WVR fight. And these old jets have very low power engines. And in BVR, its basically all plane. Pilot doesn't need to do much. The plane does almost everything for you. Its more and more about technology, less about the pilot.

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## PanzerKiel

Big_bud said:


> Pilot training is such a cliché comment. I think pilot training is becoming less and less of a difference. A 3rd gen fighter can not escape a 4.5 Gen one. Period. Ability to fire a sidewinder means they don't have to be directly at your 6 o clock. They can shoot at almost 90 degrees. Engines have come a long way, designs have improved a lot. A Mirage 5,3 or a J7 can not out turn a MiG29, Su30 or mirage 2000 by any means. Thrust makes all the difference in WVR fight. And these old jets have very low power engines. And in BVR, its basically all plane. Pilot doesn't need to do much. The plane does almost everything for you. Its more and more about technology, less about the pilot.


All this whatever you have mentioned did let down USAF / allied air forces in Vietnam War, following which they had to adopt special measures including DACT, Top Gun school, its syllabus etc.....i mean they had to pay special attention to BVR fights again. ACM had been overlooked for a long time, with disastrous consequences.

These things which you have mentioned, atleast for me, bring complacency in a pilot, sometime may force you to underestimate your weak enemy as well.

This confidence is what a weaker enemy takes advantage off....we did the same in Feb 2019, when IAF had better aircraft in all respects to us....technically we should not have gone against IAF then.

Someone also shot down an F-117 with a vintage SAM system in the late 90s.

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## kursed

SQ8 said:


> Adding a S-400 at Adampur(probably the best place to put one as it gives both reach and depth).
> 
> PAF Is not carrying jammers or is aware of an attack - surprise hit.
> 
> The S-400 has the ability to engage both a F-16 flight at 36000ft and a Saab-2000 at the same altitude.
> It is able to bring down the Saab-2000 successfully with 1 missile.
> it launches 8 at the F-16s north and brings down 1.
> 
> View attachment 805490
> 
> A F-16 flight at 12000ft can be engaged at a slightly reduced distance and 1 out of 4 missiles launched will hit and kill.
> 
> 
> Change of scenario - the PAF is aware of the threat and stays around 5000ft or below and the AEW is kept back.
> 
> PAF aircraft can operate safely all the way upto the border.
> 
> PAF flight attempts to kill the S-400 arent successful on their own - (4 ship) and for the most part only JF-17s with MAR-1s are able to hit the S-400 flying below 1000ft.
> 
> However, a PAF flight of JF-17s with MAR-1s supported by a Falcon 20 both survive and are able to destroy the S-400.
> 
> That isnt cause for celebration as it also means that this flight was at a disadvantage against IAF interceptors and other systems.


Can you run this scenario, please?

PAF acquires S-400 location via 24/7/365 surveillance and sigint (WL2s). There’s no version of this where S400 batteries would remain unknown to PAF. They’re target number one, since the day they’re accepted into ORBAT. They’d be prime target for PAF’s sigint, space and imagery surveillance. 

JF-17 backed by Falcon-20, with CM-401 and MAR1 + Fatah 1 MRLS (keeps it from operating close to Pak border) via PA used against S400 and its multiple nodes.

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## Big_bud

PanzerKiel said:


> All this whatever you have mentioned did let down USAF / allied air forces in Vietnam War, following which they had to adopt special measures including DACT, Top Gun school, its syllabus etc.....i mean they had to pay special attention to BVR fights again.
> 
> These things which you have mentioned, atleast for me, bring complacency in a pilot, sometime may force you to underestimate your weak enemy as well.
> 
> This confidence is what a weaker enemy takes advantage off....we did the same in Feb 2019, when IAF had better aircraft in all respects to us....technically we should not have gone against IAF then.
> 
> Someone also shot down an F-117 with a vintage SAM system in the late 90s.



How many jets did Vietnam loose in the process? This attitude & argument won't prepare us for the future. Future is of AI, drones and loyal wingmen. Yes pilots are important and no denying that. But there's no benefit in fooling ourselves either. I am sure PAF is trying to make best use of resources. But I think PAF desperately needs more fundings.

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## PanzerKiel

Big_bud said:


> How many jets did Vietnam loose in the process?


As per wikipedia, US and its allies lost almost 12,500 aircraft (all types). North Vietnam, on the other hand lost 150 -170 aircraft.








List of aircraft losses of the Vietnam War - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org





Over and above, losses dont define victory. Victory is attained once you achieve your mission / objective...whatever the cost (Soviets, Koreans, Vietnam etc)

This also shows the value of synergy between different arms and services. One cannot win a war just by having good aircraft.

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## IblinI

Big_bud said:


> Future is of AI, drones and loyal wingmen


They are indeed a hot topic these days but wont be mature before 2040.


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## Big_bud

PanzerKiel said:


> As per wikipedia, US and its allies lost almost 12,500 aircraft (all types). North Vietnam, on the other hand lost 150 -170 aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List of aircraft losses of the Vietnam War - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Over and above, losses dont define victory. Victory is attained once you achieve your mission / objective...whatever the cost (Soviets, Koreans, Vietnam etc)
> 
> This also shows the value of synergy between different arms and services. One cannot win a war just by having good aircraf.



Thats one way to look at it. But tell me what can Pakistan do with these F7s and Mirages which it can't do without? What if our inventory was only 200 4.5 Gens - all 20 yrs old or less. I think our defence would be way stronger with that? Because atm we don't even have 100 4Gens.


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## PanzerKiel

Big_bud said:


> Thats one way to look at it. But tell me what can Pakistan do with these F7s and Mirages which it can't do without? What if our inventory was only 200 4.5 Gens - all 20 yrs old or less. I think our defence would be way stronger with that? Because atm we don't even have 100 4Gens.


It's an ongoing process. We have to live with it due to our different constraints....

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## Fioril

Big_bud said:


> Thats one way to look at it. But tell me what can Pakistan do with these F7s and Mirages which it can't do without? What if our inventory was only 200 4.5 Gens - all 20 yrs old or less. I think our defence would be way stronger with that? Because atm we don't even have 100 4Gens.


Hopefully with the induction of J-10 and Blk 3 along with upgradation of older blocks ,the number will increase to 200 by 2025.


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## Goenitz

Big_bud said:


> Pilot training is such a cliché comment. I think pilot training is becoming less and less of a difference. A* 3rd gen fighter can not escape a 4.5 Gen one. Period*. Ability to fire a sidewinder means they don't have to be directly at your 6 o clock. They can shoot at almost 90 degrees. Engines have come a long way, designs have improved a lot. A Mirage 5,3 or a J7 can not out turn a MiG29, Su30 or mirage 2000 by any means. Thrust makes all the difference in WVR fight. And these old jets have very low power engines. And in BVR, its basically all plane. Pilot doesn't need to do much. The plane does almost everything for you*. Its more and more about technology, less about the pilot.*


Your argument is valid however complexties are still there in operating the aircraft. I mean DOS were way difficult than windows today but one still need to learn new software, besides operating system.

Pilot is everything. Think of todays cars. RBI, automatic traction, CVT, etc but still, skills are required to drive the car in a race. Now imagine, driving and shooting simultaneously. The gadgets will help (automatic lock etc), but you must be skillful to be in favourable position.

Then come the synergy and network centric systems. It is more like to use information from other systems without using yours to take down the enemy. Its like clearing obstacles with blindfold, on voice cues.

Overall, old systems were cumbersome and used to perform limited actions. Todays system perform a lot of functions, easy but a lot to learn to attain mastery.

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## Basel

SQ8 said:


> Adding a S-400 at Adampur(probably the best place to put one as it gives both reach and depth).
> 
> PAF Is not carrying jammers or is aware of an attack - surprise hit.
> 
> The S-400 has the ability to engage both a F-16 flight at 36000ft and a Saab-2000 at the same altitude.
> It is able to bring down the Saab-2000 successfully with 1 missile.
> it launches 8 at the F-16s north and brings down 1.
> 
> View attachment 805490
> 
> A F-16 flight at 12000ft can be engaged at a slightly reduced distance and 1 out of 4 missiles launched will hit and kill.
> 
> 
> Change of scenario - the PAF is aware of the threat and stays around 5000ft or below and the AEW is kept back.
> 
> PAF aircraft can operate safely all the way upto the border.
> 
> PAF flight attempts to kill the S-400 arent successful on their own - (4 ship) and for the most part only JF-17s with MAR-1s are able to hit the S-400 flying below 1000ft.
> 
> However, a PAF flight of JF-17s with MAR-1s supported by a Falcon 20 both survive and are able to destroy the S-400.
> 
> That isnt cause for celebration as it also means that this flight was at a disadvantage against IAF interceptors and other systems.



How about using combination of GLCMs, MBRLs (like Fateh-1,2 etc.), drone swarms, suicide drones,. ALCMs and Standoff Munitions for SEAD mission against against Indian air defense, we can not just go after one system like S-400 as enemy have layered air defense.


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## m52k85

SQ8 said:


> @CriticalThought
> What you posted in the other thread kept me thinking of what if I am wrong based on whatever limited information + knowledge I have.
> 
> So lets put it through the simulation: @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD in case you are interested
> 
> A flight of 4 J-10Cs with PL-15s and a flight of 4 Rafale F3Rs with Meteors.
> In total the J-10Cs carry 16 PL-15s and 8 PL-10s along with KG-300 ECM pods while the Rafale's 16 Meteors and 8 MICA EMs along with 8 MICA IRs as well(SPECTRA BUILT IN)
> Max Range of PL-15 is simulated at 92nm while the Meteor is at 75nm.
> 
> Both located at 36000ft, facing each other and at 200nm out - same simulated skill level.
> They both have access to their respective DLs and the side overall is capable of exploiting other sensors but no AEW in place.
> This is a straight charge in with no collective offset tactics or approaches - pretty much medieval knights riding to meet each other with sensor/weapons performance what we are looking to see.
> 
> Now I cannot change what the programmers of this simulation consider their values for sensor and weapons parameters and I do feel they have assigned the radar range to the J-10C lower than what it is(closer to the JF-17 Block 3) but that is offset to an extent by the range of the PL-15.
> Additionally, they also limited the J-10C to only being able to guide 1 PL-15 at a time when that is not the case in reality. It does however somewhat simulate the block-3 to an extent as well so the initial results can be taken analogous to that engagement too barring the block-3s slightly smaller RCS.
> To make this engagement fair I limit the Rafale's to launch 1 weapon at each target as well.
> 
> Finally, I AM HANDS OFF - no interference.
> 
> Quick snapshot shows the detection/engagement range of the J-10(White circle at 75nm) and the weapons range in red.
> 
> View attachment 805184
> 
> 
> The Rafale has a detection range of 140nm - so nearly twice that of the J-10C shown but then its stick is shorter.
> 
> View attachment 805187
> 
> 
> Both flights proceed to engage keeping the same altitude and fairly same kinematics as well with the J-10C approaching the max weapons range
> 
> View attachment 805190
> 
> 
> At exactly 74nm the J-10Cs launch their PL-15s at the Rafales who are in weapons range for the Meteor but dont launch yet.
> 
> View attachment 805193
> 
> 
> Finally at 70NMs the Meteors are also launch and the Rafale's start to notch - the J-10Cs are still not notching!
> View attachment 805194
> 
> View attachment 805195
> 
> 
> The Meteors don't loft as much as the PL-15s but the Meteors are FASTER due to their Ramjet propulsion and get to their target FASTER!
> They go active and the J-10s are finally defending.
> 
> View attachment 805196
> 
> 
> All 4 J-10Cs are gone while the PL-15s are still in the air!
> View attachment 805197
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHEN the PL-15s do arrive they hit 2 Rafale's while the others are able to dodge and get away - thus ended attempt 1 at the simulation.
> Since it works as if a dice is rolled in terms of calculating everything from "pilot" responses to weapon impacts I ran it 3 more times.
> 
> #2 - J-10Cs all lost, 1 Rafale remains
> 
> #3 - J-10Cs 1 survives the first volley while 2 Rafale's survive. ONCE this J-10C survives and both flow Hot again, it launches at another Rafale to bring it down and survives a Meteor. It launches again at the second Rafale and brings it down as well.
> 
> #4. No J-10Cs survive and 1 Rafale Survives.
> 
> However, as I mentioned the issue lies with the simulated radar range for the J-10C and this result may reflect more the Block-3 rather than the J-10CPs.
> so perhaps suited to the other thread but the JF-17 Block-3 isnt some antidote for the Rafale and probably more akin to a numbers equalizer to outstick the IAF.
> 
> But, I wasnt done so I manipulated the database and increased the range of the J-10Cs radar to 100nm and allowing them (and the Rafale's) to guide 2 missiles at a time.
> Doing that changed the whole game entirely -
> 
> Now the J-10Cs werent only launching right at the edge of the PL-15s range but also able to notch more comfortably. The PL-15s would arrive and since they were 2 per target bring down all Rafale's
> while the meteors where still 35nm away from the J-10Cs!
> Even with their high speed at the weapon endgame the Meteors would at best bring down 2 J-10s in repeat after repeat of this scenario.
> 
> View attachment 805200
> 
> 
> 
> So - having done so I decided to put up all other assets of the PAF against the Rafale.
> 
> JF-17 Block-2 - 2 out of 4 times is unable to engage even and brought down by the Rafale - the other two tries brings down 1-2 Rafales
> 
> F-16AM with AIDEWS - Only in 1 engagement do they actually manage to evade the meteor and bring down 3 Rafales but still lose 3-4. Other cases it is 2-4 or 0-4 as well.
> 
> So, clearly the other assets of the PAF barring the JF-17 Block-3 and J-10C arent going to have it easy against the Rafale - sure, the chance of this simple straight in engagement are also nearly nil but it goes to simulate what a game changer the Rafale is for the IAF.
> 
> Why I state that is because I ran the simulation for other scenarios as well:
> 
> J-10C(100nm Radar) with /PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 4 times and in all it was 0-4 losses
> J-10C with /PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 Win 4 out of 4 times , MKI managed to bring down 1 J10C in 2 rounds.
> J-10C with /PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 4 out of 4 times , UPG managed to bring down 1 J10C in 1 round.
> J-10C vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Win 4 out of 4 times - No chance for Tejas they all went down for no loss to J-10C
> 
> JF-17 Block-3(_simulated by J-10C with 75nm Radar_) W/PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: 3 out of 4 times could not fire a single MICA and all went down
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - Win 3 out of 4 times-, MKI Won only 1 round after losing 2 of theirs.
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 2 win, 1 draw(shoot each other down) and 1 lost.
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - 4 times they all went down for no loss to Block-3
> 
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Evenly matched on rounds- When they win it is 4-3, when they lose it is 2-4.
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 1-2 JF-17 remaining
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 4 times it is an EVEN result with either 1 Mig-29 or JF-17 surviving - very surprising considering the MKI is a superior aircraft in paper specs.
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - EVEN result with 2 of either aircraft remaining after winning.
> 
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 3 out of 4.
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 3-4 F-16 remaining .
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 3 out of 4 with 2-3 F-16s remaining in all wins.
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Won all 4 times - but nearly lost in one round with 1 F-16 remaining.
> 
> So, just my thoughts are that at this point the PAF does have the superior stick against most of IAF's fleet except the Rafale.
> Stating again that this is a VERY SIMPLE scenario.
> 
> Unfortunately we do not have the Astra to simulate so cannot see what that will do to change the engagements.


Thanks great post!
Just one question, why does that J-10 suddenly notch when it has a greater detection range? Since a notch is performed well below the max detection range, I would imagine that value wouldnt factor into ability or decision to notch.


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## retaxis

can't go wrong with either J-11B, J-10C or J-16D.

J-20 and J-31 are not for sale yet


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## Deino

retaxis said:


> can't go wrong with either J-11B, J-10C or J-16D.
> 
> J-20 and J-31 are not for sale yet



J-11 & J-16 too.


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## Riz



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## MH.Yang



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## iLION12345_1

retaxis said:


> can't go wrong with either J-11B, J-10C or J-16D.
> 
> J-20 and J-31 are not for sale yet


J-10C is the only one for sale among those, that too with Pakistan as the first potential customer. J-35 is expected to be for sale later, the rest are not and likely will never be sold to foreign countries.

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## MH.Yang

retaxis said:


> can't go wrong with either J-11B, J-10C or J-16D.
> 
> J-20 and J-31 are not for sale yet


If Russia does not agree, China cannot sell J11 and J16, but J15 can be sold, and J15 is a carrier plane.
J20 will probably never be sold, just like F22. 
J10C and J31 should be available for sale. But J31 is a naval project, and the army variant of J31 may need to wait a long time(2030-2035).
But the J10C is a pure air superiority fighter, and its multirole is poor, it is not suitable for countries with low budgets. The JF17 engine is controlled by Russia. So China usually sells K8 fighters.
The sales volume of K8 is very good, and 400+ K8 have been exported.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

PanzerKiel said:


> There are some other means....already tried and validated.....which are available and which will be surely used for neutralization of S-400 like stuff.


Pak can play with S-400 like a cat plays with the mouse before devouring it...

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## Riz

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Pak can play with S-400 like a cat plays with the mouse before devouring it...


Indian S-400 at war time

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## TsAr

Raider 21 said:


> The air force's assumed public relations. And he even managed to fit in the JF-17!!!


he is short but fat, amazed how they managed to get him upto the cockpit even. I think he was dropped using a crane

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## MastanKhan

Polestar 2 said:


> Stop your delusion. It takes no brainer why US is now one sided partnering with india.
> 
> *India is a bigger economy and is unfriendly with China. Both these criteria fits US doctrine now. If u still want to continue your delusion for further F-16 deal from US for PAF. Go ahead I am not stopping you.*



Hi,

That is somewhat incorrect analysis.

The US only cares how you market itself to the americans---*and pakistanis have failed miserably in managing their position over the last 3 decades and specially since 9/11.*

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## Pappa Alpha

MH.Yang said:


> View attachment 805564
> 
> View attachment 805565
> 
> View attachment 805566


Why is that J20 pilot not wearing anything? Too stealthy for clothes

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

As more information has come out & something new that you guys might know or will learn shortly---. *Pakistan may have received these aircraft for free---possibly on lease for testing basis*---.

I had told you guys many a years ago that this was coming---the critical relationship between china and pakistan has many a surprises. @Deino @araz

*I do not know how the super studs at SINODEF forum would take that news*---a collection of fools---computer savy---clever and smart as sh-it---but totally clueless as to how defence deals are done amongst allies.

First the type 054's

then the submarines

and now the J10 CE's

but then I do not know about any missile deals

I would also like to have at least 18 JH7A's as well with the updated ew package and weapons systems.

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## The Terminator

SQ8 said:


> Adding a S-400 at Adampur(probably the best place to put one as it gives both reach and depth).
> 
> PAF Is not carrying jammers or is aware of an attack - surprise hit.
> 
> The S-400 has the ability to engage both a F-16 flight at 36000ft and a Saab-2000 at the same altitude.
> It is able to bring down the Saab-2000 successfully with 1 missile.
> it launches 8 at the F-16s north and brings down 1.
> 
> View attachment 805490
> 
> A F-16 flight at 12000ft can be engaged at a slightly reduced distance and 1 out of 4 missiles launched will hit and kill.
> 
> 
> Change of scenario - the PAF is aware of the threat and stays around 5000ft or below and the AEW is kept back.
> 
> PAF aircraft can operate safely all the way upto the border.
> 
> PAF flight attempts to kill the S-400 arent successful on their own - (4 ship) and for the most part only JF-17s with MAR-1s are able to hit the S-400 flying below 1000ft.
> 
> However, a PAF flight of JF-17s with MAR-1s supported by a Falcon 20 both survive and are able to destroy the S-400.
> 
> That isnt cause for celebration as it also means that this flight was at a disadvantage against IAF interceptors and other systems.


Flying fighters low and along with limited effective range of AWACS due to it being flying far away deep into the safe zone of Pakistani airspace creates a significant issue in situational awareness for the fighters conducting Ops at or beyond the enemy borders. Dedicated EW platforms also in constant threat from the S400s. That alone gives the IAF a tactical advantage against PAF fighters without firing a missile at them.

Could that be an effective A2/AD setup against PAF? And what would PAF do to turn conditions into it's favor? Utilize drones, fighters or surface to surface munitions (missiles, rockets) to effectively suppress or eliminate the long range SAM threat from India.


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## The Terminator

Riz said:


> View attachment 805399
> View attachment 805400


Now who would be the sexiest fighter of PAF? F-16 or J-10C !!! 


Deltadart said:


> A side note to this. At one point in history, the Japanese, and then the Korean products, commercial or military, were considered nothing but junk. Fast forward few decades and see what the world thinks of their products now. Same logic applies to the Chinese now, especially to their military hardware, that is increasingly of very high caliber and quality, and it can only get better with time. BhaRATs can disparage them at their own peril, and it works to our advantage.


I know that really well. Japanese were once consider small, shitty, cheap products. Now their products are benchmarks of quality, reliability and effectiveness.


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## The Terminator

Stealth said:


> Many have raised this question that when we have F-16, what's the point of getting J10. J10 is basically a similar blackmailing tactic that we have seen everywhere. UAE selected Rafale just to send a msg to the Americans, no worries if you won't sell the F-35. Technically, J10C is the replacement of F16 in the longer run. Jf17, J10C + J31/J35 (2026-2028) F-16 gradually offset from the PAF btw 2027 - 2032 (more like a backup). PAF after wasting 30 years realizes, Americans are a*******


Instead of wasting your own precious 30 years to come to this conclusion. Pakistani decision makers could have studied 30 years of US history from anywhere. So they could have realized this fact in less than a year, but they wasted nation's 30 years to figure out how much a******* US are.

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## The Terminator

Polestar 2 said:


> I totally understand your concern. But there is still some delusion who cant see thru the real situation.
> 
> US anti-China doctrine are totally mad. US pushes country like Russia to totally embrace China and now is Pakistan turn. If some still think Pakistan still has chances of tinkering between US and China relationship, need to get his head check.


Pakistan's lifline lies in that carefully planned tinkering and stop being a lapdog of anyone. Pak-China relations are now at a point similar to the Pak-US relation at the peak of the cold war. Pakistan shouldn't repeat the same mistakes. Get your house in order, have a sustainable economy, diversify your friend's list and never again put all your eggs in one basket only.

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## StructE

The Terminator said:


> Pakistan's lifline lies in that carefully planned tinkering and stop being a lapdog of anyone. Pak-China relations are now at a point similar to the Pak-US relation at the peak of the cold war. Pakistan shouldn't repeat the same mistakes. Get your house in order, have a sustainable economy, diversify your friend's list and never again put all your eggs in one basket only.


Relations remain viable even after decades if both parties see wroth in each other. Pakistan could have been South Korea and US would love to be friends with Pakistan.


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## JawadKKhan

BON PLAN said:


> Strange news.
> I read on some other threads that JF17 was far enough to protect Pakistan from india....
> 
> to be seen.


Protect Pakistan from India ?? PAF is a force, which attacks india after Pakistan announced that it will respond, PAF attacks them at their highest level of air alert in broad day light... So you have to worry about india's protection not other way around. 


BTW! Yes heard right, The JF-17s are the main fighter jet of PAF which will be countering the maximum of Indian air force. 

Every aircraft will play its role. J-10s / F-16s will play their part.

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## akramishaqkhan

SQ8 said:


> @CriticalThought
> What you posted in the other thread kept me thinking of what if I am wrong based on whatever limited information + knowledge I have.
> 
> So lets put it through the simulation: @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD in case you are interested
> 
> A flight of 4 J-10Cs with PL-15s and a flight of 4 Rafale F3Rs with Meteors.
> In total the J-10Cs carry 16 PL-15s and 8 PL-10s along with KG-300 ECM pods while the Rafale's 16 Meteors and 8 MICA EMs along with 8 MICA IRs as well(SPECTRA BUILT IN)
> Max Range of PL-15 is simulated at 92nm while the Meteor is at 75nm.
> 
> Both located at 36000ft, facing each other and at 200nm out - same simulated skill level.
> They both have access to their respective DLs and the side overall is capable of exploiting other sensors but no AEW in place.
> This is a straight charge in with no collective offset tactics or approaches - pretty much medieval knights riding to meet each other with sensor/weapons performance what we are looking to see.
> 
> Now I cannot change what the programmers of this simulation consider their values for sensor and weapons parameters and I do feel they have assigned the radar range to the J-10C lower than what it is(closer to the JF-17 Block 3) but that is offset to an extent by the range of the PL-15.
> Additionally, they also limited the J-10C to only being able to guide 1 PL-15 at a time when that is not the case in reality. It does however somewhat simulate the block-3 to an extent as well so the initial results can be taken analogous to that engagement too barring the block-3s slightly smaller RCS.
> To make this engagement fair I limit the Rafale's to launch 1 weapon at each target as well.
> 
> Finally, I AM HANDS OFF - no interference.
> 
> Quick snapshot shows the detection/engagement range of the J-10(White circle at 75nm) and the weapons range in red.
> 
> View attachment 805184
> 
> 
> The Rafale has a detection range of 140nm - so nearly twice that of the J-10C shown but then its stick is shorter.
> 
> View attachment 805187
> 
> 
> Both flights proceed to engage keeping the same altitude and fairly same kinematics as well with the J-10C approaching the max weapons range
> 
> View attachment 805190
> 
> 
> At exactly 74nm the J-10Cs launch their PL-15s at the Rafales who are in weapons range for the Meteor but dont launch yet.
> 
> View attachment 805193
> 
> 
> Finally at 70NMs the Meteors are also launch and the Rafale's start to notch - the J-10Cs are still not notching!
> View attachment 805194
> 
> View attachment 805195
> 
> 
> The Meteors don't loft as much as the PL-15s but the Meteors are FASTER due to their Ramjet propulsion and get to their target FASTER!
> They go active and the J-10s are finally defending.
> 
> View attachment 805196
> 
> 
> All 4 J-10Cs are gone while the PL-15s are still in the air!
> View attachment 805197
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHEN the PL-15s do arrive they hit 2 Rafale's while the others are able to dodge and get away - thus ended attempt 1 at the simulation.
> Since it works as if a dice is rolled in terms of calculating everything from "pilot" responses to weapon impacts I ran it 3 more times.
> 
> #2 - J-10Cs all lost, 1 Rafale remains
> 
> #3 - J-10Cs 1 survives the first volley while 2 Rafale's survive. ONCE this J-10C survives and both flow Hot again, it launches at another Rafale to bring it down and survives a Meteor. It launches again at the second Rafale and brings it down as well.
> 
> #4. No J-10Cs survive and 1 Rafale Survives.
> 
> However, as I mentioned the issue lies with the simulated radar range for the J-10C and this result may reflect more the Block-3 rather than the J-10CPs.
> so perhaps suited to the other thread but the JF-17 Block-3 isnt some antidote for the Rafale and probably more akin to a numbers equalizer to outstick the IAF.
> 
> But, I wasnt done so I manipulated the database and increased the range of the J-10Cs radar to 100nm and allowing them (and the Rafale's) to guide 2 missiles at a time.
> Doing that changed the whole game entirely -
> 
> Now the J-10Cs werent only launching right at the edge of the PL-15s range but also able to notch more comfortably. The PL-15s would arrive and since they were 2 per target bring down all Rafale's
> while the meteors where still 35nm away from the J-10Cs!
> Even with their high speed at the weapon endgame the Meteors would at best bring down 2 J-10s in repeat after repeat of this scenario.
> 
> View attachment 805200
> 
> 
> 
> So - having done so I decided to put up all other assets of the PAF against the Rafale.
> 
> JF-17 Block-2 - 2 out of 4 times is unable to engage even and brought down by the Rafale - the other two tries brings down 1-2 Rafales
> 
> F-16AM with AIDEWS - Only in 1 engagement do they actually manage to evade the meteor and bring down 3 Rafales but still lose 3-4. Other cases it is 2-4 or 0-4 as well.
> 
> So, clearly the other assets of the PAF barring the JF-17 Block-3 and J-10C arent going to have it easy against the Rafale - sure, the chance of this simple straight in engagement are also nearly nil but it goes to simulate what a game changer the Rafale is for the IAF.
> 
> Why I state that is because I ran the simulation for other scenarios as well:
> 
> J-10C(100nm Radar) with /PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 4 times and in all it was 0-4 losses
> J-10C with /PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 Win 4 out of 4 times , MKI managed to bring down 1 J10C in 2 rounds.
> J-10C with /PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 4 out of 4 times , UPG managed to bring down 1 J10C in 1 round.
> J-10C vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Win 4 out of 4 times - No chance for Tejas they all went down for no loss to J-10C
> 
> JF-17 Block-3(_simulated by J-10C with 75nm Radar_) W/PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: 3 out of 4 times could not fire a single MICA and all went down
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - Win 3 out of 4 times-, MKI Won only 1 round after losing 2 of theirs.
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 2 win, 1 draw(shoot each other down) and 1 lost.
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - 4 times they all went down for no loss to Block-3
> 
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Evenly matched on rounds- When they win it is 4-3, when they lose it is 2-4.
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 1-2 JF-17 remaining
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 4 times it is an EVEN result with either 1 Mig-29 or JF-17 surviving - very surprising considering the MKI is a superior aircraft in paper specs.
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - EVEN result with 2 of either aircraft remaining after winning.
> 
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 3 out of 4.
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 3-4 F-16 remaining .
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 3 out of 4 with 2-3 F-16s remaining in all wins.
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Won all 4 times - but nearly lost in one round with 1 F-16 remaining.
> 
> So, just my thoughts are that at this point the PAF does have the superior stick against most of IAF's fleet except the Rafale.
> Stating again that this is a VERY SIMPLE scenario.
> 
> Unfortunately we do not have the Astra to simulate so cannot see what that will do to change the engagements.


Great job - if you dont mind me asking - what did you use to run the simulation? DCS? 

Just a few variables to add that are very hard to simulate:

1) Ground clutter interference
2) Active Airborne electronic jamming and interference
3) PAF and IAF (fighter based) electronic platforms
4) Integrated ops and speed to action event through AWACS management
5) Tactics to counter missiles
6) Ground based jamming
7) Ground based missile threats
8) Unit failures in man and machines and missiles
9) Pilot and group training

2-3 additional variables exist that can change the outcome of the above mentioned engagements.

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## araz

Raider 21 said:


> The air force's assumed public relations. And he even managed to fit in the JF-17!!!


Yes! You cannot say the JFT cockpit is cramped if sheiko can fit in. On a side note how the hell did he get in in the first place?

A

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## akramishaqkhan

PanzerKiel said:


> There are some other means....already tried and validated.....which are available and which will be surely used for neutralization of S-400 like stuff.


I dont think people realize that PK Armed forces began war gaming S400 a while back.
First don't count on India maintaining S400 units within 100-150KM of the border. They are likely to use these units for air protection against critical military and civilian sites further inland. Their peace time placement is no guarantee of their war time placement.

Second PK Armed forces goal of pushing S400 away from the border is a foregone conclusion. Reason for that is the minute the S400 tracks it paints itself and if within range will expose itself to 4 different type of PK actions. Keep in mind we will go after the Radar and control system not the missile batteries. I wont get into the specifics of what those 4 options are, but PK has atleast 4 different options to engage the S400. I expect S400 to be more actively engaged against PK BMs for more India internal ranged targets than against PAF fighters. During war the clutter in the air along the border will make them very tricky to use effectively.

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## araz

PanzerKiel said:


> It's an ongoing process. We have to live with it due to our different constraints....


Adding to your post, please look at the IAF inventory of mig21s as well. They too will suffer the same way that we will.
A

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## GriffinsRule

Big_bud said:


> I have a question guys?
> 
> What is the active fleet of fighter jets in PAF?
> 
> On wikipedia it says that we have: (Unreliable source I know)
> 
> 69 Mirage 5s (Introduced: 1968) - 54 Years old - 2nd - 3rd Gen Jet
> 56 Mirage 3s (Introduced: 1961) - 61 Years old - 2nd - 3rd Gen Jet
> 54 J7s (Introduced: 1959) - 63 Years old - 2nd - 3rd Gen Jet
> 134 JF17 (Introduced: 2007) - 15 Years old - 3.5 - 4+ Gen Jet
> 75 F16 (Introduced:1978) - 44 Years old - 4th gen Jet
> 
> This adds up to 388. Is there a particular number PAF wants to maintain?
> Our fleet looks very old! 69+56+54 = 179 of these jets are ancient. I know there have been some upgrades. But I think 4/5 platforms can't even fire a sidewinder because they don't have helmet mounted displays.(JF B3 will have it I know) Which basically means in a dogfight they are screwed! Plus such old planes can't be great with BVRs either, at that time there were no BVRs, they have narrow nose cones, small radars, less and old sensors. So what we have is some 200 odd F16s and JFs that are somewhat modern. Minus block 1s and block 15s and you might be looking at a number less than 100. Haven't we lost track completely? Considering India's steady acquisitions. We don't have much to pitch against very decent Mirage 2000s, MiG29s, SU30s and now Rafales.
> 
> We won't have any parity with Indian fleet if it wasn't for our hand full Block 52s. They seem to be having 616 fighter jets, out of which 432 are capable and modern. What are your views on our aging fleet? And parity with India in case of a full blown war where we have to use all our assets? Shouldn't we rather go lean & mean? We should rather have 1 or 2 types of 200-250 4.5 Gen fighters? The older lot would have extremely poor availability, long down times.


Why would you minus Block 15s (MLU to same as standard as Block 52) and JF-17 Block 1 (Updated to the same standard as Block 2)?
So in essence 200 vs 450? Seems like very good odds to me and much better then historic precedents and only improving as more JF-17s slowly enter service.

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## MastanKhan

StructE said:


> Relations remain viable even after decades if both parties see wroth in each other. Pakistan could have been South Korea and US would love to be friends with Pakistan.



Hi,

Pakistan would never be So Korea---.

Answer me---can the US convert pakistani mulsims to evangelical christians---no way---.

How about No Korea---americans hope one day they will.

There you have the answer.

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## ziaulislam

Big_bud said:


> I have a question guys?
> 
> What is the active fleet of fighter jets in PAF?
> 
> On wikipedia it says that we have: (Unreliable source I know)
> 
> 69 Mirage 5s (Introduced: 1968) - 54 Years old - 2nd - 3rd Gen Jet
> 56 Mirage 3s (Introduced: 1961) - 61 Years old - 2nd - 3rd Gen Jet
> 54 J7s (Introduced: 1959) - 63 Years old - 2nd - 3rd Gen Jet
> 134 JF17 (Introduced: 2007) - 15 Years old - 3.5 - 4+ Gen Jet
> 75 F16 (Introduced:1978) - 44 Years old - 4th gen Jet
> 
> This adds up to 388. Is there a particular number PAF wants to maintain?
> Our fleet looks very old! 69+56+54 = 179 of these jets are ancient. I know there have been some upgrades. But I think 4/5 platforms can't even fire a sidewinder because they don't have helmet mounted displays.(JF B3 will have it I know) Which basically means in a dogfight they are screwed! Plus such old planes can't be great with BVRs either, at that time there were no BVRs, they have narrow nose cones, small radars, less and old sensors. So what we have is some 200 odd F16s and JFs that are somewhat modern. Minus block 1s and block 15s and you might be looking at a number less than 100. Haven't we lost track completely? Considering India's steady acquisitions. We don't have much to pitch against very decent Mirage 2000s, MiG29s, SU30s and now Rafales.
> 
> We won't have any parity with Indian fleet if it wasn't for our hand full Block 52s. They seem to be having 616 fighter jets, out of which 432 are capable and modern. What are your views on our aging fleet? And parity with India in case of a full blown war where we have to use all our assets? Shouldn't we rather go lean & mean? We should rather have 1 or 2 types of 200-250 4.5 Gen fighters? The older lot would have extremely poor availability, long down times.


All f16s, jf are 4th gen
4.5 will be AESA equippes f16/jf17
By end of this year we will have only j10,jf17,f16 and probably only ROSE II,III mirage 5(~60) = 350 aircarfts

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## MastanKhan

JawadKKhan said:


> Protect Pakistan from India ?? PAF is a force, which attacks india after Pakistan announced that it will respond, PAF attacks them at their highest level of air alert in broad day light... So you have to worry about india's protection not other way around.
> 
> 
> BTW! Yes heard right, The JF-17s are the main fighter jet of PAF which will be countering the maximum of Indian air force.
> 
> Every aircraft will play its role. J-10s / F-16s will play their part.



His question was on a different note---.


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## JawadKKhan

Big_bud said:


> I have a question guys?
> 
> What is the active fleet of fighter jets in PAF?
> 
> On wikipedia it says that we have: (Unreliable source I know)
> 
> 69 Mirage 5s (Introduced: 1968) - 54 Years old - 2nd - 3rd Gen Jet
> 56 Mirage 3s (Introduced: 1961) - 61 Years old - 2nd - 3rd Gen Jet
> 54 J7s (Introduced: 1959) - 63 Years old - 2nd - 3rd Gen Jet
> 134 JF17 (Introduced: 2007) - 15 Years old - 3.5 - 4+ Gen Jet
> 75 F16 (Introduced:1978) - 44 Years old - 4th gen Jet
> 
> This adds up to 388. Is there a particular number PAF wants to maintain?
> Our fleet looks very old! 69+56+54 = 179 of these jets are ancient. I know there have been some upgrades. But I think 4/5 platforms can't even fire a sidewinder because they don't have helmet mounted displays.(JF B3 will have it I know) Which basically means in a dogfight they are screwed! Plus such old planes can't be great with BVRs either, at that time there were no BVRs, they have narrow nose cones, small radars, less and old sensors. So what we have is some 200 odd F16s and JFs that are somewhat modern. Minus block 1s and block 15s and you might be looking at a number less than 100. Haven't we lost track completely? Considering India's steady acquisitions. We don't have much to pitch against very decent Mirage 2000s, MiG29s, SU30s and now Rafales.
> 
> We won't have any parity with Indian fleet if it wasn't for our hand full Block 52s. They seem to be having 616 fighter jets, out of which 432 are capable and modern. What are your views on our aging fleet? And parity with India in case of a full blown war where we have to use all our assets? Shouldn't we rather go lean & mean? We should rather have 1 or 2 types of 200-250 4.5 Gen fighters? The older lot would have extremely poor availability, long down times.



India always had numerical superiority and that will remain same as its many times bigger country with many folds larger economy. PAF always dominated with tactics / strategy. 

Having said that, 388 is a massive fleet of fighter jets. Wars not like 1 fighter aircraft to 1 fighter aircraft. How many aircrafts can be operational at a given time out of 388 and how many can be for indian 616 fighter jets ? That's a main question. In a full blown conventional war, the airbases will be the first target. How much of the airforce will survive. The tactics / situational awareness to survive the first wave is way important then anything else. So that's why potent air-defense units are perhaps more important as they protect entire base. 388 will be more then enough if most of it gets airborne. Capability wise, PAF has rapidly closed the gap with IAF. By mid-2000s india had BVR capability, AEW&C aircrafts, air-refuelers.. PAF had none of such critical capabilities. We added all these capabilities + about 140 JF-17s, 18 F-16s block 52s, some older F-16s and Now J-10s.. That's remarkable acquisitions in last decade what else you need ? PAF right now is a dream airforce for anybody who watched PAF in 2000s. So, we are at the right track. 

The key elements in the air warfare are battle space situational awareness + EW. We proved our superiority in both these domains recently in 2019. We have to keep edge in these domains in future. 

As far as sidewinder is concerned, ALL of PAF jets can do WVR combat with sidewinders or PL-5s. The high-offbore sight missiles with J-10s / block IIIs are a new thing.. That's same case with indian fleet, not all of their fleet has this capability. 

There can be difference in number of platforms, that doesn't matter as much as if there would have been a missing capabilities like it was in the past. The strategy / tactics will determine the outcome of war. Yes technology is the key and we are adding 4 / 4.5 gen aircrafts. Remember once the scenario of modern jets was PAF 38 F-16s (without BVR ) against 200+ ( mirage 2000s, mig-29s, Su-30s) all with BVR missiles and backed by AEW&Cs. So, I completely disagree to "haven't we lost track completely" statement. We are totally on right track. The matter of concern for us is not airforce but navy which was neglected till now. PAF is doing well with right directions towards future, AZM and beyond.

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## SQ8

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Bhai i have one question.
> If IAF use its air assets and S400 at the same time, will not this cause them loose their own air assets as we saw on Feb 27.
> 
> Can S400 and HQ 9 P differentiate between friend and foe in highly contested air space with both friendly and enemy assets.


The SAMs rely on either IFF or operator discretion. Operator discretion is a combination of good training and good information - 27th February was where perhaps either the training or information or both were severely lacking and the fratricidal action occurred.


GOAT said:


> Are you able to see what happens with Pakistani SAMs added to the model?


Sure
Will do so a little later


kursed said:


> Can you run this scenario, please?
> 
> PAF acquires S-400 location via 24/7/365 surveillance and sigint (WL2s). There’s no version of this where S400 batteries would remain unknown to PAF. They’re target number one, since the day they’re accepted into ORBAT. They’d be prime target for PAF’s sigint, space and imagery surveillance.
> 
> JF-17 backed by Falcon-20, with CM-401 and MAR1 + Fatah 1 MRLS (keeps it from operating close to Pak border) via PA used against S400 and its multiple nodes.


Will do


m52k85 said:


> Thanks great post!
> Just one question, why does that J-10 suddenly notch when it has a greater detection range? Since a notch is performed well below the max detection range, I would imagine that value wouldnt factor into ability or decision to notch.


The notching is to maintain a lock at the edge of the gimbal to guide the missle as much as possible before it goes active. My guess is there is a little bit of database “bias” in terms of how the Radar performance is interpreted as both the block-3 and J-10 should start notching as soon as they launch.


akramishaqkhan said:


> Great job - if you dont mind me asking - what did you use to run the simulation? DCS?
> 
> Just a few variables to add that are very hard to simulate:
> 
> 1) Ground clutter interference
> 2) Active Airborne electronic jamming and interference
> 3) PAF and IAF (fighter based) electronic platforms
> 4) Integrated ops and speed to action event through AWACS management
> 5) Tactics to counter missiles
> 6) Ground based jamming
> 7) Ground based missile threats
> 8) Unit failures in man and machines and missiles
> 9) Pilot and group training
> 
> 2-3 additional variables exist that can change the outcome of the above mentioned engagements.


They are all there - this is Command

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## IblinI

Deltadart said:


> A side note to this. At one point in history, the Japanese, and then the Korean products, commercial or military, were considered nothing but junk. Fast forward few decades and see what the world thinks of their products now. Same logic applies to the Chinese now, especially to their military hardware, that is increasingly of very high caliber and quality, and it can only get better with time. BhaRATs can disparage them at their own peril, and it works to our advantage.


This is the essential first step from becoming industrialized, and now we are moving up the tech tree fast, we are all grateful that our previous leadership made such a decision instead of going for the so called service sector like our Indian neighbor.

We are making two fifth gen jets,hypersonic weapons, EMALS carrier, stealth bombers in this decade and sixth gen fighter, space weapons in the next, people can laugh and hit that keyboard hard as we continue to advance.

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## Akatosh

Very interesting excerpt from the reputed Defense News website (read entire excerpt):



> Royal United Services Institute airspace analyst Justin Bronk said the J-10C will significantly boost Pakistan’s air power.
> 
> “The J-10C is a potent modern multirole light fighter, which represents a rough Chinese equivalent to a modern F-16 Block 60/70,″ he said.
> *However, he noted, it’s not quite on a par with the Rafale.*
> 
> “The AESA radar and access to the long-ranged PL-15 air-to-air missile make it a potentially serious long-range threat to non-stealth aircraft, *although it might still struggle as a counter to India’s Rafale at long ranges.* The latter’s superior kinematic performance and access to the Meteor missile [provide] a decent counter to the PL-15,″ Bronk said. “The J-10C is also unlikely to be able to match the Rafale for electronic warfare capabilities.”











Pakistan confirms Chinese ‘Firebird’ fighter acquisition


Pakistan has officially confirmed its long-speculated acquisition of the Chinese J-10C “Firebird” fighter, which will arrive in time to take part in the March 23 Pakistan Day parade.




www.defensenews.com





@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## Akatosh

SQ8 said:


> Max Range of PL-15 is simulated at 92nm while the Meteor is at 75nm.


Sir, Max range of PL-15E has been revealed to be 145km or around 78nm in an official brochure.
Please reduce that in the simulation.


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## Zarvan

Abid123 said:


> View attachment 805206
> 
> 
> No, this comment is not written by a Indian. The guy commenting this is Pakistani. Seriously what is wrong with people like him? Sure everything Chinese is crap🤪


Can you give me the link of this guy ?


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## SQ8

Akatosh said:


> Sir, Max range of PL-15E has been revealed to be 145 km or around 78nm. Please reduce that in the simulation.


Unfortunately I cannot - but if you read through because the simulated JF-17 radar range is 75nm it cannot employ the weapon before that.

Also - we don’t know what version Pakistan is getting yet. After initial export variant with sd-10A Pakistan received the SD10B which matches the PLAAF domestic variant.

That being said -that first scenario gives you exactly what you are looking for

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## Abid123

Zarvan said:


> Can you give me the link of this guy ?


You mean his Facebook profil.


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## Zarvan

RedRock said:


> Looks more like PAF is getting J-10 jets solely for handling PN activities while keeping F-16's & JF-17's for PAF activities. Do not be fooled by US gov & Pak gov current relations. PAF and USAF go a long way back and relations are as good as they get and are not going to change anytime soon; hopefully.
> 
> A senior member(i believe it was Oscar) whom recently explained correctly how the US knows how to balance relations between IND and PAK and make sure that PAK does not get out of their grip. So, I would not bet against new F-16's or even upgrades for existing ones, just yet, since this purchase of J-10's helps in building a case for the US to send some goodies our way to maintain some sort of leverage. But, lets be sure this time to decide the amount of leverage ourselves.
> 
> Hopefully the PAF gets what they have planned for since they have hit the nail on the head so far and therfore never let us down; Mashaa Allah. So lets pray that that this time they too also make us proud and divide assets accordingly; Inshaa Allah.
> 
> Also, i believe they are working towards: data data data data..recieving, analysing, planning and execution(think of it as IOT for an airforce) all within seconds for different fields/areas(water and land) using a combination of Eastern and Western technolgies with a topping of indigenous ingenuity - I am praying that is the case - since the present and future leader of aerial warfare will be the one who has mastered the art of building, maintaining and controlling a data centric environment in the air domain e.g. F-35(a single tiny piece of the puzzle).
> 
> Cheers


F-16 will never be ruled out. Yes USA has its own game but every few years some incident happens where they need us and they return. As for J-10 C they are not coming just for Naval role. And 36 is the starting number. They would go close to 100 for sure.


Abid123 said:


> You mean his Facebook profil.


The post link will be better. Where he replied. I want to answer him.

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## Abid123

Zarvan said:


> The post link will be better. Where he replied. I want to answer him.


Ok I will try to find it.


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## Peaceful Civilian

Mashallah Great news . I was one of guy saying this to get J10s as soon as possible . J10C is very potent fighter. We should try to increase its numbers. i.e 50 j10c. We should use it as pure air superiority fighter instead of multi role. i.e with multiple A2A missiles like PL10 and PL15s.

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## Ghessan

Akatosh said:


> Very interesting excerpt from the reputed Defense News website (read entire excerpt):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan confirms Chinese ‘Firebird’ fighter acquisition
> 
> 
> Pakistan has officially confirmed its long-speculated acquisition of the Chinese J-10C “Firebird” fighter, which will arrive in time to take part in the March 23 Pakistan Day parade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defensenews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)



for some years we've been concentrating on and practicing EW tactics by adding assets to the inventory.

we have been watching J-10 since years, it was offered, we saw the capability and point out things. then came the B version and later C. 

we also have pushed China to the limits for JF-17 and we have been doing this earlier than that. only suddenly they become a genie out of the bottle and doing wonders, don't under estimate the capabilities. 

Rafale was there when we were evaluating J-10, i don't think we would have compromised on its EW capabilities even in JF-17 III it is a new capability. 

PAF would love to meet IAF in a scenario where they, too come up with capability, it would be worth watching, the duel.


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## Big_bud

GriffinsRule said:


> Why would you minus Block 15s (MLU to same as standard as Block 52) and JF-17 Block 1 (Updated to the same standard as Block 2)?
> So in essence 200 vs 450? Seems like very good odds to me and much better then historic precedents and only improving as more JF-17s slowly enter service.



Block 2s don't have HMDs. They dont have an Aesa. Their fuel tanks are small and hardpoints limited. They have an average engine thrust. They dont have canards. Such an aircraft needs a powerful engine, like F16, if you are going to pitch it against SU30s, Mirages and Migs. They can only fire SD10s. They are not true 4th gens hence they shouldn't be included in the list.

Block 3s once they arrive will be true 4+ Gen. Since PL15s will make a lot of difference in their lethality. Otherwise JFs can't engage in a dogfight comfortably with any of the above.

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## RealNapster

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Mashallah Great news . I was one of guy saying this to get J10s as soon as possible . J10C is very potent fighter. We should try to increase its numbers. i.e 50 j10c. We should use it as pure air superiority fighter instead of multi role. i.e with multiple A2A missiles like PL10 and PL15s.



PAF won't buy only 50 of a fighter jet. History tells us this. If PAF have selected J-10C , expect atleast 100 in the long run. We will keep increasing J-10C fleet in phases.

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## That Guy

Until I see it, I won't believe PAF is buying the J-10C.

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## Big_bud

JawadKKhan said:


> India always had numerical superiority and that will remain same as its many times bigger country with many folds larger economy. PAF always dominated with tactics / strategy.
> 
> Having said that, 388 is a massive fleet of fighter jets. Wars not like 1 fighter aircraft to 1 fighter aircraft. How many aircrafts can be operational at a given time out of 388 and how many can be for indian 616 fighter jets ? That's a main question. In a full blown conventional war, the airbases will be the first target. How much of the airforce will survive. The tactics / situational awareness to survive the first wave is way important then anything else. So that's why potent air-defense units are perhaps more important as they protect entire base. 388 will be more then enough if most of it gets airborne. Capability wise, PAF has rapidly closed the gap with IAF. By mid-2000s india had BVR capability, AEW&C aircrafts, air-refuelers.. PAF had none of such critical capabilities. We added all these capabilities + about 140 JF-17s, 18 F-16s block 52s, some older F-16s and Now J-10s.. That's remarkable acquisitions in last decade what else you need ? PAF right now is a dream airforce for anybody who watched PAF in 2000s. So, we are at the right track.
> 
> The key elements in the air warfare are battle space situational awareness + EW. We proved our superiority in both these domains recently in 2019. We have to keep edge in these domains in future.
> 
> As far as sidewinder is concerned, ALL of PAF jets can do WVR combat with sidewinders or PL-5s. The high-offbore sight missiles with J-10s / block IIIs are a new thing.. That's same case with indian fleet, not all of their fleet has this capability.
> 
> There can be difference in number of platforms, that doesn't matter as much as if there would have been a missing capabilities like it was in the past. The strategy / tactics will determine the outcome of war. Yes technology is the key and we are adding 4 / 4.5 gen aircrafts. Remember once the scenario of modern jets was PAF 38 F-16s (without BVR ) against 200+ ( mirage 2000s, mig-29s, Su-30s) all with BVR missiles and backed by AEW&Cs. So, I completely disagree to "haven't we lost track completely" statement. We are totally on right track. The matter of concern for us is not airforce but navy which was neglected till now. PAF is doing well with right directions towards future, AZM and beyond.



Thanks for ur answer. Detailed and makes sense! I hope we can quickly add capability and capable platforms! Good to know that we have greatly improved.

However we are not as "cutting edge" "advanced" "modern" "state of the art" "qualitative" airforce than many of the members here believe! The typical jingoism and denial still exists, not only within our armed forces (serving/ex) but the masses as well.

We are doing a comendable job as per our budget. But we need to invest more brains and efforts to ensure gaps are bridged. I hope our economy improves and recovers quickly which is the key issue right now.

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## The Eagle

What if sometime in near future, Shaikh Rasheed says that his statement was misinterpreted and they are coming for fly-past?

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## untitled

The Eagle said:


> What if sometime in near future, Shaikh Rasheed says that his statement was misinterpreted and they are coming for fly-past?


How is a JS-10 fly-past going to counter the Rafale threat?

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## The Eagle

The Eagle said:


> What if sometime in near future, Shaikh Rasheed says that his statement was misinterpreted and they are coming for fly-past?



Or he says something like 
بھائی میں مذاق کر رہا تھا،،،،، میرے منہ سے نکل گیا تھا

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## Trailer23

Zarvan said:


> And 36 is the starting number. They would go close to *100* for sure.


Is it you guessing, your 6th sense, a hunch that has brought you to that particular number?

With all due respect, but I think....correction, i'm certain that you're reaching.


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## The Eagle

untitled said:


> How is a JS-10 fly-past going to counter the Rafale threat?



You mean an interpretation as such... This Rumorist is so wrong to say so.

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## Maarkhoor

Designation would be FC-10 CP or EP........


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## untitled

The Eagle said:


> You mean an interpretation as such... This Rumorist is so wrong to say so.
> 
> View attachment 805740


While we are at it can we get an F-35 fly-past as well?

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## Zarvan

Trailer23 said:


> Is it you guessing, your 6th sense, a hunch that has brought you to that particular number?
> 
> With all due respect, but I think....correction, i'm certain that you're reaching.


No information but a wild guess based on solid analysis. There is no way hell we would remain limited to 36. Also Indian Navy also looking for new beast. If they go for Rafale M then we would also go for more J-10. Also Indian Air Force will also go for at least 36 more Rafale if not more.

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## RealNapster

Big_bud said:


> Block 2s don't have HMDs. They dont have an Aesa. Their fuel tanks are small and hardpoints limited. They have an average engine thrust. They dont have canards. Such an aircraft needs a powerful engine, like F16, if you are going to pitch it against SU30s, Mirages and Migs. They can only fire SD10s. They are not true 4th gens hence they shouldn't be included in the list.
> 
> Block 3s once they arrive will be true 4+ Gen. Since PL15s will make a lot of difference in their lethality. Otherwise JFs can't engage in a dogfight comfortably with any of the above.



JF-17 Block 2 secure our western theatre without any issue. And it is going to rule the skies on our western side for atleast next 10 years. Even after that, any possible resistance will only come from Iran side which may afford to acquire good platform by then. block 3, J-10C and F-16 can all go to our eastern side. That's almost 250+ planned fleet. In case of war Block 2 can be relocated any time to eastern side.

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## siegecrossbow

MH.Yang said:


> If Russia does not agree, China cannot sell J11 and J16, but J15 can be sold, and J15 is a carrier plane.
> J20 will probably never be sold, just like F22.
> J10C and J31 should be available for sale. But J31 is a naval project, and the army variant of J31 may need to wait a long time(2030-2035).
> But the J10C is a pure air superiority fighter, and its multirole is poor, it is not suitable for countries with low budgets. The JF17 engine is controlled by Russia. So China usually sells K8 fighters.
> The sales volume of K8 is very good, and 400+ K8 have been exported.
> 
> View attachment 805599



The success to K-8's export was contingent upon US engine in many cases. Surprised that it was even allowed.



The Eagle said:


> What if sometime in near future, Shaikh Rasheed says that his statement was misinterpreted and they are coming for fly-past?



I’d be happy because China has never sent double digit number of fighter abroad for parade purposes.

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## The Eagle

siegecrossbow said:


> I’d be happy because China has never sent double digit number of fighter abroad for parade purposes.



I was just teasing members here. I agree that China wouldn't send double digit number of ACs for merely a fly past. This is going be a procurement drive, if we see such number of planes here.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

PanzerKiel said:


> ... Pulwama incident happened on 14 Feb, IAF went in on 26.....i mean IAF had fully 11 days to prepare the response, and prepare for PAF response as well....one wonders *what they were doing for all these 11 days*. ...


The day after 27 February Indian media asked the same question over and over again from their retired military personnel, why wasn't the Indian Air Force prepared for a Pakistani retaliation.

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## The Eagle

@PanzerKiel why  reactions?
 Though, the level of secrecy maintained either by CAC or PAF in regards to J-10CP deal is appreciable. I mean, none of the camera lenses in China could get this neither in Pakistan.

In past and most of the times; things will start to surface on internet to the least but this case is pure genuine work, if done as such.

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## Enigma SIG

The Eagle said:


> @PanzerKiel why  reactions?
> * Though, the level of secrecy maintained either by CAC or PAF in regards to J-10CP deal is appreciable. I mean, none of the camera lenses in China could get this neither in Pakistan.*
> 
> In past and most of the times; things will start to surface on internet to the least but this case is pure genuine work, if done as such.


I'll play the devil's advocate here that Shaikh Rasheed just spat out bullshit and there's nothing going on

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## HAIDER

The Eagle said:


> What if sometime in near future, Shaikh Rasheed says that his statement was misinterpreted and they are coming for fly-past?


never know....shiekh sahib " bhaand marna (fluke)" ma champion haan...

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## Ali_Baba

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> why wasn't the Indian Air Force prepared for a Pakistani retaliation.



Because they were not expecting Pakistan to retaliate, that is why. They thought they could dish it out and not get anything back in return - had it been a PPP or PML goverment in charge then they would have been right.

Imran Khan saw the risk in not responding and ordered a risky counterstrike. That was a damn risky gamble by him and one that paid off with the shooting down of the Su30MKI and the Mig21. That response killed India's strategy of hoping to turn Pakistan into another "Lebanon or Syria with strikes that are not questioned by anyone anymore" and it taught Pakistan a lesson to. Be ready as things are going to get hot, and you must be able to respond and that has to be clearly understood by India and everyone else. Deterrence was preserved through that action.

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## jaybird

The Eagle said:


> @PanzerKiel why  reactions?
> Though, the level of secrecy maintained either by CAC or PAF in regards to J-10CP deal is appreciable. I mean, none of the camera lenses in China could get this neither in Pakistan.
> 
> In past and most of the times; things will start to surface on internet to the least but this case is pure genuine work, if done as such.



Secrecy regarding military matters in China is a lot more stern the last 2-3 years compared to before, even most major Chinese military forums are closed. Not many people dare to post any "leaked" photos of new military equipment anymore. People can get in trouble for posting such a information now a days. Before you could still get in trouble but not nearly as serious.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

The Eagle said:


> @PanzerKiel why  reactions?
> Though, the level of secrecy maintained either by CAC or PAF in regards to J-10CP deal is appreciable. I mean, none of the camera lenses in China could get this neither in Pakistan.
> 
> In past and most of the times; things will start to surface on internet to the least but this case is pure genuine work, if done as such.


I still dont believe in this acquisition until someone other than Shaikh Rasheed confirms it. I see it this way so far.

Why would Pakistan Air Force acquire an aircraft which it has rejected for 2 decades under 3 different Government administrations giving various excuses each time it was offered.

Also, how does having 2 medium-weight combat platforms and 4 light-weight combat platforms at the same time makes any sense for an air force that operates around 400 combat aircraft?

I don't know if I want to be proven wrong or if I'll be happy with a disappointment of this acquisition not materialising.


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## SIPRA

HAIDER said:


> never know....shiekh sahib " bhaand marna " ma champion haan...



Credibility of "Sheeda Tully" = ZERO + ZERO x (ZERO + ZERO) - ZERO


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## abdulbarijan

Big_bud said:


> Block 2s don't have HMDs. They dont have an Aesa. *Their fuel tanks are small and hardpoints limited. They have an average engine thrust. They dont have canards. Such an aircraft needs a powerful engine, like F16, if you are going to pitch it against SU30s, Mirages and Migs. *They can only fire SD10s. They are not true 4th gens hence they shouldn't be included in the list.





Big_bud said:


> Block 3s once they arrive will be true 4+ Gen. Since PL15s will make a lot of difference in their lethality. Otherwise *JFs can't engage in a dogfight comfortably with any of the above.*



Kindly go through the forum especially the JF-17 information pool thread before making sweeping statements like the ones highlighted above.

Just an example, the F-16 block 60 of the UAEF, a legitimate 4.5 generation aircraft doesn't have canards, therefore (going by the logic cited), even the block 60 isn't worth the 4th generation stamp? 

*Just to be clear on this, I believe many of the senior members as well as professionals on this forum would be very comfortable saying this today, that JFT when it was inducted in the PAF (block 1) was better than the F-16 block 15 in many aspects.*

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## Polestar 2

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> I still dont believe in this acquisition until someone other than Shaikh Rasheed confirms it. I see it this way so far.
> 
> Why would Pakistan Air Force acquire an aircraft which it has rejected for 2 decades under 3 different Government administrations giving various excuses each it was offered.
> 
> Also, how does having 2 medium-weight combat platforms and 4 light-weight combat platforms at the same time makes any sense for an air force that operates around 400 combat aircraft?
> 
> I don't know if I want to be proven wrong or if I'll be happy with a disappointment of this acquisition not materialising.


J-10C is to replace F-16 which supply and spare cut off in future. Some say Turkey can continue help to maintain or service it which there is a limit especially engine which no way Turkey can replicate or keep overhaul to give it another life.

Basically in future, there will be only one medium weight fighter which makes the correct decision to buy J-10C. There are effective and yet still cheaper to maintenance compare to heavy weight fighter.


----------



## Deltadart

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> The day after 27 February Indian media asked the same question over and over again from their retired military personnel, why wasn't the Indian Air Force prepared for a Pakistani retaliation.


They had the answer all along, mostly fabricated by the same jingoistic indian media and the like minded scoundrels. According to that indian logic, arrogance, and contemptuous overconfidence: Pakistan was incapable of retaliating or didn't have the guts to do it, because of the vedic indian might.

Their thinking changed dramatically after the 2019 encounter, but with the arrival of mahan 20th generation Rafale, it has reverted back to the glory days of invincibility that was once provided by the MKIs.

It's only a matter of time before we start hearing the same old mantra of new Indian surgical strikes with rafales to teach us a lesson. Until the day their leadership is firmly convinced that we will hit them everytime they violate our airspace to drop bombs, they will continue with this reckless behavior. The more things change, the more they remain the same.

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## iLION12345_1

abdulbarijan said:


> Kindly go through the forum especially the JF-17 information pool thread before making sweeping statements like the ones highlighted above.
> 
> Just an example, the F-16 block 60 of the UAEF, a legitimate 4.5 generation aircraft doesn't have canards, therefore (going by the logic cited), even the block 60 isn't worth the 4th generation stamp?
> 
> *Just to be clear on this, I believe many of the senior members as well as professionals on this forum would be very comfortable saying this today, that JFT when it was inducted in the PAF (block 1) was better than the F-16 block 15 in many aspects.*


I’ll make it simple; the guy you’re responding to has his own definition of aircraft generations that make no sense. To him Canards and G limits define generations and not actual technology and capability, it’s useless to argue with him.

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## devil302

The Eagle said:


> What if sometime in near future, Shaikh Rasheed says that his statement was misinterpreted and they are coming for fly-past?


This is really whats gonna happen he said about flypast not about buying them


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## The Terminator

untitled said:


> While we are at it can we get an F-35 fly-past as well?


And J20 and Su35 flypast too

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## SIPRA

The Terminator said:


> And J20 and Su35 flypast too



Why not to have a complete "buffet" of fly past? 


devil302 said:


> This is really whats gonna happen he said about flypast not about buying them



Well, he also mentioned "countering the Rafale". Obviously, you can't encounter, by merely fly past.


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## Salza

devil302 said:


> This is really whats gonna happen he said about flypast not about buying them


May be you people don't understand Urdu. He also clearly said it paf is getting them in response to Indian Rafale.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

jaybird said:


> Well, he also mentioned "countering the Rafale". Obviously, you can't encounter, by merely fly past.


It's totally imaginable.


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## Danish Moazzam

Trailer23 said:


> Is it you guessing, your 6th sense, a hunch that has brought you to that particular number?
> 
> With all due respect, but I think....correction, i'm certain that you're reaching.


If PAF does actually go for J10, it will be 100 or more, the number comes from the fact that after rejecting J-10 for 2 decades if finally PAF is accepting it that means that they are happy with it as a replacement for Mirage and a full compliment to F-16, down the road. So looking at that, the future PAF will operate JF-17, J-10 and Azm that will be a formidable conbination


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Akatosh said:


> Very interesting excerpt from the reputed Defense News website (read entire excerpt):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan confirms Chinese ‘Firebird’ fighter acquisition
> 
> 
> Pakistan has officially confirmed its long-speculated acquisition of the Chinese J-10C “Firebird” fighter, which will arrive in time to take part in the March 23 Pakistan Day parade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defensenews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


It's an analysis by someone. Not everyone will come to the same conclusions when dealing with opaque information.

The way I look at the J-10CE is by China's weighing general industrial qualities against that of Europe.

I think China has a solid grounding in electronics, materials sciences, and even gas turbines. In some areas, like software, China's at the cutting edge. In others -- like gas turbines and materials -- it's among the world leaders, though not *the* leader. That said, the PLAAF banks on the J-10CE to handle sophisticated adversaries, e.g., F-16Vs, Su-30s, F-15s, and Rafales. Thus, the aircraft must have some type of solution for each of those threats.

With those facts in mind, the J-10CE is likely a credible threat against anything. Is it as good as the Rafale? No. However, not being as good doesn't necessarily mean you're not good enough to take it down. The MiG-21bis was not as good as the F-16, but the PAF still considered it a credible threat to the F-16. Moreover, sometimes the qualities of 'being better' aren't necessarily relevant to the scenario we're thinking about. So, the Rafale is a phenomenally better strike and maritime fighter.

That said, given China's strong industrial and very strong software bases, the J-10CE carries a lot of credibility in its own right. IMO, with Chinese equipment (especially mainline PLA stuff), there's no "China lens" anymore. If we're still valuing Russian equipment at a point, I'd automatically add a "+1" or even "+2" to mainline PLA stuff, which brings it to the same conversation as US and EU gear.

tbh my issue with Chinese gear hasn't been the quality, pace of improvement, performance, cost, etc. Rather, my issue is that it gives Pakistani military planners an easy (albeit at times necessary) exit from indigenous development. In of itself, this shouldn't be an issue, but defence is our go-to spending priority as a nation, so I'd prefer seeing that channel through *our* R&D, *our* capacity building, and *our* product growth than someone else's. I'd rather deal with people dismissing our stuff because "it's Pakistani" if it means we enter the same growth trajectory as China, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan.

@SQ8 @kursed @Chak Bamu

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## Basel

The Terminator said:


> Flying fighters low and along with limited effective range of AWACS due to it being flying far away deep into the safe zone of Pakistani airspace creates a significant issue in situational awareness for the fighters conducting Ops at or beyond the enemy borders. Dedicated EW platforms also in constant threat from the S400s. That alone gives the IAF a tactical advantage against PAF fighters without firing a missile at them.
> 
> Could that be an effective A2/AD setup against PAF? And what would PAF do to turn conditions into it's favor? Utilize drones, fighters or surface to surface munitions (missiles, rockets) to effectively suppress or eliminate the long range SAM threat from India.



Pakistan should work with China to develop system that can engage not just airplane or drones but flying munitions like missiles, shells and rockets, like Israeli Iron Dome or Arrow-3.

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## Zarvan

Ali_Baba said:


> Because they were not expecting Pakistan to retaliate, that is why. They thought they could dish it out and not get anything back in return - had it been a PPP or PML goverment in charge then they would have been right.
> 
> Imran Khan saw the risk in not responding and ordered a risky counterstrike. That was a damn risky gamble by him and one that paid off with the shooting down of the Su30MKI and the Mig21. That response killed India's strategy of hoping to turn Pakistan into another "Lebanon or Syria with strikes that are not questioned by anyone anymore" and it taught Pakistan a lesson to. Be ready as things are going to get hot, and you must be able to respond and that has to be clearly understood by India and everyone else. Deterrence was preserved through that action.


Pakistan would have responded whether it was PML N or PPP. Only thing different would have been is that Pakistani Forces would have striked on their own and then told PML N or PPP dumbos to claim victory and take responsibility. Just like Raheel Shareef started the operation in North Wazristan and Nawaz came to know about it through ISPR tweet.

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## Rafi

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's an analysis by someone. Not everyone will come to the same conclusions when dealing with opaque information.
> 
> The way I look at the J-10CE is by China's weighing general industrial qualities against that of Europe.
> 
> I think China has a solid grounding in electronics, materials sciences, and even gas turbines. In some areas, like software, China's at the cutting edge. In others -- like gas turbines and materials -- it's among the world leaders, though not *the* leader. That said, the PLAAF banks on the J-10CE to handle sophisticated adversaries, e.g., F-16Vs, Su-30s, F-15s, and Rafales. Thus, the aircraft must have some type of solution for each of those threats.
> 
> With those facts in mind, the J-10CE is likely a credible threat against anything. Is it as good as the Rafale? No. However, not being as good doesn't necessarily mean you're not good enough to take it down. The MiG-21bis was not as good as the F-16, but the PAF still considered it a credible threat to the F-16. Moreover, sometimes the qualities of 'being better' aren't necessarily relevant to the scenario we're thinking about. So, the Rafale is a phenomenally better strike and maritime fighter.
> 
> That said, given China's strong industrial and very strong software bases, the J-10CE carries a lot of credibility in its own right. IMO, with Chinese equipment (especially mainline PLA stuff), there's no "China lens" anymore. If we're still valuing Russian equipment at a point, I'd automatically add a "+1" or even "+2" to mainline PLA stuff, which brings it to the same conversation as US and EU gear.
> 
> tbh my issue with Chinese gear hasn't been the quality, pace of improvement, performance, cost, etc. Rather, my issue is that it gives Pakistani military planners an easy (albeit at times necessary) exit from indigenous development. In of itself, this shouldn't be an issue, but defence is our go-to spending priority as a nation, so I'd prefer seeing that channel through *our* R&D, *our* capacity building, and *our* product growth than someone else's. I'd rather deal with people dismissing our stuff because "it's Pakistani" if it means we enter the same growth trajectory as China, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan.
> 
> @SQ8 @kursed @Chak Bamu



PAF believe J10C is on par, and on some areas surpass Raphael, classified reasons nuff said 😉

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## Trailer23

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's an analysis by someone. Not everyone will come to the same conclusions when dealing with opaque information.
> 
> The way I look at the J-10CE is by China's weighing general industrial qualities against that of Europe.
> 
> I think China has a solid grounding in electronics, materials sciences, and even gas turbines. In some areas, like software, China's at the cutting edge. In others -- like gas turbines and materials -- it's among the world leaders, though not *the* leader. That said, the PLAAF banks on the J-10CE to handle sophisticated adversaries, e.g., F-16Vs, Su-30s, F-15s, and Rafales. Thus, the aircraft must have some type of solution for each of those threats.
> 
> With those facts in mind, the J-10CE is likely a credible threat against anything. Is it as good as the Rafale? No. However, not being as good doesn't necessarily mean you're not good enough to take it down. The MiG-21bis was not as good as the F-16, but the PAF still considered it a credible threat to the F-16. Moreover, sometimes the qualities of 'being better' aren't necessarily relevant to the scenario we're thinking about. So, the Rafale is a phenomenally better strike and maritime fighter.
> 
> That said, given China's strong industrial and very strong software bases, the J-10CE carries a lot of credibility in its own right. IMO, with Chinese equipment (especially mainline PLA stuff), there's no "China lens" anymore. If we're still valuing Russian equipment at a point, I'd automatically add a "+1" or even "+2" to mainline PLA stuff, which brings it to the same conversation as US and EU gear.
> 
> tbh my issue with Chinese gear hasn't been the quality, pace of improvement, performance, cost, etc. Rather, my issue is that it gives Pakistani military planners an easy (albeit at times necessary) exit from indigenous development. In of itself, this shouldn't be an issue, but defence is our go-to spending priority as a nation, so I'd prefer seeing that channel through *our* R&D, *our* capacity building, and *our* product growth than someone else's. I'd rather deal with people dismissing our stuff because "it's Pakistani" if it means we enter the same growth trajectory as China, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan.

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## PakAlp

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan would have responded whether it was PML N or PPP. Only thing different would have been is that Pakistani Forces would have striked on their own and then told PML N or PPP dumbos to claim victory and take responsibility. Just like Raheel Shareef started the operation in North Wazristan and Nawaz came to know about it through ISPR tweet.



I definitely remember that, PML N, PTI, JI, JUI were making big noise against the operation and PPP, MQM, ANP, PAT and other smaller parties were supporting our army, PML N lead political parties had meetings to gather unity against the operation, then suddenly the army started to attack and PML N government quickly started to take credit for it, there are videos available where PML N leaders were saying we are pro Taliban etc so don't target us. The PPP, ANP were slaughtered with attacks and they could not campaign for elections.

If you go back to 2003 till Musharaff end time, their were parties who opposed Pakistani army entrance to FATA area, during the difficult times they betrayed the army and now the same parties are in bed with the establishment, they all thought Pakistan will collapse and they will have a say in the next kingdom of Pakistan.

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## maverick1977

akramishaqkhan said:


> I dont think people realize that PK Armed forces began war gaming S400 a while back.
> First don't count on India maintaining S400 units within 100-150KM of the border. They are likely to use these units for air protection against critical military and civilian sites further inland. Their peace time placement is no guarantee of their war time placement.
> 
> Second PK Armed forces goal of pushing S400 away from the border is a foregone conclusion. Reason for that is the minute the S400 tracks it paints itself and if within range will expose itself to 4 different type of PK actions. Keep in mind we will go after the Radar and control system not the missile batteries. I wont get into the specifics of what those 4 options are, but PK has atleast 4 different options to engage the S400. I expect S400 to be more actively engaged against PK BMs for more India internal ranged targets than against PAF fighters. During war the clutter in the air along the border will make them very tricky to use effectively.




Pakistan will get good experience planning for S400 during Turk Pakistan air force exercies. I wont worry too much once pakistan learns what the system is and how to counter it.

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## Ali_Baba

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's an analysis by someone. Not everyone will come to the same conclusions when dealing with opaque information.
> 
> The way I look at the J-10CE is by China's weighing general industrial qualities against that of Europe.
> 
> I think China has a solid grounding in electronics, materials sciences, and even gas turbines. In some areas, like software, China's at the cutting edge. In others -- like gas turbines and materials -- it's among the world leaders, though not *the* leader. That said, the PLAAF banks on the J-10CE to handle sophisticated adversaries, e.g., F-16Vs, Su-30s, F-15s, and Rafales. Thus, the aircraft must have some type of solution for each of those threats.
> 
> With those facts in mind, the J-10CE is likely a credible threat against anything. Is it as good as the Rafale? No. However, not being as good doesn't necessarily mean you're not good enough to take it down. The MiG-21bis was not as good as the F-16, but the PAF still considered it a credible threat to the F-16. Moreover, sometimes the qualities of 'being better' aren't necessarily relevant to the scenario we're thinking about. So, the Rafale is a phenomenally better strike and maritime fighter.
> 
> That said, given China's strong industrial and very strong software bases, the J-10CE carries a lot of credibility in its own right. IMO, with Chinese equipment (especially mainline PLA stuff), there's no "China lens" anymore. If we're still valuing Russian equipment at a point, I'd automatically add a "+1" or even "+2" to mainline PLA stuff, which brings it to the same conversation as US and EU gear.
> 
> tbh my issue with Chinese gear hasn't been the quality, pace of improvement, performance, cost, etc. Rather, my issue is that it gives Pakistani military planners an easy (albeit at times necessary) exit from indigenous development. In of itself, this shouldn't be an issue, but defence is our go-to spending priority as a nation, so I'd prefer seeing that channel through *our* R&D, *our* capacity building, and *our* product growth than someone else's. I'd rather deal with people dismissing our stuff because "it's Pakistani" if it means we enter the same growth trajectory as China, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan.
> 
> @SQ8 @kursed @Chak Bamu



I think when we say that the Rafale is a better plane - that is an aggregate statement and we have to be more clear on where and why. If we consider the individual roles that these multirole platforms are capable off, then we can get an assesment of which is better where.

In air-to-air - both are almost equal, or the J10C has a slight edge due to a bigger radar, and the longer range of the PL15 missile that gives it a first shot advantage, esp in a dense network centric AD environment where the capabilities of the Spectra EW kit will not be as effective. As a strike platform then, i would agree that the Rafale is better with larger payload advantages and also with the capabilities of the SCALP + Apache cruise missiles + Hammer SOW. The additional hardpoints and the EW capabilities of Spectra to protect the plane itself in strike mode come into their own. That is where the Rafale comes into its own and where i think it has to be feared. In Naval - the J10 has a better range of anti-ship missiles available to it compared to the Rafale which only has the MBDA Exocets integrated as of now.

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## Peaceful Civilian

Danish Moazzam said:


> If PAF does actually go for J10, it will be 100 or more, the number comes from the fact that after rejecting J-10 for 2 decades if finally PAF is accepting it that means that they are happy with it as a replacement for Mirage and a full compliment to F-16, down the road. So looking at that, the future PAF will operate JF-17, J-10 and Azm that will be a formidable conbination


France and U.S.A will surely hesitate to support our mirages and f16s. France will do it on india pressure while U.S.A after Afghanistan episode, Uncle Sam will not negotiate for f16s. J10s is best option for us incase our mirages and F16 becomes obsolete.

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## syed_yusuf

Ali_Baba said:


> I think when we say that the Rafale is a better plane - that is an aggregate statement and we have to be more clear on where and why. If we consider the individual roles that these multirole platforms are capable off, then we can get an assesment of which is better where.
> 
> In air-to-air - both are almost equal, or the J10C has a slight edge due to a bigger radar, and the longer range of the PL15 missile that gives it a first shot advantage, esp in a dense network centric AD environment where the capabilities of the Spectra EW kit will not be as effective. As a strike platform then, i would agree that the Rafale is better with larger payload advantages and also with the capabilities of the SCALP + Apache cruise missiles + Hammer SOW. The additional hardpoints and the EW capabilities of Spectra to protect the plane itself in strike mode come into their own. That is where the Rafale comes into its own and where i think it has to be feared. In Naval - the J10 has a better range of anti-ship missiles available to it compared to the Rafale which only has the MBDA Exocets integrated as of now.


What is stopping Pakistan from integrating babur ALCM and raad2 to j20cp

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## SQ8

syed_yusuf said:


> What is stopping Pakistan from integrating babur ALCM and raad2 to j20cp


Requirements - source code requests from OEM.
Its not really a requirement for now - the targets that need to be engaged at the maximum range of the Raad 2(babur air launched will likely not be pursued) are easily achieved by both the Mirage and the JF-17.

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## denel

Bilal. said:


> South Africans do provide decoupled solutions like that where WI-FI connection is used to directly control the SOW launch and most likely that’s the case with H-SOWs plus the data link is also a separate pod. So maybe you are on point.


Yes this is correct; you do have bypass option; this was introduced later on when cheetah platform was being developed so as to be plug and play vs trying to rework the platform.


xuxu1457 said:


> many people said that J10 COPY OF F16, IFV ETC
> they should learn more about chengdu J9 FIGHTER
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chengdu J-9 - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 804800


Please correct your statement; J9 was stopped. Lavi blueprint is the one on which J10 is based off. Lavi was a direct competitor to F-16 which was then terminated because of american pressure from LM and Isreali govt corruption.

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## Big_bud

abdulbarijan said:


> Kindly go through the forum especially the JF-17 information pool thread before making sweeping statements like the ones highlighted above.
> 
> Just an example, the F-16 block 60 of the UAEF, a legitimate 4.5 generation aircraft doesn't have canards, therefore (going by the logic cited), even the block 60 isn't worth the 4th generation stamp?
> 
> *Just to be clear on this, I believe many of the senior members as well as professionals on this forum would be very comfortable saying this today, that JFT when it was inducted in the PAF (block 1) was better than the F-16 block 15 in many aspects.*



You didn't get what I wrote. Comment was in reference to the airframe design + the engine its paired with. As I said, JF needs a strong engine with this design to have good turn rate and nose pointing authority. It can not pull 9G like others can. Anyways, you can believe in whatever you like.


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## denel

Big_bud said:


> Block 2s don't have HMDs. They dont have an Aesa. Their fuel tanks are small and hardpoints limited. They have an average engine thrust. They dont have canards. Such an aircraft needs a powerful engine, like F16, if you are going to pitch it against SU30s, Mirages and Migs. They can only fire SD10s. They are not true 4th gens hence they shouldn't be included in the list.
> 
> Block 3s once they arrive will be true 4+ Gen. Since PL15s will make a lot of difference in their lethality. Otherwise JFs can't engage in a dogfight comfortably with any of the above.


If ever there is a must have upgrade of JF17s B1/2 - it is incorporation of HMDS with high off bore systems; that alone is a game changer for WVR.

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## The Eagle

jaybird said:


> Secrecy regarding military matters in China is a lot more stern the last 2-3 years compared to before, even most major Chinese military forums are closed. Not many people dare to post any "leaked" photos of new military equipment anymore. People can get in trouble for posting such a information now a days. Before you could still get in trouble but not nearly as serious.



In Pakistan, people starts to insult and question tye dignity.of Force if news is not shared. Difference it is.

Some leaks very sensitive news and still walks away with it. Military Brats, Brigadier's Nephew, General's Relative, Officials brother in law, cousin and even someone with not close relation.

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## denel

siegecrossbow said:


> I don’t understand the obsession with TVC.


It does have some benefits; however those are nullified very significantly once HMDS/High offbore aams are deployed.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## The Eagle

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Why would Pakistan Air Force acquire an aircraft which it has rejected for 2 decades under 3 different Government administrations giving various excuses each it was offered.



If this is coming, this is not the aircraft which was allegedly rejected before. You must be talking about J-10A and J-10B bit this one isn't.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Danish Moazzam said:


> If PAF does actually go for J10, it will be 100 or more, ...


The Saudis and the Americans paid for the Pakistani F-16s. When Pakistan paid for them, PAF received soya beans instead.

Who's going to pay for J-10s?


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## The Eagle

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Also, how does having 2 medium-weight combat platforms and 4 light-weight combat platforms at the same time makes any sense for an air force that operates around 400 combat aircraft?



Do you think all those platforms are staying forever? I think you gradually starts with retiring.one after another. Secondly, you add numbers when the existing inventor is adding up due to usual deception by source. Will you just sit and wait? I don't think so but surely, will question PAF sitting idle and doing nothing.


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## Big_bud

denel said:


> It does have some benefits; however those are nullified very significantly once HMDS/High offbore aams are deployed.



Nope, I dont think so. In close combat more manurable aircraft would always win. Unless the underdog get a purely lucky shot or you are assuming that the enemy aircraft has TVC but can't fire a high off bore missile. You have to Jam the weapon engagement zone of the enemy aircraft. If you go for a 1 circle or 2 circle dog fight, a TVC equipped plane would always be pointing nose at you with ease. A TVC equipped plane would even give a Rafale or RFT a run for its money in WVR. The Indian SU30 is great for WVR. However its said that it has issues with radar and how certain upgrades have been done on it.


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## The Eagle

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> I don't know if I want to be proven wrong or if I'll be happy with a disappointment of this acquisition not materialising.



Well, honestly I will only question/argue/debate acquisition of a platform if I knew it inside out, being aware of it's pros and cons, experienced the flying or at-least I have credible data and experienced it's advantages or disadvantages. Other than that, it's just like US/Western Vs Unknown Chinese platform. It's just like. The mindset and inability to understand Chinese advancement in many fields.

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## Raider 21

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> The Saudis and the Americans paid for the Pakistani F-16s. When Pakistan paid for then, PAF received soya beans instead.
> 
> Who's going to pay for J-10s?


The soya beans were via FMS as well. Not to mention the spare parts that kept coming covertly in the 90s.

As for the J-10s, it could be another loan to the Chinese

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## The Eagle

devil302 said:


> This is really whats gonna happen he said about flypast not about buying them



Turn you don't just counter Rafale by a mere flypast. I agree that he wasn't detailed about even and participants but he was very clear about the remarks on countering Rafale. However, what I am saying that what if he says that he was just mistaken with all details. 😂


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## Zapper

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478349496409022466


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## GiantPanda

Falcon26 said:


> Thanks for the simulation and the very detailed analysis. This was a treat to read!
> 
> This post got me thinking of the rumored engagements between the PLAAF J-10C and Thai Saab Gripens. Does anyone know how well the J-10c performed? It should give an indication of the capability of the J-10C. @Deino @Bilal Khan (Quwa)



The J-10Cs destroyed the Gripens.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

The Eagle said:


> ... Some leaks very sensitive news and still walks away with it. Military Brats, Brigadier's Nephew, General's Relative, Officials brother in law, cousin and even someone with not close relation.


Where's the discipline? Why do serving personnel need to share info with their relatives? What do they get out of it?


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## The Eagle

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> The Saudis and the Americans paid for the Pakistani F-16s. When Pakistan paid for then, PAF received soya beans instead.
> 
> Who's going to pay for J-10s?



British Queen

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## kursed

MastanKhan said:


> With those facts in mind, the J-10CE is likely a credible threat against anything. Is it as good as the Rafale? No. However, not being as good doesn't necessarily mean you're not good enough to take it down. The MiG-21bis was not as good as the F-16, but the PAF still considered it a credible threat to the F-16. Moreover, sometimes the qualities of 'being better' aren't necessarily relevant to the scenario we're thinking about. So, the Rafale is a phenomenally better strike and maritime fighter.
> @SQ8 @kursed @Chak Bamu


I have to say that when judging PLAAF and PLAN system qualities, we need to keep in mind that their primary enemy lies in SCS. Their entire system capability is being built to take on an active deterrence role against some of the top-tier naval and aerial powers in the SCS. If we still think that Chinese radars, EW and ESM is not up to the mark, then we'd be seriously underestimating them. They are not gearing up to take on the likes of India.. 

I do still believe that in terms of material sciences they might be a few years behind Europe but fast catching up, but in terms of EW/ESM, Seeker, and rocket propulsion tech, they are pretty much world leaders. This is also why you see a lot of Chinese emphasis upon missiles, seeker, radar, EW, and avionics - because where they lack in engine propulsion tech, they'd make up for it elsewhere. Chinese also believe in very very fast reiterations, so if anyone is judging them by singular failures, does not really realize how fast they figure problems out and sort them out in the real world.

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## The Eagle

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Where's the discipline? Why do serving personnel need to share info with their relatives? What do they get out of it?



Chacha, Mama and Taya problem. Discipline? Koi nahi. Aish kar.


Zapper said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478349496409022466



This guy is just attracting RSS trolls and nothing else. He might get net-lynched.

However, interest was reported many a times before. But, those SU-35 with PLAAF might be handed over in sweet deal after upgradation/hard and software of choice etc etc. I don't see that happening and they aren't coming.

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## syed_yusuf

I am very surprised to know that j10c carries 4500 kg on internal fuel. No other single engine fighter carry that much internal fuel as far as I know


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## kursed

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Why would Pakistan Air Force acquire an aircraft which it has rejected for 2 decades under 3 different Government administrations giving various excuses each it was offered.


J10C is not J10A. J10C with WS10 is not J10C with AL-31F.

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## alikazmi007

BBC is jumping into the fray:









جے-10 طیارے کن صلاحیتوں کے حامل ہیں اور کیا پاکستان انھیں خریدنے کا خواہشمند ہے؟ - BBC News اردو


پاکستان یا چین نے جے-10 طیاروں کی فروخت کی تصدیق نہیں کی ہے تاہم اگر یہ جدید لڑاکا طیارے پاکستان کی دفاعی فورس کا حصہ بنتے ہیں تو ملک کی سمندری دفاعی صلاحیت مضبوط ہوسکتی ہے۔




www.bbc.com

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## Goenitz

kursed said:


> I do still believe that in terms of material sciences they might be a few years behind Europe but fast catching up, but in terms of EW/ESM, Seeker, and rocket propulsion tech, they are pretty much world leaders. This is also why you see a lot of Chinese emphasis upon missiles, seeker, radar, EW, and avionics - because where they lack in engine propulsion tech, they'd make up for it elsewhere. Chinese also believe in very very fast reiterations, so if anyone is judging them by singular failures, does not really realize how fast they figure problems out and sort them out in the real world.


In universities here, you can find many Chinese ethnic faculty in IT and control system programmes. At one time,staffordshire control system faculty was overwhelmingly chinese, (in 2015-16) I guess. Mine and my sister advisors were both chinese.

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## Ali_Baba

alikazmi007 said:


> BBC is jumping into the fray:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> جے-10 طیارے کن صلاحیتوں کے حامل ہیں اور کیا پاکستان انھیں خریدنے کا خواہشمند ہے؟ - BBC News اردو
> 
> 
> پاکستان یا چین نے جے-10 طیاروں کی فروخت کی تصدیق نہیں کی ہے تاہم اگر یہ جدید لڑاکا طیارے پاکستان کی دفاعی فورس کا حصہ بنتے ہیں تو ملک کی سمندری دفاعی صلاحیت مضبوط ہوسکتی ہے۔
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com



I did a google translate - the theme seems to be that there is no contract signed for these yet - and somehow they are good for/suited for maritime operations. 

Am fairly sure the native speakers will do a much better job of translation!


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## Pakistan Space Agency

The Eagle said:


> Chacha, Mama and Taya problem. Discipline? Koi nahi. Aish kar.


That is worrying. Wondering how Pakistan has survived this long.

If it's okay for you to reveal, can I ask how does the military interact with the PDF staff to prevent certain information from being published here? Is it via ISPR making a request or someone with a direct hotline between the military and the forum admin(s)?


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## Rafi

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> That is worrying. Wondering how Pakistan has survived this long.
> 
> If it's okay for you to reveal, can I ask how does the military interact with the PDF staff to prevent certain information from being published here? Is it via ISPR making a request or someone with a direct hotline between the military and the forum admin(s)?



Don't worry MI get involved to prevent more flagrant transgressions. Sometimes the MiL will use these so called "chacha, Mamu" <leaks> to deliberately show a capability.


Sal12 said:


> Yes. This no secret anymore that Bajwa and others in NSC meeting on evening of 26th Feb after Indian attack were not in favour of retaliation. Their argument was that no damage occurred in Balakot strike. This was then CJCSC General Zubair Hayat, Asad Umar who were adamant on retaliating the Balakot strike to deny India for creating such a precedent. IK sided with them too and rest is history.



BS Bajwa would have lost the Army Officers and rank and fire if the forces hadn't retaliated.

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## The Eagle

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> That is worrying. Wondering how Pakistan has survived this long.



No worries. A lot changed. We now knock on the door without any hesitation be it Chacha or Mama.


Pakistan Space Agency said:


> If it's okay for you to reveal, can I ask how does the military interact with the PDF staff to prevent certain information from being published here? Is it via ISPR making a request or someone with a direct hotline between the military and the forum admin(s)?



It shouldn't be an interest of anyone.
To whom it may concern

No propaganda and diversion tactics here.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

alikazmi007 said:


> BBC is jumping into the fray:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> جے-10 طیارے کن صلاحیتوں کے حامل ہیں اور کیا پاکستان انھیں خریدنے کا خواہشمند ہے؟ - BBC News اردو
> 
> 
> پاکستان یا چین نے جے-10 طیاروں کی فروخت کی تصدیق نہیں کی ہے تاہم اگر یہ جدید لڑاکا طیارے پاکستان کی دفاعی فورس کا حصہ بنتے ہیں تو ملک کی سمندری دفاعی صلاحیت مضبوط ہوسکتی ہے۔
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


From the article:

مشرف حکومت کے آخری دنوں میں بھی پاکستان نے اعلان کیا تھا کہ پاکستان چین سے 'جے-10' طیارے خریدے گا لیکن معاشی و اقتصادی مشکلات کے سبب یہ منصوبہ کھٹائی میں پڑ گیا تھا۔ ان دنوں میں بھی یہ اعلان شیخ رشید نے ہی کیا تھا جو اس وقت پاکستان مسلم لیگ (ق) کے وزرا پر مشتمل کابینہ کا حصہ ہوا کرتے تھے۔

It says, previously in the last days of Pervez Musharraf's regime, it was also Shaikh Rasheed who at that time had also announced Pakistan was buying the J-10s.

The article says, nothing is mentioned in the military's Air Book 2021 of this acquisition which is where upcoming acquisitions are normally mentioned.

It also states, this might just be a political gimmick by the incumbent Government to show it's achievements.

Most importantly, it says a retired Pakistan Air Force officer on the condition of anonymity says, the J-10s could increase Pakistan naval influence in the Arabia Sea.

Now, what are the chances that China is actually getting an Air Base in the Southern Pakistan to protect the Gwadar as opposed to Pakistan Air Force actually buying the J-10s?


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## The Eagle

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Now, what are the chances that China is actually getting an Air Base in the Southern Pakistan to protect the Gwadar as opposed to Pakistan Air Force actually buying the J-10s?



Nada. Please. I don't know how confused you are or is it you deliberately insulting Pakistan and it's capability to defend or like, Pakistan is sold as such. Will you or anyone else, stop your imaginations from running wild and crazy at best. Khuda k liye oh Bhai.

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## JawadKKhan

Sal12 said:


> Yes. This is not secret anymore that Bajwa and others in NSC meeting on evening of 26th Feb after Indian attack were not in favour of retaliation. Their argument was that no damage occurred in Balakot strike. This was then CJCSC General Zubair Hayat, Asad Umar who were adamant on retaliating the Balakot strike to deny India for creating such a precedent. IK sided with them too and rest is history.


My opinion on this is that the response would not be possible had any of the services chiefs opposed it. The main player was Chief of Air Staff. The calm & confidence on his face was telling everything. 



Pakistan Space Agency said:


> If it's okay for you to reveal, can I ask how does the military interact with the PDF staff to prevent certain information from being published here? Is it via ISPR making a request or someone with a direct hotline between the military and the forum admin(s)?


  I m sure military has lot more stuff to do then to worry about forums or some rumors. Most sensitive project Pakistan undertook was nuclear program. Till 80's the agencies used to have full track of even movement of relatives of the key personals. Numerous experiences only increased the faith on the agencies of that era. The conventional acquisitions doesn't even match a fraction of sensitivities involved. The info's when it has reached family members is already de-classified. That means that info is no longer classified that's why it has reached to that point. Also once a de-classified info is published, there is no mechanism to hide it. The twitteratis / Yts / various blogs will catch it if its really worth attention. Who's going to stop that.

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## SQ8

Big_bud said:


> Nope, I dont think so. In close combat more manurable aircraft would always win. Unless the underdog get a purely lucky shot or you are assuming that the enemy aircraft has TVC but can't fire a high off bore missile. You have to Jam the weapon engagement zone of the enemy aircraft. If you go for a 1 circle or 2 circle dog fight, a TVC equipped plane would always be pointing nose at you with ease. A TVC equipped plane would even give a Rafale or RFT a run for its money in WVR. The Indian SU30 is great for WVR. However its said that it has issues with radar and how certain upgrades have been done on it.


Yes - but that nose pointing post stall maneuvering also loses a lot of energy. In a 1v1 or 2v2 it may give an advantage but there are cues to use to negate this advantage. However, given the introduction of high off boresight systems this gets negated. Until the block-3 was introduced Pakistan was at a disadvantage against engaging a su-30 in WVR but that has been fairly negated. That being said - lot was given away in that old Indian red flag video regarding the key issues with the MKI TVC which isn’t a true 3d nozzle but a forced 3d through a diagonal 2d that generated massive drag when used.

However, the astute MKi pilot will likely never have to use TVc because the platform is a great energy fighter regardless.

For an aircraft like the F-22 it uses its TVC(integrated with flight control unlike the MKI where it is an on off button) during LPi LO BVR engagements to induce attitude changes without deflection of control surfaces for signature management. The MKi however has a cross section rivalling the A220 and at times are spotted when they are barely at a 100ft from IAF bases closer to the border.

The IAF made a strategic mistake by assuming that the PAF would not get BVR access for a considerable while and would not be operational for it. Their late 90s ASR focused their force on WVR excellence thinking they will be mixing it up with 32 odd F-16s or mostly WVR focused PAF aircraft not accounting for 9/11 and that shift. Top it off with their harangued acquisition process until Modi where they could not decide on an aircraft for over ten years when having their kitty overflowing!
Today they are catching/caught up and eventually will overtake the PAF again in 5-8 years because their economy is now a juggernaut compared to the banana republic one that is Pakistan’s.

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## spectregunship

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> That is worrying. Wondering how Pakistan has survived this long.
> 
> If it's okay for you to reveal, can I ask how does the military interact with the PDF staff to prevent certain information from being published here? Is it via ISPR making a request or someone with a direct hotline between the military and the forum admin(s)?



Whenever such an information is delved out it is mostly in the domain of not being a classified one. Almost every new weapon acquisition that has been finalised is shared with not just 1 star and above but it goes down to the junior most levels so as to give them an understanding of what is about to come and how the military is preparing for capabilities of the future. So I do not see any harm if somebody's relation shares information on latest acquisitions. Besides, people do understand the information that is to be shared is different from the one that is intended for specific ranks only.

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## Shotgunner51

kursed said:


> material sciences


Material science is a field that Chinese researchers are particularly famous of, far ahead of European peers, as per Thomson Reuters world's top 6 material scientists are all from China. However due to lack of R&D lab/fund in early years most Chinese material scientists either work in US universities or Japan institute (NIMS), in fact several of them are core researchers behind 5th gen single-crystal superalloy (used in blade for aero engine) TMS-162 as well as latest 6th gen TMS-238. In recent decade as China is beginning to provide first class R&D facilities & fund, more and more scientists return home and become the backbone of advanced materials industry.

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## Big_bud

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> I still dont believe in this acquisition until someone other than Shaikh Rasheed confirms it. I see it this way so far.
> 
> Why would Pakistan Air Force acquire an aircraft which it has rejected for 2 decades under 3 different Government administrations giving various excuses each time it was offered.
> 
> Also, how does having 2 medium-weight combat platforms and 4 light-weight combat platforms at the same time makes any sense for an air force that operates around 400 combat aircraft?
> 
> I don't know if I want to be proven wrong or if I'll be happy with a disappointment of this acquisition not materialising.



WS-10 - 140KN class engine, thrust vectoring, bigger better radar, PL15s and maybe PL21s in future. Intra operability with China. Offsets advantage of Rafale and SU30 to a decent extent.

Our F16s - 106 KN
Our JF17 - 84KN
Our Mirage 3/5 - 60.8KN
Our J7 - 64.7

Indian:
Mig29 - 163.16KN
Su30MKI - 246KN
Rafale - 150KN

We needed a slightly heavier single engine fighter. F16s in skilful hands can defend themselves against above. But they still will be hanging from the very edge of their seats. in BVR our F16s have same range as their missiles but if an F16 has to engage in a WVR with the Russian jets or Rafale. They will have a tough tough time. Nose pointing authority of specially SU30 is exceptional. JF has no chance against any of these in a WVR fight. BVR, yes.

I'm expecting with certainty that if any new platform is coming to PAF in future, it would be dual engine only. No more new platform under single engine. India is into an arms race and Pakistan has to follow unwillingly.

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## Battlion25

The Eagle said:


> No worries. A lot changed. We now knock on the door without any hesitation be it Chacha or Mama.
> 
> 
> It shouldn't be an interest of anyone.
> To whom it may concern
> 
> No propaganda and diversion tactics here.



His been doing this for ages nothing new bounce him


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## Titanium100

vi-va said:


> Waiting for PAF painting.
> 
> View attachment 804266
> View attachment 804267
> View attachment 804268
> View attachment 804269



The same here... I think atleast 2-3 of them will get the Pakistan flag painting while the remaining will get light greyish paint just a prediction tho


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## Shotgunner51

Big_bud said:


> WS-10 - 140KN class engine


Yes the massively upgraded C variant (with latest materials and on improved processes) can deliver 142kN as per Janes or 14.5~15.0 tons per Chinese sources, roughly equals to two M88 (which is the weakest of all medium-thrust as compared to RD93, WS-13E, F404/414 or EJ200)

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## khansaheeb

Pakistan confirms Chinese ‘Firebird’ fighter acquisition


Pakistan has officially confirmed its long-speculated acquisition of the Chinese J-10C “Firebird” fighter, which will arrive in time to take part in the March 23 Pakistan Day parade.




www.defensenews.com

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## applesauce

maverick1977 said:


> Pakistan will get good experience planning for S400 during Turk Pakistan air force exercies. I wont worry too much once pakistan learns what the system is and how to counter it.



dont even have to go that far.
china literally got the s400 years before india, and its a given that the PLA would have ran all kinds of tests/practice with it especially knowing that india is likely to get the same system.
if anyone other than the russians knows how to counter the s400, its going to be the chinese.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> The Saudis and the Americans paid for the Pakistani F-16s. When Pakistan paid for then, PAF received soya beans instead.
> 
> Who's going to pay for J-10s?


Unseen elements....

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## Zarvan

Zapper said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478349496409022466


He is suggesting for Naval role. Until and Unless Russia has agreed to put AESA radar in SU 35 along with other features, not happening. Also our induction of twin seater jet for Navy would be purely based on whether Indian Navy chooses F-18 BLOCK III or not. If they do then either J-15 or SU-35 if Russia agrees to put AESA can't be ruled out.

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## The Terminator

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> That is worrying. Wondering how Pakistan has survived this long.
> 
> If it's okay for you to reveal, can I ask how does the military interact with the PDF staff to prevent certain information from being published here? Is it via ISPR making a request or someone with a direct hotline between the military and the forum admin(s)?


Lol I have seen Intel officers easily leaking confidential info to all their friends and family especially which aren't related to national security for obvious reasons. 

But other than that they deal with a very sloppy unprofessional behaviour. They happily violate their oath and breach people's privacy to friends & family. But when they do try to leak info related to national security/anti state then they highly risk themselves of being caught and punished.


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## Clutch

Allegedly

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zarvan said:


> He is suggesting for Naval role. Until and Unless Russia has agreed to put AESA radar in SU 35 along with other features, not happening. Also our induction of twin seater jet for Navy would be purely based on whether Indian Navy chooses F-18 BLOCK III or not. If they do then either J-15 or SU-35 if Russia agrees to put AESA can't be ruled out.


The idea that Russia could quietly sell those recently manufactured Su-35s to Pakistan and tell the US they're just PLAAF J-16s on exercise is, without doubt, the best theory that will never come true.

I'm just laying it out here for the YouTubers to eat up.

Come pidgies. Eat. And tell @Deino what you've heard.







@kursed @JamD @SQ8

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## HAIDER

applesauce said:


> dont even have to go that far.
> china literally got the s400 years before india, and its a given that the PLA would have ran all kinds of tests/practice with it especially knowing that india is likely to get the same system.
> if anyone other than the russians knows how to counter the s400, its going to be the chinese.


This is my assessment too ...Chinese already tested J10 against S400 ..... for India it's only a useful anti ballistic missile weapon..

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## Zarvan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The idea that Russia could quietly sell those recently manufactured Su-35s to Pakistan and tell the US they're just PLAAF J-16s on exercise is, without doubt, the best theory that will never come true.
> 
> I'm just laying it out here for the YouTubers to eat up.
> 
> Come pidgies. Eat. And tell @Deino what you've heard.
> 
> View attachment 805983
> 
> 
> 
> @kursed @JamD @SQ8


Dual Seater has only chance if India goes for F 18 BLOCK III. Then either J 16 or J 15 or SU 35 can come


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## IceCold

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> The Saudis and the Americans paid for the Pakistani F-16s. When Pakistan paid for them, PAF received soya beans instead.
> 
> Who's going to pay for J-10s?


Oh! How convenient that you remember soyabean but not the wheat which your beloved nawaz asked for instead of getting the F16s or the money back. Surprising fact was that Clinton had offered nawaz to either get F16s or the money back. He instead chose wheat.

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## Longhorn

araz said:


> Yes! You cannot say the JFT cockpit is cramped if sheiko can fit in. On a side note how the hell did he get in in the first place?
> 
> A


How did he get back out, is what I want to know.


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## serenity

Shotgunner51 said:


> Material science is a field that Chinese researchers are particularly famous of, far ahead of European peers, as per Thomson Reuters world's top 6 material scientists are all from China. However due to lack of R&D lab/fund in early years most Chinese material scientists either work in US universities or Japan institute (NIMS), in fact several of them are core researchers behind 5th gen single-crystal superalloy (used in blade for aero engine) TMS-162 as well as latest 6th gen TMS-238. In recent decade as China is beginning to provide first class R&D facilities & fund, more and more scientists return home and become the backbone of advanced materials industry.



Japan is first to 6th gen superalloys for turbine engines which is ahead of everyone but in every other engine field related to military turbofan, they are lagging but not by far. Japan's turbine technology leadership is in gas turbines instead for energy and even shipping.

China's I think was 4th generation equivalent is the best that is revealed to public but mostly actual use is still 2nd and 3rd gen material. USA and UK are at 5th generation of material. India at 1st generation which is actually pretty impressive.

It is said that 2nd and 3rd gen is actually advantageous and good enough, in fact equal to 4th and 5th gen in most aspects with the benefit of the newer ones being for certain manufacturing purposes. But the recent talks by some Chinese materials scientists claiming China's own development level is one to two generation lagging the best means there is a lot more work required just like with chips industry. China needs to get those experts back working for itself. Chinese experts make up about 20% of USA's AI industry and these are just Chinese born ones not even Chinese Americans. Trump's policies keeps pushing experts back and discouraging as many from leaving which is good.

In the past China loses 90 out of 100 talents, now it loses 10 out of 100 net with plenty choosing to return as conditions improve and conditions out there worsen especially with more unfriendliness.

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## Goritoes

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The idea that Russia could quietly sell those recently manufactured Su-35s to Pakistan and tell the US they're just PLAAF J-16s on exercise is, without doubt, the best theory that will never come true.
> 
> I'm just laying it out here for the YouTubers to eat up.
> 
> Come pidgies. Eat. And tell @Deino what you've heard.
> 
> View attachment 805983
> 
> 
> 
> @kursed @JamD @SQ8



Just out of curiosity, does PN really need Twin engine flankers ?


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## serenity

Shotgunner51 said:


> Yes the massively upgraded C variant (with latest materials and on improved processes) can deliver 142kN as per Janes or 14.5~15.0 tons per Chinese sources, roughly equals to two M88 (which is the weakest of all medium-thrust as compared to RD93, WS-13E, F404/414 or EJ200)



M88 is an advanced engine compared to RD-33 or 93 and WS-13 but it offers much less power. However it is also smaller and lighter and maybe more thermal efficient I recall. Basically M88 may be weaker but it's still more advanced. It is WS-19 that is aimed to meet or exceed EJ200 and F414 power output and technology levels. M88 is not impressive but also not unimpressive. For Rafale it is the right engine I guess. RD-93 and WS-13 are just more powerful but two M88 is much more expensive as well so truly if one can choose a single F110 or WS-10B instead of two M88, it is much better. The first option is actually lighter and much less complex with about half the parts to maintain and replace. Single engine however requires extremely high reliability.

So far only F4xx on Gripen and Tejas, F100 and F110 on F-16, WS-10B on J-10C, and F135 on F-35 have been good enough for single engine fighter.

Russia refuses single engine based on past doctrine reflecting the range of fights and size of country but also because their engine reliability of that era was nowhere near American ones. WS-10A started matching and beating AL-31 series only after years of refining and improving and 10 years proof of record flying on J-11B before CAC and PLAAF was happy enough to replace AL-31 with WS-10B for J-10C. The only non-American engine on Earth that is on a single engine fighter.



HAIDER said:


> This is my assessment too ...Chinese already tested J10 against S400 ..... for India it's only a useful anti ballistic missile weapon..



I don't think defeating S400's 40N6 is that easy even the 200km ranged missiles offer pretty good counter to SOWs if supported by medium and short range air defences that are integrated. While India does not have integrated AD they still have S400s which can keep non stealth fighters at around 200km away with high probability to kill. S400's advertized range of 400km is bullshit perfect world ideal conditions nonsense. 40N6 may fly to 400km but can barely take out a helicopter at that range. However it is still the longest range SAM that can be used against fighters and that means the most energy to defeat any fighter on earth. No other SAM system currently can even get close to that energy.

If PLAAF tried ways to find a perfect solution to defeat SAM like S400 since we had so many years to do this, it would be through some targeted electronic attack method that exploit weakness of some process chain in S400 units.

I think this is not for J-10 but something for Y series EW aircraft and something like J-16D or special purpose EW attack drones. To be honest, the easiest most effective and cheapest way is stealth drones that are fast too like GJ-11. These will be able to destroy SAMs like they are nothing but operator would need high sorties and lots of drones and missiles to do the job since you need to exhaust their medium and short range SAMs if they become integrated with long range search radars and then fire control radars.

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## Deino

Clutch said:


> View attachment 805979




Oh no ... do you guys ever read a thread and what was written so often before or do your homework?  

These images are from April last year and show PLAAF J-10C, that were delivered thru 2021 to the 25th and maybe 16th Air Brigades but surely not PAF birds still waiting.

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## abdulbarijan

Big_bud said:


> You didn't get what I wrote. Comment was in reference to the airframe design + the engine its paired with. As I said, JF needs a strong engine with this design to have good turn rate and nose pointing authority. It can not pull 9G like others can. Anyways, you can believe in whatever you like.


There is a reason why I asked you to kindly consult the information thread. After spending around 10+ years on the forum, I will tell you this, I do not possess the technical knowledge to comment on airframe design. I can however comment with confidence, only on the management of the program, marketing ( as I do possess knowledge as far as these fields are concerned) and maybe a bit of surface level analysis having spend a lot of time on this forum back in the day where serious discussions was a thing ..

I fail to understand how people who are new here and do not really possess the technical know how (newsflash: it is quite obvious) comment with such sweeping statements such as the jet is under powered or it doesn't belong in the 4th generation.

So again, I refer you to some examples,
1.the Mirage 2000 with its snechma M53-P2 can produce around 95 KN of thrust (21,400 pounds of thrust) with a loaded weight of around 30,000 pounds, has a Thrust to weight ratio of 0.71. The earlier model of the Mirage 2000 had the M-53-5 which produced even less at around 19,400 pounds of thrust.

2.Take the Gripen with the earlier models being powered by Volvo RM-12 producing 18,100 pounds of thrust. Compare that with the RD-93's 19000 pounds of thrust, along with the loaded weight of jf-17 at 20000 pounds i.e. a T/w of 0.95.

3. As far as G limits go, some models of the F/A-18A/c could pull less than the JF-17 i.e. around +7.5/-3 when they were introduced.

*Question: Are you comfortable saying that the Gripen, Mirage 2000 and the F/A-18 do not belong in the 4th generation? *

It is quite well documented that PAF was quite strict when it came to the performance parameters of the aircraft, just look at the difference between the first prototypes and the PT-04. Or one could simply listen to AVM (retd.) Shahid Latif regarding the program. The answer to most queries is the block building approach. What remains to be seen is how the rest of the JF-17 fleet will be upgraded once the deliveries of the block-III is complete.

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## serenity

Photos time of J-10C.















If they put the WS-10 TVC version on eventually, it would be an even better dogfighter.


























At least it is lighter without TVC.

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## Big_bud

abdulbarijan said:


> There is a reason why I asked you to kindly consult the information thread. After spending around 10+ years on the forum, I will tell you this, I do not possess the technical knowledge to comment on airframe design. I can however comment with confidence, only on the management of the program, marketing ( as I do possess knowledge as far as these fields are concerned) and maybe a bit of surface level analysis having spend a lot of time on this forum back in the day where serious discussions was a thing ..
> 
> I fail to understand how people who are new here and do not really possess the technical know how (newsflash: it is quite obvious) comment with such sweeping statements such as the jet is under powered or it doesn't belong in the 4th generation.
> 
> So again, I refer you to some examples,
> 1.the Mirage 2000 with its snechma M53-P2 can produce around 95 KN of thrust (21,400 pounds of thrust) with a loaded weight of around 30,000 pounds, has a Thrust to weight ratio of 0.71. The earlier model of the Mirage 2000 had the M-53-5 which produced even less at around 19,400 pounds of thrust.
> 
> 2.Take the Gripen with the earlier models being powered by Volvo RM-12 producing 18,100 pounds of thrust. Compare that with the RD-93's 19000 pounds of thrust, along with the loaded weight of jf-17 at 20000 pounds i.e. a T/w of 0.95.
> 
> 3. As far as G limits go, some models of the F/A-18A/c could pull less than the JF-17 i.e. around +7.5/-3 when they were introduced.
> 
> *Question: Are you comfortable saying that the Gripen, Mirage 2000 and the F/A-18 do not belong in the 4th generation? *
> 
> It is quite well documented that PAF was quite strict when it came to the performance parameters of the aircraft, just look at the difference between the first prototypes and the PT-04. Or one could simply listen to AVM (retd.) Shahid Latif regarding the program. The answer to most queries is the block building approach. What remains to be seen is how the rest of the JF-17 fleet will be upgraded once the deliveries of the block-III is complete.



Oh sorry to hurt your sentiments my dear old friend, but didn't you read rest of my post? no, no anything would fall on deaf ears, whatever I say. ACM Sohail Aman called it a 3-3.5 Gen fighter in one of his interviews. Is he a newbie too? As I said its useless to debate with someone who is unable to have an unbiased learned opinion.

And I already I said you can think and believe in whatever you want. Block 1s & 2s are not true 4th gens. And canards or Gs or Engine hasn't got much to do with it. Its the lack of capability which makes it a 3.5 Gen. Performance is one of its limiting factors, but Gen is related to capability.

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## untitled

Big_bud said:


> Block 1s & 2s are not true 4th gens


What's your definition of a 4th gen aircraft?


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## Clutch

Deino said:


> Oh no ... do you guys ever read a thread and what was written so often before or do your homework?
> 
> These images are from April last year and show PLAAF J-10C, that were delivered thru 2021 to the 25th and maybe 16th Air Brigades but surely not PAF birds still waiting.
> 
> View attachment 806025



Allegedly


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## abdulbarijan

Big_bud said:


> Oh sorry to hurt your sentiments my dear old friend, but didn't you read rest of my post? no, no anything would fall on deaf ears, whatever I say. ACM Sohail Aman called it a 3-3.5 Gen fighter in one of his interviews. Is he a newbie too? As I said its useless to debate with someone who is unable to have an unbiased learned opinion.
> 
> And I already I said you can think and believe in whatever you want. *Block 1s & 2s are not true 4th gens. And canards or Gs or Engine hasn't got much to do with it.* Its the lack of capability which makes it a 3.5 Gen. Performance is one of its limiting factors, but Gen is related to capability.


Just to quote your previous posts ..


Big_bud said:


> You didn't get what I wrote. Comment was in reference to the airframe design + the engine its paired with. *As I said, JF needs a strong engine with this design to have good turn rate and nose pointing authority. It can not pull 9G like others can.* Anyways, you can believe in whatever you like.





Big_bud said:


> Block 2s don't have HMDs. They dont have an Aesa. Their fuel tanks are small and hardpoints limited. *They have an average engine thrust. They dont have canards. Such an aircraft needs a powerful engine, like F16, if you are going to pitch it against SU30s, Mirages and Migs. They can only fire SD10s. They are not true 4th gens hence they shouldn't be included in the list.*
> 
> Block 3s once they arrive will be true 4+ Gen. Since PL15s will make a lot of difference in their lethality. Otherwise JFs can't engage in a dogfight comfortably with any of the above.


Spare us the word salad when you can't even maintain a semblance of consistency in reasoning across 3 mere posts.

As far as the airchief Sohail Aman is concerned, kindly post the video here, it could easily be that the former airchief is quoting the Chinese classification of generations where the likes of J-20/F-35/F-22 are termed 4th generation aircrafts while the SU-35's/Mig-29's/J-11's/J-10's/F-16's etc. and the likes are termed the 3rd generation aircrafts. 

I can cite the following:







To quote the former airchief Sohail Aman on a program aired on Feb of 2020 (you can go directly to the time stamp of 11:55 to get this quote)
*"Technology onboard the JF-17 is nowhere lesser than F-16, in fact in some aspects it has the edge over the F-16 (the JF-17 does)" *



Regards,
Abj

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## luciferdd

Big_bud said:


> Oh sorry to hurt your sentiments my dear old friend, but didn't you read rest of my post? no, no anything would fall on deaf ears, whatever I say. ACM Sohail Aman called it a 3-3.5 Gen fighter in one of his interviews. Is he a newbie too? As I said its useless to debate with someone who is unable to have an unbiased learned opinion.
> 
> And I already I said you can think and believe in whatever you want. Block 1s & 2s are not true 4th gens. And canards or Gs or Engine hasn't got much to do with it. Its the lack of capability which makes it a 3.5 Gen. Performance is one of its limiting factors, but Gen is related to capability.


F-16A/B don't have any BVR capability,are they 3th Gen?

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## untitled

untitled said:


> What's your definition of a 4th gen aircraft?


My understanding of a 4th generation fighter aircameaft is any aircraft that entered service from or was designed from 1970s to 2000s which met most of the criteria listed below:

1) Full fly-by-wire control.. Exception to this are F-15, F-14, MiG-29 and of course the JF-17

2) The aircraft manuaveribilty was given equal consideration along with it's top speed and ceiling. Exception was the Tornado 

3) Turbofan engines

4) Had a decent radar

5) Low observability was not given sufficient consideration


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## HRK

I don't know why some new member are raising the issue of Fighter aircraft generations,

For ease of understanding I am attaching an Official Table from an Official Report of Singapore Ministry of Defence below

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## GiantPanda

People like to point out the Gripen/J-11A 2015 Falcon Strike exercise. But remember, that was only one of four such exercises and it was revealed by Senior PLAAF Pilot Li Zhonghua at Northwestern Polytechnical University in 2019 to push changes in the Chinese Air Force, especially in regards to the J-11A.


The Gripen's performance was at its worst inside the within visual range (WVR) envelope. Over a two-day period, PLAAF pilots shot down 25 Gripens at a loss of only one Su-27.
Once the exercise transitioned to beyond visual range (BVR) combat, JAS-39's advantages became apparent. The Swedish aircraft shot down 41 Su-27s over a period of four days with a loss of only nine Gripens.
The Gripen’s Raytheon AIM-120 AAM also outranged the RVV-AE at 80km versus only 50 km for the Russian missile.
Li stated that the JAS-39C/D’s much smaller radar cross-section (RCS) at 1.5-2.0 m2 was a major factor, as the much larger Su-27 is easier to detect at 12 sq miles. The JAS-39 can also ripple-fire up to four AIM-120s simultaneously but the Su-27 can fire only one RVV-AE at a time.
Li said subsequent exercises the PLAAF fared better by sending the Chengdu J-10A and especially the J-10C which were more than match for the JAS-39C/D. He said the “active array radar significantly improves detection distance and multi-target attack capability, the DSI (divertless) air intake of the J-10C reduces the radar intercept area while the PL-15 missile increases the range, making it an over-the-horizon platform.”

The J-11As in Thailand use the same BVR missile, the R-77, as all exported Flankers (including SU-30 MKI.) The J-11A were extremely potent dogfighters (it crushed the Gripen 25 to 1 in WVR) but were also first generation BVR platforms. Their size and the poor performance of the R-77 in particular gave them a huge disadvantage in BVR fight.

The J-10A had little problems with the Gripens in the 2017 and 2018 Falcon Strike exercises. The J-10C in 2019 reportedly had a very easy time with the JAS-39. The J-10A and J-10C use Chinese radar and missile exclusively.

The J-10s, even the A version, can handle the Gripen with relative ease. Can the Rafale do the same to the Gripen?

Anyways, for Pakistan, the vast bulk of the IAF is not the Rafales. It is the SU-30 MKI armed with the R-77. The JF-17 is the same size as the Gripen with the same generation of BVR equipment. So what does the 2015 Falcon Strike exercise tells us about a small modern fighter versus an exported Flanker armed with the R-77?

The J-10C had won Golden Helmet Awards in the past several years against the J-16 (which is a much more modern Flanker than the J-11A or SU-30 MKI.)

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## JawadKKhan

HRK said:


> I don't know why some new member are raising the issue of Fighter aircraft generations,
> 
> For ease of understanding I am attaching an Official Table from an Official Report of Singapore Ministry of Defence below
> 
> View attachment 806052




I think people get confused when they don't understand that there is no global unified generation system. The Chinese generation system is different then the west's. China started manufacturing aircrafts when west was at 2nd generation. The F-35/F-22 / J-20 is 4th generation according to typical & traditional chinese generation system. So whenever Western media quote chinese text they do conversion according to their own standard for aircrafts but indian articles will omit this conversion deliberately telling their audiences that aircraft is of lower tech / generation. They do this massive propaganda for clearly a 4th Gen JF-17 block I & II as third generation. An agile, cropped delta aircraft with adv avionics / bvr capable is 4th generation by any definition of west's generation of fighters.


The PAC / its engineers which works mostly with the chinese systems for aircraft manufacturing. They were used to with chinese generation system to qualify aircrafts. I recall old reports saying Joint fighter program with China as an aircraft as capable as F-16, and upgrading our infrastructure / capabilities to support third generation aircraft developments. So these kind of statements added the confusion in general public without knowing the difference of chinese vs west qualification of fighter jets.

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## baqai

Longhorn said:


> How did he get back out, is what I want to know.



they made him sit on the ejector seat and manufactured the plane around it, simple ...

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## Zarvan

#DGISPR just called induction of J-10 C as "nothing special" but a routine matter.

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## alimobin memon

GiantPanda said:


> People like to point out the Gripen/J-11A 2015 Falcon Strike exercise. But remember, that was only one of four such exercises and it was revealed by Senior PLAAF Pilot Li Zhonghua at Northwestern Polytechnical University in 2019 to push changes in the Chinese Air Force, especially in regards to the J-11A.
> 
> 
> The Gripen's performance was at its worst inside the within visual range (WVR) envelope. Over a two-day period, PLAAF pilots shot down 25 Gripens at a loss of only one Su-27.
> Once the exercise transitioned to beyond visual range (BVR) combat, JAS-39's advantages became apparent. The Swedish aircraft shot down 41 Su-27s over a period of four days with a loss of only nine Gripens.
> The Gripen’s Raytheon AIM-120 AAM also outranged the RVV-AE at 80km versus only 50 km for the Russian missile.
> Li stated that the JAS-39C/D’s much smaller radar cross-section (RCS) at 1.5-2.0 m2 was a major factor, as the much larger Su-27 is easier to detect at 12 sq miles. The JAS-39 can also ripple-fire up to four AIM-120s simultaneously but the Su-27 can fire only one RVV-AE at a time.
> Li said subsequent exercises the PLAAF fared better by sending the Chengdu J-10A and especially the J-10C which were more than match for the JAS-39C/D. He said the “active array radar significantly improves detection distance and multi-target attack capability, the DSI (divertless) air intake of the J-10C reduces the radar intercept area while the PL-15 missile increases the range, making it an over-the-horizon platform.”
> 
> The J-11As in Thailand use the same BVR missile, the R-77, as all exported Flankers (including SU-30 MKI.) The J-11A were extremely potent dogfighters (it crushed the Gripen 25 to 1 in WVR) but were also first generation BVR platforms. Their size and the poor performance of the R-77 in particular gave them a huge disadvantage in BVR fight.
> 
> The J-10A had little problems with the Gripens in the 2017 and 2018 Falcon Strike exercises. The J-10C in 2019 reportedly had a very easy time with the JAS-39. The J-10A and J-10C use Chinese radar and missile exclusively.
> 
> The J-10s, even the A version, can handle the Gripen with relative ease. Can the Rafale do the same to the Gripen?
> 
> Anyways, for Pakistan, the vast bulk of the IAF is not the Rafales. It is the SU-30 MKI armed with the R-77. The JF-17 is the same size as the Gripen with the same generation of BVR equipment. So what does the 2015 Falcon Strike exercise tells us about a small modern fighter versus an exported Flanker armed with the R-77?
> 
> The J-10C had won Golden Helmet Awards in the past several years against the J-16 (which is a much more modern Flanker than the J-11A or SU-30 MKI.)


Good Analysis, JF17 is also good just a light fighter. It can fare against Indian air force planes. J10C is overkill against all fighters except Rafale where it might be equal or near equal to it.


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## Signalian

Goritoes said:


> Just out of curiosity, does PN really need Twin engine flankers ?


How about three-engines ?






PN should form its Naval Fighter school first and compete with PAF for Top Gun.

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## PakShaheen79

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478681097152208900

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## GiantPanda

alimobin memon said:


> Good Analysis, JF17 is also good just a light fighter. It can fare against Indian air force planes. J10C is overkill against all fighters except Rafale where it might be equal or near equal to it.



The MKI spent its time dodging instead of attacking against PAF F-16s and JF-17s for a reason.

The J-10C also beat the SU-35 at the Golden Helmet exercises. The main competition was the J-16 not the SU-35 (though the SU-35 is often advertized as the ultimate Flanker.)

The J-10C is a medium fighter with the advantages of a smaller size against the heavyweight fighters in the detection and fire first game of BVR but also advantages against the light fighters with more power and load.

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## Signalian

GiantPanda said:


> The J-10A had little problems with the Gripens in the 2017 and 2018 Falcon Strike exercises. The J-10C in 2019 reportedly had a very easy time with the JAS-39. The J-10A and J-10C use Chinese radar and missile exclusively.
> 
> The J-10s, even the A version, can handle the Gripen with relative ease.


You are comparing J-10C with Gripen NG / E ?


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## GiantPanda

Signalian said:


> You are comparing J-10C with Gripen NG / E ?



Thailand used the Gripen C/D in the Falcon Strike exercises. Who actually uses the Gripen NG / E -- Sweden?

No exercise with Euro countries (except Russia) yet.

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## SD 10

Zarvan said:


> #DGISPR just called induction of J-10 C as "nothing special" but a routine matter.
> View attachment 806058
> 
> View attachment 806059


what does that means now?


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## Goritoes

Signalian said:


> How about three-engines ?
> 
> View attachment 806061
> 
> 
> PN should form its Naval Fighter school first and compete with PAF for Top Gun.



That's considered Cheating in the real world.


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## Signalian

GiantPanda said:


> Thailand used the Gripen C/D in the Falcon Strike exercises.


If J-10C was the most advanced version of J-10, then competing with high end version of Gripen (NG/E) should have made more sense to prove J-10s superiority. In any case, Gripen isn't a benchmark for J-10.
Thai AF may buy F-35s rather than going for E's. 


> Who actually uses the Gripen NG / E -- Sweden?


Search Saab's website.


Goritoes said:


> That's considered Cheating in the real world.


Hawww...no fighter jets in space. That's sad.

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## GiantPanda

Signalian said:


> If J-10C was the most advanced version of J-10, then competing with high end version of Gripen (NG/E) should have made more sense to prove J-10s superiority. In any case, Gripen isn't a benchmark for J-10.
> Thai AF may buy F-35s rather than going for E's.
> 
> Search Saab's website.



The Falcon Strike exercises included Gripen C/D, J-11A, J-10A and J-10C. This is data that a PLAAF pilot Li Zhonghua revealed at Northwestern Polytechnical University in 2019 on the Falcon Strike exercises.

Comparison with Gripen E or F-35 or any other fighter would be just conjecture.

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## NA71

DG ISPR basically avoided J10C topic in presser. Neither gave any solid affirmation nor declined the induction ..... This makes Shaikh sb claim little diluted

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## Zarvan

SD 10 said:


> what does that means now?


That means we are going for J-10 C and it's a regular normal thing to do. India bought Rafale and we answered with J-10. Just a regular thing. Or a normal progression nothing very special or out of this world.

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## SIPRA

NA71 said:


> DG ISPR basically avoided J10C topic in presser. Neither gave any solid affirmation nor declined the induction ..... This makes Shaikh sb claim little diluted



May be, he is less informed than Sheikh Sahib.

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## Signalian

GiantPanda said:


> The Falcon Strike exercises included Gripen C/D, J-11A, J-10A and J-10C. This is data that a PLAAF pilot Li Zhonghua revealed at Northwestern Polytechnical University in 2019 on the Falcon Strike exercises.
> 
> Comparison with Gripen E or F-35 or any other fighter would be just conjecture.


Gripen E isn't stealth or 5th gen like F-35, both are different classes. Gripen has come a long way towards NG/E. 
The J-10 in PAF service would be susceptible to undergo upgrades due to technological leaps in avionics and weapon systems. Its yet to be seen if PAF sticks to Chinese systems due to contractual agreements or gets a free hand to experiment with home grown or western systems (e.g. Italian). However, J-10C pitted against latest variants of 4.5 gen aircrafts would have been more concise. A 4.5 gen Vs a 5th gen turns into a different ball game altogether.

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## The Eagle

What DGISPR said in regard to J-10CP acquisition; is the same thing that many of us tried to convince few members here with asking for details/presser/media spotlight and whatever kind of noise. Its just that normal and let's keep the bar high.

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## Signalian

The Eagle said:


> What DGISPR said in regard to J-10CP acquisition; is the same thing that many of us tried to convince few members here with asking for details/presser/media spotlight and whatever kind of noise. Its just that normal and let's keep the bar high.


We are only on the 70th page, please lets take it to 500 pages till end of Jan.

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## The Eagle

Signalian said:


> Gripen E isn't stealth or 5th gen like F-35, both are different classes. Gripen has come a long way towards NG/E.
> The J-10 in PAF service would be susceptible to undergo upgrades due to technological leaps in avionics and weapon systems. Its yet to be seen if PAF sticks to Chinese systems due to contractual agreements or gets a free hand to experiment with home grown or western systems (e.g. Italian). However, J-10C pitted against latest variants of 4.5 gen aircrafts would have been more concise. A 4.5 gen Vs a 5th gen turns into a different ball game altogether.



I don't see any problem to use home grown solution. In-fact, both parties would have been working closely in this regard. Speaking of western system, may not be possible given what J-10C is for China i.e. F-16 Block 60 or 70 for UAE/US. Source Codes and then matting a western system, might cause some doubts of compromise but it depends if PAC can work around with something new. How about Spanish suit on JFT?


Signalian said:


> We are only on the 70th page, please lets take it to 500 pages till end of Jan.



Suggesting to throw more spinners into it? But yes, it should be at-least 500+ to make it interesting.

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## NA71

Signalian said:


> We are only on the 70th page, please lets take it to 500 pages till end of Jan.



Sir. if it is just a normal proceeding ...why are we discussing it in multiple threads? Induction of new platform is normal?

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## GiantPanda

Signalian said:


> Gripen E isn't stealth or 5th gen like F-35, both are different classes. Gripen has come a long way towards NG/E.
> The J-10 in PAF service would be susceptible to undergo upgrades due to technological leaps in avionics and weapon systems. Its yet to be seen if PAF sticks to Chinese systems due to contractual agreements or gets a free hand to experiment with home grown or western systems (e.g. Italian). However, J-10C pitted against latest variants of 4.5 gen aircrafts would have been more concise. A 4.5 gen Vs a 5th gen turns into a different ball game altogether.



The J-10A and J-10C exercised against the Gripen C/D in Thailand. It didn't exercise against Gripen E in Sweden.

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## untitled

NA71 said:


> Sir. if it is just a normal proceeding ...why are we discussing it in multiple threads? Induction of new platform is normal?


Which makes me wonder what qualifies as an abnormal acquistion?

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## serenity

untitled said:


> Which makes me wonder what qualifies as an abnormal acquistion



YF-23P(akistan) acquisition.

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## zeroboy



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## NA71

untitled said:


> Which makes me wonder what qualifies as an abnormal acquistion




The shaikh sb 25 JS-10s Flypast is now a "?"

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## SIPRA

untitled said:


> Which makes me wonder what qualifies as an abnormal acquistion



Clearly, DG (ISPR) has evaded the question, for whatever reason.

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## Ghessan

PakShaheen79 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478681097152208900



yes he said "this is also an exercise in capacity building"

"so it's not an extra ordinary development i would say ..."

and then he said: 
"i really can't confirm anything to you on that account but yes this is a step to upgrade our airforce fleet and get the best possible technology available.... because i know what kind technology is acquired on other side ..."

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## Signalian

The Eagle said:


> I don't see any problem to use home grown solution. In-fact, both parties would have been working closely in this regard. Speaking of western system, may not be possible given what J-10C is for China i.e. F-16 Block 60 or 70 for UAE/US. Source Codes and then matting a western system, might cause some doubts of compromise but it depends if PAC can work around with something new. How about Spanish suit on JFT?
> 
> 
> Suggesting to throw more spinners into it? But yes, it should be at-least 500+ to make it interesting.


Considering that J-10 deal was envisioned in Mushy's era, he would have proudly said," ...Mujhe Khushi hay..." when PAF inducts J-10. 
PAF went for Chinese options for JFT, even when western options were out there. Spain works closely with Dassault on FCAS program. Indra actually turned out from IT into defense domain. Leonardo would still be a good contender for JFT or J-10 upgrades.

Intriguing that JFT and F-16 combo alongwith support from Mirage-V wasn't up to the mark against Rafale that J-10 had to be thrown into the mix, unless J-10 is thought to be a formidable replacement for all types of PAF Mirages and then takes a lead from F-16 Block 52+ in coming years to become PAF's top fighter till some product of Azm comes on surface. Just like JFT squadrons, then J-10 squadrons will start boasting Multi-role (MR) from TA, AS and other different roles. We still haven't seen the face of JFT Blk III, so why would J-10 induction get prioritized over JFT Blk III ? Was such a bold move actually planned from the start. Its been years since we know that Rafale will be inducted in IAF and JFT blk III will be coming out in the same time frame. Then we get a whiff that J-10 is joining PAF's line up.


NA71 said:


> Sir. if it is just a normal proceeding ...why are we discussing it in multiple threads? Induction of new platform is normal?


Bhai, this is PDF and Mods are pretty liberal. Take advantage while you can

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## The Eagle

NA71 said:


> Sir. if it is just a normal proceeding ...why are we discussing it in multiple threads? Induction of new platform is normal?



Normal Proceeding in regard to national debate. We are not India to make it a mountain and spend days like their media does so. It is just Military thing. However, Forum is available and for the same reason to discuss all the way till eternity. However those comments were in regard to members want this news from PAF press conference, DGISPR taking 15 minutes to address, media houses keep talking about, talk shows and what not; is totally like a childish behaviour and on professional. Agar Raphayl hota, is not us.

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## Trango Towers

Why in English?

He isn't saying outright but pretty much saying that we will buy the j10c to maintain balance

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## The Eagle

Signalian said:


> Leonardo



ACM Retd Sohail Aman has done a lot of work with entity. Can't go further honestly, as it may turn out to be so much of boasting.

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## Jinn Baba

No doubts now. Its confirmed! Numbers not being shared though.


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## The Eagle

Signalian said:


> Intriguing that JFT and F-16 combo alongwith support from Mirage-V wasn't up to the mark against Rafale that J-10 had to be thrown into the mix, unless J-10 is thought to be a formidable replacement for all types of PAF Mirages and then takes a lead from F-16 Block 52+ in coming years to become PAF's top fighter till some product of Azm comes on surface. Just like JFT squadrons, then J-10 squadrons will start boasting Multi-role (MR) from TA, AS and other different roles. We still haven't seen the face of JFT Blk III, so why would J-10 induction get prioritized over JFT Blk III ? Was such a bold move actually planned from the start. Its been years since we know that Rafale will be inducted in IAF and JFT blk III will be coming out in the same time frame. Then we get a whiff that J-10 is joining PAF's line up.



It might have to do with package and capability of Air Craft as observed in last couple of exercises. When were talks and finalized; might be too earlier to say ..... at least for me. I will keep that silence or unless the birds arrived actually. What if Block-III is going to be a real SEAD/DEAD? May be J-10 planning isn't new rather, PAF awaited to see its capability and found it more than expected.


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## Inception-06

Signalian said:


> Gripen E isn't stealth or 5th gen like F-35, both are different classes. Gripen has come a long way towards NG/E.
> The J-10 in PAF service would be susceptible to undergo upgrades due to technological leaps in avionics and weapon systems. Its yet to be seen if PAF sticks to Chinese systems due to contractual agreements or gets a free hand to experiment with home grown or western systems (e.g. Italian). However, J-10C pitted against latest variants of 4.5 gen aircrafts would have been more concise. A 4.5 gen Vs a 5th gen turns into a different ball game altogether.



How can be there a option of western packages if even the the Jf-17 couldn’t get anything relevant from the western nations.


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## The Eagle

zeroboy said:


>



It is not necessary to create a new thread since topic already exists.



Trango Towers said:


> Why in English?


 Ethics. As the question was in English and there are international journalists as well.

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## Trailer23

maverick1977 said:


> Pakistan will get good experience planning for S400 during Turk Pakistan air force exercies.


China too. They've got the S-400 as well.


denel said:


> Lavi was a direct competitor to F-16 which was then terminated because of american pressure from *LM* and Isreali govt corruption.


You mean General Dynamics. Lavi was Cancelled in the late 80's & LM got the F-16 from GD in 1994, I believe.


Zarvan said:


> Dual Seater has only chance if India goes for F 18 BLOCK III. Then either J 16 or J 15 or SU 35 can come


There is higher chances of getting the Pope to take a P!ss Test than India landing F-18's - this late in the game. They've already set their mind on the Rafales for Naval Role.

One advantage India has had over Pakistan is that they've had decades of understanding the US & their End-User Agreements. I doubt they will ever go for any combat-related inventory. As much as the US is trying to woo India because of their Economy & counter China, there are voices coming out against India at Capitol Hill. Modi's recent trip wasn't as successful as his previous one. Both Biden & Kamela didi made statements which weren't well received.

C-17, C-130's, Chinooks, P-8 etc. is as far as they'll go and it might be the closest thing to Military equipment they'd get from US, but beyond that - they'll seek Russia or presently, Europe/France.

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## Trango Towers

The Eagle said:


> It is not necessary to create a new thread since topic already exists.
> 
> 
> Ethics. As the question was in English and there are international journalists as well.


When we are in England do they change the language for us? My point was we should be proud of urdu and speak in urdu. If that puts international media at a disadvantage so be it. They are not our friends anyways

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## Pakistan Space Agency

The Eagle said:


> Normal Proceeding in regard to national debate. We are not India to make it a mountain and spend days like their media does so. It is just Military thing. However, Forum is available and for the same reason to discuss all the way till eternity. However those comments were in regard to members want this news from PAF press conference, DGISPR taking 15 minutes to address, media houses keep talking about, talk shows and what not; is totally like a childish behaviour and on professional. Agar Raphayl hota, is not us.


All I wanted to hear from the DG ISPR was, "Yes, we have purchased the J-10 aircraft from China and it will be arriving in Pakistan this year."

Doesn't matter whether it's 1 or 25 aircraft. The gentleman just needed to confirm with a, "Yes" and I would've been relieved.

Instead he was saying, we are evaluating, we monitor what the enemy acquires, we are working on indigenous programs, we will enhance capacity, we are taking necessary steps.

This tension and uncertainty not knowing whether the production of JF-17 Thunders for PAF has now been or will be capped due to J-10s is not helpful.


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## untitled

Trango Towers said:


> When we are in England do they change the language for us?


English is one of Pakistan's official languages and the language of this very forum

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## The Eagle

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> All I wanted to hear from the DG ISPR was, "Yes, we have purchased the J-10 aircraft from China and it will be arriving in Pakistan this year."
> 
> Doesn't matter whether it's 1 or 25 aircraft. The gentleman just needed to confirm with a, "Yes" and I would've been relieved.
> 
> Instead he was saying, we are evaluating, we monitor what the enemy acquires, we are working on indigenous programs, we will enhance capacity, we are taking necessary steps.
> 
> This tension and uncertainty not knowing whether the production of JF-17 Thunders for PAF has now been or will be capped due to J-10s is not helpful.



I don't think that it matters that much to update civvies on everything. And also, it is not related in any means whether Thunder is or will be capped. For all your such kind of questions; you will have to keep reading and see how the developments come forward. You can't get everything on platter my friend. Stay tuned and keep reading.

Whatever he says, was due to the SOPs and norms of secrecy that yet need to be maintained for internal reasons. What do you think that he wasn't sure of anything or nothing? But there are means & reasons as what to be told and how few things should kept for later.


Trango Towers said:


> When we are in England do they change the language for us? My point was we should be proud of urdu and speak in urdu. If that puts international media at a disadvantage so be it. They are not our friends anyways



تنقید برائے تنقید


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## JawadKKhan

ISPR response to the question is exactly as expected. No boosting, no drum beating.. The politicians like Shiekh Rasheed unnecessarily hyped it, also mentioning Rafale was totally unnecessary. 

So ISPR is just telling the nation, its just another acquisition, its not extra ordinary in magnitude. Having already block 52s and block IIIs the J-10s will further add to our strength. We have had various extra ordinary defence projects which had much more impact in the past like. For-example, the first time Pakistan conducted test of IRBM test in 1998. Gave us the reach and capability that was completely absent before. The cruise missile technology was another capability addition, The JF-project was extra ordinary at time when there were sanctions and none of PAF aircrafts had BVR capability. The AEW&Cs provided massive capabilities.. It doesn't mean J-10C is ordinary aircraft. Its 4++ with AESA / great payloads / performances and is another step to boost our already in place capabilities and will further supplement the advance fleet of PAF F-16 block 52's and upcoming JF block IIIs. 

I think the event got extra hype because of statements as in response to Rafale. In reality, in a full scale war, no one can manage 100% which aircrafts will be facing off which ones. At times the JF-17s could be facing Rafales, at times our Block 52s will be feasting upon mig-29s, or J-10s could face other older platforms of IAF. So adding another platform is not specifically to counter only 1 platform of opponent. It always add overall capabilities to the force.

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## SIPRA

JawadKKhan said:


> ISPR response to the question is exactly as expected. No boosting, no drum beating.. The politicians like Shiekh Rasheed unnecessarily hyped it, also mentioning Rafale was totally unnecessary.



We don't know, whether "Sheeda Tully" did it, on his own, or was instructed to do so.


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## Longhorn

Zarvan said:


> #DGISPR just called induction of J-10 C as "nothing special" but a routine matter.
> View attachment 806058
> 
> View attachment 806059


Is that tantamount to official confirmation?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

J-10CE news just confirmed by Alan Warnes. It looks like the PAF will start talking about it soon.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478608630975025152
@SQ8 @JamD @kursed

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## Zarvan

Longhorn said:


> Is that tantamount to official confirmation?


Yes you can call it that. Although as it's PAF matter he was trying to avoid to answer the question but it's confirmation.

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## Deltadart

SIPRA said:


> May be, he is less informed than Sheikh Sahib.


I have always felt that DG ISPR should be a civilian employee of the defense dept. A person well versed in the science of PR and knows the value of the social media etc.
It is a terrible waste of military resources to have a person of a rank of Maj gen to be doing pr for the armed forces. Let him lead the troops, that's what he is trained to do. Besides this present ispr spokesperson is a dud.


untitled said:


> Which makes me wonder what qualifies as an abnormal acquistion?


The one where kickbacks are involved. Hope it helps.

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## Falcon26

Deltadart said:


> I have always felt that DG ISPR should be a civilian employee of the defense dept. A person well versed in the science of PR and knows the value of the social media etc.
> It is a terrible waste of military resources to have a person of a rank of Maj gen to be doing pr for the armed forces. Let him lead the troops, that's what he is trained to do. Besides this present ispr spokesperson is a dud.
> 
> The one where kickbacks are involved. Hope it helps.



Strangely, after operation Swift Retort, the Indians were complaining that they needed a DG ISPR level position for information dissemination and control. They felt that such a role was important in projecting single narratives around the war.

I see the merits of a civilian control over the DG ISPR, but I also think it should be left to the military to tell their story. Unless the fundamental military-civil divide in Pakistan is resolved, it is meaningless to attempt such a pivot. In fact, even after this military-civil divide is addressed, the position of DG ISPR should remain with the military. My only concern is that the DG ISPR, just like the ISI and the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, has turned into an army domain where the navy and Air Force have no say. Due to the evolving nature of the modern war, I think the Air Force and navy should be given their due respect. The era of vast armies rolling into enemy territory are over. Today it is about air and naval projections.

Pakistan’s understanding of the military hierarchy should also evolve. In fact, such an evolution will go a long way in resolving the military-civil divide itself, and probably help create a more professional, depoliticized and result oriented army instead of the current DHA land grabbing mafia and egotistical overlords they have now turned into.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Is Alan Warnes imagining this or has he seen it already?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478608630975025152


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## Kraetoz

Haaretz published an article about J10C being Israeli technology based on their Lavi combat aircraft which was scrapped under American pressure in mid 1980s.

Does anyone else here know more details?

Article reference: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ha...d-on-scrapped-israeli-lavi-fighter-1.10510613


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## Zapper

Zarvan said:


> He is suggesting for Naval role. Until and Unless Russia has agreed to put AESA radar in SU 35 along with other features, not happening. Also our induction of twin seater jet for Navy would be purely based on whether Indian Navy chooses F-18 BLOCK III or not. If they do then either J-15 or SU-35 if Russia agrees to put AESA can't be ruled out.


Putting a Russian AESA in the Su-35 shouldn't be a big deal but I believe the the major learning curve and possible hinderances would be the induction of a twin engined fighter, developing new doctrines around it and the whole saga of maintenance, spares, logistics, training of pilots & ground crew etc, affordability being expensive and ensuring availability as everyone is aware of the availability rates for Russian hardware

Even for the MKI, we were only able to bring it up after we started producing many of those spares locally. As for IN opting the F-18, that's an unlikely possibility and is all speculation since we're well aware of the issues pak or turks have faced if we're not in the good graces of Uncle Sam. IAF infact received some of the most extremely favorable terms for F-16s' localized production but it was still a no-go. IN is satisfied with the current Mig-29Ks' for now and until MoD approves a 3rd carrier, they're unlikely to push for another fighter and wait for the TEDBF. Even if they do, Rafale-M has a better chance to maintain commonality and uniformity with IAF with the later potentially ordering another 36 Rafales

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## Deltadart

Falcon26 said:


> Strangely, after operation Swift Retort, the Indians were complaining that they needed a DG ISPR level position for information dissemination and control. They felt that such a role was important in projecting single narratives around the war.
> 
> I see the merits of a civilian control over the DG ISPR, but I also think it should be left to the military to tell their story. Unless the fundamental military-civil divide in Pakistan is resolved, it is meaningless to attempt such a pivot. In fact, even after this military-civil divide is addressed, the position of DG ISPR should remain with the military. My only concern is that the DG ISPR, just like the ISI and the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, has turned into an army domain where the navy and Air Force have no say. Due to the evolving nature of the modern war, I think the Air Force and navy should be given their due respect. The era of vast armies rolling into enemy territory are over. Today it is about air and naval projections.
> 
> Pakistan’s understanding of the military hierarchy should also evolve. In fact, such an evolution will go a long way in resolving the military-civil divide itself, and probably help create a more professional, depoliticized and result oriented army instead of the current DHA land grabbing mafia and egotistical overlords they have now turned into.


You raise valid points. Just like the cjcsc post automatically goes to the army. It needs to be made rotational. The ispr spokesperson should be a junior officer. A maj gen should have better things to do than to address the news media.


Kraetoz said:


> Haaretz published an article about J10C being Israeli technology based on their Lavi combat aircraft which was scrapped under American pressure in mid 1980s.
> 
> Does anyone else here know more details?
> 
> Article reference: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ha...d-on-scrapped-israeli-lavi-fighter-1.10510613


Zionists got a lot of nerve calling it their technology. It was US funded project, in collaboration with US firms. US shut it down because it was US tax payer money illegally being used to create a competitor to the US fighters. China has taken the basic design a lot further and with improvements to hardware etc. It is not a lavi anymore.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Deltadart said:


> I have always felt that DG ISPR should be a civilian employee of the defense dept. A person well versed in the science of PR and knows the value of the social media etc.
> It is a terrible waste of military resources to have a person of a rank of Maj gen to be doing pr for the armed forces. Let him lead the troops, that's what he is trained to do. Besides this present ispr spokesperson is a dud.
> 
> The one where kickbacks are involved. Hope it helps.





Falcon26 said:


> Strangely, after operation Swift Retort, the Indians were complaining that they needed a DG ISPR level position for information dissemination and control. They felt that such a role was important in projecting single narratives around the war.
> 
> I see the merits of a civilian control over the DG ISPR, but I also think it should be left to the military to tell their story. Unless the fundamental military-civil divide in Pakistan is resolved, it is meaningless to attempt such a pivot. In fact, even after this military-civil divide is addressed, the position of DG ISPR should remain with the military. My only concern is that the DG ISPR, just like the ISI and the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, has turned into an army domain where the navy and Air Force have no say. Due to the evolving nature of the modern war, I think the Air Force and navy should be given their due respect. The era of vast armies rolling into enemy territory are over. Today it is about air and naval projections.
> 
> Pakistan’s understanding of the military hierarchy should also evolve. In fact, such an evolution will go a long way in resolving the military-civil divide itself, and probably help create a more professional, depoliticized and result oriented army instead of the current DHA land grabbing mafia and egotistical overlords they have now turned into.


I think PR should go under the office of the CJCSC who, in turn, builds a team of Short Service COs who come from marketing, PR, design, etc backgrounds. These guys (or gals) can be the ISPR of all three service arms. They'd work directly work with the CJCSC for information control, but maybe get a budget to develop PR material (like documentaries, video or photo assets for the news media, Hilal, etc).

I would even offer promotions to these COs if learn a key foreign language like French, Dutch, Russian, Mandarin, Arabic, Hebrew etc. This way, the ISPR can get its message out directly to international news media, perhaps even answer questions or offer statements directly in the languages of those outlets. Once these COs are done with ISPR, I'm sure the Foreign Ministry and intelligence departments would find these multi-lingual professionals useful. From there, set these people up for professor or teaching posts in Western universities so that they convey Pak's narrative to the next generation of American, British, French, etc political science and business students.

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## SQ8

Signalian said:


> How about three-engines ?
> 
> View attachment 806061
> 
> 
> PN should form its Naval Fighter school first and compete with PAF for Top Gun.


Sorry - there can only be one turbokat and the PAF will never tolerate independent thinking pilots/engineers like T-bone & razor

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## Shotgunner51

Kraetoz said:


> Haaretz published an article about J10C being Israeli technology based on their Lavi combat aircraft which was scrapped under American pressure in mid 1980s.
> 
> Does anyone else here know more details?
> 
> Article reference: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ha...d-on-scrapped-israeli-lavi-fighter-1.10510613


That's pure western BS as usual, not a single screw from so-called Israeli "tech" not even the design. J-10's predecessor is J-9, which was CAC's bid for PLAAF's next gen fighter during *late 1960's *(the bid was later won by opponent J-8 of SAC). There are several variants of J-9, including one with air intake under fuselage like J-10. Look at the timeline, J-9 appeared way before Lavi even hit the drawing board, who is copying whom? Did Chinese time travel back to the future and "copy", or the other way round?






J-9 variant VI-II

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Shotgunner51 said:


> That's pure western BS, not a single screw from so-called Israel "tech" not even the design. J-10's predecessor is J-9, which was CAC's bid for PLAAF's next gen fighter during late 1960's (the bid was later won by opponent J-8 of SAC). There are several variants of J-9, including one with air intake under fuselage like J-10. J-9 appeared way before Lavi even hit the drawing board, who is copy whom?
> 
> View attachment 806127
> 
> J-9 variant VI-II


Folks have a poor habit of drawing parallels between similar Eastern and Western designs. If the J-10 was dual-engine, folks would say, "oh, the Chinese must have stolen plans of the Typhoon" or "France helped China." IMO it's a trait of politicians and media talking heads, but real analysts know that the J-10 is an original program.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Folks have a poor habit of drawing parallels between similar Eastern and Western designs. If the J-10 was dual-engine, folks would say, "oh, the Chinese must have stolen plans of the Typhoon" or "France helped China." IMO it's a trait of politicians and media talking heads, but real analysts know that the J-10 is an original program.


That being said - certain fuselage sections of a written off F-16 from some country did end up in China.

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## Aesterix

Zarvan said:


> #DGISPR just called induction of J-10 C as "nothing special" but a routine matter.
> View attachment 806058
> 
> View attachment 806059


Post a link to the video please


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## Shotgunner51

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Folks have a poor habit of drawing parallels between similar Eastern and Western designs. If the J-10 was dual-engine, folks would say, "oh, the Chinese must have stolen plans of the Typhoon" or "France helped China." IMO it's a trait of politicians and media talking heads, but real analysts know that the J-10 is an original program.


West always will behave as west.

In fact delta canard (close-coupled canard) was already flying on J-9 prototype in late 1960's when Typhoon or Rafale didn't even exist, wonder why the west never mention this? But that's also the major reason why it failed PLAAF's bid. PLAAF was not convinced that supply chain can support this at-the-time too futuristic or "aggressive" aerodynamic design, say flight control, advanced materials, hi-thrust engine (single hi-thrust) etc., hence went to a safer bet aka SAC J-8 which employs conventional areodynamic and twin medium-thrust.

With supply chain getting advanced/matured nowadays, successor of J-9 (aka J-10) ultimately become the primary of medium multi-role in PLAAF, while the outgoing J-8 (variant F) are all repurposed as hi-speed recon jets.

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## Aesterix

SQ8 said:


> That being said - certain fuselage sections of a written off F-16 from some country did end up in China.


I wonder which country was that. Gabon I guess? 😏

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## Trailer23

Zapper said:


> Even for the MKI, we were only able to bring it up after we started producing many of those spares locally. As for IN opting the F-18, that's an unlikely possibility and is all speculation since we're well aware of the issues pak or turks have faced if we're not in the good graces of Uncle Sam


I more or less said the exact same earlier today...


Trailer23 said:


> There is higher chances of getting the Pope to take a P!ss Test than India landing F-18's - this late in the game. They've already set their mind on the Rafales for Naval Role.
> 
> *One advantage India has had over Pakistan is that they've had decades of understanding the US & their End-User Agreements. I doubt they will ever go for any combat-related inventory. As much as the US is trying to woo India because of their Economy & counter China, there are voices coming out against India at Capitol Hill.* Modi's recent trip wasn't as successful as his previous one. Both Biden & Kamela didi made statements which weren't well received.
> 
> C-17, C-130's, Chinooks, P-8 etc. is as far as they'll go and it might be the closest thing to Military equipment they'd get from US, but beyond that - they'll seek Russia or presently, Europe/France.


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## Goenitz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I would even offer promotions to these COs if learn a key foreign language like French, Dutch, Russian, Mandarin, Arabic, Hebrew etc.


Arabic is mos important in that case to put our influence in public. However, there should be a dedicated department for languages in that. ISPR should focus its main thing which is narrative. Let the technical things be outsourced.

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## Taimoor Khan

SQ8 said:


> That being said - certain fuselage sections of a written off F-16 from some country did end up in China.



Was about to write the same. That certain country got in a lot of trouble because of that.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Taimoor Khan said:


> Was about to write the same. That certain country got in a lot of trouble because of that.


What did that certain country get in return from China... other than trouble from the US?


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## Salza

Ispr has never announced Navy and PAF procurements in the past as well. Correct me if I am wrong. Spokesperson is not authorized to give clear cut confirmation though in his press conference, he very much said yes to J10s.

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## Aesterix

Taimoor Khan said:


> Was about to write the same. That certain country got in a lot of trouble because of that.


Yes, 
Try weibo and see the Chinese bragging about how rich they are and how they are "Giving out J-10c " to a bigger Pakistan. 
Whatever happened to Chinese young generation.


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## Taimoor Khan

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> What did that certain country get in return from China... other than trouble from the US?




I guess, long term strategic investment? Short term pains for long term gains?

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## Shotgunner51

SQ8 said:


> That being said - certain fuselage sections of a written off F-16 from some country did end up in China.


So the Lavi script didn't work out and we can try F-16, not a bad idea

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## SQ8

Shotgunner51 said:


> So the Lavi script didn't work out and we can try F-16, not a bad idea


This script has eyewitnesses that includes 1 former PLAAF General. And it goes beyond F-16s but that is a really unethical if funny story on how much US hardware was sent to China.

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## Shotgunner51

SQ8 said:


> This script has eyewitnesses that includes 1 former PLAAF General. And it goes beyond F-16s but that is a really unethical if funny story on how much US hardware was sent to China.


I didn't say it didn't happen, I was saying this helps to change the big lie of "J-10 = Lavi copy" into "J-10 = F-16 copy", isn't that what you're implying?

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## SQ8

Shotgunner51 said:


> I didn't say it didn't happen, I was saying this helps to change the big lie of "J-10 = Lavi copy" into "J-10 = F-16 copy", more convincing right?


I didn’t say it was a copy - however taking design elements such as airframe, hud design, systems and so on into the J-10 would make logical sense. If it helped solve problems which the design team was facing then why not?
There is some truth to the Lavi to J-10 story but it isn’t the “copy” aspect. There were design notes exchanged which did result in the strong resemblance. It is the same as saying the JF-17 is the mig-33 which it isn’t but design notes were brought in. The F-7G cranked delta began its life as a rough sketch by a Grumman engineer for the super-7 project.

A copy is the PL-8 missile straight from the Python-3 with little changes initially.

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## Zapper

Trailer23 said:


> I more or less said the exact same earlier today...


In addition to what I mentioned, MoD allocating budget for a 3rd carrier plays a crucial factor which will make IN consider F-18s for equipping the carrier with EMALS. As of now, IN & MoD made the call to redirect that budget for building submarines instead. There are some recent reports that MoD is considering another carrier but nothing concrete yet and even if it does, the naval design bureau should start something new altogether like a 65k+ ton carrier which'll take considerably longer for the design review and then the fact of selecting an entirely new fighter. Though IN is significantly better than the other two arms when it comes to selection, negotiations and closing the deals...it'll still take a ton of time. I'd rather want IN to focus and allocate resources/funds to TEDBF over opting any foreign fighter


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## SQ8

Zapper said:


> In addition to what I mentioned, MoD allocating budget for a 3rd carrier plays a crucial factor which will make IN consider F-18s for equipping the carrier with EMALS. As of now, IN & MoD made the call to redirect that budget for building submarines instead. There are some recent reports that MoD is considering another carrier but nothing concrete yet and even if it does, the naval design bureau should start something new altogether like a 65k+ ton carrier which'll take considerably longer for the design review and then the fact of selecting an entirely new fighter. Though IN is significantly better than the other two arms when it comes to selection, negotiations and closing the deals...it'll still take a ton of time. I'd rather want IN to focus and allocate resources/funds to TEDBF over opting any foreign fighter


Eventually those Ks will become a burden - the In is better placed to focus on a F-18/ TEDBF mix. 
there is inherent knowledge in the GE-404 platform that the HAL/IAF is familiar with and would reduce the maturity curve climb.

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## Shotgunner51

SQ8 said:


> I didn’t say it was a copy - however taking design elements such as airframe, hud design, systems and so on into the J-10 would make logical sense. If it helped solve problems which the design team was facing then why not?
> There is some truth to the Lavi to J-10 story but it isn’t the “copy” aspect. There were design notes exchanged which did result in the strong resemblance. It is the same as saying the JF-17 is the mig-33 which it isn’t but design notes were brought in. The F-7G cranked delta began its life as a rough sketch by a Grumman engineer for the super-7 project.
> 
> A copy is the PL-8 missile straight from the Python-3 with little changes initially.


True, unless relationship is completely hostile exchanging design notes is common in the business world especially when sensitive data are not involved, designers in the west do compare notes with western counterparts don't they? I'm sure no westerners will not describe that as "copying". On topic CAC designer started J-9 (predecessor of J-10) with delta canard design (one variant with under-fuselage air take like F-16 which first flew in 1974), even put up with prototypes in *late 1960's*, way before Lavi or Rafale of Tyhoon hit the drawing board, but like you have mentioned I guess CAC also welcome exchanging design notes with foreign designers especially those interested in delta canard design.

A copy is the B-2 jet which steals the shape of Nazi Ho299. PL-8 was exactly Python-3 knockdown kits (CKD production) shipped from Israel then assembled in China under a PLAAF code, what "copy" let alone "little changes"? After the 1st batch done then began the import replacement process until 100% components come from domestic supply chain.

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## denel

Deltadart said:


> You raise valid points. Just like the cjcsc post automatically goes to the army. It needs to be made rotational. The ispr spokesperson should be a junior officer. A maj gen should have better things to do than to address the news media.
> 
> Zionists got a lot of nerve calling it their technology. It was US funded project, in collaboration with US firms. US shut it down because it was US tax payer money illegally being used to create a competitor to the US fighters. China has taken the basic design a lot further and with improvements to hardware etc. It is not a lavi anymore.


Isreali engineers did a lot of work on Lavi themselves; funding was a lot from the proxies in US to get the funding. There was deeper collaboration with Atlas in SA at the same time; the wind tunnel tests were done here at Altas and early models were put here. Lavi blueprints form the basis of J10; it definitely did evolve from that point to suit the local requirement and constraints placed in terms of materials available to build J10 overall.
To say this was from J9 is a folly; the best fighter at the time they would put together was J8 from which J9 was evolving. To leap forward into a highly complex design such as J10; Lavi knowledge transfer was pivitol.

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## Zapper

SQ8 said:


> F-18/ TEDBF mix


A mix will further complicate the already strained logistics...not to mention the nightmare of training, setup new facilities & accommodations, stretched budgets and the complexity of operating multiple platforms from various countries and integrating them


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## SQ8

Zapper said:


> A mix will further complicate the already strained logistics...not to mention the nightmare of training, setup new facilities & accommodations, stretched budgets and the complexity of operating multiple platforms from various countries and integrating them


Its either that or the Rafale since the platform diversity has actually shown its handicap from an operational standpoint.

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## PakShaheen79

Ghessan said:


> yes he said "this is also an exercise in capacity building"
> 
> "so it's not an extra ordinary development i would say ..."
> 
> and then he said:
> "i really can't confirm anything to you on that account but yes this is a step to upgrade our airforce fleet and get the best possible technology available.... because i know what kind technology is acquired on other side ..."


He didn't confirm the number when a journalist asked if the news of 25 J-10C flypass on 23rd March is true.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## The Terminator

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The idea that Russia could quietly sell those recently manufactured Su-35s to Pakistan and tell the US they're just PLAAF J-16s on exercise is, without doubt, the best theory that will never come true.
> 
> I'm just laying it out here for the YouTubers to eat up.
> 
> Come pidgies. Eat. And tell @Deino what you've heard.
> 
> View attachment 805983
> 
> 
> 
> @kursed @JamD @SQ8


Russian Su35 fuselage and engine + Chinese electronics, avionics rebranded as J-16CP 

I know but it's highly unlikely.


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## applesauce

Aesterix said:


> Yes,
> Try weibo and see the Chinese bragging about how rich they are and how they are "Giving out J-10c " to a bigger Pakistan.
> Whatever happened to Chinese young generation.



you're basing your info off of random posts on the internet? 

or are you claiming that in every other country on earth, there are no trolls on the internet?

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## MH.Yang

Aesterix said:


> Yes,
> Try weibo and see the Chinese bragging about how rich they are and how they are "Giving out J-10c " to a bigger Pakistan.
> Whatever happened to Chinese young generation.



It is more like arrogant Americans than Chinese.
Can you show me the weibo link?

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## Zarvan

Salza said:


> Ispr has never announced Navy and PAF procurements in the past as well. Correct me if I am wrong. Spokesperson is not authorized to give clear cut confirmation though in his press conference, he very much said yes to J10s.


He was trying his best to avoid the answer but news is already out so couldn't avoid it fully


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## mudas777

JawadKKhan said:


> Wrong!. Military deals / agreements take long time. So you can't be sure of that. The 08 submarine deals was signed in 2016. The first 2 Type 54 A/Ps were signed in 2017.
> 
> It happens all the time, many military deals were signed up in Musharaf's time but they were received during PPP time.
> 
> 
> Actually you never know. PAF is getting J-10Cs that for sure. But the air-show could be done by the chinese aerobatic team as seen in the screenshot.



Even Chinese aerobatic team showed up with J10 as long as the planes carry the Pakistani flags that will be enough for the Indians laundry bill going up. 
Just imagine if J20 makes a special appearance for the 23 March probably that may cause flood in the Ganges. .

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## luciferdd

SQ8 said:


> I didn’t say it was a copy - however taking design elements such as airframe, hud design, systems and so on into the J-10 would make logical sense. If it helped solve problems which the design team was facing then why not?
> There is some truth to the Lavi to J-10 story but it isn’t the “copy” aspect. There were design notes exchanged which did result in the strong resemblance. It is the same as saying the JF-17 is the mig-33 which it isn’t but design notes were brought in. The F-7G cranked delta began its life as a rough sketch by a Grumman engineer for the super-7 project.
> 
> A copy is the PL-8 missile straight from the Python-3 with little changes initially.


You are wrong again,in the early many techs and equipments on J-10A were came from Europe especially from France,even you can say that it is of European descent but it's nothing about the US.


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## Thorough Pro

if the journalist is from an English newspaper, he would ask the questions in English. Why do you post in English on this form?



Trango Towers said:


> When we are in England do they change the language for us? My point was we should be proud of urdu and speak in urdu. If that puts international media at a disadvantage so be it. They are not our friends anyways

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## SQ8

luciferdd said:


> You are wrong again,in the early many techs and equipments on J-10A were came from Europe especially from France,even you can say that it is of European descent but it's nothing about the US.


Ok - Ill be wrong and the F-16 fuselage section that came to China from some operator never came. Unless your English is not good so you think it came directly from the US

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## luciferdd

SQ8 said:


> Ok - Ill be wrong and the F-16 fuselage section that came to China from some operator never came. Unless your English is not good so you think it came directly from the US


F-16 fuselage section means nothing,Hundreds F-16 had been crash at the past 40 years i don't think anyone had been R&D a jet base these fuselage sections.don't you know the us wants to export their F-16 with old J79 to China at 1980s,but China refused it.Canard delta wing J-10 is totally different from F-16.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The subject of Lavi was of serious discussion in the US congress many a decades ago.
> 
> Israel was severly reprimanded for that.


So, I made a point about people calling the J-10 a copy of the Lavi, and you attack me for it with an incredibly vague and general point about Israel helping China. The two are very different points. Could Israel have helped China with flight control technology? Possibly. But is the J-10 a copy of the Lavi just because it follows a similar design configuration or because Israel may have helped with some inputs? No. 

Anyways...

I noticed you have this habit of attacking someone, but without bringing a relevant argument to the point made.

Why do you do that? It's an honest question.

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## SaadH

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is an absolutely pathetic and pi-ss poor post from you.
> 
> The subject of Lavi was of serious discussion in the US congress many a decades ago.
> 
> *Israel was severly reprimanded for that.*


Now that's a bit dramatic, were they sanctioned or their military and financial support suspended?

Why are people giving Israelis a pass here on Lavi, which in itself was based on F-16's, with only the horizontal stabilizers moving into the canard positions and the rest of the aircraft from intakes to nose to canopy to vertical stabilizer bearing strong resemblance to F-16.

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## ejaz007

*Pakistan confirms Chinese ‘Firebird’ fighter acquisition*
By Usman Ansari
Monday, Jan 3





Four Chengdu J-10 fighter jets of China's Bayi flight demonstration team perform at a media preview of the Singapore Airshow on Feb. 9, 2020. (Mike Yeo/Staff)
ISLAMABAD — Pakistan has officially confirmed its long-speculated acquisition of the Chinese J-10C Firebird fighter jet, which is slated to arrive in time to take part in the March 23 Pakistan Day Parade.
Rasheed Ahmed, Pakistan’s interior minister, told the media last week the country acquired 25 aircraft. He linked them as a counter to India’s growing Rafale fleet.

He did not detail the value of the deal, and a source familiar with Pakistan’s military acquisition programs said he does not know if the fighters were “purchased or loaned to Pakistan’s Air Force.”
However, the source said, he is “more inclined to the latter, as [the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force] may have given a few units to the Pakistan Air Force to test on a delayed cost basis.”
Richard Fisher, a senior fellow at the International Assessment and Strategy Center, told Defense News there “is imagery suggesting that finished J-10Cs at the Chengdu factory are ready for near-immediate transfer,” referring to a manufacturing location in China.

Pakistan’s interest in the J-10 spans more than 10 years. The country was first interested in the FC-20 export variant of the single-seat J-10A. This was part of the wider Armed Forces Development Plan 2015, derailed by a lack of funding under the 2008-2013 Pakistan Peoples Party administration.
Pakistan’s interest in the FC-20 was partially driven by a need to complement its F-16, when further acquisition of that program appeared unlikely.
Pakistan also reportedly examined acquiring the Russian Su-35 Flanker-E, potentially to help better cover naval operations in the Arabian Sea.
When speculation first arose of a Pakistani J-10C purchase in early 2021, it was linked with one of the Pakistan Air Force squadrons based in Karachi.

China’s naval air arm, the PLANAF, operates the earlier J-10AH and J-10SH Firebird variants from shore as multirole aircraft. Though unconfirmed, Pakistan may operate its aircraft similarly.
Pakistan’s Firebirds are believed to be the J-10CE export variant of the latest J-10C, featuring an active electronically scanned array radar and long-range PL-15 air-to-air missiles. Twenty-five aircraft could equip two squadrons of 12 aircraft each.
Royal United Services Institute airspace analyst Justin Bronk said the J-10C will significantly boost Pakistan’s air power.
“The J-10C is a potent modern multirole light fighter, which represents a rough Chinese equivalent to a modern F-16 Block 60/70,″ he said.

However, he noted, it’s not quite on a par with the Rafale.
“The AESA radar and access to the long-ranged PL-15 air-to-air missile make it a potentially serious long-range threat to non-stealth aircraft, although it might still struggle as a counter to India’s Rafale at long ranges. The latter’s superior kinematic performance and access to the Meteor missile [provide] a decent counter to the PL-15,″ Bronk said. “The J-10C is also unlikely to be able to match the Rafale for electronic warfare capabilities.”









Pakistan confirms Chinese ‘Firebird’ fighter acquisition


Pakistan has officially confirmed its long-speculated acquisition of the Chinese J-10C “Firebird” fighter, which will arrive in time to take part in the March 23 Pakistan Day parade.




www.defensenews.com

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## Abid123

Is the SU-35 rumour true?


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## The Terminator

SIPRA said:


> May be, he is less informed than Sheikh Sahib.


Or may be he is a lot more tight lipped due to sensitive nature of his job unlike the pindi boy. 

Like some Pakistani members here knew the induction of VT-4 all along but never told us for sure, but the Chinese people get the news earlier because Chinese Govt announced it's exports

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## The Terminator

untitled said:


> Which makes me wonder what qualifies as an abnormal acquistion?


All the military acquisitions should tend to be well calculated and logical. 

Any abnormal acquisition may be comprise of the combinations of the factors given below but not limited to these terms only:

Like an illogical purchase like inducting F104 today would be abnormal.

Acquisition pursuing a wrong, failed doctrine.

System being commissioned isn't thoroughly tested against similar systems available in the market would be abnormal.

The acquisition of a weapon system which doesn't fulfill the requirements and role it is being inducted for, may possibly be due to a biased/financially corrupt decision etc.

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## The Terminator

zeroboy said:


>


J-10C question well left by the DG ISPR. He talked a lot but he left the question unanswered for the news reporters. 

But if you read the message in between the lines then we might have a huge news/rumor at our disposal. 

DG ISPR 1st talked about the indigenization policy then said I can't confirm but "YES" we are upgrading to new technologies and acquisition as per the threat assessment. One may speculate from it that not only J-10C are coming, they are coming with some form of ToT for that upgrading indigenous tech too. Lol 


Ghessan said:


> yes he said "this is also an exercise in capacity building"
> 
> "so it's not an extra ordinary development i would say ..."
> 
> and then he said:
> "i really can't confirm anything to you on that account but yes this is a step to upgrade our airforce fleet and get the best possible technology available.... because i know what kind technology is acquired on other side ..."


Exactly

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## Aesterix

Abid123 said:


> Is the SU-35 rumour true?


Yes , I got a Honda Accord and my other ride is an SU 35.
Don't be jealous.

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## Salza

This is an important year in our history as we mark platinum jubliee celebrations of Pakistani independence so we should also expect bigger official ceremonies on March 23rd, August 14 etc. When you do a bit grand function(s) than you also have to incorporate bigger items as main highlights of the show. March 23rd parade will be ideal ceremony to launch block3s, J10s and possibly Z10MEs.

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## JawadKKhan

Abid123 said:


> Is the SU-35 rumour true?



Not at all!. Different types of different origin becomes a nightmare to keep the fleet operational. Unless the force has unlimited budget.

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## Rafi

PAF believes the AESA Radar with the PL10 and PL15 on the J10 have basically given them an advantage to the indian air force, including Raphael.

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## Goritoes

Rafi said:


> PAF believes the AESA Radar with the PL10 and PL15 on the J10 have basically given them an advantage to the indian air force, including Raphael.



No Nuff said this time ?

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## araz

denel said:


> Isreali engineers did a lot of work on Lavi themselves; funding was a lot from the proxies in US to get the funding. There was deeper collaboration with Atlas in SA at the same time; the wind tunnel tests were done here at Altas and early models were put here. Lavi blueprints form the basis of J10; it definitely did evolve from that point to suit the local requirement and constraints placed in terms of materials available to build J10 overall.
> To say this was from J9 is a folly; the best fighter at the time they would put together was J8 from which J9 was evolving. To leap forward into a highly complex design such as J10; Lavi knowledge transfer was pivitol.


Certainly supports what I have read as well. However it has had to be redesigned since then. Most likely there was a protoype crash in the late 90s which led to a rehash of design. Obviously we rely on open source information which is unvarifiable given the Chinese secrecy.
A


SQ8 said:


> Its either that or the Rafale since the platform diversity has actually shown its handicap from an operational standpoint.


Logic demands IN will eventually procure the Rafale for its Navy.
A

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## Ghessan

PakShaheen79 said:


> He didn't confirm the number when a journalist asked if the news of 25 J-10C flypass on 23rd March is true.



i think he did the right thing. the way he tell everything even hide, he would never give any number.


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## Big_bud

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 806152



Where are the 11 hard points? All the pics I have seen, none shows 11 hard points. Can someone enlighten me?


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## cssniper

I guess lavi fans sure have solid proofs about the direct relations between lavi's and j-10's design, they just don't want to share them right?


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## The Terminator

Deltadart said:


> I have always felt that DG ISPR should be a civilian employee of the defense dept. A person well versed in the science of PR and knows the value of the social media etc.
> It is a terrible waste of military resources to have a person of a rank of Maj gen to be doing pr for the armed forces. Let him lead the troops, that's what he is trained to do. Besides this present ispr spokesperson is a dud.
> 
> The one where kickbacks are involved. Hope it helps.


Previous DG ISPR was way better and had a distinct character while he spoke.

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## The Terminator

Falcon26 said:


> Strangely, after operation Swift Retort, the Indians were complaining that they needed a DG ISPR level position for information dissemination and control. They felt that such a role was important in projecting single narratives around the war.
> 
> I see the merits of a civilian control over the DG ISPR, but I also think it should be left to the military to tell their story. Unless the fundamental military-civil divide in Pakistan is resolved, it is meaningless to attempt such a pivot. In fact, even after this military-civil divide is addressed, the position of DG ISPR should remain with the military. My only concern is that the DG ISPR, just like the ISI and the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, has turned into an army domain where the navy and Air Force have no say. Due to the evolving nature of the modern war, I think the Air Force and navy should be given their due respect. The era of vast armies rolling into enemy territory are over. Today it is about air and naval projections.
> 
> Pakistan’s understanding of the military hierarchy should also evolve. In fact, such an evolution will go a long way in resolving the military-civil divide itself, and probably help create a more professional, depoliticized and result oriented army instead of the current DHA land grabbing mafia and egotistical overlords they have now turned into.


Partially agreed with you. DG ISPR should always stay with the military but Navy and Air force should be given their turn too. Our army is politically too strong and other sister armed forces just follow the lead of the Army. 

The post of DG ISPR has nothing to do with the "land grabbing and egoistical overlords". It's a thought process, social custom/tradition and a system corrupt status quo (civil-military mafia). The post of DG ISPR is a spokesperson of the military and yes it proved to be a great advantage to Pakistan during that short conflict with India


----------



## Pak47

Abid123 said:


> Is the SU-35 rumour true?



No, Russians did not allow Chinese avionics to be integrated with it. Some say it was a bargaining chip for Typhoons which also did not materialize. Best bet at a flanker would be J-15 as it's based on Ukraine's Su-33 which avoids Russia all together.

If I'm not mistaken it uses the same engine series as J10C which would make a lot of sense for PAF to procure it. 

A J-16 in J-15 clothing will secure Pakistani territorial waters for 10+ years.

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## m52k85

Rafi said:


> PAF believes the AESA Radar with the PL10 and PL15 on the J10 have basically given them an advantage to the indian air force, including Raphael.


Sir, for that PAF will have to dual rack the Pl-15s on a flight of J-10s so as to launch a credible staggered (defensive - none-advancing or offensive - advancing) flow against a flight of incoming Rafales. Unfortunately we haven only seen Pl-12s being dual racked on the J-10s so far. So Im not sure if its a clear advantage or simply a more level chance..

Atleast, this is what I have gathered from the recent simulations done by people on this forum and elsewhere on Command.


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## MH.Yang

Will Pakistan consider JH7A2? an EW aircraft carrying two EW pods.

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## Falcon26

Pak47 said:


> No, Russians did not allow Chinese avionics to be integrated with it. Some say it was a bargaining chip for Typhoons which also did not materialize. Best bet at a flanker would be J-15 as it's based on Ukraine's Su-33 which avoids Russia all together.
> 
> If I'm not mistaken it uses the same engine series as J10C which would make a lot of sense for PAF to procure it.
> 
> A J-16 in J-15 clothing will secure Pakistani territorial waters for 10+ years.



Are you sure Ukraine operates SU-33s?


----------



## aliyusuf

MH.Yang said:


> Will Pakistan consider JH7A2, an EW aircraft carrying two EW pods.
> 
> View attachment 806284


They certainly should.


----------



## The Eagle

What you folks think that IF, J-10C are coming and that is the only acquisition/new capability as usual? Think about the future ahead of us. Think about the limits you might expect to cross to strengthen defence & enhance capability. Think.....

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## Pak47

Falcon26 said:


> Are you sure Ukraine operates SU-33s?



"The J-15 originally came out of Ukraine. In 2001, China bought an unfinished Su-33 prototype from Ukraine, which it studied extensively."

No, but it's accepted that Ukraine supplied SU-33 to China which became the J-15.


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## PakShaheen79

The Terminator said:


> J-10C question well left by the DG ISPR. He talked a lot but he left the question unanswered for the news reporters.
> 
> But if you read the message in between the lines then we might have a huge news/rumor at our disposal.
> 
> *DG ISPR 1st talked about the indigenization policy then said I can't confirm* but "YES" we are upgrading to new technologies and acquisition as per the threat assessment. One may speculate from it that not only J-10C are coming, they are coming with some form of ToT for that upgrading indigenous tech too. Lol
> 
> Exactly



Not confirmed comments were about the size of J-10C fleet not the acquisition itself. If he left question unanswered, why did he stated "we are upgrading air force fleet" .... ? Plz listen the presser again for more clarity.


The Eagle said:


> What you folks think that IF, J-10C are coming and that is the only acquisition/new capability as usual? Think about the future ahead of us. Think about the limits you might expect to cross to strengthen defence & enhance capability. Think.....



Z-10ME ....

اتنا کافی ہےیا مزید ۔۔۔۔؟

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## Goenitz

PakShaheen79 said:


> Z-10ME ....
> 
> اتنا کافی ہےیا مزید ۔۔۔۔؟


I guess jammers and AWACS or ground based radars (like the one in Mianwali to detect stealth). But can ZDK pass situational information to HQ-9 w/o HQ-9 turning on its radar?

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## The Eagle

PakShaheen79 said:


> Z-10ME ....
> 
> اتنا کافی ہےیا مزید ۔۔۔۔؟





Goenitz said:


> I guess jammers and AWACS or ground based radars (like the one in Mianwali to detect stealth). But can ZDK pass situational information to HQ-9 w/o HQ-9 turning on its radar?



Let the J-10C arrives at once. There will be talks and people will start reading tid bits in near future. It is bigger than an equipment.

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is an absolutely pathetic and pi-ss poor post from you.
> 
> The subject of Lavi was of serious discussion in the US congress many a decades ago.
> 
> Israel was severly reprimanded for that.




And even if they reprimanded Israel for the transfer of knowledge and especially project management and avionics integration, the J-10 is never ever a Lavi copy or clone; this simply false statement is only used - in the same way the FC-31 is always called a F-35 clone - for political reasons, but it is not based on facts, and you know it.

As such don‘t spread again your agenda, anyone here knows how biased and arrogant you are and as long as you can piss on anyone‘s leg you don’t like its fine for you. Facts is we all know are only interesting to you as long they fit your agenda, otherwise you are twisting, lying and instulting against anyone you don‘t like.

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## Deino

Big_bud said:


> Where are the 11 hard points? All the pics I have seen, none shows 11 hard points. Can someone enlighten me?




here you are … the red ones are not loaded in this image but we all know the centreline station and the rear pylons are anyway rarely used.

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## cssniper

m52k85 said:


> Sir, for that PAF will have to dual rack the Pl-15s on a flight of J-10s so as to launch a credible staggered (defensive - none-advancing or offensive - advancing) flow against a flight of incoming Rafales. Unfortunately we haven only seen Pl-12s being dual racked on the J-10s so far. So Im not sure if its a clear advantage or simply a more level chance..
> 
> Atleast, this is what I have gathered from the recent simulations done by people on this forum and elsewhere on Command.







Just got the image，




Here's another.

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## Deino

MH.Yang said:


> Will Pakistan consider JH7A2? an EW aircraft carrying two EW pods.
> 
> View attachment 806284




Maybe, but again, why introducing an old type, that is close to being retired, IMO there is no chance even if some grumpy old men still hail this type as a MUST HAVE one.


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## Ali_Baba

MH.Yang said:


> Will Pakistan consider JH7A2? an EW aircraft carrying two EW pods.
> 
> View attachment 806284



Obsolete airframe with no growth potential and maintenance heavy engines - will be a noose around PAFs neck for the limited capabilities it provides. So, i doubt it would be considered.

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## MH.Yang

Deino said:


> Maybe, but again, why introducing an old type, that is close to being retired, IMO there is no chance even if some grumpy old men still hail this type as a MUST HAVE one.


JH7A2 has good takeoff and landing performance, large max-range and large external load, and comprehensive mobility is not poor. Isn't it very suitable for EW aircraft?

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## Shah_Deu

MH.Yang said:


> JH7A2 has good takeoff and landing performance, large max-range and large external load, and comprehensive mobility is not poor. Isn't it very suitable for EW aircraft?


Or aren't these characteristics (especially large max- range and large external load) also necessary for a long range maritime bomber-fighter?


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## MH.Yang

Shah_Deu said:


> Or aren't these characteristics (especially large max- range and large external load) also necessary for a long range maritime bomber-fighter?


EW aircraft
Electronic warfare aircraft

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## cssniper

Deino said:


> Maybe, but again, why introducing an old type, that is close to being retired, IMO there is no chance even if some grumpy old men still hail this type as a MUST HAVE one.


Old soldiers never die，haha. 
Besides，it's still a deadly aircraft，suits both PAF and PN, among few options. 
BTW, EW equipment needs heavy engine.


----------



## leviathan

J10C won golden helm for 2020 and 2021 agasint J-16. Of course, not saying its better than J-16 in performance, but J-10C is difinetly there for the game.




J10C Cockpit




J10C take off in 4K Zhuhai Airshow





珠海航展闭幕各型参展飞机归建 歼10C 歼轰7等众多机型_哔哩哔哩_bilibili


2021年第十三届珠海航展闭幕，参加地面展示和飞行表演的中国空军现役战机，歼10C型、歼轰7A，八一飞行表演队歼-10AY，教练10型圆满完成任务，启航归建。, 视频播放量 82176、弹幕量 606、点赞数 3126、投硬币枚数 664、收藏人数 1315、转发人数 127, 视频作者 LovePlane1, 作者简介 原创航空视频摄影，航空爱好者。与我一起观赏各型飞机，领略航空的魅力。，相关视频：2022珠海航展 战神轰6K轰炸机挂载高超音速导弹起飞归建，5分钟看完2021珠海航展...




www.bilibili.com

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## m52k85

cssniper said:


> View attachment 806291
> 
> Just got the image，
> View attachment 806293
> 
> Here's another.


Nice work, was it easy to find? I may be losing my touch..


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## xuxu1457

MH.Yang said:


> JH7A2 has good takeoff and landing performance, large max-range and large external load, and comprehensive mobility is not poor. Isn't it very suitable for EW aircraft?


JH7 Mainly responsible for ground and sea attacks, air combat capability is relatively weak


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## cssniper

m52k85 said:


> Nice work, was it easy to find? I may be losing my touch..


Most pictures I found are dual-rack with PL-12 too, but it seems these pictures do exist for some time.


----------



## MH.Yang

Let the old soldier accompany J10C with an EW pod.

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## The Eagle

MH.Yang said:


> Let the old soldier accompany J10C with an EW pod.
> View attachment 806295
> 
> View attachment 806297



If only a POD matters that much. However, J-10C hasn't yet arrived and now the discussion has been kicked to JH7 and what not. Can we please keep it on topic in this thread while new fighter suggestions be taken to New Fighter Air Craft for PAF Doctrine thread?

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## PakShaheen79

The Eagle said:


> Let the J-10C arrives at once. There will be talks and people will start reading tid bits in near future. *It is bigger than an equipment.*


Heavy tease ... very heavy. "Something from Uncle Sam" level tease ... fingers crossed!

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## The Eagle

PakShaheen79 said:


> Heavy tease ... very heavy. "Something from Uncle Sam" level tease ... fingers crossed!



Not acknowledging an OEM or Origin or a particular capability but, let the time comes and let's pray and hope for the best. In'Sha'ALLAH a lot to be proud of by strengthening the roots for defence of the Pakistan.

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## Big_bud

Deino said:


> here you are … the red ones are not loaded in this image but we all know the centreline station and the rear pylons are anyway rarely used.
> 
> View attachment 806292



I am almost 99% certain that what you have highlighted seems to be incorrect. You have bdw also highlighted the gun i think. Which can't be on a hardpoint. I cant find any real picture of J10c with missiles or anything loaded near the engine exhaust. Most pics are like this:


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## Deino

Big_bud said:


> I am almost 99% certain that what you have highlighted is wrong. You have bdw also highlighted the gun. Gun isnt a hardpoint. I cant find any real picture of J10c with missiles or anything loaded near the engine exhaust. Most pics are showing it having a dual rack under the wings. Plus a fuel tank on the belly.




Oh please; come on!  ... yes, I highlighted the place, where the attachments points are. If you don't agree since the gun is very closed to it and aren't able to find one showing the rear stations, then do not blame me being wrong, for what is a well-known fact.

Here after just less than a minute of search! Better now?

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## Big_bud

Deino said:


> Oh please; come on!  ... yes, I highlighted the place, where the attachments points are. If you don't agree since the gun is very closed to it and aren't able to find one showing the rear stations, then do not blame me being wrong, for what is a well-known fact.
> 
> Here after just less than a minute of search! Better now?
> 
> View attachment 806314



Relax man! Lol.. good one! Wow.. I couldn't see any thing on the previous pic where these could attach! Thats a serious load out! Bdw the one I shared has wingtip missles too. Does it make 13 hardpoints then?


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## Deino

Big_bud said:


> Relax man! Lol.. good one! Wow.. I couldn't see any thing on the previous pic where these could attach! Thats a serious load out! Bdw the one I shared has wingtip missles too. Does it make 13 hardpoints then?




Please again, and as I explained you already twice, this one with the wt-stations was a CG only! You really need to improve your research and even more to listen and learn from the replies you get to your posts.

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## PurpleButcher

The Eagle said:


> Let the J-10C arrives at once. There will be talks and people will start reading tid bits in near future. It is bigger than an equipment.


Defence treaty with China?



Deino said:


> Maybe, but again, why introducing an old type, that is close to being retired, IMO there is no chance even if *some grumpy old men *still hail this type as a MUST HAVE one.


why are you so shy to take his name.... does his name start with M and end with Khan?

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## The Eagle

PurpleButcher said:


> Defence treaty with China?

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## SD 10

I have a question for informed members here.... Why j10 doesn`t have wingtip launchers for missiles (Wingtip hardpoint), wont it be an increase in overall hardpoints of the jet or is it not possible?


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## Windjammer

Apparently Sheikh Rashid got his wrist slapped. 
Anyways here's a nice image of the bird.

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## Ali_Baba

Deino said:


> Oh please; come on!  ... yes, I highlighted the place, where the attachments points are. If you don't agree since the gun is very closed to it and aren't able to find one showing the rear stations, then do not blame me being wrong, for what is a well-known fact.
> 
> Here after just less than a minute of search! Better now?
> 
> View attachment 806314



Are the rear underfuselage hardpoints at the rear, wired with a databus? Can anything smart be attached to them ?

ie how are the various hardpoints configured ? Anyone come across a diagram showing which weapons are supported on which hardpoints?

As the image below on the rafale shows - it can be equipped with smart weapons on under fuselage its rear-hardpoints. Wondering if the J10C designers made similar considerations?

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## Ali_Baba

Windjammer said:


> Apparently Sheikh Rashid got his wrist slapped.
> Anyways here's a nice image of the bird.
> 
> View attachment 806360



For leakining too early or for providing false information  ..

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## The Eagle

SD 10 said:


> I have a question for informed members here.... Why j10 doesn`t have wingtip launchers for missiles (Wingtip hardpoint), wont it be an increase in overall hardpoints of the jet or is it not possible?



Given the wing design

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## Enigma SIG

Ali_Baba said:


> For leakining too early or for providing false information  ..


If it turns out to be false PDF shall lynch him 😁


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## Jinn Baba

This is what happens when a man not even qualified to be a chaprasi is made Interior minister and made privy to information way above his comprehension level  

But, after DG ISPR press conference, we know that J10s are definitely coming. It however remains to be seen whether they are A/B/C/S models, how many, or whether the reason we are not hearing of a Block 4 JF17 is because JF production is to be replaced by J10 production.

Lets see, should be a fun year.

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## SIPRA

Ali_Baba said:


> For leakining too early or for providing false information  ..



For uttering "bongiyan", about a matter, which is non of his business.


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## Goenitz

Windjammer said:


> Apparently Sheikh Rashid got his wrist slapped.
> Anyways here's a nice image of the bird.
> 
> View attachment 806360


Are you supposing S.Rashid infront of it ?


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## Deltadart

The Eagle said:


> What you folks think that IF, J-10C are coming and that is the only acquisition/new capability as usual? Think about the future ahead of us. Think about the limits you might expect to cross to strengthen defence & enhance capability. Think.....


Our greatest and perennial weakness has always been our underdeveloped economy and industry. Our virtually non existent technological base, and most of all lack of a strong, honest and patriotic leadership at the top will ensure our precarious existence continues into the foreseeable future. Therefore, our arms procurements will follow the same pattern of the past, unfortunately!

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## The Eagle

Windjammer said:


> Apparently Sheikh Rashid got his wrist slapped.
> Anyways here's a nice image of the bird.
> 
> View attachment 806360



😂 2hat happened to him?


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## Deino

Ali_Baba said:


> Are the rear underfuselage hardpoints at the rear, wired with a databus? Can anything smart be attached to them ?
> 
> ie how are the various hardpoints configured ? Anyone come across a diagram showing which weapons are supported on which hardpoints?
> 
> As the image below on the rafale shows - it can be equipped with smart weapons on under fuselage its rear-hardpoints. Wondering if the J10C designers made similar considerations?
> 
> View attachment 806364




AFAIK the rear ones are only for general purpose bombs, but as already noted by others they are rarely in use anyway.

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## denel

araz said:


> Certainly supports what I have read as well. However it has had to be redesigned since then. Most likely there was a protoype crash in the late 90s which led to a rehash of design. Obviously we rely on open source information which is unvarifiable given the Chinese secrecy.
> A
> 
> Logic demands IN will eventually procure the Rafale for its Navy.
> A


Correct; unfortunately, Chinese have a nasty habit of trying to plagurise and no give any credits - just like they called the Su' series their own. Just look at J9- it was nothing more than a rehash of J8 which was already so obsolete in early 80s; J9 was very similar take to Su-15; they could not even copy a 707. Here the blueprints were handed over plus not to mention several areas of engagement that were occurring. Lavi blueprint represented a quantum leap for them. True they improved the design and moved it forward; but the DNA is Lavi.


The Eagle said:


> Let the J-10C arrives at once. There will be talks and people will start reading tid bits in near future. It is bigger than an equipment.



Correct -there is just too much excitement .. let us hope it does not turn out to be a dud 500+ pages like we saw with that bogus F16 wildgoose chase thread.

Wait and see is best policy.

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## SQ8

luciferdd said:


> F-16 fuselage section means nothing,Hundreds F-16 had been crash at the past 40 years i don't think anyone had been R&D a jet base these fuselage sections.don't you know the us wants to export their F-16 with old J79 to China at 1980s,but China refused it.Canard delta wing J-10 is totally different from F-16.


I think this post completely defines your understanding of the subject and context - which is shallow at best and childish at worst. Ill give you a hint - both the F-16 and J-10 have fuselages and the blended structure within them has links.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*J-10C plaque with the serial number of “21-601” and PAF squadron Bandits marking on it.*

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## SQ8

denel said:


> Correct; unfortunately, Chinese have a nasty habit of trying to plagurise and no give any credits - just like they called the Su' series their own. Just look at J9- it was nothing more than a rehash of J8 which was already so obsolete in early 80s; J9 was very similar take to Su-15; they could not even copy a 707. Here the blueprints were handed over plus not to mention several areas of engagement that were occurring. Lavi blueprint represented a quantum leap for them. True they improved the design and moved it forward; but the DNA is Lavi.
> 
> 
> Correct -there is just too much excitement .. let us hope it does not turn out to be a dud 500+ pages like we saw with that bogus F16 wildgoose chase thread.
> 
> Wait and see is best policy.


I think the J-9 was a different single engine design attempt but possibly attached with risks that they did not want to undertake.

You may be thinking of the J-8 whose reason of similarity was the similar paths they took. The Su-15 came as an evolution from the Su-11.

The J-8 was literally slapping two J-7s together. Its initial iteration looks exactly like that.MiG also did this with the Mig-21 but did not go beyond to add the large radome.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Shotgunner51

SQ8 said:


> I think this post completely defines your understanding of the subject and context - which is shallow at best and childish at worst. Ill give you a hint -* both the F-16 and J-10 have fuselages and the blended structure within them has links*.


Why degenerate the discussion to name calling a fellow PDFer @luciferdd as shallow, childish? Since you have done so perhaps better enlighten us about your "hint". Let's move focus back to the fuselage not personal of fellow poster, the J-10A employs a splitter plate intake (and then DSI later) while F-16 employs pitot tube intake, how does this contribute to the "links" or "copy" story?

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## NA71

Ali_Baba said:


> For leakining too early or for providing false information  ..


25 wala part seems wrong info....after that announcement he has not been in Media ....may be under house arrest for software update....

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## Imran Khan

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *J-10C plaque with the serial number of “21-601” and PAF squadron Bandits marking on it.*
> 
> View attachment 806392


you guys will have ony this toy sheeda talli make you guys fool

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## Windjammer

The Eagle said:


> 😂 2hat happened to him?


چھوڑو یار مجھے خود ڈانٹ پڑی
For posting the SU-35 news.

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## CriticalThought

Windjammer said:


> چھوڑو یار مجھے خود ڈانٹ پڑی
> For posting the SU-35 news.



Take heart, we all understand it is only rumors. But I stand behind the concept of Su35/J15/J16 for naval power projection, so the concept is not without merit.

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## baqai

don't know where to post this but oh well ... just to juice things up ... fan made by me

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Imran Khan said:


> you guys will have ony this toy sheeda talli make you guys fool


LOL, I hope not a lot of hearts will be broken.

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## denel

SQ8 said:


> I think the J-9 was a different single engine design attempt but possibly attached with risks that they did not want to undertake.
> 
> You may be thinking of the J-8 whose reason of similarity was the similar paths they took. The Su-15 came as an evolution from the Su-11.
> 
> The J-8 was literally slapping two J-7s together. Its initial iteration looks exactly like that.MiG also did this with the Mig-21 but did not go beyond to add the large radome.


Thanks for correction; J8 was an ugly concoction of someone having a hangover and double vision .

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## The Eagle

Windjammer said:


> چھوڑو یار مجھے خود ڈانٹ پڑی
> For posting the SU-35 news.



مطلب شیخ جی بھی ڈانٹ سن چکے؟ 😂
For SU-35? Didn't you ask before.

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## denel

The Eagle said:


> مطلب شیخ جی بھی ڈانٹ سن چکے؟ 😂
> For SU-35? Didn't you ask before.


now now... you are trying to incite overexcitement

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## Windjammer

The Eagle said:


> مطلب شیخ جی بھی ڈانٹ سن چکے؟ 😂
> For SU-35? Didn't you ask before.

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## akramishaqkhan

Polestar 2 said:


> J-10C is to replace F-16 which supply and spare cut off in future. Some say Turkey can continue help to maintain or service it which there is a limit especially engine which no way Turkey can replicate or keep overhaul to give it another life.
> 
> Basically in future, there will be only one medium weight fighter which makes the correct decision to buy J-10C. There are effective and yet still cheaper to maintenance compare to heavy weight fighter.


I respectfully disagree. I think J10C are more a replacement of Mirage3s (with eventual Mirage5s), though I think Mirage5s will be around longer than 3s. I might be wrong but I think that is (Mirage3s) currently the front and center issue. JF17 help us roll off the F7Ps.


Pakistan Space Agency said:


> That is worrying. Wondering how Pakistan has survived this long.
> 
> If it's okay for you to reveal, can I ask how does the military interact with the PDF staff to prevent certain information from being published here? Is it via ISPR making a request or someone with a direct hotline between the military and the forum admin(s)?


Dont worry about Pakistan surviving. We'll survive just fine. And dont worry how info gets fed to PDF either.


FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *J-10C plaque with the serial number of “21-601” and PAF squadron Bandits marking on it.*
> 
> View attachment 806392


This was not a fan model picked up from a Hobby store.

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## SQ8

Shotgunner51 said:


> Why degenerate the discussion to name calling a fellow PDFer @luciferdd as shallow, childish? Since you have done so perhaps better enlighten us about your "hint". Let's move focus back to the fuselage not personal of fellow poster, the J-10A employs a splitter plate intake (and then DSI later) while F-16 employs pitot tube intake, how does this contribute to the "links" or "copy" story?
> 
> View attachment 806406


It is Childish and that user’s tone deserves it ,

and you are falling down the same train of thought that lies on “dont insult China!” Ego too. 
If a F-16 wing box section specifically from behind the fuselage all the way to the tail was provided relatively intact to the Chinese.
https://i.postimg.cc/jSxthDbZ/Cutaway-GD-F-16-A.jpg

I would be disappointed if the Chinese were only capable of copying it. Smarter engineers(such as those who requested this from the third party country which had the crash) wanted to study the section at fabrication and welding technique along with any design cues - something akin to “design notes”.

As recently as 2017 - the third party was shipping off debris and parts off US weapons and equipment in Afghanistan to China for “design notes”


denel said:


> Thanks for correction; J8 was an ugly concoction of someone having a hangover and double vision .


It was a simple solution really considering the design expertise that existed then and the success of the Su-15. The J-9 was a really forward thinking design if only the Soviets would have provided them with the R-29 engine

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## GumNaam

CIA Mole said:


> should be on par with rafale unless the communist factories do commie corner cutting


the "communist factories" work on western standards. there's a reason why western nations can't survive without "communist" products.

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## Shotgunner51

SQ8 said:


> It is Childish and that user’s tone deserves it ,
> 
> and you are falling down the same train of thought that lies on “dont insult China!” Ego too.


No, he was debunking your baseless "China bad" malicious intent with solid arguments that you can't counter, chose to evade and worse retaliate by insulting him:

You assume picking up a fuselage must lead straight to copying, while it could be used for other purposes say finding weakness, finding soft spots, avoiding mistakes, or even simply scrap as garbage if no value.
You blatantly ignore the fundamental difference in aerodynamic structure between the two air-frames.



SQ8 said:


> If a F-16 wing box section specifically from behind the fuselage all the way to the tail was provided relatively intact to the Chinese.
> https://i.postimg.cc/jSxthDbZ/Cutaway-GD-F-16-A.jpg
> 
> I would be disappointed if the Chinese were only capable of copying it. Smarter engineers(such as those who requested this from the third party country which had the crash) wanted to study the section at fabrication and welding technique along with any design cues - something akin to “design notes”.
> 
> As recently as 2017 - the third party was shipping off debris and parts off US weapons and equipment in Afghanistan to China for “design notes”


No need for "If", I can also show you a J-10 diagram as well, what's your argument?

My argument was clear, shall I repeat? *On top of the fact that J-10A design employs a delta canard design which is entirely different from F-16, even we just focus on the fuselage, J-10A design employs a splitter plate intake (and then DSI later) while F-16 employs pitot tube intake, how does this contribute to the "links" or "copy" story?*






Studying the sections, welds or even debris and look for any design clues, even if that has happened, is an entirely different thing from design "copying", let alone the end products turn out to be completely different things. I would be disappointed if Americans or American-wannabes are only capable of faking "China copy" stories without proof or even a single argument, and worse resort to insult when lies are debunked openly.

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## Nefarious

Shotgunner51 said:


> No, he was debunking your baseless "China bad" malicious intent with solid arguments that you can't counter, chose to evade and worse retaliate by insulting him:
> 
> You assume picking up a fuselage must lead straight to copying, while it could be used for other purposes say finding weakness, finding soft spots, avoiding mistakes, or even simply scrap as garbage if no value.
> You blatantly ignore the fundamental difference in aerodynamic structure between the two air-frames.
> 
> No need for "If", I can also show you a J-10 diagram as well, what's your argument?
> 
> My argument was clear, shall I repeat? *On top of the fact that J-10A design employs a delta canard design which is entirely different from F-16, even we just focus on the fuselage, J-10A design employs a splitter plate intake (and then DSI later) while F-16 employs pitot tube intake, how does this contribute to the "links" or "copy" story?*
> 
> View attachment 806470
> 
> 
> Studying the sections, welds or even debris and look for any design clues, even if that has happened, is an entirely different thing from design "copying", let alone the end products turn out to be completely different things. I would be disappointed if Americans or American-wannabes are only capable of faking "China copy" stories without proof or even a single argument, and worse resort to insult when lies are debunked openly.



They're definitely very different I don't think anyone can say that's a copy of F-16. Maybe it was more to do with the material etc in which case it's all speculation.

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## luciferdd

SQ8 said:


> It is Childish and that user’s tone deserves it ,
> 
> and you are falling down the same train of thought that lies on “dont insult China!” Ego too.
> If a F-16 wing box section specifically from behind the fuselage all the way to the tail was provided relatively intact to the Chinese.
> https://i.postimg.cc/jSxthDbZ/Cutaway-GD-F-16-A.jpg
> 
> I would be disappointed if the Chinese were only capable of copying it. Smarter engineers(such as those who requested this from the third party country which had the crash) wanted to study the section at fabrication and welding technique along with any design cues - something akin to “design notes”.
> 
> As recently as 2017 - the third party was shipping off debris and parts off US weapons and equipment in Afghanistan to China for “design notes”
> 
> It was a simple solution really considering the design expertise that existed then and the success of the Su-15. The J-9 was a really forward thinking design if only the Soviets would have provided them with the R-29 engine


I remember I had told you J-10A has lots of techs that directly from Europe,that is include fabrication and welding technique you had mentioned,troll.IF you have an eye,you will find J-10A is more like the Mirage 2000 especially at wing body fusion design.As i say you know little about J-10A,you just imagine every thing,pity boy.

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## Beast

luciferdd said:


> I remember I had told you J-10A has lots of techs that directly from Europe,that is include fabrication and welding technique you had mentioned,troll.IF you have an eye,you will find J-10A is more like the Mirage 2000 especially at wing body fusion design.As i say you know little about J-10A,you just imagine every thing,pity boy.
> View attachment 806481
> View attachment 806482


And like that can be called as link?

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## luciferdd

Beast said:


> And like that can be called as link?


It is not a secrect CAS had been introduced huge techs from france to R&D j-10,就当时成飞乃至中航的技术能力而言十分正常而且十分有必要，这并不丢人没有什么不好意思承认的.


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## The Terminator

SQ8 said:


> It is Childish and that user’s tone deserves it ,
> 
> and you are falling down the same train of thought that lies on “dont insult China!” Ego too.
> If a F-16 wing box section specifically from behind the fuselage all the way to the tail was provided relatively intact to the Chinese.
> https://i.postimg.cc/jSxthDbZ/Cutaway-GD-F-16-A.jpg
> 
> I would be disappointed if the Chinese were only capable of copying it. Smarter engineers(such as those who requested this from the third party country which had the crash) wanted to study the section at fabrication and welding technique along with any design cues - something akin to “design notes”.
> 
> As recently as 2017 - the third party was shipping off debris and parts off US weapons and equipment in Afghanistan to China for “design notes”
> 
> It was a simple solution really considering the design expertise that existed then and the success of the Su-15. The J-9 was a really forward thinking design if only the Soviets would have provided them with the R-29 engine


Plz give some respect to that third party country and disclose it's name as a gesture of respect and acknowledgement

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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> And even if they reprimanded Israel for the transfer of knowledge and especially project management and avionics integration, the J-10 is never ever a Lavi copy or clone; this simply false statement is only used - in the same way the FC-31 is always called a F-35 clone - for political reasons, but it is not based on facts, and you know it.
> 
> As such don‘t spread again your agenda, anyone here knows how biased and arrogant you are and as long as you can piss on anyone‘s leg you don’t like its fine for you. Facts is we all know are only interesting to you as long they fit your agenda, otherwise you are twisting, lying and instulting against anyone you don‘t like.



Hi,

Poor guy---you so vehemently trying to deny the truth more so than Israel to US congress. 

You always do deny it---must touch a nerve somewhere.


Deino said:


> Maybe, but again, why introducing an old type, that is close to being retired, IMO there is no chance even if some grumpy old men still hail this type as a MUST HAVE one.



Hi,

This old man has been proven right more time than you will ever be on a defense forum regarding major purchases---.

What is you claim of fame---?

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## SQ8

luciferdd said:


> I remember I had told you J-10A has lots of techs that directly from Europe,that is include fabrication and welding technique you had mentioned,troll.IF you have an eye,you will find J-10A is more like the Mirage 2000 especially at wing body fusion design.As i say you know little about J-10A,you just imagine every thing,pity boy.
> View attachment 806481
> View attachment 806482


I said no such thing - you must be confusing me with someone else or quote the exact post.
You are still the petulant child trying to support his picture copy paste argument without even understanding what I am trying to say. Learn English and then talk to me


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Poor guy---you so vehemently trying to deny the truth more so than Israel to US congress.
> 
> You always do deny it---must touch a nerve somewhere.
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> This old man has been proven right more time than you will ever be on a defense forum regarding major purchases---.
> 
> What is you claim of fame---?


Uhh…not that I disagree with you regarding the Israeli connection but Deino is a published author and quoted researcher on Chinese defense whereas who has heard of you?(or me)


Shotgunner51 said:


> No, he was debunking your baseless "China bad" malicious intent with solid arguments that you can't counter, chose to evade and worse retaliate by insulting him:
> 
> You assume picking up a fuselage must lead straight to copying, while it could be used for other purposes say finding weakness, finding soft spots, avoiding mistakes, or even simply scrap as garbage if no value.
> You blatantly ignore the fundamental difference in aerodynamic structure between the two air-frames.
> 
> No need for "If", I can also show you a J-10 diagram as well, what's your argument?
> 
> My argument was clear, shall I repeat? *On top of the fact that J-10A design employs a delta canard design which is entirely different from F-16, even we just focus on the fuselage, J-10A design employs a splitter plate intake (and then DSI later) while F-16 employs pitot tube intake, how does this contribute to the "links" or "copy" story?*
> 
> View attachment 806470
> 
> 
> *Studying the sections, welds or even debris and look for any design clues, even if that has happened*, is an entirely different thing from design "copying", let alone the end products turn out to be completely different things. I would be disappointed if Americans or American-wannabes are only capable of faking "China copy" stories without proof or even a single argument, and worse resort to insult when lies are debunked openly.


You do realize you are actually repeated my EXACT argument in trying to defend your countryman.
Are so frothing at your mouth that you aren’t even bothering to comprehend what I just said. Which is LITERALLY the bold part.

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## luciferdd

SQ8 said:


> I said no such thing - you must be confusing me with someone else or quote the exact post.
> You are still the petulant child trying to support his picture copy paste argument without even understanding what I am trying to say. Learn English and then talk to me
> 
> Uhh…not that I disagree with you but Deino is a published author and quoted researcher on Chinese defense.
> 
> You do realize you are actually repeated my EXACT argument in trying to defend your countryman.
> Are so frothing at your mouth that you aren’t even bothering to comprehend what I just said. Which is LITERALLY the bold part.


Come on we all know what you want to hint,you just don't say it directly.


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## Mav3rick

I am reading up on the goodies that are coming our way, the J-10s, Helo's, SAM systems etc.,

Has anyone wondered where we are going to the get the money from? All this while the Government is looking to tax more, to the point where imported infant formula is being proposed to be taxed and even donations are proposed to be taxed! Is this all Just to maintain our ego? Is this really justified?

I was also reading up on Business Recorder research report in which they tried to discover why our imports bill is rising steadily and could not substantiate import claims on extra Oil or medicine etc. Now that I am thinking of everything, is it possible that our import bill is going through the roof because of all these imports and that we are hiding the actual imports behind bogus inflated import heads? We are begging IMF, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Turkey, Malaysia and whomever else who would listen to give us aid, loan etc., and are accepting extremely tough and painful conditions and yet on the other hand we are trying to go head to head with India........do we really want to end up like USSR which tried to go head to head with the US? Why isn't anyone talking about this?

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## SQ8

luciferdd said:


> Come on we all know what you want to hint,you just don't say it directly.


Now you’re shooting tangents and hiding behind made up accusations because your argument flopped on its face. The fact is you are so focused on defending China and looking for make believe enemies that not only could you not comprehend my posts but the funniest thing is that in defending you from the “enemy” another fellow actually repeated EXACTLY what I said - does he too want to hint what you are accusing me of?

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## Beast

luciferdd said:


> It is not a secrect CAS had been introduced huge techs from france to R&D j-10,就当时成飞乃至中航的技术能力而言十分正常而且十分有必要，这并不丢人没有什么不好意思承认的.


It's not about 丢脸or not. The features you talk are very minor which hardly result in exchange of any study.


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## Akatosh

Interesting excerpt from famous British defence news service Shephard media:



> The J-10C features an AESA radar and it is probably similar in capability to an F-16 Block 60 or 70. *However, the J-10C is probably still not quite a match for the Rafale.*








Pakistan invigorates its fighter fleet | Shephard


Pakistani social media exploded into rapture with news of JF-17 Block III and J-10C fighters joining the PAF this year.



www.shephardmedia.com


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## luciferdd

SQ8 said:


> Now you’re shooting tangents and hiding behind made up accusations because your argument flopped on its face. The fact is you are so focused on defending China and looking for make believe enemies that not only could you not comprehend my posts but the funniest thing is that in defending you from the “enemy” another fellow actually repeated EXACTLY what I said - does he too want to hint what you are accusing me of?


OK,then what's your meaning of Sending a post about wreckages of F16 in a thread named J-10CP?What's your real point?


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## SQ8

Akatosh said:


> Interesting excerpt from famous British defence news service Shephard media:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan invigorates its fighter fleet | Shephard
> 
> 
> Pakistani social media exploded into rapture with news of JF-17 Block III and J-10C fighters joining the PAF this year.
> 
> 
> 
> www.shephardmedia.com


Yes - the world famous Shephard media, second only to BBC and CNN in being recognized worldwide!
With the famous defense author unable to discern between an interior minister’s faux pax and actual defense briefings but knows exactly what the capabilities are.


luciferdd said:


> OK,then what's your meaning of Sending a post about wreckages of F16 in a thread named J-10CP?What's your real point?


Go back 3 pages - read through each response and the discussion on how the J-10 was developed back and forth along with specifically my response:

The wreckage of a F-16 of your iron ally and brother was shipped to you at your request for study into its design. Not to COPY as you are insecure about but to understand methods of manufacturing that would help China advance.
Much as an INTACT BGM-109 tomahawk that failed and landed in your iron brother’s land was shipped to you so you could study how it works and incorporate ideas into your own designs.

When the F-16 first arrived in Pakistan a visiting PLAAF general was invited to look at it. As he sat in the cockpit he took his two fingers and started measuring the heads up display which caused the US support staff to panic. Now why was one of the most senior PLAAF officer measuring the HUD of a US fighter? Was he trying to copy it? Or take the information back to your engineers ?

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## applesauce

Akatosh said:


> Interesting excerpt from famous British defence news service Shephard media:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan invigorates its fighter fleet | Shephard
> 
> 
> Pakistani social media exploded into rapture with news of JF-17 Block III and J-10C fighters joining the PAF this year.
> 
> 
> 
> www.shephardmedia.com



famous doesnt mean correct.

hell, gordon chang is pretty famous too, but we just laugh at him.


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## Big_bud

I think some of the "senior" and "PHD" level members should be made another forum of their own. Where they can talk to each other and just listen to themseleves on repeat. Praising their own thoughts and ideas, patting their backs for successful completion of PHDs. If you are so senior why even bother coming to a public forum? Stay away and talk with other PHDs? Why getting pissed about other members every other day? There is a kid who hasn't grown up in all of such members. A tantrum every few pages. If you can't teach and share information with others respectfully, stay away. Everyone has the right to be curious and ask questions, and ask counter questions. No one is holier than thou. Don't have patience? Don't post.

P.S. This is a general comment based on attitudes observed from some members. Pls don't quote or reply.

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## Goritoes

Windjammer said:


> چھوڑو یار مجھے خود ڈانٹ پڑی
> For posting the SU-35 news.



Bhai aap bhi @Rafi ki tarah ka koi Hit catch phrase pakkar lo... Rafi ko dekho, aadhi baat bol ker nuff said bol deta hai... dil tu chahta hai screen mai guss ke takker maar dun, phir khayal ata hai ke kuch baaten raaz hi rahen tu behter hai... nuff said

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## luciferdd

SQ8 said:


> Yes - the world famous Shephard media, second only to BBC and CNN in being recognized worldwide!
> With the famous defense author unable to discern between an interior minister’s faux pax and actual defense briefings but knows exactly what the capabilities are.
> 
> Go back 3 pages - read through each response and the discussion on how the J-10 was developed back and forth along with specifically my response:
> 
> The wreckage of a F-16 of your iron ally and brother was shipped to you at your request for study into its design. Not to COPY as you are insecure about but to understand methods of manufacturing that would help China advance.
> Much as an INTACT BGM-109 tomahawk that failed and landed in your iron brother’s land was shipped to you so you could study how it works and incorporate ideas into your own designs.
> 
> When the F-16 first arrived in Pakistan a visiting PLAAF general was invited to look at it. As he sat in the cockpit he took his two fingers and started measuring the heads up display which caused the US support staff to panic. Now why was one of the most senior PLAAF officer measuring the HUD of a US fighter? Was he trying to copy it? Or take the information back to your engineers ?


I can remind one thing to you:base on the relevant source nearly all avionics except the radar on the early batch J-10A are purchased from france directly ，they give the fully BVR capacility to J-10A,do you know what it means? A HUD?sorry it's a France（ THALES ） HUD at that time.

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## PurpleButcher

luciferdd said:


> I can remind one thing to you*:base on the relevant source* nearly all avionics except the radar on the early batch J-10A are purchased from france directly ，they give the fully BVR capacility to J-10A,do you know what it means? A HUD?sorry it's a France HUD at that time.


Can you guide us about the relevant source? any links etc, would be an interesting read!

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## luciferdd

PurpleButcher said:


> Can you guide us about the relevant source? any links etc, would be an interesting read!



猛龙诞生记​
歼10的诞生，要从1981年开始···
　在1981年年底，时任国防科工委副主任的邹家华向邓小平建议，开始搞新一代歼击机，预计初期投资在5亿元，在之后形成的正式报告上，邓小平批示“新歼项目较为重要，前期投资5亿左右，目前花钱也不多，拟同意”，就此，新一代歼击机项目正式提上议事日程。
　　当时的中国空军，不是惨，也不是非常惨，而是非常非常惨，由于长期以来国内航空工业积贫积弱，外加当时的空军也是个百年不遇的极品，所以航空武器装备水平一直是个巨大的杯具。虽然早在1964年就由沈飞组装成功了第一架米格21/歼7，但是初期暴露的大量问题和历次政治运动的冲击，使得歼7在长时间内根本没有发挥作用，时任空军司令员吴法宪（这个更是极品中的极品）居然喊出“歼7是活棺材”“宁愿歼6不要歼7”“歼6万岁”等等口号 ···直到1977年邓小平重新上台，主持国防工作会议，才提出“要更新空军装备，要停掉歼6，大力装备改进歼7替代歼6”，而之后四项改进的歼7Ⅱ到1979年才定型，而歼8白天型也是1980年才刚刚定型，直到在80年代初，空军装备的歼7和歼7I总共不过几十架，数千架战机的主体依然是战后第一代水平的歼6，还有大量亚音速的歼5，甚至到80年代中期，具备“全天候作战能力”的歼6甲，依然是“先进战机”，用来换装尖子部队 ···与此同时，美国空军已经装备第三代的F15和F16上千架，美国海军的F14也装备10余年了，苏联的米格29也已经批量服役，苏27也即将开始进入空军和防空军服役，面对此情此景，真不知道还在幻想当年中国国土防空无比坚固的同学，是哪里来的如此自信？
　　80年代初，属于中美关系的蜜月期，当时中美军事合作非常热络，黑鹰直升机、LM2500燃气轮机、反炮兵雷达等等大家知道的和不知道的武器，都是当时引进的。甚至美国有把中国吸纳为第16个北约成员国的建议，而中国也借机考察了幻影2000，F16和豹2坦克，都认真的进行了谈判，而美国也建议向中国销售F16，甚至F15！
　　但是，邓公当年并没有选择F16，不仅仅因为美国供应的是缩水版的F16/79（换了J79涡喷发动机，飞行性能大降），跟重要的是，邓公从政治角度考虑，拒绝了这宗交易，其中的政治考量在这里我就不多加讨论了。总之，邓公依然下决心，研制自己的新一代歼击机，邓公确实堪称一代伟人。真不知道那些大骂邓公是买办误国的极左们，脑子里到底装了些什么。
　　在新歼研制计划敲定之后，空军和国防科委随后对新歼击机的技术指标提出了要求，总体要求是：2年左右服役，空战性能要比歼8好，要优于米格23，争取达到F16的水平，也就是说，当时新歼的设计目标，就是要求以苏联米格23为假想敌，力争达到当时正风靡一时的F16的水平。
　　在1982年年初，由军队，国防科委和航空部主持，开始第一轮方案论证会。
　　其实对新歼项目，各个厂所都有预研，但当时主要的方案是沈飞的歼13方案和洪都的强6衍生方案。沈飞歼13方案留到后面说，先说一下强6方案：
　　强6是一款后变掠翼的强击机，技术来源是1979年通过秘密渠道从埃及换来的一家米格23MF，中国空军对米格23的后变掠翼技术非常感兴趣，于是将技术分解交与洪都仿制，但是由于各种原因强6最终下马，但之后陆孝彭和洪都设计团队以强6为基础继续改进，把它改成了歼击机方案，也参与了方案论证，但是由于洪都本身实力有限，外加强6方案固有的结构复杂，重量大，可靠性差的弱点，一开始，洪都方案就不被人报以希望。
　　总共只有两个方案，而洪都的方案又不被人看好，这样一来，沈飞歼13，在当时事实上也就已经被内定为胜出方案了。
　　歼13方案，是由沈飞“2号任务”衍生而来的方案，歼13方案最早其实从1971年歼8首飞之后就开始了研制，当时空军对刚刚首飞的歼8性能不满意，尤其对其空战格斗性能非常吐槽。根据越南战争中的教训，空军认为需要研制一种轻小灵活，中低空格斗性能优秀的战机，用来取代歼6，是一款类似于早期型F16的格斗战斗机。这个项目当时被称为“2号任务”，由沈飞和601研制。
　　沈飞/601在设计过程中大量参考了F16的气动布局，也就是常规边条翼布局，最初发动机计划采用正在研制的涡扇6（和在研的歼9使用同一款），但是1979年涡喷15项目立项之后，又计划改用涡喷15，但随着进入80年代后国民经济调整，项目没有进行下去，于1981年3月下马，在1982年年初的第一次论证会上，沈飞方案就是在歼13的基础上完善、丰富的。客观来说，歼13方案的研制基础是扎实的，是一个现实的，的确可以被造出来的一个方案。
　　说到这里，还没有我们的主角成飞什么事，因为当时确实没他什么事，当时的成飞和611，刚刚经历了歼9项目的惨败，正在一门心思抓着歼7Ⅲ这根救命稻草。611所，这个1969年才由“601成都分所”独立而来的年轻设计所，和132成都飞机制造厂一起偏于西南一隅，资历浅人脉弱，一向姥姥不疼，舅舅不爱。这次新歼论证会，航空部压根也没通知611拿出方案参加，只是临时通知611，来4个人到北京参加评审会，帮忙参与评审各家方案。当时宋文骢（后来的歼10总设计师）还在011基地（后来的贵飞）做歼7Ⅲ的技术交底工作，得到通知后就回到成都，带上三个人出差北京，但是宋文骢留了一个心眼，就是让同事把611的新歼鸭翼方案的资料也带上了。PS：个人认为，宋文骢其实可能已经预感到，此行北京可能不仅仅是旁听评审会这么简单。
　　说到这里，相信大家也猜到了，宋文骢带上的这个鸭翼方案，就是后来的歼10。其实，歼10，可以看做是歼9项目的延续，最早的歼10方案，实际上也是直接由歼9方案衍生而来的。歼9项目，是和歼8一起，作为歼7的后续机型被提出来的。在1964年成功仿制米格21/歼7上天之后，航空部就开始考虑歼7的后续机型问题。当时技术人员提出了两种方案：一是气动布局不做大改，在歼7基础上放大改双发；另一个则是气动布局大改，沿用单发，发动机使用在研的涡扇6。这两个方案，前者就是后来的歼8，而后者就是歼9。值得一提的是，第一个歼7放大改双发方案最早的提出者，恰恰就是时任601气动组组长的宋文骢。最早，歼8和歼9两个项目并行，但当时601根本没有能力并行两个项目，处于控制风险的考虑，技术保守的歼8方案被作为主攻方案重点保障，并在1971年很快上天。而歼9项目，当时只得到了601所大约十分之一的研制力量，事实上几乎不可能成功。后来沈阳601所成立成都分所，就直接把研制歼9的小组直接调去了成都。而这个601成都分所，也就是后来的成飞611所了，他们当时的任务，就是继续那个歼9项目。
　　但是这个歼9，却成了新中国航空的一个极为深刻的教训，航空口和军队外行领导内行，瞎指挥瞎折腾，政治挂帅不顾科学规律的老毛病在歼9的研制过程中被表现的淋漓尽致。歼9项目前后先后3次更改设计指标，项目五次上马六次下马，光主方案就有6、7种，各种更改设计方案更是无以计数。经过前后十多年的反复折腾，歼9最终在1981年下马了事，连同涡扇6和霹雳4中距导弹一起完蛋，成为了一个深刻教训。但塞翁失马焉知非福，为了满足军方极高的技术指标，设计人员大胆采用了当时相当时髦的“抬式布局”（也就是鸭翼布局），而在歼9的反复折腾中，611所也对鸭翼布局做了很深的研究，把能做的鸭翼/主翼匹配方案都做了个遍，由此对鸭翼布局有了很深刻的理解，这种对鸭式布局的理解，在世界范围上来说，也是首屈一指的。可以说，没有失败的歼9，就没有后来的歼10，也不会有现在风光无限的611所。
　　空军要搞新歼的消息，其实611所也早有耳闻，虽然没有接到提交方案的通知，但611还是在私下搞出了一个自己的方案，以备不时之需，而这个私下里搞出来的方案，也成了后来扭转局面的关键。
可以说，机会只会给有准备的人，611的执着换来了近20年后歼10的腾空一跃。
宋文骢一行四人来到北京后，下榻到总装招待所，虽说他们是来参加“方案评审”，但是谁都知道，他们只是过来打打酱油的，而对面沈飞601的汇报团，有整整30多号人… …
　　但是谁没有想到的是，当天晚上，时任航空部军机局副局长的王若松突然到房间找到宋文骢，开口就问611是不是也有一个新歼方案？并要求在明天的评审会上做一个汇报。宋文骢一下子懵了，因为出发前根本没有人通知611拿方案参加评审会。具体其中有何玄机？抑或是611的领导在宋文骢还在半路的时候跟航空部打了个小报告？这些现在都已经无从考证了，呵呵~~不过最终，王副局长还是为611争取到了15分钟的时间，在评审会休息的间隙对自己的鸭翼方案进行汇报。
而这不起眼的15分钟，开始了一场戏剧性的翻盘。
　　由于事先毫无准备，611的四个人啥都没有，宋文骢告诉另外三名同事，去隔壁兄弟单位的房间临时借几张明胶片和绘图工具，把一些重要图形、曲线和参数画在明胶片上，而汇报的内容，宋文骢则自己想办法。到第二天，611连个模型都没有，也只能用幻灯片来凑合着汇报了。
　　第二天，在沈飞和洪都汇报的间隙，宋文骢上台汇报鸭翼方案，他只有15分钟，和几张加夜班搞出来的幻灯片，随后，宋文骢从未来战争的形态和需求入手，提出新歼要强调机动性，敏捷性，要有中距拦射，要有电子对抗等等….开始了评述自己的方案，当时他具体讲了些什么，已经无从可知，但结果却是，全场热烈鼓掌，在座所有人都对这个鸭翼方案惊艳不已，表现出浓厚的兴趣，本来已经一边倒内定的沈飞方案，开始出现变数。
　　会议从16号开到了25号，会议上对新歼的气动布局，技战术指标，飞控，配套武器，雷达航电等细节进行了细致的讨论，最终会议决定，会议暂不确定新歼方案，601和611两家继续回去完善各自方案，3个月后再次召开论证会。
　　就这样，611出人意料的逆转，开始和601站在了同一起跑线上。
　　当宋文骢开完会回到611所并把会议情况做了通报之后，611全所振奋，611领导当即宣布集中全所一切力量，不惜代价的进一步完善方案，备战下一轮方案评审。
　　据下一次评审会只有短短3个月时间，而事实上611的10号方案还远没有601的10号方案完善，诸多设计还处于设想阶段。611的方案脱胎于之前下马的歼9，虽说歼9在研制过程中对鸭式布局进行了上万次吹风，但具体到歼10方案，如果要进一步完善，仍需要上万次吹风，短短三个月时间，对611所来说是个严峻的考验。
　　但庆幸的是，位于西南的与611所同期建设起来的庞大风洞群，给611完善方案提供了基础，宋文骢来到位于绵阳安县的风洞基地，却发现基地的试验已经排满，而时间只有3个月，无奈之下，宋文骢和611领导找到基地领导开后门，一番软磨硬泡外加“威逼利诱”之后，基地领导最终同意611利用晚上的时间开夜车，尽量配合工作。
　　就在这3个月中，611集中了全所能够集中的所有资源，完善了提出的10号方案，最终拿出了4个备选方案：
　　一号方案：鸭式布局，腹部进气
　二号方案：鸭式布局，两侧进气
　三号方案：增加鸭翼面积，放宽静不稳定性　　四号方案：作为保险，减小鸭翼面积，回归静稳定布局（注：在当时，我们还没有“鸭式布局”这个说法，准确的说应该是“无尾加前翼”布局。）
　　现在我们看到的歼十，可以说是一号和三号方案的结合体，但要说明的一点事，此时的10号方案，跟我们现在看到的歼10，还是有很大差别的，比如当时的歼10鸭翼，是有锯齿的，进气道也是类似F16的椭圆形固定进气道，鸭翼面积也更小，翼身融合度也更低···等等
　　1982年4月，第二次选型会，按期在北京召开，此时，宋文骢带领611所的人带上四套方案，再次参加会议。
　 相比611这次的有备而来，601的10号方案，并没有太大的变化，在3个月时间里，601仅仅对歼13方案做了进一步的充实，并没有做太多的更改，依然是以歼13为基础发展而来的类似F16的常规边条布局，对于611的静不稳定鸭翼方案能不能搞出来，601是很不以为然的。
　　这次选型会，基本是601和611之间的PK，洪都已经彻底沦为酱油男了，此次611的汇报队伍一共有20多人，而601的队伍依然庞大，有30多号人，各类资料也非常齐全。
　　接下来的5天会议中，601和611对各自的10号新歼方案进行了细致汇报，并且对发动机，雷达，飞控，武器等等子系统进行了讨论。
　　会议第一天，由601先汇报，601的汇报时间，从上一次的2小时，充实到了第二次的10几个小时… …但总体与第一次论证会时没有区别。
　　会议第二天，轮到611汇报，宋文骢为主汇报人，宋文骢详细汇报了鸭式布局的涡原理，气动特征，技战术指标等等方面，并提出有腹部和两侧进气两种不同方案；而针对当时对“静不稳定布局”风险过大的质疑，宋文骢也提出了四号方案作为保险，也就是减小鸭翼面积，回归静稳定布局，作为后路。还提出假如飞控方面进展顺利，则可以加大鸭翼面积，在一、二号方案的基础上进一步提高静不稳定度，这就是三号方案。
　　五天的会议结果是，在场的专家和军队一致倾向于成飞611的鸭翼方案，尤其是军方，态度更是一边倒，而在航空口，“部分专家”对成飞方案，尤其是成飞方案中静不稳定布局，表示风险过大，从而转为支持601的方案，但这种意见，并没有得到大多数人的认同而始终归于少数派。
　　虽然会议上表现出一致的倾向性，但由于依然存在不同意见，外加一些不便明说，大家都懂的因素，第二次会议依然没有确定最终方案，会议决定，两家回去之后继续完善方案，择机再次召开选型会议。
　　事实上，第二次选型会议结束后，结果其实已经揭晓了，此时的601自己都已经不抱希望，而是指望私下的活动，当然，在之后的一年多时间，601和611两边，都没少私下活动，中国国情嘛，大家都懂的。
　　611汇报团队回到成都之后，全所上下自然更加振奋，由于军方和专家组已经表现出很强的倾向性，而且其他单位的参加会议的同志也私下对611方案表示赞同，所以611决定再接再厉，进一步继续完善方案。 而601那边，则已经心知肚明了，所以回去后也就没有再做太多的工作。
　　对于为何611的方案能够半路杀出个程咬金，战胜本已被内定的601方案呢？本人认为有几点原因：
　　第一，611方案各方面确实优于601方案；新歼选型，目标其实很明确，就是力争赶超F16，各家方案均以F16作为参考目标，气动布局也多参照F16（从三家方案都是腹部进气为主就知道了）。601方案脱胎于歼13，而歼13整体布局恰恰参考F16，可以说601方案是占得天时地利的，但601的保守最终让他付出了代价，歼13整体没有采用静不稳定布局，电传飞控，翼身融合等三代机的设计理念。设计之初，歼13是作为替代歼6的格斗机存在的，空军最初对歼13的要求中，有一条是“突出中低空，跨音速区间机动性，雷达可有可无”，一句“雷达可有可无”，就决定了歼13在设计理念上对超视距空战重视不多，可以说这是落后时代的。歼13总体布局参考F16却达不到F16的水准，况且在雷达，发动机，导弹，电子设备等子系统上与F16的差距显而易见，可以说歼13即使能够在2年前服役，也完全不可能达到F16的水准，更妄论赶超了。新歼赶超F16的目标，601方案是不可能达成的，这是601落败的根本原因。
　　而反观611方案，大胆采用当时还属新鲜事物的鸭式布局，属于“三代半”比较先进的布局，更加大胆的采用当时在国内还属于空白的静不稳定布局，虽然招致风险过大的质疑，但毫无疑问，军队对这种更加时髦的方案更加青睐。611还在研制歼9时，就将“拦射”概念，也就是超视距空战概念引入，在宋文骢的主持下，当时611对还属于新鲜事物的超视距空战进行了深入研究，对不同距离和角度下的超视距空战建立了详尽的数学模型，而这些成果，也直接被10号方案所继承。在第一次那场仅仅15分钟的汇报中，宋文骢就很聪明的从歼13方案的缺陷下手，从“未来空战怎么打”切入，来汇报自己的方案，指出歼13方案诸多落后于时代的缺陷，最终得以翻盘，不能不说，宋文骢的空军地勤出身，对空战有实际的理解，比闭门造车的书呆子们要强得多。
　　由此，军队选择风险虽大，但明显更有赶超F16希望的611方案，并表现出一边倒的态度，也是情理之中的。
　　第二，客观来讲，611具备601不具备的，对外合作的机会和成果。611和成飞一向在国内处于边缘地带，改革开放之后，被迫立足于对外合作和出口以求生存，从歼7M项目和英国马可尼公司合作开始，接触西方先进技术的机会要比601多得多，在歼10方案中，之所以敢大胆地提出静不稳定布局和先进火控系统的方案，客观是也是有对外合作作为保证的，事实上，611在后来歼10的设计中，和以色列，法国，俄罗斯进行了广泛的技术合作，歼10的全套航电和雷达，就是从以色列原装引进后加以国产化的产物，而在飞控，结构设计方面，以色列和法国也给予了重要的技术帮助，其中软件开发，人员培训甚至共同设计，都有。而反观601，则一门心思闭门造车，完全立足国内，整体方案必然保守，但此时的军队已经对国内航空业水准不抱任何幻想，由此抛弃601方案，也是情理之中的。
　　第三，也是一个原因，就是军队此时对601和沈飞的忍耐已经到达极限；军队对航空业，尤其是沈飞601一直存在严重不满，601穷极10余年之力搞出来的歼8，根本不堪使用，毛病一大堆，更要命的是，601从来不积极解决问题，而是习惯性的把责任推给军队。当年80年代初歼8白刚刚装备部队，时任歼8第一团团长的就是现任副总参谋长的马晓天将军，歼8装备部队后陆续发现操纵性差，尾翼震颤的毛病，而总师顾诵芬则把责任坚决推给部队，称这是飞行员操作不当造成的，后来官司闹大了，马晓天差点被解职转业，逼得马晓天当着空军司令的面和顾诵芬拍桌子大骂，才让顾诵芬勉强承认歼8设计有缺陷.. ..空军对601这种态度，早已深恶痛绝。
　　而在1984年大阅兵中，歼8由于技术问题，没能参加阅兵，部队火气非常大，以致时任国防部长的张爱萍将军说出“沈飞别搞其他的了，把歼8弄好就行了”这种话。在新歼选型中，军队已经很难再信任沈飞，转而扶持当时相对弱小但更有前途的成飞，也是必然之举。当时的军队和航空部，就有“要把成飞变成中国的达索”的说法，其中大力扶持之意，溢于言表。
　　虽然611方案事实上已经基本胜出，但这才是艰难道路的开始，歼10方案的激进，必然带来高风险，这一点上，航空口部分专家的质疑并不是没有道理的，中国当时完全没有接触过静不稳定布局和电传飞控，能不能搞下去没人知道。而601此时也对611能否把方案进行下去很不以为然，611承受的压力，丝毫没有因为竞标的胜出而有任何的减轻。
　　事实上，82年4月的选型会刚结束，航空部一位副部长就找到宋文骢，直截了当的问611对自己方案到底有没有把握。言下之意，就是你611必须给我摊牌，你是真心打算做出来，还只是在这里忽悠人。宋文骢当时给出了肯定的回答，一定能够搞出来！副部长这才放下心来。
　　除了航空口自己人的质疑，军队的态度也给611无形的压力，前面已经说过了，30多年惨不忍睹的经历，已经让空军对自己的航空工业不抱任何幻想，每一次吹牛放卫星和推卸责任的背后，就是空军进一步加深的失落和不信任，当然空军自身也有责任，但是本国航空工业的羸弱，确实大家都不得不认账的。当时的空军，已经很多次向中央提出要买幻影2000
，空军在之前详细考察了幻影2000，对这种既能高空高速截击，又能中低空格斗，还能对地攻击的先进战机心仪不已。葛文墉将军还亲身试飞了幻影2000，得出的结论是，幻影2000
在高空高速性能上和歼8差不多，但航电雷达非常先进，中低空机动性好，假如对方飞行员不犯错，我们“没有任何机会”，双方的谈判一度接近成交，双方都非常有诚意，但是法国人在价格上的坚持让他们付出了代价，邓小平亲自出面，会见时任法国总统密特朗，希望法国能给个友情价，但密特朗没有给邓小平这个面子，法国人坚持6万美元的单价，对当时的中国而言，无异于天价，当时准备的所有采购资金，只够买24架空机，这还不算配套武器和配件，最终这笔交易没有成功，而中国则转投了美国，才有了后来的“和平典范”，而相信当沈飞开始“和平典范”计划的时候，看成飞的眼神，已然应该充满了某种傲慢的不屑···
　　虽然幻影2000后来最终泡汤，但是对当时的宋文骢和航空部来说，这无异于军队对他们的表态——“你们搞不出，我就去找法国人买”，航空部副部长就坦率对宋文骢的说，空军很多次提出要买幻影2000，假如你的把握不大，就不要搞了，让空军去买幻影吧；而此时的宋文骢没有退路，他回答，空军要买是他们的事，我只管搞出来自己的方案。副部长问宋文骢最终方案出台还要多久？宋回答说2年，最终，副部长对宋文骢表示了支持，但要求宋文骢必须在一年时间内拿出最终方案！
　82年第二次选型会之后的整整1年内，宋文骢带着总体气动专业组的人始终忙着模型生产、风洞试验、数据处理、曲线绘制、结果分析、布局改进的循环中；先后完成了3期的高低速风洞试验、流谱观测试验。歼10的总体气动布局，就是在那时候打下的基础，包括复合扭转机翼的理论计算和工程化，都是这个阶段的完成的。
　　此外，在此期间，611在飞控，结构设计，航电设备方面和以色列、法国进行了广泛的合作，说到这里，就需要提一下以色列的LAVI“狮”式战机了，关于LAVI和歼10的关系，网上有很多流言，当然最终是莫衷一是，我只能说自己的观点，歼10和以色列的合作，主要集中在航电、雷达方面，歼10的雷达航电就是全套引进以色列产品之后国产化的，一部分结构设计以色列人有参与，飞控方面以色列有一些技术援助，但是必须明确一点，三代战机，飞控和气动是一体的，没有人能够把LAVI的飞控照搬到歼10上，事实上，LAVI的飞控核心是美国人写的，而且以色列人自己都没完成，歼10能抄什么？而在气动设计方面，LAVI本身就有严重的气动设计缺陷，近距耦合布局和10度后掠角的主翼设计，是的LAVI在高速飞行时又非常严重的姿态上仰问题，这也是LAVI最终被放弃的重要原因，这样一个半吊子方案，611根本看不上。以色列人对611的帮助，主要集中在雷达航电和PW1120发动机接口上（狮所用的PW1120发动机曾经是歼10的备选发动机之一）
　　其实，611飞控的入门老师，是法国人，达索和611在飞控方面的合作很早，可以说是611的启蒙老师，飞控方面，在国内，主要有三个技术流派，一是沈飞，师承毛子；二是西飞，师承英国；而第三个则是成飞，主要师承法国，在80年代航空业刚刚开放的时候，英国和法国在我国航空业对外交流中扮演了非常重要的角色，很多法国人的设计烙印一直保留到现在，不信的人可以看看歼10B和枭龙的垂尾电子舱，跟阵风的有多像。
　　在宋文骢带领611进行详尽方案设计的同时，国防工办也连续召开了一系列会议，讨论了机载电子设备、武器火控系统、辅机成品、试飞测试等等详细问题，并在1983年3月明确了飞机、发动机、武器火控系统、惯性导航系统、飞行控制系统、其他机载设备系统和复合材料几方面进行先期论证的项目、要求、负责单位、参加单位、完成日期。新歼项目子系统的先期研究，开始全面展开… …
　　在1983年9月，在北戴河召开了发动机选型会议，当时会议上有5种发动机备选，据说分别是：涡喷15、太行、通过燃机逆向测绘的F100、涡扇6改、TF41加力版，由于当时尚处中美蜜月期，有可能从美国买到发动机，所以在备选方案中，有TF41这样的“纯美国货”，但会议最终决定以涡喷15做为新歼的配套发动机，太行继续发展，做为未来的配套发动机（但事实却是，知道2011年的现在，我们依然没有见到配套太行的歼10装备部队···。）
　　新歼的配套发动机——涡喷15，是苏联P29涡喷发动机的仿制品，前面说过，中国在1979年通过秘密渠道用歼6从埃及换来了一架米格23MF，并对配用的P29涡喷发动机非常口水，于是立即上马开始仿制，两年后完成测绘，并开始进入仿制，涡喷15的指标很高，最大推力和后来的AL31FN一样，达到12.25吨。但是之后进入90年代，军队决定从俄罗斯引进AL31FN代替了涡喷15，由此涡喷15项目中止，据说当时已经试制出了一些部件，现在，这些部件正躺在某个角落，被岁月的尘埃所覆盖… …
　　新歼采用落后的涡喷发动机，可能是现在的人所不理解的，但是确实也反映出当时航空工业的无奈，涡扇6无疾而终，太行刚刚上马，还遥遥无期，即使在蜜月期，美国也不愿意出口军用大推力加力涡扇发动机，而愿意给一些J79这样的涡喷发动机和TF41无加力涡扇发动机用于教练机，而唯一的引进成果是70年代从英国引进的“斯贝”发动机，但推力小，技术落后，也不堪使用。开历史倒车用回涡喷，也是一个无奈的选择，也气得后来的空军副司令林虎将军破口大骂… …为后来一有机会就换发埋下了伏笔。
　　到1984年2月，航空部第三次召开新歼选型会，这一次国防科工委、空军、相关专家119名到会。结果没有任何悬念，611的鸭式布局方案获得一致好评，被确定为新歼方案。
　　84年5月，5月，国防科工委正式下达关于新歼研制总体单位定点问题的批复，确定新歼研制总体单位为611所和132厂。
　　国民党的税多，共产党的会多，这场历经2年的大PK，在大大小小开了上百场会之后，终于尘埃落定，611最终笑到了最后。
　　随后的84年6月，北京再次召开新歼方案论证会，宋文骢作方案汇报，并和空军最后商定了新歼的重要指标，审查确定了新歼的初步设计，空军对新歼的指标，要求很高，要求在2年装备部队，总体要达到F16和米格29的水准，既要突出中低空跨音速格斗性能，还要兼顾高空高速截击性能，要具备较强的超视距空战能力，较大的航程，较为先进的航电，还要兼顾对地打击能力，总之，空军想得到的要求，都提出来了。
　　1986年1月，邓小平对新歼研制作了批示：“我认为建议很重要，近期花钱也不多，拟可同意”，随后，国务院、中央军委联合发文，批准新歼研制，并列为国家重大专项，研制主体单位为成飞611所和132厂，项目代号10号工程！
　　就此，歼10正式开始了它漫长而曲折的诞生历程！ 
到现在为止，我觉得有必要帮大家理顺一下新歼方案的主要历程，让大家可以清晰的看到一个脉络：
　　1982年2月，在北京召开第一次方案评审会，611当时仅4人与会，临时被通知汇报方案，之后宋文骢用15分钟，把原内定计划打乱。
　　1982 年4月，在北京召开第二次新歼方案评审会，此时成飞有备而来，沈飞方案事实上已经落败。
　　1982年4月第二次选型会后，611所继续进行新歼方案的深入完善。
　　1983年3月开始，先期安排相关子系统开始论证和预研。
　　1983年9月，新歼发动机选型会召开，会议确定涡喷15为配套发动机，但太行继续发展。
　　1984年2 月，第三次选型会召开，611最终胜出。
　　1984 年5月，国防科工委正式下发文件，确定新歼研制总体单位为611所和132厂。
　　1984年6月，北京再次召开新歼方案论证会，和空军一起确定新歼指标，审查确定了新歼的初步设计。
　　1986年1月，邓小平对新歼作出肯定批复，之后，10号工程正式上马 。
1986年1月，10号工程正式上马之后，宋文骢就开始带领611团队开始了进一步设计，但首先，宋文骢做了一件在当时备受非议的事情，就是对当时的战机科研体制，进行了改革，具体说来，就是：
　　首先，建立设计师系统，系统分为3级：第一级为型号总设计师；第二级为系统总设计师；第三级为飞机一次配套新产品的总设计师、主任（主管）设计师。把参与研制的不同行业、部门的设计师都纳入系统管理。
　　其次，建立经济负责制。每一项成品必须坚持先有原理性试验、单个成品试验，再到地面系统试验、机上试验和飞行试验的做法，也就是说，成品不合格，就不给钱。
　　第三，推广应用计划评审技术。严格型号研制程序，编制各级网络图，从方案论证、初步设计、到发设计图和制造、总装几个阶段，每个阶段都必须进行评审，通过评审才能进入下一个阶段。
　　第四，组织重大技术攻关.......对直接影响整个飞机研制进程的技术问题，由总设计师系统组织攻关。
　　可以看出，上述改革措施，都是针对当时航空科研体系的弊病所针对性提出来的。航空装备是极为复杂的大型装备，不仅仅设计到主设计所，更有下面无数配套子系统的研制单位，以前的航空科研体系，虽说也有总设计师，但下面配套分系统的研制单位，和主机所一样属于航空部下属单位，大家平级，关系好的配合，关系不好的，眼皮一翻，你总师姓甚名谁？配套子系统成品研制不受总师掌握，极为随意，想怎么来怎么来，要搞新的子系统设备？可以啊，先把钱拿来再说，拿了钱再慢慢磨洋工，钱不够了打报告再要。相关产品性能不达标，不匹配，拖进度的现象层出不穷，主机所和分系统厂所又没有明确的上下级隶属关系，结果往往就是扯皮，扯来扯去一直到型号完蛋了事。


而宋文骢有针对性的进行改革，形成3级管理体系，各个子系统的研制和试验全程由主机所和总师掌控，不配合的，有权进行撤换，而经济负责制更是杜绝了之前不少子系统厂所只拿钱不干活的现象。这一套制度，是从歼7III的研制开始的，宋文骢在担任歼7III总设计师时，就提出了这一套改革方案，而这一套科研体系的改革，意义重大，歼10的研制历程中，始终没有因为质量出现大的问题。
　　但是，“理所应当”的，宋文骢遭受了前所未有的非议：卡脖子、要钱要权、搞独裁的说法纷至沓来，这也很好理解，以前习惯了先拿钱再干活，想怠工就怠工的，没事就爱扯皮的单位，自然不会习惯这一套。
　　但歼10的研制是举国工程，涉及到10个大分系统，100多个子系统，涉及航空、航天、冶金、电子、兵器、化工等十几个部委和行业，作为总师，没有强有力的手段作保障，如何能够统筹、指挥整个工程的推进呢？又如何保证相关分/子系统的研制进度和质量呢？以前太多的教训已经足够深刻了，宋文骢没有别的选择，非议不可避免，但这套改革能够换来10号工程的进度和质量，是值得的！
　　航空业内有个惯例，就是在一架飞机上，用到的新研制的产品比例，不能超过30%，否则这架飞机安全系数就会低到不可接受，而歼10要实现跨越式赶超，新品比例超过60%，用西方人的习惯，这架飞机根本就定不了型。但没有办法，航空业以前太过落后，假如降低风险，那就只能在性能上做出让步，那么我们战斗机赶超世界就依然是个梦想。
　　在歼10的研制历程中，来自各方的冷嘲热讽从来就没有少过，曾经有人这样问过宋文骢：“宋总啊，恕我冒昧，据我所知，搞一个型号飞机少则10年8年，多则10年20年，你今年已经50多岁了，年龄不饶人啊，这架飞机在你手里最终能设计定型吗？”这个问题意思很明白，言下之意就是你宋文骢可能到死都搞不成歼10，这基本上可以认为是红果果的挑衅了，而宋文骢的回答很有水平，“哈，这个问题有意思。我老宋还能活多少年，这架飞机能不能在我手里定型，我说了不算。但有一点可以肯定的是，通过这架飞机的研制，中国一大批现代飞机设计研制的人才肯定会成长起来，我们只要为他们铺好了路，到时候我老宋在不在没关系，自然会有比我宋文骢更高明的人来接着干。”
　　宋文骢，这位特务出身，从空军地勤成长起来的新中国航空设计师，是真正的民族脊梁！宋文骢，早年在云南做红色小特务，曾经只身跑到当地一个国民党保安团，策反国民党团长，当然很可惜没有成功 ···上级没发枪，宋文骢就拎着一把镰刀出任务。后来朝鲜战争爆发，宋文骢当上了空军地勤，亲身体验了那段惊心动魄的空战岁月，这段岁月，使得宋文骢对空战，对战机，有着更为感性和直观的认识。后来宋文骢成为新中国第一代本土年轻设计师，参与设计了新中国第一款自行设计的喷气式飞机——歼教一。宋文骢在工作当中表现的相当积极，他在601时，自己跑到所领导那里，要求成立一个专门主攻气动布局的气动小组，结果他成功了，并成为新中国第一个专供气动布局的专业小组的组长，歼7放大双发大改的方案（即后来的歼8），也是由他最早提出的。
　　但在那个年代，积极，或者是彪悍并不是一件好事，当时宋文骢正计划结婚，但单位在政审后认为他和夫人政治出身不相配，单位不同意他们结婚。但宋文骢没有妥协，他以和单位领导彻底闹翻的代价最终如愿以偿和夫人结为伉俪。但代价也很惨重，在随后的文化大革命中，宋文骢很快就被打成反革命，丧失了工作条件，每天在自己后院种菜度日 ···
　　直到1969年，601成都分所成立，此时的宋文骢，在601已经处于无人问津的地步了，宋文骢听说这个机会后，直接带着老婆打包了行李，没和任何领导打招呼就跟着去了成都····当然没有人追究他的行为，也没人关心这个人要去哪里。
　　随后，在601成都分所，宋文骢和同事一起，开启了歼9的研制，开启了611所的历史。611的诞生不易，生存更加不易，它偏于西南，无人问津，常年靠出口创汇过活。有订单，就有饭吃，没订单就饿肚子，和养尊处优的沈飞/601不一样，611和成飞没有铁饭碗，没有政策照顾和不停的这个那个的项目，它自己的一切都要靠争，靠抢，靠破坏所谓的行业潜规则···所以在歼7ⅡA被空军抛弃后，他们跑去找约旦人，靠约旦的订单保住了歼7M；所以在佩刀2计划搁浅之后，他们依然没有放弃项目，直到枭龙项目的重新启动；所以在新歼的竞标中，他们虎口夺食，没有给老大哥一丝面子。
　　这帮人，的确不容易···
　此时的歼10，从严格意义上来讲，还不是一架完全的第三代战机，跟现在的歼10也有很大差别。此时的飞机没有完全采用翼身融合设计；鸭翼面积不大，静不稳定度有限，机动性也不是太高；而发动机更是连根毛都看不到，整机动力水平还是大大的未知数。这架飞机究竟能达到什么水平，谁都说不准。歼10研制的难度，超乎想象。
　　除掉技术上的困难，611还面临一个问题，就是缺钱，这个问题曾经几乎让歼10夭折，其实在那个年代，缺钱不奇怪，不缺才奇怪，10号工程的总共投资只有40亿元人民币，这笔钱落实没落实不说，钱要用在10个分系统，上百家研制单位上，摊到611的已经所剩无几，还要拿出来对外合作（主要是法国和以色列），能够用到飞机研制上的钱，我不说你也知道有多少了，没钱就做不了试验，没钱就做不了方案，一分钱难倒英雄汉，歼10的研制，曾经一度因为资金问题，在原地踏步。这个问题直到80年代末时任中央军委副主席的刘华清将军考察成飞，成飞领导趁机说明情况后，才得到了刘华清首肯的资金支持。
　　没技术，我们可以攻关，甚至搞合作；没钱，我们可以熬，可以借；但假如失去军队的支持，歼10的命运就是有一个了，事实上，我再说一遍，从歼10开始研制的第一天起，非议就没有停止过，除了同行的冷嘲热讽看热闹，还有来自军队的不认同。
　　由于对本国航空业不抱希望，空军自己对歼10能不能搞出来基本抱着无所谓的态度，大力支持基本不用指望，不拆台就不错了。在86年10号工程正式上马之后，空军也开始了那个著名的“打脸工程”——“和平典范”工程，国内也称82工程。
　　82工程刚开始时，相信沈飞是一脸的得意，大笔的资金，对外交流的机会，似乎输掉新歼竞标根本不算什么，有后台才是王道，而此时成飞的歼10，却备受资金缺乏，没有上层支持的困扰，至今还躺在图纸上，国内航空业的老大，依然是我们沈飞！
　　然后，大家都知道发生了什么，政府被狠狠地打脸，军队被狠狠的打脸，航空部被狠狠地打脸，沈飞也被狠狠地打脸，而成飞的境况却并没有因为这件事有丝毫改善，因为空军没有和平典范，却又找到了一个新的G点——苏27。 
1989年，中央军委组织了一个庞大的军事代表团，前往前苏联考察、访问，目的是什么路人皆知，宋文骢也受邀参加了代表团。过程就不细说了，最终结果是，苏27SK这种前苏联的新锐战斗机给中国空军土鳖们的印象，不是震撼，也不是无比震撼，而是“无比无比无比震撼”，这种巨大无比，光内油量就超过歼7空重的战斗机，居然能够达到F16的机动水平，对当时的中国空军而言，惊为天人！以致后来有一个陆军将领在中国见到引进的苏27之后，向身边的随从感叹到：“这飞机这么大，能装一个班吧？”呵呵呵呵… …
　　于是，要苏27！！！要更多的27！几乎成为空军上下一致的的想法，歼10？搞了快10年，连跟毛都看不到，死一边去吧… …
　　代表团回到北京后，就有不少空军将领在会议上提出，苏27性能优异，要大量进口，而歼10搞到现在，连根毛都没见到，干脆下马别搞了，把钱省出来买苏27更合算。对于这种观点。刘华清将军笑而不语，而是先让在场的宋文骢发言，宋文骢起身解释道，苏27的确性能优异，但是和歼10相比，性能各有所长，苏27是替代不了歼10的，两者应该是相互配合。而刘华清点头赞许，然后才亮明观点：苏27再好，也是别人家的孩子，歼10无论如何，就是再困难，也要搞下去！
　　在最困难的岁月，刘华清将军，和空军副司令员林虎将军等少数有真才实学的将领，都对歼10给予了毫无保留的最为坚定的支持！没有他们，可能就没有现在的歼10了。
　　82工程和引进苏27之后，611感受到了前所未有的压力，的确，从82年开始，到89年，整整8年时间，歼10依然躺在图纸上，永远在方案论证、永远在预先研究，但就是看不到东西出来，有领导甚至直接说成飞搞歼10是“5分钱想上长城”根本是不切实际。面对这种情况，成飞决定不惜代价，先造出一架全金属样机，不管怎么样。先把东西摆出来，到时候见到了实物，争议自然平息。
　　全金属样机的制造，是歼10研制历程的一个重要转折点，工程师第一次能够将图纸上的东西变成实物，精确、实际的验证自己的设计和工艺，试飞员能够做到机舱中模拟操作，提出改进意见，为整机技术冻结创造良好条件。
　　决定作出之后，国防科工委和空军都表示了大力支持，到91年初，成飞已经完成发图，开始样机制造，在精心组织之下，到91年8月27日，样机组装完成。其实，此时的样机，还不能飞，只是一个精确的全尺寸模型，而且里面好多设备没有，就用木头刻的代替，甚至用纸盒子占着，管路没有就用绳子代替，总之，先弄出来再说。
　　就算只是这样，这个全金属样机对歼10研制的帮助，也是莫大的。空军副司令员林虎将军听说造好了样机，直接把空军各大军区的司令员全部叫到成飞来看样机，还亲自介绍这个飞机，这架颇具现代感的歼10让司令员们大为赞叹，这样一来，空军内部的争议就平息了不少（但这只是作战部队，而司令部的那群官老爷们的思想，还不是那么好扭转的）。
　　PS：此时的样机，跟现在的歼10依然差别很大，最显著的就是进气道还是F16式的椭圆形皮托管结构，这也是配套涡喷15发动机的结果。
　　眼看研制终于走向了正轨，却不想再次遇到问题——这次是老大难，发动机。
　　前面说过了，歼10的配套发动机是涡喷15，但是到90年代初，涡喷15依然在部件试制，距离仿制定型还遥遥无期，眼看歼10连样机都出了，发动机拖进度估计又要重蹈覆辙了。而此时，空军正好在计划从俄罗斯引进了第一批苏27，所以时任国防部长的张爱萍将军提出既然买了苏27，那干脆再配套多买点AL31F发动机，给歼10换上。但这个意见，成飞和航空部当时是坚决反对的，私下抱怨这又是外行领导内行，以为换发动机是换汽车轮胎么？歼10的设计从头到尾都是按涡喷15配套设计的，样机都出来了，这时候换发动机？又要修改设计，又要拖进度，还有完没完了？双方争执不下，最终刘华清将军拍了桌子，必须换！非换不可！没办法，刘副主席都拍桌子了，还能咋办？换吧···
　　1992年，宋文骢作为全权代表，前往俄罗斯进行AL31F的引进谈判，并签订了1台样机和数台试飞发动机的引进合同。为了适应歼10，AL31F做了若干改进，AL31F配套苏27战机，发动机机匣附件放在发动机上方，方便维护，但要配套歼10必须把机匣附件改到下放，此外还有一些小的技术细节进行了改进，改进后的型号被称为：AL31FN，也就是目前歼10的配套发动机。
　　而为了适应AL31FN，歼10做的改进更大，可以说基本又是一个推到重来。首先，AL31FN和涡喷15一个是涡扇，一个是涡喷，虽然最大推力一样，但推力曲线完全不同，原来的简单的不可调的椭圆进气道已经不能满足需要了，由于涡扇发动机高空性能不如涡喷，所以歼10换用了现在的矩形可调进气道，以保证各种高度和速度下的飞行性能；其次，AL31FN要比涡喷15长很多，所以后机身需要延长，相应的需要对整机重心做配平和调整，主翼翼根弦长也大大增加；由于换发，空军对歼10又提出了更高的要求，要求歼10要能够和苏27形成高低搭配，机动性要和苏27相当，这样一来又不得不对气动外形做小幅度更改以满足要求；另外，此时歼10也借鉴了很多米格设计局的设计，包括外置式双腹鳍，这些都是通过超7和米格设计局的合作中学来的。就这样，经过又一轮的设计更改，新歼10才有了现在歼10的造型，此时假如有全金属样机，那么这个样机的样子，已经和现在的歼10相差不多了。
　　到1994年6月，经过2年多的艰苦奋战，成飞完成了换发后歼10的全部设计工作，图纸全部完成，歼10的研制，开始进入新的阶段——原型机制造！
　假如你问宋文骢，当时研制歼10时，他最担心的是什么，他一定会说——飞控，假如你问他，鸭式布局的歼10设计最难点在哪里，他一定还会说——飞控。
　 什么是飞控？
　　首先要从静稳定和静不稳定两种布局说起，所谓静稳定，很好理解，就是飞机在飞行时，整机的状态是稳定的，这种飞机的气动焦点位于整机重心之后，理论上，在飞行过程中飞行员即使双手不握杆，飞机也能够自动调整飞行状态，保持稳定飞行，飞行曲线是一个正弦曲线，静稳定飞机飞行稳定性更好，但牺牲了机动性能；而静不稳定，则是要把气动焦点放在重心之前，这样机动性会大大增加，飞机变得更加灵活，但同时飞行状态也极端不稳定，传统的机械操作方式，是无法操纵静不稳定战机的，这就需要找一个飞行员的替代物，也就是电传飞控系统。
　　电传飞控简而言之，就是飞控计算机代替飞行员，以每秒十几次的频率自动解算飞行状态并自动控制翼面，保持飞行状态，而在飞行员操作舵面时，也跟传统机械传动不同，飞行员并不直接操作舵面，而是通过操作驾驶杆，飞控计算机自动判断出飞行员想要做什么动作，然后解算出舵面所需的运动量，再控制舵面做相应运动，也就是说，飞行员从始至终在通过飞控计算机操作飞机，而不是传统机械传动式的直接操作舵面，电传飞控的出现，使得静不稳定布局的控制成为可能，战机的机动性得以大大提高。而且电传飞控在操纵品质上拥有一个巨大的优越性，飞行员不必担心拉杆过猛而造成飞机姿态失控，飞控计算机能够自动设置一个操作上限，实现所谓的“无顾虑操作”。
　飞控系统的核心，就是飞控程序，和电脑程序一样，飞控程序是在地面编写的，飞控程序编写质量的好坏，直接影响到飞机本身的气动性能能否得到发挥。就像显卡驱动，一款好的驱动，能够挖掘硬件的最大潜能，而不好的驱动，则会浪费一块好显卡，飞控的道理也是类似的。
　　除去静不稳定布局，我们还要多说一下“涡升力”，什么是涡升力？简而言之，就是尖锐而薄的翼面在飞行过程中，会把经过的气流切开，而被切开的气流会形成一个高速脱体旋涡。高速脱体涡空气压力很低，假如让脱体涡吹过主翼上表面，那么翼面的上下压力差就会大大增加，从而提高整个机翼的升力（如果这个都不理解，请百度飞机飞行原理），提高飞机机动性。而这种由脱体涡吹过主翼形成的额外升力增益，就叫做“涡升力”。有飞机设计师说过，飞机气动的进化，就是围绕涡升力而来的，在二代布局中，没有涡升力这个概念，而在三代机中，F16和苏27的小边条，F18和枭龙的大尖拱边条，还有双风和歼10的鸭翼，目的都有一个，就是作为涡流发生器，在飞行中切开气流，激起强烈的脱体涡，吹过主翼，从而大大提高升力进而增强机动性。而四代布局，则更进一步，这里就不细说了。
　　但是，涡升力具有强烈的非线性，无法用数学公式做线性计算，也是传统机械操作模式无法控制的，所以二代机无法利用涡升力，而只有三代机运用电传飞控之后，通过计算机的高速运算，才让涡升力的有效控制成为可能。所以说，三代机标准中的“先进气动布局”和“电传飞控”这两条同时出现，不是没有原因的。
　　回到鸭式布局，它的难点，就在于鸭式布局的鸭翼本身既是涡流发生器，又是配平和俯仰操纵翼面，在鸭式布局中，鸭翼置于主翼之前，除了激起涡流吹过主翼表面外，还要作为俯仰操纵面控制飞机，这本身就是极其复杂的。而且鸭式布局的小展弦比机翼本身也会切出涡流！鸭翼脱体涡和主翼脱体涡耦合，相互干扰，两个非线性的涡流相互干扰和融合，不用说你也知道这有多么的复杂。在鸭式布局上，涡流耦合导致的升力非线性要与操纵面的角度偏转配合好，难度就非常非常大，存在非常多的门限，搞不好，就会摔飞机。
　　可以说，鸭式布局的最大难点，就在于飞控，首先我们看看国外另外几款典型的鸭式布局，是如何解决问题的，台风，为了解决涡流干扰和配平操纵之间的矛盾，直接把鸭翼扔的远远的，形成“远距耦合”，这种布局下，由于距离太远，鸭翼涡流对主翼的干扰已经很小了，但同样意味着台风放弃了涡升力这种有益的升力增量，鸭翼远离重心，仅仅作为俯仰操纵翼面。所以台风超音速性能优异，而亚音速性能一般。
　　而阵风，采用了相反的思路，把鸭翼放的与主翼很近，甚至有重合，这样的布局，鸭翼涡流和主翼涡流耦合后会非常强烈，带来很高的升力增量，但同时，由于距离太近，力臂过短，产生的力矩过小，阵风鸭翼的俯仰配平效果很差。阵风整体沿用了幻影2000无尾三角布局的操纵模式，其实可以认为阵风是幻影2000的发展，阵风的鸭翼，可以看作是一个可动的大的涡流发生器，而不是一个有效的操纵翼面。阵风与台风相反，是超音速性能一般，亚音速性能强悍。
　　说到这，也许你会发现，其实欧洲双风都是在回避问题，回避鸭翼非线性涡流和配平操纵之间的矛盾，而瑞典的JAS-39，是一个正面解决问题的例子，只不过不是太成功罢了。
　　JAS39采用“中距耦合”，也就是不回避矛盾，正面设计，同时兼顾涡升力和配平操纵，但是很杯具的是，由于飞控编写水平差，飞机根本无法正常起飞，连出事故，最后找万能的美帝出马，编写飞控，最终美帝大能，完美解决问题。不要以为美帝不用鸭翼是因为技术不够，而纯粹是人家懒得麻烦。
　　而歼10，和JAS39一样，没有选择回避问题，而是采用正面设计，中距耦合，兼顾涡升力和配平操纵，歼10的鸭翼面积是所有鸭式布局中最大的，说明其静不安定度更大，敏捷性更高，同时耦合涡流也会更强烈，设计难度也更大。更厉害的是，歼10的鸭翼可以差动，体现出来的对左右涡流的主动控制能力，除了美帝的F15S/MTD验证机，没有见到第二个。
　　可以说，歼10的气动布局，在三代机中，是数一数二的，而其背后，则需要高超的飞控编写能力。宋文骢一直说自己最担心的是飞控，并不是没有原因的。
　　最终，对飞控的担心并没有成为现实，在飞控天才杨伟的带领下，飞控设计团队最终完美的编写出一整套飞控，歼10的飞行品质之高令飞过的飞行员都赞叹不已，之前最为担心的部分，却成为了歼10最为令人称道的地方，可以说，这一点上，杨伟和他的设计团队功不可没。而杨伟这个15岁上大学，21岁就研究生毕业的天才，也成为了继宋文骢之后的611的扛鼎者，顺便说一句，歼20的总师，就是杨伟。
在1994年6月完成全部设计图纸后，歼10原型机的建造于1995年8月开始，原型机制造处于高度保密状态，装配车间全封闭，任何外人都无法进入，成都的夏天大家都知道，当时没有空调，可算是苦了成飞那帮人了… …
　　到1997年6月2号，新机完成建造，刘华清将军亲自为新机剪彩，接下来，就是一连串地面试验，为首飞做准备了。
　　然而在之后的地面试车中，却出现了意外情况，第一次地面发动机试车后，机务员却发现发动机叶片被打坏了，经过检查，发现原来是机体加工时，有细小的金属碎屑没有清理干净，在发动机强大的吸力作用下，从机体缝隙中被吸了出来，打到发动机叶片上，造成损坏。之后132厂组织人力做了一次彻底检查，但第二次试飞之后，依然发现发动机叶片和进气道被打坏，这下事情闹大了，611连夜发出20多张图纸改进，封堵相关缝隙了通道，132厂从上到下进行地毯式排查，等到第三次试车，终于没问题了… …
　　在一连串地面测试之后，歼10要开始高速滑行测试，高滑之后，很快就可以首飞了，但是谁都没想到，这个高滑测试，居然成了一个棘手的问题。在第一次高滑测试时，设计人员就发现歼10居然会跑偏，而且找不到原因！无数次高滑测试，能想到的原因都找了一遍，就是解决不了，依然跑偏，这个看似简单的问题居然足足困扰了设计人员半年之久！后来，还是修改了三行飞控程序，起飞时改用副翼控制，最终解决了问题。
　　完成全部地面测试科目之后，1998年3月12日，首飞指挥部决定首飞！当时已经邀请了很多军队和航空口的大领导到场观看，然而就在这个节骨眼上，成飞一个名叫张凤贵的机械员突然发现发动机启动过程中机体漏下了三滴油。这时候离首飞只有十几个小时了，到底飞不飞？不飞？领导都已经到了成都，集体放领导鸽子？飞？带病飞，出事了怎么办？最终经过激烈争吵，指挥部决定再次推迟首飞时间，排查故障。结果，发现是由于俄方问题，发动机改装过程中有几个工艺孔没堵上，结果造成漏油，花了12天，解决了问题。而发现漏油的那个张凤贵，也被人戏称为“张三滴”，哈哈~~
　　最终，1998年3月23日，歼10完成了腾空一跃，首飞飞行员是雷强，这个网上已经有很多介绍了，我就不费口水了。
　　歼10一共建造了6架原型机，分别是01~~06号机，原型机编号为100X，10代表歼10，第三位0表示0批次原型机，而X则是1到6，代表第几架原型机。
　　1001号机，第一架原型机，主要用于气动验证和飞行性能测试，由于超负荷飞行，01号机很快就到了使用寿命退役，现在保存在小汤山航空博物馆；
　　1002号机，静力试验机，构型和1001号一样，完成静力试验后修复，现在是中航工业大厦门前的标志性塑像；
　　1003号机，第二架用于飞行性能试验的飞机，后期也有承担霹雳11的试飞任务，还有部分对地攻击科目和空中加油科目，03号机是亮相最多的一家原型机，这架飞机现在依然在阎良试飞基地执行科研试飞任务；
　　1004号机，主要执行火控系统试飞
　　1005号机，承担飞行测试任务，火控系统试飞和各种电子系统的测试
　　1006号机，最后一架原型机，和05号机一样，也是主要承担各种火控和电子系统的试飞。
　　在1001号机试飞的时候，设计人员发现实际数据和设计值有比较大的差距，原因就是歼10原先配置的是涡喷15发动机，而换装AL31FN后，由于AL31FN要比涡喷15直径大，所以后机身尺寸大大加粗，整个屁股隆起，于是飞行阻力增加；而且虽然AL31FN和涡喷15最大推力一致，但是实际上，涡扇和涡喷的推力曲线完全不同，尤其在高空，涡扇发动机的效率要低于涡喷，所以造成高空高速科目，1001号机的实际数据要比设计值差不少。
　　出现这个问题之后，宋文骢提出趁飞机还未定型，再次修改设计，当然，还是存在不同意见，可以理解，都到了这个地步，又要修改设计，谁都不愿意。但是宋文骢决心已定，一定要达到设计目标！于是，歼10再次修改设计，具体措施就是：对后机身进行瘦身，修形处理；把机翼动作筒做半埋处理，减少阻力；减小飞机表面突起物的迎风，降低阻力；进一步提高机体表面质量，还是减少阻力。
　　通过一系列以减阻为目的的改进，歼10的飞行数据终于达到了设计值，这批修改设计的歼10有两架用于试飞，分别是1013和1016号机，第三位数1，表示试生产型。
　　在歼10首飞成功之后，宋文骢就将试飞组织工作交给了杨伟，自己则继续带领气动设计小组，开始了下一代战机气动设计的摸索，最终，宋文骢提出了“小展弦比升力体鸭式布局”，通过机头涡、前边条涡、鸭翼涡、边条涡、主翼涡等诸多涡流的耦合，达到了空前的气动性能，而这个布局，也进而发展成了现在的歼20。
　　而杨伟在出色组织试飞工作的同时，领导设计了歼10的双座型歼10S，歼10S的设计是在单座型歼10首飞之后才提出的，整个项目军队只给了3年时间，时间非常紧张。但是在杨伟的出色领导下，歼10S成为了中国战机研制历史上第一个“不拖进度，不降指标”的项目。杨伟的领导才能和成飞611的实力，由此可见一斑。
　　在歼10试飞的时期，正是空军对苏27最为迷恋的时期，当时引进的苏27和苏30强大的性能让空军心醉不已，当时，“要两妻，要更多的两妻”“要打赢，要30”的说法是空军上下一致的看法，对歼10，除了刘华清，林虎等少数将领的坚定支持外，其余大部分将领对歼10并不看好，甚至在歼10首飞之后，依然有“把歼10下马，把钱剩下来买苏27”的说法，而且为数不少，当时的空军，无论训练还是风气，都不是现在的这支空军，买苏27，既好又快，还能大拿毛子的回扣，何乐而不为呢？
　　但是在1999年，江CORE在一次偶然的机会，考察了成飞，而成飞也抓住这次千载难逢的机会，雷强把当时首飞不久的歼10飞出了极限性能，江CORE对这款中国人自己设计的战机的优异性能惊叹不已，当即表示要钱给钱要人给人，全力支持歼10。而很不巧的是，就在江CORE回北京不久，空军就有人打报告，建议下马歼10，转而采购苏27，结果可想而知，江哥的愤怒在当时拥有一击必杀效果，空军的将领们见状立即转向，开始支持歼10了···
　　在21世纪初，歼10依然在试飞中暴露了诸多问题，空军对歼10最终性能还是心中无数，苏27，还是正牌。此时，刘亚洲这个有名的大嘴巴到成飞考察，跟几个试飞员聊了起来，说起歼10的性能如何，几个试飞员当即表示，歼10脚踩苏27，拳打苏30，刘亚洲走后把这些话说给了附近一支装备苏27的部队，结果27部队当即表示对方在扯淡。就这样，双方约定了一场打擂台，其实，这时候歼10还在试飞，跟装备多年的苏27打擂台，是不公平的。但以雷强为首的试飞员依然信心十足，因为他们心里清楚，苏27在歼10面前，就是渣渣···这场PK，一共两架歼10，对面4架苏27，过程不说，我也不清楚，直接说结果吧，4:0，苏27全部被击落，歼10毫发无损。
　　这次对抗结果，让空军对歼10刮目相看，其实，歼10还创造过更夸张的战绩，一次空军内部对抗，依然是2架歼10对抗4架苏27，结果歼10僚机半路故障，退出了演习，但歼10长机没有返航，而是1打4，最后让人大跌眼镜，最后4架苏27全部被击落…. ….
　　歼10，是目前空军装备战机中的空战王者！
　　在2003年，歼10还在试飞时，空军就决定先期装备少量试用，这开了一个先河------边试飞边定型边装备的先河，除了歼10，还有一款战机是没定型即装备的，就是枭龙，不能不说，这是客户对成飞的信任。
　　最终，在2003年12月25日圣诞节，徐勇凌完成了最后一个架次的试飞，歼10的整体试飞历时近6年，终于圆满结束!
　　2004年4月13日，歼10通过国家设计定型审核，正式定型！！！
这款脱胎于歼9，从82年开始设计，86年正式立项的战机，历经20余载，最终修成正果。在歼10的研制历程，伴随着中国航空工业的成长，也伴随着空军的转变，可以说，歼10是改革开放以来中国军事装备发展历程的缩影，悲壮而艰辛。
　　目前，歼10共计装备了空1师，空2师，空3师，空44师（首批装备歼10的部队），空24师，空9师，海航4师共计7个整编团，另外还有试训中心一个大队，八一表演队一个大队，总计装备数量超过220架，年均装备数量接近30架　　　　装备部队的歼10，表现出色，歼10空战能力出色，飞行品质极佳，深受部队好评，在历次演习对抗中，歼10都取得了很好的成绩，尤其是首批装备歼10的空44师131团，从西南边陲一支三流部队，一跃成为空军中数一数二的尖子部队，装备对战斗力的有益提升，体现的非常典型。由于在军事训练中的突出表现，131团被中央军委授予“模范歼击机团”荣誉称号，这对一支歼击机部队而言，是莫大的荣誉。
　　歼10A的改进型歼10B目前正在阎良做最后的试飞定型工作，预计2012年开始就会有第一批少量歼10B装备部队试用，而歼10B也不是歼10系列的最后一个改进型号，更多的歼10改进型号正在酝酿和进行当中！​

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## StraightEdge

Akatosh said:


> Interesting excerpt from famous British defence news service Shephard media:
> 
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> Pakistan invigorates its fighter fleet | Shephard
> 
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> Pakistani social media exploded into rapture with news of JF-17 Block III and J-10C fighters joining the PAF this year.
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> 
> www.shephardmedia.com



No idea about shephardmedia, but 1 thing for certain is that Rafale is twin engine, also lot more power. So obviously it will have higher radar performance etc., Comparing J10 to F16 makes sense, but not against Rafale or other twin engine jets.

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## Cool_Soldier

above article is personal view of writer without giving any evidence or arguments related to comparison of J10 C and Rafale fighters.
Yes, it is true both belong to different class.
Twin engine and single engine.
However, we did in the past and we will din future with minimum capability to tackle enemy power.


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## Rafi

StraightEdge said:


> No idea about shephardmedia, but 1 thing for certain is that Rafale is twin engine, also lot more power. So obviously it will have higher radar performance etc., Comparing J10 to F16 makes sense, but not against Rafale or other twin engine jets.



The Raphael two engines have less power than single engine J10C.

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## PurpleButcher

luciferdd said:


> 猛龙诞生记​
> 歼10的诞生，要从1981年开始···
> 在1981年年底，时任国防科工委副主任的邹家华向邓小平建议，开始搞新一代歼击机，预计初期投资在5亿元，在之后形成的正式报告上，邓小平批示“新歼项目较为重要，前期投资5亿左右，目前花钱也不多，拟同意”，就此，新一代歼击机项目正式提上议事日程。
> 当时的中国空军，不是惨，也不是非常惨，而是非常非常惨，由于长期以来国内航空工业积贫积弱，外加当时的空军也是个百年不遇的极品，所以航空武器装备水平一直是个巨大的杯具。虽然早在1964年就由沈飞组装成功了第一架米格21/歼7，但是初期暴露的大量问题和历次政治运动的冲击，使得歼7在长时间内根本没有发挥作用，时任空军司令员吴法宪（这个更是极品中的极品）居然喊出“歼7是活棺材”“宁愿歼6不要歼7”“歼6万岁”等等口号 ···直到1977年邓小平重新上台，主持国防工作会议，才提出“要更新空军装备，要停掉歼6，大力装备改进歼7替代歼6”，而之后四项改进的歼7Ⅱ到1979年才定型，而歼8白天型也是1980年才刚刚定型，直到在80年代初，空军装备的歼7和歼7I总共不过几十架，数千架战机的主体依然是战后第一代水平的歼6，还有大量亚音速的歼5，甚至到80年代中期，具备“全天候作战能力”的歼6甲，依然是“先进战机”，用来换装尖子部队 ···与此同时，美国空军已经装备第三代的F15和F16上千架，美国海军的F14也装备10余年了，苏联的米格29也已经批量服役，苏27也即将开始进入空军和防空军服役，面对此情此景，真不知道还在幻想当年中国国土防空无比坚固的同学，是哪里来的如此自信？
> 80年代初，属于中美关系的蜜月期，当时中美军事合作非常热络，黑鹰直升机、LM2500燃气轮机、反炮兵雷达等等大家知道的和不知道的武器，都是当时引进的。甚至美国有把中国吸纳为第16个北约成员国的建议，而中国也借机考察了幻影2000，F16和豹2坦克，都认真的进行了谈判，而美国也建议向中国销售F16，甚至F15！
> 但是，邓公当年并没有选择F16，不仅仅因为美国供应的是缩水版的F16/79（换了J79涡喷发动机，飞行性能大降），跟重要的是，邓公从政治角度考虑，拒绝了这宗交易，其中的政治考量在这里我就不多加讨论了。总之，邓公依然下决心，研制自己的新一代歼击机，邓公确实堪称一代伟人。真不知道那些大骂邓公是买办误国的极左们，脑子里到底装了些什么。
> 在新歼研制计划敲定之后，空军和国防科委随后对新歼击机的技术指标提出了要求，总体要求是：2年左右服役，空战性能要比歼8好，要优于米格23，争取达到F16的水平，也就是说，当时新歼的设计目标，就是要求以苏联米格23为假想敌，力争达到当时正风靡一时的F16的水平。
> 在1982年年初，由军队，国防科委和航空部主持，开始第一轮方案论证会。
> 其实对新歼项目，各个厂所都有预研，但当时主要的方案是沈飞的歼13方案和洪都的强6衍生方案。沈飞歼13方案留到后面说，先说一下强6方案：
> 强6是一款后变掠翼的强击机，技术来源是1979年通过秘密渠道从埃及换来的一家米格23MF，中国空军对米格23的后变掠翼技术非常感兴趣，于是将技术分解交与洪都仿制，但是由于各种原因强6最终下马，但之后陆孝彭和洪都设计团队以强6为基础继续改进，把它改成了歼击机方案，也参与了方案论证，但是由于洪都本身实力有限，外加强6方案固有的结构复杂，重量大，可靠性差的弱点，一开始，洪都方案就不被人报以希望。
> 总共只有两个方案，而洪都的方案又不被人看好，这样一来，沈飞歼13，在当时事实上也就已经被内定为胜出方案了。
> 歼13方案，是由沈飞“2号任务”衍生而来的方案，歼13方案最早其实从1971年歼8首飞之后就开始了研制，当时空军对刚刚首飞的歼8性能不满意，尤其对其空战格斗性能非常吐槽。根据越南战争中的教训，空军认为需要研制一种轻小灵活，中低空格斗性能优秀的战机，用来取代歼6，是一款类似于早期型F16的格斗战斗机。这个项目当时被称为“2号任务”，由沈飞和601研制。
> 沈飞/601在设计过程中大量参考了F16的气动布局，也就是常规边条翼布局，最初发动机计划采用正在研制的涡扇6（和在研的歼9使用同一款），但是1979年涡喷15项目立项之后，又计划改用涡喷15，但随着进入80年代后国民经济调整，项目没有进行下去，于1981年3月下马，在1982年年初的第一次论证会上，沈飞方案就是在歼13的基础上完善、丰富的。客观来说，歼13方案的研制基础是扎实的，是一个现实的，的确可以被造出来的一个方案。
> 说到这里，还没有我们的主角成飞什么事，因为当时确实没他什么事，当时的成飞和611，刚刚经历了歼9项目的惨败，正在一门心思抓着歼7Ⅲ这根救命稻草。611所，这个1969年才由“601成都分所”独立而来的年轻设计所，和132成都飞机制造厂一起偏于西南一隅，资历浅人脉弱，一向姥姥不疼，舅舅不爱。这次新歼论证会，航空部压根也没通知611拿出方案参加，只是临时通知611，来4个人到北京参加评审会，帮忙参与评审各家方案。当时宋文骢（后来的歼10总设计师）还在011基地（后来的贵飞）做歼7Ⅲ的技术交底工作，得到通知后就回到成都，带上三个人出差北京，但是宋文骢留了一个心眼，就是让同事把611的新歼鸭翼方案的资料也带上了。PS：个人认为，宋文骢其实可能已经预感到，此行北京可能不仅仅是旁听评审会这么简单。
> 说到这里，相信大家也猜到了，宋文骢带上的这个鸭翼方案，就是后来的歼10。其实，歼10，可以看做是歼9项目的延续，最早的歼10方案，实际上也是直接由歼9方案衍生而来的。歼9项目，是和歼8一起，作为歼7的后续机型被提出来的。在1964年成功仿制米格21/歼7上天之后，航空部就开始考虑歼7的后续机型问题。当时技术人员提出了两种方案：一是气动布局不做大改，在歼7基础上放大改双发；另一个则是气动布局大改，沿用单发，发动机使用在研的涡扇6。这两个方案，前者就是后来的歼8，而后者就是歼9。值得一提的是，第一个歼7放大改双发方案最早的提出者，恰恰就是时任601气动组组长的宋文骢。最早，歼8和歼9两个项目并行，但当时601根本没有能力并行两个项目，处于控制风险的考虑，技术保守的歼8方案被作为主攻方案重点保障，并在1971年很快上天。而歼9项目，当时只得到了601所大约十分之一的研制力量，事实上几乎不可能成功。后来沈阳601所成立成都分所，就直接把研制歼9的小组直接调去了成都。而这个601成都分所，也就是后来的成飞611所了，他们当时的任务，就是继续那个歼9项目。
> 但是这个歼9，却成了新中国航空的一个极为深刻的教训，航空口和军队外行领导内行，瞎指挥瞎折腾，政治挂帅不顾科学规律的老毛病在歼9的研制过程中被表现的淋漓尽致。歼9项目前后先后3次更改设计指标，项目五次上马六次下马，光主方案就有6、7种，各种更改设计方案更是无以计数。经过前后十多年的反复折腾，歼9最终在1981年下马了事，连同涡扇6和霹雳4中距导弹一起完蛋，成为了一个深刻教训。但塞翁失马焉知非福，为了满足军方极高的技术指标，设计人员大胆采用了当时相当时髦的“抬式布局”（也就是鸭翼布局），而在歼9的反复折腾中，611所也对鸭翼布局做了很深的研究，把能做的鸭翼/主翼匹配方案都做了个遍，由此对鸭翼布局有了很深刻的理解，这种对鸭式布局的理解，在世界范围上来说，也是首屈一指的。可以说，没有失败的歼9，就没有后来的歼10，也不会有现在风光无限的611所。
> 空军要搞新歼的消息，其实611所也早有耳闻，虽然没有接到提交方案的通知，但611还是在私下搞出了一个自己的方案，以备不时之需，而这个私下里搞出来的方案，也成了后来扭转局面的关键。
> 可以说，机会只会给有准备的人，611的执着换来了近20年后歼10的腾空一跃。
> 宋文骢一行四人来到北京后，下榻到总装招待所，虽说他们是来参加“方案评审”，但是谁都知道，他们只是过来打打酱油的，而对面沈飞601的汇报团，有整整30多号人… …
> 但是谁没有想到的是，当天晚上，时任航空部军机局副局长的王若松突然到房间找到宋文骢，开口就问611是不是也有一个新歼方案？并要求在明天的评审会上做一个汇报。宋文骢一下子懵了，因为出发前根本没有人通知611拿方案参加评审会。具体其中有何玄机？抑或是611的领导在宋文骢还在半路的时候跟航空部打了个小报告？这些现在都已经无从考证了，呵呵~~不过最终，王副局长还是为611争取到了15分钟的时间，在评审会休息的间隙对自己的鸭翼方案进行汇报。
> 而这不起眼的15分钟，开始了一场戏剧性的翻盘。
> 由于事先毫无准备，611的四个人啥都没有，宋文骢告诉另外三名同事，去隔壁兄弟单位的房间临时借几张明胶片和绘图工具，把一些重要图形、曲线和参数画在明胶片上，而汇报的内容，宋文骢则自己想办法。到第二天，611连个模型都没有，也只能用幻灯片来凑合着汇报了。
> 第二天，在沈飞和洪都汇报的间隙，宋文骢上台汇报鸭翼方案，他只有15分钟，和几张加夜班搞出来的幻灯片，随后，宋文骢从未来战争的形态和需求入手，提出新歼要强调机动性，敏捷性，要有中距拦射，要有电子对抗等等….开始了评述自己的方案，当时他具体讲了些什么，已经无从可知，但结果却是，全场热烈鼓掌，在座所有人都对这个鸭翼方案惊艳不已，表现出浓厚的兴趣，本来已经一边倒内定的沈飞方案，开始出现变数。
> 会议从16号开到了25号，会议上对新歼的气动布局，技战术指标，飞控，配套武器，雷达航电等细节进行了细致的讨论，最终会议决定，会议暂不确定新歼方案，601和611两家继续回去完善各自方案，3个月后再次召开论证会。
> 就这样，611出人意料的逆转，开始和601站在了同一起跑线上。
> 当宋文骢开完会回到611所并把会议情况做了通报之后，611全所振奋，611领导当即宣布集中全所一切力量，不惜代价的进一步完善方案，备战下一轮方案评审。
> 据下一次评审会只有短短3个月时间，而事实上611的10号方案还远没有601的10号方案完善，诸多设计还处于设想阶段。611的方案脱胎于之前下马的歼9，虽说歼9在研制过程中对鸭式布局进行了上万次吹风，但具体到歼10方案，如果要进一步完善，仍需要上万次吹风，短短三个月时间，对611所来说是个严峻的考验。
> 但庆幸的是，位于西南的与611所同期建设起来的庞大风洞群，给611完善方案提供了基础，宋文骢来到位于绵阳安县的风洞基地，却发现基地的试验已经排满，而时间只有3个月，无奈之下，宋文骢和611领导找到基地领导开后门，一番软磨硬泡外加“威逼利诱”之后，基地领导最终同意611利用晚上的时间开夜车，尽量配合工作。
> 就在这3个月中，611集中了全所能够集中的所有资源，完善了提出的10号方案，最终拿出了4个备选方案：
> 一号方案：鸭式布局，腹部进气
> 二号方案：鸭式布局，两侧进气
> 三号方案：增加鸭翼面积，放宽静不稳定性　　四号方案：作为保险，减小鸭翼面积，回归静稳定布局（注：在当时，我们还没有“鸭式布局”这个说法，准确的说应该是“无尾加前翼”布局。）
> 现在我们看到的歼十，可以说是一号和三号方案的结合体，但要说明的一点事，此时的10号方案，跟我们现在看到的歼10，还是有很大差别的，比如当时的歼10鸭翼，是有锯齿的，进气道也是类似F16的椭圆形固定进气道，鸭翼面积也更小，翼身融合度也更低···等等
> 1982年4月，第二次选型会，按期在北京召开，此时，宋文骢带领611所的人带上四套方案，再次参加会议。
> 相比611这次的有备而来，601的10号方案，并没有太大的变化，在3个月时间里，601仅仅对歼13方案做了进一步的充实，并没有做太多的更改，依然是以歼13为基础发展而来的类似F16的常规边条布局，对于611的静不稳定鸭翼方案能不能搞出来，601是很不以为然的。
> 这次选型会，基本是601和611之间的PK，洪都已经彻底沦为酱油男了，此次611的汇报队伍一共有20多人，而601的队伍依然庞大，有30多号人，各类资料也非常齐全。
> 接下来的5天会议中，601和611对各自的10号新歼方案进行了细致汇报，并且对发动机，雷达，飞控，武器等等子系统进行了讨论。
> 会议第一天，由601先汇报，601的汇报时间，从上一次的2小时，充实到了第二次的10几个小时… …但总体与第一次论证会时没有区别。
> 会议第二天，轮到611汇报，宋文骢为主汇报人，宋文骢详细汇报了鸭式布局的涡原理，气动特征，技战术指标等等方面，并提出有腹部和两侧进气两种不同方案；而针对当时对“静不稳定布局”风险过大的质疑，宋文骢也提出了四号方案作为保险，也就是减小鸭翼面积，回归静稳定布局，作为后路。还提出假如飞控方面进展顺利，则可以加大鸭翼面积，在一、二号方案的基础上进一步提高静不稳定度，这就是三号方案。
> 五天的会议结果是，在场的专家和军队一致倾向于成飞611的鸭翼方案，尤其是军方，态度更是一边倒，而在航空口，“部分专家”对成飞方案，尤其是成飞方案中静不稳定布局，表示风险过大，从而转为支持601的方案，但这种意见，并没有得到大多数人的认同而始终归于少数派。
> 虽然会议上表现出一致的倾向性，但由于依然存在不同意见，外加一些不便明说，大家都懂的因素，第二次会议依然没有确定最终方案，会议决定，两家回去之后继续完善方案，择机再次召开选型会议。
> 事实上，第二次选型会议结束后，结果其实已经揭晓了，此时的601自己都已经不抱希望，而是指望私下的活动，当然，在之后的一年多时间，601和611两边，都没少私下活动，中国国情嘛，大家都懂的。
> 611汇报团队回到成都之后，全所上下自然更加振奋，由于军方和专家组已经表现出很强的倾向性，而且其他单位的参加会议的同志也私下对611方案表示赞同，所以611决定再接再厉，进一步继续完善方案。 而601那边，则已经心知肚明了，所以回去后也就没有再做太多的工作。
> 对于为何611的方案能够半路杀出个程咬金，战胜本已被内定的601方案呢？本人认为有几点原因：
> 第一，611方案各方面确实优于601方案；新歼选型，目标其实很明确，就是力争赶超F16，各家方案均以F16作为参考目标，气动布局也多参照F16（从三家方案都是腹部进气为主就知道了）。601方案脱胎于歼13，而歼13整体布局恰恰参考F16，可以说601方案是占得天时地利的，但601的保守最终让他付出了代价，歼13整体没有采用静不稳定布局，电传飞控，翼身融合等三代机的设计理念。设计之初，歼13是作为替代歼6的格斗机存在的，空军最初对歼13的要求中，有一条是“突出中低空，跨音速区间机动性，雷达可有可无”，一句“雷达可有可无”，就决定了歼13在设计理念上对超视距空战重视不多，可以说这是落后时代的。歼13总体布局参考F16却达不到F16的水准，况且在雷达，发动机，导弹，电子设备等子系统上与F16的差距显而易见，可以说歼13即使能够在2年前服役，也完全不可能达到F16的水准，更妄论赶超了。新歼赶超F16的目标，601方案是不可能达成的，这是601落败的根本原因。
> 而反观611方案，大胆采用当时还属新鲜事物的鸭式布局，属于“三代半”比较先进的布局，更加大胆的采用当时在国内还属于空白的静不稳定布局，虽然招致风险过大的质疑，但毫无疑问，军队对这种更加时髦的方案更加青睐。611还在研制歼9时，就将“拦射”概念，也就是超视距空战概念引入，在宋文骢的主持下，当时611对还属于新鲜事物的超视距空战进行了深入研究，对不同距离和角度下的超视距空战建立了详尽的数学模型，而这些成果，也直接被10号方案所继承。在第一次那场仅仅15分钟的汇报中，宋文骢就很聪明的从歼13方案的缺陷下手，从“未来空战怎么打”切入，来汇报自己的方案，指出歼13方案诸多落后于时代的缺陷，最终得以翻盘，不能不说，宋文骢的空军地勤出身，对空战有实际的理解，比闭门造车的书呆子们要强得多。
> 由此，军队选择风险虽大，但明显更有赶超F16希望的611方案，并表现出一边倒的态度，也是情理之中的。
> 第二，客观来讲，611具备601不具备的，对外合作的机会和成果。611和成飞一向在国内处于边缘地带，改革开放之后，被迫立足于对外合作和出口以求生存，从歼7M项目和英国马可尼公司合作开始，接触西方先进技术的机会要比601多得多，在歼10方案中，之所以敢大胆地提出静不稳定布局和先进火控系统的方案，客观是也是有对外合作作为保证的，事实上，611在后来歼10的设计中，和以色列，法国，俄罗斯进行了广泛的技术合作，歼10的全套航电和雷达，就是从以色列原装引进后加以国产化的产物，而在飞控，结构设计方面，以色列和法国也给予了重要的技术帮助，其中软件开发，人员培训甚至共同设计，都有。而反观601，则一门心思闭门造车，完全立足国内，整体方案必然保守，但此时的军队已经对国内航空业水准不抱任何幻想，由此抛弃601方案，也是情理之中的。
> 第三，也是一个原因，就是军队此时对601和沈飞的忍耐已经到达极限；军队对航空业，尤其是沈飞601一直存在严重不满，601穷极10余年之力搞出来的歼8，根本不堪使用，毛病一大堆，更要命的是，601从来不积极解决问题，而是习惯性的把责任推给军队。当年80年代初歼8白刚刚装备部队，时任歼8第一团团长的就是现任副总参谋长的马晓天将军，歼8装备部队后陆续发现操纵性差，尾翼震颤的毛病，而总师顾诵芬则把责任坚决推给部队，称这是飞行员操作不当造成的，后来官司闹大了，马晓天差点被解职转业，逼得马晓天当着空军司令的面和顾诵芬拍桌子大骂，才让顾诵芬勉强承认歼8设计有缺陷.. ..空军对601这种态度，早已深恶痛绝。
> 而在1984年大阅兵中，歼8由于技术问题，没能参加阅兵，部队火气非常大，以致时任国防部长的张爱萍将军说出“沈飞别搞其他的了，把歼8弄好就行了”这种话。在新歼选型中，军队已经很难再信任沈飞，转而扶持当时相对弱小但更有前途的成飞，也是必然之举。当时的军队和航空部，就有“要把成飞变成中国的达索”的说法，其中大力扶持之意，溢于言表。
> 虽然611方案事实上已经基本胜出，但这才是艰难道路的开始，歼10方案的激进，必然带来高风险，这一点上，航空口部分专家的质疑并不是没有道理的，中国当时完全没有接触过静不稳定布局和电传飞控，能不能搞下去没人知道。而601此时也对611能否把方案进行下去很不以为然，611承受的压力，丝毫没有因为竞标的胜出而有任何的减轻。
> 事实上，82年4月的选型会刚结束，航空部一位副部长就找到宋文骢，直截了当的问611对自己方案到底有没有把握。言下之意，就是你611必须给我摊牌，你是真心打算做出来，还只是在这里忽悠人。宋文骢当时给出了肯定的回答，一定能够搞出来！副部长这才放下心来。
> 除了航空口自己人的质疑，军队的态度也给611无形的压力，前面已经说过了，30多年惨不忍睹的经历，已经让空军对自己的航空工业不抱任何幻想，每一次吹牛放卫星和推卸责任的背后，就是空军进一步加深的失落和不信任，当然空军自身也有责任，但是本国航空工业的羸弱，确实大家都不得不认账的。当时的空军，已经很多次向中央提出要买幻影2000
> ，空军在之前详细考察了幻影2000，对这种既能高空高速截击，又能中低空格斗，还能对地攻击的先进战机心仪不已。葛文墉将军还亲身试飞了幻影2000，得出的结论是，幻影2000
> 在高空高速性能上和歼8差不多，但航电雷达非常先进，中低空机动性好，假如对方飞行员不犯错，我们“没有任何机会”，双方的谈判一度接近成交，双方都非常有诚意，但是法国人在价格上的坚持让他们付出了代价，邓小平亲自出面，会见时任法国总统密特朗，希望法国能给个友情价，但密特朗没有给邓小平这个面子，法国人坚持6万美元的单价，对当时的中国而言，无异于天价，当时准备的所有采购资金，只够买24架空机，这还不算配套武器和配件，最终这笔交易没有成功，而中国则转投了美国，才有了后来的“和平典范”，而相信当沈飞开始“和平典范”计划的时候，看成飞的眼神，已然应该充满了某种傲慢的不屑···
> 虽然幻影2000后来最终泡汤，但是对当时的宋文骢和航空部来说，这无异于军队对他们的表态——“你们搞不出，我就去找法国人买”，航空部副部长就坦率对宋文骢的说，空军很多次提出要买幻影2000，假如你的把握不大，就不要搞了，让空军去买幻影吧；而此时的宋文骢没有退路，他回答，空军要买是他们的事，我只管搞出来自己的方案。副部长问宋文骢最终方案出台还要多久？宋回答说2年，最终，副部长对宋文骢表示了支持，但要求宋文骢必须在一年时间内拿出最终方案！
> 82年第二次选型会之后的整整1年内，宋文骢带着总体气动专业组的人始终忙着模型生产、风洞试验、数据处理、曲线绘制、结果分析、布局改进的循环中；先后完成了3期的高低速风洞试验、流谱观测试验。歼10的总体气动布局，就是在那时候打下的基础，包括复合扭转机翼的理论计算和工程化，都是这个阶段的完成的。
> 此外，在此期间，611在飞控，结构设计，航电设备方面和以色列、法国进行了广泛的合作，说到这里，就需要提一下以色列的LAVI“狮”式战机了，关于LAVI和歼10的关系，网上有很多流言，当然最终是莫衷一是，我只能说自己的观点，歼10和以色列的合作，主要集中在航电、雷达方面，歼10的雷达航电就是全套引进以色列产品之后国产化的，一部分结构设计以色列人有参与，飞控方面以色列有一些技术援助，但是必须明确一点，三代战机，飞控和气动是一体的，没有人能够把LAVI的飞控照搬到歼10上，事实上，LAVI的飞控核心是美国人写的，而且以色列人自己都没完成，歼10能抄什么？而在气动设计方面，LAVI本身就有严重的气动设计缺陷，近距耦合布局和10度后掠角的主翼设计，是的LAVI在高速飞行时又非常严重的姿态上仰问题，这也是LAVI最终被放弃的重要原因，这样一个半吊子方案，611根本看不上。以色列人对611的帮助，主要集中在雷达航电和PW1120发动机接口上（狮所用的PW1120发动机曾经是歼10的备选发动机之一）
> 其实，611飞控的入门老师，是法国人，达索和611在飞控方面的合作很早，可以说是611的启蒙老师，飞控方面，在国内，主要有三个技术流派，一是沈飞，师承毛子；二是西飞，师承英国；而第三个则是成飞，主要师承法国，在80年代航空业刚刚开放的时候，英国和法国在我国航空业对外交流中扮演了非常重要的角色，很多法国人的设计烙印一直保留到现在，不信的人可以看看歼10B和枭龙的垂尾电子舱，跟阵风的有多像。
> 在宋文骢带领611进行详尽方案设计的同时，国防工办也连续召开了一系列会议，讨论了机载电子设备、武器火控系统、辅机成品、试飞测试等等详细问题，并在1983年3月明确了飞机、发动机、武器火控系统、惯性导航系统、飞行控制系统、其他机载设备系统和复合材料几方面进行先期论证的项目、要求、负责单位、参加单位、完成日期。新歼项目子系统的先期研究，开始全面展开… …
> 在1983年9月，在北戴河召开了发动机选型会议，当时会议上有5种发动机备选，据说分别是：涡喷15、太行、通过燃机逆向测绘的F100、涡扇6改、TF41加力版，由于当时尚处中美蜜月期，有可能从美国买到发动机，所以在备选方案中，有TF41这样的“纯美国货”，但会议最终决定以涡喷15做为新歼的配套发动机，太行继续发展，做为未来的配套发动机（但事实却是，知道2011年的现在，我们依然没有见到配套太行的歼10装备部队···。）
> 新歼的配套发动机——涡喷15，是苏联P29涡喷发动机的仿制品，前面说过，中国在1979年通过秘密渠道用歼6从埃及换来了一架米格23MF，并对配用的P29涡喷发动机非常口水，于是立即上马开始仿制，两年后完成测绘，并开始进入仿制，涡喷15的指标很高，最大推力和后来的AL31FN一样，达到12.25吨。但是之后进入90年代，军队决定从俄罗斯引进AL31FN代替了涡喷15，由此涡喷15项目中止，据说当时已经试制出了一些部件，现在，这些部件正躺在某个角落，被岁月的尘埃所覆盖… …
> 新歼采用落后的涡喷发动机，可能是现在的人所不理解的，但是确实也反映出当时航空工业的无奈，涡扇6无疾而终，太行刚刚上马，还遥遥无期，即使在蜜月期，美国也不愿意出口军用大推力加力涡扇发动机，而愿意给一些J79这样的涡喷发动机和TF41无加力涡扇发动机用于教练机，而唯一的引进成果是70年代从英国引进的“斯贝”发动机，但推力小，技术落后，也不堪使用。开历史倒车用回涡喷，也是一个无奈的选择，也气得后来的空军副司令林虎将军破口大骂… …为后来一有机会就换发埋下了伏笔。
> 到1984年2月，航空部第三次召开新歼选型会，这一次国防科工委、空军、相关专家119名到会。结果没有任何悬念，611的鸭式布局方案获得一致好评，被确定为新歼方案。
> 84年5月，5月，国防科工委正式下达关于新歼研制总体单位定点问题的批复，确定新歼研制总体单位为611所和132厂。
> 国民党的税多，共产党的会多，这场历经2年的大PK，在大大小小开了上百场会之后，终于尘埃落定，611最终笑到了最后。
> 随后的84年6月，北京再次召开新歼方案论证会，宋文骢作方案汇报，并和空军最后商定了新歼的重要指标，审查确定了新歼的初步设计，空军对新歼的指标，要求很高，要求在2年装备部队，总体要达到F16和米格29的水准，既要突出中低空跨音速格斗性能，还要兼顾高空高速截击性能，要具备较强的超视距空战能力，较大的航程，较为先进的航电，还要兼顾对地打击能力，总之，空军想得到的要求，都提出来了。
> 1986年1月，邓小平对新歼研制作了批示：“我认为建议很重要，近期花钱也不多，拟可同意”，随后，国务院、中央军委联合发文，批准新歼研制，并列为国家重大专项，研制主体单位为成飞611所和132厂，项目代号10号工程！
> 就此，歼10正式开始了它漫长而曲折的诞生历程！
> 到现在为止，我觉得有必要帮大家理顺一下新歼方案的主要历程，让大家可以清晰的看到一个脉络：
> 1982年2月，在北京召开第一次方案评审会，611当时仅4人与会，临时被通知汇报方案，之后宋文骢用15分钟，把原内定计划打乱。
> 1982 年4月，在北京召开第二次新歼方案评审会，此时成飞有备而来，沈飞方案事实上已经落败。
> 1982年4月第二次选型会后，611所继续进行新歼方案的深入完善。
> 1983年3月开始，先期安排相关子系统开始论证和预研。
> 1983年9月，新歼发动机选型会召开，会议确定涡喷15为配套发动机，但太行继续发展。
> 1984年2 月，第三次选型会召开，611最终胜出。
> 1984 年5月，国防科工委正式下发文件，确定新歼研制总体单位为611所和132厂。
> 1984年6月，北京再次召开新歼方案论证会，和空军一起确定新歼指标，审查确定了新歼的初步设计。
> 1986年1月，邓小平对新歼作出肯定批复，之后，10号工程正式上马 。
> 1986年1月，10号工程正式上马之后，宋文骢就开始带领611团队开始了进一步设计，但首先，宋文骢做了一件在当时备受非议的事情，就是对当时的战机科研体制，进行了改革，具体说来，就是：
> 首先，建立设计师系统，系统分为3级：第一级为型号总设计师；第二级为系统总设计师；第三级为飞机一次配套新产品的总设计师、主任（主管）设计师。把参与研制的不同行业、部门的设计师都纳入系统管理。
> 其次，建立经济负责制。每一项成品必须坚持先有原理性试验、单个成品试验，再到地面系统试验、机上试验和飞行试验的做法，也就是说，成品不合格，就不给钱。
> 第三，推广应用计划评审技术。严格型号研制程序，编制各级网络图，从方案论证、初步设计、到发设计图和制造、总装几个阶段，每个阶段都必须进行评审，通过评审才能进入下一个阶段。
> 第四，组织重大技术攻关.......对直接影响整个飞机研制进程的技术问题，由总设计师系统组织攻关。
> 可以看出，上述改革措施，都是针对当时航空科研体系的弊病所针对性提出来的。航空装备是极为复杂的大型装备，不仅仅设计到主设计所，更有下面无数配套子系统的研制单位，以前的航空科研体系，虽说也有总设计师，但下面配套分系统的研制单位，和主机所一样属于航空部下属单位，大家平级，关系好的配合，关系不好的，眼皮一翻，你总师姓甚名谁？配套子系统成品研制不受总师掌握，极为随意，想怎么来怎么来，要搞新的子系统设备？可以啊，先把钱拿来再说，拿了钱再慢慢磨洋工，钱不够了打报告再要。相关产品性能不达标，不匹配，拖进度的现象层出不穷，主机所和分系统厂所又没有明确的上下级隶属关系，结果往往就是扯皮，扯来扯去一直到型号完蛋了事。
> 
> 
> 而宋文骢有针对性的进行改革，形成3级管理体系，各个子系统的研制和试验全程由主机所和总师掌控，不配合的，有权进行撤换，而经济负责制更是杜绝了之前不少子系统厂所只拿钱不干活的现象。这一套制度，是从歼7III的研制开始的，宋文骢在担任歼7III总设计师时，就提出了这一套改革方案，而这一套科研体系的改革，意义重大，歼10的研制历程中，始终没有因为质量出现大的问题。
> 但是，“理所应当”的，宋文骢遭受了前所未有的非议：卡脖子、要钱要权、搞独裁的说法纷至沓来，这也很好理解，以前习惯了先拿钱再干活，想怠工就怠工的，没事就爱扯皮的单位，自然不会习惯这一套。
> 但歼10的研制是举国工程，涉及到10个大分系统，100多个子系统，涉及航空、航天、冶金、电子、兵器、化工等十几个部委和行业，作为总师，没有强有力的手段作保障，如何能够统筹、指挥整个工程的推进呢？又如何保证相关分/子系统的研制进度和质量呢？以前太多的教训已经足够深刻了，宋文骢没有别的选择，非议不可避免，但这套改革能够换来10号工程的进度和质量，是值得的！
> 航空业内有个惯例，就是在一架飞机上，用到的新研制的产品比例，不能超过30%，否则这架飞机安全系数就会低到不可接受，而歼10要实现跨越式赶超，新品比例超过60%，用西方人的习惯，这架飞机根本就定不了型。但没有办法，航空业以前太过落后，假如降低风险，那就只能在性能上做出让步，那么我们战斗机赶超世界就依然是个梦想。
> 在歼10的研制历程中，来自各方的冷嘲热讽从来就没有少过，曾经有人这样问过宋文骢：“宋总啊，恕我冒昧，据我所知，搞一个型号飞机少则10年8年，多则10年20年，你今年已经50多岁了，年龄不饶人啊，这架飞机在你手里最终能设计定型吗？”这个问题意思很明白，言下之意就是你宋文骢可能到死都搞不成歼10，这基本上可以认为是红果果的挑衅了，而宋文骢的回答很有水平，“哈，这个问题有意思。我老宋还能活多少年，这架飞机能不能在我手里定型，我说了不算。但有一点可以肯定的是，通过这架飞机的研制，中国一大批现代飞机设计研制的人才肯定会成长起来，我们只要为他们铺好了路，到时候我老宋在不在没关系，自然会有比我宋文骢更高明的人来接着干。”
> 宋文骢，这位特务出身，从空军地勤成长起来的新中国航空设计师，是真正的民族脊梁！宋文骢，早年在云南做红色小特务，曾经只身跑到当地一个国民党保安团，策反国民党团长，当然很可惜没有成功 ···上级没发枪，宋文骢就拎着一把镰刀出任务。后来朝鲜战争爆发，宋文骢当上了空军地勤，亲身体验了那段惊心动魄的空战岁月，这段岁月，使得宋文骢对空战，对战机，有着更为感性和直观的认识。后来宋文骢成为新中国第一代本土年轻设计师，参与设计了新中国第一款自行设计的喷气式飞机——歼教一。宋文骢在工作当中表现的相当积极，他在601时，自己跑到所领导那里，要求成立一个专门主攻气动布局的气动小组，结果他成功了，并成为新中国第一个专供气动布局的专业小组的组长，歼7放大双发大改的方案（即后来的歼8），也是由他最早提出的。
> 但在那个年代，积极，或者是彪悍并不是一件好事，当时宋文骢正计划结婚，但单位在政审后认为他和夫人政治出身不相配，单位不同意他们结婚。但宋文骢没有妥协，他以和单位领导彻底闹翻的代价最终如愿以偿和夫人结为伉俪。但代价也很惨重，在随后的文化大革命中，宋文骢很快就被打成反革命，丧失了工作条件，每天在自己后院种菜度日 ···
> 直到1969年，601成都分所成立，此时的宋文骢，在601已经处于无人问津的地步了，宋文骢听说这个机会后，直接带着老婆打包了行李，没和任何领导打招呼就跟着去了成都····当然没有人追究他的行为，也没人关心这个人要去哪里。
> 随后，在601成都分所，宋文骢和同事一起，开启了歼9的研制，开启了611所的历史。611的诞生不易，生存更加不易，它偏于西南，无人问津，常年靠出口创汇过活。有订单，就有饭吃，没订单就饿肚子，和养尊处优的沈飞/601不一样，611和成飞没有铁饭碗，没有政策照顾和不停的这个那个的项目，它自己的一切都要靠争，靠抢，靠破坏所谓的行业潜规则···所以在歼7ⅡA被空军抛弃后，他们跑去找约旦人，靠约旦的订单保住了歼7M；所以在佩刀2计划搁浅之后，他们依然没有放弃项目，直到枭龙项目的重新启动；所以在新歼的竞标中，他们虎口夺食，没有给老大哥一丝面子。
> 这帮人，的确不容易···
> 此时的歼10，从严格意义上来讲，还不是一架完全的第三代战机，跟现在的歼10也有很大差别。此时的飞机没有完全采用翼身融合设计；鸭翼面积不大，静不稳定度有限，机动性也不是太高；而发动机更是连根毛都看不到，整机动力水平还是大大的未知数。这架飞机究竟能达到什么水平，谁都说不准。歼10研制的难度，超乎想象。
> 除掉技术上的困难，611还面临一个问题，就是缺钱，这个问题曾经几乎让歼10夭折，其实在那个年代，缺钱不奇怪，不缺才奇怪，10号工程的总共投资只有40亿元人民币，这笔钱落实没落实不说，钱要用在10个分系统，上百家研制单位上，摊到611的已经所剩无几，还要拿出来对外合作（主要是法国和以色列），能够用到飞机研制上的钱，我不说你也知道有多少了，没钱就做不了试验，没钱就做不了方案，一分钱难倒英雄汉，歼10的研制，曾经一度因为资金问题，在原地踏步。这个问题直到80年代末时任中央军委副主席的刘华清将军考察成飞，成飞领导趁机说明情况后，才得到了刘华清首肯的资金支持。
> 没技术，我们可以攻关，甚至搞合作；没钱，我们可以熬，可以借；但假如失去军队的支持，歼10的命运就是有一个了，事实上，我再说一遍，从歼10开始研制的第一天起，非议就没有停止过，除了同行的冷嘲热讽看热闹，还有来自军队的不认同。
> 由于对本国航空业不抱希望，空军自己对歼10能不能搞出来基本抱着无所谓的态度，大力支持基本不用指望，不拆台就不错了。在86年10号工程正式上马之后，空军也开始了那个著名的“打脸工程”——“和平典范”工程，国内也称82工程。
> 82工程刚开始时，相信沈飞是一脸的得意，大笔的资金，对外交流的机会，似乎输掉新歼竞标根本不算什么，有后台才是王道，而此时成飞的歼10，却备受资金缺乏，没有上层支持的困扰，至今还躺在图纸上，国内航空业的老大，依然是我们沈飞！
> 然后，大家都知道发生了什么，政府被狠狠地打脸，军队被狠狠的打脸，航空部被狠狠地打脸，沈飞也被狠狠地打脸，而成飞的境况却并没有因为这件事有丝毫改善，因为空军没有和平典范，却又找到了一个新的G点——苏27。
> 1989年，中央军委组织了一个庞大的军事代表团，前往前苏联考察、访问，目的是什么路人皆知，宋文骢也受邀参加了代表团。过程就不细说了，最终结果是，苏27SK这种前苏联的新锐战斗机给中国空军土鳖们的印象，不是震撼，也不是无比震撼，而是“无比无比无比震撼”，这种巨大无比，光内油量就超过歼7空重的战斗机，居然能够达到F16的机动水平，对当时的中国空军而言，惊为天人！以致后来有一个陆军将领在中国见到引进的苏27之后，向身边的随从感叹到：“这飞机这么大，能装一个班吧？”呵呵呵呵… …
> 于是，要苏27！！！要更多的27！几乎成为空军上下一致的的想法，歼10？搞了快10年，连跟毛都看不到，死一边去吧… …
> 代表团回到北京后，就有不少空军将领在会议上提出，苏27性能优异，要大量进口，而歼10搞到现在，连根毛都没见到，干脆下马别搞了，把钱省出来买苏27更合算。对于这种观点。刘华清将军笑而不语，而是先让在场的宋文骢发言，宋文骢起身解释道，苏27的确性能优异，但是和歼10相比，性能各有所长，苏27是替代不了歼10的，两者应该是相互配合。而刘华清点头赞许，然后才亮明观点：苏27再好，也是别人家的孩子，歼10无论如何，就是再困难，也要搞下去！
> 在最困难的岁月，刘华清将军，和空军副司令员林虎将军等少数有真才实学的将领，都对歼10给予了毫无保留的最为坚定的支持！没有他们，可能就没有现在的歼10了。
> 82工程和引进苏27之后，611感受到了前所未有的压力，的确，从82年开始，到89年，整整8年时间，歼10依然躺在图纸上，永远在方案论证、永远在预先研究，但就是看不到东西出来，有领导甚至直接说成飞搞歼10是“5分钱想上长城”根本是不切实际。面对这种情况，成飞决定不惜代价，先造出一架全金属样机，不管怎么样。先把东西摆出来，到时候见到了实物，争议自然平息。
> 全金属样机的制造，是歼10研制历程的一个重要转折点，工程师第一次能够将图纸上的东西变成实物，精确、实际的验证自己的设计和工艺，试飞员能够做到机舱中模拟操作，提出改进意见，为整机技术冻结创造良好条件。
> 决定作出之后，国防科工委和空军都表示了大力支持，到91年初，成飞已经完成发图，开始样机制造，在精心组织之下，到91年8月27日，样机组装完成。其实，此时的样机，还不能飞，只是一个精确的全尺寸模型，而且里面好多设备没有，就用木头刻的代替，甚至用纸盒子占着，管路没有就用绳子代替，总之，先弄出来再说。
> 就算只是这样，这个全金属样机对歼10研制的帮助，也是莫大的。空军副司令员林虎将军听说造好了样机，直接把空军各大军区的司令员全部叫到成飞来看样机，还亲自介绍这个飞机，这架颇具现代感的歼10让司令员们大为赞叹，这样一来，空军内部的争议就平息了不少（但这只是作战部队，而司令部的那群官老爷们的思想，还不是那么好扭转的）。
> PS：此时的样机，跟现在的歼10依然差别很大，最显著的就是进气道还是F16式的椭圆形皮托管结构，这也是配套涡喷15发动机的结果。
> 眼看研制终于走向了正轨，却不想再次遇到问题——这次是老大难，发动机。
> 前面说过了，歼10的配套发动机是涡喷15，但是到90年代初，涡喷15依然在部件试制，距离仿制定型还遥遥无期，眼看歼10连样机都出了，发动机拖进度估计又要重蹈覆辙了。而此时，空军正好在计划从俄罗斯引进了第一批苏27，所以时任国防部长的张爱萍将军提出既然买了苏27，那干脆再配套多买点AL31F发动机，给歼10换上。但这个意见，成飞和航空部当时是坚决反对的，私下抱怨这又是外行领导内行，以为换发动机是换汽车轮胎么？歼10的设计从头到尾都是按涡喷15配套设计的，样机都出来了，这时候换发动机？又要修改设计，又要拖进度，还有完没完了？双方争执不下，最终刘华清将军拍了桌子，必须换！非换不可！没办法，刘副主席都拍桌子了，还能咋办？换吧···
> 1992年，宋文骢作为全权代表，前往俄罗斯进行AL31F的引进谈判，并签订了1台样机和数台试飞发动机的引进合同。为了适应歼10，AL31F做了若干改进，AL31F配套苏27战机，发动机机匣附件放在发动机上方，方便维护，但要配套歼10必须把机匣附件改到下放，此外还有一些小的技术细节进行了改进，改进后的型号被称为：AL31FN，也就是目前歼10的配套发动机。
> 而为了适应AL31FN，歼10做的改进更大，可以说基本又是一个推到重来。首先，AL31FN和涡喷15一个是涡扇，一个是涡喷，虽然最大推力一样，但推力曲线完全不同，原来的简单的不可调的椭圆进气道已经不能满足需要了，由于涡扇发动机高空性能不如涡喷，所以歼10换用了现在的矩形可调进气道，以保证各种高度和速度下的飞行性能；其次，AL31FN要比涡喷15长很多，所以后机身需要延长，相应的需要对整机重心做配平和调整，主翼翼根弦长也大大增加；由于换发，空军对歼10又提出了更高的要求，要求歼10要能够和苏27形成高低搭配，机动性要和苏27相当，这样一来又不得不对气动外形做小幅度更改以满足要求；另外，此时歼10也借鉴了很多米格设计局的设计，包括外置式双腹鳍，这些都是通过超7和米格设计局的合作中学来的。就这样，经过又一轮的设计更改，新歼10才有了现在歼10的造型，此时假如有全金属样机，那么这个样机的样子，已经和现在的歼10相差不多了。
> 到1994年6月，经过2年多的艰苦奋战，成飞完成了换发后歼10的全部设计工作，图纸全部完成，歼10的研制，开始进入新的阶段——原型机制造！
> 假如你问宋文骢，当时研制歼10时，他最担心的是什么，他一定会说——飞控，假如你问他，鸭式布局的歼10设计最难点在哪里，他一定还会说——飞控。
> 什么是飞控？
> 首先要从静稳定和静不稳定两种布局说起，所谓静稳定，很好理解，就是飞机在飞行时，整机的状态是稳定的，这种飞机的气动焦点位于整机重心之后，理论上，在飞行过程中飞行员即使双手不握杆，飞机也能够自动调整飞行状态，保持稳定飞行，飞行曲线是一个正弦曲线，静稳定飞机飞行稳定性更好，但牺牲了机动性能；而静不稳定，则是要把气动焦点放在重心之前，这样机动性会大大增加，飞机变得更加灵活，但同时飞行状态也极端不稳定，传统的机械操作方式，是无法操纵静不稳定战机的，这就需要找一个飞行员的替代物，也就是电传飞控系统。
> 电传飞控简而言之，就是飞控计算机代替飞行员，以每秒十几次的频率自动解算飞行状态并自动控制翼面，保持飞行状态，而在飞行员操作舵面时，也跟传统机械传动不同，飞行员并不直接操作舵面，而是通过操作驾驶杆，飞控计算机自动判断出飞行员想要做什么动作，然后解算出舵面所需的运动量，再控制舵面做相应运动，也就是说，飞行员从始至终在通过飞控计算机操作飞机，而不是传统机械传动式的直接操作舵面，电传飞控的出现，使得静不稳定布局的控制成为可能，战机的机动性得以大大提高。而且电传飞控在操纵品质上拥有一个巨大的优越性，飞行员不必担心拉杆过猛而造成飞机姿态失控，飞控计算机能够自动设置一个操作上限，实现所谓的“无顾虑操作”。
> 飞控系统的核心，就是飞控程序，和电脑程序一样，飞控程序是在地面编写的，飞控程序编写质量的好坏，直接影响到飞机本身的气动性能能否得到发挥。就像显卡驱动，一款好的驱动，能够挖掘硬件的最大潜能，而不好的驱动，则会浪费一块好显卡，飞控的道理也是类似的。
> 除去静不稳定布局，我们还要多说一下“涡升力”，什么是涡升力？简而言之，就是尖锐而薄的翼面在飞行过程中，会把经过的气流切开，而被切开的气流会形成一个高速脱体旋涡。高速脱体涡空气压力很低，假如让脱体涡吹过主翼上表面，那么翼面的上下压力差就会大大增加，从而提高整个机翼的升力（如果这个都不理解，请百度飞机飞行原理），提高飞机机动性。而这种由脱体涡吹过主翼形成的额外升力增益，就叫做“涡升力”。有飞机设计师说过，飞机气动的进化，就是围绕涡升力而来的，在二代布局中，没有涡升力这个概念，而在三代机中，F16和苏27的小边条，F18和枭龙的大尖拱边条，还有双风和歼10的鸭翼，目的都有一个，就是作为涡流发生器，在飞行中切开气流，激起强烈的脱体涡，吹过主翼，从而大大提高升力进而增强机动性。而四代布局，则更进一步，这里就不细说了。
> 但是，涡升力具有强烈的非线性，无法用数学公式做线性计算，也是传统机械操作模式无法控制的，所以二代机无法利用涡升力，而只有三代机运用电传飞控之后，通过计算机的高速运算，才让涡升力的有效控制成为可能。所以说，三代机标准中的“先进气动布局”和“电传飞控”这两条同时出现，不是没有原因的。
> 回到鸭式布局，它的难点，就在于鸭式布局的鸭翼本身既是涡流发生器，又是配平和俯仰操纵翼面，在鸭式布局中，鸭翼置于主翼之前，除了激起涡流吹过主翼表面外，还要作为俯仰操纵面控制飞机，这本身就是极其复杂的。而且鸭式布局的小展弦比机翼本身也会切出涡流！鸭翼脱体涡和主翼脱体涡耦合，相互干扰，两个非线性的涡流相互干扰和融合，不用说你也知道这有多么的复杂。在鸭式布局上，涡流耦合导致的升力非线性要与操纵面的角度偏转配合好，难度就非常非常大，存在非常多的门限，搞不好，就会摔飞机。
> 可以说，鸭式布局的最大难点，就在于飞控，首先我们看看国外另外几款典型的鸭式布局，是如何解决问题的，台风，为了解决涡流干扰和配平操纵之间的矛盾，直接把鸭翼扔的远远的，形成“远距耦合”，这种布局下，由于距离太远，鸭翼涡流对主翼的干扰已经很小了，但同样意味着台风放弃了涡升力这种有益的升力增量，鸭翼远离重心，仅仅作为俯仰操纵翼面。所以台风超音速性能优异，而亚音速性能一般。
> 而阵风，采用了相反的思路，把鸭翼放的与主翼很近，甚至有重合，这样的布局，鸭翼涡流和主翼涡流耦合后会非常强烈，带来很高的升力增量，但同时，由于距离太近，力臂过短，产生的力矩过小，阵风鸭翼的俯仰配平效果很差。阵风整体沿用了幻影2000无尾三角布局的操纵模式，其实可以认为阵风是幻影2000的发展，阵风的鸭翼，可以看作是一个可动的大的涡流发生器，而不是一个有效的操纵翼面。阵风与台风相反，是超音速性能一般，亚音速性能强悍。
> 说到这，也许你会发现，其实欧洲双风都是在回避问题，回避鸭翼非线性涡流和配平操纵之间的矛盾，而瑞典的JAS-39，是一个正面解决问题的例子，只不过不是太成功罢了。
> JAS39采用“中距耦合”，也就是不回避矛盾，正面设计，同时兼顾涡升力和配平操纵，但是很杯具的是，由于飞控编写水平差，飞机根本无法正常起飞，连出事故，最后找万能的美帝出马，编写飞控，最终美帝大能，完美解决问题。不要以为美帝不用鸭翼是因为技术不够，而纯粹是人家懒得麻烦。
> 而歼10，和JAS39一样，没有选择回避问题，而是采用正面设计，中距耦合，兼顾涡升力和配平操纵，歼10的鸭翼面积是所有鸭式布局中最大的，说明其静不安定度更大，敏捷性更高，同时耦合涡流也会更强烈，设计难度也更大。更厉害的是，歼10的鸭翼可以差动，体现出来的对左右涡流的主动控制能力，除了美帝的F15S/MTD验证机，没有见到第二个。
> 可以说，歼10的气动布局，在三代机中，是数一数二的，而其背后，则需要高超的飞控编写能力。宋文骢一直说自己最担心的是飞控，并不是没有原因的。
> 最终，对飞控的担心并没有成为现实，在飞控天才杨伟的带领下，飞控设计团队最终完美的编写出一整套飞控，歼10的飞行品质之高令飞过的飞行员都赞叹不已，之前最为担心的部分，却成为了歼10最为令人称道的地方，可以说，这一点上，杨伟和他的设计团队功不可没。而杨伟这个15岁上大学，21岁就研究生毕业的天才，也成为了继宋文骢之后的611的扛鼎者，顺便说一句，歼20的总师，就是杨伟。
> 在1994年6月完成全部设计图纸后，歼10原型机的建造于1995年8月开始，原型机制造处于高度保密状态，装配车间全封闭，任何外人都无法进入，成都的夏天大家都知道，当时没有空调，可算是苦了成飞那帮人了… …
> 到1997年6月2号，新机完成建造，刘华清将军亲自为新机剪彩，接下来，就是一连串地面试验，为首飞做准备了。
> 然而在之后的地面试车中，却出现了意外情况，第一次地面发动机试车后，机务员却发现发动机叶片被打坏了，经过检查，发现原来是机体加工时，有细小的金属碎屑没有清理干净，在发动机强大的吸力作用下，从机体缝隙中被吸了出来，打到发动机叶片上，造成损坏。之后132厂组织人力做了一次彻底检查，但第二次试飞之后，依然发现发动机叶片和进气道被打坏，这下事情闹大了，611连夜发出20多张图纸改进，封堵相关缝隙了通道，132厂从上到下进行地毯式排查，等到第三次试车，终于没问题了… …
> 在一连串地面测试之后，歼10要开始高速滑行测试，高滑之后，很快就可以首飞了，但是谁都没想到，这个高滑测试，居然成了一个棘手的问题。在第一次高滑测试时，设计人员就发现歼10居然会跑偏，而且找不到原因！无数次高滑测试，能想到的原因都找了一遍，就是解决不了，依然跑偏，这个看似简单的问题居然足足困扰了设计人员半年之久！后来，还是修改了三行飞控程序，起飞时改用副翼控制，最终解决了问题。
> 完成全部地面测试科目之后，1998年3月12日，首飞指挥部决定首飞！当时已经邀请了很多军队和航空口的大领导到场观看，然而就在这个节骨眼上，成飞一个名叫张凤贵的机械员突然发现发动机启动过程中机体漏下了三滴油。这时候离首飞只有十几个小时了，到底飞不飞？不飞？领导都已经到了成都，集体放领导鸽子？飞？带病飞，出事了怎么办？最终经过激烈争吵，指挥部决定再次推迟首飞时间，排查故障。结果，发现是由于俄方问题，发动机改装过程中有几个工艺孔没堵上，结果造成漏油，花了12天，解决了问题。而发现漏油的那个张凤贵，也被人戏称为“张三滴”，哈哈~~
> 最终，1998年3月23日，歼10完成了腾空一跃，首飞飞行员是雷强，这个网上已经有很多介绍了，我就不费口水了。
> 歼10一共建造了6架原型机，分别是01~~06号机，原型机编号为100X，10代表歼10，第三位0表示0批次原型机，而X则是1到6，代表第几架原型机。
> 1001号机，第一架原型机，主要用于气动验证和飞行性能测试，由于超负荷飞行，01号机很快就到了使用寿命退役，现在保存在小汤山航空博物馆；
> 1002号机，静力试验机，构型和1001号一样，完成静力试验后修复，现在是中航工业大厦门前的标志性塑像；
> 1003号机，第二架用于飞行性能试验的飞机，后期也有承担霹雳11的试飞任务，还有部分对地攻击科目和空中加油科目，03号机是亮相最多的一家原型机，这架飞机现在依然在阎良试飞基地执行科研试飞任务；
> 1004号机，主要执行火控系统试飞
> 1005号机，承担飞行测试任务，火控系统试飞和各种电子系统的测试
> 1006号机，最后一架原型机，和05号机一样，也是主要承担各种火控和电子系统的试飞。
> 在1001号机试飞的时候，设计人员发现实际数据和设计值有比较大的差距，原因就是歼10原先配置的是涡喷15发动机，而换装AL31FN后，由于AL31FN要比涡喷15直径大，所以后机身尺寸大大加粗，整个屁股隆起，于是飞行阻力增加；而且虽然AL31FN和涡喷15最大推力一致，但是实际上，涡扇和涡喷的推力曲线完全不同，尤其在高空，涡扇发动机的效率要低于涡喷，所以造成高空高速科目，1001号机的实际数据要比设计值差不少。
> 出现这个问题之后，宋文骢提出趁飞机还未定型，再次修改设计，当然，还是存在不同意见，可以理解，都到了这个地步，又要修改设计，谁都不愿意。但是宋文骢决心已定，一定要达到设计目标！于是，歼10再次修改设计，具体措施就是：对后机身进行瘦身，修形处理；把机翼动作筒做半埋处理，减少阻力；减小飞机表面突起物的迎风，降低阻力；进一步提高机体表面质量，还是减少阻力。
> 通过一系列以减阻为目的的改进，歼10的飞行数据终于达到了设计值，这批修改设计的歼10有两架用于试飞，分别是1013和1016号机，第三位数1，表示试生产型。
> 在歼10首飞成功之后，宋文骢就将试飞组织工作交给了杨伟，自己则继续带领气动设计小组，开始了下一代战机气动设计的摸索，最终，宋文骢提出了“小展弦比升力体鸭式布局”，通过机头涡、前边条涡、鸭翼涡、边条涡、主翼涡等诸多涡流的耦合，达到了空前的气动性能，而这个布局，也进而发展成了现在的歼20。
> 而杨伟在出色组织试飞工作的同时，领导设计了歼10的双座型歼10S，歼10S的设计是在单座型歼10首飞之后才提出的，整个项目军队只给了3年时间，时间非常紧张。但是在杨伟的出色领导下，歼10S成为了中国战机研制历史上第一个“不拖进度，不降指标”的项目。杨伟的领导才能和成飞611的实力，由此可见一斑。
> 在歼10试飞的时期，正是空军对苏27最为迷恋的时期，当时引进的苏27和苏30强大的性能让空军心醉不已，当时，“要两妻，要更多的两妻”“要打赢，要30”的说法是空军上下一致的看法，对歼10，除了刘华清，林虎等少数将领的坚定支持外，其余大部分将领对歼10并不看好，甚至在歼10首飞之后，依然有“把歼10下马，把钱剩下来买苏27”的说法，而且为数不少，当时的空军，无论训练还是风气，都不是现在的这支空军，买苏27，既好又快，还能大拿毛子的回扣，何乐而不为呢？
> 但是在1999年，江CORE在一次偶然的机会，考察了成飞，而成飞也抓住这次千载难逢的机会，雷强把当时首飞不久的歼10飞出了极限性能，江CORE对这款中国人自己设计的战机的优异性能惊叹不已，当即表示要钱给钱要人给人，全力支持歼10。而很不巧的是，就在江CORE回北京不久，空军就有人打报告，建议下马歼10，转而采购苏27，结果可想而知，江哥的愤怒在当时拥有一击必杀效果，空军的将领们见状立即转向，开始支持歼10了···
> 在21世纪初，歼10依然在试飞中暴露了诸多问题，空军对歼10最终性能还是心中无数，苏27，还是正牌。此时，刘亚洲这个有名的大嘴巴到成飞考察，跟几个试飞员聊了起来，说起歼10的性能如何，几个试飞员当即表示，歼10脚踩苏27，拳打苏30，刘亚洲走后把这些话说给了附近一支装备苏27的部队，结果27部队当即表示对方在扯淡。就这样，双方约定了一场打擂台，其实，这时候歼10还在试飞，跟装备多年的苏27打擂台，是不公平的。但以雷强为首的试飞员依然信心十足，因为他们心里清楚，苏27在歼10面前，就是渣渣···这场PK，一共两架歼10，对面4架苏27，过程不说，我也不清楚，直接说结果吧，4:0，苏27全部被击落，歼10毫发无损。
> 这次对抗结果，让空军对歼10刮目相看，其实，歼10还创造过更夸张的战绩，一次空军内部对抗，依然是2架歼10对抗4架苏27，结果歼10僚机半路故障，退出了演习，但歼10长机没有返航，而是1打4，最后让人大跌眼镜，最后4架苏27全部被击落…. ….
> 歼10，是目前空军装备战机中的空战王者！
> 在2003年，歼10还在试飞时，空军就决定先期装备少量试用，这开了一个先河------边试飞边定型边装备的先河，除了歼10，还有一款战机是没定型即装备的，就是枭龙，不能不说，这是客户对成飞的信任。
> 最终，在2003年12月25日圣诞节，徐勇凌完成了最后一个架次的试飞，歼10的整体试飞历时近6年，终于圆满结束!
> 2004年4月13日，歼10通过国家设计定型审核，正式定型！！！
> 这款脱胎于歼9，从82年开始设计，86年正式立项的战机，历经20余载，最终修成正果。在歼10的研制历程，伴随着中国航空工业的成长，也伴随着空军的转变，可以说，歼10是改革开放以来中国军事装备发展历程的缩影，悲壮而艰辛。
> 目前，歼10共计装备了空1师，空2师，空3师，空44师（首批装备歼10的部队），空24师，空9师，海航4师共计7个整编团，另外还有试训中心一个大队，八一表演队一个大队，总计装备数量超过220架，年均装备数量接近30架　　　　装备部队的歼10，表现出色，歼10空战能力出色，飞行品质极佳，深受部队好评，在历次演习对抗中，歼10都取得了很好的成绩，尤其是首批装备歼10的空44师131团，从西南边陲一支三流部队，一跃成为空军中数一数二的尖子部队，装备对战斗力的有益提升，体现的非常典型。由于在军事训练中的突出表现，131团被中央军委授予“模范歼击机团”荣誉称号，这对一支歼击机部队而言，是莫大的荣誉。
> 歼10A的改进型歼10B目前正在阎良做最后的试飞定型工作，预计2012年开始就会有第一批少量歼10B装备部队试用，而歼10B也不是歼10系列的最后一个改进型号，更多的歼10改进型号正在酝酿和进行当中！​


Thankyou. Now I understand everything

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## Pakistan Space Agency

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Poor guy---you so vehemently trying to deny the truth more so than Israel to US congress.
> 
> You always do deny it---must touch a nerve somewhere.
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> This old man has been proven right more time than you will ever be on a defense forum regarding major purchases---.
> 
> What is you claim of fame---?


Are you referring to this?

U.S. Says Israel Gave Combat Jet Plans to China​​_BY JIM MANN_​​_DEC. 28, 1994 12 AM PT_​​*WASHINGTON* — Seven years ago, in the face of mounting costs, the United States withdrew from an elaborate project to help build an advanced combat aircraft for Israel. The idea was scrubbed--or so it seemed.​​Now, to the consternation of U.S. officials, much of the American know-how and initial planning for the canceled “Lavi” fighter plane are about to be put to use in China.​​*U.S. government officials have recently concluded that China and Israel are collaborating to develop and produce an improved fighter for the Chinese air force.* Comparable to an American F-16, the new plane will be based on the Lavi and will incorporate extensive technological innovations derived from that project, according to U.S. government experts on the Chinese military.​​*China and Israel already have finished work on a prototype,* and production will probably start soon at a plant in the Sichuan province capital of Chengdu, U.S. officials said. The plane’s deployment is seen as a major step in Beijing’s effort to modernize its air force, and some observers believe it has negative implications for China’s longstanding rival, Taiwan.​​“This plane would fit in with a scenario for (conflict over) Taiwan 10 years from now,” one U.S. government expert said. “And for someone to help the Chinese build a production line, a turnkey facility, for this aircraft is ominous.”​​The U.S. government’s confirmation of Israel’s role in developing the new Chinese plane could create tensions between Washington and the Jewish state. The joint work on the plane is the latest in a series of military projects in which Israel has helped China over the past 15 years.​​Although China’s impending production of the Lavi-style fighter has been closely monitored and discussed in the U.S. intelligence community in recent months, *White House and State Department officials say there has been no official diplomatic protest to Israel about it.*​​*Some Administration officials are said to believe the issue is of no great concern.* While the plane represents a big step forward for China, they say, it is based on 1980s-era technology and will not be placed in service for several years.​​Marvin Klemow, vice president for government affairs of Israeli Aircraft Industries International, the Washington subsidiary of Israel’s state-owned export firm, denied that his company is transferring U.S. technology to China.​​“IAI does not transfer any technology illegally. Any U.S. technology that requires a license (from the United States), we apply for that license,” Klemow said. “And we have not applied for any license for any Lavi-associated technology for China.”​​Klemow would not say whether his company is providing China with other, non-American aircraft technology from the Lavi project. “We never confirm or deny who we do business with,” he said.​​An official at the Israeli Embassy in Washington also denied that Israel had passed on U.S. technology based on the Lavi.​​For several years, there was speculation that China and Israel were working together on a new plane based on technology from the Lavi project.​​But the first report that the plane is nearing production came in November in a British aviation publication, Flight International. U.S. officials confirmed that report in recent interviews.​​“The plane is in the prototype stage. The prototype has been built,” one U.S. official said. “It is a very capable aircraft. It uses extensive U.S. technology.” The official said the combat fighter will be ready for flight-testing in about a year and will be in full service in China’s air force about a decade from now.​​The plane, which China intends to call the F-10 fighter, represents the latest in a prolonged effort by Beijing to obtain modern combat planes and to be able to manufacture them on its own soil.​​Most of China’s current combat planes are 1960s-era aircraft based on Soviet designs. In 1986, the Ronald Reagan Administration agreed to provide modern-day electronics, navigation and radar equipment for some of those Chinese planes in a $550-million project called Peace Pearl. The project was suspended when the George Bush Administration imposed sanctions on military sales to China after the 1989 Tian An Men Square crackdown. China, which became increasingly irritated by mounting costs associated with Peace Pearl, pulled out of the deal in 1990.​​It was after Peace Pearl’s cancellation that China turned to Israel, apparently aiming to obtain indirectly some of the American-style military technology it could not obtain from the United States itself. The principal U.S. defense firm in the aborted Peace Pearl project, Grumman Corp., was heavily involved in the Lavi project too, according to U.S. experts.​​By producing the new plane, China’s once-antiquated air force will take a quantum leap forward, U.S. officials said.​​“Right now, China can’t establish air superiority even over China itself. India has a better air force than China does,” one U.S. official said. “But 10 years from now, China will be able to establish air superiority over all of China’s territory, and also over the periphery of China, in places like Vietnam and the South China Sea.”​​China has made extensive territorial claims in the South China Sea, particularly in the Spratly Islands, many of which are claimed by other countries in the region, including Vietnam and Taiwan.​​Two years ago, in the first big step toward modernization of its air force, China bought 26 Sukhoi-27 advanced jet fighters from Russia. U.S. experts said the Russian planes have a longer range than the F-10 China is about to build. But the F-10 will be faster and will have a greater ability to intercept enemy aircraft.​​“A competent air force would need both of them, just like we have the F-16s and F-15s,” one U.S. official said. “The SU-27 fits for a scenario involving the Spratlys. The F-10 would fit in better with a scenario for Taiwan 10 years from now.”​​Unlike the SU-27 deal, in which China simply purchased jet fighters made in Russia, the new project with Israel will give China the ability to manufacture its own advanced jet fighters.​​According to Flight International, officials of Israel Aircraft Industries have helped guide the way for the Chinese air force to develop and produce the plane under a contract signed in 1992.​​Over the past 15 years, China has established itself as the biggest customer for Israel’s arms export industry. The first public demonstration of this cooperation came in a Chinese National Day parade in 1984 when foreign military attaches in Beijing were surprised to find Israeli guns, cannons and electronic equipment mounted on top of Chinese tanks.​​U.S. laws forbid Israel to pass on to another country any military technology obtained directly from the United States. Any company that violates those laws can be suspended from doing military business in this country.​​But it is often difficult to prove conclusively that U.S. technology has been re-exported, because a foreign government or company can claim that it has changed the U.S. technology or has produced something similar on its own.​​*In 1992, U.S. intelligence agencies reported that Israel might have transferred Patriot missile technology to China in violation of American laws. A State Department team found there was not enough evidence to support the charge, and a department spokesman said the case is closed.*​​*At the same time, State Department Inspector General Sherman Funk reported that a leading recipient of American military technology, separately identified as Israel, had engaged in a “systematic and growing problem of unauthorized transfers” of U.S. technology to other countries.*​​A congressional staff member suggested recently that the U.S. government might have quietly accepted or encouraged Israel’s decision to help build the Chinese plane--in effect using Israel as a proxy to supply China with military technology that the United States can’t provide directly to Beijing.​​“The question is, was there a conscious decision on the part of someone in Washington to let this happen?” he asked.​​Other officials insist, however, that transfers of the Lavi technology to China are not something the United States wants or accepts.​​Chen Guoqing, a spokesman for the Chinese Embassy in Washington, declined to comment on the production of the new aircraft.​​







U.S. Says Israel Gave Combat Jet Plans to China


Seven years ago, in the face of mounting costs, the United States withdrew from an elaborate project to help build an advanced combat aircraft for Israel.




www.latimes.com

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## SIPRA

PurpleButcher said:


> Thankyou. Now I understand everything



Hor puchho sawaal.

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## cssniper

Mav3rick said:


> I am reading up on the goodies that are coming our way, the J-10s, Helo's, SAM systems etc.,
> 
> Has anyone wondered where we are going to the get the money from? All this while the Government is looking to tax more, to the point where imported infant formula is being proposed to be taxed and even donations are proposed to be taxed! Is this all Just to maintain our ego? Is this really justified?


Agreed with you.
No one wins in an arm race except the arm dealer.
But there are always countrys thought they could gain advantage and threat the others by doing so, and here comes the race.


SQ8 said:


> Yes - the world famous Shephard media, second only to BBC and CNN in being recognized worldwide!
> With the famous defense author unable to discern between an interior minister’s faux pax and actual defense briefings but knows exactly what the capabilities are.
> 
> Go back 3 pages - read through each response and the discussion on how the J-10 was developed back and forth along with specifically my response:
> 
> The wreckage of a F-16 of your iron ally and brother was shipped to you at your request for study into its design. Not to COPY as you are insecure about but to understand methods of manufacturing that would help China advance.
> Much as an INTACT BGM-109 tomahawk that failed and landed in your iron brother’s land was shipped to you so you could study how it works and incorporate ideas into your own designs.
> 
> When the F-16 first arrived in Pakistan a visiting PLAAF general was invited to look at it. As he sat in the cockpit he took his two fingers and started measuring the heads up display which caused the US support staff to panic. Now why was one of the most senior PLAAF officer measuring the HUD of a US fighter? Was he trying to copy it? Or take the information back to your engineers.


That's very interesting information you shared. If what you said is accurate, there is no doubt that researchers in China could study design and textures of these in order to improve themselves'. 
Of course Pakistans would got what they expected too, such as arm improvement, information about Sukhoi fighters etc. That is what called friends---helping each other,right?

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## luciferdd

PurpleButcher said:


> Thankyou. Now I understand everything



The Frenches are good technical cooperation partner,you can nearly get everything you want from them as long as you can pay for it.

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## Ali_Baba

The J10Cs(when they land) and Block III's will take a little time to mature and become bug free but they will be a significant upgrade for sure. They represent the next evolution of PAFs war fighting doctrine.

I truly hope that the March 2022 display is led by either the JF17 Block III or J10C, but not the F16. I cannot think of a stronger message to the Americans than the reign of the american diktat over Pakistan's security is now over.

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## TsAr

CriticalThought said:


> Take heart, we all understand it is only rumors. But I stand behind the concept of Su35/J15/J16 for naval power projection, so the concept is not without merit.


and its not new as well, interest has been shown by PAF few years back and talks were also held, though they were just initial discussions.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT




*

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## SQ8

luciferdd said:


> I can remind one thing to you:base on the relevant source nearly all avionics except the radar on the early batch J-10A are purchased from france directly ，they give the fully BVR capacility to J-10A,do you know what it means? A HUD?sorry it's a France（ THALES ） HUD at that time.


You clearly aren’t understanding what I am inferring to - knowledge was transferred to China from a variety of sources that helped in the design of the J-10. That doesn’t mean they used the exact HUD or even the rivet size from the F-16 or Lavi.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Not too long to see them in our Skies along with F16s.

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## maverick1977

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT
> View attachment 806646
> *



is ko har kissi say ishq ho jata hay, sub kuch parday may rakhoo...  ... check karo is kay kamray may cruise missiles, jahazoon aur tankoo kee poster to nahi lagay huay, rofl

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## SQ8

cssniper said:


> Agreed with you.
> No one wins in an arm race except the arm dealer.
> But there are always countrys thought they could gain advantage and threat the others by doing so, and here comes the race.
> 
> That's very interesting information you shared. If what you said is accurate, there is no doubt that researchers in China could study design and textures of these in order to improve themselves'.
> Of course Pakistans would got what they expected too, such as arm improvement, information about Sukhoi fighters etc. That is what called friends---helping each other,right?


A lot of the Chinese technology leap has come from 
1.getting access to technology through various third party channels
2. reverse engineering it to understand how it works and build knowledge 
3. Build upon that knowledge to create better and improved versions initially and then indigenous designs

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## Goenitz

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *ELEVEN HARDPOINTS AT THE MOMENT
> View attachment 806666
> *


11 hardpoints are correct. Though the J 10CE wing tip is not strong enough to hold any weapon, plus it is curved so cannot incorporate rail. The small bombs are on dual rack, so total 3 under wing. The fuelage hardpoints are correct

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Goenitz said:


> Deino will 'kill' you.


Thanks for the reminder, deleted that image.

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## siegecrossbow

Can’t wait for the hush kit interview with J-10C pilot.

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## tphuang

This is my first time posting on these type of forums for a while, but the topic peaked my interest enough to listen to a bunch of Chinese podcast. So I will say the following.

As much as J-10 export have been discussed for a long time (starting with J-10A long long ago), it really was not very simple to do it until now. And the reason is J-10 have been equipped with AL-31 until the last couple of years. It's one thing to get Russians on board with exporting RD-93s for 150 JF-17s. It's quite another thing to get Russians on board for 25 to 40 J-10s. Now that they have a reliable domestic engine that can be produced in large numbers, they have the ability to both supply domestically and export. China and Russia have very tight relationships. You are not going to see J-11B or J-16 ever get exported to Pakistan. Even though it's of my opinion that J-16/J-16D are more powerful than J-10Cs, China will not piss off the Russians. The next aircraft China will like to export to PAF after this would be whatever comes of FC-31. But who knows how long that will take to get fully developed and mature.

Internet warriors make a common mistake of getting overly excited about possible future capabilities and not about what makes sense from delivery and price and training point of view. It's more important to get aircraft into your service quickly that can immediately improve your training and capabilities rather than continually waiting for an exporter to develop new technology that may take years to be completely certified and reliable. That's the difference between China and India. That's why China got the MKK quickly into its service while the Indians spent days glamorizing MKIs mythical capabilities that took years to get there. Keep in mind, even a "mature"/conservative design like MKK still took years to get certain capabilities that Russians had promised.

J-10C is a no brainer for PAF right now for some very obvious reasons. It has been in service with PLAAF for 6 years and should be mature/reliable by this point. It's been flying with WS-10B for a couple of years. They should've fixed most of the issues by this point. PLAAF has trained with it for that many years and have a good idea how to use it and can pass along that knowledge to PAF. PAF has also trained against it several times with all the joint exercises. In the event of a war, China can send J-10C replacement to PAF at a very short notice. There is a mature production line in CAC, which means cost of production will not be high. I'm sure J-10C will be more expensive than JF-17 Block 3, but not that much more. I don't expect PAF's J-10C to look exactly like the PLAAF ones. From what I heard, PAF's version may turn out slightly limited due to budgetary issues (not because PLAAF is limiting export of any technology on there). PAF is getting J-10C for very good price. Aside from that, PLAAF will likely help PAF with maintenance. PAF will have no problem getting spares from China, since PLAAF is going to have a large J-10 fleet for a long time.

And finally, China is able to deliver J-10C to Pakistan at a short notice. I'm sure the PAF J-10C have been in production for most of past year, but getting 25 of them by March is rather impressive. How long did it take IAF to get the 36 Rafale from the time MRCA was announced (20 years)? It's been 10 years since IAF had announced Rafale won the competition. I'm sure China and Pakistan have been negotiating this secretively for years, but they probably only made the decision only in the past couple of years when Rafale started to operate with IAF. Make no mistake, Rafale is a great aircraft. A lot more capable than Su-30MKI. Anyone in China will tell you that JF-17s with AEW support can handle MKI pressure. J-10C may or may not be a better aircraft than Rafale. But in the context of operating in an environment with other aircraft, AEWs and ground radar support, it should be.sufficient in matching that thread for PAF. The sooner that PAF can get J-10Cs and train with it, the more capable J-10Cs will be. Also, keep in mind that in the future, you maybe able to upgrade your aircraft significantly through software upgrades and small hardware upgrades that would be hard to notice from pictures. With the amount of resources China has dedicated to this area, I'm willing to bet J-10C will see significant performance improvements in that way. The investment that China and PLAAF has put into J-20 development will also show up on its other aircraft in different ways.

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## CriticalThought

TsAr said:


> and its not new as well, interest has been shown by PAF few years back and talks were also held, do they were just initial discussions.



In one of the 7th Sep progammes (I think?) a few years back, a PAF pilot openly said that Su-35 is being considered. That is a claim from a very authentic source. Of course, being considered is different from finalized for procurement.


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## Pakistan Space Agency

tphuang said:


> This is my first time posting on these type of forums for a while, but the topic peaked my interest enough to listen to a bunch of Chinese podcast. So I will say the following.
> 
> As much as J-10 export have been discussed for a long time (starting with J-10A long long ago), it really was not very simple to do it until now. And the reason is J-10 have been equipped with AL-31 until the last couple of years. It's one thing to get Russians on board with exporting RD-93s for 150 JF-17s. It's quite another thing to get Russians on board for 25 to 40 J-10s. Now that they have a reliable domestic engine that can be produced in large numbers, they have the ability to both supply domestically and export. China and Russia have very tight relationships. You are not going to see J-11B or J-16 ever get exported to Pakistan. Even though it's of my opinion that J-16/J-16D are more powerful than J-10Cs, China will not piss off the Russians. The next aircraft China will like to export to PAF after this would be whatever comes of FC-31. But who knows how long that will take to get fully developed and mature.
> 
> Internet warriors make a common mistake of getting overly excited about possible future capabilities and not about what makes sense from delivery and price and training point of view. It's more important to get aircraft into your service quickly that can immediately improve your training and capabilities rather than continually waiting for an exporter to develop new technology that may take years to be completely certified and reliable. That's the difference between China and India. That's why China got the MKK quickly into its service while the Indians spent days glamorizing MKIs mythical capabilities that took years to get there. Keep in mind, even a "mature"/conservative design like MKK still took years to get certain capabilities that Russians had promised.
> 
> J-10C is a no brainer for PAF right now for some very obvious reasons. It has been in service with PLAAF for 6 years and should be mature/reliable by this point. It's been flying with WS-10B for a couple of years. They should've fixed most of the issues by this point. PLAAF has trained with it for that many years and have a good idea how to use it and can pass along that knowledge to PAF. PAF has also trained against it several times with all the joint exercises. In the event of a war, China can send J-10C replacement to PAF at a very short notice. There is a mature production line in CAC, which means cost of production will not be high. I'm sure J-10C will be more expensive than JF-17 Block 3, but not that much more. I don't expect PAF's J-10C to look exactly like the PLAAF ones. From what I heard, PAF's version may turn out slightly limited due to budgetary issues (not because PLAAF is limiting export of any technology on there). PAF is getting J-10C for very good price. Aside from that, PLAAF will likely help PAF with maintenance. PAF will have no problem getting spares from China, since PLAAF is going to have a large J-10 fleet for a long time.
> 
> And finally, China is able to deliver J-10C to Pakistan at a short notice. I'm sure the PAF J-10C have been in production for most of past year, but getting 25 of them by March is rather impressive. How long did it take IAF to get the 36 Rafale from the time MRCA was announced (20 years)? It's been 10 years since IAF had announced Rafale won the competition. I'm sure China and Pakistan have been negotiating this secretively for years, but they probably only made the decision only in the past couple of years when Rafale started to operate with IAF. Make no mistake, Rafale is a great aircraft. A lot more capable than Su-30MKI. Anyone in China will tell you that JF-17s with AEW support can handle MKI pressure. J-10C may or may not be a better aircraft than Rafale. But in the context of operating in an environment with other aircraft, AEWs and ground radar support, it should be.sufficient in matching that thread for PAF. The sooner that PAF can get J-10Cs and train with it, the more capable J-10Cs will be. Also, keep in mind that in the future, you maybe able to upgrade your aircraft significantly through software upgrades and small hardware upgrades that would be hard to notice from pictures. With the amount of resources China has dedicated to this area, I'm willing to bet J-10C will see significant performance improvements in that way. The investment that China and PLAAF has put into J-20 development will also show up on its other aircraft in different ways.


Welcome to the forum and superb input.

Thank you for the clarity.

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## Gripen9

SQ8 said:


> A lot of the Chinese technology leap has come from
> 1.getting access to technology through various third party channels
> 2. reverse engineering it to understand how it works and build knowledge
> 3. Build upon that knowledge to create better and improved versions initially and then indigenous designs



The certain Iron brother was rumored to have sent copies of CATIA CAD designing software as well that it had gotten from DCN as part of A90B ToT.

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## Rafi

Let's not make a big deal about helping each other, China and Pakistan cooperation has many layers and "cherries" on top.

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## CriticalThought

SQ8 said:


> A lot of the Chinese technology leap has come from
> 1.getting access to technology through various third party channels
> 2. reverse engineering it to understand how it works and build knowledge
> 3. Build upon that knowledge to create better and improved versions initially and then indigenous designs



Let us not forget that 1 and 3 also involve the buying of entire manufacturing plants and companies. There is also the hiring of Russian scientists and engineers at exorbitantly high rates.

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## SQ8

CriticalThought said:


> Let us not forget that 1 and 3 also involve the buying of entire manufacturing plants and companies. There is also the hiring of Russian scientists and engineers at exorbitantly high rates.


It is the final result that matters to them - being able to maintain parity with their primary threat. Its the same answer I give certain Indians when they are in bragging mode regarding indigenous designs - It doesn’t matter where the bullet comes from, so long as it ensures a kill.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Gripen9 said:


> The certain Iron brother was rumored to have sent copies of CATIA CAD designing software as well that it had gotten from DCN as part of A90B ToT.


I remember one of the senior members at the PakDef forum (now defunct) mentioning something like, that US officials had once queried Pakistani officials about Pakistan sharing F-16 technology with the Chinese.

The Pakistanis swore with their lives that no such thing happened. Then US officials showed them photographs of Chinese personnel inspecting the F-16s. And, that was that.

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## Rafi

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> I remember one of the senior members at the PakDef forum (now defunct) mentioning something like, that US officials had once queried Pakistani officials about Pakistan sharing F-16 technology with the Chinese.
> 
> The Pakistanis swore with their lives that no such thing happened. Then US officials showed them photographs of Chinese personnel inspecting the F-16s. And, that was that.



LoL as if the yanks aren't doing crazy underhand shit all the time, "just take it bitch" like I sometimes say.

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## Windjammer

*PAF’s acquisition of J10-C*



S.M. Hali
07TH JAN, 2022. 08:04 PM





File photo

Pakistan’s interior minister, the loquacious Sheikh Rasheed Ahmed, re- cently informed the media that PAF is acquiring the Chinese J-10C “Fire- bird” fighter, which is slated to arrive in time to take part in the March 23 Pakistan Day parade. The confirmation should have come from the Ministry of Defence, but the Interior Minister chose to make the announcement, link- ing the fresh acquisition as a counter to India’s recently inducted Rafale.
The declaration set the Indian media’s wheels into motion, spinning tales of speculation, disinformation and denigration of Pakistan with its usual xenophobia. Some elements of Pakistani media too indulged in half-baked theories of praise along with criticism, depending on which side of the fence they were sitting.
Hence, it is imperative to provide a ratio- nale for Pakistan’s procurement of the Chinese fighters, put to rest the conjectures and present a comparison of the two weapons systems.

Quantitatively, Indian Air Force (IAF) has always enjoyed an edge over Pakistan Air Force (PAF) as the former is the fourth-larg- est air force in the world after the US, China, and Russia with around 1,70,000 personnel and 1,500 aircraft. However, the IAF currently has a ratio of 1.5 pilots per aircraft as against 2,5 pilots per aircraft for the PAF. India’s squadron numbers have also dwindled which is at its lowest point since the 1970s with just 28 fighter squadrons operational as against the authorised 42. Despite IAF’s clear advantage over PAF in terms of both quality and quantity espe- cially after the addition of Rafale jets, PAF hasshown time and time again that despite a small fleet of jets and limited defence budget, they are no way inferior to the Indian Air Force. PAF offsets its adversary’s numerical and qual- itative advantage through better weapon sys- tems maintenance, higher sortie generation and hard training.
Pakistan’s decision to opt for the Chinese J-10C is not a knee-jerk reaction to the in- duction of Rafales in IAF. In fact, on 31 Jan- uary 2012, the Indian Ministry of Defence announced that Dassault Rafale had won the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMR- CA) competition to supply the Indian Air Force with 126 aircraft, along with an option for 63 additional aircraft.
The first 18 aircraft were to be supplied by Dassault Aviation fully built and the remain- ing 108 aircraft were to be manufactured un- der license by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) with a transfer of technology from Das- sault. Later the deal fell through due to cost inflation and disagreements on warranty for aircraft produced by HAL. India wanted Das- sault to ensure the quality of aircraft produced by HAL, but Dassault refused to do so.
The agreement was revived in 2015 with In- dia opting to acquire 36 Rafale multirole fight- er aircraft for a price estimated at €7.87 ($8.8) billion. The contract was tainted with accusa- tions of kickbacks, but that is another story.
Pakistan’s quest for acquiring the J-10 also commenced in 2015. Its first choice would have been the upgrade of its F-16 fleet to Block 70/72, which met snags of financing. PAF’ purely indigenous efforts were initiated in July 2017, under _Project Azm_ to develop a fifth-generation heavy fighter aircraft pow- ered by twin engines, having stealth features. This ambitious project also comprises the development of medium-altitude, long-en- durance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) capable of operating at an altitude window of 10,000 to 30,000 feet for extended durations of time, typically 24 to 48 hours, new munitions, and multiple other projects.
The caveat is that the next-generation air- craft under Project Azm is not going to make its flight by the end of this decade, thus the PAF had been considering the induction of a new system due to the geopolitical and geostra- tegic situations of the region to fill the gap.
Another disinformation being spread by the Indian media is that the JF-17 Thunder Block iii is a failure and unable to match the Rafale, thus the decision to induct the J-10C. This couldn’t be further from the truth. JF-17 Thunder has been tried and tested as a light- weight fighter aircraft, which held its own during Operation Swift Retort on 27 February 2019, in which India got a bloody nose caus- ing the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi to lament that if only his air force had theRafale, it could have taught Pakistan a lesson.
The capabilities of the JF-17iii are quite im- pressive, considering the price-tag and avail- ability. In terms of avionics and weapons load,AESA/IRST/Datalink/BVR/HMD+Off-bore- sight WVR missiles, and a reasonably decent EW suite all make for a good Gen 4+ fighter platform. Its range can be enhanced as in the Block 2’s in-flight refueling capability, while the reduction in weight as well on the Block 3, due to composite materials will also in-
crease agility. PAF considers the JF-17 as its mainstay aircraft as it is going to replace the ageing F-7s. The JF-17 has become a mature platform with the Block III variant in the as- sembling lines.
The J-10C, are expected to replace the PAF’s 87 delta-wing Mirage III ROSE fight- ers, which remain quite old despite integra- tion of modern avionics, satellite navigation and Italian Grifo radar.
Now for a comparison of the Rafale and the J-10C: in size, Rafale is 15.27 metres in length and has a wingspan of 10.80 m. The J-10C, which is an upgraded version of the J-10, measures 15.49 metre in length and has a wingspan of 9.75 m. In terms of thrust, weight and range, the J-10C has an empty weight of 8,850 kg against Rafale’s empty weight of 9,850 kg. The Rafale is heavier by one tonne when empty but has a far greater thrust coming out of its twin engines.
The Rafale has a 20 percent greater thrust for just 11 percent higher weight than the J-10C. This means for the same weight of fuel and weapons, Rafale is going to have a thrust- to-weight ratio far better than the J-10C which means better agility and higher energy which is the deciding factor within visual range (WVR) combat. Moreover, the Rafale has a range of 3,700 km as compared to the 1,850 km that the J-10C offers. One aspect where the Rafale trails behind the J-10C is speed; while the Rafale has a maximum speed of Mach 1 (1,912 km/h), the J-10C is blazing ahead at Mach 2.2 (2,400 km/h). The J10C also in- corporates thrust vectoring on its engine for enhanced manoeuvrability, which the Rafale lacks. The J10C also has the upper hand in speed, climb rate, and operational altitude over Rafale. Although Rafale is a twin-engine fighter, its engines’ thrust is similar to J10C. J10C’s 19.3 tons maximum take-off weight is much better than both F-16 and JF-17, however short of Rafale’s 24.5. The larger the take- off weight, the larger payload and fuel an air- craft can carry. Thus, J10C can perform close to Rafale, giving it an upper hand against the current aircraft in the PAF fleet.
In terms of air-to-air missiles, the Rafale is equipped with the Meteor BVR missile, which has a range of 100 kilometers plus on the other hand, J10C is coming with the PL-15 air-to-air missiles, which have a range of 200 kilometers plus. Thus, the J-10C is considered one of the most capable single-engine fighters in the world and is comparable to Rafale in size, aerodynamic characteristics, aviation, and weapon systems.

_The writer is a former PAF Group Captain and an author_

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## Windjammer

*For those wondering about the number of hard points on a J-10......here all 11 stations visible and loaded.*

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## KaiserX

J10C fits in perfectly with the PAF's mix of F16MLU/JF17B3. All F7s will be retired by the end of 2022. Around 40-50 new AESA capable jets expected to be inducted into the PAF this year enough for 2 new squadrons. 

Mirage ROSEs will remain for dedicated tactical/anti ship strikes.


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## Gripen9

KaiserX said:


> J10C fits in perfectly with the PAF's mix of F16MLU/JF17B3. All F7s will be retired by the end of 2022. Around 40-50 new AESA capable jets expected to be inducted into the PAF this year enough for 2 new squadrons.
> 
> Mirage ROSEs will remain for dedicated tactical/*anti ship strikes*.



From what I have been told, No 8 sqn is no longer tasked with Anti Ship role and the exocets have been transferred back to PN.
No 2 Sqn is now primary Anti Ship sqn with C-802s.

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## arjunk

Jinn Baba said:


> It however remains to be seen whether they are A/B/C/S models


J-10CE


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## cssniper

SQ8 said:


> A lot of the Chinese technology leap has come from
> 1.getting access to technology through various third party channels
> 2. reverse engineering it to understand how it works and build knowledge
> 3. Build upon that knowledge to create better and improved versions initially and then indigenous designs


These points are truths.
It just may not happened specifically to "the F-16's fuselage" and J-10.(And this really did not matter in the discussion)

In my opinion,these things always happened in human history and any countries, it's the easy way to catch up with developing techniques.
USSR's Tu-4 is an exact copy of US's B-29 bomber,and surely we know US got many German techniques after World War II.(By the way I've heard rumors that USSR got its Nuclear tech from US,though highly unlikel)
As for China, it's industralising and modernizing its armament , the western world don't like that. China won't give up any necessary ways to achieve it.

That's a little off topic, so back to the J-10's deal.
Rafael no dout has a better design for a multirole fighter, given the experience that French have in aviation industry.
But J-10c is design for air combat supremacy, with the newest radar and misssles,I think it will defeat Rafael in equal fight.

Well,it is a little fun that if 611institute really got aid from Dassault according to some article,then Rafael vs J-10c is a classic type story about teacher and students.
Here's another joke to share, got it from chinese internet.Pakistan will become "the second country" which get both F-16 and J-10 in service, guess who's first haha.🤣🤣🤣

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## Ali_Baba

Gripen9 said:


> The certain Iron brother was rumored to have sent copies of CATIA CAD designing software as well that it had gotten from DCN as part of A90B ToT.



Please dont spread rubbish ...

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## KaiserX

Gripen9 said:


> From what I have been told, No 8 sqn is no longer tasked with Anti Ship role and the exocets have been transferred back to PN.
> No 2 Sqn is now primary Anti Ship sqn with C-802s.



Exocets cant be tossed around. The air launched versions cant be modified. PAF specifically modified a squadrons of Mirages for anti ship missions. The PAF will use both Mirages/JF17s for anti shipping operations. PN will provide Orions/Propellers/Helicopters for its air arm.

Neither the PAF nor the PN will carry out a long range anti shipping mission for which a SU35 would be needed. Pakistans coastline is not too far. Can easily be covered by existing platforms let alone land based launchers.

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## Ali_Baba

Windjammer said:


> *For those wondering about the number of hard points on a J-10......here all 11 stations visible and loaded.*
> 
> View attachment 806707



For the 11 hardpoints, we still need to know if the last 2 hardpoints carrying dumb bombs in that picture can host smart weapons with a databus to them or not... That is the million dollar question right now ( well - to me at least - but i dont have a million dollars if anyone asks ... ).

The front 2 hardpoints under the chin are smart - as they can carry jammers and laserr designation pods - the question is really for the last 2 which are just infront of the engine on the underside of the fuselage..


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## tphuang

I've seen some hesitations on this and other thread about purchasing Chinese weapons, whether it's J-10C or Z-10. So, I will try to put you guys at ease about this. There has been huge technological advances in the Chinese military industrial complex in the past 20 years. But for the sake of this thread, I will just use fighter jet as an example. Back 20 years ago, China was still iterating through J-8II variants as its best aircraft. Just last month, they flew the first twin-seated 5th generation aircraft in the world.

If you look at Rafale's development from its first flight in 1991 until now and compare that to J-10 from 1998 until now. There has been a greater improvement in J-10 over a shorter timeframe. Just take a look at how long it took the Europeans to put AESA radars on the Eurocanards. China did not even have a modern mechanically scanned radar on a fighter jet until early 2000. The reason is pretty simple. China has put far more investment in its military industrial complex in the past 20 years. The gap in that investment will keep increasing as the Chinese economy keep growing.

As PAF receives its JF-17 and J-10C, it will also see their combat capabilities go up more quickly than IAF's Rafale. We may not see changes from external appearance, but you can make a lot of upgrades with software upgrades and also with newer generation electronic equipment. One good example is J-20 two seaters. From the outside, it looks like they just added a second seat, but this project was actually delayed by a couple of years as they are trying to incorporate the latest technological upgrades. And supposedly these changes will allow them to achieve a level of situation awareness that's not even possible with the original J-20. That's a lot of where future upgrades for these fighter jets come from. How good are their situation awareness? How good are they at keeping themselves hidden from different opposing fighters? I'd bet over the next 10 to 15 years, you will see greater improvements in this area in J-10C than Rafale as it leverages some of the gains from J-20 program.

When JF-17 first came out, PAF did not feel comfortable with Chinese avionics. How many people have the same hesitations now with JF-17 Block 3? I'm sure everyone on this board and with PAF has seen how much improvement have been made in block 3 compared to the original version. Have faith that you will see the same improvement in J-10 or Z-10 or whatever else Pakistan might be interested in the future.

There has been a view that Chinese product is behind the west and Russia. Chinese training is also behind. In fact, I find that's something Indian Internet warriors (and maybe even more serious people inside Indian military) hold on to in order to justify their belief that all the stuff China is building is overhyped. I don't have a problem with it. Even I'm surprised by some of the improvements they have made. It's hard to keep track of all the improvements they've made. I will use China and Russia as an example. You may have noticed that PLAAF and RuAF have not had any joint exercises even though China has annual exercises with PAF. The main reason from Chinese side is that they don't want to embarrass the Russians (who have helped them a lot to get to this point). When they got su-35, they could not believe how much of a gap existed in the radar/avionics between their own J-16 and Su-35. They asked the Russians repeatedly and that really was the best that the Russians could offer. You know Su-30MKIs are in trouble when the most realistic future upgrade plan is to use the same radar/EW suites that Su-35 uses. While J-10C and JF-17 block 3 are smaller, they will be able to have much better situation awareness than MKIs through this newer generation of electronics. Rafale is a different story, but IAF has a limited number of them. The biggest mistake India made was getting themselves into the MKI project and than into Su-57. These 2 Russian projects have squandered all the financial advantage they have over PAF.

There has also been a desire on this thread for flankers. I think flankers do have a pretty big advantage over J-10/JF-17 by being just a lot larger. They basically fitted the largest and most power consuming radar/avionics they can put on J-10 and JF-17. But obviously, there are realistic space limitations on J-10 compared to flankers. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure China would never export flankers due to its Russian relationship. It actually would be of help for PAF I think. J-16D recently entered into service with PLAAF. I think it's going to be a true force multiplier. I don't think IAF has a dedicated EW aircraft. If PAF can work with China to get a dedicated one (whether based on like a two seat version of J-10 or something larger), it would give PAF quite an advantage here.

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## tphuang

Windjammer said:


> The J-10C, are expected to replace the PAF’s 87 delta-wing Mirage III ROSE fight- ers, which remain quite old despite integra- tion of modern avionics, satellite navigation and Italian Grifo radar.
> Now for a comparison of the Rafale and the J-10C: in size, Rafale is 15.27 metres in length and has a wingspan of 10.80 m. The J-10C, which is an upgraded version of the J-10, measures 15.49 metre in length and has a wingspan of 9.75 m. In terms of thrust, weight and range, the J-10C has an empty weight of 8,850 kg against Rafale’s empty weight of 9,850 kg. The Rafale is heavier by one tonne when empty but has a far greater thrust coming out of its twin engines.
> The Rafale has a 20 percent greater thrust for just 11 percent higher weight than the J-10C. This means for the same weight of fuel and weapons, Rafale is going to have a thrust- to-weight ratio far better than the J-10C which means better agility and higher energy which is the deciding factor within visual range (WVR) combat. Moreover, the Rafale has a range of 3,700 km as compared to the 1,850 km that the J-10C offers. One aspect where the Rafale trails behind the J-10C is speed; while the Rafale has a maximum speed of Mach 1 (1,912 km/h), the J-10C is blazing ahead at Mach 2.2 (2,400 km/h). The J10C also in- corporates thrust vectoring on its engine for enhanced manoeuvrability, which the Rafale lacks. The J10C also has the upper hand in speed, climb rate, and operational altitude over Rafale. Although Rafale is a twin-engine fighter, its engines’ thrust is similar to J10C. J10C’s 19.3 tons maximum take-off weight is much better than both F-16 and JF-17, however short of Rafale’s 24.5. The larger the take- off weight, the larger payload and fuel an air- craft can carry. Thus, J10C can perform close to Rafale, giving it an upper hand against the current aircraft in the PAF fleet.
> In terms of air-to-air missiles, the Rafale is equipped with the Meteor BVR missile, which has a range of 100 kilometers plus on the other hand, J10C is coming with the PL-15 air-to-air missiles, which have a range of 200 kilometers plus. Thus, the J-10C is considered one of the most capable single-engine fighters in the world and is comparable to Rafale in size, aerodynamic characteristics, aviation, and weapon systems.
> 
> _The writer is a former PAF Group Captain and an author_



I have to dispute this part. J-10C will be use probably a 14t engine rather than the original 12.5 AL-31F. As far as I can tell, Rafale is still using 2 M88s which produces about 15t in wet thrust. I don't think Rafale will have a noticeable advantage over J-10C in T/W ratio. Now, it may turn better than J-10C for other reasons, but the engine part is not true.

Where I think Rafale really excels in is stealth. It's probably the most stealthy 4th generation aircraft if you just look at it. On top of that, it seems to me that the French really worked hard to lower its emissions, so that it's radar scanning is harder to pick up by opposing passive receivers. On the flip side, J-10C probably will have a more powerful radar (it has a lot more T/R modules) doing scanning. So, it will be interesting to see how that works out. Again, detection through active or passive means can all be improved over time through training and software upgrades.

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## Super Falcon

Paf should opt new colour scheme thunder and falcon schemes sucks

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## JawadKKhan

cssniper said:


> Here's another joke to share, got it from chinese internet.Pakistan will become "the second country" which get both F-16 and J-10 in service, guess who's first haha.🤣🤣🤣


: ) Well that could be the same theory which people were discussing here OR it could be referring to island of Taiwan.. As Taiwan also comes under One country policy of China. 

So, yeah Pakistan will become only second country to have these 2 birds

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## Bossman

Super Falcon said:


> Paf should opt new colour scheme thunder and falcon schemes sucks


Why don’t you suggest one? I think there is nothing wrong with the color scheme.

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## The Eagle

Super Falcon said:


> Paf should opt new colour scheme thunder and falcon schemes sucks



Like rose mist colour with purple or blue discharge due to light reflection?


JawadKKhan said:


> : ) Well that could be the same theory which people were discussing here OR it could be referring to island of Taiwan.. As Taiwan also comes under One country policy of China.
> 
> So, yeah Pakistan will become only second country to have these 2 birds



So, J-10C is coming?

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## Gripen9

KaiserX said:


> Exocets cant be tossed around. The air launched versions cant be modified. PAF specifically modified a squadrons of Mirages for anti ship missions. The PAF will use both Mirages/JF17s for anti shipping operations. PN will provide Orions/Propellers/Helicopters for its air arm.
> 
> Neither the PAF nor the PN will carry out a long range anti shipping mission for which a SU35 would be needed. Pakistans coastline is not too far. Can easily be covered by existing platforms let alone land based launchers.


Exocets (AM-39) were bought in 1979 to be used by Mirage VPA3/Atlantique/Sea Kings and were actually funded by PN. They are now being solely used by PN Sea Kings. No 8 Sqn is now operating armed with REK SOW.

As far as long range AS platform is concerned, do you think Russia will release KH-35 or any other long range Anti ship missile to Pakistan even if Su-35 are sold?

Best bet would be a Chinese twin heavy platform. Which PAF most probably has already evaluated.

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## FuturePAF

HAIDER said:


> This is my assessment too ...Chinese already tested J10 against S400 ..... for India *it's only a useful anti ballistic missile weapon..*



Until that too is countered with the new hypersonic gliders / MaRV warheads on top of higher energy carbon fiber canister launched smaller missiles with the same ranges as the current missiles. But that’s a topic for another thread.









The Army Has Finally Revealed The Range Of Its New Hypersonic Weapon


The missile's range would've violated a now-defunct treaty with Russia and this disclosure comes amid criticism of its utility in the Pacific region.




www.thedrive.com


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## serenity

J-10 is a low wing mounted fuselage - wing design. F-16 is a mid wing mount. These two are aerodynamically extremely different. Not to mention canard vs conventional layout difference between the two which again makes J-10 more different to F-16 than F-18 is to F-16. Another massive aerodynamic difference is F-16's intake type vs J-10's J-10A uses a different intake type than F-16 and J-10B and C both use DSI which again is different. Three different separate intake types used between J-10A, F-16, J-10B and C.

Wing fuselage blend is used by both but Su-27 and Mig-29 also use wing fuselage blend. Same as Mirages, Rafales, EF Typhoon. This doesn't mean that much since many 4th gen fighters use these lateral wing fuselage blends. Just because there are similarities between J-10 and F-16 doesn't mean any allegedly fuselage section was used as a direct set of inspirations for very general design choices. If there ever was some fuselage section given over, I'm sure they are studied and notes formed but their value is highly doubtful.

It's not hard for anyone even some here to give a general design of a fuselage. Give yourself a pen and paper and you can think of 10000 but do they work well is down to specific details. Since J-10 is not even close to 1:1 copy of F-16 fuselage, they are formed based on very different choices but similar engineering principles. That is true for every other fighter based on similar engineering principles back in the 4th generation.





\
Mid mounted wings where F-16's bottom side looks like J-10's top side in terms of how much of the back fuselage is supported below wing mount.






Nearly Mirage 2000 flatness on bottom side with low mount wing design.





low wing mount.





mid wing mount.

F-16 fuselage if ever even given to China, was clearly not used as a direct design choice for J-10. Maybe they looked at it and thought okay Americans are at this level, look at their surface finish, how they rivet it, materials, thickness, thermal conductivity and so on. Not the design. Design part is both easiest and hardest because easiest since anyone can draw some and make some various ideas work is hard especially work in combination with every other aspect of the aircraft such as internal systems.

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## Beast

luciferdd said:


> The Frenches are good technical cooperation partner,you can nearly get everything you want from them as long as you can pay for it.


The French and European are scheme businessman unlike american. They know China will sooner master such technology. So why not make some money while u still can?

The Holland ASML are now trying to sell lithography machine to China despite US objection. Becos China now has just started delivered such machine of 28nm grade. Soon 14nm to 5nm are on the way. Why waste such opportunity to make money?

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## luciferdd

SQ8 said:


> You clearly aren’t understanding what I am inferring to - knowledge was transferred to China from a variety of sources that helped in the design of the J-10. That doesn’t mean they used the exact HUD or even the rivet size from the F-16 or Lavi.


I mean this scene" When the F-16 first arrived in Pakistan a visiting PLAAF general was invited to look at it. As he sat in the cockpit he took his two fingers and started measuring the heads up display which caused the US support staff to panic. Now why was one of the most senior PLAAF officer measuring the HUD of a US fighter? Was he trying to copy it? Or take the information back to your engineers ? " is not exist,OK?China had been sended their pilots to Europe to drive their new Jet include Mirage 2000 for test at 1980S.Researching a wreckage of F16 maybe has some help,but it's not a determining factor.

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## SQ8

luciferdd said:


> I mean this scene" When the F-16 first arrived in Pakistan a visiting PLAAF general was invited to look at it. As he sat in the cockpit he took his two fingers and started measuring the heads up display which caused the US support staff to panic. Now why was one of the most senior PLAAF officer measuring the HUD of a US fighter? Was he trying to copy it? Or take the information back to your engineers ? " is not exist,OK?China had been sended their pilots to Europe to drive their new Jet include Mirage 2000 for test at 1980S.Researching a wreckage of F16 maybe has some help,but it's not a determining factor.


Ok
Lets agree to disagree. Ill believe a former PAF AVM who was there at the time of the incident and ACdre who even wrote about it.. You on the other hand have no credentials to back up your dismissal of events

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## Raider 21

SQ8 said:


> Ok
> Lets agree to disagree. Ill believe a former PAF AVM who was there at the time of the incident and ACdre who even wrote about it.. You on the other hand have no credentials to back up your dismissal of events


Heard this even from a PAF Senior Engineering Officer assigned to a Viper squadron at the time.

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## SQ8

Raider 21 said:


> Heard this even from a PAF Senior Engineering Officer assigned to a Viper squadron at the time.


Fanboys will be fanboys regardless of which nation they are from - no need to waste anymore time arguing with them.

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## luciferdd

SQ8 said:


> Ok
> Lets agree to disagree. Ill believe a former PAF AVM who was there at the time of the incident and ACdre who even wrote about it.. You on the other hand have no credentials to back up your dismissal of events


“took his two fingers and started measuring the heads up display" and then you can copy a HUD,LOL....do you really believe it?Why not imagine the general scaned the whole F-16 and copy one?

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## Beast

tphuang said:


> I've seen some hesitations on this and other thread about purchasing Chinese weapons, whether it's J-10C or Z-10. So, I will try to put you guys at ease about this. There has been huge technological advances in the Chinese military industrial complex in the past 20 years. But for the sake of this thread, I will just use fighter jet as an example. Back 20 years ago, China was still iterating through J-8II variants as its best aircraft. Just last month, they flew the first twin-seated 5th generation aircraft in the world.
> 
> If you look at Rafale's development from its first flight in 1991 until now and compare that to J-10 from 1998 until now. There has been a greater improvement in J-10 over a shorter timeframe. Just take a look at how long it took the Europeans to put AESA radars on the Eurocanards. China did not even have a modern mechanically scanned radar on a fighter jet until early 2000. The reason is pretty simple. China has put far more investment in its military industrial complex in the past 20 years. The gap in that investment will keep increasing as the Chinese economy keep growing.
> 
> As PAF receives its JF-17 and J-10C, it will also see their combat capabilities go up more quickly than IAF's Rafale. We may not see changes from external appearance, but you can make a lot of upgrades with software upgrades and also with newer generation electronic equipment. One good example is J-20 two seaters. From the outside, it looks like they just added a second seat, but this project was actually delayed by a couple of years as they are trying to incorporate the latest technological upgrades. And supposedly these changes will allow them to achieve a level of situation awareness that's not even possible with the original J-20. That's a lot of where future upgrades for these fighter jets come from. How good are their situation awareness? How good are they at keeping themselves hidden from different opposing fighters? I'd bet over the next 10 to 15 years, you will see greater improvements in this area in J-10C than Rafale as it leverages some of the gains from J-20 program.
> 
> When JF-17 first came out, PAF did not feel comfortable with Chinese avionics. How many people have the same hesitations now with JF-17 Block 3? I'm sure everyone on this board and with PAF has seen how much improvement have been made in block 3 compared to the original version. Have faith that you will see the same improvement in J-10 or Z-10 or whatever else Pakistan might be interested in the future.
> 
> There has been a view that Chinese product is behind the west and Russia. Chinese training is also behind. In fact, I find that's something Indian Internet warriors (and maybe even more serious people inside Indian military) hold on to in order to justify their belief that all the stuff China is building is overhyped. I don't have a problem with it. Even I'm surprised by some of the improvements they have made. It's hard to keep track of all the improvements they've made. I will use China and Russia as an example. You may have noticed that PLAAF and RuAF have not had any joint exercises even though China has annual exercises with PAF. The main reason from Chinese side is that they don't want to embarrass the Russians (who have helped them a lot to get to this point). When they got su-35, they could not believe how much of a gap existed in the radar/avionics between their own J-16 and Su-35. They asked the Russians repeatedly and that really was the best that the Russians could offer. You know Su-30MKIs are in trouble when the most realistic future upgrade plan is to use the same radar/EW suites that Su-35 uses. While J-10C and JF-17 block 3 are smaller, they will be able to have much better situation awareness than MKIs through this newer generation of electronics. Rafale is a different story, but IAF has a limited number of them. The biggest mistake India made was getting themselves into the MKI project and than into Su-57. These 2 Russian projects have squandered all the financial advantage they have over PAF.
> 
> There has also been a desire on this thread for flankers. I think flankers do have a pretty big advantage over J-10/JF-17 by being just a lot larger. They basically fitted the largest and most power consuming radar/avionics they can put on J-10 and JF-17. But obviously, there are realistic space limitations on J-10 compared to flankers. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure China would never export flankers due to its Russian relationship. It actually would be of help for PAF I think. J-16D recently entered into service with PLAAF. I think it's going to be a true force multiplier. I don't think IAF has a dedicated EW aircraft. If PAF can work with China to get a dedicated one (whether based on like a two seat version of J-10 or something larger), it would give PAF quite an advantage here.


I don't think it's a matter of Chinese having little aerial exercise with Russia gonna do with less embarrassment for Russia. PLAAF could have sent less advance fighter but they didn't.

Remember China even send J-20 for first foreign exercise with Russian. Seems like they are not afraid of revealling it's RCS signature to Russian. Also it's a big trust from China compare to aerial exercise with Pakistan where J-20 is still secretive and not included.









China, Russia joint drills conclude with live-fire anti-terrorism operation featuring J-20 - Global Times







www.globaltimes.cn

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Stop kissing ----.


Behave

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## Riz

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Not too long to see them in our Skies along with F16s.
> View attachment 806683


We cant fly F-16 with chines J-10 in and out of Pakistan , US has not allowed us

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## Beast

Riz said:


> We cant fly F-16 with chines J-10 in and out of Pakistan , US has not allowed us


Not sure how US gonna do it when both J-10C and F-16 in Pakistan hands.

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## MH.Yang

Beast said:


> Not sure how US gonna do it when both J-10C and F-16 in Pakistan hands.


take a video with the plane and send it to tiktok

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## Riz

Beast said:


> Not sure how US gonna do it when both J-10C and F-16 in Pakistan hands.


our F-16 flying with Jf-17s , after the arrival of J-10 in Pakistan then there will be no restrictions on it


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## Indos

Beast said:


> Not sure how US gonna do it when both J-10C and F-16 in Pakistan hands.



Same like F 16 and Sukhoi 27/30 in Indonesian hands

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## luciferdd

Beast said:


> Not sure how US gonna do it when both J-10C and F-16 in Pakistan hands.


Through a confrontation training between J-10C and F-16B52，China may know more about old F-16 B52 but the US will know more about the J-10C.To sum up, China will even suffered losses....


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## JawadKKhan

The Eagle said:


> So, J-10C is coming?



Not at all.. only JS-10 are coming!  Its a combo of J-20 and J-10

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## Imran Khan

JawadKKhan said:


> Not at all.. only JS-10 are coming!  Its a combo of J-20 and J-10


hope nothing will come we will got 5th gen strait

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Stop kissing ----.


I never kissed you

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## GriffinsRule

Windjammer said:


> *For those wondering about the number of hard points on a J-10......here all 11 stations visible and loaded.*
> 
> View attachment 806707


Quite a disappointing loadout especially for a delta wing jet. Even the F-16A in comparison could carry 18 Mk-82 bombs on MERS, a centerline tank and two wingtip missiles. 

In any real combat scenario, the two hardpoints under the chin would have an LDP and a EW pod, and the underwing stations will have guided weapons instead of free fall dumb bombs, making the two hardpoints by the engine mostly pointless (they seem like it was almost a design afterthought anyways). Even here the F-16 is better for A-G role where it can carry pods on two chin-stations, 2/3 tanks (+2 cfts), 2/4 LGBs and 4 A-A missiles. 







Point I am making is, lets not harp about the 11 hardpoints available, if they can only be utilized for unguided free fall bombs. That is for a bygone era. J-10 is not a mud-mover; its comfort zone will be in air to air engagements where only 7 hardpoints will factor in, like most single engine jets.

Another point to ponder is why we have not seen Chinese jets carrying guided bombs on dual racks like the GBU-12s pictured above on the F-16? Does it shows a certain lack of design expertise perhaps? Their LGBs seem to be blocky without folding fins though they have shown smaller (100-125kg bombs in 2020).


Ali_Baba said:


> For the 11 hardpoints, we still need to know if the last 2 hardpoints carrying dumb bombs in that picture can host smart weapons with a databus to them or not... That is the million dollar question right now ( well - to me at least - but i dont have a million dollars if anyone asks ... ).
> 
> The front 2 hardpoints under the chin are smart - as they can carry jammers and laserr designation pods - the question is really for the last 2 which are just infront of the engine on the underside of the fuselage..


In all likelyhood they are not capable of carrying smart weapons and esp not missiles (will interfere with the land gear as there isnt sufficient room for anything longer than what you see.

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## IceCold

Rafi said:


> Let's not make a big deal about helping each other, China and Pakistan cooperation has many layers and "cherries" on top.


....nuff said......

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## araz

JawadKKhan said:


> Not at all.. only JS-10 are coming!  Its a combo of J-20 and J-10


Is main murghi kaun si hai or murgha kaun hai. 😇😅🤣😂. Sorry could not resist the cross breeding assumption. 
A

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## cssniper

GriffinsRule said:


> Quite a disappointing loadout especially for a delta wing jet. Even the F-16A in comparison could carry 18 Mk-82 bombs on MERS, a centerline tank and two wingtip missiles.
> 
> In any real combat scenario, the two hardpoints under the chin would have an LDP and a EW pod, and the underwing stations will have guided weapons instead of free fall dumb bombs, making the two hardpoints by the engine mostly pointless (they seem like it was almost a design afterthought anyways). Even here the F-16 is better for A-G role where it can carry pods on two chin-stations, 2/3 tanks (+2 cfts), 2/4 LGBs and 4 A-A missiles.
> 
> View attachment 806803
> 
> 
> Point I am making is, lets not harp about the 11 hardpoints available, if they can only be utilized for unguided free fall bombs. That is for a bygone era. J-10 is not a mud-mover; its comfort zone will be in air to air engagements where only 7 hardpoints will factor in, like most single engine jets.
> 
> Another point to ponder is why we have not seen Chinese jets carrying guided bombs on dual racks like the GBU-12s pictured above on the F-16? Does it shows a certain lack of design expertise perhaps? Their LGBs seem to be blocky without folding fins though they have shown smaller (100-125kg bombs in 2020).
> 
> In all likelyhood they are not capable of carrying smart weapons and esp not missiles (will interfere with the land gear as there isnt sufficient room for anything longer than what you see.


Found some pictures, not sure about their authenticity. 








Let's admit that:j-10 is designed for air combat, interception task, not so good at carrying a lot payloads. 
But I do believe PAF could get help from China to increase the Air to Surface capacities of it (What is urgent and most important for PAF is still to encounter the Rafaels) . LDBs , SDBs, whatever.These are really easier than aircraft designing. 
Relax guys, actually we will get more information about j-10's capacities after PAF get it. They must be eagerness to show us.

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## Bleek

cssniper said:


> Found some pictures, not sure about their authenticity.
> View attachment 806871
> 
> View attachment 806872
> 
> Let's admit that:j-10 is designed for air combat, interception task, not so good at carrying a lot payloads.
> But I do believe PAF could get help from China to increase the Air to Surface capacities of it (What is urgent and most important for PAF is still to encounter the Rafaels) . LDBs , SDBs, whatever.These are really easier than aircraft designing.
> Relax guys, actually we will get more information about j-10's capacities after PAF get it. They must be eagerness to show us.


Isn't that the J10A?


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## RangeMaster

Bleek said:


> Isn't that the J10A?


Yes that's J10A


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## cssniper

Bleek said:


> Isn't that the J10A?


Yes, just take notice of the payloads under the fuselage, look like LGBs.


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## FuturePAF

luciferdd said:


> I mean this scene" When the F-16 first arrived in Pakistan a visiting PLAAF general was invited to look at it. As he sat in the cockpit he took his two fingers and started measuring the heads up display which caused the US support staff to panic. Now why was one of the most senior PLAAF officer measuring the HUD of a US fighter? Was he trying to copy it? Or take the information back to your engineers ? " is not exist,OK?China had been sended their pilots to Europe to drive their new Jet include Mirage 2000 for test at 1980S.Researching a wreckage of F16 maybe has some help,but it's not a determining factor.



Also, back in the 80s US-China relations were decent, even in military equipment, as seen with the work Grumman was providing China in their J-8 Fighter.









Remembering The Time Grumman Helped Craft A Modern Fighter For China


The brief thaw in America’s relations with China in the 1980s yielded this surprising hybrid fighter program led by Grumman.




www.thedrive.com


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## ziaulislam

denel said:


> Thanks for correction; J8 was an ugly concoction of someone having a hangover and double vision .


Not bad for first attempt though
It did worked


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## messiach

Congradulations @All

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## Shotgunner51

messiach said:


> Congradulations @All


I think it's too early to cheer for (or hate) the deal, this rumour is not confirmed thus far. It originated from Interior Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed saying "_J-10 will attend the Pakistan Day ceremony on 23 March 2022_", it does not exclude the possibility that he actually meant "J-10 (of PLAAF)" till this very moment. Judging by observations and some facts, in my opinion no such deal can possibly be made.


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## Windjammer

Shotgunner51 said:


> This rumour is not confirmed thus far. It originated from Interior Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed saying "_J-10 will attend the Pakistan Day ceremony on 23 March 2022_", it does not exclude the possibility that he actually meant "J-10 (of PLAAF)" till this very moment. Judging by observations and some facts, in my opinion no such deal can possibly be made.


He also said that Pakistan or rather PAF acquired these to counter the Rafales. 
Which leaves out any other possibilities.

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## HRK

Shotgunner51 said:


> I think it's too early to cheer for (or hate) the deal, this rumour is not confirmed thus far. It originated from Interior Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed saying "_J-10 will attend the Pakistan Day ceremony on 23 March 2022_", it does not exclude the possibility that he actually meant "J-10 (of PLAAF)" till this very moment. Judging by observations and some facts, in my opinion no such deal can possibly be made.


I as per non-official version of J-10 story the agreement for J-10 was signed in the last quarter of the 2020 .... you can consider it rumore or unsubstantiated reports.

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## Shotgunner51

Windjammer said:


> He also said that Pakistan or rather PAF acquired these to counter the Rafales.
> Which leaves out any other possibilities.





HRK said:


> I as per non-official version of J-10 story the agreement for J-10 was signed in the last quarter of the 2020 .... you can consider it rumore or unsubstantiated reports.


I agree with you these are signs/intel that suggest the deal could be real, though I am still skeptical citing other signs/factors.

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## Windjammer

Shotgunner51 said:


> I agree with you these are signs/intel that suggest the deal could be real, though I am still skeptical citing other signs/factors.


Well the other hunch is the DG ISPR press conference, he could have outrightly denied the affair instead he played it down by commenting that inducting of J-10 is just a routine matter.

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## Shotgunner51

Windjammer said:


> Well the other hunch is the DG ISPR press conference, he could have outrightly denied the affair instead he played it down by commenting that inducting of J-10 is just a routine matter.


Yes I've seen his response towards this question raised by a reporter as well, his first response was "_I can't confirm anything on that account ..._", then followed by an apparently PR-type response (no specifics mentioned) that serves a general reassurance to the public aka PAF is always in control of the situation vis-a-vis IAF threat. Since that's not a prepared statement but responding to a report's question, I tend to put more weight on his first/instantaneous response.

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## Scorpiooo

Dought to have 25 J10s jet flypast on 23 march. 

Secondly 25 jets is not PAF sqr size numbers at all

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## maverick1977

cssniper said:


> Found some pictures, not sure about their authenticity.
> View attachment 806871
> 
> View attachment 806872
> 
> Let's admit that:j-10 is designed for air combat, interception task, not so good at carrying a lot payloads.
> But I do believe PAF could get help from China to increase the Air to Surface capacities of it (What is urgent and most important for PAF is still to encounter the Rafaels) . LDBs , SDBs, whatever.These are really easier than aircraft designing.
> Relax guys, actually we will get more information about j-10's capacities after PAF get it. They must be eagerness to show us.




Damn, 11 hardpoints, thats massive, do we know the 11 hardpoint max loading? is the engine 132KN and above?


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## Qmjd

You ate back


messiach said:


> Congradulations @All


Great


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## Windjammer



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## tphuang

Shotgunner51 said:


> I think it's too early to cheer for (or hate) the deal, this rumour is not confirmed thus far. It originated from Interior Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed saying "_J-10 will attend the Pakistan Day ceremony on 23 March 2022_", it does not exclude the possibility that he actually meant "J-10 (of PLAAF)" till this very moment. Judging by observations and some facts, in my opinion no such deal can possibly be made.



Chinese side have said since last year that not only is there an order, but that PAF requested for it to be delivered very urgently. Again, my point about delivery timeframe is a great factor for J-10C. That's the difference between getting a mature aircraft vs getting one that has still a lot of work to do. PAF is essentially going from signing the contract to taking delivery of 25 in a year.

For most aircraft producers out there, you need a much greater lead-time. So, I would not be surprised if PLAAF deferred some of its own orders so that PAF can get them first.

Depending on PAF's experience with J-10 over time, they may request for another order in the future with greater lead time and more PAF specific requirements. Certain design decision made for J-10 is based on PLAAF requirements in the 80s. So, it's been mostly an air superiority aircraft over its life time. In its current role with PLAAF, it really doesn't have the role of multi-role aircraft either. So maybe PAF will find over time that it wants certain changes with J-10C like a two seat version that's better suited for multi-role purposes. Regardless of how much you do with JF-17, it has certain size limitations that cannot be overcome. So if PAF does enjoy its first batch of J-10Cs, I think the next order will probably have some changes that make use of its greater size and thrust over JF-17 and F-16s.

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## waz

Does anyone know what roughly the engine overhaul interval time is for the WS-10B?
@Shotgunner51 
@Deino

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## ghazi52



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## Scorpiooo

Whats is operational cost per hour for J10?


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## Shotgunner51

maverick1977 said:


> is the engine 132KN and above?


It's 142kN as per Janes or 14.5~15.0 tons per Chinese sources.


tphuang said:


> So, it's been mostly an air superiority aircraft over its life time. In its current role with PLAAF, it really doesn't have the role of multi-role aircraft either. So maybe PAF will find over time that it wants certain changes with J-10C like a two seat version that's better suited for multi-role purposes.


Yes its role did change with time.

A simple look at it (over 16m long but narrower wing span, smaller wing area) can tell that it's originally designed for air superiority, or in Soviet/NK terminology a high-speed interceptor, as opposed to say Rafale (shorter, wide span, large wing area) which looks like a "mini-bomber" (French uses it to carry cruise missile) as well as having low-speed maneuverability essential for carrier landing. J-10 was born as A2A bird.

But as J-11 (A, B, and now J-20) gradually picks up air superiority, J-10 is re-positioned as multi-role, in fact in recent years we do see a lot of low-altitude low-speed actions (especially in mountainous terrains favorable for low altitude penetration) by J-10 in PLAAF drills, loadout with targeting pods on precision strike, battlefield air interdiction, SEAD/DEAD. It's a multi-role jet now, at least is "tuned" to be one.

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## maverick1977

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 807128


wow, PL12s up front ?


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## Shotgunner51

waz said:


> Does anyone know what roughly the engine overhaul interval time is for the WS-10B?
> @Shotgunner51
> @Deino


Bro seems like Deino has source, I don't have anything credible yet so let's wait for him.

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## m52k85

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 807140


PAF?


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## The Terminator

Mav3rick said:


> I am reading up on the goodies that are coming our way, the J-10s, Helo's, SAM systems etc.,
> 
> Has anyone wondered where we are going to the get the money from? All this while the Government is looking to tax more, to the point where imported infant formula is being proposed to be taxed and even donations are proposed to be taxed! Is this all Just to maintain our ego? Is this really justified?
> 
> I was also reading up on Business Recorder research report in which they tried to discover why our imports bill is rising steadily and could not substantiate import claims on extra Oil or medicine etc. Now that I am thinking of everything, is it possible that our import bill is going through the roof because of all these imports and that we are hiding the actual imports behind bogus inflated import heads? We are begging IMF, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Turkey, Malaysia and whomever else who would listen to give us aid, loan etc., and are accepting extremely tough and painful conditions and yet on the other hand we are trying to go head to head with India........do we really want to end up like USSR which tried to go head to head with the US? Why isn't anyone talking about this?


We can't buy a thing unless we get them on loan installments. So thanks to China who is now virtually funding our military's acquisition programs through loans. We aren't an industrialized country so our imports would grow regardless of which categories you analyze. Loans+more interest = deadly taxes and inflation resulting into more poverty and lesser buying power for general public.

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## The Terminator

luciferdd said:


> 猛龙诞生记​
> 歼10的诞生，要从1981年开始···
> 在1981年年底，时任国防科工委副主任的邹家华向邓小平建议，开始搞新一代歼击机，预计初期投资在5亿元，在之后形成的正式报告上，邓小平批示“新歼项目较为重要，前期投资5亿左右，目前花钱也不多，拟同意”，就此，新一代歼击机项目正式提上议事日程。
> 当时的中国空军，不是惨，也不是非常惨，而是非常非常惨，由于长期以来国内航空工业积贫积弱，外加当时的空军也是个百年不遇的极品，所以航空武器装备水平一直是个巨大的杯具。虽然早在1964年就由沈飞组装成功了第一架米格21/歼7，但是初期暴露的大量问题和历次政治运动的冲击，使得歼7在长时间内根本没有发挥作用，时任空军司令员吴法宪（这个更是极品中的极品）居然喊出“歼7是活棺材”“宁愿歼6不要歼7”“歼6万岁”等等口号 ···直到1977年邓小平重新上台，主持国防工作会议，才提出“要更新空军装备，要停掉歼6，大力装备改进歼7替代歼6”，而之后四项改进的歼7Ⅱ到1979年才定型，而歼8白天型也是1980年才刚刚定型，直到在80年代初，空军装备的歼7和歼7I总共不过几十架，数千架战机的主体依然是战后第一代水平的歼6，还有大量亚音速的歼5，甚至到80年代中期，具备“全天候作战能力”的歼6甲，依然是“先进战机”，用来换装尖子部队 ···与此同时，美国空军已经装备第三代的F15和F16上千架，美国海军的F14也装备10余年了，苏联的米格29也已经批量服役，苏27也即将开始进入空军和防空军服役，面对此情此景，真不知道还在幻想当年中国国土防空无比坚固的同学，是哪里来的如此自信？
> 80年代初，属于中美关系的蜜月期，当时中美军事合作非常热络，黑鹰直升机、LM2500燃气轮机、反炮兵雷达等等大家知道的和不知道的武器，都是当时引进的。甚至美国有把中国吸纳为第16个北约成员国的建议，而中国也借机考察了幻影2000，F16和豹2坦克，都认真的进行了谈判，而美国也建议向中国销售F16，甚至F15！
> 但是，邓公当年并没有选择F16，不仅仅因为美国供应的是缩水版的F16/79（换了J79涡喷发动机，飞行性能大降），跟重要的是，邓公从政治角度考虑，拒绝了这宗交易，其中的政治考量在这里我就不多加讨论了。总之，邓公依然下决心，研制自己的新一代歼击机，邓公确实堪称一代伟人。真不知道那些大骂邓公是买办误国的极左们，脑子里到底装了些什么。
> 在新歼研制计划敲定之后，空军和国防科委随后对新歼击机的技术指标提出了要求，总体要求是：2年左右服役，空战性能要比歼8好，要优于米格23，争取达到F16的水平，也就是说，当时新歼的设计目标，就是要求以苏联米格23为假想敌，力争达到当时正风靡一时的F16的水平。
> 在1982年年初，由军队，国防科委和航空部主持，开始第一轮方案论证会。
> 其实对新歼项目，各个厂所都有预研，但当时主要的方案是沈飞的歼13方案和洪都的强6衍生方案。沈飞歼13方案留到后面说，先说一下强6方案：
> 强6是一款后变掠翼的强击机，技术来源是1979年通过秘密渠道从埃及换来的一家米格23MF，中国空军对米格23的后变掠翼技术非常感兴趣，于是将技术分解交与洪都仿制，但是由于各种原因强6最终下马，但之后陆孝彭和洪都设计团队以强6为基础继续改进，把它改成了歼击机方案，也参与了方案论证，但是由于洪都本身实力有限，外加强6方案固有的结构复杂，重量大，可靠性差的弱点，一开始，洪都方案就不被人报以希望。
> 总共只有两个方案，而洪都的方案又不被人看好，这样一来，沈飞歼13，在当时事实上也就已经被内定为胜出方案了。
> 歼13方案，是由沈飞“2号任务”衍生而来的方案，歼13方案最早其实从1971年歼8首飞之后就开始了研制，当时空军对刚刚首飞的歼8性能不满意，尤其对其空战格斗性能非常吐槽。根据越南战争中的教训，空军认为需要研制一种轻小灵活，中低空格斗性能优秀的战机，用来取代歼6，是一款类似于早期型F16的格斗战斗机。这个项目当时被称为“2号任务”，由沈飞和601研制。
> 沈飞/601在设计过程中大量参考了F16的气动布局，也就是常规边条翼布局，最初发动机计划采用正在研制的涡扇6（和在研的歼9使用同一款），但是1979年涡喷15项目立项之后，又计划改用涡喷15，但随着进入80年代后国民经济调整，项目没有进行下去，于1981年3月下马，在1982年年初的第一次论证会上，沈飞方案就是在歼13的基础上完善、丰富的。客观来说，歼13方案的研制基础是扎实的，是一个现实的，的确可以被造出来的一个方案。
> 说到这里，还没有我们的主角成飞什么事，因为当时确实没他什么事，当时的成飞和611，刚刚经历了歼9项目的惨败，正在一门心思抓着歼7Ⅲ这根救命稻草。611所，这个1969年才由“601成都分所”独立而来的年轻设计所，和132成都飞机制造厂一起偏于西南一隅，资历浅人脉弱，一向姥姥不疼，舅舅不爱。这次新歼论证会，航空部压根也没通知611拿出方案参加，只是临时通知611，来4个人到北京参加评审会，帮忙参与评审各家方案。当时宋文骢（后来的歼10总设计师）还在011基地（后来的贵飞）做歼7Ⅲ的技术交底工作，得到通知后就回到成都，带上三个人出差北京，但是宋文骢留了一个心眼，就是让同事把611的新歼鸭翼方案的资料也带上了。PS：个人认为，宋文骢其实可能已经预感到，此行北京可能不仅仅是旁听评审会这么简单。
> 说到这里，相信大家也猜到了，宋文骢带上的这个鸭翼方案，就是后来的歼10。其实，歼10，可以看做是歼9项目的延续，最早的歼10方案，实际上也是直接由歼9方案衍生而来的。歼9项目，是和歼8一起，作为歼7的后续机型被提出来的。在1964年成功仿制米格21/歼7上天之后，航空部就开始考虑歼7的后续机型问题。当时技术人员提出了两种方案：一是气动布局不做大改，在歼7基础上放大改双发；另一个则是气动布局大改，沿用单发，发动机使用在研的涡扇6。这两个方案，前者就是后来的歼8，而后者就是歼9。值得一提的是，第一个歼7放大改双发方案最早的提出者，恰恰就是时任601气动组组长的宋文骢。最早，歼8和歼9两个项目并行，但当时601根本没有能力并行两个项目，处于控制风险的考虑，技术保守的歼8方案被作为主攻方案重点保障，并在1971年很快上天。而歼9项目，当时只得到了601所大约十分之一的研制力量，事实上几乎不可能成功。后来沈阳601所成立成都分所，就直接把研制歼9的小组直接调去了成都。而这个601成都分所，也就是后来的成飞611所了，他们当时的任务，就是继续那个歼9项目。
> 但是这个歼9，却成了新中国航空的一个极为深刻的教训，航空口和军队外行领导内行，瞎指挥瞎折腾，政治挂帅不顾科学规律的老毛病在歼9的研制过程中被表现的淋漓尽致。歼9项目前后先后3次更改设计指标，项目五次上马六次下马，光主方案就有6、7种，各种更改设计方案更是无以计数。经过前后十多年的反复折腾，歼9最终在1981年下马了事，连同涡扇6和霹雳4中距导弹一起完蛋，成为了一个深刻教训。但塞翁失马焉知非福，为了满足军方极高的技术指标，设计人员大胆采用了当时相当时髦的“抬式布局”（也就是鸭翼布局），而在歼9的反复折腾中，611所也对鸭翼布局做了很深的研究，把能做的鸭翼/主翼匹配方案都做了个遍，由此对鸭翼布局有了很深刻的理解，这种对鸭式布局的理解，在世界范围上来说，也是首屈一指的。可以说，没有失败的歼9，就没有后来的歼10，也不会有现在风光无限的611所。
> 空军要搞新歼的消息，其实611所也早有耳闻，虽然没有接到提交方案的通知，但611还是在私下搞出了一个自己的方案，以备不时之需，而这个私下里搞出来的方案，也成了后来扭转局面的关键。
> 可以说，机会只会给有准备的人，611的执着换来了近20年后歼10的腾空一跃。
> 宋文骢一行四人来到北京后，下榻到总装招待所，虽说他们是来参加“方案评审”，但是谁都知道，他们只是过来打打酱油的，而对面沈飞601的汇报团，有整整30多号人… …
> 但是谁没有想到的是，当天晚上，时任航空部军机局副局长的王若松突然到房间找到宋文骢，开口就问611是不是也有一个新歼方案？并要求在明天的评审会上做一个汇报。宋文骢一下子懵了，因为出发前根本没有人通知611拿方案参加评审会。具体其中有何玄机？抑或是611的领导在宋文骢还在半路的时候跟航空部打了个小报告？这些现在都已经无从考证了，呵呵~~不过最终，王副局长还是为611争取到了15分钟的时间，在评审会休息的间隙对自己的鸭翼方案进行汇报。
> 而这不起眼的15分钟，开始了一场戏剧性的翻盘。
> 由于事先毫无准备，611的四个人啥都没有，宋文骢告诉另外三名同事，去隔壁兄弟单位的房间临时借几张明胶片和绘图工具，把一些重要图形、曲线和参数画在明胶片上，而汇报的内容，宋文骢则自己想办法。到第二天，611连个模型都没有，也只能用幻灯片来凑合着汇报了。
> 第二天，在沈飞和洪都汇报的间隙，宋文骢上台汇报鸭翼方案，他只有15分钟，和几张加夜班搞出来的幻灯片，随后，宋文骢从未来战争的形态和需求入手，提出新歼要强调机动性，敏捷性，要有中距拦射，要有电子对抗等等….开始了评述自己的方案，当时他具体讲了些什么，已经无从可知，但结果却是，全场热烈鼓掌，在座所有人都对这个鸭翼方案惊艳不已，表现出浓厚的兴趣，本来已经一边倒内定的沈飞方案，开始出现变数。
> 会议从16号开到了25号，会议上对新歼的气动布局，技战术指标，飞控，配套武器，雷达航电等细节进行了细致的讨论，最终会议决定，会议暂不确定新歼方案，601和611两家继续回去完善各自方案，3个月后再次召开论证会。
> 就这样，611出人意料的逆转，开始和601站在了同一起跑线上。
> 当宋文骢开完会回到611所并把会议情况做了通报之后，611全所振奋，611领导当即宣布集中全所一切力量，不惜代价的进一步完善方案，备战下一轮方案评审。
> 据下一次评审会只有短短3个月时间，而事实上611的10号方案还远没有601的10号方案完善，诸多设计还处于设想阶段。611的方案脱胎于之前下马的歼9，虽说歼9在研制过程中对鸭式布局进行了上万次吹风，但具体到歼10方案，如果要进一步完善，仍需要上万次吹风，短短三个月时间，对611所来说是个严峻的考验。
> 但庆幸的是，位于西南的与611所同期建设起来的庞大风洞群，给611完善方案提供了基础，宋文骢来到位于绵阳安县的风洞基地，却发现基地的试验已经排满，而时间只有3个月，无奈之下，宋文骢和611领导找到基地领导开后门，一番软磨硬泡外加“威逼利诱”之后，基地领导最终同意611利用晚上的时间开夜车，尽量配合工作。
> 就在这3个月中，611集中了全所能够集中的所有资源，完善了提出的10号方案，最终拿出了4个备选方案：
> 一号方案：鸭式布局，腹部进气
> 二号方案：鸭式布局，两侧进气
> 三号方案：增加鸭翼面积，放宽静不稳定性　　四号方案：作为保险，减小鸭翼面积，回归静稳定布局（注：在当时，我们还没有“鸭式布局”这个说法，准确的说应该是“无尾加前翼”布局。）
> 现在我们看到的歼十，可以说是一号和三号方案的结合体，但要说明的一点事，此时的10号方案，跟我们现在看到的歼10，还是有很大差别的，比如当时的歼10鸭翼，是有锯齿的，进气道也是类似F16的椭圆形固定进气道，鸭翼面积也更小，翼身融合度也更低···等等
> 1982年4月，第二次选型会，按期在北京召开，此时，宋文骢带领611所的人带上四套方案，再次参加会议。
> 相比611这次的有备而来，601的10号方案，并没有太大的变化，在3个月时间里，601仅仅对歼13方案做了进一步的充实，并没有做太多的更改，依然是以歼13为基础发展而来的类似F16的常规边条布局，对于611的静不稳定鸭翼方案能不能搞出来，601是很不以为然的。
> 这次选型会，基本是601和611之间的PK，洪都已经彻底沦为酱油男了，此次611的汇报队伍一共有20多人，而601的队伍依然庞大，有30多号人，各类资料也非常齐全。
> 接下来的5天会议中，601和611对各自的10号新歼方案进行了细致汇报，并且对发动机，雷达，飞控，武器等等子系统进行了讨论。
> 会议第一天，由601先汇报，601的汇报时间，从上一次的2小时，充实到了第二次的10几个小时… …但总体与第一次论证会时没有区别。
> 会议第二天，轮到611汇报，宋文骢为主汇报人，宋文骢详细汇报了鸭式布局的涡原理，气动特征，技战术指标等等方面，并提出有腹部和两侧进气两种不同方案；而针对当时对“静不稳定布局”风险过大的质疑，宋文骢也提出了四号方案作为保险，也就是减小鸭翼面积，回归静稳定布局，作为后路。还提出假如飞控方面进展顺利，则可以加大鸭翼面积，在一、二号方案的基础上进一步提高静不稳定度，这就是三号方案。
> 五天的会议结果是，在场的专家和军队一致倾向于成飞611的鸭翼方案，尤其是军方，态度更是一边倒，而在航空口，“部分专家”对成飞方案，尤其是成飞方案中静不稳定布局，表示风险过大，从而转为支持601的方案，但这种意见，并没有得到大多数人的认同而始终归于少数派。
> 虽然会议上表现出一致的倾向性，但由于依然存在不同意见，外加一些不便明说，大家都懂的因素，第二次会议依然没有确定最终方案，会议决定，两家回去之后继续完善方案，择机再次召开选型会议。
> 事实上，第二次选型会议结束后，结果其实已经揭晓了，此时的601自己都已经不抱希望，而是指望私下的活动，当然，在之后的一年多时间，601和611两边，都没少私下活动，中国国情嘛，大家都懂的。
> 611汇报团队回到成都之后，全所上下自然更加振奋，由于军方和专家组已经表现出很强的倾向性，而且其他单位的参加会议的同志也私下对611方案表示赞同，所以611决定再接再厉，进一步继续完善方案。 而601那边，则已经心知肚明了，所以回去后也就没有再做太多的工作。
> 对于为何611的方案能够半路杀出个程咬金，战胜本已被内定的601方案呢？本人认为有几点原因：
> 第一，611方案各方面确实优于601方案；新歼选型，目标其实很明确，就是力争赶超F16，各家方案均以F16作为参考目标，气动布局也多参照F16（从三家方案都是腹部进气为主就知道了）。601方案脱胎于歼13，而歼13整体布局恰恰参考F16，可以说601方案是占得天时地利的，但601的保守最终让他付出了代价，歼13整体没有采用静不稳定布局，电传飞控，翼身融合等三代机的设计理念。设计之初，歼13是作为替代歼6的格斗机存在的，空军最初对歼13的要求中，有一条是“突出中低空，跨音速区间机动性，雷达可有可无”，一句“雷达可有可无”，就决定了歼13在设计理念上对超视距空战重视不多，可以说这是落后时代的。歼13总体布局参考F16却达不到F16的水准，况且在雷达，发动机，导弹，电子设备等子系统上与F16的差距显而易见，可以说歼13即使能够在2年前服役，也完全不可能达到F16的水准，更妄论赶超了。新歼赶超F16的目标，601方案是不可能达成的，这是601落败的根本原因。
> 而反观611方案，大胆采用当时还属新鲜事物的鸭式布局，属于“三代半”比较先进的布局，更加大胆的采用当时在国内还属于空白的静不稳定布局，虽然招致风险过大的质疑，但毫无疑问，军队对这种更加时髦的方案更加青睐。611还在研制歼9时，就将“拦射”概念，也就是超视距空战概念引入，在宋文骢的主持下，当时611对还属于新鲜事物的超视距空战进行了深入研究，对不同距离和角度下的超视距空战建立了详尽的数学模型，而这些成果，也直接被10号方案所继承。在第一次那场仅仅15分钟的汇报中，宋文骢就很聪明的从歼13方案的缺陷下手，从“未来空战怎么打”切入，来汇报自己的方案，指出歼13方案诸多落后于时代的缺陷，最终得以翻盘，不能不说，宋文骢的空军地勤出身，对空战有实际的理解，比闭门造车的书呆子们要强得多。
> 由此，军队选择风险虽大，但明显更有赶超F16希望的611方案，并表现出一边倒的态度，也是情理之中的。
> 第二，客观来讲，611具备601不具备的，对外合作的机会和成果。611和成飞一向在国内处于边缘地带，改革开放之后，被迫立足于对外合作和出口以求生存，从歼7M项目和英国马可尼公司合作开始，接触西方先进技术的机会要比601多得多，在歼10方案中，之所以敢大胆地提出静不稳定布局和先进火控系统的方案，客观是也是有对外合作作为保证的，事实上，611在后来歼10的设计中，和以色列，法国，俄罗斯进行了广泛的技术合作，歼10的全套航电和雷达，就是从以色列原装引进后加以国产化的产物，而在飞控，结构设计方面，以色列和法国也给予了重要的技术帮助，其中软件开发，人员培训甚至共同设计，都有。而反观601，则一门心思闭门造车，完全立足国内，整体方案必然保守，但此时的军队已经对国内航空业水准不抱任何幻想，由此抛弃601方案，也是情理之中的。
> 第三，也是一个原因，就是军队此时对601和沈飞的忍耐已经到达极限；军队对航空业，尤其是沈飞601一直存在严重不满，601穷极10余年之力搞出来的歼8，根本不堪使用，毛病一大堆，更要命的是，601从来不积极解决问题，而是习惯性的把责任推给军队。当年80年代初歼8白刚刚装备部队，时任歼8第一团团长的就是现任副总参谋长的马晓天将军，歼8装备部队后陆续发现操纵性差，尾翼震颤的毛病，而总师顾诵芬则把责任坚决推给部队，称这是飞行员操作不当造成的，后来官司闹大了，马晓天差点被解职转业，逼得马晓天当着空军司令的面和顾诵芬拍桌子大骂，才让顾诵芬勉强承认歼8设计有缺陷.. ..空军对601这种态度，早已深恶痛绝。
> 而在1984年大阅兵中，歼8由于技术问题，没能参加阅兵，部队火气非常大，以致时任国防部长的张爱萍将军说出“沈飞别搞其他的了，把歼8弄好就行了”这种话。在新歼选型中，军队已经很难再信任沈飞，转而扶持当时相对弱小但更有前途的成飞，也是必然之举。当时的军队和航空部，就有“要把成飞变成中国的达索”的说法，其中大力扶持之意，溢于言表。
> 虽然611方案事实上已经基本胜出，但这才是艰难道路的开始，歼10方案的激进，必然带来高风险，这一点上，航空口部分专家的质疑并不是没有道理的，中国当时完全没有接触过静不稳定布局和电传飞控，能不能搞下去没人知道。而601此时也对611能否把方案进行下去很不以为然，611承受的压力，丝毫没有因为竞标的胜出而有任何的减轻。
> 事实上，82年4月的选型会刚结束，航空部一位副部长就找到宋文骢，直截了当的问611对自己方案到底有没有把握。言下之意，就是你611必须给我摊牌，你是真心打算做出来，还只是在这里忽悠人。宋文骢当时给出了肯定的回答，一定能够搞出来！副部长这才放下心来。
> 除了航空口自己人的质疑，军队的态度也给611无形的压力，前面已经说过了，30多年惨不忍睹的经历，已经让空军对自己的航空工业不抱任何幻想，每一次吹牛放卫星和推卸责任的背后，就是空军进一步加深的失落和不信任，当然空军自身也有责任，但是本国航空工业的羸弱，确实大家都不得不认账的。当时的空军，已经很多次向中央提出要买幻影2000
> ，空军在之前详细考察了幻影2000，对这种既能高空高速截击，又能中低空格斗，还能对地攻击的先进战机心仪不已。葛文墉将军还亲身试飞了幻影2000，得出的结论是，幻影2000
> 在高空高速性能上和歼8差不多，但航电雷达非常先进，中低空机动性好，假如对方飞行员不犯错，我们“没有任何机会”，双方的谈判一度接近成交，双方都非常有诚意，但是法国人在价格上的坚持让他们付出了代价，邓小平亲自出面，会见时任法国总统密特朗，希望法国能给个友情价，但密特朗没有给邓小平这个面子，法国人坚持6万美元的单价，对当时的中国而言，无异于天价，当时准备的所有采购资金，只够买24架空机，这还不算配套武器和配件，最终这笔交易没有成功，而中国则转投了美国，才有了后来的“和平典范”，而相信当沈飞开始“和平典范”计划的时候，看成飞的眼神，已然应该充满了某种傲慢的不屑···
> 虽然幻影2000后来最终泡汤，但是对当时的宋文骢和航空部来说，这无异于军队对他们的表态——“你们搞不出，我就去找法国人买”，航空部副部长就坦率对宋文骢的说，空军很多次提出要买幻影2000，假如你的把握不大，就不要搞了，让空军去买幻影吧；而此时的宋文骢没有退路，他回答，空军要买是他们的事，我只管搞出来自己的方案。副部长问宋文骢最终方案出台还要多久？宋回答说2年，最终，副部长对宋文骢表示了支持，但要求宋文骢必须在一年时间内拿出最终方案！
> 82年第二次选型会之后的整整1年内，宋文骢带着总体气动专业组的人始终忙着模型生产、风洞试验、数据处理、曲线绘制、结果分析、布局改进的循环中；先后完成了3期的高低速风洞试验、流谱观测试验。歼10的总体气动布局，就是在那时候打下的基础，包括复合扭转机翼的理论计算和工程化，都是这个阶段的完成的。
> 此外，在此期间，611在飞控，结构设计，航电设备方面和以色列、法国进行了广泛的合作，说到这里，就需要提一下以色列的LAVI“狮”式战机了，关于LAVI和歼10的关系，网上有很多流言，当然最终是莫衷一是，我只能说自己的观点，歼10和以色列的合作，主要集中在航电、雷达方面，歼10的雷达航电就是全套引进以色列产品之后国产化的，一部分结构设计以色列人有参与，飞控方面以色列有一些技术援助，但是必须明确一点，三代战机，飞控和气动是一体的，没有人能够把LAVI的飞控照搬到歼10上，事实上，LAVI的飞控核心是美国人写的，而且以色列人自己都没完成，歼10能抄什么？而在气动设计方面，LAVI本身就有严重的气动设计缺陷，近距耦合布局和10度后掠角的主翼设计，是的LAVI在高速飞行时又非常严重的姿态上仰问题，这也是LAVI最终被放弃的重要原因，这样一个半吊子方案，611根本看不上。以色列人对611的帮助，主要集中在雷达航电和PW1120发动机接口上（狮所用的PW1120发动机曾经是歼10的备选发动机之一）
> 其实，611飞控的入门老师，是法国人，达索和611在飞控方面的合作很早，可以说是611的启蒙老师，飞控方面，在国内，主要有三个技术流派，一是沈飞，师承毛子；二是西飞，师承英国；而第三个则是成飞，主要师承法国，在80年代航空业刚刚开放的时候，英国和法国在我国航空业对外交流中扮演了非常重要的角色，很多法国人的设计烙印一直保留到现在，不信的人可以看看歼10B和枭龙的垂尾电子舱，跟阵风的有多像。
> 在宋文骢带领611进行详尽方案设计的同时，国防工办也连续召开了一系列会议，讨论了机载电子设备、武器火控系统、辅机成品、试飞测试等等详细问题，并在1983年3月明确了飞机、发动机、武器火控系统、惯性导航系统、飞行控制系统、其他机载设备系统和复合材料几方面进行先期论证的项目、要求、负责单位、参加单位、完成日期。新歼项目子系统的先期研究，开始全面展开… …
> 在1983年9月，在北戴河召开了发动机选型会议，当时会议上有5种发动机备选，据说分别是：涡喷15、太行、通过燃机逆向测绘的F100、涡扇6改、TF41加力版，由于当时尚处中美蜜月期，有可能从美国买到发动机，所以在备选方案中，有TF41这样的“纯美国货”，但会议最终决定以涡喷15做为新歼的配套发动机，太行继续发展，做为未来的配套发动机（但事实却是，知道2011年的现在，我们依然没有见到配套太行的歼10装备部队···。）
> 新歼的配套发动机——涡喷15，是苏联P29涡喷发动机的仿制品，前面说过，中国在1979年通过秘密渠道用歼6从埃及换来了一架米格23MF，并对配用的P29涡喷发动机非常口水，于是立即上马开始仿制，两年后完成测绘，并开始进入仿制，涡喷15的指标很高，最大推力和后来的AL31FN一样，达到12.25吨。但是之后进入90年代，军队决定从俄罗斯引进AL31FN代替了涡喷15，由此涡喷15项目中止，据说当时已经试制出了一些部件，现在，这些部件正躺在某个角落，被岁月的尘埃所覆盖… …
> 新歼采用落后的涡喷发动机，可能是现在的人所不理解的，但是确实也反映出当时航空工业的无奈，涡扇6无疾而终，太行刚刚上马，还遥遥无期，即使在蜜月期，美国也不愿意出口军用大推力加力涡扇发动机，而愿意给一些J79这样的涡喷发动机和TF41无加力涡扇发动机用于教练机，而唯一的引进成果是70年代从英国引进的“斯贝”发动机，但推力小，技术落后，也不堪使用。开历史倒车用回涡喷，也是一个无奈的选择，也气得后来的空军副司令林虎将军破口大骂… …为后来一有机会就换发埋下了伏笔。
> 到1984年2月，航空部第三次召开新歼选型会，这一次国防科工委、空军、相关专家119名到会。结果没有任何悬念，611的鸭式布局方案获得一致好评，被确定为新歼方案。
> 84年5月，5月，国防科工委正式下达关于新歼研制总体单位定点问题的批复，确定新歼研制总体单位为611所和132厂。
> 国民党的税多，共产党的会多，这场历经2年的大PK，在大大小小开了上百场会之后，终于尘埃落定，611最终笑到了最后。
> 随后的84年6月，北京再次召开新歼方案论证会，宋文骢作方案汇报，并和空军最后商定了新歼的重要指标，审查确定了新歼的初步设计，空军对新歼的指标，要求很高，要求在2年装备部队，总体要达到F16和米格29的水准，既要突出中低空跨音速格斗性能，还要兼顾高空高速截击性能，要具备较强的超视距空战能力，较大的航程，较为先进的航电，还要兼顾对地打击能力，总之，空军想得到的要求，都提出来了。
> 1986年1月，邓小平对新歼研制作了批示：“我认为建议很重要，近期花钱也不多，拟可同意”，随后，国务院、中央军委联合发文，批准新歼研制，并列为国家重大专项，研制主体单位为成飞611所和132厂，项目代号10号工程！
> 就此，歼10正式开始了它漫长而曲折的诞生历程！
> 到现在为止，我觉得有必要帮大家理顺一下新歼方案的主要历程，让大家可以清晰的看到一个脉络：
> 1982年2月，在北京召开第一次方案评审会，611当时仅4人与会，临时被通知汇报方案，之后宋文骢用15分钟，把原内定计划打乱。
> 1982 年4月，在北京召开第二次新歼方案评审会，此时成飞有备而来，沈飞方案事实上已经落败。
> 1982年4月第二次选型会后，611所继续进行新歼方案的深入完善。
> 1983年3月开始，先期安排相关子系统开始论证和预研。
> 1983年9月，新歼发动机选型会召开，会议确定涡喷15为配套发动机，但太行继续发展。
> 1984年2 月，第三次选型会召开，611最终胜出。
> 1984 年5月，国防科工委正式下发文件，确定新歼研制总体单位为611所和132厂。
> 1984年6月，北京再次召开新歼方案论证会，和空军一起确定新歼指标，审查确定了新歼的初步设计。
> 1986年1月，邓小平对新歼作出肯定批复，之后，10号工程正式上马 。
> 1986年1月，10号工程正式上马之后，宋文骢就开始带领611团队开始了进一步设计，但首先，宋文骢做了一件在当时备受非议的事情，就是对当时的战机科研体制，进行了改革，具体说来，就是：
> 首先，建立设计师系统，系统分为3级：第一级为型号总设计师；第二级为系统总设计师；第三级为飞机一次配套新产品的总设计师、主任（主管）设计师。把参与研制的不同行业、部门的设计师都纳入系统管理。
> 其次，建立经济负责制。每一项成品必须坚持先有原理性试验、单个成品试验，再到地面系统试验、机上试验和飞行试验的做法，也就是说，成品不合格，就不给钱。
> 第三，推广应用计划评审技术。严格型号研制程序，编制各级网络图，从方案论证、初步设计、到发设计图和制造、总装几个阶段，每个阶段都必须进行评审，通过评审才能进入下一个阶段。
> 第四，组织重大技术攻关.......对直接影响整个飞机研制进程的技术问题，由总设计师系统组织攻关。
> 可以看出，上述改革措施，都是针对当时航空科研体系的弊病所针对性提出来的。航空装备是极为复杂的大型装备，不仅仅设计到主设计所，更有下面无数配套子系统的研制单位，以前的航空科研体系，虽说也有总设计师，但下面配套分系统的研制单位，和主机所一样属于航空部下属单位，大家平级，关系好的配合，关系不好的，眼皮一翻，你总师姓甚名谁？配套子系统成品研制不受总师掌握，极为随意，想怎么来怎么来，要搞新的子系统设备？可以啊，先把钱拿来再说，拿了钱再慢慢磨洋工，钱不够了打报告再要。相关产品性能不达标，不匹配，拖进度的现象层出不穷，主机所和分系统厂所又没有明确的上下级隶属关系，结果往往就是扯皮，扯来扯去一直到型号完蛋了事。
> 
> 
> 而宋文骢有针对性的进行改革，形成3级管理体系，各个子系统的研制和试验全程由主机所和总师掌控，不配合的，有权进行撤换，而经济负责制更是杜绝了之前不少子系统厂所只拿钱不干活的现象。这一套制度，是从歼7III的研制开始的，宋文骢在担任歼7III总设计师时，就提出了这一套改革方案，而这一套科研体系的改革，意义重大，歼10的研制历程中，始终没有因为质量出现大的问题。
> 但是，“理所应当”的，宋文骢遭受了前所未有的非议：卡脖子、要钱要权、搞独裁的说法纷至沓来，这也很好理解，以前习惯了先拿钱再干活，想怠工就怠工的，没事就爱扯皮的单位，自然不会习惯这一套。
> 但歼10的研制是举国工程，涉及到10个大分系统，100多个子系统，涉及航空、航天、冶金、电子、兵器、化工等十几个部委和行业，作为总师，没有强有力的手段作保障，如何能够统筹、指挥整个工程的推进呢？又如何保证相关分/子系统的研制进度和质量呢？以前太多的教训已经足够深刻了，宋文骢没有别的选择，非议不可避免，但这套改革能够换来10号工程的进度和质量，是值得的！
> 航空业内有个惯例，就是在一架飞机上，用到的新研制的产品比例，不能超过30%，否则这架飞机安全系数就会低到不可接受，而歼10要实现跨越式赶超，新品比例超过60%，用西方人的习惯，这架飞机根本就定不了型。但没有办法，航空业以前太过落后，假如降低风险，那就只能在性能上做出让步，那么我们战斗机赶超世界就依然是个梦想。
> 在歼10的研制历程中，来自各方的冷嘲热讽从来就没有少过，曾经有人这样问过宋文骢：“宋总啊，恕我冒昧，据我所知，搞一个型号飞机少则10年8年，多则10年20年，你今年已经50多岁了，年龄不饶人啊，这架飞机在你手里最终能设计定型吗？”这个问题意思很明白，言下之意就是你宋文骢可能到死都搞不成歼10，这基本上可以认为是红果果的挑衅了，而宋文骢的回答很有水平，“哈，这个问题有意思。我老宋还能活多少年，这架飞机能不能在我手里定型，我说了不算。但有一点可以肯定的是，通过这架飞机的研制，中国一大批现代飞机设计研制的人才肯定会成长起来，我们只要为他们铺好了路，到时候我老宋在不在没关系，自然会有比我宋文骢更高明的人来接着干。”
> 宋文骢，这位特务出身，从空军地勤成长起来的新中国航空设计师，是真正的民族脊梁！宋文骢，早年在云南做红色小特务，曾经只身跑到当地一个国民党保安团，策反国民党团长，当然很可惜没有成功 ···上级没发枪，宋文骢就拎着一把镰刀出任务。后来朝鲜战争爆发，宋文骢当上了空军地勤，亲身体验了那段惊心动魄的空战岁月，这段岁月，使得宋文骢对空战，对战机，有着更为感性和直观的认识。后来宋文骢成为新中国第一代本土年轻设计师，参与设计了新中国第一款自行设计的喷气式飞机——歼教一。宋文骢在工作当中表现的相当积极，他在601时，自己跑到所领导那里，要求成立一个专门主攻气动布局的气动小组，结果他成功了，并成为新中国第一个专供气动布局的专业小组的组长，歼7放大双发大改的方案（即后来的歼8），也是由他最早提出的。
> 但在那个年代，积极，或者是彪悍并不是一件好事，当时宋文骢正计划结婚，但单位在政审后认为他和夫人政治出身不相配，单位不同意他们结婚。但宋文骢没有妥协，他以和单位领导彻底闹翻的代价最终如愿以偿和夫人结为伉俪。但代价也很惨重，在随后的文化大革命中，宋文骢很快就被打成反革命，丧失了工作条件，每天在自己后院种菜度日 ···
> 直到1969年，601成都分所成立，此时的宋文骢，在601已经处于无人问津的地步了，宋文骢听说这个机会后，直接带着老婆打包了行李，没和任何领导打招呼就跟着去了成都····当然没有人追究他的行为，也没人关心这个人要去哪里。
> 随后，在601成都分所，宋文骢和同事一起，开启了歼9的研制，开启了611所的历史。611的诞生不易，生存更加不易，它偏于西南，无人问津，常年靠出口创汇过活。有订单，就有饭吃，没订单就饿肚子，和养尊处优的沈飞/601不一样，611和成飞没有铁饭碗，没有政策照顾和不停的这个那个的项目，它自己的一切都要靠争，靠抢，靠破坏所谓的行业潜规则···所以在歼7ⅡA被空军抛弃后，他们跑去找约旦人，靠约旦的订单保住了歼7M；所以在佩刀2计划搁浅之后，他们依然没有放弃项目，直到枭龙项目的重新启动；所以在新歼的竞标中，他们虎口夺食，没有给老大哥一丝面子。
> 这帮人，的确不容易···
> 此时的歼10，从严格意义上来讲，还不是一架完全的第三代战机，跟现在的歼10也有很大差别。此时的飞机没有完全采用翼身融合设计；鸭翼面积不大，静不稳定度有限，机动性也不是太高；而发动机更是连根毛都看不到，整机动力水平还是大大的未知数。这架飞机究竟能达到什么水平，谁都说不准。歼10研制的难度，超乎想象。
> 除掉技术上的困难，611还面临一个问题，就是缺钱，这个问题曾经几乎让歼10夭折，其实在那个年代，缺钱不奇怪，不缺才奇怪，10号工程的总共投资只有40亿元人民币，这笔钱落实没落实不说，钱要用在10个分系统，上百家研制单位上，摊到611的已经所剩无几，还要拿出来对外合作（主要是法国和以色列），能够用到飞机研制上的钱，我不说你也知道有多少了，没钱就做不了试验，没钱就做不了方案，一分钱难倒英雄汉，歼10的研制，曾经一度因为资金问题，在原地踏步。这个问题直到80年代末时任中央军委副主席的刘华清将军考察成飞，成飞领导趁机说明情况后，才得到了刘华清首肯的资金支持。
> 没技术，我们可以攻关，甚至搞合作；没钱，我们可以熬，可以借；但假如失去军队的支持，歼10的命运就是有一个了，事实上，我再说一遍，从歼10开始研制的第一天起，非议就没有停止过，除了同行的冷嘲热讽看热闹，还有来自军队的不认同。
> 由于对本国航空业不抱希望，空军自己对歼10能不能搞出来基本抱着无所谓的态度，大力支持基本不用指望，不拆台就不错了。在86年10号工程正式上马之后，空军也开始了那个著名的“打脸工程”——“和平典范”工程，国内也称82工程。
> 82工程刚开始时，相信沈飞是一脸的得意，大笔的资金，对外交流的机会，似乎输掉新歼竞标根本不算什么，有后台才是王道，而此时成飞的歼10，却备受资金缺乏，没有上层支持的困扰，至今还躺在图纸上，国内航空业的老大，依然是我们沈飞！
> 然后，大家都知道发生了什么，政府被狠狠地打脸，军队被狠狠的打脸，航空部被狠狠地打脸，沈飞也被狠狠地打脸，而成飞的境况却并没有因为这件事有丝毫改善，因为空军没有和平典范，却又找到了一个新的G点——苏27。
> 1989年，中央军委组织了一个庞大的军事代表团，前往前苏联考察、访问，目的是什么路人皆知，宋文骢也受邀参加了代表团。过程就不细说了，最终结果是，苏27SK这种前苏联的新锐战斗机给中国空军土鳖们的印象，不是震撼，也不是无比震撼，而是“无比无比无比震撼”，这种巨大无比，光内油量就超过歼7空重的战斗机，居然能够达到F16的机动水平，对当时的中国空军而言，惊为天人！以致后来有一个陆军将领在中国见到引进的苏27之后，向身边的随从感叹到：“这飞机这么大，能装一个班吧？”呵呵呵呵… …
> 于是，要苏27！！！要更多的27！几乎成为空军上下一致的的想法，歼10？搞了快10年，连跟毛都看不到，死一边去吧… …
> 代表团回到北京后，就有不少空军将领在会议上提出，苏27性能优异，要大量进口，而歼10搞到现在，连根毛都没见到，干脆下马别搞了，把钱省出来买苏27更合算。对于这种观点。刘华清将军笑而不语，而是先让在场的宋文骢发言，宋文骢起身解释道，苏27的确性能优异，但是和歼10相比，性能各有所长，苏27是替代不了歼10的，两者应该是相互配合。而刘华清点头赞许，然后才亮明观点：苏27再好，也是别人家的孩子，歼10无论如何，就是再困难，也要搞下去！
> 在最困难的岁月，刘华清将军，和空军副司令员林虎将军等少数有真才实学的将领，都对歼10给予了毫无保留的最为坚定的支持！没有他们，可能就没有现在的歼10了。
> 82工程和引进苏27之后，611感受到了前所未有的压力，的确，从82年开始，到89年，整整8年时间，歼10依然躺在图纸上，永远在方案论证、永远在预先研究，但就是看不到东西出来，有领导甚至直接说成飞搞歼10是“5分钱想上长城”根本是不切实际。面对这种情况，成飞决定不惜代价，先造出一架全金属样机，不管怎么样。先把东西摆出来，到时候见到了实物，争议自然平息。
> 全金属样机的制造，是歼10研制历程的一个重要转折点，工程师第一次能够将图纸上的东西变成实物，精确、实际的验证自己的设计和工艺，试飞员能够做到机舱中模拟操作，提出改进意见，为整机技术冻结创造良好条件。
> 决定作出之后，国防科工委和空军都表示了大力支持，到91年初，成飞已经完成发图，开始样机制造，在精心组织之下，到91年8月27日，样机组装完成。其实，此时的样机，还不能飞，只是一个精确的全尺寸模型，而且里面好多设备没有，就用木头刻的代替，甚至用纸盒子占着，管路没有就用绳子代替，总之，先弄出来再说。
> 就算只是这样，这个全金属样机对歼10研制的帮助，也是莫大的。空军副司令员林虎将军听说造好了样机，直接把空军各大军区的司令员全部叫到成飞来看样机，还亲自介绍这个飞机，这架颇具现代感的歼10让司令员们大为赞叹，这样一来，空军内部的争议就平息了不少（但这只是作战部队，而司令部的那群官老爷们的思想，还不是那么好扭转的）。
> PS：此时的样机，跟现在的歼10依然差别很大，最显著的就是进气道还是F16式的椭圆形皮托管结构，这也是配套涡喷15发动机的结果。
> 眼看研制终于走向了正轨，却不想再次遇到问题——这次是老大难，发动机。
> 前面说过了，歼10的配套发动机是涡喷15，但是到90年代初，涡喷15依然在部件试制，距离仿制定型还遥遥无期，眼看歼10连样机都出了，发动机拖进度估计又要重蹈覆辙了。而此时，空军正好在计划从俄罗斯引进了第一批苏27，所以时任国防部长的张爱萍将军提出既然买了苏27，那干脆再配套多买点AL31F发动机，给歼10换上。但这个意见，成飞和航空部当时是坚决反对的，私下抱怨这又是外行领导内行，以为换发动机是换汽车轮胎么？歼10的设计从头到尾都是按涡喷15配套设计的，样机都出来了，这时候换发动机？又要修改设计，又要拖进度，还有完没完了？双方争执不下，最终刘华清将军拍了桌子，必须换！非换不可！没办法，刘副主席都拍桌子了，还能咋办？换吧···
> 1992年，宋文骢作为全权代表，前往俄罗斯进行AL31F的引进谈判，并签订了1台样机和数台试飞发动机的引进合同。为了适应歼10，AL31F做了若干改进，AL31F配套苏27战机，发动机机匣附件放在发动机上方，方便维护，但要配套歼10必须把机匣附件改到下放，此外还有一些小的技术细节进行了改进，改进后的型号被称为：AL31FN，也就是目前歼10的配套发动机。
> 而为了适应AL31FN，歼10做的改进更大，可以说基本又是一个推到重来。首先，AL31FN和涡喷15一个是涡扇，一个是涡喷，虽然最大推力一样，但推力曲线完全不同，原来的简单的不可调的椭圆进气道已经不能满足需要了，由于涡扇发动机高空性能不如涡喷，所以歼10换用了现在的矩形可调进气道，以保证各种高度和速度下的飞行性能；其次，AL31FN要比涡喷15长很多，所以后机身需要延长，相应的需要对整机重心做配平和调整，主翼翼根弦长也大大增加；由于换发，空军对歼10又提出了更高的要求，要求歼10要能够和苏27形成高低搭配，机动性要和苏27相当，这样一来又不得不对气动外形做小幅度更改以满足要求；另外，此时歼10也借鉴了很多米格设计局的设计，包括外置式双腹鳍，这些都是通过超7和米格设计局的合作中学来的。就这样，经过又一轮的设计更改，新歼10才有了现在歼10的造型，此时假如有全金属样机，那么这个样机的样子，已经和现在的歼10相差不多了。
> 到1994年6月，经过2年多的艰苦奋战，成飞完成了换发后歼10的全部设计工作，图纸全部完成，歼10的研制，开始进入新的阶段——原型机制造！
> 假如你问宋文骢，当时研制歼10时，他最担心的是什么，他一定会说——飞控，假如你问他，鸭式布局的歼10设计最难点在哪里，他一定还会说——飞控。
> 什么是飞控？
> 首先要从静稳定和静不稳定两种布局说起，所谓静稳定，很好理解，就是飞机在飞行时，整机的状态是稳定的，这种飞机的气动焦点位于整机重心之后，理论上，在飞行过程中飞行员即使双手不握杆，飞机也能够自动调整飞行状态，保持稳定飞行，飞行曲线是一个正弦曲线，静稳定飞机飞行稳定性更好，但牺牲了机动性能；而静不稳定，则是要把气动焦点放在重心之前，这样机动性会大大增加，飞机变得更加灵活，但同时飞行状态也极端不稳定，传统的机械操作方式，是无法操纵静不稳定战机的，这就需要找一个飞行员的替代物，也就是电传飞控系统。
> 电传飞控简而言之，就是飞控计算机代替飞行员，以每秒十几次的频率自动解算飞行状态并自动控制翼面，保持飞行状态，而在飞行员操作舵面时，也跟传统机械传动不同，飞行员并不直接操作舵面，而是通过操作驾驶杆，飞控计算机自动判断出飞行员想要做什么动作，然后解算出舵面所需的运动量，再控制舵面做相应运动，也就是说，飞行员从始至终在通过飞控计算机操作飞机，而不是传统机械传动式的直接操作舵面，电传飞控的出现，使得静不稳定布局的控制成为可能，战机的机动性得以大大提高。而且电传飞控在操纵品质上拥有一个巨大的优越性，飞行员不必担心拉杆过猛而造成飞机姿态失控，飞控计算机能够自动设置一个操作上限，实现所谓的“无顾虑操作”。
> 飞控系统的核心，就是飞控程序，和电脑程序一样，飞控程序是在地面编写的，飞控程序编写质量的好坏，直接影响到飞机本身的气动性能能否得到发挥。就像显卡驱动，一款好的驱动，能够挖掘硬件的最大潜能，而不好的驱动，则会浪费一块好显卡，飞控的道理也是类似的。
> 除去静不稳定布局，我们还要多说一下“涡升力”，什么是涡升力？简而言之，就是尖锐而薄的翼面在飞行过程中，会把经过的气流切开，而被切开的气流会形成一个高速脱体旋涡。高速脱体涡空气压力很低，假如让脱体涡吹过主翼上表面，那么翼面的上下压力差就会大大增加，从而提高整个机翼的升力（如果这个都不理解，请百度飞机飞行原理），提高飞机机动性。而这种由脱体涡吹过主翼形成的额外升力增益，就叫做“涡升力”。有飞机设计师说过，飞机气动的进化，就是围绕涡升力而来的，在二代布局中，没有涡升力这个概念，而在三代机中，F16和苏27的小边条，F18和枭龙的大尖拱边条，还有双风和歼10的鸭翼，目的都有一个，就是作为涡流发生器，在飞行中切开气流，激起强烈的脱体涡，吹过主翼，从而大大提高升力进而增强机动性。而四代布局，则更进一步，这里就不细说了。
> 但是，涡升力具有强烈的非线性，无法用数学公式做线性计算，也是传统机械操作模式无法控制的，所以二代机无法利用涡升力，而只有三代机运用电传飞控之后，通过计算机的高速运算，才让涡升力的有效控制成为可能。所以说，三代机标准中的“先进气动布局”和“电传飞控”这两条同时出现，不是没有原因的。
> 回到鸭式布局，它的难点，就在于鸭式布局的鸭翼本身既是涡流发生器，又是配平和俯仰操纵翼面，在鸭式布局中，鸭翼置于主翼之前，除了激起涡流吹过主翼表面外，还要作为俯仰操纵面控制飞机，这本身就是极其复杂的。而且鸭式布局的小展弦比机翼本身也会切出涡流！鸭翼脱体涡和主翼脱体涡耦合，相互干扰，两个非线性的涡流相互干扰和融合，不用说你也知道这有多么的复杂。在鸭式布局上，涡流耦合导致的升力非线性要与操纵面的角度偏转配合好，难度就非常非常大，存在非常多的门限，搞不好，就会摔飞机。
> 可以说，鸭式布局的最大难点，就在于飞控，首先我们看看国外另外几款典型的鸭式布局，是如何解决问题的，台风，为了解决涡流干扰和配平操纵之间的矛盾，直接把鸭翼扔的远远的，形成“远距耦合”，这种布局下，由于距离太远，鸭翼涡流对主翼的干扰已经很小了，但同样意味着台风放弃了涡升力这种有益的升力增量，鸭翼远离重心，仅仅作为俯仰操纵翼面。所以台风超音速性能优异，而亚音速性能一般。
> 而阵风，采用了相反的思路，把鸭翼放的与主翼很近，甚至有重合，这样的布局，鸭翼涡流和主翼涡流耦合后会非常强烈，带来很高的升力增量，但同时，由于距离太近，力臂过短，产生的力矩过小，阵风鸭翼的俯仰配平效果很差。阵风整体沿用了幻影2000无尾三角布局的操纵模式，其实可以认为阵风是幻影2000的发展，阵风的鸭翼，可以看作是一个可动的大的涡流发生器，而不是一个有效的操纵翼面。阵风与台风相反，是超音速性能一般，亚音速性能强悍。
> 说到这，也许你会发现，其实欧洲双风都是在回避问题，回避鸭翼非线性涡流和配平操纵之间的矛盾，而瑞典的JAS-39，是一个正面解决问题的例子，只不过不是太成功罢了。
> JAS39采用“中距耦合”，也就是不回避矛盾，正面设计，同时兼顾涡升力和配平操纵，但是很杯具的是，由于飞控编写水平差，飞机根本无法正常起飞，连出事故，最后找万能的美帝出马，编写飞控，最终美帝大能，完美解决问题。不要以为美帝不用鸭翼是因为技术不够，而纯粹是人家懒得麻烦。
> 而歼10，和JAS39一样，没有选择回避问题，而是采用正面设计，中距耦合，兼顾涡升力和配平操纵，歼10的鸭翼面积是所有鸭式布局中最大的，说明其静不安定度更大，敏捷性更高，同时耦合涡流也会更强烈，设计难度也更大。更厉害的是，歼10的鸭翼可以差动，体现出来的对左右涡流的主动控制能力，除了美帝的F15S/MTD验证机，没有见到第二个。
> 可以说，歼10的气动布局，在三代机中，是数一数二的，而其背后，则需要高超的飞控编写能力。宋文骢一直说自己最担心的是飞控，并不是没有原因的。
> 最终，对飞控的担心并没有成为现实，在飞控天才杨伟的带领下，飞控设计团队最终完美的编写出一整套飞控，歼10的飞行品质之高令飞过的飞行员都赞叹不已，之前最为担心的部分，却成为了歼10最为令人称道的地方，可以说，这一点上，杨伟和他的设计团队功不可没。而杨伟这个15岁上大学，21岁就研究生毕业的天才，也成为了继宋文骢之后的611的扛鼎者，顺便说一句，歼20的总师，就是杨伟。
> 在1994年6月完成全部设计图纸后，歼10原型机的建造于1995年8月开始，原型机制造处于高度保密状态，装配车间全封闭，任何外人都无法进入，成都的夏天大家都知道，当时没有空调，可算是苦了成飞那帮人了… …
> 到1997年6月2号，新机完成建造，刘华清将军亲自为新机剪彩，接下来，就是一连串地面试验，为首飞做准备了。
> 然而在之后的地面试车中，却出现了意外情况，第一次地面发动机试车后，机务员却发现发动机叶片被打坏了，经过检查，发现原来是机体加工时，有细小的金属碎屑没有清理干净，在发动机强大的吸力作用下，从机体缝隙中被吸了出来，打到发动机叶片上，造成损坏。之后132厂组织人力做了一次彻底检查，但第二次试飞之后，依然发现发动机叶片和进气道被打坏，这下事情闹大了，611连夜发出20多张图纸改进，封堵相关缝隙了通道，132厂从上到下进行地毯式排查，等到第三次试车，终于没问题了… …
> 在一连串地面测试之后，歼10要开始高速滑行测试，高滑之后，很快就可以首飞了，但是谁都没想到，这个高滑测试，居然成了一个棘手的问题。在第一次高滑测试时，设计人员就发现歼10居然会跑偏，而且找不到原因！无数次高滑测试，能想到的原因都找了一遍，就是解决不了，依然跑偏，这个看似简单的问题居然足足困扰了设计人员半年之久！后来，还是修改了三行飞控程序，起飞时改用副翼控制，最终解决了问题。
> 完成全部地面测试科目之后，1998年3月12日，首飞指挥部决定首飞！当时已经邀请了很多军队和航空口的大领导到场观看，然而就在这个节骨眼上，成飞一个名叫张凤贵的机械员突然发现发动机启动过程中机体漏下了三滴油。这时候离首飞只有十几个小时了，到底飞不飞？不飞？领导都已经到了成都，集体放领导鸽子？飞？带病飞，出事了怎么办？最终经过激烈争吵，指挥部决定再次推迟首飞时间，排查故障。结果，发现是由于俄方问题，发动机改装过程中有几个工艺孔没堵上，结果造成漏油，花了12天，解决了问题。而发现漏油的那个张凤贵，也被人戏称为“张三滴”，哈哈~~
> 最终，1998年3月23日，歼10完成了腾空一跃，首飞飞行员是雷强，这个网上已经有很多介绍了，我就不费口水了。
> 歼10一共建造了6架原型机，分别是01~~06号机，原型机编号为100X，10代表歼10，第三位0表示0批次原型机，而X则是1到6，代表第几架原型机。
> 1001号机，第一架原型机，主要用于气动验证和飞行性能测试，由于超负荷飞行，01号机很快就到了使用寿命退役，现在保存在小汤山航空博物馆；
> 1002号机，静力试验机，构型和1001号一样，完成静力试验后修复，现在是中航工业大厦门前的标志性塑像；
> 1003号机，第二架用于飞行性能试验的飞机，后期也有承担霹雳11的试飞任务，还有部分对地攻击科目和空中加油科目，03号机是亮相最多的一家原型机，这架飞机现在依然在阎良试飞基地执行科研试飞任务；
> 1004号机，主要执行火控系统试飞
> 1005号机，承担飞行测试任务，火控系统试飞和各种电子系统的测试
> 1006号机，最后一架原型机，和05号机一样，也是主要承担各种火控和电子系统的试飞。
> 在1001号机试飞的时候，设计人员发现实际数据和设计值有比较大的差距，原因就是歼10原先配置的是涡喷15发动机，而换装AL31FN后，由于AL31FN要比涡喷15直径大，所以后机身尺寸大大加粗，整个屁股隆起，于是飞行阻力增加；而且虽然AL31FN和涡喷15最大推力一致，但是实际上，涡扇和涡喷的推力曲线完全不同，尤其在高空，涡扇发动机的效率要低于涡喷，所以造成高空高速科目，1001号机的实际数据要比设计值差不少。
> 出现这个问题之后，宋文骢提出趁飞机还未定型，再次修改设计，当然，还是存在不同意见，可以理解，都到了这个地步，又要修改设计，谁都不愿意。但是宋文骢决心已定，一定要达到设计目标！于是，歼10再次修改设计，具体措施就是：对后机身进行瘦身，修形处理；把机翼动作筒做半埋处理，减少阻力；减小飞机表面突起物的迎风，降低阻力；进一步提高机体表面质量，还是减少阻力。
> 通过一系列以减阻为目的的改进，歼10的飞行数据终于达到了设计值，这批修改设计的歼10有两架用于试飞，分别是1013和1016号机，第三位数1，表示试生产型。
> 在歼10首飞成功之后，宋文骢就将试飞组织工作交给了杨伟，自己则继续带领气动设计小组，开始了下一代战机气动设计的摸索，最终，宋文骢提出了“小展弦比升力体鸭式布局”，通过机头涡、前边条涡、鸭翼涡、边条涡、主翼涡等诸多涡流的耦合，达到了空前的气动性能，而这个布局，也进而发展成了现在的歼20。
> 而杨伟在出色组织试飞工作的同时，领导设计了歼10的双座型歼10S，歼10S的设计是在单座型歼10首飞之后才提出的，整个项目军队只给了3年时间，时间非常紧张。但是在杨伟的出色领导下，歼10S成为了中国战机研制历史上第一个“不拖进度，不降指标”的项目。杨伟的领导才能和成飞611的实力，由此可见一斑。
> 在歼10试飞的时期，正是空军对苏27最为迷恋的时期，当时引进的苏27和苏30强大的性能让空军心醉不已，当时，“要两妻，要更多的两妻”“要打赢，要30”的说法是空军上下一致的看法，对歼10，除了刘华清，林虎等少数将领的坚定支持外，其余大部分将领对歼10并不看好，甚至在歼10首飞之后，依然有“把歼10下马，把钱剩下来买苏27”的说法，而且为数不少，当时的空军，无论训练还是风气，都不是现在的这支空军，买苏27，既好又快，还能大拿毛子的回扣，何乐而不为呢？
> 但是在1999年，江CORE在一次偶然的机会，考察了成飞，而成飞也抓住这次千载难逢的机会，雷强把当时首飞不久的歼10飞出了极限性能，江CORE对这款中国人自己设计的战机的优异性能惊叹不已，当即表示要钱给钱要人给人，全力支持歼10。而很不巧的是，就在江CORE回北京不久，空军就有人打报告，建议下马歼10，转而采购苏27，结果可想而知，江哥的愤怒在当时拥有一击必杀效果，空军的将领们见状立即转向，开始支持歼10了···
> 在21世纪初，歼10依然在试飞中暴露了诸多问题，空军对歼10最终性能还是心中无数，苏27，还是正牌。此时，刘亚洲这个有名的大嘴巴到成飞考察，跟几个试飞员聊了起来，说起歼10的性能如何，几个试飞员当即表示，歼10脚踩苏27，拳打苏30，刘亚洲走后把这些话说给了附近一支装备苏27的部队，结果27部队当即表示对方在扯淡。就这样，双方约定了一场打擂台，其实，这时候歼10还在试飞，跟装备多年的苏27打擂台，是不公平的。但以雷强为首的试飞员依然信心十足，因为他们心里清楚，苏27在歼10面前，就是渣渣···这场PK，一共两架歼10，对面4架苏27，过程不说，我也不清楚，直接说结果吧，4:0，苏27全部被击落，歼10毫发无损。
> 这次对抗结果，让空军对歼10刮目相看，其实，歼10还创造过更夸张的战绩，一次空军内部对抗，依然是2架歼10对抗4架苏27，结果歼10僚机半路故障，退出了演习，但歼10长机没有返航，而是1打4，最后让人大跌眼镜，最后4架苏27全部被击落…. ….
> 歼10，是目前空军装备战机中的空战王者！
> 在2003年，歼10还在试飞时，空军就决定先期装备少量试用，这开了一个先河------边试飞边定型边装备的先河，除了歼10，还有一款战机是没定型即装备的，就是枭龙，不能不说，这是客户对成飞的信任。
> 最终，在2003年12月25日圣诞节，徐勇凌完成了最后一个架次的试飞，歼10的整体试飞历时近6年，终于圆满结束!
> 2004年4月13日，歼10通过国家设计定型审核，正式定型！！！
> 这款脱胎于歼9，从82年开始设计，86年正式立项的战机，历经20余载，最终修成正果。在歼10的研制历程，伴随着中国航空工业的成长，也伴随着空军的转变，可以说，歼10是改革开放以来中国军事装备发展历程的缩影，悲壮而艰辛。
> 目前，歼10共计装备了空1师，空2师，空3师，空44师（首批装备歼10的部队），空24师，空9师，海航4师共计7个整编团，另外还有试训中心一个大队，八一表演队一个大队，总计装备数量超过220架，年均装备数量接近30架　　　　装备部队的歼10，表现出色，歼10空战能力出色，飞行品质极佳，深受部队好评，在历次演习对抗中，歼10都取得了很好的成绩，尤其是首批装备歼10的空44师131团，从西南边陲一支三流部队，一跃成为空军中数一数二的尖子部队，装备对战斗力的有益提升，体现的非常典型。由于在军事训练中的突出表现，131团被中央军委授予“模范歼击机团”荣誉称号，这对一支歼击机部队而言，是莫大的荣誉。
> 歼10A的改进型歼10B目前正在阎良做最后的试飞定型工作，预计2012年开始就会有第一批少量歼10B装备部队试用，而歼10B也不是歼10系列的最后一个改进型号，更多的歼10改进型号正在酝酿和进行当中！​


It's some sort of very long and encrypted message. Cant understand. 


Ali_Baba said:


> The J10Cs(when they land) and Block III's will take a little time to mature and become bug free but they will be a significant upgrade for sure. They represent the next evolution of PAFs war fighting doctrine.
> 
> I truly hope that the March 2022 display is led by either the JF17 Block III or J10C, but not the F16. I cannot think of a stronger message to the Americans than the reign of the american diktat over Pakistan's security is now over.


But IMHO our Air Chiefs just know how to fly F-16s only. Never seen them flying anything other than F-16 in the parade.


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

cssniper said:


> These points are truths.
> It just may not happened specifically to "the F-16's fuselage" and J-10.(And this really did not matter in the discussion)
> 
> In my opinion,these things always happened in human history and any countries, it's the easy way to catch up with developing techniques.
> USSR's Tu-4 is an exact copy of US's B-29 bomber,and surely we know US got many German techniques after World War II.(By the way I've heard rumors that USSR got its Nuclear tech from US,though highly unlikel)
> As for China, it's industralising and modernizing its armament , the western world don't like that. China won't give up any necessary ways to achieve it.
> 
> That's a little off topic, so back to the J-10's deal.
> Rafael no dout has a better design for a multirole fighter, given the experience that French have in aviation industry.
> But J-10c is design for air combat supremacy, with the newest radar and misssles,I think it will defeat Rafael in equal fight.
> 
> Well,it is a little fun that if 611institute really got aid from Dassault according to some article,then Rafael vs J-10c is a classic type story about teacher and students.
> Here's another joke to share, got it from chinese internet.Pakistan will become "the second country" which get both F-16 and J-10 in service, guess who's first haha.🤣🤣🤣


Most probably the Chinese are also learning WHY and WHEN.....

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## siegecrossbow

maverick1977 said:


> wow, PL12s up front ?



It’s a J-10A model.


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## Deino

Shotgunner51 said:


> It's 142kN as per Janes or 14.5~15.0 tons per Chinese sources.
> …




But that‘s for the WS-10C, the updated version used by the J-20A. In contrast to the C-model, the J-10C uses the less powerful standard WS-10B, which is supposed to deliver a thrust of 132kn.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Windjammer said:


> *PAF’s acquisition of J10-C*
> 
> 
> 
> S.M. Hali
> 07TH JAN, 2022. 08:04 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> File photo
> 
> Pakistan’s interior minister, the loquacious Sheikh Rasheed Ahmed, re- cently informed the media that PAF is acquiring the Chinese J-10C “Fire- bird” fighter, which is slated to arrive in time to take part in the March 23 Pakistan Day parade. The confirmation should have come from the Ministry of Defence, but the Interior Minister chose to make the announcement, link- ing the fresh acquisition as a counter to India’s recently inducted Rafale.
> The declaration set the Indian media’s wheels into motion, spinning tales of speculation, disinformation and denigration of Pakistan with its usual xenophobia. Some elements of Pakistani media too indulged in half-baked theories of praise along with criticism, depending on which side of the fence they were sitting.
> Hence, it is imperative to provide a ratio- nale for Pakistan’s procurement of the Chinese fighters, put to rest the conjectures and present a comparison of the two weapons systems.
> 
> Quantitatively, Indian Air Force (IAF) has always enjoyed an edge over Pakistan Air Force (PAF) as the former is the fourth-larg- est air force in the world after the US, China, and Russia with around 1,70,000 personnel and 1,500 aircraft. However, the IAF currently has a ratio of 1.5 pilots per aircraft as against 2,5 pilots per aircraft for the PAF. India’s squadron numbers have also dwindled which is at its lowest point since the 1970s with just 28 fighter squadrons operational as against the authorised 42. Despite IAF’s clear advantage over PAF in terms of both quality and quantity espe- cially after the addition of Rafale jets, PAF hasshown time and time again that despite a small fleet of jets and limited defence budget, they are no way inferior to the Indian Air Force. PAF offsets its adversary’s numerical and qual- itative advantage through better weapon sys- tems maintenance, higher sortie generation and hard training.
> Pakistan’s decision to opt for the Chinese J-10C is not a knee-jerk reaction to the in- duction of Rafales in IAF. In fact, on 31 Jan- uary 2012, the Indian Ministry of Defence announced that Dassault Rafale had won the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMR- CA) competition to supply the Indian Air Force with 126 aircraft, along with an option for 63 additional aircraft.
> The first 18 aircraft were to be supplied by Dassault Aviation fully built and the remain- ing 108 aircraft were to be manufactured un- der license by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) with a transfer of technology from Das- sault. Later the deal fell through due to cost inflation and disagreements on warranty for aircraft produced by HAL. India wanted Das- sault to ensure the quality of aircraft produced by HAL, but Dassault refused to do so.
> The agreement was revived in 2015 with In- dia opting to acquire 36 Rafale multirole fight- er aircraft for a price estimated at €7.87 ($8.8) billion. The contract was tainted with accusa- tions of kickbacks, but that is another story.
> Pakistan’s quest for acquiring the J-10 also commenced in 2015. Its first choice would have been the upgrade of its F-16 fleet to Block 70/72, which met snags of financing. PAF’ purely indigenous efforts were initiated in July 2017, under _Project Azm_ to develop a fifth-generation heavy fighter aircraft pow- ered by twin engines, having stealth features. This ambitious project also comprises the development of medium-altitude, long-en- durance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) capable of operating at an altitude window of 10,000 to 30,000 feet for extended durations of time, typically 24 to 48 hours, new munitions, and multiple other projects.
> The caveat is that the next-generation air- craft under Project Azm is not going to make its flight by the end of this decade, thus the PAF had been considering the induction of a new system due to the geopolitical and geostra- tegic situations of the region to fill the gap.
> Another disinformation being spread by the Indian media is that the JF-17 Thunder Block iii is a failure and unable to match the Rafale, thus the decision to induct the J-10C. This couldn’t be further from the truth. JF-17 Thunder has been tried and tested as a light- weight fighter aircraft, which held its own during Operation Swift Retort on 27 February 2019, in which India got a bloody nose caus- ing the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi to lament that if only his air force had theRafale, it could have taught Pakistan a lesson.
> The capabilities of the JF-17iii are quite im- pressive, considering the price-tag and avail- ability. In terms of avionics and weapons load,AESA/IRST/Datalink/BVR/HMD+Off-bore- sight WVR missiles, and a reasonably decent EW suite all make for a good Gen 4+ fighter platform. Its range can be enhanced as in the Block 2’s in-flight refueling capability, while the reduction in weight as well on the Block 3, due to composite materials will also in-
> crease agility. PAF considers the JF-17 as its mainstay aircraft as it is going to replace the ageing F-7s. The JF-17 has become a mature platform with the Block III variant in the as- sembling lines.
> The J-10C, are expected to replace the PAF’s 87 delta-wing Mirage III ROSE fight- ers, which remain quite old despite integra- tion of modern avionics, satellite navigation and Italian Grifo radar.
> Now for a comparison of the Rafale and the J-10C: in size, Rafale is 15.27 metres in length and has a wingspan of 10.80 m. The J-10C, which is an upgraded version of the J-10, measures 15.49 metre in length and has a wingspan of 9.75 m. In terms of thrust, weight and range, the J-10C has an empty weight of 8,850 kg against Rafale’s empty weight of 9,850 kg. The Rafale is heavier by one tonne when empty but has a far greater thrust coming out of its twin engines.
> The Rafale has a 20 percent greater thrust for just 11 percent higher weight than the J-10C. This means for the same weight of fuel and weapons, Rafale is going to have a thrust- to-weight ratio far better than the J-10C which means better agility and higher energy which is the deciding factor within visual range (WVR) combat. Moreover, the Rafale has a range of 3,700 km as compared to the 1,850 km that the J-10C offers. One aspect where the Rafale trails behind the J-10C is speed; while the Rafale has a maximum speed of Mach 1 (1,912 km/h), the J-10C is blazing ahead at Mach 2.2 (2,400 km/h). The J10C also in- corporates thrust vectoring on its engine for enhanced manoeuvrability, which the Rafale lacks. The J10C also has the upper hand in speed, climb rate, and operational altitude over Rafale. Although Rafale is a twin-engine fighter, its engines’ thrust is similar to J10C. J10C’s 19.3 tons maximum take-off weight is much better than both F-16 and JF-17, however short of Rafale’s 24.5. The larger the take- off weight, the larger payload and fuel an air- craft can carry. Thus, J10C can perform close to Rafale, giving it an upper hand against the current aircraft in the PAF fleet.
> In terms of air-to-air missiles, the Rafale is equipped with the Meteor BVR missile, which has a range of 100 kilometers plus on the other hand, J10C is coming with the PL-15 air-to-air missiles, which have a range of 200 kilometers plus. Thus, the J-10C is considered one of the most capable single-engine fighters in the world and is comparable to Rafale in size, aerodynamic characteristics, aviation, and weapon systems.
> 
> _The writer is a former PAF Group Captain and an author_


PAF's "SWIFT RETORT" is based on jets in its own hands.....

IAF's "VIJAY DIWAS" is based on jets in its Masters' hands...

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Windjammer said:


> He also said that Pakistan or rather PAF acquired these to counter the Rafales.
> Which leaves out any other possibilities.


He did not use the word "acquired".



Pakistan Space Agency said:


> This is what the Interior Minister Shaikh Rasheed said in comments lasting 37 seconds:
> 
> _Meh aap ka shukriya ada karta hun aur sari qaum ko yakeen dilana chahta hun.
> 
> Batain log kar rahay hain.
> 
> 23 March ki meh nay un say request ki hai, kay 30 March kar dain, kyu kay bohot VIP guest ah rahay hain.
> 
> Aur, pehli dafa Pakistan meh JS-10 ki flying past ho rahi hai.
> 
> *Rafale kay muqablay meh Pakistan Air Force jo hai, flying past karnay lagi hai JS-10 Cheen kay jahaaz say.
> 
> Yeh Rafale kay torr meh hum nay, JS-10 jo hai, wo aik poora 25 ka squadron flying past karay ga.*
> 
> Aur, hum apnay diffa say bi ghafil nahi. Hamari azeem afwaaj hai._


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## waz

Shotgunner51 said:


> Bro seems like Deino has source, I don't have anything credible yet so let's wait for him.



No worries bro it is hard to find anything.


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## PakShaheen79

Shotgunner51 said:


> Yes I've seen his response towards this question raised by a reporter as well, his first response was "_I can't confirm anything on that account ..._", then followed by an apparently PR-type response (no specifics mentioned) that serves a general reassurance to the public aka PAF is always in control of the situation vis-a-vis IAF threat. Since that's not a prepared statement but responding to a report's question, I tend to put more weight on his first/instantaneous response.


You are mistaken here my friend. That response was after he said J-10 induction is routine matter and then a journalist cited Sheikh Rasheed's statement about 25 jets on that DG ISPR said " I can't confirm anything on that account" .... See, here 'that account' means the exact number of J-10s, not the platform itself.

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## Windjammer

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> He did not use the word "acquired".


And what term in Urdu would he have used. 
May be in your opinion, he meant Rafale ka muqabla ya toor will be done by J-10 acquired by Somalian Air force. Lol

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## Beast

Shotgunner51 said:


> I agree with you these are signs/intel that suggest the deal could be real, though I am still skeptical citing other signs/factors.


The deal is 99% thru. Stop being stubborn. You mean he is saying PLAAF J-10c do the fly pass in March for PAF and PLAAF J-10C do the dealing with Rafale on behalf of PAF?

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## Shotgunner51

Deino said:


> But that‘s for the WS-10C, the updated version used by the J-20A. In contrast to the C-model, the J-10C uses the less powerful standard WS-10B, which is supposed to deliver a thrust of 132kn.





waz said:


> No worries bro it is hard to find anything.


Yes bro always hard to find official sources in China, but here are thrust data compiled from Baidu-pedia (Baike) or news outlet like Sohu:

WS-10: 122 kN, the baseline variant, production discontinued
WS-10A: 132 kN, first seen at the 2008 China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition, production discontinued 2017, stocks still in service for J-11B
WS-10B: 142 kN (14.5 tons), formally announced on 2017 Feb 23 on China Aviation Post (中国航空报), in serial production since 2017 (order for AL31F stopped at the same year) till now, supplied to new jets including J-10B/C and J-16/16D
WS-10C: Same thrust as B, this variant is compatible only for J-20

涡扇10B发动机有多强？推力可达14.5吨，性能十分强悍_我国 (sohu.com)
歼11D或装备歼20同款航电系统！将成为世界最强三代半战机_涡扇 (sohu.com)
太行发动机_百度百科 (baidu.com)








ANALYSIS: Can China break the military aircraft engine bottleneck?


China's political and aerospace leadership is painfully aware that that its airpower ambitions are severely impeded by the lack of what it calls a "Chinese heart," or modern indigenous aircraft engines.




www.flightglobal.com

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Windjammer said:


> And what term in Urdu would he have used.
> May be in your opinion, he meant Rafale ka muqabla ya toor will be done by J-10 acquired by Somalian Air force. Lol









From the Interior Minister Shaikh Rasheed's exact words, where does it say Pakistan has acquired the J-10s?

_Rafale kay muqablay meh Pakistan Air Force jo hai, flying past karnay lagi hai JS-10 Cheen kay jahaaz say._
Translation: To counter the Rafale, Pakistan Air Force which is, will be conducting a flypast with the Chinese aircraft.​
_Yeh Rafale kay torr meh hum nay, JS-10 jo hai, wo aik poora 25 ka squadron flying past karay ga._
Translation: On par with this Rafale we have, the J-10 which is, they will perform a fly past of a full squadron of 25.​
From the above translations, how do Interior Minister's gibberish comments confirm Pakistan has purchased the J-10s?

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## Shotgunner51

PakShaheen79 said:


> You are mistaken here my friend. That response was after he said J-10 induction is routine matter and then a journalist cited Sheikh Rasheed's statement about 25 jets on that DG ISPR said " I can't confirm anything on that account" .... See, here 'that account' means the exact number of J-10s, not the platform itself.





Beast said:


> The deal is 99% thru. Stop being stubborn. You mean he is saying PLAAF J-10c do the fly pass in March for PAF and PLAAF J-10C do the dealing with Rafale on behalf of PAF?


Hey bros don't get me wrong I don't have a stance (support vs against) at all, only unconvinced on credibility of this rumour

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## Windjammer

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> View attachment 807174
> 
> 
> From the Interior Minister Shaikh Rasheed's exact words, where does it say Pakistan has acquired the J-10s?
> 
> _Rafale kay muqablay meh Pakistan Air Force jo hai, flying past karnay lagi hai JS-10 Cheen kay jahaaz say._
> Translation: To counter the Rafale, Pakistan Air Force which is, will be conducting a flypast of Chinese aircraft.​
> _Yeh Rafale kay torr meh hum nay, JS-10 jo hai, wo aik poora 25 ka squadron flying past karay ga._
> Translation: On par with this Rafale we have, the J-10 which is, they will perform a fly past of a full squadron of 25.​
> From the above translations, how do Interior Minister's gibberish comments confirm Pakistan has purchased the J-10s?


Well I'm guessing that when he said the 25 aircraft that will be conducting a flypast are going to be RC models. 
Stop beating about the Bush now dude.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Windjammer said:


> Well I'm guessing that when he said the 25 aircraft that will be conducting a flypast are going to be RC models.
> Stop beating about the Bush now dude.


Pani nazar aya hi ni, pohnchay pehla hi chhung lain?


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## kursed

Shotgunner51 said:


> I think it's too early to cheer for (or hate) the deal, this rumour is not confirmed thus far. It originated from Interior Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed saying "_J-10 will attend the Pakistan Day ceremony on 23 March 2022_", it does not exclude the possibility that he actually meant "J-10 (of PLAAF)" till this very moment. Judging by observations and some facts, in my opinion no such deal can possibly be made.


The birds are 100% confirmed due in. The intake has already resulted in making of an entirely new Sqn, which has absorbed Mirages of No. 15 Sqn. The infrastructure to handle the birds is ready.

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## Windjammer

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Pani nazar aya hi ni, pohnchay pehla hi chhung lain?


Eik Sardar Ji ghar say nikla tu samney keley ka chilka para dekha.....sardar ney asman ki taraf dekh kar bola.....Hye Rabba.....Aaj phir phislna parey ga. !!!!

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## messiach

In addition to local assembly of AESA, J10 comes with AL-31 ToT. We are looking towards a greater russian input in our NGFA program.


CriticalThought said:


> Madam, are you saying we are getting a derivative of Jian10? How much does it deviate from the original? Can you give us some specifics?

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## Beast

Shotgunner51 said:


> Hey bros don't get me wrong I don't have a stance (support vs against) at all, only unconvinced on credibility of this rumour


I know you try to be the devil advocate but I am 99% the deal will go thru. There are lots of capability that JF-17 cant replaced especially the bigger and more capable KJL-10 AESA which JF-17 one can't fit.

Surely AVIC Chengdu has carry out plenty of mock aerial combat between JF-17 and J-10 using PLAAF or PLANAF pilot with all kind of scenario from WVR to BVR or heavy ECM environment to AWACS/network support to conclude J-10 is much superior and therefore PLAAF decide not to induct JF-17.

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## CriticalThought

messiach said:


> In addition to local assembly of AESA, *J10 comes with AL-31 ToT. We are looking towards a greater russian input in our NGFA program.*



OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @SQ8 @Goenitz

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## Bleek

messiach said:


> In addition to local assembly of AESA, J10 comes with AL-31 ToT. We are looking towards a greater russian input in our NGFA program.


Not saying you're lying, but how reliable is this information? Because some members have been talking about the WS-10B engine being used.

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## TheDarkKnight

messiach said:


> In addition to local assembly of AESA, J10 comes with AL-31 ToT. We are looking towards a greater russian input in our NGFA program.


What about rd93ma? Is the jf17 fitted with the improved version? I am surprised j10 comes with Russian engine instead of Chinese!

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## GumNaam

TheDarkKnight said:


> What about rd93ma? Is the jf17 fitted with the improved version? I am surprised j10 comes with Russian engine instead of Chinese!


don't forget that Pakistan and Russia are also forging a new alliance. gotta keep the Russians happy as well. some decisions are political, not technical. If the WS10 and AL31 are at par in performance and reliability, then might as well use the AL31 to keep the Russians warned up to us, they aren't gonna be sanction prone thanks to China. indian influence on Russia is now dismal, nonexistent.

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## rAli

messiach said:


> In addition to local assembly of AESA, J10 comes with AL-31 ToT. We are looking towards a greater russian input in our NGFA program.


@messiach 
Ma'am. Aap kay muh mein ghee shakar!! Just to confirm, are you saying ToT for production of Al-31 in Pakistan from raw materials or higher depot level maintenance? If its the former that ought to be the best news in a long time. Thank you for sharing!

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## siegecrossbow

Beast said:


> I know you try to be the devil advocate but I am 99% the deal will go thru. There are lots of capability that JF-17 cant replaced especially the bigger and more capable KJL-10 AESA which JF-17 one can't fit.
> 
> Surely AVIC Chengdu has carry out plenty of mock aerial combat between JF-17 and J-10 using PLAAF or PLANAF pilot with all kind of scenario from WVR to BVR or heavy ECM environment to AWACS/network support to conclude J-10 is much superior and therefore PLAAF decide not to induct JF-17.



That’s not entirely true. I think that China in the early 2000s underestimated the pace of economic growth and military modernization that would ensue in the following two decades. Had the economy grown slower PLAAF would have remained a defensive Air Force, and JF-17 would have filled the niche as a bulk J-7 replacement.

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## Thorough Pro

The Russian economy is under a lot of stress due to the west's economic sanctions on one side and military pressure on the other. Right now Russia needs as much bis=iness as possible to support its military buildup against any possible American-led west's aggression, that is why Russians are getting closer to China and due to the past, many years of relationship normalization with Pakistan will sell anything for both financial as well as diplomatic support.




TheDarkKnight said:


> What about rd93ma? Is the jf17 fitted with the improved version? I am surprised j10 comes with Russian engine instead of Chinese!


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## Big_bud

messiach said:


> In addition to local assembly of AESA, J10 comes with AL-31 ToT. We are looking towards a greater russian input in our NGFA program.



Good if true, but that means no TVC in our jets yet!


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## Beast

siegecrossbow said:


> That’s not entirely true. I think that China in the early 2000s underestimated the pace of economic growth and military modernization that would ensue in the following two decades. Had the economy grown slower PLAAF would have remained a defensive Air Force, and JF-17 would have filled the niche as a bulk J-7 replacement.


No possible. PLAAF do not want complicate logistics. Therefore they have to choose best out of 2. 
J-10 brainchild of PLAAF massive effort fitted with many advance technology during that time, like full digital FBW, composite, high thrust turbofan, glass cockpit.

JF-17 ,may excel in ground attack but its not gonna fill the role of J-7 as interceptor. Even without Su-27 flanker in PLAAF, PLAAF that time already equipped with JH-7A. Ground attack role are secondary for J-10.


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## luciferdd

siegecrossbow said:


> That’s not entirely true. I think that China in the early 2000s underestimated the pace of economic growth and military modernization that would ensue in the following two decades. Had the economy grown slower PLAAF would have remained a defensive Air Force, and JF-17 would have filled the niche as a bulk J-7 replacement.


PLAAF hate any jet with low MAX-SPEED,they will not accept JF-17 unless they have no chioce.


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## MastanKhan

messiach said:


> In addition to local assembly of AESA, J10 comes with AL-31 ToT. We are looking towards a greater russian input in our NGFA program.




Hi,

Oh well---another surprise---.

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## untitled

messiach said:


> J10 comes with AL-31 ToT


So we are not getting WS-10 powered J-10s?


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## Aesterix

messiach said:


> In addition to local assembly of AESA, J10 comes with AL-31 ToT. We are looking towards a greater russian input in our NGFA program.


What?
How did India allow that?
Russia won't do anything that displeases India?

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## sneakerspark

Aesterix said:


> What?
> How did India allow that?
> Russia won't do anything that displeases India?


We are getting these aircrafts from china, not Russia.


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## Iron Shrappenel

messiach said:


> In addition to local assembly of AESA, J10 comes with AL-31 ToT. We are looking towards a greater russian input in our NGFA program.


I don't want to challenge your sources but why would China let us go ahead with the Al-31 tot and not push it's WS-10 variants with even greater co-operation ? Does the Al-31 have super cruise abilities ?


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## Trango Towers

@messiach 

Isn't the j10c fitted with a WS-10B Taihang turbofan engine ?

Why would we get AL31 TOT? 

With respect you make a statement and then dissappear without providing any proof.

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## Scorpiooo

messiach said:


> In addition to local assembly of AESA, J10 comes with AL-31 ToT. We are looking towards a greater russian input in our NGFA program.


This is a big news, PAF trust on Chinese engine is not yet achieved.. 

Secondly if AL31 is coming with ToT them RD93 will be part of package as well.

Third point then there higher chances that AZM NGFA will have Russian engine possibly AL 41

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## Trango Towers

Scorpiooo said:


> This is a big news, PAF trust on Chinese engine is not yet achieved..
> 
> Secondly if AL31 is coming with ToT them RD93 will be part of package as well.
> 
> Third point then there higher chances that AZM NGFA will have Russian engine possibly AL 41


Aside from @messiach word is there any confirmation that the engine is an AL31? It seems no one dares ask this question?

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## abdulbarijan

Trango Towers said:


> Aside from @messiach word is there any confirmation that the engine is an AL31? It seems no one dares ask this question?


You won't have the official confirmation until the fighters arrive in the PAF colors. But if the news turns out to be true, then indeed it is a big development.

While some members might say that the Pakistani trust in the Chinese engine may still not be there hence the AL-31, another way to look at it is well, the airforce is simply much more pleased with the Russian engines, which also puts some questions on the whole narrative of the RD-93 being under powered etc. Who knows

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## Trango Towers

abdulbarijan said:


> You won't have the official confirmation until the fighters arrive in the PAF colors. But if the news turns out to be true, then indeed it is a big development.
> 
> While some members might say that the Pakistani trust in the Chinese engine may still not be there hence the AL-31, another way to look at it is well, the airforce is simply much more pleased with the Russian engines, which also puts some questions on the whole narrative of the RD-93 being under powered etc. Who knows


So everything is on IF IF IF and rumours...
I remember someone saying f16 V70 were a guarantee and when I questioned it I was abused rotten here.

I think people make big claims and then go silent..this is sure sign its not true as there is no justification to the rumour. The chinese use their own engines why would we select a Russian engine? Doesn't make sense

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## Scorpiooo

Trango Towers said:


> Aside from @messiach word is there any confirmation that the engine is an AL31? It seems no one dares ask this question?


News just came from reliable resource, we will have others inputs soon, 

We know PAF is happy with Russia n engine for JFTs, they suot our climate.

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## Trango Towers

Scorpiooo said:


> News just came from reliable resource, we will have others inputs soon,
> 
> We know PAF is happy with Russia n engine for JFTs, they suot our climate.


What reliable source? A posters word? A gug called khafee was worshipped here as the word and he promised you f16 v70 ....his word was gospel. Where is he? 

This news is bs until there is evidence

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## Bleek

Trango Towers said:


> So everything is on IF IF IF and rumours...
> I remember someone saying f16 V70 were a guarantee and when I questioned it I was abused rotten here.
> 
> I think people make big claims and then go silent..this is sure sign its not true as there is no justification to the rumour. The chinese use their own engines why would we select a Russian engine? Doesn't make sense


Exactly lol, people are celebrating on very little information, that too which is unreliable and unverifiable as of now.

Jumping to conclusions over hearsay... 

Regarding specs and performance though, how do the AL-31 and WS-10B compare?

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## Trango Towers

Bleek said:


> Exactly lol, people are celebrating on very little information, that too which is unreliable and unverifiable as of now.
> 
> Jumping to conclusions over hearsay...
> 
> Regarding specs and performance though, how do the AL-31 and WS-10B compare?


No point comparing...the Chinese use WS-10B

A woman come in makes a wild claim and disappears and numb nuts discuss it as fact for 75 pages

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## Scorpiooo

As per news break by @messiach that PAF J10 will have Al31 engine with ToT

This is a big news, means PAF trust on Chinese engine is not yet achieved..

Secondly if AL31 is coming with ToT them RD93 will be also part of package as well.

Third point then there is higher chances that AZM or NGFA 5th gen will have Russian engine possibly AL 41





PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion


But that‘s for the WS-10C, the updated version used by the J-20A. In contrast to the C-model, the J-10C uses the less powerful standard WS-10B, which is supposed to deliver a thrust of 132kn. No worries bro it is hard to find anything. Yes bro always hard to find official sources in China...



defence.pk

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## Bleek

Scorpiooo said:


> News just came from reliable resource, we will have others inputs soon,
> 
> We know PAF is happy with Russia n engine for JFTs, they suot our climate.


Are you sure? Pretty sure there were complaints over black smoke trail and also it being underpowered IIRC.


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## Trango Towers

Bleek said:


> Are you sure? Pretty sure there were complaints over black smoke trail and also it being underpowered IIRC.


Bhai black smoke is not a big issue...I used to design combustion chamber are drae. It's a function of fuel and vortex generation to extend lean burn time. No big deal. Some is just unburnt fuel. It reduces efficency but its nit a deal breaker and now modern combat is BVR. So smoke isn't going to play a part unclese you in WWR combat

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## Bleek

Trango Towers said:


> No point comparing...the Chinese use WS-10B
> 
> A woman come in makes a wild claim and disappears and numb nuts discuss it as fact for 75 pages


It makes sense for the Chinese, since it's domestic and they can boost self-reliance and sort any issues in house.

For us it could be better to use the Russian engine because we use Russian engines with the JF17 already. But we need to consider difference in performance/specs.


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## Trango Towers

Bleek said:


> It makes sense for the Chinese, since it's domestic and they can boost self-reliance and sort any issues in house.
> 
> For us it could be better to use the Russian engine because we use Russian engines with the JF17 already. But we need to consider difference in performance/specs.


So you will buy a Chinese plane with a Russian engine even though the Chinese engine works just fine and and yiu partner in this sale is the Chinese.

Rumour rumour rumours....unbelievable

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## abdulbarijan

Trango Towers said:


> So everything is on IF IF IF and rumours...
> I remember someone saying f16 V70 were a guarantee and when I questioned it I was abused rotten here.
> 
> I think people make big claims and then go silent..this is sure sign its not true as there is no justification to the rumour. The chinese use their own engines why would we select a Russian engine? Doesn't make sense


*You are correct, everything is and should be treated as "if if if and rumors" until you see the jets in PAF colors in PAF bases. *

Back in the day PAF seriously wanted the french avionics for the JFT block 2 upgrade, and was confirmed by official channels as well. That didn't go through. We have a well documented hard-on for the F-16's and officially we wanted numbers in the 100's and that didn't go through. The J-10's were being talked about until the 2010's and no official confirmation until recently, and in my personal opinion you still need to see them in our colors before celebrating.

This is just the nature of this whole industry, you have business and politics all intertwined and the situation is extremely dynamic. Some members hear things that are being talked of in that moment and time and then things change. That is just how it is. Nothing we can do about it, unfortunately.

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## Bleek

Trango Towers said:


> So you will buy a Chinese plane with a Russian engine even though the Chinese engine works just fine and and yiu partner in this sale is the Chinese.
> 
> Rumour rumour rumours....unbelievable


With ToT I'd say it's probably very worth it, especially if there's no difference in performance cause it pushes our own knowledge base, could be used in Azm.

And yes, so far all rumours, we are speaking hypothetically right now. I'm shocked everyone read one message and just ran with it...


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## Thorough Pro

Not so much since Russia already cooperated in setting up RD93 rebuild factory in Pakistan, it make perfect sense to go with the Russian engine for J10 also, I can also foresee another Russian engine for Pakistan's indigenous 5th gen project adding and enhancing more to that rebuild factory to maybe start some kind of engine parts manufacturing and become expert in maintaining/rebuilding Russian engines, just like we did with Mirage rebuild the factory with future prospects of starting complete engine manufacturing with Russian technical assistance.






MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Oh well---another surprise---.

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## SQ8

messiach said:


> In addition to local assembly of AESA, J10 comes with AL-31 ToT. We are looking towards a greater russian input in our NGFA program.






CriticalThought said:


> OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @SQ8 @Goenitz


Would be odd unless the idea is to add additional numbers down the line or use an uprated version of the AL-31( Post series 3). 
However, the Russians have ignored Indians completely on the RD-93 and are likely to provide a more mature engine setup from day 1. 
134Kn it is then.

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## serenity

Bleek said:


> It makes sense for the Chinese, since it's domestic and they can boost self-reliance and sort any issues in house.
> 
> For us it could be better to use the Russian engine because we use Russian engines with the JF17 already. But we need to consider difference in performance/specs.





Trango Towers said:


> So you will buy a Chinese plane with a Russian engine even though the Chinese engine works just fine and and yiu partner in this sale is the Chinese.
> 
> Rumour rumour rumours....unbelievable



It's possible PAF ordered J-10CE with AL-31 as its condition for purchase due to possibly having more faith in Russian engine whether that is accurate and well reasoned or not. However this is but a rumor and J-10C models did use AL-31 so they can use those engines however the AL-31 will need to be ordered. Maybe China or Pakistan would need to place an order of 50 AL-31 engines from Russia if this is the case or maybe China can provide Pakistan with some left over AL-31 surplus if there are any which I doubt.

WS-10B has more thrust and is supposed to be more reliable than the old AL-31. CAC's factory building J-10C has been set up for WS-10B integration for many years already so I don't know how easy it would be for them to provide x number for PAF using older frame that is for AL-31. Maybe slightly used J-10C are the ones sold to PAF if that is the case.

Anyway this is rumor on top of rumor on top of some opinion, guesses, and more rumors. I think ToT on AL-31 however is a ridiculous rumor from messiach. This would require Russia agreeing to it which would also piss India off a lot. It would also be kind of pointless. Why would Pakistan want ToT on AL-31? It is nowhere near set up to build the engine under license or reverse engineer it. And if the purpose of ToT is simply for learning just so Pakistan can begin training some people in future roles for engine design, it is still hard to believe. It is more likely for China to give ToT and learning support for WS-10 and general high bypass turbofan technology including theory, design, and manufacturing. That would be delivered in a greater depth than any AL-31 ToT and it would also be more useful for Pakistan which would also be in China's interest if it can spare the time and energy for such a thing which I feel is highly unlikely.


Thorough Pro said:


> Not so much since Russia already cooperated in setting up RD93 rebuild factory in Pakistan, it make perfect sense to go with the Russian engine for J10 also, I can also foresee another Russian engine for Pakistan's indigenous 5th gen project adding and enhancing more to that rebuild factory to maybe start some kind of engine parts manufacturing and become expert in maintaining/rebuilding Russian engines, just like we did with Mirage rebuild the factory with future prospects of starting complete engine manufacturing with Russian technical assistance.



But AL-31 and RD-93 are very, very different engines. Just because both are Russian doesn't mean some guessed and hinted at benefits or ease of whatever.

Pakistan only has some minor overhaul procedure and equipment for RD-93. It does not have ToT on RD-93 and it also doesn't build a single part of it. ToT for AL-31 would be for the purpose of at least being able to learn and apply that technology and also possibly for more which would include building it by Pakistan's own self or at least being able to make some parts to service and replace certain parts with.

No country has ever offered and given ToT on 4th generation engine yet. France's SAFRAN almost cooperated with India on Kaveri ressurection project but now they want to only directly sell India M88 engine with unknown level of ToT.

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## Trango Towers

serenity said:


> It's possible PAF ordered J-10CE with AL-31 as its condition for purchase due to possibly having more faith in Russian engine whether that is accurate and well reasoned or not. However this is but a rumor and J-10C models did use AL-31 so they can use those engines however the AL-31 will need to be ordered. Maybe China or Pakistan would need to place an order of 50 AL-31 engines from Russia if this is the case or maybe China can provide Pakistan with some left over AL-31 surplus if there are any which I doubt.
> 
> WS-10B has more thrust and is supposed to be more reliable than the old AL-31. CAC's factory building J-10C has been set up for WS-10B integration for many years already so I don't know how easy it would be for them to provide x number for PAF using older frame that is for AL-31. Maybe slightly used J-10C are the ones sold to PAF if that is the case.
> 
> Anyway this is rumor on top of rumor on top of some opinion, guesses, and more rumors. I think ToT on AL-31 however is a ridiculous rumor from messiach. This would require Russia agreeing to it which would also piss India off a lot. It would also be kind of pointless. Why would Pakistan want ToT on AL-31? It is nowhere near set up to build the engine under license or reverse engineer it. And if the purpose of ToT is simply for learning just so Pakistan can begin training some people in future roles for engine design, it is still hard to believe. It is more likely for China to give ToT and learning support for WS-10 and general high bypass turbofan technology including theory, design, and manufacturing. That would be delivered in a greater depth than any AL-31 ToT and it would also be more useful for Pakistan which would also be in China's interest if it can spare the time and energy for such a thing which I feel is highly unlikely.


As I said this lady has stared the rumours and gone underground...there are a lot of people who do this. Al31 just doesn't make sense

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## StraightEdge

Rafi said:


> The Raphael two engines have less power than single engine J10C.



That's news to me, maybe I haven't read about J10c properly. Quick google search tells me that J10c produces 123/135 KN of thrust as compared to 150 KN in Rafale. Since J10c specifications are opaque and different places post different values, hard to find a reliable figure.
j-10 - wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And if they use Russian engine instead of Chinese, then it will be even lesser.


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## Mav3rick

The Terminator said:


> We can't buy a thing unless we get them on loan installments. So thanks to China who is now virtually funding our military's acquisition programs through loans. We aren't an industrialized country so our imports would grow regardless of which categories you analyze. Loans+more interest = deadly taxes and inflation resulting into more poverty and lesser buying power for general public.



China is NO US! Whatever China gives, it takes back with interest (compound); there is a reason it is being equated to the current era's East India Company. What they did to Sri Lanka with the Port is just a prime example. 

Why we are continuously digging this debt trap (or rather debt grave) is beyond me. Our Nuclear Weapons are sufficient deterrence against any loss of Land to India (or any other country). We simply cannot match India's purchasing power (until our economy is just as strong) and the sooner we recognize it the better.

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## serenity

StraightEdge said:


> That's news to me, maybe I haven't read about J10c properly. Quick google search tells me that J10c produces 123/135 KN of thrust as compared to 150 KN in Rafale. Since J10c specifications are opaque and different places post different values, hard to find a reliable figure.
> j-10 - wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> And if they use Russian engine instead of Chinese, then it will be even lesser.



He is wrong. Two M88 produce more afterburner thrust than one WS-10B whether the WS-10B produces 135KN or 145KN. AL-31FN series produce even less.

For maximum military thrust, which is without afterburner, we do not know but it's fairly likely that two M88 has higher military thrust than WS-10B's military thrust.

But M88 is over half the weight of WS-10B most likely so two M88's penalty is at least in slightly more weight but compensated with more thrust. The Rafale is also slightly larger than J-10 overall.

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## Deino

messiach said:


> In addition to local assembly of AESA, J10 comes with AL-31 ToT. We are looking towards a greater russian input in our NGFA program.




Sorry, but this makes no sense and I would love to see some prove for this even if IO'm sure you won't provide any. We haven't seen any J-10C since late 2019 rolling of the production line at CAC with AL-31FN engines and so, the PAF is either getting earlier batches of PLAAf birds, or they are still not in production.

Even more this "we will get more ToT is IMO fake ... but let's wait and see. By all i know, this won't happen.


Big_bud said:


> Good if true, but that means no TVC in our jets yet!



Why again and as it seems you didn't read ANY of those replies from several members: TVC was never on the agenda for these J-10Cs since NO operational J-10C uses TVC.

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## MH.Yang

luciferdd said:


> PLAAF hate any jet with low MAX-SPEED,they will not accept JF-17 unless they have no chioce.


Yes, once all PLAAF planes were as long as brooms. 





But the speed of J10A can reach 2M, the J10C shortened the fuselage, resulting in a speed drop to 1.8M, and significantly increased mobility at subsonic speeds and high angles of attack. This indicates that the requirements of PLAAF have changed.

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## Riz

Trango Towers said:


> What reliable source? A posters word? A gug called khafee was worshipped here as the word and he promised you f16 v70 ....his word was gospel. Where is he?
> 
> This news is bs until there is evidence


Many done deals has been canceled in the past , this is a military forum here many have relatives friends working in different departments of military, so obviously many had access to these secret deals which get leaked to us , F-16V deal was one of them

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## Trango Towers

Riz said:


> Many done deals has been canceled in the past , this is a military forum here many have relatives friends working in different departments of military, so obviously many had access to these secret deals which get leaked to us , F-16V deal was one of them


There was no f16 v70 deal. Not 1 spread of evidence to support your claim.
I can claim my uncle is bajwa.... this is the internet...you can be Ik or modi. Doesn't mean what you say is correct.

Either say what the reliable source is or just let it be....this supporting of rumours is bs

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## Riz

Trango Towers said:


> There was no f16 v70 deal. Not 1 spread of evidence to support your claim.
> I can claim my uncle is bajwa.... this is the internet...you can be Ik or modi. Doesn't mean what you say is correct.
> 
> Either say what the reliable source is or just let it be....this supporting of rumours is bs


Acha bhai ghusa to na karo

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## Trango Towers

Riz said:


> Acha bhai ghusa to na karo


I an not at angry my brother. But facts are facts. No proof not point talking

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## The Terminator

tphuang said:


> From what I heard, PAF's version may turn out slightly limited due to budgetary issues (not because PLAAF is limiting export of any technology on there).


Pakistan military historically has always procured the best possible solution available at the time from China or more often even further refined that platform to better suite their needs. How do you think that PAF would make compromises while acquiring a whole new platform from China, when they would have to face the best of east (S 400 + SU 30MKI) and west (Rafale) platforms at disposal to their prime adversary. I highly doubt that PAF would make those cheap compromises (downgrades) to J-10 acquisition, as they already have smaller but equally fierce brother of J-10, the JF-17 thunder block 3 which is capable of holding on its own against the contemporary threats.

So you are suggesting that PAF going to commit Billions of precious $$$ acquiring an entirely new platform, establishing it's logistics, training etc. just to get a downgraded J-10 in order to cut corners of merely a few million bucks! I can't believe this. This scenario could only happen if China forcefully thrusted J-10 deal upon Pakistan just in order to unlock newly acquired cutting edge tech for their thunder upgrades, so in that case PAF would buy a couple of dozen of J-10 husks and place them in in reserves or secondary roles, which itself (this scenario) is highly unlikely.

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## luciferdd

Scorpiooo said:


> As per news break by @messiach that PAF J10 will have Al31 engine with ToT
> 
> This is a big news, means PAF trust on Chinese engine is not yet achieved..
> 
> Secondly if AL31 is coming with ToT them RD93 will be also part of package as well.
> 
> Third point then there is higher chances that AZM or NGFA 5th gen will have Russian engine possibly AL 41
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion
> 
> 
> But that‘s for the WS-10C, the updated version used by the J-20A. In contrast to the C-model, the J-10C uses the less powerful standard WS-10B, which is supposed to deliver a thrust of 132kn. No worries bro it is hard to find anything. Yes bro always hard to find official sources in China...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


Obviously it's a fake news,PAF only need 36~40 high thrust engines in a short term and these engines can't be somethings with TOT(the cost will be real high).

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## Aesterix

Trango Towers said:


> @messiach
> 
> Isn't the j10c fitted with a WS-10B Taihang turbofan engine ?
> 
> Why would we get AL31 TOT?
> 
> With respect you make a statement and then dissappear without providing any proof.


Thats what I was thinking. PAF initial term was that only when China can fit the jet with a reliable Chinese engine, only then PAF will buy it.
The clause was placed by one of the best defence visionaries Pakistan ever had , General Musharraf.


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## araz

messiach said:


> In addition to local assembly of AESA, J10 comes with AL-31 ToT. We are looking towards a greater russian input in our NGFA program.


Madam.
Aap ne to billion ki dum main patakha baand ke chor diya hai. This is huge news.


Big_bud said:


> Good if true, but that means no TVC in our jets yet!


I dont think we will be wanting that at all. A lot of weight for very little gain against HOBS. I could be wrong but this is my opinion.
A

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## m52k85

SQ8 said:


> @CriticalThought
> What you posted in the other thread kept me thinking of what if I am wrong based on whatever limited information + knowledge I have.
> 
> So lets put it through the simulation: @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD in case you are interested
> 
> A flight of 4 J-10Cs with PL-15s and a flight of 4 Rafale F3Rs with Meteors.
> In total the J-10Cs carry 16 PL-15s and 8 PL-10s along with KG-300 ECM pods while the Rafale's 16 Meteors and 8 MICA EMs along with 8 MICA IRs as well(SPECTRA BUILT IN)
> Max Range of PL-15 is simulated at 92nm while the Meteor is at 75nm.
> 
> Both located at 36000ft, facing each other and at 200nm out - same simulated skill level.
> They both have access to their respective DLs and the side overall is capable of exploiting other sensors but no AEW in place.
> This is a straight charge in with no collective offset tactics or approaches - pretty much medieval knights riding to meet each other with sensor/weapons performance what we are looking to see.
> 
> Now I cannot change what the programmers of this simulation consider their values for sensor and weapons parameters and I do feel they have assigned the radar range to the J-10C lower than what it is(closer to the JF-17 Block 3) but that is offset to an extent by the range of the PL-15.
> Additionally, they also limited the J-10C to only being able to guide 1 PL-15 at a time when that is not the case in reality. It does however somewhat simulate the block-3 to an extent as well so the initial results can be taken analogous to that engagement too barring the block-3s slightly smaller RCS.
> To make this engagement fair I limit the Rafale's to launch 1 weapon at each target as well.
> 
> Finally, I AM HANDS OFF - no interference.
> 
> Quick snapshot shows the detection/engagement range of the J-10(White circle at 75nm) and the weapons range in red.
> 
> View attachment 805184
> 
> 
> The Rafale has a detection range of 140nm - so nearly twice that of the J-10C shown but then its stick is shorter.
> 
> View attachment 805187
> 
> 
> Both flights proceed to engage keeping the same altitude and fairly same kinematics as well with the J-10C approaching the max weapons range
> 
> View attachment 805190
> 
> 
> At exactly 74nm the J-10Cs launch their PL-15s at the Rafales who are in weapons range for the Meteor but dont launch yet.
> 
> View attachment 805193
> 
> 
> Finally at 70NMs the Meteors are also launch and the Rafale's start to notch - the J-10Cs are still not notching!
> View attachment 805194
> 
> View attachment 805195
> 
> 
> The Meteors don't loft as much as the PL-15s but the Meteors are FASTER due to their Ramjet propulsion and get to their target FASTER!
> They go active and the J-10s are finally defending.
> 
> View attachment 805196
> 
> 
> All 4 J-10Cs are gone while the PL-15s are still in the air!
> View attachment 805197
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHEN the PL-15s do arrive they hit 2 Rafale's while the others are able to dodge and get away - thus ended attempt 1 at the simulation.
> Since it works as if a dice is rolled in terms of calculating everything from "pilot" responses to weapon impacts I ran it 3 more times.
> 
> #2 - J-10Cs all lost, 1 Rafale remains
> 
> #3 - J-10Cs 1 survives the first volley while 2 Rafale's survive. ONCE this J-10C survives and both flow Hot again, it launches at another Rafale to bring it down and survives a Meteor. It launches again at the second Rafale and brings it down as well.
> 
> #4. No J-10Cs survive and 1 Rafale Survives.
> 
> However, as I mentioned the issue lies with the simulated radar range for the J-10C and this result may reflect more the Block-3 rather than the J-10CPs.
> so perhaps suited to the other thread but the JF-17 Block-3 isnt some antidote for the Rafale and probably more akin to a numbers equalizer to outstick the IAF.
> 
> But, I wasnt done so I manipulated the database and increased the range of the J-10Cs radar to 100nm and allowing them (and the Rafale's) to guide 2 missiles at a time.
> Doing that changed the whole game entirely -
> 
> Now the J-10Cs werent only launching right at the edge of the PL-15s range but also able to notch more comfortably. The PL-15s would arrive and since they were 2 per target bring down all Rafale's
> while the meteors where still 35nm away from the J-10Cs!
> Even with their high speed at the weapon endgame the Meteors would at best bring down 2 J-10s in repeat after repeat of this scenario.
> 
> View attachment 805200
> 
> 
> 
> So - having done so I decided to put up all other assets of the PAF against the Rafale.
> 
> JF-17 Block-2 - 2 out of 4 times is unable to engage even and brought down by the Rafale - the other two tries brings down 1-2 Rafales
> 
> F-16AM with AIDEWS - Only in 1 engagement do they actually manage to evade the meteor and bring down 3 Rafales but still lose 3-4. Other cases it is 2-4 or 0-4 as well.
> 
> So, clearly the other assets of the PAF barring the JF-17 Block-3 and J-10C arent going to have it easy against the Rafale - sure, the chance of this simple straight in engagement are also nearly nil but it goes to simulate what a game changer the Rafale is for the IAF.
> 
> Why I state that is because I ran the simulation for other scenarios as well:
> 
> J-10C(100nm Radar) with /PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 4 times and in all it was 0-4 losses
> J-10C with /PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 Win 4 out of 4 times , MKI managed to bring down 1 J10C in 2 rounds.
> J-10C with /PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 4 out of 4 times , UPG managed to bring down 1 J10C in 1 round.
> J-10C vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Win 4 out of 4 times - No chance for Tejas they all went down for no loss to J-10C
> 
> JF-17 Block-3(_simulated by J-10C with 75nm Radar_) W/PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: 3 out of 4 times could not fire a single MICA and all went down
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - Win 3 out of 4 times-, MKI Won only 1 round after losing 2 of theirs.
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 2 win, 1 draw(shoot each other down) and 1 lost.
> JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - 4 times they all went down for no loss to Block-3
> 
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Evenly matched on rounds- When they win it is 4-3, when they lose it is 2-4.
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 1-2 JF-17 remaining
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 4 times it is an EVEN result with either 1 Mig-29 or JF-17 surviving - very surprising considering the MKI is a superior aircraft in paper specs.
> JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - EVEN result with 2 of either aircraft remaining after winning.
> 
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 3 out of 4.
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 3-4 F-16 remaining .
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 3 out of 4 with 2-3 F-16s remaining in all wins.
> F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Won all 4 times - but nearly lost in one round with 1 F-16 remaining.
> 
> So, just my thoughts are that at this point the PAF does have the superior stick against most of IAF's fleet except the Rafale.
> Stating again that this is a VERY SIMPLE scenario.
> 
> Unfortunately we do not have the Astra to simulate so cannot see what that will do to change the engagements.


Hi,
Im sure this takes a lot of time, but I for one would love to see Pathankot 2.0. We all know how the '65 raid went, but what would PAF need to achieve the same in 2023?

Im guessing, a flight of Jfs with ARMs, a couple of flights with Takbirs, another with non-standoff PGMs once over target. And ofcourse a hell lot of F-16s in full AA-loadout and every Blk-III available at that point with dual-racked Pl-15s. Not to mention Blinders, Saabs, tankers doing their thing. But will PAF have to open with Ra'ad carrying Mirages? So many variables, only a simulation can give us some appreciation.

P.S. Obviously in a new thread if you get around to do it.


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## araz

abdulbarijan said:


> You won't have the official confirmation until the fighters arrive in the PAF colors. But if the news turns out to be true, then indeed it is a big development.
> 
> While some members might say that the Pakistani trust in the Chinese engine may still not be there hence the AL-31, another way to look at it is well, the airforce is simply much more pleased with the Russian engines, which also puts some questions on the whole narrative of the RD-93 being under powered etc. Who knows


ADDING TO YOUR POST Also how much pressure is released on the WS10 Production by PAF choosing AL31. The Chinese local demand for WS10 remains high and perhaps this would have delayed deliveries. Just a thought!🤔🤔
A

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## m52k85

Ppl who will have followed messiach's contribution pre-return vs post her return will be able to put a good score on the authenticity of this revelation.

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## Bleek

m52k85 said:


> Hi,
> Im sure this takes a lot of time, but I for one would love to see Pathankot 2.0. We all know how the '65 raid went, but what would PAF need to achieve the same in 2023?
> 
> Im guessing, a flight of Jfs with ARMs, a couple of flights with Takbirs, another with non-standoff PGMs once over target. And ofcourse a hell lot of F-16s in full AA-loadout and every Blk-III available at that point with dual-racked Pl-15s. Not to mention Blinders, Saabs, tankers doing their thing. But will PAF have to open with Ra'ad carrying Mirages? So many variables, only a simulation can give us some appreciation.
> 
> P.S. Obviously in a new thread if you get around to do it.


I just searched up the Pathankot aerial warfare in 1965, didn't know much about it, and damn, the Indians got absolutely destroyed 😂 

I took a look at the neutral claims on Wikipedia and it seems the Indians are lying about their casualties again, Pakistan's claimed casualties actually add up with the neutral claims. 

PAF really does dominate in the skies

Has information ever been released about our training exercises with the Chinese? I wonder how well the pilots fly against each other


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## araz

Trango Towers said:


> I an not at angry my brother. But facts are facts. No proof not point talking


My brother.
Let us wait and see how this transpires. If the rumours are to be believed the J10s should be landing soon . Let us wait and see. All members have taken the news on as a rumour and discussed it as such. What the truth is will be revealed in due course.
In the early days of the JFT an Ex AF friend of mine told me the avionics on the JFT were Italian. As it turned out the JFT turned out with Chinese avionics. People often get snippets which may have been true at the time but may have changed due to changing scenarios/products/conditions( incidentally I never to this date have mentioned this) We can listen but reserve judgement on them. On an internet forum people express opinions,some wrong, some right. Take an opinion for what it is --------an opinion. 
Kind regards
A

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## Dreamer.

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> View attachment 807174
> 
> 
> From the Interior Minister Shaikh Rasheed's exact words, where does it say Pakistan has acquired the J-10s?
> 
> _Rafale kay muqablay meh Pakistan Air Force jo hai, flying past karnay lagi hai JS-10 Cheen kay jahaaz say._
> Translation: To counter the Rafale, Pakistan Air Force which is, will be conducting a flypast with the Chinese aircraft.​
> _Yeh Rafale kay torr meh hum nay, JS-10 jo hai, wo aik poora 25 ka squadron flying past karay ga._
> Translation: On par with this Rafale we have, the J-10 which is, they will perform a fly past of a full squadron of 25.​
> From the above translations, how do Interior Minister's gibberish comments confirm Pakistan has purchased the J-10s?


Well Bro if you want to nit pick  , then he did say that PAF will do the flypast with JS-10 chinese aircraft . So do you think PAF will be doing flypast with PLAAF aircraft? Is that what you think he meant? 

So PAF will get pilots trained to fly 'JS-10' just to do a fly past in a parade? And PLAAF will gladly loan their aircraft for someone else to do a flypast with?


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## Shotgunner51

MH.Yang said:


> Yes, once all PLAAF planes were as long as brooms.
> 
> But the speed of J10A can reach 2M, the J10C shortened the fuselage, resulting in a speed drop to 1.8M, and significantly increased mobility at subsonic speeds and high angles of attack. This indicates that the requirements of PLAAF have changed.


Long as brooms, very accurate description! Like I've said in post #1297, J-10A was born a high-speed AA jet while later J-10C becomes more "fine tuned" for multi-role. They might have done aerodynamic modifications to trade top speed for maneuverability (at low-speed low-altitude) as well as payload/MTOW.

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## araz

tphuang said:


> Chinese side have said since last year that not only is there an order, but that PAF requested for it to be delivered very urgently. Again, my point about delivery timeframe is a great factor for J-10C. That's the difference between getting a mature aircraft vs getting one that has still a lot of work to do. PAF is essentially going from signing the contract to taking delivery of 25 in a year.
> 
> For most aircraft producers out there, you need a much greater lead-time. So, I would not be surprised if PLAAF deferred some of its own orders so that PAF can get them first.
> 
> Depending on PAF's experience with J-10 over time, they may request for another order in the future with greater lead time and more PAF specific requirements. Certain design decision made for J-10 is based on PLAAF requirements in the 80s. So, it's been mostly an air superiority aircraft over its life time. In its current role with PLAAF, it really doesn't have the role of multi-role aircraft either. So maybe PAF will find over time that it wants certain changes with J-10C like a two seat version that's better suited for multi-role purposes. Regardless of how much you do with JF-17, it has certain size limitations that cannot be overcome. So if PAF does enjoy its first batch of J-10Cs, I think the next order will probably have some changes that make use of its greater size and thrust over JF-17 and F-16s.


Hey TP.
Welcome on the board. I remember you from Sonodefence forum. Great to have you here.
A

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## Enigma SIG

Mav3rick said:


> China is NO US! Whatever China gives, it takes back with interest (compound); there is a reason it is being equated to the current era's East India Company. What they did to Sri Lanka with the Port is just a prime example.


IMF is interest free? WB is interest free? ADB is interest free? Just wait till you default on those obligations.

Where do Pakistani's get their education I swear. Gotta raze those schools to the ground.

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## Deino

Scorpiooo said:


> As per news break by @messiach that PAF J10 will have Al31 engine with ToT
> 
> This is a big news, means PAF trust on Chinese engine is not yet achieved..
> 
> Secondly if AL31 is coming with ToT them RD93 will be also part of package as well.
> 
> Third point then there is higher chances that AZM or NGFA 5th gen will have Russian engine possibly AL 41
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion
> 
> 
> But that‘s for the WS-10C, the updated version used by the J-20A. In contrast to the C-model, the J-10C uses the less powerful standard WS-10B, which is supposed to deliver a thrust of 132kn. No worries bro it is hard to find anything. Yes bro always hard to find official sources in China...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk




I would take this with a *HUGE *grain of salt ... her claims, the Block 3 would have dramatic changes to the rear fuselage, would feature a wing with wider span and different aspect ration and anyone could see it without giving any proof led me to question her credibility after she returned. In fact i would love to be corrected and even more to learn more, but like some other members who often enough pop up with quite unrealistic and unbelievable claims, she also refuses to explain. That's fine if she likes so but IMO not helpful to find the truth.

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## TNT

So we didn't get ToT for rd93 that we will use in the hundreds but will get ToT for AL 31 that we may use less than a hundred? This forum has degraded to dumb rumor level stuff, dumb and illogical things being discussed again and again and some even fight over it. 
People throw around the term ToT as if its a manual that magically gives u ability to make stuff, have anyone ever seen engine ToT between nations before?? Turks license build engines since long but still cant make their own, we have alleged ToT of submarines but still cant build one.

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## ARMalik

*IF* there is any truth to AL31 then this could also mean another thing -- *PAF might be interested in Russian Birds with the same engine, example, SU 35 etc. !!*


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## Trango Towers

ARMalik said:


> *IF* there is any truth to AL31 then this could also mean another thing -- *PAF might be interested in Russian Birds with the same engine, example, SU 35 etc. !!*


Omg here we go...su35 now ...see what rumour mill does

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## Trailer23

Scorpiooo said:


> As per news break by @messiach that PAF J10 will have Al31 engine with ToT
> 
> This is a big news, means PAF trust on Chinese engine is not yet achieved..
> 
> Secondly if AL31 is coming with ToT them RD93 will be also part of package as well.
> 
> Third point then there is higher chances that AZM or NGFA 5th gen will have Russian engine possibly AL 41
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion
> 
> 
> But that‘s for the WS-10C, the updated version used by the J-20A. In contrast to the C-model, the J-10C uses the less powerful standard WS-10B, which is supposed to deliver a thrust of 132kn. No worries bro it is hard to find anything. Yes bro always hard to find official sources in China...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


I'd have to disagree on the whole AL31 Engine & even more on the ToT, but feel free not to take my word.

The J-10C/E is coming with the Chinese engine & that's pretty much set in stone, but again you are at liberty to follow others.

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## Ali_Baba

As a side note - the AL31F engines have some design flaws, which led to the crash of a number of J10's and also causes all kinds of bother for the Su30MKI fleet in India.

Russia has point blank refused to fix the AL-31F and is instead focussing on the AL-41 engine for the Su-57 series.

So, while the RD-33 has done a good job in PAF service, it does not mean all Russian engines are equally as good.

( i dont see PAF going for AL-31Fs at all. If you conside Azm aswell, then PAF may want to settle around a chinese WS-series engine that will mature over time and one that could potentially be used for the 5th Gen fighter aswell ..).

Let's see.

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## Inception-06

Trango Towers said:


> No point comparing...the Chinese use WS-10B
> 
> A woman come in makes a wild claim and disappears and numb nuts discuss it as fact for 75 pages



Does it matter if it’s a woman or men ? Why we lose respect so fast for each other.

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## Trango Towers

Inception-06 said:


> Does it matter if it’s a woman or men ? Why we lose respect so fast for each other.


I think u r making the issues its a woman...maybe gender equality issues....who cares what he or she is..they started a rumor with no backup.


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## Polestar 2

J-10CE with AL-31 plus ToT? China has asked Russian for AL-31 ToT and refuse and now Pakistan asked Russian for AL-31Tot and granted.

Are Russia asking for trouble for Sino-Russian strategic R/S? I believe this rumor is absolutely faked. Plus China will never allowed J-10CE be exported with AL-31 engine.

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## ARMalik

Trango Towers said:


> Omg here we go...su35 now ...see what rumour mill does



I am looking for another 50 pages at least.

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## siegecrossbow

Ali_Baba said:


> As a side note - the AL31F engines have some design flaws, which led to the crash of a number of J10's and also causes all kinds of bother for the Su30MKI fleet in India.
> 
> Russia has point blank refused to fix the AL-31F and is instead focussing on the AL-41 engine for the Su-57 series.
> 
> So, while the RD-33 has done a good job in PAF service, it does not mean all Russian engines are equally as good.
> 
> ( i dont see PAF going for AL-31Fs at all. If you conside Azm aswell, then PAF may want to settle around a chinese WS-series engine that will mature over time and one that could potentially be used for the 5th Gen fighter aswell ..).
> 
> Let's see.



The flaw is with the single engine variant (ALl-31FN/Series 3). Apparently there is problem with lubrication under certain parameters and in serious cases it could cause the engine shaft to break and the engine to disintegrate. I don’t think that the MKI’s crashes have much to do with the engine.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

@messiach claims on PDF:
1) Pakistan is working on indeginous ramjet powered AAM.
2) J10 coming with Al 31 engine 
3)Local assembly of AESA radars.
4) Russian support for NGFA.

Except point no.3, others are just unbelievable.

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## Salza

May be Russians have put such a condition that in order to get continuous support and availability of RD93 for thunders , you have to buy engines from Russia only. Also this may pave way for flankers possiblity as well in near by future . At least this is how Russia can also make some money from Pakistan CHINA collaboration projects. Hi5 for all three countries !

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## TNT

Deino said:


> I would take this with a *HUGE *grain of salt ... her claims, the Block 3 would have dramatic changes to the rear fuselage, would feature a wing with wider span and different aspect ration and anyone could see it without giving any proof led me to question her credibility after she returned. In fact i would love to be corrected and even more to learn more, but like some other members who often enough pop up with quite unrealistic and unbelievable claims, she also refuses to explain. That's fine if she likes so but IMO not helpful to find the truth.
> 
> View attachment 807392



When someone make tall claims in ambiguous language in two liner statements and then never explain anything and disappear, it points to them being a troll or rumor spreader. These claims made are childish at best and shows the person doesnt know anything and just spreading propaganda.

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## CriticalThought

Ali_Baba said:


> As a side note - the AL31F engines have some design flaws, which led to the crash of a number of J10's and also causes all kinds of bother for the Su30MKI fleet in India.
> 
> Russia has point blank refused to fix the AL-31F and is instead focussing on the AL-41 engine for the Su-57 series.
> 
> So, while the RD-33 has done a good job in PAF service, it does not mean all Russian engines are equally as good.
> 
> ( i dont see PAF going for AL-31Fs at all. If you conside Azm aswell, then PAF may want to settle around a chinese WS-series engine that will mature over time and one that could potentially be used for the 5th Gen fighter aswell ..).
> 
> Let's see.



The reason why RD-93 has performed so well is because PAF took over the responsibility of maintaining it. They went to France to get the capability of repairing harnesses on hot areas of the engines, as an example.

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## Beast

TNT said:


> When someone make tall claims in ambiguous language in two liner statements and then never explain anything and disappear, it points to them being a troll or rumor spreader. These claims made are childish at best and shows the person doesnt know anything and just spreading propaganda.


Its not the first time, plenty of such nonsense as claim quote from twitter or BS claim of insider info for many other incident.

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## Trango Towers

CriticalThought said:


> The reason why RD-93 has performed so well is because PAF took over the responsibility of maintaining it. They went to France to get the capability of repairing harnesses on hot areas of the engines, as an example.


What harnesses?


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## RangeMaster

"TOT has been made part of every defence acquisition/deal now", MODP Yearbook 2020-21.

2 squadrons of J15s have landed. 3rd one in negotiations. A squadron+ of JH7s have landed but are grounded due to engine issues. (Khafee leaks)

JF17 blk3 has structural changes with wider wings and bigger fuselage. Pakistan has acquired TOT for AL31. (Messiah leaks)

Troll level # 9999999

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## CriticalThought

Trango Towers said:


> What harnesses?



Them harnesses:









IDEAS 2016: Pakistan Aeronautical Complex signs MoU with French company


On the third day of the 2016 International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS), Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) has signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) with a French company. Speaking...




quwa.org


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## VkdIndian

If the flypast has to take place on 23 Mar then the pilots have to be under training already. Means - the deal would have been signed long back without it coming out in open. Selection and routing of pilots to China would also have been done in complete secrecy.
Credit to all those involved to keep such a thing under wraps.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE




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## Beast

RangeMaster said:


> "TOT has been made part of every defence acquisition/deal now", MODP Yearbook 2020-21.
> 
> 
> 
> 2 squadrons of J15s have landed. 3rd one in negotiations. A squadron+ of JH7s have landed but are grounded due to engine issues. (Khafee leaks)
> JF17 blk3 has structural changes with wider wings and bigger fuselage. Pakistan has acquired TOT for AL31. (Messiah leaks)
> 
> Troll level # 9999999


Soon it will claim, China also transfer ToT tech for Type 003 aircraft carrier or 055 destroyer to PN.

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## Titanium100

Beast said:


> Soon it will claim, China also transfer ToT tech for Type 003 aircraft carrier or 055 destroyer to PN.




Does an aircraft carrier have ToT? I thought it was a simple giant to build but costly


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## JawadKKhan

Dreamer. said:


> Well Bro if you want to nit pick  , then he did say that PAF will do the flypast with JS-10 chinese aircraft . So do you think PAF will be doing flypast with PLAAF aircraft? Is that what you think he meant?
> 
> So PAF will get pilots trained to fly 'JS-10' just to do a fly past in a parade? And PLAAF will gladly loan their aircraft for someone else to do a flypast with?



PAF is getting J-10C that part is cleared. Otherwise PAF would have dismissed all the rumors after media reports. But Whether PAF J-10Cs will do the fly past Or the PLAAF jets that's not clear yet. Other country team do participate in such events especially when there is close military relationships. e.g. Turkish team do the solo fly past. I am not saying for sure that it will be chinese team, but the possibility is there. Because time is very less. Its highly unlikely that if PAF jets arrive just before Parade and will participate as well. Remember, Pilots have to practice a lot for these airshows. So I think time is very low unless planes arrive this month or early next month. 

BTW! J-10c had participated in 2019 parade as well. see below:





So, I think the only thing that is clear for now is that PAF is getting J-10s But it is not yet clear that whether it will be PAF J-10s or J-10s of chinese aerobatic team in the upcoming parade Or both perhaps a fly past of 4 PAF J-10s followed by this aerobatic team show.

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## SIPRA

VkdIndian said:


> If the flypast has to take place on 23 Mar then the pilots have to be under training already. Means - the deal would have been signed long back without it coming out in open. Selection and routing of pilots to China would also have been done in complete secrecy.
> Credit to all those involved to keep such a thing under wraps.



Yes. But we don't have much trust in our Interior Minister "Sheeda Tully". He is no less than Amit Shah "Tadipaar".

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## siegecrossbow

Beast said:


> Soon it will claim, China also transfer ToT tech for Type 003 aircraft carrier or 055 destroyer to PN.


I'm thinking more along the lines of PAF skipping fifth gen all together and co-developing sixth generation laser totting unmanned space capable fighter with the CAC.

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## VkdIndian

SIPRA said:


> But we don't have much trust in our Interior Minister "Sheeda Tully".


I am sure that even he was not aware of the deal. Had he known, it wouldn’t have remained a secret.
For pilots to be able to put a display, they would need to get basic proficiency and then graduate to formation flying. In normal course this wouldn’t take less than 6-7 months (atleast). In addition flying training on an aircraft would start only after ground school and classes for few months. From the time a deal is considered and signed these activities can’t be started the very next day and would take 3-4 months even on fast track mode. Adding all these numbers indicates that the deal would have been finalised atleast an year back.
The second possibility is that the deal has been signed later and training started. But not in time for PAF pilots to do the flypast. Probably the flypast would be done by Chinese pilots as brought out few posts above. Interior ministers claims would be proven correct in this scenario. Which are -Flypast by J10 (done by Chinese) and Pakistan acquiring it to counter Rafale (induction a little later).

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## SIPRA

VkdIndian said:


> I am sure that even he was not aware of the deal. Had he known, it wouldn’t have remained a secret.
> For pilots to be able to put a display, they would need to get basic proficiency and then graduate to formation flying. In normal course this wouldn’t take less than 6-7 months (atleast). In addition flying training on an aircraft would start only after ground school and classes for few months. From the time a deal is considered and signed these activities can’t be started the very next day and would take 3-4 months even on fast track mode. Adding all these numbers indicates that the deal would have been finalised atleast an year back.
> The second possibility is that the deal has been signed later and training started. But not in time for PAF pilots to do the flypast. Probably the flypast would be done by Chinese pilots as brought out few posts above. Interior ministers claims would be proven correct in this scenario. Which are -Flypast by J10 (done by Chinese) and Pakistan acquiring it to counter Rafale (induction a little later).



Yes. May be, that is the case, as you are telling. My knowledge about these affairs is close to zilch. Just read, what knowledgeable posters, like you, post and form some trivial opinion.


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## lcloo

Mav3rick said:


> China is NO US! Whatever China gives, it takes back with interest (compound); there is a reason it is being equated to the current era's East India Company. What they did to Sri Lanka with the Port is just a prime example.
> 
> Why we are continuously digging this debt trap (or rather debt grave) is beyond me. Our Nuclear Weapons are sufficient deterrence against any loss of Land to India (or any other country). We simply cannot match India's purchasing power (until our economy is just as strong) and the sooner we recognize it the better.


Aids with political strings is different from commercial financing. It is like comparing apple to orange.

However, it is your choice to choose from whom you want the money to come from.


----------



## Beast

Titanium100 said:


> Does an aircraft carrier have ToT? I thought it was a simple giant to build but costly


Why not u build a true 85000 tons carrier first and tell me it's simple giant?

Carrier deck are special reinforce material to withstand huge aircraft landing ljke heavy weight fighter of J-15. They also need to withstand nozzle heat burning. Then u have the catapult and arrestor hook system which only a few countries can make their own. Finally, the propulsion system that makes a 85000tons monster goes at 30knots plus fast accelerate ability unlike commercial or cruise passenger which not required.

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## Titanium100

Beast said:


> Why not u build a true 85000 tons carrier and tell me it's simple giant?



The giant takes time to complete and a mouth full


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## RangeMaster

Beast said:


> Why not u build a true 85000 tons carrier and tell me it's simple giant?


Behold... Carrier is coming. China is transferring old carrier to Pak in 2028. More gems from Khafee & Co.

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## SIPRA

RangeMaster said:


> Behold... Carrier is coming. China is transferring old carrier to Pak in 2028. More gems from Khafee & Co.



Extremely juicy item for a fresh thread.

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## Reichsmarschall

RangeMaster said:


> Behold... Carrier is coming. China is transferring old carrier to Pak in 2028. More gems from Khafee & Co.


20 J15s also delivered

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## Goenitz

@Beast @MH.Yang @araz 

Can ZDK /J-10C/JF-17 can relay search and track data to a HQ9 battery?


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## Rafi

StraightEdge said:


> That's news to me, maybe I haven't read about J10c properly. Quick google search tells me that J10c produces 123/135 KN of thrust as compared to 150 KN in Rafale. Since J10c specifications are opaque and different places post different values, hard to find a reliable figure.
> j-10 - wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> And if they use Russian engine instead of Chinese, then it will be even lesser.



Chinese engine on J10C 14.5 to 15.0 tons thrust and weighs about a ton lighter than Raphael.

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## Mav3rick

Enigma SIG said:


> IMF is interest free? WB is interest free? ADB is interest free? Just wait till you default on those obligations.
> 
> Where do Pakistani's get their education I swear. Gotta raze those schools to the ground.



How did you even come up with the logic, equating apples with oranges when I was merely comparing Chinese financial assistance to that of the US! 

Where did you get your education, non-Pakistani?

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## MastanKhan

Thorough Pro said:


> Not so much since Russia already cooperated in setting up RD93 rebuild factory in Pakistan, it make perfect sense to go with the Russian engine for J10 also, I can also foresee another Russian engine for Pakistan's indigenous 5th gen project adding and enhancing more to that rebuild factory to maybe start some kind of engine parts manufacturing and become expert in maintaining/rebuilding Russian engines, just like we did with Mirage rebuild the factory with future prospects of starting complete engine manufacturing with Russian technical assistance.



Hi,

There is a german naysayer here who stated awhile ago that AL31 would never be available to pakistan---or any other chinese aircraft with russian engine.

Oh well---we will see.

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## JamD

CriticalThought said:


> OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @SQ8 @Goenitz


Very very much doubt everything in that post. Sorry.

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## SQ8

JamD said:


> Very very much doubt everything in that post. Sorry.


It doesn’t make sense from the current information available - especially regarding the Al-31 Tot since the numbers for the J-10 don’t justify it and seems odd the Chinese would agree to use the engine they are phasing out themselves.

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## Danish Moazzam

May be by TOT she meant transfer of maintenance and overhaul technology, why does TOT have to be about building an entire engine. We have the ability to overhaul the RD-93, why not look at AL-31 in case that a fighter with the specified engine is intended for purchase.

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## Dreamer.

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Is it not possible for the PAF to invite PLAAF to also do a fly past on 23 March?
> 
> He is just a politician who once out of frustration ordered PTI fanboys to burn down the Pakistani Parliament.


I think I already stated in previous post that Sheikh Rasheed clearly said that PAF will do the flypast...so it can't be PLAAF. 

Anyway the whole point was since you were posting literal words from speech and giving weight to that so I showed you where he said what. The issue that he is a politician who is reliable or not is a separate matter.


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## Aesterix

SQ8 said:


> It doesn’t make sense from the current information available - especially regarding the Al-31 Tot since the numbers for the J-10 don’t justify it and seems odd the Chinese would agree to use the engine they are phasing out themselves.


Cost?
If Chinese phasing out, they won't have issues in selling them to Pakistan at cheaper price.


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## SQ8

Aesterix said:


> Cost?
> If Chinese phasing out, they won't have issues in selling them to Pakistan at cheaper price.


Refurbished AL-31s would have at best 1000 hours left on them so it would be fairly short sighted.

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## Dreamer.

JawadKKhan said:


> PAF is getting J-10C that part is cleared. Otherwise PAF would have dismissed all the rumors after media reports. But Whether PAF J-10Cs will do the fly past Or the PLAAF jets that's not clear yet. Other country team do participate in such events especially when there is close military relationships. e.g. Turkish team do the solo fly past. I am not saying for sure that it will be chinese team, but the possibility is there. Because time is very less. Its highly unlikely that if PAF jets arrive just before Parade and will participate as well. Remember, Pilots have to practice a lot for these airshows. So I think time is very low unless planes arrive this month or early next month.
> 
> BTW! J-10c had participated in 2019 parade as well. see below:
> 
> So, I think the only thing that is clear for now is that PAF is getting J-10s But it is not yet clear that whether it will be PAF J-10s or J-10s of chinese aerobatic team in the upcoming parade Or both perhaps a fly past of 4 PAF J-10s followed by this aerobatic team show.


I'm aware of 2019 J-10 performance, I saw it (on tv). My post was only related to the post I quoted's emphasis on words used. As for the statement itself, to begin with I'll only believe a number as high as 25 J-10's in the parade if I see it! And "JS-10" ?
So obviously there's something wrong with the statement from day one...how much of it was wrong or right is something we'll find out. 

Having said that news of J-10 for PAF has come from other sources aswell.


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## Scorpiooo

If AL31 with ToT news is true, them mean number of J10s will higher even we can see 90 plus jets i.e 5 to 6 sqr in coming future

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## Aesterix

RangeMaster said:


> "TOT has been made part of every defence acquisition/deal now", MODP Yearbook 2020-21.
> 
> 2 squadrons of J15s have landed. 3rd one in negotiations. A squadron+ of JH7s have landed but are grounded due to engine issues. (Khafee leaks)
> 
> JF17 blk3 has structural changes with wider wings and bigger fuselage. Pakistan has acquired TOT for AL31. (Messiah leaks)
> 
> Troll level # 9999999


There was a member here called @Khafee .
He used to claim similar things.


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## Deino

Rafi said:


> Chinese engine on J10C 14.5 to 15.0 tons thrust and weighs about a ton lighter than Raphael.




No, the regular WS-10B has 2only“ 132 kN


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## Shotgunner51

Rafi said:


> Chinese engine on J10C 14.5 to 15.0 tons thrust and weighs about a ton lighter than Raphael.


Yes that's the point, being lighter by a ton gives J-10C superior T/W ratio (thrust to weight ratio) to Rafale posting maneuver advantage in overall A2A scenario particularly in WVR. At BVR, the much larger KLJ-series AESA on J-10CA has 1200 T/R modules, way more powerful than the Rafale's RBE2 which only has 838 T/R modules. J-10C though nowadays being "tuned" for multi-role it was designed as 2 mach AA jet in the first place, but that's also why its wing area/span (hence lighter a ton) & aspect ratio makes it lesser of a "bomb truck" type of strike platform vis-a-vis Rafale.

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## Scorpiooo

What will be possible paint scheme on coming J10p


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## CriticalThought

SQ8 said:


> It doesn’t make sense from the current information available - especially regarding the Al-31 Tot since the numbers for the J-10 don’t justify it and seems odd the Chinese would agree to use the engine they are phasing out themselves.



You know, it would all make sense if these 'JS-10's were manufactured at PAC. At least some of them. Messiach previously said that Block 3 will have different formats for air superiority and strike. Do note that I DO NOT want to feed the rumor mill, just putting forward a possibility.

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## The Terminator

Mav3rick said:


> China is NO US! Whatever China gives, it takes back with interest (compound); there is a reason it is being equated to the current era's East India Company. What they did to Sri Lanka with the Port is just a prime example.
> 
> Why we are continuously digging this debt trap (or rather debt grave) is beyond me. Our Nuclear Weapons are sufficient deterrence against any loss of Land to India (or any other country). We simply cannot match India's purchasing power (until our economy is just as strong) and the sooner we recognize it the better.


Thanks to God China isn't US


----------



## The Terminator

Salza said:


> May be Russians have put such a condition that in order to get continuous support and availability of RD93 for thunders , you have to buy engines from Russia only. Also this may pave way for flankers possiblity as well in near by future . At least this is how Russia can also make some money from Pakistan CHINA collaboration projects. Hi5 for all three countries !


But that's not good for Pakistan. Flankers are maintenance thirsty planes with really bad turn around times, logistical nightmare and inefficient to operate as compared to western systems.


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## Rafi

Deino said:


> No, the regular WS-10B has 2only“ 132 kN



Ok


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## kursed

Don't see PAF opting for maintenance heavy and accident prone AL-31, that'd be akin to shooting themselves in the foot in the presence of WS10B as a choice.

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## Rafi

kursed said:


> Don't see PAF opting for maintenance heavy and accident prone AL-31, that'd be akin to shooting themselves in the foot in the presence of WS10B as a choice.



It is WS10B IMHO.

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## SQ8

CriticalThought said:


> You know, it would all make sense if these 'JS-10's were manufactured at PAC. At least some of them. Messiach previously said that Block 3 will have different formats for air superiority and strike. Do note that I DO NOT want to feed the rumor mill, just putting forward a possibility.


That would make sense in some ways and the AL-31 aspect does have merit especially when you consider the more direct relationship Pakistan has forged with Russian manufacturers post 2010. The RD-93s now comes directly, Russian engineers come and go along with information sharing - but Saturn has a fairly tight relationship with HAL so it would be odd if this happens and the Indians don’t whine out bloody murder at every available channel and more.

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## SQ8

@Deino @Shotgunner51 @Beast 
Has there been any reports(non opsec compromising variety) of PLAAF study on MTBO between WS-10 and AL-31 variants?

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## Trailer23

Someone seems on the edge with the figure of (just) 25 Jets. Are they in for a surprise in 2022...

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## Trailer23

Reichsmarschall said:


> 20 J15s also delivered





Trailer23 said:


> If I had a nickle for everytime I heard conversation of *J-11*, *J-15* & *J-16* on [PDF], i'd have a Private Jet - 24hrs on Standby.


Bro, it's okay to be chasing dreams every once in a while. Some of us do it too, but those are usually hypothetical. 

If what you claim to be true means they will be in the Air in PAF colors before the end of the year.

And respectfully, a lot of things have "apparently" been delivered secretly to a number of bases over a year or so, but we've yet to see anything.

Every once in a while we outta go back a few pages, look at what all has been promised by people & ask, "So where are they"


----------



## Trango Towers

Aesterix said:


> Cost?
> If Chinese phasing out, they won't have issues in selling them to Pakistan at cheaper price.


Why would you buy old used engines for new fighters......oh if I used my brain

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## applesauce

Trango Towers said:


> Why would you buy old used engines for new fighters......oh if I used my brain


china doesnt have old AL31 to spare. it hasnt ordered any in years and older jets still use it so any still on hand would be used as replacement engines for those older jets.

i also doubt new j-10c would come with al31 and the only way for pakistan to get the j10c with al31 is if they took delivery of in service plaaf stock of used j10c, but this is unlikely.

j10c isnt a collaboration project and china isnt going to spend millions restarting the j10c/al031 line just for pakistan when it has just switched over to ws10.

of course we'll have to wait til the planes are in PAF service to be sure.

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## SQ8

Goenitz said:


> @Beast @MH.Yang @araz
> 
> Can ZDK /J-10C/JF-17 can relay search and track data to a HQ9 battery?


No - ZDK (and possibly JF-17)provides input back to Pakistan national Air Defense networks who can pass it onto the HQ-9 battery.

No idea where it stands today but during development the idea was that an operator in the national center could point and click to send an engage request to ANY asset(within the national grid) and secure communications would deliver the message directly to the controlling node for that asset(GCI/AEW for fighter, AD Site controller for SAMs) to carry out the task.
The latency for the 1990’s NATO system was around 180 seconds so hopefully this matches or beats it.

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## raja786

The Eagle said:


> Or he says something like
> بھائی میں مذاق کر رہا تھا،،،،، میرے منہ سے نکل گیا تھا


یہ پہلے بھی اس طرح کہ چکا ہے۔ مگر اس بات کے پیچھے کچھ نہ کچھ ہے جو اس طرح کا بیان دیا گیا۔


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## raja786

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> That is worrying. Wondering how Pakistan has survived this long.
> 
> If it's okay for you to reveal, can I ask how does the military interact with the PDF staff to prevent certain information from being published here? Is it via ISPR making a request or someone with a direct hotline between the military and the forum admin(s)?


This is called 5th generation warfare, info gets leaked on purpose when it comes to tight lip policy I know how they work.


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## serenity

ARMalik said:


> *IF* there is any truth to AL31 then this could also mean another thing -- *PAF might be interested in Russian Birds with the same engine, example, SU 35 etc. !!*



Su-35 doesn't use AL-31. Su-35 uses 117S engines which itself is different to 117 and AL-41.

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## Beast

SQ8 said:


> @Deino @Shotgunner51 @Beast
> Has there been any reports(non opsec compromising variety) of PLAAF study on MTBO between WS-10 and AL-31 variants?


So far it secret. Nobody know but rumour is Chinese MTBO is definitely higher than Russia one given the Chinese massive improve on metallurgy.

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## cssniper

Rumor says that WS-10C for J-20 has a larger propulsion than 10B at the expense of shorter MTBO or lifespan. 
It's likely designed for supersonic cruise.
Maybe other aircrafts like J-10C could use that too?


----------



## Bleek

Riz said:


> Patwari sb…Mian G na jub kaha k woh Tom cruise mijjile US na mara tha Afghanistan par woh Alhamdullilah ma na reverse engineer kar k banya ha ….nawazu ki bat to tum fatafat man gay ab shaikh rasheek ki bat keun nhi samjh rahy ??


Not reverse engineering, he did the back engineering 😆

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## Beast

cssniper said:


> Rumor says that WS-10C for J-20 has a larger propulsion than 10B at the expense of shorter MTBO or lifespan.
> It's likely designed for supersonic cruise.
> Maybe other aircrafts like J-10C could use that too?


Another BS from unknown source.

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## MastanKhan

Scorpiooo said:


> As per news break by @messiach that PAF J10 will have Al31 engine with ToT
> 
> This is a big news, *means PAF trust on Chinese engine is not yet achieved.*.
> 
> Secondly if AL31 is coming with ToT them RD93 will be also part of package as well.
> 
> Third point then there is higher chances that AZM or NGFA 5th gen will have Russian engine possibly AL 41
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion
> 
> 
> But that‘s for the WS-10C, the updated version used by the J-20A. In contrast to the C-model, the J-10C uses the less powerful standard WS-10B, which is supposed to deliver a thrust of 132kn. No worries bro it is hard to find anything. Yes bro always hard to find official sources in China...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk



Hi,

It means that the Paf has something else cooking with the russians---. It not the TOT package per say---it is more like complete service and overhaul capability---.-.

Someone with basic engineering know how would know that Pakistan industrial complex does not have the capability to absorb TOT of AL31 engine.

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## PurpleButcher

Since we are on discussing Nawaz Shareef's engineering capabilities, the following video would explain his role in Pakistan's nuclear program






On topic of J-10 and AL-31, it does not make any logical sense !

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## ARMalik

serenity said:


> Su-35 doesn't use AL-31. Su-35 uses 117S engines which itself is different to 117 and AL-41.



The _izdeliye_ 117S (AL-41F1S) is an upgrade of the AL-31F.  SU-35 uses AL-31 or a variant of AL-31. Even AL-41 is just another variant of AL-31.

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## serenity

ARMalik said:


> The _izdeliye_ 117S (AL-41F1S) is an upgrade of the AL-31F.  SU-35 uses AL-31 or a variant of AL-31. Even AL-41 is just another variant of AL-31.



The difference is like between WS-10 prototypes from 2000s to WS-10B from 2019. The true number of interchangeable parts is unknown and unlikely to give those theories merit.

Please stop believing any random rumors and posts that say clearly ridiculously crazy things.

There is no ToT between Russia and Pakistan on AL-31 or even RD-93 and RD-93 is in PAF service in close to 200 units if not more.

Messiach has a history of providing false and inaccurate rumors.

At the moment we cannot prove either way but to already have faith in some random internet post.

There is a huge level of difference between AL-31 and AL-41/117/117s even if they share some common basis.

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## Reichsmarschall

Trailer23 said:


> Bro, it's okay to be chasing dreams every once in a while. Some of us do it too, but those are usually hypothetical.
> 
> If what you claim to be true means they will be in the Air in PAF colors before the end of the year.
> 
> And respectfully, a lot of things have "apparently" been delivered secretly to a number of bases over a year or so, but we've yet to see anything.
> 
> Every once in a while we outta go back a few pages, look at what all has been promised by people & ask, "So where are they"


I was just quoting (((them))) and it was meant to be a joke


----------



## Falconless

Deltadart said:


> I have always felt that DG ISPR should be a civilian employee of the defense dept


Just move the ISPR offices to be inside the MOD.


----------



## MH.Yang

cssniper said:


> Rumor says that WS-10C for J-20 has a larger propulsion than 10B at the expense of shorter MTBO or lifespan.
> It's likely designed for supersonic cruise.
> Maybe other aircrafts like J-10C could use that too?



J10C uses WS10B. Why should we pay attention to the undoubtedly WS10B? There is no doubt about it.

I'm surprised. Shouldn't our focus be PL15 or PL15E? There is a gap in the max-range between the two. Can J10C in Pakistan obtain PL15?

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It means that the Paf has something else cooking with the russians---. It not the TOT package per say---it is more like complete service and overhaul capability---.-.
> 
> Someone with basic engineering know how would know that Pakistan industrial complex does not have the capability to absorb TOT of AL31 engine.




No, it only means we have yet another unconfirmed and highly unlikely rumour. Nothing more, nothing less ... but for a car-seller this is probably beyond its understanding.

More interesting however is, this all is from a person with a great record of credibility before her pause but a not-so well one after her return.

Her claims, the JF-17 Block 3 would have dramatic changes on the rear fuselage, a wing with a wider span and different aspect ration - what so far has either been proven wrong or is still not explained and no-one but her sees these changes - is a testimony to this: Claiming something that is barely believable, ignore all explanations and avoid any discussion and then sit aside and watch the fun, how the discussion erupts.

And that you believe such claims - most likely only since I and others rate them as BS - is also more than understandable. As long as you can spit BS on others you hate, it's fine, but a person, who "agrees on all accounts" that the Block 3 will use an Italian engine and fire AMRAAMs has anyway lost all credibility here.

So why should anyone care what you say... ?

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## Bleek

Deino said:


> No, it only means we have yet another unconfirmed and highly unlikely rumour. Nothing more, nothing less ... but for a car-seller this is probably beyond its understanding.
> 
> More interesting however is, this all is from a person with a great record of credibility before her pause but a not-so well one after her return.
> 
> Her claims, the JF-17 Block 3 would have dramatic changes on the rear fuselage, a wing with a wider span and different aspect ration - what so far has either been proven wrong or is still not explained and no-one but her sees these changes - is a testimony to this: Claiming something that is barely believable, ignore all explanations and avoid any discussion and then sit aside and watch the fun, how the discussion erupts.
> 
> And that you believe such claims - most likely only since I and others rate then as BS - is also more than understandable. As long as you can spit BS on others you hate, it's fine, but a person, who "agrees on all accounts" that the Block 3 will use an Italian engine and fire AMRAAMs has anyway lost all credibility here.
> 
> So why should anyone care what you say... ?


The real question is, why is someone still allowed to post unreliable hearsay constantly without any warning?

What even is their credibility that people follow along without question?


MH.Yang said:


> J10C uses WS10B. Why should we pay attention to the undoubtedly WS10B? There is no doubt about it.
> 
> I'm surprised. Shouldn't our focus be PL15 or PL15E? There is a gap in the max-range between the two. Can J10C in Pakistan obtain PL15?


I can't think of a reason as to why not the full version, I don't think it's as secretive technology as say the J-20, it's a missile, and after the purchase of J-10C we may be allowed access to it. It would make a significant difference against the Rafale

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## Deino

Bleek said:


> The real question is, why is someone still allowed to post unreliable hearsay constantly without any warning?
> 
> What even is their credibility that people follow along without question?




In fact I don't know but it seems as if some here are handled like eggs regardless what they claim or how they interact with others. And since I am "only" that arrogant stupid German, who only wants links and sources, so what I say is irrelevant anyway.

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## Titanium100

Deino said:


> In fact I don't know but it seems as if some here are handled like eggs regardless what they claim or how they interact with others. And since I am "only" that arrogant stupid German, who only wants links and sources, so what I say is irrelevant anyway.



Aren't you german chinese? or Chinese ethnically in that matter


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## serenity

Titanium100 said:


> @peagle the ban was
> 
> 
> Aren't you german chinese? or Chinese ethnically in that matter



Deino is Andreas Rupprecht the author of many military literature on PLA.

He is about as Chinese as German lager.

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## Deino

Titanium100 said:


> @peagle the ban was
> 
> 
> Aren't you german chinese? or Chinese ethnically in that matter




None of that ... just a "strange" German 









NDR Info - Die Nachrichten für den Norden


Die Nachrichten für den Norden: Das ist NDR Info - im Fernsehen, Radio, Web und als App. Außerdem: Kommentare und exklusive Recherchen, Radio im Livestream und aktuelle Videos.




www.ndr.de

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## Titanium100

serenity said:


> He is about as Chinese as German lager.



Fair enough that last part can be slightly confusing since his technically a german lager I figure He will likely reply with ''Das ist nicht mein Bier''


Deino said:


> None of that ... just a "strange" German
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NDR Info - Die Nachrichten für den Norden
> 
> 
> Die Nachrichten für den Norden: Das ist NDR Info - im Fernsehen, Radio, Web und als App. Außerdem: Kommentare und exklusive Recherchen, Radio im Livestream und aktuelle Videos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ndr.de



No wonder you are respected everywhere and even mod everywhere.. You seem to be acclaimed

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## Trailer23

MH.Yang said:


> I'm surprised. Shouldn't our focus be PL15 or PL15E? There is a gap in the max-range between the two. Can J10C in Pakistan obtain PL15?


You've raised a very good point, and to respond - it isn't the latter.

*Confirmed Source*


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## luciferdd

MH.Yang said:


> J10C uses WS10B. Why should we pay attention to the undoubtedly WS10B? There is no doubt about it.
> 
> I'm surprised. Shouldn't our focus be PL15 or PL15E? There is a gap in the max-range between the two. Can J10C in Pakistan obtain PL15?


Surely it 's 100% PL-15E that without dual pulse engine,145+KM range PL15E is enough to deal with meteor.


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## peagle

Titanium100 said:


> @peagle the ban was
> 
> 
> Aren't you german chinese? or Chinese ethnically in that matter



I'm not sure why I have been included in this discussion, I've never been banned.

And @Deino, I've seen vile crap written on this thread towards Pakistan and those members continue to operate.
Perhaps it is a matter of something being reported or not, or perhaps there is a line where you are given a chance but continuous crossing results in action.

Plus I'm sure you know that justice is blind, therefore there will be cases where it doesn't make sense, but then that's where you fight your case. Perhaps you are referring to those unusual cases.

I've visited other forums as a visitor, and I'm shocked how much leeway is given here to members to speak about Pakistan, given that it is a Pakistani forum, I have not seen such freedoms on other political/military forums. Not by far.

Complaining is good, but fair is fair.

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## Titanium100

peagle said:


> I'm not sure why I have been included in this discussion, I've never been banned.
> 
> And @Deino, I've seen vile crap written on this thread towards Pakistan and those members continue to operate.
> Perhaps it is a matter of something being reported or not, or perhaps there is a line where you are given a chance but continuous crossing results in action.
> 
> Plus I'm sure you know that justice is blind, therefore there will be cases where it doesn't make sense, but then that's where you fight your case. Perhaps you are referring to those unusual cases.
> 
> I've visited other forums as a visitor, and I'm shocked how much leeway is given here to members to speak about Pakistan, given that it is a Pakistani forum, I have not seen such freedoms on other political/military forums. Not by far.
> 
> Complaining is good, but fair is fair.



It was just a typo on my part as I had you qouted on a previous post that I have exited but someonehow things got splid over to this comment


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## Trailer23

luciferdd said:


> Surely it 's 100% PL-15E...


Read my post (above) ☝.

It's the PL-15, and not the 'E' variant.

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## Goenitz

SQ8 said:


> No - ZDK (and possibly JF-17)provides input back to Pakistan national Air Defense networks who can pass it onto the HQ-9 battery.
> 
> No idea where it stands today but during development the idea was that an operator in the national center could point and click to send an engage request to ANY asset(within the national grid) and secure communications would deliver the message directly to the controlling node for that asset(GCI/AEW for fighter, AD Site controller for SAMs) to carry out the task.
> The latency for the 1990’s NATO system was around 180 seconds so hopefully this matches or beats it.


Thanx bro.. that 180s latency is ridiculous now but was the best at that time like from fighter to AD. 

Anyway, I asked that question bcz of Chinese centric system. I think all th radars are made by the same company so perhaps that is possible such as direct link from AWACS to the AD unit. But remembering Sajjad Haider interview I think that centricity already existed through network centre.


----------



## Salza

Trailer23 said:


> Read my post (above) ☝.
> 
> It's the PL-15, and not the 'E' variant.



Not for now but in couple of years E variant will come as well.


----------



## Air Wolf

Salza said:


> *Not for now but in couple of years E variant will come as well.*



Most probably you are under the impression that "E" is better. That's not the case. "E"xport variant's range should be less than original PL15 and as per @Trailer23 confirmation we are getting the same PL15 which is in use by PLAAF as well.

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## Shotgunner51

SQ8 said:


> @Deino @Shotgunner51 @Beast
> Has there been any reports(non opsec compromising variety) of PLAAF study on MTBO between WS-10 and AL-31 variants?


I suppose there must be continuous AECC/PLAAF studies on the subject however just like I've responded to @waz I still can't get any of these official docs/data, most observers still have to do their own homework based on "relatively" credible OSINT sources other than government releases, say news outlets, it's very natural for observers to arrive at different arguments. Like @Beast has suggested I guess WS-10 variants should perform no less than their corresponding AL-31 benchmarks, they are meant to be improved otherwise PLAAF can still use the latter, with WS-10B currently the best performing variant and in serial production for J-10/11/15/16, along with WS-10C which is likely a WS-10B adapted for J-20 compatibility (a temporary solution until WS-15 gets IOC of which timeline is yet uncertain).

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## JawadKKhan

MH.Yang said:


> J10C uses WS10B. Why should we pay attention to the undoubtedly WS10B? There is no doubt about it.
> 
> I'm surprised. Shouldn't our focus be PL15 or PL15E? There is a gap in the max-range between the two. Can J10C in Pakistan obtain PL15?



There are certain equipment in chinese arsenal which are not for export, they want to keep it for themselves to keep surprise factor for possible conflict with US. The PL-15 is their go to weapon against US air-power. Its a very long range missile, I once read US analyst calling it as a threat to their AWACS and other platforms.

As PL-15E is the export version, it should be acquired in maximum quantities. The 145 KM range is quite good already.

However, given PAF / PLAAF close proximity and given the fact PAF is procuring J-10Cs as well, I can only assume that limited PL-15s would be acquired as well (surprise factor for adversary). PAF would want longer range PL-15 for limited skirmishes. 

Even if PL-15 is available to PAF. There can me lot of cost difference between the PL-15 & PL-15E as well. 

Anyone has idea whats the cost of PL-15E ? The cost of Meteor is 2.28 million dollar a piece.

Edit: Cost of PL-15 can be most likely higher then F-7PGs or Mirages IIIs. We also heard ACM Sohail Aman comments about PL-15.. He said, its "very expensive" weapon. So I really do not think that PAF could only buy PL15s (even if available). It will be limited PL-15s and maximum number of PL-15Es for fullscale war stock / practice / airframe life etc.

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## Trailer23

Air Wolf said:


> Most probably you are under the impression that "E" is better. That's not the case. "E"xport variant's range should be less than original PL15 and as per @Trailer23 confirmation we are getting the same PL15 which is in use by PLAAF as well.


That is correct, the PL-15 is obviously far better OR superior to its Export Variant, the PL-15E in range.

Range (reported):
PL-15 - 200 to 300km (in use by the PLAAF)
PL-15*E* - 145km





@Salza - so there is no reason why PAF would want to go for the "E" variant in the not-so-distant future.

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## The Eagle

Bleek said:


> The real question is, why is someone still allowed to post unreliable hearsay constantly without any warning?
> 
> What even is their credibility that people follow along without question?



We are not an authoritarian platform or some sort of verification group that will allow only official details. This is an open Forum and people do say/share their opinion. However, there is a gray area of few members where they do have their say and people have choice to agree or disagree BUT WITH RESPECT. Having said that, Forum try to maintain the credibility of discussion and then moderates accordingly. There are few topics/subjects/opinions that can be allowed given the nature and backdrop of things happening already. 

However, no one is influenced or enforced to share proof given the OPSEC. Questioning the credibility in attempt to fetch more detail; doesn't work in every case. There were few moments claims didn't make any sense and even many title holders lost their account as well as their titles. To reach that point where an action is required or comes a contradiction; it needs time & qualitative discussion on board to work as a deciding point. People involved in argument needs to put their knowledge, opinion and analysis before everyone either to challenge an argument or counter it or prove so & so opinion as a fake. Mere denial & such posts are not enough to doubt one's credibility. Even though, that doesn't sound plausible; the academia based arguments requires a discussion with intellect, findings & references in regard to such acquisitions.

So if anyone thinks that this board will allow only credible news/official account then I don't see any difference between ISPR/DGPR Navy or DGPR Air Force. We are an open Forum available for discussion where people put their best arguments based upon knowledge & findings or observations. What you are asking for, is a like sharing the much secret information or leak the inside info every time which directly leads to a straight ban in some cases. However, an open discussion without compromising or OPSEC, is always welcome and that's the beauty of an open Forum. From now on, instead of questioning members with an internet ID that does not justify the verification; please pay attention to the words being said and emphasis should be on the observation, analysis & findings and counter the same with intellectual based arguments.

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## JawadKKhan

Trailer23 said:


> That is correct, the PL-15 is obviously far better OR superior to its Export Variant, the PL-15E in range.
> 
> Range (reported):
> PL-15 - 200 to 300km (in use by the PLAAF)
> PL-15*E* - 145km
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Salza - so there is no reason why PAF would want to go for the "E" variant in the not-so-distant future.



There is a reason for PAF to go to E-variant. *Cost & availability.*
I really believe both version should be inducted. Limited Pl-15s along with massive qty of export version. Given the fact, we will need mass numbers of missiles for J-17s / J-10Cs. We got 500 Amraams for 75 F-16s, so as J-17s / J-10Cs will be more in quantity in the decade to come, we will be requiring lot of AAMs. *Cost & availability *will factor in.


----------



## Kaleem.61

Trailer23 said:


> Someone seems on the edge with the figure of (just) 25 Jets. Are they in for a surprise in 2022...


18:15~20 Very low IQ! We are not only separate but rivals as well. Just bcz we are opposite to each other.



PanzerKiel said:


> For all our guests here....
> 
> View attachment 804816



2 Billion in your hand.

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## serenity

PL-15 used by PLAAF is not 300km! where is that rumor from?

PL-xx range being 300km is believable. It is a long range missile seen on J-16. It is one of many, many, many Chinese long range air to air missile projects that have also looked at extending range of PL-12 and PL-15.

PL-15 itself as photographed in public is no 300km range missile! this rumor from this forum is repeated by members who are either still not aware of it or choosing to believe PL-15 is 300km ranged.






This unknown PL-xx photographed from around 2016 or earlier is NOT PL-15.

For true long ranged missiles both USA and China have looked at ways to extend the BVR range against fighters through many techniques. Chinese first looked at multi missile carrying rockets that can be carried by H-6 or even heavy aircraft like Flanker and JH-7A but no idea if that was pursued. Probably not. USA then also explored this field and I think they prefer loyal wingman style method instead as well. Basically drone missile carrier is more effective at the job than rocket that shoots or drops already developed BVR missiles. It seems the way both airforces want to be extending the BVR range is through loyal wingman using AI command to optimize all the movement and positioning then of course both have high manufacturing capacity for such aircraft and so is preferred. As a side from that it is only these types of long range missiles that are much less effective against fighter targets at very long ranges. Drones carry some network of electronic attack too don't forget which is why that method is superior.

This is China's loyal wingman first exhibited as model indicating program existence back in 2006.











You want real long range BVR?

This is long range BVR in currently most effective form.





































Do you guys notice something??


This aircraft is flying right now. The only twin seater 5th generation and not for ground attack or electronic warfare (at least not the current intention although I'm guessing they want some sort of J-20D as well).

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## Trailer23

serenity said:


> PL-15 used by PLAAF is not 300km! where is that rumor from?


Not much of a rumor, but based on an article... Obviously can't back up the authenticity of its content.
GlobalSecurity.org

Also, those are numbers mentioned on PL-15's Wiki-page, but can't trust that site either.

*Note**:* Plus there isn't any mention of it on AVIC or CATIC's official website...

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## RealNapster

siegecrossbow said:


> I'm thinking more along the lines of PAF skipping fifth gen all together and co-developing sixth generation laser totting unmanned space capable fighter with the CAC.



To be frank, I think this is the future of fighter jets. In generation 7 or 8 I expect them to travel in the atmosphere as well as out in space (like to the moon or any other mother ship in the space). Like the one we seen in independence day : Resurgence movie.

Edit : its name is H-8 global defender.


----------



## The Eagle

Trailer23 said:


> Not much of a rumor, but based on an article... Obviously can't back up the authenticity of its content.
> GlobalSecurity.org
> 
> Also, those are numbers mentioned on PL-15's Wiki-page, but can't trust that site either.
> 
> *Note**:* Plus there isn't any mention of it on AVIC or CATIC's official website...



If I am not totally wrong on this, PLAAF PL-15 has range around 180KM or 200KM and PAF will be acquiring PLAAF inventory PL-15 not the one PL-15E with 145+- range. Secondly, BVVRAAM PL-21 or PL-XXX the AWACS killer was discussed with 300 KM or around that range.

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## serenity

Trailer23 said:


> Not much of a rumor, but based on an article... Obviously can't back up the authenticity of its content.
> GlobalSecurity.org
> 
> Also, those are numbers mentioned on PL-15's Wiki-page, but can't trust that site either.
> 
> *Note**:* Plus there isn't any mention of it on AVIC or CATIC's official website...



Global Security has some very outdated information as well and others are from unreputable sources too.

PL-15 is roughly 150km range as usual NATO range calculation method I am guessing. This is proven by the PL-15E export version having declared range of 145km or so. Of course all serious military nations understate their missile range and USA and China definitely both tend to understate because overstating is suicidal. Russia does a lot of overstating due to needing to sell many.

So my guess is PL-15E maybe has 170km or so range who knows maybe 200km absolute maximum depending on the country that buys PL-15E. We should remember that PL-15E is just a name holder and not actual missile. Depending on sensitivity and likelihood of war of the purchasing country and who the war would be against, PL-15 sold may change. Half is given internal systems and also half can be controlled by software to reduce or enhance range like a speed limiter on cars in some countries for example.

I do not believe PL-15 is 300km as Global Security suggests it might be. They are themselves either guessing or based on information that is guessing or misquoted and misunderstood. Possibly confused it with other PL-xx projects that have been revealed or not.

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## Bleek

serenity said:


> PL-15 used by PLAAF is not 300km! where is that rumor from?
> 
> PL-xx range being 300km is believable. It is a long range missile seen on J-16. It is one of many, many, many Chinese long range air to air missile projects that have also looked at extending range of PL-12 and PL-15.
> 
> PL-15 itself as photographed in public is no 300km range missile! this rumor from this forum is repeated by members who are either still not aware of it or choosing to believe PL-15 is 300km ranged.
> 
> View attachment 807593
> 
> 
> This unknown PL-xx photographed from around 2016 or earlier is NOT PL-15.
> 
> For true long ranged missiles both USA and China have looked at ways to extend the BVR range against fighters through many techniques. Chinese first looked at multi missile carrying rockets that can be carried by H-6 or even heavy aircraft like Flanker and JH-7A but no idea if that was pursued. Probably not. USA then also explored this field and I think they prefer loyal wingman style method instead as well. Basically drone missile carrier is more effective at the job than rocket that shoots or drops already developed BVR missiles. It seems the way both airforces want to be extending the BVR range is through loyal wingman using AI command to optimize all the movement and positioning then of course both have high manufacturing capacity for such aircraft and so is preferred. As a side from that it is only these types of long range missiles that are much less effective against fighter targets at very long ranges. Drones carry some network of electronic attack too don't forget which is why that method is superior.
> 
> This is China's loyal wingman first exhibited as model indicating program existence back in 2006.
> 
> View attachment 807594
> 
> 
> View attachment 807595
> 
> 
> You want real long range BVR?
> 
> This is long range BVR in currently most effective form.
> 
> View attachment 807597
> 
> 
> View attachment 807598
> 
> 
> View attachment 807599
> 
> 
> View attachment 807600
> 
> 
> View attachment 807601
> 
> 
> View attachment 807602
> 
> 
> View attachment 807603
> 
> 
> 
> Do you guys notice something??
> 
> 
> This aircraft is flying right now. The only twin seater 5th generation and not for ground attack or electronic warfare (at least not the current intention although I'm guessing they want some sort of J-20D as well).
> 
> View attachment 807604


I think they got it from Google (Wiki) as its operational range is stated to be 200-300KM


----------



## Trango Towers

applesauce said:


> china doesnt have old AL31 to spare. it hasnt ordered any in years and older jets still use it so any still on hand would be used as replacement engines for those older jets.
> 
> i also doubt new j-10c would come with al31 and the only way for pakistan to get the j10c with al31 is if they took delivery of in service plaaf stock of used j10c, but this is unlikely.
> 
> j10c isnt a collaboration project and china isnt going to spend millions restarting the j10c/al031 line just for pakistan when it has just switched over to ws10.
> 
> of course we'll have to wait til the planes are in PAF service to be sure.



What is wrong with people here?
Just because you have access to the net doesn't mean you waffle off anything you like.

$^%&$&*#(#)(#(*$&$&%$^$&$&#*#($&*
Then you go and waffle a whole post on no new al31 when we know that China stopped buying these....ugh...the frustration.


----------



## The Eagle

messiach said:


> In addition to local assembly of AESA, J10 comes with AL-31 ToT. We are looking towards a greater russian input in our NGFA program.



I am quoting this post as a reference (not directed to @messiach ) to say that members totally in shock or surprise or even denying such with plain face without putting much in reply, should understand that not to take everything for word to word on Internet. There are always some sort of open ended statements which may be the very reason that leads to so much speculations or even call it a rumor. 

Secondly, newbies totally unaware of previous discussions on different threads regarding cooperation & NGF/AZM buildup will have to go through all the pages and understand the backdrop of such a statement. 

It was said before and discussed that PAC/PAF is working closely with friendly countries & the new friendship is formed as well. That is infact not easy to sum up in two lines but just look at new regional geopolitics & strategical changes. Pakistan-China-Russia & Turkiye are already if not may be, cooperating closely and have read the situation before hand about future eventualities. It was said that PAC will be working closely with partners/friends to uplift defence programs. There are lot of things happening behind closed doors. 

From in-house AESA production to modern AAM of our own with the help of friends; to AZM and tech absorption are well worked out. We might not be very useful for these sort of developments given the so much lag in past and the secrecy around defence projects but it doesn't mean that nothing is happening.

Whether this ToT means a total transfer or maintenance but on other hand, why not to pay attention as what really derived from AL-31 power plant for China? As I said before and I will repeat myself in humble opinion that IF, J-10C is not the only equipment/capability coming to Pakistan. The same statement exist on this thread way before above quoted post and it was merely my observation and how I see certain things. I am taking full responsibility of these words because this is not some sort of insider news or a leak but what I really observed throughout such kind of acquisition processes from the past and an upgraded mindset with all the hard-work for modernization of Defence Production procedure and advance ourselves towards self reliance. I also mentioned before that look at how China advanced in many of defence production fields with the help of Russia but that all came after procurement and years of experience of those platforms. 

We will not buy anything to merely catch a fish. The more of emphasis is on learn to how to catch the fish which includes everything from experience, knowledge, tactics to manufacturing & producing the relevant equipment. May be this is not about exact AL-31 engine and I wouldn't comment further as whatever I may know is purely for own knowledge & satisfaction to believe that we are excelling well and far ahead of an adversary can really think about.

Just look at Thunder program in it all self. Then we announced to go for 5th Gen under AZM. Look at Milgem program off the shelf purchase & Jinnah Class built in house - Look at Type 054-AP for PN and producing few locally. Just look at Augusta 90B upgradation - Look at PN acquiring Hangoor Class Subs and preparing to have in-house production as well. Why we merely disclosed the working on hypersonic CM by PN? Didn't we discuss that PAF will be having our own BVR and I say that it might be something like between PL-12 to PL-XX in future. What you think that those busy bees at AWC are just sitting idle? There is lot of progress being made in different areas and if told openly, I am sure many Pakistanis will deny those in offending manners given our mindset of past by believing that Pakistan ain't producing nothing or not even trying to self reliance in view of political myths.

Above are few examples in short for some people here about how the development may take place. I am not claiming anything in regard to AL-31 ToT but one should not limit him/herself merely to words being said in above quoted post and keep asking for proof or any sense which is more of self issue. If you are looking at an NGF after 15 years, that means you will have to stepping up the game already. It may sound ridiculous by instant reading but there might be few things not said openly. 

That argument of large wingspan of Block-III is valid compare to Block-II wingspan. Then speaking of changes in rear fuselage may sound false but none of us have any clear image & all side view to compare as to how these changes taking place. For example, just look at sensor placements & then inner changes which will not be visible for anyone as of yet or unless some official speaks so. So conclusively for me, not everything is taken merely for the words about it. Keep your mind open and exhaust all the possibilities before a final say and even resorting ourselves to belittle someone having far more credit on subject than most of us. Agree to disagree and counter the arguments without questioning the personality.


Trango Towers said:


> What is wrong with people here?
> Just because you have access to the net doesn't mean you waffle off anything you like.
> 
> $%&%&$&$&$*#*#(#)(*$*%&%&%&%*$*$*$*
> Then you go and waffle a whole post on no new al31 when we know that China stopped buying these....ugh...the frustration.



You can either agree or disagree but you shouldn't be offending like that. I am really sorry but ethics & behaviour be maintained on the Forum. No one is forced to remain present here and no one is shoving any information down the throat of others. Be respectful and that's all I mean to say.

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## peagle

Titanium100 said:


> It was just a typo on my part as I had you qouted on a previous post that I have exited but someonehow things got splid over to this comment



Sure, well I added my bit anyhow lol


----------



## siegecrossbow

RealNapster said:


> To be frank, I think this is the future of fighter jets. In generation 7 or 8 I expect them to travel in the atmosphere as well as out in space (like to the moon or any other mother ship in the space). Like the one we seen in independence day : Resurgence movie.
> 
> Edit : its name is H-8 global defender.
> 
> View attachment 807607



I was joking.

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## RealNapster

siegecrossbow said:


> I was joking.



I know. That's why I said " I expect " generation 7 or 8 ( not JF-17 or J-10 or other 5th generation jets) to be able to go up in space too. Like really up. Mig-29 once managed to travel upto 23 km height. Its a technology of 80's which come under generation 3.5++ or 4 generation. I can expect generation 7 or 8 to atleast pass 50 km height mark . No ?

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## Trailer23

Lets celebrate *100 Pages* of _Sheikh Rasheed_ & his deliberate spill that has led to so much interest* in so many parts of the World.

*enough for _Maj. Gubar Arya_ to dedicate an entire show & questioning as to where Pakistan is getting the money to pay for these new toys (not limiting the conversation to just the J-10C).

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## siegecrossbow

Trailer23 said:


> Lets celebrate *100 Pages* of _Sheikh Rasheed_ & his deliberate spill that has led to so much interest* in so many parts of the World.
> 
> *enough for _Maj. Gubar Arya_ to dedicate an entire show & questioning as to where Pakistan is getting the money to pay for these new toys (not limiting the conversation to just the J-10C).



The butthurt is fantastic.

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## MH.Yang

luciferdd said:


> Surely it 's 100% PL-15E that without dual pulse engine,145+KM range PL15E is enough to deal with meteor.


China has a precedent of selling its own version to Pakistan, and PL15 technology is not as sensitive as it was a few years ago. USA has begun testing AIM260.

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## tphuang

J-10Cs are not coming with AL-31. China waited until WS-10B is mature on J-10Cs before exporting them. There is no need for local assembly of AESA radar when JF-17 project already has AESA radar that I'm sure PAC can request to locally assemble. Russia's 5th generation project is a disaster right now. Why would anyone want to join that?

The biggest mistake India made were participating in the Su-30MKI project and then Su-57. They ended giving a lot of money to fund Russia development for years and got no 5th generation aircraft and an improved su-27 that took years to mature and is now way behind other 4.5 generation aircraft in electronics. Of course, it gave armchair QBs on Internet as lot of time to boast about what great weapons their trusted Russian friend was giving them (that China didn't have access to) and how they were going to destroy China. In reality, it was a big waste of their time for a fleet that is still struggling to achieve availability on it.

Don't get obsessed with stuff like PL-15E vs PL-15. No one here knows how capable the version PL-15 version is or what version PAF is getting for sure. It doesn't really matter. The published range on these things are meaningless. PAF will have to do its own testing to see what is a realistic NEZ on it and then utilize that in the battle field. It's more useful for combat readiness to have a reliable and available aircraft in service as soon as possible. That allows you to train with it, develop tactics and discover/improve its capability.

I'm sure that's not as fun as telling Indians my radar has 400 more T/R modules and sees 10 km further out than yours, so I will win. That kind of arguments is meaningless. You have something that will be in your service with basically similar size, payload and generation of electronics. It's up to PAF now to bring it up to the best combat capability and work with CAC to improve it. Not only will PLAAF help PAF with getting trained on J-10Cs, but PAF will also help CAC/PLAAF with knowledge and ideas from its own experience. That's how this kind of stuff works. China is delivering J-10Cs on a very tight schedule due to its close relationship with Pakistan at the cost of its own production slots. This is not about making money off PAF as a couple of people alluded to up the thread. This is about helping a friend out and then helping each other out.



Deino said:


> No, the regular WS-10B has 2only“ 132 kN


Deino, did you see some recent source that pointed to this? I admit that I haven't tracked things closely in the recent years. Back 5 years ago, I remember a lot of rumbling coming out that the first major improved variant for J-10/flankers coming out was going to have 12% greater thrust than 12.5t of the first iteration of production WS-10. Which would point to 14t or about 137kN. Based on the time frame, the first batch of J-10Cs that received WS-10B should be getting that variant. The version they built for J-20 may or may not have greater thrust. Unfortunately, with the death of CJDBY, it's hard to find a good place to read up on this.

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## MH.Yang

Trailer23 said:


> That is correct, the PL-15 is obviously far better OR superior to its Export Variant, the PL-15E in range.
> 
> Range (reported):
> PL-15 - 200 to 300km (in use by the PLAAF)
> PL-15*E* - 145km
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Salza - so there is no reason why PAF would want to go for the "E" variant in the not-so-distant future.


The PL15 cannot have 300 km, and the PL2X has 300+km. But PL2X is obviously used to hunt large aircraft, I don't think it can hunt Rafale. 
And for the time being, only J16 can carry PL2X, and there is no photo to prove that J10C can use PL2X.

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## untitled

Trailer23 said:


> Lets celebrate *100 Pages* of _Sheikh Rasheed_ & his deliberate spill that has led to so much interest* in so many parts of the World.


1000 pages can be easily achieved by 23rd march


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## denel

waz said:


> Does anyone know what roughly the engine overhaul interval time is for the WS-10B?
> @Shotgunner51
> @Deino


waz - if we are to take the AL31 as a base figure; it was 1000hrs. If any addition hrs are to be had, it is bonus. But given where the chinese engine tech is right now; i would tamper my expectation to be lower. What i had been hearing is they tend to swap out the engines regularly because of very low MTBO; that means - the big question with PAF opt for the Russian engines simply because it is a proven entity and existing relationship for RD93s?

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## MH.Yang

serenity said:


> Global Security has some very outdated information as well and others are from unreputable sources too.
> 
> PL-15 is roughly 150km range as usual NATO range calculation method I am guessing. This is proven by the PL-15E export version having declared range of 145km or so. Of course all serious military nations understate their missile range and USA and China definitely both tend to understate because overstating is suicidal. Russia does a lot of overstating due to needing to sell many.
> 
> So my guess is PL-15E maybe has 170km or so range who knows maybe 200km absolute maximum depending on the country that buys PL-15E. We should remember that PL-15E is just a name holder and not actual missile. Depending on sensitivity and likelihood of war of the purchasing country and who the war would be against, PL-15 sold may change. Half is given internal systems and also half can be controlled by software to reduce or enhance range like a speed limiter on cars in some countries for example.
> 
> I do not believe PL-15 is 300km as Global Security suggests it might be. They are themselves either guessing or based on information that is guessing or misquoted and misunderstood. Possibly confused it with other PL-xx projects that have been revealed or not.


I heard the PL15E doesn't have a dual pulse engine. If that's true, the gap between PL15E and PL15 won't be too small. Of course, this also means that there is a big gap in cost. 
And the dual pulse AIM260 being tested in the USA is said to have a range of 260km, and the PL15 is also a dual pulse.

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## untitled

The Eagle said:


> . I am not claiming anything in regard to AL-31 ToT


What are the odds that Azm will be powered by the same engine as J-10? Unless of course Azm is just a rebranded FC-35


----------



## MH.Yang

The Eagle said:


> I am quoting this post as a reference (not directed to @messiach ) to say that members totally in shock or surprise or even denying such with plain face without putting much in reply, should understand that not to take everything for word to word on Internet. There are always some sort of open ended statements which may be the very reason that leads to so much speculations or even call it a rumor.
> 
> Secondly, newbies totally unaware of previous discussions on different threads regarding cooperation & NGF/AZM buildup will have to go through all the pages and understand the backdrop of such a statement.
> 
> It was said before and discussed that PAC/PAF is working closely with friendly countries & the new friendship is formed as well. That is infact not easy to sum up in two lines but just look at new regional geopolitics & strategical changes. Pakistan-China-Russia & Turkiye are already if not may be, cooperating closely and have read the situation before hand about future eventualities. It was said that PAC will be working closely with partners/friends to uplift defence programs. There are lot of things happening behind closed doors.
> 
> From in-house AESA production to modern AAM of our own with the help of friends; to AZM and tech absorption are well worked out. We might not be very useful for these sort of developments given the so much lag in past and the secrecy around defence projects but it doesn't mean that nothing is happening.
> 
> Whether this ToT means a total transfer or maintenance but on other hand, why not to pay attention as what really derived from AL-31 power plant for China? As I said before and I will repeat myself in humble opinion that IF, J-10C is not the only equipment/capability coming to Pakistan. The same statement exist on this thread way before above quoted post and it was merely my observation and how I see certain things. I am taking full responsibility of these words because this is not some sort of insider news or a leak but what I really observed throughout such kind of acquisition processes from the past and an upgraded mindset with all the hard-work for modernization of Defence Production procedure and advance ourselves towards self reliance. I also mentioned before that look at how China advanced in many of defence production fields with the help of Russia but that all came after procurement and years of experience of those platforms.
> 
> We will not buy anything to merely catch a fish. The more of emphasis is on learn to how to catch the fish which includes everything from experience, knowledge, tactics to manufacturing & producing the relevant equipment. May be this is not about exact AL-31 engine and I wouldn't comment further as whatever I may know is purely for own knowledge & satisfaction to believe that we are excelling well and far ahead of an adversary can really think about.
> 
> Just look at Thunder program in it all self. Then we announced to go for 5th Gen under AZM. Look at Milgem program off the shelf purchase & Jinnah Class built in house - Look at Type 054-AP for PN and producing few locally. Just look at Augusta 90B upgradation - Look at PN acquiring Hangoor Class Subs and preparing to have in-house production as well. Why we merely disclosed the working on hypersonic CM by PN? Didn't we discuss that PAF will be having our own BVR and I say that it might be something like between PL-12 to PL-XX in future. What you think that those busy bees at AWC are just sitting idle? There is lot of progress being made in different areas and if told openly, I am sure many Pakistanis will deny those in offending manners given our mindset of past by believing that Pakistan ain't producing nothing or not even trying to self reliance in view of political myths.
> 
> Above are few examples in short for some people here about how the development may take place. I am not claiming anything in regard to AL-31 ToT but one should not limit him/herself merely to words being said in above quoted post and keep asking for proof or any sense which is more of self issue. If you are looking at an NGF after 15 years, that means you will have to stepping up the game already. It may sound ridiculous by instant reading but there might be few things not said openly.
> 
> That argument of large wingspan of Block-III is valid compare to Block-II wingspan. Then speaking of changes in rear fuselage may sound false but none of us have any clear image & all side view to compare as to how these changes taking place. For example, just look at sensor placements & then inner changes which will not be visible for anyone as of yet or unless some official speaks so. So conclusively for me, not everything is taken merely for the words about it. Keep your mind open and exhaust all the possibilities before a final say and even resorting ourselves to belittle someone having far more credit on subject than most of us. Agree to disagree and counter the arguments without questioning the personality.
> 
> 
> You can either agree or disagree but you shouldn't be offending like that. I am really sorry but ethics & behaviour be maintained on the Forum. No one is forced to remain present here and no one is shoving any information down the throat of others. Be respectful and that's all I mean to say.


Has Pakistan considered producing SD10 by itself? Now that China has opened up the export of PL15, it should agree to sell the production line and technology of SD10. Has Pakistan considered this direction of development?

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## SIPRA

Trailer23 said:


> Lets celebrate *100 Pages* of _Sheikh Rasheed_ & his deliberate spill that has led to so much interest* in so many parts of the World.



Someone shall inform "Tully" about his popularity.


----------



## untitled

MH.Yang said:


> Has Pakistan considered producing SD10 by itself? Now that China has opened up the export of PL15, it should agree to sell the production line and technology of SD10.


When it comes to BVR missiles, PAF is pretty much covered for now. It's PL-10 like missiles which PAF needs


----------



## luciferdd

MH.Yang said:


> China has a precedent of selling its own version to Pakistan, and PL15 technology is not as sensitive as it was a few years ago. USA has begun testing AIM260.


It's hard to believe that will happen,unless PLAAF already has something new that is totally different to PL-15 from seeker to range.

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## Bleek

Pakistan is one big marketing platform for China. 

Imagine the international reaction to a J-10C taking out a Rafale.

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## Shotgunner51

untitled said:


> What are the odds that Azm will be powered by the same engine as J-10? Unless of course Azm is just a rebranded FC-35


FC-31/J-35 is a twin medium thrust design, two WS-13E (or equivalent) are used, not WS-10.

Project AZM I'm not sure.

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## MH.Yang

luciferdd said:


> It's hard to believe that will happen,unless PLAAF already has something new that is totally different to PL-15 from seeker to range.



This is the first time that China has sold 4G fighters in service, we need to show our strength to other potential customers as soon as possible. PL15 enables us to ensure the advertising effect, and the advantages of PL15E are not obvious. 
Moreover, USA has used a dual pulse engine on AIM260. We should develop the next generation as soon as possible to regain our advantages, rather than being too conservative.

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## Tair-Lahoti

FHD Chinese documentary on J10C in English dubbing.

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## Titanium100

Shotgunner51 said:


> Project AZM I'm not sure.



Will probably end up with a Turkish engine in the nearly future is my prediction


----------



## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> No, it only means we have yet another unconfirmed and highly unlikely rumour. Nothing more, nothing less ... but for a car-seller this is probably beyond its understanding.
> 
> More interesting however is, this all is from a person with a great record of credibility before her pause but a not-so well one after her return.
> 
> Her claims, the JF-17 Block 3 would have dramatic changes on the rear fuselage, a wing with a wider span and different aspect ration - what so far has either been proven wrong or is still not explained and no-one but her sees these changes - is a testimony to this: Claiming something that is barely believable, ignore all explanations and avoid any discussion and then sit aside and watch the fun, how the discussion erupts.
> 
> And that you believe such claims - most likely only since I and others rate them as BS - is also more than understandable. *As long as you can spit BS on others you hate,* it's fine, but a person, who "agrees on all accounts" that the Block 3 will use an Italian engine and fire AMRAAMs has anyway lost all credibility here.
> 
> So why should anyone care what you say... ?



Son,

To hate someone---that person has to be somebody of some significance.


You are a nobody---. Tell me one thing---what is your claim of fame on sino def or on this forum---other than count when the aircraft came into production and some pictures of aircraft---.

You have no rudimentary knowledge of weapons procurement, defense related deals or technical know how related to engineering.

Why does anyone need to satisfy your curiosity----you are not a player---you are basically a nobody---SQ8 kisses your ar-se---for reasons better know to him.

Not a single post of yours has given out any knowledgeable answer about technicalities, the making of fighter aircraft or defense deal making---or anything about defense.

You have always insulted pakistan indirectly---always claiming pakistan has no funds---pakistan will not get anything---you have always degrade pakistan on sinodef forum and yet the @WebMaster is keeping you alive on this forum.

Name one projection for Pakistan that you had made and it has come true---.

The Type 054 is about to berth at karachi port---the subs are almost ready---the J10 on the way in.

As you stated that pakistan is a 'beggar nation ' on sino def and will get nothing---pakistan got everything that it wanted.

If you had any shame in you---you would not show your face on thiss forum---.

If pakistanis and SQ8 and @WebMaster had any character in them---you would not be on this forum.

My question to you again---what do you bring to this forum that you are here in your position SPYING for information.

Is the @WebMaster a spy as well---keeping a pakistani name but running this forum to find information?

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Son,
> 
> To hate someone---that person has to be somebody of some significance.
> 
> 
> You are a nobody---. Tell me one thing---what is your claim of fame on sino def or on this forum---other than count when the aircraft came into production and some pictures of aircraft---.
> 
> You have no rudimentary knowledge of weapons procurement, defense related deals or technical know how related to engineering.
> 
> Why does anyone need to satisfy your curiosity----you are not a player---you are basically a nobody---SQ8 kisses your ar-se---for reasons better know to him.
> 
> Not a single post of yours has given out any knowledgeable answer about technicalities, the making of fighter aircraft or defense deal making---or anything about defense.
> 
> You have always insulted pakistan indirectly---always claiming pakistan has no funds---pakistan will not get anything---you have always degrade pakistan on sinodef forum and yet the @WebMaster is keeping you alive on this forum.
> 
> Name one projection for Pakistan that you had made and it has come true---.
> 
> The Type 054 is about to berth at karachi port---the subs are almost ready---the J10 on the way in.
> 
> As you stated that pakistan is a 'beggar nation ' on sino def and will get nothing---pakistan got everything that it wanted.
> 
> If you had any shame in you---you would not show your face on thiss forum---.
> 
> If pakistanis and SQ8 and @WebMaster had any character in them---you would not be on this forum.
> 
> My question to you again---what do you bring to this forum that you are here in your position SPYING for information.
> 
> Is the @WebMaster a spy as well---keeping a pakistani name but running this forum to find information?




Do you feel better now, I heard to have Tourette's syndrome is sometimes quite hard.

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## Rafi

luciferdd said:


> It's hard to believe that will happen,unless PLAAF already has something new that is totally different to PL-15 from seeker to range.



Yes China has moved on.......that is why the PL15 has become available...nuff said.

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## MastanKhan

luciferdd said:


> It's hard to believe that will happen,unless PLAAF already has something new that is totally different to PL-15 from seeker to range.



Hi,

That is incorrect.

China has realized that without pakistan covering its flank---it is in deep sh-it.

Pakistan will get chinese tier 1 equipment if it needs it and if it wants it and when it wants it---.

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## SQ8

Goenitz said:


> Thanx bro.. that 180s latency is ridiculous now but was the best at that time like from fighter to AD.
> 
> Anyway, I asked that question bcz of Chinese centric system. I think all th radars are made by the same company so perhaps that is possible such as direct link from AWACS to the AD unit. But remembering Sajjad Haider interview I think that centricity already existed through network centre.


The centricity has been there since project crystal in late 70s. Radar manufacturers are not as relevant in this discussion as are transmission protocols and compatibility. That is why you have common standards such as Link-16(no different than GSM or CDMA as a standard) but the PAF has gone for Link-17 which began developing next to my desk. It is a hybrid of link-16 and Link-22 that allows it to absorb and transmit data from western Link-16 systems (F-16, SAAB and others) while being able to Also interact with the JF-17 and ZDK and now the J-10C. With the JF-17 it has additional features in terms of robustness and those apply elsewhere where custom hardware capabilities able to support this.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> @WebMaster ,
> 
> Why is @Deino a member of this forum. He has never had a nice thing to say about pakistan---.On sino def forum he always had insulting things to say about pakistan.
> 
> 
> He never missed a chance to insult pakistan's inability to pay for weapons.
> 
> This person degraded pakistan every which way and you have him as a senior member.
> 
> He just recently insulted and degrade one of our very respected and esteemed member 'Messiach' and YOU DID NOT do anything to top him.
> 
> What a shame.


Mastan,

Criticism is not the same as insults. If there is anything in particular that you find insulting, there is a Report tab under posts. You can describe your report there and it would be looked into.

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## araz

denel said:


> waz - if we are to take the AL31 as a base figure; it was 1000hrs. If any addition hrs are to be had, it is bonus. But given where the chinese engine tech is right now; i would tamper my expectation to be lower. What i had been hearing is they tend to swap out the engines regularly because of very low MTBO; that means - the big question with PAF opt for the Russian engines simply because it is a proven entity and existing relationship for RD93s?


Thank you very much for pointing this out. Due to secrecy we actually do not know what the MTBO of WS10B vs AL31 is. What are the Chinese doing to ensure they maintain the reliability of the WS10s? Why did PAF continue with the 93s instead of adopting the WS13?(I do not think PAF would have hesitated if reliability and MTBO of WS 13 was equal/better than RD 93s) Does anyone here know what the relative answers are. Sure the Chinese have not bought a single AL engine since 2017 but what is their production numbers vs their local demand?(we have recently seen a lot of J10s standing outside the factory, allegedly waiting engines) Is it a factor why the Chinese allowed AL31 to be fitted into J10? I am merely pointing out some of the complexities in trying to sift through information in the light of secrecy of the order that exists in PLAAF and now in PAF. Heck we still have not had a DIRECT answer that j10s are coming!!!(I am aware of the indirect use of words and have no doubts personally in the matter). 
@TP and @Deino are the Chinese buffs of airplanes but I doubt even they can give you answers on what these numbers are. So the question remains is there a possibility of the AL31 in PAF J10s. 
On the other hand there are counter questions about why PAF has waited so long if it wanted the J10 with AL31.
The botttom line is no one knows for sure and those that do are not saying. Let us wait and see.
No disrespect to anyone , However these questions are puzzling. I am happy for more knowledgeable members to give me an answer and would happily change my views if the answers are logical.
A

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## siegecrossbow

araz said:


> Thank you very much for pointing this out. Due to secrecy we actually do not know what the MTBO of WS10B vs AL31 is. What are the Chinese doing to ensure they maintain the reliability of the WS10s? Why did PAF continue with the 93s instead of adopting the WS13?(I do not think PAF would have hesitated if reliability and MTBO of WS 13 was equal/better than RD 93s) Does anyone here know what the relative answers are. Sure the Chinese have not bought a single AL engine since 2017 but what is their production numbers vs their local demand?(*we have recently seen a lot of J10s standing outside the factory, allegedly waiting engines*) Is it a factor why the Chinese allowed AL31 to be fitted into J10? I am merely pointing out some of the complexities in trying to sift through information in the light of secrecy of the order that exists in PLAAF and now in PAF. Heck we still have not had a DIRECT answer that j10s are coming!!!(I am aware of the indirect use of words and have no doubts personally in the matter).
> @TP and @Deino are the Chinese buffs of airplanes but I doubt even they can give you answers on what these numbers are. So the question remains is there a possibility of the AL31 in PAF J10s.
> On the other hand there are counter questions about why PAF has waited so long if it wanted the J10 with AL31.
> The botttom line is no one knows for sure and those that do are not saying. Let us wait and see.
> No disrespect to anyone , However these questions are puzzling. I am happy for more knowledgeable members to give me an answer and would happily change my views if the answers are logical.
> A



That was February 2021 and even back then all of them had their engines. There is no repeat of the engineless J-11B debacle, that much could be assured.

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## messiach

Ok.



Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> @messiach claims on PDF:
> 1) Pakistan is working on indeginous ramjet powered AAM.
> 2) J10 coming with Al 31 engine
> 3)Local assembly of AESA radars.
> 4) Russian support for NGFA.
> 
> Except point no.3, others are just unbelievable.

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## PakShaheen79

ARMalik said:


> I am looking for another 50 pages at least.


Don't insult Su-35 or AL-31 Turbofans ... make that 150 minimum.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

luciferdd said:


> It's hard to believe that will happen,unless PLAAF already has something new that is totally different to PL-15 from seeker to range.


It maybe a good idea to start thinking Sino-Pak relationship is heading towards a US-UK type special relationship.

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## siegecrossbow

Rafi said:


> Yes China has moved on.......that is why the PL15 has become available...nuff said.



From what I've heard the new missile doesn't improve on the PL-15 too much in terms of range but is much lighter and compact. They could fit six of them into the J-20's main weaponsbay.

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## SQ8

Deino said:


> Do you feel better now, I know to have Tourette's syndrome is sometimes quite hard.


Forgetting the geriatric ranting truck salesman who is running out of his preparation H - The problem with information sources for people formerly associated with the Pakistani defense circles such as @messiach is that information isn’t always delivered exactly in terms of where a project stands in terms of development nor is it delivered always through the right individual or context. I had highlighted this earlier in another thread as well which really is the exact same process as any researcher. Except the bar for a scholarly publications is different to say a defense forum. All of the following is something you are likely aware of but just repeating it for others.I am not going to disclose opsec compromising data to anyone no longer in the loop or provide complete details.

After all, the Mig-25 was exaggerated until it actually landed in Japan. The M-50 bounder was thought to be a short stubby aircraft until better pictures emerged and the theories surrounding the F-117 and Aurora are numerous.

I oft repeat the following examples because they are both very old and also examples of unbelievable ideas back in their times: back in 1997 the sanctioned and barely fourth gen airforce Pakistan was studying a neurological link simulator for the F-16 which would have bald pilots experiencing physical sensations such as G’s and attitude through stimulation of their nerves - it might have gotten laughing responses right?. at that time I spoke to the person involved with that and can verify the source - but since I am anonymous how do you verify me?

Nothing came of that project but it went to a few dollars spent. The same way a Mirage was modified to get a radar cross section below 1sqm but again - the source was the former head of Kamra who passed away recently. But, I am anonymous and no proof of that project exists at all.

Now if I heard from the brother of a F-16 pilot that they were practicing BVR shots when they were on the F-7PG I would take that with a bit of salt because a the brother doesn’t understand the subject matter as well and what context did the pilot tell his brother regarding it?
Turns out the pilot was referring to simulating the shots but that did not mean the F-7PG has a BVR weapon(but do have a monocle sight whose origins or use is a mystery).

Take it further to a Army Armored corps person mentioning something regarding the Pakistan Navy Supersonic AsHM program - that veracity of the source’s statements keeps getting more and more thin.
My uncle was in the Navy and in mid 2001 he was adamant that the JF-17 had already flown in Pakistan and he saw it himself. I kept arguing with him that it hasn’t since its out of chengdu but he kept saying he has seen it fly himself but wouldn’t mention where - what does one do with that statement? Regardless of his position and reputation besides the relationship I don’t think he was being accurate.

As a more personal example - In my role as PLM I came up with the idea of a low cost game chamger device - built the business case for it, presented it but my VP shot it down due to higher priority projects and lack of funds. Now as I was brainstorming it once while on a field visit with one of my account executives I mentioned the idea to him and he got excited even though I mentioned we are just thinking about it. A few months in one of his customers asked me where that project stood as they were interested even though it was shelved before a single penny was allocated.

So even if a concept was thought up(Ramjet powered AAM , suicide gyrocopter drone or otherwise) and shared with someone - it doesn’t necessarily mean it went beyond the drawing or even creating a folder on some person’s pc stage nor does it mean it doesn’t exist however we cannot verify it.
Definitely more formalized for an organization like the PAF but I still see the same dilution of information happening.

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## maverick1977

Any sneak peak pics of Pakistani J10Cs?


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## araz

siegecrossbow said:


> That was February 2021 and even back then all of them had their engines. There is no repeat of the engineless J-11B debacle, that much could be assured.


Fine. But my point still remains in tbat no one knows those figures to be able to give a constrjctive judgement. As soon as those figures come out we will know. I expect the Cbinese to eventually surpass tbe Russians in all aspects of engine manufacturing, but their manufacturi g is-still in its infancy compared to Russia, USA, France etc.
A


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## Gripen9

SQ8 said:


> The centricity has been there since project crystal in late 70s. Radar manufacturers are not as relevant in this discussion as are transmission protocols and compatibility. That is why you have common standards such as Link-16(no different than GSM or CDMA as a standard) but the PAF has gone for Link-17 which began developing next to my desk. It is a hybrid of link-16 and Link-22 that allows it to absorb and transmit data from western Link-16 systems (F-16, SAAB and others) while being able to Also interact with the JF-17 and ZDK and now the J-10C. With the JF-17 it has additional features in terms of robustness and those apply elsewhere where custom hardware capabilities able to support this.


Project Crystal was acquisition of MPDRs was it not? Or did it encompass the whole automation of PakADGE or which Hughes & Siemens where a part of?


----------



## araz

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> It maybe a good idea to start thinking Sino-Pak relationship is heading towards a US-UK type special relationship.


Let us hope it does not turn into a US Canada relationship!. We need to stop relying on others and making an effort to step out of our poverty and into financial stability so we can develop relations as equals.
A

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## JamD

SQ8 said:


> Forgetting the geriatric ranting truck salesman who is running out of his preparation H - The problem with information sources for people formerly associated with the Pakistani defense circles such as @messiach is that information isn’t always delivered exactly in terms of where a project stands in terms of development nor is it delivered always through the right individual or context. I had highlighted this earlier in another thread as well which really is the exact same process as any researcher. Except the bar for a scholarly publications is different to say a defense forum. All of the following is something you are likely aware of but just repeating it for others.I am not going to disclose opsec compromising data to anyone no longer in the loop or provide complete details.
> 
> After all, the Mig-25 was exaggerated until it actually landed in Japan. The M-50 bounder was thought to be a short stubby aircraft until better pictures emerged and the theories surrounding the F-117 and Aurora are numerous.
> 
> I oft repeat the following examples because they are both very old and also examples of unbelievable ideas back in their times: back in 1997 the sanctioned and barely fourth gen airforce Pakistan was studying a neurological link simulator for the F-16 which would have bald pilots experiencing physical sensations such as G’s and attitude through stimulation of their nerves - it might have gotten laughing responses right?. at that time I spoke to the person involved with that and can verify the source - but since I am anonymous how do you verify me?
> 
> Nothing came of that project but it went to a few dollars spent. The same way a Mirage was modified to get a radar cross section below 1sqm but again - the source was the former head of Kamra who passed away recently. But, I am anonymous and no proof of that project exists at all.
> 
> Now if I heard from the brother of a F-16 pilot that they were practicing BVR shots when they were on the F-7PG I would take that with a bit of salt because a the brother doesn’t understand the subject matter as well and what context did the pilot tell his brother regarding it?
> Turns out the pilot was referring to simulating the shots but that did not mean the F-7PG has a BVR weapon(but do have a monocle sight whose origins or use is a mystery).
> 
> Take it further to a Army Armored corps person mentioning something regarding the Pakistan Navy Supersonic AsHM program - that veracity of the source’s statements keeps getting more and more thin.
> My uncle was in the Navy and in mid 2001 he was adamant that the JF-17 had already flown in Pakistan and he saw it himself. I kept arguing with him that it hasn’t since its out of chengdu but he kept saying he has seen it fly himself but wouldn’t mention where - what does one do with that statement? Regardless of his position and reputation besides the relationship I don’t think he was being accurate.
> 
> As a more personal example - In my role as PLM I came up with the idea of a low cost game chamger device - built the business case for it, presented it but my VP shot it down due to higher priority projects and lack of funds. Now as I was brainstorming it once while on a field visit with one of my account executives I mentioned the idea to him and he got excited even though I mentioned we are just thinking about it. A few months in one of his customers asked me where that project stood as they were interested even though it was shelved before a single penny was allocated.
> 
> So even if a concept was thought up(Ramjet powered AAM , suicide gyrocopter drone or otherwise) and shared with someone - it doesn’t necessarily mean it went beyond the drawing or even creating a folder on some person’s pc stage nor does it mean it doesn’t exist however we cannot verify it.
> Definitely more formalized for an organization like the PAF but I still see the same dilution of information happening.


This post should be required reading for everyone that joins this forum - especially those that make a career out of rehashing forum rumors as youtube videos. But I guess they don't care for accuracy of information.

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## siegecrossbow

araz said:


> Let us hope it does not turn into a US Canada relationship!. We need to stop relying on others and making an effort to step out of our poverty and into financial stability so we can develop relations as equals.
> A



Sure. Stuff like radar/missile performance can also be unveiled in due time. A lot of the stuff is opaque due to PLAAF secrecy right now.


----------



## SQ8

Gripen9 said:


> Project Crystal was acquisition of MPDRs was it not? Or did it encompass the whole automation of PakADGE or which Hughes & Siemens where a part of?


More on project Crystal:
https://quwa.org/2016/03/15/pakistans-c4isr-part-2-land-airborne-surveillance-systems/

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## Rafi

siegecrossbow said:


> From what I've heard the new missile doesn't improve on the PL-15 too much in terms of range but is much lighter and compact. They could fit six of them into the J-20's main weaponsbay.



From what I have heard the new missile will be part of the next gen of AAW.

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## ARMalik

serenity said:


> *Messiach has a history of providing false and inaccurate rumors.*


----------



## MultaniGuy

ejaz007 said:


> *Pakistan confirms Chinese ‘Firebird’ fighter acquisition*
> By Usman Ansari
> Monday, Jan 3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Four Chengdu J-10 fighter jets of China's Bayi flight demonstration team perform at a media preview of the Singapore Airshow on Feb. 9, 2020. (Mike Yeo/Staff)
> ISLAMABAD — Pakistan has officially confirmed its long-speculated acquisition of the Chinese J-10C Firebird fighter jet, which is slated to arrive in time to take part in the March 23 Pakistan Day Parade.
> Rasheed Ahmed, Pakistan’s interior minister, told the media last week the country acquired 25 aircraft. He linked them as a counter to India’s growing Rafale fleet.
> 
> He did not detail the value of the deal, and a source familiar with Pakistan’s military acquisition programs said he does not know if the fighters were “purchased or loaned to Pakistan’s Air Force.”
> However, the source said, he is “more inclined to the latter, as [the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force] may have given a few units to the Pakistan Air Force to test on a delayed cost basis.”
> Richard Fisher, a senior fellow at the International Assessment and Strategy Center, told Defense News there “is imagery suggesting that finished J-10Cs at the Chengdu factory are ready for near-immediate transfer,” referring to a manufacturing location in China.
> 
> Pakistan’s interest in the J-10 spans more than 10 years. The country was first interested in the FC-20 export variant of the single-seat J-10A. This was part of the wider Armed Forces Development Plan 2015, derailed by a lack of funding under the 2008-2013 Pakistan Peoples Party administration.
> Pakistan’s interest in the FC-20 was partially driven by a need to complement its F-16, when further acquisition of that program appeared unlikely.
> Pakistan also reportedly examined acquiring the Russian Su-35 Flanker-E, potentially to help better cover naval operations in the Arabian Sea.
> When speculation first arose of a Pakistani J-10C purchase in early 2021, it was linked with one of the Pakistan Air Force squadrons based in Karachi.
> 
> China’s naval air arm, the PLANAF, operates the earlier J-10AH and J-10SH Firebird variants from shore as multirole aircraft. Though unconfirmed, Pakistan may operate its aircraft similarly.
> Pakistan’s Firebirds are believed to be the J-10CE export variant of the latest J-10C, featuring an active electronically scanned array radar and long-range PL-15 air-to-air missiles. Twenty-five aircraft could equip two squadrons of 12 aircraft each.
> Royal United Services Institute airspace analyst Justin Bronk said the J-10C will significantly boost Pakistan’s air power.
> “The J-10C is a potent modern multirole light fighter, which represents a rough Chinese equivalent to a modern F-16 Block 60/70,″ he said.
> 
> However, he noted, it’s not quite on a par with the Rafale.
> “The AESA radar and access to the long-ranged PL-15 air-to-air missile make it a potentially serious long-range threat to non-stealth aircraft, although it might still struggle as a counter to India’s Rafale at long ranges. The latter’s superior kinematic performance and access to the Meteor missile [provide] a decent counter to the PL-15,″ Bronk said. “The J-10C is also unlikely to be able to match the Rafale for electronic warfare capabilities.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan confirms Chinese ‘Firebird’ fighter acquisition
> 
> 
> Pakistan has officially confirmed its long-speculated acquisition of the Chinese J-10C “Firebird” fighter, which will arrive in time to take part in the March 23 Pakistan Day parade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defensenews.com


It may not be on par with Rafale on certain aspects.

*BUT at least China is trustworthy and a good ally.*

The west are hypocrites and usually comes with conditions. Personally I hope Pakistan never buys military hardware from the west again.
Better to do joint-ventures with the Chinese on everything.

The Indians are wetting their dhotis, because they are getting a western product made by white people. lol. So naturally they think they have superior technology.

This is not necessarily true.

As China's aerospace technology mature, Chinese tech will eventually be on par with western technologies.

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## TNT

MastanKhan said:


> Son,
> 
> To hate someone---that person has to be somebody of some significance.
> 
> 
> You are a nobody---. Tell me one thing---what is your claim of fame on sino def or on this forum---other than count when the aircraft came into production and some pictures of aircraft---.
> 
> You have no rudimentary knowledge of weapons procurement, defense related deals or technical know how related to engineering.
> 
> Why does anyone need to satisfy your curiosity----you are not a player---you are basically a nobody---SQ8 kisses your ar-se---for reasons better know to him.
> 
> Not a single post of yours has given out any knowledgeable answer about technicalities, the making of fighter aircraft or defense deal making---or anything about defense.
> 
> You have always insulted pakistan indirectly---always claiming pakistan has no funds---pakistan will not get anything---you have always degrade pakistan on sinodef forum and yet the @WebMaster is keeping you alive on this forum.
> 
> Name one projection for Pakistan that you had made and it has come true---.
> 
> The Type 054 is about to berth at karachi port---the subs are almost ready---the J10 on the way in.
> 
> As you stated that pakistan is a 'beggar nation ' on sino def and will get nothing---pakistan got everything that it wanted.
> 
> If you had any shame in you---you would not show your face on thiss forum---.
> 
> If pakistanis and SQ8 and @WebMaster had any character in them---you would not be on this forum.
> 
> My question to you again---what do you bring to this forum that you are here in your position SPYING for information.
> 
> Is the @WebMaster a spy as well---keeping a pakistani name but running this forum to find information?



Lolz the same questions can be asked from.u, who r u and what r ur credentials? Yeah sold alot of mehrans. Whats ur contribution to the forum, other than spreading dumb exaggerated fanboy stuff? He is a researcher and have published work. Typical Pakistani mentality where everyone thinks of himself as expert in every field.

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## flameboard

The sources seem questionable. I doubt Pakistan has much to gain from a J-10 acquisition.


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## MultaniGuy

flameboard said:


> The sources seem questionable. I doubt Pakistan has much to gain from a J-10 acquisition.


It has already been confirmed that Pakistan is getting J-10Cs.

You can google it on Google. Even a Forbes article has written about this topic.


----------



## SQ8

TNT said:


> Lolz the same questions can be asked from.u, who r u and what r ur credentials? Yeah sold alot of mehrans. Whats ur contribution to the forum, other than spreading dumb exaggerated fanboy stuff? He is a researcher and have published work. *Typical Pakistani mentality where everyone thinks of himself as expert in every field.*


The only nation mentioned in the Quran to try and act this way were those that were punished later.

Ironically, the big fallback Bademian is trying when comparing himself to the prophet is that while he truly was a very learned man and provided knowledge or direction by Allah of events directly he was also freely pushing muslims to acquire knowledge from any and all sources.Why would he say so even if he was the penultimate human being?
Why seek consul and advice from companions on a variety of subjects?

My suggestion is to leave Bademian alone, no need to engage just as you wont engage him in real life. There are ignore buttons available in PDF - let him do whatever he wants to gain some glory and recognition which he desires more than anything while the rest of us can pick and choose quality content.

As far as the J-10 is concerned, lets focus on that and ignore content that you disagree with and cannot convince another of their PoV. We will get more information as the days unfold either way - and many times unlikely predictions do end up happening.

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## Gripen9

SQ8 said:


> More on project Crystal:
> https://quwa.org/2016/03/15/pakistans-c4isr-part-2-land-airborne-surveillance-systems/


Yeah I lived through it. My father was part of the MPDR evaluation, then commanded one of the CRC wings. I still have a "Project Crystal" coffee mug somewhere  But usually when people talked about it, it referred more to the MPDR acquisition versus PakADGE upgrade including tipsies.

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## Aesterix

JamD said:


> This post should be required reading for everyone that joins this forum - especially those that make a career out of rehashing forum rumors as youtube videos. But I guess they don't care for accuracy of information.


True. On YouTube, accuracy doesn't sell. Sensationalism does.
I have 11 years old YouTube channel, and I post verified info only. I get less than a thousand views per video. 
New kids who post any rumour, get many thousands of views.
So public doesn't care. They just want some form of assurance that Pakistan has strong defence and growing. No matter from where that assurance comes from and even if false.


SQ8 said:


> More on project Crystal:
> https://quwa.org/2016/03/15/pakistans-c4isr-part-2-land-airborne-surveillance-systems/


Irrelevant, but PAF started working on the c4I system on 1977.
By now it's multi layered and quite efficient. 
Then how Indians could come all the way to Balakot in Feb 2019?

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## SQ8

Gripen9 said:


> Yeah I lived through it. My father was part of the MPDR evaluation, then commanded one of the CRC wings. I still have a "Project Crystal" coffee mug somewhere  But usually when people talked about it, it referred more to the MPDR acquisition versus *PakADGE upgrade including tipsies.*


Somewhere on that ACdre Shigri and others were involved. No idea where that story went from there.

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## DocEinstein

SQ8 said:


> Forgetting the geriatric ranting truck salesman who is running out of his preparation H - The problem with information sources for people formerly associated with the Pakistani defense circles such as @messiach is that information isn’t always delivered exactly in terms of where a project stands in terms of development nor is it delivered always through the right individual or context. I had highlighted this earlier in another thread as well which really is the exact same process as any researcher. Except the bar for a scholarly publications is different to say a defense forum. All of the following is something you are likely aware of but just repeating it for others.I am not going to disclose opsec compromising data to anyone no longer in the loop or provide complete details.
> 
> After all, the Mig-25 was exaggerated until it actually landed in Japan. The M-50 bounder was thought to be a short stubby aircraft until better pictures emerged and the theories surrounding the F-117 and Aurora are numerous.
> 
> I oft repeat the following examples because they are both very old and also examples of unbelievable ideas back in their times: back in 1997 the sanctioned and barely fourth gen airforce Pakistan was studying a neurological link simulator for the F-16 which would have bald pilots experiencing physical sensations such as G’s and attitude through stimulation of their nerves - it might have gotten laughing responses right?. at that time I spoke to the person involved with that and can verify the source - but since I am anonymous how do you verify me?
> 
> Nothing came of that project but it went to a few dollars spent. The same way a Mirage was modified to get a radar cross section below 1sqm but again - the source was the former head of Kamra who passed away recently. But, I am anonymous and no proof of that project exists at all.
> 
> Now if I heard from the brother of a F-16 pilot that they were practicing BVR shots when they were on the F-7PG I would take that with a bit of salt because a the brother doesn’t understand the subject matter as well and what context did the pilot tell his brother regarding it?
> Turns out the pilot was referring to simulating the shots but that did not mean the F-7PG has a BVR weapon(but do have a monocle sight whose origins or use is a mystery).
> 
> Take it further to a Army Armored corps person mentioning something regarding the Pakistan Navy Supersonic AsHM program - that veracity of the source’s statements keeps getting more and more thin.
> My uncle was in the Navy and in mid 2001 he was adamant that the JF-17 had already flown in Pakistan and he saw it himself. I kept arguing with him that it hasn’t since its out of chengdu but he kept saying he has seen it fly himself but wouldn’t mention where - what does one do with that statement? Regardless of his position and reputation besides the relationship I don’t think he was being accurate.
> 
> As a more personal example - In my role as PLM I came up with the idea of a low cost game chamger device - built the business case for it, presented it but my VP shot it down due to higher priority projects and lack of funds. Now as I was brainstorming it once while on a field visit with one of my account executives I mentioned the idea to him and he got excited even though I mentioned we are just thinking about it. A few months in one of his customers asked me where that project stood as they were interested even though it was shelved before a single penny was allocated.
> 
> So even if a concept was thought up(Ramjet powered AAM , suicide gyrocopter drone or otherwise) and shared with someone - it doesn’t necessarily mean it went beyond the drawing or even creating a folder on some person’s pc stage nor does it mean it doesn’t exist however we cannot verify it.
> Definitely more formalized for an organization like the PAF but I still see the same dilution of information happening.



This is the reason I visit PDF to read a rare few meaningful posts such as this.

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## SQ8

Aesterix said:


> True. On YouTube, accuracy doesn't sell. Sensationalism does.
> I have 11 years old YouTube channel, and I post verified info only. I get less than a thousand views per video.
> New kids who post any rumour, get many thousands of views.
> So public doesn't care. They just want some form of assurance that Pakistan has strong defence and growing. No matter from where that assurance comes from and even if false.
> 
> Irrelevant, but PAF started working on the c4I system on 1977.
> By now it's multi layered and quite efficient.
> *Then how Indians could come all the way to Balakot in Feb 2019*?


Not sure what irrelevance you refer to with what subject but your first paragraph talks on rumors and then you go ahead and make a statement worthy of the said 11 year old's youtube channel.
Please go through the multiples and multiples of accounts by both publicly and known individuals on where the Indians came and how far they went along with the geographic distance of Balakot from the border. 
Here's a hint - its less than 60km and an aircraft travelling at 380 knots covers 10km in 1 minute. So you could be flying 30 seconds distracted from launching your guided weapon and have breached another countries airspace some 5km without even realizing it. 
However, Balakot is very irrelevant to this thread in general.

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## Aesterix

SQ8 said:


> Not sure what irrelevance you refer to with what subject but your first paragraph talks on rumors and then you go ahead and make a statement worthy of the said 11 year old's youtube channel.
> Please go through the multiples and multiples of accounts by both publicly and known individuals on where the Indians came and how far they went along with the geographic distance of Balakot from the border.
> Here's a hint - its less than 60km and an aircraft travelling at 380 knots covers 10km in 1 minute. So you could be flying 30 seconds distracted from launching your guided weapon and have breached another countries airspace some 5km without even realizing it.
> However, Balakot is very irrelevant to this thread in general.


On the roll tonight 😅😅
Now I can make a YouTube video on Balakot intrusion after 2 years 😅


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## SQ8

Aesterix said:


> On the roll tonight 😅😅
> Now I can make a YouTube video on Balakot intrusion after 2 years 😅


You are free to express yourself based on that platforms contend moderation policies and effectiveness in enforcing them.


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## Pakistan Space Agency

The Indians are just baffled where Pakistan gets the money to buy military weapons from especially the J-10C. Indians believe only they can buy military weapons despite their country is well over half-a-trillion-dollars in external debt with loans also owed to the IMF ($23.3 billion).






Here's a table of the last 4 Federal Budgets of Pakistan under the incumbent PTI Government. X-Rates website used to convert Rupees to dollars as per the budget presented date. Please point out any errors.


*Financial Year**Presented**Budget (PKR)**Budget ($)**Source*2021-2022Friday 11/06/2021Rs 8.487 trillion$55 billionDawn News2020-2021Friday 12/06/2020Rs 7.2949 trillion$44 billionSamaa News2019-2020Tuesday 11/06/2019Rs 7.022 trillion$46 billionThe News2018-2019*Tuesday 18/09/2018Rs 5.385 trillion$44 billionThe Tribune Express
*2018-2019 budget was revised from 27 April 2018 to 18 September 2018 after the new PTI Government took over.

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## Aesterix

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> The Indians are just baffled where Pakistan gets the money to buy military weapons from especially the J-10C. Indians believe only they can buy military weapons despite their country is well over half-a-trillion-dollars in external debt with loans also owed to the IMF ($23.3 billion).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a table of the last 4 Federal Budgets of Pakistan under the incumbent PTI Government. X-Rates website used to convert Rupees to dollars as per the budget presented date. Please point out any errors.
> 
> 
> *Financial Year**Presented**Budget (PKR)**Budget ($)**Source*2021-2022Friday 11/06/2021Rs 8.487 trillion$55 billionDawn News2020-2021Friday 12/06/2020Rs 7.2949 trillion$44 billionSamaa News2019-2020Tuesday 11/06/2019Rs 7.022 trillion$46 billionThe News2018-2019*Tuesday 18/09/2018Rs 5.385 trillion$44 billionThe Tribune Express
> *2018-2019 budget was revised from 27 April 2018 to 18 September 2018 after the new PTI Government took over.


Indians and their superiority complex 😅😅


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## The Eagle

MH.Yang said:


> Has Pakistan considered producing SD10 by itself? Now that China has opened up the export of PL15, it should agree to sell the production line and technology of SD10. Has Pakistan considered this direction of development?



This one is different. Made in Pakistan. Indeed with help of friends.


untitled said:


> What are the odds that Azm will be powered by the same engine as J-10? Unless of course Azm is just a rebranded FC-35



May be, the base and foundation might be the same but a new engine x 2 for AZM NGF.

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## The Eagle

SQ8 said:


> Forgetting the geriatric ranting truck salesman who is running out of his preparation H - The problem with information sources for people formerly associated with the Pakistani defense circles such as @messiach is that information isn’t always delivered exactly in terms of where a project stands in terms of development nor is it delivered always through the right individual or context. I had highlighted this earlier in another thread as well which really is the exact same process as any researcher. Except the bar for a scholarly publications is different to say a defense forum. All of the following is something you are likely aware of but just repeating it for others.I am not going to disclose opsec compromising data to anyone no longer in the loop or provide complete details.
> 
> After all, the Mig-25 was exaggerated until it actually landed in Japan. The M-50 bounder was thought to be a short stubby aircraft until better pictures emerged and the theories surrounding the F-117 and Aurora are numerous.
> 
> I oft repeat the following examples because they are both very old and also examples of unbelievable ideas back in their times: back in 1997 the sanctioned and barely fourth gen airforce Pakistan was studying a neurological link simulator for the F-16 which would have bald pilots experiencing physical sensations such as G’s and attitude through stimulation of their nerves - it might have gotten laughing responses right?. at that time I spoke to the person involved with that and can verify the source - but since I am anonymous how do you verify me?
> 
> Nothing came of that project but it went to a few dollars spent. The same way a Mirage was modified to get a radar cross section below 1sqm but again - the source was the former head of Kamra who passed away recently. But, I am anonymous and no proof of that project exists at all.
> 
> Now if I heard from the brother of a F-16 pilot that they were practicing BVR shots when they were on the F-7PG I would take that with a bit of salt because a the brother doesn’t understand the subject matter as well and what context did the pilot tell his brother regarding it?
> Turns out the pilot was referring to simulating the shots but that did not mean the F-7PG has a BVR weapon(but do have a monocle sight whose origins or use is a mystery).
> 
> Take it further to a Army Armored corps person mentioning something regarding the Pakistan Navy Supersonic AsHM program - that veracity of the source’s statements keeps getting more and more thin.
> My uncle was in the Navy and in mid 2001 he was adamant that the JF-17 had already flown in Pakistan and he saw it himself. I kept arguing with him that it hasn’t since its out of chengdu but he kept saying he has seen it fly himself but wouldn’t mention where - what does one do with that statement? Regardless of his position and reputation besides the relationship I don’t think he was being accurate.
> 
> As a more personal example - In my role as PLM I came up with the idea of a low cost game chamger device - built the business case for it, presented it but my VP shot it down due to higher priority projects and lack of funds. Now as I was brainstorming it once while on a field visit with one of my account executives I mentioned the idea to him and he got excited even though I mentioned we are just thinking about it. A few months in one of his customers asked me where that project stood as they were interested even though it was shelved before a single penny was allocated.
> 
> So even if a concept was thought up(Ramjet powered AAM , suicide gyrocopter drone or otherwise) and shared with someone - it doesn’t necessarily mean it went beyond the drawing or even creating a folder on some person’s pc stage nor does it mean it doesn’t exist however we cannot verify it.
> Definitely more formalized for an organization like the PAF but I still see the same dilution of information happening.



Allama Sahib strikes again. I am in no position to suggest you to keep cool but you know better particularly when you are provoked. Most of keyboard geniuses are nitpicking here & there, sees a post from someone with credits and then start stretching the idea to any end merely to claim some Brownie points and then question others credentials. I think you have enlightened us all enough already.

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## SQ8

The Eagle said:


> Allama Sahib strikes again. I am in no position to suggest you to keep cool but you know better particularly when you are provoked. Most of keyboard geniuses are nitpicking here & there, sees a post from someone with credits and then start stretching the idea to any end merely to claim some Brownie points and then question others credentials. I think you have enlightened us all enough already.


The problem is none of us get paid for this yet everyone is out to shine their nametag. A lot of what gets talked here - I’d say about 90% ranges from fairly inaccurate to plain idiotic if you get any career military person worth their salt to go through it. Yet, people like to maintain they are the most intelligent ones out here only because either it provides meaning to some missing or desired aspect in their lives or they do have a passion for the subject but lack competence in it so they offset that by a facade of false confidence.

Most people including myself will disregard the 1001 factors that go into military(or any other profession that is not related to my own) procurement, integration and usage (or any other tasks) that you only learn from either on the job training and experience. Even consulting firms have their consultants spends days if not weeks shadowing their clients day-in-the-life tasks before offering suggestions. Those that don’t either don’t offer good solutions and have idiotic clients who just like to throw money away.

To end the derailed topic here - I do have a keen interest in automobiles and own an Audi(hence the model username harking back to the Santro days.. how far life has come). I can talk to its performance, handling and day to day experience along with getting some feel if an issue has occurred.My cousin in Pakistan who owns a dealership bought a different older audi but has been a car fanatic all his life showered me with facts on my car which I had no idea of. However when he was describing the handling and performance it was slightly incorrect because he has never driven my model and he has no idea of my particular car and its options along with the environment it is being driven in - altitude, temperatures, road conditions and so on so not only are his knowledge assumptions incorrect but also best guesses even though he may have good input on other aspects.
His favorite car however is the Merc S65 AMG.

My friend is the top Audi salesman in his city, he can sell my car in an instant because he knows all the ins and outs of it and other Audi models. He thinks the S65 is great car too but expensive and difficult to find parts for the engine. However, despite his knowledge of Audis in general when he developed a fault in his S6 he had to get it to his shop and needed the technician to identify the actual fault, drive his car even though he has experience with the model and then certify the fault was rectified before he did his acceptance of it. His mechanic does agree with the part issue with the S65 but suggests the S63 because to him the real world day to day experience is also delivered by the model that costs $60k less. Some part of his opinion is that of a mechanic and some part of that is experience and preference since he has a customs shop on the side as well. Each have their own knowledge, day to day experience with the platform and input on the overall subject of automobiles.

Now if another cousin of mine who has only worked in banks and while does have a passive interest in cars hasn’t been able to either experience or own any of these particular models but starts passing authoritative statements on them expects me to pay any attention to him or respect his opinion.. well he has another thing coming. Especially since he doesn’t write my checks nor has any capacity nor capability to exert even an ounce of influence in my life - so I could try to spend a little time convincing him otherwise but at the end I have more pressing and much more rewarding things in my life to focus on instead of arguing with someone trying have a win on a subject just for the sake of winning.

Lets replace the cars with aircraft or tanks or submarines and PDF.. and tell me what is different?

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## PanzerKiel

SQ8 said:


> To end the derailed topic here - I do have a keen interest in automobiles and own an Audi
> His favorite car however is the Merc S65 AMG.


You are someone one must ought to be friend with.

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## SQ8

PanzerKiel said:


> You are someone one must ought to be friend with.


I use automobiles because they are a very common subject anyone can relate to.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Gripen9 said:


> Yeah I lived through it. My father was part of the MPDR evaluation, then commanded one of the CRC wings. I still have a "Project Crystal" coffee mug somewhere  But usually when people talked about it, it referred more to the MPDR acquisition versus PakADGE upgrade including tipsies.


We have that same mug at our home too

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## Goritoes

PurpleButcher said:


> Since we are on discussing Nawaz Shareef's engineering capabilities, the following video would explain his role in Pakistan's nuclear program
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On topic of J-10 and AL-31, it does not make any logical sense !



Mian sahab ne Atom Bomb banaya ho ya nai lakin is ko aur buhat saare Pakistaniyo ko Chuity@ zaroor banaya hai

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## akramishaqkhan

tphuang said:


> I've seen some hesitations on this and other thread about purchasing Chinese weapons, whether it's J-10C or Z-10. So, I will try to put you guys at ease about this. There has been huge technological advances in the Chinese military industrial complex in the past 20 years. But for the sake of this thread, I will just use fighter jet as an example. Back 20 years ago, China was still iterating through J-8II variants as its best aircraft. Just last month, they flew the first twin-seated 5th generation aircraft in the world.
> 
> If you look at Rafale's development from its first flight in 1991 until now and compare that to J-10 from 1998 until now. There has been a greater improvement in J-10 over a shorter timeframe. Just take a look at how long it took the Europeans to put AESA radars on the Eurocanards. China did not even have a modern mechanically scanned radar on a fighter jet until early 2000. The reason is pretty simple. China has put far more investment in its military industrial complex in the past 20 years. The gap in that investment will keep increasing as the Chinese economy keep growing.
> 
> As PAF receives its JF-17 and J-10C, it will also see their combat capabilities go up more quickly than IAF's Rafale. We may not see changes from external appearance, but you can make a lot of upgrades with software upgrades and also with newer generation electronic equipment. One good example is J-20 two seaters. From the outside, it looks like they just added a second seat, but this project was actually delayed by a couple of years as they are trying to incorporate the latest technological upgrades. And supposedly these changes will allow them to achieve a level of situation awareness that's not even possible with the original J-20. That's a lot of where future upgrades for these fighter jets come from. How good are their situation awareness? How good are they at keeping themselves hidden from different opposing fighters? I'd bet over the next 10 to 15 years, you will see greater improvements in this area in J-10C than Rafale as it leverages some of the gains from J-20 program.
> 
> When JF-17 first came out, PAF did not feel comfortable with Chinese avionics. How many people have the same hesitations now with JF-17 Block 3? I'm sure everyone on this board and with PAF has seen how much improvement have been made in block 3 compared to the original version. Have faith that you will see the same improvement in J-10 or Z-10 or whatever else Pakistan might be interested in the future.
> 
> There has been a view that Chinese product is behind the west and Russia. Chinese training is also behind. In fact, I find that's something Indian Internet warriors (and maybe even more serious people inside Indian military) hold on to in order to justify their belief that all the stuff China is building is overhyped. I don't have a problem with it. Even I'm surprised by some of the improvements they have made. It's hard to keep track of all the improvements they've made. I will use China and Russia as an example. You may have noticed that PLAAF and RuAF have not had any joint exercises even though China has annual exercises with PAF. The main reason from Chinese side is that they don't want to embarrass the Russians (who have helped them a lot to get to this point). When they got su-35, they could not believe how much of a gap existed in the radar/avionics between their own J-16 and Su-35. They asked the Russians repeatedly and that really was the best that the Russians could offer. You know Su-30MKIs are in trouble when the most realistic future upgrade plan is to use the same radar/EW suites that Su-35 uses. While J-10C and JF-17 block 3 are smaller, they will be able to have much better situation awareness than MKIs through this newer generation of electronics. Rafale is a different story, but IAF has a limited number of them. The biggest mistake India made was getting themselves into the MKI project and than into Su-57. These 2 Russian projects have squandered all the financial advantage they have over PAF.
> 
> There has also been a desire on this thread for flankers. I think flankers do have a pretty big advantage over J-10/JF-17 by being just a lot larger. They basically fitted the largest and most power consuming radar/avionics they can put on J-10 and JF-17. But obviously, there are realistic space limitations on J-10 compared to flankers. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure China would never export flankers due to its Russian relationship. It actually would be of help for PAF I think. J-16D recently entered into service with PLAAF. I think it's going to be a true force multiplier. I don't think IAF has a dedicated EW aircraft. If PAF can work with China to get a dedicated one (whether based on like a two seat version of J-10 or something larger), it would give PAF quite an advantage here.


Well written. Btw we should be expecting F18s in our neighborhood within the next 5 years. That is a dynamic we need to be planning for. Just a matter of time.


Bossman said:


> Why don’t you suggest one? I think there is nothing wrong with the color scheme.


Truckart!!!


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## baqai

SQ8 said:


> To end the derailed topic here - I do have a keen interest in automobiles and own an Audi



to cool things a little bit ... your statement somehow reminded me of this

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## Goritoes

SQ8 said:


> Forgetting the geriatric ranting truck salesman who is running out of his preparation H - The problem with information sources for people formerly associated with the Pakistani defense circles such as @messiach is that information isn’t always delivered exactly in terms of where a project stands in terms of development nor is it delivered always through the right individual or context. I had highlighted this earlier in another thread as well which really is the exact same process as any researcher. Except the bar for a scholarly publications is different to say a defense forum. All of the following is something you are likely aware of but just repeating it for others.I am not going to disclose opsec compromising data to anyone no longer in the loop or provide complete details.
> 
> After all, the Mig-25 was exaggerated until it actually landed in Japan. The M-50 bounder was thought to be a short stubby aircraft until better pictures emerged and the theories surrounding the F-117 and Aurora are numerous.
> 
> I oft repeat the following examples because they are both very old and also examples of unbelievable ideas back in their times: back in 1997 the sanctioned and barely fourth gen airforce Pakistan was studying a neurological link simulator for the F-16 which would have bald pilots experiencing physical sensations such as G’s and attitude through stimulation of their nerves - it might have gotten laughing responses right?. at that time I spoke to the person involved with that and can verify the source - but since I am anonymous how do you verify me?
> 
> Nothing came of that project but it went to a few dollars spent. The same way a Mirage was modified to get a radar cross section below 1sqm but again - the source was the former head of Kamra who passed away recently. But, I am anonymous and no proof of that project exists at all.
> 
> Now if I heard from the brother of a F-16 pilot that they were practicing BVR shots when they were on the F-7PG I would take that with a bit of salt because a the brother doesn’t understand the subject matter as well and what context did the pilot tell his brother regarding it?
> Turns out the pilot was referring to simulating the shots but that did not mean the F-7PG has a BVR weapon(but do have a monocle sight whose origins or use is a mystery).
> 
> Take it further to a Army Armored corps person mentioning something regarding the Pakistan Navy Supersonic AsHM program - that veracity of the source’s statements keeps getting more and more thin.
> My uncle was in the Navy and in mid 2001 he was adamant that the JF-17 had already flown in Pakistan and he saw it himself. I kept arguing with him that it hasn’t since its out of chengdu but he kept saying he has seen it fly himself but wouldn’t mention where - what does one do with that statement? Regardless of his position and reputation besides the relationship I don’t think he was being accurate.
> 
> As a more personal example - In my role as PLM I came up with the idea of a low cost game chamger device - built the business case for it, presented it but my VP shot it down due to higher priority projects and lack of funds. Now as I was brainstorming it once while on a field visit with one of my account executives I mentioned the idea to him and he got excited even though I mentioned we are just thinking about it. A few months in one of his customers asked me where that project stood as they were interested even though it was shelved before a single penny was allocated.
> 
> So even if a concept was thought up(Ramjet powered AAM , suicide gyrocopter drone or otherwise) and shared with someone - it doesn’t necessarily mean it went beyond the drawing or even creating a folder on some person’s pc stage nor does it mean it doesn’t exist however we cannot verify it.
> Definitely more formalized for an organization like the PAF but I still see the same dilution of information happening.



I don't think you and others (PDF reliable people) has to defend their news or share sources to anyone like Mastan or me because we are nobody's and we are not here to argue and fight over who's source is bigger and more accurate, projects starts and closed, some progresses and some never leave the planning table, but anyone in that planning room or brainstorming session can claim to have heard or " work " on a certain project that never sees the day light. Take America as example, how many Projects and their reports were declassified, and I can bet my Green Card that they won't make 10% of what American researchers are working on. PDF people ask for source and when they don't like it they don't just walk away they start getting personal with the person just sharing something he may or may not have heard from someone. 

@Deino unacceptance towards certain projects that rumored in PDF is justifiable because Pakistan as a poor country does not make a decision out of the blue, because their funds and resources are limited they often take years making a decision and even then many projects in final stages have been cancelled, some because of sudden fluctuation of economy, natural disaster (2005 Earthquake) and some because of Sanctions (T-129) but here, we as nobody's expect first hand intel from the Horse mouth, as in such information will see the light of the day without the permission of the Top brass. 

Every thread, even if it starts with a rumor ended up getting ruined by people fighting over disagreements, technical aspects , getting personal or just d!ck measuring over their sources, where did that time go for PDF when disagreements were handled professionally ? where did that time go when discussions were purely on technical terms and even that was under extreme respect for the poster, Now everyone is hyper nationalist and super crazy about their own country. Chinese (not all) don't want to hear anything against or any critic regarding their country's technological advancements or products, Europeans don't want to accept anyone else's progress over certain fields. PDF is losing its charm and attraction for even someone like me who is here to read and learn without even understanding much of the technical details, but now most of the pages are filled with personal attacks or disrespectful posts.

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## arjunk

thinkingcap81 said:


> Hindutva sentiments amongst a section of Indians



BJP won a landslide victory in the elections. Hindutva is the majority in India.

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## Gripen9

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We have that same mug at our home too


I guess we are ADWC kindred spirits 😀


----------



## Longhorn

Salza said:


> This is an important year in our history as we mark platinum jubliee celebrations of Pakistani independence so we should also expect bigger official ceremonies on March 23rd, August 14 etc. When you do a bit grand function(s) than you also have to incorporate bigger items as main highlights of the show. March 23rd parade will be ideal ceremony to launch block3s, J10s and possibly Z10MEs.


Platinum is 70 years.


----------



## SIPRA

thinkingcap81 said:


> I can go the other way round and ask whether the concept of socialism and sustanence of brotherhood towards Muslims (the secular parties did not make Indian Muslims feel unwanted but did not do much for their betterment either) is worth the loss of economic growth. One could have argued that with high economic growth and prosperity we would become more secular. But now we know that economic growth leading to secularisation may not have easily happened.
> 
> Politicians do what they do and we vote them in.
> 
> 
> No one other than the governments know what happened on 26-27 Feb 2019. Go to a decent Indian defence forum and they will logically counter your view just like you counter us here.
> 
> Republic TV is part of the effort to shore up Hindutva sentiments. As of now we're much poorer cousins of Pakistan in doing such things. We Indians are foolish not to understand where it can lead us.
> 
> 
> I already mentioned that there always was an undercurrent of nationalist Hindutva sentiment amongst a significant chunk of the Hindus. It was lying dormant. BJP backed by the RSS and its affiliates is allowing it to grow. The common man has no time to think of the consequences of this. He's busy with his daily struggles and is just ignorant and enamoured by it. Is it really very different from Pakistan and Bangladesh? Welcome to the subcontinent where we do not have strong institutions that can prevent this intellectual slide.



I was just wondering that whatever you are saying, right or wrong, has to do with the topic of this thread.

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## thinkingcap81

SIPRA said:


> I was just wondering that whatever you are saying, right or wrong, has to do with the topic of this thread.


Then i'll stop . At least i gave some distraction from the boring discussion going on.

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## SIPRA

thinkingcap81 said:


> Then i'll stop . At least i gave some distraction from the boring discussion going on.



No need. You have a right to respond to the posters, who would be responding to your earlier posts.


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## The Eagle

Guys..... no more Modi/Election/India/Pakistan discussion. Keep it on the topic please.

Regards,

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## PakShaheen79

Well, reading last 2 pages I have reached the conclusion that this thread must be locked for reply till the arrival of J-10C, if the news is true

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## Deino

*Could you guys please stop with thsee political discussions!*

@The Eagle

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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> *Could you guys please stop with thsee political discussions!*
> 
> @The Eagle



A message is already conveyed and no more posts since then. Will make sure to avoid derailing.

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## SQ8

*Hello, I am the J-10C - please return to only talking about me





*

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> *Hello, I am the J-10C - please return to only talking about me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *

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## Trailer23

I don't know why, but its always hard to picture @Bilal Khan (Quwa) to be cynical.

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## baqai

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> View attachment 807840
> 
> 
> View attachment 807841




i think the picture is missing something ... hmmmmmmm i wonder what

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Trailer23 said:


> I don't know why, but its always hard to picture @Bilal Khan (Quwa) to be cynical.


I was going to insert L-15, but that would've been a little on the nose seeing as the PAF did check it out for the LIFT requirement. That is a non-factor now.

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## Bossman

flameboard said:


> The sources seem questionable. I doubt Pakistan has much to gain from a J-10 acquisition.


PL15.

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## kursed

I wonder if @SQ8 would do us the honor of running a simulation involving the newly acquired UAVs (in numbers to confuse the Indian IADS) in conjunctions with J10Cs/JF-17 to launch a first strike at S400 on the other side.

It'd make up for interesting results.

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## Trailer23

Bossman said:


> PL15.


Not getting into the whole J-10 PAF has nothing to gain from the J-10C, because that is absurd.

However, just want to point out that the myth of J-10C being linked to the PL-15 is false. There was no condition set by China to acquire the PL-15.

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## SQ8

kursed said:


> I wonder if @SQ8 would do us the honor of running a simulation involving the newly acquired UAVs (in numbers to confuse the Indian IADS) in conjunctions with J10Cs/JF-17 to launch a first strike at S400 on the other side.
> 
> It'd make up for interesting results.


Lets do it on a separate thread - but that would be interesting to see what they are able to do.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Can UAV/UCAV transponders be manipulated to portray a much larger fleet of J-10Cs heading towards the India border or operating near the India border?

Can the enemy's Air Defences be overwhelmed this way or the radars / AWACs can distinguish between fighter aircrafts and drones?

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## kursed

SQ8 said:


> Lets do it on a separate thread - but that would be interesting to see what they are able to do.


Yes, please.


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## JamD

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Can UAV/UCAV transponders be manipulated to portray a much larger fleet of J-10Cs heading towards the India border or operating near the India border?
> 
> Can the enemy's Air Defences be overwhelmed this way or the radars / AWACs can distinguish between fighter aircrafts and drones?


Transponders are what the aircraft says it is. SAM sites are not locking on to transponder signals. However, what you are suggesting is exactly what the MALD is designed to do:





EDIT: In short the MALD has RF emitters that mimic the return of bigger aircraft. Also it is jet powered and flies at altitude and speeds (flight profile) of said bigger jets. I don't expect these to be foolproof- the fake returns probably work in specific aspects up to limited ranges. Also countermeasures might be built in to SAM systems. Cat and mouse always.

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## Bossman

Trailer23 said:


> Not getting into the whole J-10 PAF has nothing to gain from the J-10C, because that is absurd.
> 
> However, just want to point out that the myth of J-10C being linked to the PL-15 is false. There was no condition set by China to acquire the PL-15.


I never said it was. I just wanted to pi$$ off the Indians


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## siegecrossbow

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Can UAV/UCAV transponders be manipulated to portray a much larger fleet of J-10Cs heading towards the India border or operating near the India border?
> 
> Can the enemy's Air Defences be overwhelmed this way or the radars / AWACs can distinguish between fighter aircrafts and drones?



Modern radars are capable of determining the type of aircraft based on radar return signature. You'd think that J-16 and Su-30 are visually similar, right? They have vastly different radar signatures and Taiwanese ground based radars could tell the difference. This is known since they report aircraft type for PLAAF ADIZ incursions but often don't scramble fighter aircraft for visual verification.

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## White Lion

siegecrossbow said:


> Modern radars are capable of determining the type of aircraft based on radar return signature. You'd think that J-16 and Su-30 are visually similar, right? They have vastly different radar signatures and Taiwanese ground based radars could tell the difference. This is known since they report aircraft type for PLAAF ADIZ incursions but often don't scramble fighter aircraft for visual verification.


The detection is different because of radar observant paint and that is what the Taiwanese ground radar controllers determined. Way back in Serbia a F117 was shot down by using obsolete radars that did not rely on increased PRF to determine the type of aircraft. The F117 would deflect the increased Pulses to show many targets but reducing the Pulses identified the aircraft and it was easily shot down. 

A B2 was also detected over UK during rain as the moisture over the surface of the aircraft made it non stealthy. 








Stealth Fighter Uncloaked : Gulf War: British radar apparently picked up the F-117 up to 40 miles from its targets. Should we worry?


The Persian Gulf War was a proving ground for many of the U.S. military's newest high-tech weapons.




www.latimes.com

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Hailed as a rafale slayer very soon in PAF colours.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## abdulbarijan

Just an update: The "rafale slayer" to date hasn't slayed any rafales. In addition it has yet to join the PAF officially. Let's keep some difference between us and our friends in the East in terms of hailing something as "XYZ slayer" before its even inducted. 

Regards,
Abj

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## untitled

abdulbarijan said:


> Just an update: The "rafale slayer" to date hasn't slayed any rafales.


How about rumour slayer or PDF fighter doctrine thread slayer?


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

abdulbarijan said:


> The "rafale slayer" to date hasn't slayed any rafales


The Indians have not slayed any aircrafts, yet they boast.








Nevertheless the Indians have pretty much mastered the art of *SLAYING *their own aircrafts by incompetent flying and maintenance techniques.

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## untitled

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> The Indians have not slayed any aircrafts, yet they boast.


Dragon Slayers.... St George's own
Continuing the tradition of the excalibur rifle


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## The Eagle

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> The Indians have not slayed any aircrafts, yet they boast.
> View attachment 808274
> View attachment 808275
> 
> 
> Nevertheless the Indians have pretty much mastered the art of *SLAYING *their own aircrafts by incompetent flying and maintenance techniques.
> View attachment 808277



Make a difference. Don't boast.

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## NA71

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 808191


My work...actually three J-10s....I replaced one with JF-17

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## The Eagle

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 808191



Didn't you try to look at not so good looking pitot tube on JF-17 Thunder?

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> View attachment 807840
> 
> 
> View attachment 807841


Will k8ng have enough to get sach attention?


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## Blueskiez 2001

Tair-Lahoti said:


> FHD Chinese documentary on J10C in English dubbing.



If this is true (probably is) then it puts all the talk about J-10 to be an copy of the LAVI project to an end. Maybe there was some inspiration or knowledge input from the LAVI project but to go from there to say its a copy its a huge step. 

Could it be jealousy... ie China cannot build a sophisticated without the help from the west.....

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## siegecrossbow

I think mods should lock this thread until the next milestone occurs. People go on wild tangents and there is much off topic material/baseless conjecture.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> The Indians have not slayed any aircrafts, yet they boast.
> View attachment 808274
> View attachment 808275
> 
> 
> Nevertheless the Indians have pretty much mastered the art of *SLAYING *their own aircrafts by incompetent flying and maintenance techniques.
> View attachment 808277


Pictures speak louder than patches....

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## Kaleem.61

One thing I know about J10c is that it can fly at lower altitude to make it harder for a radar to detect him. Other more hardpoints than Jf17 and Most important It Outperformed J16&SU35.

2nd it is not the first thing we can use to counter Rafael. No PAF is not that sleepy. He knows what Raphael is and and may have started digging it earlier than IAF.

I am big 0 but i think SAM will not be very helpful while backing Rafales and Domestic MK1/2s. Mac can't work with Windows. Here IAF will struggle and when you struggle you can't ....!

On the other hand J10C/JF17C will make it hell for the innocent Independents



TNT said:


> Prophet SAW said he only knows what He is being told by Allah.
> So dont compare urself to Prophets, u dont even know what ur talking about and pretend to be expert.


Bro while talking about our Final Prophet please don't use such language/claims. I don't know the context but these words are not appropriate and will lead towards a clash.
I can prove you wrong in a fraction of Minute: Surah Al Namal Ayat 65!
Plz don't take it personal but you should not make claims about Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) and don't compare Makhlooq with the Khaliq!

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## Ghessan

Tair-Lahoti said:


> FHD Chinese documentary on J10C in English dubbing.



with this effort of decades they have not just made a fighter plane but stand whole aviation industry in China to a new level. 

this effort and the courage they got from this achievement bring them a confidence which dawn on them this marvel J-20

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## Titanium100

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Pictures speak louder than patches....


blame it on ganges


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## The Eagle

Kaleem.61 said:


> Jef



What is this????????


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## luciferdd

Blueskiez 2001 said:


> If this is true (probably is) then it puts all the talk about J-10 to be an copy of the LAVI project to an end. Maybe there was some inspiration or knowledge input from the LAVI project but to go from there to say its a copy its a huge step.
> 
> Could it be jealousy... ie China cannot build a sophisticated without the help from the west.....


611 Institute Researched&Designed J-10 and CAS manufactured it with many technologies that was introduced from the Europe,they(Europeans) helped a lot.


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## Titanium100

The Eagle said:


> What is this????????



Lmao.. I was thinking the same


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## syedmunib

Tair-Lahoti said:


> FHD Chinese documentary on J10C in English dubbing.




It says at end that J10C has thrust vectoring added in 2018. 
@Deino that is as official as it gets. Question is whether they are talking of AL31 or chineese engine.


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## GiantPanda

syedmunib said:


> It says at end that J10C has thrust vectoring added in 2018.
> @Deino that is as official as it gets. Question is whether they are talking of AL31 or chineese engine.



Obviously the WS-10. This was demonstrated at the 2018 Zhuhai Air Show.

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## Bleek

GiantPanda said:


> Obviously the WS-10. This was demonstrated at the 2018 Zhuhai Air Show.


But I don't think Pakistan will be getting the TVC variant of the engine


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## Genghis khan1

Kaleem.61 said:


> Bro while talking about our Final Prophet please don't use such language/claims. I don't know the context but these words are not appropriate and will lead towards a clash.
> I can prove you wrong in a fraction of Minute: Surah Al Namal Ayat 65!
> Plz don't take it personal but you should not make claims about Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) and don't compare Makhlooq with the Khaliq!


Not sure what exact language or claims are you referring to, but I don’t see him stated anything that warranted such a strong response. Neither he spoke about khaliq maklooq.

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## Salza

Sheikh Rasheed (interior minister) just live right now said that as per his information, J10Cs will flew on March 23rd.

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## The Eagle

Salza said:


> Sheikh Rasheed (interior minister) just live right now said that as per his information, J10Cs will flew on March 23rd.



That is a bit short of his previous statement. The excitement part is missing or did he explain himself in regard to J-10C(P)? Link to video will be appreciated.


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## NA71

25 JS10 will fly on 23 March ..... 😁... Kaddo.
23 Rd March say pehley our defense minister Pervez Khatak will give flypast to PM😂


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## Ghessan

at 1:55

"aur jis mein cheen k J-10C bhi flying past karein gaye... *meri ittelaat k mutabiq *... phir india shor daal deta hey... india ek ... sari dunya mein aur sarey log ... *meri ittelaat k mutabiq *being interior minister k J10C fly karey ga ek aquad ... " *repeated twice*

it seems he is getting away from his previous statement

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## The Eagle

It may sound like too much of boasting at this point of time but OIC will be here on 23rd March & J-10Cs will be participating in fly-past. Don't want to sound like conspiracy theorist but there seems to be a lot going on than just a fly-past. Secondly, he dropped his JS-10 for PAF in counter to Rafale wording but he clearly said that India then makes lot of noise in the world. A squadron of J-10C will participate and that means PLAAF never flew a full squadron for a fly past unless it is a pure power show and that may sound like PAF doing it deliberately. 

Above is what it sounds from the presser but IMO, are you guys sure that J-10C/P are coming to PAF?

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## untitled

He actually paused to think and said "J-10C" instead of JS-10 . He was very specific
Does China actually use J-10C's for aerobatics/flypasts?


The Eagle said:


> are you guys sure that J-10C/P are coming to PAF?


Are you?


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## Deino

syedmunib said:


> It says at end that J10C has thrust vectoring added in 2018.
> @Deino that is as official as it gets. Question is whether they are talking of AL31 or chineese engine.




Yes, added on a test-platform but surely not on any operational J-10C. In fact we know only one - maybe plus a second - PLAAF unit operating WS-10B powered ones, but we know already several J-10Cs with that engine and simply NONE - in fact not a single one - has the TVC nozzle.

In fact exactly the opposite: Only one single J-10B is using it.

As such, the chance, the PAF might get as a first uses a TVC-equipped J-10C is IMO non-existent.


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## Kaleem.61

The Eagle said:


> What is this????????


It's a secrete weapon  just like JS 10! i.e. J 71 F3!


Genghis khan1 said:


> Not sure what exact language or claims are you referring to, but I don’t see him stated anything that warranted such a strong response. Neither he spoke about khaliq maklooq.



I mean to say we need to understand to whom we are referring. He say as Final Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) were not aware of a plant....! Ma aaz Allah!


----------



## The Eagle

Kaleem.61 said:


> It's a secrete weapon  just like JS 10! i.e. J 71 F3!



As you name it so please explain.


untitled said:


> Are you?



I am asking not claiming.


Genghis khan1 said:


> Not sure what exact language or claims are you referring to, but I don’t see him stated anything that warranted such a strong response. Neither he spoke about khaliq maklooq.





Kaleem.61 said:


> I mean to say we need to understand to whom we are referring. He say as Final Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) were not aware of a plant....! Ma aaz Allah!



NO more please.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

I love J10C as it's a very versatile platform, can use Thrust vectoring nozzles, AESA radars, a Variety of Missiles and Avionics. I would love to see it with Conformal tanks as well, I hope the Chinese are working on it!
Some Fan ideas are below.

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## TNT

Kaleem.61 said:


> Bro while talking about our Final Prophet please don't use such language/claims. I don't know the context but these words are not appropriate and will lead towards a clash.
> I can prove you wrong in a fraction of Minute: Surah Al Namal Ayat 65!
> Plz don't take it personal but you should not make claims about Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) and don't compare Makhlooq with the Khaliq!





Kaleem.61 said:


> I mean to say we need to understand to whom we are referring. He say as Final Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) were not aware of a plant....! Ma aaz Allah!



This is off topic and i wont talk further but u should really study Islam, the Prophet SAW was a human, dont be like Christians and make Him a God naozobillah. You talk without even doing research, did u even read the ayah that u mentioned? The ayat says Only Allah knows all, which confirms my point. As for the story of the date trees, i digged out the hadith. You said maaz Allah now u should sah astaghafar and repent. 

Musa b. Talha reported:
I and Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) happened to pass by people near the date-palm trees. He (the Holy Prophet) said: What are these people doing? They said: They are grafting, i. e. they combine the male with the female (tree) and thus they yield more fruit. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: I do not find it to be of any use. The people were informed about it and they abandoned this practice. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) (was later) on informed (that the yield had dwindled), whereupon he said: If there is any use of it, then they should do it, for it was just a personal opinion of mine, and do not go after my personal opinion; but when I say to you anything on behalf of Allah, then do accept it, for I do not attribute lie to Allah, the Exalted and Glorious.
(Sahih muslim 2361)

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## siegecrossbow

Ghessan said:


> at 1:55
> 
> "aur jis mein cheen k J-10C bhi flying past karein gaye... *meri ittelaat k mutabiq *... phir india shor daal deta hey... india ek ... sari dunya mein aur sarey log ... *meri ittelaat k mutabiq *being interior minister k J10C fly karey ga ek aquad ... " *repeated twice*
> 
> it seems he is getting away from his previous statement



Can you translalte?


----------



## araz

TNT said:


> This is off topic and i wont talk further but u should really study Islam, the Prophet SAW was a human, dont be like Christians and make Him a God naozobillah. You talk without even doing research, did u even read the ayah that u mentioned? The ayat says Only Allah knows all, which confirms my point. As for the story of the date trees, i digged out the hadith. You said maaz Allah now u should sah astaghafar and repent.
> 
> Musa b. Talha reported:
> I and Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) happened to pass by people near the date-palm trees. He (the Holy Prophet) said: What are these people doing? They said: They are grafting, i. e. they combine the male with the female (tree) and thus they yield more fruit. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: I do not find it to be of any use. The people were informed about it and they abandoned this practice. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) (was later) on informed (that the yield had dwindled), whereupon he said: If there is any use of it, then they should do it, for it was just a personal opinion of mine, and do not go after my personal opinion; but when I say to you anything on behalf of Allah, then do accept it, for I do not attribute lie to Allah, the Exalted and Glorious.
> (Sahih muslim 2361)


While I fully support your statement and the quote of the Hadith, having previously read and been aware of it, I think the discussion is about J10 and should be confined to that. Even if someone has raised any objection to an irrelevant post, please ignore it and move on.
MaAsSalam
A

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## xuxu1457

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> I love J10C as it's a very versatile platform, can use Thrust vectoring nozzles, AESA radars, a Variety of Missiles and Avionics. I would love to see it with Conformal tanks as well, I hope the Chinese are working on it!
> Some Fan ideas are below.
> View attachment 808531
> 
> 
> View attachment 808534


before 2010, China test the idea, thephoto of J-10 wind tunnel test model with conformal fuel tank is published.
However, Air Force believes that this kind of conformal fuel tank with limited capacity is of little significance to improve the combat capability of the J-10, and that the conformal fuel tank cannot be abandoned after running out of fuel. in addition, it also involves major structural modifications to the rear fuselage and deceleration plate of the aircraft, which is not as simple and efficient as the dual hanger in increasing the carrying capacity of air-to-air missiles.

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## HAIDER

J10c participation on 23rd of March ... he didn't mention this press conference, if Pakistan acquired or its symbolic participation.
Watch from 2.0


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## Ghessan

[Q


siegecrossbow said:


> Can you translalte?


He just said "dignitaries from OIC will attend 23 March event and according to my information Chinese J-10-C will fly past" then he said: "India make noise all over the world but being Interior Minister according to my information a squadron of J-10 C will fly"

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## siegecrossbow

untitled said:


> He actually paused to think and said "J-10C" instead of JS-10 . He was very specific
> Does China actually use J-10C's for aerobatics/flypasts?
> 
> Are you?



They have for parades in 2019 and 2021. According to a leaked excerpt from ground crew manual for the even the frontal rcs is very low and extra effort is needed to track it with ground radars.

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## Bleek

It sounds very unclear if it will just be the PLAAF flying it, or if it will be the PAF flying it. He seems like he's backtracking on his claims from earlier


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## syed_yusuf

I am not sure if PAF is getting two squadrons of j10 or just plaaf flying it during the parade

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## SIPRA

Bleek said:


> It sounds very unclear if it will just be the PLAAF flying it, or if it will be the PAF flying it. He seems like he's backtracking on his claims from earlier



In any case, "Sheeda Tully" succeeded in causing a thread on PDF, which has now 108 pages.

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## Nomad40

It will be just wait for the date and dates closer.


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## syed_yusuf

Absolutely.. till we see it all other discussion is simply futile. If paf to fly past j10 then should have already inducted it and just waiting for the right time to have induction ceremony. Else let's see what transpires in next 60 days

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## MastanKhan

SIPRA said:


> In any case, "Sheeda Tully" succeeded in causing a thread on PDF, which has now 108 pages.



Hi,

Mr. Tully has done more than that---. This news has made the americans running around confused---it has made the indians go around in circles.

Bad news for americans---last bit of american influence over pakistan has disppeared now---terrible foreign policy by the americans.

Pres Duterte was right in stating that " any deal with the american president / govt cannot be trusted no more ".

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## akramishaqkhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Mr. Tully has done more than that---. This news has made the americans running around confused---it has made the indians go around in circles.
> 
> Bad news for americans---last bit of american influence over pakistan has disppeared now---terrible foreign policy by the americans.
> 
> Pres Duterte was right in stating that " any deal with the american president / govt cannot be trusted no more ".


US Foreign policy on Pakistan is perhaps one of its biggest 21st century blunders.

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## That Guy

The Eagle said:


> It may sound like too much of boasting at this point of time but OIC will be here on 23rd March & J-10Cs will be participating in fly-past. Don't want to sound like conspiracy theorist but there seems to be a lot going on than just a fly-past. Secondly, he dropped his JS-10 for PAF in counter to Rafale wording but he clearly said that India then makes lot of noise in the world. A squadron of J-10C will participate and that means PLAAF never flew a full squadron for a fly past unless it is a pure power show and that may sound like PAF doing it deliberately.
> 
> Above is what it sounds from the presser but IMO, are you guys sure that J-10C/P are coming to PAF?


Like I said before, Shiekh Rasheed talks a lot, and thinks very little.

I honestly doubt this is anything more than a strong Chinese presence during the show, to symbolize the growing relationship between the two nations.

The only thing that makes me reconsider is the fact that the PAF hasn't denied the rumors.

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## The Eagle

That Guy said:


> Like I said before, Shiekh Rasheed talks a lot, and thinks very little.
> 
> I honestly doubt this is anything more than a strong Chinese presence during the show, to symbolize the growing relationship between the two nations.
> 
> The only thing that makes me reconsider is the fact that the PAF hasn't denied the rumors.



Beside that induction or no denial of rumor by PAF: actually such pressers are giving them Americans some kind of terrible vibes. Whether J-10CP will be here or not but it has already made an impact. Having said that, it is not just J-10CP, if inducted, but a lot of capability & strength.

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## Riz

That Guy said:


> Like I said before, Shiekh Rasheed talks a lot, and thinks very little.
> 
> I honestly doubt this is anything more than a strong Chinese presence during the show, to symbolize the growing relationship between the two nations.
> 
> The only thing that makes me reconsider is the fact that the PAF hasn't denied the rumors.


This is not joke , if there was no deal military simply deny the rumors long ago

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## The Terminator

Reichsmarschall said:


> 20 J15s also delivered


A squadron of J-20s and 4 Type-55 destroyers are also ready to be delivered to Pakistan this year.

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## Enigma SIG

SIPRA said:


> In any case, "Sheeda Tully" succeeded in causing a thread on PDF, which has now 108 pages.


I would l like to know if he has shares in PDF. Might be swimming in ad money right now

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## The Terminator

RealNapster said:


> To be frank, I think this is the future of fighter jets. In generation 7 or 8 I expect them to travel in the atmosphere as well as out in space (like to the moon or any other mother ship in the space). Like the one we seen in independence day : Resurgence movie.
> 
> Edit : its name is H-8 global defender.
> 
> View attachment 807607


Mother ship in air/space is a failed idea. A lot more difficult to defend and maintain as well. Russian aircraft carriers engine failed so they used tug boats and whatever power left to dock it. Just imagine if a mothership's engine fails or it faces some catastrophic events, a huge chunk of military hardware/personnel could be lost in a blink of an eye. Furthermore it could destroy satellite networks or Earth/Moon/Mars population through raining debris at terminal speeds. In contrast, High altitude or even outer space fighters are quite probable in the future.

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## The Terminator

tphuang said:


> J-10Cs are not coming with AL-31. China waited until WS-10B is mature on J-10Cs before exporting them. There is no need for local assembly of AESA radar when JF-17 project already has AESA radar that I'm sure PAC can request to locally assemble. Russia's 5th generation project is a disaster right now. Why would anyone want to join that?
> 
> The biggest mistake India made were participating in the Su-30MKI project and then Su-57. They ended giving a lot of money to fund Russia development for years and got no 5th generation aircraft and an improved su-27 that took years to mature and is now way behind other 4.5 generation aircraft in electronics. Of course, it gave armchair QBs on Internet as lot of time to boast about what great weapons their trusted Russian friend was giving them (that China didn't have access to) and how they were going to destroy China. In reality, it was a big waste of their time for a fleet that is still struggling to achieve availability on it.
> 
> Don't get obsessed with stuff like PL-15E vs PL-15. No one here knows how capable the version PL-15 version is or what version PAF is getting for sure. It doesn't really matter. The published range on these things are meaningless. PAF will have to do its own testing to see what is a realistic NEZ on it and then utilize that in the battle field. It's more useful for combat readiness to have a reliable and available aircraft in service as soon as possible. That allows you to train with it, develop tactics and discover/improve its capability.
> 
> I'm sure that's not as fun as telling Indians my radar has 400 more T/R modules and sees 10 km further out than yours, so I will win. That kind of arguments is meaningless. You have something that will be in your service with basically similar size, payload and generation of electronics. It's up to PAF now to bring it up to the best combat capability and work with CAC to improve it. Not only will PLAAF help PAF with getting trained on J-10Cs, but PAF will also help CAC/PLAAF with knowledge and ideas from its own experience. That's how this kind of stuff works. China is delivering J-10Cs on a very tight schedule due to its close relationship with Pakistan at the cost of its own production slots. This is not about making money off PAF as a couple of people alluded to up the thread. This is about helping a friend out and then helping each other out.
> 
> 
> Deino, did you see some recent source that pointed to this? I admit that I haven't tracked things closely in the recent years. Back 5 years ago, I remember a lot of rumbling coming out that the first major improved variant for J-10/flankers coming out was going to have 12% greater thrust than 12.5t of the first iteration of production WS-10. Which would point to 14t or about 137kN. Based on the time frame, the first batch of J-10Cs that received WS-10B should be getting that variant. The version they built for J-20 may or may not have greater thrust. Unfortunately, with the death of CJDBY, it's hard to find a good place to read up on this.


Lol their Asian Raptor got humiliated in the famous February conflict. Indians used to say that particular Asian Raptor could do doughnuts around SAAB 2000 AEWC deep inside PAF airspace. But unfortunately the whole Indian air force went onto public holiday that day  . I am sure the great MKI raptor would have crushed meager F-16s and JF-17s by just swallowing them through MKI's huge intakes and spitting them out of the exhaust. Lucky for PAF that IAF's Raptor fleet wasn't on duty that day

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## The Terminator

Trailer23 said:


> Lets celebrate *100 Pages* of _Sheikh Rasheed_ & his deliberate spill that has led to so much interest* in so many parts of the World.
> 
> *enough for _Maj. Gubar Arya_ to dedicate an entire show & questioning as to where Pakistan is getting the money to pay for these new toys (not limiting the conversation to just the J-10C).


"Pak ka napak rishta. Kahan se a rha hai J-10C viman Kon de rha Pl-15 Bharat k khilaaf. Kesay hua Pakistan isko khareednay me sakshum. R kia hai Cheen ki runreeti" 

Asa hi Kuch boil rhy hongy. I used to watch Indian news media whenever I wanted to cheer up and have a heart full of laughter

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## Riz

The Terminator said:


> "Pak ka napak rishta. Kahan se a rha hai J-10C viman Kon de rha Pl-15 Bharat k khilaaf. Kesay hua Pakistan isko khareednay me sakshum. R kia hai Cheen ki runreeti"
> 
> Asa hi Kuch boil rhy hongy. I used to watch Indian news media whenever I wanted to cheer up and have a heart full of laughter


Paisy ka bhoka nanga daish , chala ha phir napak irady k sath , statebank par IMF ka control , FATF ma black listed mulk, chala ha J-10c lainy , abhinanadan k akaily mig-21 ko na rok sakny wala daish, F-16 ko mig sa na bucha panay wala napak daish , akhir kahan sa aa raha ha paisa kon day raha ha paisa ,,,koi aor nhi balky cheeeeeen ,, g han cheen jis na Pakistan ko karjaaa day kar apny kabu ma kar lia

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## SIPRA

The Terminator said:


> "Pak ka napak rishta. Kahan se a rha hai J-10C viman Kon de rha Pl-15 Bharat k khilaaf. Kesay hua Pakistan isko khareednay me sakshum. R kia hai Cheen ki runreeti"
> 
> Asa hi Kuch boil rhy hongy. I used to watch Indian news media whenever I wanted to cheer up and have a heart full of laughter



Yes ....... Major Gobar Arya .... General Bakri ...... etc. etc.

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## maverick1977

SIPRA said:


> Yes ....... Major Gobar Arya .... General Bakri ...... etc. etc.



bayankar fire kia pakistanio nay hum pay…

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## Riz

SIPRA said:


> Yes ....... Major Gobar Arya .... General Bakri ...... etc. etc.


Due to consistent propaganda on their TVs media and on internet against Pakistan , there new generation daily slept with a thought: Kal shubha jub hum uthain gay to pak deewalia ho jay ga , kal Pakistan ka last day hoga  did not you guys noticed the day when INdia did balakot and very next day they saw nandu slapped by the Anti Pakistani AJK peoples  Aray BC yeh pak kia drama dikha raha ha bhai, pata nhi kis ko pakda hoa ha hamara to koi pilot aisa ha he nhi aray bawaly ho gay ho kaaa hamra koi veeman ko pak gira to kia daikh bhi nhi sakta

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## Ghessan

maverick1977 said:


> bayankar fire kia pakistanio nay hum pay…
> 
> 
> View attachment 808801


 اتنی منحوس شکل نعوض باللہ
جے ٹن سی کی ایگزاسٹ نوزل

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## Riz

Ghessan said:


> اتنی منحوس شکل نعوض باللہ
> جے ٹن سی کی ایگزاسٹ نوزل

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## TheTallGuy

@Windjammer 

when is rehearsing starts?


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## Fioril

Windjammer said:


> *Mumkanility Bird. ?*
> 
> Green livery J-10.....could be....maybe ....possibly.....let's hope....roll on another 100 pages.
> 
> 
> View attachment 808822


 Madni Tyara

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## SIPRA

Fioril said:


> Madni Tyara



Warraich Tayyaara.


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## MH.Yang

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> I love J10C as it's a very versatile platform, can use Thrust vectoring nozzles, AESA radars, a Variety of Missiles and Avionics. I would love to see it with Conformal tanks as well, I hope the Chinese are working on it!
> Some Fan ideas are below.
> View attachment 808531
> 
> 
> View attachment 808534



If J10 increases the Conformal Fuel Tank and strengthens its maritime combat capability, I think Pakistan can consider using it to replace Mirage.

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## Riz

MH.Yang said:


> If J10 increases the Conformal Fuel Tank and strengthens its maritime combat capability, I think Pakistan can consider using it to replace Mirage.
> 
> 
> View attachment 808824
> 
> View attachment 808825
> 
> View attachment 808826
> 
> View attachment 808827


Some one told me that delta wing can’t support CFT , then why raphaaale have CFTs ?


----------



## Riz

Beautiful sketch ..credit to @tango_indigo

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## Sanwal!!

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Mr. Tully has done more than that---. This news has made the americans running around confused---it has made the indians go around in circles.
> 
> Bad news for americans---last bit of american influence over pakistan has disppeared now---terrible foreign policy by the americans.
> 
> Pres Duterte was right in stating that " any deal with the american president / govt cannot be trusted no more ".



I agree with you, and I am also perplexed. 18 new Blk 52s and a dozen Zulus will not change the balance in the Indian Sub-Continent's arena but could reduce the over-grown Chinese influence on the military establishment. It appears the State department and DoD are running out of experience diplomates and policy makers. 

@MastanKhan

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## monitor

Pakistan bought 36 J-10Cs from China in 2019. These include 3 Squadrons: two regular combat squadrons of 15 aircraft each and a CCS advanced air combat tactics development squadron with 6 aircraft.










#Pakistan’s Interior Minister again confirms that a squadron of J-10Cs will reach Pakistan before the 23rd March Pakistan Day Parade, and will conduct flypasts over Rawalpindi and Islamabad, and further says the 2022 Pakistan Day Parade will be ‘historic’.


BTW where is Pakistan's defense minister or air chief , why a interior minister disclosing such a vital acquisition. 🤔🤔🤔😣

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## Bleek

monitor said:


> Pakistan bought 36 J-10Cs from China in 2019. These include 3 Squadrons: two regular combat squadrons of 15 aircraft each and a CCS advanced air combat tactics development squadron with 6 aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> #Pakistan’s Interior Minister again confirms that a squadron of J-10Cs will reach Pakistan before the 23rd March Pakistan Day Parade, and will conduct flypasts over Rawalpindi and Islamabad, and further says the 2022 Pakistan Day Parade will be ‘historic’.
> 
> 
> BTW where is Pakistan's defense minister or air chief , why a interior minister disclosing such a vital acquisition. 🤔🤔🤔😣


Source?

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## SIPRA

monitor said:


> ....... why a interior minister disclosing such a vital acquisition. 🤔🤔🤔😣



Because, his nickname is "Tully", which, in Punjabi, means "ringing bell".

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## untitled

MH.Yang said:


> If J10 increases the Conformal Fuel Tank and strengthens its maritime combat capability, I think Pakistan can consider using it to replace Mirage.
> 
> 
> View attachment 808824
> 
> View attachment 808825
> 
> View attachment 808826
> 
> View attachment 808827


Shouldn't a stealth aircraft have two tails tilted at an angle?


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## siegecrossbow

untitled said:


> Shouldn't a stealth aircraft have two tails tilted at an angle?



What makes you think that this is a stealth fighter?


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## untitled

siegecrossbow said:


> What makes you think that this is a stealth fighter?


I searched for stealthy J-10 and got the above images in the results. The internet never lies 🤣

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## MastanKhan

Sanwal!! said:


> I agree with you, and I am also perplexed. 18 new Blk 52s and a dozen Zulus will not change the balance in the Indian Sub-Continent's arena but could reduce the over-grown Chinese influence on the military establishment. It appears the State department and DoD are running out of experience diplomates and policy makers.
> 
> @MastanKhan



Hi,

It is not the state dept or DOD but some congressmen and senators.

Any alliance or deal with the americans is worth toilet paper nowadays. Any single congressman or a senator can challenge a deal made between two nations and impose sanctions

The WORD of the american president has no value at all.


untitled said:


> Shouldn't a stealth aircraft have two tails tilted at an angle?



Hi,

Indeed that is first part of a stealth aircraft design---the titlted tails or the next stepp---no tails at all..

Some single tail aircraft can be termed as " stealtheir " or having some stealth features added but not a true stealth design---the stealthier part maybe due to special paint scheme---inlets---etc.

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## MastanKhan

monitor said:


> Pakistan bought 36 J-10Cs from China in 2019. These include 3 Squadrons: two regular combat squadrons of 15 aircraft each and a CCS advanced air combat tactics development squadron with 6 aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> #Pakistan’s Interior Minister again confirms that a squadron of J-10Cs will reach Pakistan before the 23rd March Pakistan Day Parade, and will conduct flypasts over Rawalpindi and Islamabad, and further says the 2022 Pakistan Day Parade will be ‘historic’.
> 
> 
> *BTW where is Pakistan's defense minister or air chief , why a interior minister disclosing such a vital acquisition.* 🤔🤔🤔😣



Hi,

Because he can.

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## StormBreaker

Salza said:


> May be Russians have put such a condition that in order to get continuous support and availability of RD93 for thunders , you have to buy engines from Russia only. Also this may pave way for flankers possiblity as well in near by future . At least this is how Russia can also make some money from Pakistan CHINA collaboration projects. Hi5 for all three countries !


Or most likely PAF knows the issues with Chinese engines and is better off with Russian ones.

Why Tranny tower thinks AL-31 is something hard to digest is out of my mind. If RD-93 can come, Why not AL-31 ? And AL-31 are already available for exports, CAC never won a contract for J-10C from other Militaries otherwise we would have seen other customers of J-10C with AL-31 as well instead of WS-10.

My guess is that Chinese engines are still lagging behind in terms of performance and Life. Maintenance might be the real headache especially for smaller air forces with lesser budget. PLAAF has enough money to waste on maintenance just to keep up with indigenization and showcasing itself (false image) as a completely independent air force with all issues sorted out.

Adding up to this, I might be wrong or partially wrong on the engine part but even if there are issues, They won’t be for too long either.


monitor said:


> Pakistan bought 36 J-10Cs from China in 2019. These include 3 Squadrons: two regular combat squadrons of 15 aircraft each and a CCS advanced air combat tactics development squadron with 6 aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> #Pakistan’s Interior Minister again confirms that a squadron of J-10Cs will reach Pakistan before the 23rd March Pakistan Day Parade, and will conduct flypasts over Rawalpindi and Islamabad, and further says the 2022 Pakistan Day Parade will be ‘historic’.
> 
> 
> BTW where is Pakistan's defense minister or air chief , why a interior minister disclosing such a vital acquisition. 🤔🤔🤔😣


If he claims the parade to be historic, I want to see Ababeel in it. No better time than now to show it. ICBM, One can only wish.

J-10, InshaAllah.
J-15 ? If they do a flypast, I will celebrate like nothing before.
F-16V, I hope they too and JH-7 as well.

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## MastanKhan

StormBreaker said:


> Or most likely PAF knows the issues with Chinese engines and is better off with Russian ones.
> 
> Why Tranny tower thinks AL-31 is something hard to digest is out of my mind. If RD-93 can come, Why not AL-31 ? And AL-31 are already available for exports, CAC never won a contract for J-10C from other Militaries otherwise we would have seen other customers of J-10C with AL-31 as well instead of WS-10.
> 
> My guess is that Chinese engines are still lagging behind in terms of performance and Life. Maintenance might be the real headache especially for smaller air forces with lesser budget. PLAAF has enough money to waste on maintenance just to keep up with indigenization and showcasing itself (false image) as a completely independent air force with all issues sorted out.
> 
> Adding up to this, I might be wrong or partially wrong on the engine part but even if there are issues, They won’t be for too long either.
> 
> If he claims the parade to be historic, I want to see Ababeel in it. No better time than now to show it. ICBM, One can only wish.
> 
> J-10, InshaAllah.
> J-15 ? If they do a flypast, I will celebrate like nothing before.
> F-16V, I hope they too and JH-7 as well.



Hi,

China will not sell J10 C to any other country than Pakistan---. The technology in this aircraft is very sensitive. 

Exceptions do happen---but I very much doubt it---. Most nations will willingly go under the control of the US by getting the re-furbished F16's or the F-35's---thinking that the US will not control their machines---.

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## MultaniGuy

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Mr. Tully has done more than that---. This news has made the americans running around confused---it has made the indians go around in circles.
> 
> Bad news for americans---last bit of american influence over pakistan has disppeared now---terrible foreign policy by the americans.
> 
> Pres Duterte was right in stating that " any deal with the american president / govt cannot be trusted no more ".


I have always been against doing deals with USA. It always comes with conditions or restrictions.

China all the way. Even an animal would have realized that!

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## MastanKhan

MultaniGuy said:


> I have always been against doing deals with USA. It always comes with conditions or restrictions.
> 
> China all the way. Even an animal would have realized that!




Hi,

Doing deals with the US is not a problem---. The issue is that majority of nations do not know how to talk to the americans---.

American parliament basically has CAR SALESMAN'S mentality. They are truly the best of the best car salesmen that you would ever come across in your lifetime---so---in order to deal with them---you need to learn to sell your self better---.

If you were a history buff---you would understand that some nations have farmer mentality---some have warrior mentality and some have both---and some have separate warrior class and a separate farmer class---.

Nations who had a separate warrior class are very poor deal makers---like Japan---.

The western nations OTOH were farmers / warrior class---both put in one---.
and america leads them at the top---a true warrior / farmer class nation---.

True warrior dominant nations do not know how to make deals---their ego gets in the way---and true farmer class nations do not know how to take a stand and when to hammer the nail full blast---.

Americans are a nation that need to be looked in the eye and mthrfckd with a smile on your face and NO MALICE intended---. Be nice be polite be respectful---laugh and crack jokes but keep the priorities straight and foremost---.

Do not let them get away with murder and have a media cell constantly projecting your national interest---.

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## Zarvan

The Eagle said:


> What you folks think that IF, J-10C are coming and that is the only acquisition/new capability as usual? Think about the future ahead of us. Think about the limits you might expect to cross to strengthen defence & enhance capability. Think.....


Are you hinting towards something more then J-10 C ?


----------



## Basel

SQ8 said:


> Lets do it on a separate thread - but that would be interesting to see what they are able to do.



Please do a simulation based on over all capabilities (SEAD/DEAD) of our TRI services combined against Indian over all air defense .


----------



## Zarvan

m52k85 said:


> Sir, for that PAF will have to dual rack the Pl-15s on a flight of J-10s so as to launch a credible staggered (defensive - none-advancing or offensive - advancing) flow against a flight of incoming Rafales. Unfortunately we haven only seen Pl-12s being dual racked on the J-10s so far. So Im not sure if its a clear advantage or simply a more level chance..
> 
> Atleast, this is what I have gathered from the recent simulations done by people on this forum and elsewhere on Command.

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## luciferdd

Some images derived from the IR seeker of a Chinese SRAAM(you know what it is):

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## Reichsmarschall

luciferdd said:


> Some images derived from the IR seeker of a Chinese SRAMM(you know what it is):
> View attachment 808979
> View attachment 808980
> View attachment 808981


PL-10 dodgers ?

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## luciferdd

Reichsmarschall said:


> PL-10 dodgers ?


yes,99.9% it is.

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## Riz

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482471312207630336

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## StormBreaker

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> China will not sell J10 C to any other country than Pakistan---. The technology in this aircraft is very sensitive.
> 
> Exceptions do happen---but I very much doubt it---. Most nations will willingly go under the control of the US by getting the re-furbished F16's or the F-35's---thinking that the US will not control their machines---.


Your claim can be supported by the fact that CAC never took interest in marketing the platform otherwise with all the power China has, Surely they would have given incentives to buyers and 2-3 Major buyers would have been present already

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## SIPRA

StormBreaker said:


> Your claim can be supported by the fact that CAC never took interest in marketing the platform otherwise with all the power China has, Surely they would have given incentives to buyers and 2-3 Major buyers would have been present already



For such equipment, China is itself it's own market.

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## RealNapster

MastanKhan said:


> Exceptions do happen---but I very much doubt it---. Most nations will willingly go under the control of the US by getting the re-furbished F16's or the F-35's---thinking that the US will not control their machines-



USA do not control their machines, they control the bullets.


----------



## MH.Yang

StormBreaker said:


> Your claim can be supported by the fact that CAC never took interest in marketing the platform otherwise with all the power China has, Surely they would have given incentives to buyers and 2-3 Major buyers would have been present already


In fact, the production of j10c is limited by the production of WS10. J10, J11, J15, J16, J20 and other fighters are using this engine. Shenyang Liming Engine Company has insufficient production capacity, which is no secret in China.
Therefore, J10c focuses more on the domestic market.
Of course, there are other reasons. For example, j10c is an air superiority fighter. It lacks Multifunction capability and is only suitable for the air force of large countries.

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## Deino

MH.Yang said:


> ...
> Of course, there are other reasons. For example, j10c is an air superiority fighter. It lacks Multifunction capability and is only suitable for the air force of large countries.



Are you sure? You are correct, we rarely see a J-10C with a targeting pod and precision guided munitions like LGBs, but we know a few. IMO the J-10C is a full multirole fighter, there is no doubt about this,

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## StormBreaker

Deino said:


> Are you sure? You are correct, we rarely see a J-10C with a targeting pod and precision guided munitions like LGBs, but we know a few. IMO the J-10C is a full multirole fighter, there is no doubt about this,
> 
> View attachment 809002
> View attachment 809003
> View attachment 809004
> View attachment 809005
> View attachment 809006
> View attachment 809007


Deino, You should stop being surprised at small things.

There are soon going to be many things that will surprise the deino out of you. Things that you deem impossible.

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## Bleek

Deino said:


> Are you sure? You are correct, we rarely see a J-10C with a targeting pod and precision guided munitions like LGBs, but we know a few. IMO the J-10C is a full multirole fighter, there is no doubt about this,
> 
> View attachment 809002
> View attachment 809003
> View attachment 809004
> View attachment 809005
> View attachment 809006
> View attachment 809007


Are the wings supposed to be slightly bent or?


----------



## MH.Yang

Deino said:


> Are you sure? You are correct, we rarely see a J-10C with a targeting pod and precision guided munitions like LGBs, but we know a few. IMO the J-10C is a full multirole fighter, there is no doubt about this,
> 
> View attachment 809002
> View attachment 809003
> View attachment 809004
> View attachment 809005
> View attachment 809006
> View attachment 809007


You can't compare like this, it's unfair. The multi-function capability of J10C can only be compared with foreign competitor F16 (single engine high thrust) or domestic competitor J16, we all know the comparison results. 

J10C abdominal pylon can not carry medium-range ammunition, which is a great defect, because this will affect the mounting of the auxiliary oil tank. Moreover, the J10C design is not compact, and the height difference between canard and wing is very large, the canard wing has a large area, the wing sweep angle is also large. And it uses abdominal air intake. Of course, this will make J10C intake efficiency high and improve engine efficiency at high angle of attack, but it also leads to the increase of aircraft frontal projection and the increase of flight resistance at supersonic speed, that is also the reason why the early model of F16 let the pilot drive half lying down. Therefore, the max-range of J10C is affected. Considering the problem of J10C mounting auxiliary oil tank, its multifunction ability will certainly be affected. J10C Ground Weapons usually rely on two KD88S, plus the guidance pod and 3 auxiliary fuel tanks, there are only abdominal pylons left, but I haven't seen J10C carry more than 500kg weapons on abdominal pylons. How can we be satisfied with so few ground weapons? 

And I don't like J10C using YJ91 for anti radar warfare. Radar defense is usually very weak, why use supersonic missiles? Such excessive killing results in that J10C can only carry two YJ91.

Therefore, I don't think countries with limited budgets will consider using J10C. Who would like a fighter that can only be used in air combat? J10c relies heavily on the Chinese combat system. It was originally designed for the Chinese air force, while the F16 was designed for the world market. PAF needs to make a lot of efforts to integrate such an aircraft into Pakistan's combat system.

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## Bleek

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482601413306126337PAF survival plans with their minimal budget

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## Deino

StormBreaker said:


> Deino, You should stop being surprised at small things.
> 
> There are soon going to be many things that will surprise the deino out of you. Things that you deem impossible.




Oh, I'm well prepared fo any surprise, big surprises and even more ... and I'm also happy to get corrected - in fact i would be more than happy if Pakistan would get J-16s and J-16Ds - but these surprises must be real and clearly confirmed and not pure guessing like such claims "green means fuel and so every part in green - including the cockpit side-walls up to the canopy frame - is fuel! Such things are IMO ridiculous. But again ... hey, yes, surprise that old Deino! 


Bleek said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482601413306126337PAF survival plans with their minimal budget




Post of the day!!

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## JawadKKhan

MastanKhan said:


> Bad news for americans---last bit of american influence over pakistan has disppeared now---terrible foreign policy by the americans.



Last bit of american influence on Pakistan disappeared now ?







Not only USA is our top export market. We have trade surplus with US. That means we import much less stuff from US then we export. They still can influence us with economy. If they put duties on our export materials or deny entry we are doomed. We are in trade deficit with China massively.

I am sure, you are aware out IT industry almost solely run on US clients.

Secondly, don't you think PAF still needs US for maintenance, if not upgradation for 75 F-16s. These F-16s are currently most capable platform in the our service.

Lastly, we are over dependent on US technologies which we overlook. From computer processing units to GPS, everything is property of USA. I have thrown details in some other thread don't want to repeat all over but I disagree with the analysis that procuring J-10Cs will completely remove US influence. Yes it may reduce it a bit.. but completely remove? Not a chance until we become economically & technologically independent.

Cheers.

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## lcloo

Air to ground/sea surface configuration with laser guided bombs and AGM.







Air-to-air missiles deployed may include short-range air-to-air missiles such as the PL-8 and PL-10 (on J-10C), medium-range radar-guided air-to-air missiles such as the PL-12 and PL-15 (on J-10C), unguided and precision guided munitions such as laser-guided bombs, air-to-surface missile such as KD-88,[35] anti-ship missiles such as the YJ-91A,[35] and anti-radiation missiles such as the YJ-91.[35]

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## Trango Towers

Riz said:


> Some one told me that delta wing can’t support CFT , then why raphaaale have CFTs ?


Shouldn't listen to someone and use your own brain


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## Bleek

JawadKKhan said:


> Last bit of american influence on Pakistan disappeared now ?
> 
> View attachment 809027
> 
> 
> Not only USA is our top export market. We have trade surplus with US. That means we import much less stuff from US then we export. They still can influence us with economy. If they put duties on our export materials or deny entry we are doomed. We are in trade deficit with China massively.
> 
> I am sure, you are aware out IT industry almost solely run on US clients.
> 
> Secondly, don't you think PAF still needs US for maintenance, if not upgradation for 75 F-16s. These F-16s are currently most capable platform in the our service.
> 
> Lastly, we are over dependent on US technologies which we overlook. From computer processing units to GPS, everything is property of USA. I have thrown details in some other thread don't want to repeat all over but I disagree with the analysis that procuring J-10Cs will completely remove US influence. Yes it may reduce it a bit.. but completely remove? Not a chance until we become economically & technologically independent.
> 
> Cheers.


Our foreign policy towards USA should always attempt to be postitive/friendly or neutral at the very least, we are not in the position to challenge them openly. And no one can save our as#es either. We have a very long way to go until then, but currently US still dominates globally, although they are being challenged by China

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## Polestar 2

JawadKKhan said:


> Last bit of american influence on Pakistan disappeared now ?
> 
> View attachment 809027
> 
> 
> Not only USA is our top export market. We have trade surplus with US. That means we import much less stuff from US then we export. They still can influence us with economy. If they put duties on our export materials or deny entry we are doomed. We are in trade deficit with China massively.
> 
> I am sure, you are aware out IT industry almost solely run on US clients.
> 
> Secondly, don't you think PAF still needs US for maintenance, if not upgradation for 75 F-16s. These F-16s are currently most capable platform in the our service.
> 
> Lastly, we are over dependent on US technologies which we overlook. From computer processing units to GPS, everything is property of USA. I have thrown details in some other thread don't want to repeat all over but I disagree with the analysis that procuring J-10Cs will completely remove US influence. Yes it may reduce it a bit.. but completely remove? Not a chance until we become economically & technologically independent.
> 
> Cheers.


Pakistan armed forces has already signed up for China beidou 3 gps system. Precisely, Pakistan economy running on IT sector is a big mistakes as manufacturing shall grap a bigger shares with a huge young population. Manufacturing feed most mouth, not IT white collar jobs. Pakistan biggest importer are China and most are essential items and not luxury goods. It is Chinese low price machinery and commodities that keep Pakistan inflation much lower, business competitive.

PAF is switching from F-16 to J-10. Same as army and navy using almost all Chinese weaponery.


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## JawadKKhan

Polestar 2 said:


> Pakistan armed forces has already signed up for China beidou 3 gps system. Precisely, Pakistan economy running on IT sector is a big mistakes as manufacturing shall grap a bigger shares with a huge young population. Manufacturing feed most mouth, not IT white collar jobs. Pakistan biggest importer are China and most are essential items and not luxury goods. It is Chinese low price machinery and commodities that keep Pakistan inflation much lower.
> 
> PAF is switching from F-16 to J-10. Same as army and navy using almost all Chinese weaponery.


No denying chinese equipment in now dominant in the armed forces. But saying US influence is completely over is not correct. The country's earning is through Exports. You can see our economy is on the edge. Every billion dollar is extremely important for us. They have tremendous influence on us because of economy. Our exports / economy is not diversified atm. Once we have enough exports and export markets only then we can claim our independence. Our economy is surviving on those exports for now.

US looking over trade organizations, their ability to sanction countries, their ability to influence UN, FATF and other organisations is a glimpse of what that super power can influence upon us. 

If you dig some research papers, you will see US has potentially ability to create internet blackout on third world countries.. not just because they have the tech giants, but also because of all the infrastructure they have. all the data they have, all the communication satellites and more..

Plus, if we have to switch to ALL chinese, don't you think we'd become overwhelmingly dependent on China?. Is it good for us ?. Nope we must keep balance. China is our great friend, but every country must think of its own strategic interests in long run.

Edit: Pakistan national policy is also stating same thing to create balance and not join any camp.. Pakistan also strives for good relations with ALL countries especially US & China. Policy makers know this.. However, we awaam sometimes think otherwise. However, J-10C is a good acquisition. it was only sensible acquisition given circumstances of our economy & foreign policy.

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## Bleek

Polestar 2 said:


> Pakistan armed forces has already signed up for China beidou 3 gps system. Precisely, Pakistan economy running on IT sector is a big mistakes as manufacturing shall grap a bigger shares with a huge young population. Manufacturing feed most mouth, not IT white collar jobs. Pakistan biggest importer are China and most are essential items and not luxury goods. It is Chinese low price machinery and commodities that keep Pakistan inflation much lower.
> 
> PAF is switching from F-16 to J-10. Same as army and navy using almost all Chinese weaponery.


How is it wise to switch from F-16 to J-10C, when the F-16's multi-role capabilities are far better, whereas the J-10C is an air superiority focused platform? (As expressed by others.)

5th generation jet seems more probable to replace the F-16s

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## Polestar 2

JawadKKhan said:


> No denying chinese equipment in now dominant in the armed forces. But saying US influence is completely over is not correct. The country's earning is through Exports. You can see our economy is on the edge. Every billion dollar is extremely important for us. They have tremendous influence on us because of economy. Our exports / economy is not diversified atm. Once we have enough exports and export markets only then we can claim our independence. Our economy is surviving on those exports for now.
> 
> US looking over trade organizations, their ability to sanction countries, their ability to influence UN, FATF and other organisations is a glimpse of what that super power can influence upon us.
> 
> If you dig some research papers, you will see US has potentially ability to create internet blackout on third world countries.. not just because they have the tech giants, but also because of all the infrastructure they have. all the data they have, all the communication satellites and more..
> 
> Plus, if we have to switch to ALL chinese, don't you think we'd become overwhelmingly dependent on China?. Is it good for us ?. Nope we must keep balance. China is our great friend, but every country must think of its own strategic interests in long run.
> 
> Edit: Pakistan national policy is also stating same thing to create balance and not join any camp.. Pakistan also strives for good relations with ALL countries especially US & China. Policy makers know this.. However, we awaam sometimes think otherwise. However, J-10C is a good acquisition. it was only sensible acquisition given circumstances of our economy & foreign policy.


Pakistan too dependent on China is not our making but US continue harmful policy that force Pakistan to depend on China. 

Same as China semi con chips and military. If without US sanction, China wouldnt so rely on our own industries capacity. Luckily, we are a major countries and has capacity to depend on ourselves.

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## TNT

JawadKKhan said:


> Last bit of american influence on Pakistan disappeared now ?
> 
> View attachment 809027
> 
> 
> Not only USA is our top export market. We have trade surplus with US. That means we import much less stuff from US then we export. They still can influence us with economy. If they put duties on our export materials or deny entry we are doomed. We are in trade deficit with China massively.
> 
> I am sure, you are aware out IT industry almost solely run on US clients.
> 
> Secondly, don't you think PAF still needs US for maintenance, if not upgradation for 75 F-16s. These F-16s are currently most capable platform in the our service.
> 
> Lastly, we are over dependent on US technologies which we overlook. From computer processing units to GPS, everything is property of USA. I have thrown details in some other thread don't want to repeat all over but I disagree with the analysis that procuring J-10Cs will completely remove US influence. Yes it may reduce it a bit.. but completely remove? Not a chance until we become economically & technologically independent.
> 
> Cheers.



Finally someone who shows the reality. Fanboys are warning US that if u dnt give us F16Vs then all ur influence is gone lolz. Seems most fanboys are oblivious to real life issues like economy. 
This list also shows that there are so called brotherly counteies that does not contribute to our economy and yet we jump up and down for them. See our minimal exports to countries like saudi, Turkey, Malaysia. 
We should strictly divert to geo economics and tell everyone that our only friend is the nation that does business with us and helps our economy.

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## Ali_Baba

Bleek said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482601413306126337PAF survival plans with their minimal budget



The problem with the Mirages are that it required 2 Mirages to deliver just 1 H-4 SOW against India. It then took JF17s and F16s flying top cover to protect those two Mirages.

It takes 1 Rafale to deliver 2 SCALPS and it can fight itself in and out of a target at both short, medium and long ranges. Effectively doing the same function as 3 PAF planes currently at a minimium. That is where the multipler for aircraft like the Rafale come into the equation.

The Mirages are no longer effective in the challenges that Pakistan faces - a JF17 Block III with 2 Baburs/CM-400s/Ra'ads, 1 under each wing with 2 PL15s and 2 SD-10s on dual racks is a far more effective package. The sooner the JF17 Block IIIs can replace those legacy flying coke cans - the better. The lack of modern payload options, modern BVR avionics is a real problem for the Mirage fleet now as it needs secondary assets to protect it. Secondary assets that should really be doing their own strike operations. Feb 2019 showed both its strength and weaknesses of the legacy platform. Strength in that PAF has some SOW capabililty. However, It needed a total of 2 Mirages with 4 crew-members to deliver just one SOW... and it then had to be guided to its target via Line of Sight putting that aircraft and crew at very significant risk.

Mirages have had their time and the Mirage fanboys in the PAF, here and elsewhere need to realise that - and people need to understand that in a full war, they are a hinderance - not a help as they are so limited in what they can do and the amount of extra support they need to do that small function ontop.

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## StormBreaker

Deino said:


> Oh, I'm well prepared fo any surprise, big surprises and even more ... and I'm also happy to get corrected - in fact i would be more than happy if Pakistan would get J-16s and J-16Ds - but these surprises must be real and clearly confirmed and not pure guessing like such claims "green means fuel and so every part in green - including the cockpit side-walls up to the canopy frame - is fuel! Such things are IMO ridiculous. But again ... hey, yes, surprise that old Deino!
> 
> 
> 
> Post of the day!!


I don’t recall mentioning anything specific about surprises but well…


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## MastanKhan

JawadKKhan said:


> Last bit of american influence on Pakistan disappeared now ?
> 
> View attachment 809027
> 
> 
> Not only USA is our top export market. We have trade surplus with US. That means we import much less stuff from US then we export. They still can influence us with economy. If they put duties on our export materials or deny entry we are doomed. We are in trade deficit with China massively.
> 
> I am sure, you are aware out IT industry almost solely run on US clients.
> 
> Secondly, don't you think PAF still needs US for maintenance, if not upgradation for 75 F-16s. These F-16s are currently most capable platform in the our service.
> 
> Lastly, we are over dependent on US technologies which we overlook. From computer processing units to GPS, everything is property of USA. I have thrown details in some other thread don't want to repeat all over but I disagree with the analysis that procuring J-10Cs will completely remove US influence. Yes it may reduce it a bit.. but completely remove? Not a chance until we become economically & technologically independent.
> 
> Cheers.



Hi,

What you wrote is all well and good---but when the Paf gets the J10 C's---it is like a massive piece of iceberg has broken off the shelf---.

Instead of the US being in a position of influence---it has slid down the pole.

The thing is that 30-40-50-60 F16's would not have done anything other than bring peace sooner to the sub-continent---.

As Pres Duterte stated about american congressmen and senators---the car salesmen of american politics---cannot trust the US to stand by its deals

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## tphuang

It's hard to see China exporting J-10 to anyone else in the near future for a number of reasons. First of all, China already has an export oriented aircraft in JF-17. Pakistan have really done a great job of working with China to develop this aircraft to be a capable aircraft. It has also done a great job of helping to promote this aircraft. You have all the traditional US allies that is or will be F-35 users. You have all the other users of 4+ generation aircraft that would have no reason to buy J-10s. For vast majority of the remaining countries, JF-17 probably fills all of their need. Now, this will change in the next generation when J-31/35 will likely be the most capable and stealthy non-American fighter jet available for purchase. That's probably only 8 years away. I don't see China finding another suitable export partner for J-10 before that. Maybe Iran? But I don't know if that's a good idea.

The other area I want to address is multi-role capabilities of J-10. It has not been used as a multi-role aircraft within PLAAF due to the presence of flankers. You simply can't carry as much fuel or weapon on a J-10 as J-16. J-16 can also carry more powerful radar and EW suites and pods than j-10. However, there is nothing fundamentally preventing it from a multi-role aircraft within PAF. It is the same size as F-16 and larger than JF-17. It has a more powerful engine than both F-16 and JF-17, so can carry more fuel and weaponry. With its higher thrust engine, it can carry more powerful EW suite and have better situation better than F-16 and JF-17. Keep in mind that F-16 Block 50 is using 90s era avionics at this point, so cannot be as survivable going into a well defended air space as J-10C. On top of that, US has also placed stringent usage requirement on PAF F-16s. J-10 will also always have an advantage over JF-17 in survivability, range and payload due to its larger airframe, better wing loading, better T/W ratio and more powerful engine. Remember, China is continuously upgrading WS-10 series due to J-20 requirements. The same level of investment simply does not exist for RD-93s.

Again, PAF will get an initial batch of J-10Cs which will probably be almost the same as the ones PLAAF has. If it likes the aircraft, then it can work with CAC to produce a more multi-role variant that uses a more powerful engine and a more multi-role radar. Of course, all of this depends on how PAF views the aircraft and how much it's willing to spend to develop additional capabilities.

Long term, why would PAF keep F-16s around if it can get J-31/35 in 8 to 10 years? The majority of them are already 35 to 40 years old. They are unlikely to be upgraded and can only used in ways approved by the American government. At some point, PAF needs to move on from F-16. That's not a bad thing unless you think America will sell PAF F-35s.

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## MastanKhan

tphuang said:


> Long term, *why would PAF keep F-16s around *if t can get J-31/35 in 8 to 10 years? The majority of them are already 35 to 40 years old. They are unlikely to be upgraded and can only used in ways approved by the American government. At some point, PAF needs to move on from F-16. That's not a bad thing unless you think America will sell PAF F-35s.



Hi,

Training with and against the usaf.


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## MultaniGuy

JawadKKhan said:


> Last bit of american influence on Pakistan disappeared now ?
> 
> View attachment 809027
> 
> 
> Not only USA is our top export market. We have trade surplus with US. That means we import much less stuff from US then we export. They still can influence us with economy. If they put duties on our export materials or deny entry we are doomed. We are in trade deficit with China massively.
> 
> I am sure, you are aware out IT industry almost solely run on US clients.
> 
> Secondly, don't you think PAF still needs US for maintenance, if not upgradation for 75 F-16s. These F-16s are currently most capable platform in the our service.
> 
> Lastly, we are over dependent on US technologies which we overlook. From computer processing units to GPS, everything is property of USA. I have thrown details in some other thread don't want to repeat all over but I disagree with the analysis that procuring J-10Cs will completely remove US influence. Yes it may reduce it a bit.. but completely remove? Not a chance until we become economically & technologically independent.
> 
> Cheers.


I hope China replaces USA as Pakistan's largest export partner.


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## StormBreaker

MultaniGuy said:


> I hope China replaces USA as Pakistan's largest export partner.


Not possible for the foreseeable future. You have to understand the “nature” of a country before making childish pro china “bhai bhai” statements.

China is no angel, We are in a debt trap in the longer run. Chinese influence at the moment is more than we ever should have wished for and what you are saying would be a death trap for Pakistan just like USA has been for 5 decades.

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## MultaniGuy

StormBreaker said:


> Not possible for the foreseeable future. You have to understand the “nature” of a country before making childish pro china “bhai bhai” statements.
> 
> China is no angel, We are in a debt trap in the longer run. Chinese influence at the moment is more than we ever should have wished for and what you are saying would be a death trap for Pakistan just like USA has been for 5 decades.


Perhaps you are right. We should seek a balance for Pakistan's interests.
However there were many times USA had betrayed us. Why should we trust USA.

China is a rising power in the world. Why should we not join China as they become the world's largest economy.
Eventually China will eclipse USA as the world's largest economy.


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## Shotgunner51

tphuang said:


> The other area I want to address is multi-role capabilities of J-10. It has not been used as a multi-role aircraft within PLAAF due to the presence of flankers.


J-10 was born an A2A fighter (hi-speed interceptor in Soviet/NK terminology), but such role has long been taken over by J-11B and J-20, which have extended such role into long range air superiority, stealth penetration to hit enemy AWAC etc. Of course J-10 can perform good aerial combat if such situation arise, but that has just become one of its many "multi-roles".

In recent years J-10 was drilled hard for A2G, just check the pics posted above by @Deino and @lcloo. With lower demand for maintenance and runway, J-10 can be deployed closer to battlefields for fast response, and can carry out low altitude penetration (hence no need for passive LO or active electronic suppression) especially over favorable terrains. Imagine missions like striking a mobile radar, a bunker or a ballistic missile TEL hiding in the mountains. J-10's agility champs all PLAAF peers, PLAAF won't fly the heavy flankers into low altitude at night (& adverse weather) unless it's required in a long range mission beyond reach of J-10, let alone J-20.

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## tphuang

Shotgunner51 said:


> J-10 was born an A2A fighter (hi-speed interceptor in Soviet/NK terminology), but such role has long been taken over by J-11B and J-20, which have extended such role into long range air superiority, stealth penetration to hit enemy AWAC etc. Of course J-10 can perform good aerial combat if such situation arise, but that has just become one of its many "multi-roles".
> 
> In recent years J-10 was drilled hard for A2G, just check the pics posted above by @Deino and @lcloo. With lower demand for maintenance and runway, J-10 can be deployed closer to battlefields for fast response, and can carry out low altitude penetration (hence no need for passive LO or active electronic suppression) especially over favorable terrains. Imagine missions like striking a mobile radar, a bunker or a ballistic missile TEL hiding in the mountains. J-10's agility champs all PLAAF peers, PLAAF won't fly the heavy flankers into low altitude at night (& adverse weather) unless it's required in a long range mission beyond reach of J-10, let alone J-20.


Aside from J-20 (which is limited in numbers), the only fighter jet comparable to J-10C in air superiority/interceptor role within PLAAF is J-16. That's why PAF is bringing it in for the Rafale threat. There is a lot of speculation about J-11D. I don't see why that particular variant is needed when J-16 is such a complete package.

Of course, J-10C can perform ground attack, tactical strikes, SEAD and EW type of roles, but PLAAF has a much better aircraft for that in j-16. Before J-16 came, it was JH-7A doing most of that role. Range + payload does a make difference in these things. With PAF, it's main competition for this would be JF-17. As long as PAF is willing to make the investment, I think J-10C would be the best platform for this.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

If Russia allows


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Doing deals with the US is not a problem---. The issue is that majority of nations do not know how to talk to the americans---.
> 
> American parliament basically has CAR SALESMAN'S mentality. They are truly the best of the best car salesmen that you would ever come across in your lifetime---so---in order to deal with them---you need to learn to sell your self better---.
> 
> If you were a history buff---you would understand that some nations have farmer mentality---some have warrior mentality and some have both---and some have separate warrior class and a separate farmer class---.
> 
> Nations who had a separate warrior class are very poor deal makers---like Japan---.
> 
> The western nations OTOH were farmers / warrior class---both put in one---.
> and america leads them at the top---a true warrior / farmer class nation---.
> 
> True warrior dominant nations do not know how to make deals---their ego gets in the way---and true farmer class nations do not know how to take a stand and when to hammer the nail full blast---.
> 
> Americans are a nation that need to be looked in the eye and mthrfckd with a smile on your face and NO MALICE intended---. Be nice be polite be respectful---laugh and crack jokes but keep the priorities straight and foremost---.
> 
> Do not let them get away with murder and have a media cell constantly projecting your national interest---.


Then there're the Semitic races, who are 24/7 _Tujjars_ always out for bargaining a deal, even with the GOD...

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## Waiting

What about J 20, instead ???

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## MastanKhan

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> If Russia allows
> 
> Then there're the Semitic races, who are 24/7 _Tujjars_ always out for bargaining a deal, even with the GOD...



Hi,

That is exactly what one of them shared with me when I worked in Beverly Hills---.

"We have to sell the americans 24/7 that we are the best deal for them".

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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> Are you hinting towards something more then J-10 C ?



Think big Zarvan Bhai. I am not confirming about J-10C but a lot is happening. Bigger things at play. When Pakistan says to maintain an edge over the rival; it is not just about a single platform or one of the capabilities. Keeping an edge over the adversary means you are dominating in every department & in domain of warfare. I will ask for an apology from everyone before saying that whenever we hear a news about an equipment to be procured by any arm of Military; unfortunately very few try to see beyond the material made item. Very few try to ponder upon the capabilities, the advancing strategies and developing tactics. Very few try to look at it in a different manners such as a modern tech & working beyond than a platform. J-10C might appears to be merely a fighter aircraft but PAF is looking beyond the mere acquisition and these fruits will come to you for decades and onward. Let see if J-10C are particularly coming or not but what I am saying is that; the capability & building future defence will be witnesses in coming days or months or may take an year.

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## Trailer23

Deino said:


> Oh, I'm well prepared fo any surprise, big surprises and even more ... and I'm also happy to get corrected - in fact i would be more than happy if Pakistan would get J-16s and J-16Ds


You & me both...

But everytime someone brings up J-11, J-15 and/or J-16 in the Pakistan Air Force/Navy discussion - I can't help but shake my head  .

Obviously there are those who believe in Santa (too), but when you ask them for anything short of evidence - they go off saying that we don't know jack.

The J-11, J-15 and/or J-16 discussions are as absurd as EFT, GripenNG, F-35, F/A-18, F-22 etc.

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## Bleek

Imran Khan said:


> at least we will not buy half cooked khusra jet


Looks don't matter man, I don't like how it looks either, but just hope it can perform well and bring results, because it seems like it's almost certain at this point


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## untitled

Imran Khan said:


> at least we will not buy half cooked khusra jet


J-10 or J-35 or both?


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## untitled

Imran Khan said:


> View attachment 809358
> 
> 
> j-10 look like mummy daddy kid . nhi lary ga ye


Still hoping for the J-14?

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## Imran Khan

untitled said:


> Still hoping for the J-14?


no i m not . i want j21 or 31 or azam even tai 5th bhi chaly ga


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## JawadKKhan

Waiting said:


> What about J 20, instead ???


Dear Waiting.. wait. 



Imran Khan said:


> no i m not . i want j21 or 31 or azam even tai 5th bhi chaly ga



Na jee Khan saab.. Asi tay Jayy Dasss hee lesan

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## Trailer23

Imran Khan said:


> at least we will not buy half cooked khusra jet


Challo, we'll cancel the J-10C & _continue_ to keep flying your all-time favorite & have our lads _continue_ to maintain it - day & nite.

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## Shotgunner51

Trailer23 said:


> You & me both...
> 
> But everytime someone brings up J-11, J-15 and/or J-16 in the Pakistan Air Force/Navy discussion - I can't help but shake my head  .
> 
> Obviously there are those who believe in Santa (too), but when you ask them for anything short of evidence - they go off saying that we don't know jack.
> 
> The J-11, J-15 and/or J-16 discussions are as absurd as EFT, GripenNG, F-35, F/A-18, F-22 etc.


Agree bro, except EFT is not an absurd dream, it pales vs US tech but for sure way above anything French, let alone that small Swedish jet. Austria has long been trying to get rid of their EFTs, PAF may join the bid, or approach other EFT users who may resell. From another perspective, in fact Austria is the only European user outside the EFT shareholding countries while all other sales fell, EFT consortium should be more than happy to take PAF as customer.









Indonesia interested in unpopular Austrian Eurofighter Typhoons


The Austrian authorities received a letter of intent from the Indonesian government to acquire the fleet of fifteen Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets that have been the target of constant debate for the last two decades.




www.aerotime.aero




.


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## TaimiKhan

Guys dont worry, J10Cs are coming in a few days / weeks. Naysayers will soon get their answer. 
For now a sqd or so, 2nd sqd later. 
And yeah Turkish drones also inducted, for now just a couple, more on the way. 
And hopefully 02 IL-76s also will be seen in near future.

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## untitled

TaimiKhan said:


> And hopefully 02 IL-76s also will be seen in near future.


Il76 or 78s?


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## Trailer23

Shotgunner51 said:


> Agree bro, but EFT is not an absurd dream and it can also beat Rafale hands down. Austria has long been trying to get rid of their EFTs, PAF may join the bid, or approach other EFT users who may resell. From another perspective, in fact Austria is the only European user outside the EFT shareholding countries while all other sales fell, EFT consortium should be more than happy to take PAF as customer.


I think PAF has already exhausted all its funds with all the purchases that are coming to lite. Besides, I don't think PAF is in any position to maintain those particular birds. Its anyone's guess why all its operators are now selling or putting them in storage.

Indonesia has been dancing around that EFT acquisition since the summer of 2020. Not sure if they dropped the idea around the time when they started taking interest in the F-15EX.


TaimiKhan said:


> And hopefully 02 IL-76s also will be seen in near future.


"Hopefully"..., more like sadly.

If anything that needs change/modernization in our Air Force are our Air Refuelers. We have Four of those fuel-guzzlers & on a good day, 2 are Airworthy.

Forget J-20 for a while. PAF should have pushed hard for the new & improved Y-20 Air Refuelers.

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## Fawad alam

Last night I read an article in Dawn news about J10 induction and the author claimed that we may add "F" in the name,
Does it means that we are going to start a local assembly line of JF10 plane?


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## untitled

Fawad alam said:


> Last night I read an article in Dawn news about J10 induction and the author claimed that we may add "F" in the name,


That's likely because of PAF's tradition of giving Chinese aircraft a 'westernised' name:
The J-6 became the F-6
J-7 became F-7
Q-5 became the A-5
The Chinese Il-28 became the B-56

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## HRK

Fawad alam said:


> Last night I read an article in Dawn news about J10 induction and the author claimed that we may add "F" in the name,
> Does it means that we are going to start a local assembly line of JF10 plane?


Chinese use "J" for their fighter planes we use "F" for our fighter planes like J-7= F-7,

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## CodeforFood

SQ8 said:


> I use automobiles because they are a very common subject anyone can relate to.


Is tanga considered automobile sir? I drive a Tesla and of course a truck for my off-road adventures(driven Audi, bmws, merz etc). I hardly get the opportunity to test any handling though. I bet I can't take my Tesla, for my hunting trips. I might be able to take a tanga though... We sometime overthink and overemphasize...


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## Basel

Deino said:


> Yes, added on a test-platform but surely not on any operational J-10C. In fact we know only one - maybe plus a second - PLAAF unit operating WS-10B powered ones, but we know already several J-10Cs with that engine and simply NONE - in fact not a single one - has the TVC nozzle.
> 
> In fact exactly the opposite: Only one single J-10B is using it.
> 
> As such, the chance, the PAF might get as a first uses a TVC-equipped J-10C is IMO non-existent.



What will TVC add in terms of performance of J-10C?? Will it become on par with EFT or Rafale in terms or maneuverability, specially in dog fights??


----------



## Fawad alam

HRK said:


> Chinese use "J" for their fighter planes we use "F" for you fighter planes like J-8= F-8,


If we add "F" which is suggested by author then its going to become "JF" which is Joint Fighter or local assembly in my guess.
And without local assembly you are correct.


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## Deino

Trailer23 said:


> ...
> 
> Forget J-20 for a while. PAF should have pushed hard for the new & improved Y-20 Air Refuelers.




But you know this is a photoshop-fake?


----------



## Deino

Basel said:


> What will TVC add in terms of performance of J-10C?? Will it become on par with EFT or Rafale in terms or maneuverability, specially in dog fights??




Since there won't be TVC, this discussion is useless.

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## siegecrossbow

Fawad alam said:


> Last night I read an article in Dawn news about J10 induction and the author claimed that we may add "F" in the name,
> Does it means that we are going to start a local assembly line of JF10 plane?



Why would they? J-10 is not a joint developed fighter.

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## SD 10

siegecrossbow said:


> Why would they? J-10 is not a joint developed fighter.


Well its dawn so everything is possible there

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## Trailer23

Deino said:


> But you know this is a photoshop-fake?


I was just looking for a Y-20 refueling.

Just went for the 1st one with a side view.

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## Deino

Trailer23 said:


> I was just looking for a Y-20 refueling.
> 
> Just went for the 1st one with a side view.




ok ... but the tell-take is the IFR-boom, which is wrong.

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## arjunk

Basel said:


> What will TVC add in terms of performance of J-10C?? Will it become on par with EFT or Rafale in terms or maneuverability, specially in dog fights??


What will antimatter propelled hypersonic supermanoeuvrable quantum laser IRST dual TVC engined PL-15ABCDELGBTQ+ add in terms of performance of J-10C?

Who the **** knows or cares, we are never getting any of it because it is pointless and overkill against India anyway.

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## CodeforFood

MultaniGuy said:


> I hope China replaces USA as Pakistan's largest export partner.


Yeah put all the eggs in one basket.

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## siegecrossbow

arjunk said:


> What will antimatter propelled hypersonic supermanoeuvrable quantum laser IRST dual TVC engined *PL-15ABCDELGBTQ+* add in terms of performance of J-10C?
> 
> Who the **** knows or cares, we are never getting any of it because it is pointless and overkill against India anyway.



Does that missile blow enemy fighter into rainbow unicorn shaped explosions?

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## MajesticPug

HRK said:


> Chinese use "J" for their fighter planes we use "F" for our fighter planes like J-7= F-7,



I know this is not happening anytime soon but what if China exports its J-16 to Pakistan? F-16?  CF-16? But J16 doesn't look like American F16 at all and not even related in bloodline.

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## _NOBODY_

siegecrossbow said:


> Does that missile blow enemy fighter into rainbow unicorn shaped explosions?


It also has the capability to cancel all enemy pilots on twitter.

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## HRK

MajesticPug said:


> I know this is not happening anytime soon but what if China exports its J-16 to Pakistan? F-16?  CF-16? But J16 doesn't look like American F16 at all and not even related in bloodline.


good one .... I know its a hypothetical scenario but if and when the supposed situation would occur it would have option to use 'FA' [Fighter Attack] designation


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## NA71

this man revealed that 30 j 10c have been given on deferred payment basis.....jab paissey hon tu dey dein gay....
and also confirming J10c fly past.watch


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## Basel

Deino said:


> Since there won't be TVC, this discussion is useless.



Kindly provide source for your claim.


arjunk said:


> What will antimatter propelled hypersonic supermanoeuvrable quantum laser IRST dual TVC engined PL-15ABCDELGBTQ+ add in terms of performance of J-10C?
> 
> Who the **** knows or cares, we are never getting any of it because it is pointless and overkill against India anyway.



Kindly provide source for your claims.

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## Deino

Basel said:


> Kindly provide source for your claim.
> 
> 
> Kindly provide source for your claims.




Ahh … so you claim the most ridiculous stuff and anyone who sticks to reality has to prove?? So you are also sure that there is intelligent live on Venus especially since I cannot prove there is none?

Funny, indeed …

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## Trailer23

NA71 said:


> *this man revealed...*


Those magic words with Haroon Rasheed featured on the Thumbnail of a video...

Sorry, I stopped reading after that.

Haroon sahab hasn't been relevant for 2-decades now. He sits on this show & pretends that he has all this inside information that only appears to be available to him.

Doesn't he have grandkids he wanna spend time with before the...curtains fall.

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## Waiting

JawadKKhan said:


> Dear Waiting.. wait.
> 
> 
> 
> Na jee Khan saab.. Asi tay Jayy Dasss hee lesan


Sir, I m waiting, so waiting, but this wait is not so long, I think. Thanx for your advice


----------



## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> Since there won't be TVC, this discussion is useless.



Hi,

Since when any discussion about additions or changes to defense related weapons system is useless.

Specultions about weapons systems inherent capabilties and supposed enhance capabilities have always been a central focus for discussions.

2 weeks ago not many believed J10's coming to pakistan---.

You were the leader making fun of those who stated that.

Years ago I stated that the J10's would be coming free of cost---you hurled your worst insults at pakistan and me.

Now the news is that the J10's would indeed be free of cost once pakistan gets them---.

First SD10 was doubtful and you made fun about the pakistan getting the PL15---now that the PL15 is assured you will insult those who state that the next higher chinese BVR would not be available to pakistan---.

Son---you are getting 'bit'ch' slapped about everything you negated about pakistan and yet you are here on this pakistani forum.

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## MH.Yang

untitled said:


> That's likely because of PAF's tradition of giving Chinese aircraft a 'westernised' name:
> The J-6 became the F-6
> J-7 became F-7
> Q-5 became the A-5
> The Chinese Il-28 became the B-56



If Pakistan buys J35 from China in the future…
F35?

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## untitled

MH.Yang said:


> If Pakistan buys J35 from China in the future…
> F35?


Let's see how the J-10 induction goes and see whether it is renamed or not. I personally think that PAF should stick to J-10 this time

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## ARMalik

I think we should also look at the bigger picture. A few hints below. 

1- USA:
*F-15 design forms the basic of ---> F-22 Raptor and F-35. *F-15 semi stealth

2- China:
*J-10 design forms the basic of ---> J-20.* J-10 semi stealth.

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## Thorough Pro

What the F is wrong with Pakistani's beggar mentality, that title on the vid is piss poor



NA71 said:


>

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## MastanKhan

Thorough Pro said:


> What the F is wrong with Pakistani's beggar mentality, that title on the vid is piss poor



Hi,

It is more like an insult hurled at the US---.

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> ....
> 
> 2 weeks ago not many believed J10's coming to pakistan---.
> 
> You were the leader making fun of those who stated that. (1)
> 
> Years ago I stated that the J10's would be coming free of cost---you hurled your worst insults at pakistan and me. (2)
> 
> Now the news is that the J10's would indeed be free of cost once pakistan gets them---. (3)
> 
> First SD10 was doubtful and you made fun about the pakistan getting the PL15---now that the PL15 is assured you will insult those who state that the next higher chinese BVR would not be available to pakistan---. (4)
> 
> Son---you are getting 'bit'ch' slapped about everything you negated about pakistan and yet you are here on this pakistani forum. (5)




Oh well, like an old dog you are happy again to have found an old bone bone to chew but again you are lying!

Just to set things right:

*You were the leader making fun of those who stated that. (1) - *No I wasn't. In fact i always said, the J-10C is a linkely option and if Pakistan wants an interim type before Azm, the J-10 is the ONLY option.

*you hurled your worst insults at pakistan and me. (2) -* No, I didn't ... all i said, nothing is for free!

*Now the news is that the J10's would indeed be free of cost once pakistan gets them---. (3) -* NO, there are in fact NO news, they are for free, at least no credible & reliable news (but since you believe the Block 3 uses an Itlatian engine and AMRAAM, maybe you should check your sources you rely - or shall I say lie  - on?

*First SD10 was doubtful and you made fun about the pakistan getting the PL15---now that the PL15 is assured you will insult those who state that the next higher chinese BVR would not be available to pakistan---. (4) - *Again NO, I never questioned the SD-10 since this was always part of the package for the JF-17 and similar I never questioned the PL-15 since it is and was always the only logical element, All I questioned was that PL-15s are already in service and I questioned the two known images as faked. but hey any question is an insult for you as it seems.

Son---*you are getting 'bit'ch' slapped about everything you negated about pakistan* and yet you are here on this pakistani forum. (5) - fact check again: Yes, Paksitan indeed got as per your claim JH-7, J-15, J-16, J-20, 055 DDG and the Liaoning last week, so indeed I got *'bit'ch' slapped about everything you negated about pakistan!* Or wait, who claimed all this stuff and now got *'bit'ch' slapped about everything he claimed about pakistan!? *

Anyway again, you should consult a doctor, Tourette syndrome is quite annoying for others.

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## arjunk

siegecrossbow said:


> Does that missile blow enemy fighter into rainbow unicorn shaped explosions?



It turns the pilot into a ladyboy and then they are arrested by the Chinese police for being a ladyboy.


----------



## python-000

MH.Yang said:


> If Pakistan buys J35 from China in the future…
> F35?


Hope So...


----------



## NA71

Deino said:


> Oh well, like an old dog you are happy again to have found an old bone bone to chew but again you are lying!
> 
> Just to set things right:
> 
> *You were the leader making fun of those who stated that. (1) - *No I wasn't. In fact i always said, the J-10C is a linkely option and if Pakistan wants an interim type before Azm, the J-10 is the ONLY option.
> 
> *you hurled your worst insults at pakistan and me. (2) -* No, I didn't ... all i said, nothing is for free!
> 
> *Now the news is that the J10's would indeed be free of cost once pakistan gets them---. (3) -* NO, there are in fact NO news, they are for free, at least no credible & reliable news (but since you believe the Block 3 uses an Itlatian engine and AMRAAM, maybe you should check your sources you rely - or shall I say lie  - on?
> 
> *First SD10 was doubtful and you made fun about the pakistan getting the PL15---now that the PL15 is assured you will insult those who state that the next higher chinese BVR would not be available to pakistan---. (4) - *Again NO, I never questioned the SD-10 since this was always part of the package for the JF-17 and similar I never questioned the PL-15 since it is and was always the only logical element, All I questioned was that PL-15s are already in service and I questioned the two known images as faked. but hey any question is an insult for you as it seems.
> 
> Son---*you are getting 'bit'ch' slapped about everything you negated about pakistan* and yet you are here on this pakistani forum. (5) - fact check again: Yes, Paksitan indeed got as per your claim JH-7, J-15, J-16, J-20, 055 DDG and the Liaoning last week, so indeed I got *'bit'ch' slapped about everything you negated about pakistan!* Or wait, who claimed all this stuff and now got *'bit'ch' slapped about everything he claimed about pakistan!? *
> 
> Anyway again, you should consult a doctor, Tourette syndrome is quite annoying for others.



Too harsh....

PDF is converting into old ladies chat room

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## Trango Towers

NA71 said:


> this man revealed that 30 j 10c have been given on deferred payment basis.....jab paissey hon tu dey dein gay....
> and also confirming J10c fly past.watch


What an idiot

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## Goritoes

Deino said:


> Oh well, like an old dog you are happy again to have found an old bone bone to chew but again you are lying!
> 
> Just to set things right:
> 
> *You were the leader making fun of those who stated that. (1) - *No I wasn't. In fact i always said, the J-10C is a linkely option and if Pakistan wants an interim type before Azm, the J-10 is the ONLY option.
> 
> *you hurled your worst insults at pakistan and me. (2) -* No, I didn't ... all i said, nothing is for free!
> 
> *Now the news is that the J10's would indeed be free of cost once pakistan gets them---. (3) -* NO, there are in fact NO news, they are for free, at least no credible & reliable news (but since you believe the Block 3 uses an Itlatian engine and AMRAAM, maybe you should check your sources you rely - or shall I say lie  - on?
> 
> *First SD10 was doubtful and you made fun about the pakistan getting the PL15---now that the PL15 is assured you will insult those who state that the next higher chinese BVR would not be available to pakistan---. (4) - *Again NO, I never questioned the SD-10 since this was always part of the package for the JF-17 and similar I never questioned the PL-15 since it is and was always the only logical element, All I questioned was that PL-15s are already in service and I questioned the two known images as faked. but hey any question is an insult for you as it seems.
> 
> Son---*you are getting 'bit'ch' slapped about everything you negated about pakistan* and yet you are here on this pakistani forum. (5) - fact check again: Yes, Paksitan indeed got as per your claim JH-7, J-15, J-16, J-20, 055 DDG and the Liaoning last week, so indeed I got *'bit'ch' slapped about everything you negated about pakistan!* Or wait, who claimed all this stuff and now got *'bit'ch' slapped about everything he claimed about pakistan!? *
> 
> Anyway again, you should consult a doctor, Tourette syndrome is quite annoying for others.



You shouldn't have responded bro, there is no point in replying to something that you already knows its not true.

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## kursed

J10CE deal included sovereign guarantees from the Gov of Pakistan, a portion of the price was paid upfront in foreign exchange. They are NOT coming for free.

Haroon Rasheed is not even taken serious by his household, to take him as gospel on military deals is sheer stupidity.

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## Deino

Goritoes said:


> You shouldn't have responded bro, there is no point in replying to something that you already knows its not true.




But in fact there are some here who still believe in his lies ...

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## Goritoes

Deino said:


> But in fact there are some here who still believe in his lies ...



Let them, does it matter? you don't anyone of PDF anything nor any explanation, we read your posts for years and almost every senior member will say that the claims in his posts are very off the mark. Plus you don't owe anyone explanation buddy, seriously  if you start giving them only thing they want (Attention/Relevance) then there goes another good thread down the drain.

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## Deino

Goritoes said:


> Let them, does it matter? you don't anyone of PDF anything nor any explanation, we read your posts for years and almost every senior member will say that the claims in his posts are very off the mark. Plus you don't owe anyone explanation buddy, seriously  if you start giving them only thing they want (Attention/Relevance) then there goes another good thread down the drain.




Good point my friend, but in fact maybe he and me are not too dissimilar: He takes each and every opportunity to insult and offend, and I MUST take every false claim to correct. I'm a teacher ... It's my live even in the most stupid cases at least to try.

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## Goritoes

Deino said:


> Good point my friend, but in fact maybe he and me are not too dissimilar: He takes each and every opportunity to insult and offend, and I MUST take every false claim to correct. I'm a teacher ... It's my live even in the most stupid cases at least to try.



Once a Teacher always a teacher lol kinda reminded me of my 9th Grade chemistry teacher, he was relative of one of my friend and I often see him outside the school, but every time we stop to talk, he ended up schooling me on something  not That I have disregard for my teachers, TBH I miss them as most of them are not alive but now, every time i remember them, them yelling at me, punishing or telling me that i need to focus were the life long lessons that makes me for who I am today. But One thing you and I both agree that you can not satisfy everyone, whether you have knowledge of something or source of a defense deal, there will always be people who will question your knowledge and source of news.

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## araz

Deino said:


> Oh well, like an old dog you are happy again to have found an old bone bone to chew but again you are lying!
> 
> Just to set things right:
> 
> *You were the leader making fun of those who stated that. (1) - *No I wasn't. In fact i always said, the J-10C is a linkely option and if Pakistan wants an interim type before Azm, the J-10 is the ONLY option.
> 
> *you hurled your worst insults at pakistan and me. (2) -* No, I didn't ... all i said, nothing is for free!
> 
> *Now the news is that the J10's would indeed be free of cost once pakistan gets them---. (3) -* NO, there are in fact NO news, they are for free, at least no credible & reliable news (but since you believe the Block 3 uses an Itlatian engine and AMRAAM, maybe you should check your sources you rely - or shall I say lie  - on?
> 
> *First SD10 was doubtful and you made fun about the pakistan getting the PL15---now that the PL15 is assured you will insult those who state that the next higher chinese BVR would not be available to pakistan---. (4) - *Again NO, I never questioned the SD-10 since this was always part of the package for the JF-17 and similar I never questioned the PL-15 since it is and was always the only logical element, All I questioned was that PL-15s are already in service and I questioned the two known images as faked. but hey any question is an insult for you as it seems.
> 
> Son---*you are getting 'bit'ch' slapped about everything you negated about pakistan* and yet you are here on this pakistani forum. (5) - fact check again: Yes, Paksitan indeed got as per your claim JH-7, J-15, J-16, J-20, 055 DDG and the Liaoning last week, so indeed I got *'bit'ch' slapped about everything you negated about pakistan!* Or wait, who claimed all this stuff and now got *'bit'ch' slapped about everything he claimed about pakistan!? *
> 
> Anyway again, you should consult a doctor, Tourette syndrome is quite annoying for others.


@Deino. Believe me ignoring him is Bliss. He remains on my ignore list and I sleep easy. Try it and see how peaceful life is.
A

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## Basel

Deino said:


> Ahh … so you claim the most ridiculous stuff and anyone who sticks to reality has to prove?? So you are also sure that there is intelligent live on Venus especially since I cannot prove there is none?
> 
> Funny, indeed …



Kindly don't twist things here, you asked for source from all posters here but yourself can not provide a source about your claim, provide the source of your claim or stop asking for source from others.


----------



## Deino

Basel said:


> Kindly don't twist things here, you asked for source from all posters here but yourself can not provide a source about your claim, provide the source of your claim or stop asking for source from others.




Ok, in that case I cannot give a source, but I can explain which is surely not the same in terms of credibility, but more than nothing.

IMO a TVC-variant for Pakistan is unlikely since so far only one J-10B - not even a C - was ever tested with that system. As such - and I agree no-one can exclude it for sure - it si most unlikely that alone for Pakistan a TVC-capable J-10C will be developed and delivered so soon when not even a J-10C TVC variant exist and the PLAAF has none such a variant in use.

IMO, it's quite logical ...

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## TaimiKhan

Deino said:


> Ok, in that case I cannot give a source, but I can explain which is surely not the same in terms of credibility, but more than nothing.
> 
> IMO a TVC-variant for Pakistan is unlikely since so far only one J-10B - not even a C - was ever tested with that system. As such - and I agree no-one can exclude it for sure - it si most unlikely that alone for Pakistan a TVC-capable J-10C will be developed and delivered so soon when not even a J-10C TVC variant exist and the PLAAF has none such a variant in use.
> 
> IMO, it's quite logical ...



If TVC is with chinese made engine only, then PAF J10s arent having it, as J10Cs are coming with russian engines for now. 99.99% sure.

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## Polestar 2

TaimiKhan said:


> If TVC is with chinese made engine only, then PAF J10s arent having it, as J10Cs are coming with russian engines for now. 99.99% sure.


Currently new J-10C for PLAAF are all using WS-10C engine. Seems like any AL-31FN run has ended. 

Plus , if you want to stick with a lesser thrust Russian AL-31FN for your J-10C. Go ahead.

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## Bleek

TaimiKhan said:


> If TVC is with chinese made engine only, then PAF J10s arent having it, as J10Cs are coming with russian engines for now. 99.99% sure.


That means somebody's claim of ToT of the engine may be true 🤔


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## TaimiKhan

Polestar 2 said:


> Currently new J-10C for PLAAF are all using WS-10C engine. Seems like any AL-31FN run has ended.
> 
> Plus , if you want to stick with a lesser thrust Russian AL-31FN for your J-10C. Go ahead.



Well the decision isnt mine to make. The people who tested it must have made the decision. 
It must not be just about thrust, since AL-31 has been there for decades and used widely, thus PAF must have decided not to for now trust with a newer engine untill its fully matured as we cant afford to experiment. 

Thus we have gone with a reliable and trusted engine, and who knows what comes in future.

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## Deino

TaimiKhan said:


> If TVC is with chinese made engine only, then PAF J10s arent having it, as J10Cs are coming with russian engines for now. 99.99% sure.




Again, could you please explain why you seem to be so sure, they will come again with Russian AL-31FN engines? From all we know since mid-2019 not a single J-10C was again built with Russian engines and now you suggest, Pakistan will again use the older less reliable standard. Also, if they are to be delivered soon, why haven't we seen any of them?

I just see no logic behind returning back to the Russian engine.


Bleek said:


> That means somebody's claim of ToT of the engine may be true 🤔




Nope. it mens that claim was wrong too as the claim it will use AL-31FN:

Anyway, let's wait ... in a few weeks we'll know,

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## TaimiKhan

Bleek said:


> That means somebody's claim of ToT of the engine may be true 🤔



ToT will never come, yeah u can get overhauling facility since russian engines need overhaul after their stated span life, thus we cant send engines to russia as its costly and time consuming. 
We can do it more efficiently here in Pakistan.


Deino said:


> Again, could you please explain why you seem to be so sure, they will come again with Russian AL-31FN engines? From all we know since mid-2019 not a single J-10C was again built with Russian engines and now you suggest, Pakistan will again use the older less reliable standard. Also, if they are to be delivered soon, why haven't we seen any of them?
> 
> I just see no logic behind returning back to the Russian engine.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. it mens that claim was wrong too as the claim it will use AL-31FN:
> 
> Anyway, let's wait ... in a few weeks we'll know,



Well i am not sure on my own, i said what i heard. For now its AL-31, may have changed since i last heard.
And i heard way back in 2020 that J-10s been finalized and then i stated in mid or earlier of 2021 that J-10s are ready and coming. 

Now let me say this also, one new procurement will come in end of 2023 or 2024. 

So lets see. 

Dieno, i hardly post, but when i post, i know what i am posting.

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## Falconless

Please have some interesting formations, such as the star and crescent and the number 75


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## GOAT

TaimiKhan said:


> ToT will never come, yeah u can get overhauling facility since russian engines need overhaul after their stated span life, thus we cant send engines to russia as its costly and time consuming.
> We can do it more efficiently here in Pakistan.
> 
> 
> Well i am not sure on my own, i said what i heard. For now its AL-31, may have changed since i last heard.
> And i heard way back in 2020 that J-10s been finalized and then i stated in mid or earlier of 2021 that J-10s are ready and coming.
> 
> Now let me say this also, one new procurement will come in end of 2023 or 2024.
> 
> So lets see.
> 
> Dieno, i hardly post, but when i post, i know what i am posting.


Can you give us a hint on the new procurement for 2023/24? Is it for the PAF?


Deino said:


> Again, could you please explain why you seem to be so sure, they will come again with Russian AL-31FN engines? From all we know since mid-2019 not a single J-10C was again built with Russian engines and now you suggest, Pakistan will again use the older less reliable standard. Also, if they are to be delivered soon, why haven't we seen any of them?
> 
> I just see no logic behind returning back to the Russian engine.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. it mens that claim was wrong too as the claim it will use AL-31FN:
> 
> Anyway, let's wait ... in a few weeks we'll know,


Perhaps China has sold PAF some of its used J10Cs for discount? That may explain how PAF pilots have been training on them already (according to posts on this forum). I am just speculating.


----------



## TaimiKhan

GOAT said:


> Can you give us a hint on the new procurement for 2023/24? Is it for the PAF?
> 
> Perhaps China has sold PAF some of its used J10Cs for discount? That may explain how PAF pilots have been training on them already (according to posts on this forum). I am just speculating.



Well just can say, not PAF. 😁

From what i know ours have been training on their own planes, not leased or rented.

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## Bilal.

TaimiKhan said:


> Well just can say, not PAF. 😁
> 
> From what i know ours have been training on their own planes, not leased or rented.


There’s as in PLANAF?

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## Deino

TaimiKhan said:


> ...
> 
> So lets see.
> 
> *Dieno, i hardly post, but when i post, i know what i am posting.*




Exactly my point, why I'm so much interested in a reply and explanation from you.

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## HRK

TaimiKhan said:


> one new procurement will come in end of 2023 or 2024.





TaimiKhan said:


> Well just can say, not PAF.


PN or PAA ... ??

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## TaimiKhan

Deino said:


> Exactly my point, why I'm so much interested in a reply and explanation from you.



Its just what i heard, as the argument was that we need a trusted and reliable option for now, as chinese one still needs to mature as a system, which will only happen once it is produced in mass, used in hundreds for few years, chinese master it, technology was its matured and has good infrastructure to back its maintenance.

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## Bleek

TaimiKhan said:


> Well just can say, not PAF. 😁


Aircraft for the PN?? 👀


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## SQ8

Deino said:


> But in fact there are some here who still believe in his lies ...


It is the confidence that sells them to mostly those who themselves have no technical understanding nor bother to research themselves.


TaimiKhan said:


> ToT will never come, yeah u can get overhauling facility since russian engines need overhaul after their stated span life, thus we cant send engines to russia as its costly and time consuming.
> We can do it more efficiently here in Pakistan.
> 
> 
> Well i am not sure on my own, i said what i heard. For now its AL-31, may have changed since i last heard.
> And i heard way back in 2020 that J-10s been finalized and then i stated in mid or earlier of 2021 that J-10s are ready and coming.
> 
> Now let me say this also, one new procurement will come in end of 2023 or 2024.
> 
> So lets see.
> 
> Dieno, i hardly post, but when i post, i know what i am posting.


The ToT was hard to swallow(although it is a VERY broad term) - getting the same deal as the RD-93s made more sense.

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## That Guy

Deino said:


> Again, could you please explain why you seem to be so sure, they will come again with Russian AL-31FN engines? From all we know since mid-2019 not a single J-10C was again built with Russian engines and now you suggest, Pakistan will again use the older less reliable standard. Also, if they are to be delivered soon, why haven't we seen any of them?
> 
> I just see no logic behind returning to the Russian engine.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. it means that claim was wrong too as the claim will use AL-31FN:
> 
> Anyway, let's wait ... in a few weeks we'll know,


While I don't know much of what's going on, I can say this...

Pakistan has a history of not using Chinese engines, even when buying Chinese vehicles.

As far as we know, the Chinese have offered to replace future thunder Russian engines with Chinese ones, something that Pakistan has rejected so far.

Even the Z-10 was rejected primarily due to its the engine, something I hear the Chinese took seriously enough to fix and upgrade their existing fleet.

IF Pakistan buys the J-10C (it's still a big if) with a Chinese engine (an even bigger if), then I'd consider China's engines to have gotten to a point that they can be considered reliable, and have gotten over their quality, and life expectancy problems that Chinese engines have historically faced.

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## baqai

TaimiKhan said:


> Well just can say, not PAF. 😁
> 
> From what i know ours have been training on their own planes, not leased or rented.



PN, dual engine dual seat ... J-15? am i close enough?

Edit: lets see how the rumor mills have been rolling :p

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## White and Green with M/S

baqai said:


> PN, dual engine dual seat ... J-15? am i close enough?


Your answer is big NO because of design is Russian based (Su-33)


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## That Guy

baqai said:


> PN, dual engine dual seat ... J-15? am i close enough?
> 
> Edit: lets see how the rumor mills have been rolling :p


Nope. Flankers will never appear in any Pakistani military branch's service.

And Chinese will never sell them.

My guess is that if it's a fighter he's talking about, then it's a naval version of a single engine fighter jet, as the PN is the only other branch that uses fighter jets.

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## baqai

White and Green with M/S said:


> Your answer is big NO because of design is Russian based (Su-33)



hush abhi thoray mazay tu lainay du bhai ... dekho bari mushkil sai @Deino ku hansi aai hai

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## tphuang

I find the claim of AL-31FN on J-10CP to be quite dubious.

The Chinese sources have said that export of J-10 to Pakistan is only becoming a reality now due to the fact that WS-10B has finally shown itself to be reliable on J-10C. Previously, having to get export license from Russians for AL-31FN for 20 to 30 J-10s was a difficult ask. It was one thing to get permission for 150 RD-93s + spares. It was quite another thing to get it for a much smaller quantity.

Moreover, China has not bought any AL-31FNs from the Russians for a long time. In fact, the only aircraft still in production using AL-31 is J-15s. That's due to the additional expected requirements of naval version of AL-31s. In fact, getting enough AL-31F/FN from Russians on time have always been an issue that limited China's ability to produce J-10s and J-11s. Keep in mind that Russians will have to produce enough AL-31s for its domestic fleet + export market. Reliance on AL-31s is also one of the limiting factors to the low production rates of J-20 until the last couple of years when WS-10C is finally available.

So given that we have not seen any new AL-31FN orders in the past 3 to 5 years, I'm not sure where PAF would get its Russian engines from. Since we are expecting full delivery of J-10CPs in a couple of months, such an order with Russia should have been announced a couple of years ago. If we assume that negotiation for J-10CP concluded sometimes by mid to late 2020s, that would not even leave the Russians enough time to produce them by second half of 2021 to be installed on those aircraft. Therefore, I don't think this actually passes the smell test.

But we will find out in a couple of months what the truth is.

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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> Paksitan indeed got as per your claim JH-7, J-15, J-16, J-20, 055 DDG and the Liaoning last week, so indeed I got *'bit'ch' slapped about everything you negated about pakistan!* Or wait, who claimed all this stuff and now got *'bit'ch' slapped about everything he claimed about pakistan!? *
> 
> Anyway again, you should consult a doctor, *Tourette syndrome is quite annoying for others. *



Hi,

We don't need those items at this time. If we do---we will get them.

In the US---personal disabilities are not annoying or looked down upon---.

*But it looks like just like Defense matters---you are also clueless to what " Tourette Syndrome is ".

I often tell people---don't cut off your nose to spite your face.*

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## araz

tphuang said:


> I find the claim of AL-31FN on J-10CP to be quite dubious.
> 
> The Chinese sources have said that export of J-10 to Pakistan is only becoming a reality now due to the fact that WS-10B has finally shown itself to be reliable on J-10C. Previously, having to get export license from Russians for AL-31FN for 20 to 30 J-10s was a difficult ask. It was one thing to get permission for 150 RD-93s + spares. It was quite another thing to get it for a much smaller quantity.
> 
> Moreover, China has not bought any AL-31FNs from the Russians for a long time. In fact, the only aircraft still in production using AL-31 is J-15s. That's due to the additional expected requirements of naval version of AL-31s. In fact, getting enough AL-31F/FN from Russians on time have always been an issue that limited China's ability to produce J-10s and J-11s. Keep in mind that Russians will have to produce enough AL-31s for its domestic fleet + export market. Reliance on AL-31s is also one of the limiting factors to the low production rates of J-20 until the last couple of years when WS-10C is finally available.
> 
> So given that we have not seen any new AL-31FN orders in the past 3 to 5 years, I'm not sure where PAF would get its Russian engines from. Since we are expecting full delivery of J-10CPs in a couple of months, such an order with Russia should have been announced a couple of years ago. If we assume that negotiation for J-10CP concluded sometimes by mid to late 2020s, that would not even leave the Russians enough time to produce them by second half of 2021 to be installed on those aircraft. Therefore, I don't think this actually passes the smell test.
> 
> But we will find out in a couple of months what the truth is.


@tphuang and @Deino.
I think if one looks at this conundrum it is very confusing. The arguments both for and against AL31FN are very cogent. The problem remains the lack of information about the Chinese engines. Basic information like thrust, MTBO, ability to produce in numbers is lacking. On the other hand the timing of the purchase points to PAF waiting for the WS10 to mature. 
No one can deny that Chinese are very new in engine manufacturing. We know from looking at development of engines that newer engines often face reliability/technical issues which need ironing out. 
Looking at it from PAF'S perspective they have so far resisted a transfer over to WS13 in spite of Chinese insistence. They have not even agreed to get the RD93MA for the same reason(possibly). So my question remains why is it not plausible for PAF's J10 to have AL31 FN? It may be that with the advent of WS10 the Russians no longer have any interest in keeping AL31FN away from PAF since IAF has not bought any planes. PAF now have options and the simple adage of "if you cannot beat them join them" applies here.
I understand that the fact the Chinese have not bought any AL31s for 3 years means the news lacks credibility. Iam just saying we will need to wait and see how/when the information is released as arguments on both sides are very strong and no side can provide satisfactory answers as to why they feel the other possibility does not exist.
Regards
A

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## zhxy

AL-31F or WS-10. The final decision belongs to Pakistan.

If Pakistan decides to choose Al-31F, China will integrate it on J-10CP

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## Deino

araz said:


> @tphuang and @Deino.
> I think if one looks at this conundrum it is very confusing. The arguments both for and against AL31FN are very cogent. The problem remains the lack of information about the Chinese engines. Basic information like thrust, MTBO, ability to produce in numbers is lacking. On the other hand the timing of the purchase points to PAF waiting for the WS10 to mature.
> No one can deny that Chinese are very new in engine manufacturing. We know from looking at development of engines that newer engines often face reliability/technical issues which need ironing out.
> Looking at it from PAF'S perspective they have so far resisted a transfer over to WS13 in spite of Chinese insistence. They have not even agreed to get the RD93MA for the same reason(possibly). *So my question remains why is it not plausible for PAF's J10 to have AL31 FN?* It may be that with the advent of WS10 the Russians no longer have any interest in keeping AL31FN away from PAF since IAF has not bought any planes. PAF now have options and the simple adage of "if you cannot beat them join them" applies here.
> I understand that the fact the Chinese have not bought any AL31s for 3 years means the news lacks credibility. Iam just saying we will need to wait and see how/when the information is released as arguments on both sides are very strong and no side can provide satisfactory answers as to why they feel the other possibility does not exist.
> Regards
> A




I fully agree wits what you said, we need to wait, but since you asked for an argument: simply since we haven‘t seen a new J-10C with that engine since mis-2019. That alone surely does not exclude the AL-31, but if these planes are to believers by March, then they are already built - and according to most reliable sources, PAF personnel is well in training already - but agin we haven‘t seen any since mid-2019.

So, agreed, surely China could find a way to hide this but given how reports and rumours on major news are spread and leaked, I see barely a chance of this to happen.

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## The Eagle

When we talk about any procurement by PAF, no one should have slightest doubt that PAF will compromise over quality, capability and proven V/s unproven tech. PAF chooses the best. There's only exception for new tech if it is indigenous or joint venture. Whether ally, friend or brother; PAF wouldn't compromise on quality.

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## TAC

The Maverick said:


> Guys
> 
> is this a fly past by chinease plaaf planes celebrating your paf dat
> 
> or
> 
> A purchase,of j10c by Paf
> 
> We have no confirmation of the deal.any where out side of this interior minister statement who said fly past oh j10c


Listen to the full statements by the interior minister and dg ispr & you’ll have your answer.


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## CodeforFood

Deino said:


> Again, could you please explain why you seem to be so sure, they will come again with Russian AL-31FN engines? From all we know since mid-2019 not a single J-10C was again built with Russian engines and now you suggest, Pakistan will again use the older less reliable standard. Also, if they are to be delivered soon, why haven't we seen any of them?
> 
> I just see no logic behind returning back to the Russian engine.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. it mens that claim was wrong too as the claim it will use AL-31FN:
> 
> Anyway, let's wait ... in a few weeks we'll know,


Would 'us getting older j10s that has Russian engine" satisfy that logic?


----------



## CodeforFood

That Guy said:


> Nope. Flankers will never appear in any Pakistani military branch's service.
> 
> And Chinese will never sell them.
> 
> My guess is that if it's a fighter he's talking about, then it's a naval version of a single engine fighter jet, as the PN is the only other branch that uses fighter jets.


could also be something high endurance under water. I am just speculating now . I need to be restrained... Unlike Mr. Taimi Khan I say less because I don't know much not because I know

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## Waiting

For 2023-24, keep in mind J 20

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## White and Green with M/S

Waiting said:


> For 2023-24, keep in mind J 20


What forget j20 dude for Pakistan why you guys always repeatedly same crap again and again j20 has a export ban by China
And not every military technology is available for Pakistan from China lol

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## SQ8

Waiting said:


> For 2023-24, keep in mind J 20


Will not be released to Pakistan - there is another option for Pakistan available through China besides FC-31 and J-20 but will require complete alignment to Chengdu.

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## MultaniGuy

White and Green with M/S said:


> What forget j20 dude for Pakistan why you guys always repeatedly same crap again and again j20 has a export ban by China
> And not every military technology is available for Pakistan from China lol


Unless of course Pakistan makes special concessions to China.

Whether in Economics (business contracts) or in Diplomacy ( standing up for China in OIC), or some other concessions.
But we need to improve our economy, so we can do more things.


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## Bilal.

SQ8 said:


> Will not be released to Pakistan - there is another option for Pakistan available through China besides FC-31 and J-20 but will require complete alignment to Chengdu.


That single engine J20-lite that has been rumored on and off?


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## TaimiKhan

Deino said:


> I fully agree wits what you said, we need to wait, but since you asked for an argument: simply since we haven‘t seen a new J-10C with that engine since mis-2019. That alone surely does not exclude the AL-31, but if these planes are to believers by March, then they are already built - and according to most reliable sources, PAF personnel is well in training already - but agin we haven‘t seen any since mid-2019.
> 
> So, agreed, surely China could find a way to hide this but given how reports and rumours on major news are spread and leaked, I see barely a chance of this to happen.



Main thing is, whether al-31 or ws-10 engine, we are getting Chinese J-10, that is whats important. The best of the best from china is coming, that is something. 

On personal level i would like ws-10 as we can get every kind of support from the chinese when it comes to maintenance infrastructure. 

Vt-4s have come with chinese engines, that is a first, z-10s will come with chinese engines, z-9s have chinese engines. 

Hope to see a stronger bond between Pak and China.

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## Ghessan

SQ8 said:


> Will not be released to Pakistan - there is another option for Pakistan available through China besides FC-31 and J-20 but will require complete alignment to Chengdu.



he based his argument of J-20 in 2023-24 on Taimi Khan's statement who denied anything attached to his saying of 2023-24 for PAF.


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## serenity

TaimiKhan said:


> Main thing is, whether al-31 or ws-10 engine, we are getting Chinese J-10, that is whats important. The best of the best from china is coming, that is something.
> 
> On personal level i would like ws-10 as we can get every kind of support from the chinese when it comes to maintenance infrastructure.
> 
> Vt-4s have come with chinese engines, that is a first, z-10s will come with chinese engines, z-9s have chinese engines.
> 
> Hope to see a stronger bond between Pak and China.



Only way J-10CP coming to Pakistan with AL-31 is if those J-10 are not J-10C which means older fighters or early J-10C batches which means either older fighters or PAF long ago already secured this J-10 deal. Otherwise it will be using WS-10B if PAF is getting brand new J-10C.

J-10C is nowhere near the best of the best from China in terms of fighter aircraft. That would currently be this







which is currently using WS-10C












I wonder what Pakistan is getting 2023 or 24?

If not PAF, so PN then?

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## Zarvan

Trailer23 said:


> You & me both...
> 
> But everytime someone brings up J-11, J-15 and/or J-16 in the Pakistan Air Force/Navy discussion - I can't help but shake my head  .
> 
> Obviously there are those who believe in Santa (too), but when you ask them for anything short of evidence - they go off saying that we don't know jack.
> 
> The J-11, J-15 and/or J-16 discussions are as absurd as EFT, GripenNG, F-35, F/A-18, F-22 etc.


Until a year ago even J-10 C was not happening and then it did. How many surprises you have got in one last year alone ? As for J-15/J-16 I have no news at all. But I would say one thing and that is that we want China will sell them and Russia would raise no objections. That being said I would say J-15/J-16 will come if Indian Navy instead of selecting Rafale M, goes for F-18 BLOCK III.

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## imranyounus

Has anyone ever thought it might just be a August 1 acrobatics team

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## Goritoes

araz said:


> @Deino. Believe me ignoring him is Bliss. He remains on my ignore list and I sleep easy. Try it and see how peaceful life is.
> A



You know you are annoying and bad, if the old and nicest person on PDF @araz puts you on ignore list  I did not put him on my ignore list, so i can read his absurd posts

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## War Historian

ARMalik said:


> I think we should also look at the bigger picture. A few hints below.
> 
> 1- USA:
> *F-15 design forms the basic of ---> F-22 Raptor and F-35. *F-15 semi stealth
> 
> 2- China:
> *J-10 design forms the basic of ---> J-20.* J-10 semi stealth.


Sir, in this context. Can we imagine future NGFA derived from JF-17


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## Deino

CodeforFood said:


> Would 'us getting older j10s that has Russian engine" satisfy that logic?




Indeed it would and it would also make sense for the PLAAF to replace those sold with new production ones using the WS-10, but would that fit to the point @The Eagle noted, that Paksitan won‘t compromise quality when the should get used fighters?

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## Deino

SQ8 said:


> Will not be released to Pakistan - there is another option for Pakistan available through China besides FC-31 and J-20 but will require complete alignment to Chengdu.




But since it is something different to the J-10, also not the J-20 … then it must be something new?!!!

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## Polestar 2

imranyounus said:


> Has anyone ever thought it might just be a August 1 acrobatics team



And you expect PLAAF acrobatic team to counter IAF Rafale on Pakistan airforce behalf?

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## Rafael

Confirmation from Chengdu.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483674723372331009

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## Deino

imranyounus said:


> Has anyone ever thought it might just be a August 1 acrobatics team




Why? They are using the even older J-10A variant, so this makes no sense at all.


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## SQ8

Deino said:


> But since it is something different to the J-10, also not the J-20 … then it must be something new?!!!


It likely is a design Chengdu has up its sleeve but never pursued. PAF was shown(design) it back in 2010 and were allowed a peek at the J-20(no they didn’t fly it nor were proposed a sale) and the J-31. But when the 5th generation focus began within the PAF then it was three designs including the J-31 they were looking at from China as a flyaway purchase ( no project Azm).

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## HRK

serenity said:


> If not PAF, so PN then?



We need to understand in the end of the year of 2020 Pakistan and China signed MOU about the "Interoperability" of their forces all these new purchases of defence article in my opinion are coming after this agreement.

All three forces of Pakistan are either receiving or have plan to purchase defence equipments to address specific shortcoming as compare to India

- Pakistan Army till now has received VT-4 and HQ-9

- Navy would receive Type-54 Frigates and Submarines

- Air Force will receive J-10 & and some version of HQ-9 SAM

so by this pattern we can assume only few widely known section of Arm Forces of Pakistan are left to be address which are

- *Gunship Helicopter for Pakistan Army Aviation*, Pakistan is facing many issues to address this domain, our existing fleet of Cobra Helicopters are old and need replacement while Turkish T-129 and US AH-1Z are not practical solutions to address this; so we are left with Chinese Option to fulfil our immediate needs.

- *An aerial platform which could enhance Strike capability* *of Pakistan Air force*, but there is no news or rumor for this domain so probably PAF will maintain Mirage Fleet for this purpose which is what PAF is doing as Mirage Fleet is getting their last overhaul. PAF will soon add J-10 in her fleet but J-10 are not strike platform, _therefore we can say that it will NOT induct any new platform during in the same time. _The Final Solution to address this domain might the NGF which will take some time.

- _*Navy lacks in Medium and Long Range Air Defence*_, but as per reports newly acquired Frigates will only address medium range Air defence needs to some extent

Conclusion: _So in the end we could say the only doable option right now is related to gunship which is more of immediate need of Pakistan Army._

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## TopGun786

Rafael said:


> Confirmation from Chengdu.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483674723372331009


That is some interesting news.

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## Deino

SQ8 said:


> It likely is a design Chengdu has up its sleeve but never pursued. PAF was shown(design) it back in 2010 and were allowed a peek at the J-20(no they didn’t fly it nor were proposed a sale) and the J-31. But when the 5th generation focus began within the PAF then it was three designs including the J-31 they were looking at from China as a flyaway purchase ( no project Azm).




Hmm?!!  ... but even if I agree, that CAC had a design "up its sleeve", such a design to complete will take vast amount of resources and if it is - like you say - "no project Azm" - then I see no chance for yet another fifth generation type! Anyway ... most interesting.

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## Goritoes

SQ8 said:


> It likely is a design Chengdu has up its sleeve but never pursued. PAF was shown(design) it back in 2010 and were allowed a peek at the J-20(no they didn’t fly it nor were proposed a sale) and the J-31. But when the 5th generation focus began within the PAF then it was three designs including the J-31 they were looking at from China as a flyaway purchase ( no project Azm).



But Isn't Project Azm a wider project that includes Fighter Jets, drones , SAM's and electronic warfare systems?

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## MH.Yang

Deino said:


> Indeed it would and it would also make sense for the PLAAF to replace those sold with new production ones using the WS-10, but would that fit to the point @The Eagle noted, that Paksitan won‘t compromise quality when the should get used fighters?



You mean PAF bought 25 second-hand J10B? Is it used to replace PAF's attacker? Mirage V?


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## Ghessan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483677735587299340

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## Deino

MH.Yang said:


> You mean PAF bought 25 second-hand J10B? Is it used to replace PAF's attacker? Mirage V?




Exactly *NOT *... I only replied to an idea posted above, if Pakistan could use older AL-31FN-powered J-10Cs; but surely not even older J-10B.


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## kursed

I hope this satisfies people now. 

Aviation Fusion Media 0 01-19 13:13 Weibo weibo.com #Aviation News# [Aerospace completes the ground handling training of the Pakistan Air Force] Recently, a team composed of senior lecturers and translators from various aerospace departments of the aviation industry, involving ejection seats , power products, life-saving umbrellas, comprehensive support equipment, electronic products and other professional teaching teams of 9 people, set off for Chengdu, and carried out a one-week training for an export model of seats and their supporting life-saving products for the ground crew of the Pakistan Air Force. Since the training content involves multiple professional products, after receiving the training task, in order to ensure the smooth development of the training work, in view of the characteristics of Pakistan Air Force personnel who are diligent and inquisitive, Aerospace immediately set up a compound training team, and in the shortest time Completed the production of Chinese and English version of the training materials and reached a teaching consensus. After arriving in Chengdu, the teaching team made some adjustments and started intensive teaching work. The ejection seat is the most complex and critical life-saving equipment, and it is the last barrier to ensure the life safety of the pilots. At the beginning of the training, the Pakistani ground staff showed a strong desire for knowledge and exploration, kept throwing questions from all angles, and extended the questions to other supporting products from time to time. The teachers worked together and cooperated with each other, supported by solid technical skills, with excellent professional quality as the background, and faithful bilingual translation as the bridge, answered the doubts of the Pakistani ground staff earnestly, meticulously, and patiently. Unanimous praise from the students. This training lasted for a week, involving 7 products, and the task was arduous. With the full cooperation of the company's teaching team, the training task was successfully completed. 



Rafael said:


> Confirmation from Chengdu.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483674723372331009

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## SD 10

kursed said:


> I hope this satisfies people now.
> 
> Aviation Fusion Media 0 01-19 13:13 Weibo weibo.com #Aviation News# [Aerospace completes the ground handling training of the Pakistan Air Force] Recently, a team composed of senior lecturers and translators from various aerospace departments of the aviation industry, involving ejection seats , power products, life-saving umbrellas, comprehensive support equipment, electronic products and other professional teaching teams of 9 people, set off for Chengdu, and carried out a one-week training for an export model of seats and their supporting life-saving products for the ground crew of the Pakistan Air Force. Since the training content involves multiple professional products, after receiving the training task, in order to ensure the smooth development of the training work, in view of the characteristics of Pakistan Air Force personnel who are diligent and inquisitive, Aerospace immediately set up a compound training team, and in the shortest time Completed the production of Chinese and English version of the training materials and reached a teaching consensus. After arriving in Chengdu, the teaching team made some adjustments and started intensive teaching work. The ejection seat is the most complex and critical life-saving equipment, and it is the last barrier to ensure the life safety of the pilots. At the beginning of the training, the Pakistani ground staff showed a strong desire for knowledge and exploration, kept throwing questions from all angles, and extended the questions to other supporting products from time to time. The teachers worked together and cooperated with each other, supported by solid technical skills, with excellent professional quality as the background, and faithful bilingual translation as the bridge, answered the doubts of the Pakistani ground staff earnestly, meticulously, and patiently. Unanimous praise from the students. This training lasted for a week, involving 7 products, and the task was arduous. With the full cooperation of the company's teaching team, the training task was successfully completed.


YEah they mentioned j10c in the tweet so all those rumors about A or B model should be put to rest now..........

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## applesauce

SQ8 said:


> It likely is a design Chengdu has up its sleeve but never pursued. PAF was shown(design) it back in 2010 and were allowed a peek at the J-20(no they didn’t fly it nor were proposed a sale) and the J-31. But when the 5th generation focus began within the PAF then it was three designs including the J-31 they were looking at from China as a flyaway purchase ( no project Azm).



that would mean pakistan is shown some on-paper design and if PAF wanted it, pakistan would have to financing the entire mystery chengdu project by itself. i don't see that as much of an option especially as you know, pakistan currently does not have that kind of money and there is no way chengdu finished the design and didn't even try to promote it for sale. I also dont see it being any kind of collaboration where china finances 50%+ of the costs, that boat has sailed with the FC31/J35.

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## SQ8

Deino said:


> Hmm?!!  ... but even if I agree, that CAC had a design "up its sleeve", such a design to complete will take vast amount of resources and if it is - like you say - "no project Azm" - then I see no chance for yet another fifth generation type! Anyway ... most interesting.


It would and most importantly - it would not be a Pakistan only aircraft. My guess based on the horse’s mouth statement was that there perhaps was a CAC “Checkmate” type project that either was shelved or not prioritized. Bear in mind there has been a permanent Pakistani presence at CAC since 2002 varying in size and role over the years.

Either way, 2011 was ten years ago and at that time Pakistan barely could afford the loan interest payments on JF-17(something I like to repeat as reference to the cancerous government at that time). Today things are fairly different with a revised ASR.


applesauce said:


> that would mean pakistan is shown some on-paper design and if PAF wanted it, pakistan would have to financing the entire mystery chengdu project by itself. i don't see that as much of an option especially as you know, pakistan currently does not have that kind of money and there is no way chengdu finished the design and didn't even try to promote it for sale. I also dont see it being any kind of collaboration where china finances 50%+ of the costs, that boat has sailed with the FC31/J35.


Please see above and yes - financing terms from China have gotten stricter as well. When the first FC-20(J-10AE) was proposed to Pakistan China was willing to provide ridiculously favorable terms similar to those for the JF-17 but that wouldn’t include costs PAF would have to bear apart from flyaway and weapons which post 2005 earthquake and then 2008 crash it could not afford.


Goritoes said:


> But Isn't Project Azm a wider project that includes Fighter Jets, drones , SAM's and electronic warfare systems?


Yes - but that didn’t exist 10 years ago. It was just a PAF requirement for a 5th generation aircraft

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## araz

Goritoes said:


> You know you are annoying and bad, if the old and nicest person on PDF @araz puts you on ignore list  I did not put him on my ignore list, so i can read his absurd posts


I have known him and tolerated him since 2006/7. It got out of hand and the name calling became too boring so I chose peace over arguments. You only need one person in your life to call you names and the Mrs does a fairly good job of it. 
A

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## abdulbarijan

Just a thought

I mean it could easily be, that Sheikh Sb. was told by someone that:

1. We will have a J-10 display on 23rd of march (not new, has happened before)
2. The jet is in the category of Rafale (i.e. Rafale kai muqablai ka hai)

and Sheikh Sb might've understood something else and converted that in to _"We are bringing J-10 on 23rd of March for flypast against Rafale"_.

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## Goritoes

araz said:


> I have known him and tolerated him since 2006/7. It got out of hand and the name calling became too boring so I chose peace over arguments. You only need one person in your life to call you names and the Mrs does a fairly good job of it.
> A



And Mrs sometime gets happy, Mastan has become the only Mogambo of PDF that never gets happy.

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## alibaz

Khan vilatey said:


> my friend I believe some khaki makhlooq must have told sheikh sahib to put this out. Sheikh sahib has never released secret information he is close to GHQ.
> 
> I believe there is a massive media war , the chief goes to massive exercises in Punjab and Sindh…..tons of equipment being prepared ….. something is brewing…… will start a new thread
> 
> k



He speaks what he is told to. This time he spoke script in his own style.


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## alibaz

ummarz said:


> Congratulations my fellow PDFers. What a great way to end the year eh?
> 
> I must say that to me getting more F-16s made more sense than J-10 purely from the logistical point of view. But I am no expert. And once HQ9P was acquired by the army rather than the airforce I had a strong suspicion that we may get J-10. The only logical use of the funds saved by airforce would be to acquire a new Jet. And J-10 just made sense. It mates very well with everything we have now, the backbone fighter JF-17, the SAM HQ9P, and the Chinese AWACS.
> 
> The squadron that J-10 is going into was a strike squadron. Which tells a lot about PAFs changing doctrine from mostly defensive to perhaps a touch of offensive. Definitely more offensive than before.
> 
> PAF was never a walkover, but now its going to be a pain in the rear for IAF.
> 
> Soon we might just hear: "Agar Eph Thirty Phyep Hota"


I believe we are already into transition from looking west to China for diversity but while doing this again moving to another single source. However, apart from many political factors, economics and affordability of western equipment is also a question. J-10 is a very capable plane but romance with Sixteens is eternal.


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## baqai

so slowly we are moving out of the fog and doubts and are establishing that it is not a rumor, the J-10's ARE coming and they are the shinny new J-10C's not A or B older models, now remains the mystery of the engine, my two bits is that PAF will choose the engine very strategically so that it remains constant with their technology roadmap for the years to come

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## rAli

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482306819326296069
Not sure if this has been posted before, supposedly a new J-10C with Al-31F! Might be a PAF bird!!

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## imranyounus

I


Deino said:


> Why? They are using the even older J-10A variant, so this makes no sense at all.


I was just saying that this entire episode narrated by sheikh rasheed might trun out to be a show by August 1 team.

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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> Indeed it would and it would also make sense for the PLAAF to replace those sold with new production ones using the WS-10, but would that fit to the point @The Eagle noted, that Paksitan won‘t compromise quality when the should get used fighters?



People needs to understand that PAF is regarded as a top class fighting force highly disciplined and at par with any modern force out there despite of limited resources/options. In no way, any one should have a doubt on this. Even though, I didn't acknowledged neither claimed anything on AL-31F but one has to keep in mind that PAF is not going to compromise. That being said, whether AL-31F or WS-10; the top notch will be chosen by blue boys. IF J-10CP is here, it is going to be the spear head for PAF and in that area, there is no other option but to get the best out of it. I will hold down myself till the birds lands. We will then discuss as how, when it happened---- who was in China since when and in-fact how many of us (almost 6 members) knew from early 2019 or even before that.

I acknowledge & agree what @SQ8 used to say that any information which is for personal delight, shouldn't come to the internet unless Source say so. Secondly, any responsible person having information on any such topic, wouldn't compromise the OPSEC for few brownie points. Lastly, we all need to act responsibly. Either the J-10 or as I used to say, not only J-10 but a lot coming; means it is a huge responsibility to keep things close to your chest until the time comes.

Getting back to the topic; AL-31F has its own advantages and PAF sees that close coordination with big wigs for the future of Pakistan Defence Industries. A lot has been settled and clarified between Pakistan-Russia and I wouldn't shy to accept that thanks to China for playing a bigger role in this regard. This is same as like how Pakistan played a bigger role to clear the path for Chinese reaching the Gulf Defence Industry.

Currently, whatever being said on internet and as revealed by officials through different channels; is merely the tip of iceberg. Having said that, if even 40% of the desired modernization is revealed; I bet people will remain in shock for at-least couple of weeks if not a month.

Have you ever seen me opposing particular platform or even trying to say that so & so person is making such a stupid claim that if J-15 or J-16 or any Flanker is coming? I bet you wouldn't find me seriously doing so. You know why? I do not look at merely a platform or an opinion of someone wishing PAF to have a flanker. What interests me, is the case of seeing far beyond just a platform or an equipment. I am more interested into things impacting Country's Defence in long future.

I believe that any professional force like PAF just do not buy an equipment to live through the day and survive for tomorrow. You might not believe but PAF plans for 30+ years to the least if anything is procured or inducted into the active operations. By that logic & tactics; one can easily understand that which tech might get interest of PAF and how come the same can benefit Defence of the Country by any means or different ways. While pointing to something being interested to PAF; just pay close attention to the benefits and future lies ahead in-form of that particular platform/equipment, people will get the idea as how PAF or PN or PA is planning. How beneficial it is and how this is going to support in very long run.

If we are talking about AL-31F engine with J-10C for PAF; I wouldn't deny that plainly rather be looking at AZM becoming reality, an NGF becomes the reality and taking shape, a defence industry of Pakistan moving forward and all these factors will be combined with the help of Friends indeed. PAF may not be bringing the AL-31F or WS-10 merely for the sake of it. Trust me. It has more to do with future tech, development and progress being made to meet with modern warfare challenges. I have no doubt that Russia, China & Turkiye are already helping in different areas and the future path has been set.

Unfortunately, public denial is because of an ill painted picture of Pakistan. Don't take me wrong (everyone) but not everyone has to stomach to digest what PAF, PN or PA has been up-to. Unfortunately, most of us never tried to look at the right side of the picture but this is us keep asking for everything on platter and being spoon fed. I am not denying the fact of OpSec and secrecy level being maintained by Pakistan or China as everyone does so but did everyone belittle the particular nation or undermine them as if their defence capability is nothing at par in modern times. Surprisingly, no one ever could get the idea as how Pakistan has been the center of power struggle in the region and plays a major role to set rules. No one ever could look at things that Pakistan did. It is a dilemma but a reality since majority believes in the narrative being pushed by leading or major media outlets. There is a less of interest by the people to dig deeper and look at the things as they are instead of how they tell us to believe.

The reason as of the same proven fact that PAF do not race into quantity with the rival but always comes ahead of quality and delivering the result. This is all about to control the end game.

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## Ali_Baba

Ghessan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483677735587299340



If PAF Pilots are "now" being trained on ejection procedures - then it does suggest they may not be "ready enough" to take part in the March flyby ? Unless of course, if it is a "staggered" release of information that does not reflect the actual rate of training progress made so far.


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## untitled

Ali_Baba said:


> f PAF Pilots are "now" being trained on ejection procedures - then it does suggest they may not be "ready enough" to take part in the March flyby ?


Probably also means Pakistan has now confidence in Chinese ejection seats


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## siegecrossbow

Ali_Baba said:


> If PAF Pilots are "now" being trained on ejection procedures - then it does suggest they may not be "ready enough" to take part in the March flyby ? Unless of course, if it is a "staggered" release of information that does not reflect the actual rate of training progress made so far.



You misread the translation. The article mentions how Pakistanis *ground crew* were taught how to maintain the ejection seats, not how pilots learned to use them.

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## Bossman

untitled said:


> Probably also means Pakistan has confidence in Chinese ejection seats


They reason they are testing new seats is because they have installed Martin Baker seats. Even the old PAF F6s had MB seats.

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## untitled

Bossman said:


> Even the old PAF F6s had MB seats.


Pakistan installed the Martin-Baker seats becuase of bad experiences with the Chinsese seats at the time. If I recall correctly someone from PAF had commented that the most expensive part of the F-6 was the ejection seat since the Chinese had handed over the F-6s to PAF, virtually for free

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## lcloo

Bossman said:


> They reason they are testing new seats is because they have installed Martin Baker seats. Even the old PAF F6s had MB seats.


Not testing ejection seats. Training the ground crew on maitenance of Chinese ejection seats.

AVIC #China recently completed “intensive” training programs for the ejection seat and training on 7 other systems* for the ground crew of the J-10C,* for the #Pakistan Air Force in #Chengdu.

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## Trango Towers

untitled said:


> Pakistan installed the Martin-Baker seats becuase of bad experiences with the Chinsese seats at the time. If I recall correctly someone from PAF had commented that the most expensive part of the F-6 was the ejection seat since the Chinese handed over the F-6s to PAF, virtually for free


Martin Baker are the authority on ejection seats although I don't know why Pakistan doesn't make these.


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## tphuang

On the topic of why JF-17 engine choice vs J-10. Pakistan has a long established maintenance process for RD-93s. It really would be costly and annoying for PAF to deviate from that. WS-13/21 is also a new engine that's just being used on a few UAVs and FC-31 prototypes. I can completely understand PAF looking at it as not worth the risk or the cost. The bigger question is why does PAF find RD-93MA to be not satisfactory? Is Klimov incapable of improving on a 40 year old design? That would fit the long pattern of Russians over-promoting something and not being able to deliver on time. It would also make sense given how little investment Russia has put into Mig-29/RD-33 series in the past 30 years.

Since PAF does not have any similar attachment for AL-31FN, it really doesn't make sense for PAF to deal with the additional hassle of Russian export licenses or possibly delivery issues with Salyut. China's ability to produce everything on J-10C internally is a major factor on why it can deliver this many J-10Cs so soon. Also, keep in mind that WS-10 is now in service with J-20, J-10C, J-11B and J-16. It should be quite reliable by this point. Its production levels are also quite good. In fact, they've already been able to upgrade it to 142kN thrust with WS-10C. That's as good as any Russian engine in production. That should tell you the current Chinese engine makers have more experience with developing new engines and upgrading existing engines than Russian ons. I would be surprised if WS-15 joins service later than Izdeliye 30.

For the same reason that US does not export F-22, China is unlikely to ever export J-20. The most realistic path for PAF is to work with CAC to develop a more multi-role version of J-10 that can conduct that J-10Cs are currently not asked to do. Another path is for PAF to work with PLAAF and CAC to develop a more stealthy version of J-10 that both air forces would have use for.

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## serenity

tphuang said:


> On the topic of why JF-17 engine choice vs J-10. Pakistan has a long established maintenance process for RD-93s. It really would be costly and annoying for PAF to deviate from that. WS-13/21 is also a new engine that's just being used on a few UAVs and FC-31 prototypes. I can completely understand PAF looking at it as not worth the risk or the cost. The bigger question is why does PAF find RD-93MA to be not satisfactory? Is Klimov incapable of improving on a 40 year old design? That would fit the long pattern of Russians over-promoting something and not being able to deliver on time. It would also make sense given how little investment Russia has put into Mig-29/RD-33 series in the past 30 years.
> 
> Since PAF does not have any similar attachment for AL-31FN, it really doesn't make sense for PAF to deal with the additional hassle of Russian export licenses or possibly delivery issues with Salyut. China's ability to produce everything on J-10C internally is a major factor on why it can deliver this many J-10Cs so soon. Also, keep in mind that WS-10 is now in service with J-20, J-10C, J-11B and J-16. It should be quite reliable by this point. Its production levels are also quite good. In fact, they've already been able to upgrade it to 142kN thrust with WS-10C. That's as good as any Russian engine in production. That should tell you the current Chinese engine makers have more experience with developing new engines and upgrading existing engines than Russian ons. I would be surprised if WS-15 joins service later than Izdeliye 30.
> 
> For the same reason that US does not export F-22, China is unlikely to ever export J-20. The most realistic path for PAF is to work with CAC to develop a more multi-role version of J-10 that can conduct that J-10Cs are currently not asked to do. Another path is for PAF to work with PLAAF and CAC to develop a more stealthy version of J-10 that both air forces would have use for.



Pakistan working with CAC on something new even if based on J-10 is unlikely. It will cost Pakistan money. Even buying a few dozen J-10C at the same price PLAAF buys is still a lot of money. Developing something new just for PAF only means Pakistan shoulders the entire cost of such programs and then they will be buying it although at no real profit for CAC except the cost of overhead and all development expenses. That is simply not realistic.

All these sorts of programs cost so much money really only five countries in the world can afford to develop so many fighter programs and buy those fighters. China, USA, France, UK, Russia, and Sweden sort of at least in the past. Japan can do one project with available budget. Korea is doing well but partnered with USA for KFX project. India says they will do AMCA and India is a huge country and barely can do one program at a time.

Whatever Pakistan wants to develop out of some past CAC ideas like the other members mentioned would either require China to pay much of the bill or eat into Pakistan's funding for other things. Pakistan is a nuclear power. It's aim shouldn't be to create an equal counter force to India but to be able to make it too expensive for India to do anything conventionally damaging with losing sovereignty of Pakistan which doesn't count Kashmir. If it comes to Pakistan's own sovereignty at threat due to conventional war, Pakistan can resort to nuclear. That means its conventional forces should just aim to keep up slightly with India but not to equal it. That will bankrupt Pakistan and ensure its forever poverty.

By partnering up together, both countries can try to maximize Pakistan's effectiveness in thwarting any Indian aggression on smaller scale and on larger scale, India will not dare as long as Pakistan has almost an equal nuclear force to India.

That is enough. The rest for future fighter plans should look at 5th generation and beyond. If you have limited funds to spend, it is not smart to have block 3 JF-17, J-10C even if just 36 units or 20 something, and also some other 4.5 generation CAC project idea that requires deep investment and time for full development, then also AZM program and possibly merging AZM with other programs outside Pakistan or if not, then two separate 5th generations!? no way. Pakistan is sounding like it is Switzerland but 10 times the size? Come on even rich European countries barely buy or try and do one fighter project.

J-10C is to counter Rafale and be PAF's modern medium fighter because block 52 F-16 is not effective in this era with no phased radar and same 2000s missile as its absolute best one. If there is some CAC project that was shelved due to J-20 and other priorities from PLAAF which won't buy 2 or 3 separate fighter types of 4th generation, Pakistan doesn't have the money to develop and buy it fully and if it does have the money, it really shouldn't be wasting it in that way.

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## Deino

Goritoes said:


> And Mrs sometime gets happy, Mastan has become the only Mogambo of PDF that never gets happy.




Oh, as it seems he is always quite happy if he can rant against a certain stupid German.  As such I play my role ...

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## Deino

rAli said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482306819326296069
> Not sure if this has been posted before, supposedly a new J-10C with Al-31F! Might be a PAF bird!!




It's fake ... it is in fact an early production J-10C posted on 13. November 2017 and as uch surely has an AL-31FN.

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## Deino

The Eagle said:


> People needs to understand that PAF is regarded as a top class fighting force highly disciplined and at par with any modern force out there despite of limited resources/options. In no way, any one should have a doubt on this. Even though, I didn't acknowledged neither claimed anything on AL-31F but one has to keep in mind that PAF is not going to compromise. That being said, whether AL-31F or WS-10; the top notch will be chosen by blue boys. IF J-10CP is here, it is going to be the spear head for PAF and in that area, there is no other option but to get the best out of it. I will hold down myself till the birds lands. We will then discuss as how, when it happened---- who was in China since when and in-fact how many of us (almost 6 members) knew from early 2019 or even before that.
> 
> I acknowledge & agree what @SQ8 used to say that any information which is for personal delight, shouldn't come to the internet unless Source say so. Secondly, any responsible person having information on any such topic, wouldn't compromise the OPSEC for few brownie points. Lastly, we all need to act responsibly. Either the J-10 or as I used to say, not only J-10 but a lot coming; means it is a huge responsibility to keep things close to your chest until the time comes.
> 
> Getting back to the topic; AL-31F has its own advantages and PAF sees that close coordination with big wigs for the future of Pakistan Defence Industries. A lot has been settled and clarified between Pakistan-Russia and I wouldn't shy to accept that thanks to China for playing a bigger role in this regard. This is same as like how Pakistan played a bigger role to clear the path for Chinese reaching the Gulf Defence Industry.
> 
> Currently, whatever being said on internet and as revealed by officials through different channels; is merely the tip of iceberg. Having said that, if even 40% of the desired modernization is revealed; I bet people will remain in shock for at-least couple of weeks if not a month.
> 
> Have you ever seen me opposing particular platform or even trying to say that so & so person is making such a stupid claim that if J-15 or J-16 or any Flanker is coming? I bet you wouldn't find me seriously doing so. You know why? I do not look at merely a platform or an opinion of someone wishing PAF to have a flanker. What interests me, is the case of seeing far beyond just a platform or an equipment. I am more interested into things impacting Country's Defence in long future.
> 
> I believe that any professional force like PAF just do not buy an equipment to live through the day and survive for tomorrow. You might not believe but PAF plans for 30+ years to the least if anything is procured or inducted into the active operations. By that logic & tactics; one can easily understand that which tech might get interest of PAF and how come the same can benefit Defence of the Country by any means or different ways. While pointing to something being interested to PAF; just pay close attention to the benefits and future lies ahead in-form of that particular platform/equipment, people will get the idea as how PAF or PN or PA is planning. How beneficial it is and how this is going to support in very long run.
> 
> If we are talking about AL-31F engine with J-10C for PAF; I wouldn't deny that plainly rather be looking at AZM becoming reality, an NGF becomes the reality and taking shape, a defence industry of Pakistan moving forward and all these factors will be combined with the help of Friends indeed. PAF may not be bringing the AL-31F or WS-10 merely for the sake of it. Trust me. It has more to do with future tech, development and progress being made to meet with modern warfare challenges. I have no doubt that Russia, China & Turkiye are already helping in different areas and the future path has been set.
> 
> Unfortunately, public denial is because of an ill painted picture of Pakistan. Don't take me wrong (everyone) but not everyone has to stomach to digest what PAF, PN or PA has been up-to. Unfortunately, most of us never tried to look at the right side of the picture but this is us keep asking for everything on platter and being spoon fed. I am not denying the fact of OpSec and secrecy level being maintained by Pakistan or China as everyone does so but did everyone belittle the particular nation or undermine them as if their defence capability is nothing at par in modern times. Surprisingly, no one ever could get the idea as how Pakistan has been the center of power struggle in the region and plays a major role to set rules. No one ever could look at things that Pakistan did. It is a dilemma but a reality since majority believes in the narrative being pushed by leading or major media outlets. There is a less of interest by the people to dig deeper and look at the things as they are instead of how they tell us to believe.
> 
> The reason as of the same proven fact that PAF do not race into quantity with the rival but always comes ahead of quality and delivering the result. This is all about to control the end game.




In fact since you mentioned this, it is IMO the only viable option for AL-31FN-powered J-10C: To get the Russians on board, to let them get a piece of that cake in order to get other guarantees and concessions for - and now Deino has a crazy idea  - lets spin the mind even more. This more could THEN indeed be a Russian agreement to allow China to sell its Flanker series under the condition that they are Russian powered.

I know I always refused any China-Flanker sale to anyone due to the fact that China in my opinion never will break at least this obligation from the original contract ... but if there would be an agreement with Russia, so why not!?

Please don't go out and tell now, Deino reverted his mind and thinks Pakistan will get J-15/J-16, I'm still convinced this is highly unlikely ... but under these terms I can imagine it could be an option.

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## Riz

Wichli khabar : J-10cp along with all weapons systems ready to land in Pakistan next month inshallah

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## Bossman

Trango Towers said:


> Martin Baker are the authority on ejection seats although I don't know why Pakistan doesn't make these.


Because only Martin Baker makes them


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## Trango Towers

Bossman said:


> Because only Martin Baker makes them


What kind of reply is that.

So no one should make ejections seats beacuase MB makes them


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## Vapnope

February is one important month..

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## CodeforFood

Deino said:


> It's fake ... it is in fact an early production J-10C posted on 13. November 2017 and as uch surely has an AL-31FN.
> 
> View attachment 809862


My thought is that if we are indeed getting russian engines on J10C, then they may be older used J10C and that will also explain how we can foot the bill. I don't think for our need the higher thrust is the only deciding factor from performance perspective.


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## Bossman

Trango Towers said:


> What kind of reply is that.
> 
> So no one should make ejections seats beacuase MB makes them


You said why Pakistan doesn’t make MB ejection seats, I said because only MB makes them.

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## Bossman

CodeforFood said:


> My thought is that if we are indeed getting russian engines on J10C, then they may be older used J10C and that will also explain how we can foot the bill. I don't think for our need the higher thrust is the only deciding factor from performance perspective.


Everything is based on assumptions and speculation so I will add mine. Also don’t focus on the cost issue too much, China and Pakistan have strategic relationships and cost is not the primary concern. 

1) It is possible the PAF might not be comfortable with a relatively new Chinese engine and wants something more dependable with a history. Chinese might also have a capacity issue because they just mastered high end jet engine technology.

2) Secondly, PAF could be a taking a longer-term perspective by engaging with the Russians and/or maybe it was a Russian pre-condition for PAF to buy AL31 based J-10s for future business. Putin has given Pakistan a blank check for certain defense purchases but I think both sides are still cautious how to engage each other.

3) In the medium term PAF might be interested in SU35 with AL41 engines so makes a lot of sense to have something compatible now.

4) PAF will require an engine for its future 5th generation aircraft under project Azm, as a JV or off-the-shelf. In any case the only engines available to PAF will be Chinese or Russian with Russian being a better technical solution. Thus it makes a lot of sense to start developing a longer term relationship with the Russians. An engine in the class of AL41 will be needed for super cruise. RD33/93 will not cut it.

In any case the speculations should be over in a few months.

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## baqai

bhai, look at past acquisitions of aircraft by PAF from China and ask yourself, did we took the product right off the shelf or we asked (demanded) heavy customizations to it? if we did it with A-5, F-6, F-7 than J-10 is not an exception, PAF will not get a half backed cookie and anything including the engine would be on the table when it comes to customization


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## siegecrossbow

All you folks who speculate about AL-31/41 and flankers (Chinese or otherwise) make me laugh. When the IAF creates a maintenance nightmare by sourcing like 8 different aircraft types from six different countries you guys mock them for being impractical but when it comes to the PAF you basically want to do the same thing.

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## Basel

TaimiKhan said:


> ToT will never come, yeah u can get overhauling facility since russian engines need overhaul after their stated span life, thus we cant send engines to russia as its costly and time consuming.
> We can do it more efficiently here in Pakistan.
> 
> 
> Well i am not sure on my own, i said what i heard. For now its AL-31, may have changed since i last heard.
> And i heard way back in 2020 that J-10s been finalized and then i stated in mid or earlier of 2021 that J-10s are ready and coming.
> 
> Now let me say this also, one new procurement will come in end of 2023 or 2024.
> 
> So lets see.
> 
> Dieno, i hardly post, but when i post, i know what i am posting.



New procurement is another aircraft or AD system??


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## TaimiKhan

Basel said:


> New procurement is another aircraft or AD system??



Nothing among the 2 bro. 

Challooo a big hint, its already in the news being heard. 

Busss ab itnaa kafi hai.

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## NA71

TaimiKhan said:


> Nothing among the 2 bro.
> 
> Challooo a big hint, its already in the news being heard.
> 
> Busss ab itnaa kafi hai.


Gunship Helis.....


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## araz

abdulbarijan said:


> Just a thought
> 
> I mean it could easily be, that Sheikh Sb. was told by someone that:
> 
> 1. We will have a J-10 display on 23rd of march (not new, has happened before)
> 2. The jet is in the category of Rafale (i.e. Rafale kai muqablai ka hai)
> 
> and Sheikh Sb might've understood something else and converted that in to _"We are bringing J-10 on 23rd of March for flypast against Rafale"_.


I personally think the news has been leaked via Sheikh Rasheed. I dont specifically know why it was done but he is known as the Pindi boy and is close to military circles. Ido not think there is a need to announce it if the Chimese are bronging their J10s over. The mannerisms sugfest these are our own planes. My 2 paisas worth.
A


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## Bleek

NA71 said:


> Gunship Helis.....


But that's an aircraft.

Can't be:
Drones
Jets
Helicopters
AD systems

As he said no aircrafts or AD systems.

What else has been rumoured to be a purchase?


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## Bossman

siegecrossbow said:


> All you folks who speculate about AL-31/41 and flankers (Chinese or otherwise) make me laugh. When the IAF creates a maintenance nightmare by sourcing like 8 different aircraft types from six different countries you guys mock them for being impractical but when it comes to the PAF you basically want to do the same thing.


Irrespective if it WS10 or AL41, PAF will add one more engine to its inventory with Purchase of J10. If they could they would buy block 70


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## Mr.Cringeworth

Ali_Baba said:


> If PAF Pilots are "now" being trained on ejection procedures - then it does suggest they may not be "ready enough" to take part in the March flyby ? Unless of course, if it is a "staggered" release of information that does not reflect the actual rate of training progress made so far.


Not exactly. This is a training for the ground crew not the pilots on how to handle the safety equipment on this aircraft. There is no news of our pilots training which is understandable as it would have been kept a secret by both sides, as some senior members have said that our pilots have been training on these jets for a couple of months now they should be fairly trained for a flypast atleast.

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## siegecrossbow

Bossman said:


> Irrespective if it WS10 or AL41, PAF will add one more engine to its inventory with Purchase of J10. If they could they would buy block 70



That's what I think too. F-16V is the best choice for PAF. No extra fighter type or extra engine type to maintain, compatible with existing pilot and weapons and PAF has almost 4 decades of experience operating the variant. But unfortunately that is no longer an option, but instead of adding just one fighter type and engine type (J-10C and WS-10), some of the members here are going crazy and adding three or four new aircraft and engine types.

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## TaimiKhan

siegecrossbow said:


> That's what I think too. F-16V is the best choice for PAF. No extra fighter type or extra engine type to maintain, compatible with existing pilot and weapons and PAF has almost 4 decades of experience operating the variant. But unfortunately that is no longer an option, but instead of adding just one fighter type and engine type (J-10C and WS-10), some of the members here are going crazy and adding three or four new aircraft and engine types.



In coming years, paf will be left with just jf17s, f16s and j10s, so only 3 types of aircraft and 3 engine types. 

Today with j10 or tomorrow, ultimately the chinese engine will come to paf.

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## GOAT

The Eagle said:


> Currently, whatever being said on internet and as revealed by officials through different channels; is merely the tip of iceberg. Having said that, if even 40% of the desired modernization is revealed; I bet people will remain in shock for at-least couple of weeks if not a month.


Chaley bas 40% hee bata dein Eagle bhai.😁


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## TaimiKhan

Bleek said:


> But that's an aircraft.
> 
> Can't be:
> Drones
> Jets
> Helicopters
> AD systems
> 
> As he said no aircrafts or AD systems.
> 
> What else has been rumoured to be a purchase?



Ooppssss, helis are called aircrafts ??

I must check the definition of aircraft. 😁😁

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## rAli

Deino said:


> It's fake ... it is in fact an early production J-10C posted on 13. November 2017 and as uch surely has an AL-31FN.
> 
> View attachment 809862


Thank you! @Deino … The CGs are getting too good for my eyes.


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## GOAT

TaimiKhan said:


> Ooppssss, helis are called aircrafts ??
> 
> I must check the definition of aircraft. 😁😁


Z-10ME, final answer.


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## War Historian

TaimiKhan said:


> Ooppssss, helis are called aircrafts ??
> 
> I must check the definition of aircraft. 😁😁


Rotary wing aircraft 😜


siegecrossbow said:


> That's what I think too. F-16V is the best choice for PAF. No extra fighter type or extra engine type to maintain, compatible with existing pilot and weapons and PAF has almost 4 decades of experience operating the variant. But unfortunately that is no longer an option, but instead of adding just one fighter type and engine type (J-10C and WS-10), some of the members here are going crazy and adding three or four new aircraft and engine types.


Sir if those F-16 block 70 would come, then again it's a new GE engine not the other P&W engines. Because new F-16 are only coming with GE engines. Thanks

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## MIRauf

TaimiKhan said:


> Ooppssss, helis are called aircrafts ??
> 
> I must check the definition of aircraft. 😁😁


aka, Rotary Aircraft


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## aliyusuf

TaimiKhan said:


> ... ultimately the chinese engine will come to paf.


PAF has been operating F-6 and A-5 (Chinese twin-engined) and F-7/F-7PG (Chinese single-engined) aircraft for almost 3 decades respectively. 

Chinese technology and build quality are much better today than they were back then.

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## Bleek

TaimiKhan said:


> Ooppssss, helis are called aircrafts ??
> 
> I must check the definition of aircraft. 😁😁


Bhai I thought you had made a mistake for a second too, that's why I wrote that message, as you may correct it and we could narrow it down 😅


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## truthseeker2010

TaimiKhan said:


> Now let me say this also, one new procurement will come in end of 2023 or 2024.



Another *"Fierce" *addition in the fleet of Pakistan's military!


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## cssniper

siegecrossbow said:


> That's what I think too. F-16V is the best choice for PAF. No extra fighter type or extra engine type to maintain, compatible with existing pilot and weapons and PAF has almost 4 decades of experience operating the variant. But unfortunately that is no longer an option, but instead of adding just one fighter type and engine type (J-10C and WS-10), some of the members here are going crazy and adding three or four new aircraft and engine types.


Still there is possibility for PAF to get these birds, you know... ￼￼haha


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## siegecrossbow

War Historian said:


> Rotary wing aircraft 😜
> 
> Sir if those F-16 block 70 would come, then again it's a new GE engine not the other P&W engines. Because new F-16 are only coming with GE engines. Thanks



They could come with P&W engines, just not from the U.S.


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## SQ8

siegecrossbow said:


> They could come with P&W engines, just not from the U.S.


Poland is also co-manufacturing them for their airforce


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## Goritoes

TaimiKhan said:


> Nothing among the 2 bro.
> 
> Challooo a big hint, its already in the news being heard.
> 
> Busss ab itnaa kafi hai.



Aircraft carrier

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## Big_bud

The Eagle said:


> People needs to understand that PAF is regarded as a top class fighting force highly disciplined and at par with any modern force out there despite of limited resources/options. In no way, any one should have a doubt on this. Even though, I didn't acknowledged neither claimed anything on AL-31F but one has to keep in mind that PAF is not going to compromise. That being said, whether AL-31F or WS-10; the top notch will be chosen by blue boys. IF J-10CP is here, it is going to be the spear head for PAF and in that area, there is no other option but to get the best out of it. I will hold down myself till the birds lands. We will then discuss as how, when it happened---- who was in China since when and in-fact how many of us (almost 6 members) knew from early 2019 or even before that.
> 
> I acknowledge & agree what @SQ8 used to say that any information which is for personal delight, shouldn't come to the internet unless Source say so. Secondly, any responsible person having information on any such topic, wouldn't compromise the OPSEC for few brownie points. Lastly, we all need to act responsibly. Either the J-10 or as I used to say, not only J-10 but a lot coming; means it is a huge responsibility to keep things close to your chest until the time comes.
> 
> Getting back to the topic; AL-31F has its own advantages and PAF sees that close coordination with big wigs for the future of Pakistan Defence Industries. A lot has been settled and clarified between Pakistan-Russia and I wouldn't shy to accept that thanks to China for playing a bigger role in this regard. This is same as like how Pakistan played a bigger role to clear the path for Chinese reaching the Gulf Defence Industry.
> 
> Currently, whatever being said on internet and as revealed by officials through different channels; is merely the tip of iceberg. Having said that, if even 40% of the desired modernization is revealed; I bet people will remain in shock for at-least couple of weeks if not a month.
> 
> Have you ever seen me opposing particular platform or even trying to say that so & so person is making such a stupid claim that if J-15 or J-16 or any Flanker is coming? I bet you wouldn't find me seriously doing so. You know why? I do not look at merely a platform or an opinion of someone wishing PAF to have a flanker. What interests me, is the case of seeing far beyond just a platform or an equipment. I am more interested into things impacting Country's Defence in long future.
> 
> I believe that any professional force like PAF just do not buy an equipment to live through the day and survive for tomorrow. You might not believe but PAF plans for 30+ years to the least if anything is procured or inducted into the active operations. By that logic & tactics; one can easily understand that which tech might get interest of PAF and how come the same can benefit Defence of the Country by any means or different ways. While pointing to something being interested to PAF; just pay close attention to the benefits and future lies ahead in-form of that particular platform/equipment, people will get the idea as how PAF or PN or PA is planning. How beneficial it is and how this is going to support in very long run.
> 
> If we are talking about AL-31F engine with J-10C for PAF; I wouldn't deny that plainly rather be looking at AZM becoming reality, an NGF becomes the reality and taking shape, a defence industry of Pakistan moving forward and all these factors will be combined with the help of Friends indeed. PAF may not be bringing the AL-31F or WS-10 merely for the sake of it. Trust me. It has more to do with future tech, development and progress being made to meet with modern warfare challenges. I have no doubt that Russia, China & Turkiye are already helping in different areas and the future path has been set.
> 
> Unfortunately, public denial is because of an ill painted picture of Pakistan. Don't take me wrong (everyone) but not everyone has to stomach to digest what PAF, PN or PA has been up-to. Unfortunately, most of us never tried to look at the right side of the picture but this is us keep asking for everything on platter and being spoon fed. I am not denying the fact of OpSec and secrecy level being maintained by Pakistan or China as everyone does so but did everyone belittle the particular nation or undermine them as if their defence capability is nothing at par in modern times. Surprisingly, no one ever could get the idea as how Pakistan has been the center of power struggle in the region and plays a major role to set rules. No one ever could look at things that Pakistan did. It is a dilemma but a reality since majority believes in the narrative being pushed by leading or major media outlets. There is a less of interest by the people to dig deeper and look at the things as they are instead of how they tell us to believe.
> 
> The reason as of the same proven fact that PAF do not race into quantity with the rival but always comes ahead of quality and delivering the result. This is all about to control the end game.



Pakistan armed forces and our men are certainly our pride and honor! We love our boys and we stand with them, ready to mix our blood with theirs for our country any day. But having said that, they are no supermen or martians aliens. They are very much Pakistani humans. Patriotism and optimism are double edged swords. We hear glorifying statements all too frequently about our forces and im not a big fan tbh.

With all due respect offcourse. Why we still have mirage 3s & 5s if we are thinking 30yrs ahead? Why by 2000s they were all not retired and replaced already? 30 yrs? 2022 is our first National Defence Policy announced only 74 years after freedom!

You see, I have a growing bitterness towards this attitude. Super sacred-ism that we sometimes associate to our armed forces. Nothing good on ground comes out of it. PA, PAF, PN are made of Pakistanis. Pakistanis are very casual, slow and laid back people, often somewhat ridiculous in their ideas and beliefs. The DNA of king dynasties and split N divide of colonialism perhaps still runs in our blood. We do have "some" hand full of bright people no doubt. But a lot of politics, negativity and bullshit also goes on within armed forces just like any other institute of our country. Our armed forces are only slightly better than national average in professionalism and productivity.

So no one should really believe that there is any super human force at their back! The sooner we separate reality from obsession the better it is. Praise where due but i'm sure theres no astonishment thats gona befall out of a F7 or Mirage 3 mid air. No matter how much patritoism, love and elbow grease you throw at a suzuki FX, its not becoming any 2022 vitz because of it.

P.S. I do have several people of my family in armed forces. They are all trying to serve country honestly and are bright as well. Much respect & love for all serving our country but I dont like rosey picture reports.

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## araz

Big_bud said:


> Pakistan armed forces and our men are certainly our pride and honor! We love our boys and we stand with them, ready to mix our blood with theirs for our country any day. But having said that, they are no supermen or martians aliens. They are very much Pakistani humans. Patriotism and optimism are double edged swords. We hear glorifying statements all too frequently about our forces and im not a big fan tbh.
> 
> With all due respect offcourse. Why we still have mirage 3s & 5s if we are thinking 30yrs ahead? Why by 2000s they were all not retired and replaced already? 30 yrs? 2022 is our first National Defence Policy announced only 74 years after freedom!
> 
> You see, I have a growing bitterness towards this attitude. Super sacred-ism that we sometimes associate to our armed forces. Nothing good on ground comes out of it. PA, PAF, PN are made of Pakistanis. Pakistanis are very casual, slow and laid back people, often somewhat ridiculous in their ideas and beliefs. The DNA of king dynasties and split N divide of colonialism perhaps still runs in our blood. We do have "some" hand full of bright people no doubt. But a lot of politics, negativity and bullshit also goes on within armed forces just like any other institute of our country. Our armed forces are only slightly better than national average in professionalism and productivity.
> 
> So no one should really believe that there is any super human force at their back! The sooner we separate reality from obsession the better it is. Praise where due but i'm sure theres no astonishment thats gona befall out of a F7 or Mirage 3 mid air. No matter how much patritoism, love and elbow grease you throw at a suzuki FX, its not becoming any 2022 vitz because of it.
> 
> P.S. I do have several people of my family in armed forces. They are all trying to serve country honestly and are bright as well. Much respect & love for all serving our country but I dont like rosey picture reports.


You are right in many ways. We have our black sheep and lazy so and sos as well. However there are brighter people as well as you pointed out. The problem is not the procurement but the money for it. Our finances have been in dump for at least the last 4 decades. This has caused us to make compromises in so many fields. So take that factor into consideration.
The other factor of note is the willingness of the providers to provide. It is in part related to our finances as well but mostly "the powers that be's" perception of how strong Pak defences should be vis a vis India. So at crucial stages technologies/hardware have not been provided to us. The ban on 16s, E3s, Chinooks, and the RC400 AND MICA saga comes to mind as just a few examples, along with bumping up the Price of M2Ks (refurbished MwK5 at 6p million a pop) and pushing Rafale towards us knowing fully well we will not be able to afford the plane.
Lastly I agree to a great extent we wasted the first 30 years by not setting up ancillary industries to start building products at home. Plans for building tanks/guns and ammo were not enacted due to purely corrupt practices and criminal negligence. This is still impacting our productivity and compromised us badly during 65 and 71. However a lot of these decisions were taken by heads of state rather than the armed forces ( agreed that some of these morons were from the armed forces).
A

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## abdulbarijan

araz said:


> I personally think the news has been leaked via Sheikh Rasheed. I dont specifically know why it was done but he is known as the Pindi boy and is close to military circles. Ido not think there is a need to announce it if the Chimese are bronging their J10s over. The mannerisms sugfest these are our own planes. My 2 paisas worth.
> A


I would also agree with that, but given our checkered history of acquisitions not going through, I'm in the boat of lets wait and see till these birds land. 

After all, I still haven't recovered from the "FC-20's landing in 2015" trauma so I hope you get where I'm coming from.

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## Deino

SQ8 said:


> Poland is also co-manufacturing them for their airforce




But regardless who manufactures certain parts or even engines for LM, it remains still a US system and as such if the US ban it from exoirt to Pakistan from the US, why should they allow an export via Turkey, Poland or whomever?

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## TNT

Some people just dont have the capability to see beyond 3 feet. Who would want to use mirages in 2022? Who would want to drive a suzuki fx when there are new models available?? Yes the ones that dont have money. I guess this simple fact is too complex for many to understand.

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## Bleek

Big_bud said:


> PA, PAF, PN are made of Pakistanis. Pakistanis are very casual, slow and laid back people, often somewhat ridiculous in their ideas and beliefs. The DNA of king dynasties and split N divide of colonialism perhaps still runs in our blood.


Somewhat disagree with this, remember these are the people who risk their lives out there and are responsible for national security, not the average civilian.

Just back in 2019, they witnessed how real the risk is, and numerous times before.

You would probably be correct in any other institution, but I think it's unlikely here.

Also the close mixing with the Chinese military has had a positive influence on them, you cannot be so closely linked with them without adopting similar habits and a desire to progress! 

They know what's required, and will work out a way to achieve that within their limitations. I'm a firm believer in this.

If there's one thing you can pick up from the Chinese in this relationship, it should be work culture and a desire to progress. If you have that, even with the amount of shit that happens in Pakistan, you will still grow.

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## arjunk

TaimiKhan said:


> In coming years, paf will be left with just jf17s, f16s and j10s, so only 3 types of aircraft and 3 engine types.
> 
> Today with j10 or tomorrow, ultimately the chinese engine will come to paf.


I hope they strip weapon systems from Mirages and let civilians privately own them

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## araz

Deino said:


> But regardless who manufactures certain parts or even engines for LM, it remains still a US system and as such if the US ban it from exoirt to Pakistan from the US, why should they allow an export via Turkey, Poland or whomever?


While I agree with the gist of your post, can I say that officially there is no ban on sales to PAF, provided it foots the bill. However, if we are requiring Bl72s we will have to go through Congress and I think technically there are risks of it not getting approved or sanctioned half way through. I think that prospect and the fact that PAF feels it wants to release its held back CSF by acquiring US hardware with it (which has no become a pipe dream unless Pakistan gets embroiled in another US misadventure) is what is holding things back. I think this is what the official picture is reading international news.
My worthless contribution for the day.
A

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## araz

TNT said:


> Some people just dont have the capability to see beyond 3 feet. Who would want to use mirages in 2022? Who would want to drive a suzuki fx when there are new models available?? Yes the ones that dont have money. I guess this simple fact is too complex for many to understand.


Allow me to give you a narrative which looks at another point of view while supporting your view. I have(Supposedly) 2 cars. a small two seater citigo by VW and a Bentley. The citigo gets from A to B in quick time as I can weave through traffic whereas the Bentley is a drag to drive in rush hour(Plus the 2 miles a gallon consumption does not help either). My work place requires me to go into the city in dense traffic but due to some nifty weaving I get to work in 20 minutes. The same ride in the Bentley takes me 35 minutes. I go out regularly on excursions with my family and the Bentley is a dream to travel in on those occasions, The fuel consumption almost doubles due to continuous constant speed driving . How would you suggest I use my cars for (A) city and work use and (B) for excursions on the highways.
The M3/5s are being used for a couple of reasons which appear to be very cogent. They have a niche role as air to ground/night time attack, in which they are good due to their low level handling, high speed, Cheap cost, ample spares /local limited manufacturing of spares. There is relatively higher attrition however the cost factor makes them a good platform to use for this purpose. With the advent of Drones some of these functions may be taken over but while PAF/PA builds up capacity, devises strategy change and revalidates it, the M3/5s will be there in that role. The interesting thing is how PAF/PAA strategy will change with increasing number of drones plus increasing capabilities on them.
A

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## The Eagle

Bleek said:


> But that's an aircraft.
> 
> Can't be:
> Drones
> Jets
> Helicopters
> AD systems
> 
> As he said no aircrafts or AD systems.
> 
> What else has been rumoured to be a purchase?



Boomer

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## araz

CodeforFood said:


> My thought is that if we are indeed getting russian engines on J10C, then they may be older used J10C and that will also explain how we can foot the bill. I don't think for our need the higher thrust is the only deciding factor from performance perspective.


China will not spare its own inventory for anyone. It is desperately short of 4th generation fighters and facing India on one side , Taiwan on the other side plus South China Sea is also not settled spot. So they might manufacture some for PAF on short notice but will not loosen their current inventory.

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## Bleek

The Eagle said:


> Boomer


How is that linked to my message 🥲


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## The Eagle

Big_bud said:


> Pakistan armed forces and our men are certainly our pride and honor! We love our boys and we stand with them, ready to mix our blood with theirs for our country any day. But having said that, they are no supermen or martians aliens. They are very much Pakistani humans. Patriotism and optimism are double edged swords. We hear glorifying statements all too frequently about our forces and im not a big fan tbh.
> 
> With all due respect offcourse. Why we still have mirage 3s & 5s if we are thinking 30yrs ahead? Why by 2000s they were all not retired and replaced already? 30 yrs? 2022 is our first National Defence Policy announced only 74 years after freedom!
> 
> You see, I have a growing bitterness towards this attitude. Super sacred-ism that we sometimes associate to our armed forces. Nothing good on ground comes out of it. PA, PAF, PN are made of Pakistanis. Pakistanis are very casual, slow and laid back people, often somewhat ridiculous in their ideas and beliefs. The DNA of king dynasties and split N divide of colonialism perhaps still runs in our blood. We do have "some" hand full of bright people no doubt. But a lot of politics, negativity and bullshit also goes on within armed forces just like any other institute of our country. Our armed forces are only slightly better than national average in professionalism and productivity.
> 
> So no one should really believe that there is any super human force at their back! The sooner we separate reality from obsession the better it is. Praise where due but i'm sure theres no astonishment thats gona befall out of a F7 or Mirage 3 mid air. No matter how much patritoism, love and elbow grease you throw at a suzuki FX, its not becoming any 2022 vitz because of it.
> 
> P.S. I do have several people of my family in armed forces. They are all trying to serve country honestly and are bright as well. Much respect & love for all serving our country but I dont like rosey picture reports.



Nobody claim them to be super human except that you keep repeating in a single post.

However, all the shortcomings hit you when you have very little pockets and bigger enemy. You can't just blame everything on minds since there is economic problem. In easy words, an empty mind becomes the den for devil to play wrong ideas. Since you don't have that luxury to buy, there comes your haters with ideas like short sighted, small minded, narrow thinking, lazy, compromised, reactive and whatever definition hits you. Just look at our neighbor with every penny at disposal for their Armed Forces having their hands full of everything from the market but still coming short of tactics or capability or skills to come at par PAF if not above. If we had such a luxury to spend $$ here & there; I would then call most of them traitors & lazy. Since economics play a major role; it is just not that easy to blame hierarchy with everything as such. These negatives happens when you don't have such ergonomics due to lack of strong economy. But is that a compromise of national security? I don't think it is of that level. No... not all given the security proof and ops being carried.

Mirages to be retired in 2000 or not; we have to look at our options, resources, reach & pockets. It is not black & white to keep wishing for shiny gadgets while turning a blind eye to the short comings back at home. Yes there's no super human but there are limitations & circumstances to deal in such an environment and still turn out be victor. Nobody is sharing rosy pictures to delude or mislead anyone. If you have surely people in the Armed Forces; you must know that despite of all of short comings, how boys did well and still doing so. That's the point to ponder. If you want to see the rosy picture, do you own a private jet or heli at all to travel fast, pray that we have a strong economy & $ at disposal as we wish and then let see if the men in uniform are still making blunders as we say.

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## Trailer23

War Historian said:


> Sir if those F-16 block 70 would come, then again it's a new GE engine not the other P&W engines. *Because new F-16 are only coming with GE engines.* Thanks




I'm sorry, but when did _this_ development take place  ?

Lockheed Martin hasn't made any announcement that they are parting ways with P&W for supplying engines.

I think its pretty obvious since they are still marketing it as Block 70/*72* on their Official Website.
F-16 Block 70/72





Furthermore, the Royal Moroccan Air Force have already placed orders for 25 Block 72's...

Defense Security Cooperation Agency





@Hodor @Windjammer @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @GriffinsRule @ziaulislam

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## Maler

araz said:


> @tphuang and @Deino.
> I think if one looks at this conundrum it is very confusing. The arguments both for and against AL31FN are very cogent. The problem remains the lack of information about the Chinese engines. Basic information like thrust, MTBO, ability to produce in numbers is lacking. On the other hand the timing of the purchase points to PAF waiting for the WS10 to mature.
> No one can deny that Chinese are very new in engine manufacturing. We know from looking at development of engines that newer engines often face reliability/technical issues which need ironing out.
> Looking at it from PAF'S perspective they have so far resisted a transfer over to WS13 in spite of Chinese insistence. They have not even agreed to get the RD93MA for the same reason(possibly). So my question remains why is it not plausible for PAF's J10 to have AL31 FN? It may be that with the advent of WS10 the Russians no longer have any interest in keeping AL31FN away from PAF since IAF has not bought any planes. PAF now have options and the simple adage of "if you cannot beat them join them" applies here.
> I understand that the fact the Chinese have not bought any AL31s for 3 years means the news lacks credibility. Iam just saying we will need to wait and see how/when the information is released as arguments on both sides are very strong and no side can provide satisfactory answers as to why they feel the other possibility does not exist.
> Regards
> A



Most probably AL-31FN will be coming with J-10CE and that might be the reason India canceled 21 refurbished Mig-29 deal!!! Just an assumption!!!!!


Waiting said:


> For 2023-24, keep in mind J 20



Most probably JH-7!!!


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## Trailer23

Maler said:


> Most probably AL-31FN will be coming with J-10CE


Nope.

We're going with the Chinese this time around.


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## Maler

Trailer23 said:


> Nope.
> 
> We're going with the Chinese this time around.



Least likely, Chinese engine tech is not fully matured yet! I don't think PAF can afford experimentation!


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## Trailer23

Maler said:


> Least likely, Chinese engine tech is not fully matured yet! I don't think PAF can afford experimentation!


I'll be sure to quote you once you're proven wrong in a couple of months.

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## War Historian

siegecrossbow said:


> They could come with P&W engines, just not from the U.S.


Yes Sir, but that would be older F-16 upgraded as block 72 with Pratt & Whitney engines. Because the new ones are only Using General Electric engines.


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## Trailer23

War Historian said:


> Yes Sir, but that would be older F-16 upgraded as block 72 with Pratt & Whitney engines. Because the new ones are only Using General Electric engines.


Again, where did you get this information from?


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## araz

Maler said:


> Most probably AL-31FN will be coming with J-10CE and that might be the reason India canceled 21 refurbished Mig-29 deal!!! Just an assumption!!!!!
> 
> 
> Most probably JH-7!!!


Do you have to push India into the fray without any rhyme or reason? Can you please let your Indo centric ego have a rest.
JH7. OK> Now I know what I am dealing with. Bhai a plane that was rejected in the 90s as being underpowered and having the flying pattern of a brick will be chosen in 2022 when PLAAF has stopped production for the last 3-4 years at least???

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## lcloo

Maler said:


> Least likely, Chinese engine tech is not fully matured yet! I don't think PAF can afford experimentation!


No, WS-10 engine is already a matured engine. All J11B from batch 2 onwards are fitted with WS-10 engines, also batch 1 J11B which was originally fitted with Russian engines are now being re-engined with Chinese WS-10 engines.

Aircraft using WS-10 engines are J10C, J11B, J16, J16D and J20II. At least 800 engines have been delivered.

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## War Historian

Trailer23 said:


> Again, where did you get this information from?


Sir you also visited the LM website, where they have mention,
engine power : 29000 lbs class
And here the two types of engines with power output. GE only matching the 29000 pounds class. P&W clearly outclass by GE. And one thing more most of the new customers are going with GE engines. Only as per your answer Morocco is going with P&W engines.


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## Trailer23

War Historian said:


> And one thing more most of the new customers are going with GE engines. Only as per your answer Morocco is going with P&W engines.


Oh i'm not questioning which is _the_ better Engine & which kicks out the best thrust.

I was merely questioning...


> Because new F-16 are *only* coming with GE engines.





> Because the new ones are *only* Using General Electric engines.


Because (twice) you gave the nod to GE being the "*only*" engines that will be coming with the newer Block.

Yes, GE has commonly been the preferred choice - however in P&W have been the popular engines in this part of the World & are still associated with the upcoming Block (72).


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## War Historian

Trailer23 said:


> Oh i'm not questioning which is _the_ better Engine & which kicks out the best thrust.
> 
> I was merely questioning...
> 
> 
> Because (twice) you gave the nod to GE being the "*only*" engines that will be coming with the newer Block.
> 
> Yes, GE has commonly been the preferred choice - however in P&W have been the popular engines in this part of the World & are still associated with the upcoming Block (72).


If P&W does not match their brochure than it means, its out of the race. Very simple


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## Trailer23

War Historian said:


> If P&W does not match their brochure than it means, its out of the race. Very simple


Which brochure? What race are you even referring to?

Just 'cause LM just gave the specs of one powerplant, you're assuming that they've dropped the other one after 4-decades...

If LM was planning on putting an end to the partnership with P&W they never would have mentioned the term 'Block 72' on their official site.

But, if there is a Official Statement from LM or an article from a renowned Media like Flight Mag, Aviation Week or Shepard that back your claim - i'll say "ok, you're right". But there has to be substance other than assumptions based off an online "brochure".

Here is the official Product Card
F-16 Product Card

LM doesn't care about which engine they have to stick in one of their birds 'cause they don't make a dime off it. The cost of engine goes to its developer.

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## kursed

China is producing more than 300 WS-10 a year (upping to 450 by 2026), and putting it on everything from J16s to J10s to J15 and J11s, basically their entire front-line aircraft. But it's not a mature design. =)

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## GumNaam

kursed said:


> China is producing more than 300 WS-10 a year (upping to 450 by 2026), and putting it on everything from J16s to J10s to J15 and J11s, basically their entire front-line aircraft. But it's not a mature design. =)


I think the J10Cs that PAF is getting will have the WS-10 engines, the ones with TVC.

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## kursed

GumNaam said:


> I think the J10Cs that PAF is getting will have the WS-10 engines, the ones with TVC.


I doubt it very much that PAF would want TVC on their birds, given they're getting PL10 and HMDs with it.

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## GumNaam

kursed said:


> I doubt it very much that PAF would want TVC on their birds, given they're getting PL10 and HMDs with it.


doesn't hurt to have. HOBS missiles aren't 3 dimensional 360 degrees, TVC will help in bringing any target into the HOBS sight and quickly as opposed to having to carry out traditional in turn maneuvers. Also, it'll have a psychological impact on the already nerve wrecked indian pilots...


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## kursed

GumNaam said:


> doesn't hurt to have. HOBS missiles aren't 3 dimensional 360 degrees, TVC will help in bringing any target into the HOBS sight and quickly as opposed to having to carry out traditional in turn maneuvers.


Additional build times, experimental engine, added weight. = No reason to put it on your frontline aircraft. It's the same thing when fanboys see all weapons belonging to a unit, hanging on to JF-17 (on a patch) and thinking that this is its combat load. It is not. It can barely take off under that weight, let alone fly to fight.

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## GumNaam

kursed said:


> Additional build times, experimental engine, added weight. = No reason to put it on your frontline aircraft. It's the same thing when fanboys see all weapons belonging to a unit, hanging on to JF-17 (on a patch) and thinking that this is its combat load. It is not. It can barely take off under that weight, let alone fly to fight.


it won't be an experimental engine, WS-10 with TVC on the J-10Bs have been tested and demonstrated a over 3 years ago and has matured more since.

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## kursed

GumNaam said:


> it won't be an experimental engine, WS-10 with TVC on the J-10Bs have been tested and demonstrated a over 3 years ago and has matured more since.


Ok.

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## krash

Bleek said:


> How is that linked to my message 🥲



Not that. Ballistic missile submarines are often referred to as "boomers".

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## CodeforFood

krash said:


> Not that. Ballistic missile submarines are often referred to as "boomers".





kursed said:


> Ok.


This thread seems like a combination of same stuff repeated numerous time(over and over and over again). Its exhausting!

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## tphuang

There is a couple of things I want to address here. First of all, I would consider WS-10 to be quite mature by this point. It's true that back in 2015, AL-31F probably did have long service life and reliability than WS-10. But we've gone through several years of flying now and PLAAF have been using its on J-10C for a couple of years without any major incidents. The original design spec for WS-10 had higher MTBO requirements than AL-31. Now that both engines are mature, I would imagine WS-10B currently would have better in service MTBO period than AL-31FN. More importantly, China is now producing massive quantities of WS-10 every year. You are probably going to have better after service care from China on WS-10B than you would from Russians on AL-31FN. IAF's AL-31FP issues with Russians is pretty well known. I'm not sure why people are acting like Russia is the hallmark of reliability. It's pretty bad.

Secondly, we've only had the one known J-10C prototype with TVC. It would be quite crazy for PAF to opt for that.

Thirdly, I actually don't think F-16V is a good choice for PAF at this point. It probably is an adequate option against Rafale, but there is not much growth left in the F-16 platform. F-16 at this point is maxed out in terms of what you can fit in there. It's already lost agility in order to fit AESA radar in there. In comparison, I think J-10C at this point can fit more larger/more powerful radar and electronics in there and will probably have more powerful engine to support that. There should be some growth left in J-10 program still.

Fourth, I don't get this fascination with saying that PAF never compromises on quality and always needs the best. That's simply not true for any Air Force, let alone when that faces a massive resource disadvantage again its biggest rival. The only Air Force who can always get the best is USAF. Everyone else, including China, needs to be realistic about their options based on who they can acquire from and what their budgets are. If you want to use IAF's strategy of shooting for the moon and fantasizing about exporter's marketing brochures, then you are going to end up as a smaller and weaker version of IAF. That would be a terrible strategy for PAF. PAF needs to make cost conscience decisions on what's most available that can immediately improve its capability and allow it continue to be a strong deterrence to an opponent with massive resource advantage. Getting J-10C now is about getting a strong deterrence against an obvious threat to balance of power in the form of Rafale. PAF cannot wait 5 years and sink a bunch of money into getting something else that looks good on paper. It wants IAF to continue to keep doing that.

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## Rafi

tphuang said:


> There is a couple of things I want to address here. First of all, I would consider WS-10 to be quite mature by this point. It's true that back in 2015, AL-31F probably did have long service life and reliability than WS-10. But we've gone through several years of flying now and PLAAF have been using its on J-10C for a couple of years without any major incidents. The original design spec for WS-10 had higher MTBO requirements than AL-31. Now that both engines are mature, I would imagine WS-10B currently would have better in service MTBO period than AL-31FN. More importantly, China is now producing massive quantities of WS-10 every year. You are probably going to have better after service care from China on WS-10B than you would from Russians on AL-31FN. IAF's AL-31FP issues with Russians is pretty well known. I'm not sure why people are acting like Russia is the hallmark of reliability. It's pretty bad.
> 
> Secondly, we've only had the one known J-10C prototype with TVC. It would be quite crazy for PAF to opt for that.
> 
> Thirdly, I actually don't think F-16V is a good choice for PAF at this point. It probably is an adequate option against Rafale, but there is not much growth left in the F-16 platform. F-16 at this point is maxed out in terms of what you can fit in there. It's already lost agility in order to fit AESA radar in there. In comparison, I think J-10C at this point can fit more larger/more powerful radar and electronics in there and will probably have more powerful engine to support that. There should be some growth left in J-10 program still.
> 
> Fourth, I don't get this fascination with saying that PAF never compromises on quality and always needs the best. That's simply not true for any Air Force, let alone when that faces a massive resource disadvantage again its biggest rival. The only Air Force who can always get the best is USAF. Everyone else, including China, needs to be realistic about their options based on who they can acquire from and what their budgets are. If you want to use IAF's strategy of shooting for the moon and fantasizing about exporter's marketing brochures, then you are going to end up as a smaller and weaker version of IAF. That would be a terrible strategy for PAF. PAF needs to make cost conscience decisions on what's most available that can immediately improve its capability and allow it continue to be a strong deterrence to an opponent with massive resource advantage. Getting J-10C now is about getting a strong deterrence against an obvious threat to balance of power in the form of Rafale. PAF cannot wait 5 years and sink a bunch of money into getting something else that looks good on paper. It wants IAF to continue to keep doing that.



Good points and I agree totally.

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## syed_yusuf

tphuang said:


> There is a couple of things I want to address here. First of all, I would consider WS-10 to be quite mature by this point. It's true that back in 2015, AL-31F probably did have long service life and reliability than WS-10. But we've gone through several years of flying now and PLAAF have been using its on J-10C for a couple of years without any major incidents. The original design spec for WS-10 had higher MTBO requirements than AL-31. Now that both engines are mature, I would imagine WS-10B currently would have better in service MTBO period than AL-31FN. More importantly, China is now producing massive quantities of WS-10 every year. You are probably going to have better after service care from China on WS-10B than you would from Russians on AL-31FN. IAF's AL-31FP issues with Russians is pretty well known. I'm not sure why people are acting like Russia is the hallmark of reliability. It's pretty bad.
> 
> Secondly, we've only had the one known J-10C prototype with TVC. It would be quite crazy for PAF to opt for that.
> 
> Thirdly, I actually don't think F-16V is a good choice for PAF at this point. It probably is an adequate option against Rafale, but there is not much growth left in the F-16 platform. F-16 at this point is maxed out in terms of what you can fit in there. It's already lost agility in order to fit AESA radar in there. In comparison, I think J-10C at this point can fit more larger/more powerful radar and electronics in there and will probably have more powerful engine to support that. There should be some growth left in J-10 program still.
> 
> Fourth, I don't get this fascination with saying that PAF never compromises on quality and always needs the best. That's simply not true for any Air Force, let alone when that faces a massive resource disadvantage again its biggest rival. The only Air Force who can always get the best is USAF. Everyone else, including China, needs to be realistic about their options based on who they can acquire from and what their budgets are. If you want to use IAF's strategy of shooting for the moon and fantasizing about exporter's marketing brochures, then you are going to end up as a smaller and weaker version of IAF. That would be a terrible strategy for PAF. PAF needs to make cost conscience decisions on what's most available that can immediately improve its capability and allow it continue to be a strong deterrence to an opponent with massive resource advantage. Getting J-10C now is about getting a strong deterrence against an obvious threat to balance of power in the form of Rafale. PAF cannot wait 5 years and sink a bunch of money into getting something else that looks good on paper. It wants IAF to continue to keep doing that.



I agree 100%


----------



## siegecrossbow

Young people who worked on the J-10CE. Great work.

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## Trailer23

siegecrossbow said:


> Young people who worked on the J-10CE. Great work.
> 
> View attachment 810301


Looks like College kids. What type of roll were they given in the project?

Structure, Electronics, Avionics or were they giving feedback on the WS-10...


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## siegecrossbow

Trailer23 said:


> Looks like College kids. What type of roll were they given in the project?
> 
> Structure, Electronics, Avionics or were they giving feedback on the WS-10...



You’d be surprised. Look how young one of the designers on the J-20 (responsible for WS-10C integration) is.

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## MH.Yang

Trailer23 said:


> Looks like College kids. What type of roll were they given in the project?
> 
> Structure, Electronics, Avionics or were they giving feedback on the WS-10...



These people are obviously not college students.
They are no younger than 30.

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## cssniper

Trailer23 said:


> Looks like College kids. What type of roll were they given in the project?
> 
> Structure, Electronics, Avionics or were they giving feedback on the WS-10...




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483674723372331009Take notice of the number 9.

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## Raja Porus

krash said:


> Not that. Ballistic missile submarines are often referred to as "boomers".


Quite some time now..


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## Trailer23

cssniper said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483674723372331009Take notice of the number 9.


I don't get it. 

Sorry, what has my initial post have to do with the tweet you posted & which No. 9 should I take notice if?


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## siegecrossbow

Trailer23 said:


> I don't get it.
> 
> Sorry, what has my initial post have to do with the tweet you posted & which No. 9 should I take notice if?



There are 9 people in my photo. Maybe they are the guys assisting with the ejection seat training.


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## cssniper

Trailer23 said:


> I don't get it.
> 
> Sorry, what has my initial post have to do with the tweet you posted & which No. 9 should I take notice if?


The training team mentioned contains 9 person, which matches the photo.


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## Riz



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## araz

War Historian said:


> If P&W does not match their brochure than it means, its out of the race. Very simple


If you are wrong why dont you just accept it. The 16s/70s have GE engines and the 72s jave P&W engine. Please do not continue this useless debate. The 70/72s are available with both engines. This is besides the debate of whether GE is better than P&W. Incidentally the figures you quoted for P&W are those of the pw220 engines which are powering the Block 15s. The PW229 with 29000lb Thrust is in block52s.
I also think that the latest GE engine churnes out 32000lb in thrust although cant remember where I read it.
Regards
A

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## araz

GumNaam said:


> doesn't hurt to have. HOBS missiles aren't 3 dimensional 360 degrees, TVC will help in bringing any target into the HOBS sight and quickly as opposed to having to carry out traditional in turn maneuvers. Also, it'll have a psychological impact on the already nerve wrecked indian pilots...


If the PAF claim of downing an MKI is right then your supposition does not bear weight. Modern missiles let alone HOBS in their kill zones are fairly lethal and once fired the other party has no option but to drop tanks and run for their lives. TVC will add 200kgs of weight will need maintenance every 200 hours for very little benefit.
My 2 paisas worth.
A

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## MH.Yang

araz said:


> If the PAF claim of downing an MKI is right then your supposition does not bear weight. Modern missiles let alone HOBS in their kill zones are fairly lethal and once fired the other party has no option but to drop tanks and run for their lives. TVC will add 200kgs of weight will need maintenance every 200 hours for very little benefit.
> My 2 paisas worth.
> A


China experimented with TVC on J10B, but did not use it for J10C. That's enough to say a lot.

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## GumNaam

araz said:


> If the PAF claim of downing an MKI is right then your supposition does not bear weight. Modern missiles let alone HOBS in their kill zones are fairly lethal and once fired the other party has no option but to drop tanks and run for their lives. TVC will add 200kgs of weight will need maintenance every 200 hours for very little benefit.
> My 2 paisas worth.
> A


it all depends on where the target is now doesn't it? the doomed mki was flying high and was caught n killed at BVR range. but it's entirely possible that an enemy aircraft could be flying close to the ground behind mountain ranges and as soon as he pulls up, it's a close in dog fight from the get go in which case, HOBS will be so much more effective with the interceptor aircraft having TVC, depending on the position of the interceptor, instead of using up 5 vital seconds to traditionally turn to bring the target within the HOBS sight, he can use TVC to turn and bring the target within HOBS sight within 1 second. so it does make a big difference.

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## ummarz

Riz said:


> View attachment 810366


Thats my favourite angle of her, to me no other looks this good from below


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## Bleek

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Wherever I heard about mki shoot down by paf.... I 😂


See the other thread for 27th February 2019, this is for J-10C. There are interviews of people describing the Su-30 kill...

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## TopGun786

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Wherever I heard about mki shoot down by paf.... I 😂


Inside you cry. I know . But that topic does not belong here so I will not go further here.

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## truthseeker2010

Raj-Hindustani said:


> Wherever I heard about mki shoot down by paf.... I 😂



and what happens when you hear mig 21 had f-16?

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## TopGun786

truthseeker2010 said:


> and what happens when you hear mig 21 had f-16?


Nothing happens except a feeling of pity for the Indians who know the truth but just hide their faces like a pigeon when someone tells them M-21 of Abhinandan was fully jammed by PAF EWF system that day. The poor lad did not even know he was when he was shot down like a duck. All four of his unfired missiles along with pieces of unfortunate jet, his helmet, ''patloon'' and pride of India are hung on the wall of PAF museum.

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## NA71

Dear Members, Please use Social Media power to persuade PTV authorities to arrange/prepare for high quality (near High Definition ) coverage of upcoming March 23 Pakistan Day parade ...it would be Pakistan's 75th Pakistan day parade that will also host dignitaries such as Crown Prince MBS and OIC foreign ministers.

The other main feature will be the Fly past of J10C and probably the first official appearance of JF17B3.

Media Coverage with TV cams of 1960s would ruin the event .....

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## Bleek

NA71 said:


> Dear Members, Please use Social Media power to persuade PTV authorities to arrange/prepare for high quality (near High Definition ) coverage of upcoming March 23 Pakistan Day parade ...it would be Pakistan's 75th Pakistan day parade that will also host dignitaries such as Crown Prince MBS and OIC foreign ministers.
> 
> The other main feature will be the Fly past of J10C and probably the first official appearance of JF17B3.
> 
> Media Coverage with TV cams of 1960s would ruin the event .....


Twitter is probably the best way to reach them? E-mail maybe?

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## NA71

Bleek said:


> Twitter is probably the best way to reach them? E-mail maybe?


Most relevant Twitter Handles..

@PTVNewsOfficial
@PTVHomeOfficial

MD PTV 
Mr. Aamer Manzoor
Email: md@ptv.com.pk

farrukh Habib
State Minister for Information & Broadcasting 

Twitter Handle @FarrukhHabibISF

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## NA71

Crown Prince MBS will be chief guest along with OIC FMs ...revealed by Interior minister today in a presser.

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## maverick1977

Going full blitz if its true !


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## NA71

NA71 said:


> Crown Prince MBS will be chief guest along with OIC FMs ...revealed by Interior minister today in a presser.











Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman likely to attend Pakistan Day parade as chief guest - Pakistan Observer


ISLAMABAD – Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman is likely to attend the Pakistan Day parade, which is scheduled for March 23 in Islamabad, as chief guest. Pakistan Day is celebrated across the country to mark the anniversary of a 1940 resolution calling for a separate homeland for...




pakobserver.net

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## SIPRA

NA71 said:


> Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman likely to attend Pakistan Day parade as chief guest - Pakistan Observer
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD – Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman is likely to attend the Pakistan Day parade, which is scheduled for March 23 in Islamabad, as chief guest. Pakistan Day is celebrated across the country to mark the anniversary of a 1940 resolution calling for a separate homeland for...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pakobserver.net



The news is saying "likely".


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## Riz

SIPRA said:


> The news is saying "likely".


Akhri din thapaad mar jay ga hamary munh sharif par 
Klo zaroorat he nhi ksi ko bulany ki

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## rAli

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Quite some time now..


@Desert Fox 1 ..quite some time for what exactly..🤔

1. Boomer in Service? 😁
2. Design stage complete and no proto yet? 🙂
3. Still at design stage ? 😕

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## spectregunship

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484915583627849728
I am not sure if it has been shared...but I have been following this handle for sometime now... often reliable info...

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## Bleek

spectregunship said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484915583627849728
> I am not sure if it has been shared...but I have been following this handle for sometime now... often reliable info...


Why is he using a video of the J-10B with TVC though?

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## The Eagle

@NA71 and others to whom it may concern..... Do not share those click baiting YouTube videos mostly repeating the same thing which is discussed over the forum already. It's like spamming the forum. Not here please.

Regards,

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## untitled

Let's build up the hype with this blast from the past. JF-17 makes it's first entry on 23rd march 2007

The former Air Chief Mujahid Anwar was a Group Captain back then

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## kursed

spectregunship said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484915583627849728
> I am not sure if it has been shared...but I have been following this handle for sometime now... often reliable info...


After a very long time, finally, a true air superiority fighter is joining PAF's ranks. Congratulations and give 'em hell.

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## mingle

kursed said:


> After a very long time, finally, a true air superiority fighter is joining PAF's ranks. Congratulations and give 'em hell.


Any sanaps available so far??


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## aliyusuf

As fortune would have the Thunder well endowed with such a long-ranged FCR, can anyone hazard a guesstimate as to what would be the max detection range of the J-10C's radar? With more TR Modules, the latter should have a longer range, shouldn't it?


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## Path-Finder



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## Deino

spectregunship said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484915583627849728
> I am not sure if it has been shared...but I have been following this handle for sometime now... often reliable info...




No, exactly the opposite! You can surely follow this guy, but beware of "often *unreliable* info..." 

And exactly here it is irrelevant since the PAF surely won't get a TVC-variant, period!

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## NA71

The Eagle said:


> @NA71 and others to whom it may concern..... Do not share those click baiting YouTube videos mostly repeating the same thing which is discussed over the forum already. It's like spamming the forum. Not here please.
> 
> Regards,


Noted.

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## Meliodas

NA71 said:


> Dear Members, Please use Social Media power to persuade PTV authorities to arrange/prepare for high quality (near High Definition ) coverage of upcoming March 23 Pakistan Day parade ...it would be Pakistan's 75th Pakistan day parade that will also host dignitaries such as Crown Prince MBS and OIC foreign ministers.
> 
> The other main feature will be the Fly past of J10C and probably the first official appearance of JF17B3.
> 
> Media Coverage with TV cams of 1960s would ruin the event .....


PTV had a target of making it's national broadcast completly digital by providing HDTV boxes n/w by Jan 26/27, but as far as I know not a single piece has moved because of low funds and unreasonable deadlines. Once it's done I hope all will be able to enjoy hd PTV and it's parade / tournament coverages.


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## tphuang

aliyusuf said:


> As fortune would have the Thunder well endowed with such a long-ranged FCR, can anyone hazard a guesstimate as to what would be the max detection range of the J-10C's radar? With more TR Modules, the latter should have a longer range, shouldn't it?



The exact range really isn't that important. It's great for exporters to promote themselves and for fanboys to boast online, but it's really not that important. Keep in mind that Indian fanboys for years have been spreading online how great Su-30MKI's BARS radar is and how it can search 400 km all. And then, Russian exporters have been boasting about Su-35's Irbis radar having 350 km range vs 3m^2 target. But here is an analysis on why this is significantly overstated.








An in-depth analysis of why the Sukhoi Su-35 is the most overhyped 4th generation fighter aircraft - The Aviation Geek Club


An in-depth analysis of why the Sukhoi Su-35 is the most overhyped 4th generation fighter aircraft




theaviationgeekclub.com





Without knowing the scenario that these numbers are achieved, it's impossible to tell how capable the radar system is.


> ‘Despite being marketed as 4++ gen, Su-35 has the least capable avionics suite among its competitors. It’s the only major 4th gen. aircraft without an AESA radar or any form of Sensor Fusion. The Irbis-E is marketed as having a 350 km range against 3 m^2 target while in reality that’s only in cued-search in a tiny FoV. What’s rarely stated is that in normal volume search that range shrinks down to 200 km.
> 
> 
> ‘More importantly, Su-35’s radar has a maximum targeting range of 250 km – even for a B-52 like target.
> 
> We also see this in Irbis-E’s flight test video where it allegedly detected a single target from 268 km but wasn’t able to get a track until 100 km – all the while having just a single target to track.



Btw, I have not independent verified claims from that link. My point is that exporter claims of a radar's range is meaningless without knowing how they arrived at that number. There is a reason why after China got Su-35, they just couldn't believe how behind the radar and avionics technology on there is compared to J-16. Of course, that has not stopped Indian fanboys online from claiming that their great MKI's radar is as good as J-16's radar. It takes some level of delusion to think Russian radar technology from 15 years ago is as good as China's radar technology from 6 years ago.

Of course, aside from just tracking range, it also matters how well a radar hides itself from RWR of opposing fighter jet. It also matters how well a radar counters EW signals the other side. Back when Rafale was still using PESA radar, they only advertised a detection range of 100 km. But that was against 1 m^2 targets. On top of that, Thales also claimed to have achieved LPI on their PESA radar, which is normally only possible on AESA radar. Nowadays, Rafale apparently have range of 200 km against 3 m^2 targets with its 800+ modules AESA radar. If we just go by range, it's half as good as BARS radar. Does anyone in their right mind think Rafale's radar is half as good as BARS?

But here are things to like about J-10C's radar vs both JF-17 and Rafale
1) There are more T/R modules which should theoretically allow for generation of more radar power, making it less susceptible to jamming, allow for greater tracking resolution and better ability in tracking multiple targets in the air and ground/sea.
2) It also has a larger radar aperture which (along with more T/R modules) theoretically allows radar beam to more accurately steered in a narrow beam to target area allowing for LPI by surrounding aircraft. Just imagine a wide beam emitting strong RF to the entire frontal FOV vs many smaller beams beaming at different targets. How much easier is it to pick up the former vs the latter?
3) Much greater thrust than JF-17, which will allow AESA radar to power EW suite to do stronger jamming.
4) Most likely GaN modules vs GaA modules on Rafale. Greater power in the former.

None of this says J-10C's radar and EW suite is better than Rafale's system. But it seems like they have managed to fit a larger equipment with more power and greater radar aperture on there than Rafale. It would be hard to know if what J-10C has is better for multi-target tracking or for EW warfare, but the potential is there. If we make the assumption that what's on the newly flown J-20S (developed in the past couple of years) is ahead of Rafale's RBE2-AA radar and EW suite (which was developed over 10 years ago using GaA T/R modules) in technology, then it should not surprise people if J-10C could adopt similar technology that will make it better than what Rafale has. There is just much faster improvement in the Chinese military industrial complex than European ones right now due to the much greater resources and investment. When PAF buys J-10C right now, it's buying present capability as well as future capability.

So when thinking about radar range, we should also think about what is its effective range vs Rafale or Sukhoi. What the range is against multiple targets? How hard it is for opposing aircraft to pick up your signals? How hard it is for opposing aircraft to jam/fool your radar? How well does your system present that information to the pilot? A lot of this won't be found out until you start training and find what works and what doesn't work. For example, when China first picked up Su-27, it realized very quickly that su-27's radar gives off its position really quickly and kept losing in training against J-7s. They learnt over time that they had to keep radar off until they get closer to the target.

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## Abid123

Anybody know the unit price of these J-10C?


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## IbnAbdullah

Salaam



tphuang said:


> For example, when China first picked up Su-27, it realized very quickly that su-27's radar gives off its position really quickly and kept losing in training against J-7s. They learnt over time that they had to keep radar off until they get closer to the target.



Interesting post. 

One question though, how would the pilot of su27 know if they are closer to the target if their radar is turned off? Thanks.

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## siegecrossbow

One


IbnAbdullah said:


> Salaam
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting post.
> 
> One question though, how would the pilot of su27 know if they are closer to the target if their radar is turned off? Thanks.



My guess would be either:

1) Use AWAC to provide intercept coordinates. But this was during the late 90s/early 2000s when China didn't have many AWACS, so maybe
2) Flanker's wingman opened its radar to scan for the J-7 and relayed the data to its partner or
3) The pilot used IRST to pick up heat signature. But those have very narrow FOV.

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## Shotgunner51

IbnAbdullah said:


> Salaam
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting post.
> 
> One question though, how would the pilot of su27 know if they are closer to the target if their radar is turned off? Thanks.


Shooter-Spotter combo

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## tphuang

IbnAbdullah said:


> Salaam
> 
> Interesting post.
> 
> One question though, how would the pilot of su27 know if they are closer to the target if their radar is turned off? Thanks.



I don't recall exactly, since I read those parts 7 to 8 years ago. It did open up my mind to just how much closer the actual engagements are taking place despite the maximum search range of radar and of the BVR AAMs. If J-7s could beat Su-27s, that means Su-27s cannot effectively keep tracking a small aircraft at more than 30 km out or utilize R-27s at more than 15 km out that all the engagements all end up as WVR engagements. Maybe Su-27s were detecting J-7s sooner, but J-7s noticed with RWR where Su-27s were coming from and were able to counteract that by breaking that tracking. And just as importantly, BVR AAMs range really don't mean much when the NEZ against a small, fast maneuvering aircraft is under 20 KM. Especially for a semi-active guided missile like R-27, Su-27/Mig-29 will also have to keep lock on the opposing aircraft for pretty much their entire duration. I also remember reading 10 years ago that USAF really wasn't using AIM-120 beyond 30 km against other fighter jet.

Of course, technologies have improved since then. The seekers on the active guided AAMs have gotten better. In the case of PL-15, it even has jam resistant AESA seekers. The newest missiles have better kinetic performance. AESA radars with LPI properties are also allow fighter jets to turn on their radar at longer range. Even with that, you still probably don't want to be firing at a 4th generation aircraft from more than 50 to 60 km out even with the most capable medium/long range AAMs like AIM-120D/PL-15/Meteor. Just think about that little missile seeker coupling with long range guidance from launching or friendly fighter trying to find a fast turning 4th/5th generation jet with the latest generation ECM. After some time, it will run out of energy. Of course, all of this could allow the attacking jet to move closer and fire off second or third missiles to destroy the target jet. On the other hand, it could also cause the target jet fly away more quickly and expose the attacking jet's position to other jets.

As a whole, I don't know if we can just use maximum range of these AAMs to compare them. It's good to know they have long NEZ. That means they have a lot of energy to chase targets. It's also good to know they have advanced seekers and anti-jamming properties, because that will allow them to lock onto target sooner and have better chance of hunting them down. But a lot of times, the engagement will still happen within WVR where SRAAM with the latest IIR seekers, strong IRCCM capabilities and 90 degree off bore sight allow better chance of hunting down advanced, high maneuvering and stealthy fighter jet.

I know I keep coming back to Russians, but they are really behind everyone else in missile, missile seeker and missile CCM technology. The most fanciful aircraft platform isn't going to be able to do that much with 90s era R-73 or early 2000s R-77 against modern fighter jet.

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## NA71

Abid123 said:


> Anybody know the unit price of these J-10C?


approximately US$4000 /Kg.

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## MH.Yang

Abid123 said:


> Anybody know the unit price of these J-10C?


At Paris air show and Dubai international air show, J10CE quoted $40 million. It is rumored on the Internet that the purchase price of PLA is 200 million CNY ($32 million). This should only be the price of the plane, not the price of the plane flying away.

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## IblinI

tphuang said:


> When PAF buys J-10C right now, it's buying present capability as well as future capability.


Right on the spot, PAF seems to have chosen CAC as its strategic partner and we have reason to believed they will work/cooperate with CAC for 5th gen even 6th gen fighter in the future.

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## Polestar 2

IblinI said:


> Right on the spot, PAF seems to have choosen CAC as its strategic partner and we have reason to believed they will work/cooperate with CAC for 5th gen even 6th gen fighter which CAC is currently working on.


But currently, CAC do not offer a fifth gen stealth fighter program. They are not like JF-17. Their development cost are much higher and i doubt CAC are willing to foot half the bill for such specialize private project.

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## IblinI

Polestar 2 said:


> But currently, CAC do not offer a fifth gen stealth fighter program. They are not like JF-17. Their development cost are much higher and i doubt CAC are willing to foot half the bill for such specialize private project.


There is no imminent demand from PAF currently on fifth gen either, that is at least 5-10 years away.

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## akramishaqkhan

untitled said:


> Probably also means Pakistan has now confidence in Chinese ejection seats


Which they never did before. They have alway gone Martin Baker.

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## siegecrossbow

The next batch of J-10C will be produced in Guizhou. Chengdu will exclusively focus on J-20 going forward.

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## Ali_Baba

untitled said:


> Probably also means Pakistan has now confidence in Chinese ejection seats



it is about creating an interoperable J10C force that can interchange with PLAAF J10Cs more easily - for things like war time attrition replacements - so the J10Cs ecosystem has to be closer to the PLAAF configuration to be able to do that. That goes right down to ground crew training for the J10C ...

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## ARMalik

*Unconfirmed (aka Speculation)* - someone has told me that there is Probability of *heavily fitted, modified EW fighter J-16D *to work in conjunction with J-10C and other assets. Not sure if true but would be very interesting if it happens.

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## TsAr

Meliodas said:


> PTV had a target of making it's national broadcast completly digital by providing HDTV boxes n/w by Jan 26/27, but as far as I know not a single piece has moved because of low funds and unreasonable deadlines. Once it's done I hope all will be able to enjoy hd PTV and it's parade / tournament coverages.


PTV news is already digitized and now PTV sports is also, this year PSL will be telecast in HD.

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## HAIDER

Deino said:


> No, exactly the opposite! You can surely follow this guy, but beware of "often *unreliable* info..."
> 
> And exactly here it is irrelevant since the PAF surely won't get a TVC-variant, period!


PAF doesn't need TVC variant... no role in combat mission ..

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## Deino

HAIDER said:


> PAF doesn't need TVC variant... no role in combat mission ..




Agreed, but the point is, all this discussion and high hopes by some are irrelevant since there is no TCV-J-10C.



ARMalik said:


> *Unconfirmed (aka Speculation)* - someone has told me that there is Probability of *heavily fitted, modified EW fighter J-16D *to work in conjunction with J-10C and other assets. Not sure if true but would be very interesting if it happens.




You know me, and I would be sick if I won't ask: Care to explain at least from what corner this rumour comes from?

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## PurpleButcher

ARMalik said:


> *Unconfirmed (aka Speculation)* - someone has told me that there is Probability of *heavily fitted, modified EW fighter J-16D *to work in conjunction with J-10C and other assets. Not sure if true but would be very interesting if it happens.


I wish it would come true but unlikely btw is this from the same forum where in 2028 Pakistan would be getting Chinese aircraft carrier?


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## V. Makarov

My Uber driver just said that the new J10Cs will be using Pratt and Whitney F135 engine. I think his brother works in Kamrah or something. Thank God we got rid of inferior Chinese and Russian engines.




Sarcasm intended.

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## arjunk

@Mods lock this thread till 22nd March 11:59PM

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## Meliodas

TsAr said:


> PTV news is already digitized and now PTV sports is also, this year PSL will be telecast in HD.


Problem is if the audience ( cable operators) doesn't have the converter it's of no use, so PTV is trying to convert that.


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## TsAr

Meliodas said:


> Problem is if the audience ( cable operators) doesn't have the converter it's of no use, so PTV is trying to convert that.


that should be the issue of the audience. For the time being if 23rd March is covered in HD then we can also view it on youtube.

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## ARMalik

Deino said:


> You know me, and I would be sick if I won't ask: Care to explain at least from what corner this rumour comes from?



Hey Deino, just some Gupshup with an X-serviceman in Pakistan. As the name suggests "Gupshup" meaning chitchat, gossip, etc. So not taking this serious.

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## Muhammad Omar

TsAr said:


> PTV news is already digitized and now PTV sports is also, this year PSL will be telecast in HD.


Masla yeh nahi k PTV HD hoga ya nahi masla yeh hai k PTV k cameraman tharki hain aunties or bachion pe zayada focus hota hai unka 😂😂😂

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## Ghessan

Muhammad Omar said:


> Masla yeh nahi k PTV HD hoga ya nahi masla yeh hai k PTV k cameraman tharki hain aunties or bachion pe zayada focus hota hai unka 😂😂😂



all the day every day those camera men cover buudhi, theeri, maiyaan on PTV. when they get luck to go out only then they have chance to have some fun.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

I just hope and pray SR is proven correct this time. Nevertheless a few more teasers.

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## The Eagle

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> SK



?? Who is SK


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

The Eagle said:


> ?? Who is SK


Oops my mistake its SR, just corrected it.

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## Trango Towers

HAIDER said:


> PAF doesn't need TVC variant... no role in combat mission ..


R u kidding me...thrust vectoring is a huge boost to avoid a missile up your tail...



NA71 said:


> approximately US$4000 /Kg.


A bit more than q bunch of bananas

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## HAIDER

Trango Towers said:


> R u kidding me...thrust vectoring is a huge boost to avoid a missile up your tail...
> 
> 
> A bit more than q bunch of bananas


Do you mean reducing the speed of planes to the lowest point in a war zone which is full of BVR... lol.... it is useless in a warzone.

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## Trango Towers

HAIDER said:


> Do you mean reducing the speed of planes to the lowest point in a war zone which is full of BVR... lol.... it is useless in a warzone.


Sure...I mean what would the designers of the f22 know compared to you. In a war zone full of threats why would you want greater maneuverability

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## HAIDER

Trango Towers said:


> Sure...I mean what would the designers of the f22 know compared to you. In a war zone full of threats why would you want greater maneuverability


Explained in detail,
.Why are US jet superiority fighters like the F-15 or F-16 not equipped with canards or thrust vectoring to make them more agile & maneuverable?
The role of the thrust vectoring control (TVC) is mostly misunderstood as I can judge by the ppl.
The absolute flight performance is not increased by the TVC. For turning capability, you need lift force. A lot. If a plane is in a 4G turn the lift force on the airframe is 4 times is the weight of the plane. The thrust of the plane provides the power to keep the speed in turn.
Let’s just assume a Su-30 with 25 tons weight at M0.5. This is ASF (air superiority) configuration. It’s engine produces at M0.5 at 3 km alt about 80 kN thrust based on AL-31 data. Two engines produce 160 kN.
Assuming 30 degrees vectoring the lift increase for thrust is only 80 kN (using trigonometry) while even in 1G level flight weight of the plane is 245kN in a 4G turn it is almost 1000 kN. For this meaningless lift increase (+8%) the Su-30 sacrificed the forward thrust component which is reduced from 160 kN to 138.5 kN. (-14%)
It is simply not worth it. And I assumed only 4G turn which cannot be considered high not even at medium altitude at M0.9.




The TVC has speed limitation. This is for Su-30s.




The TVC is useful at slow speed and high AoA cases and it also helps to initiate and stop turns quicker.
The control surfaces provide the 3 axis control which keeps the plane is a certain AoA position. The TVC extends the capabilities of the control beyond (lower) stall speed. It does nothing else. You can produce forces to control the plane in 3 axis where the conventional way has very little or no effect.




This is a very impressive stunt and it is an amazing engineering feat but in combat, it has 0 usefulness this maneuvers.
Sukhoi Su-35 at Airshow Moscow
But in many vs many air combat flying slow is a very, very bad idea. And the real life is not 1v1. The “super maneuverability” is just a marketing term (BS) nothing else…
Canards is the same case. You can achieve good performance without this. It is just a possible “tool” from the many solutions. The Su-30 have two evolution branches. Only one has canards. The Su-35 also does not have it.

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## siegecrossbow

Why the heck are we debating TVC when the J-10C doesn't have them?

I feel that people here are falling into a "if India has them we need them too" trap. Su-30MKI has canards, we want J-15s. MKIs have TVC, we want TVCs on J-10.

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## Trango Towers

HAIDER said:


> Explained in detail,
> .Why are US jet superiority fighters like the F-15 or F-16 not equipped with canards or thrust vectoring to make them more agile & maneuverable?
> The role of the thrust vectoring control (TVC) is mostly misunderstood as I can judge by the ppl.
> The absolute flight performance is not increased by the TVC. For turning capability, you need lift force. A lot. If a plane is in a 4G turn the lift force on the airframe is 4 times is the weight of the plane. The thrust of the plane provides the power to keep the speed in turn.
> Let’s just assume a Su-30 with 25 tons weight at M0.5. This is ASF (air superiority) configuration. It’s engine produces at M0.5 at 3 km alt about 80 kN thrust based on AL-31 data. Two engines produce 160 kN.
> Assuming 30 degrees vectoring the lift increase for thrust is only 80 kN (using trigonometry) while even in 1G level flight weight of the plane is 245kN in a 4G turn it is almost 1000 kN. For this meaningless lift increase (+8%) the Su-30 sacrificed the forward thrust component which is reduced from 160 kN to 138.5 kN. (-14%)
> It is simply not worth it. And I assumed only 4G turn which cannot be considered high not even at medium altitude at M0.9.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The TVC has speed limitation. This is for Su-30s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The TVC is useful at slow speed and high AoA cases and it also helps to initiate and stop turns quicker.
> The control surfaces provide the 3 axis control which keeps the plane is a certain AoA position. The TVC extends the capabilities of the control beyond (lower) stall speed. It does nothing else. You can produce forces to control the plane in 3 axis where the conventional way has very little or no effect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very impressive stunt and it is an amazing engineering feat but in combat, it has 0 usefulness this maneuvers.
> Sukhoi Su-35 at Airshow Moscow
> But in many vs many air combat flying slow is a very, very bad idea. And the real life is not 1v1. The “super maneuverability” is just a marketing term (BS) nothing else…
> Canards is the same case. You can achieve good performance without this. It is just a possible “tool” from the many solutions. The Su-30 have two evolution branches. Only one has canards. The Su-35 also does not have it.


I have no issues with what you have written but not all combat is at high speed and plus mach 1. 
Again what have they put tVC on a f22? Clearly then the designer is wrong


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## GriffinsRule

Trango Towers said:


> I have no issues with what you have written but not all combat is at high speed and plus mach 1.
> Again what have they put tVC on a f22? Clearly then the designer is wrong


Going with your original premise, does the F-22 has thrust vectoring to avoid a missile or for something completely different?

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## Trango Towers

GriffinsRule said:


> Going with your original premise, does the F-22 has thrust vectoring to avoid a missile or for something completely different?


What would be different to maneuverability?


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## HAIDER

Trango Towers said:


> I have no issues with what you have written but not all combat is at high speed and plus mach 1.
> Again what have they put tVC on a f22? Clearly then the designer is wrong


You are touching a totally different debate, F22 program has been abandoned a long time ago. It was an extremely expensive program after producing 100 or 122 , they stopped the production. All plane info is not on the net, we have some basic info. It is hard to discuss this plane specs. But some stealth info is available . 
The F-22’s exhaust is designed to reduce rear Radar as well as IR signature’s. Thats why they changed it to a rectangle to give it more area and profile for the heat to dissipate. The engines rear is covered by fuselage projections into the rear to reduce signature from an angle in the rear side. The thrust will hit its own body if it moves to sides. The vertical a.k.a pitch direction was the only axis left to move. For the lateral direction, the pilots are trained to roll the aircraft first then pull back to achieve the same result. Hope you understand, its design 








Check the engine design , if you see the difference ... this engine is built for extreme menveoribility at high speed. 





And look at this one , the most famous and use in all Russian and Chinese frontline.

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## spectregunship

From today's FM's visit to AHQ... I think this is the first time J10 model has been shown by the ACM's side... there is also mention of PAF Modernisation Program in the official text...

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## TNT

Trango Towers said:


> I have no issues with what you have written but not all combat is at high speed and plus mach 1.
> Again what have they put tVC on a f22? Clearly then the designer is wrong



The TVC on F22 is incorporated into the flight control system and the use of TVC reduces the use of control surfaces on the F22 and hence keeps the RCS low. Other than this and low speed maneuverability, TVCs are useless, infact counter productive as it has increased weight and reduces MTBO.

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## Trango Towers

HAIDER said:


> You are touching a totally different debate, F22 program has been abandoned a long time ago. It was an extremely expensive program after producing 100 or 122 , they stopped the production. All plane info is not on the net, we have some basic info. It is hard to discuss this plane specs. But some stealth info is available .
> The F-22’s exhaust is designed to reduce rear Radar as well as IR signature’s. Thats why they changed it to a rectangle to give it more area and profile for the heat to dissipate. The engines rear is covered by fuselage projections into the rear to reduce signature from an angle in the rear side. The thrust will hit its own body if it moves to sides. The vertical a.k.a pitch direction was the only axis left to move. For the lateral direction, the pilots are trained to roll the aircraft first then pull back to achieve the same result. Hope you understand, its design
> 
> 
> View attachment 811504
> 
> 
> Check the engine design , if you see the difference ... this engine is built for extreme menveoribility at high speed.
> View attachment 811505
> 
> 
> And look at this one , the most famous and use in all Russian and Chinese frontline.
> 
> View attachment 811506


Bro become a politicians...

I ask you your name you reply I came here in a uber and the story continues


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## Invictus01

HAIDER said:


> You are touching a totally different debate, F22 program has been abandoned a long time ago. It was an extremely expensive program after producing 100 or 122 , they stopped the production. All plane info is not on the net, we have some basic info. It is hard to discuss this plane specs. But some stealth info is available .
> The F-22’s exhaust is designed to reduce rear Radar as well as IR signature’s. Thats why they changed it to a rectangle to give it more area and profile for the heat to dissipate. The engines rear is covered by fuselage projections into the rear to reduce signature from an angle in the rear side. The thrust will hit its own body if it moves to sides. The vertical a.k.a pitch direction was the only axis left to move. For the lateral direction, the pilots are trained to roll the aircraft first then pull back to achieve the same result. Hope you understand, its design
> 
> 
> View attachment 811504
> 
> 
> Check the engine design , if you see the difference ... this engine is built for extreme menveoribility at high speed.
> View attachment 811505
> 
> 
> And look at this one , the most famous and use in all Russian and Chinese frontline.
> 
> View attachment 811506



No need to reply to him 
He doesn't know the basic concept of BVR engagements
Neither does he have any idea how modern missles work

He thinks performing ninja moves in the air would help throw off a missile xD
That's like holding a gun to someone's head and asking him to duck when the trigger is pulled hoping for the bullet to somehow miss the brains

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## MastanKhan

vi-va said:


> Anyone knew the cost?
> 
> *At €7.8B, Why Indian Rafale Jets Are ‘Double The Cost’ Than Egyptian Rafales?*
> *Rafale deal controversy*



Hi,

The cost or the price of the deal is meaningless.

What 99.9999% of the public would never learn about the expenses / fundings of the " BLACK PROJECTS" hidden in the overall cost of major weapons purchase deals---.

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## The Eagle

Trango Towers said:


> R u kidding me...thrust vectoring is a huge boost to avoid a missile up your tail...



Let us calculate the speed of incoming missile, air craft speed, angel, NEZ of hostile BVR, the angle needed to avoid that, any risk of stall after applying TVC, how much it will have the power to avoid the stall and so to push the bird to negate incoming BVR?

By your post I see that all the aircrafts without TVC in the world are now obsolete and redundant/sitting ducks since they don't have TVC against BVR. 

In my humble opinion & limited knowledge; we have totally misunderstood/misreading the need of TVC, its operational benefits, pros & cons and above all the intended purpose.



spectregunship said:


> From today's FM's visit to AHQ... I think this is the first time J10 model has been shown by the ACM's side... there is also mention of PAF Modernisation Program in the official text...
> View attachment 811518



Not the first time though.


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## Trango Towers

The Eagle said:


> Let us calculate the speed of incoming missile, air craft speed, angel, NEZ of hostile BVR, the angle needed to avoid that, any risk of stall after applying TVC, how much it will have the power to avoid the stall and so to push the bird to negate incoming BVR?
> 
> By your post I see that all the aircrafts without TVC in the world are now obsolete and redundant/sitting ducks since they don't have TVC against BVR.
> 
> In my humble opinion & limited knowledge; we have totally misunderstood/misreading the need of TVC, its operational benefits, pros & cons and above all the intended purpose.


Hi.

No aircraft without TVC are not obsolete but scenarios that you present such as stall don't always happen. My point is that it's been stated that TVC is not necessary and I am saying that it has its benefits. 
Additionally, the fact that f22 has TVC no one will address why? Why do the designers thing it necessary to have TVC


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

spectregunship said:


> From today's FM's visit to AHQ... I think this is the first time J10 model has been shown by the ACM's side... there is also mention of PAF Modernisation Program in the official text...
> View attachment 811518


This is my favourite image of j10c, hopefully soon in our colours.

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## The Eagle

Trango Towers said:


> Hi.
> 
> No aircraft without TVC are not obsolete but scenarios that you present such as stall don't always happen. My point is that it's been stated that TVC is not necessary and I am saying that it has its benefits.
> Additionally, the fact that f22 has TVC no one will address why? Why do the designers thing it necessary to have TVC



To start with knowledge and learning; let's see why TVC only on F-22? When & why on SU series? But why not necessary on Rafale, EFT and J-10C? If you want to learn then it is up-to you to dig for it, read, ask, have patience and no pre-mindset like I am right and I wouldn't accept anything.

F-22 in times of that decade. SUs in times of that decade. But TVC is not a requirement anymore--- at-least for 4th Gen Aircrafts. It will work fine with 5th & 6th since the bird is already off the Radar and can play such maneuvers without the risk of getting hit right at time when dealing the energy bleeding due to TVC. Check-out what Americans have to say about IAF applying TVC in red flag? It is not useful always. It has benefits but it comes with cost. That cost of energy, stall, slowing down in low speed etc have more damage/loss expectancy for 4th Gen as compare to 5th Gen aircrafts. Just look at the dealing with it---- 5th gen is not even on Radar that easily let alone having the risk of stall or slowing down while evading. Even if it is locked; the 5th Gen given the tech, design & EW can however maintain a window to scape easily.

TVC on F-22 or SUs was the requirement of that design and not everyone will release study data to make you read and so the adversary to exploit the same. F-22 role & pitch and then it's airframe and the force on its body while maneuvering sideways; that might let you understand. I think you know well about Aerospace design etc...Don't you?

J-10C a delta canard design and the existing design pretty much addresses the need of Aircraft defence & offensive maneuvering. I see that having an extra weight of TVC along with cost to maintain and that negative of recovery post TVC applied; pretty much adds to the point that such an aircraft doesn't need it since the pilot will already utilize its existing capability to build tactics & use it more freely. Not every BVR needs a TVC to evade.

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## Trango Towers

The Eagle said:


> To start with knowledge and learning; let's see why TVC only on F-22? When & why on SU series? But why not necessary on Rafale, EFT and J-10C? If you want to learn then it is up-to you to dig for it, read, ask, have patience and no pre-mindset like I am right and I wouldn't accept anything.
> 
> F-22 in times of that decade. SUs in times of that decade. But TVC is not a requirement anymore--- at-least for 4th Gen Aircrafts. It will work fine with 5th & 6th since the bird is already off the Radar and can play such maneuvers without the risk of getting hit right at time when dealing the energy bleeding due to TVC. Check-out what Americans have to say about IAF applying TVC in red flag? It is not useful always. It has benefits but it comes with cost. That cost of energy, stall, slowing down in low speed etc have more damage/loss expectancy for 4th Gen as compare to 5th Gen aircrafts. Just look at the dealing with it---- 5th gen is not even on Radar that easily let alone having the risk of stall or slowing down while evading. Even if it is locked; the 5th Gen given the tech, design & EW can however maintain a window to scape easily.
> 
> TVC on F-22 or SUs was the requirement of that design and not everyone will release study data to make you read and so the adversary to exploit the same. F-22 role & pitch and then it's airframe and the force on its body while maneuvering sideways; that might let you understand. I think you know well about Aerospace design etc...Don't you?
> 
> J-10C a delta canard design and the existing design pretty much addresses the need of Aircraft defence & offensive maneuvering. I see that having an extra weight of TVC along with cost to maintain and that negative of recovery post TVC applied; pretty much adds to the point that such an aircraft doesn't need it since the pilot will already utilize its existing capability to build tactics & use it more freely. Not every BVR needs a TVC to evade.




To start with knowledge and learning; let's see why TVC only on F-22? When & why on SU series? But why not necessary on Rafale, EFT and J-10C? If you want to learn then it is up-to you to dig for it, read, ask, have patience and no pre-mindset like I am right and I wouldn't accept anything.

Why would you write that??

I was talking specific to someone and you joined the conversation. 
This si teaching someone to suck eggs. And there was no argument. The guy was saying TVC is not valid and only applicable at low speeds...so I simply asked why did the designers of f22 apply it to this air superiority fighter..

Now you are off on something quite different. 

Anyways ...as I can see your mind is made up.

Apparently there is an argument that I am trying to win..I didn't even know I was in an argument.

And only way to learn is through research...ofcourse no one knows that!.

Have a nice day.


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## The Eagle

I tried to add bit of options to be considered while asking questions. Lets invite @SQ8 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD



Trango Towers said:


> you joined the conversation.



My bad and I will keep that in mind in future.

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## Trango Towers

The Eagle said:


> I tried to add bit of options to be considered while asking questions. Lets invite @SQ8 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD
> 
> 
> 
> My bad and I will keep that in mind in future.


Just misunderstanding. No big deal bro.

It wasn't an argument. Inshallah I will try to do better

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## serenity

Simply cost. Putting TVC on J-10 will make it more expensive and harder to keep in operational readiness when the whole point of inexpensive single engine J-10 in PLAAF's structure is to use as lower tier fighter for most tasks and supporting fighter for even heavy threat tasks.

TVC itself is much heavier and sacrifices some thrust. Therefore is it worth it? That will only balance out extra agility and option for certain movements. So basically nothing gained in balance and only extra cost and maintenance nightmares. Even that for a TVC J-10 to PLAAF is not worth it and considered a demonstrator for study only.

They rumored about J-10D either with improved WS-10 engine or some WS-10 TVC engine or even some suggest WS-15 engine or stealthified J-10D. I do not think any of that is smart. Why develop a whole new J-10D that is stealthified. To commit all that money and engineering power and still carry weapons either outside or in stealth pods. When you can put that money into Dark Sword UCAV and twin seater J-20 combined.

As for WS-15 engine on J-10, as we now think, WS-15 may be TVC. Of course that also means you can easily make a non TVC WS-15 version and it'll be easier, more reliable, cheaper, and lighter with even more thrust. However initial production of an engine is not going to be enough for J-20s and J-10s. Depending on the cost of the WS-15, it'll maybe not even be worth the extra performance for J-10.

Any J-10 development will likely just be electronics and software upgrades. Maybe specific new tasks that require a totally new piece of equipment for example being part of observer network for directing sensor and shooter chains that J-10 currently is not a part of but PLAAF wants it to be for future weapons. Something like that. WS-15 upgrade to J-10 may not even be worth it if it is able to be integrated. Any better WS-10 of course would be used and it'll still be J-10C.

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## MH.Yang

serenity said:


> Simply cost. Putting TVC on J-10 will make it more expensive and harder to keep in operational readiness when the whole point of inexpensive single engine J-10 in PLAAF's structure is to use as lower tier fighter for most tasks and supporting fighter for even heavy threat tasks.
> 
> TVC itself is much heavier and sacrifices some thrust. Therefore is it worth it? That will only balance out extra agility and option for certain movements. So basically nothing gained in balance and only extra cost and maintenance nightmares. Even that for a TVC J-10 to PLAAF is not worth it and considered a demonstrator for study only.
> 
> They rumored about J-10D either with improved WS-10 engine or some WS-10 TVC engine or even some suggest WS-15 engine or stealthified J-10D. I do not think any of that is smart. Why develop a whole new J-10D that is stealthified. To commit all that money and engineering power and still carry weapons either outside or in stealth pods. When you can put that money into Dark Sword UCAV and twin seater J-20 combined.
> 
> As for WS-15 engine on J-10, as we now think, WS-15 may be TVC. Of course that also means you can easily make a non TVC WS-15 version and it'll be easier, more reliable, cheaper, and lighter with even more thrust. However initial production of an engine is not going to be enough for J-20s and J-10s. Depending on the cost of the WS-15, it'll maybe not even be worth the extra performance for J-10.
> 
> Any J-10 development will likely just be electronics and software upgrades. Maybe specific new tasks that require a totally new piece of equipment for example being part of observer network for directing sensor and shooter chains that J-10 currently is not a part of but PLAAF wants it to be for future weapons. Something like that. WS-15 upgrade to J-10 may not even be worth it if it is able to be integrated. Any better WS-10 of course would be used and it'll still be J-10C.


I don't think it is necessary for J10D to use TVC. On the basis of not changing the aerodynamic shape of J10C, we can upgrade avionics, strengthen electronic countermeasure system and enhance battlefield situation awareness and data processing capability. The body surface is coated with absorbing paint, and active stealth and beam cancellation technologies are adopted to improve its stealth performance. The flexibility and multi-purpose performance are further improved by using EWP hanging cabin, semi buried hanger and other measures. That's enough. And I don't think the WS-15 will be in service so soon.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

spectregunship said:


> From today's FM's visit to AHQ... I think this is the first time J10 model has been shown by the ACM's side... there is also mention of PAF Modernisation Program in the official text...
> View attachment 811518


Qureishi: "How many JS-10s are we getting?"
ACM: "....69."
Qureishi: "Nice!" 

@JamD

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## baqai

TopGun786 said:


> 69? Really?



with those two gentlemen in picture ... lets just call BINGO and RTB!


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## Nomad40

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Qureishi: "How many JS-10s are we getting?"
> ACM: "....69."
> Qureishi: "Nice!"
> 
> @JamD


Emphasis on the 69, how ever what will be of immense interest and true force multiplier would be what has been chosen or given for the J-10 to deploy.


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## siegecrossbow

TopGun786 said:


> 69? Really?





TopGun786 said:


> 69? Really?

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## Salza

Exactly one month to this thread. Still tight lips. Feb end looks promising for actual deliveries.


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## Big_bud

HAIDER said:


> Explained in detail,
> .Why are US jet superiority fighters like the F-15 or F-16 not equipped with canards or thrust vectoring to make them more agile & maneuverable?
> The role of the thrust vectoring control (TVC) is mostly misunderstood as I can judge by the ppl.
> The absolute flight performance is not increased by the TVC. For turning capability, you need lift force. A lot. If a plane is in a 4G turn the lift force on the airframe is 4 times is the weight of the plane. The thrust of the plane provides the power to keep the speed in turn.
> Let’s just assume a Su-30 with 25 tons weight at M0.5. This is ASF (air superiority) configuration. It’s engine produces at M0.5 at 3 km alt about 80 kN thrust based on AL-31 data. Two engines produce 160 kN.
> Assuming 30 degrees vectoring the lift increase for thrust is only 80 kN (using trigonometry) while even in 1G level flight weight of the plane is 245kN in a 4G turn it is almost 1000 kN. For this meaningless lift increase (+8%) the Su-30 sacrificed the forward thrust component which is reduced from 160 kN to 138.5 kN. (-14%)
> It is simply not worth it. And I assumed only 4G turn which cannot be considered high not even at medium altitude at M0.9.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The TVC has speed limitation. This is for Su-30s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The TVC is useful at slow speed and high AoA cases and it also helps to initiate and stop turns quicker.
> The control surfaces provide the 3 axis control which keeps the plane is a certain AoA position. The TVC extends the capabilities of the control beyond (lower) stall speed. It does nothing else. You can produce forces to control the plane in 3 axis where the conventional way has very little or no effect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very impressive stunt and it is an amazing engineering feat but in combat, it has 0 usefulness this maneuvers.
> Sukhoi Su-35 at Airshow Moscow
> But in many vs many air combat flying slow is a very, very bad idea. And the real life is not 1v1. The “super maneuverability” is just a marketing term (BS) nothing else…
> Canards is the same case. You can achieve good performance without this. It is just a possible “tool” from the many solutions. The Su-30 have two evolution branches. Only one has canards. The Su-35 also does not have it.



In WVR fights TVC helps in increasing turn rate of the aircraft. In a one circle or rate fight, an SU30 MKI or SU35 or J10c would be able to point the nose, lock the target and release the missile much quicker than the aircraft without TVC. A good western aircraft would almost match the TVC aircraft from Russia/China in one circle. But "almost" makes all the difference. You might be able to see the enemy aircraft but if it is outside your radar's lock range, you can't lock and release the missile. A couple of degree difference in where the nose is pointing can change everything. TVC is an added advantage but an western designers think they'd rather focus on other features than developing TVC variants. There are many situations in a WVR fight where TVC can help in pointing the nose better may it be at expense of speed. But yes in BVR it won't be of much help.

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## redtom

In 2018, J10B TVC only revealed China's ability to manufacture TVC engines. It's easy to assume that PLAF must have made some TVC J10s for evaluation and air combat games. But until now, no TVC version of J10 or J11 has appeared.

I suspect that the benefits of TVC don't count for much as the technology evolves. Engine power is more valuable for powering more electronics than TVC.It's also clear that countries are trying to put more electronic devices on planes.


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## aliyusuf

Big_bud said:


> In WVR fights TVC helps in increasing turn rate of the aircraft. In a one circle or rate fight, an SU30 MKI or SU35 or J10c would be able to point the nose, lock the target and release the missile much quicker than the aircraft without TVC.


HOBS missile slaved with HMS greatly diminishes the need to do what you have mentioned above. Merely turning his head, the pilot wearing the HMS and cueing off a shot towards the target renders aligning the fighter's nose towards the target redundant and much less effort and skill to do so.

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## Deino

Can we please stop with this irrelevant TVC- related discussions? It is at best an academic excurse, since there is no PLAAF J-10C with TVC and therefore also unlikely for Pakistan to get such a version.

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## TopGun786

Deino said:


> Can we please stop with this irrelevant TVC- related discussions? It is at best an academic excurse, since there is no PLAAF J-10C with TVC and therefore also unlikely for Pakistan to get such a version.


Yes, so much time wasted on a discussion that does not even have solid foundations.

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## cssniper

The pilots' opinions on TVC engine matter much more than ours.
If they think TVC is necessary,then the airforce will get it.
Since there is capablility for J10B/C to use TVC engine, it is PAF's call to decide whether to have it or not.
Have to say that many arms Pakistan purchased have differences from the original design.
The suitable one is the best one.🤔

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## Falcon26

spectregunship said:


> From today's FM's visit to AHQ... I think this is the first time J10 model has been shown by the ACM's side... there is also mention of PAF Modernisation Program in the official text...
> View attachment 811518



not the first time, it’s been there for the past few months.

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## Deino

cssniper said:


> The pilots' opinions on TVC engine matter much more than ours.
> If they think TVC is necessary,then the airforce will get it.
> Since there is capablility for J10B/C to use TVC engine, it is PAF's call to decide whether to have it or not.
> Have to say that many arms Pakistan purchased have differences from the original design.
> The suitable one is the best one.🤔




Yes for sure … but if the PAF wants this capability then Pakistan has to pay for its development and that’s the point: not the PLAAF, but CAC tested a single J-10B and most likely it was only a demonstrator for the WS-15‘s nozzle and not to develop or explore this capability for the PLAAF. As such, it is as we say in Germany, it is a useless discussion about „noch ungelegte Eier“!

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## Titanium100

Trango Towers said:


> Sure...I mean what would the designers of the f22 know compared to you. In a war zone full of threats why would you want greater maneuverability


I am surprise you didn't bring randomly lashing out in this whole thread


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## Scorpiooo

First of all is it confirmed that we will have 23march prade this year by looking again on covid situation


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## Titanium100

Scorpiooo said:


> First of all is it confirmed that we will have 23march prade this year by looking again on covid situation


The purchase is confirmed if that is what you wanna know


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## Scorpiooo

Titanium100 said:


> The purchase is confirmed if that is what you wanna know


That is for sure now .. just saying sheikh jee sheekhiee statement


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## Trango Towers

Titanium100 said:


> I am surprise you didn't bring randomly lashing out in this whole thread


Try to write a sentence that makes sense before posting. 
Bring what...samosa? 
Why not use the ignore button if I annoy you so much....but I think secretly you like it.

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## GumNaam

aliyusuf said:


> HOBS missile slaved with HMS greatly diminishes the need to do what you have mentioned above. Merely turning his head, the pilot wearing the HMS and cueing off a shot towards the target renders aligning the fighter's nose towards the target redundant and much less effort and skill to do so.


Honestly, I wanna say that TVC can be very useful in defensive maneuvers against approaching AAMs but then again, the doomed indian su30 (that had tvc) has proven me wrong.

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## Irfan Baloch

Deino said:


> Can we please stop with this irrelevant TVC- related discussions? It is at best an academic excurse, since there is no PLAAF J-10C with TVC and therefore also unlikely for Pakistan to get such a version.


AFTER 134 pages, all useful and meaningful discussion points are already exhausted so what you are left with is all pet talk. see the evidence below despite your request. the TVC remains the focal point driving the discussion. 
add conformal fuel tanks and twin engines for good measure and this thread will go past 500 pages.
power of wishful imagination has no limits to our internet aviation engineers.

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## CodeforFood

The Eagle said:


> Let us calculate the speed of incoming missile, air craft speed, angel, NEZ of hostile BVR, the angle needed to avoid that, any risk of stall after applying TVC, how much it will have the power to avoid the stall and so to push the bird to negate incoming BVR?
> 
> By your post I see that all the aircrafts without TVC in the world are now obsolete and redundant/sitting ducks since they don't have TVC against BVR.
> 
> In my humble opinion & limited knowledge; we have totally misunderstood/misreading the need of TVC, its operational benefits, pros & cons and above all the intended purpose.
> 
> 
> 
> Not the first time though.


Not that I know much and neither I am advocating for TVC . However, I think TVC is not just to show Cobra (or stalling in any other scenario) maneuvers. You could vector while moving at good speed to cut down angles or increase them specially being tailed or tailing , especially one on one and within visual range. My two cents.
I don't believe we are getting it. I also don't think that it would/should be prioritized in our specs.


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## ahtan_china

akramishaqkhan said:


> Which they never did before. They have alway gone Martin Baker.


one more


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## kursed

ahtan_china said:


> one more
> View attachment 812087


What does this signify?


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## ahtan_china

kursed said:


> What does this signify?


One more Factory will produce J-10

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## Bilal.

kursed said:


> What does this signify?


Purportedly Guizhou will start producing J10. Some say production will shift from Chengdu (while they will focus solely on J20) and others say it will augment them.

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## Salza

kursed said:


> What does this signify?


any update regarding J10Cs ? what can we expect in Feb ?


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## kursed

Salza said:


> any update regarding J10Cs ? what can we expect in Feb ?


Sir, I am waiting on the details just like you. Can't wait to see the birds. =)

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## Salza

anyone with 'little,tiny' more information  

@PanzerKiel you plz=

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## PanzerKiel

Salza said:


> anyone with 'little,tiny' more information
> 
> @PanzerKiel you plz=


I managed a peek into the cockpit, sat in it for a while, checked all hardpoints, even thrust my hand into the forward air intake out of curiosity. Thats all dear. Not much info with me at the moment. And please do not ask for more. Wont be able to answer. And btw, it was in PAF colors. They just didnt let me fly it.

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## Salza

PanzerKiel said:


> And btw, it was in PAF colors.


thanks

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## aliyusuf

PanzerKiel said:


> I managed a peek into the cockpit, sat in it for a while, checked all hardpoints, even thrust my hand into the forward air intake out of curiosity. Thats all dear. Not much info with me at the moment. And please do not ask for more. Wont be able to answer. And btw, it was in PAF colors.


Any idea about the engine? Is it WS-10 Series or AL-31FN Series?


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## Vapnope

PanzerKiel said:


> I managed a peek into the cockpit, sat in it for a while, checked all hardpoints, even thrust my hand into the forward air intake out of curiosity. Thats all dear. Not much info with me at the moment. And please do not ask for more. Wont be able to answer. And btw, it was in PAF colors. They just didnt let me fly it.


Should have done a wheelie like a pindi boy 😂

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## GiantPanda

Bilal. said:


> Purportedly Guizhou will start producing J10. Some say production will shift from Chengdu (while they will focus solely on J20) and others say it will augment them.



Yes, it will augment J-10 lines in CAC in the beginning and then CAC will transition to more J-20s.

People forget that SAC transitioned the J-7 to CAC in the 1970s to build the J-8 and then J-11.

Also CAC had earlier transitioned Jj/FT-7 (two-seater) versions to Guizhou (GAC.) GAC is still producing J-7 descendents (JL-9,FTC-2000) while CAC had transitioned completely away from J-7 to J-10 and then J-20.

So this is part of normal process in China as new models replaces old.

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## Jinn Baba

PanzerKiel said:


> I managed a peek into the cockpit, sat in it for a while, checked all hardpoints, even thrust my hand into the forward air intake out of curiosity. Thats all dear. Not much info with me at the moment. And please do not ask for more. Wont be able to answer. And btw, it was in PAF colors. They just didnt let me fly it.



If you could - what colors? F16 type scheme, or JF17 or PLAAF J10 scheme?

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## Windjammer

PanzerKiel said:


> I managed a peek into the cockpit, sat in it for a while, checked all hardpoints, even thrust my hand into the forward air intake out of curiosity. Thats all dear. Not much info with me at the moment. And please do not ask for more. Wont be able to answer. And btw, it was in PAF colors. They just didnt let me fly it.


You missed out this Urdu transcript written on the panel just below the HUD. ....

*''Mout Kay Moun Mein Beth Kar Muskaraney Waley, 
Hafiz Khuda Tumara, Yea Rocket Chalaney Waley.''*

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## SIPRA

Black Bird said:


> PAF should use toyota corrola Engine in J10c, JF 17. Sary masly hal ho jian gy.😁



How about Yamaha 120 engine? 



Windjammer said:


> You missed out this Urdu transcript written on the panel just below the HUD. ....
> 
> *''Mout Kay Moun Mein Beth Kar Muskaraney Waley,
> Hafiz Khuda Tumara, Yea Rocket Chalaney Waley.''*



....... and:

"Toon lung ja
Saadi khaer aye"

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## Deino

ahtan_china said:


> One more Factory will produce J-10




I'm not sure if this is already valid to say ... IMO it is a rumour yet, nothing more.


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## Black Bird

SIPRA said:


> How about Yamaha 120 engine?
> 
> 
> 
> ....... and:
> 
> "Toon lung ja
> Saadi khaer aye"


Sir we are using 70cc engine in riksha successfully. First i was thinking about Mehran but as everyone here is concerned so i prefer Corrola. 😁.
Actually we guys sometimes forget that after all PAF knows more than us. Why they will choose an engine which can't fulfil their requirements. They will face the adversary not we. So i always believe in PAF. We want top notch things but we all knows that our economy can't support that.

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## baqai

PanzerKiel said:


> I managed a peek into the cockpit, sat in it for a while, checked all hardpoints, even thrust my hand into the forward air intake out of curiosity. Thats all dear. Not much info with me at the moment. And please do not ask for more. Wont be able to answer. And btw, it was in PAF colors. They just didnt let me fly it.



i am so jealous of you .... but finally atleast we can kill the doubt on having J-10's in our colors, just a question ... how majestic they look in our colors and is it true that it's with Bandits (Simple yes and no would do)

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## TheTallGuy

baqai said:


> i am so jealous of you .... but finally atleast we can kill the doubt on having J-10's in our colors, just a question ... how majestic they look in our colors and is it true that it's with Bandits (Simple yes and no would do)



i thought they were with Cobras?


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## PanzerKiel

baqai said:


> i am so jealous of you .... but finally atleast we can kill the doubt on having J-10's in our colors, just a question ... how majestic they look in our colors and is it true that it's with Bandits (Simple yes and no would do)


You should have all the reasons to be jealous....my kitty includes alot, to name a few....Mirages, Blk 52s, J-10s, Agosta 90s, host of naval ships including F22, drove VT-4, T-80, AZ, M113s, fired multiple artillery guns (including my favorite, 130 mm M-59), Baktar Shikan ATGM.....

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## Ali_Baba

And did it have a single piece wide MFD display or did have a 3 large MFD setup ( since they changed the HUD to the same as the JF17 Block III - wonder if it has adopted the same new wide MFD display system aswell ).







Or like this ?

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## waz

So does anyone know the service life of the WS-10B has before maintenance/overhaul work?


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## TheTallGuy

waz said:


> So does anyone know the service life of the WS-10B has before maintenance/overhaul work?


Sir, I thought J10s are flying WS10C not the WS10B


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## waz

TheTallGuy said:


> Sir, I thought J10s are flying WS10C not the WS10B



Not sure brother @Deino

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## PanzerKiel

PanzerKiel said:


> You should have all the reasons to be jealous....my kitty includes alot, to name a few....Mirages, Blk 52s, J-10s, Agosta 90s, host of naval ships including F22, drove VT-4, T-80, AZ, M113s, fired multiple artillery guns (including my favorite, 130 mm M-59), Baktar Shikan ATGM.....


I can contribute in great detail in the threads of these products, however I deliberately refrain from doing so, just to make sure I don't give away anything serious.

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## Deino

waz said:


> Not sure brother @Deino




No, at least from what I know the WS-10C is the one with serrated nozzle used by the J-20A only and the J-10C uses similar to the J-16 a WS-10B variant.

@TheTallGuy

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## iLION12345_1

PanzerKiel said:


> You should have all the reasons to be jealous....my kitty includes alot, to name a few....Mirages, Blk 52s, J-10s, Agosta 90s, host of naval ships including F22, drove VT-4, T-80, AZ, M113s, fired multiple artillery guns (including my favorite, 130 mm M-59), Baktar Shikan ATGM.....


But have you driven CG125? That’s the most important one for Pakistanis.

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## waz

Deino said:


> No, at least from what I know the WS-10C is the one with serrated nozzle used by the J-20A only and the J-10C uses similar to the J-16 a WS-10B variant.
> 
> @TheTallGuy



Do you have any figures on overhaul time bro? Was 300 hours?


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## Deino

doorstar said:


> dunno but according to Chinese state media its total life-span in 2018 was (perhaps still is) between 800 to 1,500 flight hours as reported by south china morning post in 2018. https://www.scmp.com/news/china/dip...-chinas-j-15-fighter-jets-it-tries-build-navy




But according to the SCMP and especially the same Minnie Chan the J-15s are using WS-10H engines ... however everyone knows, that up to today NO operational J-15 - including the latest Batch 04 - are usung WS-10 engines!

So in conclusion, her whole report is faked and BS like ALL her reports ... 

Sorry, @waz but I have no official data on TBO, life-span and failure rate ...

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## Black Bird

PanzerKiel said:


> You should have all the reasons to be jealous....my kitty includes alot, to name a few....Mirages, Blk 52s, J-10s, Agosta 90s, host of naval ships including F22, drove VT-4, T-80, AZ, M113s, fired multiple artillery guns (including my favorite, 130 mm M-59), Baktar Shikan ATGM.....


Sir ap ka to world record wali Kapii main naam likha jana chaiy😁.

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## baqai

PanzerKiel said:


> You should have all the reasons to be jealous....my kitty includes alot, to name a few....Mirages, Blk 52s, J-10s, Agosta 90s, host of naval ships including F22, drove VT-4, T-80, AZ, M113s, fired multiple artillery guns (including my favorite, 130 mm M-59), Baktar Shikan ATGM.....



MashaAllah ... may Allah give you more success, Ameen!  

can you answer my questions if they don't violate any security concerns i.e. are the new birds with Bandits? and how majestic they look in our colors!

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## MastanKhan

PanzerKiel said:


> I managed a peek into the cockpit, sat in it for a while, checked all hardpoints, even thrust my hand into the forward air intake out of curiosity. Thats all dear. Not much info with me at the moment. And please do not ask for more. Wont be able to answer. And btw, it was in PAF colors. They just didnt let me fly it.



@PanzerKiel ,

So very intriguing. What is Deino going to say about that---hehehehehehe.

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## PurpleButcher

PanzerKiel said:


> I can contribute in great detail in the threads of these products, however I deliberately refrain from doing so, just to make sure I don't give away anything serious.


Send me the pictures...."Dekh kar delete kar doon ga, promise "

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## Erroroverload

PanzerKiel said:


> I managed a peek into the cockpit, sat in it for a while, checked all hardpoints, even thrust my hand into the forward air intake out of curiosity. Thats all dear. Not much info with me at the moment. And please do not ask for more. Wont be able to answer. And btw, it was in PAF colors. They just didnt let me fly it.


wah g wah. swaad lajwaab

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## TheTallGuy

Deino said:


> No, at least from what I know the WS-10C is the one with serrated nozzle used by the J-20A only and the J-10C uses similar to the J-16 a WS-10B variant.
> 
> @TheTallGuy



Sir, I Thought that WS-10A & WS10B are applied for twin engine aircraft. and WS10C was thoroughly matured to Single engine aircraft operations. which requires certain different configuration and stringent parameters.


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## baqai

aik koi har koi rang mai bhang dal daita hai mai jab bhi masoomana sawalat karta hun

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## Irfan Baloch

PanzerKiel said:


> You should have all the reasons to be jealous....my kitty includes alot, to name a few....Mirages, Blk 52s, J-10s, Agosta 90s, host of naval ships including F22, drove VT-4, T-80, AZ, M113s, fired multiple artillery guns (including my favorite, 130 mm M-59), Baktar Shikan ATGM.....


if all of them don't have TVC and laser then its a waste of time.
I want TVC and ToT on F22 Frigates as well. cant settle for anything less.

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## Shotgunner51

TheTallGuy said:


> Sir, I Thought that WS-10A & WS10B are applied for twin engine aircraft. and WS10C was thoroughly matured to Single engine aircraft operations. which requires certain different configuration and stringent parameters.


Perhaps the C variant sounds like a "progression" from B, that's not the case.

PLAAF has been very careful with the AL-31 replacement program: WS-10 baseline and A variants are used on Flankers only, and wait until its progression aka B variant became reliable enough to be used on both Flankers and J-10's. For these two jet series, B is the matured version. The C for J-20 is more like a stop gap move until WS-15 comes online in the future, it's a B modified to be compatible with J-20.

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## CodeforFood

TheTallGuy said:


> Sir, I thought J10s are flying WS10C not the WS10B


chalo jee hik aur nawi kahani shuru. sure sure remove the comment 



MastanKhan said:


> @PanzerKiel ,
> 
> So very intriguing. What is Deino going to say about that---hehehehehehe





PanzerKiel said:


> I managed a peek into the cockpit, sat in it for a while, checked all hardpoints, even thrust my hand into the forward air intake out of curiosity. Thats all dear. Not much info with me at the moment. And please do not ask for more. Wont be able to answer. And btw, it was in PAF colors. They just didnt let me fly it.


emm checked aaaalll the hardpoints

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## ahtan_china

Deino said:


> I'm not sure if this is already valid to say ... IMO it is a rumour yet, nothing more.


We will see


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## Deino

ahtan_china said:


> We will see




But why this confidence? At least from what I read we have indeed the fact, that GAIC merged with CAC and we have this single placard, but do we have something written or reported by the media concerning the transfer of the J-10's production? IMO it is just a speculation yet.


----------



## Bigbang1983

PanzerKiel said:


> I managed a peek into the cockpit, sat in it for a while, checked all hardpoints, even thrust my hand into the forward air intake out of curiosity. Thats all dear. Not much info with me at the moment. And please do not ask for more. Wont be able to answer. And btw, it was in PAF colors. They just didnt let me fly it.



Good going MashaAllah. Must be a lot of fun. Starters are always tasty when served fresh. Looking forward to your post on the main course. Whenever that comes.

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## Deino

TheTallGuy said:


> Sir, I Thought that WS-10A & WS10B are applied for twin engine aircraft. and WS10C was thoroughly matured to Single engine aircraft operations. which requires certain different configuration and stringent parameters.




Nope ... in fact AFAIK only the B is flying on single engined types.


MastanKhan said:


> @PanzerKiel ,
> 
> So very intriguing. What is Deino going to say about that---hehehehehehe.




You know it already!  I remain sceptical until i have proof, but the point is, in terms of credibility he is playing in a totally different league, in fact the only thing you do is "playing"!

He is one of the few here who really seem to know his stuff, he is rarely posting details but when he posts, he seems to be correct even if only after some time ... when you post, you always start with a rant, most of what you post is either irrelevant blabala, fabricated or plain wrong as long as you can provoke! As such, post whatever you want, it's a free forum but don't expect that anyone with a clue believes in your deliberate troll posts ...

That's the difference.

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## Raja Porus

I wish we could skip to March.... Aussies coming to Pakistan (Insha'Allah)and 23rd March🤞..

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## The Eagle

Windjammer said:


> You missed out this Urdu transcript written on the panel just below the HUD. ....
> 
> *''Mout Kay Moun Mein Beth Kar Muskaraney Waley,
> Hafiz Khuda Tumara, Yea Rocket Chalaney Waley.''*



won the day

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## The Eagle

aliyusuf said:


> Any idea about the engine? Is it WS-10 Series or AL-31FN Series?



On a lighter note; it was dark of the night. Gave a dry thrust run. Sound was huge. Shut it down. Nothing like wet could be checked from inlet. The hand returned without even dust on it. It is not dusty now a days.



Jinn Baba said:


> what colors?



PAF somehow read the random comments on the forum about a certain wish of colour scheme - I believe they have come with rose mist scheme this time as it flies like a silver colour in bright daylight but then under clouds or in the night, adopts the rose shade or purple at some angles.

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## araz

Irfan Baloch said:


> if all of them don't have TVC and laser then its a waste of time.
> I want TVC and ToT on F22 Frigates as well. cant settle for anything less.


And Delta Canards as well. The F22s will be useless without the canards. And what about IFR.???  😂

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## ghazi52



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## NA71

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 812330


Which plane in the background.... 15 or16 of J?

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## Stealth

Ali_Baba said:


> And did it have a single piece wide MFD display or did have a 3 large MFD setup ( since they changed the HUD to the same as the JF17 Block III - wonder if it has adopted the same new wide MFD display system aswell ).
> 
> View attachment 812186
> 
> 
> Or like this ?
> 
> View attachment 812188



If the screen malfunction, everything will be fuckedup in full lol whereas, on the traditional one, the pilot still have options to do something lol

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## Reichmarshal

PanzerKiel said:


> You should have all the reasons to be jealous....my kitty includes alot, to name a few....Mirages, Blk 52s, J-10s, Agosta 90s, host of naval ships including F22, drove VT-4, T-80, AZ, M113s, fired multiple artillery guns (including my favorite, 130 mm M-59), Baktar Shikan ATGM.....


i fired my first M 109 SP at tilla when I was in KG ...............no joke

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## mkg00179504

J10 are coming and they are coming to kamra. Talked to a serving wing commander. Pilot training is complete the conversion was done in china. PAF already started working on its tactics long time ago. PAF is excited for PL 15. That's all I was told.

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## siegecrossbow

NA71 said:


> Which plane in the background.... 15 or16 of J?



J-11BH.

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## Deino

NA71 said:


> Which plane in the background.... 15 or16 of J?




a regular PLAN Naval Aviation J-11BH ... in fact this one:

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## siegecrossbow

Stealth said:


> If the screen malfunction, everything will be fuckedup in full lol whereas, on the traditional one, the pilot still have options to do something lol



Not necessarily. From what I’ve heard the one piece screen on F-35 is still divided to three sub screens. They can light up independently.

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## Skywalker

PanzerKiel said:


> You should have all the reasons to be jealous....my kitty includes alot, to name a few....Mirages, Blk 52s, J-10s, Agosta 90s, host of naval ships including F22, drove VT-4, T-80, AZ, M113s, fired multiple artillery guns (including my favorite, 130 mm M-59), Baktar Shikan ATGM.....


her baar jab aapki aankh khulti tu aap apnay ghar mein he hotay thay bhai ya gul zareen bhai kay yehan.

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## iLION12345_1

Reichmarshal said:


> i fired my first M 109 SP at tilla when I was in KG ...............no joke


Was 11 when I went there for the first time, got to drive and fire quite a few types of tanks and artillery.

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## syed_yusuf

iLION12345_1 said:


> Was 11 when I went there for the first time, got to drive and fire quite a few types of tanks and artillery.


You mean real tanks or RC models ?

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## Falconless

Imagine after all this, nothing shows up on 23rd March.

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## maverick1977

mkg00179504 said:


> J10 are coming and they are coming to kamra. Talked to a serving wing commander. Pilot training is complete the conversion was done in china. PAF already started working on its tactics long time ago. PAF is excited for PL 15. That's all I was told.



Yes should land in next 2 weeks, God willingly!

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## siegecrossbow

mkg00179504 said:


> J10 are coming and they are coming to kamra. Talked to a serving wing commander. *Pilot training *is complete the conversion was done in china. PAF already started working on its tactics long time ago. PAF is excited for PL 15. That's all I was told.



Hope they enjoyed the spicy lamb hotpot during their stay.

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## Iron Shrappenel

Ali_Baba said:


> And did it have a single piece wide MFD display or did have a 3 large MFD setup ( since they changed the HUD to the same as the JF17 Block III - wonder if it has adopted the same new wide MFD display system aswell ).
> 
> View attachment 812186
> 
> 
> Or like this ?
> 
> View attachment 812188


Modernization of K8 NG to single MFD would be a pointer...


----------



## Dreamer.

Iron Shrappenel said:


> Modernization of K8 NG to single MFD would be a pointer...


I would say that the layout of PLAAF J-10C that are already in service would be more of a pointer than anything that comes to K-8. Has anyone got any pics/information on those?


----------



## AMG_12

siegecrossbow said:


> Hope they enjoyed the spicy lamb hotpot during their stay.


Or some Luosifen

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## CodeforFood

Falconless said:


> Imagine after all this, nothing shows up on 23rd March.


Now that will be sadly funny


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## syed_yusuf

CodeforFood said:


> Now that will be sadly funny


At this point nothing is official except sheikh sahib's speach


----------



## rAli

@PanzerKiel 

Chalain kuch aur nahi to shakal hi bata dein... shakal (camo) chinese hay (PLAAF) ya Amreeki (like our F-16s).

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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> Nope ... in fact AFAIK only the B is flying on single engined types.
> 
> 
> 
> You know it already!  I remain sceptical until i have proof, but the point is, in terms of credibility he is playing in a totally different league, in fact the only thing you do is "plying"!
> 
> He is one of the few here who really seem to know his stuff, he is rarely posting details but when he posts, he seems to be correct even if only after some time ... when you post, you always start with a rant, most of what you post is either irrelevant blabala, fabricated or plain wrong as long as you can provoke! As such, post whatever you want, it's a free forum but don't expect that anyone with a clue believes in your deliberate troll posts ...
> 
> That's the difference.



Hi,

I say that you have not learnt the ability to comprehend what I had stated.

Your fundamental knowledge of the workings of the defense industry is very weak.

Your general knowledge about machines, equipment is terrible. The issue is not my side---but it is due to your lack of knowledge----.


Read youngman---read----. There is a plethora of books on the subject matter---then maybe after 20-30 years---you might start to get the drift---.

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## mingle

@PanzerKiel Sir any update about plan,, D,,,

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## iLION12345_1

syed_yusuf said:


> You mean real tanks or RC models ?


Real of course. I don’t think the military produces RC models of the M110A2

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## The Eagle

siegecrossbow said:


> Hope they enjoyed the spicy lamb hotpot during their stay.



I have started to love that food actually.

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## Reichmarshal

Reichmarshal said:


> i fired my first M 109 SP at tilla when I was in KG ...............no joke


We were in kharia back in the day n my father was commanding 2 engs in 6 armor div.
It was winter collective n the whole contonment was empty except the families.
Our next door neighbor was LT.Col Bashir ( retd as a brig.) Was commanding arty unit. Can't recall which unit. 
His unit was one of the first unit to recieve the m109. Lt col Bashir along with his wife (may ALLAH grant her jannah) arranged for basically all the officers families to be taken to the range to witness the field fire/ picnic.
So in busses we all went. 
Once we reached the place we saw these brand spanking new "tanks"( kid my age would be hard pressed to tell the differance) linked up. uncle Bashir took all the kids n assigned a SP each n said I will fire the first shot n after that each one of u will fire.
Imagine the excitement on our faces. 
So the gunner handed me the cord to pull. 
Low n behold uncle Bashir fired the first shot n the roar of the gun n how the earth shook was an other experience. 
Most of the kids ran away after hearing the first to the vehicles parked like 1km away. I too after firing my gun went n joined them.
After every shot the bus would move from side to side.
After the firing a sumptuous lunch was arranged. N finally ww rode around the range on a m 109.
Those were the days.

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## Raja Porus

Reichmarshal said:


> i fired my first M 109 SP at tilla when I was in KG ...............no joke


I fired my 122mm at tilla when I was in 3ed grade...no joke



PanzerKiel said:


> should have all the reasons to be jealous....my kitty includes alot, to name a few....Mirages, Blk 52s, J-10s, Agosta 90s, host of naval ships including F22, drove VT-4, T-80, AZ, M113s, fired multiple artillery guns (including my favorite, 130 mm M-59), Baktar Shikan ATGM.....


You've missed Dhai tonne, Ive that to my credit..



Reichmarshal said:


> We were in kharia back in the day n my father was commanding 2 engs in 6 armor div.
> It was winter collective n the whole contonment was empty except the families.
> Our next door neighbor was LT.Col Bashir ( retd as a brig.) Was commanding arty unit. Can't recall which unit.
> His unit was one of the first unit to recieve the m109. Lt col Bashir along with his wife (may ALLAH grant her jannah) arranged for basically all the officers families to be taken to the range to witness the field fire/ picnic.
> So in busses we all went.
> Once we reached the place we saw these brand spanking new "tanks"( kid my age would be hard pressed to tell the differance) linked up. uncle Bashir took all the kids n assigned a SP each n said I will fire the first shot n after that each one of u will fire.
> Imagine the excitement on our faces.
> So the gunner handed me the cord to pull.
> Low n behold uncle Bashir fired the first shot n the roar of the gun n how the earth shook was an other experience.
> Most of the kids ran away after hearing the first to the vehicles parked like 1km away. I too after firing my gun went n joined them.
> After every shot the bus would move from side to side.
> After the firing a sumptuous lunch was arranged. N finally ww rode around the range on a m 109.
> Those were the days.


Same story, but then my father was commanding a Sigs Bn and the YOs persuaded him to let me fire. I was scared shitless not gonna lie but after firing the first round, I wanted to fire another but the arty boys refused that they were out of shells. 
I slept for the rest of the day because of the nausea or something like that

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## NA71

high hopes.....3rd Anniversary of surprise day will be special ...Inshallah.

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## SIPRA

NA71 said:


> 3rd Anniversary of surprise day will be special ...Inshallah.



How?


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## Salza

SIPRA said:


> How?


something may get revealed officially something which can fly fast and fire long

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## NA71

SIPRA said:


> How?


because that will be the "Sunday"

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## tphuang

Just curious, how many F-7s and Mirages are still in service with PAF? Can they be replaced 1-to-1 by incoming JF-17s? I'd think J-10s will eventually replace F-16s in PAF, but maybe they initially take over some JF-17s squadrons which then replaces F-7/Mirages.


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## CodeforFood

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I say that you have not learnt the ability to comprehend what I had stated.
> 
> Your fundamental knowledge of the workings of the defense industry is very weak.
> 
> Your general knowledge about machines, equipment is terrible. The issue is not my side---but it is due to your lack of knowledge----.
> 
> 
> Read youngman---read----. There is a plethora of books on the subject matter---then maybe after 20-30 years---you might start to get the drift---.


Yes @Deino why don't you read man!

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## Deino

CodeforFood said:


> Yes @Deino why don't you read man!




Probably since I'm simply stupid  ... but in return I would like to tell him: reading alone makes no sense, if comprehending is the issue!

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## NA71

a good one

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## Scorpio_26

Falconless said:


> Imagine after all this, nothing shows up on 23rd March.


Peak komedy


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## Big_bud

Reichmarshal said:


> We were in kharia back in the day n my father was commanding 2 engs in 6 armor div.
> It was winter collective n the whole contonment was empty except the families.
> Our next door neighbor was LT.Col Bashir ( retd as a brig.) Was commanding arty unit. Can't recall which unit.
> His unit was one of the first unit to recieve the m109. Lt col Bashir along with his wife (may ALLAH grant her jannah) arranged for basically all the officers families to be taken to the range to witness the field fire/ picnic.
> So in busses we all went.
> Once we reached the place we saw these brand spanking new "tanks"( kid my age would be hard pressed to tell the differance) linked up. uncle Bashir took all the kids n assigned a SP each n said I will fire the first shot n after that each one of u will fire.
> Imagine the excitement on our faces.
> So the gunner handed me the cord to pull.
> Low n behold uncle Bashir fired the first shot n the roar of the gun n how the earth shook was an other experience.
> Most of the kids ran away after hearing the first to the vehicles parked like 1km away. I too after firing my gun went n joined them.
> After every shot the bus would move from side to side.
> After the firing a sumptuous lunch was arranged. N finally ww rode around the range on a m 109.
> Those were the days.



So basically your uncle used public money for personal enjoyment? They fired whole rounds for fun! Amazing. Idk under which law army officers do that? And under which head those expenses are counted? It is pretty frequent, I know that and should be discouraged.

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## MIRauf

Big_bud said:


> So basically your uncle used public money for personal enjoyment? They fired whole rounds for fun! Amazing. Idk under which law army officers do that? And under which head those expenses are counted? It is pretty frequent, I know that and should be discouraged.


Actually Sir, the tab was more then likely picked up by tax payers like MK, myself and other US tax payers,


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## Riz



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## Big_bud

MIRauf said:


> Actually Sir, the tab was more then likely picked up by tax payers like MK, myself and other US tax payers,



You took it to a different debate altogether. One which you will most probably fail miserably if we start scratching the surface and digging the facts. US tax payers can not fund exuberant state expenses anyways. US prints dollars to fund its military empire. It uses that military empire to force its currency as global trade currency. The day full burden of American state spending befalls upon American citizens, the society would completely collapse like a house of cards.

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## MIRauf

Big_bud said:


> You took it to a different debate altogether. One which you will most probably fail miserably if we start scratching the surface and digging the facts. US tax payers can not fund exuberant state expenses anyways. US prints dollars to fund its military empire. It uses that military empire to force its currency as global trade currency. The day full burden of American state spending befalls upon American citizens, the society would completely collapse like a house of cards.


My point still stands, not a penny errr paisa likely came out of Pak state coffers.

PS: Rest of your points are valid and spot on, world will be one ugly place the day US state economy collapses.

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## MastanKhan

Big_bud said:


> You took it to a different debate altogether. One which you will most probably fail miserably if we start scratching the surface and digging the facts. US tax payers can not fund exuberant state expenses anyways. US prints dollars to fund its military empire. It uses that military empire to force its currency as global trade currency. The day full burden of American state spending befalls upon American citizens, the society would completely collapse like a house of cards.



Hi,

The camel's LIP is not going to fall.


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## Goenitz

Big_bud said:


> So basically your uncle used public money for personal enjoyment? They fired whole rounds for fun! Amazing. Idk under which law army officers do that? And under which head those expenses are counted? It is pretty frequent, I know that and should be discouraged.


I think that activity should be discouraged anyway to show that public assets are public's, but I guess the crew has already set the coordinates etc but just to fire teh weapon., they allowed the kid to fire. So, all the exercise goals were met except the firing.


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## Trailer23

Less than 30 days to go.

'nuff said  .

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## graphican

Trailer23 said:


> Less than 30 days to go.
> 
> 'nuff said  .


25 or 36?


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## Bigbang1983

Big_bud said:


> So basically your uncle used public money for personal enjoyment? They fired whole rounds for fun! Amazing. Idk under which law army officers do that? And under which head those expenses are counted? It is pretty frequent, I know that and should be discouraged.



Salam.
I usually don't add anything if I don't feel it's of a certain value...but I'll offer my two cents here ...

Sorry to say but that's not the whole picture. You have to understand that ordnance has a certain shelf life and the manufacturer recommends usage before that shelf life expires. You can either use it for war or for training. There are other ways of disposal as well but man and equipment needs to be in shape for the real deal and so we have firing ranges. 

Now, Being from an army family, I have also had the privilege of watching a lot of equipment being used very closely with family but honestly those occasions were not planned for "family entertainment". They were planned drills and exercises. 

Military life and soldiery is also a trade and craft and a way of living and so every man who is involved in it does indeed wishes to hand over the craft to the next generation just like doctors wish to make their kids doctors and businessmen expose their next lot to trading. 

For that purpose exposure is the key and so military has a way of generating next generation of motivated warriors who can lay down their lives for motherland. And whenever men in boots take their families to such types of events then what do you get as a by product? Not only do you get motivated youngsters wanting to follow in the footsteps of their parents but you actually get 'warrior families'. 
Our military is full of officers and jawaans from same families. Multiple generations have had the honor of serving the nation. 

Sorry for the long reply.

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## Riz

27 feb 2022 is going to be another surprise day for india

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## maverick1977

graphican said:


> 25 or 36?



final number 36-40, 2 squadrons

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## Abid123

MH.Yang said:


> At Paris air show and Dubai international air show, J10CE quoted $40 million. It is rumored on the Internet that the purchase price of PLA is 200 million CNY ($32 million). This should only be the price of the plane, not the price of the plane flying away.


Thank you. So I guess it should be around 50 million USD for PAF. Honestly that is a excellent price for the capabilities the plane offers. Great aircraft. Bro when did the first J-10C enter service with the PLAAF?

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## MH.Yang

Abid123 said:


> Thank you. So I guess it should be around 50 million USD for PAF. Honestly that is a excellent price for the capabilities the plane offers. Great aircraft. Bro when did the first J-10C enter service with the PLAAF?


J10c was first exposed on the Internet in January 2015. 
In August 2017, J10c performed at the PLA military parade for the first time. 
In April 2018, the PLA released the video of J10c performing combat duty flight mission for the first time.

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## mingle

maverick1977 said:


> final number 36-40, 2 squadrons


This should be initial I feel PAF would go 80/90 copies at least

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## Raider 21

mingle said:


> This should be initial I feel PAF would go 80/90 copies at least


For sure. They have $5 billion in the bank just for aircraft acquisition.

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## mingle

Raider 21 said:


> For sure. They have $5 billion in the bank just for aircraft acquisition.


I am talking about long run

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## Genghis khan1

Big_bud said:


> So basically your uncle used public money for personal enjoyment? They fired whole rounds for fun! Amazing. Idk under which law army officers do that? And under which head those expenses are counted? It is pretty frequent, I know that and should be discouraged.


Back in the day, I heard PAF pilots can take family member (Kid) on a joy ride in their jets (during routine flying). Idk if they still do that.

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## The Eagle

PM Imran Khan Air Force One enters Chinese Air Space. Received & greeted by J-10C fighters formation. What if they were flown by........... 🥷

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## MIRauf

Genghis khan1 said:


> Back in the day, I heard PAF pilots can take family member (Kid) on a joy ride in their jets (during routine flying). Idk if they still do that.


Like F-16s or other two seater ? or are we taking about the VIP transport ? I have heard of few stories in reagrds to C-130s been flown to Lahore to pick up sweets to make Mrs happy, but then again just stories from someone who heard it from someone and as the song writer wrote ( But I know the neighborhood, and talk is cheaper when the story is good, and the tales grow taller down the line. )

If someone suggested it like a two seater jet, kinda reminds me of movie "Iron Eagle". It happens in the movies, hard to pull this type of stunt in real life, not impossible. Fitting a kid in a G suite, a helmet that would wobble around and be of no use.

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## PurpleButcher

The Eagle said:


> PM Imran Khan Air Force One enters Chinese Air Space. Received & greeted by J-10C fighters formation. What if they were flown by........... 🥷


What if they fly back with him as well to chaklala

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## Bleek

The Eagle said:


> PM Imran Khan Air Force One enters Chinese Air Space. Received & greeted by J-10C fighters formation. What if they were flown by........... 🥷


Any photos released??


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## The Eagle

Genghis khan1 said:


> Back in the day, I heard PAF pilots can take family member (Kid) on a joy ride in their jets (during routine flying). Idk if they still do that.



When you start to hear wrong things; must pay attention and understand that there is something wrong to begin with. What on earth makes one to claim that but ironically, someone keep it in mind for that long. C'mon mate.



Bleek said:


> Any photos released??



Nop. Not yet at-least.

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## The Eagle

PanzerKiel said:


> Meanwhile, i saw this screen today
> 
> View attachment 812968
> View attachment 812973


And that video clip of J-10C escorting Premier in Chinese Airspace?

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## MIRauf

PanzerKiel said:


> Meanwhile, i saw this screen today
> 
> View attachment 812968
> View attachment 812973
> 
> 
> 
> *I will really like to bring those goodies back with me.*


Did you take the in-flight picture by any chance ? I see the reflection of the Cell Phone in the mirror.

I do hope that you do *bring them with you*, Sir.

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## The Eagle

PanzerKiel said:


> I will really like to bring those goodies back with me.



Unfair to have such an opportunity by yourself but will you somehow whisper to Premier and make it a history?



MIRauf said:


> Dis you take the in-flight picture by any chance ? I see the reflection of the Cell Phone in the mirror.



Indeed, a selfie while the lady is checking on some WhatsApp messages.

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## MIRauf

The Eagle said:


> Unfair to have such an opportunity by yourself but will you somehow whisper to Premier and make it a history?
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, a selfie while the lady is checking on some WhatsApp messages.


Damn, didn't even think about in flight Wi-Fi, good catch.

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## Trango Towers

The Eagle said:


> PM Imran Khan Air Force One enters Chinese Air Space. Received & greeted by J-10C fighters formation. What if they were flown by........... 🥷


Flown by ninjas? Oh man and I thought I was losing it....(joking). Maybe


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## jaybird

The Eagle said:


> Unfair to have such an opportunity by yourself but will you somehow whisper to Premier and make it a history?
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, a selfie while the lady is checking on some WhatsApp messages.


 Whose to say PanzerKiel is not the one in the pic checking WhatsApp messages.....

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## The Eagle

I thought everyone would have seen the protocol video and shared it already.

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## The Terminator

Interior minister sheikh sahib has repeatedly said in various interviews till this date: "JS10/J-10C are coming .... Military isn't that much happy with my these revelations .... But I preferred to disclose this info. They would perform on 23rd March and to counter indian Rafales"

So his repeated claims have quite frankly cemented this ongoing acquisition by the PAF but the military is still tight lipped in these matters anyways



TsAr said:


> PTV news is already digitized and now PTV sports is also, this year PSL will be telecast in HD.


Congratulations! Finally, the billions of rupees monthly recovered by PTV through utility bills are finally being spent where they were supposed to do ages ago 😜.


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## The Terminator

Invictus01 said:


> No need to reply to him
> He doesn't know the basic concept of BVR engagements
> Neither does he have any idea how modern missles work
> 
> He thinks performing ninja moves in the air would help throw off a missile xD
> That's like holding a gun to someone's head and asking him to duck when the trigger is pulled hoping for the bullet to somehow miss the brains


You can still dodge the bullet by sheer luck and ingenuity. May be 1 in a thousand chance but it's still probable 😎


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## The Eagle

The Terminator said:


> Military isn't that much happy with my these revelations



Please share particular statement link or video source for quoted words by Interior Minister.


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## arjunk

Desert Fox 1 said:


> I fired my 122mm at tilla when I was in 3ed grade...no joke


I nuked Hiroshima while in my grandfathers nutsack

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## Air Wolf

The Eagle said:


> Please share particular statement link or video source for quoted words by Interior Minister.


Interior minister's recent interview with Nadeem Malik.

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## arjunk

The Eagle said:


> Indeed, a selfie while the lady is checking on some WhatsApp messages.

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## The Eagle

Air Wolf said:


> Interior minister's recent interview with Nadeem Malik.



Share link and mark the time stamp for particular statement, for the ease. Thanks in advance.


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## The Terminator

The Eagle said:


> Please share particular statement link or video source for quoted words by Interior Minister.


Lol I would have to watch the whole videos of his couple of recent interviews just to extract a clip of that particular one second. Ok I would try to find out again on YouTube and would share here if found


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## The Terminator

The Eagle said:


> Share link and mark the time stamp for particular statement, for the ease. Thanks in advance.


Ok here I found this
Sheikh Rasheed interview with Nadeem Malik on Samaa TV approximately 9 days ago.



For more clarity the interviewer asked the question about the unveiling of new J-10Cs our military is inducting. Sheikh said *"Insha Allah wo pasand nhi krty forces k log k ye men kahun ...." 

Time stamp: 2:04 *

Here's the link to complete interview:

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## The Terminator

Sheikh started to say "JS-10" now he said "G-10C". I hope he would eventually learn the correct name by the time they would be flying at 23rd March parade day.

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## Big_bud

Bigbang1983 said:


> Salam.
> I usually don't add anything if I don't feel it's of a certain value...but I'll offer my two cents here ...
> 
> Sorry to say but that's not the whole picture. You have to understand that ordnance has a certain shelf life and the manufacturer recommends usage before that shelf life expires. You can either use it for war or for training. There are other ways of disposal as well but man and equipment needs to be in shape for the real deal and so we have firing ranges.
> 
> Now, Being from an army family, I have also had the privilege of watching a lot of equipment being used very closely with family but honestly those occasions were not planned for "family entertainment". They were planned drills and exercises.
> 
> Military life and soldiery is also a trade and craft and a way of living and so every man who is involved in it does indeed wishes to hand over the craft to the next generation just like doctors wish to make their kids doctors and businessmen expose their next lot to trading.
> 
> For that purpose exposure is the key and so military has a way of generating next generation of motivated warriors who can lay down their lives for motherland. And whenever men in boots take their families to such types of events then what do you get as a by product? Not only do you get motivated youngsters wanting to follow in the footsteps of their parents but you actually get 'warrior families'.
> Our military is full of officers and jawaans from same families. Multiple generations have had the honor of serving the nation.
> 
> Sorry for the long reply.



Don't you think if some expiring ammunition has to be used for motivational purposes it should be a public event? Or only children of army officers are supposed to become army officers? After khandani siyasat do we have khadnani genrayli? Doesn't make any sense.


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## NA71

The Terminator said:


> Sheikh started to say "JS-10" now he said "G-10C". I hope he would eventually learn the correct name by the time they would be flying at 23rd March parade day.


he will finally end up with the final name "W-11" (Karachi's famous mini bus code)

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## GriffinsRule

Still not 100% sure if those J-10s will be from PLAAF or PAF. Guess time will tell


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## The Terminator

Raider 21 said:


> For sure. They have $5 billion in the bank just for aircraft acquisition.


How do you get to know Pakistan going to get $5 billion? Probably $3 billion from China, $1 billion each from Russia and Kazakhstan. Now kiss goodbye to US *** IMF 😜.

When US was leaving Afghanistan, Pakistan was already tilting towards east. Now I guess Pakistan financially also going into the eastern block led by China and Russia. That's fascinating that how Pakistan and India switched sides simultaneously 😜😂



Riz said:


> 27 feb 2022 is going to be another surprise day for india
> 
> 
> View attachment 812785


Then modi would say. Agr F-35 hota to ....

😂😂🤣🤣


----------



## The Terminator

Big_bud said:


> Don't you think if some expiring ammunition has to be used for motivational purposes it should be a public event? Or only children of army officers are supposed to become army officers? After khandani siyasat do we have khadnani genrayli? Doesn't make any sense.


When our national slogan is: "Khata hai to Kuch lgata bhi to hai na"

When corruption becomes a norm of the society and our second instinct then how would you rule out any sphere of life from that scourge?

No department is immune to that epidemic. I myself have observed utter abuse of power and slaughter of merit by civil, uniformed/ex uniformed officers despite having half a dozen investigating and Intel agencies working simultaneously there but eventually to no logical conclusion.

Classic global example of our failure is the escape of a convicted criminal from our prison directly to London via Qatari jumbo jet. All spheres of authority and power were culprits in this shameful act. Either revolutionary Govt, independent Judiciary or strong establishment, no one can prove itself innocent in this epic stunt.

That's unfortunate and tragic for our country and nation. Don't know how and when we become immune and accustomed to the corruption and respecting/praising/defending morally, financially and/or religiously corrupt people. That's a serious terminal disease in ourselves.

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## Big_bud

The Terminator said:


> When our national slogan is: "Khata hai to Kuch lgata bhi to hai na"
> 
> When corruption becomes a norm of the society and our second instinct then how would you rule out any sphere of life from that scourge?
> 
> No department is immune to that epidemic. I myself have observed utter abuse of power and slaughter of merit by civil, uniformed/ex uniformed officers despite having half a dozen investigating and Intel agencies working simultaneously there but eventually to no logical conclusion.
> 
> Classic global example of our failure is the escape of a convicted criminal from our prison directly to London via Qatari jumbo jet. All spheres of authority and power were culprits in this shameful act. Either revolutionary Govt, independent Judiciary or strong establishment, no one can prove itself innocent in this epic stunt.
> 
> That's unfortunate and tragic for our country and nation. Don't know how and when we become immune and accustomed to the corruption and respecting/praising/defending morally, financially and/or religiously corrupt people. That's a serious terminal disease in ourselves.



Society overall is on a collapse. Army is made up of members of society. It is disheartening to see that our military is also setting the bar lower and lower every day. Just look at the poor intelligence work, inability to maintain peace, everything is acceptable. Anything goes, compromise on each and everything. Loss of life is a joke. Aiming low is no big deal, attaining lower than already lowly aimed is no big deal. We are a bunch of losers who think we are somebody.

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## maverick1977

The planes have started to land, 8 have arrived.

. Anyone else have heard this too ?

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## luciferdd

maverick1977 said:


> The planes have started to land, 8 have arrived.
> 
> . Anyone else have heard this too ?


Any source?

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## NA71

luciferdd said:


> Any source?


 eye witness most probably


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## The Eagle

The Terminator said:


> Lol I would have to watch the whole videos of his couple of recent interviews just to extract a clip of that particular one second. Ok I would try to find out again on YouTube and would share here if found



Since you already shared it, let me say it in regard to your quoted post. If you are relating a statement with an official on this Forum; it is your responsibility to share the source/proof/evidence as well unless or until that is your personal claim/opinion. I am not blaming but informing you in-case if you don't know. However, personal request in regard to time stamp the video, was made to avoid torture for listening an hour political commentary.

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## araz

The Eagle said:


> Since you already shared it, let me say it in regard to your quoted post. If you are relating a statement with an official on this Forum; it is your responsibility to share the source/proof/evidence as well unless or until that is your personal claim/opinion. I am not blaming but informing you in-case if you don't know. However, personal request in regard to time stamp the video, was made to avoid torture for listening an hour political commentary.


ASAK.
Sorry but I have also beard this interview of Sh Rasheed with Nadeem Malik. He did again say that J10 will do fly past in March parade. Iagree in principle with what you say and the relevant video is now there.
Regards
A

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## Clutch

Big_bud said:


> Society overall is on a collapse. Army is made up of members of society. It is disheartening to see that our military is also setting the bar lower and lower every day. Just look at the poor intelligence work, inability to maintain peace, everything is acceptable. Anything goes, compromise on each and everything. Loss of life is a joke. Aiming low is no big deal, attaining lower than already lowly aimed is no big deal. We are a bunch of losers who think we are somebody.



This is what happens when corruption is normalized. Cancer spreads.


----------



## iLION12345_1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> I fired my 122mm at tilla when I was in 3ed grade...no joke
> 
> 
> You've missed Dhai tonne, Ive that to my credit..
> 
> 
> Same story, but then my father was commanding a Sigs Bn and the YOs persuaded him to let me fire. I was scared shitless not gonna lie but after firing the first round, I wanted to fire another but the arty boys refused that they were out of shells.
> I slept for the rest of the day because of the nausea or something like that


Should I start with my list now or

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## Goritoes

Sorry for been the devils advocate here, but under the recent attacks in Pakistan, and how Pakistani forces are getting attacked daily, should we not cancel any parade or March for this year ?


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## Beast

Goritoes said:


> Sorry for been the devils advocate here, but under the recent attacks in Pakistan, and how Pakistani forces are getting attacked daily, should we not cancel any parade or March for this year ?


Will that give a wrong signal to terrorist if parade is cancel?

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## Goritoes

Beast said:


> Will that give a wrong signal to terrorist if parade is cancel?


I'd rather give them wrong signal than risking an attack on parade, where foreign dignitaries will be present. Even if a bullet is fired close to the venue we will have evacuate everyone and that will be horrible for Pakistan's image as Pakistan is trying to get investments and business from countries.

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## Beast

Goritoes said:


> I'd rather give them wrong signal than risking an attack on parade, where foreign dignitaries will be present. Even if a bullet is fired close to the venue we will have evacuate everyone and that will be horrible for Pakistan's image as Pakistan is trying to get investments and business from countries.


That means Pakistan is beaten down by terrorist. Precisely, terrorist use extreme way to ruin your way of life. I think that will only encourage terrorist to be more daring until Pakistan government meet their demand.

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## Goritoes

Beast said:


> That means Pakistan is beaten down by terrorist. Precisely, terrorist use extreme way to ruin your way of life. I think that will only encourage terrorist to be more daring until Pakistan government meet their demand.


Nope, Pakistan day Parades were stopped when Pakistan was fighting the WOT, now there is another serious wave of Attacks in Pakistan, its just precaution and sensible decision making, no time for been emotional. For you saying this is easy because it won't be Chinese Soldiers that will die, It won't be Chinese Image that will be ruined, It won't be China who will not get any investors or tourists if a attack does happen. Right now we have to be smart rather been emotional.


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## Salza

Goritoes said:


> Nope, Pakistan day Parades were stopped when Pakistan was fighting the WOT, now there is another serious wave of Attacks in Pakistan, its just precaution and sensible decision making, no time for been emotional. For you saying this is easy because it won't be Chinese Soldiers that will die, It won't be Chinese Image that will be ruined, It won't be China who will not get any investors or tourists if a attack does happen. Right now we have to be smart rather been emotional.



Agreed. Not just the parade but Australia should also cancel their tour to Pakistan. I am quite skeptical about the security for that tour now. Militants are giving a false sense of security by not doing terrorism during ongoing PSL matches since their bigger aim might be to target Australian tour. Any such attack will make Pakistan a no go area for cricketing world for the next 5 years.


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## I.R.A

Beast said:


> That means Pakistan is beaten down by terrorist. Precisely, terrorist use extreme way to ruin your way of life. I think that will only encourage terrorist to be more daring until Pakistan government meet their demand.



They are only attacking in remote regions and that too on security forces' check posts and installations. Unless they have gathered enough resources, Pakistan's mainland is not that easily in their reach.

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## Beast

I.R.A said:


> They are only attacking in remote regions and that too on security forces' check posts and installations. Unless they have gathered enough resources, Pakistan's mainland is not that easily in their reach.


Then Pakistan shall proceed for the parade to show their security competency and nation unity.


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## Windjammer

Beast said:


> Then Pakistan shall proceed for the parade to show their security competency and nation unity.


Indeed it will, a day before the parade an OIC summit is being held and all the dignitaries will be present to witness the parade.

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## I.R.A

Beast said:


> Then Pakistan shall proceed for the parade to show their security competency and nation unity.



Absolutely.

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## arjunk

Don't let the terrorists terrorise you and achieve their goal. All of their attacks have been limited to border areas and Balochistan. North Punjab and Islamabad are the safest places in the country, and their security is not neglected like Balochistan's; in fact, it's the opposite

BLA had this idea of attacking the stock exchange in Karachi in 2020 and creating a hostage situation. It was picked up by intelligence agencies, the whole country was put on high security alert beforehand, and the attackers were killed by local LEAs in 8 minutes, no SSG involved.



Goritoes said:


> I'd rather give them wrong signal than risking an attack on parade, where foreign dignitaries will be present. Even if a bullet is fired close to the venue we will have evacuate everyone and that will be horrible for Pakistan's image as Pakistan is trying to get investments and business from countries.





Salza said:


> Agreed. Not just the parade but Australia should also cancel their tour to Pakistan. I am quite skeptical about the security for that tour now. Militants are giving a false sense of security by not doing terrorism during ongoing PSL matches since their bigger aim might be to target Australian tour. Any such attack will make Pakistan a no go area for cricketing world for the next 5 years.

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## Scorpiooo

Prade can be effected by covid


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## Goritoes

Salza said:


> Agreed. Not just the parade but Australia should also cancel their tour to Pakistan. I am quite skeptical about the security for that tour now. Militants are giving a false sense of security by not doing terrorism during ongoing PSL matches since their bigger aim might be to target Australian tour. Any such attack will make Pakistan a no go area for cricketing world for the next 5 years.


People are just Jazbati here, emotional and not thinking straight, Attack even close proximity of Parade will end the image of Pakistan as a safe country for tourist and investors, but Pakistani's as usual are running after false bravado and Jazbat, that is why nation and country is on the decline... We want our leaders to make decision based on emotions not intelligence.



arjunk said:


> Don't let the terrorists terrorise you and achieve their goal. All of their attacks have been limited to border areas and Balochistan. North Punjab and Islamabad are the safest places in the country, and their security is not neglected like Balochistan's; in fact, it's the opposite


Yaar nobody is asking Pakistani's to stop breathing, its just a parade where foreign dignitaries will be present, National and International Media will be there, BLA/TTP has shown time and time again they can hit where ever they want in Pakistan, they have sleeper cells in every major cities of Pakistan, why risk it all ? For a parade ? 



arjunk said:


> BLA had this idea of attacking the stock exchange in Karachi in 2020 and creating a hostage situation. It was picked up by intelligence agencies, the whole country was put on high security alert beforehand, and the attackers were killed by local LEAs in 8 minutes, no SSG involved.


True, but as soon as the news got out that KSE was attacked the damage was already done for those who wants to invest in Pakistan, or see Pakistan as a safe country...


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## Bleek

Goritoes said:


> People are just Jazbati here, emotional and not thinking straight, Attack even close proximity of Parade will end the image of Pakistan as a safe country for tourist and investors, but Pakistani's as usual are running after false bravado and Jazbat, that is why nation and country is on the decline... We want our leaders to make decision based on emotions not intelligence.
> 
> 
> Yaar nobody is asking Pakistani's to stop breathing, its just a parade where foreign dignitaries will be present, National and International Media will be there, BLA/TTP has shown time and time again they can hit where ever they want in Pakistan, they have sleeper cells in every major cities of Pakistan, why risk it all ? For a parade ?


While I understand your reasoning, there's another aspect I think you're overlooking;

The moment you cancel these national events you tell the world that Pakistan is not a safe country, and you yourself don't have trust in the security. Remember how much of a fuss was made about NZ cancelling? And now you yourself cancel...

This will immediately have a negative effect, for FDI and tourism. Headlines will be made about cancelled events due to security concerns following terror attacks.

Don't think Indian news sources won't lash out at this opportunity.

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## MH.Yang

Goritoes said:


> People are just Jazbati here, emotional and not thinking straight, Attack even close proximity of Parade will end the image of Pakistan as a safe country for tourist and investors, but Pakistani's as usual are running after false bravado and Jazbat, that is why nation and country is on the decline... We want our leaders to make decision based on emotions not intelligence.
> 
> 
> Yaar nobody is asking Pakistani's to stop breathing, its just a parade where foreign dignitaries will be present, National and International Media will be there, BLA/TTP has shown time and time again they can hit where ever they want in Pakistan, they have sleeper cells in every major cities of Pakistan, why risk it all ? For a parade ?
> 
> 
> True, but as soon as the news got out that KSE was attacked the damage was already done for those who wants to invest in Pakistan, or see Pakistan as a safe country...



Canceling the parade is tantamount to surrendering to terrorist organizations, which will seriously damage Pakistan's reputation and credibility. 
Pakistan can improve security to prevent terrorist attacks. If the terrorist attack still happens, it means that the terrorist organization declares war on all countries participating in the military parade.

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## Goritoes

Bleek said:


> While I understand your reasoning, there's another aspect I think you're overlooking;
> 
> The moment you cancel these national events you tell the world that Pakistan is not a safe country, and you yourself don't have trust in the security. Remember how much of a fuss was made about NZ cancelling? And now you yourself cancel...
> 
> This will immediately have a negative effect, for FDI and tourism. Headlines will be made about cancelled events due to security concerns following terror attacks.
> 
> Don't think Indian news sources won't lash out at this opportunity.


For once think practical, the whole country is under attack, as long forces contain these b@stards we have to stop these events so we don't attract much international attention or else all the effort Pakistan did to create a image of a safe country will be gone. Remember before Attack on Sri Lankan team, there were many attacks on Pakistan soil but International cricket was still going on, but as soon their team got attacked International sports were gone.


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## Riz

Stay on topic fallows, this is J-10c related thread and not national day parade

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## Salza

Goritoes said:


> For once think practical, the whole country is under attack, as long forces contain these b@stards we have to stop these events so we don't attract much international attention or else all the effort Pakistan did to create a image of a safe country will be gone. Remember before Attack on Sri Lankan team, there were many attacks on Pakistan soil but International cricket was still going on, but as soon their team got attacked International sports were gone.



Not just the parade but crucial Australian tour will be happening in March as well. Security forces at all levels should go on alert at war footings. Extra troops should be deployed now itself. Very important new 2 months for our image. Idiotic PDM is also planning their dharna during this month, militants can easily use them as a shield when thousands of people will gather at the same place and time.

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## Chak Bamu

Guys please come back to the topic at hand.

Can we discuss terrorist activity on some other thread, please?

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## Titanium100

Windjammer said:


> Indeed it will, a day before the parade an OIC summit is being held and all the dignitaries will be present to witness the parade.



OIC summit? Is this official? which means the wnd one in short time


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## Deino

@The Eagle 

*Guys ... there have been already two or even three requests to stick to the topic and stop with these off-topic and purely political stuff! *

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490300228074885122

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## Deino

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490300228074885122

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## raja786

Some times it feels administrators don't follow there own rules, put a thread ban on Me going off topic but here they don't see it or ignore it.

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## mdmm

Which jet fighter will take part in Pakistan Day 2022 parade ?
Honorable Sh. Rashid confirmed that J-10 will participate in parade.
What about Z-10 ME and JF17 Block3 ??I was reading in some Pakistani newspaper that "" Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is set to induct 50 Block III JF-17 Thunder fighter jets into its fleet by the end of the month while the new jets will be a part of the Pakistan Day Parade to be held on 23 March.""
Could ,any one confirm above 3 participants ??


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## HAIDER

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1327275653125828610


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## The Eagle

mdmm said:


> Pakistani newspaper



Nothing confirmed about Block-III or Z-10ME officially except for Interior Minister shares about J-10C induction and flying display. Will you please share link to subjected newspaper so the credibility can be confirmed. To begin with; PAF has ordered only 30 Block-III and we have seen only 11 examples including PTs, being built so far. So, it is in-fact impossible to expect 50 Block-IIIs being inducted by the last of the month which speaks volume about the credibility of that source in advance.


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## mdmm

The Eagle:: SENIOR MODERATOR.​Thank you very much for listening to overseas Pakistanis, who are always waiting to see their motherland on top ,in industry, arms, defence and public education level .
Today Pakistan is suffering huge , because majority of Pakistani citizen (even holding some degrees) are totally illitrate and idoits who do not undersatnd the importance of a united, educated, developed, powerful country, Pakistan, who is saving their a.........

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## Ibr0kEmYrAz0r

HAIDER said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1327275653125828610


The Chinese characters under "J-10C" meaning "Vigorous Dragon"

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## Raider 21

mdmm said:


> The Eagle:: SENIOR MODERATOR.​Thank you very much for listening to overseas Pakistanis, who are always waiting to see their motherland on top ,in industry, arms, defence and public education level .
> Today Pakistan is suffering huge , because majority of Pakistani citizen (even holding some degrees) are totally illitrate and idoits who do not undersatnd the importance of a united, educated, developed, powerful country, Pakistan, who is saving their a.........


Need to understand that being qualified and educated are not necessarily the same. Almost anyone can be qualified, getting educated is largely cultural.

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## Dreamer.

MH.Yang said:


> The North Korean Air Force showed their leader Kim Jong Un the PL10 and PL12 they obtained.
> So North Korea may buy second-hand J10A from China. China has 220 J10A and 88 J10S.
> 
> View attachment 814090


Gents, I think there are other J-10 threads where this would be relevant. 

This thread is for J-10 procurement by PAF only.

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## MH.Yang

Dreamer. said:


> Gents, I think there are other J-10 threads where this would be relevant.
> 
> This thread is for J-10 procurement by PAF only.




I'm real sorry.


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## tphuang

Considering the relationship between China and Pakistan, I can easily see a scenario where China offers PAF some used J-10As upgraded to J-10C standard in avionics and weapon support. And PAF would just need to pay for the upgrade cost. That would be a good way for PAF to cheaply add capabilities. I really can't see China wanting to keep the older J-10A and J-10S past 2030. Offering them to PAF after MLU and upgrading seems like an obvious move.

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## Deino

MH.Yang said:


> North Korea's economy has been in good shape in recent years. I think they should pay for these planes.




Can we stop with this stupid NK-discussion in this thread?   NK and Pakistan's parade?!!!

Even more there is an arms embargo and I'm sure, Pakistan won't sell them their own to NK just right after delivery.

@The Eagle

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## The Eagle

Off-topic posts are removed for instance. Please maintain decorum & remain on topic in hand. 

Regards,

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## Ghessan

tphuang said:


> Considering the relationship between China and Pakistan, I can easily see a scenario where China offers PAF some used J-10As upgraded to J-10C standard in avionics and weapon support. And PAF would just need to pay for the upgrade cost. That would be a good way for PAF to cheaply add capabilities. I really can't see China wanting to keep the older J-10A and J-10S past 2030. Offering them to PAF after MLU and upgrading seems like an obvious move.


let us enjoy spanking new jets and have fun with them. what you have suggested can be an option. PAF is going to build a big figure on these planes.


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## Titanium100

tphuang said:


> Considering the relationship between China and Pakistan, I can easily see a scenario where China offers PAF some used J-10As upgraded to J-10C standard in avionics and weapon support. And PAF would just need to pay for the upgrade cost. That would be a good way for PAF to cheaply add capabilities. I really can't see China wanting to keep the older J-10A and J-10S past 2030. Offering them to PAF after MLU and upgrading seems like an obvious move.



I don't think they will need them past 2030 as they will likely shift to 5th generation stealth around 2028-2029


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## MH.Yang

Titanium100 said:


> I don't think they will need them past 2030 as they will likely shift to 5th generation stealth around 2028-2029


The design life of J10A body is 4000 hours, and mandatory retirement life is 7000 hours. 
The first batch of J10A began service in 2004. The first batch of J10A compulsory decommissioning should expire in 2029, but the Chinese Air Force usually retires fighters according to the design life. Therefore, J10A has entered the retirement cycle in PLAAF.
I don't think PAF will choose a group of aircraft that have begun to retire.

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## RealNapster

Senator Aon Abbas just confirmed the purchase of J-10C (which he btw in the flow said JC-10, but we all know what he meant) in Hard Talk Show of Mowed Pirzada. Watch 5:35 onward.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=685914329081551

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## alikazmi007

RealNapster said:


> Senator Aon Abbas just confirmed the purchase of J-10C (which he btw in the flow said JC-10, but we all know what he meant) in Hard Talk Show of Mowed Pirzada. Watch 5:35 onward.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=685914329081551


JC-10 again ....

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## .King.

alikazmi007 said:


> JC-10 again ....
> 
> View attachment 814320


Last time it was JS 10. 😂

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## Riz

RealNapster said:


> Senator Aon Abbas just confirmed the purchase of J-10C (which he btw in the flow said JC-10, but we all know what he meant) in Hard Talk Show of Mowed Pirzada. Watch 5:35 onward.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=685914329081551


J-10c ko yahan any sa pehly pehly inho na DC-11 bana daina ha

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## tphuang

Titanium100 said:


> I don't think they will need them past 2030 as they will likely shift to 5th generation stealth around 2028-2029


This idea isn't for that timeframe. It would be for a couple of years from now once paf likes it's j10c and don't have enough fund for more new j10c. I have no idea how much money paf has, but it does have a lot of aircraft to replace. Including all of the f16s.

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## NA71

RealNapster said:


> Senator Aon Abbas just confirmed the purchase of J-10C (which he btw in the flow said JC-10, but we all know what he meant) in Hard Talk Show of Mowed Pirzada. Watch 5:35 onward.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=685914329081551



JC-10 ....my God ....these politicians.....

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## SIPRA

NA71 said:


> JC-10 ....my God ....these politicians.....



Next, it will be 10CJ, when Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain will come forward.

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## Fioril

tphuang said:


> This idea isn't for that timeframe. It would be for a couple of years from now once paf likes it's j10c and don't have enough fund for more new j10c. I have no idea how much money paf has, but it does have a lot of aircraft to replace. Including all of the f16s.


Pakistan F-16s were upgraded in 2010-14 to Blk 52 standards so they most likely will stay here for atleast 10-15 years and therefore will most likely be replaced by 5th gen aircraft. And if by any , any chance Pakistan Pak-US relations improve in next 5-7 years and these get upgraded to blk 70 standards ,these F-16s will stay here till 2045-50.

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## Bleek

Fioril said:


> Pakistan F-16s were upgraded in 2010-14 to Blk 52 standards so they most likely will stay here for atleast 10-15 years and therefore will most likely be replaced by 5th gen aircraft. And if by any , any chance Pakistan Pak-US relations improve in next 5-7 years and these get upgraded to blk 70 standards ,these F-16s will stay here till 2045-50.


18 out of 75 are Block 52...


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## That Guy

Fioril said:


> Pakistan F-16s were upgraded in 2010-14 to Blk 52 standards so they most likely will stay here for at least 10-15 years and therefore will be replaced by 5th gen aircraft. And if by, any chance Pakistan Pak-US relations improve in the next 5-7 years and these get upgraded to blk 70 standards these F-16s will stay here till 2045-50.


Actually, I fully expect relations to improve drastically between the two, especially as the US slowly realizes what every sane-expert concluded a long time ago, India isn't gonna do what the US wants, and outside of China, they have no interests in common.

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## Bleek

That Guy said:


> Actually, I fully expect relations to improve drastically between the two, especially as the US slowly realizes what every sane-expert concluded a long time ago, India isn't gonna do what the US wants, and outside of China, they have no interests in common.


Do you think USA will balance a relationship between Pakistan and India?


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## iLION12345_1

Bleek said:


> 18 out of 75 are Block 52...


The rest were upgraded with avionics packages and radar from Block 52+ Along with structural upgrades by TAI. They were also upgraded with Tape 3/MLU kits before that. 63/75 are equivalent to block 52+ in that regard. They however don’t have the CFTs, Some of the EW upgrades and the extra hardpoint of the block 52+

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## Fioril

Bleek said:


> 18 out of 75 are Block 52...


18 are new Blk 52s
13 are ADFs 
Remaining 44 were upgraded to Blk 52 standards by Turkey in the 2010-2014 time frame . They may not perform exactly like new Blk 52s but they are on par with it.

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## iLION12345_1

Fioril said:


> 18 are new Blk 52s
> 13 are ADFs
> Remaining 44 were upgraded to Blk 52 standards by Turkey in the 2010-2014 time frame . They may not perform exactly like new Blk 52s but they are on par with it.


Not exactly upgraded all the way to Block 52+ standard, they got the avionics, Radars, weapon package, structural and cockpit upgrades of Block 52+ along with support for the JHMCS. I’m not sure what was added in the MLU/Tape 3 kits before that however.

They’re still missing some of the upgrades to take them to Block 52+ standard (CFTs, spinal EW, extra hardpoints etc) but they’re not too far off from them, at least not weapons capability wise.

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## SABRE

Riz said:


> J-10c ko yahan any sa pehly pehly inho na DC-11 bana daina ha



More like DC-10.


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## That Guy

Bleek said:


> Do you think USA will balance a relationship between Pakistan and India?


Depends on a number of factors, but one thing for sure is that it does not want a full scale war between the two.

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## tphuang

Fioril said:


> Pakistan F-16s were upgraded in 2010-14 to Blk 52 standards so they most likely will stay here for atleast 10-15 years and therefore will most likely be replaced by 5th gen aircraft. And if by any , any chance Pakistan Pak-US relations improve in next 5-7 years and these get upgraded to blk 70 standards ,these F-16s will stay here till 2045-50.


Maybe Pakistan needs to aim a little higher than that. Having 80s built f16s extended twice to serve for 60 years is not a good thing.

By late 2020s, Pakistan should be looking to get 5th gen aircraft.

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## Bleek

tphuang said:


> Maybe Pakistan needs to aim a little higher than that. Having 80s built f16s extended twice to serve for 60 years is not a good thing.
> 
> By late 2020s, Pakistan should be looking to get 5th gen aircraft.


According to some members we have tried but were denied


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## alibaz

The Terminator said:


> Sheikh started to say "JS-10" now he said "G-10C". I hope he would eventually learn the correct name by the time they would be flying at 23rd March parade day.


I think he does wrong pronunciation and funny names as style cause i heard him speaking error free verbatim of given script as information minister during Musharraf's era.


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## maverick1977

Thats why its called Block 50 instead of block 52+ after the upgrade, very close to block 52+ as pointed out.


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## MH.Yang

F16 is an excellent multi-purpose fighter, it is different from J10C which is a pure air superiority fighter. 

In the South China Sea and East China Sea, Chinese fighters often meet F16 on maritime missions. 

Why doesn't Pakistan consider replacing the Mirage with F16?

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## siegecrossbow

tphuang said:


> Considering the relationship between China and Pakistan, I can easily see a scenario where China offers PAF some used J-10As upgraded to J-10C standard in avionics and weapon support. And PAF would just need to pay for the upgrade cost. That would be a good way for PAF to cheaply add capabilities. I really can't see China wanting to keep the older J-10A and J-10S past 2030. Offering them to PAF after MLU and upgrading seems like an obvious move.



Upgraded J-10A are rumored for North Korea.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

MH.Yang said:


> F16 is an excellent multi-purpose fighter, it is different from J10C which is a pure air superiority fighter.
> 
> In the South China Sea and East China Sea, Chinese fighters often meet F16 on maritime missions.
> 
> Why doesn't Pakistan consider replacing the Mirage with F16?


I think mirages are heavily doctored to carry indigenous SOMs, CMs etc. As for F16s, PAF needs to have the permission to have both structural and hw/sw changes like the way Turkey has....

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## Beast

MH.Yang said:


> F16 is an excellent multi-purpose fighter, it is different from J10C which is a pure air superiority fighter.
> 
> In the South China Sea and East China Sea, Chinese fighters often meet F16 on maritime missions.
> 
> Why doesn't Pakistan consider replacing the Mirage with F16?


Becos US denied more F-16 for PAF, plus the price tag of one F-16V/Blk 52 replaced one Mirage is impossible given the budget of PAF. Finally, F-16 is full of string with even PAF using is as self defence against India is being question by US. Given the economy power of India and their alliance against China. US is unlikely to side with Pakistan with India more to gain from US. 

JF-17 is the one to replace all Mirage III. F-16 can be used as air superiority given its excellent agility.
What F-16 lacks will be high attitude performance.

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## Ghessan

SIPRA said:


> Next, it will be 10CJ, when Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain will come forward.


nobody could ever guess what he murmured in his mouth

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## araz

Beast said:


> Becos US denied more F-16 for PAF, plus the price tag of one F-16V/Blk 52 replaced one Mirage is impossible given the budget of PAF. Finally, F-16 is full of string with even PAF using is as self defence against India is being question by US. Given the economy power of India and their alliance against China. US is unlikely to side with Pakistan with India more to gain from US.
> 
> JF-17 is the one to replace all Mirage III. F-16 can be used as air superiority given its excellent agility.
> What F-16 lacks will be high attitude performance.


I dont think the 16s require high altitude performance. With J10s multirole useage of F16s can be secured as they are currently our top platform for the hi aspect of CAP. THE 16would be ideal f9r SEAD -DEAD once freed up.
A

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## Riz



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## The Eagle

SIPRA said:


> Next, it will be 10CJ



Naah.... but Chief Justice is on the mind every time.



Bleek said:


> According to some members we have tried but were denied



Not denied but CSF is the issue here. They wanted PAF to pay in full, I think.



Beast said:


> Becos US denied more F-16 for PAF



Answered as above



Beast said:


> Finally, F-16 is full of string with even PAF using is as self defence against India is being question by US.



No questions asked. Please update the info.

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## Flight of falcon

Why would USA care or give a shit about what Pakistan does to India?There is no restriction on use or secret deactivation chip. 

Why would USA destroy the reputation of their excellent machines to protect a third rated airforce like India’s ? 

They love everytime F16 performs well…. It brings them billions of dollars of additional sales. 

Am I the only one to notice that F16s have got enormous amounts of new sales since we spanked India ??? Did we hear any sale of Su30??

Now imagine if USA was to say publicly hey Pakistan you can’t cross the border or fire AMRAAM on Sangis….. who would buy their planes ???

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## MH.Yang

Flight of falcon said:


> Why would USA care or give a shit about what Pakistan does to India?There is no restriction on use or secret deactivation chip.
> 
> Why would USA destroy the reputation of their excellent machines to protect a third rated airforce like India’s ?
> 
> They love everytime F16 performs well…. It brings them billions of dollars of additional sales.
> 
> Am I the only one to notice that F16s have got enormous amounts of new sales since we spanked India ??? Did we hear any sale of Su30??
> 
> Now imagine if USA was to say publicly hey Pakistan you can’t cross the border or fire AMRAAM on Sangis….. who would buy their planes ???



Because USA withdrew its troops from Afghanistan, Pakistan has no use for USA, and you are an Islamic country, USA (Israel) does not want Islamic countries to possess nuclear weapons.

USA needs India to balance China. India is valuable to USA.

As for F16, Pakistan and India cannot damage its reputation. Your threat is meaningless.

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## Proud 2 Be a Pakistani

In fact second time, last time during Senegal ambassador visit to AHQ.


spectregunship said:


> From today's FM's visit to AHQ... I think this is the first time J10 model has been shown by the ACM's side... there is also mention of PAF Modernisation Program in the official text...
> View attachment 811518


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## akramishaqkhan

Big_bud said:


> So basically your uncle used public money for personal enjoyment? They fired whole rounds for fun! Amazing. Idk under which law army officers do that? And under which head those expenses are counted? It is pretty frequent, I know that and should be discouraged.


For those with limited military background will not understand military culture. It is very different from civilian culture. So having your kid sit on a tank or stand next to an artillery gun and take a shot is not wasting funds. These weapons and their men are constantly tested. And likelihood is that a child standing there getting some thrills is not adding to the exchequer bill. Weapons and rounds are constantly tested. And just clicking on a trigger is 5% of what goes into firing that weapon without a failure. So though the kid fired it, the crew had to run through their motions to make sure the weapon operated. That training is essential.
The part that is truly disappointing is that less and less kids like us with this level of experience and access go on to join the military. Military in large measure is about tradition, culture and generational involvement. It is this multigenerational involvement that keep the institution strong otherwise the stock becomes weak. That for me is the bigger tragedy here than a kid taking a shot. Also this is exactly why our fathers and uncles do this to us, so we would develop the love and joy for the arms. When we don’t join their efforts and our obligations both fall short.

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## Taimoor Khan

MH.Yang said:


> Why doesn't Pakistan consider replacing the Mirage with F16?




Because of this strategic weapons they carry:









F16s cannot be upgraded to carry these babies.

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## mingle

Sheik Rasheed said today PM maybe Cheif guest at induction ceremony before 23rd March

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## kursed

Hope you guys are ready.

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## Bleek

kursed said:


> Hope you guys are ready.


When should we be ready by

Any date...


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## rAli

kursed said:


> Hope you guys are ready.


Have some mercy on our souls and post the pics ...Ab kia secret hay?😉

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## Bleek

The Eagle said:


> Not denied but CSF is the issue here. They wanted PAF to pay in full, I think.


For F-16, I was told by a credible member here that the F-35 was denied


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## kursed

rAli said:


> Have some mercy on our souls and post the pics ...Ab kia secret hay?😉


There’s not much time left. Pics would be shared by just about everyone as it’s. Let them land first.

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## Reichmarshal

akramishaqkhan said:


> For those with limited military background will not understand military culture. It is very different from civilian culture. So having your kid sit on a tank or stand next to an artillery gun and take a shot is not wasting funds. These weapons and their men are constantly tested. And likelihood is that a child standing there getting some thrills is not adding to the exchequer bill. Weapons and rounds are constantly tested. And just clicking on a trigger is 5% of what goes into firing that weapon without a failure. So though the kid fired it, the crew had to run through their motions to make sure the weapon operated. That training is essential.
> The part that is truly disappointing is that less and less kids like us with this level of experience and access go on to join the military. Military in large measure is about tradition, culture and generational involvement. It is this multigenerational involvement that keep the institution strong otherwise the stock becomes weak. That for me is the bigger tragedy here than a kid taking a shot. Also this is exactly why our fathers and uncles do this to us, so we would develop the love and joy for the arms. When we don’t join their efforts and our obligations both fall short.


you brother have a point but on a personal level the tradition lives on n is very strong in our family. the fact that it's our fifth-gen now in the army testifies to that fact.

From my analysis, we are entering a period of total wars, where every man, woman, child will have to fight for their survival.
baki ALLAH knows best.


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## akramishaqkhan

Reichmarshal said:


> you brother have a point but on a personal level the tradition lives on n is very strong in our family. the fact that it's our fifth-gen now in the army testifies to that fact.
> 
> From my analysis, we are entering a period of total wars, where every man, woman, child will have to fight for their survival.
> baki ALLAH knows best.


Yaar you are a better man than I am. I come from a multi-generational family of military men. Highly decorated and given the highest charge in this nation and throughout all rungs of the system. I have unfortunately seen an erosion in my and the younger generation. They rather go off to the UK or USA for further studies (sometime prodded by the very men in uniform), or do a banking job etc. It is strange, hoping this idiocy is just our fam, but I do see this beyond us as well. Proud that you have managed to maintain it.

Anyone remember Run Joe playing on PTV in the afternoon during the early days of Zia's martial law?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

akramishaqkhan said:


> Yaar you are a better man than I am. I come from a multi-generational family of military men. Highly decorated and given the highest charge in this nation and throughout all rungs of the system. I have unfortunately seen an erosion in my and the younger generation. They rather go off to the UK or USA for further studies (sometime prodded by the very men in uniform), or do a banking job etc. It is strange, hoping this idiocy is just our fam, but I do see this beyond us as well. Proud that you have managed to maintain it.
> 
> Anyone remember Run Joe playing on PTV in the afternoon during the early days of Zia's martial law?


tbh I think the general lack of progress in Pakistan likely encourages many officers to steer their kids to look abroad. In fact, many officers retire and leave Pakistan to embark on that very journey. In turn, their kids (e.g., myself) are largely disconnected from pursuing military service in Pakistan. If the country had been better and people stayed, I'm sure we would've seen multi-generational engagement.

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## Reichmarshal

akramishaqkhan said:


> Yaar you are a better man than I am. I come from a multi-generational family of military men. Highly decorated and given the highest charge in this nation and throughout all rungs of the system. I have unfortunately seen an erosion in my and the younger generation. They rather go off to the UK or USA for further studies (sometime prodded by the very men in uniform), or do a banking job etc. It is strange, hoping this idiocy is just our fam, but I do see this beyond us as well. Proud that you have managed to maintain it.
> 
> Anyone remember Run Joe playing on PTV in the afternoon during the early days of Zia's martial law?


no brother its not about being better or worse as this is not a competition. I think the reason for that is more to do with the fact that ppl move on with the expansion of one's horizon. Plus the army has also decided to expand its stock n move away, some wt from its traditional recruiting grounds.
now we see lots of ppl from sind n even baluchistan in the army which is good for the army and country as a whole

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## Reichmarshal

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh I think the general lack of progress in Pakistan likely encourages many officers to steer their kids to look abroad. In fact, many officers retire and leave Pakistan to embark on that very journey. In turn, their kids (e.g., myself) are largely disconnected from pursuing military service in Pakistan. If the country had been better and people stayed, I'm sure we would've seen multi-generational engagement.


Actually it is the general abundance in progress in Pakistan and the expansion in horizon that we see ppl move away from traditional jobs. 
The ppl who decide to move out of Pakistan is not even a fraction the over whelming majority still live here, not because they have no other option but because the choose to.
N nothing wrong with the country its just some ppl who bring it bad name


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## MastanKhan

akramishaqkhan said:


> For those with limited military background will not understand military culture. It is very different from civilian culture. So having your kid sit on a tank or stand next to an artillery gun and take a shot is not wasting funds. These weapons and their men are constantly tested. And likelihood is that a child standing there getting some thrills is not adding to the exchequer bill. Weapons and rounds are constantly tested. And just clicking on a trigger is 5% of what goes into firing that weapon without a failure. So though the kid fired it, the crew had to run through their motions to make sure the weapon operated. That training is essential.
> The part that is truly disappointing is that less and less kids like us with this level of experience and access go on to join the military. Military in large measure is about tradition, culture and generational involvement. It is this multigenerational involvement that keep the institution strong otherwise the stock becomes weak. That for me is the bigger tragedy here than a kid taking a shot. Also this is exactly why our fathers and uncles do this to us, so we would develop the love and joy for the arms. When we don’t join their efforts and our obligations both fall short.



Hi,

If the kids did not follow into their father's footsteps---there would be no soldiers.

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## Aesterix

I am still doubtful there will be any participation by J 10C in PAF Colours on the 22rd March parade.

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## MastanKhan

Reichmarshal said:


> no brother its not about being better or worse as this is not a competition. I think the reason for that is more to do with the fact that ppl move on with the expansion of one's horizon. Plus the army has also decided to expand its stock n move away, some wt from its traditional recruiting grounds.
> now we see lots of ppl from sind n even baluchistan in the army which is good for the army and country as a whole



Hi,

Well then there will come a time that the kids of those sindhis and baluchis would be puling the trigger of the big guns.

It don't change son---it is just a matter of time when the children of new recruits follow the footsteps of their fathers.

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## Reichmarshal

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Well then there will come a time that the kids of those sindhis and baluchis would be puling the trigger of the big guns.
> 
> It don't change son---it is just a matter of time when the children of new recruits follow the footsteps of their fathers.


Sindhi now we see second gen. Officers n enlisted men. Their 2 three star gen. Officer's in PA today.....excellent work done by PA starting in the 80s, paying dividends today.
Baluchistan initiative was taken by gen. Kiyani. N right now their around 40000 baluch officers n men in PA alone.

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## The Eagle

Bleek said:


> For F-16, I was told by a credible member here that the F-35 was denied



My point was about F-16 being denied.


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## Big_bud

akramishaqkhan said:


> For those with limited military background will not understand military culture. It is very different from civilian culture. So having your kid sit on a tank or stand next to an artillery gun and take a shot is not wasting funds. These weapons and their men are constantly tested. And likelihood is that a child standing there getting some thrills is not adding to the exchequer bill. Weapons and rounds are constantly tested. And just clicking on a trigger is 5% of what goes into firing that weapon without a failure. So though the kid fired it, the crew had to run through their motions to make sure the weapon operated. That training is essential.
> The part that is truly disappointing is that less and less kids like us with this level of experience and access go on to join the military. Military in large measure is about tradition, culture and generational involvement. It is this multigenerational involvement that keep the institution strong otherwise the stock becomes weak. That for me is the bigger tragedy here than a kid taking a shot. Also this is exactly why our fathers and uncles do this to us, so we would develop the love and joy for the arms. When we don’t join their efforts and our obligations both fall short.



I have brigadiers, colonels, PAF engineers, pilots and more in my family. Such activities for family fun should be avoided, if the ammunition is to be used because of a use by date its better to properly make it a public PR acitivity which everyone can join.

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## GriffinsRule

Aesterix said:


> I am still doubtful there will be any participation by J 10C in PAF Colours on the 22rd March parade.


Same


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## Beast

Aesterix said:


> I am still doubtful there will be any participation by J 10C in PAF Colours on the 22rd March parade.


Do you mean the J-10C not joining PAF service or just the J-10C will not participate in the March parade?


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## tphuang

Bleek said:


> For F-16, I was told by a credible member here that the F-35 was denied


Of course F-35 is denied. The only Arabic country that was give permission to F-35 was UAE. They had to establish formal relationship with Israel in order to get that. Even so, so many conditions were placed on UAE that they ended up purchasing Rafale instead. Given Pakistan's close relationship with China, why would US allow export of F-35s to Pakistan? In fact, when will US allow F-35 export to any Muslim countries? Pakistan can sit around and wait a few decades for F-35 or it can start talking to China now about FC-31/J-35 export down the line. Since it's not developed yet, this won't be ready for a while. But as they've shown with J-20, they should be able to develop 5th generation aircraft on schedule.

Based on my calculation, China could allow FC-31 export to its closest allies by the end of this decade. That seems to me the only realistic 5th generation fighter jet option for Pakistan. Su-57 might be available by then for export, but it's only a little more stealthy than something like Rafale. If Pakistan ends up with FC-31 and IAF ends up with Su-57 and MCA, Pakistan will have a huge advantage.

I'm not saying China is Pakistan's solution for everything. But given how fast it's military industrial complex is improving, there is a reason why Pakistan military is going for Chinese solutions all 3 services.

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## Raider 21

tphuang said:


> Of course F-35 is denied. The only Arabic country that was give permission to F-35 was UAE. They had to establish formal relationship with Israel in order to get that. Even so, so many conditions were placed on UAE that they ended up purchasing Rafale instead. Given Pakistan's close relationship with China, why would US allow export of F-35s to Pakistan? In fact, when will US allow F-35 export to any Muslim countries? Pakistan can sit around and wait a few decades for F-35 or it can start talking to China now about FC-31/J-35 export down the line. Since it's not developed yet, this won't be ready for a while. But as they've shown with J-20, they should be able to develop 5th generation aircraft on schedule.
> 
> Based on my calculation, China could allow FC-31 export to its closest allies by the end of this decade. That seems to me the only realistic 5th generation fighter jet option for Pakistan. Su-57 might be available by then for export, but it's only a little more stealthy than something like Rafale. If Pakistan ends up with FC-31 and IAF ends up with Su-57 and MCA, Pakistan will have a huge advantage.
> 
> I'm not saying China is Pakistan's solution for everything. But given how fast it's military industrial complex is improving, there is a reason why Pakistan military is going for Chinese solutions all 3 services.


Understand this, the F-35 deal and Rafale deal are separate for UAEAF. Turkey was also initially under the F-35 blanket, as a "Muslim" country.


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## tphuang

Raider 21 said:


> Understand this, the F-35 deal and Rafale deal are separate for UAEAF. Turkey was also initially under the F-35 blanket, as a "Muslim" country.


Turkey is a NATO ally.

UAE found the terms of F-35 discussion so onerous that It suspended talks for induction of the aircraft.








UAE told the U.S. it will suspend talks on F-35 jets -Emirati official


The United Arab Emirates has informed the United States that it will suspend discussions to acquire F-35 fighter jets, a UAE official said on Tuesday, part of a $23 billion deal that also includes drones and other advanced munitions.




www.reuters.com




Again, UAE did not even get a chance to negotiate for F-35 until it normalized relations with Israel.


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## Shotgunner51

tphuang said:


> Based on my calculation, China could allow *FC-31* export to its closest allies by the end of this decade. That seems to me the only realistic 5th generation fighter jet option for Pakistan. Su-57 might be available by then for export, but it's only a little more stealthy than something like Rafale. If Pakistan ends up with FC-31 and IAF ends up with Su-57 and MCA, Pakistan will have a huge advantage.


Based on my observation FC-31 was never a land-based jet nor was intended for PLAAF consumption, it's a naval jet from day one. We can continue FC-31 discussion in the following thread.









J-XY - maybe J-35 - next generation carrier-borne fighter


Very interesting development. If this bird manages to get fifth-generation avionics, genuine radar-absorbent material, airframe redesigns to reduce its RCS, and a new suite of AAMs, it might potentially come close to matching the performance of the AMCA in the far future. Not a bad start for a...



defence.pk





So on topic, PAF's next gen option is not confined to FC-31. There's a possibility that Turkey gets re-admitted into the F-35 program, and so is Pakistan (subject to India-US relationship). Other possible options are like Pakistan joining the TFX program (converging with AZM), PAC going solo on AZM, or PAC-SAC joint venture in land-based FC-31 (like JF-17 model).

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## Beast

Raider 21 said:


> Understand this, the F-35 deal and Rafale deal are separate for UAEAF. Turkey was also initially under the F-35 blanket, as a "Muslim" country.


Turkey is actually secular.

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## raja786

I don't think there's any done deal between Pakistan and China over J-10c as of yet, maybe in future or near future but nothing is signed. On 23rd March surely whole Squadron of Chinese J10s participating and that's all about it. Maybe some Chinese hardware will be stationed in different "areas". 
And I got this info from a Rickshaw driver.

I would say keep an eye out on Pm visit to Russia and چیف visit to USA.

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## Aesterix

Beast said:


> Do you mean the J-10C not joining PAF service or just the J-10C will not participate in the March parade?


Personally I am doubtful about both.
Apart from Sheikh Rasheed remarks, no other source has said it so far.

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## Aesterix

OK.... sheeda talli is adamant.
He said it again, and said it correctly this time.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492433801544441856

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## Beast

Aesterix said:


> Personally I am doubtful about both.
> Apart from Sheikh Rasheed remarks, no other source has said it so far.


I can be sure the deal for J-10C is on for PAF. But whether it will be on for 23th March Parade is another thing.

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## Bleek

Beast said:


> I can be sure the deal for J-10C is on for PAF. But whether it will be on for 23th March Parade is another thing.


In the clip above, Sheikh Rashid says they may even induct it before the 23rd

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## Beast

Bleek said:


> In the clip above, Sheikh Rashid says they may even induct it before the 23rd


According from Chinese source, A team of Chinese specialist on Chinese J-10C ejection seat team were send to Pakistan to train personnel. So I can be sure, J-10C deal is on.
Hope they can induct it soon.

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## The Terminator

Flight of falcon said:


> Why would USA care or give a shit about what Pakistan does to India?There is no restriction on use or secret deactivation chip.
> 
> Why would USA destroy the reputation of their excellent machines to protect a third rated airforce like India’s ?
> 
> They love everytime F16 performs well…. It brings them billions of dollars of additional sales.
> 
> Am I the only one to notice that F16s have got enormous amounts of new sales since we spanked India ??? Did we hear any sale of Su30??
> 
> Now imagine if USA was to say publicly hey Pakistan you can’t cross the border or fire AMRAAM on Sangis….. who would buy their planes ???


Lol what you dont realize is that US exports it's weapons just to make money, but they aren't supposed to be used in active conflict or aggressive strikes. As per Human rights council of US, it's the US only who have the rights to attack, fire missiles, turn cities into ruins and kill people or the right of a few states fighting for the US cause can do that. Everyone else who dares to aim and fire a single missile is savage killer, an enemy of peace, freedom and prosperity. So all those other countries deserve to face severe economic and military sanctions.

Those sanghis at least on paper are now their allies in a quadrilateral agreement. All those sanghis have to do is to prove their worth by striking Chinese interests hard, it could also be some through Pakistan by sabotaging CPEC- the flagship project of the Chinese global BRI. They would have to show some achievement to really redeem their perks of being a Frontline Quad ally.


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## Aesterix

Beast said:


> According from Chinese source, A team of Chinese specialist on Chinese J-10C ejection seat team were send to Pakistan to train personnel. So I can be sure, J-10C deal is on.
> Hope they can induct it soon.


Are you saying no Martin Baker in J-10C? 
Instead a Chinese ejection seat? 🤔


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## The Terminator

Raider 21 said:


> Understand this, the F-35 deal and Rafale deal are separate for UAEAF. Turkey was also initially under the F-35 blanket, as a "Muslim" country.


But Turkey wasn't in control of the "Patriot" umbrella due to being a somewhat western Muslim despite being a vital NATO ally. But Saudis and other Arabs were. Same goes for Pakistan having no access to modern gunship helicopters despite being a Frontline ally against war on terror but I was really jealous to see the Apache hanging outside the Ministry of Defense headquarters in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia while our outdated cobras were struggling to target militants in tribal areas close to Afghanistan

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## The Terminator

Aesterix said:


> OK.... sheeda talli is adamant.
> He said it again, and said it correctly this time.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492433801544441856


If that's a secret as is the norm with our armed forces, then it's a badly kept secret. Govt through Sheikh Rasheed is relentlessly utilizing this induction and 23rd March parade for their own political milage and to keep wraps on the core issues of incapabilities and governance issues of the current cabinet.

God forbid that time comes just like India, that our Govt starts scapegoating the military for every Govt incapability issue. Just what they did with a totally avoidable change of command of ISI notification.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

March 23 is approaching fast the anticipation buildup to see J10 in Pakistan


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## Jinn Baba

Aesterix said:


> OK.... sheeda talli is adamant.
> He said it again, and said it correctly this time.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492433801544441856



25 J10Cs coming, induction by PM to occur earlier, should be no doubt left now. Sheikh Rasheed may be a cartoon character but he's still Interior Minister, no way could he be so mistaken.


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## maverick1977

why a figure of 25 Jets. Doesn't add up!


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## alphapak

maverick1977 said:


> why a figure of 25 Jets. Doesn't add up!



The order is for 36 and this is the first batch that will arrive. I don't think
this will stop at 36, in future number could go to 100.

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## Dreamer.

maverick1977 said:


> why a figure of 25 Jets. Doesn't add up!


Actually there's no surety that 25 is the number of jets.


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## Abid123

MH.Yang said:


> J10c was first exposed on the Internet in January 2015.
> In August 2017, J10c performed at the PLA military parade for the first time.
> In April 2018, the PLA released the video of J10c performing combat duty flight mission for the first time.


So the J-10C is quite new for the PLAAF also.

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## MH.Yang

Abid123 said:


> So the J-10C is quite new for the PLAAF also.


More Than This.
From 2004 to 2015, only 308 J10A&J10S were manufactured in 11 years.
J10C has manufactured 700 aircraft in six years from 2015 to 2021. That shows that PLA is satisfied with J10C performance.

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## Khan vilatey

Ladies and gentlemen who wants to give some exciting details, 

1) will j-10c fly from China straight over skurdu and on to chaklala? Or will they be carried in the belly of some y-20s and/or il-76 

2) what will be the flight path in either case?

3) if the fly near Indian occupied Kashmir will these jets be armed with pl-15 and pl-10 …..

4) will the Indian radar operators shit in their pants when these jets fly near soon to be liberated Pakistani territory ?


5) this may have already happened and @The Eagle eluded To this in his post. He has connections so hopping if this is not a state secret he could give us some breaking news. I remember from the old PDF that a member worked on the link-17 , I believe he said he was a horse in the transformation of a nation, maybe he could answer. 

6) should we start a new thread on this ?

7 ) can some confirm my math , 36 new j-10c, 12 new jf-17 block 3 makes 47 aircraft , does this mean this is the 50 aircraft the media is speaking about 


Waiting with glee, a smile and anticipation for answers 

Khan Vilatey

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## cssniper

Khan vilatey said:


> Ladies and gentlemen who wants to give some exciting details,
> 
> 3) if the fly near Indian occupied Kashmir will these jets be armed with pl-15 and pl-10 …..



In my opinion, extra payloads could significantly reduce flying range of the plane. 
Their safety could be watched by local air divisions from both sides.


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## KaiserX

Khan vilatey said:


> Ladies and gentlemen who wants to give some exciting details,
> 
> 1) will j-10c fly from China straight over skurdu and on to chaklala? Or will they be carried in the belly of some y-20s and/or il-76
> 
> 2) what will be the flight path in either case?
> 
> 3) if the fly near Indian occupied Kashmir will these jets be armed with pl-15 and pl-10 …..
> 
> 4) will the Indian radar operators shit in their pants when these jets fly near soon to be liberated Pakistani territory ?
> 
> 
> 5) this may have already happened and @The Eagle eluded To this in his post. He has connections so hopping if this is not a state secret he could give us some breaking news. I remember from the old PDF that a member worked on the link-17 , I believe he said he was a horse in the transformation of a nation, maybe he could answer.
> 
> 6) should we start a new thread on this ?
> 
> 7 ) can some confirm my math , 36 new j-10c, 12 new jf-17 block 3 makes 47 aircraft , does this mean this is the 50 aircraft the media is speaking about
> 
> 
> Waiting with glee, a smile and anticipation for answers
> 
> Khan Vilatey



12 new JF17B3s were rolled by by dec 2021. By EOY 2022 we should easily produce another 24. So total being roughly around 30 JF17B3s and 25 J10C minimum will be received by the PAF in 2022. We should fully phase out the F7s by EOY. 

ROSE Mirages will only remain as dedicated strike fighters/anti ship missile carriers. Similar to IAF jaguars.


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## baqai

Khan vilatey said:


> Ladies and gentlemen who wants to give some exciting details,
> 
> 1) will j-10c fly from China straight over skurdu and on to chaklala? Or will they be carried in the belly of some y-20s and/or il-76
> 
> 2) what will be the flight path in either case?
> 
> 3) if the fly near Indian occupied Kashmir will these jets be armed with pl-15 and pl-10 …..
> 
> 4) will the Indian radar operators shit in their pants when these jets fly near soon to be liberated Pakistani territory ?
> 
> 
> 5) this may have already happened and @The Eagle eluded To this in his post. He has connections so hopping if this is not a state secret he could give us some breaking news. I remember from the old PDF that a member worked on the link-17 , I believe he said he was a horse in the transformation of a nation, maybe he could answer.
> 
> 6) should we start a new thread on this ?
> 
> 7 ) can some confirm my math , 36 new j-10c, 12 new jf-17 block 3 makes 47 aircraft , does this mean this is the 50 aircraft the media is speaking about
> 
> 
> Waiting with glee, a smile and anticipation for answers
> 
> Khan Vilatey



i believe they are already here, for quiet some time if i may add so (again it's MY believe not something which my uncle's secret lover's mamu's bhanja in Airforce who told, so take it with a pinch of salt)

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## NA71

*AL-31FN *

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## Deino

MH.Yang said:


> More Than This.
> From 2004 to 2015, only 300 J10A were manufactured in 11 years.
> J10C has manufactured 700 aircraft in six years from 2015 to 2021. That shows that PLA is satisfied with J10C performance.




Are you sure with 700 J-10C?? AFAIK we are indeed in Batch 07 if not already batch 08, but these batches are surely not of 100 aircraft each.


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## Beast

Rumour this J-10C for PAF maybe from existing stock of PLAAF given the urgency of the order.

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## MH.Yang

Deino said:


> Are you sure with 700 J-10C?? AFAIK we are indeed in Batch 07 if not already batch 08, but these batches are surely not of 100 aircraft each.



The information comes from the military channel of Hong Kong Phoenix Network in May 2021.

My information usually comes from Chinese media, not internal information of PLA. I can't guarantee the correctness of the information.






来腾讯视频看更多热门视频







m.v.qq.com

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## MH.Yang

Deino said:


> but these batches are surely not of 100 aircraft each.



I don't know how many planes are in a batch, but I've seen pictures of J10C No. 171. 
It means that it is the 71st aircraft in the first batch.

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## satyamev

We are all waiting eagerly for the j10 to reach Pakistan.
The flyover should be with complete missile load . That will be a incredible sight.
Was reading that the Pakistan version will be called f10p. What's the difference from the Chinese verion ? Engine? Avionics ? Armaments ?


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## luciferdd

MH.Yang said:


> The information comes from the military channel of Hong Kong Phoenix Network in May 2021.
> 
> My information usually comes from Chinese media, not internal information of PLA. I can't guarantee the correctness of the information.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 来腾讯视频看更多热门视频
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> m.v.qq.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 815338


Sorry,but HK's military news=fake news

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## sneakerspark

NA71 said:


> *AL-31FN *


Huh?


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## Shabi1

Khan vilatey said:


> Ladies and gentlemen who wants to give some exciting details,
> 
> 1) will j-10c fly from China straight over skurdu and on to chaklala? Or will they be carried in the belly of some y-20s and/or il-76
> 
> 2) what will be the flight path in either case?
> 
> 3) if the fly near Indian occupied Kashmir will these jets be armed with pl-15 and pl-10 …..
> 
> 4) will the Indian radar operators shit in their pants when these jets fly near soon to be liberated Pakistani territory ?
> 
> 
> 5) this may have already happened and @The Eagle eluded To this in his post. He has connections so hopping if this is not a state secret he could give us some breaking news. I remember from the old PDF that a member worked on the link-17 , I believe he said he was a horse in the transformation of a nation, maybe he could answer.
> 
> 6) should we start a new thread on this ?
> 
> 7 ) can some confirm my math , 36 new j-10c, 12 new jf-17 block 3 makes 47 aircraft , does this mean this is the 50 aircraft the media is speaking about
> 
> 
> Waiting with glee, a smile and anticipation for answers
> 
> Khan Vilatey


Some can be answered by common logic.

1) will j-10c fly from China straight over skurdu and on to chaklala? Or will they be carried in the belly of some y-20s and/or il-76

They will do a ferry flight on own. With IL-78s or other transports carrying spares and weapons.

2) what will be the flight path in either case?

Will be same as what PAF takes to reach China, I think fly north once in Chinese airspace proceed East to Chengdu with multiple stops on way. Avoid IOK.

3) if the fly near Indian occupied Kashmir will these jets be armed with pl-15 and pl-10 …..

Since on ferry flight they will be unarmed loadout would be maxed out with fuel tanks

4) will the Indian radar operators shit in their pants when these jets fly near soon to be liberated Pakistani territory ?

Yes they will soil their chaddas, but aircraft will keep their distance from Indian territory, its a ferry flight.


5) this may have already happened and @The Eagle eluded To this in his post. He has connections so hopping if this is not a state secret he could give us some breaking news. I remember from the old PDF that a member worked on the link-17 , I believe he said he was a horse in the transformation of a nation, maybe he could answer.

Link 17 is a must for any PAF platform.

6) should we start a new thread on this ?

Link 17 I doubt anyone will have any valuable information to share and even if they do it should rather be kept hush, some matters dont need to be discussed in open forums as they are sensitive.

7 ) can some confirm my math , 36 new j-10c, 12 new jf-17 block 3 makes 47 aircraft , does this mean this is the 50 aircraft the media is speaking about

Don't trust media info till 23rd march flypast reveal and official induction ceremony

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## Deino

MH.Yang said:


> I don't know how many planes are in a batch, but I've seen pictures of J10C No. 171.
> It means that it is the 71st aircraft in the first batch.



Really? could you please share this image showing no. 171?? 

By my information Batch 01 was the J-10C and the first J-10C batch was in fact Batch 02 with cn. 0275 being the highest number spotted.

So indeed, that Batch 02 was substantially (76 ac) larger but from all I know and based on the number of units converted it fits quite nicely, the regular size is about 40 per batch, so that there are now 76 Batch 02 plus 40 each within Batch 03-07 (=5x 40 = 200) ... so roughly 270+ J-10C, but surely not 700.



MH.Yang said:


> The information comes from the military channel of Hong Kong Phoenix Network in May 2021.
> 
> My information usually comes from Chinese media, not internal information of PLA. I can't guarantee the correctness of the information.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 来腾讯视频看更多热门视频
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> m.v.qq.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 815338



IMO clearly wrong and faked!

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## Zarvan

Scorpiooo said:


> That is for sure now .. just saying sheikh jee sheekhiee statement


Yes we are having 23rd March Parade INSHALLAH. Covid cases already are going down.


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## cssniper

Beast said:


> Rumour this J-10C for PAF maybe from existing stock of PLAAF given the urgency of the order.


Clearly PAF knows that IAF is getting Rafale, and the J-10C deal must been settled years ago. There is plenty time for the manufacturing.

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## lcloo

Aesterix said:


> Personally I am doubtful about both.
> Apart from Sheikh Rasheed remarks, no other source has said it so far.


The August First acrobatic Display team J10Y has only 12 aircraft in total. It just does not match the 25 aircraft that were supposed to participate in the flyby display.

Also Chinese brigades are divided into a flight of 4 aircraft or a multiple of 4, i.e. 8 aircraft, 16 aircraft and 24 aircraft, 28 aircraft etc. And it is next to impossible for China to send a whole brigade of their J10C to Pakistan to participate for flyby display.

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## lcloo

MH.Yang said:


> The information comes from the military channel of Hong Kong Phoenix Network in May 2021.
> 
> My information usually comes from Chinese media, not internal information of PLA. I can't guarantee the correctness of the information.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 来腾讯视频看更多热门视频
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> m.v.qq.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 815338


My interpretation would be 又一批次歼-10C亮相，产量直逼700架 =
“Another J10C production batch appeared, production numbers close to 700 aircraft."

It is not clear that the 700 referred to all J10A/B/C/S/Y or just J10C.

Considering the smaller numbers made in earlier batches of J10C, to the increasingly larger numbers in batch 7 and 8, it still does not add up to 700 J10C in total.

A rational deduction would be 700 total for all variants of J10

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## MH.Yang

Deino said:


> Really? could you please share this image showing no. 171??
> 
> By my information Batch 01 was the J-10C and the first J-10C batch was in fact Batch 02 with cn. 0275 being the highest number spotted.
> 
> So indeed, that Batch 02 was substantially (76 ac) larger but from all I know and based on the number of units converted it fits quite nicely, the regular size is about 40 per batch, so that there are now 76 Batch 02 plus 40 each within Batch 03-07 (=5x 40 = 200) ... so roughly 270+ J-10C, but surely not 700.
> 
> 
> 
> IMO clearly wrong and faked!


I have the pictures of the first batch No. 51 J10C here.
Now I go to the forum I used to browse to find the pictures of No. 71. I didn't save it at that time.
One moment please.









lcloo said:


> The August First acrobatic Display team J10Y has only 12 aircraft in total. It just does not match the 25 aircraft that were supposed to participate in the flyby display.
> 
> Also Chinese brigades are divided into a flight of 4 aircraft or a multiple of 4, i.e. 8 aircraft, 16 aircraft and 24 aircraft, 28 aircraft etc. And it is next to impossible for China to send a whole brigade of their J10C to Pakistan to participate for flyby display.


As far as I know, there are five additional aircraft in each PLAAF aviation regimental.

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## Deino

MH.Yang said:


> I have the pictures of the first batch No. 51 J10C here.
> Now I go to the forum I used to browse to find the pictures of No. 71. I didn't save it at that time.
> One moment please.
> 
> View attachment 815353
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I know, there are five additional aircraft in each PLAAF aviation regimental.




Thanks a lot, but as I noted, no. 151 is a J-10B from Batch 01 ... however here is J-10C no. 0275 so I expect there are at least 76 J-10C in this batch.

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## RealNapster

MH.Yang said:


> More Than This.
> From 2004 to 2015, only 308 J10A&J10S were manufactured in 11 years.
> J10C has manufactured 700 aircraft in six years from 2015 to 2021. That shows that PLA is satisfied with J10C performance.



But according to Wikipedia (which I know is not a good source but still) total of 488+ J-10 (all versions) were produced till 2020. Your estimate put the total number around 1000.

Edit : ok I read the later posts.


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## araz

cssniper said:


> In my opinion, extra payloads could significantly reduce flying range of the plane.
> Their safety could be watched by local air divisions from both sides.


Agreed. Additionally fighters on delivery flights do not carry arms. Flight routes will be planned in advance and notifications issued. Normally previously F7s have been delivered by ship but now , it remains to be-seen.
A



KaiserX said:


> 12 new JF17B3s were rolled by by dec 2021. By EOY 2022 we should easily produce another 24. So total being roughly around 30 JF17B3s and 25 J10C minimum will be received by the PAF in 2022. We should fully phase out the F7s by EOY.
> 
> ROSE Mirages will only remain as dedicated strike fighters/anti ship missile carriers. Similar to IAF jaguars.


Production projections are for 12 aircrafts per year so expect the count to go up to 24 by the end of 22. The only reason it might change is threat perception. Otherwise, I suspect the rest of the assembly maybe used for foreign orders.


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## Goenitz

Reichmarshal said:


> Kiyani. N right now their around 40000 baluch officers n men in PA alone.


That was his biggest achievement IMO, by relaxing some merit. As we have have now 40k Pak 'ambassadors' in Baluchistan. Considering every man has 4-5 family members, and 15 extended family members it is around 0.5 million people who get Islamabad narrative to their home. Though I was born in Baluchistan but my upbringing is in Punjab. Never in my life I saw a Balchi as Nan bai, cobbler, fellow student, etc. Just one in my MSc in Italy, who came on HEC.

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## SQ8

araz said:


> Agreed. Additionally fighters on delivery flights do not carry arms. Flight routes will be planned in advance and notifications issued. Normally previously F7s have been delivered by ship but now , it remains to be-seen.
> A
> 
> 
> Production projections are for 12 aircrafts per year so expect the count to go up to 24 by the end of 22. The only reason it might change is threat perception. Otherwise, I suspect the rest of the assembly maybe used for foreign orders.


That aerial route is still fairly dangerous in terms of flying over some very desolate and remote terrain that leaves few places for a safe recovery in case of an emergency. The Chinese are doing their best to build infrastructure fast but even now an ejection in that area means likely a long search and rescue.

It would be a lot of fun to see the 23rd March parade and no J-10C. Definitely would see a lot of hate comments from the PDF Muj party.

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## adelphi

Khan vilatey said:


> 4) will the Indian radar operators shit in their pants when these jets fly near soon to be liberated Pakistani territory ?


I like your enthusiasm over 25 jets and soon to be liberated occupied lands. But beaware we are entering another era where Kamra 2.0 is possible, the signs are already there. Nonetheless it's a welcome addition.
Sheikh's excitement is understanable, it's his job to creat excitement but the same Sheikh fled to Dubai when we really rocked the world in 1998.

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## baqai

SQ8 said:


> That aerial route is still fairly dangerous in terms of flying over some very desolate and remote terrain that leaves few places for a safe recovery in case of an emergency. The Chinese are doing their best to build infrastructure fast but even now an ejection in that area means likely a long search and rescue.
> 
> *It would be a lot of fun to see the 23rd March parade and no J-10C. Definitely would see a lot of hate comments from the PDF Muj party.*



i know for a fact that i will be very disappointed on that for sure


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## SIPRA

adelphi said:


> Sheikh's excitement is understanable, it's his job to creat excitement but the same Sheikh fled to Dubai when we really rocked the world in 1998.



If it came to a real war with India; this "Sheeda Tully" wouldn't stop before Mars.


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## Salza

baqai said:


> i know for a fact that i will be very disappointed on that for sure


If Pakistan officially inducts J10C before March 23rd, as hinted by Sheikh Rasheed, it should be good enough whether newly acquired planes are paraded or not.

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## serenity

satyamev said:


> We are all waiting eagerly for the j10 to reach Pakistan.
> The flyover should be with complete missile load . That will be a incredible sight.
> Was reading that the Pakistan version will be called f10p. What's the difference from the Chinese verion ? Engine? Avionics ? Armaments ?



That remains to be seen.

For now, here we are guessing with WS-10B engine if new build J-10CE or possibly with AL-31 engines if PAF will receive used J-10C from earlier batches that used AL-31.

Differences to Chinese version is unknown. More likely to be almost the same but with typical changes like language of controls and possibly weapons integration for PAF operated weapons like SD-10. That shouldn't be taking much time at all since that's basically export version of PL-12.


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## shayyman



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## Riz

@PanzerKiel sir what is the update? Kab tak a rahy hain dragons 🐉

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## The Eagle

Khan vilatey said:


> 1) will j-10c fly from China straight over skurdu and on to chaklala? Or will they be carried in the belly of some y-20s and/or il-76



To put it simply, J-10C isn't a new platform like Thunder. I mean it has been in active service and will be delivered by the means of flying itself. See Falcons. Secondly, the area is not that far. Our Thunder used to fly to China to participate in Exercises as well. The kits will come only if an aircraft has to be tested from bolting to test flying. 



Khan vilatey said:


> 4) will the Indian radar operators shit in their pants when these jets fly near soon to be liberated Pakistani territory ?


The News is already enough for them and not just that, but a lot more happening right now (I hope for the best). A bigger show at play. Wait for it... 



Khan vilatey said:


> 3) if the fly near Indian occupied Kashmir will these jets be armed with pl-15 and pl-10 …..


Our route has nothing for them to intercept or making us to carry active BVR/WVR due to their threat.



Khan vilatey said:


> 2) what will be the flight path in either case?


See 1



Khan vilatey said:


> 6) should we start a new thread on this ?



I think it should be started once we have inducted the platform. For example PAF F-16 Thread.

Can't comment for the rest. I am just a simple person reading from here, there or like you good people.

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## Deino

*Guys ... can you please post in English!?*

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## The Eagle

Khan vilatey said:


> 12 new jf-17 block 3



What I can say is that, we can call it an active SQN strength of Block-III.

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## Oruc

SIPRA said:


> @PanzerKiel Sahib ab khud soch main parhay hoye haen, kay kaheen lainay kay dainay he na parh jayain.


But didn't he sat in the cockpit of one

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## SIPRA

Strife said:


> But didn't he sat in the cockpit of one



Yes. I believe, he told this in one of his posts, if I am not mistaken.

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## satyamev

SQ8 said:


> That aerial route is still fairly dangerous in terms of flying over some very desolate and remote terrain that leaves few places for a safe recovery in case of an emergency. The Chinese are doing their best to build infrastructure fast but even now an ejection in that area means likely a long search and rescue.
> 
> It would be a lot of fun to see the 23rd March parade and no J-10C. Definitely would see a lot of hate comments from the PDF Muj party.


Flying over mountains would be a good testament to the confidence the Chinese have in their premier aircraft. 
I vote for flying over , with full armaments.


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## Zarvan

Riz said:


> @PanzerKiel sir what is the update? Kab tak a rahy hain dragons 🐉


I am expecting news on 27th

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## The Eagle

For the reference

*




*

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## Salza

SIPRA said:


> Yes. I believe, he told this in one of his posts, if I am not mistaken.


I think, he was being sarcastic

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## HRK

Zarvan said:


> I am expecting news on 27th


before 27th in fact before the visit of PM to Russia on 23rd of this month ....

(NOTE: this is only my guess)

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## TopGun786

Don't know why but I really have a feeling that they will unveil Dragons on the 27th of Feb.

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## SIPRA

Salza said:


> I think, he was being sarcastic



@PanzerKiel Sahib is extremely enigmatic and cryptic. He throws a stone at beehive (poondhaan da chhatta/khakhar), and then disappears:

"Toon udh ja bholeya panchhiya, toon apni jaan bacha"

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## Reichmarshal

Goenitz said:


> That was his biggest achievement IMO, by relaxing some merit. As we have have now 40k Pak 'ambassadors' in Baluchistan. Considering every man has 4-5 family members, and 15 extended family members it is around 0.5 million people who get Islamabad narrative to their home. Though I was born in Baluchistan but my upbringing is in Punjab. Never in my life I saw a Balchi as Nan bai, cobbler, fellow student, etc. Just one in my MSc in Italy, who came on HEC.


maray bhai its all about bringing everyone into the national mainstream so no one feels left behind. n in Pakistan for some reason the smaller provinces have always felt marginalized, especially the ones who have not had reasonable representation in PA. hence have always labeled PA a "punjabi army". So now the Pakistani military is well on its way to becoming a truly "Pakistani army" in every sense of the word.
All the above in spite of the fact that there are more Baloch in Punjab and Sind than in Baluchistan itself.
they have done really well for themselves and excelled in all fields. 
wasay within the boundaries of Pakistan 90% of the people residing are not people of the land have had over the centuries have migrated here with all the different invading armies.

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## Goenitz

Reichmarshal said:


> maray bhai its all about bringing everyone into the national mainstream so no one feels left behind. n in Pakistan for some reason the smaller provinces have always felt marginalized, especially the ones who have not had reasonable representation in PA. hence have always labeled PA a "punjabi army". So now the Pakistani military is well on its way to becoming a truly "Pakistani army" in every sense of the word.
> All the above in spite of the fact that there are more Baloch in Punjab and Sind than in Baluchistan itself.
> they have done really well for themselves and excelled in all fields.
> wasay within the boundaries of Pakistan 90% of the people residing are not people of the land have had over the centuries have migrated here with all the different invading armies.


Sure. I was just commenting the outcome of it, not the reason why the step was taken like inclusivity, relabelling, etc. Anyway, we are off-topic. Then mentioned that i never met a native Balochistani. Sure, The 'waseeb' belt has Baloch decadents like Esa and Musa (khels) were baloch brothers. The poor Qandeel baloch was also a baluchi.


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## SQ8

Deino said:


> *Guys ... can you please post in English!?*


nothing useful to add. We have about 40 days to see if a known braggart comes true.


satyamev said:


> Flying over mountains would be a good testament to the confidence the Chinese have in their premier aircraft.
> I vote for flying over , with full armaments.


Done very frequently since the 60s.

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## Skywalker

cssniper said:


> In my opinion, extra payloads could significantly reduce flying range of the plane.
> Their safety could be watched by local air divisions from both sides.


AND YOU EXPECT SONEBODY FROM PAF AS A PDF MEMBER WILL PROVIDE LL THE FLIGHT PLAN. SORRY HOW OLD ARE YOU.

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## MIRauf

satyamev said:


> Flying over mountains would be a good testament to the confidence the Chinese have in their premier aircraft.
> I vote for flying over , with full armaments.


Last year, PLAAF J-10s and other aircrafts followed that route over the mountains for a exercise with PAF, so the testament to the confidence is there. However, why would they be loaded with armaments ? PAF J-10C's loaded with armament flying over Chinese space ? why ? they will follow the in transit protocol, thus no armament. Now if escort is needed, I am sure PAF will dispatch couple of F-16s along LoC and it should keep IAF at bay or very very far away.


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## Shotgunner51

satyamev said:


> Flying over mountains *would be* a good testament to the confidence the Chinese have in their premier aircraft.

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## Riz

I guess J-10C on Surprise day and Block 3 on Pakistan Day

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## kursed

Beast said:


> Rumour this J-10C for PAF maybe from existing stock of PLAAF given the urgency of the order.


That won't be surprising, since PA has received SH-15 / PCL181 from existing PLA stocks, and about a couple of other systems were received from direct PLA stock. 

This also points to the fact that Pakistan will receive the original and not export version of PL15.

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## siegecrossbow

Aesterix said:


> Personally I am doubtful about both.
> Apart from Sheikh Rasheed remarks, no other source has said it so far.



Unless Pakistan is suddenly upset with the Martin Baker ejection seats for some reason and are swapping them out for Chinese seats on JF-17 block III, I don't see why else they are training Pakistanis technicians how to operate Chinese ejection seats at CAC.

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## NA71

HRK said:


> before 27th in fact before the visit of PM to Russia on 23rd of this month ....
> 
> (NOTE: this is only my guess)


they must have touched down here.... if they are planned to be revealed on 27th Feb.

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## kursed

satyamev said:


> Flying over mountains would be a good testament to the confidence the Chinese have in their premier aircraft.
> I vote for flying over , with full armaments.


Each Shaheen ex has involved 'flying over the mountains'. There is nothing new in it.

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## cssniper

Skywalker said:


> AND YOU EXPECT SONEBODY FROM PAF AS A PDF MEMBER WILL PROVIDE LL THE FLIGHT PLAN. SORRY HOW OLD ARE YOU.


I think you quote the wrong guy.

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## akramishaqkhan

The Eagle said:


> What I can say is that, we can call it an active SQN strength of Block-III.


Growlers!!


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## Thorough Pro

PLA stock does not mean used item, these are brand new "war reserves"



kursed said:


> That won't be surprising, since PA has received SH-15 / PCL181 from existing PLA stocks, and about a couple of other systems were received from direct PLA stock.
> 
> This also points to the fact that Pakistan will receive the original and not export version of PL15.

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## siegecrossbow

Thorough Pro said:


> PLA stock does not mean used item, these are brand new "war reserves"



I doubt that they are giving second hand birds to PAF. For one I don’t think PAF would accept them.

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## luciferdd

siegecrossbow said:


> I doubt that they are giving second hand birds to PAF. For one I don’t think PAF would accept them.


In fact in sep 2021 military commentator 杨基 had told us CAC were producting a batch of new J-10C with customized equipment(new hud and Link17 datalink etc) for PAF,so it can't be giving second-hand bird to PAF.

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## ARMalik

Beast said:


> Rumour this J-10C for PAF maybe from existing stock of PLAAF given the urgency of the order.



When you say 'Urgency', what do you mean? Urgency for "what" ?


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## mingle

Thorough Pro said:


> PLA stock does not mean used item, these are brand new "war reserves"


They are brand new zero meter

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## Shabi1

PAF took delivery of PLAAF spec J-7s on lease till the F-7P was ready. Possibility that same approach be taken for J-10C till J-10CP is ready. If its a rush purchase the same approach is a possibility.

But again it's speculation work and already stated that getting J-10CP so its a customized variant for Pakistan. If so then these are new builds with our own requested modifications. Also there is another possibility that we are getting incomplete aircraft that is they will be in flying condition but require in house integration of systems in Pakistan. If thats the case they won't be operational with any squadron anytime soon.

Again its all guess work and a lot of ifs till we have official news of induction and aircraft designation from PAF itself.


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## NA71

mingle said:


> They are brand new zero meter



Or the meter is set to show "Zero" permanently.

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## Deino

Thorough Pro said:


> PLA stock does not mean used item, these are brand new "war reserves"




Since when does the PLA has a war-reserve of unused aircraft standing around?

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## GriffinsRule

Shabi1 said:


> PAF took delivery of PLAAF spec J-7s on lease till the F-7P was ready. Possibility that same approach be taken for J-10C till J-10CP is ready. If its a rush purchase the same approach is a possibility.
> 
> But again it's speculation work and already stated that getting J-10CP so its a customized variant for Pakistan. If so then these are new builds with our own requested modifications. Also there is another possibility that we are getting incomplete aircraft that is they will be in flying condition but require in house integration of systems in Pakistan. If thats the case they won't be operational with any squadron anytime soon.
> 
> Again its all guess work and a lot of ifs till we have official news of induction and aircraft designation from PAF itself.


What is your source for that?


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## Mohsin123

Donot want to sound negetive but there is no confirmation of this possibility from the circles that matter. ISPR only had a veiled responce over this issue. Sheikh Rasheed is in no way a credible source for this kind of information. Even the MoD has not even confirmed this news. Sheikh Rasheed in my opinion was just trying to score some political points against Rafale and S-400 induction by IAF. Maybe later there is something planned as a stopgap measure. But for 23rd March i would not be too eager, may be a flypast of Block IIIs but who knows!!!!!!

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## cssniper

https://m.weibo.cn/2139949234/4737173066879457
https://m.weibo.cn/2139949234/4737178305304289

Rumor says that J-10CP is under testing in China.
In PAF painting.

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## Salza

Mohsin123 said:


> Donot want to sound negetive but there is no confirmation of this possibility from the circles that matter. ISPR only had a veiled responce over this issue. Sheikh Rasheed is in no way a credible source for this kind of information. Even the MoD has not even confirmed this news. Sheikh Rasheed in my opinion was just trying to score some political points against Rafale and S-400 induction by IAF. Maybe later there is something planned as a stopgap measure. But for 23rd March i would not be too eager, may be a flypast of Block IIIs but who knows!!!!!!



If there is no confirmation than there is no denial as well from the circles that matter. Sheikh Rasheed is country's interior minister. Enough said.

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## HRK

siegecrossbow said:


> I doubt that they are giving second hand birds to PAF. For one I don’t think PAF would accept them.





Thorough Pro said:


> PLA stock does not mean used item, these are brand new "war reserves"


Or we if recall the a recent open source info (I think 1 or 2 months back) about +25 J-10C which were seen freshly built but was waiting for their induction in PLAAF then it might be possible PAAF inducted those birds in her fleet first and now transferring it to PAF.

Same as we have seen on paper AH-1Z for Pakistan were ordered from US Gov/Marinies along with a bigger batch ordered for their own use.

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## TopGun786

cssniper said:


> https://m.weibo.cn/2139949234/4737173066879457
> https://m.weibo.cn/2139949234/4737178305304289
> 
> Rumor says that J-10CP is under testing in China.
> In PAF painting.


A quick google translation shows.
Pakistan Raptors test flight





On the tail is the Pakistani flag, this batch is the batch that will participate in the ceremony

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## Salza

TopGun786 said:


> A quick google translation shows.
> Pakistan Raptors test flight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the tail is the Pakistani flag, this batch is the batch that will participate in the ceremony



Cannot view the video. Can you access the video or if there is a picture as well


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## baqai

TopGun786 said:


> A quick google translation shows.
> Pakistan Raptors test flight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the tail is the Pakistani flag, this batch is the batch that will participate in the ceremony





cssniper said:


> https://m.weibo.cn/2139949234/4737173066879457
> https://m.weibo.cn/2139949234/4737178305304289
> 
> Rumor says that J-10CP is under testing in China.
> In PAF painting.



can't see any image?


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## cssniper

baqai said:


> can't see any image?



Sadly there is no images, just rumors.

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## Mohsin123

Salza said:


> If there is no confirmation than there is no denial as well from the circles that matter. Sheikh Rasheed is country's interior minister. Enough said.


ISPR cannot deny a sitting interior minister directly even how much of a big mouth he has doesnot look good politically. Say something to me when you have some credible confirmation not statements from random press conferences or weibo!!!


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## Salza

Mohsin123 said:


> ISPR cannot deny a sitting interior minister directly even how much of a big mouth he has doesnot look good politically. Say something to me when you have some credible confirmation not statements from random press conferences or weibo!!!


and who told SR about J10C at first place ? Martians ? and there is nothing to tell you since you lack simple assessment of the events regarding Pakistan's potential buy of J10C even before this topic.

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## Mohsin123

Salza said:


> and who told SR about J10C at first place ? Martians ? and there is nothing to tell you since you lack simple assessment of the events regarding Pakistan's potential buy of J10C even before this topic.


Before bringing martians into the discussions try to use some logical thinking even if its a big deal for you!!!!!!
btw to clear your thoughts do you know about the saga of J10 being inducted into PAF since the time of Musharraf when the same SR was the information minister ??? again to make it even more simpler for you the news of J10s being inducted in PAF is going around since 10 years

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## The Eagle

akramishaqkhan said:


> Growlers!!



I see that happening but with new approach and tech within the structure proving enough to do the job. We ain't looking at a particular airframe with specific job. Whole fleet will carry such capability within its airframe.

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## TopGun786

baqai said:


> can't see any image?


There is no image.


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## Salza

Mohsin123 said:


> Before bringing martians into the discussions try to use some logical thinking even if its a big deal for you!!!!!!
> btw to clear your thoughts do you know about the saga of J10 being inducted into PAF since the time of Musharraf when the same SR was the information minister ??? again to make it even more simpler for you the news of J10s being inducted in PAF is going around since 10 years


During Musharaf days, it was offered but no minister that time claimed it like the way SR did it on Dec 28,2021. Moreever, PAF was getting Block 52s that time so there was no need for the J10A back than and most of our money was going into JF17s program nor India was getting anything like Rafales that time. Mind you, if we had a continued supply of F16s especially block 72s than PAF would had not opted for J10Cs at all.

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## TopGun786

1- J10C (E/P) is coming? ... 100%. There should not be any doubt. It is very clear and 110% confirmed.

2- When? ... Don't know exactly but 90% chances are before mid of March.

3- Will perform flypast on the 23rd of March? Chances are 50/50 so far.

4- Total numbers ? ... 25 possibly by now. At least 36-50 in total.

5- In Pakistani colors? YES

6- Engine: WS-10 most likely.
​

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## Salza

Forget SR, most of the well informed members here have been claiming about J10s for the last 1 year or so. Ten years back, it was always on the menu but no member here was confirming the purchase so that time, talk remained as talk.



TopGun786 said:


> 3- Will perform flypast on the 23rd of March? Chances are 50/50 so far.


If the planes land before March 23rd, in case if they are not here already, than flypast of 3-4 J10Cs will most likely take place. Though SR's claim of 25 J10Cs participating in the flypast looks dubious.

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## Mohsin123

Salza said:


> During Musharaf days, it was offered but no minister that time claimed it like the way SR did it on Dec 28,2021. Moreever, PAF was getting Block 52s that time so there was no need for the J10A back than and most of our money was going into JF17s program nor India was getting anything like Rafales that time. Mind you, if we had a continued supply of F16s especially block 72s than PAF would had not opted for J10Cs at all.


Now you are making some valid points instesd of banking too much on what Sheikh Rasheed says !!!!! we will definitly know on 23rd March was he well informed or doing his usual bit of throwing news around....
Let's agree to disagree you are right that PAF waited long for F-16s but if you also see PAF's history , they have never inducted any aircraft for air defence or air dominance role if its not combat proven even if how good its on paper, for JF17 its our own baby and we can tweak and improve it as we see fit, we will never have this luxury with J10s how close are we to China PL15 is integrated on Block IIIs which makes the difference between two quantitative than qualitative. I mean no offence to our chinese brothers here they have developed a beautiful bird but we will not know for sure how effective it is unless combat proven, this point in my opinion has always made PAF hold back on J10 induction, you must also recall the induction of ZDK-03 was more of a political move to have close cooperation with chinese. Since then we are inducting more Eriyes and using them extensively. So my two cents Interior Minister SR or some reputable members here are not a credible source for multi billion dollar defence purchases, only ISPR or MoD are, or some credible leaked infos like future tenders or valid photographs, 
But we will know for sure in coming months so fingures crossed!!!!!

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## NA71

Mohsin123 said:


> Now you are making some valid points instesd of banking too much on what Sheikh Rasheed says !!!!! we will definitly know on 23rd March was he well informed or doing his usual bit of throwing news around....
> Let's agree to disagree you are right that PAF waited long for F-16s but if you also see PAF's history , they have never inducted any aircraft for air defence or air dominance role if its not combat proven even if how good its on paper, for JF17 its our own baby and we can tweak and improve it as we see fit, we will never have this luxury with J10s how close are we to China PL15 is integrated on Block IIIs which makes the difference between two quantitative than qualitative. I mean no offence to our chinese brothers here they have developed a beautiful bird but we will not know for sure how effective it is unless combat proven, this point in my opinion has always made PAF hold back on J10 induction, you must also recall the induction of ZDK-03 was more of a political move to have close cooperation with chinese. Since then we are inducting more Eriyes and using them extensively. So my two cents Interior Minister SR or some reputable members here are not a credible source for multi billion dollar defence purchases, only ISPR or MoD are, or some credible leaked infos like future tenders or valid photographs,
> But we will know for sure in coming months so fingures crossed!!!!!




Shaikh Rashid is not opening his mouth repeatedly without the consent of sarkar...He was told to open the discussion and since thn he is doing the job on regular intervals.

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## Mohsin123

NA71 said:


> Shaikh Rashid is not opening his mouth repeatedly without the consent of sarkar...He was told to open the discussion and since thn he is doing the job on regular intervals.


You might be right, let's not use scarcastic slurrs so i will say the armed forces, this is not a pradigm shifting news like test of an ICBM or bieng in a NATO like military alliance with some one, so that armed forces or the Gov. might need a feeler about national or international reaction, it is the induction of a 4.5 gen aircraft which is quite common in the world

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## Salza

Mohsin123 said:


> Now you are making some valid points instesd of banking too much on what Sheikh Rasheed says !!!!! we will definitly know on 23rd March was he well informed or doing his usual bit of throwing news around....
> Let's agree to disagree you are right that PAF waited long for F-16s but if you also see PAF's history , they have never inducted any aircraft for air defence or air dominance role if its not combat proven even if how good its on paper, for JF17 its our own baby and we can tweak and improve it as we see fit, we will never have this luxury with J10s how close are we to China PL15 is integrated on Block IIIs which makes the difference between two quantitative than qualitative. I mean no offence to our chinese brothers here they have developed a beautiful bird but we will not know for sure how effective it is unless combat proven, this point in my opinion has always made PAF hold back on J10 induction, you must also recall the induction of ZDK-03 was more of a political move to have close cooperation with chinese. Since then we are inducting more Eriyes and using them extensively. So my two cents Interior Minister SR or some reputable members here are not a credible source for multi billion dollar defence purchases, only ISPR or MoD are, or some credible leaked infos like future tenders or valid photographs,
> But we will know for sure in coming months so fingures crossed!!!!!


ISPR or MOD will only gonna reveal information when official ceremony has taken place so you have to rely on non official but credible sources from multiple places. SR not as a politician alone but as an interior minister is indeed a credible source so as many well informed PDF members here.

ZDK-03 were probably purchased as an emergency order as a back up when our 1-2 Erieyes were damaged/destroyed in a terrorist attack. Issue with ZDK-03 was their compatibility with F16s as Americans doesn't let their machines talk with Russian and Chinese devices so ZDK-03 always had thunders only to talk with but now with J10Cs and much capable JF17 in the form of block3s, ZDK-03 can be utilized to their optimum capabilities moving forward.

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## NA71

"It should be a test flight before delivery, just like when you buy a car, you always have to find an experienced master to inspect the car."​
Taken from the commentary going on .....links:

https://m.weibo.cn/2139949234/4737173066879457
https://m.weibo.cn/2139949234/4737178305304289

also they are discussing nos that will be dispatched in first go. ....


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## Shabi1

GriffinsRule said:


> What is your source for that?


"Pakistan contributed greatly to the J/F-7M program: although Pakistan did not purchase any F-7M and *later returned all 20 F-7M's to China after evaluation* to require China to provide a better fighter (which eventually resulted in F-7MP and F-7P), Pakistan did provide important support for F-7M program, after the then Vice Chief of the Air Staff of Pakistani Air Force (PAF) Air marshal Jamal A. Khan inspected prototypes in test flights in July 1983 at Dalian. Pakistani contribution includes:"






List of Chengdu J-7 variants - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org

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## farooqbhai007

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493542682962059264

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## NA71

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493542682962059264


Zalim you found it on twitter ...i was searching that forum very hard......apparently you are first one ...

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## siegecrossbow

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493542682962059264



If I am not mistaken this is WS-10 engine. No wonder we didn’t hear any drama involving Russians. Not that it would matter now that they are so close to the Chinese due to geopolitical reasons.

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## NA71

More photos on are coming ....



siegecrossbow said:


> If I am not mistaken this is WS-10 engine. No wonder we didn’t hear any drama involving Russians. Not that it would matter now that they are so close to the Chinese due to geopolitical reasons.



this is what they are discussing :

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## Mohsin123

Salza said:


> ISPR or MOD will only gonna reveal information when official ceremony has taken place so you have to rely on non official but credible sources from multiple places. SR not as a politician alone but as an interior minister is indeed a credible source so as many well informed PDF members here.
> 
> ZDK-03 were probably purchased as an emergency order as a back up when our 1-2 Erieyes were damaged/destroyed in a terrorist attack. Issue with ZDK-03 was their compatibility with F16s as Americans doesn't let their machines talk with Russian and Chinese devices so ZDK-03 always had thunders only to talk with but now with J10Cs and much capable JF17 in the form of block3s, ZDK-03 can be utilized to their optimum capabilities.


Valid points on your part , for the first as I said in my personal opinion one statement from SR is not enough that we start waiting for 23rd march and when dissapointed start hurling curses around

The awacs can always work as airborn ADCs for any type of aircraft through Secure Comms. The problem arises when they have to exchange mission critical data through Data Links as guiding BVRs etc . So in a way the erieyes can guide or vector in the thunders. Even ZDKs can act as guides for F-16s but the complete sitational awareness is not possible with data links. Ask yourself that question that what a J10 can do which a well connected, situationally aware team of block IIIs cannot do? Even if J10s are here it will not be the TV varient, btw again lets wait for 23rd march but if no J10s i would say be patient!!!


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## Jinn Baba

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493542682962059264



😍 😍


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## TopGun786

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493542682962059264


If this picture is not photoshopped experts can also find the sort of engine used.

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## shofotolavski

New aircraft of Pakistan Air Force have flown from China to Pakistan

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## arjunk

Hmmm.....

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## Mohsin A



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## Zarvan



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## SIPRA

Source?


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## luciferdd

TopGun786 said:


> If this picture is not photoshopped experts can also find the sort of engine used.


It's WS-10B
simular pic:

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## Chak Bamu

shofotolavski said:


> View attachment 815563
> 
> 
> New aircraft of Pakistan Air Force have flown from China to Pakistan


Can we get a source? A geolocation would be nice too.


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## NA71

The forum discussion calling it WS-1O codename Taihang

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## TopGun786

TopGun786 said:


> 1- J10C (E/P) is coming? ... 100%. There should not be any doubt. It is very clear and 110% confirmed.
> 
> 2- When? ... Don't know exactly but 90% chances are before mid of March.
> 
> 3- Will perform flypast on the 23rd of March? Chances are 50/50 so far.
> 
> 4- Total numbers ? ... 25 possibly by now. At least 36-50 in total.
> 
> 5- In Pakistani colors? YES
> 
> 6- Engine: WS-10 most likely.
> ​


Peeps I told you .......................... They are coming.

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## iLION12345_1

Congratulations.

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## shofotolavski

SIPRA said:


> Source?








动态-哔哩哔哩







t.bilibili.com

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## Windjammer

in

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## TopGun786

NA71 said:


> "It should be a test flight before delivery, just like when you buy a car, you always have to find an experienced master to inspect the car."​
> Taken from the commentary going on .....links:
> 
> https://m.weibo.cn/2139949234/4737173066879457
> https://m.weibo.cn/2139949234/4737178305304289
> 
> also they are discussing nos that will be dispatched in first go. ....


Yes. Discussing numbers.


----------



## siegecrossbow

Mohsin A said:


>



CAC wall climbers strike again!

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## Salza

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493542682962059264



*Exclusive Alert : So is this first ever Pakistani J10C picture ? Wooo *

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## iLION12345_1

So it seems they’re going to Kamra? The JF-17s and mirages from Kamra have been moved to Chaklala. Possibly making space for these? Would also allow them to be at Shakarparian on the 23rd?

Either way, the wait is over I guess. That’s about as official as it gets. Block 3 and J-10CP together, will be quite a sight. Now let’s make a few thousand more speculations and J-20 might be the next to land at karma

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## Salza

Mohsin123 said:


> Valid points on your part , for the first as I said in my personal opinion one statement from SR is not enough that we start waiting for 23rd march and when dissapointed start hurling curses around
> 
> The awacs can always work as airborn ADCs for any type of aircraft through Secure Comms. The problem arises when they have to exchange mission critical data through Data Links as guiding BVRs etc . So in a way the erieyes can guide or vector in the thunders. Even ZDKs can act as guides for F-16s but the complete sitational awareness is not possible with data links. Ask yourself that question that what a J10 can do which a well connected, situationally aware team of block IIIs cannot do? Even if J10s are here it will not be the TV varient, btw again lets wait for 23rd march but if no J10s i would say be patient!!!



LOL, pictures of Pakistani J10Cs are being now posted as we speak

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## Zarvan

Congratulations every one. It's time to say thanks to ALLAH and read darood salaam on his PROPHET SAW and be humble but also time to bombard Indian forums with these

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## Shabi1

Mohsin123 said:


> Valid points on your part , for the first as I said in my personal opinion one statement from SR is not enough that we start waiting for 23rd march and when dissapointed start hurling curses around
> 
> The awacs can always work as airborn ADCs for any type of aircraft through Secure Comms. The problem arises when they have to exchange mission critical data through Data Links as guiding BVRs etc . So in a way the erieyes can guide or vector in the thunders. Even ZDKs can act as guides for F-16s but the complete sitational awareness is not possible with data links. Ask yourself that question that what a J10 can do which a well connected, situationally aware team of block IIIs cannot do? Even if J10s are here it will not be the TV varient, btw again lets wait for 23rd march but if no J10s i would say be patient!!!


This is where Pakistan's indigenous Link 17 datalink comes in. It is supposed to be integrated among all three branches and collectively redistribute radar, drone and satellite information from the various origin platforms of all three branches.








Pakistan’s C4I Evolution


Compared to India, Pakistan’s ability to acquire the latest fighter aircraft and other sophisticated weapons (especially from the West) is markedly more limited. However, the nature of modern warfar...




quwa.org












Pakistan’s C4ISR (Part 4): Communications (Data-Links)


27 March 2016 By Bilal Khan Part four of our series on Pakistan’s C4ISR [command, control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance] will focus on the role of ...




quwa.org












“Link-17” – Pakistan’s homegrown data-link system


05 April 2016 By Bilal Khan A recent report on the Pakistan Air Force (PAF)’s Combat Commanders School (CCS) by Wajahat S. Khan offered a number of informative details on the inner-workings of...




quwa.org





From Bilal Khan's (QUWA) analysis, Erieyes and ZDK-03s can act as airborne bridge between Link-16 and Link-17 that is PAF-16s can have access to non US origin platform information but only the Erieye has the ability to guide AMRAAMs for long range engagements. Speculation but with SD-10/PL-15 PAF will probably not have this handicap, its very plausible that they can be guided by both Erieye and ZDK-03s or other link-17 aircraft.

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## Salza

siegecrossbow said:


> CAC wall climbers strike again!


LOL, thanks for them, hired by @Deino

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## siegecrossbow

Salza said:


> *Exclusive Alert : So is this first ever Pakistani J10C picture ? Wooo *



You would think so, but keep in mind that one of the J-10Cs in yellow primer that we've been photographed in the past might be this exact bird. So we could've seen it before, just naked.

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## Chak Bamu

NA71 said:


> The forum discussion calling it WS-1O codename Taihang


Well that is what it has always been called. Where is news in that?

Chalo ji. Now we know that AL-31 was deliberate misinformation. Good job by PAF. I wonder how much the Indians would have pissed of the Russians due to this.

Where is @Deino? This is pretty much confirmation my dear friend.

Y'all can check my posts. I have always maintained that PAF will go for J-10. Its good to be proven right.

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## Salza



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## StormBreaker

shofotolavski said:


> View attachment 815563
> 
> 
> New aircraft of Pakistan Air Force have flown from China to Pakistan


AL-31FN !!!!!!!!!!

It’s a Russian engine indeed.



shofotolavski said:


> View attachment 815563
> 
> 
> New aircraft of Pakistan Air Force have flown from China to Pakistan


They should have opted for a F-16 Havglass type texture and coating. Plain old PLAAF J-10C paint

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## DANGER-ZONE

arjunk said:


> View attachment 815564
> 
> 
> Hmmm.....


So the engine is a Chinese WS-10 and not AL-31F as some members were saying since the start.

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## Salza

StormBreaker said:


> AL-31FN !!!!!!!!!!
> 
> It’s a Russian engine indeed.


Who the F**k cares the engine is Russian or Chinese. Lets us enjoy and welcome the moment!

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## NA71



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## Chak Bamu

guys I am trying to trend #J10CinPAF on Twitter.

Please hlep

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## iLION12345_1

StormBreaker said:


> AL-31FN !!!!!!!!!!
> 
> It’s a Russian engine indeed.
> 
> 
> They should have opted for a F-16 Havglass type texture and coating. Plain old PLAAF J-10C paint


That looks like a WS-10B to me, it’s impossible to actually tell from the photo, let’s hold off on the speculation.

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## Mohsin123

Shabi1 said:


> This is where Pakistan's indigenous Link 17 datalink comes in. It is supposed to be integrated among all three branches and collectively redistribute radar, drone and satellite information from the various origin platforms of all three branches.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan’s C4I Evolution
> 
> 
> Compared to India, Pakistan’s ability to acquire the latest fighter aircraft and other sophisticated weapons (especially from the West) is markedly more limited. However, the nature of modern warfar...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quwa.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan’s C4ISR (Part 4): Communications (Data-Links)
> 
> 
> 27 March 2016 By Bilal Khan Part four of our series on Pakistan’s C4ISR [command, control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance] will focus on the role of ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quwa.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “Link-17” – Pakistan’s homegrown data-link system
> 
> 
> 05 April 2016 By Bilal Khan A recent report on the Pakistan Air Force (PAF)’s Combat Commanders School (CCS) by Wajahat S. Khan offered a number of informative details on the inner-workings of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quwa.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From Bilal Khan's (QUWA) analysis, Erieyes and ZDK-03s can act as airborne bridge between Link-16 and Link-17 that is PAF-16s can have access to non US origin platform information but only the Erieye has the ability to guide AMRAAMs for long range engagements. Speculation but with SD-10/PL-15 PAF will probably not have this handicap, its very plausible that they can be guided by both Erieye and ZDK-03s or other link-17 aircraft.


Thanks for the info, my understanding was always that the western and chinese systems work under different datalinks Link16 and Link17 independent of each othe. I would say if PAF has integrated all the assets in one data link in a network centric environment with a home grown solution, which resolves a lot of problems with interoperatability Hats off to them!! Opens up lots of possibilites and reduces a lot of constraints for future purchases.

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## 帅的一匹

StormBreaker said:


> AL-31FN !!!!!!!!!!
> 
> It’s a Russian engine indeed.
> 
> 
> They should have opted for a F-16 Havglass type texture and coating. Plain old PLAAF J-10C paint


It’s obvious an WS10 engine.

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## siegecrossbow

NA71 said:


> View attachment 815577



Halal dragon... We should make that the nickname!

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## Muhammad Omar

Finally JS10 😂😂😂

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## Trailer23

I got the Serial Numbers of 2 of 'em.

Sorry can't share at the instructions of my 'Source'.

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## NA71

Halal Dragon is coming in six formation .....woh keh rahey hein

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## Bilal.

Waiting for @Deino to carry out the forensic for us

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## iLION12345_1

Trailer23 said:


> I got the Serial Numbers of 2 of 'em.
> 
> Sorry can't share at the instructions of my 'Source'.


Is it this?

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## Raja Porus



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## Bilal.

Trailer23 said:


> I got the Serial Numbers of 2 of 'em.
> 
> Sorry can't share at the instructions of my 'Source'.


Black nozzle or silver?


----------



## Fioril

NA71 said:


> Halal Dragon is coming in six formation .....woh keh rahey hein


How are you using that app , doesnt it require Chinese phone number to make an account


----------



## Windjammer

StormBreaker said:


> AL-31FN !!!!!!!!!!
> 
> It’s a Russian engine indeed.


Wrong it seems to be the Chinese WS-10 with shorter Nozzle.

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## Bin Laden

Looks like Ws10 to me.

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## Raja Porus



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## Muhammad Omar

iLION12345_1 said:


> Is it this?


Wo keh raha share nahi krni ap ne pics dal Di 😂🤣

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493557514075447298

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## abrar khan

Superb, great news... J10C and JF17 BLKIII will be flying together on 23rd March, InshAllah

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## Trailer23

iLION12345_1 said:


> Is it this?


Nope, but they are from starboard side with what appears to be another aircraft on approach at a distance.

I'm seeing these 2 for the first time & are both different Serial Numbers.

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## iLION12345_1

Muhammad Omar said:


> Wo keh raha share nahi krni ap ne pics dal Di 😂🤣


I wasn’t the first

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## luciferdd

Windjammer said:


> Wrong it seems to be the Chinese WS-10 with shorter Nozzle.
> View attachment 815585
> View attachment 815586


It's 100% WS-10B,the same to the one in serviced in PLAAF recently.

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## RangeMaster

*Finally.... *


Congratulations everyone especially *Denio*

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## Muslim Warrior

Alhamdulilah

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## siegecrossbow

Windjammer said:


> Wrong it seems to be the Chinese WS-10 with shorter Nozzle.
> View attachment 815585
> View attachment 815586



A better distinguishing feature is the ring of flaps you see inside of the nozzles. Only M88 has similar configuration.

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## TaimiKhan

Congrats guys

Told u to have some patience, the beauties were coming.

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## ghazi52

GREAT NEWS , SUPER......

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## siegecrossbow

Chinese military fans already excited about Pakistanis J-10C performing at Zhuhai 2022, possibly...

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## Windjammer

Please remember Sheikh Rasheed for breaking this news first. 
This is for him.

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## Chak Bamu

Chak Bamu said:


> guys I am trying to trend #J10CinPAF on Twitter.
> 
> Please hlep


Thank you @PakistanNeya & @muazfarooqaslam on twitter for helping trend #J10CinPAF. You may be active posters or guests, I don't know; but thanks nonetheless.

We should celebrate this moment in whatever way we can. Even if you thought that PAF could do better with a different choice, you should still celebrate because PAF has made a decision & we should stand behind it. I trust PAF more than my (& others') analytical capabilities.

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## arjunk

Cockpit pics soon

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## monitor

AEROSINT Division PSF@PSFAERO·1hCHENGDU
CHINA

First photos emerge of Pakistan Air Force CAC J-10C 4.5+ generation combat aircraft, which are on the test lines in Chengdu, and will be performing flypasts on the #Pakistan Day Parade 2022 on the 23rd of March.

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## ghazi52

Started from here.....................................

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## Mohsin A

CONGRATULATIONS TO THE NATION. RAFALE KILLER IS HERE

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## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> Please remember Sheikh Rasheed for breaking this news first.
> This is for him.
> 
> View attachment 815602


*#Gangsta*

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## Ghessan

Muhammad Omar said:


> Finally JS10 😂😂😂
> 
> 
> View attachment 815579


isn't it PLAAF paint scheme?


----------



## Abid123

A real air superiority beast being inducted by PAF!

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## shayyman

It's coming.


----------



## NA71

Fioril said:


> How are you using that app , doesnt it require Chinese phone number to make an account


Sab bata Don.... Hon?

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## Hassan Imtiaz

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 815571
> 
> 
> View attachment 815572
> in


MashAllah.. all praise to Allah.. may ALLAH make it a successful addition. May ALLAH strike fear in hearts of our enemies.

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## abdulbarijan

Alhamdullilah 

Just to give Sheikh Rasheed the credit for being right on this one, I hope we rename the bird to JS-10, just for the heck of it

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## siegecrossbow

ghazi52 said:


> Started from here.....................................
> 
> View attachment 815607



Does Pakistan still have flyable J-5/J-6? If so they could do a photoshoot like this in the near future.

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## ghazi52

Welcome

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## Flight of falcon

Went to sleep last night and some members were still spreading gloom and doom doubting anything is coming and claiming even if true old planes will be inducted etc.

Those members should be given punishments by changing their profile pictures to this :

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Air Force is Great, Please keep on adding.........................

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## ghazi52

Now change the formation....

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## The Eagle

Flight of falcon said:


> Went to sleep last night and some members were still spreading gloom and doom doubting anything is coming and claiming even if true old planes will be inducted etc.
> 
> Those members should be given punishments by changing their profile pictures to this :
> 
> View attachment 815616


Be like

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## abdulbarijan

Time to hit the prayer mat and pray that the PTV cameramen don't screw this 23rd march up for us.

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## siegecrossbow

farooqbhai007 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493542682962059264



One detail I just noticed is that it has one dorsal antenna vs 2 on PLAAF J-10C. Looks like this is a bird tailored to Pakistanis needs.

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## The Eagle

siegecrossbow said:


> One detail I just noticed is that it has one dorsal antenna vs 2 on PLAAF J-10C. Looks like this is a bird tailored to Pakistanis needs.



I can see 2 more but who knows till clear images.

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## siegecrossbow

The Eagle said:


> I can see 2 more but who knows till clear images.



I thought so at first but they appear to be background objects (some sort of poles) superimposed with the aircraft. I agree that we should wait for clearer image.

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## Windjammer

siegecrossbow said:


> One detail I just noticed is that it has one dorsal antenna vs 2 on PLAAF J-10C. Looks like this is a bird tailored to Pakistanis needs.

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## ghazi52

I wish to have this formation of J10CP.....







Hawker Furies Stream Past Harvards Forming National Emblem, 22 February 1955.

© DPR-PAF

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## luciferdd

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 815636
> View attachment 815636

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## Areesh

So we can say that

Even J10C bhi Pakistan aa gaya

Laikin woh banda wapis Pakistan nahi aaya jo Lonon dawai lainai gaya tha

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## Maxpane

Congrats to all . Waiting for the more pics . Indeed secnd to none. Paf zindabad

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## SIPRA

@PanzerKiel 

Sir: Where are you?

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## Windjammer

No doubt next time the Shaheen series of exercise will involve a PAF J-10 as well.

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## PurpleButcher

Congratulations everyone  My vote for Sheikh Rasheed is 1now 100% confirmed in 2023 election!

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## Trailer23

Nice to see so many Members - in all the hype.






[par kon hai ye *14 mehmaan*?]​

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## Areesh

Since it looks like the engine of Pakistani J10C would be WS10 if some member can provide us with a post explaining the difference between WS10 and AL31 engines

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## NA71

siegecrossbow said:


> One detail I just noticed is that it has one dorsal antenna vs 2 on PLAAF J-10C. Looks like this is a bird tailored to Pakistanis needs.


in that particular forum they already naming these birds as J-10D

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## TopGun786

Trailer23 said:


> Nice to see so many Members - in all the hype.
> 
> View attachment 815653
> 
> [par kon hai ye *14 mehmaan*?]​


Mostly neighbours 😁


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## NA71

NOW this is something special


----------



## siegecrossbow

Areesh said:


> Since it looks like the engine of Pakistani J10C would be WS10 if some member can provide us with a post explaining the difference between WS10 and AL31 engines



In short, shorter petals, different number of petals, and flaps inside the engine nozzles similar to what is used in M88. Also of course WS-10 is domestic engine.

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## ghazi52



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## Vapnope

What a sight it would be when all the birds will be revealed to the public in Pakistan. Maybe an elephant walk and it would be icing on the top.

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## NA71

China’s Next Generation J-10C Fighters Get Powerful New WS-10 Engines​




__





Military Watch Magazine







militarywatchmagazine.com




J-10 Single Engine Fighter (AL-31 and WS-10 Engines

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## Trailer23

Aray, sari awaam idr hai tou _waha_ kon chukidari kar raha hai?

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## siegecrossbow

Windjammer said:


> No doubt next time the Shaheen series of exercise will involve a PAF J-10 as well.
> 
> 
> View attachment 815644



I agree. PLAAF has been leveraging the platform advantage for the past few exercises. Hopefully they get their teeth kicked in by J-10P so they can get beat into shape by PAF at its best so they don’t get too cocky.

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## kursed

And the day has finally arrived. Thanks for your patience folks. The 500 page thread  

Bismillah!

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## Sayfullah

Alhumdulliah their here.
PAF is always ahead of IAF. They were planning on inducting fighters jets for a decade while we actually inducted them!

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## SIPRA

Trailer23 said:


> Aray, sari awaam idr hai tou _waha_ kon chukidari kar raha hai?



"Sheeda Tully"

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## Daniel808

Finally, seeing this Beast in PAF Colour 😍

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## Deino

Trailer23 said:


> I got the Serial Numbers of 2 of 'em.
> 
> Sorry can't share at the instructions of my 'Source'.




They are already posted at Twitter 












StormBreaker said:


> AL-31FN !!!!!!!!!!
> 
> It’s a Russian engine indeed.




Nope! Clearly a WS-10B

Slowly the images are getting clearer and as it seems, the antenna fit is a bit different to the PLAAF cousins.

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## kursed

Thankfully the Chinese engine got confirmed. Next I believe you’d find that IRST on it too. 

The bird didn’t lose any systems for Pak.

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## Windjammer

Since it's reported that the PAF J-10s will make their debut on Pakistan Day Parade which is barely weeks away, I hope to see it makes an entrance different to the usual four ship flypast.
A bomb burst over the venue will be the more appropriate introduction.

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## Sayfullah

21 guests 👀

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## PakFactor

siegecrossbow said:


> I agree. PLAAF has been leveraging the platform advantage for the past few exercises. Hopefully they get their teeth kicked in by J-10P so they can get beat into shape by PAF at its best so they don’t get too cocky.



I know PAF & PLAAF did some exercises 2nd half of last year, but behind the scenes are they carried out which we don't hear about? --- because I've always head PAF going places but not much with Chinese unless it'll start to get more and more active in this area.



Jf-17 block 3 said:


> View attachment 815669
> 
> 
> 21 guests 👀



Hamara hum sai

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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> Since it's reported that the PAF J-10s will make their debut on Pakistan Day Parade which is barely weeks away, I hope to see it makes an entrance different to the usual four ship flypast.
> A bomb burst over the venue will be the more appropriate introduction.
> 
> View attachment 815668



I hope PAF makes formation of 75 or diamond jubliee of Pak independence.


----------



## araz

abdulbarijan said:


> Time to hit the prayer mat and pray that the PTV cameramen don't screw this 23rd march up for us.


Make naqaab and jilbab compulsary for lady attenders. That aught to make them Concentrate a bit more.
A

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> They are already posted at Twitter
> 
> View attachment 815665
> View attachment 815666
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope! Clearly a WS-10B
> 
> Slowly the images are getting clearer and as it seems, the antenna fit is a bit different to the PLAAF cousins.
> 
> View attachment 815667



So the dorsal EW antenna is missing. I don’t think it is too big a dea since J-10C’s prototype didn’t have it either, meaning that it could be added in a later upgrade.

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## araz

Areesh said:


> So we can say that
> 
> Even J10C bhi Pakistan aa gaya
> 
> Laikin woh banda wapis Pakistan nahi aaya jo Lonon dawai lainai gaya tha


J10C has some ghairat.

A

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## Flight of falcon

I hope we can finally give away with the tradition of F-16 leading the fly past ….. 
it’s time to give space to J10 and JF17……

No more Amreeki jahaz controlling our psyche…

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## Daniel808

Areesh said:


> Since it looks like the engine of Pakistani J10C would be WS10 if some member can provide us with a post explaining the difference between WS10 and AL31 engines



WS-10B onboard J-10C have *Higher Thrust, Better Thrust-to-Weight Ratio, Better Fuel Consumption which extend the Combat Range* of J-10C compared to AL-31 powered J-10.

And it’s Chinese Technology from AECC, Corp. So there is unlimited supply of Spare Parts for the Engine (not depends on Russian factory)

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## PakFactor

Windjammer said:


> Please remember Sheikh Rasheed for breaking this news first.
> This is for him.
> 
> View attachment 815602



Actually if you go back last year, I broke it first once Kaiser Tufail told me it's coming posted screen shots of conv to.

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## Zarvan

Guys use these pictures and post them on twitter and tag Indian journalists and veterans specially Gobar Arya and Shiv Aroor and Vishnu Som and Rahul Kanwal and Gaurav C sawant and others

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## WinterFangs



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## kursed

siegecrossbow said:


> So the dorsal EW antenna is missing. I don’t think it is too big a dea since J-10C’s prototype didn’t have it either, meaning that it could be added in a later upgrade.


Which fin are you referring to?


----------



## That Guy

Perhaps the pick of a ws-10b engine is also a test to check the reliability of Chinese engines, and how they'd fair in Pakistan's harsh environment. The jf-17 blk 4 (which is still in the drawing board) will most certainly see improvements in the engine department, and PAF Is said to be evaluating the Russian RD-93MA, perhaps if the WS-10B offers good results to PAF, they may be inclined to go straight Chinese.


----------



## Trailer23

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> View attachment 815669
> 
> 
> 21 guests 👀





Trailer23 said:


> Nice to see so many Members - in all the hype.
> 
> View attachment 815653
> 
> [par kon hai ye *14 mehmaan*?]​


It was 14 a while back.

Looks like some people are taking an interest.

Wo Maj. Gobar bhee hoga idr.

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## Aesterix

Salza said:


> During Musharaf days, it was offered but no minister that time claimed it like the way SR did it on Dec 28,2021. Moreever, PAF was getting Block 52s that time so there was no need for the J10A back than and most of our money was going into JF17s program nor India was getting anything like Rafales that time. Mind you, if we had a continued supply of F16s especially block 72s than PAF would had not opted for J10Cs at all.


Musharraf started all this. He went to visit J-10 factory. But asked China to provide the jet only with Chinese engines. Likewise agreed to participate financially in R&D costs. 
Then came democracy. Zardari gobbled up 60% of PAF budget .
Pakistan failed to participate financially. 
China failed to build jet engine.



Trailer23 said:


> It was 14 a while back.
> 
> Looks like some people are taking an interest.
> 
> Wo bharwa (Maj. Gobar Arya) bhee hoga idr.


He has lots of support among PMLN ,Maryam Nawaz social media gang.
They quote him abundantly on their social media handles.


----------



## Bleek

siegecrossbow said:


> Chinese military fans already excited about Pakistanis J-10C performing at Zhuhai 2022, possibly...


When is the date?


----------



## hussain0216

Flight of falcon said:


> Went to sleep last night and some members were still spreading gloom and doom doubting anything is coming and claiming even if true old planes will be inducted etc.
> 
> Those members should be given punishments by changing their profile pictures to this :
> 
> View attachment 815616



Or like this

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## MIRauf

kursed said:


> Thankfully the Chinese engine got confirmed. Next I believe you’d find that IRST on it too.
> 
> The bird didn’t lose any systems for Pak.


That is what i was trying to find in the posted images / pictures, alas images not the right angle to validate it.

PS: Congratz / Mubarek PAF and you 'ol.

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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> So the dorsal EW antenna is missing. I don’t think it is too big a dea since J-10C’s prototype didn’t have it either, meaning that it could be added in a later upgrade.




EW? Seems as if the datalink antenna is missing?!

But since the PAF has it’s own datalink called Link Green 17, this eventually will be installed in PAC?






By the way ...

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## NA71



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## RAMPAGE

That Guy said:


> Perhaps the pick of a ws-10b engine is also a test to check the reliability of Chinese engines, and how they'd fair in Pakistan's harsh environment. The jf-17 blk 4 (which is still in the drawing board) will most certainly see improvements in the engine department, and PAF Is said to be evaluating the Russian RD-93MA, perhaps if the WS-10B offers good results to PAF, they may be inclined to go straight Chinese.


Was a JF17 blk4 confirmed by the PAF?


----------



## siegecrossbow

NA71 said:


> View attachment 815686



Isn't Turkey already integrating AESA onto their block 52s? I don't see what J-10C adds to the game.

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## The SC



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## NA71

Turkey would go for J10C... With Turkish avionics suite....


----------



## Princeps Senatus

Where will we base them ? Kamra? Sargodha? Jacobabad?

Kamra or Sargodha make sense if they are to directly counter Rafale at Ambala AFS. Besides we already supposedly have the Block 52s at Jacobabad. Kamra seems to be the most likely choice. Sargodha would be interesting though.

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## CrazyZ

Aesterix said:


> Musharraf started all this. He went to visit J-10 factory. But asked China to provide the jet only with Chinese engines. Likewise agreed to participate financially in R&D costs.


Agreed. PAF pulled the trigger on J-10 once it was confident with Chinese engines. 



NA71 said:


> Turkey would go for J10C... With Turkish avaonics suite....


I heard rumors that Turkey was considering joining Pakistan in developing a JF-17B4.

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## NA71



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## siegecrossbow

The SC said:


> View attachment 815685
> 
> 
> View attachment 815687



The model got it right down to the dorsal antenna!

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## arslank03

shofotolavski said:


> View attachment 815563
> 
> 
> New aircraft of Pakistan Air Force have flown from China to Pakistan




There are test flights. A ferry flight would have meant tanks.

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## python-000

Windjammer said:


> Please remember Sheikh Rasheed for breaking this news first.
> This is for him.
> 
> View attachment 815602


LONG LIVE FOR PAKISTAN & CHINA FRIENDSHIP...

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## Deino

NA71 said:


> View attachment 815691




Since when has the WS-10B a dry thrust of 125 kN??

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## ghazi52



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## Bleek

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 815694


Halal dragon celebration song

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## python-000

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493557514075447298


Finally the Cat come out from the bag...

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## siegecrossbow

Zarvan said:


> Guys use these pictures and post them on twitter and tag Indian journalists and veterans specially Gobar Arya and Shiv Aroor and Vishnu Som and Rahul Kanwal and Gaurav C sawant and others



Shouldn't you wait till Surprise Day 2.0?

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## NA71

Deino said:


> Since when has the WS-10B a dry thrust of 125 kN??


Boss let us celebrate 🎉 with little pinch of fake content.... Our adversary likes fake information, news and analysis.

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## White and Green with M/S

python-000 said:


> Finally the Cat come out from the bag...


Don't trust some Twitter account

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## Deino

Just something else ... so far this is still called J-10CP based on the J-10CE, but IMO the "J"-designation is unlikely since it is a PLAAF designation. So what will they be called or will they be simply J-10CP?

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## SABRE

Aesterix said:


> Musharraf started all this. He went to visit J-10 factory. But asked China to provide the jet only with Chinese engines. Likewise agreed to participate financially in R&D costs.
> Then came democracy. Zardari gobbled up 60% of PAF budget .
> Pakistan failed to participate financially.
> China failed to build jet engine.
> 
> 
> He has lots of support among PMLN ,Maryam Nawaz social media gang.
> They quote him abundantly on their social media handles.



Musharraf visited CAC. Chinese offered the J-10 and Musharraf tentatively agreed to buy around 36 aircraft. From the little bit I have learned from the "people of knowledge and experience" the air force stood back. J-10A's configuration did not fulfil the PAF's requirement. Then there was the issue of Russian engines. And, the US funds could not be diverted to acquire the Chinese jets. PAF agreed only after J-10C's configuration fulfilled some of the crucial requirements.

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## iLION12345_1

Deino said:


> Just something else ... so far this is still called J-10CP based on the J-10CE, but IMO the "J"-designation is unlikely since it is a PLAAF designation. So what will they be called or will they be simply J-10CP?


I mean if history is anything to go by F-10? 
Though I think it might just be referred to as J-10C in the PAF too.

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## Deino

White and Green with M/S said:


> Don't trust some Twitter account




In the same way, don't trust to some members here regardless their former credibility who claimed they know it better and promised them to be AL-31FN powered!

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## NA71

Deino said:


> In the same way, don't trust to some members here regardless their former credibility who claimed they know it better and promised them to be AL-31FN powered!



I only posted.... "AL-31FN"....

Now I am adding.... AL-31FN will not be used in PAF JS-10😂😂😂😂😂

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## ghazi52

iLION12345_1 said:


> I mean if history is anything to go by F-10?
> Though I think it might just be referred to as J-10C in the PAF too.



Just like SU series.

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## NA71

ghazi52 said:


> Just like SU series.


 It will remain as J-10C.....

On Twitter, Indians have started spreading disinfo... Calling it downgraded version.....

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## Ali_Baba

The history of any airforce is defined by the fighter jets it has operated and does so currently - and today is the start of a new more visible era in the PAF of the new king - J10 and long may it reign !!!

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## kursed

Deino said:


> In the same way, don't trust to some members here regardless their former credibility who claimed they know it better and promised them to be AL-31FN powered!


It just didn’t make any sense for PAF to wait for the Chinese to offer a superior configuration of J-10 and opt for an inferior engine. 

Even without background knowledge. It made zero sense.

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## Deino

NA71 said:


> I only posted.... "AL-31FN"....
> 
> Now I am adding.... AL-31FN will not be used in PAF JS-10😂😂😂😂😂




It wasn't you I had in mind ... it was a certain senior member who also claimed, the JF-17 Block 3 would have major changes on the rear-fuselage and a differen ts wing with higher or at least different aspect ratio.



kursed said:


> It just didn’t make any sense for PAF to wait for the Chinese to offer a superior configuration of J-10 and opt for an inferior engine.
> 
> Even without background knowledge. It made zero sense.




Agreed, but this certain member said so ...

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Just something else ... so far this is still called J-10CP based on the J-10CE, but IMO the "J"-designation is unlikely since it is a PLAAF designation. So what will they be called or will they be simply J-10CP?



If it goes by the old designation it would be FC-20C.

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## iLION12345_1

siegecrossbow said:


> If it goes by the old designation it would be FC-20C.


That’s also possible given F-16 > JF-17 > FC-20 within the PAF makes a proper lineage.

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## Adios Amigo

Deino said:


> It wasn't you I had in mind ... it was a certain senior member who also claimed, the JF-17 Block 3 would have major changes on the rear-fuselage and a differen ts wing with higher or at least different aspect ratio.



And CFTs already been developed and used.

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## Riz

Adios Amigo said:


> And CFTs already been developed and used.


On blk 3 ?


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## arjunk

It's not FC-20 or F-10.

It's SJ-10PC

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## Scorpiooo

Its will be J10C or J10CP nothing else

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## kursed

Just hope they don’t call it F-10. Too many Islamabadi memes.

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## That Guy

RAMPAGE said:


> Was a JF17 blk4 confirmed by the PAF?


Officially? No, but there have been rumors and talks about it.


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## Raja Porus



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## Mentee

@Deino , brother , plz confirm that its the Pakistani j10 . iamma take anyone else's claim with a pinch of salt.

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## Deino

Riz said:


> On blk 3 ?




No, this member claimed, they were "developed and used" on J-10s, however we haven't seen a CFT on any J-10 not even on a testbed, so it is IMO most unlikely.



Mentee said:


> @Deino , brother , plz confirm that its the Pakistani j10 . iamma take anyone else's claim with a pinch of salt.




It is ... indeed it is my friend and as expected powered by WS-10B engines!

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## The Eagle

Relocation of antennas is what we call tailor made for PAF. Not just the link but....

And indeed, as we thanked before so again, thanks to our Chinese friends for walking extra miles and understanding the need as per modern warfare given PAF experience and reputation. 

Not just PAF, but PLAAF will also enjoy the fruits and many more of new things will reach to J-20 as well.

It's not just J-10 coming to PAF but, world sees it indeed a worthy opponent given the induction by an air force like PAF. Previously, it was seen merely a PLAAF bird and with biased but now, it has certificate as well. A testimony of J-10 joining Superior club given PAF access to western and eastern tech at a time.

Congrats Pakistan 🇵🇰 🇨🇳 China

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## Mentee

Deino said:


> It is ... indeed it is my friend and as expected powered by WS-10B engines!



No my query was aimed at the jangi jahaz , fighter jet , Is it ours ? 

Like our very own j10 ?

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## Deino

Mentee said:


> No my query was aimed at the jangi jahaz , fighter jet , Is it ours ?
> 
> Like our very own j10 ?




Pardon ... I don't understand your question or post?

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## Windjammer

The Eagle said:


> Relocation of antennas is what we call tailor made for PAF. Not just the link but....
> 
> And indeed, as we thanked before so again, thanks to our Chinese friends for walking extra miles and understanding the need as per modern warfare given PAF experience and reputation.
> 
> Not just PAF, but PLAAF will also enjoy the fruits and many more of new things will reach to J-20 as well.
> 
> It's not just J-10 coming to PAF but, world sees it indeed a worthy opponent given the induction by an air force like PAF. Previously, it was seen merely a PLAAF bird and with biased but now, it has certificate as well. A testimony of J-10 joining Superior club given PAF access to western and eastern tech at a time.
> 
> Congrats Pakistan 🇵🇰 🇨🇳 China


It is also worth pointing out that while the JF-17 is a joint venture and was specifically designed around PAF's requirements, the J-10 is first all Chinese combat aircraft to be inducted by the PAF after over 30 years, the last being the F-7s which were first acquired in the late 80s.

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## Flight of falcon

Mentee said:


> No my query was aimed at the jangi jahaz , fighter jet , Is it ours ?
> 
> Like our very own j10 ?




No it’s Chinese fighter Uber service 😡

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## Al_Muhannad

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 815694


Apparently, one can draw peacocks perfectly.

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## Areesh

Mentee said:


> No my query was aimed at the jangi jahaz , fighter jet , Is it ours ?
> 
> Like our very own j10 ?



No it belongs to Wakanda

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## That Guy

Deino said:


> Just something else ... so far this is still called J-10CP based on the J-10CE, but IMO the "J"-designation is unlikely since it is a PLAAF designation. So what will they be called or will they be simply J-10CP?


My guess would be FC-10


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## Aesterix

Deino said:


> Pardon ... I don't understand your question or post?


Probably asking about Pakistan specific alterations in the jet?

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## Windjammer



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## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 815722


Suits the occasion just fine...

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## kursed

I believe they’d be called J-10 in PAF service.

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## maverick1977

More info and details 






Military Watch Magazine







militarywatchmagazine.com

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## Burhan Wani

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 815722


The first one is already in Pakistan, as per my sources. 😊

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## AeroEngineer

kursed said:


> I believe they’d be called J-10 in PAF service.


Pakistan has mostly followed the USAF which follows the 1962 US Tri service designation system where F denotes Fighter. So could be F-10 instead of J-10. J denotes Jian which in Chinese designation stands for Fighter. JF-17 has been a departure. Q-5 were translated under the same scheme to A-5 in PAF service with A designating Attack.

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## Great Janjua

I mean if PAF likes and therefore invests in the J-10c it could turn out to be a success story. The starting key would be an integration of local weapons be it from the dumb bombs to Raad cruise missiles if PAF makes this platform as its own it is worth 2 Rafaels in the bush.



Mentee said:


> No my query was aimed at the jangi jahaz , fighter jet , Is it ours ?
> 
> Like our very own j10 ?


Yes mentee my friend our very own.


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## RAMPAGE

That Guy said:


> My guess would be FC-10


What sort of improvements are you expecting?


----------



## monitor

*J-10C serial no. 22-102 of Pakistan Air Force.




*

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## The Eagle

monitor said:


> *J-10C serial no. 22-102 of Pakistan Air Force.
> View attachment 815733
> *



@siegecrossbow you can see the 2nd antenna. Wait for it

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## siegecrossbow

The Eagle said:


> @siegecrossbow you can see the 2nd antenna. Wait for it



I was just going to comment on it! The arrangement is similar to what we see on JF-17 block III.

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## ziaulislam

Ali_Baba said:


> The history of any airforce is defined by the fighter jets it has operated and does so currently - and today is the start of a new more visible era in the PAF of the new king - J10 and long may it reign !!!


Indians classofy the600- 700 j10s in PLAAF as mig21s

You cabt expect them to classify it as rafale otherwise they will pass out of the shockong difference between PLAAF and IAF



Scorpiooo said:


> Its will be J10C or J10CP nothing else


Js-10

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## jupiter2007

The Terminator said:


> Sheikh started to say "JS-10" now he said "G-10C". I hope he would eventually learn the correct name by the time they would be flying at 23rd March parade day.




He calls our President "RF Elvi" instead of Arif Alvi. What do you expect from him?


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## maverick1977

Hamsae mulk may flashing news anay wali hay, "Pakistan kee aik aur napaak sajish"

ROFL !

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## Aesterix

monitor said:


> *J-10C serial no. 22-102 of Pakistan Air Force.
> View attachment 815733
> *


That's some good detective work.

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## baqai

Trailer23 said:


> Suits the occasion just fine...



one of my ever favorite song and perhaps one of the best drum riffs till now

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## Basel

Deino said:


> Just something else ... so far this is still called J-10CP based on the J-10CE, but IMO the "J"-designation is unlikely since it is a PLAAF designation. So what will they be called or will they be simply J-10CP?



Previously PAF named FC-20 to J-10A version it was interested in.


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## TNT

So finally we can talk about J10C in Pakistan and not have a guy calling it rumor and demanding solid proofs lolz.
By the way it maybe inducted as F10P.

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## BoggedDown

I was talking about J10 in PAF since many years, finally proved right. PAF had eye on J10 for long but only issue was engines as putting all engines from Russia was deemed too risky so waited when Chinese alternative got matured enough.

My wish for future CAC and PAC collaborate to develop a silenet version of J10 if not full stealth with single WS-15 engine but side intakes and incorporate as much subsystems and avionics as possible from J20. So it will be a medium weight single engine semi stealth air superiority with secondary role of striker. And it will superb if it can have an internal bay for two bvraam and at least one air launch cruise missile with a small or tactical nuclear war head. May be I am asking too much.

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## Ali_Baba

Being reported in the wider press now : 









China’s First Export J-10 Multi-Role Fighters For Pakistan Emerge (Updated)


The long-anticipated Pakistani order for the J-10 is widely seen as a counter to India’s new Dassault Rafale fighters.




www.thedrive.com


----------



## Trailer23

Ali_Baba said:


> Being reported in the wider press now :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China’s First Export J-10 Multi-Role Fighters For Pakistan Emerge (Updated)
> 
> 
> The long-anticipated Pakistani order for the J-10 is widely seen as a counter to India’s new Dassault Rafale fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedrive.com


When are they going to report it next door & mention that their MIGHTY Rafales can do this & do that...?


----------



## CHI RULES

The no of J10 c being procured shall also be interesting as if we get only 25 then in short for defensive role may suffice the requirements but in medium term we may need more as India is actually getting not 36 Rafales only they are expected to procure more.

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## Bilal.

CHI RULES said:


> The no of J10 c being procured shall also be interesting as if we get only 25 then in short for defensive role may suffice the requirements but in medium term we may need more as India is actually getting not 36 Rafales only they are expected to procure more.


What would be interesting is with all the new orders for Rafale from other countries creating a big backlog. When india does put an order for more, what would be the delivery time frame for them? Probably next decade?

In the meanwhile if our J10 inventory build up reaches higher then their Rafales it will be competely blunted.

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## Big_bud

luciferdd said:


> It's 100% WS-10B,the same to the one in serviced in PLAAF recently.
> View attachment 815596
> 
> View attachment 815597
> View attachment 815598




So are we getting thrust vectoring with this engine? Is it WS10 or WS10B? I hope it has TVC!


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## siegecrossbow

Basel said:


> Previously PAF named FC-20 to J-10A version it was interested in.



I was hoping that they call if FC-20C. Some Western journos would get confused and say that China is exporting J-20C to Pakistan and Bhakts would go ballistic on twitter.

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## Aesterix

TNT said:


> So finally we can talk about J10C in Pakistan and not have a guy calling it rumor and demanding solid proofs lolz.
> By the way it maybe inducted as F10P.


I will call it اڑن کھٹولا
Try and stop me 😁

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## BoggedDown

Though I was hoping for J10D version but current situation around need urgent attention so J10C would do.


----------



## TheDarkKnight

@Ark_Angel @PanzerKiel @kursed @Chak Bamu @JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Rafi 
Thanks to these gentlemen for consistently providing reliable and unbiased news related to Pakistani defense matters way before it came to public light. Keep up the good work and continue sharing responsibly despite the repeated frustrating rants from some juvenile members.

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## Falcon26

AeroEngineer said:


> Pakistan has mostly followed the USAF which follows the 1962 US Tri service designation system where F denotes Fighter. So could be F-10 instead of J-10. J denotes Jian which in Chinese designation stands for Fighter. JF-17 has been a departure. Q-5 were translated under the same scheme to A-5 in PAF service with A designating Attack.



JF-17 is not a departure as it stands for Joint Fighter.

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## Ali_Baba

Now that PAF has finally commited to the J10C, it has bought into the infrastructure and support ecosystem for it, it does mean that when the J10D is unveiled(there will be one - i dont think China is done innovating the J10 series ) then Pakistan can buy a batch of those and get the incremental growth in new technology it needs.

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## TsAr

Burhan Wani said:


> The first one is already in Pakistan, as per my sources. 😊


Only Oneeee......what about NIB

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## Aesterix

BoggedDown said:


> Though I was hoping for J10D version but current situation around need urgent attention so J10C would do.


I want the Z version. Nothing less

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## Trailer23

siegecrossbow said:


> ...and Bhakts would go ballistic on twitter.


Man that statement coming from you, is equally as funny as your Avatar.

Chinese people referring to Indians as _'Bhakts'_.

#Classic

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## Burhan Wani

TsAr said:


> Only Oneeee......what about NIB


Under devlopment.

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## Bossman

My


satyamev said:


> We are all waiting eagerly for the j10 to reach Pakistan.
> The flyover should be with complete missile load . That will be a incredible sight.
> Was reading that the Pakistan version will be called f10p. What's the difference from the Chinese verion ? Engine? Avionics ? Armaments





Windjammer said:


> View attachment 815636
> View attachment 815636





Burhan Wani said:


> The first one is already in Pakistan, as per my sources. 😊


If they are flying over the hump, they will not fly alone so I am sure it’s more than one.


----------



## ziaulislam

This also means end of an era for f16s
No more f16 will come even if they are offered now(an impossibilty)

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## aziqbal

Congrats 

how many have been spotted and which squadron is taking them ?

and whoever said it marks the end of the F16 it defiantly doesnt

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## ghazi52



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## White and Green with M/S

aziqbal said:


> Congrats
> 
> how many have been spotted and which squadron is taking them ?
> 
> and whoever said it marks the end of the F16 it defiantly doesnt


J-10C will replace mirages not F-16 of PAF


----------



## GriffinsRule

Shabi1 said:


> "Pakistan contributed greatly to the J/F-7M program: although Pakistan did not purchase any F-7M and *later returned all 20 F-7M's to China after evaluation* to require China to provide a better fighter (which eventually resulted in F-7MP and F-7P), Pakistan did provide important support for F-7M program, after the then Vice Chief of the Air Staff of Pakistani Air Force (PAF) Air marshal Jamal A. Khan inspected prototypes in test flights in July 1983 at Dalian. Pakistani contribution includes:"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List of Chengdu J-7 variants - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 815560


Unfortunately there is no citation for that statement on wiki so it's not necessarily accurate.
I will take a peak at the PAF official history books to see if there is any mention of this. Also given that there are no dates makes it even more suspect. What were the serial numbers on those jets? Etc etc


----------



## hussain0216

Project Azm or any 5th gen induction is many years away and we won't push or force ourselves until our enemies are almost ready to induct also

With no F16s coming a combination of JF17s and J10c are a perfect combo going forward



There was a question about whether J10c's would come at all, but now that they are here I expect a initial induction of 36 which will gradually grow alongside JF17s to anywhere between 50 and 100


I don't think the Indians can keep pace with the Raphael's especially with other buyer's

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## Sayfullah

Will Pakistan be integrating Raad on it?


----------



## Aesterix

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 815636
> View attachment 815636


PLAAF seems to have both versions. The one with single big antenna and the one with two big antennas on the spine.
It seems more like a function of engine used , instead of a tailor made ammendment for Pakistan. 

Look here.

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## Deino

Big_bud said:


> So are we getting thrust vectoring with this engine? Is it WS10 or WS10B? I hope it has TVC!




It is the WS-10B like in all current J-10Cs but not the TVC WS-10B-3 as in none J-10C yet,



Aesterix said:


> PLAAF seems to have both versions. The one with single big antenna and the one with two big antennas on the spine.
> It seems more like a function of engine used , instead of a tailor made ammendment for Pakistan.
> 
> Look here.
> 
> View attachment 815772




No, the one on top is a „C“ and as such has like all Cs these three antennas and the one on the bottom is the very first B with an early configuration

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## Aesterix

Deino said:


> It is the WS-10B like in all current J-10Cs but not the TVC WS-10B-3 as in none J-10C yet,


And why this jet will need TVC?
More moving parts, means more points of failure and higher maintenance costs, and down time.

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## iLION12345_1

Bilal. said:


> What would be interesting is with all the new orders for Rafale from other countries creating a big backlog. When india does put an order for more, what would be the delivery time frame for them? Probably next decade?
> 
> In the meanwhile if our J10 inventory build up reaches higher then their Rafales it will be competely blunted.


Very important point you’ve raised here actually, India might have made a major mistake in this regard, I’m not sure if they’ve already placed a follow up order for more Rafales after their initial 36, but if they haven’t then they won’t be getting any more till *post 2027* due to all the other countries that have made their orders. This could be a very major factor in defining the future of air power in the region. Again, this all depends on wether india has already made a follow up order or not.



Aesterix said:


> And why this jet will need TVC?
> More moving parts, means more points of failure and higher maintenance costs, and down time.


Where did he say that it needs or has TVC.

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## Aesterix

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Will Pakistan be integrating Raad on it?


Why not?



iLION12345_1 said:


> Very important point you’ve raised here actually, India might have made a major mistake in this regard, I’m not sure if they’ve already placed a follow up order for more Rafales after their initial 36, but if they haven’t then they won’t be getting any more till *post 2027* due to all the other countries that have made their orders. This could be a very major factor in defining the future of air power in the region. Again, this all depends on wether india has already made a follow up order or not.
> 
> 
> Where did he say that it needs or has TVC.


Others said. Not him.

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## iLION12345_1

Big_bud said:


> So are we getting thrust vectoring with this engine? Is it WS10 or WS10B? I hope it has TVC!


There are no J10Cs with TVC nor does WS10B (the engine likely to be present in PAFs J10s) have TVC. That’s the WS-10-B3 and it’s not in service. PAFs J10s will not have TVC.



Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Will Pakistan be integrating Raad on it?


Unlikely, not the role it’s going to serve in. JF17s will carry Ra’ad. J10 is not replacing mirages, it’s complementing F16s to free up JF17s (older blocks) to replace mirages. New JF17s will replace F7PGs.

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## Aesterix

iLION12345_1 said:


> There are no J10Cs with TVC nor does WS10B (the engine likely to be present in PAFs J10s) have TVC. That’s the WS-10-B3 and it’s not in service. PAFs J10s will not have TVC.


With 5th generation High off bore missiles, the jet doesn't need TVC in offensive role.
Not sure about defensive or evasive situation when a SAM is on the tail.


----------



## Deino

Aesterix said:


> And why this jet will need TVC?
> More moving parts, means more points of failure and higher maintenance costs, and down time.




It does not, in fact I say since weeks if not months this is a ridiculous idea, but still some naive fan-boys here constantly hope it will and claim it would have.

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## Bossman

ziaulislam said:


> This also means end of an era for f16s
> No more f16 will come even if they are offered now(an impossibilty)


Don’t count them out. If surplus F16s with MLU are offered PAF will pick them up very fast. Even with the new JF17s and J10s, there are another 100+ obsolete aircraft mostly Mirages that need replacement. F16s might still be the best option.

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## Blueskiez 2001

Blueskiez 2001 said:


> J-10c



My qualified quess was J-10c on the 3rd august 2020....

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## Bilal.

iLION12345_1 said:


> Very important point you’ve raised here actually, India might have made a major mistake in this regard, I’m not sure if they’ve already placed a follow up order for more Rafales after their initial 36, but if they haven’t then they won’t be getting any more till *post 2027* due to all the other countries that have made their orders. This could be a very major factor in defining the future of air power in the region. Again, this all depends on wether india has already made a follow up order or not.
> 
> 
> Where did he say that it needs or has TVC.


I don’t think a follow up order has been placed by india.


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## Trailer23

Bilal. said:


> I don’t think a follow up order has been placed by india.


Not yet it hasn't.

Plus there is a matter of Rafales OR F-18 Block III for their Navy.

Currently the figure of 25 is rumored for J-10's. However, some have stated the number to go up between *50 to 100*.

I can honestly say that *50* is the number I got. Anyone else out there that can shed some light on the orders...

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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> Not yet it hasn't.
> 
> Plus there is a matter of Rafales OR F-18 Block III for their Navy.
> 
> Currently the figure of 25 is rumored for J-10's. However, some have stated the number to go up between *50 to 100*.
> 
> I can honestly say that *50* is the number I got. Anyone else out there that can shed some light on the orders...


50 is the number I heard as well, based on a very recent deal. Financed by loans from the Chinese.

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## Aesterix

Blueskiez 2001 said:


> My qualified quess was J-10c on the 3rd august 2020....


Ofcourse...

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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> Not yet it hasn't.
> 
> Plus there is a matter of Rafales OR F-18 Block III for their Navy.
> 
> Currently the figure of 25 is rumored for J-10's. However, some have stated the number to go up between *50 to 100*.
> 
> I can honestly say that *50* is the number I got. Anyone else out there that can shed some light on the orders...


I think 50 is probably right
This will keep the numbers at 125 frontline and 200-250 jf17s

I still beleive PAF will keep mirage V in 1-2 squardons for strategic role

They will probably stay till 2030

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## AeroEngineer

Falcon26 said:


> JF-17 is not a departure as it stands for Joint Fighter.


Departure in the sense of nomenclature scheme. In the standard scheme the letter preceding the main mission designation, denotes modified mission such as UH-1 Huey where U stands for utility and H for Helicopter. I know the background why it’s named JF-17. I was just pointing out that from typical PAF practice of following US scheme, it was a departure

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## Clutch

Deino said:


> No, this member claimed, they were "developed and used" on J-10s, however we haven't seen a CFT on any J-10 not even on a testbed, so it is IMO most unlikely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is ... indeed it is my friend and as expected powered by WS-10B engines!
> 
> View attachment 815719



How do know it the WS-10B?


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## jaybird

Clutch said:


> How do know it the WS-10B?



WS-10B engine have more of a silver color and different petal compared to AL-31F.

Anyone who doubted Shaikh Rasheed Ahmed and Zarvan must apologize now. They are proving right this time.

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## 帅的一匹

BoggedDown said:


> I was talking about J10 in PAF since many years, finally proved right. PAF had eye on J10 for long but only issue was engines as putting all engines from Russia was deemed too risky so waited when Chinese alternative got matured enough.
> 
> My wish for future CAC and PAC collaborate to develop a silenet version of J10 if not full stealth with single WS-15 engine but side intakes and incorporate as much subsystems and avionics as possible from J20. So it will be a medium weight single engine semi stealth air superiority with secondary role of striker. And it will superb if it can have an internal bay for two bvraam and at least one air launch cruise missile with a small or tactical nuclear war head. May be I am asking too much.


A single engine design stealthy fighter powered by WS15 is the way to go of PAF in the future. I think PAF will strengthen its cooperation with CAC even further.

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## ahtan_china

The engine/WS-10 is made in China is OK for J-10CP
巴基斯坦歼-10CP来了，涂装国旗都已经上了！国产太行发动机，全国产配置
即将交付巴基斯坦的歼-10CP终于出现了，垂直尾翼上刷有巴基斯坦国旗和机号。不过从涂装整体效果来看和国内使用的歼-10C基本一致，国旗机号都做了低可视处理。3月23日的就是巴基斯坦国庆阅兵了，之前说这批歼-10C将亮相阅兵，还有一个月多一点的时间，进度也是比较紧张，还有后期培训什么的。
和“枭龙”的“拼凑”不同，歼-10CP用的是国产WS-10“太行”发动机，而且之前航空工业航宇集团为巴基斯坦空军进行过弹射座椅培训。也就是说出口的歼-10CP全国产化而非巴基斯坦进行了选配。

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## Aesterix

These are mos5 likely to join NO.7 and No.15 squadrons, the bandits and cobras ( although I rather have them named more desi or islamic).
These will replace Mirages , not F-16 .
So most likely will get equipped with Raad ALCM.

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## Bleek

What 5th generation does everyone think India will go for? Domestic or Russian? Or perhaps American?


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## Zarvan

siegecrossbow said:


> Shouldn't you wait till Surprise Day 2.0?


The pictures are already out. On 27th Feb when we would reveal them INSHALLAH Indian media will for sure report then also


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## JohnWick

Finally since F-16 pakistan has a fighter jet.... Which can easily comparable and greater in some capabilities to any indian plane !

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## PakFactor

JohnWick said:


> Finally since F-16 pakistan has a fighter jet.... Which can easily comparable and greater in some capabilities to any indian plane !



Kaiser Tufail said the J-10 is comparable to our Block 50/52 we have.
I see strong potential for upgrade down the road as the Chinese mature this fighter or add on tech.


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## JohnWick

PakFactor said:


> Kaiser Tufail said the J-10 is comparable to our Block 50/52 we have.
> I see strong potential for upgrade down the road as the Chinese mature this fighter or add on tech.


J-10c remember the "C" variant is comparable to F-16V block 72 and
1 Has a bigger engine
2 DSI intakes
3 Delta wings Although conventional configuration has also its benefits
4 NO STRING ATTACHED like that of embargoed !

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## PakFactor

JohnWick said:


> J-10c remember the "C" vairiant is comparable to F-16V block 72 and
> 1 Has a bigger engine
> 2 DSI intakes
> 3 Delta wings Although conventional configuration has also its benefits
> 4 NO STRING ATTACHED like that of embargoed !



No, he specifically stated its not beyond Block 50/52. It's just not about bigger engine, DSI, etc.

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## ARMalik

NA71 said:


> Turkey would go for J10C... With Turkish avionics suite....


*
Not a chance at this stage.* The Chinese are not going to give away their back-bone fighter to people (turks) they do not trust.

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## JohnWick

PakFactor said:


> No, he specifically stated its not beyond Block 50/52. It's just not about bigger engine, DSI, etc.


Pardon me but From 1999 to 2014 these kind of PAF officers turn our Air air force into a sitting duck with no BVR capabilities.... J-10 is far greater than block 52....J-10 is available from 2004.... what they have done.... You mean Angels come to help us in a war ? As they did in 1971 ? Thats why PAF mentality also need an overhaul which thanks to Allah Almighty As J-10 acquisition shows it changed ! You can't fight with out weapons !

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## Zarvan

PakFactor said:


> No, he specifically stated its not beyond Block 50/52. It's just not about bigger engine, DSI, etc.


J-10 C is similar to F-16 Block 72 or F-16 Block 60 of UAE. It has powerful AESA radar better avionics and also weapons package.

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## The SC

J-10C is an advanced fourth-generation aircraft that is equipped with a very advanced radar that supports AESA technology and an awesome armament package that includes BVR air-to-air missiles, air-to-surface missiles and bombs of different sizes and guidance..It also uses advanced Chinese-made WS-10B Taihang engines..

China has hundreds of J-10s and it is definitely not a logistical burden as it is better than the F-16 Block 50 in addition to being from Chinese stock and therefore at a very good price and open source, so Pakistanis can integrate their own munitions as well.. A J-10C flight costs are low and is suitable for working alongside JF-17 Block 1, 2 and 3.

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## Zarvan

Trailer23 said:


> Not yet it hasn't.
> 
> Plus there is a matter of Rafales OR F-18 Block III for their Navy.
> 
> Currently the figure of 25 is rumored for J-10's. However, some have stated the number to go up between *50 to 100*.
> 
> I can honestly say that *50* is the number I got. Anyone else out there that can shed some light on the orders...


Initial order is of 36 but news are already coming of we increasing the order to 54.

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## Aesterix

The SC said:


> View attachment 815814
> 
> 
> J-10C is an advanced fourth-generation aircraft that is equipped with a very advanced radar that supports AESA technology and an awesome armament package that includes BVR air-to-air missiles, air-to-surface missiles and bombs of different sizes and guidance..It also uses advanced Chinese-made WS-10B Taihang engines..
> 
> China has hundreds of J-10s and it is definitely not a logistical burden as it is better than the F-16 Block 50 in addition to being from Chinese stock and therefore at a very good price and open source, so Pakistanis can integrate their own munitions as well.. A J-10C flight costs are low and is suitable for working alongside JF-17 Block 1, 2 and 3.


What's the payload capacity of J-10C,? Can't find a credible answer. Any ideas?


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## arjunk

JohnWick said:


> .. J-10 is far greater than block 52.


And I suppose you have access to the classified radar and missile material to come to this conclusion?


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## PakFactor

Aesterix said:


> What's the payload capacity of J-10C,? Can't find a credible answer. Any ideas?





arjunk said:


> And I suppose you have access to the classified radar and missile material to come to this conclusion?



I don't know what to say, I was being helpful to them.

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## kursed

The bit about J10Cs being roughly equivalent of Block 52s is funny. That's all. =)

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## Aesterix

kursed said:


> The bit about J10Cs being roughly equivalent of Block 52s is funny. That's all. =)


Why?
Block 52 has 7.7 tons of payload capacity. 
Why do you think J-10c will have lesser?


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## JohnWick

arjunk said:


> And I suppose you have access to the classified radar and missile material to come to this conclusion?


Sorry I was wrong
Go and try to beg us even a 40 years old F-16 Block 15 !

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## TheDarkKnight

kursed said:


> The bit about J10Cs being roughly equivalent of Block 52s is funny. That's all. =)


Funny in which way? J10 is below f16 or above?


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## JohnWick

TheDarkKnight said:


> Funny in which way? J10 is below f16 or above?


Above

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## satyamev

congrats.


ARMalik said:


> *Not a chance at this stage.* The Chinese are not going to give away their back-bone fighter to people (turks) they do not trust.


the j10c which is claimed to be equivalent to the f16 52 is the backbone of the Chinese airforce ? The f16 52 variant came in the 90s ?
The AESA in the j10 must be giving it a leg up to the f16 ?

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## kursed

Aesterix said:


> Why?
> Block 52 has 7.7 tons of payload capacity.
> Why do you think J-10c will have lesser?


Block 52 has its own role to play, but tip of the spear thing will go to 10Cs. The long sticks are being added to the arsenal for a good reason.

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## Aesterix

kursed said:


> Block 52 has its own role to play, but tip of the spear thing will go to 10Cs. The long sticks are being added to the arsenal for a good reason.


It's another thing that zero block 52 were used during operation swift retort. All were older B versions.

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## kursed

Aesterix said:


> It's another thing that zero block 52 were used during operation swift retort. All were older B versions.


The first deployment of J-10 will clarify a lot about their position within the force.

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## Raider 21

Aesterix said:


> It's another thing that zero block 52 were used during operation swift retort. All were older B versions.


They were used, just not in that area

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## Aesterix

Raider 21 said:


> They were used, just not in that area


Yes...only one was used, which was shot down by Abhinandan 😏

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## The SC

Aesterix said:


> What's the payload capacity of J-10C,? Can't find a credible answer. Any ideas?


It has an estimated empty weight of 8850 kg and maximum weight of 19277 kg..

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## bananarepublic

Bajwa uncle or hadsome imran khan. 
Abhi J-20 bhi dilado, wese bhi pak cheen bhai bhai hai na. 
Would be a sight to see J-20s converging on India from East and North of its border.

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## RealNapster

Mohsin123 said:


> Donot want to sound negetive but there is no confirmation of this possibility from the circles that matter. ISPR only had a veiled responce over this issue. Sheikh Rasheed is in no way a credible source for this kind of information. Even the MoD has not even confirmed this news. Sheikh Rasheed in my opinion was just trying to score some political points against Rafale and S-400 induction by IAF. Maybe later there is something planned as a stopgap measure. But for 23rd March i would not be too eager, may be a flypast of Block IIIs but who knows!!!!!!



Do you believe now ??


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## NA71

ARMalik said:


> *Not a chance at this stage.* The Chinese are not going to give away their back-bone fighter to people (turks) they do not trust.











Will Turkey Seek Chinese Or Korean Fighters If F-16 Request Is Denied?


If Turkey continually refuses to compromise with the U.S. and NATO on the S-400, its F-16 fleet will inevitably suffer the consequences.




www.forbes.com


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## Raider 21

Aesterix said:


> Yes...only one was used, which was shot down by Abhinandan 😏


Ohaha.....and I thought my jokes were bad...

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## Zarvan

J-10 C is way above F-16 Block 52 that is the very reason we went for J-10 C. Other wise we would have remain stuck to F-16 and produced more JF-17 BLOCK III

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## HRK

jaybird said:


> Anyone who doubted Shaikh Rasheed Ahmed


Actually Shaikh Rasheed is a politician and like many politicians he has his fair share of his idiocies and number of haters as well.

BTW Shaik Rasheed was the first one who at the time of F-16 purchase did the same stunt, _he was the one who in an interview announced its agreement even before the announcement from US and Pakistani governments_, he was Information Minister at that time and he specifically mention not only F-16 purchase but their corresponding blocks as well.

He is among one of few Politicians in Pakistan who have interest in defence systems but lack knowledge and understanding in these matters.

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## Bleek

PakFactor said:


> Kaiser Tufail said the J-10 is comparable to our Block 50/52 we have.
> I see strong potential for upgrade down the road as the Chinese mature this fighter or add on tech.


Link please? Does he have a Twitter?


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## ARMalik

NA71 said:


> Will Turkey Seek Chinese Or Korean Fighters If F-16 Request Is Denied?
> 
> 
> If Turkey continually refuses to compromise with the U.S. and NATO on the S-400, its F-16 fleet will inevitably suffer the consequences.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com



It is _*"Turkey Seeking" Chinese fighters *_*- it does not mean that the Chinese would sell*. Chinese DO NOT have the same strategic partnership with Turkey as they do with Pakistan. Only until recently, Turkey was supporting Uighur separatists movements in China. 
​

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## TIIIIG BR

MH.Yang said:


> More Than This.
> From 2004 to 2015, only 308 J10A&J10S were manufactured in 11 years.
> J10C has manufactured 700 aircraft in six years from 2015 to 2021. That shows that PLA is satisfied with J10C performance.


Truth is that the total number of J10/J10A/B/C/S is 500-700.The PLA has more than 200 J10C now actually.


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## Deino

Back to the J-10C ... according to my information, the first two for the PAF will fly to Pakistan today. Right that moment a PLAAF Bombardier business jet has arrived at Chengdu factory airport and both J-10CPs have been seen with fuel tanks installed.

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## GumNaam

The Fierce Dragon is here...😎

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493576783026868224


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## serenity

ARMalik said:


> *Not a chance at this stage.* The Chinese are not going to give away their back-bone fighter to people (turks) they do not trust.



J-11B is still PLAAF's backbone fighter. They are being mid life upgrade to J-11BG with AESA radar from the J-11D radar program. Not the same unit since that radar was said to be one of the reasons why J-11D kept getting delayed until J-20 around 2016 and 2017 initial trials before induction proved that 5th generation is so much more effective.

Basically around 2010 the J-20 program was already in testing phase. But it was nowhere near service yet (7 years away from service back in mid to late 2010). J-16 was a program to combine the excellent payload and range of flanker with multirole aspect learned from Su-30 examples. Basically the PLAAF wanted a multirole Su-30 but much more advanced avionics integrated well with future PLAAF. This means total CEC and other networking of sensors to weapons. Of course AESA and superior avionics from 1990s types. But this was multirole with focus on air to ground mission.

J-11D was the high tier fighter to replace the J-11B which then was the PLAAF's crown air superiority fighter still in 2010. J-20 was unproven at that point and China always hedges everything and has many paths explored, picking only best path after total consideration for budget and requirements when things become clearer. They didn't know in 2010 just how good J-20 would be and had three paths - Su-35, J-11D, J-20.

Su-35 contract discussed around then as a hedge against J-11D. J-11D program itself did not deliver what PLAAF desired. Something capable of countering F-22 and F-35 of future warfare. The radar which was China's first gen AESA was not as impressive as even J-10B and then C's. It kept getting lukewarm reception from PLAAF and I think around mid 2010s PLAAF thought they should slow down J-11D program since Su-35 signed, J-20 development progressing at desired speed and looks promising. J-10C by then also was doing well as the low tier more budget friendly backbone fighter as updates from J-10B were significant. J-16 itself was also proving to be a good air superiority fighter although not as dedicated due to having equipment weight and space used for air to ground tasks.

So J-11D again lukewarm to cold when the thinking after J-20 proved so much better than 4.5 gens meant PLAAF budget direction invested totally in 5th generation and beyond (as the work never stops) and with J-16 and J-10C production then already starting to get more matured and faster. Su-35 proved underwhelming and while a good hedge bet in 2010, no more is needed even for studying and evaluating supermaneuverability of Russian top fighter.

J-11D's program means lower level project and funding for mid life upgrade of J-11B. Get AESA and integration with PL-10 and PL-15. This enhances the existing airframes since they are good for another 10+ years for most of them and AESA + PL-15 + PL-10 just these alone is quite a massive improvement in overall combat capability of J-11B. Calling it J-11BG (G for improved or evolved where the Japanese word Kaizen comes from Chinese Gaizhen's G).

So basically they recycled J-11D work and modernized that further where necessary and used more modern available electronics I guess.

J-10 has always been second tier and budget fighter. The numbers are far greater than J-11 due to faster production rate and cheaper purchase price but it is definitely less sensitive technologically than sino flankers like J-16, J-16D, J-15A, J-15D, and possibly even J-11BG. J-11BG is technically more modern now than J-10C as J-10C is now 7 years old.

I don't think China would have much issue selling a non-PLAAF version of J-10CE to Turkey. At most, even if almost the same as PLAAF's version, they will have dedicated people watching the aircraft. Of course it is still sensitive just like the USA would not like China having total access to even F-15C or F-16 block 52, despite nothing worth really adopting, but it reveals details which you can exploit to defeat it better. After all China does use hundreds of J-10C and these will continue to be in service for at least another 30 years until last produced airframes go through their lifecycle.

It is simply between the very sensitive and getting obsolete enough to not worry that much where simply making sure adversary do not get any info is enough security.



kursed said:


> The bit about J10Cs being roughly equivalent of Block 52s is funny. That's all. =)



Block 52 is indeed much worse than J-10C. It would be more comparable to J-10B but even J-10B has a first generation AESA radar (or a PESA no one online is 100% certain still). Block 52 radar is simply far too antiquated to be competitive. Radar is but one proportion of the matrix of capability but it is a very important one when we're talking about such a capability gap between pulse doppler and AESA. No matter how good and perfect a pulse doppler radar is, the difference between the two is like abacus and a silicon chip computer. I don't care how good and well made an abacus is but any electronic computer is going to be more effective at performing calculations. Pulse doppler radar in 4.5 gen and 5th gen fighting is like going to a machine gun and sniper fight using a hammer.

Not only is Block 52 F-16 totally obsolete simply because of radar alone, it cannot even compete individually against any AESA using fighter. Not to mention more modern 4.5 gen fighters come with far superior missiles with much better electronics and seekers for countering electronic attack methods and decoys. 1990s missiles are similarly almost useless. PLAAF use older missiles that are obsolete as shooting practice. Every unit has to go because they are useless like how a pentium 3 computer is now useless no matter how nice it was in the early 2000s.

However this doesn't mean all 4th generation fighters are useless. Fighters are part of a network. The network itself still can make effective use of totally obsolete fighters based on the supporting structure. If we are talking just three block 52 vs three JF-17 block 3 with PL-15 and PL-10, JF-17 wins 100% every single time. There is simply no physically possible way the block 52nwithout modifications can have a chance. Or indeed a 1990s Su-27SK with original R-77 has no chance against a JF-17 with AESA and modern missiles but the Su-27 is a much better performer in almost every single important way.

Where these fighters can have use is if they are supported by 4.5 and 5th generation plus other things like AWACS and dedicated EW aircraft. With relatively cheap simple upgrades, 4th generation fighters have useful enough datalinks and can even be part of CEC network.

As for F-16 vs J-10 platform, they both have similar lift and drag, but F-16 carries slightly more. However, both have very similar wet thrust but J-10 with either AL-31 or WS-10 has slightly weaker military thrust than F-16's F110. This is partly why F-16 is allowed to carry a bit more but also could be because the calculations PLAAF and CAC did for how they want to use J-10 means they do not think it's appropriate to overload the J-10 since the more you carry, the lower your energy anyway and your range is almost exponentially decreased for every gram carried over a certain amount not counting drag. So USA mission planning is more carrying out war against low tier adversary with very little they can use to threaten and take out US supply line and mission planning logistics. While Chinese planning is more about how to counter a technological peer adversary with slightly superior equipment but lower numbers in regional war. The emphasis then shows that US wants their F-16 to carry more and do damage against adversary that cannot threaten the F-16 effectively where the F-16 also has mission support and many tankers and bases they can use. It does not require weapons to be launched with a bit more energy since adversary cannot counter anyway and range is fine since adversary cannot attack supply lines at all.

PLAAF wants J-10 to have more energy and launch weapons at higher energy state, since likely adversaries are all technologically strong and have means to counter weapons and attack logistics and supply lines. Therefore the gearing between the two shows here despite wet and military thrust, lift and drag being pretty much equal but weapons capacity different.

There is no issue for J-10 to lift the same payload weight as F-16. However heavier loads mean you have less range, struggle to climb as high and as quickly. Launch weapons at much lower energy state. The calculation would be about finding the perfect balance and PLAAF and CAC clearly consider for J-10 mission profiles, this is the balance point. With Pakistan, range is not so much an issue but energy always is. Heavy load means much slower and flying lower altitude until at least firing a lot of those weapons. I don't think war load is really ever near the full capacity of a fighter. It's usually always three tanks and something like four medium missiles and 2 short missiles for air to air even for fighters like F-16 and Rafale which can be fit with much more. In reality, they almost never because it costs too much energy for those first few missiles to basically be total wastes.

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## PakFactor

Bleek said:


> Link please? Does he have a Twitter?



It’ was a private conversation with him.

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## Bleek

PakFactor said:


> It’ was a private conversation with him.


If the J-10C is comparable to our Block 52 that must mean the JF-17 Block 3 is still not as capable otherwise we would have just produced more of them 🤔


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## Riz

bananarepublic said:


> Bajwa uncle or hadsome imran khan.
> Abhi J-20 bhi dilado, wese bhi pak cheen bhai bhai hai na.
> Would be a sight to see J-20s converging on India from East and North of its border.


Yeh sab mian nawaz sharif ki mehrbani ha bhai

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## Deino

Green shirt123 said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-10H - Carrier Variant
> 
> 
> The first test flight of the J-10 came in 1996 with the help of a Russian made AI-31FN turbofan engine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.globalsecurity.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to this website J10C and J10B are similar apparently,only difference is that J10C has a two knife antennas are added to the back.So are we getting B🥺?*




What?? ...







But at least they quote my image

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## V. Makarov

Pratt and Whitney confirmed, Alhamdullilah! ✌️

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## sneakerspark

Deino said:


> Back to the J-10C ... according to my information, the first two for the PAF will fly to Pakistan today. Right that moment a PLAAF Bombardier business jet has arrived at Chengdu factory airport and both J-10CPs have been seen with fuel tanks installed.


Last time they arrived for Shaheen Exercise, their flight path crossed my residence. I think it's time to take my camera out for good.

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## NA71

Deino said:


> Back to the J-10C ... according to my information, the first two for the PAF will fly to Pakistan today. Right that moment a PLAAF Bombardier business jet has arrived at Chengdu factory airport and both J-10CPs have been seen with fuel tanks installed.


Sir on which side of the boundary wall your are currently located on Chengdu factory site?

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## Deino

V. Makarov said:


> Pratt and Whitney confirmed, Alhamdullilah! ✌️
> 
> View attachment 815846




Pratt and Whitney ? ... if you link it back to an US engine, then it would be General Electric, since the WS-10 is allegedly based on the CFM-56's core

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## NA71

Deino said:


> Pratt and Whitney ? ... if you link it back to an US engine, then it would be General Electric, since the WS-10 is allegedly based on the CFM-56's core



Thanks God he didn't mention Suzuki Engine .....

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## Chak Bamu

Deino said:


> Pratt and Whitney ? ... if you link it back to an US engine, then it would be General Electric, since the WS-10 is allegedly based on the CFM-56's core


Its a joke - poking fun at the poor quality picture.

I don't think information about departure of J-10Cs for Pakistan should be shared in real time.

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## GumNaam

PakFactor said:


> Kaiser Tufail said the J-10 is comparable to our Block 50/52 we have.
> I see strong potential for upgrade down the road as the Chinese mature this fighter or add on tech.


did he say J10 in general or did he specifically say J10C? cuz the J10Cs are far superior to the F16 block 52s on account of HMDS/HOBS AAMs, AESA radar with PL15 AAMs and a fully integrated IRST alone.

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## Areesh

Only thing left to be confirmed is IRST

Is it present on Pakistani J10C or not?


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## GumNaam

Areesh said:


> Only thing left to be confirmed is IRST
> 
> Is it present on Pakistani J10C or not?


IRST is standard on all J10Bs and Cs.

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## Beast

If its Chinese engine for J-10CE then it shall be new bird. Rather than stock plane from PLAAF.

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## Goritoes

America made a big mistake of baring PAF from additional F-16's, they could easily release the remaining F-16's block 52's which would give America leverage over Pakistan when ever and if they need it, they still have it in many other systems which is in used of Pakistan Armed forces, but here I must say that America did a terrible mistake by losing a critical ally because of a idiotic and incapable Ally (India), now Chinese has give PAF AESA equipped Fighter jets with Pl-15's, PAF's love and interest in F-16's will diminish even further.

But Its finally here and that's all it matters, next Air engagement with IAF will glue French and Chinese along with the rest of the world because the stakes from countries just now get a lot higher, just imagine if a J-10 gets a kill of Rafale or Su-30MKI how bad it would be for those fighters and how good it would be for J-10-s future Export orders. So many Sad news coming from Home but finally some good news.

Sorry Mods can't help it, Pakistani's after J-10 Arrival be like...

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## NA71

Goritoes said:


> America made a big mistake of baring PAF from additional F-16's, they could easily release the remaining F-16's block 52's which would give America leverage over Pakistan when ever and if they need it, they still have it in many other systems which is in used of Pakistan Armed forces, but here I must say that America did a terrible mistake by losing a critical ally because of a idiotic and incapable Ally (India), now Chinese has give PAF AESA equipped Fighter jets with Pl-15's, PAF's love and interest in F-16's will diminish even further.
> 
> But Its finally here and that's all it matters, next Air engagement with IAF will glue French and Chinese along with the rest of the world because the stakes from countries just now get a lot higher, just imagine if a J-10 gets a kill of Rafale or Su-30MKI how bad it would be for those fighters and how good it would be for J-10-s future Export orders. So many Sad news coming from Home but finally some good news.



For realistic analysis, how would you see Rafale gets a kill of J-10C ? (for a moment, leave PAF OR IAF thing)


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## Beast

NA71 said:


> For realistic analysis, how would you see Rafale gets a kill of J-10C ? (for a moment, leave PAF OR IAF thing)


Like how some brag MKI will dominate Indo-Pakistan aerial battle only to get disappointed? We all know how BARS radar are overestimated. We can forsee its coming for Rafale too!

J-10 KJL-10 AESA t/r 1200 vs Rafale RBE2 AESA t/r 800 modules.

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## Goritoes

NA71 said:


> For realistic analysis, how would you see Rafale gets a kill of J-10C ? (for a moment, leave PAF OR IAF thing)


It would be opposite of what I wrote, but to a extend Rafale sells might not increase because countries that are usually buy Rafale don't consider Chinese Tech to be not as mature as French, I mean ask any Indian and he'll tell you how Chinese Technology is Junk and Rafale is some god sent Alien tech, The reason why I only mentioned the probability of J10 shooting a Rafale, was because if that really happen the world will get a rude awakening who use to mock Chinese Technological Advancements and say they are not comparable to west, yes we can say PAF pilots are better trained than Indian ones etc but in the end the machine will get its due credit, so does its manufacturer and the pilot.

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## NA71

Goritoes said:


> It would be opposite of what I wrote, but to a extend Rafale sells might not increase because countries that are usually buy Rafale don't consider Chinese Tech to be as mature as French, I mean ask any Indian and he'll tell you how Chinese Technology is Junk and Rafale is some god sent Alien tech, The reason why I only mentioned the probability of J10 shooting a Rafale, was because if that really happen the world will get a rude awakening who use to mock Chinese Technological Advancements and say they are not comparable to west, yes we can say PAF pilots are better trained than Indian ones etc but in the end the machine will get its due credit, so does its manufacturer and the pilot.


Perfect.

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## Zarvan

It's time to dance. Good they start to arrive. They should fly over Islamabad before reaching their base. In fact fly over Indian embassy that would be fun

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## MH.Yang

Goritoes said:


> America made a big mistake of baring PAF from additional F-16's, they could easily release the remaining F-16's block 52's which would give America leverage over Pakistan when ever and if they need it, they still have it in many other systems which is in used of Pakistan Armed forces, but here I must say that America did a terrible mistake by losing a critical ally because of a idiotic and incapable Ally (India), now Chinese has give PAF AESA equipped Fighter jets with Pl-15's, PAF's love and interest in F-16's will diminish even further.
> 
> But Its finally here and that's all it matters, next Air engagement with IAF will glue French and Chinese along with the rest of the world because the stakes from countries just now get a lot higher, just imagine if a J-10 gets a kill of Rafale or Su-30MKI how bad it would be for those fighters and how good it would be for J-10-s future Export orders. So many Sad news coming from Home but finally some good news.
> 
> Sorry Mods can't help it, Pakistani's after J-10 Arrival be like...



We know that PAF is not in urgent need of fighters, CAC also has no shortage of orders, PLAAF has no shortage of funds.
If CAC and PAF are not sure to can shoot down Rafale with J10C, they will continue to wait.




BTW: Because of the great advantages of radar and missile, the air combat capability of J10C is undoubtedly better than F16b50 / 52.
However, F16b50 / 52 has more powerful versatility, and the low altitude maneuverability of F16b50/52 should also be stronger than that of J10C, so the two fighters are at the same level.

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## SIPRA

NA71 said:


> Thanks God he didn't mention Suzuki Engine .....



...... OR Honda CD70.

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## Tameem

Goritoes said:


> America made a big mistake of baring PAF from additional F-16's, they could easily release the remaining F-16's block 52's which would give America leverage over Pakistan when ever and if they need it, they still have it in many other systems which is in used of Pakistan Armed forces, but here I must say that America did a terrible mistake by losing a critical ally because of a idiotic and incapable Ally (India), now Chinese has give PAF AESA equipped Fighter jets with Pl-15's, PAF's love and interest in F-16's will diminish even further.
> 
> But Its finally here and that's all it matters, next Air engagement with IAF will glue French and Chinese along with the rest of the world because the stakes from countries just now get a lot higher, just imagine if a J-10 gets a kill of Rafale or Su-30MKI how bad it would be for those fighters and how good it would be for J-10-s future Export orders. So many Sad news coming from Home but finally some good news.
> 
> Sorry Mods can't help it, Pakistani's after J-10 Arrival be like...



Governing US becoming more tough day by day, Some presidents and pentagon specially wants to keep that leverage with Pakistan but there senate doesn't, and no president finds himself strong enough or the courage to bypass senate on its own now a days. The American decline will have a fear share of its stupid senate and that history will remember.

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## NA71

latest tweet suggesting:

"First units of Pakistan Air Force #J10C Aircraft will possibly conduct ferry flights from Chengdu in China to Kamra in Pakistan, today."

Can't post tweet as per rules.

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## Goritoes

MH.Yang said:


> We know that PAF is not in urgent need of fighters, CAC also has no shortage of orders, PLAAF has no shortage of funds.
> If CAC and PAF are not sure to can shoot down Rafale with J10C, they will continue to wait.


You are to emotional to understand my post, so I will just ignore and Pass on.



Tameem said:


> Governing US becoming more tough day by day, Some presidents and pentagon specially wants to keep that leverage with Pakistan but there senate doesn't, and no president finds himself strong enough or the courage to bypass senate on its own now a days. The American decline will have a fear share of its stupid senate and that history will remember.


Lobbies, Its always Lobbies that will win you stuff or make you lose stuff from Washington. Right now Indian, Lobbies are doing their job well or lets say better than Pakistan, the thing is that Indian are not alone in this as most of Jewish Lobbies will obviously take sides of Indians as they see Pakistan as a potential enemy.

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## Aesterix

V. Makarov said:


> Pratt and Whitney confirmed, Alhamdullilah! ✌️
> 
> View attachment 815846


Meanwhile Tejas tied to a rock....with a yellow rope. Only in India 🤣🤣

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## MH.Yang

Aesterix said:


> Meanwhile Tejas tied to a rock....with a yellow rope. Only in India 🤣🤣
> 
> View attachment 815857



Why tie it to a rock?
Can the Tejas become a robot to escape?

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## SQ8

Tameem said:


> Congratulations to PAF, J10C with WS10B engine, swash plate AESA and many more goodies will be treat to watch.
> By the way....Where is our Airforce expert..... Mr. @SQ8 .........He seeems not too happy on this issue here, hiding somewhere under F16 wings may be....
> F16 Dominance era is about to end in PAF.....Very SAD, he needs to move forward and welcome the development i/o worshipping his ego like always.


Poor nooni corrupt family man trying his best to make a crow out of imaginary feather.

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## serenity

MH.Yang said:


> Why tie it to a rock?
> Can the Tejas become a robot to escape?



Wind can actually lift it off its tires a little bit in extremely strong wind. That could move it around potentially. Imagine a flat cardboard box in the wind. The amount of lift is beyond what most people think it is. Same as designing a ceiling to a building. The wind force is actually intense. Tornadoes often rip entire roof structure off buildings just by some motion through slight cracks in door gaps.

But in this case they have done it wrong. If they wanted to use this method (heavy concrete block) then they need ideally two points in for example 60 degrees apart with tension in the rope. This slack and only one point doesn't do anything except if the wind creates motion in the perfect direction - secured point and cylinder block.

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## satyamev

Bleek said:


> Why is there a massive red dildo mounted on the middle of the jet? What exactly does the IAF intend to do with this creation?
> 
> 
> So it doesn't fly away
> 
> Indian AI is at another level


you do realize that is a self goal ?



Goritoes said:


> America made a big mistake of baring PAF from additional F-16's, they could easily release the remaining F-16's block 52's which would give America leverage over Pakistan when ever and if they need it, they still have it in many other systems which is in used of Pakistan Armed forces, but here I must say that America did a terrible mistake by losing a critical ally because of a idiotic and incapable Ally (India), now Chinese has give PAF AESA equipped Fighter jets with Pl-15's, PAF's love and interest in F-16's will diminish even further.
> 
> But Its finally here and that's all it matters, next Air engagement with IAF will glue French and Chinese along with the rest of the world because the stakes from countries just now get a lot higher, just imagine if a J-10 gets a kill of Rafale or Su-30MKI how bad it would be for those fighters and how good it would be for J-10-s future Export orders. So many Sad news coming from Home but finally some good news.
> 
> Sorry Mods can't help it, Pakistani's after J-10 Arrival be like...


I thought usa has just stopped free supply of arms to Pakistan. Pakistan can always buy with cash.

Like the rest of the world.


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## kursed

So, now that the birds are coming home - here's what I do believe will happen (this is my opinion - might not be fact).

Until now, Shaheen Ex have paid specially attention to MKIs. And how to take them down. This will soon add Rafale to the mix, as PAF increases weapon commonality (JF and J10C a la PL-15) with PLAAF . I would then find it excruciatingly hard to believe that they will not share electronic intelligence (sigint) on the IAF bird and meteor, from wherever they could glean it.

They more info they share, the probability of PAF and PLAAF taking down a common adversary goes up, as much. And with more birds and weapons now being shared between the two airfares, it only makes more sense.

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## Mohsin123

RealNapster said:


> Do you believe now ??


First of all I never said that J10cs are not coming i only said it will be confirmed once we get some leaked proof or lets say some leaked tender notices, as was the case with VT4 or SH15 or HQ-9, in the past as with the case with big ticket acuasitions like new bathes of vipers and so on. So now we have proof so congrats a very nice capability enhancement for PAF!! 
May Allah put fear into the hearts of our enemies through this jet!!!! 
On a lighter note nowhere in the world it happens that a whole community starts jumping up and down and behaving like hooligans just because SR said so about a stretegic aquisition!!!


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## Aslan



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## NA71

MH.Yang said:


> Why tie it to a rock?
> Can the Tejas become a robot to escape?



Horses, Cows, goats are tied usually . ... so is Tejas in India


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## satyamev

NA71 said:


> Horses, Cows, goats are tied usually . ... so is Tejas in India


we are still predominantly a agricultural society.

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## serenity

satyamev said:


> Next time American warships violate Chinese waters near Taiwan, the Chinese airforce should test your theory out .
> A lot of western countries have been generously giving you a chance to show how much better these fighter jets are as compared to the shoddy western stuff. But your spokesman proves to be more active than your AF.



Maybe they can test out their "superior" stuff.

China gives them so many opportunities to start something. We'll wait for Taiwan to declare independence or for US and Japan to do something every time we violate Miyako Strait. China generously gives them ample opportunity to show off every time we fly through Taiwan and sail through Miyako Strait.

Also China is still waiting for India to block Malacca Strait. Ample opportunity for India but Indian mouths are busier than their muscles and brains.

The US wanted to create kinetic war instead of political war with China back in the late 2000s. Preparations and getting their media and population willing was done. China revealed A2AD weapons which made Obama engage only in political sphere with his pivot to Asia in a longer game of strategic influence over Asian nations. USA and China vying for regional influence through economic clout.

USA wanted to be able to counter ASBM. While they improved SPY-3 and SPY-6 with SM-6 and newer interceptors, China needed to upgrade A2AD as well and that came next decade in the form of HGVs and HCMs. Combined with much improved nuclear MAD options. The aim is to hold the military engagement back and not as option for US so they can only engage in political sphere. Over time, this is ineffective for US and economic warfare is where this war is fought and won unless US wants to go kinetic and die together. China's entire strategy is to simply prevent the US from having kinetic war option so that China's economy inevitably overtakes in time. Taiwan civil war issue will resolve itself once economic dominance secures military and then political dominance. Civil war reasons themselves are already over. Taiwan side wanted a strong China and now they already have it. Their original reasons and objections to CCP have already been resolved. The rest is simply overcome with one or at most two more generations. The older Taiwanese generation that fought and lived through the civil war wanted China to be nationalistic and strong. A superpower in the full sense not the indian way. They did not believe CCP could rule China well and make it into true power and restore Chinese influence and status. Now the trends and results even are clear to all who can view the world without delusion or misunderstanding. China is on the correct path and even its strategies employed to get there is passable despite faults and errors. Give it 10 years and what is obvious to us now will be more obvious to every observer. Give it 20 and the result of this struggle is clear to all. Give it 30 years and I would wager that the journey is complete.

In 30 years, India would either be partitioned and balkanized due to internal collapse from genuinely poor leadership (as opposed to only being criticized by its enemies of poor leadership like China), or in a similar state with even more poor and destitute people who are struggling as India's population still rises and then plateaus inevitably and eventually but the poor and rich divide in India will be even greater. There is a small chance that India has revolutions and begins a similar journey. All these things are natural forces. There is only so far the Indian resources can be used to keep things as they are and so far the downtrodden Indians will remain on their knees.

The engine of prosperity for China has ironically been a good form of well managed authoritarianism. If we didn't have that, we'd be like India. When the purpose of this authoritarianism is fulfilled, people naturally demand more rights and individual freedoms. At that point which is a few decades away, Taiwanese of that generation who are not even born yet would look to mainland far far more favorably. They will see little difference and the propaganda they are still fed now will seem out of place. By then if the mainland has improved social liberties, then the civil war issue would be resolved naturally.

The key is for PRC to finish its journey of development and progress of which it started in the 1970s and is only around half complete. Even at this less than half way mark, China is at its current form. As the journey completes, there would be far less requirement for the previous level of authoritarianism. Again the cycle means when those good rules are lifted slowly, people decline and society decays and the cycle continues to downfall. Good times create bad people, bad people create bad times, bad times create good people. In most cases when the people are naturally capable of even creating good times.

To use simple and overall quantitatively derived visual (as comprehensive, impartial, and accurate as possible by the American Ray Dalio). This is currently where nations now stand.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/big-cycles-over-last-500-years-ray-dalio






Just to zoom out in perspective.

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## ARMalik

Zarvan said:


> It's time to dance. Good they start to arrive. They should fly over Islamabad before reaching their base. In fact fly over Indian embassy that would be fun



Na dude, flying over indian embassy would be too Childish.

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## RealNapster

Mohsin123 said:


> First of all I never said that J10cs are not coming i only said it will be confirmed once we get some leaked proof or lets say some leaked tender notices, as was the case with VT4 or SH15 or HQ-9, in the past as with the case with big ticket acuasitions like new bathes of vipers and so on. So now we have proof so congrats a very nice capability enhancement for PAF!!
> May Allah put fear into the hearts of our enemies through this jet!!!!
> On a lighter note nowhere in the world it happens that a whole community starts jumping up and down and behaving like hooligans just because SR said so about a stretegic aquisition!!!



SR is your interior minister. SR also repeated himself twice. ISPR reply was also in lines of what SR said. Senator Aon Abbas also confirmed the same news atleast 1 week ago. 

Ab isky baad b agar community sceptical rahy to community ko littar marny chaahye.

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## SIPRA

NA71 said:


> Horses, Cows, goats are tied usually . ... so is Tejas in India



Shukar karain, kay iss Teja kay peechhay hull naheen jaut diya.

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## serenity

satyamev said:


> you are very paltu person.
> Using my logic against me. won't work.
> I was just trying to help your countryman, who is convinced that j10c is better than western jets. Proof of the pudding...
> Frankly it's a very intriguing question. Where does Chinese defense equipment stand in front of the western equipment ? Because the wars of the future will be between western vs Russian vs Chinese.
> A little conflict can be of quite useful in gauging where everyone stands.



Well this is like asking you to prove that Indian Rafale is superior to JF-17 block 3.

Rafale in IAF for some time now, no action despite tensions and even close to exchanges of fire on the ground at least. Much more tense and violent than Taiwan Strait has been between US and China.

IAF is convinced Rafale beats all even to suggest it can come to play with J-20. How come no action from India despite opportunities generously given to India to test your theory? You should remember that your Su-30MKI was defeated by JF-17 because it was unable to stop PAF strike package escorted by JF-17. Unable to defend Indian aircrafts and unable to attack PAF aircraft.

Where does Russian equipment stand in front of western equipment? Neither of them bother to find out either.

Where does western equipment stand in front of Chinese equipment. As Chinese have not made moves to find out, the West also has not made moves to find out. This logic of yours is a tautology but you fail to see how it flows many ways rather than just one.

Why don't you use your Rafales in a little conflict with PAF? Let's see where Rafale stands against JF-17 block I and II even.

Personally I like China's strategy. China wins as things are going. Even wins as the US and Europe heat things up for China. All it needs is no war and stability. War means distraction from the real goal, make your population truly productive and useful citizens. How to finish the journey I talked about earlier? Make sure the stupid devils do not get a chance to make war. Ensure their death and destruction if they do. Easily overcome all the worst they can throw at you which USA already has... full trade war they already lost and full tech war that is half effective but has not slowed China down and only served to mobilize and point out weaknesses in industry which is semiconductor foundry. This doesn't even slow China down so far in three years. The US fired 50% of their ammo and it was useless so they fired 99% of it now. Now they have no more trade war and conceded there but tech war is over as well. All the shots they can fire has been done.

Notice the only thing they are firing at China now is political in nature in forms of pathetic propaganda campaigns. Yet China is signing agreements left right and center with new partners. People and nations and leaders see the light. China is increasing exports and income YoY despite full trade and tech war bans. Personally I hope neither side go to war. This only hurts the common people who have fcking nothing to gain. If the US chooses to end everything with China, humanity can start again. We all know China is not interested in ending things. We are in the starting phase and barely even close to full potential. US is on the decline. Their society has cracked to its core. It is not the same as it was in the 1950s to 2000s.

China with the blessing of God, at the completion of its journey will finally resume its place and it's my hope it also improves itself as time goes on to be more worthy of the place. At this moment China is but less than 1/3 the potential of what it can be. Only $10,000 USD per capita roughly okay if adjusted for PPP and undervalued RMB China's more accurate GDP per capita is closer to $20,000. This is not much more than 1/3 what USA has. China is nearly 5 times the population but more than half are either retired now or above 50. In 30 years time, China's population is roughly 2/3 what it is now and if typical birth rates with development are anything to use, then possibly even 1/2. They are transitioning to autonomous and new paradigms of industry and moving up the value chain quite dramatically and quickly. In that time, far more resources are available to fewer people with far greater productivity per person and of course income not only due to lower population but higher value chain and new industries. At its peak, China's would be basically 2 to 3 times USA today at its peak. In 30 years, it is roughly got a population 700 million instead of 1.4 biillion+. In that time, USA will be roughly 400million. Both will be roughly equal (much more likely with China actually higher) in overall per capital productivity. USA will be much more multicultural and divided and filled with unnecessary conflict with more migration from culturally distinct places. I do not believe USA's overall productivity then will be comparable to how it was in the 1960s to 2000s era.

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## ARMalik

It looks like most of the members here and specially Chinese members agree that it is WS-10B engines in these J-10Cs. Not too long on this forum we had some high profile rumour spreaders on this forum talking about Russian Al-31s engines on J-10C !!!

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## satyamev

serenity said:


> Well this is like asking you to prove that Indian Rafale is superior to JF-17 block 3.
> 
> Rafale in IAF for some time now, no action despite tensions and even close to exchanges of fire on the ground at least. Much more tense and violent than Taiwan Strait has been between US and China.
> 
> IAF is convinced Rafale beats all even to suggest it can come to play with J-20. How come no action from India despite opportunities generously given to India to test your theory? You should remember that your Su-30MKI was defeated by JF-17 because it was unable to stop PAF strike package escorted by JF-17. Unable to defend Indian aircrafts and unable to attack PAF aircraft.
> 
> Where does Russian equipment stand in front of western equipment? Neither of them bother to find out either.
> 
> Where does western equipment stand in front of Chinese equipment. As Chinese have not made moves to find out, the West also has not made moves to find out. This logic of yours is a tautology but you fail to see how it flows many ways rather than just one.
> 
> Why don't you use your Rafales in a little conflict with PAF? Let's see where Rafale stands against JF-17 block I and II even.


their is currently peace between India and Pakistan. No border shooting, no artillery battles, negligible friction in kashmir. I think its difficult to recall such a peaceful time between the two countries. 
I personally am sure that India and Pakistan will come to blows in a few years. Because it's a negotiated peace for both sides to catch a breath and rearm . Nothing has changed in the respective positions. Claims have actually become more extreme with Imran laying claims to areas which were settled in 1947 , outside kashmir. 
The best test of a weapon system is in the hands of the original creator. A 3rd party user might be accused of being inefficient in its use.
I don't advocate a all out war , just a small skirmish like we had in 2019. Proved to be very useful for India. Our weaknesses in the electronic sphere were revealed. Imagine if with the same weaknesses, we had entered a major war ?


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## Mohsin123

RealNapster said:


> SR is your interior minister. SR also repeated himself twice. ISPR reply was also in lines of what SR said. Senator Aon Abbas also confirmed the same news atleast 1 week ago.
> 
> Ab isky baad b agar community sceptical rahy to community ko littar marny chaahye.


Well if sombody believes SR even if he is an IM after all his failed predictions ''dekho ji meri syasi baseerat kehti hai .....`` then no difference between dead brain political followers and them
Yahi sari quom lal haveli lay bahir election main bhangray dalay gi`` wazir azam sheikh rasheed, J10 lay kay aaya sii....``
If you want a political discussion lets move to another thread , let's not derail this thread


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## Talon

*VIPER SUPREMACISTS CELEBRATING J-10's ARRIVAL





*

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## serenity

satyamev said:


> their is currently peace between India and Pakistan. No border shooting, no artillery battles, negligible friction in kashmir. I think its difficult to recall such a peaceful time between the two countries.
> I personally am sure that India and Pakistan will come to blows in a few years. Because it's a negotiated peace for both sides to catch a breath and rearm . Nothing has changed in the respective positions. Claims have actually become more extreme with Imran laying claims to areas which were settled in 1947 , outside kashmir.
> The best test of a weapon system is in the hands of the original creator. A 3rd party user might be accused of being inefficient in its use.
> I don't advocate a all out war , just a small skirmish like we had in 2019. Proved to be very useful for India. Our weaknesses in the electronic sphere were revealed. Imagine if with the same weaknesses, we had entered a major war ?



Well Pakistan is heavily outgunned by India in sheer size of firepower. On the serious end of war, both have nuclear de-escalation mechanisms built into these conflicts with the hope that neither side is crazy enough to break those mechanisms.

So Pakistan knowing the obvious size difference, has emphasized other ways to try and counter. Like how Sweden has particular tactics and strategies to deal with Russia. These are generally effective in small conflicts as these are most useful at this scale as large conflicts have pure force overwhelming special advantages such as PAF's electromagnetic advantages over IAF in 2019.

You are right. India did notice the gap and the problem they have. This means Pakistan must go forward more (which costs resources) for showing its hand and giving India a lesson that was not expensive enough to justify to be honest. Now India knows, maybe it knows it needs to overcome this in xyz ways and surely works on it.

So you don't advocate for war but earlier you call for it for others.

I simply pointed out how you desire others to show their hand and prove themselves and also suffer the always negative consequences of war (even for victors there are negatives).

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## RealNapster

Mohsin123 said:


> Well if sombody believes SR even if he is an IM after all his failed predictions ''dekho ji meri syasi baseerat kehti hai .....`` then no difference between dead brain political followers and them
> Yahi sari quom lal haveli lay bahir election main bhangray dalay gi`` wazir azam sheikh rasheed, J10 lay kay aaya sii....``
> If you want a political discussion lets move to another thread , let's not derail this thread



Mere siyasi baserat kehti Hy is a way of saying as far as my experience goes. It is opinion. But when he says J-10 AA Raha flypast Hy he is stating a fact and a future planned event. Dono me farq Hy bhai

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## Bilal.

Hodor said:


> *VIPER SUPREMACISTS CELEBRATING J-10's ARRIVAL
> 
> View attachment 815868
> *


And calling it Block 52 equivalent:|


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## baqai

PakFactor said:


> No, he specifically stated its not beyond Block 50/52. It's just not about bigger engine, DSI, etc.



I think only AESA alone is enough to make it step above the Block 52s, correct me if i am wrong please

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## shofotolavski

Bleek said:


> Link please? Does he have a Twitter?








歼十啊，总能整点新花样~【亚洲特快】_哔哩哔哩_bilibili


巴基斯坦前两天确定了将会购买歼10的外贸型号，作为候选型号，今天我们就来聊聊歼10未来的发展可能性吧。, 视频播放量 767221、弹幕量 6216、点赞数 45735、投硬币枚数 5961、收藏人数 2914、转发人数 496, 视频作者 观察者网, 作者简介...




www.bilibili.com





Sorry this is a Chinese video for Pakistani friends who understand Chinese
Also, his audio program is worth listening to, one participant is a former employee of the intelligence service





观棋有语186：从乌克兰畅销到哈萨克的红色羽绒服_哔哩哔哩_bilibili


观棋有语186：从乌克兰畅销到哈萨克的红色羽绒服共计2条视频，包括：观棋有语186：从乌克兰畅销到哈萨克的红色羽绒服、音质修复等，UP主更多精彩视频，请关注UP账号。




www.bilibili.com





Professional military reporters' guesses about the future J-10 fighter upgrade plan:
1. Continue to improve the engine, the right amount of engine
2. Similar to the upgraded F-16 SLEP program that has been abandoned by the United States, using J-20's detection system technology, helmet-mounted display,
3. Open-architecture software system to quickly add new equipment
4. The above technology is to realize the function of information node, similar to the battlefield detection capability of F-35
5. Intelligently judge battlefield information, and can share information, attack without the guidance of ground troops, and can share targets to artillery
6. Because it is closer to the front line than the early warning aircraft, and has an advanced detection system, it can implement and update the battlefield situation
7. New external fuel tank (but it is likely not to be used, which will hurt high-speed performance)
8. There will be no twin-engine J-10 (the previous design has been scrapped)
9. The chief designer of J-20 said that "the design of J10 is too early, and there are regrets in terms of structure and materials". Maybe in the future, J-10 will further improve the structure and weight. If new materials and new structures are used to design it Possibly the highest thrust-to-weight fighter in the world
10. If the structure is redesigned, it may further improve the appearance of stealth
In addition, what was not mentioned in the video, the chief designer of the J-20 once said: In the way of improving the J20 in the future, small improvements will be marked according to batches, rather than giving him a new suffix. I guess, this already applies to the so-called future Chinese aircraft models.

Now Chinese state media reporters need approval from their units to open media accounts.
Active duty and retired military personnel also need the approval of the original unit to open media accounts and public lectures
So don't trust some self-media news

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## baqai

HRK said:


> Actually Shaikh Rasheed is a politician and like many politicians he has his fair share of his idiocies and number of haters as well.
> 
> BTW Shaik Rasheed was the first one who at the time of F-16 purchase did the same stunt, _he was the one who in an interview announced its agreement even before the announcement from US and Pakistani governments_, he was Information Minister at that time and he specifically mention not only F-16 purchase but their corresponding blocks as well.
> 
> He is among one of few Politicians in Pakistan who have interest in defence systems but lack knowledge and understanding in these matters.



i think the only interest he has is to have the aura of "know it all" around him so he is taken seriously by general public and media, he does a pretty darn good job at that too



NA71 said:


> Thanks God he didn't mention Suzuki Engine .....



woh bhi CNG par ... bhai patrol 160 ka hu giya hai


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## Mohsin123

RealNapster said:


> Mere siyasi baserat kehti Hy is a way of saying as far as my experience goes. It is opinion. But when he says J-10 AA Raha flypast Hy he is stating a fact and a future planned event. Dono me farq Hy bhai


You might have heard about a liar who cried ``sher aaya sher aaya`` or cried ``wolf!! wolf!!``. Its hard for me to believe a minister with countless failed truths under his belt for a stretegic prediction thats why skeptical till the end.


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## serenity

baqai said:


> I think only AESA alone is enough to make it step above the Block 52s, correct me if i am wrong please



It almost definitely is enough on its own to make it a step above block 52 since J-10 and F-16 mechanically are similar size with F-16 having slightly better max payload, Similar range. J-10 has slightly higher service ceiling. Both have similar enough sustained turn and roll rates and J-10 has slightly better instantaneous turning. Thrust to weight slightly favors F-16 especially in military thrust since it is a slightly smaller and lighter fighter.

Since mechanically and in terms of performance, both are quite similar within similar ranges and overall balance, the differences come in electronics. Block 52 is an old aircraft developed in the 1990s with 1990s era electronics and technology. J-10C developed in the 2010s. Nearly two decades in difference in software capability, sensor fusion, sensors and avionics. I don't think F-16 block 52 has much of a serious integrated EW suite like J-10C. At least the PAF would know all about JF-17, F-16 52, and J-10CE to have the most accurate knowledge of where each truly stand.

AESA is simply better in every single way to pulse doppler radar, and in most ways it is FAR superior. It has functions that pulse doppler physically cannot do. Like comparing incandescent lamp to LED to be used on a car for those functions. Pulse doppler fighter tactics are very different. AESA fighters can in some situations afford to switch radars on or do in bursts where fighter's software nowadays can make seriously good use of short time bursts of already low probability of signal interception. The variety of signal change and combination breaking and amplifying is horizons beyond PD radar. So this difference alone shifts the balance FAR in favor of modern AESA fighter over any PD fighter. 

A F-15C will have no hope in BVR against a JF-17 block 3. Zero chance. Yet one is certainly much more impressive in many ways than the other. J-10C in exercise even against J-11B in BVR has shown J-11B with a decade older avionics is no match for the modern fighter. Only after introducing wide range of supporting assets and new factors did J-11B turn the tide a little.

Now consider that F-16 block 52 is armed with 2000s era missiles. SD-10 may only be comparable to US 1990s and 2000s era AMRAAMs but PL-15 is something different. We are currently not sure if PL-15 sold to Pakistan is weakened export model or what. Since some suggest there may be a missing mid course guidance update equipment on PAF's new J-10CP, supposedly meaning that the PL-15 is PL-15E and restricted and the J-10CE/P sold is not including this for whatever reason. This is just a rumor and not proven at all though. But having said that, even with nerfed PL-15E, this is still vastly superior to the 1990s and 2000s era AIM-120. Let's just ignore this rumor though since I do not think PAF would agree to accepting a restricted and intentionally nerfed J-10CE and PL-15E if it is spending money unless the PLAAF's PL-15 is just that far ahead and true range and capability are too sensitive since it is currently the high tier missile in PLAAF. This is I think the only reason for if China has only allowed Pakistan to purchase a downgraded or changed PL-15E version just in case leaks from PAF to US allows US to know the full range of the same PL-15 used by PLAAF. Perhaps in exchange for any true downgrades, China offered the packages at a much more agreeable price.

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## Riz

Hodor said:


> *VIPER SUPREMACISTS CELEBRATING J-10's ARRIVAL
> 
> View attachment 815868
> *


you makes one patwari pajeet so angry


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## serenity

shofotolavski said:


> 歼十啊，总能整点新花样~【亚洲特快】_哔哩哔哩_bilibili
> 
> 
> 巴基斯坦前两天确定了将会购买歼10的外贸型号，作为候选型号，今天我们就来聊聊歼10未来的发展可能性吧。, 视频播放量 767221、弹幕量 6216、点赞数 45735、投硬币枚数 5961、收藏人数 2914、转发人数 496, 视频作者 观察者网, 作者简介...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bilibili.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry this is a Chinese video for Pakistani friends who understand Chinese
> Also, his audio program is worth listening to, one participant is a former employee of the intelligence service
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 观棋有语186：从乌克兰畅销到哈萨克的红色羽绒服_哔哩哔哩_bilibili
> 
> 
> 观棋有语186：从乌克兰畅销到哈萨克的红色羽绒服共计2条视频，包括：观棋有语186：从乌克兰畅销到哈萨克的红色羽绒服、音质修复等，UP主更多精彩视频，请关注UP账号。
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bilibili.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Professional military reporters' guesses about the future J-10 fighter upgrade plan:
> 1. Continue to improve the engine, the right amount of engine
> 2. Similar to the upgraded F-16 SLEP program that has been abandoned by the United States, using J-20's detection system technology, helmet-mounted display,
> 3. Open-architecture software system to quickly add new equipment
> 4. The above technology is to realize the function of information node, similar to the battlefield detection capability of F-35
> 5. Intelligently judge battlefield information, and can share information, attack without the guidance of ground troops, and can share targets to artillery
> 6. Because it is closer to the front line than the early warning aircraft, and has an advanced detection system, it can implement and update the battlefield situation
> 7. New external fuel tank (but it is likely not to be used, which will hurt high-speed performance)
> 8. There will be no twin-engine J-10 (the previous design has been scrapped)
> 9. The chief designer of J-20 said that "the design of J10 is too early, and there are regrets in terms of structure and materials". Maybe in the future, J-10 will further improve the structure and weight. If new materials and new structures are used to design it Possibly the highest thrust-to-weight fighter in the world
> 10. If the structure is redesigned, it may further improve the appearance of stealth
> In addition, what was not mentioned in the video, the chief designer of the J-20 once said: In the way of improving the J20 in the future, small improvements will be marked according to batches, rather than giving him a new suffix. I guess, this already applies to the so-called future Chinese aircraft models.
> 
> Now Chinese state media reporters need approval from their units to open media accounts.
> Active duty and retired military personnel also need the approval of the original unit to open media accounts and public lectures
> So don't trust some self-media news



The J-20's designer's hints imply that CAC has not changed J-10's core structural design and manufacturing since J-10A in point 9. At least not changed by much. I think he means also that the aerodynamic design of both J-10 main types (by geometry) control what materials and internal structures can apply. So even by the 2000s and 2010s when CAC was building and modifying J-20 prototypes, and materials and structural design has moved far ahead, they didn't bother applying those new technologies to J-10B and C. Most likely meaning even by production and completing development of J-10B, those new technologies were not matured enough to use on new production lines and methods. They then never spent the money and time to apply it to J-10 line, being happy with the speed and what the capability offers. Basically if some J-20 production technologies, materials, and internal structure design can be applied to J-10, it could offer J-10 far superior thrust to weight and general performance including payload possibly.

However it is clear that the external panels of B and C are different to A. At least the paint is but the surfaces are also smoother. This shows the production methods have upgraded at least for surface finish. For internal structure engineering, the FC-31 from SAC revolutionized some things with use of 3D printing bulkheads even back in 2011 when the prototype was built. The manufacturing processes of course is the invisible improvement. Same with rocket making and even HGV production, certain processes they say have been made far more efficient and allow high volumes of HGV production.

Similar to several hints given on revolutionary production methods for aircraft and rockets. We got those hints through the official cartoons that always leak shreds of information intentionally and at the recent Zhuhai airshow.

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## Areesh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493886996636336129
Yeh lo bhai. Qareeb sai dekh lo jahaz ko

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## Princeps Senatus

Aesterix said:


> Meanwhile Tejas tied to a rock....with a yellow rope. Only in India 🤣🤣
> 
> View attachment 815857


kayin bhag na jaye 🤣


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## Windjammer



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## RangeMaster

Areesh said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493886996636336129
> Yeh lo bhai. Qareeb sai dekh lo jahaz ko


IRST confirmation

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## serenity

WS-10B confirmed with those photos of PAF J-10CE/J-10CP. I guess we should call it J-10CP. Whether it is the same as J-10C or J-10CE we don't know. Maybe add some take some.

For sure, it has IRST and WS-10B. Not sure about one equipment that is revealed by spine antenna. Now the interesting question for this thread is how many units PAF bought. J-10CE is not a cheap fighter at all. With PAF also buying JF-17 block 3 and PL-15E and PL-10 on top for both these fighters, this is a lot of money spent! I would suggest that 5th generation funds would be relatively reduced as it has to be with any big spending. This could suggest that 5th gen is considered too far away to wait without having more capable and modern fighters. If 5th gen is closer to readiness for at least testing, then perhaps JF-17 block 3 alone is enough? Or Pakistan considers chance of skirmishes with India to be extremely high at least enough to need two new fighters.

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## Talon

Bilal. said:


> And calling it Block 52 equivalent:|





Riz said:


> you makes one patwari pajeet so angry

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## python-000

Areesh said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493886996636336129
> Yeh lo bhai. Qareeb sai dekh lo jahaz ko







apni apni methai utha lo bhaion...

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## Beast

serenity said:


> WS-10B confirmed with those photos of PAF J-10CE/J-10CP. I guess we should call it J-10CP. Whether it is the same as J-10C or J-10CE we don't know. Maybe add some take some.
> 
> For sure, it has IRST and WS-10B. Not sure about one equipment that is revealed by spine antenna. Now the interesting question for this thread is how many units PAF bought. J-10CE is not a cheap fighter at all. With PAF also buying JF-17 block 3 and PL-15E and PL-10 on top for both these fighters, this is a lot of money spent! I would suggest that 5th generation funds would be relatively reduced as it has to be with any big spending. This could suggest that 5th gen is considered too far away to wait without having more capable and modern fighters. If 5th gen is closer to readiness for at least testing, then perhaps JF-17 block 3 alone is enough? Or Pakistan considers chance of skirmishes with India to be extremely high at least enough to need two new fighters.


JF-17 Blk III cost USD 50 million each. So J-10CE definitely will cost more.

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## Ali_Baba

With these painted birds - looks like CAC test pilots have fully tested and we are now on the acceptance flights. If we are seeing 22-102 and 22-106 now - does seem to suggest that we may be borderline in having all 25 for the parade as was suggested.



Beast said:


> JF-17 Blk III cost USD 50 million each. So J-10CE definitely will cost more.



That would be the export price for JF17 Block III - right? - Not the "PAF price" which should be less.


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## satyamev

Beast said:


> JF-17 Blk III cost USD 50 million each. So J-10CE definitely will cost more.


no details of the deal out yet ? 
Pakistan airforce is very lucky that way. In India each and every bolts price would be discussed in 20 different committees for years and after procurement the CAG would take out the obligatory criticism of the purchase.

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## Zarvan

satyamev said:


> no details of the deal out yet ?
> Pakistan airforce is very lucky that way. In India each and every bolts price would be discussed in 20 different committees for years and after procurement the CAG would take out the obligatory criticism of the purchase.


On that I agree other wise you would have ordered 36 Rafale more by now in fact even on first time you would have ordered around 72. Still I think in the end Rafale would be 100 in number in IAF.


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## Talon

Ali_Baba said:


> With these painted birds - looks like CAC test pilots have fully tested and we are now on the acceptance flights. If we are seeing 22-102 and 22-106 now - does seem to suggest that we may be borderline in having all 25 for the parade as was suggested.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be the export price for JF17 Block III - right? - Not the "PAF price" which should be less.


Who said the pilots are Chinese?

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## Salza

Dragons have landed

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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> Who said the pilots are Chinese?


Wonder why PM Imran Khans escort video hasn't been released yet.

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## NA71

Salza said:


> Dragons have landed



Halal Dragons


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## Riz

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493882077422526467

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## NA71

the latest two picture are taken after they landed in Pakistan

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## cssniper

serenity said:


> So you don't advocate for war but earlier you call for it for others.
> 
> I simply pointed out how you desire others to show their hand and prove themselves and also suffer the always negative consequences of war (even for victors there are negatives).




Sir you are wasting your time on a keyboardman. 
That guy talked of war too easily, and thanks to God our countries are not run by these fools.

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## Zarvan

NA71 said:


> the latest two picture are taken after they landed in Pakistan


Which ones ?


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## satyamev

Zarvan said:


> On that I agree other wise you would have ordered 36 Rafale more by now in fact even on first time you would have ordered around 72. Still I think in the end Rafale would be 100 in number in IAF.


hope not . Too expensive. The french are rich enough. 
Just involve our private sector and kick HAL to the kerb. These guys will work their employees to the bone and collaborate with international companies where required. But in 2 years they will start churning out pretty ok mark 2s.
In India its impossible to make the public sector employees to work. They think they are doing everyone a favor by coming to office.


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## NA71

Zarvan said:


> Which ones ?

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## cssniper

Hodor said:


> *VIPER SUPREMACISTS CELEBRATING J-10's ARRIVAL
> 
> View attachment 815868
> *



Viper is an elegant bird always, I had a model of it during my childhood.

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## Windjammer

NA71 said:


> the latest two picture are taken after they landed in Pakistan





NA71 said:


> View attachment 815886


I doubt that... Transit flight without drop tanks.???

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## cssniper

NA71 said:


> View attachment 815886


But why aren't they carrying tanks?


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## NA71

Windjammer said:


> I doubt that... Transit flight without drop tanks.???


Again .....Chinese sources discussing


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## Zarvan

NA71 said:


> View attachment 815886


You could be right let see.



NA71 said:


> Again .....Chinese sources discussing


That is also major point they would have fuel tanks with them


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## TopGun786

NA71 said:


> Again .....Chinese sources discussing


Can you post links like you did yesterday?


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## SABRE

satyamev said:


> no details of the deal out yet ?
> Pakistan airforce is very lucky that way. In India each and every bolts price would be discussed in 20 different committees for years and after procurement the CAG would take out the obligatory criticism of the purchase.


That's the proper way to do it. However, India's problem is a bureaucratic creep. Defence acquisitions in India are processed through a [unnecessarily] large and multilayered structure. There is too much room for bureaucracies involved in the defence acquisitions to exercise undue politics and pursue parochial interests, particularly to extract kickbacks, at different levels of the structure, which then slows down the acquisition process. The process drags until almost everyone is satisfied. This may be one of the reasons that dragged the MMRCA competition for slightly less than two decades, caused controversy on Rafale's acquisition as well as with Bofors, BAE Haws, etc.

This is not to say Pakistan does not suffer from this but it has fewer layers because of the obvious structure of the state and with the military being the dominant arbiter in defence decision-making such defence acquisitions go through quickly.

From what it appears, Modi tried to compensate for the slow creep by creating new structures but instead ended up complicating it. The seat of CDS turned out to be controversial. It did not help matters. Seeing that the seat is still empty after the death of Rawat gives an impression there is a lack of acceptance in the tri-services and the new structure is inherently weak. Moreover, the entire restructuring ended up being more political than operational.

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## Deino

Aslan said:


> View attachment 815858





NA71 said:


> View attachment 815886




Indeed, allegedly the first two Pakistani Dragons 🐉 have landed however since they required additional fuel tanks for their journey this image is most likely still showing them at CAC Chengdu.

(Image via @Fighterman_FFRC)

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> I doubt that... Transit flight without drop tanks.???





Deino said:


> Indeed, allegedly the first two Pakistani Dragons 🐉 have landed however since they required additional fuel tanks for their journey this image is most likely still showing them at CAC Chengdu.
> 
> (Image via @Fighterman_FFRC)


Did the C always have a IRST?
Either way, it is the culmination of a process started in 2004-6 when the first PAF team started looking at the J-10A.

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## NA71

Deino said:


> Indeed, allegedly the first two Pakistani Dragons 🐉 have landed however since they required additional fuel tanks for their journey this image is most likely still showing them at CAC Chengdu.
> 
> (Image via @Fighterman_FFRC)



Landed indeed....couple of twitter handles are confirming but can not be taken as trusted source...regarding pictures....the previous photos taken from Chengdu without using any filter....but here filter has been applied to hide background and surroundings......

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## Tamiyah

RangeMaster said:


> From Twitter.... @thenomadlad
> 
> View attachment 815889


Seems little edited to me.

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## NA71

RangeMaster said:


> From Twitter.... @thenomadlad
> 
> View attachment 815889



Photo shopped


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## ARMalik

baqai said:


> I think only AESA alone is enough to make it step above the Block 52s, correct me if i am wrong please



Only Block 70/72 and UAE Block-60 have AESA. But J-10C has more features than these jets, example, trust vectoring ..... so in a way J-10C is higher in capabilities than Block70/72.

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## serenity

That above is an old photo of a Chinese J-10 in PLAAF colors but photoshopped with Pakistani flag. But the J-10CP would look very similar to that anyway.



ARMalik said:


> Only Block 70/72 and UAE Block-60 have AESA. But J-10C has more features than these jets, example, trust vectoring ..... so in a way J-10C is higher in capabilities than Block70/72.



J-10C does not have TVC.

J-10C in comparison to block 70/72 is a total unknown. All sane and fair estimates compare these two as comparables. No further information. As usual, most likely very similar features and so close it really is all about the rest of the support and of course the pilot himself.

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## NA71

ARMalik said:


> Only Block 70/72 and UAE Block-60 have AESA. But J-10C has more features than these jets, example, trust vectoring ..... so in a way J-10C is higher in capabilities than Block70/72.


trust vectoring = thrust vectoring


10C with WS-10B does not have thrust vectoring...i guess.
​

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## ARMalik

NA71 said:


> trust vectoring = thrust vectoring
> ​



Thanks Genius.

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## arjunk

RangeMaster said:


> From Twitter.... @thenomadlad
> 
> View attachment 815889


Fake. Original from 2020:

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## NA71

the next batch is coming like this :IA.

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## satyamev

SABRE said:


> That's the proper way to do it. However, India's problem is a bureaucratic creep. Defence acquisitions in India are processed through a [unnecessarily] large and multilayered structure. There is too much room for bureaucracies involved in the defence acquisitions to exercise undue politics and pursue parochial interests, particularly to extract kickbacks, at different levels of the structure, which then slows down the acquisition process. The process drags until almost everyone is satisfied. This may be one of the reasons that dragged the MMRCA competition for slightly less than two decades, caused controversy on Rafale's acquisition as well as with Bofors, BAE Haws, etc.
> 
> This is not to say Pakistan does not suffer from this but it has fewer layers because of the obvious structure of the state and with the military being the dominant arbiter in defence decision-making such defence acquisitions go through quickly.
> 
> From what it appears, Modi tried to compensate for the slow creep by creating new structures but instead ended up complicating it. The seat of CDS turned out to be controversial. It did not help matters. Seeing that the seat is still empty after the death of Rawat gives an impression there is a lack of acceptance in the tri-services and the new structure is inherently weak. Moreover, the entire restructuring ended up being more political than operational.


Controversies because of the individual not the concept of cds.
Modi has slowed down in his zeal for bureaucratic reform . For the 1st time in India, bureaucrats were fired for non performance. But its impossible to fight these guys , they know the inside out of the system and can paralyze any initiative. 
And it's not only corruption, a lot due to incompetence. 
I know of cases where defense personnel have to push proposals through a babu who was just shifted from postal services to the defense department. He is terrified of taking a decision as he doesn't have a iota of knowledge.

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## Zulfiqar

NA71 said:


> the next batch is coming like this :IA.
> 
> View attachment 815891



With that Mujahideen-e-Aflak song cued in.

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Back to the J-10C ... according to my information, the first two for the PAF will fly to Pakistan today. Right that moment a PLAAF Bombardier business jet has arrived at Chengdu factory airport and both J-10CPs have been seen with fuel tanks installed.



Is Imran Khan still in China? If not they could escort him back to Pakistan.

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## Deino

SQ8 said:


> Did the C always have a IRST?
> Either way, it is the culmination of a process started in 2004-6 when the first PAF team started looking at the J-10A.


Yes it does and did always.



RangeMaster said:


> From Twitter.... @thenomadlad
> 
> View attachment 815889


faked one


----------



## Areesh

siegecrossbow said:


> Is Imran Khan still in China? If not they could escort him back to Pakistan.



He is in Pakistan

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## siegecrossbow

Does anyone still remember this from last year? Next time you scoff at a cartoon for leaking defense information, remember this.

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## SABRE

satyamev said:


> Controversies because of the individual not the concept of cds.
> Modi has slowed down in his zeal for bureaucratic reform . For the 1st time in India, bureaucrats were fired for non performance. But its impossible to fight these guys , they know the inside out of the system and can paralyze any initiative.
> And it's not only corruption, a lot due to incompetence.
> I know of cases where defense personnel have to push proposals through a babu who was just shifted from postal services to the defense department. He is terrified of taking a decision as he doesn't have a iota of knowledge.



Essentially you are correct. The Organizational Structure Model applied to any country's structure will reveal conservatism, corruption, and incompetency working side-by-side. One cannot be rejected for the other. Bureaucratic politics, embedded with individual idiosyncrasies based on both personal and professional experiences and opinions, are also inherent flaws to state's structures. Discussion on this will drag on and divert the focus of the thread. Perhaps, it could be discussed in a different place?

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## redgriffin

kursed said:


> Just hope they don’t call it F-10. Too many Islamabadi memes.


F-10 has a special place in many hearts especially the back end of the Markaz

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## Windjammer

SQ8 said:


> Did the C always have a IRST?
> Either way, it is the culmination of a process started in 2004-6 when the first PAF team started looking at the J-10A.


Yes apart from the DSI, the IRST featured on the 10 Charlie prototype. 
When some close ups shot appeared, I first thought it was Fulcrum or Flanker.


----------



## TopGun786

siegecrossbow said:


> Does anyone still remember this from last year? Next time you scoff at a cartoon for leaking defense information, remember this.
> 
> View attachment 815893


Yes. And there was news from an even earlier date.

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## PanzerKiel



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## Areesh

serenity said:


> For sure, it has IRST and WS-10B.


So IRST confirmed too?


----------



## RealNapster

Mohsin123 said:


> You might have heard about a liar who cried ``sher aaya sher aaya`` or cried ``wolf!! wolf!!``. Its hard for me to believe a minister with countless failed truths under his belt for a stretegic prediction thats why skeptical till the end.



Ary yar aap na Mano teak Hy.


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## Trailer23

python-000 said:


> View attachment 815878
> 
> apni apni methai utha lo bhaion...


Ladoo ko koi haat na lagey...

Wo @Zarvan bhai kay leya *RESERVED* hai.

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 815900


Sir any major shock on 23rd March. Keep in mind J-10, SH15, HQ 9, Z-10 ME are now known. I mean totally new surprise ?

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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> Sir any major shock on 23rd March. Keep in mind J-10, SH15, HQ 9, Z-10 ME are now known. I mean totally new surprise ?


I thought you didnt give a damn.









10 soldiers martyred, 1militant killed and 3 apprehended when BLF attacked military check post in Balochistan's Kech district


Ok then....list of PA generals is here.... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serving_generals_of_the_Pakistan_Army You can find every one there...please choose your pick....atleast let us know which is that person whom you think enjoys your confidence, who can solve all our problems...



defence.pk

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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> I thought you didnt give a damn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 10 soldiers martyred, 1militant killed and 3 apprehended when BLF attacked military check post in Balochistan's Kech district
> 
> 
> Ok then....list of PA generals is here.... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serving_generals_of_the_Pakistan_Army You can find every one there...please choose your pick....atleast let us know which is that person whom you think enjoys your confidence, who can solve all our problems...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


I give a dam about both weapons and soldiers. And I hope they are used not just inducted. Iran and Afghanistan are going to do nothing. Secondly instead of using Artillery on TTP which we did yesterday I hope drones are used. I am angry on loosing 25 soldiers and our enemies sleeping happily. What I don't give a dam about is when we see just photo ops and no action. Take action Sir hit them in their hideouts in a big ruthless way plus increase the pain for their ABBA G our neighbor in the east.

Just look at faces of soldiers who fought as this public forum I won't say further but until leaderships avenges their brothers in a big drastic way I am seeing their morale getting badly affected and I hope I am wrong totally wrong. 






That being said can we expect a total surprise on 23rd March and a big surprise or not ?

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## Mohsin123

RealNapster said:


> Ary yar aap na Mano teak Hy.


ijazat ka sukriya bhai


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## PanzerKiel

Zarvan said:


> I am seeing their morale getting badly affected


I might have seen some really real fighting in couple of hotspots for maybe four years, might have killed more real enemies than you, lost some good friends and comrades on the way, however, what you have seen (morale getting effected, as quoted above), this thing i havent seen myself in the last two decades.

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## Taimoor Khan

So who is going to lead the fly past on 23rd? Have we ordered the dual seaters? If not, then I guess it will be F sola again.


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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> I might have seen some really real fighting in couple of hotspots for maybe four years, might have killed more real enemies than you, lost some good friends and comrades on the way, however, what you have seen (morale getting effected, as quoted above), this thing i havent seen myself in the last two decades.


Sir I hope you are right and I am wrong. My only wish is seeing less and less of our soldiers in coffins and more our enemies specially the neighbor in the east. They really need to pay the price. Until they face similar attacks for every attack here they won't stop training, financing, and supporting these scumbags.

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## Trailer23

Taimoor Khan said:


> So who *is going to lead the fly past on 23rd? Have we ordered the dual seaters? If not, then I guess it will be F sola again.*


Could be* JF-17B* too.


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## Iceman2

Aesterix said:


> Meanwhile Tejas tied to a rock....with a yellow rope. Only in India 🤣🤣
> 
> View attachment 815857


Sara mood kharab kardia iski shakal dikha k

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## Salza

Zarvan said:


> Keep in mind J-10, SH15, HQ 9, Z-10 ME are now known



Hold down your horses regarding Z10ME as of now though most likely, we will end up getting them after T129 saga


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## Taimoor Khan

Trailer23 said:


> Could be* JF-17B* too.




It was there last year as well. But F sola was used to lead. Would be nice to see something else lead, its been decades now.


----------



## Beast

Another one...

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## Salza

Beast said:


> Another one...
> View attachment 815903


already posted  infact its the first ever one

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## Enigma SIG

Sheikh Rasheed wins! I had my doubts but well.


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## Beast

Enigma SIG said:


> Sheikh Rasheed wins! I had my doubts but well.


Doubts? What doubts? You mean it will turn out into an april fool job?

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## Enigma SIG

Beast said:


> Doubts? What doubts? You mean it will turn out into an april fool job?


It's about the person in question who is of dubious history.

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## Iceman2

Zarvan said:


> Sir any major shock on 23rd March. Keep in mind J-10, SH15, HQ 9, Z-10 ME are now known. I mean totally new surprise ?


92 news reported 60 j-10s in total on 3pm bulletin

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## SQ8

PanzerKiel said:


> I might have seen some really real fighting in couple of hotspots for maybe four years, might have killed more real enemies than you, lost some good friends and comrades on the way, however, what you have seen (morale getting effected, as quoted above), this thing i havent seen myself in the last two decades.


Morale levels are generally misinterpreted here. Frustration is misinterpreted as low morale.
Anger is misinterpreted as low morale.
Losses are automatically interpreted as low morale.
For the most part losses of 5 in a particular unit do not affect(relatively) another located 1000 away. Anger maybe but even frustration isn’t apparent until you are seeing a situation similar to Bajaur or otherwise with multiple fronts and losses on all of them. 
If anything I have noticed among folks I know that losses generally infuriate or frustrate at best. Nobody loses hope or decided to pack up because of “Morale”.

If PA Morale was such a frail thing then Pakistan was truly done for.

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## SIPRA

Enigma SIG said:


> Sheikh Rasheed wins! I had my doubts but well.



"Sheeda Tully chha gaya
Modi noon *oathay* la gaya"

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## The Eagle

satyamev said:


> no details of the deal out yet ?
> Pakistan airforce is very lucky that way. In India each and every bolts price would be discussed in 20 different committees for years and after procurement the CAG would take out the obligatory criticism of the purchase.



And despite all those committees; Modi & his partners will loot a big chunk for commission.

Remember, India is not the sole example here to discuss on totally different topic. Remember that.

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## Zarvan

Salza said:


> Hold down your horses regarding Z10ME as of now though most likely, we will end up getting them after T129 saga


Z-10 ME already order placed. Deliveries to start soon. In fact @Tipu7 is suggesting something even bigger.

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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> That being said can we expect a total surprise on 23rd March and a big surprise or not ?



If things goes ahead as planned; Pakistan is going full ballistic on this. A deterrence come offensive is about to be displayed making its rival to spend more & more and making it longer for them to even prepare. Conclusively, this is the repeat of checkmate to cold start doctrine way before the other side could start some maneuvers.

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## Beast

Zarvan said:


> Z-10 ME already order placed. Deliveries to start soon. In fact @Tipu7 is suggesting something even bigger.
> 
> View attachment 815906


Y-20 transport plane or Y-20U.

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## Zarvan

Would love to say hello to our guests. I mean our eastern neighbors.



Beast said:


> Y-20 transport plane or Y-20U.


No he is not referring to this. He is referring to some fighter jet



The Eagle said:


> If things goes ahead as planned; Pakistan is going full ballistic on this. A deterrence come offensive is about to be displayed making its rival to spend more & more and making it longer for them to even prepare. Conclusively, this is the repeat of checkmate to cold start doctrine way before the other side could start some maneuvers.


INSHALLAH hopefully every thing goes planned. And check @Tipu7 latest tweet.

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## The Eagle

Beast said:


> Y-20 transport plane or Y-20U.



We might be looking in offensive domain. Wait for it. Its been cooking on slow burner.



Zarvan said:


> INSHALLAH hopefully every thing goes planned. And check @Tipu7 latest tweet.



I have seen it. I am not looking at one platform.

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## kursed

Areesh said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493886996636336129
> Yeh lo bhai. Qareeb sai dekh lo jahaz ko


What, I thought we were going to lose the IRST… as per rumors. Not! :p

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## serenity

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 815907
> 
> 
> Would love to say hello to our guests. I mean our eastern neighbors.
> 
> 
> No he is not referring to this. He is referring to some fighter jet
> 
> 
> INSHALLAH hopefully every thing goes planned. And check @Tipu7 latest tweet.





The Eagle said:


> We might be looking in offensive domain. Wait for it. Its been cooking on slow burner.
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen it. I am not looking at one platform.



What are you guys talking about? PAF getting something else along with J-10CP?

Or just more "J-10 will come with Russian engines" kind of rumor.


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## Zarvan

serenity said:


> What are you guys talking about? PAF getting something else along with J-10CP?
> 
> Or just more "J-10 will come with Russian engines" kind of rumor.


Yes we getting something else then J-10 C also.

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## kursed

Please don’t start a flanker rumor after this. There are no twin engine jets coming. Period.

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## The Eagle

kursed said:


> Please don’t start a flanker rumor after this. There are no twin engine jets coming. Period.



Who said anything about Flanker? twin engine? may be or may be not. How sure you are?

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## kursed

P.S. The jets are in clean config, they’re not in Pak. They’ve not arrived yet, curb the enthusiasm of the ‘source’. :p

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## Zarvan

kursed said:


> Please don’t start a flanker rumor after this. There are no twin engine jets coming. Period.


First of all when it comes to twin jet I won't rule out that because even in 5th Generation most probably we would have to go for twin engine. But no Mr Tipu is not referring to twin engine as of now.

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## Trailer23

*Path to J-10C/E/P*​

I suppose it was inevitable that J-10 would at some point become part of PAF's inventory. There were countless signs we had witnessed on *[PDF]* that led to speculation that something was up.

Here i'm going to list some of those signs, just to take us down memory lane & possibly relive those conversations...

*1.* Sheikh Rasheed confirms/hints about buying J-10 Jets (in 2019)






*2.* During the _2019 DxB Air Show_, a *CATIC* Official accidently uses the term* J-10P* in a conversation with me. Details available in Post#138
PAC/JF-17 - DxB Air Show 2019

*3.* There was also the infamous *SHAHEEN IX Exercise* a couple of years back when people were assuming the unmarked J-10's were for PAF. Some actually believed that those J-10's never left Pakistan.
Pakistan-China Joint Air Force Exercise "Shaheen-IX 2020"

- People started seeing J-10's over KHI.
- Numerous sightings of different (shapes) of Afterburners.
- @Deino losing his cool.





*4.* There was also this image that popped up of a J-10 in Pakistan/China livery (_below_), but I couldn't find the Topic where the discussion took place.




*5.* And the *Final Blow* was courtesy of the man who started it all...*Sheikh Rashid*.

*#Legend*

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## Talon

kursed said:


> Please don’t start a flanker rumor after this. There are no twin engine jets coming. Period.


How about starting an Indus Viper rumor?

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## kursed

The Eagle said:


> Who said anything about Flanker? twin engine? may be or may be not. How sure you are?


100% sure. There are no twin engine jets coming. Sorry but this is just a rumor by someone who doesn’t understand PAF.



Hodor said:


> How about starting an Indus Viper rumor?


Lol. Viper boys will be happy. 



Zarvan said:


> First of all when it comes to twin jet I won't rule out that because even in 5th Generation most probably we would have to go for twin engine. But no Mr Tipu is not referring to twin engine as of now.


Jee Sir. It’s just that there’s no incoming 5th Gen… at least for a while.

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## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> How about starting an Indus Viper rumor?


God Bless your Heart.

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## graphican

Got this clip from a youtube video. J-10C has single touch-screen display like F-35.








Hodor said:


> How about starting an Indus Viper rumor?


I've been hearing viper whispers on other forums. It's hard to believe what's true and what's not.

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## PakFactor



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## kursed

In all honesty, at least enjoy the 10C news. You were fed they were coming with a inferior engine, arms and inferior weapons package and was without IRST.

None of that was true.

Within last two years we have seen:


Xxxxxx (as yet unrevealed PAF update), HQ-9P, updated SPJ for JF, JFB3, J10C, VT4, WL2, TB2, CH4B, M109A Arty, SH-15Arty, Mi-35Ms, Fatah-1, TPS-77MRR, Harbah, Type 54AP, updated Agosta 90Bs.

PN has gone from simply fielding tactical datalinks to now fielding real-time data networks via ADVENT, ATR-72 Sea Eagle, and now Sea Sultan, YLC-18, Kornet E, Ly-80, 3 new ERIEYES, REK 3, CM401. Next Gen ESM for PN ships. Hangor, Babar class corvettes, Jinnah Class FFGs, and at least 5-6 other programs in the works.


And we keep asking what’s new… getting spoilt are we? As a 80s kid, growing up in the 90s, these are the biggest updates at least I’ve seen in my lifetime. Learn to enjoy too folks!

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## The Eagle

kursed said:


> 100% sure. There are no twin engine jets coming. Sorry but this is just a rumor by someone who doesn’t understand PAF.



So, My Dear Sir! You are close to PAF and understands well?

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## MH.Yang

kursed said:


> Please don’t start a flanker rumor after this. There are no twin engine jets coming. Period.


How about this flanker rumor:
Pakistan will buy 24 second-hand Su-35 from China. These Su-35 are purchased by China from Russia and delivered in 2018. China has refitted these Su-35. These Su-35 add AESA and stealth coating, and can use PL15.

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## Tehmasib

J10 CP Total number for Pakistan 3 Sqn as per 92 news... 5.14 to...... Link is as under.....

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## Trailer23

You can be certain that China/PLAAF are going to take a great deal of interest on the feedback they'll get from the PAF on the F-16's vs. the J-10's once the 23rd Parade is over & our boys can get down to pushing the J-10 to its limit.

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## Areesh

MH.Yang said:


> How about this flanker rumor:
> Pakistan will buy 24 second-hand Su-35 from China. These Su-35 are purchased by China from Russia and delivered in 2018. China has refitted these Su-35. These Su-35 add AESA and stealth coating, and can use PL15.

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## kursed

The Eagle said:


> So, My Dear Sir! You are close to PAF and understands well?


No. I just prefer seeing where they’re spending money vs not. A twin engine jet comes with infrastructure costs that PAF can ill afford at present. They’ve to perform upgrades elsewhere. It’s simple maths.

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## Bratva

@Trailer23 Is this the Image you had? IRST confirmed as well. Atleast for those who were asking

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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> How about starting an Indus Viper rumor?


Ill do it -
Everything including funds exists except the DSCA notices and approval. It really is up to Pakistan to pull that trigger and see where it goes. Even the config has been pretty much decided including 120C-8s and 9Xs.

18 new builds(options for X more) with upgrades for Block-52 fleet as part of package. 
Unit price is slightly more as offered to Bahrian due to additional systems and twice the normal spares.

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## kursed

MH.Yang said:


> How about this flanker rumor:
> Pakistan will buy 24 second-hand Su-35 from China. These Su-35 are purchased by China from Russia and delivered in 2018. China has refitted these Su-35. These Su-35 add AESA and stealth coating, and can use PL15.


Wrote this in 21’









New fighter for PAF Doctrine?


If the UK cannot afford to upgrade and maintain them - then how can PAF afford to do so. There is a reason why these airframes are being decomissioned with half their life still left !!! The only way these are can be relevant if he we get them along with other trench1 very cheap and able to...



defence.pk

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## Trailer23

SQ8 said:


> Ill do it -
> Everything including funds exists except the DSCA notices and approval. It really is up to Pakistan to pull that trigger and see where it goes. Even the config has been pretty much decided including 120C-8s and 9Xs.
> 
> 18 new builds(options for X more) with upgrades for Block-52 fleet as part of package.
> Unit price is slightly more as offered to Bahrian due to additional systems and twice the normal spares.


Heartbreak Hotel - thanks a lot.

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## SQ8

Trailer23 said:


> Heartbreak Hotel - thanks a lot.


The real kicker is - is it a rumor?

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## The Eagle

kursed said:


> No. I just prefer seeing where they’re spending money vs not. A twin engine jet comes with infrastructure costs that PAF can ill afford at present. They’ve to perform upgrades elsewhere. It’s simple maths.



My intention was to point out that we shouldn't judge people like they don't understand PAF. I agree that there are people with good analytical skills even living in Canada but then, there are people living within the proximity but can't say a word. I have no other interest but lest not judge the people.




kursed said:


> Sorry but this is just a rumor by *someone who doesn’t understand PAF.*


By the way, I missed that someone who said it before? Can you or @Zarvan point to the source.

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## Ali_Baba

graphican said:


> Got this clip from a youtube video. J-10C has single touch-screen display like F-35.
> 
> View attachment 815910
> 
> 
> 
> I've been hearing viper whispers on other forums. It's hard to believe what's true and what's not.



I was wondering if the avionics core between the JF17 Block III and J10C have become merged for the MMI and that the JF17 Block III is from an electronic perspective, now, a baby J10C with integrated links that allow for more sophisticated hybrid offensive mixed formations of JF17 Block III's and J10Cs. I would not be suprised if the above picture is also similar to how the JF17 Block III cockpit will look. ( All speculation - but to me the software is the most interesting part of this - the original JF17 Block III MMI was derived from the J10 series - so they are related to each other like siblings - also - i wonder if the PAF has gotten more of the hardpoints to become smarter - lets see ).

This new block of J10C would be the basis of future PLAAF procurements - ensuring compatability between the PLAAF and PAF fleets.

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## The Eagle

Bratva said:


> View attachment 815912
> 
> 
> 
> @Trailer23 Is this the Image you had? IRST confirmed as well. Atleast for those who were asking



Who was saying that these jets will be down in options and reduced due to cost? I can't remember but yes, there was a strong argument.


----------



## Zarvan

kursed said:


> 100% sure. There are no twin engine jets coming. Sorry but this is just a rumor by someone who doesn’t understand PAF.
> 
> 
> Lol. Viper boys will be happy.
> 
> 
> Jee Sir. It’s just that there’s no incoming 5th Gen… at least for a while.


I didn't say 5th Generation is coming Sir. I said eventually at one point we would have to go for twin engine. If that means after 20 years when we start going for fifth Generation. But it can happen even before that. But Tipu is referring to something else.


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## The Eagle

Trailer23 said:


> Heartbreak Hotel



Wait a while. Don't let it break too early. A slow cooking dish may take time.

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## kursed

The Eagle said:


> My intention was to point out that we shouldn't judge people like they don't understand PAF. I agree that there are people with good analytical skills even living in Canada but then, there are people living within the proximity but can't say a word. I have no other interest but lest not judge the people.
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, I missed that someone who said it before? Can you or @Zarvan point to the source.


Yaar. Kher when I say that point about PAF, it’s not a fan boy comment. If you’ve 10 RS. And have recently acquired capacity to interdict enemy at distance by spending 5, you won’t spend the next 5 Rs in an overlapping capacity but in one that augments the new buy. That’s all. There are after all finite resources they’re playing with. 

The rest is all up for you folks to decide what’s coming or not.

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## Zarvan

kursed said:


> No. I just prefer seeing where they’re spending money vs not. A twin engine jet comes with infrastructure costs that PAF can ill afford at present. They’ve to perform upgrades elsewhere. It’s simple maths.


Sir the number of weapons we have on order and we are inducting and more we are making and others which are rumored you still want to ask about costs.


----------



## MH.Yang

kursed said:


> Wrote this in 21’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New fighter for PAF Doctrine?
> 
> 
> If the UK cannot afford to upgrade and maintain them - then how can PAF afford to do so. There is a reason why these airframes are being decomissioned with half their life still left !!! The only way these are can be relevant if he we get them along with other trench1 very cheap and able to...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk



I know it's a rumor, and I know Pakistan will not buy heavy fighters. 

I just saw this rumor in Baidu Post Bar in China. I just think these Su-35 in China are more suitable for Pakistan than those in Egypt, and China's sale of Su-35 does not violate the agreement with Russia.

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## Daniel808

The Eagle said:


> Who said anything about Flanker? twin engine? may be or may be not. How sure you are?



You mean this one?

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## kursed

Zarvan said:


> Sir the number of weapons we have on order and we are inducting and more we are making and others which are rumored you still want to ask about costs.


Sir, lines of credit, commercial loans - all add up to costs. The above systems are all being paid for and a timeline is being followed. Ofc, costs are a major consideration.

I’m not suggesting there’s not a need for a twin engine jet, just that PAF is following a timeline where they need updates elsewhere first, given their finite resources.

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## The Eagle

SQ8 said:


> The real kicker is - is it a rumor?

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## That Guy

Bossman said:


> Don’t count them out. If surplus F16s with MLU are offered PAF will pick them up very fast. Even with the new JF17s and J10s, there are another 100+ obsolete aircraft mostly Mirages that need replacement. F16s might still be the best option.


F-16s are still the best option, not because they're better than the j-10, but because PAF has actual combat experience with the F-16s.

Of course, like you said, this all depends on if Pakistan is offered more F-16s in the first place.

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## GOAT

The Eagle said:


> If things goes ahead as planned; Pakistan is going full ballistic on this. A deterrence come offensive is about to be displayed making its rival to spend more & more and making it longer for them to even prepare. Conclusively, this is the repeat of checkmate to cold start doctrine way before the other side could start some maneuvers.


Any hint? Now I have an itch.

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## Trailer23

The Eagle said:


> Wait a while. Don't let it break too early. A slow cooking dish may take time.


*A watched pot never boils*

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## Tehmasib

The journey of J10 starts from Gen Musharraf..... Bravo

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## baqai

kursed said:


> Please don’t start a flanker rumor after this. There are no twin engine jets coming. Period.



abhi tu party shru hui hai ... Flankers are not the only thing with twin engines na? i would never rule out twins especially when it comes to coastal and maritime role


----------



## SQ8

That Guy said:


> F-16s are still the best option, not because they're better than the j-10, but because PAF has actual combat experience with the F-16s.
> 
> Of course, like you said, this all depends on if Pakistan is offered more F-16s in the first place.


Combat experience is one aspect - that platform is known in and out including every aspect of experience. I already wrote this elsewhere that the J-10s that land today will take 5 years to be fully integrated into the combat doctrine and 10 to have complete expertise of the system. Flying and taking it up into the air to fight is one thing but understanding availability rates, avionics and maintenance knowledge along with “nuances” takes a while. 
Doesn’t mean they aren’t combat ready but it will only be the pilots from 15sq. A brand new block-72 landing in Pakistan can be taken up into the air by either 5sq, 9 or 11 sq pilots with relatively little training.

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## ghazi52

PM is telling to Russia and USA , that they should advice India to >>>>>>>>>


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## The Eagle

Trailer23 said:


> *A watched pot never boils*



Time to change method

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## lcloo

What is more exciting than J10C if there is another surprise would be either one of these.

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## Zarvan

kursed said:


> Sir, lines of credit, commercial loans - all add up to costs. The above systems are all being paid for and a timeline is being followed. Ofc, costs are a major consideration.
> 
> I’m not suggesting there’s not a need for a twin engine jet, just that PAF is following a timeline where they need updates elsewhere first, given their finite resources.


Sir just relax. Get ready INSHALLAH by mercy of ALLAH till 2030 you will hear one breaking news after another

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## Deino

graphican said:


> Got this clip from a youtube video. J-10C has single touch-screen display like F-35.
> 
> View attachment 815910
> 
> 
> 
> I've been hearing viper whispers on other forums. It's hard to believe what's true and what's not.




I don't think ... from what we know it has not!


----------



## Zarvan

lcloo said:


> What is more exciting than J10C if there is another surprise would be either one of these.
> 
> View attachment 815940
> 
> 
> View attachment 815941


These are not those surprise.


----------



## aliyusuf

The Eagle said:


> Who said anything about Flanker? twin engine? may be or may be not. How sure you are?





Zarvan said:


> First of all when it comes to twin jet I won't rule out that because even in 5th Generation most probably we would have to go for twin engine. But no Mr Tipu is not referring to twin engine as of now.



So can it be the Chinese Hypersonic Missile DF-17?

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## maverick1977

Congratulations Pakistan ! 

Are there any Indians posting comments on J10 thread? Whats their sentiment like ?


----------



## Trailer23

Bratva said:


> View attachment 815912
> 
> 
> 
> @Trailer23 Is this the Image you had? IRST confirmed as well. Atleast for those who were asking


Not exactly. Similar to the one on the top, but Serial Numbers were 22-103 & 22-105.

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## Kaleem.61

I saw it somewhere on Facebook!

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## White and Green with M/S

Kaleem.61 said:


> I saw it somewhere on Facebook!
> View attachment 815943


Already posted


----------



## Deino

MH.Yang said:


> How about this flanker rumor:
> Pakistan will buy 24 second-hand Su-35 from China. These Su-35 are purchased by China from Russia and delivered in 2018. China has refitted these Su-35. These Su-35 add AESA and stealth coating, and can use PL15.




How about another rumour ... the PLAAF is slowly retiring its Russian Su-30MKK and IMO also soon the Su-30MK2 in the naval role? 

So these - then sanctioned by Russia and updated with new Chinese engines and avionics - would be an ideal type for both the AF as an asset "above" the J-10C as @Tipu7 hinted and for the PN!

Oh well ... a year or two ago I would have laughed about this theory. I think I'm getting old.  

@The Eagle @kursed @Zarvan @SQ8 @Reichsmarschall

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## Trailer23

Anyone take notice that the J-10 on the bottom *doesn't* seem to have _A2A Refueling_ capability - atleast for now.


----------



## siegecrossbow

When is flying and fighting in the J-10CP coming? Before or after flying and fighting in JF-17 Block III?









Flying & Fighting in the JF-17 Thunder: Interview with Pakistan Air Force fighter pilot


The JF-17 Thunder is one of the rarest and least known fighter aircraft in the world. Operated solely by the Pakistan Air Force*, it is a capable fighter in the same class as the F-16. On condition…




hushkit.net


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## Deino

Trailer23 said:


> Not exactly. Similar to the one on the top, but Serial Numbers were 22-103 & 22-105.



Really?  I think so far we have only seen 22-102 & 22-106.


----------



## Zarvan

Deino said:


> How about another rumour ... the PLAAF is slowly retiring its Russian Su-30MKK and IMO also soon the Su-30MK2 in the naval role?
> 
> So these - then sanctioned by Russia and updated with new Chinese engines and avionics - would be an ideal type for both the AF as an asset "above" the J-10C as @Tipu7 hinted and for the PN!
> 
> Oh well ... a year or two ago I would have laughed about this theory. I think I'm getting old.
> 
> @The Eagle @kursed @Zarvan @SQ8 @Reichsmarschall


Sir you are not getting old we are making up for the last decade plus thinking changing and going on offense is why this is happening

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## Deino

Zarvan said:


> Sir you are not getting old we are making up for the last decade plus thinking changing and going on offense is why this is happening




But would this be a viable option?


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## Zarvan

60 is our order. 54 divided in 3 Squadrons and 6 in CCS

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## Beast

MH.Yang said:


> How about this flanker rumor:
> Pakistan will buy 24 second-hand Su-35 from China. These Su-35 are purchased by China from Russia and delivered in 2018. China has refitted these Su-35. These Su-35 add AESA and stealth coating, and can use PL15.


I already predicted such things will happened when Russia sold those Su-35 to PLAAF about 5 years ago.

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## The Eagle

aliyusuf said:


> So can it be the Chinese Hypersonic Missile DF-17?



Point was about Fighter Jet. DF-17 is already reported by Indian Media. We don't need to work a lot to make them confuse. They are self sufficient in this area.

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## Zarvan

Deino said:


> But would this be a viable option?


Sir SU 30 no chance. Tipu is referring to most probably something from West

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## SQ8

Deino said:


> How about another rumour ... the PLAAF is slowly retiring its Russian Su-30MKK and IMO also soon the Su-30MK2 in the naval role?
> 
> So these - then sanctioned by Russia and updated with new Chinese engines and avionics - would be an ideal type for both the AF as an asset "above" the J-10C as @Tipu7 hinted and for the PN!
> 
> Oh well ... a year or two ago I would have laughed about this theory. I think I'm getting old.
> 
> @The Eagle @kursed @Zarvan @SQ8 @Reichsmarschall


It really could be all plausible because the strategic calculus is changing rapidly. However, I will re-emphasize that so far China hasn’t held off on its latest hardware but it takes a lot more prodding from Pakistan to get it. 
However, any rumors of J-20s coming to Pakistan will be ridiculous and nothing less. First, it is the bees knees of China’s airborne component and second it is ridiculously expensive.



Deino said:


> Really?  I think so far we have only seen 22-102 & 22-106.


Which engine have folks been inferring from the pictures?

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## Zarvan

aliyusuf said:


> So can it be the Chinese Hypersonic Missile DF-17?


Fighter Jet


----------



## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> Sir SU 30 no chance. Tipu is referring to most probably something from West



میں تا یورو فائٹر ہی لیساں

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## ghazi52

J10C is better than Rafael. India starts crying

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## Maula Jatt

ghazi52 said:


> J10C is better than Rafael. India starts crying
> 
> View attachment 815958
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 815954


even though RR is an Indian trait just like head bobbling but they are right


----------



## Bilal.

The Eagle said:


> Who was saying that these jets will be down in options and reduced due to cost? I can't remember but yes, there was a strong argument.


Some Chinese members based on weibo post if I remember correctly.

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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> Oh well ... a year or two ago I would have laughed about this theory. I think I'm getting old.



بالنظر إلى العلاقات الدفاعية بين باكستان والصين ؛ لا يمكن التنبؤ بها.

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## maverick1977

ghazi52 said:


> J10C is better than Rafael. India starts crying
> 
> View attachment 815958
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 815954




I love their crying..

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## MH.Yang

Deino said:


> How about another rumour ... the PLAAF is slowly retiring its Russian Su-30MKK and IMO also soon the Su-30MK2 in the naval role?
> 
> So these - then sanctioned by Russia and updated with new Chinese engines and avionics - would be an ideal type for both the AF as an asset "above" the J-10C as @Tipu7 hinted and for the PN!
> 
> Oh well ... a year or two ago I would have laughed about this theory. I think I'm getting old.
> 
> @The Eagle @kursed @Zarvan @SQ8 @Reichsmarschall


This rumor is not good.
PAF may consider the second-hand Su-35 which delivered in 2018, but PAF had certainly not need the early flanker whose fuselage life is almost exhausted.

Speaking of early flanks. I should thank you for forgetting the 76 Su-27 in the tomb of China's Lushan aircraft.

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## Zarvan

The Eagle said:


> میں تا یورو فائٹر ہی لیساں


Sir west includes USA also


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## The Eagle

Zarvan said:


> Sir west includes USA also



Bhai... I was merely joking. But what does it include or exclude or what we are going after; is not my comment at all. Wait like we did for J-10C as of now. We had discussion when Pilots were leaving for China for training... years ago. Did anyone hear this from anyone of that group? NO..... However, good news are there and will come eventually In'Sha'ALLAH.

Currently, there are threats since India is gearing up for elections. There is a threat of misadventure or another false flag since we are not just celebrating Pakistan Day but also, we are inducting more machines, we are moving forward with everything to checkmate them and on top; 27th Feb is around the corner. India never sits without attempting to even the score. India is already been called for persecution of minorities. Naxals are heating. Kashmir is already heating up for them. Laddakh is a harsh history already for them. Afghanistan leverage is lost. Proxies are being hunted. We have even gone straight up with Iranians as well (hopefully stricter than before). PM visiting Russia.... top concern for Delhi since Military is gone to west camp for purchases. Haven't we heard about cancellation of IN Submarine deal with Russia? So there are lot of indicators and India's frustration to divert from issues so that they can have some room for election victory.

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## Khan Sahab

Deino said:


> But would this be a viable option?


Not really. But with a better economy and resources in hand, there might be a need for such a platform.


----------



## Riz

The Eagle said:


> Bhai... I was merely joking.


Zarvan bhai ko abhi sa he agly surprise ka shok charh gia ha

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## monitor

According to @RupprechtDeino, PAF First Two J10CP will fly to Pakistan today. PAF J10CPs spotted with External Fuel Tanks Today at Chengdu, China. 😀

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## MH.Yang

Beast said:


> I already predicted such things will happened when Russia sold those Su-35 to PLAAF about 5 years ago.


China's purchase of Su-35 has nothing to do with Pakistan. China bought Su-35 to hedge J20 and J11D. 
Of course, we will now question the necessity of this transaction. But at that time, PLAAF could not determine whether J20 would succeed.
Now these 24 Su-35 have become an alien in PLAAF, so Chinese netizens don't like them.

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## Vortex

Mubarak to all my brothers and sisters 😃


I’ll go to buy ghulam Jamon and eat them all alone 😁

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Congratulations all.


@Bilal Khan (Quwa), Is this it then for the JF-17 Block-3?

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## Clutch

Anyone know what is the flight time before overhaul for ws-10 on the j-10c PAF has acquired??


----------



## Windjammer



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## Beast

MH.Yang said:


> China's purchase of Su-35 has nothing to do with Pakistan. China bought Su-35 to hedge J20 and J11D.
> Of course, we will now question the necessity of this transaction. But at that time, PLAAF could not determine whether J20 would succeed.
> Now these 24 Su-35 have become an alien in PLAAF, so Chinese netizens don't like them.


I would say killed 2 birds with a stone.


----------



## MH.Yang

Beast said:


> I would say killed 2 birds with a stone.



Of course, looking at hundreds of J11B&J16, Chinese netizens certainly hope that these Su-35 will disappear and reduce some maintenance pressure. 
It would certainly be better if they could be sold at cost.


----------



## PurpleButcher

MH.Yang said:


> Of course, looking at hundreds of J11B&J16, Chinese netizens certainly hope that these Su-35 will disappear and reduce some maintenance pressure.
> It would certainly be better if they could be sold at cost.


We are always there to ease pressure from our brother's shoulders. Whenever you feel like, let us know, we will lessen the pressure at a reasonable price

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## Trailer23

Zarvan said:


> 60 is our order. 54 divided in 3 Squadrons and 6 in CCS


CCS has now been replaced by ACE.

ACE Instructors.

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## kursed

Okay. So my bad. You guys are right. There’s that proverbial ‘one more thing’ in the works. 

God damn!

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## Shotgunner51

lcloo said:


> What is more exciting than J10C if there is another surprise would be either one of these.
> 
> View attachment 815941


For recon WZ-7 probably may join PAF, but WZ-8 unlikely, it needs to be air launched from another plane as carrier (like H-6N).

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## PanzerKiel

Trailer23 said:


> CCS has now been replaced by ACE.
> 
> ACE Instructors.


Not replaced, ACE is now the umbrella organization having different institutions, out of which CCS is one.

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## cssniper

Got you guys some graphics,though in Chinese.
It won't be 100% accurate.
Notice that hadpoint A has shortcomings due to wing design. 
Even if the engineers keep improving its capacity during the development from J-10A to J-10C,it take efforts to load missles on there.

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## Deino

SQ8 said:


> It really could be all plausible because the strategic calculus is changing rapidly. However, I will re-emphasize that so far China hasn’t held off on its latest hardware but it takes a lot more prodding from Pakistan to get it.
> However, any rumors of J-20s coming to Pakistan will be ridiculous and nothing less. First, it is the bees knees of China’s airborne component and second it is ridiculously expensive.
> 
> 
> Which engine have folks been inferring from the pictures?




Pardon? Clearly WS-10, but what has the engine to do with the serial numbers?


----------



## SIPRA

PanzerKiel said:


> Not replaced, ACE is now the umbrella organization having different institutions, out of which CCS is one.



OFF TOPIC

*Sir Jee:* To one Indian poster, who queried about your DP, I responded that it is the photograph of "Field Marshal Areesh Khan Mastan". I hope that you didn't mind my correct description.

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## Raider 21

Zarvan said:


> 60 is our order. 54 divided in 3 Squadrons and 6 in CCS


No OCU?

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## Bleek

Zarvan said:


> Fighter Jet


You mean the JF-17 B3 or something else?

F-16 B72? 😲


----------



## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> CCS has now been replaced by ACE.
> 
> ACE Instructors.


ACE, CCS and AWS are all different but compliment eachother.

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## Rafael

kursed said:


> Okay. So my bad. You guys are right. There’s that proverbial ‘one more thing’ in the works.
> 
> God damn!



Is that electronic warfare platform still part of the package,"?

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## Zarvan

Bleek said:


> You mean the JF-17 B3 or something else?
> 
> F-16 B72? 😲


Not BLOCK III something else. Yes could be the one you mentioned.



Raider 21 said:


> No OCU?


They would be part of 60

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## Ghessan

Aesterix said:


> Meanwhile Tejas tied to a rock....with a yellow rope. Only in India 🤣🤣
> 
> View attachment 815857


Getting cocky too, wonders looking at what ...


----------



## Riz

SIPRA said:


> OFF TOPIC
> 
> *Sir Jee:* To one Indian poster, who queried about your DP, I responded that it is the photograph of "Field Marshal Areesh Khan Mastan". I hope that you didn't mind my correct description.


Yeh kaheen apna @Areesh to nhi ?

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## Salza

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 815907
> 
> 
> Would love to say hello to our guests. I mean our eastern neighbors.
> 
> 
> No he is not referring to this. He is referring to some fighter jet
> 
> 
> INSHALLAH hopefully every thing goes planned. And check @Tipu7 latest tweet.


What else he is pointing at? Your guess?


----------



## Aesterix

So.....all going to No.15 squadron?


----------



## kursed

Rafael said:


> Is that electronic warfare platform still part of the package,"


That’s what I hope it’s.

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## SIPRA

Riz said:


> Yeh kaheen apna @Areesh to nhi ?



"*Areesh Khan Mastan*" is somewhat crude transliteration of "*Erich von Manstein*", who was a great German Field Marshal, during World War 2.

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## Reichmarshal

Beast said:


> I already predicted such things will happened when Russia sold those Su-35 to PLAAF about 5 years ago.


like Tariq Aziz use to say
"washing machine aap ki hoi"

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## Princeps Senatus

Aesterix said:


> So.....all going to No.15 squadron?


Why not raise a new squadron?


----------



## Salza

kursed said:


> Sir, lines of credit, commercial loans - all add up to costs. The above systems are all being paid for and a timeline is being followed. Ofc, costs are a major consideration.
> 
> I’m not suggesting there’s not a need for a twin engine jet, just that PAF is following a timeline where they need updates elsewhere first, given their finite resources.


So with updates you are suggesting V kits. Ahan ahan


----------



## Aesterix

Princeps Senatus said:


> Why not raise a new squadron?


There was one raised......comprising of Mirages ???


----------



## Reichmarshal

the only way PAF is buying any F 16 is if they come through CFS, of which the last time I checked the u.s owes Pakistan to the tune of around 10 billion $.
Now the spanner in the works......... as the u.s tells Pakistan that it can buy it all but has to come from our own pockets n not CFS.
Guess the Chief is going to the u.s to demand their pound of flesh which they owe PK

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## arjunk

Trailer23 said:


> Anyone take notice that the J-10 on the bottom *doesn't* seem to have _A2A Refueling_ capability - atleast for now.
> 
> View attachment 815945​


I think similar to JF-17 II, the probe is removable.


----------



## Ali_Baba

Reichmarshal said:


> the only way PAF is buying any F 16 is if they come through CFS, of which the last time I checked the u.s owes Pakistan to the tune of around 10 billion $.
> Now the spanner in the works......... as the u.s tells Pakistan that it can buy it all but has to come from our own pockets n not CFS.
> Guess the Chief is going to the u.s to demand their pound of flesh which they owe PK



Agree -why gve $10 billion to someone who has ratted out on paying the $10 billion they owe you... there is no trust given what the Americans have done with regards to repaying the CSF debt to Pakistan. It is a debt that is owed to Pakistan and not aid or anything else - a debt!!!

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## Bossman

Reichmarshal said:


> the only way PAF is buying any F 16 is if they come through CFS, of which the last time I checked the u.s owes Pakistan to the tune of around 10 billion $.
> Now the spanner in the works......... as the u.s tells Pakistan that it can buy it all but has to come from our own pockets n not CFS.
> Guess the Chief is going to the u.s to demand their pound of flesh which they owe PK



Some technical level discussions have taken place. The J10s have landed, life will get very interesting if we hear something on additional F16s in the next few weeks or Months. Don’t take this seriously but things will become even more interesting if we hear about SU35s during IKs visit to Russia. Almost impossible but if it does happens than there will a serious sanitation issues in certain quarters in a particular national capital.

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## kursed

Salza said:


> So with updates you are suggesting V kits. Ahan ahan


Lol. Who knows. But no I’m not.

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## musaji

Why do people think US would allow the sale of any F-16s (used, new blk 52 or 72) or any related upgrades (V) when they have refused to release Zulus, and worst have even refused to allow the export license for T129 engines to Pakistan for which it was going to pay out of its pocket. I do believe it was something evaluated against the indian Rafael acquisition and compared to J10C. PAF eventually decided to the Chinese route and new F16 are now history (for sometime now).

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## Enigma SIG

musaji said:


> Why do people think US would allow the sale of any F-16s (used, new blk 52 or 72) or any related upgrades (V) when they have refused to release Zulus, and worst have even refused to allow the export license for T129 engines to Pakistan for which it was going to pay out of its pocket. I do believe it was something evaluated against the indian Rafael acquisition and compared to J10C. PAF eventually decided to the Chinese route and new F16 are now history (for sometime now).


A love affair now put to rest. Ah those Falcon 4.0 days.

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## Trailer23

Bossman said:


> ...but things will become even more interesting if we hear about SU35s during IKs visit to Russia.


I wouldn't give it too much thought. It'll open another can of worms if we start dealing with the Russians when we are apparently taking the US into confidence over PMIK's visit to Russia.

Have people forgotten about *CAATSA* and what the repercussions are if you deal with the Russia directly? Turkey is an example.

Yes, India will get a pass for acquiring the S-400 (eventually) - but only because the US wants to...
a. Do business with India
b. Wants India in its corner against China

As for people brining up new Block 70/72's - I beg of you to give it a rest. I have given proof/evidence over & over that the launch customer (Bahrain) will receive delivery in 2024. And that's just the launch customer. There are a lot of Countries on the waiting list that if PAF placed the order today, don't expect anything before 2028.

However..., if we do discuss F-16's then it can only be in the conversation of: *Used*

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## TsAr

Zarvan said:


> Sir any major shock on 23rd March. Keep in mind J-10, SH15, HQ 9, Z-10 ME are now known. I mean totally new surprise ?


Maulana ais dafa 23 march par ap shadi ka ilan kar ka sab ko surprise kar dain.

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493863082480787457
(NFAK🔥)

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## Aesterix

musaji said:


> Why do people think US would allow the sale of any F-16s (used, new blk 52 or 72) or any related upgrades (V) when they have refused to release Zulus, and worst have even refused to allow the export license for T129 engines to Pakistan for which it was going to pay out of its pocket. I do believe it was something evaluated against the indian Rafael acquisition and compared to J10C. PAF eventually decided to the Chinese route and new F16 are now history (for sometime now).


I still remember when Pakistan paid for Purchasing F-16 , and USA offered wheat in return.
Happened in Benazir era
Pakistan paid half a billion and USA kept the money for over 10 years.

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## PakFactor

Aesterix said:


> I still remember when Pakistan paid for Purchasing F-16 , and USA offered wheat in return.
> Happened in Benazir era



Yup got soy beans in return --
Nothing going to say anything further.


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## NA71

An interesting and very informative interview with AM(r) Asim Suleman is being shown on ARY prowerplay right now...key points

1. PAF smart induction strategy
2. J-10C( he is avoiding much discussion)
3. Rafale and S400 impact on Pakistan
4. PAF short term and Long term induction of force multipliers.
5. JF17B3
and much more

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## aliyusuf

Trailer23 said:


> I wouldn't give it too much thought. It'll open another can of worms if we start dealing with the Russians when we are apparently taking the US into confidence over PMIK's visit to Russia.
> 
> Have people forgotten about *CAATSA* and what the repercussions are if you deal with the Russia directly? Turkey is an example.
> 
> Yes, India will get a pass for acquiring the S-400 (eventually) - but only because the US wants to...
> a. Do business with India
> b. Wants India in its corner against China
> 
> As for people brining up new Block 70/72's - I beg of you to give it a rest. I have given proof/evidence over & over that the launch customer (Bahrain) will receive delivery in 2024. And that's just the launch customer. There are a lot of Countries on the waiting list that if PAF placed the order today, don't expect anything before 2028.
> 
> *However..., if we do discuss F-16's then it can only be in the conversation of: Used*


Perhaps we can upgrade used birds and part of our existing fleet with V-Kits to V-Standards. 

But the question arises, why would the US, currently being in an opposing camp to Pakistan, is going to provide us with the V-Kits?

Well, only if the US still want's to maintain some influence on Pakistan. Otherwise, not likely.


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## Irfan Baloch

NA71 said:


> View attachment 815577


Halal Dragon lol


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## Khan vilatey

RealNapster said:


> Do you believe now ??


Disagree. Sheikh Rasheed was un characteristically reading from a peace of paper to get information out there. This was a carefully orchestrated information release to desuade the indians from making any miscalculation in the short term

k

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## PanzerKiel



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## SQ8

Deino said:


> Pardon? Clearly WS-10, but what has the engine to do with the serial numbers?


Wasn’t inferring serial numbers but that claim regarding AL-31 being the powerplant

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## Aadi_1591

Zarvan said:


> Z-10 ME already order placed. Deliveries to start soon. In fact @Tipu7 is suggesting something even bigger.
> 
> View attachment 815906


i hope there are f 16 block 72


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## Hydration

why is this thread so active

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## siegecrossbow

aliyusuf said:


> Perhaps we can upgrade used birds and part of our existing fleet with V-Kits to V-Standards.
> 
> But the question arises, why would the US, currently being in an opposing camp to Pakistan, is going to provide us with the V-Kits?
> 
> Well, only if the US still want's to maintain some influence on Pakistan. Otherwise, not likely.



If you are willing to wait another half decade you might get F-16Vs.

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## Indos

Hydration said:


> why is this thread so active



Depend on the situation bro, the last one I saw like this is when China and India fought in the border

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## Trailer23

siegecrossbow said:


> If you are willing to wait another half decade you might get F-16Vs.


In half a decade we won't need Vipers 'cause Pakistan/China tandem will make short work of our good neighbor. 

🤣🤣🤣

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## _NOBODY_

Hydration said:


> why is this thread so active

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## siegecrossbow

Trailer23 said:


> In half a decade we won't need Vipers 'cause Pakistan/China tandem will make short work of our good neighbor.
> 
> 🤣🤣🤣



But what about super power 2030?

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## Indos

_NOBODY_ said:


> View attachment 816076



Some time it was very active for something not that serious like when members showing their real photo in here in the special thread to reveal who we really are

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## ziaulislam

hussain0216 said:


> Project Azm or any 5th gen induction is many years away and we won't push or force ourselves until our enemies are almost ready to induct also
> 
> With no F16s coming a combination of JF17s and J10c are a perfect combo going forward
> 
> 
> 
> There was a question about whether J10c's would come at all, but now that they are here I expect a initial induction of 36 which will gradually grow alongside JF17s to anywhere between 50 and 100
> 
> 
> I don't think the Indians can keep pace with the Raphael's especially with other buyer's


Indians think of j10 as mig21
Otherwise by now they would have been worried about 800 j10s in PLAAF

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The biggest threat/problem with the J-10CE is that it gives the PAF an affordable way to rapidly scale up its long-range air-to-air capability.

The IAF will have to plan for a potential 90-strong fleet of J-10CEs. But it can't bank on attrition or serviceability rates to do its job. The J-10CE is China's mainstay fighter, so there's always going to be a steady supply line of spare parts, replacement jets, etc.

You can't guarantee that with any European fighter. E.g., the IAF's buying used M2Ks for spare parts.

In a weird way, Egypt, UAE, and Indonesia did the PAF a solid by taking up spots in the Rafale's production line-up. This might explain why India is now seriously focusing on new homegrown 4.5+/5-minus designs like TEDBF/ORCA. I honestly hope Bangladesh figures out the Typhoon or, heck, KF-21 situations so that the IAF's full-up forced to look in-house. No doubt that'd be a huge boon for the Indian industry, but the PAF will bank on India's institutional issues to slow TEDBF and ORCA, one way or another.

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## kursed

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493863082480787457
> (NFAK🔥)


Anyone who has been watching PAF since the 90s.. It doesn’t feel real, stuff of dreams.

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## Indos

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The biggest threat/problem with the J-10CE is that it gives the PAF an affordable way to rapidly scale up its long-range air-to-air capability.
> 
> The IAF will have to plan for a potential 90-strong fleet of J-10CEs. But it can't bank on attrition or serviceability rates to do its job. The J-10CE is China's mainstay fighter, so there's always going to be a steady supply line of spare parts, replacement jets, etc.
> 
> You can't guarantee that with any European fighter. E.g., the IAF's buying used M2Ks for spare parts.
> 
> In a weird way, Egypt, UAE, and Indonesia did the PAF a solid by taking up spots in the Rafale's production line-up. This might explain why India is now seriously focusing on new homegrown 4.5+/5-minus designs like TEDBF/ORCA. I honestly hope Bangladesh figures out the Typhoon or, heck, KF-21 situations so that the IAF's full-up forced to look in-house. No doubt that'd be a huge boon for the Indian industry, but the PAF will bank on India's institutional issues to slow TEDBF and ORCA, one way or another.



KF 21 development program is speed up, mass production is now targeted in 2024 instead of previous plan in 2027.

There India may want to get it though

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Indos said:


> KF 21 development program is speed up, mass production is now targeted in 2024 instead of previous plan in 2027.
> 
> There India may want to get it though


That's why I hope Bangladesh pulls through. 

Or the PN decides to surprise everyone yet again and order KF-21 /s.

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## Indos

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> ...plot twist, the PAF replaces F-16s with KF-21 built in Indonesia (it won't happen unless South Korea really tries to finesse both India and Pakistan through jugaadh/work-around methods...just kidding...)



If Pakistan order KF21, it may with condition SK will not sell it to India

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## Abid123

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493863082480787457
> (NFAK🔥)


I don't think the F-16 "fanboys" are dancing 😉

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## PakFactor

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That's why I hope Bangladesh pulls through.
> 
> Or the PN decides to surprise everyone yet again and order KF-21 /s.



If we go stealth it’ll be Chinese route, KF-21 is a no go as geopolitical US wouldn’t allow and SK will not upset the US.

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## Bleek

PakFactor said:


> If we go stealth it’ll be Chinese route, KF-21 is a no go as geopolitical US wouldn’t allow and SK will not upset the US.


What about Turkish


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## Khan vilatey

MH.Yang said:


> Why tie it to a rock?
> Can the Tejas become a robot to escape?


So it does not run and commit suicide 

k

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## PakFactor

Bleek said:


> What about Turkish



I don’t even wanna go there especially with the whole engine issue we had with helicopters. Other issue with Turkish products a lot of internal complements are Western imports to much red tape to go through.

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## Indos

PakFactor said:


> If we go stealth it’ll be Chinese route, KF-21 is a no go as geopolitical US wouldn’t allow and SK will not upset the US.



It is true US permission is needed for exporting KF21, but you can try first

Chinese until now is not ready to sell their Stealth to other country, while SK is already offering their jet as we speak ( even one European country is interested and also I believe Philippine and Malaysia)

If India is serious in building their AMCA and Tejas Mark 2, better dont buy anything that can make India respond back with another acquisition like more Rafale.

But I do hope better lasting peace between Pakistan and India can happen, so Pakistan can concentrate on the economy, while India will only face China

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## kursed

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The biggest threat/problem with the J-10CE is that it gives the PAF an affordable way to rapidly scale up its long-range air-to-air capability.
> 
> The IAF will have to plan for a potential 90-strong fleet of J-10CEs. But it can't bank on attrition or serviceability rates to do its job. The J-10CE is China's mainstay fighter, so there's always going to be a steady supply line of spare parts, replacement jets, etc.
> 
> You can't guarantee that with any European fighter. E.g., the IAF's buying used M2Ks for spare parts.
> 
> In a weird way, Egypt, UAE, and Indonesia did the PAF a solid by taking up spots in the Rafale's production line-up. This might explain why India is now seriously focusing on new homegrown 4.5+/5-minus designs like TEDBF/ORCA. I honestly hope Bangladesh figures out the Typhoon or, heck, KF-21 situations so that the IAF's full-up forced to look in-house. No doubt that'd be a huge boon for the Indian industry, but the PAF will bank on India's institutional issues to slow TEDBF and ORCA, one way or another.


Complete in agreement and this is why a Chinese engine makes even more sense.

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## White and Green with M/S

Bleek said:


> What about Turkish


Same as KF-21😃☺️😗


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## Indos

White and Green with M/S said:


> Same as KF-21😃☺️😗



KF 21 is indeed using US engine and at least 21 other technologies 

US permission is needed, but if US allows, then I think every thing will be just fine.


----------



## Shotgunner51

Indos said:


> KF 21 development program is speed up, mass production is now targeted in 2024 instead of previous plan in 2027.
> 
> There India may want to get it though


2024 for FRP sounds very aggressive. I thought EMD phase will last till 2026 with six prototypes (four built now) and LRIP commence 2027?


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## Indos

Shotgunner51 said:


> 2024 for FRP sounds very aggressive. I thought EMD phase will last till 2026 with six prototypes (four built now) and LRIP commence 2027?



Yup, quite aggressive, I think it is due to Indonesia Minister of Defense plan, despite I think we will just buy 6 Rafale ( it is already in contract, while 36 is still a commitment). Actually that 1.1 billion USD is just coming from previous Su35 order which is cancelled despite already in the form of contract ( but not yet being activated)

The prototypes is 8 though ( 6 flying, 2 static), much more than the protoype for TFX program which is also with very short time of testing.

I dont know, but with experience company like LM as technical consultant, I think it could be achievable, just wait for this whole year to finish whether that is really achievable based on the progress during 6 months of flight testing or not ( if no hurdles and no accident happen hopefully )


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

kursed said:


> Complete in agreement and this is why a Chinese engine makes even more sense.


IMO the J-10CE forms up the air-to-air, and the JF-17 Block-3 will drive the SOW and ALCM deployment. The PAF is taking a 'strength in numbers' approach to strike as it'll probably rely on more Block-3s to make up for any payload limitations. But tbh, the ability to carry two SOWs or ALCMs at a time is really effective given the focused breadth of targets in most cases.

IMO, the PAF won't get the 'widescale strike' capability until it gets a UCAV with a proper autonomous flying stack. Once that comes (and I think China's among the forerunners in getting there), then it'd be hard to gauge the balance in South Asia.

IMO, at that point, the power dynamics on both sides (India and Pak) would be off-the-charts. The only lag is our lack of industrialization and economic resilience. If we can get that economic resilience, then we can get a Britain-France-Germany-type dynamic with India and China, IMHO.

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## Inception-06

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493863082480787457
> (NFAK🔥)



Is this Video made by PDF Pakistani and Chinese guys ?


----------



## GumNaam

is this the WS10 engine?

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## hussain0216

Indos said:


> KF 21 is indeed using US engine and at least 21 other technologies
> 
> US permission is needed, but if US allows, then I think every thing will be just fine.




Yeah, I'm sure it'll be fine, we'll just wait for the U.S to allow it

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## ziaulislam

Abid123 said:


> I don't think the F-16 "fanboys" are dancing 😉




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493853477503741958

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## Khanate

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The biggest threat/problem with the J-10CE is that it gives the PAF an affordable way to rapidly scale up its long-range air-to-air capability.
> 
> The IAF will have to plan for a potential 90-strong fleet of J-10CEs. But it can't bank on attrition or serviceability rates to do its job. The J-10CE is China's mainstay fighter, so there's always going to be a steady supply line of spare parts, replacement jets, etc.
> 
> You can't guarantee that with any European fighter. E.g., the IAF's buying used M2Ks for spare parts.
> 
> In a weird way, Egypt, UAE, and Indonesia did the PAF a solid by taking up spots in the Rafale's production line-up. This might explain why India is now seriously focusing on new homegrown 4.5+/5-minus designs like TEDBF/ORCA. I honestly hope Bangladesh figures out the Typhoon or, heck, KF-21 situations so that the IAF's full-up forced to look in-house. No doubt that'd be a huge boon for the Indian industry, but the PAF will bank on India's institutional issues to slow TEDBF and ORCA, one way or another.




What of the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) once all the Mirages are retired?

Will PAF use MRF to support J10-CE fleet?

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## musaji

Hydration said:


> why is this thread so active


Please go back to some 20 pages and you will know why ...

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## ziaulislam

kursed said:


> Anyone who has been watching PAF since the 90s.. It doesn’t feel real, stuff of dreams.


Thinks changed very rapidly post 2005 actually. 
Though there was slow down in 2008-2013 time


----------



## TaimiKhan

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 816012



Not true. For now 01 sqdrn. 20-25 jets most probably.

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## Shotgunner51

Indos said:


> Yup, quite aggressive, I think it is due to Indonesia Minister of Defense plan, despite I think we will just buy 6 Rafale ( it is already in contract, while 36 is still a commitment). Actually that 1.1 billion USD is just coming from previous Su35 order which is cancelled despite already in the form of contract ( but not yet being activated)
> 
> The prototypes is 8 though ( 6 flying, 2 static), much more than the protoype for TFX program which is also with very short time of testing.
> 
> I dont know, but with experience company like LM as technical consultant, I think it could be achievable, if I am not mistaken F 15 program also has short period of testing to get type certificate


That's a lot of prototypes and testing for such a time frame, godspeed!

I'm not sure about how fast SAC J-35 (FC-31) is proceeding, but I'm sure it's a carrier-based jet only at least till this moment, no PLAAF involvement at all. Hence it remains a future option for PAF/PAC to become a co-developer for a land-based variant of the jet, say after J-35 gets FOC on PLAN's carriers. In fact that could be like how SK and Indonesia co-develop the KFX/IFX, or we all know CAC-PAC on JF-17 which is a pleasant success.


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## Aesterix

Many claiming the 2 jets have landed in Pakistan?


----------



## aziqbal

whats the latest ?

too many pages ? 

how many units and which air base have they landed at ?


----------



## Indos

Shotgunner51 said:


> That's a lot of prototypes, godspeed!
> 
> I'm not sure about how fast SAC J-35 (FC-31) is proceeding, but I'm sure it's a carrier-based jet only at least till this moment, no PLAAF involvement at all. Hence it remains a future option for PAF/PAC to become a co-developer for a land-based variant of the jet, say after J-35 gets FOC on PLAN's carriers. In fact that could be like how SK and Indonesia co-develop the KFX/IFX, or we all know CAC-PAC on JF-17.



What I mean current finished prototypes are 4 ( 1,2,3,and 4), but the total prototypes to be build would be 8 ( 6 flying ). 

Yup, if China allows Pakistan to do that, then it will be perfect


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## Bilal.

hussain0216 said:


> Yeah, I'm sure it'll be fine, we'll just wait for the U.S to allow it
> View attachment 816135


He is politely trying to tell us in the last couple of post. No thank you we want to sell it to india.


----------



## baqai

Enigma SIG said:


> A love affair now put to rest. Ah those Falcon 4.0 days.



i still have my copies of Falcon 3.0 and Falcon 4.0 somewhere in the house, got them from US at that time sheesh, those were the days

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## Trailer23

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 816067
> View attachment 816068

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## The Eagle

siegecrossbow said:


> If you are willing to wait another half decade you might get F-16Vs.



Apparently, the plan was to keep awaiting and had to go like this. But, there are changes now. Opportunities knocked on the door. 

I am not claiming that the message could such straight but it should have been like if you think you are the Only option then you must know that we have options. The reason why I see COAS visiting US before PM departure to Russia. This is more like a courtesy call for the old times sake, before making any OTHER decision. 

Pakistan US relations will be balanced unlike past. However, it will just foolish to call it like Pakistan being in totally opposite camp. Pakistan maintains the relations in east and west both a time. At-least east has no issues with it at all.

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## Hydration

musaji said:


> Please go back to some 20 pages and you will know why ...


i dont want to


----------



## The Eagle

Hydration said:


> i dont want to



And still questioning the Thread? What's with that kind of behaviour. How about a thread ban so can browse and not to derail.the discussion.

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## siegecrossbow

GumNaam said:


> View attachment 816133
> 
> is this the WS10 engine?



Yes.



The Eagle said:


> Apparently, the plan was to keep awaiting and had to go like this. But, there are changes now. Opportunities knocked on the door.
> 
> I am not claiming that the message could such straight but it should have been like if you think you are the Only option then you must know that we have options. The reason why I see COAS visiting US before PM departure to Russia. This is more like a courtesy call for the old times sake, before making any OTHER decision.
> 
> Pakistan US relations will be balanced unlike past. However, it will just foolish to call it like Pakistan being in totally opposite camp. Pakistan maintains the relations in east and west both a time. At-least east has no issues with it at all.



What I suggested has little to do with US Pakistanis relations. The real question is whether Pakistan will bold enough to accept the F-16Vs when the time comes.

That said, nothing is for certain. We will know when the time comes, if at all.

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## Trailer23

siegecrossbow said:


> The real question is whether Pakistan will bold enough to accept the F-16Vs when the time comes.


The question outta be, at what cost?*
*Not hinting towards finance.

Does the F-16 bring anything new to the table in terms of capability compared to the upgraded JF-17 Block III or the newly (soon-to-be) inducted J-10's?

Ans. NO!

Both the Block III & J-10's have AESA. They both have BVR (PL-15), which by numbers is superior to the AMRAAM (Aim-120C).

F-16's come with a lotta baggage. You gotta deal with Congress/Senate & strong Indian lobbying that goes with it. Even if you bypass all that b.s., you have to deal with their *End-User Agreement* that F-16's can only be used for Defense and not against anyone.

Fine. I think we took care of that loophole during our skirmish in 2019 by not using them as Strike.

Its a fair assessment that the US (now) know that Pakistan has called their bluff, opted for the J-10's and now they're feeling the pinch.

They know full well that Pakistan is not in any position to cough up hard cash for brand new Block 70/72's and would wanna off-load some of their older inventory by keeping us as one of their infamous non-NATO ally & make a lil' money off something that is collecting dust in Arizona and/or Nevada.

Like it or not - and this is to address some of our Members that aren't fans of the F-16...

...your opinion/feelings towards the F-16 means d!ck to the PAF leadership 'cause they love the F-16's because its the one jet which has always come through.

Your precious *Ops Swift Retort* piggybacked on the presence of the_ Viper_. 

Do I (personally) think PAF will get additional F-16? Honestly, I don't know. What I do know is if it did happen, it won't be one of those shinny new ones off the assembly line. It'll be one of those that have seen their share of flights and might require some serious oiling.

-T23

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## Bossman

Khanate said:


> What of the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) once all the Mirages are retired?
> 
> Will PAF use MRF to support J10-CE fleet?


Retooled to assemble CD70s

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## PakFactor

Trailer23 said:


> The question outta be, at what cost?*
> *Not hinting towards finance.
> 
> Does the F-16 bring anything new to the table in terms of capability compared to the upgraded JF-17 Block III or the newly (soon-to-be) inducted J-10's?
> 
> Ans. NO!
> 
> Both the Block III & J-10's have AESA. They both have BVR (PL-15), which by numbers is superior to the AMRAAM (Aim-120C).
> 
> F-16's come with a lotta baggage. You gotta deal with Congress/Senate & strong Indian lobbying that goes with it. Even if you bypass all that b.s., you have to deal with their *End-User Agreement* that F-16's can only be used for Defense and not against anyone.
> 
> Fine. I think we took care of that loophole during our skirmish in 2019 by not using them as Strike.
> 
> Its a fair assessment that the US (now) know that Pakistan has called their bluff, opted for the J-10's and now they're feeling the pinch.
> 
> They know full well that Pakistan is not in any position to cough up hard cash for brand new Block 70/72's and would wanna off-load some of their older inventory by keeping us as one of their infamous non-NATO ally & make a lil' money off something that is collecting dust in Arizona and/or Nevada.
> 
> Like it or not - and this is to address some of our Members that aren't fans of the F-16...
> 
> ...your opinion/feelings towards the F-16 means d!ck to the PAF leadership 'cause they love the F-16's because its the one jet which has always come through.
> 
> Your precious *Ops Swift Retort* piggybacked on the presence of the_ Viper_.
> 
> Do I (personally) think PAF will get additional F-16? Honestly, I don't know. What I do know is if it did happen, it won't be one of those shinny new ones off the assembly line. It'll be one of those that have seen their share of flights and might require some serious oiling.
> 
> -T23



Well said


----------



## Trailer23

Bossman said:


> Retooled to assemble CD70s


Older JF-17's (Block I's) currently have to fly to China to be overhauled. I don't see any reason why we can't setup shop here.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Trailer23 said:


>


He's right though! When India and RSS become a single body, it becomes extra easy for Pak for they produce extra negative energy to drsyroy India from within......

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## siegecrossbow

Trailer23 said:


> The question outta be, at what cost?*
> *Not hinting towards finance.
> 
> Does the F-16 bring anything new to the table in terms of capability compared to the upgraded JF-17 Block III or the newly (soon-to-be) inducted J-10's?
> 
> Ans. NO!
> 
> Both the Block III & J-10's have AESA. They both have BVR (PL-15), which by numbers is superior to the AMRAAM (Aim-120C).
> 
> F-16's come with a lotta baggage. You gotta deal with Congress/Senate & strong Indian lobbying that goes with it. Even if you bypass all that b.s., you have to deal with their *End-User Agreement* that F-16's can only be used for Defense and not against anyone.
> 
> Fine. I think we took care of that loophole during our skirmish in 2019 by not using them as Strike.
> 
> Its a fair assessment that the US (now) know that Pakistan has called their bluff, opted for the J-10's and now they're feeling the pinch.
> 
> They know full well that Pakistan is not in any position to cough up hard cash for brand new Block 70/72's and would wanna off-load some of their older inventory by keeping us as one of their infamous non-NATO ally & make a lil' money off something that is collecting dust in Arizona and/or Nevada.
> 
> Like it or not - and this is to address some of our Members that aren't fans of the F-16...
> 
> ...your opinion/feelings towards the F-16 means d!ck to the PAF leadership 'cause they love the F-16's because its the one jet which has always come through.
> 
> Your precious *Ops Swift Retort* piggybacked on the presence of the_ Viper_.
> 
> Do I (personally) think PAF will get additional F-16? Honestly, I don't know. What I do know is if it did happen, it won't be one of those shinny new ones off the assembly line. It'll be one of those that have seen their share of flights and might require some serious oiling.
> 
> -T23



New and refurbished F-16s at zero cost other than maybe some political points. Maybe some Mirage 2000s too. I hope you get what I mean.


----------



## GumNaam

The Eagle said:


> Apparently, the plan was to keep awaiting and had to go like this. But, there are changes now. Opportunities knocked on the door.
> 
> I am not claiming that the message could such straight but it should have been like *if you think you are the Only option then you must know that we have options*. The reason why I see COAS visiting US before PM departure to Russia. This is more like a courtesy call for the old times sake, before making any OTHER decision.
> 
> Pakistan US relations will be balanced unlike past. However, it will just foolish to call it like Pakistan being in totally opposite camp. Pakistan maintains the relations in east and west both a time. At-least east has no issues with it at all.


If I'm not mistaken, the NSA Dr. Moeed Yusuf has already said that Pakistan has other options and that no one is waiting on hands & foot for anything from the u.s. 


Going forward, Pakistan's approach is going to be very self-centered and (bluntly put) selfish when it comes to the united states. basically that what can they do for us FIRST. if they one one thing, they'll have to "do more" on 10 others things FIRST. Pakistani and american relations are going to be very tricky in the near future.



siegecrossbow said:


> Yes.


How do you know? and is this the WS-10 with TVC?


----------



## maverick1977

Indos said:


> It is true US permission is needed for exporting KF21, but you can try first
> 
> Chinese until now is not ready to sell their Stealth to other country, while SK is already offering their jet as we speak ( even one European country is interested and also I believe Philippine and Malaysia)
> 
> If India is serious in building their AMCA and Tejas Mark 2, better dont buy anything that can make India respond back with another acquisition like more Rafale.
> 
> But I do hope better lasting peace between Pakistan and India can happen, so Pakistan can concentrate on the economy, while India will only face China


Irrespective of peace, Pakistan will continue to be militarily strong and will modernize its weapons.


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## Trailer23

maverick1977 said:


> Irrespective of peace, Pakistan will continue to be militarily strong and will modernize its weapons.


AMEEN.


----------



## siegecrossbow

GumNaam said:


> If I'm not mistaken, the NSA Dr. Moeed Yusuf has already said that Pakistan has other options and that no one is waiting on hands & foot for anything from the u.s.
> 
> 
> Going forward, Pakistan's approach is going to be very self-centered and (bluntly put) selfish when it comes to the united states. basically that what can they do for us FIRST. if they one one thing, they'll have to "do more" on 10 others things FIRST. Pakistani and american relations are going to be very tricky in the near future.
> 
> 
> How do you know? and is this the WS-10 with TVC?









No operational variant of J-10 uses the TVC engine. TVC is used on demonstrator only.

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## mingle

Zarvan said:


> Z-10 ME already order placed. Deliveries to start soon. In fact @Tipu7 is suggesting something even bigger.
> 
> View attachment 815906


Vipers

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Reichmarshal said:


> the only way PAF is buying any F 16 is if they come through CFS, of which the last time I checked the u.s owes Pakistan to the tune of around 10 billion $.
> Now the spanner in the works......... as the u.s tells Pakistan that it can buy it all but has to come from our own pockets n not CFS.
> Guess the Chief is going to the u.s to demand their pound of flesh which they owe PK


I don't think so.

Pakistan paid with hard cash in the 1990s and they still didn't deliver the F-16s.

What makes you think the Americans are in any mood to sell F-16s to Pakistan now when the US President can't even bother to say, "Hello" to PM Imran Khan?

Can't imagine further F-16s for the PAF. There's no need for the US to sell these to Pakistan anymore.

Pakistan Air Force will simply have to adapt and put up with the J-10s.

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## The Terminator

satyamev said:


> We are all waiting eagerly for the j10 to reach Pakistan.
> The flyover should be with complete missile load . That will be a incredible sight.
> Was reading that the Pakistan version will be called f10p. What's the difference from the Chinese verion ? Engine? Avionics ? Armaments ?


Just a wild guess, the changes would be negligible like pilot's interface language on the cockpit, paint job/PAF markings and may be Pakistani armament integration. Perhaps a few tweaks in data link at most. Avionics and engine would be standard Chinese preferably non-TVC engine.


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## GumNaam

siegecrossbow said:


> View attachment 816159
> 
> 
> No operational variant of J-10 uses the TVC engine. TVC is used on demonstrator only.


by the way, what are those 2 or 3 whitish black lines on the sides of the right in front but slightly below the forward canards?


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## siegecrossbow

GumNaam said:


> by the way, what are those 2 or 3 whitish black lines on the sides of the right in front but slightly below the forward canards?



Are you referring to the formation lights?


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## GumNaam

siegecrossbow said:


> Are you referring to the formation lights?







this...


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## siegecrossbow

GumNaam said:


> View attachment 816164
> 
> this...



Yeah those are light strips.

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## The Terminator

satyamev said:


> Flying over mountains would be a good testament to the confidence the Chinese have in their premier aircraft.
> I vote for flying over , with full armaments.


Lol flying over mountains would boost Chinese confidence for what?? The Chinese/Pakistan made JF-17s regularly fly across the mountainous border without any issues. 

You should test your Teja to fly over mountains and test whether your samosa gets cold over mountains or not 😂😂😜

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## RAMPAGE

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The only lag is our lack of industrialization and economic resilience. If we can get that economic resilience, then we can get a Britain-France-Germany-type dynamic with India and China, IMHO.


One hell of a big _only_.


----------



## The Terminator

cssniper said:


> Sadly there is no images, just rumors.


There are actually low res images circulating on the internet of J-10C with JF-17 like markings and Pakistani flag on the tail


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## Bossman

Trailer23 said:


> Older JF-17's (Block I's) currently have to fly to China to be overhauled. I don't see any reason why we can't setup shop here.



A purpose built JF17 overhaul shop at Kamra is up and running. I think only one or two jets were sent to China to help develop an overhaul process, which was implemented in Kamra.

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## Iceman2

Zarvan said:


> First of all when it comes to twin jet I won't rule out that because even in 5th Generation most probably we would have to go for twin engine. But no Mr Tipu is not referring to twin engine as of now.


Matlab f sola 😳


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## Bossman

The Terminator said:


> Lol flying over mountains would boost Chinese confidence for what?? The Chinese/Pakistan made JF-17s regularly fly across the mountainous border without any issues.
> 
> You should test your Teja to fly over mountains and test whether your samosa gets cold over mountains or not 😂😂😜



PAF has been flying the F6s over the hump since the 60s.

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## Khan vilatey

musaji said:


> Why do people think US would allow the sale of any F-16s (used, new blk 52 or 72) or any related upgrades (V) when they have refused to release Zulus, and worst have even refused to allow the export license for T129 engines to Pakistan for which it was going to pay out of its pocket. I do believe it was something evaluated against the indian Rafael acquisition and compared to J10C. PAF eventually decided to the Chinese route and new F16 are now history (for sometime now).



don’t know Bajwa is going to the US



kursed said:


> Anyone who has been watching PAF since the 90s.. It doesn’t feel real, stuff of dreams.



I fully agree it feels soooooo different now , who would have believed this….. as a tribute please enjoy this oldy Goldie video






k

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## MultaniGuy

It will be March soon. I am waiting to see the J-10Cs in Pakistani army parade.

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## Iceman2

SQ8 said:


> Ill do it -
> Everything including funds exists except the DSCA notices and approval. It really is up to Pakistan to pull that trigger and see where it goes. Even the config has been pretty much decided including 120C-8s and 9Xs.
> 
> 18 new builds(options for X more) with upgrades for Block-52 fleet as part of package.
> Unit price is slightly more as offered to Bahrian due to additional systems and twice the normal spares.


Bhai pajeets hidden as visitors will shit their pants 😂😂😂

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## The Terminator

siegecrossbow said:


> Isn't Turkey already integrating AESA onto their block 52s? I don't see what J-10C adds to the game.


The future


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## Luosifen

siegecrossbow said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> What I suggested has little to do with US Pakistanis relations. The real question is whether Pakistan will bold enough to accept the F-16Vs when the time comes.
> 
> That said, nothing is for certain. We will know when the time comes, if at all.


For our Pakistani friends, I believe he is hinting at receiving your F-16Vs from China after a certain 'island' issue is settled.

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## PK784

China Begins Delivering 'Rafale Challenger' J-10C Fighter Jets To Pakistan? New Images Take Social Media By Storm


Images of what is claimed to be Pakistan’s first two J-10C multi-role fighter jets have surfaced on social media. Islamabad is reportedly acquiring the Chinese-made aircraft in response to India’s purchase of Rafale jets. Mission Emission: US Army’s New Objective Is To Train Its Soldiers To...




eurasiantimes.com





*Images of what is claimed to be Pakistan’s first two J-10C multi-role fighter jets have surfaced on social media. Islamabad is reportedly acquiring the Chinese-made aircraft in response to India’s purchase of Rafale jets. *



> The first squadron of 25 J-10Cs, the latest variant of China’s J-10, is likely to arrive soon, as previous reports said that these jets will perform a flypast at the Pakistan Day parade on March 23, 2022. The single-engine medium-weight fighters are being acquired to modernize the Pakistan Air force (PAF).



The order is crucial for the Chinese aerospace sector because it’s the first time the J-10 has been sold outside of China. The images were purportedly shot at the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation’s (CAC) factory in Sichuan province. A jet with the PAF insignia is seen taking a test flight.

The serial numbers 22-102 and 22-106 are also visible in the close-ups, implying that at least two aircraft are being tested.

*Equipped With WS-10B Engine*​China is putting a lot of effort to reduce its reliance on Russian engines. One of the J-10s seen in the picture appears to be equipped with a Chinese-made WS-10B Taihang engine. The J-10A and J-10B variants are powered by the Russian AL-31F engine.

A few images doing the rounds on Twitter in December showed several rows of J-10s in CAC’s assembly line, fuelling speculation that they were destined for Pakistan. China has not made any official announcements about the Pakistani order yet.

Pakistan’s Interior Minister, Sheikh Rashid, told reporters in Rawalpindi on December 29 that a squadron of 25 Chinese-made “JS-10” planes would perform a flypast at the Pakistan Day parade on March 23. According to the ministry, the Chinese jets are being acquired in “reaction to India’s Rafale jets”.

Previous reports suggested that Pakistan was set to purchase 36 J-10C semi-stealth 4.5 generation aircraft from China, but neither side has confirmed this so far. However, there is no clarity on why this number has been reduced to 25.

These aircraft will join Pakistan’s existing fleet of JF-17 fighter jets, which were jointly developed by Beijing and Islamabad as part of a large-scale program.

China and Pakistan are also producing the latest JF-17 Block III version, which features a new active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, a helmet-mounted display, beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles, as well as other improvements.





Chengdu 10 (via Wikipedia Commons)
PAF pilots were introduced to the J-10 as part of the Shaheen series of joint Sino-Pakistani exercises. The J-10C is far more advanced in terms of aerodynamics and avionics than the JF-17 and is a considerably bigger jet with a higher payload.



An infrared search and track and laser rangefinder dome in front of the cockpit and a glass cockpit with a wide-angle holographic head-up display are salient features of the J-10C.

The diverterless supersonic inlet used on the J-10B has been retained on the new variant. The new AESA radar is housed in the radome and will work with the same active-radar-guided PL-15 air-to-air missiles that the PAF has previously purchased for its latest JF-17 Block III fighters. These missiles have a dual-pulse motor that provides them a longer range

*J-10C To Counter India’s Rafale?*​It is said that Pakistan’s decision to buy J-10s is to counter its key regional adversary, India. The Indian Air Force will soon receive the last of the 36 Rafale fighters ordered from France. Furthermore, the country is looking to procure 114 multi-role fighters.

The 4.5-generation Rafale has a number of advantages over the J-10, including improved all-around performance, advanced avionics, electronic warfare systems, and a potentially wider range of weaponry, including ramjet-powered Meteor BVR missiles.




IAF Rafale. (Wikimedia Commons)
Nonetheless, by purchasing a similar ‘4.5 generation’ fighter, PAF is trying to remain as modern as possible. The blend of modern sensors and weapons such as AESA and PL-15 missiles could give PAF J-10C an advantage over other fighter jets in IAF’s inventory.

Considering China-Pakistan’s hostile relations with India, it’s possible that the PAF J-10s could be modified to carry airborne nuclear weapons in the near future. At present, PAF Mirage jets are tasked with such missions, although they are in urgent need of replacements.

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## ARMalik

Zarvan said:


> First of all when it comes to twin jet I won't rule out that because even in 5th Generation most probably we would have to go for twin engine. But no Mr Tipu is not referring to twin engine as of now.



Well PAF still operates A-5 Fantan aka bomb Truck which is a TWIN engine jet. These A-5s are getting replaced soon with something else.


----------



## Tank131

J-10 with PAF Colors

Not sure if the above has been posted but these images were at some Chinese airbase showing the J-10 with PAF insignia/flag


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## wali87

Great news. J10Cs and JF-17s B3 equipped with pl15s and AESA are enough to send shivers down IAF spines. Not to mention approx 76 F16s with Aim120s. Our airforce has come a long way not many nations in the world have such modern and wide variety of BVRS. India will have to think ten times now before doing any misadventure. Our air defence units too have Long range and multi tier SAMs making our air defence impregnable.

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## wali87

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Compare this to BD, the self declared GDP growth rate (self assesed) champion, acquiring 8 (eight) Mig-29s in 1999! Since then, it's a dead stop for her AF even when Burma can intrude into her airspace and stay there at will.....




99% literacy, self declared gdp yet they wear the shackles of slavery.
I ve always stated that Bangladesh doesn’t need modern military hardware. They don’t have anyone to use it against. They are practically a subservient vassal of India. So what little threat they have from Myanmar, they should cover that by getting into a defence pact with India. I mean they’ve already surrendered their freedom so might as well.

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## ARMalik

Hydration said:


> why is this thread so active



You have seen NOTHING yet !! I can guarantee another 100 to 150-pages coming before and after 23 March !

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## siegecrossbow

ARMalik said:


> You have seen NOTHING yet !! I can guarantee another 100 to 150-pages coming before and after 23 March !



The real question is whether it has a chance of beating the Surprise Day thread.

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## Thorough Pro

probably they mean batch or lot, i believe they are coming in sixes



Windjammer said:


> View attachment 816012


----------



## Zarvan

TsAr said:


> Maulana ais dafa 23 march par ap shadi ka ilan kar ka sab ko surprise kar dain.





ARMalik said:


> Well PAF still operates A-5 Fantan aka bomb Truck which is a TWIN engine jet. These A-5s are getting replaced soon with something else.


If you are trying to refer to JH-7 I seriously doubt it.


----------



## JohnWick

satyamev said:


> congrats.
> 
> the j10c which is claimed to be equivalent to the f16 52 is the backbone of the Chinese airforce ? The f16 52 variant came in the 90s ?
> The AESA in the j10 must be giving it a left up to the f16 ?





Zarvan said:


> If you are trying to refer to JH-7 I seriously doubt it.


May be F-35 hahhhahahha

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## ARMalik

Zarvan said:


> If you are trying to refer to JH-7 I seriously doubt it.



No necessarily JH-7, speaking of which there are Unconfirmed reports of these jets JH-7 being given FOC !


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## SABRE

Indos said:


> If Pakistan order KF21, it may with condition SK will not sell it to India



The reverse is more possible, given India's greater economic resources to purchase weapons in large quantities.


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## GumNaam

ARMalik said:


> Well PAF still operates A-5 Fantan aka bomb Truck which is a TWIN engine jet. These A-5s are getting replaced soon with something else.


PAF has retired A-5 Fantans a long time ago, retired during Musharraf days.

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## JohnWick

Thorough Pro said:


> Why are people excited about F-16 rumors?
> I say **** America, who wants to trust those fucking bastards again?
> do you people have no self-respect? want the same yoke of slavery around our necks again?
> If we had a strong financial position, I would rather burn those F-16 or better use them as aerial targets for Thunder Block 3


Very good
A machine which is saving your a** for 40 years , use it as a target practice

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## Thorough Pro

there are other machines that could have saved our *** without fingering it for 40 years, but you won't understand




JohnWick said:


> Very a good
> A machine which is saving your a** for 40 years , use it as a target practice

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## JohnWick

GumNaam said:


> PAF has retired A-5 Fantans a long time ago, retired during Musharraf days.


Nahh they don't retired them just keep them in storage for the war time as a backup for nuclear delivery !

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> Why are people excited about F-16 rumors?
> I say **** America, who wants to trust those fucking bastards again?
> do you people have no self-respect? want the same yoke of slavery around our necks again?
> If we had a strong financial position, I would rather burn those F-16 or better use them as aerial targets for Thunder Block 3


We won't be buying anything on Aid and these are not just rumors things are already in play. We would pay full price to what we want.


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## JohnWick

Thorough Pro said:


> there are other machines that could have saved our *** without fingering it for 40 years, but you won't understand


There were no other machines at that time you were in the US camp in the cold war !

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## ARMalik

GumNaam said:


> PAF has retired A-5 Fantans a long time ago, retired during Musharraf days.



Very true, the last one retired in 2011. Anyways, PAF needs truck bombers.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

RAMPAGE said:


> One hell of a big _only_.


In basketball terms, if we cross that bridge, "we'll get the mismatch every time." IMO, an industrial Pakistan could steer the economies of Central Asia, Afghanistan, the Gulf, and maybe even Northeast Africa in our direction. Just think of the massive geo-security development if that happens.

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## Thorough Pro

that was then, now is now. The world has changed and we only got raped in that camp, why go there again? we have been doing pretty well till now and will do even better with China in the near future. 18 jets won't do any good in a full-scale war except delaying the outcome by a few days. We should keep investing in our own homegrown jet. The amount we will pay for 18 F-16's would be enough to make three squadrons of Thunders and still leave enough to invest in R&D for the home grown next gen




JohnWick said:


> There were no other machines at that time you were in the US camp in the cold war !

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## JohnWick

Thorough Pro said:


> Yep, pay them the full price and then wait for them for 4 years and then smart *** congress cunt will present another " fucking amendment" and your fully paid jest will go to safe storage while you pay their storage charges and kiss their arses for two years to get boot up your behind, does it sound familiar to you? forgot the '90s already? what about the Zulu's? Anybody who signs an agreement with them for any more military hardware would be a total jackass idiot and enemy of the state.


We are actually buying starship form Elon Musk to use it as a space fighter !

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## MultaniGuy

Thorough Pro said:


> Why are people excited about F-16 rumors?
> I say **** America, who wants to trust those fucking bastards again?
> do you people have no self-respect? want the same yoke of slavery around our necks again?
> If we had a strong financial position, I would rather burn those F-16 or better use them as aerial targets for Thunder Block 3


Exactly my sentiments as well.
Better to work with China on basically everything.

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## TOPGUN

GumNaam said:


> PAF has retired A-5 Fantans a long time ago, retired during Musharraf days.



True, but some are in put in storage for that rainy day !!

PAF J-10CP

The Dragons are coming home soon inshallah !!

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## MultaniGuy

Okay, I would like to see the pictures of J-10Cs in Pakistan.

I will believe it when I see it.

Usually news agencies like DAWN, Al Jazeera, Xinhua, BBC, and Forbes would be reporting on a development like this.


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## Thorough Pro

good, we can use that to send some clueless ignorant people on a one way trip to space




JohnWick said:


> We are actually buying starship form Elon Musk to use it as a space fighter !

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## JohnWick

Thorough Pro said:


> that was then, now is now. The world has changed and we only got raped in that camp, why go there again? we have been doing pretty well till now and will do even better with China in the near future. 18 jets won't do any good in a full-scale war except delaying the outcome by a few days. We should keep investing in our own homegrown jet. The amount we will pay for 18 F-16's would be enough to make three squadrons of Thunders and still leave enough to invest in R&D for the home grown next gen


Pardon me but jft don't fill out requirement read the thread title we have bought J-10 for the exact same reason and a its a truth that a squadron or two of F-35 can lead us to the total air supremacy of India !



Thorough Pro said:


> good, we can use that to send some clueless ignorant people on a one way trip to space


You really think we are in a condition to buy anything ? Haha


----------



## GumNaam

Areesh said:


> So IRST confirmed too?


definitely...its in the pics...


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## Thorough Pro

This is piss poor PR. The news should not have come out as it did complemented with shitty low-quality images.
It should have been a proper coverage with official induction and high res images.


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## JohnWick

TOPGUN said:


> True, but some are in put in storage for that rainy day !!
> 
> PAF J-10CP
> 
> The Dragons are coming home soon inshallah !!
> 
> View attachment 816169


*We are Targaryens Now 
Hahhahahha *

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## JohnWick

Thorough Pro said:


> you are a clown! you claimed it, I neither claimed it nor understood it to be true but you missed my point by a mile. I am done with you


Sometimes you have to forget the past haha


----------



## GumNaam

The Eagle said:


> Apparently, the plan was to keep awaiting and had to go like this. But, there are changes now. Opportunities knocked on the door.
> 
> I am not claiming that the message could such straight but it should have been like if you think you are the Only option then you must know that we have options. The reason why I see COAS visiting US before PM departure to Russia. This is more like a courtesy call for the old times sake, before making any OTHER decision.
> 
> Pakistan US relations will be balanced unlike past. However, it will just foolish to call it like Pakistan being in totally opposite camp. Pakistan maintains the relations in east and west both a time. At-least east has no issues with it at all.


frankly I think it was a shit move by bajwa, it will look like he is going running to the americans while the government is trying to strengthen alliances with China and Russia. I mean, WHY? Kia zaroorat hay amreekans ko ghaans daal ney ki?! 😑

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## Luosifen

So is the squadron receiving the J-10CPs getting renamed to Halal Dragons?

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## RAMPAGE

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In basketball terms, if we cross that bridge, "we'll get the mismatch every time." IMO, an industrial Pakistan could steer the economies of Central Asia, Afghanistan, the Gulf, and maybe even Northeast Africa in our direction. Just think of the massive geo-security development if that happens.


A big _if_. Mr. Khan thinks industrialisation of the country entails begging China to put up some manufacturing plants here.

Actually, we need very little help for our industrialisation. The help we do need will not come from China. It will come from counties like Ukraine, South Africa, and perhaps small businesses in Germany, Japan, and Europe.

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> Yep, pay them the full price and then wait for them for 4 years and then some smart *** congress cunt will present another " fucking amendment" and your fully paid jest will go to safe storage while you pay their storage charges and kiss their arses for two years to get a non-lubed boot up your behind, does it sound familiar to you? forgot the '90s already? what about the 8 f-16's a couple of years ago? or how about Zulu's?
> 
> Anybody who signs an agreement with them for any more military hardware would be a total jackass idiot and enemy of the state.


Like it or not things are happening and if we would go for a deal that means it would happen only after we have received our zulus. Just wait and watch lot of things are in play.


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## SQ8

Iceman2 said:


> Bhai pajeets hidden as visitors will shit their pants 😂😂😂


No they won’t - they have been queuing up their allies in Washington to make sure the approval doesn’t come.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

RAMPAGE said:


> A big _if_. Mr. Khan thinks industrialisation of the country entails begging China to put up some manufacturing plants here.
> 
> Actually, we need very little help for our industrialisation. The help we do need will not come from China. It will come from counties like Ukraine, South Africa, and perhaps small businesses in Germany, Japan, and Europe.


Absolutely, bang on.


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## PK784

MultaniGuy said:


> Okay, I would like to see the pictures of J-10Cs in Pakistan.
> 
> I will believe it when I see it.
> 
> Usually news agencies like DAWN, Al Jazeera, Xinhua, BBC, and Forbes would be reporting on a development like this.


The news article has the link to the pictures on twitter:

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## V. Makarov



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## MultaniGuy

PK784 said:


> The news article has the link to the pictures on twitter:
> 
> View attachment 816176
> View attachment 816177


Oh my God,

Already!


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## PakAlp

Congratulations to all PDF members for the induction of J10C. Amazing jet indeed, with the J10C we will keep on upgrading it with cutting edge technology.

Looking back at 1997 till 2007. We were in a critical situation as we tested nuclear weapons and missile technology but our air force was mostly of 3rd generation planes which had no BVR, Aesa technology. The f7ps, A5s, F6s were legendary jets and were heavily upgraded but were long due replacing, the best plane we had was the f16s. During the stand off with India and potential war the best plane China could offer us were the upgraded F7Ps. Keep in mind that most of the world powerful nations were fielding 4th generation planes with bvr but Pakistan lacked this critical technology. Despite this our military and people stood firm against Indian aggression.

Moving to 2022, we have MLU f16s, Block 52s, Jf17 Aesa, bvr planes, J10C with powerful radar and missiles and so many other technologies which we never had access to, we are matched with the world most powerful nations so I believe we have become very powerful military force.

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## ozranger

Rafale's avionics is even inferior to that of F-17 Block 3









Radar comparison between JF-17 B3 and Rafale


This post https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/can-someone-explain-the-difference-between-the-french-rafael-vs-chinese-j-10c.732278/ drew my attention and raised my interest investigating radar performance difference between JF-17 Block III and Rafale. First thing we need to know Rafale has a smaller...



defence.pk

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## faithfulguy

Congrats to Pakistan and Indian pilots… I imaging this plane will invite many Indian pilots over to Pakistan for fantastic tea.

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## rAli

Folks, plz keep the F-16 drama out of this thread. We have discussed it to death already.

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## 帅的一匹

Thorough Pro said:


> The point is we are kissing their arrogant arse again. The fucking sleepy joe didn't have the courtesy to return our PM's call congratulating him on his taking the office but this is most people don't get it. There was once a tv program in which someone asked a beggar "don't you find it difficult to spread your hand in front of others?" and he replied no, it doesn't weigh a ton. That is what our mentality is.


Yankees have no right to look down on Pakistan, cause the best friend of Pakistan is the next super power. Imran Khan is a real man with guts and bones.

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## iLION12345_1

ARMalik said:


> Well PAF still operates A-5 Fantan aka bomb Truck which is a TWIN engine jet. These A-5s are getting replaced soon with something else.


A5s we’re retired in 2011…



JohnWick said:


> Nahh they don't retired them just keep them in storage for the war time as a backup for nuclear delivery !


No they don’t, they’ve been retired, scrapped or have been abandoned at boneyards. PAF doesn’t have the money or the spare parts to keep a jet retired in 2011 in reserve condition, if anything they probably didn’t last in reserve past a couple of years and are absolutely useless no matter what role they’re employed in. They’ll be hazards to fly and will drag down the force if they try to use them.

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## NA71



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## chinasun

One advantage of buying the J-10c is that Pakistan only needs to buy 25 aircraft for air force training, and if the situation is tense, China can produce more than 100 aircraft a year. Save money and develop the economy.
Pakistan does not need quantity to buy Chinese weapons.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Khanate said:


> What of the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) once all the Mirages are retired?
> 
> Will PAF use MRF to support J10-CE fleet?


I don't know about MRF specifically, but the PAF will probably set up an MRO capability for the J-10CE.

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## The Terminator

iLION12345_1 said:


> I mean if history is anything to go by F-10?
> Though I think it might just be referred to as J-10C in the PAF too.


They didn't change VT-4 tank's name though 🤔


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## Khan vilatey

ARMalik said:


> Well PAF still operates A-5 Fantan aka bomb Truck which is a TWIN engine jet. These A-5s are getting replaced soon with something else.


A-5 was retired 11 years ago by PAF in 2011 , these squadrons including black panthers transitioned to jf-17

K









Nanchang Q-5 - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org

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## The Terminator

iLION12345_1 said:


> That’s also possible given F-16 > JF-17 > FC-20 within the PAF makes a proper lineage.


So then J-20 would be called F-22 in Pakistan 🤔


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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't know about MRF specifically, but the PAF will probably set up an MRO capability for the J-10CE.


If PAF looking 60-80 jetts then MRO is must


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## The Terminator

Deino said:


> Pardon ... I don't understand your question or post?


He is trying to ask that is it really PAF's fighter jet for sure? Trying to confirm deal and timely delivery news from you. 

Inquiring about your authentication and confirmation about the PAF acquiring J-10 news and the images too. Are those real or fake!


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## Raja Porus

SQ8 said:


> Ill do it -
> Everything including funds exists except the DSCA notices and approval. It really is up to Pakistan to pull that trigger and see where it goes. Even the config has been pretty much decided including 120C-8s and 9Xs.
> 
> 18 new builds(options for X more) with upgrades for Block-52 fleet as part of package.
> Unit price is slightly more as offered to Bahrian due to additional systems and twice the normal spares.


All discussions down with the newly announced Indo-Pacific strategy of US. No mention of Pakistan.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

It was in 2014 that on this very forum and if I am not forgetting also on sino def forum as well that I wrote that Paf had made a deal for the J10's---( and there were a few others---a very few others who knew it and those who believed it ).

This forum showed some excitement---but the sinodef forum was full of ridicule towards me---specially Deino---.

Funny thing is that over everything that they ridiculed me---other than the JH7A's---pakistan has most of those items in their colors---and some getting closer to final production.

Defence procurement is like no other business in the world---and these tech clever looking for LINK, posters, think that the TRUTH is somehow attached to a computer link---.stupidity at a level never seen in the history of mankind---.

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## Riz

The Terminator said:


> So then J-20 would be called F-22 in Pakistan 🤔


Name would be remain same with just addition of (P) J-10CP , if F-16 and mirages names remained same what is with Chines jets ?

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## Enigma SIG

baqai said:


> i still have my copies of Falcon 3.0 and Falcon 4.0 somewhere in the house, got them from US at that time sheesh, those were the days


I loved the community with the mods that they built on top of this game, along with BMS and Allied Force. Bought joysticks with POV Hat switches just for this .


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## The Terminator

Great Janjua said:


> I mean if PAF likes and therefore invests in the J-10c it could turn out to be a success story. The starting key would be an integration of local weapons be it from the dumb bombs to Raad cruise missiles if PAF makes this platform as its own it is worth 2 Rafaels in the bush.
> 
> 
> Yes mentee my friend our very own.


Yes indeed. PAF could materialize their dream of making their own F-16 which was slightly derailed due to certain hurdles in JF-17 development program. J-10's potential if fully polished and utilized by PAF could easily replace the role of F-16s, Mirages and also excel in certain parameters in PAF, thanks to Chinese cooperation and the flexibility the Chinese platform provides to the PAF which no US platform could ever provide

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## Indos

@Zarvan has been proven as right over his claim on this acquisition

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> The point is we are kissing their arrogant arse again. The fucking sleepy joe didn't have the courtesy to return our PM's call congratulating him on his taking the office but this is most people don't get it. There was once a tv program in which someone asked a beggar "don't you find it difficult to spread your hand in front of others?" and he replied no, it doesn't weigh a ton. That is what our mentality is.


Point is we won't be in one camp. Our strategic ally is China but we would also have relations with Russia, Europe and USA.


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## Cool_Soldier

J10 C-Welcome to PAF .

You will enjoy your flight in the hands of well trained and daring Air Fighters.

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## NA71

Zarvan said:


> Point is we won't be in one camp. Our strategic ally is China but we would also have relations with Russia, Europe and USA.


We are simply stupid in international relations.... At one end we declare "Absolutely Not" but very next day we hope for V-Kits to be dropped at our doors by DHL.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It was in 2014 that on this very forum and if I am not forgetting also on sino def forum as well that I wrote that Paf had made a deal for the J10's.


Sir, you mentioned J10s that time...what we are receiving is JS-10 ...difference tu hey na.

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## Zarvan

NA71 said:


> We are simply stupid in international relations.... At one end we declare "Absolutely Not" but very next day we hope for V-Kits to be dropped at our doors by DHL.


We stood by Absolutely not. No bases were given Why are you mixing two things ? We want a good relationship on equal terms. We won't take aid and if we want weapons we would pay full price. Why it's so difficult to understand that these are two separate things ?

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## NA71

Zarvan said:


> We stood by Absolutely not. No bases were given Why are you mixing two things ? We want a good relationship on equal terms. We won't take aid and if we want weapons we would pay full price. Why it's so difficult to understand that these are two separate things ?


separate things? My God ...if these are separate ...just ask US for F-16s or their up gradations ...

We have done all efforts in pursuing f-16s ..and thn we opted the J-10c option. 

Bro let me know what is "equal terms" in US-Pak relationship...

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## Zarvan

NA71 said:


> separate things? My God ...if these are separate ...just ask US for F-16s or their up gradations ...
> 
> We have done all efforts in pursuing f-16s ..and thn we opted the J-10c option.
> 
> Bro let me know what is "equal terms" in US-Pak relationship...


What do you think is happening right now. They won't announce it on loud speaker until deal is finalized. Just like J-10 C wasn't announced. If they reach the deal it would be announced so relax. We are not going to give them bases or end our relationship with China to get F-16. If they want to sell us weapons fare enough if they don't we give a dam. We have several other options.

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## NA71

Zarvan said:


> What do you think is happening right now. They won't announce it on loud speaker until deal is finalized. Just like J-10 C wasn't announced. If they reach the deal it would be announced so relax. We are not going to give them bases or end our relationship with China to get F-16. If they want to sell us weapons fare enough if they don't we give a dam. We have several other options.


Sir, It is highly debatable and drag this thread to off topic discussion. So leave it to some other time. No F-16 even a single spare part...ask someone in service ..how difficult it has become for them to even maintain the fleet.

For fun and gossips...yes we are getting Vs in numbers.

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## Zarvan

NA71 said:


> Sir, It is highly debatable and drag this thread to off topic discussion. So leave it to some other time. No F-16 even a single spare part...ask someone in service ..how difficult it has become for them to even maintain the fleet.
> 
> For fun and gossips...yes we are getting Vs in numbers.


I know people in force and I know how good they are at misdirecting. Bro even until Sheikh Rasheed opened his mouth many in Forces were totally in denial about J-10 C. You think they would tell you now about F-16. Trust this guy @Tipu7 he doesn't speak ever. If he speaking right now he is doing it with permission and he knows what he is talking about. Also it's not even final that he is only referring to F-16. It could be something else also.


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## NA71

Zarvan said:


> I know people in force and I know how good they are at misdirecting. Bro even until Sheikh Rasheed opened his mouth many in Forces were totally in denial about J-10 C. You think they would tell you now about F-16. Trust this guy @Tipu7 he doesn't speak ever. If he speaking right now he is doing it with permission and he knows what he is talking about. Also it's not even final that he is only referring to F-16. It could be something else also.


yar tum net tipu ko marwa diya ...now all guests will start searching his posts...for intel hunting

this is what Tipu has to say for now:


----------



## V. Makarov



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## GumNaam

NA71 said:


> yar tum net tipu ko marwa diya ...now all guests will start searching his posts...for intel hunting
> 
> this is what Tipu has to say for now:
> 
> View attachment 816185


Maybe more nasty surprises to come.


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## Big_bud

Why people are thinking it must be something related to F16s? Can be a new Awac system? Or something along electro magnetic spectrum? Why would it be F16? Can't we get anything else from west? Why F16s are being dragged in?

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## Zarvan

NA71 said:


> yar tum net tipu ko marwa diya ...now all guests will start searching his posts...for intel hunting
> 
> this is what Tipu has to say for now:
> 
> View attachment 816185


Yes this is the tweet which I am referring to.

But he is referring to something and it's not Air Defence system. It's offensive beast and in all probability a fighter jet

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## Big_bud

Zarvan said:


> Yes this is the tweet which I am referring to.
> 
> But he is referring to something and it's not Air Defence system. It's offensive beast and in all probability a fighter jet



What if it turns out to be a beast of a air refueler! 😅 Or new C130s.


----------



## luciferdd

Big_bud said:


> Why people are thinking it must be something related to F16s? Can be a new Awac system? Or something along electro magnetic spectrum? Why would it be F16? Can't we get anything else from west? Why F16s are being dragged in?


I think those old ZDK-03s may will be upgraded with new KLC-7 AESE radar to cooperate with those J-10C.The radar is the same one that on KJ-600 carrier-borne AWACS or a simular thing.

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## Zarvan

Big_bud said:


> What if it turns out to be a beast of a air refueler! 😅 Or new C130s.


It isn't. I know this guy it's neither C-130. Even many senior guys and mods knows what he is referring to exactly but they can't say without permission but it's in category of offensive type.



Big_bud said:


> Why people are thinking it must be something related to F16s? Can be a new Awac system? Or something along electro magnetic spectrum? Why would it be F16? Can't we get anything else from west? Why F16s are being dragged in?


Because it's not. It's neither EW system, or transport, air refueller.



luciferdd said:


> I think those old ZDK-03s may will be upgraded with new KLC-7 AESE radar to cooperate with those J-10C.
> View attachment 816187


They would get upgraded but this is not what is being talked about.

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## Big_bud

Zarvan said:


> It isn't. I know this guy it's neither C-130. Even many senior guys and mods knows what he is referring to exactly but they can't say without permission but it's in category of offensive type.
> 
> 
> Because it's not. It's neither EW system, or transport, air refueller.
> 
> 
> They would get upgraded but this is not what is being talked about.



"Men ty euro fighter ee ly san" might be an encrypted message all along by none other than our @The Eagle ? 😂😂😂

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

And in mid 2000's these same lovers of the F16's stated that PAF has stored up on 5 years supply of parts in reserve and will be ahead of the game.

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## Luosifen

🤔 what else is the PAF able to afford right now after all these acquisitions?


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## aliyusuf

Zarvan said:


> It isn't. I know this guy it's neither C-130. Even many senior guys and mods knows what he is referring to exactly but they can't say without permission but it's in category of offensive type.
> 
> 
> Because it's not. It's neither EW system, or transport, air refueller.
> 
> 
> They would get upgraded but this is not what is being talked about.


Is it the J-16D?


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## Luosifen

aliyusuf said:


> Is it the J-16D?


Unlikely unless you can get permission of Russia since the Flanker models are their IP and China only received license for domestic production and use.


----------



## Big_bud

aliyusuf said:


> Is it the J-16D?



They are hinting its from the west... Can't be J16D

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## Goritoes

SQ8 said:


> Ill do it -
> Everything including funds exists except the DSCA notices and approval. It really is up to Pakistan to pull that trigger and see where it goes. Even the config has been pretty much decided including 120C-8s and 9Xs.
> 
> 18 new builds(options for X more) with upgrades for Block-52 fleet as part of package.
> Unit price is slightly more as offered to Bahrian due to additional systems and twice the normal spares.


If that turn out to be true, I will personally drive from SC to where you live to give you Asr-e-Shereen Mithai box, with a large box of Rees and a live size Teddy bear with Heart.

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## NA71

Luosifen said:


> Unlikely unless you can get permission of Russia since the Flanker models are their IP and China only received license for domestic production and use.


What if we have got that permission?

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## Vapnope

EW EW EW EW...

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## Goritoes

Deino said:


> How about another rumour ... the PLAAF is slowly retiring its Russian Su-30MKK and IMO also soon the Su-30MK2 in the naval role?
> 
> So these - then sanctioned by Russia and updated with new Chinese engines and avionics - would be an ideal type for both the AF as an asset "above" the J-10C as @Tipu7 hinted and for the PN!
> 
> Oh well ... a year or two ago I would have laughed about this theory. I think I'm getting old.
> 
> @The Eagle @kursed @Zarvan @SQ8 @Reichsmarschall


Ok I've seen everything now on PDF, @Deino starting a rumor on PDF about Pakistan Air force, I have found meaning of life itself, found the secrets of Creations.

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## Luosifen

NA71 said:


> What if we have got that permission?


Would still be difficult, you'd need to convince the central gov't to clear it for export since the PLA needs J-16D for Pacific operations and don't want any of their EW stuff getting into the wrong hands.


----------



## aliyusuf

Luosifen said:


> Unlikely unless you can get permission of Russia since the Flanker models are their IP and China only received license for domestic production and use.


That license was only for the controlled production of the J-11A/Su-27SK Flankers. But, China has been violating that license ever since with the continued production of the J-11B, J-15, and J-16. Clandestinely based on the Su-27SK, Su-33, Su-30MKK respectively.

But the Russians have uttered only muted protests and have preferred to turn a blind eye to these violations, due to the substantial economic support that it receives in trade with China.

Also, PMIK is about to embark on a trip to Russia.
Let's see what comes out of that trip.

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## Black Bird

White and Green with M/S said:


> Don't trust some Twitter





Flight of falcon said:


> No it’s Chinese fighter Uber service 😡


Chinese food Panda


----------



## mingle

Big_bud said:


> "Men ty euro fighter ee ly san" might be an encrypted message all along by none other than our @The Eagle ? 😂😂😂


No surprise if that happens 5 billion loan like Eygpt got for Rafale 28-36 would be cherry on the top


----------



## TheDarkKnight

SQ8 said:


> Ill do it -
> Everything including funds exists except the DSCA notices and approval. It really is up to Pakistan to pull that trigger and see where it goes. Even the config has been pretty much decided including 120C-8s and 9Xs.
> 
> 18 new builds(options for X more) with upgrades for Block-52 fleet as part of package.
> Unit price is slightly more as offered to Bahrian due to additional systems and twice the normal spares.


Any chance of it being paid via blocked CSF? Going how even Afghan reserves were split, it looks impossible.


----------



## Goritoes

Not long ago when J-10 rumors once again hit PDF few members who are not so active here mentioned about Medium/Long Range Radars from US, at that time there was talks of buying jets from East and West, and we just got ones from the EAST, so now lets keep the figures crossed for the ones from the west, with J-10's PAF now have a fighter with AESA and longer range AAM so Americans will be bit more reluctant towards releasing the 18 old block 52's along with option to upgrade the fleet with V standards, yes its a high guess game but the world is changing and so does Pakistan armed forces and their weapon acquisitions. 

PAF currently holds around 80 F-16's adding those 18 will give them the number they always were looking for, +/- 100 units all upgraded to either 52s or V Standard.
50-80 J-10's which will take various roles
250 JF-17's 
(I don't know) numbers of Mirages in PAF.

This was what PAF was initially looking for anyway, so I think @Tipu7 might be hinting towards a similar behind the door negotiations with Americans by Pakistani's for the remaining F-16's with the CSF.

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## Luosifen

That license was only for the controlled production of the J-11A/Su-27SK Flankers. But, China has been violating that license ever since with the continued production of the J-11B, J-15, and J-16. Clandestinely based on the Su-27SK, Su-33, Su-30MKK respectively.


aliyusuf said:


> But the Russians have uttered only muted protests and have preferred to turn a blind eye to these violations, due to the substantial economic support that it receives in trade with China.
> 
> Also, PMIK is about to embark on a trip to Russia.
> Let's see what comes out of that trip.


From what I remember, Xi Jinping and Putin resolved the IP infringement for the other Flanker versions during one of the meetings in the 2010s, can't remember the specific date right now.


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## Zarvan

aliyusuf said:


> Is it the J-16D?


Most likely something from west.



Vapnope said:


> EW EW EW EW...


EW is most basic thing now for Pakistan. Although if you are hinting at J-16 D then that is most likely not true. In all probability it's something from west.


----------



## Big_bud

Goritoes said:


> Not long ago when J-10 rumors once again hit PDF few members who are not so active here mentioned about Medium/Long Range Radars from US, at that time there was talks of buying jets from East and West, and we just got ones from the EAST, so now lets keep the figures crossed for the ones from the west, with J-10's PAF now have a fighter with AESA and longer range AAM so Americans will be bit more reluctant towards releasing the 18 old block 52's along with option to upgrade the fleet with V standards, yes its a high guess game but the world is changing and so does Pakistan armed forces and their weapon acquisitions.
> 
> PAF currently holds around 80 F-16's adding those 18 will give them the number they always were looking for, +/- 100 units all upgraded to either 52s or V Standard.
> 50-80 J-10's which will take various roles
> 250 JF-17's
> (I don't know) numbers of Mirages in PAF.
> 
> This was what PAF was initially looking for anyway, so I think @Tipu7 might be hinting towards a similar behind the door negotiations with Americans by Pakistani's for the remaining F-16's with the CSF.



Considering the wait list of orders on F16s, when are the deliveries expected? 2028? Why would Pakistan want more F16s in 2028? We can probably get more J10Cs earlier than that? + they'd probably be more capable.

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## Goritoes

Big_bud said:


> Considering the wait list of orders on F16s, when are the deliveries expected? 2028? Why would Pakistan want more F16s in 2028? We can probably get more J10Cs earlier than that? + they'd probably be more capable.


2028 is a guess date, you don't need to wait for that US can release the 52's which are rusting in their bone yard, at this stage even 18 52's will make a lot of difference for PAF, lets not forget Indian only have less than 30 Rafale that too will take years before they master the plane, but for PAF as other members pointed out, get F-16's and take it to their air, many sq pilots are well trained on them, by the time J10 is mastered by PAF, F-16's will still remain the backbone and offensive punch of PAF in any near or distant conflict with India.


----------



## NA71

Big_bud said:


> Considering the wait list of orders on F16s, when are the deliveries expected? 2028? Why would Pakistan want more F16s in 2028? We can probably get more J10Cs earlier than that? + they'd probably be more capable.


Yes, already in media that Pak may go up to 90 J-10C. 

F-16/Typhoons no chance ....bad economy & geopolitical factors.


----------



## baqai

Enigma SIG said:


> I loved the community with the mods that they built on top of this game, along with BMS and Allied Force. Bought joysticks with POV Hat switches just for this .



I had Saitek X36F combo which i gave away to a friend just last month, now i got myself a Oculus Quest 2 and i am regretting giving it away, exploring ways of getting my hands on another HOTAS without getting killed by wife

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## mingle

Big_bud said:


> Considering the wait list of orders on F16s, when are the deliveries expected? 2028? Why would Pakistan want more F16s in 2028? We can probably get more J10Cs earlier than that? + they'd probably be more capable.


Good point quick delivery would be F15EX and with them PAF can have 50V kits 18 for Blk52 and rest for used jetts from US or third party


----------



## Mentee

NA71 said:


> Yes, already in media that Pak may go up to 90 J-10C.
> 
> F-16/Typhoons no chance ....bad economy & geopolitical factors.





F16 has hampered our airforce's tech and numbers edge significantly plz no more sixteens . In the olden days when we had no choice/options it always felt like paf nay f16 nahi f16 nay paf ko rkha va hai

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## farooqbhai007

Luosifen said:


> Would still be difficult, you'd need to convince the central gov't to clear it for export since the PLA needs J-16D for Pacific operations and don't want any of their EW stuff getting into the wrong hands.



the chinese have already exported the extensive CHL-906 system to Algeria, certain components of which are the primary system that the PLA uses. Additionally the chinese have sold several advanced ground based EW systems to the PA already so dont think the PLA has any problems regarding EW purchases by PA & PAF.

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## Raider 21

Big_bud said:


> Considering the wait list of orders on F16s, when are the deliveries expected? 2028? Why would Pakistan want more F16s in 2028? We can probably get more J10Cs earlier than that? + they'd probably be more capable.


Getting them or buying them. 

Where is the getting part so simple for an aircraft that is 50 million a piece along with another 2-3 million additional adjustments for service commonality in PAF. 

Is there any post here regarding the financing part, unless I missed it somewhere. Given "aid" from the US was a major issue, what's to say the similar form of aid in terms of loans from China wouldn't be a problem in the future.

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## Zarvan

NA71 said:


> Yes, already in media that Pak may go up to 90 J-10C.
> 
> F-16/Typhoons no chance ....bad economy & geopolitical factors.


Both F-16 and Typhoons has chance brother. We are Pakistan. And yes we know about economy and geo political issues. Still they are open and we most likely will be going for them. @Big_bud

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## Luosifen

Were the exports to Algeria PLA-grade or downgraded versions? Though you have a point that Pakistan does get access to higher level tech on account of being a trusted strategic ally, so J-16D wouldn't be impossible if Pakistan could convince the Russians (they want their license fee), though PAF would have to setup a whole new logistics/maintenance line and train pilots on Flankers. Probably simpler to just develop an EW version of the J-10C with the PLAAF?


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## Bleek

Zarvan said:


> Both F-16 and Typhoons has chance brother. We are Pakistan. And yes we know about economy and geo political issues. Still they are open and we most likely will be going for them. @Big_bud


Typhoon when we just got the J-10C? 

Seems unlikely, F-16 is the most probable


----------



## Deino

Luosifen said:


> 🤔 what else is the PAF able to afford right now after all these acquisitions?




IMO the most likely acquisition will be a dedicated EW asset complementing the ZDK-03 AEW and eventually replacing the Blinders. Something like the latest Y-9 ISR variants like the Y-9GX-11 to -14?





MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It was in 2014 that on this very forum and if I am not forgetting also on sino def forum as well that I wrote that Paf had made a deal for the J10's---( and there were a few others---a very few others who knew it and those who believed it ).
> 
> This forum showed some excitement---but the sinodef forum was full of ridicule towards me---specially Deino---.
> 
> Funny thing is that over everything that they ridiculed me---other than the JH7A's---pakistan has most of those items in their colors---and some getting closer to final production.
> 
> Defence procurement is like no other business in the world---and these tech clever looking for LINK, posters, think that the TRUTH is somehow attached to a computer link---.stupidity at a level never seen in the history of mankind---.




And again if you wouldn't be such a blatant liar, you would admit, that the J-10C was never excluded, in fact it was rated from all as the ONLY viable option. 

What we however refused - and in fact still refuse - were your ridiculous claims, Pakistan will get anything and everything for free (including 055 DDGs and your beloved JH-7A) and that those allegedly "unmarked" J-10Cs attending the last Shaeen exercise were already delivered to Pakistan and operational.

But hey, I know I cannot argue with the PDF's biggest liar... and you admitted it even yourself. So maybe this tells all about your the credibility of your posts and your true intentions?

Have a nice day!

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## Big_bud

Goritoes said:


> 2028 is a guess date, you don't need to wait for that US can release the 52's which are rusting in their bone yard, at this stage even 18 52's will make a lot of difference for PAF, lets not forget Indian only have less than 30 Rafale that too will take years before they master the plane, but for PAF as other members pointed out, get F-16's and take it to their air, many sq pilots are well trained on them, by the time J10 is mastered by PAF, F-16's will still remain the backbone and offensive punch of PAF in any near or distant conflict with India.



I remember reading somewhere that US was trying to find a customer for them. But I don't recall if the article stated if they have been sold to someone or not. I think those jets are gone now, either rotten to ground or sold already.


----------



## NA71

Zarvan said:


> Both F-16 and Typhoons has chance brother. We are Pakistan. And yes we know about economy and geo political issues. Still they are open and we most likely will be going for them. @Big_bud


Good luck bhai jan....


----------



## Zarvan

Deino said:


> IMO the most likely acquisition will be a dedicated EW asset complementing the ZDK-03 AEW and eventually replacing the Blinders. Something like the latest Y-9 ISR variants like the Y-9GX-11 to -14?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again if you wouldn't be such a blatant liar, you would admit, that the J-10C was never excluded, in fact it was rated from all as the ONLY viable option.
> 
> What we however refused - and in fact still refuse - were your ridiculous claims, Pakistan will get anything and everything for free (including 055 DDGs and your beloved JH-7A) and that those allegedly "unmarked" J-10Cs attending the last Shaeen exercise were already delivered to Pakistan and operational.
> 
> But hey, I know I cannot argue with the PDF's biggest liar... and you admitted it even yourself. So maybe this tells all about your the credibility of your posts and your true intentions?
> 
> Have a nice day!
> 
> View attachment 816208


Sir from China many weapons are coming for all three forces. So just wait and watch Sir. Next eight 8 years you get lot of shocking news from Pakistan. And weapons not just from China but also from Russia and also west. @NA71 @Big_bud



NA71 said:


> Good luck bhai jan....


This sarcastic good luck I also got when I and many others were claiming about J-10 C around 12 months ago.

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## Deino

Zarvan said:


> Sir from China many weapons are coming for all three forces. So just wait and watch Sir. Next eight 8 years you get lot of shocking news from Pakistan. And weapons not just from China but also from Russia and also west. @NA71 @Big_bud
> 
> 
> This sarcastic good luck I also got when I and many others were claiming about J-10 C around 12 months ago.




Agreed, but first you know my impatience and second I like this discussing different options and weighting probabilities ... as such, there are interesting times ahead, but I still resist to believe that there will be another fighter especially from the West. Anyway, as I said so often ... I like surprises and I have no problem to be proven wrong, but it must be proven!

Anyway, but this is not the correct thread for this discussion.

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## Aesterix

baqai said:


> I had Saitek X36F combo which i gave away to a friend just last month, now i got myself a Oculus Quest 2 and i am regretting giving it away, exploring ways of getting my hands on another HOTAS without getting killed by wife


Don't worry, your wife will find a way to kill you ... at least kill your joy.
That's what wives are for. To make men as boring as women are.

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## Big_bud

Zarvan said:


> Both F-16 and Typhoons has chance brother. We are Pakistan. And yes we know about economy and geo political issues. Still they are open and we most likely will be going for them. @Big_bud



F16s have chance and make logical sense. Except that US has been denying us even Turkish Helis. Plus waiting list. Plus PAF leadership have had enough of US deception when they declined handing our F16s. We went ahead with a whole JF17 program for that? EFT is a potent choice except it does not have an AESA radar as far as I know. Plus its twin engined, expensive and doesn't really fit the bill or doctrine of PAF. PAF always believed in inducting in numbers so doesn't make sense if we have 70 odd F16s, 60 Odd J10cs and some xx odd EFTS as well? Its a khichri! But if F16s... then HOW!!??


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## Riz

NA71 said:


> Yes, already in media that Pak may go up to 90 J-10C.
> 
> F-16/Typhoons no chance ....bad economy & geopolitical factors.


In first phase we will get 3 squadrons , second phase order would be larger then the first one


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## Zarvan

Deino said:


> Agreed, but first you know my impatience and second I like this discussing different options and weighting probabilities ... as such, there are interesting times ahead, but I still resist to believe that there will be another fighter especially from the West. Anyway, as I said so often ... I like surprises and I have no problem to be proven wrong, but it must be proven!
> 
> Anyway, but this is not the correct thread for this discussion.


It will take some time but INSHALLAH proof will come.

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## Vapnope

Zarvan said:


> EW is most basic thing now for Pakistan. Although if you are hinting at J-16 D then that is most likely not true. In all probability it's something from west


Not J16D..


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## Zarvan

Vapnope said:


> Not J16D..


EW are happening but this is not what Tipu is referring too.


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## The Terminator

Riz said:


> Name would be remain same with just addition of (P) J-10CP , if F-16 and mirages names remained same what is with Chines jets ?


it could be. But, Well it would be a relatively new phenomena in PAF if we bring the history into the context. F-6, A-5, F-7 and in Musharraf era J-10 was reported as FC-20 in the news when rumors started for their acquisition into the PAF back then


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## chinasun



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## Deino



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## kursed

My money is on HD-1(series) of weapons and/or a Y-9 EW platform.

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## Goenitz

Trailer23 said:


>


You should make these kinds of videos too... Just watch karoordarshan. It will help both politically and brush your skills. 
The best thing I have in mind is to show coamprison between 2013 IA parade and 2022 Parade. It is much more RSSnised now. No cultural floats but 'mandir' floats.


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## The Terminator

Zarvan said:


> What do you think is happening right now. They won't announce it on loud speaker until deal is finalized. Just like J-10 C wasn't announced. If they reach the deal it would be announced so relax. We are not going to give them bases or end our relationship with China to get F-16. If they want to sell us weapons fare enough if they don't we give a dam. We have several other options.


Currently we are on a right track to strike a balance between 2 great world powers. China is our neighbor, time tested friend and global manufacturing powerhouse, while US has still the biggest market and military prowess, and they still own the petrodollar $$$ printing machines. We are culturally more inclined towards west/US due to our colonial era roots attached with the UK. 

But still we can't deny the fact that China did invest/loan in Pakistan's development projects when nobody was willing to come to Pakistan. We have similar agenda in our foreign policies, shared animosity towards India in Ladakh/Kashmir. 

So it would be foolish to turn against the neighbor, time tested friend China to please some power 3 oceans away. We've been betrayed twice in Afghanistan by the same "ally". Pakistan can't break ties or sit in the opposite camp of China under any foreign pressure. Same could be applied to country like Mexico would never dare to side against US upon request of Russia or China due to proximity and shared border with the US.

When Afghanistan was being liberated from the foreign powers in the August, Pakistan was also going through a policy shift as was most of the world like US, India, Russia etc. to name a few. That's why we are experiencing different approach from the leadership of the US and Pakistan towards each other.

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## The Terminator

Luosifen said:


> 🤔 what else is the PAF able to afford right now after all these acquisitions?


New AESA equipped Eurofighter Typhoons or F-15EX 😜🤣🤣


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## The Terminator

Zarvan said:


> Both F-16 and Typhoons has chance brother. We are Pakistan. And yes we know about economy and geo political issues. Still they are open and we most likely will be going for them. @Big_bud


Lockheed Martin's proposed F-22/F-35 hybrid for Pakistan has also a chance. 😜


----------



## Beast

aliyusuf said:


> That license was only for the controlled production of the J-11A/Su-27SK Flankers. But, China has been violating that license ever since with the continued production of the J-11B, J-15, and J-16. Clandestinely based on the Su-27SK, Su-33, Su-30MKK respectively.
> 
> But the Russians have uttered only muted protests and have preferred to turn a blind eye to these violations, due to the substantial economic support that it receives in trade with China.
> 
> Also, PMIK is about to embark on a trip to Russia.
> Let's see what comes out of that trip.


There are different understanding to the contract of 200 J11A/Su-27sk. Chinese thought they bought both 200 frame kits plus rights for continue production of Su-27 related fighter. In fact, we Chinese told Russian the intention right from start and they never say say a thing. They only complain when the J-11b, full domestic version of Su-27sk produced. It is then the conflict about the right started.

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## The Terminator

Zarvan said:


> Both F-16 and Typhoons has chance brother. We are Pakistan. And yes we know about economy and geo political issues. Still they are open and we most likely will be going for them. @Big_bud


Now we would latest AESA equipped JF-17B3 and J-10C, it would be beneficial for US and it's allies to sell surplus/retired fighters to Pakistan to earn some quick bucks or to retain some leverage upon Pakistani decision makers in the longer run. Nothing force multiplier is going to be coming from US for Pakistan. They don't even have the grace to release Pakistani cobras which our Army needs badly.


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## Pakistan Space Agency

JohnWick said:


> Very good
> A machine which is saving your a** for 40 years , use it as a target practice


So you believe, "Agar F-Sola na hota, to aaj Pakistan na hota?"

Whatever platform Pakistan had acquired in the 1980s-1990s would've been adapted to provide maximum defence of the nation.

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## That Guy

ozranger said:


> Rafale's avionics is even inferior to that of F-17 Block 3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Radar comparison between JF-17 B3 and Rafale
> 
> 
> This post https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/can-someone-explain-the-difference-between-the-french-rafael-vs-chinese-j-10c.732278/ drew my attention and raised my interest investigating radar performance difference between JF-17 Block III and Rafale. First thing we need to know Rafale has a smaller...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


Did you read the reply?

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## Foinikas

I doubt the J-10 is as good as the Rafale but in the hands of the Indians...I don't know. Still it's a great addition to the Pakistani Air Force. Well done guys.

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## Mentee

chinasun said:


> One advantage of buying the J-10c is that Pakistan only needs to buy 25 aircraft for air force training, and if the situation is tense, China can produce more than 100 aircraft a year. Save money and develop the economy.
> Pakistan does not need quantity to buy Chinese weapons.






Economies usually develop momentum in peace time and in Pakistan's case it's bigger foe won't let it enjoy sustained economic growth ---------until pak raises conventional capabilities to a plateau where india would have to think thrice for even getting into a limited politically motivated skirmish . 




So yes if a 7-9 4+gen. squadrons forces our eatern neighbour to become dormant/tone it down for atleast two consecutive decades , spending a couple of billions on defence is worth it.

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## Zarvan

The Terminator said:


> Currently we are on a right track to strike a balance between 2 great world powers. China is our neighbor, time tested friend and global manufacturing powerhouse, while US has still the biggest market and military prowess, and they still own the petrodollar $$$ printing machines. We are culturally more inclined towards west/US due to our colonial era roots attached with the UK.
> 
> But still we can't deny the fact that China did invest/loan in Pakistan's development projects when nobody was willing to come to Pakistan. We have similar agenda in our foreign policies, shared animosity towards India in Ladakh/Kashmir.
> 
> So it would be foolish to turn against the neighbor, time tested friend China to please some power 3 oceans away. We've been betrayed twice in Afghanistan by the same "ally". Pakistan can't break ties or sit in the opposite camp of China under any foreign pressure. Same could be applied to country like Mexico would never dare to side against US upon request of Russia or China due to proximity and shared border with the US.
> 
> When Afghanistan was being liberated from the foreign powers in the August, Pakistan was also going through a policy shift as was most of the world like US, India, Russia etc. to name a few. That's why we are experiencing different approach from the leadership of the US and Pakistan towards each other.


We can't choose USA over China. That is not what I am saying but we can still have good relationship with USA. We won't take any aid and in return if we pay full price they should agree to sell us the weapons we want to buy. That is what equal relationship should be. Don't ask for any discount if you have money buy the weapon and they as seller should not have issue in selling weapons to us as we are paying full price.



kursed said:


> My money is on HD-1(series) of weapons and/or a Y-9 EW platform.


Those are done deals but no those are not BUT.


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## The Eagle

We have an active thread of J-10C for PAF. Shouldn't we merge both?

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## The Eagle

siegecrossbow said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> What I suggested has little to do with US Pakistanis relations. The real question is whether Pakistan will bold enough to accept the F-16Vs when the time comes.
> 
> That said, nothing is for certain. We will know when the time comes, if at all.



I got your point Dear. I was merely pointing towards something misunderstood by the people, when it comes to Pakistan US relations. Most of opinion is based upon emotions & political behaviours. When it comes to Mil to Mil; relations are different and cooperation exists and can't be rejected on plain face. Both will continue in certain departments unless total self reliance by Pakistan. For example


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493208404365508609


Pakistan Space Agency said:


> US President can't even bother to say, "Hello" to PM Imran Khan?



Is that even needed or is it because of usual political trolling keep coming up with such low & cheap shots.

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## maverick1977

US only respects nations that respects themselves.. Pakistan has an independent foreign policy and things will be in Pakistans favor overtime

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## Shotgunner51

The Terminator said:


> Currently we are on a right track to strike a balance between 2 great world powers. China is our neighbor, time tested friend and global manufacturing powerhouse, while US has still the biggest market and military prowess, and they still own the petrodollar $$$ printing machines. We are culturally more inclined towards west/US due to our colonial era roots attached with the UK.
> 
> But still we can't deny the fact that China did invest/loan in Pakistan's development projects when nobody was willing to come to Pakistan. We have similar agenda in our foreign policies, shared animosity towards India in Ladakh/Kashmir.
> 
> So it would be foolish to turn against the neighbor, time tested friend China to please some power 3 oceans away. We've been betrayed twice in Afghanistan by the same "ally". Pakistan can't break ties or sit in the opposite camp of China under any foreign pressure. Same could be applied to country like Mexico would never dare to side against US upon request of Russia or China due to proximity and shared border with the US.
> 
> When Afghanistan was being liberated from the foreign powers in the August, Pakistan was also going through a policy shift as was most of the world like US, India, Russia etc. to name a few. That's why we are experiencing different approach from the leadership of the US and Pakistan towards each other.


Excellent assessment!

Yes Pakistan-China alliance is built on solid foundation (common prosperity goal aka BRI, common threat aka India) while Pakistan stays out of China-US rivalry, it's realpolitik and how all nations operate. It's also in China's national interests to have an ally who owns an unique diplomatic sphere of influence.

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## Blueskiez 2001

Hydration said:


> why is this thread so active



Exactly...

We are observing what 2 pictures can do to a tread....


----------



## aliyusuf

Zarvan said:


> Both F-16 and Typhoons has chance brother. We are Pakistan. And yes we know about economy and geo political issues. Still they are open and we most likely will be going for them. @Big_bud





Big_bud said:


> F16s have chance and make logical sense. Except that US has been denying us even Turkish Helis. Plus waiting list. Plus PAF leadership have had enough of US deception when they declined handing our F16s. We went ahead with a whole JF17 program for that? EFT is a potent choice except it does not have an AESA radar as far as I know. Plus its twin engined, expensive and doesn't really fit the bill or doctrine of PAF. PAF always believed in inducting in numbers so doesn't make sense if we have 70 odd F16s, 60 Odd J10cs and some xx odd EFTS as well? Its a khichri! But if F16s... then HOW!!??


Agreed that Typhoons are too expensive and w/o AESA to be a viable contender.

But even if we get F-16V's or Typhoon, the main issue is the weaponry that would be on offer on them.

Would the west offer its top of the line air to air and air to surface and ship weapons systems?

No way in hell would they offer anything that would surpass that which India has after 2/27/2019.

Would the west offer anything even close to PL-15?

Should we go for a toothless and clawless tiger?

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## Zarvan

aliyusuf said:


> Agreed that Typhoons are too expensive and w/o AESA to be a viable contender.
> 
> But even if we get F-16V's or Typhoon, the main issue is the weaponry that would be on offer on them.
> 
> Would the west offer its top of the line air to air and air to surface and ship weapons systems?
> 
> No way in hell would they offer anything that would surpass that which India has after 2/27/2019.
> 
> Should we go for a toothless and clawless tiger?


Yes west would sell you their top of the line Air to Air and Air to Ground weapons as long as you are ready to pay for them. India is not that big of a issue.

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## Blueskiez 2001

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It was in 2014 that on this very forum and if I am not forgetting also on sino def forum as well that I wrote that Paf had made a deal for the J10's---( and there were a few others---a very few others who knew it and those who believed it ).
> 
> This forum showed some excitement---but the sinodef forum was full of ridicule towards me---specially Deino---.
> 
> Funny thing is that over everything that they ridiculed me---other than the JH7A's---pakistan has most of those items in their colors---and some getting closer to final production.
> 
> Defence procurement is like no other business in the world---and these tech clever looking for LINK, posters, think that the TRUTH is somehow attached to a computer link---.stupidity at a level never seen in the history of mankind---.



So are you implying that Pakistan made a deal for j-10 in 2014??


----------



## arjunk

My last brain cell before the math exam starts:


Trailer23 said:


>


----------



## Deino

arjunk said:


> My last brain cell before the math exam starts:




Best luck to you!


----------



## aliyusuf

Zarvan said:


> Yes west would sell you their top of the line Air to Air and Air to Ground weapons as long as you are ready to pay for them. India is not that big of a issue.


Well, I think differently.
Israel has its agenda associated with India vis-a-vis Pakistan. Their lobby is the most powerful in the US. They most likely won't allow it.


----------



## The Eagle

GumNaam said:


> frankly I think it was a shit move by bajwa, it will look like he is going running to the americans while the government is trying to strengthen alliances with China and Russia. I mean, WHY? Kia zaroorat hay amreekans ko ghaans daal ney ki?! 😑



May be it's the way how you see it but he is not going by himself. It is all discussed, planned & permitted accordingly. You don't just shut doors without asking as of first so not to regret later. Maintaining the balance is much more harder than choosing sides and former needs lot of patience, guts & skills.

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## Zarvan

aliyusuf said:


> Well, I think differently.
> Israel has its agenda associated with India vis-a-vis Pakistan. Their lobby is the most powerful in the US. They most likely won't allow it.


If Israeli lobby would have been able to stop it we won't have gotten F-16 in 80s. We would get weapons which we want as long as we have money INSHALLAH

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## maverick1977

Besides Sq 15 with J10C, what other sq is in play for J10Cs?


----------



## aliyusuf

Zarvan said:


> If Israeli lobby would have been able to stop it we won't have gotten F-16 in 80s. We would get weapons which we want as long as we have money INSHALLAH


That was when the Afghan-Soviet tussle was going on and the US was using Pakistan as the trouble maker in chief for the Soviets. So that deal was a necessary payment as a guarantee for cooperation from the Pakistanis. But we did not get the BVR enabled version of the F-16's back then. Israel had AIM-7F and am not sure whether they had the AIM-120A back then. They were flying the BVR enabled Mighty Eagles.

Things are much different today.

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## Zarvan

aliyusuf said:


> That was when the Afghan-Soviet tussle was going on and the US was using Pakistan as the trouble maker in chief for the Soviets. So that deal was a necessary payment as a guarantee for cooperation from the Pakistanis. But we did not get the BVR enabled version of the F-16's back then. Israel had AIM-7F and am not sure whether they had the AIM-120A back then. They were flying the BVR enabled Mighty Eagles.
> 
> Things are much different today.


Don't boys know what they are doing. They won't make deal based on risk. Just relax and wait and watch lot of things in play for all three forces.


----------



## aliyusuf

Zarvan said:


> Don't boys know what they are doing. They won't make deal based on risk. Just relax and wait and watch lot of things in play for all three forces.


Well brother, of course, they must be. For sure.
But that is subject to the possibility that such deals are being negotiated at all within the context you are suggesting, in the first place.

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## Zarvan

aliyusuf said:


> Well brother, of course, they must be. For sure.
> But that is subject to the possibility that such deals are being negotiated at all within the context you are suggesting, in the first place.


INSHALLAH they are and lot more will be discussed. In next 8 to 10 years INSHALLAH we would buy lot of big weapons for all our forces from both China and Russia but also Europe and USA and other countries.

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## aliyusuf

Zarvan said:


> INSHALLAH they are and lot more will be discussed. In next 8 to 10 years INSHALLAH we would buy lot of big weapons for all our forces from both China and Russia but also Europe and USA and other countries.


So one of these inductions will be made public on 23rd March?


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## Blueskiez 2001

Zarvan said:


> INSHALLAH they are and lot more will be discussed. In next 8 to 10 years INSHALLAH we would buy lot of big weapons for all our forces from both China and Russia but also Europe and USA and other countries.


We should not buy but develop and produce the weapons ourselves....


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## Ghessan

so who is going to 23 March Parade for some high resolution photographs to share at forum?


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## untitled

aliyusuf said:


> But we did not get the BVR enabled version of the F-16's back then.


PAF received the Block 15 F-16s. AIM-7 was not integrated on F16s until the Block 25. The ability was retrofitted on earlier blocks when the first MLU became available which the PAF missed out on

PS.. We would have most likely got the AIM-7 earlier had we opted for the F-20 Tigershark



aliyusuf said:


> am not sure whether they had the AIM-120A back then.


The AIM-120 became operational in the USAF late in the first Gulf war (1991). During this war they were captive carried but not fired in anger.

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## Chak Bamu

The Eagle said:


> We have an active thread of J-10C for PAF. Shouldn't we merge both?


Please do.

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## redtom

farooqbhai007 said:


> the chinese have already exported the extensive CHL-906 system to Algeria, certain components of which are the primary system that the PLA uses. Additionally the chinese have sold several advanced ground based EW systems to the PA already so dont think the PLA has any problems regarding EW purchases by PA & PAF.


China already has a fairly sophisticated weapons export system. It now appears that in addition to the products that failed in the PLA's bidding, companies will develop weapons systems specifically for export. Sensitive technologies will be on the control list and require special approval from the competent authorities.This gives companies clear rules and makes it easier for them to develop new weapons for foreign trade.


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## PakShaheen79

If 25 J-10CP are coming by the end of this month, will they all go in a single squadron? i.e. Sq. 15.
As we know PAF is reportedly going for around 60ish J-10C, it means there must be at least one new squadron i.e. increase in Sq strength. But if that happens it would be interesting to see under which PAF command it is raised.


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## The Eagle

Chak Bamu said:


> Please do.



Adding on; we will allow only a new thread like "Pakistan Air Force J-10C Discussion" when these jets are here and officially inducted. Members shall not create separate thread for the same discussion as of this anymore. We can utilize this thread till then. I think everyone will agree with that.

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## Zarvan

aliyusuf said:


> So one of these inductions will be made public on 23rd March?


No one is saying induction is done. Or even a deal is signed but things are in progress. Many things are near deal, and some are in starting phase and some in middle. And some may be quietly inducted so yes something can be shown on 23rd March. Apart from J-10 C, Z-10 ME, HQ 9, SH 15 and other systems.



PakShaheen79 said:


> If 25 J-10CP are coming by the end of this month, will they all go in a single squadron? i.e. Sq. 15.
> As we know PAF is reportedly going for around 60ish J-10C, it means there must be at least one new squadron i.e. increase in Sq strength. But if that happens it would be interesting to see under which PAF command it is raised.


18+18+18 that makes 3 squadrons and last 6 will be CCS.


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## untitled

The Eagle said:


> Pakistan Air Force J-10C Discussion"


I bet there will be at least 5+ threads when the jets land

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## The Eagle

untitled said:


> I bet there will be at least 5+ threads when the jets land



ahahha... I understand that. But we will merge all with an OP having quality based start of discussion, some points about Jet, some points about its possible role in PAF, some points regarding weaponry, some history in regard to PAF deal to purchase etc.... actually an interesting OP with induction ceremony will make it a good thread. I will close the rest of or merge them into one "Pakistan Air Force J-20 Discussion".

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## Trailer23

Zarvan said:


> We have several other options.


Sorry, i'm not getting in on F-16 band-wagon just yet.

But care to tell us what these several options are. Lets leave out China that to my opinion is our *ONLY* option.

Case in point: J-10C/E


Goritoes said:


> PAF currently holds around 80 F-16's


We have 75.


Big_bud said:


> Considering the wait list of orders on F16s, when are the deliveries expected? 2028?


*2022* - First off the Assembly Line.
*2023* - Flight Testing
*2024* - Delivery begins for Launch Customer (Bahrain)

*08* - Bulgaria
*12* - Jordan (order placed earlier this month)
*14* - Slovakia
*16* - Bahrain
*24* - Morocco
*66* - Taiwan

You round that figure & its a 140 Jets on order without a single one produced (so far). If the Delivery starts in 2024 (as reported by Aviation Week), Lockheed Martin would have to produce 35 a year for all of them to be delivered by 2028. Not gonna happen.
@Hodor @Raider 21

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## maverick1977

Get J10C and then Replace F16s by the end of Decade with Project Azm Stealth Aircraft. No need to Upgrade F16s, divert funds of $3Bill on Project Azm and get a 5th Gen aircraft at $60-70M a piece. 

Say good buy to F16 upgrades, nothing like independence in weapons systems.

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## The Eagle

NA71 said:


>



AM didn't discuss about J-10 for the fact of its capability remains secret. A machine to compete in modern day warfare of its class and come out superior in its role. Undoubtedly, J-10C is not that simply a fighter jet to be treated as such. I wouldn't be surprised that nothing of its capabilities will remain untold same as like JF-17 Block-III. At-least, it should be told at all.

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## The Eagle

Mentee said:


> conventional capabilities





Mentee said:


> limited politically motivated skirmish



As far as I have been reading India; it is my personal assessment in nutshell that Indians don't even think or compare both the circumstances at all when it is about achieving their goals. I mean, when it comes to achieve their political goals and boast the electoral process for BJP Victory; empty skulls don't even know what is a conventional capability and what could mean by a military skirmish at all. However, their defence/Military personnel do know the outcome but since a decade they too have become the election campaigners under Modi regime. The religious hate, personal greed, the so much of caste superiority, the brahmin mindset and all the falsified glorification have made them like a perfect couple to burn this region. 

For Pakistan, I think we will have to keep building the defence walls since we are living with a crazy neighbour that solely believes in his caste superiority being inspired by Nazi movement.

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## SQ8

Goritoes said:


> If that turn out to be true, I will personally drive from SC to where you live to give you Asr-e-Shereen Mithai box, with a large box of Rees and a live size Teddy bear with Heart.


Well
The problem is if it never happens was it true or not?



TheDarkKnight said:


> Any chance of it being paid via blocked CSF? Going how even Afghan reserves were split, it looks impossible.


The issue is no longer funds but congressional approvals.

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## untitled

maverick1977 said:


> Get J10C and then Replace F16s by the end of Decade with Project Azm Stealth Aircraft


I think PAF's first goal is to replace the Mirages by the end of this decade


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## PanzerKiel

Several J10s have already been detailed and will shortly surface (maybe if anyone is able to take a pic) on Wild Weasel role.

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## SQ8

Desert Fox 1 said:


> All discussions down with the newly announced Indo-Pacific strategy of US. No mention of Pakistan.


That is why it will likely not be pushed anymore.

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## Reichmarshal

We are getting the su 35 from China, I think 24 is the no.

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## The Eagle

SQ8 said:


> Well
> The problem is if it never happens was it true or not?
> 
> 
> The issue is no longer funds but congressional approvals.



I will always remember some of lousy mouths shooting it all publicly way before time, if something being told by a good friend; providing an opportunity to saffron grieving souls in D.C to prepare for counter lobbying in advance. I wish, such people and their so-called good friends/uncle/brother/father/ leaking anything could be dealt and done for the sake of National Interest.

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## SQ8

PanzerKiel said:


> Several J10s have already been detailed and will shortly surface (maybe if anyone is able to take a pic) on Wild Weasel role.


Must be a very good RHAWS kit. 
Would be cooler if they have figured out how to fit both a PL-15 and the Arm on the same dual ejector.

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## Ghessan

The Eagle said:


> AM didn't discuss about J-10 for the fact of its capability remains secret. A machine to compete in modern day warfare of its class and come out superior in its role. Undoubtedly, J-10C is not that simply a fighter jet to be treated as such. I wouldn't be surprised that nothing of its capabilities will remain untold same as like JF-17 Block-III. At-least, it should be told at all.



what are those "smart inductions" he mentioned being short term solutions?

besides i found him more open and detailed on subject under discussion than other AVMs or AMs. good to hear long term planning as he detailed on enhancement of air power and capabilities, technological advancement in aviation and aerospace on a more serious note now leading to indigenization. Even training curriculum is under review then cyber space.

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## Zarvan

Trailer23 said:


> Sorry, i'm not getting in on F-16 band-wagon just yet.
> 
> But care to tell us what these several options are. Lets leave out China that to my opinion is our *ONLY* option.
> 
> Case in point: J-10C/E
> 
> We have 75.
> 
> *2022* - First off the Assembly Line.
> *2023* - Flight Testing
> *2024* - Delivery begins for Launch Customer (Bahrain)
> 
> *08* - Bulgaria
> *12* - Jordan (order placed earlier this month)
> *14* - Slovakia
> *16* - Bahrain
> *24* - Morocco
> *66* - Taiwan
> 
> You round that figure & its a 140 Jets on order without a single one produced (so far). If the Delivery starts in 2024 (as reported by Aviation Week), Lockheed Martin would have to produce 35 a year for all of them to be delivered by 2028. Not gonna happen.
> @Hodor @Raider 21


One is from Europe then off course we have USA. Then one country on our really north is also there. Lot of things are in play just wait and watch. Lot of systems are in and more will come. Like I said INSHALLAH in next one decade or two you won't have time to relax you would be hearing about one weapon system after another for all three forces.


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## The Eagle

Ghessan said:


> what are those "smart inductions" he mentioned being short term solutions?
> 
> besides i found him more open and detailed on subject under discussion than other AVMs or AMs. good to hear long term planning as he detailed on enhancement of air power and capabilities, technological advancement in aviation and aerospace on a more serious note now leading to indigenization. Even training curriculum is under review then cyber space.



Smart induction are the solutions like weapons that you have without replacing existing platform or even burdening your budget allocations, to deal with threat in a manner where you still keep the edge over your adversary. AWC is playing a very key role in this regard. Induction term cannot be treated here for the Fighter Jet alone. Secondly, you are overhauling or upgrading your current fleet and after test validations; Air Force has the hand over it. 

Similarly, these might looks like short term solutions but it carries a bigger impact in regard to future and long term planning. As we used to say before that any tech being incorporated on Block-III will somehow pave way for the 5th Gen advancements like existing platform provides you enough room and opportunity to test, validate, improve and incorporate. For example, Block-III has its advance HUD & couple of more techs that are directly benefitting J-20 as well. 

Thirdly, you are inducting J-10C whereby, NGF for PAF is a long distance shot. Till that time & period; one cannot compromise over defence requirement under threat assessment and risking to be left behind by the enemy in particular area. PAF will maintain the edge, the first see and first shoot capability by all means. Whether short term or long term; the ladder remains with Pakistan. These short term smart inductions are actually going to impact & play a bigger role in long term and future of PAF. Till induction of yet another advance platform be it 4.5++ or an NGF replacing fleet of F-16s; Pakistan cannot afford to wait & be vulnerable.

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## Trailer23

Zarvan said:


> One is from Europe then off course we have USA. Then one country on our really north is also there.


So, by _Europe_ you're pointing at EuroFighter Typhoon.

Country in the _North_ is Russia.

And finally, you said _USA_.

*Europe (EuroFighter Typhoon):* Which Tranche are you targeting? Can you (Pakistan) even afford the cost of its maintenance when European nations are giving up on them & putting them in storage. Its no surprise they are trying to shove them down the throats of countries like Indonesia (who passed on the offer) & now Bangladesh. There is a term for people like that. *SUCKERS!

Russia:* Have you found the hack of how you're gonna bypass *CAATSA*? If so, we're all ears.

*USA (F-16):* The fact that you're getting *J-10's* today is a clear indication that F-16's were never on the table. They could have been - depending on us bending over and being the US's b!tch for another a few decades.

That being said, I won't let it by me that Pakistan didn't try on a number of occasions - whenever they had a chance. But in the end, when it comes to the US - its all about _"What are you willing to do for us?"_, followed by _"Here's a list."_

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## The Eagle

Waiting said:


> Any one expecting anything from US, plz first stop getting black list in next meeting of FATF



Not related and no black list at all. Only Indians can pray & wish till then. I don't know who told you that Pakistan is getting blacklist. Honestly, I only read political foul mouths & cheap propagandists doing so merely in PTI rivalry ( I don't mind for domestic consumption) but shaming us all before the world.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Zarvan said:


> If Israeli lobby would have been able to stop it we won't have gotten F-16 in 80s. We would get weapons which we want as long as we have money INSHALLAH


Even Zion supplied weapons for the Mujahideen in the 1980s.

Pakistan was provided those F-16s back then purely for defence against the Soviet Union. But the Soviet empire didn't last long, hence, a few years after the initial acquisition, further F-16 sales were quickly blocked.


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## serenity

Reichmarshal said:


> We ate getting the su 35 from China, I think 28 is the no.



This would be an interesting sale but China has 24 Su-35 not 28!

Those 24 were also relatively forced due to friendly state of affairs and warming relations between Russia and China back in around 2015 times when China did try to pull out of the Su-35 deal which was considered and informally agreed between the two around 2010.

Su-35 being the hedge bet against J-11D program and J-20. J-20 became more successful than anticipated and the only one to take over the top tier in PLAAF out of the three paths - J-11D, Su-35, J-20.

J-16 was multirole and while it is better than both Su-35 and J-11D (even if the program finished as it was able) the J-16 is not air superiority focused as J-11D program is.

It was too diplomatically difficult around 2015 for China to renege on the Su-35 agreement with Russia and both discussed a compromise, a very small batch purchase as a gesture. Something Chinese agreed to happily because even though it spends money, at least those Su-35 are useful as even some small means of giving more work to adversary mission planning and strategic planning, it also offered China an insight into the best Russia could offer for 4.5 gen fighter. It is far superior in electronics and performance to Su-30MKI of India's and still working on the same basis of both radar, electronics, weapons, and kinematic performance, only far better in all those domains than the Su-30MKI. For example, their TVC performance and basis is very similar but with Su-35 being slightly better.

So lessons learned, aircraft and its abilities totally evaluated, mission planning distractions for Japanese and others used, it really is not that useful anymore. I think most Chinese military observers and decision making groups would love to sell them to Pakistan if such a sale has a path.

These fighters are not cheap, they are also very expensive to maintain and keep operational. Pakistan would have to go to Russia for parts and services since the engine is 117S and TVC is prone to needing more maintenance. Is it worth it for Pakistan? I'm sure China would be very happy to offload Su-35 but will Pakistan want to pay a fair price for them? I do not think it is in Pakistan's interest to have a small fleet of 24 Su-35 which are going to be extremely complicated for maintenance to keep operationally ready. Pakistan will have to negotiate with Russia and while Russia will not really care if they are sold to Pakistan, will they not care when India pressures them and buys their favor to keep parts delivery and service as slow as possible?

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## Zarvan

Trailer23 said:


> So, by _Europe_ you're pointing at EuroFighter Typhoon.
> 
> Country in the _North_ is Russia.
> 
> And finally, you said _USA_.
> 
> *Europe (EuroFighter Typhoon):* Which Tranche are you targeting? Can you (Pakistan) even afford the cost of its maintenance when European nations are giving up on them & putting them in storage. Its no surprise they are trying to shove them down the throats of countries like Indonesia (who passed on the offer) & now Bangladesh. There is a term for people like that. *SUCKERS!
> 
> Russia:* Have you found the hack of how you're gonna bypass *CAATSA*? If so, we're all ears.
> 
> *USA (F-16):* The fact that you're getting *J-10's* today is a clear indication that F-16's were never on the table. They could have been - depending on us bending over and being the US's b!tch for another a few decades.
> 
> That being said, I won't let it by me that Pakistan didn't try on a number of occasions - whenever they had a chance. But in the end, when it comes to the US - its all about _"What are you willing to do for us?"_, followed by _"Here's a list."_


How many times you people are going to ask that we can afford this or we can afford that ? We as of now have Type 54 A on order, 8 subs on order, Milgem on order, VT 4 on order, JF-17 BLOCK III in production, J-10 C on order. MRL on order Artillery on order, Drones on order. Should I continue. O bhai just relax and let boys do the work and make the deal and trust me deals are taking place talks are ongoing lot of toys will come. @Pakistan Space Agency

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## Reichmarshal

serenity said:


> This would be an interesting sale but China has 24 Su-35 not 28!
> 
> Those 24 were also relatively forced due to friendly state of affairs and warming relations between Russia and China back in around 2015 times when China did try to pull out of the Su-35 deal which was considered and informally agreed between the two around 2010.
> 
> Su-35 being the hedge bet against J-11D program and J-20. J-20 became more successful than anticipated and the only one to take over the top tier in PLAAF out of the three paths - J-11D, Su-35, J-20.
> 
> J-16 was multirole and while it is better than both Su-35 and J-11D (even if the program finished as it was able) the J-16 is not air superiority focused as J-11D program is.
> 
> It was too diplomatically difficult around 2015 for China to renege on the Su-35 agreement with Russia and both discussed a compromise, a very small batch purchase as a gesture. Something Chinese agreed to happily because even though it spends money, at least those Su-35 are useful as even some small means of giving more work to adversary mission planning and strategic planning, it also offered China an insight into the best Russia could offer for 4.5 gen fighter. It is far superior in electronics and performance to Su-30MKI of India's and still working on the same basis of both radar, electronics, weapons, and kinematic performance, only far better in all those domains than the Su-30MKI. For example, their TVC performance and basis is very similar but with Su-35 being slightly better.
> 
> So lessons learned, aircraft and its abilities totally evaluated, mission planning distractions for Japanese and others used, it really is not that useful anymore. I think most Chinese military observers and decision making groups would love to sell them to Pakistan if such a sale has a path.
> 
> These fighters are not cheap, they are also very expensive to maintain and keep operational. Pakistan would have to go to Russia for parts and services since the engine is 117S and TVC is prone to needing more maintenance. Is it worth it for Pakistan? I'm sure China would be very happy to offload Su-35 but will Pakistan want to pay a fair price for them? I do not think it is in Pakistan's interest to have a small fleet of 24 Su-35 which are going to be extremely complicated for maintenance to keep operationally ready. Pakistan will have to negotiate with Russia and while Russia will not really care if they are sold to Pakistan, will they not care when India pressures them and buys their favor to keep parts delivery and service as slow as possible?


Thank u for correcting me


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## Trailer23

Zarvan said:


> How many times you people are going to ask that we can afford this or we can afford that ? We as of now have Type 54 A on order, 8 subs on order, Milgem on order, VT 4 on order, JF-17 BLOCK III in production, J-10 C on order. MRL on order Artillery on order, Drones on order.


Bhai, I can go out today & buy myself the all new INFINITI QX50.

There's only one problem. With the increasing fuel prices, parts & maintenance - i'd be filing for bankruptcy by the end of the year.

For a country like Pakistan, EuroFighters are suicide.

And your above statement only covers the EuroFighter, but you didn't respond for Russia OR the US.

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## ozranger

That Guy said:


> Did you read the reply?


I did. The reply obviously came from someone with zero capability of logical thinking. Given that I quoted huge difference in numbers and materials of those T/R modules on those 2 aircrafts in comparison, this low IQ person still argued on spacing within nose and cooling without giving any concrete evidence.

Remember I was referencing all open source specs in that thread.

If your brain still cannot cope with that, let me show you the figures again,

JF-17 Block 3: KLJ-7A, *over 1000 GaN* T/R modules
Rafale: RBE2-AA *838 GaAs* T/R modules

*Number of T/R modules: JF-17 Block 3 > Rafale

Spec of each T/R module (power output vs temperature): JF-17 Block 3 > Rafale*

Tell me, why would I still need to argue about spacing in the nose or cooling mechanism?

In a BVR fight Rafale will be shot down straight like a burning bird by JF-17 Block 3.

I don't need to take low IQ people seriously. I sincerely hope they can stay on their moronic status ever, forever.

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## Zarvan

Trailer23 said:


> Bhai, I can go out today & buy myself the all new INFINITI QX50.
> 
> There's only one problem. With the increasing fuel prices, parts & maintenance - i'd be filing for bankruptcy by the end of the year.
> 
> For a country like Pakistan, EuroFighters are suicide.
> 
> And your above statement only covers the EuroFighter, but you didn't respond for Russia OR the US.


People who are in power talking deals are not dumb they see everything and if they still let's suppose discussing EF or F-16 Block 72 or something else then they consider it fully viable and not suicide. So just relax and ready to celebrate when they INSHALLAH brake the news.


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## NA71

Sohail Bhai tweeting ...... breaking tweet:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494236662444040192
i dont know is it Pak or China Base

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## FuturePAF

Trailer23 said:


> So, by _Europe_ you're pointing at EuroFighter Typhoon.
> 
> Country in the _North_ is Russia.
> 
> And finally, you said _USA_.
> 
> *Europe (EuroFighter Typhoon):* Which Tranche are you targeting? Can you (Pakistan) even afford the cost of its maintenance when European nations are giving up on them & putting them in storage. Its no surprise they are trying to shove them down the throats of countries like Indonesia (who passed on the offer) & now Bangladesh. There is a term for people like that. *SUCKERS!
> 
> Russia:* Have you found the hack of how you're gonna bypass *CAATSA*? If so, we're all ears.
> 
> *USA (F-16):* The fact that you're getting *J-10's* today is a clear indication that F-16's were never on the table. They could have been - depending on us bending over and being the US's b!tch for another a few decades.
> 
> That being said, I won't let it by me that Pakistan didn't try on a number of occasions - whenever they had a chance. But in the end, when it comes to the US - its all about _"What are you willing to do for us?"_, followed by _"Here's a list."_


The lost opportunity was for the US. Pakistan procured what it needed to maintain parity with India, and the US gave up the leverage the F-16 afforded it. Now that Pakistan has bite the bullet and gone for the J-10, and the ability for Pakistan to procure more J-10 on a “Lend/Lease” basis from China during heightened tensions, it will be less dependent on the F-16 if there are spares/maintenance restrictions imposed in the event of a future conflict.

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## Salza

Zarvan said:


> Those are done deals but no those are not BUT.



You are repeating the same thing like parrot without any solid information. How do you know HD-1(series) of weapons and/or a Y-9 EW platform is a done deal as pointed out by @kursed ? Though we are most likely to get them as well but unlike J10C, there hasn't been any claims from anyone out here on pdf (the one's who knows a little more).

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## Pakistan Space Agency

The Eagle said:


> ... PAF will maintain the edge, the first see and first shoot capability by all means. Whether short term or long term; the ladder remains with Pakistan. ...


*26/02/2019*: India attacked, Pakistan could not defend.
*27/02/2019*: Pakistan attacked, India could not defend.

Both attackers seemed to have the same edge?



Zarvan said:


> How many times you people are going to ask that we can afford this or we can afford that ? We as of now have Type 54 A on order, 8 subs on order, Milgem on order, VT 4 on order, JF-17 BLOCK III in production, J-10 C on order. MRL on order Artillery on order, Drones on order. Should I continue. O bhai just relax and let boys do the work and make the deal and trust me deals are taking place talks are ongoing lot of toys will come. @Pakistan Space Agency


I have never believed that finance is a problem for Pakistan acquiring critical military technology.

When Pakistan wanted the atomic bomb, ballistic missiles and other critical military items for the defence of the nation, Pakistan has never compromised, not even under sanctions.

And, since everyone is on the discussion of Pakistan's financial health, people must realise that since 18 September 2018, the incumbent Government has passed 4 federal budgets totalling $188.63 billion. So relax.

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## The Eagle

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Both attackers seemed to have the same edge?



Thanks for the post. I got it all.


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## Zarvan

Salza said:


> You are repeating the same thing like parrot without any solid information. How do you know HD-1(series) of weapons and/or a Y-9 EW platform is a done deal as pointed out by @kursed ? Though we are most likely to get them as well but unlike J10C, there hasn't been any claims from anyone out here on pdf (the one's who knows a little more).


Just wait and watch. All will be revealed in next days and months and years. Next few days and months and years you would get one news after another. ALLAH is being merciful just wait and you would hear about it. Also EW planes more will come from Europe then China.

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## graphican

luciferdd said:


> I think those old ZDK-03s may will be upgraded with new KLC-7 AESE radar to cooperate with those J-10C.The radar is the same one that on KJ-600 carrier-borne AWACS or a simular thing.
> View attachment 816193
> 
> View attachment 816187



Someone "informed" at this forum had hinted the next good news is even *bigger than the J-10s*. So may be the person was saying it plainly and these are next gen AWACS that can steer PL-15 to max ranges. Not just that, as of my memory, I learned Pakistani AWACS are already in China for upgrade and may be new ones + existing ones are being upgraded to new standard. 

WaAllah o Aalim o Khaibir.

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## Indos

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> And, since everyone is on the discussion of Pakistan's financial health, people must realise that since 18 September 2018, the incumbent Government has passed 4 federal budgets totalling $188.63 billion. So relax.



From that number, how much is funded by debt and how percentage of budget spend on paying the previous debt ???

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## Princeps Senatus

Indos said:


> It is true US permission is needed for exporting KF21, but you can try first
> 
> Chinese until now is not ready to sell their Stealth to other country, while SK is already offering their jet as we speak ( even one European country is interested and also I believe Philippine and Malaysia)
> 
> If India is serious in building their AMCA and Tejas Mark 2, better dont buy anything that can make India respond back with another acquisition like more Rafale.
> 
> But I do hope better lasting peace between Pakistan and India can happen, so Pakistan can concentrate on the economy, while India will only face China


If we acquire Fifth gen and they respond by buying more Rafale, then that's ideal for us.


----------



## Mr.Cringeworth

SQ8 said:


> Combat experience is one aspect - that platform is known in and out including every aspect of experience. I already wrote this elsewhere that the J-10s that land today will take 5 years to be fully integrated into the combat doctrine and 10 to have complete expertise of the system. Flying and taking it up into the air to fight is one thing but understanding availability rates, avionics and maintenance knowledge along with “nuances” takes a while.
> Doesn’t mean they aren’t combat ready but it will only be the pilots from 15sq. A brand new block-72 landing in Pakistan can be taken up into the air by either 5sq, 9 or 11 sq pilots with relatively little training.


Why do you keep bringing the bloc 72's randomly in your conversation are you foreshadowing.

Now I'm really curious


----------



## Pakistan Space Agency

Indos said:


> From that number, how much is funded by debt and how percentage of budget spend on paying the previous debt ???



Aug 2018 to Dec 2021: PTI govt procures $42.748bn foreign loans; $32.7bn repaid

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## Princeps Senatus

Thorough Pro said:


> there are other machines that could have saved our *** without fingering it for 40 years, but you won't understand


like what?


----------



## Taimoor Khan

Foinikas said:


> *I doubt the J-10 is as good as the Rafale* but in the hands of the Indians...I don't know. Still it's a great addition to the Pakistani Air Force. Well done guys.



Lets put things in perspective. 

Rafale, made by France. 

J10 , made by China. The world factory, industrial juggernaut, semi conductor power house, army of top engineers and scientists, the only nation on the planet operating its own space station as we speak. 

Not being biased or anything, but if I have to bet, I know where my money would be.

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## tphuang

A few things here. Getting an EW aircraft into PAF is more important than getting another fighter jet type. Good special missions platform are force multipliers. China is not going to export J-16Ds to PAF. It's not going to export any flanker types for obvious reasons. There is not point debating it. J-10 is too small. So, PAF should seek for Y-9 EW and ELINT type of aircraft. They are not sexy, but the former is critical in suppressing air defense and such. The latter is critical in collecting intelligence. Y-9s are not survivable as J-16Ds, but they are sufficient against an opponent like India. They would help PAF more than additional JF-17s/F-16s/J-10s would. Never underestimate the power of special missions platform. Very few countries have them and very few countries sell them. Aside from China, America and Australia, who really have dedicated EW fighter aircraft? Even aside from that, who has large EW aircraft?

I'm also not understanding this continued obsession over F-16. I understand this is an aircraft that has served PAF very well, but we are getting past the point when they really make sense for PAF. AESA radars are not created equal. In F-16s case, it's airframe has already been pushed to the limit. The internal layout for Block 50 or F-16V were not originally designed for AESA radar. Due to space constraints, heat management and such, there is limit on what kind of AESA radar could be installed in there. Keep in mind that J-10C has more than just AESA radar. J-10's entire internal layout and avionics architecture was updated from J-10A to J-10B in order to support the AESA radar, IRST, EW suite, MAWs and the rest of new generation of avionics. As such, J-10B/C was built with AESA radar and new avionics architecture in mind. Just as you won't get the same performance sticking an AESA radar into J-10A, you also won't get the same performance improvement sticking an AESA radar into block 50 F-16s.

There are reasons that PAF picked J-10C. I think they would've gotten it sooner if China had started using WS-10B on J-10s sooner. They do think it's a worthy foe to Rafale. And there are still future upgrades available that J-10s could support. I'm not sure how much further upgrade the F-16 platform can handle given the limitations I mentioned above.

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## Bilal.

Taimoor Khan said:


> Lets put things in perspective.
> 
> Rafale, made by France.
> 
> J10 , made by China. The world factory, industrial juggernaut, semi conductor power house, army of top engineers and scientists, the only nation on the planet operating its own space station as we speak.
> 
> Not being biased or anything, but if I have to bet, I know where my money would be.


And an 18trillion economy. So lots of funds to sink into RnD.

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## siegecrossbow

tphuang said:


> A few things here. Getting an EW aircraft into PAF is more important than getting another fighter jet type. Good special missions platform are force multipliers. China is not going to export J-16Ds to PAF. It's not going to export any flanker types for obvious reasons. There is not point debating it. J-10 is too small. So, PAF should seek for Y-9 EW and ELINT type of aircraft. They are not sexy, but the former is critical in suppressing air defense and such. The latter is critical in collecting intelligence. Y-9s are not survivable as J-16Ds, but they are sufficient against an opponent like India. They would help PAF more than additional JF-17s/F-16s/J-10s would. Never underestimate the power of special missions platform. Very few countries have them and very few countries sell them. Aside from China, America and Australia, who really have dedicated EW fighter aircraft? Even aside from that, who has large EW aircraft?
> 
> I'm also not understanding this continued obsession over F-16. I understand this is an aircraft that has served PAF very well, but we are getting past the point when they really make sense for PAF. AESA radars are not created equal. In F-16s case, it's airframe has already been pushed to the limit. The internal layout for Block 50 or F-16V were not originally designed for AESA radar. Due to space constraints, heat management and such, there is limit on what kind of AESA radar could be installed in there. Keep in mind that J-10C has more than just AESA radar. J-10's entire internal layout and avionics architecture was updated from J-10A to J-10B in order to support the AESA radar, IRST, EW suite, MAWs and the rest of new generation of avionics. As such, J-10B/C was built with AESA radar and new avionics architecture in mind. Just as you won't get the same performance sticking an AESA radar into J-10A, you also won't get the same performance improvement sticking an AESA radar into block 50 F-16s.
> 
> There are reasons that PAF picked J-10C. I think they would've gotten it sooner if China had started using WS-10B on J-10s sooner. They do think it's a worthy foe to Rafale. And there are still future upgrades available that J-10s could support. I'm not sure how much further upgrade the F-16 platform can handle given the limitations I mentioned above.



I wonder if the rumored J-10D is EW focused on top of having superior weapon load and additional RCS reduction measures. China does not need another dedicated EW bird since it has J-16D or the air force and J-15D for the navy, but Pakistan would benefit from tremendously from an EW variant of J-10. That said, they need to boost engine performance by quite a bit to power EW suite, which is easier said than done for a medium weight aircraft.

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## Taimoor Khan

OK. I checked, they havent arrived yet.

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## SQ8

The Eagle said:


> I will always remember some of lousy mouths shooting it all publicly way before time, if something being told by a good friend; providing an opportunity to saffron grieving souls in D.C to prepare for counter lobbying in advance. I wish, such people and their so-called good friends/uncle/brother/father/ leaking anything could be dealt and done for the sake of National Interest.


Its the same with anything - I told no one and landed in Pakistan and by the time I went back from the visit half of the 300+ people extended family knew even after we asked to tell no one.

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## Foinikas

Taimoor Khan said:


> Lets put things in perspective.
> 
> Rafale, made by France.
> 
> J10 , made by China. The world factory, industrial juggernaut, semi conductor power house, army of top engineers and scientists, the only nation on the planet operating its own space station as we speak.
> 
> Not being biased or anything, but if I have to bet, I know where my money would be.


I'd still bet on the Rafale if it was used by a good Air Force.

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## MH.Yang

serenity said:


> This would be an interesting sale but China has 24 Su-35 not 28!
> 
> Those 24 were also relatively forced due to friendly state of affairs and warming relations between Russia and China back in around 2015 times when China did try to pull out of the Su-35 deal which was considered and informally agreed between the two around 2010.
> 
> Su-35 being the hedge bet against J-11D program and J-20. J-20 became more successful than anticipated and the only one to take over the top tier in PLAAF out of the three paths - J-11D, Su-35, J-20.
> 
> J-16 was multirole and while it is better than both Su-35 and J-11D (even if the program finished as it was able) the J-16 is not air superiority focused as J-11D program is.
> 
> It was too diplomatically difficult around 2015 for China to renege on the Su-35 agreement with Russia and both discussed a compromise, a very small batch purchase as a gesture. Something Chinese agreed to happily because even though it spends money, at least those Su-35 are useful as even some small means of giving more work to adversary mission planning and strategic planning, it also offered China an insight into the best Russia could offer for 4.5 gen fighter. It is far superior in electronics and performance to Su-30MKI of India's and still working on the same basis of both radar, electronics, weapons, and kinematic performance, only far better in all those domains than the Su-30MKI. For example, their TVC performance and basis is very similar but with Su-35 being slightly better.
> 
> So lessons learned, aircraft and its abilities totally evaluated, mission planning distractions for Japanese and others used, it really is not that useful anymore. I think most Chinese military observers and decision making groups would love to sell them to Pakistan if such a sale has a path.
> 
> These fighters are not cheap, they are also very expensive to maintain and keep operational. Pakistan would have to go to Russia for parts and services since the engine is 117S and TVC is prone to needing more maintenance. Is it worth it for Pakistan? I'm sure China would be very happy to offload Su-35 but will Pakistan want to pay a fair price for them? I do not think it is in Pakistan's interest to have a small fleet of 24 Su-35 which are going to be extremely complicated for maintenance to keep operationally ready. Pakistan will have to negotiate with Russia and while Russia will not really care if they are sold to Pakistan, will they not care when India pressures them and buys their favor to keep parts delivery and service as slow as possible?



Yes. In fact, PAF has always had the option to obtain flankers, even those with AESA. 
PLA has 95 su30s, and in 2018, PLA obtained another 24 su35s. The PLA's sale of these flankers does not violate the agreement with Russia. 

The final question remains: does Pakistan really want to get flanks?

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## Riz

SQ8 said:


> Its the same with anything - I told no one and landed in Pakistan and by the time I went back from the visit half of the 300+ people extended family knew even after we asked to tell no one.


Never pass any secret to zarvan again

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## Invictus01

ozranger said:


> JF-17 Block 3: KLJ-7A, *over 1000 GaN* T/R modules
> Rafale: RBE2-AA *838 GaAs* T/R modules
> 
> *Number of T/R modules: JF-17 Block 3 > Rafale
> 
> Spec of each T/R module (power output vs temperature): JF-17 Block 3 > Rafale*



It's not always about the TR modules that Matter in the performance of a radar in BVR engagement

It's about maintaing the lock in an electronically dense environment 
Activitly countering radar jamming all the while trying to avoid getting locked on 

Rafael has an excellent EW suite in the shape of Thales Spectra 

That being said the real performance of the these 2 aircraft/radar can only be judged if they go head to head in a real BVR engagement

Until then all we have is a bunch of info on paper

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## Taimoor Khan

Foinikas said:


> I'd still bet on the Rafale if it was used by a good Air Force.




I am talking from purely platform capabilities, built-in systems, software, electronics, above all, exposure and borrowing tech from 5th gen platforms (J20). France do not have such exposure.

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## Zarvan

Riz said:


> Never pass any secret to zarvan again


Bhai every body is confused many people are saying they landed and many are saying they didn't.. People with cameras are sitting around pictures and still no news.


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## Princeps Senatus

Taimoor Khan said:


> Lets put things in perspective.
> 
> Rafale, made by France.
> 
> J10 , made by China. The world factory, industrial juggernaut, semi conductor power house, army of top engineers and scientists, the only nation on the planet operating its own space station as we speak.
> 
> Not being biased or anything, but if I have to bet, I know where my money would be.


J-10 is not China's top of the line 
J-20 is

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## Riz

Zarvan said:


> Bhai every body is confused many people are saying they landed and many are saying they didn't.. People with cameras are sitting around pictures and still no newss


Bhai no need to hyper , if we all waited for so many years, we can wait for few more days and few weeks too …

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## Princeps Senatus

ozranger said:


> I did. The reply obviously came from someone with zero capability of logical thinking. Given that I quoted huge difference in numbers and materials of those T/R modules on those 2 aircrafts in comparison, this low IQ person still argued on spacing within nose and cooling without giving any concrete evidence.
> 
> Remember I was referencing all open source specs in that thread.
> 
> If your brain still cannot cope with that, let me show you the figures again,
> 
> JF-17 Block 3: KLJ-7A, *over 1000 GaN* T/R modules
> Rafale: RBE2-AA *838 GaAs* T/R modules
> 
> *Number of T/R modules: JF-17 Block 3 > Rafale
> 
> Spec of each T/R module (power output vs temperature): JF-17 Block 3 > Rafale*
> 
> Tell me, why would I still need to argue about spacing in the nose or cooling mechanism?
> 
> In a BVR fight Rafale will be shot down straight like a burning bird by JF-17 Block 3.
> 
> I don't need to take low IQ people seriously. I sincerely hope they can stay on their moronic status ever, forever.


Why is the listed operational range for it so low then compared to Rafale? I am no expert but there's more to radars than the number of T/R modules.


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## Taimoor Khan

Zarvan said:


> EW are happening but this is not what Tipu is referring too.





Zarvan said:


> Those are done deals but no those are not BUT.



My understanding is, its a force multiplier, both in defensive and offensive roles.


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## ozranger

Invictus01 said:


> It's not always about the TR modules that Matter in the performance of a radar in BVR engagement
> 
> It's about maintaing the lock in an electronically dense environment
> Activitly countering radar jamming all the while trying to avoid getting locked on
> 
> Rafael has an excellent EW suite in the shape of Thales Spectra
> 
> That being said the real performance of the these 2 aircraft/radar can only be judged if they go head to head in a real BVR engagement
> 
> Until then all we have is a bunch of info on paper


Laughable!

A company which cannot make GaN based T/R modules and corresponding AESA radars is a shit company in today's technological market as it is a perfect indication that their R&D runs under average in the market. Hence it is very safe to say their EW suites are also far behind in capability as well.

As for China, J-20 and J-16 are reportedly equipped AESA radars with more than 2000 T/R modules each. Can anyone nominate a French made fighter jet which can house such big AESA radars in sizeable nose with proper cooling? Or any French made EW jet can be comparable to J-16D?

The Frenches don't have any platforms comparable to the Chinese. They don't have substantially advanced technologies and lack required R&D capability. 

Visually obvious.

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## NA71

Taimoor Khan said:


> OK. I checked, they havent arrived yet.


Wrong


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## Taimoor Khan

NA71 said:


> Wrong



As of an hour ago, they havent.


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## JamD

Imagine being able to do to the Rafales, what PAF did to the Mirage 2000s on 27th Feb. Imagine generating diversionary tracks in the enemy's ADGE like the IAF had to on the 26th BUT without actually commiting three flights of jets to the ruse. I think that's a pretty huge deal. But that's just my opinion.

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## Windjammer

A rare shot of HUD capture showing a Lock On on Su-30MKK2 Flanker by a J-10A during DACT.

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## That Guy

ozranger said:


> I did. The reply obviously came from someone with zero capability of logical thinking. Given that I quoted huge difference in numbers and materials of those T/R modules on those 2 aircrafts in comparison, this low IQ person still argued on spacing within nose and cooling without giving any concrete evidence.
> 
> Remember I was referencing all open source specs in that thread.
> 
> If your brain still cannot cope with that, let me show you the figures again,
> 
> JF-17 Block 3: KLJ-7A, *over 1000 GaN* T/R modules
> Rafale: RBE2-AA *838 GaAs* T/R modules
> 
> *Number of T/R modules: JF-17 Block 3 > Rafale
> 
> Spec of each T/R module (power output vs temperature): JF-17 Block 3 > Rafale*
> 
> Tell me, why would I still need to argue about spacing in the nose or cooling mechanism?
> 
> In a BVR fight Rafale will be shot down straight like a burning bird by JF-17 Block 3.
> 
> I don't need to take low IQ people seriously. I sincerely hope they can stay on their moronic status ever, forever.


Lmao, Dunning-Kruger much?

You literally didn't read his comment, lmao.

@SQ8

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## Leviza

Can we keep the discussion to the fighters we are getting only ? 

Duniya ka koi fighter plan nahi chora discussion mai 

Geo politics bhi discuss ho gai hai 

Come on guy keep it to what’s coming and enjoy that

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## lcloo

My bet on the next surprise on the fly past day would be a strike bomber fighter, probably from Russia.

There are enough fighter jet types in PAF, but the Mirages are old and need to be replaced, or at least supplement by a more powerful jet like SU-24 or SU-34.


----------



## alikazmi007

Trailer23 said:


> So, by _Europe_ you're pointing at EuroFighter Typhoon.
> 
> Country in the _North_ is Russia.
> 
> And finally, you said _USA_.
> 
> *Europe (EuroFighter Typhoon):* Which Tranche are you targeting? Can you (Pakistan) even afford the cost of its maintenance when European nations are giving up on them & putting them in storage. Its no surprise they are trying to shove them down the throats of countries like Indonesia (who passed on the offer) & now Bangladesh. There is a term for people like that. *SUCKERS!
> 
> Russia:* Have you found the hack of how you're gonna bypass *CAATSA*? If so, we're all ears.
> 
> *USA (F-16):* The fact that you're getting *J-10's* today is a clear indication that F-16's were never on the table. They could have been - depending on us bending over and being the US's b!tch for another a few decades.
> 
> That being said, I won't let it by me that Pakistan didn't try on a number of occasions - whenever they had a chance. But in the end, when it comes to the US - its all about _"What are you willing to do for us?"_, followed by _"Here's a list."_



Bhai, please don't piss Zarvan off, he makes things happen when other's doubt the crap outta everything ..... LoL. I think we should call him "PEER SAHIB Zarvan"!

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## siegecrossbow

Rumor has it the unit price is 50 million dollars… You guys got a very very good deal. Thank you Modi.

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## Viper27

Trailer23 said:


> Older JF-17's (Block I's) currently have to fly to China to be overhauled. I don't see any reason why we can't setup shop here.



Negative. Block 1 Thunders were overhauled at Kamra a couple of years back.

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## White privilege

Base these new birds at Murid. You can't even park a car at Mushaf or Kamra now. It's so crowded.


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## Zarvan

Taimoor Khan said:


> My understanding is, its a force multiplier, both in defensive and offensive roles.


If I know Tipu well they are not force multiplier. They are for sure fighter jets. Yes force multipliers in different forms are also part of future inductions but he is referring to fighter jets.



Trailer23 said:


> Older JF-17's (Block I's) currently have to fly to China to be overhauled. I don't see any reason why we can't setup shop here.


You seriously need to start updating your information. JF-17 are over hauled here. Few years ago PAF also released the photo of first JF-17 which was over hauled in Kamra

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## Windjammer

Basically, I am hoping these guys have their cameras ready to capture the arrival of the J-10s just like they managed to capture the departure of PLAAF aircrafts from Pakistan after the last Shaheen exercise.

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## Princeps Senatus

siegecrossbow said:


> Rumor has it the unit price is 50 million dollars… You guys got a very very good deal. Thank you Modi.


i was expecting less


----------



## bananarepublic

Princeps Senatus said:


> i was expecting less


The 30% percent discount promotion ended last December. You know back to school offer

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## Stealth

Pakistan should get Su-34 and mark this sentence on it

"hamary tu jahazoon may b toilets hain... Rafalae kay bajaye toilet he banalo khoti day oo"

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## Riz

White privilege said:


> Base these new birds a Murid. You can't even park a car at Mushaf or Kamra now. It's so crowded.


Was too much air activity yesterday at Murid


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## TNT

Zarvan said:


> Yes west would sell you their top of the line Air to Air and Air to Ground weapons as long as you are ready to pay for them. India is not that big of a issue.


Yes sure why not. Just as the new cold war is starting against china by the west, they will certainly provide their top of the line A2A and A2G weapons to the most closest ally of china. 
Do u think they are brainless like many Pakistanis? Or they broke and urgently in need of the massive dollars that Pakistan have? Lolz
Amazes me to see senior members behave and talk like 5th graders on such issues.

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## siegecrossbow

Princeps Senatus said:


> i was expecting less



If it were China would be exporting at a loss.

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## Deino

Wow 😮 not only since it is the first image of a Batch 07 J-10C, but also since it confirms indeed that the J-10CPs for Pakistan are Batch 07! 

And this is already the 20th J-10C within the 7th Batch.

(Image via liming1995/SDF)

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## Zee-shaun

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493557773812088841

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## Beast

Princeps Senatus said:


> i was expecting less


Then it will have less capabilities. Dont ask too much.

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## Princeps Senatus

siegecrossbow said:


> If it were China would be exporting at a loss.


nvm then


----------



## Trailer23

alikazmi007 said:


> Bhai, please don't piss Zarvan off, he makes things happen when other's doubt the crap outta everything ..... LoL. I think we should call him "PEER SAHIB Zarvan"!


Abay mujhay kya




samaj rakha hai - kay mai _Peer Sahib_ ko naraz karo.

Pata challa kay muj par fatwa nikal-wa-deya. Mairay batcho ka kya hoga?

Ye tou bus..., pyar-mohabat may baat-cheet chalti rh-ti hai.

If Zarvan bhai says its a done deal - then its set in stone. Period!

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## Foinikas

Taimoor Khan said:


> I am talking from purely platform capabilities, built-in systems, software, electronics, above all, exposure and borrowing tech from 5th gen platforms (J20). France do not have such exposure.


Don't forget that most of the Chinese jet fighters are copies of Soviet and Russian models. 

You underestimate Dassault and France. The Rafale is one of the best jet fighters out there in the hands of a good Air Force.

I'll say it again,in the hands of a good Air Force. What did the IAF do with their Su-30s? Nothing. They blamed it as being a bad aircraft.

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## Princeps Senatus

Foinikas said:


> Don't forget that most of the Chinese jet fighters are copies of Soviet and Russian models.
> 
> You underestimate Dassault and France. The Rafale is one of the best jet fighters out there in the hands of a good Air Force.
> 
> I'll say it again,in the hands of a good Air Force. What did the IAF do with their Su-30s? Nothing. They blamed it as being a bad aircraft.


tbf Su-30 is bad

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## Foinikas

Princeps Senatus said:


> tbf Su-30 is bad


What I'm saying is that Pakistan has better pilots and a better mindset. They don't crash every single aircraft they buy and they have shot down enough Indian jet fighters since Kargil. If I'm not mistaken.

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## Bleek

Foinikas said:


> What I'm saying is that Pakistan has better pilots and a better mindset. They don't crash every single aircraft they buy and they have shot down enough Indian jet fighters since Kargil. If I'm not mistaken.


1965 was the real beat down in Pathankot

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## Windjammer

Deino said:


> Wow 😮 not only since it is the first image of a Batch 07 J-10C, but also since it confirms indeed that the J-10CPs for Pakistan are Batch 07!
> 
> And this is already the 20th J-10C within the 7th Batch.
> 
> (Image via liming1995/SDF)
> 
> View attachment 816294


@Deino 
Does the batch 7 incorporate any additional or special features.


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## TopGun786

That seems very good 👌
PAF will have their own datalink 17.

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## TaimiKhan

Deino said:


> Wow 😮 not only since it is the first image of a Batch 07 J-10C, but also since it confirms indeed that the J-10CPs for Pakistan are Batch 07!
> 
> And this is already the 20th J-10C within the 7th Batch.
> 
> (Image via liming1995/SDF)
> 
> View attachment 816294



So the initial batch of 20-25jets for PAF seems to be correct for now.

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## Foinikas

Bleek said:


> 1965 was the real beat down in Pathankot


Thanx for posting that video,man! I was laughing when they asked the pilots "How many times have they shot you down?" 

These guys had great morale from what I see.

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## Deino

Do you see what I see?

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## siegecrossbow

Foinikas said:


> Thanx for posting that video,man! I was laughing when they asked the pilots "How many times have they shot you down?"
> 
> These guys had great morale from what I see.



In all fairness he probably shot down like 20 F-104s and 30 J-6s each time he was downed, all without firing a shot too.

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## Mentee

The Eagle said:


> As far as I have been reading India; it is my personal assessment in nutshell that Indians don't even think or compare both the circumstances at all when it is about achieving their goals. I mean, when it comes to achieve their political goals and boast the electoral process for BJP Victory; empty skulls don't even know what is a conventional capability and what could mean by a military skirmish at all. However, their defence/Military personnel do know the outcome but since a decade they too have become the election campaigners under Modi regime. The religious hate, personal greed, the so much of caste superiority, the brahmin mindset and all the falsified glorification have made them like a perfect couple to burn this region.
> 
> For Pakistan, I think we will have to keep building the defence walls since we are living with a crazy neighbour that solely believes in his caste superiority being inspired by Nazi movement.




Well if indian deep state is committed to any fairy tale uttered by some jotshi/fortune teller then i can only pity the advancing indian military columns- ------ the outcome could be more gruesome than Soviet's pushing its infantry in front of german tigers .


Mind you there's no Berlin in this part of the world neither Normandy.

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## Deino

Windjammer said:


> @Deino
> Does the batch 7 incorporate any additional or special features.




Not that I know for sure but at least it is one of those lacking the datalink antenna as such I think it is safe to say it is a CP ... and it seems to be a HMCS(HMD?!

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## KampfAlwin

Deino said:


> Do you see what I see?
> 
> View attachment 816315


I see pilot with HMDS with those multiple black bulges around the helmet.


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## PakFactor

Deino said:


> Not that I know for sure but at least it is one of those lacking the datalink antenna as such I think it is safe to say it is a CP ... and it seems to be a HMCS(HMD?!
> 
> View attachment 816316



PAF will install its own datalink?

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## iLION12345_1

PakFactor said:


> PAF will install its own datalink?


Yes, Link-17.

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## Taimoor Khan

Foinikas said:


> Don't forget that most of the Chinese jet fighters are copies of Soviet and Russian models.
> 
> You underestimate Dassault and France. The Rafale is one of the best jet fighters out there in the hands of a good Air Force.
> 
> I'll say it again,in the hands of a good Air Force. What did the IAF do with their Su-30s? Nothing. They blamed it as being a bad aircraft.



J10 is copy of which Soviet/Russian jet? 

Does France/Dassault got 5th gen fighters in service? We all know J10 borrowed technology from China 5th gen platforms, like the J20. I would go on to say that even Eurofighter do not have such exposure.

At the end of the day, you are comparing a product from a developed nation to one from a super power. 

A good air force/pilots is another debate.

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## Riz

Deino said:


> Not that I know for sure but at least it is one of those lacking the datalink antenna as such I think it is safe to say it is a CP ... and it seems to be a HMCS(HMD?!
> 
> View attachment 816316


One antenna and flight formation light , two things are the difference between J-10c and J-10cp

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## Readerdefence

Hi we Pakistani still delusional about what we got back in 1980s in shape of F16 or cobras or to some extent stingers (which been unofficially nicked from credit line of taliban) those were the days when USA is like a head less chicken after ussr and due to Afghan war usa want to settle the vietnam era casualties beside chance of stopping RED bear first time infact make bear to revert back as after world war USSR never been retrieved whoever they invade physically 
so at that time F16 isnt a big deal to get if all experienced member remember even f16 been given little late to tackle Afghan airforce in shape of Russian airforce 
so when communist or ussr comes in front of Americans they don’t even listen to their near and dear Israel 
but now things have changed until unless Pakistan rise against China USA does not need Pakistani help 
so even if GOP ready to pay USA to get something that something will come not later then until india have something better or been bought from usa 
Rest assured GOP doesn’t have enough fund to pay to China to develop some5hing earlier then Chinese do themselves that’s the reason PAF is not seeing any J31/35 at the moment 
the moment Chinese navy operationalise their better carrier to have stealth on it Pakistan will get it automatically 
thank you


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## Trailer23

Deino said:


> Not that I know for sure but at least it is one of those lacking the datalink antenna as such I think it is safe to say it is a CP ... and it seems to be a HMCS(HMD?!
> 
> View attachment 816316


Could be this one. Took these pics at the CATIC pavilion during the DxB Air Show last year.

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## Riz

J-10CP






J-10C

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## Foinikas

Taimoor Khan said:


> J10 is copy of which Soviet/Russian jet?
> 
> Does France/Dassault got 5th gen fighters in service? We all know J10 borrowed technology from China 5th gen platforms, like the J20. I would go on to say that even Eurofighter do not have such exposure.
> 
> At the end of the day, you are comparing a product from a developed nation to one from a super power.
> 
> A good air force/pilots is another debate.


I said most Chinese jet fighters are copies of Soviet and Russian models. 

The J-10 is rumored to have been inspired by the Lavi. I don't know if that's true or not and I don't care. 

In the hands of the Pakistani Air Force it can be a very good aircraft. 

But don't you tell me that just because Chinese is a superpower,they can make super amazing jet fighters and that France can't. Yes France doesn't have a 5th generation fighter,but the Rafale has features that make it similar to a stealth fighter. 

I mean,France is a big tech power too. You might hate the French like most of the other Pakistanis here,but you must acknowledge that they have been a big name in aviation and military technology too. What are we talking about here? That because the Chinese have made a 5th generation jet fighter,they are superior? Who tells me that it's as good as the F-22 or the F-35? Even the Su-57 didn't sell as much as the Russians wanted.



siegecrossbow said:


> In all fairness he probably shot down like 20 F-104s and 30 J-6s each time he was downed, all without firing a shot too.


But that's the thing,he wasn't shot down. The Indians kept saying they shot down the Pakistani pilots again and again

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## Bleek

Foinikas said:


> I said most Chinese jet fighters are copies of Soviet and Russian models.
> 
> The J-10 is rumored to have been inspired by the Lavi. I don't know if that's true or not and I don't care.
> 
> In the hands of the Pakistani Air Force it can be a very good aircraft.
> 
> But don't you tell me that just because Chinese is a superpower,they can make super amazing jet fighters and that France can't. Yes France doesn't have a 5th generation fighter,but the Rafale has features that make it similar to a stealth fighter.
> 
> I mean,France is a big tech power too. You might hate the French like most of the other Pakistanis here,but you must acknowledge that they have been a big name in aviation and military technology too. What are we talking about here? That because the Chinese have made a 5th generation jet fighter,they are superior? Who tells me that it's as good as the F-22 or the F-35? Even the Su-57 didn't sell as much as the Russians wanted.
> 
> 
> But that's the thing,he wasn't shot down. The Indians kept saying they shot down the Pakistani pilots again and again


I agree with you but I don't think the technological gap is much, it will come down to tactics and skill. 

Also China is progressing much faster, they can upgrade the J-10 at a faster pace with newer technologies that will easily outclass the Rafale, they have 5th generations in service and likely working on 6th. 

Overall I think for Pakistan the J-10 was always the better choice even if we had access to something like the Rafale. We aren't just getting current tech, but future upgrades, and with China that's a massive boost.


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## Pakistan Space Agency

Deino said:


> Wow 😮 not only since it is the first image of a Batch 07 J-10C, but also since it confirms indeed that the J-10CPs for Pakistan are Batch 07!
> 
> And this is already the 20th J-10C within the 7th Batch.
> 
> (Image via liming1995/SDF)
> 
> View attachment 816294


So many were produced even during the pandemic, yet no photographs were leaked or even spotted from satellite imagery.

Unless the ones that were seen on tarmac last year belonging to PLAAF, were actually these.

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## ghazi52



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## Salza

28 guests hmmm

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## Bleek

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 816328
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 816329


Could be different sides


----------



## Foinikas

Bleek said:


> I agree with you but I don't think the technological gap is much, it will come down to tactics and skill.
> 
> Also China is progressing much faster, they can upgrade the J-10 at a faster pace with newer technologies that will easily outclass the Rafale, they have 5th generations in service and likely working on 6th.
> 
> Overall I think for Pakistan the J-10 was always the better choice even if we had access to something like the Rafale. We aren't just getting current tech, but future upgrades, and with China that's a massive boost.


Well if the Americans won't sell you F-15s or F-35s and the French won't sell you Rafale and the Russians won't sell you Su-35s...you might as well go for the J-10. It's a good addition to Pakistan's Air Force.

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## cssniper

Foinikas said:


> I said most Chinese jet fighters are copies of Soviet and Russian models.
> 
> The J-10 is rumored to have been inspired by the Lavi. I don't know if that's true or not and I don't care.
> 
> In the hands of the Pakistani Air Force it can be a very good aircraft.
> 
> But don't you tell me that just because Chinese is a superpower,they can make super amazing jet fighters and that France can't. Yes France doesn't have a 5th generation fighter,but the Rafale has features that make it similar to a stealth fighter.
> 
> I mean,France is a big tech power too. You might hate the French like most of the other Pakistanis here,but you must acknowledge that they have been a big name in aviation and military technology too. What are we talking about here? That because the Chinese have made a 5th generation jet fighter,they are superior? Who tells me that it's as good as the F-22 or the F-35? Even the Su-57 didn't sell as much as the Russians wanted.


The Indians think their Rafales could confront J-20, so you agree with them.
Anyway goodluck to you, the Turks are kicked out of F-35 program,so you Greeks don't need to face F-35 with these "superior" Rafales.


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## Foinikas

cssniper said:


> The Indians think their Rafales could confront J-20, so you agree with them.
> Anyway goodluck to you, the Turks are kicked out of F-35 program,so you Greeks don't need to face F-35 with these "superior" Rafales.


Who said I agree with them? Did you even read my posts?

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## Taimoor Khan

Pretty decent punch isnt it? 

When they are home, PAF media team should take pictures from top, above the clouds, at dawn or dusk, with these three beauties flying in formation, fully loaded. 

Power projection is must. Have to destroy the will of enemy nations to fight you.

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## aziqbal

I can only image the capability the PAF has now 

ASEA equipped JF17 Block III and J10C 

this is unbelievable

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## cssniper

Foinikas said:


> Who said I agree with them? Did you even read my posts?


Yeah I read them, "super amazing almost- stealth jet fighter" RAFALE.


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## Pappa Alpha

Taimoor Khan said:


> Pretty decent punch isnt it?
> 
> When they are home, PAF media team should take pictures from top, above the clouds, at dawn or dusk, with these three beauties flying in formation, fully loaded.
> 
> Power projection is must. Have to destroy the will of enemy nations to fight you.
> 
> 
> View attachment 816333


A far cry from the PAF of early 2000s

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## kursed

graphican said:


> Someone "informed" at this forum had hinted the next good news is even *bigger than the J-10s*. So may be the person was saying it plainly and these are next gen AWACS that can steer PL-15 to max ranges. Not just that, as of my memory, I learned Pakistani AWACS are already in China for upgrade and may be new ones + existing ones are being upgraded to new standard.
> 
> WaAllah o Aalim o Khaibir.


AEW&C aircraft do not steer Air to Air missiles. It's a hoax.

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## Eagle_Nest

Hi Congrats! Every one is talking about the jets only. Whats the package? I mean armaments, any sort of tot etc


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## Aesterix

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> *26/02/2019*: India attacked, Pakistan could not defend.
> *27/02/2019*: Pakistan attacked, India could not defend.
> 
> Both attackers seemed to have the same edge?
> 
> 
> I have never believed that finance is a problem for Pakistan acquiring critical military technology.
> 
> When Pakistan wanted the atomic bomb, ballistic missiles and other critical military items for the defence of the nation, Pakistan has never compromised, not even under sanctions.
> 
> And, since everyone is on the discussion of Pakistan's financial health, people must realise that since 18 September 2018, the incumbent Government has passed 4 federal budgets totalling $188.63 billion. So relax.


Pakistan had a superior edge as we shot down two of their jets.
The evidence is Abhinandan chaddi , still hanging in the PAF museum.

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## cssniper

Foinikas said:


> If the Indians had F-15s would you have mocked the F-15 as a bad airplane just because the Indians had it?


No, just the Indians. Rafale is a good plane, nevertheless, there are better ones.


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## Fioril

Taimoor Khan said:


> Pretty decent punch isnt it?
> 
> When they are home, PAF media team should take pictures from top, above the clouds, at dawn or dusk, with these three beauties flying in formation, fully loaded.
> 
> Power projection is must. Have to destroy the will of enemy nations to fight you.
> 
> 
> View attachment 816333


R to L 
F-16 , Chinese F-16 , Budget F-16 😁😁

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## JohnWick

Eagle_Nest said:


> Hi Congrats! Every one is talking about the jets only. Whats the package? I mean armaments, any sort of tot etc



J-10C
AESA
IRST
HMD
PL-8
PL-10
PL-12
PL-15
Glide bombs
Laser guided bombs
Antiship missiles like TL-7
RAAD Nuclear capable

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## Foinikas

cssniper said:


> No, just the Indians. Rafale is a good plane, nevertheless, there are better ones.


Then why can't you understand what I'm saying?


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## JohnWick

cssniper said:


> No, just the Indians. Rafale is a good plane, nevertheless, there are better ones.


That's why I always said to buy J-31 AKA J-35 5th gen platform so that we can threaten the existence of India

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## Luosifen

As some others have said previously on this thread, no one can truly know whether the Rafael or J10-C is better than the other until they face each other in combat. Honestly though, the outcome of air warfare these days depend on so many other factors (AWACS, EW support, quality of pilot training, quality of maintenance, weapons employed) that its hard to distinguish if it is the aircraft itself or those other factors that tipped the balance of an engagement.

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## JohnWick

This is what we can call a long mile achievement

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## Luosifen

JohnWick said:


> You can say that in this way
> Either France has better tech
> Or China has better tech
> You know what I means


China is ahead of France in many fields of technology these days, all the same I'd rather overestimate an opponent's capabilities and plan accordingly than underestimate and eat a Feb 27 or a 1962 outcome like a certain nation.

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## Bossman

Taimoor Khan said:


> J10 is copy of which Soviet/Russian jet?
> 
> Does France/Dassault got 5th gen fighters in service? We all know J10 borrowed technology from China 5th gen platforms, like the J20. I would go on to say that even Eurofighter do not have such exposure.
> 
> At the end of the day, you are comparing a product from a developed nation to one from a super power.
> 
> A good air force/pilots is another debate.


Israel 😆

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## kursed

Deino said:


> Do you see what I see?
> 
> 
> Deino said:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 816315
Click to expand...

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## Areesh

siegecrossbow said:


> Rumor has it the unit price is 50 million dollars… You guys got a very very good deal. Thank you Modi.



Modi hai to mumkin hai


----------



## JohnWick

Areesh said:


> Modi hai to mumkin hai


If Modi G reign upto 2030 then may be he can got us with a 5th gen platform also

MAY LONG SHALL HE REIGN

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## cssniper

Foinikas said:


> Then why can't you understand what I'm saying?



It's a little off topic now so let's foucs on Rafale and J-10C.
Let me tell you what's the differences between them especially for PAF.
J-10C has a lower price and lower mantaining cost.
J-10C could be paid by loans from China.
J-10C could be modifed to meet PAF's need.
J-10C could be deliverd much faster.
China is a strategy ally to Pakistan so the support would be more realiable.(Don't forget what did the French do to Argentina)
About performance
Firing range of PL-15 is above Meteor.
J-10C has a better AESA radar,
J-10C would work better with ZDK-03 AWACS.
The multi-role capacitys of J-10C are weaker,but what PAF needs most is a plane that could counter Rafale.

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## Orca16

Foinikas said:


> If the Indians had F-15s would you have mocked the F-15 as a bad airplane just because the Indians had it?



LOL yes because anything in Indian hands is useless … btw can you reset my password bud?


----------



## Foinikas

Orca16 said:


> LOL yes because anything in Indian hands is useless … btw can you reset my password bud?


That doesn't mean that the F-15 is a bad jet fighter. That means the Indians can't use it well.


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## ghazi52

Nice idea....
See the red one...

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## JohnWick

Foinikas said:


> That doesn't mean that the F-15 is a bad jet fighter. That means the Indians can't use it well.


Rafale is no match for J-10C 
I mean China is just on the blink of surpass USA in aviation tech You are saying that a country like France has an edge over its pivot fighter jet In which world are you living ?

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## Foinikas

JohnWick said:


> Rafale is no match for J-10C
> I mean China is just on the blink of surpass USA in aviation tech You are saying that a country like France has an edge over its pivot fighter jet In which world are you living ?


Ok sir. If you say so. J-10C is the Raptor of the East.

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## NA71

Chinese technicians Pakistani J-10C par tail maltey hoey (Malish kartey hoey)

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## cssniper

JohnWick said:


> J-10C
> AESA
> IRST
> HMD
> PL-8
> PL-10
> PL-12
> PL-15
> Glide bombs
> Laser guided bombs
> Antiship missiles like TL-7
> RAAD Nuclear capable


Anti-Radiation Missile.

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## Khan vilatey

NA71 said:


> Chinese technicians Pakistani J-10C par tail maltey hoey
> 
> View attachment 816357


Kushti say phlay pahlwan ka godaey daba rahey hein 

K


----------



## Falcon26

Deino said:


> Wow 😮 not only since it is the first image of a Batch 07 J-10C, but also since it confirms indeed that the J-10CPs for Pakistan are Batch 07!
> 
> And this is already the 20th J-10C within the 7th Batch.
> 
> (Image via liming1995/SDF)
> 
> View attachment 816294



What do we know about the helmet? 

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD


----------



## siegecrossbow

NA71 said:


> Chinese technicians Pakistani J-10C par tail maltey hoey (Malish kartey hoey)
> 
> View attachment 816357



Pakistanis pilot checking out the bird during one of the Shaheen exercises. Hopefully he'll be one of the first to get a ride.

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## Bleek

JohnWick said:


> Rafale is no match for J-10C
> I mean China is just on the blink of surpass USA in aviation tech You are saying that a country like France has an edge over its pivot fighter jet In which world are you living ?


Be sensible man, what is this?

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## Goenitz

siegecrossbow said:


> Pakistanis pilot checking out the bird during one of the Shaheen exercises. Hopefully he'll be one of the first to get a ride.
> 
> View attachment 816362


Just a revelation.. he is @PanzerKiel  
On a serious note: Are those three flags? for what!
Edit: Lights. I got it.

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## MultaniGuy

It appears China is very supportive of Pakistan. Not surprisingly, because China has to defend its interests in Pakistan as well.
China has invested a lot in Pakistan.

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## siegecrossbow

Goenitz said:


> Just a revelation.. he is @PanzerKiel
> On a serious note: Are those three flags? for what!
> Edit: Lights. I got it.



Those are light strips for formation flying.

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## Maxpane

First pilot on j 10 would be shaz uz din

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## Goenitz

kursed said:


> AEW&C aircraft do not steer Air to Air missiles. It's a hoax.


Man.. I was hoping that ZDK may steer PL-15, while B3 has turned off its radar, and even give search data to HQ-9. It cd Netweork Centric ++.

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## Aesterix

What are these?


----------



## SQ8

That Guy said:


> Lmao, Dunning-Kruger much?
> 
> You literally didn't read his comment, lmao.
> 
> @SQ8


Pretty much - the bar for online “expertise” is “I am going to copy paste from wikipedia, make my logic and then call names to anyone who disagrees with me”

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## kursed

Goenitz said:


> Man.. I was hoping that ZDK may steer PL-15, while B3 has turned off its radar, and even give search data to HQ-9. It cd Netweork Centric ++.


AEW&C radars are not fire control radars.

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## Bilal.

Aesterix said:


> View attachment 816366
> 
> 
> What are these?


Strip is the cooling mechanism for the AESA and the round one is the light for re-fueling probe.

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## SQ8

Aesterix said:


> View attachment 816366
> 
> 
> What are these?


Formation lights

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## Big_bud

Trailer23 said:


> So, by _Europe_ you're pointing at EuroFighter Typhoon.
> 
> Country in the _North_ is Russia.
> 
> And finally, you said _USA_.
> 
> *Europe (EuroFighter Typhoon):* Which Tranche are you targeting? Can you (Pakistan) even afford the cost of its maintenance when European nations are giving up on them & putting them in storage. Its no surprise they are trying to shove them down the throats of countries like Indonesia (who passed on the offer) & now Bangladesh. There is a term for people like that. *SUCKERS!
> 
> Russia:* Have you found the hack of how you're gonna bypass *CAATSA*? If so, we're all ears.
> 
> *USA (F-16):* The fact that you're getting *J-10's* today is a clear indication that F-16's were never on the table. They could have been - depending on us bending over and being the US's b!tch for another a few decades.
> 
> That being said, I won't let it by me that Pakistan didn't try on a number of occasions - whenever they had a chance. But in the end, when it comes to the US - its all about _"What are you willing to do for us?"_, followed by _"Here's a list."_



There is only one plausible option i.e. getting some used F16s from a country that's thinking of retiring them. Then getting them upgraded from USA/ another partner country. Maybe Iraq swapping our BVR enabled JF17s with their non BVR F16s? Pakistan already has BVR capability with its F16s so it should not be any problem for us to get Iraqi/some other country's toothless F16s upgraded. Such an arrangement:
1. Fits the bill
2. Fits the doctrine
3. Fits ease of maintainance & supply chain
4. Doesn't hurt uncle SAMs ego
5. Has been done before by PAF with Jordan

The more I think of it, the more it appears that used F16s with upgradation is in the works! Thats good...!

I don't think PAF would induct any new platform as that would force India to go and buy more too. They have F15s already on the offer. If we get EFTs or some SU35s or some bigger bird as being speculated by some here. Then India would renspond to such acquisition by placing some kind of urgent order of its own. Used F16s on the other hand would just make them sad but not panicked.

If such an arrangement is in the works, I totally support it! Good luck to our shaheens trying to secure such a deal & good luck finding more used F16s! 100+ F16s would bring down maintainance costs and reduce work load on existing F16s. Very & only logical step IMO.

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## Aesterix

Deino said:


> Not that I know for sure but at least it is one of those lacking the datalink antenna as such I think it is safe to say it is a CP ... and it seems to be a HMCS(HMD?!
> 
> View attachment 816316


Yes, the helmet look much sophisticated. I was thinking the same. Stop copying me 😤


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## SQ8

Bilal. said:


> Strip is the cooling mechanism for the AESA and the round one is the light for re-fueling probe.


Could be those as well - I saw similarities to formation lights on US platforms.


----------



## Aesterix

SQ8 said:


> Formation lights


مطلب w11 style?

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## JohnWick

Bleek said:


> Be sensible man, what is this?


AH.... Your brain can't except the truth.... You know what a latest variant of a fighter jet with serving a fleet of 1000 in PLAAF is certainly better than rafale
Just remember two simple things
1 It is the "C" variant
With better AESA radar than rafale
And better missile package like PL-15
2 Better thrust to weight ratio
Engine thrust is also same
75KN+75KN=150KN for rafale
145KN for J-10C but
Remember J-10C is one Ton(80kg) less in weight than rafale
I can say some SPECTRA EW suit capability is better in rafale but still It can be upgraded in J-10C with time So it doesn't matter and don't try that retard man argument !

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## SQ8

Aesterix said:


> مطلب w11 style?


There are similar ones on the tail as well so that’s where the guess came from

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## StormBreaker

Aesterix said:


> مطلب w11 style?


Not W-11, But bureaucrat ka bacha triggering police sirens uselessly on roads, Trying to look like army chief.

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## Aesterix

SQ8 said:


> There are similar ones on the tail as well so that’s where the guess came from


Well it could be. Let's see.


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## Bilal.

SQ8 said:


> Could be those as well - I saw similarities to formation lights on US platforms.


It looks similar to the one on JFT and also seems to be on the same side and position of where the probe would be.


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## That Guy

Big_bud said:


> There is only one plausible option i.e. getting some used F16s from a country that's thinking of retiring them. Then getting them upgraded from USA/ another partner country. Maybe Iraq swapping our BVR enabled JF17s with their non BVR F16s? Pakistan already has BVR capability with its F16s so it should not be any problem for us to get Iraqi/some other country's toothless F16s upgraded. Such an arrangement:
> 1. Fits the bill
> 2. Fits the doctrine
> 3. Fits ease of maintainance & supply chain
> 4. Doesn't hurt uncle SAMs ego
> 5. Has been done before by PAF with Jordan
> 
> The more I think of it, the more it appears that used F16s with upgradation is in the works! Thats good...!
> 
> I don't think PAF would induct any new platform as that would force India to go and buy more too. They have F15s already on the offer. If we get EFTs or some SU35s or some bigger bird as being speculated by some here. Then India would renspond to such acquisition by placing some kind of urgent ordernof its own. Used F16s on the other hand would just make them sad but not panicked.
> 
> If such an arrangement is in the works, I totally support it! Good luck to our shaheens trying to secure such a deal & good luck finding more used F16s! 100+ F16s would bring down maintainance costs and reduce work load on existing F16s. Very & only logical step IMO.


I doubt it, Pakistan tried buying used f-16s from Jordan, the US blocked the deal.

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## Aesterix

Well the Helmet , does not look "Normal" . Original picture from @Deino.


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## Trailer23

That Guy said:


> I doubt it, Pakistan tried buying used f-16s from Jordan, the US blocked the deal.


Which ones, Sir?

Did we attempt to get more after 13 we got in 2014 that are currently with No. 19 Sqn (Sherdils)?


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## Big_bud

That Guy said:


> I doubt it, Pakistan tried buying used f-16s from Jordan, the US blocked the deal.



Update ur info, we using them since 2014. Talks fell with US for new F16s. Then PAF bought used from Jordan and got MLUs on them.

https://defense-update.com/20140219_pakistan-receive-13-f-16s-jordan.html


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## Windjammer

Big_bud said:


> Update ur info, we using them since 2014. Talks fell with US for new F16s. Then PAF bought used from Jordan and got MLUs on them.
> 
> https://defense-update.com/20140219_pakistan-receive-13-f-16s-jordan.html


Later in 2016, Jordan put up another 15 F-16 for sale which Pakistan was keen to acquire, the deal was blocked by US. 









Pakistan's bid to buy F-16s from Jordan would require US approval


"The proposed terms and conditions of the Letter of Offer and Acceptance for this proposed sale of F-16 aircraft expired on May 24," the official said.




economictimes.indiatimes.com

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## Big_bud

Windjammer said:


> Later in 2016, Jordan put up another 15 F-16 for sale which Pakistan was keen to acquire, the deal was blocked by US.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan's bid to buy F-16s from Jordan would require US approval
> 
> 
> "The proposed terms and conditions of the Letter of Offer and Acceptance for this proposed sale of F-16 aircraft expired on May 24," the official said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> economictimes.indiatimes.com



Maybe to force Pakistan for a different outcome in Afghanistan. Now with them being done with Afghanistan. I'd assume they will be ok to let Pk have some more F16s. 

As:
1. It doesn't give any new capability or edge to PAF over IAF
2. PAF still buys weapons and upgrades from USA (US maintians some leverage)
3. To not completely push Pakistan to Chinese camp

I think more F16s is the only palusible option here IF a fighter jet from west is joining us too. IF...


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## PakFactor

Big_bud said:


> Maybe to force Pakistan for a different outcome in Afghanistan. Now with them being done with Afghanistan. I'd assume they will be ok to let Pk have some more F16s.
> 
> As:
> 1. It doesn't give any new capability or edge to PAF over IAF
> 2. PAF still buys weapons and upgrades from USA (US maintians some leverage)
> 3. To not completely push Pakistan to Chinese camp
> 
> I think more F16s is the only palusible option here IF a fighter jet from west is joining us too. IF...



Down the road we need stealth planes F-35 types; we can't wait for India to induct and then we counter we need to stay multiple steps ahead and integrate these assets.


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## Luosifen

PakFactor said:


> Down the road we need stealth planes F-35 types; we can't wait for India to induct and then we counter we need to stay multiple steps ahead and integrate these assets.


China will most likely offer up stealth fighters for PAF if India makes tangible progress towards getting stealth of their own. You never know with operational security in China though, PAF could be training on such fighters years in advance of any announcement.

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## The Terminator

Zarvan said:


> Yes west would sell you their top of the line Air to Air and Air to Ground weapons as long as you are ready to pay for them. India is not that big of a issue.


Nope wrong answer by a long shot. Gulf countries have all the money in the world to even purchase F-22 raptor s but still struggle to source 4.5 gen fighters like what Saudis face issues regarding Typhoons acquisition. And now these countries facing blackmailing regarding acquisition of the F-35s. They can even fund whoke F-35 assembly lines in their own countries as far as funds are concerned. 

Greece gets Rafale deal on discounted terms. Turkey denied access to the Patriots which even Saudis were operating. Everyone else was getting Apache gunship helicopters but US Frontline ally against war on terror couldn't get even a single gunship helicopter in whole 20 years of US war on terror campaign. Turkey gets kicked out of F-35 program despite being an important partner in it and faces severe US sanctions upon purchasing Russian S-400 only after being rejected to acquire Patriot missile systems from US multiple times. There are Patriot batteries deployed in Turkey but the hist nation has no control over its operation whatsoever. Similarly India gets S-400 from Russia and apparently gets away with it unscathed from any US sanctions. There are countless examples of western discrepancies and hypocrisy towards it's allies or potential clients.

Yes west wanna sell their military equipment to their friendly nations but on their own biased terms. Israel can get F-16i variant and modify anything they wish to do in US provided weapons but PAF can only fit 1 Pakistani specific thing in the F-16s which usually is a PAF pilot. And by the way Israel gets US aid in billions of $$$ per anum unlike the peanuts Pakistan used to receive in the past.

So that shows that you probably are living completely in a parallel universe, where human civilization is immune to hypocritic behaviour syndrome.

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## rAli

Celebrate the J-10C, plz leave the F-16 out of this thread.

Is PAF planning to give J-10C a local name? To me the J-10C looks like a 'Gyrfalcon'. Google if you don't know what that is. 

Few questions @PanzerKiel @kursed 

Which PAF squadron is going to get it first?

Any idea about the cockpit layout? Three MFDs or single MFD?

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## kursed

rAli said:


> Celebrate the J-10C, plz leave the F-16 out of this thread.
> 
> Is PAF planning to give J-10C a local name? To me the J-10C looks like a 'Gyrfalcon'. Google if you don't know what that is.
> 
> Few questions @PanzerKiel @kursed
> 
> Which PAF squadron is going to get it first?
> 
> Any idea about the cockpit layout? Three MFDs or single MFD?


Fierce Dragon.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

kursed said:


> Fierce Dragon.


We're all going to call it Firebird.

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## Bleek

kursed said:


> Fierce Dragon.


Halal Dragon

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## The Terminator

The Eagle said:


> As far as I have been reading India; it is my personal assessment in nutshell that Indians don't even think or compare both the circumstances at all when it is about achieving their goals. I mean, when it comes to achieve their political goals and boast the electoral process for BJP Victory; empty skulls don't even know what is a conventional capability and what could mean by a military skirmish at all. However, their defence/Military personnel do know the outcome but since a decade they too have become the election campaigners under Modi regime. The religious hate, personal greed, the so much of caste superiority, the brahmin mindset and all the falsified glorification have made them like a perfect couple to burn this region.
> 
> For Pakistan, I think we will have to keep building the defence walls since we are living with a crazy neighbour that solely believes in his caste superiority being inspired by Nazi movement.


I don't know why but our military officials, specially the PAF ones still think that normal civilian person is still illiterate and naive to grasp the basic facts about the arms industry. He intentionally severely downplayed the capabilities of the Rafales despite being aware of that Public knows for the fact that Rafale is as much battle proven as any other modern platform and how french air force successfully used Rafales as their first offenders in recent campaigns even before other NATO allies started their cruise missile strikes, followed by stealth fighter/bomber sweeps to completely neutralize the adversary's capability to respond before getting their 4th 4.5Gen fighters into that airspace. Most of the ex PAF officers interviews tend to misguide people and get them to look in the wrong direction. May be PAF deliberately do this on purpose to keep them far away from public spotlight

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## siegecrossbow

rAli said:


> Celebrate the J-10C, plz leave the F-16 out of this thread.
> 
> Is PAF planning to give J-10C a local name? To me the J-10C looks like a 'Gyrfalcon'. Google if you don't know what that is.
> 
> Few questions @PanzerKiel @kursed
> 
> Which PAF squadron is going to get it first?
> 
> Any idea about the cockpit layout? Three MFDs or single MFD?



JF-17 is thunder, so probably something elemental. Too bad F-35 is already lightning. Maybe like hurricane or something.

To me it will always be halal dragon.

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## Luosifen

siegecrossbow said:


> JF-17 is thunder, so probably something elemental. Too bad F-35 is already lightning. Maybe like hurricane or something.
> 
> To me it will always be halal dragon.


Someone should design a such patch


----------



## Trailer23

*Q. Are there any limits on Engine Usage*?*
*Afterburner usage wise.

*Q. Self Protection Jammer (SPJ) - is it embedded or Pod?*

@Shotgunner51 @serenity @siegecrossbow


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## siegecrossbow

Trailer23 said:


> *Q. Are there any limits on Engine Usage*?*
> *Afterburner usage wise.
> 
> *Q. Self Protection Jammer (SPJ) - is it embedded or Pod?*
> 
> @Shotgunner51 @serenity @siegecrossbow



Not sure what do you mean on afterburner usage limit. As long as you don’t run out of fuel I don’t think it should be a concern.

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## GriffinsRule

tphuang said:


> AESA radars are not created equal. In F-16s case, it's airframe has already been pushed to the limit. The internal layout for Block 50 or F-16V were not originally designed for AESA radar. Due to space constraints, heat management and such, there is limit on what kind of AESA radar could be installed in there.


Wait what?! Yes all radars, AESA or otherwise, are not created equal. In fact if Given a choice to pick any, I would always pick US radars over others as they are not just the market leaders in tech, but have the most number of different AESA radars in service and for far longer than anyone else.
The part about F-16 also applies to J-0, or infact every fighter flying including F-15/F-18/Typhoon etc. Changes are normal and F-16 has had no issues with three different AESA radars tested in it's airframe. The UAE ones have been operational with one for over a decade so you point is mute.

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## syed_yusuf

In all this discussion we all missed one major point of j10cp capability and that is internal fuel capacity. I have yet to find a non 5th gen fighter with 4500kg of internal fuel. This is simply awesome capacity

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## The Terminator

Zarvan said:


> People who are in power talking deals are not dumb they see everything and if they still let's suppose discussing EF or F-16 Block 72 or something else then they consider it fully viable and not suicide. So just relax and ready to celebrate when they INSHALLAH brake the news.


Hazrat funds for purchasing a squadron of EFT would be enough to fund the whole project AZM R&D obviously in collaboration with the Chinese and(or) the Turks.

Turkey has all the necessary western tech and we can get western tech ToT and excel in indigenous solutions by just getting joint ventures with best of our allies Turks. Turks are in a learning curve where Chinese were a decade or so ago. Turkey would highly regard our cooperation and support now and would be willing to share all the tech and R&D with us so in near future Pakistan would be able to build our own radars, sophisticated guided missiles (AA/SAM), cutting edge military aviation products like drones, gunship helicopters, fighter jets etc. We would also benefit in terms of $$$ from the explosive growth of Turkish arms export market. It's truely a win-win situation and there isn't much time left to ponder as if Turkey achieved it's goal of establishing a robust defense industry capable of creating cutting edge big ticket defense items then they would soon loose the appetite and interest in any JV projects with Pakistan as they would completely be redundant to them.


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## Aesterix

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We're all going to call it Firebird.


Nope. Ayya yo yo.

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## The Terminator

PakFactor said:


> Down the road we need stealth planes F-35 types; we can't wait for India to induct and then we counter we need to stay multiple steps ahead and integrate these assets.


We are multiple steps ahead of India in future planning stages but due to obvious reasons don't wanna start arms race with India which won't be able to win as of now


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## Deino

JohnWick said:


> AH.... Your brain can't except the truth.... You know what a latest variant of a fighter jet with serving a fleet of 1000 in PLAAF is certainly better than rafale
> Just remember two simple things
> 1 It is the "C" variant
> With better AESA radar than rafale
> And better missile package like PL-15
> 2 Better thrust to weight ratio
> Engine thrust is also same
> 75KN+75KN=150KN for rafale
> 145KN for J-10C but
> Remember J-10C is one Ton(80kg) less in weight than rafale
> I can say some SPECTRA EW suit capability is better in rafale but still It can be upgraded in J-10C with time So it doesn't matter and don't try that retard man argument !




Why do you think the B-variant provides 145 kN? This is the number stated for the J-20‘s C variant only.


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## StormBreaker

rAli said:


> Celebrate the J-10C, plz leave the F-16 out of this thread.
> 
> Is PAF planning to give J-10C a local name? To me the J-10C looks like a 'Gyrfalcon'. Google if you don't know what that is.
> 
> Few questions @PanzerKiel @kursed
> 
> Which PAF squadron is going to get it first?
> 
> Any idea about the cockpit layout? Three MFDs or single MFD?


Gyrfalcon was attributed to J-31

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## Bleek

Deltadart said:


> How about JF-10C, or JF-10CP?


Nah, it's not a joint fighter, that's for joint venture projects


StormBreaker said:


> Gyrfalcon was attributed to J-31


It actually looks like one too tbh, J-10 looks like the Chinese dragon


----------



## StormBreaker

Bleek said:


> Nah, it's not a joint fighter, that's for joint venture projects
> 
> It actually looks like one too tbh, J-10 looks like the Chinese dragon


I was thinking about “OmniKiller”, Omni has always been attributed to Rafale

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## Smoke

Just came across these beauty posts of the J-10C that PAF has acquired! See below:

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## siegecrossbow

Deltadart said:


> How about JF-10C, or JF-10CP?



JF stands for joint fighter. J-10C is not a joint project.

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## MultaniGuy

siegecrossbow said:


> JF stands for joint fighter. J-10C is not a joint project.


You are correct.

J-10C is a 100% Chinese project.

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## The Eagle

Aesterix said:


> View attachment 816368
> 
> 
> Well the Helmet , does not look "Normal" . Original picture from @Deino.



What if I say that, it's J-20 style HMDS/CS?

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## The Eagle

Smoke said:


> Just came across these beauty posts of the J-10C that PAF has acquired! See below:
> 
> View attachment 816401
> 
> View attachment 816402
> 
> View attachment 816403
> 
> View attachment 816404
> 
> View attachment 816406



Can we start reading the forum and see if subject is already posted. It will save us a lot of clicks merely to check on same subject being discussed in 2 different threads and information or updates are scattered all over the place but useless. Let's be helpful please.

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## GriffinsRule

syed_yusuf said:


> In all this discussion we all missed one major point of j10cp capability and that is internal fuel capacity. I have yet to find a non 5th gen fighter with 4500kg of internal fuel. This is simply awesome capacity


I think you forgot to qualify that statement to single engines aircraft only. J-10 fuel capacity is primarily due to the wing design, though the non-delta wing F-18C has over 4,900kg of internal fuel capacity as well.

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## Smoke

The Eagle said:


> Can we start reading the forum and see if subject is already posted. It will save us a lot of clicks merely to check on same subject being discussed in 2 different threads and information or updates are scattered all over the place but useless. Let's be helpful please.



My deepest apologies, Master Eagle.

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## Zarvan

The Terminator said:


> Hazrat funds for purchasing a squadron of EFT would be enough to fund the whole project AZM R&D obviously in collaboration with the Chinese and(or) the Turks.
> 
> Turkey has all the necessary western tech and we can get western tech ToT and excel in indigenous solutions by just getting joint ventures with best of our allies Turks. Turks are in a learning curve where Chinese were a decade or so ago. Turkey would highly regard our cooperation and support now and would be willing to share all the tech and R&D with us so in near future Pakistan would be able to build our own radars, sophisticated guided missiles (AA/SAM), cutting edge military aviation products like drones, gunship helicopters, fighter jets etc. We would also benefit in terms of $$$ from the explosive growth of Turkish arms export market. It's truely a win-win situation and there isn't much time left to ponder as if Turkey achieved it's goal of establishing a robust defense industry capable of creating cutting edge big ticket defense items then they would soon loose the appetite and interest in any JV projects with Pakistan as they would completely be redundant to them.


Azm will take 10 to 15 years at minimum and much more to mature. Where as let say EF Trench 4 or F-16 BLOCK 72 are mature proven platforms. As for funding those in charge know about it. They know about the money they have and the deal they can get so just relax and wait how things play out. INSHALLAH you would be hearing lot of news on lot of weapons in near future.

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## Aesterix

The Eagle said:


> What if I say that, it's J-20 style HMDS/CS?


If there's a cueing system is there in the helmet, that will massively improve the HOBS performance, along with the 5th generation PL-10E, .
In a WVR scenario, this is a lethal combination.....if its there.

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## Dreamer.

Zarvan said:


> Azm will take 10 to 15 years at minimum and much more to mature. Where as let say EF Trench 4 or F-16 BLOCK 72 are mature proven platforms. As for funding those in charge know about it. They know about the money they have and the deal they can get so just relax and wait how things play out. INSHALLAH you would be hearing lot of news on lot of weapons in near future.


Sorry but no western fighter for the time being. Just face the facts.

If you think Tipu7 was referring to any western fighter than you've obviously missed the most obvious hints.


----------



## Zarvan

The Terminator said:


> Nope wrong answer by a long shot. Gulf countries have all the money in the world to even purchase F-22 raptor s but still struggle to source 4.5 gen fighters like what Saudis face issues regarding Typhoons acquisition. And now these countries facing blackmailing regarding acquisition of the F-35s. They can even fund whoke F-35 assembly lines in their own countries as far as funds are concerned.
> 
> Greece gets Rafale deal on discounted terms. Turkey denied access to the Patriots which even Saudis were operating. Everyone else was getting Apache gunship helicopters but US Frontline ally against war on terror couldn't get even a single gunship helicopter in whole 20 years of US war on terror campaign. Turkey gets kicked out of F-35 program despite being an important partner in it and faces severe US sanctions upon purchasing Russian S-400 only after being rejected to acquire Patriot missile systems from US multiple times. There are Patriot batteries deployed in Turkey but the hist nation has no control over its operation whatsoever. Similarly India gets S-400 from Russia and apparently gets away with it unscathed from any US sanctions. There are countless examples of western discrepancies and hypocrisy towards it's allies or potential clients.
> 
> Yes west wanna sell their military equipment to their friendly nations but on their own biased terms. Israel can get F-16i variant and modify anything they wish to do in US provided weapons but PAF can only fit 1 Pakistani specific thing in the F-16s which usually is a PAF pilot. And by the way Israel gets US aid in billions of $$$ per anum unlike the peanuts Pakistan used to receive in the past.
> 
> So that shows that you probably are living completely in a parallel universe, where human civilization is immune to hypocritic behaviour syndrome.


Dude even right now I can give you details of weapons which are on offer by Europe but it's us who never went for them. Some we are in talks for. So just relax and I am talking about weapons from big European powers not smaller countries. Smaller ones were never an issue. Also with USA things will settle down soon and things will come from there also.

J-10 C if we go for more then 100 will for sure play dual role of F-16 and Mirages for us. It is great at both Air to Air battles as well as Air to Ground strikes.

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## tphuang

GriffinsRule said:


> Wait what?! Yes all radars, AESA or otherwise, are not created equal. In fact if Given a choice to pick any, I would always pick US radars over others as they are not just the market leaders in tech, but have the most number of different AESA radars in service and for far longer than anyone else.
> The part about F-16 also applies to J-0, or infact every fighter flying including F-15/F-18/Typhoon etc. Changes are normal and F-16 has had no issues with three different AESA radars tested in it's airframe. The UAE ones have been operational with one for over a decade so you point is mute.



Would you pick a US radar from the 2000s over a Chinese radar from last year? Would you pick a US one that has 900 T/R modules with power limitations over a Chinese one with 1200 T/R modules with much greater power output?

The reality is that internal layout of an aircraft cannot be changed once the design is frozen. Only when there are major upgrades, will you see the internal layout of a an aircraft changed. The only such major upgrade for J-10 was from J-10A to J-10B. The layout was redone to allow for a more advanced avionics architecture to be put in place. The layout was designed entirely with AESA radar in mind. That's not the case with F-16s. Do you think the block 50/52 have a different internal layout than block 30/32? Do you think they went through another major internal layout change when they came up with block 60 or do you think they just tried to stuff whatever is possible they can given the space and power limitations? Do you think they went through the process of a major redesign of layout for an export project?

Take a look at F-22. They still have not been able to put IRST on there despite its importance to USAF. Why do you think that is? There is just no space available for it. J-10B/C was designed from day 1 to accommodate largest possible AESA radar, IRST and all that extra feature they added to it. It took several years of testing to verify all the changes.

And for your initial question, China has probably 500 fighter jet in operation with AESA radar. Maybe not as many as USAF, but not a slouch. Far more than any other Air Force. It was also one of the first country to put AESA radar on AWACS and naval ships. There are many areas China is still far behind Western countries. AESA radar technology and electronics in general is one where they are pretty close to the top.

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## luciferdd

tphuang said:


> Would you pick a US radar from the 2000s over a Chinese radar from last year? Would you pick a US one that has 900 T/R modules with power limitations over a Chinese one with 1200 T/R modules with much greater power output?
> 
> The reality is that internal layout of an aircraft cannot be changed once the design is frozen. Only when there are major upgrades, will you see the internal layout of a an aircraft changed. The only such major upgrade for J-10 was from J-10A to J-10B. The layout was redone to allow for a more advanced avionics architecture to be put in place. The layout was designed entirely with AESA radar in mind. That's not the case with F-16s. Do you think the block 50/52 have a different internal layout than block 30/32? Do you think they went through another major internal layout change when they came up with block 60 or do you think they just tried to stuff whatever is possible they can given the space and power limitations? Do you think they went through the process of a major redesign of layout for an export project?
> 
> Take a look at F-22. They still have not been able to put IRST on there despite its importance to USAF. Why do you think that is? There is just no space available for it. J-10B/C was designed from day 1 to accommodate largest possible AESA radar, IRST and all that extra feature they added to it. It took several years of testing to verify all the changes.
> 
> And for your initial question, China has probably 500 fighter jet in operation with AESA radar. Maybe not as many as USAF, but not a slouch. Far more than any other Air Force. It was also one of the first country to put AESA radar on AWACS and naval ships. There are many areas China is still far behind Western countries. AESA radar technology and electronics in general is one where they are pretty close to the top.


IMO,the number of j-10C+J16+J20+some J-11BD is more than 700,and it will add 100+ per year.

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## Aesterix

SQ8 said:


> There are similar ones on the tail as well so that’s where the guess came from


Well yes, the J-20 has similar lights.
Looks like J-19CP has similar lights. But why?
Screenshot of J-20 with بتیاں۔












Edit: Actually these strip lights seem to be standard feature in J-10C . I could find only one picture of the lights being used, and it's faint.






But the question remains, what benefits these light strips , front and back, bring?


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## Aesterix

Just found out the Chinese duped us.
They installed 3x light stripes on their J-10C but only two stripes on PAF version. 
Must ask for a partial refund, due to missing one بتی

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## WinterFangs

Aesterix said:


> Well yes, the J-20 has similar lights.
> Looks like J-19CP has similar lights. But why?
> Screenshot of J-20 with بتیاں۔
> View attachment 816409
> 
> 
> View attachment 816410
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Actually these strip lights seem to be standard feature in J-10C . I could find only one picture of the lights being used, and it's faint.
> View attachment 816413
> 
> 
> 
> But the question remains, what benefits these light strips , front and back, bring?


They are formation lights, ‘they make it easier to see and discern altitude and separation distance between the airborne craft’. used for night missions and also to assist aircrafts to fly in formation during low visibility. 
i haven’t seen many, but ive seen some F-35s use them and they look sexy.

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## MastanKhan

Blueskiez 2001 said:


> So are you implying that Pakistan made a deal for j-10 in 2014??



Hi,

I am not implyimng anything---. I just stated what I knew---and it should be somewhere on this forum as well in the older posts.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Hearing rumors that the J10 count will be going up , as it was really planned to be inducted in 2014 so delay of almost 8 years from original plans


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## MastanKhan

Beast said:


> There are different understanding to the contract of 200 J11A/Su-27sk. Chinese thought they bought both 200 frame kits plus rights for continue production of Su-27 related fighter. In fact, we Chinese told Russian the intention right from start and they never say say a thing. They only complain when the J-11b, full domestic version of Su-27sk produced. It is then the conflict about the right started.



Hi,

The russians did not realize how capable chinese engineers were. They just miscalculated and by the time they realized their folly---china had gone too far ahead to be stopped.



The Terminator said:


> Now we would latest AESA equipped JF-17B3 and J-10C, it would be beneficial for US and it's allies to sell surplus/retired fighters to Pakistan to *earn some quick bucks* or to retain some leverage upon Pakistani decision makers in the longer run. Nothing force multiplier is going to be coming from US for Pakistan. They don't even have the grace to release Pakistani cobras which our Army needs badly.



Hi,

I do not know from where you have gotten the idea of " QUICK BUCKS"---.

Someone needs to open your eyes and tell you that the west does not give a diddly sh-it about making bucks and arming pakistan.

So---get this word---:"making bucks" out of your vocabulary.



MultaniGuy said:


> You are correct.
> 
> J-10C is a 100% Chinese project.



Hi,

No sir it is not---. There are pakistani genes in it that we would rather not acknowledge.

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## Vapnope



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## MastanKhan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Hearing rumors that the J10 count will be going up , as it was really planned to be inducted in 2014 so delay of almost 8 years from original plans



Hi,

Not inducted in 2014---but a confirmation that the Paf was headed that way and a deal was agreed with the chinese to the fact where the aircraft design was headed and what would pakistans need be in the coming years with what kind of package.

I would recommend listening to what the Retd Air Marshall stated about the shortcomings of the aircraft J-10.

In the longer run what that meant was that if you do this this and this modification to the aircraft---you will end up with a world class fighter aircraft that you could be proud of and which would fit our needs as well.

Chinese understand & appreciate pakistan's combat experience very well---. They have a great ability to listen and make the needed changes and the results are in front of us. It is a team thing.

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## siegecrossbow

Bleek said:


> Trust me he's Greek, you should see what he's posted about Indians before too lmao



The fact that even @Foinikas is being mistaken for Indian shows that their strategy of false flagging is very successful.

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## 帅的一匹

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Not inducted in 2014---but a confirmation that the Paf was headed that way and a deal was agreed with the chinese to the fact where the aircraft design was headed and what would pakistans need be in the coming years with what kind of package.
> 
> I would recommend listening to what the Retd Air Marshall stated about the shortcomings of the aircraft J-10.
> 
> In the longer run what that meant was that if you do this this and this modification to the aircraft---you will end up with a world class fighter aircraft that you could be proud of and which would fit our needs as well.
> 
> Chinese understand & appreciate pakistan's combat experience very well---. They have a great ability to listen and make the needed changes and the results are in front of us. It is a team thing.


I think they should award you as PDF think tank right now. Without PAF’s advice and vision, J10 c won’t be as that great as it is now. Hope J10 will keep evolving and PAF pilots will push it to limit. No one understands J10 more than PAF does.

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## NA71

J-10C inspired by Pakistani famous road runner W-11...see all formation lights, data link antenna ground seekers are also hanging on front side.

(Mod please forgive me ...the thread is now too dry...just adding some taste)

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## siegecrossbow

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Not inducted in 2014---but a confirmation that the Paf was headed that way and a deal was agreed with the chinese to the fact where the aircraft design was headed and what would pakistans need be in the coming years with what kind of package.
> 
> I would recommend listening to what the Retd Air Marshall stated about the shortcomings of the aircraft J-10.
> 
> *In the longer run what that meant was that if you do this this and this modification to the aircraft---you will end up with a world class fighter aircraft that you could be proud of and which would fit our needs as well.*
> 
> Chinese understand & appreciate pakistan's combat experience very well---. They have a great ability to listen and make the needed changes and the results are in front of us. It is a team thing.



Ironically that seems to be Marcel Dassault’s design philosophy.

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## 帅的一匹

PAF inducting J10 is my biggest desire in the last 10 years, its finally satisfied.

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## MastanKhan

帅的一匹 said:


> I think they should award you as PDF think tank right now. Without PAF’s advice and vision, J10 c won’t be as that great as it is now. Hope J10 will keep evolving and PAF pilots will push it to limit. No one understands J10 more than PAF does.



Hi,

I am one of the senior most members on this forum.

I used to be on the think Tank but I resigned my commission many years ago due to difference of opinion with those who stated that pakistan did not have funds and will get nothing from china ever and J10 does not bring anything to the table---.

There will be no Type 054's---pakistan is broke---there will be no chinese submarines---and look now---none of them has any shame to come forward and apologize--*-hey @araz---how about an apology.

& mods---don't delete the post.*

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## 帅的一匹

siegecrossbow said:


> The fact that even @Foinikas is being mistaken for Indian shows that their strategy of false flagging is very successful.


No, he is not Indian.

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## siegecrossbow

帅的一匹 said:


> No, he is not Indian.



That’s why I said he is being “mistaken for Indian”, which is very baffling since he says very unIndian things.

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## tphuang

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Not inducted in 2014---but a confirmation that the Paf was headed that way and a deal was agreed with the chinese to the fact where the aircraft design was headed and what would pakistans need be in the coming years with what kind of package.
> 
> I would recommend listening to what the Retd Air Marshall stated about the shortcomings of the aircraft J-10.
> 
> In the longer run what that meant was that if you do this this and this modification to the aircraft---you will end up with a world class fighter aircraft that you could be proud of and which would fit our needs as well.
> 
> Chinese understand & appreciate pakistan's combat experience very well---. They have a great ability to listen and make the needed changes and the results are in front of us. It is a team thing.



I'm sure they did agree to something, but the reality is that they couldn't export this thing until J-10C was using WS-10 series engine. Right now is basically the earliest they could export it to PAF. WS-10 production is finally solid in China. PLAAF itself has moved on to J-20 procurement for the most part. 

As for your other point, 2014 would've been too late to make any changes to J-10C. The design would've been frozen by then. Why is J-10C such an important aircraft for China? The reason is because they were testing a whole new avionics architecture that would eventually be adapted onto J-20. While China would take PAF input. I doubt they would modify it for the purpose of making it fit Pakistani needs.

Given where things are heading, I think it's possible for China to export J-20 to Pakistan in the next 10 years. 5 years ago, I didn't think they'd export it to anyone. But keep in mind that if China does export something like J-20 to Pakistan, Pakistan would have to be 100% aligned with China. None of this we try to be on good terms with US, so that we can get F-16V.

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## jaybird

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am one of the senior most members on this forum.
> 
> I used to be on the think Tank but I resigned my commission many years ago due to difference of opinion with those who stated that pakistan did not have funds and will get nothing from china ever and J10 does not bring anything to the table---.
> 
> There will be no Type 054's---pakistan is broke---there will be no chinese submarines---and look now---none of them has any shame to come forward and apologize--*-hey @araz---how about an apology.
> 
> & mods---don't delete the post.*


Hey Mastankhan, you used to be one of my favorite PDF member here. But you got to let go of holding grudges with other members here. You posts became bitter and no longer the same fun and intelligent Mastankhan we used to see.

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## ziaulislam

Taimoor Khan said:


> Lets put things in perspective.
> 
> Rafale, made by France.
> 
> J10 , made by China. The world factory, industrial juggernaut, semi conductor power house, army of top engineers and scientists, the only nation on the planet operating its own space station as we speak.
> 
> Not being biased or anything, but if I have to bet, I know where my money would be.


But in 1970s -1990s french fighters like mirage2000 were wotld class fighters..

Well china waspoorer then pakistan in 1980s. So that is not a way to compare things


ozranger said:


> Laughable!
> 
> A company which cannot make GaN based T/R modules and corresponding AESA radars is a shit company in today's technological market as it is a perfect indication that their R&D runs under average in the market. Hence it is very safe to say their EW suites are also far behind in capability as well.
> 
> As for China, J-20 and J-16 are reportedly equipped AESA radars with more than 2000 T/R modules each. Can anyone nominate a French made fighter jet which can house such big AESA radars in sizeable nose with proper cooling? Or any French made EW jet can be comparable to J-16D?
> 
> The Frenches don't have any platforms comparable to the Chinese. They don't have substantially advanced technologies and lack required R&D capability.
> 
> Visually obvious.


Software and hardware are two different things
Yes GaN has higher effiency and TR modules mean power but that doesnt translate it better software alog

Havong said that R&D of chinese is several times more and i would wxpect it to equal of not better

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## Thorough Pro

weapon acquisition rumors work like viagra for you and then one is never enough you got to have one from the west. At one time you gave us Eurofighters, the SU35, them Mig35. Relax, cool down, hang a wet towel on it. If something is coming let it come, we will all see it, no point in jumping up and down like a monkey, it won't speed up anything.




Zarvan said:


> One is from Europe then off course we have USA. Then one country on our really north is also there. Lot of things are in play just wait and watch. Lot of systems are in and more will come. Like I said INSHALLAH in next one decade or two you won't have time to relax you would be hearing about one weapon system after another for all three forces.

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## Riz

tphuang said:


> I'm sure they did agree to something, but the reality is that they couldn't export this thing until J-10C was using WS-10 series engine. Right now is basically the earliest they could export it to PAF. WS-10 production is finally solid in China. PLAAF itself has moved on to J-20 procurement for the most part.
> 
> As for your other point, 2014 would've been too late to make any changes to J-10C. The design would've been frozen by then. Why is J-10C such an important aircraft for China? The reason is because they were testing a whole new avionics architecture that would eventually be adapted onto J-20. While China would take PAF input. I doubt they would modify it for the purpose of making it fit Pakistani needs.
> 
> Given where things are heading, I think it's possible for China to export J-20 to Pakistan in the next 10 years. 5 years ago, I didn't think they'd export it to anyone. But keep in mind that if China does export something like J-20 to Pakistan, Pakistan would have to be 100% aligned with China. None of this we try to be on good terms with US, so that we can get F-16V.


The day US offers india F-35s , China will ok J-20 sale to Pakistan, China is not offering J-20 to Pakistan because this deal will start unnecessary arm race in south asia which china dont want right now

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## syed_yusuf

GriffinsRule said:


> I think you forgot to qualify that statement to single engines aircraft only. J-10 fuel capacity is primarily due to the wing design, though the non-delta wing F-18C has over 4,900kg of internal fuel capacity as well.


Yes u are right I mean to say for a single engine fighter 

I think no other fighter except su35 or j16 may have more fuel per engine than j10

This is one area where j10cp excel hands down


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## lcloo

Smoke said:


> Just came across these beauty posts of the J-10C that PAF has acquired! See below:
> 
> View attachment 816401
> 
> View attachment 816402
> 
> View attachment 816403
> 
> View attachment 816404
> 
> View attachment 816406


Rupprecht is Deino himself.

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> weapon acquisition rumors work like viagra for you and then one is never enough you got to have one from the west. At one time you gave us Eurofighters, the SU35, them Mig35. Relax, cool down, hang a wet towel on it. If something is coming let it come, we will all see it, no point in jumping up and down like a monkey, it won't speed up anything.


You can ask any mod here. Twice we tried to reach a deal with Russia on SU 35 and Russia not agreeing to put AESA broke the deal. I am relaxed it's you who is denial not me. Deals are taking place negotiations happening. Lot of stuff is coming INSHALLAH

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## Beast

Riz said:


> The day US offers india F-35s , China will ok J-20 sale to Pakistan, China is not offering J-20 to Pakistan because this deal will start unnecessary arm race in south asia which china dont want right now


US do not trust the Indians. F-35 sales will never materialized. Maybe when USAF 6th gen fighter enter service and they will sell outdated products to Indians.


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## ozranger

ziaulislam said:


> But in 1970s -1990s french fighters like mirage2000 were wotld class fighters..
> 
> Well china waspoorer then pakistan in 1980s. So that is not a way to compare things
> 
> Software and hardware are two different things
> Yes GaN has higher effiency and TR modules mean power but that doesnt translate it better software alog
> 
> Havong said that R&D of chinese is several times more and i would wxpect it to equal of not better



Hahaha without advanced hardware you can't even develop advanced software. A good example is on electronic warfare, that AESA radar can offload a lot of EW features from externally carried pods if it is having substantially big amount of T/R modules with substantially strong power output. This kind of EW features are implemented *in software* as you won't upgrade the AESA antenna very often. I don't believe a radar with 838 T/R modules can have many enough spare T/R modules performing EW activities in run time. So the French team's capability and their achievement cannot be overestimated as they are having much less exposure to more powerful hardware.

It is obviously in a BVR scenario Rafale detects enemy aircraft in significantly shorter distance and is more vulnerable to enemies EW counter measures.

I have hard numbers from open sources to prove my claim and you don't have any to prove yours. End of discussion.

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## lcloo

Aesterix said:


> Well yes, the J-20 has similar lights.
> Looks like J-19CP has similar lights. But why?
> Screenshot of J-20 with بتیاں۔
> View attachment 816409
> 
> 
> View attachment 816410
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Actually these strip lights seem to be standard feature in J-10C . I could find only one picture of the lights being used, and it's faint.
> View attachment 816413
> 
> 
> 
> But the question remains, what benefits these light strips , front and back, bring?


Those are formation light, used at night time for formation flights where two to four jets are flying close to each other in the dark.

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## The Terminator

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The russians did not realize how capable chinese engineers were. They just miscalculated and by the time they realized their folly---china had gone too far ahead to be stopped.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I do not know from where you have gotten the idea of " QUICK BUCKS"---.
> 
> Someone needs to open your eyes and tell you that the west does not give a diddly sh-it about making bucks and arming pakistan.
> 
> So---get this word---:"making bucks" out of your vocabulary.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> No sir it is not---. There are pakistani genes in it that we would rather not acknowledge.


Oh the bu!t hurts. Quite contrary to that you should open your eyes and remove those western lenses you are wearing.

Whole western human rights and war against terrorism rant has proven to be a hoax. They force their own democracies and values upon economically week countries. Decimate those who try to stand on their own against the petrodollar hegemony but unfortunately had a lot week defense forces. Israel, the most illegitimate state on this Earth is their most favorite bastard kid. Your presidents and PMs bend over in front of oil rich Arabs just to please them, because they have been the lifeline of your economic hegemony. West forgets to talk about human rights when it comes to ever expanding illegal state of Israel or the brute totalitarian Arab regimes.

Lol the west especially the western European breed of people and all their descendants are the most morally corrupt, hypocrite and greedy people this planet has ever seen. That's why they plundered the whole world and fought one another in the colonial era and both the world wars were fought primarily by the Europeans. Afghanistan or Iraq had nothing to do with it. The are savagely killing each other and the world around them for centuries. Have committed worst genocides of the history. Betrayal/Deception is embedded into their DNA. Who invented the crusade wars and what really did those crusades achieved? At least as far as Muslim history is concerned, those people are constantly fighting Muslims for 1400 years in the quest of gaining more power and 🤑💰 money baby.

Don't try to lecture us about the west.

In short for Pakistan, they were reluctant to give us anything, then came the JF-17 thunder with SD-10 missiles. Only after that we got BVR capable F-16s. We Couldn't get a breakthrough in gunship helicopters so that matter lingers on for decades. Same pattern could be followed in the future. Is it an attitude of a friend/ally? Absolutely Not. Is this purely a business? Yes. The business would continue as usual and Pakistan wouldn't get any capability boosting platforms from the west especially the US, but business as usual why not! That's the opportunity to make quick bucks and retain somewhat leverage upon Pakistani Govt.

F-16 used to be our Frontline fighter, darling of the Pakistan, but not anymore. With the induction of JF-17 B3 and J-10C, the F-16 is there to just complement them and fill the numbers. PAF has quite cleverly changed the tip of their spear.

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## Chak Bamu

ARMalik said:


> You fellows are in for a big surprise !


Give it up already, Do you think this place is for your inanities? Mods know better & if they are not saying anything, then please stay quiet. By insisting on a mere personal hunch, you are making a fool of yourself. Stop derailing the thread.

Guys any news on dragons' arrival? I want to see them land with PAF markings & Pakistan's flag on rudder.

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## The Terminator

jaybird said:


> Hey Mastankhan, you used to be one of my favorite PDF member here. But you got to let go of holding grudges with other members here. You posts became bitter and no longer the same fun and intelligent Mastankhan we used to see.


He is getting older and stiff 😜

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## MastanKhan

The Terminator said:


> Oh the bu!t hurts. Quite contrary to that you should open your eyes and remove those western lenses you are wearing.
> 
> Whole western human rights and war against terrorism rant has proven to be a hoax. They force their own democracies and values upon economically week countries. Decimate those who try to stand on their own against the petrodollar hegemony but unfortunately had a lot week defense forces. Israel, the most illegitimate state on this Earth is their most favorite bastard kid. Your presidents and PMs bend over in front of oil rich Arabs just to please them, because they have been the lifeline of your economic hegemony. West forgets to talk about human rights when it comes to ever expanding illegal state of Israel or the brute totalitarian Arab regimes.
> 
> Lol the west especially the western European breed of people and all their descendants are the most morally corrupt, hypocrite and greedy people this planet has ever seen. That's why they plundered the whole world and fought one another in the colonial era and both the world wars were fought primarily by the Europeans. Afghanistan or Iraq had nothing to do with it. The are savagely killing each other and the world around them for centuries. Have committed worst genocides of the history. Betrayal/Deception is embedded into their DNA. Who invented the crusade wars and what really did those crusades achieved? At least as far as Muslim history is concerned, those people are constantly fighting Muslims for 1400 years in the quest of gaining more power and 🤑💰 money baby.
> 
> Don't try to lecture us about the west.
> 
> In short for Pakistan, they were reluctant to give us anything, then came the JF-17 thunder with SD-10 missiles. Only after that we got BVR capable F-16s. We Couldn't get a breakthrough in gunship helicopters so that matter lingers on for decades. Same pattern could be followed in the future. Is it an attitude of a friend/ally? No. Is this purely a business? Yes. The business would continue as usual and Pakistan wouldn't get any capability boosting platforms from the west especially the US, but business as usual why not! That's the opportunity to make quick bucks and retain somewhat leverage upon Pakistani Govt.
> 
> F-16 used to be our Frontline fighter, darling of the Pakistan, but not anymore. With the induction of JF-17 BE and J-10C, the F-16 is there to just complement them and fill the numbers. PAF has quite cleverly changed the tip of their spear.



Hi,

You did not learn how to talk to the americans---.

The Israelis did.

My old school american friends hated the jews and israel with a vengeance.

The JF17 and the J10 have still to be battle proven---. That is the irnoy of the weapons world that the pakistani don't know much about.


Your post is wayward---.

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## Thorough Pro

Window Shopping =/= shopping, you don't go around telling people I saw a million things in the shop windows, you only tell about the pair of sox you buy. Negotiations=/= Deals.




Zarvan said:


> You can ask any mod here. Twice we tried to reach a deal with Russia on SU 35 and Russia not agreeing to put AESA broke the deal. I am relaxed it's you who is denial not me. Deals are taking place negotiations happening. Lot of stuff is coming INSHALLAH

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## MastanKhan

jaybird said:


> Hey Mastankhan, you used to be one of my favorite PDF member here. But you got to let go of holding grudges with other members here. You posts became bitter and no longer the same fun and intelligent Mastankhan we used to see.



Hi,

I did for awhile but then I heard Tom Brady interviews and what kept him going---that fire---there was a reason---he damned everyone of those 6 quarterbacks that went ahead of him---.

If you want to make the change---then condemn the incompetent and help them to be removed from their perch---.

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## lcloo

Flight formation lights are used to indentify position of aircraft in relation to each other. Using different light stripes the pilots can know whether they are in front, at the back or at the side of their buddies in the dark sky.

Formation lights can only be spotted when the aircraft are close to each other, they cannot be spotted from the ground. The green and red navigation lights at the top of the tail fin would be switched off during combat missions.

PAF and PLAAF J10C have different strip patterns so that pilots can identify the dark flying object close to them is Chinese jet or PAF jet.

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## The Terminator

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You did not learn how to talk to the americans---.
> 
> The Israelis did.
> 
> My old scholl american friends hated the jews and israel with a vengeance.
> 
> The JF17 and the J10 have still to be battle proven---. That is the irnoy of the weapons world that the pakistani don't know much about.
> 
> 
> Your post is wayward---.


JF-17, Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, latest variants of F-16, F-15,F/A-18, F-22, B-2 have one thing in common. They all got their battle tested/proven certification be bombing out the Talibans. So there isn't any difference in battle proven western or our own system.

At least PAF has the badge of fighting and defeating a Number 3 or 4 air force in the global ranking during a skirmish while both sides were equipped with latest Radars, SAMs, Fighter jets, AEW &C assets and whole command & control mechanism was still intact during the conflict.

Where US/NATO fought top 10 force in the world??? Any recent events! If any then enlighten me plz.

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## MastanKhan

tphuang said:


> I'm sure they did agree to something, but the reality is that they couldn't export this thing until J-10C was using WS-10 series engine. Right now is basically the earliest they could export it to PAF. WS-10 production is finally solid in China. PLAAF itself has moved on to J-20 procurement for the most part.
> 
> As for your other point, 2014 would've been too late to make any changes to J-10C. The design would've been frozen by then. Why is J-10C such an important aircraft for China? The reason is because they were testing a whole new avionics architecture that would eventually be adapted onto J-20. While China would take PAF input. I doubt they would modify it for the purpose of making it fit Pakistani needs.
> 
> Given where things are heading, I think it's possible for China to export J-20 to Pakistan in the next 10 years. 5 years ago, I didn't think they'd export it to anyone. But keep in mind that if China does export something like J-20 to Pakistan, Pakistan would have to be 100% aligned with China. None of this we try to be on good terms with US, so that we can get F-16V.



Hi,

I am sorry my post came out that way.

The recommendations were made during Musharraf's time---when the General asked the Paf to go for the J10's and he had agreed with the chinese for 36 aircraft for the PAF. Paf team looked at the aircraft and requested for some 40 + changes to be made to the aircraft---and the Retd Air Marshall Latif was leading that team.

*But the PAF was not interested in buying that aircraft at that time---. They were just forced into that position by Gen Musharraf--*-.

Later on the decision to purchase was around 2014 or so and off course---you are correct---WS10 was the key and certain other technologies needed to mature---because PAF did not want to go back and do the upgrades at a later date---.

Again I say---it is a major weapons purchase---a key component of pakistan's air defense---a totally different product that the PAF is used to---.

I would add that the J10 has been assessed and tested by the PAF like no other aircraft before---. It would still be put thru the ringer further more.

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## Talon

People enjoying J-10's induction..

Meanwhile :

*Mastan Khan* : Sb maafi mango mere se

*Zarvan* literally after every 2 pages : Just wait and watch

P.s : Just a friendly post , no hate intended

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## MastanKhan

Hodor said:


> People enjoying J-10's induction..
> 
> Meanwhile :
> 
> *Mastan Khan* : Sb maafi mango mere se
> 
> *Zarvan* literally after every 2 pages : Just wait and watch




Hi,

If I had stated vehemently that pakistan does not have the money and will not get any weapons from china and J10 does not bring anything new to the table--

And if things changed---I would apologize---now wouldn't you

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## Goritoes

SQ8 said:


> Well
> The problem is if it never happens was it true or not?


Well despite our differences I do trust you in defense related news and rumors, whether its true or not, rumor or not i still agree with you on how easy and quick/effective F-16 would be in PAF, and their integration. Thinking from another prospect, as now J-10's are here maybe PAF might try their luck again with the logic that F-16's might not come with AESA anyway, so Pakistan can argue for *"* Old *"* and *"* Outdated *"* block 52's from US, with of course CSF funds.



Trailer23 said:


> We have 75.


sorry my bad.


----------



## Luosifen

On a lighter note, imagine the shock on people's faces and rumours that would appear if PLAAF J-20s made a cameo flyby during the parade after the J-10s made their entrance

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## Goritoes

SQ8 said:


> Its the same with anything - I told no one and landed in Pakistan and by the time I went back from the visit half of the 300+ people extended family knew even after we asked to tell no one.


Sacha Pakistani hone ke saboot aur Jaraseem


----------



## HRK

siegecrossbow said:


> Not sure what do you mean on afterburner usage limit. As long as you don’t run out of fuel I don’t think it should be a concern.


with every jet engine there is limit of number of use of afterburner after which Jet engine is required necessary checks and service ....

this thing contribute in the availability and / or non-availability of Fighter jet

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## HRK

Aesterix said:


> Just found out the Chinese duped us.
> They installed 3x light stripes on their J-10C but only two stripes on PAF version.
> Must ask for a partial refund, due to missing one بتی
> 
> View attachment 816415


Not only this the eagle logo is also missing, we must send some female officer from PAF for haggling on price .... we demand 10% more discount or extra birds .....

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## The Terminator

One aspect the J-10 brings to the table that no other western/US fighter could bring is the flexibility of modification, integration and upgradation as per PAF wishes. We can truly play with the dragons and make our own unique dragon beast by equipping it with various weapon systems and indigenous armaments.

There is F-16i but could never be a F-16P. As once a senior Chinese official said Pakistan is like the Israel of China. So we have certain liberties with the Chinese equipment which can't even imagine of getting in any western platform. That's why J-10 was inevitable for Pakistan from the beginning regardless of F-16s availability. JF-17 couldn't reach the potential of a medium fighter die to it's size restrictions but we can fulfill everything we missed to achieve on the thunders, obviously with complete backing of the Chinese

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## Ghessan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Not inducted in 2014---but a confirmation that the Paf was headed that way and a deal was agreed with the chinese to the fact where the aircraft design was headed and what would pakistans need be in the coming years with what kind of package.
> 
> I would recommend listening to what the Retd Air Marshall stated about the shortcomings of the aircraft J-10.
> 
> In the longer run what that meant was that if you do this this and this modification to the aircraft---you will end up with a world class fighter aircraft that you could be proud of and which would fit our needs as well.
> 
> Chinese understand & appreciate pakistan's combat experience very well---. *They have a great ability to listen* and make the needed changes and the results are in front of us. It is a team thing.



i second that with my almost three decades of experience with them. i would also say it was PAK JF-17 team with their efforts in the project which paved the way for the Chinese to look into what we say even later.

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## redgriffin

Aesterix said:


> Don't worry, your wife will find a way to kill you ... at least kill your joy.
> That's what wives are for. To make men as boring as women are.


100 agreement. My old Saitek X-56 got thrown out behind my back one day & all I could say when I found out was "But why?"

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## MH.Yang

syed_yusuf said:


> Yes u are right I mean to say for a single engine fighter
> 
> I think no other fighter except su35 or j16 may have more fuel per engine than j10
> 
> This is one area where j10cp excel hands down


There are only two single engine high thrust 4G fighters in the world, J10 and F16. 
So this is a competition with only two athletes. Even if you win, it doesn't make any sense.

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## HRK

lcloo said:


> Those are formation light, used at night time for formation flights where two to four jets are flying close to each other in the dark.


it was just a light hearted joke and a tongue in a cheek remark about the argument of Selling of "Downgraded J-10C" to Pakistan

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## kursed

God truly works in mysterious ways.

Indians first reduce their order of 100+ Rafales to 36 odd jets.

Pakistan keeps mum about another buy until the last very moment, while the world piles on orders for Rafale, effectively shutting the doors on a follow up order by IAF until the end of the decade. Unless they order an entire manufacturing line of their own, which given the corruption allegations - I highly doubt is happening. 

Pakistan buys 3 sqns worth of a work horse of a jet, that has seen more development within Chinese weapon ecosystem than any other…ensuring a viable and robust after sale update cycle.

I am not sure this was a result of conscious decision making or merely fate at play, but what a sight to behold.

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## Ghessan

Riz said:


> The day US offers india F-35s , China will ok J-20 sale to Pakistan, China is not offering J-20 to Pakistan because this deal will start unnecessary arm race in south asia which china dont want right now



i think China and Pakistan both are not talking about it for now. PAF would go ahead only if a need a rise, what is wise in it is don't push India towards such acquisition it buys us time and what else we need with our own game plan.


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## ziaulislam

I hope PAF goes all in j10 now rather then making it a stop gap
Atleast 4-5 squardons should be built up since f16s will start losing their life rapidly post 2030 (especially the older ones)


----------



## Deino

Aesterix said:


> Just found out the Chinese duped us.
> They installed 3x light stripes on their J-10C but only two stripes on PAF version.
> Must ask for a partial refund, due to missing one بتی
> 
> View attachment 816415




Well, so indeed the Pakistani version is a downgraded one of the regular PLAAF version!

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## Vapnope

I see @airomerix here.
Welcome and you are dearly missed at PDF.

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## The Terminator

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am sorry my post came out that way.
> 
> The recommendations were made during Musharraf's time---when the General asked the Paf to go for the J10's and he had agreed with the chinese for 36 aircraft for the PAF. Paf team looked at the aircraft and requested for some 40 + changes to be made to the aircraft---and the Retd Air Marshall Latif was leading that team.
> 
> *But the PAF was not interested in buying that aircraft at that time---. They were just forced into that position by Gen Musharraf--*-.
> 
> Later on the decision to purchase was around 2014 or so and off course---you are correct---WS10 was the key and certain other technologies needed to mature---because PAF did not want to go back and do the upgrades at a later date---.
> 
> Again I say---it is a major weapons purchase---a key component of pakistan's air defense---a totally different product that the PAF is used to---.
> 
> I would add that the J10 has been assessed and tested by the PAF like no other aircraft before---. It would still be put thru the ringer further more.


Musharraf was a clever man and his decision was spot on. But PAF had their obvious concerns about inducting a fast slash and dash fighter like J-10A which was against the PAF's philosophy. So in subsequent B and C variants of J-10 they improved a lot in other fields but become more of western style multirole platform with less emphasis on raw speed.

Chinese also have changed their force structure and military doctrine since then. Now they are more similar to the western forces rather than Russians

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## Ghessan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494552260600217600

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## The Terminator

Deino said:


> Well, so indeed the Pakistani version is a downgraded one of the regular PLAAF version!


No we have more advanced, bigger EW suite in J-10CP so that's why less space left for LED lights.

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## Chak Bamu

Goritoes said:


> Pakistani Baji : Han bhai yeh Badge Kesa diye ?
> Chinese : Baji, 100 rupee ka 1 hai, Imported hai.
> Pakistani Baji : ary bhai apke daam tu buhat hai, baraber wali dukan wala tu 50 rupee ka 1 de raha hai...
> Chinese : Baji, 80 rupee ka tu hum ko parta hai, dosri dukan wala China se managta ho ga...
> 
> Awkward silence...
> 
> Pakistani baji : Chalen dekhen na bas 70 rupee ka 1 laga len, bache bhi shor macha rahe hai...
> Chinese : Nai ho ga baji, 80 Rupee ka 1 ker dun ga final...
> Pakistani Baji : Nai... Ache rehne den hum kaheen aur se le len gay...
> Chinese : Chalen baji na apki na meri 75 ka 1 final, Bismillah karen baji aap pehle customer hain.
> 
> Deal done PDF khush


Written like a true man.

A woman would have started haggling by offering to buy at 20. You & I might be happy with a 25% discount, but not an average Baji.

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## Riz

Ghessan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494552260600217600


Would love to know the changes inside cockpit of J-10cp , EW and radar

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## Goritoes

Chak Bamu said:


> Written like a true man.
> 
> A woman would have started haggling by offering to buy at 20. You & I might be happy with a 25% discount, but not an average Baji.


Oh my eldest brother is one hell of a Baji, we used to go Bakra mandi to buy animal, the seller gives a price of lets say 50,000 Pkr, and my brother be like 15,000 pkr ka de rahe ho ? then my brother use his catch phrase, 3 baar ponchun ga, De rahe ho ? De rahe ho? De rahe ho ? acha chalo aage barho hahaha I was scared to even go with him hahah he would get beaten up and will get me beaten up too hahah

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## JohnWick

Deino said:


> Well, so indeed the Pakistani version is a downgraded one of the regular PLAAF version!


Sir also include one antenna which is less in Pakistan variant J-10


----------



## Trailer23

Chak Bamu said:


> Written like a true man.
> 
> A woman would have started haggling by offering to buy at 20. You & I might be happy with a 25% discount, but not an average Baji.


That would explain why a veteran like @araz bhai & myself never go inside the shops while negotiations are taking place when wives are dealing with shopkeepers.

[bicharay dukaan-walay pay bhee taras ata hai. Haan jab dukaan say nikalti hain, tou dukaan-waly ko hum par taras ata hai]​

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## Sayfullah

MastanKhan said:


> You did not learn how to talk to the americans---.
> 
> The Israelis did.
> 
> My old school american friends hated the jews and israel with a vengeance.



Their hate of each other brings them closer.
Americans ( Evangelical Christians ) hate Jews more then anyone alive. But they have common interests. Evangelical Christians believe the Jews will build third temple and then Christians will destroy Jews in a final battle in the holy lands. Jews believe they will destroy Christians in the final battle. It is for this reason USA (biggest place of evangelical Christians with their strongest lobby there) arms israel to the teeth because it is in their interests for Israel to build the third temple, but the third temple is where Masjid Al Aqsa is present so building it would mean demolishing the third holiest site in Islam which would invite a response from the whole Ummah. 
This is why usa continues to arm and support Israel and also why they accepted Al Quds as their capital. 
The more they hate each other the closer they get. Zionist rabbis openly say evangelical Christians are bigger Zionists then Zionists Jews for this reason. 

Whatever Pakistan does, how best it talks, it can never make usa treat it how it treats Israel. The way to get American support is to win over evangelical lobby which only jews can do.

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## NA71

Please check dissimilarities on marked location...the missing Data link Antenna




might be relocated in CP


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## SIPRA

JohnWick said:


> Sir also include one antenna which is less in Pakistan variant J-10



Hum khud lagwa lain gay, Bilaal Ganj say.

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> Window Shopping =/= shopping, you don't go around telling people I saw a million things in the shop windows, you only tell about the pair of sox you buy. Negotiations=/= Deals.


Just and wait and watch in next ten to fifteen years you would be hearing news about one weapon system after another. For all three forces several such systems are coming



Hodor said:


> People enjoying J-10's induction..
> 
> Meanwhile :
> 
> *Mastan Khan* : Sb maafi mango mere se
> 
> *Zarvan* literally after every 2 pages : Just wait and watch
> 
> P.s : Just a friendly post , no hate intended


Because I am getting news of one system after another but off course I am happy about J-10 C I am just waiting for them to be officially revealed then I would entertain myself by watching Indian media.

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## Trailer23

Zarvan said:


> Because I am getting news of one system after another...


Yaar, you've got some contacts...

Do any of them that know if i'm gonna get a raise/bonus this year?

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## Zarvan

Trailer23 said:


> Yaar, you've got some contacts...
> 
> Do any of them that know if i'm gonna get a raise/bonus this year?


Those who are following these matters no. I am not the one with contacts but those who break these news I know them. Even MODS here pretty much most of them knows a about a lot more weapons which they can't reveal until permission is given. Tipu gave you a hint and you are not believing it so just relax and like I said before you would hear about lot of different weapon systems in next 10 years. We are making up for loss decade and we are doing fast by grace and mercy of ALLAH

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## Areesh

@Zarvan 


Just move on. Jis bhi weapon nai jab aana hoga aa jaye ga. There is no point in keep repeating the same

You believe Pakistan is getting more F16 or EFT?? Then good for you. Just move on now

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## Big_bud

NA71 said:


> Please check dissimilarities on marked location...the missing Data link Antenna
> View attachment 816448
> might be relocated in CP



No one is noticing extra sensor on J10CP next to number 720, missing in Chinese version. Is it an additional MAWs sensor?

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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> Yaar, you've got some contacts...
> 
> Do any of them that know if i'm gonna get a raise/bonus this year?


Transatlantic flights might get you that raise someday


----------



## Trailer23

Raider 21 said:


> Transatlantic flights might get you that raise someday


...certainly not on a Narrow-body.

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## NA71

Big_bud said:


> No one is noticing extra sensor on J10CP next to number 720, missing in Chinese version. Is it an additional MAWs sensor?

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## Zarvan

Please stop comparing our J-10 C with Chinese ones. Ours is modified according to our requirements. Things which we wanted put in they were put in them. So it won't be 100 % match to Chinese ones. Just enjoy them coming and pretty much 60 already confirmed. More can happen specially if India orders more Rafale.

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## tphuang

A few more things.

I am not sure why certain people are still talking about su35. It's really not very good. J10c and j16 routinely whips it in fact. In terms of avionics, it's far behind what china is using on it's 4th gen aircraft. There is no aesa radar option for su35. It doesn't exist. The Russians haven't figured out how to mass produce aesa radar cost efficiently yet. I am not sure why people are still talking about it. It's not that good. Nobody is even importing it anymore.

Let's put it this way. If India picks su35 avionics on it's mki upgrade, paf will have a qualitative advantage over iaf for years.

Rafale probably is a more capable aircraft than j10c right now. At least in terms of multirole capability. That's why it's winning export sales everywhere. But despite the French and Indian advertising, it doesn't have stealth and will be a severe under dog vs j20 or f35. J10c will be a quality for against it. The rumoured scenario of rafale ew suite jamming su35 radar is due to the weakness of su35 avionics rather than rafale ew suite being the best in the world. By this point, j10c would have been tested against the more powerful ew suite of j20 and j16.

Again, not saying j10c is some miracle aircraft, but it's pretty capable. Among 4th gen fighters, I would only put the latest rafale and f15e ahead of it in terms of full combat capabilities. Those also happen to be the two aircraft that everyone without f35 access are getting.

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## HRK

NA71 said:


> Please check dissimilarities on marked location...the missing Data link Antenna
> View attachment 816448
> might be relocated in CP


J-10CP have similar arrangement of antenna as present on JF-17

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## Aesterix

NA71 said:


> View attachment 816465


That's a light. The one you placed the arrow on.


----------



## Tehmasib

Two birds confirmed and in cage, congratulations Pakistan

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## SQ8

Goritoes said:


> Sacha Pakistani hone ke saboot aur Jaraseem


Issi mitti ki paidawar hain - zindagi guzri hai inhi galiyon mein.



Aesterix said:


> Well yes, the J-20 has similar lights.
> Looks like J-19CP has similar lights. But why?
> Screenshot of J-20 with بتیاں۔
> View attachment 816409
> 
> 
> View attachment 816410
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Actually these strip lights seem to be standard feature in J-10C . I could find only one picture of the lights being used, and it's faint.
> View attachment 816413
> 
> 
> 
> But the question remains, what benefits these light strips , front and back, bring?


They help in positioning in formations

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## Beast

tphuang said:


> A few more things.
> 
> I am not sure why certain people are still talking about su35. It's really not very good. J10c and j16 routinely whips it in fact. In terms of avionics, it's far behind what china is using on it's 4th gen aircraft. There is no aesa radar option for su35. It doesn't exist. The Russians haven't figured out how to mass produce aesa radar cost efficiently yet. I am not sure why people are still talking about it. It's not that good. Nobody is even importing it anymore.
> 
> Let's put it this way. If India picks su35 avionics on it's mki upgrade, paf will have a qualitative advantage over iaf for years.
> 
> Rafale probably is a more capable aircraft than j10c right now. At least in terms of multirole capability. That's why it's winning export sales everywhere. But despite the French and Indian advertising, it doesn't have stealth and will be a severe under dog vs j20 or f35. J10c will be a quality for against it. The rumoured scenario of rafale ew suite jamming su35 radar is due to the weakness of su35 avionics rather than rafale ew suite being the best in the world. By this point, j10c would have been tested against the more powerful ew suite of j20 and j16.
> 
> Again, not saying j10c is some miracle aircraft, but it's pretty capable. Among 4th gen fighters, I would only put the latest rafale and f15e ahead of it in terms of full combat capabilities. Those also happen to be the two aircraft that everyone without f35 access are getting.








Why J-10C repeatly defeat J-16 in Chinese air war game?


J-16 has more powerful AESA, avionics but still loses to J-10C which has inferior AESA and avionics compare to J-16. Reason, RCS of J-10C are carefully treated with DSI inlet, treated with RCS reduction coating and some proper angle of aligning which significantly reduce RCS to 0.4m. Therefore...



defence.pk


----------



## arjunk

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am one of the senior most members on this forum.
> 
> I used to be on the think Tank but I resigned my commission many years ago due to difference of opinion with those who stated that pakistan did not have funds and will get nothing from china ever and J10 does not bring anything to the table---.
> 
> There will be no Type 054's---pakistan is broke---there will be no chinese submarines---and look now---none of them has any shame to come forward and apologize--*-hey @araz---how about an apology.
> 
> & mods---don't delete the post.*


You are about to hit 20,000 posts. This is post 19,999.

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## MH.Yang

tphuang said:


> A few more things.
> 
> I am not sure why certain people are still talking about su35. It's really not very good. J10c and j16 routinely whips it in fact. In terms of avionics, it's far behind what china is using on it's 4th gen aircraft. There is no aesa radar option for su35. It doesn't exist. The Russians haven't figured out how to mass produce aesa radar cost efficiently yet. I am not sure why people are still talking about it. It's not that good. Nobody is even importing it anymore.
> 
> Let's put it this way. If India picks su35 avionics on it's mki upgrade, paf will have a qualitative advantage over iaf for years.
> 
> Rafale probably is a more capable aircraft than j10c right now. At least in terms of multirole capability. That's why it's winning export sales everywhere. But despite the French and Indian advertising, it doesn't have stealth and will be a severe under dog vs j20 or f35. J10c will be a quality for against it. The rumoured scenario of rafale ew suite jamming su35 radar is due to the weakness of su35 avionics rather than rafale ew suite being the best in the world. By this point, j10c would have been tested against the more powerful ew suite of j20 and j16.
> 
> Again, not saying j10c is some miracle aircraft, but it's pretty capable. Among 4th gen fighters, I would only put the latest rafale and f15e ahead of it in terms of full combat capabilities. Those also happen to be the two aircraft that everyone without f35 access are getting.



Su-35 can perform some tasks that J10C is not suitable for, like J16 in PLAAF. 

In 2018, PLAAF obtained 24 Su-35. The Chinese added AESA to them and could use PL-15.

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## cssniper

MH.Yang said:


> Su-35 can perform some tasks that J10C is not suitable for, like J16 in PLAAF.
> 
> In 2018, PLAAF obtained 24 Su-35. The Chinese added AESA to them and could use PL-15.


You must be joking...

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## Aesterix

MH.Yang said:


> Su-35 can perform some tasks that J10C is not suitable for, like J16 in PLAAF.
> 
> In 2018, PLAAF obtained 24 Su-35. The Chinese added AESA to them and could use PL-15.


Pakistan is too small In size to warrant the need of large twin engine fighter jets.
China has to cover area from xinjiang to South China Sea. Likewise India has large airspace from Nepalese border to Andanan islands. So the use of large twin engine jets with high fuel carrying capacity and longer flight duration is justified. 
Why would Pakistan ever need such large jets, is beyond me.

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## Engima Chaudhry

Aesterix said:


> View attachment 816366
> 
> 
> What are these?


Formation flying light strip the linear one. The round one is ADF intercept light , like the one we have on adf f16 bought from Jordan.

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## NA71

Aesterix said:


> That's a light. The one you placed the arrow on.


Just before that assembly there is a little antenna like shape as well...right?


----------



## Aesterix

NA71 said:


> Just before that assembly there is a little antenna like shape as well...right?


Yes, but that little antenna is also present on the Chinese version.


----------



## Engima Chaudhry

kursed said:


> AEW&C radars are not fire control radars.


Link 17 , like link 16 , can be used to provide two way data link to update the missile to guide to a target, where the missile can turn on its own radar and goes pitbull. So , technically it is possible.


----------



## NA71

Tehmasib said:


> Two birds confirmed and in cage, congratulations Pakistan


transported ?


----------



## Engima Chaudhry

Engima Chaudhry said:


> Link 17 , like link 16 , can be used to provide two way data link to update the missile to guide to a target, where the missile can turn on its own radar and goes pitbull. So , technically it is possible.


Meteor missile has this capability ( inducted 2004) . Shouldn't be surprising, I guess ,if sd 10 and pl15 has this ability.


----------



## Trailer23

_Khabees logoö_,

First Juma since images of the PAF J-10's broke out on the internet*.

*(by the way: God Bless the internet)

2-Rakat Nafil Shukrany ke he par lo.

Mai abhe *New fighter for PAF Doctrine?* pay ja kar kum-say-kum *25 F-shola* ke Neyat karnay ja raha hoon.

-_T23_

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## baqai

Deino said:


> Well, so indeed the Pakistani version is a downgraded one of the regular PLAAF version!



fikar nishta ... we will go to Shershah and get the TYPE-R and NOS sticker


Goritoes said:


> Oh my eldest brother is one hell of a Baji, we used to go Bakra mandi to buy animal, the seller gives a price of lets say 50,000 Pkr, and my brother be like 15,000 pkr ka de rahe ho ? then my brother use his catch phrase, 3 baar ponchun ga, De rahe ho ? De rahe ho? De rahe ho ? acha chalo aage barho hahaha I was scared to even go with him hahah he would get beaten up and will get me beaten up too hahah



I was with my late mom (may Allah bless her soul) and we were at this store getting something, can't remember what exactly it was and how much it was for

Ammi: ye kitnay ka hai
Shopkeeper: 1000 ka
Ammi: 75 doon gi 
Me: WTF (trying to look for exit)

I HATED going shopping with her and now i HATE going shopping with my better half, i am terrible at this lol 

P.S Ammi haggled it down to 200 *rolling my eyes*

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## Engima Chaudhry

Aaag lorri , bomb driver .


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We're all going to call it Firebird.


----------



## Goenitz

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am one of the senior most members on this forum.
> 
> I used to be on the think Tank but I resigned my commission many years ago due to difference of opinion with those who stated that pakistan did not have funds and will get nothing from china ever and J10 does not bring anything to the table---.
> 
> There will be no Type 054's---pakistan is broke---there will be no chinese submarines---and look now---none of them has any shame to come forward and apologize--*-hey @araz---how about an apology.
> 
> & mods---don't delete the post.*


I don't know the rest but I evidently remember you pushing for J8II, especially for PN.

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## kursed

Engima Chaudhry said:


> Link 17 , like link 16 , can be used to provide two way data link to update the missile to guide to a target, where the missile can turn on its own radar and goes pitbull. So , technically it is possible.


That’s the job of a fire control radar.


----------



## Tehmasib

NA71 said:


> transported ?


No, birds fly at drak night...
ہم اپنے نئے کبوتروں کو پہلے 10 دن بند کرتے ہیں تاکہ مانوس ہو جائیں

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## The Eagle

kursed said:


> God truly works in mysterious ways.
> 
> Indians first reduce their order of 100+ Rafales to 36 odd jets.
> 
> Pakistan keeps mum about another buy until the last very moment, while the world piles on orders for Rafale, effectively shutting the doors on a follow up order by IAF until the end of the decade. Unless they order an entire manufacturing line of their own, which given the corruption allegations - I highly doubt is happening.
> 
> Pakistan buys 3 sqns worth of a work horse of a jet, that has seen more development within Chinese weapon ecosystem than any other…ensuring a viable and robust after sale update cycle.
> 
> I am not sure this was a result of conscious decision making or merely fate at play, but what a sight to behold.



Ajit Doval once said that "Pakistani Generals told me that Taliban will overrun Afghanistan but I didn't believe them". He said it while addressing some British Defence committee I think. However, Taliban did run-over Afghanistan. 

We have our way of doing things. This is just PDF members and some media houses being on bashing train and never had the patience. Blue Boys or any other branch, they know how to counter and keep an edge with quality.

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## TopGun786

Presenting to you the Mighty J10 Chocolate

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## MH.Yang

cssniper said:


> You must be joking...




I'm not joking. PLAAF does have 24 su-35s, which have been modified. 




Aesterix said:


> Pakistan is too small In size to warrant the need of large twin engine fighter jets.
> China has to cover area from xinjiang to South China Sea. Likewise India has large airspace from Nepalese border to Andanan islands. So the use of large twin engine jets with high fuel carrying capacity and longer flight duration is justified.
> Why would Pakistan ever need such large jets, is beyond me.



Don't you want to go for a ride in the Indian Ocean? And say hello to Indian ships?

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## Skywalker

rAli said:


> Celebrate the J-10C, plz leave the F-16 out of this thread.
> 
> Is PAF planning to give J-10C a local name? To me the J-10C looks like a 'Gyrfalcon'. Google if you don't know what that is.
> 
> Few questions @PanzerKiel @kursed
> 
> Which PAF squadron is going to get it first?
> 
> Any idea about the cockpit layout? Three MFDs or single MFD?


Dragon Bhai


----------



## The Eagle

ARMalik said:


> In principle they should apologize; there is no doubt about it. But then it would be trying to squeeze water out of stones.



No one is here to win the internet world and be praised like keyboard joe. This is a Forum. You say something and move on. Let the people agree or disagree. Stop with brownie points stupidity. What's for apologizing? We are not here to shame and name. It's just a shameless act. Grow up and move on.

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## NA71

Tehmasib said:


> No, birds fly at drak night...
> ہم اپنے نئے کبوتروں کو پہلے 10 دن بند کرتے ہیں تاکہ مانوس ہو جائیں


Just fantastic reply........urdu wali line tu kamal hy .....jeetey raho


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## Aesterix

MH.Yang said:


> I'm not joking. PLAAF does have 24 su-35s, which have been modified.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you want to go for a ride in the Indian Ocean? And say hello to Indian ships?


Have cruise missiles for that. Why send the jets all the way.


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## Sulman Badshah

Differences between C and C

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## The Eagle

Sulman Badshah said:


> Differences between C and C
> View attachment 816484
> View attachment 816483
> View attachment 816482
> View attachment 816481
> View attachment 816480



There are so many upgrades and EW gadgets put in extra for PAF. Very few may see it. PAF specific allocations of MAWS, RWRs to be precisely. Differently shaped antennas tells a lot of modification done for PAF.

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## Aesterix

Sulman Badshah said:


> Differences between C and C
> View attachment 816484
> View attachment 816483
> View attachment 816482
> View attachment 816481
> View attachment 816480


Apart from the antenna, the rest has more to do with the batch of J-10C, Rather than C or CP.
Older batches didn't have MAWS near the air intake, batch 5 and later have that.
PAF is getting the latest batch 7.



The Eagle said:


> There are so many upgrades and EW gadgets put in extra for PAF. Very few may see it. PAF specific allocations of MAWS, RWRs to be precisely. Differently shaped antennas tells a lot of modification done for PAF.


MAWS seem to be added after batch 5 , regardless of PAF or Chinese version. 
PAF getting batch 7. However there may be other PAF specific changes.



TopGun786 said:


> View attachment 816479
> Presenting to you the Mighty J10 Chocolate


Wait for J-10 naswaar.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Aesterix said:


> Apart from the antenna, the rest has more to do with the batch of J-10C, Rather than C or CP.
> Older batches didn't have MAWS near the air intake, batch 5 and later have that.
> PAF is getting the latest batch 7.
> 
> 
> MAWS seem to be added after batch 5 , regardless of PAF or Chinese version.
> PAF getting batch 7. However there may be other PAF specific changes.


So in-built IRST is also present.
Some people were saying that PAF doesn't need IRST but here it is 🙂

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## MH.Yang

Aesterix said:


> Have cruise missiles for that. Why send the jets all the way.



The max-range of Su-35 is 3600km. 

Chinese Su-35 can use YJ62&YJ83 &YJ91. The max-range of these missiles is 280km, the max-speed is Mach 1.5, the lowest flight altitude is only 1.5m from the sea surface.

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## Aesterix

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> So in-built IRST is also present.
> Some people were saying that PAF doesn't need IRST but here it is 🙂


We can all thank Modi jee .
He gave the February 2019 experience/ experiment to PAF.
That in my opinion, changed PAF doctrine and gave them tons of confidence. 
IRST more useful in WVR combat, which PAF now seems to be confident with.
Previous PAF didn't want to go near Indian jets and engage in BVR only, hence no need of IRST.

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## The Eagle

Aesterix said:


> MAWS seem to be added after batch 5 , regardless of PAF or Chinese version.
> PAF getting batch 7. However there may be other PAF specific changes.



I see. People arguing over number if antennas, is irrelevant and that's all I can say.

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## ARMalik

The Eagle said:


> No one is here to win the internet world and be praised like keyboard joe. This is a Forum. You say something and move on. Let the people agree or disagree. Stop with brownie points stupidity. What's for apologizing? We are not here to shame and name. It's just a shameless act. Grow up and move on.



You misinterpreted the post. That's what I was saying that _"It would be like squeezing water out of stone" _meaning *NO ONE WILL BOTHER WITH APOLOGIZING *_*(hence should move on). *_

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## Shotgunner51

MH.Yang said:


> In 2018, PLAAF obtained 24 Su-35. The Chinese added AESA to them and could use PL-15.


No. Delivery of Su-35 started in late 2016 not 2018 (4 units in 2016, 10 in 2017, 10 in 2018). These birds are primarily used by FTTC (175 AB "Blue Team") for tactics development & skills training especially TVC-related battle, replacing the 27SK. PLAAF doesn't even bother to change the Russian style blue-grey camouflage let alone its avionics.

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## Aesterix

The Eagle said:


> I see. People arguing over number if antennas, is irrelevant and that's all I can say.


True.
If we compare the shapes of antenna in CP and C , the single tall antenna on top are very different.
Meaning this antenna may have different purpose frequency or capacity than the one on C , Chinese version.


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## The Terminator

NA71 said:


> Please check dissimilarities on marked location...the missing Data link Antenna
> View attachment 816448
> might be relocated in CP


Even the middle antenna looks different and bigger on J-10CP.



Big_bud said:


> No one is noticing extra sensor on J10CP next to number 720, missing in Chinese version. Is it an additional MAWs sensor?


Because it resembles to one on JF-17 😜


----------



## Princeps Senatus

MH.Yang said:


> I'm not joking. PLAAF does have 24 su-35s, which have been modified.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you want to go for a ride in the Indian Ocean? And say hello to Indian ships?


JF-17s based at Karachi can do that


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## Reichmarshal

Our deal with the Chinese ( if it materializes) regarding their 
Su 35 would be more a lease agreement. As these birds will primarily be for the defence of our sea lanes n to keep the cpac lines of comm open ie their primarily mission will be in a naval role.
These birds have already been heavily modified by the Chinese, but with the progress of Chinese 5th gen. Ac they have no role/use for the su 35.

So at this point a win win for all.

Ps : some of the member at the time of the signing of the deal between Russia n China for the su 35 were saying that to overcome the threat of sanctions n russian apprehensions, China is buying these jets for Pakistan n will be transfered over time. 
It might have been wishful thinking at the time but now it stands a very real chance of becoming reality.

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## The Terminator

Reichmarshal said:


> Our deal with the Chinese ( if it materializes) regarding their
> Su 35 would be more a lease agreement. As these birds will primarily be for the defence of our sea lanes n to keep the cpac lines of comm open ie their primarily mission will be in a naval role.
> These birds have already been heavily modified by the Chinese, but with the progress of Chinese 5th gen. Ac they have no role/use for the su 35.
> 
> So at this point a win win for all.
> 
> Ps : some of the member at the time of the signing of the deal between Russia n China for the su 35 were saying that to overcome the threat of sanctions n russian apprehensions, China is buying these jets for Pakistan n will be transfered over time.
> It might have been wishful thinking at the time but now it stands a very real chance of becoming reality.


Once operational at a respectable scale, defending CPEC integrity and related comms channels could be more of a concern for Chinese rather than us. So even if we don't get anything on lease, Chinese would be compelled to intervene and defend their only other supply line apart from the already vulnerable route going through Indian ocean and not so friendly South China Sea.


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## Tehmasib

Just for information! 6 to 8 J10CP BATCH 1, will arrive (inshaallah) Ist week of Mar 2022
ہمارے استاد چین میں 23 مارچ پاسٹ کے مطابق ان پر اپنا ہاتھ صاف کررہے ہیں

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## xuxu1457

I think Pakistani pilots have already completed the flight training of the J10 fighter in China.


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## Taimoor Khan

ziaulislam said:


> But in 1970s -1990s french fighters like mirage2000 were wotld class fighters..
> 
> Well china waspoorer then pakistan in 1980s. So that is not a way to compare things



French still make good jets, the problem is, they are stuck at 4.5 generation. While China has leapfrogged to 5 and even beyond. One this basis, when you are comparing J10 and Rafale, J10 is superior because it is borrowing technology from Chinese fifth gen platforms like J20. Rafale do not have this exposure, even Eurofighter I would say. This is the problem with European jets.

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## SIPRA

Hodor said:


> Meanwhile Pakistani market will introduce J-10 Naswar



.... and a detergent powder, as well.

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## Taimoor Khan

MastanKhan said:


> *The JF17* and the J10 have still to be battle proven



With all due respect, JF17 dropped their SOWs and pinged Indian military installation during op swift retort. Throughout that episode, they took the brunt of CAPS all over the eastern border, successfully intercepting/locking many Indian top of the line jets. 

On the other hand, European jets like Rafale and Eurofighter , at best, dropped some bombs on rag tags militias in Mali and Libya.

Who do you think is more "battle proven"?

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## PakAlp

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am one of the senior most members on this forum.
> 
> I used to be on the think Tank but I resigned my commission many years ago due to difference of opinion with those who stated that pakistan did not have funds and will get nothing from china ever and J10 does not bring anything to the table---.
> 
> There will be no Type 054's---pakistan is broke---there will be no chinese submarines---and look now---none of them has any shame to come forward and apologize--*-hey @araz---how about an apology.
> 
> & mods---don't delete the post.*



I remember your posts and you were always a knowlegeble mature person, but think about it from their point of view, we are a poor nation and it was unimaginable that Pakistan would be able to buy latest tech planes or even that China will be able to achieve what it has done. PDF is a platform where people share their opinions and its a good thing to have difference of opinions and points. 
Even today its unbelievable what we have achieved, back in 2002 we had 6 used frigates but today we have brand new latest technology planes, subs, ships, missiles. InshaAllah our economy, education and security will also be world class.



tphuang said:


> Given where things are heading, I think it's possible for China to export J-20 to Pakistan in the next 10 years. 5 years ago, I didn't think they'd export it to anyone. But keep in mind that if China does export something like J-20 to Pakistan, Pakistan would have to be 100% aligned with China. None of this we try to be on good terms with US, so that we can get F-16V.



J20 will be around 20 years old tech by 2030s and China will be preparing to induct next generation AI planes. China is already incorporating many 6th generation technologies on to the J20s so its definitely likely Pakistan will have the J20s, J35s and Tfx available.

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## graphican

Deino said:


> Well, so indeed the Pakistani version is a downgraded one of the regular PLAAF version!



Differential ≠ Downgrade.

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## TopGun786

graphican said:


> Differential ≠ Downgrade.


He was sarcastic.

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## HaMoTZeMaS

PakFactor said:


> Down the road we need stealth planes F-35 types; we can't wait for India to induct and then we counter we need to stay multiple steps ahead and integrate these assets.


bhai sahab..
dont get too emotional.. our pockets are not that deep to afford stealth
We have been going asymmetric from beginning, so is this time in case india gets hands on F35 class of jets


----------



## Khan vilatey

HRK said:


> with every jet engine there is limit of number of use of afterburner after which Jet engine is required necessary checks and service ....
> 
> this thing contribute in the availability and / or non-availability of Fighter jet


False information , afterburners do not contribute more to inspection of overhaul time. It’s based on total used/ elapsed time!!!

F-16s and jf-17 regularly as part of the SOP use afterburners for take off specially when carrying external fuel tanks due to drag

…..





K

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## graphican

Taimoor Khan said:


> With all due respect, JF17 dropped their SOWs and pinged Indian military installation during op swift retort. Throughout that episode, they took the brunt of CAPS all over the eastern border, successfully intercepting/locking many Indian top of the line jets.
> 
> On the other hand, European jets like Rafale and Eurofighter , at best, dropped some bombs on rag tags militias in Mali and Libya.
> 
> Who do you think is more "battle proven"?



Pakistan is flying JF-17 for 18+ years and they got "battle proven" against India in the highly contested air-skirmish.
India is flying Rafael for less than 1 year and they got "battle proven" by someone else against someone else. Indians at best heard about this story. That is how much they are related to it.

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## Deino

Deino said:


> Well, so indeed the Pakistani version is a downgraded one of the regular PLAAF version!




Seems as if some missed by irony or sarcasm! 

Anyway, what do you think ... did I miss something?

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## tphuang

MH.Yang said:


> Su-35 can perform some tasks that J10C is not suitable for, like J16 in PLAAF.
> 
> In 2018, PLAAF obtained 24 Su-35. The Chinese added AESA to them and could use PL-15.


That's simply not true. Please stop making things up. Find me one real source that says su35 use Chinese aesa radar and can use pl15.

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## Zarvan

Princeps Senatus said:


> JF-17s based at Karachi can do that


JF-17 can do that and I am not saying SU-35 of China are coming in fact no chance at all but SU 35 is double engine beast and JF-17 is single engine light weight jet. The firepower which can be carried by SU 35, JF-17 doesn't even come close



Deino said:


> Seems as if some missed by irony or sarcasm!
> 
> Anyway, what do you think ... did I miss something?
> 
> View attachment 816501


Pakistanis including me end up missing sarcasm on lot of occasions

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Seems as if some missed by irony or sarcasm!
> 
> Anyway, what do you think ... did I miss something?
> 
> View attachment 816501



I don't think people bothered to read the actual descriptions before getting triggered. Downgraded version apparently uses tech from J-20, lol.

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## Deino

tphuang said:


> That's simply not true. Please stop making things up. Find me one real source that says su35 use Chinese aesa radar and can use pl15.



And even more it cannot carry YJ-62 AShMs.



MH.Yang said:


> The max-range of Su-35 is 3600km.
> 
> Chinese Su-35 can use YJ62&YJ83 &YJ91. The max-range of these missiles is 280km, the max-speed is Mach 1.5, the lowest flight altitude is only 1.5m from the sea surface.



Most of all since there is not even an air-launched YJ-62 available!

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## White privilege

Riz said:


> The day US offers india F-35s , China will ok J-20 sale to Pakistan, China is not offering J-20 to Pakistan because this deal will start unnecessary arm race in south asia which china dont want right now


It's true.Even Pakistan wouldn't want an arms race that burns cash like that, but we can bet that PAF is prepared for that and has already considered its 5th gen options.


----------



## MH.Yang

tphuang said:


> That's simply not true. Please stop making things up. Find me one real source that says su35 use Chinese aesa radar and can use pl15.




Su-35 belongs to aliens in PLAAF, it is not valued and liked by the Chinese people. 
So few important military magazines pay attention to them, only a few small media reported that they were refitted.

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## siegecrossbow

MH.Yang said:


> View attachment 816511
> 
> View attachment 816512



This is like the Chinese version of Jai Hind media.

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## MH.Yang

siegecrossbow said:


> This is like the Chinese version of Jai Hind media.



Regular Chinese military media rarely pay attention to those Su-35 because Chinese military fans don't like them.

Pakistan has an Perry class mission ship. Will Pakistan's military media pay close attention to it?

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## Deino

MH.Yang said:


> Regular Chinese military media rarely pay attention to those Su-35 because Chinese military fans don't like them.




But that does not make such claims more reliable.

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## alikazmi007

TopGun786 said:


> View attachment 816479
> Presenting to you the Mighty J10 Chocolate


wait till you see J-10 Naswar, J-10 Spicy Chips, J-10 Prickley Heat Powder ....... I'm looking forward J-10 toothpaste!

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## MH.Yang

Deino said:


> But that does not make such claims more reliable.


OK, I admit that these media are unreliable.
But we should at least admit that China has the ability to modify these Su-35.
PAF can obtain Su-35 with AESA added if Pakistan needs that.

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## siegecrossbow

MH.Yang said:


> Regular Chinese military media rarely pay attention to those Su-35 because Chinese military fans don't like them.
> 
> Pakistan has an Perry class mission ship. Will Pakistan's military media pay close attention to it?



China can’t make modifications to the Su-35 without permissions from the Russian side. They made it clear in the deal after J-11B. We’ve seen PL-12 and PL-8 on Su-30MKK, why not on Su-35?

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## redtom

MH.Yang said:


> OK, I admit that these media are unreliable.
> But we should at least admit that China has the ability to modify these Su-35.
> PAF can obtain Su-35 with AESA added if Pakistan needs that.


Summarized from multiple relatively reliable sources, China cannot modify SU35, Russia forbids these.
The SU35 is currently used for fighting games against Vietnamese and American aircraft .

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## TsAr

帅的一匹 said:


> I think they should award you as PDF think tank right now. Without PAF’s advice and vision, J10 c won’t be as that great as it is now. Hope J10 will keep evolving and PAF pilots will push it to limit. No one understands J10 more than PAF does.


Many here might not like his crude style of posting but he is a very senior knowledgeable member of the forum.

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## Windjammer

Just wondering if there are any twin seat J-10s in the package, else PAF chief will lead the 23rd March flypast either in the Block-52D or Thunder Bravo.

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## Shotgunner51

MH.Yang said:


> But we should at least admit that China has the ability to modify these Su-35.


Ability, action and purpose are three different things. As a matter of fact a huge stock of J-11B (dark grey radome) serving on combat duty is still using PD + PL-8/12, there is zero purpose for PLAAF to upgrade merely 24 Su-35 of FTTC even if Russia agrees to it.

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## siegecrossbow

Windjammer said:


> Just wondering if there are any twin seat J-10s in the package, else PAF chief will lead the 23rd March flypast either in the Block-52D or Thunder Bravo.
> 
> View attachment 816526



That's actually a very interesting question since it is ideal to have a twin seater jet for training purposes. However, the only twin-seater j-10 is the J-10S, which uses Russian engines. If Pakistan purchases them then that would be one additional engine type and could complicate the maintenance process.

Considering that the JF-17 went almost a decade without a twin seater, I think that Pakistan probably won't acquire them in the near future. However, this raises an interesting possibility for J-10D. What if the J-10D is not just an EW variant with bells and whistles, but also a twin seater? After all, all currently in service EW birds (EA-18, J-16D, J-15D) are twin seaters. Doing so is also economical for Pakistan. They can both be used as trainers for J-10CP and as EW in times of war.

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## Taimoor Khan

graphican said:


> Pakistan is flying JF-17 for 18+ years and they got "battle proven" against India in the highly contested air-skirmish.
> India is flying Rafael for less than 1 year and they got "battle proven" by someone else against someone else. Indians at best heard about this story. That is how much they are related to it.



Jf17 went against adversary which is not only equal in quality but overwhelming in numbers as well. Came out on top and enforced its superiority.

Rafael/Typhoon, when was the last time, or anytime, they were pitted in this equal and highly contested environment? Dropping bombs on rag tag militias in Africa is not really classed a battle proven. 

Gripen, when was the last time, or anytime, was used in anger, ever??


People have weird ideas about "battle proven".

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## PakFactor

Taimoor Khan said:


> Jf17 went against adversary which is not only equal in quality but overwhelming in numbers as well. Came out on top and enforced its superiority.
> 
> Rafael/Typhoon, when was the last time, or anytime, they were pitted in this equal and highly contested environment? Dropping bombs on rag tag militias in Africa is not really classed a battle proven.
> 
> Gripen, when was the last time, or anytime, was used in anger, ever??
> 
> 
> People have weird ideas about "battle proven".



Same with the Dassault Rafale it's not been tested by a peer competitor and neither has its Spectra that's been touted so much, etc.,

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## Khan vilatey

Mashallah, I am so excited that when ever I get 10 minutes between meetings I check this thread. I am so invested that I am reading this thread page by page not letting even a post go by un noticed.

As I said earlier, eagle, signilian and others including myself go back a long , a time when su-30 Mki was considered the raptor of the East and people never thought jf-17 would be more than token aircraft, I remember my relatives being some of the first engineers on super 7, we then had Abatabad and Sallal and now by the grace of Allah we have seen this day aswell. Mashallah May Allah grant Pakistan more happiness 

K

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## Princeps Senatus

HaMoTZeMaS said:


> bhai sahab..
> dont get too emotional.. our pockets are not that deep to afford stealth
> We have been going asymmetric from beginning, so is this time in case india gets hands on F35 class of jets


Pockets are deep enough but no option is open to us currently.


----------



## StormBreaker

Zarvan said:


> Just and wait and watch in next ten to fifteen years you would be hearing news about one weapon system after another. For all three forces several such systems are coming
> 
> 
> Because I am getting news of one system after another but off course I am happy about J-10 C I am just waiting for them to be officially revealed then I would entertain myself by watching Indian media.


Which systems ?

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## Zarvan

StormBreaker said:


> Which systems ?


All kinds of weapon systems. From weapons to EW to other systems will be coming. All three forces are buying lot of weapons and lot more will be bought. Off several types.


----------



## Goenitz

Deino said:


> Seems as if some missed by irony or sarcasm!
> 
> Anyway, what do you think ... did I miss something?
> 
> View attachment 816501


Helmet seems different too.

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## NA71

Khan vilatey said:


> Mashallah, I am so excited that when ever I get 10 minutes between meetings I check this thread. I am so invested that I am reading this thread page by page not letting even a post go by un noticed.
> 
> As I said earlier, eagle, signilian and others including myself go back a long , a time when su-30 Mki was considered the raptor of the East and people never thought jf-17 would be more than token aircraft, I remember my relatives being some of the first engineers on super 7, we then had Abatabad and Sallal and now by the grace of Allah we have seen this day aswell. Mashallah May Allah grant Pakistan more happiness
> 
> K


You are still in meetings..... I skipped two.... For J10 Rola...... 😁

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## Aesterix

PakFactor said:


> Same with the Dassault Rafale it's not been tested by a peer competitor and neither has its Spectra that's been touted so much, etc.,


To them, bombing some mud huts in Afghanistan with a 100 million dollar plane, dropping 2 million a pop munitions, makes both the plane and the weapon.......battle proven .

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## Deino

Goenitz said:


> Helmet seems different too.



Yes, but that's not an aircraft related issue even more since we've seen several different helmets in PLAAF service too

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## Aesterix

Deino said:


> Yes, but that's not an aircraft related issue even more since we've seen several different helmets in PLAAF service too


But HMCS?
That's the question.


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## Deino

Aesterix said:


> But HMCS?
> That's the question.




In fact I don't know it it is one, but at least we know the J-10C is compatible with it

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## maverick1977

Deino said:


> In fact I don't know it it is one, but at least we know the J-10C is compatible with it
> 
> View attachment 816566
> View attachment 816568


what r some of the these antennas on the top and some 2 white colors boxes?


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## Aesterix

Deino said:


> In fact I don't know it it is one, but at least we know the J-10C is compatible with it
> 
> View attachment 816566
> View attachment 816568


I will be surprised if PAF opted out , and didn't have HMCS.
None of PAF inventory has that, not even the F-16D , only have HMD.

In J-10CP the HMCS plus the PL-10 WVR, the missile going straight towards whichever direction they pilot is looking, will make WVR combat too dangerous for the adversary.

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## Aesterix

This induction reminds of the F-16 euphoria from back in 1983, when they first landed in Pakistan and were shown on PTV.
I was in school and within a month F-16 was everywhere. It was on our school bags, our lunch boxes. There were sweets sold with F-16 pictures.
In urdu we called it "Eff solaa". 
In 1990 I sneaked into Masroor base, just to see F-16. Yes it was possible back then, as no suicide bombings and even air bases had relaxed security. 
Then solely for the purpose of flying an Eff solaa, I appeared for PAF tests for pilot, passed everything and failed in final selection at AHQ 😅😅

Here is a pic of the first landing of F-16. There were some American pilots too, which I remember from the original PTV news, but can't find any pics anymore.

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## arslank03

ozranger said:


> I did. The reply obviously came from someone with zero capability of logical thinking. Given that I quoted huge difference in numbers and materials of those T/R modules on those 2 aircrafts in comparison, this low IQ person still argued on spacing within nose and cooling without giving any concrete evidence.
> 
> Remember I was referencing all open source specs in that thread.
> 
> If your brain still cannot cope with that, let me show you the figures again,
> 
> JF-17 Block 3: KLJ-7A, *over 1000 GaN* T/R modules
> Rafale: RBE2-AA *838 GaAs* T/R modules
> 
> *Number of T/R modules: JF-17 Block 3 > Rafale
> 
> Spec of each T/R module (power output vs temperature): JF-17 Block 3 > Rafale*
> 
> Tell me, why would I still need to argue about spacing in the nose or cooling mechanism?
> 
> In a BVR fight Rafale will be shot down straight like a burning bird by JF-17 Block 3.
> 
> I don't need to take low IQ people seriously. I sincerely hope they can stay on their moronic status ever, forever.


where have you pulled out the specs of the modules from- please do share.


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## Trailer23

So, now that we know that the *No. 15 Squadron (Cobras)* are to receive the first batch of the J-10's.

They'll be based at PAF Base Rafiqui as part of Central Air Command.

What about the rest? Where should they be stationed & with which Squadron?

Thoughts...
@araz @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @SQ8 @Windjammer @The Eagle @Desert Fox 1 @GriffinsRule @GumNaam @HRK @iLION12345_1 @NA71 @Path-Finder @Stealth @Yasser76 @ziaulislam

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## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> They'll be based at PAF Base Rafiqui as part of Central Air Command.



Hmm .. are you sure about that? I think No. 15s New home has been mentioned multiple times here on the forum.

Also No. 50 will retain their place at Rafiqui.

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## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> Hmm .. are you sure about that? I think No. 15s New home has been mentioned multiple times here on the forum.
> 
> Also No. 50 will retain their place at Rafiqui.


Message Received.


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## Liquidmetal

Iceman2 said:


> 92 news reported 60 j-10s in total on 3pm bulletin




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494722673624162304

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## ghazi52

Aesterix said:


> Here is a pic of the first landing of F-16. There were some American pilots too, which I remember from the original PTV news, but can't find any pics anymore.
> 
> View attachment 816583



Wish to have this type of photo for J10CP....

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## siegecrossbow

Apparently PAF pilots training in CAC has been an open secret for around a year. They not only sent the pilots but also the pilots' families as well, and have been on massive buying sprees for electronics (phones, tablets, and the like). Locals are well acquainted with them.

If you hold any doubt that J-10CP will perform flyover for the March Parade, you should drop it.

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## Deino

maverick1977 said:


> what r some of the these antennas on the top and some 2 white colors boxes?




The one in front is the WL-9 radio compass ... the boxy one behind I don't know

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Aesterix said:


> Here is a pic of the first landing of F-16. There were some American pilots too, which I remember from the original PTV news, but can't find any pics anymore.
> 
> View attachment 816583


Some more from 15 January 1983.












Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info

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## Beast

Aesterix said:


> This induction reminds of the F-16 euphoria from back in 1983, when they first landed in Pakistan and were shown on PTV.
> I was in school and within a month F-16 was everywhere. It was on our school bags, our lunch boxes. There were sweets sold with F-16 pictures.
> In urdu we called it "Eff solaa".
> In 1990 I sneaked into Masroor base, just to see F-16. Yes it was possible back then, as no suicide bombings and even air bases had relaxed security.
> Then solely for the purpose of flying an Eff solaa, I appeared for PAF tests for pilot, passed everything and failed in final selection at AHQ 😅😅
> 
> Here is a pic of the first landing of F-16. There were some American pilots too, which I remember from the original PTV news, but can't find any pics anymore.
> 
> View attachment 816583


Pakistan is first overseas country to receive F-16. Now Pakistan is first overseas country to received J-10.

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## Taimoor Khan

Aesterix said:


> This induction reminds of the F-16 euphoria from back in 1983, when they first landed in Pakistan and were shown on PTV.
> I was in school and within a month F-16 was everywhere. It was on our school bags, our lunch boxes. There were sweets sold with F-16 pictures.
> In urdu we called it "Eff solaa".
> In 1990 I sneaked into Masroor base, just to see F-16. Yes it was possible back then, as no suicide bombings and even air bases had relaxed security.
> Then solely for the purpose of flying an Eff solaa, I appeared for PAF tests for pilot, passed everything and failed in final selection at AHQ 😅😅
> 
> Here is a pic of the first landing of F-16. There were some American pilots too, which I remember from the original PTV news, but can't find any pics anymore.
> 
> View attachment 816583



Precisely my thoughts.

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## shofotolavski

Foinikas said:


> I said most Chinese jet fighters are copies of Soviet and Russian models.
> 
> The J-10 is rumored to have been inspired by the Lavi. I don't know if that's true or not and I don't care.
> 
> In the hands of the Pakistani Air Force it can be a very good aircraft.
> 
> But don't you tell me that just because Chinese is a superpower,they can make super amazing jet fighters and that France can't. Yes France doesn't have a 5th generation fighter,but the Rafale has features that make it similar to a stealth fighter.
> 
> I mean,France is a big tech power too. You might hate the French like most of the other Pakistanis here,but you must acknowledge that they have been a big name in aviation and military technology too. What are we talking about here? That because the Chinese have made a 5th generation jet fighter,they are superior? Who tells me that it's as good as the F-22 or the F-35? Even the Su-57 didn't sell as much as the Russians wanted.
> 
> 
> But that's the thing,he wasn't shot down. The Indians kept saying they shot down the Pakistani pilots again and again


1. The earliest aircraft in China to use delta wings and canards was the J-9 in 1965. The J-10 has nothing to do with the Israeli aircraft.
2. Indians often say that they defeated the Chinese army once in the 1980s and killed hundreds of people. I have searched through the information and have not found any Indian statement. There is only one record of the Chinese border guards defeating the Indian army.
Only later did I find out that the news about India came from an Indian movie at the time
I've always been curious about which one Indian or Korean is more bragging
3. I can understand the feelings of Pakistani friends who want to build a strong national defense. However, Chinese scholars and Pakistani tax officials communicated that Pakistan’s taxation can only cover a small number of citizens, and many residents of tribal areas never pay national taxes.
Governments cannot provide better security and employment environment and education spending without taxes
Without education, there can be no industrialized population, and the country cannot be strong

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## Beast

redtom said:


> Summarized from multiple relatively reliable sources, China cannot modify SU35, Russia forbids these.
> The SU35 is currently used for fighting games against Vietnamese and American aircraft .


I don't think so. In fact, Russian is more open with such request. In order to win PLAAF Su-35 deal, they are in fact, more accommodating to Chinese request. It is Russian more needing to win Chinese deal than Chinese more willing to buy.

But Chinese dont see worth the effort to reequipped 24 SU-35 with Chinese missile.


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## Foinikas

Aesterix said:


> This induction reminds of the F-16 euphoria from back in 1983, when they first landed in Pakistan and were shown on PTV.
> I was in school and within a month F-16 was everywhere. It was on our school bags, our lunch boxes. There were sweets sold with F-16 pictures.
> In urdu we called it "Eff solaa".
> In 1990 I sneaked into Masroor base, just to see F-16. Yes it was possible back then, as no suicide bombings and even air bases had relaxed security.
> Then solely for the purpose of flying an Eff solaa, I appeared for PAF tests for pilot, passed everything and failed in final selection at AHQ 😅😅
> 
> Here is a pic of the first landing of F-16. There were some American pilots too, which I remember from the original PTV news, but can't find any pics anymore.
> 
> View attachment 816583



I know how you feel. A month ago we got the first 6 Rafale too!

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## Aesterix

Foinikas said:


> I know how you feel. A month ago we got the first 6 Rafale too!


Yup,
It's similar, but not the same. Although we are glad, but unlike Indians we don't claim it to be starship galactica, which can shoot down an entire airforce, in single shot.

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## ghazi52

For sure Pakistan will not do this....








Indian Defence Minister forcefully converts the French Rafale fighter Jet from Christianity to Hinduism​








Indian Defence Minister forcefully converts the Rafale Jet to Hinduism


Indian Defence Minister performed a puja of a Rafale jet by placing lemons under its wheels and coconut on the top, being trolled on social media.




dailytimes.com.pk

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## Shotgunner51

Aesterix said:


> Yup,
> It's similar, but not the same. Although we are glad, but unlike Indians we don't claim it to be starship galactica, which can shoot down an entire airforce, in single shot.


Of course they do, after their first heavy-weight galactica got busted on 227, they need a new galactica to sleep well, a smaller one will do the job

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## araz

baqai said:


> fikar nishta ... we will go to Shershah and get the TYPE-R and NOS sticker
> 
> 
> I was with my late mom (may Allah bless her soul) and we were at this store getting something, can't remember what exactly it was and how much it was for
> 
> Ammi: ye kitnay ka hai
> Shopkeeper: 1000 ka
> Ammi: 75 doon gi
> Me: WTF (trying to look for exit)
> 
> I HATED going shopping with her and now i HATE going shopping with my better half, i am terrible at this lol
> 
> P.S Ammi haggled it down to 200 *rolling my eyes*


Great job. The irony is the dukaan dar still made money!

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## Luosifen

CCTV needs to do a new documentary next time they do joint exercises, this one here needs updating.

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## siegecrossbow

Aesterix said:


> Yup,
> It's similar, but not the same. Although we are glad, but unlike Indians we don't claim it to be starship galactica, which can shoot down an entire airforce, in single shot.



It is battelstar galactica.

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## Falconless

Liquidmetal said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494722673624162304


Bye bye Mirage? Hope some are donated to various aviation museums around the world as soft power projection.

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## iLION12345_1

siegecrossbow said:


> Apparently PAF pilots training in CAC has been an open secret for around a year. They not only sent the pilots but also the pilots' families as well, and have been on massive buying sprees for electronics (phones, tablets, and the like). Locals are well acquainted with them.
> 
> If you hold any doubt that J-10CP will perform flyover for the March Parade, you should drop it.


Definitely, not only for J10s, there’s dozens of Pakistani army, navy and Air Force personnel in china training on future systems. The forces are on quite a buying spree from china after all. 

Reminds me of all the Chinese officers that were in Gujranwala a while back for weapon trials, man they got used to the place fast, they were grocery shopping like locals lol.

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## Aesterix

Gameeso rey malakiya. 
I thought you are Indian.


Foinikas said:


> I know how you feel. A month ago we got the first 6 Rafale too!


----------



## Foinikas

Aesterix said:


> Gameeso rey malakiya.
> I thought you are Indian.


Ahahahahaha it's malaka 😂

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## Vortex

ghazi52 said:


> For sure Pakistan will not do this....
> 
> View attachment 816611
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian Defence Minister forcefully converts the French Rafale fighter Jet from Christianity to Hinduism​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian Defence Minister forcefully converts the Rafale Jet to Hinduism
> 
> 
> Indian Defence Minister performed a puja of a Rafale jet by placing lemons under its wheels and coconut on the top, being trolled on social media.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dailytimes.com.pk




Thank God they didn’t used cow pee…

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## siegecrossbow

Falconless said:


> Bye bye Mirage? Hope some are donated to various aviation museums around the world as soft power projection.



First to go would be the F-7.

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## NA71

Now Indians are on top gear in social media propeganda and disinfo ops against PAF acquisition of J10c..... Three difference Twitter spaces in just one day... Thousands of tweets on J10....

Why they are so concerned if it is an extremely inferior to Rafale...... Just look at one tweeter space just ended

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## Big_bud

NA71 said:


> View attachment 816465









Highlighted in red

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## SIPRA

Vortex said:


> Thank God they didn’t used cow pee…



Cow was not available, I believe.

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## kursed

Taimoor Khan said:


> With all due respect, JF17 dropped their SOWs and pinged Indian military installation during op swift retort. Throughout that episode, they took the brunt of CAPS all over the eastern border, successfully intercepting/locking many Indian top of the line jets.
> 
> On the other hand, European jets like Rafale and Eurofighter , at best, dropped some bombs on rag tags militias in Mali and Libya.
> 
> Who do you think is more "battle proven"?


JF-17s did not only undertake CAPs and sweeping responsibilities during SR but in the 6-8 grueling months of constantly manning stations as well in the aftermath of SR. The bird has more than proven itself.

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## Taimoor Khan

kursed said:


> JF-17s did not only undertook CAPs and Sweeping responsibilities during SR but in the 6-8 grueling months of constantly manning stations as well in the aftermath of SR. The bird has more than proven itself.



Indeed. I have seen footage from pitch dark night missions from FOBs, made by those who were present there for months. It wont be understatement that F16s took a back seat. People forget that even though F16 shot down the IAF jets, the "primary mission" was conducted by JFs and Mirages, which is to ping the Indian military installations. 

Show me one European jet which has this pedigree?

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## shofotolavski

https://user.guancha.cn/main/content?id=696679


53:35
Pakistani pilots arrived in Chengdu at least a few months ago
And there may be many pilots involved in training





【察话会Au】220218施拉基怡袋说说出口的J-10CP和PLZ45A4_哔哩哔哩_bilibili


8点过了，都打了吧？到了拜登预定的日期，俄军没有打乌克兰还溜了，西方又说20号再打，那就走着瞧。我国外贸的歼-10CP给巴基斯坦和PLZ45A4给中东大户，这个得细说；小型的朱姆沃尔特现身，可能只是块石头，那到底是什么呢？封面说明：大董的鸭子小分盘，一人一口鸭。未来大家有什么想听的，还请大家多给施佬留言点菜，我们下回再见！, 视频播放量 73555、弹幕量 717、点赞数 3505、投硬币枚数 832、收藏人数 416、转发人数 57, 视频作者 胡诌施佬, 作者简介...




www.bilibili.com




09:00
Pakistan learned about the performance of the Rafale fighter jet and J-10 during the exercise, but the purchase price of the J-10 is very low, and the purchase price is said to be 50 million RMB
So it may be customized for the performance Pakistan wants to get,

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## siegecrossbow

kursed said:


> JF-17s did not only undertook CAPs and Sweeping responsibilities during SR but in the 6-8 grueling months of constantly manning stations as well in the aftermath of SR. The bird has more than proven itself.











Flying & Fighting in the JF-17 Thunder: Interview with Pakistan Air Force fighter pilot


The JF-17 Thunder is one of the rarest and least known fighter aircraft in the world. Operated solely by the Pakistan Air Force*, it is a capable fighter in the same class as the F-16. On condition…




hushkit.net







> “One mission took place in the days following the Indian Air Force’s attempted strikes in Pakistan border region- at five in the night I took off in rain and low cloud with TS in the vicinity. Clouds were from 4,000 till 33,000 feet. Got out of clouds and controller reported two Su-30s ‘across the fence’. I targeted them at ranges beyond 50-60 NM but didn’t get authorisation to engage from controller, continued to grind above 32,000 flowing hot and cold 20-30NM from fence targeting the Su-30s. *The IAF scrambled a total of six more Su-30s and finally I had eight Su-30s in front. Would turn hot and target each one in sequence from north to south (just spike them seeing whether they get lured in or not). *After hitting texaco (air refuelling) returned to based amid rain and wet runway.. the first thing ground crew did was count the missiles.. gave a disappointed look once all were intact. the same profile continued for a couple of month but that first mission was an unbelievable experience.”

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## Bleek

shofotolavski said:


> https://user.guancha.cn/main/content?id=696679
> 
> 
> 53:35
> Pakistani pilots arrived in Chengdu at least a few months ago
> And there may be many pilots involved in training
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 【察话会Au】220218施拉基怡袋说说出口的J-10CP和PLZ45A4_哔哩哔哩_bilibili
> 
> 
> 8点过了，都打了吧？到了拜登预定的日期，俄军没有打乌克兰还溜了，西方又说20号再打，那就走着瞧。我国外贸的歼-10CP给巴基斯坦和PLZ45A4给中东大户，这个得细说；小型的朱姆沃尔特现身，可能只是块石头，那到底是什么呢？封面说明：大董的鸭子小分盘，一人一口鸭。未来大家有什么想听的，还请大家多给施佬留言点菜，我们下回再见！, 视频播放量 73555、弹幕量 717、点赞数 3505、投硬币枚数 832、收藏人数 416、转发人数 57, 视频作者 胡诌施佬, 作者简介...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bilibili.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 09:00
> Pakistan learned about the performance of the Rafale fighter jet and J-10 during the exercise, but the purchase price of the J-10 is very low, and the purchase price is said to be 50 million RMB
> So it may be customized for the performance Pakistan wants to get,


From where did they learn about the performance? Does it mean what is generally known publicly?


----------



## Vortex

SIPRA said:


> Cow was not available, I believe.


They are plenty of cow in France but… french would have cancelled the contract 😁

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## Luosifen

shofotolavski said:


> https://user.guancha.cn/main/content?id=696679
> 
> 
> 53:35
> Pakistani pilots arrived in Chengdu at least a few months ago
> And there may be many pilots involved in training
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 【察话会Au】220218施拉基怡袋说说出口的J-10CP和PLZ45A4_哔哩哔哩_bilibili
> 
> 
> 8点过了，都打了吧？到了拜登预定的日期，俄军没有打乌克兰还溜了，西方又说20号再打，那就走着瞧。我国外贸的歼-10CP给巴基斯坦和PLZ45A4给中东大户，这个得细说；小型的朱姆沃尔特现身，可能只是块石头，那到底是什么呢？封面说明：大董的鸭子小分盘，一人一口鸭。未来大家有什么想听的，还请大家多给施佬留言点菜，我们下回再见！, 视频播放量 73555、弹幕量 717、点赞数 3505、投硬币枚数 832、收藏人数 416、转发人数 57, 视频作者 胡诌施佬, 作者简介...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bilibili.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 09:00
> Pakistan learned about the performance of the Rafale fighter jet and J-10 during the exercise, but the purchase price of the J-10 is very low, and the purchase price is said to be 50 million RMB
> So it may be customized for the performance Pakistan wants to get,


50 million RMB is $7.9 million USD, are you sure that's right? 😲

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## Aesterix

NA71 said:


> Now Indians are on top gear in social media propeganda and disinfo ops against PAF acquisition of J10c..... Three difference Twitter spaces in just one day... Thousands of tweets on J10....
> 
> Why they are so concerned if it is an extremely inferior to Rafale...... Just look at one tweeter space just ended
> View attachment 816618


Indians ki....
"Fott gaee hay"


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## shofotolavski

Bleek said:


> From where did they learn about the performance? Does it mean what is generally known publicly?


1. The number of Pakistani pilots is based on speculation. Someone filmed a video of family members shopping.
2. The purchase price and configuration are not necessarily accurate according to the analysis of network news, and are for reference only.
Practice is the only criterion for testing truth

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## siegecrossbow

Bleek said:


> From where did they learn about the performance? Does it mean what is generally known publicly?



Every Shaheen Exercise post 2019. PLAAF probably also shared data from Falcon Strike 2019 where it went up against Gripens.

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## shofotolavski

Luosifen said:


> 50 million RMB is $7.9 million USD, are you sure that's right? 😲


I'm not sure because the audio doesn't mention the unit of measure,
Sorry, maybe it's dollars, otherwise the price is too low

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## siegecrossbow

NA71 said:


> Now Indians are on top gear in social media propeganda and disinfo ops against PAF acquisition of J10c..... Three difference Twitter spaces in just one day... Thousands of tweets on J10....
> 
> Why they are so concerned if it is an extremely inferior to Rafale...... Just look at one tweeter space just ended
> View attachment 816618



J-10s are so crappy that the Bhakts are praying for a "J-10 moment" for LCA MKII, which may or may not happen before the death of my (nonexistent as of now) grandson.






MWF-MK2: Has China’s J-10 moment arrived for India – Indian Defence Research Wing







idrw.org

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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> The one in front is the WL-9 radio compass ... the boxy one behind I don't know



SAT

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## Bleek

siegecrossbow said:


> Every Shaheen Exercise post 2019. PLAAF probably also shared data from Falcon Strike 2019 where it went up against Gripens.


I meant the Rafale

This is what he stated



shofotolavski said:


> Pakistan learned about the performance of the Rafale fighter jet and J-10 during the exercise


----------



## The Eagle

NA71 said:


> Now Indians are on top gear in social media propeganda and disinfo ops against PAF acquisition of J10c..... Three difference Twitter spaces in just one day... Thousands of tweets on J10....
> 
> Why they are so concerned if it is an extremely inferior to Rafale...... Just look at one tweeter space just ended
> View attachment 816618



Such are the people responsible to pump up Abhinandan and Avenger 1 and getting shot down. Honestly, I personally see these people doing great service.

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## siegecrossbow

Bleek said:


> I meant the Rafale
> 
> This is what he stated



I don't know the original intent of the poster but my guess would be that he meant them as separate events. Pakistan learned the capabilities of Rafale through exercise with Qatar and the capabilities of J-10C through exercise with PLAAF. JF-17 Block II was used as the yard stick in both exercises.

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## The Eagle

siegecrossbow said:


> Every Shaheen Exercise post 2019. PLAAF probably also shared data from Falcon Strike 2019 where it went up against Gripens.



We are thankful to our Qatari brothers as well for their great share in an exercise held by Turkey last time.

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## Aesterix

siegecrossbow said:


> Flying & Fighting in the JF-17 Thunder: Interview with Pakistan Air Force fighter pilot
> 
> 
> The JF-17 Thunder is one of the rarest and least known fighter aircraft in the world. Operated solely by the Pakistan Air Force*, it is a capable fighter in the same class as the F-16. On condition…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hushkit.net


Thunders performed regular CAPs during the February 2019 Indian escalation. 
There are some factors people don't take into account when asking why F-16 were used as primary air cover for the attack party, instead of JF-17.
Shelf life and captive carrying hours.
PAF F-16 uses AAMRAM AIM-120 , which have been in PAF stores for decades now.
Those missiles have long but not unlimited shelf life and many units are near the end of their usable life and will need expensive refurbishment. 
Shelf life of 10 years and captive carrying hours of 1500 hours.

On the other hand JF-17 are relatively new and their SD-10 have plenty of years of shelf life remaining. But at least the original version had a very low captive carrying hours life of only 500 hours under the aircraft wings, and then a major overhaul. 
I don't know if in the later versions it has improved @Deino, any info?

So from weapons invwntory management point of view, it makes more sense the deplete the older , near the end of life , missiles first, before touching newer , more potent inventory?

May be that's why F-16 with AIM-120 were and still will be flown more than JF-17 with SD-10.

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## Riz

NA71 said:


> Now Indians are on top gear in social media propeganda and disinfo ops against PAF acquisition of J10c..... Three difference Twitter spaces in just one day... Thousands of tweets on J10....
> 
> Why they are so concerned if it is an extremely inferior to Rafale...... Just look at one tweeter space just ended
> View attachment 816618


He wants to write RSS madrasa space

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## The Eagle

siegecrossbow said:


> Pakistan learned the capabilities of Rafale through exercise with Qata



Before that, thanks to French as well for training the pilots from Pakistan and lately explaining the position to Indians to convince them as nothing happened. I am sure you know that episode. @Windjammer had a thread as well.

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## Zarf

The Eagle said:


> Such are the people responsible to pump up Abhinandan and Avenger 1 and getting shot down. Honestly, I personally see these people doing great service.


Governments actually spend money to spread disinformation. Indians do it themselves for us.

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## ziaulislam

Falconless said:


> Bye bye Mirage? Hope some are donated to various aviation museums around the world as soft power projection.


You wish
Lasti heard all fo the mirage v are being moved into tactical squardon
This means at least 2030 these will keep flying

Yes the f7pgs & mirage 3 will go

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## Trailer23

Some kind of article from China, translated to English...

Link

*Pakistan did these 3 things before buying the J-10C! Confirm that it is stronger than the Rafale fighter before placing the order*
2022-02-19


Recently, a J-10C painted with the Pakistan Air Force logo was exposed, and the news quickly became popular on the China-Pakistan network. This shows that the J-10C is about to be exported to Pakistan, and the rumors for many years have finally landed!

As we all know, although the economy is poor, Pakistan is very picky when purchasing equipment. When purchasing expensive equipment such as fighter jets, it is even more thoughtful and shopping around. This is the opposite of neighboring India.

Therefore, Pakistan's final decision to buy the J-10C must be because this equipment can meet its strategic needs!

In fact, Pakistan did 3 things before finally deciding to purchase the J-10C.
*1.* In 2020, Pakistan will test the J-10C and J-11BS through the "China-Pakistan Eagle-2020" military exercise, confirming that the J-10C's stand-alone combat capabilities and system combat capabilities are superior to those of the Xiaolong fighter.

On December 9, 2020 local time in Pakistan, the ninth China-Pakistan "Eagle" joint air military exercise officially kicked off at the Borali Air Force Base in Pakistan. The Pakistani side dispatched JF17 "Fierce Dragon" fighter jets, "Phantom III" fighter jets, J-7P fighter jets and ZDK-03 airborne early warning aircraft. The Chinese side dispatched the AL-31FN version of the J-10C fighter, the J-11BS heavy fighter, the Yun-8 electronic jammer and the "Air Police 500" airborne early warning aircraft.

It can be seen that this exercise includes system confrontation! This shows that Pakistan not only hopes to test the air combat performance of the J-10C through this confrontation, but also hopes to test the combat performance of the J-10C system.

After the exercise, *Omar, an ace pilot of the Pakistan Air Force* who has experience in piloting American F-15 and F-16 fighter jets, spoke highly of the J-10C in an interview with the media!



Omar said: "The J-10C fighter has better acceleration performance and vertical climb ability thanks to its powerful engine. Among all single-engine fighter jets, the vertical climb ability of the J-10C is only inferior to that of the F-16. Better than Mirage 2000 and JF17.

In addition, the J-10C is equipped with a more advanced phased array radar, equipped with the PL-15 air-to-air missile with a longer range, and has a strong over-the-horizon combat capability. Therefore, when facing the J-10C, Omar believes that it must be Defensive maneuvers are started from a long distance, but this will seriously consume the fuel of the fighter and the mental strength of the pilot, and even if the flight is full of energy to survive this stage, the subsequent air combat will be extremely difficult.

The J-10C entering a close-quarters combat state is still very scary, it can circle at an extremely fast rate, and even the F-16 can't keep up with the J-10C's maneuvering at the beginning. Because the instantaneous turning rate of the J-10C is S+ grade, with the helmet sights and large off-axis air-to-air missiles, it can lock the enemy aircraft at a very exaggerated angle. How to ensure that the J-10C is not shot down in the first 30 seconds? A problem for pilots!

There are also many problems with the J-10C, such as the limited BVR (beyond visual range air combat) mounting capability, usually only two BVR missiles can be mounted, which makes it unable to fully exert its BVR combat capability. And the J-10C does not have a conformal fuel tank, so the heavy hanging points on the inside of the wing cannot be released. This aspect is not as good as the F-16 fighter, let alone compared with the F-15.

In addition, the continuous turning ability of the J-10C is not strong. If it can ensure that it will not be shot down by the J-10C 30 seconds before the intersection, its energy decay rate will become faster and faster, and it has to sacrifice height in exchange for enough potential energy. At this time, it is a Excellent chance to kill.

The J-10C still has great potential for improvement. In the future, after changing to a more advanced engine, the J-10C can make up for its shortcomings in range and ammunition capacity. If necessary, a conformal fuel tank can be installed to increase the number of weapon hardpoints. Use this to your full potential! "

What does that mean? Here is a brief summary for you.

In terms of advantages: the acceleration performance of the J-10C is very good, at least not worse than the F-16. In terms of close combat, the instant disk of the J-10C is very good, even worse than the F16. In terms of over-the-horizon air combat, the J-10C has a very powerful over-the-horizon air combat capability with advanced radar, avionics system and air-to-air missiles, surpassing the F-16.

Disadvantages: The J-10C's vertical climb ability and stability are not as good as the F-16. The lack of conformal fuel tanks results in limited over-the-horizon air combat mountability, wasting its powerful over-the-horizon perception capabilities.



The overall evaluation is that compared with the F-16 in the early 30 seconds, the advantage is very large, and the continuous combat capability is not as good as the F-16, but the improvement potential is great.

Through this exercise, Pakistan also found out how much advantage the J-10C has over the J-10C in air combat capability and system combat effectiveness.

Many people disdain the smaller Xiaolong fighter, but this fighter is far from being as harmless as it seems on the surface! According tothe information released by Turkeythe annual "Anatolian Eagle" exercise in2019, theXiaolong fighter performed extremely well in the close-quarters combat project, and successfully locked the American F-15E fighter only 8 minutes after takeoff. , shocked European and American countries.

*2.* In June 2021, Pakistan sent the Xiaolong fighter to Turkey to participate in the "Anatolian Eagle" multinational joint military exercise to find out the actual performance of the French Rafale fighter.

In June 2021, Pakistan sent Xiaolong fighter jets to participate in the "Anatolian Eagle" multinational joint air force exercise, competing on the same stage with F-16 fighter jets, MiG-29 fighter jets and "Rafale" fighter jets. According to a report by the Russian Satellite News Agency on July 16, the "Anatolian Eagle-2021" military exercise held by Turkey has ended. In the battle between the Xiaolong and the Rafale fighter, the Xiaolong shot down all four Rafale fighters of the opponent. , while the 6 Xiaolongs dispatched by their own side lost 2. Such an amazing performance once again shocked the countries. You must know that the Xiaolong fighter is just a light fighter with a maximum take-off weight about half of the French Rafale fighter. I did not expect that the air combat capability would be so powerful.

The four Rafale fighter jets in this exercise were dispatched by Qatar, which belongs to the same Arab camp. The relationship between the two countries is good. Do you think the Pakistani pilots have ever sat in the cockpit to experience the Rafale fighter jets in private? At this time, the Indian Air Force does not know how to feel?

Through this exercise, Pakistan can be considered to find out the actual performance of the French Rafale fighter. By comparison, Pakistan can easily compare the actual air combat performance of the J-10C and the French Rafale fighter. In view of the fact that both the J-10C and Xiaolong fighters are from the hands of my country's Chengfei, if the Xiaolong fighter has stronger air combat capability, the Chinese Air Force has no reason to give up the Xiaolong fighter and equip the J-10C fighter alone. Therefore, we can think that the J-10C has complete air combat capability. It can completely suppress the Xiaolong fighter.

The basic logic is this, the French Rafale air combat strength and the Xiaolong fighter are half a pound, and they can't even beat the Xiaolong fighter in close combat, but the J-10C can completely crush the Xiaolong fighter, so it can be considered that the J-10C air combat capability can completely suppress France. Rafale Fighter!

*3.* Pakistan requires my country to make some improvements to the J-10CP it ordered, and its performance is likely to surpass my country's own version of the J-10C.

Careful netizens will find that the J-10CP exported to Pakistan is not exactly the same as the J-10C for my country's own use.

The first is to replace the engine from the original AL-31FN to the turbofan 10B independently developed by my country. In contrast, the Xiaolong fighter still uses the Russian-made RD-93MA engine, and has not been replaced with my country's imitation micro-modification - Turbofan 13 or Turbofan 13E. This shows that, on the one hand, the reliability of the turbofan 10B is at least equivalent to that of the AL-31FN, and on the other hand, the thrust of the turbofan 10B is greater than that of the AL-31FN, and the production of the turbofan 0B in my country has been greatly improved, so that the J-10C is even more powerful. All single-engine fighters can be replaced in batches.

As mentioned above, the *Pakistani ace pilot Omar* once pointed out that the thrust of the J-10C engine is not large enough, resulting in a rapid decline in the continuous maneuverability, and it is necessary to replace the engine with a higher thrust. Its thrust in order to improve the stability and vertical climb of the J-10CP.

It is understood that the maximum thrust of the AL31FN-M1 used by the J-10C is 132 kN (about 13.5 tons), while the maximum thrust of my country's turbofan 10B reaches 144 kN (about 14.7 tons), which is 12 kN larger than the former!

Secondly, the antenna settings of the J-10CP are different from those of our own version. The electronic warfare radio frequency antennas on both sides of the vertical tail of the J-10CP and the missile approach warning device in the air intake have been retained, but the two data link antennas on the back of the J-10C fighter fuselage have become one by the J-10CP, located in the aircraft. The data link antenna in the middle of the back has been cancelled, and the antenna shape has also changed from the rectangular shape of the J-10C to a knife shape, which is the same as the data link antenna of the Pakistan Air Force's "Fierce Dragon" fighter.

It is estimated that the J-10CP has changed the airborne data link antenna to the Link-16 standard of the Pakistan Air Force to ensure that it can share air situation data with the Pakistani early warning aircraft and even the F-16 fighter. The canceled data link antenna is likely to be my country's "unique hidden weapon", similar to the inter-machine data link of the F-22 fighter jet or the advanced tactical data link antenna of the F-35. This type of data link communication has better confidentiality. It may be used to exchange information with stealth fighters for coordinated operations.

In addition to these two differences, there are no other changes that we can't see from the appearance, but given that Pakistan's past practice is to like customization, it is expected that the J-10CP will have other changes.

Based on this, we can speculate that the one-on-one capability of the J-10CP ordered by Pakistan may even surpass my country's own version of the J-10C! At this moment, we can't help but sweat for the Indian Air Force! In the future, will the Indian Rafale M fighter encounter the J-10CP and be beaten all over the place?

The most frustrating thing for the Indian Air Force is that 36 French Rafale M fighters cost 7.87 billion euros (about 8.9 billion US dollars), while Pakistan's 36 customized J-10CPs cost only 1.5 billion US dollars! That is to say, Pakistan only spent about one-sixth of the price to disintegrate the strategic advantage of the Air Force built by India at a high price!

Finally, I summarize the reasons why Pakistan purchased the customized version of the J-10CP in 10 words: the single-handedness can be strong and the price is cheap.

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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> Some kind of article from China, translated to English...
> 
> Link
> 
> *Pakistan did these 3 things before buying the J-10C! Confirm that it is stronger than the Rafale fighter before placing the order*
> 2022-02-19
> 
> 
> Recently, a J-10C painted with the Pakistan Air Force logo was exposed, and the news quickly became popular on the China-Pakistan network. This shows that the J-10C is about to be exported to Pakistan, and the rumors for many years have finally landed!
> 
> As we all know, although the economy is poor, Pakistan is very picky when purchasing equipment. When purchasing expensive equipment such as fighter jets, it is even more thoughtful and shopping around. This is the opposite of neighboring India.
> 
> Therefore, Pakistan's final decision to buy the J-10C must be because this equipment can meet its strategic needs!
> 
> In fact, Pakistan did 3 things before finally deciding to purchase the J-10C.
> *1.* In 2020, Pakistan will test the J-10C and J-11BS through the "China-Pakistan Eagle-2020" military exercise, confirming that the J-10C's stand-alone combat capabilities and system combat capabilities are superior to those of the Xiaolong fighter.
> 
> On December 9, 2020 local time in Pakistan, the ninth China-Pakistan "Eagle" joint air military exercise officially kicked off at the Borali Air Force Base in Pakistan. The Pakistani side dispatched JF17 "Fierce Dragon" fighter jets, "Phantom III" fighter jets, J-7P fighter jets and ZDK-03 airborne early warning aircraft. The Chinese side dispatched the AL-31FN version of the J-10C fighter, the J-11BS heavy fighter, the Yun-8 electronic jammer and the "Air Police 500" airborne early warning aircraft.
> 
> It can be seen that this exercise includes system confrontation! This shows that Pakistan not only hopes to test the air combat performance of the J-10C through this confrontation, but also hopes to test the combat performance of the J-10C system.
> 
> After the exercise, *Omar, an ace pilot of the Pakistan Air Force* who has experience in piloting American F-15 and F-16 fighter jets, spoke highly of the J-10C in an interview with the media!
> 
> 
> 
> Omar said: "The J-10C fighter has better acceleration performance and vertical climb ability thanks to its powerful engine. Among all single-engine fighter jets, the vertical climb ability of the J-10C is only inferior to that of the F-16. Better than Mirage 2000 and JF17.
> 
> In addition, the J-10C is equipped with a more advanced phased array radar, equipped with the PL-15 air-to-air missile with a longer range, and has a strong over-the-horizon combat capability. Therefore, when facing the J-10C, Omar believes that it must be Defensive maneuvers are started from a long distance, but this will seriously consume the fuel of the fighter and the mental strength of the pilot, and even if the flight is full of energy to survive this stage, the subsequent air combat will be extremely difficult.
> 
> The J-10C entering a close-quarters combat state is still very scary, it can circle at an extremely fast rate, and even the F-16 can't keep up with the J-10C's maneuvering at the beginning. Because the instantaneous turning rate of the J-10C is S+ grade, with the helmet sights and large off-axis air-to-air missiles, it can lock the enemy aircraft at a very exaggerated angle. How to ensure that the J-10C is not shot down in the first 30 seconds? A problem for pilots!
> 
> There are also many problems with the J-10C, such as the limited BVR (beyond visual range air combat) mounting capability, usually only two BVR missiles can be mounted, which makes it unable to fully exert its BVR combat capability. And the J-10C does not have a conformal fuel tank, so the heavy hanging points on the inside of the wing cannot be released. This aspect is not as good as the F-16 fighter, let alone compared with the F-15.
> 
> In addition, the continuous turning ability of the J-10C is not strong. If it can ensure that it will not be shot down by the J-10C 30 seconds before the intersection, its energy decay rate will become faster and faster, and it has to sacrifice height in exchange for enough potential energy. At this time, it is a Excellent chance to kill.
> 
> The J-10C still has great potential for improvement. In the future, after changing to a more advanced engine, the J-10C can make up for its shortcomings in range and ammunition capacity. If necessary, a conformal fuel tank can be installed to increase the number of weapon hardpoints. Use this to your full potential! "
> 
> What does that mean? Here is a brief summary for you.
> 
> In terms of advantages: the acceleration performance of the J-10C is very good, at least not worse than the F-16. In terms of close combat, the instant disk of the J-10C is very good, even worse than the F16. In terms of over-the-horizon air combat, the J-10C has a very powerful over-the-horizon air combat capability with advanced radar, avionics system and air-to-air missiles, surpassing the F-16.
> 
> Disadvantages: The J-10C's vertical climb ability and stability are not as good as the F-16. The lack of conformal fuel tanks results in limited over-the-horizon air combat mountability, wasting its powerful over-the-horizon perception capabilities.
> 
> 
> 
> The overall evaluation is that compared with the F-16 in the early 30 seconds, the advantage is very large, and the continuous combat capability is not as good as the F-16, but the improvement potential is great.
> 
> Through this exercise, Pakistan also found out how much advantage the J-10C has over the J-10C in air combat capability and system combat effectiveness.
> 
> Many people disdain the smaller Xiaolong fighter, but this fighter is far from being as harmless as it seems on the surface! According tothe information released by Turkeythe annual "Anatolian Eagle" exercise in2019, theXiaolong fighter performed extremely well in the close-quarters combat project, and successfully locked the American F-15E fighter only 8 minutes after takeoff. , shocked European and American countries.
> 
> *2.* In June 2021, Pakistan sent the Xiaolong fighter to Turkey to participate in the "Anatolian Eagle" multinational joint military exercise to find out the actual performance of the French Rafale fighter.
> 
> In June 2021, Pakistan sent Xiaolong fighter jets to participate in the "Anatolian Eagle" multinational joint air force exercise, competing on the same stage with F-16 fighter jets, MiG-29 fighter jets and "Rafale" fighter jets. According to a report by the Russian Satellite News Agency on July 16, the "Anatolian Eagle-2021" military exercise held by Turkey has ended. In the battle between the Xiaolong and the Rafale fighter, the Xiaolong shot down all four Rafale fighters of the opponent. , while the 6 Xiaolongs dispatched by their own side lost 2. Such an amazing performance once again shocked the countries. You must know that the Xiaolong fighter is just a light fighter with a maximum take-off weight about half of the French Rafale fighter. I did not expect that the air combat capability would be so powerful.
> 
> The four Rafale fighter jets in this exercise were dispatched by Qatar, which belongs to the same Arab camp. The relationship between the two countries is good. Do you think the Pakistani pilots have ever sat in the cockpit to experience the Rafale fighter jets in private? At this time, the Indian Air Force does not know how to feel?
> 
> Through this exercise, Pakistan can be considered to find out the actual performance of the French Rafale fighter. By comparison, Pakistan can easily compare the actual air combat performance of the J-10C and the French Rafale fighter. In view of the fact that both the J-10C and Xiaolong fighters are from the hands of my country's Chengfei, if the Xiaolong fighter has stronger air combat capability, the Chinese Air Force has no reason to give up the Xiaolong fighter and equip the J-10C fighter alone. Therefore, we can think that the J-10C has complete air combat capability. It can completely suppress the Xiaolong fighter.
> 
> The basic logic is this, the French Rafale air combat strength and the Xiaolong fighter are half a pound, and they can't even beat the Xiaolong fighter in close combat, but the J-10C can completely crush the Xiaolong fighter, so it can be considered that the J-10C air combat capability can completely suppress France. Rafale Fighter!
> 
> *3.* Pakistan requires my country to make some improvements to the J-10CP it ordered, and its performance is likely to surpass my country's own version of the J-10C.
> 
> Careful netizens will find that the J-10CP exported to Pakistan is not exactly the same as the J-10C for my country's own use.
> 
> The first is to replace the engine from the original AL-31FN to the turbofan 10B independently developed by my country. In contrast, the Xiaolong fighter still uses the Russian-made RD-93MA engine, and has not been replaced with my country's imitation micro-modification - Turbofan 13 or Turbofan 13E. This shows that, on the one hand, the reliability of the turbofan 10B is at least equivalent to that of the AL-31FN, and on the other hand, the thrust of the turbofan 10B is greater than that of the AL-31FN, and the production of the turbofan 0B in my country has been greatly improved, so that the J-10C is even more powerful. All single-engine fighters can be replaced in batches.
> 
> As mentioned above, the *Pakistani ace pilot Omar* once pointed out that the thrust of the J-10C engine is not large enough, resulting in a rapid decline in the continuous maneuverability, and it is necessary to replace the engine with a higher thrust. Its thrust in order to improve the stability and vertical climb of the J-10CP.
> 
> It is understood that the maximum thrust of the AL31FN-M1 used by the J-10C is 132 kN (about 13.5 tons), while the maximum thrust of my country's turbofan 10B reaches 144 kN (about 14.7 tons), which is 12 kN larger than the former!
> 
> Secondly, the antenna settings of the J-10CP are different from those of our own version. The electronic warfare radio frequency antennas on both sides of the vertical tail of the J-10CP and the missile approach warning device in the air intake have been retained, but the two data link antennas on the back of the J-10C fighter fuselage have become one by the J-10CP, located in the aircraft. The data link antenna in the middle of the back has been cancelled, and the antenna shape has also changed from the rectangular shape of the J-10C to a knife shape, which is the same as the data link antenna of the Pakistan Air Force's "Fierce Dragon" fighter.
> 
> It is estimated that the J-10CP has changed the airborne data link antenna to the Link-16 standard of the Pakistan Air Force to ensure that it can share air situation data with the Pakistani early warning aircraft and even the F-16 fighter. The canceled data link antenna is likely to be my country's "unique hidden weapon", similar to the inter-machine data link of the F-22 fighter jet or the advanced tactical data link antenna of the F-35. This type of data link communication has better confidentiality. It may be used to exchange information with stealth fighters for coordinated operations.
> 
> In addition to these two differences, there are no other changes that we can't see from the appearance, but given that Pakistan's past practice is to like customization, it is expected that the J-10CP will have other changes.
> 
> Based on this, we can speculate that the one-on-one capability of the J-10CP ordered by Pakistan may even surpass my country's own version of the J-10C! At this moment, we can't help but sweat for the Indian Air Force! In the future, will the Indian Rafale M fighter encounter the J-10CP and be beaten all over the place?
> 
> The most frustrating thing for the Indian Air Force is that 36 French Rafale M fighters cost 7.87 billion euros (about 8.9 billion US dollars), while Pakistan's 36 customized J-10CPs cost only 1.5 billion US dollars! That is to say, Pakistan only spent about one-sixth of the price to disintegrate the strategic advantage of the Air Force built by India at a high price!
> 
> Finally, I summarize the reasons why Pakistan purchased the customized version of the J-10CP in 10 words: the single-handedness can be strong and the price is cheap.


Omar is an ace, who flew F-15s and F-16s from a country that is poor yet picky with fighter jets. Some of that translation has humour to it.

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## The Eagle

Raider 21 said:


> Omar is an ace, who flew F-15s and F-16s from a country that is poor yet picky with fighter jets.



Lost in translation. It would have been mentioned like smart induction or quality edge. PAF doesn't just buy something but wants beat bang for the buck given the economic constraints.

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## Trailer23

Raider 21 said:


> Omar is an ace, who flew F-15s and F-16s from a country that is poor yet picky with fighter jets. Some of that translation has humour to it.


Which is why I mentioned 'Translated'.

Anyways, it was an interesting read 'cause we got a chance to get views of our own Pilots on the exercise - something that's commonly excluded from our end.

I do wonder, all this custom job PAF has done on the J-10C - what has it cost us from the basic variant of the J-10E (export variant)?

I ask because its not just about choosing a Radar, but there seem to be a number of components in the exterior that appear clear as day different to the J-10C. Who is to know what other sensors & more importantly what type of EW Suite has been installed.

Sincerely wish there was a Dual-Seater variant of this jet from a WSO.

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## siegecrossbow

The Omar pilot thing was a B.S. story concocted on Chinese internet. Don't take it seriously.

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## Aesterix

Trailer23 said:


> Which is why I mentioned 'Translated'.
> 
> Anyways, it was an interesting read 'cause we got a chance to get views of our own Pilots on the exercise - something that's commonly excluded from our end.
> 
> I do wonder, all this custom job PAF has done on the J-10C - what has it cost us from the basic variant of the J-10E (export variant)?
> 
> I ask because its not just about choosing a Radar, but there seem to be a number of components in the exterior that appear clear as day different to the J-10C. Who is to know what other sensors & more importantly what type of EW Suite has been installed.
> 
> Sincerely wish there was a Dual-Seater variant of this jet from a WSO.


So the article pretty much confirmed that Pakistan integrated own data link and at least some components of own EW system.


siegecrossbow said:


> The Omar pilot thing was a B.S. story concocted on Chinese internet. Don't take it seriously.


Some comments from some Pakistani pilots may have been made during joint exercises. It's not out of the realms of possibility. 
The name may not be accurate.

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## The Terminator

SIPRA said:


> Cow was not available, I believe.


French are historically known for their cow country 😜

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## spectregunship

Aesterix said:


> This induction reminds of the F-16 euphoria from back in 1983, when they first landed in Pakistan and were shown on PTV.
> I was in school and within a month F-16 was everywhere. It was on our school bags, our lunch boxes. There were sweets sold with F-16 pictures.
> In urdu we called it "Eff solaa".
> In 1990 I sneaked into Masroor base, just to see F-16. Yes it was possible back then, as no suicide bombings and even air bases had relaxed security.
> Then solely for the purpose of flying an Eff solaa, I appeared for PAF tests for pilot, passed everything and failed in final selection at AHQ 😅😅
> 
> Here is a pic of the first landing of F-16. There were some American pilots too, which I remember from the original PTV news, but can't find any pics anymore.
> 
> View attachment 816583


The dashing AM Shahid Latif


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## The Terminator

Bleek said:


> From where did they learn about the performance? Does it mean what is generally known publicly?


Qatar 😜

Both Turkey and Pakistan extensively tested the Rafales and pitched them against their own platforms in simulated combats

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## MH.Yang

The Terminator said:


> French are historically known for their cow country 😜



France? 
I heard that the French are famous in history for their multifunctional flag. 

When the emperor came, they used the left side of the national flag. 
When the revolution came, they used the right side of the national flag. 
When the Germans came, they used the middle of the flag.

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## Vortex

The Terminator said:


> French are historically known for their cow country 😜





Lol i don’t cow if they au are known for their cow or not but I cow for sure they are for their cheese 😝




MH.Yang said:


> France?
> I heard that the French are famous in history for their multifunctional flag.
> 
> When the emperor came, they used the left side of the national flag.
> When the revolution came, they used the right side of the national flag.
> When the Germans came, they used the middle of the flag.
> 
> View attachment 816672




Lol good catch 😃

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## maverick1977

siegecrossbow said:


> It is battelstar galactica.



No its an imperial star destroyer lol 😂

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## Thorough Pro

For GOD's sake grow up.




Zarvan said:


> All kinds of weapon systems. From weapons to EW to other systems will be coming. All three forces are buying lot of weapons and lot more will be bought. Off several types.

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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> For GOD's sake grow up.


Stop wasting my time and right now focus on J-10 C in this thread. Few members problem is even if get some big thing they sill will be raising questions so not going to waste my time any more. J-10 C has arrived celebrate that.

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## Aesterix

Zarvan said:


> Stop wasting my time and right now focus on J-10 C in this thread. Few members problem is even if get some big thing they sill will be raising questions so not going to waste my time any more. J-10 C has arrived celebrate that.


Pai jii.
Koiپھوٹو موٹو؟
Can you get pics of the birds?

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## Zarvan

Aesterix said:


> Pai jii.
> Koiپھوٹو موٹو؟
> Can you get pics of the birds?


Pics will start getting leaked soon


----------



## Thorough Pro

So what is coming from the west?
any hint on any one of the "lots of items" coming?




Zarvan said:


> Stop wasting my time and right now focus on J-10 C in this thread. Few members problem is even if get some big thing they sill will be raising questions so not going to waste my time any more. J-10 C has arrived celebrate that.

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## Raja Porus

Trailer23 said:


> There are also many problems with the J-10C, such as the limited BVR (beyond visual range air combat) mounting capability, usually only* two BVR* missiles can be mounted, which makes it unable to fully exert its BVR combat capability





Trailer23 said:


> The lack of conformal fuel tanks results in limited over-the-horizon air combat mountability, wasting its powerful over-the-horizon perception capabilities


Can anyone shed light on this.


----------



## redtom

Beast said:


> I don't think so. In fact, Russian is more open with such request. In order to win PLAAF Su-35 deal, they are in fact, more accommodating to Chinese request. It is Russian more needing to win Chinese deal than Chinese more willing to buy.
> 
> But Chinese dont see worth the effort to reequipped 24 SU-35 with Chinese missile.


No, they are only open to Indians. Russia has previously kept its distance from China. The su35 was negotiated around 2010. Only after the Crimea incident did Russia fully cooperate with China. But China already has J16, J20, J10C. There is no value in modifying a new version based on the SU35 at this point.

What Russia should really think about is launching a foreign trade fighter with China, based on the MiG 29 or SU35. Otherwise Russia's current products have no advantage against F16V and Rafale.The 4.5 generation fighter still has a huge market for decades. Russia also has a large number of regular customers. It is not appropriate for China to develop new models specially for foreign trade at this time.

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## Riz

Thorough Pro said:


> So what is coming from the west?
> any hint on any one of the "lots of items" coming?


Items = sohni buchian

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## Bossman

An induction ceremony for both J10 and B3 is possible on the Feb. 27th.

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## ziaulislam

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Can anyone shed light on this.


The routine sortie that chinese use are 4 NVR with no fuelt tanks

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## MastanKhan

PakAlp said:


> I remember your posts and you were always a knowlegeble mature person, but think about it from their point of view, we are a poor nation and it was unimaginable that Pakistan would be able to buy latest tech planes or even that China will be able to achieve what it has done. PDF is a platform where people share their opinions and its a good thing to have difference of opinions and points.
> Even today its unbelievable what we have achieved, back in 2002 we had 6 used frigates but today we have brand new latest technology planes, subs, ships, missiles. InshaAllah our economy, education and security will also be world class.
> 
> 
> 
> J20 will be around 20 years old tech by 2030s and China will be preparing to induct next generation AI planes. China is already incorporating many 6th generation technologies on to the J20s so its definitely likely Pakistan will have the J20s, J35s and Tfx available.



Hi,

Israel was poorer than us in the late 60's and yet it signed a major major weapons deal with the US---.

You need to read up on Golda Meir and find out what made her do that.

Pakistan otoh had no such restraints---its geography provided it extreme leverage over the chinese and gcc---.

You are a smart man---you can understand what I am saying.



Goenitz said:


> I don't know the rest but I evidently remember you pushing for J8II, especially for PN.



JH7A's for PN

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## ahtan_china



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## MastanKhan

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Their hate of each other brings them closer.
> Americans ( Evangelical Christians ) hate Jews more then anyone alive. But they have common interests. Evangelical Christians believe the Jews will build third temple and then Christians will destroy Jews in a final battle in the holy lands. Jews believe they will destroy Christians in the final battle. It is for this reason USA (biggest place of evangelical Christians with their strongest lobby there) arms israel to the teeth because it is in their interests for Israel to build the third temple, but the third temple is where Masjid Al Aqsa is present so building it would mean demolishing the third holiest site in Islam which would invite a response from the whole Ummah.
> This is why usa continues to arm and support Israel and also why they accepted Al Quds as their capital.
> The more they hate each other the closer they get. Zionist rabbis openly say evangelical Christians are bigger Zionists then Zionists Jews for this reason.
> 
> Whatever Pakistan does, how best it talks, it can never make usa treat it how it treats Israel. The way to get American support is to win over evangelical lobby which only jews can do.



Hi,

Well evangelists want to turn over the jews to their form of christianity---.

But still---pakistan could had done a way better job.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Would Retd Air Marshal Latif ever get the credit for the changes he recommended for the J10's---who knows but PAK should be proud that we have committed men like him in our ranks---retired though.

It was extremely stupid of the US ambassador to threaten him---and guess what happened---.

The JF17 came about---the J10 got modified which brought its capabilities to any 4.5 gen aircraft of the western world---and ultimately would be flying in the Pakistani colors---which the americans never estimated.

Otoh---the JF17 would go 2 notches above its original form and the 3rd BLK would be brining in a lots of attention towards it from all the world air forces---.

Bottomline---the US policy towards pakistan failed miserably and there is one man that we need to bow down to---Retd AM Latif---.

Something very interesting that I read today that the Gripen aircrafts sales is suffering due to american defense industry's sabotage.

What is it---Finland went for the F-35 and not the Gripen and the Swedes are unhappy at the Finns---.

So sad---swedes hurting so much---. But they deserve every bit of it---. They had the chance to sell it to the most effective air force that would have projected this aircraft beyond their wildest imagination The PAF---.

How stupid a nation could be of not selling its finest aircraft to the Paf---. I would say Sweden---. What a bunch of morons---. I guess GREED got the best of them---fell for that age old indian trick---.

Technically what has happened here with the Paf is beyond americas wildest imagination---.

How stupid the americans are---other than being great salesmen---the COVID crisis made me a believer that the americans have brains to the level of idiots---an imbecile would be more intelligent than protecting himself than the american.

If this nation did not have the resources it has and the weapons it has---and lived far away from the rest pf the world---I would say---it would not exist as it does .

AM Latif has bitten the US hard---bitten so hard that he has chopped off one of its limbs---a limb called pakistan---.

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## cssniper

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Can anyone shed light on this.








Dual-rack.

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## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Would Retd Air Marshal Latif ever get the credit for the changes he recommended for the J10's---who knows but PAK should be proud that we have committed men like him in our ranks---retired though.
> 
> It was extremely stupid of the US ambassador to threaten him---and guess what happened---.
> 
> The JF17 came about---the J10 got modified which brought its capabilities to any 4.5 gen aircraft of the western world---and ultimately would be flying in the Pakistani colors---which the americans never estimated.
> 
> Otoh---the JF17 would go 2 notches above its original form and the 3rd BLK would be brining in a lots of attention towards it from all the world air forces---.
> 
> Bottomline---the US policy towards pakistan failed miserably and there is one man that we need to bow down to---Retd AM Latif---.
> 
> Something very interesting that I read today that the Gripen aircrafts sales is suffering due to american defense industry's sabotage.
> 
> What is it---Finland went for the F-35 and not the Gripen and the Swedes are unhappy at the Finns---.
> 
> So sad---swedes hurting so much---. But they deserve every bit of it---. They had the chance to sell it to the most effective air force that would have projected this aircraft beyond their wildest imagination The PAF---.
> 
> How stupid a nation could be of not selling its finest aircraft to the Paf---. I would say Sweden---. What a bunch of morons---. I guess GREED got the best of them---fell for that age old indian trick---.
> 
> Technically what has happened here with the Paf is beyond americas wildest imagination---.
> 
> How stupid the americans are---other than being great salesmen---the COVID crisis made me a believer that the americans have brains to the level of idiots---an imbecile would be more intelligent than protecting himself than the american.
> 
> If this nation did not have the resources it has and the weapons it has---and lived far away from the rest pf the world---I would say---it would not exist as it does .
> 
> AM Latif has bitten the US hard---bitten so hard that he has chopped off one of its limbs---a limb called pakistan---.


After reading this, I get a feeling that PAF ought to demand money for flying others' aircraft as a marketing fee. Every few years we could be making an aircraft type as combat proven against IAF. Good practice & great marketing.

Oh wait... we did get a very hefty discount on J-10CP. So maybe that is some of the marketing fee right there?

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## MastanKhan

Chak Bamu said:


> After reading this, I get a feeling that PAF ought to demand money for flying others' aircraft as a marketing fee. Every few years we could be making an aircraft type as combat proven against IAF. Good practice & great marketing.
> 
> *Oh wait... we did get a very hefty discount on J-10CP. So maybe that is some of the marketing fee right there?*



Hi,

Obviously---who would you give your best running shoes to---Usain Bolt off course. Who is a better buyer to project your product---the Paf or the Iaf.

Indeed gripen is a fine fine aircraft and gripen NG at that---the best amongst the very best---an aircraft that saw its development start somewhere in the 80's and with all the technology and funds behind it---is going to play second fiddle to an aircraft that started in 2002-03 with about 450 million dollar budget---. An aircraft that did not even have a designated engine in the early stages of its development and a dedicated EW system when the aircraft was ready.

Hefty discount---!!!

The word FREE would better describe the deal---we can also say---as free as it can be---.

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## Deino

redtom said:


> Summarized from multiple relatively reliable sources, China cannot modify SU35, Russia forbids these.
> The SU35 is currently used for fighting games against Vietnamese and American aircraft .




Nope, they are currently not used to simulate US or VAF aircraft, but are mainly used for long range escorts of the H-6K bombers. As such they are not like some claim and in fact I expected assigned to the FTTB, but a regular Air Brigade, namely the 6th AB at Suixi, STC. 









Big_bud said:


> View attachment 816620
> 
> 
> Highlighted in red




This is the regular MAWS S740 sensor, the PLAAF bird have that too

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## MuslimRAJPUT

I wanted to ask something off topic from any mod reading this. Is there any dedicated thread where we can see or read about the military hardware being made by Pakistan, or being developed jointly with other countries? Would love to see our indigenous tech on a single thread.


----------



## Goritoes

SQ8 said:


> Issi mitti ki paidawar hain - zindagi guzri hai inhi galiyon mein.


Pakistani Pakistan se jata hai, lakin us ke ander ka Pakistani kabhi nai jata

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## M.AsfandYar

MuslimRAJPUT said:


> I wanted to ask something off topic from any mod reading this. Is there any dedicated thread where we can see or read about the military hardware being made by Pakistan, or being developed jointly with other countries? Would love to see our indigenous tech on a single thread.


Mutlitudes

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## iLION12345_1

siegecrossbow said:


> First to go would be the F-7.


The JF-17 block 3s are replacing the remaining 48 F7PGs. The J-10C induction might lead to some of the older non upgraded mirages being retired, but definitely not all or even most of them.

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## Mentee

cssniper said:


> View attachment 816714
> 
> 
> Dual-rack.



@Deino this one real ? I believe it's the A version .


----------



## Goritoes

Mentee said:


> @Deino this one real ? I believe it's the A version .
> 
> View attachment 816732


Doesn't look real to me..

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## Deino

Mentee said:


> @Deino this one real ? I believe it's the A version .
> 
> View attachment 816732




And old faked CG

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## Beast

Mentee said:


> @Deino this one real ? I believe it's the A version .
> 
> View attachment 816732


The 4 pylons on the fuselage can actually carry small PGM or 280kg bomb each.

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## cssniper

Hope there will be some official photos when 27 Feb comes. 🤣


----------



## Nomad40

Trailer23 said:


> So, now that we know that the *No. 15 Squadron (Cobras)* are to receive the first batch of the J-10's.
> 
> They'll be based at PAF Base Rafiqui as part of Central Air Command.
> 
> What about the rest? Where should they be stationed & with which Squadron?
> 
> Thoughts...
> @araz @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @SQ8 @Windjammer @The Eagle @Desert Fox 1 @GriffinsRule @GumNaam @HRK @iLION12345_1 @NA71 @Path-Finder @Stealth @Yasser76 @ziaulislam


Negative, SAC will be doing the honors.

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## Talon

ghazi52 said:


> For sure Pakistan will not do this....
> 
> View attachment 816611
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian Defence Minister forcefully converts the French Rafale fighter Jet from Christianity to Hinduism​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian Defence Minister forcefully converts the Rafale Jet to Hinduism
> 
> 
> Indian Defence Minister performed a puja of a Rafale jet by placing lemons under its wheels and coconut on the top, being trolled on social media.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dailytimes.com.pk


PIA hoti to KALA BAKRA halal krti

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## Genghis khan1

MastanKhan said:


> How stupid the americans are---other than being great salesmen---the COVID crisis made me a believer that the americans have brains to the level of idiots---an imbecile would be more intelligent than protecting himself than the american.


What I have observed so far over 2 decades
and noticed how things are at work in US. Everything is dumb down. People are stupid relative to other nations. I wondered, what is keeping this system successful. US army is known for enlisting window licking retards, still they are able to train and win wars. People from all over the world are coming here and making fortunes. One reason I can tell is, There is no such thing as stupid idea in US. No barrier for those that are brave enough to test new ideas.

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## Falcon26

MuslimRAJPUT said:


> I wanted to ask something off topic from any mod reading this. Is there any dedicated thread where we can see or read about the military hardware being made by Pakistan, or being developed jointly with other countries? Would love to see our indigenous tech on a single thread.



Please see the following sub-forum devoted to Pakistan’s military industrial complex.






Pakistan Defence & Industry


A dedicated forum to discuss the emerging defence industry of Pakistan and military technologies of Pakistan. And other general defence topics that dont fall into the other categories. (No International Topics!)



defence.pk

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## Goenitz

MastanKhan said:


> JH7A's for PN


My bad.. I knew it had 7 in it, and I remembered the pics. But when I googled J7, it was F7. Forgot it also had 'H' in it. So said J8-- .

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Would Retd Air Marshal Latif ever get the credit for the changes he recommended for the J10's---who knows but PAK should be proud that we have committed men like him in our ranks---retired though.
> 
> It was extremely stupid of the US ambassador to threaten him---and guess what happened---.
> 
> The JF17 came about---the J10 got modified which brought its capabilities to any 4.5 gen aircraft of the western world---and ultimately would be flying in the Pakistani colors---which the americans never estimated.
> 
> Otoh---the JF17 would go 2 notches above its original form and the 3rd BLK would be brining in a lots of attention towards it from all the world air forces---.
> 
> Bottomline---the US policy towards pakistan failed miserably and there is one man that we need to bow down to---Retd AM Latif---.
> 
> Something very interesting that I read today that the Gripen aircrafts sales is suffering due to american defense industry's sabotage.
> 
> What is it---Finland went for the F-35 and not the Gripen and the Swedes are unhappy at the Finns---.
> 
> So sad---swedes hurting so much---. But they deserve every bit of it---. They had the chance to sell it to the most effective air force that would have projected this aircraft beyond their wildest imagination The PAF---.
> 
> How stupid a nation could be of not selling its finest aircraft to the Paf---. I would say Sweden---. What a bunch of morons---. I guess GREED got the best of them---fell for that age old indian trick---.
> 
> Technically what has happened here with the Paf is beyond americas wildest imagination---.
> 
> How stupid the americans are---other than being great salesmen---the COVID crisis made me a believer that the americans have brains to the level of idiots---an imbecile would be more intelligent than protecting himself than the american.
> 
> If this nation did not have the resources it has and the weapons it has---and lived far away from the rest pf the world---I would say---it would not exist as it does .
> 
> AM Latif has bitten the US hard---bitten so hard that he has chopped off one of its limbs---a limb called pakistan---.


Mastan,

Are you aware of the Viggen deal and followed by an initial evaluation of sending 2 PAF pilots to evaluate the Gripen in the early 1990s? Just asking out of curiosity



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Israel was poorer than us in the late 60's and yet it signed a major major weapons deal with the US---.
> 
> You need to read up on Golda Meir and find out what made her do that.
> 
> Pakistan otoh had no such restraints---its geography provided it extreme leverage over the chinese and gcc---.
> 
> You are a smart man---you can understand what I am saying.
> 
> 
> 
> JH7A's for PN


The Israelis have had embargoes from both the US and France back in the day. That's what pushed them to have their own aerospace and defence firms

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## Zarvan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Israel was poorer than us in the late 60's and yet it signed a major major weapons deal with the US---.
> 
> You need to read up on Golda Meir and find out what made her do that.
> 
> Pakistan otoh had no such restraints---its geography provided it extreme leverage over the chinese and gcc---.
> 
> You are a smart man---you can understand what I am saying.
> 
> 
> 
> JH7A's for PN


When ever Navy decides to have its own two squadrons for Naval Strike Role it should be twin engine beasts like J-16 or similar.



Thorough Pro said:


> So what is coming from the west?
> any hint on any one of the "lots of items" coming?


I am seriously not interested in getting picked up. But weapons are coming from both west and and east. You would hear news of several weapons in next few months and years. They would be from all over the world. From small weapons to big ones. HQ9, SH 15, J-10 C, JF -17 BLOCK III, Z-10 ME were just starters. If I tell you now they take time you would make fun of me so just celebrate J-10 C I won't debate further INSHALLAH the news which would be coming would prove me right. So just celebrate J-10 C and SH 15 and Z-10 ME for now.



Beast said:


> The 4 pylons on the fuselage can actually carry small PGM or 280kg bomb each.


Can all 11 hard points be equipped at the same time ?

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## NA71

Thorough Pro said:


> For GOD's sake grow up.


Bhai ko aur kitna Bara hona hy..... 😁

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## Basel

Zarvan said:


> Yes this is the tweet which I am referring to.
> 
> But he is referring to something and it's not Air Defence system. It's offensive beast and in all probability a fighter jet



DF-17's Pakistani version or a Hypersonic Cruise Missile??


----------



## Zarvan

Basel said:


> DF-17's Pakistani version or a Hypersonic Cruise Missile??


Two things you are mentioned are being worked upon. But I am pretty sure Tipu was referring to a fighter jet. Hypersonic and Supersonic cruise missiles are being worked upon. Super Sonic according to rumors is near competition and will be revealed soon.

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## Basel

Zarvan said:


> Two things you are mentioned are being worked upon. But I am pretty sure Tipu was referring to a fighter jet. Hypersonic and Supersonic cruise missiles are being worked upon. Super Sonic according to rumors is near competition and will be revealed soon.



Then China may be transferring Su-35 to Pakistan for primarily maritime strike role and secondary other roles.


----------



## Beast

Raider 21 said:


> Mastan,
> 
> Are you aware of the Viggen deal and followed by an initial evaluation of sending 2 PAF pilots to evaluate the Gripen in the early 1990s? Just asking out of curiosity
> 
> 
> The Israelis have had embargoes from both the US and France back in the day. That's what pushed them to have their own aerospace and defence firms


The American never have embargo on Israel. One important factor Israel going domestic is they have more control over design of the weapon that fits their doctrine. They can make changes to the domestic weapon compare to foreign import weapon.


----------



## Trailer23

*Guys, this video is for our good friends (for obvious reasons).*





@帅的一匹 @Beast @MH.Yang @redtom @Shotgunner51 @siegecrossbow @vi-va @Polestar 2 @IblinI @serenity & @Deino* [knowing he has his links of explaining the content]*

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## Windjammer

A close up of the business end of a J-10C. Notice the Chin hardpoint.

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## Raider 21

Beast said:


> The American never have embargo on Israel. One important factor Israel going domestic is they have more control over design of the weapon that fits their doctrine. They can make changes to the domestic weapon compare to foreign import weapon.











U.S. LIFTS EMBARGO ON SALE OF 75 F-16 FIGHTERS TO ISRAEL (Published 1983)







www.nytimes.com





Above was just one of them. And I agree with your post. Israelis have worked hard.


----------



## Bilal.

Trailer23 said:


> *Guys, this video is for our good friends (for obvious reasons).*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @帅的一匹 @Beast @MH.Yang @redtom @Shotgunner51 @siegecrossbow @vi-va @Polestar 2 @IblinI @serenity & @Deino* [knowing he has his links of explaining the content]*


No sub title?

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## The Eagle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Would Retd Air Marshal Latif ever get the credit for the changes he recommended for the J10's---who knows but PAK should be proud that we have committed men like him in our ranks---retired though.
> 
> It was extremely stupid of the US ambassador to threaten him---and guess what happened---.
> 
> The JF17 came about---the J10 got modified which brought its capabilities to any 4.5 gen aircraft of the western world---and ultimately would be flying in the Pakistani colors---which the americans never estimated.
> 
> Otoh---the JF17 would go 2 notches above its original form and the 3rd BLK would be brining in a lots of attention towards it from all the world air forces---.
> 
> Bottomline---the US policy towards pakistan failed miserably and there is one man that we need to bow down to---Retd AM Latif---.
> 
> Something very interesting that I read today that the Gripen aircrafts sales is suffering due to american defense industry's sabotage.
> 
> What is it---Finland went for the F-35 and not the Gripen and the Swedes are unhappy at the Finns---.
> 
> So sad---swedes hurting so much---. But they deserve every bit of it---. They had the chance to sell it to the most effective air force that would have projected this aircraft beyond their wildest imagination The PAF---.
> 
> How stupid a nation could be of not selling its finest aircraft to the Paf---. I would say Sweden---. What a bunch of morons---. I guess GREED got the best of them---fell for that age old indian trick---.
> 
> Technically what has happened here with the Paf is beyond americas wildest imagination---.
> 
> How stupid the americans are---other than being great salesmen---the COVID crisis made me a believer that the americans have brains to the level of idiots---an imbecile would be more intelligent than protecting himself than the american.
> 
> If this nation did not have the resources it has and the weapons it has---and lived far away from the rest pf the world---I would say---it would not exist as it does .
> 
> AM Latif has bitten the US hard---bitten so hard that he has chopped off one of its limbs---a limb called pakistan---.



On this post, I mean for this very post of yours; keep my words with you and I wish that you and everyone else may live longer (In'Sha'ALLAH) when it becomes true while we will be celebrating right here. 

PAC has tasted the blood of own hunt. Own product. The next thing is going to send shockwaves. A shock that might risk a huge backlash like back in 90s but, thanks to American influence & attempts of sabotage that it will be no longer relevant or matter at all. Pakistan is going to fly high and higher. Something to be called our own competing in the league close to stealth.

PN has their own advancement/plans into many areas and Pakistan Tri Services are going full NATO or above standard capabilities.... Air, Sea & Land. Indeed, it may sound too much of boasting but here, the capability does not mean billions & billions being spent. Pakistan is doing it way above than the capacity and in much better ways to be treated a modern force.

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## Windjammer

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Would Retd Air Marshal Latif ever get the credit for the changes he recommended for the J10's---who knows but PAK should be proud that we have committed men like him in our ranks---retired though.
> 
> It was extremely stupid of the US ambassador to threaten him---and guess what happened---.
> 
> The JF17 came about---the J10 got modified which brought its capabilities to any 4.5 gen aircraft of the western world---and ultimately would be flying in the Pakistani colors---which the americans never estimated.
> 
> Otoh---the JF17 would go 2 notches above its original form and the 3rd BLK would be brining in a lots of attention towards it from all the world air forces---.
> 
> Bottomline---the US policy towards pakistan failed miserably and there is one man that we need to bow down to---Retd AM Latif---.
> 
> Something very interesting that I read today that the Gripen aircrafts sales is suffering due to american defense industry's sabotage.
> 
> What is it---Finland went for the F-35 and not the Gripen and the Swedes are unhappy at the Finns---.
> 
> So sad---swedes hurting so much---. But they deserve every bit of it---. They had the chance to sell it to the most effective air force that would have projected this aircraft beyond their wildest imagination The PAF---.
> 
> How stupid a nation could be of not selling its finest aircraft to the Paf---. I would say Sweden---. What a bunch of morons---. I guess GREED got the best of them---fell for that age old indian trick---.
> 
> Technically what has happened here with the Paf is beyond americas wildest imagination---.
> 
> How stupid the americans are---other than being great salesmen---the COVID crisis made me a believer that the americans have brains to the level of idiots---an imbecile would be more intelligent than protecting himself than the american.
> 
> If this nation did not have the resources it has and the weapons it has---and lived far away from the rest pf the world---I would say---it would not exist as it does .
> 
> AM Latif has bitten the US hard---bitten so hard that he has chopped off one of its limbs---a limb called pakistan---.


Thank you for that positive input, the whole irony is that it was the retired AVM Shahid Lateef who went to evaluate the Gripen..... however my understanding is that it was the PAF which dropped the Gripen purchase as the aircraft incorporated many American gadgets thus making it vulnerable to any US sanctions.

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## MuslimRAJPUT

The Eagle said:


> On this post, I mean for this very post of yours; keep my words with you and I wish that you and everyone else may live longer (In'Sha'ALLAH) when it becomes true while we will be celebrating right here.
> 
> PAC has tasted the blood of own hunt. Own product. The next thing is going to send shockwaves. A shock that might risk a huge backlash like back in 90s but, thanks to American influence & attempts of sabotage that it will be no longer relevant or matter at all. Pakistan is going to fly high and higher. Something to be called our own competing in the league close to stealth.
> 
> PN has their own advancement/plans into many areas and Pakistan Tri Services are going full NATO or above standard capabilities.... Air, Sea & Land. Indeed, it may sound too much of boasting but here, the capability does not mean billions & billions being spent. Pakistan is doing it way above than the capacity and in much better ways to be treated a modern force.


Please tell me its an ICBM. Flying higher, American Influence, backlash like the 90s, billions and billions, all point to the same thing. InshaAllah 🤩


----------



## Trailer23

Bilal. said:


> No sub title?


Had there of been Subtitles, I wouldn't of tagged just the Chinese members & would've mentioned to turn on Captions.

Maybe one of them might give us some feedback on the video.

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## redtom

Trailer23 said:


> *Guys, this video is for our good friends (for obvious reasons).*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @帅的一匹 @Beast @MH.Yang @redtom @Shotgunner51 @siegecrossbow @vi-va @Polestar 2 @IblinI @serenity & @Deino* [knowing he has his links of explaining the content]*


It is about the history of air force exchanges between China and Pakistan.There is no more information.

The real treasure is this.According to this video, Pakistani pilots have been training in Chengdu on a large scale in the past few years. In comments on this video on Chinese websites, some claimed to have met the Pakistani pilot and his family in a supermarket. 





As an additional but unconfirmed source, they mentioned in a more dramatic way that the PAF was very impressed by the J10C's excellent performance during the Joint air exercises between Pakistan and China in the past few years. At that time, PAF had already proposed the purchase intention, and the modification in the middle was mainly to cut costs and remove some electronic equipment, making the final price very cheap. They joked that if it were the Saudis they would question the price of the plane and they would ask for the J10 to be upgraded to the top of the line version.

So, I remind my Friends in Pakistan, if you notice Pakistani pilots in Shenyang in the future, it means that FC31 may enter PAF soon.

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## Areesh

In coming months and years you would see these articles appearing in Indian media

1. Pakistani J10s grounded due to poor safety and flying performance
2. Pakistan not happy with Chinese J10
3. Pakistan thinking to buy new platform due to poor performance of Chinese J10

etc etc

Be ready for such articles in near future

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## Trailer23

Areesh said:


> In coming months and years you would see these articles appearing in Indian media
> 
> 1. Pakistani J10s grounded due to poor safety and flying performance
> 2. Pakistan not happy with Chinese J10
> 3. Pakistan thinking to buy new platform due to poor performance of Chinese J10
> 
> etc etc
> 
> Be ready for such articles in near future


What Months/Years? 

According to Indian Media, we are not happy with the Jets and their trouble-prone Chinese Engines right now & are demanding a refund or we'll take Ladakh all to ourselves.

I don't think Pakistan/PAF has had as many articles on the JF-17 in the past decade, compared to the ones that have come out from India in the past 6 Months. 

As per their reports, half of JF-17 fleet is grounded.

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## Beast

Trailer23 said:


> What Months/Years?
> 
> According to Indian Media, we are not happy with the Jets and their trouble-prone Chinese Engines right now & are demanding a refund or we'll take Ladakh all to ourselves.
> 
> I don't think Pakistan/PAF has had as many articles on the JF-17 in the past decade, compared to the ones that have come out from India in the past 6 Months.
> 
> As per their reports, half of JF-17 fleet is grounded.


Same as the shxtty news from Taiwan. They will attack anything related to PRC brainlessly with faked news. Soon they will claim all PAF J-10C crashed. Taiwan number one! 









Shoddy JF-17 fighters throw doubt on quality of Chinese-made jets | Taiwan News | 2022-01-12 18:30:00


Amid PLAAF incursions into Taiwan's ADIZ, Pakistan shows hidden weaknesses of Chinese military aircraft | 2022-01-12 18:30:00




www.taiwannews.com.tw


----------



## Princeps Senatus

Beast said:


> Same as the shxtty news from Taiwan. They will attack anything related to PRC brainlessly with faked news. Soon they will claim all PAF J-10C crashed. Taiwan number one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shoddy JF-17 fighters throw doubt on quality of Chinese-made jets | Taiwan News | 2022-01-12 18:30:00
> 
> 
> Amid PLAAF incursions into Taiwan's ADIZ, Pakistan shows hidden weaknesses of Chinese military aircraft | 2022-01-12 18:30:00
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.taiwannews.com.tw


better than---- 1s at least 



Windjammer said:


> A close up of the business end of a J-10C. Notice the Chin hardpoint.
> 
> 
> View attachment 816763

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## Beast

Princeps Senatus said:


> better than their f*ck 1s at least


The only Shxt these Taiwanese can get is at least their FCK-1 is better than Iranian koswar fighter jet.

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## Riz

Areesh said:


> In coming months and years you would see these articles appearing in Indian media
> 
> 1. Pakistani J10s grounded due to poor safety and flying performance
> 2. Pakistan not happy with Chinese J10
> 3. Pakistan thinking to buy new platform due to poor performance of Chinese J10
> 
> etc etc
> 
> Be ready for such articles in near future


80% Jf-17 fleet is already grounded, those which people saw flying are actually f-7s with fake nose cone and vertical stabilizers ( india today)

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## maverick1977

MuslimRAJPUT said:


> Please tell me its an ICBM. Flying higher, American Influence, backlash like the 90s, billions and billions, all point to the same thing. InshaAllah 🤩


Pakistan made ICBM in mid 2000s, and has substantial arsenal to take down any big power. It never is announced and wont be till Pakistan is amongst the top economic and conventional power.

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## Raja Porus

Windjammer said:


> Thank you for that positive input, the whole irony is that it was the retired AVM Shahid Lateef who went to evaluate the Gripen..... however my understanding is that it was the PAF which dropped the Gripen purchase as the aircraft incorporated many American gadgets thus making it vulnerable to any US sanctions.
> 
> View attachment 816771





Raider 21 said:


> Mastan,
> 
> Are you aware of the Viggen deal and followed by an initial evaluation of sending 2 PAF pilots to evaluate the Gripen in the early 1990s? Just asking out of curiosity
> 
> 
> The Israelis have had embargoes from both the US and France back in the day. That's what pushed them to have their own aerospace and defence firms







Story of Pakistan Airforce; 1988-1998

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## Shotgunner51

Beast said:


> Same as the shxtty news from Taiwan. They will attack anything related to PRC brainlessly with faked news. Soon they will claim *all PAF J-10C crashed*. Taiwan number one!


Like that recently crashed F-16V which by them boasted as the world's best 3rd gen medium jet? Hope there are still some left in stock when a battle eventually arrives.



https://panpacificagency.com/news/china/05/05/analytics-chinese-j-10c-vs-us-f-16v-which-fighter-would-prevail-in-an-air-war/

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## GOAT

The Eagle said:


> On this post, I mean for this very post of yours; keep my words with you and I wish that you and everyone else may live longer (In'Sha'ALLAH) when it becomes true while we will be celebrating right here.
> 
> PAC has tasted the blood of own hunt. Own product. The next thing is going to send shockwaves. A shock that might risk a huge backlash like back in 90s but, thanks to American influence & attempts of sabotage that it will be no longer relevant or matter at all. Pakistan is going to fly high and higher. Something to be called our own competing in the league close to stealth.
> 
> PN has their own advancement/plans into many areas and Pakistan Tri Services are going full NATO or above standard capabilities.... Air, Sea & Land. Indeed, it may sound too much of boasting but here, the capability does not mean billions & billions being spent. Pakistan is doing it way above than the capacity and in much better ways to be treated a modern force.


Very interesting. Coincidentally, this article published today claims that:

“a lightweight fifth generation fighter with a single engine configuration, possibly using the same engine that in twin configuration powers the FC-31, is reportedly also under development to serve as a successor to the JF-17 on export markets with the Pakistani Air Force expected to be its primary client.” 

Could this be what you are referring to?

Source: Single engine 5th gen successor to JF-17

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## Beast

Shotgunner51 said:


> Like that recently crashed F-16V which by them boasted as the world's best 3rd gen medium jet? Hope there are still some left in stock when a battle eventually arrives.
> 
> 
> 
> https://panpacificagency.com/news/china/05/05/analytics-chinese-j-10c-vs-us-f-16v-which-fighter-would-prevail-in-an-air-war/


These Taiwanese are shameless. They will do anything just to slander PRC and claim the high moral ground.

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## The Eagle

GOAT said:


> Very interesting. Coincidentally, this article published today claims that:
> 
> “a lightweight fifth generation fighter with a single engine configuration, possibly using the same engine that in twin configuration powers the FC-31, is reportedly also under development to serve as a successor to the JF-17 on export markets with the Pakistani Air Force expected to be its primary client.”
> 
> Could this be what you are referring to?
> 
> Source: Single engine 5th gen successor to JF-17



TBH, I wouldn't relate my comments or opinion to any such development. I do not claim the authenticity at all.

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## MuslimRAJPUT

maverick1977 said:


> Pakistan made ICBM in mid 2000s, and has substantial arsenal to take down any big power. It never is announced and wont be till Pakistan is amongst the top economic and conventional power.


I know that Pakistan is hiding some high tech military hardware. But I want them to reveal it to the whole world. US will be uneasy. InshaAllah in due time.


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## Princeps Senatus

Desert Fox 1 said:


> View attachment 816793
> 
> Story of Pakistan Airforce; 1988-1998


dodged a bullet there

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## _NOBODY_

GOAT said:


> Very interesting. Coincidentally, this article published today claims that:
> 
> “a lightweight fifth generation fighter with a single engine configuration, possibly using the same engine that in twin configuration powers the FC-31, is reportedly also under development to serve as a successor to the JF-17 on export markets with the Pakistani Air Force expected to be its primary client.”
> 
> Could this be what you are referring to?
> 
> Source: Single engine 5th gen successor to JF-17


A single engine 5th gen fighter would be using something like WS-15 or WS-10 instead of WS-13 or RD-93MA.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

MuslimRAJPUT said:


> Please tell me its an ICBM.


Bro he is talking about PAC.


----------



## MuslimRAJPUT

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Bro he is talking about PAC.


My bad.


----------



## Bleek

Bob Bollusc said:


> J-10C looks much better than Rafale. DSI is a real looker.


Disagree, Rafale is sexy

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## siegecrossbow

Trailer23 said:


> *Guys, this video is for our good friends (for obvious reasons).*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @帅的一匹 @Beast @MH.Yang @redtom @Shotgunner51 @siegecrossbow @vi-va @Polestar 2 @IblinI @serenity & @Deino* [knowing he has his links of explaining the content]*



This guy leaked the J-10CP sale in a talk show back in 2021.






【察话会Au】210909施佬拉着扬基来聊聊枭龙、金头盔以及中美航空力量差异_哔哩哔哩_bilibili


8点几了，施基利进化——施拉基！几日不见，甚是想念！这次从巴基斯坦秀新枭龙开始，宽泛地从金头盔、两岸、装备和发展思路等等角度，梳理一下中美飞上天这方面的现存差异和未来角逐。未来大家有什么想听的，还请大家多给施佬留言点菜，我们下回再见！, 视频播放量 105164、弹幕量 1159、点赞数 4511、投硬币枚数 2058、收藏人数 699、转发人数 128, 视频作者 胡诌施佬, 作者简介...




www.bilibili.com

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## snne

Raider 21 said:


> The Israelis have had embargoes from both the US and France back in the day. That's what pushed them to have their own aerospace and defence firms


A more recent example of that would be Turkey, ironically a NATO country with shitty "allies" which try to undermine and marginalize her for the sake of their own political gains.

And poor Ukraine still thinks the West will have their back in case of an escalation. What a shame.


----------



## Aesterix

Dear PDF,
This aircraft is called JF-17 Block 3. Its parked at PAC Kamra. Just to refresh your memory.

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## NA71

multiple trusted twitter handles confirming ......80 J-10CP to be acquired in two years time.

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## Thorough Pro

Rumours=/=news
The people you hear from are all liars, they hear from someone who read it on some social media and then they spread the lie without any research or validation. It's not new, we have been seeing you for more than a decade spreading lies on this forum, if nothing else have some respect for the facial hair you support in the footsteps of our beloved holy prophet. Stop spreading lies. Calm down, you make it sound like you are making it all happen and if you stopped your unsubstantiated rumor mill on PDF, things won't happen. get married, do something useful.




Zarvan said:


> Those who are following these matters no. I am not the one with contacts but those who break these news I know them. Even MODS here pretty much most of them knows a about a lot more weapons which they can't reveal until permission is given. Tipu gave you a hint and you are not believing it so just relax and like I said before you would hear about lot of different weapon systems in next 10 years. We are making up for loss decade and we are doing fast by grace and mercy of ALLAH



with "TOT" and in "BIG NUMBERS" ? 



Zarvan said:


> All kinds of weapon systems. From weapons to EW to other systems will be coming. All three forces are buying lot of weapons and lot more will be bought. Off several types.

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## Aesterix

Whats this air intake for?
Port side on fuselage. J-10C


----------



## siegecrossbow

Aesterix said:


> Whats this air intake for?
> Port side on fuselage.
> View attachment 816873



My guess is APU. @Deino

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## Trailer23

Yaar, topic is on J-10C/E/P.

And don't worry..., no one has forgotten the Block III. But there appears to be a new kid on the block & everyone here is pumped 'bout it.

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## arjunk

Aesterix said:


> Whats this air intake for?
> Port side on fuselage. J-10C
> View attachment 816873


APU or air inlet for cooling other systems

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## Aesterix

arjunk said:


> APU or air inlet for cooling other systems


But there's an air inlet under vertical stabiliser too. Why another one on fuselage?


----------



## Beast

Thorough Pro said:


> Rumours=/=news
> The people you hear from are all liars, they hear from someone who read it on some social media and then they spread the lie without any research or validation. It's not new, we have been seeing you for more than a decade spreading lies on this forum, if nothing else have some respect for the facial hair you support in the footsteps of our beloved holy prophet. Stop spreading lies. Calm down, you make it sound like you are making it all happen and if you stopped your unsubstantiated rumor mill on PDF, things won't happen. get married, do something useful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with "TOT" and in "BIG NUMBERS" ?


Precisely, this is the problem with this forum. There are too many no standard forumer faking to be pro or analyst. Just spread the usual twitter post or from no unreliable hearsay. They just like to or want to hear things they want. They dont care about whether its true or not. Here is the only small place where it can fulfil their fantasy. Not willing to take in the latest change in world order. Update of new information are extremely poor.

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## redgriffin

Aesterix said:


> View attachment 816366
> 
> 
> What are these?


Formation flying low visibility strip lights also called "slime lights".

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## alikazmi007

NA71 said:


> Now Indians are on top gear in social media propeganda and disinfo ops against PAF acquisition of J10c..... Three difference Twitter spaces in just one day... Thousands of tweets on J10....
> 
> Why they are so concerned if it is an extremely inferior to Rafale...... Just look at one tweeter space just ended
> View attachment 816618


It's all good brother, their arrogance has no bounds. They always think they have "way superior gear" and we always had "hand me down, antiquated hardware". Case in point:

F-86 Sabers vs Hunters,
F-86 vs Gnats
F-86 - vs Mig - 21s
Sabers vs Su-7

basically, everything they have is better than everything we got .....

But we are good teachers as you know, and time and time again, we "Educate" them, with our hardcore Training, Cleaver Planning, and Superior tactics. It's not the Airplane that fights, it's the guy in the cockpit that matters. And of course, during this education process, we WOOP their Behinds! We are a Fun-loving bunch, what can I say.

Our boys are happy to be at this service.

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## Khan vilatey

Aesterix said:


> Whats this air intake for?
> Port side on fuselage. J-10C
> View attachment 816873


For those who understand RC flying cheater holes 😂 

K


----------



## Dual Wielder

Aesterix said:


> Whats this air intake for?
> Port side on fuselage. J-10C
> View attachment 816873



Fantastic tea dispenser.. "J10cp brings the tea to You.. so you don't have to.." - PAF

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## Engima Chaudhry

Aesterix said:


> Whats this air intake for?
> Port side on fuselage. J-10C
> View attachment 816873


Bottom one for apu, theophylline one for rwr and e warfare cooling



Engima Chaudhry said:


> Bottom one for apu, theophylline one for rwr and e warfare cooling


The top one , correction


----------



## Bleek

Bob Bollusc said:


> Disagree. J-10C makes Rafale look like ugly duckling.


You are biased. 

Look at her move:

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## NA71

A Chinese friend breaks this tweet

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## arjunk

Bob Bollusc said:


> J-10C replaces F-16


No. Something far bigger will replace F-16s.


----------



## PanzerKiel

NA71 said:


> A Chinese friend breaks this tweet
> 
> View attachment 816896


I am also waiting for the right time.

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## NA71

PanzerKiel said:


> I am also waiting for the right time.


sir , kon dila raha hy yeh jets ...kahan say aa rahein hy yeh jets.....

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## CodeforFood

The Eagle said:


> TBH, I wouldn't relate my comments or opinion to any such development. I do not claim the authenticity at all.


I hope something in the water(high endurance). That would really make some waves (pun intended)

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## Bleek

TFX should replace F-16

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## PanzerKiel

NA71 said:


> sir , kon dila raha hy yeh jets ...kahan say aa rahein hy yeh jets.....


Am not referring to (just) FC-31s.

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## arjunk

arjunk said:


> No. Something far bigger will replace F-16s.


When big boy toys and/or FC-31s arrive I will demand apologies from everyone even if they agreed with me. And if they don't arrive I will kill the fly in my DP.

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## NA71

Bleek said:


> TFX should replace F-16


TFX is a distant dream ...it seems PAF is ensuring qualitative Edge for achieve air superiority doctrine. Hence, going for what is current available. Remember, 27/2 ...has changed the entire thought process.


----------



## CodeforFood

alikazmi007 said:


> It's all good brother, their arrogance has no bounds. They always think they have "way superior gear" and we always had "hand me down, antiquated hardware". Case in point:
> 
> F-86 Sabers vs Hunters,
> F-86 vs Gnats
> F-86 - vs Mig - 21s
> Sabers vs Su-7
> 
> basically, everything they have is better than everything we got .....
> 
> But we are good teachers as you know, and time and time again, we "Educate" them, with our hardcore Training, Cleaver Planning, and Superior tactics. It's not the Airplane that fights, it's the guy in the cockpit that matters. And of course, during this education process, we WOOP their Behinds! We are a Fun-loving bunch, what can I say.
> 
> Our boys are happy to be at this service.


o bhajan itneee ghaltian...


----------



## Dual Wielder

Bob Bollusc said:


> No. J-10 replaces F-16. Those 40 year old frames are due for phasing out by 2030.



Your new here, so Just to warn You.. careful with what You say, there's a cult following for eff solas (f16's) here on PDF..

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## PakFactor

Dual Wielder said:


> Your new here, so Just to warn You.. careful with what You say, there's a cult following for eff solas (f16) here on PDF..



Lol, might give them a heart attack if the F-Sola is gone, or worse yet be in the unemployed line.

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## Bleek

Bob Bollusc said:


> TFX uses American engines. No way Americans will allow TFX in Pakistan.


The Turks have ambitious goals of their own domestic engine...


----------



## MuslimRAJPUT

PanzerKiel said:


> Am not referring to (just) FC-31s.


Don’t give me (us) hope 😭


----------



## arjunk

Bob Bollusc said:


> No. J-10 replaces F-16. Those 40 year old frames are due for phasing out by 2030.


We have been using Mirages for 50+ years, do you think PAF is going to throw out their beloved F-16s any time soon? Besides it is still the second best fighter in the air force (for air to air), and is good at multirole tasks unlike the J-10 which is primarily suited for air to air missions.

Did you know the Indians were saying that for every F-16 they had to fly 2 Su-30mki "raptors of the east?" And to this day the single biggest thing they are scared of is F-16Vs for Pakistan, some of them even think they will end up like Syria being bombed by Israel for shits and giggles.

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## Trailer23

Bleek said:


> You are biased.
> 
> Look at her move:


I have seen pretty much every modern day Fighter Jet countless times.

With the exception of F-22 Raptor, nothing beats the Viper in moves.

The Rafale is a pussy.

But, if you're looking to put the fear of God in the shape of a Jet. Try standing next to a taxing A-10.

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## Aesterix

Trailer23 said:


> I have seen pretty much every modern day Fighter Jet countless times.
> 
> With the exception of F-22 Raptor, nothing beats the Viper in moves.
> 
> The Rafale is a pussy.
> 
> But, if you're looking to put the fear of God in the shape of a Jet. Try standing next to a taxing A-10.


Likewise the sideways cannon of AC-130. Seen it up close. Scary stuff

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## Big_bud

I'm loving the speed this thread is flying at! haha 😂

It was quite & boring a few days at PDF! Not any more! This thing is flying! Every time I login I have a couple of pages of entertainment & joy in front of me! Haha!

Some of the boys really building some hype about mystery jet/ weapon to be inducted! 😍 Mindz racing...

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## Pakistan Space Agency

GOAT said:


> Very interesting. Coincidentally, this article published today claims that:
> 
> “a lightweight fifth generation fighter with a single engine configuration, possibly using the same engine that in twin configuration powers the FC-31, is reportedly also under development to serve as a successor to the JF-17 on export markets with the Pakistani Air Force expected to be its primary client.”
> 
> Could this be what you are referring to?
> 
> Source: Single engine 5th gen successor to JF-17


Interesting.

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## HaMoTZeMaS

Princeps Senatus said:


> Pockets are deep enough but no option is open to us currently.


ye rona dhona sirf magarmach k ansu han phir!


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## Zarvan

Thorough Pro said:


> Rumours=/=news
> The people you hear from are all liars, they hear from someone who read it on some social media and then they spread the lie without any research or validation. It's not new, we have been seeing you for more than a decade spreading lies on this forum, if nothing else have some respect for the facial hair you support in the footsteps of our beloved holy prophet. Stop spreading lies. Calm down, you make it sound like you are making it all happen and if you stopped your unsubstantiated rumor mill on PDF, things won't happen. get married, do something useful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with "TOT" and in "BIG NUMBERS" ?


No they are not. Secondly I don't take information from those whose sources are social media or Haqeeqat TV. I take news from sources which are as reliable as they can get. I am not spreading lies you are. After seeing so many weapons in last one and a half year you are still in denial so nothing would change you. How about you stop being in denial. No I am not making anything happen I just literally try to get these kind of news 24 hours a day. So please lot of weapons are coming and lot more will come including big stuff. But no weapons can bring you out of your denial so stop debating with me please.

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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> I have seen pretty much every modern day Fighter Jet countless times.
> 
> With the exception of F-22 Raptor, nothing beats the Viper in moves.
> 
> The Rafale is a pussy.
> 
> But, if you're looking to put the fear of God in the shape of a Jet. Try standing next to a taxing A-10.


The Rafale, F-22 and even the F-35A fly extremely well. What the F-16 cannot do, the F-35A can. Take this from someone who has time in the Viper and seen a few of the above ones fly as well. Rafale is not to be underestimated, just because the Indians have acquired it. It has a growing export market for a reason as it flies extremely well. USAF Viper test pilots have found the Rafale to be extremely capable as well. 



A-10s are fearsome, there was a reason why Taliban would run away.

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## MultaniGuy

I have heard a rumor that the J-10C is not as good as the Rafale, is this true?

Someone correct me if I heard wrong.

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## Trailer23

Raider 21 said:


> USAF Viper test pilots have found the Rafale to be extremely capable as well.


Well, the Viper Drivers I stood next to, would disagree. They weren't impressed & neither was I.

It didn't do anything that WoWed me - except the fact that it makes a lotta noise. But so does my neighbors 2003 Camaro.

The F-35, to me it looked like cinderblock in air, but no one questions its capabilities. Just aerial display.

But again, that's just my opinion.

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## FuturePAF

NA71 said:


> A Chinese friend breaks this tweet
> 
> View attachment 816896


Would be great, especially for the Navy; to protect the SLOCs and help create a bastion along the coast.



MultaniGuy said:


> I have heard a rumor that the J-10C is not as good as the Rafale, is this true?
> 
> Someone correct me if I heard wrong.


There is a lot of data that is classified on both sides, so no one really knows. Pakistan does have experience with the Rafale and I’d assume they tailored the J-10CP to counter it as best as possible. A lot of what was developed for the Rafale has been around for over a decade. Long enough for countermeasures to be developed. IMHO, The J-10CP is comparable kinematically, and the weapons are in a similar class. What we don’t fully know is the capabilities of the electronics on either side, which makes assessing any statement of the relative performance hard to do.

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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> Well, the Viper Drivers I stood next to, would disagree. They weren't impressed & neither was I.
> 
> It didn't do anything that WoWed me - except the fact that it makes a lotta noise. But so does my neighbors 2003 Camaro.
> 
> *The F-35, to me it looked like cinderblock in air, but no one questions its capabilities. Just aerial display.
> 
> But again, that's just my opinion.*


The Paris Air Show had its first F-35A display by a LM test pilot, it shut a lot of the skeptics in terms of its maneuverability and performance.

The Rafale demos I recall at Dubai 2005 and 2007 by Dassault were beyond impressive, I have not seen the French AF Rafale demos yet that often perform at the more recent Dubai exhibitions.

Say hi to your neighbour.

Cheers


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## Trailer23

@帅的一匹 @Beast @MH.Yang @redtom @Shotgunner51 @siegecrossbow @vi-va @Polestar 2 @IblinI @serenity
​

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## MultaniGuy

FuturePAF said:


> Would be great, especially for the Navy; to protect the SLOCs and help create a bastion along the coast.
> 
> 
> There is a lot of data that is classified on both sides, so no one really knows. Pakistan does have experience with the Rafale and I’d assume they tailored the J-10CP to counter it as best as possible. A lot of what was developed for the Rafale has been around for over a decade. Long enough for countermeasures to be developed. IMHO, The J-10CP is comparable kinematically, and the weapons are in a similar class. What we don’t fully know is the capabilities of the electronics on either side, which makes assessing any statement of the relative performance hard to do.


Thanks for the update on information. I too have little knowledge when comparing fighter planes.

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## MultaniGuy

FuturePAF said:


> Would be great, especially for the Navy; to protect the SLOCs and help create a bastion along the coast.
> 
> 
> There is a lot of data that is classified on both sides, so no one really knows. Pakistan does have experience with the Rafale and I’d assume they tailored the J-10CP to counter it as best as possible. A lot of what was developed for the Rafale has been around for over a decade. Long enough for countermeasures to be developed. IMHO, The J-10CP is comparable kinematically, and the weapons are in a similar class. What we don’t fully know is the capabilities of the electronics on either side, which makes assessing any statement of the relative performance hard to do.


Pakistan should get J-31 or J-20 if they are for export or if they can be built under license in Pakistan.

We need to have a qualitative advantage over India.

Not just minimum deterrence.

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## karachidude86

Zarvan said:


> No they are not. Secondly I don't take information from those whose sources are social media or Haqeeqat TV. I take news from sources which are as reliable as they can get. I am not spreading lies you are. After seeing so many weapons in last one and a half year you are still in denial so nothing would change you. How about you stop being in denial. No I am not making anything happen I just literally try to get these kind of news 24 hours a day. So please lot of weapons are coming and lot more will come including big stuff. But no weapons can bring you out of your denial so stop debating with me please.


INSHA ALLAH


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## MultaniGuy

FuturePAF said:


> Would be great, especially for the Navy; to protect the SLOCs and help create a bastion along the coast.
> 
> 
> There is a lot of data that is classified on both sides, so no one really knows. Pakistan does have experience with the Rafale and I’d assume they tailored the J-10CP to counter it as best as possible. A lot of what was developed for the Rafale has been around for over a decade. Long enough for countermeasures to be developed. IMHO, The J-10CP is comparable kinematically, and the weapons are in a similar class. What we don’t fully know is the capabilities of the electronics on either side, which makes assessing any statement of the relative performance hard to do.


But the best part from buying from China is that never comes with conditions, and plus we are buying from an ally.
Buying equipment from the West always comes with conditions.

So fvck the West.

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## Bleek

MultaniGuy said:


> But the best part from buying from China is that never comes with conditions


Nothing to back this up, there are definitely conditions...

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## MultaniGuy

Bleek said:


> Nothing to back this up, there are definitely conditions...


And what conditions did J-10Cs for Pakistan come with? There were no conditions I believe, like the West does.



MultaniGuy said:


> I have heard a rumor that the J-10C is not as good as the Rafale, is this true?
> 
> Someone correct me if I heard wrong.


….


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## Raider 21

MultaniGuy said:


> And what conditions did J-10Cs for Pakistan come with? There were no conditions I believe, like the West does.
> 
> 
> @Dreamer. , fvck off you Indiot. The J-10C is better than your shitty MiG-29s.
> 
> Now shoo.


Any modern fighter acquisition program comes with conditions irrespective of USA, China, Russia, South Korea.....
USA export programs are more documented

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## Dreamer.

MultaniGuy said:


> And what conditions did J-10Cs for Pakistan come with? There were no conditions I believe, like the West does.
> 
> 
> @Dreamer. , fvck off you Indiot. The J-10C is better than your shitty MiG-29s.
> 
> Now shoo.


Just because I gave a laugh reaction to your stupid post? I am not an indian and your post has been reported for its foul language.

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## FuturePAF

MultaniGuy said:


> Pakistan should get J-31 or J-20 if they are for export or if they can be built under license in Pakistan.
> 
> We need to have a qualitative advantage over India.
> 
> Not just minimum deterrence.


J-31 still seems like it’s in development, but it looks promising. Budgetary concerns aside, the navy does need a long range twin engine platform to knock out enemy ships (and enemy fighters that try to cover them) and escort patrol aircraft, to prevent encirclement via the sea.

The J-31 also opens up the option for more offensive operations and operating in contested airspace (in an environment where the S-400 changes how operations have to be done)

Two squadrons of J-31 would be a good start, even in their current form.



MultaniGuy said:


> But the best part from buying from China is that never comes with conditions, and plus we are buying from an ally.
> Buying equipment from the West always comes with conditions.
> 
> So fvck the West.


There are always strings, but considering the level of trust, they don’t have to spelled out, they are understood.

Besides, key systems (such as datalinks) are changed to prevent inadvertent leaks (such as if a spy gets through screening and tries to transfer any information)

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## MultaniGuy

Dreamer. said:


> Just because I gave a laugh reaction to your stupid post? I am not an indian and your post has been reported for its foul language.


lol. Sorry, I thought you were an Indian. 



FuturePAF said:


> J-31 still seems like it’s in development, but it looks promising. Budgetary concerns aside, the navy does need a long range twin engine platform to knock out enemy ships and escort patrol aircraft, to prevent encirclement via the sea.
> 
> The J-31 also opens up the option for more offensive operations and operating in contested airspace (in an environment where the S-400 changes how operations have to be done)
> 
> Two squadrons of J-31 would be a good start, even in their current form.
> 
> 
> There are always strings, but considering the level of trust, they don’t have to spelled out, they are understood.
> 
> Besides, key systems (such as datalinks) are changed to prevent inadvertent leaks (such as if a spy gets through screening and tries to transfer any information)


Yes, that is what I meant.

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## Goritoes

@PanzerKiel as we know PN has change its dynamics, you think there is a chance them going for a dedicated twin engine long range strike fighter ? Won't name any jets because then people will start going into shenanigan's.

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## TOPGUN

Bob Bollusc said:


> JF-17 replaces Mirage III/V which are in the same size class. J-10C replaces F-16 which is in the same size class.



Wrong f-16's are not going anywhere for a very long time, these J-10CP are to fill in the gap which is much needed.

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## Iron Shrappenel

Goritoes said:


> @PanzerKiel as we know PN has change its dynamics, you think there is a chance them going for a dedicated twin engine long range strike fighter ? Won't name any jets because then people will start going into shenanigan's.


Lmao f-15


----------



## Trailer23



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## MastanKhan

The Eagle said:


> On this post, I mean for this very post of yours; keep my words with you and I wish that you and everyone else may live longer (In'Sha'ALLAH) when it becomes true while we will be celebrating right here.
> 
> PAC has tasted the blood of own hunt. Own product. The next thing is going to send shockwaves. A shock that might risk a huge backlash like back in 90s but, thanks to American influence & attempts of sabotage that it will be no longer relevant or matter at all. Pakistan is going to fly high and higher. Something to be called our own competing in the league close to stealth.
> 
> PN has their own advancement/plans into many areas and Pakistan Tri Services are going full NATO or above standard capabilities.... Air, Sea & Land. Indeed, it may sound too much of boasting but here, the capability does not mean billions & billions being spent. Pakistan is doing it way above than the capacity and in much better ways to be treated a modern force.



Hi,

PAC has tasted 'blood'---with the JF17. 

In less than 1 decade---it had a flyable operational aircraft and with less than 20 years of its inception---it has already tasted combat and used some of the advanced weapons that it was designed to use---and it used them successfully.

It is due to the commitment of PAC and china that this aircraft has come about swinging right from the gate and I do not doubt that the next project would be another exceptional work as you stated.



Raider 21 said:


> Mastan,
> 
> Are you aware of the Viggen deal and followed by an initial evaluation of sending 2 PAF pilots to evaluate the Gripen in the early 1990s? Just asking out of curiosity
> 
> 
> The Israelis have had embargoes from both the US and France back in the day. That's what pushed them to have their own aerospace and defence firms



Hi,

That part I have missed out on. Maybe you can shed some light on it.

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## Thorough Pro

Why do you keep saying I am in denial? I believe everything that is officially disclosed by PA, PN, PAF, and GOP. I don't trust any rumors on social media spread by anonymous people. Finally, respecting your request, I leave you to you. May ALLAH guide us all.






Zarvan said:


> No they are not. Secondly I don't take information from those whose sources are social media or Haqeeqat TV. I take news from sources which are as reliable as they can get. I am not spreading lies you are. After seeing so many weapons in last one and a half year you are still in denial so nothing would change you. How about you stop being in denial. No I am not making anything happen I just literally try to get these kind of news 24 hours a day. So please lot of weapons are coming and lot more will come including big stuff. But no weapons can bring you out of your denial so stop debating with me please.

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## serenity

Trailer23 said:


> @帅的一匹 @Beast @MH.Yang @redtom @Shotgunner51 @siegecrossbow @vi-va @Polestar 2 @IblinI @serenity
> ​



At the start mostly just talks about the history of the purchase and that PAF bought J-10C in response to IAF's purchase of Rafale and then talks about boring stuff like basic knowledge on it is able to drop bombs and nothing interesting or information that is the most basic. Talks about which countries ordered Rafale and how Rafale recently picked up many contracts due to upgrades Dassault did for Rafale and exports beating Eurofighter due to more efforts from Dassault to improve it while Euro consortium basically slowed heaps of upgrades.

Then talks about J-10CP able to use PL-15E (export version) and how this can most likely CEC with Chinese AWACS that PAF is using. He talks about Meteor being very strong and has excellent NEZ, great speed. He says the Rafale's strong point is EW. Beating Su-35 easily in exercises.

He says export price is probably 50M dollars each for J-10CP to PAF. This is less than half the Rafale's export unit price. This price obviously includes weapons package and parts supply and maintenance. This is basically the same price PLAAF pays for J-10. So basically no profit made. J-10CE price is actually higher but Pakistan is a part of BRI and a close ally and also an geopolitically important ally for BRI routes, that security of friendly government and nation is also important to China.

Pakistan's economic hopes at the moment do not look good at all. They cannot afford over 1.5 billion US dollars for around 30 J-10CP in this economic condition. Talks about Pakistan wanting to negotiate loans for CPEC and Beijing agreeing to delay repayments from Pakistan from years delay to indefinite.

Talks about money made from exports and the history. Boring basic knowledge stuff.

Rest is all boring irrelevant stuff relating to global political changes and military sales of other countries.

Basically whole thing says nothing worth watching/listening. No information that is new or interesting. Full of speculation on reason for purchase and history of arms sales like talking to someone who knows basically nothing about military stuff and sales.

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## smart7788

Trailer23 said:


> @帅的一匹 @Beast @MH.Yang @redtom @Shotgunner51 @siegecrossbow @vi-va @Polestar 2 @IblinI @serenity
> ​


There are so many mistakes in the video and nothing useful.

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## maverick1977

i wanna laugh at guys who made fun of me last year when i told them that J10Cs are coming by spring of 2022… that i said in July last year.. 
For those a wipes, its wipe time , 😉😉😜😜

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## Aesterix

maverick1977 said:


> i wanna laugh at guys who made fun of me last year when i told them that J10Cs are coming by spring of 2022… that i said in July last year..
> For those a wipes, its wipe time , 😉😉😜😜


Well we havent seen them yet at a PAF base, so there is 0.1 pecent chance that you were wrong...Still

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## MultaniGuy

In this article, it never says Rafale is better than J-10C

Pakistan Air Force speeds up fighter force modernisation with JF-17 Block III​ 
JF-17 Block III, J-10 induction to bolster country’s air power, meet future requirements


 
Published: January 16, 2022 08:56  Sana Jamal, Correspondent  

     

 



Pakistan Air Force JF-17 Thunder flying over Nanga Parbat mountain. Image Credit: PAF Hamid Faraz
Islamabad: The year 2022 will be the most significant for Pakistan Air Force as it is set to replace its ageing fleet and modernise its fighter force to maintain superiority in air combat.

The most anticipated news is the rollout of JF-17 Thunder Block III fighter jets built at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra, which will become the backbone of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fleet. The rollout ceremony of Block III was held in December and the first of the 50 jets will officially join PAF in early 2022.












Remaining Time -2:00








Another noteworthy development is the reported induction of the advanced Chengdu J-10C aircraft in the coming months. Experts say that modern and more powerful aircraft would bolster Pakistan’s air power, meet future requirements, and balance power in the region.




The latest PAC Kamra-built JF-17 Block III aircraft rolled out in late December 2021. Image Credit: PSFAero Twitter

JF-17 Block III packs a big punch​ 
JF-17 Thunder is a single-engine, lightweight, multirole combat aircraft, jointly developed by China and Pakistan. PAC Kamra has delivered nearly 120 JF-17 Block I and II fighter jets to the PAF since 2009. “JF-17 fighter jet program is continuing at a startling speed as Pakistan achieved the development to operational capability to the launch of upgraded versions in a short span of 20 years.



The progress has been spectacular as more than 100 aircraft have already joined the PAF,” said retired Air Marshal Farhat Hussain Khan who is currently serving as President of Islamabad-based Centre for Aerospace and Security Studies (CASS). He served for 36 years with the PAF retiring as Vice Chief of Air Staff and also worked as chief project director of the JF-17 program.

Pakistan’s first 4.5-generation aircraft​ 
The Block III variant of JF-17 will be the country’s first 4.5-generation aircraft and most advanced jet equipped with a modern radar system, upgraded sensors, software, and engine to adapt to rapidly evolving technologies. “One of the key features will be the world’s most advanced Airborne Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar” which is the gold standard in modern aircraft, Khan told Gulf News.

Block III will see “massive upgrades in the airframe and systems which will significantly improve the aircraft’s performance and allow it to carry additional armaments.” The new variant of the combat and battle-proven JF-17 fighter jet “will attract international interest as it will be the only aircraft of its type packing advanced features but is also affordable,” he added. Nigeria and Myanmar are the first export customers for the JF-17 while Malaysia, Argentina, Sri Lanka, Azerbaijan, Egypt, Iraq have expressed interest.




New batch of dual-seat JF-17 fighter jets joined Pakistan Air Force on December 30, 2020. Image Credit: Supplied

What makes JF-17 Block III versatile?​ 
Pakistan’s JF-17 Block III version is considered to be in the same league as Sweden’s next-generation JAS 39 Gripen NG - both featuring cutting-edge avionics and high performance while maintaining increased levels of operational readiness. Defence analyst Shahid Raza considers the more capable AESA radar one of the major features in Block III. “This radar provides detection of fighter-sized targets at 170 kilometres away, include multimode look-down, shoot-down capability, and can also engage over the horizon threats, making this lightweight aircraft a great asset,” Raza told Gulf News.



Other key features include a wide-angle holographic heads-up display which offers a field of view larger than that of F-16, three-axis fly-by-wire digital flight control system, integrated cockpit with single piece man-machine interface, helmet mounted display (HMD) to take full advantage of the PL-10 imaging infrared-guided (IIR) missile’s high-off boresight (HOBS) abilities as well as electronic warfare suite.

Block III weapon payload​ 
“Block III includes one additional hardpoint, making a total of eight, to carry extra pods, weapons, smart munitions, sensors. It will carry IIR-guided PL-10 HOBS air-to-air missiles which is of the same class as American AIM-9x Sidewinder, French MICA ER and IRIS-T German missiles,” Raza explained.

What makes JF-17 Block III more powerful is the access to the “Extended range beyond-visual-range (BVR) PL-15 missiles with 200 km range, which outranges the American AIM-120D Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM).” It can also carry two CM-400AKG anti-ship missiles, laser and GPS guided weapons and cruise missiles.




J-10C aircraft. Image Credit: Chinese media

Is Pakistan acquiring J-10C from China?​ 
Although there is no official confirmation or denial from the air force yet, however, insiders say the country will soon acquire 25 Chengdu J-10 ‘Vigorous Dragon’ multirole fighters. Pakistan’s Interior Minister Sheikh Rasheed Ahmed has announced that J-10C would take part in the Pakistan Day event on March 23, adding that the jets are a “counter to India’s Dassault Rafale jets.”



J-10C to help PAF achieve air dominance​ 
Pakistan has long expressed interest in the advanced J-10 as part of ongoing efforts to replace its ageing fleet of F-7, and Mirages as PAF continues to adapt and modernise warfighting capabilities. If confirmed, the acquisition would mark “a major milestone,” making it the most modern and capable fighter in the Pakistani fleet.

“J-10C is a capable platform with advanced avionics and able to conduct multiple air-to-air and air-to-ground operations, making it a valuable addition to PAF’s inventory. The induction will also help regain the balance of power in the region, which had been adversely affected with the induction of Rafale jets by the Indian Air Force,” said retired Air Marshal Ashfaque Arain, director at CASS.

J-10C - ‘True swing-role aircraft’​ 
Pakistan is expected to buy the latest J-10C model, which has Chinese-built WS-10 engines and features AESA radar and compatibility with extended range PL-15 BVR missiles. The J-10C can help PAF “achieve air dominance and conduct Suppression and Destruction of Enemy Air Defences (SEAD/DEAD) missions to disrupt and destroy adversary air defence systems” said Shahid Raza. “J-10C features a true swing-role capability as it is able to swing between air to air combat, anti-surface and ground attack roles.”

PAF rethinking high-low mix​ 
The news of possible induction of J-10C has prompted debate whether Pakistan requires another advanced jet along with the rollout of the locally developed capable JF-17 Block III fighter jet. Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail, a former pilot who has flown all PAF fighter jets until 2005 when he retired after 30 years of service, explained the reason for acquiring both aircraft.

“There’s a concept in air force called ‘high-low mix’ which means a mix of a smaller number of expensive and extremely capable aircraft (high) along with a large number of cheaper yet lethal fighter jets (low).” The low-cost and lightweight fighter JF-17 “is the workhorse of Pakistan Air Force which we will have in large numbers. But PAF would also require a smaller fleet of high-end fighters like J-10C which is the most capable yet affordable,” he said, citing the example of the US Air Force that considered the F-16 as a low-end aircraft to augment the F-15 air superiority.



J-10C vs Rafale​ 
*Many Pakistani commentators including the interior minister have described the J-10 acquisition as a “counter” to the Rafale jets acquired by India.* The J-10C is considered Chinese equivalent to the American F-16s but it will be a significant leap for Pakistan, which relies on older F-16s that have not received upgrades. Comparing the J-10C with Dassault Rafale, Tufail said that “Rafale is one of the world’s most advanced non-stealthy fighters.

One of its key features is the next generation Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM) weapon called ‘Meteor’ which has an estimated range of over 150 kilometres. J-10C will fill this gap as it boasts the capable AESA radar and long-range PL-15 missiles that can outrange the missile on Rafale,” he said. The “J-10 is currently the best option for PAF in terms of capability and affordability” to modernize its fleet as well as to achieve and maintain air dominance.

Nobody said Rafale is better than J-10C. They just said Rafale is one of the most advanced non-stealthy fighters out there.

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## Clutch



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## Falcon26

Bob Bollusc said:


> J-10C looks much better than Rafale. DSI is a real looker.



Objectively speaking, Rafale is among the most beautiful jets ever made. It leaves the J-10 in the dust.

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## Pappa Alpha

Falcon26 said:


> Objectively speaking, Rafale is among the most beautiful jets ever made. It leaves the J-10 in the dust.


Looks are subjective. No objectivity here.


Does anyone know which variant of the PL-15 will be used by J-10CP? The shorter range export version or the full range version?

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## applesauce

Falcon26 said:


> Objectively speaking, Rafale is among the most beautiful jets ever made. It leaves the J-10 in the dust.



you should really look up what the word"objectively" means.

I do like the look of the rafale too though.

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## jaybird

serenity said:


> At the start mostly just talks about the history of the purchase and that PAF bought J-10C in response to IAF's purchase of Rafale and then talks about boring stuff like basic knowledge on it is able to drop bombs and nothing interesting or information that is the most basic. Talks about which countries ordered Rafale and how Rafale recently picked up many contracts due to upgrades Dassault did for Rafale and exports beating Eurofighter due to more efforts from Dassault to improve it while Euro consortium basically slowed heaps of upgrades.
> 
> Then talks about J-10CP able to use PL-15E (export version) and how this can most likely CEC with Chinese AWACS that PAF is using. He talks about Meteor being very strong and has excellent NEZ, great speed. He says the Rafale's strong point is EW. Beating Su-35 easily in exercises.
> 
> He says export price is probably 50M dollars each for J-10CP to PAF. This is less than half the Rafale's export unit price. This price obviously includes weapons package and parts supply and maintenance. This is basically the same price PLAAF pays for J-10. So basically no profit made. J-10CE price is actually higher but Pakistan is a part of BRI and a close ally and also an geopolitically important ally for BRI routes, that security of friendly government and nation is also important to China.
> 
> Pakistan's economic hopes at the moment do not look good at all. They cannot afford over 1.5 billion US dollars for around 30 J-10CP in this economic condition. Talks about Pakistan wanting to negotiate loans for CPEC and Beijing agreeing to delay repayments from Pakistan from years delay to indefinite.
> 
> Talks about money made from exports and the history. Boring basic knowledge stuff.
> 
> Rest is all boring irrelevant stuff relating to global political changes and military sales of other countries.
> 
> Basically whole thing says nothing worth watching/listening. No information that is new or interesting. Full of speculation on reason for purchase and history of arms sales like talking to someone who knows basically nothing about military stuff and sales.



I think this Marcus guy in the video is probably from Taiwan. His credibility goes down the drain in the beginning of the video saying J-10C use Russian engine RD-93MA. 😆 I would've forgive his mistake if he was saying it was AL-31FN. But RD-93MA ?? 🤔

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## jaybird

Falcon26 said:


> Objectively speaking, Rafale is among the most beautiful jets ever made. It leaves the J-10 in the dust.


Objectively speaking, every person's beauty standard is different. What is beauty to you maybe is ugly to others. You can only say in your own opinion that Rafale's beauty leaves J-10C in the dust. I'm sure most Indian agree with you though. 😉

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## Bleek

Bob Bollusc said:


> Joke of the day, bro. Joke of the day.


Western jets look the best right now, China's J-35 will be the best looking when it's inducted, after the F-22 and F-16 

But TFX also looks pretty nice

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## MultaniGuy

Bob Bollusc said:


> JF-17 phases out F-7, Mirage III/V. J-10C phases out F-16.


Hopefully there will be more cooperation between Pakistan and China.

Pakistan needs to reform:
1) domestic politics
2) poverty reduction
3) job opportunities
4) Need to improve economy

Even that tiny country called Taiwan has a larger economy than Pakistan's.

We should learn from China and Taiwan.

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## serenity

jaybird said:


> I think this Marcus guy in the video is probably from Taiwan. His credibility goes down the drain in the beginning of the video saying J-10C use Russian engine RD-93MA. 😆 I would've forgive his mistake if he was saying it was AL-31FN. But RD-93MA ?? 🤔



I thought in that section he was talking about JF-17. I used 1.5x play speed. As soon as I noticed it was basic info stuff and lots of boring history of sales and who uses what, I paid 50% attention while writing the summary at the same time lol.

I don't think he's Taiwanese? Accent sounds more mainland but could be. Many Taiwanese don't have a strong mingnan accent.



MultaniGuy said:


> Hopefully there will be more cooperation between Pakistan and China.
> 
> Pakistan needs to reform:
> 1) domestic politics
> 2) poverty reduction
> 3) job opportunities
> 4) Need to improve economy
> 
> Even that tiny country called Taiwan has a larger economy than Pakistan's.
> 
> We should learn from China and Taiwan.



Lol bro Taiwan is as much a country as California is if California voted some rogue super liberal guy who then used military force supported by Russia and China to break from the US.

It does not make it legitimate and since only a handful of countries consider Taiwan as deserving more recognition, there's how many countries that recognize it's status as a country?

Taiwan has never been a country in the entire history of earth. Many people forget or not aware of this. Taiwan was always a province of China, Imperial China in the past and then ROC and even now during PRC history of China, Taiwan is still regarded as a Chinese province even by the USA itself. USA itself does not recognize Taiwan as a country. It is not like it has always been independent country and suddenly claimed by China like all the western media and indian propaganda is presenting it as.

Anyway though I know what you mean. Even I sometimes use the term country when describing Taiwan since it's easier and quicker to.

But I'm sure you know as well what I wrote. It's just for the benefit of those who may be that ignorant to believe that Taiwan was and is a country. It has never been one no more than Zurich has been an independent country from Switzerland. But if Russians supported some movement and armed them so well during a time of Swiss weakness, is it fair? Anyway with those boys strength is everything so be strong.

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## MultaniGuy

serenity said:


> I thought in that section he was talking about JF-17. I used 1.5x play speed. As soon as I noticed it was basic info stuff and lots of boring history of sales and who uses what, I paid 50% attention while writing the summary at the same time lol.
> 
> I don't think he's Taiwanese? Accent sounds more mainland but could be. Many Taiwanese don't have a strong mingnan accent.
> 
> 
> 
> Lol bro Taiwan is as much a country as California is if California voted some rogue super liberal guy who then used military force supported by Russia and China to break from the US.
> 
> It does not make it legitimate and since only a handful of countries consider Taiwan as deserving more recognition, there's how many countries that recognize it's status as a country?
> 
> Taiwan has never been a country in the entire history of earth. Many people forget or not aware of this. Taiwan was always a province of China, Imperial China in the past and then ROC and even now during PRC history of China, Taiwan is still regarded as a Chinese province even by the USA itself. USA itself does not recognize Taiwan as a country. It is not like it has always been independent country and suddenly claimed by China like all the western media and indian propaganda is presenting it as.
> 
> Anyway though I know what you mean. Even I sometimes use the term country when describing Taiwan since it's easier and quicker to.
> 
> But I'm sure you know as well what I wrote. It's just for the benefit of those who may be that ignorant to believe that Taiwan was and is a country. It has never been one no more than Zurich has been an independent country from Switzerland. But if Russians supported some movement and armed them so well during a time of Swiss weakness, is it fair? Anyway with those boys strength is everything so be strong.


Sorry, I forgot about that. I had to quickly get my message across. Taiwan is a renegade province of China.

Even Taiwan has a larger economy than Pakistan. Taiwan has a population of 23 million people but a nominal GDP of $700 billion.
Pakistan has a population of 240 million people but a nominal GDP of 340 billion.

That is what I meant. Pakistan should learn from China and Taiwan.

But also I have to be fair too, The West invested a lot in Taiwan.

But the West did not do the same to Pakistan.

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## Iceman2

PanzerKiel said:


> Am not referring to (just) FC-31s.


Sir eastern ya western bs yeh bata den

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## untitled

NA71 said:


> A Chinese friend breaks this tweet
> 
> View attachment 816896





PanzerKiel said:


> I am also waiting for the right time.


It was @fatman17 who first announced that PAF would end up procuring FC-31s.






Operation Swift Retort by Alan Warnes


Alhamdulillah .



defence.pk





His "Just a nice pic" thread is awfully quiet these days. I pray he is OK

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## PurpleButcher

maverick1977 said:


> i wanna laugh at guys who made fun of me last year when i told them that J10Cs are coming by spring of 2022… that i said in July last year..
> For those a wipes, its wipe time , 😉😉😜😜


Peer o Murshid G!
What are your predictions for Spring of 2023? We will believe you this time.

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## serenity

MultaniGuy said:


> Sorry, I forgot about that. I had to quickly get my message across. Taiwan is a renegade province of China.
> 
> Even Taiwan has a larger economy than Pakistan. Taiwan has a population of 23 million people but a nominal GDP of $700 billion.
> Pakistan has a population of 240 million people but a nominal GDP of 340 billion.
> 
> That is what I meant. Pakistan should learn from China and Taiwan.
> 
> But also I have to be fair too, The West invested a lot in Taiwan.
> 
> But the West did not do the same to Pakistan.



That's quite true but it's not just the West. For example mainland China secured more investment from Japan, Hong Kong and places like Taiwan, Singapore, and South Korea than China received from the West.

People think only the West has money. At the moment East Asia has more money than the combined West. We hold over 30 trillion US dollars in the form of debt and equity of Western... well everything. Just from being a creditor and owner (even at least partial owner) of many Western companies and assets.

Today, Japan + China + South Korea + Taiwan + Singapore is already bigger than USA or the entire EU. Once we account for PPP, China's intentionally deflated currency, and the fact that China and Japan own so much of the USA not even counting equity, the difference is even more massive.

Now the question really is, how does a country attract investment and also become very productive. China was both attractive to investment and extremely productive and industrial. The cost is hard work and this work by even hardworking western standards was epic. Backbreaking hardwork and saving for at least three whole generations close to 2 billion people cycling through this three generations to turn this around. They also saved and invested that money very well. Diversified and gambled well with good payoffs and returns. Invested in the future and useful things. Not blowing it on lamborghinis like some new rich. However China's newer generations are accustomed to comfort BUT they are smart and also work hard! This at least has been passed on to this generation and while they spend more, nationalism has trended to China's favor as well.

I do not think South Asians work quite as hard overall! many smarter and more hardworking south asians than east asians but as a whole there really is quite a cultural and maybe even environmental and genetic difference that contribute to work ethic patterns and general social behavior. Japan is excellent example. China is only beginning this journey and while maybe only 20% to 30% of citizens are at Japan's level of productivity and hard working, it's already a significant difference to many other neighbors. I have worked in China, Singapore, and Australia. The difference is huge. Singapore easily top of these three followed closely by China. This is just medium level stuff. With high tier industries, China's work ethic would beat Singapore and it is to the point of being too straining. But this is also why there is progress.

Taiwan now receives much more mainland investment than US investment. Japan also invested in China more than USA. Germany roughly the same as USA during those 1980s to 2000s era. Taiwan too. Can Pakistan make itself attractive to investment and make use of everything? Make itself productive, properly use investment, learn, adapt, change, progress and work very hard for next 100 years? China had bigger population advantage but this is as much a problem as it is a strength. There is absolutely no such thing as population dividend when it is mostly unruly, unintelligent, uneducated, disorganized, and complains a lot. China started with 80% of its population like that. Authoritarianism worked well for China because luckily we had good leaders that wielded that power more well than they did poorly.

I think there are so many things for other now poor and chaotic countries to begin the journey. It's like the conditions a planet needs to evolve intelligent life. It require billions of factors working together and net effect in that direction over time. It cannot even be allowed to take that long as disrupting events from negative forces come on a cycle too.

After China, not a single country has even gone from poverty to middle income. African countries have improved a lot but not at middle income level. Thailand, Malaysia and some others were already middle income before China even got to middle income status. China's the only one to have done it after Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore and those guys didn't have many sanctions and bans to deal with since the 1960s like China has had to. They also had a much smaller population which is easier to convert.

India will never get to above middle income unless it is the will of all the major powers. It isn't simply a work hard and it will come formula. And even that, India and lots of now poor nations do not have that could compare to what China and South Korea had to go through.

But Pakistan has one advantage, China's favor. It isn't attracting Chinese investment though only geopolitically derived investments and agreements. To start the journey, Pakistan would at least need lots of foreign investment from major economic powers. Since EU and USA will not be involved with that, China may but so far it has not shown interest. After all, China is nowhere near as rich as the western nations on a per capita basis and has a bit more work left to do to get to that level.

Throughout history, wealth has concentrated in only some parts of the world and never spread throughout it. However India and Pakistan were a part of those wealthy long in the past before the British and Europeans stole almost everything. So clearly South Asia had the stuff it takes in the past but it's much harder for pauper to climb to billionaire than other direction right? The building of momentum to regain that is much more difficult to potentially impossible. India really should demand Britain not only apologize but pay back even half of the damage they did and what they stole from India. Without the British involved in Asia and colonialism, half our current troubles would not even exist. Of course they would never do such a thing now they have the riches and power. And India... goodness what has become of you in the last ten years. Imperialism changed and destroyed India not just physically but ruined its psyche too not just for indians but even neighbors. Anyway that's another story.

I think no country will follow that path unless they first begin with internal structural and cultural change. South Korea, Singapore, and Taiwan were fiercely authoritarian and had reform after reform to start this journey. East Asians are a bit more practical and realistic, less delusional about things and probably this helped in finding the problems and knowing what the true problems are before starting the reforms and structural changes to begin the journey. Otherwise you will never compete and be appealing for money. Money does make the world go around even if it is not everything, but without money everything is also unavailable.

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## MultaniGuy

serenity said:


> That's quite true but it's not just the West. For example mainland China secured more investment from Japan, Hong Kong and places like Taiwan, Singapore, and South Korea than China received from the West.
> 
> People think only the West has money. At the moment East Asia has more money than the combined West. We hold over 30 trillion US dollars in the form of debt and equity of Western... well everything. Just from being a creditor and owner (even at least partial owner) of many Western companies and assets.
> 
> Today, Japan + China + South Korea + Taiwan + Singapore is already bigger than USA or the entire EU. Once we account for PPP, China's intentionally deflated currency, and the fact that China and Japan own so much of the USA not even counting equity, the difference is even more massive.
> 
> Now the question really is, how does a country attract investment and also become very productive. China was both attractive to investment and extremely productive and industrial. The cost is hard work and this work by even hardworking western standards was epic. Backbreaking hardwork and saving for at least three whole generations close to 2 billion people cycling through this three generations to turn this around. They also saved and invested that money very well. Diversified and gambled well with good payoffs and returns. Invested in the future and useful things. Not blowing it on lamborghinis like some new rich. However China's newer generations are accustomed to comfort BUT they are smart and also work hard! This at least has been passed on to this generation and while they spend more, nationalism has trended to China's favor as well.
> 
> I do not think South Asians work quite as hard overall! many smarter and more hardworking south asians than east asians but as a whole there really is quite a cultural and maybe even environmental and genetic difference that contribute to work ethic patterns and general social behavior. Japan is excellent example. China is only beginning this journey and while maybe only 20% to 30% of citizens are at Japan's level of productivity and hard working, it's already a significant difference to many other neighbors. I have worked in China, Singapore, and Australia. The difference is huge. Singapore easily top of these three followed closely by China. This is just medium level stuff. With high tier industries, China's work ethic would beat Singapore and it is to the point of being too straining. But this is also why there is progress.
> 
> Taiwan now receives much more mainland investment than US investment. Japan also invested in China more than USA. Germany roughly the same as USA during those 1980s to 2000s era. Taiwan too. Can Pakistan make itself attractive to investment and make use of everything? Make itself productive, properly use investment, learn, adapt, change, progress and work very hard for next 100 years? China had bigger population advantage but this is as much a problem as it is a strength. There is absolutely no such thing as population dividend when it is mostly unruly, unintelligent, uneducated, disorganized, and complains a lot. China started with 80% of its population like that. Authoritarianism worked well for China because luckily we had good leaders that wielded that power more well than they did poorly.
> 
> I think there are so many things for other now poor and chaotic countries to begin the journey. It's like the conditions a planet needs to evolve intelligent life. It require billions of factors working together and net effect in that direction over time. It cannot even be allowed to take that long as disrupting events from negative forces come on a cycle too.
> 
> After China, not a single country has even gone from poverty to middle income. African countries have improved a lot but not at middle income level. Thailand, Malaysia and some others were already middle income before China even got to middle income status. China's the only one to have done it after Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore and those guys didn't have many sanctions and bans to deal with since the 1960s like China has had to. They also had a much smaller population which is easier to convert.
> 
> India will never get to above middle income unless it is the will of all the major powers. It isn't simply a work hard and it will come formula. And even that, India and lots of now poor nations do not have that could compare to what China and South Korea had to go through.
> 
> But Pakistan has one advantage, China's favor. It isn't attracting Chinese investment though only geopolitically derived investments and agreements. To start the journey, Pakistan would at least need lots of foreign investment from major economic powers. Since EU and USA will not be involved with that, China may but so far it has not shown interest. After all, China is nowhere near as rich as the western nations on a per capita basis and has a bit more work left to do to get to that level.
> 
> Throughout history, wealth has concentrated in only some parts of the world and never spread throughout it. However India and Pakistan were a part of those wealthy long in the past before the British and Europeans stole almost everything. So clearly South Asia had the stuff it takes in the past but it's much harder for pauper to climb to billionaire than other direction right? The building of momentum to regain that is much more difficult to potentially impossible. India really should demand Britain not only apologize but pay back even half of the damage they did and what they stole from India. Without the British involved in Asia and colonialism, half our current troubles would not even exist. Of course they would never do such a thing now they have the riches and power. And India... goodness what has become of you in the last ten years. Imperialism changed and destroyed India not just physically but ruined its psyche too not just for indians but even neighbors. Anyway that's another story.
> 
> I think no country will follow that path unless they first begin with internal structural and cultural change. South Korea, Singapore, and Taiwan were fiercely authoritarian and had reform after reform to start this journey. East Asians are a bit more practical and realistic, less delusional about things and probably this helped in finding the problems and knowing what the true problems are before starting the reforms and structural changes to begin the journey. Otherwise you will never compete and be appealing for money. Money does make the world go around even if it is not everything, but without money everything is also unavailable.


Thank you for your insightful post. You raised some valid arguments.

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## MastanKhan

Genghis khan1 said:


> What I have observed so far over 2 decades
> and noticed how things are at work in US. Everything is dumb down. People are stupid relative to other nations. I wondered, what is keeping this system successful. US army is known for enlisting window licking retards, still they are able to train and win wars. People from all over the world are coming here and making fortunes. One reason I can tell is, There is no such thing as stupid idea in US. No barrier for those that are brave enough to test new ideas.



Hi,

Wonderful a people that the americans are---they have miserably failed with managing pakistan---and for what----36 F16's---36 fckng lousy F16's that would not have made a hair move on the merican forehead---and yet they chose to do so.

The blamed pakistan for all their failures in AFG and made it their whipping boy---. Such a shame to do such a thing to an ally that would go all out to make the americans happy. Oh well.

First the Tomahawk---then the JF17 and now the J10's---and we may learn in a few years about a stealth helicopter---.

Only if Pakistan had opted for Yemen crisis---it would be militarily and financially secure to stand a major crisis.

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## ghazwaehind786

Pakistan should buy opium from Afghanistan turn it into heroin and sell it to rss in India. 
Results: - good relations with afghan warlords 
- billions $$$ yearly income which can be used to buy more J-10 and other toys 
- rss get addicted to heroin and Indian society has huge drug problem which destroys their society. Rss will be druggies and won’t pose a threat to us 
Triple win for us. We can afford Su 35, Eurofighter, j20, j16, f-16 with the revenue we make off Indians

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## shi12jun

serenity said:


> 一开始主要只是谈论购买的历史，PAF 购买 J-10C 是为了响应 IAF 购买阵风，然后谈论无聊的东西，比如关于它的基本知识能够投掷炸弹，没有什么有趣或信息是最基本的。讨论了哪些国家订购了阵风，以及阵风最近如何因达索为阵风进行的升级而获得许多合同，以及由于达索加大力度改进它而出口击败欧洲战斗机，而欧洲财团基本上放慢了升级的速度。
> 
> 然后讨论了能够使用 PL-15E（出口版）的 J-10CP 以及 PAF 正在使用的中国 AWACS 如何最有可能实现 CEC。他谈到 Meteor 非常强大，NEZ 非常出色，速度非常快。他说阵风的强项是电子战。在练习中轻松击败 Su-35。
> 
> 他说，J-10CP 到巴基斯坦空军的出口价格可能是每架 5000 万美元。这还不到阵风出口单价的一半。这个价格显然包括武器包和零件的供应和维护。这与中国空军为 J-10 支付的价格基本相同。所以基本没有盈利。J-10CE的价格实际上更高，但巴基斯坦是“一带一路”的一部分，是“一带一路”的亲密盟友，也是“一带一路”路线的重要地缘政治盟友，友好政府和国家的安全对中国也很重要。
> 
> 巴基斯坦目前的经济希望看起来一点也不乐观。在这种经济条件下，他们无法支付超过 15 亿美元购买大约 30 架 J-10CP。关于巴基斯坦希望为 CPEC 谈判贷款的谈判和北京同意将巴基斯坦的还款从数年推迟到无限期。
> 
> 谈论从出口赚来的钱和历史。无聊的基础知识。
> 
> 休息都是与全球政治变化和其他国家的军售有关的无聊无关的东西。
> 
> 基本上整件事都没有什么值得看/听的。没有新的或有趣的信息。对购买原因和武器销售历史的猜测充满了猜测，比如与对军事材料和销售一无所知的人交谈。


此人是法轮功大纪元宣传之人https://www.epochtimes.com/gb/21/8/22/n13179292.htm

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## Gripen9

Foinikas said:


> Ahahahahaha it's malaka 😂


My cypriot friend uses that word a lot 🤣


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## Jammer

The goal is to post and discuss all things J10 CP in one thread (besides just the 23rd March fly past, two have already landed in Pak 2 days ago by the way). Mods do what you may with this thread in terms of placement and access on the site.

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## Beast

Jammer said:


> The goal is to post and discuss all things J10 CP in one thread (besides just the 23rd March fly past, two have already landed in Pak 2 days ago by the way). Mods do what you may with this thread in terms of placement and access on the site.


Are you sure? The J-10CE we see in PAF colors are so far taken from Chengdu CAC.


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## Zarvan

Jammer said:


> The goal is to post and discuss all things J10 CP in one thread (besides just the 23rd March fly past, two have already landed in Pak 2 days ago by the way). Mods do what you may with this thread in terms of placement and access on the site.


Delete the thread there are already several threads running on this same jet.


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## arjunk

Raider 21 said:


> A-10s are fearsome, there was a reason why Taliban would run away.


A-10s are particularly fearsome to British people.


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## jisite

MultaniGuy said:


> Sorry, I forgot about that. I had to quickly get my message across. Taiwan is a renegade province of China.
> 
> Even Taiwan has a larger economy than Pakistan. Taiwan has a population of 23 million people but a nominal GDP of $700 billion.
> Pakistan has a population of 240 million people but a nominal GDP of 340 billion.
> 
> That is what I meant. Pakistan should learn from China and Taiwan.
> 
> But also I have to be fair too, The West invested a lot in Taiwan.
> 
> But the West did not do the same to Pakistan.



If we talk about commonality, if a country wants to develop rapidly, it is necessary to have a strong government.


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## Bleek

Zarvan said:


> Delete the thread there are already several threads running on this same jet.


Has it really landed in Pakistan?


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## Vapnope

PanzerKiel said:


> Am not referring to (just) FC-31s.


Now we are gonna get dozens of youtube videos regarding everything in Chinese arsenal coming to Pakistan 

@Zarvan See many goodies are coming in big numbers

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## Raider 21

arjunk said:


> A-10s are particularly fearsome to British people.


Cute


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## Zarvan

PanzerKiel said:


> Am not referring to (just) FC-31s.


Sir I hope you are not being sarcastic



Vapnope said:


> Now we are gonna get dozens of youtube videos regarding everything in Chinese arsenal coming to Pakistan
> 
> @Zarvan See many goodies are coming in big numbers


If he is not being sarcastic yes lot of weapons are coming. Not just from China but all over the world. Big, medium and small weapons. All kind of stuff is coming. INSHALLAH we will rise by help and mercy of ALLAH.



Goritoes said:


> @PanzerKiel as we know PN has change its dynamics, you think there is a chance them going for a dedicated twin engine long range strike fighter ? Won't name any jets because then people will start going into shenanigan's.


I really hope so

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## TheTallGuy

Order of J10CE is not for 36 aircraft. actual requirement is for 54 (three squadrons) and extra Six aircraft for CSS.

total 60 which does not include half life attrition purchase ..which i think will be in future

actually its the same order requirement put forth for the F-16s block 52 in mid 2005 inPAF force structure.

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## Zarvan

TheTallGuy said:


> Order of J10CE is not for 36 aircraft. actual requirement is for 54 (three squadrons) and extra Six aircraft for CSS.
> 
> total 60


This is already known to every body now. In fact it would increase much further.


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## TheTallGuy

Zarvan said:


> This is already known to every body now. In fact it would increase much further.



so Batch 7 includes the 1st of 36 reminder will come from Batch 8

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## Zarvan

TheTallGuy said:


> so Batch 7 includes the 1st of 36 reminder will come from Batch 8


That I don't know but most probably yes.


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## TheTallGuy

Zarvan said:


> This is already known to every body now. In fact it would increase much further.


to operated the J10CE weapon system to full potential the ZDK-3 are also upgraded with AESA.

This is full proper weapon system purchase after a very very longtime..

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## Raja Porus

If @PanzerKiel was running a news channel, I swear to God that no other channel would match its ratings... especially in Pakistan

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## NA71

Zarvan said:


> Sir I hope you are not being sarcastic
> 
> 
> If he is not being sarcastic yes lot of weapons are coming. Not just from China but all over the world. Big, medium and small weapons. All kind of stuff is coming. INSHALLAH we will rise by help and mercy of ALLAH.
> 
> 
> I really hope so


.... Bhai..... Please.... Indians are also human.... Let them sleep peacefully....



TheTallGuy said:


> to operated the J10CE weapon system to full potential the ZDK-3 are also upgraded with AESA.
> 
> This is full proper weapon system purchase after a very very longtime..


Welcome back to PDF... after long time.... bro

Latest hahal bird..... 😁

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## Zarvan



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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495342161826500615

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## Big_bud

TheTallGuy said:


> Order of J10CE is not for 36 aircraft. actual requirement is for 54 (three squadrons) and extra Six aircraft for CSS.
> 
> total 60 which does not include half life attrition purchase ..which i think will be in future
> 
> actually its the same order requirement put forth for the F-16s block 52 in mid 2005 inPAF force structure.



For the first time PAF pilots will have another aircraft comparable to F16s. It would be interesting to see whether J10c is able to break the love affair of PAF pilots with F16s or not? I am sure we will see a shift where pilots will talk fondly about the J10s like they used to about F16s! Fondly going on and on telling its stories!

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## TopGun786

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495342161826500615


The guy talks sensibly... Very rare for an Indian.

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## Talon

arjunk said:


> Besides it is still the second best fighter in the air force (for air to air)


Umm second best? J-10 hasn't even landed yet ( no evidence so far ) and is no where being operational and you have decided to call it better than an aircraft that has been backbone of the air force for few decades now?



Bob Bollusc said:


> J-10C makes F-16C look like a joke. Pakistan don't need their 10 F-16C when they get 100 J-10C.








On a serious note, please support your claim with facts instead of making illogical comments of 100 J-10s > 10 F-16s.


People need to realise that be it an F-7 or an F-16, all these aircrafts have and are serving the air force for so many years. And these all aircrafts are YOURS so why the constant hate towards specific platforms? I am sure after certain years you would be bullying JF-17 and J-10s as well without any proper logic.

*Why does the service years of an aircraft matter to you if that particular aircraft is still performing much better than your enemy's latest fighters? Do not forget, it was viper that saved your a**** in 2019. *

Why this debate anyways? Professionals at PAF don't engage in these useless talks so why us? This is totally waste of time and nothing else.

Most experts here agree that F-16 and J-10 are at par with eachother. Both have their Perks and they are here to compliment eachother not go against eachother.

If you want to engage in these debates, please stay with F-16 v Su30 or J-10 v Rafale.

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## White privilege

TopGun786 said:


> The guy talks sensibly... Very rare for an Indian.


He also called the IAF radar picture evidence "circumstantial" .Shiv Aroor attached _more_ weight to Gen Ghafoor's presser where he mentioned _2 pilots_ at first.I am surprised they have not been lynched by now....


----------



## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> Umm second best? J-10 hasn't even landed yet ( no evidence so far ) and is no where being operational and you have decided to call it better than an aircraft that has been backbone of the air force for few decades now?
> 
> 
> View attachment 817009
> 
> 
> On a serious note, please support your claim with facts instead of making illogical comments of 100 J-10s > 10 F-16s.
> 
> 
> People need to realise that be it an F-7 or an F-16, all these aircrafts have and are serving the air force for so many years. And these all aircrafts are YOURS so why the constant hate towards specific platforms? I am sure after certain years you would be bullying JF-17 and J-10s as well without any proper logic.
> 
> *Why does the service years of an aircraft matter to you if that particular aircraft is still performing much better than your enemy's latest fighters? Do not forget, it was viper that saved your a**** in 2019. *
> 
> Why this debate anyways? Professionals at PAF don't engage in these useless talks so why us? This is totally waste of time and nothing else.
> 
> Most experts here agree that F-16 and J-10 are at par with eachother. Both have their Perks and they are here to compliment eachother not go against eachother.
> 
> If you want to engage in these debates, please stay with F-16 v Su30 or J-10 v Rafale.


A former RAF Tornado RIO, who participated in the Gulf War, told me that once he was monitoring a NATO plus USAF ordnance delivering exercise. He was on the observation tower near the firing range, at the end an F-16 was asked to do a flypast.... according to him the Viper flew some 25 Feet from the tower with afterburner.... He said he had flown in combat over Iraq, seen the likes of F-15, Hornets, Mirage 2000, but nothing gave him the goosebumps like F-16 did that day.

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## That Guy

Hodor said:


> Umm second best? J-10 hasn't even landed yet ( no evidence so far ) and is no where being operational and you have decided to call it better than an aircraft that has been backbone of the air force for few decades now?
> 
> 
> View attachment 817009
> 
> 
> On a serious note, please support your claim with facts instead of making illogical comments of 100 J-10s > 10 F-16s.
> 
> 
> People need to realise that be it an F-7 or an F-16, all these aircrafts have and are serving the air force for so many years. And these all aircrafts are YOURS so why the constant hate towards specific platforms? I am sure after certain years you would be bullying JF-17 and J-10s as well without any proper logic.
> 
> *Why does the service years of an aircraft matter to you if that particular aircraft is still performing much better than your enemy's latest fighters? Do not forget, it was viper that saved your a**** in 2019. *
> 
> Why this debate anyways? Professionals at PAF don't engage in these useless talks so why us? This is totally waste of time and nothing else.
> 
> Most experts here agree that F-16 and J-10 are at par with eachother. Both have their Perks and they are here to compliment eachother not go against eachother.
> 
> If you want to engage in these debates, please stay with F-16 v Su30 or J-10 v Rafale.


This is correct.

On topic: another added benefit of having the J-10Cs is that they'll give PAF a good chance to train with and against a fighter that's very similar in capabilities to the Rafale.

If India doesn't get more rafales soon, which this thread has established that it won't for year's to come, then they really will have no choice but to buy another fighter type, which will mean even more logistical nightmares for the IAF. They can't get the numbers advantage for the Rafales due to the long waiting list, and buying yet another fighter type is adding to costs for India.

IAF really is stuck in a rut.

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## CHI RULES

That Guy said:


> This is correct.
> 
> On topic: another added benefit of having the J-10Cs is that they'll give PAF a good chance to train with and against a fighter that's very similar in capabilities to the Rafale.
> 
> If India doesn't get more rafales soon, which this thread has established that it won't for year's to come, then they really will have no choice but to buy another fighter type, which will mean even more logistical nightmares for the IAF. They can't get the numbers advantage for the Rafales due to the long waiting list, and buying yet another fighter type is adding to costs for India.
> 
> IAF really is stuck in a rut.


One should not forget that India has other choices i.e Super Sukhoi project to upgrade existing SU30s as well as getting some old ones from Russia and getting them upgraded as well as Mig 29s. IAF has learned a lot from previous skirmish including secured data link as well as improved A2A missiles with better ranges.

It is just likeout out of no where no Pak getting significant nos of J10cs from China in short span of time, The only hurdle is perhaps cost issues for Indo-Russia.


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## Princeps Senatus

Big_bud said:


> For the first time PAF pilots will have another aircraft comparable to F16s. It would be interesting to see whether J10c is able to break the love affair of PAF pilots with F16s or not? I am sure we will see a shift where pilots will talk fondly about the J10s like they used to about F16s! Fondly going on and on telling its stories!


Probably not, nothing is as light nimble and agile as F-16

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## NA71

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495342161826500615


Zarvan ney Vishnu ko bhi ghera howa hy

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## Areesh

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495342161826500615



Waisai zarvan. Bura na maana bhai

Laikin ho tum bhi meera ki tarah poorai attention seeker

We don't need validation from pajeets that we keep going to them to ask their opinion about our acquisitions

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## Deino

A bit bigger and modified

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## Danish Moazzam

One added advantage of J-10 is the sheer number of AC that the Chinese operate, They have grilled the plane and it will be updated as the mainstay single engine for PLAAF. 
Second advantage is in case of combat, PAF can always loan a few to boost number and establish deterrence and plan aggression. 
This flexibility is not available for any other AC. Even JF-17 does not provide that option. So a very sensible and calculated buy. 60 is a good enough number to train and establish the tactics and keep enough pilots that can fly this plane in combat at any given time.
Integration with the chinese sub-system is another advantage. These are the things that IAF cannot do even after spending 10+ billion $

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## Deino

Another one ...

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## That Guy

CHI RULES said:


> One should not forget that India has other choices i.e Super Sukhoi project to upgrade existing SU30s as well as getting some old ones from Russia and getting them upgraded as well as Mig 29s. IAF has learned a lot from previous skirmish including secured data link as well as improved A2A missiles with better ranges.
> 
> It is just likeout out of no where no Pak getting significant nos of J10cs from China in short span of time, The only hurdle is perhaps cost issues for Indo-Russia.


The question remains, does IAF even want more sukhois, considering they've become a logistical and maintenance nightmare for India, with readiness rates barely reaching 50% of it's existing Sukhoi fleet.

I personally don't think India is interested in Russian fighters any longer, and Feb 27th proved how ineffective India's sukhois were, as they had to turn tail when faced with f-16 blk52s of PAF, who outranged and outgunned the Su-30MKIs.

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## adelphi

That Guy said:


> This is correct.
> 
> On topic: another added benefit of having the J-10Cs is that they'll give PAF a good chance to train with and against a fighter that's very similar in capabilities to the Rafale.
> 
> If India doesn't get more rafales soon, which this thread has established that it won't for year's to come, then they really will have no choice but to buy another fighter type, which will mean even more logistical nightmares for the IAF. They can't get the numbers advantage for the Rafales due to the long waiting list, and buying yet another fighter type is adding to costs for India.
> 
> IAF really is stuck in a rut.


Ever since the news of acquisition of J10 was broken, the focus of discussion had been india & Rafale. But in my opinion the country who should be more worried than India is Taiwan. Remember PAF was not able to pitch F-16s in any Shaheen Exercises with China.
Having secured this deal now PAF can do F-16 vs J10 exercises internally. This in return might help China vis-a-vis Taiwan. Furthermore this deal has effectively killed any chance of V upgrades that some people were hoping for.

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## monitor

A much clear image
of a Pakistan AF J-10C (J-10CP ?). Here serial number 22-106

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## .King.

monitor said:


> View attachment 817031
> 
> 
> View attachment 817029
> 
> A much clear image
> of a Pakistan AF J-10C (J-10CP ?). Here serial number 22-106


Correct me if Im wrong, but this looks like a J10B, not a J 10C. The datalink antenna is missing.


----------



## Zarvan

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495342161826500615




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495367237083058178

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## Riz

Deino said:


> Another one ...
> 
> View attachment 817022


Seems im still dreaming

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## Zarvan

Areesh said:


> Waisai zarvan. Bura na maana bhai
> 
> Laikin ho tum bhi meera ki tarah poorai attention seeker
> 
> We don't validation from pajeets that we keep going to them to ask their opinion about our acquisitions


He often asks me questions that is why I tagged him this time. He knows I am member of this forum so some times asked the question.

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## SIPRA

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495367237083058178



Yeh Vishnu Som ki kyun phati parhi hae?

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## Areesh

Zarvan said:


> He often asks me questions that is why I tagged him this time. He knows I am member of this forum so some times asked the question.



No need to be obsessed with these pajeets so much

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## Reichsmarschall

Deino said:


> A bit bigger and modified
> 
> View attachment 817015


That paint scheme is hideous

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## Windjammer

Zarvan said:


> He often asks me questions that is why I tagged him this time. He knows I am member of this forum so some times asked the question.


You should have replied that we are paying for the Jets but China is throwing in these weapons for free.

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## Jinn Baba

Reichsmarschall said:


> That paint scheme is hideous



It seems to be the standard PAF scheme - same as Jf17 and similar to F16s.

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## MH.Yang

Princeps Senatus said:


> Probably not, nothing is as light nimble and agile as F-16



MIG-29?



That Guy said:


> This is correct.
> 
> On topic: another added benefit of having the J-10Cs is that they'll give PAF a good chance to train with and against a fighter that's very similar in capabilities to the Rafale.
> 
> If India doesn't get more rafales soon, which this thread has established that it won't for year's to come, then they really will have no choice but to buy another fighter type, which will mean even more logistical nightmares for the IAF. They can't get the numbers advantage for the Rafales due to the long waiting list, and buying yet another fighter type is adding to costs for India.
> 
> IAF really is stuck in a rut.



After the outbreak of the galawan Valley incident, the Chinese army and the Indian army faced off on the border. At that time, India had urgently purchased 12 SU-30MKI and 21 MiG-29 from Russia. 
Although India later cancelled the order, it has told us the answer.

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## .King.

MH.Yang said:


> MIG-29?


Yep, Mig 29s are extremely manoeuvrable with very high Thrust to Weight ratio. Good for dogfighting as well as gaining height to recommit in BVR.

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## Areesh

.King. said:


> Correct me if Im wrong, but this looks like a J10B, not a J 10C. The datalink antenna is missing.



It is a J10C

Data link thing has been discussed in previous pages


----------



## .King.

Areesh said:


> It is a J10C
> 
> Data link thing has been discussed in previous pages


Okay, thanks. Could you link any post around it? Or page number of nearby.... I wasnt around when this was discussed.


----------



## MH.Yang

.King. said:


> Yep, Mig 29s are extremely manoeuvrable with very high Thrust to Weight ratio. Good for dogfighting as well as gaining height to recommit in BVR.



It is difficult to compare the mobility of MIG29 and F16. 
The best mobility of F16 should be F16block30 (except F16VISTA), and the best mobility of MIG29 should be MIG29A (except MIG29OVT). 
Both should have the same level of mobility.

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## Scorpiooo

JohnWick said:


> That's why I always said to buy J-31 AKA J-35 5th gen platform so that we can threaten the existence of India


Will join eventually once inducted in Chinese navy and may be in air force, after that we may see them to order around 2025

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## Beast

Bob Bollusc said:


> J-10C is more advanced than any version of F-16 out there. Both structurally and in terms of avionics.


Yes , KLJ-10 AESA 1200 T/R module. The canard giving high vortex and gives is high AOA. Full digital flyby wire.

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## Windjammer

Seems the main landing gear on the J-10CP are different to the other versions, the CP landing gear resembles that of the JF-17.

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## serenity

Scorpiooo said:


> Will join eventually once inducted in Chinese navy and may be in air force, after that we may see them to order around 2025



Even 1000 J-35, F-22, F-35, Su-57, J-20 whatever used alone would not threaten the existence of any country let alone one the size of India.

It is simply a way to improve your airforce and so you can hold air superiority which in turn gives significant land and naval advantages (assuming navy is involved and air superiority is achieved over regional waters). That may help with such a war of conquest but even then there are millions of other factors to consider.

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## Areesh

.King. said:


> Okay, thanks. Could you link any post around it? Or page number of nearby.... I wasnt around when this was discussed.



You can use the search function

It is right on the top


----------



## cssniper

Source:
https://m.weibo.cn/7097016651/4739048738393111

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## Scorpiooo

serenity said:


> Even 1000 J-35, F-22, F-35, Su-57, J-20 whatever used alone would not threaten the existence of any country let alone one the size of India.
> 
> It is simply a way to improve your airforce and so you can hold air superiority which in turn gives significant land and naval advantages (assuming navy is involved and air superiority is achieved over regional waters). That may help with such a war of conquest but even then there are millions of other factors to consider.


Offcouse whatever we have or will induct in future will be in context of our defensive doctorain, and enough power that enemies don't take as for granted and try re invade us


----------



## One_Nation

Zarvan said:


> Delete the thread there are already several threads running on this same jet.


People are too eager to talk about it. One thread is not enough.


----------



## baqai

Deino said:


> Another one ...
> 
> View attachment 817022



lovely picture, is that black smoke i see behind? i thought this was only RD's issue? someone please educate me on this

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## Ali_Baba

That Guy said:


> This is correct.
> 
> On topic: another added benefit of having the J-10Cs is that they'll give PAF a good chance to train with and against a fighter that's very similar in capabilities to the Rafale.
> 
> If India doesn't get more rafales soon, which this thread has established that it won't for year's to come, then they really will have no choice but to buy another fighter type, which will mean even more logistical nightmares for the IAF. They can't get the numbers advantage for the Rafales due to the long waiting list, and buying yet another fighter type is adding to costs for India.
> 
> IAF really is stuck in a rut.



I would not discount India buying 2nd hand Rafales from France directly from French Airforce with France backfilling later with new builds to build up the fleet.

I would not discount India convincing UAE to give to India her manufacturing slots in "line with better relations" or even off a price premium for those slots(unlikey but hey - If Indians get desperate - maybe they wont penny pinch/haggle as if they are buying oranges at the local market ).

I would not discount France settting up a new manufacturing line if India gets serious and orders those 114 MMRCA(or what ever they are calling it these days) aircraft - which will make it worth while for France.

So - dont rule out more Rafales coming quickly - "that quickly" if the India babu's ever get their act together.

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## Beast

Hodor said:


> Umm second best? J-10 hasn't even landed yet ( no evidence so far ) and is no where being operational and you have decided to call it better than an aircraft that has been backbone of the air force for few decades now?


Why are you so defensive? You mean PAF need this bird to land at Pakistan before they really know what these J-10C can do? You mean PAF do not even know capabilities of these bird before decide to buy for them? Do you know what is called testing or test trial? I am sure PAF pilot send to evaluate J-10C are ace pilot of F-16 Blk 52 who do professional assessment of J-10C including fighter to fighter evaluation. 

If these J-10C cant even beat F-16 blk 52 hands down. I doubt PAF are willing to induct these birds.

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## Raja Porus

Big_bud said:


> For the first time PAF pilots will have another aircraft comparable to F16s. It would be interesting to see whether J10c is able to break the love affair of PAF pilots with F16s or not? I am sure we will see a shift where pilots will talk fondly about the J10s like they used to about F16s! Fondly going on and on telling its stories!


Old love dies hard..

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## M.AsfandYar

.King. said:


> Okay, thanks. Could you link any post around it? Or page number of nearby.... I wasnt around when this was discussed.


Link 17 will be installed, that is why it is missing. You would have to start at least 25 pages behind or even back. Try Search


----------



## MH.Yang

Beast said:


> Why are you so defensive? You mean PAF need this bird to land at Pakistan before they really know what these J-10C can do? You mean PAF do not even know capabilities of these bird before decide to buy for them? Do you know what is called testing or test trial? I am sure PAF pilot send to evaluate J-10C are ace pilot of F-16 Blk 52 who do professional assessment of J-10C including fighter to fighter evaluation.
> 
> If these J-10C cant even beat F-16 blk 52 hands down. I doubt PAF are willing to induct these birds.



Considering the advantages of AESA and missiles, I also believe that J10C air combat can win F16b52. 

However, the fact that J10C can win F16b52 in air combat does not mean that its ability is stronger than F16b52.

The role of fighters is not just air combat. 

In PLAAF's golden helmet competition, J10C often wins J16. Why do we still think J16 is a better fighter?

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## Deino

monitor said:


> View attachment 817031
> 
> 
> View attachment 817029
> 
> A much clear image
> of a Pakistan AF J-10C (J-10CP ?). Here serial number 22-106




When you are just copy & pasting my tweets, then mentioning the source would be too much?

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## Basel

Bob Bollusc said:


> JF-17 phases out F-7, Mirage III/V. J-10C phases out F-16.



Nope J-10C phases out mirages while complementing F-16s.


----------



## Beast

MH.Yang said:


> Considering the advantages of AESA and missiles, I also believe that J10C air combat can win F16b52.
> 
> However, the fact that J10C can win F16b52 in air combat does not mean that its ability is stronger than F16b52.
> 
> The role of fighters is not just air combat.
> 
> In PLAAF's golden helmet competition, J10C often wins J16. Why do we still think J16 is a better fighter?


Yes, I can agree but air superiority is always the top priority especially for PAF which can only inducted limited type of aircraft. The ground role of PAF can be handed to mostly JF-17 to handle.

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## araz

Hodor said:


> Umm second best? J-10 hasn't even landed yet ( no evidence so far ) and is no where being operational and you have decided to call it better than an aircraft that has been backbone of the air force for few decades now?
> 
> 
> View attachment 817009
> 
> 
> On a serious note, please support your claim with facts instead of making illogical comments of 100 J-10s > 10 F-16s.
> 
> 
> People need to realise that be it an F-7 or an F-16, all these aircrafts have and are serving the air force for so many years. And these all aircrafts are YOURS so why the constant hate towards specific platforms? I am sure after certain years you would be bullying JF-17 and J-10s as well without any proper logic.
> 
> *Why does the service years of an aircraft matter to you if that particular aircraft is still performing much better than your enemy's latest fighters? Do not forget, it was viper that saved your a**** in 2019. *
> 
> Why this debate anyways? Professionals at PAF don't engage in these useless talks so why us? This is totally waste of time and nothing else.
> 
> Most experts here agree that F-16 and J-10 are at par with eachother. Both have their Perks and they are here to compliment eachother not go against eachother.
> 
> If you want to engage in these debates, please stay with F-16 v Su30 or J-10 v Rafale.


In addition to your post I would reiterate that the 4 decades of experience on the 16s, the scores of pilots who have had 100s of hours on the platform, the technical expertise for repairs and maintenance means the 16s are still the spearhead of our attack. This might change in 3-5 years but as of now the 16s are our top dogs. Iagree that J10s are a more recent acquisition but getting used to the platform, its quirks, its/weaknesses and strengths, vetting to know its hardware and developing repair and maintenance infrastructure will take a lot of time.

A

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## python-000

Windjammer said:


> You should have replied that we are paying for the Jets but China is throwing in these weapons for free.
> 
> View attachment 817038


But China giving them to indian a** so hard absolutly free free free...😆

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## araz

Danish Moazzam said:


> One added advantage of J-10 is the sheer number of AC that the Chinese operate, They have grilled the plane and it will be updated as the mainstay single engine for PLAAF.
> Second advantage is in case of combat, PAF can always loan a few to boost number and establish deterrence and plan aggression.
> This flexibility is not available for any other AC. Even JF-17 does not provide that option. So a very sensible and calculated buy. 60 is a good enough number to train and establish the tactics and keep enough pilots that can fly this plane in combat at any given time.
> Integration with the chinese sub-system is another advantage. These are the things that IAF cannot do even after spending 10+ billion $


Bhai
No one loans/anybody anything without money or vested interests. Please rememeber that war in the Indo Pak context will nullify all these acquisitions. The lack of trust between the two will result in either no war or a terrifying Nuke exchange within days of initiation of hostilities.
A


----------



## Raja Porus



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## MH.Yang

Beast said:


> Yes, I can agree but air superiority is always the top priority especially for PAF which can only inducted limited type of aircraft. The ground role of PAF can be handed to mostly JF-17 to handle.


I don't agree with you. I think the opposite is true. 
For PAF, F16b52 is certainly more useful than J10C. Under the condition of limited budget, if I am the decision-maker of PAF, I will give priority to multifunctional medium fighter, that is F16.

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## NA71

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495367237083058178


Chaa Gaya zarvan

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## Riz

Credit mentioned on the picture

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## Beast

MH.Yang said:


> I don't agree with you. I think the opposite is true.
> For PAF, F16b52 is certainly more useful than J10C. Under the condition of limited budget, if I am the decision-maker of PAF, I will give priority to multifunctional medium fighter, that is F16.


Without air superiority, you can forget about other task.. Priority shall not be given to F-16, can PAF has a stable supple of spare from American given current situation? Why waste effort on something you will have more and more difficult or more expensive to maintain?

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## Chak Bamu

Bob Bollusc said:


> J-10C is American F-16 pilots wet dream.


Dude, why are you trolling? Are you a frustrated Indian, trying to provoke someone here? Let the discussion flow, don't be a prick.

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## That Guy

Bob Bollusc said:


> F-16 ain't gonna last forever. Only replacement of F-16 is J-10C. Besides, J-10C is every F-16 pilot's dream. J-10C is most advanced F-16 out there. Period.


I'm convinced you're @Tai Hai Chen aka @AUSTIN POWERS aka @ww3undertaker

@waz @The Eagle @Irfan Baloch please investigate this guy for ban evasion.

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## Riz

Chak Bamu said:


> Dude, why are you trolling? Are you a frustrated Indian, trying to provoke someone here? Let the discussion flow, don't be a prick.


He must be a shitt lover pajeet , let him stay here in this thread, we know how hard this thread is for these RSS madrasa extremists

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## Princeps Senatus

Bob Bollusc said:


> Pakistan only has 10 F-16C from 2010. They are too few and too old and too not advanced to be of any meaningful usage.


someone do a check on this guy seems like an indian larper to me


----------



## That Guy

Chak Bamu said:


> Dude, why are you trolling? Are you a frustrated Indian, trying to provoke someone here? Let the discussion flow, don't be a prick.


I'm convinced this guy is tai hai chen.

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## MH.Yang

Bob Bollusc said:


> Pakistan only has 10 F-16C from 2010. They are too few and too old and too not advanced to be of any meaningful usage.



Yes, PAF urgently needs a first-line fighter that can balance Rafale. That is also the reason why PAF bought J10c. 




Beast said:


> Without air superiority, you can forget about other task.. Priority shall not be given to F-16, can PAF has a stable supple of spare from American given current situation? Why waste effort on something you will have more and more difficult or more expensive to maintain?



I mean, the first choice of PAF should be F16b70/72. 
BTW: I personally like F16b60 best.


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## Riz

That Guy said:


> I'm convinced this guy is tai hai chen.


Spot on

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## Chak Bamu

That Guy said:


> I'm convinced this guy is tai hai chen.


He may well be. If he continues like this I think he will be banned, or at least should be.

Itni mirchain lag rahi hain to samnay aa kar baat karain. Yeh kya meesni mai ban kar jugtain laga rahi hai?

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## Basel

Bob Bollusc said:


> F-16 ain't gonna last forever. Only replacement of F-16 is J-10C. Besides, J-10C is every F-16 pilot's dream. J-10C is most advanced F-16 out there. Period.



PAF will replace F-16 with it's NGF program not with any 4++ gen fighters.

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## Beast

MH.Yang said:


> I mean, the first choice of PAF should be F16b70/72.
> BTW: I personally like F16b60 best.


What is you yr point when you know the current situation don't allows it? You are wasting bandwidth here.

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## Dual Wielder

Chak Bamu said:


> Dude, why are you trolling? Are you a frustrated Indian, trying to provoke someone here? Let the discussion flow, don't be ******



He reminds me of that Canadian troll 'undertakerfan...', (he later changed his username to something else) whom I believe was also a Bharti disguising himself as Chinese..

Edit: Tai hai chen was his name.. agree with @That Guy

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## MH.Yang

About Tai Hai Chen, I think Tai Hai Chen is a fake Chinese. 
He can't even read a Chinese classical word. He only knows Chinese that can be translated by Google. He is very familiar with Canada. 
I think he is an Indian Canadian.

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## aziqbal

J10C + JF17 Block III will be entering on mass in 2022 

I hope PAF have enough pilots to ensure smooth transition and no corner are cut in training 

we need to maintain our very high standard in operations but I am sure PAF has that covered 

just a thought since we are talking about very advanced aircraft with powerful ASEA radars

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## That Guy

MH.Yang said:


> About Tai Hai Chen, I think Tai Hai Chen is a fake Chinese.
> He can't even read a Chinese classical word. He only knows Chinese that can be translated by Google. He is very familiar with Canada.
> I think he is an Indian Canadian.


We know, we ALL know. He's a massive troll no one likes.

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## Aesterix

Windjammer said:


> A former RAF Tornado RIO, who participated in the Gulf War, told me that once he was monitoring a NATO plus USAF ordnance delivering exercise. He was on the observation tower near the firing range, at the end an F-16 was asked to do a flypast.... according to him the Viper flew some 25 Feet from the tower with afterburner.... He said he had flown in combat over Iraq, seen the likes of F-15, Hornets, Mirage 2000, but nothing gave him the goosebumps like F-16 did that day.


Matter of personal preference. I still like mirages.


----------



## lcloo

Dual Wielder said:


> He reminds me of that Canadian troll 'undertakerfan...', (he later changed his username to something else) whom I believe was also a Bharti disguising himself as Chinese..
> 
> Edit: Tai hai chen was his name.. agree with @That Guy


"Tai Hai" is a very degratory dirty word in Cantonese, a Chinese dialect commonly spoke in Canada. 

No Chinese would used this as their name. He is almost surely an Indian or someone trying to put China in bad light.

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## Aesterix

Zarvan said:


> He often asks me questions that is why I tagged him this time. He knows I am member of this forum so some times asked the question.


You did well.
Kept the decency and gave very good reply.

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## IbnAbdullah

Salaam


Took me a few days to get through the whole thread. Very entertaining though. 

My question is what role would J10CP fit in the PAF war doctrine? If operation 'swift retort' were to happen again with J10s present, what role would have gone to the J10s?

P.s @MastanKhan and @V. Makarov is there a reason why you both have the same profile picture? Is it a picture of you two? Thank you.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Trailer23 said:


> Bhai, I can go out today & buy myself the all new INFINITI QX50.
> 
> There's only one problem. With the increasing fuel prices, parts & maintenance - i'd be filing for bankruptcy by the end of the year.
> 
> For a country like Pakistan, EuroFighters are suicide.
> 
> And your above statement only covers the EuroFighter, but you didn't respond for Russia OR the US.


possibility of Western supplier keeps coming up and speculation hovers around Eurofighter and F-16 and I've been asking myself to throw in the Swedish Grippen or not and if I didnt and it turns out to be that then I will regret not taking the credit. OMG why Grippen when we already getting J-10? yes exactly, because we give Eurofighter a possibility. could've thrown used Mirage2000s from Ummah fleets but that too much OTT lol

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## Windjammer



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## Deino

Windjammer said:


> Seems the main landing gear on the J-10CP are different to the other versions, the CP landing gear resembles that of the JF-17.
> 
> View attachment 817048
> 
> 
> View attachment 817050




No, it's just on rotation in the top image

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## Talon

Beast said:


> Why are you so defensive? You mean PAF need this bird to land at Pakistan before they really know what these J-10C can do? You mean PAF do not even know capabilities of these bird before decide to buy for them? Do you know what is called testing or test trial? I am sure PAF pilot send to evaluate J-10C are ace pilot of F-16 Blk 52 who do professional assessment of J-10C including fighter to fighter evaluation.
> 
> If these J-10C cant even beat F-16 blk 52 hands down. I doubt PAF are willing to induct these birds.


When did I question J-10s capabilities or how much PAF knows about it? 

But knowing an aircraft's capabilities and having complete grip on the aircraft and knowing it inside out are two very different things. PAF knows every inch about the F-16, in the air as well as on ground. Can you say same for the J-10?

An aircraft having service tenure of 40 some years and an aircraft on which only a handful of pilots are operational yet , are being compared here by people,infact the new aircraft has been declared THE BEST. This is the same mindset Indian Pajeets have for Rafale.

And NO, most pilots sent for J-10 program are not from F-16, rather from your secondary fighter aircraft having Chinese origin.

Lastly, it can never be established which aircraft can beat which one. Even after all this support for this F-16, I never claimed it cannot be beaten by J-10 or it's superior to J-10. I even know of cases where a Hud Less and Radar Less Mirage iii beat the shit out of an MLUed F-16 in dogfight.



araz said:


> In addition to your post I would reiterate that the 4 decades of experience on the 16s, the scores of pilots who have had 100s of hours on the platform, the technical expertise for repairs and maintenance means the 16s are still the spearhead of our attack. This might change in 3-5 years but as of now the 16s are our top dogs. Iagree that J10s are a more recent acquisition but getting used to the platform, its quirks, its/weaknesses and strengths, vetting to know its hardware and developing repair and maintenance infrastructure will take a lot of time.
> 
> A


Agreed, most people here who still support the F-16 are those who have had direct/indirect experience with it in one way or another OTH it's haters are those who might not even have seen one IRL and keep ranting without any logic and understanding of aircrafts or combat aviation.

I am not belittling anyone and I agree everyone's got a right to opinion but at least come up with a good logic and state solid facts.



adelphi said:


> Ever since the news of acquisition of J10 was broken, the focus of discussion had been india & Rafale. But in my opinion the country who should be more worried than India is Taiwan. Remember PAF was not able to pitch F-16s in any Shaheen Exercises with China.
> Having secured this deal now PAF can do F-16 vs J10 exercises internally. This in return might help China vis-a-vis Taiwan. Furthermore this deal has effectively killed any chance of V upgrades that some people were hoping for.


F-16 has been pitched against J-10 but not C variant ( atleast not in my knowledge ).

It was A and guess who won?

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## Princeps Senatus

IbnAbdullah said:


> Salaam
> 
> 
> Took me a few days to get through the whole thread. Very entertaining though.
> 
> My question is what role would J10CP fit in the PAF war doctrine? If operation 'swift retort' were to happen again with J10s present, what role would have gone to the J10s?
> 
> P.s @MastanKhan and @V. Makarov is there a reason why you both have the same profile picture? Is it a picture of you two? Thank you.


fighter sweep

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## SABRE

Hodor said:


> When did I question J-10s capabilities or how much PAF knows about it?
> 
> But knowing an aircraft's capabilities and having complete grip on the aircraft and knowing it inside out are two very different things. PAF knows every inch about the F-16, in the air as well as on ground. Can you say same for the J-10?
> 
> An aircraft having service tenure of 40 some years and an aircraft on which only a handful of pilots are operational yet , are being compared here by people,infact the new aircraft has been declared THE BEST. This is the same mindset Indian Pajeets have for Rafale.
> 
> And NO, most pilots sent for J-10 program are not from F-16, rather from your secondary fighter aircraft having Chinese origin.
> 
> *Lastly, it can never be established which aircraft can beat which one. Even after all this support for this F-16, I never claimed it cannot be beaten by J-10 or it's superior to J-10. I even know of cases where a Hud Less and Radar Less Mirage iii beat the shit out of an MLUed F-16 in dogfight.*



In the end, a fighter aircraft is only as good as the pilot flying it. The USAF pilots flying T-38 Talons have defeated F-22s in air combat exercises. Talons were flown by seasoned F-22 pilots and the F-22s were flown by _*relatively*_ less experienced pilots.

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## Deino

That Guy said:


> I'm convinced you're @Tai Hai Chen aka @AUSTIN POWERS aka @ww3undertaker
> 
> @waz @The Eagle @Irfan Baloch please investigate this guy for ban evasion.





Chak Bamu said:


> Dude, why are you trolling? Are you a frustrated Indian, trying to provoke someone here? Let the discussion flow, don't be a prick.




Yes he is ... @The Eagle please ban him; I would do it on my own, but I'm not able to moderate here:

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## Princeps Senatus

knew something was fishy another indian jealous of our F-16s


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## Deino

Deino said:


> Another one ...
> 
> View attachment 817022




Interesting, since it seems to dump fuel before landing since it is not black but white or light grey and the WS-10 has such a device similar to the AL-31FN.

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## Beast

SABRE said:


> In the end, a fighter aircraft is only as good as the pilot flying it. The USAF pilots flying T-38 Talons have defeated F-22s in air combat exercises. Talons were flown by seasoned F-22 pilots and the F-22s were flown by _*relatively*_ less experienced pilots.


I think your scenario can only fit a WVR situation. No way, a T-38 can beat a F-22 in BVRAAM no matter what, unless F-22 malfunction.

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## Talon

IbnAbdullah said:


> Salaam
> 
> 
> Took me a few days to get through the whole thread. Very entertaining though.
> 
> My question is what role would J10CP fit in the PAF war doctrine? If operation 'swift retort' were to happen again with J10s present, what role would have gone to the J10s?
> 
> P.s @MastanKhan and @V. Makarov is there a reason why you both have the same profile picture? Is it a picture of you two? Thank you.


A-A


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## Aesterix

Deino said:


> Another one ...
> 
> View attachment 817022


Engine still smoking 😏


----------



## Ali_Baba

Hodor said:


> And NO, most pilots sent for J-10 program are not from F-16, rather from your secondary fighter aircraft having Chinese origin.



Interesting point - the best pilots to send over would be seasoned JF17 pilots as the avionics core between the J10 series and JF17 are very similar ( JF17 is derived from the original J10A and the question is have they now re-joined up between the J10C and JF17 Block III ? ). This will help to bring the pilots up to speed quickly as the MMI/symbology will be so similar.

Just look at the J10B cockpit - you can see alot of similarities with the JF17 cockpit in the MMI/symbology concepts.






The following is the original J10 cockpit and you can see the right hand side MFD is showing data "identically" what the JF17 Block I/II is ...






Original JF17 Cockpit :





Additionally - the PAF has been preparting for both the PL15 and AESA radar for some time now for the JF17 Block III - so those training pipelines have already been setup and pilots are being transitioned over and operational doctrines developed for these new platforms.

PAF is not having to learn a new aircraft like the J10C in the "same way that the IAF is having to learn the Rafale given the lineage and timelines between the lineage of the J10C and JF17 avionics" and Pakistan inputs to mature the J10B to J10C to get the plane they "want/need/understand".

The bulk of the "training of a JF17 Pilot to a J10 pilot - would centre around the kinematic performance of the aircraft and the engine on the platform", the rest of it would be known or very easy to pickup.

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## Beast

Aesterix said:


> Engine still smoking 😏


That is not smoking, its dumping fuel.

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## Deino

Aesterix said:


> Engine still smoking 😏




You missed my post below!



PAF J10CP - will perform flypast on 23rd March , 2022 l Shaikh Rasheed Ahmed



and here:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495443534836641802

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## NA71

from the Chinese perspective;

*Pakistan's acquisition of Chinese J-10C fighter jets significant for both sides: analysts*








Pakistan's acquisition of Chinese J-10C fighter jets significant for both sides: analysts - Global Times







www.globaltimes.cn





Chinese comparison

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495279197111029760

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## Beast

NA71 said:


> from the Chinese perspective;
> 
> *Pakistan's acquisition of Chinese J-10C fighter jets significant for both sides: analysts*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan's acquisition of Chinese J-10C fighter jets significant for both sides: analysts - Global Times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.globaltimes.cn


Actually, J-10 export only targets closed allies and selected partners. Chinese are more likely to keep J-10 a secret since it is one of our main fighter in the frontline. Export are always secondary. 









China offers fighters, training aircrafts, choppers and drones at the Singapore Airshow - Global Times







www.globaltimes.cn

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## Falcon26

IbnAbdullah said:


> Salaam
> 
> 
> Took me a few days to get through the whole thread. Very entertaining though.
> 
> My question is what role would J10CP fit in the PAF war doctrine? If operation 'swift retort' were to happen again with J10s present, what role would have gone to the J10s?
> 
> P.s @MastanKhan and @V. Makarov is there a reason why you both have the same profile picture? Is it a picture of you two? Thank you.



J-10c will provide top cover, F-16 and and JF-17 medium cover.

For the Indian Air Force, Tejas will provide ground cover as they will be riding on top of a truck 

Joke!

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## siegecrossbow

Aesterix said:


> Engine still smoking 😏



WS-10 does smoke, but not this much and not during landing but when engine is going from military thrust to after burner. I think this is fuel dump.

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## Beast

siegecrossbow said:


> WS-10 does smoke, but not this much and not during landing but when engine is going from military thrust to after burner. I think this is fuel dump.


In fact, every aero engines smoke, that included western and american engine. It just depend on how much.

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## siegecrossbow

Beast said:


> In fact, every aero engines smoke, that included western and american engine. It just depend on how much.



In my opinion as long as it isn’t visible from 5KM away it should be fine. For F-4 and Mig-29 the smoke was persistent and visible from a long distance, which exposed it during aerial combat.

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Irfan Baloch

SQ8 said:


> Its the same with anything - I told no one and landed in Pakistan and by the time I went back from the visit half of the 300+ people extended family knew even after we asked to tell no one.


try reverse psychology. it might work.



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 817122


seems like a photoshop. the flag on the tail is not faded and not aligned to distance and murky atmosphere. its made clearer to stand out as Pakistani flag. 
I hope I am wrong but every image shared so far seems to be photoshopped and slipped into the internet to be picked up by eager Pakistani boys to spread as authentic. 
I will like to see a motion clip with the flag as clear as that to convince myself. I am not doubting the hype at all I am just aware of the habit of shameless lying and exaggerating as a national habit.

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## SABRE

Beast said:


> I think your scenario can only fit a WVR situation. No way, a T-38 can beat a F-22 in BVRAAM no matter what, unless F-22 malfunction.



I believe it was WVR, yes. The details are available online. A simple google search can be useful if you are interested in the details.


----------



## Iron Shrappenel

Irfan Baloch said:


> try reverse psychology. it might work.
> 
> 
> seems like a photoshop. the flag on the tail is not faded and not aligned to distance and murky atmosphere. its made clearer to stand out as Pakistani flag.
> I hope I am wrong but every image shared so far seems to be photoshopped and slipped into the internet to be picked up by eager Pakistani boys to spread as authentic.
> I will like to see a motion clip with the flag as clear as that to convince myself. I am not doubting the hype at all I am just aware of the habit of shameless lying and exaggerating as a national habit.


Are you challenging Sheikh Saab ?!!? 23rd March it is then...


----------



## Genghis khan1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Wonderful a people that the americans are---they have miserably failed with managing pakistan---and for what----36 F16's---36 fckng lousy F16's that would not have made a hair move on the merican forehead---and yet they chose to do so.
> 
> The blamed pakistan for all their failures in AFG and made it their whipping boy---. Such a shame to do such a thing to an ally that would go all out to make the americans happy. Oh well.
> 
> First the Tomahawk---then the JF17 and now the J10's---and we may learn in a few years about a stealth helicopter---.
> 
> Only if Pakistan had opted for Yemen crisis---it would be militarily and financially secure to stand a major crisis.


US is running operation in every corner of the world. Pakistan is one of 195 countries. Let me put it this way without going into details. About 10+ years ago, while trying to get clearance to travel to Pakistan on a week leave, I was told by a person with a classified report on Pakistan, “_Relationship is Ok, but Pakistan(s) can go (turn) to shit anytime” _. That’s my travel advisory.

So this is where Pakistan stand as far as US is concerned, even before Bin-laden was found. So I wouldn’t sweat much over the relationships. Goras aren’t stupid, that have done their homework on country (economy, geopolitics, people sentiments and near term potential) before formulating their policy.

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## maverick1977

Falcon26 said:


> J-10c will provide top cover, F-16 and and JF-17 medium cover.
> 
> For the Indian Air Force, Tejas will provide ground cover as they will be riding on top of a truck
> 
> Joke!


they are going to use Tejas for decoys at the airport.. HAL will push them around using their employess or donkey cartsz

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## Genghis khan1

MastanKhan said:


> Only if Pakistan had opted for Yemen crisis---it would be militarily and financially secure to stand a major crisis.


… and Syria. 

I would have totally gone for a deal, that would have eliminated most if not all of Pakistan foreign debt. How is this country planning to survive while paying 45% of budget to foreign banks.

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## Irfan Baloch

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Wonderful a people that the americans are---they have miserably failed with managing pakistan---and for what----36 F16's---36 fckng lousy F16's that would not have made a hair move on the merican forehead---and yet they chose to do so.
> 
> The blamed pakistan for all their failures in AFG and made it their whipping boy---. Such a shame to do such a thing to an ally that would go all out to make the americans happy. Oh well.
> 
> First the Tomahawk---then the JF17 and now the J10's---and we may learn in a few years about a stealth helicopter---.
> 
> Only if Pakistan had opted for Yemen crisis---it would be militarily and financially secure to stand a major crisis.


after eating 100 onions and receiving 100 lashes , some say that Pakistan is getting a chance to rectify diplomatic mismanagement regarding Yemen Pakistan got cat lives you see.



NA71 said:


> .... Bhai..... Please.... Indians are also human.... Let them sleep peacefully....
> 
> 
> Welcome back to PDF... after long time.... bro
> 
> Latest hahal bird..... 😁
> View attachment 817002


I hope its genuine halal and not just a stamp on the tail of Chinese airforce jet by a Pakistani believer.

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## PakFactor

Irfan Baloch said:


> after eating 100 onions and receiving 100 lashes , some say that Pakistan is getting a chance to rectify diplomatic mismanagement regarding Yemen Pakistan got cat lives you see.
> 
> 
> I hope its genuine halal and not just a stamp on the tail of Chinese airforce jet by a Pakistani believer.



What your opinion on the Yemen thing MastanKhan keeps harping about?


----------



## MultaniGuy

Big_bud said:


> For the first time PAF pilots will have another aircraft comparable to F16s. It would be interesting to see whether J10c is able to break the love affair of PAF pilots with F16s or not? I am sure we will see a shift where pilots will talk fondly about the J10s like they used to about F16s! Fondly going on and on telling its stories!


Hopefully this will break whatever little leverage USA has over Pakistan.

Good riddance to bad garbage. USA military equipment comes with conditions.


----------



## PakFactor

Genghis khan1 said:


> US is running operation in every corner of the world. Pakistan is one of 195 countries. Let me put it this way without going into details. About 10+ years ago, while trying to get clearance to travel to Pakistan on a week leave, I was told by a person with a classified report on Pakistan, “_Relationship is Ok, but Pakistan(s) can go (turn) to shit anytime” _. That’s my travel advisory.
> 
> So this is where Pakistan stand as far as US is concerned, even before Bin-laden was found. So I wouldn’t sweat much over the relationships. Goras aren’t stupid, that have done their homework on country (economy, geopolitics, people sentiments and near term potential) before formulating their policy.



I would've put a bullet in that shit stains face.

They must be pretty pissed off at Pakistan seeing the end result of their Afghan adventure.

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## MultaniGuy

I'm surprised someone mentioned Tejas.

Tejas is a failed project.

JF-17 atleast got some export business contracts made.


----------



## RAMPAGE

Deino said:


> A bit bigger and modified


What is? The aircraft?


----------



## Irfan Baloch

PakFactor said:


> What your opinion on the Yemen thing MastanKhan keeps harping about?


my opinion about Mastan's commentary on Yemen is that he is very pragmatic and talks with pure national interest of Pakistan.
one can disagree with his opinion or choice of words but be prepared to defend the counter argument.



MultaniGuy said:


> I'm surprised someone mentioned Tejas.
> 
> Tejas is a failed project.
> 
> JF-17 atleast got some export business contracts made.


few exported units are not a measure of JF-17 success. its success is in its realistic goals and efficient project management and successful progression to block 3.

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## Talon

Hodor said:


> When did I question J-10s capabilities or how much PAF knows about it?
> 
> But knowing an aircraft's capabilities and having complete grip on the aircraft and knowing it inside out are two very different things. PAF knows every inch about the F-16, in the air as well as on ground. Can you say same for the J-10?
> 
> An aircraft having service tenure of 40 some years and an aircraft on which only a handful of pilots are operational yet , are being compared here by people,infact the new aircraft has been declared THE BEST. This is the same mindset Indian Pajeets have for Rafale.
> 
> And NO, most pilots sent for J-10 program are not from F-16, rather from your secondary fighter aircraft having Chinese origin.
> 
> Lastly, it can never be established which aircraft can beat which one. Even after all this support for this F-16, I never claimed it cannot be beaten by J-10 or it's superior to J-10. I even know of cases where a Hud Less and Radar Less Mirage iii beat the shit out of an MLUed F-16 in dogfight.
> 
> 
> Agreed, most people here who still support the F-16 are those who have had direct/indirect experience with it in one way or another OTH it's haters are those who might not even have seen one IRL and keep ranting without any logic and understanding of aircrafts or combat aviation.
> 
> I am not belittling anyone and I agree everyone's got a right to opinion but at least come up with a good logic and state solid facts.
> 
> 
> F-16 has been pitched against J-10 but not C variant ( atleast not in my knowledge ).
> 
> It was A and guess who won?


@Beast awaiting your reply .. I hope you don't go DEFENSIVE  



SABRE said:


> In the end, a fighter aircraft is only as good as the pilot flying it. The USAF pilots flying T-38 Talons have defeated F-22s in air combat exercises. Talons were flown by seasoned F-22 pilots and the F-22s were flown by _*relatively*_ less experienced pilots.


Friendly dogfights are simulated and results can be inaccurate/unrealistic due to obvious limitations.


----------



## TheTallGuy

NA71 said:


> .... Bhai..... Please.... Indians are also human.... Let them sleep peacefully....
> 
> 
> Welcome back to PDF... after long time.... bro
> 
> Latest hahal bird..... 😁
> View attachment 817002



You have no idea whats coming next

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## Big_bud

Princeps Senatus said:


> Probably not, nothing is as light nimble and agile as F-16



With J10A yes, J10C no. J10C would have better angle of attack and sustained turn rate with canard & delta wings + 140-145 KN of thrust. I think it would be significantly better than our F16s in flight envelope.



Reichsmarschall said:


> That paint scheme is hideous



Not hideous, but can do with an update. I think PAF chooses it purely on the basis that it is hard to spot on our skys. Although with WVR becoming a thing of past, no harm in upgrading them. I don't think any air force would purposefully put its top end BVR capable fighter in a WVR gamble. They would always finish them off from a distance if they can.

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## Big_bud

araz said:


> Bhai
> No one loans/anybody anything without money or vested interests. Please rememeber that war in the Indo Pak context will nullify all these acquisitions. The lack of trust between the two will result in either no war or a terrifying Nuke exchange within days of initiation of hostilities.
> A



How naïve and ultra stupid some people are? Did China hand over free ships to Pak navy as well? Free HQ9 as well? Free drones as well? Free Howitzers? Everyone knows this is how Pakistan military works. Acquisition costs are rarely made public. Funding sources are rarely discussed. Pakistan has been buying from Turkey & China a lot of equipment. No one gives anything to anyone for free! Indians love living in their illusions and pacify themselves with such silly statements. It took them years, close to a decade to finalise and obtain Rafales. Pakistan even with its weaker economy has obtained its counter within a year or 2. Thats the real shame they are trying to hide behind such statements. Let them burn, maybe we can drop off some burnols from our jf17s on to their air headquarters this time?


----------



## Iceman2

TheTallGuy said:


> You have no idea whats coming next


Eastern or western if you can please!


----------



## baqai

Iceman2 said:


> Eastern or western if you can please!



I would say .... both


----------



## Big_bud

TheTallGuy said:


> You have no idea whats coming next



Bhai mere ko tou bata dou koi? Kaan men bata dou kisi ko nai bataunga! Ye saray aa aa k teelian laga k ja rae hen? Bata koi nai ra? Mere ko bata dou taky men b randomly post kar sakun... _"You have no idea whats coming..."_ aur bhag jaun!

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## TheTallGuy

baqai said:


> I would say .... both


no western

in past from 2007-08 Force structure plans there is still a room for a squadron worth. which is not yet filled.

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## V. Makarov

IbnAbdullah said:


> P.s @MastanKhan and @V. Makarov is there a reason why you both have the same profile picture? Is it a picture of you two? Thank you.


Look closely.


----------



## TheTallGuy

Iceman2 said:


> Eastern or western if you can please!



wow still thinking western? have seen our national security policy ?? read it yes only 48-50 pages declassified out of 200

its all coming from PRC sir

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## Valiant

TheTallGuy said:


> wow still thinking western? have seen our national security policy ?? read it yes only 48-50 pages declassified out of 200
> 
> its all coming from PRC sir



More suspense!


----------



## Areesh

TheTallGuy said:


> wow still thinking western? have seen our national security policy ?? read it yes only 48-50 pages declassified out of 200
> 
> its all coming from PRC sir



FC31???


----------



## Iceman2

92 news reported that induction ceremony will happen next month and two squadrons at a time will be inducted one of jf-17 and other j-10

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## Areesh

Iceman2 said:


> 92 news reported that induction ceremony will happen next month and two squadrons at a time will be inducted one of jf-17 and other j-10



Next month???

Should have done on 27th February

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## Iceman2

TheTallGuy said:


> wow still thinking western? have seen our national security policy ?? read it yes only 48-50 pages declassified out of 200
> 
> its all coming from PRC sir


Phir to j-16/15 bachta hai bs


----------



## SABRE

Hodor said:


> @Beast
> *Friendly dogfights are simulated and results can be inaccurate/unrealistic due to obvious limitations.*


That is absolutely true. As I stated before, the Talons were flown by seasoned F-22 pilots who knew the aircraft inside out. Whereas the F-22s were flown by relatively newer pilots on the aircraft. There were other factors involved also. But in the end, those F-22s weren't playing sitting ducks.

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## Thorough Pro

People are only talking about J10's, the real thing that strengthens PAF's air dominance and superiority are;

a very potent self-protection jammer
a long-range jam-resistant AESA radar
highly maneuverable twin motor long sticks with their own hunter-killer AESA radars






V. Makarov said:


> Look closely.

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## Big_bud

IbnAbdullah said:


> Salaam
> 
> 
> Took me a few days to get through the whole thread. Very entertaining though.
> 
> My question is what role would J10CP fit in the PAF war doctrine? If operation 'swift retort' were to happen again with J10s present, what role would have gone to the J10s?
> 
> P.s @MastanKhan and @V. Makarov is there a reason why you both have the same profile picture? Is it a picture of you two? Thank you.



Its a very interesting question.

I think with S400, Rafales and meteor missile induction. The era of Mirages is absolutely gone. No one is sending a mirage into Indian airspace now onwards. Also, Jf-17 would not be the best choice either. I think we will see J10-c as primary interceptor. It would be used to intercept incoming enemy aircrafts. With PL15, Strong Aesa radar, and excellent manoeuvrability J10-c would be the best for this purpose. JF17 can accompany J10-c as a force multiplier. However we might see F16 role switching to an attack aircraft, going inside enemy airfield and bomb strategic locations. Why F16? because PAF is battle hardened and highly confident with F16s. The engine is strong and it has 9 hardpoints, enough to carry fuel tanks, SOWs and A2A missiles plus it can defend hard from incoming missiles. I think we will see F16 in a more offensive role. Unlike 29th Feb where we sent Mirages and JF17s for SOWs and f16s were protecting our airspace. 

Well, this is as per my limited knowledge. Maybe others can add onto it and correct if im wrong?

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## PWFI

Big_bud said:


> Its a very interesting question.
> 
> I think with S400, Rafales and meteor missile induction. The era of Mirages is absolutely gone. No one is sending a mirage into Indian airspace now onwards. Also, Jf-17 would not be the best choice either. I think we will see J10-c as primary interceptor. It would be used to intercept incoming enemy aircrafts. With PL15, Strong Aesa radar, and excellent manoeuvrability J10-c would be the best for this purpose. JF17 can accompany J10-c as a force multiplier. However we might see *F16 role switching to an attack aircraft,* going inside enemy airfield and bomb strategic locations. Why F16? because PAF is battle hardened and highly confident with F16s. The engine is strong and it has 9 hardpoints, enough to carry fuel tanks, *SOWs* and A2A missiles plus it can defend hard from incoming missiles. I think we will see F16 in a more offensive role. Unlike 29th Feb where we sent Mirages and JF17s for SOWs and f16s were protecting our airspace.
> 
> Well, this is as per my limited knowledge. Maybe others can add onto it and correct if im wrong?


If i am not wrong PAF don't have any SOWs integrated on it's F-16, correct me if i am wrong.

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## Big_bud

PWFI said:


> If i am not wrong PAF don't have any SOWs integrated on it's F-16, correct me if i am wrong.



Maybe someone can highlight what sort of bombs we have with F16s. If we don't have, we should obtain them. Maybe thats whats coming from the west? Haha..


----------



## Trailer23

Anyone know where @Imran Khan is?

Its not like him to miss out on all the action. His...er...expertise are greatly missed.
@The Eagle @waz @Foxtrot Alpha

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## ummarz

Big_bud said:


> With J10A yes, J10C no. J10C would have better angle of attack and sustained turn rate with canard & delta wings + 140-145 KN of thrust. I think it would be significantly better than our F16s in flight envelope.
> 
> 
> 
> Not hideous, but can do with an update. I think PAF chooses it purely on the basis that it is hard to spot on our skys. Although with WVR becoming a thing of past, no harm in upgrading them. I don't think any air force would purposefully put its top end BVR capable fighter in a WVR gamble. They would always finish them off from a distance if they can.


Good analysis, that paint job goes well with our smoggy skies lol. From what I know of J-10 I gotta agree with you, its a strong rate fighter like the EF2000 with a good quick turn around as well from the delta config.


----------



## IbnAbdullah

Salaam



V. Makarov said:


> Look closely.



I've tried to find anything different apsrt from the red eyes, but am struggling. Is it some famous album cover or something? I'm not really familiar with those much. Sorry for the odd question though just curious. Thanks.


----------



## V. Makarov

IbnAbdullah said:


> Salaam
> 
> 
> 
> I've tried to find anything different apsrt from the red eyes, but am struggling. Is it some famous album cover or something? I'm not really familiar with those much. Sorry for the odd question though just curious. Thanks.









*Cheech & Chong* are a comedy duo consisting of Cheech Marin and Tommy Chong. The duo found commercial and cultural success in the 1970s and 1980s with their stand-up routines, studio recordings, and feature films, which were based on the hippie and free love era, and especially drug and counterculture movements, most notably their love for cannabis.

A random weird video of theirs:

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## PakFactor

Irfan Baloch said:


> my opinion about Mastan's commentary on Yemen is that he is very pragmatic and talks with pure national interest of Pakistan.
> one can disagree with his opinion or choice of words but be prepared to defend the counter argument.
> 
> 
> few exported units are not a measure of JF-17 success. its success is in its realistic goals and efficient project management and successful progression to block 3.



Do you feel Pakistan should have gotten involved? Or we did right to stay back.


----------



## The Eagle

Deino said:


> Yes he is ... @The Eagle please ban him; I would do it on my own, but I'm not able to moderate here:



No IPs be shared please. He is already done

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## MastanKhan

PakFactor said:


> What your opinion on the Yemen thing MastanKhan keeps harping about?



Hi,

That would have could have resulted in a 100---150 K troops in GCC.

The income of those troops would have resulted in over 2-3 million jobs in pakistan and a massive influx of foreign exchange---.

That is why---I had stated many a time---Gen Raheel was an extremely stupid commander in chief who did not have the brains to understand the rewards in a timely manner.

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## Thorough Pro

the decision was taken by PMLN leadership Nawaz Shareef, not chief of Army Staff Gen RS




MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That would have could have resulted in a 100---150 K troops in GCC.
> 
> The income of those troops would have resulted in over 2-3 million jobs in pakistan and a massive influx of foreign exchange---.
> 
> That is why---I had stated many a time---Gen Raheel was an extremely stupid commander in chief who did not have the brains to understand the rewards in a timely manner.


----------



## JohnWick

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That would have could have resulted in a 100---150 K troops in GCC.
> 
> The income of those troops would have resulted in over 2-3 million jobs in pakistan and a massive influx of foreign exchange---.
> 
> That is why---I had stated many a time---Gen Raheel was an extremely stupid commander in chief who did not have the brains to understand the rewards in a timely manner.


So we are mercenaries, right?
In your sense ?

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## Khan vilatey

Big_bud said:


> Its a very interesting question.
> 
> I think with S400, Rafales and meteor missile induction. The era of Mirages is absolutely gone. No one is sending a mirage into Indian airspace now onwards. Also, Jf-17 would not be the best choice either. I think we will see J10-c as primary interceptor. It would be used to intercept incoming enemy aircrafts. With PL15, Strong Aesa radar, and excellent manoeuvrability J10-c would be the best for this purpose. JF17 can accompany J10-c as a force multiplier. However we might see F16 role switching to an attack aircraft, going inside enemy airfield and bomb strategic locations. Why F16? because PAF is battle hardened and highly confident with F16s. The engine is strong and it has 9 hardpoints, enough to carry fuel tanks, SOWs and A2A missiles plus it can defend hard from incoming missiles. I think we will see F16 in a more offensive role. Unlike 29th Feb where we sent Mirages and JF17s for SOWs and f16s were protecting our airspace.
> 
> Well, this is as per my limited knowledge. Maybe others can add onto it and correct if im wrong?


F-16s have no aerial refueling capability in the PAF and the block 52 with the body fitting configurable fuel tanks or something can’t be used in offensive roles due to the contracts PAF signed with America Bhadur. So it will need to be jf-17 block 4 with a bigger airframe and engine for strike roles or would have to be more j-10c. Some one said su-35s from China but I don’t think an aircraft like that is in Pakistans best interest

Also all the smart weapons on the f-16 use GPS which in war may not be available to Pakistan

K

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## Big_bud

Khan vilatey said:


> F-16s have no aerial refueling capability in the PAF and the block 52 with the body fitting configurable fuel tanks or something can’t be used in offensive roles due to the contracts PAF signed with America Bhadur. So it will need to be jf-17 block 4 with a bigger airframe and engine for strike roles or would have to be more j-10c. Some one said su-35s from China but I don’t think an aircraft like that is in Pakistans best interest
> 
> Also all the smart weapons on the f-16 use GPS which in war may not be available to Pakistan
> 
> K



Oh yes... Thats a bummer! I forgot about the contracts! Means JF it is for now! F16 would have made a great attack fighter though!


----------



## tphuang

There are some interesting points that I've noticed up thread.

First of all, I find this claim that J-10A lost to F-16 quite dubious. First of all, without knowing the pilots and the combat scenario, it's hard to say which aircraft is better from just a couple of exercises. Secondly, American officials would go ballistic if they found out PLAAF aircraft had access to F-16s in Pakistan hosted exercises. That might be the end of F-16 era at PAF. Chinese side maintains they've had minimal look or access to F-16. So my question really is how could J-10 have fought F-16 under all this American restrictions when nobody outside of China flew J-10s?

I can tell you there is definitely concern on Chinese side that American officials will get to see J-10Cs, since China does not put the same level of restriction on its J-10C usage as America does. By the way, when Pakistan is ready to purchase J-31 down the road. It will need to get rid of F-16s and all those accompanying American inspectors. If you think that's unfair, just take a look at the UAE/F-35 negotiation.

We have seen J-10C battle other aircraft. It has repeated successes against su-35s (and even J-16s to a certain degree) in Chinese DACT. It dominated Gripen according to the leaked reports. Amongst in service aircraft, it's probably the most capable A2A aircraft outside of J-20. The only reason you see PLAAF move away from J-10C is due to their need for longer ranged/higher payload aircraft. I think it should be a given that J-10C can dominate the less capable su-30MKI in air combat. I think JF-17 block 3 would be more than a match for MKI.

So, the question is how it will far against Rafale. I have a lot of respect for Rafale due to its ability in winning a lot of major export competitions around the world. I think it really separated itself from other eurocanards by deploying AESA radar back in 2013. PAF officials obviously see Rafale as a whole new level of threat that F-16 cannot counter. That's why they got J-10C. They must have had long looks at J-10C in all those Shaheen exercises. Having seen both Rafale and J-10C, I doubt PAF would order J-10C if it doesn't think J-10C can counter Rafale in the role of A2A combat. More importantly, J-10C will stay with PLAAF for many years. It will be upgraded to fire the latest missiles that China has. That's something PAF is unlikely to get with F-16s. Given the speed at which F-16s will likely leave USAF, do we think USAF will require F-16s to be upgraded to support their latest missiles? And more importantly, how long and difficult would it be for PAF to get the export permits for the latest American missiles? It would be very hard for me to see J-10C not having a big radar/EW suite/missile advantage over PAF F-16s. Would the F-16s even be favored over JF-17 Block 3 when the latter is using PL-10 and PL-15? I kind of doubt it. So when PAF is getting J-10Cs, it's not only purchasing the aircraft in its current iteration but also what it will be 4 or 5 years from now as Chinese military industrial complex continue to improve.

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## IbnAbdullah

Salaam



tphuang said:


> I can tell you there is definitely concern on Chinese side that American officials will get to see J-10Cs, since China does not put the same level of restriction on its J-10C usage as America does. By the way, when Pakistan is ready to purchase J-31 down the road. It will need to get rid of F-16s and all those accompanying American inspectors. If you think that's unfair, just take a look at the UAE/F-35 negotiation.



I think even if it hasn't been written in a formal document, it would be reasonable to assume that an understanding exists between China and Pakistan about the need to protect Chinese tech from American or foreign espionage. 

If it came to FC31 or a variation of it, it seems likely that it would be housed in a completely separate airbase with tighter security protocols.


----------



## Beast

Precisely, if J-10c offer over modest capabilities over JF-17 Blk 3. Might as well stick with a bigger order of Blk 3.

Why go for the hassle of inducting a new plane with need to setup separate different maintenance facilities since engine, airframe and radar are totally different between J-10C and JF-17 Blk 3.

What PAF wants from J-10C is air supremacy over South Asia skies.

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## PakFactor

Beast said:


> Precisely, if J-10c offer over modest capabilities over JF-17 Blk 3. Might as well stick with a bigger order of Blk 3.
> 
> Why go for the hassle of inducting a new plane with need to setup separate different maintenance facilities since engine, airframe and radar are totally different between J-10C and JF-17 Blk 3.
> 
> What PAF wants from J-10C is air supremacy over South Asia skies.



My only problem with JF-17 while it's a good aircraft is its limited loadout, the J-10C I also feel fills this gap as well.


----------



## Abid123

PakFactor said:


> My only problem with JF-17 while it's a good aircraft is its limited loadout, the J-10C I also feel fills this gap as well.


Should go for J-10C in large numbers.

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## Bossman

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That would have could have resulted in a 100---150 K troops in GCC.
> 
> The income of those troops would have resulted in over 2-3 million jobs in pakistan and a massive influx of foreign exchange---.
> 
> That is why---I had stated many a time---Gen Raheel was an extremely stupid commander in chief who did not have the brains to understand the rewards in a timely manner.



At the cost of 1000s of Pakistani soldiers dead, when we had internal issues and the Emiratis treating us like shit. Saudis and Emiratis have learned their lessons I.e. we told you so. hence they ( atleast the Saudis) have better respect for us. Don’t listen to Mastan, he is just a fake. As for the Emiratis they are going down a Rabbit hole from which they will not come out.

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## MultaniGuy

Bossman said:


> At the cost of 1000s of Pakistani soldiers dead, when we had internal issues and the Emiratis treating us like shit. Saudis and Emiratis have learned their lessons I.e. we told you so. hence they ( atleast the Saudis) have better respect for us. Don’t listen to Mastan, he is just a fake.


I do agree with you that the Saudis, and Emiratis call us "miskeen."
That is why we need to improve the condition of our country so we are better respected.

We did the right thing by staying out of Yemen.

Why should we get killed in someone else's war?

Do you see Saudis and Emiratis declaring war on India over Kashmir.

Or does Saudis and Emiratis give us fuel and other supplies when we are at war with India?

Exactly, Pakistan First. I couldn't give a damn for anyone else's country.

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## PakFactor

Abid123 said:


> Should go for J-10C in large numbers.



I would as well.


----------



## Madafacka Jones

PAC or CAC should develop F-15 style hardpoints for J-10, where you can mount up BVRs on the fuel tank rack, it would probably fix the load-out issues of the J-10 due to not having wingtips. 

Would be very useful on the JF-17 as well.


----------



## MultaniGuy

Bossman said:


> Don’t worry about the Saudis and Emiratis.? They are fake countries created by the British, especially the Emiratis. They know their survival depends on Washington and not Allah. The gulf countries are “Kanjer” countries. Don’t take them seriously.


Ha, and they rely on Indian beggars to run their economies and construction projects.
But the Europeans and North Americans in the gulf countries are treated with respect, lol.
And the Europeans and North Americans are paid astronomical salaries to teach in the Middle East.


----------



## MastanKhan

Bossman said:


> At the cost of 1000s of Pakistani soldiers dead, when we had internal issues and the Emiratis treating us like shit. Saudis and Emiratis have learned their lessons I.e. we told you so. hence they ( atleast the Saudis) have better respect for us. Don’t listen to Mastan, he is just a fake. As for the Emiratis they are going down a Rabbit hole from which they will not come out.



Hi,

Men die---that is what they are made for---Soldiers die---that is why they enlist.

In my close to 40 years in the US---I have never heard an american civilian or soldier ever claiming to fear death.

Who gives a sh-it about respect---.

You played them shi---tty---they will play you shi-tty when their time comes---.

What a cheap & pathetic mindset---.

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## MastanKhan

JohnWick said:


> So we are mercenaries, right?
> In your sense ?



Hi,

Was Sword of Islam a mercenary----. 

FYI---Actually all the great muslim conquerers were mercenaries---.

Surprised that neither your teachers & nor your parents taught you that.

Another thing---volunteers / enlisted men in the army are not mercenaries.

Was the pakistani Shia pilot Alwi that guy who shot down israeli aircraft during syrian ( a shia country ) air war a few decades ago---he was a mercenary---.

Pakistani shia boys going to iran and fighting against Iraq---those shia pakistani men were mercenaries.

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## jaybird

Madafacka Jones said:


> PAC or CAC should develop F-15 style hardpoints for J-10, where you can mount up BVRs on the fuel tank rack, it would probably fix the load-out issues of the J-10 due to not having wingtips.
> 
> Would be very useful on the JF-17 as well.



But J-10C do have Dual-Rack Pylons that can carry more Pl-15 missiles, just don't expect it to be a bomb truck aircraft like the heavy weight fighters such as F-15 and SU-27. There is only so much a medium weight single engine jet can carry and still be efficient in AA battle.

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## MultaniGuy

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Men die---that is what they are made for---Soldiers die---that is why they enlist.
> 
> In my close to 40 years in the US---I have never heard an american civilian or soldier ever claiming to fear death.
> 
> Who gives a sh-it about respect---.
> 
> You played them shi---tty---they will play you shi-tty when their time comes---.
> 
> What a cheap & pathetic mindset---.


Yeah Pakistanis being used by Iran for their agenda. How stupid can one get.


----------



## untitled

TheTallGuy said:


> You have no idea whats coming next


Last time when we were inducting JF-17s in the late 2000s, we were all expecting to have J-10s by 2014. Now that we are finally in the process of inducting J-10s how long are we going to take to induct a new fighter?


----------



## ziaulislam

Ali_Baba said:


> I would not discount India buying 2nd hand Rafales from France directly from French Airforce with France backfilling later with new builds to build up the fleet.
> 
> I would not discount India convincing UAE to give to India her manufacturing slots in "line with better relations" or even off a price premium for those slots(unlikey but hey - If Indians get desperate - maybe they wont penny pinch/haggle as if they are buying oranges at the local market ).
> 
> I would not discount France settting up a new manufacturing line if India gets serious and orders those 114 MMRCA(or what ever they are calling it these days) aircraft - which will make it worth while for France.
> 
> So - dont rule out more Rafales coming quickly - "that quickly" if the India babu's ever get their act together.


Then there is an option of used mirage2000 or mig29 or su30 and their own tejas

They have plenty of options hence why PAF keep things quiet


----------



## Madafacka Jones

jaybird said:


> But J-10C do have Dual-Rack Pylons that can carry more Pl-15 missiles, just don't expect it to be a bomb truck aircraft like the heavy weight fighters such as F-15 and SU-27. There is only so much a medium weight single engine jet can carry and still be efficient in AA battle.



Those dual racks take up additional hardpoints, this doesn't. This will be useful for air to ground roles, where the J-10s load-out is even worse than the F-16 due to it being a 'air superiority fighter', forget about Su-27 and F-15. 

Even if PAF only intends to use it for aerial combat, it never hurts to have such capability.


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## Waiting

The Eagle said:


> Not related and no black list at all. Only Indians can pray & wish till then. I don't know who told you that Pakistan is getting blacklist. Honestly, I only read political foul mouths & cheap propagandists doing so merely in PTI rivalry ( I don't mind for domestic consumption) but shaming us all before the world.


Sorry, I m also voter of PTI..you don't know me but you passed a decree. you don't understand what I wrote. I think these forums are for chosen one, so next I will be a silent spectator, plz carry on


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## Khan vilatey

Two thing I can not understand, India had s-300 deployed in Kashmir along with spider. They completely failed to detect and engage PAF successful air assault, why do we think that s-400 would be any better ? It’s till not part of an integrated defence system

The other thing I don’t understand is Pakistan has HQ-9p with a range of 250-300 kms, this is integrated with hq-16p for shorter range engagements 80kms . Why does India think anything like Balakot will be possible again, would Rafael’s be under significant threat within Pakistani territory 

K

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## Beast

PakFactor said:


> My only problem with JF-17 while it's a good aircraft is its limited loadout, the J-10C I also feel fills this gap as well.


J-10c primary role will always be air supremacy. I doubt PAF is going to risk J-10C going for strike role with it going to face full wrath of air defence. The only attack missile it will go is anti-radiation operation againsf SAM radar.

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## Khan vilatey

Beast said:


> J-10c primary role will always be air supremacy. I doubt PAF is going to risk J-10C going for strike role with it going to face full wrath of air defence. The only attack missile it will go is anti-radiation operation againsf SAM radar.


Then what would be the strike platform? 

K


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## Mentee

arjunk said:


> Besides it is still the second best fighter in the air force (for air to air), and is good at multirole tasks unlike the J-10 which is primarily suited for air to air missions.




Wait what? 


pakistani F16 is a multi role and the far superior j10/f17 isn't?


Which of the Pakistani f16 has an aesa , a plug and play capability or can carry alcm/ashm/h-4's or even air refuelling capability--------e.t.c ?


our's is at best a romanticized sniper with dropping pgm's here and there while the only leverage it has over jf17 is that of the range , payload and a diplomatic token of loyalty to the u.s to fetch financial assistance . And yeah how can we forget it contributed to create jobs for Pakistanis at L.M.

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## Goritoes

As the day is coming close...

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## Areesh

Khan vilatey said:


> India had s-300 deployed in Kashmir along with spider.



India deployed s300???

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## FuturePAF

Abid123 said:


> Should go for J-10C in large numbers.


Could be the plan. Stop at 50 or so block 3 for the JF-17 and start procuring more J-10s beyond that. Capping the JF-17 numbers around 180-190, and then building up the J-10 numbers to over a 100 wouldn’t be a bad plan.

For every 1 single seat fighter the PAF has approx. 2 pilots. If the PAF procures 100 J-10s, it could, in the event of hostilities, do a “Lend-Lease” and borrow a 100 J-10s from the PLAAF, to boost up its numbers for the duration of the conflict. 

But this strategy is only possible if we have enough pilots, infrastructure, and planning in place, ahead of time.

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## GumNaam

It seems like the J10Cs have a pretty complex electronic warfare suite integrated into the entire airframe and a reduced frontal RCS as mentioned towards the latter half of this video...

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## Chak Bamu

Thorough Pro said:


> the decision was taken by PMLN leadership Nawaz Shareef, not chief of Army Staff Gen RS


It was a decision by our parliament and it was the right & correct decision. Iran has done what it did & we are no longer constrained. There is a time for a correct decision. That decision was right at that time.

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## kursed

Beast said:


> Why are you so defensive? You mean PAF need this bird to land at Pakistan before they really know what these J-10C can do? You mean PAF do not even know capabilities of these bird before decide to buy for them? Do you know what is called testing or test trial? I am sure PAF pilot send to evaluate J-10C are ace pilot of F-16 Blk 52 who do professional assessment of J-10C including fighter to fighter evaluation.
> 
> If these J-10C cant even beat F-16 blk 52 hands down. I doubt PAF are willing to induct these birds.


Majority of J10CP pilots are F-16 pilots. Incl those who first evaluated the aircraft.

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## Salza

Ali_Baba said:


> Interesting point - the best pilots to send over would be seasoned JF17 pilots as the avionics core between the J10 series and JF17 are very similar ( JF17 is derived from the original J10A and the question is have they now re-joined up between the J10C and JF17 Block III ? ). This will help to bring the pilots up to speed quickly as the MMI/symbology will be so similar.
> 
> Just look at the J10B cockpit - you can see alot of similarities with the JF17 cockpit in the MMI/symbology concepts.
> 
> View attachment 817110
> 
> 
> The following is the original J10 cockpit and you can see the right hand side MFD is showing data "identically" what the JF17 Block I/II is ...
> 
> View attachment 817113
> 
> 
> Original JF17 Cockpit :
> 
> View attachment 817115
> 
> Additionally - the PAF has been preparting for both the PL15 and AESA radar for some time now for the JF17 Block III - so those training pipelines have already been setup and pilots are being transitioned over and operational doctrines developed for these new platforms.
> 
> PAF is not having to learn a new aircraft like the J10C in the "same way that the IAF is having to learn the Rafale given the lineage and timelines between the lineage of the J10C and JF17 avionics" and Pakistan inputs to mature the J10B to J10C to get the plane they "want/need/understand".
> 
> The bulk of the "training of a JF17 Pilot to a J10 pilot - would centre around the kinematic performance of the aircraft and the engine on the platform", the rest of it would be known or very easy to pickup.



This is actually very good analysis. Some of the people here having beeing saying that it will take 3-4 years for PAF to get used to J10s but infact it won't be the case since J10Cs essentially are Thunders on steriods with very much similar configuration. I think experienced thunder pilot complete transition to J10C will be 1-2 years at max so as for the support staff because of commonality of ecosytem in between thunders and J10s. Had we getting any flanker than situation would had been different.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

FuturePAF said:


> Could be the plan. Stop at 50 or so block 3 for the JF-17 and start procuring more J-10s beyond that. Capping the JF-17 numbers around 180-190, and then building up the J-10 numbers to over a 100 wouldn’t be a bad plan.
> 
> For every 1 single seat fighter the PAF has approx. 2 pilots. If the PAF procures 100 J-10s, it could, in the event of hostilities, do a “Lend-Lease” and borrow a 100 J-10s from the PLAAF, to boost up its numbers for the duration of the conflict.
> 
> But this strategy is only possible if we have enough pilots, infrastructure, and planning in place, ahead of time.


It seems the joint Sino-Pak plan is to have a PAF 100% balancing out the IAF! The USSR helped India similarly during 1971 war....

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## GumNaam

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> It seems the joint Sino-Pak plan is to have a PAF 100% balancing out the IAF! The USSR helped India similarly during 1971 war....


Agreed. seems like China's plan is to completely subdue india for multiple directions.

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## Ghessan

Saudi crown prince likely to visit Pakistan in March | The Express Tribune


Pakistan, sources added, is keen that Prince Mohammad bin Salman attends the Pakistan Day parade as a guest of honour on March 23




tribune.com.pk


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## GumNaam

Ghessan said:


> Saudi crown prince likely to visit Pakistan in March | The Express Tribune
> 
> 
> Pakistan, sources added, is keen that Prince Mohammad bin Salman attends the Pakistan Day parade as a guest of honour on March 23
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tribune.com.pk


mbs is gonna a guest at the March 23rd parade?

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## Zarvan

GumNaam said:


> mbs is gonna a guest at the March 23rd parade?


Yes work is being done to make that possible

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## Ghessan

GumNaam said:


> mbs is gonna a guest at the March 23rd parade?



not yet confirmed as per report. still both sides working on it. although his visit is due may be they are trying to manage it on 23 march.


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## That Guy

FuturePAF said:


> Could be the plan. Stop at 50 or so block 3 for the JF-17 and start procuring more J-10s beyond that. Capping the JF-17 numbers around 180-190, and then building up the J-10 numbers to over a 100 wouldn’t be a bad plan.
> 
> For every 1 single seat fighter the PAF has approx. 2 pilots. If the PAF procures 100 J-10s, it could, in the event of hostilities, do a “Lend-Lease” and borrow a 100 J-10s from the PLAAF, to boost up its numbers for the duration of the conflict.
> 
> But this strategy is only possible if we have enough pilots, infrastructure, and planning in place, ahead of time.


PAF still has a lot of aircraft to replace, why would it ever cap at 180-190 thunders, when that's nowhere near enough to replace older fighters? Even if they got 100 more J-10s, it still wouldn't be enough.

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## sneakerspark

Expect a surprise from PAF on account for Swift Retort Anniversary on 27th Feb. ☺️

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## NA71

sneakerspark said:


> Expect a surprise from PAF on account for Swift Retort Anniversary on 27th Feb. ☺️



May be we bring out 2nd pilot  ..yeh lo Shahzaz-ud-Din....

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## Ali_Baba

GumNaam said:


> It seems like the J10Cs have a pretty complex electronic warfare suite integrated into the entire airframe and a reduced frontal RCS as mentioned towards the latter half of this video...



Yes - the EW system is called 光谱 ! ( joke! ).

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## Corax

J-10C will also be used for SOW employment.

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## maverick1977

MBS will most likely be the Guest of honor during March23rd Parade show casing J10Cs and JF17 Blk3.

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## The Eagle

Waiting said:


> Sorry, I m also voter of PTI..you don't know me but you passed a decree. you don't understand what I wrote. I think these forums are for chosen one, so next I will be a silent spectator, plz carry on



It will be better to remain silent instead of predicting the wrong & becoming propaganda rumor mill. Whether you are PTI or not; this is about Pakistan. You are a PTI voter or not; do not misunderstand this place. Being a PTI voter doesn't keep you above Pakistan. I am not PTI voter and I say that. So, time to stop spreading sponsored rumors.

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## Iceman2

sneakerspark said:


> Expect a surprise from PAF on account for Swift Retort Anniversary on 27th Feb. ☺️


Don't think so the news channels reported first week of march for induction ceremony... 

Would be interesting to know what bajwa sb is upto in states as there was a planned visit on 20th I guess but no pictures are released till now


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## FuturePAF

That Guy said:


> PAF still has a lot of aircraft to replace, why would it ever cap at 180-190 thunders, when that's nowhere near enough to replace older fighters? Even if they got 100 more J-10s, it still wouldn't be enough.


If the PAF had to choose, after producing 190 Thunders and procuring 100 J-10s, what to procure afterwards, it would probably choose more J-10s (finances aside). If finances are an issue, then I agree, PAF would continue to keep building more JF-17 then procuring more J-10s.

Btw, how many squadrons does the PAF want to operate? If I remember correctly, for a long time it was 26 squadrons of 17 aircraft each or 442 aircraft. 75 of that is F-16s, which means we would need a total of 367 other Fighters. 25 J-10s and 30 Block 3 JF-17s plus the 138 current JF-17s means we need 174 more aircraft.

How do you see PAF filling that 174 aircraft requirement? If the PAF gets a new type it usually builds that type up to at least 90 aircraft if possible. Let’s say, based on past patterns, the PAF goes for 6 squadrons of J-10; 102 aircraft in total, the. What do you think it would procure afterwards? Another 99 JF-17 in that context wouldn’t seem illogical, but perhaps shortsighted consider the option to procure the J-31 to add a more qualitative platform.

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## That Guy

FuturePAF said:


> If the PAF had to choose, after producing 190 Thunders and procuring 100 J-10s, what to procure afterwards, it would probably choose more J-10s (finances aside). If finances are an issue, then I agree, PAF would continue to keep building more JF-17 then procuring more J-10s.
> 
> Btw, how many squadrons does the PAF want to operate? If I remember correctly, for a long time it was 26 squadrons of 17 aircraft each or 442 aircraft. 75 of that is F-16s, which means we would need a total of 367 other Fighters. 25 J-10s and 30 Block 3 JF-17s plus the 138 current JF-17s means we need 174 more aircraft.
> 
> How do you see PAF filling that 174 aircraft requirement? If the PAF gets a new type it usually builds that type up to at least 90 aircraft if possible. Let’s say, based on past patterns, the PAF goes for 6 squadrons of J-10; 102 aircraft in total, the. What do you think it would procure afterwards? Another 99 JF-17 in that context wouldn’t seem illogical, but perhaps shortsighted consider the option to procure the J-31 to add a more qualitative platform.


J-31 and pretty much any 5th gen is currently out of reach of Pakistan, mostly because they aren't ready for sale yet.

pakistan still has a huge amount of F-7s and mirages that need replacing, and Thunder is the easiest and cheapest way to do so. The purchase of J-10C is a good way to hasten the retirement of older fighters, but thunder remains the cheapest.

PAF has always set the number of thunder purchases at around 300.

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## Irfan Baloch

PakFactor said:


> Do you feel Pakistan should have gotten involved? Or we did right to stay back.


what matters is that we played very badly diplomatically.
there is a chance that we would've received coffins of our soldiers in hundreds and thousands and still would've failed to get any material or diplomatic support from Savvy Arabs,

by not joining we angered our Arab friends who are extremely vindictive and never forgive or forget and still picking up coffins of our soldiers and civilians.

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## sneakerspark

Iceman2 said:


> Don't think so the news channels reported first week of march for induction ceremony...
> 
> Would be interesting to know what bajwa sb is upto in states as there was a planned visit on 20th I guess but no pictures are released till now


You need aircrafts for Induction Ceremony. ☺️

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## Flight of falcon

Irfan Baloch said:


> what matters is that we played very badly diplomatically.
> there is a chance that we would've received coffins of our soldiers in hundreds and thousands and still would've failed to get any material or diplomatic support from Savvy Arabs,
> 
> by not joining we angered our Arab friends who are extremely vindictive and never forgive or forget and still picking up coffins of our soldiers and civilians.




Reminds me of this :










UAE minister warns Pakistan of ‘heavy price for ambiguous stand’ on Yemen


Tehran seems to be more important to Islamabad and Ankara than the Gulf countries, said UAE’s foreign affairs minister.



www.dawn.com

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

J10C , has delta wing , which tend to make a plane more agile and maneuverability, is higher. Also the Engines they have is a bit more powerful , so in hands of a experienced pilot , these birds will be great asset.

The J10CP Engine , is also able to do advance Engine Thrust , adjustments which allow pilots to perform *unique in flight moves for close Dog Fights *

The weapons package appear very similar to Thunders , but he J10C has more missile carriage, so it impacts individual missions slightly. If inducted in number the benefits will benefit Pakistan's Airforce over all capabilities.

Also J10C , can also fill roles which Mirages have with respect to anti , SAM delivery platform.

The Computer & Avionics package is very similar on both platforms , the block IIIs have enjoyed some impressive improvements so over all capabilities is boosted for PAF.

In term of similarities

F-16A/B ------------Successor --------------> *JF17-II / JF-III*
Mirage---------------Successor -------------->* J10CP*

**JF-17 Block III are suppose to be more advance then F16 C/D

Since we are upgrading our Jet from Mirage standard , last upgrade done in 90's to 2022 standard , for J10 , the upgrade is not only on *mechanical level* but *Avionics and on board computer systems* , and pilot's situational awareness

Originally many folks in 2009 claimed, Pakistan will fly almost 250 JF-17 Thunders Block *JF17-II / JF-III *by 2015

Still good *100 craft short* of target
Good 4-5 Year gap from targets due to decision to make *JF-17 2B* model and also a bit extra time needed for* JF-17 Block III*

It is fair to Assume , *30-75 J10CP* would be needed to balance the retirement of Mirage fleet

First batch is being inducted on March 23rd
Numbers could increase to match our current F16 Fleet Numbers


Possible future Configuration for PAF

*75- F16 C/D*
*100 - J10-CP*
*250 - JF17 Block II & JF17-Block III*
*??? - Azm [Design & Research Phase]*

Retired Or Sell to Friendly Airforce or reposition on Western Front 

Mirage
F-7P

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## Pakistan Space Agency

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495342161826500615



The insecurity of Indians shown in the comments. Most are either in shock or denial. That's before the jet has even landed in Pakistan.

That's one heck of a detterent.

I remember a time when Indians used to run to the seller to deny Pakistan the acquisition of weapons. They even used to brag about it. No such drama at play here. They must feel hopeless.

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## Readerdefence

Ghessan said:


> Saudi crown prince likely to visit Pakistan in March | The Express Tribune
> 
> 
> Pakistan, sources added, is keen that Prince Mohammad bin Salman attends the Pakistan Day parade as a guest of honour on March 23
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tribune.com.pk


Hi my friend guest of honour though military head been to India shaking hands and make defence pact with Indian army under the picture behind him signing of surrendering 
by TIGER Niazi don’t get me wrong 
we don’t even have that much leverage on Saudi army general to deny press picture under that particular picture of Pakistan army 
I’m shocked what were beloved and war on terror general doing in Saudi Arabia if he can’t ask Saudi general not to release those pictures 
if I say anything on this forum lots & lots will be after my posts 
but nobody willing to mention it
thanks & regards

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## Corax

IbnAbdullah said:


> Salaam
> 
> 
> Took me a few days to get through the whole thread. Very entertaining though.
> 
> My question is what role would J10CP fit in the PAF war doctrine? If operation 'swift retort' were to happen again with J10s present, what role would have gone to the J10s?
> 
> P.s @MastanKhan and @V. Makarov is there a reason why you both have the same profile picture? Is it a picture of you two? Thank you.



In my view, the entire rationale for opting for the J-10C is to plug a gap between the F-16s and the JF-17s. In order to understand this, we need to realise the matrix that the PAF has used in its calculus. 

While the F-16s (Block-52s and MLU versions) are the mainstay of the PAF's 'top-end' in terms of BVR and precision guided munitions, they lack the potential to employ SOW munitions, either from the US or the lack of being able to integrate locally produced versions (Raad, REK, etc). The most they can be used for is interdiction and ground support using the Sniper/Paveway/JDAM combo. Although this is fine in uncontested airspace and without the threat of strong IADS, it's not appropriate in high intensity conflicts, where SOWs are needed to destroy high valued targets amidst heavy A2A threats from safe distances (as demonstrated by Feb 2019).

Although the JF-17s have already been integrated with some SOWs (CM-400AKG) and most likely will be integrated with the updated Raad (if not already) as well as REK type guided weapons, the lightweight fighter airframe limits fuel (i.e. range) and payload capacity.

This is where the J-10C comes in - as a medium weight airframe, and devoid of any restrictions, the PAF can adapt it with locally produced and Chinese SOWs in strike missions. I'm not going to start another debate about whether the J-10C is a 'copy' of the Lavi, but what I would say is that the Lavi was actually designed with strike missions in mind. Have a look at the wing root structure of the Lavi and the J-10C and you'll find a similar design in terms of profile and chord thickness, designed to strengthen the wing for heavy loads and a higher fuel fraction. It is known that China used a lot of 'data' from the Lavi programme and incorporated it into the J-10C design. In addition, the greater ground clearance of the J-10C favours its strike load carrying capabilities. Moreover, future upgrades and weapons will be far easier to add than the Viper fleet, if any.

In my view, although the J-10C is a very capable A2A fighter (AESA, IRST, PL-15, datalink, etc), for the PAF its actual value comes in the form of a medium weight strike fighter capable of deploying SOWs, which the F-16 can not fulfil, and which the JF-17 may be limited in scope and performance. Therefore, the role of the Mirages in the strike role is likely to be phased out along with induction of the J-10C, and the Viper fleet is unlikely to see any further additions, either in airframes or avionics/weapon upgrades.

@Quwa

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## araz

NA71 said:


> from the Chinese perspective;
> 
> *Pakistan's acquisition of Chinese J-10C fighter jets significant for both sides: analysts*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan's acquisition of Chinese J-10C fighter jets significant for both sides: analysts - Global Times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.globaltimes.cn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese comparison
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495279197111029760
> View attachment 817116


Purely aesthetically the Rafale wins hands down. It is an amazingly beautiful plane.

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## Abid123

That Guy said:


> J-31 and pretty much any 5th gen is currently out of reach of Pakistan, mostly because they aren't ready for sale yet.
> 
> pakistan still has a huge amount of F-7s and mirages that need replacing, and Thunder is the easiest and cheapest way to do so. The purchase of J-10C is a good way to hasten the retirement of older fighters, but thunder remains the cheapest.
> 
> PAF has always set the number of thunder purchases at around 300.


Of course the JF-17 is a cheaper option, but it is not a better option. The J-10C is a superior aircraft. You can't compare a JF-17 to a "pure" air superiority fighter like the J-10C.

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## That Guy

Abid123 said:


> Of course the JF-17 is a cheaper option, but it is not a better option. The J-10C is a superior aircraft. You can't compare a JF-17 to a "pure" air superiority fighter like the J-10C.


PAF has always operated a mix of high-low fighters, the main bulk of the fighters in PAF will be Thunders (low), and a small amount will be made up of J-10s and f-16s (High).

Pakistan can't afford to buy 500 j-10s and replace their entire fleet with them.

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## PakFactor

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> J10C , has delta wing , which tend to make a plane more agile and maneuverability, is higher. Also the Engines they have is a bit more powerful , so in hands of a experienced pilot , these birds will be great asset.
> 
> The J10CP Engine , is also able to do advance Engine Thrust , adjustments which allow pilots to perform *unique in flight moves for close Dog Fights *
> 
> The weapons package appear very similar to Thunders , but he J10C has more missile carriage, so it impacts individual missions slightly. If inducted in number the benefits will benefit Pakistan's Airforce over all capabilities.
> 
> Also J10C , can also fill roles which Mirages have with respect to anti , SAM delivery platform.
> 
> The Computer & Avionics package is very similar on both platforms , the block IIIs have enjoyed some impressive improvements so over all capabilities is boosted for PAF.
> 
> In term of similarities
> 
> F-16A/B ------------Successor --------------> *JF17-II / JF-III*
> Mirage---------------Successor -------------->* J10CP*
> 
> **JF-17 Block III are suppose to be more advance then F16 C/D
> 
> Since we are upgrading our Jet from Mirage standard , last upgrade done in 90's to 2022 standard , for J10 , the upgrade is not only on *mechanical level* but *Avionics and on board computer systems* , and pilot's situational awareness
> 
> Originally many folks in 2009 claimed, Pakistan will fly almost 250 JF-17 Thunders Block *JF17-II / JF-III *by 2015
> 
> Still good *100 craft short* of target
> Good 4-5 Year gap from targets due to decision to make *JF-17 2B* model and also a bit extra time needed for* JF-17 Block III*
> 
> It is fair to Assume , *30-75 J10CP* would be needed to balance the retirement of Mirage fleet
> 
> First batch is being inducted on March 23rd
> Numbers could increase to match our current F16 Fleet Numbers
> 
> 
> Possible future Configuration for PAF
> 
> *75- F16 C/D*
> *100 - J10-CP*
> *250 - JF17 Block II & JF17-Block III*
> *??? - Azm [Design & Research Phase]*
> 
> Retired Or Sell to Friendly Airforce or reposition on Western Front
> 
> Mirage
> F-7P



Project Azm is dead so that take out of the picture for good at best case scenario it'll be an off the shelf Chinese option.

I would rather see:

- 75 F-16s
- 150 - J-10C
- 350 JF-17
- 100 - Stealth - Chinese

Total Force: 725 Combat Aircraft

The Jf-17 is more of a force multiplier in my opinion in the high-low mix.

Move the Mirages over to the Navy and create an independent Air Arm separate from the Air Force. I have been crying to this military establishment to get its own independent arm, cause that money on ships be going to waste without any air cover that tonnage in the ocean will be sitting duck.


----------



## NA71

PakFactor said:


> Project Azm is dead so that take out of the picture for good at best case scenario it'll be an off the shelf Chinese option.
> 
> I would rather see:
> 
> - 75 F-16s
> - 150 - J-10C
> - 350 JF-17
> - 100 - Stealth - Chinese
> 
> Total Force: 725 Combat Aircraft
> 
> The Jf-17 is more of a force multiplier in my opinion in the high-low mix.
> 
> Move the Mirages over to the Navy and create an independent Air Arm separate from the Air Force. I have been crying to this military establishment to get its own independent arm, cause that money on ships be going to waste without any air cover that tonnage in the ocean will be sitting duck.


Azm is not dead... but delayed.... The resources are directed towards "off the shelf options" ...including Emphasis on Naval Air Arm

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## PakFactor

NA71 said:


> Azm is not dead... but delayed.... The resources are directed towards "off the shelf options" ...including Emphasis on Naval Air Arm



Its dead key people have left the team and went else-were @JamD and others know.


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## NA71

PakFactor said:


> Its dead key people have left the team and went else-were @JamD and others know.


Updates kuch aur hein.... 😁

PAF is full of surprises.

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## JamD

PakFactor said:


> Its dead key people have left the team and went else-were @JamD and others know.


Actually, I don't know. I haven't been able to confirm or deny anything. Death of Azm was a claim made by @PanzerKiel .

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## PakFactor

JamD said:


> Actually, I don't know. I haven't been able to confirm or deny anything. Death of Azm was a claim made by @PanzerKiel .



Your right, he did state it don't know why his name slipped my mind.

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## Ghessan

Readerdefence said:


> Hi my friend guest of honour though military head been to India shaking hands and make defence pact with Indian army under the picture behind him signing of surrendering
> by TIGER Niazi don’t get me wrong
> we don’t even have that much leverage on Saudi army general to deny press picture under that particular picture of Pakistan army
> I’m shocked what were beloved and war on terror general doing in Saudi Arabia if he can’t ask Saudi general not to release those pictures
> if I say anything on this forum lots & lots will be after my posts
> but nobody willing to mention it
> thanks & regards


Let them taste the Indian flavor. If they are willing to be in the bed with them let them be.
MBS is running to fast, not good for him. They were pissing last time when trump threaten to take back their security. He showed them their real worth.
When it comes to face the front whole peninsula is on their knees then what are they good at.
Politics is another field it keeps going whatever develops on other aspects, so let it be.


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## Salza

Clutch said:


> Pretty good analysis done here on the new batch of J-10C for PAF based on recent leaked pics.
> 
> 
> 
> First take:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> .
> .
> Update 2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> .
> .
> Update 3:


Who is this dude ? He is copying everything from PDF

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## Clutch

Salza said:


> Who is this dude ? He is copying everything from PDF



He is someone promoting PAF and Pakistan. That should be enough. Let's not start the Pakistani Dalit habit of tearing our own down while worshiping whitie....

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## Khan vilatey

Clutch said:


> He is someone promoting PAF and Pakistan. That should be enough. Let's not start the Pakistani Dalit habit of tearing our own down while worshiping whitie....


@Dalit i did not know you were worshiping whites…. Is this a new thing…… I call dibs on Julia and Emma Roberts……. Joking aside, though I don’t always agree with your assessment, I still believe you have a strong voice in this discourse 

K



Clutch said:


> Pretty good analysis done here on the new batch of J-10C for PAF based on recent leaked pics.
> 
> 
> 
> First take:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> .
> .
> Update 2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> .
> .
> Update 3:


Yes his analysis is pretty shit I like advance Pakistan as there is thinking there, dekho suno jano is also very good.

When I want to listen to the ISI directly i tune in haqeeqat tv 

K

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## Luosifen

Has the PAF ever gone up against F-22s and F-35s in exercises? I have a feeling the next Shaheen exercises might pit PAF J-10CPs against PLAAF J-20s towards the end to give a feel for what going up against a stealth fighter is like in non-stealth if they haven't experienced it yet (as well as promote the need for PAF to acquire FC-31s).

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## GumNaam

NA71 said:


> Azm is not dead... but delayed.... The resources are directed towards "off the shelf options" ...including Emphasis on Naval Air Arm


AZM is Pakistan's skunkworks, there isn't gonna be any info coming out any time soon...we need to have patience.

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## Raider 21

Luosifen said:


> Has the PAF ever gone up against F-22s and F-35s in exercises? I have a feeling the next Shaheen exercises might pit PAF J-10CPs against PLAAF J-20s towards the end to give a feel for what going up against a stealth fighter is like in non-stealth if they haven't experienced it yet (as well as promote the need for PAF to acquire FC-31s).


F-22 at ATLC 2009 in UAE

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## Dalit

Clutch said:


> He is someone promoting PAF and Pakistan. That should be enough. Let's not start the Pakistani Dalit habit of tearing our own down while worshiping whitie....



When did I worship white? I usually take them apart.

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## Irfan Baloch

Readerdefence said:


> Hi my friend guest of honour though military head been to India shaking hands and make defence pact with Indian army under the picture behind him signing of surrendering
> by TIGER Niazi don’t get me wrong
> we don’t even have that much leverage on Saudi army general to deny press picture under that particular picture of Pakistan army
> I’m shocked what were beloved and war on terror general doing in Saudi Arabia if he can’t ask Saudi general not to release those pictures
> if I say anything on this forum lots & lots will be after my posts
> but nobody willing to mention it
> thanks & regards


both were trolling Pakistan due to placement of that picture

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

NA71 said:


> 31st


Wow we are getting more than 25 ?


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## Clutch

Dalit said:


> When did I worship white? I usually take them apart.



I didn't say you do. I only said let's not start.

Actually, I didn't even mention you.


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## Deino

NA71 said:


> 31st halal dragon
> View attachment 817320




What do you mean with 31st "halal dragon?

If you want to assume it is one for Pakistan, then you are wrong since it is a Batch 04 - indeed no. 31 within that batch - J-10C, but that batch was produced in late 2019 (between October and December most likely), so it is surely not one for Pakistan.

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## Clutch

Khan vilatey said:


> Yes his analysis is pretty shit I like advance Pakistan as there is thinking there, dekho suno jano is also very good.
> 
> When I want to listen to the ISI directly i tune in haqeeqat tv



Let's not tear others down. Show us your analysis. Let's see if you do better. If not... Then...


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## PakFactor

NA71 said:


> 31st halal dragon
> View attachment 817320



Wait that starting with "4" we are getting the "7" batch from the earlier reports.


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## MultaniGuy

Atleast USA will lose leverage over Pakistan.

J-10C I believe is in the same class as the F-16. Or something comparable to that.

Good Riddance to USA.

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## NA71

Deino said:


> What do you mean with 31st "halal dragon?
> 
> If you want to assume it is one for Pakistan, then you are wrong since it is a Batch 04 - indeed no. 31 within that batch - J-10C, but that batch was produced in late 2019 (between October and December most likely), so it is surely not one for Pakistan.




You are right..... Post deleted.

Sometimes copy-paste back fires😜

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## Basel

TheTallGuy said:


> no western
> 
> in past from 2007-08 Force structure plans there is still a room for a squadron worth. which is not yet filled.



So 18 F-16s are possible??


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## HaMoTZeMaS

serenity said:


> That's quite true but it's not just the West. For example mainland China secured more investment from Japan, Hong Kong and places like Taiwan, Singapore, and South Korea than China received from the West.
> 
> People think only the West has money. At the moment East Asia has more money than the combined West. We hold over 30 trillion US dollars in the form of debt and equity of Western... well everything. Just from being a creditor and owner (even at least partial owner) of many Western companies and assets.
> 
> Today, Japan + China + South Korea + Taiwan + Singapore is already bigger than USA or the entire EU. Once we account for PPP, China's intentionally deflated currency, and the fact that China and Japan own so much of the USA not even counting equity, the difference is even more massive.
> 
> Now the question really is, how does a country attract investment and also become very productive. China was both attractive to investment and extremely productive and industrial. The cost is hard work and this work by even hardworking western standards was epic. Backbreaking hardwork and saving for at least three whole generations close to 2 billion people cycling through this three generations to turn this around. They also saved and invested that money very well. Diversified and gambled well with good payoffs and returns. Invested in the future and useful things. Not blowing it on lamborghinis like some new rich. However China's newer generations are accustomed to comfort BUT they are smart and also work hard! This at least has been passed on to this generation and while they spend more, nationalism has trended to China's favor as well.
> 
> I do not think South Asians work quite as hard overall! many smarter and more hardworking south asians than east asians but as a whole there really is quite a cultural and maybe even environmental and genetic difference that contribute to work ethic patterns and general social behavior. Japan is excellent example. China is only beginning this journey and while maybe only 20% to 30% of citizens are at Japan's level of productivity and hard working, it's already a significant difference to many other neighbors. I have worked in China, Singapore, and Australia. The difference is huge. Singapore easily top of these three followed closely by China. This is just medium level stuff. With high tier industries, China's work ethic would beat Singapore and it is to the point of being too straining. But this is also why there is progress.
> 
> Taiwan now receives much more mainland investment than US investment. Japan also invested in China more than USA. Germany roughly the same as USA during those 1980s to 2000s era. Taiwan too. Can Pakistan make itself attractive to investment and make use of everything? Make itself productive, properly use investment, learn, adapt, change, progress and work very hard for next 100 years? China had bigger population advantage but this is as much a problem as it is a strength. There is absolutely no such thing as population dividend when it is mostly unruly, unintelligent, uneducated, disorganized, and complains a lot. China started with 80% of its population like that. Authoritarianism worked well for China because luckily we had good leaders that wielded that power more well than they did poorly.
> 
> I think there are so many things for other now poor and chaotic countries to begin the journey. It's like the conditions a planet needs to evolve intelligent life. It require billions of factors working together and net effect in that direction over time. It cannot even be allowed to take that long as disrupting events from negative forces come on a cycle too.
> 
> After China, not a single country has even gone from poverty to middle income. African countries have improved a lot but not at middle income level. Thailand, Malaysia and some others were already middle income before China even got to middle income status. China's the only one to have done it after Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore and those guys didn't have many sanctions and bans to deal with since the 1960s like China has had to. They also had a much smaller population which is easier to convert.
> 
> India will never get to above middle income unless it is the will of all the major powers. It isn't simply a work hard and it will come formula. And even that, India and lots of now poor nations do not have that could compare to what China and South Korea had to go through.
> 
> But Pakistan has one advantage, China's favor. It isn't attracting Chinese investment though only geopolitically derived investments and agreements. To start the journey, Pakistan would at least need lots of foreign investment from major economic powers. Since EU and USA will not be involved with that, China may but so far it has not shown interest. After all, China is nowhere near as rich as the western nations on a per capita basis and has a bit more work left to do to get to that level.
> 
> Throughout history, wealth has concentrated in only some parts of the world and never spread throughout it. However India and Pakistan were a part of those wealthy long in the past before the British and Europeans stole almost everything. So clearly South Asia had the stuff it takes in the past but it's much harder for pauper to climb to billionaire than other direction right? The building of momentum to regain that is much more difficult to potentially impossible. India really should demand Britain not only apologize but pay back even half of the damage they did and what they stole from India. Without the British involved in Asia and colonialism, half our current troubles would not even exist. Of course they would never do such a thing now they have the riches and power. And India... goodness what has become of you in the last ten years. Imperialism changed and destroyed India not just physically but ruined its psyche too not just for indians but even neighbors. Anyway that's another story.
> 
> I think no country will follow that path unless they first begin with internal structural and cultural change. South Korea, Singapore, and Taiwan were fiercely authoritarian and had reform after reform to start this journey. East Asians are a bit more practical and realistic, less delusional about things and probably this helped in finding the problems and knowing what the true problems are before starting the reforms and structural changes to begin the journey. Otherwise you will never compete and be appealing for money. Money does make the world go around even if it is not everything, but without money everything is also unavailable.


West has money but consumer base is of just high value items
meanwhile, East has Population .. aka consumer base of basic and mediocre items 
larger the consumer base the highest the market flow of money
East is more suitable for businesses


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## HaMoTZeMaS

Deino said:


> Another one ...
> 
> View attachment 817022


Black Smoke ... Again?


----------



## TheTallGuy

Basel said:


> So 18 F-16s are possible??


The train has left for good.

what i was saying that after 54+6 J10CP there is still room for 1 x sqn worth of aircraft. it will not be J10CP

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## Iron Shrappenel

HaMoTZeMaS said:


> Black Smoke ... Again?


Fuel dump... And that isn't black

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## TheTallGuy

@Deino 
i want to increase my knowledge

Any estimate how many were and will be produced in 7th Batch? and any news of 8th Batch.


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## Basel

TheTallGuy said:


> The train has left for good.
> 
> what i was saying that after 54+6 J10CP there is still room for 1 x sqn worth of aircraft. it will not be J10CP



Some posters are indicating that a western Aircraft may be joining PAF and F-16 new or used is only logical option if things go good between US and Pakistan.


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## HaMoTZeMaS

Iron Shrappenel said:


> Fuel dump... And that isn't black


for a moment, my heart was gotten broken

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## Materialistic

Big_bud said:


> Its a very interesting question.
> 
> I think with S400, Rafales and meteor missile induction. The era of Mirages is absolutely gone. No one is sending a mirage into Indian airspace now onwards. Also, Jf-17 would not be the best choice either. I think we will see J10-c as primary interceptor. It would be used to intercept incoming enemy aircrafts. With PL15, Strong Aesa radar, and excellent manoeuvrability J10-c would be the best for this purpose. JF17 can accompany J10-c as a force multiplier. However we might see F16 role switching to an attack aircraft, going inside enemy airfield and bomb strategic locations. Why F16? because PAF is battle hardened and highly confident with F16s. The engine is strong and it has 9 hardpoints, enough to carry fuel tanks, SOWs and A2A missiles plus it can defend hard from incoming missiles. I think we will see F16 in a more offensive role. Unlike 29th Feb where we sent Mirages and JF17s for SOWs and f16s were protecting our airspace.
> 
> Well, this is as per my limited knowledge. Maybe others can add onto it and correct if im wrong?



Its exactly the opposite. 

Paf wouldn't risk US involvement embargoes etc. Hence, F16 won't be used for offensive against a US ally. This is most probably why they were in our skies during feb2019.

And now when we have 2 aircrafts with AESA+PL-15 that makes them a better option. Therefore, F16 might be retained for defensive role like interception, sounds weird I know.

And naturally when f16's take the back seat then J10s are best to take its role and jf17s could be used to compliment them as well as for SOW - perhaps. I don't think paf would send mirages now in a heavily contested airspace and might get the job done through thunders or dragons, especially in the presence of s400s.

My 2 cents!

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## HaMoTZeMaS

Readerdefence said:


> Hi my friend guest of honour though military head been to India shaking hands and make defence pact with Indian army under the picture behind him signing of surrendering
> by TIGER Niazi don’t get me wrong
> we don’t even have that much leverage on Saudi army general to deny press picture under that particular picture of Pakistan army
> I’m shocked what were beloved and war on terror general doing in Saudi Arabia if he can’t ask Saudi general not to release those pictures
> if I say anything on this forum lots & lots will be after my posts
> but nobody willing to mention it
> thanks & regards


Have you seen God Father.. Keep you friends close and your enemies ...........


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## maverick1977

NA71 said:


> Azm is not dead... but delayed.... The resources are directed towards "off the shelf options" ...including Emphasis on Naval Air Arm




can u share more about it ?


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## Big_bud

Materialistic said:


> Its exactly the opposite.
> 
> Paf wouldn't risk US involvement embargoes etc. Hence, F16 won't be used for offensive against a US ally. This is most probably why they were in our skies during feb2019.
> 
> And now when we have 2 aircrafts with AESA+PL-15 that makes them a better option. Therefore, F16 might be retained for defensive role like interception, sounds weird I know.
> 
> And naturally when f16's take the back seat then J10s are best to take its role and jf17s could be used to compliment them as well as for SOW - perhaps. I don't think paf would send mirages now in a heavily contested airspace and might get the job done through thunders or dragons, especially in the presence of s400s.
> 
> My 2 cents!



You are right, those contracts and uncle SAMs interference is an issue. But I recall some analysts and air force veterans denied any such restrictions being part of the contract when 29th Feb happened. Are the details of that contract public? Does it explicitly bound us? If F16s were not bought to be used against India then why did we buy them in the first place? Considering our long history or wars with India. Is it speculated or confirmed information?

Here's an interesting read:



India and the US-Pakistan F-16 Agreement



Also, almost always India would invade our airspace and try to bomb our installations first. Wouldn't a counter attack on their airports be considered a defensive role? Its a legal matter and contestable. We will not be going on an invasion spree. We are retaliating against a force who is attacking us. There is a lot of space for Pakistan to contest this. But would we? Thats the thing.

Maybe we wouldn't take risk considering Uncle SAMs closing ties with India and moodiness. However, once we induct J10cs in numbers, we already have replacement of F16s. Its not the only platform we are relying on for our defence. Hence we can be more risky with F16s.


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## Dual Wielder

Materialistic said:


> . I don't think paf would send mirages now in a heavily contested airspace and might get the job done through thunders or dragons, especially in the presence of s400s.



The mirages could be converted to khud kushi huwai jahaz.. with the sole purpose of taking out enemy prized assets..

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## maverick1977

Dual Wielder said:


> The mirages could be converted to khud kushi huwai jahaz.. with the sole purpose of taking out enemy prized assets..




Lets do better, convert them to drones equipped with Raads and controlled by AwaCs or forward based JF17s via datalink ?

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## Bossman

MultaniGuy said:


> Atleast USA will lose leverage over Pakistan.
> 
> J-10C I believe is in the same class as the F-16. Or something comparable to that.
> 
> Good Riddance to USA.



With the US it’s not about leverage any more they might just want to retain a connection with Pakistan and F16 are the best way to do so. US is totally lacking imagination to deal with the challenges it faces. They are pulling out the Cold War playbook to deal with China, whereas the threat is totally different.

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## PakFactor

Bossman said:


> With the US it’s not about leverage any more they might just want to retain a connection with Pakistan and F16 are the best way to do so. US is totally lacking imagination to deal with the challenges it faces. They are pulling out the Cold War playbook to deal with China, whereas the threat is totally different.



They've lost their balance and made an enemy of 1.2B Muslims & 1.2B Chinese, while the Muslim leadership are cucks the ground reality is a lot different.


----------



## Deino

TheTallGuy said:


> @Deino
> i want to increase my knowledge
> 
> Any estimate how many were and will be produced in 7th Batch? and any news of 8th Batch.




Good question ... as it seems, the previous batches from Batch 03 on all had about 40 aircraft each and since the recent images already showed 720, I think it is safe to assume Batch 08 is either well in preparation.

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> What do you mean with 31st "halal dragon?
> 
> If you want to assume it is one for Pakistan, then you are wrong since it is a Batch 04 - indeed no. 31 within that batch - J-10C, but that batch was produced in late 2019 (between October and December most likely), so it is surely not one for Pakistan.



Even Deino has started using Halal Dragon. It is official.

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## Jinn Baba

Luosifen said:


> Has the PAF ever gone up against F-22s and F-35s in exercises? I have a feeling the next Shaheen exercises might pit PAF J-10CPs against PLAAF J-20s towards the end to give a feel for what going up against a stealth fighter is like in non-stealth if they haven't experienced it yet (as well as promote the need for PAF to acquire FC-31s).

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## The Eagle

Clutch said:


> He is someone promoting PAF and Pakistan. That should be enough. Let's not start the Pakistani Dalit habit of tearing our own down while worshiping whitie....



Instead of judging others, let's pay attention to the forum rules as well. We don't allow non credible click baiting sensational videos. Much if information is discussed already if the subject is being followed. This place shouldn't be used for promotion and shares.

Regards,



Deino said:


> What do you mean with 31st "halal dragon?
> 
> If you want to assume it is one for Pakistan, then you are wrong since it is a Batch 04 - indeed no. 31 within that batch - J-10C, but that batch was produced in late 2019 (between October and December most likely), so it is surely not one for Pakistan.



Result of copy paste without due process to cross check.

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## Bleek

How would you compare the J-10C's dogfighting capabilities with the F-16?


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## siegecrossbow

Bleek said:


> How would you compare the J-10C's dogfighting capabilities with the F-16?



F-16, especially A-variant, probably has superior thrust to weight, so in a sustained turning battle it probably holds an advantage. However, the J-10C, being a delta-canard, has superior instantaneous turn rate, and also has high off-bore IR missile like PL-10 which is better than the Sidewinder variant currently in service with the PAF. I think in a dog fight it really boils down to pilot skill and whether they can leverage the advantage of the respective platform.

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## Luosifen

siegecrossbow said:


> Even Deino has started using Halal Dragon. It is official.


Well, we still could use an insert of the term in a news article somewhere 



Jinn Baba said:


>


Looking forward to pictures of PAF flying together with PLAAF stealth jets in the future.

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## Dreamer.

siegecrossbow said:


> Even Deino has started using Halal Dragon. It is official.


A ridiculous term, it's not something to be eaten! 

Even the name "J-10CP" is only a fan made one so far. Nothing other than J-10C or CE exists officially on china side....and PAF obviously hasn't given anything official yet and won't until the day of the actual induction ceremony. Even then they may decide to simply call it J-10 without specifying anything.

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## IbnAbdullah

Salaam



Deino said:


> Another one ...
> 
> View attachment 817022



Why do airplanes dump fuel? (I'm assuming it's that since someone mentioned it in reference to the picture you posted). Thanks
Thanks



Dreamer. said:


> A ridiculous term, it's not something to be eaten!
> 
> Even the name "J-10CP" is only a fan made one so far. Nothing other than J-10C or CE exists officially on china side....and PAF obviously hasn't given anything official yet and won't until the day of the actual induction ceremony. Even then they may decide to simply call it J-10 without specifying anything.




I don't think anyone is claiming that J10 is a food item nor that the term halal dragon is an official term. It's just a term used as a fun nickname given by some. I don't see ehy it should be a problem.

Btw halal isn't restricted to food items. It encompasses all that is allowed including but not limited to food.


----------



## untitled

IbnAbdullah said:


> Why do airplanes dump fuel?


To make landings easier especially in case of emergencies (and if it is safe to do so)
In the picture I believe they are testing the fuel dumping system

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## Beast

Basel said:


> Some posters are indicating that a western Aircraft may be joining PAF and F-16 new or used is only logical option if things go good between US and Pakistan.


If I am PAF, I will not take that option. PAF are tired and wary of unreliable support. One day, they claim support you but next moment, they will turn another face. 

Constantly living in the fear of sanction and threat of ending spares to your squadron is not pleasant.

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## jaybird

IbnAbdullah said:


> Salaam
> 
> 
> 
> Why do airplanes dump fuel? (I'm assuming it's that since someone mentioned it in reference to the picture you posted). Thanks
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone is claiming that J10 is a food item nor that the term halal dragon is an official term. It's just a term used as a fun nickname given by some. I don't see ehy it should be a problem.
> 
> Btw halal isn't restricted to food items. It encompasses all that is allowed including but not limited to food.



Here is a google answer. 


_"Because it lowers the weight of the plane, causing it less stress as it lands. Landing a plane is more stressful on the airplane than taking off is. Heavy fuel adds even more stress, so when the pilot feels it is necessary to lower the weight of the airplane, he may decide to get rid of some of that fuel before landing. 

Getting rid of fuel immediately before landing is the fastest way to eliminate the fuel. When not enough fuel is consumed during a flight or there is an emergency situation, dumping the fuel makes for a lighter airplane and, therefore, less stress on the plane itself."_

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

siegecrossbow said:


> Even Deino has started using Halal Dragon. It is official.


It's a weird name. It implies we're going to eat dragons.

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## untitled

Dreamer. said:


> A ridiculous term, it's not something to be eaten!





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's a weird name. It implies we're going to eat dragons.





> Even Deino has started using Halal Dragon. It is official.


So far @The Eagle is OK with it

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## Khan vilatey

IbnAbdullah said:


> Salaam
> 
> 
> 
> Why do airplanes dump fuel? (I'm assuming it's that since someone mentioned it in reference to the picture you posted). Thanks
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone is claiming that J10 is a food item nor that the term halal dragon is an official term. It's just a term used as a fun nickname given by some. I don't see ehy it should be a problem.
> 
> Btw halal isn't restricted to food items. It encompasses all that is allowed including but not limited to food.



Maximum landing weight is set by aircraft as the strain on the landing gear due to impact of landing can break the gear.

Aircraft routinely carry more fuel on take off so they can fly further with the expectation that they would burn the fuel in flight reducing the weight on landing. If for one reason or another you need to land earlier than the landing weight has been met, you need to reduce the weight of the aircraft. It is generally frowned upon to throw passengers and their luggage out of a plane in flight so we usually dump fuel. When you qualify on an aircraft 20 hours of training you are thought the procedure to reduce landing weight.


I have the lowest level of a pilots License……


Second part about halal dragon 🐉, yes certainly j-10c is a halal as it can give sacrifice. But would it be halal for it to eat up a Rafael after killing it? Would it need to kill it in a Zabhia way ……..

We all know that dragons are fictional Charachters right….. so are unicorns …. Just wanted to get some things straightened out before going into law details

K






Maximum landing weight - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org

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## mingle

kursed said:


> Majority of J10CP pilots are F-16 pilots. Incl those who first evaluated the aircraft.


Any twin seat for OCUs??


----------



## siegecrossbow

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's a weird name. It implies we're going to eat dragons.



There is a kabob chain in New York called Halal Bros but I don’t think it implies they want to eat bros.

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## Luosifen

An enterprising Pakistani restaurant could open near the J-10 airbase and offer a 'Halal Dragon' dish for the pilots when they go off-duty 😋

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## HRK

OK my sources confirm induction ceremony for JF-10 in PAF will be held at 30 Feb, 2022

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## untitled

HRK said:


> JF-10 in PAF will be help at 30 Feb, 2022

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## Bleek

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's a weird name. It implies we're going to eat dragons.


Halal simply means permissible, I don't think it's restricted to food, but it is mainly used in that context.

Halal dragons guarding our strike package against Rafale:






Kashmiris cheering us on, on the sidelines

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## siegecrossbow

HRK said:


> OK my sources confirm induction ceremony for JF-10 in PAF will be held at 30 Feb, 2022



Should’ve been the 27th.

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## MastanKhan

MultaniGuy said:


> I do agree with you that the Saudis, and Emiratis call us "miskeen."
> That is why we need to improve the condition of our country so we are better respected.
> 
> We did the right thing by staying out of Yemen.
> 
> Why should we get killed in someone else's war?
> 
> Do you see Saudis and Emiratis declaring war on India over Kashmir.
> 
> Or does Saudis and Emiratis give us fuel and other supplies when we are at war with India?
> 
> Exactly, Pakistan First. I couldn't give a damn for anyone else's country.



Hi,

Son---history is fascinating---you only learn when you read it.

Our forefathers would call the europeans ugly, illiterate, dirty, filthy, untouchable, till they conquered our lands and made us their slaves world wide and now we are their whipping boys.

When posters like you and Bossman are so short-sighted---the average joe in pakistan is doomed.

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## MastanKhan

untitled said:


> Last time when we were inducting JF-17s in the late 2000s, we were all expecting to have J-10s by 2014. Now that we are finally in the process of inducting J-10s how long are we going to take to induct a new fighter?


Hi,

Expectations of the outsiders were 2014 or close by---but then certain technologies started to show their positive side---and it was decided to let them progress and mature so that both the Jf17 BLK3 and the J10 C's were equipped with them for operational use.

Induction of the JF17 BLK 3 would take awhile---.

For a pilot used to non aesa radar---when he is put on an aesa equipped aircraft---he has to learn to UN-LEARN the conventional radar usage and adjust to the aesa radar---which is a totally different ball game---.

The pilot has to UN-LEARN how he fought the enemy with a non aesa radar and learn to understand how aesa works and how the fighting field that he is in is a totally different playing field.

So this issue will be dealt with by experienced pilots till the time came that the fresh young pilots would be coming straight to be trained on aesa radar and they would not know any other radar per say.

Technically---the induction to BLK3 and J10C is not going to be a cakewalk---.

It will be hard---it will be intense---and it will take time---.

To UN-LEARN a machine---wipe your memory and reflexes clean and then start over again---not an easy task.

MOST OLDER PILOTS WILL FALTER.

I wrote something similar on this forum over a decade ago---about the F22 pilots traing and the pilots got switched from non aesa to aesa radar---the hardest part to train them was to forget WVR combat and learn to fight BVR---no merges and learn to escape to come back and fight.

I am not saying the merges will not happen---. They won't happen intentionally.

That is why F16 is still the KING---been service for the longest in Paf colors.

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## Khan vilatey

siegecrossbow said:


> There is a kabob chain in New York called Halal Bros but I don’t think it implies they want to eat bros.


They don’t eat bros…….damn I didn’t eat there because I always thought they served bros ….

Folks this is getting a bit retarded please please please stop this 

K

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## sneakerspark

siegecrossbow said:


> Should’ve been the 27th.


As i mentioned in my previous post, ferry flight might be conducted on 27th.


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## Ghessan

HRK said:


> OK my sources confirm induction ceremony for JF-10 in PAF will be held at 30 Feb, 2022



even 29 Feb was enough to make a statement

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## Princeps Senatus

siegecrossbow said:


> F-16, especially A-variant, probably has superior thrust to weight, so in a sustained turning battle it probably holds an advantage. However, the J-10C, being a delta-canard, has superior instantaneous turn rate, and also has high off-bore IR missile like PL-10 which is better than the Sidewinder variant currently in service with the PAF. I think in a dog fight it really boils down to pilot skill and whether they can leverage the advantage of the respective platform.


thank you for the objective unbiased analysis


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## HRK

Ghessan said:


> even 29 Feb was enough to make a statement


members who might not aware that 2022 is not a leap year would have thought it true IF I had used 29th Feb as date for this light hearted joke ....

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## Ghessan

HRK said:


> members who might not aware that 2022 is not a leap year would have thought it true IF I had used 29th Feb as date for this light hearted joke ....



that's clever!

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## Vapnope

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's a weird name. It implies we're going to eat dragons.


It also implies that there is some haram dragon out there


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## HRK

Vapnope said:


> haram dragon



or haram samosa ....

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## Pappa Alpha

I'm glad that PAF is getting J-10C around this time and not earlier like in ~ 2014. 
Do you guys think that JF-17 BLK III would have happened if PAF had got J10s earlier?

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## The Eagle

untitled said:


> So far @The Eagle is OK with it



Until people start to make it necessary and quote in serious discussion.


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## Corax

Apologies in advance for bringing the Lavi back into the discussion, but if anyone is interested in the design aspects of a close-coupled delta canard, and how the data from the Lavi influenced the design of the J-10C, this video is extremely informative about the design and engineering aspects. Please note, the J-10C *IS NOT* a copy of the Lavi, what I'm trying to do here is to demonstrate how a similar design and engineering philosophy was used in both aircraft to achieve similar performance characteristics. In summary, both the Lavi and J-10C adopt a close-coupled canard delta design for improved aerodynamic efficiency, along with a thick wing root chord for greater fuel and load capacity, primarily intended for the strike role, and secondarily for A2A.

Key points from the video:


The Lavi was designed primarily as a light/medium weight strike fighter, and secondary A2A fighter.
Over 50% of total fuel volume is located in the wings, as apposed to around 20% in the F-16, allowing for more internal fuselage volume to be used for avionics and weapons.
Thicker wing root section allows the Lavi to carry more with less weight - *13% higher MTOW than Block-30 F-16C with 10% lower empty weight, 50% greater combat radius than Block-40 F-16C with 20% lower empty weight.*
Close-coupled canard design improves aerodynamic efficiency and lift-to-drag ratio, for greater load carrying over longer ranges (similar to Gripen, Rafale, J-10C).

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## smart7788

Corax said:


> Apologies in advance for bringing the Lavi back into the discussion, but if anyone is interested in the design aspects of a close-coupled delta canard, and how the data from the Lavi influenced the design of the J-10C, this video is extremely informative about the design and engineering aspects. Please note, the J-10C *IS NOT* a copy of the Lavi, what I'm trying to do here is to demonstrate how a similar design and engineering philosophy was used in both aircraft to achieve similar performance characteristics. In summary, both the Lavi and J-10C adopt a close-coupled canard delta design for improved aerodynamic efficiency, along with a thick wing root chord for greater fuel and load capacity, primarily intended for the strike role, and secondarily for A2A.
> 
> Key points from the video:
> 
> 
> The Lavi was designed primarily as a light/medium weight strike fighter, and secondary A2A fighter.
> Over 50% of total fuel volume is located in the wings, as apposed to around 20% in the F-16, allowing for more internal fuselage volume to be used for avionics and weapons.
> Thicker wing root section allows the Lavi to carry more with less weight - *13% higher MTOW than Block-30 F-16C with 10% lower empty weight, 50% greater combat radius than Block-40 F-16C with 20% lower empty weight.*
> Close-coupled canard design improves aerodynamic efficiency and lift-to-drag ratio, for greater load carrying over longer ranges (similar to Gripen, Rafale, J-10C).


Lavi is not mass produced. It's a failed product. It is completely different from the J10.

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## Trailer23

This Topic seems to have lost its path as its become the new *New fighter for PAF Doctrine?* - while that Topic is officially dead.

Mods would have their work cut out if they were to move all the comments on their respective Topics.

So far the J-10 arrival/flypast has turned into F-16, EFT, Su-35, FC-31 etc. topic.
@The Eagle

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## Zarvan

Pappa Alpha said:


> I'm glad that PAF is getting J-10C around this time and not earlier like in ~ 2014.
> Do you guys think that JF-17 BLK III would have happened if PAF had got J10s earlier?


Yes it would have happened.

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## Salza

Trailer23 said:


> So far the J-10 arrival/flypast has turned into F-16, EFT, Su-35, FC-31 etc. topic.


because of ever impatient Zarvan

anyways coming back to the topic, when will official induction ceremony gonna take place ? any guesses. Apart from PM of Pakistan, I am expecting Chinese Airforce chief and senior ranking Chinese Govt official to attend the ceremony as well.

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## Readerdefence

HaMoTZeMaS said:


> Have you seen God Father.. Keep you friends close and your enemies ...........


Hi bro will this apply towards Pakistan in case of Israel 
specifically in the era of KSA early 70s and 80s
just a thought 
thaNK you


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## Windjammer



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## araz

Ghessan said:


> Let them taste the Indian flavor. If they are willing to be in the bed with them let them be.
> MBS is running to fast, not good for him. They were pissing last time when trump threaten to take back their security. He showed them their real worth.
> When it comes to face the front whole peninsula is on their knees then what are they good at.
> Politics is another field it keeps going whatever develops on other aspects, so let it be.


LEAVE THE SAUDIS TO THEIR OWN MECHINATIONS. What they do for their own country is their own business and they have not handed over their management to the Government of Pakistan and neither are we responsible for their foreign policy. Let us concentrate on the topic at hand

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## shi12jun



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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Corax said:


> Please note, *the J-10C IS NOT a copy of the Lavi, *what I'm trying to do here is to demonstrate how a similar design and engineering philosophy was used in both aircraft to achieve similar performance characteristics. In summary, both the Lavi and J-10C adopt a close-coupled canard delta design for improved aerodynamic efficiency, along with a thick wing root chord for greater fuel and load capacity, primarily intended for the strike role, and secondarily for A2A.
> 
> Key points from the video:
> 
> 
> The Lavi was designed primarily as a light/medium weight strike fighter, and secondary A2A fighter.
> Over 50% of total fuel volume is located in the wings, as apposed to around 20% in the F-16, allowing for more internal fuselage volume to be used for avionics and weapons.
> Thicker wing root section allows the Lavi to carry more with less weight - *13% higher MTOW than Block-30 F-16C with 10% lower empty weight, 50% greater combat radius than Block-40 F-16C with 20% lower empty weight.*
> Close-coupled canard design improves aerodynamic efficiency and lift-to-drag ratio, for greater load carrying over longer ranges (similar to Gripen, Rafale, J-10C).


If copying were that easy a way to pass would any student have failed???



Windjammer said:


> View attachment 817544


Feel sorry for the Indians though!!! When they were about to start bragging for the Rafaels PAF has again shot them down to the ground....

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## Windjammer

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Feel sorry for the Indians though!!! When they were about to start bragging for the Rafaels PAF has again shot them down to the ground....


My dear, this in essence is called the difference between Quality Vs Quantity.
After India acquired the Rafales, did you read any Pakistani poster or otherwise criticising the aircraft.....now even after some two dozen have been delivered to the IAF....the general talk was that we will counter anything that India fields....both with weapons and tactics.....still showing no disrespect to the French machine....on the contrary, since first images of a J-10 in PAF colours have emerged, the Indians on social media have gone into a melt down.....even if their Mother was getting abused....these Twitter Twats would be spending their time and efforts in demeaning Pakistan and PAF in general and this time the J-10 in particular.

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## raja786

It was great reading all the pages over 100 😀. I was off for a week with family and this happened missed all the fun. When I came back to thread where I left it and saw all these huge page numbers I was laughing without even going through gutt feeling was telling what had happened. 
I am not expert in aviation or consider myself a little bit knowledgeable in this field but know for sure it's a new weapon for my jawans to bring havoc to there enemies 😉. 
To all my country men and our well wishers congratulations 🎊. And big hug to Sheda talli.
And many thanks to Almighty and our brothers in China 🇨🇳.

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## The Eagle

Trailer23 said:


> This Topic seems to have lost its path as its become the new *New fighter for PAF Doctrine?* - while that Topic is officially dead.
> 
> Mods would have their work cut out if they were to move all the comments on their respective Topics.
> 
> So far the J-10 arrival/flypast has turned into F-16, EFT, Su-35, FC-31 etc. topic.
> @The Eagle



Everyone, please keep both topics separate from each other. Other options or possibilities or rumors be kindly be taken to New Fighter for PAF Doctrine thread.

Regards,


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## siegecrossbow

Trailer23 said:


> This Topic seems to have lost its path as its become the new *New fighter for PAF Doctrine?* - while that Topic is officially dead.
> 
> Mods would have their work cut out if they were to move all the comments on their respective Topics.
> 
> So far the J-10 arrival/flypast has turned into F-16, EFT, Su-35, FC-31 etc. topic.
> @The Eagle



Now that the J-10C purchase has been confirmed the New Fighter thread can be turned into a pure speculation thread where people can discuss induction of J-16, J-15, Su-35 with Chinese avionics, Big Foot, and the Loch Ness Monster into the PAF.

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## chinasun

Documentary on history of J-10 fighter jet. How was China first 3rd Generation fighter made, J-10C​

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## Khan vilatey

Just to spark an interesting conversation, do folks know that in the mid 90s PAF evaluated the Rafael and rejected it. I believe the French will sell us this aircraft, provided we pay with hard Chinese yaun sorry I mean American dollars. The French don’t care about either Pakistan or India they care about money and French jobs.

Remember they sold Pakistan the Augusta 90b and india the scorpion subs ….they recently sold Pakistan military transport helicopters which can be fitted with weapons. They support upgrades for mirages and help is source spares……..,

We all forget it we’re French systems in Pakistani blinder squadrons that blinded india on Feb 27

So 30 used and new Rafael’s with metior

I also disagree with folks who think that f-16s would stay in PAF inventory for long. Spare parts are hard to come by, moreover the Americans may disable our access to GPS systems rendering most of the aircraft and their ammunition useless

GPS for civilian use is different from GPS for military use

My view of the PAF by 2035 is as follows

30-45 project Azam with a lot of Turkish and Chinese support
150 j-10 rev 7-10 models (strike, nuclear strike, SEAD and air Superiority )
200-250 jf-17 block 3-4-5 ( GD multi role )
50 deep strike f-7pg drones
50deep strike mirage 5 drones
30 f-16 for point defense and defensive general duty

K

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## HaMoTZeMaS

Readerdefence said:


> Hi bro will this apply towards Pakistan in case of Israel
> specifically in the era of KSA early 70s and 80s
> just a thought
> thaNK you


Will this apply?

This is actually happening on grounds in ME
Enemies are coming more closer than Friends 

If we donot know Isreal How are we going to fight them, Thats why its critical to keep them in fore sight rather keeping them grow at large and being surprised at the end of the day


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## Dreamer.

deep_blue said:


> Project Azm & T-FX have Merged into a Joint Venture.
> 
> Is this the news of new fighter we have been waiting for???


I don't know if it is or not but it certainly isn't related to J-10. So better post this in below thread.









New fighter for PAF Doctrine?


News going around the PAF pages this is from Instagram paf_falcons @Knuckles @WebMaster @airomerix @Armchair @MastanKhan @Hodor @TheTallGuy @StormBreaker @Windjammer @mingle @Bilal Khan (Quwa)



defence.pk

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## Gripen9

GumNaam said:


> Agreed. seems like China's plan is to completely subdue india for multiple directions.



That is why Pakistan should have pitched 10B in "soft loans" to buy 100+ J-10s , even older JH-7 (gifted) that opens up Pakistan able to threaten South India that currently India spends very little to defend.
Similarly expand PN with 8-10 Type 54, 20 Submarines (with some having BM capability) stationed not only in Arabian sea but maybe in Bay of Bengal as well. So that 10B investment from China totally takes all wind out of Indian involvement in the Quad where they were boasting about shutting down Straits of Malacca for Chinese shipping.

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## siegecrossbow

Ghessan said:


> even 29 Feb was enough to make a statement



I think the original joke was that February 30th is a nonexistent date. He is making fun of the rumor mill.

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## applesauce

Gripen9 said:


> That is why Pakistan should have pitched 10B in "soft loans" to buy 100+ J-10s , even older JH-7 (gifted) that opens up Pakistan able to threaten South India that currently India spends very little to defend.
> Similarly expand PN with 8-10 Type 54, 20 Submarines (with some having BM capability) stationed not only in Arabian sea but maybe in Bay of Bengal as well. So that 10B investment from China totally takes all wind out of Indian involvement in the Quad where they were boasting about shutting down Straits of Malacca for Chinese shipping.



india has zero capability to close the straits of malacca. is a boast as realistic as winning a two front war against china and pakistan at the same time.

the strait is farther away from indian bases than chinese bases in the SCS never mind that PLAN could eat the IN for breakfast even without the range advantage.


----------



## Gripen9

Luosifen said:


> Has the PAF ever gone up against F-22s and F-35s in exercises? I have a feeling the next Shaheen exercises might pit PAF J-10CPs against PLAAF J-20s towards the end to give a feel for what going up against a stealth fighter is like in non-stealth if they haven't experienced it yet (as well as promote the need for PAF to acquire FC-31s).

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## Gripen9

applesauce said:


> india has zero capability to close the straits of malacca. is a boast as realistic as winning a two front war against china and pakistan at the same time.
> 
> the strait is farther away from indian bases than chinese bases in the SCS never mind that PLAN could eat the IN for breakfast even without the range advantage.



I know that. But that is their contribution to the Quad to "Contain" China. China returns the favor, arms Pak with long range heavy aircraft that opens up South India as well as put assets in Bay of Bengal -- Checkmate before you even have your turn.

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## Materialistic

Khan vilatey said:


> It is generally frowned upon to throw passengers and their luggage out of a plane in flight so we usually dump fuel.


Faith in humanity restored 😂

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## MIRauf

HRK said:


> OK my sources confirm induction ceremony for JF-10 in PAF will be held at 30 Feb, 2022


I was actually told that it will be on the second Tuesday of last week of Feb, 2022.

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## The SC



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## ahtan_china



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## raja786

HRK said:


> OK my sources confirm induction ceremony for JF-10 in PAF will be held at 30 Feb, 2022


Do you know the timings and who's cutting the ribbon 🎀.

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## MastanKhan

Khan vilatey said:


> Just to spark an interesting conversation, do folks know that in the mid 90s PAF evaluated the Rafael and rejected it. I believe the French will sell us this aircraft, provided we pay with hard Chinese yaun sorry I mean American dollars. The French don’t care about either Pakistan or India they care about money and French jobs.
> 
> Remember they sold Pakistan the Augusta 90b and india the scorpion subs ….they recently sold Pakistan military transport helicopters which can be fitted with weapons. They support upgrades for mirages and help is source spares……..,
> 
> We all forget it we’re French systems in Pakistani blinder squadrons that blinded india on Feb 27
> 
> So 30 used and new Rafael’s with metior
> 
> I also disagree with folks who think that f-16s would stay in PAF inventory for long. Spare parts are hard to come by, moreover the Americans may disable our access to GPS systems rendering most of the aircraft and their ammunition useless
> 
> GPS for civilian use is different from GPS for military use
> 
> My view of the PAF by 2035 is as follows
> 
> 30-45 project Azam with a lot of Turkish and Chinese support
> 150 j-10 rev 7-10 models (strike, nuclear strike, SEAD and air Superiority )
> 200-250 jf-17 block 3-4-5 ( GD multi role )
> 50 deep strike f-7pg drones
> 50deep strike mirage 5 drones
> 30 f-16 for point defense and defensive general duty
> 
> K



Hi,

Rafale around early part of 2000 decade.


----------



## Khan vilatey

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Rafale around early part of 2000 decade.


The folks I know were involved in this in 1998-1999 . Some other folks I know were involved with the super 7 program. I know a bit about karma when there was the muni see AMF for mushak, there was the f-6 rebuild factory and the mirage rebuild factory and cha cha America use to provide all the spares……

good old general Zia …. The liberator of Jordan 🇯🇴 

K

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## HRK

raja786 said:


> Do you know the timings and who's cutting the ribbon 🎀.


I am the chief guest ....

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## Vapnope

HRK said:


> I am the chief guest ....


You should do a wheelie in a J10 on PDF behalf P

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## MastanKhan

Khan vilatey said:


> The folks I know were involved in this in 1998-1999 . Some other folks I know were involved with the super 7 program. I know a bit about karma when there was the muni see AMF for mushak, there was the f-6 rebuild factory and the mirage rebuild factory and cha cha America use to provide all the spares……
> 
> good old general Zia …. The liberator of Jordan 🇯🇴
> 
> K



Hi,

Very interesting


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## andan




----------



## Deino

andan said:


>




Oh come on! There si NO need to post any random fancy J-10 video that even more is irrelevant to the Pakistani variant since you don't get this TVC-variant!

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## NA71

Now this is something adorable :

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## Blueskiez 2001

NA71 said:


> Now this is something adorable :
> View attachment 817838



It´s a beauty. - the only thing I feel looks awkward is the air inlet. 

"If structure does not tell us anything about function, it means that we have not looked at it correctly" - hence I can´t understand people comparing this plane with JF17.... (ie. it does not bring anything new to the table....)

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## Deino

NA71 said:


> Now this is something adorable :
> View attachment 817838




And why again posting a random PLAAF J-10C image?

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## Blueskiez 2001

Deino said:


> And why again posting a random PLAAF J-10C image?



And I thought in my naive state of mind that it was on of the jets for PAF....


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## Shotgunner51

applesauce said:


> two front war against china and pakistan at the same time


2.5 front

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## Dalit

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 817544



Wow. That is a beauty.


----------



## Deino

Blueskiez 2001 said:


> And I thought in my naive state of mind that it was on of the jets for PAF....



Really? Then please check the camouflage, antenna configuration and even more the source where this image is from!

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## Blueskiez 2001

Deino said:


> Really? Then please check the camouflage, antenna configuration and even more the source where this image is from!



Please educate me. The nose of the front plane is a bit blurred because the fighter in the background is the main focus of the picture with a front view.
1) how can you se the camouflage from this angle
2) the same goes for the antenna configuration
3) I se the source of the image on top right you pointed out.

I se the MAWS on top of the tail fin, the big HUD and the IRST (if I´m not mistaken the MAWS on tail fin and the big HUD is J-10C)

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## Deino

Blueskiez 2001 said:


> Please educate me. The nose of the front plane is a bit blurred because the fighter in the background is the main focus of the picture with a front view.
> 1) how can you se the camouflage from this angle
> 2) the same goes for the antenna configuration
> 3) I se the source of the image on top right you pointed out.
> 
> I se the MAWS on top of the tail fin, the big HUD and the IRST (if I´m not mistaken the MAWS on tail fin and the big HUD is J-10C)




1. Agreed, camouflage is a bit difficult, but those for Pakistan have a darker grey band in the center.






2. here I need to apologise, since it is indeed not visible

3. Indeed ... sourced by ChinaMil.com, and it was posted in April 2021:

*"Fighter jets attached to an aviation brigade of the air force under the PLA Southern Theater Command get ready to take off from the runway for a flight training exercise in late April, 2021. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Wang Guoyun)"*

english.chinamil.com.cn/view/2021-04/29/content_10030424_3.htm









As such, it cannot be a PAF bird since in early 2021 no Batch 07 J-10C was built or unless once again some overenthusiastic fan boy again thinks it MUST be one since the PLAAF emblem and serial is not visible.

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## Blueskiez 2001

Deino said:


> 1. Agreed, camouflage is a bit difficult, but those for Pakistan have a darker grey band in the center.
> 
> View attachment 817914
> 
> 
> 2. here I need to apologise, since it is indeed not visible
> 
> 3. Indeed ... sourced by ChinaMil.com, and it was posted in April 2021:
> 
> *"Fighter jets attached to an aviation brigade of the air force under the PLA Southern Theater Command get ready to take off from the runway for a flight training exercise in late April, 2021. (eng.chinamil.com.cn/Photo by Wang Guoyun)"*
> 
> english.chinamil.com.cn/view/2021-04/29/content_10030424_3.htm
> 
> 
> View attachment 817916
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As such, it cannot be a PAF bird since in early 2021 no Batch 07 J-10C was built or unless once again some overenthusiastic fan boy again thinks it MUST be one since the PLAAF emblem and serial is not visible.


thx bro

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## Khan vilatey

I would like to bring up something @The Eagle said, about pilot and equipment training 

When we received the f-16s contract was signed in 1981 

First f-16 landed in 1983 January 









History of the Pakistan Air Force


The history of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) began when it was established in 1947 following the independence of Pakistan. In 1933, the British colonial government established the first Air Force station in the Indian subcontinent near Drigh Road, now called PAF Base Faisal in Karachi. In 1934...




military-history.fandom.com





So by that logic the j-10cp agreement must have been signed in 2018-19 and pilots and maintenance crews must have been training in china for the last 1-2 years. 

The question I have for my friends with way more knowledge than I, were PAF pilots flying and training on j-10cps in Shaheen 2020 and 2021. 60 aircraft were sent to China for training which is about 15-18% of the PAF. And the birds that came to Pakistan were they maintained and flown by PAF , were there one or two of Pakistani j-10cp in the training for the last few years 


K

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## Blueskiez 2001

Many people often not understand what it takes to buy and induct a new weapon system or equipment. 

One can in no way compare it to buying like a car. The reason I give this example is that when reading post, I get that impression that people think that buying a fighter (or a new fighter system) is like buying a car. They forget that you cannot send the equipment to the garage if it breaks down or need service. It is more like buying both the car AND the garage for service (with the tools, manpower and so on). And on top of that you also need to make sure that you buy everything that is needed for the car to keep it functional. And on top of that you need to make sure that your driver is able not only driving the car, but also be able to handle if anything goes wrong. 

So when J-10C lands in Pakistan this month / early March then there has been a training of staff from the fighter pilot to the technician and probably also the logistic guy.... So yes PAF has been cooking this dish for many years and was able to keep it relatively secret...

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## tphuang

btw, for those who might be concerned that J-10C's electronics isn't good enough, you might want to read this comment from USAF about China's current radar and EW technology
 Dominating the Spectrum - Air Force Magazine 


> “That was a time of de-emphasis of electronic warfare, electronic attack, electronic defense, maneuvering in the electromagnetic spectrum,” Hinote said. “They studied us. … They studied many of you and your work, and they did their best to come up with ways of countering what you were doing in the electromagnetic spectrum.”
> Today, as a result, China can send pulses from their radars “that are different every time,” Hinote said. “Yes—that’s happening right now.”
> The Chinese became so good at electromagnetic spectrum warfare in the interim that today “they absolutely believe that [EMS] superiority is a prerequisite for victory,” Hinote said, suggesting that denying China use of the spectrum could be enough to deter it from fighting. “Maybe it’s enough that we deny the use of the electromagnetic spectrum to China,” he said, by filling “the airwaves with electromagnetic energy to the point where you could walk on it. … To make it so difficult to operate in the electromagnetic spectrum that it’s mutually denied space.”


I'd assume most of this is from Japan/Taiwan's experience against J-16s, but J-10C would have a similar generation of avionics.
I don't think J-10C will be at a disadvantage in its radar/EW suite against Rafale.

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## siegecrossbow

tphuang said:


> btw, for those who might be concerned that J-10C's electronics isn't good enough, you might want to read this comment from USAF about China's current radar and EW technology
> Dominating the Spectrum - Air Force Magazine
> 
> I'd assume most of this is from Japan/Taiwan's experience against J-16s, but J-10C would have a similar generation of avionics.
> I don't think J-10C will be at a disadvantage in its radar/EW suite against Rafale.



Not necessarily J-16D, which only started operating in the Taiwan Straits early this year. It could be talking about Y-8 EW too. The latter was responsible for the mass F-15 scramble of 2016.

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## tphuang

siegecrossbow said:


> Not necessarily J-16D, which only started operating in the Taiwan Straits early this year. It could be talking about Y-8 EW too. The latter was responsible for the mass F-15 scramble of 2016.


I was mostly referring to regular J-16s. Since the article highlighted F-15/F-35 EW suites, I'm thinking they are mostly referring to fighter jet radar technology that PLAAF currently employs. I'm sure Y-8 special missions aircraft would have radar technology at similar levels too.

What they described in there sounds like what you would expect in a radar with really low probability of intercept. I'm assuming Japan/Taiwan in these cases are just not able to consistently pick up J-16 radar emissions.

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## MastanKhan

Khan vilatey said:


> I would like to bring up something @The Eagle said, about pilot and equipment training
> 
> When we received the f-16s contract was signed in 1981
> 
> First f-16 landed in 1983 January
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> History of the Pakistan Air Force
> 
> 
> The history of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) began when it was established in 1947 following the independence of Pakistan. In 1933, the British colonial government established the first Air Force station in the Indian subcontinent near Drigh Road, now called PAF Base Faisal in Karachi. In 1934...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> military-history.fandom.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So by that logic the j-10cp agreement must have been signed in 2018-19 and pilots and maintenance crews must have been training in china for the last 1-2 years.
> 
> The question I have for my friends with way more knowledge than I, were PAF pilots flying and training on j-10cps in Shaheen 2020 and 2021. 60 aircraft were sent to China for training which is about 15-18% of the PAF. And the birds that came to Pakistan were they maintained and flown by PAF , were there one or two of Pakistani j-10cp in the training for the last few years
> 
> 
> K


Hi,

No---the deal would have been done some 8 years ago.

Picked the aircraft---the engine---the ew package---finalized the ew package and the engine---went into production---flight traing---integration of weapons system etc etc etc---then pilot training.

So---when I stated the deal was done somewhere around 2014---that is the time period that it falls under.

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## Khan vilatey

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> No---the deal would have been done some 8 years ago.
> 
> Picked the aircraft---the engine---the ew package---finalized the ew package and the engine---went into production---flight traing---integration of weapons system etc etc etc---then pilot training.
> 
> So---when I stated the deal was done somewhere around 2014---that is the time period that it falls under.


so you are saying we penned something in 2014 awesome news. Did it it take us 8 years to induct j-10c and only 1-2 years to induct the f-16 in the 1980s?

Why such a discrepancy? Please share some more details.

K

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## Gripen9

Khan vilatey said:


> so you are saying we penned something in 2014 awesome news. Did it it take us 8 years to induct j-10c and only 1-2 years to induct the f-16 in the 1980s?
> 
> Why such a discrepancy? Please share some more details.
> 
> K


We had no say in what weapon system or customization to be done to the F-16.

Only say we had was to reject lower power F-16/J-79.

We got vanilla blk 15 F-16 armed with AIm-9L, AGM-65 and Iron Bombs. So our initial batch of engineers & pilots were fully trained and operational in 8 months I believe. 
PAF afterwards paid Thomson-CSF to integrate ATLIS Laser Designation pod to our F-16 s which US allowed. This made them deliver Paveway LGBs.

In J-10s case, we had a lot of say in EW and weapons integration. Majority of the requirements were still in development when PAF most probably agreed in principle. PAF also did not want to pull the trigger until India had finalized its MRCA selection. They waited until Rafales were ordered and their final config was known.

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## Beast

tphuang said:


> btw, for those who might be concerned that J-10C's electronics isn't good enough, you might want to read this comment from USAF about China's current radar and EW technology
> Dominating the Spectrum - Air Force Magazine
> 
> I'd assume most of this is from Japan/Taiwan's experience against J-16s, but J-10C would have a similar generation of avionics.
> I don't think J-10C will be at a disadvantage in its radar/EW suite against Rafale.


@UKBengali 

You need this kind of info to update you. Stop living in old Europe times.

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## siegecrossbow

Gripen9 said:


> We had no say in what weapon system or customization to be done to the F-16.
> 
> Only say we had was to reject lower power F-16/J-79.
> 
> We got vanilla blk 15 F-16 armed with AIm-9L, AGM-65 and Iron Bombs. So our initial batch of engineers & pilots were fully trained and operational in 8 months I believe.
> PAF afterwards paid Thomson-CSF to integrate ATLIS Laser Designation pod to our F-16 s which US allowed. This made them deliver Paveway LGBs.
> 
> In J-10s case, we had a lot of say in EW and weapons integration. Majority of the requirements were still in development when PAF most probably agreed in principle. PAF also did not want to pull the trigger until India had finalized its MRCA selection. They waited until Rafales were ordered and their final config was known.



I think MastanKhan covered it in a previous post — learning to fight with AESA radar is a difficult process. A lot of tactics used in the slotted array era are harmful and must be unlearned.

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496651050257993732

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## Gripen9

siegecrossbow said:


> I think MastanKhan covered it in a previous post — learning to fight with AESA radar is a difficult process. A lot of tactics used in the slotted array era are harmful and must be unlearned.


That too...
But usually you gain that knowledge in service. We will develop AESA based tactics as we use it. However in this case it took a while for the platform to mature and be at a level that PAF is more than confident we can take on the Indian Rafales. 1000+ t/r AESA / PL15, 145KN of thrust.... lets go!



Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496651050257993732


Why?

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## Deino

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496651050257993732




Not sure how reliable this site is ... seems he still rates those J-10CP images as faked and otherwise this account looks more than "fishy"!

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## serenity

On AESA... read and learn. This is old PLAAF and Chinese technology capability from mid 2010 era.

https://www.airforcemag.com/article/dominating-the-spectrum/

Above shows the level of Chinese electromagnetic capabilities. US considering EM neutrality just because China is so far ahead. This is why PLA trains and place high emphasis on triple redundancy down to unguided rockets practice.

https://www.airforcemag.com/article/usaf-three-priorities-china-china-china/

To compare Chinese AESA with French ones is doing Chinese ones such a disservice. We are not talking about a $100 Chinese module vs $10000 French one. In this field, China >>> France. India's Uttam? Aliexpress module level. The lowest priced one too not even something decent. Still these guys haven't worked Uttam out and struggling to manufacture them in numbers that can service Tejas.

There is a huge difference between Chinese levels. We have the lowest and the mid and the highest. When it comes to military, and government products, it is all highest only. India does not know how to land a 10kg piece of lander on the moon, China landed much more advanced lander half a decade before India. India still at zero because it has no ability to. It's no 99% success it is an example of being really at 0 not at >0.

Just one example of "quality" and technological capability.

Again China's own PLAAF use AESAs may not be what is sold for fear of revealing information and leaking secrets which could help others counter them slightly more. Even that edge is a risk. So what Pakistan receives is unknown but unlikely to be worse than what Pakistan can buy from Europe since orders are open. Pakistan also tests them extensively and has traditionally picked the best available one or slightly inferior but with other aspects that put it ahead overall.

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## UKBengali

Beast said:


> @UKBengali
> 
> You need this kind of info to update you. Stop living in old Europe times.





Electronics does not just include the AESA radar.

It is the full EW suite and there is no way that China has matched the French yet in this respect - they are probably close but not yet up there.

Also remember that the French have tested their systems in conflicts around the world and so have that extra vital real-world experience that China lacks.

As a real example of how capable the French fighter electronics are, the Rafale went into Libya without any growler escorts as it could "blind' the Libyan air-defence systems. I know they are not the most advanced in the world but neither the UK or the USA dared send in their fighters without dedicated EW escort aircraft as well.

Think there is just a bit too much nationalism and not enough realism here.



serenity said:


> Again China's own PLAAF use AESAs may not be what is sold for fear of revealing information and leaking secrets which could help others counter them slightly more. Even that edge is a risk. So what Pakistan receives is unknown but unlikely to be worse than what Pakistan can buy from Europe since orders are open. Pakistan also tests them extensively and has traditionally picked the best available one or slightly inferior but with other aspects that put it ahead overall.






This is simply not true.

Pakistan is probably getting the J-10CE for 40 million US dollar and on easy repayment options from China.

A single Rafale F4 would cost around 100 million US dollars and France may not even give out a loan to the heavily indebted Pakistanis for fear of default on the repayments.

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## Salza

UKBengali said:


> Also remember that the French have tested their systems in conflicts around the world and so have that extra vital real-world experience that China lacks.


LMAO, tested where ? against nations like Mali, Libya etc where as Pakistanis have been using Chinese tech against some one like India for a long time. Yes Rafales are good but J10C are almost upto the mark as well.

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## KampfAlwin

UKBengali said:


> Electronics does not just include the AESA radar.
> 
> It is the full EW suite and there is no way that China has matched the French yet in this respect - they are probably close but not yet up there.
> 
> Also remember that the French have tested their systems in conflicts around the world and so have that extra vital real-world experience that China lacks.
> 
> As a real example of how capable the French fighter electronics are, the Rafale went into Libya without any growler escorts as it could "blind' the Libyan air-defence systems. I know they are not the most advanced in the world but neither the UK or the USA dared send in their fighters without dedicated EW escort aircraft as well.
> 
> Think there is just a bit too much nationalism and not enough realism here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is simply not true.
> 
> Pakistan is probably getting the J-10CE for 40 million US dollar and on easy repayment options from China.
> 
> A single Rafale F4 would cost around 100 million US dollars and France may not even give out a loan to the heavily indebted Pakistanis for fear of default on the repayments.


China fielded a domestic 5th gen fighter before France could. So therefore according to your logic, in terms of technological superiority, China is indeed ahead of France.

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## UKBengali

KampfAlwin said:


> China fielded a domestic 5th gen fighter before France could. So therefore according to your logic, in terms of technological superiority, China is indeed ahead of France.





Nope it is not as simple as that.

1. France brought out a look-down shoot-down radar in the 1980s.
It took China till the 2000s to do the same.

2. Rafale came out with a PESA in 1999 and the Chinese had to wait around 10 years later to do the same.


All those Chinese nationalists and some Pakistani fanboys forget that France does not have to make the T/R modules for the AESA as they have access to them off the shelf. France just does the integration of both the hardware and the software.



Salza said:


> LMAO, tested where ? against nations like Mali, Libya etc where as Pakistanis have been using Chinese tech against some one like India. Yes Rafales are good but J10C are almost upto the mark as well.





So you agree with me then dude?

My original post said that the J-10C was roughly comparable to the Rafale. 

While the J-10C may be slightly behind in electronics and missiles, it definitely would be better than Rafale in high-altitude aerodynamic performance. It is quite likely that the J-10C would have the edge in BVR duels with the Rafale.

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## Beast

UKBengali said:


> Electronics does not just include the AESA radar.
> 
> It is the full EW suite and there is no way that China has matched the French yet in this respect - they are probably close but not yet up there.
> 
> Also remember that the French have tested their systems in conflicts around the world and so have that extra vital real-world experience that China lacks.
> 
> As a real example of how capable the French fighter electronics are, the Rafale went into Libya without any growler escorts as it could "blind' the Libyan air-defence systems. I know they are not the most advanced in the world but neither the UK or the USA dared send in their fighters without dedicated EW escort aircraft as well.
> 
> Think there is just a bit too much nationalism and not enough realism here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is simply not true.
> 
> Pakistan is probably getting the J-10CE for 40 million US dollar and on easy repayment options from China.
> 
> A single Rafale F4 would cost around 100 million US dollars and France may not even give out a loan to the heavily indebted Pakistanis for fear of default on the repayments.


Sending Rafale against Mali or Libya without any growler is a piece of cake. And it can be carry out by any major military countries. Nothing extraordinary.

Just like using machine gun to gun down some Zulu fighter. And u can think that as feat? Lol..

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## KampfAlwin

UKBengali said:


> Nope it is not as simple as that.
> 
> 1. France brought out a look-down shoot-down radar in the 1980s.
> It took China till the 2000s to do the same.
> 
> 2. Rafale came out with a PESA in 1999 and the Chinese had to wait around 10 years later to do the same.
> 
> 
> All those Chinese nationalists and some Pakistani fanboys forget that France does not have to make the T/R modules for the AESA as they have access to them off the shelf. France just does the integration of both the hardware and the software.


So you’re basically saying since they fielded the tech earlier, they’re ahead? That’s literally what I posted on my previous comment. I’m using your logic bro = China fielded 5th gen ahead of France, therefore, China ahead of France.

You’re also saying China makes T/R modules and France doesn’t? Doesn’t that mean China is more technologically advanced than France since they can make it?

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## Salza

UKBengali said:


> While the J-10C may be slightly behind in electronics and missiles, it definitely would be better than Rafale in high-altitude aerodynamic performance. It is quite likely that the J-10C would have the edge in BVR duels with the Rafale.


This has always been the point by nearly everyone here. But you sounded like Rafale is in some another league. The progress China is making in the last 10-15 years is uncomparable. This is what, triggering the west. Ban on Huwawei and Chinese tech companies etc. 

After China, its Pakistani forces which are true testimonials to Chinese militarily tech and our trust is getting more and more on Chinese systems from land forces, to air and so as the Navy.

P.S. J10Cs won't end here. There will future upgrades/blocks as well just like with Rafales so who knows China tech may surpass Europe in the next 8-10 years in some domains.

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## UKBengali

KampfAlwin said:


> So you’re basically saying since they fielded the tech earlier, they’re ahead? That’s literally what I posted on my previous comment. I’m using your logic bro = China fielded 5th gen ahead of France, therefore, China ahead of France.
> 
> You’re also saying China makes T/R modules and France doesn’t? Doesn’t that mean China is more technologically advanced than France since they can make it?





Not the same analogy dude.

There is no compelling evidence that the J-20 is better in any way than 4+ fighters apart from in the area of stealth. In fact China is yet to field 5th gen engines in J-20 and the engines in Western 4+ gen fighters are of a higher technological level.

China is getting there but it will take probably 1/2 more decades before it can become a world leader in military technology.


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## KampfAlwin

UKBengali said:


> Not the same analogy dude.
> 
> There is no compelling evidence that the J-20 is better in any way than 4+ fighters apart from in the area of stealth. In fact China is yet to field 5th gen engines in J-20 and the engines in Western 4+ gen fighters are of a higher technological level.
> 
> China is getting there but it will take probably 1/2 more decades before it can become a world leader in military technology.


It is literally the same analogy, stop avoiding the argument.

Now you’re going off a tangent by saying “It doesn’t count because J-20 isn’t really a 5th gen” How would you even know the specs of the aircraft that you can confidently declare this and that? Did you get your information from National Interest?

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## UKBengali

Salza said:


> This has always been the point by nearly everyone here. But you sounded like Rafale is in some another league. The progress China is making in the last 10-15 years is uncomparable. This is what, triggering the west. Ban on Huwawei and Chinese tech companies etc.
> 
> After China, its Pakistani forces which are true testimonials to Chinese militarily tech and our trust is getting more and more on Chinese systems from land forces, to air and so as the Navy.
> 
> P.S. J10Cs won't end here. There will future upgrades/blocks as well just like with Rafales so who knows China tech may surpass Europe in the next 8-10 years in some domains.





Nope, I made this point in my initial post but it triggered some Chinese as they were convinced that since China makes the T/R modules then the J-10C must be ahead of Rafale in the electronics area.

8-10 years for China to catch the French and the UK in military aviation electronics is pretty realistic.

Anyway the IAF will be very worried as they stupidly chose the wrong fighter and they probably should have gone for EFT which would have had an advantage over J-10C in high-altitude aerodynamic performance. 

Indians buying Rafale is the good fortune that will allow PAF to stay comparable to IAF for the next 1-2 decades at least.



KampfAlwin said:


> It is literally the same analogy, stop avoiding the argument.
> 
> Now you’re going off a tangent by saying “It doesn’t count because J-20 isn’t really a 5th gen” How would you even know the specs of the aircraft that you can confidently declare this and that? Did you get your information from National Interest?





Dude, improve the quality of your conversation if you want me to keep engaging with you.


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## SD 10

UKBengali said:


> Nope, I made this point in my initial post but it triggered some Chinese as they were convinced that since China makes the T/R modules then the J-10C must be ahead of Rafale in the electronics area.
> 
> 8-10 years for China to catch the French and the UK in military aviation electronics is pretty realistic.
> 
> Anyway the IAF will be very worried as they stupidly chose the wrong fighter and they probably should have gone for EFT which would have had an advantage over J-10C in high-altitude aerodynamic performance.
> 
> Indians buying Rafale is the good fortune that will allow PAF to stay comparable to IAF for the next 1-2 decades at least.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, improve the quality of your conversation if you want me to keep engaging with you.


another EFT fan boy

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## UKBengali

SD 10 said:


> another EFT fan boy




14 Meteors and 2 IRIS-Ts in "Beast Mode" - 180kN of thrust from the 2 EJ-2000 engines. J-10C would not want to fight something like this. Kid, think it is time for you not to get involved in adult conversation here.

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## KampfAlwin

UKBengali said:


> Dude, improve the quality of your conversation if you want me to keep engaging with you.



I’m saying using declaratives that France/ UK is ahead of China or any country in X thing because they did said X thing first, and without any substantial proof of how other than that, is just bias - especially since anyone can use simplistic counter arguments against it.

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## UKBengali

KampfAlwin said:


> I’m saying using declaratives that France/ UK is ahead of China or any country in X thing because they did said X thing first, and without any substantial proof of how other than that, is just bias - especially since anyone can use simplistic counter arguments against it.





Do you seriously think that Rafale is not a good aircraft?

Both India and Indonesia have brough it and nearly 300 have been sold abroad. It is not just Arabs that have brought the plane.

With Western nations you forget that they share technology and so a lot of US technology does make it's way into the hands of other Western nations. 

With China they pretty much are on their own and so harder for them.


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## Bleek

UKBengali said:


> Indians buying Rafale is the good fortune that will allow PAF to stay comparable to IAF for the next 1-2 decades at least.


Perfect time for Chinese tech to mature, it'll match western levels at the very least, likely be ahead in some aspects.

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## serenity

UKBengali said:


> Nope it is not as simple as that.
> 
> 1. France brought out a look-down shoot-down radar in the 1980s.
> It took China till the 2000s to do the same.
> 
> 2. Rafale came out with a PESA in 1999 and the Chinese had to wait around 10 years later to do the same.
> 
> 
> All those Chinese nationalists and some Pakistani fanboys forget that France does not have to make the T/R modules for the AESA as they have access to them off the shelf. France just does the integration of both the hardware and the software.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you agree with me then dude?
> 
> My original post said that the J-10C was roughly comparable to the Rafale.
> 
> While the J-10C may be slightly behind in electronics and missiles, it definitely would be better than Rafale in high-altitude aerodynamic performance. It is quite likely that the J-10C would have the edge in BVR duels with the Rafale.



I think J-10's electronics are not China's best. We don't put that much good stuff into the J-10. It is meant as inexpensive fighter. Pakistan's purchased J-10CE version as J-10CP as we call it is reported to be around $50M per unit *without *support packages price accounted.

Rafale should be better than J-10 in both aerodynamic performance and BVR.

However China has better equipment available not just for J-16 and J-20 and other future Flanker types but also Dark Sword UCAV. These are all more high tier and expensive aircraft.

China's electronic industry is far superior to Frances.

We brought out AESA before France. We have more than 20 types of AESA in service platforms.

France's first look down shoot down radar from 1980s may be before China's while China was much lesser in development but that's like saying Japan was first to bring out fighter AESA with J/APG-1 but that doesn't mean Japan now has the best.

China was the first to bring out a cannon gun but that doesn't mean 100 years later it was the best. Same for rocket.

Anyway on J-10 vs Rafale. You have it backwards. Rafale is probably slightly better. It is high tier fighter and gets the best of France and USA can give it. J-10 is China's budget fighter. However you also got the technology backwards. China's technology level truly is far higher than France's. It is simply not that apparent yet. In military aviation we're talking about of course. France's civilian aviation with Airbus is ahead of China with C919 program for example. Far ahead.

France's experience in Libya is not war and not relevant. It doesn't prove anything. No going in combat without EW aircraft doesn't mean much when it is going in against the lowest grades of Soviet era air defence and short range too. I can tell you JF-17 block 2 with some pods could achieve the same against the same.

JF-17 went into range of Indian air defences and early warning radars where IAF scrambled many types of fighters but none pulled a single shot on a JF-17 or JF-17 escorted Mirage performing air to ground.

J-10C makes JF-17 block 2 look primitive. And J-10C is China's budget and lowest tier fighter being made now.

Chinese AESA technology has taken leap after leap without anyone speaking English (outside US intelligence) really noticing. We are beyond third generations of fighter AESA now. France has yet to develop something that can match Type 346A even which is now second tier for China and has been for over 7 years.

Anyway already with China it is beyond AESA again and now the high secrecy level of active sensor field is photonic radar which while Russia talks about a lot, China developed before Russia, before USA, before France. Most of hints given in Chinese literature and even some publicly shown does indicate that not only this stuff is ready, been ready for a while for at least ground, sea and space based. Only matter of time to get it into fighters. There is some reason the statements saying J-20S is the most incredible piece of electronic machinery assembled. It makes J-20's computing and electronics look dated.

Let's remember that China pioneered photon based communications, first to develop quantum teleportation and breaking distance record after distance record until silence as projects became black. Same with quantum computing and satellite based quantum comms. For years even PLAN officer and General recounts of new technology involving lasers (photon based) for not only communication but detecting submarines and part of hypersonic weapon guidance.

Some distills into english written media but most doesn't.

I notice the in english the program is called guanlan which is light wave.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=guanlan+satellite

This stuff was first leaked by PLA General about 5 years ago.

https://www.shine.cn/news/metro/2106281220/

https://insidegnss.com/beidou-condu...s-ahead-of-u-s-could-improve-satnav-accuracy/

https://www.9news.com.au/technology...in-world/a3cf1e8a-40d0-4934-b146-e83b87a591dd

That is more a weapon rather than sensor technology or communications technology but let's just say AESA is dated already but of course modern ones are better and photonics based active sensors for fighters may not be ready just yet.

Here's what the US would admit about China's electromagnetic (radar and EW ECM ECCM etc) levels. Still think France is up there with these two?

https://www.airforcemag.com/article/dominating-the-spectrum/

France's AESA uses American modules and only the ones USA is willing to sell to France and they are not the latest or even GaN. At least two generations behind BUT of course still extremely capable being AESA in nature alone.

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## TopGun786

UKBengali said:


> 14 Meteors and 2 IRIS-Ts in "Beast Mode" - 180kN of thrust from the 2 EJ-2000 engines. J-10C would not want to fight something like this. Kid, think it is time for you not to get involved in adult conversation here.
> 
> View attachment 818127


Why post computer graphics to explain your point?

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## UKBengali

TopGun786 said:


> Why post computer graphics to explain your point?




Dude, it is a low quality photo and illustrates how J-10C is no match for the EFT.


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## TopGun786

UKBengali said:


> Dude, it is a low quality photo and illustrates how J-10C is no match for the EFT.


I have read your comments above can simply say that you have gone too far (almost in the realm of fantasy) due to your biased behavior. Keep it cool man and try to accept other people's points of view also. I will not say you are totally wrong (or even mostly wrong) but I can see some of the guys have more realistic and convincing statements.

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## tphuang

On the topic of learning AESA and unlearning mechanically scanned radar, one also has to remember there is an EW suite version of this. Remember when Pakistan bought F-16 and how DFRM talked about glowingly here?









Russian EW Weaknesses Endure While Other Nations Innovate


Russia’s EW system development has failed to change direction to account for inherent weaknesses.




www.ainonline.com




This article about how Russia is backward now because it still uses DFRM against modern radar. You know when the Russians use it, it can't be that advanced. Other thing to think about is that with Rafale using AESA radar with LPI behavior, F-16 and probably block 1/2 JF-17 would have hard time confusing its radar with older EW suite technology. It's probably why J-10s and block 3 JF-17s are needed. You need modern EW suite to combat a modern radar. Similarly, Rafale's EW suite would have a hard time jamming the latest Chinese radar given what USAF has described about Chinese radar's ability to change pulse shaping and presumably frequency hop. Having more T/R modules do help here, since you can operate on more different frequencies.



serenity said:


> On AESA... read and learn. This is old PLAAF and Chinese technology capability from mid 2010 era.
> 
> https://www.airforcemag.com/article/dominating-the-spectrum/
> 
> Above shows the level of Chinese electromagnetic capabilities. US considering EM neutrality just because China is so far ahead. This is why PLA trains and place high emphasis on triple redundancy down to unguided rockets practice.


I would be cautious in thinking that US is behind China here. I've listened to them talk about this and the USAF is being extremely humble and cautious when talking about the ability of USAF conducting EW vs China so that everyone will take China's modern techs seriously.

I think USAF statement shows that China is very advanced in EW and it's raising alarm bells within USAF. Against older American fighter jet, like the ones that Japan (not including F-35s) and Taiwan have, J-16s probably will be at a distinctive advantage. It would be a mistake to assume the latest USAF technology cannot compete with the latest PLAAF technology.



UKBengali said:


> Electronics does not just include the AESA radar.
> 
> It is the full EW suite and there is no way that China has matched the French yet in this respect - they are probably close but not yet up there.
> 
> Also remember that the French have tested their systems in conflicts around the world and so have that extra vital real-world experience that China lacks.
> 
> As a real example of how capable the French fighter electronics are, the Rafale went into Libya without any growler escorts as it could "blind' the Libyan air-defence systems. I know they are not the most advanced in the world but neither the UK or the USA dared send in their fighters without dedicated EW escort aircraft as well.
> 
> Think there is just a bit too much nationalism and not enough realism here.
> Not the same analogy dude.


USAF was specific that China's advances include not just radar, but electronics attack, defense, signal intelligence and all aspect of Electronic warfare. Keep in mind that Chinese EW suite would also be emitting signals from AESA radar. There is no reason a radar that is capable of emitting different pulses at different frequencies would not be able to do the same with electronics attack and defense.

As for vital real-world, you obviously haven't followed what's been going on around China. USAF did not get all this details of Chinese EW capabilities in vacuum. They got them from Taiwan/Japan air defense and fighter jet who are obviously having trouble dealing with intruding PLAAF aircraft. Taiwan has already given up trying to intercept PLAAF aircraft and is leaving it's old air defense radar system at the mercy of J-16s, H-6s and Y-8s. At this point, any reports from Taiwan about the number/types of intruding PLAAF aircraft need to be taken with a grain of salt, because PLAAF is just fooling around with them.



UKBengali said:


> There is no compelling evidence that the J-20 is better in any way than 4+ fighters apart from in the area of stealth. In fact China is yet to field 5th gen engines in J-20 and the engines in Western 4+ gen fighters are of a higher technological level.
> 
> China is getting there but it will take probably 1/2 more decades before it can become a world leader in military technology.


What in the world are you talking about? The aerodynamic layout in J-20 is extremely advanced. The only thing you can call 4th generation is the engine. And nobody has indicated that they are anything but late 4th generation engine. And J-20 with WS-15 are being tested right now. At a minimum, the statements from USAF shows that they regard PLAAF as a worthy adversary in the electronics space. And the radar/EW suite on J-20 would be of a later generation than what's on Rafale.

Also keep in mind that there is a difference between Western countries. Let's assume China is 1/2 decade behind the latest USAF technology in EW. It's still probably at least at parity, if not a few years ahead of the Europeans.

Have the French done any major upgrade to Rafale's radar/EW suite since 2013? If they have, why is RBE-AA still one with just 800 T/R modules.

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## arjunk

UKBengali said:


> 14 Meteors and 2 IRIS-Ts in "Beast Mode


And it handles like an A380

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## UKBengali

arjunk said:


> And it handles like an A380




Did you miss the part where I stated 180kN in thrust in total?


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## Blueskiez 2001

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is an important question---then one may be led to ask---what has stopped the paf from buying the J10's----.
> 
> All the world knows that there maybe sanctions on pakistan one more time---or the U S may simply put hurdles in the sale of the F16----.
> 
> And the new hurdle is that the senators would okay the sale but refuse to release the money---.
> 
> So----yes---why did the paf not decide 3 years ago to get this aircraft---learn to operate it and modify it according to their needs.
> 
> The only way you can get these answers is to put the different air chiefs and seniors officials on THE HOT SEAT in the parliament and on the TV and someone with knowledge needs to GRIIL them on the issue.
> 
> There needs to be some fire lit under their feet.
> 
> When the PAF says that we were waiting for the choice of MMRCA to be finalized to make our decision----my question is FOR WHAT PURPOSE---you are only going to get what you are going to get---there are no miracles happening---so why not take advantage of the time that you have been given and imporve on the J10.
> 
> Now this option for the JF17 that I mention is for that very reason that the paf has not picked up the J10C---. Seems like they don't like the engineering concept behind the aircraft.
> 
> For that reason---then a change needs to be made to the JF17. The current aircraft is a successful example and to modify it to a slightly larger scale and wheel modification will not cost a lot.
> 
> If the whole JF17 program cost 400 mil dollars---this modification would cost in the range of less than 50 mil dollars and less than a year---so the overall cost will be miniscule when absorbed by 150-200 fighter aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Uptill now they have shown to be one of the most fckd up organization of our military---.





MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> No---the deal would have been done some 8 years ago.
> 
> Picked the aircraft---the engine---the ew package---finalized the ew package and the engine---went into production---flight traing---integration of weapons system etc etc etc---then pilot training.
> 
> So---when I stated the deal was done somewhere around 2014---that is the time period that it falls under.



Salaam Mastankhan

Sometimes we all have a tendency to analyze and criticize from non-available data.

It sounds very interesting if PAF has been involved involved in the J-10 program since 2014... I do not have any knowledge of that so I can´t comment on it. But it sounds a bit of a long induction period UNLESS as you have stated that PAF was directly involved in the technical specifications of the air craft, because development, installation and the most important part integration takes a lot of time and resources. 

The reason I have quoted your two post is just for an example of how difficult it can be to get knowledge and predict what has happened when you are evaluating on the present knowledge and how easy it is to do it hindsight. 

So my take is on what stopped PAF to buy J-10 was that they wanted it to be better than it was. PAF worked with Chengdu with their knowledge and specification improvement. Some people may think thank PAF doesn´t have anything to bring to the table. And they are certainly wrong. YES they cant bring any industrial base to the table but they can absolutely bring aviation knowledge (and exposed to western tech) to the table. AND this is something you can´t buy or develop indigenously.

regards

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## arjunk

UKBengali said:


> J-10C is not even Pakistani plane.


So?

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## serenity

tphuang said:


> On the topic of learning AESA and unlearning mechanically scanned radar, one also has to remember there is an EW suite version of this. Remember when Pakistan bought F-16 and how DFRM talked about glowingly here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russian EW Weaknesses Endure While Other Nations Innovate
> 
> 
> Russia’s EW system development has failed to change direction to account for inherent weaknesses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ainonline.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This article about how Russia is backward now because it still uses DFRM against modern radar. You know when the Russians use it, it can't be that advanced. Other thing to think about is that with Rafale using AESA radar with LPI behavior, F-16 and probably block 1/2 JF-17 would have hard time confusing its radar with older EW suite technology. It's probably why J-10s and block 3 JF-17s are needed. You need modern EW suite to combat a modern radar. Similarly, Rafale's EW suite would have a hard time jamming the latest Chinese radar given what USAF has described about Chinese radar's ability to change pulse shaping and presumably frequency hop. Having more T/R modules do help here, since you can operate on more different frequencies.
> 
> 
> I would be cautious in thinking that US is behind China here. I've listened to them talk about this and the USAF is being extremely humble and cautious when talking about the ability of USAF conducting EW vs China so that everyone will take China's modern techs seriously.
> 
> I think USAF statement shows that China is very advanced in EW and it's raising alarm bells within USAF. Against older American fighter jet, like the ones that Japan (not including F-35s) and Taiwan have, J-16s probably will be at a distinctive advantage. It would be a mistake to assume the latest USAF technology cannot compete with the latest PLAAF technology.
> 
> 
> USAF was specific that China's advances include not just radar, but electronics attack, defense, signal intelligence and all aspect of Electronic warfare. Keep in mind that Chinese EW suite would also be emitting signals from AESA radar. There is no reason a radar that is capable of emitting different pulses at different frequencies would not be able to do the same with electronics attack and defense.
> 
> As for vital real-world, you obviously haven't followed what's been going on around China. USAF did not get all this details of Chinese EW capabilities in vacuum. They got them from Taiwan/Japan air defense and fighter jet who are obviously having trouble dealing with intruding PLAAF aircraft. Taiwan has already given up trying to intercept PLAAF aircraft and is leaving it's old air defense radar system at the mercy of J-16s, H-6s and Y-8s. At this point, any reports from Taiwan about the number/types of intruding PLAAF aircraft need to be taken with a grain of salt, because PLAAF is just fooling around with them.
> 
> 
> What in the world are you talking about? The aerodynamic layout in J-20 is extremely advanced. The only thing you can call 4th generation is the engine. And nobody has indicated that they are anything but late 4th generation engine. And J-20 with WS-15 are being tested right now. At a minimum, the statements from USAF shows that they regard PLAAF as a worthy adversary in the electronics space. And the radar/EW suite on J-20 would be of a later generation than what's on Rafale.
> 
> Also keep in mind that there is a difference between Western countries. Let's assume China is 1/2 decade behind the latest USAF technology in EW. It's still probably at least at parity, if not a few years ahead of the Europeans.
> 
> Have the French done any major upgrade to Rafale's radar/EW suite since 2013? If they have, why is RBE-AA still one with just 800 T/R modules.



I didn't say PLAAF is ahead of USAF. It is to bring to the attention that China is not some below France level country in electronic war. In fact it is an equal to the US.

Which you seem to agree with. Rafale's AESA modules are from the US. The French do not make it themselves.

China has made photonic radar technologies for nearly 10 years now. They should be towards the completion end of their development. To talk about RBE's AESA to J-10C's even is doing J-10C a great disservice. Like comparing a 2022 Mercedes S class with 2010 Renault. The Chinese have been AESA leaders for some time WITH the USA. This isn't China's first AESA not even close. However what PAF gets may not be the same as what PLAAF uses due to opsec reasons.



UKBengali said:


> No analysis given, 122 posts in total and a Pakistani fanboy at the same time.
> 
> Stop embarrassing yourself here.
> 
> J-10C is not even Pakistani plane. Put on ignore list as you are a time waster.
> 
> @tphuang
> 
> I know you are a nationalist dude but you are getting carried away a little in your post there.
> 
> It is fine as you are free to believe what you want.
> 
> Taiwan will soon get F-16Vs and they will show the PLAAF that the West is still a little ahead in electronics.



Don't take this the wrong way but honestly you have only been attacking others and making empty proclamations.

So how is the F-16V got better electronics. Surely none of us here truly know. Therefore the confidence comes from ?

Anyway friend. It's better not to get too heated with these things. We can all believe whatever we want. I've tried to give some reasons with evidence like what technologies China's already shown and demonstrated to be effective and works. They are not Ghatak drones of dreaming and posturing. Chinese hypersonic aircrafts do fly ... even around the globe. 6G technology currently in action in space. Quantum computers are receiving dedicated OS for certain problem solving. Just few examples showing that perhaps it's not all so plainly west is always best. Anyway it's easy to call something as said by a Chinese nationalist. Just like it is to claim it for whoever. Honestly China shows but a fraction of what it is doing and has already done and mastered. It isn't out to win perception wars (which is partly why stigmas continue) nor is it interested in convincing everyone of its abilities.

In many domains China is behind the US and in some quite far behind but in a few it is matching and in some it is exceeding. This was far from the case even 20 years ago.

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## Vapnope

The discussion has drifted to J10c vs Rafale. I think no one should have a doubt about capabilities of Rafale as we still use Mirages and they continue to serve us well. 

I'd request you guys to stop mocking each other because it would not do anything good for the thread at hand.

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## araz

Deino said:


> Not sure how reliable this site is ... seems he still rates those J-10CP images as faked and otherwise this account looks more than "fishy"!


Dont make any sense. It seems listening to these people that PAF has started growing a money tree.
Apart from the financial issue the actual acquisition does not make sense at all.
A



UKBengali said:


> 14 Meteors and 2 IRIS-Ts in "Beast Mode" - 180kN of thrust from the 2 EJ-2000 engines. J-10C would not want to fight something like this. Kid, think it is time for you not to get involved in adult conversation here.
> 
> View attachment 818127


Beta.
Keep your enthusiasm to yourself. No one in their right mind will come to a war arena loaded up like that. Can you imagine what happens if the oponent fires a AAM towards you. You will be forced to jetison the load and run to avoid the AAM.
A

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## Windjammer

Just for the record, compare the size difference between a J-10C and a Thunder Bravo.

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## SD 10

UKBengali said:


> 14 Meteors and 2 IRIS-Ts in "Beast Mode" - 180kN of thrust from the 2 EJ-2000 engines. J-10C would not want to fight something like this. Kid, think it is time for you not to get involved in adult conversation here.
> 
> View attachment 818127


keep on dreaming........... talk about it when you can get it, rightnow they wont even give you the RC model kid!

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## messiach

@All
Ref to Jian10 : some acquisitions are made with the mutual intent of longterm political, strategic and technical goals in mind.
x

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## KampfAlwin

UKBengali said:


> Do you seriously think that Rafale is not a good aircraft?
> 
> Both India and Indonesia have brough it and nearly 300 have been sold abroad. It is not just Arabs that have brought the plane.
> 
> With Western nations you forget that they share technology and so a lot of US technology does make it's way into the hands of other Western nations.
> 
> With China they pretty much are on their own and so harder for them.


Ok. When and where did I say Rafale is not a good aircraft? Stop putting words in my mouth. Why do you keep insulting many people, calling them 'fanboys' and 'nationalists' when you are ironically and hypocritically being one right now? You ask for quality conversation yet you don't engage similarly. 

You're also saying France/UK has to rely on US for tech transfers? Doesn't that imply they're incapable of innovation, while China can do it all on her own? You never elaborate on _*how*,_ just_ *how*_ France is more advanced than China in tech. Your arguments basically boil down to just saying_ "French tech better because, I dunno, they're Europeans? And Europeans are superior."_ That is not* evidence*. Give me *concrete evidence* on how French tech is superior. What does their radar/engines/airframe have that is superior to China's? Why couldn't they field a 5th gen before China, but somehow is more superior in that area than them? etc

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## Man of steel23

messiach said:


> @All
> Ref to Jian10 : some acquisitions are made with the mutual intent of longterm political, strategic and technical goals in mind.
> x


The use of at all is a first one


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## Zarf

araz said:


> Dont make any sense. It seems lisrening to these people that PAF has started growing a money tree.
> Apart from the financial issue the actual acquisition does not make sense at all.
> A
> 
> 
> Beta.
> Keep your enthusiasm to yourself. No one in their right mind will come to a war arena loaded up like that. Can you imagine what happens if the oponent fires a AAM towards you. You will be forced to jetison the load and run to avoid the AAM.
> A


I doubt that Indians will send rafale in a skirmish like 27 Feb. While Pakistan will send J-10 for sure.


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## araz

Zarf said:


> I doubt that Indians will send rafale in a skirmish like 27 Feb. While Pakistan will send J-10 for sure.


Not for the next 2-3 years. Our go to fighter will remain JFT and the venerable F solah.
A

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## Aesterix

Windjammer said:


> Just for the record, compare the size difference between a J-10C and a Thunder Bravo.
> 
> View attachment 818216


I think it's L-15 not Thunder Bravo

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## SD 10

Aesterix said:


> I think it's L-15 not Thunder Bravo


its thunder man!

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## siegecrossbow

Aesterix said:


> I think it's L-15 not Thunder Bravo



L-15 has two engines.

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## TheTallGuy

Zarf said:


> I doubt that Indians will send rafale in a skirmish like 27 Feb. While Pakistan will send J-10 for sure.



as soon as J10CE are inducted official the squadron will attain combat ready status within a month or less.

@MastanKhan 

in one of your post you had pointed out that pilots training of AESA will have to "un-learned" the previous methods.

I want to add food for thought.

there is a wide difference in close couple delta combat envelope and lets say "F16" combat envelope. why are you considering that CAT A pilots trained of J10CE. 

there are quite a lot of Mirage drivers who know how to handle a delta in close combat as well in BVR.

this is the reason why more the 50+ (approx) made the conversion in china and nobody noticed. (secret aside)

F16s pilots stay at F16s - new league of delta drivers are in town. who have been exposed to AESA from Get go!

wonders of having 1 is 2.5 cockpit ratio

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## Trailer23

Aesterix said:


> I think it's L-15 not Thunder Bravo


Seriously...
Have you ever seen an L-15?





​The two engines at back would've been a dead giveaway. Besides, there are like no similarities between the two.

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## Areesh

Aesterix said:


> I think it's L-15 not Thunder Bravo



Bhai kia ho gaya? Clearly JFT hai

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## Skywalker

Aesterix said:


> I think it's L-15 not Thunder Bravo


abey jaag ja bhai.


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## Khan vilatey

Aesterix said:


> I think it's L-15 not Thunder Bravo


Trouble maker 

K

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## Aesterix

Skywalker said:


> abey jaag ja bhai.


Nahi bhai, Hum chapat maar kay bhaag janay waloon mein sey hain... Now reading reply comments . lol

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## MastanKhan

Blueskiez 2001 said:


> Salaam Mastankhan
> 
> Sometimes we all have a tendency to analyze and criticize from non-available data.
> 
> It sounds very interesting if PAF has been involved involved in the J-10 program since 2014... I do not have any knowledge of that so I can´t comment on it. But it sounds a bit of a long induction period UNLESS as you have stated that PAF was directly involved in the technical specifications of the air craft, because development, installation and the most important part integration takes a lot of time and resources.
> 
> The reason I have quoted your two post is just for an example of how difficult it can be to get knowledge and predict what has happened when you are evaluating on the present knowledge and how easy it is to do it hindsight.
> 
> So my take is on what stopped PAF to buy J-10 was that they wanted it to be better than it was. PAF worked with Chengdu with their knowledge and specification improvement. Some people may think thank PAF doesn´t have anything to bring to the table. And they are certainly wrong. YES they cant bring any industrial base to the table but they can absolutely bring aviation knowledge (and exposed to western tech) to the table. AND this is something you can´t buy or develop indigenously.
> 
> regards



Hi,

The decision to go for the J10's was during Musdharraf's regime when he made the agreement for the 36 units and to which the Paf had come up with the shortcomings of the J10 at that time and suggested some 50 changes per the Retd AM Lateef.

The current deal of the J10's came into being in or around 2014 and in 2014 I had stated the same on this forum.

To get to where the J10C is today just did not happen like that---. The aircraft needed a newly designed and tested aesa radar and other ew package----as well as the power plant.

As I am getting older---sometimes I have to go back in memory and remember things---.

The most important part of every item in the aircraft when put together is the PLAYBOOK / OR TACTICS of air combat put together for this aircraft.

Which basically determines the combat and flight characteristics of the aircraft and the pilot under different conditions of combat and this is as time consuming and intense as manufacturing the aesa radar or any other part of the aircraft---.

The J10 is 3-5 years away from being used to its fullest---the JF17 BLK 3---about 5-7 years away.

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## tphuang

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The decision to go for the J10's was during Musdharraf's regime when he made the agreement for the 36 units and to which the Paf had come up with the shortcomings of the J10 at that time and suggested some 50 changes per the Retd AM Lateef.
> 
> The current deal of the J10's came into being in or around 2014 and in 2014 I had stated the same on this forum.
> 
> To get to where the J10C is today just did not happen like that---. The aircraft needed a newly designed and tested aesa radar and other ew package----as well as the power plant.
> 
> As I am getting older---sometimes I have to go back in memory and remember things---.
> 
> The most important part of every item in the aircraft when put together is the PLAYBOOK / OR TACTICS of air combat put together for this aircraft.
> 
> Which basically determines the combat and flight characteristics of the aircraft and the pilot under different conditions of combat and this is as time consuming and intense as manufacturing the aesa radar or any other part of the aircraft---.
> 
> The J10 is 3-5 years away from being used to its fullest---the JF17 BLK 3---about 5-7 years away.



You have to determine the internal layout of an aircraft very early on in the process. For J-10B/C, this would've had to been determined back in mid 2000s. So all the electronics we have on J-10C today would've been some version of things CAC determined was needed back then. There is just not a lot additional space to put new stuff. For example, the diameter, the power requirement and heat management of radar would have to be determined back then. Sure, PAF might have given PLAAF some feedback based on their initial experience with J-10A (keep in mind that J-10C was not in service back in 2014), but 2014 would've been too late for China to do wholesale changes to J-10C package.

And more importantly, the ultimate goal of China in this space is to catch and surpass American technology. So, you see them going through all the research journals, papers and probably hacking confidential data in order to figure out exactly what makes sense for future radar/EW suite system. That's how they arrived at where they are today. By a lot of hard work and learning from every source that's available (especially American ones). Don't make it sound like CAC needed Pakistan to tell them that J-10C needed an AESA radar or new EW suite. Those are obvious things. Getting those things developed by 2015/2016 required a heavy investment from back in early to late 2000s (until now) into military electronics industry.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The decision to go for the J10's was during Musdharraf's regime when he made the agreement for the 36 units and to which the Paf had come up with the shortcomings of the J10 at that time and suggested some 50 changes per the Retd AM Lateef.
> 
> *The current deal of the J10's came into being in or around 2014 and in 2014 I had stated the same on this forum.*
> 
> To get to where the J10C is today just did not happen like that---. The aircraft needed a newly designed and tested aesa radar and other ew package----as well as the power plant.
> 
> As I am getting older---sometimes I have to go back in memory and remember things---.
> 
> The most important part of every item in the aircraft when put together is the PLAYBOOK / OR TACTICS of air combat put together for this aircraft.
> 
> Which basically determines the combat and flight characteristics of the aircraft and the pilot under different conditions of combat and this is as time consuming and intense as manufacturing the aesa radar or any other part of the aircraft---.
> 
> The J10 is 3-5 years away from being used to its fullest---the JF17 BLK 3---about 5-7 years away.


There is a limit to how much info can be said here, but your year estimate is way off. It is a lot nearer to the end of the decade. Unfortunately cannot say more than that.

But nonetheless, good points regarding TACTICS

Cheers

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## MastanKhan

TheTallGuy said:


> as soon as J10CE are inducted official the squadron will attain combat ready status within a month or less.
> 
> @MastanKhan
> 
> in one of your post you had pointed out that pilots training of AESA will have to "un-learned" the previous methods.
> 
> I want to add food for thought.
> 
> there is a wide difference in close couple delta combat envelope and lets say "F16" combat envelope. why are you considering that CAT A pilots trained of J10CE.
> 
> there are quite a lot of Mirage drivers who know how to handle a delta in close combat as well in BVR.
> 
> this is the reason why more the 50+ (approx) made the conversion in china and nobody noticed. (secret aside)
> 
> F16s pilots stay at F16s - new league of delta drivers are in town. who have been exposed to AESA from Get go!
> 
> wonders of having 1 is 2.5 cockpit ratio



Hi

Thank you ---thanks @tphuang thanks @Raider 21 ---I love how a police detectives work when asking some basic simple questions and then the truth blurts out like a waterfall.

We have shared the information as it became known to us and think of it as the truth---and when all the truths are put together---a real picture emerges---some of us will see thru it and others will be confused.

Interesting thing is---the the discussion has moved away from specs and how many hard points the aircraft has---.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi
> 
> Thank you ---thanks @tphuang thanks @Raider 21 ---I love how a police detectives work when asking some basic simple questions and then the truth blurts out like a waterfall.
> 
> We have shared the information as it became known to us and think of it as the truth---and when all the truths are put together---a real picture emerges---some of us will see thru it and others will be confused.
> 
> Interesting thing is---the the discussion has moved away from specs and how many hard points the aircraft has---.


Welcome


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## KampfAlwin

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497080027103768576

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## Cool_Soldier

I hope there will be some High Tech domestic products such as JF 17 III along with Strategic weapons, Chines imported stuff such as J10 C , Z10 ME, VT 4, HQ 9P, Turkish Drones Baktar 2 and some Russian weapons like MI 35 along with some new Surprise, medium range Air defence System will be the part of 23rd March Parade.
Presence of high Level of delegations from above mentioned countries and Middle East economical powers will add further charm to event and solidarity.

This will clearly indicate regional cooperation and country's military strength is being evolved with firm and rapid pace.

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## Aesterix

22-102 another picture






Credit @CN_military_21 on twitter

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## Deino

Aesterix said:


> 22-102 another picture
> View attachment 818448
> 
> 
> Credit @CN_military_21 on twitter




From the same video posted above !

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

KampfAlwin said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497080027103768576


Thank God there is no smoke.

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## Areesh

While we keep on seeing 22-102 and 22-106 again and again, where are the aircraft with other serial numbers?


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## KampfAlwin

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Thank God there is no smoke.


The first few seconds you see the engine dumping fuel since it is about to land. The picture of the plane shown a few days ago with the alleged engine ‘smoke’, is from exactly this video. You can see the ‘smoke’ is clearly white which means it is fuel.

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## Dreamer.

Areesh said:


> While we keep on seeing 22-102 and 22-106 again and again, where are the aircraft with other serial numbers?


A certain someone here claims to have pics of 22-103 and 22-105 aswell but won't post them. I mean what's the secret now?.....it's already out. Anyway one can hope that we'll get to see pics of at least 101-106 once they're inducted, if not 107, 108.....etc. etc.

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## Deino

Dreamer. said:


> A certain someone here claims to have pics of 22-103 and 22-105 as well but won't post them. I mean what's the secret now?.....it's already out. Anyway one can hope that we'll get to see pics of at least 101-106 once they're inducted, if not 107, 108.....etc. etc.




Agreed and a friend said the same for 22-101 but I won't share it; at least not yet.


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## Deino

Deino said:


> Agreed and a friend said the same for 22-101 but I won't share it; at least not yet.




Now I was allowed ...

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## K Shehzad

The J-10 was offered to Pakistan in 2006 and negotiations persisted into 2012. In September 2020, it was reported that Pakistan was interested in the J-10CE. In December 2021, Pakistan announced the purchase of 25 J-10Cs; they were projected to enter service in March 2022. J-10C: An upgraded version of J-10B, it is equipped with an indigenous Active electronically scanned array (AESA) fire-control radar and is equipped with imaging infrared seeker (IIR) PL-10, WS-10B engine and new dual pulse rocket motor PL-15 air-to-air missile (AAM).

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## Deino

And now also 22-103

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## maverick1977

Log into Facebook


Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.




www.facebook.com

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## Deino

maverick1977 said:


> Log into Facebook
> 
> 
> Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.facebook.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 818518




What is the intention of this post?? ... link says, content no longer available!


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## maverick1977

Deino said:


> What is the intention of this post?? ... link says, content no longer available!


quite evident, J10C with PAF colors flying


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## Deino

maverick1977 said:


> quite evident, J10C with PAF colors flying




Yes, but since the video was already posted and pieces of it in much better quality I thought it might content something "special"!

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## White privilege

Deino said:


> And now also 22-103
> 
> View attachment 818492


Man, that PAF livery is sexy..!!!


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## Windjammer



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## maverick1977

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 818570


i can wait to see this birdie armed to teeth... waiting for that pic to show up in couple of months... so exciting.


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## Readerdefence

Hi. By the way why PAF is not having IFR probe on every j10 
is it really a expensive item to reduce the cost or the reason can be something else as plug and play reason can go for aircrafts in lot of numbers but not like 24/36 a big number 
as my thought is these J10s can be used for naval strike role also shouldn’t all be have probe installed 
anybody with more and better answer to reply for my post 
thank you


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## Beast

Readerdefence said:


> Hi. By the way why PAF is not having IFR probe on every j10
> is it really a expensive item to reduce the cost or the reason can be something else as plug and play reason can go for aircrafts in lot of numbers but not like 24/36 a big number
> as my thought is these J10s can be used for naval strike role also shouldn’t all be have probe installed
> anybody with more and better answer to reply for my post
> thank you


They can be installed anytime depend on mission. There is a panel there where removed and IFR probe installed in less than 45mins.

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## WinterFangs

watching those planes land….. shed some manly tears 🥲

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## SD 10

Readerdefence said:


> Hi. By the way why PAF is not having IFR probe on every j10
> is it really a expensive item to reduce the cost or the reason can be something else as plug and play reason can go for aircrafts in lot of numbers but not like 24/36 a big number
> as my thought is these J10s can be used for naval strike role also shouldn’t all be have probe installed
> anybody with more and better answer to reply for my post
> thank you


your thoughts are wrong, kindly dont think  🤦‍♂️

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## Khan vilatey

I have read a lot of the posts here and want validation of some conclusions drawn

1) we started the J-10c induction negotiations between 2014-2019 

2) we would probably induct around 100-150 j-10c and these will replace the mirage’s SEAD, nava and deep strike role along and f-16 in air dominance roles 

3) jf-17 block 2 and 3 will be used as escorts in j-10c strike missions and in CAS roles j-10 c would provide escort 

4) induction and Operationalization will take 1-3 years 

5) f-16s will be phased out over the next 20 years and would be used for heavy strike and air dominance roles within Pakistani territory. 

6) The shelf life of our AMRAM -120 is about to come to an end in the next 5 yers assuming we bought those in 2010 -2015 and a 10 year shelf life

K

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## Readerdefence

SD 10 said:


> your thoughts are wrong, kindly dont think  🤦‍♂️


Hi thx for rectify my thoughts with your in depth input 😒



Beast said:


> They can be installed anytime depend on mission. There is a panel there where removed and IFR probe installed in less than 45mins.


Hi Beast thx for your detailed reply for my post

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## Riz

I was hoping this type of color scheme on J-10CP @PAF please yaar kuch to change kar do

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Cool_Soldier said:


> I hope there will be some High Tech domestic products such as JF 17 III along with Strategic weapons, Chines imported stuff such as J10 C , Z10 ME, VT 4, HQ 9P, Turkish Drones Baktar 2 and some Russian weapons like MI 35 along with some new Surprise, medium range Air defence System will be the part of 23rd March Parade.
> Presence of high Level of delegations from above mentioned countries and Middle East economical powers will add further charm to event and solidarity.
> 
> This will clearly indicate regional cooperation and country's military strength is being evolved with firm and rapid pace.


The paralysis of the NATO is showing something is better than nothing....



Khan vilatey said:


> 6) The shelf life of our AMRAM -120 is about to come to an end in the next 5 yers assuming we bought those in 2010 -2015 and a 10 year shelf life
> 
> K


Hopefully, Turkey's WVR/BVR missiles along with AESA radar are ready by then for integration with F16s....


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## Sayfullah

Learning from Ukraine conflict, Air Force and artillery is the most important assets in modern warfare for any military. Pakistan should induct J-10C in high numbers. Since we’re a smaller military we must always have a edge over Indians in the air. Whoever controls the air wins the war nowadays. We should aim at getting at least 90 J-10C.

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## TheDarkKnight

Deino said:


> Now I was allowed ...
> 
> View attachment 818470


Wow amazing. What a beauty.


----------



## StructE

Khan vilatey said:


> I have read a lot of the posts here and want validation of some conclusions drawn
> 
> 1) we started the J-10c induction negotiations between 2014-2019
> 
> 2) we would probably induct around 100-150 j-10c and these will replace the mirage’s SEAD, nava and deep strike role along and f-16 in air dominance roles
> 
> 3) jf-17 block 2 and 3 will be used as escorts in j-10c strike missions and in CAS roles j-10 c would provide escort
> 
> 4) induction and Operationalization will take 1-3 years
> 
> 5) f-16s will be phased out over the next 20 years and would be used for heavy strike and air dominance roles within Pakistani territory.
> 
> 6) The shelf life of our AMRAM -120 is about to come to an end in the next 5 yers assuming we bought those in 2010 -2015 and a 10 year shelf life
> 
> K


Amram's are maintained by US contractor, shelf life is extended as needed.

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## Beast

Riz said:


> View attachment 818624
> 
> I was hoping this type of color scheme on J-10CP @PAF please yaar kuch to change kar do
> 
> View attachment 818625


The current color scheme is best for dogfight. You can have plenty of fanciful military camouflage scheme but they are not practical.

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## Khan vilatey

StructE said:


> Amram's are maintained by US contractor, shelf life is extended as needed.


i didn’t know you could extend life of AMRAMS without changing critical components like rocket motors etc. the key question is will America give us the spares to continue to maintain these weapons. In the 90s one reason for retreating from kargil was running out of spares for the f-16s 

K

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## KampfAlwin

J-10CP #22-106. Most definitely a WS-10B engine!

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## Deino

KampfAlwin said:


> J-10CP #22-106. Most definitely a WS-10B engine!
> View attachment 818763




Yes, there is NO doubt! As such I really don't understand, why @messiach is still telling that strange story of an AL-31F ToT! There is aircraft in PAF service using that engine and it makes simply no sense ...

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## KampfAlwin

Deino said:


> Yes, there is NO doubt! As such I really don't understand, why @messiach is still telling that strange story of an AL-31F ToT! There is aircraft in PAF service using that engine and it makes simply no sense ...


A bit unrelated, but the fact that a Chinese jet engine is now being exported is a huge sign of things to come for the Chinese aviation industry in the future.

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## Beast

KampfAlwin said:


> J-10CP #22-106. Most definitely a WS-10B engine!
> View attachment 818763


But the plane is still at Chengdu CAC...



Deino said:


> Yes, there is NO doubt! As such I really don't understand, why @messiach is still telling that strange story of an AL-31F ToT! There is aircraft in PAF service using that engine and it makes simply no sense ...


There many so called many fake informer lurking here claiming to be reliable source.



KampfAlwin said:


> A bit unrelated, but the fact that a Chinese jet engine is now being exported is a huge sign of things to come for the Chinese aviation industry in the future.


True but Chinese has been exporting aircraft with their own engine since the 60s. From F-6, J-7 to even K-8 if requested. I don't think it came as a big surprise.

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## Sayfullah

Deino said:


> Yes, there is NO doubt! As such I really don't understand, why @messiach is still telling that strange story of an AL-31F ToT! There is aircraft in PAF service using that engine and it makes simply no sense ...


What if PAF is also getting used Chinese Su 35’s and for that it’s getting ToT for MRO facility for AL-31F


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## Deino

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> What if PAF is also getting used Chinese Su 35’s and for that it’s getting ToT for MRO facility for AL-31F




But is this confirmed? And even more the Su-35 does ot use an AL-31F, it's using a vastly different TVC variant based on the AL-31 called the 117S or AL-41F1S. And Russia NEVER will give Pakistan ToT for an engine it did not get from Russian but from China ... unless they agreed.

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## spectregunship

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> What if PAF is also getting used Chinese Su 35’s and for that it’s getting ToT for MRO facility for AL-31F



While I cannot say that the argument is unvalidated... but IMO there is very less chance that we go for SU35 from the Chinese and especially with the current Russo - Ukr conflict.. it does not make sense and it wont be happening for obvious logistical reasons... A lot of effort has gone through in making preparations for inducting J10s and there is laser focus on preparing for post induction steps / procedures... It is my opinion tbh

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## Dreamer.

Deino said:


> But is this confirmed? And even more the Su-35 does ot use an AL-31F, it's using a vastly different TVC variant based on the AL-31 called the 117S or AL-41F1S. And *Russia NEVER will give* Pakistan ToT for an engine it did not get from Russian but from China ... *unless they agreed.*


Oh ok.

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## NA71

Now some hrs left... 27/2.... Any update of Possible surprise J10c I induction ceremony on 27/2?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Engima Chaudhry

Khan vilatey said:


> i didn’t know you could extend life of AMRAMS without changing critical components like rocket motors etc. the key question is will America give us the spares to continue to maintain these weapons. In the 90s one reason for retreating from kargil was running out of spares for the f-16s
> 
> K


The propellant has an expiry date. It has to be changed after a certain period.


----------



## siegecrossbow

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> What if PAF is also getting used Chinese Su 35’s and for that it’s getting ToT for MRO facility for AL-31F



why not TVC equipped lochness monsters as well.

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## Avicenna

Beast said:


> The current color scheme is best for dogfight. You can have plenty of fanciful military camouflage scheme but they are not practical.



A shift to low-viz schemes means you are preparing for something.

Pretty peacock camo is for airshows.

PAF J-10C is GORGEOUS!

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## NA71

Delivered?

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## NA71



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## Windjammer



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## MultaniGuy

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> View attachment 818882


Wow, I can't believe it. A plane finally comparable to the F-16, made by China.

Looks like China has come a long way since 2001.

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## Aesterix

siegecrossbow said:


> why not TVC equipped lochness monsters as well.


Because you Chinese don't want to give us the best stuff ...... and that PAF doesn't want TVC shenanigans

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## siegecrossbow

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 818923



PAF's camo fits the aircraft so much better.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

China’s J-10C secures Pakistan as its first export market​By Greg Waldron21 February 2022

Pakistan appears to have become the first export customer for the Chengdu J-10 fighter, with images of J-10Cs in Pakistan air force markings appearing on Chinese social media.
The images appear to have been shot in the Chinese city of Chengdu, where the single-engined fighter is produced.




A Pakistani J-10C lands in Chendgu
The development is a significant milestone for China’s aerospace sector, as it marks the first export order for the J-10, which is considered analogous to the Lockheed Martin F-16.
A Pakistani J-10 buy has been rumoured for over a decade. It is not clear how many examples Islamabad will obtain, but reports have placed the number in the 25 to 36 range. So far, two distinct serial numbers have been spotted, with the aircraft apparently conducting flight tests.
Judging from the aircraft’s thrust petals, the Pakistani J-10s use are powered by the Shenyang WS-10B engine, as opposed to the Saturn AL-31F. It was only in May 2021 that the first clear images emerged of a People’s Liberation Army Air Force J-10C powered by the WS-10B.
Mounted inside the J-10, the WS-10 can be identified by a few subtle features. One is that the afterburner nozzle petals are notably wider than on the AL-31. The WS-10 also has a ring structure around the interior of the nozzle that is absent on the AL-31.




A J-10C in Pakistani markings
Compared with previous versions of the J-10 – the J-10A and J-10B – the J-10C is equipped with an active electronically scanned array radar and an updated cockpit. It carries a broader array of weapons, including the long-range PL-15 air-to-air missile, which is believed to have a range greater than 107nm (200km).
According to AVIC, the export version of the J-10C is designated J-10CE. It claims that the aircraft has several advanced capabilities, including the ability to carry advanced beyond-visual-range missiles, and that it can also operate in a challenging electromagnetic environment. Moreover, it can perform a range of ground attack missions.








China’s J-10C secures Pakistan as its first export market


Pakistan appears to have become the first export customer for the Chengdu J-10 fighter, with images of J-10Cs in Pakistan air force markings appearing on Chinese social media.




www.flightglobal.com

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## White privilege

Deino said:


> Yes, there is NO doubt! As such I really don't understand, why @messiach is still telling that strange story of an AL-31F ToT! There is aircraft in PAF service using that engine and it makes simply no sense ...


Not going into specifics, but given the upcoming Turkish-Pakistani 5 gen jet, engine TOT from Russia is very much possible.



NA71 said:


> Now some hrs left... 27/2.... Any update of Possible surprise J10c I induction ceremony on 27/2?


_Blinders _just made their debut on media so that's a first.


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

siegecrossbow said:


> PAF's camo fits the aircraft so much better.


Love how flamboyant russians are with their distinctly colored birds.


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE




----------



## HRK

White privilege said:


> _Blinders _just made their debut on media so that's a first.


what where ... ???

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## White privilege

HRK said:


> what where ... ???


On GNN, just the crew though, not their birds.

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## maverick1977

Avicenna said:


> A shift to low-viz schemes means you are preparing for something.
> 
> Pretty peacock camo is for airshows.
> 
> PAF J-10C is GORGEOUS!


dont know why, i like J10C more in PAF colors than PLAAF colors lol

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## Iron Shrappenel

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 818923


My mangetar has competition 😍😍😍

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Deino said:


> Yes, there is NO doubt! As such I really don't understand, why @messiach is still telling that strange story of an AL-31F ToT! There is aircraft in PAF service using that engine and it makes simply no sense ...

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## ziaulislam

UKBengali said:


> Nope it is not as simple as that.
> 
> 1. France brought out a look-down shoot-down radar in the 1980s.
> It took China till the 2000s to do the same.
> 
> 2. Rafale came out with a PESA in 1999 and the Chinese had to wait around 10 years later to do the same.
> 
> 
> All those Chinese nationalists and some Pakistani fanboys forget that France does not have to make the T/R modules for the AESA as they have access to them off the shelf. France just does the integration of both the hardware and the software.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you agree with me then dude?
> 
> My original post said that the J-10C was roughly comparable to the Rafale.
> 
> While the J-10C may be slightly behind in electronics and missiles, it definitely would be better than Rafale in high-altitude aerodynamic performance. It is quite likely that the J-10C would have the edge in BVR duels with the Rafale.


China was poorer then pakistan in 1980
So its obvious it took china to do everything after 2000s

If we go by this logiv then britain should have the most superior tech even better then usa in 1950s since british were the first to do everything 
Or germans should have best tech since they did everything first

But this isnt true

In real world people can catch up

What matters is R&D and manfacturing power house

In reality only two countries have that caapcity

China and USA



UKBengali said:


> Do you seriously think that Rafale is not a good aircraft?
> 
> Both India and Indonesia have brough it and nearly 300 have been sold abroad. It is not just Arabs that have brought the plane.
> 
> With Western nations you forget that they share technology and so a lot of US technology does make it's way into the hands of other Western nations.
> 
> With China they pretty much are on their own and so harder for them.


There are only two other AESA options in medium categery

J10 not availble to anyone
&
F16b70 with complex poltical strings

Typhoon and others dont have a good AESA yet 

So rafale has no competition..when it did had competition it lost everytime to americans

China got huge exposure in 1980s & 1990s 
Evem till date they had exposure to isreali and russian tech

But this is valid point that they have low collabrative work

But so do french..americans or europeans dont share their stuff among each other this is wrong assumption

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## NA71

Shah Mehmood Quoreshi says PM will give surprise tomorrow....... Media

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## Dual Wielder

NA71 said:


> Shah Mehmood Quoreshi says PM will give surprise tomorrow....... Media


!RemindMeBot 23:59

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## WinterFangs

Psl final, and potential suprise. What a day tomorrow will be.

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## _NOBODY_

WinterFangs said:


> Psl final, and potential suprise. What a day tomorrow will be.


SO HYPED

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## kursed

Deino said:


> But is this confirmed? And even more the Su-35 does ot use an AL-31F, it's using a vastly different TVC variant based on the AL-31 called the 117S or AL-41F1S. And Russia NEVER will give Pakistan ToT for an engine it did not get from Russian but from China ... unless they agreed.


I genuinely doubt PAF would opt for Su-35, even if they were getting it for free.

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## The Terminator

GOAT said:


> Very interesting. Coincidentally, this article published today claims that:
> 
> “a lightweight fifth generation fighter with a single engine configuration, possibly using the same engine that in twin configuration powers the FC-31, is reportedly also under development to serve as a successor to the JF-17 on export markets with the Pakistani Air Force expected to be its primary client.”
> 
> Could this be what you are referring to?
> 
> Source: Single engine 5th gen successor to JF-17


What it would be able to carry in it's internal weapons bay? Couple of dozen eggs!


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## ghazi52

TEA Was Fantastic 27 February 2019 .
• PSL Final on 27 February 2022.
• AUS Coming to Pak on 27 Feb 2022.
27 February is going to be history making day ....

Welcome to Pakistan ........

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## Bin Laden

NA71 said:


> Shah Mehmood Quoreshi says PM will give surprise tomorrow....... Media


Su57 and s400 coming..

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## The Terminator

Areesh said:


> In coming months and years you would see these articles appearing in Indian media
> 
> 1. Pakistani J10s grounded due to poor safety and flying performance
> 2. Pakistan not happy with Chinese J10
> 3. Pakistan thinking to buy new platform due to poor performance of Chinese J10
> 
> etc etc
> 
> Be ready for such articles in near future


You missed one thing. Chinese engines regularly exploding in Pakistani J-10s mid air 😜. Engines are dead after 3 flight hours. 🤣🤣

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## AeroEngineer



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## Deino

White privilege said:


> Not going into specifics, but given the upcoming Turkish-Pakistani 5 gen jet, engine TOT from Russia is very much possible.




Care to explain, why Russia and not much more likely China? Do you really think a Russian engine will find its way into a Turkish-Pakistani joint development when in parallel the Pakistani AF is using Chinese engines in its later fighter acquisition and Turkey as a NATO member in any way won't ever get a Russian engine?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Deino said:


> Care to explain, why Russia and not much more likely China? Do you really think a Russian engine will find its way into a Turkish-Pakistani joint development when in parallel the Pakistani AF is using Chinese engines in its later fighter acquisition and Turkey as a NATO member in any way won't ever get a Russian engine?


The PAF says it wants an ITAR-free solution. However, I'll bet that the PAF will try its luck/fate and ask the US for the GE F110. It's a good engine; proven, cost-effective, and will power the initial TFX blocks. It seems far-fetched today, but you never know. If Pakistan's ties with America do ebb and flow, the next ebb (i.e., where ITAR engines can be on the table) could happen 10 years from now.

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## Avicenna

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF says it wants an ITAR-free solution. However, I'll bet that the PAF will try its luck/fate and ask the US for the GE F110. It's a good engine; proven, cost-effective, and will power the initial TFX blocks. It seems far-fetched today, but you never know. If Pakistan's ties with America do ebb and flow, the next ebb (i.e., where ITAR engines can be on the table) could happen 10 years from now.



Bro the dichotomy of US/China interests will become more pronounced going forwards.

Pakistan is a Chinese ally if there ever was one in the current situation.

I wouldn't bank on ANYTHING from the US at this point.

And even if you do get something, I would see that as a a sort of trojan horse to Pakistani interests.

Shifts in world alignment have been accelerated by the Ukraine situation.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Avicenna said:


> Bro the dichotomy of US/China interests will become more pronounced going forwards.
> 
> Pakistan is a Chinese ally if there ever was one in the current situation.
> 
> I wouldn't bank on ANYTHING from the US at this point.
> 
> And even if you do get something, I would see that as a a sort of trojan horse to Pakistani interests.
> 
> Shifts in world alignment have been accelerated by the Ukraine situation.


Fundamentally, Pakistan isn't 'aligning' with China.

We see a lot of statements to that effect, but Pakistan hasn't actually done anything big to further Chinese interests. Ironically, the one 'big' thing Pakistan did for China was at the behest of the US (i.e., helping establish ties between Washington and Beijing).

Operationally, we could argue that China and Pakistan are aligning more. However, this pairing likely has more to do with India than the U.S.

Beyond that, I wouldn't bank on Pakistan doing anything to jeopardize US interests wrt to China, or vice-versa. Pakistani leaders now have 2 roads to choose from: recede into an irrelevant party that just talks, or become a regional power with its own interests. I would rather we do the latter, but sadly, our leaders aren't equipped or interested. 

I disagree with retired Lt. Gen Tariq Khan on a lot of things, but of all the senior officials (serving or retired) I've heard, he's articulated the clearest vision for how things should be. @SQ8

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## luciferdd

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Fundamentally, Pakistan isn't 'aligning' with China.
> 
> We see a lot of statements to that effect, but Pakistan hasn't actually done anything big to further Chinese interests. Ironically, the one 'big' thing Pakistan did for China was at the behest of the US (i.e., helping establish ties between Washington and Beijing).
> 
> Operationally, we could argue that China and Pakistan are aligning more. However, this pairing likely has more to do with India than the U.S.
> 
> Beyond that, I wouldn't bank on Pakistan doing anything to jeopardize US interests wrt to China, or vice-versa. Pakistani leaders now have 2 roads to choose from: recede into an irrelevant party that just talks, or become a regional power with its own interests. I would rather we do the latter, but sadly, our leaders aren't equipped or interested.
> 
> I disagree with retired Lt. Gen Tariq Khan on a lot of things, but of all the senior officials (serving or retired) I've heard, he's articulated the clearest vision for how things should be. @SQ8


That's not importance,the key point is they(the us gov) don't trust you and they prefer India than you,know?

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## Taimoor Khan

They are not here yet. Weather en route is bad. 

Blk 3s are ready to take part on 23rd fly past.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

luciferdd said:


> That's not importance,the key point is they(the us gov) don't trust you and they prefer India than you,know?


The US gov't doesn't respect us, but it definitely trusts us to pull through for them.

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## PakLeader

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The US gov't doesn't respect us, but it definitely trusts us to pull through for them.


Disagree...there is definitely a trust deficit. They blame Pakistan for what happened in Afghanistan and do not trust us, why are we so reliant on China now for so many things now then? Pakistan is no position to openly go against the U.S and cannot rely on the U.S. It never could. As China rises we will be tilting more towards them, history had taught us the Americans are only our friends when it serves them. The future will be an interesting balancing act.

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## tphuang

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Fundamentally, Pakistan isn't 'aligning' with China.
> 
> We see a lot of statements to that effect, but Pakistan hasn't actually done anything big to further Chinese interests. Ironically, the one 'big' thing Pakistan did for China was at the behest of the US (i.e., helping establish ties between Washington and Beijing).
> 
> Operationally, we could argue that China and Pakistan are aligning more. However, this pairing likely has more to do with India than the U.S.
> 
> Beyond that, I wouldn't bank on Pakistan doing anything to jeopardize US interests wrt to China, or vice-versa. Pakistani leaders now have 2 roads to choose from: recede into an irrelevant party that just talks, or become a regional power with its own interests. I would rather we do the latter, but sadly, our leaders aren't equipped or interested.
> 
> I disagree with retired Lt. Gen Tariq Khan on a lot of things, but of all the senior officials (serving or retired) I've heard, he's articulated the clearest vision for how things should be. @SQ8



You need a wakeup call. China regards you as iron brothers. America regards you as the place that harbors terrorists. I'm not trying to be mean here. Just telling you how things are as someone who has lived in America for many years. You can act like you don't need to chose, but America will not give you that choice.

Maybe if this is how Pakistan really feels, it should articulate this belief to China and deal with the consequences. It should not string China along thinking that it has an ally in Pakistan.

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## dy1022

tphuang said:


> You need a wakeup call. China regards you as iron brothers. America regards you as the place that harbors terrorists. I'm not trying to be mean here. Just telling you how things are as someone who has lived in America for many years. You can act like you don't need to chose, but America will not give you that choice.
> 
> Maybe if this is how Pakistan really feels, it should articulate this belief to China and deal with the consequences. It should not string China along thinking that it has an ally in Pakistan.


 Yeah, more and more people in China do not belive in this "iron" things, the Chinese Government shouldn't share core military tecs to anyone in this world. Business is business, nothing more or less.

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## PakShaheen79

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Fundamentally, Pakistan isn't 'aligning' with China.
> 
> We see a lot of statements to that effect, but Pakistan hasn't actually done anything big to further Chinese interests. Ironically, the one 'big' thing Pakistan did for China was at the behest of the US (i.e., helping establish ties between Washington and Beijing).
> 
> Operationally, we could argue that China and Pakistan are aligning more. However, this pairing likely has more to do with India than the U.S.
> 
> Beyond that, I wouldn't bank on Pakistan doing anything to jeopardize US interests wrt to China, or vice-versa. Pakistani leaders now have 2 roads to choose from: recede into an irrelevant party that just talks, or become a regional power with its own interests. I would rather we do the latter, but sadly, our leaders aren't equipped or interested.
> 
> I disagree with retired Lt. Gen Tariq Khan on a lot of things, but of all the senior officials (serving or retired) I've heard, he's articulated the clearest vision for how things should be. @SQ8


Spot on!

Actually it's not Pakistan taking sides this time, it's US/West's policies which are pushing Pakistan in opposite camp ... calling it camp is not appropriate as in 21st century US and China are the biggest trading partners of each other. Neither can survive economically without each other. These economic relations began in the 1970s thanks to Pakistan and 4th industrial revolution. Cold Peace (also called misleadingly Cold War 2.0) is different from Cold War due to many reasons. Here you can on one side at one matter while in opposing camp on another. Iran is a member of 'axis of evil' while in Iraq, Iran helped Americans on many fronts. Similarly, Pakistan being strategic partner with China, is not in enmity of the US of its own, its restive history in near past and few lobbies from within the US painting Pakistan in such a light. This narrative building on Pakistan is something that is causing friction in bilateral relations and now the latest addition to it was "Absolutely Not" by PM Khan. But even that statement was not something extraordinary for a sovereign state, although US is not used to this sort of Pakistan. Pakistan and China are neighbors with completely aligned strategic interests in defense and security, economy, foreign affairs, and many more spheres of statecraft. The kind of investment China has made in Pakistan, the US simply can't. In other areas, US holds main importance in our international affairs like exports, IMF etc.

In this increasingly integrated world, it would be foolish for any state to go for a camp politics and this is what Islamabad is signaling. Growing Sino-Pakistan relations are also propelled by US choice of selecting India as strategic partner in her Pivot to Asia strategy during Obama regime era and under Biden this has found new impetus. In order to balance things, Pakistan and China are forced to join forces. India, in fact, has declared Pakistan and China as joint threat despite the fact that India and China are big trading partners with more than 100 billion USD trade annually. This also indicates the complexity of policy formation on global level and bilateral level with the same country. If India can't go to full-blown war or enmity with China, how can Pakistan even think about the same viz-a-viz the US? Only problem right now is Pakistan is trying to get out of transactional bilateral relations with the Washington as both countries have been operating since 1947. Pakistan demands relations on equal footing but for Washington it's not possible due to multiple reasons.

For Pakistan, the best option is to find common grounds with the US outside the domains of security and finance like climate change, ransomware, regional security forums where the US is also a member, technical education, culture, health, e-governance, infrastructure etc. and get what it requires (if there is any such thing left now) for its defense on non-discounted rates. It will increase the cost but will save the cost which country will have to pay in some other areas while keep pushing in house R&D with help of friendly countries. There is absolutely no wisdom in following zero-sum relations with or against anyone and my assessment this is exactly where Islamabad is heading towards, creating healthy balance of relations with both China and the US. How other party responds is not dependent on us.

J-10C is not the end of Pak-China defense relations. It will grow and the US knows this well but for them bigger problem is how now China is giving access to Pakistani trader in its market. Pakistan's export to China jumped 69% in 2021 alone taking it to 3.25 Billion USD under the FTA whose second phase was signed just in 2019, against 5 Billion USD with the US with whom we have trading ties since 1947.

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## Beast

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Fundamentally, Pakistan isn't 'aligning' with China.
> 
> We see a lot of statements to that effect, but Pakistan hasn't actually done anything big to further Chinese interests. Ironically, the one 'big' thing Pakistan did for China was at the behest of the US (i.e., helping establish ties between Washington and Beijing).
> 
> Operationally, we could argue that China and Pakistan are aligning more. However, this pairing likely has more to do with India than the U.S.
> 
> Beyond that, I wouldn't bank on Pakistan doing anything to jeopardize US interests wrt to China, or vice-versa. Pakistani leaders now have 2 roads to choose from: recede into an irrelevant party that just talks, or become a regional power with its own interests. I would rather we do the latter, but sadly, our leaders aren't equipped or interested.
> 
> I disagree with retired Lt. Gen Tariq Khan on a lot of things, but of all the senior officials (serving or retired) I've heard, he's articulated the clearest vision for how things should be. @SQ8


Another delusion. Pakistan has already official join the Chinese camp. With US courting India, Pakistan can never be in US equation. US see India as an effective counter to China, a bigger economy for US to milk. This is worsen with US leaving Afghanistan, Pakistan has zero benefit for US. We can see US blocking engine deal for T-129K and list Pakistan as supporter of terror group.

Pakistan has know that which we can see the last few years of pivot towards China. If you can prove US see Pakistan more important than India. Then I will eat back my words.

Any Pakistanis still seeing getting US engine or more F-16 is an act of treason. Purposely jeopardize Pakistan national security

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## araz

Deino said:


> Care to explain, why Russia and not much more likely China? Do you really think a Russian engine will find its way into a Turkish-Pakistani joint development when in parallel the Pakistani AF is using Chinese engines in its later fighter acquisition and Turkey as a NATO member in any way won't ever get a Russian engine?


@Deino
My only reservation will be that the Chinese will not want to-support a potential competitor to their market. We hear a lot of good things but in the bargain a lot of wrangling and nit picking is left to the side. It has never been a case of "Pakistan asks and China provides". There are quite a few examples of that from subs to ships.
A

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## Vapnope

Beast said:


> Another delusion. Pakistan has already official join the Chinese camp. With US courting India, Pakistan can never be in US equation. US see India as an effective counter to China, a bigger economy for US to milk. This is worsen with US leaving Afghanistan, Pakistan has zero benefit for US. We can see US blocking engine deal for T-129K and list Pakistan as supporter of terror group.
> 
> Pakistan has know that which we can see the last few years of pivot towards China. If you can prove US see Pakistan more important than India. Then I will eat back my words.
> 
> Any Pakistanis still seeing getting US engine or more F-16 is an act of treason. Purposely jeopardize Pakistan national security


There is no black and white when it comes to relations amongst countries unless you have an active war going on. 
We are not in active war with US hence our relations would continue to varying degree, same is true for China and US relations and China and Indian relations.

We understand that US would not provide "Offensive" weapons to Pakistan and Pakistan would be reliant on China for that matter however we continue to have USAID programs and exports to US because military procurement isn't the only thing that matters for Pakistan.

In essence, Pakistan would continue to balance her relationship with China and US without making an enemy out of any two countries.

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## kursed

Think Pakistan is trying to walk a tight rope here. And this point needs to be understood. It's not rich like China where it can force the EU and US to talk to it, or take it seriously. At the same time, it would not want to be treated as an international pariah state like Iran or North Korea, and get disconnected from international monetary and trade systems. In spite of Pak-China bonhomie, Pakistan's biggest export destinations continue to be in the West. That's where pretty much most of its money coming from, alongside remittances from Pakistanis in the ME.

You can see how complex the situation has become for Pakistan, when in spite of huge pressure to not visit Russia, PM IK still went there, pretty much in the middle of a war - but at the same time, COAS was visiting EU to reassure the bloc.

There've been repercussions of the visit nonetheless, with the National Bank getting hit with a terror financing fine and PTI Gov being declared by Bloomberg as a failure in tackling Covid at home. In the coming months, Khan Gov will be targeted by more of such disinfo campaigns. But yet, economically it makes little sense for Pakistan to cut off or to antagonize the West. Even China would not approve of the same, it does not want another basket case of a country at its hand to help survive. If anything an economically sound, militarily confident but massively friendly Pak works far more in China's favor - all the same.

Now, between all of this, there's a very small role that military to military contacts cultivated over generations play and I doubt Pakistan would lose it just like that. But military has a sizable force now that's originated in China. There's no way, that China does not enjoy a massive voice inside GHQ.

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## Beast

Vapnope said:


> There is no black and white when it comes to relations amongst countries unless you have an active war going on.
> We are not in active war with US hence our relations would continue to varying degree, same is true for China and US relations and China and Indian relations.
> 
> We understand that US would not provide "Offensive" weapons to Pakistan and Pakistan would be reliant on China for that matter however we continue to have USAID programs and exports to US because military procurement isn't the only thing that matters for Pakistan.
> 
> In essence, Pakistan would continue to balance her relationship with China and US without making an enemy out of any two countries.


I am not asking you to be enemy of US but stop any delusion of having hope on anymore US weapon which brings nothing but a hinderance. Asking for US engine for any future project is asking for trouble as suggest by some delusion members.

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## Vapnope

Beast said:


> I am not asking you to be enemy of US but stop any delusion of having hope on anymore US weapon which brings nothing but a hinderance. Asking for US engine for any future project is asking for trouble as suggest by some delusion members.


I am sure our military planners know what they are doing and how they are doing. They have been doing it for 75 years now.

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## 帅的一匹

Vapnope said:


> There is no black and white when it comes to relations amongst countries unless you have an active war going on.
> We are not in active war with US hence our relations would continue to varying degree, same is true for China and US relations and China and Indian relations.
> 
> We understand that US would not provide "Offensive" weapons to Pakistan and Pakistan would be reliant on China for that matter however we continue to have USAID programs and exports to US because military procurement isn't the only thing that matters for Pakistan.
> 
> In essence, Pakistan would continue to balance her relationship with China and US without making an enemy out of any two countries.


Quite reasonable.

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## NA71

Vapnope said:


> I am sure our military planners know what they are doing and how they are doing. They have been doing it for 75 years now.


Good or bad..... Both included.


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## Talon

Cobras over the years..

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## luciferdd

Vapnope said:


> I am sure our military planners know what they are doing and how they are doing. They have been doing it for 75 years now.


You mean T-129?

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## Kaleem.61

@waz I think thread is going somewhere else!


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## Vapnope

luciferdd said:


> You mean T-129?


We faced sanctions to a point when F16s were going to get grounded and then same American gave us C5 and blk 52. So today T129s are scuttled, tomorrow you might see something.

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## Air Wolf

Vapnope said:


> *We faced sanctions* to a point when F16s were going to get grounded and then same American *gave us C5 and blk 52*. So today T129s are scuttled, tomorrow you might see something.



You know very well why these were given. 

Do you really want to keep enduring "carrot and stick" relationship forever? Is this the future you envision for Pakistan or should we grow out of it at some point in time?

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## tphuang

kursed said:


> Think Pakistan is trying to walk a tight rope here. And this point needs to be understood. It's not rich like China where it can force the EU and US to talk to it, or take it seriously. At the same time, it would not want to be treated as an international pariah state like Iran or North Korea, and get disconnected from international monetary and trade systems. In spite of Pak-China bonhomie, Pakistan's biggest export destinations continue to be in the West. That's where pretty much most of its money coming from, alongside remittances from Pakistanis in the ME.
> 
> You can see how complex the situation has become for Pakistan, when in spite of huge pressure to not visit Russia, PM IK still went there, pretty much in the middle of a war - but at the same time, COAS was visiting EU to reassure the bloc.
> 
> There've been repercussions of the visit nonetheless, with the National Bank getting hit with a terror financing fine and PTI Gov being declared by Bloomberg as a failure in tackling Covid at home. In the coming months, Khan Gov will be targeted by more of such disinfo campaigns. But yet, economically it makes little sense for Pakistan to cut off or to antagonize the West. Even China would not approve of the same, it does not want another basket case of a country at its hand to help survive. If anything an economically sound, militarily confident but massively friendly Pak works far more in China's favor - all the same.
> 
> Now, between all of this, there's a very small role that military to military contacts cultivated over generations play and I doubt Pakistan would lose it just like that. But military has a sizable force now that's originated in China. There's no way, that China does not enjoy a massive voice inside GHQ.



There is a huge difference between security and non-security relationship. China's largest partners are America and the EU. There are a lot of desires in business community on both sides to keep the tight relationship going. But when it comes to security and geopolitics, there is a lot of alarm bells going off right now in US military about the growing Chinese power. America regards any country even somewhat close to China as a security concern. Do you have Huawei in your country? If you do, you are on the do not trust list. If Pakistan wants access to advanced US equipments, it would need to completely leave the Chinese sphere. Even with that, it would not have the same access to military export that India would have access to. At this point, US does not view India with anywhere near the same urgency it views China.

At some point, China will probably want to have greater access to military base in Pakistan like America has in its biggest allies (due in large part to Pakistan's location near the gulf). Since 2015, we've left the period of GWOT for America. Now, it's focus is solely on China. Pakistan in its current form is not viewed as an asset but as supporting the top peer competitor. So, just keep these things in mind.

Pakistan does not need to keep its current relationship with China. China will look for new partners if Pakistan is not willing to pick it ahead of America.

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## 帅的一匹

Our Pakistani friends should understand that it’s the USA force you to choose side, not China.

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## araz

Air Wolf said:


> You know very well why these were given.
> 
> Do you really want to keep enduring "carrot and stick" relationship forever? Is this the future you envision for Pakistan or should we grow out of it at some point in time?


That was then. Please remember we did not have much in the way of choice-within our budget. Now we have choices so the same restrictions may/ may not apply( US end user agreements aside).
A


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## Beast

Air Wolf said:


> You know very well why these were given.
> 
> Do you really want to keep enduring "carrot and stick" relationship forever? Is this the future you envision for Pakistan or should we grow out of it at some point in time?


Precisely, today US say ok for parts for you, tomorrow is another story. US will purposely offer you engine for your airplane project and when all is ready for serial production. US will cut you off to sabotage your plan unless u become their slave to obey every of their order. It has proven so many times and we have idiot still stepping into such trap by suggesting getting US parts.

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## PanzerKiel

Let's get ready for a new series of J10 pics from tomorrow onwards....dragons coming home.

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## Vapnope

Air Wolf said:


> You know very well why these were given.
> 
> Do you really want to keep enduring "carrot and stick" relationship forever? Is this the future you envision for Pakistan or should we grow out of it at some point in time?


Nothing is free in this world and anyone who relies on other countries would always be facing some kind of carrot and stick.

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## Aesterix

dy1022 said:


> Yeah, more and more people in China do not belive in this "iron" things, the Chinese Government shouldn't share core military tecs to anyone in this world. Business is business, nothing more or less.


It doesn't matter what ordinary Chinese believes in or doesn't. 
Defence matters are government decision. For them, a powerful Pakistan neutralizes India, which is a threat for them too.

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## Beast

Vapnope said:


> Nothing is free in this world and anyone who relies on other countries would always be facing some kind of carrot and stick.


I think you have mistaken China as some imperialism. Not every country behave like USA and western Europe.

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## serenity

Aesterix said:


> It doesn't matter what ordinary Chinese believes in or doesn't.
> Defence matters are government decision. For them, a powerful Pakistan neutralizes India, which is a threat for them too.



Actually India and China are not really threats to each other unless both sides want the other to be and act accordingly. We have himalayas between us. The only real close contact is Ladakh that is relatively more accessible than the real ranges of Himalayas because in Ladakh armor division and troops can actually still travel although extremely difficult.

Pakistan to China's geostrategic interest is simply in having more neutral to friendly nations we can work with. That is all. More overlapping interest and higher order friendship rather than the USA's "you must do this or else" kind of "friendship". That is all. This of course doesn't always go smoothly but the purpose is not to win this and gain a war buddy. When India and China went to war in 1962, Pakistan did nothing. When Pakistan and India were at war, China did nothing. No remaining side of the three will do much in real war when two are going at it. Pakistan being strong is good for China for another reason. So that the state and system that is friendly with China remains. That India does not take Pakistan hostage like the USA has taken Ukraine hostage. Minus of course the close ties that Ukraine and Russia traditionally have.

So no, Pakistan is not there for China to keep India down or to attack India for China. It is there as a means to reaching the Islamic world and to have geographic access too. It is there to have one more peoples and leadership who will hear our side of the story when every enemy will block their ears and shut their eyes from truth. A strong Pakistan means a Pakistan that is not going to fall to Indian influence and be lost as a friend to China. India one day may turn around and join the league of nations who are realistic, genuine despite western satanic propaganda, and while imperfect and have our heated disagreements, at least work towards our individual goods that do not come at the cost of others and then eventually work towards our common good. Enmity is a doomed philosophy. India right now is totally lost to Hindutva. Oh well. Time changes all things and the greatest evils that exist in the world hopefully will be removed. Almost all we hear and see (at least in English) are from deception. It has become even more clear with recent events.

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## redtom

dy1022 said:


> Yeah, more and more people in China do not belive in this "iron" things, the Chinese Government shouldn't share core military tecs to anyone in this world. Business is business, nothing more or less.


This is because China is more mature towards foreign countries. The Chinese view international relations more in terms of realism than idealism. Therefore, China will also share weapons technology for practical benefit, rather than banning proliferation with pacifist ideology. China, which in the past has been reluctant to take sides in regional conflicts, has clearly taken a position.

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## Aesterix

serenity said:


> Actually India and China are not really threats to each other unless both sides want the other to be and act accordingly. We have himalayas between us. The only real close contact is Ladakh that is relatively more accessible than the real ranges of Himalayas because in Ladakh armor division and troops can actually still travel although extremely difficult.
> 
> Pakistan to China's geostrategic interest is simply in having more neutral to friendly nations we can work with. That is all. More overlapping interest and higher order friendship rather than the USA's "you must do this or else" kind of "friendship". That is all. This of course doesn't always go smoothly but the purpose is not to win this and gain a war buddy. When India and China went to war in 1962, Pakistan did nothing. When Pakistan and India were at war, China did nothing. No remaining side of the three will do much in real war when two are going at it. Pakistan being strong is good for China for another reason. So that the state and system that is friendly with China remains. That India does not take Pakistan hostage like the USA has taken Ukraine hostage. Minus of course the close ties that Ukraine and Russia traditionally have.
> 
> So no, Pakistan is not there for China to keep India down or to attack India for China. It is there as a means to reaching the Islamic world and to have geographic access too. It is there to have one more peoples and leadership who will hear our side of the story when every enemy will block their ears and shut their eyes from truth. A strong Pakistan means a Pakistan that is not going to fall to Indian influence and be lost as a friend to China. India one day may turn around and join the league of nations who are realistic, genuine despite western satanic propaganda, and while imperfect and have our heated disagreements, at least work towards our individual goods that do not come at the cost of others and then eventually work towards our common good. Enmity is a doomed philosophy. India right now is totally lost to Hindutva. Oh well. Time changes all things and the greatest evils that exist in the world hopefully will be removed. Almost all we hear and see (at least in English) are from deception. It has become even more clear with recent events.


India is more of a threat than average Chinese can understand. 
Kashmir is a dispute between India and China too, same as it is between India and Pakistan. 
Plus India is a commercial threat to China, as competitor in trade.
Not recognising a foe as a foe is a big mistake and just considering someone as friend, does not make them one.


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## 帅的一匹

Aesterix said:


> India is more of a threat than average Chinese can understand.
> Kashmir is a dispute between India and China too, same as it is between India and Pakistan.
> Plus India is a commercial threat to China, as competitor in trade.
> Not recognising a foe as a foe is a big mistake and just considering someone as friend, does not make them one.


India is a threat to our national security, it always will be.

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## White privilege

PanzerKiel said:


> ....dragons coming home.


Dracarys....!!!

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## Beast

Aesterix said:


> India is more of a threat than average Chinese can understand.
> Kashmir is a dispute between India and China too, same as it is between India and Pakistan.
> Plus India is a commercial threat to China, as competitor in trade.
> Not recognising a foe as a foe is a big mistake and just considering someone as friend, does not make them one.


When Indian prove they are competent then we will take them more seriously. Under Chinese eye, they are merely some pathetic disoriented clowns.  Look at their military, space project and media...

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## serenity

Aesterix said:


> India is more of a threat than average Chinese can understand.
> Kashmir is a dispute between India and China too, same as it is between India and Pakistan.
> Plus India is a commercial threat to China, as competitor in trade.
> Not recognising a foe as a foe is a big mistake and just considering someone as friend, does not make them one.



Competition is good. We will not shy away from competition. Indian cars compete with Chinese ones. May the better ones win ... same with all other things. You do not truly understand Chinese thinking. I know many think they know all and will say and claim xyz. Chinese saying is weak means loss and to be weak is to deserve loss. To not be able to compete means not good enough.

India is a geopolitical threat to China in the domain of sovereignty in Ladakh (namely Aksai Chin) and a political threat due to India's constant harassment of China in propaganda form. Basically in the form of constant accusation and condemnation without viewing itself in the mirror and considering their accusations or condemnations with reason or understanding even if the material is founded in half truths... which is not all the case when it comes to stuff Indians say about China and things related to China.

We are not USA. We do not think a competitor means we have to do evil things to them to slow them or to stop them or whatever. Despite our tensions with India, China's actions have so far been magnanimous. We haven't banned them from accessing investment or funding from China. We haven't banned them from material and products required for manufacturing certain things using rare earth materials and additives for fuel refinery and so on which we have for some American corporations. Clearly China considers USA as a far greater threat and evil than even RSS Hindutva India.

After all we did have over 4000 years of relative peace and stability despite Himalayan ranges and natural boundaries, we did have trade and access to each other. If India wants to give us commercial competition, I personally welcome it, may it be commercial, peaceful and give consumers and people better returns as commercial competition usually does.

If they insist on war path, that would be their partial doing too. It will be obliged. All China truly wants is to finish our development and once done, then secure our sovereignty and end our civil war. Even CCP's old civil woe foe KMT is more pro reunification with mainland China now to the point Taiwanese had to protest and riot to displace them and vote them out. Younger generations are MTV and hollywood... all about self worship and instagram. Same everywhere but they dislike mainland more than their elders who left mainland and countered CCP because they considered the masses too backwards and themselves as superior Chinese. It's sort of like India with caste but more to do with money than religious beliefs. Now those elderly and previous KMT are mostly pro mainland and already see in the mainland what they wanted China to be back in the 1940s and 1950s to 1970s when they left in waves.

We don't want to force our "rule of law" on others or our will and use the same carrot and stick method as USA. I think China is selfish in the way that we don't care as much about world domination as the Jew dominated western cabal does. We just care about middle kingdom lol. If we can help develop others in win win cases then sure. As long as they aren't a threat to us or plan on becoming one in future. I think tough lessons learned by China in 19th and 20th centuries.

From those lessons, our response isn't to become insecure of power and how things are but to know that weakness = death and to be weak is to deserve pain. It's more self punishment and self hate for losing a step and losing the path. May that mistake never be made again. Whatever the cost. During the rise of China's people after Communist party took the reigns and control, they have done right by us and we do right by ourselves. We witnessed and experienced what it's like to be weak. Maybe not as badly as Indians suffered but lessons learned. The price to pay during that period and till now still is some individual liberties. F*ck individual liberties. When you know what its like to really suffer you laugh at the nonsense the west talks about. Freedom this and democracy that. F*ck those devils and F*ck all those weaklings who cannot see past the obvious.

With India they're path seems to be Hindutva. Rather than bringing the heat to the Euros who raped killed pillaged them, they have set their sights on others who are their former fellow victims and constant current victims. That's weakness like the Hong Kong weaklings who buckle under Anglo glossy advertisements and propaganda. As long as we do right, it is all we can do and hope for. China's way and methods are often fraught with small blunders and mistakes and certainly we are imperfect but there is all the criticism leveled on us for those slight wrongs. That's all the devil does, make you entirely focused on one hand and one thing.

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## 帅的一匹

serenity said:


> Competition is good. We will not shy away from competition. Indian cars compete with Chinese ones. May the better ones win ... same with all other things. You do not truly understand Chinese thinking. I know many think they know all and will say and claim xyz. Chinese saying is weak means loss and to be weak is to deserve loss. To not be able to compete means not good enough.
> 
> India is a geopolitical threat to China in the domain of sovereignty in Ladakh (namely Aksai Chin) and a political threat due to India's constant harassment of China in propaganda form. Basically in the form of constant accusation and condemnation without viewing itself in the mirror and considering their accusations or condemnations with reason or understanding even if the material is founded in half truths... which is not all the case when it comes to stuff Indians say about China and things related to China.
> 
> We are not USA. We do not think a competitor means we have to do evil things to them to slow them or to stop them or whatever. Despite our tensions with India, China's actions have so far been magnanimous. We haven't banned them from accessing investment or funding from China. We haven't banned them from material and products required for manufacturing certain things using rare earth materials and additives for fuel refinery and so on which we have for some American corporations. Clearly China considers USA as a far greater threat and evil than even RSS Hindutva India.
> 
> After all we did have over 4000 years of relative peace and stability despite Himalayan ranges and natural boundaries, we did have trade and access to each other. If India wants to give us commercial competition, I personally welcome it, may it be commercial, peaceful and give consumers and people better returns as commercial competition usually does.
> 
> If they insist on war path, that would be their partial doing too. It will be obliged. All China truly wants is to finish our development and once done, then secure our sovereignty and end our civil war. Even CCP's old civil woe foe KMT is more pro reunification with mainland China now to the point Taiwanese had to protest and riot to displace them and vote them out. Younger generations are MTV and hollywood... all about self worship and instagram. Same everywhere but they dislike mainland more than their elders who left mainland and countered CCP because they considered the masses too backwards and themselves as superior Chinese. It's sort of like India with caste but more to do with money than religious beliefs. Now those elderly and previous KMT are mostly pro mainland and already see in the mainland what they wanted China to be back in the 1940s and 1950s to 1970s when they left in waves.
> 
> We don't want to force our "rule of law" on others or our will and use the same carrot and stick method as USA. I think China is selfish in the way that we don't care as much about world domination as the Jew dominated western cabal does. We just care about middle kingdom lol. If we can help develop others in win win cases then sure. As long as they aren't a threat to us or plan on becoming one in future. I think tough lessons learned by China in 19th and 20th centuries.
> 
> From those lessons, our response isn't to become insecure of power and how things are but to know that weakness = death and to be weak is to deserve pain. It's more self punishment and self hate for losing a step and losing the path. May that mistake never be made again. Whatever the cost. During the rise of China's people after Communist party took the reigns and control, they have done right by us and we do right by ourselves. We witnessed and experienced what it's like to be weak. Maybe not as badly as Indians suffered but lessons learned. The price to pay during that period and till now still is some individual liberties. F*ck individual liberties. When you know what its like to really suffer you laugh at the nonsense the west talks about. Freedom this and democracy that. F*ck those devils and F*ck all those weaklings who cannot see past the obvious.
> 
> With India they're path seems to be Hindutva. Rather than bringing the heat to the Euros who raped killed pillaged them, they have set their sights on others who are their former fellow victims and constant current victims. That's weakness like the Hong Kong weaklings who buckle under Anglo glossy advertisements and propaganda. As long as we do right, it is all we can do and hope for. China's way and methods are often fraught with small blunders and mistakes and certainly we are imperfect but there is all the criticism leveled on us for those slight wrongs. That's all the devil does, make you entirely focused on one hand and one thing.


What about south Tibet? India army still occupy our land, We can’t play nice with India.



serenity said:


> Competition is good. We will not shy away from competition. Indian cars compete with Chinese ones. May the better ones win ... same with all other things. You do not truly understand Chinese thinking. I know many think they know all and will say and claim xyz. Chinese saying is weak means loss and to be weak is to deserve loss. To not be able to compete means not good enough.
> 
> India is a geopolitical threat to China in the domain of sovereignty in Ladakh (namely Aksai Chin) and a political threat due to India's constant harassment of China in propaganda form. Basically in the form of constant accusation and condemnation without viewing itself in the mirror and considering their accusations or condemnations with reason or understanding even if the material is founded in half truths... which is not all the case when it comes to stuff Indians say about China and things related to China.
> 
> We are not USA. We do not think a competitor means we have to do evil things to them to slow them or to stop them or whatever. Despite our tensions with India, China's actions have so far been magnanimous. We haven't banned them from accessing investment or funding from China. We haven't banned them from material and products required for manufacturing certain things using rare earth materials and additives for fuel refinery and so on which we have for some American corporations. Clearly China considers USA as a far greater threat and evil than even RSS Hindutva India.
> 
> After all we did have over 4000 years of relative peace and stability despite Himalayan ranges and natural boundaries, we did have trade and access to each other. If India wants to give us commercial competition, I personally welcome it, may it be commercial, peaceful and give consumers and people better returns as commercial competition usually does.
> 
> If they insist on war path, that would be their partial doing too. It will be obliged. All China truly wants is to finish our development and once done, then secure our sovereignty and end our civil war. Even CCP's old civil woe foe KMT is more pro reunification with mainland China now to the point Taiwanese had to protest and riot to displace them and vote them out. Younger generations are MTV and hollywood... all about self worship and instagram. Same everywhere but they dislike mainland more than their elders who left mainland and countered CCP because they considered the masses too backwards and themselves as superior Chinese. It's sort of like India with caste but more to do with money than religious beliefs. Now those elderly and previous KMT are mostly pro mainland and already see in the mainland what they wanted China to be back in the 1940s and 1950s to 1970s when they left in waves.
> 
> We don't want to force our "rule of law" on others or our will and use the same carrot and stick method as USA. I think China is selfish in the way that we don't care as much about world domination as the Jew dominated western cabal does. We just care about middle kingdom lol. If we can help develop others in win win cases then sure. As long as they aren't a threat to us or plan on becoming one in future. I think tough lessons learned by China in 19th and 20th centuries.
> 
> From those lessons, our response isn't to become insecure of power and how things are but to know that weakness = death and to be weak is to deserve pain. It's more self punishment and self hate for losing a step and losing the path. May that mistake never be made again. Whatever the cost. During the rise of China's people after Communist party took the reigns and control, they have done right by us and we do right by ourselves. We witnessed and experienced what it's like to be weak. Maybe not as badly as Indians suffered but lessons learned. The price to pay during that period and till now still is some individual liberties. F*ck individual liberties. When you know what its like to really suffer you laugh at the nonsense the west talks about. Freedom this and democracy that. F*ck those devils and F*ck all those weaklings who cannot see past the obvious.
> 
> With India they're path seems to be Hindutva. Rather than bringing the heat to the Euros who raped killed pillaged them, they have set their sights on others who are their former fellow victims and constant current victims. That's weakness like the Hong Kong weaklings who buckle under Anglo glossy advertisements and propaganda. As long as we do right, it is all we can do and hope for. China's way and methods are often fraught with small blunders and mistakes and certainly we are imperfect but there is all the criticism leveled on us for those slight wrongs. That's all the devil does, make you entirely focused on one hand and one thing.


What about south Tibet? India army still occupy our land, We can’t play nice with India.


Beast said:


> When Indian prove they are competent then we will take them more seriously. Under Chinese eye, they are merely some pathetic disoriented clowns.  Look at their military, space project and media...


1.2 billion of those disoriented clowns will be a huge threat to China any time, we should respond with iron fist every time they try to provoke.

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## Beast

帅的一匹 said:


> What about south Tibet? India army still occupy our land, We can’t play nice with India.


I think we shall stop here.. Here is not the thread about such things. We shall talk about PAF J-10C or J-10 capabilities.

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## ghazi52

*Aviation Art of Rehan Siraj* .​..

My tribute to No 15 Squadron "Cobras", depicting their new aircraft, J-10C.
While a box formation of old aircrafts of 15 Sqn namely F-86, F-6, F-7P, and Mirage V can be seen in the background.
.

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## Aesterix

Beast said:


> I think we shall stop here.. Here is not the thread about such things. We shall talk about PAF J-10C or J-10 capabilities.


Agreed.........


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## Deino

PanzerKiel said:


> Let's get ready for a new series of J10 pics from tomorrow onwards....dragons coming home.




Yes, as per my information too, they will be - if weather permits (that was the strange addition!) - transferred tomorrow.

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## Air Wolf

Vapnope said:


> Nothing is free in this world and anyone who relies on other countries would always be facing some kind of carrot and stick.



It's quite evident you didn't understood at all. Who said anything about getting things for free? You think Pakistan is getting all this equipment for free from China?

*It's the before/after arm twisting along with receiving the cost which is NOT acceptable. *

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## serenity

帅的一匹 said:


> What about south Tibet? India army still occupy our land, We can’t play nice with India.
> 
> 
> What about south Tibet? India army still occupy our land, We can’t play nice with India.
> 
> 1.2 billion of those disoriented clowns will be a huge threat to China any time, we should respond with iron fist every time they try to provoke.



We still occupy Aksai Chin. Nothing has changed in West Tibet. With South Tibet, we didn't control that land before until after making claim that Dalai Lama birth place whatever reasons. If India ceases claims on Aksai Chin, the Chinese claim in South Tibet may cease too. Consider that we claimed South Tibet land after India claimed Aksai Chin without reason (well with British reasoning) well in response we claimed South Tibet without reason from India.

1.2 billion clowns who may get violent and disrupt things beyond reason is indeed a threat. I give you that. It's up to Chinese leadership to weigh things and consider things. That's their job. May they find the better answers. My opinion is China should simply distance from india wherever possible. Respond only like we have. If they block Malacca Strait, respond harshly etc. Only ensure interests are not attacked. 1,2 billion even if ending up as total clowns, does not mean they can run over to China or do much. If they want war, be prepared and be strong. End them and make sure they know they have no aspirations for real victory as much as they tell themselves and fool themselves into believing so.

Our aim is to be above this. The real thing in the way is the thing in the way! not the things on the side and the guy trying to drag us back. If they grab your shirt, kick them down. China aims to rise above this stuff. Once progress and development completes, all things resolve. It's to look ahead and solve problems head rather than get bogged down and waste energy and resources working out how to keep those far below even further away as I feel is the implied thing here. India is a temporary distraction not the goal of the nation.

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## FuturePAF

An informative video on the systems of the J-10. Does his analysis seem correct? WS-10 has a max thrust of 140 kn.

Would the Arinc 429 bus interface allow the integration of foreign weapons systems?

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## Aesterix

FuturePAF said:


> An informative video on the systems of the J-10. Does his analysis seem correct?


I am a regular viewer of this channel. The guy is legit and knowledgeable. He is a degree holder in the subject.

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## alikazmi007

Do we know if the J-10c is supercruise capable with the WS-10B engine? I haven't seen it anywhere if it is.

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## Aesterix

alikazmi007 said:


> Do we know if the J-10c is supercruise capable with the WS-10B engine? I haven't seen it anywhere if it is.


Don't think TWR is that much?


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## FuturePAF

alikazmi007 said:


> Do we know if the J-10c is supercruise capable with the WS-10B engine? I haven't seen it anywhere if it is.


It probably isn’t designed to do so, but hopefully a modification will be added in future variants, when it is hopefully also equipped with more powerful engines. Redesigning for super cruise may not be considered worth it for Chinese planners.


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## aliyusuf

FuturePAF said:


> An informative video on the systems of the J-10. Does his analysis seem correct? WS-10 has a max thrust of 140 kn.
> 
> Would the Arinc 429 bus interface allow the integration of foreign weapons systems?


This YouTube poster is quoting KLJ-7A AESA with around 1000 elements as the Radar for J-10C. If I am not mistaken this is the Radar for JF-17 Block-3. The AESA radar for J-10C has 1200+ TRM's. 

So much for him being knowledgeable.

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## Aesterix

aliyusuf said:


> This YouTube poster is quoting KLJ-7A AESA with around 1000 elements as the Radar for J-10C. If I am not mistaken this is the Radar for JF-17 Block-3. The AESA radar for J-10C has 1200+ TRM's.
> 
> So much for him being knowledgeable.


He has to be Conservative.


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## siegecrossbow

Aesterix said:


> Don't think TWR is that much?



CATIC revealed that J-10C is capable of "sporadic supercruise" in one of the promotion posters. I think with clean configuration it could perform a pseudo-supercruise much like the Eurofighter and Gripen.

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## FuturePAF

aliyusuf said:


> This YouTube poster is quoting KLJ-7A AESA with around 1000 elements as the Radar for J-10C. If I am not mistaken this is the Radar for JF-17 Block-3. The AESA radar for J-10C has 1200+ TRM's.
> 
> So much for him being knowledgeable.



He’s knowledgeable but that doesn’t mean he can’t get some aspects wrong. Also he limited his analysis to what he could find, and didn’t really speculate to much on the capabilities of the electronics.

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## Aesterix

siegecrossbow said:


> CATIC revealed that J-10C is capable of "sporadic supercruise" in one of the promotion posters. I think with clean configuration it could perform a pseudo-supercruise much like the Eurofighter and Gripen.


Euro fighter taking off without after burner , in super cruise, takes a much longer run on tarmac.
With flame thrower on , it takes a small run, and it's up and away.
So, I am not too sure about the usefulness of super cruise in non stealth fighter jets.
In stealth it makes sense, because the blowtorch gives too much IR signature.

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## aliyusuf

Aesterix said:


> He has to be Conservative.


But that's no excuse to be wrong and incorrect. He quoted a completely wrong radar. He doesn't know that's the radar for the Thunder he is quoting?



FuturePAF said:


> He’s knowledgeable but that doesn’t mean he can’t get some aspects wrong. Also he limited his analysis to what he could find


That doesn't really make him knowledgeable, does it?

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## messiach

Deino said:


> Yes, there is NO doubt! As such I really don't understand, why @messiach is still telling that strange story of an AL-31F ToT! There is aircraft in PAF service using that engine and it makes simply no sense ...


Ok.


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## Deino

messiach said:


> Ok.




Pardon, but ok, is neither a reply nor an explanation! ... so I'm well aware I can only ask or beg for an explanation but at least an "ok" alone wont help to solve that issue and as you surely noted besides some hard-core supporter, there are many other mot reasonable members here who have the same questions. 

So please explain why you think there is a ToT for the AL-31F or FN when the J-10Cs are using the WS-10B? 
Was this a wrong information or has there been recent changes to an original plan to use it or why do you still claim this?

Kind regrads,
Deino

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## sneakerspark

Photography warriors, arm your cameras. You'll need it tomorrow.

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## baqai

sneakerspark said:


> Photography warriors, arm your cameras. You'll need it tomorrow.



kal kia hai bhai? 27th ka din tu ab end par hai


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## Aesterix

Deino said:


> Pardon, but ok, is neither a reply nor an explanation! ... so I'm well aware I can only ask or beg for an explanation but at least an "ok" alone wont help to solve that issue and as you surely noted besides some hard-core supporter, there are many other mot reasonable members here who have the same questions.
> 
> So please explain why you think there is a ToT for the AL-31F or FN when the J-10Cs are using the WS-10B?
> Was this a wrong information or has there been recent changes to an original plan to use it or why do you still claim this?
> 
> Kind regrads,
> Deino


Was it ever confirmed that ws-10 has American F-101 core?


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## Deino

Aesterix said:


> Was it ever confirmed that ws-10 has American F-101 core?




No, confirmed this was surely never (Oh well I already speak like Yoda  ) but it was even more refuted that the WS-10 may be based on the AL-31!

I think no-one denies that there was some sort of technology "transfer" from the AL-31 into the WS-10, especially later variants - but that it was based on it was also never confirmed and in fact even more vehemently denied.

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## messiach

Deino said:


> No, confirmed this was surely never (Oh well I already speak like Yoda  ) but it was even more refuted that the WS-10 may be based on the AL-31!
> 
> I think no-one denies that there was some sort of technology "transfer" from the AL-31 into the WS-10, especially later variants - but that it was based on it was also never confirmed and in fact even more vehemently denied.


WS10 is derived from AL31/31-F1.

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## Aesterix

Deino said:


> No, confirmed this was surely never (Oh well I already speak like Yoda  ) but it was even more refuted that the WS-10 may be based on the AL-31!
> 
> I think no-one denies that there was some sort of technology "transfer" from the AL-31 into the WS-10, especially later variants - but that it was based on it was also never confirmed and in fact even more vehemently denied.


So the TOT bit cannot be totally wrong then


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## Deino

messiach said:


> WS10 is derived from AL31/31-F1.





messiach said:


> WS10 incorp AL31/AL31-F1 core. Besides it carries FADEC parts of which are proprietry with Lylka Saturn.




Since when? This is indeed an often raised claim but it was always vehemently rejected. From all we know, the WS-10's development was initiated in 1986 and CAC got delivery of the first AL-31FN only much later ... so do you want to assume, they took one AL-31F from their Flanker series, they received from 1992 on and redesigned it again? and already in 2002 the first WS-10 _Taihang_ was tested on a J-11WS engine testbed?

IMO highly unlikely...



Aesterix said:


> So the TOT bit cannot be totally wrong then




But why should Pakistan then need ToT from Russia, if only the core and FACEC should be Russian and otherwise everything is Chinese? Do you really think China would sell those J-10Cs with WS-10 when at the same time Pakistan get's ToT for certain parts from Russia? It makes no sense at all.

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## kursed

tphuang said:


> There is a huge difference between security and non-security relationship. China's largest partners are America and the EU. There are a lot of desires in business community on both sides to keep the tight relationship going. But when it comes to security and geopolitics, there is a lot of alarm bells going off right now in US military about the growing Chinese power. America regards any country even somewhat close to China as a security concern. Do you have Huawei in your country? If you do, you are on the do not trust list. If Pakistan wants access to advanced US equipments, it would need to completely leave the Chinese sphere. Even with that, it would not have the same access to military export that India would have access to. At this point, US does not view India with anywhere near the same urgency it views China.
> 
> At some point, China will probably want to have greater access to military base in Pakistan like America has in its biggest allies (due in large part to Pakistan's location near the gulf). Since 2015, we've left the period of GWOT for America. Now, it's focus is solely on China. Pakistan in its current form is not viewed as an asset but as supporting the top peer competitor. So, just keep these things in mind.
> 
> Pakistan does not need to keep its current relationship with China. China will look for new partners if Pakistan is not willing to pick it ahead of America.


As things stand right now, China itself has been providing rare earths to American defense industry; LM included. While American companies continue to fund research within Chinese universities. All of this still goes on and hasn’t been entirely pulled a plug on.

You do need to see that these relationships are opaque and will continue to remain so, for a while. China itself doesn’t want to decouple from the West, at least visibly as much as the US wants it and has made a show for it.

Pakistan is absolutely not taken as a trusted partner, by the US. I’d agree on this. Hence the need for Pak to walk the tight rope, without compromising its west based weapon systems (spares, upgrades et al). It’ll take sometime before the situation changes, it’ll not be an overnight process, just like it’s not for China. Within last two / three years the number of Chinese systems entering service in all three arms has been without a precedent in Pakistani history. This continued trend will help ease off dependence on the west and hence getting done with the whole carrot and stick bit. Chinese leadership isn’t providing access to tech to Pak, for without reason. 

Pakistani security concerns are majorly about India. The more US continues to support it, the less reliant Pakistan eventually want to be on the US ultimately. This is a forgone conclusion.

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## Aesterix

Deino said:


> Since when? This is indeed an often raised claim but it was always vehemently rejected. From all we know, the WS-10's development was initiated in 1986 and CAC got delivery of the first AL-31FN only much later ... so do you want to assume, they took one AL-31F from their Flanker series, they received from 1992 on and redesigned it again? and already in 2002 the first WS-10 _Taihang_ was tested on a J-11WS engine testbed?
> 
> IMO highly unlikely...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But why should Pakistan then need ToT from Russia, if only the core and FACEC should be Russian and otherwise everything is Chinese? Do you really think China would sell those J-10Cs with WS-10 when at the same time Pakistan get's ToT for certain parts from Russia? It makes no sense at all.


I am not knowledgeable enough to say for certain, or even make a guess. 
But the one thing I can say is that in international politics many unusual partnerships happen and make sense.


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## tphuang

messiach said:


> WS10 is derived from AL31/31-F1.


No, you are simply wrong on this. The timeline does not work at all. It's core was designed based on the core of CFM56. All Chinese sources have said this. Keep in mind, the same sources have also said WS-13 was copied from RD-93. There is no reason for them to admit to one and not the other. More importantly, WS-10's recent variants are more advanced than the most recent variants of AL-31. There is no reason for China to copy off Russians.

Now, China did have significant experience with AL-31 due to its humongous MRO facility where all the maintenance and overhauling of Chinese AL-31F/N engines were done. So, it's possible that some of the things they learnt from those work were applied to WS-10 project. We don't know how much that would be.

If we look at how long it took them to be comfortable completely replace AL-31s with WS-10s, China took the long and hard way to learn how to develop a turbofan engine and putting it into production.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

*On JF17 BLK 3 thread I cannot post or reply. My right to post has been taken away.*

Messiach made a comment about TOT on the russian engine---Deino replied out of ignorance---and lack of knowledge---" ask for link posters can only know so much ".

When Messiach answered about the engine---Deino did not have the ability to understand what she was saying---. In the end she had to explain---like a university professor explaining it to school children.

Moderators and Think Tank members on this forum need to have the ability to have basic fundamental knowledge to have enough knowledge of the system in question.

@Deino---I know that SQ8 out of hate for me has a soft spot for you---but your conversation with messiach has proved my point that you are not very knowledgeable about weapons and its machines.

She had made a clear comment and yet you could not understand it---and then you shamelessly begged her to explain it to you in layman's terms.

Don't you feel embarrassed that you do not even have that fundamental knowledge about the system in question.

But then it is wweapons world---is it truth or is it deception---

There are certain other items on the J10C's and JF13 blk 3's and their TOT---the information of which will take a long time to come out and will surprise many into saying ---" eh what"????

Guys wait and see.

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## aliyusuf

messiach said:


> WS10 is derived from AL31/31-F1.


With that sort of logic, you must refer to chocolates as Cocoa, right ??

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## baqai

sheesh take a chill pill @Deino @MastanKhan 

this is an internet forum, if @messiach is making a claim and you don't agree with it than let it be? 

i believe with geo political scenario and national interests ANY and ALL collaborations including TOT is possible, it might sound stupid to you but every nation has it's own interest and long term goals behind such things

Not so long back we had people making fun on the possibilities of VT4, Z10s, HQ4 and even J-10s, lets take J10s for instance i PERSONALLY think that PAF has been going back and forth with Chinese for around 8-10 years, Our feedback meant making changes and we got the aircraft tailor made, China on the other hand gets the advantage of perfecting their platform based upon feedback from our human resources.

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## Bleek

baqai said:


> sheesh take a chill pill @Deino @MastanKhan
> 
> this is an internet forum, if @messiach is making a claim and you don't agree with it than let it be?
> 
> i believe with geo political scenario and national interests ANY and ALL collaborations including TOT is possible, it might sound stupid to you but every nation has it's own interest and long term goals behind such things
> 
> Not so long back we had people making fun on the possibilities of VT4, Z10s, HQ4 and even J-10s, lets take J10s for instance i PERSONALLY think that PAF has been going back and forth with Chinese for around 8-10 years, Our feedback meant making changes and we got the aircraft tailor made, China on the other hand gets the advantage of perfecting their platform based upon feedback from our human resources.


But it's also about quality control...

There needs to be some form of credibility, but apparently she is credible, so maybe?

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## Salza

Oh boy with the Dragons home coming and Mastan Khan Deino love affair, this thread is about to get more interesting

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> *On JF17 BLK 3 thread I cannot post or reply. My right to post has been taken away.*
> 
> Messiach made a comment about TOT on the russian engine---Deino replied out of ignorance---and lack of knowledge---" ask for link posters can only know so much ".
> 
> When Messiach answered about the engine---Deino did not have the ability to understand what she was saying---. In the end she had to explain---like a university professor explaining it to school children.
> 
> Moderators and Think Tank members on this forum need to have the ability to have basic fundamental knowledge to have enough knowledge of the system in question.
> 
> @Deino---I know that SQ8 out of hate for me has a soft spot for you---but your conversation with messiach has proved my point that you are not very knowledgeable about weapons and its machines.
> 
> She had made a clear comment and yet you could not understand it---and then you shamelessly begged her to explain it to you in layman's terms.
> 
> Don't you feel embarrassed that you do not even have that fundamental knowledge about the system in question.
> 
> But then it is wweapons world---is it truth or is it deception---
> 
> There are certain other items on the J10C's and JF13 blk 3's and their TOT---the information of which will take a long time to come out and will surprise many into saying ---" eh what"????
> 
> Guys wait and see.




Oh well! Minor correction to your comment at first: it is not correct that "she had to explain---like a university professor explaining it to school children", in fact she posted very short one-liner sentences that left more questions than gave answers. As such like a student at the university or a kid at school, those who listen carefully, think on their own and add questions in case they still have concerns are the true good pupils, not those who accept all the get and forget or ignore to think! 

Anyway, you know pretty well, why your "*right to post has been taken away*" from the Block 3 thread  and now you are continuing your offence here?!! Get mature man, go out and search for a hobby, a meaning in life since you seem so much frustrated that your rants against me or another member, who has an independent and critical thinking is almost only pitiful and lamentable. I feel sorry for anyone with so much hate and anger and so much lack of understanding since you actually did not even listen to what my point of concern was and therefore this question.

In fact I strongly disagree and contradict what @messiach said and regardless our different opinions, I have all the deepest respect for her since she took her valuable time - as it seems my call on her was unjustified in the form I noted her since as it seems, she simply has not much time to lurk around in forums, sorry for that!  - to try to explain, and that's for what forums are!

@tphuang @siegecrossbow @Beast @lcloo and @IblinI may better explain to you why I disagree in case you don't even want to think about my concerns since I'm a "Kraut", but maybe you listen to them.

Bet an d take care ... life is too short and too beautiful to constantly be desperate and angry. 



baqai said:


> sheesh take a chill pill @Deino @MastanKhan
> 
> this is an internet forum, if @messiach is making a claim and you don't agree with it than let it be?




Sorry to contradict ... but that for what forums are, to ask in case of disagreement for an explanation!

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## baqai

Bleek said:


> But it's also about quality control...
> 
> There needs to be some form of credibility, but apparently she is credible, so maybe?



i agree with QC, even in QC there is a margin of error and also past history, if it was a troll having habit of making tall claims i would understand but @messiach i think is FAR from being a troll and have been a valuable member of this forum, plus she still insist on her claim of TOT 

so we have a choice

1. We think xyz's claim is HAWAI fire and move along
2. We get excited and believe xyz

the route i think we ARE taking here is

3. We think xyz's claims are wrong, lets ridicule xyz on being wrong and ask them to say sorry for being wrong

my only objection with all due respect is why we take such things so seriously, i have seen mature members such as Mastan losing their cool here

bhai kissi ku meri baat buri lagi hu tu i am sorry, i am here to read, share and learn not be part of some soap opera FFS!

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## JohnWick

Deino said:


> Oh well! Minor correction to your comment at first: it is not correct that "she had to explain---like a university professor explaining it to school children", in fact she posted very short one-liner sentences that left more questions than gave answers. As such like a student at the university or a kid at school, those who listen carefully, think on their own and add questions in case they still have concerns are the true good pupils, not those who accept all the get and forget or ignore to think!
> 
> Anyway, you know pretty well, why your "*right to post has been taken away*" from the Block 3 thread  and now you are continuing your offence here?!! Get mature man, go out and search for a hobby, a meaning in life since you seem so much frustrated that your rants against me or another member, who has an independent and critical thinking is almost only pitiful and lamentable. I feel sorry for anyone with so much hate and anger and so much lack of understanding since you actually did not even listen to what my point of concern was and therefore this question.
> 
> In fact I strongly disagree and contradict what @messiach said and regardless our different opinions, I have all the deepest respect for her since she took her valuable time - as it seems my call on her was unjustified in the form I noted her since as it seems, she simply has not much time to lurk around in forums, sorry for that!  - to try to explain, and that's for what forums are!
> 
> @tphuang @siegecrossbow @Beast @lcloo and @IblinI may better explain to you why I disagree in case you don't even want to think about my concerns since I'm a "Kraut", but maybe you listen to them.
> 
> Bet an d take care ... life is too short and too beautiful to constantly be desperate and angry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to contradict ... but that for what forums are, to ask in case of disagreement for an explanation!


Sir your concerns are right
WS-10 is derived from CFM-56 which is written everywhere in internet and I think we can compare it with AL-31 like comparing GE with pratt and Whitney for F-16 @messiach didn't explain anything, pardon me but I thought she was just trying to put a blanket over what she said about TOT of AL-31

As far as @MastanKhan is concern, You should only read his replies just for amusement I mean He was pretending like As if he the CEO of Lookheed Martin and pretending @Deino was asking Chairman of Lookheed Martin @messiach to explain something out of ordinary.
Such a retard one !

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## RAMPAGE

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> *On JF17 BLK 3 thread I cannot post or reply. My right to post has been taken away.*
> 
> Messiach made a comment about TOT on the russian engine---Deino replied out of ignorance---and lack of knowledge---" ask for link posters can only know so much ".
> 
> When Messiach answered about the engine---Deino did not have the ability to understand what she was saying---. In the end she had to explain---like a university professor explaining it to school children.
> 
> Moderators and Think Tank members on this forum need to have the ability to have basic fundamental knowledge to have enough knowledge of the system in question.
> 
> @Deino---I know that SQ8 out of hate for me has a soft spot for you---but your conversation with messiach has proved my point that you are not very knowledgeable about weapons and its machines.
> 
> She had made a clear comment and yet you could not understand it---and then you shamelessly begged her to explain it to you in layman's terms.
> 
> Don't you feel embarrassed that you do not even have that fundamental knowledge about the system in question.
> 
> But then it is wweapons world---is it truth or is it deception---
> 
> There are certain other items on the J10C's and JF13 blk 3's and their TOT---the information of which will take a long time to come out and will surprise many into saying ---" eh what"????
> 
> Guys wait and see.


You are consistently rude, patronising, and ungracious. I hate when people's expression is censored by authority. In your case, however, I wish the moderators would ban you temporarily.

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## MastanKhan

….

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## MastanKhan

RAMPAGE said:


> The world is largely what you make of it. I bet you have not made yours a very pleasant place. You must have a horrible relationship with your children - if you have any. You are a pitiful man.



Hi,

I also had a terrible relationship with my father as well and my teachers as well.

In 1974 in my college physics class while studying aerodynamic---I shared with the class that the Boeing 707 uses refined kerosene fuel.

It was at the Degree college Asghar Mall Rd in Pindi and the Physics Professor was Prof Khurhsid---if older asghar mall college students may remember him---.

That A'hole insukted and humikiated me and made fun of me.

Never asking where and how I got the information---. If he would have asked I would have told him about my father's friend the PIA boeing 707 engineer that I met a couple of weeks ago at Karachi airport---.

But the thing is---that it was not my fault---it was my father's fault---.

He started buying books for me when I was born---. Books or war and history and literature---at 10 years of age I had read war and peace---Gone with the wind---the readers digest 10 volume books on world war 2---and myriads of other books and that is in the mid 60---at 7 years of age I started---and the books were in english and not children books.

And you are right again---that is why I told my wife to keep my kids illiterate and don't take them to the library---and I say the same to you and others reading thias post---.

Don't teach your kids more than what their teachers are exposed to---their teachers will insult them and humiliate them---their elders will insult them and hate them---their friends will hate them---.

And for what---I am only saying what I know---and just because you don't know it---please don't blame me for it.

Now if I was proven wrong and if I had stated lies on this forum---I can understand your comments very well---but most of what I have written over the years has come true---so what difference a little drubbing makes---?

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## ghazi52

Very soon the set will be completed.............

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## Engima Chaudhry

aliyusuf said:


> This YouTube poster is quoting KLJ-7A AESA with around 1000 elements as the Radar for J-10C. If I am not mistaken this is the Radar for JF-17 Block-3. The AESA radar for J-10C has 1200+ TRM's.
> 
> So much for him being knowledgeable.


I agree. Klj 7 has , if I remember correctly, around 800 t/r modules. While j 10 has 1000 or 1200 t/r modules. 
Obviously , an optimism bias , in favour of Western tech is deeply ingrained in the analysis.

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## siegecrossbow

I hope China has exported the flight simulation system to Pakistan as well. Could get pilots with basic training very rapidly adjusted to flying the aircraft.

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## The Eagle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> *On JF17 BLK 3 thread I cannot post or reply. My right to post has been taken away.*
> 
> Messiach made a comment about TOT on the russian engine---Deino replied out of ignorance---and lack of knowledge---" ask for link posters can only know so much ".
> 
> When Messiach answered about the engine---Deino did not have the ability to understand what she was saying---. In the end she had to explain---like a university professor explaining it to school children.
> 
> Moderators and Think Tank members on this forum need to have the ability to have basic fundamental knowledge to have enough knowledge of the system in question.
> 
> @Deino---I know that SQ8 out of hate for me has a soft spot for you---but your conversation with messiach has proved my point that you are not very knowledgeable about weapons and its machines.
> 
> She had made a clear comment and yet you could not understand it---and then you shamelessly begged her to explain it to you in layman's terms.
> 
> Don't you feel embarrassed that you do not even have that fundamental knowledge about the system in question.
> 
> But then it is wweapons world---is it truth or is it deception---
> 
> There are certain other items on the J10C's and JF13 blk 3's and their TOT---the information of which will take a long time to come out and will surprise many into saying ---" eh what"????
> 
> Guys wait and see.



Let's agree to disagree with respect. Let's argue the matter with knowledge and intelligence instead of naming or shaming. If @Deino is arguing with @messiach then let them reach to conclusion or disagree respectfully but, nothing warrants personal attacks. All you keep saying about fundamental knowledge but you ignore the very basic and fundamental of respectful argument, quality based discussion and information for readers.

It's been really a while that you keep attacking personally to whom you don't agree or whosoever don't agree with you. Ignore and move on. I don't think that I need to tell you anything but, that's just my last advice for you. Either you keep it or throw it, but at-least don't destroy tye discussion and respectful arguments. Do I need to Attack you for this? I don't think so.

If anyone is not agreeing with face value, with something being said it doesn't mean that the source has to get personal and insult anyone. Let them argue or disengage or you can add further knowledge similarly the way what @messiach says or keep adding to the topic at hand. I don't see her insulting @Deino but your judgmental behaviour is totally unwarranted please.

Kindest regards,

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## GriffinsRule

ghazi52 said:


> Very soon the set will be completed.............
> 
> View attachment 819360


Oldie but goodie


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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> In fact I strongly disagree and contradict what @messiach said and regardless our different opinions, I have all the deepest respect for her since she took her valuable time - as it seems my call on her was unjustified in the form I noted her since as it seems, she simply has not much time to lurk around in forums, sorry for that!  - to try to explain, and that's for what forums are!



Sometimes, things are said as per told basis and need not to be explained at all. It's her opinion and post so let's call it as it is. Like, whatever she said was supposedly to be told like that only... nothing more or nothing less. Given the level of secrecy and all, keep 8jind, you will have to wait either for years if not months to know it all. May be sh don't want to explain further or don't seem it fit. However, she has the liberty whether to reply or not. Nobody is complacent or bound to explain everything. We have the freedom to agree or disagree as well. Whatever comes the argument, we are not here to challenge, belittling anyone or keep insisting about something else which is not explained in details. Time for us to move forward.

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## Bleek

Is J-10 landing in Pakistan today?


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## Zarvan

Should I get ready for a dance party today. I mean it's Monday morning

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## MastanKhan

Bleek said:


> Is J-10 landing in Pakistan today?



Hi,

Thank you. That is what it was all about.

A snippet of information comes out---and the wheels start turning---and then we start searching for information to compliment the comment.

Now---please kindly Un-Ban me from that thread.

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## MultaniGuy

It will be March in a couple of days. I am looking forward to seeing these J-10Cs in Pakistan military parade.

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## Dreamer.

RAMPAGE said:


> You are consistently rude, patronising, and ungracious. I hate when people's expression is censored by authority. In your case, however, I wish the moderators would ban you temporarily.





RAMPAGE said:


> The world is largely what you make of it. I bet you have not made yours a very pleasant place. *You must have a horrible relationship with your children - if you have any.* You are a pitiful man.


That is a really objectionable & uncalled for comment on your part. 
I'm not a fan of @MastanKhan in general BUT it would seem that while lecturing others about being 'rude' and 'patronising', you chose to be the same. Sad.

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## Taimoor Khan

Bleek said:


> Is J-10 landing in Pakistan today?



All set, weather permitting. Weather en route is predicted to be bad for next 5 days. But you never know with these predictions. Finger crossed.

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## syed_yusuf

Taimoor Khan said:


> All set, weather permitting. Weather en route is predicted to be bad for next 5 days. But you never know with these predictions. Finger crossed.


How many r coming

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## RAMPAGE

Dreamer. said:


> That is a really objectionable & uncalled for comment on your part.
> I'm not a fan of @MastanKhan in general BUT it would seem that while lecturing others about being 'rude' and 'patronising', you chose to be the same. Sad.


Perhaps you are right. I hoped that it would be an eye-opener for the poster. I still hope that it is.

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## Clutch

Part 1




.
.
Part 2

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## Aesterix

siegecrossbow said:


> I hope China has exported the flight simulation system to Pakistan as well. Could get pilots with basic training very rapidly adjusted to flying the aircraft.


If not I have flight sim on my PC and DCS World. PAF is welcome to borrow.

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## jaybird

syed_yusuf said:


> How many r coming



Confidential! You don't want Indians to know the exact numbers of J-10 coming without any work done.


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## The Terminator

Deino said:


> Care to explain, why Russia and not much more likely China? Do you really think a Russian engine will find its way into a Turkish-Pakistani joint development when in parallel the Pakistani AF is using Chinese engines in its later fighter acquisition and Turkey as a NATO member in any way won't ever get a Russian engine?


Is there any possibility that Turkey-China cooperating each other in defense sector in near future? Pakistan has great relationship with both of them. So if Pakistan opts for Turkish 5th Gen JV project, would China be willing to supply it's Engines for that platform?? As there have been stress between Turkey and China regarding Oyigur(Turkish descendants) population.

Turkey is currently working closely with the Ukraine to develop engines for its vital assets like Altay MBT or perhaps engines of even next iteration of Atak helicopters and Fighter jets too!


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## Ghessan

The Eagle said:


> Sometimes, things are said as per told basis and need not to be explained at all. It's her opinion and post so let's call it as it is. Like, whatever she said was supposedly to be told like that only... nothing more or nothing less. Given the level of secrecy and all, keep 8jind, you will have to wait either for years if not months to know it all. May be sh don't want to explain further or don't seem it fit. However, she has the liberty whether to reply or not. Nobody is complacent or bound to explain everything. We have the freedom to agree or disagree as well. Whatever comes the argument, we are not here to challenge, belittling anyone or keep insisting about something else which is not explained in details. Time for us to move forward.



i really thank you for this post, it was needed. otherwise things were getting to look ugly.



Dreamer. said:


> That is a really objectionable & uncalled for comment on your part.
> I'm not a fan of @MastanKhan in general BUT it would seem that while lecturing others about being 'rude' and 'patronising', you chose to be the same. Sad.



not everything suits everyone, it need a personality.

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## The Terminator

kursed said:


> Think Pakistan is trying to walk a tight rope here. And this point needs to be understood. It's not rich like China where it can force the EU and US to talk to it, or take it seriously. At the same time, it would not want to be treated as an international pariah state like Iran or North Korea, and get disconnected from international monetary and trade systems. In spite of Pak-China bonhomie, Pakistan's biggest export destinations continue to be in the West. That's where pretty much most of its money coming from, alongside remittances from Pakistanis in the ME.
> 
> You can see how complex the situation has become for Pakistan, when in spite of huge pressure to not visit Russia, PM IK still went there, pretty much in the middle of a war - but at the same time, COAS was visiting EU to reassure the bloc.
> 
> There've been repercussions of the visit nonetheless, with the National Bank getting hit with a terror financing fine and PTI Gov being declared by Bloomberg as a failure in tackling Covid at home. In the coming months, Khan Gov will be targeted by more of such disinfo campaigns. But yet, economically it makes little sense for Pakistan to cut off or to antagonize the West. Even China would not approve of the same, it does not want another basket case of a country at its hand to help survive. If anything an economically sound, militarily confident but massively friendly Pak works far more in China's favor - all the same.
> 
> Now, between all of this, there's a very small role that military to military contacts cultivated over generations play and I doubt Pakistan would lose it just like that. But military has a sizable force now that's originated in China. There's no way, that China does not enjoy a massive voice inside GHQ.


Why we have to be enemy of a power to be friends with other? Can't we have diplomatic and trade relationships like many other normal state? When military defines the foreign policy they look it through military lens, that's our arms supplier, that's our enemy, that's neutral and that's an ally and relationship with other states practically end there. 

If you wanna know about the Pakistan's foreign relations, just follow the military uniform. Every friendly country would be the one who supplies us weapons, does military exercises with us or we have military trainers deployed in other countries. And practically our foreign relations end there. That's it. We are aliens to most of the African continent and South East Asia, couldn't access Central Asia, and the list goes on. I would suggest not to underestimate the potential of the African economies.


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## The Terminator

serenity said:


> Actually India and China are not really threats to each other unless both sides want the other to be and act accordingly. We have himalayas between us. The only real close contact is Ladakh that is relatively more accessible than the real ranges of Himalayas because in Ladakh armor division and troops can actually still travel although extremely difficult.
> 
> Pakistan to China's geostrategic interest is simply in having more neutral to friendly nations we can work with. That is all. More overlapping interest and higher order friendship rather than the USA's "you must do this or else" kind of "friendship". That is all. This of course doesn't always go smoothly but the purpose is not to win this and gain a war buddy. When India and China went to war in 1962, Pakistan did nothing. When Pakistan and India were at war, China did nothing. No remaining side of the three will do much in real war when two are going at it. Pakistan being strong is good for China for another reason. So that the state and system that is friendly with China remains. That India does not take Pakistan hostage like the USA has taken Ukraine hostage. Minus of course the close ties that Ukraine and Russia traditionally have.
> 
> So no, Pakistan is not there for China to keep India down or to attack India for China. It is there as a means to reaching the Islamic world and to have geographic access too. It is there to have one more peoples and leadership who will hear our side of the story when every enemy will block their ears and shut their eyes from truth. A strong Pakistan means a Pakistan that is not going to fall to Indian influence and be lost as a friend to China. India one day may turn around and join the league of nations who are realistic, genuine despite western satanic propaganda, and while imperfect and have our heated disagreements, at least work towards our individual goods that do not come at the cost of others and then eventually work towards our common good. Enmity is a doomed philosophy. India right now is totally lost to Hindutva. Oh well. Time changes all things and the greatest evils that exist in the world hopefully will be removed. Almost all we hear and see (at least in English) are from deception. It has become even more clear with recent events.


Agreed to the most of the part. But India taking Pakistan hostage as US did to Ukraine! Not even in hell. That's the core purpose of carving out Pakistan on the world map to be independent of India and we have held on our own regardless of anyone's help. 

China has sh!t load of enemies/adversaries and less friends especially in the neighborhood. US has lead a whole block to surround or even try to suffocate China if it doesn't act as per US wishes. So China needs more and more friends, friends with some influence are even better. An alternative safe route to the west if Indo-Pacific goes wild. China's plate was already full to deal with before Quad. Now it's essential for China to strengthen Pakistan militarily so it would keep India engaged and China would better concentrate on the south china sea or the Pacific rather than its own backyard.

In current situation China needs Pakistan more than the other way around. We can today easily get back into the western camp, get investments/loans and buy weapons from there to survive with obvious western style hiccups. But for China as our trusted neighbor and friend, Pakistan has taken the risk to defy the US/NATO allies by not going hostile to China. Today Pakistan can get similar Package if not more from the west to disrupt CPEC and blockade China. They are continuously trying to appease Pakistan to cut off the CPEC. But couldn't succeed till now

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## untitled

The Terminator said:


> View attachment 819445
> How would you assess that? How realistic is it? It doesn't look that much good for PAF! 😳 In radar ranges. In short anyone here who can analyze this and debunk this Indian theory. They have given radar and missile ranges in this infographic.


Was posted before and got deleted


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## Aesterix

The Terminator said:


> View attachment 819445
> How would you assess that? How realistic is it? It doesn't look that much good for PAF! 😳 In radar ranges. In short anyone here who can analyze this and debunk this Indian theory. They have given radar and missile ranges in this infographic.


PAF relies heavily on networking, not on individual radars.


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## The Terminator

Aesterix said:


> PAF relies heavily on networking, not on individual radars.


That's what I already understand. No weapon works in isolation. EW, AWE&C, SAMs, Fighters all work in synergy as a unified system.

Only PAF knows better as they have access to almost all of those platforms except a few. They have hands on experience and simulated combats in military exercises. But still they wouldn't be sure enough how they would fare against each other in real combat under intense EW, Radar, SAM and AEW&C coverage for sure. But PAF would certainly have the closest guess of what's expected.


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## Aesterix

The Terminator said:


> That's what I already understand. No weapon works in isolation. EW, AWE&C, SAMs, Fighters all work in synergy as a unified system.
> 
> Only PAF knows better as they have access to almost all of those platforms except a few. They have hands on experience and simulated combats in military exercises. But still they wouldn't be sure enough how they would fare against each other in real combat under intense EW, Radar, SAM and AEW&C coverage for sure. But PAF would certainly have the closest guess of what's expected.


The "Beast of the east" SU-30MKI was dispatched and others ran away with their tales between their legs.
There's a lot more to air combat than just radar range.
Higher radar range also means the enemy can pickup your radar signals and know your location and send an anti radiation missile your way.

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## ziaulislam

Aesterix said:


> Euro fighter taking off without after burner , in super cruise, takes a much longer run on tarmac.
> With flame thrower on , it takes a small run, and it's up and away.
> So, I am not too sure about the usefulness of super cruise in non stealth fighter jets.
> In stealth it makes sense, because the blowtorch gives too much IR signature.


Fuel effiency
& endurance mission time



The Terminator said:


> That's what I already understand. No weapon works in isolation. EW, AWE&C, SAMs, Fighters all work in synergy as a unified system.
> 
> Only PAF knows better as they have access to almost all of those platforms except a few. They have hands on experience and simulated combats in military exercises. But still they wouldn't be sure enough how they would fare against each other in real combat under intense EW, Radar, SAM and AEW&C coverage for sure. But PAF would certainly have the closest guess of what's expected.


Cant PAF pitch f16s against j10 in real time testing to see whats better ?



Aesterix said:


> The "Beast of the east" SU-30MKI was dispatched and others ran away with their tales between their legs.
> There's a lot more to air combat than just radar range.
> Higher radar range also means the enemy can pickup your radar signals and know your location and send an anti radiation missile your way.


Su30 was the raptor of the east..it was thought to eat even rafale and some said even the f35 and was very close to f22
But some how it has now retired after feb 27

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## Riz

Zarvan said:


> Should I get ready for a dance party today. I mean it's Monday morning


Haram haraam haraam Aztagfrullah

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## Tair-Lahoti

Deino said:


> Oh well! Minor correction to your comment at first: it is not correct that "she had to explain---like a university professor explaining it to school children", in fact she posted very short one-liner sentences that left more questions than gave answers. As such like a student at the university or a kid at school, those who listen carefully, think on their own and add questions in case they still have concerns are the true good pupils, not those who accept all the get and forget or ignore to think!
> 
> Anyway, you know pretty well, why your "*right to post has been taken away*" from the Block 3 thread  and now you are continuing your offence here?!! Get mature man, go out and search for a hobby, a meaning in life since you seem so much frustrated that your rants against me or another member, who has an independent and critical thinking is almost only pitiful and lamentable. I feel sorry for anyone with so much hate and anger and so much lack of understanding since you actually did not even listen to what my point of concern was and therefore this question.
> 
> In fact I strongly disagree and contradict what @messiach said and regardless our different opinions, I have all the deepest respect for her since she took her valuable time - as it seems my call on her was unjustified in the form I noted her since as it seems, she simply has not much time to lurk around in forums, sorry for that!  - to try to explain, and that's for what forums are!
> 
> @tphuang @siegecrossbow @Beast @lcloo and @IblinI may better explain to you why I disagree in case you don't even want to think about my concerns since I'm a "Kraut", but maybe you listen to them.
> 
> Bet an d take care ... life is too short and too beautiful to constantly be desperate and angry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to contradict ... but that for what forums are, to ask in case of disagreement for an explanation!


Why questioning someone with logic is such a big offense?


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## DrWatson775

The Terminator said:


> View attachment 819445
> How would you assess that? How realistic is it? It doesn't look that much good for PAF! 😳 In radar ranges. In short anyone here who can analyze this and debunk this Indian theory. They have given radar and missile ranges in this infographic.


Not sure about BARS but RBE-2AA has a range of 140km against fighter sized targets per open source info, which again may be wrong. Of course it may be able to detect a Boeing 747 at 190 km if that's what they are aiming for.

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## The Terminator

DrWatson775 said:


> Not sure about BARS but RBE-2AA has a range of 140km against fighter sized targets per open source info, which again may be wrong. Of course it may be able to detect a Boeing 747 at 190 km if that's what they are aiming for.


Exactly I read it's range to be 130KM. Don't know from where they get the ranges data!


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## HRK

The Terminator said:


> View attachment 819445
> How would you assess that? How realistic is it? It doesn't look that much good for PAF! 😳 In radar ranges. In short anyone here who can analyze this and debunk this Indian theory. They have given radar and missile ranges in this infographic.


this is from Indian source with obvious biases without any supporting evidences This was posted earlier as well.

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## The Terminator

ziaulislam said:


> Cant PAF pitch f16s against j10 in real time testing to see whats better ?


PAF doesn't have to fight against F-16 or J-10 . I didn't understand the logic!


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## Clutch



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## Aesterix

Clutch said:


> View attachment 819469


Posted a bazillion times.
Could have at least photoshopped a new serial number to make us happy?

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## Clutch

Aesterix said:


> Posted a bazillion times.
> Could have at least photoshopped a new serial number to make us happy?



Oops sorry, I didn't know it had been posted. Just was sharing... Not making any $$ off of it...

Hard to keep up with a thread with over 280 pages... With what been posted and what has not... Jyi

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## RAMPAGE

Aesterix said:


> PAF relies heavily on networking, not on individual radars.


So does the IAF. Comparisons of potential competitor weapons in isolation have their use and should not be avoided by appeal to the synced nature of modern warfare. It is highly likely that these platforms will engage the enemy while disconnected from their C4ISR - as Abhinandan was obliged to.

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## Vapnope

where are j10 pics?

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## Aesterix

RAMPAGE said:


> So does the IAF. Comparisons of potential competitor weapons in isolation have their use and should not be avoided by appeal to the synced nature of modern warfare. It is highly likely that these platforms will engage the enemy while disconnected from their C4ISR - as Abhinandan was obliged to.


I wasn't on about capability, but doctrine and war strategy. 
PAF war plans and strategies are heavily netcentric.
In a left alone scenario, it depends on pilot skills and courage.


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## RAMPAGE

Aesterix said:


> I wasn't on about capability, but doctrine and war strategy.
> PAF war plans and strategies are heavily netcentric.
> In a left alone scenario, it depends on pilot skills and courage.





Joe Shearer said:


> The trouble is that most of you come into these discussions half-arsed, without doing your homework, and then try to defend your positions to the last man, last bullet. Relax.



Read the above.

Joe, I am tempted to put up this as my signature.

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## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I also had a terrible relationship with my father as well and my teachers as well.
> 
> In 1974 in my college physics class while studying aerodynamic---I shared with the class that the Boeing 707 uses refined kerosene fuel.
> 
> It was at the Degree college Asghar Mall Rd in Pindi and the Physics Professor was Prof Khurhsid---if older asghar mall college students may remember him---.
> 
> That A'hole insukted and humikiated me and made fun of me.
> 
> Never asking where and how I got the information---. If he would have asked I would have told him about my father's friend the PIA boeing 707 engineer that I met a couple of weeks ago at Karachi airport---.
> 
> But the thing is---that it was not my fault---it was my father's fault---.
> 
> He started buying books for me when I was born---. Books or war and history and literature---at 10 years of age I had read war and peace---Gone with the wind---the readers digest 10 volume books on world war 2---and myriads of other books and that is in the mid 60---at 7 years of age I started---and the books were in english and not children books.
> 
> And you are right again---that is why I told my wife to keep my kids illiterate and don't take them to the library---and I say the same to you and others reading thias post---.
> 
> Don't teach your kids more than what their teachers are exposed to---their teachers will insult them and humiliate them---their elders will insult them and hate them---their friends will hate them---.
> 
> And for what---I am only saying what I know---and just because you don't know it---please don't blame me for it.
> 
> Now if I was proven wrong and if I had stated lies on this forum---I can understand your comments very well---but most of what I have written over the years has come true---so what difference a little drubbing makes---?


MK, I had a somewhat similar trajectory & experiences. I fully empathize with you. I also told my wife to keep my children at a distance or else they would turn out to be somewhat like me. We are kindred spirits in a way. I disliked most of my teachers because they were concerned with covering syllabus & not developing kids' minds or entertaining questions. I have so many stories to relate on this subject.

I feel for you & I can literally experience some of the pain that you felt & continue to feel. I wish things had been a little different for both of us.

I am sorry for the OT dear forum-members. But it is important to show empathy & solidarity with a fellow-member. He is one of us.

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## Joe Shearer

RAMPAGE said:


> Read the above.
> 
> Joe, I am tempted to put up this as my signature.




This has been an unexpected morning, first, a glorious compliment from the dean of the forum, then, heart-breaking indifference to kids stranded in danger by known friends and people I earnestly and sincerely believe in.

You put the smile back on my face. Thanks.

🙏

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## Joe Shearer

RAMPAGE said:


> So does the IAF. Comparisons of potential competitor weapons in isolation have their use and should not be avoided by appeal to the synced nature of modern warfare. It is highly likely that these platforms will engage the enemy while disconnected from their C4ISR - as Abhinandan was obliged to.


I understand that PAF jamming suppressed the ground controller's signals and frantic messages to Abhinandan; she came on TV afterwards, and talked about the frustration of seeing 'her' a/c fly into certain danger (the jamming apparently didn't stop her from following the IAF pilots on radar).

The MiG 21 is 1955 technology; even with the Bison variant, it isn't easy to get it into networked behaviour, and its pilots have an edge to them, as is natural. 

Apparently the combat air patrol, consisting of less than half a dozen planes aloft, were completely overwhelmed by the mass and direction of the PAF attack, and, knowing that their planes were within missile range and unable to hit back due to that same discrepancy in ranges, kept their distance. It is not at all clear to me why, under those circumstances, that flight of MiGs was scrambled. 

All in all, there was superior battle management by the PAF.

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## tman786

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497080027103768576

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## PanzerKiel

Inclement weather..... Next 3 to 4 days..... Delays.

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## TopGun786

No. 22-103?

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## Deino

I just got the first three very clear images, but still from CAC

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## WinterFangs



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## TopGun786

WinterFangs said:


> View attachment 819504
> View attachment 819505


With external fuel tanks... I believe they must be preparing to fly to Pakistan today?

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## Windjammer

PanzerKiel said:


> Inclement weather..... Next 3 to 4 days..... Delays.


Notice the Three drop tanks this time.

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## WinterFangs

TopGun786 said:


> With external fuel tanks... I believe they must be preparing to fly to Pakistan today?


They are preparing to fly to Pakistan, on what day I don’t know. It’s as everyone else said, when the weather is suitable.

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## untitled

PanzerKiel said:


> Inclement weather..... Next 3 to 4 days..... Delays.


Is it not possible to fly over the clouds?

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## Salza

I checked Gilglit Baltistan weather forcast for next 5 days. Its all cloudy with rain/snow predicted. Perhaps on Wednesday there will be some sunlight but mostly cloudy.

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## Sidacca

My flight to gilgit getting cancelled for last two days, nangaparbat needs some time

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## sneakerspark

Already been mentioned above but delays due to bad weather. Warriors put your cameras down for now. 🥲

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## Deino

sneakerspark said:


> Already been mentioned above but delays due to bad weather. Warriors put your cameras down for now. 🥲




So, there is bad weather in Pakistan? At Chengdu it seems to be quite ok?


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## Iceman2

PanzerKiel said:


> Inclement weather..... Next 3 to 4 days..... Delays.


Ignore my lack of knowledge but aren't these all weather jets sounds stupid if a war breaks out and we say we can't fly because of weather

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## siegecrossbow

The Terminator said:


> PAF doesn't have to fight against F-16 or J-10 . I didn't understand the logic!



Mock combat.


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## Deino

Iceman2 said:


> Ignore my lack of knowledge but aren't these all weather jets sounds stupid if a war breaks out and we say we can't fly because of weather




Maybe the only reason why they wait is that bad weather would ruin the welcome party!?

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Maybe the only reason why they wait is that bad weather would ruin the welcome party!?



If you bought a brand new BMW would you drive it through a muddy country road to get home? The car could definitely handle it, but would you want to?

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## sneakerspark

Deino said:


> So, there is bad weather in Pakistan? At Chengdu it seems to be quite ok?


Weather is acceptable where i live but then I don't have access to met data like forces have. Also weather here changes quite rapidly during this time of the year.


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## Oruc

And this is one of the most dangerous air routes in the world. Why take chances when there is no need.

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## sneakerspark

And since its a long haul flight of brand new aircrafts, one would only go with the flight once all items are ticked on the checklist. 

I wonder if they would perform A2A refuel along the way. Or is it even needed to refuel mid way?


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## Jinn Baba

Iceman2 said:


> Ignore my lack of knowledge but aren't these all weather jets sounds stupid if a war breaks out and we say we can't fly because of weather



War is different. In war you even send soldiers into situations knowing they will die. But in peacetime, safety comes first.

The weather may make landing difficult (new jets for new pilots), and in the event something goes wrong during the journey - bad weather makes search and rescue almost impossible. There is no rush to receive these jets, so safety must come first.

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## Windjammer

A few years back, a Battle of Britain flypast consisting of Second World War fighters and bombers and Eurofighter Typhoons was planned......on the actual day, there was a slight drizzle on......ironically, the WW 2 aircraft did the flypast but the Typhoon failed to appear.
No explanation was given except the rumours that RAF didn't want to unnecessary expose the system to adverse weather.

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## Riz

PanzerKiel said:


> Inclement weather..... Next 3 to 4 days..... Delays.


I thought J-10c is multirole *all weather *aircrafts

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## Oruc

I remember my cousin in one ramadhan used to ask his mother to check weather at sehri. If it was cloudy then he used to fast as he would not be flying that day. I think he was on K-8 as instructor.

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## Metal 0-1

Weather is overrated, Just fly straight through the snow storm.

P.S Clouds are added stealth

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## aliyusuf

Deino said:


> Maybe the only reason why they wait is that bad weather would ruin the welcome party!?








Bad weather is probably at the Pak-China border and surrounding areas.

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## SIPRA

Riz said:


> I thought J-10c is multirole *all weather *aircrafts



The helicopter, which carried General "*Peepni*", was also "*all weather*". So, better to be careful and prudent.

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## MIRauf

PanzerKiel said:


> Inclement weather..... Next 3 to 4 days..... Delays.


Good Sir, you should have tried harder to bring 'em back with you, we could have had them for a while now.

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## Dreamer.

Iceman2 said:


> Ignore my lack of knowledge but aren't these all weather jets sounds stupid if a war breaks out and we say we can't fly because of weather


War time is different from peace time because priorities are different. HOWEVER weather does affect military operations even in a war, and not just in the air. On Land, air and in the sea aswell. This is not stupid, it's a fact of life. Also remember weather is the same for both sides in a war, if it affects you it also affects your enemy. Of course the affects may not have the same result for both sides depending on a lot of factors.

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## siegecrossbow

sneakerspark said:


> And since its a long haul flight of brand new aircrafts, one would only go with the flight once all items are ticked on the checklist.
> 
> I wonder if they would perform A2A refuel along the way. Or is it even needed to refuel mid way?



Three fuel tanks + internal fuel is more than enough to get it home.

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## NA71

PM just addressed to the nation.... J-10C 🤣...... Samjh tu gaey hon gay aap.

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## Dreamer.

PanzerKiel said:


> Inclement weather..... Next 3 to 4 days..... Delays.





WinterFangs said:


> They are preparing to fly to Pakistan, on what day I don’t know. It’s as everyone else said, when the weather is suitable.


Dragons don't like rain, it puts out the fire.

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## MIRauf

Dreamer. said:


> Dragons don't like rain, it puts out the fire.


May be Fire Dragons, I bet Lightning Dragons would love to be in that kinda weather.

PS: Sorry, just a little d&d lore.


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## Iceman2

Dreamer. said:


> War time is different from peace time because priorities are different. HOWEVER weather does affect military operations even in a war, and not just in the air. On Land, air and in the sea aswell. This is not stupid, it's a fact of life. Also remember weather is the same for both sides in a war, if it affects you it also affects your enemy. Of course the affects may not have the same result for both sides depending on a lot of factors.


Point taken thanks


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## Aesterix

Windjammer said:


> A few years back, a Battle of Britain flypast consisting of Second World War fighters and bombers and Eurofighter Typhoons was planned......on the actual day, there was a slight drizzle on......ironically, the WW 2 aircraft did the flypast but the Typhoon failed to appear.
> No explanation was given except the rumours that RAF didn't want to unnecessary expose the system to adverse weather.


Reminds me of RAF Tornado missing the time slot for its flying display at Farnborough, and all of us laughed. 
But that was due to low clouds.
J-10 will fly way above cloud cover forca ferry flight.
So I am not sols on this reason of delay.

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## JohnWick

Cloud reason is a bsT one if an airliner can fly in bad weather then 4.5 gen aircraft will also be unaffected by the weather....

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## araz

ziaulislam said:


> Cant PAF pitch f16s against j10 in real time testing to see whats better ?


I only refer to the statement. I think if you were to hold this contest tomorrow the J10 will lose out. If you were to hold it 3-5 yrs from now the J10 will stand a chance to win . the experience of pilots on the platform is an important factor.

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## Aesterix

NA71 said:


> PM just addressed to the nation.... J-10C 🤣...... Samjh tu gaey hon gay aap.


Did he say that?


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## Raider 21

Iceman2 said:


> Ignore my lack of knowledge but aren't these all weather jets sounds stupid if a war breaks out and we say we can't fly because of weather


Both India and Pakistan employ "fair weather" air forces. During Red Flag exercises, both air forces opted not to fly when weather conditions were demanding.

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## alikazmi007

Metal 0-1 said:


> Weather is overrated, Just fly straight through the snow storm.
> 
> P.S Clouds are added stealth



Totally, Just ask Modi ....! he's one smart cookie.

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## siegecrossbow

Dreamer. said:


> Dragons don't like rain, it puts out the fire.



Chinese dragons are rulers of the oceans, lakes and rivers.









Dragon King - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org

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## baqai

NA71 said:


> PM just addressed to the nation.... J-10C 🤣...... Samjh tu gaey hon gay aap.



kia bola J-10 kai baray mai?


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## Aesterix

Raider 21 said:


> Both India and Pakistan employ "fair weather" air forces. During Red Flag exercises, both air forces opted not to fly when weather conditions were demanding.


Here in UK, if the air force has similar policy, they will never fly.

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## Metal 0-1

alikazmi007 said:


> Totally, Just ask Modi ....! he's one smart cookie.


he got the reference


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## Scorpiooo

Any solid info on initial number for induction as 25 seems non sense

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## Marker

Since PAF has inducted J-10Cs in her fleet, it is most appropriate to have a dedicated thread where members can share info or discuss their opinions, instead of doing the same in other irrelevant threads.

One of the hot issues which is under discussion is its engine and TOT. This topic is being aggressively discussed in JF-17 Block 3 thread.

Moderator @The Eagle and PDF Think Tank Consultant @araz are requested to transfer all posts concerning PAF J 10C for ease of other surfing members to gain valuable info about this aircraft.

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## baqai

why create another thread, just rename this thread to J-10CP Official thread once they land?

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## araz

Marker said:


> Since PAF has inducted J-10Cs in her fleet, it is most appropriate to have a dedicated thread where members can share info or discuss their opinions, instead of doing the same in other irrelevant threads.
> 
> One of the hot issues which is under discussion is its engine and TOT. This topic is being aggressively discussed in JF-17 Block 3 thread.
> 
> Moderator @The Eagle and PDF Think Tank Consultant @araz are requested to transfer all posts concerning PAF J 10C for ease of other surfing members to gain valuable info about this aircraft.


Thank you for your post. Firstly I agree we should all stick to the thread. Secondly no think tank has powers to move posts.
If you look at Messiach's post it specifically said PAF will need TOT for FADEC from Lyalca Saturn. Now that got me thinking if we get TOT for the FADEC can we get it on the RD series or not. Now I am a total infant when it comes to engineering matters but one wonders whether this is the reason PAF is going to go for it as well.
As mentioned I maybe totally wrong and happy to be corrected bit just throwing it out there.
A

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## Raider 21

Aesterix said:


> Here in UK, if the air force has similar policy, they will never fly.


RAF, RN and British Army fly regularly irrespective of the weather until it is too much

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## ghazi52

...Deleted... wrong thread


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## Aesterix

Raider 21 said:


> RAF, RN and British Army fly regularly irrespective of the weather until it is too much


I know. Been to Mach loop.
But why can't PAF do the same?


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## siegecrossbow

In case anyone skeptical about J-10's all weather capabilities.

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## The Terminator

Scorpiooo said:


> Any solid info on initial number for induction as 25 seems non sense


25 are more than enough to make a squadron. It's not that bad number! 36 would have made 2 squadrons.

I think sheikh was told that till 23rd March you would have 25 jets ready in Pakistani colors to take part in the parade. So a few of them would take part in the parade and the constant supply would continue till initial order of unknown quantity is completed. I am sure PAF would never tell the number they are aiming for. 

Can only be disclosed if someone update us on Ministry of Defence acquisition expenditures document of the ongoing year


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## The Terminator

araz said:


> I only refer to the statement. I think if you were to hold this contest tomorrow the J10 will lose out. If you were to hold it 3-5 yrs from now the J10 will stand a chance to win . the experience of pilots on the platform is an important factor.


Can't deny the pilot's experience part but F-16s in PAF inventory are no match for the latest Vigorous Dragon in A-A combat. Highly effective radar, latest ew suite, more lethal BVR missile, wide angle HOBS WVR missiles. It's a beast. PAF would already have evaluated J-10C against thunders, fighting falcons and flankers before taking a purchasing decision.

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## The Terminator

TopGun786 said:


> View attachment 819503
> 
> No. 22-103?


Who is flying them? Pakistani or Chinese pilot's???


Deino said:


> I just got the first three very clear images, but still from CAC


Plz share them here! 


untitled said:


> Is it not possible to fly over the clouds?


Perhaps it has to do with snowy cold weather. Planes generally have issue of ice forming on the wings and the fuselage during lengthy flights, which could result in an accident. The planes are treated before take off with ice resistant showers. 

Just a wild guess though.

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## Aesterix

Still no pics of J-10C In Pakistan?




J-10CP
پشاور میں نظر آ گیا

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## The Terminator

RAMPAGE said:


> So does the IAF. Comparisons of potential competitor weapons in isolation have their use and should not be avoided by appeal to the synced nature of modern warfare. It is highly likely that these platforms will engage the enemy while disconnected from their C4ISR - as Abhinandan was obliged to.


I have busted the myth of those fake infographics don't wanna send here as it would derail the topic if you are interested then tag me a relevant thread so I would debunk the whole Indian bias of that fake infographic and would provide you a reality check



Aesterix said:


> Still no pics of J-10C I'm Pakistan?
> View attachment 819635
> 
> J-19CP
> پشاور میں نظر آ گیا


Lol it's a fighter plane, not an Eid's moon 🌜  



Aesterix said:


> The "Beast of the east" SU-30MKI was dispatched and others ran away with their tales between their legs.
> There's a lot more to air combat than just radar range.
> Higher radar range also means the enemy can pickup your radar signals and know your location and send an anti radiation missile your way.


Don't worry I have spotted the scam in that deceptive infographic. It's totally fake made to just boost the ego of Indians. Highly exaggerated indian radar ranges vs highly downgraded Pakistani radars, missile ranges.

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## The Terminator

RAMPAGE said:


> So does the IAF. Comparisons of potential competitor weapons in isolation have their use and should not be avoided by appeal to the synced nature of modern warfare. It is highly likely that these platforms will engage the enemy while disconnected from their C4ISR - as Abhinandan was obliged to.


Contact me and I would trash that fake picture with simple kindergarten maths question of subtraction. It was a fake comparison done by Indian disinfo lab


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## The Terminator

With the permission of admins if I can post an image here plz! *To debunk a lie.

The scale is fake and biased itself. PAF fighters ranges are heavily downgraded* and IAF jets exaggerated over max.

Just a test case:
KLJ-7 V2 has a reported range of 105KM and KLJ-7A around 150KM at least. These may be more than that.

By using the top scale whose total value is 200, I would chalk out ranges of the thunders radars. By simple maths

*200-105=95 so the KLJ-7 V2 range should not be less than at point 95 on top scale, which is marked as the blue line.

200-150=50 so the KLJ-7A range should not be less than at point 50 on top scale, which is marked in as green line.

Maths can't lie but indian sources surely can.*

And everything else are also lies. J-10CP would have definitely better range than JF-17 Block 3 due to bigger radar antenna. And *the missile ranges of the PAF are also shortened as are the radar ranges* just to deceive the people and brag about Rafale as they did with Su-30MKIs. Typical baniya minds.









RAMPAGE said:


> So does the IAF. Comparisons of potential competitor weapons in isolation have their use and should not be avoided by appeal to the synced nature of modern warfare. It is highly likely that these platforms will engage the enemy while disconnected from their C4ISR - as Abhinandan was obliged to.

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## Gripen9

The Terminator said:


> With the permission of admins if I can post an image here plz! *To debunk a lie.
> 
> The scale is fake and biased itself. PAF fighters ranges are heavily downgraded* and IAF jets exaggerated over max.
> 
> Just a test case:
> KLJ-7 V2 has a reported range of 105KM and KLJ-7A around 150KM at least. These may be more than that.
> 
> By using the top scale whose total value is 200, I would chalk out ranges of the thunders radars. By simple maths
> 
> *200-105=95 so the KLJ-7 V2 range should not be less than at point 95 on top scale, which is marked as the blue line.
> 
> 200-150=50 so the KLJ-7A range should not be less than at point 50 on top scale, which is marked in as green line.
> 
> Maths can't lie but indian sources surely can.*
> 
> And everything else are also lies. J-10CP would have definitely better range than JF-17 Block 3 due to bigger radar antenna. And *the missile ranges of the PAF are also shortened as are the radar ranges* just to deceive the people and brag about Rafale as they did with Su-30MKIs. Typical baniya minds.
> 
> View attachment 819644



Irrespective of BS data spewed in this graph. Look at the sanghi audacity. On one side they are calling tejas ( A french design, israeli radar, US engine and Russian AAMs as Indian) while on the other side JF-17 is a Chinese product. LOL

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## The Terminator

The Terminator said:


> With the permission of admins if I can post an image here plz! *To debunk a lie.
> 
> The scale is fake and biased itself. PAF fighters ranges are heavily downgraded* and IAF jets exaggerated over max.
> 
> Just a test case:
> KLJ-7 V2 has a reported range of 105KM and KLJ-7A around 150KM at least. These may be more than that.
> 
> By using the top scale whose total value is 200, I would chalk out ranges of the thunders radars. By simple maths
> 
> *200-105=95 so the KLJ-7 V2 range should not be less than at point 95 on top scale, which is marked as the blue line.
> 
> 200-150=50 so the KLJ-7A range should not be less than at point 50 on top scale, which is marked in as green line.
> 
> Maths can't lie but indian sources surely can.*
> 
> And everything else are also lies. J-10CP would have definitely better range than JF-17 Block 3 due to bigger radar antenna. And *the missile ranges of the PAF are also shortened as are the radar ranges* just to deceive the people and brag about Rafale as they did with Su-30MKIs. Typical baniya minds.
> 
> View attachment 819644


By this comparison of we imagine the correct value of J-10CP which would be an improvement over than the KLJ-7A radar and water down a bit the hyped up Rafale. Then J-10CP can take on Rafale one on one quite easily and would smoke any other Indian fighter in BVR engagement ranges. Still the Indian Rafale has to show it's capability as it's been claimed by Indians, if they really possess the meteor missile or not.

On top of that PAF have far superior data link synergy amongst it's platforms, so would fight like 1 cohesive force in contrast to IAF's isolated bits and pieces. 

We would be in better shape to repeat Operation swift retort at any given day for the foreseeable future.

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## The Terminator

Gripen9 said:


> Irrespective of BS data spewed in this graph. Look at the sanghi audacity. On one side they are calling tejas ( A french design, israeli radar, US engine and Russian AAMs as Indian) while on the other side JF-17 is a Chinese product. LOL


They have thrown themselves into subhuman levels. 

Who would believe now that this unified India was once the crown jewel of the world producing around 30% of the total global GDP a couple of centuries ago!

Full of sh!t. The current Modi Govt and lunatic media has accelerated their neurological degradation multiple times. Pathetic!

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## siegecrossbow

Aesterix said:


> Still no pics of J-10C In Pakistan?
> View attachment 819635
> 
> J-10CP
> پشاور میں نظر آ گیا



This appears to be a new variant called J-10PS.



The Terminator said:


> Who is flying them?* Pakistani or Chinese pilot's???*
> 
> Plz share them here!
> 
> Perhaps it has to do with snowy cold weather. Planes generally have issue of ice forming on the wings and the fuselage during lengthy flights, which could result in an accident. The planes are treated before take off with ice resistant showers.
> 
> Just a wild guess though.



They are sending PLAAF pilots on a one way trip to Pakistan and once they dismount, they'll spend the rest of their career sight seeing in Islamabad... Of course those are Pakistanis pilots!

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Gripen9 said:


> Irrespective of BS data spewed in this graph. Look at the sanghi audacity. On one side they are calling tejas ( A french design, israeli radar, US engine and Russian AAMs as Indian) while on the other side JF-17 is a Chinese product. LOL


One ton of education requires 9 tons of intelligence to be successful in positive matters. Clever Indians think cunningness is more important than intelligence, and negative thought process supersedes every thing else and is the only way to success. Hence, their prime strategy is to fight Pak till the Last Afgan/TTP/BLA/AZ/NS/PDM/PTM etc.

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## araz

The Terminator said:


> Can't deny the pilot's experience part but F-16s in PAF inventory are no match for the latest Vigorous Dragon in A-A combat. Highly effective radar, latest ew suite, more lethal BVR missile, wide angle HOBS WVR missiles. It's a beast. PAF would already have evaluated J-10C against thunders, fighting falcons and flankers before taking a purchasing decision.


When there has not been a single encounter? I had laid down the conditions. I don't think one should get over confident. The F16 is still a very potent killing machine with an enviable record. The J10 has not seen any such encounters so one should be careful in one's assessment. If this was not the case then why do we blame the Indians for their pre 27/02 worship of the mighty MKI. I understand the advantage the J10 will have but still don't underestimate the old dog.
A

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## The Eagle

Thread is sticky since it is confirmed and can be easy for access as well as to post news accordingly. 
Thanks Allama Sahib. 

Secondly about engine debacle, I think it will be premature and even Non-credible heresy but insisting kind of discussion if we are about to create a separate thread. Mind you, this is still a personal opinion based on possible info but we can't just rely or even acknowledge that. However, if @messiach think that she can spare some time and share the permitted information, it will be posted as a new thread. However, in my personal opinion, it doesn't need a separate discussion as of yet. I would say if officials are tight lipped, let us not run ahead of time. At least, it may be narrated in other sense and might have misunderstood for some reasons. I believe Messiach has her own reasons to not to continue on subject. 

For the time being, @araz and me, are in conversation and we might come up with something if need be. Till then please continue here.

Regards

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## Marker

Evolution of Jet Engine fuel control system from hydro mechanical to digital is something worth discussing. FCU to UFC (F-100 engine), supported by EEC then DEEC. Now we have FADEC (Full Authority Digital Engine Control) installed on latest RD-93/33 and WS-10 engines.

Extent of ToT PAF to acquire from the manufacturers is the interesting subject which may be addressed.

In my opinion. PAC PAF will negotiate for ToT which will include complete overhauling facility consisting of test rig(s) and other overhauling tools and equipment. Training of manpower to conduct such maintenance will also be the part of ToT.

Though this type of facility will provide insight knowledge of FADEC technology but it will not be enough to establish independent facility to design and manufacture such sophisticated components. However, it can be a stepping stone for further advancement.

I am not sure if PAC PAF already have overhauling facility for BARK 93 or otherwise. However, JF-17 engine smoke problem addressed in the past indicates our engineers were able to tweak the fuel control system. How? Needs some reliable info.

PS: Any ToT from non-western country is not simple. Language is the biggest issue. Russians and Chinese tech manuals are not like US and other western countries' tech manuals. Language, technical terms, symbols and abbreviations some or most of the times do not match with western standards.

PAC tech teams acquiring such knowledge have to exert lot of efforts to prepare these tech manuals at par of PAF standards. @messiach



araz said:


> If you look at Messiach's post it specifically said PAF will need TOT for FADEC from Lyalca Saturn. Now that got me thinking if we get TOT for the FADEC can we get it on the RD series or not. Now I am a total infant when it comes to engineering matters but one wonders whether this is the reason PAF is going to go for it as well.
> As mentioned I maybe totally wrong and happy to be corrected bit just throwing it out there.
> A

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## Zarvan

The Terminator said:


> 25 are more than enough to make a squadron. It's not that bad number! 36 would have made 2 squadrons.
> 
> I think sheikh was told that till 23rd March you would have 25 jets ready in Pakistani colors to take part in the parade. So a few of them would take part in the parade and the constant supply would continue till initial order of unknown quantity is completed. I am sure PAF would never tell the number they are aiming for.
> 
> Can only be disclosed if someone update us on Ministry of Defence acquisition expenditures document of the ongoing year


Order is not of 25. 25 will be in Pakistan by 23rd March. Order was of 36 which according to latest reports has been increased to 60. And go even further.

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## Marker

The Terminator said:


> View attachment 819644


Let them be ostrich.....Happy hunting for PAF hunters.

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## blain2

Why worry about infographics? The less is known, the more own capabilities are under-estimated, the better it is. There are so many other factors involved that such simplistic assessment rarely are accurate. Perhaps for chest-thumping this is alright.

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## blain2

Aesterix said:


> I know. Been to Mach loop.
> But why can't PAF do the same?





Raider 21 said:


> Both India and Pakistan employ "fair weather" air forces. During Red Flag exercises, both air forces opted not to fly when weather conditions were demanding.


When deploying aircraft overseas and to airspaces where air crews are not fully acclimatized, it is quite possible that visiting aircraft would not go on sorties in rough weather. It is a matter of risk when flying overseas because in adverse weather, you may have to rely on instrumentation and that too in an unknown air space, as such it is more risk than necessary. Secondly, on deployments like Red Flag, there are sufficient days built into the exercise to cover for sorties lost to adverse weather etc. Why then put the crews in a tight situation?

However, when home-side, flying only in "fair weather" only isn't the norm. As an example, flight operations out of PAF base Qadri (Skardu) have to be conducted quite frequently in over-cast, rainy weather.

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## jaybird

blain2 said:


> Why worry about infographics? The less is known, the more own capabilities are under-estimated, the better it is. There are so many other factors involved that such simplistic assessment rarely are accurate. Perhaps for chest-thumping this is alright.



Sometimes chest-thumping or D measuring contest is very important and fun for the boys and men in military forums. Especially when you have new toys in town. 😅


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## ahtan_china

It's time to leave China soon. Good luck
一路顺风，一路平安

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## FuturePAF

Vapnope said:


> View attachment 819683


See above


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## Chak Bamu

Come on PAF, don't worry about the weather. We want them to look shiny when they land. Rain is free wash, right?

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## Ghessan

Chak Bamu said:


> Come on PAF, don't worry about the weather. We want them to look shiny when they land. Rain is free wash, right?



free wash comes with oil change, they are spanking new. 

also can we smash a mango at the face of the fighter when it arrives? rajnath did a coconut.

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## baqai

Marker said:


> Evolution of Jet Engine fuel control system from hydro mechanical to digital is something worth discussing. FCU to UFC (F-100 engine), supported by EEC then DEEC. Now we have FADEC (Full Authority Digital Engine Control) installed on latest RD-93/33 and WS-10 engines.
> 
> Extent of ToT PAF to acquire from the manufacturers is the interesting subject which may be addressed.
> 
> In my opinion. PAC PAF will negotiate for ToT which will include complete overhauling facility consisting of test rig(s) and other overhauling tools and equipment. Training of manpower to conduct such maintenance will also be the part of ToT.
> 
> Though this type of facility will provide insight knowledge of FADEC technology but it will not be enough to establish independent facility to design and manufacture such sophisticated components. However, it can be a stepping stone for further advancement.
> 
> I am not sure if PAC PAF already have overhauling facility for BARK 93 or otherwise. However, JF-17 engine smoke problem addressed in the past indicates our engineers were able to tweak the fuel control system. How? Needs some reliable info.
> 
> *PS: Any ToT from non-western country is not simple. Language is the biggest issue. Russians and Chinese tech manuals are not like US and other western countries' tech manuals. Language, technical terms, symbols and abbreviations some or most of the times do not match with western standards.*
> 
> PAC tech teams acquiring such knowledge have to exert lot of efforts to prepare these tech manuals at par of PAF standards. @messiach



I think by now PAF will be having personal proficient in Mandarin and Cantonese languages, we have been working with China for ages now.

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## PanzerKiel

Ghessan said:


> free wash comes with oil change, they are spanking new.
> 
> also can we smash a mango at the face of the fighter when it arrives? rajnath did a coconut.


Mango is a better option.
Imagine Aamir bhai telling to a J10 pilot.

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## Chak Bamu

Ghessan said:


> free wash comes with oil change, they are spanking new.
> 
> also can we smash a mango at the face of the fighter when it arrives? rajnath did a coconut.


The coconut dent cost them one million dollars & they charged it to special Hindutva budget. They could have used a mango, but rituals are not to be messed with, I suppose.

What should we do? I think we should have a mango party - 4 months later when Chaunsa hits the market.

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## Raider 21

blain2 said:


> When deploying aircraft overseas and to airspaces where air crews are not fully acclimatized, it is quite possible that visiting aircraft would not go on sorties in rough weather. It is a matter of risk when flying overseas because in adverse weather, you may have to rely on instrumentation and that too in an unknown air space, as such it is more risk than necessary. Secondly, on deployments like Red Flag, there are sufficient days built into the exercise to cover for sorties lost to adverse weather etc. Why then put the crews in a tight situation?
> 
> However, when home-side, flying only in "fair weather" only isn't the norm. As an example, flight operations out of PAF base Qadri (Skardu) have to be conducted quite frequently in over-cast, rainy weather.


This "fair weather" exercise comment was quoted by a PAF Viper driver that had attended Red Flag in 2016. Everyone else flew during those demanding weather days, PAF didn't. Similarly in 2008, the IAF did the same with their Su-30MKIs

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## Ghessan

Chak Bamu said:


> The coconut dent cost them one million dollars & they charged it to special Hindutva budget. They could have used a mango, but rituals are not to be messed with in a Hindu Rashtra, I suppose.
> 
> What should we do? I think we should have a mango party - 4 months later when Chaunsa hits the market.



that's a good idea even a bit earlier with sindhri would be good.

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## Zarvan

Will they land in this century or not ? Now it is getting funny now. We need them in Pakistan

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## Riz

Zarvan said:


> Will they land in this century or not ? Now it is getting funny now. We need them in Pakistan


What is funny? Many senior member posted here that because of weather the arrival has been delayed for few more days , ap itna bekarar Keun ho ?? Kia Ukraine war ma hisa laina ha ??

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## PanzerKiel

Riz said:


> , ap itna bekarar Keun ho ?

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## Rafael

Riz said:


> What is funny? Many senior member posted here that because of weather the arrival has been delayed for few more days , ap itna bekarar Keun ho ?? Kia Ukraine war ma hisa laina ha ??



Zarvan bhai ney J10C k khatney kerney hain

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## Riz

Rafael said:


> Zarvan bhai ney J10C k khatney kerney hain


Nhi bhai …molana sb na dance party rakhi hoi ha J-10c k any ki khushi ma

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## Ghessan

PanzerKiel said:


>


@Zarvan 
Panzer paa ji pick perfect beqarari in you, get married now.

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## White privilege

PanzerKiel said:


> Mango is a better option.
> Imagine Aamir bhai telling to a J10 pilot.
> View attachment 819718


Ab tou Amir bhai ki batoon ka bura nahin maan sakte, sirf in se seekh sakte hain....😁🤣

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## Deino

*Guys ... can you stick to English please!*

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## kursed

PanzerKiel said:


>


Kia yaad kara dia hai. Thank you! Sorry @Deino

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## Deino

Any news concerning the weather? My friend at CAC so far have no news.

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## Ghessan

Deino said:


> Any news concerning the weather? My friend at CAC so far have no news.



weather is fine, perfect!


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## Deino

Ghessan said:


> weather is fine, perfect!




So, let them GO!  ... let the dragons fly.

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## Aesterix

My sources telling me ,J-10C deal never happened, all the photos were doctored. Sheikh rashid had magic mushrooms when he made the statement, and I am spiderman.

P.S. @Irfan Baloch is of the same opinion.

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## White privilege

Raider 21 said:


> This "fair weather" exercise comment was quoted by a PAF Viper driver that had attended Red Flag in 2016. Everyone else flew during those demanding weather days, PAF didn't. Similarly in 2008, the IAF did the same with their Su-30MKIs


If other countries' Vipers flew in bad weather, then why exactly did the PAF abstain?? Surely they fly over Kashmir operationally no matter the weather.....


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## Chak Bamu

White privilege said:


> If other countries' Vipers flew in bad weather, then why exactly did the PAF abstain?? Surely they fly over Kashmir operationally no matter the weather.....


PAF has done a stellar job with our birds as far as maintenance is concerned. This is how they take care of the birds. I have no problem with this practice. This just shows frugality & care. You can not find much wrong with it. PAF does not have a big budget.

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## White privilege

Chak Bamu said:


> PAF has done a stellar job with our birds as far as maintenance is concerned. This is how they take care of the birds. I have no problem with this practice. This just shows frugality & care. You can not find much wrong with it. PAF does not have a big budget.


Yeah that fits...


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## Deino

PAF J-10CP serial number 22-105 was spotted for the first time carrying three fuel tanks and with the IFR-probe attached.

Left the original image, right a layman's attempt to improve it ... 😉

(Image via @ACEofPAF on FB)

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## Riz

Deino said:


> PAF J-10CP serial number 22-105 was spotted for the first time carrying three fuel tanks and with the IFR-probe attached.
> 
> Left the original image, right a layman's attempt to improve it ... 😉
> 
> (Image via @ACEofPAF on FB)
> 
> View attachment 819798
> 
> 
> View attachment 819799


@Zarvan bhai be ready

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## Ghessan

I have some news, i will not break but dawn may break.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

I have a question.

Is the J-10C a pure Chinese machine or it incorporates any imported parts?

Asking this in light of what's happening between Ukraine and Russia.


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## Deino

Ghessan said:


> I have some news, i will not break but dawn may break.




But please not a PAF J-20!  ... I know there is one faked image around since this morning but we should better leave it as it is.

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## Salza

Deino said:


> But please not a PAF J-20!  ... I know there is one faked image around since this morning but we should better leave it as it is.


Ahem what ? :p


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## Deino

Salza said:


> Ahem what ? :p




Yes there is an image available showing several J-10Cs at CAC in the background and two J-20 in front with one showing a PAF flag on the tail. However on the inner side and even more neither the structures on the fin nor the angle of the flag fits.

I'm pretty sure it is only a prank to make fun of an over-impatient German denying Pakistan would ever get J-20s.

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## cssniper

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> I have a question.
> 
> Is the J-10C a pure Chinese machine or it incorporates any imported parts?
> 
> Asking this in light of what's happening between Ukraine and Russia.


Early ones use AL31FN, but latest ones including J-10CP are made in China 100%.

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## Riz

Deino said:


> Yes there is an image available showing several J-10Cs at CAC in the background and two J-20 in front with one showing a PAF flag on the tail. However on the inner side and even more neither the structures on the fin nor the angle of the flag fits.
> 
> I'm pretty sure it is only a prank to make fun of an over-impatient German denying Pakistan would ever get J-20s.


You again making fun of Pakistanis here on PDF @MastanKhan

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## Deino

Riz said:


> You again making fun of Pakistanis here on PDF @MastanKhan




Not with all, only of a very special one and exactly my thought ... he already admitted he lied and faked news, so why not this too?

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## Vapnope

Just imagine if 2 J20s actually come to Pakistan...
The buzz on social media would be too much to handle

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## Oruc

Vapnope said:


> Just imagine if 2 J20s actually come to Pakistan...
> The buzz on social media would be too much to handle


Indians would be looking for Toruk Makto.

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## Beast



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## Enigma SIG

Raider 21 said:


> RAF, RN and British Army fly regularly irrespective of the weather until it is too much


It's always too much weather in the UK


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## HRK

Beast said:


>


summary ... ??

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## messiach

Marker said:


> Evolution of Jet Engine fuel control system from hydro mechanical to digital is something worth discussing. FCU to UFC (F-100 engine), supported by EEC then DEEC. Now we have FADEC (Full Authority Digital Engine Control) installed on latest RD-93/33 and WS-10 engines.
> 
> Extent of ToT PAF to acquire from the manufacturers is the interesting subject which may be addressed.
> 
> In my opinion. PAC PAF will negotiate for ToT which will include complete overhauling facility consisting of test rig(s) and other overhauling tools and equipment. Training of manpower to conduct such maintenance will also be the part of ToT.
> 
> Though this type of facility will provide insight knowledge of FADEC technology but it will not be enough to establish independent facility to design and manufacture such sophisticated components. However, it can be a stepping stone for further advancement.
> 
> I am not sure if PAC PAF already have overhauling facility for BARK 93 or otherwise. However, JF-17 engine smoke problem addressed in the past indicates our engineers were able to tweak the fuel control system. How? Needs some reliable info.
> 
> PS: Any ToT from non-western country is not simple. Language is the biggest issue. Russians and Chinese tech manuals are not like US and other western countries' tech manuals. Language, technical terms, symbols and abbreviations some or most of the times do not match with western standards.
> 
> PAC tech teams acquiring such knowledge have to exert lot of efforts to prepare these tech manuals at par of PAF standards. @messiach


Saheeh.

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## hotpizza

J-10C vs Rafale

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## StormBreaker

@Deino Share the pics here

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## Falcon26

Ghessan said:


> I have some news, i will not break but dawn may break.



I have even bigger news but I will wait for the BBC to break it.

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## PanzerKiel

Falcon26 said:


> I have even bigger news but I will wait for the BBC to break it.


I've got this, but mom doesn't allow me to break it.

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## araz

ahtan_china said:


> It's time to leave China soon. Good luck
> 一路顺风，一路平安
> View attachment 819687
> View attachment 819688
> View attachment 819689
> View attachment 819690
> View attachment 819691
> View attachment 819692


We can't wait to see these babies


----------



## siegecrossbow

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> I have a question.
> 
> Is the J-10C a pure Chinese machine or it incorporates any imported parts?
> 
> Asking this in light of what's happening between Ukraine and Russia.



Every nut and bolt is Chinese.

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## Shotgunner51

HRK said:


> summary ... ??


The main content of this episode (of a CCTV program): Recently, the first Pakistan Air Force painted J-10C multi-role fighter appeared on social media, which also made the Pakistan Air Force the first overseas user of the J-10C fighter. The first eight "Xiaolong" Block-3 fighters newly off the line have also entered the Pakistan Air Force for experimental flights, and everything is going well.

(translated)

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## zhxy

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> I have a question.
> 
> *Is the J-10C a pure Chinese machine or it incorporates any imported parts?*
> 
> Asking this in light of what's happening between Ukraine and Russia.



Certainly there are some parts and components from abroad

100% localization, that does not exist.

*Example:* Chinese WS-10 engine. Shenyang does not produce 100% of all components, they buy components from many subcontractors (domestic and foreign), finally assembled at the main factory.

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## araz

messiach said:


> Saheeh.


So what you are implying is that thd TOT might help in evolving the engines that we have currently got ie RD93s.

A

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## siegecrossbow

zhxy said:


> Certainly there are some parts and components from abroad
> 
> 100% localization, that does not exist.
> 
> *Example:* Chinese WS-10 engine. Shenyang does not produce 100% of all components, they buy components from many subcontractors (domestic and foreign), finally assembled at the main factory.
> 
> View attachment 819885



That is done for economic reasons. I think that if the parts get choked, China could produce those locally.

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## The Terminator

Which radar is use on J-10 and J-10C particularly? KLJ-7 series for JF-17 blocks and KLJ-10 series for J-10!

Can't find on internet about KLJ-10 radars! Any details about it?? @Deino or anyone who knows something about J-10 radars like we have details about KLJ-7 radars for the JF-17


----------



## Readerdefence

Deino said:


> PAF J-10CP serial number 22-105 was spotted for the first time carrying three fuel tanks and with the IFR-probe attached.
> 
> Left the original image, right a layman's attempt to improve it ... 😉
> 
> (Image via @ACEofPAF on FB)
> 
> View attachment 819798
> 
> 
> View attachment 819799


Hi Deino can you confirm about HP on chin for Pakistani J10c as we have seen some on Chinese J10c 
thank you


----------



## White privilege

Deino said:


> So, let them GO!  ... let the dragons fly.
> 
> View attachment 819782


But they are no match for his moves...!!😁

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## baqai

PanzerKiel said:


> I've got this, but mom doesn't allow me to break it.
> View attachment 819854



i broke one of these and it turns out it was susrali jehaiz wala ... got by behind whooped by wifey :/

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## Engima Chaudhry

The Terminator said:


> Who is flying them? Pakistani or Chinese pilot's???
> 
> Plz share them here!
> 
> Perhaps it has to do with snowy cold weather. Planes generally have issue of ice forming on the wings and the fuselage during lengthy flights, which could result in an accident. The planes are treated before take off with ice resistant showers.
> 
> Just a wild guess though.


The problem is not inclement weather. I suppose , they may have already arrived. And if , not , maybe completing pre delivery flight checks .


----------



## Dual Wielder

PanzerKiel said:


> I've got this, but mom doesn't allow me to break it.
> View attachment 819854



If its says KSA at the bottom, tell her their meant for breaking.*

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## Deino

Readerdefence said:


> Hi Deino can you confirm about HP on chin for Pakistani J10c as we have seen some on Chinese J10c
> thank you


I haven't seen a clear confirmation, but IMO it makes no sense to delete it ... so IMO it has one on both sides.



The Terminator said:


> Which radar is use on J-10 and J-10C particularly? KLJ-7 series for JF-17 blocks and KLJ-10 series for J-10!
> 
> Can't find on internet about KLJ-10 radars! Any details about it?? @Deino or anyone who knows something about J-10 radars like we have details about KLJ-7 radars for the JF-17




In fact there is NO information about the exact designation ... maybe @tphuang , @Beast and @siegecrossbow know more!?

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## Big_bud

Ghessan said:


> I have some news, i will not break but dawn may break.



Yani k mein nahi bataunga??

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## Deino

StormBreaker said:


> @Deino Share the pics here




Ok, ... in a much miniaturised variant and clearly marked as being FAKE! It simply makes no sense to put the PAF flag on the inner side of the tail fin and its angle/position is also not correct. And finally the colour of the inner side does not fit!

As such I'm pretty sure some Chinese had a lot of fun today pranking that over-impatient German  ... or should I say "Kraut"!?

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## Dreamer.

Deino said:


> Ok, ... in a much miniaturised variant and clearly marked as being FAKE! It simply makes no sense to put the PAF flag on the inner side of the tail fin and its angle/position is also not correct. And finally the colour of the inner side does not fit!
> 
> As such I'm pretty sure some Chinese had a lot of fun today pranking that over-impatient German  ... or should I say "Kraut"!?
> 
> View attachment 819929


Nobody asked for this picture. I THINK he was asking for the three J-10 pics you claimed to have.


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## Marker

araz said:


> So what you are implying is that thd TOT might help in evolving the engines that we have currently got ie RD93s.
> 
> A


Most likely. Once PAC get the necessary test rigs and other equipment, overhauling of similar equipment/component is very much possible, specially electronics/avionics parts which may involve hardware and softwares.

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> I haven't seen a clear confirmation, but IMO it makes no sense to delete it ... so IMO it has one on both sides.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact there is NO information about the exact designation ... maybe @tphuang , @Beast and @siegecrossbow know more!?



Nope, no information. We actually hope that the sale to Pakistan will shed more light on this mysterious radar, known only from one grainy image.

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## Aesterix

Deino said:


> Ok, ... in a much miniaturised variant and clearly marked as being FAKE! It simply makes no sense to put the PAF flag on the inner side of the tail fin and its angle/position is also not correct. And finally the colour of the inner side does not fit!
> 
> As such I'm pretty sure some Chinese had a lot of fun today pranking that over-impatient German  ... or should I say "Kraut"!?
> 
> View attachment 819929


You are only jealous that Pakistan getting 5th generation stealth, hazooMazunga jet. 😏
50 are coming

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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> Ok, ... in a much miniaturised variant and clearly marked as being FAKE! It simply makes no sense to put the PAF flag on the inner side of the tail fin and its angle/position is also not correct. And finally the colour of the inner side does not fit!
> 
> As such I'm pretty sure some Chinese had a lot of fun today pranking that over-impatient German  ... or should I say "Kraut"!?
> 
> View attachment 819929



Not just them but J-16s and whatever others including Vipers, have already landed long ago, kept hidden and awaiting for fly on appropriate time. Pakistan don't want a third world war over these. Maintaining total radio silence and blinding SATs as well. Welcome to Wakanda.



Shotgunner51 said:


> The main content of this episode (of a CCTV program): Recently, the first Pakistan Air Force painted J-10C multi-role fighter appeared on social media, which also made the Pakistan Air Force the first overseas user of the J-10C fighter. The first eight "Xiaolong" Block-3 fighters newly off the line have also entered the Pakistan Air Force for experimental flights, and everything is going well.
> 
> (translated)



Video shows 3 phased AESA KLJ-7A as well. Was it just a random mention or related to both jets in question?
Regards,

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## Khan vilatey

Aesterix said:


> My sources telling me ,J-10C deal never happened, all the photos were doctored. Sheikh rashid had magic mushrooms when he made the statement, and I am spiderman.
> 
> P.S. @Irfan Baloch is of the same opinion.


👁️📺 Me watching the show and fireworks💥

K


----------



## Beast

zhxy said:


> Certainly there are some parts and components from abroad
> 
> 100% localization, that does not exist.
> 
> *Example:* Chinese WS-10 engine. Shenyang does not produce 100% of all components, they buy components from many subcontractors (domestic and foreign), finally assembled at the main factory.
> 
> View attachment 819885


No doubt J-10C is 100% produced in China including even raw material source. Rare earth from China and even chips used on it , is loongson domestic design and domesric fabricated chips for military used. Composite are made in China, China proven to produced even grade TS-100 one.

China has the most complete supply chain ever recorded in history.

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## Beast

KLJ-10A radar , from top to bottom, 1.5 gen, 2nd gen and 3rd gen.

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## zhxy

Beast said:


> No doubt J-10C is 100% produced in China including even raw material source. Rare earth from China and even chips used on it , is loongson domestic design and domesric fabricated chips for military used. Composite are made in China, China proven to produced even grade TS-100 one.
> 
> China has the most complete supply chain ever recorded in history.



The problem is that the WS-10 engine is not produced 100% in China. Some of its components are imported from abroad.

Maybe all components of J-10 are manufactured in China. But its engine has some parts from abroad. That means that J-10 is not 100% produced in China.

Of course, we can lower the standard . 
WS-10 has a few components from abroad = 100% WS-10 is made in China
J-10 + WS-10 (some components from abroad) = 100% made in China


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## luciferdd

zhxy said:


> The problem is that the WS-10 engine is not produced 100% in China. Some of its components are imported from abroad.
> 
> Maybe all components of J-10 are manufactured in China. But its engine has some parts from abroad. That means that J-10 is not 100% produced in China.
> 
> Of course, we can lower the standard .
> WS-10 has a few components from abroad = 100% WS-10 is made in China
> J-10 + WS-10 (some components from abroad) = 100% made in China


LM corp pruduces several models of engines or part,not only WS-10.A list of import goods can't means much thing.


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## zhxy

luciferdd said:


> LM corp pruduces several models of engines or part,not only WS-10.A list of import goods can't means much thing.



That's why the author must explain the problem.
- 100% localization is impossible
- Trying to produce everything will increase production costs





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In fact, do not include the engine, I'm also not sure 100% components of J-10 are manufactured in China.

Avic is not a God. He cannot create everything. There are many components of J-10 purchased from subcontractors and cannot be sure that all subcontractors do not use components from abroad. It will be very good if avic has full statistics on all components, from raw materials, processing methods, subsystems .... but that is impossible. How can you know details about all components (tens of thousands), it involves the patents and trade secrets of subcontractors.

Logic 100% J-10 is manufactured in China. It is relative concept: AVIC design and manufacturing J-10, many components of J-10 are purchased from subcontractors. All subcontractors are Chinese companies, so J-10 is 100% made in China. Finally, subcontractors produced 100% components from raw materials or some components imported from somewhere, it was their secret, no one knew.

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## Beast

zhxy said:


> The problem is that the WS-10 engine is not produced 100% in China. Some of its components are imported from abroad.
> 
> Maybe all components of J-10 are manufactured in China. But its engine has some parts from abroad. That means that J-10 is not 100% produced in China.
> 
> Of course, we can lower the standard .
> WS-10 has a few components from abroad = 100% WS-10 is made in China
> J-10 + WS-10 (some components from abroad) = 100% made in China


Absolutely nonsense. WS-10 engine has no import parts. All parts are made in China. US is afraid of China military arising. They will not supply any parts. China is always afraid of sanction. They will not allow such important program to have any parts restricted by abroad supply. It's you who need to prove that it had imported parts.



zhxy said:


> That's why the author must explain the problem.
> - 100% localization is impossible
> - Trying to produce everything will increase production costs
> 
> View attachment 819989
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> In fact, do not include the engine, I'm also not sure 100% components of J-10 are manufactured in China.
> 
> Avic is not a God. He cannot create everything. There are many components of J-10 purchased from subcontractors and cannot be sure that all subcontractors do not use components from abroad. It will be very good if avic has full statistics on all components, from raw materials, processing methods, subsystems .... but that is impossible. How can you know details about all components (tens of thousands), it involves the patents and trade secrets of subcontractors.
> 
> ogic 100% J-10 is manufactured in China. It is relative concept: avic design and manufacturing J-10, many components of J-10 are purchased from subcontractors. All subcontractors are Chinese companies, so J-10 is 100% made in China. Finally, subcontractors produced 100% components from raw materials or some components imported from somewhere, it was their secret, no one knew.


This is just a random post by some no name body. There are many of this misleading post by Taiwanese or overseas Fanlungong members.

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## zhxy

Beast said:


> Absolutely nonsense. WS-10 engine has no import parts. All parts are made in China. US is afraid of China military arising. They will not supply any parts. China is always afraid of sanction. They will not allow such important program to have any parts restricted by abroad supply. It's you who need to prove that it had imported parts.


That's why the author must explain:
- Imported components are not important strategic components, it can be replaced
- China has core technology, he is not afraid









Beast said:


> This is just a random post by some no name body. There are many of this misleading post by Taiwanese or overseas Fanlungong members.



Unfortunately, it does not come from Taiwan or Falun Gong. It comes from China's website and has censorship
Author provides data and explains each problem








略微警惕：我们的涡扇-10发动机远远没做到100%国产化_生产


当年到了咱们这边，这两款发动机的资料基本都是全的，咱们的沈阳飞机发动机研究所在这些资料的基础上开始研制咱们的战斗机发动机，也就是涡扇-10。 这是研究所的事情，所有的涡扇-10的生产其实是交给了“…




www.sohu.com

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## Beast

zhxy said:


> That's why the author must explain the problem.
> - Imported components are not important strategic components, it can be replaced
> - China has core technology, he is not afraid
> 
> View attachment 820004
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, it does not come from Taiwan or Falun Gong. It comes from China's website and has censorship
> Author provides data and explains each problem
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 略微警惕：我们的涡扇-10发动机远远没做到100%国产化_生产
> 
> 
> 当年到了咱们这边，这两款发动机的资料基本都是全的，咱们的沈阳飞机发动机研究所在这些资料的基础上开始研制咱们的战斗机发动机，也就是涡扇-10。 这是研究所的事情，所有的涡扇-10的生产其实是交给了“…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sohu.com


Lol.. this kind of article from sohu has no proper source but just the author opinion. Unless it's from AVIC or other official source. It shall be taken with a pinch of salt.

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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> Lol.. this kind of article from sohu has no proper source but just the author opinion. Unless it's from AVIC or other official source. It shall be taken with a pinch of salt.


We won’t let those westerners squeeze our throat under any circumstances.

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## lcloo

zhxy said:


> That's why the author must explain the problem.
> - 100% localization is impossible
> - Trying to produce everything will increase production costs
> 
> View attachment 819989
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> In fact, do not include the engine, I'm also not sure 100% components of J-10 are manufactured in China.
> 
> Avic is not a God. He cannot create everything. There are many components of J-10 purchased from subcontractors and cannot be sure that all subcontractors do not use components from abroad. It will be very good if avic has full statistics on all components, from raw materials, processing methods, subsystems .... but that is impossible. How can you know details about all components (tens of thousands), it involves the patents and trade secrets of subcontractors.
> 
> Logic 100% J-10 is manufactured in China. It is relative concept: AVIC design and manufacturing J-10, many components of J-10 are purchased from subcontractors. All subcontractors are Chinese companies, so J-10 is 100% made in China. Finally, subcontractors produced 100% components from raw materials or some components imported from somewhere, it was their secret, no one knew.


Basically, the author said the imported parts are minor and non-critical. He also said that these can be replaced by domestic products. The imported parts are used because they are cheaper.

I have seen photo of land based HQ-9 (or is it HQ-16?) many years ago, with Japanese brand electrical relays fitted onto the launcher, and these are commercially available on the market. This is also obviously for cost reason, and also easily replaceable by electrical relays of other brands.

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## zhxy

Beast said:


> Lol.. this kind of article from sohu has no proper source but just the author opinion. Unless it's from AVIC or other official source. It shall be taken with a pinch of salt.


If the author's personal opinion cannot be trusted completely. Similar logic is true with the views of the members claiming 100% J-10 produced in China. Their views are idealism and lack of actual data



帅的一匹 said:


> We won’t let those westerners squeeze our throat under any circumstances.


Sure.

Buying components from the West are like buying someone's noose to hang Chinese necks.

Self-producing everything is to do.


----------



## Beast

zhxy said:


> If the author's personal opinion cannot be trusted completely. Similar logic is true with the views of the members claiming 100% J-10 produced in China. Their views are idealism and lack of actual data


We are not the one claiming that, it's AVIC high authority personal and PLAAF members claiming domestic weapon source cannot rely on foreign source especially critical component. 

While you just a pick an ramdom opinion from sohu and claim it's something authentic.


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## zhxy

China should produce everything and should not import components from abroad. If 100% J-10 is manufactured in China, it is the best scenario and should celebrate.

Return to the problem. This debate starts from the question of Pakistan members:


Pakistan Space Agency said:


> I have a question.
> 
> *Is the J-10C a pure Chinese machine or it incorporates any imported parts?*
> 
> Asking this in light of what's happening between Ukraine and Russia.



Some Chinese members replied: 100% J-10 is manufactured in China.

1. They said: 100% J-10 is made in China (no quotes and convincing evidence)

2. I do not support their views and quotes the article, the first thing they do is claim that the author is Taiwanese or Falun Gong (Try to framing someone and no evidence)

3. After I prove that the author is not a Taiwanese or from Falun Gong, they began attacking the author of the article, claiming the author added salt (personal attack and no proof)

In their world, there is no pragmatism and resources, everything in J-10 can be created by patriotism and nationalism, all other opinions are Taiwan, Falun Gong or Anti China ...

Patriotism Is Good, But Everything Goes Too Far Here

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## kursed

siegecrossbow said:


> Nope, no information. We actually hope that the sale to Pakistan will shed more light on this mysterious radar, known only from one grainy image.
> 
> View attachment 819944


Once the system arrives in Pakistan, don't expect too many pics of it. Pakistanis plan on keeping it tightly under wraps.

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## Beast

zhxy said:


> China should produce everything and should not import components from abroad. If 100% J-10 is manufactured in China, it is the best scenario and should celebrate.
> 
> Return to the problem. This debate starts from the question of Pakistan members:
> 
> 
> Some Chinese members replied: 100% J-10 is manufactured in China.
> 
> 1. They said: 100% J-10 is made in China (no quotes and convincing evidence)
> 
> 2. I do not support their views and quotes the article, the first thing they do is claim that the author is Taiwanese or Falun Gong (Try to framing someone and no evidence)
> 
> 3. After I prove that the author is not a Taiwanese or from Falun Gong, they began attacking the author of the article, claiming the author added salt (personal attack and no equal proof)
> 
> Patriotism Is Good, But Everything Goes Too Far Here


What have u prove? Pick a random Chinese article and claim it's gold? Any tom dick harry Chinese can post an article on sohu. Your article posted has zero credibility and u want us to prove otherwise. We are no blinded by nationalism but we are going by logic and many statement states by head of department claiming China will never rely on foreign import component for military project.

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## zhxy

Beast said:


> What have u prove? Pick a random Chinese article and claim it's gold? Any tom dick harry Chinese can post an article on sohu. Your article posted has zero credibility and u want us to prove otherwise. We are no blinded by nationalism but we are going by logic and many statement states by head of department claiming China will never rely on foreign import component for military project.



So what are you trying to prove? You claim that "100% J-10 is manufactured in China, and don't have any components from abroad".

It is half the truth. You do not have evidence, and just try to make a meaningless personal statement. You declare it and your logic, all others should believe it. Lol


----------



## Beast

zhxy said:


> So what are you trying to prove? You claim that "100% J-10 is manufactured in China, and don't have any components from abroad".
> That means 100% J-10 produced in China?
> It is absolutely true.?
> 
> LOL
> 
> It is half the truth. You declare it and you trust it and follow your logic, all others should believe it. Lol


太行版歼-10C列装解放军 国产三代半战机实现100%中国制造





__





太行版歼-10C列装解放军 国产三代半战机实现100%中国制造


演兵场注意到，这不仅是安装了国产太行发动机的歼-10C首次公开亮相。



j.eastday.com











This article pick up data according to documentary from state owned CCTV. Not some tom dick harry unknown Chinese.

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## zhxy

Beast said:


> What have u prove? Pick a random Chinese article and claim it's gold? Any tom dick harry Chinese can post an article on sohu. Your article posted has zero credibility and u want us to prove otherwise. We are no blinded by nationalism but we are going by logic and many statement states by head of department claiming* China will never rely on foreign import component for military project.*




So before WS-10 completely mature. What does China do with J-10, J-11, J-16, J-20? Where does the engine come from?



Beast said:


> 太行版歼-10C列装解放军 国产三代半战机实现100%中国制造
> 
> https://j.eastday.com/m/162081638877015007[/URL
> View attachment 820016
> 
> 
> This article pick up data according to documentary from state owned CCTV. Not some tom dick harry unknown Chinese.




You declare 100% J-10 as domestic production. So can you provide evidence that all components in J-10 are manufactured in the China? Data of all components?

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## Beast

zhxy said:


> You declare 100% J-10 as domestic production. So can you provide evidence that all components in J-10 are manufactured in the China? Data of all components?


If u who need to provide to back your claim with some credible source. I have back my source with claim.

太行版歼-10C列装解放军 国产三代半战机实现100%中国制造

As a Chinese yourself. You shall know what this means..


----------



## zhxy

Beast said:


> If u who need to provide to back your claim with some credible source. I have back my source with claim.
> 
> *太行版歼-10C*列装解放军 国产三代半战机实现100%中国制造
> 
> As a Chinese yourself. You shall know what this means..



So you don't have data. But you claim that 100% J-10 (tens of thousands of different components) are all made in China?


----------



## Vapnope

Boys waiting for J10s to arrive in Pakistan

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## Ghessan

Vapnope said:


> Boys waiting for J10s to arrive in Pakistan
> View attachment 820017



first, let China and Vietnam decide if it is 100% Chinese or not

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## Beast

zhxy said:


> So you don't have data. But you claim that 100% J-10 (tens of thousands of different components) are all made in China?


As if u got? Do u have actual data to prove the WS-10C components break down is import from a credible source?

So u don't have and just BS , right?

I seriously doubt u are a Chinese when u don't even know what is 太行版歼-10C列装解放军 国产三代半战机实现*100%中国制造*


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## zhxy

Beast said:


> As if u got? Do u have actual data to prove the WS-10C components break down is import from a credible source?
> 
> So u don't have and just BS , right?


Customs data is definitely reliable


----------



## Beast

zhxy said:


> View attachment 820021


Are you sure this component are all for WS-10 engine?









AECC Shenyang Liming Aero-engine Co Ltd







govt.chinadaily.com.cn





include aero engines, gas turbines, subcontracting and civil aircrafts, large petrochemical equipment, mechanical and electrical products, as well as modern services

涡轮叶片发动机， can be for other products of Shenyang liming as they involved both civilian engine servicing and military products. Even the gas power station generator are using gas turbine that can deploy 涡轮叶片发动机. Can you prove the imported parts are for WS-10C?

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## Deino

zhxy said:


> The problem is that the WS-10 engine is not produced 100% in China. Some of its components are imported from abroad.
> 
> Maybe all components of J-10 are manufactured in China. But its engine has some parts from abroad. That means that J-10 is not 100% produced in China.
> 
> Of course, we can lower the standard .
> WS-10 has a few components from abroad = 100% WS-10 is made in China
> J-10 + WS-10 (some components from abroad) = 100% made in China




Care to explain which parts? You mention this now the second time but always remain vague without mentioning the parts nor this country (most likely Russia) and the source of this report.

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## zhxy

Beast said:


> Are you sure this component are all for WS-10 engine?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AECC Shenyang Liming Aero-engine Co Ltd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> govt.chinadaily.com.cn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> include aero engines, gas turbines, subcontracting and civil aircrafts, large petrochemical equipment, mechanical and electrical products, as well as modern services
> 
> 涡轮叶片发动机， can be for other products of Shenyang liming as they involved both civilian and military products. Even the gas power station generator are using gas turbine that can deploy 涡轮叶片发动机. Can you prove the imported parts are for WS-10C?


Probability is 50/50

I can declare that all imported components are used for WS-10C. But it is half of truth.

It is similar to that you claim 100% J-10 as localization and don't have any foreign components

It is also half of truth.

There is no way to know it is absolutely exactly

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## Beast

zhxy said:


> Probability is 50/50


Thank you for your guessing...

I standby my
太行版歼-10C列装解放军 国产三代半战机实现*100%中国制造*


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## zhxy

Beast said:


> Thank you for your guessing...
> 
> I standby my
> 太行版歼-10C列装解放军 国产三代半战机实现*100%中国制造*



And you rely on any data to prove that the so-called 100% is 100%

Not 100% of 50, or 100% of 70

Because the article title is 100%, that means 100% (tens of thousands of components) is truly 100% localized?

I have read the article and it does not provide any detailed statistics.


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## Beast

zhxy said:


> And you rely on any data to prove that the so-called 100% is 100%


As if u got. You just pick a random stuff and claim it is. That sentence of 100% made in China J-10C is from state owned CCTV. You shall go question them and ask them to breakdown the component for you.

Shenyang liming is also doing servicing for civilians airliner plane engine. It's very common they import component abroad to complete that service. You have zero prove any of the imported parts are indeed for which project or destination.


----------



## zhxy

Beast said:


> As if u got. You just pick a random stuff and claim it is. That sentence of 100% made in China J-10C is from state* owned CCTV*. You shall go question them and ask them to breakdown the component for you.


So you acknowledge the truth. CCTV claims that, not AVIC, nor are contractors providing components.


Beast said:


> Shenyang liming is also doing servicing for civilians airliner plane engine. It's very common they import component abroad to complete that service. You have zero prove any of the imported parts are indeed for which project or destination.



And you cannot prove that the import components are not used on the WS-10. Finally, you cannot prove that all components are completely localized, you don't have data. But you give absolute assertions.


----------



## Beast

zhxy said:


> So you acknowledge the truth. CCTV claims that, not AVIC, nor are contractors providing components.


You are saying you have more credibility than state owned CCTV report when comes to China matter? 

Your source do not come from AVIC, remember?


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## zhxy

Beast said:


> You are saying you have more credibility than state owned CCTV report when comes to China matter?



I have never said that I'm better than CCTV

That's why I wrote "probability is 50/50"



zhxy said:


> *Probability is 50/50
> 
> I can declare that all imported components are used for WS-10C. But it is half of truth.*
> 
> It is similar to that you claim 100% J-10 as localization and don't have any foreign components
> 
> It is also half of truth.
> 
> There is no way to know it is absolutely exactly





Beast said:


> Your source do not come from AVIC, remember?



And your source does not have data. No statistics.

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## applesauce

why are you all even arguing about this.

the WS-10 CAN be 100% made in china to the same quality it is now.

However its almost certainly not 100% made in china because some non-critical things are imported due to price.

this isn't even rare. the f-35 literally has chinese screws and magnets in it, heck it even has some bare PCB boards from china in it.

almost nothing more complicated than a simple calculator in this world is normally made 100% in a country, even in china, the metals probably originally came from Australia or something

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## Beast

applesauce said:


> why are you all even arguing about this.
> 
> the WS-10 CAN be 100% made in china to the same quality it is now.
> 
> However its almost certainly not 100% made in china because some non-critical things are imported due to price.
> 
> this isn't even rare. the f-35 literally has chinese screws and magnets in it, heck it even has some bare PCB boards from china in it.
> 
> almost nothing more complicated than a simple calculator in this world is normally made 100% in a country, even in china, the metals probably originally came from Australia or something


That is not the point, he claim critical parts of WS-10C is still rely on imports. Not simple replacable parts or material.


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## zhxy

Beast said:


> That is not the point, he claim critical parts of WS-10C is still rely on imports. Not simple replacable parts or material.


Your lie skills are very good



zhxy said:


> That's why the author must explain:
> *- Imported components are not important strategic components, it can be replaced*
> - China has core technology, he is not afraid
> 
> View attachment 820004








PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion


Ok, ... in a much miniaturised variant and clearly marked as being FAKE! It simply makes no sense to put the PAF flag on the inner side of the tail fin and its angle/position is also not correct. And finally the colour of the inner side does not fit! As such I'm pretty sure some Chinese had a...



defence.pk

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## Beast

zhxy said:


> Your lie skills are very good
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion
> 
> 
> Ok, ... in a much miniaturised variant and clearly marked as being FAKE! It simply makes no sense to put the PAF flag on the inner side of the tail fin and its angle/position is also not correct. And finally the colour of the inner side does not fit! As such I'm pretty sure some Chinese had a...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


I don't think you can claim 涡轮叶片for WS-10C as non strategic. Remember u provided the import data and try to claim its for WS-10C.

And US or EU will never approved any military grade fan blade to be exported to China. So who is lying?


----------



## zhxy

Beast said:


> I don't think you can claim 涡轮叶片for WS-10C as non strategic. Remember u provided the import data and try to claim its for WS-10C.



Proof?



Beast said:


> And US or EU will never approved any military grade fan blade to be exported to China. So who is lying?


Can you provide evidence "I used to declare the United States and the EU to export military grade fan blade to China"?


----------



## Beast

zhxy said:


> Proof?
> 
> 
> Can you provide evidence "I used to declare the United States and the EU to export military grade fan blade to China"?


Post in thread 'PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion' https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-j-10c-news-updates-and-discussion.736569/post-13597372

You post is just now and u try deny it?

Do u stated from that post which component is exactly for which area? Then u try to claim this is your proof for WS-10c used imported parts.

Did u say 涡轮叶片 is not for WS-10C? No.. so? Now u try to claim all the while it's not about strategic components imported for WS-10C engine....

If u do not agree fan blade is strategic components or easily replacement. You can stop talking in this thread...


----------



## zhxy

Beast said:


> Post in thread 'PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion' https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-j-10c-news-updates-and-discussion.736569/post-13597372
> 
> You post is just now and u try deny it?



Lol

It is customs data.

You ask the actual data and I provide it

Don't forget, I wrote before.


zhxy said:


> *- Imported components are not important strategic components, it can be replaced*


Or you do not have a readability



Beast said:


> That is not the point, he claim critical parts of WS-10C is still rely on imports. Not simple replacable parts or material.



Now, you can provide evidence _"I used to declare Critical Parts of WS-10C Is Still Rely On Imports. Not Simple Replacable Parts Or Material"_?



Beast said:


> Did u say 涡轮叶片 is not for WS-10C? No.. so? Now u try to claim all the while it's not about strategic components imported for WS-10C engine....
> 
> If u do not agree fan blade is strategic components or easily replacement. You can stop talking in this thread...



Can you provide proof and* quote: "*_My comment says "涡轮 叶片" does not matter and China is importing "涡轮 叶片" from abroad" ? _

Or it happens in your imagination.


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## lcloo

This 100% or not 100% arguement is getting boring.

If an equipment is 99.9999% made in China, it should be considered as 100% made in China.

On the other hand, there is no such thing as 100.000000000% "made in so and so country" product. Example if an aircraft's aluminium raw material is from a foreign country, then the cost of mining, crude ore shipping etc have foreign costs, thus no matter how much value is added on turning the aluminiun metal to a component, it still contain foreign costs.

However, 100% criteria should discard long lines of decimals. Thus China's claim on 100% domestic content is valid, despite of 0.000001% or 0.000009% non-Chinese cost.

So please stop these to n fro boring "I am right you are wrong" arguement.

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## Beast

lcloo said:


> This 100% or not 100% arguement is getting boring.
> 
> If an equipment is 99.9999% made in China, it should be considered as 100% made in China.
> 
> On the other hand, there is no such thing as 100.000000000% "made in so and so country" product. Example if an aircraft's aluminium raw material is from a foreign country, then the cost of mining, crude ore shipping etc have foreign costs, thus no matter how much value is added on turning the aluminiun metal to a component, it still contain foreign costs.
> 
> However, 100% criteria should discard long lines of decimals. Thus China's claim on 100% domestic content is valid, despite of 0.000001% or 0.000009% non-Chinese cost.
> 
> So please stop these to n fro boring "I am right you are wrong" arguement.


I agree but somebody take even 0.0001% not made in China as core issue of not qualify as 100% made in China.

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## Ghessan

mods please take care of discussion going don't know where

ok! i resolve the issue ... JP-1A is imported 

and it is no body's fault so @Beast @zhxy please let the planes land

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## jaybird

Arguing about whether WS-10A-B-C is 100% Made in China is petty. As long as China can still made WS-10 engines in house without the fear of being sanctioned by another country than is good enough. So what if maybe some non crucial component parts are imported due to financial reason. If you have the ability to replace those parts with made in China parts when needed than "100%" or not is just semantics.

Don't you think it will be funny if China declared F-35 is not 100% made in America because it used some screw and rare earth metals from China? China recently sanctions Lockheed, Raytheon over Taiwan arms sales. It will probably cost U.S more money to build future F-35, but it won't be able to stop U.S because it's replaceable, just more expensive to build only. Same logic with WS-10 engines.

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## Beast

zhxy said:


> LOL-LOL-LOL


I think you misunderstood my point. Did I say 100% made in China meaning all components including screw are made in China? If u think even a screw need to be made in China to qualify as 100% made in China then F-35 should not consider one as 100% made in USA.









US put China-made parts in F-35 fighter program


The Pentagon waived laws banning Chinese-built components on US weapons to keep the F-35 fighter program on track in 2012 and 2013, a report said.




www.google.com





But seriously, foreign imported component for aircraft are usually very expensive. I doubt import actually cost less compare to long run of made in China.

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## SQ8

Gentlemen - I don’t think it matters that much if a percentage of components in the aircraft are foriegn so long as free access is available to them and the weapon system in a whole works. 
Today a Chinese J-10 can shoot at any enemy jet without a problem regardless of whether it is 100% Chinese or 85%.
@zhxy @Beast you have made your arguments and now they are in circles so please take it elsewhere.

P.S … I think we have had enough humor regarding when the aircraft will be in Pakistan. We know that they will be in the flypast and that means they will be in Pakistan in less than 21 days.

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## Bilal.

SQ8 said:


> P.S
> 
> I think we have had enough humor on when they will arrive and spent pointless speculation points just trying to keep busy.
> We have video statements on them being here in time for the 23rd March flypast.. that is in 21 days which gives them enough time to land in Pakistan.


I think flying on 23 March is irrelevant now. The whole point was getting the confirmation that indeed PAF is getting J10Cs which by now is already pretty much confirmed.

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## Deino

Dreamer. said:


> Nobody asked for this picture. I THINK he was asking for the three J-10 pics you claimed to have.




Oh, then sorry for the misunderstanding … but those were already posted a few minutes later.

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## Chak Bamu

Bouillon is in Belgium. Please delete the pic. It is misleading.

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## Vortex

Iceman2 said:


> View attachment 820070
> 
> Sometime shared this on Twitter yesterday


What is this ? And what Belgium has to do with J10 ?


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## Princeps Senatus

Iceman2 said:


> View attachment 820070
> 
> Sometime shared this on Twitter yesterday


Belgian F-16s


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## cssniper

It seems no more photos updated today?


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## siegecrossbow

jaybird said:


> Arguing about whether WS-10A-B-C is 100% Made in China is petty. As long as China can still made WS-10 engines in house without the fear of being sanctioned by another country than is good enough. So what if maybe some non crucial component parts are imported due to financial reason. If you have the ability to replace those parts with made in China parts when needed than "100%" or not is just semantics.
> 
> Don't you think it will be funny if China declared F-35 is not 100% made in America because it used some screw and rare earth metals from China? China recently sanctions Lockheed, Raytheon over Taiwan arms sales. It will probably cost U.S more money to build future F-35, but it won't be able to stop U.S because it's replaceable, just more expensive to build only. Same logic with WS-10 engines.



Not just screws and rare earth metal. Electronic components and possibly semi-conductor as well.

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## syed_yusuf

How much qualitative impact does the induction of j10cp has on over all PAF operational and response capabilities

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## The Terminator

Deino said:


> I haven't seen a clear confirmation, but IMO it makes no sense to delete it ... so IMO it has one on both sides.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact there is NO information about the exact designation ... maybe @tphuang , @Beast and @siegecrossbow know more!?


Ok just forget the designation. Are there any pictures, brochures, specs, or some clear images of the J-10C with open radome so we can see the AESA radar. Plz share the info whatever is available for J-10 radars.

We have much more info available in the public domain but J-10 still appears to be a mystic machine shrouded under the covers of secrecy even after it's already been exported to the PAF.


----------



## Deino

The Terminator said:


> Ok just forget the designation. Are there any pictures, brochures, specs, or some clear images of the J-10C with open radome so we can see the AESA radar. Plz share the info whatever is available for J-10 radars.
> 
> We have much more info available in the public domain but J-10 still appears to be a mystic machine shrouded under the covers of secrecy even after it's already been exported to the PAF.




In fact, this is *ALL *I have  










But for the J-10C only this:

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## The Terminator

syed_yusuf said:


> How much qualitative impact does the induction of j10cp has on over all PAF operational and response capabilities


The impact would be significant. J-10CP is comparable in performance to the best Europe has to offer. The only downside of J-10 is not enough options when it comes to ground attack capabilities.

Now J-10C would be the tio of the spear of PAF's air superiority role. JF-17 Block 3 working in tandem would be the workhorse and better in certain aspects to the current F-16s. And F-16s would comfortably sit behind and enjoy the rest of it's time in the PAF, a really potent fighter but no longer the first line of defense for Pakistan. That's how much impact the year 2022 would make in PAF's fleet composition.

PLAAF mostly uses it as an air superiority fighter because they have a lot of flankers and dedicated fighter bombers to carryout the ground attacks. But it could always be enhanced to be a great all round Omni role fighter jet. I am pretty optimistic if PAF inducts them in great numbers, they would like to integrate a lot more munitions to this jet to increase its multirole capabilities. JF-17's potential to evolve seems to be bottlenecking due to it's inherent smaller size but J-10 has much more potential to evolve into the best 4++ Gen fighter.

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## White privilege

Which anti radiation missile would be used with the J-10??


----------



## messiach

araz said:


> So what you are implying is that thd TOT might help in evolving the engines that we have currently got ie RD93s.
> 
> A


We will talk about it in the NGFA thread.

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## Readerdefence

Beast said:


> KLJ-10A radar , from top to bottom, 1.5 gen, 2nd gen and 3rd gen.
> 
> View attachment 819981


Hi Beast any futures across 1 to 3 generation if possible to mention here and the picture posted by siegecrossbow looks like 3 generation 
thank you


----------



## The Terminator

Beast said:


> No doubt J-10C is 100% produced in China including even raw material source. Rare earth from China and even chips used on it , is loongson domestic design and domesric fabricated chips for military used. Composite are made in China, China proven to produced even grade TS-100 one.
> 
> China has the most complete supply chain ever recorded in history.


But some of the food that assembly workers eat and the fuel they use to commute is most probably imported from other countries 😜



Beast said:


> KLJ-10A radar , from top to bottom, 1.5 gen, 2nd gen and 3rd gen.
> 
> View attachment 819981


That's an old pic 😔. Why you people have to be so secretive! It's not even the cutting edge/ top of the line fighter in Chinese inventory, that's the J-20.

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## The Terminator

The Eagle said:


> Video shows 3 phased AESA KLJ-7A as well. Was it just a random mention or related to both jets in question?
> Regards,


Do you have the video, where a Chinese representative explains about 3 different antenna configurations of the KLJ-7A radar in an expo and says that one of them is selected by an export customer. 

I can't find that video now. Been trying to find that for a couple of days.

Thanks


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## Iron Shrappenel

syed_yusuf said:


> How much qualitative impact does the induction of j10cp has on over all PAF operational and response capabilities


Very much


----------



## The Terminator

*The topic of this thread isn't about how indigenous the J-10 is 🤔  or how much Chinese a Chinese jet fighter is! Come on man just chill.

Let's agree to disagree and move on. AVIC has no issue so why you people are fighting over this so furiously!*



SQ8 said:


> Gentlemen - I don’t think it matters that much if a percentage of components in the aircraft are foriegn so long as free access is available to them and the weapon system in a whole works.
> Today a Chinese J-10 can shoot at any enemy jet without a problem regardless of whether it is 100% Chinese or 85%.
> @zhxy @Beast you have made your arguments and now they are in circles so please take it elsewhere.
> 
> P.S … I think we have had enough humor regarding when the aircraft will be in Pakistan. We know that they will be in the flypast and that means they will be in Pakistan in less than 21 days.


The battle of how much Chinese the J-10's engine is! 
I think this thread needs a bit of mopping! Sir

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## Marker

Beast said:


> But seriously, foreign imported component for aircraft are usually very expensive. I doubt import actually cost less compare to long run of made in China.


Here I will solemnly disagree with you. 

Economies of scale is always applicable, whether it is military equipment or non-military equipment. After all both type will be launched in the International market for sale. And price is one of the factors which increases the market share.

China being huge country having largest workforce employed in various sectors, may able to mass produce almost all components of a certain equipment, but we should also appreciate, workforce (*specialize* manpower) is limited. Scarcity of resources at a place compels manufacturers to subcontract certain manufacturing process to other facilities and these could be any friendly international facilities. 

Sometimes the infrastructure and tooling required for the manufacturing of certain parts are not only expensive but also technologically far superior (cannot be shared with other countries) and hence those parts will be obviously produced in such facilities.


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## Riz

White privilege said:


> Which anti radiation missile would be used with the J-10??


Pl-21 i hope so


----------



## Deino

Riz said:


> Pl-21 i hope so




PL-21 is no ARM


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## Riz

Deino said:


> PL-21 is no ARM


AWACS killer i want to say

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

syed_yusuf said:


> How much qualitative impact does the induction of j10cp has on over all PAF operational and response capabilities


The J-10CE is a well-optimized air-to-air fighter with a higher-output AESA radar than the JF-17 Block-3. It now has an asset that can take on practically any current threat in the air. The PAF can also scale its fleet up relatively affordably (compared to competing Western or Russian options).

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## Jammer

Watch the skies tommorow 😜.
Update: Weather delay now Friday

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Jammer said:


> Watch the skies


Yes sky should be clear otherwise no J10


----------



## Deino

Riz said:


> AWACS killer i want to say




This even larger AAM - in fact a ULR-AAM is called PL-21 from what i know, but the J-10C cannot carry it. As it seems, the standard ARM is the YJ-91.










Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The J-10CE is a well-optimized air-to-air fighter with a higher-output AESA radar than the JF-17 Block-3. It now has an asset that can take on practically any current threat in the air. The PAF can also scale its fleet up relatively affordably (compared to competing Western or Russian options).



Are you sure? IMO it is a "well-optimized multi-role fighter!" We only get images with air to ground weaponry so rarely since the PLAAF does not want to show them. The same applies to the J-15, which most often you see carrying either AAMs or dumb rocket pods, but no-one would question it to be a most capable multirole type.

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## shanipisces2002

cant wait to see J10 flying in Pakistan sky also any leaked images of J10C cockpit


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## Dual Wielder

Jammer said:


> Watch the skies tommorow 😜



Make sure You don't blink, else you might miss it..

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## Gripen9

White privilege said:


> Which anti radiation missile would be used with the J-10??


YJ-91 which is the Chinese version of Russian Kh-31 ARM.

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## araz

messiach said:


> We will talk about it in the NGFA thread.


Look forward to your input.
A


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Don't look for the cat's complexion as long as it can catch the mouse....

A single Rafale downed = entire IAF downed = extreme melancholy in Hindutva = if there were F-35s...

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## Ali_Baba

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The J-10CE is a well-optimized air-to-air fighter with a higher-output AESA radar than the JF-17 Block-3. It now has an asset that can take on practically any current threat in the air. The PAF can also scale its fleet up relatively affordably (compared to competing Western or Russian options).



Agree - the 60 odd J10Cs will face off the 36 Rafales on a 1:1 parity with some extra spares, with a first shot advantage to PAF.

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## Dreamer.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The J-10CE is a well-optimized air-to-air fighter with a higher-output AESA radar than the JF-17 Block-3. It now has an asset that can take on practically any current threat in the air. The PAF can also scale its fleet up relatively affordably (compared to competing Western or Russian options).


I always assumed J-10C to have an AESA. But not so sure after reading this thread. 
I am surprised to read here that J-10C has an unknown radar that has no name or designation yet.
Do we know ANYTHING about the radar on J-10C at all? It surely should be AESA since even JF-17 has one but how do we know? And how do we know it's better?


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## GumNaam

Dreamer. said:


> I always assumed J-10C to have an AESA. But not so sure after reading this thread.
> I am surprised to read here that J-10C has an unknown radar that has no name or designation yet.
> Do we know ANYTHING about the radar on J-10C at all? It surely should be AESA since even JF-17 has one but how do we know? And how do we know it's better?


it is always known to have the KLJ-7A AESA radar with side looking TR modules as well unlike the JF-17 which has the KLJ-7A air cooled AESA and without the side looking TR modules. That's about all that I know...but J-10C indeed has an AESA radar, that much is confirmed.

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## Dreamer.

GumNaam said:


> *it is always known to have the KLJ-7A AESA radar with side looking TR modules as well* unlike the JF-17 which has the KLJ-7A air cooled AESA and without the side looking TR modules. That's about all that I know...but J-10C indeed has an AESA radar, that much is confirmed.


What makes you think that? Doesn't seem likely.


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## siegecrossbow

Dreamer. said:


> I always assumed J-10C to have an AESA. But not so sure after reading this thread.
> I am surprised to read here that J-10C has an unknown radar that has no name or designation yet.
> Do we know ANYTHING about the radar on J-10C at all? It surely should be AESA since even JF-17 has one but how do we know? And how do we know it's better?



Pakistan obviously blew money on a completely new airframe with a new engine just to acquire a bird with an inferior radar to the JF-17. Very likely.

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## Dreamer.

siegecrossbow said:


> Pakistan obviously blew money on a completely new airframe with a new engine just to acquire a bird with an inferior radar to the JF-17. Very likely.


You can joke but you should know that I suggested no such thing. I merely asked what do we actually know? Guessworks and conjectures can be infinite. It can be right or wrong but not the same as reliable info.


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## GumNaam

Dreamer. said:


> What makes you think that? Doesn't seem likely.


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## serenity

Dreamer. said:


> You can joke but you should know that I suggested no such thing. I merely asked what do we actually know? Guessworks and conjectures can be infinite. It can be right or wrong but not the same as reliable info.



Because J-10B used either a PESA or AESA (it is still uncertain what type and good arguments made for both with some evidence suggesting PESA and some suggesting AESA) either way it is 100% an phased array type radar.

J-10C 100% uses an AESA and it is a different radar to J-10B. This is not only known but also officially said.

JF-17 Block 3 uses AESA. J-10CE offers AESA. How is it possible that PAF would not buy J-10CP/CE with AESA?



GumNaam said:


>



Again here I notice more members are confused.

J-10C of PLAAF is probably not using side array type!

It is a misunderstanding that is not helped by Millenium's recent videos on J-10.

J-10C does not use the radar that has three facets. It uses a single facet front facing only AESA.

JF-17 block 3 was offered two types from China (and some from Europe) where one is featuring two side facing arrays and front facing one.

There are many, many, many types of AESA fighter radars developed and used by PLAAF and on offer for export and offered to PAF and used by PAF. They overlap but often are unique units. So the confusion is understandable.

We can say for sure that J-10C's AESA is not the same as the two types offered for JF-17 block 3. J-10CP's radar may be the same as J-10C's we don't know.

100% all of these are AESAs. Most likely GaN type AESA for J-10C and unknown for JF-17 block 3 but should be since Chinese radar tech moved to GaN since 2017.

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## Dreamer.

GumNaam said:


>


The radar in the first picture (in the aircraft) does NOT look like the one in the 2nd picture. As I said its not likely, infact you're the first and only one to suggest it.


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## Dreamer.

serenity said:


> Because J-10B used either a PESA or AESA (it is still uncertain what type and good arguments made for both with some evidence suggesting PESA and some suggesting AESA) either way it is 100% an phased array type radar.
> 
> J-10C 100% uses an AESA and it is a different radar to J-10B. *This is not only known but also officially said.*
> 
> JF-17 Block 3 uses AESA. J-10CE offers AESA. How is it possible that PAF would not buy J-10CP/CE with AESA?


It would be a good starting point to compile all the officially known info with sources in one place. That way one can have a referrence point for the discussions. If as you say even J-10B radar is not confirmed till now then it would be a long time till we know about J-10C, so it would help to have some verified basics.


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## siegecrossbow

Dreamer. said:


> You can joke but you should know that I suggested no such thing. I merely asked what do we actually know? Guessworks and conjectures can be infinite. It can be right or wrong but not the same as reliable info.



We'll know soon enough. All I know is that I fully trust PAF's judgment in aircraft acquisition.

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## Clutch

Clutch said:


> Part 1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> .
> Part 2








@serenity

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## MultaniGuy

It is March already. I am looking forward to seeing those J-10Cs in Pakistani hands.

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## serenity

Clutch said:


> @serenity



Ah good he corrected the error.

Yeah JF-17's is rated for 170km on fighter sized target which is exceptionally good for something of that size and power rating.

Typical radar performance of modern era is between 100km and 200km against fighter sized target, benchmarks of US and China both use 4m^2 RCS I think while Russia's is slightly higher RCS measurement and so radar advertised range is in reality a bit lower compared to Chinese or American radar for the same number given. Of course given figures are nearly definitely understated by US and Chinese ones. Customers can test them out themselves to learn what the true range of the product they are importing is. PAF is happy with Chinese radar since JF-17 block 1 and block 3 did not take the Italian AESA and instead selected a Chinese one but I am not sure which.

So JF-17 block 3 claimed range of 170km or so may be understated. If PAF and China would allow them to declare a higher range for public consumption, it would be a blunder for PAF.

The block 3's AESA is almost certainly smaller and lower available power and cooling compared to J-10C's unless the block 3's use GaN and J-10C does not.

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## Chak Bamu

Dreamer. said:


> The radar in the first picture (in the aircraft) does NOT look like the one in the 2nd picture. As I said its not likely, infact you're the first and only one to suggest it.


Are you joking? What confirmation do you need regarding AESA on J-10C? Do you want to smell it, touch it, taste it? Why such obsession?

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## GumNaam

Dreamer. said:


> The radar in the first picture (in the aircraft) does NOT look like the one in the 2nd picture. As I said its not likely, infact you're the first and only one to suggest it.


Tht first pic is the J10B, the second one is claimed to be the radar for J10C. your initial question implied that you didn't know if the J10 had AESA radar at all. Well now you should know that it does. I want getting into technicalities of comparing different J10 AESA radars.

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## aliyusuf

serenity said:


> Yeah JF-17's is rated for 170km on fighter sized target which is exceptionally good for something of that size and power rating.


Please can you make out what is the range being stated for the radar in this image and let us kindly know?


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## siegecrossbow

aliyusuf said:


> Please can you make out what is the range being stated for the radar in this image and let us kindly know?
> 
> View attachment 820290



Greater than or equal to 200KM for typical fighter sized target (I guess 3-5M^2). This is for air cooled radar too.

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## White privilege

Where will they be based?? Please base them at Murid and not those concrete jungles of Mushaf or Kamra...


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## aliyusuf

siegecrossbow said:


> Greater than or equal to 200KM for typical fighter sized target (I guess 3-5M^2). This is for air cooled radar too.


PAF tested this radar also. But, decided in favor of the KLJ-7A for JF-17 Block-3. So it is possible that KLJ-7A may have a range of at least 200km.

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## serenity

aliyusuf said:


> Please can you make out what is the range being stated for the radar in this image and let us kindly know?
> 
> View attachment 820290





siegecrossbow said:


> Greater than or equal to 200KM for typical fighter sized target (I guess 3-5M^2). This is for air cooled radar too.





aliyusuf said:


> PAF tested this radar also. But, decided in favor of the KLJ-7A for JF-17 Block-3. So it is possible that KLJ-7A may have a range of at least 200km.



Wow I thought the Block 3's radar whatever is selected is around 170km range against 4m^2 RCS target.

If they are happy to reveal 200km, that is either typical understating OR intentional overstating to make IAF less sure about how capable Block 3 is. Choices depend on how PAF wants to strategize with the open information data.

200km is very good. Irbis E is roughly 150km to 200km in real world mode, 300km+ in its stated special mode that is just for guiding R-37M but in reality quite useless if there are AWACs cuing and good datalinking. I'm surprised Block 3's can do 200km.

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## aliyusuf

serenity said:


> If they are happy to reveal 200km, that is either typical understating OR intentional overstating to make IAF less sure about how capable Block 3 is. Choices depend on how PAF wants to strategize with the open information data.


It is, perhaps, not a case of being happy to reveal.
But, of logical conclusion. At the time when the Lihua LKF601 was rejected a second time, its range was not revealed to have increased to 200km from a previously announced range of 170km. 

We were all quite surprised that how come it (LKF601) was being considered once again after being overlooked before.

Obviously, they came back with improved specs. But unfortunately for them, KLJ-7A was also upgraded in specs as well it seems.

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## Aesterix

kursed said:


> Once the system arrives in Pakistan, don't expect too many pics of it. Pakistanis plan on keeping it tightly under wraps.





aliyusuf said:


> It is, perhaps, not a case of being happy to reveal.
> But, of logical conclusion. At the time when the Lihua LKF601 was rejected a second time, its range was not revealed to have increased to 200km from a previously announced range of 170km.
> 
> We were all quite surprised that how come it (LKF601) was being considered once again after being overlooked before.
> 
> Obviously, they came back with improved specs. But unfortunately for them, KLJ-7A was also upgraded in specs as well it seems.


Or who knows. The LKF radar may be sitting in the J-10CP?


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## Chak Bamu

aliyusuf said:


> View attachment 820290


I am not sure if we can take these specs on face value & extrapolate them to JF-17's radar to claim that its range is 200 km for a fighter sized target. I would be happy to know if that is true, but I think some healthy skepticism is warranted at this point.

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## aliyusuf

Chak Bamu said:


> I am not sure if we can take these specs on face value & extrapolate them to JF-17's radar to claim that its range is 200 km for a fighter sized target. I would be happy to know if that is true, but I think some healthy skepticism is warranted at this point.


All I have stated is that it is a possibility.


Aesterix said:


> Or who knows. The LKF radar may be sitting in the J-10CP?


Specs of a 1200+ TRM count for the J-10C radar has been around since 2018.

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## Ghessan

antenna missing on PAF J-10 behind IFF antenna:






Millenium 7 in his videos stated (11:00) analysts believe it is used by datalink for PL-15 guidance.


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## Deino

Chak Bamu said:


> Are you joking? What confirmation do you need regarding AESA on J-10C? Do you want to smell it, touch it, taste it? Why such obsession?




Yes I would like to smell, touch and taste it!!!!

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## Vapnope

Ghessan said:


> antenna missing on PAF J-10 behind IFF antenna:
> 
> View attachment 820314
> 
> 
> Millenium 7 in his videos stated (11:00) analysts believe it is used by datalink for PL-15 guidance.


But PL15 is confirmed for PAF.


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## Ghessan

Vapnope said:


> But PL15 is confirmed for PAF.



what i want to say is, it seems there is extensive work demanded on PAF J-10s to PAF requirements, few things may disclosed with the time

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## Deino

From what I heard via a friend in Chengdu, the weather is fine today!

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## TopGun786

Deino said:


> From what I heard via a friend in Chengdu, the weather is fine today!


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## Deino

TopGun786 said:


>




However from what I heard just the moment, there is no "special" event planned for today from the Chinese side.

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## White privilege

Will the _dragons _also bring _mother of dragons _with them??😁🤣

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## TopGun786

Deino said:


> However from what I heard just the moment, there is no "special" event planned for today from the Chinese side.


That's sad. Fingers crossed and mood on ''full impatient mode''.

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## Windjammer

Deino said:


> However from what I heard just the moment, there is no "special" event planned for today from the Chinese side.


Why would Chinese have an event as the aircraft will be departing from there... If anything, the welcome ceremony should be done on their arrivals. 
Chinese done their part when the jets were handed over to the PAF.

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## Corax

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The J-10CE is a well-optimized air-to-air fighter with a higher-output AESA radar than the JF-17 Block-3. It now has an asset that can take on practically any current threat in the air. The PAF can also scale its fleet up relatively affordably (compared to competing Western or Russian options).





Deino said:


> Are you sure? IMO it is a "well-optimized multi-role fighter!" We only get images with air to ground weaponry so rarely since the PLAAF does not want to show them. The same applies to the J-15, which most often you see carrying either AAMs or dumb rocket pods, but no-one would question it to be a most capable multirole type.



I wouldn't say the J-10 is optimised for A2A, it certainly is a very capable A2A fighter with AESA, IRST, and Datalink, but given its Lavi-inspired design, it's actually primarily designed as a medium weight strike fighter, given its large delta wing with thick wing root chord and high internal fuel ratio, and therefore relatively high load carrying capability over long ranges. I personally think this is where the PAF sees its most value, given that they can't upgrade their Viper fleet with SOWs for long range strike purposes.

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## NA71

someone please translate :

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## The Eagle

The Terminator said:


> Do you have the video, where a Chinese representative explains about 3 different antenna configurations of the KLJ-7A radar in an expo and says that one of them is selected by an export customer.
> 
> I can't find that video now. Been trying to find that for a couple of days.
> 
> Thanks



It was during Zhuhai Airshow China 2018. The 3 phased AESA was pitched for export. KLJ-7A is most talked for Thunder. I am redirecting you to the particular thread. I really hope that members shall start searching & go through relevant sections to find everything.

This thread may kindly be left for subjected discussion. Above all, there's no doubt about AESA on J-10C. I don't know what really kicked in for anyone to still question the same. I agree that AESA on J-10C may remain unknown. I do support the secrecy like this. It should be maintained.









JF-17 Block III's proposed AESA Radar KLJ-7A


He means he is crying about the JF-17 block-3 with its AESA Radar will be capable to detect his MKI at such a range..That means the JF-17 will become SUPERIOR to the MKI..hence his word "superiority".. that fits his stubborn and peanut sized thoughts capacities and/or lack of military knowledge...



defence.pk





Then the Chinese Art used as expression about 3 phased AESA radar.

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## Iron Shrappenel

Aanyyy minute now eh boys ...... 
Where's the gentleman who said get your cameras ready

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## Shotgunner51

NA71 said:


> someone please translate :


Here: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-j-10c-news-updates-and-discussion.736569/page-293#post-13596031

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## Trailer23

Iron Shrappenel said:


> View attachment 820392
> 
> Aanyyy minute now eh boys ......
> Where's the gentleman who said get your cameras ready


I don't know anything about that, but can confirm between a week to 10 Days for Induction.


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## TsAr

Iron Shrappenel said:


> View attachment 820392
> 
> Aanyyy minute now eh boys ......
> Where's the gentleman who said get your cameras ready


it depends on lots of factors like weather and schedule of VVIP's

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## Windjammer

It's almost 7.00 PM in Pakistan.
Better put away your cameras and start preparing for Isha Namaz.

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## syed_yusuf

Again how many j10 paf is buying ? Is it 25 or 60 or 120


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## Jinn Baba

syed_yusuf said:


> Again how many j10 paf is buying ? Is it 25 or 60 or 120



No official confirmation. We know nothing - not how many are coming now or later this year or in total.

Figure of 25 was given by Sheikh Rasheed, but even with that we don't know if it's total number of J10, or numbers to receive this year, or just that a total of 25 aircraft (not necessarily J10) will fly on 23 March.

Everything else you are reading is speculation - some of it based on reason, some just people pretending like they know what they are talking about.

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## alikazmi007



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## Dreamer.

GumNaam said:


> Tht first pic is the J10B, the second one is claimed to be the radar for J10C. your initial question implied that you didn't know if the J10 had AESA radar at all. Well now you should know that it does. I want getting into technicalities of comparing different J10 AESA radars.


Your posts are completely irrelevant to mine. You are posting pics of radars proposed for JF-17 whereas I was talking about J-10. You're simply confusing the issue. That radar with side antennas was proposed for JF-17 Blk3, not for J-10C.


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## Deino

The Eagle said:


> It was during Zhuhai Airshow China 2018. The 3 phased AESA was pitched for export. KLJ-7A is most talked for Thunder. I am redirecting you to the particular thread. I really hope that members shall start searching & go through relevant sections to find everything.
> 
> This thread may kindly be left for subjected discussion. Above all, there's no doubt about AESA on J-10C. I don't know what really kicked in for anyone to still question the same. I agree that AESA on J-10C may remain unknown. I do support the secrecy like this. It should be maintained.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JF-17 Block III's proposed AESA Radar KLJ-7A
> 
> 
> He means he is crying about the JF-17 block-3 with its AESA Radar will be capable to detect his MKI at such a range..That means the JF-17 will become SUPERIOR to the MKI..hence his word "superiority".. that fits his stubborn and peanut sized thoughts capacities and/or lack of military knowledge...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then the Chinese Art used as expression about 3 phased AESA radar.
> View attachment 820387
> 
> 
> View attachment 820388
> 
> 
> View attachment 820389




But from all images we've seen so far, the Block 3 does not use the radar with the side arrays.

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## Iron Shrappenel

Deino said:


> But from all images we've seen so far, the Block 3 does not use the radar with the side arrays.


There seems to be a lack of space.... Wonder if the JF-17 could be further modified with side looking modules on the spine or wing tips rather than the nose itself.... Another reason of them lacking would be because of engine output... Third would be too much structural changes to the nose.... Maybe we would see it in the block 4 IF it incorporates a more powerful engine and composites....


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## Dreamer.

Chak Bamu said:


> Are you joking? What confirmation do you need regarding AESA on J-10C? Do you want to smell it, touch it, taste it? Why such obsession?


All three if you please!

Before replying you should have understood my posts properly. I was replying to posts made previously by other users on the subject of radar. You can't understand my post by looking at it in isolation, you have to read it in the context in which it was made to understand the point I was making.

And that point wasn't specifically about AESA or not AESA. It was about secrecy around the J-10 radar, shrouding it in mystery. And why such secrecy? You don't reveal anything about a radar's capability by revealing it's name. We know block-3 has KLJ-7A and that it's AESA. Does that tell us everything about it's capabilities? Infact nothing more than a few generalistic conclusions can be reached from this information. So Why not even this much for J-10?

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## siegecrossbow

Chak Bamu said:


> Are you joking? What confirmation do you need regarding AESA on J-10C? Do you want to smell it, touch it, taste it? Why such obsession?



Wait until he learns that there is no known footage of PL-15 being launched... Things operate, let's say, differently in China. You are lucky to get basic stats on pure domestic equipment and sometimes, not even that.

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## MIRauf

siegecrossbow said:


> Wait until he learns that there is no known footage of PL-15 being launched... Things operate, let's say, differently in China. You are lucky to get basic stats on pure domestic equipment and sometimes, not even that.


He is looking for Factual Data and perhaps not understanding that people like you, Deino and others have been trying for ages to collect data on these things and only just have just enough due to how PLA now operates in secrecy.

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## jaybird

Dreamer. said:


> All three if you please!
> 
> Before replying you should have understood my posts properly. I was replying to posts made previously by other users on the subject of radar. You can't understand my post by looking at it in isolation, you have to read it in the context in which it was made to understand the point I was making.
> 
> And that point wasn't specifically about AESA or not AESA. It was about secrecy around the J-10 radar, shrouding it in mystery. And why such secrecy? You don't reveal anything about a radar's capability by revealing it's name. We know block-3 has KLJ-7A and that it's AESA. Does that tell us everything about it's capabilities? Infact nothing more than a few generalistic conclusions can be reached from this information. So Why not even this much for J-10?


That's the way Chinese military operate, you might never know the designation name of some of the equipment maybe until it was retired from service. 😅

But usually it's different case for export equipment though, unless Pakistan also want to follow the same way Chinese miliatry operate and want the informatiom to be classified.


I was actually looking forward to see more J-10C cockpit pics, and learning more about WS-10B engine's MTBO and service life etc from Pakistan side in the future. Because we've only heard that WS-10 engine is better than AL-31 in performance from the Chinese side, it will be great to see from another party confirming it.


----------



## Dreamer.

I am pretty much aware of how things are in china and the secrecy etc. Since the PL-15 is mentioned...let me say that not only PL-15 but even PL-21 not only have actual names but are advertised. This doesn't mean full details but their existence is advertised.

And the J-10CE is a plane that's being offered for export!

Basic information about Radar without details doesn't affect secrecy. And I know how china is opaque in some matters but that doesn't stop us from commenting about this tendency.



jaybird said:


> But usually it's different case for export equipment though, unless Pakistan also want to follow the same way Chinese miliatry operate and want the informatiom to be classified.


This is the point.



siegecrossbow said:


> *We'll know soon enough. *All I know is that I fully trust PAF's judgment in aircraft acquisition.


@kursed doesn't think so.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Dreamer. said:


> All three if you please!
> 
> Before replying you should have understood my posts properly. I was replying to posts made previously by other users on the subject of radar. You can't understand my post by looking at it in isolation, you have to read it in the context in which it was made to understand the point I was making.
> 
> And that point wasn't specifically about AESA or not AESA. It was about secrecy around the J-10 radar, shrouding it in mystery. And why such secrecy? You don't reveal anything about a radar's capability by revealing it's name. We know block-3 has KLJ-7A and that it's AESA. Does that tell us everything about it's capabilities? Infact nothing more than a few generalistic conclusions can be reached from this information. *So Why not even this much for J-10?*


I suspect the PAF wants to keep the J-10CE's details opaque to keep India's knowledge about it as minimal as possible. However, the PAF wasn't going to induct a legacy mechanically-steered radar or even PESA radar with its new fighter platform. It's not only an issue of it being older technology, but in the current environment, it would be a liability to bring in that specific tech. 

Interestingly, a few years ago, word got out that the PAF asked Russia to equip the Su-35 with an AESA radar, but Russia said it couldn't. Initially, I thought it was some rumour nonsense, but it turns out, several countries asked, but Russia wasn't able to do it for some reason and it lost out on a couple of contracts. However, this tells us that an AESA radar was part of the ASR.

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## siegecrossbow

MIRauf said:


> He is looking for Factual Data and perhaps not understanding that people like you, Deino and others have been trying for ages to collect data on these things and only just have just enough due to how PLA now operates in secrecy.



Just wait for "Fighting and Flying in the Halal Dragon" on Hushkit.

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## Dreamer.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I suspect the PAF wants to keep the J-10CE's details opaque to keep India's knowledge about it as minimal as possible. However, the PAF wasn't going to induct a legacy mechanically-steered radar or even PESA radar with its new fighter platform. It's not only an issue of it being older technology, but in the current environment, it would be a liability to bring in that specific tech.
> 
> Interestingly, a few years ago, word got out that the PAF asked Russia to equip the Su-35 with an AESA radar, but Russia said it couldn't. Initially, I thought it was some rumour nonsense, but it turns out, several countries asked, but Russia wasn't able to do it for some reason and it lost out on a couple of contracts. However, this tells us that an AESA radar was part of the ASR.


The secrecy part I can understand, but one can at lease have a name. As it is we'll just have to refer to it as the "J-10C radar" or the "J-10C aesa". Quite tedious.

Come to think of it, since the engine is called WS-10, maybe the radars is *'JS-10'*?

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## MultaniGuy

Dreamer. said:


> The secrecy part I can understand, but one can at lease have a name. As it is we'll just have to refer to it as the "J-10C radar" or the "J-10C aesa". Quite tedious.
> 
> Come to think of it, since the engine is called WS-10, maybe the radars is *'JS-10'*?


I too am looking forward to this WS-10 turbofan engine.

Russia will then not have any leverage on fighter plane engines.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Dreamer. said:


> The secrecy part I can understand, but one can at lease have a name. As it is we'll just have to refer to it as the "J-10C radar" or the "J-10C aesa". Quite tedious.
> 
> Come to think of it, since the engine is called WS-10, maybe the radars is *'JS-10'*?


IMO if we want to be conservative, we can call it KLJ-7A+ (i.e. same radar as the Block-3, but with more TRMs and/or higher output).

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## Deino

Dreamer. said:


> The secrecy part I can understand, but one can at lease have a name. As it is we'll just have to refer to it as the "J-10C radar" or the "J-10C aesa". Quite tedious.
> 
> Come to think of it, since the engine is called WS-10, maybe the radars is *'JS-10'*?




No, since the current radar in the Block 2 JF-17 is the KLJ-7V2 and the Block 3's radar is the KLJ-7A it seems not unlikely that the J-10C's radar is a development of the original Type 1473G. How this is designated is not known and IMO anything between KLJ-XA or even a KLJ-10A but unlikely JS-10.




Deino said:


> This even larger AAM - in fact a ULR-AAM is called PL-21 from what i know, but the J-10C cannot carry it. As it seems, the standard ARM is the YJ-91.
> 
> View attachment 820156
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure? IMO it is a "well-optimized multi-role fighter!" We only get images with air to ground weaponry so rarely since the PLAAF does not want to show them. The same applies to the J-15, which most often you see carrying either AAMs or dumb rocket pods, but no-one would question it to be a most capable multirole type.




And also interesting for Pakistan, ... Finally confirmed! It was long expected, but until now never seen before: A PLAAF J-10C carrying a YJ-83K AShM.

(Image via @鼎盛大彪 from Weibo)

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## Riz

Tomorrow is Friday , and i love Friday 



Deino said:


> No, since the current
> 
> 
> 
> And also interesting for Pakistan, ... Finally confirmed! It was long expected, but until now never seen before: A PLAAF J-10C carrying a YJ-83K AShM.
> 
> (Image via @鼎盛大彪 from Weibo)
> 
> View attachment 820496


Soon you will see PL-21 with J-10c too

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## Corax

Deino said:


> No, since the current radar in the Block 2 JF-17 is the KLJ-7V2 and the Block 3's radar is the KLJ-7A it seems not unlikely that the J-10C's radar is a development of the original Type 1473G. How this is designated is not known and IMO anything between KLJ-XA or even a KLJ-10A but unlikely JS-10.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And also interesting for Pakistan, ... Finally confirmed! It was long expected, but until now never seen before: A PLAAF J-10C carrying a YJ-83K AShM.
> 
> (Image via @鼎盛大彪 from Weibo)
> 
> View attachment 820496



As I've mentioned before, in my view the J-10C is being tailored for strike purposes for the PAF, especially with SOWs and AShM for maritime strike. The PLAAF doesn't have a need to use the J-10C in the strike role as it has the heavier Flanker variants for its long range needs, but for the PAF, this is the only real viable solution in lieu of not being able to upgrade its Viper fleet for strike, and the JF-17 being a lightweight airframe.

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## Deino

Riz said:


> Tomorrow is Friday , and i love Friday
> 
> 
> Soon you will see PL-21 with J-10c too




Me too, but since we haven't seen a real PL-21 yet even on any PLAAF aircraft, why do you think we'll see it on a PAF J-10C?

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Me too, but since we haven't seen a real PL-21 yet even on any PLAAF aircraft, why do you think we'll see it on a PAF J-10C?



We've seen one on a J-16.


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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> We've seen one on a J-16.




I thought that monster ULR-AAM is called PL-20 and the PL-21 is the a RAMjet-powered AAM? (IMO more a hoax than a real one)

And this large AAM is IMO too large and heavy for the J-10, even more I think it si not yet in service and if it will be exported, is again another question if you mean this one:

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## The Terminator

Jinn Baba said:


> No official confirmation. We know nothing - not how many are coming now or later this year or in total.
> 
> Figure of 25 was given by Sheikh Rasheed, but even with that we don't know if it's total number of J10, or numbers to receive this year, or just that a total of 25 aircraft (not necessarily J10) will fly on 23 March.
> 
> Everything else you are reading is speculation - some of it based on reason, some just people pretending like they know what they are talking about.


IMHO 25 could be either delivered this year or to be delivered before 23rd of March. Because even Sheikh's knowledge about the acquisition is limited. 

There is no way 25 jets of the same model would flypast in the parade. It could be 1 J-10CP or 3 at most flypast in a formation.


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## The Terminator

serenity said:


> Because J-10B used either a PESA or AESA (it is still uncertain what type and good arguments made for both with some evidence suggesting PESA and some suggesting AESA) either way it is 100% an phased array type radar.
> 
> J-10C 100% uses an AESA and it is a different radar to J-10B. This is not only known but also officially said.
> 
> JF-17 Block 3 uses AESA. J-10CE offers AESA. How is it possible that PAF would not buy J-10CP/CE with AESA?
> 
> 
> 
> Again here I notice more members are confused.
> 
> J-10C of PLAAF is probably not using side array type!
> 
> It is a misunderstanding that is not helped by Millenium's recent videos on J-10.
> 
> J-10C does not use the radar that has three facets. It uses a single facet front facing only AESA.
> 
> JF-17 block 3 was offered two types from China (and some from Europe) where one is featuring two side facing arrays and front facing one.
> 
> There are many, many, many types of AESA fighter radars developed and used by PLAAF and on offer for export and offered to PAF and used by PAF. They overlap but often are unique units. So the confusion is understandable.
> 
> We can say for sure that J-10C's AESA is not the same as the two types offered for JF-17 block 3. J-10CP's radar may be the same as J-10C's we don't know.
> 
> 100% all of these are AESAs. Most likely GaN type AESA for J-10C and unknown for JF-17 block 3 but should be since Chinese radar tech moved to GaN since 2017.


Any source or evidence of Chinese GaN radar under production?? 

As far as I can remember, PAF was offered the options from 2 different manufacturers. From which 1 was KLJ-7A which itself had 3 iterations depending upon the antenna configurations.


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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> I thought that monster ULR-AAM is called PL-20 and the PL-21 is the a RAMjet-powered AAM? (IMO more a hoax than a real one)
> 
> And this large AAM is IMO too large and heavy for the J-10, even more I think it si not yet in service and if it will be exported, is again another question if you mean this one:
> 
> View attachment 820517



I don’t think it is too big of a deal weight wise. J-10C could carry fuel tanks/air to ground missiles, which are way bulkier. The real question is whether the radar is powerful enough to take advantage of this missile.

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## TheDarkKnight

Dreamer. said:


> The secrecy part I can understand, but one can at lease have a name. As it is we'll just have to refer to it as the "J-10C radar" or the "J-10C aesa". Quite tedious.


You can send a complaint via PM portal for citizens.

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## The Terminator

Aesterix said:


> Or who knows. The LKF radar may be sitting in the J-10CP?


J-10CP is going to have a better radar than the JF-17 Block-3 that's for sure. Might be based on the same technologies but with greater number of TRMs.

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## TheDarkKnight

Dreamer. said:


> All three if you please!
> 
> Before replying you should have understood my posts properly. I was replying to posts made previously by other users on the subject of radar. You can't understand my post by looking at it in isolation, you have to read it in the context in which it was made to understand the point I was making.
> 
> And that point wasn't specifically about AESA or not AESA. It was about secrecy around the J-10 radar, shrouding it in mystery. And why such secrecy? You don't reveal anything about a radar's capability by revealing it's name. We know block-3 has KLJ-7A and that it's AESA. Does that tell us everything about it's capabilities? Infact nothing more than a few generalistic conclusions can be reached from this information. So Why not even this much for J-10?


PAF hasn’t even officially disclosed the purchase of J10 publicly yet! So the whole aircraft is still an open secret. You can look at the Chinese J10s to get an idea.

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## GumNaam

TheDarkKnight said:


> PAF hasn’t even officially disclosed the purchase of J10 publicly yet! So the whole aircraft is still an open secret. You can look at the Chinese J10s to get an idea.


well, we will know on March 23rd...


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## The Terminator

Corax said:


> I wouldn't say the J-10 is optimised for A2A, it certainly is a very capable A2A fighter with AESA, IRST, and Datalink, but given its Lavi-inspired design, it's actually primarily designed as a medium weight strike fighter, given its large delta wing with thick wing root chord and high internal fuel ratio, and therefore relatively high load carrying capability over long ranges. I personally think this is where the PAF sees its most value, given that they can't upgrade their Viper fleet with SOWs for long range strike purposes.


J-10 isn't optimized for ground strike roles till now by PLAAF. I thinks it's mainly employed by PLAAF as an interceptor with some multirole capabilities. Because PLAAF has a lot of flankers and dedicated fighter bombers to do that task. JF-17 is better optimized for multirole capabilities than the J-10. But it could all change when it comes into the hands of the PAF. 

PAF would love to explore the capabilities of the J-10C platform which it couldn't fulfill by the JF-17, like Air Launched Cruise Missile etc. The induction of J-10C would make our obsolete Mirages completely redundant and they could be easily retired/replaced in the future with no compromises in the capabilities. Same would be the case with the F-16s, they would be dethroned by the J-10CP in the PAF's inventory as a premium fighter jet. And would made the F-16s redundant as well, so less reliant on the US supply chain. I am in no intention to degrade or belittle any of the platforms, they are all top notch in their own right.

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## The Terminator

Iron Shrappenel said:


> There seems to be a lack of space.... Wonder if the JF-17 could be further modified with side looking modules on the spine or wing tips rather than the nose itself.... Another reason of them lacking would be because of engine output... Third would be too much structural changes to the nose.... Maybe we would see it in the block 4 IF it incorporates a more powerful engine and composites....


The expandability of the JF-17 program is now growing to show it's bottlenecks due to it's smaller size. We might get new better munitions, software/EW upgrades, poded IRST etc. but I am not expecting any huge leaps forward at a scale from block 2 to block 3 in the future for the JF-17 blocks.

To attain a revolutionary changes in it's specs, you would have to make changes in the fuselage/aerodynamic surfaces, internal structure to make room for further expansions but it would be entirely a new plane with very little in common with the previous blocks of the JF-17.

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## Jinn Baba

The Terminator said:


> IMHO 25 could be either delivered this year or to be delivered before 23rd of March. Because even Sheikh's knowledge about the acquisition is limited.
> 
> There is no way 25 jets of the same model would flypast in the parade. It could be 1 J-10CP or 3 at most flypast in a formation.



25 by 23rd of this month seems unlikely. The pics "leaked" from China so far (I think) show 6 J10s in PAF markings - serial 01 to 06.

I doubt we would have another 19 in 3 weeks. But I would love to be proven wrong!

Agree about the flypast.


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## Aesterix

The Terminator said:


> J-10CP is going to have a better radar than the JF-17 Block-3 that's for sure. Might be based on the same technologies but with greater number of TRMs.


LKF was a work in progress unlike KLJ.
I wont be surprised if J-10CP gets LKF on steroids.


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## The Terminator

jaybird said:


> That's the way Chinese military operate, you might never know the designation name of some of the equipment maybe until it was retired from service. 😅
> 
> But usually it's different case for export equipment though, unless Pakistan also want to follow the same way Chinese miliatry operate and want the informatiom to be classified.
> 
> 
> I was actually looking forward to see more J-10C cockpit pics, and learning more about WS-10B engine's MTBO and service life etc from Pakistan side in the future. Because we've only heard that WS-10 engine is better than AL-31 in performance from the Chinese side, it will be great to see from another party confirming it.


Lol Pakistan military is also notorious for its secrecy. They induct and operate weapons systems and don't even acknowledge or reveal it publicly for years.

In the case of J-10CP, a minister confirmed it and we have a lot of pictures and videos from our Chinese friends clearly showing J-10Cs flying in China in Pakistani colors but the military is still stubbornly guarding an open secret. Their official statement was to neither confirm nor deny!  as if someone was asking them for a clandestine operation of ISI thousands or hundreds of miles away from its borders

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## The Terminator

TheDarkKnight said:


> You can send a complaint via PM portal for citizens.


Is ministry of defense even listed on that portal!


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## TheDarkKnight

The Terminator said:


> Is ministry of defense even listed on that portal!


Well every one from DM to CAS reports to PM. Otherwise SC is also there for providing relief to concerned citizens.


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## siegecrossbow

Aesterix said:


> LKF was a work in progress unlike KLJ.
> I wont be surprised if J-10CP gets LKF on steroids.



Liquid cooled always beats air cooled in terms of raw performance, always. This is dictated by physics.

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## GumNaam

The Terminator said:


> J-10 isn't optimized for ground strike roles till now by PLAAF. I thinks it's mainly employed by PLAAF as an interceptor with some multirole capabilities. Because PLAAF has a lot of flankers and dedicated fighter bombers to do that task. JF-17 is better optimized for multirole capabilities than the J-10. But it could all change when it comes into the hands of the PAF.
> 
> PAF would love to explore the capabilities of the J-10C platform which it couldn't fulfill by the JF-17, like Air Launched Cruise Missile etc. The induction of J-10C would make our obsolete Mirages completely redundant and they could be easily retired/replaced in the future with no compromises in the capabilities. Same would be the case with the F-16s, they would be dethroned by the J-10CP in the PAF's inventory as a premium fighter jet. And would made the F-16s redundant as well, so less reliant on the US supply chain. I am in no intention to degrade or belittle any of the platforms, they are all top notch in their own right.


By the looks of the configurations for the J-10C that are coming out, it seems like PAF would dedicate it for an air dominance role...

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## Beast

Dreamer. said:


> It would be a good starting point to compile all the officially known info with sources in one place. That way one can have a referrence point for the discussions. If as you say even J-10B radar is not confirmed till now then it would be a long time till we know about J-10C, so it would help to have some verified basics.


JF-17 BLK 3 comfirmed to have AESA and I doubt PAF will go thru the hassle of getting a new aircraft with capabilities below Blk 3 radar.

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## Iron Shrappenel

The Terminator said:


> The expandability of the JF-17 program is now growing to show it's bottlenecks due to it's smaller size. We might get new better munitions, software/EW upgrades, poded IRST etc. but I am not expecting any huge leaps forward at a scale from block 2 to block 3 in the future for the JF-17 blocks.
> 
> To attain a revolutionary changes in it's specs, you would have to make changes in the fuselage/aerodynamic surfaces, internal structure to make room for further expansions but it would be entirely a new plane with very little in common with the previous blocks of the JF-17.


It could be along the lines of the Mitsubishi F-2.... Maybe even incorporating the WS-10.... Long shot but hey... A man can dream...


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## Aesterix

Beast said:


> JF-17 BLK 3 comfirmed to have AESA and I doubt PAF will go thru the hassle of getting a new aircraft with capabilities below Blk 3 radar.


In my opinion he biggest reason for J-10c Purchase was PL-15 .WIth long range missile , a radar capable of Locking on targets at those ranges is a must, otherwise whats the point?

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## Aesterix

Looking to the sky for hopefully seeing the J-10c and seeing nothing.

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## syed_yusuf

Just imagine, paf operating 6 squadrons of j10cp armed with pl15 supported by 10 aewcs and layered air defence. Just imagine 

This free up 2 squadrons of rose 5 mirage 5, 10 squadrons of JFT and 4 squadrons of falcon to totally disscimate Indian army, navy and air force

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## Dreamer.

Deino said:


> No, since the current radar in the Block 2 JF-17 is the KLJ-7V2 and the Block 3's radar is the KLJ-7A it seems not unlikely that the J-10C's radar is a development of the original Type 1473G. How this is designated is not known and IMO anything between KLJ-XA or even a KLJ-10A *but unlikely JS-10.*


lol, you weren't supposed to take the name 'js-10' for the radar seriously. pakistani members know where that name came from, and i'm sure by now you should too.


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## siegecrossbow

Aesterix said:


> In my opinion he biggest reason for J-10c Purchase was PL-15 .WIth long range missile , a radar capable of Locking on targets at those ranges is a must, otherwise whats the point?



I think so. KLJ-7A can’t utilize PL-15 to its fullest potential.


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## Salza

I think there won't be any ceremony anymore. Even 23rd march parade seems unlikely to happen. Pakistan is about to enter a major chaotic phase with opposition vote of no confidence move in the next 3-4 days where Imran Khan is unlikely to survive. Without PM, I don't think so anything gonna happen. IK himself will be extremely busy in the next couple of days where he is likely to meet his MNAs and allied parties to back him up. 

Parade may still happen with President on the stage alone but with no PM and cabinet members, it will be a low limited event.

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## Salza

Upcoming OIC summit will be canceled / shifted from Islamabad as well in case of PM ousted. Strange that none of the poster besides me talked about this scenario. All is not well in Islamabad at the moment. PTI knows it. Let's hope IK survives and we get to see induction at highest official level.

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## kursed

I don't get some folks. When there was first talk of Pak getting J10Cs, the issue turned to it having an inferior engine and no IRST. When both of these were confirmed to be not true, then the discussion turned to the aircraft not having the aerial refueling probe. When that was finally shown in a picture, now the issue is about the aircraft having an inferior radar?

This increasingly sounds like inferiority complex, not some technical discussion. PAF has opted for the most proper solution that upgrades its capacity to take on current and near-future threats emerging from the East. Period.

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## Raja Porus

Salza said:


> Parade may still happen with President on the stage alone but with no PM and cabinet members, it will be a low limited event


As if they ever mattered...

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## siegecrossbow

kursed said:


> I don't get some folks. When there was first talk of Pak getting J10Cs, the issue turned to it having an inferior engine and no IRST. When both of these were confirmed to be not true, then the discussion turned to the aircraft not having the aerial refueling probe. When that was finally shown in a picture, now the issue is about the aircraft having an inferior radar?
> 
> This increasingly sounds like inferiority complex, not some technical discussion. PAF has opted for the most proper solution that upgrades its capacity to take on current and near-future threats emerging from the East. Period.



Cautious pessimism is fine as long as people don't overdo it.

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## Dreamer.

kursed said:


> I don't get some folks. When there was first talk of Pak getting J10Cs, the issue turned to it having an inferior engine and no IRST. When both of these were confirmed to be not true, then the discussion turned to the aircraft not having the aerial refueling probe. When that was finally shown in a picture, now the issue is about the aircraft having an *inferior *radar?
> 
> This increasingly sounds like inferiority complex, not some technical discussion. PAF has opted for the most proper solution that upgrades its capacity to take on current and near-future threats emerging from the East. Period.


I think you are wrong on radar part, no one has suggested it is inferior. Being unknown does not automatically imply being inferior. Being a major asset of PLAAF, and into its third iteration now, J-10 is definitely expected to have the higher end of chinese technology in every area.


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## Flight of falcon

Salza said:


> Upcoming OIC summit will be canceled / shifted from Islamabad as well in case of PM ousted. Strange that none of the poster besides me talked about this scenario. All is not well in Islamabad at the moment. PTI knows it. Let's hope IK survives and we get to see induction at highest official level.




Yes it’s supposed to snow as well…. What nonsense you are saying.

Some members just made up deadLines and timelines of
Delivery without having any knowledge at all. 
Only one thing is certain . J10s will fly on March 23 and that’s all we need to know.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Much awaited induction due to world situation now


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## SQ8

kursed said:


> I don't get some folks. When there was first talk of Pak getting J10Cs, the issue turned to it having an inferior engine and no IRST. When both of these were confirmed to be not true, then the discussion turned to the aircraft not having the aerial refueling probe. When that was finally shown in a picture, now the issue is about the aircraft having an inferior radar?
> 
> This increasingly sounds like inferiority complex, not some technical discussion. PAF has opted for the most proper solution that upgrades its capacity to take on current and near-future threats emerging from the East. Period.


Pakistani mental issues with wanting to be victims one way or the other. Stems from a collective narcissistic nature that wants attention all the time and considers itself brilliance dogged by unfair external factors that allow them to absolve themselves of all blame.

If Pakistanis had a website it would be www.becharageniusbahadurpakistan.mil.pk

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## Zarvan

Jinn Baba said:


> No official confirmation. We know nothing - not how many are coming now or later this year or in total.
> 
> Figure of 25 was given by Sheikh Rasheed, but even with that we don't know if it's total number of J10, or numbers to receive this year, or just that a total of 25 aircraft (not necessarily J10) will fly on 23 March.
> 
> Everything else you are reading is speculation - some of it based on reason, some just people pretending like they know what they are talking about.


Not pretending. These people were the ones who told that J 10 C are coming 1.5 year ago. When no one had any clue. Same groups now says 60 are in first order



Salza said:


> I think there won't be any ceremony anymore. Even 23rd march parade seems unlikely to happen. Pakistan is about to enter a major chaotic phase with opposition vote of no confidence move in the next 3-4 days where Imran Khan is unlikely to survive. Without PM, I don't think so anything gonna happen. IK himself will be extremely busy in the next couple of days where he is likely to meet his MNAs and allied parties to back him up.
> 
> Parade may still happen with President on the stage alone but with no PM and cabinet members, it will be a low limited event.


INSHALLAH Khan is going no where and parade is happening with full might. So please stop spreading disappointments

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## Salza

Desert Fox 1 said:


> As if they ever mattered...


It will be a pretty dumb@$$ idea to stage a parade without a PM



Zarvan said:


> Not pretending. These people were the ones who told that J 10 C are coming 1.5 year ago. When no one had any clue. Same groups now says 60 are in first order
> 
> 
> INSHALLAH Khan is going no where and parade is happening with full might. So please stop spreading disappointments


Inshallah but its fifty fifty chance. Without him, there won't be any fun.


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## Beast

Aesterix said:


> In my opinion he biggest reason for J-10c Purchase was PL-15 .WIth long range missile , a radar capable of Locking on targets at those ranges is a must, otherwise whats the point?


Becos J-10C is much superior than JF-17 Blk 3.

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## Chak Bamu

Dreamer. said:


> All three if you please!
> 
> Before replying you should have understood my posts properly. I was replying to posts made previously by other users on the subject of radar. You can't understand my post by looking at it in isolation, you have to read it in the context in which it was made to understand the point I was making.
> 
> And that point wasn't specifically about AESA or not AESA. It was about secrecy around the J-10 radar, shrouding it in mystery. And why such secrecy? You don't reveal anything about a radar's capability by revealing it's name. We know block-3 has KLJ-7A and that it's AESA. Does that tell us everything about it's capabilities? Infact nothing more than a few generalistic conclusions can be reached from this information. So Why not even this much for J-10?


Why do you want to know the information that would certainly be kept secret? Do you think it is a good idea to flout SOPs & post full specs of all the equipment to make it easy for adversaries to find ways & means to undermine them?

There is a point beyond which lusting after more information becomes counter-productive, even harmful for a country's security. Do you think it is a wise idea to prioritize information above even security?

I am automatically suspicious of anyone who asks too many probing questions about equipment without a stated or established purpose. Its just not a good idea to spill beans for the sake of appearing knowledgeable & some young people have done that in the past on this & other forums.

And yes, I did read all your posts on the subject. I still did not think it was a good idea to look for information that would compromise security. Once a grainy picture of J-10C with its radar dome exposed was shared, it was established with reasonable certainty that J-10C's radar is AESA. It was just bad form to keep questioning whether J-10C has an AESA radar or not; & try to find out its specification, even though it is automatically understood that no one would actually provide credible information about it unless manufacturer is allowed to do so.

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## NA71

Salza said:


> Inshallah but its fifty fifty chance. Without him, there won't be any fun.



Pray for better system rather than personalities ....He is Gem surrounded by vultures ...


----------



## Raja Porus

Salza said:


> It will be a pretty dumb@$$ idea to stage a parade without a PM


President is the head of the state; not PM. So PM doesn't matter on these occasions.
Remember IK missed out last year's 23 march parade because of Corona.


----------



## HRK

Salza said:


> Strange that none of the poster besides me talked about this scenario.


because this is an unlikely scenario


----------



## Salza

HRK said:


> because this is an unlikely scenario


Anything can happen. Let's hope for the best.

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## Deino

Salza said:


> Anything can happen. Let's hope for the best.




Exactly ... and now let's hope for good weather both at CAC and in Pakistan!

Let's keep the fingers crossed!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499637623379353600

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## Riz

HRK said:


> because this is an unlikely scenario


Do you think khan will let the system run if he would removed by these gangsters?? He would never sit quietly he had millions of supporters who are ready to stand beside him like last time

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## Salza

Deino said:


> Exactly ... and now let's hope for good weather both at CAC and in Pakistan!


Weather is good today. We have a live cricket match going on in Rawalpindi in between Pakistan and Australia. Planes will come regardless of anything but I was talking about if govt has plans to make the occasion as some big media event.

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## Riz

Deino said:


> Exactly ... and now let's hope for good weather both at CAC and in Pakistan!
> 
> Let's keep the fingers crossed!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499637623379353600


On there way to home

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499635935134240769

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## The Terminator

GumNaam said:


> By the looks of the configurations for the J-10C that are coming out, it seems like PAF would dedicate it for an air dominance role...


Obviously that's the prime role of the PAF anyways. But I wouldn't be surprised to see RAAD Cruise Missile, SOW and hyper/supersonic AShM being carried by the J-10CP in the future.


----------



## Riz

Most credible source 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499636548891197441

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## Raja Porus

I’m coming home, I’m coming... - Pakistan Strategic Forum | By Pakistan Strategic Forum | I’m coming home, I’m coming home 🐉 Video captured of 6 PAF J-10C entering Pakistani airspace over Gilgit. Thanks to our follower from Gilgit for this...


181K views, 2.5K likes, 827 loves, 184 comments, 855 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Pakistan Strategic Forum: I’m coming home, I’m coming home 🐉 Video captured of 6 PAF J-10C entering Pakistani...




fb.watch





J10CPs over Gilgit.

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## The Eagle

Inbound

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499635935134240769

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## Salza

Riz said:


> On there way to home
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499635935134240769


Ohh yeah. Pakistan Zindabad

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## Iron Shrappenel

Riz said:


> Most credible source
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499636548891197441


Should have gone to Attock.... Damn


----------



## The Terminator

TheDarkKnight said:


> Well every one from DM to CAS reports to PM. Otherwise SC is also there for providing relief to concerned citizens.


Well every COAS who is constitutionally subordinate to a Defense Secretary, provides continuous assurances to whomsoever is the PM of the country that he would retain his PM's office for the time being. So I wonder who actually reports to whom 🤔


----------



## TopGun786

Riz said:


> On there way to home
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499635935134240769


Wow... wow...wow.... Alhumdulillah

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## Salza

Landed by now

15 guests all a sudden :p

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## Trango Towers

TopGun786 said:


> Wow... wow...wow.... Alhumdulillah


The tweets says it's delta wing. Well so are mirages. Just wait

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## TopGun786

Trango Towers said:


> The tweets says it's delta wing. Well so are mirages. Just wait


My heart says they are J-10Cs. Also, no other reason to have escorts with them.


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## Riz

Trango Towers said:


> The tweets says it's delta wing. Well so are mirages. Just wait


J-10c also delta wing


----------



## sneakerspark

The Dragons have arrived

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## White privilege

Did some one check flight radar??


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## Trango Towers

TopGun786 said:


> My heart says they are J-10Cs. Also, no other reason to have escorts with them.


My heart says I am king of siam...doesn't make it a realty brother



Riz said:


> J-10c also delta wing


Oh....now think it through ... come on you can do it

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## Orca16

God is great. Congrats everyone.

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## Areesh

They are J10 not Mirages

It is so obvious

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## SABRE

Salza said:


> I think there won't be any ceremony anymore. Even 23rd march parade seems unlikely to happen. Pakistan is about to enter a major chaotic phase with opposition vote of no confidence move in the next 3-4 days where Imran Khan is unlikely to survive. Without PM, I don't think so anything gonna happen. IK himself will be extremely busy in the next couple of days where he is likely to meet his MNAs and allied parties to back him up.
> 
> Parade may still happen with President on the stage alone but with no PM and cabinet members, it will be a low limited event.


My knowledge of the constitutional laws and procedures are weak but I *think* a vote of no confidence for the PM does not result in the dissolving of the parliament. If the opposition is able to show their majority in the house they can have a new PM elected in no time, perhaps on the same day.

I also think the PM would survive but only after making heavy concessions to his coalition partners. However, the main threat might possibly be within PTI's own ranks.

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## Trango Towers

Areesh said:


> They are J10 not Mirages
> 
> It is so obvious


Can u send a still from the video I can only see smoke trails

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## TopGun786

Trango Towers said:


> My heart says I am king of siam...doesn't make it a realty brother
> 
> 
> Oh....now think it through ... come on you can do it


Brother look closely at video and you will know why I said so.

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## Zarvan

They have landed all thanks to ALLAH

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## capricorn5192

Zarvan said:


> They have landed all thanks to ALLAH


How many of them?


----------



## Iron Shrappenel

Trango Towers said:


> Can u send a still from the video I can only see smoke trails


Download the video...


----------



## Riz

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499643118370623489

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## Areesh

Trango Towers said:


> Can u send a still from the video I can only see smoke trails



It is common sense

Why do you think 40 years old mirages would come from China and that too with escorts?

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## TopGun786

Trango Towers said:


> Can u send a still from the video I can only see smoke trails


There is a diamond-shaped formation of 6 jets at the very beginning of the video and at least 2 other jet as escorts.

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## Trango Towers

TopGun786 said:


> Brother look closely at video and you will know why I said so.


I honestly tried and couldn't make it out. Anyways InshAllah they will come



Areesh said:


> It is common sense
> 
> Why do you think 40 years old mirages would come from China and that too with escorts?


Looool what's wrong with you. How can you tell they came from China... that's the common sense bit????


----------



## Iron Shrappenel

Trango Towers said:


> I honestly tried and couldn't make it out. Anyways InshAllah they will come
> 
> 
> Looool what's wrong with you. How can you tell they came from China... that's the common sense bit????


Download the video and watch it on your phone etc... True it's not clear in the pop up

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## python-000

Deino said:


> Exactly ... and now let's hope for good weather both at CAC and in Pakistan!
> 
> Let's keep the fingers crossed!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499637623379353600


Finally J-10CP Arrived Thanks to All-mighty ALLAH...

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## The Terminator

syed_yusuf said:


> Just imagine, paf operating 6 squadrons of j10cp armed with pl15 supported by 10 aewcs and layered air defence. Just imagine
> 
> This free up 2 squadrons of rose 5 mirage 5, 10 squadrons of JFT and 4 squadrons of falcon to totally disscimate Indian army, navy and air force


6 squadrons are a far cry for the PAF under so much fiscal pressure. JF-17 production should also be maintained. But would love to see those numbers. It would transform PAF into a purely 4/4++ Gen air force. But by that time project Azm should also be in its final stages. Don't know if PAF would be able to fund them simultaneously!


----------



## The Terminator

Chak Bamu said:


> Why do you want to know the information that would certainly be kept secret? Do you think it is a good idea to flout SOPs & post full specs of all the equipment to make it easy for adversaries to find ways & means to undermine them?
> 
> There is a point beyond which lusting after more information becomes counter-productive, even harmful for a country's security. Do you think it is a wise idea to prioritize information above even security?
> 
> I am automatically suspicious of anyone who asks too many probing questions about equipment without a stated or established purpose. Its just not a good idea to spill beans for the sake of appearing knowledgeable & some young people have done that in the past on this & other forums.
> 
> And yes, I did read all your posts on the subject. I still did not think it was a good idea to look for information that would compromise security. Once a grainy picture of J-10C with its radar dome exposed was shared, it was established with reasonable certainty that J-10C's radar is AESA. It was just bad form to keep questioning whether J-10C has an AESA radar or not; & try to find out its specification, even though it is automatically understood that no one would actually provide credible information about it unless manufacturer is allowed to do so.


No one is doubting about J-10's AESA radar. And it's a lame excuse for being ignorant with no basis whatsoever. The name of an equipment and it's basic stats doesn't give away any critical info that you are implying to.

The whole world know that JF-17 Thunder's name is JF-17 Thunder, it has 7 hard points now a chin mounted hard point is added. It has 3 blocks and single/dual seater versions. Can pull this many G's and have this range. It houses variants KLJ-7 radars, Link 17 data link, Aselpod integrated, block 3 would be fully FBW, helmet mounted sights, better EW suite, most probably changes in the cockpit etc etc. Now tell me what info you got from which you would devise a plan to counter it! Nothing but illogical rants

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## Talon

Landing at Kamra

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CarJcXyD7Xv/?utm_medium=copy_link

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## SABRE

Areesh said:


> What would 8 aircraft including 6 mirages be doing in Gilgit?
> 
> Pahar dekhnai niklai hain?



Photo session for Sports Illustrated


----------



## Dreamer.

Chak Bamu said:


> Why do you want to know the information that would certainly be kept secret? Do you think it is a good idea to flout SOPs & post full specs of all the equipment to make it easy for adversaries to find ways & means to undermine them?


I am not against security, I am for it. But the stuff I was asking for does not compromise any security. You obvioulsy HAVEN'T read my posts if you think otherwise.


Chak Bamu said:


> And yes, I did read all your posts on the subject.


You obviously didn't understand them then and need to go and read them again. 
However, since I don't want to keep belabouring the same point, I'm going to leave it at that.

The J-10C's have reportedly landed, so just relax & enjoy the moment.

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## monitor

6 #Pakistan Air Force J-10C aircraft have landed at PAF Base Minhas, Kamra.
Quote Tweet
AEROSINT Division PSF
@PSFAERO
· 1h
We can confirm, PAF J-10Cs are on their way to PAF Base Minhas, Kamra as we speak. twitter.com/psfaero/status…

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## The Terminator

Areesh said:


> What would 8 aircraft including 6 mirages be doing in Gilgit?
> 
> Pahar dekhnai niklai hain?


Maybe to troll Indian air defense 😜🤣🤣


----------



## syedmunib

Hodor said:


> Landing at Kamra
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/tv/CarJcXyD7Xv/?utm_medium=copy_link


This first clear visual confirmation.

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## Ghessan

No call sign


----------



## Talon

😍

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## Ghessan

6 aircraft flying in diamond shape

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## Bilal.

Ghessan said:


> View attachment 820673
> 
> 6 aircraft flying in diamond shape


What are the 2 contrails below them?


----------



## Beast

Hodor said:


> 😍


Triple drop tank. Direct flight without in flight refuel require.

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## Ghessan

Hodor said:


> 😍



these seems to be taking flight back home, 4 can be seen may be more.



Bilal. said:


> What are the 2 contrails below them?



don't know but it seems escort by JF-17 on entering Pak border.

maneuvers are desperate,


----------



## SD 10

Hodor said:


> Landing at Kamra
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/tv/CarJcXyD7Xv/?utm_medium=copy_link


atlast..... Allah o akbar  and thanks to Chinese friends!

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## WinterFangs

What a sight to be seen while I wake up. Finally. Congrats to everyone, especially those who has been glaring at the skies for days.

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## Hassan Imtiaz

MashAllah .. all praise to ALLAH. Delighted

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## Riz



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## TopGun786

Hodor said:


> 😍


3 in the background also.

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## IblinI

SD 10 said:


> atlast..... Allah o akbar  and thanks to Chinese friends!


hoping to see more strategic cooperation between the two countries.

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## Riz

Riz said:


> Tomorrow is Friday , and i love Friday
> 
> 
> Soon you will see PL-21 with J-10c too


My yesterday’s prediction

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## SD 10

IblinI said:


> hoping to see more strategic cooperation between the two countries.


Hell yeah

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## untitled

Ghessan said:


> maneuvers are desperate,


Most likely the escort aircraft are taking snaps from various angles

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## Windjammer



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## Ghessan

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 820676



is it Kamra? from the video clip i thought jets were preparing to fly to Pakistan.


----------



## Windjammer

Ghessan said:


> is it Kamra? from the video clip i thought jets were preparing to fly to Pakistan.


Parachute hatch just above the engine nozzle is open, means they deployed the chutes after landing.

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## Trango Towers

Areesh said:


> What would 8 aircraft including 6 mirages be doing in Gilgit?
> 
> Pahar dekhnai niklai hain?


Clearly you have insider info about mirage movements that no one even in PAF knows..

Do you practice being stupid or does it come naturally. .. no need to answer I think everyone knows.

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## Tehmasib

First batch... Alhumdulliah... Congrats Pakistan.... Batch? 22-101 to 106? 6 birds?

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## bananarepublic

Someone sent me a vid of a large J-10 formation flying over Gilgit-baltistan. 
Mubarak ho

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## monitor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499662411821101057


Pakistan Air Force J-10C, PAF Base Minhas

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## Basel

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499666590790569985

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## Zarvan

capricorn5192 said:


> How many of them?


6 of them have landed for now. More will arrive in coming days.

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## sneakerspark

So six Dragons have landed. 4 of them for 23rd March flypast and 2 of them as standby. Makes sense.

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## princefaisal

Mubarak to all

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## Aesterix

Home



sneakerspark said:


> So six Dragons have landed. 4 of them for 23rd March flypast and 2 of them as standby. Makes sense.


Two as "Stupnee"

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## SABRE

TopGun786 said:


> 3 in the background also.



Can see 4 in total.

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## Vapnope

Congratulations everyone.

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## Windjammer



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## Chak Bamu

Flight of falcon said:


> So you started all this bull shit nonsense and now you are flipping around your claim like a fish out of water ….. really dumb to make a random guess and try to pass it as a truth.


Why you hurtin' bro?

Congratulations everyone. Its a good day today. MA.

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## Tehmasib

sneakerspark said:


> So six Dragons have landed. 4 of them for 23rd March flypast and 2 of them as standby. Makes sense.


1 for entry in 23rd March, 4 for flypast, and may be 1 for Air chief, may be!

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## mudas777

Salza said:


> It will be a pretty dumb@$$ idea to stage a parade without a PM
> 
> 
> Inshallah but its fifty fifty chance. Without him, there won't be any fun.



Am sure IK will do Bungra on the float and share a Chursi kebab with you to satisfy your party mood. Who have to know J 10C is used to ferry Nora before the parade to satisfy your mischievous streak and to claim J 10C battle proven and confirm the operational parameters. 
23 of March is an important date for the Pakistan which party is ruling or missing is not relevant.

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## Areesh

Trango Towers said:


> Clearly you have insider info about mirage movements that no one even in PAF knows..
> 
> Do you practice being stupid or does it come naturally. .. no need to answer I think everyone knows.



Acha bhai lambi nahi karo

It is confirmed now that they were J10

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## mourning sage

The news of losing so many Pakistanis in cowardly Indian terrorist attacks has put a damper on the mood. I cant celebrate these beautiful jets landing in Pakistan when so many Pakistanis just lost their lives. May Allah give us the strength to put these and other war machines to good use and hit the enemy where it hurts them the most.

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## kahu

Congratulations everyone, finally long wait is over. 

May these birds serve Pakistan well


----------



## Big_bud

Bismillah & welcome to our Halal Dragons! Welcome to the skys you'd be gaurding! Wish you the best, you have an important job to do!

Congratulations 🎊 to all Pakistanis! Alhamdolillah, we are still standing tall despite of all difficulties!

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## Engima Chaudhry

Beast said:


> Becos J-10C is much superior than JF-17 Blk 3.


J 10 b ate gripen for lunch in Thai Chinese excercise. And gripen has ps 05/a mark 4 radar.( acknowledged air to air range 220 km( 100% more than ps 05A mark 3=which was 120km)).
My surmise is j10cp aesa is around 250km. 
Let that sink in .

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## Taimoor Khan

*THEY HAVE ARRIVED. *


*10 OF THEM. AT KAMRA.*


*ENJOY!!!*

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## bananarepublic

Taimoor Khan said:


> *THEY HAVE ARRIVED. *
> 
> 
> *10 OF THEM. AT KAMRA.*
> 
> 
> *ENJOY!!!*


I was getting tons of videos from Gilgit. Diamond formation and not just 6, seems like the intentionally flew over the city

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## Taimoor Khan



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## Ghessan

no 🥭 season so how will they do?


----------



## shanipisces2002

Taimoor Khan said:


>


Welcome home you beauty

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## PanzerKiel

Some funny stuff to elevate our mood...

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## Deino

Taimoor Khan said:


> *THEY HAVE ARRIVED. *
> 
> 
> *10 OF THEM. AT KAMRA.*
> 
> 
> *ENJOY!!!*




I thought only 6 arrived?!

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## Salza

bananarepublic said:


> I was getting tons of videos from Gilgit. Diamond formation and not just 6, seems like the intentionally flew over the city


If you have videos other than the posted ones than please share here with us.


----------



## Zarvan

Taimoor Khan said:


> *THEY HAVE ARRIVED. *
> 
> 
> *10 OF THEM. AT KAMRA.*
> 
> 
> *ENJOY!!!*


Who told you about ten. My information says only 6 have arrived so far

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## Bigbang1983

PanzerKiel said:


> Some funny stuff to elevate our mood...
> 
> View attachment 820709
> View attachment 820712
> View attachment 820713




Salam,
Sorry the video is off-topic but it is certainly a very interesting aviation story.

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## Mr.Cringeworth

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 820676


Is it just me or the engine seems a little different then seen previously, AL31 maybe?
@Deino


----------



## Cool_Soldier

It looks they will arrive in batches of 6 to Pakistan.
Hope, Second Batch will arrive soon because it was said by Minister, 25 will flay on 23rd march.

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## The Eagle

Since J-10C arrived for PAF and we have visual confirmation as well.

We still have that thread to continue with rumors......if you know what I mean.... and this thread shall only be used for the subject.









New fighter for PAF Doctrine?


News going around the PAF pages this is from Instagram paf_falcons @Knuckles @WebMaster @airomerix @Armchair @MastanKhan @Hodor @TheTallGuy @StormBreaker @Windjammer @mingle @Bilal Khan (Quwa)



defence.pk

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## Cool_Soldier

At least 25 will arrive before 23rd March

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## TopGun786

International Defence Analysis on fb says
J10CP Official Ceremony will be held on 11 March 2022 at about 1030am.
Let's welcome the Beast.

#J10CP #PAF #Pakistan

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## Deino

Mr.Cringeworth said:


> Is it just me or the engine seems a little different then seen previously, AL31 maybe?
> @Deino




Since it is not the AL-31 but the Chinese WS-10B.... you really missed that part of the discussion?

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## sneakerspark

Tehmasib said:


> 1 for entry in 23rd March, 4 for flypast, and may be 1 for Air chief, may be!


1 can be for entry but I doubt it. They will reveal in a 4 ship diamond formation. 

About the air chief, we didn't get any dual seaters so that won't be happening.

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## Muhammad Omar

Finally JS-10 in Pakistan 😂🤣

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## Jinn Baba

Zarvan said:


> Not pretending. These people were the ones who told that J 10 C are coming 1.5 year ago. When no one had any clue. Same groups now says 60 are in first order



We have been hearing of J10s coming since they were known as FC10 over a decade ago. Block 70 F16s were guaranteed to arrive last year. Sukhois should already have been old news with PAF by now, not to mention Eurofighters. JF17 block 3 was supposed to look very different. So what happened?

Stop believing every "source" you hear. Most of it is total BS. The ones that actually know will not be disclosing it if they are not supposed to 

So, J10 arrival finally happening doesn't make those sources right, it could still just have been a guess - like me saying PAF will get J20s, and if they finally arrive 20 years later, saying I told you so

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## Beast

Deino said:


> Since it is not the AL-31 but the Chinese WS-10B.... you really missed that part of the discussion?
> 
> View attachment 820720


Previous photo has the petal expanded and he mistaken it as AL-31FN. But the short petal is the give away. AL-31FN looks much longer while WS-10C is much shorter.

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## TopGun786

https://fb.watch/bxKcsGDN7Z/


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## mudas777

Akasa said:


> The bird lacks wingtip pylons. Not sure why engineers didn't bother considering this but now it will always be two hardpoints short of its contemporary counterparts like the Rafale or Typhoon.



Don't try to be a kill joy, lets enjoy the occasion of the arrival of the bride and not worry about the dowry. I bet enjoying party is not your strong point. 
PAF bought the plane for a reason and they are not some back street traders, and don't know what they are getting into.

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## V. Makarov

Deino said:


> Since it is not the AL-31 but the Chinese WS-10B.... you really missed that part of the discussion?



Me getting flashbacks of that discussion

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## jaybird

mudas777 said:


> Don't try to be a kill joy, lets enjoy the occasion of the arrival of the bride and not worry about the dowry. I bet enjoying party is not your strong point.
> PAF bought the plane for a reason and they are not some back street traders, and don't know what they are getting into.



You are replying to an Indian-Canadian. He just wanted to take a dump on this thread because he is not in a good mood seeing PAF with J-10C right now.


Congratulations! And may J-10C serve well and protect Pakistan from all threats.

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## Zarvan

Jinn Baba said:


> We have been hearing of J10s coming since they were known as FC10 over a decade ago. Block 70 F16s were guaranteed to arrive last year. Sukhois should already have been old news with PAF by now, not to mention Eurofighters. JF17 block 3 was supposed to look very different. So what happened?
> 
> Stop believing every "source" you hear. Most of it is total BS. The ones that actually know will not be disclosing it if they are not supposed to
> 
> So, J10 arrival finally happening doesn't make those sources right, it could still just have been a guess - like me saying PAF will get J20s, and if they finally arrive 20 years later, saying I told you so


Dude I know my sources. Your problem is even if we get all those thing sill you won't believe it because your problem is you are always ready to live in denial and only believe we can achieve nothing. So no matter how many weapons we get your mindset will remain same. Nothing can change that.

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## Big_bud

Akasa said:


> The bird lacks wingtip pylons. Not sure why engineers didn't bother considering this but now it will always be two hardpoints short of its contemporary counterparts like the Rafale or Typhoon.



It can't have wing tips because the wing tips are curved at an angle, they are not straight. It has 11 hardpoints already, how more do you need? A rafale if loaded fully would fly like a brick and its loadout would be of no use. It would have to dump everything unnecessary when its sees/senses/expects company. 11 vs 14 doesn't make any difference. Both are medium weight category.

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## PakAlp

Congratulations to all Nation. J10CP is amazing jet. The next batch after 25 could incorporate more powerful weapons so its a win situation for the Pak Nation Alhamdulillah.

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## Jammer

Good morning sunshine! The eagle has landed.

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## Deino

Muhammad Omar said:


> Finally JS-10 in Pakistan 😂🤣
> 
> View attachment 820721




A bit larger and brighter ...

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## Trailer23

*My statement on the 1st of January...*














​Congratulations to all the Pakistani [PDF] community.
Thanks to all the Chinese [PDF] community.
And a special thanks to @Deino - for his patience with Pakistani Members  .

As for the Indian [PDF] community - their comments have been redirected to



.

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## Vortex

Mubarak to all my brothers and sisters in Pakistan 😃

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## Muhammad Omar

Such an awesome aircraft to replace MiGs 😍❤️

🇵🇰🇨🇳

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## Jinn Baba

Zarvan said:


> Dude I know my sources. Your problem is even if we get all those thing sill you won't believe it because your problem is you are always ready to live in denial and only believe we can achieve nothing. So no matter how many weapons we get your mindset will remain same. Nothing can change that.



How do you reach the conclusion that I think "we can achieve nothing" or that I live in denial, because I prefer using my own brain rather than believing everything I'm told?

You live in cookoo land and far from reality. Stop being so offended just because some of us don't believe every BS you and your sources spew.

Only rumour I'm willing to believe is Flankers for PN.

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## Aesterix

Mr.Cringeworth said:


> Is it just me or the engine seems a little different then seen previously, AL31 maybe?
> @Deino


Ws-10b Chinese engine.


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## Oruc

Can we call them dragon warrior


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## CombatSurgeon

Anyone knows what's the ejection seat in J-10C? MB or Chinese?


----------



## Trango Towers

Areesh said:


> Acha bhai lambi nahi karo
> 
> It is confirmed now that they were J10


Excellent news. 

Have a nice day


----------



## siegecrossbow

CombatSurgeon said:


> Anyone knows what's the ejection seat in J-10C? MB or Chinese?



Chinese. In fact a while back I shared news from AVIC about how they trained Pakistanis ground crew on how to maintain Chinese ejection seat.

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## Bratva

Trailer23 said:


> *My statement on the 1st of January...*
> 
> View attachment 820729
> 
> View attachment 820730
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​Congratulations to all the Pakistani [PDF] community.
> Thanks to all the Chinese [PDF] community.
> And a special thanks to @Deino - for his patience with Pakistani Members  .
> 
> As for the Indian [PDF] community - their comments have been redirected to
> View attachment 820732
> .



J-10 to agaya bhai, Dusri khuskhabri ka kia bana?

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## emotionless_teenage

Muhammad Omar said:


> Such an awesome aircraft to replace MiGs 😍❤️
> 
> 🇵🇰🇨🇳
> View attachment 820737


What Migs? Whose Migs?


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## Engima Chaudhry

Muhammad Omar said:


> Such an awesome aircraft to replace MiGs 😍❤️
> 
> 🇵🇰🇨🇳
> View attachment 820737


سلسلہ فیلکنیہ سے سلسلہ ڈریگنیہ تک کا سفر.
Welcome to Pakistan
♥ 🇵🇰 ♥

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## Trailer23

Bratva said:


> J-10 to agaya bhai, Dusri khuskhabri ka kia bana?


Parked next door - wall apart.

Its going to be a Double Induction.

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## Deino

CombatSurgeon said:


> Anyone knows what's the ejection seat in J-10C? MB or Chinese?




Chinese

By the way 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499725808667144194

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## Khan vilatey

MashAllah , Bhot Mubarak ho Pakistaniyon The dragons 🐉 are finally in Paksitan

Congratulations to all on the arrival of the J-10C furious Dragon

K



CombatSurgeon said:


> Anyone knows what's the ejection seat in J-10C? MB or Chinese?


Chinese if you search this thread you will find news of Pakistani pilots being trained on Chinese ejection seats

K

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## SABRE

emotionless_teenage said:


> What Migs? Whose Migs?



Probably referring to F-7PG (licensed built MiG-21F-13).

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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> Chinese
> 
> By the way
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499725808667144194



Major breakthrough for both Chinese military aircraft export and turbofan engine development.

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## Khan vilatey

Deino said:


> Chinese
> 
> By the way
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499725808667144194



Wow that seems to be a very fast speed on final, do the dragons have much faster landing speed comparable to the mirages ?

K


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## HydNizam



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## Reichmarshal

DCS take on the j10 arrival in Pakistan

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## TopGun786

siegecrossbow said:


> Major breakthrough for both Chinese military aircraft export and turbofan engine development.


Yes.A major breakthrough. I have read that developing a modern jet engine is even more difficult than developing an atomic bomb or mission to the Mars.
Also it resulted an increase in thrust from 134 KN Russian AL-31FM Series to 140+ KN in WS-10B. The only question now remains of service life of Chinese engine but I am pretty sure that Chinese also exceeded Russia in this category also.

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## siegecrossbow

TopGun786 said:


> Yes.A major breakthrough. I have read that developing a modern jet engine is even more difficult than developing an atomic bomb or mission to the Mars.
> Also it resulted an increase in thrust from 134 units Russian AL-31FM Series to 140+ units in WS-10B. The only question now remains of service life of Chinese engine but I am pretty sure that Chinese also exceeded Russia in this category also.



It probably hasn't exceeded service life of Russia's latest and best but definitely has improved over the original AL-31FN. As the disparity in funding increase in the not so distant future, I'm bold enough to say that China will have Russia beat by 2030 timeframe.

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## TopGun786

siegecrossbow said:


> It probably hasn't exceeded service life of Russia's latest and best but definitely has improved over the original AL-31FN. As the disparity in funding increase in the not so distant future, I'm bold enough to say that China will have Russia beat by 2030 timeframe.


Agree. Hopefully we will also see Ws-15 soon.

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## Aesterix

siegecrossbow said:


> It probably hasn't exceeded service life of Russia's latest and best but definitely has improved over the original AL-31FN. As the disparity in funding increase in the not so distant future, I'm bold enough to say that China will have Russia beat by 2030 timeframe.


Don't worry, with Russia losing money in Ukraine war, you will best them much earlier. 
Compare with USA.


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## Zulfiqar

Congratulations.

Does anyone have a high res picture?

I want to see which helmet is being used?

This question has been plaguing me for so long.

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## TopGun786

https://fb.watch/bx-oVSBy2g/


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

kursed said:


> I don't get some folks. When there was first talk of Pak getting J10Cs, the issue turned to it having an inferior engine and no IRST. When both of these were confirmed to be not true, then the discussion turned to the aircraft not having the aerial refueling probe. When that was finally shown in a picture, now the issue is about the aircraft having an inferior radar?
> 
> This increasingly sounds like inferiority complex, not some technical discussion. PAF has opted for the most proper solution that upgrades its capacity to take on current and near-future threats emerging from the East. Period.


Not only that, but the J-10CE is the first scalable medium-weight fighter the PAF got since the F-16. Funds and other issues notwithstanding, the PAF won't stop at a couple of dozen airframes. India will deal with at least 90 aircraft, possibly more.

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## kursed

Mr.Cringeworth said:


> Is it just me or the engine seems a little different then seen previously, AL31 maybe?
> @Deino


Yes, they baited us with WS-10 then at the last moment before take off switched to AL-31Fs engines. We just found out. *horror*


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Not only that, but the J-10CE is the first scalable medium-weight fighter the PAF got since the F-16. Funds and other issues notwithstanding, the PAF won't stop at a couple of dozen airframes. India will deal with at least 90 aircraft, possibly more.


Exactly. There’s nothing stopping them from upgrading these jets, getting more, without the fear of sanctions. I doubt PAF has enjoyed this flexibility since forever.

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## Iron Shrappenel

Deino said:


> Chinese
> 
> By the way
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499725808667144194


Via your source in Chengdu ?


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## White privilege

Ok new shosha....where is HMD?? Pilot seems to be wearing standard helmets?? So China HMD failed, cheeni maal fail, Rafale jindabad..!!! 🤣😭

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## NA71

Reichmarshal said:


> DCS take on the j10 arrival in Pakistan


DCS gang bhai harami tarha farig betha tha....

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## Iron Shrappenel

White privilege said:


> Ok new shosha....where is HMD?? Pilot seems to be wearing standard helmets?? So China HMD failed, cheeni maal fail, Rafale jindabad..!!! 🤣😭


A black HMD must always be hanging behind an aircraft to keep Evil Eye away.... Nzr e Bad door.

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## Flight of falcon

Chinese with one master stroke have destroyed all Indian ambitions and plans. Where are they going to deploy Rafaels ? To face us or China ? 

Watching Ukrainian and Russian war one can see the pathetic performance of Russian made machines. 

With J10 induction and the video I have seen of J10s flying in a diamond formation over Gilgit we have delivered Indians a clear message ……. We are ready and dare you to try any misadventure ….

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## Iron Shrappenel

Flight of falcon said:


> Watching Ukrainian and Russian war one can see the pathetic performance of Russian made machines.


Hey do you guys remember a while back pantsir was all the hype on pdf.... Glad we didn't get them now....

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## PanzerKiel

NA71 said:


> DCS gang bhai harami tarha farig betha tha....


harami nahin, hamari....

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Iron Shrappenel said:


> Hey do you guys remember a while back pantsir was all the hype on pdf.... Glad we didn't get them now....


Before buying any Russian defense products please consult the Turkish drone experts....

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## alikazmi007

Many thanks to our "All Weather" Chinees friends/brothers for this. Chinese have proven time and time again that they are with us through thick in thin. What a joyous example of it and another milestone in our relationship. 

*Long live China Pakistan Friendship
中巴友谊万岁
Zhōng bā yǒuyì wànsuì*

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## That Guy

Iron Shrappenel said:


> Hey do you guys remember a while back pantsir was all the hype on pdf.... Glad we didn't get them now....


From Azerbaijan to Ukraine, Russians have proven their junk is just that...junk.

At this point, the only thing they have are engines and rifles, and that's about it.

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## Bilal.

kursed said:


> I don't get some folks. When there was first talk of Pak getting J10Cs, the issue turned to it having an inferior engine and no IRST. When both of these were confirmed to be not true, then the discussion turned to the aircraft not having the aerial refueling probe. When that was finally shown in a picture, now the issue is about the aircraft having an inferior radar?
> 
> This increasingly sounds like inferiority complex, not some technical discussion. PAF has opted for the most proper solution that upgrades its capacity to take on current and near-future threats emerging from the East. Period.


The original doubt was sown by some Chinese members citing some “reliable” insiders who cited Pakistan’s desire for lower price which led to removal/downgrading some systems. Since then it has taken a life of its own.

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## NA71

PanzerKiel said:


> harami nahin, hamari....


oh......sorry sir.....🙏

J-10 bhi aa gaey par woh nahein aya jo dawai leyney gaya tha

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## Jinn Baba

Bilal. said:


> The original doubt was sown by some Chinese members citing some “reliable” insiders who cited Pakistan’s desire for lower price which led to removal/downgrading some systems. Since then it has taken a life of its own.



It was also Chinese members / sources who pointed out the missing data link antenna and claimed Pakistan may not be getting full range PL15s.

What they need to think about is - why would PAF go for J10s if not for the additional features it brings

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## Aesterix

Jinn Baba said:


> It was also Chinese members / sources who pointed out the missing data link antenna and claimed Pakistan may not be getting full range PL15s.
> 
> What they need to think about is - why would PAF go for J10s if not for the additional features it brings


On 27th February 2019, IAF own words, their pilots were surprised by the distance at which PAF jets were locking on to them, because Indians were made aware of a smaller range and inferior capabilities of PAF radars and jets , and trained accordingly .
Similar strategy here.

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## siegecrossbow

Aesterix said:


> On 27th February 2019, IAF own words, their pilots were surprised by the distance at which PAF jets were locking on to them, because Indians were made aware of a smaller range and inferior capabilities of PAF radars and jets , and trained accordingly .
> Similar strategy here.



Never drink your own Kool-aid.

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## messiach

araz said:


> Look forward to your input.
> A


Just remind me in 3-4 months.

M.

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## kursed

siegecrossbow said:


> Never drink your own Kool-aid.


Hey, in this instance, I hope they set up a factory of it and even start exporting it after fulfilling internal demand for this Koolaid.. =P

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## baqai

congratulations everyone

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## Iron Shrappenel

That Guy said:


> From Azerbaijan to Ukraine, Russians have proven their junk is just that...junk.
> 
> At this point, the only thing they have are engines and rifles, and that's about it.


Another factor is the countries mostly buying them usually a lot few exercises on handling them... Another would be the meat grinder tactics... That we also have seen in Ukraine and is similar with India to a certain point as well... Throw enough men at a problem and it would get fixed.

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## TaimiKhan

messiach said:


> Just remind me in 3-4 months.
> 
> M.



@messiach wanted to get some idea that WS-10 engine core is based on the russian tech and not on the US as is believed. 

Its written that WS-10 engine core is based on CFM, but what i learned or told is tht actually its based on russian tech, the AL-31 engine tech but with chinese additions or improvements.

Is any truth to it ??

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## Engima Chaudhry

Jinn Baba said:


> It was also Chinese members / sources who pointed out the missing data link antenna and claimed Pakistan may not be getting full range PL15s.
> 
> What they need to think about is - why would PAF go for J10s if not for the additional features it brings


Any idea or guess , how much g's pl10 can pull? . 
If i remember python 4 was supposed to pull 40+ g's ( info in public domain). Since pl 10 is an advanced version based on python , I surmise it to be around 60+ g's . 
Food for thought: coupled with 4th generation heat seeker( meaning 180 degree arc along with iff ) how quickly it would go pit bull, on the merge and chase the target?. ( based on python 5 insane performance on dcs, growling sidewinder channel)?


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## NA71

@Zavraan west say maal kab tak aa raha hy?

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## siegecrossbow

TaimiKhan said:


> @messiach wanted to get some idea that WS-10 engine core is based on the russian tech and not on the US as is believed.
> 
> Its written that WS-10 engine core is based on CFM, but what i learned or told is tht actually its based on russian tech, the AL-31 engine tech but with chinese additions or improvements.
> 
> Is any truth to it ??



The bypass ratio is completely different. How could it be based on Russian engine?

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## GiantPanda

TaimiKhan said:


> @messiach wanted to get some idea that WS-10 engine core is based on the russian tech and not on the US as is believed.
> 
> Its written that WS-10 engine core is based on CFM, but what i learned or told is tht actually its based on russian tech, the AL-31 engine tech but with chinese additions or improvements.
> 
> Is any truth to it ??



It is based on the CFM56 and the project actually began in the early 1980s before China had access to the AL-31. China bought two CFM56II engines outside of any airliner order -- the Pentagon did not stop it. (This was the honeymoon period where China got the RR Spey for the JH-7 too.)

The J-11 project began in 1996 and that was what brought the AL-31 to China. Because the WS-10 had a long development period and because China wanted it in a twin-engine for safety, China of course had incorporate learnings from the AL-31 to get the WS-10 working on a J-11.

Undoubtedly, there were some influence from the AL-31 and Russia because that was the original engine for the Flanker. But to say the WS-10 is based on Russian tech is not true. The project can be pretty clearly traced to the CFM56II bought by China and it started before AL-31 tech came to China.

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## Deino

TaimiKhan said:


> @messiach wanted to get some idea that WS-10 engine core is based on the russian tech and not on the US as is believed.
> 
> Its written that WS-10 engine core is based on CFM, but what i learned or told is tht actually its based on russian tech, the AL-31 engine tech but with chinese additions or improvements.
> 
> Is any truth to it ??




You learned this via what?


----------



## Jammer



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## TaimiKhan

Deino said:


> You learned this via what?



A friend of mine who told me nearly 2 years back that J10s are coming, and then a year back said that pilot training has started and few months back said that J10s are ready but delay from our end and then 3-4 months back said that u gonna see J10s on this 23rd march parade and i even posted here that guys be ready in couple of months for J10s. 

I was told that they are coming with Russian engines, so when i saw WS-10s, i asked again and was told that they are based on russian technology but with improvements enhancements from chinese. 

Then came to know that the initial chinese engine tech was based on CFM tech but midway changed to russian one or kind of a mix of both with getting the best from both but heavily relying on russian core design. 

So that is why asking @messiach as he may have some insight and shed further light on it. 

Till date no chinese official source has clear material or info on WS-10 main design influence and this is the first time that WS-10 engine / tech has been exported to outside of china, thus we may find out what is WS-10s are made from.

And to chinese members, plz dont take my post or query in way as being some kind of an insult to chinese tech or as if i have any issue with it, i have non. I have great respect for china and the way their tech has progressed in last 2 decades. 

I am posting for sharing and gaining knowledge. 

So what if its based on russian tech, chinese always improve and bring better then original ones. That is what matters.

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## siegecrossbow

TaimiKhan said:


> A friend of mine who told me nearly 2 years back that J10s are coming, and then a year back said that pilot training has started and few months back said that J10s are ready but delay from our end and then 3-4 months back said that u gonna see J10s on this 23rd march parade and i even posted here that guys be ready in couple of months for J10s.
> 
> I was told that they are coming with Russian engines, so when i saw WS-10s, i asked again and was told that they are based on russian technology but with improvements enhancements from chinese.
> 
> Then came to know that the initial chinese engine tech was based on* CFM tech but midway changed to russian one or kind of a mix of both with getting the best from both *but heavily relying on russian core design.
> 
> So that is why asking @messiach as he may have some insight and shed further light on it.
> 
> Till date no chinese official source has clear material or info on WS-10 main design influence and this is the first time that WS-10 engine / tech has been exported to outside of china, thus we may find out what is WS-10s are made from.
> 
> And to chinese members, plz dont take my post or query in way as being some kind of an insult to chinese tech or as if i have any issue with it, i have non. I have great respect for china and the way their tech has progressed in last 2 decades.
> 
> I am posting for sharing and gaining knowledge.
> 
> So what if its based on russian tech, chinese always improve and bring better then original ones. That is what matters.



He might've gotten it mixed up. The core design is CFM, even though there are rumors that WS-10 incorporated changes from AL-31. It is very difficult to change the core of an engine. Once you change the core, you pretty much have a completely new engine and you need to start all over.

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## TaimiKhan

GiantPanda said:


> It is based on the CFM56 and the project actually began in the early 1980s before China had access to the AL-31. China bought two CFM56II engines outside of any airliner order -- the Pentagon did not stop it. (This was the honeymoon period where China got the RR Spey for the JH-7 too.)
> 
> The J-11 project began in 1996 and that was what brought the AL-31 to China. Because the WS-10 had a long development period and because China wanted it in a twin-engine for safety, China of course had incorporate learnings from the AL-31 to get the WS-10 working on a J-11.
> 
> Undoubtedly, there were some influence from the AL-31 and Russia because that was the original engine for the Flanker. But to say the WS-10 is based on Russian tech is not true. The project can be pretty clearly traced to the CFM56II bought by China and it started before AL-31 tech came to China.



Project started when CFM engines were obtained but the success stages rolled in when AL-31s or its tech got into chinese hand. 

Projects start and then get shaped during its time period. You start and keep adapting to situations which come your way. 

May be chinese started with CFM, learned from it, faced difficulties, got more knowledge, faced failures, came in new tech, new info, AL-31s came in, chinese studied it, made improvements to earlier design or redesigned the earlier engine design by incorporating both western and russian techs or made something new from these 2 designs and made a better engine. 

What harm is there ?? Main thing is China will soon be having sanction free jet engine industry which will benefit us greatly.



siegecrossbow said:


> He might've gotten it mixed up. The core design is CFM, even though there are rumors that WS-10 incorporated changes from AL-31. It is very difficult to change the core of an engine. Once you change the core, you pretty much have a completely new engine and you need to start all over.


 
With the time taken by chinese engine coming, there can be easily said that whole engine might have been redesigned by changing the main core or having made something totally new. 

So again what harm is there ?? Its Chinese tech now. Better then CFM and must be better in some aspects when compared to AL-31s.

But then again, i may be wrong, that is why asking someone who has inside knowledge when it comes to PAF projects. So far what i have come to know over the years and posted here havent been false. 

But still who knows till we see someone who has worked on the engine or was part of the team.

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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> Chinese
> 
> By the way
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499725808667144194



Ketchup of all the videos already posted.


----------



## waz

Congrats Pakistani and Chinese brothers.

Bruce Lee sends his regards;

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## The Eagle

That Guy said:


> From Azerbaijan to Ukraine, Russians have proven their junk is just that...junk.
> 
> At this point, the only thing they have are engines and rifles, and that's about it.



Lest not underestimate them with their tier 2 deployment. This is not the place to evaluate quality with their performance in Ukraine which is mostly CNN BBC Fox news leading updates. Please keep it away.

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## Dual Wielder

waz said:


> Congrats Pakistani and Chinese brothers.
> 
> Bruce Lee *send his regards;*




So does Mr. Piccolo:

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## siegecrossbow

TaimiKhan said:


> Project started when CFM engines were obtained but the success stages rolled in when AL-31s or its tech got into chinese hand.
> 
> Projects start and then get shaped during its time period. You start and keep adapting to situations which come your way.
> 
> May be chinese started with CFM, learned from it, faced difficulties, got more knowledge, faced failures, came in new tech, new info, AL-31s came in, chinese studied it, made improvements to earlier design or redesigned the earlier engine design by incorporating both western and russian techs or made something new from these 2 designs and made a better engine.
> 
> What harm is there ?? Main thing is China will soon be having sanction free jet engine industry which will benefit us greatly.
> 
> 
> 
> With the time taken by chinese engine coming, there can be easily said that whole engine might have been redesigned by changing the main core or having made something totally new.
> 
> So again what harm is there ?? Its Chinese tech now. Better then CFM and must be better in some aspects when compared to AL-31s.
> 
> But then again, i may be wrong, that is why asking someone who has inside knowledge when it comes to PAF projects. So far what i have come to know over the years and posted here havent been false.
> 
> But still who knows till we see someone who has worked on the engine or was part of the team.



Don’t take it personally, but it does matter since the core being based on AL-31 is false information.

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## MastanKhan

Aesterix said:


> On 27th February 2019, IAF own words, their pilots were surprised by the distance at which PAF jets were locking on to them, because Indians were made aware of a smaller range and inferior capabilities of PAF radars and jets , and trained accordingly .
> Similar strategy here.


Paf had them im their sights and let them escape. They will rue the day for their folly.

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## The Eagle

In Pakistan case, @messiach message of ToT for AL-31FN from Russia could have been intended on the same bases as Chinese had the advantage to improve their own WS-10 engine design. Here, the core might help a lot to study and make progress....indeed, not alone initially.

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## Trango Towers

Muhammad Omar said:


> Such an awesome aircraft to replace MiGs 😍❤️
> 
> 🇵🇰🇨🇳
> View attachment 820737


What migs? Pakistan doesn't have migs


----------



## TheDarkKnight

PanzerKiel said:


> harami nahin, hamari....


Aik ‘r’ sai wo hamari say harami ho gayi. Wah.

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## 帅的一匹

My question is, can J10 c fit WS10c engine in the future?


----------



## Bilal.

waz said:


> Congrats Pakistani and Chinese brothers.
> 
> Bruce Lee send his regards;
> 
> View attachment 820906
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 820905
> 
> 
> View attachment 820909

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## ghazi52

NA71 said:


> J-10 bhi aa gaey par woh nahein aya jo dawai leyney gaya tha



Abee Dawai nahie milli store pur....................

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## The Eagle

帅的一匹 said:


> My question is, can J10 c fit WS10c engine in the future?



Do they need to?

How's WS-10B different to alleged WS-10C? And if that's the actual intended engine, so probably will end up for J-10. Mind you, replacing and installing a new/different engine is not that plug and play thing so presumably, WS-10C is an upgraded or advance version of B so might be the end game.

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## hammad15

Can anyone please inform me, how many J-10s are we procuring. Is the number 25 or 36?
And will it affect the number of JF-17 block 3 variants we will be acquiring?


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## 帅的一匹

The Eagle said:


> Do they need to?
> 
> How's WS-10B different to alleged WS-10C? And if that's the actual intended engine, so probably will end up for J-10. Mind you, replacing and installing a new/different engine is not that plug and play thing so presumably, WS-10C is an upgraded or advance version of B so might be the end game.


Still we can’t exclude this possibility, with 140KN+ Thrust , it enable J10x super cruise capability .

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

*Dragon-10* is much cooler name I agree


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## applesauce

The Eagle said:


> Do they need to?
> 
> How's WS-10B different to alleged WS-10C? And if that's the actual intended engine, so probably will end up for J-10. Mind you, replacing and installing a new/different engine is not that plug and play thing so presumably, WS-10C is an upgraded or advance version of B so might be the end game.



WS-10C is the variant said to be in the j-20.
same physical size, maybe slightly different plumbing, higher thrust, possibly at the expense of shorter life.

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## luciferdd

TaimiKhan said:


> A friend of mine who told me nearly 2 years back that J10s are coming, and then a year back said that pilot training has started and few months back said that J10s are ready but delay from our end and then 3-4 months back said that u gonna see J10s on this 23rd march parade and i even posted here that guys be ready in couple of months for J10s.
> 
> I was told that they are coming with Russian engines, so when i saw WS-10s, i asked again and was told that they are based on russian technology but with improvements enhancements from chinese.
> 
> Then came to know that the initial chinese engine tech was based on CFM tech but midway changed to russian one or kind of a mix of both with getting the best from both but heavily relying on russian core design.
> 
> So that is why asking @messiach as he may have some insight and shed further light on it.
> 
> Till date no chinese official source has clear material or info on WS-10 main design influence and this is the first time that WS-10 engine / tech has been exported to outside of china, thus we may find out what is WS-10s are made from.
> 
> And to chinese members, plz dont take my post or query in way as being some kind of an insult to chinese tech or as if i have any issue with it, i have non. I have great respect for china and the way their tech has progressed in last 2 decades.
> 
> I am posting for sharing and gaining knowledge.
> 
> So what if its based on russian tech, chinese always improve and bring better then original ones. That is what matters.


I can tell you the turbine forward temperature of WS-10A is around 1750K,it’s the same to F110 serises and higher then AL-31FN‘s 1685K.

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## Aesterix

帅的一匹 said:


> My question is, can J10 c fit WS10c engine in the future?


There's one flying with it already i guess? , so why not?


----------



## HydNizam

YJ-83K AsHm

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## Beast

CombatSurgeon said:


> Anyone knows what's the ejection seat in J-10C? MB or Chinese?


Chinese ejection seats, a group of Chinese ejection specialist team were send to Pakistan to train PAF on maintenance and usage of Chinese ejection seat.

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## White privilege

How soon will it be inducted in CCS/ACE??

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## Beast

帅的一匹 said:


> Still we can’t exclude this possibility, with 140KN+ Thrust , it enable J10x super cruise capability .


It is even possible, J-10C in future could fit with WS-15 engine once it got commissioned.

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## Beast

So next time, Pakistan interior minister words can be trusted..

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## Raider 21

White privilege said:


> How soon will it be inducted in CCS/ACE??


A few years. The aircraft and the squadrons will need to go through IOC (Initial Operational Capability)

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## White privilege

Raider 21 said:


> A few years. The aircraft and the squadrons will need to go through IOC (Initial Operational Capability)


Can the squadrons fly operational missions before that?? Simple ADA, DACT exercises may be??

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## Khan vilatey

White privilege said:


> Can the squadrons fly operational missions before that?? Simple ADA, DACT exercises may be??


Yes , we were shooting Russians in 6 months after the f-16s arrived 

K

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## MastanKhan

The Eagle said:


> In Pakistan case, @messiach message of ToT for AL-31FN from Russia could have been intended on the same bases as Chinese had the advantage to improve their own WS-10 engine design. Here, the core might help a lot to study and make progress....indeed, not alone initially.



Hi

@messiach message needs to be understood in the context it is quoted it.

By now, we all know that her one liners are like a puzzle not understood by many.

As much as we enjoy her presence, we need to learn to accept that no explanations are coming most of the time.

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## White privilege

PanzerKiel said:


> harami nahin, hamari....


Paaji aap ne tou _mehram _ko _mujrim _kardia...!!🤣😁

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## MastanKhan

siegecrossbow said:


> Don’t take it personally, but it does matter since the core being based on AL-31 is false information.



Hi,

You have your information and we have our information---. Shall we leave it at that---.


----------



## ahtan_china

TaimiKhan said:


> A friend of mine who told me nearly 2 years back that J10s are coming, and then a year back said that pilot training has started and few months back said that J10s are ready but delay from our end and then 3-4 months back said that u gonna see J10s on this 23rd march parade and i even posted here that guys be ready in couple of months for J10s.
> 
> I was told that they are coming with Russian engines, so when i saw WS-10s, i asked again and was told that they are based on russian technology but with improvements enhancements from chinese.
> 
> Then came to know that the initial chinese engine tech was based on CFM tech but midway changed to russian one or kind of a mix of both with getting the best from both but heavily relying on russian core design.
> 
> So that is why asking @messiach as he may have some insight and shed further light on it.
> 
> Till date no chinese official source has clear material or info on WS-10 main design influence and this is the first time that WS-10 engine / tech has been exported to outside of china, thus we may find out what is WS-10s are made from.
> 
> And to chinese members, plz dont take my post or query in way as being some kind of an insult to chinese tech or as if i have any issue with it, i have non. I have great respect for china and the way their tech has progressed in last 2 decades.
> 
> I am posting for sharing and gaining knowledge.
> 
> So what if its based on russian tech, chinese always improve and bring better then original ones. That is what matters.


It is said that first batch J-10CP/6 pcs had already landed in Bakamra Air Force Base. Good luck
巴基斯坦空军首架新战机降落在巴卡姆拉空军基地，蛮帅的。首批6架，将来会更多有助于地域稳定。#唯美军事图片##武器美学##航空新视野#

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## MastanKhan

kursed said:


> I don't get some folks. When there was first talk of Pak getting J10Cs, the issue turned to it having an inferior engine and no IRST. When both of these were confirmed to be not true, then the discussion turned to the aircraft not having the aerial refueling probe. When that was finally shown in a picture, now the issue is about the aircraft having an inferior radar?
> 
> This increasingly sounds like inferiority complex, not some technical discussion. PAF has opted for the most proper solution that upgrades its capacity to take on current and near-future threats emerging from the East. Period.



Hi,

Be careful of thos members---. They are snooping around---making someone to disclose the truth somehow or the other---.

Be very very careful---the insults will get harsh and pointed as happened with messiach.

Just look at it this way---if we got the lower tier aircraft---then guess what---that is what was needed for the arena that we are in....

But remember one thing---regardless of what any member says---the J10B & C are where they are now because of input by the Paf.

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## The Terminator

The Eagle said:


> Since J-10C arrived for PAF and we have visual confirmation as well.
> 
> We still have that thread to continue with rumors......if you know what I mean.... and this thread shall only be used for the subject.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New fighter for PAF Doctrine?
> 
> 
> News going around the PAF pages this is from Instagram paf_falcons @Knuckles @WebMaster @airomerix @Armchair @MastanKhan @Hodor @TheTallGuy @StormBreaker @Windjammer @mingle @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


I think that thread should now pivot to Project Azm or J-20 induction into the PAF. It's quite certain now that no new 4th gen platform is going to enter service in the PAF. Just bump it up for 5th gen discussion.


----------



## Chak Bamu

TaimiKhan said:


> I was told that they are coming with Russian engines, so when i saw WS-10s, i asked again and was told that they are based on russian technology but with improvements enhancements from chinese.


This is what successful psyops look like. Can you imagine Indian intel yelling this information to their superiors & them in turn complaining to Russians, who would be thoroughly confused about why their denials are not being taken on face value?

A big thank you to whoever passed this information along. This is masterclass.

I want more of this stuff & I do not mind if I unwittingly (& I mean unwittingly because I do not want to ruin my earnest reputation) become a part of it.

As they say in Punjabi "vakhai sajji, te mari khabbi" (Showed the right hand, but slapped with the left).

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## The Terminator

sneakerspark said:


> 1 can be for entry but I doubt it. They will reveal in a 4 ship diamond formation.
> 
> About the air chief, we didn't get any dual seaters so that won't be happening.


I our Air Chiefs like to fly Caucasian planes only 😜

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## arjunk

The Terminator said:


> I our Air Chiefs like to fly Caucasian planes only 😜


They grew up in them


----------



## White privilege

Is acquiring a two seater variant under consideration?? Otherwise Air chief would have to _fly it himself._😁

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## PanzerKiel

White privilege said:


> Is acquiring a two seater variant under consideration?? Otherwise Air chief would have to _fly it himself._😁


You want to say....imagine our Air Chief alone in the aircraft.....

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## MastanKhan

siegecrossbow said:


> It probably hasn't exceeded service life of Russia's latest and best but definitely has improved over the original AL-31FN. As the disparity in funding increase in the not so distant future, I'm bold enough to say that China will have Russia beat by 2030 timeframe.



Hi,

Those numbers are important but not so much---. But the spool up time is extremely important---. 

It is just like high rpm Yamaha engine---how quickly it revs up---that revving up part is the most important part---.

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## PanzerKiel

Taimoor Khan said:


> *THEY HAVE ARRIVED. *
> 
> 
> *10 OF THEM. AT KAMRA.*
> 
> 
> *ENJOY!!!*


Just to correct this as well. Only three landed in the first package. More packages are / were on the way. The buildup continues. Lets see whether people manage to grab glimpses of other packages as well.

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## MastanKhan

Khan vilatey said:


> Yes , we were shooting Russians in 6 months after the f-16s arrived
> 
> K


Hi,

That F16 was a simple aircraft---compare it to your 10th grade class.

The modern day J10 C---writing your first thesis for your PhD---.

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## Deino

Aesterix said:


> There's one flying with it already i guess? , so why not?




There is NONE flying yet … or do you have other information? 
At least the TFV tested is NOt flying the C variant.


----------



## Aesterix

Deino said:


> There is NONE flying yet … or do you have other information?
> At least the TFV tested is NOt flying the C variant.


No, I mistook something for something else. 
However, F-16 had six engine variants from two different companies and as far as I know all are interchangeable. 
Hope Dragons have similarly upgradable .

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## White privilege

PanzerKiel said:


> *grab* glimpses of other *packages*

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## Deino

Interesting size comparison of a PAF J-10C vs an IAF Rafale. (Images via Ali Akbar/SDF and Dhruvashish Vangala from Jetphotos)







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499995114097291267

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## aliyusuf

Aesterix said:


> However, F-16 had six engine variants from two different companies and as far as I know all are interchangeable.


The GE engine variants for the viper came with the so-called big-mouth inlet. So Block-30, 40, 50, and 60 all came installed with the big mouth. The PW engine variants came with the original inlet. That is also why PW-powered blocks have lower frontal RCS.

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## Beast

Pakistan top pilot Omar comment and review for J-10C.

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## Bilal.

Beast said:


> Pakistan top pilot Omar comment and review for J-10C.


Can you or any other Chinese member translate please?

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## Chak Bamu

Deino said:


> Interesting size comparison of a PAF J-10C vs an IAF Rafale. (Images via Ali Akbar/SDF and Dhruvashish Vangala from Jetphotos)
> 
> View attachment 820985
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499995114097291267


One can see that J-10CP sensors are larger (based on size of Nose cone & IRST housing).

Also notice that the curve leading to the empennage on J-10CP is asking for supercruise. As developments progress, I bet J-10CP would become ever more deadly. I find Rafale's lack of ventral fins interesting. Lastly, I bet that being single engined J-10CP would have a slightly better roll performance.

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## The Eagle

Beast said:


> Pakistan top pilot Omar comment and review for J-10C.



Let the Omar speak please......


On a serious note; Chinese needs to understand that not everyone speaks or understands Chinese language. These videos or reporters at-least needs to come up with a solution to send the message across. For example in this vide, she speaks Chinese, the subtitles are Chinese and even Omar is allowed to speak with at-least sub-titles. 

I will urge members that while sharing a regional language dubbed video on international discussion; please make sure that either it has English Sub-titles or written analysis be provided so that readers will at-least have the gist out of it.

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## Princeps Senatus

MastanKhan said:


> Paf had them im their sights and let them escape. They will rue the day for their folly.


There is a thing called ROEs, you can't shoot down enemy aircraft that are in their own airspace and are not a threat to you. If you start firing indiscriminately, it escalates into open war. PAF knows better than the layman.

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## The Eagle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi
> 
> @messiach message needs to be understood in the context it is quoted it.
> 
> Bu now, we all know that her one liners are like a puzzle not understood by many.
> 
> As much as we enjoy her presence, we need to learn to accept that no explanations are coming most of the time.



I will be comfortable as long as long things aren't discussed or at-least never told in details. I am ok with such sort of one liners and all that uncertainty. What really bothers me is the level & kind of internal info being leaked or talked or one keeps insisting about. I don't think she needs an attention like any other brat to score some internet points. She is above immature level. I repeatedly said that no one is bound to explain his/her position unless, finds it ok to do so.



ahtan_china said:


> Bakamra Air Force Base.



It is actually Kamra. The reason why I was saying earlier that things can go wrong and lost in translation or due to misinterpretation.


----------



## HRK

Beast said:


> Pakistan top pilot Omar comment and review for J-10C.


Plz translate or post the summary of the video 


I think he is Khalid Mehmood who was the Head of Marketing of JF-17 and the clip used in this video was recorded when blk-I was displayed in Paris Airshow or in China Zuhai Airshow.





I don't know he is still part of PAC or PAF or retired

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## luciferdd

HRK said:


> Plz translate or post the summary of the video
> 
> 
> I think he is Khalid Mehmood who was the Head of Marketing of JF-17 and the clip used in this video was recorded when blk-I was displayed in Paris Airshow or in China Zuhai Airshow.
> View attachment 821040
> 
> 
> I don't know he is still part of PAC or PAF or retired


That's some BS from one we media,you will hard to find out it's true or not.To knowing what they think of J-10c, asking the pilots directly in the future is a better way .

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## PanzerKiel

HRK said:


> Plz translate or post the summary of the video
> 
> 
> I think he is Khalid Mehmood who was the Head of Marketing of JF-17 and the clip used in this video was recorded when blk-I was displayed in Paris Airshow or in China Zuhai Airshow.
> View attachment 821040
> 
> 
> I don't know he is still part of PAC or PAF or retired


He is Director General, Security (DG Security), AHQ, Islamabad








PanzerKiel said:


> He is Director General, Security (DG Security), AHQ, Islamabad





Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info








I believe he has some kills against the Soviets as well.

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## Signalian

PanzerKiel said:


> I believe he has some kills against the Soviets as well.


Wouldn't mind a few kills against TTP when they visit Isb.

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## jaybird

The Eagle said:


> Let the Omar speak please......
> 
> 
> On a serious note; Chinese needs to understand that not everyone speaks or understands Chinese language. These videos or reporters at-least needs to come up with a solution to send the message across. For example in this vide, she speaks Chinese, the subtitles are Chinese and even Omar is allowed to speak with at-least sub-titles.
> 
> I will urge members that while sharing a regional language dubbed video on international discussion; please make sure that either it has English Sub-titles or written analysis be provided so that readers will at-least have the gist out of it.



Have to say I'm not sure about the authenticity and information from the video without the original sound from the interview. For all we know the pilot didn't say any of that, the one who make the video can put words in his mouth. But nevertheless, rough translation of the interview.

Video was uploaded on youtube on March-31-2021. 

A famous PAF fighter pilot name "Omar" believe the most dangerous opponent from the join PLAAF and PAF Shaheen (Eagle) Air Exercise is the J-10C. In his opinion the J-10C is very impressive in certain situations. Especially adapted at sneaky attack when there is no AWACS support, even heavy weight fighters is having trouble dealing with it. But there are also shortcomings /problems with the J-10C. And he was very impressed with the advanced avionics and EW of the J-16 and the extremely powerful continuous maneuverability of it.

Omar is PAF 16th squadron leader who is a very experienced and skilled fighter pilot. Also holds the longest tenure of flying the JF-17 in the squadron. He also have a very good understanding of both the Eastern and western fighter jets because he flew western fighter jets including Saudi Arabia's F-15SA and Turkish F-16 in the past.

Omar stated J-10C is a very fearsome opponent. It can trace and track targets with just IRST with out turning on it's own radar and undetected by the opponents. So, J-10C can have a first shoot opportunity at it's opponents. And the J-10C radar is very advanced with it's radar signal reflection much smaller than the F-15SA. If can sneak attack enemy fighters if there were no AWACS support from the other side.

It's vertical climb rate and instant speed change is very good second only to F-16 compared to the same generation single engine fighter jets, better than Mirage-2000 and JF-17. It also equipped with PL-15 and Pl-10 and helmet mount target system that it can lock on target at a very exaggerated angle and shoot it's enemy down. It's instantaneous turn rate is also very good. 

He think J-10C can improve on is need more hard-points for BVR AAM. Range is also a problem without conformal fuel tanks, not very good sustained turn rate. if J-10C can't kill it's opponent in the first 30 seconds of the dog fight, then it's a good chance for the opponent to fight back at that time.

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## GiantPanda

J-11B and J-16 had owned Golden Helmets victories over J-10 variants (and SU-35.)

Until the J-10C. Last two exercises were won by J-10C with J-16 coming in second.

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## Enigma SIG

Signalian said:


> Wouldn't mind a few kills against TTP when they visit Isb.


I misread PPP

🤣

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## tphuang

Deino said:


> Interesting size comparison of a PAF J-10C vs an IAF Rafale. (Images via Ali Akbar/SDF and Dhruvashish Vangala from Jetphotos)
> 
> View attachment 820985
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499995114097291267


It's really amusing to me how such a heated debate ruptured in Deino's twitter thread for just posting size comparisons.

I mean they are obviously about the same size despite one having 2 engines. Total thrust is also quite comparable.

As for all the arguments about number of T/R modules and if they are GaA vs GaN, we don't know the exact answer, but it's suffice to say that the number is probably higher on J-10C and it's most likely they use GaA technology.

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## The Eagle

Signalian said:


> Wouldn't mind a few kills against TTP when they visit Isb.



Until, IAF spares some MiGs to TTP.

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## The Terminator

Strife said:


> Can we call them dragon warrior


No it's Haram in China to fight the dragon 😜. They won't let you name that


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## The Terminator

Iron Shrappenel said:


> Another factor is the countries mostly buying them usually a lot few exercises on handling them... Another would be the meat grinder tactics... That we also have seen in Ukraine and is similar with India to a certain point as well... Throw enough men at a problem and it would get fixed.


Russians have pilot training/proficiency issues due to lack of funds for enough flying hours. And their Soviet era support structure makes everything more bulkier, inefficient and cumbersome.

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## The Eagle

So the Rafiqui will have tail chopper Thunders with Cobras, Eagles or Zarrars dragons.

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## The Terminator

Beast said:


> So next time, Pakistan interior minister words can be trusted..


He could be utterly wrong in politics but I never doubted him for this news break. I believed in his eternally firm ties with the Gate#4. He is a nice chap 😜

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## jaybird

The Terminator said:


> He could be utterly wrong in politics but I never doubted him for this news break. I believed in his eternally firm ties with the Gate#4. He is a nice chap 😜



The next time Sheikh Rasheed Ahmad say JS-35 or JS-20 coming. I'm a believer!

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## aliyusuf

The Eagle said:


> So the Rafiqui will have tail chopper Thunders with Cobras, Eagles or Zarrars dragons.


Couldn't it be Cobras and Bandits??

Almost a year ago, a pic of a model J-10 was released showing it to be from the Squadron 7 Bandits







Although that was a pic with better resolution. But, you can still read serial 21-601 and the squadron moniker Bandits.

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## The Terminator

PanzerKiel said:


> Just to correct this as well. Only three landed in the first package. More packages are / were on the way. The buildup continues. Lets see whether people manage to grab glimpses of other packages as well.


Then members should keep a close eye for any J-10C painted in Pakistani flag and carrying fuel drop tanks at CAC 🤩. Catch the bird on the ground and then would be easier to track them all along 😜

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## The Terminator

The Eagle said:


> Let the Omar speak please......
> 
> 
> On a serious note; Chinese needs to understand that not everyone speaks or understands Chinese language. These videos or reporters at-least needs to come up with a solution to send the message across. For example in this vide, she speaks Chinese, the subtitles are Chinese and even Omar is allowed to speak with at-least sub-titles.
> 
> I will urge members that while sharing a regional language dubbed video on international discussion; please make sure that either it has English Sub-titles or written analysis be provided so that readers will at-least have the gist out of it.


IMHO Chinese seem to be the Saudis of the East 😜. They wouldn't speak any other language than their own even if they are fluent in Urdu, French, German and English. 

The only exception is business. When it comes to business, Chinese are one of the most hardworking, persistent and relentless marketeers. They would never let you slip out or go out of their communication radar and would keep in touch with you till eternity in whatever language you wish to talk to speak 😉😊😊. We should learn from them.

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## mudas777

Princeps Senatus said:


> There is a thing called ROEs, you can't shoot down enemy aircraft that are in their own airspace and are not a threat to you. If you start firing indiscriminately, it escalates into open war. PAF knows better than the layman.



Israeli's can do them under the pretext of danger to their aircraft so can we if we had the balls at that time. What India could have done at that time send more aircraft to be shot down or lick their wounds or Modi could have lost the election or wait for the Rafael to show up or wait for the clouds to change colour. They had already launched the raid on our soil previously and we could easily have claimed we stopped them from raiding again. How cowards backed off from launching the Brahamos when some one told them you launch one and you get 3 ballistic lolly pops back.
Now with the arrival of the J 10C what will be their excuse if Rafael saw the dust, it was written in their 5000 old scripts French beauties are too lame?

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## Dazzler

Beast said:


> It is even possible, J-10C in future could fit with WS-15 engine once it got commissioned.


Ty-5B to be exact. As good as PK-16LE.

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## sur

The Eagle said:


> Let the Omar speak please......
> 
> 
> On a serious note; Chinese needs to understand that not everyone speaks or understands Chinese language. These videos or reporters at-least needs to come up with a solution to send the message across. For example in this vide, she speaks Chinese, the subtitles are Chinese and even Omar is allowed to speak with at-least sub-titles.
> 
> I will urge members that while sharing a regional language dubbed video on international discussion; please make sure that either it has English Sub-titles or written analysis be provided so that readers will at-least have the gist out of it.


I think they heard you.
As soon as I opened this video in YT, this ad played:
Help yourself 









For many other languages, an *auto-translate* is available built-in into YT.
Unfortunately that seems to be unavailable for Chinese language!!

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## HRK

PanzerKiel said:


> I believe he has some kills against the Soviets as well.


yes & I think it was MiG-21...


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## The Terminator

jaybird said:


> Have to say I'm not sure about the authenticity and information from the video without the original sound from the interview. For all we know the pilot didn't say any of that, the one who make the video can put words in his mouth. But nevertheless, rough translation of the interview.
> 
> Video was uploaded on youtube on March-31-2021.
> 
> A famous PAF fighter pilot name "Omar" believe the most dangerous opponent from the join PLAAF and PAF Shaheen (Eagle) Air Exercise is the J-10C. In his opinion the J-10C is very impressive in certain situations. Especially adapted at sneaky attack when there is no AWACS support, even heavy weight fighters is having trouble dealing with it. But there are also shortcomings /problems with the J-10C. And he was very impressed with the advanced avionics and EW of the J-16 and the extremely powerful continuous maneuverability of it.
> 
> Omar is PAF 16th squadron leader who is a very experienced and skilled fighter pilot. Also holds the longest tenure of flying the JF-17 in the squadron. He also have a very good understanding of both the Eastern and western fighter jets because he flew western fighter jets including Saudi Arabia's F-15SA and Turkish F-16 in the past.
> 
> Omar stated J-10C is a very fearsome opponent. It can trace and track targets with just IRST with out turning on it's own radar and undetected by the opponents. So, J-10C can have a first shoot opportunity at it's opponents. And the J-10C radar is very advanced with it's radar signal reflection much smaller than the F-15SA. If can sneak attack enemy fighters if there were no AWACS support from the other side.
> 
> It's vertical climb rate and instant speed change is very good second only to F-16 compared to the same generation single engine fighter jets, better than Mirage-2000 and JF-17. It also equipped with PL-15 and Pl-10 and helmet mount target system that it can lock on target at a very exaggerated angle and shoot it's enemy down. It's instantaneous turn rate is also very good.
> 
> He think J-10C can improve on is need more hard-points for BVR AAM. Range is also a problem without conformal fuel tanks, not very good sustained turn rate. if J-10C can't kill it's opponent in the first 30 seconds of the dog fight, then it's a good chance for the opponent to fight back at that time.


So in simple lay man terms the PAF pilot"Omar" said that J-10C's small size and reduced RCS along with passive sensors make it an ideal Assassin (the capability which PAF lacked previously) in the absence of an AEW&C support. It's great in BVR fights with great Radar and EW suite. Has some payload configuration issues though.

Vertical climb rate and instantaneous thrust are impressive. Lacks CFTs. Not so great in WVR close quarter dogfights. But this disadvantage would greatly be mitigated by obviously employing HOBS missile. If employed from both sides then it could most probably mean MAD for both the rival jets in WVR scenarios. Great in BVR and above average in WVR is what the PLAAF's doctrine is, so J-10C fits the bill well for PLAAF.

To be continued . . . .

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## The Terminator

*WVR close quarter WVR almost inside cannon range:*

J-10 isn't that much great fighting in circles rate fight, sustained turn rates because it would bleed more energy than for example the F-16s. 

The inherent design layout of huge a$$ delta wings along with canards causes this shortcoming that when you slightly increase Angle of Attack the delta wings act like huge Air brakes in middle of the dogfight which bleeds energy faster and the jet looses speed or altitude. The same is true for Mirages and other delta wings fighters or as the Russians love to show their flankers dropping from the sky like a leaf.

J-10C would be at massive disadvantage in sustained turn rate dogfights in circle which PAF might love to do so due to their previous platforms tailor made for these tactics. But J-10C could attain superiority in downward spiralling fight where it may easily force the rival jet to overshoot and present it's 6 for a sweet kill. Or in a highly unlikely scenario where the opponent is about to kiss your A$$ pull a pugachev cobra maneuver like the flankers and shoot at the enemy's 6. In both the scenarios you would loose the energy (speed and/or altitude) which could be fatal if the fight lingers on after that.

The huge twin engines of flankers like Su-30 had the advantage of just raw thrusting out of a bad energy state and single engined small jets like thunders would struggle to keep up with them in their sudden power dashes. But the induction of J-10C has also plugged that gap in WVR scenario against the flankers.

That's a brief of what pilot "Omar" might have meant in lay man's term

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## The Terminator

jaybird said:


> The next time Sheikh Rasheed Ahmad say JS-35 or JS-20 coming. I'm a believer!


According to TAI CEO. Fast University with collaboration of PAC/PAF is building TPFX (Turkish Pakistani fighter X, next gen/5th gen). Effectively *fusing the project Azm and TAI TFX in one JV.* And Obviously TAI is the leading developer here, closely working with PAC/FAST University with PAF's input.

It would increase Pakistan's weapon's design/manufacturing capabilities exponentially.






Time stamp: 18:00

Future J-20P or J-35P would complement the Project Azm (TPFX) or would be our insurance policy if God forbid something goes really wrong.

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## Beast

The Terminator said:


> IMHO Chinese seem to be the Saudis of the East 😜. They wouldn't speak any other language than their own even if they are fluent in Urdu, French, German and English.
> 
> The only exception is business. When it comes to business, Chinese are one of the most hardworking, persistent and relentless marketeers. They would never let you slip out or go out of their communication radar and would keep in touch with you till eternity in whatever language you wish to talk to speak 😉😊😊. We should learn from them.


China has a proud history of their heritage. The wording we used now is not much different from almost 2000 years ago. While Persian, Old Egypt wording has long wipe out over the times...

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## The Terminator

mudas777 said:


> Now with the arrival of the J 10C what will be their excuse if Rafael saw the dust, it was written in their 5000 old scripts French beauties are too lame?



The future golden words of Modi: "Agar F-35 veeman hota . . . . ."

Modi hai to Mumkin hai

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## Trango Towers

Princeps Senatus said:


> There is a thing called ROEs, you can't shoot down enemy aircraft that are in their own airspace and are not a threat to you. If you start firing indiscriminately, it escalates into open war. PAF knows better than the layman.


On that day there was war.
When the enemy came into Pakistan they didn't bring roses.
When you fight you fight hard and you punch through the bastard so he knows not to engage you again.
Pakistan missed an opportunity. Had all 9 aircraft been taken out even bollywood would have made movies of PAF legends.
India pilots would forever have feared the PAF.

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## alphapak

The Terminator said:


> The future golden words of Modi: "Agar F-35 veeman hota . . . . ."



Maybe this time he will say "agar Pakistan ke pass J10 na hota ....."

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## Trango Towers

alphapak said:


> Maybe this time he will say "agar Pakistan ke pass J10 na hota ....."


PAF is turning into a formidable force.
Jf17 block 3 ...plus upgrades of block1 and 2 to 3 standard.
F16 block 52 
And j10CP

If we can get numbers India won't dare

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## Raider 21

PanzerKiel said:


> He is Director General, Security (DG Security), AHQ, Islamabad
> 
> View attachment 821044
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 821045
> 
> 
> I believe he has some kills against the Soviets as well.


He retired from PAF military service long time ago. Otherwise his service time would have exceeded Sohail Aman who was close to him in GD(P) course number. He is senior to the current and previous air chief.

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## araz

mudas777 said:


> Israeli's can do them under the pretext of danger to their aircraft so can we if we had the balls at that time. What India could have done at that time send more aircraft to be shot down or lick their wounds or Modi could have lost the election or wait for the Rafael to show up or wait for the clouds to change colour. They had already launched the raid on our soil previously and we could easily have claimed we stopped them from raiding again. How cowards backed off from launching the Brahamos when some one told them you launch one and you get 3 ballistic lolly pops back.
> Now with the arrival of the J 10C what will be their excuse if Rafael saw the dust, it was written in their 5000 old scripts French beauties are too lame?


We are not the state of Israel. They have carte nlanche immunity to do whatever they please with noncompromising support from the US and EU. Comparing Pakistan with Israel is a great fallacy. Secondly, ( and this remains my firm belief) the fact that we had 8-9 of their ACs in our sights andchose to take only 2 out helped our narrative greatly. This was as much a military campaign as it was a narrative build up not only of us responding to an-aggression in a responsible manner but also within the ROEs. Going ape on the IAF may have gotten us more planes as trophies but the narrative game would have been lost and we would have been labelled as aggressors. 8t would have put IA, Modi, and IAF as sufferers of an,aggressive move with loss of lives and equipment. You did not see the aggression in Christine Fiarr's voice. That is a true reflection of the Western/US perception of us. The fact that we acted responsibly and stood within the ROEs gave us justification to respond go aggression on our soil. 
The Indians can only cry over their loss as they have lost so badly on the narrative game that any further aggression from them would not have been possible. 
The other aspect of it was making sure we gave them no grounds to escalate while being fully prepared to do so should they try anything silly. This stopped them dead in their tracks as any further aggression would have made tuem look like hullies along with giving them a bloody nose. They then chose to put their own brand of spin on it to cover their ignominous defeat, something only Indians can do. 
So in all Pakistan earned a lot more out of this episode than a moral victory. They won the war of optics and narrative on a level where the other side could only lick their wounds and not do anything more.
It does not mean tuere will not be a 2nd episode of the same from them. However they are aware that the cost may not be worth the effort.
A

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## Engima Chaudhry

jaybird said:


> Have to say I'm not sure about the authenticity and information from the video without the original sound from the interview. For all we know the pilot didn't say any of that, the one who make the video can put words in his mouth. But nevertheless, rough translation of the interview.
> 
> Video was uploaded on youtube on March-31-2021.
> 
> A famous PAF fighter pilot name "Omar" believe the most dangerous opponent from the join PLAAF and PAF Shaheen (Eagle) Air Exercise is the J-10C. In his opinion the J-10C is very impressive in certain situations. Especially adapted at sneaky attack when there is no AWACS support, even heavy weight fighters is having trouble dealing with it. But there are also shortcomings /problems with the J-10C. And he was very impressed with the advanced avionics and EW of the J-16 and the extremely powerful continuous maneuverability of it.
> 
> Omar is PAF 16th squadron leader who is a very experienced and skilled fighter pilot. Also holds the longest tenure of flying the JF-17 in the squadron. He also have a very good understanding of both the Eastern and western fighter jets because he flew western fighter jets including Saudi Arabia's F-15SA and Turkish F-16 in the past.
> 
> Omar stated J-10C is a very fearsome opponent. It can trace and track targets with just IRST with out turning on it's own radar and undetected by the opponents. So, J-10C can have a first shoot opportunity at it's opponents. And the J-10C radar is very advanced with it's radar signal reflection much smaller than the F-15SA. If can sneak attack enemy fighters if there were no AWACS support from the other side.
> 
> It's vertical climb rate and instant speed change is very good second only to F-16 compared to the same generation single engine fighter jets, better than Mirage-2000 and JF-17. It also equipped with PL-15 and Pl-10 and helmet mount target system that it can lock on target at a very exaggerated angle and shoot it's enemy down. It's instantaneous turn rate is also very good.
> 
> He think J-10C can improve on is need more hard-points for BVR AAM. Range is also a problem without conformal fuel tanks, not very good sustained turn rate. if J-10C can't kill it's opponent in the first 30 seconds of the dog fight, then it's a good chance for the opponent to fight back at that





jaybird said:


> Have to say I'm not sure about the authenticity and information from the video without the original sound from the interview. For all we know the pilot didn't say any of that, the one who make the video can put words in his mouth. But nevertheless, rough translation of the interview.
> 
> Video was uploaded on youtube on March-31-2021.
> 
> A famous PAF fighter pilot name "Omar" believe the most dangerous opponent from the join PLAAF and PAF Shaheen (Eagle) Air Exercise is the J-10C. In his opinion the J-10C is very impressive in certain situations. Especially adapted at sneaky attack when there is no AWACS support, even heavy weight fighters is having trouble dealing with it. But there are also shortcomings /problems with the J-10C. And he was very impressed with the advanced avionics and EW of the J-16 and the extremely powerful continuous maneuverability of it.
> 
> Omar is PAF 16th squadron leader who is a very experienced and skilled fighter pilot. Also holds the longest tenure of flying the JF-17 in the squadron. He also have a very good understanding of both the Eastern and western fighter jets because he flew western fighter jets including Saudi Arabia's F-15SA and Turkish F-16 in the past.
> 
> Omar stated J-10C is a very fearsome opponent. It can trace and track targets with just IRST with out turning on it's own radar and undetected by the opponents. So, J-10C can have a first shoot opportunity at it's opponents. And the J-10C radar is very advanced with it's radar signal reflection much smaller than the F-15SA. If can sneak attack enemy fighters if there were no AWACS support from the other side.
> 
> It's vertical climb rate and instant speed change is very good second only to F-16 compared to the same generation single engine fighter jets, better than Mirage-2000 and JF-17. It also equipped with PL-15 and Pl-10 and helmet mount target system that it can lock on target at a very exaggerated angle and shoot it's enemy down. It's instantaneous turn rate is also very good.
> 
> He think J-10C can improve on is need more hard-points for BVR AAM. Range is also a problem without conformal fuel tanks, not very good sustained turn rate. if J-10C can't kill it's opponent in the first 30 seconds of the dog fight, then it's a good chance for the opponent to fight back at that time.


Agreed to a large extant. But I would doubt the statement about sustained turn rate being inferior. The delta canard layout , coupled with fly by wire addresses that. 
If I remember correctly Lavi fighter of Israel had the same profile and it was out performing f16As in sustained turn rates. 
About the no. Of bvrs. I think 6 is a big number. Four on dual racks and two on twin chin mounts. 
Roll performance would be better than Rafale. The fins below the engine exhaust are there to prevent sliding of the fuselage in maneuvers. F16 had the same problem, so these fins were introduced in f16 .
Regards

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## araz

Trango Towers said:


> PAF is turning into a formidable force.
> Jf17 block 3 ...plus upgrades of block1 and 2 to 3 standard.
> F16 block 52
> And j10CP
> 
> If we can get numbers India won't dare


At least not wothout soiling a lot more dhotis.
A


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## Windjammer

Interestingly the J-10s were escorted by Two F-16s.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500100368709173255


Due to the high altitude of the formation, @Areesh confused the F-16 with Mirages.

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## Engima Chaudhry

Windjammer said:


> Interestingly the J-10s were escorted by Two F-16s.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500100368709173255
> 
> 
> Due to the high altitude of the formation, @Areesh confused the F-16 with Mirages.


Viper welcoming the "sokaan ".
That's interesting.

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## NA71

Trango Towers said:


> PAF is turning into a formidable force.
> Jf17 block 3 ...plus upgrades of block1 and 2 to 3 standard.
> F16 block 52
> And j10CP
> 
> If we can get numbers India won't dare


boss nothing is formidable in modern days warfare


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## HydNizam

On Paper even Rafale, Su30, mirage 2000 
Look formidable but it all comes down to superior training and tactics of PAF




Trango Towers said:


> PAF is turning into a formidable force.
> Jf17 block 3 ...plus upgrades of block1 and 2 to 3 standard.
> F16 block 52
> And j10CP
> 
> If we can get numbers India won't dare

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## Readerdefence

Hi @The Eagle 
can you please let me know why my post been deleted from this thread as being said off topic and no value 
though so many off topic been still there with no value towards J10 discussion 
I hope being a moderator you will look into this with more in-depth what’s the other posters are posting on this particular thread without any relation with J10 and that no value still going on without been deleted just a sake of coz those posters are like having more posts under their belt 
I hope you will look into this and resolve my post deletion
thank you


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## Irfan Baloch

Windjammer said:


> Interestingly the J-10s were escorted by Two F-16s.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500100368709173255
> 
> 
> Due to the high altitude of the formation, @Areesh confused the F-16 with Mirages.


now PAF can fly this jet together with F-16s without any limitation from USA.

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## GriffinsRule

Irfan Baloch said:


> now PAF can fly this jet together with F-16s without any limitation from USA.


I anticipate USAF asking PAF to pretty please bring J-10 to the next exercise with them. Will be interesting to see if we take this jet to Anatolian Eagle or not with the NATO presence as well

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## Zee-shaun

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499720450267652101

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## mudas777

araz said:


> We are not the state of Israel. They have carte nlanche immunity to do whatever they please with noncompromising support from the US and EU. Comparing Pakistan with Israel is a great fallacy. Secondly, ( and this remains my firm belief) the fact that we had 8-9 of their ACs in our sights andchose to take only 2 out helped our narrative greatly. This was as much a military campaign as it was a narrative build up not only of us responding to an-aggression in a responsible manner but also within the ROEs. Going ape on the IAF may have gotten us more planes as trophies but the narrative game would have been lost and we would have been labelled as aggressors. 8t would have put IA, Modi, and IAF as sufferers of an,aggressive move with loss of lives and equipment. You did not see the aggression in Christine Fiarr's voice. That is a true reflection of the Western/US perception of us. The fact that we acted responsibly and stood within the ROEs gave us justification to respond go aggression on our soil.
> The Indians can only cry over their loss as they have lost so badly on the narrative game that any further aggression from them would not have been possible.
> The other aspect of it was making sure we gave them no grounds to escalate while being fully prepared to do so should they try anything silly. This stopped them dead in their tracks as any further aggression would have made tuem look like hullies along with giving them a bloody nose. They then chose to put their own brand of spin on it to cover their ignominous defeat, something only Indians can do.
> So in all Pakistan earned a lot more out of this episode than a moral victory. They won the war of optics and narrative on a level where the other side could only lick their wounds and not do anything more.
> It does not mean tuere will not be a 2nd episode of the same from them. However they are aware that the cost may not be worth the effort.
> A



Araz I don't want to derail this thread but i think you should open up another thread. So you can let us all know what we have gained and this mantra of yours, we have gained what not and so called possibly not escalating got us where?

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## Gripen9

HRK said:


> yes & I think it was MiG-21...


Sep 18, 1988 he shot down 2x Mig23s
A few weeks later he shot down another SU-22.

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## araz

mudas777 said:


> Araz I don't want to derail this thread but i think you should open up another thread. So you can let us all know what we have gained and this mantra of yours, we have gained what not and so called possibly not escalating got us where?


Bhai..
Iam caught up to my eyeballs in work and another stressful situation. I have explained my view on the situation. You can agree or disagree with it. No disrespect to you and sincerest appreciation for your contribution but I genuinely do not have the time to be indulging in debates. I catch up and contribute during break from my work so it is really difficult at the moment. 
A

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## Princeps Senatus

HydNizam said:


> On Paper even Rafale, Su30, mirage 2000
> Look formidable but it all comes down to superior training and tactics of PAF


only rafale is formidable out of these

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## Irfan Baloch

GriffinsRule said:


> I anticipate USAF asking PAF to pretty please bring J-10 to the next exercise with them. Will be interesting to see if we take this jet to Anatolian Eagle or not with the NATO presence as well


If it was up to me then I will happily allow it in case we get upgraded Block 60 or 72 F-16 squadrons paid via CSF or on generous.

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## kursed

Irfan Baloch said:


> If it was up to me then I will happily allow it in case we get upgraded Block 60 or 72 F-16 squadrons paid via CSF or on generous.


I’m fairly sure Chinese have asked for guarantees for this exact scenario to not take place. They’ve shared their front line tech with Pak, in this instance.

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## The Terminator

Trango Towers said:


> On that day there was war.
> When the enemy came into Pakistan they didn't bring roses.
> When you fight you fight hard and you punch through the bastard so he knows not to engage you again.
> Pakistan missed an opportunity. Had all 9 aircraft been taken out even bollywood would have made movies of PAF legends.
> India pilots would forever have feared the PAF.


Lol read your 1st couple of lines and I thought it's gonna be a nice poem to follow 😜😂😂



Engima Chaudhry said:


> Agreed to a large extant. But I would doubt the statement about sustained turn rate being inferior. The delta canard layout , coupled with fly by wire addresses that.
> If I remember correctly Lavi fighter of Israel had the same profile and it was out performing f16As in sustained turn rates.
> About the no. Of bvrs. I think 6 is a big number. Four on dual racks and two on twin chin mounts.
> Roll performance would be better than Rafale. The fins below the engine exhaust are there to prevent sliding of the fuselage in maneuvers. F16 had the same problem, so these fins were introduced in f16 .
> Regards


I have answered that earlier in detail. Delta fighters aren't that much good at rate fighting FBW doesn't have to do with aerodynamic configurations

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## tphuang

Irfan Baloch said:


> If it was up to me then I will happily allow it in case we get upgraded Block 60 or 72 F-16 squadrons paid via CSF or on generous.


Just wonderful, china gives paf advanced weaponry on the cheap, so Pakistan can sell them out. All these years that china helped Pakistan with making jf17 the aircraft that it is, what kind of access do you think china got on f16s?

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## Jinn Baba

Irfan Baloch said:


> If it was up to me then I will happily allow it in case we get upgraded Block 60 or 72 F-16 squadrons paid via CSF or on generous.



Don't screw over a friend for a user.

Always remember - bros before h0es!

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## Engima Chaudhry

The Terminator said:


> Lol read your 1st couple of lines and I thought it's gonna be a nice poem to follow 😜😂😂
> 
> 
> I have answered that earlier in detail. Delta fighters aren't that much good at rate fighting FBW doesn't have to do with aerodynamic configurations


Thanks. I agree.
I have read somewhere that f15 fighters were better at dog fighting because they were doing it 100% of the time to air superiority role. While f16 pilots divided it up e.g. 40 % to strike and 60% for air to air. I think it was a French fighter pilot of rafale who said this in interview. 
Now if we convert that to Pakistani scenario. F16 or jf17 pilots would be dividing up their flight time in similar ratios. J10c pilots , on the other hand , would be concentrating on air superiority role nearly 100%. That would translate into a more skilled pilot in dogfighting. 
I agree about the delta wing limitations, but , in my opinion , dogfight is 3 dimensional. No mirage pilot, worth his salt would engage in a dogfight , while, ignoring altitude totally. That would considerable increase the first 30 seconds of the dogfight to nearly a minute. 
These factors would favour j10c pilot. Just my thoughts.
( of course , excluding the capabilities of pl10 and hmd from the equation. )

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## Clutch

HydNizam said:


> On Paper even Rafale, Su30, mirage 2000
> Look formidable but it all comes down to superior training and tactics of PAF




Su-30 is a flop as the Ukrainian war is demonstrating... Falling out of the skies like flies.


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## Trango Towers

kursed said:


> I’m fairly sure Chinese have asked for guarantees for this exact scenario to not take place. They’ve shared their front line tech with Pak, in this instance.


It's in pakistans interest not to share anything with the US.
US is not a friendbof Pakistan and will share data with Israel and India

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## syedmunib

Picking up the bitsthat were left 🙄

Looks like the accessories are being picked up as well. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500139937122902016

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## The Terminator

araz said:


> We are not the state of Israel. They have carte nlanche immunity to do whatever they please with noncompromising support from the US and EU. Comparing Pakistan with Israel is a great fallacy. Secondly, ( and this remains my firm belief) the fact that we had 8-9 of their ACs in our sights andchose to take only 2 out helped our narrative greatly. This was as much a military campaign as it was a narrative build up not only of us responding to an-aggression in a responsible manner but also within the ROEs. Going ape on the IAF may have gotten us more planes as trophies but the narrative game would have been lost and we would have been labelled as aggressors. 8t would have put IA, Modi, and IAF as sufferers of an,aggressive move with loss of lives and equipment. You did not see the aggression in Christine Fiarr's voice. That is a true reflection of the Western/US perception of us. The fact that we acted responsibly and stood within the ROEs gave us justification to respond go aggression on our soil.
> The Indians can only cry over their loss as they have lost so badly on the narrative game that any further aggression from them would not have been possible.
> The other aspect of it was making sure we gave them no grounds to escalate while being fully prepared to do so should they try anything silly. This stopped them dead in their tracks as any further aggression would have made tuem look like hullies along with giving them a bloody nose. They then chose to put their own brand of spin on it to cover their ignominous defeat, something only Indians can do.
> So in all Pakistan earned a lot more out of this episode than a moral victory. They won the war of optics and narrative on a level where the other side could only lick their wounds and not do anything more.
> It does not mean tuere will not be a 2nd episode of the same from them. However they are aware that the cost may not be worth the effort.
> A


*To all Fanboys and keyboard warriors* 

Those fanboys don't realize that if we had gone on full potential that day, the story could have been totally different. They are commiting the same mistake that Indians tend to do all the time and see where it has gotten them. The famous blunder of underestimating the capabilities and resolve of the opposing force. A nuclear armed force, multiple times bigger than us in every possible metrics, and you were gonna corner them that day aimlessly? What were your main objectives? Those people seem to be so confused and out of focus. 

We downed their 2 jets, achieved our goals of precision strike and they shot down their own helicopter. That's enough of an insult for the military force far bigger than us with 7 times the defense budget and having top of the line fighters in their fleet. If for example PAF would have shot down max 8 more jets, so what would have been achieved then??? The matters could have swiftly spiralled out of control, they could have launched some sort of attacks on us and woooow you just started another war without any intention or clear objectives. If you don't know then i would like to tell you that shooting down of a military plane deep inside its own territory is equivalent to declaration of war.

AS we rightfully reserved our right to retaliate at our choice of time and place when they attacked the balakot then our misadventure would have given them the legitimacy to retaliate as and where they please. And you would be lunatic to think of that they aren't capable of waging a war. As our PM didn't wanna to start a skirmish but IK and DG ISPR repeatedly said that we don't wanna start a war but we would be compelled to respond and keep the escalation ladder in our favor because it was India who committed a misadventure first. Same goes for the opposing side. Give them some face saving space to maneuver or they would have to surely retaliate. When it comes to the national security and survival, all diplomacy and Geo-economics takes a back seat.

so tell me fanboys are you lunatic and dumb enough like those mentally unstable Indian trolls! If so then you deserve the same beating and humiliation as they did.

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## applesauce

Irfan Baloch said:


> If it was up to me then I will happily allow it in case we get upgraded Block 60 or 72 F-16 squadrons paid via CSF or on generous.



if it were up to you,
this is how you will guarantee that pakistan will never again be able to acquire any top of the line chinese-domestic use versions of its combat systems ever again, at best receive watered down export-only monkey models and probably not of the lastest design either. and you can also forget about any tot or development assistance for 5th gens, you can go ask the us for that.

and before you think, oh but china needs Pakistan against india.
remember india is a small fry compared to the us, china would absolutely let india take supremacy in the sub continent if the only alternative was a stronger pakistan but the US gets to touch the latest chinese domestic tech.

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## Air Wolf

kursed said:


> I’m fairly sure Chinese have asked for guarantees for this exact scenario to not take place. They’ve shared their front line tech with Pak, in this instance.



It's only fair considering US even have bunch of guys stationed in Pak just to safeguard their jets. China on the other hand will trust PAF to not let anything slip.

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## The Terminator

Irfan Baloch said:


> If it was up to me then I will happily allow it in case we get upgraded Block 60 or 72 F-16 squadrons paid via CSF or on generous.


Lol F-16 is like an open book to the world. Giving away J-10C's secrets that cheap would have hurt Pakistan more than anyone else. It's role in PLAAF is to just beef up the numbers of 4,4++ gen fighters. Their main Frontline fighters are J-20 followed by a plethora of Chinese flanker variants.

What Pakistan would loose through that hypothetical mental ma$tu®b@tion ! 👇

It's most reliable enigmatic Frontline fighter jet, the silver bullet (which no one knows about in depth), tip of the spear. And what we would get in return? F-16 practically the oldest vvho®e of the 4th gen fighters with relatively new bells and whistles from a country we can't attribute as a dependable, trusted friend. US would gladly donate the platforms in our use to our adversary to play with if the need arises.

Don't forget how you got upgrades and BVR capability for the falcons, because you were going to induct PL-12/SD-10s anyways that too on a local JV platform. Simultaneous induction of JF-17 Block 3 and J-10CP could further pave the way for our F-16s to get to the V standard. Be focused, realistic and honest to your cause.

That was useless proposition of you indeed



Jinn Baba said:


> Don't screw over a friend for a user.
> 
> Always remember - bros before h0es!


Exactly. What a sh!+load of mental.....

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## The Terminator

alphapak said:


> Maybe this time he will say "agar Pakistan ke pass J10 na hota ....."


Or maybe Modi would say " Agar Amrika ne Pakistani F Sola ki delivery na roki Hoti to . . . . ."

Then just imagine what could have been happening at PAC Kamra now 😜

Don't even think of Project Azm in the wildest of your imaginations


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## Aesterix

Windjammer said:


> Interestingly the J-10s were escorted by Two F-16s.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500100368709173255
> 
> 
> Due to the high altitude of the formation, @Areesh confused the F-16 with Mirages.


Someone should post the video from F-16 cockpit of the J-10C formation.



NA71 said:


> boss nothing is formidable in modern days warfare


And yet English language has a word "formidable " in the dictionary. 
I will shave my head when Pakistani nation comes out of inferiority complex. However Indian style superiority complex is no good either. Then you send Mig 21 to fend off F 16 and tea becomes fantastic.

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## araz

The Terminator said:


> *To all Fanboys and keyboard warriors*
> 
> Those fanboys don't realize that if we had gone on full potential that day, the story could have been totally different. They are commiting the same mistake that Indians tend to do all the time and see where it has gotten them. The famous blunder of underestimating the capabilities and resolve of the opposing force. A nuclear armed force, multiple times bigger than us in every possible metrics, and you were gonna corner them that day aimlessly? What were your main objectives? Those people seem to be so confused and out of focus.
> 
> We downed their 2 jets, achieved our goals of precision strike and they shot down their own helicopter. That's enough of an insult for the military force far bigger than us with 7 times the defense budget and having top of the line fighters in their fleet. If for example PAF would have shot down max 8 more jets, so what would have been achieved then??? The matters could have swiftly spiralled out of control, they could have launched some sort of attacks on us and woooow you just started another war without any intention or clear objectives. If you don't know then i would like to tell you that shooting down of a military plane deep inside its own territory is equivalent to declaration of war.
> 
> AS we rightfully reserved our right to retaliate at our choice of time and place when they attacked the balakot then our misadventure would have given them the legitimacy to retaliate as and where they please. And you would be lunatic to think of that they aren't capable of waging a war. As our PM didn't wanna to start a skirmish but IK and DG ISPR repeatedly said that we don't wanna start a war but we would be compelled to respond and keep the escalation ladder in our favor because it was India who committed a misadventure first. Same goes for the opposing side. Give them some face saving space to maneuver or they would have to surely retaliate. When it comes to the national security and survival, all diplomacy and Geo-economics takes a back seat.
> 
> so tell me fanboys are you lunatic and dumb enough like those mentally unstable Indian trolls! If so then you deserve the same beating and humiliation as they did.


Thank you. To add to your post posters should also consider Pakistan's financial situation at the time which was dire. A war at that time would jave been crippling.
A

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## Deltadart

Reichmarshal said:


> DCS take on the j10 arrival in Pakistan


Masha Allah, watching this video warmed my heart.


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## MultaniGuy

So where are the J-10C in Pakistan?

I saw a few photos with J-10Cs with Pakistani flag printed on the tail.


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## Windjammer

*J-10C defeats JAS39C/D with a high score in Sino-Thai joint exercise: report*
Posted on September 18, 2019 by buffalo




J-10C and JAS39 flying in formation

It’s been a mystery how J-10C fighters performed in last month’s military exercise with Thailand’s JAS39C/D Gripen fighters as there’s no official information about the results, but some Chinese media channels have been reporting unconfirmed news about J-10C’s “complete victory”.

One Chinese news account reported yesterday that according to some Russian media, J-10C and JAS39C/D fighters appeared at the same time to celebrate the successful conclusion of the joint exercise, and J-10C has achieved brilliant results in this exercise. In the combat exercise, J-10C fighters defeated JAS39C/D fighters with a big score gap. And this is not surprising because the performance of J-10C is superior in terms of maneuverability and handling. However, the Western countries did not understand this, so they were very surprised when they learned of such a result.

In the simulation exercise, the super high maneuverability supported by J-10C’s canard wing layout makes JAS39C/D fighters at a loss. At the same time, J-10C’s radar and avionics systems are more advanced than JAS39C/D fighters. In middle-and long-distance battles, JAS39C/D fighters often did not find J-10C before they were locked and shot down by missiles. In the close combats, J-10C’s ultra-high manoeuvrability has an unparalleled advantage. The canard wing layout makes the fighter’s power very abundant, while JAS39C/D fighter has no power to fight back.

It’s quoted that a US F-16 retired pilot said on social media that he is very aware of the performance of the Gripens, so he’d take off his hat and pay tribute to J-10C for its advantages in the simulated air combats. The pilot also said that JAS39C/D fighters also have a pair of canards. Before the US military gained experience in combating canard wing fighters, they had conducted confrontation exercises with JAS39C/D.

The pilot said he faced great pressure when driving the F-16 against JAS39C/D fighters. JAS39C/D fighters are light fighters, and the radar and avionics systems were very advanced. Even if F-16’s air-to-air missiles could lock JAS39C/D fighters, the latter could get rid of them in time with super high mobility. Therefore, as J-10C achieved such a record in the actual combat against JAS39C/D fighter, this proves the superiority of J-10C performance.

According to the report, a spokesman for the White House said that the joint exercise between Thailand and China is unacceptable. This will only enhance the actual combat capability of the Chinese Air Force. The US has just signed an order for armored vehicles with Thailand, and the West should be Thailand’s choice. But from the current behavior of Thailand, it is obvious that the country has its own ideas. It is reported that in addition to the joint exercise with the Chinese Air Force, Thailand’s navy also participated in a joint military exercise between the United States and the ASEAN.

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## Deltadart

PanzerKiel said:


> harami nahin, hamari....


Freudian slip. 😄

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## FuturePAF

HydNizam said:


> YJ-83K AsHm
> View attachment 820938
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 820940
> 
> 
> View attachment 820941


Great longer range fighter to support the navy.


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## JonAsad

syedmunib said:


> Picking up the bitsthat were left 🙄
> 
> Looks like the accessories are being picked up as well.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500139937122902016


Out of curiosity, how many do we have?


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## Irfan Baloch

kursed said:


> I’m fairly sure Chinese have asked for guarantees for this exact scenario to not take place. They’ve shared their front line tech with Pak, in this instance.


its a hypothetical scenario. Russians let the Indians exercise with Americans using their SU 30 MKIs' J-10 is not the sole front line fighter with some out of the world technology that Americans want to find out. Chinese Flankers and J 20s are the real front line fighters that are far more sensitive and likely face the American or Taiwanese Jets first before or together with J-10.
again just an assumption. point is, there is a cost and benefit analysis., if benefit outweighs the cost then a country does what suits it.

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## Irfan Baloch

The Terminator said:


> Lol F-16 is like an open book to the world. Giving away J-10C's secrets that cheap would have hurt Pakistan more than anyone else. It's role in PLAAF is to just beef up the numbers of 4,4++ gen fighters. Their main Frontline fighters are J-20 followed by a plethora of Chinese flanker variants.
> 
> What Pakistan would loose through that hypothetical mental ma$tu®b@tion ! 👇
> 
> It's most reliable enigmatic Frontline fighter jet, the silver bullet (which no one knows about in depth), tip of the spear. And what we would get in return? F-16 practically the oldest vvho®e of the 4th gen fighters with relatively new bells and whistles from a country we can't attribute as a dependable, trusted friend. US would gladly donate the platforms in our use to our adversary to play with if the need arises.
> 
> Don't forget how you got upgrades and BVR capability for the falcons, because you were going to induct PL-12/SD-10s anyways that too on a local JV platform. Simultaneous induction of JF-17 Block 3 and J-10CP could further pave the way for our F-16s to get to the V standard. Be focused, realistic and honest to your cause.
> 
> That was useless proposition of you indeed
> 
> 
> Exactly. What a sh!+load of mental m@$tu®bation


I don't understand the wholesale butthurt over a hypothetical scenario.
why have all the bleeding hearts decided that China has placed some sort of a ban on PAF to fly these jets with Western airforces?
its a two way stream remember, PAF (and in tern China) will also be gathering information about how these Jets fare against the other Western platforms. its not jsut Americans stealing the universal secrets of J-10s. 

moving on, Chinese "fictional" reservations aside, it will be PAF's call whether to deploy these jets in such exercises or not because again .. such information (of a silver bullet) can trickle down to other "allies" of Americans that don't have very "cordial" terms with Pakistan.

NOW.. F-16 being a whore?
this Whore has kept the soviets at bay during first Afghan War and kept Indians sleepless since they were acquired and their fears were realized when these same F 16s who call whores shot down two IAF jets and the Modi's pride to the ground.



tphuang said:


> Just wonderful, china gives paf advanced weaponry on the cheap, so Pakistan can sell them out. All these years that china helped Pakistan with making jf17 the aircraft that it is, what kind of access do you think china got on f16s?


sell them out? we are talking J-10 NOT J-20.
what is so ground breaking and ahead of its time in this modest medium size single engine jet that Americans will be so keen to find out if they haven't done already though their conventional and electronic espionage ? does it carry some plasma shielding and directed energy weapons technology? does it use some phasing technology?

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## Irfan Baloch

applesauce said:


> and before you think, oh but china needs Pakistan against india.
> remember india is a small fry compared to the us, china would absolutely let india take supremacy in the sub continent if the only alternative was a stronger pakistan but the US gets to touch the latest chinese domestic tech.


then pray tell, why the anguish my hypothetical scenario ?
so according to you China will share its secrets with India as a revenge against Pakistan? and in the end do more damage to it self than what Pakistan does by simply participating in American exercise with J-10s?

THAT same India that is part of Quad specially set up against it?

wow .. you need clapping for this logic.

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## SQ8

Irfan Baloch said:


> I don't understand the wholesale butthurt over a hypothetical scenario.
> why have all the bleeding hearts decided that China has placed some sort of a ban on PAF to fly these jets with Western airforces?
> its a two way stream remember, PAF (and in tern China) will also be gathering information about how these Jets fare against the other Western platforms. its not jsut Americans stealing the universal secrets of J-10s.
> 
> moving on, Chinese "fictional" reservations aside, it will be PAF's call whether to deploy these jets in such exercises or not because again .. such information (of a silver bullet) can trickle down to other "allies" of Americans that don't have very "cordial" terms with Pakistan.
> 
> NOW.. F-16 being a whore?
> this Whore has kept the soviets at bay during first Afghan War and kept Indians sleepless since they were acquired and their fears were realized when these same F 16s who call whores shot down two IAF jets and the Modi's pride to the ground.
> 
> 
> sell them out? we are talking J-10 NOT J-20.
> what is so ground breaking and ahead of its time in this modest medium size single engine jet that Americans will be so keen to find out if they haven't done already though their conventional and electronic espionage ? does it carry some plasma shielding and directed energy weapons technology? does it use some phasing technology?


Oddly enough, the Chinese owe a lot to Pakistan for “betraying” US technology and procedures secrets but due to the hyper nationalist variety that represent them here they not only wont accept it but consider Pakistanis “lesser beings”.

The JF-17 literally was transformed slowly with inputs from the F-16 with the CPD pushing it in bit by bit…that same input was also provided throughout that lifecycle of the FC-20 to J-10CP saga but the Netizens wont acknowledge what CAC engineers do.

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## applesauce

Irfan Baloch said:


> then pray tell, why the anguish my hypothetical scenario ?
> so according to you China will share its secrets with India as a revenge against Pakistan? and in the end do more damage to it self than what Pakistan does by simply participating in American exercise with J-10s?
> 
> THAT same India that is part of Quad specially set up against it?
> 
> wow .. you need clapping for this logic.



no, china isnt going to provide india with military anything (unless they want to buy off taobao). don't put words in my mouth, i suggested nothing of the sort.

china will simply no longer provide pakistan with the best it could come up with, never mind the near-zero profit PLA prices that pakistan has been getting its goods for.

think about the past and current situation in pakistan without china, no emergency J-7, no jf-17, no j-10, no 5th gen(yes i know the TFX is a thing, but time frame, how successful and whether the us/eu parts will be allowed for Pakistan is still unknown) . americans still blocking more f-16 never mind the "defense only" requirement for the f-16. pakistan would be left with a much weaker air force and navy, and conversely india would be far more powerful in comparison and end up with supremacy in the sub continent by default.


____________________

for everyone else. i don't believe that the pakistani leadership is this stupid and china clearly has demonstrated trust in pakistan as a whole.

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## 帅的一匹

Irfan Baloch said:


> its a hypothetical scenario. Russians let the Indians exercise with Americans using their SU 30 MKIs' J-10 is not the sole front line fighter with some out of the world technology that Americans want to find out. Chinese Flankers and J 20s are the real front line fighters that are far more sensitive and likely face the American or Taiwanese Jets first before or together with J-10.
> again just an assumption. point is, there is a cost and benefit analysis., if benefit outweighs the cost then a country does what suits it.


Now PAF can do combat excercise by flying J10cp against F16?

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## sheik

Irfan Baloch said:


> its a hypothetical scenario. Russians let the Indians exercise with Americans using their SU 30 MKIs' J-10 is not the sole front line fighter with some out of the world technology that Americans want to find out. Chinese Flankers and J 20s are the real front line fighters that are far more sensitive and likely face the American or Taiwanese Jets first before or together with J-10.
> again just an assumption. point is, there is a cost and benefit analysis., if benefit outweighs the cost then a country does what suits it.



Hypothetical scenario?
So what will you think if your friend tells you that if you two meet some bad guys in the street, he'd push you to them to get himself some better chance to escape?
It's just hypothetical so you won't mind at all, right?

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## The Eagle

The Terminator said:


> Effectively *fusing the project Azm and TAI TFX in one JV.*



The most contested incorrect statement in internet that resulted in a counter statement by mist credible Turkish Defence website. That was humiliating for over-excited point scoring wannabe internet defence experts.

Secondly, this is not the place to talk about. We have a dedicated thread.

Regards,

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## 帅的一匹

I think there must be a security protocol signed or mutual understanding regarding J10cp. I don’t even think USA will allow PAF F16 fighters doing excercise with J10cp although they are both your inventory now.

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## MastanKhan

The Terminator said:


> *To all Fanboys and keyboard warriors*
> 
> Those fanboys don't realize that if we had gone on full potential that day, the story could have been totally different. They are commiting the same mistake that Indians tend to do all the time and see where it has gotten them. The famous blunder of underestimating the capabilities and resolve of the opposing force. A nuclear armed force, multiple times bigger than us in every possible metrics, and you were gonna corner them that day aimlessly? What were your main objectives? Those people seem to be so confused and out of focus.
> 
> We downed their 2 jets, achieved our goals of precision strike and they shot down their own helicopter. That's enough of an insult for the military force far bigger than us with 7 times the defense budget and having top of the line fighters in their fleet. If for example PAF would have shot down max 8 more jets, so what would have been achieved then??? The matters could have swiftly spiralled out of control, they could have launched some sort of attacks on us and woooow you just started another war without any intention or clear objectives. If you don't know then i would like to tell you that shooting down of a military plane deep inside its own territory is equivalent to declaration of war.
> 
> AS we rightfully reserved our right to retaliate at our choice of time and place when they attacked the balakot then our misadventure would have given them the legitimacy to retaliate as and where they please. And you would be lunatic to think of that they aren't capable of waging a war. As our PM didn't wanna to start a skirmish but IK and DG ISPR repeatedly said that we don't wanna start a war but we would be compelled to respond and keep the escalation ladder in our favor because it was India who committed a misadventure first. Same goes for the opposing side. Give them some face saving space to maneuver or they would have to surely retaliate. When it comes to the national security and survival, all diplomacy and Geo-economics takes a back seat.
> 
> so tell me fanboys are you lunatic and dumb enough like those mentally unstable Indian trolls! If so then you deserve the same beating and humiliation as they did.



Hi,

Nice emotional low performance capability acceptance comments.

Tactically---it would have been better not to have retaliated at all till the Paf had the capability to smash them to kingdom come in one go.

Now with this ill-conceived performance---Paf has given all its electronic warfare tactical advantage away just for a little rarararara---and chest thumping---and Paf will never be able to regain that strength again---.

All the tactical advantage that the Paf had is gone---.

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## 帅的一匹

sheik said:


> Hypothetical scenario?
> So what will you think if your friend tells you that if you two meet some bad guys in the street, he'd push you to them to get himself some better chance to escape?
> It's just hypothetical so you won't mind at all, right?


That’s why J20 is not coming, before the F16 mentality addiction is treated.

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## siegecrossbow

GriffinsRule said:


> I anticipate USAF asking PAF to pretty please bring J-10 to the next exercise with them. Will be interesting to see if we take this jet to Anatolian Eagle or not with the NATO presence as well



They certainly could figure out the basic performance of the aircraft, but how the J-10C is used in PLAAF is very different from how it is used in PAF.


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## StructE

applesauce said:


> china will simply no longer provide pakistan with the best it could come up with, never mind the near-zero profit PLA prices that pakistan has been getting its goods for.


The relationship between these two countries is symbiotic, there is a two-way mimicry in Armed forces of both countries. Pakistan has provided much needed help to China in the 20th Century. They both provide a physical escape to each other from potential blockades, Sino-Pak Arc creates a by-pass. In addition to this there is 70 years of history of trust which is probably far more important in Eastern-Oriental context. For most people including Millennial Chinese and Pakistanis, it is hard to understand what China has to gain from Pakistan in this day and age (besides the Indian factor) but there is more to it, for both countries this relationship is long term hedge against unknown odds. 

My understanding is that even if Pakistan goes further down in its rabbit hole of corruption and incompetence, China is still not leaving Pakistani side, Pakistan will still be getting diplomatic support, latest tech and weapons on subsidized price. In comparison to North Korea, Pakistan is a thousand times more useful for China, hack they are still holding North Korea's hand. 

In Pakistan's case, Chinese are actually delighted to see Pakistan fully in their camp and out of American Influence. I expect a lot more support and hand holding for the rest of the 21st century.

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## The Eagle

Readerdefence said:


> Hi @The Eagle
> can you please let me know why my post been deleted from this thread as being said off topic and no value
> though so many off topic been still there with no value towards J10 discussion
> I hope being a moderator you will look into this with more in-depth what’s the other posters are posting on this particular thread without any relation with J10 and that no value still going on without been deleted just a sake of coz those posters are like having more posts under their belt
> I hope you will look into this and resolve my post deletion
> thank you



We are not discussing F-16 kills during Soviet war in Afghanistan, here.


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## siegecrossbow

Windjammer said:


> *J-10C defeats JAS39C/D with a high score in Sino-Thai joint exercise: report*
> Posted on September 18, 2019 by buffalo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-10C and JAS39 flying in formation
> 
> It’s been a mystery how J-10C fighters performed in last month’s military exercise with Thailand’s JAS39C/D Gripen fighters as there’s no official information about the results, but some Chinese media channels have been reporting unconfirmed news about J-10C’s “complete victory”.
> 
> One Chinese news account reported yesterday that according to some Russian media, J-10C and JAS39C/D fighters appeared at the same time to celebrate the successful conclusion of the joint exercise, and J-10C has achieved brilliant results in this exercise. In the combat exercise, J-10C fighters defeated JAS39C/D fighters with a big score gap. And this is not surprising because the performance of J-10C is superior in terms of maneuverability and handling. However, the Western countries did not understand this, so they were very surprised when they learned of such a result.
> 
> In the simulation exercise, the super high maneuverability supported by J-10C’s canard wing layout makes JAS39C/D fighters at a loss. At the same time, J-10C’s radar and avionics systems are more advanced than JAS39C/D fighters. In middle-and long-distance battles, JAS39C/D fighters often did not find J-10C before they were locked and shot down by missiles. In the close combats, J-10C’s ultra-high manoeuvrability has an unparalleled advantage. The canard wing layout makes the fighter’s power very abundant, while JAS39C/D fighter has no power to fight back.
> 
> It’s quoted that a US F-16 retired pilot said on social media that he is very aware of the performance of the Gripens, so he’d take off his hat and pay tribute to J-10C for its advantages in the simulated air combats. The pilot also said that JAS39C/D fighters also have a pair of canards. Before the US military gained experience in combating canard wing fighters, they had conducted confrontation exercises with JAS39C/D.
> 
> The pilot said he faced great pressure when driving the F-16 against JAS39C/D fighters. JAS39C/D fighters are light fighters, and the radar and avionics systems were very advanced. Even if F-16’s air-to-air missiles could lock JAS39C/D fighters, the latter could get rid of them in time with super high mobility. Therefore, as J-10C achieved such a record in the actual combat against JAS39C/D fighter, this proves the superiority of J-10C performance.
> 
> According to the report, a spokesman for the White House said that the joint exercise between Thailand and China is unacceptable. This will only enhance the actual combat capability of the Chinese Air Force. The US has just signed an order for armored vehicles with Thailand, and the West should be Thailand’s choice. But from the current behavior of Thailand, it is obvious that the country has its own ideas. It is reported that in addition to the joint exercise with the Chinese Air Force, Thailand’s navy also participated in a joint military exercise between the United States and the ASEAN.



J-10A was already doing great against Gripen in BVR and WVR. They sent J-10C in a effort to do a hard sell the type in Thailand. Unfortunately the Thai are more ambitious and want F-35 instead .

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## The Eagle

Windjammer said:


> Interestingly the J-10s were escorted by Two F-16s.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500100368709173255
> 
> 
> Due to the high altitude of the formation, @Areesh confused the F-16 with Mirages.



We will be installing our required (one missing) antenna on J-10C, in Kamra.

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## Signalian

The Eagle said:


> We are not discussing F-16 kills during Soviet war in Afghanistan, here.


Yes, we should be discussing why JFT Block III fell short that J-10 will be joining the ranks

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## 帅的一匹

StructE said:


> The relationship between these two countries is symbiotic, there is a two-way mimicry in Armed forces of both countries. Pakistan has provided much needed help to China in the 20th Century. They both provide a physical escape to each other from potential blockades, Sino-Pak Arc creates a by-pass. In addition to this there is 70 years of history of trust which is probably far more important in Eastern-Oriental context. For most people including Millennial Chinese and Pakistanis, it is hard to understand what China has to gain from Pakistan in this day and age (besides the Indian factor) but there is more to it, for both countries this relationship is long term hedge against unknown odds.
> 
> My understanding is that even if Pakistan goes further down in its rabbit hole of corruption and incompetence, China is still not leaving Pakistani side, Pakistan will still be getting diplomatic support, latest tech and weapons on subsidized price. In comparison to North Korea, Pakistan is a thousand times more useful for China, hack they are still holding North Korea's hand.
> 
> In Pakistan's case, Chinese are actually delighted to see Pakistan fully in their camp and out of American Influence. I expect a lot more support and hand holding for the rest of the 21st century.


The military tie between China and Pakistan gets stronger after Imran Khan came into power, cause he give ear to the Pakistan army and respects their thoughts. We don’t want a corrupted and imbecile Pakistan government licking American boots, instead a pro China and competent government under a capable leader, especially like Imran khan who has vision and nations pride.

I won’t beg anything or resort for help from any one tread on me or betray me even once.

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## The Eagle

Members! Pakistan China relations are not based on hypothetical scenarios of PDF. It will be better to not to react like insecure teens. Professionals and men involved in business do know well and honours the trust between both countries. If such was the case, J-10 performed against Grippen. Grippen is a western air craft with most US input. By that logic, an exercise will be enough for Europeans to record (of course from Thai maintenance) and inform their NATO leader tye US about J-10.

What makes you think that any of party will commit such a treason and compromise the security or trust forever. Get out if Superior or Inferior argument.

Regards,

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## serenity

kursed said:


> I’m fairly sure Chinese have asked for guarantees for this exact scenario to not take place. They’ve shared their front line tech with Pak, in this instance.



J-10C isn't really defined as frontline fighter for PLAAF. Frontline fighter being the top fighters and force multiplier types which would certainly be J-20 and J-16 as frontline. J-10C are support fighters and number fillers. With air combat for air superiority, it is frontline fighters performing major mission of denying airspace and contesting it while taking out strategic assets and pushing ahead to take out launching platforms.

Rest assured that J-16 and J-20 technologies are ahead of J-10C in terms of electronics, sensors, and communication equipment that are fitted simply because these fighters hold those harder and more important mission profiles.

BUT in this case PLAAF uses almost the same (but not the same) J-10C with PAF now. And despite not being frontline, it is important enough for opsec to ban any types of exercises with any western nation unless China has some say in how the platform is used in those exercises. China exercising with Thailand with J-10B/C and Gripen C is more to benefit of China's side since it gets to evaluate Gipren C's performance (although in the hands of Thai airforce) and Thai airforce are far closer politically to China than to the US and won't be telling them much if anything about J-10's performance while China gets first hand direct experience flying with the Gripens. There are a lot of public information about Gripens exercising against F-16, F-22, F-15, Eurofighter Typhoon etc.



Clutch said:


> Su-30 is a flop as the Ukrainian war is demonstrating... Falling out of the skies like flies.



It depends how it is used. Russian airforce fighters have for decades become lagged in electronic warfare domain - EA, ECM, ECCM and so on. Even in sensors their first generation AESA for Mig-35 was not used. Their second generation is on Himalaya system for Su-57 and only in service in recent years but Su-57 produced in barely single digit numbers rate per year perhaps due to cost compared to Su-35 and overall capability improvement over Su-35 not being worth those extra price? No idea why they don't produce Su-57 in huge numbers. Russian reports indicate they would have been producing Su-57 in double digit numbers per year and before that suggested it is unnecessary. It could be production engineering side being more difficult and extremely costly. Manufacturing is in many ways the harder challenge compared to design believe it or not.



Windjammer said:


> *J-10C defeats JAS39C/D with a high score in Sino-Thai joint exercise: report*
> Posted on September 18, 2019 by buffalo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-10C and JAS39 flying in formation
> 
> It’s been a mystery how J-10C fighters performed in last month’s military exercise with Thailand’s JAS39C/D Gripen fighters as there’s no official information about the results, but some Chinese media channels have been reporting unconfirmed news about J-10C’s “complete victory”.
> 
> One Chinese news account reported yesterday that according to some Russian media, J-10C and JAS39C/D fighters appeared at the same time to celebrate the successful conclusion of the joint exercise, and J-10C has achieved brilliant results in this exercise. In the combat exercise, J-10C fighters defeated JAS39C/D fighters with a big score gap. And this is not surprising because the performance of J-10C is superior in terms of maneuverability and handling. However, the Western countries did not understand this, so they were very surprised when they learned of such a result.
> 
> In the simulation exercise, the super high maneuverability supported by J-10C’s canard wing layout makes JAS39C/D fighters at a loss. At the same time, J-10C’s radar and avionics systems are more advanced than JAS39C/D fighters. In middle-and long-distance battles, JAS39C/D fighters often did not find J-10C before they were locked and shot down by missiles. In the close combats, J-10C’s ultra-high manoeuvrability has an unparalleled advantage. The canard wing layout makes the fighter’s power very abundant, while JAS39C/D fighter has no power to fight back.
> 
> It’s quoted that a US F-16 retired pilot said on social media that he is very aware of the performance of the Gripens, so he’d take off his hat and pay tribute to J-10C for its advantages in the simulated air combats. The pilot also said that JAS39C/D fighters also have a pair of canards. Before the US military gained experience in combating canard wing fighters, they had conducted confrontation exercises with JAS39C/D.
> 
> The pilot said he faced great pressure when driving the F-16 against JAS39C/D fighters. JAS39C/D fighters are light fighters, and the radar and avionics systems were very advanced. Even if F-16’s air-to-air missiles could lock JAS39C/D fighters, the latter could get rid of them in time with super high mobility. Therefore, as J-10C achieved such a record in the actual combat against JAS39C/D fighter, this proves the superiority of J-10C performance.
> 
> According to the report, a spokesman for the White House said that the joint exercise between Thailand and China is unacceptable. This will only enhance the actual combat capability of the Chinese Air Force. The US has just signed an order for armored vehicles with Thailand, and the West should be Thailand’s choice. But from the current behavior of Thailand, it is obvious that the country has its own ideas. It is reported that in addition to the joint exercise with the Chinese Air Force, Thailand’s navy also participated in a joint military exercise between the United States and the ASEAN.



J-11A beat Gripen C in dogfighting by HUGE margins it was like 15 to 1 or something similar to that ratio. J-11A lost to Gripen C by huge margins in first exercises back in like 2015 or something. Indian and western reporting only focused on J-11A losing in BVR but of course it would lose since J-11A is from the 1980s level of eletronic and computing tech with 1990s missiles at best (in fact actually 1970s missiles level due to only having oldest R-77 and old R-27). Anyway this was like comparing F-16A with Gripen C in BVR. Of course Gripen C will beat F-16A in BVR.

It was very surprising that J-11A beat Gripen in dogfighting though. Showing PLAAF training in WVR for J-11A may have been emphasis and I bet PLAAF uses J-11A as missile platform that is simply networked. But it's missiles are too old to be long range and I guess they also use the whole platform as a sneak platform operating in mountainous areas only where the radar is switched off, feed data through awacs to approach targets slowing through mountain valleys and then networked to take 50km range shots with their very old BVR missiles and then sneak in for WVR and then dogfight.

J-10B destroyed Gripen C in both WVR and BVR. J-10C against Gripen C was again another breeze. Gripen C is also getting old. No surprise the much more modern J-10C had easy time in BVR. I doubt Chinese side would use too much electronic abilities against Gripen C. There is not much point since Gripen C lacks phased array and any good electronic abilities because Swedes may not sell Thailand their secret electronic stuff. No one sells the top secret electronic stuff to the point I even doubt China would sell Pakistan China's frontline electronic weapons. J-20's surely would be out of the question. J-16's and J-10's are similar tech level I guess but J-16's would probably have more space and available power.



Irfan Baloch said:


> its a hypothetical scenario. Russians let the Indians exercise with Americans using their SU 30 MKIs' J-10 is not the sole front line fighter with some out of the world technology that Americans want to find out. Chinese Flankers and J 20s are the real front line fighters that are far more sensitive and likely face the American or Taiwanese Jets first before or together with J-10.
> again just an assumption. point is, there is a cost and benefit analysis., if benefit outweighs the cost then a country does what suits it.



Russians placed lots of conditions on how Indians can use their Su-30 and this is Su-30 with really not that much to give away. Their electronic techs - radar and comms that were limited are not that capable or sensitive but still it is opsec issue and opsec issue even for low tier stuff is still sensitive given the entire RuAF depends on Su-30 and even lesser fighters back in those days and to some degree still does.

Yes J-10 is not PLAAF frontline fighter or top level fighter BUT Americans do still want to find out anything they can.

America has bought and stolen lots of adversary technologies from low low level boring stuff like anti tank missiles to low tech (to be honest) air defence like Pantsir (they stole many in Libya and Syria wars) and bought many more on the blackmarket... all of this stuff isn't necessarily just to copy but first to study and find how it works, what it is strong in and weak in so that they are better able to defeat or counter them. The Americans got their hands on many Kh-31 and even developed their own version (you can call it copied or whatever) just so they can practice intercepting Kh-31. They even improved the Kh-31 but for the purpose of simulating more accurately for intercepting it, they kept most of it as it is.

J-10 may not be as sensitive for China but China has around 500 + J-10s and if the adversary learns a lot of details about it, it is definitely still a thing that is sensitive. This is not just about one particular missile or smaller weapon.



Irfan Baloch said:


> I don't understand the wholesale butthurt over a hypothetical scenario.
> why have all the bleeding hearts decided that China has placed some sort of a ban on PAF to fly these jets with Western airforces?
> its a two way stream remember, PAF (and in tern China) will also be gathering information about how these Jets fare against the other Western platforms. its not jsut Americans stealing the universal secrets of J-10s.
> 
> moving on, Chinese "fictional" reservations aside, it will be PAF's call whether to deploy these jets in such exercises or not because again .. such information (of a silver bullet) can trickle down to other "allies" of Americans that don't have very "cordial" terms with Pakistan.
> 
> NOW.. F-16 being a whore?
> this Whore has kept the soviets at bay during first Afghan War and kept Indians sleepless since they were acquired and their fears were realized when these same F 16s who call whores shot down two IAF jets and the Modi's pride to the ground.
> 
> 
> sell them out? we are talking J-10 NOT J-20.
> what is so ground breaking and ahead of its time in this modest medium size single engine jet that Americans will be so keen to find out if they haven't done already though their conventional and electronic espionage ? does it carry some plasma shielding and directed energy weapons technology? does it use some phasing technology?



I agree mostly with what you've said.

But it should be understood that as less capable as J-10 is compared to J-16 and J-20 in not just performance but also how it is used (not frontline), this is still an opsec issue and hence still going to be kept away from Americans and exercises or only used in exercises with lots of conditions of what cannot be used and switched on.

Americans would still be keen to learn whatever just to gather precious intel. Just like China would also be keen to even get some NLAWs to study. It isn't to copy unless there are good ideas to use and copy but it is to learn about their level, what their thinking is in development, their manufacturing and industrial level, their cost associated and how much they spend on making it, the capabiltiy and weaknesses and strengths of this thing, and so on.

There are many many things to tell from even a small thing because you can combine it with other knowledge. I think many members in this forum miss stuff like this. Their thinking is too 1 dimensional - getting hands on an actual piece of weapon = to copy.

All these sides would love to even find out about each other's earliest 4th generation aircraft.

It is all technical stuff to assess technical level at a certain time and their industrial level and how much importance and resources the other devoted to this and how important the other seemingly places on this particular equipment.

So much to tell from something simple. If USA can get hands on a piece of 1960s Chinese thermonuclear weapon design, the Americans would love it! Does it mean they want to copy it? Of course not there is nothing for them to copy and actually adopt instead of modern own designs. Same with vice versa. Nothing to adopt anymore and copy but lots and lots to reveal perhaps even the entire configuration although it is said the American Teller Ulam configuration design is known quite widely and used by many nations. China using Yu Min configuration design is unique in the world and intelligence have long been after this design type if nothing more than to learn about it if not adopt and copy.

All things opsec are secretive and sensitive to some degree. J-10C is used as most modern J-10 version in PLAAF. This is not some modernized J-7 which if all revealed and they know about China's 1990s and early 2000s mods for J-7 which is highly limited platform to mod on for 2000s level technology, then fine whatever.

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## serenity

BTW China would now have over 100 J-20s. So the production rate is can be said as devoted to J-20. J-10 production has gone to another factory probably as Guilin factory hints at now producing J-10.

PLAAF wants J-20 as priority production. Frontline fighter for PLAAF seems to be J-16 and J-20 priority and preference. J-10 production is still kept because it is a versatile and cheaper fighter than J-16 and it is quicker to build of course with less resources used. It is also in some ways can be used differently to J-16 and has different flying strengths for example J-10 has better supersonic performance than flanker design and each type excels in different way in terms of flight performance.

Still the priority seems to be moving ahead to 6th gen, Dark Sword combined with network. And of course more 5th gen fighters. No caps on 5th gen fighter production in fact production is now focused on 5th gens with 4.5 gens production scaled back but of course it needs to be kept because 5th gens are much more expensive and there is a balance. An airforce ideally would have all 5th gens but unrealistic and at some point every extra 5th gen is unnecessary as a 4.5 gen can do the job easily and often even better since 4.5 gens have higher payload. Even J-10C can have more range and payload by weight than F-22 with stealth preserved (so no tanks or external weapons) because J-10 can carry some very heavy anti ship and anti-radiation missiles (four if wanted since the usual tank pylons can carry YJ-91 which means four YJ-91 and two PL-10 with one center tank).

J-10C for payload, if they want, and possibly if PAF requires, the inner pylons usually photographed carrying fuel tanks can be rewired to carry air to air missiles. These pylons can carry guided weapons as they have been seen carrying YJ-91 and various guided bombs too.

The leaks say J-10 can carry air to air missiles with two pylons but it is requiring more ground crew work to access some panels and do a small mod to allow this. It usually isn't used for air to air missiles because 4 MRAAMs is enough and more range and energy is more important for most J-10 suited missions.

For PAF, the mission profiles and entire geography and flight ranges are different. But PLAAF uses J-10 as a bit of a region only fighter and the region size are similar to Pakistan the country in size. So maybe PAF considers the optimal to be the same as PLAAF and feels for 99% of missions and expected use, J-10C is better and best with three fuel tanks, 4 MRAAMs and 2 SRAAMs.

If necessary, it can be armed with 6 (or more depending whether inner pylons want to be double or even triple stacked although I doubt this) MRAAMs, 2 SRAAMs, and one center fuel tank, with one or two pods or gun pod for J-10's front fuselage pylons.

China can absolutely do a "beast mode" for J-10 if they want. It's just such a stupid thing and useless. Only for marketing. Beast mode is dumb and useless for almost all missions. It makes your fighter super sluggish, unable to climb accelerate and turn even 1/3 it's unarmed rates if it is able to even climb vertically. This mode is never used in real life and also because the range of this would not even be half. Almost all real life combat sorties are with fuel tank fuel tank fuel tank lol. Only gamers believe beast mode and hype that. Hence the marketing for it has in recent years become a thing.

Do you see soldiers in real combat carrying one machine gun, one submachine gun, 300 rounds of ammo in clips and belt all around the guy, three pistols, five grenades, kits, food, equipment, ropes, tools, one sword and two knives?? No of course not, each soldier have their jobs and specific use and task. They optimize everything and operate much more lean. Important things are emphasized and balance is used in all mission planning.

Beast mode for F-15 and Flanker platform is much more useful in comparison. These are high lift, low drag (but not as low as 5th gens), lots of room for weapons on wings, big powerful engines and two of them and most importantly lots more internal fuel compared to your F-16,s J-10s, Typhoons, Rafales, Mig-29 etc.

Even then F-15 and Flanker avoid beast mode. They are already quite beastly for being able to carry 8 to 10 MRAAMs and 2 SRAAMs comfortably without as much sacrifice as those others. 5th gens going beast mode with wing carry is just a waste of capability of stealth and risking such expensive platforms.

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## mudas777

Irfan Baloch said:


> If it was up to me then I will happily allow it in case we get upgraded Block 60 or 72 F-16 squadrons paid via CSF or on generous.



Some people just never change, time to move on my friend. Indian managed and Israeli control congress are you day dreaming or you had a special sherbet today. Lets get out of the FATF first.

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## Vapnope

The disrespect toward a senior member who has contributed quality work for years, is appalling. Some fanboys don't even see why someone has a title and go on to believe that they definitely know more than the title holders. Show some respect instead of being an arrogant kid.

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## Dual Wielder

Vapnope said:


> Some fanboys don't even see why someone has a title and go on to believe that they definitely know more than the title holders. Show some respect instead of being an arrogant kid.









@PanzerKiel

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## tphuang

serenity said:


> J-10C isn't really defined as frontline fighter for PLAAF. Frontline fighter being the top fighters and force multiplier types which would certainly be J-20 and J-16 as frontline. J-10C are support fighters and number fillers. With air combat for air superiority, it is frontline fighters performing major mission of denying airspace and contesting it while taking out strategic assets and pushing ahead to take out launching platforms.
> 
> Rest assured that J-16 and J-20 technologies are ahead of J-10C in terms of electronics, sensors, and communication equipment that are fitted simply because these fighters hold those harder and more important mission profiles.
> 
> PLAAF wants J-20 as priority production. Frontline fighter for PLAAF seems to be J-16 and J-20 priority and preference. J-10 production is still kept because it is a versatile and cheaper fighter than J-16 and it is quicker to build of course with less resources used. It is also in some ways can be used differently to J-16 and has different flying strengths for example J-10 has better supersonic performance than flanker design and each type excels in different way in terms of flight performance.


Will you stop saying things like J-10C is not a frontline fighter for PLAAF? J-10C and J-16 are the same generation fighter. The only reason J-16 will get a longer production run is the same reason F-15EX is still getting produced. PLAAF needs a long range bomb truck and EW platform long after it has large number of stealth aircraft. There is no evidence J-16 technologies in radar and avionics is ahead of J-10C. There is a reason J-10C still does so well against J-16 in DACT. It's a great aircraft.

Now, as for letting out secrecy. It's definitely a concern for PLAAF that USAF may get a look at it. I think there are certain implicit understanding between PLAAF and PAF on what is okay and what is not okay. After all, USAF does not even let any F-16 users conduct DACT against PLAAF. Which is kind of crazy when you consider that PLAAF essentially conducts DACT with ROCAF F-16Vs on a monthly basis. I suspect that PAF conducting regular exercises with J-10C with non-NATO countries (and probably Turkey) is okay, but PLAAF would not want USAF to get an extended look at it.

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## Khan vilatey

The Terminator said:


> *To all Fanboys and keyboard warriors*
> 
> Those fanboys don't realize that if we had gone on full potential that day, the story could have been totally different. They are commiting the same mistake that Indians tend to do all the time and see where it has gotten them. The famous blunder of underestimating the capabilities and resolve of the opposing force. A nuclear armed force, multiple times bigger than us in every possible metrics, and you were gonna corner them that day aimlessly? What were your main objectives? Those people seem to be so confused and out of focus.
> 
> We downed their 2 jets, achieved our goals of precision strike and they shot down their own helicopter. That's enough of an insult for the military force far bigger than us with 7 times the defense budget and having top of the line fighters in their fleet. If for example PAF would have shot down max 8 more jets, so what would have been achieved then??? The matters could have swiftly spiralled out of control, they could have launched some sort of attacks on us and woooow you just started another war without any intention or clear objectives. If you don't know then i would like to tell you that shooting down of a military plane deep inside its own territory is equivalent to declaration of war.
> 
> AS we rightfully reserved our right to retaliate at our choice of time and place when they attacked the balakot then our misadventure would have given them the legitimacy to retaliate as and where they please. And you would be lunatic to think of that they aren't capable of waging a war. As our PM didn't wanna to start a skirmish but IK and DG ISPR repeatedly said that we don't wanna start a war but we would be compelled to respond and keep the escalation ladder in our favor because it was India who committed a misadventure first. Same goes for the opposing side. Give them some face saving space to maneuver or they would have to surely retaliate. When it comes to the national security and survival, all diplomacy and Geo-economics takes a back seat.
> 
> so tell me fanboys are you lunatic and dumb enough like those mentally unstable Indian trolls! If so then you deserve the same beating and humiliation as they did.



I share your sentiments about feb 2019 but and there is always a but , I see a bigger armed conflict with India over Kashmir. The reasons are more economical than anything else. We need the Skurdu - China road. To secure our economy. We also cannot leave Kashmir to the Indians as we need to ensure our encomic security and protect our trade with Central Asia. our future as people is dependent on looking west to Central Asia and china

k

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## serenity

tphuang said:


> Will you stop saying things like J-10C is not a frontline fighter for PLAAF? J-10C and J-16 are the same generation fighter. The only reason J-16 will get a longer production run is the same reason F-15EX is still getting produced. PLAAF needs a long range bomb truck and EW platform long after it has large number of stealth aircraft. There is no evidence J-16 technologies in radar and avionics is ahead of J-10C. There is a reason J-10C still does so well against J-16 in DACT. It's a great aircraft.
> 
> Now, as for letting out secrecy. It's definitely a concern for PLAAF that USAF may get a look at it. I think there are certain implicit understanding between PLAAF and PAF on what is okay and what is not okay. After all, USAF does not even let any F-16 users conduct DACT against PLAAF. Which is kind of crazy when you consider that PLAAF essentially conducts DACT with ROCAF F-16Vs on a monthly basis. I suspect that PAF conducting regular exercises with J-10C with non-NATO countries (and probably Turkey) is okay, but PLAAF would not want USAF to get an extended look at it.



We are arguing over semantics. Just like Mig-29 is not a frontline fighter for VVS, Su-27 is/was.

Frontline fighter I already defined carefully for readers as the heavy weight, higher tier fighters tasked with more initial combat duties to establish and maintain air superiority or at least playing a bigger role in contesting and achieving air superiority. In this sense (as I've defined and mentioned) the J-10 is not a frontline fighter. Like F-16 is not a frontline fighter. In PAF, the J-10 and F-16 are frontline fighter. I've defined frontline fighter as your best fighter or second runner up or at least part of the "best" combination of platforms. J-20 and J-16 are by PLAAF accounts and hints a two member team that are more closely integrated tactically. These are PLAAF frontline. Frontline is your best and the tip of the spear. To take control and make the job easier for your non frontline and the rest.

Can you please read carefully and tell me where I said J-10 and J-16 are not the same generation? I understand my post is long but the details and caveat are mentioned.

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## Zarvan

mudas777 said:


> Some people just never change, time to move on my friend. Indian managed and Israeli control congress are you day dreaming or you had a special sherbet today. Lets get out of the FATF first.


Lot of things are in play. Israeli lobby exists for 70 years still we got weapons

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

tphuang said:


> Will you stop saying things like J-10C is not a frontline fighter for PLAAF? J-10C and J-16 are the same generation fighter. The only reason J-16 will get a longer production run is the same reason F-15EX is still getting produced. PLAAF needs a long range bomb truck and EW platform long after it has large number of stealth aircraft. There is no evidence J-16 technologies in radar and avionics is ahead of J-10C. There is a reason J-10C still does so well against J-16 in DACT. It's a great aircraft.
> 
> Now, as for letting out secrecy. It's definitely a concern for PLAAF that USAF may get a look at it. I think there are certain implicit understanding between PLAAF and PAF on what is okay and what is not okay. After all, USAF does not even let any F-16 users conduct DACT against PLAAF. Which is kind of crazy when you consider that PLAAF essentially conducts DACT with ROCAF F-16Vs on a monthly basis. I suspect that PAF conducting regular exercises with J-10C with non-NATO countries (and probably Turkey) is okay, but PLAAF would not want USAF to get an extended look at it.


I think the PAF will keep the J-10CE close to its chest. Just as the PLAAF doesn't want info on the fighter getting out, the PAF will want to prevent India from knowing much either. For at least the first 5 years, the only F-16s the J-10CE will likely take on are the PAF's F-16s (whose crews have trained in Red Flag, for what it's worth).

But it would be pretty interesting if, one day, Israeli F-16s fly up against Pakistani J-10CEs in some Anatolian Eagle exercise. It'd be pretty awkward...

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## 帅的一匹

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the PAF will keep the J-10CE close to its chest. Just as the PLAAF doesn't want info on the fighter getting out, the PAF will want to prevent India from knowing much either. For at least the first 5 years, the only F-16s the J-10CE will likely take on are the PAF's F-16s (whose crews have trained in Red Flag, for what it's worth).
> 
> But it would be pretty interesting if, one day, Israeli F-16s fly up against Pakistani J-10CEs in some Anatolian Eagle exercise. It'd be pretty awkward...


PAF is very smart, they do know what they should do for its own good.

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## Riz

帅的一匹 said:


> Now PAF can do combat excercise by flying J10cp against F16?


For years and years PAF flying its F-7s with F-16s , F-15 , and F-22 of USAF , it means F-7 extracted all the data of F-22 and F-16s and becomes equivalent of them now

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## mudas777

Zarvan said:


> Lot of things are in play. Israeli lobby exists for 70 years still we got weapons



India was not in the picture at that time and capital hill was not used to dancing to the tunes of the Indian mantra. India and Israel were not strategically that close at that time, since then undisclosed agreements are in place for each other support and aid. 
Unless something drastic happens like 9/11, somehow Kashmir issue resolved or Pakistan leaves Chinese camp altogether or India does something extremely untoward, you are swimming against the tide. 
I will give you credit for your undying optimism baring those 4 above factors, lets not wait for some crumbs and spend our energies on sharpening up J 10.

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## MastanKhan

Irfan Baloch said:


> I don't understand the wholesale butthurt over a hypothetical scenario.
> why have all the bleeding hearts decided that China has placed some sort of a ban on PAF to fly these jets with Western airforces?
> its a two way stream remember, PAF (and in tern China) will also be gathering information about how these Jets fare against the other Western platforms. its not jsut Americans stealing the universal secrets of J-10s.
> 
> moving on, Chinese "fictional" reservations aside, it will be PAF's call whether to deploy these jets in such exercises or not because again .. such information (of a silver bullet) can trickle down to other "allies" of Americans that don't have very "cordial" terms with Pakistan.
> 
> NOW.. F-16 being a whore?
> this Whore has kept the soviets at bay during first Afghan War and kept Indians sleepless since they were acquired and their fears were realized when these same F 16s who call whores shot down two IAF jets and the Modi's pride to the ground.
> 
> 
> sell them out? we are talking J-10 NOT J-20.
> what is so ground breaking and ahead of its time in this modest medium size single engine jet that Americans will be so keen to find out if they haven't done already though their conventional and electronic espionage ? does it carry some plasma shielding and directed energy weapons technology? does it use some phasing technology?



Hi,

People don't understand / comprehend the capabilities of the US. The US has assets that analyze opponents equipment---and there is hardly ever an assessment that misses the mark.

The J 10 C is an extremely capable aircraft---but it is not the aircraft alone---it is the total air combat package that is fighting a war.

Secondly---it is both with the understanding and nod from the chinese that the aircrafts---the JF17's and J10's would be competing against the other air forces---because if they don't compete---how would we know the shortcomings.

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## MastanKhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Nice emotional low performance capability acceptance comments.
> 
> Tactically---it would have been better not to have retaliated at all till the Paf had the capability to smash them to kingdom come in one go.
> 
> Now with this ill-conceived performance---Paf has given all its electronic warfare tactical advantage away just for a little rarararara---and chest thumping---and Paf will never be able to regain that strength again---.
> 
> All the tactical advantage that the Paf had is gone---.


Hi,

When I read what Golda Meir told the american reporter about Prophet Mohammad---that till the last day---the day he died----0ur beloved Prophet Mohammad pbuh was prepared for war---with 8 swords hanging on the wall of his room---it was an eye opener---shocking you might call---when you realize that our Paf gave away 5 billion dollars assigned for a major weapon system---to charity to be looted and plundered---.

But then I also learn---on that same day---the day he died------he possibly was starving as well---because there was no flour in the house and his widow pawned his chain mail to get some flour and oil---.



Zarvan said:


> Lot of things are in play. Israeli lobby exists for 70 years still we got weapons



Hi,

Israeli lobby became strong after the arabs lost the 67 war---. At that time the american realized that they arabs may not offer them much.

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## applesauce

StructE said:


> The relationship between these two countries is symbiotic, there is a two-way mimicry in Armed forces of both countries. Pakistan has provided much needed help to China in the 20th Century. They both provide a physical escape to each other from potential blockades, Sino-Pak Arc creates a by-pass. In addition to this there is 70 years of history of trust which is probably far more important in Eastern-Oriental context. For most people including Millennial Chinese and Pakistanis, it is hard to understand what China has to gain from Pakistan in this day and age (besides the Indian factor) but there is more to it, for both countries this relationship is long term hedge against unknown odds.
> 
> My understanding is that even if Pakistan goes further down in its rabbit hole of corruption and incompetence, China is still not leaving Pakistani side, Pakistan will still be getting diplomatic support, latest tech and weapons on subsidized price. In comparison to North Korea, Pakistan is a thousand times more useful for China, hack they are still holding North Korea's hand.
> 
> In Pakistan's case, Chinese are actually delighted to see Pakistan fully in their camp and out of American Influence. I expect a lot more support and hand holding for the rest of the 21st century.


 and i said absolutely nothing different.

what i said was, *IF *Pakistan went off the deep end and decided to betray china by allowing the americans a deep look into domestic use chinese tech.
with such a betrayal , china would then respond by never allowing pakistan access to such tech again. 

and if push came to shove:

the choice between a Pakistan/india balance subcontinent but the US gets a deep looks at what chinese uses itself.
or
a india dominated subcontinent, but chinese tech is safe from americans.

Then china would choose a indian dominated one because the US is a much bigger fish than india.


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## 帅的一匹

applesauce said:


> and i said absolutely nothing different.
> 
> what i said was, *IF *Pakistan went off the deep end and decided to betray china by allowing the americans a deep look into domestic use chinese tech.
> with such a betrayal , china would then respond by never allowing pakistan access to such tech again.
> 
> and if push came to shove:
> 
> the choice between a Pakistan/india balance subcontinent but the US gets a deep looks at what chinese uses itself.
> or
> a india dominated subcontinent, but chinese tech is safe from americans.
> 
> Then china would choose a indian dominated one because the US is a much bigger fish than india.


Your comment is not realistic, Pakistan government and PAF is brilliant, they will not listen to PDF member as how to deploy J10cp

It won’t surprise if J10cp conduct DACT with UAE Rafale in the future. Let us push J10c to it’s fucking limit.

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## applesauce

帅的一匹 said:


> Your comment is not realistic, Pakistan government and PAF is brilliant, they will not listen to PDF member as how to deploy J10cp



i never said it would happen.

in my other post i literally said i dont think the Pakistani government is that stupid.

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## 帅的一匹

There is no friend or foe forever, geopolitics decide everything.

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## kursed

serenity said:


> J-10C isn't really defined as frontline fighter for PLAAF. Frontline fighter being the top fighters and force multiplier types which would certainly be J-20 and J-16 as frontline. J-10C are support fighters and number fillers. With air combat for air superiority, it is frontline fighters performing major mission of denying airspace and contesting it while taking out strategic assets and pushing ahead to take out launching platforms.





serenity said:


> All things opsec are secretive and sensitive to some degree. J-10C is used as most modern J-10 version in PLAAF. This is not some modernized J-7 which if all revealed and they know about China's 1990s and early 2000s mods for J-7 which is highly limited platform to mod on for 2000s level technology, then fine whatever.


J10C provides baseline info on Chinese tech, Pakistan will not open the doorway to access of Chinese systems to the West. It's not going to happen. Simple. Everything else is just conjuncture. I mean they literally are not even using MB seats on the type, so as to keep access restricted. What does that tell you?

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## Khanivore

It would be interesting to see a PAF J-10C perform at Farnborough or at Paris Air Show. More interesting would be if the Qatari, Egyptian or UAE Rafales are pitched against PAF J-10Cs in an Exercise and how they performed.

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## aliyusuf

StructE said:


> The relationship between these two countries is symbiotic, there is a two-way mimicry in Armed forces of both countries. Pakistan has provided much needed help to China in the 20th Century. They both provide a physical escape to each other from potential blockades, Sino-Pak Arc creates a by-pass. In addition to this there is 70 years of history of trust which is probably far more important in Eastern-Oriental context. For most people including Millennial Chinese and Pakistanis, it is hard to understand what China has to gain from Pakistan in this day and age (besides the Indian factor) but there is more to it, for both countries this relationship is long term hedge against unknown odds.
> 
> My understanding is that even if Pakistan goes further down in its rabbit hole of corruption and incompetence, China is still not leaving Pakistani side, Pakistan will still be getting diplomatic support, latest tech and weapons on subsidized price. In comparison to North Korea, Pakistan is a thousand times more useful for China, hack they are still holding North Korea's hand.
> 
> In Pakistan's case, Chinese are actually delighted to see Pakistan fully in their camp and out of American Influence. I expect a lot more support and hand holding for the rest of the 21st century.


You have summed it up quite aptly.


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## Reichmarshal

帅的一匹 said:


> I think there must be a security protocol signed or mutual understanding regarding J10cp. I don’t even think USA will allow PAF F16 fighters doing excercise with J10cp although they are both your inventory now.


No such protocol exists, PAF can pitch all ac in its inventory against each other to its hearts content

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## Zarvan

mudas777 said:


> India was not in the picture at that time and capital hill was not used to dancing to the tunes of the Indian mantra. India and Israel were not strategically that close at that time, since then undisclosed agreements are in place for each other support and aid.
> Unless something drastic happens like 9/11, somehow Kashmir issue resolved or Pakistan leaves Chinese camp altogether or India does something extremely untoward, you are swimming against the tide.
> I will give you credit for your undying optimism baring those 4 above factors, lets not wait for some crumbs and spend our energies on sharpening up J 10.


I am not optimist without any news. I don't get optimist without nothing. Like I said lot of things are at play here although this Russia and Ukraine thing will complicate things for both India and Pakistan

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## HydNizam

Indians are already scared 😂

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## Zibago

帅的一匹 said:


> There is no friend or foe forever, geopolitics decide everything.


Exactly and now you see US befriending Iran and Venezuela just so it could punish Russia


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## mili

Khanivore said:


> It would be interesting to see a PAF J-10C perform at Farnborough or at Paris Air Show. More interesting would be if the Qatari, Egyptian or UAE Rafales are pitched against PAF J-10Cs in an Exercise and how they performed.


J10C will go to Farnborough or Paris when F15/16/18 go to Zhuhai.

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## Zibago

siegecrossbow said:


> J-10A was already doing great against Gripen in BVR and WVR. They sent J-10C in a effort to do a hard sell the type in Thailand. Unfortunately the Thai are more ambitious and want F-35 instead .


How?





Thailand cuts defence budget again


Thailand plans to cut its defence budget for 2022 in response to the Covid-19 pandemic. It will be the third reduction in military expenditure in consecutive years if...



www.janes.com


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## vi-va

Zibago said:


> Exactly and now you see US befriending Iran and Venezuela just so it could punish Russia


*In 2014, Russia invaded Crimea. 
In 2015, Iran got JCPOA signed. *

Coincident? Probably not.

*In 2017, a pro Putin US president Trump elected.
On 8 May 2018 the United States officially withdrew from JCPOA.*

Coincident? Probably not.

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## Zibago

vi-va said:


> *In 2014, Russia invaded Crimea.
> In 2015, Iran got JCPOA signed. *
> 
> Coincident? Probably not.


And now they are about to reverse it
Btw I do think that aggressive sanctions on Russia will raise prospects of L-15, J-10 and JF-17
A lot of countries will abandon their Russian commitments

You know its so funny watching western powers fully backing Erdogan and MBS who they called a brutal dictator few weeks back
Turns out its all about interests and not about principle

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## White privilege

Will CFTs be installed? How much of a range enhancement would it be??

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## casual

Now that the j10 is exported, hopefully we can finally see what the cockpit looks like.

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## Beast

siegecrossbow said:


> J-10A was already doing great against Gripen in BVR and WVR. They sent J-10C in a effort to do a hard sell the type in Thailand. Unfortunately the Thai are more ambitious and want F-35 instead .


I think you misunderstood RTAF intention. Thailand knows they have no chance to get F-35. The US congress will never approved given Thai connection to PLA. Once US congress reject. It will paved way for RTAF to go for other arms. Btw, PLAAF dont export J-10C unrestricted. Only few selected partner will be approved for J-10C export. The only plane China keen to export widely is JF-17 Blk III. 

During the Singapore Airshow recently, J-10C export are no where to be seen at AVIC booth. AVIC is only actively promoting JF-17 export.

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## araz

GriffinsRule said:


> I anticipate USAF asking PAF to pretty please bring J-10 to the next exercise with them. Will be interesting to see if we take this jet to Anatolian Eagle or not with the NATO presence as well


I suspect not. However the block 3 might go. Just my thought though.
A

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## White privilege

Also how much _restrictions _would be applicable for offensive weapons integration like ALCMs since Pakistan is not a signatory of MTCR?? We have probably integrated _Ra'ad _onto JF-17 and everything affiliated with Thunder development is already sanctioned by the Yanks since long...


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## araz

Khan vilatey said:


> I share your sentiments about feb 2019 but and there is always a but , I see a bigger armed conflict with India over Kashmir. The reasons are more economical than anything else. We need the Skurdu - China road. To secure our economy. We also cannot leave Kashmir to the Indians as we need to ensure our encomic security and protect our trade with Central Asia. our future as people is dependent on looking west to Central Asia and china
> 
> k


I think our goals might have moved on a bit since Kashmir. Think of Bajwa's meeting with Sidhu. The Indian Punjab needs to be freed and independent of India to give us a buffer. My thought on the matter. However to do it tactfully without inviting the ire of the mighty Indian force and their Nuke arsenal is an interesting thoight which might require joint strategy.
A
A

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## The Terminator

Irfan Baloch said:


> I don't understand the wholesale butthurt over a hypothetical scenario.
> why have all the bleeding hearts decided that China has placed some sort of a ban on PAF to fly these jets with Western airforces?
> its a two way stream remember, PAF (and in tern China) will also be gathering information about how these Jets fare against the other Western platforms. its not jsut Americans stealing the universal secrets of J-10s.
> 
> moving on, Chinese "fictional" reservations aside, it will be PAF's call whether to deploy these jets in such exercises or not because again .. such information (of a silver bullet) can trickle down to other "allies" of Americans that don't have very "cordial" terms with Pakistan.
> 
> NOW.. F-16 being a whore?
> this Whore has kept the soviets at bay during first Afghan War and kept Indians sleepless since they were acquired and their fears were realized when these same F 16s who call whores shot down two IAF jets and the Modi's pride to the ground.
> 
> 
> sell them out? we are talking J-10 NOT J-20.
> what is so ground breaking and ahead of its time in this modest medium size single engine jet that Americans will be so keen to find out if they haven't done already though their conventional and electronic espionage ? does it carry some plasma shielding and directed energy weapons technology? does it use some phasing technology?


No it doesn't depend upon PAF's discretion only. Remember Pakistani military never tried to hurt Russians even when they could have stolen and used their weapons and tech lying around in Afghanistan. Rather we purchased Mi-24s from them. So how do you think Pakistan would be able to over rule the Chinese requests if there would be any!

I said it a vvho®e because it's with a lot of countries and even been pitched to our adversary with possibility of ToT as well. I am not questioning the efficacy of that platform and it's service record under PAF's colors. Apart from fighting against the Soviets, it hasn't provided us any major breakthroughs in capability enhancements and reliability of the OEM. But we get both in the shape of JF-17, J-10CP and probably more in the coming future from a trusted strategic partner on the other hand. So it's totally not worth to risk even hypothetically.

"we are talking J-10 NOT J-20. What is so ground breaking" 

Exactly it wouldn't hurt them much as I already mentioned they have J-20 and a lot of homegrown flankers, but would hurt us a lot. As in similar ways we tend to tease the Indians that look we already have access to your brand new state of the art highly expensive toy: The Rafale through our brotherly nations Qatar and Turkey. We already know your future jet in and out. Tested it extensively against our platforms and have damn good idea how much capable your new purchase (silver bullet) gonna be.

other parts doesn't carry any weight to be responded. Like plasma shield

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## Basel

Irfan Baloch said:


> its a hypothetical scenario. Russians let the Indians exercise with Americans using their SU 30 MKIs' J-10 is not the sole front line fighter with some out of the world technology that Americans want to find out. Chinese Flankers and J 20s are the real front line fighters that are far more sensitive and likely face the American or Taiwanese Jets first before or together with J-10.
> again just an assumption. point is, there is a cost and benefit analysis., if benefit outweighs the cost then a country does what suits it.



USA have not allowed Pakistan to field F-16s specially new ones with Chinese aircrafts, this to stop any Chinese access to them so why Pakistan allow US access to Chinese J-10s??

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## jaybird

White privilege said:


> Also how much _restrictions _would be applicable for offensive weapons integration like ALCMs since Pakistan is not a signatory of MTCR?? We have probably integrated _Ra'ad _onto JF-17 and everything affiliated with Thunder development is already sanctioned by the Yanks since long...


Why will there be any restriction applicable to J-10C if PAC Kamra integrate Pakistan's own ALCM on it's own fighter jets? China only export the fighter jet not the ALCM. Customer can add or try to improve the platform's offensive weaponry by themselves.

Also countries are using the loophole of the MTCR by exporting missiles under the range of 300 km and then few years later they miraculously managed to made an indigenous and improved version with extended range way over the 300 km range than the original missile.

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## flyhigh

kursed said:


> J10C provides baseline info on Chinese tech, Pakistan will not open the doorway to access of Chinese systems to the West. It's not going to happen. Simple. Everything else is just conjuncture. I mean they literally are not even using MB seats on the type, so as to keep access restricted. What does that tell you?


Exactly yeah why nobody is discussing enough... how come PAF not using MB seats is a big surprise in it self?????

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## Riz

mili said:


> J10C will go to Farnborough or Paris when F15/16/18 go to Zhuhai.


China would love to see its most superior fighter jet flying by the most professional air-force in farnborough air show

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## The Terminator

帅的一匹 said:


> That’s why J20 is not coming, before the F16 mentality addiction is treated.


@applesauce @serenity @StructE @tphuang 

Don't worry. These are comments from some fanboys about a hypothetical or even a fictional story of their dreams. Could have been due to someone having a lot of wet dreams about the F-16s and terrified to know that J-10Cs are coming so PAF might be no longer able to afford to have more F-16s in future , so a bit constipation might have happened somewhere.😜

Nothing like that would ever be possible in real life, that's for sure 👍.

Even a few sane mind's in India acknowledge that PAK-China relationship isn't merely a transactional one of purchasing and exporting tech and stuff. It's much deep rooted and intertwined to the core of the both nations. So the above surface news of a couple of platforms coming to Pakistan and some infrastructure/route development in CPEC connectivity route are just trailers that go wild in public.

The actual relationship runs subtle but much deeper than that. It's the prominent fruits only that we come to know of.











The last parts of both the videos summarizes it a bit.

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## serenity

The Terminator said:


> @applesauce @serenity @StructE
> 
> Don't worry. These are comments from some fanboys about a hypothetical or even a fictional story of their dreams. Could have been due to someone having a lot of wet dreams about the F-16s and terrified to know that J-10Cs are coming so PAF might be no longer able to afford to have more F-16s in future , so a bit constipation might have happened somewhere.😜
> 
> Nothing like that would ever be possible in real life, that's for sure 👍.
> 
> Even a few sane mind's in India acknowledge that PAK-China relationship isn't merely a transactional one of purchasing and exporting tech and stuff. It's much deep rooted and intertwined to the core of the both nations. So the above surface news of a couple of platforms coming to Pakistan and some infrastructure/route development in CPEC connectivity route are just trailers that go wild in public.
> 
> The actual relationship runs subtle but much deeper than that. It's the prominent fruits only that we come to know of.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last parts of both the videos summarizes it a bit.



I wouldn't pay much attention to that guy. Of course J-20 isn't available for export to Pakistan. It is currently PLAAF only with no plans yet to offer for export. Nothing to do with politics of Pakistan and USA or concerns over such.

As for military cooperation as hinted by Pravin, I don't know. I think sometimes members (and Pravin) see too much into it. Pakistan buying more Chinese weapons (as they have become much more capable over time and suitable also) doesn't necessarily mean anything about cooperative war.

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## Aesterix

帅的一匹 said:


> I think there must be a security protocol signed or mutual understanding regarding J10cp. I don’t even think USA will allow PAF F16 fighters doing excercise with J10cp although they are both your inventory now.


Do you think such an arrangement is practical? Two types of front line fighters of an aor force , can't fly together?


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## The Terminator

serenity said:


> I wouldn't pay much attention to that guy. Of course J-20 isn't available for export to Pakistan. It is currently PLAAF only with no plans yet to offer for export. Nothing to do with politics of Pakistan and USA or concerns over such.
> 
> As for military cooperation as hinted by Pravin, I don't know. I think sometimes members (and Pravin) see too much into it. Pakistan buying more Chinese weapons (as they have become much more capable over time and suitable also) doesn't necessarily mean anything about cooperative war.


But what about cooperative CPEC security in the North 😉.

US did force us a lot to provide them base in our north to keep China in check there. Despite being debted to US aid, their export market, loans/IMF/World Bank and what not but even then we weathered that pressure. Couldn't let that happen anyways.


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## The Terminator

帅的一匹 said:


> I think there must be a security protocol signed or mutual understanding regarding J10cp. I don’t even think USA will allow PAF F16 fighters doing excercise with J10cp although they are both your inventory now.


No, PAF would fly both the jets, infact all of the jets as it pleases within its own airspace. No one's gonna stop us from doing that.

Apart from some differences, J-10 and JF-17 share a similar DNA and we are flying them with whatever jet in PAF inventory we wish to.

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## 帅的一匹

The Terminator said:


> @applesauce @serenity @StructE
> 
> Don't worry. These are comments from some fanboys about a hypothetical or even a fictional story of their dreams. Could have been due to someone having a lot of wet dreams about the F-16s and terrified to know that J-10Cs are coming so PAF might be no longer able to afford to have more F-16s in future , so a bit constipation might have happened somewhere.😜
> 
> Nothing like that would ever be possible in real life, that's for sure 👍.
> 
> Even a few sane mind's in India acknowledge that PAK-China relationship isn't merely a transactional one of purchasing and exporting tech and stuff. It's much deep rooted and intertwined to the core of the both nations. So the above surface news of a couple of platforms coming to Pakistan and some infrastructure/route development in CPEC connectivity route are just trailers that go wild in public.
> 
> The actual relationship runs subtle but much deeper than that. It's the prominent fruits only that we come to know of.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last parts of both the videos summarizes it a bit.


I will congratulate PAF if they get 50 units of F16 block70 next morning, every bit of it will be used to protect Pakistan sky. I know F16 means a lot to common military fans of Pakistan, the confidence it gave PAF to deal with IAF. Geopolitics have changed dramatically since 1980s, it’s time to move on .

Once upon a time, F16 is a dream fighter jet of China military fans, now we have J10c and J20 in our hands, so people will always have to move on and look into the future.

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## The Terminator

帅的一匹 said:


> I will congratulate PAF if they get 50 units of F16 block70 next morning, every bit of it will be used to protect Pakistan sky. I know F16 means a lot to common military fans of Pakistan, the confidence it gave PAF to deal with IAF. Geopolitics have changed dramatically since 1980s, it’s time to move on .


May be J-10CP induction could prove to be a gateway of strong persuasions for the F-16V Block70 upgrades to come here in Pakistan. You know what I mean! 







*As JF-17 Thunder proved to be enabler of more modern F-16s to follow and join PAF. US every now and then needs that kind of persuasions. 🥰🥰🥰😍😍🥰


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## White privilege

帅的一匹 said:


> it’s time to move on .


About time

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## Talon

The Eagle said:


> So the Rafiqui will have tail chopper Thunders with Cobras, Eagles or Zarrars dragons.


Cobras = Saff Shikan


帅的一匹 said:


> I think there must be a security protocol signed or mutual understanding regarding J10cp. I don’t even think USA will allow PAF F16 fighters doing excercise with J10cp although they are both your inventory now.


No such restrictions

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## White privilege

The Terminator said:


> May be J-10CP induction could prove to be a gateway of strong persuasions for the F-16V Block70 upgrades to come here in Pakistan. You know what I mean!


And what would the US get in return for such a throwaway? Denouncement of Russia, back to American camp?? We must be ready for something even more than Pressler which grounded our F-16s.US has _built this narrative _back home that Pakistan is a sleazy backstabber so everything that is given to it is a _Presidential Majboori _aka _order _ not something particularly popular in the houses...


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## Readerdefence

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the PAF will keep the J-10CE close to its chest. Just as the PLAAF doesn't want info on the fighter getting out, the PAF will want to prevent India from knowing much either. For at least the first 5 years, the only F-16s the J-10CE will likely take on are the PAF's F-16s (whose crews have trained in Red Flag, for what it's worth).
> 
> But it would be pretty interesting if, one day, Israeli F-16s fly up against Pakistani J-10CEs in some Anatolian Eagle exercise. It'd be pretty awkward...


Hi Bilal 
when PAF pitched J10c against F16 in their own exercises 
is it possible for USA to get radar signatures of J10c or other features which China & pakiStan do not want to reveal openly 
if it’s possible for you to comment on my post 
thank you


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## Readerdefence

Riz said:


> China would love to see its most superior fighter jet flying by the most professional air-force in farnborough air show


Hi Riz in farnborough my understanding is you display your own product so it can attract some foreign customer for future purchases 
I’m sure Chinese must have participated with their own product as Pakistan did with their jf17s beside that J10c being something new for outside China PAF might not want to display its features 
your comments will be appreciated 
thank you


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## Engima Chaudhry

The Terminator said:


> Lol F-16 is like an open book to the world. Giving away J-10C's secrets that cheap would have hurt Pakistan more than anyone else. It's role in PLAAF is to just beef up the numbers of 4,4++ gen fighters. Their main Frontline fighters are J-20 followed by a plethora of Chinese flanker variants.
> 
> What Pakistan would loose through that hypothetical mental ma$tu®b@tion ! 👇
> 
> It's most reliable enigmatic Frontline fighter jet, the silver bullet (which no one knows about in depth), tip of the spear. And what we would get in return? F-16 practically the oldest vvho®e of the 4th gen fighters with relatively new bells and whistles from a country we can't attribute as a dependable, trusted friend. US would gladly donate the platforms in our use to our adversary to play with if the need arises.
> 
> Don't forget how you got upgrades and BVR capability for the falcons, because you were going to induct PL-12/SD-10s anyways that too on a local JV platform. Simultaneous induction of JF-17 Block 3 and J-10CP could further pave the way for our F-16s to get to the V standard. Be focused, realistic and honest to your cause.
> 
> That was useless proposition of you indeed
> 
> 
> Exactly. What a sh!+load of mental.....


I agree 👍. Any leakage of j10c potential would harm our interests. Like tha episode of a Christian pilot of Iraq defecting to Israel with mig 21 in 60s. It led to complete annihilation of Egyptian air force. 
Falcons, anyway, come with a lot of handicaps and strings .


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## Engima Chaudhry

帅的一匹 said:


> Now PAF can do combat excercise by flying J10cp against F16?


Inside Pakistan, of course. Paf has own f16s . Outside the country or with foreign air forces , i doubt that. No air force shares its secrets, I suppose.



帅的一匹 said:


> I think there must be a security protocol signed or mutual understanding regarding J10cp. I don’t even think USA will allow PAF F16 fighters doing excercise with J10cp although they are both your inventory now.


If I remember correctly, us had a 10 year restriction on f16 block 52 participation. That period is over. So I don't think there should be a problem in j10 and f16 of paf going toe to toe.

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## That Guy

Readerdefence said:


> Hi Bilal
> when PAF pitched J10c against F16 in their own exercises
> is it possible for USA to get radar signatures of J10c or other features which China & pakiStan do not want to reveal openly
> if it’s possible for you to comment on my post
> thank you


No.


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## The Terminator

Beast said:


> I think you misunderstood RTAF intention. Thailand knows they have no chance to get F-35. The US congress will never approved given Thai connection to PLA. Once US congress reject. It will paved way for RTAF to go for other arms. Btw, PLAAF dont export J-10C unrestricted. Only few selected partner will be approved for J-10C export. The only plane China keen to export widely is JF-17 Blk III.
> 
> During the Singapore Airshow recently, J-10C export are no where to be seen at AVIC booth. AVIC is only actively promoting JF-17 export.


Which means more $$$$$ for Pakistan on Thunder's sales. Nice!


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## Engima Chaudhry

The Terminator said:


> May be J-10CP induction could prove to be a gateway of strong persuasions for the F-16V Block70 upgrades to come here in Pakistan. You know what I mean!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *As JF-17 Thunder proved to be enabler of more modern F-16s to follow and join PAF. US every now and then needs that kind of persuasions. 🥰🥰🥰😍😍🥰


That would be an ideal situation. 
But , if I remeber correctly, the iff of all f16 are biased and are programmed to not lock on to us and Israeli air force. ( the Turkish f 16s could not lock on to Israeli f16s, and the turks then demanded their own iff software). 
J10cp can and will lock on to usaf fighters.
In my view that's a big plus.



The Terminator said:


> Which means more $$$$$ for Pakistan on Thunder's sales. Nice!


It is the same way f5 was meant to be exported to allies , and f16 was not supposed to be given to any non nato country. Jf 17 is meant for export and j10cp restricted to only close allies.


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## Irfan Baloch

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> People don't understand / comprehend the capabilities of the US. The US has assets that analyze opponents equipment---and there is hardly ever an assessment that misses the mark.
> 
> The J 10 C is an extremely capable aircraft---but it is not the aircraft alone---it is the total air combat package that is fighting a war.
> 
> Secondly---it is both with the understanding and nod from the chinese that the aircrafts---the JF17's and J10's would be competing against the other air forces---because if they don't compete---how would we know the shortcomings.


bless you man.
I was just going to write that last bit.
how would PAF verify J10 capability and its integration in its doctrine without putting it against airforce other than China?

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## araz

The Terminator said:


> May be J-10CP induction could prove to be a gateway of strong persuasions for the F-16V Block70 upgrades to come here in Pakistan. You know what I mean!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *As JF-17 Thunder proved to be enabler of more modern F-16s to follow and join PAF. US every now and then needs that kind of persuasions. 🥰🥰🥰😍😍🥰


Lately PAF has tried to establish a 2 tier system with Western platforms and Chinese ones so we dont get hamstrung in case hostilities break out. This maybe a part of the same plan. Secondly it seems we need to replace platcorms which have used up their shelflives so we bought a newer platcorm to replace them. Lastly newer capabilities have been acquired along with the newer platform. All in all PAF has come out stronger with this induction.
On the subject of training with F16s within PAF, I do not know hpw/this can be avpided. Intersquadron combat exercises get organized regularly and F16s have gone up against JFT. They will go up against J10s as well.

F16 if offered ( big if) will still be bought if funds allow due to their utility within the PAF setup.
A


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## FuturePAF

Weapons of the J-10

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## siegecrossbow

Zibago said:


> How?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thailand cuts defence budget again
> 
> 
> Thailand plans to cut its defence budget for 2022 in response to the Covid-19 pandemic. It will be the third reduction in military expenditure in consecutive years if...
> 
> 
> 
> www.janes.com



Maybe F-35 was just an excuse? We’ll see.


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## Xone

MastanKhan said:


> All the tactical advantage that the Paf had is gone---.


listening to this does not bring any difference. No one knows beforehand that PAF has such an advantage over IAF going to the real theatre. At least knowing the lack of an edge over rivals will ask for more endeavors to do better in training and acquisitions of the latest tech weapons. 
to perform better is not similar to knowing what is better. the entire world knows what is the stealth fighter but only a few have them.
PAF got J-10C to restore the lost advantage once again. Is not it so? 
having western and Chinese systems at the same time brings forth versatility to the PAF.


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## The Terminator

serenity said:


> J-10C isn't really defined as frontline fighter for PLAAF. Frontline fighter being the top fighters and force multiplier types which would certainly be J-20 and J-16 as frontline. J-10C are support fighters and number fillers. With air combat for air superiority, it is frontline fighters performing major mission of denying airspace and contesting it while taking out strategic assets and pushing ahead to take out launching platforms.
> 
> Rest assured that J-16 and J-20 technologies are ahead of J-10C in terms of electronics, sensors, and communication equipment that are fitted simply because these fighters hold those harder and more important mission profiles.
> 
> BUT in this case PLAAF uses almost the same (but not the same) J-10C with PAF now. And despite not being frontline, it is important enough for opsec to ban any types of exercises with any western nation unless China has some say in how the platform is used in those exercises. China exercising with Thailand with J-10B/C and Gripen C is more to benefit of China's side since it gets to evaluate Gipren C's performance (although in the hands of Thai airforce) and Thai airforce are far closer politically to China than to the US and won't be telling them much if anything about J-10's performance while China gets first hand direct experience flying with the Gripens. There are a lot of public information about Gripens exercising against F-16, F-22, F-15, Eurofighter Typhoon etc.
> 
> 
> 
> It depends how it is used. Russian airforce fighters have for decades become lagged in electronic warfare domain - EA, ECM, ECCM and so on. Even in sensors their first generation AESA for Mig-35 was not used. Their second generation is on Himalaya system for Su-57 and only in service in recent years but Su-57 produced in barely single digit numbers rate per year perhaps due to cost compared to Su-35 and overall capability improvement over Su-35 not being worth those extra price? No idea why they don't produce Su-57 in huge numbers. Russian reports indicate they would have been producing Su-57 in double digit numbers per year and before that suggested it is unnecessary. It could be production engineering side being more difficult and extremely costly. Manufacturing is in many ways the harder challenge compared to design believe it or not.
> 
> 
> 
> J-11A beat Gripen C in dogfighting by HUGE margins it was like 15 to 1 or something similar to that ratio. J-11A lost to Gripen C by huge margins in first exercises back in like 2015 or something. Indian and western reporting only focused on J-11A losing in BVR but of course it would lose since J-11A is from the 1980s level of eletronic and computing tech with 1990s missiles at best (in fact actually 1970s missiles level due to only having oldest R-77 and old R-27). Anyway this was like comparing F-16A with Gripen C in BVR. Of course Gripen C will beat F-16A in BVR.
> 
> It was very surprising that J-11A beat Gripen in dogfighting though. Showing PLAAF training in WVR for J-11A may have been emphasis and I bet PLAAF uses J-11A as missile platform that is simply networked. But it's missiles are too old to be long range and I guess they also use the whole platform as a sneak platform operating in mountainous areas only where the radar is switched off, feed data through awacs to approach targets slowing through mountain valleys and then networked to take 50km range shots with their very old BVR missiles and then sneak in for WVR and then dogfight.
> 
> J-10B destroyed Gripen C in both WVR and BVR. J-10C against Gripen C was again another breeze. Gripen C is also getting old. No surprise the much more modern J-10C had easy time in BVR. I doubt Chinese side would use too much electronic abilities against Gripen C. There is not much point since Gripen C lacks phased array and any good electronic abilities because Swedes may not sell Thailand their secret electronic stuff. No one sells the top secret electronic stuff to the point I even doubt China would sell Pakistan China's frontline electronic weapons. J-20's surely would be out of the question. J-16's and J-10's are similar tech level I guess but J-16's would probably have more space and available power.
> 
> 
> 
> Russians placed lots of conditions on how Indians can use their Su-30 and this is Su-30 with really not that much to give away. Their electronic techs - radar and comms that were limited are not that capable or sensitive but still it is opsec issue and opsec issue even for low tier stuff is still sensitive given the entire RuAF depends on Su-30 and even lesser fighters back in those days and to some degree still does.
> 
> Yes J-10 is not PLAAF frontline fighter or top level fighter BUT Americans do still want to find out anything they can.
> 
> America has bought and stolen lots of adversary technologies from low low level boring stuff like anti tank missiles to low tech (to be honest) air defence like Pantsir (they stole many in Libya and Syria wars) and bought many more on the blackmarket... all of this stuff isn't necessarily just to copy but first to study and find how it works, what it is strong in and weak in so that they are better able to defeat or counter them. The Americans got their hands on many Kh-31 and even developed their own version (you can call it copied or whatever) just so they can practice intercepting Kh-31. They even improved the Kh-31 but for the purpose of simulating more accurately for intercepting it, they kept most of it as it is.
> 
> J-10 may not be as sensitive for China but China has around 500 + J-10s and if the adversary learns a lot of details about it, it is definitely still a thing that is sensitive. This is not just about one particular missile or smaller weapon.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree mostly with what you've said.
> 
> But it should be understood that as less capable as J-10 is compared to J-16 and J-20 in not just performance but also how it is used (not frontline), this is still an opsec issue and hence still going to be kept away from Americans and exercises or only used in exercises with lots of conditions of what cannot be used and switched on.
> 
> Americans would still be keen to learn whatever just to gather precious intel. Just like China would also be keen to even get some NLAWs to study. It isn't to copy unless there are good ideas to use and copy but it is to learn about their level, what their thinking is in development, their manufacturing and industrial level, their cost associated and how much they spend on making it, the capabiltiy and weaknesses and strengths of this thing, and so on.
> 
> There are many many things to tell from even a small thing because you can combine it with other knowledge. I think many members in this forum miss stuff like this. Their thinking is too 1 dimensional - getting hands on an actual piece of weapon = to copy.
> 
> All these sides would love to even find out about each other's earliest 4th generation aircraft.
> 
> It is all technical stuff to assess technical level at a certain time and their industrial level and how much importance and resources the other devoted to this and how important the other seemingly places on this particular equipment.
> 
> So much to tell from something simple. If USA can get hands on a piece of 1960s Chinese thermonuclear weapon design, the Americans would love it! Does it mean they want to copy it? Of course not there is nothing for them to copy and actually adopt instead of modern own designs. Same with vice versa. Nothing to adopt anymore and copy but lots and lots to reveal perhaps even the entire configuration although it is said the American Teller Ulam configuration design is known quite widely and used by many nations. China using Yu Min configuration design is unique in the world and intelligence have long been after this design type if nothing more than to learn about it if not adopt and copy.
> 
> All things opsec are secretive and sensitive to some degree. J-10C is used as most modern J-10 version in PLAAF. This is not some modernized J-7 which if all revealed and they know about China's 1990s and early 2000s mods for J-7 which is highly limited platform to mod on for 2000s level technology, then fine whatever.


If you have some then plz share pictures here with J-10 carrying full weapons package especially the guided ones.

And also range of different guided bombs/missiles used on J-10 in ground attack role.

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## serenity

The Terminator said:


> If you have some then plz share pictures here with J-10 carrying full weapons package especially the guided ones.
> 
> And also range of different guided bombs/missiles used on J-10 in ground attack role.














I remember seeing YJ-91 carried on the inner pylons too not just guided bombs. Someone else may have a photo. But basically those pylons can carry ordinance and not just fuel tanks.

It is a matter of switching the pylons from those that can pump and deliver fuel to engines to weapons pylon connected to weapons suite and sensors for comms and guidance etc. Explained by leakers as "different wiring" required for ground crew.

Normally most missions will require fuel tanks. Especially peacetime photos. J-10 nearly always carrying fuel tanks in those two pylons or pylons empty.

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## White privilege

Hodor said:


> Cobras = Saff Shikan


So _Tail Choppers _and _Saf Shikkan _(previously _Cobras) _assets would relocate to Rafiqui, opening up two squadron slots at Minhas.That means both J-10 squadrons would be based at Kamra.About right??


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## Zibago

siegecrossbow said:


> Maybe F-35 was just an excuse? We’ll see.


F-35 is a very expensive platform I am not sure they can field it in large enough numbers
The only western platform they can afford in their budget is the Gripen


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## vi-va

serenity said:


> View attachment 821267
> 
> 
> View attachment 821268
> 
> 
> I remember seeing YJ-91 carried on the inner pylons too not just guided bombs. Someone else may have a photo. But basically those pylons can carry ordinance and not just fuel tanks.
> 
> It is a matter of switching the pylons from those that can pump and deliver fuel to engines to weapons pylon connected to weapons suite and sensors for comms and guidance etc. Explained by leakers as "different wiring" required for ground crew.
> 
> Normally most missions will require fuel tanks. Especially peacetime photos. J-10 nearly always carrying fuel tanks in those two pylons or pylons empty.


*Content in Chinese(captured from the pic)*

"猛龙"的进化

浅析歼10战斗机的多用途发展 

歼10C在攻击能力方面相对于B型有了进一步的提升、并且对机内相关探测、航电以及控制系统进行了升级完善，可以更为有效的支持新型空地（舰）导弹武器使用，对地攻击能力得到了很大的扩展，可以在中近距离执行高强度攻击作战任务，一定程度上弥补了中国空军现代高性能多用途战斗机数量不足的问题

新型有源相控阵雷达不仅在对空性能上表现优秀、同时在对（海）功能方面也有着更高的性能，可以更好地支持不同类型精确制导攻击弹药的使用

空中加油能力可以保证歼10C在执行远程对地（海）攻击作战时拥有更大的自由度和更强的适应能力


歼10C的进气道下的2个小型挂点（C）也对相关电气接口进行了改进，可以根据任务需要挂载电子战、数据通信、光学指示等不同用途的吊舱

歼10C的翼下内侧挂点（A）仍然存在着与A型相同的问题，这一点并没有因为多用途能力的增强而得到彻底的改善。不过其武器挂载能力却有了进一步提高，可以携带尺寸和质量更大的攻击武器（如1吨级制导炸弹），一定程度上弥补了该处挂点无法挂载导弹武器的缺陷

歼F10C的外侧挂点（D）仍然以挂载近距空空弹为主，挂载能力并没有

歼10C翼下中部挂点（B）的挂弹种类增加，除了常规制导炸弹外还可以满足包括反雷达导弹、中远程空地导弹、反舰导弹等各类型导弹武器的挂载，使歼10C具备视距外对地精确打击能力

虽然歼10C腹部的4个挂点，特别是后部2个（E）受到空间的限制仍无法挂载大型武器，但随着中国新一代小型制导弹药研制的突破，100、150、250千克级别的一系列红外、卫星、激光制导炸弹已经开始装备，这对于发挥这4个小型挂点的利用率、增强歼10C的攻击能力将发挥十分重要作用

歼10C在执行对空作战时，极限条件下可以携带6枚中距空空弹和2枚近距空空弹（A），在数量上与重型战斗机本质上没有差别。特别是最内侧挂点通过换装弹射转接梁实现了中距弹的弹射发射，避免了早期只能采用导轨发射适应性差的问题

歼10C在执行对地攻击任务时，可以根据作战距离及任务的需要携带不同的攻击弹药，例如A装态中可以携带3个副油箱和2枚超音速反雷达（反舰）导弹对地而雷达和水而舰艇实施打击（B状态则为2枚中远程空地导弹）、同时还可以携带2枚格斗弹用于自卫。根据所携带导弹类型的不同、在进气道下的2个挂点还可携带相关数据传输吊舱及电子战吊舱。此时，歼10C的攻击范围不低于800千米。如果攻击范围更小一些，在只携带1个机腹副油箱的情况下在翼下挂载4枚500千克各类型制导炸弹或在携带2个翼下副油箱的情况下可在翼下、机腹部挂载3枚500千克制导炸弹及相关吊舱。这种弹药挂栽能力实际上已经与重型战斗轰炸机或多用途战斗机没有太大的差距，作为中型平台来说已经非常优秀了

随着一系列小型制导弹药的装备，歼10C的对地攻击能力获得了极大提升，特别是在执行近距离空中支援任务时，其可以携带足够数量的弹药用于对地面多个目标的打击，不仅打击精度可以得到保证，同时攻击距离也将由常规弹药的几千米增加到十几乃至几十千米，战场生存能力也将因此大为提升

*Machine translation:*

The Evolution of "Vigorous Dragon"


A Brief Analysis of the Multi-purpose Development of the J-10 Fighter


Compared with the B-type, the attack capability of the J-10C has been further improved, and the related detection, avionics and control systems in the aircraft have been upgraded and improved, which can more effectively support the use of new air-to-ground (ship) missile weapons, and to ground The attack capability has been greatly expanded, and it can perform high-intensity attack combat missions at medium and short distances, which to a certain extent makes up for the insufficient number of modern high-performance multi-role fighters of the Chinese Air Force


The new active phased array radar not only has excellent performance against air, but also has higher performance against (sea) functions, which can better support the use of different types of precision-guided attack munitions


The aerial refueling capability can ensure that the J-10C has greater freedom and greater adaptability when performing long-range ground (sea) attack operations


The two small hanging points (C) under the air intake of the J-10C have also improved the relevant electrical interfaces, and can mount pods for different purposes such as electronic warfare, data communication, and optical indication according to the needs of the mission.


The J-10C's underwing inboard hanging point (A) still has the same problem as the A type, which has not been completely improved by the enhanced multi-purpose capability. However, its weapon mounting capacity has been further improved, and it can carry attack weapons with larger size and mass (such as 1-ton guided bombs), which to a certain extent makes up for the defect that missile weapons cannot be mounted at the hanging point.


The outer hanging point (D) of the JF10C is still mainly used to mount short-range air-to-air bombs, and the mounting capacity is not


The types of hanging bombs (B) under the wing of the J-10C have been increased. In addition to conventional guided bombs, it can also meet the loading of various types of missile weapons including anti-radar missiles, medium and long-range air-to-ground missiles, and anti-ship missiles, making the J-10C capable of visual inspection. Long-range precision strike capability


Although the four hanging points on the abdomen of the J-10C, especially the two rear ones (E), are still unable to mount large weapons due to space constraints, with the breakthrough in the development of a new generation of small guided munitions in China, the 100, 150, and 250 kg class A series of infrared, satellite, and laser-guided bombs have been equipped, which will play a very important role in giving full play to the utilization of these four small hanging points and enhancing the attack capability of the J-10C.


When the J-10C performs anti-air combat, it can carry 6 medium-range air-to-air bombs and 2 short-range air-to-air bombs (A) under extreme conditions, which is essentially the same as that of heavy fighter jets. In particular, the innermost hanging point realizes the ejection of medium-range projectiles by replacing the ejection adapter beam, avoiding the problem of poor adaptability of only using guide rails in the early stage.


When the J-10C is performing a ground attack mission, it can carry different attack ammunition according to the combat distance and the needs of the mission. For example, in the A-load state, it can carry 3 auxiliary fuel tanks and 2 supersonic anti-radar (anti-ship) missiles to the ground and radar Heshui and ships carry out strikes (2 medium and long-range air-to-ground missiles in B state), and can also carry 2 fighting bombs for self-defense. According to the different types of missiles carried, the two hanging points under the air intake can also carry related data transmission pods and electronic warfare pods. At this time, the attack range of the J-10C is not less than 800 kilometers. If the attack range is smaller, you can mount 4 500kg guided bombs of various types under the wing with only 1 belly drop tank or 3 under the wing and under the belly with 2 under-wing drop tanks 500kg guided bombs and associated pods. This kind of ammunition mounting capability is actually not much different from that of heavy fighter-bombers or multi-role fighters. As a medium-sized platform, it is already very good.

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## TheTallGuy

serenity said:


> I wouldn't pay much attention to that guy. Of course J-20 isn't available for export to Pakistan




Lets put our Hands together and pray to All Mighty! 

please PAF gets J20A soon!

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## The Terminator

vi-va said:


> *Content in Chinese(captured from the pic)*
> 
> "猛龙"的进化
> 
> 浅析歼10战斗机的多用途发展
> 
> 歼10C在攻击能力方面相对于B型有了进一步的提升、并且对机内相关探测、航电以及控制系统进行了升级完善，可以更为有效的支持新型空地（舰）导弹武器使用，对地攻击能力得到了很大的扩展，可以在中近距离执行高强度攻击作战任务，一定程度上弥补了中国空军现代高性能多用途战斗机数量不足的问题
> 
> 新型有源相控阵雷达不仅在对空性能上表现优秀、同时在对（海）功能方面也有着更高的性能，可以更好地支持不同类型精确制导攻击弹药的使用
> 
> 空中加油能力可以保证歼10C在执行远程对地（海）攻击作战时拥有更大的自由度和更强的适应能力
> 
> 
> 歼10C的进气道下的2个小型挂点（C）也对相关电气接口进行了改进，可以根据任务需要挂载电子战、数据通信、光学指示等不同用途的吊舱
> 
> 歼10C的翼下内侧挂点（A）仍然存在着与A型相同的问题，这一点并没有因为多用途能力的增强而得到彻底的改善。不过其武器挂载能力却有了进一步提高，可以携带尺寸和质量更大的攻击武器（如1吨级制导炸弹），一定程度上弥补了该处挂点无法挂载导弹武器的缺陷
> 
> 歼F10C的外侧挂点（D）仍然以挂载近距空空弹为主，挂载能力并没有
> 
> 歼10C翼下中部挂点（B）的挂弹种类增加，除了常规制导炸弹外还可以满足包括反雷达导弹、中远程空地导弹、反舰导弹等各类型导弹武器的挂载，使歼10C具备视距外对地精确打击能力
> 
> 虽然歼10C腹部的4个挂点，特别是后部2个（E）受到空间的限制仍无法挂载大型武器，但随着中国新一代小型制导弹药研制的突破，100、150、250千克级别的一系列红外、卫星、激光制导炸弹已经开始装备，这对于发挥这4个小型挂点的利用率、增强歼10C的攻击能力将发挥十分重要作用
> 
> 歼10C在执行对空作战时，极限条件下可以携带6枚中距空空弹和2枚近距空空弹（A），在数量上与重型战斗机本质上没有差别。特别是最内侧挂点通过换装弹射转接梁实现了中距弹的弹射发射，避免了早期只能采用导轨发射适应性差的问题
> 
> 歼10C在执行对地攻击任务时，可以根据作战距离及任务的需要携带不同的攻击弹药，例如A装态中可以携带3个副油箱和2枚超音速反雷达（反舰）导弹对地而雷达和水而舰艇实施打击（B状态则为2枚中远程空地导弹）、同时还可以携带2枚格斗弹用于自卫。根据所携带导弹类型的不同、在进气道下的2个挂点还可携带相关数据传输吊舱及电子战吊舱。此时，歼10C的攻击范围不低于800千米。如果攻击范围更小一些，在只携带1个机腹副油箱的情况下在翼下挂载4枚500千克各类型制导炸弹或在携带2个翼下副油箱的情况下可在翼下、机腹部挂载3枚500千克制导炸弹及相关吊舱。这种弹药挂栽能力实际上已经与重型战斗轰炸机或多用途战斗机没有太大的差距，作为中型平台来说已经非常优秀了
> 
> 随着一系列小型制导弹药的装备，歼10C的对地攻击能力获得了极大提升，特别是在执行近距离空中支援任务时，其可以携带足够数量的弹药用于对地面多个目标的打击，不仅打击精度可以得到保证，同时攻击距离也将由常规弹药的几千米增加到十几乃至几十千米，战场生存能力也将因此大为提升
> 
> *Machine translation:*
> 
> The Evolution of "Vigorous Dragon"
> 
> 
> A Brief Analysis of the Multi-purpose Development of the J-10 Fighter
> 
> 
> Compared with the B-type, the attack capability of the J-10C has been further improved, and the related detection, avionics and control systems in the aircraft have been upgraded and improved, which can more effectively support the use of new air-to-ground (ship) missile weapons, and to ground The attack capability has been greatly expanded, and it can perform high-intensity attack combat missions at medium and short distances, which to a certain extent makes up for the insufficient number of modern high-performance multi-role fighters of the Chinese Air Force
> 
> 
> The new active phased array radar not only has excellent performance against air, but also has higher performance against (sea) functions, which can better support the use of different types of precision-guided attack munitions
> 
> 
> The aerial refueling capability can ensure that the J-10C has greater freedom and greater adaptability when performing long-range ground (sea) attack operations
> 
> 
> The two small hanging points (C) under the air intake of the J-10C have also improved the relevant electrical interfaces, and can mount pods for different purposes such as electronic warfare, data communication, and optical indication according to the needs of the mission.
> 
> 
> The J-10C's underwing inboard hanging point (A) still has the same problem as the A type, which has not been completely improved by the enhanced multi-purpose capability. However, its weapon mounting capacity has been further improved, and it can carry attack weapons with larger size and mass (such as 1-ton guided bombs), which to a certain extent makes up for the defect that missile weapons cannot be mounted at the hanging point.
> 
> 
> The outer hanging point (D) of the JF10C is still mainly used to mount short-range air-to-air bombs, and the mounting capacity is not
> 
> 
> The types of hanging bombs (B) under the wing of the J-10C have been increased. In addition to conventional guided bombs, it can also meet the loading of various types of missile weapons including anti-radar missiles, medium and long-range air-to-ground missiles, and anti-ship missiles, making the J-10C capable of visual inspection. Long-range precision strike capability
> 
> 
> Although the four hanging points on the abdomen of the J-10C, especially the two rear ones (E), are still unable to mount large weapons due to space constraints, with the breakthrough in the development of a new generation of small guided munitions in China, the 100, 150, and 250 kg class A series of infrared, satellite, and laser-guided bombs have been equipped, which will play a very important role in giving full play to the utilization of these four small hanging points and enhancing the attack capability of the J-10C.
> 
> 
> When the J-10C performs anti-air combat, it can carry 6 medium-range air-to-air bombs and 2 short-range air-to-air bombs (A) under extreme conditions, which is essentially the same as that of heavy fighter jets. In particular, the innermost hanging point realizes the ejection of medium-range projectiles by replacing the ejection adapter beam, avoiding the problem of poor adaptability of only using guide rails in the early stage.
> 
> 
> When the J-10C is performing a ground attack mission, it can carry different attack ammunition according to the combat distance and the needs of the mission. For example, in the A-load state, it can carry 3 auxiliary fuel tanks and 2 supersonic anti-radar (anti-ship) missiles to the ground and radar Heshui and ships carry out strikes (2 medium and long-range air-to-ground missiles in B state), and can also carry 2 fighting bombs for self-defense. According to the different types of missiles carried, the two hanging points under the air intake can also carry related data transmission pods and electronic warfare pods. At this time, the attack range of the J-10C is not less than 800 kilometers. If the attack range is smaller, you can mount 4 500kg guided bombs of various types under the wing with only 1 belly drop tank or 3 under the wing and under the belly with 2 under-wing drop tanks 500kg guided bombs and associated pods. This kind of ammunition mounting capability is actually not much different from that of heavy fighter-bombers or multi-role fighters. As a medium-sized platform, it is already very good.


By reading a first few lines, a question stuck in my mind but don't know whether I should ask or not. It can surely open a whole new can of worms of chaos! 🤔


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## Dil Pakistan

HydNizam said:


> Indians are already scared 😂
> View attachment 821215



IAF should prepare new patches: "PL-15 dodgers".

Reactions: Like Like:
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## ZedZeeshan

Engima Chaudhry said:


> Viper welcoming the "sokaan ".
> That's interesting.


I love your reply..


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## Zibago

TheTallGuy said:


> Lets put our Hands together and pray to All Mighty!
> 
> please PAF gets J20A soon!


We can't afford it even if its given to us for free also its not really suitable for our doctrine


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## Readerdefence

That Guy said:


> No.


Hi thx for your reply so how come IAF did not use their radar signatures in USA with su30 pitched in Red flag in lieu of your answer I presume that USA won’t be able to access PAF vipers online data while flying out with j10
if possible to shed some more light on this
thank you



serenity said:


> View attachment 821267
> 
> 
> View attachment 821268
> 
> 
> I remember seeing YJ-91 carried on the inner pylons too not just guided bombs. Someone else may have a photo. But basically those pylons can carry ordinance and not just fuel tanks.
> 
> It is a matter of switching the pylons from those that can pump and deliver fuel to engines to weapons pylon connected to weapons suite and sensors for comms and guidance etc. Explained by leakers as "different wiring" required for ground crew.
> 
> Normally most missions will require fuel tanks. Especially peacetime photos. J-10 nearly always carrying fuel tanks in those two pylons or pylons empty.


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## lightning F57

Anyone know the difference between J-10CE and J-10C. Apologies if already answered.

Also which one has Pak got, J-10CE, J-10CP, I am confused!


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## That Guy

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thx for your reply so how come IAF did not use their radar signatures in USA with su30 pitched in Red flag in lieu of your answer I presume that USA won’t be able to access PAF vipers online data while flying out with j10
> if possible to shed some more light on this
> thank you


You'd have to ask the IAF.

As for the vipers, no the USA won't be able to access PAF data.

The PAF is 100% gonna pit the J10-C against the block 52 in its inventory, and compare the two...

...but the US won't have access to that data, unless it's directly spying on the PAF.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Readerdefence

Dil Pakistan said:


> IAF should prepare new patches: "PL-15 dodgers".


Hi any confirmation about PL15 version of missile PAF is getting for their birds 
thank you


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## The Terminator

lightning F57 said:


> Anyone know the difference between J-10CE and J-10C. Apologies if already answered.


Yes obviously it's the "E"

Reactions: Haha Haha:
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## Dil Pakistan

lightning F57 said:


> Anyone know the difference between J-10CE and J-10C. Apologies if already answered.


J-10CE ends with an E; whereas J-10C ends with C

Reactions: Haha Haha:
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## JohnWick

A question @Deino
F-35 can carry 14 BVR missiles
F-15 can carry 14 BVR missiles
F/A-18 super Hornet can carry 10 BVRs
F/A-18 Hornet can carry 8 BVRs
How many J-10 can carry only 4 ?

Reactions: Haha Haha:
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## Dil Pakistan

Readerdefence said:


> Hi any confirmation about PL15 version of missile PAF is getting for their birds
> thank you



I am a civilian, not a professional. I come here to learn.


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## Readerdefence

That Guy said:


> You'd have to ask the IAF.
> 
> As for the vipers, no the USA hasn't be able to access PAF data.
> 
> The PAF is 100% gonna pit the J10-C against the block 52 in its inventory, and compare the two...
> 
> ...but the US won't have access to that data, unless it's directly spying on the PAF.


Hi thanks for your detailed reply with your post I believe PAF will be pitching J10s soon against f16 to share it with China may be for more future enhancements in j10
thank you


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## lightning F57

Dil Pakistan said:


> J-10CE ends with an E; whereas J-10C ends with C


That much even I know


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## Readerdefence

Dil Pakistan said:


> I am a civilian, not a professional. I come here to learn.


Hi thanks for your reply


----------



## The Terminator

vi-va said:


> *Content in Chinese(captured from the pic)*
> 
> "猛龙"的进化
> 
> 浅析歼10战斗机的多用途发展
> 
> 歼10C在攻击能力方面相对于B型有了进一步的提升、并且对机内相关探测、航电以及控制系统进行了升级完善，可以更为有效的支持新型空地（舰）导弹武器使用，对地攻击能力得到了很大的扩展，可以在中近距离执行高强度攻击作战任务，一定程度上弥补了中国空军现代高性能多用途战斗机数量不足的问题
> 
> 新型有源相控阵雷达不仅在对空性能上表现优秀、同时在对（海）功能方面也有着更高的性能，可以更好地支持不同类型精确制导攻击弹药的使用
> 
> 空中加油能力可以保证歼10C在执行远程对地（海）攻击作战时拥有更大的自由度和更强的适应能力
> 
> 
> 歼10C的进气道下的2个小型挂点（C）也对相关电气接口进行了改进，可以根据任务需要挂载电子战、数据通信、光学指示等不同用途的吊舱
> 
> 歼10C的翼下内侧挂点（A）仍然存在着与A型相同的问题，这一点并没有因为多用途能力的增强而得到彻底的改善。不过其武器挂载能力却有了进一步提高，可以携带尺寸和质量更大的攻击武器（如1吨级制导炸弹），一定程度上弥补了该处挂点无法挂载导弹武器的缺陷
> 
> 歼F10C的外侧挂点（D）仍然以挂载近距空空弹为主，挂载能力并没有
> 
> 歼10C翼下中部挂点（B）的挂弹种类增加，除了常规制导炸弹外还可以满足包括反雷达导弹、中远程空地导弹、反舰导弹等各类型导弹武器的挂载，使歼10C具备视距外对地精确打击能力
> 
> 虽然歼10C腹部的4个挂点，特别是后部2个（E）受到空间的限制仍无法挂载大型武器，但随着中国新一代小型制导弹药研制的突破，100、150、250千克级别的一系列红外、卫星、激光制导炸弹已经开始装备，这对于发挥这4个小型挂点的利用率、增强歼10C的攻击能力将发挥十分重要作用
> 
> 歼10C在执行对空作战时，极限条件下可以携带6枚中距空空弹和2枚近距空空弹（A），在数量上与重型战斗机本质上没有差别。特别是最内侧挂点通过换装弹射转接梁实现了中距弹的弹射发射，避免了早期只能采用导轨发射适应性差的问题
> 
> 歼10C在执行对地攻击任务时，可以根据作战距离及任务的需要携带不同的攻击弹药，例如A装态中可以携带3个副油箱和2枚超音速反雷达（反舰）导弹对地而雷达和水而舰艇实施打击（B状态则为2枚中远程空地导弹）、同时还可以携带2枚格斗弹用于自卫。根据所携带导弹类型的不同、在进气道下的2个挂点还可携带相关数据传输吊舱及电子战吊舱。此时，歼10C的攻击范围不低于800千米。如果攻击范围更小一些，在只携带1个机腹副油箱的情况下在翼下挂载4枚500千克各类型制导炸弹或在携带2个翼下副油箱的情况下可在翼下、机腹部挂载3枚500千克制导炸弹及相关吊舱。这种弹药挂栽能力实际上已经与重型战斗轰炸机或多用途战斗机没有太大的差距，作为中型平台来说已经非常优秀了
> 
> 随着一系列小型制导弹药的装备，歼10C的对地攻击能力获得了极大提升，特别是在执行近距离空中支援任务时，其可以携带足够数量的弹药用于对地面多个目标的打击，不仅打击精度可以得到保证，同时攻击距离也将由常规弹药的几千米增加到十几乃至几十千米，战场生存能力也将因此大为提升
> 
> *Machine translation:*
> 
> The Evolution of "Vigorous Dragon"
> 
> 
> A Brief Analysis of the Multi-purpose Development of the J-10 Fighter
> 
> 
> Compared with the B-type, the attack capability of the J-10C has been further improved, and the related detection, avionics and control systems in the aircraft have been upgraded and improved, which can more effectively support the use of new air-to-ground (ship) missile weapons, and to ground The attack capability has been greatly expanded, and it can perform high-intensity attack combat missions at medium and short distances, which to a certain extent makes up for the insufficient number of modern high-performance multi-role fighters of the Chinese Air Force
> 
> 
> The new active phased array radar not only has excellent performance against air, but also has higher performance against (sea) functions, which can better support the use of different types of precision-guided attack munitions
> 
> 
> The aerial refueling capability can ensure that the J-10C has greater freedom and greater adaptability when performing long-range ground (sea) attack operations
> 
> 
> The two small hanging points (C) under the air intake of the J-10C have also improved the relevant electrical interfaces, and can mount pods for different purposes such as electronic warfare, data communication, and optical indication according to the needs of the mission.
> 
> 
> The J-10C's underwing inboard hanging point (A) still has the same problem as the A type, which has not been completely improved by the enhanced multi-purpose capability. However, its weapon mounting capacity has been further improved, and it can carry attack weapons with larger size and mass (such as 1-ton guided bombs), which to a certain extent makes up for the defect that missile weapons cannot be mounted at the hanging point.
> 
> 
> The outer hanging point (D) of the JF10C is still mainly used to mount short-range air-to-air bombs, and the mounting capacity is not
> 
> 
> The types of hanging bombs (B) under the wing of the J-10C have been increased. In addition to conventional guided bombs, it can also meet the loading of various types of missile weapons including anti-radar missiles, medium and long-range air-to-ground missiles, and anti-ship missiles, making the J-10C capable of visual inspection. Long-range precision strike capability
> 
> 
> Although the four hanging points on the abdomen of the J-10C, especially the two rear ones (E), are still unable to mount large weapons due to space constraints, with the breakthrough in the development of a new generation of small guided munitions in China, the 100, 150, and 250 kg class A series of infrared, satellite, and laser-guided bombs have been equipped, which will play a very important role in giving full play to the utilization of these four small hanging points and enhancing the attack capability of the J-10C.
> 
> 
> When the J-10C performs anti-air combat, it can carry 6 medium-range air-to-air bombs and 2 short-range air-to-air bombs (A) under extreme conditions, which is essentially the same as that of heavy fighter jets. In particular, the innermost hanging point realizes the ejection of medium-range projectiles by replacing the ejection adapter beam, avoiding the problem of poor adaptability of only using guide rails in the early stage.
> 
> 
> When the J-10C is performing a ground attack mission, it can carry different attack ammunition according to the combat distance and the needs of the mission. For example, in the A-load state, it can carry 3 auxiliary fuel tanks and 2 supersonic anti-radar (anti-ship) missiles to the ground and radar Heshui and ships carry out strikes (2 medium and long-range air-to-ground missiles in B state), and can also carry 2 fighting bombs for self-defense. According to the different types of missiles carried, the two hanging points under the air intake can also carry related data transmission pods and electronic warfare pods. At this time, the attack range of the J-10C is not less than 800 kilometers. If the attack range is smaller, you can mount 4 500kg guided bombs of various types under the wing with only 1 belly drop tank or 3 under the wing and under the belly with 2 under-wing drop tanks 500kg guided bombs and associated pods. This kind of ammunition mounting capability is actually not much different from that of heavy fighter-bombers or multi-role fighters. As a medium-sized platform, it is already very good.


So in full load out it can carry 6 MRAAM (PL-12/PL-15) missiles, and 2 PL-10s under the wing. And an under belly centerline fuel tank. EW and targeting pods at chin mounted hard points and a couple of ground strike guided bombs in the back! Am I right?? Or would it exceed it's maximum take off weight!

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## SABRE

Zibago said:


> We can't afford it even if its given to us for free also its not really suitable for our doctrine



Without naming the aircraft, PAF did approach the Chinese for the stealth aircraft. To which the Chinese replied they are not yet ready to export. But rest assured when they are ready Pakistan would be the first customer.

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## Princeps Senatus

Zibago said:


> F-35 is a very expensive platform I am not sure they can field it in large enough numbers
> The only western platform they can afford in their budget is the Gripen


F-35 costs less than the Gripen E/F. If Finland can afford 64 F-35s, anyone can.


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## The Terminator

JohnWick said:


> A question @Deino
> F-35 can carry 14 BVR missiles
> F-15 can carry 14 BVR missiles
> F/A-18 super Hornet can carry 10 BVRs
> F/A-18 Hornet can carry 8 BVRs
> How many J-10 can carry only 4 ?
> View attachment 821310


IMHO 6 BVRs under it's wings. 







Unless it's applicable!👇 then probably 8


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## Zibago

JohnWick said:


> A question @Deino
> F-35 can carry 14 BVR missiles
> F-15 can carry 14 BVR missiles
> F/A-18 super Hornet can carry 10 BVRs
> F/A-18 Hornet can carry 8 BVRs
> How many J-10 can carry only 4 ?
> View attachment 821310


J-10 is more comparable to F-16, Gripen and Rafael

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## siegecrossbow

Zibago said:


> F-35 is a very expensive platform I am not sure they can field it in large enough numbers
> The only western platform they can afford in their budget is the Gripen



Best course of action is for them to upgrade to Gripen E. At least that’s what I’ll do as Thai military chief.

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## Engima Chaudhry

JohnWick said:


> A question @Deino
> F-35 can carry 14 BVR missiles
> F-15 can carry 14 BVR missiles
> F/A-18 super Hornet can carry 10 BVRs
> F/A-18 Hornet can carry 8 BVRs
> How many J-10 can carry only 4 ?
> View attachment 821310


6+2=8. If u use the inner wing stations ( usually occupied by external fuel tanks) then add 4. Total is 12 .

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## vi-va

The Terminator said:


> So in full load out it can carry 6 MRAAM (PL-12/PL-15) missiles, and 2 PL-10s under the wing. And an under belly centerline fuel tank. EW and targeting pods at chin mounted hard points and a couple of ground strike guided bombs in the back! Am I right?? Or would it exceed it's maximum take off weight!


I think so.
@Deino

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## Engima Chaudhry

Engima Chaudhry said:


> 6+2=8. If u use the inner wing stations ( usually occupied by external fuel tanks) then add 4. Total is 12 .


But, obviously, carrying so many is only for optics. In real world , mission determines the configuration. 
Likewise , if u load only bvrs on jf 17. Then using dual racks, 9 bvr plus two wvr. But why would u do that?

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## Zibago

Princeps Senatus said:


> F-35 costs less than the Gripen E/F. If Finland can afford 64 F-35s, anyone can.


Where do you get your numbers from?


Princeps Senatus said:


> Defense acquisitions are not like buying a new phone. If we wanted to acquire J-20s and China was willing, we would have J-20s landing in Kamra the next month.


They are not and that is exactly why we are not making commitments for platforms that are expensive to acquire and operate while we still havent replace our ancient mirages


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## Engima Chaudhry

The Terminator said:


> So in full load out it can carry 6 MRAAM (PL-12/PL-15) missiles, and 2 PL-10s under the wing. And an under belly centerline fuel tank. EW and targeting pods at chin mounted hard points and a couple of ground strike guided bombs in the back! Am I right?? Or would it exceed it's maximum take off weight!


For 6 bvr , the two chin mounted pylons have to be used . Any additional ones will have to take up "wet " pylons I e . Have to put dual racks on fuel tank pylons


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## Zibago

siegecrossbow said:


> Best course of action is for them to upgrade to Gripen E. At least that’s what I’ll do as Thai military chief.


Its either the Grpen or used F-16 anything else will not be easy to acquire in large enough numbers


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## Princeps Senatus

Zibago said:


> Where do you get your numbers from?
> 
> They are not and that is exactly why we are not making commitments for platforms that are expensive to acquire and operate while we still havent replace our ancient mirages











‘The Royal Thai Air Force wants to buy eight F-35 jet fighters, the Lightning II is cheaper than Gripen E,’ the Service's Commander-In-Chief says - The Aviation Geek Club


‘The Royal Thai Air Force wants to buy eight F-35 jet fighters, the Lightning II is cheaper than Gripen E,’ the Service's Commander-In-Chief




theaviationgeekclub.com













F-35 cheaper than the Gripen?


The Royal Thai Air Force is considering the acquisition of new fighter aircraft, and favors the Lockheed Martin F-35. Among the arguments, in addition to its ad




www.aviacionline.com

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## Corax

The Terminator said:


> J-10 isn't optimized for ground strike roles till now by PLAAF. I thinks it's mainly employed by PLAAF as an interceptor with some multirole capabilities. Because PLAAF has a lot of flankers and dedicated fighter bombers to do that task. JF-17 is better optimized for multirole capabilities than the J-10. But it could all change when it comes into the hands of the PAF.
> 
> PAF would love to explore the capabilities of the J-10C platform which it couldn't fulfill by the JF-17, like Air Launched Cruise Missile etc. The induction of J-10C would make our obsolete Mirages completely redundant and they could be easily retired/replaced in the future with no compromises in the capabilities. Same would be the case with the F-16s, they would be dethroned by the J-10CP in the PAF's inventory as a premium fighter jet. And would made the F-16s redundant as well, so less reliant on the US supply chain. I am in no intention to degrade or belittle any of the platforms, they are all top notch in their own right.



Yes, I've said exactly the same thing. The PLAAF don't use the J-10C in strike because they have Flanker variants and strategic bombers. I was referring to the actual design of the aircraft - high internal fuel fraction and relatively large delta wing for load carrying capability. As I've mentioned previously, given the PAF can't upgrade Vipers with SOWS, the J-10C provides a readily capable and easy medium weight platform in lieu of the Vipers to take on the strike role, and eventually replace the Mirages. The PAF shouldn't have any issues such as adding local SOWS (RAAD, REK, etc) as well as potentially the AselPod from Turkey, in addition to AShM and other Chinese SOWS.


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## The Terminator

Engima Chaudhry said:


> For 6 bvr , the two chin mounted pylons have to be used . Any additional ones will have to take up "wet " pylons I e . Have to put dual racks on fuel tank pylons









Picture source serenity, translated by vi-va. Both the members here.

It shows 6 BVRs, 2 short range, and one centerline fuel tank

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## The Terminator

Engima Chaudhry said:


> 6+2=8. If u use the inner wing stations ( usually occupied by external fuel tanks) then add 4. Total is 12 .


How have you calculated 12? Can you elaborate a bit! Or a graphical representation would be even better 👍


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## Talon

White privilege said:


> So _Tail Choppers _and _Saf Shikkan _(previously _Cobras) _assets would relocate to Rafiqui, opening up two squadron slots at Minhas.That means both J-10 squadrons would be based at Kamra.About right??


Tail Choppers moved to Rafiqui more than a year ago


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## tphuang

Irfan Baloch said:


> bless you man.
> I was just going to write that last bit.
> how would PAF verify J10 capability and its integration in its doctrine without putting it against airforce other than China?



There is a huge difference between flying J-10C against a couple of non-NATO or Turkish air forces vs what you were proposing. What level of access to you think America would demand in return for essentially giving upgraded F-16Vs to Pakistan for very little? In terms of radar signature, even ROCAF can provide the basic radar signature data to USAF since they see J-10C flying by on a weekly basis. USAF does not need to exercise with J-10C to get that information. NATO countries would want to know things like the strength weaknesses in its radar or EW suite. The actual capabilities of PL-10 and PL-15. All these are things that are entirely relevant to not J-10C but also J-20.

China is not Russia. It doesn't need the export sales to prop up its defense industry. It's exporting basically the same version of J-10C that PLAAF uses to PAF due to long standing relationship with Pakistan. There are a lot of people inside PLA with long standing ties to Pakistani military. Just look at how quickly this deal came together and the aircraft got delivered to PAF. If Pakistan views its relationship with China/PLA as purely transactional, then this is hugely problematic for the future ties between the two countries.

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## The Terminator

Corax said:


> Yes, I've said exactly the same thing. The PLAAF don't use the J-10C in strike because they have Flanker variants and strategic bombers. I was referring to the actual design of the aircraft - high internal fuel fraction and relatively large delta wing for load carrying capability. As I've mentioned previously, given the PAF can't upgrade Vipers with SOWS, the J-10C provides a readily capable and easy medium weight platform in lieu of the Vipers to take on the strike role, and eventually replace the Mirages. The PAF shouldn't have any issues such as adding local SOWS (RAAD, REK, etc) as well as potentially the AselPod from Turkey, in addition to AShM and other Chinese SOWS.


We own the source code of JF-17 thunder, but not sure how much we can do with the J-10C especially when it comes to the third party suppliers like Aselsan for example. If both the Chinese and Turks agree to mutually cooperate to equip J-10CP then it's quite possible to do so.


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## The Terminator

tphuang said:


> There is a huge difference between flying J-10C against a couple of non-NATO or Turkish air forces vs what you were proposing. What level of access to you think America would demand in return for essentially giving upgraded F-16Vs to Pakistan for very little? In terms of radar signature, even ROCAF can provide the basic radar signature data to USAF since they see J-10C flying by on a weekly basis. USAF does not need to exercise with J-10C to get that information. NATO countries would want to know things like the strength weaknesses in its radar or EW suite. The actual capabilities of PL-10 and PL-15. All these are things that are entirely relevant to not J-10C but also J-20.
> 
> China is not Russia. It doesn't need the export sales to prop up its defense industry. It's exporting basically the same version of J-10C that PLAAF uses to PAF due to long standing relationship with Pakistan. There are a lot of people inside PLA with long standing ties to Pakistani military. Just look at how quickly this deal came together and the aircraft got delivered to PAF. If Pakistan views its relationship with China/PLA as purely transactional, then this is hugely problematic for the future ties between the two countries.


Can't agree more. And no, PAK-China ties had never been transactional. They are more than strategic partnership and brotherly neighborhood. A bromance you might call it.

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## Engima Chaudhry

The Terminator said:


> How have you calculated 12? Can you elaborate  by putting dual racks on





The Terminator said:


> How have you calculated 12? Can you elaborate a bit! Or a graphical representation would be even better 👍





The Terminator said:


> View attachment 821322
> 
> 
> Picture source serenity, translated by vi-va. Both the members here.
> 
> It shows 6 BVRs, 2 short range, and one centerline fuel tank



I just counted the bvr in the last line of the graph u shared. There it shows two bvrs together, signifying dual rack. 
It totales to 12, including 2 wvrs 
Regards



The Terminator said:


> View attachment 821322
> 
> 
> Picture source serenity, translated by vi-va. Both the members here.
> 
> It shows 6 BVRs, 2 short range, and one centerline fuel tank


In this graph . The last line on the bottom right depiction. 
I can't share any pics ,( don't know how),








Engima Chaudhry said:


> I just counted the bvr in the last line of the graph u shared. There it shows two bvrs together, signifying dual rack.
> It totales to 12, including 2 wvrs
> Regards
> 
> 
> In this graph . The last line on the bottom right depiction.
> I can't share any pics ,( don't know how),


Hope that suffices?


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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500382687399661572

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## Rafi

tphuang said:


> There is a huge difference between flying J-10C against a couple of non-NATO or Turkish air forces vs what you were proposing. What level of access to you think America would demand in return for essentially giving upgraded F-16Vs to Pakistan for very little? In terms of radar signature, even ROCAF can provide the basic radar signature data to USAF since they see J-10C flying by on a weekly basis. USAF does not need to exercise with J-10C to get that information. NATO countries would want to know things like the strength weaknesses in its radar or EW suite. The actual capabilities of PL-10 and PL-15. All these are things that are entirely relevant to not J-10C but also J-20.
> 
> China is not Russia. It doesn't need the export sales to prop up its defense industry. It's exporting basically the same version of J-10C that PLAAF uses to PAF due to long standing relationship with Pakistan. There are a lot of people inside PLA with long standing ties to Pakistani military. Just look at how quickly this deal came together and the aircraft got delivered to PAF. If Pakistan views its relationship with China/PLA as purely transactional, then this is hugely problematic for the future ties between the two countries.



I can tell you for sure, that the PAF would NEVER compromise on Chinese OPSEC requests, the Pak-China relationship is far too important for us, to be damaged in any way.

Everybody needs to calm down.

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## SD 10

tphuang said:


> There is a huge difference between flying J-10C against a couple of non-NATO or Turkish air forces vs what you were proposing. What level of access to you think America would demand in return for essentially giving upgraded F-16Vs to Pakistan for very little? In terms of radar signature, even ROCAF can provide the basic radar signature data to USAF since they see J-10C flying by on a weekly basis. USAF does not need to exercise with J-10C to get that information. NATO countries would want to know things like the strength weaknesses in its radar or EW suite. The actual capabilities of PL-10 and PL-15. All these are things that are entirely relevant to not J-10C but also J-20.
> 
> China is not Russia. It doesn't need the export sales to prop up its defense industry. It's exporting basically the same version of J-10C that PLAAF uses to PAF due to long standing relationship with Pakistan. There are a lot of people inside PLA with long standing ties to Pakistani military. Just look at how quickly this deal came together and the aircraft got delivered to PAF. If Pakistan views its relationship with China/PLA as purely transactional, then this is hugely problematic for the future ties between the two countries.


The days of US dictating Pakistan is gone but some people just cant live with it, they are in love with the west and calling west out is a blasphemy in their opinion, best not reply these people, as their sole purpose is to derail the entire thread with their mental masturbation!!!!!

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## TopGun786

A very informative video about J10

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## Deino

vi-va said:


> I think so.
> @Deino




In theory yes, but I must admit, I haven't see any J-10 carrying any AAm on the inner station.



JohnWick said:


> A question @Deino
> F-35 can carry 14 BVR missiles
> F-15 can carry 14 BVR missiles
> F/A-18 super Hornet can carry 10 BVRs
> F/A-18 Hornet can carry 8 BVRs
> How many J-10 can carry only 4 ?
> View attachment 821310




It seems, the mosta realistic load is 6



Engima Chaudhry said:


> 6+2=8. If u use the inner wing stations ( usually occupied by external fuel tanks) then add 4. Total is 12 .




Not sure how to come to 12. Only the other wing stations are wired for PL-10, the center wing stations for 4 AAMs on twin-launcher and again, the inner wing stations have never been seen carrying AAMs. And please forget the fuselage hardpoints, they cannot carry AAMs.

As such the number is 6, not less but also not more.

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## The Terminator

Engima Chaudhry said:


> I just counted the bvr in the last line of the graph u shared. There it shows two bvrs together, signifying dual rack.
> It totales to 12, including 2 wvrs
> Regards
> 
> 
> In this graph . The last line on the bottom right depiction.
> I can't share any pics ,( don't know how),
> 
> View attachment 821342
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that suffices?


I can't read Chinese but pretty much sure those rows show different possible options of the load out but shouldn't be added up to reach a humongous grand total like that. 

@Deino

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## Deino

The Terminator said:


> I can't read Chinese but pretty much sure those rows show different possible options of the load out but shouldn't be added up to reach a humongous grand total like that.
> 
> @Deino




Just see my reply above your post

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## SIPRA

Dil Pakistan said:


> J-10CE ends with an E; whereas J-10C ends with C


 
Yes, that is the real difference.

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## The Terminator

Deino said:


> Just see my reply above your post


Got it.


And what about this beast 👇

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## Deino

The Terminator said:


> Got it.
> 
> 
> And what about this beast 👇
> View attachment 821356




A plain stupid model just should to fool us. these pylons cannot fit AAMs.

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## siegecrossbow

JohnWick said:


> A question @Deino
> F-35 can carry 14 BVR missiles
> F-15 can carry 14 BVR missiles
> F/A-18 super Hornet can carry 10 BVRs
> F/A-18 Hornet can carry 8 BVRs
> How many J-10 can carry only 4 ?
> View attachment 821310



I don’t see the practicality of carrying full load during air superiority mission.

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## Bilal.

tphuang said:


> If Pakistan views its relationship with China/PLA as purely transactional, then this is hugely problematic for the future ties between the two countries.


How can you take the view of a forum member as the policy of Pakistan. The forum didn’t even know for sure if the aircraft is coming or not till the minister announced and then pictures followed. It has no say what do ever in state policy.

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## MastanKhan

siegecrossbow said:


> I don’t see the practicality of carrying full load during air superiority mission.



Hi,

Thank you very much for your comments. 

One of the primary needs of air superiority combat for the spearhead aircraft is gaining the maximum altitude in the shortest period of time to be in a position of strength to launch the first BVR volley.

And for that reason---they need to be optimally light---.

Now if there is a hidden factor involved---ie---the power plant is more powerful than what is being narrated---then that is a different story

The spearhead:

4 BVR's and 2 WVR's for the J10's and 

2 BVR's and 2 WVR's for the JF17's 

Now the secondary line of aircraft that have enough time to gain the needed altitude---they might carry a heavier load.

It may just be like---quick deployment ground troops equipped lightly that can be rushed in real first and then the heavier equipped troops that follow up later

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## Engima Chaudhry

Deino said:


> In theory yes, but I must admit, I haven't see any J-10 carrying any AAm on the inner station.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems, the mosta realistic load is 6
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how to come to 12. Only the other wing stations are wired for PL-10, the center wing stations for 4 AAMs on twin-launcher and again, the inner wing stations have never been seen carrying AAMs. And please forget the fuselage hardpoints, they cannot carry AAMs.
> 
> As such the number is 6, not less but also not more.


Kindly look at the pictogram shared . It shows 10 bvrs . 
Regards


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## SQ8

Why Pakistanis cannot spell Rafale is beyond me…. Its R A F A L E.. not Rafael like the Israeli defense company or Raphael like the Italian artist or Raffall which is the name of a lottery firm.

The J-10CP is likely going to be closely guarded but based on the ridiculous theories of it being compromised for F-16Vs it seems we are gathering a tik tok level crowd of wanting to just gaslight things for fun rather than actually realizing what they are talking about.

No more F-16s! Its done! That boat is pretty much departing and your new camp is set and its not western equipment. Moreover, despite the self centered approach of Pakistanis thinking they are the most important, most capable and most intelligent nation in the world it is far from it. For starters you have India next door which is multiples more important regardless of how well it tries to look for its interests than Pakistan’s CPEC gloating ever will be to the west in trying to contain China.

You just basically gave the middle finger to every NATO nation on Russia and Ukraine regardless of your pleading of “neutrality” to which they are now pushing for a regime change to ensure you remain screwed. And if that goes through then yes the J-10CP may be pushed to be compromised from a government level in Pakistan and no PDF or Chinese netizen warrior would be able to do jack about it because it is easier to buy a Pakistani than to find a Fuzon bubble gum in any store. 

Lastly, even if you don’t compromise anything which is very likely - the United States spends more on ELINT & SIGINT than all other nations combined so at the least its been monitoring Chinese aircraft on patrol in Taiwan and storing all those juicy radar emissions for analysis later.

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## MastanKhan

Xone said:


> listening to this does not bring any difference. No one knows beforehand that PAF has such an advantage over IAF going to the real theatre. At least knowing the lack of an edge over rivals will ask for more endeavors to do better in training and acquisitions of the latest tech weapons.
> to perform better is not similar to knowing what is better. the entire world knows what is the stealth fighter but only a few have them.
> PAF got J-10C to restore the lost advantage once again. Is not it so?
> having western and Chinese systems at the same time brings forth versatility to the PAF.



Hi,

The Paf exposed its capabilities that the IAF was un-aware of---.

The difference cannot be re-gained---.

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## tphuang

Corax said:


> Yes, I've said exactly the same thing. The PLAAF don't use the J-10C in strike because they have Flanker variants and strategic bombers. I was referring to the actual design of the aircraft - high internal fuel fraction and relatively large delta wing for load carrying capability. As I've mentioned previously, given the PAF can't upgrade Vipers with SOWS, the J-10C provides a readily capable and easy medium weight platform in lieu of the Vipers to take on the strike role, and eventually replace the Mirages. The PAF shouldn't have any issues such as adding local SOWS (RAAD, REK, etc) as well as potentially the AselPod from Turkey, in addition to AShM and other Chinese SOWS.


Actually, j16s up to this point have not been used in strike role either. As we have seen in the Ukraine conflict, stand off weapons and pgms are very important. Not having them have been quite costly for the Russians. Now that j20 has taken over the role as the primary air superiority aircraft, the natural path for j10c is to add more ground attack and precision strike capabilities.


Deino said:


> In theory yes, but I must admit, I haven't see any J-10 carrying any AAm on the inner station.
> 
> It seems, the mosta realistic load is 6
> 
> Not sure how to come to 12. Only the other wing stations are wired for PL-10, the center wing stations for 4 AAMs on twin-launcher and again, the inner wing stations have never been seen carrying AAMs. And please forget the fuselage hardpoints, they cannot carry AAMs.
> 
> As such the number is 6, not less but also not more.


Yes 6 at most. The inner pylons are for dumb bombs. Not really sure why there is a need for more aam pylons since shooting down 1 or 2 aircraft would be pretty good showing per sortie. Adding more missiles will simply reduce loiter time and increase rcs.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

In my Opinion , the number of BVR missiles carrying capacity does impacts the , outcome for Air Superiority, specially if you are the force fighting away from your home base.

As users pointed out* F-35/F15/F18* have ability to carry 10+ Missile that is certainly big factor but with Twin Engines bigger loads are carriable

For Pakistan the Single Engine , Platform is ideal as we are defending home turf so , even if we look at USA they operate large fleet of *700 F16* on their home soil missions

Obviously , we can't compare PAF units with US units , which have more $$ invested

The *Dragon-10 (*formally J-10) offers , certain improvements if you are increasing your BVR capacity from 2-4 missiles per Unit to 6 or 8 , which is still significant

150+ , JF17 Thunders , 2-4 BVRs per plane
150+, Dragon-10 , 4-6 BVR missiles per planes

Key is number of *Dragon-10* inducted

Pakistan's general comparison is with regional airfares in Asia, where our setup is quite reasonable



Still would be ample improvement

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## MastanKhan

Irfan Baloch said:


> bless you man.
> I was just going to write that last bit.
> how would PAF verify J10 capability and its integration in its doctrine without putting it against airforce other than China?



Hi,

I think what is more important is how would china learn how capable its aircraft are.

Feb 27th had as much eye popping reactions in beijing as they did in washington, tel aviv and moscow and amongst other locations---.

That was the first true air combat picture that emerged after 2 equally capable force fought in the air.

As much as the americans were salivating to find out first hand how ithappened so were the chinese drooling to learn and the first hand picture of the combat---.

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## araz

The Terminator said:


> So in full load out it can carry 6 MRAAM (PL-12/PL-15) missiles, and 2 PL-10s under the wing. And an under belly centerline fuel tank. EW and targeting pods at chin mounted hard points and a couple of ground strike guided bombs in the back! Am I right?? Or would it exceed it's maximum take off weight!


It may not but its maneouverability will be affected badly. The ideal loadout for A2A is/4+2. If you have a twin engine 6+2. No one is going to carry more in the Indo Pak arena. The F15 s carrying a full loadout was a testament to its strength plus how it was used for battles.
A

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## jaybird

Engima Chaudhry said:


> Kindly look at the pictogram shared . It shows 10 bvrs .
> Regards


There are no 10 bvrs. And I'm not sure about changing pylons for more BVR missiles part. Only stated by the guy who made this diagram. Right now all we see is 4X PL-15 and 2X PL10 max for J-10C.

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## Deino

Engima Chaudhry said:


> Kindly look at the pictogram shared . It shows 10 bvrs .
> Regards




Ok ... but as I already noted, this is wrong! The J-10 was never seen carrying PL-12/15s on the centerline station and plain impossible to do this on twin-launchers. There is simply not enough space ... this diagram is nice, but not more than a fan's wishful thinking!






This is correct! However we have never seen 10x 250 kg guided bombs so far.

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## SQ8

Deino said:


> Ok ... but as I already noted, this is wrong! The J-10 was never seen carrying PL-12/15s on the centerline station and plain impossible to do this on twin-launchers. There is simply not enough space ... this diagram is nice, but not more than a fan's wishful thinking!
> 
> View attachment 821434


Having more missiles started off from the Russians who liked to fire off in pairs for ensuring some hit or combo of IR+Radar like the R-23R’s and Ts. Technically even the legacy hornet could carry 12 (10 AMRAAMs) but somehow the idea that they also have mass and weight that impacts aircraft performance is forgotten by most.

Finally, since BVR combat is still closing into a merge eventually I would hate to be the guy at the lesser spectrum of payload performance than someone at a higher T/W based on their payload.

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## White privilege

Hodor said:


> Tail Choppers moved to Rafiqui more than a year ago


----------



## JohnWick

Deino said:


> Ok ... but as I already noted, this is wrong! The J-10 was never seen carrying PL-12/15s on the centerline station and plain impossible to do this on twin-launchers. There is simply not enough space ... this diagram is nice, but not more than a fan's wishful thinking!
> 
> View attachment 821434
> 
> 
> This is correct! However we have never seen 10x 250 kg guided bombs so far.
> 
> View attachment 821435





SQ8 said:


> Having more missiles started off from the Russians who liked to fire off in pairs for ensuring some hit or combo of IR+Radar like the R-23R’s and Ts. Technically even the legacy hornet could carry 12 (10 AMRAAMs) but somehow the idea that they also have mass and weight that impacts aircraft performance is forgotten by most.
> 
> Finally, since BVR combat is still closing into a merge eventually I would hate to be the guy at the lesser spectrum of payload performance than someone at a higher T/W based on their payload.


Thank you very much for your precious opinion
I was merely saying that in a condition like 27 feb when groups of 20 planes were approaching us from different sectors then a plane capable of carrying somewhere between 12 to 14 bvr is very useful Cz we don't have scramble to 4 aircraft for that exact amount of bvrs in the air that only one that kind of aircraft can carry And in a BVR engagement T:W don't matter Cz it is the missile Fox 3 which have to do all the maneuvers.
PAF also need that kind of plane
J-35/FC-31 maybe is the plane we should be looking for in the future
Hope you agree with me

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## The Terminator

SQ8 said:


> Why Pakistanis cannot spell Rafale is beyond me…. Its R A F A L E.. not Rafael like the Israeli defense company or Raphael like the Italian artist or Raffall which is the name of a lottery firm.
> 
> The J-10CP is likely going to be closely guarded but based on the ridiculous theories of it being compromised for F-16Vs it seems we are gathering a tik tok level crowd of wanting to just gaslight things for fun rather than actually realizing what they are talking about.
> 
> No more F-16s! Its done! That boat is pretty much departing and your new camp is set and its not western equipment. Moreover, despite the self centered approach of Pakistanis thinking they are the most important, most capable and most intelligent nation in the world it is far from it. For starters you have India next door which is multiples more important regardless of how well it tries to look for its interests than Pakistan’s CPEC gloating ever will be to the west in trying to contain China.
> 
> You just basically gave the middle finger to every NATO nation on Russia and Ukraine regardless of your pleading of “neutrality” to which they are now pushing for a regime change to ensure you remain screwed. And if that goes through then yes the J-10CP may be pushed to be compromised from a government level in Pakistan and no PDF or Chinese netizen warrior would be able to do jack about it because it is easier to buy a Pakistani than to find a Fuzon bubble gum in any store.
> 
> Lastly, even if you don’t compromise anything which is very likely - the United States spends more on ELINT & SIGINT than all other nations combined so at the least its been monitoring Chinese aircraft on patrol in Taiwan and storing all those juicy radar emissions for analysis later.


Looks like a PDF advisor gone rogue by saluting a Flag of red stripes and many stars. I would partially agree with you but every nation and person, regardless of their current situation or status deserves some self respect. Yes there may be some Pakistanis cheaper than your bubble gum but there could be a western caucasian man even cheaper than that. Plz don't try to start nation bashing $h!t show, it won't go down well for either sides.

And yes we had faced some issues in Govts in past and present too. But the policy of the state is designed by the loyal institutes of the state. We have seen many planted Govts but they couldn't achieve strategic policy level penetration. Yes they might speak loud that we are in charge and we are in control of everything but still the Military and the deep state not only managed to preserve their power and sovereignty but also held the helm of strategic policy making and further implementation. Obviously there had been some hiccups along the way.

Govts/regimes might come and go but the state remains there. Don't care about who is in the Parliament or in the Presidential Palace. They are irrelevant to state's strategic policies. As with any other state, our state level policies are controlled by establishment and deep state which thank God has maintained it's posture well as a strong state within a state, so weathered through Cold wars, Global superpowers continuously visiting our backyard and still we are standing firm and strong and not ended up like Syria. It's not PM IK's policy, who is he to make that much huge of a policy shift all by himself. He is just a face and mouthpiece of our state. And IK is indeed hell of a strong face of our state. The policy shift to look towards the East, maintain neutrality or show the middle finger to the bullies is all created and controlled by the state machinery.

Their Sigint or elint are irrelevant whatsoever. And yes one may find a mole in Pakistan so would be found in yours states too, there are no exceptions for that.

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## That Guy

The Terminator said:


> Looks like a PDF advisor gone rogue by saluting a Flag of red stripes and many stars. I would partially agree with you but every nation and person, regardless of their current situation or status deserves some self respect. Yes there may be some Pakistanis cheaper than your bubble gum but there could be a western caucasian man even cheaper than that. Plz don't try to start nation bashing $h!t show, it won't go down well for either sides.
> 
> And yes we had faced some issues in Govts in past and present too. But the policy of the state is designed by the loyal institutes of the state. We have seen many planted Govts but they couldn't achieve strategic policy level penetration. Yes they might speak loud that we are in charge and we are in control of everything but still the Military and the deep state not only managed to preserve their power and sovereignty but also held the helm of strategic policy making and further implementation. Obviously there had been some hiccups along the way.
> 
> Govts/regimes might come and go but the state remains there. Don't care about who is in the Parliament or in the Presidential Palace. They are irrelevant to state's strategic policies. As with any other state, our state level policies are controlled by establishment and deep state which thank God has maintained it's posture well as a strong state within a state, so weathered through Cold wars, Global superpowers continuously visiting our backyard and still we are standing firm and strong and not ended up like Syria. It's not PM IK's policy, who is he to make that much huge of a policy shift all by himself. He is just a face and mouthpiece of our state. And IK is indeed hell of a strong face of our state. The policy shift to look towards the East, maintain neutrality or show the middle finger to the bullies is all created and controlled by the state machinery.
> 
> Their Sigint or elint are irrelevant whatsoever. And yes one may find a mole in Pakistan so would be found in yours states too, there are no exceptions for that.


Bro, you've barely posted anything since 2015, why are you suddenly doing it now? And picking fights at that too.

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## JohnWick

siegecrossbow said:


> I don’t see the practicality of carrying full load during air superiority mission.


F-15 EX which is currently on order can carry 22 AIM-120 AMRAAMS 
What does it shows 
Pardon me butt, 4 F-15 EX can carry more bvr missiles then a whole squadron of J-10 !

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## The Terminator

That Guy said:


> Bro, you've barely posted anything since 2015, why are you suddenly doing it now? And picking fights at that too.


I have been a silent reader Pakistani defense forums even years before I registered in the 2015. 🙂

And I didn't mean to fight anyone. But if you would label defending my nation's dignity as picking fights with others, then so be it.

I am ready to face the punishment 😔

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## Scorpiooo

JohnWick said:


> F-15 EX which is currently on order can carry 22 AIM-120 AMRAAMS
> What does it shows
> Pardon me butt, 4 F-15 EX can carry more bvr missiles then a whole squadron of J-10 !


It requires 4 brv to kill 4 F15 and 18 brv to kill one sqr .. which have best chance to servive

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## Irfan Baloch

tphuang said:


> There is a huge difference between flying J-10C against a couple of non-NATO or Turkish air forces vs what you were proposing. What level of access to you think America would demand in return for essentially giving upgraded F-16Vs to Pakistan for very little? In terms of radar signature, even ROCAF can provide the basic radar signature data to USAF since they see J-10C flying by on a weekly basis. USAF does not need to exercise with J-10C to get that information. NATO countries would want to know things like the strength weaknesses in its radar or EW suite. The actual capabilities of PL-10 and PL-15. All these are things that are entirely relevant to not J-10C but also J-20.



USA wont demand such information because it is inconceivable, it would only make it look stupid when PAF will simply call off such meet.
but for the sake of such ridiculous scenario, maybe if America offers similar access and information about F35 then Pakistan can ask China if it is willing to trade J10 information for similar F35 information,.?

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## TNT

JohnWick said:


> F-15 EX which is currently on order can carry 22 AIM-120 AMRAAMS
> What does it shows
> Pardon me butt, 4 F-15 EX can carry more bvr missiles then a whole squadron of J-10 !



With that load it will be flying like a brick and having RCS of a passenger jet.

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## tphuang

Irfan Baloch said:


> USA wont demand such information because it is inconceivable, it would only make it look stupid when PAF will simply call off such meet.
> but for the sake of such ridiculous scenario, maybe if America offers similar access and information about F35 then Pakistan can ask China if it is willing to trade J10 information for similar F35 information,.?



Do not underestimate what US would ask for. After all, UAE gave up on F-35 purchase due to overly onerous demand.

China is exporting J-10C to Pakistan with the full expectation that US would likely have more access to J-10C than vice versa with F-16. Keep in mind that PAF still cannot use F-16s in its DACTs with China. I think it would be pretty reasonable to also expect PAF to not use J-10s in its DACTs with US and its main allies. Turkey or other Arab countries is a different story.

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## The Terminator

jaybird said:


> There are no 10 bvrs. And I'm not sure about changing pylons for more BVR missiles part. Only stated by the guy who made this diagram. Right now all we see is 4X PL-15 and 2X PL10 max for J-10C.
> View attachment 821432


Thanks a lot for labeling the picture. Machine translation wasn't that much easy to understand what's it saying accurately. 👍😊

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## SQ8

JohnWick said:


> Thank you very much for your precious opinion
> I was merely saying that in a condition like 27 feb when groups of 20 planes were approaching us from different sectors then a plane capable of carrying somewhere between 12 to 14 bvr is very useful Cz we don't have scramble to 4 aircraft for that exact amount of bvrs in the air that only one that kind of aircraft can carry And in a BVR engagement T:W don't matter Cz it is the missile Fox 3 which have to do all the maneuvers.
> PAF also need that kind of plane
> J-35/FC-31 maybe is the plane we should be looking for in the future
> Hope you agree with me


So what if one of your 14 or 26 BvR carrying airplanes is shot down because they aren’t invincible?
You not only are down a plane but also the weapons themselves which cost about $250000-$500k each as well. Now the enemy is still 12 aircraft while your precious BVR force is still defensive from the enemy’s shots and outnumbered with no one shooting back.

Yes, having a low observable platform helps but they don’t carry 16 missiles either. What they do is reduce the enemy’s situational awareness and reaction time to knock out key players while other less capable fighters pick off the stragglers.
You don’t get a J-31 to carry 16 missiles, you use it to get so close to the enemy that when you do launch its 4 missiles you ensure they all kill,

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## Windjammer

JohnWick said:


> F-15 EX which is currently on order can carry 22 AIM-120 AMRAAMS
> What does it shows
> Pardon me butt, 4 F-15 EX can carry more bvr missiles then a whole squadron of J-10 !


The SU-30 can reportedly carry a Dozen missiles of assorted types.... Guess what, it took just one AMRAAM to neutralize that advantage.

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## Shotgunner51

siegecrossbow said:


> I don’t see the practicality of carrying full load during air superiority mission.


But that could be practical during a marketing mission

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## The Terminator

I personally highly respect and regard sir @SQ8 and his authority over the subject. I never expected from him this kind of berating comments about the Pakistani nation as a whole to the extent of straightforward insult and humiliation. So I responded as the situation demanded. I would like to retract my statement if our status is upgraded to be worth more than a gum 😏.

*I never intended to throw personal insults or country/nation bashing. But yes it wasn't that much pleasant either. Even then if anyone gets offended then I sincerely apologize from him/them. 

But my statement still stands as long as purchasing a human that too a Pakistani in some "fuzon gum" currency.*

@That Guy

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## Aesterix

Windjammer said:


> The SU-30 can reportedly carry a Dozen missiles of assorted types.... Guess what, it took just one AMRAAM to neutralize that advantage.


Haters gona hate.
The beast of the east. Mini awacs, created such a screen of electronic defence that PAF could only shoot down one Beast of East, and just one, lost as sheep, Mig-21. 
That and 
Having another two dozen jets turn round and run away , is by all Indian definitions, a grand victory.

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## SQ8

The Terminator said:


> I have been a silent reader Pakistani defense forums even years before I registered in the 2015. 🙂
> 
> And I didn't mean to fight anyone. But if you would label defending my nation's dignity as picking fights with others, then so be it.
> 
> I am ready to face the punishment 😔


Yes, you are the only star to defend dignity of a nation… baqi saaray sautelay. Don’t go down that psyche, all of us have good wishes for Pakistan even if they don’t always align.

You can defend the dignity of Pakistanis by throwing stones at other houses but at will not change the reality of what is happening even now. Yes, there are a few good people as have been throughout Pakistan’s history fighting to keep its direction but chest beating over them doesn’t change the reality of the nation’s overall degradation. Throwing defenses of “America is corrupt too” or xyz also has moles doesn’t solve the problem nor does it make you dignified. Accepting a problem , talking against it and pushing others to accept it as a problem and fighting against is the solution.



The Terminator said:


> I personally highly respect and regard sir @SQ8 and his authority over the subject. I never expected from him this kind of berating comments about the Pakistani nation as a whole to the extent of straightforward insult and humiliation. So I responded as the situation demanded. I would like to retract my statement if our status is upgraded to be worth more than a gum 😏.
> 
> *I never intended to throw personal insults or country/nation bashing. But yes it wasn't that much pleasant either. Even then if anyone gets offended then I sincerely apologize from him/them.
> 
> But my statement still stands as long as purchasing a human that too a Pakistani in some "fuzon gum" currency.*
> 
> @That Guy


I am but 1’s and 0’s.. the real life person could not find fuzon gum throughout Islamabad so yes, it was easier to buy a MNA for crores than to find that gum.
Also @The Terminator , think of it this way.. I was born in the country and people I am insulting and spent 25 years of my life in. I am feeling the disdain of it as well and the people I am pointing fingers at include folks I know personally

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## The Terminator

SQ8 said:


> the real life person could not find fuzon gum throughout Islamabad so yes, it was easier to buy a MNA for crores than to find that gum.


Roughly calculating the logistical cost of your gum wouldn't cost more than 20 to 30 dollars. So from where you found an MNA that cheap. Share the secret so you may find the next PM, before J-10's flypast, some member from this forum  

*Pun intended.


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## SQ8

The Terminator said:


> Roughly calculating the logistical cost of your gum wouldn't cost more than 20 to 30 dollars. So from where you found an MNA that cheap. Share the secret so you may find the next PM, before J-10's flypast, some member from this forum
> 
> *Pun intended.


Mayne not a MNA for 20-30 dollars but an entire sectarian financing network was being run with certain people bought for around $350 within LE. So a variety of people are available based on requirements.

The J-10 will remain secure, but that doesn’t mean attempts will not be made to compromise it. I’ll check in ten years to see posts and news in that regard

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## V. Makarov

Dil Pakistan said:


> J-10CE ends with an E; whereas J-10C ends with C

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> The SU-30 can reportedly carry a Dozen missiles of assorted types.... Guess what, it took just one AMRAAM to neutralize that advantage.


Having a lot of missiles does have its advantages in that you can lob two per target or engage 4 at once with 8 in track while scan mode. 
However, the equation then shifts to the missiles and the kinematics of the launch. 
So far the MKI’s integration with the i-Derby has gone nowhere and the Astra isn’t deployed either. So with their R-27s and R-77s the MKIs need the payload just to score a decent kill.

Finally, no one is still asking the performance of a Su-30(or F-15EX) fully laden with missiles and internal fuel

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## The Terminator

SQ8 said:


> Mayne not a MNA for 20-30 dollars but an entire sectarian financing network was being run with certain people bought for around $350 within LE. So a variety of people are available based on requirements.
> 
> The J-10 will remain secure, but that doesn’t mean attempts will not be made to compromise it. I’ll check in ten years to see posts and news in that regard


The tech is accelerating too fast and ten years is a lot of time. No one can predict, what would have happened by that time. This old school style of forum and chat would survive by that time! Can't really tell?

Maybe our brains would be directly connected to the 6/7G networks through Nuralink in the west and Huawei Hamronylink here 😜


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## MastanKhan

SQ8 said:


> Having more missiles started off from the Russians who liked to fire off in pairs for ensuring some hit or combo of IR+Radar like the R-23R’s and Ts. Technically even the legacy hornet could carry 12 (10 AMRAAMs) but somehow the idea that they also have mass and weight that impacts aircraft performance is forgotten by most.
> 
> Finally, since BVR combat is still closing into a merge eventually I would hate to be the guy at the lesser spectrum of payload performance than someone at a higher T/W based on their payload.



Hi,

BVR combat will not result in WVR combat---I told you guys over a decade ago---and I am telling you again---.

Only in error---will they come close. That is what would make a superior aircraft into a 50 / 50 win / lose position.

You need to stop playing DCS world games---.

Specially with the advent of modern off bore sight missiles---the game of wvr has changed---.

Even on feb 27th---the superior enemy did not chose merge but rather flew away---.

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## araz

JohnWick said:


> F-15 EX which is currently on order can carry 22 AIM-120 AMRAAMS
> What does it shows
> Pardon me butt, 4 F-15 EX can carry more bvr missiles then a whole squadron of J-10 !


Bhai saheb.
Sometimes it is smart to ask why when a person has expressed an opinion. You might end up learning something. Aircrafts will never go out with a full load out but instead with enough to serve the purposes of their assignment. If you load an air craft to that extent do you think it will stay in an arena long enough to fire 22 AMRAAMs? The likelihood is he may fire 1-2 and at best 4 missiles. I cannot recall a single incident where any aircraft has gone in with a FULL LOADOUT and expended all its missiles. Perhaps you might know and I would be happy to learn.
The F15 loadout would be more than most planes because most of its-assignments are long distance requiring loitering and it may come in contact with more than one adversary. Reloading might not be an option over the sea/ enemy terrain. However I would still say the load out of 22 AMRAAMs would be totally impractical.
The 5th generation fighters also cannot carry more than 4 AMRAAMS +2 SRAAMs. They need to carry them within their belly and there are limits to what they can carry. More importantly their mission profile will not require them to do so and the way you fight with a stealth plane is totally different.
A

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## Trango Towers

araz said:


> Bhai saheb.
> Sometimes it is smart to ask why when a/person has expressed an opinion. You might end up learning something. Aircrafts will never go out with a full load out but instead with enough to serve the purposes of theor assignment. If you load an air craft to that extent do you think it will stay in an arena long enough to fire 22 AMRAAMs? The likelihood is he may fire 1-2 and at best 4 missiles. I cannot recqll a single incident where any aircraft has gone in with a FULL LOADOUT and expended all its missiles. Perhaps you might know and I would be happy to learn.
> The F15 loadout would be more than most planes because most of its-assignments are long distance requiring loitering and it may come in contact with more than one adversary. Reloading might not be an option over the sea/ enemy terrain. However I would still say the load out of 22 AMRAAMs would be totally impractical.
> The 5th generation fighters also cannot carry more than 4 AMRAAMS +2 SRAAMs. They need to carry them within their belly and there are limits to what they can carry. More importantly their mission profile will not require them to do so and the way y9u fight with a stealth plane is totally different.
> A


22 looool can you see the problem with airflow on that beast?

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## araz

Trango Towers said:


> 22 looool can you see the problem with airflow on that beast?


Do you remember the RAF flying the Typhoon with a full load out at one of the Farnborough air shows. Do you remember how much its maneouverability was affected.
A

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## kursed

The Terminator said:


> May be J-10CP induction could prove to be a gateway of strong persuasions for the F-16V Block70 upgrades to come here in Pakistan. You know what I mean!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *As JF-17 Thunder proved to be enabler of more modern F-16s to follow and join PAF. US every now and then needs that kind of persuasions. 🥰🥰🥰😍😍🥰


I do think that Block 70s were a possibility before PAF went for the J10s, certainly not after it. This is just my opinion. PAF made the call to change the strategic direction of their acquisition program, for a good reason. They've pretty much given up on getting modern F-16s, unless something drastic occurs.

I do think they'd still try and get older F-16 models, run them through some upgrades via TAI. But that's about it.

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## Trango Towers

araz said:


> Do you remember the RAF flying the Typhoon with a full load out. Do you remember how much its maneouverability was affected.
> A


Bhai I am aerospace engineer.

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> BVR combat will not result in WVR combat---I told you guys over a decade ago---and I am telling you again---.
> 
> Only in error---will they come close. That is what would make a superior aircraft into a 50 / 50 win / lose position.
> 
> You need to stop playing DCS world games---.
> 
> Specially with the advent of modern off bore sight missiles---the game of wvr has changed---.
> 
> Even on feb 27th---the superior enemy did not chose merge but rather flew away---.


Yes, BVR will not lead to WVR because the Pk is increasing and 10 years ago I wrote that HOBS make a WVR merge deadly when Indians were harping on their TVC superiority.

That being said, if you intend to drive the enemy back from an area to establish air superiority you do not launch BVRs and then run away. You either kill the enemy, make them run away or bring them into a point where you can shoot at them while keeping out of their weapons engagement zone. The 27th you keep harping on as if you are were some prophet of air combat was the Indians choosing not to engage and bug out with their premier BVR assets. Had they stuck around it would be a BVR slinging contest with them outgunned for the most part but trying to push the PAF back or merge.

Interestingly the actual professional Chogy(former F-15 driver) put the same here as well back then but I don’t recall anything worthwhile you said that makes you some sage to throw condescending statements on playing DCS out as if you have any better life experience than selling automobiles or trucks and at best are equipped to offer advice on dooleys.

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## Clutch




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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

At present , Dragon-10 (J10) numbers are quite modest so the impact is marginal improvement
We will have to induct *100-150 *such planes to see major difference

JF-17 we have normally seen *Twin BVR *IN most images , in certain cases it can *carry 4 Missiles* , it is normally sufficient for regional patrol


*Dragon-10 (J10)* is giving us *4-6 BVR missiles * it serves the purpose we need it for.

*2-Dragon-10 (J10)* = *12 BVR missiles*

*3 JF-17 Thunder **= 12 BVR missiles *

or Introduce Trimissile Racks 

The plane count can be increased or We can induct more SAMs on ground


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## Akasa

For all the talk about how many BVRAAMs the J-10C can carry, keep in mind that PAF JF-17s have been sporting dual-ejector racks and I'm sure CAC will heed the feedback provided by PAF pilots on what the J-10C excels in and what it can improve on.

Now, one key capability that the J-10C lacks is standoff air-to-surface strike. China does not yet have an equivalent of the SCALP or Storm Shadow missile, so PAF would need to either integrate Ra'ad-1/2 onto the J-10C or wait for such a missile to appear. The J-10C and Rafale should be roughly comparable in the air-to-air domain, but the Rafale has a distinct advantage in air-to-surface capabilities due to its higher payload capacity, greater number of pre-existing hardpoints, and the availability of the SCALP missile.

And don't say that the YJ-83K or GB-6A are standoff missiles; they're not and the latter is more comparable to a powered JSOW than a true ALCM. The PLAAF has treated the J-10C as a pure air-to-air bird and now the ball is in Pakistan's court to turn it into a true multirole fighter like what CAC claims.

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## Beast

Akasa said:


> For all the talk about how many BVRAAMs the J-10C can carry, keep in mind that PAF JF-17s have been sporting dual-ejector racks and I'm sure CAC will heed the feedback provided by PAF pilots on what the J-10C excels in and what it can improve on.
> 
> Now, one key capability that the J-10C lacks is standoff air-to-surface strike. China does not yet have an equivalent of the SCALP or Storm Shadow missile, so PAF would need to either integrate Ra'ad-1/2 onto the J-10C or wait for such a missile to appear. The J-10C and Rafale should be roughly comparable in the air-to-air domain, but the Rafale has a distinct advantage in air-to-surface capabilities due to its higher payload capacity, greater number of pre-existing hardpoints, and the availability of the SCALP missile.
> 
> And don't say that the YJ-83K or GB-6A are standoff missiles; they're not and the latter is more comparable to a powered JSOW than a true ALCM. The PLAAF has treated the J-10C as a pure air-to-air bird and now the ball is in Pakistan's court to turn it into a true multirole fighter like what CAC claims.


J-10C is more heavily emphasize on air superiority. I dont think PAF is also concern about J-10C lack of stand off missiles. Multi-role is an area where Rafale did indeed excel J-10C. J-10C are bought to neutralize the threat of Rafale trying to wrestle air control from Pakistan. 

PLAAF has J-16 and JH-7A to do all these strike jobs. That is why J-10C remain specialize in air superiority.

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## applesauce

Akasa said:


> For all the talk about how many BVRAAMs the J-10C can carry, keep in mind that PAF JF-17s have been sporting dual-ejector racks and I'm sure CAC will heed the feedback provided by PAF pilots on what the J-10C excels in and what it can improve on.
> 
> Now, one key capability that the J-10C lacks is standoff air-to-surface strike. China does not yet have an equivalent of the SCALP or Storm Shadow missile, so PAF would need to either integrate Ra'ad-1/2 onto the J-10C or wait for such a missile to appear. The J-10C and Rafale should be roughly comparable in the air-to-air domain, but the Rafale has a distinct advantage in air-to-surface capabilities due to its higher payload capacity, greater number of pre-existing hardpoints, and the availability of the SCALP missile.
> 
> And don't say that the YJ-83K or GB-6A are standoff missiles; they're not and the latter is more comparable to a powered JSOW than a true ALCM. The PLAAF has treated the J-10C as a pure air-to-air bird and now the ball is in Pakistan's court to turn it into a true multirole fighter like what CAC claims.



the j-10 doesnt carry standoff missiles. mostly because it doesnt need to. the PLAAf has flanker variants, jh-7A and H-6 in large numbers for that purpose.

however, it shouldn't be too difficult in the grand scheme of things to integrate one, like the various KH-55 variants/domestic developments of that china has or yj-12

if the jh-7A could carry it, then it shouldn't a huge issue for the j-10 to be able to as well.

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## cssniper

My opinion is that 4BVR missles and 2WVR missles are enough for most scenarios.
It's good for a plane like F15EX to have the ability to carry so many missles, but these extra payloads do not come with no price, they will significantly reduce the performance of the aircraft especially for a medium size fighter.
I myself is not satisfied with the design of J-10C just like many other PDF members.
Just compared to F-16 which is also a medium size fighter with single engine, it has wing-tip pylons(remember these pylons can carry BVR missles), triple-rack for LGBs, and the inner wing pylons have no problems with all kinds of payloads.
J-10A is an early design for CAC, it's not perfect compared to the American ones. J-10C inherited the design with flaws, but J-10C is a mature design, and it's deadly enough in the right hands.
For PAF, they had proved that they would defend the nation no matter what they've got, I think they will be satisfied with this one.

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## PanzerKiel

araz said:


> Do you remember the RAF flying the Typhoon with a full load out. Do you remember how much its maneouverability was affected.
> A


I know several cases of our Blk 52s being beaten by another aircraft of our PAF in WVR dogfights just because their CFTs don't allow them to pull more Gs and tighter turns.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Akasa said:


> For all the talk about how many BVRAAMs the J-10C can carry, keep in mind that PAF JF-17s have been sporting dual-ejector racks and I'm sure CAC will heed the feedback provided by PAF pilots on what the J-10C excels in and what it can improve on.
> 
> Now, one key capability that the J-10C lacks is standoff air-to-surface strike. China does not yet have an equivalent of the SCALP or Storm Shadow missile, so PAF would need to either integrate Ra'ad-1/2 onto the J-10C or wait for such a missile to appear. The J-10C and Rafale should be roughly comparable in the air-to-air domain, but the Rafale has a distinct advantage in air-to-surface capabilities due to its higher payload capacity, greater number of pre-existing hardpoints, and the availability of the SCALP missile.
> 
> And don't say that the YJ-83K or GB-6A are standoff missiles; they're not and the latter is more comparable to a powered JSOW than a true ALCM. The PLAAF has treated the J-10C as a pure air-to-air bird and now the ball is in Pakistan's court to turn it into a true multirole fighter like what CAC claims.




Pakistan has ample *Ground to Ground* standoff weapons options , the delivery from Fighter Jet is just one avenue for delivery. These can hit targets with error figure of 1-2 meters and that is generally , close enough range to take out considerable radius , not just the target itself.

Pakistan does not exclusively need Babur or Raad deivery from Dragon-10 (J10) , the Thunders are able to help , plus the Babur can also be launched from mobile platform

However , the delivery options are confidential info with PAF certain info is disclosed when time comes

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## Nomad40

Raider 21 said:


> @JamD another one....


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## cssniper

For the discussion of sensitive technologies, I think China will be ok if PAF would like to fly J10C with USAF. 
It's really nothing big. 
It was a little over-nevous for the US government when they requested serious restrictions for PAF's F-16. This really did not surprise us. 

The pilots are proud people, PAF will surely defend their assets. And pilots from USAF while interested in J-10C, they will want to face it only in the air. 

I think what's really the problem is some CIA guys... 
They would be happy to pay for some intelligence from the aircraft or missle it carried, and anyone could be lack of money. 
Both sides for China and Pakistan could forsee this, and they will surely be prepared. So relax my friends, let the right person to do the right thing.

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## Deltadart

tphuang said:


> Will you stop saying things like J-10C is not a frontline fighter for PLAAF? J-10C and J-16 are the same generation fighter. The only reason J-16 will get a longer production run is the same reason F-15EX is still getting produced. PLAAF needs a long range bomb truck and EW platform long after it has large number of stealth aircraft. There is no evidence J-16 technologies in radar and avionics is ahead of J-10C. There is a reason J-10C still does so well against J-16 in DACT. It's a great aircraft.
> 
> Now, as for letting out secrecy. It's definitely a concern for PLAAF that USAF may get a look at it. I think there are certain implicit understanding between PLAAF and PAF on what is okay and what is not okay. After all, USAF does not even let any F-16 users conduct DACT against PLAAF. Which is kind of crazy when you consider that PLAAF essentially conducts DACT with ROCAF F-16Vs on a monthly basis. I suspect that PAF conducting regular exercises with J-10C with non-NATO countries (and probably Turkey) is okay, but PLAAF would not want USAF to get an extended look at it.


J10s will be shielded from the prying eyes of those who want to know it's secrets.

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## NA71

SQ8 said:


> Why Pakistanis cannot spell Rafale is beyond me…. Its R A F A L E.. not Rafael like the Israeli defense company or Raphael like the Italian artist or Raffall which is the name of a lottery firm.
> 
> The J-10CP is likely going to be closely guarded but based on the ridiculous theories of it being compromised for F-16Vs it seems we are gathering a tik tok level crowd of wanting to just gaslight things for fun rather than actually realizing what they are talking about.


Don't worry bro Bilawal or Maryam will be our next PM.... both have much to offer ...specially billo. Actually PPP has already said we do not need these toys....so US should wait ...we will present them juicy radar emissions for analysis.



The Terminator said:


> Disease:
> That's called Viral Expats Syndrome. It usually occurs when someone from Pakistan visits a well developed and rich country for the extended period of time.
> 
> Symptoms:
> Allergic form everything related to Pakistan specially Pakistanis and their attitude.
> All Pakistanis are all laid back persons, have nothing to do except gossips 24/7 and pulling each other's legs.
> Screwed Law and Justice system in Pakistan (which is actually a correct assumption)
> Those illiterate, uncivilized mob of people!
> Assessing Pakistan through their current region's lens and observe if the 2 countries are closely aligned or not. If aligned then brag a lot about that and if not then screw you Pakistanis, you need to change yourself.
> Try to revolutionize Pakistan in a blink of an eye and copy your current country's "far superior" system in Pakistan.
> And lately there's been a pandemic in Pakistani expats of supporting PTI. And that's ok actually aren't supporting any party but wish to bring about change in regime and system. But it's just a wishful thinking.
> 
> Have been through that phase personally and have experienced each and every bit of that disease for years myself. 😉
> 
> 
> Cure:
> And it has a simple cure. Just come and start living here. You would observe how a lot of things that wouldn't be even possible to think of can be done in Pakistan and the relaxation/liberties we experience here can't be found anywhere in those boring developed countries. Then you truly start praising the raw freedom of this land and would never want to change a bit. But to truly experience those blessings you would first have give up that damn passport/visa/nationality which alienates you from your motherland


Have personal experience ....two of my family members have these symptoms....in advance stages

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## kursed

SQ8 said:


> Mayne not a MNA for 20-30 dollars but an entire sectarian financing network was being run with certain people bought for around $350 within LE. So a variety of people are available based on requirements.
> 
> The J-10 will remain secure, but that doesn’t mean attempts will not be made to compromise it. I’ll check in ten years to see posts and news in that regard


Hey, we can always discuss the rate a certain DGMO charged for services rendered to a foreign intelligence agency as well. And completely agreed with the point you’re making.

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## vi-va

applesauce said:


> the j-10 doesnt carry standoff missiles. mostly because it doesnt need to. the PLAAf has flanker variants, jh-7A and H-6 in large numbers for that purpose.
> 
> however, it shouldn't be too difficult in the grand scheme of things to integrate one, like the various KH-55 variants/domestic developments of that china has or yj-12
> 
> if the jh-7A could carry it, then it shouldn't a huge issue for the j-10 to be able to as well.
> View attachment 821523


yj-12 is a big issue for J-10, too large, too heavy.

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## Big_bud

JohnWick said:


> A question @Deino
> F-35 can carry 14 BVR missiles
> F-15 can carry 14 BVR missiles
> F/A-18 super Hornet can carry 10 BVRs
> F/A-18 Hornet can carry 8 BVRs
> How many J-10 can carry only 4 ?
> View attachment 821310










If you buy this one... this can carry like 100 of those BVRs! So... doesn't prove anything!

Be careful though... you load too many and even these can tip over!






Moral of the story, no aircraft needs to carry 12-14 BVRs at once. + you are comparing large fighter jets payload to medium category ones.

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## Deino

applesauce said:


> the j-10 doesnt carry standoff missiles. mostly because it doesnt need to. the PLAAf has flanker variants, jh-7A and H-6 in large numbers for that purpose.
> 
> however, it shouldn't be too difficult in the grand scheme of things to integrate one, like the various KH-55 variants/domestic developments of that china has or yj-12
> 
> if the jh-7A could carry it, then it shouldn't a huge issue for the j-10 to be able to as well.
> View attachment 821523




Oh please … it is not possible to integrate the KD-20 ALCM and/or YJ-12 onto the J-10! Did you check the size of these missiles.

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## The Terminator

Big_bud said:


> View attachment 821534
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you buy this one... this can carry like 100 of those BVRs! So... doesn't prove anything!
> 
> Be careful though... you load too many and even these can tip over!
> 
> View attachment 821535
> 
> 
> Moral of the story, no aircraft needs to carry 12-14 BVRs at once. + you are comparing large fighter jets payload to medium category ones.


But we know how to tame them


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## MastanKhan

SQ8 said:


> Also @The Terminator , think of it this way..* I was born in the country and people I am insulting and spent 25 years of my life in. I am feeling the disdain of it as well and the people I am pointing fingers at include folks I know personally*



Hi,

A moment of reckoning---.


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## Falcon26

Akasa said:


> For all the talk about how many BVRAAMs the J-10C can carry, keep in mind that PAF JF-17s have been sporting dual-ejector racks and I'm sure CAC will heed the feedback provided by PAF pilots on what the J-10C excels in and what it can improve on.
> 
> Now, one key capability that the J-10C lacks is standoff air-to-surface strike. China does not yet have an equivalent of the SCALP or Storm Shadow missile, so PAF would need to either integrate Ra'ad-1/2 onto the J-10C or wait for such a missile to appear. The J-10C and Rafale should be roughly comparable in the air-to-air domain, but the Rafale has a distinct advantage in air-to-surface capabilities due to its higher payload capacity, greater number of pre-existing hardpoints, and the availability of the SCALP missile.
> 
> And don't say that the YJ-83K or GB-6A are standoff missiles; they're not and the latter is more comparable to a powered JSOW than a true ALCM. The PLAAF has treated the J-10C as a pure air-to-air bird and now the ball is in Pakistan's court to turn it into a true multirole fighter like what CAC claims.



Integrate the Turkish SOM-missile on J-10C abs problem is eliminated.


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## Oruc

Sheikhooo just predicted in press conference that I don't know when but IA we will see j 20 also in PAF colors

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500732072079798273

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## Wesen Hunter

SQ8 said:


> Having a lot of missiles does have its advantages in that you can lob two per target or engage 4 at once with 8 in track while scan mode.
> However, the equation then shifts to the missiles and the kinematics of the launch.
> So far the MKI’s integration with the i-Derby has gone nowhere and the Astra isn’t deployed either. So with their R-27s and R-77s the MKIs need the payload just to score a decent kill.
> 
> Finally, no one is still asking the performance of a Su-30(or F-15EX) fully laden with missiles and internal fuel



Plz allow a correction:
Astra has already been integrated with multiple Su-30MKI squadrons with the first being No. 15 sqn who got the patch 'Astra Pioneers' awarded to them for completing Astra integration along with necessary techniques.

Plus on top of that BDL confirmed last week that with current order of 250 Astra for IAF on verge of being completed, it is now ready for more mass orders







Last month it was also fielded in exercise with Omani F-16 Blk 50 with Astra turning out to have slightly larger engagement envelope than Aim-120C5

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## Air Wolf

The Terminator said:


> Disease:
> That's called Viral Expats Syndrome. It usually occurs when someone from Pakistan visits a well developed and rich country for the extended period of time.
> 
> Symptoms:
> Allergic form everything related to Pakistan specially Pakistanis and their attitude.
> All Pakistanis are all laid back persons, have nothing to do except gossips 24/7 and pulling each other's legs.
> Screwed Law and Justice system in Pakistan (which is actually a correct assumption)
> Those illiterate, uncivilized mob of people!
> Assessing Pakistan through their current region's lens and observe if the 2 countries are closely aligned or not. If aligned then brag a lot about that and if not then screw you Pakistanis, you need to change yourself.
> Try to revolutionize Pakistan in a blink of an eye and copy your current country's "far superior" system in Pakistan.
> And lately there's been a pandemic in Pakistani expats of supporting PTI. And that's ok actually aren't supporting any party but wish to bring about change in regime and system. But it's just a wishful thinking.
> 
> Have been through that phase personally and have experienced each and every bit of that disease for years myself. 😉
> 
> 
> Cure:
> And it has a simple cure. Just come and start living here. You would observe how a lot of things that wouldn't be even possible to think of can be done in Pakistan and the relaxation/liberties we experience here can't be found anywhere in those boring developed countries. Then you truly start praising the raw freedom of this land and would never want to change a bit. But to truly experience those blessings you would first have give up that damn passport/visa/nationality which alienates you from your motherland



On point diagnosis...couldn't have worded it better. 

Just to add, barring exceptions, the disease is more rampant in the segment residing in west as opposed to the ones in Middle East.

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## TNT

The Terminator said:


> Disease:
> That's called Viral Expats Syndrome. It usually occurs when someone from Pakistan visits a well developed and rich country for the extended period of time.
> 
> Symptoms:
> Allergic form everything related to Pakistan specially Pakistanis and their attitude.
> All Pakistanis are all laid back persons, have nothing to do except gossips 24/7 and pulling each other's legs.
> Screwed Law and Justice system in Pakistan (which is actually a correct assumption)
> Those illiterate, uncivilized mob of people!
> Assessing Pakistan through their current region's lens and observe if the 2 countries are closely aligned or not. If aligned then brag a lot about that and if not then screw you Pakistanis, you need to change yourself.
> Try to revolutionize Pakistan in a blink of an eye and copy your current country's "far superior" system in Pakistan.
> And lately there's been a pandemic in Pakistani expats of supporting PTI. And that's ok actually aren't supporting any party but wish to bring about change in regime and system. But it's just a wishful thinking.
> 
> Have been through that phase personally and have experienced each and every bit of that disease for years myself. 😉
> 
> 
> Cure:
> And it has a simple cure. Just come and start living here. You would observe how a lot of things that wouldn't be even possible to think of can be done in Pakistan and the relaxation/liberties we experience here can't be found anywhere in those boring developed countries. Then you truly start praising the raw freedom of this land and would never want to change a bit. But to truly experience those blessings you would first have give up that damn passport/visa/nationality which alienates you from your motherland



Sorry to jump in but what u say is true for the small privileged class. They enjoy the raw freedom because they can pay there way through everything. Even getting away with murder is easy, just pay few laakh as blood money. Need anything done? Be it illegal, just pay. This something we should be shameful about and u inturn are proud of it.
He is right when he says u can buy everything in Pakistan. I swear show me one single deppt or institute where u cant use money for ur personal work? Even PhD degrees to jobs to transfers, everything is sold and its something worrying and shameful. Instead of putting ur head in the sand and getting angry on fake nationalism, u should use that nationalism to raise issues n fix it. But it seems u r one of those who enjoy what u call "raw freedom" and take advantage of it. You never realize how ur raw freedom affects the poor and deserving ppl and how its destroying the country from inside.

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## Engima Chaudhry

PanzerKiel said:


> I know several cases of our Blk 52s being beaten by another aircraft of our PAF in WVR dogfights just because their CFTs don't allow them to pull more Gs and tighter turns.


Agreed . I read somewhere that f16 block 60 of uaeaf can only pull 7gs because of the cfts.



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Pakistan has ample *Ground to Ground* standoff weapons options , the delivery from Fighter Jet is just one avenue for delivery. These can hit targets with error figure of 1-2 meters and that is generally , close enough range to take out considerable radius , not just the target itself.
> 
> Pakistan does not exclusively need Babur or Raad deivery from Dragon-10 (J10) , the Thunders are able to help , plus the Babur can also be launched from mobile platform
> 
> However , the delivery options are confidential info with PAF certain info is disclosed when time comes


Baeidou military provides millimeter precision.



Big_bud said:


> View attachment 821534
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you buy this one... this can carry like 100 of those BVRs! So... doesn't prove anything!
> 
> Be careful though... you load too many and even these can tip over!
> 
> View attachment 821535
> 
> 
> Moral of the story, no aircraft needs to carry 12-14 BVRs at once. + you are comparing large fighter jets payload to medium category ones.


One amraam weighs about 152 kgs.
22× 152=3344 kgs(7356 lbs).
F15 would definitely act like this truck


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## Engima Chaudhry

JohnWick said:


> F-15 EX which is currently on order can carry 22 AIM-120 AMRAAMS
> What does it shows
> Pardon me butt, 4 F-15 EX can carry more bvr missiles then a whole squadron of J-10 !


22 amraams = total weight 7356 pounds.


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## Salza

So as per SR, 25 J10Cs have landed in Pakistan ....there should be more pictures by now ....anyone plz!

@PanzerKiel report here please with new pics and latest stats

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## JohnWick

Engima Chaudhry said:


> 22 amraams = total weight 7356 pounds.


Boeing advertises that it can structurally carry up to 22.
• 4x AIM-120 per each CFT (8 total under the aircraft)
• 4x AAMs on each inboard wing pylon (8 total)
• 3x AAMs on each outboard wing pylon (6 total)




F-15SA, a precursor for the F-15EX, showing the outer wing pylons with 2x AAMs each





Boeing F-15E outfitted with AMBER rack prototypes on lower weapon stations and 4x AIM-120s on the inboard wing pylon

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## V. Makarov

JohnWick said:


> F-15 EX which is currently on order can carry 22 AIM-120 AMRAAMS
> What does it shows
> Pardon me butt, 4 F-15 EX can carry more bvr missiles then a whole squadron of J-10 !

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## JohnWick

Big_bud said:


> View attachment 821534
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you buy this one... this can carry like 100 of those BVRs! So... doesn't prove anything!
> 
> Be careful though... you load too many and even these can tip over!
> 
> View attachment 821535
> 
> 
> Moral of the story, no aircraft needs to carry 12-14 BVRs at once. + you are comparing large fighter jets payload to medium category ones.


Comparing truck with F-15 in which world are you living ?
And first go and learn sth about BVR engagement, the missile do the job of maneuvers the plane is just a launch pad
Ever heard of loyal wingman or stingray ????
These unmanned aircraft used just to carry additional BVRs
Boeing CAC are spending billions of dollars to get more bvr in the air but they don't get a Truck of yours

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## serenity

vi-va said:


> yj-12 is a big issue for J-10, too large, too heavy.



Yeah. J-10 definitely cannot carry YJ-12. Even JH-7 cannot carry YJ-12. Only current air carry of YJ-12 is H-6.

YJ-12 is HUGE. For bomber carry and ship launch.

China's stand off weapons are HGVs, ballistic missiles, and artillery forces. China has more rocket artillery weapon types and units than rest of the world combined. There is no way to understate how many pieces of artillery and rocket PLA has. There is the stand off weapon. PLAAF fighters are mostly tasked with air superiority. From which drones, JH-7, H-6 perform any further large scale bombardment duties that PLARF may want some more air based large scale additional bombardment from. Fighters can perform small scale ones too but China has stockpiled tens of thousands of land attack cruise missiles of just the CJ-10 types. Higher end weapons include HGV.

Each country has very different to slightly different way of war. They have different expected types of wars. Very different approach to war.

Stealth stand off weapons for PLA just hasn't been something they considered important. Instead they considered A2AD weapons important and air superiority role for PLAAF fighters as main task rather than bombing or precision strike although that is doable with KD series missiles and YJ series missiles that can be carried on fighters even as lightweight as J-10.

Western airforces and the types of wars they have been running do place high importance on having SEAD capabilities. China is mainly facing defensive land war for regional threats and A2AD type naval war for US threat. SEAD is nowhere near as important. Naval war is primary importance along with A2AD.

If there is a regional war between India and China over hard to reach Himalayas, then SEAD and stealthy stand off missiles become slightly more important but the plan would be to wipe clean every single Indian base with 10,000 ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, HGVs, and fight to gain air superiority, after that, SEAD can be performed by YJ and KD series in huge numbers and bombing of land forces without resistance. GJ-11 stealth UCAV is mainly tasked with SEAD. Totally out of range of short to medium range SAMs which India only has if we ignore S-400. If we account for S-400, those units have to be defeated via electronic attack and stealth based S&D-EAD like GJ-11 but just in higher numbers. J-20 too can perform such a duty. Even if required, rocket forces with over 100km range can wipe clean areas where there are S-400. It becomes a land war and if there is air superiority, the land war is beyond easy in open terrain.

India has zero defence against GJ-11 currently not to mention a combined PLAAF performing S&D-EAD and maintaining air superiority. PLARF is over 20 times the size of Indian artillery and rocket forces. While China has over 30,000 CJ-10 land attack cruise missiles (as hinted stockpiled in case of Taiwan war escalation) India has yet to induct Nirbhay cruise missile.

The most important thing after true stand off range - cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, HGVs, 100km+ rocket artillery, is air superiority. Air superiority is a must to achieve easy land force victory through simply allowing long range artillery to strike their positions while those distance units are protected by ... air superiority.

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## V. Makarov

The Terminator said:


> Cure:
> And it has a simple cure. Just come and start living here (Pakistan). *You would observe how a lot of things that wouldn't be even possible to think of can be done in Pakistan and the relaxation/liberties we experience here can't be found anywhere in those boring developed countries. Then you truly start praising the raw freedom of this land and would never want to change a bit*. But to truly experience those blessings you would first have give up that damn passport/visa/nationality which alienates you from your motherland



When an overseas Pakistani comes back to Pakistan after making enough money to transition into the upper-middle class, these freedoms, liberties and relaxations are "*unlocked*". For the remaining 89% of the people, these freedoms are still "*locked*". The bottom 89% still has to:

1) Bribe officials for trivial tasks
2) Face the wrath of the tyrant police service
3) Give 55% of the monthly salary in electricity bills
4) serve the full sentence instead of walking away not guilty.
5) Get the inheritance property seized by the local mafia.
6) Get the remaining property seized by own relatives because they bribed the local officials.
7) And also realize the fact that access to quick and reasonable justice is the privilege of the rich.

(These are the problems I have seen with my own eyes in the past 5 years only)

The bottom line is, the freedoms/liberties/relaxations of ANY DEVELOPING country belongs only to the rich, and the people with powerful positions. Others only suffer in the shadows, praying for a government that can provide a country with good social security, low corruption, meritocracy etc. Because if these things are not present, they are exploited by the rich, and the cycle of poverty and disparity continues.

_If an overseas Pakistani finds it very convenient to get around bureaucratic red tape after coming back to Pakistan, and is really enjoying the "exciting" liberties of Pakistan, it's almost certain that he has made it in the top 11% of the 220 million population. _

_My post is not an attempt to criminalize the rich for their role in the society, but just an expression of the ground realities in Pakistan. The pious thing to do is to not rub those liberties generally onto the face of the remaining Pakistanis. They know these liberties exist, and they cannot achieve them in their lifetime.

@TNT _

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## Guli Danda Expert

Ppl are talking about f16 and bla bla. USA is not going to give you any top noch technolgy now this chapter has been close. The dreamers are somehow can have dreams. If they want to contain china they ll have to neutralize pakistan simple is that they ll not leave pakistan to engage india otherwise containing china ll not b possible. Unfortunately china understand this but some pakistanis not.

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## Trango Towers

The Terminator said:


> Disease:
> That's called Viral Expats Syndrome. It usually occurs when someone from Pakistan visits a well developed and rich country for the extended period of time.
> 
> Symptoms:
> Allergic form everything related to Pakistan specially Pakistanis and their attitude.
> All Pakistanis are all laid back persons, have nothing to do except gossips 24/7 and pulling each other's legs.
> Screwed Law and Justice system in Pakistan (which is actually a correct assumption)
> Those illiterate, uncivilized mob of people!
> Assessing Pakistan through their current region's lens and observe if the 2 countries are closely aligned or not. If aligned then brag a lot about that and if not then screw you Pakistanis, you need to change yourself.
> Try to revolutionize Pakistan in a blink of an eye and copy your current country's "far superior" system in Pakistan.
> And lately there's been a pandemic in Pakistani expats of supporting PTI. And that's ok actually aren't supporting any party but wish to bring about change in regime and system. But it's just a wishful thinking.
> 
> Have been through that phase personally and have experienced each and every bit of that disease for years myself. 😉
> 
> 
> Cure:
> And it has a simple cure. Just come and start living here. You would observe how a lot of things that wouldn't be even possible to think of can be done in Pakistan and the relaxation/liberties we experience here can't be found anywhere in those boring developed countries. Then you truly start praising the raw freedom of this land and would never want to change a bit. But to truly experience those blessings you would first have give up that damn passport/visa/nationality which alienates you from your motherland


Just this morning put a complaint into the citizens portal for a corrupt tax officer who is demanding tax from 2014 when in this society the 1st time anyone got a tax bill was 2020 and we received ours 2022. How can you charge late payments when no tax bill was issued. Then he told us if we pay him and he banks the tax he will will reduce it by 2 lakh. Loool.
The property in question is my late father's and 100% of the rent money goes to charity. His sadiqa jariaya. Even the rents we charge are way way below market value to help the small businesses.
Corruptions is a disease that our beloved Quid (may Allah forgive him and us all) focused on in his 1st speech on the creation of Pakistan.

So when you wave the flag...I am all for it. But fix the issues man.

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## Invictus01

Trango Towers said:


> Bhai I am aerospace engineer.



Weren't you a dermatologist in another thread?

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## Trango Towers

Invictus01 said:


> Weren't you a dermatologist in another thread?


Loooool I was taking the piss. Was that you who was the fake doctor with cut and paste?


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## Chak Bamu

This thread seems to have lost its direction. We need more pictures. Are you listening PAF? We are hungry. Feed us. LOL...

OK, a few things on a serious note - its a bit of OD but please bear with me.

1. Stop ridiculing each other. I did not think I would see seniors being ridiculed like this by know-nothing up-starts. Idiots, one & all. Y'all can be civil but you have to take your frustrations out on others in the name of patriotism, as though the others are less so.

2. Pakistan's relations & strategic orientation has definitely shifted - J-10CP being an indicator of it. The recent pronouncements from PM make it seem as though it is an irreversible swing & I regret his choice of words. Populism is cheap. He is looking at a desperate situation that is mostly of his own making & people should be careful in ascribing his fortunes to Western conspiracies. Establishment or no Establishment, the strategic direction would still be the same. A saner leader would make the shift seem gradual & without the current bombast. It does not suit Pakistan's interests to brazenly commit to blocs. We must navigate to our advantage without antagonizing others.

3. It is in Pakistan's interest to maintain a strong position & then try to find peace partners in the region, including India. Yes, India because long term prosperity of the region is in making peace, improving connectivity, & reaping dividends. We must look beyond Modi & BJP. Having strong allies & having parity in weapons with our enemies should put us on road to peace, not war. If we are well-connected & secure, we do not need to belong to any bloc. Chinese BRI is a game-changer for the region. If sanity prevails in India, they would see it too. We can work for the region instead of playing bloc politics. Again, populism is cheap & easy. It takes vision to look beyond the obvious.

I foresee a change in thinking in the wake of the Russia-Ukraine war. We should use this opportunity for peace. Pakistan, China, & India should be partners in peace and to me it is quite obvious that this is where future lies. The only use of weapons is to make us secure so that we may approach future with confidence. J-10 should help us do that.

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## siegecrossbow

Engima Chaudhry said:


> 22 amraams = total weight 7356 pounds.



Weight isn’t the issue. Real problem is that your aerodynamics get ruined.

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## Zarvan

Chak Bamu said:


> This thread seems to have lost its direction. We need more pictures. Are you listening PAF? We are hungry. Feed us. LOL...
> 
> OK, a few things on a serious note - its a bit of OD but please bear with me.
> 
> 1. Stop ridiculing each other. I did not think I would see seniors being ridiculed like this by know-nothing up-starts. Idiots, one & all. Y'all can be civil but you have to take your frustrations out on others in the name of patriotism, as though the others are less so.
> 
> 2. Pakistan's relations & strategic orientation has definitely shifted - J-10CP being an indicator of it. The recent pronouncements from PM make it seem as though it is an irreversible swing & I regret his choice of words. Populism is cheap. He is looking at a desperate situation that is mostly of his own making & people should be careful in ascribing his fortunes to Western conspiracies. Establishment or no Establishment, the strategic direction would still be the same. A saner leader would make the shift seem gradual & without the current bombast. It does not suit Pakistan's interests to brazenly commit to blocs. We must navigate to our advantage without antagonizing others.
> 
> 3. It is in Pakistan's interest to maintain a strong position & then try to find peace partners in the region, including India. Yes, India because long term prosperity of the region is in making peace, improving connectivity, & reaping dividends. We must look beyond Modi & BJP. Having strong allies & having parity in weapons with our enemies should put us on read to peace, not war. If we are well-connected & secure, we do not need to belong to any bloc. Chinese BRI is a game-changer for the region. If sanity prevails in India, they would see it too. We can work for the region instead of playing bloc politics. Again, populism is cheap & easy. It takes vision to look beyond the obvious.
> 
> I foresee a change in thinking in the wake of the Russia-Ukraine war. We should use this opportunity for peace. Pakistan, China, & India should be partners in peace and to me it is quite obvious that this is where future lies. The only use of weapons is to make us secure so that we may approach future with confidence. J-10 should help us do that.


What did I miss. Today my new semester starts and things get on fire here and I end up missing them. On serious note. If PAF is not asking Sheikh to leak stuff then somebody needs to talk to him. As for J-10 I really hope we get 25 by 23rd March and India will order more Rafale after seeing J-10 C flying on 23rd March INSHALLAH

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## Vapnope

Zarvan said:


> What did I miss. Today my new semester starts and things get on fire here and I end up missing them. On serious note. If PAF is not asking Sheikh to leak stuff then somebody needs to talk to him. As for J-10 I really hope we get 25 by 23rd March and India will order more Rafale after seeing J-10 C flying on 23rd March INSHALLAH


You should poke Alan warnes, you might push him to spill more beans 😛

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## johncliu88

Why are people comparing J-10C to F-15EX? They are not the same class. J-10 series were designed as air superior fighter jet while F-15E or EX are multi-route and air to ground striking tasks. If Pak air force needs a bombing truck, why not order some J-16 from China, which can carry 12 tons of ammo instead?

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## Readerdefence

johncliu88 said:


> Why are people comparing J-10C to F-15EX? They are not the same class. J-10 series were designed as air superior fighter jet while F-15E or EX are multi-route and air to ground striking tasks. If Pak air force needs a bombing truck, why not order some J-16 from China, which can carry 12 tons of ammo instead?


Hi exactly comparing a single engine with twin engine plane been around for too long and get upgrades accordingly 
thank you

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## Scorpiooo

johncliu88 said:


> Why are people comparing J-10C to F-15EX? They are not the same class. J-10 series were designed as air superior fighter jet while F-15E or EX are multi-route and air to ground striking tasks. If Pak air force needs a bombing truck, why not order some J-16 from China, which can carry 12 tons of ammo instead?


I coming year we will see twin engine heavyweight fighters in PAF or PN colour

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## PakShaheen79

Chak Bamu said:


> This thread seems to have lost its direction. We need more pictures. Are you listening PAF? We are hungry. Feed us. LOL...
> 
> OK, a few things on a serious note - its a bit of OD but please bear with me.
> 
> 1. Stop ridiculing each other. I did not think I would see seniors being ridiculed like this by know-nothing up-starts. Idiots, one & all. Y'all can be civil but you have to take your frustrations out on others in the name of patriotism, as though the others are less so.
> 
> 2. Pakistan's relations & strategic orientation has definitely shifted - J-10CP being an indicator of it. The recent pronouncements from PM make it seem as though it is an irreversible swing & I regret his choice of words. Populism is cheap. He is looking at a desperate situation that is mostly of his own making & people should be careful in ascribing his fortunes to Western conspiracies. Establishment or no Establishment, the strategic direction would still be the same. A saner leader would make the shift seem gradual & without the current bombast. It does not suit Pakistan's interests to brazenly commit to blocs. We must navigate to our advantage without antagonizing others.
> 
> 3. It is in Pakistan's interest to maintain a strong position & then try to find peace partners in the region, including India. Yes, India because long term prosperity of the region is in making peace, improving connectivity, & reaping dividends. We must look beyond Modi & BJP. Having strong allies & having parity in weapons with our enemies should put us on read to peace, not war. If we are well-connected & secure, we do not need to belong to any bloc. Chinese BRI is a game-changer for the region. If sanity prevails in India, they would see it too. We can work for the region instead of playing bloc politics. Again, populism is cheap & easy. It takes vision to look beyond the obvious.
> 
> I foresee a change in thinking in the wake of the Russia-Ukraine war. We should use this opportunity for peace. Pakistan, China, & India should be partners in peace and to me it is quite obvious that this is where future lies. The only use of weapons is to make us secure so that we may approach future with confidence. J-10 should help us do that.


A rare commodity. A post full of strategic thought and wisdom. My views on your views
1. I fully endorse what you wrote there.
2. I think many people are picking one question PM asks in public about West's view on Pakistan and its policies and are completely ignoring other sentences of the same speech where he said we are in no one's camp, we are friends with everyone in peace. Then he named EU, US, Russia and China with whom Pakistan seek friendship in peace. His views about EU must be seen in context particularly after how Poland and other Ukrainian neighbors are deciding who to accept in their country as a refugee. (Blond hair, Blue eyes)
3. I am in agreement with what you have suggested there viz-a-viz India. I also feel that the region will remain hostage of this enmity between India and Pakistan. And you proposed that we must look beyond BJP and Modi. Well, We can't look beyond, but we certainly can look at India before BJP+Modi to put things in perspective.

India, since 1971, has introduced 7 or 8 cycles of strategic instability in the region through its political-military doctrines/strategies towards Pakistan and each of these tells the same story about Indian foreign policy goals about Pakistan. Each time, Pakistan was the one which had to introduce stability back in the prevailing stability-instability paradigm in the region to ensure regional peace.
1. 1974: India went nuclear; Pakistan began its nuclear program.
2. 1983: India initiated her Integrated Ballistic Missile Program; Pakistani response came in 1989 with Hatf-1/ Hatf-2
3. 1986-87: Operation BrassTacks. Military buildup on border behind the facade of a military exercise. Pakistan's response and Zia's cricket diplomacy is part of the history now.
4. 1998: India went Overt with nuclear. Pakistan responded with 6 nuclear explosions. Rest is history.
5. 2001-02: Operation Parakaram. 10 months long stand-off. Pakistani response forced India to back off.
6. 2004: India introduced Pro-Active War Strategy / Cold Start Doctrine: India began seeking limited war under nuclear overhang. Pakistan introduced "_New_ Concept of War Fighting" (NCWF) backed with policies of Full Spectrum deterrence (for Nuclear forces) and Minimum Credible Deference (for Conventional forces).
7. 2019: Balakot Strike; Pakistan Surprised India in broad daylight, rest is history. But even then Indian rhetoric against Pakistan continuous, and she went ahead with indulging Pakistan in an arms race.
8: 2020 onwards: India became 3rd largest spender on military. Introduced Rafale/Meteor and other advanced capabilities ... Pakistan is responding through its own modernization of military. This current modernization of PAF at unprecedented levels is also due to this Indian poly now where She thinks Pakistan can be bankrupt through an armed race in the region. When did we see earlier in our history induction of so many high-tech systems in PAF all at once? (J-10C, JF-17 Block III, Drones, New missiles, Radars like YLC-18 and a new AD system which PAF is to get in near future.)

In this background, remember BJP/Modi entered this scene only in 2014 ... before that it was all Congress. I began with 1971, as this current Pakistan came into existence only then, else I would have listed 20 such occasions when India thought Pakistan is a walkover and this Indian mentality is the core of problem. It considers Pakistan another Bhutan or Nepal or Maldev which Pakistan certainly is not! As it always takes 2 to make a quarrel, it also takes 2 to make peace.

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## Materialistic

Big_bud said:


> You are right, those contracts and uncle SAMs interference is an issue. But I recall some analysts and air force veterans denied any such restrictions being part of the contract when 29th Feb happened. Are the details of that contract public? Does it explicitly bound us? If F16s were not bought to be used against India then why did we buy them in the first place? Considering our long history or wars with India. Is it speculated or confirmed information?



I think it will be counter-productive for both parties to openly acknowledge the terms. But it is an open secret and not just in case of the US but yes, US is the one with the most restrictions on usage. As for our procurement terms with reference to India there are two different eras, two different levels of relationships and usage.

Our initial F16 procurement was a direct purchase at that time and use against India was the prime role. US had no issues in fact they used to openly support us in the name of maintaining balance of power in South Asia. However, the later acquisitions were part of Coalition support against WoT (usage: anti-terrorism) and by this time our relations had deteriorated significantly and US had tilted towards India. India raised concerns and this time US's didn't refer to the balance of power instead these new birds/upgrades came for WoT. 
Hence, the issue.



Big_bud said:


> Here's an interesting read:
> 
> 
> 
> India and the US-Pakistan F-16 Agreement
> 
> 
> Also, almost always India would invade our airspace and try to bomb our installations first. Wouldn't a counter attack on their airports be considered a defensive role? Its a legal matter and contestable. We will not be going on an invasion spree. We are retaliating against a force who is attacking us. There is a lot of space for Pakistan to contest this. But would we? Thats the thing.
> 
> Maybe we wouldn't take risk considering Uncle SAMs closing ties with India and moodiness. However, once we induct J10cs in numbers, we already have replacement of F16s. Its not the only platform we are relying on for our defence. Hence we can be more risky with F16s.



The article is interesting and it makes sense that retaliation is considered a defensive act which does give us some more space. Agree, once we have J10s in required numbers then PAF would be happy keeping F16s to defensive roles only.

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## Dreamer.

چین J-10-C کی دوسری کھیپ آج پی اے ایف کے سپرد کریگا


اسلام آباد دنیا کا ایک جدید ترین لڑاکا J-10-C طیاروں کی...




jang.com.pk





News in Jang claiming that '2nd batch' of J-10 C's will arrive today 8th March, which will be _welcomed by Chief of Air Staff ACM Zaheer Babar_ and other officials. Also states that this batch will contain 6 aircraft, and that the 1st batch was received last week.

Now who is going to bring us the best pictures? (emphasis on best)

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## luciferdd

It's under test on foreign military aircraft,maybe PAF?Beside J10C or JF17 i really don't know which kind of chinese exported JET can load such big thing weight 1200KG.





Link:https://weibo.com/2348604107/LiJKd68Rb#comment

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## MultaniGuy

Okay, so where are those J-10Cs supposedly under PAF control?


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## Nomad40

MultaniGuy said:


> Okay, so where are those J-10Cs supposedly under PAF control?


Pakistan

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## MultaniGuy

Nomad40 said:


> Pakistan


I mean I want to see photographs.


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## Trango Towers

MultaniGuy said:


> I mean I want to see photographs.


Why ?? Its pay per view only loool

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## Ghessan

Vapnope said:


> You should poke Alan warnes, you might push him to spill more beans 😛



Alan it seems had no clue this time, even after it is revealed he did not make a tweet.

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## Salza

Dreamer. said:


> چین J-10-C کی دوسری کھیپ آج پی اے ایف کے سپرد کریگا
> 
> 
> اسلام آباد دنیا کا ایک جدید ترین لڑاکا J-10-C طیاروں کی...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jang.com.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> News in Jang claiming that '2nd batch' of J-10 C's will arrive today 8th March, which will be _welcomed by Chief of Air Staff ACM Zaheer Babar_ and other officials. Also states that this batch will contain 6 aircraft, and that the 1st batch was received last week.
> 
> Now who is going to bring us the best pictures? (emphasis on best)


If Air Chief is ariving at the base to welcome the new birds than probably it will be an official ceremony/event.


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## mingle

Salza said:


> If Air Chief is ariving at the base to welcome the new birds than probably it will be an official ceremony/event.


11th of this month PM will be Cheif guest both blk3 and J10C will be induct in same ceremony

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## White privilege

Engima Chaudhry said:


> 22 amraams = total weight 7356 pounds.


If we require that kind of a load out then we are barking up the wrong tree.Missile have their specific engagement envelope and also they induce drag.If we want more, we need to start looking into EMP and LASER weapon options.

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## Salza

mingle said:


> 11th of this month PM will be Cheif guest both blk3 and J10C will be induct in same ceremony


Is 11th March date confirmed for an official event ? I didn't noticed this date anywhere in the media. Anyways about time.


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## Areesh

Zarvan said:


> As for J-10 I really hope we get 25 by 23rd March and *India will order more Rafale after seeing J-10 C flying on 23rd March INSHALLAH*



Why would you pray for that?

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## Chak Bamu

Areesh said:


> Why would you pray for that?


Perhaps because India would likely not go for any other asset & Rafales would not be available quite as soon as India might hope. This would allow PAF to induct J-10 in growing numbers, thus maintaining parity (or an edge even). This course of action would commit IAF to a multi-year program from which it can not eke out a significant advantage. The next round would likely be stealth in, say, 7-9 years; & PAF would have already devised a solid plan about that.

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## TopGun786

Still no new Birds? The media said more were arriving today.

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## Marker

Chak Bamu said:


> This thread seems to have lost its direction. We need more pictures. Are you listening PAF? We are hungry. Feed us. LOL...
> 
> OK, a few things on a serious note - its a bit of OD but please bear with me.
> 
> 1. Stop ridiculing each other. I did not think I would see seniors being ridiculed like this by know-nothing up-starts. Idiots, one & all. Y'all can be civil but you have to take your frustrations out on others in the name of patriotism, as though the others are less so.
> 
> 2. Pakistan's relations & strategic orientation has definitely shifted - J-10CP being an indicator of it. The recent pronouncements from PM make it seem as though it is an irreversible swing & I regret his choice of words. Populism is cheap. He is looking at a desperate situation that is mostly of his own making & people should be careful in ascribing his fortunes to Western conspiracies. Establishment or no Establishment, the strategic direction would still be the same. A saner leader would make the shift seem gradual & without the current bombast. It does not suit Pakistan's interests to brazenly commit to blocs. We must navigate to our advantage without antagonizing others.
> 
> 3. It is in Pakistan's interest to maintain a strong position & then try to find peace partners in the region, including India. Yes, India because long term prosperity of the region is in making peace, improving connectivity, & reaping dividends. We must look beyond Modi & BJP. Having strong allies & having parity in weapons with our enemies should put us on road to peace, not war. If we are well-connected & secure, we do not need to belong to any bloc. Chinese BRI is a game-changer for the region. If sanity prevails in India, they would see it too. We can work for the region instead of playing bloc politics. Again, populism is cheap & easy. It takes vision to look beyond the obvious.
> 
> I foresee a change in thinking in the wake of the Russia-Ukraine war. We should use this opportunity for peace. Pakistan, China, & India should be partners in peace and to me it is quite obvious that this is where future lies. The only use of weapons is to make us secure so that we may approach future with confidence. J-10 should help us do that.


Is there a thread dedicated for geopolitical discussion? I humbly suggest that we should stick to the topic of the thread instead of posting a long post on other subject.

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## Trango Towers

V. Makarov said:


> View attachment 821593


Make in India f15ex



johncliu88 said:


> Why are people comparing J-10C to F-15EX? They are not the same class. J-10 series were designed as air superior fighter jet while F-15E or EX are multi-route and air to ground striking tasks. If Pak air force needs a bombing truck, why not order some J-16 from China, which can carry 12 tons of ammo instead?


People do that.
I compare myself to Tom cruise and then I realise...I am truly in a league of my own ...loooool

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## The Terminator

Materialistic said:


> I think it will be counter-productive for both parties to openly acknowledge the terms. But it is an open secret and not just in case of the US but yes, US is the one with the most restrictions on usage. As for our procurement terms with reference to India there are two different eras, two different levels of relationships and usage.
> 
> Our initial F16 procurement was a direct purchase at that time and use against India was the prime role. US had no issues in fact they used to openly support us in the name of maintaining balance of power in South Asia. However, the later acquisitions were part of Coalition support against WoT (usage: anti-terrorism) and by this time our relations had deteriorated significantly and US had tilted towards India. India raised concerns and this time US's didn't refer to the balance of power instead these new birds/upgrades came for WoT.
> Hence, the issue.
> 
> 
> 
> The article is interesting and it makes sense that retaliation is considered a defensive act which does give us some more space. Agree, once we have J10s in required numbers then PAF would be happy keeping F16s to defensive roles only.


But fighter jet inherently is not a defensive weapon. The only possible option to use it defensively is to attack enemy's military assets well within your airspace or within your own borders. The modern day range and lethality of weapons means that you are already screwed if you are "defending" your state by attacking enemy assets within your own boundaries. So it doesn't make any sense to acquire and maintain fighter bombers for solely defensive purposes. That's why 1st DG ISPR tried to fool people that we haven't used any F-16s in this operation, just fearing US backlash.

Same is the reason why we couldn't get modern gunship helicopters from the US as we would have to provide them guarantees to use them against TTP only in western theatre and wouldn't be used against India, while many others are flying and displaying Apaches in their museums acquired from the US.


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## The Terminator

I want J-10Cs carrying dummy nuclear armed ALCM flying past on 23rd of March with this sound playing in the background! Meanwhile keep fakhr-e-Alam silent for couple of moments too 😜






Heck we couldn't do it on the F-16s so what! We have a brand new bird to deliver the message of peace 🕊️

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## Chak Bamu

Marker said:


> Is there a thread dedicated for geopolitical discussion? I humbly suggest that we should stick to the topic of the thread instead of posting a long post on other subject.


Thanks. I was trying to put J-10CP purchase in context. This purchase will help keep IAF on back-foot for some years and there are geopolitical implications. I do agree that it is on the edge of permissibility as far as current discussion is concerned.

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## Zarvan

Areesh said:


> Why would you pray for that?


That will lead to J-10 C increase

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## Areesh

Zarvan said:


> That will lead to J-10 C increase



LoL

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## LeGenD

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> *On JF17 BLK 3 thread I cannot post or reply. My right to post has been taken away.*
> 
> Messiach made a comment about TOT on the russian engine---Deino replied out of ignorance---and lack of knowledge---" ask for link posters can only know so much ".
> 
> When Messiach answered about the engine---Deino did not have the ability to understand what she was saying---. In the end she had to explain---like a university professor explaining it to school children.
> 
> Moderators and Think Tank members on this forum need to have the ability to have basic fundamental knowledge to have enough knowledge of the system in question.
> 
> @Deino---I know that SQ8 out of hate for me has a soft spot for you---but your conversation with messiach has proved my point that you are not very knowledgeable about weapons and its machines.
> 
> She had made a clear comment and yet you could not understand it---and then you shamelessly begged her to explain it to you in layman's terms.
> 
> Don't you feel embarrassed that you do not even have that fundamental knowledge about the system in question.
> 
> But then it is wweapons world---is it truth or is it deception---
> 
> There are certain other items on the J10C's and JF13 blk 3's and their TOT---the information of which will take a long time to come out and will surprise many into saying ---" eh what"????
> 
> Guys wait and see.


Rupprecht Deino is globally respected for his knowledge and works. Just saying.

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## Wesen Hunter

Riz said:


> View attachment 821964


Fan made pics.
Neither Dassault nor Chinese company have released any specs of either radar


----------



## LeGenD

Riz said:


> View attachment 821964


It cannot be taken at face value.

Have a look:









Pakistan's acquisition of Chinese J-10C fighter jets significant for both sides: analysts


He just base on his conclusion for J-10c based on perception. Nothing to do with facts. Rafales AESA t/r modules less than J-10C. French electronic industries and research lacking behind China. But electronic warfare industries of France are well ahead of China



defence.pk

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## Trango Towers

What are the chances of conformal fuel tanks on jf17 and j10CP?


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## M.AsfandYar

Chak Bamu said:


> Perhaps because India would likely not go for any other asset & Rafales would not be available quite as soon as India might hope. This would allow PAF to induct J-10 in growing numbers, thus maintaining parity (or an edge even). This course of action would commit IAF to a multi-year program from which it can not eke out a significant advantage. The next round would likely be stealth in, say, 7-9 years; & PAF would have already devised a solid plan about that.


I believe they are in talks for local line. If their media si to be believed, imo that is a distinct possibility. so we should not pray that.



Trango Towers said:


> What are the chances of conformal fuel tanks on jf17 and j10CP?


on 17 None

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## Aesterix

Trango Towers said:


> Why ?? Its pay per view only loool


OnlyFans 😆

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## mingle

Salza said:


> Is 11th March date confirmed for an official event ? I didn't noticed this date anywhere in the media. Anyways about time.


Yeh 11th is it last time checked


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## SQ8

LeGenD said:


> Rupprecht Deino is globally respected for his knowledge and works. Just saying.


More importantly, he will be remembered and cited long after in academic publications unlike truck salesmen.



Chak Bamu said:


> Thanks. I was trying to put J-10CP purchase in context. This purchase will help keep IAF on back-foot for some years and there are geopolitical implications. I do agree that it is on the edge of permissibility as far as current discussion is concerned.


Lest anyone forget that the J-10 procurement has been “ongoing” in some form or another since 2006.

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## Engima Chaudhry

Salza said:


> Is 11th March date confirmed for an official event ? I didn't noticed this date anywhere in the media. Anyways about time.


Yes. Today, I witnessed an invitation from air chief to my boss for the official ceremony.

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## Goku-kun

NA71 said:


> political situation is too bad now .... People in Islamabad reporting extremely tense political atmosphere ...Just read what Lt Gen (r) Haroon tweeted today...an eye opener.....


if anyone has watched it then at 32;10-20 its been said there that bvr weapon is indigenous..can someone confirm it..


----------



## Dreamer.

Goku-kun said:


> if anyone has watched it then at 32;10-20 its been said there that bvr weapon is indigenous..can someone confirm it..


Yes I can.

I confirm that that's what they are saying round about the time stamp you mentioned. 

Seriously though, although the pilot is saying 'indigenous', he may just be referring to some sort of license production.


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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501263978374254604
Now what is this guy talking about. By the way I think after 11th J-10 C will join the rehearsals of Parade.

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## ahtan_china

details of J-10 & J-20

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## Aesterix

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501263978374254604
> Now what is this guy talking about. By the way I think after 11th J-10 C will join the rehearsals of Parade.


I told this guy to keep it a secret, but he didnt . I have no other option but to confess that i gave my design of mango powered Rocket engine to the Pakistan air force, which they will use in a 16 MIRV ICBM. The one problem is that it only works on " Chaunsaa" . Now you know.

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## Riz

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501263978374254604
> Now what is this guy talking about. By the way I think after 11th J-10 C will join the rehearsals of Parade.


Result of frequently searching “what new weapon system pak bought secretly “ over internet

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## MastanKhan

LeGenD said:


> Rupprecht Deino is globally respected for his knowledge and works. Just saying.



Hi,

Show me one prediction that he has made about weapons systems for a nation that they have procured---show me one assessment and analysis that he has written about any issue on the world defense and weapons---.

Show me one tactical analysis that he has made of any wars or any warlike situation---.

If he has written about terrorism---or yemen war---or india pakistan conflict---or US incursion in afg or in iraq---or in Libya or in Syria---.

Name just one place he has written a critical analysis of a situation under duress---.



JohnWick said:


> F-15 EX which is currently on order can carry 22 AIM-120 AMRAAMS
> What does it shows
> Pardon me butt, 4 F-15 EX can carry more bvr missiles then a whole squadron of J-10 !



Hi,

If you did not know---the F15 would be acting like the missile truck for the F35's that have gone deep into enemy territory.


And the F15 with all that load would not want to face the J10 C's with the PL15's one on one.

Its maneuverability would be extremely hindered by those 22 missiles---and it may prove a hinderance to carry so many of them.

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## IceCold

applesauce said:


> Pakistani government is that stupid


So you mean they are stupid but not that stupid?


----------



## LeGenD

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Show me one prediction that he has made about weapons systems for a nation that they have procured---show me one assessment and analysis that he has written about any issue on the world defense and weapons---.
> 
> Show me one tactical analysis that he has made of any wars or any warlike situation---.
> 
> If he has written about terrorism---or yemen war---or india pakistan conflict---or US incursion in afg or in iraq---or in Libya or in Syria---.
> 
> Name just one place he has written a critical analysis of a situation under duress---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> If you did not know---the F15 would be acting like the missile truck for the F35's that have gone deep into enemy territory.
> 
> 
> And the F15 with all that load would not want to face the J10 C's with the PL15's one on one.
> 
> Its maneuverability would be extremely hindered by those 22 missiles---and it may prove a hinderance to carry so many of them.



Sir,

Do you even know this person? I recall a conversation on PDF in which he pointed out that PAF can get J-10C but not J-16 - he is correct on this count.

His grasp of Chinese hardware is commendable and he is humble on top. He does not speculate much and does not make tall claims. These are the qualities that I appreciate in a person because of my profession.









First Images Of Pakistan's New Chinese J-10 Fighters Surface On Social Media







swarajyamag.com













Everything you always wanted to know about Chinese air power (but were afraid to ask) – Interview with Andreas Rupprecht


Few have written more on the subject of Chinese air power than Andreas Rupprecht. We grilled him on the hottest topics in that most dynamic of subjects, Chinese warplanes. China appears to be produ…




hushkit.net













New Stealth Fighters, Aircraft Carriers And UCAVs: Dissecting The Real State Of China's Naval Aviation


We interviewed Chinese military aviation expert Andreas Rupprecht to learn more about the progress of the PLAN (People's Liberation Army Navy) Naval




theaviationist.com













China Has Big Plans for Its Deadly New Stealth Fighter


But is the J-20 a threat to American air superiority?




foreignpolicy.com







https://static.rusi.org/russian_and_chinese_combat_air_trends_whr_final_web_version.pdf








Modern Chinese Warplanes: Chinese Air Force - Combat Aircraft and Units: Rupprecht, Andreas: 9780997309263: Amazon.com: Books


Modern Chinese Warplanes: Chinese Air Force - Combat Aircraft and Units [Rupprecht, Andreas] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Modern Chinese Warplanes: Chinese Air Force - Combat Aircraft and Units



www.amazon.com





As I pointed out to you - he is globally respected for his works and knowledge. Not many have similar claim to fame in the matters of aviation.

- - - -

F-15EX is a much bigger and capable jet fighter than J-10C.

F-15EX length = 19.5 m
F-15EX Wingspan = 13.1 m
F-15EX MTOW = 37000 KG
Engine = F110-GE-129 x 2

J-10C length = 16.9 m
J-10C Wingspan = 9.7 m
J-10C MTOW = 19277 KG
Engine = WS-10B

There are shaping differences to account for as well. F-15EX is literally designed to retain impressive maneuverability with a much higher payload than any MWF due to having a much bigger frame, structural strength, low wing loading and a high thrust-to-weight ratio.

Now shall I expand on the sensor systems of F-15EX to give you further perspective?

Not sure what you were thinking while typing this response.

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## MastanKhan

LeGenD said:


> Sir,
> 
> Do you even know this person? I recall a conversation on PDF in which he pointed out that PAF can get J-10C but not J-16 - he is correct on this count.
> 
> His grasp of Chinese hardware is commendable and he is humble on top. He does not speculate much and does not make tall claims. These are the qualities that I appreciate in a person because of my profession.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First Images Of Pakistan's New Chinese J-10 Fighters Surface On Social Media
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> swarajyamag.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everything you always wanted to know about Chinese air power (but were afraid to ask) – Interview with Andreas Rupprecht
> 
> 
> Few have written more on the subject of Chinese air power than Andreas Rupprecht. We grilled him on the hottest topics in that most dynamic of subjects, Chinese warplanes. China appears to be produ…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hushkit.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Stealth Fighters, Aircraft Carriers And UCAVs: Dissecting The Real State Of China's Naval Aviation
> 
> 
> We interviewed Chinese military aviation expert Andreas Rupprecht to learn more about the progress of the PLAN (People's Liberation Army Navy) Naval
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theaviationist.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China Has Big Plans for Its Deadly New Stealth Fighter
> 
> 
> But is the J-20 a threat to American air superiority?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> foreignpolicy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://static.rusi.org/russian_and_chinese_combat_air_trends_whr_final_web_version.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modern Chinese Warplanes: Chinese Air Force - Combat Aircraft and Units: Rupprecht, Andreas: 9780997309263: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> 
> Modern Chinese Warplanes: Chinese Air Force - Combat Aircraft and Units [Rupprecht, Andreas] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Modern Chinese Warplanes: Chinese Air Force - Combat Aircraft and Units
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I pointed out to you - he is globally respected for his works and knowledge. Not many have similar claim to fame in the matters of aviation.
> 
> - - - -
> 
> F-15EX is a much bigger and capable jet fighter than J-10C.
> 
> F-15EX length = 19.5 m
> F-15EX Wingspan = 13.1 m
> F-15EX MTOW = 37000 KG
> Engine = F110-GE-129 x 2
> 
> J-10C length = 16.9 m
> J-10C Wingspan = 9.7 m
> J-10C MTOW = 19277 KG
> Engine = WS-10B
> 
> F-15EX is literally designed to carry a much higher payload than any MWF without maneuverability loss due to having a much bigger frame, structural strength, low wing loading and a high thrust-to-weight ratio.
> 
> Now shall I expand on the sensor systems of F-15EX to give you further perspective?
> 
> Not sure what you were thinking while typing this response.



Hi,
And you call those posts worth anything at all. Those are posts which are made by gathering information and putting it together in one place---and there is nothing ORIGINAL of his own in---no input. And if that is what you are impressed of---that is a sad story---.


There was life before he got on PDF---in his old form---he condemned pakistan---called it a beggar nation---stated that pakistan will never get anything from china---pakistan has nothing to offer---.

As for the F15---*with 22 missiles loaded as that poster stated*---it is vulnerable to any other 4.5 gen aircraft with an equally capable BVR missile.

You kids just love to post numbers---thinking like they are everything.


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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is an absolutely despicable and cheap comment from you.
> 
> But then that is expected of you. Fruit does not fall too far from the tree---.
> 
> You can make this comment hiding behind the screen---but even at my age of 65---you would not dare to say it to my face if it ever came to that.
> 
> Shame on you.


Please stop defrauding people with your false facade of bravado and utter lack of knowledge. Messaging old buddies on whatsapp to get info and then copy pasting it here doesn’t give you credentials.

So shame on you for being an uncouth individual who after using demeaning terms against anyone who questions his hollow self aggrandizing tirades has a last line of supposed moral defense is to go “say it to my face” and throwing your age as some token you hypocrite. 

Fruit falls from the tree BS, you aren’t worth even responding to

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## Tariq Habib Afridi

SQ8 said:


> Please stop defrauding people with your false facade of bravado and utter lack of knowledge. Messaging old buddies on whatsapp to get info and then copy pasting it here doesn’t give you credentials.
> 
> So shame on you for being an uncouth individual who after using demeaning terms against anyone who questions his hollow self aggrandizing tirades has a last line of supposed moral defense is to go “say it to my face” and throwing your age as some token you hypocrite.
> 
> Fruit falls from the tree BS, you aren’t worth even responding to


I will suggest you can answer without losing your cool. Atleast respect his age. i may also not agree with him on many things but i will never reply to him in such words. difference of opinions occurs every where even between brothers but one can reply or also chose not to reply but with manners. Thanks

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Show me one prediction that he has made about weapons systems for a nation that they have procured---show me one assessment and analysis that he has written about any issue on the world defense and weapons---.
> 
> Show me one tactical analysis that he has made of any wars or any warlike situation---.
> 
> If he has written about terrorism---or yemen war---or india pakistan conflict---or US incursion in afg or in iraq---or in Libya or in Syria---.
> 
> Name just one place he has written a critical analysis of a situation under duress---.


Oh my god, the old barking dog has lost his bone!!  ... calm down my friend!

I know the bite reflex prevents you from thinking clearly, but has it ever occurred to you that there might be other specialties that can be respected? 

You sound like you're criticizing a competitor in the 100m finals at the Olympic Games for not being a professional balance beam gymnast!?  

I've never claimed to be an expert on "whatever you listed above", so it's just plain unfair - or rather typical of your arrogance - to assume so and criticize it. My specialty is types, structures, and the orbat of the PLA, and at least on this it seems to be quite well received.







Modern Chinese Warplanes: Chinese Naval Aviation – Aircraft and Units | Center for International Maritime Security







cimsec.org









__ https://www.facebook.com/caffeinatedanalyst/posts/2224407534545833







https://www.harpia-publishing.com/sites/default/files/reviews/2108TAEBC12Aug2019.pdf




But by the way, maybe you'll give us sources for your glorious releases on "whatever you listed above", so maybe we can at least try to learn?!

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## SQ8

Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> I will suggest you can answer without losing your cool. Atleast respect his age. i may also not agree with him on many things but i will never reply to him in such words. difference of opinions occurs every where even between brothers but one can reply or also chose not to reply but with manners. Thanks


He needs to be replied in his own language. Make no mistake, he used to be a decent respectful and knowledgeable member but has completely lost it since the last ten years looking for just his own praise and glory. Not one senior member from well before me he hasn’t insulted with demeaning terms while ranting and raving on him being anaouzubillah some prophet of god sent to educate us all. 

Age is one thing, but that doesn’t give you a free pass to behave like an arsehole to everyone.

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> ...
> There was life before he got on PDF---in his old form---he condemned pakistan---called it a beggar nation---stated that pakistan will never get anything from china---pakistan has nothing to offer---.
> ...




Liar! Plain and simply you are a liar and an admitted one. So finally stop insulting other and then if you get a decent reply call them not to respect you for your age, that's shameful.

So much on your credentials.

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## Tariq Habib Afridi

SQ8 said:


> He needs to be replied in his own language. Make no mistake, he used to be a decent respectful and knowledgeable member but has completely lost it since the last ten years looking for just his own praise and glory. Not one senior member from well before me he hasn’t insulted with demeaning terms while ranting and raving on him being anaouzubillah some prophet of god sent to educate us all.
> 
> Age is one thing, but that doesn’t give you a free pass to behave like an arsehole to everyone.


I agree with your comments and in my opinion instead of replying you can ignore his bashing respecting his age. I have seen many people when they get older their behavior becomes un predictable so maybe the age issue.

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## SQ8

Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> I agree with your comments and in my opinion instead of replying you can ignore his bashing respecting his age. I have seen many people when they get older their behavior becomes un predictable so maybe the age issue.


That’s been the policy I have been following

Either way, lets focus on the J-10C and avoid further derailment with useless online squabbling - ruins the purpose of this place.

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## GriffinsRule

Goku-kun said:


> if anyone has watched it then at 32;10-20 its been said there that bvr weapon is indigenous..can someone confirm it..


The mod deleted my post when I commented on that but its basically falsehood the pilot should not have said. Seems like a disease of calling everything JF-17 related indigenous.

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## SQ8

GriffinsRule said:


> The mod deleted my post when I commented on that but its basically falsehood the pilot should not have said. Seems like a disease of calling everything JF-17 related indigenous.


Probably was a slip of the tongue based on using indigenous frequently when talking of JF-17 or maybe was disingenuous of him saying indigenous.

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## Tariq Habib Afridi

SQ8 said:


> That’s been the policy I have been following
> 
> Either way, lets focus on the J-10C and avoid further derailment with useless online squabbling - ruins the purpose of this place.


Well focusing on J-10C i have one question from you and all other senior members. Is J-10C brings some new armaments that we dont have previously skipping PL-10 and PL-15... i mean for ground attack and anti ship especially?

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## SQ8

Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> Well focusing on J-10C i have one question from you and all other senior members. Is J-10C brings some new armaments that we dont have previously skipping PL-10 and PL-15... i mean for ground attack and anti ship especially?


Nothing the JF-17 may already not be capable of using but it may not be able to employ Pakistani weaponry (Raad, Takbir, ReK) from the get go unless its been resolved already. What do you think @Deino ?

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## LeGenD

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There was life before he got on PDF---in his old form---he condemned pakistan---called it a beggar nation---stated that pakistan will never get anything from china---pakistan has nothing to offer---.
> 
> As for the F15---*with 22 missiles loaded as that poster stated*---it is vulnerable to any other 4.5 gen aircraft with an equally capable BVR missile.
> 
> You kids just love to post numbers---thinking like they are everything.



He might have his share of bad judgements but who is perfect in life? WE are all humans, good Sir.

You are repeating the same assertion without realizing that F-15EX and J-10C are not even in the same weight-class. That F-15EX is literally designed to retain impressive maneuverability with a much higher payload than any MWF due to having a much bigger frame, structural strength, low wing loading and a high thrust-to-weight ratio. None of this matters in your calculus, right? Do you think that J-10C will retain impressive maneuverability when fully loaded? F-15EX is also equipped with some of the largest and most powerful sensor systems produced for a jet fighter. It is equipped with a much bigger and powerful radar system (4th generation AESA), and its EW capabilities are cutting-edge and full-spectrum as well. Everything counts in a fight.

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## Tariq Habib Afridi

SQ8 said:


> Nothing the JF-17 may already not be capable of using but it may not be able to employ Pakistani weaponry (Raad, Takbir, ReK) from the get go unless its been resolved already. What do you think @Deino ?


Now i am disappointed.. china must have better missiles than RAAD, takbir and REK ?? if they have why cant they be not employed on J-10C?


----------



## SQ8

Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> Now i am disappointed.. china must have better missiles than RAAD, takbir and REK ?? if they have why cant they be not employed on J-10C?


I wouldn’t be disappointed - the focus of the J-10C will dictate the type of weapons that go into the integration and testing cycle first. When the J-10A was first evaluated the PAF liked it for its payload and was considering it as a strike aircraft before air superiority .. when the J-10B was looked at it was about air superiority but the PAF kept waiting on both funds and improvements. Now the focus is on Air superiority and SEAD operations. The J-10C wasn’t bought to counter the Rafale, the PL-15 and other systems ensure the Rafale is kept at bay - it was bought to fulfill an air staff requirement for particular mission profiles.

So, to round off and answer your question - if it turns out that the mission profile for the J-10 requires a weapon not used before it will be integrated. My guess is that a ARM is being considered beyond the LD-10 and MAR-1 that will target both the Spyder and any future MRSAM and LRSAM systems.

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## White privilege

SQ8 said:


> Nothing the JF-17 may already not be capable of using but it may not be able to employ Pakistani weaponry (Raad, Takbir, ReK) from the get go unless its been resolved already. What do you think @Deino ?


Well the radars and mission computer in both birds are Chinese so like the JF-17, integration should be easy.


----------



## TopGun786

Deino said:


> Oh my god, the old barking dog has lost his bone!!  ... calm down my friend!
> 
> I know the bite reflex prevents you from thinking clearly, but has it ever occurred to you that there might be other specialties that can be respected?
> 
> You sound like you're criticizing a competitor in the 100m finals at the Olympic Games for not being a professional balance beam gymnast!?
> 
> I've never claimed to be an expert on "whatever you listed above", so it's just plain unfair - or rather typical of your arrogance - to assume so and criticize it. My specialty is types, structures, and the orbat of the PLA, and at least on this it seems to be quite well received.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modern Chinese Warplanes: Chinese Naval Aviation – Aircraft and Units | Center for International Maritime Security
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cimsec.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/caffeinatedanalyst/posts/2224407534545833
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.harpia-publishing.com/sites/default/files/reviews/2108TAEBC12Aug2019.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But by the way, maybe you'll give us sources for your glorious releases on "whatever you listed above", so maybe we can at least try to learn?!


Long I suspected you are the man behind ''Modern Chinese Warplanes'' on Facebook and I am a huge fan of yours. Maybe other members already know that but I joined PDF in 2019 and was only active since the end of 2021 so I did not know. I respect your way of unveiling things to a minimum and not going after any hype,... keeping the information as straightforward and true as possible. Do not listen to the negative comments and just keep your good work going. Regards

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## Tariq Habib Afridi

SQ8 said:


> I wouldn’t be disappointed - the focus of the J-10C will dictate the type of weapons that go into the integration and testing cycle first. When the J-10A was first evaluated the PAF liked it for its payload and was considering it as a strike aircraft before air superiority .. when the J-10B was looked at it was about air superiority but the PAF kept waiting on both funds and improvements. Now the focus is on Air superiority and SEAD operations. The J-10C wasn’t bought to counter the Rafale, the PL-15 and other systems ensure the Rafale is kept at bay - it was bought to fulfill an air staff requirement for particular mission profiles.
> 
> So, to round off and answer your question - if it turns out that the mission profile for the J-10 requires a weapon not used before it will be integrated. My guess is that a ARM is being considered beyond the LD-10 and MAR-1 that will target both the Spyder and any future MRSAM and LRSAM systems.


Thank you for your reply.


----------



## AlyxMS

Oh my my my my. Last time I was here(2017 I think), MastanKhan was a pretty normal and respected poster. Other than his habit to start every reply with "Hi" and his obsession with JH-7A of course. What has happened in the last 5 years?



MastanKhan said:


> There was life before he got on PDF---in his old form---he condemned pakistan---called it a beggar nation---stated that pakistan will never get anything from china---pakistan has nothing to offer---.


If I remember correctly, that was started by an insane statement from some poster I can't remember, saying "Pakistan can get anything from China at any time for free". And by anything he meant anything. J-20, Type 055, Flankers... all included.

While he might've said Pakistan did not have anything to offer *in exchange for that kind of assistance*, I am certain Deino did not call Pakistan that.
I think anyone who have interacted with him before can attest Deino do not use that kind of language.

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## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Show me one prediction that he has made about weapons systems for a nation that they have procured---show me one assessment and analysis that he has written about any issue on the world defense and weapons---.
> 
> Show me one tactical analysis that he has made of any wars or any warlike situation---.
> 
> If he has written about terrorism---or yemen war---or india pakistan conflict---or US incursion in afg or in iraq---or in Libya or in Syria---.
> 
> Name just one place he has written a critical analysis of a situation under duress---.


Did he ever claim to be something that he is not? A high-flying strategist or a well-healed journalist? Why should you get to decide his worth?

If Deino's work is well received, then that means that he is indeed doing something that is appreciated or else he would not be published. So clearly there are lot of people who would disagree with you. And not to mention that Deino does not do this as a career. You could do it too, even if you are a bit old.

I wish you would drop this MK. It is not good for you.

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## NA71

Chak Bamu said:


> Did he ever claim to be something that he is not? A high-flying strategist or a well-healed journalist? Why should you get to decide his worth?




All PDF members are equally respectable. We should now move on from here.....

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## White privilege

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501491810820149260
C'mon where are those prying cameras??

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## TopGun786

White privilege said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501491810820149260
> C'mon where are those prying cameras??


When? Any pictures?


----------



## Riz

AlyxMS said:


> Oh my my my my. Last time I was here(2017 I think), MastanKhan was a pretty normal and respected poster. Other than his habit to start every reply with "Hi" and his obsession with JH-7A of course. What has happened in the last 5 years?
> 
> 
> If I remember correctly, that was started by an insane statement from some poster I can't remember, saying "Pakistan can get anything from China at any time for free". And by anything he meant anything. J-20, Type 055, Flankers... all included.
> 
> While he might've said Pakistan did not have anything to offer *in exchange for that kind of assistance*, I am certain Deino did not call Pakistan that.
> I think anyone who have interacted with him before can attest Deino do not use that kind of language.


To be honest, He was not alone , many senior members in the past claimed that pak doesn’t need J-10c for indian Rafale threat , nothing new in it and there is no difference between Jf-17blk3 and J-10c , many of them claimed we dont have money , many claimed china will not sell its most modern jet to pak , some of them even laughed when any new member asks if we get J-20 in near future? Now every day everything is revealing, J-10c already reached in Pakistan, Thunder got Pl-15 , Ws-10 is matured and part of PAF, rumors of PAF J-20 is already , inshallah we will get everything from china with money and without money (soft loan) , Im not @Deino hater but still fail to find a single reason that why would china not sell its most modern weapons and jets to its allies when US , and Europeans already selling and earning billions and influence too ?

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## AlyxMS

Riz said:


> To be honest, He was not alone , many senior members in the past claimed that pak doesn’t need J-10c for indian Rafale threat , nothing new in it and there is no difference between Jf-17blk3 and J-10c , many of them claimed we dont have money , many claimed china will not sell its most modern jet to pak , some of them even laughed when any new member asks if we get J-20 in near future? Now every day everything is revealing, J-10c already reached in Pakistan, Thunder got Pl-15 , Ws-10 is matured and part of PAF, rumors of PAF J-20 is already , inshallah we will get everything from china with money and without money (soft loan) , Im not @Deino hater but still fail to find a single reason that why would china not sell its most modern weapons and jets to its allies when US , and Europeans already selling and earning billions and influence too ?


Heh, to be honest I'm one of those who think J-10C isn't truly nessesary for PAF. I didn't claim anything, since I wasn't active here at the time. My thought was, is having an aircraft with the capabilty of, at most, one and a half JF-17BLK3, worth all the trouble of inducting something entirely new? I still think the J-10C purchase was either very forward looking(In my opinion the JF-17 platform is near its limits, and PAF may benefit from further developments of J-10 by PLA) or political in nature. Anyway, not here to debate this.

In my opinion there are two main reasons people don't think China sells their top of the line stuff:

1, The technology is sensitive. US don't sell their F-22, B-1B or B-2. They only sell F-35 to a handful of allies they trust. Whenever a F-35 is at risk of falling into untrusted hands(I.E. that crash in South China Sea from a few weeks ago), they get extremely nervous. I don't see China being much different. The examples you've listed(European stuff, I presume Rafale, EF2000, Gripen) are all 4th gen. Of course it's less sensitive, it's older tech. China in the past have done the same, they sold their best fighter at the time - the J-7. But J-7 is nowhere near the cutting edge even then.

2, Chinese aircraft manufacturers are all state owned. Their priority is to satisfy the demand of the PLA, not chasing profit. The PLA generates such a huge amount of demand that they never had to worry about finding buyers. Even if the manufacturers want to sell them abroad, they still have to go through all the red tape from the central government. When it comes to security, China is very insecure (heh). You can tell by them barely releasing any training footage or blurring cockpit footage of 15 year old aircrafts for fear of leaking sensitive information. So marketing and selling to non-Chinese customers was never of much interest to Chinese aircraft manufacturers.

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## Deino

NA71 said:


> All PDF members are equally respectable. We should now move on from here.....




Pardon, that‘’s something I must strongly contradict! Respect is something you must earn in a forum - exactly like in society - either by high quality posts, reliable, credible and honest replies or via the way you react.

As such any new member must be rated equally respectable but I think it safe to say that after some time of membership it becomes pretty clear to most, that there are „such and such members“ as we say in Germany: Such members who are constantly contributing in a civilised manner, who provide valuable and correct information, teach and lesson with humble respect. The then there are such who are arrogant, childish, fan-boyish or whatever, who insult, offend, twist words and lie in order to whatever their reason may be, be that simply stupidity, arrogance, the will to mislead and even pre trolling.

As such there is surely a certain difference between more and less respectable members.

However, who puts one into which „group“ is again another question and largely depends on again other factors.

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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> As such any new member must be rated equally respectable



The poster must have meant to say respectable by way of manners, civility and being addressed. Knowledge based respect among the group is different than what he meant. I guess so.

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## NA71

Deino said:


> Pardon, that‘’s something I must strongly contradict! Respect is something you must earn in a forum - exactly like in society - either by high quality posts, reliable, credible and honest replies or via the way you react.
> 
> As such any new member must be rated equally respectable but I think it safe to say that after some time of membership it becomes pretty clear to most, that there are „such and such members“ as we say in Germany: Such members who are constantly contributing in a civilised manner, who provide valuable and correct information, teach and lesson with humble respect. The then there are such who are arrogant, childish, fan-boyish or whatever, who insult, offend, twist words and lie in order to whatever their reason may be, be that simply stupidity, arrogance, the will to mislead and even pre trolling.
> 
> As such there is surely a certain difference between more and less respectable members.
> 
> However, who puts one into which „group“ is again another question and largely depends on again other factors.



Yet another valuable analysis. _To whom it may concern_ 

Thank you @Deino

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## araz

Riz said:


> To be honest, He was not alone , many senior members in the past claimed that pak doesn’t need J-10c for indian Rafale threat , nothing new in it and there is no difference between Jf-17blk3 and J-10c , many of them claimed we dont have money , many claimed china will not sell its most modern jet to pak , some of them even laughed when any new member asks if we get J-20 in near future? Now every day everything is revealing, J-10c already reached in Pakistan, Thunder got Pl-15 , Ws-10 is matured and part of PAF, rumors of PAF J-20 is already , inshallah we will get everything from china with money and without money (soft loan) , Im not @Deino hater but still fail to find a single reason that why would china not sell its most modern weapons and jets to its allies when US , and Europeans already selling and earning billions and influence too ?


To be honest, I am one of those people. I have argued that PAF does not need J10 as it already has a working AESA, PL15 mounted possibly on Dual racks, and a host of other armaments none of whom would otherwise have been possible. However, I conceded that the rapidity with which J10 could replace the obsolete fighters could not be achieved by JFT alone. Secondly Induction of J10 now provides us another Hi platform in the hi-lo pattern in which PAF prepares for battle. Lastly, J10 has given PAF some guarantees against sanction of its premier platform F16, as well as the ease with which one could get spares and attrition replacement. We are all happy to have J10 in PAF colours. So the argument was actually not against the J10 per se, but the reasons for its induction.
A

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## Princeps Senatus

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501263978374254604
> Now what is this guy talking about. By the way I think after 11th J-10 C will join the rehearsals of Parade.


Indigenous AESA radar

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## python-000

Princeps Senatus said:


> Indigenous AESA radar


No, i think its JF-35...

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## alee92nawaz

TopGun786 said:


> When? Any pictures?


Saw them in a random TikTok video


----------



## Readerdefence

araz said:


> To be honest, I am one of those people. I have argued that PAF does not need J10 as t already has a working AESA, PL15 mounted possibly on Dual racks, and a host of other armaments none of whom would otherwise not have been possible. However, I conceded that the rapidity with which J10 could replace the obsolete fighters could not be achieved by JFT alone. Secondly Induction of J10 now provides us another Hi platform in the hi-lo pattern in which PAF prepares for battle. Lastly, J10 has given PAF some guarantees against sanction of its premier platform F16, as well as the ease with which one could get spares and attrition replacement. We are all happy to have J10 in PAF colours. So the argument was actually not against the J10 per se, but the reasons for its induction.
> A


Hi araz just to be little precise is it’s a possibility JF17 is not been offered with PL15 😒
and that’s one the reason PAF got J10c 
if possible to answer 
thank you


----------



## araz

Readerdefence said:


> Hi araz just to be little precise is it’s a possibility JF17 is not been offered with PL15 😒
> and that’s one the reason PAF got J10c
> if possible to answer
> thank you


There was news and confirmation from Ex PAF member that post 27/02. 100 PL15s had been transferred to PAF from Chinese stock on urgent basis. If that news was true then your assumption is incorrect. If untrue then I would much rather that they developed the necessary capability for PL15 to be carried on JFT. You dont buy a plane to house a single category of missile.
A

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## syed_yusuf

There is no doubt that JF17 blk3 comes with pl15 fully enabled, lock and loaded. Old blocks could also launch pl15 but with radar constraint.

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## SQ8

araz said:


> There was news and confirmation from Ex PAF member that post 27/02. 100 PL15s had been transferred to PAF from Chinese stock on urgent basis. If that news was true then your assumption is incorrect. If untrue then I would much rather that they developed the necessary capability for PL15 to be carried on JFT. You dont buy a plane to house a single category of missile.
> A


it is true and these were PL-15s, not PL-15E which the neighbors have been hoping was what was delivered to Pakistan. As more informed members have pointed out earlier, Pakistan will continue to outstick its neighbor in BVR for the foreseeable future.



Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501263978374254604
> Now what is this guy talking about. By the way I think after 11th J-10 C will join the rehearsals of Parade.


He is having a PG-13 conversation for sure. But yes, there is a lot of things happening which you don’t need to be an insider to figure out.

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## JohnWick

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> And you call those posts worth anything at all. Those are posts which are made by gathering information and putting it together in one place---and there is nothing ORIGINAL of his own in---no input. And if that is what you are impressed of---that is a sad story---.
> 
> 
> There was life before he got on PDF---in his old form---he condemned pakistan---called it a beggar nation---stated that pakistan will never get anything from china---pakistan has nothing to offer---.
> 
> As for the F15---*with 22 missiles loaded as that poster stated*---it is vulnerable to any other 4.5 gen aircraft with an equally capable BVR missile.
> 
> You kids just love to post numbers---thinking like they are everything.


I was only saying that PAF should focus on the jets which should be capable of carrying more missiles
No offense but what lets say 4 J-10 in a cap mission do when group of fighter jet approaching them from different sector Cz they dont have enough weapon to engage them all ?
One credible answer is our HQ-9 and other SAMs will handle them !
But what if we want to go deep into enemy territory ? Lets say we want to hit IAF central command, We need these Truck of missiles to fight against A swarm of Russian fighter jets.
PAF should go for a that kind of jet
Should I elaborate more ?
@LeGenD @SQ8
Hope you understand what I want to say


----------



## Air Wolf

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501662773931134979

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## Sayfullah

Zarvan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501263978374254604
> Now what is this guy talking about. By the way I think after 11th J-10 C will join the rehearsals of Parade.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501515921655046145

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501516322794094594

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501516684468830208

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501517095636508674

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501517942760030213

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## Big_bud

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501515921655046145
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501516322794094594
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501516684468830208
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501517095636508674
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501517942760030213




WOW!!!! Thats a stunning news! Indigenous AESA radar at par with latest western equipment! That too employing the superior GaN technology instead of GaA! If I remember correctly rafale still uses GaA right? Wow.. that's big news and kindles new hope for our R&D & industrial capabilities! It means Alhamdolillah project AZM is going right on track! Hopefully more fruits to come soon!

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## Sayfullah

Big_bud said:


> WOW!!!! Thats a stunning news! Indigenous AESA radar at par with latest western equipment! Wow.. that's big news and kindles new hope for our R&D & industrial capabilities! It means Alhamdolillah project AZM is going right on track! Hopefully more fruits to come soon!


In Sha Allah Project Azm’s NGFA will become a reality

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## SQ8

Big_bud said:


> WOW!!!! Thats a stunning news! Indigenous AESA radar at par with latest western equipment! That too employing the superior GaN technology instead of GaA! If I remember correctly rafale still uses GaA right? Wow.. that's big news and kindles new hope for our R&D & industrial capabilities! It means Alhamdolillah project *AZM is going right on track! *Hopefully more fruits to come soon!


Yes and No.. but @JamD and @Bilal Khan (Quwa) have already outlined why in the relevant thread.

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## Big_bud

SQ8 said:


> Yes and No.. but @JamD and @Bilal Khan (Quwa) have already outlined why in the relevant thread.



I won't discount the possibility that purposeful misinformation is being spread. Having said that, even if there's no indigenous jet coming. Radar, Avionics, Computer modules, plus other component's production is equally important. I hope still R&D + Education, HR & Skill development part of it is still going on.

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## Iron Shrappenel

White privilege said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501491810820149260
> C'mon where are those prying cameras?


I think they flew between 9 and 11


----------



## SQ8

Big_bud said:


> I won't discount the possibility that purposeful misinformation is being spread. Having said that, even if there's no indigenous jet coming. Radar, Avionics, Computer modules, plus other component's production is equally important. I hope still R&D + Education, HR & Skill development part of it is still going on.


It is but like all things it takes time, dedicated hardwork and qualified intelligent leadership to develop. 
It is like a waterfall effect that will come through eventually.

The nuclear program or JF-17 has a great history but the story of Pakistan’s UAV ambitions also deserves a little piece of history.

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## Bleek

It probably had Turkish influence


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## Bossman

Bleek said:


> It probably had Turkish influence


What makes you say so?


----------



## MastanKhan

AlyxMS said:


> Heh, to be honest I'm one of those who think J-10C isn't truly nessesary for PAF. I didn't claim anything, since I wasn't active here at the time. My thought was, is having an aircraft with the capabilty of, at most, one and a half JF-17BLK3, worth all the trouble of inducting something entirely new? I still think the J-10C purchase was either very forward looking(In my opinion the JF-17 platform is near its limits, and PAF may benefit from further developments of J-10 by PLA) or political in nature. Anyway, not here to debate this.
> 
> In my opinion there are two main reasons people don't think China sells their top of the line stuff:
> 
> 1, The technology is sensitive. US don't sell their F-22, B-1B or B-2. They only sell F-35 to a handful of allies they trust. Whenever a F-35 is at risk of falling into untrusted hands(I.E. that crash in South China Sea from a few weeks ago), they get extremely nervous. I don't see China being much different. The examples you've listed(European stuff, I presume Rafale, EF2000, Gripen) are all 4th gen. Of course it's less sensitive, it's older tech. China in the past have done the same, they sold their best fighter at the time - the J-7. But J-7 is nowhere near the cutting edge even then.
> 
> 2, Chinese aircraft manufacturers are all state owned. Their priority is to satisfy the demand of the PLA, not chasing profit. The PLA generates such a huge amount of demand that they never had to worry about finding buyers. Even if the manufacturers want to sell them abroad, they still have to go through all the red tape from the central government. When it comes to security, China is very insecure (heh). You can tell by them barely releasing any training footage or blurring cockpit footage of 15 year old aircrafts for fear of leaking sensitive information. So marketing and selling to non-Chinese customers was never of much interest to Chinese aircraft manufacturers.



Hi,

Maybe your don't have understandung of new aircrafts---. The JF17 BLK3 needs to go thru integration. It would be atleast a minimum of 5 years that we will have capable pilots to fly this machine.

A good integration time period is between 8 to 10 years. The J10;s have already gone thru the weapons integration process. The new thing is the aesa radar and that is a different beast.

The senior pilots have to UN-LEARN their previous air to air combat techniques and learn to adjust to using aesa and COME TO TERMS THAT IT PRESENTS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT AIR COMBAT EXPERIENCE.

Paf pilots have been in flight training on the J10C for over 2 years now---but really no experience on the BLK 3 other than on computer screen.

It surprises me that you have commented with confidence but did not know the basics of inducting a new fighter aircraft or a new advanced fighter aircraft.



araz said:


> To be honest, I am one of those people. I have argued that PAF does not need J10 as it already has a working AESA, PL15 mounted possibly on Dual racks, and a host of other armaments none of whom would otherwise have been possible. However, I conceded that the rapidity with which J10 could replace the obsolete fighters could not be achieved by JFT alone. Secondly Induction of J10 now provides us another Hi platform in the hi-lo pattern in which PAF prepares for battle. Lastly, J10 has given PAF some guarantees against sanction of its premier platform F16, as well as the ease with which one could get spares and attrition replacement. We are all happy to have J10 in PAF colours. So the argument was actually not against the J10 per se, but the reasons for its induction.
> A



And still you have not apologized.

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## ahtan_china

The J-10CP is training for the military parade

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## Ghessan

The Eagle said:


> The poster must have meant to say respectable by way of manners, civility and being addressed. *Knowledge* based respect among the group is different than what he meant. I guess so.



yes "knowledge based" indeed the problem is here.

and not mere given facts and figures (_anyone can attain that info_) upon which we grow ourselves a repute generally. when someone's readers are common people (mostly) and that praise come from the likes all around. where is knowledge which if one cannot share because he or she don't have it? 

i just don't understand when will people grow up to understand these petty things. i mean really... do we need to make this forum a school? to me it is not, let it be what it is. it is not some published paper which has its own ethics to follow. 

people present themselves here and are very well judged who is a naive, a figures man, a book worm or knowledgeable.

problem starts when people could not differentiate between them.

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## Khan Sahab

I have a video of J-10s flying in formation over Islamabad (probably). I don't know how to share though.

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## Bleek

Khan Sahab said:


> I have a video of J-10s flying in formation over Islamabad (probably). I don't know how to share though.


Click attach files at the bottom left of the message box

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## Khan Sahab

Bleek said:


> Click attach files at the bottom left of the message box


Yeah, I tried it already. I doesn't allow video files to be uploaded. It is saying the uploaded file does not have an allowed extension.


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## Bleek

Khan Sahab said:


> Yeah, I tried it already. I doesn't allow video files to be uploaded. It is saying the uploaded file does not have an allowed extension.


You could upload it on YouTube with a private link

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## Vapnope

Khan Sahab said:


> Yeah, I tried it already. I doesn't allow video files to be uploaded. It is saying the uploaded file does not have an allowed extension.


Post it on your insta or fb and share the link here.


----------



## Salza

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501515921655046145
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501516322794094594
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501516684468830208
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501517095636508674
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501517942760030213


JFT Block 4 ?

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Big_bud said:


> WOW!!!! Thats a stunning news! Indigenous AESA radar at par with latest western equipment! That too employing the superior GaN technology instead of GaA! If I remember correctly rafale still uses GaA right? Wow.. that's big news and kindles new hope for our R&D & industrial capabilities! It means Alhamdolillah project AZM is going right on track! Hopefully more fruits to come soon!


So can we say( just to boast on online forums 😉) that Pakistan is the second country( first probably Turkey) in the whole Muslim World that can make its TRM modules for Radars in home or its too early?

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> …
> 
> And still you have not apologized.



And you? You are always only offending, insulting and demanding… did you ever apologize here in this forum?

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## Iron Shrappenel

Salza said:


> JFT Block 4 ?


Seems so... Seems like we've been *THUNDERSTRUCK 




*


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## Bleek

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> So can we say( just to boast on online forums 😉) that Pakistan is the second country( first probably Turkey) in the whole Muslim World that can make its TRM modules for Radars in home or its too early?


I'd say wait for something more official and concrete

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## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> And still you have not apologized.


Nobody needs to apologize for an honest opinion based on available information. Its not as though he is being incompetent on a sensitive position. This is just a forum. For a while I also thought that J-10's performance gap with JF-17 was not big enough to justify a buy decision. This too was based on opinion of retired PAF chief (I forget his name). So, you better demand an apology from him rather than a poster on this forum.

Nobody here makes sensitive decisions. So, chill buddy.

Besides, you are on his ignore list & I have told you this more than once already.

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## Ghessan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501854578882404355

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## Trailer23

Just a reminder, the Official Induction will be for both *J-10C* and *JF-17 Block III* together.

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## Trailer23

A beautiful model of a J-10C has replaced the JF-17 outside Kamra.
@Windjammer @Hodor

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## Bleek

Trailer23 said:


> A beautiful model of a J-10C has replaced the JF-17 outside Kamra.
> @Windjammer @Hodor


Should've kept JF-17 due to the Pakistani connection 

If you're going to put a foreign fighter, should've been the F-16, it's a beauty

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## TopGun786

Trailer23 said:


> A beautiful model of a J-10C has replaced the JF-17 outside Kamra.
> @Windjammer @Hodor


Any photo ?


----------



## Windjammer

Trailer23 said:


> A beautiful model of a J-10C has replaced the JF-17 outside Kamra.
> @Windjammer @Hodor


I guess it means if not the assembly/Manufacture then the overall and future upgrades of the type will be done by PAC.

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## Trailer23

Bleek said:


> If you're going to put a foreign fighter, should've been the F-16, it's a beauty


I agree with the F-16 being a beauty, however the Viper has no links with Kamra.

Besides, there are plenty of F-16 models outside various bases.

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## baqai

Trailer23 said:


> A beautiful model of a J-10C has replaced the JF-17 outside Kamra.
> @Windjammer @Hodor



does this indicates that we are doing some manufacturing of parts?


----------



## Trailer23

baqai said:


> does this indicates that we are doing some manufacturing of parts?


Hard to say, all I know is that the JF-17 model was replaced earlier today with the J-10 model.

'nuff said.

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## siegecrossbow

SQ8 said:


> it is true and these were PL-15s, not PL-15E which the neighbors have been hoping was what was delivered to Pakistan. As more informed members have pointed out earlier, Pakistan will continue to outstick its neighbor in BVR for the foreseeable future.
> 
> 
> He is having a PG-13 conversation for sure. But yes, there is a lot of things happening which you don’t need to be an insider to figure out.



Speaking of PL-15, I've actually uncovered a public research paper that could potentially shed light on performance speculations. Do keep in mind that the paper states that the figures are "simulated data" and don't refer to any specific AAM, but some of the stats are very interesting.







The table lists the maximum range of AAM depending on the duration of time that elapses between the two pulses of a dual-pulse rocket motor. Under the head-on condition, the maximum range occurs when there is a 30 second gap between firing. If the gap between firing is 0s, the head-on maximum range is -- SURPRISE -- 145KM. The number matches too closely with the official specs on PL-15E for me not to take notice. What do you call a dual-pulse rocket motor with no pause between firing? A plain old single-pulse rocket motor.

This pretty much confirmed my suspicion that PL-15E does not feature dual-pulse rocket motor. It also shows that if dual pulse is used in optimal intervals, the unnerfed PL-15 could hit 182KM range.

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## Trailer23

baqai said:


> does this indicates that we are doing some manufacturing of parts?


Furth more, bare in mind that No. 15 Squadron (Cobras) are going to be based at Kamra.

It may just be a symbol of the first to receive the J-10's. A model does not indicate ToT or manufacturing of parts.

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## aliyusuf

Chak Bamu said:


> For a while I also thought that J-10's performance gap with JF-17 was not big enough to justify a buy decision. This too was based on opinion of retired PAF chief (I forget his name).


Could the retired CAS have expressed his point of view before the introduction of the J-10C variant?


----------



## Chak Bamu

aliyusuf said:


> Could the retired CAS have expressed his point of view before the introduction of the J-10C variant?


I think so. This was a number of years ago. Someone else might be able to recall it better than I. But even with improvements of J-10C, the jet is basically the same - range, payload, aerodynamics; only the avionics & sensors are upgraded. Rafale's arrival in IAF, current state of the economy, and the rapid Chinese progress in aviation industry made the decision for us, I believe.

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## White privilege

Trailer23 said:


> A beautiful model of a J-10C has replaced the JF-17 outside Kamra.
> @Windjammer @Hodor


JF-17 can't really be _replaced _at Kamra.Even if no operational squadron is stationed there, Kamra would likely remain the manufacture and maintenance hub of Thunder.


----------



## Trailer23

White privilege said:


> JF-17 can't really be _replaced _at Kamra.Even if no operational squadron is stationed there, Kamra would likely remain the manufacture and maintenance hub of Thunder.


Well, I have the image with me. Now unless someone else posts it - i'm gonna hold on to it for a few weeks.

Besides, no one is replacing JF-17 at Kamra as its still the place where JF-17's are built/manufactured.

However, its just a model. Its doesn't truly hold any value other than represent the Squadron that will be operating the J-10's.

As for the image, i'm not releasing it just to score a few brownie points on [PDF].

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## White privilege

Trailer23 said:


> Well, I have the image with me. Now unless someone else posts it - i'm gonna hold on to it for a few weeks.
> 
> Besides, no one is replacing JF-17 at Kamra as its still the place where JF-17's are built/manufactured.
> 
> However, its just a model. Its doesn't truly hold any value other than represent the Squadron that will be operating the J-10's.
> 
> As for the image, i'm not releasing it just to score a few brownie points on [PDF].


👍


----------



## Raider 21

Bleek said:


> Should've kept JF-17 due to the Pakistani connection
> 
> If you're going to put a foreign fighter, should've been the F-16, it's a beauty


The first model placed outside Kamra was a F-16. It was a beautiful one (very detailed Serial 82701) I recall, gifted from General Dynamics. I'm not sure what's it has been replaced with, it was reported to have still been there in 2012.

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## alikazmi007

Iron Shrappenel said:


> I think they flew between 9 and 11



If paparazzi can get a pic of Margret Thatcher in a thong, we can get a few decent pics of J-10s over Islamabad!

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## Reichmarshal

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501515921655046145
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501516322794094594
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501516684468830208
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501517095636508674
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501517942760030213


I would consider this with the pinch of salt, if this is the only source bring relied upon. As it mentions a jf 17 block 4.....now theirs no block 4 as things stand right now.
Like the man says nuf said .....

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## iLION12345_1

Khan Sahab said:


> Yeah, I tried it already. I doesn't allow video files to be uploaded. It is saying the uploaded file does not have an allowed extension.


Have you found a way to upload that video? Can you try uploading it to YT?


----------



## Reichmarshal

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Maybe your don't have understandung of new aircrafts---. The JF17 BLK3 needs to go thru integration. It would be atleast a minimum of 5 years that we will have capable pilots to fly this machine.
> 
> A good integration time period is between 8 to 10 years. The J10;s have already gone thru the weapons integration process. The new thing is the aesa radar and that is a different beast.
> 
> The senior pilots have to UN-LEARN their previous air to air combat techniques and learn to adjust to using aesa and COME TO TERMS THAT IT PRESENTS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT AIR COMBAT EXPERIENCE.
> 
> Paf pilots have been in flight training on the J10C for over 2 years now---but really no experience on the BLK 3 other than on computer screen.
> 
> It surprises me that you have commented with confidence but did not know the basics of inducting a new fighter aircraft or a new advanced fighter aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> And still you have not apologized.


Wt ur talking about are all peace time, time frame....that period is avout to come to an end.......abb kahani hah, u hit the straps running or ur basically dead in the water


----------



## Deino

Trailer23 said:


> Just a reminder, the Official Induction will be for both *J-10C* and *JF-17 Block III* together.




Is it correct that for this event the 11. March is currently the most likely date?


----------



## Trailer23

alikazmi007 said:


> If paparazzi can get a pic of Margret Thatcher in a thong, we can get a few decent pics of J-10s over Islamabad!


I'm pretty certain no one here ever wants to see a the Iron Lady in a thong - even in her youth.

That being said, back in 2001 it was Julia Roberts.

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## alikazmi007

Trailer23 said:


> I'm pretty certain no one here ever wants to see a the Iron Lady in a thong - even in her youth.
> 
> That being said, back in 2001 it was Julia Roberts.


LoL still that image in my mind, ugh ......

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## baqai

Trailer23 said:


> Furth more, bare in mind that No. 15 Squadron (Cobras) are going to be based at Kamra.
> 
> It may just be a symbol of the first to receive the J-10's. A model does not indicate ToT or manufacturing of parts.



well i think Kamra is more of a R&D base than a operational base so having a symbol might symbolize something, you are right though it might be indication of first induction as well. Lets see fingers crossed.


----------



## Salza

SR just again confirmed that tomorrow we all are going for a ceremony to induct J10c

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## Bleek

Salza said:


> SR just again confirmed that tomorrow we all are going for a ceremony to induct J10c


How many are there?


----------



## Salza

Deino said:


> Is it correct that for this event the 11. March is currently the most likely date?


Yes interior minister just confirmed the official induction date that is march 11



Bleek said:


> How many are there?


Will be revealed tomorrow at least SR will be there lol

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## Scorpiooo

Lets see how many birds we see there


----------



## Engima Chaudhry

aliyusuf said:


> Could the retired CAS have expressed his point of view before the introduction of the J-10C variant?


Acm Sohail Aman


----------



## Raider 21

baqai said:


> well i think Kamra is more of a R&D base than a operational base so having a symbol might symbolize something, you are right though it might be indication of first induction as well. Lets see fingers crossed.


No it is an operational base. PAC happens to occupy a part of it

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## Beast

Bleek said:


> Should've kept JF-17 due to the Pakistani connection
> 
> If you're going to put a foreign fighter, should've been the F-16, it's a beauty


Why put an F-16 that irk everybody due to its unstable supplier?

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## White privilege

Raider 21 said:


> No it is an operational base. PAC happens to occupy a part of it


Yeah...remember PAF philosophy of using _roads as runways._ They would lay claim to any smooth and wide stretch of asphalt.Hell they squeezed hardened shelters at Okara cantonment to make it an FOB.😁

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## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> A beautiful model of a J-10C has replaced the JF-17 outside Kamra.
> @Windjammer @Hodor


The one in front of PAC mess?


----------



## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> The one in front of PAC mess?


Yaar, you of all people know I've never been to that facility. 

However, it appears to be over some kind of fence/wall with trees in the background & couple of electric poles.

By the way, unlike the last one - this source didn't pull a fast on me like the last time.


----------



## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> Yaar, you of all people know I've never been to that facility.
> 
> However, it appears to be over some kind of fence/wall with trees in the background & couple of electric poles.
> 
> By the way, unlike the last one - this source didn't pull a fast on me like the last time.


There are many models in Kamra .. each factory and its colonies host different models. It must be somewhere in Technical area I guess.

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## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> There are many models in Kamra .. each factory and its colonies host different models. It must be somewhere in Technical area I guess.


It doesn't appear to be too big like the actual jets that have been decommissioned.


----------



## ghazi52

Waiting for the good moment.
PAF base is separate from PAC, using common runway. 
Living near Kamra.

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## Iron Shrappenel

ghazi52 said:


> Waiting for the good moment.
> PAF base is separate from PAC, using common runway.
> Living near Kamra.


You can use the new Attock road.... Near the Air university..... They Turn for final approach for landing right about that point.... If you want to catch them flying away.... You'll need to move about 500 to 700m towards the GT road

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## MastanKhan

Reichmarshal said:


> Wt ur talking about are all peace time, time frame....that period is avout to come to an end.......abb kahani hah, u hit the straps running or ur basically dead in the water



Hi,

There is no such thing as a hit the straps running---.

This integration process did not change for the F22 / F35's aircraft either---. The USAF with all its resources had to wait for a long long time to get its aircrafts integrated into the system.



Deino said:


> And you? You are always only offending, insulting and demanding… did you ever apologize here in this forum?



Hi,

Many a times to many a posters---but never to a spy.

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## Raja Porus

Alas! We've already lost one J10CP in Mian Channu

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## siegecrossbow

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Alas! We've already lost one J10CP in Mian Channu



Did the same people who thought that mig-21 carcass was proof of F-16 shot down break this news also?

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## ABBASIA

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Alas! We've already lost one J10CP in Mian Channu


Where you got this news from.


----------



## siegecrossbow

ABBASIA said:


> Where you got this news from.



Brahmos thread.

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## Thrust_Vector998

https://fb.watch/bGzGvXOGaK/

*Just a week into their arrival and we already have Go-Pro Footage!*

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## Reichsmarschall

Fresh new footage of J10CP


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502144086513717248@Deino @siegecrossbow @Beast and others

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## Riz



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## monitor

First batch of six J-10C received by the

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## TopGun786

Thrust_Vector998 said:


> https://fb.watch/bGzGvXOGaK/
> 
> *Just a week into their arrival and we already have Go-Pro Footage!*


That is so beautiful. Ma Shaa Allah. Alhumdulillah

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## Raja Porus

Reichsmarschall said:


> Fresh new footage of J10CP
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502144086513717248@Deino @siegecrossbow @Beast and others


Why have they not yet received the tail markings of their respective squadron?


----------



## Tehmasib

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502144086513717248


----------



## White privilege

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Why have they not yet received the tail markings of their respective squadron?

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## Deino

monitor said:


> First batch of six J-10C received by the
> View attachment 822860




Here a bit larger:

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## Salza

Sheikh Rasheed just said due to some crucial meeting, I couldn't able to go with PM for my favorite plane induction ceremony just a while back.

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## Bleek

Salza said:


> Sheikh Rasheed just said due to some crucial meeting, I couldn't able to go with PM for my favorite plane induction ceremony just a while back.


He actually has crucial meetings to go to?

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## NA71

Salza said:


> Sheikh Rasheed just said due to some crucial meeting, I couldn't able to go with PM for my favorite plane induction ceremony just a while back.


chalo koi nahein ....he would be present in J-20C induction ceremony

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## cssniper

Rock and roll boys!
The dragons are ruling the sky now.
The video shows that they are preparing for the March 23rd flyby, five in row.
I feel sorry for 106 that he must be sitting and waiting for his companions to arrive. 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## SQ8

Deino said:


> Here a bit larger:
> 
> View attachment 822866


What helmet is that in the video? Any idea?


----------



## Madni Bappa

cssniper said:


> Rock and roll boys!
> The dragons are ruling the sky now.
> The video shows that they are preparing for the March 23rd flyby, five in row.
> I feel sorry for 106 that he must be sitting and waiting for his companions. 🤣🤣🤣


Dual seat hoga yar


----------



## Salza

Bleek said:


> He actually has crucial meetings to go to?


He has. He was the man behind spanking of JUIF militia men yesterday. Rangers and city police comes under him.

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## Deino

And the same clip on youtube:








SQ8 said:


> What helmet is that in the video? Any idea?




Yes, that's the TK-31 light-weight helmet


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502162455916527618

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## Reichsmarschall

Deino said:


> And the same clip on youtube:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's the TK-31 light-weight helmet
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502162455916527618


Does it have hmd/jhmcs capability?


----------



## Tariq Habib Afridi

Reichsmarschall said:


> Does it have hmd/jhmcs capability?


I guess no. However i maybe wrong


----------



## Foxtrot-Bravo

What time is the induction ceremony?


----------



## Deino

Foxtrot-Bravo said:


> What time is the induction ceremony?

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## zeroboy

J-10C induction ceremony

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

Foxtrot-Bravo said:


> What time is the induction ceremony?


Nvm. Its live.


----------



## Ghessan

it's live now:









Dunya News Live Streaming 24/7


Dunya News Watch Live Streaming ICC T20 World Cup




dunyanews.tv


----------



## luciferdd

Reichsmarschall said:


> Does it have hmd/jhmcs capability?


Yes,but pilots usually wear a light-wheight helmet when it's unnecessary.

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## Trailer23

SQ8 said:


> What helmet is that in the video? Any idea?


MSA Gallet (French). 

Some of the guys on the JF-17 & Mirages have been using it for over a year now.

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## Raja Porus




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## Salza

PTV is saying its j10c official ceremony ...I mean no mention of blocks 3..let's see


----------



## Reichsmarschall

zeroboy said:


> J-10C induction ceremony


@Deino you might wanna see this

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## Salza

6 j10c flypast ...


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## Ghessan

ساریاں بھراواں نوں صد صد مبارکاں، منہ مٹھا کرو۔

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## Thrust_Vector998

J-10C contract was signed in June 2021

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## Reichsmarschall

They didn't mention how many jets we are going to get


----------



## Thrust_Vector998

The first J-10 is armed with PL-15 & PL-10s🇵🇰🇵🇰

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

Beautiful sight.

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## Salza

Fully armed j10c


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## HydNizam

PL-15 ?

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## cssniper

Dual-rack with PL-15s.

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## Rafael

are those PL15s or SD 10s?


----------



## Reichsmarschall

Am i seeing pl10 and pl15 on J10CP?


----------



## kursed

Pl-15 on dual racks?

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## Ghessan



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## Foxtrot-Bravo

Princeps Senatus said:


> View attachment 822885
> 
> CAS and Imran Khan


apt.

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## Vapnope

Pl10E and Pl15 🤪


----------



## maverick1977

PL10E and PL15

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## Salza

So JF17 block 3 ceremony will held later ?


----------



## Tariq Habib Afridi

They are definitely PL-15 in dual rack and an PL-10E

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## Bratva

Rafael said:


> are those PL15s or SD 10s?





kursed said:


> Pl-15 on dual racks?

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## Tariq Habib Afridi

Bratva said:


> View attachment 822891


I was refering to these view.. so PL-15 on dual rack it is

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## Salza

Bratva said:


> View attachment 822891


Clearly SD10A fins are different than pl15 in above pic

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## Bratva



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## Bleek

The J-10C has officially become the halal dragon

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## Ghessan

Princeps Senatus said:


> View attachment 822885
> 
> CAS and Imran Khan

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## White privilege

Indeed a proud moment, but that _helmet walk _was lame. Indians do that.

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## Windjammer

Not sure about you guys but I haven't seen PM Imran Khan looking this happy and confident for a while.

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## Foxtrot-Bravo

White privilege said:


> Indeed a proud moment, but that _helmet walk _was lame. Indians do that.






Windjammer said:


> Not sure about you guys but I haven't seen PM Imran Khan looking this happy and confident for a while.


at least he is interested, unlike past reps.

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## Bratva

So, It's PL-15 E 21001001 and PL-10 E @kursed

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## Princeps Senatus

White privilege said:


> Indeed a proud moment, but that _helmet walk _was lame. Indians do that.


another lame thing was calling it "omni-role"


----------



## Raja Porus

What do they mean by 8 months?

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## devil302

So these are pl-15E with reduces range of 145km..😕

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## kursed

Bratva said:


> So, It's PL-15 E 21001001 and PL-10 E @kursed
> 
> View attachment 822897


Ah, guess that bit was wrong then. It’s the export version.

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## Jango

The helmet walk was like some Star Wars march. Who's idea was that?

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## Salza

Bratva said:


> So, It's PL-15 E 21001001 and PL-10 E @kursed
> 
> View attachment 822897


PL15 won't be displayed openly like pl15e. Rest assured, sufficient stocks of pl15 are there too.

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## Reichmarshal

Whats with the pilots wearing helmets while parading, thats very Chinese n not part of the PAF DNA.
Looks very unnatural n idiotic.
Sidhu sb own sqd. gets the privilege of being the first unit to induct the j10c

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## Raja Porus

PL-15 confirmed by the CAS himself.

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## Vapnope

Jango said:


> The helmet walk was like some Star Wars march. Who's idea was that?


You beat me to it. It actually gave some surreal visuals 👽

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## Ghessan

witnin a period of 8 months they were handed over.

just now ACM compared J-10C to F-16s by saying: "after a gap of four decades PAF is inducting next generation combat system.

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## Princeps Senatus

Salza said:


> PL15 won't be displayed openly like pl15e. Rest assured, sufficient stocks of pl15 are there too.


 what makes you so sure?


----------



## Raja Porus

Reichmarshal said:


> Sidhu sb own sqd. gets the privilege of being the first unit to induct the j10c


It's a tradition of PAF


----------



## maverick1977

Bratva said:


> View attachment 822893
> View attachment 822894
> View attachment 822895









Yes PL15


----------



## Basel

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502162853586870283

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## Oruc

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Alas! We've already lost one J10CP in Mian Channu


That is Brahmos CP I think.


----------



## Ghessan

Jumma kisi ne nahin parhna, chalein shahbash sarey bachey uthein .... ACM saab ki spech lambi ho rahi hey

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## Salza

Princeps Senatus said:


> what makes you so sure?


Have we ever displayed our full capability before? No. Let's say we are getting 100 pl15s missiles package. 50 will be pl15E remaining 50 will be pl15.

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## Bleek

Salza said:


> Have we ever displayed our full capability before? No. Let's say we are getting 100 pl15s missiles package. 50 will be pl15E remaining 50 will be pl15.


Also it's unclear whether that 'E' is supposed to be part of the following code or represent 'export'. 

I guess we just have to wait and see.

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## Basel

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502190650699259905

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## Reichsmarschall

Bratva said:


> 21001001


What's the significance of this number?
@siegecrossbow


----------



## Aesterix

4x PL-15E Per ship is quite significant fire power in BVR domain.

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## Reichsmarschall

Salza said:


> PL15 won't be displayed openly like pl15e. Rest assured, sufficient stocks of pl15 are there too.


Are you saying it just to feel better or have you talked to men in charge?

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## White privilege

Princeps Senatus said:


> another lame thing was calling it "omni-role"


Yeah parading servicemen should be wearing skull caps (like PAF),or berets or standard caps, not juggling a helmet.

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## Ghessan

picture says a lot:

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## Zee-shaun

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502190834086981635

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## Salza

Reichsmarschall said:


> Are you saying it just to feel better or have you talked to men in charge?


Let's leave it for now and enjoy the moment. Right after Feb27 clash, _we got the missiles which we were not expected to have as well._

Lol all the ministers in the planes taking selfies like kids

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## Jango

I think Imran Khan is going to learn how to fly the jet with all the questions!

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## Ghessan

Jango said:


> I think Imran Khan is going to learn how to fly the jet with all the questions!


and what about our defence minister, he is a character

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## RangeMaster

Ministers are taking a ride. Everyone is enjoying the moment. Bajwa-Khan conversation seemed full of laughs. Let's hope for the best. 
PS Welcome 26 guests lurking here.

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## cssniper

Bratva said:


> View attachment 822893
> View attachment 822894
> View attachment 822895


The racks seem to be newly designed.


----------



## Hassan Imtiaz

MashAllah...🇵🇰🇵🇰🇵🇰 may they fulfill the duty. amen

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## GumNaam

Bratva said:


> View attachment 822893
> View attachment 822894
> View attachment 822895


you see 4 PL15s, I see 4 dead rafales. 😎

by the way, those look like regular flight helmets, not HMDs...

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## AMRAAM

Any pictures of the helmet walk? People are talking about it but no pic so far on at least the last 3-4 pages.

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## CSAW

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502197145583206403


----------



## Aesterix

F-16 escorting The Dragons into Pakistani air space.

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## zeroboy

PM Imran Khan inspects newly inducted J10C fighter accompanied by COAS and Air Chief

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## White privilege

This was just fine, PAF why u do helmet walk??😁🤣

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## TopGun786

Induction ceremony


Salza said:


> Let's leave it for now and enjoy the moment. Right after Feb27 clash, _we got the missiles which we were not expected to have as well._
> 
> Lol all the ministers in the planes taking selfies like kids


Which missiles we got then? PL-15? or something esle?

Welcome to the 25 guests watching and reading pics/posts on this forum.


----------



## bananarepublic

Vapnope said:


> You beat me to it. It actually gave some surreal visuals 👽


Someone post the helmet please. 
JEE EFF - 10 space ferrying plane


----------



## Ghessan

AMRAAM said:


> Any pictures of the helmet walk? People are talking about it but no pic so far on at least the last 3-4 pages.

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## HydNizam



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## Ghessan

visitors include?

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## Salza

TopGun786 said:


> Induction ceremony
> 
> Which missiles we got then? PL-15? or something esle?
> 
> Welcome to the 25 guests watching and reading pics/posts on this forum.


Yes these same missiles pl15s or SD10B.


----------



## TopGun786

Salza said:


> Yes these same missiles pl15s or SD10B.


So you mean SD-10A is PL-12 ... and SD-10B is PL15, right?


----------



## Rahil khan

Congratulations to Pakistan Airforce for this excellent timely purchase. It's been a long wait. J-10 nay bohat wait karwaya bhaiyoo. I hope this combination of medium and light weight fighter planes would become more lethal to maitain our strategic balance. So proud of our men in blue. ❤️❣️💕💓

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## Blueskiez 2001

Contract signed in june 2021...

@MastanKhan


----------



## HydNizam



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## beijingwalker

*Prime Minister Imran Khan attends induction ceremony of modern J-10 C fighter jets and terms it as major addition to country's defense system*

March 11, 2022




Prime Minister Imran Khan has termed the induction of modern J-10 C fighter jets as a major addition to the country's defense system saying it will help address the security imbalance being created in the sub-continent.

He was addressing a ceremony in connection with the induction of J-10 C into Pakistan Air Force at Kamra on Friday.

The Prime Minister also thanked China for providing the modern aircraft to Pakistan in record eight months’ time.

Imran Khan said the entire nation has the confidence that their armed forces are fully capable to defend the motherland. He recalled that Pakistan's response in the wake of Balakot attack sent a clear message to the world that the country is capable to defend itself.

Imran Khan also commended the sacrifices rendered by the armed forces and the nation in the war on terrorism.

Imran Khan appreciated the futuristic and forward looking approach of the Air Force. He said special emphasis will now be given on technology keeping in view the future warfare. We have set up a technology zone for indigenous technology and a university will be established with the cooperation of the PAF to teach all modern technologies to the youth.





PM Imran Khan inspects newly inducted J10C fighter accompanied by COAS and Air Chief


Imran Khan said Pakistan is blessed to have quality professional in all fields.

Alluding to the better economic indicators including increase in tax collection, remittances and exports, the Prime Minister said the money will be used firstly to uplift the poor segments of the society and secondly to further strengthen our defense capabilities.

Air Chief Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, in his remarks on the occasion said it is a historic occasion as it is almost after four decades, the PAF is inducting next generation combat system equipped with state of art technology and weaponry. He said the fighter jet's fully integrated weapons system makes it a potent combat system under the contemporary environment.

He said the induction of the fighter jets will further enhance the PAF's capability to deal with the requirements of contemporary aerial warfare.

The Air Chief appreciated the support extended by the government to equip the PAF with this weapon system.

Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu said we do not wish to engage in any arms race but will continue to enhance our capability to ensure national security and regional stability.

The Air Chief said this induction ceremony is also a testimony to the strong partnership between Pakistan and China. He said our commitment to work together in multiple domain is significant to ensure peace and stability in the region.









PM terms induction of modern J-10 C fighter jets as major addition to country's defense


PM terms induction of modern J-10 C fighter jets as major addition to country's defense




www.radio.gov.pk

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## Deino

Wow 😯… what a day, and I am still at school

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## Aesterix

Fawad Chaudry I guess 🤣🤣

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## beijingwalker

J-10 Pakistan Official Video released by PAF | J-10c Aircraft​

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## Basel

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502204374403416066

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## Riz



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## Scorpiooo

Prime Minister Imran Khan inspecting new J10-C Fighter Jets

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## beijingwalker



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## Beast

Deino said:


> Wow 😯… what a day, and I am still at school
> 
> View attachment 822959
> View attachment 822960
> View attachment 822961
> View attachment 822962


Good.. No Martin Baker ejection seat! 



Basel said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502204374403416066


One targeting pod and one jammer can still carry at main body fuselage, together with two 185kg laser guided bomb....

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## Mumm-Ra

HydNizam said:


> View attachment 822911
> View attachment 822912


Its a great day for PAF and Pakistan...But this just gives imperial Tie fighter vibes

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## HydNizam

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502205213670879232

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## Ghessan

Beast said:


> Good.. No Martin Baker ejection seat!
> 
> 
> One targeting pod and one jammer can still carry at main body fuselage, together with two 185kg laser guided bomb....



i really like dual rack PL-15 demonstration today. just imagine how are they running lungi utha k, 
28 guests and we say: "jee ayaan nu"

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## Cash GK

Pm pilot Khan lol. Deadly combination this machine and Pakistani pilots.


----------



## Nefarious

Anyone know what engines they came with?


----------



## Ghessan

Desert Fox 1 said:


> What do they mean by 8 months?



probably start of production for that very batch


----------



## Riz

Falconless said:


> Not all Captains are equal


Yes , not all captains are like captain safdar

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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> Good.. No Martin Baker ejection seat!
> 
> 
> One targeting pod and one jammer can still carry at main body fuselage, together with two 185kg laser guided bomb....


Can the inner pylon of J10c mount dual rack for 2PL15? I only saw laser bombs and fuel tanks on it.

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## mudas777

Riz said:


> View attachment 822970
> View attachment 822971




According to the Imran I said to the India, lets settle the Kashmir at the cricket match and offered to play the match but I got no where. Now Imran is asking Fascist Modi to settle the score in the air and his buddies are wishing him good luck before seeing him off. Imran smile before reading the last rites of the fascist Modi.  .


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## Windjammer

Dushman ki kanpain tang rahi thi.

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## beijingwalker

*J-10 C fighter jets






























*

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## arjunk

Scorpiooo said:


> Prime Minister Imran Khan inspecting new J10-C Fighter Jets
> 
> View attachment 822974
> View attachment 822975
> View attachment 822976
> View attachment 822977


If you showed this to a Pakistani in 2010 imagine their reaction.

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## Ghessan

Goritoes said:


> View attachment 822989


woh bhi pashto ganoon wala FM


----------



## kursed

So, anyone who was following PAF... in the 90s.. can you believe your eyes today? =)

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## Ghessan

Windjammer said:


> Dushman ki kanpain tang rahi thi.
> 
> View attachment 823000
> 
> 
> View attachment 823001



defence minister saab enjoyed today the most, 

he peeped into cock...........pitt earlier
and then this photo session.... 
and what did he say to ACM saab in his ear

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## NA71

Borthers it was J-10C &JF-17 Block 3 induction ceremony....where is B3?

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## Falconless

HydNizam said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502205213670879232


All three were a captain at some point.

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## Windjammer

Ghessan said:


> defence minister saab enjoyed today the most,
> 
> he peeped into cock...........pitt earlier
> and then this photo session....
> and what did he say to ACM saab in his ear


Da Afreen, per thora Naswar miley gi.

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## NA71

Khatak sb ney khush ho kar J-10C ko Niswar chata di nose cone par.....

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## Riz

Wonderful

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## Ghessan

kursed said:


> So, anyone who was following PAF... in the 90s.. can you believe your eyes today? =)


i'm the one ...

i was first mesmerized by mirages in the seventies when first saw them flying low over the compound of our house. 

then eighties with F-16 induction.

and then nervous nineties came ... and we all feel the heat.

i would say, today PAF going in full swing to bear fruit on several fronts undergoing in air and space domain. 

this is our day.

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## Readerdefence

Deino said:


> Wow 😯… what a day, and I am still at school
> 
> View attachment 822959
> View attachment 822960
> View attachment 822961
> View attachment 822962


Hi Deino any idea how many Months of training for a pilot to be trained for j10 
looks Like PAF is getting trained on Chinese j10s before 2022
if possible to answer 
thank you


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## arjunk

J-10s were officially purchased in June 2021...

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## farok84

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502227879580483587

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## Ghessan

Windjammer said:


> Da Afreen, per thora Naswar miley gi.


نسوار مې د خان صاحب په جیب کې پریښود

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## Windjammer

General Sahib, how about a trip to Delhi.

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## GeraltofRivia

Congratulations for the successful induction of beautiful birds, best wishes!

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## Stealth

Riz said:


> Wonderful
> 
> View attachment 823004



That green HUD literally push me to go to the washroom for something ... --------------SEXYYYYYYYYYYYYYY baby

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## Bratva

It was No.15 who dropped bomb on Naryal supply depot on 27 feb. Where is Group Captain Faheem Ahmed, Who dropped H-4 On Indian Supply depot? He was OC No.15 as far as i Know?

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## leviathan

Bro, are you guys able to find out the maximum power of the ws10AorB engine on J10CP? 132kn or 140kn? It's still a mystery for Chinese Militray fan and have been debating it for past 10 years. 
Please help us.

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## WinterFangs

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502230313421975555

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## Trailer23

Ghessan said:


> i really like dual rack PL-15 demonstration today. just imagine how are they running lungi utha k,
> 28 guests and we say: "jee ayaan nu"
> 
> View attachment 822983


Oh bhai, ye wo suwar🐷 awaam hai jo din-raat hum ko 'Porkis' kh-ti rh-ti hai.

Khood ka Forum tou 15-20 loog (aik he Nationality) kay bal-booday pay chal raha hai.

Chamaar khood *[PDF]* pay ID bana-kar baithay hain aur yaha say screenshots apnay thaakay howay so-called forum pay import kartay hain.

*#LOSERS*​

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## Windjammer

THE RAFALE RIPPER.

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## MM_Haider

miss you F16...

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## Salza

arjunk said:


> J-10s were officially purchased in June 2021...


Contract was probably officially signed in June 2021 though we were in serious talks with them for the last 2 years.

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## sneakerspark

Bratva said:


> It was No.15 who dropped bomb on Naryal supply depot on 27 feb. Where is Group Captain Faheem Ahmed, Who dropped H-4 On Indian Supply depot? He was OC No.15 as far as i Know?


He is OC base now if i can recall. Idk which base.


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## Jinn Baba

What an AMAZING start to my day 😍 

Cant wait for Block 3 induction ceremony now later in the year.

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## Stealth

Salza said:


> Contract was probably officially signed in June 2021 though we were in serious talks with them for the last 2 years.



We end up with this because of delays and slow progress on J31. Pak has closely monitored J31 for the past 5 - 6 years. There was no point in getting 4.5+ when the world is moving towards stealth.

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## AMRAAM

Which Sqn they are inducted in?


----------



## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

HD Quality of video just added more sweetness in the whole ceremony.

I have no complaints to PTV for covering this ceremony.They did their job quite well this time.

Now wishing same quality covering of 23 March ceremony.

Good work PTV.Keep it up.

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## Windjammer

Stealth said:


> We end up with this because of delays and slow progress on J31. Pak has closely monitored J31 for the past 5 - 6 years. There was no point in getting 4.5+ when the world is moving towards stealth.


Oh yara, there are countries in better economic shape than us who are still inducting F-16s, Grippen and Rafales which are a lot more expensive, we needed to replace the Mirages and also something with a big stick... This was the best option.



MM_Haider said:


> miss you F16...


F-16s aren't going anywhere. In fact it were F-16s which escorted the J-10s into Pakistan.

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## khail007

Finally and formally Pakistan inducts the J-10C in PAF:

PM Imran, Gen Bajwa attend special PAF ceremony to induct J-10C fighter jets​Dawn.comPublished March 11, 2022 - Updated about 9 hours ago














3




Prime Minister Imran Khan, COAS Gen Bajwa inspect J-10C aircraft during a ceremony at Kamra Air Base on Friday. — Photo: Prime Minister Office
The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on Friday formally inducted modern J-10C fighter aircraft in its fleet during a ceremony at the Kamra Air Base.
Prime Minister Imran Khan, Chief of Army Staff Gen Qamar Javed Bajwa, Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmad Babar, Chief of Naval Staff Amjad Khan Niazi, Peshawar Corps Commander Lt Gen Faiz Hameed as well as senior federal ministers attended the ceremony.
According to state-run wire service _APP_, the J-10C is larger and can be equipped with a bigger active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar than the one used by the JF-17 Block 3. The aircraft can carry more advanced, fourth-generation air-to-air missiles including the short-range PL-10 and the beyond-visual-range PL-15.
The military had in January confirmed the long-speculated deal with China for the supply of J-10C jets. It had said that the acquisition was being done in view of the regional security matrix that required Pakistan’s armed forces to continuously upgrade their capacity.
Many think the J-10C deal is Pakistan’s answer to Rafales bought by India from France.
Interior Minister Sheikh Rashid had told journalists in December that J-10C jets would participate in the March 23 parade.
Addressing the ceremony today, the prime minister thanked China for providing the jets to Pakistan in a "record time of eight months".
"I am glad that our armed forces have a futuristic and forward-looking approach because technology is going to be a great tool for future warfare," he added.
The premier said the country would spend more on its defence as its wealth increased with time.
The prime minister said the entire nation had the confidence that our armed forces were fully capable to defend the country. He recalled that Pakistan's response in the wake of the Balakot intrusion sent a clear message to the world that the country was capable to defend itself.
He stressed that developing indigenous technology was the need of the hour, saying "Pakistan is working on it".
PM Imran noted that Pakistanis were skilled in all modern fields, but they were based abroad. He then expressed the hoped that the country's talent would soon be serving Pakistan. "We can build any institution of international quality and we are very much capable of it."
Earlier, the prime minister was presented a guard of honour by a contingent of the PAF.
The prime minister witnessed a thrilling fly-past of various formations of aircraft, including the newly inducted J-10C, F-16s, JF-17s and Mirage that showcased an array of avionics and weaponry.
After the fly-past, the prime minister witnessed the landing of five J-10C aircraft.
The prime minister and the service chiefs were later asked to inspect the newly inducted fighter jet from the inside. The premier climbed up into the pilot seat with the air chief and the COAS standing next to him as an officer gave them a briefing on the jet's capabilities and functionality.










PM Imran, Gen Bajwa attend special PAF ceremony to induct J-10C fighter jets


"Pakistan will spend more on its defence as the wealth of the country grows," says PM Imran.



www.dawn.com

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## Hareeb

Can J-10C carry PL-21 and any possibility of PL-21 integration in future?


----------



## AMG_12

Windjammer said:


> Dushman ki kanpain tang rahi thi.
> 
> View attachment 823000
> 
> 
> View attachment 823001


General Faiz Hameed at the induction ceremony

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## khail007

Congrats to everyone.
Finally and formally Pakistan inducted J-10C in the PAF:

PM Imran, Gen Bajwa attend special PAF ceremony to induct J-10C fighter jets​Dawn.comPublished March 11, 2022 - Updated about an hour ago














3





Prime Minister Imran Khan, COAS Gen Bajwa inspect J-10C aircraft during a ceremony at Kamra Air Base on Friday. — Photo: Prime Minister Office
The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on Friday formally inducted modern J-10C fighter aircraft in its fleet during a ceremony at the Kamra Air Base.
Prime Minister Imran Khan, Chief of Army Staff Gen Qamar Javed Bajwa, Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmad Babar, Chief of Naval Staff Amjad Khan Niazi, Peshawar Corps Commander Lt Gen Faiz Hameed as well as senior federal ministers attended the ceremony.
According to state-run wire service _APP_, the J-10C is larger and can be equipped with a bigger active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar than the one used by the JF-17 Block 3. The aircraft can carry more advanced, fourth-generation air-to-air missiles including the short-range PL-10 and the beyond-visual-range PL-15.
The military had in January confirmed the long-speculated deal with China for the supply of J-10C jets. It had said that the acquisition was being done in view of the regional security matrix that required Pakistan’s armed forces to continuously upgrade their capacity.
Many think the J-10C deal is Pakistan’s answer to Rafales bought by India from France.
Interior Minister Sheikh Rashid had told journalists in December that J-10C jets would participate in the March 23 parade.
Addressing the ceremony today, the prime minister thanked China for providing the jets to Pakistan in a "record time of eight months".
"I am glad that our armed forces have a futuristic and forward-looking approach because technology is going to be a great tool for future warfare," he added.
The premier said the country would spend more on its defence as its wealth increased with time.
The prime minister said the entire nation had the confidence that our armed forces were fully capable to defend the country. He recalled that Pakistan's response in the wake of the Balakot intrusion sent a clear message to the world that the country was capable to defend itself.
He stressed that developing indigenous technology was the need of the hour, saying "Pakistan is working on it".
PM Imran noted that Pakistanis were skilled in all modern fields, but they were based abroad. He then expressed the hoped that the country's talent would soon be serving Pakistan. "We can build any institution of international quality and we are very much capable of it."
Earlier, the prime minister was presented a guard of honour by a contingent of the PAF.
The prime minister witnessed a thrilling fly-past of various formations of aircraft, including the newly inducted J-10C, F-16s, JF-17s and Mirage that showcased an array of avionics and weaponry.
After the fly-past, the prime minister witnessed the landing of five J-10C aircraft.
The prime minister and the service chiefs were later asked to inspect the newly inducted fighter jet from the inside. The premier climbed up into the pilot seat with the air chief and the COAS standing next to him as an officer gave them a briefing on the jet's capabilities and functionality.









PM Imran, Gen Bajwa attend special PAF ceremony to induct J-10C fighter jets


"Pakistan will spend more on its defence as the wealth of the country grows," says PM Imran.



www.dawn.com

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## Stealth

Recent inductions J10Cs, TB2 & CH4B UCAVs, HQ9B SAMs, AIP Yuan Class, Milgem & Type 054A/P, YLC8E VHF radars, establishing C4ISR ISTAR CC for COIN Ops. I mean….

btw ye koi mazak horaha thay matlab free may yaa loan pe b koi nahe daysakhta even China b nahe.... To FBR pata karwaoo ye paisa kahan say araha hey lol ....

damn formidable force. Apart from non-conventional, Pakistan now has enough capabilities in kinetic warfare (conventional) to hit any country anytime anywhere whosoever in its range.

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## siegecrossbow

Reichsmarschall said:


> Fresh new footage of J10CP
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502144086513717248@Deino @siegecrossbow @Beast and others



You guys are so lucky. Do you know how long it took China to admit that J-10C was the official designation, let alone release official high def footage like these? Around 3 years.

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## m52k85

Oh no no no! Pajeets tera kia hoga. Matlab koi haya hoti hai koi tameez hoti hai. 8 maheenay, 6 jahaz, ground crew bhi ready, 6 pilot bhi. Aur phir dual-rack par bhi laga ke dekah dia aur pejhay se 9 aur pilots bhi aa gae. Hay tera kia ho ga!

What a pleasant surprise this morning!


----------



## Bilal.

Stealth said:


> Recent inductions J10Cs, TB2 & CH4B UCAVs, HQ9B SAMs, AIP Yuan Class, Milgem & Type 054A/P, YLC8E VHF radars, establishing C4ISR ISTAR CC for COIN Ops. I mean….
> 
> btw ye koi mazak horaha thay matlab free may yaa loan pe b koi nahe daysakhta even China b nahe.... To FBR pata karwaoo ye paisa kahan say araha hey lol ....
> 
> damn formidable force. Apart from non-conventional, Pakistan now has enough capabilities in kinetic warfare (conventional) to hit any country anytime anywhere whosoever in its range.


+ SH15 artillery, VT4 tank, Yarmook Class OPV, additional Erieyes, and Z10ME in pipeline.

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## siegecrossbow

Reichsmarschall said:


> What's the significance of this number?
> @siegecrossbow



@Deino should know.


----------



## Inception-06

Windjammer said:


> THE RAFALE RIPPER.
> 
> View attachment 823014
> 
> View attachment 823015



What type of missiles are this ?


----------



## Kaleem.61

CSAW said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502197145583206403




A while ago I saw an Indian comparing MK2 with J10C and SU30 with J20 even claimed SU30 can see J20. Hilarious!
The Indian government has turned a blind eye to the overwhelming military and tactical advantage India enjoys over China in Ladakh and Tibet region.


...


> The strongest fighter plane in IAF is Sukhoi 30 MKI as compared to J-20 of China. While J-20 boasts of it’s stealth characters Su-30 is able to see them on radar. SU-30 is an interceptor as well as air superiority fighter plane and is a supersonic aircraft.


...



> Taking all these factors India looks stronger than china.

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## siegecrossbow

Inception-06 said:


> What type of missiles are this ?



PL-15 and PL-10. Don’t know how it works in Pakistan but in PLAAF, white missiles are live missiles. Blue ones are training rounds.

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## Path-Finder

WinterFangs said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502230313421975555


where waz dis mention3d?

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## Bleek

Haven't we had the HQ-9P for a while already?


----------



## Falcon26

siegecrossbow said:


> PL-15 and PL-10. Don’t know how it works in Pakistan but in PLAAF, white missiles are live missiles. Blue ones are training rounds.



I wish PAF a follows its own conventions and protocols about missiles. I am not a big fan of the Chinese style of coloring missiles different from the plane. 

No need to change a perfect protocol.


----------



## WinterFangs

Path-Finder said:


> where waz dis mention3d?

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## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> F-16s aren't going anywhere. In fact it were F-16s which escorted the J-10s into Pakistan.
> 
> View attachment 823017


Griffins OC - Wg Cdr. Usman Niazi escorted the J-10's himself.

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## CSAW

Fire Power Available at disposal.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502254722706817025

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## Path-Finder

what country is that space station over!

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## Deino

My most favourite one from today!

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## ahtan_china

👍👍

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## Raider 21

Reichmarshal said:


> Whats with the pilots wearing helmets while parading, thats very Chinese n not part of the PAF DNA.
> Looks very unnatural n idiotic.
> Sidhu sb own sqd. gets the privilege of being the first unit to induct the j10c


Yeah. The march looked pretty idiotic. Indians do it a lot.

15 Squadron is Cobra Country. In the 80s it had a message written where it said *WELCOME TO COBRA COUNTRY* at Peshawar. And inside the ready room, *COBRA KAI NEVER DIES*.



Trailer23 said:


> MSA Gallet (French).
> 
> Some of the guys on the JF-17 & Mirages have been using it for over a year now.
> 
> View attachment 822873
> 
> 
> View attachment 822874​


Initial helmets and connectors are Chinese. Eventually they'll be replaced.

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## siegecrossbow

Bratva said:


> So, It's PL-15 E 21001001 and PL-10 E @kursed
> 
> View attachment 822897



There is always chance for upgrades in the future.

Here is a photo of Chinese delegation saluting Imran Khan.

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## Bratva

Raider 21 said:


> Yeah. The march looked pretty idiotic. Indians do it a lot.
> 
> 15 Squadron is Cobra Country. In the 80s it had a message written where it said WELCOME TO COBRA COUNTRY at Peshawar. And inside the ready room, COBRA KAI NEVER DIES.
> 
> 
> Initial helmets and connectors are Chinese. Eventually they'll be replaced.



If pilots were not thick or chonky, that helmet march would have had looked less awkward. Chinese or American pilots look cool doing that because they are fit.


----------



## siegecrossbow

Riz said:


> View attachment 822966
> View attachment 822967
> View attachment 822968
> View attachment 822969



I know what you are thinking, but the last photo is not J-20.

1) The vertical slabs are very large and not all movable.
2) The canard shape is trapezoidal and not swept.


----------



## serenity

Bratva said:


> If pilots were not thick or chonky, that helmet march would have had looked less awkward. Chinese or American pilots look cool doing that because they are fit.



Short and stocky pilots make the best fighter pilots actually.

Tall and skinny is the worst for dealing with G forces.

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## monitor

Sexy beast👍

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## siegecrossbow

serenity said:


> Short and stocky pilots make the best fighter pilots actually.
> 
> Tall and skinny is the worst for dealing with G forces.



Don't forget thick necks.

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## Riz

But where are Jf-17 block 3 ??


----------



## ZY-CN-CA

Windjammer said:


> Oh yara, there are countries in better economic shape than us who are still inducting F-16s, Grippen and Rafales which are a lot more expensive, we needed to replace the Mirages and also something with a big stick... This was the best option.
> 
> 
> F-16s aren't going anywhere. In fact it were F-16s which escorted the J-10s into Pakistan.
> 
> View attachment 823017


Want to know F16 VS J10Cwhich one is better,Which on pilots prefer to fly~



leviathan said:


> 兄弟，你们能找出J10CP上ws10AorB引擎的最大功率吗？132kn 还是 140kn？对于中国军迷来说，这仍然是一个谜，并且已经争论了10年。
> 请帮助我们。:俗气的:


not very sure-WS10B-144kn

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## siegecrossbow

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Alas! We've already lost one J10CP in Mian Channu



Looks like all six j-10CPs are intact. Maybe Pakistan has discovered the magical art of necromancing downed aircraft? Bhakts should be very scared since this means Pakistan might necro all of their downed fighter jets and use it against them.

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## Salza

CSAW said:


> Fire Power Available at disposal.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502254722706817025


Some of the fire power mentioned will be available in the next 4-5 years especially subs while most of them are in the process of induction.


----------



## Salza

Riz said:


> But where are Jf-17 block 3 ??


They will be inducted 'officially' in one go that is when all 18 are ready.

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## Riz

Salza said:


> They will be inducted 'officially' in one go that is when all 18 are ready.


5 sall sa wait kar raha hon yaar ab to bus ho gai ha


----------



## maverick1977

Wow Seeing dual rack PL15… 
can some one share or make missile configuration options on pylons in graphics form .. i can see a total of 8 total PL15 per aircrafts ??????? citation or comments ?


----------



## Deltadart

Thank you , deltas, thunders, falcons, and now vigorous dragons for protecting the motherland.
May Allah always keep you in his protection. Ameen.

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## siegecrossbow

maverick1977 said:


> Wow Seeing dual rack PL15…
> can some one share or make missile configuration options on pylons in graphics form .. i can see a total of 8 total PL15 per aircrafts ??????? citation or comments ?



Inner pylons could theoretically be made missile adaptable but the process takes so long that it is impractical.

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## 帅的一匹

siegecrossbow said:


> Inner pylons could theoretically be made missile adaptable but the process takes so long that it is impractical.


Why is that?


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## siegecrossbow

帅的一匹 said:


> Why is that?



It's an issue with the design. Do keep in mind that the basic airframe was first developed in the late 1990s.

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## Deino

帅的一匹 said:


> Why is that?




From what I read, the fuel tanks are attached in a way that they are not simply detached but they are connected in quite a complicate way. So if you want to remove the tanks, certain panels on top of the wings need to be opened ... and so on, so that most often they are left as they are.

I think somewhere on my harddrive I have an image showing that ...

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## 帅的一匹

Deino said:


> From what I read, the fuel tanks are attached in a way that they are not simply detached but they are connected in quite a complicate way. So if you want to remove the tanks, certain panels on top of the wings need to be opened ... and so on, so that most often they are left as they are.
> 
> I think somewhere on my harddrive I have an image showing that ...


But picture shows the inner pylon of J10c can carry laser bomb, why not PL15?


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## ghazi52

..
Congratulations!!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502201154192777218!
..

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## GOAT

Quite intriguing to see PL-15E on the planes and not PL-15. Perhaps the Chinese still did not want to sell the PL-15? Or perhaps PAF has assessed that the PL-15E are sufficient for the threat environment.

I suppose China may be willing to provide the non-export variants during a war time scenario?


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## ghazi52

.





..

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## siegecrossbow

GOAT said:


> Quite intriguing to see PL-15Es on the planes and not PL-15s. Perhaps the Chinese still did not want to sell the PL-15s? Or perhaps PAF has assessed that the PL-15Es are sufficient for the threat environment.
> 
> I suppose China may be willing to provide the non-export variants during a war time scenario.



I have a theory, and this is based on what China has done with long range guided rocket artillery. The dual-pulse motor is still there. However, there is a software toggle preventing it from being activated in the export version. If the situation is dire, the override switch could be provided.

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## GOAT

siegecrossbow said:


> I have a theory, and this is based on what China has done with long range guided rocket artillery. The dual-pulse motor is still there. However, there is a software toggle preventing it from being activated in the export version. If the situation is dire, the override switch could be provided.


That is a really interesting theory. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## ghazi52

...




.........

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## Char

monitor said:


> View attachment 823044
> View attachment 823045
> 
> Sexy beast👍



How long have Pakistani pilots been training in China?


----------



## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

.....





Let's take a moment & appreciate Federal Interior Minister Sheikh Rasheed Ahmad ..
Its because of him WE KNOW 
.........

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

ghazi52 said:


> .....
> View attachment 823068
> 
> 
> Let's take a moment & appreciate Federal Interior Minister Sheikh Rasheed Ahmad ..
> Its because of him WE KNOW
> .........


"Qanoon mein Hath lia"😜

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## ghazi52

..







....

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## siegecrossbow

Char said:


> How long have Pakistani pilots been training in China?



Long enough that they had to bring their family members, who went on a crazy electronics shopping spree in Chengdu.

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## 星海军事

GOAT said:


> Quite intriguing to see PL-15E on the planes and not PL-15. Perhaps the Chinese still did not want to sell the PL-15? Or perhaps PAF has assessed that the PL-15E are sufficient for the threat environment.
> 
> I suppose China may be willing to provide the non-export variants during a war time scenario?


Just curious, but how do you distinguish between PL-15 and PL-15E?


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## Deino

Thrust_Vector998 said:


> J-10C contract was signed in June 2021



Any more info on the number ordered in this contract and how many are planned altogether?

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## Blueskiez 2001

Notice that there where 12 pilots in the parade - keeping 2:1 ratio per J-10C

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## Air Wolf

Alhumdulillah....May Allah protect them and they serve the motherland with honor and dignity. Historic day.

MashaAllah....very beautiful looking fighter (especially side view)

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## CodeforFood

Do we know what power plant is being used on the supplied J10Cs?


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## Char

siegecrossbow said:


> Long enough that they had to bring their family members, who went on a crazy electronics shopping spree in Chengdu.



One year at most, because the contract was signed last year.


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## Boxer1122

Air Wolf said:


> Alhumdulillah....May Allah protect them and they serve the motherland with honor and dignity. Historic day.
> 
> MashaAllah....very beautiful looking fighter (especially side view)
> 
> 
> View attachment 823070



The bottom air-intake kind of makes it a younger and more advanced brother of PAF's -16's. Can anyone post a pic of J-10CP with full loadout with pilots wearing HMD's (interested in seeing BVR missiles especially)? I am digging the holographic HUD.


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## White privilege

NA71 said:


> PAF CYBER FORCE


Lol so 🧀🧀







HydNizam said:


> View attachment 822952


Kon hai jo _sapnon _mei aaye...🤣😁


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## TaimiKhan

Deino said:


> Any more info on the number ordered in this contract and how many are planned altogether?



For now a full sqn plus few more. Somewhere around the 25-26 figure.

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## Deino

ghazi52 said:


> ..
> View attachment 823069
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....




Better

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## MisterSyed

What is a JF17 Lift? Bit Unrelated but somebody posted a list of tech here we are getting soon. And there it was Jf17 Super Thunder Block 3, which i get it must be a mistake, but also a Jf17 LIFT. Thanks.


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## Deino

TaimiKhan said:


> For now a full sqn plus few more. Somewhere around the 25-26 figure.




I thought there were reports about more ... many more in fact!

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## siegecrossbow

MisterSyed said:


> What is a JF17 Lift? Bit Unrelated but somebody posted a list of tech here we are getting soon. And there it was Jf17 Super Thunder Block 3, which i get it must be a mistake, but also a Jf17 LIFT. Thanks.



Twin seater.

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## Windjammer

Lethal yet Gracefull.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502265793584709637

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## Falcon26

Deino said:


> Better
> 
> View attachment 823083


 
Even better

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## Windjammer

*Hum bi kharey hain rahoun mein.*

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## HRK



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## Zarvan

Pakistan Air Force confirms J-10 C, HQ 9, WING LONG 2, TB 2 Baraytkar and Akinci along with a new radar and also Cyber and Space commands

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## YurtDefence

J-10 is a beautiful plane. May it serve Pakistan well.

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## Deino



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## UKBengali

Great plane and an excellent addition to PAF.

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## beijingwalker

Via which route did they fly to Pakistan, from Xinjiang?


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## siegecrossbow

Deino said:


> View attachment 823103
> 
> 
> View attachment 823104


I’ve never seen so many WS-10 equipped J-10s lined up before.

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## ProudPak

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan Air Force confirms J-10 C, HQ 9, WING LONG 2, TB 2 Baraytkar and Akinci along with a new radar and also Cyber and Space commands


India will not be pleased


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## YurtDefence

siegecrossbow said:


> I’ve never seen so many WS-10 equipped J-10s lined up before.


Would you happen to know whether there is WS-10 documentary on it's development, would love to watch it!


----------



## Clutch

Ghessan said:


> defence minister saab enjoyed today the most,
> 
> he peeped into cock...........pitt earlier
> and then this photo session....
> and what did he say to ACM saab in his ear



He said to the ACM, "Who are you? And where am I?"

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## baqai

Salza said:


> Sheikh Rasheed just said due to some crucial meeting, I couldn't able to go with PM for my favorite plane induction ceremony just a while back.



Translates to: "i wasnt invited to the event because i could not keep my big mouth shut" 

congratulations everyone, what a day, what a sight

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## TopGun786

YurtDefence said:


> Would you happen to know whether there is WS-10 documentary on it's development, would love to watch it!


Any link to the video?

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## HRK

Shotgunner51 said:


> Wow that is the real deal!

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## beijingwalker

HRK said:


> View attachment 823115
> 
> View attachment 823116


Look like they flew from newly built Tashkurgan Khunjerab Airport , sitting on the Chinese Pakistan border, it may only take one hour to reach Islamabad

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## HRK



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## beijingwalker

This supply route is super close, a strategic location which China can quickly supply Pakistan in the time of needs









Xinjiang's first high plateau airport-Tashkurgan Airport on Pamir plateau


Xinjiang's first high plateau airport-Tashkurgan Airport on Pamir Plateau Tashkurgan Airport is a proposed new airport construction project for Tashkurgan, in Tashkurgan Tajik Autonomous County, Xinjiang, China. The airport will be the first for the region and forms part of a series of...



defence.pk

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## cssniper

source: https://m.weibo.cn/3061210763/4745924754805022

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## MystryMan

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 823001


Is it normal for the other services chiefs to be invited to the induction ceremony of big ticket items?


----------



## AsifIjaz

Deino said:


> From what I read, the fuel tanks are attached in a way that they are not simply detached but they are connected in quite a complicate way. So if you want to remove the tanks, certain panels on top of the wings need to be opened ... and so on, so that most often they are left as they are.
> 
> I think somewhere on my harddrive I have an image showing that ...


If I am not mistaken J10 carries significant amount of fuel in the wings.. infact if I am not mistaken then amongst similar weight airctaft, it is comparatively on the higher side. Please correct me if I am wrong here.
Also, without the inner most pylons carrying fuel tanks, what would be the range solely based on internal fuel?
The reason I ask this is because unlike China, Pakistan may not need longer legs and if required then we can have the mid fuselage pylon carry a single fuel tank. This way we can use the inner most pylon for pods or may be design a different dual rack (e.g. vertical racks or dissimilar configuration) where the fuselage or the landing gear does not hamper carrying 2 missiles or a pod or any combination of missile. 
Would love to hear thought or why we can't do this with J10-CP

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## cssniper

source: https://m.weibo.cn/3061210763/4745960046203423

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## Windjammer

MystryMan said:


> Is it normal for the other services chiefs to be invited to the induction ceremony of big ticket items?


Then the army chief, General Raheel Shareef was also present at the induction of former Jordanian F-16s into PAF.
It's also likely the new aircraft will have a maritime role to play in support of Pak Navy.

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## PakShaheen79

In his speech, PAF chief thanked Army Chief for his support. I am not sure what sort of support that could be, but I think it's related to fiscal management of defense budget so that space for J-10C induction on emergency basis can be completed. Agreement was signed on 25th June 2021 (after budget was approved) and delivery before next budget just in 8 months. It only shows that PAF has pushed with this induction ... Question remains, what triggered this expedited acquisition?

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## MastanKhan

Blueskiez 2001 said:


> Contract signed in june 2021...
> 
> @MastanKhan



Hi,

Thanks for the information.

Signing a contract comes at the end of all the assessments and negotiations.

It is not the first time that pak military has agreed to buy equipment, had assessed and analyzed the aircraft, requested to make changes in advance and then signed the contract at a later date.

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## NA71

Anyone with better or HD video plz 
....the dashing Mirage is love ...unmatchable


----------



## maverick1977

cssniper said:


> View attachment 823146
> 
> View attachment 823148
> 
> View attachment 823149
> 
> View attachment 823147
> 
> 
> source: https://m.weibo.cn/3061210763/4745924754805022


The cockpit has a green hue ! ?????? what kind of tainted cockpit is it? benefits besides UV protection ?

Any chatter in foreign media, specifically from the jealous neighbor ?


----------



## Aesterix

Path-Finder said:


> where waz dis mention3d?


Watch the video of PAF new song. It's all in there.


----------



## NA71

CodeforFood said:


> Do we know what power plant is being used on the supplied J10Cs?


great question....


----------



## KampfAlwin

maverick1977 said:


> The cockpit has a green hue ! ?????? what kind of tainted cockpit is it? benefits besides UV protection ?
> 
> Any chatter in foreign media, specifically from the jealous neighbor ?


Its canopy is likely coated with Indium-Tin-Oxide. It helps reflect radar waves, making the jet more stealthy. The green hue is the HUD

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## The Eagle

I have moved most of PAF Cyber Space posts to following thread. Members are further requested to continue with Cyber Space discussion in particular topic.









PAF Cyber Space Command


Well, the cat is out of the bag, I guess. First, Sohail Aman sb made a casual mention of PAF taking over SUPARCO missions lead. And now this video with a banner staring us in the face. There are more details to this, but as told @JamD and @Bilal Khan (Quwa) - we’d expect more news from PAF on...



defence.pk





Thread is sticky now.

Regards,

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## MastanKhan

Chak Bamu said:


> Nobody needs to apologize for an honest opinion based on available information. Its not as though he is being incompetent on a sensitive position. This is just a forum. For a while I also thought that J-10's performance gap with JF-17 was not big enough to justify a buy decision. This too was based on opinion of retired PAF chief (I forget his name). So, you better demand an apology from him rather than a poster on this forum.
> 
> Nobody here makes sensitive decisions. So, chill buddy.
> 
> Besides, you are on his ignore list & I have told you this more than once already.



Hi,

But you are not on his ignore list---so he knows.

It was never about the performance gap---but the NUMBERS GAP.

It is always about the numbers gap---read up on nations and wars---it is always about the numbers and how they are used.

The Paf was always below par in numbers in 4th gen aircraft.

I have shared many a times---if you have 5 machine guns---and you add 5 more machine guns---it makes 100% increase in firepower and capabilities and may have a 500% increase in a force multiplier effect---.

It may also have massive "pucker effect" on the enemy.

The FORCE MULTIPLIER effect is the most important aspect in this numbers game of in parallel increase in power.

If on the 27th feb---we had 36 more JF17 BLK 2's---or 36 more J10's---our response would have been totally different.

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## The Eagle

Deino said:


> From what I read, the fuel tanks are attached in a way that they are not simply detached but they are connected in quite a complicate way. So if you want to remove the tanks, certain panels on top of the wings need to be opened ... and so on, so that most often they are left as they are.
> 
> I think somewhere on my harddrive I have an image showing that ...



Aren't those installed on pylon attached to wing? How would you drop tanks during an unpleasant scenario up in the air? I don't think a fighter aircraft will be counted as modern whereby its drop tanks are mostly left hanging due to removal issues. It doesn't makes sense at all.

You are in air battle/fight and imagine the rest of comedy I wanted to share about dropping such (glued) fuel tanks to ease the load on fighter jet.

Or I just totally missed the point here?

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## ZY-CN-CA

I guess next one is J-20C!

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## Readerdefence

HRK said:


> View attachment 823115
> 
> View attachment 823116
> 
> View attachment 823114
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 823117
> View attachment 823118
> View attachment 823119
> View attachment 823120
> View attachment 823121
> View attachment 823122
> View attachment 823123
> View attachment 823124
> 
> View attachment 823126
> View attachment 823127


Hi HRK 
in second picture of the cockpit pilot wearing HMDS (if he is) what kind of hmds 
or just a regular helmet 
thank you


----------



## ZY-CN-CA

YurtDefence said:


> Would you happen to know whether there is WS-10 documentary on it's development, would love to watch it!


this one is 2005 WS-10 documentary on it's development

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## TaimiKhan

Deino said:


> I thought there were reports about more ... many more in fact!



Initial order for now, to bolster the qualitative numerical number which was imbalanced due to the Rafael. 

I believe 2 sqn for now are in sight. Block-3 are coming online, rest will get upgraded also. Thus 30-40 J10s, 150 JF17s and 70 or so F16s would be one good quality wise air force. But if more rafael or other jets inducted, the J10 numbers or even JF17 numbers may increase. 

Next stop would be 5th gen. In coming decade or even before this might come to sub continent and if india initiates it first, we will follow.

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## Readerdefence

PakShaheen79 said:


> In his speech, PAF chief thanked Army Chief for his support. I am not sure what sort of support that could be, but I think it's related to fiscal management of defense budget so that space for J-10C induction on emergency basis can be completed. Agreement was signed on 25th June 2021 (after budget was approved) and delivery before next budget just in 8 months. It only shows that PAF has pushed with this induction ... Question remains, what triggered this expedited acquisition?


Hi what triggered can be PAF f16 missiles might not be a match for Rafale for IAF as Indian start inducting Rafale only option is PL15 whatever E or the one Chinese using themselves PAF knows better 
just a thought for expediting of this acquisition lastly when PAF had a air exercise with China in Pakistan that can also be a moment for PAf to get this bird as COAS himself inspected the gem including sitting in its cockpit 
thank you

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## GumNaam

ghazi52 said:


> .....
> View attachment 823068
> 
> 
> Let's take a moment & appreciate Federal Interior Minister Sheikh Rasheed Ahmad ..
> Its because of him WE KNOW
> .........


in his honor, we should rename our J10C Dragons to JS10 Sheeda! so that when indians see the J10C on the radar, they'll yell "oh bhaag bhosdi kay, JS10 Sheeda aya"!

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## Princeps Senatus

Bilal. said:


> + SH15 artillery, VT4 tank, Yarmook Class OPV, additional Erieyes, and Z10ME in pipeline.


additional erieyes? what's the total number now?


----------



## siegecrossbow

ZY-CN-CA said:


> I guess next one is J-20C!



Surely you meant JS-20.

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## Princeps Senatus

Kaleem.61 said:


> A while ago I saw an Indian comparing MK2 with J10C and SU30 with J20 even claimed SU30 can see J20. Hilarious!
> The Indian government has turned a blind eye to the overwhelming military and tactical advantage India enjoys over China in Ladakh and Tibet region.
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


SU 30 MKI with it ancient russian pesa radar can not see f-16 before it gets AMRAAM to the face let alone J-20

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## Shotgunner51

KampfAlwin said:


> Its canopy is likely coated with Indium-Tin-Oxide. It helps reflect radar waves, making the jet more stealthy. The green hue is the HUD


Yes, it's ITO (Indium Tin Oxide) electroconductive film coating embedded between the layers of optical glass, it has a golden tint on the canopy (same can be seen on J-20). It serves to scatter radio waves in various directions so as not to be detected by radar, and act as electromagnetic wave shield preventing harmful electromagnetic waves from invading into cabin except for visible radiation.

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## Inception-06

A new Era has started for the Pakistani Forces, Indian forces will find themself on a very intense future battlefield, Pakistan is bravely contesting every field of war!

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## Stealth

Scene @ race track



jaldi tasveer keench jani gari ka owner araha hey

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## araz

HydNizam said:


> PL-15 ?
> View attachment 822883


That too on dual rack!!
There was once a Madam who was quite a bit senior to us and known to say inappropriate things. She was once gently teased by a boy.And she said with great authority" agar marey bhaiyon ko pata chal gaya to wo to us ki lay lain ge...... ( I swear I dont think she knew what she was saying or understood its implications) . When I saw those PL15s on DER this is what I thought of!!!  😅

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## The Eagle

AMRAAM said:


> Which Sqn they are inducted in?



If not already answered, it is No. 15 Cobras squadron.

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## snne

Hi, is there a full link with english subtitles of the ceremony? Asking for a friend 🙂


----------



## siegecrossbow

KampfAlwin said:


> Its canopy is likely coated with Indium-Tin-Oxide. It helps reflect radar waves, making the jet more stealthy. The green hue is the HUD



Rumor has it that the frontal RCS is 0.5 M^2 without lid under optimal angle. During a parade in 2018 ground radar had trouble tracking the bird and had to make proper adjustments.

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## sheik

Ghessan said:


> probably start of production for that very batch


Ordered in June last year and ready for delivery in 8 months

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## Metal 0-1

HRK said:


>


yo they playing Kerbel Space Program

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## V. Makarov

Aatay hue 1 Dahi ka packet, 2 doodh ke, aur 1 darjan anday letay aana.

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## beijingwalker



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## syed_yusuf

The induction of js10 seems to remind me of induction of fsola in 1983 ... Very similar pattern and coverage .. protocol and fan fare .... Am I missing something here ?

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## Falconless

HydNizam said:


> View attachment 822911
> View attachment 822912


A bit weird to see pilots conducting drills in flight suits

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## baqai

HydNizam said:


> View attachment 822911
> View attachment 822912



dude ... that's cringe worthy stuff ARGH !!!!


----------



## beijingwalker

画面为疑似歼-10C座舱人机界面，采用了2平3下布局；2平是1台广角衍射平视显示器+1台多功能小尺寸显示器，3下是3台多功能大屏幕显示器，飞行控制方式仍为单杆操控。

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## Path-Finder

did my eyes deceive me or there were no HMDCS?


----------



## NA71

dear members watch at 18:38 to 41 the Air Chief Gestures were direct threats to India....

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## MastanKhan

MystryMan said:


> Is it normal for the other services chiefs to be invited to the induction ceremony of big ticket items?


Hi,

Yes---and this is a unique ceremony. A new page in the history of the Paf.

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## maverick1977

Any coverage from India ?


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## blain2

First ever "canard" to have been inducted in the service of PAF along with the first operational IRST capability. Hope this bodes really well for the PAF's evolution. Must also say thank you to China for coming through.

I am aware that many people maybe questioning why this and not JF-17. The simple answer is that we needed a bigger aircraft with more A2A payload for persistence in the air. While we can certainly put up 4 JF-17s against 2 Rafale's etc., but at one point, having a bigger radar, more ordnance on a platform helps.

I think Alhamdolillah PAF has a very balanced fleet now across the board.

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## CodeforFood

V. Makarov said:


> Aatay hue 1 Dahi ka packet, 2 doodh ke, aur 1 darjan anday letay aana.
> 
> View attachment 823200


in our times. It used to be adha kilo dahi..

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## maverick1977

blain2 said:


> First ever "canard" to have been inducted in the service of PAF. Hope this bodes really well for the PAF's evolution. Must also say thank you to China for coming through.
> 
> I am aware that many people maybe questioning why this and not JF-17. The simple answer is that we needed a bigger aircraft with more A2A payload for persistence in the air. While we can certainly put up 4 JF-17s against 2 Rafale's etc., but at one point, having a bigger radar, more ordnance on a platform helps.
> 
> I think Alhamdolillah PAF has a very balanced fleet now across the board.




i think Hi lo Strategy might be in play


----------



## ghazi52

..
Just to say " Hello,".






This is Captain speaking...


....

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## SQ8

Metal 0-1 said:


> yo they playing Kerbel Space Program


It does teach a lot of things

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## blain2

Char said:


> How long have Pakistani pilots been training in China?


Close to 8 months I would think.

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## ZedZeeshan

syed_yusuf said:


> The induction of js10 seems to remind me of induction of fsola in 1983 ... Very similar pattern and coverage .. protocol and fan fare .... Am I missing something here ?


Zia Ul Haq

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## siegecrossbow

ghazi52 said:


> ..
> Just to say " Hello,".
> 
> View attachment 823233
> 
> 
> This is Captain speaking...
> 
> 
> ....



The shades make him look like Robert Downey Jr.

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

SQ8 said:


> It does teach a lot of things


PAF official YouTube channel has issued a statement about J10C induction.PAF is calling it an Omni role fighter jet.
@JamD

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## SQ8

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> PAF official YouTube channel has issued a statement about J10C induction.PAF is calling it an Omni role fighter jet.
> @JamD


Just a cheap shot at the Rafale being called Omni role in its marketing material

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## Aesterix

syed_yusuf said:


> The induction of js10 seems to remind me of induction of fsola in 1983 ... Very similar pattern and coverage .. protocol and fan fare .... Am I missing something here ?


Now wait for J-10 naswaar.

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## Metal 0-1

SQ8 said:


> It does teach a lot of things


probably the best(civ use) space sim out there

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## V. Makarov

CodeforFood said:


> in our times. It used to be adha kilo dahi..



Unpacked yogurt will make a mess inside an F-16 cockpit if the pilot has to pull some Gs. Trust me, I've been there.

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## Boxer1122

Windjammer said:


> Lethal yet Gracefull.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502265793584709637



So proud to be a Pakistani today. We got J-10C's, HQ-9B's, Akinci, TB-2, JF-17, Tughril and SP howitzers. Seems like every service did their shopping and feel more balanced in all aspects. Huge capability increase within a few months MA.

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## HRK

Char said:


> How long have Pakistani pilots been training in China?


From contract singing till the delivery it took almost 8 moths so may be 6-8 months training

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## Deino

Readerdefence said:


> Hi HRK
> in second picture of the cockpit pilot wearing HMDS (if he is) what kind of hmds
> or just a regular helmet
> thank you




It is, but that's an F-16 pilot and not a J-10C pilot

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## Windjammer

Plenty of legroom to carry those Rahad ALCM.

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## HttpError

blain2 said:


> First ever "canard" to have been inducted in the service of PAF along with the first operational IRST capability. Hope this bodes really well for the PAF's evolution. Must also say thank you to China for coming through.
> 
> I am aware that many people maybe questioning why this and not JF-17. The simple answer is that we needed a bigger aircraft with more A2A payload for persistence in the air. While we can certainly put up 4 JF-17s against 2 Rafale's etc., but at one point, having a bigger radar, more ordnance on a platform helps.
> 
> I think Alhamdolillah PAF has a very balanced fleet now across the board.



The next big logical step should be to have a twin-engine jet in our fleet. I was wondering if there could be another version of J10C with the dual engine? If it is a possibility? @Deino @beijingwalker @siegecrossbow

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## siegecrossbow

HttpError said:


> The next big logical step should be to have a twin-engine jet in our fleet. I was wondering if there could be another version of J10C with the dual engine? If it is a possibility? @Deino @beijingwalker @siegecrossbow



That boat sailed over a decade ago.

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## HttpError

siegecrossbow said:


> That boat sailed over a decade ago.



OK, then should only consider J20 if they will be available for export to Pakistan.


----------



## blain2

Deino said:


> It is, but that's an F-16 pilot and not a J-10C pilot


Correct, it is a shot from the escorting F-16s.


----------



## HRK

Readerdefence said:


> Hi HRK
> in second picture of the cockpit pilot wearing HMDS (if he is) what kind of hmds
> or just a regular helmet
> thank you


F-16 Fighter with JHMCS.

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## SQ8

Deino said:


> It is, but that's an F-16 pilot and not a J-10C pilot


Repeating: What helmet is the J-10 pilot wearing? Any thoughts


----------



## Zibago

HttpError said:


> The next big logical step should be to have a twin-engine jet in our fleet. I was wondering if there could be another version of J10C with the dual engine? If it is a possibility? @Deino @beijingwalker @siegecrossbow


Why dual engine? F-35 is single engine so is the Gripen and they are fairly capable platforms


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## blain2

SQ8 said:


> Just a cheap shot at the Rafale being called Omni role in its marketing material


I think the French are guilty of overhyping marketing there with "Omni-role" designation for the Rafale and a few including our neighbors have bought into it.

Otherwise the US/English parlance of "multi-role" applies to all of their aircraft which are just as capable or even more capable than Rafale.

I saw an Indian gentleman mention that since the Rafale does everything that an MR aircraft does and is also capable of nuclear strike and carrier landings, it is omni-role. The reality is that most MR platforms of the day (including F-16s are capable of nuclear strike) and carrier landings require extra hardening of the aircraft which is not the case when the same aircraft is operating from ground bases so it is a stretch to say the Rafales in use by the French AF and the IAF are exactly the same as those in use with the French Navy.

As far as the ability to switch roles in-flight, that capability is a function of the computing and automation on board the aircraft and the current Typhoons, F-16s, F-15s, F/A-18s as well as J-10C, JF-17s among quite a few other aircraft are all capable of handling the same. As such, I would not put too much emphasis on this Omni vs. MR distinction. It is marketing at best.

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## SQ8

blain2 said:


> I think the French are guilty of overhyping marketing there with "Omni-role" designation for the Rafale and the Indians bought into it.
> 
> Otherwise the US/English parlance of "multi-role" applies to all of their aircraft which are just as capable or even more capable than Rafale.
> 
> I saw one Indian gentleman mention that since the Rafale does everything that a MR aircraft does and also is capable of nuclear strike and carrier landings, it is omni-role. The reality is that most MR platforms of the day (including F-16s are capable of nuclear strike) and carrier landings require extra hardening of the aircraft which is not the case when the same aircraft is operating from ground bases.
> 
> As far as the ability to switch roles in-flight, that capability is available with the current Typhoons, F-16s, F-15s, F/A-18s as well as J-10C's among a few other aircraft. As such, I would not put too much weight on this Omni vs. MR distinction. It is marketing at best.


That what it always has been - if any aircraft really deserves the first “Omni role” moniker it would be the F/A-18 because it demonstrated it during Desert Storm in switching from A2G to A2A and back to A2G again.

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## HttpError

Zibago said:


> Why dual engine? F-35 is single engine so is the Gripen and they are fairly capable platforms



We also require platforms that can do deep strike machines and which can carry heavy payloads. A strategic bomber like H6 is a must but would also require a dual-engine jet if not for PAF than at-least for the PN.


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## HRK

SQ8 said:


> Repeating: What helmet is the J-10 pilot wearing? Any thoughts


Standard Chinese helmet named TK-31, it appear similar to French MSA Gallet helmet

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## blain2

HttpError said:


> We also require platforms that can do deep strike machines and which can carry heavy payloads. A strategic bomber like H6 is a must but would also require a dual-engine jet if not for PAF than at-least for the PN.


It would be a better use of resources to develop stand-off attack, precision munitions. Why risk our aircrews if we have the ability to strike from afar? Is the Tomahawk LACM concept no longer valid?
We don't need deep strike, manned platforms. The idea is to deter. There are plenty of ways to do that while sitting within our own airspace.


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## Flight of falcon

Please guys our forces are not going to show everything we have got with these aircrafts. 

Some things need to be kept secret and used as a surprise for the enemy. What version of PL15 we got is not important. What is important is to let the enemy guess what our J10s will be carrying when they finally meet one.

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## ziaulislam

星海军事 said:


> Just curious, but how do you distinguish between PL-15 and PL-15E?


You cant..its just guess work as usuall here by members
And most of time the guess work proves to be wrong

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

syed_yusuf said:


> The induction of js10 seems to remind me of induction of fsola in 1983 ... Very similar pattern and coverage .. protocol and fan fare .... Am I missing something here ?


Yep. 

This is the PAF's first scalable medium-weight fighter since the F-16. 

In other words, the PAF can -- and probably will -- build a large fleet of these fighters (90+). This is important because India cannot bank on political maneuvering or attrition to deplete the PAF fleet.

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## blain2

Princeps Senatus said:


> another lame thing was calling it "omni-role"


That was "signaling"...

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## Bilal.

Princeps Senatus said:


> additional erieyes? what's the total number now?


Yes if memory serves me right, 3 additional systems were procured per MODP year book.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> Repeating: What helmet is the J-10 pilot wearing? Any thoughts


For the ferry flight, the PAF guys were wearing MSA Gallet helmets. However, the J-10CE and Block-3 will have HMD/S. I suspect the PAF will start kitting those as it integrates both platforms. The really interesting question is whether they're using MSA Gallet helmets because of the HMD/S. In other words, is the HMD/S a modular kit you would add to the MSA Gallet helmet (like JHMCS), or is it a standalone kit (like Striker II).

I think, in the long run, the PAF will issue an HMD/S to every pilot from the LIFT stage (JF-17B). So, as a pilot, you'll have this HMD/S that you'll take with you for the rest of your career: JF-17B to JF-17B3 (and possibly B2) to J-10CE to NGFA.

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## ghazi52

.
DGPR (AIR FORCE)

@DGPR_PAF


Today marks a very important day in the history of PAF as it inducts the state of the art J-10C aircraft in its arsenal. This addition further strengthens PAF as a formidable and potent force well capable of defending the aerial frontiers of our beloved country.









11:48 AM · Mar 11, 2022
....

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## siegecrossbow

SQ8 said:


> Repeating: What helmet is the J-10 pilot wearing? Any thoughts



It is what we call a "panda helmet" in China. Basically light weight helmet for training purposes.

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## WinterFangs



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## GiantPanda

WinterFangs said:


> View attachment 823268



The Indian guy must be in a small subcompact. Looks horrendous cramped!

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## WinterFangs

GiantPanda said:


> The Indian guy must be in a small subcompact. Looks horrendous cramped!


Nope, the mighty Modi ji, saviour of India, the all knowing and gracious, 56inch chest is so huge it just makes everything else small.

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## CodeforFood

ghazi52 said:


> .
> DGPR (AIR FORCE)
> @DGPR_PAF
> 
> 
> Today marks a very important day in the history of PAF as it inducts the state of the art J-10C aircraft in its arsenal. This addition further strengthens PAF as a formidable and potent force well capable of defending the aerial frontiers of our beloved country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 823256
> 
> 11:48 AM · Mar 11, 2022
> ....


Asking again. Do we know what powerplant is in the one supplied to us?


----------



## GiantPanda

WinterFangs said:


> Nope, the mighty Modi ji, saviour of India, the all knowing and gracious, 56inch chest is so huge it just makes everything else small.



Didn't realized he had a 56-inch bust. 

That's bigger than Kim Kadashian's!



CodeforFood said:


> Asking again. Do we know what powerplant is in the one supplied to us?



WS-10B. I thought everyone knew.

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep.
> 
> This is the PAF's first scalable medium-weight fighter since the F-16.
> 
> In other words, the PAF can -- and probably will -- build a large fleet of these fighters (90+). This is important because India cannot bank on political maneuvering or attrition to deplete the PAF fleet.




Yup, and just as importantly for the first time in 70 years it pretty much ends the American strangle hold on the PAF....

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## Deino

SQ8 said:


> Repeating: What helmet is the J-10 pilot wearing? Any thoughts




It is called TK-31

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## ghazi52

.





....

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## blain2

GiantPanda said:


> The Indian guy must be in a small subcompact. Looks horrendous cramped!


When you have a 56 inch chest and an ego to go with it, everything is cramped.


NA71 said:


> Naswaar


For those of us who were around when the first F-16s were inducted, the F-16 brand Naswaar was the hottest thing on the market for Naswaar aficionados.

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## 帅的一匹

AsifIjaz said:


> If I am not mistaken J10 carries significant amount of fuel in the wings.. infact if I am not mistaken then amongst similar weight airctaft, it is comparatively on the higher side. Please correct me if I am wrong here.
> Also, without the inner most pylons carrying fuel tanks, what would be the range solely based on internal fuel?
> The reason I ask this is because unlike China, Pakistan may not need longer legs and if required then we can have the mid fuselage pylon carry a single fuel tank. This way we can use the inner most pylon for pods or may be design a different dual rack (e.g. vertical racks or dissimilar configuration) where the fuselage or the landing gear does not hamper carrying 2 missiles or a pod or any combination of missile.
> Would love to hear thought or why we can't do this with J10-CP


That’s why I love J10c service in PAF, there will be more flexibility and possibility. If the fuselage or the landing gear doesn’t hamper fuel tanks, they will not hamper carrying PL15 or ALCM either.

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## Readerdefence

Deino said:


> It is called TK-31


Hi Deino so PAF getting any HMDS if yes which will be those and just a offtopic PLAAF using HMDS with J10c 
Thank you

Hi any one can confirm what missiles been displayed with J10c at the induction ceremony I believe SD10 and PL8 
may be 
thank you


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## ghazi52

...
Nice art in 2021 and now we have the real one 2022.....................





...
........


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## sheik

Readerdefence said:


> Hi Deino so PAF getting any HMDS if yes which will be those and just a offtopic PLAAF using HMDS with J10c
> Thank you
> 
> Hi any one can confirm what missiles been displayed with J10c at the induction ceremony I believe SD10 and PL8
> may be
> thank you



PL15E and PL10E

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## ziaulislam



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## Great Janjua

Heartily congratulations from my side to PAF and the nation, although am a bit late due to my recent shootout with mods in other words a Ban.

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## HAIDER

ghazi52 said:


> ..
> Congratulations!!
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502201154192777218!
> ..


Imran Khan first question to AVM : How many gallons of diesel does it take.



NA71 said:


> Naswaar









__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365924182391984128

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## TOPGUN

Mashallah congrats to PAF and to Pakistan ... deadly addition to the PAF family.

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## Amaa'n



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## ziaulislam

Ok so will we see pl15 on jf17?

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## Aesterix

Disappointed with PAF getting PL-15E which has reduced range, and not the full range version.

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## sheik

Aesterix said:


> Disappointed with PAF getting PL-15E which has reduced range, and not the full range version.



How do you know PAF did not have PL-15's or a PL-15E cannot be converted to a PL-15?

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## White privilege

V. Makarov said:


> Aatay hue 1 Dahi ka packet, 2 doodh ke, aur 1 darjan anday letay aana.
> 
> View attachment 823200


Plot twist: _The F-16 pilot is flying the J-10 *remotely*..._😁👍

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## Raja Porus

syed_yusuf said:


> The induction of js10 seems to remind me of induction of fsola in 1983 ... Very similar pattern and coverage .. protocol and fan fare .... Am I missing something here ?


Zia ul Haq

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## sheik

ziaulislam said:


> Ok so will we see pl15 on jf17?



Why not?

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## Madni Bappa

V. Makarov said:


> Aatay hue 1 Dahi ka packet, 2 doodh ke, aur 1 darjan anday letay aana.
> 
> View attachment 823200


I bet he's trying to remember if she said dhanya or podina.

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## Madni Bappa

How many fighter squadron we have now?


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## Char

Looking forward to great performance!

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## ahtan_china

the cost of a set J-10C is shipped to Paklstan:
40M US$( Rafale /240M US$)
J-10C + AESA + 4X PL-15 + 2XPL-10 + 3X auxiliary tank

According to the practice of the international arms trade, it usually takes more than a year to pick up the new aircraft after the contract is signed, and sometimes even longer.
PAF get the J-10C in short time. Good luck!

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## Akasa

Windjammer said:


> Plenty of legroom to carry those Rahad ALCM.
> 
> 
> View attachment 823239



Are there plans, or rumors of plans, to integrate Ra'ad with the J-10C? Doing so will give it a comparable standoff A2G capability to that of the Rafale.


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## qwerrty

NA71 said:


> dear members watch at 18:38 to 41 the Air Chief Gestures were direct threats to India....


why are they speaking in english?


----------



## iLION12345_1

sheik said:


> Why not?
> View attachment 823353


That photo is fake, please refrain from posting.

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## Scorpiooo

GOAT said:


> Quite intriguing to see PL-15E on the planes and not PL-15. Perhaps the Chinese still did not want to sell the PL-15? Or perhaps PAF has assessed that the PL-15E are sufficient for the threat environment.
> 
> I suppose China may be willing to provide the non-export variants during a war time scenario?


As unconfirmed news post feb 19 we already got good numbers of PL 15



CodeforFood said:


> Do we know what power plant is being used on the supplied J10Cs?


W10B

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## Deino

Readerdefence said:


> Hi Deino so PAF getting any HMDS if yes which will be those and just a offtopic PLAAF using HMDS with J10c
> Thank you
> 
> Hi any one can confirm what missiles been displayed with J10c at the induction ceremony I believe SD10 and PL8
> may be
> thank you




Concerning a HMDS or even HMCS it is known since long that PLAAF pilots have such a system and I don't think why Paksitan should not get this system too.

Concerning the AAMs, these are clearly PL-15E and PL-10E.

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## sparten

kursed said:


> So, anyone who was following PAF... in the 90s.. can you believe your eyes today? =)


Yes. I had sevreal dreams like this and I fully expect to wake up soon.

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## newb3e

good detailed analysis of j10c

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## Scorpiooo

Deino said:


> Concerning a HMDS or even HMCS it is known since long that PLAAF pilots have such a system and I don't think why Paksitan should not get this system too.
> 
> Concerning the AAMs, these are clearly PL-15E and PL-10E.


Question is why PAF go for PL15E and PL10E ?
1)Any budget problem, possiblelity very less as they getting expensive jets.
2)Chinese restrictions, possible but why with Pakistan.
3)Just free ammo with jets and actuall will be PL15 and PL10 supplied separately, possible as Chinese will charge high for them


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## Raja Porus

Tejas 7th Gen Samosa on Instagram: "Video by @harismalick786 #F16 #J10C #Amraam #aviation"


Tejas 7th Gen Samosa shared a post on Instagram: "Video by @harismalick786 #F16 #J10C #Amraam #aviation". Follow their account to see 98 posts.




www.instagram.com

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## Deino

Finally confirmed, they are officially - at least as per CAC - called J-10CE!

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## araz

Deino said:


> Finally confirmed, they are officially - at least as per CAC - called J-10CE!
> 
> View attachment 823404


How will this plane fly and run when the tyres are not the same size. Latest international conspiracy from Bharat ratshit forum" China delivers planes to PAF with unequal tyres. They cannot run on the tarmac" 😄😆😅🤣😇

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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> Question is why PAF go for PL15E and PL10E ?
> 1)Any budget problem, possiblelity very less as they getting expensive jets.
> 2)Chinese restrictions, possible but why with Pakistan.
> 3)Just free ammo with jets and actuall will be PL15 and PL10 supplied separately, possible as Chinese will charge high for them


Have we considered the possibility that Pakistan just isnt as special as some Pakistanis consider it to be and that’s while China does allow Pakistan some tech that it doesn’t allow others, it doesn’t allow everything to be bought by Pakistan? Why do you think China made an export version of the PL-15 and PL-10? To export it obviously. It’s not like they’ll allow everyone to buy the export version either, it’s sensitive enough as is. Pakistan got the export version, why? Because it’s a foreign country. I don’t see why Pakistanis have a hard time believing that.
Another thing I don’t understand is why Pakistanis think the export versions are so bad, they’re clearly still some of the best in their class. Just putting an E next to the name doesn’t make the missile worst. By that metric Why did Pakistan get J-10CE and not J-10C. Clearly the E next to the name means it’s a downgraded jet.

TLDR: Pakistan got PL-15E and PL-10E because the PLAAF versions aren’t meant for export, and Pakistan isn’t special enough to get access to them (no one is, they’re made for Chinese forces only). The fact that Pakistan is being sold J-10Cs with PL-15E and PL-10E should itself be enough to show how much China is willing to give Pakistan. It’s not that hard to grasp. 

This is the most logical and likely scenario, especially considering people that deny this have no proof and are often proven to be wrong.

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## Bleek

iLION12345_1 said:


> Have we considered the possibility that Pakistan just isnt as special as some Pakistanis consider it to be and that’s while China does allow Pakistan some tech that it doesn’t allow others, it doesn’t allow everything to be bought by Pakistan? Because that’s the most logical and likely scenario, especially considering people that deny this have no proof and are often proven to be wrong.


Exactly 

Some people tend to write out fantasy on what they wish to be the case while passing it off as facts, but have no actual proof and it seems incredibly far-fetched

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## Tariq Habib Afridi

iLION12345_1 said:


> Have we considered the possibility that Pakistan just isnt as special as some Pakistanis consider it to be and that’s while China does allow Pakistan some tech that it doesn’t allow others, it doesn’t allow everything to be bought by Pakistan? Why do you think China made an export version of the PL-15 and PL-10? To export it obviously. It’s not like they’ll allow everyone to buy the export version either, it’s sensitive enough as is. Pakistan got the export version, why? Because it’s a foreign country. I don’t see why Pakistanis have a hard time believing that.
> Another thing I don’t understand is why Pakistanis think the export versions are so bad, they’re clearly still some of the best in their class. Just putting an E next to the name doesn’t make the missile worst. By that metric Why did Pakistan get J-10CE and not J-10C. Clearly the E next to the name means it’s a downgraded jet.
> 
> TLDR: Pakistan got PL-15E and PL-10E because the PLAAF versions aren’t meant for export, and Pakistan isn’t special enough to get access to them (no one is, they’re made for Chinese forces only). The fact that Pakistan is being sold J-10Cs with PL-15E and PL-10E should itself be enough to show how much China is willing to give Pakistan. It’s not that hard to grasp.
> 
> This is the most logical and likely scenario, especially considering people that deny this have no proof and are often proven to be wrong.


The focus should be that whether it will deter IAF or not? which it is and that should be the point to discusss i guess

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## leviathan

iLION12345_1 said:


> Have we considered the possibility that Pakistan just isnt as special as some Pakistanis consider it to be and that’s while China does allow Pakistan some tech that it doesn’t allow others, it doesn’t allow everything to be bought by Pakistan? Why do you think China made an export version of the PL-15 and PL-10? To export it obviously. It’s not like they’ll allow everyone to buy the export version either, it’s sensitive enough as is. Pakistan got the export version, why? Because it’s a foreign country. I don’t see why Pakistanis have a hard time believing that.
> Another thing I don’t understand is why Pakistanis think the export versions are so bad, they’re clearly still some of the best in their class. Just putting an E next to the name doesn’t make the missile worst. By that metric Why did Pakistan get J-10CE and not J-10C. Clearly the E next to the name means it’s a downgraded jet.
> 
> TLDR: Pakistan got PL-15E and PL-10E because the PLAAF versions aren’t meant for export, and Pakistan isn’t special enough to get access to them (no one is, they’re made for Chinese forces only). The fact that Pakistan is being sold J-10Cs with PL-15E and PL-10E should itself be enough to show how much China is willing to give Pakistan. It’s not that hard to grasp.
> 
> This is the most logical and likely scenario, especially considering people that deny this have no proof and are often proven to be wrong.


Time wise... Since AVIC has never produced J-10CE before... and this batch is produced in little more than half year... I don't think AVIC can make any significant change from the original version in such short time. Also China officially lifted technologies restriction on Arms export a few years ago... Exporter no longer require to downgrade or make difference from Chinese own version... for example, Z-10E have better performance than original PLA use Z-10 with latest technology.

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## NW-Blue

Just watched the J10C induction ceremony event recording on YouTube. What a great event. On this historic day, huge congratulations to PAF and all the Pakistani friends here! May peace and prosperity long lasting over your country, and long live the friendship between Pakistan and China!

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## iLION12345_1

leviathan said:


> Time wise... Since AVIC has never produced J-10CE before... and this batch is produced in little more than half year... I don't think AVIC can make any significant change from the original version in such short time. Also China officially lifted technologies restriction on Arms export a few years ago... Exporter no longer require to downgrade or make difference from Chinese own version... for example, Z-10E have better performance than original PLA use Z-10 with latest technology.


I was being sarcastic brother 



Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> The focus should be that whether it will deter IAF or not? which it is and that should be the point to discusss i guess


it will do that just fine, and then some.

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## Tariq Habib Afridi

iLION12345_1 said:


> I was being sarcastic brother
> 
> 
> it will do that just fine, and then some.


That's it. what else do we need more?


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## HRK

Deino said:


> these are clearly PL-15E and PL-10E


Can you state the visual differences b/w PL-15E and PL-15, so make it easy for many of us to recognize both

Same for the PL-10E

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## CHI RULES

iLION12345_1 said:


> Have we considered the possibility that Pakistan just isnt as special as some Pakistanis consider it to be and that’s while China does allow Pakistan some tech that it doesn’t allow others, it doesn’t allow everything to be bought by Pakistan? Why do you think China made an export version of the PL-15 and PL-10? To export it obviously. It’s not like they’ll allow everyone to buy the export version either, it’s sensitive enough as is. Pakistan got the export version, why? Because it’s a foreign country. I don’t see why Pakistanis have a hard time believing that.
> Another thing I don’t understand is why Pakistanis think the export versions are so bad, they’re clearly still some of the best in their class. Just putting an E next to the name doesn’t make the missile worst. By that metric Why did Pakistan get J-10CE and not J-10C. Clearly the E next to the name means it’s a downgraded jet.
> 
> TLDR: Pakistan got PL-15E and PL-10E because the PLAAF versions aren’t meant for export, and Pakistan isn’t special enough to get access to them (no one is, they’re made for Chinese forces only). The fact that Pakistan is being sold J-10Cs with PL-15E and PL-10E should itself be enough to show how much China is willing to give Pakistan. It’s not that hard to grasp.
> 
> This is the most logical and likely scenario, especially considering people that deny this have no proof and are often proven to be wrong.


The modern jets of any AF should be able to dodge AAMs at long ranges of 200 KM, The AAMs having ranges of 150 KM+ for time being may be effective against less maneuverable air targets like AWACS/cargo planes.

Other one PAF never claimed to get this or that it was enthusiasts who claim to get PL-15 or PL-10.

On other hand it is stated and history reveals that PAF gets jets from foreign supplier with modifications, this does not mean that J10 version got by PAF is down graded.
Pak F22Ps frigates variant of Type 053H3 are much advanced than predecessor F7PG was also modified with better performance than F7 and presently tYPE 54P is much upgraded than Chinese ones.

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## Tariq Habib Afridi

HRK said:


> Can you state the difference b/w PL-15E and PL-15, so make it easy for many of us to recognize both
> 
> Same for the PL-10E


yes on the PL-15E and PL-10E there is E written on it

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## HRK

Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> yes on the PL-15E and PL-10E there is E written on it


yaar ....Bro I know this ...

But many members after seeing the pic of J-10 armed with missiles in the ceremony are claiming the Missiles as PL-10*E* & PL-15*E*, but the issue is pic was not showing the nomenclature so it is difficult to assume they read it.


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## Tariq Habib Afridi

HRK said:


> yaar ....Bro I know this ...
> 
> But many members after seeing the pic of J-10 armed with missiles in the ceremony are claiming the Missiles as PL-10*E* & PL-15*E*, but the issue is pic was not showing the nomenclature so it is difficult to assume they read it.


Bhai gustaakhi muaaf ho maine mazaak kiya tha.. But I think no one knows the difference here and if someone he will never share this openly. However, I think there won't be any big difference between both of these missiles.

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> Have we considered the possibility that Pakistan just isnt as special as some Pakistanis consider it to be and that’s while China does allow Pakistan some tech that it doesn’t allow others, it doesn’t allow everything to be bought by Pakistan? Why do you think China made an export version of the PL-15 and PL-10? To export it obviously. It’s not like they’ll allow everyone to buy the export version either, it’s sensitive enough as is. Pakistan got the export version, why? Because it’s a foreign country. I don’t see why Pakistanis have a hard time believing that.
> Another thing I don’t understand is why Pakistanis think the export versions are so bad, they’re clearly still some of the best in their class. Just putting an E next to the name doesn’t make the missile worst. By that metric Why did Pakistan get J-10CE and not J-10C. Clearly the E next to the name means it’s a downgraded jet.
> 
> TLDR: Pakistan got PL-15E and PL-10E because the PLAAF versions aren’t meant for export, and Pakistan isn’t special enough to get access to them (no one is, they’re made for Chinese forces only). The fact that Pakistan is being sold J-10Cs with PL-15E and PL-10E should itself be enough to show how much China is willing to give Pakistan. It’s not that hard to grasp.
> 
> This is the most logical and likely scenario, especially considering people that deny this have no proof and are often proven to be wrong.


Agree, this mean claim by some people that each and every thing is available to Pakistan is false, this pure example of it , if we dont be provided with actual version.

Secondary these are not bad but offcouse downgraded version mean less capable variants.. now in modern air warfare all is about BRV capabilities how can see and shot first (thats it) so all come to Radar and BRV missile capabilities.. 
even difference of 50km will be much is find and kill 

Remember our enemy is upgrading them day by day


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## HRK

Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> Bhai gustaakhi muaaf ho maine mazaak kiya tha.. But I think no one knows the difference here and if someone he will never share this openly. However, I think there won't be any big difference between both of these missiles.


Janta hoo bhai .... wo aik mazak tha ...

Visually I don't find any difference in both versions .... but these many people claiming missiles as E version so thought they might know something which I don't know

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## devil302

HRK said:


> yaar ....Bro I know this ...
> 
> But many members after seeing the pic of J-10 armed with missiles in the ceremony are claiming the Missiles as PL-10*E* & PL-15*E*, but the issue is pic was not showing the nomenclature so it is difficult to assume they read it.


The difference is that E stands for export version and pl-15E is export version which has reduced range of 145 and same will be used by block3 but u never know there might be many pl-15 in our inventory also which can be kept as secret as always paf doesnt show's its cards until the very end and there are no visuall differences IMO i guess

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## Riz

araz said:


> How will this plane fly and run when the tyres are not the same size. Latest international conspiracy from Bharat ratshit forum" China delivers planes to PAF with unequal tyres. They cannot run on the tarmac" 😄😆😅🤣😇


It means France also delivered faulty rafales to Indians??


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## Tariq Habib Afridi

HRK said:


> Janta hoo bhai .... wo aik mazak tha ...
> 
> Visually I don't find any difference in both versions .... but these many people claiming missiles as E version so thought they might know something which I don't know


Now i understant but you know no one knows a jack beside that PL-15 and PL-10 has E attached to them. Most probably their wont be much difference in respect to range and capabilities i guess,

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## MM_Haider

Windjammer said:


> F-16s aren't going anywhere. In fact it were F-16s which escorted the J-10s into Pakistan.


I'm talking about future.. 3/4 decade old F-16 will retire one day and we will end up with Chinese machines only.. it will definitely impact our historic air superiority on India..


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## HRK

devil302 said:


> The difference is that E stands for export version and pl-15E is export version which has reduced range of 145 and same will be used by block3 but u never know there might be many pl-15 in our inventory also which can be kept as secret as always paf doesnt show's its cards until the very end and there are no visuall differences IMO i guess


again bro I know all of this. I was asking was the *visual difference*, as members were claiming about it by seeing a distant pic


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## 帅的一匹

HRK said:


> again bro I know all of this. I was asking was the *visual difference*, as members were claiming about it by seeing a distant pic


Are we sure the PL15 of PLAAF has range more than 145KM?

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## Bleek

HRK said:


> again bro I know all of this. I was asking was the *visual difference*, as members were claiming about it by seeing a distant pic


@Deino or @siegecrossbow should know if there is any



帅的一匹 said:


> Are we sure the PL15 of PLAAF has range more than 145KM?


The export version is stated to be around 145KM, the original surely has a longer range but I don't think there's any concrete number

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## iLION12345_1

CHI RULES said:


> The modern jets of any AF should be able to dodge AAMs at long ranges of 200 KM, The AAMs having ranges of 150 KM+ for time being may be effective against less maneuverable air targets like AWACS/cargo planes.
> 
> Other one PAF never claimed to get this or that it was enthusiasts who claim to get PL-15 or PL-10.
> 
> On other hand it is stated and history reveals that PAF gets jets from foreign supplier with modifications, this does not mean that J10 version got by PAF is down graded.
> Pak F22Ps frigates variant of Type 053H3 are much advanced than predecessor F7PG was also modified with better performance than F7 and presently tYPE 54P is much upgraded than Chinese ones.


Missile ranges are extremely arbitrary and meaningless values. They do not define how good a missile it as all and hence shouldn’t be used as such.

I never said the J-10C was downgraded, I was being sarcastic. The F22P and the F7PG came at a time where the original variants of both of these machines were very, very old, hence the upgrades were necessary to make them worthwhile purchases. Same goes for 054A/P (PS: PNs versions are not massively modified or better, only a few changes, with some of the changes already present in more recent PLAN 054A.)

Such is not the case with J-10, which is already modern and meets PAF requirements. The F22Ps and F7PGs did not have any sensitive technology released with them to Pakistan either. The F7PG was a result of Chinese Incapability at the time to make better equipment and Pakistans desire to sue western tech, again, not the case today.

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## jaybird

HRK said:


> again bro I know all of this. I was asking was the *visual difference*, as members were claiming about it by seeing a distant pic


Someone shared a screen grab of a close up pic from the induction ceremony video yesterday that can see the missile's serial number of PL-15 E 21001001. But other then the serial number, there is no visual difference between PL-15 and PL-15E.

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## farok84

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502565115266097155

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## NA71

Aesterix said:


> Disappointed with PAF getting PL-15E which has reduced range, and not the full range version.


why we are regretting PL-15E?

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## iLION12345_1

NA71 said:


> why we are regretting PL-15E?


We’re not. We got the PL-15E because it’s the export version of the PL-15, meant for, you guessed it, export. Pakistan is a foreign country, it gets the export version.

It’s just that too many Pakistanis think missile ranges actually mean something (they don’t) or that the export missiles are somehow significantly weaker than the Chinese variants without understanding how missiles actually work. It’s just disappointing how little people research before leaving comments like that.

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## NA71

iLION12345_1 said:


> We’re not. We got the PL-15E because it’s the export version of the PL-15, meant for, you guessed it, export. Pakistan is a foreign country, it gets the export version.
> 
> It’s just that too many Pakistanis think missile ranges actually mean something (they don’t) or that the export missiles are somehow significantly weaker than the Chinese variants without understanding how missiles actually work. It’s just disappointing how little people research before leaving comments like that.


so you mean capability wise it same as Chinese variant ...right?

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## 帅的一匹

iLION12345_1 said:


> We’re not. We got the PL-15E because it’s the export version of the PL-15, meant for, you guessed it, export. Pakistan is a foreign country, it gets the export version.
> 
> It’s just that too many Pakistanis think missile ranges actually mean something (they don’t) or that the export missiles are somehow significantly weaker than the Chinese variants without understanding how missiles actually work. It’s just disappointing how little people research before leaving comments like that.


I think we can look at it in this way , the range of PL15P is no less than 145KM. You know we try our best not to scare the shit out of our neighbor

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## Deino

Bleek said:


> @Deino or @siegecrossbow should know if there is any
> 
> 
> The export version is stated to be around 145KM, the original surely has a longer range but I don't think there's any concrete number





HRK said:


> Can you state the visual differences b/w PL-15E and PL-15, so make it easy for many of us to recognize both
> 
> Same for the PL-10E



I think externally visible they are the same - at least I haven't seen close up images to check if the motor section is different (in fact I don't expect them to be) and otherwise these are inert mock-ups only. So to really see any differences, one must have very clear images of live missiles side-by-side.

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## Sidacca

For all those concerned with PL15 E,
From ACM Sohail to ACM sidhu all they are talking about retention of First shot capability yet you guys are concerned with missile range ????

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## NA71

details as per Chinese source:

According to Chinese media citing the U.S. Global Security website, the Chinese Air Force’s own PL-15 long-range air-to-air missile has a range of more than 150 kilometers, possibly as far as 200 to 300 kilometers, with active radar guidance and over-the-horizon combat capability, and could be equipped on the J-10C, J-16 and J-20 fighters.

If previous Western speculation is true, it is clear that the export version of the PL-15E has a discounted range – which is actually comparable to the range of the USAF’s current state-of-the-art AIM-120D long-range air-to-air missile.

Even with the discounted range of the PL-15E, its performance is enough to scare the West. The PL-15 could use either a dual-pulse engine or a ramjet engine and pose a serious challenge to the U.S. and its allied air forces with a range at least equal to that of the AIM-120D, advanced complex guidance, and a supporting active electronically scanned array radar, according to U.S. TheDrive site cited by Chinese media.


source:








Export versions of PL-15 and PL-10 missiles feared by US debut







www.china-arms.com

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## Engineer1

If export variant has 30 percent less range, shouldn't it be smaller in size? It would require less fuel anyways. And there are many reasons to go for it in that case I.e. cost, weight etc if it serves the purpose in matching Indian BVR's. Also its entirely possible that we can have a mixed inventory of regular and E variants. Alternately, it is also possible that only export variants have been made available to us as of now. Its still better than our present capability and make many Indian jets unable to engage J10CE's without being locked first.

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## 帅的一匹

NA71 said:


> details as per Chinese source:
> 
> According to Chinese media citing the U.S. Global Security website, the Chinese Air Force’s own PL-15 long-range air-to-air missile has a range of more than 150 kilometers, possibly as far as 200 to 300 kilometers, with active radar guidance and over-the-horizon combat capability, and could be equipped on the J-10C, J-16 and J-20 fighters.
> 
> If previous Western speculation is true, it is clear that the export version of the PL-15E has a discounted range – which is actually comparable to the range of the USAF’s current state-of-the-art AIM-120D long-range air-to-air missile.
> 
> Even with the discounted range of the PL-15E, its performance is enough to scare the West. The PL-15 could use either a dual-pulse engine or a ramjet engine and pose a serious challenge to the U.S. and its allied air forces with a range at least equal to that of the AIM-120D, advanced complex guidance, and a supporting active electronically scanned array radar, according to U.S. TheDrive site cited by Chinese media.
> 
> 
> source:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Export versions of PL-15 and PL-10 missiles feared by US debut
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.china-arms.com


200 hundreds KM range is an overhyped number, it can’t be true in any circumstances. We will never reveal the number of max range of PL15 to public in any way, it’s national security.

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## Dazzler

SQ8 said:


> Just a cheap shot at the Rafale being called Omni role in its marketing material


The details of subsystems this baby has, is indeed impressive.


Deino said:


> It is called TK-31


Yep. It's the standard PLA helmet these days and is visually similar to Gallet.

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## 帅的一匹

Engineer1 said:


> If export variant has 30 percent less range, shouldn't it be smaller in size? It would require less fuel anyways. And there are many reasons to go for it in that case I.e. cost, weight etc if it serves the purpose in matching Indian BVR's. Also its entirely possible that we can have a mixed inventory of regular and E variants. Alternately, it is also possible that only export variants have been made available to us as of now. Its still better than our present capability and make many Indian jets unable to engage J10CE's without being locked first.


It’s under the table, and you understand it.


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## Riz

帅的一匹 said:


> Are we sure the PL15 of PLAAF has range more than 145KM?


Why would PAF reveal the actual range of PL-15 ? Let the enemy keep guessing , true range would be the one where they found there rafale wreckage

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## Talalqyqyq

Salza said:


> *First direct and official confirmation of J10C induction by PAF.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> watch after 6.00
> 
> Though the news source was posted by someone in New PAF fighter plane doctrine earlier today but I believe , the news itself deserved a new thread since there still have been an ambiguity about J10C induction into PAF until now.
> 
> Sheikh Rasheed always been a big mouth but nevertheless he is an interior minister of Pakistan right now. No joke!
> special tagging @Zarvan : d


Hi


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## 帅的一匹

Engineer1 said:


> If export variant has 30 percent less range, shouldn't it be smaller in size? It would require less fuel anyways. And there are many reasons to go for it in that case I.e. cost, weight etc if it serves the purpose in matching Indian BVR's. Also its entirely possible that we can have a mixed inventory of regular and E variants. Alternately, it is also possible that only export variants have been made available to us as of now. Its still better than our present capability and make many Indian jets unable to engage J10CE's without being locked first.


It’s under the table, and you understand it.


Riz said:


> Why would PAF reveal the actual range of PL-15 ? Let the enemy keep guessing , true range would be the one where they found there rafale wreckage

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## The Eagle

iLION12345_1 said:


> Have we considered the possibility that Pakistan just isnt as special as some Pakistanis consider it to be and that’s while China does allow Pakistan some tech that it doesn’t allow others, it doesn’t allow everything to be bought by Pakistan? Why do you think China made an export version of the PL-15 and PL-10? To export it obviously. It’s not like they’ll allow everyone to buy the export version either, it’s sensitive enough as is. Pakistan got the export version, why? Because it’s a foreign country. I don’t see why Pakistanis have a hard time believing that.
> Another thing I don’t understand is why Pakistanis think the export versions are so bad, they’re clearly still some of the best in their class. Just putting an E next to the name doesn’t make the missile worst. By that metric Why did Pakistan get J-10CE and not J-10C. Clearly the E next to the name means it’s a downgraded jet.
> 
> TLDR: Pakistan got PL-15E and PL-10E because the PLAAF versions aren’t meant for export, and Pakistan isn’t special enough to get access to them (no one is, they’re made for Chinese forces only). The fact that Pakistan is being sold J-10Cs with PL-15E and PL-10E should itself be enough to show how much China is willing to give Pakistan. It’s not that hard to grasp.
> 
> This is the most logical and likely scenario, especially considering people that deny this have no proof and are often proven to be wrong.



The export is used given the legal bindings of International Arm Sale entity. I think it has more to do with unwarranted attention and tons of propaganda coming against Pakistan China. I don't think that an OEM will transfer stock capability as it is unless, there's some kind of defence contract but that too will come on urgent basis in time of war only. Therefore, the word "Export" is apparently added and there is no objection neither the so-called rant by the neighbour before any arm control forum. Nobody is going to ask to fire a PL-15 and prove it since, it will be the enemy in the end at receiving end and wouldn't be able to speak as such. Lastly, I don't see either of parties will declare true capability of its AAM as exactly as it performs. My rough guess is that PL-15 hunts very well and with more % to kill around 180 KM. The surprise element will always be maintained and no matter what; Force is not going to share it at all. Even the induction ceremony was a symbolic presentation to show J-10Cs. No one shall speak of its true capability and why it has such a way of appreciation/regarding the platform.

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## redtom

blain2 said:


> Close to 8 months I would think.


Maybe 3 years.

According to some, The PAF has been evaluating J10C since 2018. I think Pakistan's concern is to avoid provoking an arms race. So it was not until India received the Rafale that it decided to formally purchase the J10C. 

The exchanges between the two air forces are good for both sides, and China is interested in promoting the J10C, so it is normal for customers to test drive it in advance.

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## Stealth

J10 ka khwaab sab se pehlay mainay dekha tha 😆 designed two variations of the poster back in 2010-2011 later used by the PAF (above pic of Rawalpindi PAF center). 







Rememeber @Horus @WebMaster 


@araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal. @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @krash @LeGenD @Side-Winder @SQ8 @waz @Windjammer @Aamir Hussain @The Eagle @Akh1112 @akramishaqkhan @aliyusuf @AMRAAM @Areesh @ARMalik @Clairvoyant @Clutch @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @crankthatskunk @Dalit @DESERT FIGHTER @Desert Fox 1 @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @FuturePAF @Ghessan @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @HRK @HAIDER @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @iLION12345_1 @Khanivore @khansaheeb @kursed @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Mangus Ortus Novem @masterchief_mirza @Mav3rick @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @Nomad40 @notorious_eagle @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Rafi @Riz @SABRE @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Raven @TheSnakeEatingMarkhur @Taimoor Khan @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tipu7 @Tps43 @truthfollower @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Viper27 @Vortex @Verve @White and Green with M/S @Yasser76 @Zarvan @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
hommies @Maarkhoor @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @ZedZeeshan @Trailer23 @Quwa

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## Readerdefence

HRK said:


> yaar ....Bro I know this ...
> 
> But many members after seeing the pic of J-10 armed with missiles in the ceremony are claiming the Missiles as PL-10*E* & PL-15*E*, but the issue is pic was not showing the nomenclature so it is difficult to assume they read it.


Hi HRK I think on one of the PL15 missile if possible to enhance picture it’s written E now that can be some kind of code too 
thank you 
ps that pic I saw was on SDF more clear

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## HRK

Readerdefence said:


> Hi HRK I think on one of the PL15 missile if possible to enhance picture it’s written E now that can be some kind of code too
> thank you
> ps that pic I saw was on SDF more clear


yaap jaybird shared that pic

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## Vortex

Could it be PL15 wearing a PL15E burkha ? I mean a real PL15 but painted as PL15E ?

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## Shah_Deu

帅的一匹 said:


> Are we sure the PL15 of PLAAF has range more than 145KM?


My two cents.

Writing an 'E' with export products is intended to have a more psychological angle to it. Moreover, public information on weapon systems especially of such critical nature is not meant for give any clues away, otherwise is most probable.

I am pretty sure, the exporting nation, China in this case, wouldn't want to export its ace weapons to give away its technological prowess. Still there are some points to ponder on

1. What if the PL-15E which we got is just a standard PL-15? Who will confirm it?

2. In the worst case for China, lets consider the US or any adversary for that matter gets its hands on it and they found out its actual range to be 200km for instance, wouldn't an 'E' on the missile still imply that its original version with China has far more range? Heard of mind games?

3. If any other country buys the same 'PL-15E' from China, which is probable since it is already meant for export market, would anyone believe a 'PL-15E' version sold in future to Saudi Arabia or UAE (with US bases) would be the same one that we have got?

4. Just like a 2.8L Cummins ISF engine is available in 5 different power ratings (with no physical changes at all!) and with just a software flash on ECU, isn't the same possible for a weapon system like 'PL-15'?

Cutting it short, 'E' might just be an 'alphabet' for the pure purpose of psychological warfare. Only the party selling it i.e. the Chinese would know what they sold and the party receiving i.e. PAF of what they bought! I don't think the Indians would be eager to verify this info either while risking another public humiliation on the scale of 27. Feb. And they all lived happily ever after.

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## YurtDefence

ZY-CN-CA said:


> this one is 2005 WS-10 documentary on it's development


Thank you!


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## Yasser76

The big picture here is that the supply of J-10Cs and PL-15s are (almost!) limitless. As long as we have funds and Chinese give generous terms you can really see PAF ordering batch after batch. My guess is 110 aircraft divided into 6 squadrons.

PAF looking possibly like the below in 4-5 years

200 - JF-17s
110 - J-10Cs
75 - F-16s

The J-10C can also certainly replace the Mirage in strike duties too and all F-7s will be replaced shortly. My guess is PAF will wait for TFX then replace the F-16s. Giving us a JF-17/J-10C/TFX force.

Also it may be possible we can get the PL-21 (400km range) further down the line for the J-10C. That would basically put almost all IAF aircraft in Indian Western Command within range of the J-10C the moment that take off....

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## TNT

As far as i know, the main difference between PL 15 and E variant is the tyoe of propellant used.

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## Dreamer.

kursed said:


> So, anyone who was following PAF... in the 90s.. can you believe your eyes today? =)


Yes, why not? Getting latest chinese technology was never considered difficult. 

It was getting latest F-16's i.e. Blk52 that was considered difficult back in those days. But post 9/11 we managed to squeeze a small no. of those. Should've been a lot more.

Good for us that 30 years on, chinese technology is now much closer to latest western technology.

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## Engima Chaudhry

ahtan_china said:


> the cost of a set J-10C is shipped to Paklstan:
> 40M US$( Rafale /240M US$)
> J-10C + AESA + 4X PL-15 + 2XPL-10 + 3X auxiliary tank
> 
> According to the practice of the international arms trade, it usually takes more than a year to pick up the new aircraft after the contract is signed, and sometimes even longer.
> PAF get the J-10C in short time. Good luck!
> 
> View attachment 823364
> 
> View attachment 823365
> 
> View attachment 823366
> 
> View attachment 823367
> View attachment 823368


Is it written j10cp or j10 ce?


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## Dreamer.

Yasser76 said:


> The big picture here is that the supply of J-10Cs and PL-15s are (almost!) limitless. As long as we have funds and Chinese give generous terms you can really see PAF ordering batch after batch. My guess is 110 aircraft divided into 6 squadrons.
> 
> PAF looking possibly like the below in 4-5 years
> 
> 200 - JF-17s
> 110 - J-10Cs
> 75 - F-16s
> 
> The J-10C can also certainly replace the Mirage in strike duties too and all F-7s will be replaced shortly. My guess is PAF will wait for TFX then replace the F-16s. Giving us a JF-17/J-10C/TFX force.
> 
> Also it may be possible we can get the PL-21 (400km range) further down the line for the J-10C. That would basically put almost all IAF aircraft in Indian Western Command within range of the J-10C the moment that take off....


Welcome back to your list making days.

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## Yasser76

Dreamer. said:


> Yes, why not? Getting latest chinese technology was never considered difficult.
> 
> It was getting latest F-16's i.e. Blk52 that was considered difficult back in those days. But post 9/11 we managed to squeeze a small no. of those. Should've been a lot more.
> 
> Good for us that 30 years on, chinese technology is now much closer to latest western technology.



It's true, somehow PAF always seems to ensure we have access to the latest tech, be it F-104 in the 60s, Mirage V in the 70s, F-16A in the 80s, F-16 Block 52 in 2000s and now J-10C. Politics aside it seems Pakistan has always ensure we have an edge, even in small numbers.

Can be very soon that F-16s will be considered "low end" of PAF fleet!!!!

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## Engima Chaudhry

jaybird said:


> Someone shared a screen grab of a close up pic from the induction ceremony video yesterday that can see the missile's serial number of PL-15 E 21001001. But other then the serial number, there is no visual difference between PL-15 and PL-15E.
> View attachment 823427


Shorter forward fins show the missile is faster than sd 10, in flight .


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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

Purchase of PL 15E by PAF shows that PL 15E is enough to counter Rafael.
One more aspect is that if PAF will demand exact version of PL 15 (which might be slightly more long stick) ,Chinese will increase the cost too much to get more profit.So better stick with PL 15E instead of causing too much pressure on already stretched resources.

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## Ghessan

people enjoying their own way:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502199252809748481

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502230978017873920

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502384190142222348

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502376488653496320

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502334629172465667

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502330494800777216


https://twitter.com/ZainnMalikk_/status/1502295264345919489?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1502295264345919489%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.dawn.com%2Fnews%2F1189699

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## NA71

帅的一匹 said:


> 200 hundreds KM range is an overhyped number, it can’t be true in any circumstances. We will never reveal the number of max range of PL15 to public in any way, it’s national security.


now another source quoting:

Medium and long-range air targets, and the PL-15E air-to-air missile unveiled at the Zhuhai Air Show has a maximum range of 145 kilometers. It uses a combination of strapdown inertial navigation/satellite combination + active radar terminal guidance, and the domestic equipment* PL-15E air-to-air missile has a range of Farther, reaching 200 kilometers.

https://min.news/en/military/7c329fd20fd453634f672e6a62474f96.html *


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## Falcon26

Muhammad Saftain Anjum said:


> Purchase of PL 15E by PAF shows that PL 15E is enough to counter Rafael.
> One more aspect is that if PAF will demand exact version of PL 15 (which might be slightly more long stick) ,Chinese will increase the cost too much to get more profit.So better stick with PL 15E instead of causing too much pressure on already stretched resources.



You talk as if PAF is buying milk from the farmers’ market 😂

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## Bratva

siegecrossbow said:


> Speaking of PL-15, I've actually uncovered a public research paper that could potentially shed light on performance speculations. Do keep in mind that the paper states that the figures are "simulated data" and don't refer to any specific AAM, but some of the stats are very interesting.
> 
> View attachment 822652
> 
> 
> The table lists the maximum range of AAM depending on the duration of time that elapses between the two pulses of a dual-pulse rocket motor. Under the head-on condition, the maximum range occurs when there is a 30 second gap between firing. If the gap between firing is 0s, the head-on maximum range is -- SURPRISE -- 145KM. The number matches too closely with the official specs on PL-15E for me not to take notice. What do you call a dual-pulse rocket motor with no pause between firing? A plain old single-pulse rocket motor.
> 
> This pretty much confirmed my suspicion that PL-15E does not feature dual-pulse rocket motor. It also shows that if dual pulse is used in optimal intervals, the unnerfed PL-15 could hit 182KM range.




Kindly all of you guys go through Above post of @siegecrossbow for PL-15 vs PL-15 E range difference


HRK said:


> Can you state the visual differences b/w PL-15E and PL-15, so make it easy for many of us to recognize both
> 
> Same for the PL-10E





CHI RULES said:


> The modern jets of any AF should be able to dodge AAMs at long ranges of 200 KM, The AAMs having ranges of 150 KM+ for time being may be effective against less maneuverable air targets like AWACS/cargo planes.
> 
> Other one PAF never claimed to get this or that it was enthusiasts who claim to get PL-15 or PL-10.
> 
> On other hand it is stated and history reveals that PAF gets jets from foreign supplier with modifications, this does not mean that J10 version got by PAF is down graded.
> Pak F22Ps frigates variant of Type 053H3 are much advanced than predecessor F7PG was also modified with better performance than F7 and presently tYPE 54P is much upgraded than Chinese ones.





HRK said:


> yaar ....Bro I know this ...
> 
> But many members after seeing the pic of J-10 armed with missiles in the ceremony are claiming the Missiles as PL-10*E* & PL-15*E*, but the issue is pic was not showing the nomenclature so it is difficult to assume they read it.





HRK said:


> Janta hoo bhai .... wo aik mazak tha ...
> 
> Visually I don't find any difference in both versions .... but these many people claiming missiles as E version so thought they might know something which I don't know





devil302 said:


> The difference is that E stands for export version and pl-15E is export version which has reduced range of 145 and same will be used by block3 but u never know there might be many pl-15 in our inventory also which can be kept as secret as always paf doesnt show's its cards until the very end and there are no visuall differences IMO i guess





帅的一匹 said:


> Are we sure the PL15 of PLAAF has range more than 145KM?





Bleek said:


> @Deino or @siegecrossbow should know if there is any
> 
> 
> The export version is stated to be around 145KM, the original surely has a longer range but I don't think there's any concrete number





iLION12345_1 said:


> Missile ranges are extremely arbitrary and meaningless values. They do not define how good a missile it as all and hence shouldn’t be used as such.
> 
> I never said the J-10C was downgraded, I was being sarcastic. The F22P and the F7PG came at a time where the original variants of both of these machines were very, very old, hence the upgrades were necessary to make them worthwhile purchases. Same goes for 054A/P (PS: PNs versions are not massively modified or better, only a few changes, with some of the changes already present in more recent PLAN 054A.)
> 
> Such is not the case with J-10, which is already modern and meets PAF requirements. The F22Ps and F7PGs did not have any sensitive technology released with them to Pakistan either. The F7PG was a result of Chinese Incapability at the time to make better equipment and Pakistans desire to sue western tech, again, not the case today.





NA71 said:


> details as per Chinese source:
> 
> According to Chinese media citing the U.S. Global Security website, the Chinese Air Force’s own PL-15 long-range air-to-air missile has a range of more than 150 kilometers, possibly as far as 200 to 300 kilometers, with active radar guidance and over-the-horizon combat capability, and could be equipped on the J-10C, J-16 and J-20 fighters.
> 
> If previous Western speculation is true, it is clear that the export version of the PL-15E has a discounted range – which is actually comparable to the range of the USAF’s current state-of-the-art AIM-120D long-range air-to-air missile.
> 
> Even with the discounted range of the PL-15E, its performance is enough to scare the West. The PL-15 could use either a dual-pulse engine or a ramjet engine and pose a serious challenge to the U.S. and its allied air forces with a range at least equal to that of the AIM-120D, advanced complex guidance, and a supporting active electronically scanned array radar, according to U.S. TheDrive site cited by Chinese media.
> 
> 
> source:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Export versions of PL-15 and PL-10 missiles feared by US debut
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.china-arms.com

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## Aesterix

NA71 said:


> why we are regretting PL-15E?


Because its not on par with meteor.

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## 帅的一匹

Aesterix said:


> Because its not on par with meteor.


Let’s not try to get ahead of ourselves, wait and see

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## Yasser76

Aesterix said:


> Because its not on par with meteor.



Literally no one can say that with any confidence at all. Both missiles true capabilities are not known, neither have seen combat.

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## ziaulislam

iLION12345_1 said:


> Have we considered the possibility that Pakistan just isnt as special as some Pakistanis consider it to be and that’s while China does allow Pakistan some tech that it doesn’t allow others, it doesn’t allow everything to be bought by Pakistan? Why do you think China made an export version of the PL-15 and PL-10? To export it obviously. It’s not like they’ll allow everyone to buy the export version either, it’s sensitive enough as is. Pakistan got the export version, why? Because it’s a foreign country. I don’t see why Pakistanis have a hard time believing that.
> Another thing I don’t understand is why Pakistanis think the export versions are so bad, they’re clearly still some of the best in their class. Just putting an E next to the name doesn’t make the missile worst. By that metric Why did Pakistan get J-10CE and not J-10C. Clearly the E next to the name means it’s a downgraded jet.
> 
> TLDR: Pakistan got PL-15E and PL-10E because the PLAAF versions aren’t meant for export, and Pakistan isn’t special enough to get access to them (no one is, they’re made for Chinese forces only). The fact that Pakistan is being sold J-10Cs with PL-15E and PL-10E should itself be enough to show how much China is willing to give Pakistan. It’s not that hard to grasp.
> 
> This is the most logical and likely scenario, especially considering people that deny this have no proof and are often proven to be wrong.


Yes its poasible we arent special
But historically we have been

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## NA71

Bratva said:


> Kindly all of you guys go through Above post of @siegecrossbow for PL-15 vs PL-15 E range difference


post link sir


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## Rafi

Aesterix said:


> Because its not on par with me



We are retaining first shot capability...nuff said.

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## Deino

Engima Chaudhry said:


> Is it written j10cp or j10 ce?




They are at least per CAC called J-10CE

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## Aesterix

Bratva said:


> Kindly all of you guys go through Above post of @siegecrossbow for PL-15 vs PL-15 E range difference


If PL-15E doesn't have dual pulse motor , then it's more rubbish than i thought. 
Dual pulse doesn't only increase range, it also helps in sustaining kinetic energy while maneuvers and terminal phase.
The missile uses the second motor as close to the target as possible. 
That means the missile has a motor burning, when it needs thrust the most, at the last moments when it's twisting and turning to catch the target.

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## Yasser76

Rafi said:


> We are retaining first shot capability...nuff said.



The real beauty is that IAF supplies of Meteor will be limited (and only can be carried by Rafales), Chinese can probably churn out more PL-15s in a day then IAF has total number of Meteors. That is the game changer here.....


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## NA71

SIZE dekh rahey ho bhai....







PL-15/E has dual pulse propulsion ...can attain Mach 4.0 Speed and pull upto 20G....

Meteor is Mach 5.0 and pull up to 40 G 

(Thanks to google)

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## jisite

Aesterix said:


> If PL-15E doesn't have dual pulse motor , then it's more rubbish than i thought.
> Dual pulse doesn't only increase range, it also helps in sustaining kinetic energy while maneuvers and terminal phase.
> The missile uses the second motor as close to the target as possible.
> That means the missile has a motor burning, when it needs thrust the most, at the last moments when it's twisting and turning to catch the target.


No one actually announced the range of the PL15. It is also possible that the PL15 has the same range as the PL15E（145km）.


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## CombatSurgeon

Aesterix said:


> If PL-15E doesn't have dual pulse motor , then it's more rubbish than i thought.
> Dual pulse doesn't only increase range, it also helps in sustaining kinetic energy while maneuvers and terminal phase.
> The missile uses the second motor as close to the target as possible.
> That means the missile has a motor burning, when it needs thrust the most, at the last moments when it's twisting and turning to catch the target.


There's no second motor! Dual pulse is a mode employed by a single motor. And it truly doesn't work in actual terminal phase. Rather it gives some sustaining energy after initial burn spike. One can say late burnout to early midcourse. That's it. Even Meteor's throttleable motor doesn't last till the terminal phase for final maneuvering.

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## ahtan_china

Engima Chaudhry said:


> Is it written j10cp or j10 ce?


The offical name is J-10CE from manufacturer (AVIC).

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## 帅的一匹

NA71 said:


> SIZE dekh rahey ho bhai....
> 
> View attachment 823460
> 
> 
> PL-15/E has dual pulse propulsion ...can attain Mach 4.0 Speed and pull upto 20G....
> 
> Meteor is Mach 5.0 and pull up to 40 G
> 
> (Thanks to google)


PL15 can attain March6.0 and pull up to 45G, it’s the only dual pulse BVRAAM on this planet until now.

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## Abramar

Everyone freaking out about the difference between PL-15 and PL-15E clearly don't know how missiles work. Range metrics for missiles are practically useless. For Instance the 145km figure for PL-15E, was this at 40000ft, or at sea level? Did the missile loft or take a direct trajectory? What speed was the firing platform travelling at? How fast was the target? Was the target flying hot or cold? There are so many variables to missile range, that you cannot really give a figure to determine it's range. I genuinely believe that there is no difference between PL-15 and PL-15E. I think people on this forum just have some kind of inferiority complex.

When we were getting the J-10, they assumed that we would have inferior engines, when that was proven wrong, they assumed we would have non-AESA, when that was proven wrong, they assumed we wouldn't get the PL-15. Like stfu already. The PAF knows very well what it needs, and it won't settle for less.

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## Yasser76

帅的一匹 said:


> PL15 can attain March6.0 and pull up to 45G



Sadly no chance for any IAF planes to be nicknamed "PL-15 Dodgers".....

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## Bleek

帅的一匹 said:


> PL15 can attain March6.0 and pull up to 45G


Source?



Abramar said:


> Everyone freaking out about the difference between PL-15 and PL-15E clearly don't know how missiles work. Range metrics for missiles are practically useless. For Instance the 145km figure for PL-15E, was this at 40000ft, or at sea level? Did the missile loft or take a direct trajectory? What speed was the firing platform travelling at? How fast was the target? Was the target flying hot or cold? There are so many variables to missile range, that you cannot really give a figure to determine it's range. I genuinely believe that there is no difference between PL-15 and PL-15E. I think people on this forum just have some kind of inferiority complex.
> 
> When we were getting the J-10, they assumed that we would have inferior engines, when that was proven wrong, they assumed we would have non-AESA, when that was proven wrong, they assumed we wouldn't get the PL-15. Like stfu already. The PAF knows very well what it needs, and it won't settle for less.


Nope, there's just a general belief here that things marked as 'E' (export) are significantly downgraded.

Perhaps trauma from the experience with USA 🙃


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## NA71

帅的一匹 said:


> PL15 can attain March6.0 and pull up to 45G


collected that info from different sources .....some from Chinese Forums ....note sure about it.



Bleek said:


> Source?
> 
> 
> Nope, there's just a general belief here that things marked as 'E' (export) are significantly downgraded.
> 
> Perhaps trauma from the experience with USA 🙃


it is downgraded ....


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## Bleek

NA71 said:


> it is downgraded ....


Yes, but -significantly- downgraded, they automatically assume it's useless, when that's not the case.

Plus I believe there's still a possibility of the fully capable version either when we really need it, or soon.


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## Ali_Baba

Looking at the videos of the J10C(E!) - the rear visibility is a lot lot better than what i was expecting - the cockpit looks fairly comfortable.

One thing that i always with Chinese jets is the number of "exposed" cables in the cockpit - be it behind and around the ejection seats and those around the HUD, the general area( i am being pedantic - but then i still get upset when i see the hinges on the JF17B's ..).

No effect on performance i am sure - but odd interms of finish - you tend to not see that in western jets.

The Videos do clearly indicate that the variant is the J10CE from the contract signing ceremony and we should refer to as that going forward.

Seeing PAF pilots "march" around like was odd to me - never seen that before - guess it happens in ceremonies etc but for me that is the first time i have seen that. Normally they are are chilled! The synchronised opening of the cockpits was another one. Guess it was a big event and they wanted to put on a "show".

Good to see the PR of the jet appear so quickly - gives us something to look at - esp the Go-pro camera's, I am not holding my breath on seeing the cockpit pictures anytime soon though.

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## ghazi52

.
A desi uncle posing on China Chowk Lahore wala “Jahaz” after enjoying Lawerence Garden (Jinnah Bagh) k گول گپے (gol gappay) #J10C






12:24 PM · Mar 11, 2022
...

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## siegecrossbow

Aesterix said:


> Because its not on par with meteor.



They are optimized for different flight envelopes. It is not fair to say that one is superior to the other based on maximum range or even NEZ alone. A ramjet powered AAM has a long spool up time after being fired and is not as maneuverable during the interception phase. Those are tradeoffs that are made to achieve higher maximum range.

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## Bleek

ghazi52 said:


> .
> A desi uncle posing on China Chowk Lahore wala “Jahaz” after enjoying Lawerence Garden (Jinnah Bagh) k گول گپے (gol gappay) #J10C
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 12:24 PM · Mar 11, 2022
> ...


Why is he sitting like that? 🤣

Getting a little too intimate with the vigorous dragon over there pal

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## ghazi52

Bleek said:


> Why is he sitting like that? 🤣


....
As no other position is fit for him..

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## Yasser76

Bleek said:


> Why is he sitting like that? 🤣
> 
> Getting a little too intimate with the vigorous dragon over there pal



Was worried he would flip the jet on it's side at one point....

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## Bleek

ghazi52 said:


> ....
> As no other position is fit for him..


Someone needs to photoshop a larki next to him

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## Blueskiez 2001

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for the information.
> 
> Signing a contract comes at the end of all the assessments and negotiations.
> 
> It is not the first time that pak military has agreed to buy equipment, had assessed and analyzed the aircraft, requested to make changes in advance and then signed the contract at a later date.


I totally agree, A big question mark though on negotiations going on since 2014 - as you have stated earlier.

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## ghazi52

Bleek said:


> Someone needs to photoshop a larki next to him



He is leaving No space for her ...

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## Ali_Baba

Bratva said:


> So, It's PL-15 E 21001001 and PL-10 E @kursed
> 
> View attachment 822897



Yep - looks like the export variants and not the PLAAF variants ... Still better than the SD10s and AMRAAMs but probably not the full fat PLAAF versions.

Also the Jet is the J10CE and not J10C - ie "modified" export variant.


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## NA71

PL-15E: China’s jet fighters just got more deadly​








PL-15E: China’s jet fighters just got more deadly


Speaker after speaker at the recent 2021 Air, Space & Cyber Conference, expressed the same urgency — a desire to accelerate modernization to deter Beijing’s rapidly growing military…




asiatimes.com


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## ghazi52

..

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502567299324080134.....

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## Ali_Baba

Salza said:


> PL15 won't be displayed openly like pl15e. Rest assured, sufficient stocks of pl15 are there too.



Please stop making up this random stuff - Pakistan has purchased the export version of the J10CE with the export variants of the PL15E and PL10E - Period - end of story.

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## Skywalker

Aesterix said:


> Because its not on par with meteor.


abey bus kerday bhai.

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## NA71

Ali_Baba said:


> Please stop making up this random stuff - Pakistan has purchased the export version of the J10CE with the export variants of the PL15E and PL10E - Period - end of story.


BAAT SAMJHO----to all

J-10C case is done ....now start new thread " J-20C -News and Update'

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## Ali_Baba

Deino said:


> Wow 😯… what a day, and I am still at school
> 
> View attachment 822959
> View attachment 822960
> View attachment 822961
> View attachment 822962



OMG - how old are you - hopefully as a teacher and not a kid!? lol !



Blueskiez 2001 said:


> Contract signed in june 2021...
> 
> @MastanKhan



You have to ask what changed as a decision point to finally get them then and not before ?

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## Rafi

I'm just sick of the whinning crying little teenage bitches. 

Yesterday was a historic day for our Airforce, it has got capabilities and assets that few in the world have outside much more rich and powerful countries. 

The PAF firmly believes that it has an "edge" in BVR, regarding the principle adversary, they have not come up with this arbitrarily, Air Intelligence using various parameters including real life ones, has accumulated facts on the ground for this conclusion.

I could say alot more about this, but I won't...........nuff said.

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## siegecrossbow

Rafi said:


> I'm just sick of the whinning crying little teenage bitches.
> 
> Yesterday was a historic day for our Airforce, it has got capabilities and assets that few in the world have outside much more rich and powerful countries.
> 
> The PAF firmly believes that it has an "edge" in BVR, regarding the principle adversary, they have not come up with this arbitrarily, Air Intelligence using various parameters including real life ones, has accumulated facts on the ground for this conclusion.
> 
> I could say alot more about this, but I won't...........nuff said.



Indeed. Pakistan has first hand knowledge of Rafale through joint training with Qatar, with rumors of pilots even flying in the aircraft. They should know how J-10C stacks up better than keyboard warriors.

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## Windjammer



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## rAli

Rafi said:


> I'm just sick of the whinning crying little teenage bitches.
> 
> Yesterday was a historic day for our Airforce, it has got capabilities and assets that few in the world have outside much more rich and powerful countries.
> 
> The PAF firmly believes that it has an "edge" in BVR, regarding the principle adversary, they have not come up with this arbitrarily, Air Intelligence using various parameters including real life ones, has accumulated facts on the ground for this conclusion.
> 
> I could say alot more about this, but I won't...........nuff said.


Some folks will never be happy. I had a smile on my face the whole day yesterday thinking how long have we waited for this. Induction of J-10C into PAF is a grace from Allah SWT. PM, all service chiefs and federal ministers were present to celebrate but folks here are crying about why is there an 'E' at the end of the name...nuff said indeed.

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## Ali_Baba

Deino said:


> From what I read, the fuel tanks are attached in a way that they are not simply detached but they are connected in quite a complicate way. So if you want to remove the tanks, certain panels on top of the wings need to be opened ... and so on, so that most often they are left as they are.
> 
> I think somewhere on my harddrive I have an image showing that ...



That kind of implies that a J10CE pilot is at a disadvantage if they have to transition from BVR to WVR as they cannot punch out their fuel tanks before going into the merge ?


----------



## Aesterix

Skywalker said:


> abey bus kerday bhai.


How dare you question my superior knowledge 😤

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## tphuang

Take it easy people. At worst, pl15e has slightly worse kinetic performance than pl15. It is still a really long ranged aam with nez that's probably well north of 50km against rafale. How much longer do you need than that?

More importantly, it is probably the only aam in the world using aesa seeker which makes it more likely to lock on to target and be less effected by fighter ecm. Meteor doesn't have that. Amraam doesn't have that. That's a huge difference maker.

I am really happy about all these high quality photos coming out. You can see how good the build quality of j10c is. Much better than earlier Chinese aircraft. Looks like they benefited from j20 production advancement at cac.

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## 帅的一匹

NA71 said:


> BAAT SAMJHO----to all
> 
> J-10C case is done ....now start new thread " J-20C -News and Update'


Today CCTV13 channel reported that WS15 featuring low bypass rate turbofan with TVC is going well under test for heavy (J20) and MEDIUM weight 5th gen fighter

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## Rafi

tphuang said:


> Take it easy people. At worst, pl15e has slightly worse kinetic performance than pl15. It is still a really long ranged aam with nez that's probably well north of 50km against rafale. How much longer do you need than that?
> 
> More importantly, it is probably the only aam in the world using aesa seeker which makes it more likely to lock on to target and be less effected by fighter ecm. Meteor doesn't have that. Amraam doesn't have that. That's a huge difference maker.
> 
> I am really happy about all these high quality photos coming out. You can see how good the build quality of j10c is. Much better than earlier Chinese aircraft. Looks like they benefited from j20 production advancement at cac.



The PAF is more than happy with its new asset, this will lead to more purchases and include multiple squadrons, and decades of service.

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## blain2

Riz said:


> It means France also delivered faulty rafales to Indians??
> View attachment 823422


Indians claim Chinese hardware to be inferior. However, this is despite the fact that Indians on their own can make nothing and rely on bought "off the shelf" capabilities in all spheres to compete with China and Pakistan. Secondly, Pakistan, even with earlier, more rudimentary Chinese systems (T-59 130mm guns, T-59 tanks, F-6 Farmers) has done serious damage to India in the past wars. Our approach is that we need "good enough" tools to deter and then with our training and optimal employment, handle the rest even if all our systems are not on the high end of the scale. This obviously was the approach in the past but with what we are getting in the JF-17s and J-10s now, we can go toe to toe against anything IAF pitches including additional Rafales.

No adversarial pilot, soldier or sailer will ever question whether the ordnance was of Chinese, Western or Pakistani origin once it hits them. It will hurt and deter the same and this is sometimes lost on those on the other side who throw shade on "China maal".

So I take all of this critique from some of our neighbors as a self-pacification measure with their inferiority complex about all things "gorri" being better and their inability (out of tribalism) to admit that Chinese are moving up rapidly on the high tech scale.

J-10, along with our JF-17 Block IIIs and F-16 blk 52s/MLU are a formidable force regardless of whatever the IAF inventory possesses currently including the 36 Rafales and the 280+ MKIs and the assortment of Mirages, Mig-29s, Jaguars and Bisons. We can hold our own against them and their AF knows this too.



redtom said:


> Maybe 3 years.
> 
> According to some, The PAF has been evaluating J10C since 2018. I think Pakistan's concern is to avoid provoking an arms race. So it was not until India received the Rafale that it decided to formally purchase the J10C.
> 
> The exchanges between the two air forces are good for both sides, and China is interested in promoting the J10C, so it is normal for customers to test drive it in advance.


I was responding to air and ground crew training. 6-8 months is sufficient for this. We did the same turnaround with the F-16s in 1982.

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## Ali_Baba

TaimiKhan said:


> Initial order for now, to bolster the qualitative numerical number which was imbalanced due to the Rafael.
> 
> I believe 2 sqn for now are in sight. Block-3 are coming online, rest will get upgraded also. Thus 30-40 J10s, 150 JF17s and 70 or so F16s would be one good quality wise air force. But if more rafael or other jets inducted, the J10 numbers or even JF17 numbers may increase.
> 
> Next stop would be 5th gen. In coming decade or even before this might come to sub continent and if india initiates it first, we will follow.



I think you should really think of a 100 J10C's as the total order and not 30-40 odd - PAF will place recurring orders in the same way it has been for the JF17 until it gets to that number. PAF has always where possible(ie not restricted by sanctions) always purchased up to that number as a minimum to keep the fleet cost effective and viable with all of the required support infrastructure.

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## blain2

Ali_Baba said:


> That kind of implies that a J10CE pilot is at a disadvantage if they have to transition from BVR to WVR as they cannot punch out their fuel tanks before going into the merge ?


Don't think or believe the above is factual. All fighter aircraft have to have the ability to punch drop tanks simply on account of safety (forget the merge).


ghazi52 said:


> ..
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502567299324080134.....


The PAF CAS has a habit of skipping "s" in the plurals. 

As I have stated in the past, "angraizi" is not his strong-point but he is laser-sharp focused on his service's force transformation plans.

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## Ali_Baba

HRK said:


> From contract singing till the delivery it took almost 8 moths so may be 6-8 months training



Training could have started much earlier than that in simulators and through pilot transfer into squadrons through embedding etc ? PAF would want the pilots to be combat ready asap i would have thought.

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## Princeps Senatus

Yasser76 said:


> The big picture here is that the supply of J-10Cs and PL-15s are (almost!) limitless. As long as we have funds and Chinese give generous terms you can really see PAF ordering batch after batch. My guess is 110 aircraft divided into 6 squadrons.
> 
> PAF looking possibly like the below in 4-5 years
> 
> 200 - JF-17s
> 110 - J-10Cs
> 75 - F-16s
> 
> The J-10C can also certainly replace the Mirage in strike duties too and all F-7s will be replaced shortly. My guess is PAF will wait for TFX then replace the F-16s. Giving us a JF-17/J-10C/TFX force.
> 
> Also it may be possible we can get the PL-21 (400km range) further down the line for the J-10C. That would basically put almost all IAF aircraft in Indian Western Command within range of the J-10C the moment that take off....


we need to go for fifth gen soon there is no reason to have more than 36 J-10s, the moment India goes for fifth gen all of them will become obsolete

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## Dazzler

Missile shipments PAF received post Swift Retort are not E models. China developed and marketed the E models after that, at Zhuhai Airshow' 21to be precise. Ours are different as they are not standard export models.

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## Shotgunner51

An observation on the MAWS


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502562543294095360

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## TopGun786

Yasser76 said:


> Sadly no chance for any IAF planes to be nicknamed "PL-15 Dodgers".....


Actually they can. Remember their Su-30MKI was downed but they still claim it "AMRAAM Dodger" 😁😁



Yasser76 said:


> Sadly no chance for any IAF planes to be nicknamed "PL-15 Dodgers".....


Actually they can. Remember their Su-30MKI was downed but they still claim it "AMRAAM Dodger" 😁😁


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## Ali_Baba

iLION12345_1 said:


> Have we considered the possibility that Pakistan just isnt as special as some Pakistanis consider it to be and that’s while China does allow Pakistan some tech that it doesn’t allow others, it doesn’t allow everything to be bought by Pakistan? Why do you think China made an export version of the PL-15 and PL-10? To export it obviously. It’s not like they’ll allow everyone to buy the export version either, it’s sensitive enough as is. Pakistan got the export version, why? Because it’s a foreign country. I don’t see why Pakistanis have a hard time believing that.
> Another thing I don’t understand is why Pakistanis think the export versions are so bad, they’re clearly still some of the best in their class. Just putting an E next to the name doesn’t make the missile worst. By that metric Why did Pakistan get J-10CE and not J-10C. Clearly the E next to the name means it’s a downgraded jet.
> 
> TLDR: Pakistan got PL-15E and PL-10E because the PLAAF versions aren’t meant for export, and Pakistan isn’t special enough to get access to them (no one is, they’re made for Chinese forces only). The fact that Pakistan is being sold J-10Cs with PL-15E and PL-10E should itself be enough to show how much China is willing to give Pakistan. It’s not that hard to grasp.
> 
> This is the most logical and likely scenario, especially considering people that deny this have no proof and are often proven to be wrong.



Agree - and this is why Pakistan is also looking to make more stuff at home and also grow its relationship with Turkey, who seems to be far less allergic to selling full versions of its systems to Pakistan and not downgraded export variants like China does. eg akinci drones.... latest and best that Turkey has and now in Pakistan...

The question you have to ask yourself - are the AMRAAMs that the Americans have sold to the PAF - downgraded export variants or fully fledged versions? Given that they were 2 for 2 in shooting down a Suk30MKI and Mig21 - they dont seem to have been comprimised?

I think western companies tend to not create downgraded versions for export as they need their products to sell themselves based on solid performance in combat - they simply will sell to you and if they can't - it will be because their goverment wont let you - ie they wont sell to you. Also - they will not sell select weapons eg DFRM pods for Pakistan - rather create a downgraded DRFM pod to "sell you Pakistan" - etc. It is a different approach. The products are the end products for western companies and a reflection of their brand reputation - so they need to perform - esp if all they sell is that product. For China, and Russia - they are goverment organisations who dont need to turn a profit as they have guaranteed revenue streams - so for them - export sales are a bonus and not necessary for their business model - hence they are not as concerned with their reputation.

China has sold E versions of the platforms to PAF which are "downgraded versions" with "reduced' specifications as shown in their literature. Lets not make up stuff by pretending they are any more than that. 

_As to how reduced they are - is anyones guess.._

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## siegecrossbow

Not sure if it has been shared but if it has, doesn't hurt to share it twice.

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## Deino

Ali_Baba said:


> OMG - how old are you - hopefully as a teacher and not a kid!? lol !













NDR Info - Die Nachrichten für den Norden


Die Nachrichten für den Norden: Das ist NDR Info - im Fernsehen, Radio, Web und als App. Außerdem: Kommentare und exklusive Recherchen, Radio im Livestream und aktuelle Videos.




www.ndr.de

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## iLION12345_1

Not an entirely fair comparison. Just because a country isn’t making less capable versions doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t selling them. US sells older block F-16s and Older model AMRAAMs despite the existence of newer models, not so different from China making export versions that share the same tech as the latest ones, even if there are “downgrades” in performance. US doesn’t sell AIM120D to just anyone, they mostly sell older AIM120C models. They don’t sell F-16V to anyone. They will instead sell Older F-16C models (Argentina comes to mind most recently), it just depends on who they’re selling to. China does the same in cases, it has given Pakistan access to some versions of its technology in the past that it wouldn’t to others, and other times it has just given Pakistan the same weapon as it would give to any other country. 


Ali_Baba said:


> Agree - and this is why Pakistan is also looking to make more stuff at home and also grow its relationship with Turkey, who seems to be far less allergic to selling full versions of its systems to Pakistan and not downgraded export variants like China does. eg akinci drones.... latest and best that Turkey has and now in Pakistan...
> 
> The question you have to ask yourself - are the AMRAAMs that the Americans have sold to the PAF - downgraded export variants or fully fledged versions? Given that they were 2 for 2 in shooting down a Suk30MKI and Mig21 - they dont seem to have been comprimised?
> 
> I think western companies tend to not create downgraded versions for export as they need their products to sell themselves based on solid performance in combat - they simply will sell to you and if they can't - it will be because their goverment wont let you - ie they wont sell to you. Also - they will not sell select weapons eg DFRM pods for Pakistan - rather create a downgraded DRFM pod to "sell you Pakistan" - etc. It is a different approach. The products are the end products for western companies and a reflection of their brand reputation - so they need to perform - esp if all they sell is that product. For China, and Russia - they are goverment organisations who dont need to turn a profit as they have guaranteed revenue streams - so for them - export sales are a bonus and not necessary for their business model - hence they are not as concerned with their reputation.
> 
> China has sold E versions of the platforms to PAF which are "downgraded versions" with "reduced' specifications as shown in their literature. Lets not make up stuff by pretending they are any more than that. As to how reduced they are - is anyones guess..

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## mshan44



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## Corax

There's currently no twin seat J-10CE model so it will be interesting to see whether the PAF induct the J-10S for pilot training or strike/special purpose/airborne command purposes. I guess the PAF can readily send pilots to China for type conversion so it may not be a need.


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## Maarkhoor

Corax said:


> There's currently no twin seat J-10CE model so it will be interesting to see whether the PAF induct the J-10S for pilot training or strike/special purpose/airborne command purposes. I guess the PAF can readily send pilots to China for type conversion so it may not be a need.


As per sources training already done long back.


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## Path-Finder

Deino said:


> NDR Info - Die Nachrichten für den Norden
> 
> 
> Die Nachrichten für den Norden: Das ist NDR Info - im Fernsehen, Radio, Web und als App. Außerdem: Kommentare und exklusive Recherchen, Radio im Livestream und aktuelle Videos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ndr.de


face behind the name. i was hoping to see T-Rex if am honest

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## maverick1977

I cant wait to see the pictures of F16 and J10C side by side.

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## HAIDER

Nice structural finishing.

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## Basel

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502565115266097155

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

"Pakistan apni sabqat ko barqarar rakhne k lie smart induction k mansobe per amal pera hai
Collaboration with friendly countries and indiginization compaign is also underway."

AIR CHEIF MARSHAL Zuheer Ahmad

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## Ghessan

NA71 said:


> SIZE dekh rahey ho bhai....
> 
> View attachment 823460
> 
> 
> PL-15/E has dual pulse propulsion ...can attain Mach 4.0 Speed and pull upto 20G....
> 
> Meteor is Mach 5.0 and pull up to 40 G
> 
> (Thanks to google)


Size matters


----------



## The Terminator

araz said:


> To be honest, I am one of those people. I have argued that PAF does not need J10 as it already has a working AESA, PL15 mounted possibly on Dual racks, and a host of other armaments none of whom would otherwise have been possible. However, I conceded that the rapidity with which J10 could replace the obsolete fighters could not be achieved by JFT alone. Secondly Induction of J10 now provides us another Hi platform in the hi-lo pattern in which PAF prepares for battle. Lastly, J10 has given PAF some guarantees against sanction of its premier platform F16, as well as the ease with which one could get spares and attrition replacement. We are all happy to have J10 in PAF colours. So the argument was actually not against the J10 per se, but the reasons for its induction.
> A


Agree but there are some subtle differences between J-10 and JF-17.

J-10 having bigger engine and in medium weight class can support future upgrades better than the very limited real estate and engine output available on the JF-17.

In context of the aforementioned reason, J-10 can offer more operational flexibility than the JF-17.

J-10 can carry larger and heavier payloads than the JF-17, so it would probably be used as a 4++ gen nuclear ALCM delivery platform, long range bigger munitions delivery, much better deep strike capabilities, better suited for Anti-ship role, can utilize more power thirsty avionics and EW suite etc. J-10 can also be regarded as JF-17 on steroids, a bigger brother to support the JF-17 Thunder

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## MastanKhan

Ali_Baba said:


> OMG - how old are you - hopefully as a teacher and not a kid!? lol !
> 
> 
> 
> You have to ask what changed as a decision point to finally get them then and not before ?



Hi,

The engine and the systems matured. The changes made in the aircraft met and exceeded what the Paf had requested since mid 2000.

The aesa radar became available as did the chinese engine.

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## The Terminator

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501515921655046145
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501516322794094594
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501516684468830208
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501517095636508674
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501517942760030213


NUST!



Bossman said:


> What makes you say so?


TAI+NUST bromance! 😜

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## MastanKhan

Ali_Baba said:


> Please stop making up this random stuff - Pakistan has purchased the export version of the J10CE with the export variants of the PL15E and PL10E - Period - end of story.



Hi,

The 'export' version of the Cobra Gunships that we got from the US in the mid 80's were more advanced than the one US army had at that time.

That was a face to face disclosure by a US army major flying that machine and the time was somewhere mid 80's in the US.

So---one must not assume the export versions are maybe of lower quality---. 

Export versions are what the buyer wants.

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## Salza

Yasser76 said:


> Yup, and just as importantly for the first time in 70 years it pretty much ends the American strangle hold on the PAF....


That strangle hold already got weaken with JF17 thunder program.

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## SQ8

Some of the team at the signing ceremony has been visitors/residents at Chengdu since 2004 and seen/evaluated the J-10 through all its variations and at times provided some input and advice based on the JF-17. They also have seen a lot of what Chengdu is upto besides the known projects as well but as is the tight relationship between the two they keep generally quiet about it.

As far as the PL-15E range is concerned, I would not consider this to be the PL-15E advertised because there is a batch of PL-15s straight from PLAAF stock that was sent to Pakistan sitting as well with the idea that the PAF will fire at ANY IAF asset first in BVR. These PL-15Es reflect that requirement as well.

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## Salza

ghazi52 said:


> .
> View attachment 823296
> 
> ....


Why this signing ceremony was not revealed on jun25 itself


----------



## sahureka2



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## The Terminator

Thrust_Vector998 said:


> https://fb.watch/bGzGvXOGaK/
> 
> *Just a week into their arrival and we already have Go-Pro Footage!*


Come on show us the cockpit. I wanna see those LCD screens and HUD from inside!

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## Scorpiooo

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The 'export' version of the Cobra Gunships that we got from the US in the mid 80's were more advanced than the one US army had at that time.
> 
> That was a face to face disclosure by a US army major flying that machine and the time was somewhere mid 80's in the US.
> 
> So---one must not assume the export versions are maybe of lower quality---.
> 
> Export versions are what the buyer wants.


That may be due Afghan Russian war


----------



## Amaa'n

All lot Indians are having wet dream because they saw E painted on the body of Aircraft and missile


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502698937035202564

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## Scorpiooo

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> All lot Indians are having wet dream because they saw E painted on the body of Aircraft and missile
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502698937035202564


They will be surprised in coming years when 5th gen join PAF

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## mshan44



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## The Terminator

Ghessan said:


> and what about our defence minister, he is a character
> View attachment 822903


He is wondering "how hard it could be to pull 9Gs. I don't have any mass so G's won't effect me much!"  



White privilege said:


> This was just fine, PAF why u do helmet walk??😁🤣
> View attachment 822907


Because they look cute little robots in helmets 🤩



Ghessan said:


> View attachment 822910


Army of cute little robots 🤗

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## The Terminator

kursed said:


> So, anyone who was following PAF... in the 90s.. can you believe your eyes today? =)


Lol at that time even the Chinese themselves wouldn't have believed it 😜

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## The Terminator

Readerdefence said:


> Hi Deino any idea how many Months of training for a pilot to be trained for j10
> looks Like PAF is getting trained on Chinese j10s before 2022
> if possible to answer
> thank you


1 year at least for an experienced pilot. And preferably 2 years.

Get familiar with the fighter, devise tactics specific to that fighter and then practice them in simulated combat missions.

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## MultaniGuy

I am looking forward to seeing the J-10Cs in Pakistani national day.


----------



## The Terminator

Path-Finder said:


> what country is that space station over!
> 
> View attachment 823026


We are monitoring you Amerikana 😜


----------



## Readerdefence

Hi sorry to be little off topic abouT PL15 range 
can any one confirm what USA is offering at the moment 
(not to PAF) to the world with max amram wise 
I’m sure PL15 will be Almost same like it 
another thing need to keep in mind is what USA is developing at the moment for their own sake obviously China won’t be offering to anyone if they already in a position to counter it 
once USA start rolling out long range really a very long range missile. China too will start delivering it to her near & dear ally 
so let’s see and wait until then 
PS this is the first J10c order exported out of country withPL15 China won’t let her reputation spoiled by supplying inferior to something to counter PAF adversary 
thank you


----------



## Rafi

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> All lot Indians are having wet dream because they saw E painted on the body of Aircraft and missile
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502698937035202564



We should encourage them to think like this, I think Pakistan and China would want this too.

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## The Terminator

Boxer1122 said:


> The bottom air-intake kind of makes it a younger and more advanced brother of PAF's -16's. Can anyone post a pic of J-10CP with full loadout with pilots wearing HMD's (interested in seeing BVR missiles especially)? I am digging the holographic HUD.


The one in the ceremony was loaded with the standard Air to Air configuration. Perhaps add a pod on one of the hard points under the intake. 4 BVRs are enough to target 4 planes simultaneously or 2 planes with 2 missiles for each.


----------



## Dil Pakistan

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 823484



The 6 louts


----------



## The Terminator

maverick1977 said:


> The cockpit has a green hue ! ?????? what kind of tainted cockpit is it? benefits besides UV protection ?
> 
> Any chatter in foreign media, specifically from the jealous neighbor ?


A lot of chatter and noise. Trying to prove how Rafale is much superior to the Chinese J-10C. Rafale ghaatak, or J-10C bs naatak.

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## Scorpiooo

The Terminator said:


> A lot of chatter and noise. Trying to prove how Rafale is much superior to the Chinese J-10C. Rafale ghaatak, or J-10C bs naatak.


Offcouse Rafale is better then J10 but its fate also one BRV kill in the end


----------



## Zibago

qwerrty said:


> why are they speaking in english?


A colonial hangover that is hard to get rid off

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## Bossman

ghazi52 said:


> ..
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502567299324080134.....


Good speech, was originally not meant for public consumption but shows the chief's vision. He is no fighter jock but has a strategic vision, which is needed at his level.


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## The Terminator

NA71 said:


> dear members watch at 18:38 to 41 the Air Chief Gestures were direct threats to India....


I was surprised too when I watched the video for the first time that what really the ACM is doing there on national TV 😱

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## Bossman

The Terminator said:


> NUST!
> 
> 
> TAI+NUST bromance! 😜


Not from this guy, he most probably thinks Pakistanis are not capable.I don't see much about Turkish AESAs in the public domain.


----------



## Zibago

siegecrossbow said:


> Indeed. Pakistan has first hand knowledge of Rafale through joint training with Qatar, with rumors of pilots even flying in the aircraft. They should know how J-10C stacks up better than keyboard warriors.


Also the thing about Rafael in use of India is they are very VERY expensive too 
Some figures put per unit cost with Indian configurations at 130 million per unit and in capabilities its not that different from J-10

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## The Terminator

HttpError said:


> The next big logical step should be to have a twin-engine jet in our fleet. I was wondering if there could be another version of J10C with the dual engine? If it is a possibility? @Deino @beijingwalker @siegecrossbow


Yes there is already one called J-11B


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## Bossman

The Terminator said:


> I was surprised too when I watched the video for the first time that what really the ACM is doing there national TV 😱


are you referring to what he did at 18.43. I don't think he realized what he was doing but I am glad he did what he did as it is a clear message what we did and would like keep doing to our neighbors to the east. Can someone edit this part and post it. It will go viral.



Zibago said:


> Also the thing about Rafael in use of India is they are very VERY expensive too
> Some figures put per unit cost with Indian configurations at 130 million per unit and in capabilities its not that different from J-10


the six J10Cs that we saw are equal to 2 Rafale. Thank you India for letting Frenchmen take long vacations, have good health care and pension.

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## The Terminator

Bossman said:


> are you referring to what he did at 18.43. I don't think he realized what he was doing but I am glad he did what he did as it is a clear message what we did and would like keep doing our neighbors to the east. Can someone edit this part and post it. It will go viral.
> 
> 
> the six J10Cs that we saw are equal to 2 Rafale. Thank you India for letting Frenchmen take long vacations, have good health care and pension.


Probably refreshing the memories of Operation swift retort there and expressing that how we would do it again with them the next time zra geela krk

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## TsAr

Dazzler said:


> Missile shipments PAF received post Swift Retort are not E models. China developed and marketed the E models after that, at Zhuhai Airshow' 21to be precise. Ours are different as they are not standard export models.


People forget most of the stuff we get from china is modified according to our requirements

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## siegecrossbow

While we are all giddy with excitement, let's not forget Dr. Song Wencong (1930-2016) for defying all odds and making J-10 possible.

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## farok84

J-10C Induction Ceremony - 11 March, 2022​

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## TsAr

Deino said:


> NDR Info - Die Nachrichten für den Norden
> 
> 
> Die Nachrichten für den Norden: Das ist NDR Info - im Fernsehen, Radio, Web und als App. Außerdem: Kommentare und exklusive Recherchen, Radio im Livestream und aktuelle Videos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ndr.de


If you don't mind me asking, what do you teach?


----------



## siegecrossbow

TsAr said:


> If you don't mind me asking, what do you teach?



Birds and bees. By that I mean falcons and bumblebees/africanized honey bees etc.

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## sahureka2



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## The Terminator

The rumored difference of E variant as per Turkey:






Don't know it's authenticity. Should be taken with a rock of salt as reporting media is Indian. The video says that exported E variant can't be used against Turkey.


Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> Bhai gustaakhi muaaf ho maine mazaak kiya tha.. But I think no one knows the difference here and if someone he will never share this openly. However, I think there won't be any big difference between both of these missiles.


----------



## lightning F57

The Terminator said:


> The rumored difference of E variant as per Turkey:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know it's authenticity. Should be taken with a rock of salt as reporting media is Indian. The video says that exported E variant can't be used against Turkey.


Most exporters would probably like something like a kill switch. Not an issue with Pak, both are brotherly countries.

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## The Terminator

ZY-CN-CA said:


> this one is 2005 WS-10 documentary on it's development


Can someone decrypt this video so general public can understand it!




MM_Haider said:


> I'm talking about future.. 3/4 decade old F-16 will retire one day and we will end up with Chinese machines only.. it will definitely impact our historic air superiority on India..


Bro by that time those F-16s would be as effective as Abhinandan's mighty MiG-21 bison was. Super powers are currently going for 6th Gen and by that time we would have a considerable fleet of 5th Gen fighters or even 6th Gen ones. F-16 is soon going to be history so is the thunder and dragon. Tech is accelerating exponentially.

The era of singularity was predicted to be around 2040 many decades ago by a respectable University in the US. So may be by that time AI and machines would have taken over the control anyways


----------



## The Terminator

iLION12345_1 said:


> We’re not. We got the PL-15E because it’s the export version of the PL-15, meant for, you guessed it, export. Pakistan is a foreign country, it gets the export version.
> 
> It’s just that too many Pakistanis think missile ranges actually mean something (they don’t) or that the export missiles are somehow significantly weaker than the Chinese variants without understanding how missiles actually work. It’s just disappointing how little people research before leaving comments like that.


IMHO The purpose of export variants is to protect the technology and crucial info against hostile espionage. So there would be some steps taken to secure the codes and also change certain design features to make it difficult to open/extract crucial info or reverse engineer/modify the exported model etc. 

If the missile is of same shape and size then reducing it's motors or propellant significantly would screw the whole aerodynamic balance of the missile. Tech is more sensitive than just some range numbers and general physical capability.


----------



## Scorpiooo

The Terminator said:


> The rumored difference of E variant as per Turkey:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know it's authenticity. Should be taken with a rock of salt as reporting media is Indian. The video says that exported E variant can't be used against Turkey.


If true then nothing wrong in it, way they allow there own origin weapons to be used against them


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Deino

TsAr said:


> If you don't mind me asking, what do you teach?



I studied and made my exams in Chemistry, Sports and Geography and currently at school I tach Chemistry, nature Science and sports only

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## [--Leo--]

Any cockpit picture of Pakistani version J-10C?


----------



## tphuang

MM_Haider said:


> I'm talking about future.. 3/4 decade old F-16 will retire one day and we will end up with Chinese machines only.. it will definitely impact our historic air superiority on India..


hmm, you are going to have access to more advanced aircraft than you ever would have through Western channels. Right now, we have 2 countries that have produced 5th generation aircraft. By early 2030s, those same 2 countries will be producing 6th generation aircraft. It seems like PAF is getting a pretty good deal to have access to close to the latest aircraft from one of these 2 countries.



blain2 said:


> Indians claim Chinese HW to be inferior. However, this is despite the fact that Indians on their own can make nothing and rely on bought "off the shelf" capabilities in all spheres to compete with China and Pakistan.


Think about it this way. IAF has no realistic path to a true 5th generation aircraft in the next 5 years and maybe not even the next 10 years. Su-57 is not a real stealth aircraft. F-35 won't be available to IAF unless India gives up on its neutral foreign policy positions and give up Russian military hardware. As such, Rafale is the best aircraft they will have for the foreseeable future.

On the other hand, either J-20 or FC-31 will be available to PAF in a few years. India will indeed be facing a lot of pressures.

There are certain problems that even having a lot of money can't solve. India has that right now.


SQ8 said:


> Some of the team at the signing ceremony has been visitors/residents at Chengdu since 2004 and seen/evaluated the J-10 through all its variations and at times provided some input and advice based on the JF-17. They also have seen a lot of what Chengdu is upto besides the known projects as well but as is the tight relationship between the two they keep generally quiet about it.
> 
> As far as the PL-15E range is concerned, I would not consider this to be the PL-15E advertised because there is a batch of PL-15s straight from PLAAF stock that was sent to Pakistan sitting as well with the idea that the PAF will fire at ANY IAF asset first in BVR. These PL-15Es reflect that requirement as well.


Sure, I think people should not get obsessed of designations. We do not know the differences between the version PAF got vs the one PLAF has. There could be some differences, but that doesn't mean one system is necessarily better or worse. Just different.



Zibago said:


> Also the thing about Rafael in use of India is they are very VERY expensive too
> Some figures put per unit cost with Indian configurations at 130 million per unit and in capabilities its not that different from J-10











Rafale deal controversy - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




actually India paid over $200 million per Rafale.

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## The Terminator

maverick1977 said:


> I cant wait to see the pictures of F16 and J10C side by side.


In a beauty contest 😍


----------



## jaybird

The Terminator said:


> I was surprised too when I watched the video for the first time that what really the ACM is doing there national TV 😱


Like this? 😆

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## Bossman

jaybird said:


> Like this? 😆
> View attachment 823616


You missed the best part a few second earlier with his closed fist 🤛 Please add that

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## The Terminator

Salza said:


> Why this signing ceremony was not revealed on jun25 itself


The answer to your question is:
Why they released this video just now? 

* Hint: apart from the Pindi Boy everything was going smoothly till date.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## jaybird

Bossman said:


> You missed the best part a few second earlier with his closed fist 🤛 Please add that


Sorry, I missed the good point.

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## Raider 21

siegecrossbow said:


> While we are all giddy with excitement, let's not forget Dr. Song Wencong (1930-2016) for defying all odds and making J-10 possible.
> 
> View attachment 823589


Great achievements for sure. IAI as well


Is the J-10 Chinese or Israeli?





Deino said:


> I studied and made my exams in Chemistry, Sports and Geography and currently at school I tach Chemistry, nature Science and sports only


Good for you sir

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## Bossman

jaybird said:


> Sorry, I missed the good point.
> View attachment 823629


Love it, thanks

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## TsAr

Deino said:


> I studied and made my exams in Chemistry, Sports and Geography and currently at school I tach Chemistry, nature Science and sports only


For a chemistry teacher you know quite a lot on defense matters, is this your passion?

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## Amaa'n



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## MastanKhan

Scorpiooo said:


> That may be due Afghan Russian war


Hi,


At that time---that was the version of the Gunship coming off the assembly line.


----------



## Big_bud

rAli said:


> Some folks will never be happy. I had a smile on my face the whole day yesterday thinking how long have we waited for this. Induction of J-10C into PAF is a grace from Allah SWT. PM, all service chiefs and federal ministers were present to celebrate but folks here are crying about why is there an 'E' at the end of the name...nuff said indeed.



They are absolute retards. Some might be Indians posing to be Pakistanis trying their usual bullshit. Screw them all. They are all pathetic losers in real life.



tphuang said:


> Take it easy people. At worst, pl15e has slightly worse kinetic performance than pl15. It is still a really long ranged aam with nez that's probably well north of 50km against rafale. How much longer do you need than that?
> 
> More importantly, it is probably the only aam in the world using aesa seeker which makes it more likely to lock on to target and be less effected by fighter ecm. Meteor doesn't have that. Amraam doesn't have that. That's a huge difference maker.
> 
> I am really happy about all these high quality photos coming out. You can see how good the build quality of j10c is. Much better than earlier Chinese aircraft. Looks like they benefited from j20 production advancement at cac.



Yes, the build quality does appear to be more refined. I was noticing that the rivets look smaller and neater as compared to JF17. But then maybe they look smaller because the panels themselves are larger on J10c as compared to jf17 which is much smaller in size. Nonetheless, J10c does look pleasing and well built to the eye.

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## MultaniGuy

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> View attachment 823639


Nice photograph.

Good to see J-10Cs in PAF's hands.


----------



## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> I studied and made my exams in Chemistry, Sports and Geography and currently at school I tach Chemistry, nature Science and sports only


Hi,

So as you stated earlier, you are a like a 8th to 10th grade teacher---?


----------



## Ali_Baba

One observation from the induction ceremony is that the colour of the chute used to slow down the J10CE after landing is green/white. Not sure what colour they are for the Chinese versions and if the colour was a custom request by the PAF?


----------



## ahtan_china

Ali_Baba said:


> One observation from the induction ceremony is that the colour of the chute used to slow down the J10CE after landing is green/white. Not sure what colour they are for the Chinese versions and if the colour was a custom request by the PAF?


PLAAF version

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## Beast

A Chinese video just showing PAF J-10CE

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## HuangHe

HttpError said:


> The next big logical step should be to have a twin-engine jet in our fleet. I was wondering if there could be another version of J10C with the dual engine? If it is a possibility? @Deino @beijingwalker @siegecrossbow


J10 will always be a single engine plane. If PAF wants bigger toy, they can ask J16, or J31.



HttpError said:


> The next big logical step should be to have a twin-engine jet in our fleet. I was wondering if there could be another version of J10C with the dual engine? If it is a possibility? @Deino @beijingwalker @siegecrossbow


J10 will always be a single engine plane. If PAF wants bigger toy, they can ask J16, or J31.


----------



## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> So as you stated earlier, you are a like a 8th to 10th grade teacher---?




According to the German school system it's the 5th to 12th grade. Kids start usually at the age of 6 in "Klasse 1" (grade 1) until "Klasse 4 (grade 4) at the primary school. After that you can decide and depending type of school you visit school for 8-9 years - aka grade 8-12 or 5-13 - until you make your "Abitur", which is the higher level of education that certificates you of "university entrance qualification"



ahtan_china said:


> PLAAF version
> 
> View attachment 823666




But that the old J-10A version

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## Aliph Ahmed

Chak Bamu said:


> For a while I also thought that J-10's performance gap with JF-17 was not big enough to justify a buy decision.


How big is the difference?


----------



## Deino

By the way just a quick question since some media outlet say so: ... were they really inducted into the service’s No. 15 ‘Cobras’ Squadron or just unveiled to the public?


----------



## SQ8

Deino said:


> By the way just a quick question since some media outlet say so: ... were they really inducted into the service’s No. 15 ‘Cobras’ Squadron or just unveiled to the public?


Depends on what you define as induction. They are now part of 15sq which will continue working up on the aircraft. Still a long way to go in terms of logistics, operational integration and the nitty gritty.

But, they can go to war today if needed even if not fully integrated into the battle plan.
Will I call it an IOC? Not sure

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## HuangHe

sheik said:


> PL15E and PL10E


PL15E is the export version of PL15. The range is reduced from 200km to 145km.

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## Deino

SQ8 said:


> Depends on what you define as induction. They are now part of 15sq which will continue working up on the aircraft. Still a long way to go in terms of logistics, operational integration and the nitty gritty.
> 
> But, they can go to war today if needed even if not fully integrated into the battle plan.
> Will I call it an IOC? Not sure



Hmm? My point is, are they now indeed already part of the 15th Squadron or was it more a formal or official induction like a "welcome to Pakistan and here we are"! ceremony?


----------



## Zarvan

Deino said:


> Hmm? My point is, are they now indeed already part of the 15th Squadron or was it more a formal or official induction like a "welcome to Pakistan and here we are"! ceremony?


It was a welcome ceremony but they are becoming part of 15th squadron which co incidentally Air Chief had also headed in his young days.

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## ahtan_china

Deino said:


> According to the German school system it's the 5th to 12th grade. Kids start usually at the age of 6 in "Klasse 1" (grade 1) until "Klasse 4 (grade 4) at the primary school. After that you can decide and depending type of school you visit school for 8-9 years - aka grade 8-12 or 5-13 - until you make your "Abitur", which is the higher level of education that certificates you of "university entrance qualification"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that the old J-10A version


This guy will have a look the parachute of PLAAF.

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## Bleek

HuangHe said:


> PL15E is the export version of PL15. The range is reduced from 200km to 145km.


I remember some Chinese members stating its range at 300km lol


----------



## Deino

Bleek said:


> I remember some Chinese members stating its range at 300km lol




But that's always only since some confuse the PL-15 with the PL-2X or whatever its designation is.

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## Scorpiooo

Story end officially we got E variant with J10 which cannot be undone, so we have to accept it.

Note : unofficial induction of actual variant if possible, but we will not know untill used



Deino said:


> But that's always only since some confuse the PL-15 with the PL-2X or whatever its designation is.


PL21/pl 2x has any E version yet ot not

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## The Terminator

I have heard from some western that AESA seeker of that small size like in PL-15 is worse in performance than the regular seekers but has better ECCM capabilities? @Deino


----------



## jaybird

Bleek said:


> I remember some Chinese members stating its range at 300km lol


They are confusing PL-15 with this huge unknown PL-XX aam or PL-21 that is supposedly with the range of 300KM-400KM kind of comparable to Russian R-37 and U.S AIM-260. PL-15 never claimed 300KM range by the Chinese. Most guess it was around 200KM.

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## Bleek

jaybird said:


> They are confusing PL-15 with this huge unknown PL-XX aam or PL-21 that is supposedly with the range of 300KM-400KM kind of comparable to Russian R-37 and U.S AIM-260. PL-15 never claimed 300KM range by the Chinese. Most guess it was around 200KM.
> View attachment 823707


I think it's also because of Wikipedia 

It states 200 - 300 KM

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## Zarvan

Bleek said:


> I remember some Chinese members stating its range at 300km lol


China never declares real range. Even if they are writing something on the card don't believe it. That is just for show to MTCR and other organizations. And that is how it should be. Real deal is always different. Pakistan if has gone for PL 15 means its range is 200 KM and more. Pakistan won't go for PL 15 until Pakistan is sure the range matches or exceeds that of Meteor.

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## Bleek

Zarvan said:


> China never declares real range. Even if they are writing something on the card don't believe it. That is just for show to MTCR and other organizations. And that is how it should be. Real deal is always different. Pakistan if has gone for PL 15 means its range is 200 KM and more. Pakistan won't go for PL 15 until Pakistan is sure the range matches or exceeds that of Meteor.


Nice

I think there should be a separate missile thread, they are just as important as the aircraft itself

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## GumNaam

Zarvan said:


> China never declares real range. Even if they are writing something on the card don't believe it. That is just for show to MTCR and other organizations. And that is how it should be. Real deal is always different. Pakistan if has gone for PL 15 means its range is 200 KM and more. Pakistan won't go for PL 15 until Pakistan is sure the range matches or exceeds that of Meteor.


not that simple...200km range is believable for a target with a large RCS, maybe less for targets with a small RCS. Having said that, the million dollar question is that how are the J10C AESA radars and the PL15 AESA radars are at picking up and locking onto targets with a small RCS.

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## leviathan

Bleek said:


> I remember some Chinese members stating its range at 300km lol


Seems so far the only difference for PL-15 and PL-15E is the DUAL-PULSE SOLID ROCKET MOTOR. PL-15 has a ability to adjust the pluse. At 30sec interval, the maximum range will be 185km. PL-15E with one burn have 145km.

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## Ghessan

Readerdefence said:


> Hi sorry to be little off topic abouT PL15 range
> can any one confirm what USA is offering at the moment
> (not to PAF) to the world with max amram wise
> I’m sure PL15 will be Almost same like it
> another thing need to keep in mind is what USA is developing at the moment for their own sake obviously China won’t be offering to anyone if they already in a position to counter it
> once USA start rolling out long range really a very long range missile. China too will start delivering it to her near & dear ally
> so let’s see and wait until then
> PS this is the first J10c order exported out of country withPL15 China won’t let her reputation spoiled by supplying inferior to something to counter PAF adversary
> thank you


with US geopolitical interests and conflicts in regions and imposing wars provide opportunities for NATO countries to induct their assets into those conflict zones and test their capabilities but no challenging environment from opposing airforces.
on the other hand it was Israel once with such scenarios who has now successfully negate those challenges again with geopolitics and diplomacy.
what we are left with is Indo-Pak conflicts which are going nowhere in the near future, provides opportunity to throw assets at each other.
who would not want their technology applied, tested and improved upon in such an environment which gives a lot of information (swift retort)
i assume PAF has best asset in the form of J-10 with all the goodies came along. Let's wait for an adventure and we all will see.
China has for the first time deliver an air asset to another country that it would love to see performing to excel.


----------



## HuangHe

Aesterix said:


> Disappointed with PAF getting PL-15E which has reduced range, and not the full range version.


There is a technology on PL15 even American doesn’t have. China want to keep the secret secured.


----------



## SABRE

qwerrty said:


> why are they speaking in english?



They are speaking to certain other countries, not Pakistan.


----------



## Ghessan

jaybird said:


> Sorry, I missed the good point.
> View attachment 823629


PM: lekin rafael ager .....
ACM: fikar na karein PM saab, aisa danda dein gaye wapis nahin jaye ga ...

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## leviathan

GumNaam said:


> not that simple...200km range is believable for a target with a large RCS, maybe less for targets with a small RCS. Having said that, the million dollar question is that how are the J10C AESA radars and the PL15 AESA radars are at picking up and locking onto targets with a small RCS.


I think you folks put too much attention into individual weapon. Today's air war is the system vs. system. 

Pakistan chooses a full package of Chinese AEW&C, radar, fighter and air defence missile. I'm sure Pakistan brought the data link that can link everything up. In an air skirmish, AEW&C detect and track enemy plane. JF-17/J10C keep a safe distance and position them in best BVR position and went in. In the entire process, JF-17/J10C doesn't even need to turn on its radar at all. AEW&C able to control and fire pl15. The fighter is just a weapon delivery platform.

A upgrade version for that is PLAAF's next gen air combat system. (Same as US airforce with F35)
In this system, AEW&C is act like eye and brain from a safe distance. It search and tracks the enemy movement and feed the data into the J20S and its UAV gang.
The stealth gang is act like fists that you can't see them until it about to hit your face. J20s with its radar turn off for maxmiun stealth will only be a front line data hub to control the UAV to do the air combat. And a fearless high intelligent UAV that can easily do 10G maneuver will be a nightmare for any fighter.












On the other side, a Russia AEW&C with French fighter and missile. The infomation exchange between those two probably not better than you play a COD with your teammate...

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## White privilege

So what's that opening?? Did they forget to _put a lid _on it or something??😁


----------



## Windjammer



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## Tom_Cruise

Deino said:


> Here a bit larger:
> 
> View attachment 822866



Have you/anyone got each individual shot?


----------



## sahureka2



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## nomi007

Cant understand why Indians are making fun of PL-15. They are claiming we got Pl-15E variant not PLAAF variant which ranges 200kms to 300kms.

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## truthseeker2010

Zarvan said:


> It was a welcome ceremony but they are becoming part of 15th squadron which co incidentally Air Chief had also headed in his young days.



that's no coincidence, that's a tradition.

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## truthseeker2010

tphuang said:


> Think about it this way. IAF has no realistic path to a true 5th generation aircraft in the next 5 years and maybe not even the next 10 years. Su-57 is not a real stealth aircraft. F-35 won't be available to IAF unless India gives up on its neutral foreign policy positions and give up Russian military hardware. As such, Rafale is the best aircraft they will have for the foreseeable future.
> 
> On the other hand, either J-20 or FC-31 will be available to PAF in a few years. India will indeed be facing a lot of pressures.
> 
> There are certain problems that even having a lot of money can't solve. India has that right now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rafale deal controversy - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> actually India paid over $200 million per Rafale.



That is something that baffles me, like IAF chief himself said, even if everything goes to plan, they will be at 35 squadrons by next decade, they are already at 30-31 now, with all the retirements of Mig-29, M2000, Jag, M21, and planned inductions of Tejas More rafales (definitely after J-10) and FGFA. they will still be at marginally more number aircraft of around 700 compared to around 650 today. And we are talking about 15 years down the line at least.

There is something seriously wrong with IAF and their domestic production and procurement or am i missing something. Like money has not been an issue and indian economy would be much bigger in future.

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## Hallian_Khan

jaybird said:


> Sorry, I missed the good point.
> View attachment 823629


Air Chief explaining What J10C will do to Pakistan’s Enemy 😁

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## ahtan_china

J-10A & J-10C

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## raja786

jaybird said:


> Sorry, I missed the good point.
> View attachment 823629


Slow the video on fist action.

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## ziaulislam

nomi007 said:


> Cant understand why Indians are making fun of PL-15. They are claiming we got Pl-15E variant not PLAAF variant which ranges 200kms to 300kms.


Sure just like aim120 which will automatically become inactivated so will the PL-15

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## raja786

nomi007 said:


> Cant understand why Indians are making fun of PL-15. They are claiming we got Pl-15E variant not PLAAF variant which ranges 200kms to 300kms.


Don't bother with that kind of mentality and stop paying attention to it. It's same as PAK F16s can't be used against India, they have got kill switch in them, Su30mki is mini AWAC, JF17 is junk fighter etc.. what do you aspect from them to cheer our toys. Our boys know what they doing and what Indians playing at. These are the best times of our history where our forces getting top of the range toys. I don't know if you followed any thing in 90s they were the depressing times, now the tables have turned. So chill out.

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## DrWatson775

Aesterix said:


> Disappointed with PAF getting PL-15E which has reduced range, and not the full range version.


PAF will always ensure they have a longer stick


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## ziaulislam

J10 seems to be focused on air to air rolw for now


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## Scorpiooo

ziaulislam said:


> J10 seems to be focused on air to air rolw for now


They are handed over to sqr in replacement of mirages dedicated for a to g role

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## leviathan

ahtan_china said:


> J-10A & J-10C
> 
> View attachment 823752
> View attachment 823753


Didn't realize that J-10A doesn't even have IRST. The DSI really made a big difference in turns of weight, RSP and air dynamic...


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## siegecrossbow

White privilege said:


> So what's that opening?? Did they forget to _put a lid _on it or something??😁
> View attachment 823728


Either APU or chaff dispenser.


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## Thrust_Vector998

*PAF giving a truly Jaw-Dropping media projection to the J-10s!
I'm lovin' it🇵🇰*

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## m52k85

Rafi said:


> I'm just sick of the whinning crying little teenage bitches.
> 
> Yesterday was a historic day for our Airforce, it has got capabilities and assets that few in the world have outside much more rich and powerful countries.
> 
> The PAF firmly believes that it has an "edge" in BVR, regarding the principle adversary, they have not come up with this arbitrarily, Air Intelligence using various parameters including real life ones, has accumulated facts on the ground for this conclusion.
> 
> I could say alot more about this, but I won't...........nuff said.


The thing about whinning teenagers is that they see an "E" and get all jittery. And because they are teenagers if you ask them what the "P" meant when PAF got Mirages in the 70s and 80s or for that matter how no F-16s from the same block given to different countries are the same in-terms of softwares they will have no idea. Even Aim-9L/Ms the US has supplied to various countries have minor differences (well documented in opensource)

Suffice to say it is more prudent to look at the "E" as a mod than a downgrade.

Finally, kids can only grasp 'range' from the all the things that make up an AAM. Ask them about 'Basket', 'Firing Modes', 'DL-specs' etc. they wont have much to say. All these things could be tweeked in an "E" mod while keep the arbitary 'Range' parameters constant.



Thrust_Vector998 said:


> *PAF giving a truly Jaw-Dropping media projection to the J-10s!
> I'm lovin' it🇵🇰*


And I remember someone saying dont expect anymore pictures when the birds get to Pakistan at the time the first pics came out of China last month!

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## shofotolavski

luciferdd said:


> That's not importance,the key point is they(the us gov) don't trust you and they prefer India than you,know?


Apart from the 1961 treaty with North Korea, China has not signed any treaty with any other country that contains military content
reason
1. China advocates maintaining neutrality in the Cold War and uniting third world countries to oppose imperialism and hegemonism
2. After the end of the Cold War, China believes that a strong bilateral relationship should not be unequal. If there is a military alliance, there will inevitably be one country that dominates, which is not good for exchanges in peacetime

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## m52k85

Salza said:


> Why this signing ceremony was not revealed on jun25 itself


For superior dhothi damping effect

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## raja786

In regards with questions arising OH it's export version and somehow the capability will be reduced on bvr or jet itself should be put to rest As China will never give anything less capable or we will accept less capable systems putting our security on line or China putting credibility online. Since 27th February show between India and Pakistan it was F16 and AMRAM got proven in modern day air combat against Su30mki M2000 and Mig. China felt left behind and there was strong feelings to arm PAF with there best systems so Chinese Jets and Missiles can be battle proven, I don't think there's any money factor involved in current procurement at best it's to show there metal. 
As everyone knows this part of the world can get hot any given day without any advance notice as we have hot border and something is always cooking. 
I am not warmongering type of individual but love to see Paf with free hand. If that ever happens we will see alot of Russian bulky stuff falling around like flies. And in that process if we get to down Rafael every cent spent or given to PAF by China will be payed back with interest. That will be the end of western systems supremacy.

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## ghazi52

....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502983786849472513.........

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## SABRE

Thrust_Vector998 said:


> *PAF giving a truly Jaw-Dropping media projection to the J-10s!
> I'm lovin' it🇵🇰*



They should lend this camera to PTV

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## Waterboy

Noob question, but can we integrate aselpod and spanish jammer on J-10?


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## siegecrossbow

Thrust_Vector998 said:


> *PAF giving a truly Jaw-Dropping media projection to the J-10s!
> I'm lovin' it🇵🇰*



Video is great, but they did incorporate some of the J-10B TVC footage from Zhuhai 2018 in it! Hate to disappoint many people here but J-10C is not capable of post stall maneuvers.

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## m52k85

Deino said:


> Hmm? My point is, are they now indeed already part of the 15th Squadron or was it more a formal or official induction like a "welcome to Pakistan and here we are"! ceremony?


No not just welcome but welcome to no.15. Half the commentary was about the accomplishments of No.15 and how it will continue to serve Pakistan using this jet.



ahtan_china said:


> J-10A & J-10C
> 
> View attachment 823752
> View attachment 823753


@SQ8 comparing these two pics would you say the skin of the 'C' is glued? I dont see many rivets like in the 'A'.

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## TopGun786

siegecrossbow said:


> Video is great, but they did incorporate some of the J-10B TVC footage from Zhuhai 2018 in it! Hate to disappoint many people here but J-10C is not capable of post stall maneuvers.


I noticed too.


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## m52k85

@Raider 21 and other people, just out of interest, would you know which aircraft WC Imtiaz and his entourage (picutred above) are coming from?

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## ghazi52

.........

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502984783319605254............

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## Beast

The Terminator said:


> I have heard from some western that AESA seeker of that small size like in PL-15 is worse in performance than the regular seekers but has better ECCM capabilities? @Deino


Yes.. From western. They will always claim they are best and Chinese no good. You think western knows better than Chinese?

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## tphuang

The Terminator said:


> I have heard from some western that AESA seeker of that small size like in PL-15 is worse in performance than the regular seekers but has better ECCM capabilities? @Deino


In general, aesa technology is more advanced. It's better at eccm, harder to get picked up by opposing maw and should generate more power for longer track range. As such, against more advanced target aircraft, it should have a better chance of tracking them at range. There were some earlier aesa radar (like the one Japanese f2) that didn't perform as well as mechanical scanned radar, but that's probably because the developers lacked experience in building modern radar. There is no evidence that chinas avionics industry lack experience in this area. Maybe some westerners are just alarmed by pl15's capabilities. When it first came out, this really rang alarms in us military establishment. Even now, the stated goals of USAF with new project is to surpass pl15. Clearly, they are worried about the range and seeker of the latest aim120d vs pl15.

The problem for them is that china is also developing new aam with ramjet propulsion. As such, even if aim260 becomes better than pl15, the next generation Chinese long range aam will have advantages.

The fact that china has developed the first aesa seeker on aam means that it will have more experience in this area and has a leg up in future seekers also.


GumNaam said:


> not that simple...200km range is believable for a target with a large RCS, maybe less for targets with a small RCS. Having said that, the million dollar question is that how are the J10C AESA radars and the PL15 AESA radars are at picking up and locking onto targets with a small RCS.


Well iaf doesn't have anything with small rcs. J10c radar is good enough that rafale ew suite shouldn't be able to confuse it from far out. Maybe it won't be able to track it from 100 km out consistently. But it should be able to do this consistently from beyond pl15 nez. And I would bet on pl15 seeker over meteor any day of the week. Aesa technology is just better.


truthseeker2010 said:


> That is something that baffles me, like IAF chief himself said, even if everything goes to plan, they will be at 35 squadrons by next decade, they are already at 30-31 now, with all the retirements of Mig-29, M2000, Jag, M21, and planned inductions of Tejas More rafales (definitely after J-10) and FGFA. they will still be at marginally more number aircraft of around 700 compared to around 650 today. And we are talking about 15 years down the line at least.
> 
> There is something seriously wrong with IAF and their domestic production and procurement or am i missing something. Like money has not been an issue and indian economy would be much bigger in future.


If you are trying to be a great power, then you need to have your own domestic military industrial complex. All the money in the world will not get you modern military hardware unless you can build it yourself. The continued incompetence of India's defense industry will mean Pakistan will have technological advantage over them for many years to come.

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## Thrust_Vector998

m52k85 said:


> @Raider 21 and other people, just out of interest, would you know which aircraft WC Imtiaz and his entourage (picutred above) are coming from?


If I'm not wrong, he's from the Viper😉


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## redgriffin

ahtan_china said:


> J-10A & J-10C
> 
> View attachment 823752
> View attachment 823753


Regardless of capability, I've always thought of the J-10A as the best of the lot (in terms of looks). Easily rivals the Viper in the aggression exuded by its design. The B & C honestly from front on look like an F-32 which has had gastric banding done.🤪

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## siegecrossbow

tphuang said:


> In general, aesa technology is more advanced. It's better at eccm, harder to get picked up by opposing maw and should generate more power for longer track range. As such, against more advanced target aircraft, it should have a better chance of tracking them at range. There were some earlier aesa radar (like the one Japanese f2) that didn't perform as well as mechanical scanned radar, but that's probably because the developers lacked experience in building modern radar. There is no evidence that chinas avionics industry lack experience in this area. Maybe some westerners are just alarmed by pl15's capabilities. When it first came out, this really rang alarms in us military establishment. Even now, the stated goals of USAF with new project is to surpass pl15. Clearly, they are worried about the range and seeker of the latest aim120d vs pl15.
> 
> The problem for them is that china is also developing new aam with ramjet propulsion. As such, even if aim260 becomes better than pl15, the next generation Chinese long range aam will have advantages.
> 
> The fact that china has developed the first aesa seeker on aam means that it will have more experience in this area and has a leg up in future seekers also.
> 
> *Well iaf doesn't have anything with small rc*s. J10c radar is good enough that rafale ew suite shouldn't be able to confuse it from far out. Maybe it won't be able to track it from 100 km out consistently. But it should be able to do this consistently from beyond pl15 nez. And I would bet on pl15 seeker over meteor any day of the week. Aesa technology is just better.
> 
> If you are trying to be a great power, then you need to have your own domestic military industrial complex. All the money in the world will not get you modern military hardware unless you can build it yourself. The continued incompetence of India's defense industry will mean Pakistan will have technological advantage over them for many years to come.



I think that depends on what you define as low RCS. Rafale is not true stealth, but it has one of the lowest RCS of any fourth gen. It is the only fourth generation aircraft to incorporate sawtooth panels, something that not even Su-57 has achieved.

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## Jinn Baba

Thrust_Vector998 said:


> *PAF giving a truly Jaw-Dropping media projection to the J-10s!
> I'm lovin' it🇵🇰*



Wow! Just wow!

ISPR really needs to learn from PAF and this induction! 

I seriously hope the Block 3s get similar unvailing.

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## The Terminator

White privilege said:


> So what's that opening?? Did they forget to _put a lid _on it or something??😁
> View attachment 823728


Countermeasures dispenser chaffs flares

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## Ghessan

Scorpiooo said:


> They are handed over to sqr in replacement of mirages dedicated for a to g role



Well the tweet from DGPR says otherwise.

"With J-10C “Dragon” Omni role fighter in its ranks, PAF retains the first shot BVR capability while maintaining a qualitative edge in the application of Air Power across all domains. The capabilities of the aircraft are showcased in this short video documentry. https://t.co/YgwG18bM93

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## Windjammer



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## PakShaheen79

Great ... PAF. Keeping rolling these cool videos. Next must be some quick launches of PL-10E and PL-15Es .... along with Block III induction ceremony!


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## Zulfiqar

Deino said:


> Hmm? My point is, are they now indeed already part of the 15th Squadron or was it more a formal or official induction like a "welcome to Pakistan and here we are"! ceremony?




Judging from this video (where he mentions role or 15 Sq) it seems that they will become part of 15th SQ.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502984783319605254
@Trailer23 do look for high res version of the video in this tweet and the tweet above it (for future videos of your channel).

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## White privilege

m52k85 said:


> @Raider 21 and other people, just out of interest, would you know which aircraft WC Imtiaz and his entourage (picutred above) are coming from?


Thank heavens, no 🪖 walk this time.😁🤣

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## truthseeker2010

tphuang said:


> If you are trying to be a great power, then you need to have your own domestic military industrial complex. All the money in the world will not get you modern military hardware unless you can build it yourself. The continued incompetence of India's defense industry will mean Pakistan will have technological advantage over them for many years to come.



In your opinion where do you see IAF in 20 years (in no of squadrons) considering they have made a push for make in india, and their stated goal of 42 squadrons. 

Also considering the fact that post russian ukraine war, there will be a different world. Keeping in mind Indian reliance on russian weapons and its ambition to have western military products and part of Quad or china containment factor for US.


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## ZY-CN-CA

*let you know ,CE* -- Pakistan version mainly improves the formation lights and other lamps, antennas and head up displays, replacing the large field of view diffraction *head up display* and *TK-31 fourth generation lightweight panda helmets*, reducing a data link antenna on the back antenna, changing the position of the missile warning system, replacing the green and white deceleration parachutes, and adopting a new generation of general composite hangers.

The HUD head up display is replaced by the latest third-generation wide angle single-chip diffraction head up display, which is the same as the Xiaolong block 3 fighter just commissioned this year, which is higher than the configuration of the three-chip diffraction head up display used in the early batch of j-10c. This head up display is the latest foreign trade diffraction head up display first released at Zhuhai Air Show in 2021. In terms of field of view, it is similar to the Thales cth3022 wide-angle diffraction head up display used by Rafale fighter. It not only highlights the characters clearly, but also supports the night vision picture projection of the yings-ii forward-looking infrared system of foreign trade, making the pilot more comfortable when flying at ultra-low altitude at night.

The weight of TK-31 helmet is 0.94-1.01kg. It is made of carbon fiber. The received collision energy level is 73.5j and the penetration energy level is 23.5j. It can be ejected from the aircraft at a speed below 1100km / h.

hope you like it.↑














* lock enemy aircraft video*

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## maverick1977

The Terminator said:


> Countermeasures dispenser chaffs flares
> 
> View attachment 823780
> 
> 
> View attachment 823781


?????


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## araz

nomi007 said:


> Cant understand why Indians are making fun of PL-15. They are claiming we got Pl-15E variant not PLAAF variant which ranges 200kms to 300kms.


That is their inferiority complex speaking. I was going to write something else but thought it better that we ignore them and instead concentrate on getting ourselves more stronger. 
Our weakest link remains our fragile economy and low reserves which will not allow us any lee way unless we rectify it. We need to put our heads down and concentrate on economic build up for the next 5-10 years. Till such time that we do so we will remain vulnerable to external pressures.
A

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## Deino

The Terminator said:


> Countermeasures dispenser chaffs flares
> 
> View attachment 823780
> 
> 
> View attachment 823781




Nope, those for the J-10 series are located further aft directly behind that strange one but usually covered: IMO it is just an exhaust for something, maybe the APU

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## araz

truthseeker2010 said:


> That is something that baffles me, like IAF chief himself said, even if everything goes to plan, they will be at 35 squadrons by next decade, they are already at 30-31 now, with all the retirements of Mig-29, M2000, Jag, M21, and planned inductions of Tejas More rafales (definitely after J-10) and FGFA. they will still be at marginally more number aircraft of around 700 compared to around 650 today. And we are talking about 15 years down the line at least.
> 
> There is something seriously wrong with IAF and their domestic production and procurement or am i missing something. Like money has not been an issue and indian economy would be much bigger in future.


Lets not concentrate on their woes. We have got plenty of our own and we need some serious focused attention on them. Lets sort our own problems out and leave them to sort their own out
Regards


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## araz

raja786 said:


> Don't bother with that kind of mentality and stop paying attention to it. It's same as PAK F16s can't be used against India, they have got kill switch in them, Su30mki is mini AWAC, JF17 is junk fighter etc.. what do you aspect from them to cheer our toys. Our boys know what they doing and what Indians playing at. These are the best times of our history where our forces getting top of the range toys. I don't know if you followed any thing in 90s they were the depressing times, now the tables have turned. So chill out.


Unlike the 90s China now has many products which have matured and are of international standard. The US remained an untrustworthy ally whereas common strategic goals means that the Chinese are much more in tune with our needs and wipling to help us achieve them. Turkey is also coming on line so it is all looking good. We also have indegenous products which are of good quality and therefore a few of our needs can be met locally as well. 
So a lot of our programmes are coming online to help us.
A

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## Trailer23

Zulfiqar said:


> @Trailer23 do look for high res version of the video in this tweet and the tweet above it (for future videos of your channel).


It was done a couple of mins after it was released.

Don't worry, you're still on my list of Tags once something new is released.

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## araz

Waterboy said:


> Noob question, but can we integrate aselpod and spanish jammer on J-10?


PLAAF will have its own jammers which would be equally capable. If needed we will have the capability to do so in house. 
However with hardware from multiple vendors it sometimes becomes problematic to use the hardware to their best capability. So there may have been a prudent decision to not do so.

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## Yasser76

Amazing that No 5 Sqd and it's Block 52s are no longer PAF's cutting edge.....

Outside of the 36 Rafales, IAF really has no answer to the Block 52/MLU/J-10 combo....

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## jaybird

Deino said:


> Nope, those for the J-10 series are located further aft directly behind that strange one but usually covered: IMO it is just an exhaust for something, maybe the APU
> 
> View attachment 823793
> View attachment 823794


I also think is the APU exhaust. Look at this picture here They even have something cover and connected both the APU and APU exhaust from the outside during the ZhuHai airshow.

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## The Terminator

Deino said:


> Nope, those for the J-10 series are located further aft directly behind that strange one but usually covered: IMO it is just an exhaust for something, maybe the APU
> 
> View attachment 823793
> View attachment 823794


Oh they are so close next to each other. Didn't paid attention to it before

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## raja786

araz said:


> Unlike the 90s China now has many products which have matured and are of international standard. The US remained an untrustworthy ally whereas common strategic goals means that the Chinese are much more in tune with our needs and wipling to help us achieve them. Turkey is also coming on line so it is all looking good. We also have indegenous products which are of good quality and therefore a few of our needs can be met locally as well.
> So a lot of our programmes are coming online to help us.
> A


In regards with China back then they didn't look for quality they were more focused on quantity and that mentality was washed by Pakistan in terms of super 7 project. Chinese are very sensitive in term of pride and they have big ego( not ment to hurt anyone). It was tuff job for our guys back then to bring chines in terms of modernisation of systems. It took 3 decades but surely Chinese are soon surpass western tec.
On other hand I am personally not keen on Turkey because they are standing wrong side of history and they will ditch us when it comes to crunch. We shouldn't rely on turks for anything as they have big influence of Nato. Unless they leave Nato they will keep getting blackmailed but as I understand its not possible because of certain elements, and Turkey is going to get destroyed in near future. 
Our future military build up heavily depends on China and that will also depend on our political situation inland. We need strong leadership who can make stand in world arena otherwise کانپیں ٹانگ جائیں گی۔

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## Yasser76

raja786 said:


> In regards with China back then they didn't look for quality they were more focused on quantity and that mentality was washed by Pakistan in terms of super 7 project. Chinese are very sensitive in term of pride and they have big ego( not ment to hurt anyone). It was tuff job for our guys back then to bring chines in terms of modernisation of systems. It took 3 decades but surely Chinese are soon surpass western tec.
> On other hand I am personally not keen on Turkey because they are standing wrong side of history and they will ditch us when it comes to crunch. We shouldn't rely on turks for anything as they have big influence of Nato. Unless they leave Nato they will keep getting blackmailed but as I understand its not possible because of certain elements, and Turkey is going to get destroyed in near future.
> Our future military build up heavily depends on China and that will also depend on our political situation inland. We need strong leadership who can make stand in world arena otherwise کانپیں ٹانگ جائیں گی۔



Turkey has stood by Pakistan for 70 years, it helped us with supplies in 65 and 71. Odd statement.

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## Rafi

Yasser76 said:


> Turkey has stood by Pakistan for 70 years, it helped us with supplies in 65 and 71. Odd statement.



Beware of injun false flaggers, going after our 2 strategic partners.

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## tphuang

siegecrossbow said:


> I think that depends on what you define as low RCS. Rafale is not true stealth, but it has one of the lowest RCS of any fourth gen. It is the only fourth generation aircraft to incorporate sawtooth panels, something that not even Su-57 has achieved.


Sure, but that advantage goes away the minute you start hanging missiles and fuel tanks outside. As much as I mock su-57 for not being a true 5th generation aircraft, it's RCS will be an order of magnitude lower than any aircraft carrying missiles externally


truthseeker2010 said:


> In your opinion where do you see IAF in 20 years (in no of squadrons) considering they have made a push for make in india, and their stated goal of 42 squadrons.
> 
> Also considering the fact that post russian ukraine war, there will be a different world. Keeping in mind Indian reliance on russian weapons and its ambition to have western military products and part of Quad or china containment factor for US.


Right now, there are basically 4 places you can buy weapons from: US, Europe, Russia and China. India can buy the latest/greatest from Europe and Russia, but not from US/China. With India continuing to stay neutral in the Ukraine conflict, it would be very hard for me to see US providing the latest military hardware like F-35 to India. I think India have seen what it takes to have access to F-35 and other similarly advanced American weapons. You have to be at least 90% aligned with America on foreign adventures and give up your operation sovereignty to America. I don't think it makes sense for India to do that in the long term if it wants to be a respected super power. As such, it just needs to bite the bullet for a good number of years and continue to develop its military industrial complex. Handing money off to the Russians to locally produce MKI was not good for India's domestic industry. Handing more money off to the Russians for the pretense of cooperating on a 5th generation aircraft is not good for India. The result of that is what you have right now.

I think there is no realistic path for India to obtain real 5th generation aircraft capability for the rest of this decade. So, it should spend the minimum money possible on buying more aircraft in the class of Rafale or F-15E or typhoon. Don't worry about locally producing and such. Just buy what you need to meet basic defense need. You are never going to develop a competitive local industry by license producing 2nd tier aircraft from other countries. All that does it drive up cost per aircraft. They need to work spend as much money on MCA development as possible. Spend more money with Safran to develop the next generation engine for MCA. If we get to 2030 and they still don't have 5th generation aircraft, then buying from one of the European projects like the tempest would be the best option. At least with that, they can get an aircraft that in theory is better than the present day version of f35 and j20. India might not get that until late 2030s though. If Russia ever gets su57 development finished, that's the other 2030 option for iaf. But I must warn you rather whether china sells paf j20 or fc31, both aircraft will have stealth and sensor advantage over su57.

In the end, India needs to develop its own 5th gen aircraft. There is no reason it should take longer to do it than turkey.



araz said:


> That is their inferiority complex speaking. I was going to write something else but thought it better that we ignore them and instead concentrate on getting ourselves more stronger.
> Our weakest link remains our fragile economy and low reserves which will not allow us any lee way unless we rectify it. We need to put our heads down and concentrate on economic build up for the next 5-10 years. Till such time that we do so we will remain vulnerable to external pressures.
> A


You have to understand that India is in a terrible position militarily right now. 15 years ago, it could hang its hope on having a more powerful flanker than China. Right now, China has 3 times the number of J-20s as India has with Rafale. And the gap between PLAAF and IAF will continue to increase over the next 10 years. Not only that, the 2nd best systems that China can supply to PAF will be increasingly more advanced than the latest hardware they can get from Western countries. They have no choice but to hope that Rafale can beat J-20 and Su-30MKI can beat J-16/J-10C.

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## raja786

Yasser76 said:


> Amazing that No 5 Sqd and it's Block 52s are no longer PAF's cutting edge.....
> 
> Outside of the 36 Rafales, IAF really has no answer to the Block 52/MLU/J-10 combo....


They still looking for new options and what I have realised in recent climate they will not go to USA unless F35 is offered. Other then that it be silly move by them in terms of embargo and arm twisting by yanks. 
We should thank Allah we are out of that situation where we had to always look over our shoulders.

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## Thrust_Vector998

https://fb.watch/bJR9DDI7Dp/
*Just see who is piloting the BLK52+ and you'll be surprised 😉*

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## mudas777

Stealth said:


> Scene @ race track
> 
> 
> 
> jaldi tasveer keench jani gari ka owner araha hey
> 
> View attachment 823187




I feel sorry for the man as he wanted to sit inside the cockpit but couldn't like IK, Omar and Khattak did but nearest he came to the cockpit is to sit near to it. 😀.


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## raja786

Yasser76 said:


> Turkey has stood by Pakistan for 70 years, it helped us with supplies in 65 and 71. Odd statement.


I am not saying they have Ill motives but they standing on wrong side of the bank. I have good enough reasons to make that statement, we have witnessed in terms of sale of helicopters. It was blocked by US, there are other things they can't come openly to us. Small stuff don't matter and time is always a good teacher. Turkey needs to come out of Nato alliance but I don't think its possible for them now.



Rafi said:


> Beware of injun false flaggers, going after our 2 strategic partners.


You are so unsecured soul. 🙂


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## m52k85

Thrust_Vector998 said:


> https://fb.watch/bJR9DDI7Dp/
> *Just see who is piloting the BLK52+ and you'll be surprised 😉*


It says flying commander no. 5 WC Imtiaz, but it doesnt mean the same WC Imtiaz who on CO of no. 15 now. It could but it doesnt necessarily


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## blain2

siegecrossbow said:


> Video is great, but they did incorporate some of the J-10B TVC footage from Zhuhai 2018 in it! Hate to disappoint many people here but J-10C is not capable of post stall maneuvers.


Agreed but post stall maneuvers like Cobra etc. don't have a lot of benefit in close in combat where HOBS AAM are employed. The agility and attack aspects of the 5th generation WVR AAMs are very difficult to beat with such maneuvers.

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## Aesterix

Deino said:


> Finally confirmed, they are officially - at least as per CAC - called J-10CE!
> 
> View attachment 823404


That means the box standard export variant. Nothing Pakistan specific.


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## Rafi

raja786 said:


> I am not saying they have Ill motives but they standing on wrong side of the bank. I have good enough reasons to make that statement, we have witnessed in terms of sale of helicopters. It was blocked by US, there are other things they can't come openly to us. Small stuff don't matter and time is always a good teacher. Turkey needs to come out of Nato alliance but I don't think its possible for them now.
> 
> 
> You are so unsecured soul. 🙂





Aesterix said:


> That means the box standard export variant. Nothing Pakistan specific.



You know nothing Sarfriz, keep insulting ethnic groups in Pakistan, that is your forte.

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## raja786

Rafi said:


> You know nothing Sarfriz, keep insulting ethnic groups in Pakistan, that is your forte.


?????? What mate.
سوال گندم جواب چنا ۔
✋

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## Thrust_Vector998

m52k85 said:


> It says flying commander no. 5 WC Imtiaz, but it doesnt mean the same WC Imtiaz who on CO of no. 15 now. It could but it doesnt necessarily


What are the odds!

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> That is their inferiority complex speaking. I was going to write something else but thought it better that we ignore them and instead concentrate on getting ourselves more stronger.
> Our weakest link remains our fragile economy and low reserves which will not allow us any lee way unless we rectify it. We need to put our heads down and concentrate on economic build up for the next 5-10 years. Till such time that we do so we will remain vulnerable to external pressures.
> A


Solution is simple
Exports
SBP indepedence(Free rupee without intervention)
Dams and local power house

Something we have failed to do for a simple reason..

Dubai and london approach

The two major parties that have remained in power and will remain in power have decided that they want pakistan to be a trading country like dubai & london rather then a manufacturing power house like korea, vietnam and now bengladesh

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## The Terminator

Can someone ID the correct engine model and variant! @Deino

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## truthseeker2010

araz said:


> Lets not concentrate on their woes. We have got plenty of our own and we need some serious focused attention on them. Lets sort our own problems out and leave them to sort their own out
> Regards



Pakistan really need to sort out its political difference and have clear 15 year economic plan. After the current situation in ukraine, it needs to find new markets in central asia and asean, and try to keep distance from globalization as much as it can. Because the best weapon of west is now financial sanctions. So Pakistan need to learn fast and adapt.

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## Waterboy

araz said:


> PLAAF will have its own jammers which would be equally capable. If needed we will have the capability to do so in house.
> However with hardware from multiple vendors it sometimes becomes problematic to use the hardware to their best capability. So there may have been a prudent decision to not do so.


Is aselpod superior to chinese alternative?

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## truthseeker2010

tphuang said:


> Sure, but that advantage goes away the minute you start hanging missiles and fuel tanks outside. As much as I mock su-57 for not being a true 5th generation aircraft, it's RCS will be an order of magnitude lower than any aircraft carrying missiles externally
> 
> Right now, there are basically 4 places you can buy weapons from: US, Europe, Russia and China. India can buy the latest/greatest from Europe and Russia, but not from US/China. With India continuing to stay neutral in the Ukraine conflict, it would be very hard for me to see US providing the latest military hardware like F-35 to India. I think India have seen what it takes to have access to F-35 and other similarly advanced American weapons. You have to be at least 90% aligned with America on foreign adventures and give up your operation sovereignty to America. I don't think it makes sense for India to do that in the long term if it wants to be a respected super power. As such, it just needs to bite the bullet for a good number of years and continue to develop its military industrial complex. Handing money off to the Russians to locally produce MKI was not good for India's domestic industry. Handing more money off to the Russians for the pretense of cooperating on a 5th generation aircraft is not good for India. The result of that is what you have right now.
> 
> I think there is no realistic path for India to obtain real 5th generation aircraft capability for the rest of this decade. So, it should spend the minimum money possible on buying more aircraft in the class of Rafale or F-15E or typhoon. Don't worry about locally producing and such. Just buy what you need to meet basic defense need. You are never going to develop a competitive local industry by license producing 2nd tier aircraft from other countries. All that does it drive up cost per aircraft. They need to work spend as much money on MCA development as possible. Spend more money with Safran to develop the next generation engine for MCA. If we get to 2030 and they still don't have 5th generation aircraft, then buying from one of the European projects like the tempest would be the best option. At least with that, they can get an aircraft that in theory is better than the present day version of f35 and j20. India might not get that until late 2030s though. If Russia ever gets su57 development finished, that's the other 2030 option for iaf. But I must warn you rather whether china sells paf j20 or fc31, both aircraft will have stealth and sensor advantage over su57.
> 
> In the end, India needs to develop its own 5th gen aircraft. There is no reason it should take longer to do it than turkey.
> 
> 
> You have to understand that India is in a terrible position militarily right now. 15 years ago, it could hang its hope on having a more powerful flanker than China. Right now, China has 3 times the number of J-20s as India has with Rafale. And the gap between PLAAF and IAF will continue to increase over the next 10 years. Not only that, the 2nd best systems that China can supply to PAF will be increasingly more advanced than the latest hardware they can get from Western countries. They have no choice but to hope that Rafale can beat J-20 and Su-30MKI can beat J-16/J-10C.



Seeing the current situation of IAF, I have to admire PAF has done a tremendous job in modernizing its fleet. And China had been to Pakistan what US is just to israel. Given that Pak establishment is now very much in chinese camp, its very assuring that future of Paf and pak military is very promising. The only vulnerability is now the economy and political instability.

For IAF you rightly said money cant solve all your problems.


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## The Terminator

tphuang said:


> Sure, but that advantage goes away the minute you start hanging missiles and fuel tanks outside. As much as I mock su-57 for not being a true 5th generation aircraft, it's RCS will be an order of magnitude lower than any aircraft carrying missiles externally
> 
> Right now, there are basically 4 places you can buy weapons from: US, Europe, Russia and China. India can buy the latest/greatest from Europe and Russia, but not from US/China. With India continuing to stay neutral in the Ukraine conflict, it would be very hard for me to see US providing the latest military hardware like F-35 to India. I think India have seen what it takes to have access to F-35 and other similarly advanced American weapons. You have to be at least 90% aligned with America on foreign adventures and give up your operation sovereignty to America. I don't think it makes sense for India to do that in the long term if it wants to be a respected super power. As such, it just needs to bite the bullet for a good number of years and continue to develop its military industrial complex. Handing money off to the Russians to locally produce MKI was not good for India's domestic industry. Handing more money off to the Russians for the pretense of cooperating on a 5th generation aircraft is not good for India. The result of that is what you have right now.
> 
> I think there is no realistic path for India to obtain real 5th generation aircraft capability for the rest of this decade. So, it should spend the minimum money possible on buying more aircraft in the class of Rafale or F-15E or typhoon. Don't worry about locally producing and such. Just buy what you need to meet basic defense need. You are never going to develop a competitive local industry by license producing 2nd tier aircraft from other countries. All that does it drive up cost per aircraft. They need to work spend as much money on MCA development as possible. Spend more money with Safran to develop the next generation engine for MCA. If we get to 2030 and they still don't have 5th generation aircraft, then buying from one of the European projects like the tempest would be the best option. At least with that, they can get an aircraft that in theory is better than the present day version of f35 and j20. India might not get that until late 2030s though. If Russia ever gets su57 development finished, that's the other 2030 option for iaf. But I must warn you rather whether china sells paf j20 or fc31, both aircraft will have stealth and sensor advantage over su57.
> 
> In the end, India needs to develop its own 5th gen aircraft. There is no reason it should take longer to do it than turkey.
> 
> 
> You have to understand that India is in a terrible position militarily right now. 15 years ago, it could hang its hope on having a more powerful flanker than China. Right now, China has 3 times the number of J-20s as India has with Rafale. And the gap between PLAAF and IAF will continue to increase over the next 10 years. Not only that, the 2nd best systems that China can supply to PAF will be increasingly more advanced than the latest hardware they can get from Western countries. They have no choice but to hope that Rafale can beat J-20 and Su-30MKI can beat J-16/J-10C.


India isn't China's arch rival, but it's US/NATO/AUKUS. So comparing China's military assets with India is counterintuitive. India is a distraction for China created by the US, like Ukraine to Russia for example. And with world's highest mountain ranges in between both the countries, the chances of full scale China Vs India war are minimal.


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## siegecrossbow

The Terminator said:


> View attachment 823829
> View attachment 823830
> View attachment 823831
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone ID the correct engine model and variant! @Deino



WS-10B.


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## Salza

siegecrossbow said:


> WS-10B.


Dont know why this question is being asked every now and than. Its annoying.

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## araz

Waterboy said:


> Is aselpod superior to chinese alternative?


I am not sure. So you may have to ask a professional. But the point regarding potential problems with integration remains. We do not know how much autonomy PAF has in this regards.
A

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## raja786

truthseeker2010 said:


> Seeing the current situation of IAF, I have to admire PAF has done a tremendous job in modernizing its fleet. And China had been to Pakistan what US is just to israel. Given that Pak establishment is now very much in chinese camp, its very assuring that future of Paf and pak military is very promising. The only vulnerability is now the economy and political instability.
> 
> For IAF you rightly said money cant solve all your problems.


I agree with Paf part of your post brother, but don't agree with PAK China relationship compared as US Israeli one. First we are very important to the world specially to China and then west. Israel is bastard child of west and they keep supporting them with everything, without them Israel is nothing , it will drown in arbs piss. 
We need to come out of this mentality that we need godfather all the time no we don't, it's other way around Allah has given us some sort of special powers that if we go against any superpower we will manage to break it apart and history supports this claim, we make and break superpowers. Without our help and input China will be stuck and they know it. But its in our benefit to stay in alliance with China. Russia has realised soon US will realise aswell but its already too late for them. Don't put yourself down.

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## NA71

can someone recall the date when @The Eagle all of sudden posted "Ready to embrace" or some like??

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## truthseeker2010

raja786 said:


> I agree with Paf part of your post brother, but don't agree with PAK China relationship compared as US Israeli one. First we are very important to the world specially to China and then west. Israel is bastard child of west and they keep supporting them with everything, without them Israel is nothing , it will drown in arbs piss.
> We need to come out of this mentality that we need godfather all the time no we don't, it's other way around Allah has given us some sort of special powers that if we go against any superpower we will manage to break it apart and history supports this claim, we make and break superpowers. Without our help and input China will be stuck and they know it. But its in our benefit to stay in alliance with China. Russia has realised soon US will realise aswell but its already too late for them. Don't put yourself down.



Look at the history (military only) and compare it with israel. It has given you its best jet and there are already talks of J-20 for PAF. Its like giving F-22 to Israel air force. (Has it happened or even is there discussion?)

You definitely needs to come out of this illusion that Pak destroyed or broke Soviet Union. You were the font man of the west. (CIA training, Saudi Funding, Afghan Men and US weapons.) What did Pak got, at most nuke at the cost of Kalashnikov and refugees. 

Secondly China has become where it is on its OWN with sheer hard work and being peaceful and minding their own business. The only thing that Pak did was arranging a meeting between US and China. If you think Pak is so blessed why didn't it develop and become a powerhouse of its own. Instead it lost 70k people, insecurity and 20 precious years. Now if you think Pak defeated US in afghanistan, but you should look at the cost and more importantly where are other countries now as compared to 20 year ago such as bangladesh.

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## The Terminator

siegecrossbow said:


> WS-10B.


TVC? I asked for complete model and variant.


Salza said:


> Dont know why this question is being asked every now and than. Its annoying.


Hey jus chill! don't overreact. I just wanna know they are TVC capable or not because PAF promo video displayed a Chinese jet with TVC specific maneuvers. So that clip created some confusion if PAF J-10CPs can do the same or not!


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## clibra

Shotgunner51 said:


> An observation on the MAWS
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502562543294095360


You can always trust CAC on quality. They work very hart to improve their manufacture capability to the state of art level.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## The Terminator

Metal 0-1 said:


> WS-10B
> 
> Non Thrust vectoring bs version


Thanks now I got my answer! 😊

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## Aesterix

Indians had been chest thumping about Rafale for the last 5 years.
Pakistan got done and dusted with the countermeasures J-10CE in mere 8 months, without even creating a whisper.
Same about Indian shouting their throats out for S-400 for over 5 years.
Pakistan bought and induction countermeasures HQ-9 without anyone knowing much.
The difference between professionals and show-offs.

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## The Terminator

truthseeker2010 said:


> Pakistan really need to sort out its political difference and have clear 15 year economic plan. After the current situation in ukraine, it needs to find new markets in central asia and asean, and try to keep distance from globalization as much as it can. Because the best weapon of west is now financial sanctions. So Pakistan need to learn fast and adapt.


Wrong. Really wrong assessment. The best weapon of the west is control of Information and global media/propaganda. They can twist anything to look great or worse. Their power lies in the narrative building. Sanctions are their 2nd best weapon but it's gradually loosing it's potency.

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## truthseeker2010

The Terminator said:


> Wrong. Really wrong assessment. The best weapon of the west is control of Information and global media/propaganda. They can twist anything to look great or worse. Their power lies in the narrative building. Sanctions are their 2nd best weapon but it's gradually loosing it's potency.



Propaganda does not hurt, sanctions do.


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## TheTallGuy

Deino said:


> Hmm? My point is, are they now indeed already part of the 15th Squadron or was it more a formal or official induction like a "welcome to Pakistan and here we are"! ceremony?




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502992444891308039

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## siegecrossbow

Salza said:


> Dont know why this question is being asked every now and than. Its annoying.



Because people still doubt the quality of Chinese engines. All I've got to say is that J-16s and J-11B, which both use a variation of the same engine used on J-10CP, have probably clocked 2000 flights over Taiwan strait (open water) without mishap. Don't worry about it.



The Terminator said:


> TVC? I asked for complete model and variant.
> 
> Hey jus chill! don't overreact. I just wanna know they are TVC capable or not because PAF promo video displayed a Chinese jet with TVC specific maneuvers. So that clip created some confusion if PAF J-10CPs can do the same or not!



No TVC. The only TVC equipped engine that PLAAF plans on fielding is WS-15.

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## The Terminator

siegecrossbow said:


> Because people still doubt the quality of Chinese engines. All I've got to say is that J-16s and J-11B, which both use a variation of the same engine used on J-10CP, have probably clocked 2000 flights over Taiwan strait (open water) without mishap. Don't worry about it.
> 
> 
> 
> No TVC. The only TVC equipped engine that PLAAF plans on fielding is WS-15.


So how did the J-10C performed stunts like Russian TVC flankers! Don't tell me it wasn't with TVC


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## siegecrossbow

The Terminator said:


> So how did the J-10C performed stunts like Russian TVC flankers! Don't tell me it wasn't with TVC



It wasn't a J-10C. It was a modified J-10B with TVC engine nozzle, a demonstrator for future tech to be incorporated onto the J-20.

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## The Terminator

truthseeker2010 said:


> Propaganda does not hurt, sanctions do.


I don't wanna indulge in long debates here maybe some other time at better place. It's not the correct thread to discuss that.

Just a hint. Heros don't get banned/sanctioned because they are the good guys. And who does make the heros . . . . 
Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, Korea, Libya, Palestine vs Ukraine, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Israel etc What's the difference between the 2 groups? Figure out


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## Aesterix

siegecrossbow said:


> Because people still doubt the quality of Chinese engines. All I've got to say is that J-16s and J-11B, which both use a variation of the same engine used on J-10CP, have probably clocked 2000 flights over Taiwan strait (open water) without mishap. Don't worry about it.
> 
> 
> 
> No TVC. The only TVC equipped engine that PLAAF plans on fielding is WS-15.


Tvc involves lots of hydraulic actuators, which add to the weight and power requirements. 
The downside.


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## Air Wolf

m52k85 said:


> but it doesnt mean the same WC Imtiaz who on CO of no. 15 now



Same.

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## SABRE

siegecrossbow said:


> It wasn't a J-10C. It was a modified J-10B with TVC engine nozzle, a demonstrator for future tech to be incorporated onto the J-20.



I blame YouTubers for this. Every time someone searched for a J-10C video they ended up with J-10B with TVC performing cobras. This led many to assume it was in fact J-10C with TVC. & now PAF has added that clip to their promotional video.

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## blain2

Metal 0-1 said:


> WS-10B
> 
> Non Thrust vectoring bs version


Are you deprecating the engine? How so?

TVC cuts the engine life down by at least 1/3. It has limited value in BVR and WVR combat given the proliferation of highly agile WVR AAMs with imaging IR seekers that make this type of aircraft maneuverability fairly redundant.

Sometimes keeping things simple is the better option.

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## tman786



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## Readerdefence

Hi while members here discussing including myself PL15e range why don’t we all come to one &only one conclusion if PAF and GOP is advertising J10c almost like a stealth aircraft then we all should agree to one thing 
PL15 whatever range it has must be and Im saying must be if not above then the METEOR missile 
otherwise no point of getting PL15 if PAF can’t shoot down first Rafale so let’s say Rafale 150 PL15 e or no E will be same at least if nobody want to make it to 200 or so 
another thing why will China give something which can not compete with Rafale it’s chinas repute online for further export to other countries too
thank you

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## The Terminator

SABRE said:


> I blame YouTubers for this. Every time someone searched for a J-10C video they ended up with J-10B with TVC performing cobras. This led many to assume it was in fact J-10C with TVC. & now PAF has added that clip to their promotional video.


I already knew about that info but when PAF adds these kind of clips in their official promo then it confuses even the knowledgeable ones that exactly which kind of engine is in J-10CP. As Pakistani variant is not the same as Chinese one

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## 帅的一匹

The Terminator said:


> I already knew about that info but when PAF adds these kind of clips in their official promo then it confuses even the knowledgeable ones that exactly which kind of engine is in J-10CP. As Pakistani variant is not the same as Chinese one


They just wanna show you what J10x can do with WS15 engine. That’s the point I love PAF, they see the future possibility (super cruise and super maneuverability .

This is completely different from Indian show off, PAF has visions and desires.

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## The Terminator

帅的一匹 said:


> They just wanna show you what J10x can do with WS15 engine. That’s the point I love PAF, they see the future possibility (super cruise and super maneuverability .
> 
> This is completely different from Indian show off, PAF has visions and desires.


Have you watched the promo video? What do you think! Has PAF done a better job in marketing of J-10C

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## 帅的一匹

The way forward is bright, it just begin.



The Terminator said:


> Have you watched the promo video? What do you think! Has PAF done a better job in marketing J-10C


Way better than AVIC

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## The Eagle

Scorpiooo said:


> They are handed over to sqr in replacement of mirages dedicated for a to g role



The same squadron that scored first Aerial kill in 1959 if I am not mistaken. Mind you, pilots are not role specific. They can go for any mission but it's the aircraft.


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## SABRE

TheTallGuy said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502992444891308039





帅的一匹 said:


> Way better than AVIC



Honestly, the aircraft looks far better in the videos captured by Pakistan Air Force than PLAAF ever has.

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## Chak Bamu

Aliph Ahmed said:


> How big is the difference?


I really can not say. We just took words of CAS on face value.

IMV JF-17 Block III must have been found wanting against Rafale. Also, it was time that PAF committed to a program that would take the force beyond 2040s. With a low RCS design, 1000+ T/R module AESA radar, top-notch avionics, good TWR, OK payload, & room for growth, J-10C was the logical choice.

I am not saying that JF-17 would necessarily lose to Rafale - it would still out-stick it with PL-15. Its that PAF must have wargamed the heck out of various scenarios to find that they want a surer qualitative edge. JF-17 design was always that of a low cost, inexpensive operation cost, light, and numbers fighter. There is only so much it can do. It shall grow further & I fully expect a Block-IV, even if we may not call it that.

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## Salza

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 823840


All look senior pilots. Not a single rookie.

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## Windjammer

Seen over Islamabad today while rehearsing for Pakistan Dsy Parade.

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## Stealth

SABRE said:


> Honestly, the aircraft looks far better in the videos captured by Pakistan Air Force than PLAAF ever has.


 Because they are serious in developing things, in research and development, tech and other things where as we are buyer, more in show off, not even produce a single helicopter to date, even we role out so called “OUR” JF17 new version from “China”. Thats enough to understand who and who is actually doing the real work.

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## Bleek

Stealth said:


> Because they are serious in developing things, in research and development, tech and other things where as we are buyer, more in show off, not even produce a single helicopter to date, even we role out so called “OUR” JF17 new version from “China”. Thats enough to understand who and who is actually doing the real work.


Our production quality and marketing most of the time is horrible anyway

This seems like a one-off, perhaps it was a nod by the Chinese for indirect marketing for their jet


----------



## Reichmarshal

Chak Bamu said:


> I really can not say. We just took words of CAS on face value.
> 
> IMV JF-17 Block III must have been found wanting against Rafale. Also, it was time that PAF committed to a program that would take the force beyond 2040s. With a low RCS design, 1000+ T/R module AESA radar, top-notch avionics, good TWR, OK payload, & room for growth, J-10C was the logical choice.
> 
> I am not saying that JF-17 would necessarily lose to Rafale - it would still out-stick it with PL-15. Its that PAF must have wargamed the heck out of various scenarios to find that they want a surer qualitative edge. JF-17 design was always that of a low cost, inexpensive operation cost, light, and numbers fighter. There is only so much it can do. It shall grow further & I fully expect a Block-IV, even if we may not call it that.


PAF has to replace more than 200 plud ac immediately. With jf 17 thunder production at around 20 ac it would take 10 years to do that.
So PAF has no option but to buy not just one but 2 platforms

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## Yasser76

Reichmarshal said:


> PAF has to replace more than 200 plud ac immediately. With jf 17 thunder production at around 20 ac it would take 10 years to do that.
> So PAF has no option but to buy bot just one but 2 platforms



How did you get the 200 number?

Mirages are down to around 80 planes and F-7PGs down to around 40.


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## Salza

Reichmarshal said:


> PAF has to replace more than 200 plud ac immediately.


who told you that ? 

this 200 number count was 7-8 years back. Now start counting how many thunders we have added after that, so as 13 Jordanian F16s and 36 J10Cs soon to be included as well.


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## kursed

PAF showing serious love for J10C, don't remember a promotional video for even Block 52s.

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## iLION12345_1

Yasser76 said:


> How did you get the 200 number?
> 
> Mirages are down to around 80 planes and F-7PGs down to around 40.


48 F7PGs. Mirages are more than 80 I think, but not by much. Definitely nowhere near 200.

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## TopGun786



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## SABRE

Bleek said:


> Our production quality and marketing most of the time is horrible anyway
> 
> This seems like a one-off, perhaps it was a mod by the Chinese for indirect marketing for their jet



I think a private production & marketing firm is responsible for this promotion.


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## araz

The Terminator said:


> TVC? I asked for complete model and variant.
> 
> Hey jus chill! don't overreact. I just wanna know they are TVC capable or not because PAF promo video displayed a Chinese jet with TVC specific maneuvers. So that clip created some confusion if PAF J-10CPs can do the same or not!


NO and rest assured for the foreseeable future PAF will not have a TVC bearing aircraft. It adds weight and has very little utility i n the presence of HOBS missiles 
Regards
A

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## WinterFangs

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503286946445115395

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## Thrust_Vector998

ACM's Block 52+ was leading a pair of J-10Cs today

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## rcrmj

being away from PDF for at least 5 years, this time back to celebrate together with Pakistani friends with the induction of J-10CE!!

next game would be J-35,

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## NA71

Thrust_Vector998 said:


> ACM's Block 52+ was leading a pair of J-10Cs today



I don't think current ACM fly Blk 52

Just a look of cockpit (Courtesy: Sohail Ahmed -Twitter)

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## 帅的一匹

rcrmj said:


> being away from PDF for at least 5 years, this time back to celebrate together with Pakistani friends with the induction of J-10CE!!
> 
> next game would be J-35,


Where have you been my friend, I still remember you are the first one quoted me in the forum

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## jaybird

NA71 said:


> I don't think current ACM fly Blk 52
> 
> Just a look of cockpit (Courtesy: Sohail Ahmed -Twitter)
> 
> View attachment 823988


I wish Sohail would jump a little bit higher for the cockpit money shot. 😊

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## NA71

jaybird said:


> I wish Sohail would jump a little bit higher for the cockpit money shot. 😊


This is his selfie stick max height...I guess.

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## Thrust_Vector998

NA71 said:


> I don't think current ACM fly Blk 52


Yup, the 'D' model was leading


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## rcrmj

帅的一匹 said:


> Where have you been my friend, I still remember you are the first one quoted me in the forum


haha, was quite busy last few years, good to see many old friends are still here lively

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## Bossman

The Terminator said:


> Wrong. Really wrong assessment. The best weapon of the west is control of Information and global media/propaganda. They can twist anything to look great or worse. Their power lies in the narrative building. Sanctions are their 2nd best weapon but it's gradually loosing it's potency.


A narrative build up that only fools their own people


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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503336535957069825

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## White and Green with M/S

One question in my mind,WHY J-10CE HAS ANGELED VERTICAL TAIL PLANE?, AND OTHER VERSION OF J-10 LIKE J-10A/J-10S/ J-10B HAVE SQUARE VERTICAL TAIL SLAB? ANYONE CAN CLARIFY ON THAT MATTER 🙂


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## siegecrossbow

White and Green with M/S said:


> One question in my mind,WHY J-10CE HAS ANGELED VERTICAL TAIL PLANE?, AND OTHER VERSION OF J-10 LIKE J-10A/J-10S/ J-10B HAVE SQUARE VERTICAL TAIL SLAB? ANYONE CAN CLARIFY ON THAT MATTER 🙂



I am not sure what you are asking. Are you referring to central strakes or vertical slab?


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## Reichmarshal

Salza said:


> who told you that ?
> 
> this 200 number count was 7-8 years back. Now start counting how many thunders we have added after that, so as 13 Jordanian F16s and 36 J10Cs soon to be included as well.


How many mirages does PAF has to replace ?
How many f7 does PAF has to replace ?

200 is a very conservative figure


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## jupiter2007

Reichmarshal said:


> How many mirages does PAF has to replace ?
> How many f7 does PAF has to replace ?
> 
> 200 is a very conservative figure


Probably between 125 to 150.


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## alikazmi007

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 823840


The first batch of the Dragon Riders!


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## Windjammer



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## araz

Bossman said:


> A narrative build up that only fools their own people


But this is all they need to do. The naivety of the US populace with international events is amazing. The UK population is a bit more aware but hugely reliant on the Western media for their information. To our misfortune, to date there is not a single media outlet which portrays our narrative to the west and also Pakistanis in the West. Our generation can still understand Urdu, but I worry what will happen in 2-3 generations when the Pakistani next generation is totally integrated into the western society. We need to cater to this now to reap the rewards later.
A


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## Deino

White and Green with M/S said:


> One question in my mind,WHY J-10CE HAS ANGELED VERTICAL TAIL PLANE?, AND OTHER VERSION OF J-10 LIKE J-10A/J-10S/ J-10B HAVE SQUARE VERTICAL TAIL SLAB? ANYONE CAN CLARIFY ON THAT MATTER 🙂




Care to explain what you mean? The angle is exactly the same on ALL J-10s except the fin cap on top.

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## Bossman

araz said:


> But this is all they need to do. The naivety of the US populace with international events is amazing. The UK population is a bit more aware but hugely reliant on the Western media for their information. To our misfortune, to date there is not a single media outlet which portrays our narrative to the west and also Pakistanis in the West. Our generation can still understand Urdu, but I worry what will happen in 2-3 generations when the Pakistani next generation is totally integrated into the western society. We need to cater to this now to reap the rewards later.
> A


You are looking at things from an immigrants perspective.


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## Scorpiooo

Newly inducted Chengdu J-10C in 3 Ship Formation rehearsing for 23 March Parade over Islamabad 🇵🇰

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## siegecrossbow

Reichmarshal said:


> How many mirages does PAF has to replace ?
> How many f7 does PAF has to replace ?
> 
> 200 is a very conservative figure



You don’t replaced 2nd/3rd generation fighter with 4.5 gen on a one to one basis. The latter could cover a lot more air space and has higher availability/is much more capable than the former.

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## Deino

Wow!!!  






via

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503399775973957634

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## Windjammer



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## Reichmarshal

siegecrossbow said:


> You don’t replaced 2nd/3rd generation fighter with 4.5 gen on a one to one basis. The latter could cover a lot more air space and has higher availability/is much more capable than the former.


PAF plans to maintain the current sqd strength

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## White privilege

Who wants to see a fully loaded J-10 for bombing mission now??

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## Iron Shrappenel

White privilege said:


> Who wants to see a fully loaded J-10 for bombing mission now??


I want to see it in air superiority role.... JF-17 block 3 and Mirages can drop all the bombs they want while the dragons set ablaze anything that gets close....

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## Jinn Baba

Deino said:


> Wow!!!
> 
> View attachment 824054
> 
> 
> via
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503399775973957634



Would love to have seen the Block 3 in that pic too!

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## White and Green with M/S

siegecrossbow said:


> I am not sure what you are asking. Are you referring to central strakes or vertical slab?


Tip of the vertical slab sir which is ANGLED and rest of J-10 versions have SQUARE TIPS VERTICAL STAB


Deino said:


> Care to explain what you mean? The angle is exactly the same on ALL J-10s except the fin cap on top.


Tip of the vertical slab sir which is ANGLED and rest of J-10 versions have SQUARE TIPS VERTICAL STAB


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## Readerdefence

Thrust_Vector998 said:


> Yup, the 'D' model was leading


Hi looks like ACM will be sitting in dual seat 52 as there isn’t j10 dual for PAF at the moment so as per norms yea blk52 
thank you


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## Scorpiooo

Readerdefence said:


> Hi looks like ACM will be sitting in dual seat 52 as there isn’t j10 dual for PAF at the moment so as per norms yea blk52
> thank you


Or can sit in back seat of JFT B this time


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## alikazmi007

I'm waiting to read Alan Warnes's latest article about our J-10C acquisition, wonder if PAF'd give him an exclusive view of the bird!

Let's see when he turns up to the party.


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## Ek620

The question is what is the main difference between our j-10 and the Chinese


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## ghazi52

....
This is something you don't see everyday!
PAF F-16D Block 52+ from No.5 Sqn "Falcons" with J-10C from No.15 Sqn "Cobras" over the skies of ISB...






..

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## Dreamer.

Ek620 said:


> The question is what is the main difference between our j-10 and the Chinese


Two major differences are known.

1. Ours carry Pakistan's flag and the PAF roundels whereas there's don't.

2. There's carries the the PLAAF symbol with the star in center whereas ours don't.

Your question cannot be answered seriously because so little is known about the chinese J-10's that one can't really compare those with export versions. And in order to compare PAF and PLAAF versions one would first have to know the details of both. I doubt PAF will be revealing a lot either.

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> But this is all they need to do. The naivety of the US populace with international events is amazing. The UK population is a bit more aware but hugely reliant on the Western media for their information. To our misfortune, to date there is not a single media outlet which portrays our narrative to the west and also Pakistanis in the West. Our generation can still understand Urdu, but I worry what will happen in 2-3 generations when the Pakistani next generation is totally integrated into the western society. We need to cater to this now to reap the rewards later.
> A


There is need for global english news channel like RT bbc or TRT

Indians have embraced english and are able to hold a large dispora and different langauage speaking indians together rhroygh it

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## Deino

White and Green with M/S said:


> Tip of the vertical slab sir which is ANGLED and rest of J-10 versions have SQUARE TIPS VERTICAL STAB
> 
> Tip of the vertical slab sir which is ANGLED and rest of J-10 versions have SQUARE TIPS VERTICAL STAB




Sorry, but already the J-10B had this as well as all previous J-10Cs in PLAAF service, it is nothing new!








Dreamer. said:


> Two major differences are known.
> 
> 1. Ours carry Pakistan's flag and the PAF roundels whereas there's don't.
> 
> 2. There's carries the the PLAAF symbol with the star in center whereas ours don't.
> 
> Your question cannot be answered seriously because so little is known about the chinese J-10's that one can't really compare those with export versions. And in order to compare PAF and PLAAF versions one would first have to know the details of both. I doubt PAF will be revealing a lot either.




Already posted several times ...

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## ghazi52

....
Simply Mesmerizing..
.





....

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## ProudPak

Chak Bamu said:


> I really can not say. We just took words of CAS on face value.
> 
> IMV JF-17 Block III must have been found wanting against Rafale. Also, it was time that PAF committed to a program that would take the force beyond 2040s. With a low RCS design, 1000+ T/R module AESA radar, top-notch avionics, good TWR, OK payload, & room for growth, J-10C was the logical choice.
> 
> I am not saying that JF-17 would necessarily lose to Rafale - it would still out-stick it with PL-15. Its that PAF must have wargamed the heck out of various scenarios to find that they want a surer qualitative edge. JF-17 design was always that of a low cost, inexpensive operation cost, light, and numbers fighter. There is only so much it can do. It shall grow further & I fully expect a Block-IV, even if we may not call it that.


The only place jf17 block 3 is found wanting is the load capacity. Aside from that it will hold its own against the best. Remember air Marshal shahid later said its better than our f16 block f52

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## Bleek

ProudPak said:


> The only place jf17 block 3 is found wanting is the load capacity. Aside from that it will hold its own against the best. Remember air Marshal shahid later said its better than our f16 block f52


Not exactly the most reliable guy, I think his statements are politically fueled...


----------



## Ali_Baba

alikazmi007 said:


> I'm waiting to read Alan Warnes's latest article about our J-10C acquisition, wonder if PAF'd give him an exclusive view of the bird!
> 
> Let's see when he turns up to the party.



Interesting - he has not mentioned anything on twitter yet about PAF J10CE's.


----------



## ProudPak

Bleek said:


> Not exactly the most reliable guy, I think his statements are politically fueled...


Looool I can tell u he more loyal to Pakistan than you and I will ever be. And politics he isn't really involved in. For a short while he was with IK and the Canadian molvi but he has moved away from them all now.
Additionally he started the jf17 program and was involved with it until the 1st squadron was handed over.
He had a fallout with zardari who was in favour of scrapping the program and has been threatened by the American ambassdors. So my dear friend when u and I put out lives on the line then we can criticise such men

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## Reichmarshal

Yasser76 said:


> How did you get the 200 number?
> 
> Mirages are down to around 80 planes and F-7PGs down to around 40.


90 is the no. of mirage 5 in operation with PAF, not counting the the mirage 3



Salza said:


> who told you that ?
> 
> this 200 number count was 7-8 years back. Now start counting how many thunders we have added after that, so as 13 Jordanian F16s and 36 J10Cs soon to be included as well.


other than retiring the f7 p, of which around more than a sqd strength is still in operation, PAF has basically kept all the mirages in service.


----------



## MastanKhan

ProudPak said:


> The only place jf17 block 3 is found wanting is the load capacity. Aside from that it will hold its own against the best. Remember air Marshal shahid later said its better than our f16 block f52



Hi,

We will know about the capabilities of the JF17 BLK 3 around 3 to 5 years from now---when the newer systems and weapons have been fully integrated and pilots have flown hundreds of hours in them.

JF17 BLK 3 has yet to show its colors.

Why do you need load and for what purpose.

Could you please explain the utility of the "Load Capacity" as compared to the size of the aircaft---.



siegecrossbow said:


> You don’t replaced 2nd/3rd generation fighter with 4.5 gen on a one to one basis. The latter could cover a lot more air space and has higher availability/is much more capable than the former.



Hi,

You are correct---but then we have an enemy 5 times larger than us---and we have been able to get a very capable aircraft---actually two new aircrafts---.

So---in the future---our numbers would be around a time and a 1/2 more---.

Around 400-450 + aircraft---of the 4.5 gen type.

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## kursed

NA71 said:


> I don't think current ACM fly Blk 52
> 
> Just a look of cockpit (Courtesy: Sohail Ahmed -Twitter)
> 
> View attachment 823988


This doesn’t seem like the Pakistani version of J10CE.

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## rAli

kursed said:


> This doesn’t seem like the Pakistani version of J10CE.


Yep, if you zoom in, the panel markings are in Mandarin not English.

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## ahtan_china

It is hard to comment for PL-15 because of the relation between China and Pakistan. Who know this deal? The C801 was exported to Pakistan was same as PLANY version in the past. Then Pakistan navy change a new name for C801.

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## GriffinsRule

ProudPak said:


> Looool I can tell u he more loyal to Pakistan than you and I will ever be. And politics he isn't really involved in. For a short while he was with IK and the Canadian molvi but he has moved away from them all now.
> Additionally he started the jf17 program and was involved with it until the 1st squadron was handed over.
> He had a fallout with zardari who was in favour of scrapping the program and has been threatened by the American ambassdors. So my dear friend when u and I put out lives on the line then we can criticise such men


No one is above criticism but it has to be justified and not just for the sake of it. No reason to put people up on a pedestal just because they served in the military else your common day bad actors will enjoy the benefits of that blanket immunity as well. I put my life at risk for others every time I hop on the 405 freeway as well if that counts lol.

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## Chak Bamu

ProudPak said:


> The only place jf17 block 3 is found wanting is the load capacity. Aside from that it will hold its own against the best. Remember air Marshal shahid later said its better than our f16 block f52


We should know how hard to blow out own trumpet, lest we damage ourselves.

J-10C is here for a reason. And that reason is spelled R A F A L E.



ahtan_china said:


> It is hard to comment for PL-15 because of the relation between China and Pakistan. Who know this deal? The C801 was exported to Pakistan was same as PLANY version in the past. Then Pakistan navy change a new name for C801.
> 
> View attachment 824191


The question of the range of PL-15 that PAF got is best left unanswered. The ambiguity is to our advantage & if I see someone probing too hard to make anyone spill beans, I would automatically assume the worst regarding their intentions.

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## NA71

kursed said:


> This doesn’t seem like the Pakistani version of J10CE.


Let me check with Sohail ....


----------



## HAIDER

Prime Minister Imran Khan attended the induction ceremony of modern fighter aircraft #J10C into Pakistan Air Force at Kamra Base earlier today


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502268103928922112

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## ZY-CN-CA

F16D 52 VS J10CE which one is better? 1.1*F16=J10 OR 1.1*J10=F16 or other formula


----------



## Deino

kursed said:


> This doesn’t seem like the Pakistani version of J10CE.





rAli said:


> Yep, if you zoom in, the panel markings are in Mandarin not English.





NA71 said:


> Let me check with Sohail ....




There is no need to check. It is 100% for sure thge PLAAF J-10C, which was on display at the last Zhuhai Airshow.

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## ProudPak

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> We will know about the capabilities of the JF17 BLK 3 around 3 to 5 years from now---when the newer systems and weapons have been fully integrated and pilots have flown hundreds of hours in them.
> 
> JF17 BLK 3 has yet to show its colors.
> 
> Why do you need load and for what purpose.
> 
> Could you please explain the utility of the "Load Capacity" as compared to the size of the aircaft---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> You are correct---but then we have an enemy 5 times larger than us---and we have been able to get a very capable aircraft---actually two new aircrafts---.
> 
> So---in the future---our numbers would be around a time and a 1/2 more---.
> 
> Around 400-450 + aircraft---of the 4.5 gen type.


Hi MK
The ratio of size to load capacity is fine for the jf17. However previous Air chief have said that the j10c doesn't bring anything significant tk the PAF capabilities. The only obvious thing I could see was the number of weapons j10c could carry in comparison to the jf17. People are thinking that jf17 cannot compete with the Rafale and that's the only reason for the purchase. And now we have a few j10c the equation is balanced.


----------



## Bleek

ProudPak said:


> Looool I can tell u he more loyal to Pakistan than you and I will ever be. And politics he isn't really involved in. For a short while he was with IK and the Canadian molvi but he has moved away from them all now.
> Additionally he started the jf17 program and was involved with it until the 1st squadron was handed over.
> He had a fallout with zardari who was in favour of scrapping the program and has been threatened by the American ambassdors. So my dear friend when u and I put out lives on the line then we can criticise such men


Bro I'm not questioning his loyalty, he has done a lot for Pakistan and that will always be respected. 

But the reason I said less credible or politically fueled is because on his Twitter he still has a post pinned claiming the JF-17 shot down the Su-30MKI in 2019.

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## Beast

ZY-CN-CA said:


> F16D 52 VS J10CE which one is better? 1.1*F16=J10 OR 1.1*J10=F16 or other formula


blk 52 used mechnical steer doppler pulse radar while J-10CE used KLJ-10A AESA.

Totally no comparison.

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## serenity

ZY-CN-CA said:


> F16D 52 VS J10CE which one is better? 1.1*F16=J10 OR 1.1*J10=F16 or other formula



Well that coefficient only PAF knows and they only know about F-16 block 52 and J-10C*E*

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## ProudPak

Sure. U know he is quite old.
He only like a revolver and gate magazine fed pistols. Looool so trust me twitter is very very forward. He doesn't use social media a lot


----------



## Bleek

serenity said:


> Well that coefficient only PAF knows and they only know about F-16 block 52 and J-10C*E*


How large of a difference do you think there is between the PLAAF model and export model?


----------



## Corax

Chak Bamu said:


> J-10C is here for a reason. And that reason is spelled R A F A L E.


I'm not sure whether that is necessarily the case. With the induction of AESA equipped Block III JF-17, along with HMD/S, PL-10, PL-15 combo and upgraded EW suite, and with the option of upgrading previous Block I/II aircraft to a similar configuration, the JF-17 can counter the Rafale. In the A2A domain, the only additional capability afforded by the J-10 is IRST and maybe a slightly larger AESA, but with datalink that isn't that much of a significant step-up in capability.

As I've mentioned in previous posts, in my view the PAF sees the J-10C filling a niche of a medium-weight strike platform due to the inability to upgrade the Viper fleet with SOWs, and the inevitable drawing down of the Mirage fleet. The J-10C airframe lends itself quite well for strike missions given its relatively large internal fuel fraction and load capacity, not to mention the relative ease with which it can be upgraded with PAF's weapons and commonality in terms of avionics architecture with the JF-17.

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## Windjammer



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## Maxpane

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 824231


Masha Allah . ALLAH PAK nazre bad se bachaen.

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## NA71

Shaikh Rasheed today in an interview said ....J10C in 25 numbers will fly on 23rd March and may be Chinese FM will also witness the flypast.

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## Windjammer



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## serenity

Bleek said:


> How large of a difference do you think there is between the PLAAF model and export model?



I don't know and not many would know.


----------



## Blueskiez 2001

Is there any changes in the antenna configuration after the J-10c has been delivered to PAF. 

I have tried to se if there are any difference in the early images and the images after delivery.

I can´t se any difference. 

Anyone?


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

I saw a sneak view of the J-10 cockpit from the induction ceremony in Pakistan but I'm unable to find it now. Can someone please share it again? The image / Picture.


----------



## Deino

Bleek said:


> How large of a difference do you think there is between the PLAAF model and export model?




IMO besides the missing Chinese datalink which is being replaced by the own Link 17 system, there is none. In fact i would be surprised if they are „downgraded“.

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## WinterFangs



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## WarKa DaNG

Does the PAF J-10C have WS-10 TVC engines?

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## omi

ahtan_china said:


> It is hard to comment for PL-15 because of the relation between China and Pakistan. Who know this deal? The C801 was exported to Pakistan was same as PLANY version in the past. Then Pakistan navy change a new name for C801.
> 
> View attachment 824191



Currently we have purchased the PL-15e because every missile has a limited shelf life. Any Enstein can figure this out. 

The Indians dont yet have the Meteors for their Rafale and wont have them till a few more years. 

When that time comes, We will get the PL-15s. Hope this helps everybody

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## Development C&P

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502412674939998212

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## Ghessan

does PAF J-10C has a massage ejection seat?
does PAF J-10C has air purifier in cockpit?
does J-10C stealth capability say peek a boo to opponent?
does J-10C have a dedicated button to pop out a Redbull?
does J-10C EW emits a panic attack to likes of SU-30s, Rafales etc.
does J-10C dodge MRAAM like ... 






does it do this, do that, do this that ... this that ... this that ...
com'on man, are we not done with this?

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## ProudPak

Bleek said:


> How large of a difference do you think there is between the PLAAF model and export model?


I think Pakistani models will be very similar. Both countries know a lot about each other since the joint fighter project. Having said that the Chinese are extremely cagey as well



WinterFangs said:


> View attachment 824323


Israeli input and design help from the Levi project helped the Chinese design and manufacture a cutting edge fighter that will hunt Israeli friends India to make Israeli manufactured weapons look very bad. Oh the irony


----------



## siegecrossbow

Ghessan said:


> does PAF J-10C has a massage ejection seat?
> does PAF J-10C has air purifier in cockpit?
> does J-10C stealth capability say peek a boo to opponent?
> does J-10C have a dedicated button to pop out a Redbull?
> does J-10C EW emits a panic attack to likes of SU-30s, Rafales etc.
> does J-10C dodge MRAAM like ...
> View attachment 824340
> 
> 
> does it do this, do that, do this that ... this that ... this that ...
> com'on man, are we not done with this?



The version UAE wants to buy has all of that plus inflight ice cream dispenser.

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## baqai

WarKa DaNG said:


> Does the PAF J-10C have WS-10 TVC engines?



i think even China doesn't have TVC in active duty, it was used for demo purposes only, can someone correct me?

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## Bleek

baqai said:


> i think even China doesn't have TVC in active duty, it was used for demo purposes only, can someone correct me?


Yes, it was tested on one J-10B airframe at an airshow. 

None in service

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## Development C&P

In order to celebrate the J10C of Pakistan finally served,
Special disclosure of this original size version of this painting~


Uncompressed original picture：（Size：7680x4320, 9.04MB）


https://wx4.sinaimg.cn/large/007Kimevgy1h060axhnd6j35xc3c01l5.jpg




Art by. 奇圆JeffHoly



https://weibo.com/7097016651/Ljfbhw0RM?refer_flag=1001030103_




https://weibo.com/2149981442?refer_flag=1001030103_

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## alikazmi007

Development C&P said:


> View attachment 824343
> 
> In order to celebrate the J10C of Pakistan finally served,
> Special disclosure of this original size version of this painting~
> 
> 
> Uncompressed original picture：（Size：7680x4320,10MB）
> 
> 
> https://wx4.sinaimg.cn/large/007Kimevgy1h060axhnd6j35xc3c01l5.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Art by. 奇圆JeffHoly
> 
> 
> 
> https://weibo.com/7097016651/Ljfbhw0RM?refer_flag=1001030103_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://weibo.com/2149981442?refer_flag=1001030103_



As Allama Iqbal (RA) said:

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## Princeps Senatus

omi said:


> Currently we have purchased the PL-15e because every missile has a limited shelf life. Any Enstein can figure this out.
> 
> The Indians dont yet have the Meteors for their Rafale and wont have them till a few more years.
> 
> When that time comes, We will get the PL-15s. Hope this helps everybody


they have meteors


----------



## NA71

WarKa DaNG said:


> Does the PAF J-10C have WS-10 TVC engines?


duplicate Question Counter is at 12567.....😁

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## Broccoli

baqai said:


> i think even China doesn't have TVC in active duty, it was used for demo purposes only, can someone correct me?



TVC engines were seen as good addition in 1980-2000 but then helmet mounted sights combined with more manurevable short-range missiles become reality so TVCs only pros are good looking stunts in airshows.

TVC engines biggest negatives are higher cost and weight.

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## White and Green with M/S

WarKa DaNG said:


> Does the PAF J-10C have WS-10 TVC engines?


Your simple ANSWER IS NO



Broccoli said:


> TVC engines were seen as good addition in 1980-2000 but then helmet mounted sights combined with more manurevable short-range missiles become reality so TVCs only pros are good looking stunts in airshows.
> 
> TVC engines biggest negatives are higher cost and weight.


And TVC ENGINES are MORE MAINTENANCE PRONE

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## omi

Princeps Senatus said:


> they have meteors


Source?


----------



## MIRauf

NA71 said:


> duplicate Question Counter is at 12567.....😁


Well some are holding out on sliver of hope that sooner or later someone will say 'YES' to TVC on the PAF JS-10CP and most of their dreams will come true.

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## Princeps Senatus

omi said:


> Source?

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## mshan44



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## Readerdefence

Scorpiooo said:


> Or can sit in back seat of JFT B this time


Hi your are right he can but I doubt he will as jf17 dual seat 
was there last time also as being the ace fighter of PAF F16 always lead let’s see how it will be this time 
thank you


----------



## Readerdefence

NA71 said:


> Shaikh Rasheed today in an interview said ....J10C in 25 numbers will fly on 23rd March and may be Chinese FM will also witness the flypast.


Hi SR is always open mouth as been warned by PM before too when he intentionally reveal about J10c induction though this announcement suppose to come through PM or DM but you know about SR 
so now Fminister will be after him including PM too😀
thank you


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Same helmet used by J-10C and J-20

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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1461737887578755&id=100012276733372

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## ahtan_china

cobra & falling leaf movement

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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> I put my life at risk for others every time *I hop on the 405 freeway *as well if that counts lol.



Hi,

Because you love pain.


----------



## Deino

ahtan_china said:


> cobra & falling leaf movement
> 
> View attachment 824475




Oh come on ... mixing these two vastly different types is simply lying!  

The J-10CE delivered to Pakistan don't have a TVC-engines and as such, they cannot fly this "cobra & falling leaf" maneuver.

So stop spreading faked video-clips!

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## Aamir Hussain

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Because you love pain.


110 is also a bummer!!


----------



## omi

Princeps Senatus said:


> View attachment 824390


That looks like an Italian flag to me

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## White and Green with M/S

Can somebody please clarify me that Pakistani J-10CE have fixed refueling probe just like jf-17 or it has retractable air refueling probe just like J-20?


----------



## Zarrar Alvi

Some of the Lads here are saying that we should have opted for Western tech . Nope as they are not willing to sell the top of the line weapons to Our forces. Be happy that China is always present to fulfill our Military needs and that's where our Future lyes . Only the American fan boys will Moan about our relations with the Chinese and Russia etc.

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## Deino

White and Green with M/S said:


> Can somebody please clarify me that Pakistani J-10CE have fixed refueling probe just like jf-17 or it has retractable air refueling probe just like J-20?




I think that is common understanding ... they are fixed but detachable, so far NO J-10 has a retractable probe.

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## White and Green with M/S

omi said:


> That looks like an Italian flag to me


Italy don't have RAFALE BROTHER, they've EUROFIGHTER BRO

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## araz

mudas777 said:


> I know you told me their are 11 hard points but I need 14 politicians hung with the hard points, not even one less.


2 trips and you can have 22.
A



White and Green with M/S said:


> Can somebody please clarify me that Pakistani J-10CE have fixed refueling probe just like jf-17 or it has retractable air refueling probe just like J-20?


Look at the pictures. If this was a retractable fueling probe would you have seen it sticking out like it does?
A

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## Deino

HydNizam said:


> J10C unit price 42 million




Based on an obscure YT-channel?!!

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## Development C&P

Why Pakistan’s New J-10C Fighters Have F-22-Style ‘Golden’ Stealth Canopies​Military Watch Magazine
March-14th-2022





__





Military Watch Magazine







militarywatchmagazine.com






In the 13 years between the entry into service of the first J-10A fighters in 2005, and the latest most advanced variant the J-10C in the spring of 2018, the design has seen radical improvements going from a relatively basic fourth-generation jet into an aircraft with fifth generation capabilities in all aspects of performance other than its lack of stealth. Most notable improvements have included entirely new avionics, with new network centric warfare capabilities, helmet mounted sights and electronic warfare countermeasures making a very significant difference to combat potential, as well as integration of an AESA radar paired with PL-15 and PL-10 air to air missiles that are overwhelmingly more capable than the missiles of the original J-10, and the use of thrust vectoring engines. While not built around a stealth airframe like the fifth generation J-20, the ‘4++ generation’ J-10C has nevertheless seen its radar cross section reduced drastically complementing reductions to its radar section from its new sensor suite to make it more difficult to target at long ranges. 








J-10C with PL-15 and PL-10 Missiles



With an estimated 200 J-10C fighters entering service in the Chinese People’s Liberation Army over four years from March 2018, the aircraft saw its first exports confirmed in December 2021 with Pakistan expected to by several dozen and possibly over 100 fighters. The first of these landed in the country on March 4, and were formally inducted into service on March 11. Pakistan’s J-10Cs are considered far more likely to see combat than those in China itself, with the Pakistani Air Force engaging in combat far more frequently whether in skirmishes with neighbouring India or conducting airstrikes against various insurgent groups domestically. The Pakistani purchase has thus drawn new attention to the fighter’s features, as has the possible sale of the J-10C to Iran which has been widely speculated, with the fighters considered the most likely to equip the Iranian Air Force should it seek to modernise its fleet with imported jets. 








Pakistani Air Force J-10C with PL-15 and PL-10 Missiles



*One feature of the J-10C which has gained considerable attention in Iran is the fighter’s ‘golden canopy,’ which is highly unusual for fourth generation aircraft but was previously seen on the J-20 and its American competitor the F-22 Raptor. *Under some light conditions J-10C canopies appear golden due to an Indium Tin Oxide electroconductive film coating between the layers of optical glass, which provide this colouring and serve to scatter radio waves from the canopy to reduce the fighter’s radar cross section. It does so while maintaining transparency to visible radiation. The feature represents one of several next generation technologies being newly introduced into Pakistani service, and which it is the first in the region to benefit from. With the J-10C expected to form the elite of the Pakistani fleet for years to come, its ‘golden’ canopy serves to symbolise the aircraft’s status much as it does for the F-22 and J-20 in U.S. and Chinese service.

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## Chak Bamu

Ghessan said:


> ha ha ha
> i can commit 13 using dual racks and that's it.
> 
> by the way which 14 you have list down?


Do not extent OT. What does this have to do with J-10 thread?

There should be a clamp down on political posts in Pakistan Defense & Military Section of the forum.

If this OT extends to naming politicians to hang, someone will put this onto Twitter & that will harden the negative perception about PDF further. Mods & Forum admins should think if such is a desirable outcome 😡

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## Ghessan

Chak Bamu said:


> Do not extent OT. What does this have to do with J-10 thread?
> 
> There should be a clamp down on political posts in Pakistan Defense & Military Section of the forum.
> 
> If this OT extends to naming politicians to hang, someone will put this onto Twitter & that will harden the negative perception about PDF further. Mods & Forum admins should think if such is a desirable outcome 😡



i delete my post

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## Pakistan Space Agency

m52k85 said:


> @Raider 21 and other people, just out of interest, would you know which aircraft WC Imtiaz and his entourage (picutred above) are coming from?



Why is the water being showered on the aircraft? Is it a normal thing to do after a flight?

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## Ali_Baba

Pakistan Has Taken Delivery Of Its First Chinese-Made J-10 Fighters


The multi-role fighters may well be joined by as many as three different armed drones as Pakistan seeks to gain an advantage over India’s military.




www.thedrive.com







Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Why is the water being showered on the aircraft? Is it a normal thing to do after a flight?
> 
> View attachment 824538



Tradition - for a new type of aircraft being inducted etc..



Development C&P said:


> View attachment 824343
> 
> In order to celebrate the J10C of Pakistan finally served,
> Special disclosure of this original size version of this painting~
> 
> 
> Uncompressed original picture：（Size：7680x4320,10MB）
> 
> 
> https://wx4.sinaimg.cn/large/007Kimevgy1h060axhnd6j35xc3c01l5.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Art by. 奇圆JeffHoly
> 
> 
> 
> https://weibo.com/7097016651/Ljfbhw0RM?refer_flag=1001030103_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://weibo.com/2149981442?refer_flag=1001030103_



I am at a place where i cannot access download links from China - did anyone manage to download and upload to a western site ?


----------



## The Terminator

PAF fighter jets including J-10C flying in Islamabad. For those who were saying that we would have to maintain social distance between Lockheed Martin F-16s and CAC J-10Cs just watch this video. They are blowing air and exhaust fumes on each other 😜

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## siegecrossbow

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Why is the water being showered on the aircraft? Is it a normal thing to do after a flight?
> 
> View attachment 824538



Water arches are used in induction ceremonies around the world. F-35 received it as well.

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## Development C&P

Ali_Baba said:


> Pakistan Has Taken Delivery Of Its First Chinese-Made J-10 Fighters
> 
> 
> The multi-role fighters may well be joined by as many as three different armed drones as Pakistan seeks to gain an advantage over India’s military.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedrive.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tradition - for a new type of aircraft being inducted etc..
> 
> 
> 
> I am at a place where i cannot access download links from China - did anyone manage to download and upload to a western site ?


Updated uploaded, 2 RAR compressed package files containing the original size picture.

On page 400 # 5,997

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## Windjammer



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## dranger22

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Why is the water being showered on the aircraft? Is it a normal thing to do after a flight?
> 
> View attachment 824538


Every Airforce in the world does it

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## Windjammer

Into the loop.

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## Pakistan Space Agency

siegecrossbow said:


> Water arches are used in induction ceremonies around the world. F-35 received it as well.





dranger22 said:


> Every Airforce in the world does it


Thanks. I was just curious whether it was for ceremonial purposes or something else.

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## LeGenD

Development C&P said:


> View attachment 824530​Why Pakistan’s New J-10C Fighters Have F-22-Style ‘Golden’ Stealth Canopies​Military Watch Magazine
> March-14th-2022
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Military Watch Magazine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> militarywatchmagazine.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the 13 years between the entry into service of the first J-10A fighters in 2005, and the latest most advanced variant the J-10C in the spring of 2018, the design has seen radical improvements going from a relatively basic fourth-generation jet into an aircraft with fifth generation capabilities in all aspects of performance other than its lack of stealth. Most notable improvements have included entirely new avionics, with new network centric warfare capabilities, helmet mounted sights and electronic warfare countermeasures making a very significant difference to combat potential, as well as integration of an AESA radar paired with PL-15 and PL-10 air to air missiles that are overwhelmingly more capable than the missiles of the original J-10, and the use of thrust vectoring engines. While not built around a stealth airframe like the fifth generation J-20, the ‘4++ generation’ J-10C has nevertheless seen its radar cross section reduced drastically complementing reductions to its radar section from its new sensor suite to make it more difficult to target at long ranges.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-10C with PL-15 and PL-10 Missiles
> 
> 
> 
> With an estimated 200 J-10C fighters entering service in the Chinese People’s Liberation Army over four years from March 2018, the aircraft saw its first exports confirmed in December 2021 with Pakistan expected to by several dozen and possibly over 100 fighters. The first of these landed in the country on March 4, and were formally inducted into service on March 11. Pakistan’s J-10Cs are considered far more likely to see combat than those in China itself, with the Pakistani Air Force engaging in combat far more frequently whether in skirmishes with neighbouring India or conducting airstrikes against various insurgent groups domestically. The Pakistani purchase has thus drawn new attention to the fighter’s features, as has the possible sale of the J-10C to Iran which has been widely speculated, with the fighters considered the most likely to equip the Iranian Air Force should it seek to modernise its fleet with imported jets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani Air Force J-10C with PL-15 and PL-10 Missiles
> 
> 
> 
> *One feature of the J-10C which has gained considerable attention in Iran is the fighter’s ‘golden canopy,’ which is highly unusual for fourth generation aircraft but was previously seen on the J-20 and its American competitor the F-22 Raptor. *Under some light conditions J-10C canopies appear golden due to an Indium Tin Oxide electroconductive film coating between the layers of optical glass, which provide this colouring and serve to scatter radio waves from the canopy to reduce the fighter’s radar cross section. It does so while maintaining transparency to visible radiation. The feature represents one of several next generation technologies being newly introduced into Pakistani service, and which it is the first in the region to benefit from. With the J-10C expected to form the elite of the Pakistani fleet for years to come, its ‘golden’ canopy serves to symbolise the aircraft’s status much as it does for the F-22 and J-20 in U.S. and Chinese service.



1. Golden Canopy was introduced in EA-6B Prowler.

2. J-10C is 4+ generation. 

J-20 is equipped with different (more capable) sensor systems and higher level of sensor fusion.


----------



## MIRauf

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Thanks. I was just curious whether it was for ceremonial purposes or something else.


Maritime missions also require washing off the salt water, done little differently.

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## Ali_Baba

Development C&P said:


> Updated uploaded, 2 RAR compressed package files containing the original size picture.
> 
> On page 400 # 5,997



BEAUTIFUL - thanks so much - i will get this printed off on a nice metallic print !


----------



## Broccoli

When do we get to see cockpit pics? I think many people, me included, are more interest to see if they one big or multiple displays.

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## Windjammer



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## WinterFangs



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## NA71

Plz someone help... Give us bullet points of this uncle analysis of J-10c and Block 3.

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## Ek620

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Same helmet used by J-10C and J-20
> View attachment 824415
> 
> View attachment 824417


So it's safe to say that it has HMD


----------



## siegecrossbow

WinterFangs said:


> View attachment 824620



I’d kill for a high def image of this one.

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## Path-Finder

Will J10 have a Conformal fuel tank like F16 in da futua?


----------



## Windjammer

siegecrossbow said:


> I’d kill for a high def image of this one.

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## WinterFangs

siegecrossbow said:


> I’d kill for a high def image of this one.

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## Windjammer



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## WinterFangs



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## siegecrossbow

Pakistan has leaked more awesome images/videos of the J-10C in a month than China has in 5 years...

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## TaimiKhan

siegecrossbow said:


> Pakistan has leaked more awesome images/videos of the J-10C in a month than China has in 5 years...



Another thing is that all these years we have been seeing J10 in PLAAF colors, so all of a sudden J10 coming in PAF colors have made this aircraft look more beautiful and awesome. 

This is i believe the first true 4th gen chinese aircraft which has been exported. 

We have seen other canard design jets in different airforces of the world, but J10 is the last of this canard design aircraft of this generation which has come to another airforce outside of China, thus this difference is making J10 much more beautiful.

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## ZY-CN-CA

According to US media, one feature of the J-10CE that has attracted considerable attention is the fighter's "golden canopy", which is very rare on fourth-generation aircraft, but in the J-20 and the US F-22 "Raptor". "I've seen it on a fighter jet. Under certain lighting conditions, the canopy of the J-10CE appears golden yellow due to an indium tin oxide conductive film coating between the optical glass layers. This color coating is mainly used to scatter radio waves from the cockpit to reduce the fighter's radar cross-section.

A window member composed of a transparent resin or inorganic glass with a transparent conducting film such as gold or ITO (indium tin oxide) coated thereon, is used as an electromagnetic wave shield window for stealth aircraft. Applying such transparent conducting film enables, while maintaining transparency to visible radiation, both a radio wave stealth property which scatters radio waves in various directions so as not to be detected by radar, and an electromagnetic wave shield property which prevents harmful electromagnetic waves, except for visible radiation, from invasion into an aircraft.

This feature is one of several new technologies introduced in Pakistan, the first country in the region to benefit from the technology. As the J-10CE is expected to become an elite fighter in the Pakistan Air Force in the coming years, its golden canopy symbolizes the aircraft's status.

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## Bleek

NA71 said:


> Plz someone help... Give us bullet points of this uncle analysis of J-10c and Block 3.


If someone could translate the key points please

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## RAMPAGE

Has the PAF shown any PL-15s yet?


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

RAMPAGE said:


> Has the PAF shown any PL-15s yet?


Seems so (via PAF induction vid)

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## RAMPAGE

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Seems so (via PAF induction vid)
> 
> View attachment 824693


Nice. Have we decided what the range is?


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## mike2000 is back

Interesting. Just seeing this news. 
4th generation fighter jets are quite expensive and costly to maintain. From my research Pakistan defence budget is so small, where do they get money to afford such expensive military equipment like fighter jets , frigates, submarines etc? 

Seriously this silly border disputes and enmity in south Asia is really taxing for these poor countries as well. Takes alot of focus and energy off government effort in fighting poverty and focusing on economic policies for growth and draws public and institutional attention away from development policies. Unfortunate actually.

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## WinterFangs

WinterFangs said:


> View attachment 824669


Better quality image:

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## Gripen9

NA71 said:


> he advocates for 04


JF-17 blk3 --- 1 slot open

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## Nefarious

mike2000 is back said:


> Interesting. Just seeing this news.
> 4th generation fighter jets are quite expensive and costly to maintain. From my research Pakistan defence budget is so small, where do they get money to afford such expensive military equipment like fighter jets , frigates, submarines etc?
> 
> Seriously this silly border disputes and enmity in south Asia is really taxing for these poor countries as well. Takes alot of focus and energy off government effort in fighting poverty and focusing on economic policies for growth and draws public and institutional attention away from development policies. Unfortunate actually



Indeed a shame although every country has the right to defend itself rich or poor...imagine we had a several times bigger religious nutjob neighbour next door dead set on screwing us 24/7... rich or poor we would have to sacrifice regardless. Freedom isn't cheap.

"if you want peace, prepare for war" - Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus

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## Zibago

mike2000 is back said:


> 4th generation fighter jets are quite expensive and costly to maintain. From my research Pakistan defence budget is so small, where do they get money to afford such expensive military equipment like fighter jets , frigates, submarines etc?


Devil is in the detail








Most of our airforce doesnt consist of top of the line 4.5 gen fighters but older planes and our own JF-17 to solve the problem of a tight budget



mike2000 is back said:


> Seriously this silly border disputes and enmity in south Asia is really taxing for these poor countries as well. Takes alot of focus and energy off government effort in fighting poverty and focusing on economic policies for growth and draws public and institutional attention away from development policies. Unfortunate actually.


Well its just that centuries of unresolved issues do morph in ugly ways

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## WinterFangs

Nefarious said:


> Indeed a shame although every country has the right to defend itself rich or poor...imagine we had a several times bigger religious nutjob neighbour next door dead set on screwing us 24/7... rich or poor we would have to sacrifice regardless. Freedom isn't cheap.
> 
> "if you want peace, prepare for war" - Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus


Already got France, no Wonder india and France work so well together.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*Indus Dragon



*

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zibago said:


> Devil is in the detail
> View attachment 824701
> View attachment 824702
> 
> 
> Most of our airforce doesnt consist of top of the line 4.5 gen fighters but older planes and our own JF-17 to solve the problem of a tight budget
> 
> 
> Well its just that centuries of unresolved issues do morph in ugly ways


The Wikipedia list isn't accurate, but even by its count, most of the active PAF fighter fleet is 4/4+-generation. However, the 4/4+ ratio is actually higher because we don't have that many legacy aircraft left these days.

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## Zibago

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Wikipedia list isn't accurate, but even by its count, most of the active PAF fighter fleet is 4/4+-generation. However, the 4/4+ ratio is actually higher because we don't have that many legacy aircraft left these days.


Can block 1 and block 2 JF-17 really be considered 4+ gen?


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## Ali_Baba

WinterFangs said:


> View attachment 824669



J10CE is the new king - it should be in the lead !! Otherwise a beautiful picture.



FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Indus Dragon
> View attachment 824703
> *



Build quality of the PAF J10CE's is excellent - perfect almost.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Zibago said:


> Can block 1 and block 2 JF-17 really be considered 4+ gen?


They're definitely 4th-gen, e.g: multi-mode radars (with TWS, etc), ECM (albeit via pods), integrated EW, etc.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## siegecrossbow

WinterFangs said:


> Better quality image:
> View attachment 824699

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## m52k85

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Why is the water being showered on the aircraft? Is it a normal thing to do after a flight?
> 
> View attachment 824538


I think its called a water salute. They did it for the first commercial or first A380 or something at the opening of the new Islamabad airport also.

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## m52k85

mike2000 is back said:


> 4th generation fighter jets are quite expensive and costly to maintain. From my research Pakistan defence budget is so small, where do they get money to afford such expensive military equipment like fighter jets , frigates, submarines etc?


I have often thought about the same, but haven't really got down to crunching numbers. If you pick up countries with comparable budgets (10-14 bils) that have good quality stuff, you have vastly smaller militarys, see Algeria for example.

I suspect its a combination of things including buying 'capability' as opposed to 'tarmac toys', some gains due to inhouse (keep in mind the effect of cheap labour - this is a well documented effect studied a lot when US and Russian militaries are compared), and finally the Chinese effect that has come in the last 15 or so years which has meant a lot of the equipment is on finance terms and will be fully paid for down the road.

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## MastanKhan

Aamir Hussain said:


> 110 is also a bummer!!


And so is 91 and 60. Moved out of socal


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## Goenitz

@denel brother where are you.. hope you are all well..

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## waz

Windjammer said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1461737887578755&id=100012276733372



The climb rate on the third jet is amazing.

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## araz

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Why is the water being showered on the aircraft? Is it a normal thing to do after a flight?
> 
> View attachment 824538


Ghusl karna zaroori hai bhai. 
A

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## waz

Guys can we please leave the range of the PL-15 out of this, no more on the TVC engine which has been proved to be false already and just focus on the topic at hand!












Does anyone if the cockpit has bluetooth connectivity to the pilot's Iphone or Samsung so he can download Kenny Loggins;

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## TheDarkKnight

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 824231


No offense, but who agrees that these look way better than PLAAF J10s?

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## ghazi52

...




.

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## Path-Finder

waz said:


> Does anyone if the cockpit has bluetooth connectivity to the pilot's Iphone or Samsung so he can download Kenny Loggins;


I feel old.

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## Legio XI The Ironclads

Hey does anyone know if the J10's get squadron specific tail art? 
Also i believe no:15 squadron traditionally had red checker marks on either nose or tail of their previous types. 
Cobra on the tail and red checkers high on the tail woule be cool.

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## Signalian

Will there be a transition from DTS-03 Data link with speed 2 Mbps and range 400 km to Link-17 for ZDK-03 connectivity ?

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## GOAT

You guys are on a roll with the pictures and videos, keep ‘em coming!

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## Signalian

There was also a talk of ARW9101A, but that was in 2011 and was related to JF-17.

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## Big_bud

Zarrar Alvi said:


> Some of the Lads here are saying that we should have opted for Western tech . Nope as they are not willing to sell the top of the line weapons to Our forces. Be happy that China is always present to fulfill our Military needs and that's where our Future lyes . Only the American fan boys will Moan about our relations with the Chinese and Russia etc.





*This is the reason we will never go for Western equipment under current world order/scenario:*







Bill tabled in US house to declare Pakistan 'state sponsor of terrorism’​Bill introduced by Rep Perry seeks to impose restrictions on US foreign assistance, a ban on defence exports and sales


News DeskMarch 11, 2022





Representative Scott Perry speaks during a House Foreign Affairs Committee hearing in Washington, DC, US, March 10, 2021. PHOTO: REUTERS
A US lawmaker has introduced a bill titled “Stopping Pakistani Terror Act” in the Congress that seeks to designate Pakistan as a state sponsor of terrorism.
The bill tabled by US Congressman Scott Perry on March 8 read, “To provide for the designation of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan as a State Sponsor of Terrorism, and for other purposes.”
The bill introduced in the House of Representatives has been referred to the Committee on Foreign Affairs.
“Effective on the date that is 30 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan shall be deemed to be a country the government of which the [US] Secretary of State determines has repeatedly provided support for international terrorism..,” read the bill.
The main categories of sanctions include restrictions on US foreign assistance, a ban on defence exports and sales, financial transactions and others.
The US government will be prohibited to export or “otherwise providing (by sale, lease or loan, grant, or other means), directly or indirectly, any munitions item” to a country subjected to the sanctions mentioned in the bill.
*Also read: Bill moved in US Senate to sanction Taliban, supporters*
“[US] shall suspend delivery to such country of any such item pursuant to any such transaction which has not been completed at the time the Secretary of State makes the determination..”
The development comes at a time when Pakistan has been facing immense pressure from the West to condemn Russia’s attack on Ukraine.
However, Pakistan has refused to criticise Moscow's actions but it has called for resolving the dispute through dialogue and diplomacy.
Last year, a group of high-profile US senators – including a former presidential nominee – has moved a bill in the US Senate seeking imposition of sanctions on the Afghan Taliban that could also potentially extend to Pakistan.
The bill, titled ‘Afghanistan Counterterrorism, Oversight, and Accountability Act’, triggered an angry rebuke from a senior member of Pakistan’s cabinet.
The 22 lawmakers, all from the Republican Party, introduced the bill that requires “the imposition of sanctions with respect to the Taliban and persons assisting the Taliban in Afghanistan, and for other purposes.”
Pertaining to Pakistan, the bill elaborated that “the first report… shall include – (1) an assessment of support by state and non-state actors, including the Government of Pakistan, for the Taliban between 2001 and 2020, including the provision of sanctuary space, financial support, intelligence support, logistics and medical support, training, equipping, and tactical, operational, or strategic direction; (2) an assessment of support by state and non-state actors, including the Government of Pakistan, for the 2021 offensive of the Taliban that toppled the Government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan… (3) an assessment of support by state and non-state actors, including the Government of Pakistan, for the September 2021 offensive of the Taliban against the Panjshir Valley and the Afghan resistance.”







*Source:*

https://tribune.com.pk/story/234734...o-declare-pakistan-state-sponsor-of-terrorism



And then we have people claiming each and everything is including F16s & EFTs are available!

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## Beast

Raider 21 said:


> It was common on PAF F-16s in the 1980s


Are you sure? There is no such technology in the 1980s. The first to have is F-22 raptor. This is no anti- reflective coating.

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## Raider 21

Beast said:


> Are you sure? There is no such technology in the 1980s. The first to have is F-22 raptor. This is no anti- reflective coating.


I'm probably confusing it with the Viper canopy that was there for UV and radar protection. 85728 used to have that style of canopy.

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## Char

mike2000 is back said:


> Interesting. Just seeing this news.
> 4th generation fighter jets are quite expensive and costly to maintain. From my research Pakistan defence budget is so small, where do they get money to afford such expensive military equipment like fighter jets , frigates, submarines etc?
> 
> Seriously this silly border disputes and enmity in south Asia is really taxing for these poor countries as well. Takes alot of focus and energy off government effort in fighting poverty and focusing on economic policies for growth and draws public and institutional attention away from development policies. Unfortunate actually.



It is much cheaper than the French Rafale, and Pakistan can overhaul the jf17 by itself. These facilities and experience are conducive to maintaining the j10ce.


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## Big_bud

mike2000 is back said:


> Interesting. Just seeing this news.
> 4th generation fighter jets are quite expensive and costly to maintain. From my research Pakistan defence budget is so small, where do they get money to afford such expensive military equipment like fighter jets , frigates, submarines etc?
> 
> Seriously this silly border disputes and enmity in south Asia is really taxing for these poor countries as well. Takes alot of focus and energy off government effort in fighting poverty and focusing on economic policies for growth and draws public and institutional attention away from development policies. Unfortunate actually.



Costly to maintain bit is also subjective to HR costs. HR cost varies region to region. Most of the PAF's fleet is self maintained by PAF techs, if there are external contractors involved then sure they do charge a lot. I am sure our F16s cost us way too much per flight hour as compared to JF17s & J10c.

Here's an interesting cost per hour comparison from a website, I know this won't be 100%% true but I'm sure the difference can be huge, just like this one says it to be:

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## Deino

Ek620 said:


> So it's safe to say that it has HMD




It has but this is not the one with a HMD, it‘s the standard TK-31 helmet

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## MastanKhan

Beast said:


> Are you sure? There is no such technology in the 1980s. The first to have is F-22 raptor. This is no anti- reflective coating.



Hi,

This gold plating to keep the glass cold from sun.

It is old technology.

It has been used in air conditioned train coaches in the trains for ages---. First time I noticed them---. Wilbur Smith in one of his books wrote about the Gold coast train in south africa in one of his books running in the 60's.

I am old enough to remember the air conditioned coaches of the 60's and 70's in pakistan railways---because I had the priviledge of travelling in them a lot.

Those coaches were built in the early 60's by the French

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## SQ8

Beast said:


> Are you sure? There is no such technology in the 1980s. The first to have is F-22 raptor. This is no anti- reflective coating.


Gold plating for radar reflectivity has been used since the mid 80s. Boeing filed a patent for gold plated canopy to reflect radar rays in the late 60s.

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## TopGun786



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## NA71

very interesting tweet regarding our J-10C:
(Look at CH4 numbers as well)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504213262954643456

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## TopGun786

NA71 said:


> very interesting tweet regarding our J-10C:
> (Look at CH4 numbers as well)
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504213262954643456


So 25 J10c at 56m dollars per jet.

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## jaybird

Bleek said:


> If someone could translate the key points please


Actually this uncle only talks about basic stuff we all know already. Nothing really interesting.


_"Foreign media comparing J-10 with JF-17, even though JF-17 Block III is already a very powerful fighter jet, Why is Pakistan still wants J-10C?"

China show the world with it's 5th generation stealth aircraft J-20's comprehensive combat capability already surpass Russia and Europe in many area in regard to fighter jet technology. It's now capable of competing/rival with the U.S in the area.

But let's compare the J-10 and JF-17 with the original version first inducted in 2006 and 2008 respectively. And J-10C as the newest version was inducted by PLAAF in the spring of 2018, with new active electronically scanned array radar, avionics, and Electronic Warfare (EW) Systems and WS-10B engine. Plus new long range dual pulse rocket motor PL-15 air-to-air missile and short range PL-10 AAM. Better flight envelope than JF-17 block III, can carry heavier weapon load, bigger radar and weapon system, more powerful engine and thrust therefore higher agility and the best climb rate among single engine fighter jets.

JF-17 block III first flight happened in 2019 and as the newest version of JF-17 also introduced similar upgrades compared to the J-10C. Although as a lightweight aircraft it use less powerful thrust engine. But with PL-10 plus helmet-mounted display(HMD) combo it can alleviate this weak point in dog fight. And PL-15 as the most advance and dangerous long range aam currently in service due to it's aesa seeker and 200km plus range, it's still a potent threat especially in BVR. 

For air force who are low on budget but wants to maintain larger fleets of fighter jets, JF-17 block III is a better choice comparing the benefit and value for the money due to price of the jets and also much lower maintenance cost. Pakistan will probably have a much large fleet of JF-17 as the backbone of the airforce, and J-10C will form the elite/spear of the force replacing the ageing F-16. 

JF-17 block III will also be much more compelling to international customers who are seeking to upgrade their air force as the new version Block III is much more advanced but still low cost to maintain. 

*Conclusion:* J-10C is obviously a more capable aircraft comparing to JF-17 block III due to size that it can carry bigger and more powerful radar and engine. But both fighter jets are very good in their own right. Which fighter jets fits your need better all depends on how much money is in your pocket._

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## NA71

And this also confirms that the deal is for 25 jets (it was speculated that the numbers might raise upto 60 or more)

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## jaybird

NA71 said:


> And this also confirms that the deal is for 25 jets (it was speculated that the numbers might raise upto 60 or more)


So, Sheikh Rasheed not only accurate with J-10C deal, but even the number of jets is correct!

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## NA71

jaybird said:


> So, Sheikh Rasheed not only accurate with J-10C deal, but even the number of jets is correct!


so, Shiakh sb would also be right on J-20C

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## Beast

SQ8 said:


> Gold plating for radar reflectivity has been used since the mid 80s. Boeing filed a patent for gold plated canopy to reflect radar rays in the late 60s.


Sure the patent is filed but I am sure F-22 raptor is first to use that. Plus, generation and generation upgrade. The same radar reflective today is surely not the one used on 80s. Same as the stealth of F-117 in the 90s is no equivalent to today on F-35 and J-20.

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## ahtan_china



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## Big_bud

TopGun786 said:


> View attachment 824804



What an amazing pic! wow, looking seski!



NA71 said:


> very interesting tweet regarding our J-10C:
> (Look at CH4 numbers as well)
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504213262954643456



So 56 Million a piece! That's a big news! Wow!


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## Big_bud

Apparently Indonesia was offered 48 F16 block 70/72s at 4 Billion $ so 83 Billion USD per unit. At 56 million per unit its not much cheaper than the latest and greatest F16! Only about ~30% cheaper? I think we can be sure that it is no budget variant of J10c! Its the proper deal!

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## mymeaningislion

weqi said:


> well said
> 
> I experienced in accountancy profession after getting advance level of certification IFRS (International Financial Reporting Standards) when I given interview the interviewer was Chartered Accountant with 10 of expertise on salary of Pkr 350,000 I had Just Undergraduate Plus certification in IFRS he try to play in this subject while interview but finally got every answer and failed his every tac tics later joining i was awarded Rs.35,000 salary and same humiliating attitude what was my fault i learn prove myself didn't had enmity why this
> 
> THIS IS HUMAN JEALOUSY WE CAN FACE ANYWHERE WE DON'T KNOW


Bro its ironic that a seasoned CA did that, but its normal that a professional will judge the applicant with little experience to answer all questions which the interviewer him or herself took great deal of efforts to solve. The most important resource in any organization is human resource and in pakistan unfortunately people are grinded not developed. and through this rough regime many personality scares are left on the individual. 

Its present in every organization, even in army too...

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## TopGun786

NA71 said:


> And this also confirms that the deal is for 25 jets (it was speculated that the numbers might raise upto 60 or more)


Yes, a bit disappointing but I really believe it will go higher next year. These 25 jets deal is for 2022, I beleive.



NA71 said:


> so, Shiakh sb would also be right on J-20C

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## Salza

TopGun786 said:


> Yes, a bit disappointing but I really believe it will go higher next year. These 25 jets deal is for 2022, I beleive.


Clearly PAF will go for another squadron in an year or two. We have received 6 for now, remaining 19 will be delivered through out 2022.

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## TopGun786

Big_bud said:


> Apparently Indonesia was offered 48 F16 block 70/72s at 4 Billion $ so 83 Billion USD per unit. At 56 million per unit its not much cheaper than the latest and greatest F16! Only about ~30% cheaper? I think we can be sure that it is no budget variant of J10c! Its the proper deal!


Many other cost factors are also involved. Indonesia's deal maybe just fly away cost and not with arms and other supportive packages. Political factors are also involved and if I am not mistaken the same F16 variant was offered 100+ million dollars to some other customer. Also, our 56m per piece deals most likely include arms, training, and other facilities.

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## Falcon26

NA71 said:


> very interesting tweet regarding our J-10C:
> (Look at CH4 numbers as well)
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504213262954643456



Speculation based on Sheikh Rashid’s comments. SIPRI relies on media reports & publicly available information to make its assessments.

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## Windjammer



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*Bomburst plus Flares.......*

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504308609617965060

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Iron Shrappenel

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *Bomburst plus Flares.......*
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504308609617965060


Ahhh i would wished for the opposite... J-10 leading and the F-16s flanking... Kind of like the handing of the torch

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## Windjammer

ahtan_china said:


> View attachment 824819


Nothing unusual as the Viper engaged it's AB as it pulls up to go ballistic while the J-10s lights them a few seconds later as they make a break.

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## xuxu1457

The J-10 has a much larger nose than the Rafale.

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## Jinn Baba

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 824848



Finally! Thought I found my new profile pic, until I saw your's

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## Dil Pakistan

Big_bud said:


> *This is the reason we will never go for Western equipment under current world order/scenario:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bill tabled in US house to declare Pakistan 'state sponsor of terrorism’​Bill introduced by Rep Perry seeks to impose restrictions on US foreign assistance, a ban on defence exports and sales
> 
> 
> News DeskMarch 11, 2022
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Representative Scott Perry speaks during a House Foreign Affairs Committee hearing in Washington, DC, US, March 10, 2021. PHOTO: REUTERS
> A US lawmaker has introduced a bill titled “Stopping Pakistani Terror Act” in the Congress that seeks to designate Pakistan as a state sponsor of terrorism.
> The bill tabled by US Congressman Scott Perry on March 8 read, “To provide for the designation of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan as a State Sponsor of Terrorism, and for other purposes.”
> The bill introduced in the House of Representatives has been referred to the Committee on Foreign Affairs.
> “Effective on the date that is 30 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan shall be deemed to be a country the government of which the [US] Secretary of State determines has repeatedly provided support for international terrorism..,” read the bill.
> The main categories of sanctions include restrictions on US foreign assistance, a ban on defence exports and sales, financial transactions and others.
> The US government will be prohibited to export or “otherwise providing (by sale, lease or loan, grant, or other means), directly or indirectly, any munitions item” to a country subjected to the sanctions mentioned in the bill.
> *Also read: Bill moved in US Senate to sanction Taliban, supporters*
> “[US] shall suspend delivery to such country of any such item pursuant to any such transaction which has not been completed at the time the Secretary of State makes the determination..”
> The development comes at a time when Pakistan has been facing immense pressure from the West to condemn Russia’s attack on Ukraine.
> However, Pakistan has refused to criticise Moscow's actions but it has called for resolving the dispute through dialogue and diplomacy.
> Last year, a group of high-profile US senators – including a former presidential nominee – has moved a bill in the US Senate seeking imposition of sanctions on the Afghan Taliban that could also potentially extend to Pakistan.
> The bill, titled ‘Afghanistan Counterterrorism, Oversight, and Accountability Act’, triggered an angry rebuke from a senior member of Pakistan’s cabinet.
> The 22 lawmakers, all from the Republican Party, introduced the bill that requires “the imposition of sanctions with respect to the Taliban and persons assisting the Taliban in Afghanistan, and for other purposes.”
> Pertaining to Pakistan, the bill elaborated that “the first report… shall include – (1) an assessment of support by state and non-state actors, including the Government of Pakistan, for the Taliban between 2001 and 2020, including the provision of sanctuary space, financial support, intelligence support, logistics and medical support, training, equipping, and tactical, operational, or strategic direction; (2) an assessment of support by state and non-state actors, including the Government of Pakistan, for the 2021 offensive of the Taliban that toppled the Government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan… (3) an assessment of support by state and non-state actors, including the Government of Pakistan, for the September 2021 offensive of the Taliban against the Panjshir Valley and the Afghan resistance.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Source:*
> 
> https://tribune.com.pk/story/234734...o-declare-pakistan-state-sponsor-of-terrorism
> 
> 
> 
> And then we have people claiming each and everything is including F16s & EFTs are available!



It is up to us how we squeeze their balls. 

What leverage we have ?

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## siegecrossbow

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 824848



The dual rack is compatible with both PL-15 and PL-10. The real question is whether there is enough space for two dual racks. If so, a 6 PL-15/2 PL-10 loadout is possible.

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## Ali_Baba

NA71 said:


> very interesting tweet regarding our J-10C:
> (Look at CH4 numbers as well)
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504213262954643456



Hopefully the next batch will be the J10D, and so on. The price reflects the initial infrastructure that needs to be setup to support and maintain this jet(though since PAF has the JF17 - there maybe some cross utilisation to reduce costs ).

This is official confirmation that the initial batch is 25 J10CE's to be delivered in 2022. That is now settled.

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## Ali_Baba

siegecrossbow said:


> The dual rack is compatible with both PL-15 and PL-10. The real question is whether there is enough space for two dual racks. If so, a 6 PL-15/2 PL-10 loadout is possible.



Has the question of whether or not the fuel tanks can be jettisoned in combat been resolved?

Additionally - has there ever been any pictures of confirmation that the inner pylons can carry Air-to-Air missiles?

The most logical load out would be central fuel tank - jammers on the fuselage hard points and 2 x Dual Racks with PL15s/SD10s(ie 8 BVRs) and like you suggest with PL-10 on the outer hard points. It is the ideal load-out to duke out a BVR fight with the Rafales given how many BVRs the Rafale can carry.

Let's see - i was surprised to see the picture of the JF17 Block III with 5 x PL-15 missiles as part of it's induction ceremony - so the PAF seems to have moved on from the "2 BVRs missiles are enough mentality". It would be odd if PAF inducted the J10C that can only carry 4 BVRs when it is planning to do more with the JF17 Block III.

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## ghazi52

..





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=378286490823922





.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.




,.,

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## The Terminator

Pakistan Space Agency said:


> Why is the water being showered on the aircraft? Is it a normal thing to do after a flight?
> 
> View attachment 824538


It's a tradition in Air Forces and airlines to do ceremonial water salute on 1st plane or last flight of the the type of the plane.

Here's an interesting video about the dutch F-35 mess up during a water salutation.

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## siegecrossbow

Ali_Baba said:


> Has the question of whether or not the fuel tanks can be jettisoned in combat been resolved?
> 
> Additionally - has there ever been any pictures of confirmation that the inner pylons can carry Air-to-Air missiles?
> 
> The most logical load out would be central fuel tank - jammers on the fuselage hard points and 2 x Dual Racks with PL15s/SD10s(ie 8 BVRs) and like you suggest with PL-10 on the outer hard points. It is the ideal load-out to duke out a BVR fight with the Rafales given how many BVRs the Rafale can carry.
> 
> Let's see - i was surprised to see the picture of the JF17 Block III with 5 x PL-15 missiles as part of it's induction ceremony - so the PAF seems to have moved on from the "2 BVRs missiles are enough mentality". It would be odd if PAF inducted the J10C that can only carry 4 BVRs when it is planning to do more with the JF17 Block III.



Not sure what you mean by fuel tanks can be ejected. Unless they are conformal fuel tanks they are easily jettisoned during combat.

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## ghazi52

,.,.





-.,,

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## The Terminator

MIRauf said:


> Maritime missions also require washing off the salt water, done little differently.
> 
> View attachment 824569
> 
> 
> View attachment 824568


It looks like more of a wash service than a ceremonial water salute. Anti-icing Chemical layers are sprayed on planes before take off but it's entirely for yet another purpose.


----------



## AsianLion




----------



## The Terminator

NA71 said:


> very interesting tweet regarding our J-10C:
> (Look at CH4 numbers as well)
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504213262954643456


So $1.4 Billion divided by 25 means around $56 million a piece. This price may also include PAF specific modifications, training, logistics setup and armament/munitions. And most probably this cost would go down in subsequent orders. 

If this report is accurate then 25 jets are ordered in this fiscal year till June 31st. From July onwards more jets could be ordered in the next budget.

CH-4 have long been inducted. We are getting Turkish TB-2 and Akinci drones as well as our local ones. So Pakistan has quite a big drone force now probably to counter Indian Army formations, SAM batteries and Naval surveillance. As their effectiveness is shown in conflicts like Nagorno Karabakh and Ukraine.

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## The Terminator

NA71 said:


> so, Shiakh sb would also be right on J-20C


J-10C was a news so that's why I always believed in the Pindi Boy due to his extensive relations in Pindi 😜. But J-20C is more of a speculation, a wish list. If you listen to his words carefully you would come to this conclusion.

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## The Terminator

waz said:


> Guys can we please leave the range of the PL-15 out of this, no more on the TVC engine which has been proved to be false already and just focus on the topic at hand!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone if the cockpit has bluetooth connectivity to the pilot's Iphone or Samsung so he can download Kenny Loggins;


Sorry no provision for apple iphone compatibility, just Huawei only and android as extra option 😜




ghazi52 said:


> .,.,.
> View attachment 824900
> 
> ,.,


So it seems like the next batch is almost ready to be delivered 😍

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## Windjammer

The Terminator said:


> So it seems like the next batch is almost ready to be delivered 😍


It's not difficult to read their registration numbers on the tail.....these are images of the first batch.

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## MIRauf

The Terminator said:


> It looks like more of a wash service than a ceremonial water salute. Anti-icing Chemical layers are sprayed on planes before take off but it's entirely for yet another purpose.


Yes, after a Maritime Mission, it was worded as such in case if you missed it or didn't get it.


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## sheik

siegecrossbow said:


> The dual rack is compatible with both PL-15 and PL-10. The real question is whether there is enough space for two dual racks. If so, a 6 PL-15/2 PL-10 loadout is possible.



PLA is developing triple racks as shown in some patent applications.

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## lcloo

If there is urgency in adding more hard point/pylons, British had a weird answer with their Jaguar strike jet and English Electric Lightning (export version).

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## White privilege

lcloo said:


> If there is urgency in adding more hard point/pylons, British had a weird answer with their Jaguar strike jet and English Electric Lightning (export version).
> 
> View attachment 824952
> View attachment 824953


That's quite _cartoonish, _but again Brits built a bomb literally called _the Disney bomb.



_

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## SQ8

White privilege said:


> That's quite _cartoonish, _but again Brits built a bomb literally called _the Disney bomb.
> View attachment 824958
> _


When cartoons were actually educational with adult emotions and taught us life lessons. Only millennials can relate.

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## Readerdefence

Ali_Baba said:


> Has the question of whether or not the fuel tanks can be jettisoned in combat been resolved?
> 
> Additionally - has there ever been any pictures of confirmation that the inner pylons can carry Air-to-Air missiles?
> 
> The most logical load out would be central fuel tank - jammers on the fuselage hard points and 2 x Dual Racks with PL15s/SD10s(ie 8 BVRs) and like you suggest with PL-10 on the outer hard points. It is the ideal load-out to duke out a BVR fight with the Rafales given how many BVRs the Rafale can carry.
> 
> Let's see - i was surprised to see the picture of the JF17 Block III with 5 x PL-15 missiles as part of it's induction ceremony - so the PAF seems to have moved on from the "2 BVRs missiles are enough mentality". It would be odd if PAF inducted the J10C that can only carry 4 BVRs when it is planning to do more with the JF17 Block III.


Hi Ali I think j10 engage 4 at a time so in BVR I believe after sending 4 towards your opponent you don’t have time to re engage as the opponent must have fired towards you too in the meanwhile 
so if j10 can simultaneously fire and engage all BRV I think figure of 4 is enough at the moment 
your input will be appreciated 
thank you

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## LeGenD

Beast said:


> Sure the patent is filed but I am sure F-22 raptor is first to use that. Plus, generation and generation upgrade. The same radar reflective today is surely not the one used on 80s. Same as the stealth of F-117 in the 90s is no equivalent to today on F-35 and J-20.


EA-6B Prowler was the first aircraft to receive it.





Source: DoD

https://www.quora.com › Why-is-th...
Why is the inside of the windshield of the EA-6B Prowler lined in gold?

In case of jet fighters, it is optional for F-16 and F-15 variants but standard feature of F-22A.





Source: Key.aero





Source: Hamid Faraz







F-35A/B/C received a new type of canopy coating.

F-22A canopy coating includes Indium Tin Oxide (ITO).

F-35A/B/C canopy coating includes Aluminium Doped Zinc Oxide (AZO)

AZO is relatively durable (greater resistance to corrosion).



SQ8 said:


> Gold plating for radar reflectivity has been used since the mid 80s. Boeing filed a patent for gold plated canopy to reflect radar rays in the late 60s.


This.



ZY-CN-CA said:


> According to US media, one feature of the J-10CE that has attracted considerable attention is the fighter's "golden canopy", which is very rare on fourth-generation aircraft, but in the J-20 and the US F-22 "Raptor". "I've seen it on a fighter jet. Under certain lighting conditions, the canopy of the J-10CE appears golden yellow due to an indium tin oxide conductive film coating between the optical glass layers. This color coating is mainly used to scatter radio waves from the cockpit to reduce the fighter's radar cross-section.
> 
> A window member composed of a transparent resin or inorganic glass with a transparent conducting film such as gold or ITO (indium tin oxide) coated thereon, is used as an electromagnetic wave shield window for stealth aircraft. Applying such transparent conducting film enables, while maintaining transparency to visible radiation, both a radio wave stealth property which scatters radio waves in various directions so as not to be detected by radar, and an electromagnetic wave shield property which prevents harmful electromagnetic waves, except for visible radiation, from invasion into an aircraft.
> 
> This feature is one of several new technologies introduced in Pakistan, the first country in the region to benefit from the technology. As the J-10CE is expected to become an elite fighter in the Pakistan Air Force in the coming years, its golden canopy symbolizes the aircraft's status.


Err...

See above.

This was posted before and the source is following:





__





Military Watch Magazine







militarywatchmagazine.com





For general knowledge:









New J-10B fighter equipped with gold tinted cockpit canopy







www.china-arms.com

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## ghazi52

What a beauty... ....

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## The Terminator

Chinese forces PLAAF uses metric system. Whereas most of the air forces still use imperials in aviation. What system does J-10CP follow??

@Deino


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## SQ8

LeGenD said:


> EA-6B Prowler was the first aircraft to receive it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: DoD
> 
> https://www.quora.com › Why-is-th...
> Why is the inside of the windshield of the EA-6B Prowler lined in gold?
> 
> In case of jet fighters, it is optional for F-16 and F-15 variants but standard feature of F-22A.
> 
> View attachment 824971
> 
> Source: Key.aero
> 
> View attachment 824972
> 
> Source: Hamid Faraz
> 
> 
> View attachment 824970
> 
> 
> F-35A/B/C received a new type of canopy coating.
> 
> F-22A canopy coating includes Indium Tin Oxide (ITO).
> 
> F-35A/B/C canopy coating includes Aluminium Doped Zinc Oxide (AZO)
> 
> AZO is relatively durable (greater resistance to corrosion).
> 
> 
> This.
> 
> 
> Err...
> 
> See above.
> 
> This was posted before and the source is following:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Military Watch Magazine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> militarywatchmagazine.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For general knowledge:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New J-10B fighter equipped with gold tinted cockpit canopy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.china-arms.com


The claim that the J-10CP is the first time Pakistan has had access or use of this technology is incorrect

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## NA71

Chinese Air Combat J10c vs J16

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## LeGenD

SQ8 said:


> The claim that the J-10CP is the first time Pakistan has had access or use of this technology is incorrect


Absolutely, Sir.

I do not find MWM reporting to be well-researched very often. It needs better contributors.


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*A high-resolution image of J10CP No.101




*

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*LOVE THESE BAND OF BROTHERS* 😍 😍

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*J-10C formation over Islamabad Today*

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## ghazi52

^^^^^
Finally on Pakistani soul...





^^^^

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## dranger22

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *LOVE THESE BAND OF BROTHERS* 😍 😍
> View attachment 825006


J10-CE is the new dream jet for Pakistani kids now! Breath of fresh air!

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## Bleek

dranger22 said:


> J10-CE is the new dream jet for Pakistani kids now! Breath of fresh air!


F-16 is still aesthetically the favourite tbh

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## Dreamer.

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 824619





ghazi52 said:


> What a beauty... ....
> 
> 
> View attachment 824986



So the 2nd antenna on the spine which was missing before is already installed now? as can be seen in this picture?


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## dranger22

Bleek said:


> F-16 is still aesthetically the favourite tbh


For you for you my friend😏

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## jaybird

siegecrossbow said:


> Not sure what you mean by fuel tanks can be ejected. Unless they are conformal fuel tanks they are easily jettisoned during combat.


Maybe Ali_Baba is confused with Deino's post in page 362. The conversation was about replacing the inner pylons of the J-10C that carry fuel tanks to carry missiles as problematic. And not J-10C can't jettisoned the fuel tanks during combat. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, I think Deino meant in order for the J-10C to carry aam or missile on the inner pylons, you can't just remove the fuel tanks outside, but have to open from the top of the wings to do modification on certain panels too. 

Obviously PLAAF prefer the option of 2X PL-10, 4X PL-15, 3X fuel tanks as to 2X PL-10, 6X PL-15, 1X fuel tank.

But if PAF prefer the other option for their J-10CE, PAC Kamra probably can make the modification themselves too.

As for why the inner pylons of J-10C can carry guided bombs but not missiles, I read somewhere that it was supposedly the mechanism of releasing bombs and missiles are different.

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## Viper 94

ahtan_china said:


> View attachment 824819


F-16 is pulling up


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## jaybird

Dreamer. said:


> So the 2nd antenna on the spine which was missing before is already installed now? as can be seen in this picture?


Not yet, there should be another antenna farther back near the vertical stabilizer. Just look at the pic Deino make to compare.

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## Dreamer.

jaybird said:


> Not yet, there should be another antenna farther back near the vertical stabilizer. Just look at the pic Deino make to compare.
> View attachment 825061


Oh yes, now I recall that the missing one was further back. Thanks for the correction.

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## The Terminator

Dreamer. said:


> Oh yes, now I recall that the missing one was further back. Thanks for the correction.


I have heard that the missing antenna is used to communicate with 5th Gen platforms like the J-20, as 5th Gen are capable of communicating tons of data on greater bandwidths than previous Gen so that's why China needs that datalink for synergy between it's fleet but currently there isn't any such requirement in PAF. So would save some $$ to drop that option in J-10CP. And opted for our own datalink Link-17 to better integrate within PAF fleet


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## Development C&P

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504233691861557251

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504264947160678402

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## Development C&P

China's bubble cockpit design is exposed, and the J-10C cockpit is announced. The latest evolution is surprising​2022-03-18 15:01 HKT



 https://inf.news/en/military/c582af180208aaf9af23b5c33bc34ab3.html



China Military Network recently exposed a group of J-10C fighter cockpit control platforms. Its one-flat design and three-down design are almost the same as the public cockpit of the J-10B at the Zhuhai Air Show. When the 10C first entered service, it was often considered to be the 02 batch of the J-10B, which shows the close blood relationship between the two.





https://p5-tt.byteimg.com/origin/pgc-image/84486011ecdd417d8e74074f8e3931e5.jpg
Hero pilot Wang Jiandong

However, with the continuous evolution and improvement of the J-10 fighter, the glass cockpit of this model has also been improved 4 times. The airborne cockpit display system has progressed with the progress of the times. As a major national heavy equipment, the airborne cockpit must use the most advanced cutting-edge technology. The four monitors used in the J-10C are a revolution in the cockpit layout of fighter jets, which can improve the situational awareness of pilots to a greater extent.

Although the integration and display area of the F-10C's airborne equipment is not as large as the single-piece display of the F-16, it is sufficient for the later stage of the F-10.




https://p5-tt.byteimg.com/origin/pgc-image/5cf3cedca5c34967a965c92b52b82f53.jpg
jian 10 Cockpit display

In the cockpit of the J-10C, the biggest change that makes people feel is the newly exposed helmet display, which can maximize the information level of the J-10 fighter. The helmet-mounted display can not only replace the aiming data in front of the pilot, but also directly command the aiming direction of the airborne sensor through the helmet, so as to eliminate all enemies in sight, and greatly increase the attack distance of the fighter with a large off-axis angle.






https://p3-tt.byteimg.com/origin/pgc-image/74a498ca36984e23a1609174d6e6710c.png
jian-10

For the air force of other countries, only the third-generation semi-fighter aircraft such as Xiang Rafale and F-22 are equipped with helmet-mounted displays. Helmet-mounted displays and integrated displays have become mainstream fighters in the future. Standard. Not long ago, there was news that Pakistan would buy the Chinese J-10C, because India has continuously introduced heavy fighters in recent years, and all Pakistan also has a need for heavy fighters.






https://p5-tt.byteimg.com/origin/pgc-image/fb29d9b4d25e4acf8c6917677b985ffa.png
F22 LCD Display

According to Indian media reports, the Pakistani delegation went to China in October to purchase 30 J-10Cs at one time. However, the news has not been confirmed by the Pakistani military. In fact, as early as 2008, the Pakistani military reported the purchase of the J-10, but at that time the J-10 fighter had only been in service for two years.

In 2020, a Pakistani media website published a picture of the J-10 and JF-17 fighters. Moreover, the current Chief of Staff of the Pakistan Air Force Tanville Mehamud also stated that he is considering purchasing 36 J-10CE fighters from China. Since then, there have been news that Pakistan wants to buy Chinese J-10 fighters, but they have not been realized.






https://p5-tt.byteimg.com/origin/pgc-image/ac9c99e61dfd47d8b7fa072ad34f7b5a.png
Pakistan welcome People's Liberation Army Ceremony

According to reports, the China-Pakistan military exercise has started on December 9, and the People's Liberation Army J-10 fighters have also participated in air combat exercises. If the Pakistan Air Force witnesses the excellent capabilities of the J-10 , The possibility of buying the export version of F-10 will be greatly increased.



_________________________________________________


But the J10 cockpit picture shown in the article has appeared early in 2019, and the source is China's TV show.





So I think it is more likely to be a J10A or J10B cockpit, not the J10C cockpit after the full avionics system.

Because the dashboard layout has appeared in the J10 research and development documentary in 2015



























————————————————





Early J10 dashboard




Considering the cockpit photos on the Zhuhai Air Show, the dashboard should be J10B.

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## Salman Baig

Does J 10C has The Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System (Auto GCAS)?

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## Ek620

Are we using MB seats or the CHINESE one's


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## Development C&P

Regarding the cockpit of J10C,
I personally infer that after the avionics system is fully upgraded,
the applying the dashboard should be the application version of the concept cockpit displayed on the 2014 Air Show.











That is, it is this style.













Through image processing, we can see the shape of the dashboard current J10C and its training devices.
*It is clear that the outline of the dashboard is a rectangular, which is not composed of several modules.*

in addition
From the previous PAF J10C promotional video, the dashboard exhibited is partially
Inferred by its angles and sizes and the color shown,




*The size and angle of this screen is closer to the concept chamber cabin on the left, not the dashboard from the air show aircraft on the right.*

This gives us reason to believe，In addition to the operating rod because the early flight control design is still left in the middle position, it is not placed outside the right, and other functional upgrades should be applied to J10C.🧐

Who knows the J10 series in the upgrade process, how many technological innovations brought by J20...

*Of course, these may be inaccurate, this is just a personal analysis based on public network video and discussion.*

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## Signalian

The Terminator said:


> I have heard that the missing antenna is used to communicate with 5th Gen platforms like the J-20, as 5th Gen are capable of communicating tons of data on greater bandwidths than previous Gen so that's why China needs that datalink for synergy between it's fleet but currently there isn't any such requirement in PAF. So would save some $$ to drop that option in J-10CP. And opted for our own datalink Link-17 to better integrate within PAF fleet


Higher Throughout requiring antenna ?

Interesting

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## Bleek

Ek620 said:


> Are we using MB seats or the CHINESE one's


Chinese

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## White privilege

Ok so why wasn't Gattling gun installed?? 🐉 is a big boy and can carry the extra weight....


----------



## GiantPanda

White privilege said:


> Ok so why wasn't Gattling gun installed?? 🐉 is a big boy and can carry the extra weight....



Huh? The J-10 has a gun.


----------



## Development C&P

White privilege said:


> Ok so why wasn't Gattling gun installed?? 🐉 is a big boy and can carry the extra weight....







Like this？


----------



## Windjammer

While the Viper has gone ballistic the two J-10s flanking it make a classic break.

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## Falcon26

Ali_Baba said:


> Has the question of whether or not the fuel tanks can be jettisoned in combat been resolved?
> 
> Additionally - has there ever been any pictures of confirmation that the inner pylons can carry Air-to-Air missiles?
> 
> The most logical load out would be central fuel tank - jammers on the fuselage hard points and 2 x Dual Racks with PL15s/SD10s(ie 8 BVRs) and like you suggest with PL-10 on the outer hard points. It is the ideal load-out to duke out a BVR fight with the Rafales given how many BVRs the Rafale can carry.
> 
> Let's see - i was surprised to see the picture of the JF17 Block III with 5 x PL-15 missiles as part of it's induction ceremony - so the PAF seems to have moved on from the "2 BVRs missiles are enough mentality". It would be odd if PAF inducted the J10C that can only carry 4 BVRs when it is planning to do more with the JF17 Block III.



The weapon carrying capacity difference between J-10C & Rafale are simply mind boggling. The J-10C carrying capacity is really pathetic.

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## Thrust_Vector998

Windjammer said:


> While the Viper has gone ballistic the two J-10s flanking it make a classic break.
> 
> View attachment 825180


Witnessed this sight with my own eyes today Alhumdulillah 😍

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## Xn Jin

RangeMaster said:


> 欢迎
> 
> View attachment 804262


without weaponry its same as stealth.


----------



## FuturePAF

dranger22 said:


> J10-CE is the new dream jet for Pakistani kids now! Breath of fresh air!


Procuring the J-10 was primarily about war fighting ability, but also for the psychological aspect.

A new challenge for the Indians and a new jet to focus the minds of our Domestic audience as well as the opponent’s. It seems to be working.


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## ghazi52

.......
Lethal factor may cause sleepless nights for enemy...
.





.....

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## Vapnope



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## Bleek

dranger22 said:


> For you for you my friend😏


For the majority my friend 😉

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## ahtan_china

Falcon26 said:


> The weapon carrying capacity difference between J-10C & Rafale are simply mind boggling. The J-10C carrying capacity is really pathetic.


For J-10CE,the only target is RAFALE. So 4XPL-15 is enough.

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## White privilege

Development C&P said:


> View attachment 825179
> 
> Like this？





GiantPanda said:


> Huh? The J-10 has a gun.


I am quite aware of that _fact._However my question was why wasn't a _rotary(aka Gatling) _gun used for J-10, much like the F-16??


----------



## GiantPanda

White privilege said:


> I am quite aware of that _fact._However my question was why wasn't a _rotary(aka Gatling) _gun used for J-10, much like the F-16??



How come the F-16 doesn't use the GAU 8 gatling gun of the A-10 Warthog? 

Why go halfway with a gatling gun?

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## mshan44



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## White privilege

GiantPanda said:


> How come the F-16 doesn't use the GAU 8 gatling gun of the A-10 Warthog?
> 
> Why go halfway with a gatling gun?


Can you please bother not to reply if you are going throw a rhetorical tantrum instead of some fruitful discussion...Much appreciated


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## Windjammer

Rocking Islamabad these days.

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## siegecrossbow

Windjammer said:


> Rocking Islamabad these days.
> 
> View attachment 825246



Nice they are flying it every day! Must love the new toy.

Are they doing any combat training yet or are they focused on aerobatics until after the parade?

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## Bossman

siegecrossbow said:


> Nice they are flying it every day! Must love the new toy.
> 
> Are they doing any combat training yet or are they focused on aerobatics until after the parade?


One of the reasons they are not leading the parade is that they are not operational yet.

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## RJV

White privilege said:


> Can you please bother not to reply if you are going throw a rhetorical tantrum instead of some fruitful discussion...Much appreciated


A: Rotary or Gatling guns are a very American thing. You will not find other Aircrafts using these. Example being Eurofighter, Rafale, Grippen do not use Gatling guns. Most Soviets and Chinese Aircraft use either GSh-23 or GSh-30 cannons. 

B: Refer to your original question, "why J-10 is not using a gatling gun", can you please clarify why you think J-10 should be using a gatling gun or what is missing by not using a gatling gun ?

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## White privilege

RJV said:


> B: Refer to your original question, "why J-10 is not using a gatling gun", can you please clarify why you think J-10 should be using a gatling gun or what is missing by not using a gatling gun ?


Well more ammo, insane rate of fire, less prone to jamming, and more shredding I guess.....


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## White privilege

RJV said:


> A: Rotary or Gatling guns are a very American thing. You will not find other Aircrafts using these. Example being Eurofighter, Rafale, Grippen do not use Gatling guns. Most Soviets and Chinese Aircraft use either GSh-23 or GSh-30 cannons.


And it also kind of begs the philosophical question that why do Americans opt for Gatling guns and not these other nations?? Have they not miniaturized this tech or whatever.....


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## ghazi52

How about this your thoughts.................

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

ghazi52 said:


> How about this your thoughts.................
> 
> View attachment 825292


*BROTHERS IN ARMS* *AND NIGHTMARE FOR THE ENEMIES* 😍 😍 😍

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## huanghong

White privilege said:


> And it also kind of begs the philosophical question that why do Americans opt for Gatling guns and not these other nations?? Have they not miniaturized this tech or whatever.....


Because compared to m61a, gsh-23 is more powerful.
3600rpm 175g vs 6000rpm 100g
Why choose a less powerful weapon?

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## siegecrossbow

White privilege said:


> And it also kind of begs the philosophical question that why do Americans opt for Gatling guns and not these other nations?? Have they not miniaturized this tech or whatever.....



Americans did invent the gatling gun during the Civil War.

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## RJV

ghazi52 said:


> How about this your thoughts.................
> 
> View attachment 825292



😍 Looking good.


I wish J-10C and JF-17 should also be shown from side like F-16 pic above. The frontal profile does not do justice with the these beauties. 

Best would be bottom view of all three with full load. Something like image below but with full load

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## air marshal



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## Ali_Baba

Falcon26 said:


> The weapon carrying capacity difference between J-10C & Rafale are simply mind boggling. The J-10C carrying capacity is really pathetic.



The F16s and Rafale are far more flexible in terms of payload options from what we have seen - maybe it is something PAF can work with Chengdu to fix in the next version of the J10 series now that PAF has bought into it.

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## ghazi52

,.,.




,.,.

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## Oom

How does the F-16 block 70 stack up against the J-10C. Both with export variant munitions, AIM-120C8 for the former and export variant of PL-15 for the latter?

One of the biggest advantages for inducting the J-10CP has been that finally we have an aircraft that can carry large payload of stand-off munitions, both JF-17 and mirage has limits. The F-16 was of course not permitted for any such offensive weaponry. I honestly believe that the J-10 will IA replace the mirages on a one to one basis- six squadrons.

Also if any member can answer why did the PAF delay the purchase of the J-10 for such a long time?. Did we prefer the F-16? I don’t think money would have been an obstacle especially during the last govt when fiscal situation was better and the Chinese willingness to extend long term financing?

Also given that there isn’t much difference between the price of JF-17 block iii and the J-10 judging from the Argentina’s order, should we really not consider ordering more J-10 over the block iii, the Thunder has limits being a light fighter.


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## The Terminator

White privilege said:


> I am quite aware of that _fact._However my question was why wasn't a _rotary(aka Gatling) _gun used for J-10, much like the F-16??


Guns are becoming rare and obsolete in modern air to air combat. Reason: The ever increasing capabilities of the BVR missiles and HOBS WVR missiles. The only purpose it most probably serve is strafing through the enemy positions when exhausted all of you other munitions but it's also could be a fatal mistake in the end. 

So whenever you have to switch to the gun you are already in deep $hit trouble, better try to bugger off to survive and fight another day. Why put the most precious assets in the battlefield (pilot and the plane) in unnecessary risk of being even shot down by HMG fire.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## The Terminator

ahtan_china said:


> For J-10CE,the only target is RAFALE. So 4XPL-15 is enough.


No it's role is much more extensive than that. It would act as a premier 4++ Gen Omni role fighter for the PAF, performing wide range of missions. It would be able to perform all the missions perhaps better than the present fleet of the PAF. It may also play the role of PAF's Nuclear delivery platform upon the retirement of the tired Mirages.
In air superiority role it's standard munitions load out would be 4 BVRs (PL-15) and 2 HOBS WVR missiles (PL-10) with probably some fuel drop tanks and chin mounted additional EW jamming pod

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## Rahil khan

Oom said:


> How does the F-16 block 70 stack up against the J-10C. Both with export variant munitions, AIM-120C8 for the former and export variant of PL-15 for the latter?
> 
> One of the biggest advantages for inducting the J-10CP has been that finally we have an aircraft that can carry large payload of stand-off munitions, both JF-17 and mirage has limits. The F-16 was of course not permitted for any such offensive weaponry. I honestly believe that the J-10 will IA replace the mirages on a one to one basis- six squadrons.
> 
> Also if any member can answer why did the PAF delay the purchase of the J-10 for such a long time?. Did we prefer the F-16? I don’t think money would have been an obstacle especially during the last govt when fiscal situation was better and the Chinese willingness to extend long term financing?
> 
> Also given that there isn’t much difference between the price of JF-17 block iii and the J-10 judging from the Argentina’s order, should we really not consider ordering more J-10 over the block iii, the Thunder has limits being a light fighter.



To my knowledge J-10 was shown to President Musharraf during his visit to Beijing back in 2006, and he was impressed without doubt and i believe we placed an order for couple of squadrons. But at the same time we were in a process of having new Block 52 Vipers along with the Mid Life Upgraded ones. We also devloped our capacity to have serial production line of thunders. But Musharraf's resgination and the economic decline of 2008 afterwards, our officials better decided to stick with old/new F-16s along with serial production line of thunders. Also J-10A model at that time never added something substantially new in our defence spectrum i guess. We were quite happy by having new AMRAAMs and SD-10s along with newLY acquired night strike capability. But J-10C is the different story altogether.

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## Development C&P

I need to make some corrections to the contents of the last discussed in # 6154 on page 411.









The picture shown in the article is indeed the cockpit used by the J10C of PLAAF, but this should belong to the early model.


In the video disclosed in PLAAF (2021; 2022),
J10C's cockpit and pilot training simulator have been very different from the previously formed instrument panels composed of four screens.


This is analyzed in page 411 # 6157
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-j-10c-news-updates-and-discussion.736569/post-13635810




Development C&P said:


> Regarding the cockpit of J10C,
> I personally infer that after the avionics system is fully upgraded,
> the applying the dashboard should be the application version of the concept cockpit displayed on the 2014 Air Show.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is, it is this style.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Through image processing, we can see the shape of the dashboard current J10C and its training devices.
> *It is clear that the outline of the dashboard is a rectangular, which is not composed of several modules.*
> 
> in addition
> From the previous PAF J10C promotional video, the dashboard exhibited is partially
> Inferred by its angles and sizes and the color shown,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The size and angle of this screen is closer to the concept chamber cabin on the left, not the dashboard from the air show aircraft on the right.*
> 
> This gives us reason to believe，In addition to the operating rod because the early flight control design is still left in the middle position, it is not placed outside the right, and other functional upgrades should be applied to J10C.🧐
> 
> Who knows the J10 series in the upgrade process, how many technological innovations brought by J20...
> 
> *Of course, these may be inaccurate, this is just a personal analysis based on public network video and discussion.*



I am comparative analysis of all the videos issued by PLAAF and PAF on the network.
*Its cockpit layout is indeed different from the earlier version of J10C（Before 2020）.
AVIC's CAC is provided to PAF's J10C, which should be synchronized with PLAAF, and is the most advanced J10C of the latest batch.


So we have reason to believe that，
What we see now,
Flying over Islamabad,
It is very likely to upgrade the latest version of the avionics and control system J10C.*

Maybe we can call it "J10CP"（J10 C-PLUS）




_______________________________________________________
*Of course, these may be inaccurate, this is just a personal analysis based on public network video and discussion.*

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## The Terminator

Oom said:


> How does the F-16 block 70 stack up against the J-10C. Both with export variant munitions, AIM-120C8 for the former and export variant of PL-15 for the latter?
> 
> One of the biggest advantages for inducting the J-10CP has been that finally we have an aircraft that can carry large payload of stand-off munitions, both JF-17 and mirage has limits. The F-16 was of course not permitted for any such offensive weaponry. I honestly believe that the J-10 will IA replace the mirages on a one to one basis- six squadrons.
> 
> Also if any member can answer why did the PAF delay the purchase of the J-10 for such a long time?. Did we prefer the F-16? I don’t think money would have been an obstacle especially during the last govt when fiscal situation was better and the Chinese willingness to extend long term financing?
> 
> Also given that there isn’t much difference between the price of JF-17 block iii and the J-10 judging from the Argentina’s order, should we really not consider ordering more J-10 over the block iii, the Thunder has limits being a light fighter.


As per public domain knowledge any variant of the Aim-120C is inferior to the PL-15 in range and kinetic performance because PL-15 uses dual pulse rocket motor and has greater range. PL-15 has reportedly (arguably) better sensor suite with active AESA radar seeker which is much more resilient to jam/fool by ECM and possesses superior ECCM characteristics, so it would have high probability of hit than the other missiles.

As for late J-10 acquisition, PAF was never interested to get J-10A. They started evaluating it in B form, but even then it lacked in certain aspects. 

PAF's 1st preference was to get more F-16s almost free under US provided CSF funds. Yes F-16 was by then the most suitable option, a lethal machine which our pilot's had experience flying for decades. Easier and much more cheaper to integrate in present PAF setup as we already had dozens of F-16s well maintained and flying. The only downside was excessive US pressure and embargo issues. 

The mamy reasons for inducting J-10C now. The platform has matured and have seen drastic evolution in Avionics and local Chinese WS-10 engines. It in its current form really enhances the capabilities of the PAF, could be used as Nuclear delivery platform in place of Mirages no strings attached. Would speed up PAF's modernization plans by replacing Mirages and F-7s with thunders and dragons. Synergy between the thunders, dragons, HQ-9, ground radars, and Chinese AWACS etc. Rather than having a a fleet of obsolete Soviet era fighters with new Russian SU-30MKI and western totally different Rafale operating almost in their own sperate bubbles. And we weren't able to buy J-10s before with Russian Al-31 engines due to India's obvious concerns.

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## The Terminator

Rahil khan said:


> To my knowledge J-10 was shown to President Musharraf during his visit to Beijing back in 2006, and he was impressed without doubt and i believe we placed an order for couple of squadrons. But at the same time we were in a process of having new Block 52 Vipers along with the Mid Life Upgraded ones. We also devloped our capacity to have serial production line of thunders. But Musharraf's resgination and the economic decline of 2008 afterwards, our officials better decided to stuck with old/new F-16s along with serial production line of thunders. Also J-10A model at that time never added something substantially new in our defence spectrum i guess. We were quite happy by having new AMRAAMs and SD-10s along with new acuired night strike capability. But J-10C is the different story altogether.


That's was just Musharraf's fantasy back then. PAF wasn't interested. Even JF-17 thunder was superior to J-10A in various aspects. The only advantage of J-10A was bigger size so more payload and range but a very limited aircraft which was supposed to be an interceptor for the PLAAF. And PAF doesn't really buy single role jets. J-10C is entirely another kind of a beast sharing it's DNA with the 5th Gen fighters and has a much more better variety of armaments than its 1st iteration.

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## siegecrossbow

Oom said:


> How does the F-16 block 70 stack up against the J-10C. Both with export variant munitions, AIM-120C8 for the former and export variant of PL-15 for the latter?
> 
> One of the biggest advantages for inducting the J-10CP has been that finally we have an aircraft that can carry large payload of stand-off munitions, both JF-17 and mirage has limits. The F-16 was of course not permitted for any such offensive weaponry. I honestly believe that the J-10 will IA replace the mirages on a one to one basis- six squadrons.
> 
> Also if any member can answer why did the PAF delay the purchase of the J-10 for such a long time?. Did we prefer the F-16? I don’t think money would have been an obstacle especially during the last govt when fiscal situation was better and the Chinese willingness to extend long term financing?
> 
> Also given that there isn’t much difference between the price of JF-17 block iii and the J-10 judging from the Argentina’s order, should we really not consider ordering more J-10 over the block iii, the Thunder has limits being a light fighter.



In multi role F-16 block 70 wins hands down, with longer range and greater weapons load. Air to air should be closer if it is using AIM-9X and AIM-120D, but the latter so far has only been exported to closest US Allies. F-16 has the advantage in sustained turn while the J-10C should have the advantage in instantaneous turn.

The low sale price to Pakistan is for Pakistan only. It is a bit like how the US provides military aid to Israel. If Argentina wants J-10C it will be quite a bit more expensive because China will also need to deal with political fallout with the UK.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

ghazi52 said:


> How about this your thoughts.................
> 
> View attachment 825292


The Three Musketeers....

All for one, and one for all.....

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## The Terminator

White privilege said:


> And it also kind of begs the philosophical question that why do Americans opt for Gatling guns and not these other nations?? Have they not miniaturized this tech or whatever.....


American gattling guns also have a drawback. Their electromechanical actuation system takes more spool time before firing a shot, it's more complicated, requires electrical power and has more chances of malfunction. The mechanical guns of thunder and dragon are simple, reliable and doesn't require any electrical power to operate them.

And for the practical usage of the guns plz refer to the studies why US dumped it's legendary A-10 close air support fighter despite of it's beloved Brrrrrrrr sound. Similar threats are for the modern fighter using it's cannon.


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## Oom

siegecrossbow said:


> In multi role F-16 block 70 wins hands down, with longer range and greater weapons load. Air to air should be closer if it is using AIM-9X and AIM-120D, but the latter so far has only been exported to closest US Allies. F-16 has the advantage in sustained turn while the J-10C should have the advantage in instantaneous turn.
> 
> The low sale price to Pakistan is for Pakistan only. It is a bit like how the US provides military aid to Israel. If Argentina wants J-10C it will be quite a bit more expensive because China will also need to deal with political fallout with the UK.


What about radar detection ranges? And electronic warfare package? I know this isn’t public information, but a guess? 

Tbh, I’m pretty pissed off that the Chinese sold us the export variant of the PL-15, even the US sells Israel it’s top of the line arsenal.

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## Development C&P

The Terminator said:


> J-10C is entirely another kind of a beast sharing it's DNA with the 5th Gen fighters and has a much more better variety of armaments than its 1st iteration.


When the technology of the five generation machine is applied to the J10C upgrade,
The current version of J10C is almost almost the same as before the outer shell.
However, the content that may have been wrapped in the casing has produced a huge change.

Although it is seen from the analysis of public information.
PAF version of J10C is the latest version of PLAAF.

And, if you look at the historical communication of the two countries, considering the needs of PAF, I even have reason to suspect that PAF's customized version in some aspects can even be better than PLAAF.

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## siegecrossbow

Oom said:


> What about radar detection ranges? And electronic warfare package? I know this isn’t public information, but a guess?
> 
> Tbh, I’m pretty pissed off that the Chinese sold us the export variant of the PL-15, even the US sells Israel it’s top of the line arsenal.



All those things are classified. For radar capability I think KLJ-7A x 1.5 is probably accurate.

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## tphuang

siegecrossbow said:


> In multi role F-16 block 70 wins hands down, with longer range and greater weapons load. Air to air should be closer if it is using AIM-9X and AIM-120D, but the latter so far has only been exported to closest US Allies. F-16 has the advantage in sustained turn while the J-10C should have the advantage in instantaneous turn.
> 
> The low sale price to Pakistan is for Pakistan only. It is a bit like how the US provides military aid to Israel. If Argentina wants J-10C it will be quite a bit more expensive because China will also need to deal with political fallout with the UK.



Block 70 has greater than 1200 km combat radius? I find that to be hard to believe. At this point, PL-15 should be better than AIM-120D and PL-10 should be better than AIM-9X.

Maybe my impression of F-16V is from ROCAF's constant struggles against J-16, but I don't sense it's a going to have advantage in A2A against J-10C.

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## Bleek

Oom said:


> What about radar detection ranges? And electronic warfare package? I know this isn’t public information, but a guess?
> 
> Tbh, I’m pretty pissed off that the Chinese sold us the export variant of the PL-15, even the US sells Israel it’s top of the line arsenal.


I think chance of the original version of PL-15 is still possible (if it isn't already there)

But China does like to keep its high-end technology secure

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## Oom

Bleek said:


> I think chance of the original version of PL-15 is still possible (if it isn't already there)
> 
> But China does like to keep its high-end technology secure


No point being their only ally than is there? 

The fact that we have to counter S400’s without a Stealth jet, when our best of best Ally has one, is quite frankly outrageous. 

The US sold F-15A/B exclusively to Israel in the last 70’s case in point.


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## siegecrossbow

tphuang said:


> Block 70 has greater than 1200 km combat radius? I find that to be hard to believe. At this point, PL-15 should be better than AIM-120D and PL-10 should be better than AIM-9X.
> 
> Maybe my impression of F-16V is from ROCAF's constant struggles against J-16, but I don't sense it's a going to have advantage in A2A against J-10C.



The F-16V currently operated by ROCAF are F-16A airframes with upgraded AESA radar/avionics, that's it. No engine change or any other significantly additions to the airframe (no ground collision avoidance or radar warning receiver for LPI radar). As a result they have lower thrust to weight ratio (added weight of AESA radar) and some times struggle to generate enough power for sustained operations of the radar. Newly produced F-16V, which they will obtain in a few years, are a completely different beast all together.

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## Bleek

Oom said:


> No point being their only ally than is there?
> 
> The fact that we have to counter S400’s without a Stealth jet, when our best of best Ally has one, is quite frankly outrageous.
> 
> The US sold F-15A/B exclusively to Israel in the last 70’s case in point.


China must consider her own interests also, the world does not revolve around* us (Pakistan). Even without original version of PL-15, the J10C plus PL-15E is a very capable duo. You would not find a deal like this elsewhere, especially at this price.

Being exclusively US' ally won't get you far when they are heavily in the Indian camp to counter China

We want to avoid block politics. China is at our doorstep and an emerging global superpower, it is in our interest to be their ally.

And since when is China denying us stealth? There will definitely be a stealth platform available and we will have access to it, this is almost a given 

There is also hesitation on our side to start this arms race, and we are attempting to build 5th generation infrastructure ourselves

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## Big_bud

Falcon26 said:


> The weapon carrying capacity difference between J-10C & Rafale are simply mind boggling. The J-10C carrying capacity is really pathetic.



It is not pathetic by any means whatsoever. It was designed more as an air superiority fighter and not as a truck.

Moreover you cant compare it with a twin engine platform. You can compare it with F16 which is in similar class.

F16 empty weight is 9207 kg. MTOW 21772kg. However with this much load + CFTs it flies poorly and is less agile than previous blocks.

Empty weight is 9,750 kg. MTOW 19,277 kg. 

F16s MTOW is 2495kg more at expense of flight performance.

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## Signalian

The Terminator said:


> I have heard that the missing antenna is used to communicate with 5th Gen platforms like the J-20, as 5th Gen are capable of communicating tons of data on greater bandwidths than previous Gen so that's why China needs that datalink for synergy between it's fleet but currently there isn't any such requirement in PAF. So would save some $$ to drop that option in J-10CP. And opted for our own datalink Link-17 to better integrate within PAF fleet


Intrigued with your explanation. There are many variables which make it confusing.

If Chinese were making a data link, then a 5th gen would be in the making too side by side as another project. Technology is researched and implemented by keeping future technology/additions/expansion/upgrades in mind. A software update is much more easier than a hardware update, its cost effective too. The aircraft design team will be pissed off if the software team designs a module which needs a hardware change later on. Antennas, themselves can be configured by softwares for compatibility as well as operating over a large range of frequencies keeping future in mind apart from data link's own software configuration. 

1. What would be the requirement of a large throughput data link for a 5th gen only ? that it needs to send massive data compared to DLs(data links) carried by other aircrafts of older gen ? 
Is this a special or recon version of aircraft which needs high-res SAR sensors for mapping or collecting information from sensors for continuous transmission which requires dedicated bandwidth ?

2. Why can't 4gen or 4.5 gen aircraft do the same ?
e.g. EA-18G operates with F-35, both are different generation. One is EW and other is fighter. In other cases F-15s and F-22 could be operating together. Would that require addition of hardware like antennas on F-15s or EA-18s.

3. Wasn't it plausible to keep the same version of data link in all aircraft for inter-operability ?



ghazi52 said:


> .......
> Lethal factor may cause sleepless nights for enemy...
> .
> .....


Yeah, they have already sent along Brahmos.



siegecrossbow said:


> In multi role F-16 block 70 wins hands down, with longer range and greater weapons load.


Why not delegate and shift the A2G responsibility to UCAVs, slowly and gradually ?

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## GiantPanda

The Terminator said:


> American gattling guns also have a drawback. Their electromechanical actuation system takes more spool time before firing a shot, it's more complicated, requires electrical power and has more chances of malfunction. The mechanical guns of thunder and dragon are simple, reliable and doesn't require any electrical power to operate them.
> 
> And for the practical usage of the guns plz refer to the studies why US dumped it's legendary A-10 close air support fighter despite of it's beloved Brrrrrrrr sound. Similar threats are for the modern fighter using it's cannon.



More prone to failure, needs electricity and more than twice the weight of the double barrel mechanical gun of the J-10.

It is like carrying a heavy sword as your last ditch weapon instead of a lightweight sidearm. Nobody uses it except the Americans.

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## mudas777

Big_bud said:


> And then we have people claiming each and everything is including F16s & EFTs are available!



There are plenty of them on this forum who failed to realise US have moved on and US don't have to put sanctions on us to deny weapons. Simply they are not entertaining the idea of selling new weapons to us without the Indian consent and the hostility in the congress against us is at the another level. 
It just reinforces our commitment to do better and stop depending on others for our own defence and know who are our real friends. US sanctions turned out to be blessing in disguise for us and forced us in doing things which otherwise we could not have done in million years.

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## GriffinsRule

Big_bud said:


> It is not pathetic by any means whatsoever. It was designed more as an air superiority fighter and not as a truck.
> 
> Moreover you cant compare it with a twin engine platform. You can compare it with F16 which is in similar class.
> 
> F16 empty weight is 9207 kg. MTOW 21772kg. However with this much load + CFTs it flies poorly and is less agile than previous blocks.
> 
> Empty weight is 9,750 kg. MTOW 19,277 kg.
> 
> F16s MTOW is 2495kg more at expense of flight performance.


Of course J-10 fully loaded has no impact on flight performance?


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## serenity

GriffinsRule said:


> Of course J-10 fully loaded has no impact on flight performance?



It does of course but F-16 gives user the option to overload even more. People are assuming that the maximum load of F-16 (around 2T more than J-10) would perform similarly to J-10 at its allowed max load.

The difference here is the allowed max load of the 2 is different. I'm sure the J-10 can add another 2 tonnes but the performance would be more sluggish.

You are missing the important factor here. The difference is not that F-16 can carry more to the same performance let's call overall Performance level P1 (benchmark of high load performance) compared to J-10. It is that the F-16 allows user to load it more however Px < P1.

While J-10 simply enforces a minimum of P1 and does not allow user to simply load it further.

WS-10B and F110 have similar dry and wet thrust figures. Both fighters have similar drag and lift.

So why is F-16 capable of carrying more? The reason is in how much each side allows their fighter to have as max. With Chinese the allowed max is lower as the thinking may be along the lines of why should I max it out to the same extent as F-16 is allowed. It degrades performance and range far too much. Reduces energy for weapons released, cannot dodge missiles incoming as well, cannot fly as far or fast or turn or climb anywhere near what is required. So Chinese simply did not bother triple and double racking all the pylons.

F-16 allows this but most missions will not allow it to carry 6 BVR missiles, 2 WVR missiles, three tanks and pods etc. It's just a matter of what you want to do with it.

Some people still stuck at max payload. I suppose this is why those companies market their aircraft in beast mode.

It's the difference between going to combat like this.








and going like this.







Where both men have similar carrying capacity but both choose different limits.

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## maverick1977

ahtan_china said:


> For J-10CE,the only target is RAFALE. So 4XPL-15 is enough.




when the enemy comes, they come in drove of 4 to 8 with strike package and same amount of planes for air cover.., A Cap is run by 2 aircrafts, J10C running CAP when the tension is high should be called, “strike mode” armed with 8 PL15 each and CAP of 2 containing 16 PL15.. i can assure you there will never by any spikes launched, even from inside the indian territory

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## Chak Bamu

White privilege said:


> Ok so why wasn't Gattling gun installed?? 🐉 is a big boy and can carry the extra weight....


Dude, don't waste people's time by shooting illogical & ignorant comments.

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## baqai

ahtan_china said:


> For J-10CE,the only target is RAFALE. So 4XPL-15 is enough.



for me, the biggest target in a battlefield would not be a fighters but awacs and ew assets to cause disruption, you can't shoot if you can't see


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## Signalian

serenity said:


> It does of course but F-16 gives user the option to overload even more. People are assuming that the maximum load of F-16 (around 2T more than J-10) would perform similarly to J-10 at its allowed max load.
> 
> The difference here is the allowed max load of the 2 is different. I'm sure the J-10 can add another 2 tonnes but the performance would be more sluggish.
> 
> You are missing the important factor here. The difference is not that F-16 can carry more to the same performance let's call overall Performance level P1 (benchmark of high load performance) compared to J-10. It is that the F-16 allows user to load it more however Px < P1.
> 
> While J-10 simply enforces a minimum of P1 and does not allow user to simply load it further.
> 
> WS-10B and F110 have similar dry and wet thrust figures. Both fighters have similar drag and lift.
> 
> So why is F-16 capable of carrying more? The reason is in how much each side allows their fighter to have as max. With Chinese the allowed max is lower as the thinking may be along the lines of why should I max it out to the same extent as F-16 is allowed. It degrades performance and range far too much. Reduces energy for weapons released, cannot dodge missiles incoming as well, cannot fly as far or fast or turn or climb anywhere near what is required. So Chinese simply did not bother triple and double racking all the pylons.
> 
> F-16 allows this but most missions will not allow it to carry 6 BVR missiles, 2 WVR missiles, three tanks and pods etc. It's just a matter of what you want to do with it.
> 
> Some people still stuck at max payload. I suppose this is why those companies market their aircraft in beast mode.
> 
> It's the difference between going to combat like this.
> 
> View attachment 825404
> 
> 
> 
> and going like this.
> 
> View attachment 825405
> 
> 
> 
> Where both men have similar carrying capacity but both choose different limits.


Spare the chit chat.

There is a reason having air refueling capability, multirole capability, mission planning, route setting, payload delivery etc. PLAAF doesnt have F-16, yet it can carry out all missions whether or not putting J-10 in air. PAF is not dependent on one type of aircraft to fulfill its needs. So far Mirages, F-16, JFT and J-10 as a combination. In future it will be 3 types, yet it doesnt dictate that only one type of aircraft has to carry out all responsibilities related to the mission. A multirole aircraft is itself designed to swing roles. 

So lets get out of the narrow view just to prove a trivial point since a random statement has been thrown out in the open which now requires a back up for prestige sake.



Bleek said:


> Even without original version of PL-15, the J10C plus PL-15E is a very capable duo.


Not sure if its theoretically suggested or if any practical tests have been carried out but if possible, an AAM with capability to take down supersonic CMs should be looked at and trialed by J-10. 
Similarly, Army AD uses target drones for practice, maybe a different target drone is needed now.

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## serenity

Signalian said:


> Spare the chit chat.
> 
> There is a reason having air refueling capability, multirole capability, mission planning, route setting, payload delivery etc. PLAAF doesnt have F-16, yet it can carry out all missions whether or not putting J-10 in air. PAF is not dependent on one type of aircraft to fulfill its needs. So far Mirages, F-16, JFT and J-10 as a combination. In future it will be 3 types, yet it doesnt dictate that only one type of aircraft has to carry out all responsibilities related to the mission. A multirole aircraft is itself designed to swing roles.
> 
> So lets get out of the narrow view just to prove a trivial point since a random statement has been thrown out in the open which now requires a back up for prestige sake.
> 
> 
> Not sure if its theoretically suggested or if any practical tests have been carried out but if possible, an AAM with capability to take down supersonic CMs should be looked at and trialed by J-10.
> Similarly, Army AD uses target drones for practice, maybe a different target drone is needed now.



Not sure what you are saying.

Do you mean J-10 is more air superiority focused and F-16 is more multirole? I certainly think this is the case.

AAM taking down cruise missiles? Sure that's more another set of capabilities rather than a question of launching platform. It depends on the cruise missiles themselves. I'm sure many are simply too stealthy or fast to effectively detect, track, and shoot down.

Anyway J-10 is a budget fighter for PLAAF. I don't think it's all that as some members are making it out to be.

Like predicted before J-10CE revealed for PAF, one group will say it is complete junk and another will say it's the best thing since 5th generation.

I think instead of quite lofty goals of intercepting cruise missiles with 4.5 gen fighters and newer AAMs which are theoretically possible, the reality is no one really knows each others real capabilities and extents to really pursue some strategy of incorporating CM interception into fighter roles.

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## Irfan Baloch

HttpError said:


> I was wondering if there could be another version of J10C with the dual engine? If it is a possibility? @Deino @beijingwalker @siegecrossbow


it is called J20. a twin engine delta wing with Cannards but with 5th generation features.

in the presence of all other twin engine flanker clones, a proposal to spending resources for a new delta wing jet with twin engines might be a hard sell.

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## Beast

mudas777 said:


> There are plenty of them on this forum who failed to realise US have moved on and US don't have to put sanctions on us to deny weapons. Simply they are not entertaining the idea of selling new weapons to us without the Indian consent and the hostility in the congress against us is at the another level.
> It just reinforces our commitment to do better and stop depending on others for our own defence and know who are our real friends. US sanctions turned out to be blessing in disguise for us and forced us in doing things which otherwise we could not have done in million years.


But there are still plenty of delusion who still cling onto hope of mending ties with US and get more F-16. They even prepare to give up sovereignty just for sake of some candies. I know some Pakistanis traitors even willing to give up Kashmir just to please Americans and get F-16 or Super Cobras.

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## Windjammer



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## Chak Bamu

Oom said:


> Tbh, I’m pretty pissed off that the Chinese sold us the export variant of the PL-15, even the US sells Israel it’s top of the line arsenal.


TBH, I am pretty pissed off at your sense of entitlement coupled with ignorance; also at your disingenuous attempt at creating a false equivalence between China & USA on one hand and Pakistan & Israel on another. Are you for real?

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## Chak Bamu

Oom said:


> No point being their only ally than is there?
> 
> The fact that we have to counter S400’s without a Stealth jet, when our best of best Ally has one, is quite frankly outrageous.
> 
> The US sold F-15A/B exclusively to Israel in the last 70’s case in point.


What is outrageous is again you sense of entitlement, again. Why do you suppose the Chinese must provide Pakistan with their latest & greatest? Is there a particular reason or do you just consider it a birthright?

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## Readerdefence

siegecrossbow said:


> Nice they are flying it every day! Must love the new toy.
> 
> Are they doing any combat training yet or are they focused on aerobatics until after the parade?


Hi my friend 
I think they might have done this training already within PlAAF while Chinese airforce doing training in their own territory with the other different fighters of PLAAF force 
if PAF pilot were trained in China & training last let’s say 6/9 months ( by the way how long is the training) they must have participated with Chinese aces already 
you are a very well informed member of the SDF too 
I’m sure will try to dig out on SDF for our knowledge too 
your input will be much appreciated 
thank you

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## Akasa

siegecrossbow said:


> In multi role F-16 block 70 wins hands down, with longer range and greater weapons load. Air to air should be closer if it is using AIM-9X and AIM-120D, but the latter so far has only been exported to closest US Allies. F-16 has the advantage in sustained turn while the J-10C should have the advantage in instantaneous turn.
> 
> The low sale price to Pakistan is for Pakistan only. It is a bit like how the US provides military aid to Israel. If Argentina wants J-10C it will be quite a bit more expensive because China will also need to deal with political fallout with the UK.



Where did you get the payload and range figures for the F-16V and J-10C? I'm almost sure that the latter's specs haven't been leaked.

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## siegecrossbow

Akasa said:


> Where did you get the payload and range figures for the F-16V and J-10C? I'm almost sure that the latter's specs haven't been leaked.



It hasn’t. But based on limitations of deltas, especially one with a small span, it is most likely the case. J-10C doesn’t have wingtip pylons, and the inner pylons can only carry bombs unless you do some significant time consuming rewiring. Payload and range have been sacrificed for speed.

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## FuturePAF

Development C&P said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504233691861557251
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504264947160678402



The J-10 is a good purchase by the PAF to hedge against any 4.5 generation fighter India builds or procures or upgrades.

The size of radar of the J-10 is probably as large or nearly as large as that on a potential IN Super Hornet (who’s APG-79 uses GaA T/R Modules https://www.militaryaerospace.com/sensors/article/14203228/radar-airborne-combat-aircraft) or a potential upgraded the Su-30MKI that will probably use a scaled down radar under development for the Su-57 (1557 T/R Modules). With renewed export interest, perhaps there will be further development of the J-10 to surpass the capabilities of these jets, because as one of the PLAAF’s main fighter types, it will need to find a way to be survivable against 5th generation fighters, and in that process it will come up with ways to dominate 4.5 generation fighters. *The J-10 might become what the Russians had hoped the Su-75 would become. (Perhaps a future development with some aspects of the J-20’s wing and a switch to twin angled tails to lower RCS significantly?)*

Future development of the JF-17 to at least match a similar RCS/IR/EW signature with the Rafale should be a goal, as the radar nose cone sizes seem to be similar and *the JF-17 has the potential to hold its own against the Rafale with a more power engine, better TWR, and signature reductions through shaping*.

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## waz

Beast said:


> But there are still plenty of delusion who still cling onto hope of mending ties with US and get more F-16. They even prepare to give up sovereignty just for sake of some candies. I know some Pakistanis traitors even willing to give up Kashmir just to please Americans and get F-16 or Super Cobras.



The US weapons saga is long over, it's time the very few people who still have hope come to their senses. As if a ban on helicopters, engines, refusal to sell even second hand F-16's is not enough....It's just trade. No more weapons ever from them, as poor India might get hurt.

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## ghazi52

.....
PAF J10C Splitting Over The Parade Ground.
© Shamsher Niazi Photography
.






............

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## Oom

Chak Bamu said:


> What is outrageous is again you sense of entitlement, again. Why do you suppose the Chinese must provide Pakistan with their latest & greatest? Is there a particular reason or do you just consider it a birthright?


It’s not a sense of entitlement but necessity. Pakistan can’t match India in numbers, atleast we can try to achieve a qualitative edge.

And if Pakistan was today no more a strong nuclear and military power. Where do you think the 1.5 million Indian armed forces will turn their attention next to?.

A India unchecked by Pakistan, concentrating 100% of its attention on China, would exhaust Chinese energies (even with a technological edge, mountain warfare consumes a lot of manpower). Good luck to the Chinese than taking on the US, Japan, NATO, South Korea, Indonesia, Vietnam as well.

We Pakistanis fail to understand the value our strategic partnership provides China. And of course it’s equally beneficial to Pakistan as well. 

On a side note; China has done a lot for Pakistan. We are truly grateful.

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## Windjammer



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Scorpiooo



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## Windjammer



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## MultaniGuy

waz said:


> The US weapons saga is long over, it's time the very few people who still have hope come to their senses. As if a ban on helicopters, engines, refusal to sell even second hand F-16's is not enough....It's just trade. No more weapons ever from them, as poor India might get hurt.


Hopefully Pakistan will never buy military equipment from USA again.

That era is over now.

China has proven to be a much better ally than USA.

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## ghazi52

Prior to coming home.....................

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## Muhammad Saftain Anjum

MultaniGuy said:


> China has proven to be a much better ally than USA.


We will see.


MultaniGuy said:


> Hopefully Pakistan will never buy military equipment from USA again.


Geopolitical circumstances can change at any time.so..

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## Talon

Legio XI The Ironclads said:


> Hey does anyone know if the J10's get squadron specific tail art?
> Also i believe no:15 squadron traditionally had red checker marks on either nose or tail of their previous types.
> Cobra on the tail and red checkers high on the tail woule be cool.


Though every squadron has a checkered colour assigned to it but painting it on aircrafts is only a trend in Mirage squadrons. 

One exception are Arrows I think.



NA71 said:


> very interesting tweet regarding our J-10C:
> (Look at CH4 numbers as well)
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504213262954643456


As per my understanding, 25 is something like serial number. The column before is of number of aircrafts ordered but clearly the figures aren't mentioned.

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## sneakerspark

Hello there

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## Deino

Any idea, when the next batch will transfer?

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## Muhammed45

Congratulations to both Pakistan and China the strategic friends if not allies. J-10c will be a good addition to PAF considering the fact that JF-17 has subsystems similar to other Chinese products and PAF has been domestically producing some parts of it which makes the J-10 easy to maintain and a cost effective solution.

I think that the most important Fruit of acquiring the J-10 in case of PAF will be its cost effectiveness. Comparing PAF to IAF which us already using fighter jets and spare parts from multiple countries around the world, PAF despite having smaller fleet, smaller budget has done much better than the corrupt IAF. IAF's biggest nightmare is maintenance of its fighter jet fleet for the afforementioned reason.

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## Rafi

Muhammed45 said:


> Congratulations to both Pakistan and China the strategic friends if not allies. J-10c will be a good addition to PAF considering the fact that JF-17 has subsystems similar to other Chinese products and PAF has been domestically producing some parts of it which makes the J-10 easy to maintain and a cost effective solution.
> 
> I think that the most important Fruit of acquiring the J-10 in case of PAF will be its cost effectiveness. Comparing PAF to IAF which us already using fighter jets and spare parts from multiple countries around the world, PAF despite having smaller fleet, smaller budget has done much better than the corrupt IAF. IAF's biggest nightmare is maintenance of its fighter jet fleet for the afforementioned reason.



Thank you 😊 friend, we are definitely strategic allies, and I see J10c in IrAF as well hopefully, we can have joint exercises with China together.

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## araz

Beast said:


> But there are still plenty of delusion who still cling onto hope of mending ties with US and get more F-16. They even prepare to give up sovereignty just for sake of some candies. I know some Pakistanis traitors even willing to give up Kashmir just to please Americans and get F-16 or Super Cobras.


Dont put words into other people's mouths. You know very well why PAF and a lot of posters prefer more F16s. You also know that when matters pertaining to adversely effecting our security were suggested the government has point blank refused to do so. Thinking of an alternate way of doing things is neither delusional not traitorous. Everyone is very proud and happy to have J10s in our inventory but the 16s retain a utility in spite of all the limitations they bring.
A
A

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## PakShaheen79

Aesterix said:


> If PL-15E doesn't have dual pulse motor , then it's more rubbish than i thought.
> Dual pulse doesn't only increase range, it also helps in sustaining kinetic energy while maneuvers and terminal phase.
> The missile uses the second motor as close to the target as possible.
> That means the missile has a motor burning, when it needs thrust the most, at the last moments when it's twisting and turning to catch the target.


Sir if you think there are 2 physical motors in dual pulse motor missile. You have absolutely no idea what dual pulse motor is.

It's basically a technique to avoid expensive and complex stage separation mechanism which will have to be there in case of 2 physical motors. Instead, dual pulse motor rockets uses 2 kinds of propellants. One is fast burning producing higher thrust and is placed near the nozzle of rocket while other is relatively slow burning helping in sustaining the speed of rocket while ensuring longer range, and is placed farther from nozzle. There is a PSD in between the two but no physical separation takes place like in septation stage rockets we see in space or Ballistic missiles applications. A dual pulse motor is a single motor with 2 pulses.

PSD = Pulse Separation Device. It's an internal mechanism for ensuring that two propellants don't get mixed. 







Thank you.

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## Samar111

Pakistan made a good choice by buying the J-10C. A fighter jet on par with Rafale and maybe even Typhoon with is cost being only 50-60 million USD. I say well done. Much smarter than our stupid IAF paying so much for Rafale.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## PakShaheen79

Deino said:


> Any idea, when the next batch will transfer?


Most probably in the 2nd half of the year after budget.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Hex0maniac

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 824848


Do you have this in higher resolution?


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## The Terminator

Signalian said:


> Intrigued with your explanation. There are many variables which make it confusing.
> 
> If Chinese were making a data link, then a 5th gen would be in the making too side by side as another project. Technology is researched and implemented by keeping future technology/additions/expansion/upgrades in mind. A software update is much more easier than a hardware update, its cost effective too. The aircraft design team will be pissed off if the software team designs a module which needs a hardware change later on. Antennas, themselves can be configured by softwares for compatibility as well as operating over a large range of frequencies keeping future in mind apart from data link's own software configuration.
> 
> 1. What would be the requirement of a large throughput data link for a 5th gen only ? that it needs to send massive data compared to DLs(data links) carried by other aircrafts of older gen ?
> Is this a special or recon version of aircraft which needs high-res SAR sensors for mapping or collecting information from sensors for continuous transmission which requires dedicated bandwidth ?
> 
> 2. Why can't 4gen or 4.5 gen aircraft do the same ?
> e.g. EA-18G operates with F-35, both are different generation. One is EW and other is fighter. In other cases F-15s and F-22 could be operating together. Would that require addition of hardware like antennas on F-15s or EA-18s.
> 
> 3. Wasn't it plausible to keep the same version of data link in all aircraft for inter-operability ?
> 
> 
> Yeah, they have already sent along Brahmos.
> 
> 
> Why not delegate and shift the A2G responsibility to UCAVs, slowly and gradually ?


For all those datalink related issues you might consult F-35's level 4 update. Which drastically improves it's datalink capabilities and also includes costly hardware upgrades. Their details are more public than the Chinese equipment. And PAF have removed some unnecessary components to make it more cost effective for them. Yes when 5th gen fighters would come almost a decade later, these brand new fighters would be going through their 1st overhaul so can be refitted with datalink of that age.

The latest upgrades in F-35 can let them communicate with multiple assets at a time with directed communication beams which are harder to intercept and jam. And they can literally receive and relay HD video feeds to/from different sources and it can't be done in current tech of 2mbps link16. So 5th gen fighters have situational awareness, data fusion and data transfer rates a lot more higher than any 4th gen fighter could even handle it. This requires processors with multiple times more processing power and related equipment.

And it's like buying an expensive spacesuit but there isn't any rocket available to you to actually go into the space🙄🤣🤣😂😂. That's the whole purpose of modular system. You can upgrade as and when required and luckily PAC is skilled enough to install some communication modules in a jet, they wouldn't have to go to Canada to do that. 😜


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## The Terminator

Beast said:


> But there are still plenty of delusion who still cling onto hope of mending ties with US and get more F-16. They even prepare to give up sovereignty just for sake of some candies. I know some Pakistanis traitors even willing to give up Kashmir just to please Americans and get F-16 or Super Cobras.


Just wait for the opposition to come in power

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## dbc

huanghong said:


> Because compared to m61a, gsh-23 is more powerful.
> 3600rpm 175g vs 6000rpm 100g
> Why choose a less powerful weapon?



simple ToT (time on target) is limited so you need to send max rounds down range in the limited time the piper is on target and so rate of fire is prioritised.

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## MastanKhan

dbc said:


> simple ToT (time on target) is limited so you need to send max rounds down range in the limited time the piper is on target and so rate of fire is prioritised.



Hi,

Thanks for your post. GSH 23 is no match for the m61

GSH 23 is on a mounted platform and mounted platforms are not very accurate.


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## dbc

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for your post. GSH 23 is no match for the m61
> 
> GSH 23 is on a mounted platform and mounted platforms are not very accurate.





Any gun based on the Gast principle isn't really useful in air to air combat. Probably obvious from its placement on both the JF-17 and Tejas. I guess it is principally meant to strafe ground targets.

The M61 linkless feed system is reliable irrespective of own ship orientation (immune to G's) and it does not spit out spent casing and damage the aircraft when the canon is fired.

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## sneakerspark

The Dragon Roars

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## FuturePAF

Hodor said:


> Though every squadron has a checkered colour assigned to it but painting it on aircrafts is only a trend in Mirage squadrons.
> 
> One exception are Arrows I think.
> 
> 
> As per my understanding, 25 is something like serial number. The column before is of number of aircrafts ordered but clearly the figures aren't mentioned.


Could it be an indication the J-10s have a strike role (or taking over to some extent in that regard) as the new Deltas in the fleet?


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## lcloo

My personal opinion. Is it possible to modify all pylons on J10C to carry missiles of choice? Can you make a one time only modification on the central fusalge pylon and the two inner wing pylon so that there is no need to make the cumbersome penal removal whenever you want to change from fuel tank to AAM?

Tp me it looks like lack of inner space within the fuselage and the wing to accommodare hard wiring. Correct me if I am wrong.

However, solution is always achieved by the desire of needs. Yes, I believe you can made the neccesity modification if that is your need. Hard wiring is like your old landline phone in the office, solution is like a latest 5G smartphone that requuires no wiring.

Is it not possible to design a device for short range 5G command transmission from cockpit to a modified pylon to effect a missile launch? No wiring connecting missile pylon to the wing or the fuselage is required. I believe this is doable if you think beyond the box.

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## Salza

NA71 said:


> very interesting tweet regarding our J-10C:
> (Look at CH4 numbers as well)
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504213262954643456


So no Z10Es attack helicopters as claimed by some unverified sources.

I think Army is not much interested in attack helicopters anymore that is why they are inducting more attack drones instead. Perhaps change in doctrine. Also drones can provide us more waiting time for T129 alternate engine options.


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## Signalian

The Terminator said:


> For all those datalink related issues you might consult F-35's level 4 update. Which drastically improves it's datalink capabilities and also includes costly hardware upgrades. Their details are more public than the Chinese equipment. And PAF have removed some unnecessary components to make it more cost effective for them. Yes when 5th gen fighters would come almost a decade later, these brand new fighters would be going through their 1st overhaul so can be refitted with datalink of that age.
> 
> The latest upgrades in F-35 can let them communicate with multiple assets at a time with directed communication beams which are harder to intercept and jam. And they can literally receive and relay HD video feeds to/from different sources and it can't be done in current tech of 2mbps link16. So 5th gen fighters have situational awareness, data fusion and data transfer rates a lot more higher than any 4th gen fighter could even handle it. This requires processors with multiple times more processing power and related equipment.
> 
> And it's like buying an expensive spacesuit but there isn't any rocket available to you to actually go into the space🙄🤣🤣😂😂. That's the whole purpose of modular system. You can upgrade as and when required and luckily PAC is skilled enough to install some communication modules in a jet, they wouldn't have to go to Canada to do that. 😜


Three letters: S D R


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## huanghong

dbc said:


> simple ToT (time on target) is limited so you need to send max rounds down range in the limited time the piper is on target and so rate of fire is prioritised.


Unit time is considered power rather than speed.
1 second 105oog VS 10000G


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## HammerHead081

Rafi said:


> Thank you 😊 friend, we are definitely strategic allies, and I see J10c in IrAF as well hopefully, we can have joint exercises with China together.


LOL Hell no. The day these people get a competent fighter jet, you will see them doing pangas on the westren border. Sanctions on Iran are a blessing on Pakistan. Imagine the level of nusiance they will create once they are off.

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## Dazzler

siegecrossbow said:


> All those things are classified. For radar capability I think KLJ-7A x 1.5 is probably accurate.


The j10cp has some serious tech in it. I now realize why the CAS called it omnirole. He wasn't kidding nor imitating the Rafale.

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## araz

Beast said:


> The word of a traitor. All true Pakistanis remember you.
> 
> 
> Pakistanis armed forces has a very deep and good r/s with PLA. In Pakistan, politician usually comes in second. They also know the deep r/s of military ties between Sino-Pakistan.


I have taken exception to your post. I have reported you and leave subsequent decisions to moderators.
A

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## serenity

Dazzler said:


> The j10cp has some serious tech in it. I now realize why the CAS called it omnirole. He wasn't kidding nor imitating the Rafale.



Yep. AESA is indeed serious tech. The one on J-10CE may not be the exact same (but surely same model of AESA as PLAAF's J-10C) but it would still be China's gen 2 level fighter AESA, if not higher.

But I'm guessing you are not talking about just that. Is this just typical PDF "I know contacts and sources who tell me ..." and nothing actually known? or do you want to tell us something, even hints?

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## Windjammer



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## White privilege

So what are these _humps _ahead of the canards, some piece of equipment or just an _aerodynamic necessity _??

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## Talon

FuturePAF said:


> Could it be an indication the J-10s have a strike role (or taking over to some extent in that regard) as the new Deltas in the fleet?


J-10s role in PAF has been clearly demonstrated in it's induction ceremony .. you should look closely at the loadout again.

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## Deino

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 825611



Is there a reason why you constantly re-post images that were all posted several times before and then always only one image per post?

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## White privilege

Hodor said:


> J-10s role in PAF has been clearly demonstrated in it's induction ceremony .. you should look closely at the loadout again.


The Americans said that Chinese new KJ-500 was instrumental in their air-to-air kill chains.Will we be acquiring them for our _big sticks _too??


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## ChineseTiger1986

The Terminator said:


> J-10C was a news so that's why I always believed in the Pindi Boy due to his extensive relations in Pindi 😜. But J-20C is more of a speculation, a wish list. If you listen to his words carefully you would come to this conclusion.



The J-20 will most likely come around 2025 when China has successfully conducted the maiden flight for the 6th gen aircraft.

And the first foreign recipients of the J-20 should be no surprisingly Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

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## Bleek

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The J-20 will most likely come around 2025 when China has successfully conducted the maiden flight for the 6th gen aircraft.
> 
> And the first foreign recipients of the J-20 should be no surprisingly Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.


Saudi Arabia? 2025?

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## ChineseTiger1986

Bleek said:


> Saudi Arabia?



Well, they help China to establish the Petro-RMB, also bought the ICBMs from China according to our Saudi member from PDF.

There is a very high chance they will acquire the J-20 along with Pakistan in the next couple of years.

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## Bleek

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, they help China to establish the Petro-RMB, also bought the ICBMs from China according to our Saudi member from PDF.
> 
> There is a very high chance they will acquire the J-20 along with Pakistan in the next couple of years.


2025 is too early IMO. You should only sell J-20 once you have a decent amount of 6th generation fighters in service. 

Plus doesn't Saudi have good relations with US? You don't want your top of the line fighter there...

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## Dazzler

serenity said:


> Yep. AESA is indeed serious tech. The one on J-10CE may not be the exact same (but surely same model of AESA as PLAAF's J-10C) but it would still be China's gen 2 level fighter AESA, if not higher.
> 
> But I'm guessing you are not talking about just that. Is this just typical PDF "I know contacts and sources who tell me ..." and nothing actually known? or do you want to tell us something, even hints?


I'm not talking about the known tech. There's more that'll give Rafale a run for it's money.

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## Deino

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The J-20 will most likely come around 2025 when China has successfully conducted the maiden flight for the 6th gen aircraft.
> 
> And the first foreign recipients of the J-20 should be no surprisingly Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.




Do you really think we'll see a 6th generation fighter's maiden flight in 2025?


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## lcloo

White privilege said:


> So what are these _humps _ahead of the canards, some piece of equipment or just an _aerodynamic necessity _??
> View attachment 825688
> View attachment 825689


To minimised radar reflections from the canard root, thus decrease radar returns.

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## The Terminator

Signalian said:


> Three letters: S D R


I hope USAF or Pentagon would also have heard about SDR radios 😜


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## luciferdd

lcloo said:


> To minimised radar reflections from the canard root, thus decrease radar returns.


And there''s an ECM device inside.

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## siegecrossbow

White privilege said:


> So what are these _humps _ahead of the canards, some piece of equipment or just an _aerodynamic necessity _??
> View attachment 825688
> View attachment 825689



They didn’t have them on J-10A. There is speculation that they added them to reduce the RCS when canards make small movements since it hides both the gap and the sharp tip of the canard when observed from the front.

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## The Terminator

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The J-20 will most likely come around 2025 when China has successfully conducted the maiden flight for the 6th gen aircraft.
> 
> And the first foreign recipients of the J-20 should be no surprisingly Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.


I highly respect your ideas but IMHO J-20 would most probably work as insurance policy for Project Azm's fighter. God forbid if something goes wrong with that project or there comes an immediate requirement for the 5th gen fighter both J-20 and J-35 would be considered. I am more biased towards J-35 because of it's unique role and smaller and cheaper to operate, a mix of Hi-Lo platforms in the fleet.

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## The Terminator

White privilege said:


> So what are these _humps _ahead of the canards, some piece of equipment or just an _aerodynamic necessity _??
> View attachment 825688
> View attachment 825689


They definitely house some electronics, probably ECM/EW. their cover is also made of different material and color to further strengthen this statement.

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## Development C&P

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> The J-20 will most likely come around 2025 when China has successfully conducted the maiden flight for the 6th gen aircraft.
> 
> And the first foreign recipients of the J-20 should be no surprisingly Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.


Unless 6th gen aircraft Large scale loading has been realized in the PLAAF，
Otherwise, it should be unlikely to sell J20.
Even if the J20 foreign trade version of the system configuration is lowered, the export possibility feels very small.

Personally, export-type five generations may not be J20, more likely to be upgraded in J10, or size between J10 and J20, two engine medium 5th gen fighters.

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## Princeps Senatus

White privilege said:


> The Americans said that Chinese new KJ-500 was instrumental in their air-to-air kill chains.Will we be acquiring them for our _big sticks _too??


We already have Erieye's but if we can't datalink the J-10 with them then we can upgrade the existing ZDK-03's instead of buying new AWACS


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## siegecrossbow

White privilege said:


> The Americans said that Chinese new KJ-500 was instrumental in their air-to-air kill chains.Will we be acquiring them for our _big sticks _too??



Pakistan already holds an advantage over India in the AWACS department. I don’t think it is necessary to put changes KJ-500.

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## The Terminator

Bleek said:


> Saudi Arabia? 2025?


Lol don't you know China has signed Comprehensive Strategic Partnership agreements with most of the GCC countries years ago, helping Saudis to develop ballistic missiles and Nuclear energy along with much more military equipment deals to come. Which would never have been possible from US partnership. 

And due to Biden's policy towards KSA, GCC is getting even more closer to the China. Almost quarter of Saudi oil is exported to China. With Saudis and Russians under Chinese influence, there is a strong possibility of the great petrodollar being replaced by the petro-yuan. This isn't an insignificant matter. It could actually trigger WW3 or US invasion of the KSA. King Faysal only weaponized the oil, but Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi challenged petrodollar and you certainly know the fate of those people and their respective countries. (79% of the $ is generated from foreign demand in trade and oil import bills and only 21% worth of the dollar is created by mighty US of A GDP/internal economy)

Chinese Premier would visit KSA soon and it would be his 1st foreign visit since COVID-19 pandemic.


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## Development C&P

The Terminator said:


> Chinese Premier would visit KSA soon and it would be his 1st foreign visit since COVID-19 pandemic.


The President Xi has received an invitation, but it is still a question,
The Chinese media comments believe that Saudi Arabia so early release this news is to see the reactions of the parties, especially the United States, so the meeting between the two leaders can really realize the current unknown, the variable is large...

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## Windjammer



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## waz

Beast said:


> The word of a traitor. All true Pakistanis remember you.
> 
> 
> Pakistanis armed forces has a very deep and good r/s with PLA. In Pakistan, politician usually comes in second. They also know the deep r/s of military ties between Sino-Pakistan.



It’s an opinion and please do not use such words for a respected member.
I for example couldn’t give a damn about US arms sales and hope there will never be any again. Time and time again they have let Pakistan down.
I’d be gobsmacked if we ever see an offensive weapons sale again to Pakistan. Their congress loves India, who hilariously gave them the middle finger over Russia.

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## jaybird

Hodor said:


> Though every squadron has a checkered colour assigned to it but painting it on aircrafts is only a trend in Mirage squadrons.
> 
> One exception are Arrows I think.
> 
> 
> As per my understanding, 25 is something like serial number. The column before is of number of aircrafts ordered but clearly the figures aren't mentioned.



Hodor raise an very interesting point. We all thought 25 was the correct number of J-10C PAF ordered since it also correlate with what Sheikh Rasheed said.

But after reading Hodor's post I went to SIPRI website to look up what No.designation stands for. And it seems to meant

* "Weapon designation—the designation of the weapon system concerned".*

So, if this is correct then we still don't know how many J-10C PAF is actually getting, and SIPRI it self is just collecting information for the database from other websites only. It's not always accurate.

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## Beast

M.AsfandYar said:


> The audacity of this retard. @waz @The Eagle


Audacity? I guess you must stand the same line with araz for more F-16 for PAF by beg or compromise sovereignty of Pakistan ?

What other option do u have to get more F-16 from US, tell me?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Windjammer said:


>



The Canopy area of J10 and F16 look so similar

Amazing combination 100% great purchase by Pakistan , the J10C adds to depth of Airforce

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## Deino

M.AsfandYar said:


> The audacity of this retard. @waz @The Eagle




Calm down, Beast is a well respected member here since years, so stop with such comments!

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## Bleek

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 825686


Is that a smoke trail from the WS-10B engines?


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## Windjammer

Bleek said:


> Is that a smoke trail from the WS-10B engines?


Could be due to several factors, low altitude or simply engaging afterburner....here you see latest Russian stealth fighter, T-50 emitting smoke.

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## M.AsfandYar

Deino said:


> Calm down, Beast is a well respected member here since years, so stop with such comments!


What about his comments going about calling Pakistani traitors?

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## siegecrossbow

Windjammer said:


> Could be due to several factors, low altitude or simply engaging afterburner....here you see latest Russian stealth fighter, T-50 emitting smoke.
> 
> View attachment 825764



Even F-119 smokes when going from max dry thrust to after burner.











My take on smoke is that as long as it is not persistent and/or visible from dozens of kilometers away (as in the case of Mig-29) and would provide the enemy with a tactical advantage, it is fine.

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## jaybird

Beast said:


> I have speak the truth and you admit yourself. Everybody can see it for themselves how you behave especially for the patriotic Pakistanis.
> 
> 
> Everybody can see who wants good or bad for Pakistan. I just utter words no one dare to point it out. Even any fake banana pretending to speak for China like the @nang2 , I will too call him out.


Let the Pakistani members decide who are the traitors and who are the patriots themselves. People of Pakistan have different mindset and unique perspective from the Chinese. Right or wrong is not up to us to judge them, you can agree to disagree with their opinions but no need to be overbearing by calling out Pakistani members because their opinion is different from yours. 

It's different from calling out Chinese members as you are Chinese yourself. We as guests of the forum should respect that. How about follow China's policy of non interference on Pakistani internal matters. If they fancy more F-16, so be it.

There are certainly some people still have nostalgia feeling for F-16 and also wanted better relationship with the U.S due to personal interest or feel Pakistan should have a more balance relationship with both U.S and China. You might disagree with their decision but time will tell who is right and who is wrong. 

Besides, we are all online armchair generals anyway, it's the Pak and Chinese government that matters at the end of the day. Don't be too serious, it's better to just enjoy and follow the military matters and give some delusional Indians a reality check once a while instead of picking fights with Pakistani members that is detrimental to both Pakistan and China as far as people's relation is concern.

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## syed_yusuf

jaybird said:


> Hodor raise an very interesting point. We all thought 25 was the correct number of J-10C PAF ordered since it also correlate with what Sheikh Rasheed said.
> 
> But after reading Hodor's post I went to SIPRI website to look up what No.designation stands for. And it seems to meant
> 
> * "Weapon designation—the designation of the weapon system concerned".*
> 
> So, if this is correct then we still don't know how many J-10C PAF is actually getting, and SIPRI it self is just collecting information for the database from other websites only. It's not always accurate.
> 
> View attachment 825757
> View attachment 825758


I thought paf ordered close 60 not just 25


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## SQ8

Beast said:


> I have speak the truth and you admit yourself. Everybody can see it for themselves how you behave especially for the patriotic Pakistanis.
> 
> 
> Everybody can see who wants *good or bad for Pakistan*. I just utter words no one dare to point it out. Even any fake banana pretending to speak for China like the @nang2 , I will too call him out.


Who are you to decide? What is your qualification?

For the most part your post pattern since you joined is to start throwing out accusations and abuses against anyone who disagrees with you. It seems it has less to do with Pakistan or China and more to do with your ego of trying to be shown right all the time. Pakistan and China are irrelevant, you are here for self aggrandizement.

You can agree to disagree if you cannot prove your point without resorting to insults.

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## Princeps Senatus

Beast said:


> Audacity? I guess you must stand the same line with araz for more F-16 for PAF by beg or compromise sovereignty of Pakistan ?
> 
> What other option do u have to get more F-16 from US, tell me?


people said the same thing before we got Block 52+ and MLU out of nowhere, geopolitics are complex and the US is always playing 4D chess or at least they think they are


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## SQ8

jaybird said:


> Hodor raise an very interesting point. We all thought 25 was the correct number of J-10C PAF ordered since it also correlate with what Sheikh Rasheed said.
> 
> But after reading Hodor's post I went to SIPRI website to look up what No.designation stands for. And it seems to meant
> 
> * "Weapon designation—the designation of the weapon system concerned".*
> 
> So, if this is correct then we still don't know how many J-10C PAF is actually getting, and SIPRI it self is just collecting information for the database from other websites only. It's not always accurate.
> 
> View attachment 825757
> View attachment 825758


Two squadrons will be stood up at least. Pakistan prefers some economy of scale so it may not be surprising if three squadrons end up being the final number.

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## MastanKhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for your post. GSH 23 is no match for the m61
> 
> GSH 23 is on a mounted platform and mounted platforms are not very accurate.



Hi,

Guns mounted on a pod are good for straffing---eg---the gun mounted on the Phantom---did it ever make a kill other than satisfy the US congress---. It was extremely inaccurate---it would shake a lot during firing a terrible solution to a non existing problem.

Now the guns mounted on the frame---like the F86---F16's and other similar types are the preferred option---because being mounted on the frame they don't shake independently of the aircraft.

I remember reading an article about the first air to air between the F16 and ex east german mig 29 after an excercize---

a comment was made about the slow firing rate of the russian weapon to which the german pilot replied---" that is correct---but it would on take one round to do massive damage to yourt aircraft "

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## dbc

MastanKhan said:


> Now the guns mounted on the frame---like the F86---F16's and other similar types are the preferred option---because being mounted on the frame they don't shake independently of the aircraft.


not quite ... The Mig-27 has been known to unravel when firing its GSh-6-30 a Russian gatling gun. 

internal gun on Su-35 is known to cause PTSD

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## Scorpiooo



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## Abramar

White privilege said:


> So what are these _humps _ahead of the canards, some piece of equipment or just an _aerodynamic necessity _??
> View attachment 825688
> View attachment 825689


More than likely some kind of Radar Warning Receiver(RWR).


----------



## Scorpiooo



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## MajesticPug

Broccoli said:


> TVC engines were seen as good addition in 1980-2000 but then helmet mounted sights combined with more manurevable short-range missiles become reality so TVCs only pros are good looking stunts in airshows.
> 
> TVC engines biggest negatives are higher cost and weight.



Shorter life too. That means higher frequency of maintenance.

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## Big_bud

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.
> View attachment 824909
> 
> 
> -.,,



Those wings are a piece of art! Pretty unique curves! Certainly an interesting bird!

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## Dazzler

luciferdd said:


> And there''s an ECM device inside.


Comprehensive ew management system comprised of six subsystems.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ChineseTiger1986

Bleek said:


> 2025 is too early IMO. You should only sell J-20 once you have a decent amount of 6th generation fighters in service.
> 
> Plus doesn't Saudi have good relations with US? You don't want your top of the line fighter there...



The US already exported the F-15 in large number before the induction of the F-22.

The Saudi have supported the Petro-RMB, and it is a breach of the red line for the US.



Deino said:


> Do you really think we'll see a 6th generation fighter's maiden flight in 2025?



According to the chief designer of the J-20, the year of 2025 will be another important milestone.



Development C&P said:


> Unless 6th gen aircraft Large scale loading has been realized in the PLAAF，
> Otherwise, it should be unlikely to sell J20.
> Even if the J20 foreign trade version of the system configuration is lowered, the export possibility feels very small.
> 
> Personally, export-type five generations may not be J20, more likely to be upgraded in J10, or size between J10 and J20, two engine medium 5th gen fighters.



Their ministry of defense looks quite confident that the procuration of the J-20 will be available in the near future.

It looks like China has already given the green light.


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## Shotgunner51

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Well, they help China to establish the Petro-RMB, also bought the ICBMs from China according to our Saudi member from PDF.
> 
> There is a very high chance they will acquire the J-20 along with Pakistan in the next couple of years.


I don't believe China has sold any ICBM to KSA, at least up to this moment, the only known missiles are DF-3A and DF-21, neither one is inter-continental. I don't see the House of Saud has any need of ICBM, let alone they don't have any nuke warheads to deliver.

I think J-20 will remain exclusive to PLAAF for OPSEC reasons, especially when this system may soon evolves into Mum-T (Manned-Unmanned Teaming) stage aka a two-seater J-20 plus four wingmen. J-20 is more like a mini-AWAC of a NCW combat system.

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## Rafi

2025 J20P, hypersonic drones, UCAV stealth drones................nuff said.

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## Bleek

Rafi said:


> 2025 J20P, hypersonic drones, UCAV stealth drones................nuff said.


You're missing the ICBM

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## ChineseTiger1986

Shotgunner51 said:


> I don't believe China has sold any ICBM to KSA, at least up to this moment, the only known missiles are DF-3A and DF-21, neither one is inter-continental. I don't see the House of Saud has any need of ICBM, let alone they don't have any nuke warheads to deliver.
> 
> I think J-20 will remain exclusive to PLAAF for OPSEC reasons, especially when this system may soon evolves into Mum-T (Manned-Unmanned Teaming) stage aka a two-seater J-20 plus four wingmen. J-20 is more like a mini-AWAC of a NCW combat system.



Let's see, we don't expect the the Petro-RMB to emerge so quickly.

Before that, Saudi only took the USD, not even Euro as the settlement.


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## Shotgunner51

ChineseTiger1986 said:


> Let's see, we don't expect the the Petro-RMB to emerge so quickly.
> 
> Before that, Saudi only took the USD, not even Euro as the settlement.


The negotiation of petroyuan has been going on for 6 years, so perhaps it's just going as planned? Though recent geopolitical events might have helped speeding the petroyuan, but ICBM is an entirely different thing, cos even if China is willing to sell (together with whole command & control package), KSA must own a meaningful stockpile of thermonuclear warheads.

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## SQ8

Shotgunner51 said:


> The negotiation of petroyuan has been going on for 6 years, so perhaps it's just going as planned? Though recent geopolitical events might have helped speeding the petroyuan, but ICBM is an entirely different thing, cos even if China is willing to sell (together with whole command & control package), KSA must own a "meaningful" stockpile of thermonuclear weapons.


There were pre-existing M-11 batteries in KSA which have been replaced with additional products apparently. The discussion on nuclear weapons is a a very tangential route with many rumors surrounding it including apparently tacit ones of “lost” material ending up in KSA with scientists from a friendly country in case Iran decides to make one.
It’s all about balance which is why you will never see the US comment even if China provides KSA with a brand new IRBM.

Unfortunately, most of us cannot see beyond 3-5 colors when this is a multi-polar/dimensional/spectrum/allegiance world.



Rafi said:


> *2025 J20P,* hypersonic drones, UCAV stealth drones................nuff said.


Option for it. Really depends upon success of AZM’s 5th gen component which will be evaluated around that timeframe. If the PAF thinks it’s taking too long or not worth it they will pull the trigger on a Chinese platform.

But the these are “Jaane kya tu ne kahi, jaane kya mein ne suni” things

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## tphuang

I will guarantee one thing. China is not going to export j20 or gj11 before 2027. If you don't know why, you have not been following pla close enough.

Also, they can't sell icbm to anyone.

I will say this. For all the items that people on this forum want to buy, I am really surprised no one has even mentioned gj11 or a successor of it. That's the most advanced strike ucav in the world in advanced development. No indian Sam will be able to track it. Outside of 5th generation aircraft, I can't think of any single platform that would threaten Indian air force and air defense more. Also, it's something that India will realistically never be able to buy from Russia or America.

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## Akasa

tphuang said:


> I will guarantee one thing. China is not going to export j20 or gj11 before 2027. If you don't know why, you have not been following pla close enough.
> 
> Also, they can't sell icbm to anyone.
> 
> I will say this. For all the items that people on this forum want to buy, I am really surprised no one has even mentioned gj11 or a successor of it. That's the most advanced strike ucav in the world in advanced development. No indian Sam will be able to track it. Outside of 5th generation aircraft, I can't think of any single platform that would threaten Indian air force and air defense more. Also, it's something that India will realistically never be able to buy from Russia or America.



The CH-7 is a more appropriate candidate for countries to purchase. I'm not sure if the GJ-11, being the first heavy stealth combat UAV in PLAAF services, would be cleared for export in the near future.

I wouldn't say it's the most advanced strike UCAV in development; the Okhotnik-B should be similar in technology and yet with a greater payload.

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## Signalian

The Terminator said:


> I hope USAF or Pentagon would also have heard about SDR radios 😜


Cognitive radio for aero comms


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## Beast

Akasa said:


> The CH-7 is a more appropriate candidate for countries to purchase. I'm not sure if the GJ-11, being the first heavy stealth combat UAV in PLAAF services, would be cleared for export in the near future.
> 
> I wouldn't say it's the most advanced strike UCAV in development; the Okhotnik-B should be similar in technology and yet with a greater payload.


I don't think Okhotnik-B shall have similar technology. It may have the shape but there is the radar cross section reduction material, electronic signature evading and enemy EW counter measures which I believe Russian still struggle to replicate from China.

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## Akasa

Beast said:


> I don't think Okhotnik-B shall have similar technology. It may have the shape but there is the radar cross section reduction material, electronic signature evading and enemy EW counter measures which I believe Russian still struggle to replicate from China.



And this is concluded based on what?


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## Beast

Akasa said:


> And this is concluded based on what?


Based on the obsolete Su-35 we received from Russia which claim to be preimier operational plane of RuAF. While Russia now still struggle with Su-57 and many other projects.

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## tphuang

Akasa said:


> The CH-7 is a more appropriate candidate for countries to purchase. I'm not sure if the GJ-11, being the first heavy stealth combat UAV in PLAAF services, would be cleared for export in the near future.
> 
> I wouldn't say it's the most advanced strike UCAV in development; the Okhotnik-B should be similar in technology and yet with a greater payload.


Have you seen the nozzle on that thing? Not VLO to the same level at all.

If this Ukrainian conflict tells anything, it would be that Russian EW and precision strike technology is really bad. And more importantly, Russia won't have the money to finish developing that thing.

As for the first part, China will have something replacing GJ-11 in the future. After all, they export GJ-2 that also gets used by PLAAF. There is no reason China won't export GJ-11 with 5th gen aircraft down by 2030. It won't be cheap.

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## SQ8

tphuang said:


> Have you seen the nozzle on that thing? Not VLO to the same level at all.
> 
> If this Ukrainian conflict tells anything, it would be that Russian EW and precision strike technology is really bad. And more importantly, Russia won't have the money to finish developing that thing.
> 
> As for the first part, China will have something replacing GJ-11 in the future. After all, they export GJ-2 that also gets used by PLAAF. There is no reason China won't export GJ-11 with 5th gen aircraft down by 2030. It won't be cheap.


Not really bad but static since early 2010s due to brain drain.



tphuang said:


> I will guarantee one thing. China is not going to export j20 or gj11 before 2027. If you don't know why, you have not been following pla close enough.
> 
> Also, they can't sell icbm to anyone.
> 
> I will say this. For all the items that people on this forum want to buy, I am really surprised no one has even mentioned gj11 or a successor of it. That's the most advanced strike ucav in the world in advanced development. No indian Sam will be able to track it. Outside of 5th generation aircraft, I can't think of any single platform that would threaten Indian air force and air defense more. Also, it's something that India will realistically never be able to buy from Russia or America.


Chengdu offered a clean sheet design to PAF ten years ago that would be more mature(in many respects) to J-20. However, paucity of funds and conflicting priorities of PAF and Pakistani leadership in general meant that went nowhere. Just as the J-10A was offered for export back in 2006 to Pakistan there are slight concessions given to Pakistan in general. 
That being said, it is subject to immediate change based on the assessment of Chinese representatives in Pakistan of Pakistani leadership and western compromised personnel within the military and otherwise

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## Hex0maniac

Right now PAF has most diverse combat fleet.
J-10C
JF-17
F-16
F-7P
F-7PG
Mirage 3
Mirage 5

Sure most of them are close to retire and replace, but I will cherish every moment of it.

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## Akasa

tphuang said:


> Have you seen the nozzle on that thing? Not VLO to the same level at all.
> 
> If this Ukrainian conflict tells anything, it would be that Russian EW and precision strike technology is really bad. And more importantly, Russia won't have the money to finish developing that thing.
> 
> As for the first part, China will have something replacing GJ-11 in the future. After all, they export GJ-2 that also gets used by PLAAF. There is no reason China won't export GJ-11 with 5th gen aircraft down by 2030. It won't be cheap.



The GJ-11 prototype, back when it was still referred to as the Sharp Sword, also did not exhibit IR shielding for its engine nozzles, so it's a bit premature to say that the Okhotnik-B won't be undergoing similar revisions once it nears production. 

The GJ-11 just finished its development, so it will be a while before the PLAAF finds something to replace it, not to mention that the technological disparity between the GJ-2 and GJ-11 means that we can't say that the PLAAF will export the latter just because the GJ-2 was sold to other countries.

So the only option for countries willing to pay for a GJ-11-like capability would be the CH-7.



Beast said:


> Based on the obsolete Su-35 we received from Russia which claim to be preimier operational plane of RuAF. While Russia now still struggle with Su-57 and many other projects.



I fail to see how this relates to your claim that the Okhotnik-B won't have similar RCS reduction or level of avionics compared to that of the GJ-11.


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## Beast

Akasa said:


> I fail to see how this relates to your claim that the Okhotnik-B won't have similar RCS reduction or level of avionics compared to that of the GJ-11.


Its all related. A premier weapon demonstrate your national military technological level,

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## Goritoes

Sorry for this simple question, but can anyone tell which Radar Pakistan's J-10 uses ? Is it AESA ?

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## tphuang

Akasa said:


> The GJ-11 prototype, back when it was still referred to as the Sharp Sword, also did not exhibit IR shielding for its engine nozzles, so it's a bit premature to say that the Okhotnik-B won't be undergoing similar revisions once it nears production.
> 
> The GJ-11 just finished its development, so it will be a while before the PLAAF finds something to replace it, not to mention that the technological disparity between the GJ-2 and GJ-11 means that we can't say that the PLAAF will export the latter just because the GJ-2 was sold to other countries.
> 
> So the only option for countries willing to pay for a GJ-11-like capability would be the CH-7.
> 
> I fail to see how this relates to your claim that the Okhotnik-B won't have similar RCS reduction or level of avionics compared to that of the GJ-11.


The reason is that with Ukraine war and being cut off from the West, Russia would be lucky to get Su-57 finished let alone any other major items. It's kind of pointless to have a UCAV teaming with a non-existent manned fighter jet. Russian EW is really weak https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...eaknesses-endure-while-other-nations-innovate. Still cannot even get an AESA AWACS developed in this day and age.

As for GJ-11 export, I think it would be possible to PAF along with a 5th generation aircraft. It's a real force multiplier. By 2030, PLAAF would have something more advanced in all likelihood.


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## Dreamer.

Goritoes said:


> Sorry for this simple question, but can anyone tell which Radar Pakistan's J-10 uses ? Is it AESA ?



It's the one that shall not be named.

Regarding AESA, it was always supposed to have an AESA and it was also announced during the induction ceremony by PAF, so it's kind of official aswell.



tphuang said:


> The reason is that with Ukraine war and being cut off from the West, Russia would be lucky to get Su-57 finished let alone any other major items. It's kind of pointless to have a UCAV teaming with a non-existent manned fighter jet. Russian EW is really weak https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...eaknesses-endure-while-other-nations-innovate. Still cannot even get an AESA AWACS developed in this day and age.
> 
> As for GJ-11 export, I think it would be possible to PAF along with a 5th generation aircraft. It's a real force multiplier. By 2030, PLAAF would have something more advanced in all likelihood.


@tphuang @Beast @Akasa , nice discussion but *J-10 for PAF* thread pls.

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## Akasa

tphuang said:


> The reason is that with Ukraine war and being cut off from the West, Russia would be lucky to get Su-57 finished let alone any other major items. It's kind of pointless to have a UCAV teaming with a non-existent manned fighter jet. Russian EW is really weak https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...eaknesses-endure-while-other-nations-innovate. Still cannot even get an AESA AWACS developed in this day and age.
> 
> As for GJ-11 export, I think it would be possible to PAF along with a 5th generation aircraft. It's a real force multiplier. By 2030, PLAAF would have something more advanced in all likelihood.



The Su-57 has already entered IOC, so the biggest roadblock would be funding for more units and future upgrade programs, not R&D anymore. I suspect that funding is also the bottleneck for their AESA programs since they already have the tech in place in the form of the Zhuk-AE and Byelka systems.

Let's not kid ourselves, it'll be years and years before the PAF could ever plan to import 5th-gen fighters and UCAVs from China, and even when that time comes the only options available to them would be the FC-31 and CH-7, respectively. Not that they're lackluster systems, of course.

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## Goritoes

Dreamer. said:


> It's the one that shall not be named.
> 
> Regarding AESA, it was always supposed to have an AESA and it was also announced during the induction ceremony by PAF, so it's kind of official aswell.


Wait, you mean no one knows for certain ? Hain


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## tphuang

Akasa said:


> The Su-57 has already entered IOC, so the biggest roadblock would be funding for more units and future upgrade programs, not R&D anymore. I suspect that funding is also the bottleneck for their AESA programs since they already have the tech in place in the form of the Zhuk-AE and Byelka systems.


having 3 production aircraft does not mean you achieved IOC.

At the current pace, Russia will be buying advanced weaponry from China.


Akasa said:


> Let's not kid ourselves, it'll be years and years before the PAF could ever plan to import 5th-gen fighters and UCAVs from China, and even when that time comes the only options available to them would be the FC-31 and CH-7, respectively. Not that they're lackluster systems, of course.


By the second half of this decade, China will be actively promoting FC-31 and unmanned UCAV to export customers. As a top tier ally, Pakistan will have access to certain platforms not available to other countries.

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## Dreamer.

Goritoes said:


> Wait, you mean no one knows for certain ? Hain


Guess you haven't read the entire thread, have you? 😉


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## Goritoes

Dreamer. said:


> Guess you haven't read the entire thread, have you? 😉


I go through it, but i am lazy to go again  have some mercy on old man and tell me

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## Akasa

tphuang said:


> having 3 production aircraft does not mean you achieved IOC.
> 
> At the current pace, Russia will be buying advanced weaponry from China.


The Su-57 entered service in December 2020 as reported by TASS, and I'm sure by now we've all seen its combat debut in Syria, so the question is how many the RuAF is able to afford and at what pace, not whether or not the project will get done.



tphuang said:


> Pakistan will have access to certain platforms not available to other countries.


And this is based on what?


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## V. Makarov

jaybird said:


> Besides, we are all online armchair generals anyway


Fellow Generals

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## Dreamer.

Goritoes said:


> I go through it, but i am lazy to go again  have some mercy on old man and tell me


It was discussed earlier that's all. Details of the radar and exact designation are unknown. And like I said it was always supposed to be an AESA radar since it is one of the key enhancements in what is J-10's block 3 (C version). And this was also announced as having an AESA radar in induction ceremony so we know that much.

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## cssniper

Compare to J-10C deal, I think 5th gen fighter project of PAF will be affected by the choice of IAF. PAF needs quality to fight quantity. 
There are several choices for IAF:AMCA,SU-57, SU-75, F-35. 
If the Indian go for AMCA or SU-75, there is plenty of time to observe their progress and to choose the counter way.

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## Signalian

Goritoes said:


> I go through it, but i am lazy to go again  have some mercy on old man and tell me


Radar's name is DHA Phase 8.

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## Goritoes

Signalian said:


> Radar's name is DHA Phase 8.


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## Signalian

Goritoes said:


> View attachment 825888


Just a repetition of your own posts, mentioning DHA at every opportunity, just got to know you take your own posts as a joke.

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## Deino

*Guys … this is the PAF J-10C thread so please stop with this off-topic stuff like Su-57 IOC, Petrodollars or Petroyuan, Saudi and ICBM and J-20s from China!*

@The Eagle

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## araz

SQ8 said:


> Two squadrons will be stood up at least. Pakistan prefers some economy of scale so it may not be surprising if three squadrons end up being the final number.


Agree with you. I think once PAF decides to induct a project, it will induct enough to make it economically viable as well as strategically sound. 60 to 90 in various blocks is what we may be looking at.
An interesting thought is how this implies to subsequent production of JFT. Do we cap it at 188-200 or do we go on? What would be the reasons for capping production( possibly not for discussion on an open forum) and what would be the reasons for going on?
With 60 J10, 75 F16s and 200-250 JFT plus 50 Mirages we have a sound fleet of 4generation fighters plus mirages in a niche role of SOW delivery platform. The PAF has not been so well equipped for a long time ( possibly since the 80s).
A

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## Ghessan

jaybird said:


> *1. Let the Pakistani members decide who are the traitors and who are the patriots themselves.* People of Pakistan have different mindset and unique perspective from the Chinese. Right or wrong is not up to us to judge them, you can agree to disagree with their opinions but no need to be overbearing by calling out Pakistani members because their opinion is different from yours.
> 
> It's different from calling out Chinese members as you are Chinese yourself. *2. We as guests of the forum should respect that. *How about follow China's policy of non interference on Pakistani internal matters. If they fancy more F-16, so be it.
> 
> There are certainly some people still have nostalgia feeling for F-16 and also wanted better relationship with the U.S due to personal interest or feel Pakistan should have a more balance relationship with both U.S and China. You might disagree with their decision but time will tell who is right and who is wrong.
> 
> Besides, we are all online armchair generals anyway, it's the Pak and Chinese government that matters at the end of the day. Don't be too serious, it's better to just enjoy and follow the military matters and give some delusional Indians a reality check once a while instead of picking fights with Pakistani members that is detrimental to both Pakistan and China as far as people's relation is concern.


thank you for this.
1. this is what is to be considered by "*ALL*" who are member here but belong to other countries and same applies to everyone even us Pakistanis.

2. this is what all must understand regardless of what status he or she bear on this forum.

regarding F-16s, i will only add we among us always have a heated debate on this issue and have different point of view,
when PAF isn't letting go of it, people here are also crazy about it for some reason.

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## Signalian

Dreamer. said:


> Due to rampant housing societies including DHA we now need to import basic neccessities such as wheat (and other food items) in an agricultural country! Other factors exist but this is a major one. We are building DHA's, Bahria towns, other societies etc. so that we can starve our children but give them posh villas to live in.
> 
> Sorry for the  rant.


Been thinking to start topic on DHA, however airforce and navy also get their share of housing societies.



Goritoes said:


> Seems like you are one of the beneficiary of the DHA housing. But here I want to know the Radar on J-10.


When you get to know about the J10 radar you will be satisfied right ? They should give you a Dha plot too, to satisfy you.

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## Signalian

Deino said:


> *Guys … this is the PAF J-10C thread so please stop with this off-topic stuff like Su-57 IOC, Petrodollars or Petroyuan, Saudi and ICBM and J-20s from China!*
> 
> @The Eagle


PL-15 can only be launched by an AESA equipped aircraft ?


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## WinterFangs



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## leviathan

Signalian said:


> PL-15 can only be launched by an AESA equipped aircraft ?


no, buy why fire a 145km+ misslle from a 120km radar?

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## Signalian

leviathan said:


> no, buy why fire a 145km+ misslle from a 120km radar?


The ranges written all over the internet seem inconsistent. Im not worried about ranges.

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## PakAlp

iLION12345_1 said:


> 48 F7PGs. Mirages are more than 80 I think, but not by much. Definitely nowhere near 200.



We have 75 f16s, 25J10CEs, 186 JF17s. 296 4th generation jets. Need 104 more planes and were all done for replacement. Total 400 planes are enough. We probably order 50 more Jf17 blocks 3s and 50 J10CEs.



ghazi52 said:


> ....
> This is something you don't see everyday!
> PAF F-16D Block 52+ from No.5 Sqn "Falcons" with J-10C from No.15 Sqn "Cobras" over the skies of ISB...
> 
> 
> View attachment 824093
> 
> ..


 J10CE looks like a beast.

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## Windjammer

Must say at first I wasn't too keen on the J-10, being some Six feet longer and Two feet taller than the F-16, I thought it's bit large for a single engine, but for some reason in PAF colours it looks different even close to a EFT than anything else. 
Besides, in our culture, supporting Moustache is considered Manly.

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## iLION12345_1

PakAlp said:


> We have 75 f16s, 25J10CEs, 186 JF17s. 296 4th generation jets. Need 104 more planes and were all done for replacement. Total 400 planes are enough. We probably order 50 more Jf17 blocks 3s and 50 J10CEs.
> 
> 
> J10CE looks like a beast.


We don’t have 186 JF-17s. We have 134 with 30 on order at the moment. 
And why do you think 400 planes are enough and that we can pay for 50 more J-10CE? Speculative wishlists aren’t helpful.



leviathan said:


> no, buy why fire a 145km+ misslle from a 120km radar?


Except the ranges for all three radars and every missile In question is unknown.

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## PakAlp

iLION12345_1 said:


> We don’t have 186 JF-17s. We have 134 with 30 on order at the moment.
> And why do you think 400 planes are enough and that we can pay for 50 more J-10CE? Speculative wishlists aren’t helpful.



50 Jf17 block 3s will be inducted soon. Why would Pakistan only buy 25J10CEs? There will be order for more Jets. I am guessing 50 more. So our total numbers will be 400 Jets. Mirages will be in storage just incase of war. After this Pakistan will concentrate on a 5th generation Jet. If Pakistan wants more than 400 jets then the economy needs to be improved.
Everything is speculative.


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## NA71

Riz said:


> Bad news for PDF members: You will not see any JF-17 blk3 in this year parade day fly pass, inshallah you will see thunder roars in next few years


next few months rather....next few years means they are under initial development phase. We have some 10~12 B3 already (I guess)

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## jaybird

Windjammer said:


> Must say at first I wasn't too keen on the J-10, being some Six feet longer and Two feet taller than the F-16, I thought it's bit large for a single engine, but for some reason in PAF colours it looks different even close to a EFT than anything else.
> Besides, in our culture, supporting Moustache is considered Manly.
> 
> View attachment 825927


It's understandable! The other day I ran into my ex girl friend in the street with a little boy that looks hideous. But don't want to act bitter and being a gentleman I went up to say hi to both.

Ex girl friend say unfortunately her boy looks kinda like his daddy. And then tells the boy to say hi to your asshole daddy. I cried and all of the sudden the little boy look cooler and more handsome than Tom cruise in the TOP Gun movie. 





_
just a joke._

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## Bleek

Riz said:


> Bad news for PDF members: You will not see any JF-17 blk3 in this year parade day fly pass, inshallah you will see thunder roars in next few years


Where did you get this news?

Why pushed back to next few years?

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## The Eagle

Riz said:


> Bad news for PDF members: You will not see any JF-17 blk3 in this year parade day fly pass, inshallah you will see thunder roars in next few years





Riz said:


> Not under development but dozens of them were in testing stage for the past few months , and if they still not allow to flypast then what it means ??



I don't know what to make anything out of these two posts of yours. You just made a claim and then you are confused or assuming things. Will you and others be kind enough and not to draw wrong conclusions? If you need to know something, just ask it in particular thread and someone having knowledge on the matter will answer if it was permitted.

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## NA71

The Eagle said:


> I don't know what to make anything out of these two posts of yours. You just made a claim and then you are confused or assuming things. Will you and others be kind enough and not to draw wrong conclusions? If you need to know something, just ask it in particular thread and someone having knowledge on the matter will answer if it was permitted.


I deleted my post...Yes..... no speculation...no guess work for our love birds


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## Riz

The Eagle said:


> I don't know what to make anything out of these two posts of yours. You just made a claim and then you are confused or assuming things. Will you and others be kind enough and not to draw wrong conclusions? If you need to know something, just ask it in particular thread and someone having knowledge on the matter will answer if it was permitted.


Im banned in jf-17 blk3 thread , and its not good to discuss about jf-17 here

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## The Eagle

Riz said:


> Im banned in jf-17 blk3 thread , and its not good to discuss about jf-17 here



Indeed, these couple of posts reminds us all the reason for ban as such. Even though, if something necessary to be discussed; you are still making wrong conclusions & misleading everyone. I will rather suggest to not to do that if you don't know anything.


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## SecularNationalist

So finally SR was right 

So this jet is the power advanced we have in inventory right? It leaves F-16 behind.


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## serenity

tphuang said:


> Have you seen the nozzle on that thing? Not VLO to the same level at all.
> 
> If this Ukrainian conflict tells anything, it would be that Russian EW and precision strike technology is really bad. And more importantly, Russia won't have the money to finish developing that thing.
> 
> As for the first part, China will have something replacing GJ-11 in the future. After all, they export GJ-2 that also gets used by PLAAF. There is no reason China won't export GJ-11 with 5th gen aircraft down by 2030. It won't be cheap.





Akasa said:


> The GJ-11 prototype, back when it was still referred to as the Sharp Sword, also did not exhibit IR shielding for its engine nozzles, so it's a bit premature to say that the Okhotnik-B won't be undergoing similar revisions once it nears production.
> 
> The GJ-11 just finished its development, so it will be a while before the PLAAF finds something to replace it, not to mention that the technological disparity between the GJ-2 and GJ-11 means that we can't say that the PLAAF will export the latter just because the GJ-2 was sold to other countries.
> 
> So the only option for countries willing to pay for a GJ-11-like capability would be the CH-7.
> 
> 
> 
> I fail to see how this relates to your claim that the Okhotnik-B won't have similar RCS reduction or level of avionics compared to that of the GJ-11.





Beast said:


> Its all related. A premier weapon demonstrate your national military technological level,



Hunter is for air superiority and loyal wingman but not the same small UCAV like Boeing's two loyal wingman UCAVs.

Basically China is going with Dark Sword as heavy air superiority UCAV that is to be integrated closely with J-20 and J-16 but also certainly AI operated. Recent leaks from Chinese government mentioned AI pilots making considerable progress and hinting at defeating manned pilots. AI technology in US and China are already well into this level. I would be surprised if AI is not already superior to best human pilots in at least battlefield decision making. Certainly already superior in battlefield situation awareness. GJ-11 is strike focused. Hunter and GJ-11 are both flying wings but have different roles. X-47B also a flying wing UCAV and yet another separate role compared to those two. Out of those three, only GJ-11 is in service. US have flying wing UAV for recon (and so does Iran) but only GJ-11 is the known in service UCAV for actual firing weapons.

If we are to assume US has some other UCAVs in service, there is equal chance Chinese Dark Sword is also close to if not in service since the secrecy level of these two are similar if not the Chinese being even more secretive with important military intel.

Hunter or Okhotnik is still a demonstration and prototyping. No different to GJ-11's prototype Sharp Sword back in before 2012. It was photographed by public flying in 2013. Come on, it was flying in secret before that and test flying far away from cities.

Anyway Hunter's role equivalent is Dark Sword UCAV. GJ-11's mock up shown in 2019 parade is basically identical in geometry and structure to the actual GJ-11 in service. During parades, the missiles that are mockups for example HHQ-9 displayed or YJ-12 or YJ-18 are usually mockups but the mockups used for parade are 1:1 identical to the weapon. The GJ-11 has what is known in English by BAe as "wing circulating control" or basically replacing moving control surfaces (even flying wings use these typically) with ejected gas along certain areas.

https://www.c4isrnet.com/unmanned/2019/05/06/stealthy-flapless-drone-steers-with-vectored-thrust/

GJ-11 have very few moving control surfaces if any at all and relies on this new system which BAe only envisions and have modelling tests not even prototype. GJ-11 completed this and put it into service. China was at 90 and bragged and said nothing while UK was at 10 and already started marketing and media has articles writing on it. Doesn't mean just because media is hyping BAe's system, the idea is theirs or who is most ahead is them. In any case today, GJ-11 has for last three years at least been using this control system while BAe is still today sitting on models rather than even near service level prototypes.







GJ-11 (if you follow Chinese military observers and commentators who have been proven reliable over time) has all these and the nozzle completed. This is a mockup but the real aircraft uses the completed stealth "nozzle" instead of just the typical prototype's afterburning engine nozzle. As it uses a non-afterburning version of WS-13 and makes use of control by thrust ejected through certain points along its airframe.

The whole purpose of GJ-11 is absolute total stealth to especially S and X band, more than the J-20, B-2, B-21, F-117, F-22, F-35...

Chinese state media had a documentary military show (which is common and whole channel dedicated) which had PLA interviewed saying one sentence on GJ-11 and basically implying it is PLA's greatest strike asset and after integrating its use into the wider doctrine, the performance of GJ-11 and what it is able to do for PLA is simply unprecedented. I remember the PLA guy even saying the GJ-11 ain't that impressive compared to what's being developed.

Comparing GJ-11 with Okhotnik is comparing a F-117 in Desert Storm to a Su-57 prototype. Again, China's own "Su-57" in this analogy is the Dark Sword and not the GJ-11.

Chinese 5th gens won't be for sale until China has 6th gens close to service and not just test flying. Why? because they are too sensitive! Why you say then does America export F-15 before F-22 came out? Because at that time, no single country is even close to a military threat to US in its primary war zones and of course to its homeland. They cared to make the money and even exporting it and allowing F-15 intel and data to leak to Russia or China or whoever still doesn't allow them to attack USA or affect its war zones.

UCAVs that are sensitive are near this level. I doubt China would export GJ-11 until after its replacement level and superior system is in service.

Also money ... money! ... MONEY! Can customers afford? If not, then China would rather buy more for itself or why risk it and why give any away. 5th gens are much more expensive... UCAVs maybe but 5th gen for oil rich countries I can see since even ICBMs and in some cases nuclear warheads (although kept and use controlled by China) was at least negotiated. China did sell a few countries ballistic missiles (at least MRBM type) and at least one nation was able to negotiate to buy a few or single nuclear warhead. Although these may be rumors (the warhead purchase not missiles).

Pakistan should not look to be buying 5th gen fighters before first industrializing more and improving its economic and social development fronts. These are far more important. Indian threats can be kept at bay with strong conventional forces and a nuclear force at its back. You don't need 5th gens to have a strong conventional force. These days it is clear that 5th gens (even for China) is incredibly expensive and their costs are very difficult to control even when you have economies of scale like with F-35 procurement levels across many airforces.

India buying F-35 would take some time, same as buying Su-57 and possibly even longer if buying Su-57. AMCA is a decade at least away from initial production for service. Pakistan is probably weighing its options between Chinese dedicated export 5th gen which won't be available for a while or Turkish program. See how those options go while keeping an eye on Indian 5th gen procurement.

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## The Eagle

It will be really disheartening to delete such time spent long posts being off-topic. Stick to the discussion at hand. If necessary, either continue in relevant threat or create one with a detailed OP.

Regards,

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## iLION12345_1

PakAlp said:


> 50 Jf17 block 3s will be inducted soon. Why would Pakistan only buy 25J10CEs? There will be order for more Jets. I am guessing 50 more. So our total numbers will be 400 Jets. Mirages will be in storage just incase of war. After this Pakistan will concentrate on a 5th generation Jet. If Pakistan wants more than 400 jets then the economy needs to be improved.
> Everything is speculative.


it’s not helpful to speculate without sources or an explanation/logic to go along with the speculation.
We have 30 JF-17 block 3s on order at the moment, not 50, and they will not be inducted “soon” if only 10 have been built. It will take plenty of time. There will most definitely be follow up orders though.

There’s no official confirmation we have 25 J10Cs on order either, and the reason we may buy just 25 is very simple, because we don’t have money, again, it’s very likely we’ll buy more than 25, but why speculate about something before it’s confirmation? That’s not helpful to discussion.

What source or logic is there behind having 400 jets? None. We could have more, we could have less. So again, not a good assumption, unless you’re willing to back it up. Do we need 400 jets? Do we need more? Do we need less? It all really depends on the decisions IAF makes, it’s not a concrete number.

Mirages will not remain in storage for long once retired, they’ll be used for spares. Mirages will not be retired anytime soon either, at least not all of them, the ROSE mirages will continue to serve well into this decade considering there are still some some roles only they can perform (SOWs and High-volume bombing). JF-17s can do most of their roles, especially once Ra’ad is inducted on them, but definitely not all of them and not with the same range and payload.

Pakistan concentrating on a 5th Gen is inevitable, but we’re still quite a few years off that.

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## hoopoe

how many sqn’s are operative with PAF?

will more capable ac like jf-17 and j-10ce over f-7pg and mirages reduce the no. of sqn’s as these get replaced?


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## Rafi

CH-7 looks very likely now. Let's hopefully see a deal getting signed.

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## Tipu7

Rafi said:


> CH-7 looks very likely now. Let's hopefully see a deal getting signed.


We have habit of making 'stealth deals'.

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## Scorpiooo

Rafi said:


> CH-7 looks very likely now. Let's hopefully see a deal getting signed.


Why is ch7 ? PAF is very towards Turkish drone



Tipu7 said:


> We have habit of making 'stealth deals'.


Do you really potential in this deal

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## SQ8

hoopoe said:


> how many sqn’s are operative with PAF?
> 
> will more capable ac like jf-17 and j-10ce over f-7pg and mirages reduce the no. of sqn’s as these get replaced?


Please read through a thread - these answers are always available. You can also use the search function on the top mid right side


----------



## Readerdefence

leviathan said:


> no, buy why fire a 145km+ misslle from a 120km radar?


Hi is it possible for AWACS to guide these missiles radar range ?
thank you


----------



## Dazzler

Aesas of Blk 3 and j10c are both GaN based aesas. Lab14 is churning out GaN aesas for PLA, PLAN, and now for PAF too. GaN is confirmed.
J10c shares tech directly from the j20. I wish I could speak.
@SQ8 should know more I presume.

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## SQ8

Dazzler said:


> Aesas of Blk 3 and j10c are both GaN based aesas. Lab14 is churning out GaN aesas for PLA, PLAN, and now for PAF too. GaN is confirmed.
> *J10c shares tech directly from the j20*. I wish I could speak.
> @SQ8 should know more I presume.


Not as such - but second that and some customization for the PAF includes interoperability with local DL.

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## Stealth

Hex0maniac said:


> Right now PAF has most diverse combat fleet.
> J-10C
> JF-17
> F-16
> F-7P
> F-7PG
> Mirage 3
> Mirage 5
> 
> Sure most of them are close to retire and replace, but I will cherish every moment of it.



Against:

J-10C / Rafale
JF-17 / Mig-29
F-16 / SU30
F-7P / Mig-21
F-7PG / Mig-21
Mirage 3 / Mirage 2000
Mirage 5 / Mirage 2000

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## MultaniGuy

waz said:


> It’s an opinion and please do not use such words for a respected member.
> I for example couldn’t give a damn about US arms sales and hope there will never be any again. Time and time again they have let Pakistan down.
> I’d be gobsmacked if we ever see an offensive weapons sale again to Pakistan. Their congress loves India, who hilariously gave them the middle finger over Russia.


I agree USA are backstabbers.

No more American military hardware ever again.

China all the way!

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## Bleek

Scorpiooo said:


> Why is ch7 ? PAF is very towards Turkish drone


We already buy drones from both suppliers 

What drone do the Turks have similar to the CH-7? 

China is way ahead in drone technology

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## nomi007

Both J-10C and J-20 are now fitted with domestic developed WS-10 engines for production

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## Dazzler

SQ8 said:


> Not as such - but second that and some customization for the PAF includes interoperability with local DL.


Custom made Emcon system is the biggest news. Aircraft that have this system:
F22
F35
F18E/F
J31/35
J-10C batch 3 onwards.
Rafale, Typhoon and NG have no such system to date.
Good luck detecting the J10c, IAF.

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## Bleek

Dazzler said:


> Custom made Emcon system is the biggest news. Aircraft that have this system:
> F22
> F35
> F18E/F
> J31/35
> J-10C batch 3 onwards.
> Rafale, Typhoon and NG have no such system to date.
> Good luck detecting the J10c, IAF.


J-20?


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Big_bud

Windjammer said:


> Must say at first I wasn't too keen on the J-10, being some Six feet longer and Two feet taller than the F-16, I thought it's bit large for a single engine, but for some reason in PAF colours it looks different even close to a EFT than anything else.
> Besides, in our culture, supporting Moustache is considered Manly.
> 
> View attachment 825927




I need a facepalm emoji with like button! 🤦‍♂️ mods please introduce one!


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## Bleek

Big_bud said:


> I need a facepalm emoji with like button! 🤦‍♂️ mods please introduce one!


And this 😐

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## Big_bud

MultaniGuy said:


> I agree USA are backstabbers.
> 
> No more American military hardware ever again.
> 
> China all the way!



Keep friends close, but work on self reliance. 

We shouldn't buy from USA but shouldn't also keep all eggs in 1 basket either. 

I think our leadership did well by joining Azm with TFX. We can have J31s/ J20s in future but its good to have an independent platform as well.

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## MultaniGuy

Big_bud said:


> Keep friends close, but work on self reliance.
> 
> We shouldn't buy from USA but shouldn't also keep all eggs in 1 basket either.
> 
> I think our leadership did well by joining Azm with TFX. We can have J31s/ J20s in future but its good to have an independent platform as well.


Yes we should try to be self-reliant.
Even North Korea has tested ICBMs.

Why have we not have done the same yet?


----------



## Stealth

Dazzler said:


> Custom made Emcon system is the biggest news. Aircraft that have this system:
> F22
> F35
> F18E/F
> J31/35
> J-10C batch 3 onwards.
> Rafale, Typhoon and NG have no such system to date.
> Good luck detecting the J10c, IAF.




PAF VS IAF fleet comparison

J-10C (25) - Rafale (36)
JF-17 (134) - Mig-29 (69)
F-16 (75) - SU30 (284)
F-7P/F-7PG (47) - Mig-21 (125)
Mirage 3 (60) - Jaguar (139)
Mirage 5 (69) - Mirage 2000 (51)

Total aircrafts combined of all three armed forces:
Pakistan: 1385
India: 1715

India has to face two fronts+. On the other side, PAF is the largest air force in the Islamic world in terms of fighter jets, more diverse as compared to its adversary’, maintaining a highly complex fleet with the combination of western and Chinese tech including Russian engines, loaded with state-of-art weapon systems either BVR — AIM120, PL15, AESA, Jamming pods to AWACS. Very few in the 1st world possess such a level of deterrence in air warfare.

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## dbc

Dazzler said:


> Custom made Emcon system is the biggest news. Aircraft that have this system:
> F22
> F35
> F18E/F
> J31/35
> J-10C batch 3 onwards.
> Rafale, Typhoon and NG have no such system to date.
> Good luck detecting the J10c, IAF.



I don't think you fully understand EMCON it's a mission profile not a device.

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## johncliu88

Last night, I scanned through some of the video clips on Youtube, some said that the actual J-10C for PAF will be 48, is this true?


----------



## Bleek

johncliu88 said:


> Last night, I scanned through some of the video clips on Youtube, some said that the actual J-10C for PAF will be 48, is this true?


No one knows, but it's likely the number will increase over the years to around 100

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## Vortex

dbc said:


> I don't think you fully understand EMCON it's a mission profile not a device.


Could you kindly explain to people like me what is EMCOM ?

Many thanks. 👍

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## Sayfullah

Dazzler said:


> Custom made Emcon system is the biggest news. Aircraft that have this system:
> F22
> F35
> F18E/F
> J31/35
> J-10C batch 3 onwards.
> Rafale, Typhoon and NG have no such system to date.
> Good luck detecting the J10c, IAF.


Will JF-17 get it?


----------



## dbc

Vortex said:


> Could you kindly explain to people like me what is EMCOM ?
> 
> Many thanks. 👍











USAF's KC-10 pilots conduct Emissions Control 3 mission


The US Air Force's (USAF) student pilots from the 305th Operation Group's KC-10 Flying Training Unit have carried out an Emissions Control 3 (EMCON III) large-formation operation at an undisclosed location.




www.airforce-technology.com

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## tphuang

Vortex said:


> Could you kindly explain to people like me what is EMCOM ?
> 
> Many thanks. 👍


EMCON - emission control.

part of being stealthy is keeping your electronic emissions from getting picked up. All the stealth aircraft should have some level of this.

You can also argue that any radar/EW suite with LPI properties and utilizing LPI form of communication have emission control.

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## SQ8

dbc said:


> I don't think you fully understand EMCON it's a mission profile not a device.


Might be a faux pax. The aircraft has a tailored EW suite optimized for the threats it faced

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## dbc

tphuang said:


> You can also argue that any radar/EW suite with LPI properties and utilizing LPI form of communication have emission control.



Nope, energy is still radiated LPI only reduces the probability of intercept. But if you are up against an antenna farm then LPI will not help you avoid detection..

The highest level of emission control requires zero emissions in the electro magnetic spectrum.



SQ8 said:


> Might be a faux pax. The aircraft has a tailored EW suite optimized for the threats it faced


then my apologies I am the one who misunderstood @Dazzler. 
By aircraft you mean J10? I haven't examined the J10 closely enough. do you know the location of the passive arrays?


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## SQ8

dbc said:


> Nope, energy is still radiated LPI only reduces the probability of intercept. But if you are up against an antenna farm then LPI will not help you avoid detection..
> 
> The highest level of emission control requires zero emissions in the electro magnetic spectrum.
> 
> 
> then my apologies I am the one who misunderstood @Dazzler.
> By aircraft you mean J10? I haven't examined the J10 closely enough. do you know the *location of the passive arrays*?


I do not. Most of the arrays, sub systems come from the J-20. But the Hud comes from the JF-17 block-3. 
So much like the LM statement that the F-16V has F-35 tech.. the J-10C uses the best available from Chinese manufacturers.

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## Bossman

Stealth said:


> PAF VS IAF fleet comparison
> 
> J-10C (25) - Rafale (36)
> JF-17 (134) - Mig-29 (69)
> F-16 (75) - SU30 (284)
> F-7P/F-7PG (47) - Mig-21 (125)
> Mirage 3 (60) - Jaguar (139)
> Mirage 5 (69) - Mirage 2000 (51)
> 
> Total aircrafts combined of all three armed forces:
> Pakistan: 1385
> India: 1715
> 
> India has to face two fronts+. On the other side, PAF is the largest air force in the Islamic world in terms of fighter jets, more diverse as compared to its adversary’, maintaining a highly complex fleet with the combination of western and Chinese tech including Russian engines, loaded with state-of-art weapon systems either BVR — AIM120, PL15, AESA, Jamming pods to AWACS. Very few in the 1st world possess such a level of deterrence in air warfare.


It does not work like this. It’s never jet on jet

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## MastanKhan

dbc said:


> I don't think you fully understand EMCON it's a mission profile not a device.



Hi,

In lay person's term---level of threat---.

It was on my F22 DID game in the early 2000.

My wife threatened to divorce me if I played that game anymore---9/11 had happened---so along with my flight training CD---I smashed the 2 cd's to small pieces and deleted everything from the computer---oh well---it was time of fear.

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## dbc

SQ8 said:


> So much like the LM statement that the F-16V has F-35 tech



snake oil sales pitch.

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## siegecrossbow

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 826109



J-10B not J-10C. This one is carrying PL-12/PL-8.

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## SQ8

dbc said:


> snake oil sales pitch.


Not exactly - lessons from the F-35 development including the APG-81 were applied to the V. The APG-83 + ALQ-211 is a mean kit.

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## mshan44



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## dbc

SQ8 said:


> Not exactly - lessons from the F-35 development including the APG-81 were applied to the V. The APG-83 + ALQ-211 is a mean kit.



I have been told the F-16 Block 60 APG-80 is superior.

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## SQ8

dbc said:


> I have been told the F-16 Block 60 APG-80 is superior.


Cant be on all parameters so might be either overall power or otherwise. That block-60 is still a monster either way.
Anyway, the J-10C + PL-15 does outstick most platforms.

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## dbc

SQ8 said:


> Anyway, the J-10C + PL-15 does outstick most platforms.


Yes, but it would be nice to test one at China Lake. I suspect its a thirsty bird..


----------



## ahtan_china

It is said that it is a decorative painting of the 15th squadron of the Indian air force that will be put on the wall. There is nothing to say, waiting for the first victory of the Pakistani air force.

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## NA71

ahtan_china said:


> It is said that it is a decorative painting of the 15th squadron of the Indian air force that will be put on the wall. There is nothing to say, waiting for the first victory of the Pakistani air force.



The real painting would exactly be opposite .I.A.

The J-10c now in the hands of these pilots ....just a reminder:

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## Riz

importance of CFT

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## IceCold

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 824848


Wow! Absolutely stunning. Can I use the above photo as a DP cover?


----------



## The Terminator

Goritoes said:


> Wait, you mean no one knows for certain ? Hain


Yes China has strictly ordered PAF to not disclose the AESA Radars name 😜. If JF-17 has KLJ-7A AESA radar then just call J-10's KLJ-10A  . It would be convenient

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## Goritoes

The Terminator said:


> Yes China has strictly ordered PAF to not disclose the AESA Radars name 😜. If JF-17 has KLJ-7A AESA radar then just call J-10's KLJ-10A  . It would be convenient


As far I know these J-10's comes from PLAAF existing fleet, so maybe they were using some different variant of it ?


----------



## Deino

Goritoes said:


> As far I know these J-10's comes from PLAAF existing fleet, so maybe they were using some different variant of it ?




No they don‘t! If you look at the so far known construction numbers they are clearly from a separate batch.

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## Goritoes

Deino said:


> No they don‘t! If you look at the so far known construction numbers they are clearly from a separate batch.


Bro, I've been asking this question, no one has the Answer or just Trolling, Do you know which Radar PAF's J-10 uses ?


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## GumNaam

J10Cs should fly in the lead nowb during the fly past...send amreekans a message that their F16s, although very important to us, are no longer the only cutting edge aircraft available to Pakistan.

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## iLION12345_1

GumNaam said:


> J10Cs should fly in the lead nowb during the fly past...send amreekans a message that their F16s, although very important to us, are no longer the only cutting edge aircraft available to Pakistan.


The air chief has the lead the flypast, for that he needs to ride in a dual seater. There are no dual seat J-10Cs, so how can a J-10C lead the fly-past without the air chief flying it.


----------



## Deino

Goritoes said:


> Bro, I've been asking this question, no one has the Answer or just Trolling, Do you know which Radar PAF's J-10 uses ?




Sorry, I missed the "?" ... as such i read it as a stement and this is wrong!

Concerning the radar, actually no designation has been given even if often KLJ-10A is mentioned. However the original radar of the J-10A was the KLJ-3 ...

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## Goritoes

Deino said:


> Sorry, I missed the "?" ... as such i read it as a stement and this is wrong!
> 
> Concerning the radar, actually no designation has been given even if often KLJ-10A is mentioned. However the original radar of the J-10A was the KLJ-3 ...


Thank you


----------



## GumNaam

iLION12345_1 said:


> The air chief has the lead the flypast, for that he needs to ride in a dual seater. There are no dual seat J-10Cs, so how can a J-10C lead the fly-past without the air chief flying it.


that's easy, just put someone else in the J10C and say that it's the air chief!

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## Windjammer

IceCold said:


> Wow! Absolutely stunning. Can I use the above photo as a DP cover?


Yes why not but then others might confuse me with you and vice versa.


----------



## GumNaam

wonder why no wingtip missiles on any of the J10 variants? 🤔

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## IceCold

Windjammer said:


> Yes why not but then others might confuse me with you and vice versa.


Lol! no worries I just realized you are already using it as your DP.


----------



## Chak Bamu

ahtan_china said:


> It is said that it is a decorative painting of the 15th squadron of the Indian air force that will be put on the wall. There is nothing to say, waiting for the first victory of the Pakistani air force.
> 
> View attachment 826146


IIRC, SU-30MKI canards are fixed. In so far as authenticity is concerned, this drawing is a fail. Also, we'll see how well SU-30 performs against J-10CP, in due time.

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## siegecrossbow

Chak Bamu said:


> IIRC, SU-30MKI canards are fixed. In so far as authenticity is concerned, this drawing is a fail. Also, we'll see how well SU-30 performs against J-10CP, in due time.



The canards aren’t fixed but rather free floating, not driven by any motors but moving freely depending on the angle of attack.

That said, J-10 does not fear any flanker variant with inferior radar/avionics. Only flanker that could challenge the J-10C is the J-16. Su-35 with stronger PESA radar and thrust to weight than the MKI has been routinely trounced during the Golden Helmet competition. They’ve never even entered the finals.

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## maverick1977

Did indians comments on this thread, ya samph soongh gia


----------



## Enigma SIG

maverick1977 said:


> Did indians comments on this thread, ya samph soongh gia


J-10C soongh gia hai.

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## maverick1977

Enigma SIG said:


> J-10C soongh gia hai.



they should atleast do Raphael ka comparison or may be with raptor of the east ? kuch to bolo. chalo one sided statements day do keh raphael J10CP ko bhoon day ga...


----------



## Enigma SIG

maverick1977 said:


> they should atleast do Raphael ka comparison or may be with raptor of the east ? kuch to bolo. chalo one sided statements day do keh raphael J10CP ko bhoon day ga...


All AWOL. Just like Swift retort. Bhoonain ge, sirf apne helicopter ko

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## Lord Of Gondor

Chak Bamu said:


> IIRC, SU-30MKI canards are fixed.


Not fixed, controlled by the FBW system in flight, if I am not wrong





You can see from around 3 minutes

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## Windjammer



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## arjunk

Can someone repost that painting of a J-10 and Rafale dogfighting?


----------



## GriffinsRule

Stealth said:


> Against:
> 
> J-10C / Rafale
> JF-17 / Mig-29
> F-16 / SU30
> F-7P / Mig-21
> F-7PG / Mig-21
> Mirage 3 / Mirage 2000
> Mirage 5 / Mirage 2000


Left out the IAF Jags

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

ahtan_china said:


> It is said that it is a decorative painting of the 15th squadron of the Indian air force that will be put on the wall. There is nothing to say, waiting for the first victory of the Pakistani air force.
> 
> View attachment 826146


IAF loves to be taking beauty naps. It momemtarily wakes up only when its jets get shot down. Then again it goes back to slumber....

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## cssniper

arjunk said:


> Can someone repost that painting of a J-10 and Rafale dogfighting?








source:


https://weibo.com/7097016651/LgnPPzdqL



https://weibo.com/7097016651/Ljfbhw0RM (larger version)

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.,




.,.,.,.,,.,.,

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## Development C&P

arjunk said:


> Can someone repost that painting of a J-10 and Rafale dogfighting?





Development C&P said:


> View attachment 824343
> 
> In order to celebrate the J10C of Pakistan finally served,
> Special disclosure of this original size version of this painting~
> 
> 
> Uncompressed original picture：（Size：7680x4320, 9.04MB）
> 
> 
> https://wx4.sinaimg.cn/large/007Kimevgy1h060axhnd6j35xc3c01l5.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Art by. 奇圆JeffHoly
> 
> 
> 
> https://weibo.com/7097016651/Ljfbhw0RM?refer_flag=1001030103_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://weibo.com/2149981442?refer_flag=1001030103_


----------



## Engima Chaudhry

iLION12345_1 said:


> The air chief has the lead the flypast, for that he needs to ride in a dual seater. There are no dual seat J-10Cs, so how can a J-10C lead the fly-past without the air chief flying it.


It has happened before. In the first fly past of f16s in 1982 or 83 , the then acm flew the lead single seat f 16, and nearly crashed it. He was not familiar with fly by wire sticks sensitivity .

Even


siegecrossbow said:


> The canards aren’t fixed but rather free floating, not driven by any motors but moving freely depending on the angle of attack.
> 
> That said, J-10 does not fear any flanker variant with inferior radar/avionics. Only flanker that could challenge the J-10C is the J-16. Su-35 with stronger PESA radar and thrust to weight than the MKI has been routinely trounced during the Golden Helmet competition. They’ve never even entered the finals.


 The j 16 lost to j10c in golded helmet contest. For 3 consecutive years.

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## Raider 21

Engima Chaudhry said:


> It has happened before. In the first fly past of f16s in 1982 or 83 , the then acm flew the lead single seat f 16, and nearly crashed it. He was not familiar with fly by wire sticks sensitivity .
> 
> Even
> 
> The j 16 lost to j10c in golded helmet contest. For 3 consecutive years.


It was 1983, and he flew in the two seater

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## Engima Chaudhry

Raider 21 said:


> It was 1983, and he flew in the two seater


Ok. Stand corrected. I guessed , it might be a single seater if controls were with acm 
Regards

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Super Falcon




----------



## The Eagle

cssniper said:


> View attachment 826321
> 
> 
> source:
> 
> 
> https://weibo.com/7097016651/LgnPPzdqL
> 
> 
> 
> https://weibo.com/7097016651/Ljfbhw0RM (larger version)



Enter the dragon

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## SQ8

The Eagle said:


> Enter the dragon
> View attachment 826387


Modern WVR combat means that one or the other aircraft will be dead within 10 seconds. 
Both the Rafale and J-10 carry fairly agile missiles so its best for the J-10 to hit the Rafale 150km+ out:

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## Signalian

What percentage is effected due to protruding Aerial refuelling probe on J-10s RCS

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## jaybird

Signalian said:


> What percentage is effected due to protruding Aerial refuelling probe on J-10s RCS



I will imagine the protruding refuelling probe affect on RCS will be less than any of the missiles, bombs and drop tanks it carry on it's wings comparing the size and shapes of them. Same with drag penalty. 

Both the J-10C and Rafale choose non retractable refueling probe design, but yet both supposedly still have one of the smallest RCS among 4th and 4.5G fighters anyway. Besides, the refuelling probe is easily removable if certain operation required max low on rcs. And considering the situation of how Pakistan will use the J-10C, refuelling probe might not even be necessary most of the time.

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## ahtan_china

J-10 first flight

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## The Eagle

SQ8 said:


> Modern WVR combat means that one or the other aircraft will be dead within 10 seconds.
> Both the Rafale and J-10 carry fairly agile missiles so its best for the J-10 to hit the Rafale 150km+ out:



Then this, Enter the Dragon

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## cssniper

Today is the 24th anniversary of J-10's maiden flight.
Cheers my friends!
Let's also pay tribute to the father of J-10, Song wen cong. 
https://video.weibo.com/show?fid=1034:4617655047618742

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## shofotolavski



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## The Terminator

Signalian said:


> Been thinking to start topic on DHA, however airforce and navy also get their share of housing societies.


 na na na. Asa na krna wrna qoum k sapoot r bahadur jawan bohat ghusa r naraz hjyngy. 
 

PDF k think tank: Consultant ho k bhi asay anaab shnaab Kesy bol lety. Toba Toba.


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## The Terminator

GumNaam said:


> that's easy, just put someone else in the J10C and say that it's the air chief!


Lol sometimes they directly connect the parade ground loudspeakers to the pilot's comms mic. So someone would have to mimic as PAF chief in voice too 😜😜😜



Goritoes said:


> Bro, I've been asking this question, no one has the Answer or just Trolling, Do you know which Radar PAF's J-10 uses ?


Bro even the Chinese members don't know it's name. So just leave this question or as I said for convenience just say it KLJ-10A 😜 or whatever you like. Barhi electronic laaltain!

Yup just as we have 2 Mastan Khans both of their DP and name looks the same. Both Start from M


Windjammer said:


> Yes why not but then others might confuse me with you and vice versa.

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## The Terminator

Signalian said:


> What percentage is effected due to protruding Aerial refuelling probe on J-10s RCS


Less than protruding fuel tanks and missiles 😜

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## Windjammer



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## Asimzranger

will their be j10C duel cockpits


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## python-000

cssniper said:


> Today is the 24th anniversary of J-10's maiden flight.
> Cheers my friends!
> Let's also pay tribute to the father of J-10, Song wen cong.
> https://video.weibo.com/show?fid=1034:4617655047618742
> View attachment 826468


These 2 great persons looks like China & Pakistan Best Friends Forever...

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## ahtan_china

J-10 first flight /1998.3.23

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## Windjammer



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## sheik

ahtan_china said:


> J-10 first flight
> View attachment 826448



Now I suspect that PAF invested in the J-10 project. Otherwise why was the date March 23 chosen for J-10's maiden flight?

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## siegecrossbow

In case anyone is still skeptical about WS-10’s reliability/availability. A J-16, which uses WS-10, just completed 20 hours of continuous flight within a one day period, during which it performed air to surface strikes.



https://m.weibo.cn/status/LkWA8bzeE?jumpfrom=weibocom

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## Windjammer



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## GumNaam

The Terminator said:


> Lol sometimes they directly connect the parade ground loudspeakers to the pilot's comms mic. So someone would have to mimic as PAF chief in voice too 😜😜😜
> 
> 
> Bro even the Chinese members don't know it's name. So just leave this question or as I said for convenience just say it KLJ-10A 😜 or whatever you like. Barhi electronic laaltain!
> 
> Yup just as we have 2 Mastan Khans both of their DP and name looks the same. Both Start from M


Imagine if the ACM did a low flyby in the J10C by the indian embassy doing this...

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## ZY-CN-CA

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 826562


why F16 in front of J10， it is means F16 is better then J10 or is some air etiquette?


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## PakFactor

ZY-CN-CA said:


> why F16 in front of J10， it is means F16 is better then J10 or is some air etiquette?



The Air Chief was in the F-16 (I think it was a dual seater).

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## The Terminator

ZY-CN-CA said:


> why F16 in front of J10， it is means F16 is better then J10 or is some air etiquette?


F-16 was 2 seater variant. It has nothing to do with which one is better. It's been tradition in PAF that Air Chief himself leads the formation, because of some historic backgrounds in actual war where the Air Chief himself flew over the Frontlines mission at start of the conflict. So most probably the Air Chief had flown F-16s so he was there leading the formation in 2 seater F-16. More of a SOP and Chain of command issue, it would break the protocol. A junior officer can't lead the formation flying J-10 C as I told earlier.
Same as the President arrives at last because he is the most senior ranking Govt official and the official statement protocol dictates so

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## ZY-CN-CA

shofotolavski said:


> View attachment 826470
> View attachment 826471


cool双坐的是 J10S吗


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## The Terminator

ZY-CN-CA said:


> why F16 in front of J10， it is means F16 is better then J10 or is some air etiquette?









That's the only reason! À 4 star officer






His name is written on this fighter. And it's a dual seater.

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## Readerdefence

siegecrossbow said:


> In case anyone is still skeptical about WS-10’s reliability/availability. A J-16, which uses WS-10, just completed 20 hours of continuous flight within a one day period, during which it performed air to surface strikes.
> 
> 
> 
> https://m.weibo.cn/status/LkWA8bzeE?jumpfrom=weibocom


Hi siegecrossbow 
so where it flew for all these long 20 hours (how many miles it can be ) I mean went out of the country or like running wild in between the country including strikes 
another thing mate continuous is like all the time in air or comin back to base refuel or rearm and fly back again 
if possible to answer 
thank you


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## siegecrossbow

Readerdefence said:


> Hi siegecrossbow
> so where it flew for all these long 20 hours (how many miles it can be ) I mean went out of the country or like running wild in between the country including strikes
> another thing mate continuous is like all the time in air or comin back to base refuel or rearm and fly back again
> if possible to answer
> thank you



J-16 has internal refueling probe, so it is probably done with mid-air refueling. I suspect it was similar to the stunt they pulled with Su-30MKK over SCS back in 2020.

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## PakShaheen79

Asimzranger said:


> will their be j10C duel cockpits


That's not sure but what's certain is that there will be a J-10D with WS-10B3 engine. (Don't ask what's specifications of this engine, I only know this much from CMA blog.)

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## Sinnerman108

jaybird said:


> I will imagine the protruding refuelling probe affect on RCS will be less than any of the missiles, bombs and drop tanks it carry on it's wings comparing the size and shapes of them. Same with drag penalty.
> 
> Both the J-10C and Rafale choose non retractable refueling probe design, but yet both supposedly still have one of the smallest RCS among 4th and 4.5G fighters anyway. Besides, the refuelling probe is easily removable if certain operation required max low on rcs. And considering the situation of how Pakistan will use the J-10C, refuelling probe might not even be necessary most of the time.



The drag or the RCS drawback is much small compared to 

reliability and removing refueling probe control mechanism.

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## TopGun786

https://fb.watch/bX61m9HxqI/

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## HRK

ZY-CN-CA said:


> why F16 in front of J10， it is means F16 is better then J10 or is some air etiquette?


In dual Seat F-16 ACM was leading the flypast, now J-10 were also leading along with F-16

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## Ali_Baba

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 826360



A large high resolution version of that picture would make for a fantastic wallpaper!

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## jaybird

Readerdefence said:


> Hi siegecrossbow
> so where it flew for all these long 20 hours (how many miles it can be ) I mean went out of the country or like running wild in between the country including strikes
> another thing mate continuous is like all the time in air or comin back to base refuel or rearm and fly back again
> if possible to answer
> thank you


Don't listen to siegecrossbow. The J-16 were not going to the same old stinky SCS!

With optimum cruising speed of fighter jets at Mach 0.9 equal to around 1,100 km per hour. If J-16 continuously flying for 20 hours would have cover more than enough distance to make it to the Andaman sea or Nicobar islands and dropping tea bags for Abhinandan and his friends there. 😆

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## Bleek

jaybird said:


> Don't listen to siegecrossbow. The J-16 were not going to the same old stinky SCS!
> 
> With optimum cruising speed of fighter jets at Mach 0.9 equal to around 1,100 km per hour. If J-16 continuously flying for 20 hours would have cover more than enough distance to make it to the Andaman sea or Nicobar islands and dropping tea bags for Abhinandan and his friends there. 😆


What if it was flying around in circles in roughly the same area? 

Doesn't mean it was travelling at a constant speed in a single direction

Siegecrossbow is one of the more credible and reliable members here

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## jaybird

Bleek said:


> What if it was flying around in circles in roughly the same area?
> 
> Doesn't mean it was travelling at a constant speed in a single direction
> 
> Siegecrossbow is one of the more credible and reliable members here


I was joking bro. Of course J-16 weren't going to Andaman sea.

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## Engima Chaudhry

PakShaheen79 said:


> That's not sure but what's certain is that there will be a J-10D with WS-10B3 engine. (Don't ask what's specifications of this engine, I only know this much from CMA blog.)





PakShaheen79 said:


> That's not sure but what's certain is that there will be a J-10D with WS-10B3 engine. (Don't ask what's specifications of this engine, I only know this much from CMA blog.)


Dual seater j10 is called j10s , probably. (Or someother alphabet.) 
Probably the Chinese have a different style of nameing the aircrafts.


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## siegecrossbow

Engima Chaudhry said:


> Dual seater j10 is called j10s , probably. (Or someother alphabet.)
> Probably the Chinese have a different style of nameing the aircrafts.



S stands for "Shuang Zuo", which is twinseater in Chinese.

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## kursed

J10 will be one of the fastest operationalized systems within PAF history.

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## FuturePAF

PakShaheen79 said:


> That's not sure but what's certain is that there will be a J-10D with WS-10B3 engine. (Don't ask what's specifications of this engine, I only know this much from CMA blog.)


Hopefully they also integrate the J-20/J-31 style EOTS, to free up a pylon and enhance the targeting capabilities. L-Band radars in the wings and tail similar to the Su-57 could also be very necessary to detect stealth fighters if the plane gets more power to support it. 

This is the time to think of improving the J-10C design, as the first PAF J-10s are being inducted so that plane can have an enhancement plan in place to stay comparative for decades to come.


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## Windjammer

Does any one remembers Sheikh Rashid saying that 25 J-10s will participate in the parade.... Well he was both right and wrong at the same time. Right in the sense that J-10s did participate, however what he got confused with was the overall number of different jets that will participate in the flypast. The image below shows all the formations that took part however add to this the three Mirages which followed the lead formation and also did a linear bomb burst, you have the figure of 25 jets.

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## Bossman

ZY-CN-CA said:


> why F16 in front of J10， it is means F16 is better then J10 or is some air etiquette?


 No because J10 is not yet operational

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## Maarkhoor

Bossman said:


> No because J10 is not yet operational


Air chief is leading and have to be dual seat jet, currently F-16 Block 52 have dual seats So air chief is leading and J-10 is escorting the air chief.
Nothing to do with J-10 is operational or not.

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## ghazi52

What a Beauty ....

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## bnvtony

Hi, I saw this Pak J10C in chinese media,just wonder are there some refueling planes in Pakistan???? do you guys know if this J10c have AESA radar and have power to against the indian rafael fighter bought from France??? and I also thinks what you guys want, the capacity of carrying nuclear missile using J10C ,right???haha

and if someone doesnt know yet .here is good news: the engine in J10C is a chinese-made product ,which can means a lot ,such as unlimited .......

I just think we Chinese are good at producing plane
but Pakistan military are good at eliminating indian invader than chinese army....


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## Deltadart

What are the prospects of PAF acquiring J10S for training or as special mission planes?


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## White privilege

Would we be lucky to get wind of more _Dragons _arriving or they would just be quietly delivered??

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## Scorpiooo

Bossman said:


> No because J10 is not yet operational


Its not dual seater, so how air chief will lead

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

,.,.






PAF Chengdu J-10CE ....... "اثدر شعلہ فشاں".

Credit



- Syed Zohaib Zaidi Photography

.,

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## ghazi52

,




.;'

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## MastanKhan

Windjammer said:


> Does any one remembers Sheikh Rashid saying that 25 J-10s will participate in the parade.... Well he was both right and wrong at the same time. Right in the sense that J-10s did participate, however what he got confused with was the overall number of different jets that will participate in the flypast. The image below shows all the formations that took part however add to this the three Mirages which followed the lead formation and also did a linear bomb burst, you have the figure of 25 jets.
> 
> View attachment 826824


Hi,

The Sheikh was not confused. The news about the J10's was the breaking news, about 25 units in air was sensation


White privilege said:


> Would we be lucky to get wind of more _Dragons _arriving or they would just be quietly delivered??


Hi,

They will just be quietly delivered--- no fanfare--- just another batch of 10 aircraft cominh in.

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## Trailer23

Trailer23 said:


> A beautiful model of a J-10C has replaced the JF-17 outside Kamra.





White privilege said:


> *JF-17 can't really be replaced at Kamra*.Even if no operational squadron is stationed there, Kamra would likely remain the manufacture and maintenance hub of Thunder.

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## The Eagle

Trailer23 said:


> View attachment 827006​



At first look, there's something different about this model and resemble the J-10 but not all of it. YouTubers.... Here you go....

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## Dreamer.

Windjammer said:


> Does any one remembers Sheikh Rashid saying that 25 J-10s will participate in the parade.... Well he was both right and wrong at the same time. Right in the sense that J-10s did participate, however what he got confused with was the overall number of different jets that will participate in the flypast. The image below shows all the formations that took part however add to this the three Mirages which followed the lead formation and also did a linear bomb burst, you have the figure of 25 jets.
> 
> View attachment 826824


Actually there were 29 fighter aircraft in the fly past. So the figure of 25 wasn't correct that way either.

Missing form this picture collection are not only the 3 mirages that followed the lead formation but also 4 of the F-7's since total 8 took part, 4 F-7P & 4 F-7PG.

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## Trailer23

The Eagle said:


> At first look, there's something different about this model and resemble the J-10 but not all of it. YouTubers.... Here you go....


I won't dig too much into it. Clearly its local made and the ones who did produce it, didn't do that great of a job.

Material looks similar to the F-16 outside Falcon Complex Faisal (Karachi).

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## JamD

Trailer23 said:


> Material looks similar to the F-16 outside Falcon Complex Faisal (Karachi).


I lived for over 2 decades there. That f16 had a flat plastic panel in place of a cockpit at one point lol.

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## Trailer23

JamD said:


> I lived for over 2 decades there. That f16 had a flat plastic panel in place of a cockpit at one point lol.


You lived there for a couple of decades. Well, I (just) visited it a couple of times. I think the last time I went through those gates was back in 2010 - so its been a while.

Lord knows if that damn jets even there today.

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## MastanKhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In lay person's term---level of threat---.
> 
> It was on my F22 DID game in the early 2000.
> 
> My wife threatened to divorce me if I played that game anymore---9/11 had happened---so along with my flight training CD---I smashed the 2 cd's to small pieces and deleted everything from the computer---oh well---it was time of fear.




Hi,

What I forgot to write was that I was on that video game for about 4-5 hours a day and my wife hated the music.

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## The Terminator

bnvtony said:


> Hi, I saw this Pak J10C in chinese media,just wonder are there some refueling planes in Pakistan???? do you guys know if this J10c have AESA radar and have power to against the indian rafael fighter bought from France??? and I also thinks what you guys want, the capacity of carrying nuclear missile using J10C ,right???haha
> 
> and if someone doesnt know yet .here is good news: the engine in J10C is a chinese-made product ,which can means a lot ,such as unlimited .......
> 
> I just think we Chinese are good at producing plane
> but Pakistan military are good at eliminating indian invader than chinese army....


Yes we have some dual purpose il-78 transport/refueler planes. J-10C carries an undeclared AESA radar. Whose name is mystery even in China. But they have AESA for sure. Our under serial production JF-17 Block-3 also have Chinese KLJ-7A AESA Radars. Currently we have Mirage3/5 rose upgraded as dedicated ground attack and Nuclear delivery (RAAD ALCM) capable fighters. JF-17 have issue of ground clearance if it would try to carry our nuclear capable RAAD Cruise Missile. So yeah J-10C can surely be replace old Mirages in stand off Nuclear delivery roles. 

Rafale and J-10C are really comparable 4++ Gen fighter. But there's a whole lot more like a complete ecosystem works along with fighters to a achieve a mutual goal. Indian fighters were bigger and better on paper in Feb-19 conflict but our superior EW planes blinded and deafened them that day. They failed to even communicate with each other so whole of their air force was practically rendered useless and ineffective that day. Let the time come for Rafale and J-10C to face each other.

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## Windjammer

The Game Changer.

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## Windjammer



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## ahtan_china

J-10 photo/1990s

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## Defencelover1997

Bro.stop this.paf doesn’t has pl-15.paf has pl-15e.just like paf has sd-10,not original pl-12.

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## Defencelover1997

Can anyone plz tell me what is the exact range of J-10C' s aesa radar?


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## Rafi

Defencelover1997 said:


> Bro.stop this.paf doesn’t has pl-15.paf has pl-15e.just like paf has sd-10,not original pl-12.



Pakistan has both, lol how do like them apples.

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## Defencelover1997

Rafi said:


> Pakistan has both, lol how do like them apples.


than why Pakistan bought sd-10 instead of pl-12?

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## Rafi

Defencelover1997 said:


> than why Pakistan bought sd-10 instead of pl-12?



Also both,.......nuff said 😆

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## maverick1977

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.
> View attachment 826996
> 
> 
> 
> PAF Chengdu J-10CE ....... "اثدر شعلہ فشاں".
> 
> Credit
> 
> 
> 
> - Syed Zohaib Zaidi Photography
> 
> .,



The Lion's mane (Spine) on J10C looks beautiful... what a beast.

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## jaybird

Defencelover1997 said:


> Can anyone plz tell me what is the exact range of J-10C' s aesa radar?


If no one can tell you even the official name of the AESA radar J-10C is equipped right now, what make you think anyone here will know the "exact" range of it? 😅

But is safe to say the radar is at least 200 km plus detection range against fighter jet size target if you considered it's bigger and more powerful than the known KLJ-7A AESA radar.

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## MastanKhan

jaybird said:


> If no one can tell you even the official name of the AESA radar J-10C is equipped right now, what make you think anyone here will know the "exact" range of it? 😅
> 
> But is safe to say the radar is at least 200 km plus detection range against fighter jet size target if you considered it's bigger and more powerful than the known KJ-7A AESA radar.hi




Hi,

It is of least concern for the Paf that people on this forum know about the range of the radar, because as an average Joe, most would be clueless to what it means in true sense.

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## Big_bud

I came across this youtuber's video and he raised some quite interesting points regarding microchip manufacturing ability of Russia vs US & then China vs Russia for military use. I think its a really good analysis that he made and probably the reason why IAF is not so confident despite having massive sized, twin engined SU 30 MKIs and had to run and buy Rafales. We all saw what happened at 27th Feb!

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*PAF J-10C The Lethal Protector*




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2217777541707226

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## Engima Chaudhry

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 827217


I wonder sometimes, f16 wings have bigger forward wing flaps, also eurofighter. But j10 and the IAI lavi have shorter wing flaps(?) At the front edge of the main wing. J10s start only where the main wing straightens after the initial dip. 
Is the design so as to not interefer with the efficency of the canards. ( correction eurofighter's forward wing slats too start( on the main wing) where the canards end. 
Is it so as to prevent vortoxes interference with airflow from canards.
2ndly, the flaps seem quite small as compared to a mirage. Reason?


----------



## SQ8

Rafi said:


> Also both,.......nuff said 😆


There was an emphasis when PAF “Horse’s mouth” whey talk of SD-10.. its called SD-10B and its performance is emphatically equated to AIM-120C.

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## siegecrossbow

SQ8 said:


> There was an emphasis when PAF “Horse’s mouth” whey talk of SD-10.. its called SD-10B and its performance is emphatically equated to AIM-120C.



Which variant of 120C? C5 or C7?


----------



## SQ8

siegecrossbow said:


> Which variant of 120C? C5 or C7?


PAF operates C5.. but nothing that specific.

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## Gripen9

JamD said:


> I lived for over 2 decades there. That f16 had a flat plastic panel in place of a cockpit at one point lol.


Hey so did I. Street # 3.
We were/are one of the original inhabitants since 1997.

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## siegecrossbow



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## Gripen9

Big_bud said:


> I came across this youtuber's video and he raised some quite interesting points regarding microchip manufacturing ability of Russia vs US & then China vs Russia for military use. I think its a really good analysis that he made and probably the reason why IAF is not so confident despite having massive sized, twin engined SU 30 MKIs and had to run and buy Rafales. We all saw what happened at 27th Feb!


If they were not confident, why did IAF acquire 270 of them? Bad planning if that is the case. They would have figured out all the shortcomings within the IOC timings and should have either cut the order or made appropriate updates.


----------



## Big_bud

Gripen9 said:


> If they were not confident, why did IAF acquire 270 of them? Bad planning if that is the case. They would have figured out all the shortcomings within the IOC timings and should have either cut the order or made appropriate updates.



We were in US camp at that time. They had no other option but to go with Russia if they wanted "made in India" or acquisition in high numbers at an affordable price. They wouldn't have afforded western jets in large numbers back then, Indian economy in 2000s was only 468 Billion USD. They gained a lot during .com boom & IT (call centre 🤭) revolution. Pakistan missed it due to being busy with Afghanistan and terrorism proxies supported by India, USA and Mossad.

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## Bin Laden

Big_bud said:


> I came across this youtuber's video and he raised some quite interesting points regarding microchip manufacturing ability of Russia vs US & then China vs Russia for military use. I think its a really good analysis that he made and probably the reason why IAF is not so confident despite having massive sized, twin engined SU 30 MKIs and had to run and buy Rafales. We all saw what happened at 27th Feb!



Russia's Mikron fab can only produce up to 65nm.
Meanwhile.....
China's SMIC is mass producing 14/12nm (N+1 node(~8nm) in limited production) and only thing holding them back from 7/5/4/3nm is deined access from EUV lithography equipment which only one company in the world produces that is Deutch ASML.
But china is working on its own EUV machine SMEE is a firm that's is working on such machines and currently have tech to manufacturer 28nm if they keep improving they might not even need ASML.

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## chinasun




----------



## Gripen9

Big_bud said:


> We were in US camp at that time. They had no other option but to go with Russia if they wanted "made in India" or acquisition in high numbers at an affordable price. They wouldn't have afforded western jets in large numbers back then, Indian economy in 2000s was only 468 Billion USD. They gained a lot during .com boom & IT (call centre 🤭) revolution. Pakistan missed it due to being busy with Afghanistan and terrorism proxies supported by India, USA and Mossad.


You are right!
Mid 90s and US military hardware was not an option while Rafale/Typhoon were still in their infancy so IAF’s logical choice was Russian weapons.

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## AeroEngineer

Bin Laden said:


> Russia's Mikron fab can only produce up to 65nm.
> Meanwhile.....
> China's SMIC is mass producing 14/12nm (N+1 node(~8nm) in limited production) and only thing holding them back from 7/5/4/3nm is deined access from EUV lithography equipment which only one company in the world produces that is Deutch ASML.
> But china is working on its own EUV machine SMEE is a firm that's is working on such machines and currently have tech to manufacturer 28nm if they keep improving they might not even need ASML.


By the time China will reach there, ASML has further tricks up their sleeve like NA EUV. Plus it’s not just the EUV machine, there are other collaborators involved like masking chemicals from Germany. They would like to keep China a generation behind in this technology.


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## Chak Bamu

AeroEngineer said:


> By the time China will reach there, ASML has further tricks up their sleeve like NA EUV. Plus it’s not just the EUV machine, there are other collaborators involved like masking chemicals from Germany. They would like to keep China a generation behind in this technology.


At the risk of extending the OT, I would like to point out that just as China has caught up in jet engine technology, the chips industry would be no different. Also, the absolute scale of further miniaturization would matter less than strategic employment of assets. So, even if China stays a generation behind, Chinese would still be able to cover the gap. It not likely to be a deciding factor in the medium-long term.



ahtan_china said:


> J-10 photo/1990s
> View attachment 827247


Notice the DSI on J-10. I doubt if this is from 90s.

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## Signalian

The Terminator said:


> na na na. Asa na krna wrna qoum k sapoot r bahadur jawan bohat ghusa r naraz hjyngy.
> 
> 
> PDF k think tank: Consultant ho k bhi asay anaab shnaab Kesy bol lety. Toba Toba.


We should be glad that J-10 acquisition didnt start rumors of kick backs unlike Rafale across the border.

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## jaybird

Chak Bamu said:


> At the risk of extending the OT, I would like to point out that just as China has caught up in jet engine technology, the chips industry would be no different. Also, the absolute scale of further miniaturization would matter less than strategic employment of assets. So, even if China stays a generation behind, Chinese would still be able to cover the gap. It not likely to be a deciding factor in the medium-long term.
> 
> 
> Notice the DSI on J-10. I doubt if this is from 90s.



The picture was taken when Li Peng (Guy on the left)Premier of the People's Republic of China from 1987 to 1998 visiting CAC in 1991. These pics were released during Chengfei commemorates the 10th anniversary of the first flight of the J-10.

You can tell these pics are very old because Li Peng still look quite young at the time. And DSI concept is not new.

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## Dazzler

siegecrossbow said:


>


That HUD is 💕


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## White privilege

Signalian said:


> We should be glad that J-10 acquisition didnt start rumors of kick backs unlike Rafale across the border.


Such rumors have little sway in Pakistan since we have practically _outsourced defense and related acquisitions_ to the military.


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## Chak Bamu

jaybird said:


> The picture was taken when Li Peng (Guy on the left)Premier of the People's Republic of China from 1987 to 1998 visiting CAC in 1991. These pics were released during Chengfei commemorates the 10th anniversary of the first flight of the J-10.
> 
> You can tell these pics are very old because Li Peng still look quite young at the time. And DSI concept is not new.


Thanks for correcting me. It seems that DSI was always on the cards.

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## Dazzler

Chak Bamu said:


> Thanks for correcting me. It seems that DSI was always on the cards.


They tested it on if17 first.

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## Windjammer



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Reichmarshal

Signalian said:


> We should be glad that J-10 acquisition didnt start rumors of kick backs unlike Rafale across the border.


Its difficult to give kick backs when the contract is govt to govt

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## Tariq Habib Afridi

Big_bud said:


> I came across this youtuber's video and he raised some quite interesting points regarding microchip manufacturing ability of Russia vs US & then China vs Russia for military use. I think its a really good analysis that he made and probably the reason why IAF is not so confident despite having massive sized, twin engined SU 30 MKIs and had to run and buy Rafales. We all saw what happened at 27th Feb!





Bin Laden said:


> Russia's Mikron fab can only produce up to 65nm.
> Meanwhile.....
> China's SMIC is mass producing 14/12nm (N+1 node(~8nm) in limited production) and only thing holding them back from 7/5/4/3nm is deined access from EUV lithography equipment which only one company in the world produces that is Deutch ASML.
> But china is working on its own EUV machine SMEE is a firm that's is working on such machines and currently have tech to manufacturer 28nm if they keep improving they might not even need ASML.





Gripen9 said:


> You are right!
> Mid 90s and US military hardware was not an option while Rafale/Typhoon were still in their infancy so IAF’s logical choice was Russian weapons.


What is the role of chip in aircraft? Will it effects its performance with respect to radar and tracking and directing weapon?


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## NA71

AeroEngineer said:


> By the time China will reach there, ASML has further tricks up their sleeve like NA EUV. Plus it’s not just the EUV machine, there are other collaborators involved like masking chemicals from Germany. They would like to keep China a generation behind in this technology.


My elder bro is Sr. Scientist at ASML

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## Tariq Habib Afridi

NA71 said:


> My elder bro is Sr. Scientist at ASML


Wow amazing


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## Beast

Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> What is the role of chip in aircraft? Will it effects its performance with respect to radar and tracking and directing weapon?


High end chips only matter in smart and demanding gadget like smartphone where big chips are not an option due to limited size.

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## Tariq Habib Afridi

Beast said:


> High end chips only matter in smart and demanding gadget like smartphone where big chips are not an option due to limited size.


I think it would matter in 6th generation aircraft where the role of AI will be the key and for AI a high end chip will be needed?


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## Tariq Habib Afridi

Big_bud said:


> I came across this youtuber's video and he raised some quite interesting points regarding microchip manufacturing ability of Russia vs US & then China vs Russia for military use. I think its a really good analysis that he made and probably the reason why IAF is not so confident despite having massive sized, twin engined SU 30 MKIs and had to run and buy Rafales. We all saw what happened at 27th Feb!


I have a question from the learned members here.. what kind of functionalities/capabilities are dependent on the chip speed in current 4th/5th generation aircrafts? I think in current 4th/5th generation aircrafts high end datalink is more important than the high end chip? Can anyone elaborate on the topic? Thanks


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Would be keen to know how the *JF17 Block III* performs vs *J10(P)*
Two Brand new Birds golden era for Pakistan's Airforce no doubt

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## Deino

V. Makarov said:


> Alhamdulillah, now we also have the Eurofighter Typhoon. Checkmate India.
> 
> 
> View attachment 827566




Where do you see a hint towards an Eurofighter???


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## jaybird

Chak Bamu said:


> Thanks for correcting me. It seems that DSI was always on the cards.



You are right. CAC might have DSI intake as one of the original design of J-10 all along. I read an article of J-10 development history mention that CAC re-designed the J-10 to fit the the AL-31 engine due to Chinese engine development couldn't catch up with the J-10 program at the time. 

And because of the engine change and change of air intake resulting in adding 6 extra reinforcing ribs due to insufficient strength to the connection part of the intake with the body of the original J-10A. The intake of the J-10A was joke of the town in the past by Chinese military enthusiasts because of how bad it look and J-10A got a bad nick name for it. There were also model of J-10 with the F-16 intake as one of the J-10 concept design as well.

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## ghazi52

,.,.





,.,.,.

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## Big_bud

Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> What is the role of chip in aircraft? Will it effects its performance with respect to radar and tracking and directing weapon?



Miniaturisation is very important in a fighter jet. There are a lot of computers and then there are 3-4 backup computers for everything, if 1 fails or gets damaged, the aircraft switches to the backup one. If one fails a logic test, the aircraft varifies with backup computers about various flight parimeters. There are complex software codes in use which constantly check information/data available. If something seems off, it is verified using backup systems. For example the altitude or throttle position is suddenly changed to 0. The aircraft has to then quickly process if this has really happenned or its just a failed sensor/ circuit. Hence processing power does matter. It can also effect speed of your aircraft's radar etc. How quickly an aircraft offers lock of an aircraft at front? Micro seconds difference also counts. But most importantly theres issue of size. If due to lack of miniaturisation, the aircraft is larger in size. You burn more fuel, you may have to use 2 engines instead of 1, double maintainance costs, double everything, double RCS. The smaller and faster & reliable chip in an aircraft the better it would be in a number of ways because everything is related in an aircraft.

Every aircraft has several of these:

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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> Where do you see a hint towards an Eurofighter???



That comment was in 'sarcasm'.

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## air marshal



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## The Terminator

Signalian said:


> We should be glad that J-10 acquisition didnt start rumors of kick backs unlike Rafale across the border.


Don't you worry it's french way of sweetening the deal! We got our fare share with their deals in the past 😜


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## siegecrossbow

Signalian said:


> We should be glad that J-10 acquisition didnt start rumors of kick backs unlike Rafale across the border.



The purposes of the sales are different. The French are all about making money off India while for China the security concern exceeds money making. Every J-10C exported to Pakistan is one less 4th generation fighter China needs to deploy in the Western Theater Command.

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## dbc

Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> I have a question from the learned members here.. what kind of functionalities/capabilities are dependent on the chip speed in current 4th/5th generation aircrafts? I think in current 4th/5th generation aircrafts high end datalink is more important than the high end chip? Can anyone elaborate on the topic? Thanks


"high end" data links will not eliminate latency and so off board compute resources is not really an option for sensor fusion, signal processing, radar or the mission computer. But Advanced Battle Management System (ABMS) can fuse data from all nodes, sensors and IoTs in the cloud and leverage AI to improve battlefield effectiveness within line of sight. Here the AESA radar is really useful on the fighter and is used to transmit data at high speeds, first generation APG-79 could transmit 128 mbps 15 years ago, today it's much faster.

To answer your question both (chip and data link) are equally important.

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## MastanKhan

The Terminator said:


> Don't you worry it's french way of sweetening the deal! We got our fare share with their deals in the past 😜



Hi,

Kickbacks are a part of defense deals. Kick backs MUST NEVER STOP a capable weapon deal.

A capable weapon on which kick backs are paid kills the enemy with the same intensity as the NON kick back weapon.

The F16 deal that we got the original sanctions on had $140 million kick back to Benazir Bhutto.

The Bofors 155 mm howitzers had kickbacks to Gandhi---. But did they perform well after 15 years of service---.

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## Clutch

ZY-CN-CA said:


> why F16 in front of J10， it is means F16 is better then J10 or is some air etiquette?



It's the PAF experienced father leading his newly graduated energetic son and welcoming him to the PAF big boy's league.

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## bnvtony

I dont worry the J10C can or can not take out Rafale.I worry about the capacity of air to ground attack with J10C...
China is a big country without war vs other country in the past decades.
the weapon engineers and designers in China ,just like a virgin boy,just like giant panda in animal world. they can design a good defence fighter like J10C just to fight with enemy fighter ,but as to attack the military target on the ground or on the sea surface agressively.....it just like to ask a monk to kill animal

the western style is absolute agressive so is the Rafale.yet chinese style is not agressive

so IAF can use Rafale to sneak attack the J10C when J10C are on the ground.
so the whole story could have nothing to do with AESA,SD10,PL10,PL15

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## Nomad40

ZY-CN-CA said:


> why F16 in front of J10， it is means F16 is better then J10 or is some air etiquette?


Commander of PAF was in the F-16, if he would be in a K-8 then that would have been the formation leader.

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## Signalian

Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> I have a question from the learned members here.. what kind of functionalities/capabilities are dependent on the chip speed in current 4th/5th generation aircrafts? I think in current 4th/5th generation aircrafts high end datalink is more important than the high end chip? Can anyone elaborate on the topic? Thanks





dbc said:


> "high end" data links will not eliminate latency and so off board compute resources is not really an option for sensor fusion, signal processing, radar or the mission computer. But Advanced Battle Management System (ABMS) can fuse data from all nodes, sensors and IoTs in the cloud and leverage AI to improve battlefield effectiveness within line of sight. Here the AESA radar is really useful on the fighter and is used to transmit data at high speeds, first generation APG-79 could transmit 128 mbps 15 years ago, today it's much faster.
> 
> To answer your question both (chip and data link) are equally important.


Do Radars(aircraft) talk to other radars (aircrafts) or do radars (aircrafts) need a data link to talk (send information) to other aircrafts ?

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## Tariq Habib Afridi

Signalian said:


> Do Radars(aircraft) talk to other radars (aircrafts) or do radars (aircrafts) need a data link to talk (send information) to other aircrafts ?


Got it they need data link to talk. Thanks


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## Tariq Habib Afridi

Big_bud said:


> Miniaturisation is very important in a fighter jet. There are a lot of computers and then there are 3-4 backup computers for everything, if 1 fails or gets damaged, the aircraft switches to the backup one. If one fails a logic test, the aircraft varifies with backup computers about various flight parimeters. There are complex software codes in use which constantly check information/data available. If something seems off, it is verified using backup systems. For example the altitude or throttle position is suddenly changed to 0. The aircraft has to then quickly process if this has really happenned or its just a failed sensor/ circuit. Hence processing power does matter. It can also effect speed of your aircraft's radar etc. How quickly an aircraft offers lock of an aircraft at front? Micro seconds difference also counts. But most importantly theres issue of size. If due to lack of miniaturisation, the aircraft is larger in size. You burn more fuel, you may have to use 2 engines instead of 1, double maintainance costs, double everything, double RCS. The smaller and faster & reliable chip in an aircraft the better it would be in a number of ways because everything is related in an aircraft.
> 
> Every aircraft has several of these:





dbc said:


> "high end" data links will not eliminate latency and so off board compute resources is not really an option for sensor fusion, signal processing, radar or the mission computer. But Advanced Battle Management System (ABMS) can fuse data from all nodes, sensors and IoTs in the cloud and leverage AI to improve battlefield effectiveness within line of sight. Here the AESA radar is really useful on the fighter and is used to transmit data at high speeds, first generation APG-79 could transmit 128 mbps 15 years ago, today it's much faster.
> 
> To answer your question both (chip and data link) are equally important.





Signalian said:


> Do Radars(aircraft) talk to other radars (aircrafts) or do radars (aircrafts) need a data link to talk (send information) to other aircrafts ?


Thank You All.. Then we know china is equal or better in data link but in semi conductor they lack behind west and USA. This means west aircraft will have edge on computing power?


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## air marshal



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## araz

The Terminator said:


> Don't you worry it's french way of sweetening the deal! We got our fare share with their deals in the past 😜


I think whatever has happened will happen behind the scene. There are commissions but we do not know whether they were taken or cost adjusted accordingly. This is the way of the weapons world.
A


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## Thrust_Vector998

*Can anybody translate? Apparently they also showed & said something about PL-15E*


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## air marshal



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## siegecrossbow

Thrust_Vector998 said:


> *Can anybody translate? Apparently they also showed & said something about PL-15E*



Nothing you don't already know. Don't rely on CCTV for any stat leaks.

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## dbc

Signalian said:


> Do Radars(aircraft) talk to other radars (aircrafts) or do radars (aircrafts) need a data link to talk (send information) to other aircrafts ?



The radar can transmit data along with a number of dedicated data transmitters on the surface of the aircraft. Since line of sight is important we cannot rely on just one transmitter or receiver. You will see antenna oriented towards the ground or space (satellite) or C2 nodes or other elements in your own fighter formation.

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## jaybird

Thrust_Vector998 said:


> *Can anybody translate? Apparently they also showed & said something about PL-15E*


Guys were talking about the J-10C aerodynamics, radar, missiles etc that's been talking about millions of times already. Last part was comparing PL-15's dual-pulse rocket motor and Meteor's ramjet motor design mechanism of how they work. And the advantage and drawbacks of the missiles.

Say PL-15 from firing to acceleration to high speed of mach 3 plus only took few seconds, if enemy fighter jet got locked on from 0-30km range there is no way to escape. And you can let the missile's own momentum gliding to the target mid range at good speed. And then fire up the second pulse from 80-100km plus and accelerate to the target. So, PL-15 got a very strong no-escape zone at close range and long range against target.

Meteor on the other hand is relatively slow picking up speed in the beginning due to more drag of the ramjet design. But once it picks up speed it last longer than conventional rocket, but once the rocket motor stop, then again due to the ramjet design the missile speed will decelerate very fast and no longer a threat to the target. So, there is a relative safe zone at short distance and also at long distance for the meteor because of the speed.


Also talk about Rafale got some fancy new techs like voice command in the cockpit. The thing was when Indian pilots start using some of these functions, it doesn't work as imagined because of the Indian pilot's accent. The mission computer of Rafale do not understand what the Indian pilots are trying to say with the heavy accent...........

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## Signalian

Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> Thank You All.. Then we know china is equal or better in data link but in semi conductor they lack behind west and USA. This means west aircraft will have edge on computing power?


You have to take into account RF conditions for transmission of signals when it leaves from transmitter to receiver. These include atmospheric conditions apart from path losses . Then the LOS and BLOS communication profiles. BLOS can be primarily SATCOM.



dbc said:


> The radar can transmit data along with a number of dedicated data transmitters on the surface of the aircraft. Since line of sight is important we cannot rely on just one transmitter or receiver. You will see antenna oriented towards the ground or space (satellite) or C2 nodes or other elements in your own fighter formation.


Creates redundancy.

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## Signalian

Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> Got it they need data link to talk. Thanks


Look into older radars like pulse Doppler radars (80’s tech ) like used by F-16. Did those radars have the capability to transmit data ? Let’s say NO. Then is that reason why link-16 was introduced as a data link - to share and transmit data.

However, do the PESA and AESA radars (modern tech) possess the capability to transmit data ?
Would that be redundancy, since data link is a dedicated module for exchanging data while a radar has many other functions to perform also.

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## Signalian

One more thing. UAVs have sensors, not radar, so for UAV a data link is mandatory for its operations. 
In feb 27 scenario, a type of mirage aircraft didn’t have radar, it used data link.

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## Akasa

jaybird said:


> The thing was when Indian pilots start using some of these functions, it doesn't work as imagined because of the Indian pilot's accent. The mission computer of Rafale do not understand what the Indian pilots are trying to say with the heavy accent...........



Is there any way the poster could know about this other than to pull it out of his behind?

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## jaybird

Akasa said:


> Is there any way the poster could know about this other than to pull it out of his behind?


That was just translation from around 4:27 to 4:52 mark of the video. The guy on the right say this was according to the feedback from some of the Indian pilots after flying the Rafale that the voice command is not working well maybe due to accent. Maybe he read some news or report about such a incident from Indian newspaper before or a troll comment. 

I honestly don't know if it's true or not or the source for his comment. I just tried to translate the video the best I can when some member ask for it.

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## maverick1977

Signalian said:


> Do Radars(aircraft) talk to other radars (aircrafts) or do radars (aircrafts) need a data link to talk (send information) to other aircrafts ?


Radar a transmitter and another radar also transmitter cannot talk to each other via datalink. you need recievers which are inside the plan to give you a visual. However, you need to get data from all transmitters to a central location which can give you a picture of multiple radars like AWACS, besides its own radar.


----------



## Signalian

dbc said:


> Here the AESA radar is really useful on the fighter and is used to transmit data at high speeds, first generation APG-79 could transmit 128 mbps 15 years ago, today it's much faster.


A source for article please. I want to read into this. Thx



maverick1977 said:


> Radar a transmitter and another radar also transmitter cannot talk to each other via datalink. you need recievers which are inside the plan to give you a visual. However, you need to get data from all transmitters to a central location which can give you a picture of multiple radars like AWACS, besides its own radar.


Talk as in send data in bits. I didn’t mean Comms

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## A1Kaid

Any plans for Pakistan to indigenously manufacture in part or whole the J-10C? Or is PAF really just focused on the 5th gen project with Turkiye...


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## SQ8

Signalian said:


> Look into older radars like pulse Doppler radars (80’s tech ) like used by F-16. Did those radars have the capability to transmit data ? Let’s say NO. Then is that reason why link-16 was introduced as a data link - to share and transmit data.
> 
> However, do the PESA and AESA radars (modern tech) possess the capability to transmit data ?
> Would that be redundancy, since data link is a dedicated module for exchanging data while a radar has many other functions to perform also.


Data link = a link for transmitting data.
Without a link there is no transmission. Even if a Radar is “talking” to another radar without any other system able to talk - it is still using a data link.



dbc said:


> "high end" data links will not eliminate latency and so off board compute resources is not really an option for sensor fusion, signal processing, radar or the mission computer. But Advanced Battle Management System (ABMS) can fuse data from all nodes, sensors and IoTs in the cloud and leverage AI to improve battlefield effectiveness within line of sight. Here the AESA radar is really useful on the fighter and is used to *transmit data at high speeds*, first generation APG-79 could transmit 128 mbps 15 years ago, today it's much faster.
> 
> To answer your question both (chip and data link) are equally important.


The AESA is still acting as a Data-Link. I think we need to decouple the term from dedicated comm-links. At the end Link-16 or 22 are transmission standards and any equipment capable of adapting them can operate on the same net.
An interesting paper I read a few years ago was to use the 5G antenna’s which are mostly moving to ESA and beamforming to form a low level radar net; giving a country a secondary capabilityx

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## RAMPAGE

A1Kaid said:


> Any plans for Pakistan to indigenously manufacture in part or whole the J-10C? Or is PAF really just focused on the 5th gen project with Turkiye...


Seems we are not doing either.

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## Bleek

A1Kaid said:


> Any plans for Pakistan to indigenously manufacture in part or whole the J-10C? Or is PAF really just focused on the 5th gen project with Turkiye...


What's the benefit of manufacturing our J-10C's in Pakistan? Will the overall cost be slightly cheaper? Will we learn something we didn't learn from manufacturing JF-17s?


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## GriffinsRule

Bleek said:


> What's the benefit of manufacturing our J-10C's in Pakistan? Will the overall cost be slightly cheaper? Will we learn something we didn't learn from manufacturing JF-17s?


Cost will be significantly higher.

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## MastanKhan

jaybird said:


> Guys were talking about the J-10C aerodynamics, radar, missiles etc that's been talking about millions of times already. Last part was comparing PL-15's dual-pulse rocket motor and Meteor's ramjet motor design mechanism of how they work. And the advantage and drawbacks of the missiles.
> 
> Say PL-15 from firing to acceleration to high speed of mach 3 plus only took few seconds, if enemy fighter jet got locked on from 0-30km range there is no way to escape. And you can let the missile's own momentum gliding to the target mid range at good speed. And then fire up the second pulse from 80-100km plus and accelerate to the target. So, PL-15 got a very strong no-escape zone at close range and long range against target.
> 
> Meteor on the other hand is relatively slow picking up speed in the beginning due to more drag of the ramjet design. But once it picks up speed it last longer than conventional rocket, but once the rocket motor stop, then again due to the ramjet design the missile speed will decelerate very fast and no longer a threat to the target. So, there is a relative safe zone at short distance and also at long distance for the meteor because of the speed.
> 
> 
> Also talk about Rafale got some fancy new techs like voice command in the cockpit. The thing was when Indian pilots start using some of these functions, it doesn't work as imagined because of the Indian pilot's accent. The mission computer of Rafale do not understand what the Indian pilots are trying to say with the heavy accent...........



Hi,

If you locked the enemy at 30 km range---you would already be dead by enemy's missile.



A1Kaid said:


> Any plans for Pakistan to indigenously manufacture in part or whole the J-10C? Or is PAF really just focused on the 5th gen project with Turkiye...



Hi,

Why would Paf want to assemble J10's in pakistan and make the assembly plant a target for the enemy strike.

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## siegecrossbow

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If you locked the enemy at 30 km range---you would already be dead by enemy's missile.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Why would Paf want to assemble J10's in pakistan and make the assembly plant a target for the enemy strike.



Not necessarily. Missile range degrades by quite a lot at lower altitudes. Ranges of over 100KM are usually achieved by sending the missile in a high parabolic trajectory.

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## SQ8

siegecrossbow said:


> Not necessarily. Missile range degrades by quite a lot at lower altitudes. Ranges of over 100KM are usually achieved by sending the missile in a high parabolic trajectory.


Altitude(incl. relative) & velocity of both launch platform and target

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## Chak Bamu

Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> Thank You All.. Then we know china is equal or better in data link but in semi conductor they lack behind west and USA. This means west aircraft will have edge on computing power?


I am certainly not an expert when it comes to Data-links, electronics etc... But I think one thing needs to be said:

There are some considerations that are more important that raw speed (& therefore extreme miniaturization). Reliability & longevity are very important because a smart phone circuit malfunctioning does not have similar consequences as a circuit malfunctioning in an aircraft. Military grade electronics have much more demanding specifications & to achieve those cutting-edge miniaturization is not conducive. What this means is that current manufacturing capability of China does not necessarily translate into a decisive edge to West Europe / USA.

IIRC F-16 computers operated at around 100 KIPS (or less), even when consumer electronics had gone beyond 1 MIPS (early 90s).

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## Signalian

SQ8 said:


> Data link = a link for transmitting data.
> Without a link there is no transmission. Even if a Radar is “talking” to another radar without any other system able to talk - it is still using a data link.
> 
> 
> The AESA is still acting as a Data-Link. I think we need to decouple the term from dedicated comm-links. At the end Link-16 or 22 are transmission standards and any equipment capable of adapting them can operate on the same net.
> An interesting paper I read a few years ago was to use the 5G antenna’s which are mostly moving to ESA and beamforming to form a low level radar net; giving a country a secondary capabilityx


For UAVS, worked on a separate data link module by itself. No radar involved. So considered it as dedicated link for data transfer. Probably for fighters, radar has many tasks to perform.

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## tphuang

Tariq Habib Afridi said:


> Thank You All.. Then we know china is equal or better in data link but in semi conductor they lack behind west and USA. This means west aircraft will have edge on computing power?



Do not make the mistake of overestimating the chips used in military aircraft. Think about how old F-22 is and what kind of military grade chips were available at the time?

Even in China, the chips used in modern military aircraft are not produced by SMIC or YMTC. Those are not rugged enough to handle military applications. Similarly, the processors used in your typical F-35s is way behind what's available commercially.

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## siegecrossbow

tphuang said:


> Do not make the mistake of overestimating the chips used in military aircraft. Think about how old F-22 is and what kind of military grade chips were available at the time?
> 
> Even in China, the chips used in modern military aircraft are not produced by SMIC or YMTC. Those are not rugged enough to handle military applications. Similarly, the processors used in your typical F-35s is way behind what's available commercially.



Fun fact. A lot of the chips used on Chinese and American planes are actually fabbed by the same company .

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## SQ8

Signalian said:


> For UAVS, worked on a separate data link module by itself. No radar involved. So considered it as dedicated link for data transfer. Probably for fighters, radar has many tasks to perform.


If one thinks about this and the aspect of governance from its prrimary controller - all you really have to do is write code for the DSP and have the Main processor call to it when required.

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## siegecrossbow

SQ8 said:


> If one thinks about this and the aspect of governance from its prrimary controller - all you really have to do is write code for the DSP and have the Main processor call to it when required.



Looking at this is bringing back PTSD from my DSP class during undergrad.

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## dbc

Signalian said:


> A source for article please. I want to read into this. Thx
> 
> 
> Talk as in send data in bits. I didn’t mean Comms


No source on APG-79, it was many years ago it came up in an academic discussion @berkeley

APG-77 has been tested up-to 1Gbps


For the testing, the F-22 Raptor’s AN/APG-77 radar was linked to an L-3 Communications modem. The modem is software-programmable, which means it can be adapted to send and receive using various protocols (“waveforms”). For the test, they used a modified CDL [Radar Common Data Link] waveform, and the entire array of elements in the radar. They then demonstrated the transfer of a 72 MB synthetic aperture radar image in 3.5 seconds at a data rate of 274 Mbps. That would have taken 48 minutes using Link 16, which is the standard data exchange system in US and allied equipment. In practice, that means the sensor data is downloaded and communicated only when the plane lands.

What if that sort of thing could happen in near-real time instead?

Aviation Week reports that the researchers eventually demonstrated lab *transmission rates of 548 Mbps, and receive data rates of up to 1 Gbps.*









Elec Tricks: Turning AESA Radars Into Broadband Comlinks


The F/A-22 and F-35's advanced built-in radars and electronics can be levered to turn these planes into electronic warfare aircraft. Meanwhile, some of the key trends in military I/O highlight the increasing need for high-bandwidth links. That need is biting



www.defenseindustrydaily.com

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## Windjammer

PAF LIONS | Facebook


10K views, 215 likes, 30 loves, 2 comments, 74 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from PAF LIONS:




fb.watch


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## GriffinsRule

Windjammer said:


> PAF LIONS | Facebook
> 
> 
> 10K views, 215 likes, 30 loves, 2 comments, 74 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from PAF LIONS:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fb.watch


Nothing new here. Same cropped clip from the induction ceremony, just with poorer quality

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## Signalian

SQ8 said:


> If one thinks about this and the aspect of governance from its prrimary controller - all you really have to do is write code for the DSP and have the Main processor call to it when required.


On a basic level, yes, its easy to lay out a design and join components in a diagram like the one you showed. However moving towards meeting KPIs for design and then deployment, many other factors need to be looked into like requirements for throughput, BER and latency, modulation techniques, constraints of multipath, fading, interference, choosing Multiplexing (e.g OFDMA or SCFDMA or a system with OFDM in downlink and TDMA in uplink), bands for LOS and BLOS along with the spectrum, the functionalities of SDR and most importantly cyber-physical security or encryption methods. On the RF side, the three links (A2G, A2A, air to satellite) with their own models and path loss. More on the design side of things.


----------



## MastanKhan

tphuang said:


> Do not make the mistake of overestimating the chips used in military aircraft. Think about how old F-22 is and what kind of military grade chips were available at the time?
> 
> Even in China, the chips used in modern military aircraft are not produced by SMIC or YMTC. Those are not rugged enough to handle military applications. Similarly, the processors used in your typical F-35s is way behind what's available commercially.



Hi,

I would repeat a story I wrote here.

One of my colleagues dated an engineer girl working on the F16 manufacturing---she was riding his new Q45 sedan early 2000's---.

Suddenly she blurted out---the navigation in your car is far advanced in the latest model of the F16---he was surprised---to which she replied---all military applications have to be "rugged" enough to be military grade---and they are of older technology than what is available in the market.

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## Windjammer

GriffinsRule said:


> Nothing new here. Same cropped clip from the induction ceremony, just with poorer quality


Like Training is better than Coaching, just like that, Contributing is better than wasting bandwidth on merely Complaining.


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## The Terminator

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Kickbacks are a part of defense deals. Kick backs MUST NEVER STOP a capable weapon deal.
> 
> A capable weapon on which kick backs are paid kills the enemy with the same intensity as the NON kick back weapon.
> 
> The F16 deal that we got the original sanctions on had $140 million kick back to Benazir Bhutto.
> 
> The Bofors 155 mm howitzers had kickbacks to Gandhi---. But did they perform well after 15 years of service---.


So you are justifying corruption that way. The kickbacks not only an added burden to the national exchequer but is also used to influence the decision making and buying loyalties for the lifetime. A hefty $140 million kickbacks paid to the officials and would have done the deal on highly exaggerated prices, so ripping off the Pakistani tax payer with both hands and also buying the loyalties of the officials involved for rest of their lives. That's why people like Hussain haqqani born and flourish in Pakistan.


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## Al_Muhannad

siegecrossbow said:


> Looking at this is bringing back PTSD from my DSP class during undergrad.


DSP and FPGAs are a match made in heaven. Nowadays DNN Acceleration is the new norm.

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## MIRauf

The Terminator said:


> So you are justifying corruption that way. The kickbacks not only an added burden to the national exchequer but is also used to influence the decision making and buying loyalties for the lifetime. A hefty $140 million kickbacks paid to the officials and would have done the deal on highly exaggerated prices, so ripping off the Pakistani tax payer with both hands and also buying the loyalties of the officials involved for rest of their lives. That's why people like Hussain haqqani born and flourish in Pakistan.


One of the last time people threw monkey wrench for adding bribe for the then "Mr. 10%," it cost the PAF M2K with BVR and decade plus of just relying on 32 odd F-16 Block15 with no BVR.

Are bribe takers bad people ? sure just ask Adnan Khashoggi. "The world needs bad men. We keep the other bad men from the door." Early 80s F-16 deal is marred with bribe accusations, has it kept the IAF at bay for the last three odd plus decades ?

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## iLION12345_1

MIRauf said:


> One of the last time people threw monkey wrench for adding bribe for the then "Mr. 10%," it cost the PAF M2K with BVR and decade plus of just relying on 32 odd F-16 Block15 with no BVR.
> 
> Are bribe takers bad people ? sure, "The world needs bad men. We keep the other bad men from the door." Early 80s F-16 deal is marred with bribe accusations, has it kept the IAF at bay for the last three odd plus decades ?


Another example would be the massive scandals that occurred with the PNs Agosta 90B program…
but then it allowed PN to be the first in the region to deploy AIP submarines and they have been pivotal in PNs capability against the IN since induction. 

Given how little attention the PN got in the last decade or so, those three submarines and a few P3Cs were single-handedly carrying Pakistans entire naval defense for the last 15 years, thankfully things have improved now.

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## GriffinsRule

Windjammer said:


> Like Training is better than Coaching, just like that, Contributing is better than wasting bandwidth on merely Complaining.


ONE can argue posting it was wasting bandwidth too

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## MastanKhan

The Terminator said:


> So you are justifying corruption that way. The kickbacks not only an added burden to the national exchequer but is also used to influence the decision making and buying loyalties for the lifetime. A hefty $140 million kickbacks paid to the officials and would have done the deal on highly exaggerated prices, so ripping off the Pakistani tax payer with both hands and also buying the loyalties of the officials involved for rest of their lives. That's why people like Hussain haqqani born and flourish in Pakistan.


Hi,

Seems like you have the inability to understand tje procurement of weapons and how important they are in our lives.

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## The Terminator

Bleek said:


> What's the benefit of manufacturing our J-10C's in Pakistan? Will the overall cost be slightly cheaper? Will we learn something we didn't learn from manufacturing JF-17s?


One of the reasons for purchasing J-10C is, we aren't capable enough to mass produce huge numbers of aircrafts at home. JF-17's production rate couldn't keep up for the replacement program of the older jets and there have been export orders on top of it. Same goes for the MBT acquisition program. Al-Khalid 1 suffers from the same issues, sluggish developmental phase and pathetic production rates. Chinese are the most efficient when it comes to mass production at breakneck speeds. No one competes China in that field.



siegecrossbow said:


> Fun fact. A lot of the chips used on Chinese and American planes are actually fabbed by the same company .


TSMC is the king in the field.

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## The Terminator

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I would repeat a story I wrote here.
> 
> One of my colleagues dated an engineer girl working on the F16 manufacturing---she was riding his new Q45 sedan early 2000's---.
> 
> Suddenly she blurted out---the navigation in your car is far advanced in the latest model of the F16---he was surprised---to which she replied---all military applications have to be "rugged" enough to be military grade---and they are of older technology than what is available in the market.


Yes it has been the case. They were still using 16 or 32 bit mission computers when virtually every street hawker had access to a 64-bit quad-core/octa-core smartphones. 

But that's gonna change in F-35 block 4 upgrades. There are so much drastic changes that it would virtually be equivalent to a top notch crypto currency rig. The requirements of having feeds from multiple assets simultaneously and fusing them into a single realtime display output while also relaying similar amounts of data to multiple assets too. So 5th gen fighters with advanced datalinks, sensor/data fusion, complete 360 degree situational awareness in 3D environment, controlling multiple companion drones as well as sharing realtime video feeds with various assets have now pushed the boundaries of computing power in modern 5th gen fighters and upcoming 6th gen fighters. We would find upcoming blocks of fighters as flying huge a$$ GPUs 😜


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## Chak Bamu

The Terminator said:


> Yes it has been the case. They were still using 16 or 32 bit mission computers when virtually every street hawker had access to a 64-bit quad-core/octa-core smartphones.
> 
> But that's gonna change in F-35 block 4 upgrades. There are so much drastic changes that it would virtually be equivalent to a top notch crypto currency rig. The requirements of having feeds from multiple assets simultaneously and fusing them into a single realtime display output while also relaying similar amounts of data to multiple assets too. So 5th gen fighters with advanced datalinks, sensor/data fusion, complete 360 degree situational awareness in 3D environment, controlling multiple companion drones as well as sharing realtime video feeds with various assets have now pushed the boundaries of computing power in modern 5th gen fighters and upcoming 6th gen fighters. We would find upcoming blocks of fighters as flying huge a$$ GPUs 😜


EMP can take care of all that. Just few dozen KM high & boom, all electronics in all the gadgets would be done for - except good ol' vacuum tubes, of course.

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## PakFactor

Chak Bamu said:


> EMP can take care of all that. Just few dozen KM high & boom, all electronics in all the gadgets would be done for - except good ol' vacuum tubes, of course.



Don’t know if we have the tech in Pakistan. But to use that useless your taking about hitting their bases direct with it.


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## Chak Bamu

PakFactor said:


> Don’t know if we have the tech in Pakistan. But to renew that useless your taking about hitting their bases direct with it.


Oh we have the tech in Pakistan alright. LOL....

Just saying that modern electronics has a huge Achilles' heel. In a total war, EMP is a plausible weapon.

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## Meliodas

The Terminator said:


> Yes it has been the case. They were still using 16 or 32 bit mission computers when virtually every street hawker had access to a 64-bit quad-core/octa-core smartphones.
> 
> But that's gonna change in F-35 block 4 upgrades. There are so much drastic changes that it would virtually be equivalent to a top notch crypto currency rig. The requirements of having feeds from multiple assets simultaneously and fusing them into a single realtime display output while also relaying similar amounts of data to multiple assets too. So 5th gen fighters with advanced datalinks, sensor/data fusion, complete 360 degree situational awareness in 3D environment, controlling multiple companion drones as well as sharing realtime video feeds with various assets have now pushed the boundaries of computing power in modern 5th gen fighters and upcoming 6th gen fighters. We would find upcoming blocks of fighters as flying huge a$$ GPUs 😜


In terms of data security older systems are better, for most of their loop holes also there's less wannabees available. Also as systems get old there are less skilled force in the open to exploit them.


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## PakFactor

Chak Bamu said:


> Oh we have the tech in Pakistan alright. LOL....
> 
> Just saying that modern electronics has a huge Achilles' heel. In a total war, EMP is a plausible weapon.



Can it be delivered to enemy territory? Either next door or an ocean way?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MIRauf said:


> One of the last time people threw monkey wrench for adding bribe for the then "Mr. 10%," it cost the PAF M2K with BVR and decade plus of just relying on 32 odd F-16 Block15 with no BVR.
> 
> Are bribe takers bad people ? sure just ask Adnan Khashoggi. "The world needs bad men. We keep the other bad men from the door." Early 80s F-16 deal is marred with bribe accusations, has it kept the IAF at bay for the last three odd plus decades ?


IIRC the issue with the M2K deal(s) wasn't just the corruption or kickbacks, but the cost was _really_ high. Despite all that, the PAF was largely game, but the French finance ministry wasn't forthcoming with releasing the loan. Ultimately, the M2K deals (we tried twice in the 1990s) fell through whenever the PPP governments in those times collapsed.

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## SABRE

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IIRC the issue with the M2K deal(s) wasn't just the corruption or kickbacks, but the cost was _really_ high. Despite all that, the PAF was largely game, but the French finance ministry wasn't forthcoming with releasing the loan. Ultimately, the M2K deals (we tried twice in the 1990s) fell through whenever the PPP governments in those times collapsed.



I think, although I am unsure of this, Clinton Admin at one point was thinking of releasing the F-16 money that BB gov had paid the US to France for potential Pakistani Mirage 2000-5. Don't know what happened to it though.

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## White and Green with M/S

bnvtony said:


> so IAF can use Rafale to sneak attack the J10C when J10C are on the ground.
> so the whole story could have nothing to do with AESA,SD10,PL10,PL15



Lol and Pakistan has no air defense to stop RAFALE lol

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## dbc

Chak Bamu said:


> EMP can take care of all that. Just few dozen KM high & boom, all electronics in all the gadgets would be done for - except good ol' vacuum tubes, of course.



It isn't a foregone conclusion, most military aircraft have varying degrees of protection against EMP attack but survivability depends on proximity and intensity of the attack. See image of the Typhoon being tested with an HPD Horizontally Polarized Dipole simulator. Larger aircraft such as B-52, B1-B Lancer or Airforce one B747 have greater volume and MTOW therefore have the greatest protection.

Survivability against a EMP attack in a modern Western fighter is relatively assured, contrary to evidence seen in cut scenes from Call of duty . Unless the aircraft is very near a HEMP event i.e. such as a high altitude nuclear blast.

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## Chak Bamu

PakFactor said:


> Can it be delivered to enemy territory? Either next door or an ocean way?


Sure. All it takes is a ballistic missile with a nuclear device. Its a Samson-type of option though. I brought it up in half-jest.

But read @dbc post first. He has stated why it is not a certainty.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Windjammer



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## tphuang

White and Green with M/S said:


> Lol and Pakistan has no air defense to stop RAFALE lol



I did see that Pakistan got ylc8e recently. This is a very advanced early warning radar. It's capable of detecting stealth aircraft from a long way off and cue air defense radar and aircraft fire control radar. China actually has probably the most capable air defense and early warning radar network in the world due to the us stealth threat. So if Pakistan is working with china to build similar air defense network, I would have very strong confidence in it. Of course, you need not only hg16, hq16, but close in weapon system, ew station, different types of radar and aerial surveillance systems.

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## TsAr

Chak Bamu said:


> Oh we have the tech in Pakistan alright. LOL....
> 
> Just saying that modern electronics has a huge Achilles' heel. In a total war, EMP is a plausible weapon.


Are you referring to HEMP (high-altitude _electromagnetic pulse)._

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## denel

Goenitz said:


> @denel brother where are you.. hope you are all well..


hello brother.

I am good; was very busy with research work some personal issues. 

Just have been put off this forum given the chinese/indian trash that has taken over this forum; it is just not a place where one felt happy to be with.

My congrats to PAF to getting the J10C.

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## Goenitz

denel said:


> Just have been put off this forum given the chinese/indian trash that has taken over this forum; it is just not a place where one felt happy to be with.


I know your China stance 
Anyway, so happy that you are still doing reserach, you Miraj boy. Stay blessed and keep rocking sir.

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## denel

PakFactor said:


> Can it be delivered to enemy territory? Either next door or an ocean way?


Yes it can as my friend @Chak Bamu notes.

During our angola ops; i used to have the pleasure of opening captured russian manpacks and trying to see what was there. it was all vaccuum tubes; in some cases really good ceramic tubes; the rationale was if there was an EMP; all solid state would not work but these would. Yugoslavia was the first ones to buck the eastern block tradition by using solid state devices from 1975 onwards.

EMP also has some nasty side effects; just like you cause complete black out on the other side; the proximity also will blind you as well. 

Hence, not a good idea.

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## StructE

Chak Bamu said:


> Oh we have the tech in Pakistan alright. LOL....
> 
> Just saying that modern electronics has a huge Achilles' heel. In a total war, EMP is a plausible weapon.


All critical electronics is generally shielded from EMP. Not sure about infrastructure in south asia, but fighter jets etc. are all covered.



https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/19_0307_CISA_EMP-Protection-Resilience-Guidelines.pdf

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ghazi52

.,.,.
"ICONIC DUO"
Peacetime QRA is low-glamor police work to a fighter pilot, but virtually every nation with sufficient resources keeps fighters on alert, from PAF's brand new J-10C Indus Dragons to its Legendary protector F-16 Vipers, always ready to defend the sovereign skies.







,.,.,.,.,.,.,

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## denel

StructE said:


> All critical electronics is generally shielded from EMP. Not sure about infrastructure in south asia, but fighter jets etc. are all covered.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/19_0307_CISA_EMP-Protection-Resilience-Guidelines.pdf


This is correct, shielding does a good job; however it is not fool proof. At CSIR we have EMP testing facility to test the resilience of equipment; we found always there were weak spots that always fail. Given the quality I have seen of chinese equipment of late, EMP shield is moderate to low.

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## Scorpiooo

Can PAF get few used J10S (dual seater) for training purposes

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.,.,
PAF J-10C Oil On Canvas.






Art Courtesy - Waqar Ahmed Rana
.,.,

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## Avicenna

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.,.,.,
> PAF J-10C Oil On Canvas.
> 
> View attachment 829632
> 
> 
> Art Courtesy - Waqar Ahmed Rana
> .,.,



Wow.

That's beautiful.

I would hang that on my wall at home honestly.

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## Windjammer

The ultimate Game Changer.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## araz

Windjammer said:


> The ultimate Game Changer.
> 
> View attachment 830184


Has anyone got any inkling of the numbers of J10s that hqve been acquired. A lot of njmbers are beeing bandied, 25, 36 or 60. Where does the truth lies.
A


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## ghazi52

,.,.,.,.,






PAF Chengdu J-10CE.

Credit



- Hamsa Ali Hussein / Jetphotos

.,.,.,.,

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## GriffinsRule

Interested folks, kindly listen to this interview with the Typhoon pilot talking about the time Eurofighter was being inducted in RAF. I expect a similar process is ongoing within Pakistan right now with the J-10C. 
Should also give folks an idea of the timelines that are involved in truly integrating a brand new aircraft in the air force.

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## Luosifen

China's CCTV7 channel did a segment on the PAFs new fighters.

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## HRK

Luosifen said:


> China's CCTV7 channel did a segment on the PAFs new fighters.


summary ???


----------



## ghazi52

.,.,.,






The first J-10C Pilots....

.,.,

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## Luosifen

HRK said:


> summary ???


-talked about the basic history of Pakistan's acquisition of Chinese aircraft
-J-10CE gives PAF improved multi-role capability, comment that Pakistan still had time to decide on procurement, but in the current environment they are putting more importance on cooperation with China, Western options have many conditions attached that can restrict operations, Pakistan now able to get high overall performance, rely on China's overall manufacturing power and plug into Pakistan's already existing support infrastructure for Chinese equipment to boost defense capabilities
-development history of JF-17, made a brief mention that the -17 designation was to indicate it surpassed the F-16, JF-17 first to use DSI that was then used on later Chinese fighters J-10C and J-20, used a new method of design and manufacture that allows new features to be added without need to redesign the entire plane as was done for previous projects
-K-8 development history
-acquisitions of Chinese aircraft starting at J-6/F-6
-countering IAF new fighters, F-16 will have difficulties with upgrades because of USG obstacles
-J-10CE will be hi, JF-17 -lo of hi-lo mix
-looking forward to future cooperation of Pakistan with Chinese defense and aerospace industry as it continues to progress (FC-31 is hinted at)

I probably left out a couple things, don't think I saw anything brand new here that wasn't covered in previous threads.

There was a J-10C documentary from CCTV7 at the end of March that mentioned it can carry YJ-91 and Kh-88 missiles for ground attack (shouldn't be anything new either).

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## Yasser76

Luosifen said:


> -talked about the basic history of Pakistan's acquisition of Chinese aircraft
> -J-10CE gives PAF improved multi-role capability, comment that Pakistan still had time to decide on procurement, but in the current environment they are putting more importance on cooperation with China, Western options have many conditions attached that can restrict operations, Pakistan now able to get high overall performance, rely on China's overall manufacturing power and plug into Pakistan's already existing support infrastructure for Chinese equipment to boost defense capabilities
> -development history of JF-17, made a brief mention that the -17 designation was to indicate it surpassed the F-16, JF-17 first to use DSI that was then used on later Chinese fighters J-10C and J-20, used a new method of design and manufacture that allows new features to be added without need to redesign the entire plane as was done for previous projects
> -K-8 development history
> -acquisitions of Chinese aircraft starting at J-6/F-6
> -countering IAF new fighters, F-16 will have difficulties with upgrades because of USG obstacles
> -J-10CE will be hi, JF-17 -lo of hi-lo mix
> -looking forward to future cooperation of Pakistan with Chinese defense and aerospace industry as it continues to progress (FC-31 is hinted at)
> 
> I probably left out a couple things, don't think I saw anything brand new here that wasn't covered in previous threads



Appreciate you taking time to translate for us, thank you.

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## Vapnope

Whatever happened to EW plane that was supposedly a part of the package?


----------



## Windjammer



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## HRK

Luosifen said:


> -talked about the basic history of Pakistan's acquisition of Chinese aircraft
> -J-10CE gives PAF improved multi-role capability, comment that Pakistan still had time to decide on procurement, but in the current environment they are putting more importance on cooperation with China, Western options have many conditions attached that can restrict operations, Pakistan now able to get high overall performance, rely on China's overall manufacturing power and plug into Pakistan's already existing support infrastructure for Chinese equipment to boost defense capabilities
> -development history of JF-17, made a brief mention that the -17 designation was to indicate it surpassed the F-16, JF-17 first to use DSI that was then used on later Chinese fighters J-10C and J-20, used a new method of design and manufacture that allows new features to be added without need to redesign the entire plane as was done for previous projects
> -K-8 development history
> -acquisitions of Chinese aircraft starting at J-6/F-6
> -countering IAF new fighters, F-16 will have difficulties with upgrades because of USG obstacles
> -J-10CE will be hi, JF-17 -lo of hi-lo mix
> -looking forward to future cooperation of Pakistan with Chinese defense and aerospace industry as it continues to progress (FC-31 is hinted at)
> 
> I probably left out a couple things, don't think I saw anything brand new here that wasn't covered in previous threads.
> 
> There was a J-10C documentary from CCTV7 at the end of March that mentioned it can carry YJ-91 and Kh-88 missiles for ground attack (shouldn't be anything new either).


Thnx and appreciate your detail reply

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## nomi007

Any Picture of J-10CP with F-16 bk52 available?


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## Gangetic

nomi007 said:


> Any Picture of J-10CP with F-16 bk52 available?

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.




,.,.,.,.

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## Luosifen

No new sightings besides the 6 initial yet?


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## maverick1977

In June, 12-14 more to complete the sq 15. approx 150-200 PL15 live and training missiles.

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## ghazi52

nomi007 said:


> Any Picture of J-10CP with F-16 bk52 available?



,.,.




,.,.,..

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## siegecrossbow

Luosifen said:


> No new sightings besides the 6 initial yet?



Pilot training, aircraft/engine manufacturing, etc. all take time.

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## MastanKhan

Luosifen said:


> No new sightings besides the 6 initial yet?



Hi,

Integration is a very long process needing a lots of patience.

It is now being integrated at a local operational air base level.

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## nomi007

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.
> View attachment 830634
> 
> ,.,.,..


on ground


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## Scorpiooo

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Integration is a very long process needing a lots of patience.
> 
> It is now being integrated at a local operational air base level.


How much time it will take to be actually operationalised for PAF ...


----------



## GriffinsRule

Scorpiooo said:


> How much time it will take to be actually operationalised for PAF ...


2-3 years

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## MastanKhan

Scorpiooo said:


> How much time it will take to be actually operationalised for PAF ...



Hi,

Actually they are operationally capable to take any action in air to air or air to ground role. The current crew is well trained---.

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## Readerdefence

Hi about pilot training this been started since COAS (Bajwa) last time inspected J10 in Pakistan during shaheen exercise 
so if we go through that time Line about almost 2 years 
thank you


----------



## GriffinsRule

Readerdefence said:


> Hi about pilot training this been started since COAS (Bajwa) last time inspected J10 in Pakistan during shaheen exercise
> so if we go through that time Line about almost 2 years
> thank you


That's not how it works


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## MastanKhan

Readerdefence said:


> Hi about pilot training this been started since COAS (Bajwa) last time inspected J10 in Pakistan during shaheen exercise
> so if we go through that time Line about almost 2 years
> thank you


Hi, 

It has been assumed that pilot training had started awhile ago, so you seem to be correct

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## Readerdefence

GriffinsRule said:


> That's not how it works


Hi if possible to shed some light on your statement will be helpful to understand 
thank you



GriffinsRule said:


> 2-3 years


Hi as you have mentioned yourself 2/3 years of time line which I do agree with you though I believe this 2/3 is from the day of purchase in case of j10 it’s been decided I believe 2018/2019 when Chinese pitched these in Pakistan against PAF and as a unusual way instead of ACM COAS been briefed about this jet by Chinese infact he himself checked the cockpit lay out while been inside the plane 
thank you


----------



## Rafi

PAF Pilots have been in China for atleast 2 years, and not just Pilots, ground crew, maintenance, so I expect the Dragons to be available for combat in short order.

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## GriffinsRule

Readerdefence said:


> Hi if possible to shed some light on your statement will be helpful to understand
> thank you
> 
> 
> Hi as you have mentioned yourself 2/3 years of time line which I do agree with you though I believe this 2/3 is from the day of purchase in case of j10 it’s been decided I believe 2018/2019 when Chinese pitched these in Pakistan against PAF and as a unusual way instead of ACM COAS been briefed about this jet by Chinese infact he himself checked the cockpit lay out while been inside the plane
> thank you


Its not just that 2 or 10 pilots know how to fly or employ the aircraft. The 2-3 years is not to integrate the aircraft into PAF, how it will be employed in its role, and how PAFs doctrine will change with the new system (and capabilities via AESA). Its not as simple as just being able to fly and shoot missiles. 
Kindly watch the interview I posted above and give it some thought then.

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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> Its not just that 2 or 10 pilots know how to fly or employ the aircraft. The 2-3 years is not to integrate the aircraft into PAF, how it will be employed in its role, and how PAFs doctrine will change with the new system (and capabilities via AESA). Its not as simple as just being able to fly and shoot missiles.
> Kindly watch the interview I posted above and give it some thought then.


Hi,

It was full integration training in china with the available crew from pilots to the support staff---basically at a sqdrn level you may say---so that a sqdrn level participation may take place during a combat.

Now the aircraft is in full integration mode which will take its own sweet time to happen.

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## MastanKhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It has been assumed that pilot training had started awhile ago, so you seem to be correct



Hi,

The USAF believes that it takes atleast 5 years to make a pilot a tier 1 pilot and as the Paf is based on the USAF structure---it is accepted that a Paf pilot would be falling in the similar category.

Which then brings about the fact that the 1st batch of Paf pilots may have been training on the J10's for longer than the anticipated 2 years time period.

Flying a modern aircraft is a tedious affair---flying a modern aircraft and being able to be number one is more than a tedious affair.

Just remember---part of integration is also having atleast 2.5 pilots per aircraft ready to go( that number is of the paf pilots per aircraft )---so the current batch may have 8-10 pilots ready for the 6 J10's in stock---but to get more aircraft---Paf needs more pilots--at least 90 to a 100 pilots for 2 sqdrn's of the J10's---.

Pilots---weapons---aesa radar---ew package---maintenance---integration is a bit-ch---and this bit-ch is a time consumer.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The USAF believes that it takes atleast 5 years to make a pilot a tier 1 pilot and as the Paf is based on the USAF structure---it is accepted that a Paf pilot would be falling in the similar category.
> 
> Which then brings about the fact that the 1st batch of Paf pilots may have been training on the J10's for longer than the anticipated 2 years time period.
> 
> Flying a modern aircraft is a tedious affair---flying a modern aircraft and being able to be number one is more than a tedious affair.
> 
> Just remember---part of integration is also having atleast 2.5 pilots per aircraft ready to go( that number is of the paf pilots per aircraft )---so the current batch may have 8-10 pilots ready for the 6 J10's in stock---but to get more aircraft---Paf needs more pilots--at least 90 to a 100 pilots for 2 sqdrn's of the J10's---.
> 
> Pilots---weapons---aesa radar---ew package---maintenance---integration is a bit-ch---and this bit-ch is a time consumer.


And, the Turkish engineers are circumventing this problem by introducing AI driven jet powered combat UAVs where pilot training isn't an issue! If you integrate different staffs for one UAV it means its done for all! All this because the common Turkish folks threw themselves in front of the tanks driven by the traitors to impose a Western hegemony over them....

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## Chak Bamu

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> And, the Turkish engineers are circumventing this problem by introducing AI driven jet powered combat UAVs where pilot training isn't an issue! If you integrate different staffs for one UAV it means its done for all! All this because the common Turkish folks threw themselves in front of the tanks driven by the traitors to impose a Western hegemony over them....


Well, those will come with their own issues. The nature of the business will not change. It still takes time to develop tactics & strategy after all the technical issues have been worked out.

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## araz

Chak Bamu said:


> Well, those will come with their own issues. The nature of the business will not change. It still takes time to develop tactics & strategy after all the technical issues have been worked out.


When we inducted the JFT @Mastan khan pointed out that induction and integration were 2 different issues and the time line for both was different. The fighter needs to undergo battle scenarios to assess its strengths and weaknesses and how to use it to its maximum advantage. This is what takes time. Based on this strategy is drawn for use of the fighter. Also it takes time for the fighter pilot to be confident enough to use the system in war against its enemies.
A
A


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## siegecrossbow

Chak Bamu said:


> Well, those will come with their own issues. The nature of the business will not change. It still takes time to develop tactics & strategy after all the technical issues have been worked out.



That's the thing with all new revolutionary technology though. For the next two decades I think that limitations in AI will mean that aerial combat drones will be relegated to harassment/reconnaissance roles, much like light cavalry in the past. This is not a diss against A.I. combat drones/loyal wingman type though. They will be a vital part of future air forces.

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## Readerdefence

Hi one thing I’m pretty much sure if PAF is advertising PL15 with these jets 2/3 years they already been trained to fire these towards the adversary with using AESA radar 
there is no point of flashing your card if you don’t know how to use it at the very first instance 
and I believe IAF with Rafale will do the same not putting the fighter in the shed same goes with PAF & there is always something first to try with as being only two main adversary between IAF & PAF until unless something happens you never know who so the best in using AESA first time in war like scenario 
rest assured PAF already been partnering with China for the sake of AESA & Pl15 scenario 
thank you

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## MastanKhan

araz said:


> When we inducted the JFT @Mastan khan pointed out that induction and integration were 2 different issues and the time line for both was different. The fighter needs to undergo battle scenarios to assess its strengths and weaknesses and how to use it to its maximum advantage. This is what takes time. Based on this strategy is drawn for use of the fighter. Also it takes time for the fighter pilot to be confident enough to use the system in war against its enemies.
> A
> A


Hi

JF 17 was our baby, and we had to nourish it and, teach it and make it ready for war. On top of that we had to train our crew from pilot to the ground crew and those on the assembly line and those involved in bringing about the ew package etc

But otoh. The J10, the aircraft is a battle ready and well integrated with weapons, most of which paf is familiar with and that reduces some aspects of induction/integration time.

It wont be as intensive as it was for the jf17, but pilot training and ground crew training will remain extremely strenuous for the J10's. That process and time does not change much.

And the most importantt thing that i forgot is the aesa radar, which brings totally new tactics to the air warfare.

Unlearn the non aesa radar tecniques and learn the aesa tactics.

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## SQ8

araz said:


> When we inducted the JFT @Mastan khan pointed out that induction and integration were 2 different issues and the time line for both was different. The fighter needs to undergo battle scenarios to assess its strengths and weaknesses and how to use it to its maximum advantage. This is what takes time. Based on this strategy is drawn for use of the fighter. Also it takes time for the fighter pilot to be confident enough to use the system in war against its enemies.
> A
> A


The simplistic way to look at it is that if today the ask is to take the delivered J-10s and use them in a conflict( fly & fight) that goal has already been met. The same way it was met with the JF-17 when it got IOC and around 2010.

However, if the goal is to use it in the MOST effective manner in terms of PAF’s existing and new tactics(impacted by the J-10s introduction) and other systems , be able to sustain its use in the most efficient manner, and be able to bring new pilots straight from Pakistani up to speed where they can use the platform to its 100% is going to take time.

The F-16s landed in 1983 and were flying CAPs within 6 months. They were focused A2A until much later when they worked A2G and with the Atlis pod for PGM. So the full potential of the system didn’t come out until much later even though they were in combat pretty early. 

The JF-17s were flying CAPs in 2010 but these were token tests to see performance. During this time issues were discovered, procedures perfected and so on.

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## Chak Bamu

araz said:


> When we inducted the JFT @Mastan khan pointed out that induction and integration were 2 different issues and the time line for both was different. The fighter needs to undergo battle scenarios to assess its strengths and weaknesses and how to use it to its maximum advantage. This is what takes time. Based on this strategy is drawn for use of the fighter. Also it takes time for the fighter pilot to be confident enough to use the system in war against its enemies.
> A
> A


Well I was speaking strictly about new technology (AI enabled UCAVs). There is an added complexity of development & validation of technology. That would be on top of the processes of training & integration.

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## araz

Chak Bamu said:


> Well I was speaking strictly about new technology (AI enabled UCAVs). There is an added complexity of development & validation of technology. That would be on top of the processes of training & integration.


Would you be able to elaborate on your post please. We can all learn from it.
Thanks in advance
A

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## Super Falcon

As we all know J 10 will be used as Agreesor it means they will go inside India to conduct strikes and number of J 10 will grow

And JF 17 also can be refueled mid air

Four IL 78 won't be much and Ukraine cannot supply us more due to war

Chinese Y 20U Tanker varients will be they best option as we can buy few transport of that class too


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## Trango Towers

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.
> View attachment 830634
> 
> ,.,.,..


Beautiful...I wouldn't want them coming at me. Good luck Indian dodgers



Super Falcon said:


> As we all know J 10 will be used as Agreesor it means they will go inside India to conduct strikes and number of J 10 will grow
> 
> And JF 17 also can be refueled mid air
> 
> Four IL 78 won't be much and Ukraine cannot supply us more due to war
> 
> Chinese Y 20U Tanker varients will be they best option as we can buy few transport of that class too


It's good India underestimate jf17s.


----------



## Chak Bamu

araz said:


> Would you be able to elaborate on your post please. We can all learn from it.
> Thanks in advance
> A


Sir, I really can not. In order for me to speak more, I would have to know substantially about the AI & UCAV technology & know of a case or two regarding their implementation. My comment was general in nature. Any new technology requires validation before it is made operative in the real world; and even then the data is closely analyzed to tweak it over time. This happens on top of all else that has to take place whenever new hardware is incorporated.

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## imranyounus

Can anyone update the numbers received. If we go by previous interior ministers we should have had 25 by 23 March.

Or is our internal politics have effected this deal too


----------



## CombatSurgeon

MastanKhan said:


> Hi
> 
> JF 17 was our baby, and we had to nourish it and, teach it and make it ready for war. On top of that we had to train our crew from pilot to the ground crew and those on the assembly line and those involved in bringing about the ew package etc
> 
> But otoh. The J10, the aircraft is a battle ready and well integrated with weapons, most of which paf is familiar with and that reduces some aspects of induction/integration time.
> 
> It wont be as intensive as it was for the jf17, but pilot training and ground crew training will remain extremely strenuous for the J10's. That process and time does not change much.
> 
> And the most importantt thing that i forgot is the aesa radar, which brings totally new tactics to the air warfare.
> 
> Unlearn the non aesa radar tecniques and learn the aesa tactics.


Very well said, sir. AESA brings with it a whole new world of possibilities. This sensor plus the fusion engine is a monster. Imagine the range at which you first pick up the bogies, the interleaving algorithms for multi-target tracking, the speed with which the tracks are established, sorted and prioritized, the instantaneous shift from track to fire against several hostiles and guidance support to several weapons in flight! The ‘first-look’, ‘first-shoot’ and ‘first-kill’ capability is tremendous. All this could be mind boggling. 
Similarly, the most one has to unlearn would be in the Gen 5 IR shot employment. Nothing classical survives now. No more pursuit curves to decide, no lead angle estimations, no nose pointing maneuvers. All gone away.

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## Maarkhoor

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) 
Did we get J-10 C with TVC?


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## SQ8

Maarkhoor said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> Did we get J-10 C with TVC?


NO


----------



## Maarkhoor

SQ8 said:


> NO


Opps i was expecting it love to see pugachev cobra maneuver, any idea why? since J-10 B have TVC engine.


----------



## Bratva

Maarkhoor said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> Did we get J-10 C with TVC?



Bhai app sattu pe ke Soye hoye thai kia? Jo J10 ki induction ceremony nahi dekhi?

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## Maarkhoor

Bratva said:


> Bhai app sattu pe ke Soye hoye thai kia? Jo J10 ki induction ceremony nahi dekhi?


No, Why we did not they consider TVC option?


----------



## Windjammer

Maarkhoor said:


> No, Why we did consider TVC option?


That was just an experimental example.

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## Abid123

ahtan_china said:


> the cost of a set J-10C is shipped to Paklstan:
> 40M US$( Rafale /240M US$)
> J-10C + AESA + 4X PL-15 + 2XPL-10 + 3X auxiliary tank
> 
> According to the practice of the international arms trade, it usually takes more than a year to pick up the new aircraft after the contract is signed, and sometimes even longer.
> PAF get the J-10C in short time. Good luck!
> 
> View attachment 823364
> 
> View attachment 823365
> 
> View attachment 823366
> 
> View attachment 823367
> View attachment 823368


J-10C is only 40 million USD?


----------



## White and Green with M/S

Maarkhoor said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> Did we get J-10 C with TVC?


 No PAF gets J-10C without TVC



Maarkhoor said:


> Opps i was expecting it love to see pugachev cobra maneuver, any idea why? since J-10 B have TVC engine.


What the purpose of cobra maneuver??? just showoff??



Maarkhoor said:


> No, Why we did not they consider TVC option?


TVS is more maintenance prone then standard engine

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## Yasser76

With HOBS missiles and HMS on pilots Cobra or similar manourvre not relevant anymore

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## arslank03

Abid123 said:


> J-10C is only 40 million USD?


no


----------



## MIRauf

White and Green with M/S said:


> No PAF gets J-10C without TVC
> 
> 
> What the purpose of cobra maneuver??? just showoff??
> 
> 
> TVS is more maintenance prone then standard engine


Thank you for your very good reply to the TVC question. So, should we say that we are good on TVC for about a month and then another would ask the same sometime in May ? oh the TVC obsession, where is Dieno ? pulling his hair out somewhere ?

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## Black Vigo

Bratva said:


> Bhai app sattu pe ke Soye hoye thai kia? Jo J10 ki induction ceremony nahi dekhi?


Lol this made me chuckle


----------



## Deino

Maarkhoor said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> Did we get J-10 C with TVC?




No!! No operational J-10C has this capability



Maarkhoor said:


> Opps i was expecting it love to see pugachev cobra maneuver, any idea why? since J-10 B have TVC engine.



And one again … NO operational J-10B has this. It is a one-off prototype/demonstrator and I really don‘t know why this is constantly up on the table again and why so many thing it‘s an operational capability?!

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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> No!! No operational J-10C has this capability
> 
> 
> 
> And one again … NO operational J-10B has this. It is a one-off prototype/demonstrator and I really don‘t know why this is constantly up on the table again and why so many thing it‘s an operational capability?!



Hi,

I am sure that by now you would have learnt once you have seen a 5th gen aircraft---with capable machine and engineering, a 5th gen aircraft could be designed and manufactured by any nation which desires such.

Why---5th gen aircraft---once seen---shows that the geometry of the aircraft is very limited.

In the case of the 4.5 gen aircraft where the geometry is infinite---th3 5th gen is totally opposite.

There are only so many angles in the fuselage---wings and tail that can be designed.

Now the difference between one design and the other would be the electronics---the material covering the skin.

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## syed_yusuf

Can we not have 5th gen avionics and technology in a 4.5 gen fighter ? 

Is j10cp or Rafael or f15ex fighter have those ?


----------



## PakFactor

syed_yusuf said:


> Can we not have 5th gen avionics and technology in a 4.5 gen fighter ?
> 
> Is j10cp or Rafael or f15ex fighter have those ?



If I’m not wrong the F-21 offered to India had 5th Gen DNA from F-35 so it’s a possibility.


----------



## araz

syed_yusuf said:


> Can we not have 5th gen avionics and technology in a 4.5 gen fighter ?
> 
> Is j10cp or Rafael or f15ex fighter have those ?


What else do you want on the J10C? Can you please elaborate. The answer to the first question is mostly yes but if you asked specifically one could have a discussion.
A


----------



## MastanKhan

syed_yusuf said:


> Can we not have 5th gen avionics and technology in a 4.5 gen fighter ?
> 
> Is j10cp or Rafael or f15ex fighter have those ?



Hi,

A 5th gen aircraft starts with a 4 / 4.5 gen avionics and technology to begin with.

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## White privilege

syed_yusuf said:


> Can we not have 5th gen avionics and technology in a 4.5 gen fighter ?
> 
> Is j10cp or Rafael or f15ex fighter have those ?


When we say B3 or J-10 having _J-20 DNA, _that's precisely what it means....


----------



## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am sure that by now you would have learnt once you have seen a 5th gen aircraft---with capable machine and engineering, a 5th gen aircraft could be designed and manufactured by any nation which desires such.
> 
> Why---5th gen aircraft---once seen---shows that the geometry of the aircraft is very limited.
> 
> In the case of the 4.5 gen aircraft where the geometry is infinite---th3 5th gen is totally opposite.
> 
> There are only so many angles in the fuselage---wings and tail that can be designed.
> 
> Now the difference between one design and the other would be the electronics---the material covering the skin.




You indeed funny  ... I post a comment correcting these constantly repeated questions, claims and wishes, if Pakistan or that Pakistan should get TVC-capabilities since it is in service already (which is plain wrong) and you again try to lecture some BS that "once you have seen a 5th gen aircraft..., a 5th gen aircraft could be designed and manufactured by any nation which desires such."   

Either I missed the irony or sarcasm, but you are correct and that's exactly the reason why so many "5th gen aircraft" are around, since every country could design and manufacture such a marvel simply since it "desires such"! Really interesting theory ... tell it to the Indians, it may also work in finalising development of a 4th generation type.

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## TOTUU

Deino said:


> tell it to the Indians, it may also work in finalising development of a 4th generation type.



India is progressing very fast, India has surpassed Russia in the Nature Index (research results in cutting-edge technology), and maybe India can really launch a 5th generation aircraft in the near future.

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## araz

Deino said:


> You indeed funny  ... I post a comment correcting these constantly repeated questions, claims and wishes, if Pakistan or that Pakistan should get TVC-capabilities since it is in service already (which is plain wrong) and you again try to lecture some BS that "once you have seen a 5th gen aircraft..., a 5th gen aircraft could be designed and manufactured by any nation which desires such."
> 
> Either I missed the irony or sarcasm, but you are correct and that's exactly the reason why so many "5th gen aircraft" are around, since every country could design and manufacture such a marvel simply since it "desires such"! Really interesting theory ... tell it to the Indians, it may also work in finalising development of a 4th generation type.


@Deino.
I dont know why you waste energy on answering someone who has nothing better to do than take cheap potshots at other posters. Please put yourself out of misery press the ignore button and move on.
A

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## ghazi52

.,.




,.,,.

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am very sure you will understand what I wrote to be correct, if not today then tommorow.
> 
> The nations who want to build will do so, most others will buy off the shelf..
> 
> As i stated one time, you do not have any engineering background, so you cannot understand the design concept of the 5th gen that how limited are variations in design and shape.
> 
> For simplicity, mathematically the 5th gen shape has very few physically different design options.




OMG only an idiot   can spin a connection between correcting a false claim of "TVC-engines being used on PAF J-10Cs" and lecturing us that "any nation with the desire can develop and build 5th generation fighters" and even more taking this as proof, I am stupid!

Honestly, you either should stop smoking that stuff  or better consult a doctor. In fact you are alone with your hubris and arrogance.

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This was not about tvc.
> 
> In one of your ignorant comments in the past, you had commented of no relation between the US F35 and the chinese J31 shape and form.
> 
> This comment was in retort to that even though on a different thread.
> 
> I had thought you would be sharp enough to remember, but i guess not.




Ahh, so you just had a memory flash that hurt so much your ego and even if neither this thread is about the J-35/F-35 not the post I replied to you had that irresistible feeling to bark and bite?

You really should consult a doctor!

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## araz

Reichmarshal said:


> Whats the point of having any or for that matter the best of the best military hardware, when u have sellouts and traitors sitting at the top.
> Dice would always be loaded n u will loose ever fight/conflict that u would ever enter.


I dont recall losing the last air skirmish that we had. IK may have been the PM but he was not flying those planes and manning our air defence. Let us get back on track. When it comes to guarding the frontiers of this nation NO ONE has done more than the Pak forces. So let us give credit where it is due. As to good and bad days, they come and go. We have seen the worst political turmoil and with bigger characters involved than the novices of today. Pakistan survived then and it will survive now InshaaAllah. Our very biased criticism of everything to do with Pak forces will demoralize the man on the borders. This cannot and must not be allowed to happen.
A

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## SQ8

*Folks, there is a section for Pakistani Siasat to dole out all your frustrations with the current situation in the country. Please don’t whine on random threads if you have nothing regarding the equipment or technical to add.*

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## ghazi52

.,.,




.,.,

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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer

New Kid on The Block.

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## Hassan Imtiaz

Windjammer said:


> New Kid on The Block.
> 
> View attachment 835886


Any update when we are going to get remaining birds?

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## White and Green with M/S

Hassan Imtiaz said:


> Any update when we are going to get remaining birds?


May be later this year just my 2 cent bro

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## Scorpiooo

White and Green with M/S said:


> May be later this year just my 2 cent bro


Or may be already Landed

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## araz

Scorpiooo said:


> Or may be already Landed


Next batch was expected around June time as per previous reports.
A

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## White and Green with M/S

Scorpiooo said:


> Or may be already Landed


not possible


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## python-000

White and Green with M/S said:


> not possible


Kindly noted here we are not talking about Amrica we are talking about CHINA the Best Friend of Pakistan...

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## White and Green with M/S

python-000 said:


> Kindly noted here we are not talking about Amrica we are talking about CHINA the Best Friend of Pakistan...


they have to induct J-10C in large number in PLAAF replacing F-7 F-8, then they will give it to Pakistan and I know China is best fired of Pakistan


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## ghazi52

Just to refresh information...
The first J-10 prototype #1001 in the Chinese Flight Test Establishment.







1996 - The first prototype ‘1001’ reportedly made its maiden flight but the design was not entirely successful.

In 1987 China obtained some technologies of the cancelled Israeli Aerospace Industries (IAI) Lavi (“Lion”) fighter. The Lavi development began in October 1982 under the help of the United States, and the aircraft made the first flight in December 1986. However, the U.S. was not prepared to finance an aircraft that would compete in export market with the F-16C/D and F/A/-18C/D, and a dispute arose to the final cost.

The Israeli Government was unable to finance the project along and the development programme was finally cancelled in 1987.

China was believed to have received the software originally developed for Lavi’s “fly-by-wire” control system shortly after its cancellation, despite denial of such cooperation by both sides.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## 伝説のネコ神様

I was actually quite surprised this deal went through, I always think J-10C is not most ideal candidate to suite PAF's need. PAF have tendency to prefer multi-role fighter, it is understandable decision due to their doctrine. In other hand J-10C despite having certain capability to preform ground assault and other duty, it is originally design as frontline Air Superiority fighter. I'm not sure it is due to PAF F16 unable to get upgrade package or because Indian's refale increasingly to possess threat. But I am happy this deal went through. Also I'm keen to see PAF provide more suggestion and idea to China to improve the product, after Z-10ME's history, I find Pakistan's suggestion on the product really helpful to china to make their product more mature.

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## araz

伝説のネコ神様 said:


> I was actually quite surprised this deal went through, I always think J-10C is not most ideal candidate to suite PAF's need. PAF have tendency to prefer multi-role fighter, it is understandable decision due to their doctrine. In other hand J-10C despite having certain capability to preform ground assault and other duty, it is originally design as frontline Air Superiority fighter. I'm not sure it is due to PAF F16 unable to get upgrade package or because Indian's refale increasingly to possess threat. But I am happy this deal went through. Also I'm keen to see PAF provide more suggestion and idea to China to improve the product, after Z-10ME's history, I find Pakistan's suggestion on the product really helpful to china to make their product more mature.


The threat the Rafale poses the uncertainty around US sanctions in case of hostilities, lack of upgrades to the F16s and inability to build up enough numbers of JFT rapidly enough to shore up numbers are all reasons for the J10C induction. These reasons in totality make a case for a J10 acquisition sound. As to Z10ME the PAA has given its input and our brothers have modified it. I do not know whether tests have been conducted for the newer 0latform and what the outcome is.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

伝説のネコ神様 said:


> I was actually quite surprised this deal went through, I always think J-10C is not most ideal candidate to suite PAF's need. PAF have tendency to prefer multi-role fighter, it is understandable decision due to their doctrine. In other hand J-10C despite having certain capability to preform ground assault and other duty, it is originally design as frontline Air Superiority fighter. I'm not sure it is due to PAF F16 unable to get upgrade package or because Indian's refale increasingly to possess threat. But I am happy this deal went through. Also I'm keen to see PAF provide more suggestion and idea to China to improve the product, after Z-10ME's history, I find Pakistan's suggestion on the product really helpful to china to make their product more mature.


The PAF will mainly use the J-10CE for air-to-air for the time being.

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## CSAW

_*歼-10 殲-10 Vigorous Dragon 猛龙*_
*J-10A & J-10C are different beasts.*






J-10A was designed & deployed as* High Speed A2A Interceptor - Air Superiority Fighter* as a replacement to long-term solution for the PLAAF’s legacy J-7 and J-6 interceptors and Q-5 attackers, all of which are derived from Soviet designs from the 1950s.

_"Way back about 40 years ago In 1981, PLAAF Commander Tingfa Zhang gave formal proposal of a third-generation fighter with modern technologies instead of MiG-15 / 19 / 21 tech._ This proposal went ahead but with one major departure from the previous methodologies -The approved supplier will now be responsible in working directly with the customer demands ; which basically allowed the PLAAF to communicate its precise requirements and ensure they were met; Whereas in previous development projects - The suppliers were responsible to their " Management agency", which sometimes produce products that 100% failed to meet end user requirements."





_When the J-10 fighter was being developed, it was built to serve as an air-superiority fighter to counter to Soviet fighter jets. However, the collapse of the Soviet Union altered China’s threat assessments and subsequently, the J-10 evolved.

The development & deployment of Mach 2.2 Delta Dasher " Vigorous Dragon J-10A " as Air Superiority Fighter was as per requirements of PLAAF - They had other options available for A2G Duties._











_ A ‘ Tail-less design with canard fore-planes with a swept - back vertical tail & the Pure Delta Wing’"gives the J-10 Stability even at low speed for ground attack. Delta winged platforms are known for carrying BIG payloads [our own Old Delta Mirage for one] - 






Hence it was more of the Customer PLAAF requirement forcing it to A2A , rather taking anything away from the capability available in the airframe . 






J-10C is an altogether different Fighter jet to its 'A model ', with Engineering modifications, Space considerations and provisions kept available to incorporate all the evolution & advancements of future 20 - 40 years - Be it The Multi role capabilities._






*"....J-10B, features a host of improvements ; The 1035 prototype of the J-10B first flew in December 2008 and entered service in 2014. In late 2017, J-10B prototype serial 1034 made its first flight with a TVC nozzle equipped variant of the domestic WS-10 engine. Slightly less than one year later, on day one of Zhuhai 2018, serial 1034 was among the first aircraft performances of the morning.




*

*The most immediately apparent modification is the addition of a diverter-less supersonic inlet, which should help to reduce the aircraft’s radar cross section while reducing weight and complexity—but at the price of some degraded high speed performance. The J-10B incorporates an infrared search and track (IRST) with an added laser rangefinder plus an indigenous passive electronically scanned array (PESA) fire-control radar that is allegedly capable of engaging 4 targets simultaneously. It also incorporates a much more capable electronic warfare and countermeasures (EW/ECM) suite."*

—Zhang Jigao Deputy Cjief Designer for J - 10 Jets.

During the transformation from A version to C version , PLAAF had its other options for A2A maturing such as Chinese upgraded Flanker Variants or Premium Killer J-20 - Hence the Multi role capabilities of J-10C also became better and effective. The current *KLJ-10A Type 14-XX AESA Radar* with >1200 T-R Modules has SAR Capabilities - *GDJ-5 twin munition adapter* makes a big difference.
















=================================

_Regarding the induction in PAF - A future iteration of F-16 or a maximum upgrade to Viper Standards [with SLEP] incorporating Latest Radars, Pods, AIM-120 C7 / AIM-9X etc as much as possible would have been the most logical solution . Reasons being_
_-Logistical, Storage, Training, Spares, Munitions costs already incurred up to a major extent
-Known Capabilities and Ready deployment Playbook in Package formation
-Utilization of Coalition Support Fund
-Western Capabilities/ Hardware and opportunities to jointly train with European Operators learning practicing those skills._
_-Diversified Portfolio of Sources in Procurement_






*But then their were huge Road Blocks , such as :*

_-End User Agreements restricting the deployment
-Non Availability of certain capabilities or being capped such as S.E.A.D or HARM / IRST / SOW / Anti Ship to name a few.
-All future upgrades & weapons integration limited / restricted due to requirement of manufacturer Source codes
-Sanctions & Threats to block spares_
_-Geo Political situation






================================
"....Pakistan reportedly first showed interest in the J-10 in 2006, and the first iterations of the fighters date back to 1988 when China’s Chengdu Aircraft Corporation built the first model. While Pakistan’s Full Spectrum Deterrence posture has often been seen in light of its nuclear component—meant to deter an Indian conventional attack—Pakistan has also worked to respond to any major Indian military acquisition and deny air-superiority. With this in purview, Pakistan’s acquisition of the J-10 fighter conforms to the same logic of Pakistan’s denial of comprehensive advantage to India...."_

PAF was "Actively" looking at the J-10 development program for atleast > 15 years ; Unofficial reports claim PAF providing 'key insights and feedback' on basis of its long term experience of using F-16s and hence the deal was always on the cards.The considerably lower cost of induction / operation vs any European / Western Platform and a certain flexibility to induct SOW / SEAD / HARM / Anti ship etc of Choice with permission of China due to strategic partnership was always a key benefit.

For the last decade , there are NO major announcements or 'formal news channels' from Pakistan Military about its inductions and it takes many years or leaks or educated guess work to pinpoint the options being marked for future [VT-4, HQ-9 etc being examples]. J-10 was on the cards...






There are lots of present & future operational benefits.


_The opportunity to scale numbers quickly from China _
_No Strings attached_
_Availability to access the future Munitions / Electronics upgrade available from China _
_Leverage the future Chinese systems [ since PAF would be using its Primer current Multi role] ._

==================================

*Strategic factors also contribute -- J-10 fighter deal also strengthens the ever-growing strategic partnership between Pakistan and China, its largest defense partner. According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) from 2016 to 2020, 38% of China’s total arms exports went to Pakistan, and military aviation was an important part of it.

#Inter-operatability concept is a key factor when we consider HQ-9, VT-4,Naval Assets etc and J-10C in that respect.*











================================

The availability of Efficient mature Chinese power plant with improved MTBF / MTTR compared to when it was in its initial stages and matured second generation of Chinese AESA were the defining factors.






Given the sweeping impact of today’s technology, ‘Air power’ has unquestionably taken a position of dominance in changing the very nature of warfare.

Hence, any nation that aspires to enhance its influence beyond its frontiers; Ought to have an advanced, capable, strong and a viable Air Force.Air Superiority or air dominance will remain the main mission of air power, although UAVs, UCAVs, Stand - off Weapons, Satellites, and Cruise Missiles may be increasingly employed to reinforce the manned aircraft and the missiles.

So that's How PAF would likely foresee J-10CP -Initially in Package as *Air Superiority fighter jet [Offensive Option]* with *F-16 Block 52s [ Defensive Offense ] *and *JF-17 Thunder Block III equipped with SOW / PL-15*s as and when situation demands. JF-17 Thunders are serving PAF by providing adequate Multi Role capabilities for the time being.

The long range stick capability would put the opposing fighters in defensive position and certainly things have changed for the good since the Kargil scenario.

J-10C fared well in limited exercises it was put into operation.

http://defensepoliticsasia.com/exer...j11-34-42-thai-gripen-full-translated-report/

Pakistan's eastern neighbors would thrash the induction tagging it UnProven - going to an extent of calling it Chinese trash and calling Rafale as God's creation. This is the same rhetoric heard about "Raptor of the east", till the myth was busted in Swift Retort.The current performance of Russian Flankers in Ukraine war has exposed whatever was left in that bubble.

The Super Thunder III - J-10CP Combo in packaged formation with Airborne / Ground EW & AEW&C Assets, Training and effective deployment strategies is a Capability which has created new set of headaches.






PAF has a history of working out the max application of a Platform to its advantage - meaning if there is some modification work required to Tune wire or panel or attachment or fixture etc to hang the A2G munitions in more effective manner , so be it -- that could be achieved with the assistance of Chinese engineers.






The numbers quoted initially such as 25 or 36 should NOT be counted as final quantity ; The units would certainly grow considering PAF doesn't go for less than 80 -90 platforms when it inducts a new platform and invests on it.






The Pakistani nation could see "New Delta J-10C/P " transforms as a FORCE Multiplier for PAF when numbers increase until Something 'new comes in'.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## MastanKhan

伝説のネコ神様 said:


> I was actually quite surprised this deal went through, I always think J-10C is not most ideal candidate to suite PAF's need. PAF have tendency to prefer multi-role fighter, it is understandable decision due to their doctrine. In other hand J-10C despite having certain capability to preform ground assault and other duty, it is originally design as frontline Air Superiority fighter. I'm not sure it is due to PAF F16 unable to get upgrade package or because Indian's refale increasingly to possess threat. But I am happy this deal went through. Also I'm keen to see PAF provide more suggestion and idea to China to improve the product, after Z-10ME's history, I find Pakistan's suggestion on the product really helpful to china to make their product more mature.



Hi,

Thank you for your post.

Actually there was a much greater input in the J10 project than the Z10ME---and they never disclosed what it was due to obvious reason.

And you may say that where the J10C is today---a lots of it is due to some helpful assets sharing their knowledge.

Now why the "air superiority" role aircraft---. See---the Paf has reached a certain plateau with the induction of the JF17 and its multirole strike capabilities.

Once that threshold had been crossed---the next step was obviously the air superiority---a dedicated fighter pilot group and aircraft whose primary role was air superiority.

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## Hassan Imtiaz

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> View attachment 837152


Wish to see them grow in numbers & armed to the teeth insha Allah.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## Abid123

Go for 100 J-10C's. Anything less does not make sense.

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## araz

Abid123 said:


> Go for 100 J-10C's. Anything less does not make sense.


Kaka 
These are millions of dollars worth machines. Where do you propose we get the money from when we cannot pay off earlier debts and are asking them to reschedule them. PAF will assess the needs and decide once it has developed a doctrine for them decide the numbers it wants.
A

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## Windjammer



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## Zarvan

araz said:


> Kaka
> These are millions of dollars worth machines. Where do you propose we get the money from when we cannot pay off earlier debts and are asking them to reschedule them. PAF will assess the needs and decide once it has developed a doctrine for them decide the numbers it wants.
> A


From where we got to order them in first place. Also Type 54 A, Milgem, 8 submarines, VT 4 and dozens of other such weapons

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## araz

Zarvan said:


> From where we got to order them in first place. Also Type 54 A, Milgem, 8 submarines, VT 4 and dozens of other such weapons


Yara Zarvan .
And why do you think we are in the shitstorm financially? We have played beyond our league and pay scale. Invited foreigners to wage war on our land for money. Wbere has that landed us? Why do we want to fight India? Over Kashmir? My dear tbe very same youth which was against India will be against Pakistan. They want independence and neither Pak nor India wa ts them independent for various reasons. 
There will be a no holds barred fierce contest over in 1-2 days i case of war with nothing left of Pakistan and nothing worth supporting in India. This is the true reality we face. 
But any sane person who thinks the top heavy forces need to be trimmed down is a traitor.
We need to have a deterrent defence but lets face it nothing that we have will-empower us to take the fight to India even in Kashmir..
But then everyone is badshah. Buy this and then buy that. Most of what you buy is dead investment which will probably never see any action in its-working life.
A

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## johncliu88

araz said:


> Kaka
> These are millions of dollars worth machines. Where do you propose we get the money from when we cannot pay off earlier debts and are asking them to reschedule them. PAF will assess the needs and decide once it has developed a doctrine for them decide the numbers it wants.
> A


The quickest way to get money is to sell more JF-17 B3 jets. In order to do so, Pak needs to find more new customers like Iraq, Argentina, and etc.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,
J-10CE Ready For Mission.

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## Chak Bamu

Trango Towers said:


> When the very institutions become the enemy of the state then what?


Then check your assumptions to see if these align with the Constitution & law or not. Then decide who is the enemy & who is not.

Institutions are larger than individuals, even when these individuals making bad decisions happen to be in leadership positions of the said institutions.

Pakistan being a very young country in its present iteration has little history to look back too. That is one of the reasons why we have little patience & near-zero introspection. Most things happen for the first time, it seems. Even when patterns repeat themselves, lack of knowledge & distorted perspectives mean that most do not see them as repeats.

Even when a mistake is realized, institutional interests do not allow a course correction. For course correction would mean admission that something went wrong somewhere; but fragile egos of little people in high offices bar even discussions. Case in point would be Kargil fiasco. Any critical discussion that did take place, happened after Mushy was gone.

So, whenever you are down, just tell yourself that "this too shall pass".

Sorry for the OT folks.

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## SQ8

All off topic posts deleted - further political posts in threads related to equipment will lead to thread band.

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## White privilege

SQ8 said:


> All off topic posts deleted - further political posts in threads related to equipment will lead to thread band.


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## White privilege

PDF can really predict the future...😄😁









j-10_paf_braz_5_cr


J-10 in Pakistani Colours



defence.pk

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## m52k85

White privilege said:


> PDF can really predict the future...😄😁
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> j-10_paf_braz_5_cr
> 
> 
> J-10 in Pakistani Colours
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk


More like PDF has a prediction ready for any and all courses the future can take

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## ghazi52

Pair in action..

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## TOTUU

White privilege said:


> PDF can really predict the future...😄😁
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> j-10_paf_braz_5_cr
> 
> 
> J-10 in Pakistani Colours
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk



*I found this picture in the page you gave, is this a real plane or CG?*

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## White and Green with M/S

TOTUU said:


> *I found this picture in the page you gave, is this a real plane or CG?*
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 838545


Stick to the topic please, This not J-10 thread but PAF J-10C THREAD


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## White privilege

TOTUU said:


> *I found this picture in the page you gave, is this a real plane or CG?*
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 838545


Probably CG.


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## White and Green with M/S

White privilege said:


> Probably CG.


No it is real pic of early J-10


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## White privilege

White and Green with M/S said:


> No it is real pic of early J-10


It's _boasting _clearly fake looking CFT and a chin mounted pod, while the aircraft alongside has got nothing of the sort.

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## White and Green with M/S

White privilege said:


> It's _boasting _clearly fake looking CFT and a chin mounted pod, while the aircraft alongside has got nothing of the sort.


oh my bad sorry I didn't notice CFT/Chin pod


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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,,.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## chinasun



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## Deino

TOTUU said:


> *I found this picture in the page you gave, is this a real plane or CG?*
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 838545




In fact it is indeed a real plane - namely the well-known no. 01 prototype - but THIS image is heavily faked: The targeting pod is wrong as are the LGBs and the biggest fake is the CFT!

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,
Ready

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## Hassan Imtiaz

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> Ready
> 
> View attachment 841737


these count to 7..


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## araz

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> Ready
> 
> View attachment 841737


Is this the next batch in China?


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## Dazzler

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> Ready
> 
> View attachment 841737


Not PAF birds.


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## White privilege

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> Ready
> 
> View attachment 841737


Is this PAC Kamra?? Sheds alongside look similar to those at Kamra....


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## iLION12345_1

White privilege said:


> Is this PAC Kamra?? Sheds alongside look similar to those at Kamra....


No. Chinese, look closely. They have the usual Low-vis markings.

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## Raja420

chinasun said:


> View attachment 840303



So Pakistan has acquired the j10? If yes how many? How does it compare to the rafale aircraft? I don't know much about airplanes.


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## Bossman

Raja420 said:


> So Pakistan has acquired the j10? If yes how many? How does it compare to the rafale aircraft? I don't know much about airplanes.


Go do some research on Bharat Rakshit

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## TOTUU

Raja420 said:


> So Pakistan has acquired the j10? If yes how many? How does it compare to the rafale aircraft? I don't know much about airplanes.



The shape of the aircraft will determine the performance of the aircraft. The smaller the nose of the aircraft, the less drag; the larger the nose, the larger the radar, the greater the detection distance, and the RCS. The larger the wings of the aircraft, the greater the lift, the further it can save fuel and fly, but the speed will be slower; the smaller the wings of the aircraft, the less lift, the faster it will consume fuel, but the speed will be faster.

The JF17 and J10 are designed to be combat oriented and the Rafale to be multipurpose.












































After looking at the shape, then look at the aero-engines, avionics, weapons. 

The graph below shows the world's Nature Index ranking, which reflects the overall science and technology situation. Avionics, radar and aero-engines France is still very strong.

By 2030, let's take another look at the Nature Index rankings. The West's lead will be smaller and smaller.

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## Thorough Pro

Then do what you have some knowledge about



Raja420 said:


> So Pakistan has acquired the j10? If yes how many? How does it compare to the rafale aircraft? I don't know much about airplanes.


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## Taimur Khurram

Good. Now shoot down a Rafale.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.

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## air marshal



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## Deino

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> Ready
> 
> View attachment 841737





araz said:


> Is this the next batch in China?





White privilege said:


> Is this PAC Kamra?? Sheds alongside look similar to those at Kamra....



Please … just look at the colour, their markings and serial numbers, they are CLEARLY NOT for Pakistan, these are regular PLAAF ones from the 34th Air Brigade.

And no, it is NOT PAC Kamra, but CAC

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## araz

Deino said:


> Please … just look at the colour, their markings and serial numbers, they are CLEARLY NOT for Pakistan, these are regular PLAAF ones from the 34th Air Brigade.
> 
> And no, it is NOT PAC Kamra, but CAC


Sorry @Deino.
I had a really hurried look and thought this was the next batch for PAF. I was clearly wrong.
Regards
A

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## imranyounus

More than 2 months but still nothing apart from initial batch. It's more surprising when we look at the public statements of previous interior ministers of having acquired at least 36 aircraft till 23rd March.


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## Deino

imranyounus said:


> More than 2 months but still nothing apart from initial batch. It's more surprising when we look at the public statements of previous interior ministers of having acquired at least 36 aircraft till 23rd March.




I think he never said there will be "least 36 aircraft till 23rd March!"


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## NA71

Guess the plane

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## WaqarAhmed161247

Deino said:


> I think he never said there will be "least 36 aircraft till 23rd March!"


sheikh Rasheed said 25 are reaching pakistan up to march2022.May be already landed in mother land?


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## Sinnerman108

TOTUU said:


> The shape of the aircraft will determine the performance of the aircraft. The smaller the nose of the aircraft, the less drag; the larger the nose, the larger the radar, the greater the detection distance, and the RCS. The larger the wings of the aircraft, the greater the lift, the further it can save fuel and fly, but the speed will be slower; the smaller the wings of the aircraft, the less lift, the faster it will consume fuel, but the speed will be faster.
> 
> The JF17 and J10 are designed to be combat oriented and the Rafale to be multipurpose.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 842849
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 842852
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 842857
> 
> 
> View attachment 842860
> 
> 
> View attachment 842861
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 842862
> 
> 
> View attachment 842863
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After looking at the shape, then look at the aero-engines, avionics, weapons.
> 
> The graph below shows the world's Nature Index ranking, which reflects the overall science and technology situation. Avionics, radar and aero-engines France is still very strong.
> 
> By 2030, let's take another look at the Nature Index rankings. The West's lead will be smaller and smaller.
> 
> 
> View attachment 842878



Drag appears all over the airplane. 
Nose shape is not where we worry about drag, 
We worry more about the tran-sonic and super sonic characteristics when deciding the shape of the nose; 
then the radar type and it's associated equipment decides the shape of the nose. 

There are plenty more surfaces that contribute to a lot more drag else where to worry about.


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## siegecrossbow

NA71 said:


> Guess the plane
> 
> View attachment 844506



XB-70 Valkeryie.

P.S. I'm kidding. Valkleyrie has twin vertical slabs.


----------



## NA71

siegecrossbow said:


> XB-70 Valkeryie.
> 
> P.S. I'm kidding. Valkleyrie has twin vertical slabs.


I posted the name of this plane but post was axed by some one.


----------



## Salza

Its 


imranyounus said:


> More than 2 months but still nothing apart from initial batch. It's more surprising when we look at the public statements of previous interior ministers of having acquired at least 36 aircraft till 23rd March.


Lol it's nothing surprising infact right things have started happening now as paf pilots are sharpening their skills on the planes quietly. 

Induction ceremony and 23rd March is over, it was time to take out media attention from the planes and let paf pilots and support staff focus on these birds more so that they can be fully integrated into our doctrine asap. You will see lesser pictures and news about the planes moving forward. When next batch will arrive, there will be few pictures leaked here and there and that's about it.


----------



## Flight of falcon

First no J20 purchased 
Then we need pictures proof
Now we only saw six
We need to be able to count 24

Make Indian intelligence (or lack there of ) services job easier.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## maverick1977

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 844578




What is it carrying ? PL12 and PL15 ? along with ECM pod close to chin ?


----------



## siegecrossbow

maverick1977 said:


> What is it carrying ? PL12 and PL15 ? along with ECM pod close to chin ?



PL-12/PL-8 training round. This might be a J-10B.

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## Clutch

Salza said:


> When next batch will arrive, there will be few pictures leaked here and there and that's about it.



I doubt there will be a next batch. I believe the geopolitics of Pakistan are fast changing. Chinese have realized Pakistan is not the reliable partner they once thought it was. Chinese assets are a security risk by having them in Pakistan i.e. for Americans to dissect and design against.

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## johncliu88

Clutch said:


> I doubt there will be a next batch. I believe the geopolitics of Pakistan are fast changing. Chinese have realized Pakistan is not the reliable partner they once thought it was. Chinese assets are a security risk by having them in Pakistan i.e. for Americans to dissect and design against.


Well, the sales contract was signed by both side so the remaining 19 J-10's will be delivered in a scheduled time frame. And on the politic side, regardless who is the president of Pak, there is always a big treat right next to the border, right?

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## Flight of falcon

Clutch said:


> I doubt there will be a next batch. I believe the geopolitics of Pakistan are fast changing. Chinese have realized Pakistan is not the reliable partner they once thought it was. Chinese assets are a security risk by having them in Pakistan i.e. for Americans to dissect and design against.




Best chuti…..analysis of the century…

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## Clutch

Flight of falcon said:


> Best chuti…..analysis of the century…


Watch and see. Pakistani are experts at burning their bridges and stabbing themselves in the foot. 

The era of Chinese weapons system is fast coming to an end.

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## syed_yusuf

My personal view 

With change in order and change in Pakistan stance. Coupled with economic meltdown... China is at best delaying the delivery of rest of 30 examples

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## MastanKhan

syed_yusuf said:


> My personal view
> 
> With change in order and change in Pakistan stance. Coupled with economic meltdown... China is at best delaying the delivery of rest of 30 examples



Hi,

That is not the case. These aircraft have to be integrated and another two batches of pilots trained.

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## Ghessan

they are coming in due course. there is no such thing as delay due to whatever is said above.

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## Cool_Soldier

They are coming as per scheduled delivery plan.

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## ali_raza

Cool_Soldier said:


> They are coming as per scheduled delivery plan.


delivered?


----------



## syed_yusuf

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is not the case. These aircraft have to be integrated and another two batches of pilots trained.


I sincerely hope so


----------



## Readerdefence

Hi once again a mistrust of Chinese weapon not delivering on time I don’t understand our most learned members with a ton of posts under their belt underestimate the power of Pakistan defence forces 
as if we go through the history of purchasing weapons SAY is always from the concerned armed forces branch what to buy and how much to buy 
IK and before NS or zardari all are just a face savers to pay money and thumb their chest ohhh we bought this we bring this even Agosta sub its been picked up by PN commission or no commission that’s part & parcel 
so if we go by bad economy then we shouldn’t be expecting another ship for navy soon from China 
thank you


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*For those who missed these awesome videos.*

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## dbc

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 844574


US MAN in the J-10..

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## Gripen9

dbc said:


> US MAN in the J-10..


I call my cousin US Man


----------



## White and Green with M/S

dbc said:


> US MAN in the J-10..


Why you think that? Its not American pilot in j10 BUT PAF PILOT ON THAT PICTURE


----------



## Luosifen

White and Green with M/S said:


> Why you think that? Its not American pilot in j10 BUT PAF PILOT ON THAT PICTURE


Think he was referring to the pilot's name tag. In any case we will see next month how many more J-10s are coming.


----------



## Avicenna

White and Green with M/S said:


> Why you think that? Its not American pilot in j10 BUT PAF PILOT ON THAT PICTURE



Usman.

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## siegecrossbow

White and Green with M/S said:


> Why you think that? Its not American pilot in j10 BUT PAF PILOT ON THAT PICTURE



He is in F-16 escorting J-10C.


----------



## White and Green with M/S

siegecrossbow said:


> He is in F-16 escorting J-10C.


Sir look of the above post of @dbc he clearly said US MAN IN J-10C NOT IN F-16


----------



## dbc

siegecrossbow said:


> He is in F-16 escorting J-10C.



nice catch that is an F-16 indeed..


----------



## White and Green with M/S

dbc said:


> nice catch that is an F-16 indeed..


And what he doing is that PAF's F-16 or USAF's F-16 escorting J-10C if this was a USAF's F-16 than why USAF's F-16 escorting J-10C and where


----------



## dbc

White and Green with M/S said:


> And what he doing is that PAF's F-16 or USAF's F-16 escorting J-10C if this was a USAF's F-16 than why USAF's F-16 escorting J-10C and where



its a PAF F-16 escorting a PAF J-10

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## MastanKhan

dbc said:


> US MAN in the J-10..



Hi,

You got me there for a moment---I had to look at it a couple of times.

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## Ghessan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You got me there for a moment---I had to look at it a couple of times.



it took me to:  what the hell...

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Cool_Soldier

I cant see serial number clearly in above picture. Is it previous badge Dragon or New Upcoming unit?


----------



## War Historian

Clutch said:


> I doubt there will be a next batch. I believe the geopolitics of Pakistan are fast changing. Chinese have realized Pakistan is not the reliable partner they once thought it was. Chinese assets are a security risk by having them in Pakistan i.e. for Americans to dissect and design against.


Chinese had only one reliable strategic partner in last 70 years. That Pakistan, so they don't think from pti mindset. They had, they have and they would continue this strategic partnership with state of Pakistan and Pakistan armed forces. In 90s when pro american Benazir was in power, they had more concerns. but still in that period , they had supplied M-11 surface to surface missile to Pakistan armed forces for strategic launch of nuclear weapons. 

So please don't bring neighbors into internal issues, keep those power rift issue inside the home. Thanks


----------



## WotTen

Clutch said:


> Watch and see. Pakistani are experts at burning their bridges and stabbing themselves in the foot.
> 
> The era of Chinese weapons system is fast coming to an end.



If I was the Chinese military, I would install a few hidden cameras and transmit pix to satellites to see who is poking around in the Pakistani J-10C.

The Americans have probably done the same to the F-16s.



War Historian said:


> Chinese had only one reliable strategic partner in last 70 years. That Pakistan, so they don't think from pti mindset. They had, they have and they would continue this strategic partnership with state of Pakistan and Pakistan armed forces. In 90s when pro american Benazir was in power, they had more concerns. but still in that period , they had supplied M-11 surface to surface missile to Pakistan armed forces for strategic launch of nuclear weapons.
> 
> So please don't bring neighbors into internal issues, keep those power rift issue inside the home. Thanks



Partnerships are a two-way affair and are based on reality, not wishful thinking. Given recent events, nobody would trust Pak military or civilian leadership. Everything is for sale.


----------



## Deino

Cool_Soldier said:


> I cant see serial number clearly in above picture. Is it previous badge Dragon or New Upcoming unit?




In fact just an old image re-posted again!

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## War Historian

WotTen said:


> If I was the Chinese military, I would install a few hidden cameras and transmit pix to satellites to see who is poking around in the Pakistani J-10C.
> 
> The Americans have probably done the same to the F-16s.
> 
> 
> 
> Partnerships are a two-way affair and are based on reality, not wishful thinking. Given recent events, nobody would trust Pak military or civilian leadership. Everything is for sale.


Sir, very soon the matter would be crystal clear.


----------



## Clutch

WotTen said:


> If I was the Chinese military, I would install a few hidden cameras and transmit pix to satellites to see who is poking around in the Pakistani J-10C.



The Americans just need their low level secretary to write a "letter" to the Pakistani COAS and Airforce Chief and they will wet their pants and give full access. So yes, China should be very concerned, it's technology (in this case the J-10) is vulnerable when in Pakistan's establishment's hands...



War Historian said:


> Chinese had only one reliable strategic partner in last 70 years. That Pakistan, so they don't think from pti mindset. They had, they have and they would continue this strategic partnership with state of Pakistan and Pakistan armed forces. In 90s when pro american Benazir was in power, they had more concerns. but still in that period , they had supplied M-11 surface to surface missile to Pakistan armed forces for strategic launch of nuclear weapons.
> 
> So please don't bring neighbors into internal issues, keep those power rift issue inside the home. Thanks



A nation that allows another nation to drone bomb and kill its own people without due process... It's all that reliable... I would argue.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*



*

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## WotTen

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just like Australia sold itself to the US.
> 
> And how about australian forces murdering executing innocent afghans---/
> 
> Let me re-phrase it---how about Christian australian special forces availing the opportunity to execute and murder muslim afghans. What did the muslim afghans do to christian australians to be slaughtered, raped and molested by christian australian force in afg.



We just had a federal election in Australia yesterday and Labor won easily. Actually, both Liberals and Labor lost % votes, but there was a massive shift to the Greens and Independents, both of whom advocate an independent foreign policy for Australia.

It won't mean a pro-China policy -- the Murdoch-dominated media has shifted the entire landscape to pro-US, anti-China, anti-Muslim narrative -- but they will be less subservient to America than the Liberals.

At least that's the hope...

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## Beast

WotTen said:


> We just had a federal election in Australia yesterday and Labor won easily. Actually, both Liberals and Labor lost % votes, but there was a massive shift to the Greens and Independents, both of whom advocate an independent foreign policy for Australia.
> 
> It won't mean a pro-China policy -- the Murdoch-dominated media has shifted the entire landscape to pro-US, anti-China, anti-Muslim narrative -- but they will be less subservient to America than the Liberals.
> 
> At least that's the hope...


I agree , Australian for Australia and not serving other nation interest. Australia need to do things according to interest of Australia.

Morrison China threat and pushing all blame to China will not work. Australian are no idiot to know where the problem lies.

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## _NOBODY_

Beast said:


> I agree , Australian for Australia and not serving other nation interest. Australia need to do things according to interest of Australia.
> 
> Morrison China threat and pushing all blame to China will not work. Australian are no idiot to know where the problem lies.


Morrison was beyond incompetent, I still find it hard to believe that educated people like Australians decided to elect a clown like him.

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## Deino

Was this already posted?

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## NA71

Clutch said:


> Watch and see. Pakistani are experts at burning their bridges and stabbing themselves in the foot.
> 
> The era of Chinese weapons system is fast coming to an end.


elite member


----------



## White privilege

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 844574


How common is this _gloveless flying _in PAF?? Can junior pilots also choose to fly like this while training???


----------



## PanzerKiel

White privilege said:


> How common is this _gloveless flying _in PAF?? Can junior pilots also choose to fly like this while training???


Its against SOPs though. A pilot's gloves are generally made of nomex, a fire resistant fabric. The primary reason for wearing them is to protect the pilot's hands in the event of fire in the cockpit. It offers protection and is a part of the military aviation tradition.

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## White privilege

PanzerKiel said:


> Its against SOPs though. A pilot's gloves are generally made of nomex, a fire resistant fabric. The primary reason for wearing them is to protect the pilot's hands in the event of fire in the cockpit. It offers protection and is a part of the military aviation tradition.


May be better fire retardant systems inside the cockpit nowadays mean pilots can afford this luxury now?? It is a Squadron commander doing this for the camera so may be rules are relaxed....


----------



## PanzerKiel

White privilege said:


> May be better fire retardant systems inside the cockpit nowadays mean pilots can afford this luxury now?? It is a Squadron commander doing this for the camera so may be rules are relaxed....


NOt that good, in case there is some hydraulic or fuel leakage, that liquid can burn your skin....i know some specific PAF squadrons where this SOP is followed in true spirt....rather imposed....

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## White privilege

PanzerKiel said:


> NOt that good, in case there is some hydraulic or fuel leakage, that liquid can burn your skin....i know some specific PAF squadrons where this SOP is followed in true spirt....rather imposed....


Do squadrons get/loose points for following/ignoring these safety protocols?? Does this culminate in like a competition or _safety trophy 🏆_ ??


----------



## PanzerKiel

White privilege said:


> Do squadrons get/loose points for following/ignoring these safety protocols?? Does this culminate in like a competition or _safety trophy 🏆_ ??


A 'report' or 'occurence' is always initiated in case of such violations and goes up the chain.....pilots are even grounded for life or demoted (F-16 to F-7 etc).

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## GriffinsRule

Seen pictures of pilots having cut off the glove tips for better feeling of the HOTAS in European air forces


----------



## MastanKhan

White privilege said:


> How common is this _gloveless flying _in PAF?? Can junior pilots also choose to fly like this while training???



Hi,

In the US it is called---" I DON'T CARE---I DON'T GIVE SH-IT" attitude.

A shameless show of indiscipline.

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## MastanKhan

White privilege said:


> Do squadrons get/loose points for following/ignoring these safety protocols?? Does this culminate in like a competition or _safety trophy 🏆_ ??



Hi,

This pilot is committing a cardinal flight sin. If he has to eject on these frozen mountains, there is no chance for his survival at all.

because by the time he lands on the snowy mountain after ejection ---his hand upto his arm would be frozen and would break like a twig as he hits the ground.

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## Abid123

How many combat squadrons does PAF operate?


----------



## johncliu88

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In the US it is called---" I DON'T CARE---I DON'T GIVE SH-IT" attitude.
> 
> A shameless show of indiscipline.


The young people in US watched too much movies like Rambo, still have the mind set of the cowboys age.


----------



## Windjammer



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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 848472


Hi Windjammer

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> Hi Windjammer


Hi Sir, been a long time. Hope you are doing good.

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## Super Falcon

If India get these F 18 Maverick they pose a major threat to our airforce and naval bases and they can carry direct land based operation on our soil so we need to plan on them also

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Hi Sir, been a long time. Hope you are doing good.


As well as can be expected

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## Two banks of the River

Super Falcon said:


> If India get these F 18 Maverick they pose a major threat to our airforce and naval bases and they can carry direct land based operation on our soil so we need to plan on them also


The 26 Rafale M/F18SH will be based off from Vizag.


----------



## MastanKhan

mao ze tung said:


> do you see F-35andF-22 entering middle kingdom air space? they will get shot down. no need to confront them with planes 10 hq-9 for every merican planes. enough said.
> 
> 
> that goes the same with over priced rafale!



Hi,

You don't need to shoot down the F22's / F35' in your air space---. Just shoot down the air refuellers.

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## Windjammer



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## mdmm

Brothers.
Initial agreement said that Pakistan will get 25 of J-10 C from China but so far only 6. Is there any news, when will PAF get full of 25 OR 36 of J-10 C ??
When will PAF get all of ordered JF-17 Block3 from China ??
Will ,removal of patriotic Imran Khan effect/stop the delivery of J-10c and JF-17 Block3 to Pakistan from China ??


----------



## White privilege

mdmm said:


> Brothers.
> Initial agreement said that Pakistan will get 25 of J-10 C from China but so far only 6. Is there any news, when will PAF get full of 25 OR 36 of J-10 C ??
> When will PAF get all of ordered JF-17 Block3 from China ??
> Will ,removal of patriotic Imran Khan effect/stop the delivery of J-10c and JF-17 Block3 to Pakistan from China ??


Zip it bozo, Pak-China relations weren't affected when Hussain Haqqani was running Pakistan, there wouldn't be any issue now either.

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## Princeps Senatus

Super Falcon said:


> If India get these F 18 Maverick they pose a major threat to our airforce and naval bases and they can carry direct land based operation on our soil so we need to plan on them also


Yes, I've thought about this too. If IN starts operating Rafale or SH on the West Coast, we may want some J-10Cs at Karachi if we want to check them. Doesn't have to be a full squadron.

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## Signalian

mdmm said:


> Brothers.
> Initial agreement said that Pakistan will get 25 of J-10 C from China but so far only 6. Is there any news, when will PAF get full of 25 OR 36 of J-10 C ??
> When will PAF get all of ordered JF-17 Block3 from China ??
> Will ,removal of patriotic Imran Khan effect/stop the delivery of J-10c and JF-17 Block3 to Pakistan from China ??


And also, 7th, 8th, 17th and 23rd squadrons need immediate replacements. Then 25th and 27th.

Contenders are J-10 and JFT Block III. If lucky then maybe some variant of F-16.



Princeps Senatus said:


> Yes, I've thought about this too. If IN starts operating Rafale or SH on the West Coast, we may want some J-10Cs at Karachi if we want to check them. Doesn't have to be a full squadron.


There are other ways to look at it.

1. Should PN have its own fighter squadron
2. JF-17 Block III should be able to take on Rafale 1 to 1, however in reality other factors will play their part.

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## ghazi52

.,.,
Rehan Siraj

@RehanSiraj1

My new painting depicting J-10C of PAF No. 15 Sqn "Cobras". Old aircrafts of Cobras can be seen in a box formation. 
watercolors

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Raja Porus

Signalian said:


> Should PN have its own fighter squadron


Yes, I felt the need very much.


----------



## Readerdefence

Hi how can IN induct F18 and been able to operate from ski jump ramp if they do so will take another 5 years or so at least by that time easiest way for PN is to induct better SAM system all along their cost with SAM better carrier killer to deny IN near coast by 5 years time more J10 & JF17 BLk3 only dedicated for PN role wit or without PN air arm 
IN still away sometime from catapult 
IN biggest bet if USA supply them with F18s will be to deploy these not in Indian Ocean but with USA back in Pacific region against Chinese navy as for PN they are adamant mig29 is enough 
thank you

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## Legio XI The Ironclads

Readerdefence said:


> Hi how can IN induct F18 and been able to operate from ski jump ramp if they do so will take another 5 years or so at least by that time easiest way for PN is to induct better SAM system all along their cost with SAM better carrier killer to deny IN near coast by 5 years time more J10 & JF17 BLk3 only dedicated for PN role wit or without PN air arm
> IN still away sometime from catapult
> IN biggest bet if USA supply them with F18s will be to deploy these not in Indian Ocean but with USA back in Pacific region against Chinese navy as for PN they are adamant mig29 is enough
> thank you


F18 has already been certified for Indian Carrier ski jump, by Boeing.


----------



## Signalian

mao ze tung said:


> do you see F-35andF-22 entering middle kingdom air space? they will get shot down. no need to confront them with planes 10 hq-9 for every merican planes. enough said.
> 
> 
> that goes the same with over priced rafale!


HQ-9 and S-400 defending an airspace makes SEAD/DEAD Ops interesting.

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## Signalian

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 849869


Those 4 hardpoints under fuselage make me think again and again which EW equipment can be fitted there.

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## Talon

Signalian said:


> HQ-9 and S-400 defending an airspace makes SEAD/DEAD Ops interesting.


Dream job for a SEAD/DEAD pilot

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## Windjammer

Painting depicting first Rafale Ripper touching down in Pakistan.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

A dedicate way on canvas..by Waqar

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Trango Towers

mikkix said:


> Piece of trash


J10c is a piece of trash..?? 

Looooool .. Indian?

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## MastanKhan

Signalian said:


> Those 4 hardpoints under fuselage make me think again and again which EW equipment can be fitted there.



Hi,

Why are you putting so much pressure on your dainty brain---. Whatever equipment needs to be fitted, it will be fitted.

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## Signalian

mikkix said:


> Piece of trash


I think the "trashy" thing about J-10 is no pylons on wingtips.


----------



## Iron Shrappenel

Signalian said:


> Those 4 hardpoints under fuselage make me think again and again which EW equipment can be fitted there.


Is there a possibility that PAF would be allowed to fit Turkish Pods ?


----------



## Signalian

Iron Shrappenel said:


> Is there a possibility that PAF would be allowed to fit Turkish Pods ?


I hope so, QUWA knows better, but Chinese should be able to hand over something for J-10 regarding EW.

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## Aamir Hussain

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> View attachment 851910


Seems like we not only procured the Fighter Jet from China but also the parade style, & turnout full with the helmet on!!!

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Iron Shrappenel said:


> Is there a possibility that PAF would be allowed to fit Turkish Pods ?





Signalian said:


> I hope so, QUWA knows better, but Chinese should be able to hand over something for J-10 regarding EW.



While the J-10CE is capable of air-to-ground/surface ops, I think the PAF will primarily use them in the air-to-air role, at least until it can build up a large enough fleet. The bulk of the air-to-ground/surface work will go to the various JF-17 variants.

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## Signalian

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> While the J-10CE is capable of air-to-ground/surface ops, I think the PAF will primarily use them in the air-to-air role, at least until it can build up a large enough fleet. The bulk of the air-to-ground/surface work will go to the various JF-17 variants.


My understanding was F-16s will be carrying out bulk of A2A tasks due to lesser A2G long range weaponry available to PAF F-16s.

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## NA71

mikkix said:


> Piece of trash


Yes, every non sense post is a piece of trash.

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## Raja Porus

Signalian said:


> My understanding was F-16s will be carrying out bulk of A2A tasks due to lesser A2G long range weaponry available to PAF F-16s.


Number of F16s alone especially when we take into account the availability will be low for AD, that's why J10s will also be reserved for A2A. On the other hand, blkIIIs will be used for both A2A as well as A2G.

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## Trailer23

Desert Fox 1 said:


> blkIIIs will be used for both A2A as well as A2G.


Whenever the hell they arrive.

*Top Gun: Maverick* release hogaee, par Block III ka koi ata-pata nahe.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Signalian said:


> My understanding was F-16s will be carrying out bulk of A2A tasks due to lesser A2G long range weaponry available to PAF F-16s.


Yep F-16 and J-10CE together.

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## Windjammer



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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> While the J-10CE is capable of air-to-ground/surface ops, I think the PAF will primarily use them in the air-to-air role, at least until it can build up a large enough fleet. The bulk of the air-to-ground/surface work will go to the various *JF-17 variants.*


Give them a H-2 range weapon and they are going to be excellent gut punchers. 
The REK requires altitude for range - a rocket boosted standoff that can do even 60-80km will let the JF-17 pretty much any target east with impunity so long as the package it has decent cover.

Think about it @Desert Fox 1

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> Give them a H-2 range weapon and they are going to be excellent gut punchers.
> The REK requires altitude for range - a rocket boosted standoff that can do even 60-80km will let the JF-17 pretty much any target east with impunity so long as the package it has decent cover.
> 
> Think about it @Desert Fox 1


Absolutely. I think the PAF has taken this exact approach. Basically, configure the JF-17 with a large variety of air-to-surface munitions -- e.g., IREK, REK-3, Ra'ad and Ra'ad-2, LD-10 ARMs, C-802 AShM, and maybe an HD-1A-type AShM -- and leverage the F-16 and J-10 for top cover.

That said, in the long run, I'd keep an eye on the drone space. I feel that the PAF would still prefer having as many fighters available for the air-to-air role (hence the strong emphasis to fit the PL-15 to the JF-17). Therefore, large MALE (e.g. WL-2) and HALE UAVs (like Bayraktar Akıncı) may become the mainstay SOW carriers.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## TheTallGuy

So still 6 in service or more have arrived?
I am worried they dont become like B56s


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## Windjammer

PAF's New Flag Carrier.

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## Trango Towers

Windjammer said:


> PAF's New Flag Carrier.
> View attachment 853175


Is that a full cap weapons package? Would love to see that from the underside

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## Windjammer

Trango Towers said:


> Is that a full cap weapons package? Would love to see that from the underside

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## Trango Towers

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 853215


Dual racks look pretty cool. Thanks bro. Nice click 👍


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## GriffinsRule

Super Falcon said:


> How Pakistan coup up 150 Rafales of IAF in future with just 36 j 10


It cant.


----------



## Metal 0-1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This pilot is committing a cardinal flight sin. If he has to eject on these frozen mountains, there is no chance for his survival at all.
> 
> because by the time he lands on the snowy mountain after ejection ---his hand upto his arm would be frozen and would break like a twig as he hits the ground.


Yeah those flight gloves will save his life. No joke.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In the US it is called---" I DON'T CARE---I DON'T GIVE SH-IT" attitude.
> 
> A shameless show of indiscipline.


Very indiscipline of them. Bunch of rookies


----------



## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Abid123

GriffinsRule said:


> It cant.


We can never match India in conventional terms. After all they are a country 6x times larger. I also believe India will never match China in conventional terms despite having a similar population.

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## Abid123

Super Falcon said:


> How Pakistan coup up 150 Rafales of IAF in future with just 36 j 10


We cant and we shoud not try to. Also why are you assuming that we are going to have just 36 J-10C? Why should build up a sizeable fleet of J-10C. Which in my opinion would be around 100.

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## MastanKhan

Metal 0-1 said:


> Yeah those flight gloves will save his life. No joke.
> 
> 
> Very indiscipline of them. Bunch of rookies


Hi,

they are professionals and not rookies---but this appearance is very casual.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> they are professionals and not rookies---but this appearance is very casual.


My guess is that when he was trying to take a photo, he took his gloves off in order to operate his smartphone.

tbh, if in-flight photos are going to be a thing, the PAF should assign specific aircrew gloves without the fingertips. Not only that but have a designated person in charge of taking photos in-flight in each squadron -- and prohibit everyone else. Finally, tell the designated photographer to upload approved photos to the PAF's official Instagram account (or an official IG account of the squadron).

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## Metal 0-1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> they are professionals and not rookies---but this appearance is very casual.


Ngl I still don't understand what your point is as in general.


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## Gripen9

Metal 0-1 said:


> Ngl I still don't understand what your point is as in general.


His point is, that the pilot is very unprofessional for operating without his gloves on. If he has to eject @ 30000ft over the mountains, he will lose his hands even before he lands on the ground.

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## Super Falcon

Abid123 said:


> We cant and we shoud not try to. Also why are you assuming that we are going to have just 36 J-10C? Why should build up a sizeable fleet of J-10C. Which in my opinion would be around 100.


First save Pakistan economy than may be but this is not good time we waited too long we always very best when making bad decisions which are haunting us


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## MastanKhan

Metal 0-1 said:


> Ngl I still don't understand what your point is as in general.



Hi

" DEY AUR DIL UNKO JO, NAH DEY MUJH KO ZUBAN AUR ".

So---let us use common sense---temp at K2---around -75 deg C. Ejection at that altitude and let us assume a wind blast coming out of the aircraft. Let us say a wind speed o 110 mph---add the numbers and calculate

​



Wind Chill Calculator



Do they not teach you any " power of reasoning " at your high school.

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## Metal 0-1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi
> 
> " DEY AUR DIL UNKO JO, NAH DEY MUJH KO ZUBAN AUR ".
> 
> So---let us use common sense---temp at K2---around -75 deg C. Ejection at that altitude and let us assume a wind blast coming out of the aircraft. Let us say a wind speed o 110 mph---add the numbers and calculate
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> Wind Chill Calculator
> 
> 
> 
> Do they not teach you any " power of reasoning " at your high school.


 Those gloves won't do shit at that temperature.


----------



## flyhigh

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> My guess is that when he was trying to take a photo, he took his gloves off in order to operate his smartphone.
> 
> tbh, if in-flight photos are going to be a thing, the PAF should assign specific aircrew gloves without the fingertips. Not only that but have a designated person in charge of taking photos in-flight in each squadron -- and prohibit everyone else. Finally, tell the designated photographer to upload approved photos to the PAF's official Instagram account (or an official IG account of the squadron).


While working for specialty chemicals MNC(STAHL), there was an specific R&D requirements from European leather gloves manufacturer requested to address that particular problem (smart phone/devise friendly) and we were almost there before I left.


----------



## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi
> 
> " DEY AUR DIL UNKO JO, NAH DEY MUJH KO ZUBAN AUR ".
> 
> So---let us use common sense---temp at K2---around -75 deg C. Ejection at that altitude and let us assume a wind blast coming out of the aircraft. Let us say a wind speed o 110 mph---add the numbers and calculate
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> Wind Chill Calculator
> 
> 
> 
> Do they not teach you any " power of reasoning " at your high school.


I think the power of reasoning was failed to have been taught by your kind at high school....

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## MastanKhan

Raider 21 said:


> I think the power of reasoning was failed to have been taught by your kind at hig





Raider 21 said:


> I think the power of reasoning was failed to have been taught by your kind at high school....


Hi,

My kind did---I know it because I did it.

Your kind did not give a ra'ts behind---.

Things of common survival----general common sense don't need to be taught.

Just a moment---sorry---I realize that most pakistanis have never lived in real real cold weather.

When a thin shalwar and open tow chappal is the dress of choice---for that person--sever cold has no meaning.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> My kind did---I know it because I did it.
> 
> Your kind did not give a ra'ts behind---.
> 
> Thins of common survival----general common sense don't need to be taught.
> 
> Just a moment---sorry---I realize that most pakistanis have never lived in real real cold weather.
> 
> When a thin shalwar and open tow chappal is the dress of choice---for that person--sever cold has no meaning.


Have lived in -30 Celsius temperature ranges for over a decade. And little Mastan it was a joke, my apologies if it woke you up or you didn't like it. 

Cheers

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## Metal 0-1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> My kind did---I know it because I did it.
> 
> Your kind did not give a ra'ts behind---.
> 
> Thins of common survival----general common sense don't need to be taught.
> 
> Just a moment---sorry---I realize that most pakistanis have never lived in real real cold weather.
> 
> When a thin shalwar and open tow chappal is the dress of choice---for that person--sever cold has no meaning.


Okay SERE specialist


----------



## cssniper

Thanks to the uploader.
(The link is dead now)

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## Deino

Second batch again 6 aircraft?

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## araz

Deino said:


> Second batch again 6 aircraft?


Looks like it 
A


----------



## m52k85

cssniper said:


> Thanks to the uploader.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 抱歉，该内容已被作者删除 - 知乎
> 
> 
> 知乎，中文互联网高质量的问答社区和创作者聚集的原创内容平台，于 2011 年 1 月正式上线，以「让人们更好的分享知识、经验和见解，找到自己的解答」为品牌使命。知乎凭借认真、专业、友善的社区氛围、独特的产品机制以及结构化和易获得的优质内容，聚集了中文互联网科技、商业、影视、时尚、文化等领域最具创造力的人群，已成为综合性、全品类、在诸多领域具有关键影响力的知识分享社区和创作者聚集的原创内容平台，建立起了以社区驱动的内容变现商业模式。
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.zhihu.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 855556


Link not opening. What does it say?


----------



## cssniper

m52k85 said:


> Link not opening. What does it say?


New batch J-10C for Pakistan. Other characters are advertisement of the site.


----------



## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539255307641274368

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## sneakerspark

Deino said:


> Second batch again 6 aircraft?


I guess 8 this time...

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## johncliu88

Wow! That is very quick for CAC to deliver the 2nd batch of J-10CP jets. Good for Pak air force.

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## Deino

johncliu88 said:


> Wow! That is very quick for CAC to deliver the 2nd batch of J-10CP jets. Good for Pak air force.




AFAIK they are NOT yet delivered, they are just spotted at CAC!


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## Readerdefence

Deino said:


> AFAIK they are NOT yet delivered, they are just spotted at CAC!


Hi Deino so are they been delivered 6 each in a batch by that will it going to be 6 batches of 6 each probably 12 aircraft in a year in possession of PAF 
any info on this 
thank you


----------



## Princeps Senatus

sneakerspark said:


> I guess 8 this time...


source?


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## MastanKhan

johncliu88 said:


> Wow! That is very quick for CAC to deliver the 2nd batch of J-10CP jets. Good for Pak air force.



Hi,

If I am not forgetting, there were about 28 J10-C's sitting on the tarmac in china designated for PAF

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If I am not forgetting, there were about 28 J10-C's sitting on the tarmac in china designated for PAF





johncliu88 said:


> Wow! That is very quick for CAC to deliver the 2nd batch of J-10CP jets. Good for Pak air force.





Again, those new batch J-10CEs are *NOT *yet delivered and even more, when have there been "about 28 J10-C's sitting on the tarmac in china designated for PAF"??
If you think of those spotted in January, those were definitely not for Pakistan since most had PLAAF markings and NONE PAF markings, but surely again you will rant and complain I know nothing since I never published anything technically!

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## syedmunib

Deino said:


> Again, those new batch J-10CEs are *NOT *yet delivered and even more, when have there been "about 28 J10-C's sitting on the tarmac in china designated for PAF"??
> If you think of those spotted in January, those were definitely not for Pakistan since most had PLAAF markings and NONE PAF markings, but surely again you will rant and complain I know nothing since I never published anything technically!


Ahh the @MastanKhan & @Deino chitchat. What fun will this form be without that ?

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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> Again, those new batch J-10CEs are *NOT *yet delivered and even more, when have there been "about 28 J10-C's sitting on the tarmac in china designated for PAF"??
> If you think of those spotted in January, those were definitely not for Pakistan since most had PLAAF markings and NONE PAF markings, *but surely again you will rant and complain I know nothing since I never published anything technically! *



Hi Deino,

I told posters like you before---you will never be a good COP.

I don't want to expand on this comment at this moment.

Your last comment was not very intelligent and had nothing to do with being technical or my post. You just wanted to stir up some sh-it. I am a little busy today---maybe next time I will respond.

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi Deino,
> 
> I told posters like you before---you will never be a good COP.
> 
> I don't want to expand on this comment at this moment.
> 
> Your last comment was not very intelligent and had nothing to do with being technical or my post. You just wanted to stir up some sh-it. I am a little busy today---maybe next time I will respond.




And your post was not intelligent at all since it was plain wrong! From all we know, the first Pakistani J-10CE was noted in the public in mid-February 2022 and these were totally unrelated as you try to assume to the masses of J-10Cs for the PLAAF standing at CAC in Febraury 2021!

But since I am busy too, I won't add anything more ... I just wanted to point to the facts in case some think there were already "about 28 J10-C's sitting on the tarmac in china designated for PAF" and "all 25 were delivered", which is both wrong and would you take a bit more care to facts, you would know it. Or maybe you know it but you don't care anyway?!

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

Here we go..............

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## Princeps Senatus

ghazi52 said:


> Here we go..............
> 
> 
> View attachment 857508


113? does that mean more than 6 for this batch?


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## Maarkhoor

As per some sources PAF revised order from 25 to original 36 J-10 jets....

@Windjammer

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## araz

Princeps Senatus said:


> 113? does that mean more than 6 for this batch?


This would indicate we might be getting up to 8 platforms this time. We have heard previously that 8 platforms are due to be delivered so this might be true.
A

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## Thrust_Vector998

Princeps Senatus said:


> 113? does that mean more than 6 for this batch?


Seems like 103


----------



## maverick1977

Super Falcon said:


> How Pakistan coup up 150 Rafales of IAF in future with just 36 j 10


with a total of 

10-12 PL15 armed J10C under belly and on dual racks .. this lethal weapon is more than sufficent to target 3-4 Rafaels at BVR simultaneously .. 
36 x4 = 144 Rafaels.. 

and If went above 36 to lets say 72 to 108 J10C, then game over for Indian airforce for sure..

JF17 with PL 15 on dual racks with 4-8 itself is end of the story for rafaels

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

J-10C Serial # 22-111 spotted during flight tests. This airframe is the 11th Dragon from 2nd batch for PAF.

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## Deino

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> J-10C Serial # 22-111 spotted during flight tests. This airframe is the 11th Dragon from 2nd batch for PAF.
> View attachment 857866




No, it is the overall 11th airframe and as such the 5th from the second batch.

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## MastanKhan

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> J-10C Serial # 22-111 spotted during flight tests. This airframe is the 11th Dragon from 2nd batch for PAF.
> View attachment 857866



Hi,

Thanks for your post.

I am wondering---the guy who responded to your post earlier---what did he want to say?



maverick1977 said:


> with a total of
> 
> 10-12 PL15 armed J10C under belly and on dual racks .. this lethal weapon is more than sufficent to target 3-4 Rafaels at BVR simultaneously ..
> 36 x4 = 144 Rafaels..
> 
> and If went above 36 to lets say 72 to 108 J10C, then game over for Indian airforce for sure..
> 
> JF17 with PL 15 on dual racks with 4-8 itself is end of the story for rafaels



Hi,

Each aircraft is designed for optimum carrying capacity of weapons for a maximum functional use.

The J-10 cannot operate to its maximum efficiency with 1-12 PL15's. 

4 is the optimum number for this aircraft.

Just like 2 BVR's is the optimum number for the current JF17's

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for your post.
> 
> I am wondering---the guy who responded to your post earlier---what did he want to say?




Ok in case someone like you either cannot or does not want to think … here a second try:

22-101
22-102
22-103
22-104
22-105
22-106 = all six J-10CE delivered via first batch

therefore most likely:
22-107
22-108
22-109
22-110
22-111 = the aircraft shown above aka the 5th in the second batch.

Come one, Thinking is not that difficult and even more it does not hurt. But I‘m pretty sure most other members fully understood what i wanted to say, it is only You!

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## MastanKhan

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> J-10C Serial # 22-111 spotted during flight tests. This airframe is the 11th Dragon from 2nd batch for PAF.


hI,

Relax @Deino ---the guy just missed a comma or an AND---. Don't need to chop his head off for that.


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

maverick1977 said:


> with a total of
> 
> 10-12 PL15 armed J10C under belly and on dual racks .. this lethal weapon is more than sufficent to target 3-4 Rafaels at BVR simultaneously ..
> 36 x4 = 144 Rafaels..
> 
> and If went above 36 to lets say 72 to 108 J10C, then game over for Indian airforce for sure..
> 
> JF17 with PL 15 on dual racks with 4-8 itself is end of the story for rafaels


It's not an arithmetic game, it's a physics game! He who has mastered physics better would win!!! By the by, coding for the social media companies doesn't count as physics....

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## Signalian

maverick1977 said:


> with a total of
> 
> 10-12 PL15 armed J10C under belly and on dual racks .. this lethal weapon is more than sufficent to target 3-4 Rafaels at BVR simultaneously ..
> 36 x4 = 144 Rafaels..
> 
> and If went above 36 to lets say 72 to 108 J10C, then game over for Indian airforce for sure..
> 
> JF17 with PL 15 on dual racks with 4-8 itself is end of the story for rafaels


PAF sending the message across
"Expensive doesn't mean better".

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## syed_yusuf

J10c was a master stroke by paf. Even if iaf gets f35 from USA, paf will be able handle..... not 1:1 but will be able to handle. However with current political and economic crisis I highly doubt it is sustainable for paf to continue modernization and maintain this fleet.


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## Edevelop

syed_yusuf said:


> J10c was a master stroke by paf. Even if iaf gets f35 from USA, paf will be able handle..... not 1:1 but will be able to handle. However with current political and economic crisis I highly doubt it is sustainable for paf to continue modernization and maintain this fleet.



India has economic issues as well. Unlike Pakistan they just don't like to admit this fact publicly.

At the moment they have 36 Rafales and it appears the numbers won't grow to the idea they originally conceived. Here is a link to a news report which states India is going to cut down Rafales from 114 to just 57








India Halves $20B Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft Program: Report


The Indian Air Force is reportedly cutting down its foreign fighter procurement program requirement from 114 to 57 aircraft.




www.thedefensepost.com





So its a battle between 57 Rafales and 36 J-10s.

If they somehow get the F-35 which I doubt it would be anytime soon, History and time has proven Pakistan can get what it wants from China. I believe we have a relationship which can get us anything on soft terms.

Also pertinent to note:

India is slower in replacing its ageing fleet. Over 128 Mig-21 (flying coffins) still active. Their Tejas program is not even close to what the JF-17 has done in Pakistan.

The other Indian fleet such as the SU-30 was exposed on Feb 2019. I don't think its worth discussing its capabilities The Block 2 JFTs and older F-16s are just far too superior.

India is bigger in area and it has 1.5 pilots per aircraft while we are smaller and have 2.5 pilots per aircraft.

In the future India's cost to operate western aircrafts is going to be very expensive and deliveries of their spare parts are going to be painfully slow when they are needed the most because the West is just not at the level of China in terms of production and Pakistan is China's little brother who has experience and industry.

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## NA71

Signalian said:


> PAF sending the message across
> "Expensive doesn't mean better".



Sir, just a question ...what message as a nation, we are sending to entire world for last couple of months...


----------



## Signalian

NA71 said:


> Sir, just a question ...what message as a nation, we are sending to entire world for last couple of months...


The world is not bothered about Pakistan, unless to link Pakistan with terrorism at every opportunity.

Entire world has other worries of their own and interests of their own. Ukrainian war is more interesting to most of them than what happens inside Pakistan.

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## syed_yusuf

Edevelop said:


> India has economic issues as well. Unlike Pakistan they just don't like to admit this fact publicly.
> 
> At the moment they have 36 Rafales and it appears the numbers won't grow to the idea they originally conceived. Here is a link to a news report which states India is going to cut down Rafales from 114 to just 57
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India Halves $20B Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft Program: Report
> 
> 
> The Indian Air Force is reportedly cutting down its foreign fighter procurement program requirement from 114 to 57 aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedefensepost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So its a battle between 57 Rafales and 36 J-10s.
> 
> If they somehow get the F-35 which I doubt it would be anytime soon, History and time has proven Pakistan can get what it wants from China. I believe we have a relationship which can get us anything on soft terms.
> 
> Also pertinent to note:
> 
> India is slower in replacing its ageing fleet. Over 128 Mig-21 (flying coffins) still active. Their Tejas program is not even close to what the JF-17 has done in Pakistan.
> 
> The other Indian fleet such as the SU-30 was exposed on Feb 2019. I don't think its worth discussing its capabilities The Block 2 JFTs and older F-16s are just far too superior.
> 
> India is bigger in area and it has 1.5 pilots per aircraft while we are smaller and have 2.5 pilots per aircraft.
> 
> In the future India's cost to operate western aircrafts is going to be very expensive and deliveries of their spare parts are going to be painfully slow when they are needed the most because the West is just not at the level of China in terms of production and Pakistan is China's little brother who has experience and industry.


All of the above is good but remember Indian rupee did not devaluate 300% in 15 years. They still have decent export. A good internal economy , balanced food, power and education. I do not want to derail the thread. But Pakistan economy is in very bad shape due to mismanagement and bad decisions. A strong defence among other things need a very strong economy to prevail

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## Windjammer

The first group of Rafale Rippers.

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## dbc

Edevelop said:


> In the future India's cost to operate western aircrafts is going to be very expensive and deliveries of their spare parts are going to be painfully slow



wishful thinking, I suspect the Rafale can generate much higher sortie rates and sustain higher operational tempo with less spares v J10CE. Sure, Rafale munitions are super expensive. I think India will deplete its inventory of Rafale munitions long before it runs out of spares. But then, India has the option of emergency weapons purchase from France or other Rafale operators. Pakistan will have to hope for Chinese largesse.

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## arslank03

dbc said:


> wishful thinking, I suspect the Rafale can generate much higher sortie rates and sustain higher operational tempo with less spares v J10CE. Sure, Rafale munitions are super expensive. I think India will deplete its inventory of Rafale munitions long before it runs out of spares. But then, India has the option of emergency weapons purchase from France or other Rafale operators. Pakistan will have to hope for Chinese largesse.




India stipulated that Dassault had to ensure ATLEAST 75% serviceability for their rafale fleet after seeing the French Air Force Rafale fleet having 48% availability in 2016. Im not sure about you, but if i was buying something and i had to ASK the OEM to ensure that it would work at least 3/4 times, it wouldn't impress me very much.

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## dbc

rgfegasrg said:


> 48% availability in 2016.



Means nothing, the French include all Rafale aircraft in their availability metric even the ones they deliberately preserve and take out of the operational rotation pool. I can tell you the Rafale can sustain high operational tempo with high mission availability rates when required. In other words, you can expect the entire IAF Rafale fleet to be available for an estimated three months of a high tempo military operation. Beyond that the availability rate will drop to the high 90s for a few months while the IAF deplete their spares inventory.


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## Readerdefence

syed_yusuf said:


> J10c was a master stroke by paf. Even if iaf gets f35 from USA, paf will be able handle..... not 1:1 but will be able to handle. However with current political and economic crisis I highly doubt it is sustainable for paf to continue modernization and maintain this fleet.


Hi if we go by this scenarios about 5th generation fighter vs 4th then Top gun maverick can be a reality to slay over 5th generation with early 4th gen f14 😀
thank you


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## MastanKhan

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> It's not an arithmetic game, it's a physics game! He who has mastered physics better would win!!! By the by, coding for the social media companies doesn't count as physics....



Hi,

Did you know that PHYSICS is an OPTIONAL subject for many high schools in the US.

You can get into an engineering university here in the US without a class of physics in your high school diploma.

That came as a surprise.

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## StructE

dbc said:


> Means nothing, the French include all Rafale aircraft in their availability metric even the ones they deliberately preserve and take out of the operational rotation pool. I can tell you the Rafale can sustain high operational tempo with high mission availability rates when required. In other words, you can expect the entire IAF Rafale fleet to be available for an estimated three months of a high tempo military operation. Beyond that the availability rate will drop to the high 90s for a few months while the IAF deplete their spares inventory.


USAF can achieve 75% mission capability for F-16 in a best-case scenario. This is based on publicly available data. For a month long campaign anything more than 60% for Indian Rafale's would be miracle.

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## dbc

StructE said:


> USAF can achieve 75% mission capability for F-16 in a best-case scenario. This is based on publicly available data. For a month long campaign anything more than 60% for Indian Rafale's would be miracle.


you are confusing mission capability with availability, these are two different metric.
Lets say the targeting pod laser interface is broken the aircraft isn't able designate ground targets the aircraft is available but mission capability isn't at a 100% - since the aircraft cannot participate in any mission that requires laser target designation. The aircrafts availability rate is a 100% but mission capability rate drops.


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## SQ8

dbc said:


> wishful thinking, I *suspect the Rafale can generate much higher sortie rates and sustain higher operational tempo with less spares v J10CE*. Sure, Rafale munitions are super expensive. I think India will deplete its inventory of Rafale munitions long before it runs out of spares. But then, India has the option of emergency weapons purchase from France or other Rafale operators. Pakistan will have to hope for Chinese largesse.


Based on what reference or proof?



dbc said:


> you are confusing mission capability with availability, these are two different metric.
> Lets say the targeting pod interface is broken the aircraft is available but mission capability isn't at a 100%.


the last report hasn’t been kind to *availability* 
https://www.airforcemag.com/usaf-aircraft-availability-on-long-downward-trend-cbo-says/

Unless you have some other “inside” sources - thats from CBO.

“For a more granular look, the CBO examined the F-15C/D and F-16C/D and found that their *availability* declined from just under 70 percent for both aircraft in 2000 to about 55 percent for the F-16 in 2020, while the F-15 came in about 45 percent.”

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## dbc

SQ8 said:


> Based on what reference or proof?



I said suspect, I don't have any proof. I do know the M88 is reliable based on ECMS data with an impressive 'O' hours between TBO. I can't say the same about the WS-10 - there is no data, our Chinese members indicate it doesn't approach Russian levels of reliability thus far.


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## Great Janjua

dbc said:


> I said suspect, I don't have any proof. I do know the M88 is reliable based on ECMS data with an impressive 'O' hours between TBO. I can't say the same about the WS-10 - there is no data, and our Chinese members indicate it doesn't approach Russian levels of reliability thus far.


What a joke the j-10 is a frontline Chinese fighter that should tell you enough China already has incorporated many indigenous parts in their Sukhoi copies if the ws-10 engine was that bad you wouldn't see china using them and certainly not PAF. 

Technological advancement is not limited to certain western countries anymore it's the modern age wake-up.

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## dbc

SQ8 said:


> the last report hasn’t been kind to *availability*
> https://www.airforcemag.com/usaf-aircraft-availability-on-long-downward-trend-cbo-says/
> 
> Unless you have some other “inside” sources - thats from CBO.
> 
> “For a more granular look, the CBO examined the F-15C/D and F-16C/D and found that their *availability* declined from just under 70 percent for both aircraft in 2000 to about 55 percent for the F-16 in 2020, while the F-15 came in about 45 percent.”



Unless the IAF operate F-16s or F-15s I'm not sure what I'm to make of your post? True, operational units may rotate some aircraft into storage but that's a budgetary exercise. With a bulk of the training now done on realistic DIS multi force simulator some wings choose to deprioritize flight hours and use the money for something else. The CBO report is not a true reflection of ground realities.


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## SQ8

dbc said:


> Unless the IAF operate F-16s or F-15s I'm not sure what I'm to make of your post? True, operational units may rotate some aircraft into storage but that's a budgetary exercise. With a bulk of the training now done on realistic DIS multi force simulator some wings choose to deprioritize flight hours and use the money for something else. The CBO report is not a true reflection of ground realities.


You mentioned availability as a metric with an incorrect figure which I corrected and now made a tangent so frankly I’m not sure what to make of your post. Training is tangential to aircraft availability for combat operations - you aren’t using a DIS simulator when deploying units to a combat theatre . Flight HOURS aren’t the metric here - availability is. If the availability is 75% for 100 aircraft its 75 aircraft available for getting off the ground and into a fight.

Whether you put pilots with 50/50 sim/real flight hours or 80/20 mix is *irrelevant* to the aircraft being available. 

There’s drinking your own kool-aid and there’s calling Dortioes Kool Aid to try and prove a point.



dbc said:


> I said suspect, I don't have any proof. I do know the *M88* is reliable based on *ECMS data with an impressive 'O' hours between TBO*. I can't say the same about the WS-10 - there is no data, our Chinese members indicate it doesn't approach Russian levels of reliability thus far.


Do you know why they quote that figure?

The M-88 isn’t the only component in the aircraft. A brand new Viper V will have similar levels of availability throughout its first 3-5 years of operations.

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## dbc

SQ8 said:


> You mentioned availability as a metric with an incorrect figure which I corrected and now made a tangent so frankly I’m not sure what to make of your post. Training is tangential to aircraft availability for combat operations - you aren’t using a DIS simulator when deploying units to a combat theatre . Flight HOURS aren’t the metric here - availability is. If the availability is 75% for 100 aircraft its 75 aircraft available for getting off the ground and into a fight.
> 
> Whether you put pilots with 50/50 sim/real flight hours or 80/20 mix is *irrelevant* to the aircraft being available.
> 
> There’s drinking your own kool-aid and there’s calling Dortioes Kool Aid to try and prove a point.



again, what does USAF rates have to with the IAF and Rafale? You speak of tangents, and here we are - you took a sharp left and flew off a tangent cliff. I didn't mention any figures, and surely when a detachment commander of the Rafale fleet says the Rafale enjoyed a 100% availability rate during the entirety of the Libya campaign, I'm supposed to ignore that because it upsets you?

I can't believe you have me defending the Rafale on PDF, if you rather I didn't speak my mind make it so - you have the power.

Now back to the USAF, and perhaps @gambit can explain this better than I can. Sustaining high peace time availability rates costs money, given most training currencies can now be obtained in a simulator fewer aircraft are needed to made available by the crew for training missions. You may point to the CBO report and say the USAF fleet has poor availability rates and pilots log fewer flight hours. You are right, but the lack of availability may have nothing to do with the reliability of the platform. The truth is since the advent of "rapid roger" operationally deployed units have manipulated these numbers to do whatever makes sense and is operationally relevant, never mind the bean counters in the Pentagon.


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## GriffinsRule

SQ8 said:


> Based on what reference or proof?
> 
> 
> the last report hasn’t been kind to *availability*
> https://www.airforcemag.com/usaf-aircraft-availability-on-long-downward-trend-cbo-says/
> 
> Unless you have some other “inside” sources - thats from CBO.
> 
> “For a more granular look, the CBO examined the F-15C/D and F-16C/D and found that their *availability* declined from just under 70 percent for both aircraft in 2000 to about 55 percent for the F-16 in 2020, while the F-15 came in about 45 percent.”


I would expect these rates to go back up as their legacy fleet goes through Block 70 standard modernization, which will replace a lot of systems that would be now harder to maintain or get spares for as they are no longer being manufactured.


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## gambit

The problem with complex machinery is that if they do not run, fly, or swim on a regular basis, they break when you turn them on. But that is not all, when your wing reduces flying hrs, Maintenance is affected because they do not have the experience of doing what they do best -- maintain -- the jets. New maintainers takes longer to certify even on the basics of whatever their specialty, and experienced maintainers gradually lose proficiency. Maintenance records contributes to that misleading availability statistics. If once a jet is signed off as mission capable but does not fly for a couple weeks, the odds of something go wrong on engine start increases. A typical squadron have about 12 to 20-something jets, depending on the platform. When I was active duty, we did not have simulators like today, so each of our jets take off at least once a week, assuming the standard 5 days flying schedule. This would create the truer Mission Capable (MC) rate.

If a jet is 'available' it does not mean it is 'mission capable'. The Thunderbirds F-16s can be made 'available' with a stroke of the pen -- they are flying -- but would hardly be 'mission capable'. Not without a lot of hangar time.

If a jet is at Depot level maintenance, the jet is literally off base and with the manufacturer. But if a jet is at Phase level maintenance, the jet is still on base and in wing possession but is not in flyable condition. Here is where the 'fudge' factor come in. A jet in Phase maintenance can be rendered flyable condition in a few days, then passed the Functional Check Flight (FCF) and become Mission Capable (MC) again. The jet in Phase maintenance can be fudged into the MC rate.

The Aircraft Available (AA) rate is based on all the jets the squadron own. The Mission Capable (MC) rate is based on actual flyable jets.

Let us say a squadron have 20 jets. Five are at Depot which make 15 on base. The AA rate is 15/20 or %75. However, of that 15 on base, three are in Phase maintenance leaving 12 on the ramp. The MC rate is 12/15 or %80. War planning with the 12 jets on the ramp would be realistic because that is all the squadron is capable to send even though the 3 jets in Phase could be out in a week. Similarly, if a mission require 20 jets but the squadron have only 12, either the squadron would be partnered with another squadron or be dismissed from the mission.

Platform reliability affects both the AA and MC rates, however, its greatest contribution is at the MC rate. In wartime, Depot and Phase maintenance schedules would be discarded. Some time compliance maintenance schedules, such as an engine change after X flight hrs, would be delayed, but not entirely discarded. Platform reliability is critical if the mission is expeditionary where the longer the physical logistics distance, the greater the vulnerability of that supply chain.

Platform reliability must have few, preferably zero, system errors that 'Cannot be duplicated' or 'Retest OK'.









Aircraft Avionic System Maintenance Cannot Duplicate and Retest-OK Analytical Source Analysis.


This study focuses on the aircraft avionic maintenance problems of cannot duplicate CND and retest-ok RTOK for three sampled F-16 wings. Analytical and survey methods are used to evaluate four hypothesis in an attempt to determine causes of CND and RTOK occurrences and evaluate if they point to...



apps.dtic.mil





This study focuses on the aircraft avionic maintenance problems of cannot duplicate CND and retest-ok RTOK for three sampled F-16 wings.​
CND/RTOK events occurs more often than most people think. Even civilian airliners have them. What happens is that the pilot write up the jet but Maintenance cannot find the error, so the jet is taken off MC status for further investigation. Avionics produce the most CND/RTOK write-ups. Other systems such as engine or environmental have more mechanical components in them so they usually produce hard errors. Of course, taking a 20 mm round will definitely produce a hard error no matter what system. CND/RTOK write-ups negatively affects logistics because LRUs that are removed for troubleshooting must be tested before they can returned to the supply chain. Any jet that have intermittent CND/RTOK write-ups in wartime will be removed from the lineup and cannibalized for parts.

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## SQ8

GriffinsRule said:


> I would expect these rates to go back up as their legacy fleet goes through Block 70 standard modernization, which will replace a lot of systems that would be now harder to maintain or get spares for as they are no longer being manufactured.


That would be a given - as systems get older their availability and mission readiness (especially for complicated aircraft) declines.



dbc said:


> again, what does USAF rates have to with the IAF and Rafale? You speak of tangents, and here we are - you took a sharp left and flew off a tangent cliff. I didn't mention any figures, and surely when a detachment commander of the Rafale fleet says the Rafale enjoyed a 100% availability rate during the entirety of the Libya campaign, I'm supposed to ignore that because it upsets you?
> 
> I can't believe you have me defending the Rafale on PDF, if you rather I didn't speak my mind make it so - you have the power.
> 
> Now back to the USAF, and perhaps @gambit can explain this better than I can. Sustaining high peace time availability rates costs money, given most training currencies can now be obtained in a simulator fewer aircraft are needed to made available by the crew for training missions. You may point to the CBO report and say the USAF fleet has poor availability rates and pilots log fewer flight hours. You are right, but the lack of availability may have nothing to do with the reliability of the platform. The truth is since the advent of "rapid roger" operationally deployed units have manipulated these numbers to do whatever makes sense and is operationally relevant, never mind the bean counters in the Pentagon.


Hardly - you shot the tangent on the Rafale versus the J-10 without figures and then went to the USAF, and are now whining about free speech when I am asking for the proof in the pudding?

The Rafale detachment commander may be absolutely right but that comes from a key metric - having the LRUs available to do the rapid turnarounds and age. The 0 hours MTBO you cite for the M-88 comes from its modular structure where a defective module can be taken out without having to put the engine through an overhaul which would be warranted on a F-100. 

However, those modules aren’t cheap nor are they plentiful for which both cases you oddly were defending the Rafale of which you are complaining of. I have no issues with the Rafale having a higher availability because not just that its a mean piece of kit it is brand new. But to cite spares supply from the Chinese or other aspects for which you frankly know nothing about seems dishonest

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## dbc

SQ8 said:


> That would be a given - as systems get older their availability and mission readiness (especially for complicated aircraft) declines.
> 
> 
> Hardly - you shot the tangent on the Rafale versus the J-10 without figures and then went to the USAF, and are now whining about free speech when I am asking for the proof in the pudding?
> 
> The Rafale detachment commander may be absolutely right but that comes from a key metric - having the LRUs available to do the rapid turnarounds and age. The 0 hours MTBO you cite for the M-88 comes from its modular structure where a defective module can be taken out without having to put the engine through an overhaul which would be warranted on a F-100.
> 
> However, those modules aren’t cheap nor are they plentiful for which both cases you oddly were defending the Rafale of which you are complaining of. I have no issues with the Rafale having a higher availability because not just that its a mean piece of kit it is brand new. But to cite spares supply from the Chinese or other aspects for which you frankly know nothing about seems dishonest


I didn't mention the USAF not once until you cited the CBO report - go back and read my post once again. Now, an entire detachment of eight Rafale's maintained a 100% availability rate for two months clocking 2,200 hours in Libya. You have trouble accepting the IAF Rafale's can maintain a 100% availability for three months - my original assertion.

You claim M88 modules were replaced to sustain a 100% availability rate for two months in Libya. There is no evidence to support your claim, the M88-4E is rated for 4000 TAC cycles, unless the engine is at the end of a cycle in the middle of an air campaign there is no reason to replace a module. A six hour air patrol typically clocks 2-3 TAC cycles, while an hour long flight with frequent throttle movements as is typical in close in air to air combat can rack up 10 TAC cycles.FYI, the latest F-16 GE 110 engine is rated at 6,000 TAC cycles. Now, is it so hard to believe that a new M88 engine or an engine that has just returned from the depot can last three months through war time operational tempo without replacement of expensive modules?

As for the Chinese engine you are right, I know nothing about them which is why I tempered my opinion saying "I suspect", Basing my opinion on feedback from Chinese members. Now if you are convinced Chinese engines are on par or superior- tell us why.

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## Signalian

NCADE​NCADE (Network Centric Airborne Defense Element) is a program to develop an air-launched anti-missile interceptor missile using _AMRAAM_ components. The NCADE missile replaces the AIM-120's radar seeker with the IIR (Imaging Infrared) seeker of the AIM-9X _Sidewinder_, and changes the propulsion system to a two-stage rocket. The latter consists of an AIM-120 first stage and a new Aerojet second stage, which can provide a thrust of 0.55 kN (125 lb) for more than 25 seconds. NCADE's airframe, flight control system and aircraft interface are essentially the same as on the AIM-120, making the missile immediately compatible with many existing launch platforms.

*The NCADE missile is intended to intercept short- to medium-range ballistic missiles in the boost, ascent, or terminal phase*. To achieve this, the missile is fired upwards by the first-stage motor in a very steep angle. At high altitude, the IIR seeker can acquire a target, and then the missile will use its long burning second-stage motor for the intercept.

At the time of this writing, the NCADE program is undergoing component tests (propulsion and seeker). No planned timeframe for a test of an all-up NCADE round has been announced so far.


Is there a PL-XX series equivalent under development ?

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Getting better all the time.

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## Deino

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Getting better all the time.
> View attachment 858621




Oh come on ... do your homework and spare us time and bandwidth with any random image you find but do not understand!
What is going better? It shows one of the original J-10B prototypes - most likely in fact even the very first one numbered 1031 and NOT a J-10CE for Pakistan,

As such you cannot deduct anything from it ...

Seems as if you only post random images for getting clicks and +-points! Is this really necessary?

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## arslank03

dbc said:


> I didn't mention the USAF not once until you cited the CBO report - go back and read my post once again. Now, an entire detachment of eight Rafale's maintained a 100% availability rate for two months clocking 2,200 hours in Libya. You have trouble accepting the IAF Rafale's can maintain a 100% availability for three months - my original assertion.
> 
> You claim M88 modules were replaced to sustain a 100% availability rate for two months in Libya. There is no evidence to support your claim, the M88-4E is rated for 4000 TAC cycles, unless the engine is at the end of a cycle in the middle of an air campaign there is no reason to replace a module. A six hour air patrol typically clocks 2-3 TAC cycles, while an hour long flight with frequent throttle movements as is typical in close in air to air combat can rack up 10 TAC cycles.FYI, the latest F-16 GE 110 engine is rated at 6,000 TAC cycles. Now, is it so hard to believe that a new M88 engine or an engine that has just returned from the depot can last three months through war time operational tempo without replacement of expensive modules?
> 
> As for the Chinese engine you are right, I know nothing about them which is why I tempered my opinion saying "I suspect", Basing my opinion on feedback from Chinese members. Now if you are convinced Chinese engines are on par or superior- tell us why.




Source for your claim of 100% availability? thanks

Edit:

Found your source, it says they "logged zero no fly days"... they being the rafale detachment. This is very different from 100% availability lol. If the detachment logged zero no-fly days, that means there was no days where zero aircraft were available. If they logged 100% availability then this is a claim that would have been screamed from the mountains by dassault.

Please try reading and comprehending what you parrot, before spreading it like gospel, as it is incorrect.


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## GriffinsRule

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Getting better all the time.
> View attachment 858621


If anything, it shows how poor the A-G capability is for this fighter, even worse when you consider its a delta wing.


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## dbc

rgfegasrg said:


> Source for your claim of 100% availability? thanks
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Found your source, it says they "logged zero no fly days"... they being the rafale detachment. This is very different from 100% availability lol. If the detachment logged zero no-fly days, that means there was no days where zero aircraft were available. If they logged 100% availability then this is a claim that would have been screamed from the mountains by dassault.
> 
> Please try reading and comprehending what you parrot, before spreading it like gospel, as it is incorrect.



comprehend this..


in just over two months of operations, no missions were aborted because of aircraft unavailability, and detachment commander Lt. Col. Pierre G. says that the *availability rate is close to 100%.*









Libya, Rafale in combat "for War Dummies"


This is a must read article written by Giovanni de Briganti for Defense Aerospace -Reproduced here for the record- RAFALETOWN, Corsica ...




rafalenews.blogspot.com

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## Windjammer



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## m52k85

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 859060


old batch or new batch?


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## blain2

GriffinsRule said:


> If anything, it shows how poor the A-G capability is for this fighter, even worse when you consider its a delta wing.


I don't think Pakistan purchased the J-10 for its surface attack capability. It would be employed in air superiority role and there it has a pretty impressive load-out.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Windjammer



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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> If anything, it shows how poor the A-G capability is for this fighter, even worse when you consider its a delta wing.



Hi,

There are around 250 other aircraft for ground strike capability---why does the J10 needs to be in the running for that.

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## araz

m52k85 said:


> old batch or new batch?


The first and only batch received so far.
A


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## MIRauf

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There are around 250 other aircraft for ground strike capability---why does the J10 needs to be in the running for that.


Cause in the eyes of some, PAF is a multi-role fighter force at this time and age and if an induction can't be true / impressive multi-role then it doesn't fit the bill.

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## MastanKhan

MIRauf said:


> Cause in the eyes of some, PAF is a multi-role fighter force at this time and age and if an induction can't be true / impressive multi-role then it doesn't fit the bill.


Hi,

Thank you. You are correct---first major major change in the thinking of the Paf that has been applied in practice as well..

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## johncliu88

Did Pak order any dual seater J-10's?


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## Signalian

blain2 said:


> I don't think Pakistan purchased the J-10 for its surface attack capability.


Disappointing. This would mean JFT's A2G arsenal has to grow.


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## GriffinsRule

blain2 said:


> I don't think Pakistan purchased the J-10 for its surface attack capability. It would be employed in air superiority role and there it has a pretty impressive load-out.


Yes and no. It's A-A loadout is just average of any medium sized fighter, ie 6 missiles and tanks not impressive but just standard/expected.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There are around 250 other aircraft for ground strike capability---why does the J10 needs to be in the running for that.


Every aircraft has to be in the running for that. J-10 will be too. It's multirole.


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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> Yes and no. It's A-A loadout is just average of any medium sized fighter, ie 6 missiles and tanks not impressive but just standard/expected.
> 
> 
> Every aircraft has to be in the running for that. J-10 will be too. It's multirole.



Hi,

You have answered your own question.



johncliu88 said:


> Did Pak order any dual seater J-10's?


Hi,

Paf used to disclose these things years ago---but for now---they have shutdown the leak.

We will know when we see them.

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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You have answered your own question.
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Paf used to disclose these things years ago---but for now---they have shutdown the leak.
> 
> We will know when we see them.


I never asked a question.


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## Signalian

GriffinsRule said:


> Every aircraft has to be in the running for that. J-10 will be too. It's multirole.


PAF prefers to acquire MRFs

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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> I never asked a question.



Hi,

Ok---it was a statement seeking an answer---or input.


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## GriffinsRule

Signalian said:


> PAF prefers to acquire MRFs


Yes, though J-10 is lacking in it's A-G role vs it's contemporaries. Hopefully it will get there as PAF can't afford to have niche role fighters.


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## lcloo

J10C is a multi-role fighter jet. You don't see much of the A-G weapon configuration is because Chinese airforce have more than 800 in total of J16, JH7A dedicated strike jets and H6 bombers for air to ground strike roles, J10A/B/C (and J20) are primary used in air-superiority in PLAAF.

J10CE can be turned into A-G configuration any time, if PAF had purchase the A-G missile/bombs as well as electronic pods.

J10B with A-G configuration on static display on 2019 PLAAF Open Day in Chanchun, China. Weapon load shown : A-A missile, A-G missile, LGB bombs, targeting pod and electronic counter measure pod.

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## Signalian

GriffinsRule said:


> Yes, though J-10 is lacking in it's A-G role vs it's contemporaries. Hopefully it will get there as PAF can't afford to have niche role fighters.


Any comparison of J-10 done with JF-17 and F-16C regarding range ?

H-2, H-4, Ra'ad carrying capability ?


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## ghazi52

..,.,

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## Princeps Senatus

GriffinsRule said:


> Yes, though J-10 is lacking in it's A-G role vs it's contemporaries.


How so?

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## blain2

Signalian said:


> Disappointing. This would mean JFT's A2G arsenal has to grow.


I did not mean to suggest that it cannot be used in that role. I think PAF see the J-10 as multi/omni role platform.

My point is that the primary purpose of the J-10 is to provide persistence in the air for our offensive fleet/strike packages. By persistence, I mean greater loiter times, less IFR meet ups with the tankers in hot situations, more missiles (both BVR and WVR) and a massive AESA to see much further out beyond the capabilities of JF-17. The simple calculation for the JF-17s was that their air to air loadout is at a disadvantage in the face of Indian Rafale induction. Trying to put 2 PL-15s would impact the performance of the JF-17 significantly along with a couple of WVR AAMs. This is where J-10 provides the advantage. It has more range, can carry more offensive standoff missiles and would allow JF-17s to be used in the same way the USAF uses the F-15 and F-16 combination. The former to use its large load carrying capacity with BVR missiles to whittle down adversarial aircraft numbers and allowing the F-16s more freedom of action.

In reality, the J-10 could even do the same for our F-16 fleet since its reach with AIM-120C would also be somewhat limited compared to PL-15s.

For surface attack/air to ground missions, J-10 is definitely an option, however we have F-16s with better targeting pods and also the growing armed UCAV fleet.

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## blain2

Trango Towers said:


> Under Indian maintenence...yes sure it can


I think we should assume the following:

a) Rafales bring new maintenance methodology/systems to the IAF which would improve availability/readiness.
b) The best aircrews and maintenance personnel would be assigned to the Rafale sqns so their efficiency rates would be higher.
c) When platforms are new, they have less wear and tear and can be more highly available.
d) No problems with supply of spares.

When you consider all of the above, and other factors as well, I believe Rafale will be a highly available platform for the IAF.

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## Cool_Soldier

New Batch 22-103
22-104
looks cool

where is JF 17 Block 3 ?

Its been 1 and half years and no batch was officially delivered.


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## blain2

Trango Towers said:


> Assume that Indians live on the moon as well


Perhaps.
I think it would be best to not underestimate.

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## Trango Towers

blain2 said:


> Perhaps.
> I think it would be best to not underestimate.


No need reality is evident


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

blain2 said:


> I did not mean to suggest that it cannot be used in that role. I think PAF see the J-10 as multi/omni role platform.
> 
> My point is that the primary purpose of the J-10 is to provide persistence in the air for our offensive fleet/strike packages. By persistence, I mean greater loiter times, less IFR meet ups with the tankers in hot situations, more missiles (both BVR and WVR) and a massive AESA to see much further out beyond the capabilities of JF-17. The simple calculation for the JF-17s was that their air to air loadout is at a disadvantage in the face of Indian Rafale induction. Trying to put 2 PL-15s would impact the performance of the JF-17 significantly along with a couple of WVR AAMs. This is where J-10 provides the advantage. It has more range, can carry more offensive standoff missiles and would allow JF-17s to be used in the same way the USAF uses the F-15 and F-16 combination. The former to use its large load carrying capacity with BVR missiles to whittle down adversarial aircraft numbers and allowing the F-16s more freedom of action.
> 
> In reality, the J-10 could even do the same for our F-16 fleet since its reach with AIM-120C would also be somewhat limited compared to PL-15s.
> 
> For surface attack/air to ground missions, J-10 is definitely an option, however we have F-16s with better targeting pods and also the growing armed UCAV fleet.


I agree. I think, in its initial years, the PAF will primarily use the J-10CE in the air-to-air role. One major point of this purchase was to plugin the gap left by the lack of F-16s (the US isn't letting us get used A/Bs nor is it helping us co-finance the new Vs). When engaging India, our F-16s are primarily an A2A asset. So, for the short-term, the J-10CEs are meant to shore up our ability to thwart the Rafale threat in A2A.

Likewise, the PAF is clearly tuning the JF-17 for the A2G/S role. Already, the 'old' Block-I is capable of deploying the C-802A AShM, for example. Likewise, the Block-IIs can support the C-802A AShM as well as the IREK PGB and LD-10 ARM. The next phase is integrating the Ra'ad-I/II, REK-III (a rocket-assisted glide-bomb similar to the H-4), and possibly even SMASH or HD-1A supersonic-cruising AShM to the JF-17 Block-III and JF-17B. Funds permitting, the PAF can do some crazier stuff with the JF-17s, like fitting the Block-Is with the GB6 to give it a JSOW-type capability (a stand-off range bomblet dispenser for anti-armour ops), YJ-9E air-to-ground missiles, etc.

That said, the PAF wouldn't invest in a net-new fighter asset without committing to at least 90 units for the long run. Be it the Mirage III/5, F-16, or even JF-17, the PAF has always set a minimum 90-unit requirement for any new major fighter asset. I think we can realistically expect the J-10CE fleet to grow to over 90 units through the rest of this decade (the PAF can order in incremental batches). So, we might see some J-10CEs become available for the A2G/S role.

OTOH, I'm still not sure how much-added utility you'd get from an A2G-configured J-10CE versus the JF-17. Sure, there's a difference, but it isn't as game-changing as getting that big twin-engine asset like the F-15 or Su-30. Even the PLAAF is primarily leaning on those larger designs for the strike role. So, yes, a JF-17 carrying 2 big SOWs or 4 small SOWs isn't ideal, but it gets the job done in our current environment (India is literally "right there"). Not only that, but the PAF can field JF-17s in ample numbers so that it has more strike-capable jets on hand, and can source them relatively more affordably.

Overall, the PAF isn't going to get its 'ideal' strike platform until the NGFA comes online. Be it the Turkish TFX or Chinese J-35/21, the PAF itself said it wants a twin-engine fighter as its NGFA. I think the PAF set the twin-engine need because it wanted a "proper" strike-capable and maritime-capable design. So, from the 2030s, the PAF's "offensive edge" will be a combination of the J-10CE (in the A2A role) and the NGFA (in the A2G/S role).

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## Bin Laden

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I agree. I think, in its initial years, the PAF will primarily use the J-10CE in the air-to-air role. One major point of this purchase was to plugin the gap left by the lack of F-16s (the US isn't letting us get used A/Bs nor is it helping us co-finance the new Vs). When engaging India, our F-16s are primarily an A2A asset. So, for the short-term, the J-10CEs are meant to shore up our ability to thwart the Rafale threat in A2A.
> 
> Likewise, the PAF is clearly tuning the JF-17 for the A2G/S role. Already, the 'old' Block-I is capable of deploying the C-802A AShM, for example. Likewise, the Block-IIs can support the C-802A AShM as well as the IREK PGB and LD-10 ARM. The next phase is integrating the Ra'ad-I/II, REK-III (a rocket-assisted glide-bomb similar to the H-4), and possibly even SMASH or HD-1A supersonic-cruising AShM to the JF-17 Block-III and JF-17B. Funds permitting, the PAF can do some crazier stuff with the JF-17s, like fitting the Block-Is with the GB6 to give it a JSOW-type capability (a stand-off range bomblet dispenser for anti-armour ops), YJ-9E air-to-ground missiles, etc.
> 
> That said, the PAF wouldn't invest in a net-new fighter asset without committing to at least 90 units for the long run. Be it the Mirage III/5, F-16, or even JF-17, the PAF has always set a minimum 90-unit requirement for any new major fighter asset. I think we can realistically expect the J-10CE fleet to grow to over 90 units through the rest of this decade (the PAF can order in incremental batches). So, we might see some J-10CEs become available for the A2G/S role.
> 
> OTOH, I'm still not sure how much-added utility you'd get from an A2G-configured J-10CE versus the JF-17. Sure, there's a difference, but it isn't as game-changing as getting that big twin-engine asset like the F-15 or Su-30. Even the PLAAF is primarily leaning on those larger designs for the strike role. So, yes, a JF-17 carrying 2 big SOWs or 4 small SOWs isn't ideal, but it gets the job done in our current environment (India is literally "right there"). Not only that, but the PAF can field JF-17s in ample numbers so that it has more strike-capable jets on hand, and can source them relatively more affordably.
> 
> Overall, the PAF isn't going to get its 'ideal' strike platform until the NGFA comes online. Be it the Turkish TFX or Chinese J-35/21, the PAF itself said it wants a twin-engine fighter as its NGFA. I think the PAF set the twin-engine need because it wanted a "proper" strike-capable and maritime-capable design. So, from the 2030s, the PAF's "offensive edge" will be a combination of the J-10CE (in the A2A role) and the NGFA (in the A2G/S role).



Newbie question :
How many jf17's (block I) are still in their orignal configuration, Weren't they all upgraded to Block II spec?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bin Laden said:


> Newbie question :
> How many jf17's (block I) are still in their orignal configuration, Weren't they all upgraded to Block II spec?


I'm not sure there's a full upgrade track to Block-II. The Block-I may have gotten some of the Block-II's subsystems, but overall, each JF-17 block is structurally different.

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I agree. I think, in its initial years, the PAF will primarily use the J-10CE in the air-to-air role. One major point of this purchase was to plugin the gap left by the lack of F-16s (the US isn't letting us get used A/Bs nor is it helping us co-finance the new Vs). When engaging India, our F-16s are primarily an A2A asset. So, for the short-term, the J-10CEs are meant to shore up our ability to thwart the Rafale threat in A2A.
> 
> Likewise, the PAF is clearly tuning the JF-17 for the A2G/S role. Already, the 'old' Block-I is capable of deploying the C-802A AShM, for example. Likewise, the Block-IIs can support the C-802A AShM as well as the IREK PGB and LD-10 ARM. The next phase is integrating the Ra'ad-I/II, REK-III (a rocket-assisted glide-bomb similar to the H-4), and possibly even SMASH or HD-1A supersonic-cruising AShM to the JF-17 Block-III and JF-17B. Funds permitting, the PAF can do some crazier stuff with the JF-17s, like fitting the Block-Is with the GB6 to give it a JSOW-type capability (a stand-off range bomblet dispenser for anti-armour ops), YJ-9E air-to-ground missiles, etc.
> 
> That said, the PAF wouldn't invest in a net-new fighter asset without committing to at least 90 units for the long run. Be it the Mirage III/5, F-16, or even JF-17, the PAF has always set a minimum 90-unit requirement for any new major fighter asset. I think we can realistically expect the J-10CE fleet to grow to over 90 units through the rest of this decade (the PAF can order in incremental batches). So, we might see some J-10CEs become available for the A2G/S role.
> 
> OTOH, I'm still not sure how much-added utility you'd get from an A2G-configured J-10CE versus the JF-17. Sure, there's a difference, but it isn't as game-changing as getting that big twin-engine asset like the F-15 or Su-30. Even the PLAAF is primarily leaning on those larger designs for the strike role. So, yes, a JF-17 carrying 2 big SOWs or 4 small SOWs isn't ideal, but it gets the job done in our current environment (India is literally "right there"). Not only that, but the PAF can field JF-17s in ample numbers so that it has more strike-capable jets on hand, and can source them relatively more affordably.
> 
> Overall, the PAF isn't going to get its 'ideal' strike platform until the NGFA comes online. Be it the Turkish TFX or Chinese J-35/21, the PAF itself said it wants a twin-engine fighter as its NGFA. I think the PAF set the twin-engine need because it wanted a "proper" strike-capable and maritime-capable design. So, from the 2030s, the PAF's "offensive edge" will be a combination of the J-10CE (in the A2A role) and the NGFA (in the A2G/S role).


Hi,

People are forgetting----the JF17 was manufactured for ground strike primarily and not for air superiority.

Someone can dig up old statements by the PAF stalwarts.

You are correct about J10---that it does not bring a lot more in ground strike capability & the difference in ability between the two is not much.

With modern day smart weapons---JF17 will do the job right.

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## GriffinsRule

Signalian said:


> Any comparison of J-10 done with JF-17 and F-16C regarding range ?
> 
> H-2, H-4, Ra'ad carrying capability ?


H-2 and H-4 are antiquated imo and not the best option for newer aircraft, unless their guidance systems can be updated. Raad would be an ideal candidate, however, unless we see its integration and operationalization in PAF its hard to say. I feel its still an ongoing technology demonstrator program.

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## SABRE

GriffinsRule said:


> H-2 and H-4 are antiquated imo and not the best option for newer aircraft, unless their guidance systems can be updated. Raad would be an ideal candidate, however, unless we see its integration and operationalization in PAF its hard to say. I feel its still an ongoing technology demonstrator program.



Ra'ad and Ra'ad-2 are mostly treated as strategic assets also.


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## Windjammer



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## GriffinsRule

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 859886


Chinese bird, not PAF


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## tphuang

Signalian said:


> Any comparison of J-10 done with JF-17 and F-16C regarding range ?
> 
> H-2, H-4, Ra'ad carrying capability ?


A few years ago, j10c brochure showed it having 1240 km combat radius with A2A refueling and 2900km ferry range. I'm not sure what it's combat radius without refueling it is. It would depend on flight profile and payload obviously. I'd expect it have longer combat radius than JF-17 and F-16C


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

tphuang said:


> A few years ago, j10c brochure showed it having 1240 km combat radius with A2A refueling and 2900km ferry range. I'm not sure what it's combat radius without refueling it is. It would depend on flight profile and payload obviously. I'd expect it have longer combat radius than JF-17 and F-16C


The F-16C/D Block-52+ may have more due to the CFTs.

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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

EID MUBARAK FROM THE GUARDIANS OF THE SKY

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## Windjammer



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## shofotolavski

https://weibo.com/1617093763/LBVD3165U


J-10 may be experimenting with adding electronics

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## syedmunib

shofotolavski said:


> https://weibo.com/1617093763/LBVD3165U
> 
> 
> J-10 may be experimenting with adding electronics



Looks more like a added fuel capacity.


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## shofotolavski

syedmunib said:


> Looks more like a added fuel capacity.


To sum up your analysis, there are two possibilities
1. Due to the addition of electronic equipment, the original shell cannot accommodate it. However, because it is an old Russian-made engine, it may be a temporary modification of the manufacturer's test aircraft.
2. The arms sales license for Iran has been released. It is possible that Iran wants to equip Russian-made engines. The added equipment is a formal modification rather than a temporary test.（Iran came to China to negotiate the purchase of J-10, but felt that the voyage was too small, so it may just add a little fuel tank, or it may be）


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## [--Leo--]

is link-17 installed on J-10CP?


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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I agree. I think, in its initial years, the PAF will primarily use the J-10CE in the air-to-air role. One major point of this purchase was to plugin the gap left by the lack of F-16s (the US isn't letting us get used A/Bs nor is it helping us co-finance the new Vs). When engaging India, our F-16s are primarily an A2A asset. So, for the short-term, the J-10CEs are meant to shore up our ability to thwart the Rafale threat in A2A.
> 
> Likewise, the PAF is clearly tuning the JF-17 for the A2G/S role. Already, the 'old' Block-I is capable of deploying the C-802A AShM, for example. Likewise, the Block-IIs can support the C-802A AShM as well as the IREK PGB and LD-10 ARM. The next phase is integrating the Ra'ad-I/II, REK-III (a rocket-assisted glide-bomb similar to the H-4), and possibly even SMASH or HD-1A supersonic-cruising AShM to the JF-17 Block-III and JF-17B. Funds permitting, the PAF can do some crazier stuff with the JF-17s, like fitting the Block-Is with the GB6 to give it a JSOW-type capability (a stand-off range bomblet dispenser for anti-armour ops), YJ-9E air-to-ground missiles, etc.
> 
> That said, the PAF wouldn't invest in a net-new fighter asset without committing to at least 90 units for the long run. Be it the Mirage III/5, F-16, or even JF-17, the PAF has always set a minimum 90-unit requirement for any new major fighter asset. I think we can realistically expect the J-10CE fleet to grow to over 90 units through the rest of this decade (the PAF can order in incremental batches). So, we might see some J-10CEs become available for the A2G/S role.
> 
> OTOH, I'm still not sure how much-added utility you'd get from an A2G-configured J-10CE versus the JF-17. Sure, there's a difference, but it isn't as game-changing as getting that big twin-engine asset like the F-15 or Su-30. Even the PLAAF is primarily leaning on those larger designs for the strike role. So, yes, a JF-17 carrying 2 big SOWs or 4 small SOWs isn't ideal, but it gets the job done in our current environment (India is literally "right there"). Not only that, but the PAF can field JF-17s in ample numbers so that it has more strike-capable jets on hand, and can source them relatively more affordably.
> 
> Overall, the PAF isn't going to get its 'ideal' strike platform until the NGFA comes online. Be it the Turkish TFX or Chinese J-35/21, the PAF itself said it wants a twin-engine fighter as its NGFA. I think the PAF set the twin-engine need because it wanted a "proper" strike-capable and maritime-capable design. So, from the 2030s, the PAF's "offensive edge" will be a combination of the J-10CE (in the A2A role) and the NGFA (in the A2G/S role).


Do you see TFX or J31 coming as twin engine within decade on PAF colors ?


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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

,.,.,.,

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Ali_Baba

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 860489



Could J35 or TFX / Azm ever fit in that shelter ??


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## Raja Porus

How to train your dragon

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## syedmunib

Desert Fox 1 said:


> How to train your dragon
> View attachment 862891


F7 in the background & J10A. Seems like an old exercise image.

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## air marshal



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## johncliu88

shofotolavski said:


> https://weibo.com/1617093763/LBVD3165U
> 
> 
> J-10 may be experimenting with adding electronics


A video clip says it is a proto type for Pak airforce for more fuel.


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## air marshal



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## fatman17



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## ghazi52

Any possibility for PAF...









J-10D or J-10CY a new variant of J-10 fighter jet based on J-10C fighter jet (Serial no. 701) with Enlarged Dosal Spine (EDS) & Russian AL-31FN series 3 TVC engine.

Jul 20, 2022

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## Readerdefence

ghazi52 said:


> Any possibility for PAF...
> 
> View attachment 863593
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-10D or J-10CY a new variant of J-10 fighter jet based on J-10C fighter jet (Serial no. 701) with Enlarged Dosal Spine (EDS) & Russian AL-31FN series 3 TVC engine.
> 
> Jul 20, 2022


Hi I doubt it’s TVC as this been manufactured a while ago beside this if it’s TVC no point of Chinese inventing their own for later batch of 
The AL-31FN variant was developed by Salyut to power the Chengdu J-10, with key differences including slightly more thrust and gearbox relocated from the top to the bottom of the engine. Later J-10 variants and production lots were equipped with the improved AL-31FN series 3. In addition to selling AL-31FN to China, Salyut developed improved variants of the AL-31F with increased thrust and reliability. The AL-31FM1, also referred to as the AL-31F series 42, had improved MTBO and thrust increased to 29,800 pounds-force (132.4 kN). Subsequent developments by Salyut include the AL-31FM2 with a larger diameter fan and increased turbine inlet temperature, and a proposed AL-31FM3 with additional fan and core improvements. Initial production Chengdu J-20 are powered by the AL-31FM2. Salyut's developments of the AL-31 would result in serious disputes with Lyulka-Saturn's successor corporation NPO Saturn, which considers them unsanctioned and in violation of intellectual property rights.[2]
if you have more knowledge please do share 
thank you

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

ghazi52 said:


> Any possibility for PAF...


*YES PLEASE* 🤞🤲

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## Deino

ghazi52 said:


> Any possibility for PAF...
> 
> View attachment 863593
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-10D or J-10CY a new variant of J-10 fighter jet based on J-10C fighter jet (Serial no. 701) with Enlarged Dosal Spine (EDS) & Russian AL-31FN series 3 TVC engine.
> 
> Jul 20, 2022




No, for the Seth time! This is NOT a TVC-nozzle, just plain and simple a standard AL-31FN. 

I really don‘t know why this BS is still reported in the media!

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## JohnWick

Deino said:


> No, for the Seth time! This is NOT a TVC-nozzle, just plain and simple a standard AL-31FN.
> 
> I really don‘t know why this BS is still reported in the media!


@Deino looks like lots of F-16 block 52
Data is used in making this ?


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## shofotolavski

Available for sale in a few years

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## johncliu88

shofotolavski said:


> View attachment 864153
> 
> Available for sale in a few years


Wow! This is the clearest picture of the bird. Thanks for sharing it. Now it can be confirmed that it has no side missile bays.


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## Abid123

shofotolavski said:


> View attachment 864158
> 
> 
> Available for sale in a few years


J-31/J-35?


----------



## shofotolavski

Abid123 said:


> J-31/J-35?


The early model is FC-31, the aircraft carrier version is J-35, the body and wings are not the same as before
No. 350003. With a pitot tube, the color of the ground crew vest is the same as that of the aircraft carrier operator. It should be simulating the maintenance test on the aircraft carrier.


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## siegecrossbow

syedmunib said:


> F7 in the background & J10A. Seems like an old exercise image.



One of the earlier Shaheens for sure. China stopped sending J-10A to those.


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## Ali_Baba

shofotolavski said:


> View attachment 864158
> 
> 
> Available for sale in a few years


The airforce variant if it ever gets built may get a look in but i suspect that PAF has its heart set on the TF-X.


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## Readerdefence

Ali_Baba said:


> The airforce variant if it ever gets built may get a look in but i suspect that PAF has its heart set on the TF-X.


Hi you can’t be sure about TFX as a heart set now im not saying PAF ont be able to get it but j35 looks like will be more matured then the TFX as China already have knowledge and know how to operate a 5th generation
bit it all depend when China is really ready to start its export as they might need these for their ACCs before really start exporting them
I’m sure same is the case with Turkish they want to raise their own couple of squads before the fighter is eligible for serial production that’s like if it’s asap in 2026?
your input will be appreciated if you have some better knowledge about TFX production
thank you
ps @Hakikat ve Hikmet


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Readerdefence said:


> Hi you can’t be sure about TFX as a heart set now im not saying PAF ont be able to get it but j35 looks like will be more matured then the TFX as China already have knowledge and know how to operate a 5th generation
> bit it all depend when China is really ready to start its export as they might need these for their ACCs before really start exporting them
> I’m sure same is the case with Turkish they want to raise their own couple of squads before the fighter is eligible for serial production that’s like if it’s asap in 2026?
> your input will be appreciated if you have some better knowledge about TFX production
> thank you
> ps @Hakikat ve Hikmet


I think the full fledged production will start by 2030....

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## Beast

Ali_Baba said:


> The airforce variant if it ever gets built may get a look in but i suspect that PAF has its heart set on the TF-X.


I doubt PAF want the saga of engine restricted project like T-129K again. TF-X engine re export is a big question mark. Not to mention domestic engine is even a bigger question mark.

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## 帅的一匹

Beast said:


> I doubt PAF want the saga of engine restricted project like T-129K again. TF-X engine re export is a big question mark. Not to mention domestic engine is even a bigger question mark.


Turkey is trying hard, they need time.


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## Beast

帅的一匹 said:


> Turkey is trying hard, they need time.


Time is one thing. Money, resources , industries and talent in area of aeroengine.

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## python-000

shofotolavski said:


> View attachment 864158
> 
> 
> Available for sale in a few years


*LOOKS GREAT*...

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## GreatHanWarrior

Beast said:


> Time is one thing. Money, resources , industries and talent in area of aeroengine.


and turkey's industrial chain is incomplete.


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## FuturePAF

Beast said:


> I doubt PAF want the saga of engine restricted project like T-129K again. TF-X engine re export is a big question mark. Not to mention domestic engine is even a bigger question mark.


Perhaps Turkey will go for a western/domestic engine and Pakistan would go for a Chinese engine, as it already operates the WS-10 on the J-10? Also, Pakistan procuring the T-FX doesn’t mean it doesn’t also want to induct an export variant of the J-35. The PAF has 75 F-16s to eventually replace as well as hundreds of Mirages, F-7s, and older JF-17s by the time these two 5th generation fighters could be available for procurement.

Cant find the article at the moment, but if I remember correctly, the PAF chief said he wanted an all 5th generation force. The only likely way that would be achieved is a reduced signature JF-17 or J-10, loyal wingman drones from either Turkey or China (or both), and both the T-FX and the J-35. This is all the more reason Pakistan needs to get its political stability and economics back on track, but I digress. Therefore the J-10CE is a stopgap IMHO, a much needed one but still a stopgap, to fill in what the PAF had hoped the Block 72 would have given them; a decent 4.5 Gen AESA equipped frontline fighter for the 2020s.

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## araz

Readerdefence said:


> Hi you can’t be sure about TFX as a heart set now im not saying PAF ont be able to get it but j35 looks like will be more matured then the TFX as China already have knowledge and know how to operate a 5th generation
> bit it all depend when China is really ready to start its export as they might need these for their ACCs before really start exporting them
> I’m sure same is the case with Turkish they want to raise their own couple of squads before the fighter is eligible for serial production that’s like if it’s asap in 2026?
> your input will be appreciated if you have some better knowledge about TFX production
> thank you
> ps @Hakikat ve Hikmet


The Turkish ventures are dependent on provision of engines which are ITAR free. This remains a bugbear for acquisition of Turkish platforms. PAA has been stung badly by the T129 fiasco to be drawn in unless:
A. The Turk brothers are successful in manufacturing engines in house within the next decade/providing an ITAR free engine.
B. PAF can acquire an engine which can be incorporated within the PAF TFX. Till this time PAF will test everything under the sun and if the F31/35 reaches maturity and fits PAF requirements, it will go for it.
A

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## Zarvan

Guys please let it remain a discussion of only and only J-10 C. Not of J-31. For J-31 and its potential induction in Pakistan or not a separate thread should start.

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## Readerdefence

araz said:


> The Turkish ventures are dependent on provision of engines which are ITAR free. This remains a bugbear for acquisition of Turkish platforms. PAA has been stung badly by the T129 fiasco to be drawn in unless:
> A. The Turk brothers are successful in manufacturing engines in house within the next decade/providing an ITAR free engine.
> B. PAF can acquire an engine which can be incorporated within the PAF TFX. Till this time PAF will test everything under the sun and if the F31/35 reaches maturity and fits PAF requirements, it will go for it.
> A


Hi tah is for your detailed reply I’m totally agreed with your point A about t129 fiasco about your part B I’m hopeful about j/35 maturity in a year or two max as China has to field one of the stealth on their ACCs in quick manner being a holder of a stealth fighter already I’m sure they will live up to their mark of getting operational the second one asap now PAF or PN problem will arise more once F18 or Rafale on Indian ACC coz J10 can’t be able to handle that much pressure from both side of Indian arm
& if PAF is waiting like induction of Rafale in Indian airforce then induct J10c then they ball can go towards Indian induction of stealth before Pakistan & then Pakistan request for J35 as I have asked one of our Turkish member on this forum and his reply about TFX is 2030 which is far ahead as compare to j35
your further input will be appreciated
thank you
@mods if like to remove and post it in appropriate thread thx


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## Ali_Baba

Beast said:


> Time is one thing. Money, resources , industries and talent in area of aeroengine.



All of which Turkey is demonstrating that it has or is getting ...


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## Beast

Ali_Baba said:


> All of which Turkey is demonstrating that it has or is getting ...


Like what? Replacing US turboshaft with Turkey made and deliver the T129K to PA? Those small turbofan which even Iran has demonstrated to made are nothing compare to heavy helo or fighter jets engine needed. 

Dont expect Turkey to succeed to deliver given their current economy condition and limited resources of their industries.

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## serenity

Stealthified J-10 or JF-17 will not be 5th generation. Neither of those things would be able to supercruise and have internal bays and that's even if bothered with which no doubt would not be bothered with since stealthifying a 4th generation fighter is simply too complicated to be worth it.

PAF wanting a totally 5th generation airforce can only happen in a time when basically 5th generation fighters are next in line to be retired in the same way J-7 production stopped and airframes are getting retired. To have full 5th gen airforce means retiring even 4th gen fighters which many airforces in the world still don't even have.

Drones are not fighters and even Dark Sword isn't a total substitute for a manned 5th generation fighter.

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## LKJ86

serenity said:


> PAF wanting a totally 5th generation airforce can only happen in a time when basically 5th generation fighters are next in line to be retired in the same way J-7 production stopped and airframes are getting retired. To have full 5th gen airforce means retiring even 4th gen fighters which many airforces in the world still don't even have.


It would be a good choice for PAF to cooperate with PLAAF to develop a land-based version of J-35.

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## serenity

LKJ86 said:


> It would be a good choice for PAF to cooperate with PLAAF to develop a land-based version of J-35.



It would be but Pakistan doesn't have the funding to pay SAC to finish development of FC-31 into a land based fighter. J-35 is a totally different fighter. What's available for sale is FC-31 which is a basis of J-35 but the cost to go from FC-31 to J-35 or from FC-31 to JF-xy for Pakistan is going to be enormous and surely China is not paying for another's fighter.

Even if Pakistan wanted to do this, is it smart to let a friend spend money it shouldn't be spending on a fighter it doesn't quite need?

India has no 5th generation fighters.


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## 帅的一匹

serenity said:


> It would be but Pakistan doesn't have the funding to pay SAC to finish development of FC-31 into a land based fighter. J-35 is a totally different fighter. What's available for sale is FC-31 which is a basis of J-35 but the cost to go from FC-31 to J-35 or from FC-31 to JF-xy for Pakistan is going to be enormous and surely China is not paying for another's fighter.
> 
> Even if Pakistan wanted to do this, is it smart to let a friend spend money it shouldn't be spending on a fighter it doesn't quite need?
> 
> India has no 5th generation fighters.


Maybe PLA Air Force and navy wanna induct land version of J35.

Anything is possible.

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## Wergeland

photo posted on weibo, i got from navalnews aticle posted here on PDF on a thread by @OverandOut


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## MH.Yang

FuturePAF said:


> Perhaps Turkey will go for a western/domestic engine and Pakistan would go for a Chinese engine, as it already operates the WS-10 on the J-10? Also, Pakistan procuring the T-FX doesn’t mean it doesn’t also want to induct an export variant of the J-35. The PAF has 75 F-16s to eventually replace as well as hundreds of Mirages, F-7s, and older JF-17s by the time these two 5th generation fighters could be available for procurement.
> 
> Cant find the article at the moment, but if I remember correctly, the PAF chief said he wanted an all 5th generation force. The only likely way that would be achieved is a reduced signature JF-17 or J-10, loyal wingman drones from either Turkey or China (or both), and both the T-FX and the J-35. This is all the more reason Pakistan needs to get its political stability and economics back on track, but I digress. Therefore the J-10CE is a stopgap IMHO, a much needed one but still a stopgap, to fill in what the PAF had hoped the Block 72 would have given them; a decent 4.5 Gen AESA equipped frontline fighter for the 2020s.



All 5G? 

Dude, even Americans cannot achieve the goal you mentioned for a long time.

First, let's do all 4G.

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## FuturePAF

serenity said:


> Stealthified J-10 or JF-17 will not be 5th generation. Neither of those things would be able to supercruise and have internal bays and that's even if bothered with which no doubt would not be bothered with since stealthifying a 4th generation fighter is simply too complicated to be worth it.
> 
> PAF wanting a totally 5th generation airforce can only happen in a time when basically 5th generation fighters are next in line to be retired in the same way J-7 production stopped and airframes are getting retired. To have full 5th gen airforce means retiring even 4th gen fighters which many airforces in the world still don't even have.
> 
> Drones are not fighters and even Dark Sword isn't a total substitute for a manned 5th generation fighter.


Perhaps a reduced RCS J-10 may not be considered fully 5th generation, but it could go a long way into making an affordable competitive platform for the long term backbone of operators like the PAF. The alternative maybe to cut the fleet size or operate more drones. Drones which may not be able to fully match the air warfare needs to take on enemy fighters in air to air combat. The Su-75 Checkmate showed a potential design route the J-10 could follow.


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## MH.Yang

LKJ86 said:


> It would be a good choice for PAF to cooperate with PLAAF to develop a land-based version of J-35.


Yes, I also think PAF and PLAAF have a lot of room for cooperation. At present, however, PLA resources should be tilted towards the Navy J-35. After all, 003 will be in service soon.

And I don't think Pakistan should equip 5G fighters earlier than India. This may lead India to abandon AMCA project and buy F35 instead. Does PAF want to face AMCA or F35?

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## FuturePAF

MH.Yang said:


> All 5G?
> 
> Dude, even Americans cannot achieve the goal you mentioned for a long time.
> 
> First, let's do all 4G.


It’s not what I proposed, it was an aspiration of a PAF chief, if I remember correctly. Could someone find the article where he mentioned it?



MH.Yang said:


> Yes, I also think PAF and PLAAF have a lot of room for cooperation. At present, however, PLA resources should be tilted towards the Navy J-35. After all, 003 will be in service soon.


Naval developments, where China has to achieve technological parity with other nations, will drive modernization.

I hope the PAF units that operate out of Karachi also exercise with the PLANAF. It would be beneficial for both. Especially now that the PAF operates the J-10. Long range maritime strike practice and air to air combat between the J-10 and flanker variants (especially off carriers), far out and over water, would be the kind exercises that would benefit both.

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## serenity

帅的一匹 said:


> Maybe PLA Air Force and navy wanna induct land version of J35.
> 
> Anything is possible.



No way PLAAF also want J-35.

J-35 as we are calling this is the folding wing, navy carrier 5th generation fighter. It is not the designation for a land based airforce fighter. So let's call hypothetical such as J-3x for this purpose now.

J-3x will have less range than J-20, less payload, shorter weapon bay, probably not as deep weapons bay too. It will have a smaller nose for radar than J-20 and less auxiliary power and available power.

J-3x will be using WS-19/21 as main engine when in service. J-20 uses WS-15. That's two different engine types to create entire logistic systems for.

Purpose of a second 5th generation airforce fighter would have to be single engined. Single engine means much reduced costs of basically everything. Also 70% or so of missions do not require such long ranges and higher payloads. So single engine have the best sweetspot for usefulness.

Now consider that such a fighter would only be available for PLAAF in second half of the decade since navy orders will take priority as J-35 carrier fighter is being finalized.

Will this be useful at all at the cost if 6th generation PLAAF fighter by then is flying if not further to readiness? Same as J-20S performing unmanned cooperative engagement using UCAVs?

J-3x simply has no place at all in PLAAF. If the PLAAF also buys it and J-3x is developed then it would mean 6th generation fighter is over a decade away from even initial production.

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## Deino

Guys … why posting and discussing the J-35 in the PAF J-10 thread when there are several threads on this type already available??


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## FuturePAF

serenity said:


> No way PLAAF also want J-35.
> 
> J-35 as we are calling this is the folding wing, navy carrier 5th generation fighter. It is not the designation for a land based airforce fighter. So let's call hypothetical such as J-3x for this purpose now.
> 
> J-3x will have less range than J-20, less payload, shorter weapon bay, probably not as deep weapons bay too. It will have a smaller nose for radar than J-20 and less auxiliary power and available power.
> 
> J-3x will be using WS-19/21 as main engine when in service. J-20 uses WS-15. That's two different engine types to create entire logistic systems for.
> 
> Purpose of a second 5th generation airforce fighter would have to be single engined. Single engine means much reduced costs of basically everything. Also 70% or so of missions do not require such long ranges and higher payloads. So single engine have the best sweetspot for usefulness.
> 
> Now consider that such a fighter would only be available for PLAAF in second half of the decade since navy orders will take priority as J-35 carrier fighter is being finalized.
> 
> Will this be useful at all at the cost if 6th generation PLAAF fighter by then is flying if not further to readiness? Same as J-20S performing unmanned cooperative engagement using UCAVs?
> 
> J-3x simply has no place at all in PLAAF. If the PLAAF also buys it and J-3x is developed then it would mean 6th generation fighter is over a decade away from even initial production.


Perhaps a Chinese project similar to how the Su-75 design learned from the Su-57 design; so a single engine J-20? A development of the J-10? The proposed stealthy J-10D? It could probably be developed relatively quickly.

Considering the PAF already operates the J-10 it would probably be keen to acquire it as well. A number of other nations, especially those facing the F-35 may want to acquire it as well.

If the recent J-10 dorsal spine photos show anything, the J-10 can still be developed further if there is a demand.

I acknowledge the follow is fan art but to used to illustrate a point. Btw, the design would have to be modified to fit two side bays or a design similar to the SAAB FS-2020 with front and rear bays; 4 BVR and 2 WVR missiles would be a decent realistic load out. Powered by the WS-15 it could probably hold its own against the F-35.


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## serenity

FuturePAF said:


> Perhaps a reduced RCS J-10 may not be considered fully 5th generation, but it could go a long way into making an affordable competitive platform for the long term backbone of operators like the PAF. The alternative maybe to cut the fleet size or operate more drones. Drones which may not be able to fully match the air warfare needs to take on enemy fighters in air to air combat. The Su-75 Checkmate showed a potential design route the J-10 could follow.



That is basically designing a fighter from new.

You cannot modify an existing design this much without spending the level of engineering effort that is equal to a new project.

Even J-10A to J-10B is such a leap in design changes it is possibly the greatest modification to a design in modern fighter history outside of F-15EX and F-18A to Superhornet.



FuturePAF said:


> Perhaps a Chinese project similar to how the Su-75 design learned from the Su-57 design; so a single engine J-20? A development of the J-10? The proposed stealthy J-10D?



But one is real and has real service and production while the other is fantasy. Su-75... like I don't want to talk much about it at risk of offending any Russian readers.

Let's just say in what you're proposing here (with the assumption that Su-75 is realistic and not much more than a Qaher 313 type similar situation - attract investment and buyers before you spend the money and effort or totally for a PR attempt).

J-20 and J-10 are not related in the way Su-57 and "Su-75" are. What you're proposing is a J-20 lite a "J-02" if you will where it is a single engined J-20 "making use of J-20's already completed work". This aircraft is simply not J-10 and J-10 cannot become such an aircraft either. Just simply forget "stealthifying" J-10 or any 4th generation fighter. The best effort is like F-15 Silent Eagle and that project got scrapped, never finding a customer. It was also not completed... due to obvious reasons explained here if one can figure it out. It's simply not worth stealthifying a 4th gen fighter. By stealthifying I don't mean achieving just some aspects of low observability using electronic methods or whatever but by making it as 5th gen in appearance as possible with the obvious qualities that come with that "appearance".

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## MH.Yang

serenity said:


> No way PLAAF also want J-35.
> 
> J-35 as we are calling this is the folding wing, navy carrier 5th generation fighter. It is not the designation for a land based airforce fighter. So let's call hypothetical such as J-3x for this purpose now.
> 
> J-3x will have less range than J-20, less payload, shorter weapon bay, probably not as deep weapons bay too. It will have a smaller nose for radar than J-20 and less auxiliary power and available power.
> 
> J-3x will be using WS-19/21 as main engine when in service. J-20 uses WS-15. That's two different engine types to create entire logistic systems for.
> 
> Purpose of a second 5th generation airforce fighter would have to be single engined. Single engine means much reduced costs of basically everything. Also 70% or so of missions do not require such long ranges and higher payloads. So single engine have the best sweetspot for usefulness.
> 
> Now consider that such a fighter would only be available for PLAAF in second half of the decade since navy orders will take priority as J-35 carrier fighter is being finalized.
> 
> Will this be useful at all at the cost if 6th generation PLAAF fighter by then is flying if not further to readiness? Same as J-20S performing unmanned cooperative engagement using UCAVs?
> 
> J-3x simply has no place at all in PLAAF. If the PLAAF also buys it and J-3x is developed then it would mean 6th generation fighter is over a decade away from even initial production.


I agree that PLAAF has little demand for the air force version of the J-35.

However, military issues are often the continuation of political issues, and we should also consider the political necessity of the air force version of the J-35.

Not only Pakistan, many countries will need the air force version of the J-35 in the future. The air force J-35 is not necessarily a loss making project

As we all know, PLA is not short of funds.

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## zhxy

serenity said:


> J-3x simply has no place at all in PLAAF. If the PLAAF also buys it and J-3x is developed then it would mean 6th generation fighter is over a decade away from even initial production.



Your point would be correct if China's GDP = Russia, but the truth is that China's GDP is 10 times bigger.

Finance is not an issue, most recently China spent more than 30 billion USD to buy Airbus aircraft

PLAAF don't want to buy J-3x because they don't want or need => OK
PLAAF does not want to buy J-3x because it causes delay in China's 6th generation aircraft program => Not happening.


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## serenity

FuturePAF said:


> Perhaps a Chinese project similar to how the Su-75 design learned from the Su-57 design; so a single engine J-20? A development of the J-10? The proposed stealthy J-10D? It could probably be developed relatively quickly.
> 
> Considering the PAF already operates the J-10 it would probably be keen to acquire it as well. A number of other nations, especially those facing the F-35 may want to acquire it as well.
> 
> If the recent J-10 dorsal spine photos show anything, the J-10 can still be developed further if there is a demand.
> 
> I acknowledge the follow is fan art but to used to illustrate a point. Btw, the design would have to be modified to fit two side bays or a design similar to the SAAB FS-2020 with front and rear bays; 4 BVR and 2 WVR missiles would be a decent realistic load out.
> 
> View attachment 864573



The artworks here don't work.

Material for stealth means different skin and underlying structure. Changing underlying structure is changing everything.

We haven't even gotten to the avionics and different sensors to incorporate. The passive sensors required in places that 4th gens don't use or don't bother hiding.

At this point already the engineering effort is futile.

Then there's the total change in balance and stability needs new FCS.

What this endeavor would be is like changing the Eiffel Tower to look like the Burj Khalifa. Why not just build one as intended rather than change something that has a purpose.

We haven't even gotten to the point that such a new fighter means new factory, new equipment, new staff, new skills to train and develop and mature. New costs $$$$$$$$ 

The purpose of J-10C as it is for PLAAF is to be budget fighter that is 100% as effective at 70% of the tasks for example. Where a bombing or recon or CAP mission doesn't requrie the range and payload or stealth of J-16 or J-20 or even a J-11A.

So such a project is silly, stupid, not worthwhile, expensive, defeats the purpose of the original which has still a valid and useful purpose (cheap and fast to make while advanced and capable enough).

So much more to say but can't be bothered.

Let's just conclude these sorts of entertaining ideas as nothing more than silliness and fantasy thinking sometimes just for fun.



MH.Yang said:


> I agree that PLAAF has little demand for the air force version of the J-35.
> 
> However, military issues are often the continuation of political issues, and we should also consider the political necessity of the air force version of the J-35.
> 
> Not only Pakistan, many countries will need the air force version of the J-35 in the future.
> 
> As we all know, PLA is not short of funds.



That would be corruption and a waste of resources. A less than optimal spread and allocation.

If we do see it in PLAAF, it is either corruption to favor SAC a bit and give them a PLAAF contract too for 5th gen fighter or it is because 6th gen is further away from service that somehow also coincides with J-3x for PLAAF being useful... even if it is useful by being easier to make and cheaper than J-20. I doubt that since it is double engined. That is already enough to tell us J-35 and J-3x hypothetical are not inexpensive at all and won't be cheap to run.


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## serenity

zhxy said:


> Your point would be correct if China's GDP = Russia, but the truth is that China's GDP is 10 times bigger.
> 
> Finance is not an issue, most recently China spent more than 30 billion USD to buy Airbus aircraft
> 
> PLAAF don't want to buy J-3x because they don't want or need => OK
> PLAAF does not want to buy J-3x because it causes delay in China's 6th generation aircraft program => Not happening.



I think given finite resources, it would still no matter what be better to devote to more focused approach rather than a shotgun approach to acquisition.

It means more resources for 6th gen or more resources for J-20 and different version of it for different purposes. J-3x and J-20 just overlap too much in purpose and capability but J-20 is simply better, except in stealth due to being larger and more surfaces. But stealth to China isn't quite that important and all aspect stealth is more important than a slightly tiny bit higher RCS in some angles for J-20 compared to J-35/ J-3x.

Only advantage I can think of for J-3x would be if it is much easier and faster to make than J-20 due to newer manufacturing technologies involved (which have been actually revealed in some detail in Chinese sphere) that makes it worth also buying for PLAAF as a "lo" to hi of J-20. Anything new in capability that can go on J-3x can easily be made for J-20 too as J-20 has much more space and much more available power. It's cheaper to develop a MLU J-20 for anything crazy capable that is going in J-3x by rethinking J-20 and modifying that than new platform.

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## FuturePAF

serenity said:


> The artworks here don't work.
> 
> Material for stealth means different skin and underlying structure. Changing underlying structure is changing everything.
> 
> We haven't even gotten to the avionics and different sensors to incorporate. The passive sensors required in places that 4th gens don't use or don't bother hiding.
> 
> At this point already the engineering effort is futile.
> 
> Then there's the total change in balance and stability needs new FCS.
> 
> What this endeavor would be is like changing the Eiffel Tower to look like the Burj Khalifa. Why not just build one as intended rather than change something that has a purpose.
> 
> We haven't even gotten to the point that such a new fighter means new factory, new equipment, new staff, new skills to train and develop and mature. New costs $$$$$$$$
> 
> The purpose of J-10C as it is for PLAAF is to be budget fighter that is 100% as effective at 70% of the tasks for example. Where a bombing or recon or CAP mission doesn't requrie the range and payload or stealth of J-16 or J-20 or even a J-11A.
> 
> So such a project is silly, stupid, not worthwhile, expensive, defeats the purpose of the original which has still a valid and useful purpose (cheap and fast to make while advanced and capable enough).
> 
> So much more to say but can't be bothered.
> 
> Let's just conclude these sorts of entertaining ideas as nothing more than silliness and fantasy thinking sometimes just for fun.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be corruption and a waste of resources. A less than optimal spread and allocation.
> 
> If we do see it in PLAAF, it is either corruption to favor SAC a bit and give them a PLAAF contract too for 5th gen fighter or it is because 6th gen is further away from service that somehow also coincides with J-3x for PLAAF being useful... even if it is useful by being easier to make and cheaper than J-20. I doubt that since it is double engined. That is already enough to tell us J-35 and J-3x hypothetical are not inexpensive at all and won't be cheap to run.


Then what kind of design did you have in mind? Something akin to the SAAB FS2020?

It’s a design built around a 170 kn engine. The Swedes have done a lot of design work for it. Tested scale models, and probably applied the knowledge to their share of the tempest project being worked on with the British. So it maybe a decent design for WS-10B3 (exportable down the line) to be used with, while the WS-15 (probably export restricted) is freed up for the J-20.









Swedish Stealth fighter concept FS 2020


Swedish Stealth fighter concept FS 2020



defence.pk





Probably would make an ideal design, because an unmanned version could be built , for manned/unmanned teaming.

A similar unmanned design is what the Turks seem to be going with.






Turkey begins assembly of MIUS ‘loyal wingman' prototype


Turkey has begun assembly of the Bayraktar MIUS (Bayraktar Combat Unmanned Aircraft System) ‘loyal wingman' prototype, images released by manufacturer Baykar Makina...



www.janes.com





But back to the topic of the thread. Do you think the J-10 has reached the end of what can even reasonably expected of the design, as far as the PLAAF sees it?


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## lovenig

FuturePAF said:


> Then what kind of design did you have in mind? Something akin to the SAAB FS2020?
> 
> It’s a design built around a 170 kn engine. The Swedes have done a lot of design work for it. Tested scale models, and probably applied the knowledge to their share of the tempest project being worked on with the British. So it maybe a decent design for WS-10B3 (exportable down the line) to be used with, while the WS-15 (probably export restricted) is freed up for the J-20.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swedish Stealth fighter concept FS 2020
> 
> 
> Swedish Stealth fighter concept FS 2020
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably would make an ideal design, because an unmanned version could be built , for manned/unmanned teaming.
> 
> A similar unmanned design is what the Turks seem to be going with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turkey begins assembly of MIUS ‘loyal wingman' prototype
> 
> 
> Turkey has begun assembly of the Bayraktar MIUS (Bayraktar Combat Unmanned Aircraft System) ‘loyal wingman' prototype, images released by manufacturer Baykar Makina...
> 
> 
> 
> www.janes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But back to the topic of the thread. Do you think the J-10 has reached the end of what can even reasonably expected of the design, as far as the PLAAF sees it?


All of his opinions are basically based on imagination. Don't expect him to have any authoritative sources, there has never been any information that proves the PLAAF doesn't need the J-3X or J21.

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## Raider 21

serenity said:


> No way PLAAF also want J-35.
> 
> J-35 as we are calling this is the folding wing, navy carrier 5th generation fighter. It is not the designation for a land based airforce fighter. So let's call hypothetical such as J-3x for this purpose now.
> 
> J-3x will have less range than J-20, less payload, shorter weapon bay, probably not as deep weapons bay too. It will have a smaller nose for radar than J-20 and less auxiliary power and available power.
> 
> J-3x will be using WS-19/21 as main engine when in service. J-20 uses WS-15. That's two different engine types to create entire logistic systems for.
> 
> Purpose of a second 5th generation airforce fighter would have to be single engined. Single engine means much reduced costs of basically everything. Also 70% or so of missions do not require such long ranges and higher payloads. So single engine have the best sweetspot for usefulness.
> 
> Now consider that such a fighter would only be available for PLAAF in second half of the decade since navy orders will take priority as J-35 carrier fighter is being finalized.
> 
> Will this be useful at all at the cost if 6th generation PLAAF fighter by then is flying if not further to readiness? Same as J-20S performing unmanned cooperative engagement using UCAVs?
> 
> J-3x simply has no place at all in PLAAF. If the PLAAF also buys it and J-3x is developed then it would mean 6th generation fighter is over a decade away from even initial production.


They termed it J-35. That's jokes


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## serenity

FuturePAF said:


> But back to the topic of the thread. Do you think the J-10 has reached the end of what can even reasonably expected of the design, as far as the PLAAF sees it?



No it hasn't reached "the end" of what can be expected of the design. The design is great. 4th gen fighters are already at or near the peak of kinematic performance. The rest is about changing out and upgrading the electronics and software. This can be done through many decades. J-10C is a modern platform and the newest ones made this week would have MLU in decades time. They remain effective and useful.

The design itself won't be changed dramatically. Maybe adding that dorsal fin spine thing for service fighters. Definitely not stealthifying it though, that's one change that is simply ridiculous and I don't know why people entertain that idea. I guess fan art doesn't help.



lovenig said:


> All of his opinions are basically based on imagination. Don't expect him to have any authoritative sources, there has never been any information that proves the PLAAF doesn't need the J-3X or J21.



I don't have any authoritative insider sources but we are all in the same position except I think on knowledge, we are roughly equal. This has to do with speculation. I simply do not understand how PLAAF could want a J-3x or J-21 based on FC-31. The purpose of any lo fighter in lo hi mix is to have it single engined otherwise it is no less expensive to run and service than the hi fighter.

FC-31 based fighters are twin engined. In this case not even an engine that is the same as the mainstream platforms where logistics is simplified. See F-14, F-15, F-16 engines. Pretty much all the same from same or very similar family of F-100 based engines. Before F-14 got re-engined of course.

PLAAF already has a 5th generation fighter. PLAN does not. J-35 is better for carrier apparently because they can fit more onto a carrier than J-20. Okay fine that makes enough sense to justify a totally different platform. It also makes sense to give SAC something to continue working with in the fighter department. It allows Chinese fighter aviation to have at least two major separate groups that admittedly cooperate a lot and all under AVIC anyway but that's not relevant to this point.



Raider 21 said:


> They termed it J-35. That's jokes



The naming convention is J-1x from before 2010 induction into service (and typically of a group of generations ie below gen 5. J-2x from before 2020 induction (J-20 induction in 2017 and news noticed it and could report on it in 2018). J-3x for fighters inducted before 2030. J-x5 for naval fighters. J-15... inducted in 2010s and a naval fighter hence first designation is 1 and second is 5.

J-35 because inducted past 2020 and before 2030 so first designation is 3 and second is 5 since it is a naval fighter.

It is not so much an attempt to troll the Americans like Su-57 where 57 = 22 + 35 to suggest it is better than F-22 and F-35 or something like that. The naming convention with Su-57 simply did not make sense anymore. Su-75 is ... really I don't even want to speculate. Su-35 naming still had some pattern to it. Mig-35 as well. Due too previous baseline generations in the 20s.

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## Deino

Guys … please back to the topic

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## FuturePAF

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> View attachment 864817


J-10s are looking sweet.

Hope we get build an engine overhaul (and some parts manufacturing) facility build for the RD-93/WS-13/19/21 and WS-10.

Those two engines are gonna be with the PAF for at least the next 30 years. Hopefully when the PLAAF transitions to the WS-15, Pakistan will be allowed to license build them for the J-10 (and other projects).

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## Windjammer



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## White privilege

This thread right now ....

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## Umair Nawaz

Detail of J10CE of PAF by Sqn Ldr (R) Fahad Masood, who himself used to be a Mirage pilot of PAF, His own home Sqd Cobras r the first ones to get J10CEs. So listen to him, he knows what he is talking abt.

-Conformed! that J10 series ARE ISRAELI LAVIs, this happened in 1988.

-Conformed! PL10e's HOBS capability with 90 deg. targeting angles same as Aim 9X

-a little correction, PAF j10s r known to carry ws10b not AL31. This interview i suppose was recorded BEFORE J10s hit the runways of Pak. As we all believed back then AL31 engines will be their powerplants.

-Conformed! PL15E is a dual pulse motor missile with speed to upto mach 4 not 3.

-Conformed! that with Delta-Canard design its turn rate capability is immensely improved(Thats why i specifically mentioned him being an experienced mirage pilot as he knows very well the Delta design's shortcomings)

-Conformed! The order of J10CE is of 36 for PAF not 25 as Indian media claimed and from there picked up by the west. 3 Sqns, 15 each in 2 sqns and a 3rd of 6 for CCS.

-Conformed! very low strings attached, And PAC Kamra will be responsible for its maintenance, overhaul and maybe future updates.

-Conformed! PAF through Shaheen Series exe. have flown J10s in Pakistan and China as well previously, (Hence i presume wasnt difficult to train our pilots, 24 pilots were certified trained on this type as of march when first 6 arrived and for tactics development as PAF is well aware of it through Shaheen series exe. This info was shared on the forum by a senior member)

Some more interesting and juicy info abt J10C, ie their Golden Canopies J20 style.

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## serenity

Umair Nawaz said:


> Detail of J10CE of PAF by Sqn Ldr (R) Fahad Masood, who himself used to be a Mirage pilot of PAF, His own home Sqd Cobras r the first ones to get J10CEs. So listen to him, he knows what he is talking abt.
> 
> -Conformed! that J10 series ARE ISRAELI LAVIs, this happened in 1988.
> 
> -Conformed! PL10e's HOBS capability with 90 deg. targeting angels same as Aim 9X
> 
> -a little correction, PAF j10s r known to carry ws10b not AL31. This interview i suppose was recorded BEFORE J10s hit the runways of Pak. As we all believed back then AL31 engines will be their powerplants.
> 
> -Conformed! PL15E is a dual pulse motor missile with speed to upto mach 4 not 3.
> 
> -Conformed! that with Delta-Canard design its turn rate capability is immensely improved(Thats why i specifically mentioned his being an experienced mirage pilot as he knows very well the Delta design's shortcomings)
> 
> -Conformed! The order of J10CE is of 36 for PAF not 25 as Indian media claimed and from there picked up by the west. 3 Sqns, 15 each in 2 sqns and a 3rd of 6 for CCS.
> 
> -Conformed! very low strings attached, And PAC Kamra will be responsible for its maintenance, overhaul and maybe future updates.
> 
> -Conformed! PAF through Shaheen Series exe. have flown J10s in Pakistan and China as well previously, (Hence i presume forth wasnt difficult to train our pilots, 24 pilots were certified trained on this type as of march when first 6 arrived and for tactics development as PAF is well aware of it through Shaheen series exe. This info was shared on the forum by a senior member)
> 
> Some more interesting and juicy info abt J10CE of PAF, ie their Golden Canopies J20 style. This makes them even more advanced then PLAAF's own J10 series. Making in the only 4th gen a/c known to carry Golden Canopies.



This information isn't accurate. The gold tinted canopies on J-10C were pretty much there since J-10C first entered PLAAF service.

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## Umair Nawaz

serenity said:


> This information isn't accurate. The gold tinted canopies on J-10C were pretty much there since J-10C first entered PLAAF service.


really? didnt know that. let me edit.


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## dbc

Umair Nawaz said:


> really? didnt know that. let me edit.



second video is BS the prowler EA-6B had a golden canopy as did some F-16's. The J10 isn't the first 4th Gen with a golden canopy

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## Umair Nawaz

dbc said:


> second video is BS the prowler EA-6B had a golden canopy as did some F-16's. The J10 isn't the first 4th Gen with a golden canopy


thats why i mentioned only ''*known''* 4th gen jet.

It doesnt say that it was the first 4th gen fighter to have them in video.....Let me edit it again.


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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## monitor

The #Pakistan Air Force is set to receive the next batch of 8-10 J-10CP 4.5+ generation omnirole fighters from #China in the coming two weeks. Pakistan has already received 6 aircraft from the initial order of 36 jets.

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## SQ8

dbc said:


> second video is BS the prowler EA-6B had a golden canopy as did some F-16's. The J10 isn't the first 4th Gen with a golden canopy



Apparently the golden canopy is some accomplishment to Pakistanis.

The EA-6B wasn’t the first aircraft to have them either - any aircraft deemed to be vulnerable to EM radiation(everything from Microwaves to gamma) exposure was the target of these canopies.

The EA-6B needed them due to the extreme radiation coming off its EW pods -

Interestingly, a few PAF F-16s were reportedly seen with gold canopies in the late 80s- early 90s but they are difficult to maintain.

The tinting serves 3 purposes

shading from the sun
radiation protection
and it also turns black to protect the pilots eyes in the case of a nuclear blast.
The tinting has a problem with being very fragile, so much so you can only use water to wipe the inside of the canopy with

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## Deino

SQ8 said:


> Apparently the golden canopy is some accomplishment to Pakistanis.
> 
> …




Why is this an accomplished „to Pakistan“? J-10s have this tinted canopy since years…



Umair Nawaz said:


> Detail of J10CE of PAF by Sqn Ldr (R) Fahad Masood, who himself used to be a Mirage pilot of PAF, His own home Sqd Cobras r the first ones to get J10CEs. So listen to him, he knows what he is talking abt.
> 
> -Conformed! that J10 series ARE ISRAELI LAVIs, this happened in 1988.
> 
> -Conformed! PL10e's HOBS capability with 90 deg. targeting angles same as Aim 9X
> 
> -a little correction, PAF j10s r known to carry ws10b not AL31. This interview i suppose was recorded BEFORE J10s hit the runways of Pak. As we all believed back then AL31 engines will be their powerplants.
> 
> -Conformed! PL15E is a dual pulse motor missile with speed to upto mach 4 not 3.
> 
> -Conformed! that with Delta-Canard design its turn rate capability is immensely improved(Thats why i specifically mentioned him being an experienced mirage pilot as he knows very well the Delta design's shortcomings)
> 
> -Conformed! The order of J10CE is of 36 for PAF not 25 as Indian media claimed and from there picked up by the west. 3 Sqns, 15 each in 2 sqns and a 3rd of 6 for CCS.
> 
> -Conformed! very low strings attached, And PAC Kamra will be responsible for its maintenance, overhaul and maybe future updates.
> 
> -Conformed! PAF through Shaheen Series exe. have flown J10s in Pakistan and China as well previously, (Hence i presume wasnt difficult to train our pilots, 24 pilots were certified trained on this type as of march when first 6 arrived and for tactics development as PAF is well aware of it through Shaheen series exe. This info was shared on the forum by a senior member)
> 
> Some more interesting and juicy info abt J10C, ie their Golden Canopies J20 style.




What a piece of crappy BS  

Confirmed a copy of the Lavi! … after this comment, all credibility was lost.

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## Bossman

Deino said:


> Why is this an accomplished „to Pakistan“? J-10s have this tinted canopy since years…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a piece of crappy BS
> 
> Confirmed a copy of the Lavi! … after this comment, all credibility was lost.


It was derived from the Lavi. It’s not a secret

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## Windjammer

Another J-10C surprise. 
Design feature of It's CFT revealed.

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## Deino

Bossman said:


> It was derived from the Lavi. It’s not a secret




No, it was not ... honestly, they share a similar configuration, CAc indeed had contacts and assistance (allegedly mostly on system integration and some say FBW-technology too, but both are structurally, size, powerplant and even in certain details so much different, that a B737 or the C919 shares more commonality to an A320, than these two. As such to call it a clone, a copy or even being "derived from the Lavi" is plain naive, IMO almost stupid.
Again, that does not want to deny contacts and influence, but it is surely not a derivate. If those two are derivates, than an apple is a derivate of an orange too!

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF is set to receive the next batch of 8 to 10 units of J-10C 4.5+ Gen fighters from China in the next couple of weeks.

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## Bossman

Deino said:


> No, it was not ... honestly, they share a similar configuration, CAc indeed had contacts and assistance (allegedly mostly on system integration and some say FBW-technology too, but both are structurally, size, powerplant and even in certain details so much different, that a B737 or the C919 shares more commonality to an A320, than these two. As such to call it a clone, a copy or even being "derived from the Lavi" is plain naive, IMO almost stupid.
> Again, that does not want to deny contacts and influence, but it is surely not a derivate. If those two are derivates, than an apple is a derivate of an orange too!
> 
> 
> View attachment 867796
> View attachment 867797


You are wrong. Go read the history of the plane. Lavi blue print were delivered to PRC. I said derived. Similar to A5 was derived from F6.


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## Deino

Bossman said:


> You are wrong. Go read the history of the plane. Lavi blue print were delivered to PRC. I said derived. Similar to A5 was derived from F6.




Is there proof that these plans were delivered and even if, why then does the J-10 look so much vastly more different to the Lavi than the Q-5 evolved from the J-6?
In fact I don not deny input, influence and contacts, but there is not a single part the same or alike in the way they were similar in Q-5 and J-6, they only share a similar configuration in the same way a B777 is similar to an A320, but you surely won‘t claim, a B777 is derived from an A320?

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## SQ8

Deino said:


> Why is this an accomplished „to Pakistan“? J-10s have this tinted canopy since years…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a piece of crappy BS
> 
> Confirmed a copy of the Lavi! … after this comment, all credibility was lost.


Some Pakistanis are under the impression it is some sort of game changing feature

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## SQ8

Deino said:


> Is there proof that these plans were delivered and even if, why then does the J-10 look so much vastly more different to the Lavi than the Q-5 evolved from the J-6?
> In fact I don not deny input, influence and contacts, but there is not a single part the same or alike in the way they were similar in Q-5 and J-6, they only share a similar configuration in the same way a B777 is similar to an A320, but you surely won‘t claim, a B777 is derived from an A320?


There is more than that - one could say how the Lavi itself had influences from the F-16.
But it isnt a Nesher to a Mirage V since the Chinese were thinking of a Canard configuration in the J-9. It is likely that refinements and design influences came from the IAI contacts in the 80s that resulted in the J-10.

Some Chinese refuse to believe that a PAF F-16 fuselage (allegedly the one struck by a boar) was carted off to China to be looked at for structural ideas. 

But the J-10 is a “new “ aircraft in its overall design and not just a modification on the Lavi.

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## Deino

Windjammer said:


> Another J-10C surprise.
> Design feature of It's CFT revealed.
> 
> View attachment 867791
> View attachment 867792




I think I know the source of this surprising news!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555097816518873088

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## Windjammer



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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> Why is this an accomplished „to Pakistan“? J-10s have this tinted canopy since years…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a piece of crappy BS
> 
> Confirmed a copy of the Lavi! … after this comment, all credibility was lost.



Hi,

Big deal---" all credibility lost "---you really think that counts!

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## Ali_Baba

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 867924



Does anyone have the magazine? Are there any new pictures or information inside?


----------



## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Big deal---" all credibility lost "---you really think that counts!




Surely not on your count, but who gives a shit on your opinion anyway?
After you admitted, that you deliberately lie and post faked and false claims to „fool foreigners and enemies“ you too have no credibility at all here anymore, at least not by the honorable members. The ignorant fools and fan boys sure will follow you anywhere even if you „agree on all accounts“, that the Block 3 JF-17 uses an Italian engine and could fire AMRAAMs as you did some time ago.  

So what?

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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> Surely not on your count, *but who gives a shit on your opinion anyway*?
> After you admitted, that you deliberately lie and post faked and false claims to „fool foreigners and enemies“ you too have no credibility at all here anymore, at least not by the honorable members. The ignorant fools and fan boys sure will follow you anywhere even if you „agree on all accounts“, that the Block 3 JF-17 uses an Italian engine and could fire AMRAAMs as you did some time ago.
> 
> So what?



Hi,

A lots of people do.

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## GreatHanWarrior

@aziqbal If you keep lying every minute. It is difficult for me to sell J-10C and WS-10 to Turkey.








https://min.news/en/military/d6204bc905464eca4e21526504dacb94.html











Turkey, Pakistan pursue world’s first ‘Islamic world’ fighter


Turkey and Pakistan are teaming up to develop a 5th generation stealth fighter in a bid to replace their aging US-made F-16 fleets. In a Pakistani TV interview this month, Turkish Aerospace Indust…




asiatimes.com

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## air marshal



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## ghazi52

In China... Testing.

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## syedmunib

ghazi52 said:


> In China... Testing.
> 
> 
> View attachment 869019


Not in China but already delivered Sequence No 106.


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## Princeps Senatus

ghazi52 said:


> In China... Testing.
> 
> 
> View attachment 869019


106 was already delivered in the first batch

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## ghazi52

Haha , Aerial refueling probe was fitted prior to delivery to Pakistan and they are still there.


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## Deino

ghazi52 said:


> Haha , Aerial refueling probe was fitted prior to delivery to Pakistan and they are still there.




Yes and therefore it is indeed an old already more than often posted image and I don‘t know why you and a few others are constantly and repeatedly posted images that were all posted more than once?!

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## Talon



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## Ali_Baba

Talon said:


> View attachment 869478



It would be a very dissappoint usecase for this plane.. PAF has Mirages, JF17s, F7s it can use as mud-movers !!!


----------



## Abramar

Ali_Baba said:


> It would be a very dissappoint usecase for this plane.. PAF has Mirages, JF17s, F7s it can use as mud-movers !!!


PAF doctrine has moved away from any kind of unguided rockets. Stand Off weapons is the name of the game now.

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## Windjammer

Deino said:


> Yes and therefore it is indeed an old already more than often posted image and I don‘t know why you and a few others are constantly and repeatedly posted images that were all posted more than once?!


Me and several other members have pointed this out but this guy considers himself above all else.... He thinks getting a few likes is like winning some medals.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Deino

SQ8 said:


> …
> 
> Some Chinese refuse to believe that a PAF F-16 fuselage (allegedly the one struck by a boar) was carted off to China to be looked at for structural ideas.
> 
> …



Is there more about this story available?


----------



## MastanKhan

SQ8 said:


> There is more than that - one could say how the Lavi itself had influences from the F-16.
> But it isnt a Nesher to a Mirage V since the Chinese were thinking of a Canard configuration in the J-9. It is likely that refinements and design influences came from the IAI contacts in the 80s that resulted in the J-10.
> 
> Some Chinese refuse to believe that a PAF F-16 fuselage (allegedly the one struck by a boar) was carted off to China to be looked at for structural ideas.
> 
> But the J-10 is a “new “ aircraft in its overall design and not just a modification on the Lavi.


Hi,

How about the pieces of the stealth helicopter at Abbotabad.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ghazi52

Refreshing at a Base.

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## Deino

Hey guys, as it seems, I can promise you a major surprise with the next batch of J-10CEs for Pakistan  … and all I can say so far is this hint

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## White privilege

Deino said:


> Hey guys, as it seems, I can promise you a major surprise with the next batch of J-10CEs for Pakistan  … and all I can say so far is this hint
> 
> View attachment 873124


Ground/Surface attack capability (munitions) to be revealed??


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## Deino

syed_yusuf said:


> it is an upgraded mig21 or Chinese f-7mg
> 
> look at the wings and the tail
> 
> i hope you all remember this comment




Was this just a stupid comment, which failed to be funny or a lame attempt to troll? 



White privilege said:


> Ground/Surface attack capability (munitions) to be revealed??



Not really

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## Dil Pakistan

Deino said:


> Hey guys, as it seems, I can promise you a major surprise with the next batch of J-10CEs for Pakistan  … and all I can say so far is this hint
> 
> View attachment 873124



J-10Cs will be converted to Mirages ?

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## Jaansher




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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Deino said:


> Hey guys, as it seems, I can promise you a major surprise with the next batch of J-10CEs for Pakistan  … and all I can say so far is this hint
> 
> View attachment 873124


Next J-10CE squadron is No. 08 Haiders?

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## Deino

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Next J-10CE squadron is No. 08 Haiders?



Please, be a bit more patient… I’m already impatient enough on my own since I’m not yet allowed to share this information.

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## Princeps Senatus

Deino said:


> Hey guys, as it seems, I can promise you a major surprise with the next batch of J-10CEs for Pakistan  … and all I can say so far is this hint
> 
> View attachment 873124


Does anyone know what missile or rocket this Mirage is carrying?


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## arslank03

Deino said:


> Please, be a bit more patient… I’m already impatient enough on my own since I’m not yet allowed to share this information.




atleast tell us, is the tail art cool


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## DANGER-ZONE

Princeps Senatus said:


> Does anyone know what missile or rocket this Mirage is carrying?



It's an ACMI pod, made most probably by the GIDS.

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## Great Janjua

Deino said:


> Hey guys, as it seems, I can promise you a major surprise with the next batch of J-10CEs for Pakistan  … and all I can say so far is this hint
> 
> View attachment 873124


They will be able to carry RAAD nuclear capability?

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## Windjammer

Deino said:


> Hey guys, as it seems, I can promise you a major surprise with the next batch of J-10CEs for Pakistan  … and all I can say so far is this hint
> 
> View attachment 873124


PAF No 8 Squadron equipped with Mirage VPA-3s armed with AM-39 Exocet missiles thus it's primary role consists of maritime strike......I guess that will be the role adopted by future J-10Cs.

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## Gripen9

Windjammer said:


> PAF No 8 Squadron equipped with Mirage VPA-3s armed with AM-39 Exocet missiles thus it's primary role consists of maritime strike......I guess that will be the role adopted by future J-10Cs.


Exocets have been withdrawn from PAF inventory and given back to PN for SeaKing ops.

No 8 Sqn is now one of the last non ROSE mirage sqn using REKs & AIM9Ls

PAF's primary maritime strike sqn is No 2 flying JF-17 armed with C802s.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Deino

arslank03 said:


> atleast tell us, is the tail art cool




Unfortunately no tailart but serial looks like 22-112

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## White privilege

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Next J-10CE squadron is No. 08 Haiders?


Wouldn't make sense right now, _Cobras _are yet to reach squadron strength...!!!


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## JohnWick

White privilege said:


> Wouldn't make sense right now, _Cobras _are yet to reach squadron strength...!!!


Who knows how many planes are gonna delivered in the next batch ?
Hint: Must be 40 at least


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## White privilege

JohnWick said:


> Who knows how many planes are gonna delivered in the next batch ?
> Hint: Must be 40 at least


Must be the _secret Chinese ones _already hiding at Skardu...😁😄


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## arslank03

Deino said:


> Unfortunately no tailart but serial looks like 22-112


wonder what the secret is


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## syed_yusuf

JohnWick said:


> Who knows how many planes are gonna delivered in the next batch ?
> Hint: Must be 40 at least


8-12

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## Deino

JohnWick said:


> Who knows how many planes are gonna delivered in the next batch ?
> Hint: Must be 40 at least




Why 40 at least? So far there is at least by my understanding nothing that hints a delivery of up to 40. We know 6 were delivered as a first batch and most rumours hint a similar number soon …

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## Trango Towers

HRK said:


> brothers the post which you quoted was a sarcastic post taunting Indians for their illogical line of debate ....


I have deleted my post. Sorry ...hig hug



syed_yusuf said:


> It was meant to be a sarcastic post to make fun of bhindi watchers I guess u don't get it


Apologies and deleted

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## JohnWick

Deino said:


> Why 40 at least? So far there is at least by my understanding nothing that hints a delivery of up to 40. We know 6 were delivered as a first batch and most rumours hint a similar number soon …


Pakistan can make upto 30 jets in a year with its limited resources at Kamra
Does a country like china can not make 40 jets in 6 months.Do the math ....
Yesterday I have seen a pic of 5 destroyers I repeat again 5 destroyers was being built at a shipyard....You know what that means ?
It has more fire power than the entire indian navy fleet if you add some frigates and subs in it....
I am astonished since then....If you find comfortable, then export these 5 destroyers to us

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## kursed

Deino said:


> Hey guys, as it seems, I can promise you a major surprise with the next batch of J-10CEs for Pakistan  … and all I can say so far is this hint
> 
> View attachment 873124


A2S weaponry / maritime role?

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## bindasbanda

dilpakistani said:


> oo yaar issko tu koi goli maar dai sawab ka kaam samjh kai.. yea har cheez ko cheap aur wahiyat bana daita hai.. victory in t20 ko islam ki victory 😣 j10c rafale kai mukabalay mai utar rahay hain ... khoti ka khur hai yea


Sahi kaha koi kisi koi kamjor nai samajna chaiye mail me jugnueye@beeble.com

Hum jyada baat karege


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## AsifIjaz

Deino said:


> Hey guys, as it seems, I can promise you a major surprise with the next batch of J-10CEs for Pakistan  … and all I can say so far is this hint
> 
> View attachment 873124


The new batch to consist of J10s with a dorsal spine streamlined with the canopy ???? Mirage in the pic u posted has the same configuration and pictures have recently come up of a J10 variant (j10D??) which has the same dorsal spine. 
If so then it wud be interesting to see if it houses new avionics, fuel, or will be used for enhanced electronic warfare capability.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Deino

AsifIjaz said:


> The new batch to consist of J10s with a dorsal spine streamlined with the canopy ???? Mirage in the pic u posted has the same configuration and pictures have recently come up of a J10 variant (j10D??) which has the same dorsal spine.
> If so then it wud be interesting to see if it houses new avionics, fuel, or will be used for enhanced electronic warfare capability.

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## araz

Deino said:


>


Is it CFTs?.
A


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## TheDarkKnight

araz said:


> Is it CFTs?.
> A


If you see some previous posts, I think this is about J10 taking over maritime duties from Mirages. So we get J10 and Jf17 in maritime roles.

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## Bossman

TheDarkKnight said:


> If you see some previous posts, I think this is about J10 taking over maritime duties from Mirages. So we get J10 and Jf17 in maritime roles.


Mirages moved out of the maritime role long time ago.

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## arslank03

Deino said:


> Hey guys, as it seems, I can promise you a major surprise with the next batch of J-10CEs for Pakistan  … and all I can say so far is this hint
> 
> View attachment 873124


'


Raad integration?


----------



## Ghessan

Stop guessing guys, he said he can't share anything yet۔
ویسے بھی کھودا پہاڑ نکلا چوہا والی بات نہ ہو جاۓ

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## m52k85

Since when is Deino privy to info? He's been open source all his life. Has PAF fallen out with Alan W?


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## Deino

m52k85 said:


> Since when is Deino privy to info? He's been open source all his life. Has PAF fallen out with Alan W?




I got a promotion! 

Don’t get me wrong, I received this piece of information from a - for me most reliable source under the strict request NOT to publish that imagery … and I respect his/her will. Otherwise it is probably not as spectacular, no CFT or spine, no special weaponry, but it is special in a special way and I’m sure it won’t take long until we all will see it.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Deino said:


> I got a promotion!
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, I received this piece of information from a - for me most reliable source under the strict request NOT to publish that imagery … and I respect his/her will. Otherwise it is probably not as spectacular, no CFT or spine, no special weaponry, but it is special in a special way and I’m sure it won’t take long until we all will see it.


Is it green and white?

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## Talon

Deino said:


> Hey guys, as it seems, I can promise you a major surprise with the next batch of J-10CEs for Pakistan  … and all I can say so far is this hint
> 
> View attachment 873124


Is the picture even related? Or is it just to confuse us? 😂


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## Deino

Talon said:


> Is the picture even related? Or is it just to confuse us? 😂


… oh, it is ! Promised

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## siegecrossbow

m52k85 said:


> Since when is Deino privy to info? He's been open source all his life. Has PAF fallen out with Alan W?



Deino showed me images of J-20 in Anshan before Western media was even aware of it.

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## Avicenna

Deino said:


> … oh, it is ! Promised



J-10CE would look great in that camo!

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## Talon

Avicenna said:


> J-10CE would look great in that camo!


Good guess .. you could be right..

I had a photo of a J-10 in PAF mirages scheme from early 2010s (Photoshopped) , but can't find it in my archives. @Windjammer please share if you have it saved somewhere

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## North Star

Pardon my ignorance but when is the next batch of J-10s expected to be handed over to PAF?


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## Deino

North Star said:


> Pardon my ignorance but when is the next batch of J-10s expected to be handed over to PAF?




Soon ... in less than a month!

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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563221711914356736

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## Deino

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563221711914356736

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## White privilege

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563221711914356736

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## Ghessan

cat out of the bag... good.

they say intel sometimes never let you settle ...
پیٹ میں بات رکھنا مشکل ہو جاتا ہے۔

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## DANGER-ZONE

This is what *Ghufran* aka @timberwolf creator of the military-photoshops.blogspot.com made on my request back in 2012 (Here). This camouflage is called *Nato Standard Grey / Green Camouflage* and you'd notice it on most of the cold war era European aircrafts. I always wanted to see our J-10 & JF-17 dedicated attack sqn. in this camouflage.

Take a look at JFT in same color scheme.

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## TopGun786

Dil Pakistan said:


> J-10Cs will be converted to Mirages ?


A hint: Color scheme.

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## White privilege

TopGun786 said:


> A hint: Color scheme.


That new color scheme means new role of low level deep penetration/SOW delivery. Even though J-10 is perfectly capable of doing so, learned members have indicated the PAF's focus with J-10 is exclusively glued to air superiority right now, so I am a bit confused.

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## TopGun786

Deino said:


> I got a promotion!
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, I received this piece of information from a - for me most reliable source under the strict request NOT to publish that imagery … and I respect his/her will. Otherwise it is probably not as spectacular, no CFT or spine, no special weaponry, but it is special in a special way and I’m sure it won’t take long until we all will see it.


Just color scheme like Mirages, I believe.


----------



## Deino

TopGun786 said:


> Just color scheme like Mirages, I believe.



Not exactly like … could be an effect of light but it looks a bit brighter.

Most interesting, serial number - even if heavily blurred - looks like 22-112 and as it seems, there is eventually a unit patch on the tail

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## Princeps Senatus

White privilege said:


> That new color scheme means new role of low level deep penetration/SOW delivery. Even though J-10 is perfectly capable of doing so, learned members have indicated the PAF's focus with J-10 is exclusively glued to air superiority right now, so I am a bit confused.


It's purely cosmetic, mostly likely on the request of the CAS (who was a mirage driver back in the day)


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## Deino

Princeps Senatus said:


> It's purely cosmetic, mostly likely on the request of the CAS (who was a mirage driver back in the day)




I have a similar feeling, just as if it is just a single airframe colored

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## White privilege

Princeps Senatus said:


> It's purely cosmetic, mostly likely on the request of the CAS (who was a mirage driver back in the day)


That would be more lame than the legendary _helmet walk. _Better to use lemons and coconuts like the Indians.😁😆

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## Windjammer

Seems like airframe 22-112 has been applied with the Mirage type camouflage with ''Cobra'' unit patch on the tail. 
Another image from the first batch.

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## Abid123

Windjammer said:


> Seems like airframe 22-112 has been applied with the Mirage type camouflage with ''Cobra'' unit patch on the tail.
> Another image from the first batch.
> 
> 
> View attachment 874104


Such a beautiful jet.


----------



## siegecrossbow

Lol at the people doubting @Deino. Multiple guys in Chengdu reported seeing J-10C in camp similar to Mirage’s.

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## Talon

@Deino maybe share the photo now? As the news is everywhere 😆

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## Deino

Talon said:


> @Deino maybe share the photo now? As the news is everywhere 😆




I promised my source not to publish or share that image ... and even if some might think I'm just a braggart or busybody, I stick to my promise!

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## Ali_Baba

ghazi52 said:


> Lol at the people doubting @Deino. Multiple guys in Chengdu reported seeing J-10C in camp similar to Mirage’s.



Only a matter of time before some other photographer posts them on the internet !!! So - no need for Deino to break his vows

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## Windjammer

Possibly last aircraft of the second batch was given the special paint scheme.

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## Zephyrus

Hi guys.

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## siegecrossbow

Zephyrus said:


> Hi guys.



I’ve seen the photo of the actual fighter and the color contrast is bolder than this.

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## Princeps Senatus

siegecrossbow said:


> I’ve seen the photo of the actual fighter and the color contrast is bolder than this.


Does it look even remotely good? please be honest


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## Hassan Imtiaz

siegecrossbow said:


> I’ve seen the photo of the actual fighter and the color contrast is bolder than this.


Thats not fair 😕. Share nai kr skty th khty kyn ho 😁😁


----------



## siegecrossbow

Princeps Senatus said:


> Does it look even remotely good? please be honest



It is somewhat Middle Eastern looking. If you like this chances are you’ll like the J-10C camo.

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## Deino

Here you go ...

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## Raja Porus

Deino said:


> Here you go ...
> 
> View attachment 874340
> 
> 
> View attachment 874338


Frog?


----------



## Deino

Ok guys ... as promised, I received the "go - let's publish" and here it is!  










And here an even closer one ...

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## Raja Porus

Deino said:


> Ok guys ... as promised, I received the "go - let's publish" and here it is!
> 
> View attachment 874413
> 
> View attachment 874414
> 
> 
> And here an even closer one ...
> 
> View attachment 874415


Miragiya chief doing miragiya things.

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## Syntage

Doesn't look that good.😒

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## Rahil khan

Reminds me colour scheme those A-5 Fantans.

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## White privilege

Deino said:


> Ok guys ... as promised, I received the "go - let's publish" and here it is!
> 
> View attachment 874413
> 
> View attachment 874414
> 
> 
> And here an even closer one ...
> 
> View attachment 874415


Looks scarier..!! 💥🐲🐉

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## syed_yusuf

Deino said:


> Ok guys ... as promised, I received the "go - let's publish" and here it is!
> 
> View attachment 874413
> 
> View attachment 874414
> 
> 
> And here an even closer one ...
> 
> View attachment 874415


Is this honorary pain job for the squadron it is replacing or the new pain scheme for j10cp?


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## Dazzler

syed_yusuf said:


> Is this honorary pain job for the squadron it is replacing or the new pain scheme for j10cp?


Squadron paint job.



Syntage said:


> Doesn't look that good.😒


Agreed. Doesn't suit the aircraft for some reason.

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## Dazzler



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## Jango

This has the WW2 RAF Spitfire vibes.

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## Flight of falcon

Wonder which air to ground weapons are coming with the next batch.

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## White privilege

Jango said:


> This has the WW2 RAF Spitfire vibes.


May be the photo quality is wanting, so it looks like an RC model.😄


----------



## syed_yusuf

Dazzler said:


> Squadron paint job.
> 
> 
> Agreed. Doesn't suit the aircraft for some reason.


If this is a squadron pain scheme... Just wonder why ? Why can't we adopt modern paint job like one used on f35


----------



## MastanKhan

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 874484


Hi,

That is one poor color scheme ---. I doubt if it real.

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## Ghessan

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 874484


it seems number is 22-114, 

also blue at the bottom although seems lighter than mirages, it must be further faded like the summer sky in Pakistan.


----------



## PakFactor

Dazzler said:


> Squadron paint job.
> 
> 
> Agreed. Doesn't suit the aircraft for some reason.



Someone needs to send a message to PAF to reverse course on this color scheme, it’s like a model turned ugly on purpose.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Looks like the Chinese want to ensure the Indian Ocean doesn't meant it belongs exclusively to India....

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## Beast

PakFactor said:


> Someone needs to send a message to PAF to reverse course on this color scheme, it’s like a model turned ugly on purpose.


Camouflage is more for practical warfare and not for the most nice looking.

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## RAMPAGE

A digital camouflage would have looked nicer, lol.

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## Ghessan

syed_yusuf said:


> Is this honorary pain job for the squadron it is replacing or the new pain scheme for j10cp?


i wish it is honorary, as @RAMPAGE said a digital camouflage, would be a better option.

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## kursed

Just to please the chief and doesn’t serve any purpose. Waste of resources. As with all things Pakistani, we have all the money in the world to burn on frivolous projects.

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## Princeps Senatus

kursed said:


> Just to please the chief and doesn’t serve any purpose. Waste of resources. As with all things Pakistani, we have all the money in the world to burn on frivolous projects.


What are you on about? It has to be painted anyways, it's just different colors instead of gray. There is nothing wrong with this, it's good to spice things up sometimes, or everything gets boring

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## Trango Towers

Princeps Senatus said:


> What are you on about? It has to be painted anyways, it's just different colors instead of gray. There is nothing wrong with this, it's good to spice things up sometimes, or everything gets boring


Purpose of camouflage is?


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## Princeps Senatus

Trango Towers said:


> Purpose of camouflage is?


cosmetic


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Trango Towers said:


> Purpose of camouflage is?



Mirage walay ACM Sahab ke farmaish hai janab.

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## Zephyrus

The new camo looks decent; Looks like a one off thing for the official squadron induction; i.e. to fly next to a bunch of mirages in a fly past. :/
but wait what do I know, I am just someone with a keyboard and an internet connection.

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## Abid123

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Looks like the Chinese want to ensure the Indian Ocean doesn't meant it belongs exclusively to India....


Bro you need the J-16 for that job not J-10C.


----------



## Deino

Abid123 said:


> Bro you need the J-16 for that job not J-10C.




Indeed, but please do not open this can of worms again! I remember the countless promises last summer - almost one year ago - by some here, who claimed, Flankers, not only J-15s but also J-16s, several J-20s and Typhoon €fighters already landed in Pakistan only to be revealed "very soon"! ... or again certain members come back withe the strory, only the JH-7A can fulfil that role and Pakistan will get them sooooooooooon!"

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## Deino

RAMPAGE said:


> A digital camouflage would have looked nicer, lol.




Like this one!!!!   


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564264549011886081

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## RAMPAGE

Deino said:


> Like this one!!!!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564264549011886081


These are clearly three different camouflages.

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## Deino

RAMPAGE said:


> These are clearly three different camouflages.



These two!

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## Abid123

Deino said:


> Indeed, but please do not open this can of worms again! I remember the countless promises last summer - almost one year ago - by some here, who claimed, Flankers, not only J-15s but also J-16s, several J-20s and Typhoon €fighters already landed in Pakistan only to be revealed "very soon"! ... or again certain members come back withe the strory, only the JH-7A can fulfil that role and Pakistan will get them sooooooooooon!"


I know very well which member/members you are talking about lol. 

Also is PAF going to receive JH-7A for maritime strike?😁

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## TheDarkKnight

kursed said:


> Just to please the chief and doesn’t serve any purpose. Waste of resources. As with all things Pakistani, we have all the money in the world to burn on frivolous projects.


So it is just new colors and not related to J10C deployment for maritime roles?


----------



## RAMPAGE

Deino said:


> These two!
> 
> View attachment 874737


What are you implying?


----------



## kursed

TheDarkKnight said:


> So it is just new colors and not related to J10C deployment for maritime roles?


Just a camo. And maritime strike doesn’t need an obsolete camo like this.

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## TheDarkKnight

Deino said:


> Indeed, but please do not open this can of worms again! I remember the countless promises last summer - almost one year ago - by some here, who claimed, Flankers, not only J-15s but also J-16s, several J-20s and Typhoon €fighters already landed in Pakistan only to be revealed "very soon"! ... or again certain members come back withe the strory, only the JH-7A can fulfil that role and Pakistan will get them sooooooooooon!"


You forgot about f16 block 70s and V upgrades. After all, aren’t you a foreign spy trying to degrade our top secret capabilities?

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## Metal 0-1

Deino said:


> Ok guys ... as promised, I received the "go - let's publish" and here it is!
> 
> View attachment 874413
> 
> View attachment 874414
> 
> 
> And here an even closer one ...
> 
> View attachment 874415


Unpopular opinion but it looks bad



Deino said:


> These two!
> 
> View attachment 874737


They should do Gripen inspired splinter camo. 

Otherwise the good old light grey goes hard


----------



## Deino

RAMPAGE said:


> What are you implying?




Only that I like this artwork and not so much the real camo.


----------



## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564308800852705281

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## Super Falcon

New EW varient look way too much better

I hope a best Electronic attack system will be used in J 10D 






These can now perform Electronic attacks on the go with thunders and F 16 we lacked such capability

These can now perform Electronic attacks on the go with thunders and F 16 we lacked such capability

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## Deino

Super Falcon said:


> New EW varient look way too much better
> 
> I hope a best Electronic attack system will be used in J 10D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These can now perform Electronic attacks on the go with thunders and F 16 we lacked such capability
> 
> These can now perform Electronic attacks on the go with thunders and F 16 we lacked such capability




Oh man, not that crap again ... you take a well-known what-if artwork mixed with rumours as face-value for a J-10D EW-variant and post a random stupid fan-boy video here in the PAF thread jut to hype your fantasies!!!  

Simply again: There is no J-10D EW-variant, all Pakistani ones so far - including all Batch 02 we've seen - have no special EW-system, no enlarged spine, no CFT!

So stop spreading BS!

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## Talon

@Deino so you are not going to break today's news? 🤓

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## WaqarAhmed161247

Deino said:


> Oh man, not that crap again ... you take a well-known what-if artwork mixed with rumours as face-value for a J-10D EW-variant and post a random stupid fan-boy video here in the PAF thread jut to hype your fantasies!!!
> 
> Simply again: There is no J-10D EW-variant, all Pakistani ones so far - including all Batch 02 we've seen - have no special EW-system, no enlarged spine, no CFT!
> 
> So stop spreading BS!


Disappointing..we were expecting all these goodies in j-10cd but you blocked all roads once and for all.ok we wait more shouted roumer about j-16D now if it really proved true.


----------



## Deino

WaqarAhmed161247 said:


> Disappointing..we were expecting all these goodies in j-10cd but you blocked all roads once and for all.ok we wait more shouted roumer about j-16D now if it really proved true.




I assume you are joking?  ... I'm not blocking anything; I#m only telling the realistic side of the story and to get an as yet fantasy J-10D EW variant with the next delivery is as much unlikely as for India getting Tu-160 bombers or Pakistan getting J-16s. 

Just the facts.



Talon said:


> @Deino so you are not going to break today's news? 🤓




In fact I'm currently working hard on my book to get it done, so in case there is something really exciting, I must have missed it  ... any hint?

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## araz

Abid123 said:


> I know very well which member/members you are talking about lol.
> 
> Also is PAF going to receive JH-7A for maritime strike?😁


Wo ishq jo hum e chooth gaya
Ab uska Haal batain kya
Bhai JH7 is dead in the sea. PAF was never interested.
A

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## WaqarAhmed161247

araz said:


> Wo ishq jo hum e chooth gaya
> Ab uska Haal batain kya
> Bhai JH7 is dead in the sea. PAF was never interested.
> A


where are those new birds landed in pakistan last year i.e jh-7, J-15s, F-16 block 70/72,and upgraded vipers etc. as per a man well aware of every new procurement by pak armed forces or new acquisition under negotiations but suddenly that source has vanished from his forum and may be under hibernation now for time being.you understand about whom i am talking.Are we all are so fools and ignorant about ground realities that any one can make us phuddo?..excuse me.

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## MastanKhan

WaqarAhmed161247 said:


> where are those new birds landed in pakistan last year i.e jh-7, J-15s, F-16 block 70/72,and upgraded vipers etc. as per a man well aware of every new procurement by pak armed forces or new acquisition under negotiations but suddenly that source has vanished from his forum and may be under hibernation now for time being.you understand about whom i am talking.Are we all are so fools and ignorant about ground realities that any one can make us phood?..excuse me.


Hi,

There is information and then there is dis-information & both are very very important for a country like pakistan whose enemy's have a lots of influence over some of the sellers of the merchandise.

Out of the batch---you got the J10-C's.

I hope you are not naive enough to believe that you would be getting more than one type of aircraft at the same time.

We got the Jordanian F16's---and no one knew till we got the aircraft.

For the J10---only at the last moment the information came out that we are getting them---. Otherwise it was all speculation.

Sometime news is spread for getting something totally opposite to what you are getting---.

I know there is an " honest Sam " over here who does not like this procedure.

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## WaqarAhmed161247

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is information and then there is dis-information & both are very very important for a country like pakistan whose enemy's have a lots of influence over some of the sellers of the merchandise.
> 
> Out of the batch---you got the J10-C's.
> 
> I hope you are not naive enough to believe that you would be getting more than one type of aircraft at the same time.
> 
> We got the Jordanian F16's---and no one knew till we got the aircraft.
> 
> For the J10---only at the last moment the information came out that we are getting them---. Otherwise it was all speculation.
> 
> Sometime news is spread for getting something totally opposite to what you are getting---.
> 
> I know there is an " honest Sam " over here who does not like this procedure.


Thanks for explaining me the real purpose and aims for spreading such rumors or news.

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## araz

WaqarAhmed161247 said:


> Thanks for explaining me the real purpose and aims for spreading such rumors or news.


I have a different theory. PAF's eyes were opened to J10during the exercises. However because of current infrastructure it wanted more F16s. It played one against the other to see what it could get. The US did not budge as it is currengly courting India which will baulk at the first mention of US weaponry supplied to Pak army. So PAF ended up getting J10s. Obviously all evaluations were done and the bird was found to be really impressive. However if PAF had been offered Bl. 72s it would have ran towards them for various well known reasons.
A

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## baqai

Deino said:


> Ok guys ... as promised, I received the "go - let's publish" and here it is!
> 
> View attachment 874413
> 
> View attachment 874414
> 
> 
> And here an even closer one ...
> 
> View attachment 874415



hmmm have mixed feelings towards this, maybe it's one of those things you like with passage of time

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## Deino

WaqarAhmed161247 said:


> Thanks for explaining me the real purpose and aims for spreading such rumors or news.




What he does not understand is, that "information and then there is dis-information & both are very very important" is indeed correct, but only works as long as dis-information is realistic. Claiming pure non-sense and BS - like J-15s, J-16s, €s, Vipers, Type 055 and the Liaoning - oh, wait I forgot the allmighty JH-7A!  - and all for free, and than bashing any critics as stupid, simply foreign or an enemy to Pakistan is nothing but embarrassing.

But it seems he does not understand and I have only little hope he will ever learn.

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## syed_yusuf

Can we be back to j10cp discussion please


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## Deino

syed_yusuf said:


> Can we be back to j10cp discussion please




Yes for sure ... and indeed there are rumours, Batch 2 has arrived. Albeit no images yet!

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## WaqarAhmed161247

Deino said:


> What he does not understand is, that "information and then there is dis-information & both are very very important" is indeed correct, but only works as long as dis-information is realistic. Claiming pure non-sense and BS - like J-15s, J-16s, €s, Vipers, Type 055 and the Liaoning - oh, wait I forgot the allmighty JH-7A!  - and all for free, and than bashing any critics as stupid, simply foreign or an enemy to Pakistan is nothing but embarrassing.
> 
> But it seems he does not understand and I have only little hope he will ever learn.


Include Gunships cobra/Zuloo in the list also ,already landed some where in south punjab.😂😃😄

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## Talon

Deino said:


> Yes for sure ... and indeed there are rumours, Batch 2 has arrived. Albeit no images yet!


That's why I mentioned you yesterday 🙂

And you won't be seeing any photos until official release

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## Deino

Talon said:


> That's why I mentioned you yesterday 🙂
> 
> And you won't be seeing any photos until official release




I know ... early September is the date! But I already know now, my impatience will kill me again.

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## Signalian

araz said:


> I have a different theory. PAF's eyes were opened to J10during the exercises. However because of current infrastructure it wanted more F16s. It played one against the other to see what it could get. The US did not budge as it is currengly courting India which will baulk at the first mention of US weaponry supplied to Pak army. So PAF ended up getting J10s. Obviously all evaluations were done and the bird was found to be really impressive. However if PAF had been offered Bl. 72s it would have ran towards them for various well known reasons.
> A


J-10 standing today in PAF colors instantly kills the rhetoric of Pakistan Military leadership bowing heads in front of western leadership. Wouldn't PAF want to get its hands on new/used F-16s any way it can, therefore Pakistani Generals selling souls to USA, Pakistani military leadership not trust worthy, or having no clue, or making all wrong decisions as well as other Political pomposity against Pakistan Armed Forces and Pakistan Military top brass just makes its way to the rubbish bin.

Hopefully J-10 squadrons will increase with up gradation of weaponry and newer EW suites to counter modern threats.

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## syed_yusuf

Deino said:


> I know ... early September is the date! But I already know now, my impatience will kill me again.


Awesome news 

With chinese production capability, don't you think the induction of j10cp is bit slow or it is paf that needs time to operationalize it ?

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## Shabi1

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 874484


This implies PAF has chosen the J-10 to be inducted as a frontline strike platform with southern command so induction won't be limited with just 2 squadrons and actual numbers would be higher than 36. The color scheme indicates it would be doing naval strike in coordination with ZDK-03 AWACs which this aircraft is more suitable than JF-17 to do.

Next order would like to see PAF move towards the J-10D which has a enlarged spine for more fuel/avionics similar to F-16D.

The other indicator in PAF seeing greater role for J-10 means there is less reliance/urgency on JF-17 to handle everything and it doesn't have hopes of F-16 number increase. We had put too much hope on the JF-17 and that design is a jack of all trades but being lightweight has load out limits, JF-17B3 and + will continue to enhance operations by simplifying operational costs and indigenization. But for now PAFs main player will now be the J-10.


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## Windjammer

Talon said:


> That's why I mentioned you yesterday 🙂
> 
> And you won't be seeing any photos until official release


At least four freelance photographers who provided most of the material on social media have been reprimanded thus those poor guys can just report verbaly.

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## Deino

Shabi1 said:


> This implies PAF has chosen the J-10 to be inducted as a frontline strike platform with southern command so induction won't be limited with just 2 squadrons and actual numbers would be higher than 36. The color scheme indicates it would be doing naval strike in coordination with ZDK-03 AWACs which this aircraft is more suitable than JF-17 to do.
> 
> Next order would like to see PAF move towards the J-10D which has a enlarged spine for more fuel/avionics similar to F-16D.
> 
> The other indicator in PAF seeing greater role for J-10 means there is less reliance/urgency on JF-17 to handle everything and it doesn't have hopes of F-16 number increase. We had put too much hope on the JF-17 and that design is a jack of all trades but being lightweight has load out limits, JF-17B3 and + will continue to enhance operations by simplifying operational costs and indigenization. But for now PAFs main player will now be the J-10.




Once again, this is not a J-10D!! It is not an EW-variant and at least this one is NOT for Pakistan.

Pakistan gets its J-10Cs as J-10CE which are from a different production batch, this is contrast is a "non-regular" J-10C batch 07 according to PLAAF standard but with this unique modification. If it is a sole airframe for test, a new subtype for the Ba Ya (what I think) or for whatever is not known, but at least now there is nothing that directly says "I'm for Pakistan"!

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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> What he does not understand is, that "information and then there is dis-information & both are very very important" is indeed correct, but only works as long as dis-information is realistic. Claiming pure non-sense and BS - like J-15s, J-16s, €s, Vipers, Type 055 and the Liaoning - oh, wait I forgot the allmighty JH-7A!  - and all for free, and than bashing any critics as stupid, simply foreign or an enemy to Pakistan is nothing but embarrassing.
> 
> But it seems he does not understand and I have only little hope he will ever learn.


Hi,

How about the 054's and the subs---they happened. The J10's happened---.

I have talked about "real" procurement---and you are glorifying your accomplishment by posting a picture of a paint job---.

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> How about the 054's and the subs---they happened. The J10's happened---.
> 
> I have talked about "real" procurement---and you are glorifying your accomplishment by posting a picture of a paint job---.




... while at the same time ignoring all your other lies and claims and insisting we would have downplayed also the 054 & J-10. Those however were never in question, only all your other wet-dreams and faked ambitions. And I'm not glorifying this image, I'm only enjoying it, but since it is known that for you the joy of others always equals to resentment and bitterness, it doesn't matter what you think.

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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> ... while at the same time ignoring all your other lies and claims and insisting we would have downplayed also the 054 & J-10. Those however were never in question, only all your other wet-dreams and faked ambitions. And I'm not glorifying this image, I'm only enjoying it, but since it is known that for you the joy of others always equals to resentment and bitterness, it doesn't matter what you think.


Hi,

Wet dreams you might have young man. I live in the real world.

Just look at yourself---. On a paint job---and just a photo someone gave you---you have been acting like you found the unicorn.

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## Deino

Ghessan said:


>



I know you know more ...


----------



## Talon

Windjammer said:


> At least four freelance photographers who provided most of the material on social media have been reprimanded thus those poor guys can just report verbaly.


Yeah I am very well aware of the incident and the people involved.. but they were at the wrong imo because if the air force doesn't want civilians to spot it's planes especially new arrivals then they should refrain.. 

There are many spotters in Pakistan and in the recent past they had been posting pictures of operations at different bases, so this was bound to happen... Myself being from this community, one could argue that what's the harm in posting pictures of serialed aircrafts but once again, if the authorities dont like it then they should stop.

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## siegecrossbow

Windjammer said:


> At least four freelance photographers who provided most of the material on social media have been reprimanded thus those poor guys can just report verbaly.



Do Pakistanis security guards invite photographers for tea like they do in Chengdu or are those reserved for shot down pilots?

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## MastanKhan

Talon said:


> Yeah I am very well aware of the incident and the people involved.. but they were at the wrong imo because if the air force doesn't want civilians to spot it's planes especially new arrivals then they should refrain..
> 
> There are many spotters in Pakistan and in the recent past they had been posting pictures of operations at different bases, so this was bound to happen... Myself being from this community, one could argue that what's the harm in posting pictures of serialed aircrafts but once again, if the authorities dont like it then they should stop.


Hi,

Pak military allows it---that is why it happens.


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## Talon

siegecrossbow said:


> Do Pakistanis security guards invite photographers for tea like they do in Chengdu or are those reserved for shot down pilots?


They give same treatment to uninvited photographers as they did to that shot down pilot..



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pak military allows it---that is why it happens.


No, Pak Mil doesn't allow civilians or serving personnel to photograph it's equipment without approval..

They had been ignoring all this unofficial photography for years until certain cases happened (I won't disclose them here on public forum but @Windjammer has identified one above) and then the military decided enough is enough... Now after certain measures taken by the authorities, you won't see much of unofficial photography of any sorts and even if some certain people who are still posting photos then those photos are from their archives..

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## syed_yusuf

My initial assumptions were that PAF will eventually have 5 -6 full J10C squadrons by the time all are procured. It seems like financial crunch might impact the plan


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## Trango Towers

syed_yusuf said:


> My initial assumptions were that PAF will eventually have 5 -6 full J10C squadrons by the time all are procured. It seems like financial crunch might impact the plan


Remember the earthquake and f16.
Now floods and j10C

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## GriffinsRule

Signalian said:


> J-10 standing today in PAF colors instantly kills the rhetoric of Pakistan Military leadership bowing heads in front of western leadership. Wouldn't PAF want to get its hands on new/used F-16s any way it can, therefore Pakistani Generals selling souls to USA, Pakistani military leadership not trust worthy, or having no clue, or making all wrong decisions as well as other Political pomposity against Pakistan Armed Forces and Pakistan Military top brass just makes its way to the rubbish bin.
> 
> Hopefully J-10 squadrons will increase with up gradation of weaponry and newer EW suites to counter modern threats.


Sadly it does not. Our generals capitulate quite often



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> How about the 054's and the subs---they happened. The J10's happened---.
> 
> I have talked about "real" procurement---and you are glorifying your accomplishment by posting a picture of a paint job---.


Subs have not happened yet though

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## Ghessan

Deino said:


> I know you know more ...


 
oh please don't, i am not the one who like to create hype for petty things.


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## Deino

Nice but not real !!! … please beware this is only a photoshop fake made by @长征后卫薛伯陵 from Weibo. Telltale is the serial number 106, since this aircraft was part of the first batch.

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## MH.Yang

Talon said:


> They give same treatment to uninvited photographers as they did to that shot down pilot..
> 
> 
> No, Pak Mil doesn't allow civilians or serving personnel to photograph it's equipment without approval..
> 
> They had been ignoring all this unofficial photography for years until certain cases happened (I won't disclose them here on public forum but @Windjammer has identified one above) and then the military decided enough is enough... Now after certain measures taken by the authorities, you won't see much of unofficial photography of any sorts and even if some certain people who are still posting photos then those photos are from their archives..


I remember that the pilot's face area got a lot bigger before drinking tea…

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## Talon

Deino said:


> Nice but not real !!! … please beware this is only a photoshop fake made by @长征后卫薛伯陵 from Weibo. Telltale is the serial number 106, since this aircraft was part of the first batch.
> 
> View attachment 875354
> View attachment 875355


And this cancerous photo is now everywhere on Facebook with the caption of : EXCLUSIVE CONTENT

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## Deino

Talon said:


> And this cancerous photo is now everywhere on Facebook with the caption of : EXCLUSIVE CONTENT




Yes, idiots are everywhere and some simply have no will to learn

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## Signalian

Nasr said:


> When the illegally deposed, former Prime Minister of Pakistan, Imran Khan was on a State Visit to Moscow, the Chief of Pakistan Army was jetting off to Washington DC. That right there exposed Bajwa as a traitor to Islam and by that right, Pakistan.
> 
> The "leadership" of Pakistan Army has betrayed Pakistanis, has betrayed Islam and has shown a very dangerous and ominous sign that if Pakistanis were to stand up and fight for their rights, a Civil War is on the horizon.
> 
> With Bajwa's despicable act of treachery, he has exposed the naked truth that Pakistan Military's leadership is in bed with the Zionist West, just as "Imported Government" is.
> 
> I don't know about you, but for me, my leader is Nabi Muhammad Alaihi Salaat-u-Wassalam, not bajwa-co. And I would rather fight and die for preserving Imaan in Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah than to accept bajwa, shabaz, bilawal, maryam or zardari as my leaders ... I would rather die fighting for my faith in Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah and my right to be a FREE MUSLIM, than submit to these traitors scum.


👍🏻 Good for you

Back to J-10 now.

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## siegecrossbow

Signalian said:


> 👍🏻 Good for you
> 
> Back to J-10 now.



Any pilot feedback/leaked info about how things are going? It has been a few months since March.

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## Princeps Senatus

siegecrossbow said:


> Any pilot feedback/leaked info about how things are going? It has been a few months since March.


turns out we have even stricter OPSEC than you

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## arslank03

Nasr said:


> When the illegally deposed, former Prime Minister of Pakistan, Imran Khan was on a State Visit to Moscow, the Chief of Pakistan Army was jetting off to Washington DC. That right there exposed Bajwa as a traitor to Islam and by that right, Pakistan.
> 
> The "leadership" of Pakistan Army has betrayed Pakistanis, has betrayed Islam and has shown a very dangerous and ominous sign that if Pakistanis were to stand up and fight for their rights, a Civil War is on the horizon.
> 
> With Bajwa's despicable act of treachery, he has exposed the naked truth that Pakistan Military's leadership is in bed with the Zionist West, just as "Imported Government" is.
> 
> I don't know about you, but for me, my leader is Nabi Muhammad Alaihi Salaat-u-Wassalam, not bajwa-co. And I would rather fight and die for preserving Imaan in Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah than to accept bajwa, shabaz, bilawal, maryam or zardari as my leaders ... I would rather die fighting for my faith in Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah and my right to be a FREE MUSLIM, than submit to these traitors scum.




traitor to islam, by going to DC? IK going to Russia is okay by the same logic? Do you forget that Ruskies tried to wipe islam out of our neighbourhood and sanctioned state atheism or does that go against your narritive

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## Trango Towers

arslank03 said:


> traitor to islam, by going to DC? IK going to Russia is okay by the same logic? Do you forget that Ruskies tried to wipe islam out of our neighbourhood and sanctioned state atheism or does that go against your narritive


You cannot defend bajwa. He is tye enemy and so are most of the generals...

Our lions (jawans) lead by fake cowards and slaves of the enemy of Pakistan (aka generals)

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## Falcon26

siegecrossbow said:


> Any pilot feedback/leaked info about how things are going? It has been a few months since March.



User review: J-10 rides sweeter than the most exclusive Arabian horse and flies smoother than the most majestic eagles.

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## Talon

siegecrossbow said:


> Any pilot feedback/leaked info about how things are going? It has been a few months since March.


July's edition of Second to None magazine has some good stuff in it including pilot interviews

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## Falcon26

Talon said:


> July's edition of Second to None magazine has some good stuff in it including pilot interviews



Can you kindly share a link?

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## Beast

Signalian said:


> J-10 standing today in PAF colors instantly kills the rhetoric of Pakistan Military leadership bowing heads in front of western leadership. Wouldn't PAF want to get its hands on new/used F-16s any way it can, therefore Pakistani Generals selling souls to USA, Pakistani military leadership not trust worthy, or having no clue, or making all wrong decisions as well as other Political pomposity against Pakistan Armed Forces and Pakistan Military top brass just makes its way to the rubbish bin.
> 
> Hopefully J-10 squadrons will increase with up gradation of weaponry and newer EW suites to counter modern threats.


J-10 will purchase during Imran Khan reign.


----------



## MastanKhan

Talon said:


> *They had been ignoring all this unofficial photography for years until certain cases happened (I won't disclose them here on public forum but @Windjammer has identified one above) and then the military decided enough is enough... Now after certain measures taken by the authorities, you won't see much of unofficial photography of any sorts and even if some certain people who are still posting photos then those photos are from their archives..*


Hi,

"enough is enough " translates to---they allowed it to happen out of being callous and careless---till it got out of hand---.

If they had stepped hard right from day one---things would not be this bad.

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## The Terminator

Bossman said:


> It was derived from the Lavi. It’s not a secret


millennium 7 * history tech would contradict to your statement. He is far more logical and experienced in this field. But J-10 was never copied or derived from the lavi. And I think Chinese were tinkering with delta canard designs before lavi came to life. A bit of help and support from Israel can't be ruled out though and countries do cooperate with each other.

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## The Terminator

Deino said:


> Please, be a bit more patient… I’m already impatient enough on my own since I’m not yet allowed to share this information.


Bro feel free to share here now. The J10C in Mirage's camo is already viral all over the social media of Pakistan. There isn't any secret left in it here 🤭


----------



## Deino

The Terminator said:


> Bro feel free to share here now. The J10C in Mirage's camo is already viral all over the social media of Pakistan. There isn't any secret left in it here 🤭



I already did

Here the first ...





PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion


Seems like airframe 22-112 has been applied with the Mirage type camouflage with ''Cobra'' unit patch on the tail. Another image from the first batch. Such a beautiful jet.



defence.pk





... and second:





PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion


Seems like airframe 22-112 has been applied with the Mirage type camouflage with ''Cobra'' unit patch on the tail. Another image from the first batch. Such a beautiful jet.



defence.pk

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## The Terminator

JohnWick said:


> Pakistan can make upto 30 jets in a year with its limited resources at Kamra
> Does a country like china can not make 40 jets in 6 months.Do the math ....
> Yesterday I have seen a pic of 5 destroyers I repeat again 5 destroyers was being built at a shipyard....You know what that means ?
> It has more fire power than the entire indian navy fleet if you add some frigates and subs in it....
> I am astonished since then....If you find comfortable, then export these 5 destroyers to us


Give them money and they would deliver those to your doorsteps 😝


----------



## The Terminator

Metal 0-1 said:


> Unpopular opinion but it looks bad
> 
> 
> They should do Gripen inspired splinter camo.
> 
> Otherwise the good old light grey goes hard


I would like to see J-10C in latest Russian camo pattern of Su-57. It looks damn good! PAF could have copied their pattern and use their own color scheme on it.


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## The Terminator

Signalian said:


> J-10 standing today in PAF colors instantly kills the rhetoric of Pakistan Military leadership bowing heads in front of western leadership. Wouldn't PAF want to get its hands on new/used F-16s any way it can, therefore Pakistani Generals selling souls to USA, Pakistani military leadership not trust worthy, or having no clue, or making all wrong decisions as well as other Political pomposity against Pakistan Armed Forces and Pakistan Military top brass just makes its way to the rubbish bin.
> 
> Hopefully J-10 squadrons will increase with up gradation of weaponry and newer EW suites to counter modern threats.


I think China should also export it's film industry products to Pakistan more often. Some Hollywood style movies. Market some Chinese beautiful, natural but modern islands, nice beaches with bikini girls and parties there. It would definitely make an impact on Pakistani leadership to think of retiring in China instead of Australia, Belgium etc. 😜

Mandarin should also be made a compulsory subject for the cadets, if it hasn't been already done. The penetration of English language, western culture and our subordination tendencies to the west for centuries have really paralyzed the thought process and decision making of the top brass.

CCP should seriously act upon those lines too. Wanna get our top of the line military equipment for cheap on installments? Then embrace our language and culture too. 😜

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## The Terminator

Nasr said:


> When the illegally deposed, former Prime Minister of Pakistan, Imran Khan was on a State Visit to Moscow, the Chief of Pakistan Army was jetting off to Washington DC. That right there exposed Bajwa as a traitor to Islam and by that right, Pakistan.
> 
> The "leadership" of Pakistan Army has betrayed Pakistanis, has betrayed Islam and has shown a very dangerous and ominous sign that if Pakistanis were to stand up and fight for their rights, a Civil War is on the horizon.
> 
> With Bajwa's despicable act of treachery, he has exposed the naked truth that Pakistan Military's leadership is in bed with the Zionist West, just as "Imported Government" is.
> 
> I don't know about you, but for me, my leader is Nabi Muhammad Alaihi Salaat-u-Wassalam, not bajwa-co. And I would rather fight and die for preserving Imaan in Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah than to accept bajwa, shabaz, bilawal, maryam or zardari as my leaders ... I would rather die fighting for my faith in Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah and my right to be a FREE MUSLIM, than submit to these traitors scum.


I respect your emotions but actually they don't kill. They abduct and torture the person untill his soul is torn apart in pieces like his self esteem and bones. 

And I can assure you, it's even worse than being hit by an artillery shell and instantly die into several small pieces of the body.


----------



## Dazzler

siegecrossbow said:


> Any pilot feedback/leaked info about how things are going? It has been a few months since March.


PAF jockeys instantly fall in love with anything that offers excellent t/w ratio. Case being the Farmers, Vipers, and now the Firebird. This thing can climb fast I tell you.

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## MastanKhan

The Terminator said:


> millennium 7 * history tech would contradict to your statement. He is far more logical and experienced in this field. But J-10 was never copied or derived from the lavi. And I think Chinese were tinkering with delta canard designs before lavi came to life. A bit of help and support from Israel can't be ruled out though and countries do cooperate with each other.


Hi,

Indeed he would---certain reasons.

See---the chinese needed a CRUTCH to project forward---. The Lavi provided that stepping stone.

JF17 is in front of us---. Could not copy the Grippen.

For a smart engineer---you just need to get the hint of what is real and what is not. Lavi provided that resource---it provided THAT FINAL CONFIRMATION that if such & such things were done---the project would be a success.

Now pakistanis can say with pride---we have Israeli TECHNOLOGY at hand---J-10CP---if you want to ---we can call it J-10 CPI


ie J-10 Chinese Pakistan Israel

Remember Edison just got the hint from Tesla----.

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## Talon

Nasr said:


> Washington is the leader of the West and the West is a murdering, usurping, demonizing, cult. Millions killed, rendered homeless/landless and that too under the guise of freedom and democracy. From Bikini Islands, Hawaii, Vietnam, Iraq, Grenada, Panama, Cuba, Yugoslavia, Syria, Libya, Native Americans, Korea and Japan have lost hundreds of thousands of their people to war by the West.
> 
> As for Russia, there are nearly 22 million Muslims in Russia, Orthodox Christian Russia. A Bolshevik Atheist-Jewish Soviet Union that invaded Afghanistan is NOT Russia. And if you do not know the difference, its no wonder your ignorance runs so deep. Russian Federation today is by far the most balanced, steady and firm power there has been in their entire history. Go read some history books before making such ignorant comments.
> 
> Also, who was the architect of creating the Zionist State of Israel? Answer, Britain! Who succeeded and now leads the West? America! The same America that gives the Zionist State of Israel $3 billion, year on year in military aid.
> 
> A traitor to Islam are those who side with the West, as it is the West who protects and arms the illegal, illegitimate, Zionist Apartheid Israel. And if you do not know why supporting Zionist Israel is unIslamic, then I suggest you go do your homework in the study of the Holy Quran.


Please take your rant somewhere else..this is not the right thread .. stop derailing it

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## Nasr

The Terminator said:


> I respect your emotions but actually they don't kill. They abduct and torture the person untill his soul is torn apart in pieces like his self esteem and bones.
> 
> And I can assure you, it's even worse than being hit by an artillery shell and instantly die into several small pieces of the body.



My dear friend, nothing, I repeat nothing can compare to the unimaginable punishment that awaits those who betray their faith in Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah. So whether there be an artillery shell, or excruciating torture .... what awaits traitors to Islam in their graves is will make their soul scream in frightening pain.



Talon said:


> Please take your rant somewhere else..this is not the right thread .. stop derailing it



J-10s are the best possible option for Pakistan Air Force, that can be capitalized upon by establishing similar sort of infrastructure which is in place for the F-16s. The best part about J-10s, they cannot be sanctioned or embargoed.

As for my other posts, it would be highly irresponsible of any Pakistani to ignore what's going on in the country. 

I didn't intend to derail the thread.

Good day to you.

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## syed_yusuf

J10CP is the only 4.5+ gen sanction free option available to Pakistan that provides maximum bang for the buck. PAF can integrate all sorts of weapons to this platform and would serve Pakistan for next 25+ years without any issues IA. PAF can get upto 6 full squadrons on easy payment terms that does not involved payments in dollars. This fighter will ease pressure on JF17 project. Yes, it is not Blk72, Rafael, EF2000, SU-35, J16 or SH. But it is no less. It has all the bells and whistles that any of the other mentioned fighters have. Bit more is that, PAF gets source code and direct access to manufacture and engineering team for future evolution and upgrades that will fit PAF operational needs.

If PAF gets these squadrons faster, this fighter could very well tilt a bit the balance of air power to PAF till 5th gen comes on line. 

in short a good buy and good thinking. only if PAC could get some manufacturing to participate in the project, that will be icing on the cake.


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## Deino

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> A Pakistan Air Force J-10CP 4.5+ generation omnirole fighter aircraft sporting a Dark Olive Green and Sea Blue tactical camouflage colours, with Sky Blue underneath. This is from the upcoming batch of J-10CPs to be delivered to Pakistan.
> View attachment 875648




Oh, you really seem to have one and only obsession: To re-re-re-post images, that have either been already posted long ago, which are off topic or just a few days already several times!  
WHY? Just to earn some clicks ... and even more it would be nice to quote where you found them.

By the way, Not the whole batch is green ... as it seems only this one!

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## Ghessan

syed_yusuf said:


> *J10CP is the only 4.5+ gen sanction free option available to Pakistan that provides maximum bang for the buck. *PAF can integrate all sorts of weapons to this platform and would serve Pakistan for next 25+ years without any issues IA. PAF can get upto 6 full squadrons on easy payment terms that does not involved payments in dollars. This fighter will ease pressure on JF17 project. Yes, it is not Blk72, Rafael, EF2000, SU-35, J16 or SH. But it is no less. It has all the bells and whistles that any of the other mentioned fighters have. Bit more is that, PAF gets source code and direct access to manufacture and engineering team for future evolution and upgrades that will fit PAF operational needs.
> 
> If PAF gets these squadrons faster, this fighter could very well tilt a bit the balance of air power to PAF till 5th gen comes on line.
> 
> in short a good buy and good thinking. only if PAC could get some manufacturing to participate in the project, that will be icing on the cake.


I think it is for the very first time Pakistan will be enjoying a capable fighter (east or west besides mirage) with full liberty to extend it's leg to a far reaching effect.

It never happened before, PAF always had itself sanctioned for some reason (war) or strings attached to the purchase.

Untill they have such capable machine from the east for the very first time with no fear of sanctions besides continuous upgrades when available and at their will.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Deino said:


> h, you really seem to have one and only obsession: To re-re-re-post images,


I didn't check the previous posts, nevertheless deleted it.


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## Sayfullah

Nasr said:


> Washington is the leader of the West and the West is a murdering, usurping, demonizing, cult. Millions killed, rendered homeless/landless and that too under the guise of freedom and democracy. From Bikini Islands, Hawaii, Vietnam, Iraq, Grenada, Panama, Cuba, Yugoslavia, Syria, Libya, Native Americans, Korea and Japan have lost hundreds of thousands of their people to war by the West.
> 
> As for Russia, there are nearly 22 million Muslims in Russia, Orthodox Christian Russia. A Bolshevik Atheist-Jewish Soviet Union that invaded Afghanistan is NOT Russia. And if you do not know the difference, its no wonder your ignorance runs so deep. Russian Federation today is by far the most balanced, steady and firm power there has been in their entire history. Go read some history books before making such ignorant comments.
> 
> Also, who was the architect of creating the Zionist State of Israel? Answer, Britain! Who succeeded and now leads the West? America! The same America that gives the Zionist State of Israel $3 billion, year on year in military aid.
> 
> A traitor to Islam are those who side with the West, as it is the West who protects and arms the illegal, illegitimate, Zionist Apartheid Israel. And if you do not know why supporting Zionist Israel is unIslamic, then I suggest you go do your homework in the study of the Holy Quran.


Russia is no different then west. Russians committed and still commit many atrocities against Chechens in Chechnya. Russia supports dictator assad who brutally kills Muslims and Russia directly bombs Muslims in Syria. Russia supports Serbia which genocided Bosnian Muslims. Russians support dictators in Africa which brutally murder Muslims.
Neither west nor east is friends of Muslims. 
Russia is in bed with Israel just as much as usa is.



Nasr said:


> My dear friend, nothing, I repeat nothing can compare to the unimaginable punishment that awaits those who betray their faith in Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah. So whether there be an artillery shell, or excruciating torture .... what awaits traitors to Islam in their graves is will make their soul scream in frightening pain.


Traitors of Islam are those who turn a blind eye to the millions of Muslims worldwide who have to put up with Russian oppression.

Anyways, can’t wait to see clear images of J-10C with mirage camo


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## Deino

Can we come back to the J-10 please?

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## Talon

Deino said:


> Can we come back to the J-10 please?


It's useless to ask them .. better report to mods

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## Trango Towers

The Terminator said:


> I would like to see J-10C in latest Russian camo pattern of Su-57. It looks damn good! PAF could have copied their pattern and use their own color scheme on it.


Yes that's the mindset...copy copy copy.


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## Windjammer



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## Raja Porus

15 sqn is at minhas? Then why the new camo?


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## syed_yusuf

Raja Porus said:


> 15 sqn is at minhas? Then why the new camo?


I am not sure why this paint scheme is so important to discuss page after page. Any paint pattern does not add or subtract the capability of the fighter . For me j10c is like in 1983 Pakistan getting f16

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## Raja Porus

syed_yusuf said:


> I am not sure why this paint scheme is so important to discuss page after page. Any paint pattern does not add or subtract the capability of the fighter . For me j10c is like in 1983 Pakistan getting f16


I'm talking about the role.


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## Irfan Baloch

Trango Towers said:


> Remember the earthquake and f16.
> Now floods and j10C


what a sad coincidence. mishaps are a like a curse that wont leave PAF alone whenever it is primed to update itself.



Nasr said:


> The "leadership" of Pakistan Army has betrayed Pakistanis, has betrayed Islam and has shown a very dangerous and ominous sign that if Pakistanis were to stand up and fight for their rights, a Civil War is on the horizon.
> 
> With Bajwa's despicable act of treachery, he has exposed the naked truth that Pakistan Military's leadership is in bed with the Zionist West, just as "Imported Government" is.


if it were true, then Pakistani loans should've been waived and Pakistan military given access to modern western military hardware.
I don't see any of this happening

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## syed_yusuf

Irfan Baloch said:


> what a sad coincidence. mishaps are a like a curse that wont leave PAF alone whenever it is primed to update itself.
> 
> 
> if it were true, then Pakistani loans should've been waived and Pakistan military given access to modern western military hardware.
> I don't see any of this happening


Your logic is flawed .... Just because individual have done something to benefit others... Others will benefit the country 

It almost never happened

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## PakFactor

Irfan Baloch said:


> what a sad coincidence. mishaps are a like a curse that wont leave PAF alone whenever it is primed to update itself.
> 
> 
> if it were true, then Pakistani loans should've been waived and Pakistan military given access to modern western military hardware.
> I don't see any of this happening



When Genghis Khan attached India, he killed the informants who provided information on the princely states in India. His reasoning was if you couldn't be loyal to your own how can you be to me. Why should the West help Pakistan if Pakistani's themselves willing to bend over before the other side asks? Beggars can't be choosers.

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## Irfan Baloch

syed_yusuf said:


> Your logic is flawed .... Just because individual have done something to benefit others... Others will benefit the country
> 
> It almost never happened


mutual benefit 
those individuals(s) have power over tye country.
its well being or temporary aid boots it and trickles down to their personal benefit. 
hence they dont kill the golden egg laying chicken. other countries must feed them to ensure continued compliance.


nothing unusual there in logic. let's move on. no more responses needed on this off topic difference of opinion.

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## Princeps Senatus

Deino said:


> Can we come back to the J-10 please?


^


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## White privilege

Raja Porus said:


> I'm talking about the role.


I made the point earlier, but members here pointed that this camo may be just for one jet, just like we have _green Thunders. _Just for show, the role remains the same.

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## Deino

White privilege said:


> I made the point earlier, but members here pointed that this camo may be just for one jet, just like we have _green Thunders. _Just for show, the role remains the same.



Exactly my point … but to decide we need more information and so we need to wait


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## Raja Porus

Deino said:


> Exactly my point … but to decide we need more information and so we need to wait





White privilege said:


> I made the point earlier, but members here pointed that this camo may be just for one jet, just like we have _green Thunders. _Just for show, the role remains the same.


If the sqn remains at Minhas then it'll just be for show.


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## Readerdefence

Hi PAF exhausted all it’s option around 2010 onward fRon USA why we getting J10c now coz PAF and Pakistan always want some5hing better then blk52 and offcourse waiting Indians to complete their Rafale sale by virtue of this and offcourse Chinese maturity of Cs in j10 push the sale for PaF another point to be noted is PAF was already taking sorties with Chinese airforce for j10s 
little off topic same is the case with Z10s once upon to the PA standards will be delivered flood or no flood will get there 
about the subs how many test been done by PN for SLBM 
Chinese won’t be keep on rotating and amend their subs to Pakistani requirement again and again PN has to settle SLBM thing once for all what really they want according to specifications and range once settled subs will be coming even one or two 
thank you


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## The Terminator

Deino said:


> Exactly my point … but to decide we need more information and so we need to wait


Your source is in hibernation now? Why don't you give some more hints if multiple jets have similar camo pattern or not, flying in Chengdu or somewhere in China 😜


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## Deino

The Terminator said:


> Your source is in hibernation now? Why don't you give some more hints if multiple jets have similar camo pattern or not, flying in Chengdu or somewhere in China 😜




Indeed, my source went silent but according to him, this is the only one in green/grey, all others delivered were grey again ... and as it seems, the 2nd batch was of only four aircraft up to 22-110. Otherwise at CAC no green ones were noted.

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## Princeps Senatus

Deino said:


> Indeed, my source went silent but according to him, this is the only one in green/grey, all others delivered were grey again ... and as it seems, the 2nd batch was of only four aircraft up to 22-110. Otherwise at CAC no green ones were noted.


But we saw 111...


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## Deino

Princeps Senatus said:


> But we saw 111...




Really? Could you re-post or post that image ... and I know the green 112! But as per my information only fot up to 110 were delivered.


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## Princeps Senatus

Deino said:


> Really? Could you re-post or post that image ... and I know the green 112! But as per my information only fot up to 110 were delivered.

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## MastanKhan

PakFactor said:


> When Genghis Khan attached India, he killed the informants who provided information on the princely states in India. His reasoning was if you couldn't be loyal to your own how can you be to me. Why should the West help Pakistan if Pakistani's themselves willing to bend over before the other side asks? Beggars can't be choosers.


Hi,

He executed those right from day one who switched sides.

His reasoning was if you got much benefits being in your position that you were and if you could not be loyal to the one who gave you those rewards and made you who you are---you won't be loyal to me when a higher bidder came by.



Deino said:


> Can we come back to the J-10 please?


Hi,

Have you been lied to about " that camo paint job"?

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> ….
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Have you been lied to about " that camo paint job"?




The the old man again with a lame attempt to provoke?

No, why do you think I lied? I noted I have a surprise and hinted the colour scheme … later indeed I was the first who posted the images and repeatedly I noted, IMO it is only one in green/grey … so where do you see a lie?

Ah… so since I never published anything technically or tactical so it must be a lie.

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## MastanKhan

Deino said:


> The the old man again with a lame attempt to provoke?
> 
> No, why do you think I lied? I noted I have a surprise and hinted the colour scheme … later indeed I was the first who posted the images and repeatedly I noted, IMO it is only one in green/grey … so where do you see a lie?
> 
> Ah… so since I never published anything technically or tactical so it must be a lie.


Son,

You comprehension of english is very poor---. Now I understand why you retort at my posts.

*Let me state what I asked 
" Hi,

Have you been lied to about " that camo paint jo*b"? ".

*This translates to*---"* did the person who gave you the information lied to you ".*

Deino---son get a life---. I thought you were inteligent---*.*

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## IceCold

Irfan Baloch said:


> if it were true, then Pakistani loans should've been waived and Pakistan military given access to modern western military hardware.
> I don't see any of this happening


Only if someone is demanding anything for Pakistan. Yahan to scene he aleda ha. So why would they offer Pakistan anything when they can buy those in power for a lot less, Foreign nationality, a job over seas, in case of politicians, a place to store their Ill gotten wealth as well as them when thrown out, only to be reinstated later and used as a tool case in point now.

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Son,
> 
> You comprehension of english is very poor---. Now I understand why you retort at my posts.
> 
> *Let me state what I asked
> " Hi,
> 
> Have you been lied to about " that camo paint jo*b"? ".
> 
> *This translates to*---"* did the person who gave you the information lied to you ".*
> 
> Deino---son get a life---. I thought you were inteligent---*.*




Oh, indeed I must apologise for that stupid mistake,  but as it seems he did not lie … he only said there is one painted aircraft and he showed this single image I later was allowed to post. He never said all would be painted … this is a hype that evolved during the discussion.

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## Yasser76

Deino said:


> Sorry for this, but as it seems he did not lie … he only said there is one painted aircraft and he showed this single image I later was allowed to post. He never said all would be painted … this is a hype that evolved during the discussion.



Yeah, I would not be very surprised if this was a one off job for a Squadron handover ceremony. With 36 planes that gives us two squadrons to update, No 15 already receiving some birds, my guess is one of the non ROSE ground attack sqds will convert to J-10C and this bird is just for the ceremony. PAF have a history of doing this.

With J-10C deliveries commencing and JF-17 Block III being manufactured for almost 2 years now I am hoping PAF are awaiting a mass conversion ceremony where we may see 2 J-10C units and 2 JF-17 Block III units all convert in one go! One can dream....

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## syed_yusuf

Can we please end this non productive debate on the paint job and get back to j10cp real info and discussion

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## Readerdefence

Hi just a wild guess that particular paint job can be for w video shoot of airforce day in September which offcourse not happening now due to flood calamity 
thank you

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## Deino

Falcon26 said:


> Please grow up & learn how to spell ‘intelligent.’




But I must defend him even if I'm often in conflict with him, my reply was indeed simply stupid since I didn't read properly and instantly felt offended. Sorry for this. 

@MastanKhan

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## Deino

Falcon26 said:


> He’s a complete clown, who moderators for whatever reason, have been given the right to insult and demean people left and right without any ramifications.




Agreed, but at least I made an error and so I need to admit it.

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## Raja Porus

Deino said:


> Agreed, but at least I made an error and so I need to admit it.


You are admitting your mistake! No doubt you aren't Pakistani

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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Corax

I've never liked the hunch back bulge of the J-10, makes it look squat and disproportioned, unlike the clean lines of the Viper. An outcome of having to adapt the AL-31 series engines for a single engine fighter design.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FuturePAF

Corax said:


> I've never liked the hunch back bulge of the J-10, makes it look squat and disproportioned, unlike the clean lines of the Viper. An outcome of having to adapt the AL-31 series engines for a single engine fighter design.


As their first modern fighter they had to start somewhere; in that way it reminds me of the SAAB Viggen. They got better and made the J-20, but like you said a design based on the consideration that they had to fit the Al-31 into the airframe.

Considering it partially ended the F-16 saga for the PAF, its a decent plane all things considered.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ghazi52

.,.,
*PAF LIONS*​

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## Brainsucker

Hi, is there any review from PAF pilots regarding J-10CP capability? I want to read it


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## Metal 0-1

Brainsucker said:


> Hi, is there any review from PAF pilots regarding J-10CP capability? I want to read it

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## messiach

Bleek said:


> Not saying you're lying, but how reliable is this information? Because some members have been talking about the WS-10B engine being used.


I dont visit regularly. What is your question about ? Lylka engines or AECC engines. If your question is with ref to AECC engines, the answer is yes, they r all based on Lylka engines upto all preturbine stages & chinese need russian permission.


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## messiach

rAli said:


> @messiach
> Ma'am. Aap kay muh mein ghee shakar!! Just to confirm, are you saying ToT for production of Al-31 in Pakistan from raw materials or higher depot level maintenance? If its the former that ought to be the best news in a long time. Thank you for sharing!


We are not manufacturing aero-engines. Russians have agreed with china to transfer Lylka based technology to foreign customers eg malaysia, pakistan. Engine manufacturing is a different level. Too late for us now. Miltary mind and technical mind operate at different levels. Personally i am not happy with J10 in our colors.

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## syed_yusuf

messiach said:


> We are not manufacturing aero-engines. Russians have agreed with china to transfer Lylka based technology to foreign customers eg malaysia, pakistan. Engine manufacturing is a different level. Too late for us now. Miltary mind and technical mind operate at different levels. Personally i am not happy with J10 in our colors.


Why not happy with j10 in paf?


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## White and Green with M/S

syed_yusuf said:


> Why not happy with j10 in paf?


She is happy


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## Deino

I really don't understand why are you still claiming such BS!?   



messiach said:


> In addition to local assembly of AESA, J10 comes with AL-31 ToT. We are looking towards a greater russian input in our NGFA program.



Really!?  Once you have been such a valuable contributor, credible, reliable and honest ... and why now this? 



Bleek said:


> Not saying you're lying, but how reliable is this information? Because some members have been talking about the WS-10B engine being used.



Yes, plain and simple, she is lying! 
And not "some members have been talking about the WS-10B engine being used", it is simply a fact. 
Anyone who denies that these are WS-10B engines and even more spreads such BS, these would be AL-31 is either plain stupid and stubborn or a troll who deliberately spreads lies!

This is a WS-10B, there's nothing to deny anymore.

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## TopGun786

Is that true guys?

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## iLION12345_1

Deino said:


> I really don't understand why are you still claiming such BS!?
> 
> 
> 
> Really!?  Once you have been such a valuable contributor, credible, reliable and honest ... and why now this?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, plain and simple, she is lying!
> And not "some members have been talking about the WS-10B engine being used", it is simply a fact.
> Anyone who denies that these are WS-10B engines and even more spreads such BS, these would be AL-31 is either plain stupid and stubborn or a troll who deliberately spreads lies!
> 
> This is a WS-10B, there's nothing to deny anymore.
> 
> View attachment 880528


Not even sure why such misinformation is being tolerated, regardless of the members background.

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## Deino

iLION12345_1 said:


> Not even sure why such misinformation is being tolerated, regardless of the members background.




In fact I have no understanding for this! Telling nothing since you know more but you aren't allowed to tell more is fine and no-one questions this, but deliberately spreading lies against all proven fact is simply dishonorable and mendacious.

By the way, here's a similar Tweet like the one mentioned above:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1571406733154689024
So finally, it can be revealed officially even if there won't be much fanfare this time due to the floods? Any more news about that one in green-grey? I heard those four delivered are again all grey only!


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## White privilege

Corax said:


> I've never liked the hunch back bulge of the J-10, makes it look squat and disproportioned, unlike the clean lines of the Viper. An outcome of having to adapt the AL-31 series engines for a single engine fighter design.


J-10's aerodynamics are different to F-16, and are similar to Eurofighter and Rafale. Such canard designs are inherently unstable, and require their flight computer to keep them stable.This instability is useful to attain enhanced maneuverability*, *this might also be the reason for the shape.

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## TNT

Seriously stop using the word omnirole. It sounds indian and stupid and is like copying indians. What is wrong in using multirole?

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## serenity

Cutting edge of capability? Surely this is too much hyperbole. It's a fine 4.5 gen lightweight fighter. Not close to cutting edge which would be what is being developed in countries like US and China to _replace_ 5th generation fighters or at least make them much more capable in combination with many other platforms to make that network harder.

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## Bilal.

serenity said:


> Cutting edge of capability? Surely this is too much hyperbole. It's a fine 4.5 gen lightweight fighter. Not close to cutting edge which would be what is being developed in countries like US and China to _replace_ 5th generation fighters or at least make them much more capable in combination with many other platforms to make that network harder.


From Pakistan’s context. Is it cutting edge compared to the generation of Rafale, EF, etc?

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## Zarvan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1571406733154689024


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## serenity

Bilal. said:


> From Pakistan’s context. Is it cutting edge compared to the generation of Rafale, EF, etc?



Okay. I read that statement as general rather than Pakistan specific.

As for regional being able to outgun any aircraft it is quite a confident or arrogant statement since Rafale in IAF certainly is considered in that region if China is not considered (since China obviously outguns J-10CP for obvious reasons). But Rafale in IAF service is the best Rafale available with French American AESA unit and Meteor missile. It has higher thrust to weight and overall thrust for higher power for electronics, it has more payload capability and has longer range on internal fuel only and longer range when taking equal volume external tanks.

I think it is quite puzzling for the statement to suggest J-10CP can outgun Rafale. It is a good budget fighter and decent lightweight 4.5 gen fighter but Rafale is a medium weight 4.5 gen fighter with all the advantages that come with that alone. It may have advantage in other respects since it is the absolute best of France while J-10CP is China's budget high volume single engine fighter. J-10CP I would imagine for PAF is less than 1/3 the price of IAF's Rafale.

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## Princeps Senatus

serenity said:


> Okay. I read that statement as general rather than Pakistan specific.
> 
> As for regional being able to outgun any aircraft it is quite a confident or arrogant statement since Rafale in IAF certainly is considered in that region if China is not considered (since China obviously outguns J-10CP for obvious reasons). But Rafale in IAF service is the best Rafale available with French American AESA unit and Meteor missile. It has higher thrust to weight and overall thrust for higher power for electronics, it has more payload capability and has longer range on internal fuel only and longer range when taking equal volume external tanks.
> 
> I think it is quite puzzling for the statement to suggest J-10CP can outgun Rafale. It is a good budget fighter and decent lightweight 4.5 gen fighter but Rafale is a medium weight 4.5 gen fighter with all the advantages that come with that alone. It may have advantage in other respects since it is the absolute best of France while J-10CP is China's budget high volume single engine fighter. J-10CP I would imagine for PAF is less than 1/3 the price of IAF's Rafale.


You seem to have several misconceptions. Rafale with its tiny radar isn't hard to outgun. Both J-10C and Rafale are Medium Fighters. Rafale has 2x low thrust engines while J-10C has 1x high thrust engine. J-10C is not a budget fighter, It's China's premier 4.5 gen fighter. 

I will give you one example; F-35 was sold to countries for around 80 mil USD per unit while Rafale and Eurofighter have been sold for as much as 200 mil USD. Does this mean F-35 is a budget fighter? Or that Rafale and Eurofighter are better than F-35? You should go look up what Economies of scale and Purchasing power parity is first.

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## Basel

DANGER-ZONE said:


> This is what *Ghufran* aka @timberwolf creator of the military-photoshops.blogspot.com made on my request back in 2012 (Here). This camouflage is called *Nato Standard Grey / Green Camouflage* and you'd notice it on most of the cold war era European aircrafts. I always wanted to see our J-10 & JF-17 dedicated attack sqn. in this camouflage.
> 
> Take a look at JFT in same color scheme.
> 
> View attachment 874030



Why this old camouflage in today's time, when we have better camouflage schemes available??


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## Deino

Basel said:


> Why this old camouflage in today's time, when we have better camouflage schemes available??




Heritage, tradition, sentimentality ... some sort of historic feeling!?

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## Basel

Deino said:


> Heritage, tradition, sentimentality ... some sort of historic feeling!?



Just found this on Facebook which show normal camouflage scheme like before for new batch.


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## serenity

Princeps Senatus said:


> You seem to have several misconceptions. Rafale with its tiny radar isn't hard to outgun. Both J-10C and Rafale are Medium Fighters. Rafale has 2x low thrust engines while J-10C has 1x high thrust engine. J-10C is not a budget fighter, It's China's premier 4.5 gen fighter.
> 
> I will give you one example; F-35 was sold to countries for around 80 mil USD per unit while Rafale and Eurofighter have been sold for as much as 200 mil USD. Does this mean F-35 is a budget fighter? Or that Rafale and Eurofighter are better than F-35? You should go look up what Economies of scale and Purchasing power parity is first.



The fact that F-35 have been sold for 80M while Typhoon and Rafale have been sold in the past for close to 200M just this alone without even concern for why and what are in those deal packages, already still does not prove your point that J-10 is NOT a budget fighter.

Because the concept of economies of scale and PPP exist and are applicable to situations, does NOT mean these concepts apply to the very specific J-10 manufacturing and price and so on. Yes J-10 is very high value fighter. It is easily (in my opinion) one of the if not the best fighter for around 40M acquisition cost.

However this does not mean it is NOT a budget. The only fighters in China known to be currently produced (not specifying variants) are J-10, J-15, J-16, J-20, and J-31/35. Out of this list, J-10 is easily the least capable OVERALL and definitely the cheapest by far. In fact J-16 is said to be nearly similar in price to J-20. That is a rumor but there we go. J-15 block 2s are with AESA and other improvements and definitely much more expensive than J-10 even ignoring navy requirements for certain concerns.

The fact that yes PLAAF buys a lot of J-10 and definitely 100% without doubt it has economies of scale advantage certainly much more so than Rafale still also in this case and this topic, does NOT prove it is better than Rafale much less talk about outgunning. That is too much assumption and arrogance to hold over a potential adversary. Leaders must never hold such attitudes for failure is certain but for fans like us, well who cares right. And with that, I shall say who cares to this topic. In my opinion J-10CP is not as capable overall as Rafale BUT it is also considerably more affordable and how it is used can be elevating its abilities. There are many optimal points to adjust with regards to a fighter acquisition.

With PAF's purchase, I think they made a good decision. To say with confidence that it can outgun Rafale though is Indian media/government level of ridiculousness. Certainly even if that is the case, it ought not be said so directly for many many reasons. If it isn't the case, then suggesting it is welcoming trouble. If it is unknown, then the ones making the claim so openly are simply fools.


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## Abid123

Princeps Senatus said:


> You seem to have several misconceptions. Rafale with its tiny radar isn't hard to outgun. Both J-10C and Rafale are Medium Fighters. Rafale has 2x low thrust engines while J-10C has 1x high thrust engine. J-10C is not a budget fighter, It's China's premier 4.5 gen fighter.
> 
> I will give you one example; F-35 was sold to countries for around 80 mil USD per unit while Rafale and Eurofighter have been sold for as much as 200 mil USD. Does this mean F-35 is a budget fighter? Or that Rafale and Eurofighter are better than F-35? You should go look up what Economies of scale and Purchasing power parity is first.


I stopped reading after he referred to the J-10C as "light weight fighter".

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## Bilal.

serenity said:


> The fact that F-35 have been sold for 80M while Typhoon and Rafale have been sold in the past for close to 200M just this alone without even concern for why and what are in those deal packages, already still does not prove your point that J-10 is NOT a budget fighter.
> 
> Because the concept of economies of scale and PPP exist and are applicable to situations, does NOT mean these concepts apply to the very specific J-10 manufacturing and price and so on. Yes J-10 is very high value fighter. It is easily (in my opinion) one of the if not the best fighter for around 40M acquisition cost.
> 
> However this does not mean it is NOT a budget. The only fighters in China known to be currently produced (not specifying variants) are J-10, J-15, J-16, J-20, and J-31/35. Out of this list, J-10 is easily the least capable OVERALL and definitely the cheapest by far. In fact J-16 is said to be nearly similar in price to J-20. That is a rumor but there we go. J-15 block 2s are with AESA and other improvements and definitely much more expensive than J-10 even ignoring navy requirements for certain concerns.
> 
> The fact that yes PLAAF buys a lot of J-10 and definitely 100% without doubt it has economies of scale advantage certainly much more so than Rafale still also in this case and this topic, does NOT prove it is better than Rafale much less talk about outgunning. That is too much assumption and arrogance to hold over a potential adversary. Leaders must never hold such attitudes for failure is certain but for fans like us, well who cares right. And with that, I shall say who cares to this topic. In my opinion J-10CP is not as capable overall as Rafale BUT it is also considerably more affordable and how it is used can be elevating its abilities. There are many optimal points to adjust with regards to a fighter acquisition.
> 
> With PAF's purchase, I think they made a good decision. To say with confidence that it can outgun Rafale though is Indian media/government level of ridiculousness. Certainly even if that is the case, it ought not be said so directly for many many reasons. If it isn't the case, then suggesting it is welcoming trouble. If it is unknown, then the ones making the claim so openly are simply fools.


PAF said the same for F-16 over MKIs when india was boasting SU-30MKI as f-22 of the East and mini AWACS. And many of us were skeptical of PAF’s confidence.

Turns out they knew exactly what they were talking about when the MKIs got owned.

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## Bratva

Bilal. said:


> PAF said the same for F-16 over MKIs when india was boasting SU-30MKI as f-22 of the East and mini AWACS. And many of us were skeptical of PAF’s confidence.
> 
> Turns out they knew exactly what they were talking about when the MKIs got owned.



2 factors owned MKI. Long range BVR missile on F-16 and Lack of long range BVR on MKI. The Unauthorized missile fired on MKI by W.C Siddiqui did expose the myth of MKI. But in doing so, IAF has bough long range sticks as well. So Next time, both will be firing Long range sticks at each other and the Best quality manufacturer will win.

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## Bilal.

Bratva said:


> 2 factors owned MKI. Long range BVR missile on F-16 and Lack of long range BVR on MKI. The Unauthorized missile fired on MKI by W.C Siddiqui did expose the myth of MKI. But in doing so, IAF has bough long range sticks as well. So Next time, both will be firing Long range sticks at each other and the Best quality manufacturer will win.


True, also the radar and it’s ECCM capability got exposed too.

IAF’s long sticks were on their way anyways (meteor and indigenous solutions), the timeline got compressed by a couple of years which all in all have been in consequential.

Also in the context of the discussion, if PAF is portraying same confidence vis a vis Rafale then this time I am a bit less skeptical.

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## siegecrossbow

Next batch test flying!

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## Deino

siegecrossbow said:


> View attachment 880571
> 
> 
> Next batch test flying!



Not only test flying but as per my information already in Pakistan


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1571558511729078278

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## MastanKhan

siegecrossbow said:


> View attachment 880571
> 
> 
> Next batch test flying!


Hi,

The J-10 CP's are already combat ready aircraft---unlike the JF-17 BLK3's which are going thru final integration process.

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## siegecrossbow

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The J-10 CP's are already combat ready aircraft---unlike the JF-17 BLK3's which are going thru final integration process.



There still needs to be quality assurance testing before the planes are delivered.

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## Talon

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The J-10 CP's are already combat ready aircraft---unlike the JF-17 BLK3's which are going thru final integration process.


Hi,

Son, he clearly meant test flying of that specific unit, that's not very intelligent of you..

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## Areesh

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1571554403148267520

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## Windjammer



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A batch of four more PAF J-10C 4.5+ Gen Multirole fighter aircraft landed at an airbase in Pakistan on 30th August, on delivery from Chengdu, in China. They are the serial numbers 22-107 to 22-110.
Earlier this year, 6x J-10C were delivered. The total aircraft delivered now stands at 10, against the initial order of 36 units.
These fighters are on the cutting-edge of modern aerial combat, able to outgun any aircraft in the region, and forming the tip-of-the-spear for the PAF, while retaining essential look-first, shoot-first capability.

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## siegecrossbow

Is this legit?

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## MIRauf

Abid123 said:


> I stopped reading after he referred to the J-10C as "light weight fighter".


For PLAAf it is, same as F-16 as Light Weight for USAF vs F-15 as heavy when first initially inducted. PLAAF still considers J-10 as light weight and will likely to continue as such as long as J-11s or different variants of it are in service.

Sure, one may / could argue that the F-7 / JF-17 are light and J-10 / F-16 are medium wight classified in the PAF service but the actual classification by the manufacturer still states 'light weight.'

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## MastanKhan

Talon said:


> Hi,
> 
> Son, he clearly meant test flying of that specific unit, that's not very intelligent of you..


Hi,

You must have been itching to get back at me for awhile. Poor you---.



siegecrossbow said:


> There still needs to be quality assurance testing before the planes are delivered.


Hi,

The aircraft was Paf's property when they took delivery in china. The quality assurance would have been done before taking delivery in china---.

Now it is the basic check up for after flight checks. That is what happened with the F16's when they first landed on Pak soil.

When you stated " Testing "---that alluded to somethin incomplete or not ready status---.

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## Bilal.



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## syed_yusuf

Bilal. said:


> View attachment 880883


Is this a real picture or PS?


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## Bilal.

syed_yusuf said:


> Is this a real picture or PS?


I tagged @Deino on the main J-10 thread to find out.


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## siegecrossbow

syed_yusuf said:


> Is this a real picture or PS?



PS.


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## Bilal.

siegecrossbow said:


> PS.


For sure?


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## siegecrossbow

Bilal. said:


> For sure?


Never seen AAMs mounted on the belly hard points. That said blue rounds are simulator rounds, but even then FOV for something like PL-10 will be blocked pretty substantially by an arrangement like this.

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## Bilal.

siegecrossbow said:


> Never seen AAMs mounted on the belly hard points. That said blue rounds are simulator rounds, but even then FOV for something like PL-10 will be blocked pretty substantially by an arrangement like this.


The source where it was posted called it an upgrade.


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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## maverick1977

I am hearing from reliable sources that more than 10-12 jets are coming. 6 already delivered, so total 12 in sq 15. And an additional 4 to 6 jets will be delievered. they will be coming in 1s and 2s till december. Can anyone verify this.

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## Deino

Bilal. said:


> The source where it was posted called it an upgrade.



Faked, 100% for sure

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## HRK

Deino said:


> Faked, 100% for sure


you just break my heart ....

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## Reichmarshal

Hearing news that the order has been increased from. 36 to 60

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## ghazi52

,..,
Pakistan purchasing 60 J-10C....

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## siegecrossbow

ghazi52 said:


> ,..,
> Pakistan purchasing 60 J-10C....
> 
> View attachment 881160



I’ve posted this image before. Do we know if it is legit?


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## MastanKhan

siegecrossbow said:


> Never seen AAMs mounted on the belly hard points. That said blue rounds are simulator rounds, but even then FOV for something like PL-10 will be blocked pretty substantially by an arrangement like this.


Hi,

How about the BVR missiles on the belly of the F14 iranian Tomcats---


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## siegecrossbow

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> How about the BVR missiles on the belly of the F14 iranian Tomcats---



PL-10 is not BVR missile.

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## Deino

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> How about the BVR missiles on the belly of the F14 iranian Tomcats---





siegecrossbow said:


> Never seen AAMs mounted on the belly hard points. That said blue rounds are simulator rounds, but even then FOV for something like PL-10 will be blocked pretty substantially by an arrangement like this.



Point is, we have seen countless similar faked images, always showing more AAMs - like the PL-15 on the outer wing-stations - and AAMs on the intake pylons. Most of them were so badly faked, that there is not even a doubt and we have never seen a real one.

So, in essence anyone who claims it to be real must either prove it or at least give an explanation. Simply stating "it is an update" is a lame argument.

Exactly like claiming PAF J-10CE's are using AL-31FN engines, JF-17 Block 3 has a larger wing with "totally different" aspect ratio and different fuselage or "the cockpit sidewalls are green and therefore carry fuel"!

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## syed_yusuf

caring PL-10E (IIR Missile) under the belly should be ok, remember PL-10E is also lock after shoot enabled. even PL15 or PL12 could be mounted under the belly. The question is was this picture legit - remember J10C has 2 additional under the belly HP beside these two under the air-intake 

1 - This shows the versatility of the load carried by the fighter aircraft
2 - this also shows the capability of the outer most under the wing HP to carry much more heavier missile
3 - this also proves the usefulness of the under the belly air intake HP to carry other weapons

that is why the million dollar question is was this picture legit?


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## siegecrossbow

syed_yusuf said:


> caring PL-10E (IIR Missile) under the belly should be ok, remember PL-10E is also lock after shoot enabled. even PL15 or PL12 could be mounted under the belly. The question is was this picture legit - remember J10C has 2 additional under the belly HP beside these two under the air-intake
> 
> 1 - This shows the versatility of the load carried by the fighter aircraft
> 2 - this also shows the capability of the outer most under the wing HP to carry much more heavier missile
> 3 - this also proves the usefulness of the under the belly air intake HP to carry other weapons
> 
> that is why the million dollar question is was this picture legit?



It needs to slide off the launch rail though, not dropped. The engine will choke if it gets fired from the belly position.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

For those who have not seen this---Iranian F14 with modified Hawk missile









Iran Equipped Its F-14s With Modified Hawk SAMs That Had Bombs Attached To Their Noses


Iran, reeling from embargoes, was in desperate need of additional weaponry for its Tomcats during the brutal Iran-Iraq War in the 1980s.




www.thedrive.com














Former IRIAF F-14 pilot explains how he was able to score 16 aerial kills in the Tomcat (eight with the AIM-54 Phoenix missile, two with the M61A Vulcan gun, and one with the MIM-23 Hawk missile) - The Aviation Geek Club


Former IRIAF F-14 pilot explains how he was able to score 16 aerial kills in the Tomcat (eight with the AIM-54 Phoenix missile, two with the M61A Vulcan gun, and one with the MIM-23 Hawk missile)




theaviationgeekclub.com






_“I had eight aerial kills with the Phoenix missile, two kills with the Vulcan M61A gun, and one kill with the MIM-23 Hawk missile at what we ended up using on our fleet of F-14 jets due to severe missile shortages in late stages of the conflict,” Col. (rtd) Fereydoun A. Mazandarani, former IRIAF F-14 Tomcat Pilot._​

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## White privilege

Reichmarshal said:


> Hearing news that the order has been increased from. 36 to 60





ghazi52 said:


> ,..,
> Pakistan purchasing 60 J-10C....
> 
> View attachment 881160


60 means 4 squadrons, 15 birds each.
If it comes to fruition, then which other base would house the additional birds?? All 60 can't be stuffed at Kamra...I believe Rajanpur is ideally placed, dead center of Pakistan, to be made an operational base, and house J-10s.


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## Abid123

White privilege said:


> 60 means 4 squadrons, 15 birds each.
> If it comes to fruition, then which other base would house the additional birds?? All 60 can't be stuffed at Kamra...I believe Rajanpur is ideally placed, dead center of Pakistan, to be made an operational base, and house J-10s.


Are there not 18 fighters in a PAF squadron?


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## White privilege

Abid123 said:


> Are there not 18 fighters in a PAF squadron?


May be 3 squadrons with 20 birds each is also possible, if the total remains 60. But it is likely that the total would also go up.

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## Deino

syed_yusuf said:


> ,,, even PL15 or PL12 could be mounted under the belly. ,,,?




In fact plain and simple; NO!
No PL12 or PL15 could be carried under the belly.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For those who have not seen this---Iranian F14 with modified Hawk missile




But that‘s totally irrelevant. These Hawks were just carried on the same wing pylons like previously the AIM-7/9 and -54! As such nothing new.

In contrast we have so far never seen an AAM on these intake pylons and at least all Chinese sources I rate credible say, it simply is not rated for AAMs.

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## ghazi52

Simply a Beauty......

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## Abid123

siegecrossbow said:


> Is this legit?
> 
> View attachment 880843


Can you read Urdu?😝😁


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## siegecrossbow

Abid123 said:


> Can you read Urdu?😝😁



Nope. But it is making rounds in China.


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## Gripen9

Abid123 said:


> Are there not 18 fighters in a PAF squadron?


Yes. Ideally 18 airframes per sqn. But sometimes there are variances. No 2 sqn was expanded to have more aircraft due to its expanded area of ops incl. maritime duties.

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## syed_yusuf

siegecrossbow said:


> It needs to slide off the launch rail though, not dropped. The engine will choke if it gets fired from the belly position.


Not true. This is an assumption but not a valid reason. Have you seen pl10 on j20 ?



Deino said:


> In fact plain and simple; NO!
> No PL12 or PL15 could be carried under the belly.



Pl12 and pl15 was said as an example .. they could be carried under the belly. 

We just ascertaining the possibility of pl10 on air intake HP


----------



## siegecrossbow

syed_yusuf said:


> Not true. This is an assumption but not a valid reason. Have you seen pl10 on j20 ?
> 
> 
> 
> Pl12 and pl15 was said as an example .. they could be carried under the belly.
> 
> We just ascertaining the possibility of pl10 on air intake HP



PL-10 on J-20 slides off the rail.






You can mount BVR missiles on the belly hardpoints from a purely technical point of view. However, the process requires rewriting the cables and is very time consuming, definitely not worth the effort.

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## MastanKhan

White privilege said:


> May be 3 squadrons with 20 birds each is also possible, if the total remains 60. But it is likely that the total would also go up.



Hi,

6 for CCC school.

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## Deino

syed_yusuf said:


> ….
> Pl12 and pl15 was said as an example .. they could be carried under the belly.
> …




No, they could not - at least we have not seen a single image nor a hint it could.

We have seen no AAM on any of the 5 belly stations since the prototype testing phase and now you claim it could, without any hint?

So again, it‘s your duty to explain why it should be able.


----------



## White privilege

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> 6 for CCC school.





Abid123 said:


> Are there not 18 fighters in a PAF squadron?


Yes, now the math checks out. 3 squadrons comprising of 18 birds each, and 6 for CCS/ACE.

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## Bossman

White privilege said:


> 60 means 4 squadrons, 15 birds each.
> If it comes to fruition, then which other base would house the additional birds?? All 60 can't be stuffed at Kamra...I believe Rajanpur is ideally placed, dead center of Pakistan, to be made an operational base, and house J-10s.


Except for housing and maintenance hangers, Rajanpur has all the infrastructure for an operational base including underground command and control center.

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## WaqarAhmed161247

Bossman said:


> Except for housing and maintenance hangers, Rajanpur has all the infrastructure for an operational base including underground command and control center.


Then why this base is nonoperational and kept it as obsolete?


----------



## syed_yusuf

Deino said:


> No, they could not - at least we have not seen a single image nor a hint it could.
> 
> We have seen no AAM on any of the 5 belly stations since the prototype testing phase and now you claim it could, without any hint?
> 
> So again, it‘s your duty to explain why it should be able.


Seriously man, you need to take chill pill.

i am not nawaz sharif to provide proof. 

I am just saying this is possible, there is not a reason to say not happening, Is it happening? will only be proven once it happens and there is a picture proof.


----------



## Deino

syed_yusuf said:


> Seriously man, you need to take chill pill.
> 
> i am not nawaz sharif to provide proof.
> 
> I am just saying this is possible, there is not a reason to say not happening, Is it happening? will only be proven once it happens and there is a picture proof.




No, in case you accept taht no-one takes you seriously, you need to argue! I know, I cannot force you to explain but your claim is ridiculous: There are 5 belly stations - two under the intake, two ion the rear and the centreline station - and on NONE we have seen an AAM so far, the rear-most ones are anyway rarely used, the front ones cannot hold AAMs due to the reasons already given so often and since they conflict with the fins especially of the PL-12/-12 and the centreline is only for a fuel tank.

So why and how on earth could there be an AAM? ... but ok, insist on this BS and it's fine. It is not my reputation under discussion.


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## Mig hunter

WaqarAhmed161247 said:


> Then why this base is nonoperational and kept it as obsolete?


Because it's in middle of nowhere. Req water, power, gas, security, basic emanitites and not to mention on border of Balochistan with looming threat of terrorists.


----------



## White privilege

Mig hunter said:


> Because it's in middle of nowhere. Req water, power, gas, security, basic emanitites and not to mention on border of Balochistan with looming threat of terrorists.


Oh come on, the base houses a large radar, probably the TPS-77, so clearly it is not a remote outpost, to be used sparingly. 
That being said, given that Rajanpur would require a upgrade, it would be more economical to make room at Rafiqui for J-10s.

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## Bossman

WaqarAhmed161247 said:


> Then why this base is nonoperational and kept it as obsolete?


There are many bases like these. They are only made operational during a war type situation. Others include Nawabshah, Multan, Sukkur, Faisalabad. They are not the sparse forward air bases of the old days but have all the bells and whistles including radars and underground bunkers with protection against NBC. It is expensive to run an operational airbase.



Mig hunter said:


> Because it's in middle of nowhere. Req water, power, gas, security, basic emanitites and not to mention on border of Balochistan with looming threat of terrorists.


Water is not an issue, it is right next to a canal. In fact the canal also serves as a barrier to the west.

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## MastanKhan

syed_yusuf said:


> Not true. This is an assumption but not a valid reason. Have you seen pl10 on j20 ?
> 
> 
> 
> Pl12 and pl15 was said as an example .. they could be carried under the belly.
> 
> We just ascertaining the possibility of pl10 on air intake HP


Hi,

Most don't understand---there is a reason Paf went for the J-10 C's---. The first priority is that of assimilation of the current aircraft---the current technology and current weapons---and that is the focus of training for the current pilots and techs.

While they are doing that---the second priority running in parallel to the first priority are certain changes that would be coming in the future J-10C's regarding certain weapons and weapon load out as well the electronics---.

Just look at the newer F15 eagle---just check out the missile loadout on that aircraft. New missile racks will do wonders.









The F-15X was claimed to be able to carry up to 22 air-to-air missiles, but the pictures I've seen only show the F-15X carrying only abou...


Answer (1 of 10): So called ‘AMBER’ (Advanced Missile And Bomb Ejector Racks) are in fact BRU-61 SMER (Smart Multiple Ejector Racks) with 1760 databus and power for J-weapons and specifically the GBU-39 and -53. AIM-120 cannot be deployed from these as the inner missile midwings will collide wit...




www.quora.com

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## PakFactor

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Most don't understand---there is a reason Paf went for the J-10 C's---. The first priority is that of assimilation of the current aircraft---the current technology and current weapons---and that is the focus of training for the current pilots and techs.
> 
> While they are doing that---the second priority running in parallel to the first priority are certain changes that would be coming in the future J-10C's regarding certain weapons and weapon load out as well the electronics---.
> 
> Just look at the newer F15 eagle---just check out the missile loadout on that aircraft. New missile racks will do wonders.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The F-15X was claimed to be able to carry up to 22 air-to-air missiles, but the pictures I've seen only show the F-15X carrying only abou...
> 
> 
> Answer (1 of 10): So called ‘AMBER’ (Advanced Missile And Bomb Ejector Racks) are in fact BRU-61 SMER (Smart Multiple Ejector Racks) with 1760 databus and power for J-weapons and specifically the GBU-39 and -53. AIM-120 cannot be deployed from these as the inner missile midwings will collide wit...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.quora.com



The F-15 is a monster on a whole different level. Give a competent pilot that plane alone, and he will wreck any air force.


----------



## syed_yusuf

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Most don't understand---there is a reason Paf went for the J-10 C's---. The first priority is that of assimilation of the current aircraft---the current technology and current weapons---and that is the focus of training for the current pilots and techs.
> 
> While they are doing that---the second priority running in parallel to the first priority are certain changes that would be coming in the future J-10C's regarding certain weapons and weapon load out as well the electronics---.
> 
> Just look at the newer F15 eagle---just check out the missile loadout on that aircraft. New missile racks will do wonders.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The F-15X was claimed to be able to carry up to 22 air-to-air missiles, but the pictures I've seen only show the F-15X carrying only abou...
> 
> 
> Answer (1 of 10): So called ‘AMBER’ (Advanced Missile And Bomb Ejector Racks) are in fact BRU-61 SMER (Smart Multiple Ejector Racks) with 1760 databus and power for J-weapons and specifically the GBU-39 and -53. AIM-120 cannot be deployed from these as the inner missile midwings will collide wit...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.quora.com


Exactly



Deino said:


> No, in case you accept taht no-one takes you seriously, you need to argue! I know, I cannot force you to explain but your claim is ridiculous: There are 5 belly stations - two under the intake, two ion the rear and the centreline station - and on NONE we have seen an AAM so far, the rear-most ones are anyway rarely used, the front ones cannot hold AAMs due to the reasons already given so often and since they conflict with the fins especially of the PL-12/-12 and the centreline is only for a fuel tank.
> 
> So why and how on earth could there be an AAM? ... but ok, insist on this BS and it's fine. It is not my reputation under discussion.


What ever bro...

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## MastanKhan

PakFactor said:


> The F-15 is a monster on a whole different level. Give a competent pilot that plane alone, and he will wreck any air force.


Hi,

Modern 4.5 gen aircraft are extremely potent---rather deadly---.

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## Affan-khan

WaqarAhmed161247 said:


> Then why this base is nonoperational and kept it as obsolete?


two runways and non operational ... interesting

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## WaqarAhmed161247

Affan-khan said:


> two runways and non operational ... interesting


with all infrastructure in place and available for use?may be in the near future it would be turned into a regular operational base as per requirements of the time to accommodate and nest new birds .

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## Irfan Baloch

FuturePAF said:


> Considering it partially ended the F-16 saga for the PAF, its a decent plane all things considered.


I am not so sure if F-16 saga is over yet. whether or not we can get any more of them is a separate debate.
J10 is indeed a tentative first step towards it.
how well it really and honestly covers for everything F1-6 offers (and some) depends on what its users say without being politically correct or pressured to say the "right" and "halal" thing only. and that will take its time.



Corax said:


> I've never liked the hunch back bulge of the J-10, makes it look squat and disproportioned, unlike the clean lines of the Viper. An outcome of having to adapt the AL-31 series engines for a single engine fighter design.


for me J-20 is that shoe box without proportions , tiny wings and a showbox fuselage with tiny canards and disproportionate wings. despite all this that thing flies which is something. 
the bulge on the J10 doesnt bother me.
which brings me to the conclusion that the beauty (or lack of it ) is in the eye of the beholder.

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## WaqarAhmed161247

Irfan Baloch said:


> I am not so sure if F-16 saga is over yet. whether or not we can get any more of them is a separate debate.
> J10 is indeed a tentative first step towards it.
> how well it really and honestly covers for everything F1-6 offers (and some) depends on what its users say without being politically correct or pressured to say the "right" and "halal" thing only. and that will take its time.
> 
> 
> for me J-20 is that shoe box without proportions , tiny wings and a showbox fuselage with tiny canards and disproportionate wings. despite all this that thing flies which is something.
> the bulge on the J10 doesnt bother me.
> which brings me to the conclusion that the beauty (or lack of it ) is in the eye of the beholder.


Other than that whether F-16s are offered to pakistan or not (used or new) About 13 Gunships are ready and waiting to be shipped to pakistan since long time resting in store house and that should be one of our priorities to manage this new love affair with US to get them out of her stomach where they are actually rotting with the every passing day.my humble opinion.


----------



## Bossman

Affan-khan said:


> two runways and non operational ... interesting


I think it is the term “operational”, which is confusing the folks. Not being operational does not mean that the bases is not usable but rather that no squadrons are permanently based there.


----------



## Mig hunter

White privilege said:


> Oh come on, the base houses a large radar, probably the TPS-77, so clearly it is not a remote outpost, to be used sparingly.
> That being said, given that Rajanpur would require a upgrade, it would be more economical to make room at Rafiqui for J-10s.


As far as my knowledge is concerned and being from that area, I have said what I know..


----------



## PakFactor

Irfan Baloch said:


> I am not so sure if F-16 saga is over yet. whether or not we can get any more of them is a separate debate.
> J10 is indeed a tentative first step towards it.
> how well it really and honestly covers for everything F1-6 offers (and some) depends on what its users say without being politically correct or pressured to say the "right" and "halal" thing only. and that will take its time.
> 
> 
> for me J-20 is that shoe box without proportions , tiny wings and a showbox fuselage with tiny canards and disproportionate wings. despite all this that thing flies which is something.
> the bulge on the J10 doesnt bother me.
> which brings me to the conclusion that the beauty (or lack of it ) is in the eye of the beholder.



I’m getting the feeling from your post that J-20 isn’t what’s it’s meant to be?

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## Irfan Baloch

PakFactor said:


> I’m getting the feeling from your post that J-20 isn’t what’s it’s meant to be?


who knows.
my aviation knowledge is less than the news caster on ARY or Geo News. my commentary is based purely on cosmetics and simple understanding of geometrical aesthetics. it might be a Star Trek grade jet underneath its shell but its just a speculation and thats not what I am talking about anyway.

J10 on the other hand, displays the capability through its outlook and its flight display. externally , everything about it from its nose cone to the back burner of its jet suggests good craftsmanship, agility and performance. (I am of the school which says that if it looks good it will fly good).

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## White privilege

Gripen9 said:


> Yes. Ideally 18 airframes per sqn. But sometimes there are variances. No 2 sqn was expanded to have more aircraft due to its expanded area of ops incl. maritime duties.


If _Minhasians _are solely responsible for seaward ops, what do the _Phoenixs _do??


----------



## Gripen9

White privilege said:


> If _Minhasians _are solely responsible for seaward ops, what do the _Phoenixs _do??


No 28 from what I recall are based @ Samungli. They are a multi role sqn.


----------



## Abdul Majid Saleem

https://satellites.pro/Pakistan_map#25.244510,68.033840,19

Can any one tell me, what is parked alongwith J-10C


----------



## siegecrossbow

Abdul Majid Saleem said:


> https://satellites.pro/Pakistan_map#25.244510,68.033840,19
> 
> Can any one tell me, what is parked alongwith J-10C



Flankers. Must be during Shaheen exercise?


----------



## CLUMSY

God i would not mind being an american slave if we get f16 blk70s in exchange /s


----------



## Zarvan

Bratva said:


> 2 factors owned MKI. Long range BVR missile on F-16 and Lack of long range BVR on MKI. The Unauthorized missile fired on MKI by W.C Siddiqui did expose the myth of MKI. But in doing so, IAF has bough long range sticks as well. So Next time, both will be firing Long range sticks at each other and the Best quality manufacturer will win.


Thing is AWACS, EW Planes will play bigger role as compared to BVR and fighter jets.


----------



## MastanKhan

Irfan Baloch said:


> I am not so sure if F-16 saga is over yet. whether or not we can get any more of them is a separate debate.
> J10 is indeed a tentative first step towards it.
> how well it really and honestly covers for everything F1-6 offers (and some) depends on what its users say without being politically correct or pressured to say the "right" and "halal" thing only. and that will take its time.
> 
> 
> for me J-20 is that shoe box without proportions , tiny wings and a showbox fuselage with tiny canards and disproportionate wings. despite all this that thing flies which is something.
> the bulge on the J10 doesnt bother me.
> which brings me to the conclusion that the beauty (or lack of it ) is in the eye of the beholder.


Hi,

The F-16 saga should not be over for a decade at the minimum. What is it---a close to 100 4th gen aircraft---about 300 frontline pilots and numerous support and technical staff trained for it---countless weapons---.

You just don't dispose dispose of your functional equipment just like that.


PakFactor said:


> The F-15 is a monster on a whole different level. Give a competent pilot that plane alone, and he will wreck any air force.



Hi,

The F15 is a missile truck now that would compliment the F35's and F22's.

Otherwise---with this much load---it would not be a too difficult target for a modern 4.5 gen aircraft.

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## syed_yusuf

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The F-16 saga should not be over for a decade at the minimum. What is it---a close to 100 4th gen aircraft---about 300 frontline pilots and numerous support and technical staff trained for it---countless weapons---.
> 
> You just don't dispose dispose of your functional equipment just like that.
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The F15 is a missile truck now that would compliment the F35's and F22's.
> 
> Otherwise---with this much load---it would not be a too difficult target for a modern 4.5 gen aircraft.


75 f16 not 100


----------



## PakFactor

syed_yusuf said:


> 75 f16 not 100



He's counting the 36 units of J-10C as part of the 4th Gen that will be inducted down the road.

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## MastanKhan

syed_yusuf said:


> 75 f16 not 100


Hi,

See how easy is it to get the truth out---so easy---.

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## White privilege

So, how would PAF manage training of younger pilots w/o a dual seater?? I can understand PAF seeking to go the JF-17 route , and rely more on simulators, but this is a far more advanced warbird...


----------



## siegecrossbow

White privilege said:


> So, how would PAF manage training of younger pilots w/o a dual seater?? I can understand PAF seeking to go the JF-17 route , and rely more on simulators, but this is a far more advanced warbird...



Ideally you need L-15, but I guess JF-17 twin seater or F-16 twin seater could suffice. Going from K-8 directly to J-10C will be challenging.


----------



## White privilege

siegecrossbow said:


> Ideally you need L-15, but I guess JF-17 twin seater or F-16 twin seater could suffice. Going from K-8 directly to J-10C will be challenging.


Probably won't happen. PAF is opposed to the idea of a LIFT. The initial batch has already been trained in China, and the ones to qualify in the near future would most likely be experienced Viper jocks, much like how we built up the Thunder jock pool. May be after some time, when fleet size inflates, and specialized two seater versions are required, it could be procured. And serve as trainer as well...

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## Irfan Baloch

White privilege said:


> So, how would PAF manage training of younger pilots w/o a dual seater?? I can understand PAF seeking to go the JF-17 route , and rely more on simulators, but this is a far more advanced warbird...


they will take their time to realize . take the JF17B timeline as a guide. they (PAF leadership) suffer from the same ailment which afflicts all Pakistanis when they suffer power and that ailment is ego, self falicio and dismissal of logic .what PAF has achieved so far and will achieve in future is purely due to Divine intervention.

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## Mig hunter

CLUMSY said:


> God i would not mind being an american slave if we get f16 blk70s in exchange /s


You know slaves never have a choice. So what's the point of having a fancy toy when you can't play with it.

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## GriffinsRule

Irfan Baloch said:


> they will take their time to realize . take the JF17B timeline as a guide. they (PAF leadership) suffer from the same ailment which afflicts all Pakistanis when they suffer power and that ailment is ego, self falicio and dismissal of logic .what PAF has achieved so far and will achieve in future is purely due to Divine intervention.


If that's the case, how come the disproportionate number of F-16B/D in the fleet?

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## MastanKhan

White privilege said:


> So, how would PAF manage training of younger pilots w/o a dual seater?? I can understand PAF seeking to go the JF-17 route , and rely more on simulators, but this is a far more advanced warbird...


Hi,

Looks like that top tier pilots would transition to the J10's as it is done in the USAF. So---that is not a big deal.

Why would you want to put your "younger" pilots into your tier 1 machine.

Nowhere in the world air forces younger pilots are put into tier 1 machines---. They all have to go thru Tiers 4, 3 ,2---and then maybe 1.

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## Edevelop

siegecrossbow said:


> Ideally you need L-15, but I guess JF-17 twin seater or F-16 twin seater could suffice. Going from K-8 directly to J-10C will be challenging.



L-15 or Hürjet makes sense.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The PAF had a LIFT requirement back in 2017-2018. For now, the PAF is running the LIFT role through the JF-17B, but the plan originally was to acquire a dedicated platform like the L-15. However, the PAF likely shelved the LIFT to dedicate resources toward the new fighter (i.e., J-10CE). It's possible that once the J-10CE program matures, the PAF will revisit the LIFT.

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## Signalian

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The PAF had a LIFT requirement back in 2017-2018. For now, the PAF is running the LIFT role through the JF-17B, but the plan originally was to acquire a dedicated platform like the L-15. However, the PAF likely shelved the LIFT to dedicate resources toward the new fighter (i.e., J-10CE). It's possible that once the J-10CE program matures, the PAF will revisit the LIFT.


JF-17B should be able to fulfill the task quite well in the future too.

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## sparten

Signalian said:


> JF-17B should be able to fulfill the task quite well in the future too.


Not if most of the airframes get dedicated to Strike and EW role.


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## Signalian

sparten said:


> Not if most of the airframes get dedicated to Strike and EW role.


UCAV


----------



## CSAW

*DRAGON FROM THE EAST
J-10CP -- A Premium Asset & as Force multiplier indeed*

 "_J-10Cs – also referred to as the Firebird or Vigorous Dragon The Canard Delta Single engine Medium Weight category J-10CE – are now the PAF’s most advanced platform, Generation 4.5 fighters considered a counter to India’s Dassault Rafale. It will join other PAF platforms like the JF-17 Block 3 (another China-origin jet) and F-16.

Some of the fighter’s most notable features are the presence of the powerful AESA radar, reduced radar cross-section, and availability of the highly long-ranged AESA-guided PL-15 air-to-air missile. J-10CE is the Pakistan Air Force’s first IRST-equipped aircraft. These capabilities mean J-10C can take on any modern fighter jet in VWR HOBS Knife Fight or getting upper hand in Long Shot capability for PAF in a "Informatised Network centric" environment with Thunders and ZDK-03. J-10 has already performed well in its encounters against Flankers in China, Gripen-C in Thailand and credubly well in Shaheen Exercises in Pakistan.

For enhanced maneuverability, the J-10 has a wide delta wing and two canards behind the cockpit. The J-10C variant is believed to be powered by the locally produced WS-10 Taihang engine. 

*PAFs **endeavor*_* to turn J-10CP Potential into a Maritime Strike Fighter with Long range Anti Ship Weapons means the initial quantities of 25 would easily be surpassed to a 60 - 90 figure in total which PAF always keeps on focus when it plans for a Platform induction. PAF would be certain to obtain all the advancements which Chinese employ over next decade in thier J-10Cs since the fighter jet is in production run in china, "*

--------------------------------------------------------------









https://twitter.com/zspcl/status/1566266649216425986









__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1571468835940716545

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1571461303763406850

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1573986792080113664






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1568068673369161729

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1566396981152567298

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1568441061894234112


https://twitter.com/zspcl/status/1566370819235790848

















'Dragon From The East' - Pakistan Gets 2nd Batch Of 'Rafale Challenger' J-10C Fighters From China - Local Media


Pakistan has received the 2nd batch of J-10C fighters, which it procured from its all-weather ally China, the country's local media outlets reported.




eurasiantimes.com

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## RAMPAGE

CSAW said:


> https://twitter.com/zspcl/status/1566266649216425986
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 883147
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1571468835940716545
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1571461303763406850
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1573986792080113664
> View attachment 883148
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1568068673369161729
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1566396981152567298
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1568441061894234112
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/zspcl/status/1566370819235790848
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 883145
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 883143


@Deino Do these have a Chinese engine?


----------



## syed_yusuf

May be I am wrong but for what I know to be a 4.5 gen fighter it should have supercruise capability. If so can j10c do supercruise?


----------



## Princeps Senatus



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## Ghessan

Princeps Senatus said:


> View attachment 883201



what is the serial number?


----------



## Princeps Senatus

Ghessan said:


> what is the serial number?


Hard to tell, at first I was seeing 119 now it looks like 112.


----------



## Ghessan

Princeps Senatus said:


> Hard to tell, at first I was seeing 119 now it looks like 112.


they used to leak photo of the very first aircraft of the batch by that logic can be 113

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## Deino

RAMPAGE said:


> @Deino Do these have a Chinese engine?




Yes !

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## Deino

Princeps Senatus said:


> Hard to tell, at first I was seeing 119 now it looks like 112.




Indeed ... looks like 119, but due to the blur it could also be 113, 114, 115, 116 or 118!

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## Falcon26

syed_yusuf said:


> May be I am wrong but for what I know to be a 4.5 gen fighter it should have supercruise capability. If so can j10c do supercruise?



There’s no 4.5 generation fighter than can supercruise. In fact, the only planes that can do so without afterburner is the F-22. Glad to be corrected.

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## Princeps Senatus

Falcon26 said:


> There’s no 4.5 generation fighter than can supercruise. In fact, the only planes that can do so without afterburner is the F-22. Glad to be corrected.


This. F-22 is the only one that can do meaningful supercruise. For all the rest it's just a gimmick.

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## syed_yusuf

Falcon26 said:


> There’s no 4.5 generation fighter than can supercruise. In fact, the only planes that can do so without afterburner is the F-22. Glad to be corrected.


Rafale and EF2000 can

are they not 4.5 Gen?


----------



## Falcon26

syed_yusuf said:


> Rafale and EF2000 can
> 
> are they not 4.5 Gen?



No they can’t without an afterburner.

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## MajesticPug

Falcon26 said:


> No they can’t without an afterburner.



Only F22 has demonstrated supersonic cruising ability. I heard J20 has recently achieved this milestone with the new engines but not sure. Rafale, J10C are not 5th-generation and they are not subject to this supercruising milepost test. However, F35 was designed as a 5th-gen and how come it can't supercruise? Should it be marketed as a 5th-gen? Perhaps the US military no longer considers supercruising a critical ability and distinguishing criteria for 5th-gen?

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## MastanKhan

MajesticPug said:


> Only F22 has demonstrated supersonic cruising ability. I heard J20 has recently achieved this milestone with the new engines but not sure. Rafale, J10C are not 5th-generation and they are not subject to this supercruising milepost test. However, F35 was designed as a 5th-gen and how come it can't supercruise? Should it be marketed as a 5th-gen? Perhaps the US military no longer considers supercruising a critical ability and distinguishing criteria for 5th-gen?


Hi,

Super cruise is more of a " i got it thing ". Most f the aircraft that can go super cruise---it is for a very short time.


----------



## GriffinsRule

I bet any fighter can "super cruise" in a clean config with less than half internal fuel and flying nose down letting gravity do it's thing. But as mentioned only F-22 has the actual capability to do so in any meaningful way in a course of an a-a mission

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## TaimiKhan

Deino said:


> Indeed ... looks like 119, but due to the blur it could also be 113, 114, 115, 116 or 118!
> 
> View attachment 883224



Deino, which engine is this ?? Seems different from the ones delivered or its same engine ??


----------



## siegecrossbow

TaimiKhan said:


> Deino, which engine is this ?? Seems different from the ones delivered or its same engine ??



WS-10.


----------



## TaimiKhan

siegecrossbow said:


> WS-10.



And the earlier provided ones have the russian powerplant ???


----------



## siegecrossbow

TaimiKhan said:


> And the earlier provided ones have the russian powerplant ???



Nope, all WS-10.


----------



## Abramar

syed_yusuf said:


> Rafale and EF2000 can
> 
> are they not 4.5 Gen?


Not until you put any kind of external payloads on them. Making their supercruise worthless.


----------



## TaimiKhan

siegecrossbow said:


> Nope, all WS-10.



Then why external differences in the nozzle shapes ??


----------



## Deino

TaimiKhan said:


> And the earlier provided ones have the russian powerplant ???




No, all use WS-10B engines



TaimiKhan said:


> Then why external differences in the nozzle shapes ??



SInce it is a convergent/divergent nozzle and on this lates image it is in closed position, while usually on the ground it is open.

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## Talon

White privilege said:


> Yes, now the math checks out. 3 squadrons comprising of 18 birds each, and 6 for CCS/ACE.


ACE is different from CCS ..


----------



## White privilege

Talon said:


> ACE is different from CCS ..


Is it one of the five schools under ACE now ?? However if there are no dedicated aircraft under other four schools, then CCS aircraft would become ACE aircraft by default...


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Pakistan’s new J-10 squadron stretches legs in major defence exercise​Operational air defence exercise features drones, surface-air missiles





The Chinese-built omnirole fighters J-10C Dragons were inducted in the PAF earlier this year. PHOTO: PAF HANDOUT IMAGE.
*Pakistan Air Force (PAF) just concluded an air defence exercise in the country focusing on the eastern defence theater, featuring some of the latest armaments recently inducted into the force.*
According to a statement and other media released by Pakistan Air Force’s media wing the other day, Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu on Wednesday oversaw the exercise.
The exercise “focused on fostering synergy while considering future warfare challenges,” as it practiced counter-air operations to validate contemporary employment concepts.

The exercise also focused on integrating the air force and army’s air defence assets while training PAF’s operational crew to develop, practice and validate tactics.
While monitoring the exercise from the Command Operations Center, the air chief assessed the integration and synergistic employment of offensive and defensive forces in conjunction with the army’s air defence to practice contemporary employment concepts under near-realistic threat scenarios.
Among the operational assets deployed were the full range of fighter aircraft, including the newly-inducted squadron of Chinese-built omnirole fighters J-10C. Other assets included static and mobile air defence elements, force multipliers and ground and aerial battle management centers, including the airborne early warning radars Saab.
While the J-10s have been included in a host of training and exercises since their induction in spring, this was the first major domestic multi-force exercise it had participated in.





This combination image released by PAF about the training shows the J-10 along with the co-developed JF-17. PHOTO: PAF HANDOUT IMAGE

Earlier, the air chief visited an operational base to assess the integration of the newly acquired unmanned aerial systems (UAS) in the PAF’s operational fleet and defence array as part of the exercise.
He highlighted the importance of unmanned aerial platforms.
“The role of unmanned aerial systems (UAS) is becoming increasingly important for military conflicts,” he acknowledged in a nod to their use in nearby theatres in recent years.
“UAS have assumed the lead role as force multipliers that could play a decisive role in the final outcome of modern-day battles,” he said. The air force used both defensive and offensive UAS in the exercise.





One of the UAS deployed during the exercise. PHOTO: PAF HANDOUT

The CAS emphasized that PAF was fully cognizant of the geo-strategic developments in the region and was fully prepared to defend Pakistan’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.
“Our focus remains on operational excellence, continued modernization through smart inductions of cutting-edge niche technologies, effect-based training and better human resource development to befittingly address contemporary and future challenges,” the air chief said
The air chief expressed his satisfaction regarding the overall combat readiness of the air force and assured the nation that PAF, alongside its sister services, is ever-ready to give a befitting response to any misadventure by the adversary.








Pakistan’s new J-10 squadron stretches legs in major defence exercise


Operational air defence exercise features drones, surface-air missiles



www.samaaenglish.tv

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## Talon

White privilege said:


> Is it one of the five schools under ACE now ?? However if there are no dedicated aircraft under other four schools, then CCS aircraft would become ACE aircraft by default...
> View attachment 883419


Look closely at the other "schools" insignias .. answer is right there in the picture you shared


----------



## CLUMSY

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Pakistan’s new J-10 squadron stretches legs in major defence exercise​Operational air defence exercise features drones, surface-air missiles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Chinese-built omnirole fighters J-10C Dragons were inducted in the PAF earlier this year. PHOTO: PAF HANDOUT IMAGE.
> *Pakistan Air Force (PAF) just concluded an air defence exercise in the country focusing on the eastern defence theater, featuring some of the latest armaments recently inducted into the force.*
> According to a statement and other media released by Pakistan Air Force’s media wing the other day, Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu on Wednesday oversaw the exercise.
> The exercise “focused on fostering synergy while considering future warfare challenges,” as it practiced counter-air operations to validate contemporary employment concepts.
> 
> The exercise also focused on integrating the air force and army’s air defence assets while training PAF’s operational crew to develop, practice and validate tactics.
> While monitoring the exercise from the Command Operations Center, the air chief assessed the integration and synergistic employment of offensive and defensive forces in conjunction with the army’s air defence to practice contemporary employment concepts under near-realistic threat scenarios.
> Among the operational assets deployed were the full range of fighter aircraft, including the newly-inducted squadron of Chinese-built omnirole fighters J-10C. Other assets included static and mobile air defence elements, force multipliers and ground and aerial battle management centers, including the airborne early warning radars Saab.
> While the J-10s have been included in a host of training and exercises since their induction in spring, this was the first major domestic multi-force exercise it had participated in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This combination image released by PAF about the training shows the J-10 along with the co-developed JF-17. PHOTO: PAF HANDOUT IMAGE
> 
> Earlier, the air chief visited an operational base to assess the integration of the newly acquired unmanned aerial systems (UAS) in the PAF’s operational fleet and defence array as part of the exercise.
> He highlighted the importance of unmanned aerial platforms.
> “The role of unmanned aerial systems (UAS) is becoming increasingly important for military conflicts,” he acknowledged in a nod to their use in nearby theatres in recent years.
> “UAS have assumed the lead role as force multipliers that could play a decisive role in the final outcome of modern-day battles,” he said. The air force used both defensive and offensive UAS in the exercise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the UAS deployed during the exercise. PHOTO: PAF HANDOUT
> 
> The CAS emphasized that PAF was fully cognizant of the geo-strategic developments in the region and was fully prepared to defend Pakistan’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.
> “Our focus remains on operational excellence, continued modernization through smart inductions of cutting-edge niche technologies, effect-based training and better human resource development to befittingly address contemporary and future challenges,” the air chief said
> The air chief expressed his satisfaction regarding the overall combat readiness of the air force and assured the nation that PAF, alongside its sister services, is ever-ready to give a befitting response to any misadventure by the adversary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan’s new J-10 squadron stretches legs in major defence exercise
> 
> 
> Operational air defence exercise features drones, surface-air missiles
> 
> 
> 
> www.samaaenglish.tv


Not a very good title

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## ghazi52

,.,.
Pakistan Air Force J-10C multirole fighter flying alongside two AEWACs; a Saab 2000 Erieye and a ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle.

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## air marshal



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## emotionless_teenage

Falcon26 said:


> There’s no 4.5 generation fighter than can supercruise. In fact, the only planes that can do so without afterburner is the F-22. Glad to be corrected.


Gripen can supercruise, more so with Gripen E with more powerful engine

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## Princeps Senatus

emotionless_teenage said:


> Gripen can supercruise, more so with Gripen E with more powerful engine


Once again, it has to burn first then it can "supercruise" for some minutes. This is not real supercruise.


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## siegecrossbow

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.
> Pakistan Air Force J-10C multirole fighter flying alongside two AEWACs; a Saab 2000 Erieye and a ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle.
> 
> View attachment 884575



Is this a recent image or taken from the March parade?


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## MIRauf

siegecrossbow said:


> Is this a recent image or taken from the March parade?


It's from Parade, Poster posts old images frequently when finds them on other sites.

On positive note, one doesn't have to go searching for image they interested in, one negative side nothing new.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502412674939998212

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Some Chinese beauties

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*Indus Dragon



*

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## siegecrossbow

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502412674939998212



I think the Chinese guy is a part of the ground crew. Given that the pilot essentially entrusts his life to how well the aircraft is maintained, no surprise that they are close.

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## ghazi52

.,,.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*Dragon & Viper



*

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Ali_Baba

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 886910
> 
> 
> View attachment 886911



This model is potentially incorrect - the rear two pylons cannot be wired to carry smart munitions - only dumb munitions.

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## syed_yusuf

Ali_Baba said:


> This model is potentially incorrect - the rear two pylons cannot be wired to carry smart munitions - only dumb munitions.


really, how would you know, any link to support ?


----------



## Trango Towers

Irfan Baloch said:


> I am not so sure if F-16 saga is over yet. whether or not we can get any more of them is a separate debate.
> J10 is indeed a tentative first step towards it.
> how well it really and honestly covers for everything F1-6 offers (and some) depends on what its users say without being politically correct or pressured to say the "right" and "halal" thing only. and that will take its time.
> 
> 
> for me J-20 is that shoe box without proportions , tiny wings and a showbox fuselage with tiny canards and disproportionate wings. despite all this that thing flies which is something.
> the bulge on the J10 doesnt bother me.
> which brings me to the conclusion that the beauty (or lack of it ) is in the eye of the beholder.


Oh dear...what a post


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## serenity

syed_yusuf said:


> really, how would you know, any link to support ?



Because only been spotted with unguided drop bombs. Those four fuselage pylons are smaller pylons and not used for missiles or heavier air to ground weapons. Since they are smaller pylons that are not even fit for missiles or guided weapons, they are not wired for them. Missiles only on the six wing pylons. Center fuselage pylon also only for drop tank.

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## syed_yusuf

serenity said:


> Because only been spotted with unguided drop bombs. Those four fuselage pylons are smaller pylons and not used for missiles or heavier air to ground weapons. Since they are smaller pylons that are not even fit for missiles or guided weapons, they are not wired for them. Missiles only on the six wing pylons. Center fuselage pylon also only for drop tank.


not correct, all 6 underwing pylon and centerline are wired for various payload and ammo. two air intake pylon are wired for many various pods and not too bulky weapons. the rear fuselage pylon could be used for various weapons load, there is nothing stopping to use them for weapons fit the size and weight.


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## Bleek

syed_yusuf said:


> not correct, all 6 underwing pylon and centerline are wired for various payload and ammo. two air intake pylon are wired for many various pods and not too bulky weapons. the rear fuselage pylon could be used for various weapons load, there is nothing stopping to use them for weapons fit the size and weight.


Can you confirm if this is true? @Deino


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## Trango Towers

Bleek said:


> Can you confirm if this is true? @Deino


Bro apply some common sense


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## Ali_Baba

syed_yusuf said:


> not correct, all 6 underwing pylon and centerline are wired for various payload and ammo. two air intake pylon are wired for many various pods and not too bulky weapons. the rear fuselage pylon could be used for various weapons load, there is nothing stopping to use them for weapons fit the size and weight.



really, how would you know, any link to support ?

😜

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## Deino

Bleek said:


> Can you confirm if this is true? @Deino



No, he is wrong and @serenity is correct. Actually I don’t why he is still posting these lies again and again

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## MastanKhan

Bleek said:


> Can you confirm if this is true? @Deino


Hi,

So you are trying to determine who has a sure fire inside information.

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## Sinnerman108

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 886910
> 
> 
> View attachment 886911



that is a toy !


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## mdmm

Kindly confirm that Pakistan is getting 64 J-10 C from China,.
Here are different sources telling different numbers of 5th Genration J-10 C .








Pak Air Force will buy 60 latest J-10 CP from China


ISLAMABAD (92 News) – First J-10 CP will reach to the country in March while within next few months second and third also will be handed over to Pakistan.




92newshd.tv




As per Pakistani media (92 News HD). Pakistan has extended its order of J-10C to 60 .
As per Pakistani media (92 News HD). Pakistan has extended its order of J-10C to 60 (As per other sources 64), initially Pakistan ordered 36x J-10C fighter jets from China.
During recent (2022) visit to USA, Honorable Gen. Qamar Bajwa requested to USA authority to sell latest F-16 to Pakistan ,but USA refused strictly.
So J-10 C is the only option for Pakistan Army to buy ,even more than 60 .

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## Mrc

Stand off dominance

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*The Game Changer



*

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## SQ8

Deino said:


> No, he is wrong and @serenity is correct. Actually I don’t why he is still posting these lies again and again


Wishful thinking to want to overbloat the capabilities of what is still a decent system.

While nothing stops anyone from adding additional wiring(and weight) to it to potentially allow carriage of SDB class weapons the payoff is simply not there(yet) for it to be considered.

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## RAMPAGE

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *The Game Changer
> View attachment 887622
> *


So which did we get: PL15 or PL15E? @Deino


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## Bleek

RAMPAGE said:


> So which did we get: PL15 or PL15E? @Deino


Both apparently, but PL-15E is confirmed.


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## PakFactor

mdmm said:


> Kindly confirm that Pakistan is getting 64 J-10 C from China,.
> Here are different sources telling different numbers of 5th Genration J-10 C .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pak Air Force will buy 60 latest J-10 CP from China
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD (92 News) – First J-10 CP will reach to the country in March while within next few months second and third also will be handed over to Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 92newshd.tv
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As per Pakistani media (92 News HD). Pakistan has extended its order of J-10C to 60 .
> As per Pakistani media (92 News HD). Pakistan has extended its order of J-10C to 60 (As per other sources 64), initially Pakistan ordered 36x J-10C fighter jets from China.
> During recent (2022) visit to USA, Honorable Gen. Qamar Bajwa requested to USA authority to sell latest F-16 to Pakistan ,but USA refused strictly.
> So J-10 C is the only option for Pakistan Army to buy ,even more than 60 .



This is interesting news.


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## SQ8

RAMPAGE said:


> So which did we get: PL15 or PL15E? @Deino


PL-15s in token numbers(no more than 50-60) shipped directly from PLA stock to fly with hybrid Blk-2 with AESA post Balakot.

PL-15E delivered with J-10C and to be integrated with Block-3s. Mixed signals on whether the range difference of export variant applies or not - but for all known and verified official sources and not hearsay - the PL-15E is 145km max NEZ range

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## Abramar

I don't know why people still believe that the PL-15 and PL-15E have different performance. Anyone who knows anything about missiles will know that range figures are useless.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Abramar said:


> I don't know why people still believe that the PL-15 and PL-15E have different performance. Anyone who knows anything about missiles will know that range figures are useless.


As long as PAF maintains the "asymmetric" advantage - 02/27 style - over IAF all is good for the time being....

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## arslank03

Abramar said:


> I don't know why people still believe that the PL-15 and PL-15E have different performance. Anyone who knows anything about missiles will know that range figures are useless.


well, because objectively they do, the PL-15E is a 'clean' version for export, downgraded vs the original. This is not new, Russia and the Soviets do and did this all the time


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## Abramar

arslank03 said:


> well, because objectively they do, the PL-15E is a 'clean' version for export, downgraded vs the original. This is not new, Russia and the Soviets do and did this all the time


Case in point.


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## SQ8

Abramar said:


> I don't know why people still believe that the PL-15 and PL-15E have different performance. Anyone who knows anything about missiles will know that range figures are useless.


Not exactly - range figures aren’t useless but not cut in stone. Multiple variables set at a control value contribute to that Range figure but it is a verified figure for those control variables.

Whether any missiles are ever fired at those control values is a different debate and likely never are but that doesn’t mean those range figures aren’t valid for those exact control values.

The differences within the PL-15 standard and E isn’t just about ranges but motor type which contributes a lot of constants to which the differences in range variables can lead to different results. 
Be it off the rail acceleration or burn time which can make a difference in every range scenario they would encounter

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

J-10C Serial # 22-110 from the 2nd batch taxing for a training sortie at a FOB

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF J10C Aircraft Powered with Shenyang WS-10B Engine.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## airmarshal



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> View attachment 887952


You always get there before me.  
This was also mentioned with this image.



Aircraft Delivered: 12



Initial Order: 36



Expected/Additional Order: Up to 60+

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

J-10CE of Pakistan Air Force in a 3 ship formation over Northern Areas

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## Sapei

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> You always get there before me.
> This was also mentioned with this image.
> 
> 
> 
> Aircraft Delivered: 12
> 
> 
> 
> Initial Order: 36
> 
> 
> 
> Expected/Additional Order: Up to 60+



Awesome. How does the delivery schedule work?

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## Ghessan

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> You always get there before me.
> This was also mentioned with this image.
> 
> 
> 
> Aircraft Delivered: 12
> 
> 
> 
> Initial Order: 36
> 
> 
> 
> Expected/Additional Order: Up to 60+


and people call him names of repeating same images without realizing how much his contribution is to the forum. 
@ghazi52 keep going man.
you too @FOOLS_NIGHTMARE 👍

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## mdmm

Kindly provide news.
Will PL-15E be integrated with J-10 CE and all JF17 Block 2 and Block-3s and Mirage 3 and 5 jet fighters too ??
So far how many total of PL-15E , has China delivered to Pakistan ??


----------



## siegecrossbow

mdmm said:


> Kindly provide news.
> Will PL-15E be integrated with J-10 CE and all JF17 Block 2 and Block-3s and Mirage 3 and 5 jet fighters too ??
> So far how many total of PL-15E , has China delivered to Pakistan ??



Why would you want to integrate it to a mirage?

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## Princeps Senatus

mdmm said:


> Kindly provide news.
> Will PL-15E be integrated with J-10 CE and all JF17 Block 2 and Block-3s and Mirage 3 and 5 jet fighters too ??
> So far how many total of PL-15E , has China delivered to Pakistan ??


Mirages don't have capable enough radars to utilize PL-15 to its full extent, so why bother, even PL-12 would be more than enough, and there has been talk of integrating Turkish missiles with them.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

J-10 Paint work

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## PakFactor

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> PAF J10C Aircraft Powered with Shenyang WS-10B Engine.
> View attachment 887924



Looking at this, you can tell the Chinese manufacturing process has improved immenselly.


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## Zarvan

Pakistan Strategic Forum guys are claiming that J-10 C ordered has been doubled and now order is of 72 jets.

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## Abid123

Zarvan said:


> Pakistan Strategic Forum guys are claiming that J-10 C ordered has been doubled and now order is of 72 jets.


Bro it needs to be minimum 108 jets(6 squadrons).


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## ghazi52

,.,..,

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## Zarvan

Abid123 said:


> Bro it needs to be minimum 108 jets(6 squadrons).


Then pray India orders 114 more Rafale in MRCA order. Then you would see close to 200 J-10 C in PAF.

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## Bleek

Zarvan said:


> Then pray India orders 114 more Rafale in MRCA order. Then you would see close to 200 J-10 C in PAF.


An arms race is not a good thing, we simply don't have the economy to support such a thing

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## Zarvan

Bleek said:


> An arms race is not a good thing, we simply don't have the economy to support such a thing


We don't have any other option also

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## serenity

You cannot outspend India in an arms race therefore it is not a good idea. But keeping up with Indian new acquisitions by making better value purchases is the least worst path. That's what J-10CE purchase is about. In response to IAF buying Rafale. But why buy over 100 J-10CE?

If that is the case, may as well convert JF-17 manufacturing resources into making J-10. Do a deal with China and domesticate the J-10 line for as much in house production as possible. More than 100 units of J-10 is basically close to justifying adding those extra costs and getting the platform in house. This also allows China's new J-10 production line to make J-10 for PLAAF which is needed as a number filler fighter for PLAAF.

The production has moved from Chengdu to Guizhou. Chengdu's production is focused on J-20. But bothering to start a production line with Guizhou Aircraft Corporation means PLAAF is interested in continuing to buy J-10C which means PLAAF has a need for more. 100 units will be too many for China to export to Pakistan without justifying another production line either in China or in Pakistan. The problem is Pakistan would have to shoulder the cost and the only way to make that cost worthwhile is by buying in large numbers. That would take resources away from 5th generation acquisition for Pakistan.

India also has not purchased anywhere near 100 Rafale. Even if PAF can buy three J-10CE for the price of every Rafale IAF buys (China selling to Pakistan at pretty much same price the PLAAF buys), it is a provocative act which would require India to respond in pure numbers.

I think PAF orders for J-10 ought to remain under 100 just to keep up with IAF Rafale orders. Maybe 1.5 margin rather than 1:1. Otherwise save up for airforce variant of J-35. Better yet, develop the country. The security with India should be secured via diplomacy, if not possible, deterrence secured through military means which Pakistan has.

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## mdmm

Kindly confirm the news (above) that How much of J=10 CE is Pakistan buying from China??
Is it 36 or 72 jets. ??
We ,Overseas Pakistani are concerened with future defence of Pakistan ??


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## Silicon0000

36 till 2022. 
36 more till 2026. 
Total planned number in 90s till 2032. 




mdmm said:


> Kindly confirm the news (above) that How much of J=10 CE is Pakistan buying from China??
> Is it 36 or 72 jets. ??
> We ,Overseas Pakistani are concerened with future defence of Pakistan ??



Can be more if need arise.

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## FuturePAF

serenity said:


> You cannot outspend India in an arms race therefore it is not a good idea. But keeping up with Indian new acquisitions by making better value purchases is the least worst path. That's what J-10CE purchase is about. In response to IAF buying Rafale. But why buy over 100 J-10CE?
> 
> If that is the case, may as well convert JF-17 manufacturing resources into making J-10. Do a deal with China and domesticate the J-10 line for as much in house production as possible. More than 100 units of J-10 is basically close to justifying adding those extra costs and getting the platform in house. This also allows China's new J-10 production line to make J-10 for PLAAF which is needed as a number filler fighter for PLAAF.
> 
> The production has moved from Chengdu to Guizhou. Chengdu's production is focused on J-20. But bothering to start a production line with Guizhou Aircraft Corporation means PLAAF is interested in continuing to buy J-10C which means PLAAF has a need for more. 100 units will be too many for China to export to Pakistan without justifying another production line either in China or in Pakistan. The problem is Pakistan would have to shoulder the cost and the only way to make that cost worthwhile is by buying in large numbers. That would take resources away from 5th generation acquisition for Pakistan.
> 
> India also has not purchased anywhere near 100 Rafale. Even if PAF can buy three J-10CE for the price of every Rafale IAF buys (China selling to Pakistan at pretty much same price the PLAAF buys), it is a provocative act which would require India to respond in pure numbers.
> 
> I think PAF orders for J-10 ought to remain under 100 just to keep up with IAF Rafale orders. Maybe 1.5 margin rather than 1:1. Otherwise save up for airforce variant of J-35. Better yet, develop the country. The security with India should be secured via diplomacy, if not possible, deterrence secured through military means which Pakistan has.


India already operates nearly 300 Su-30MKI, and is looking to upgrade them. Acquiring 100 or so J-10 should be seen in that context as well.



Silicon0000 said:


> 36 till 2022.
> 36 more till 2026.
> Total planned number in 90s till 2032.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can be more if need arise.


If the PAF plans to acquire 90 or more J-10s, they might as well retool the JF-17 production line to also produce the J-10. Best way to move up the value added chain (more structural composite production, more sub-system production such as the IRST, etc.) more and service our fighters domestically.

Local production could also make structural modifications more easier to perform.

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## Abid123

Zarvan said:


> Then pray India orders 114 more Rafale in MRCA order. Then you would see close to 200 J-10 C in PAF.


We should not engage in a arms race with India. PAF does have its own requirements for modernization. We need currently replace 150 older fighter jets. Also I am not worried about IAF Rafale fleet but their 274 SU-30MKI's.


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## iLION12345_1

Zarvan said:


> Then pray India orders 114 more Rafale in MRCA order. Then you would see close to 200 J-10 C in PAF.


They won’t. Or rather they shouldn’t. Would be a stupid move given delivery timelines unless they’re willing to set up almost entirely local production. Rafale order backlogs mean that if india places an order now, they won’t get a new Rafale till after 2030. They have other options.

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## FuturePAF

Abid123 said:


> We should not engage in a arms race with India. PAF does have its own requirements for modernization. We need currently replace 150 older fighter jets. Also I am not worried about IAF Rafale fleet but their 274 SU-30MKI's.


There is also the need to confront the Indian navy and its next potential fighter alongside the Mig-29K. The J-10 is well suited for that amongst the current fleet, as it can have a continuous stream of new munitions integrated as the threat evolves. At least one squadron dedicated to defense of the coast and the navy fleet is paramount as the Indian navy’s capabilities mature.


----------



## MastanKhan

FuturePAF said:


> India already operates nearly 300 Su-30MKI, and is looking to upgrade them. Acquiring 100 or so J-10 should be seen in that context as well.
> 
> 
> If the PAF plans to acquire 90 or more J-10s, they might as well retool the JF-17 production line to also produce the J-10. Best way to move up the value added chain (more structural composite production, more sub-system production such as the IRST, etc.) more and service our fighters domestically.
> 
> Local production could also make structural modifications more easier to perform.


Hi,

J-10 and JF-17's are an extremely cost effective combo---price per unit as well as price per flight hour.

With aesa radar equipped---PL15's and PL10's missiles---they are an extremely potent combo in the non 5th gen realm.

JF 17 aircrafts have one of the fastest spool up time for the engine ( startup to ready to fly ).

A JF17 starts up at Kamra and an SU30 stars up at Srinagar at the same time---. The JF17 will be target locking at sri nagar from the air even before the SU30 took off from the ground.

From initial start to 5000 ft is extremely crucial in any combat---. JF 17 can do it very quick. Professionals can jump in and correct me.

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## serenity

FuturePAF said:


> India already operates nearly 300 Su-30MKI, and is looking to upgrade them. Acquiring 100 or so J-10 should be seen in that context as well.
> 
> 
> If the PAF plans to acquire 90 or more J-10s, they might as well retool the JF-17 production line to also produce the J-10. Best way to move up the value added chain (more structural composite production, more sub-system production such as the IRST, etc.) more and service our fighters domestically.
> 
> Local production could also make structural modifications more easier to perform.





Abid123 said:


> We should not engage in a arms race with India. PAF does have its own requirements for modernization. We need currently replace 150 older fighter jets. Also I am not worried about IAF Rafale fleet but their 274 SU-30MKI's.



Yes this is the case when considering that this is India's most numerous 4th generation fighter but the MKI is not a 4.5 generation fighter. It is a fighter with 1990s technology development basis and 2000s build. Using 1980s technology basis Soviet missile systems with 2000s and 2010s build. This is thoroughly base line 4th generation but just better than the first two blocks of 4th generation. Think of them as between 4th gen and 4.5 gen.

JF-17 block 2 is in this league while block 3 is above that when it comes to electronics, radar, software, and missile systems. The major drawback of JF-17 is that it is a tiny fighter and its subsystems are budget and smaller (generally less powerful) ones even if modern.

However a JF-17 block 2 using PL-12 have technology advantage over Su-30MKI in missile performance but MKI simply has better energy, range, payload and flight performance to edge out on JF-17.

To counter MKI using J-10 would be spending too much money for PAF to be sensible. Block 3 induction delays mean there is only J-10 and newer upgrades to F-16 on the cards for countering Rafale and MKI.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> J-10 and JF-17's are an extremely cost effective combo---price per unit as well as price per flight hour.
> 
> With aesa radar equipped---PL15's and PL10's missiles---they are an extremely potent combo in the non 5th gen realm.
> 
> JF 17 aircrafts have one of the fastest spool up time for the engine ( startup to ready to fly ).
> 
> A JF17 starts up at Kamra and an SU30 stars up at Srinagar at the same time---. The JF17 will be target locking at sri nagar from the air even before the SU30 took off from the ground.
> 
> From initial start to 5000 ft is extremely crucial in any combat---. JF 17 can do it very quick. Professionals can jump in and correct me.



Su-30 has much better climb rate and thrust to weight ratio. It should get to positions faster than JF-17.

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## Bleek

serenity said:


> Yes this is the case when considering that this is India's most numerous 4th generation fighter but the MKI is not a 4.5 generation fighter. It is a fighter with 1990s technology development basis and 2000s build. Using 1980s technology basis Soviet missile systems with 2000s and 2010s build. This is thoroughly base line 4th generation but just better than the first two blocks of 4th generation. Think of them as between 4th gen and 4.5 gen.
> 
> JF-17 block 2 is in this league while block 3 is above that when it comes to electronics, radar, software, and missile systems. The major drawback of JF-17 is that it is a tiny fighter and its subsystems are budget and smaller (generally less powerful) ones even if modern.
> 
> However a JF-17 block 2 using PL-12 have technology advantage over Su-30MKI in missile performance but MKI simply has better energy, range, payload and flight performance to edge out on JF-17.
> 
> To counter MKI using J-10 would be spending too much money for PAF to be sensible. Block 3 induction delays mean there is only J-10 and newer upgrades to F-16 on the cards for countering Rafale and MKI.


Doesn't the Su-30MKI also have the Astra missile equipped and the Israeli I-Derby ER?


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## serenity

Bleek said:


> Doesn't the Su-30MKI also have the Astra missile equipped and the Israeli I-Derby ER?



They do now yes quite true. Astra is still not in mass production.

Both surely better than the old R-77 or R-27 which are the main missiles for Su-30MKI.


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## FuturePAF

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> J-10 and JF-17's are an extremely cost effective combo---price per unit as well as price per flight hour.
> 
> With aesa radar equipped---PL15's and PL10's missiles---they are an extremely potent combo in the non 5th gen realm.
> 
> JF 17 aircrafts have one of the fastest spool up time for the engine ( startup to ready to fly ).
> 
> A JF17 starts up at Kamra and an SU30 stars up at Srinagar at the same time---. The JF17 will be target locking at sri nagar from the air even before the SU30 took off from the ground.
> 
> From initial start to 5000 ft is extremely crucial in any combat---. JF 17 can do it very quick. Professionals can jump in and correct me.


Did not know the JF-17 could spool up that fast, thanks for the info. Really hope they complete the motorway network, so that remote motorway bases can be utilized with the JF-17 to generate sprite numbers and maintain air superiority over Pakistan.

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## FuturePAF

serenity said:


> Yes this is the case when considering that this is India's most numerous 4th generation fighter but the MKI is not a 4.5 generation fighter. It is a fighter with 1990s technology development basis and 2000s build. Using 1980s technology basis Soviet missile systems with 2000s and 2010s build. This is thoroughly base line 4th generation but just better than the first two blocks of 4th generation. Think of them as between 4th gen and 4.5 gen.
> 
> JF-17 block 2 is in this league while block 3 is above that when it comes to electronics, radar, software, and missile systems. The major drawback of JF-17 is that it is a tiny fighter and its subsystems are budget and smaller (generally less powerful) ones even if modern.
> 
> However a JF-17 block 2 using PL-12 have technology advantage over Su-30MKI in missile performance but MKI simply has better energy, range, payload and flight performance to edge out on JF-17.
> 
> To counter MKI using J-10 would be spending too much money for PAF to be sensible. Block 3 induction delays mean there is only J-10 and newer upgrades to F-16 on the cards for countering Rafale and MKI.
> 
> 
> 
> Su-30 has much better climb rate and thrust to weight ratio. It should get to positions faster than JF-17.


First, with that many fighters in their Air Force and the potential supply issue with regard to Russian spares, it’s obvious that they would want to do a real domestic Mid-Life upgrade. This is why we need to push our fighter to be their best. 

This is why further development of the WS-13/WS-19 till it achieves the expected performance of the F-414EPE should be prioritized by the PAF. Better TWR, better fuel efficiency to allow longer sorties, more power for the radar and EW equipment, and the ability to carry greater payloads such as dedicated jamming pods or heavier A2G munitions (the J-10s should be freed up to fulfill the air superiority role, so the JF-17 should be upgraded to handle all A2G requirements, even longer range maritime strike; which would also help in export marketing for countries like Argentina). The JF-17 maybe classified as a light fighter, but it is nearly the same size as the F-16, but with a lower TWR.

Some redesign to accommodate more Ram Paint and ceramic stealth panels could help reduce the RCS enough that it would force fights in closer, where a pilot skill could be the deciding factor.


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## Zarvan

Abid123 said:


> We should not engage in a arms race with India. PAF does have its own requirements for modernization. We need currently replace 150 older fighter jets. Also I am not worried about IAF Rafale fleet but their 274 SU-30MKI's.


You will be worried when they order 114 more.


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## MastanKhan

FuturePAF said:


> *Did not know the JF-17 could spool up that fast,* thanks for the info. Really hope they complete the motorway network, so that remote motorway bases can be utilized with the JF-17 to generate sprite numbers and maintain air superiority over Pakistan.


Hi,

Yessir---. That is why posted so close to the border---. Never underestimate that little bird----. There was a reason it was built that way---.



serenity said:


> Su-30 has much better climb rate and thrust to weight ratio. It should get to positions faster than JF-17.


Hi,

Your comment has nothing in relation to what I commented on. Thank you.

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## siegecrossbow

serenity said:


> Yes this is the case when considering that this is India's most numerous 4th generation fighter but the MKI is not a 4.5 generation fighter. It is a fighter with 1990s technology development basis and 2000s build. Using 1980s technology basis Soviet missile systems with 2000s and 2010s build. This is thoroughly base line 4th generation but just better than the first two blocks of 4th generation. Think of them as between 4th gen and 4.5 gen.
> 
> JF-17 block 2 is in this league while block 3 is above that when it comes to electronics, radar, software, and missile systems. The major drawback of JF-17 is that it is a tiny fighter and its subsystems are budget and smaller (generally less powerful) ones even if modern.
> 
> However a JF-17 block 2 using PL-12 have technology advantage over Su-30MKI in missile performance but MKI simply has better energy, range, payload and flight performance to edge out on JF-17.
> 
> To counter MKI using J-10 would be spending too much money for PAF to be sensible. Block 3 induction delays mean there is only J-10 and newer upgrades to F-16 on the cards for countering Rafale and MKI.
> 
> 
> 
> *Su-30 has much better climb rate and thrust to weight ratio. It should get to positions faster than JF-17.*



True, but it suffers from a much larger RCS. In contrast the JF-17 has a much smaller frontal profile, which offsets the advantage of MKI's radar.

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## serenity

siegecrossbow said:


> True, but it suffers from a much larger RCS. In contrast the JF-17 has a much smaller frontal profile, which offsets the advantage of MKI's radar.



And yet the MKI's radar is thoroughly obsolete by 2022 standards. In fact, obsolete by 2010 standards when talking about leading edge.

Overall I do not believe 270 MKIs is more effective in air to air role than 270 JF-17 block 2. Radar obsolescnent performance and RCS are roughly going to balance each other, both have second to third tier radars by 2022 standards. In missiles domain, PL-12 is considerably better than R-27 and better than R-77. The only missiles roughly equal to PL-12 are I-Derby and Astra which MKI are not massively equipped with. PL-15 is on another level when comparing with Astra... look at the difference between India and China's rocketry technologies, fuel technologies, explosives technologies, materials technologies, electronics technologies, and rocket engine technologies. There's zero comparison. Basically a shit undergrad compared to world renowned researcher.

Astra being equal to even PL-12 I have my doubts about. Now JF-17 block 3 will spot MKI from over 200km away in part thanks to MKI's monstrous RCS. After all the detection range vs RCS is exponential. Block 3 has AESA albeit a very budget one and limited in power, it is technologically like comparing LED to incandescent light bulbs if not even to candles in terms of technology principle. PL-15 of block 3 even in export variant is far superior to MKI's best missiles I-Derby and Astra. But block 3 is not in service and over 270 MKI are. So the only comparison of volume fighter is JF-17 block 2 which are much lower in numbers than MKI.

PAF is in a massive numerical disadvantage and cannot arms race India into any sort of victory but it doesn't need to when the aim is deterrence.

India can overwhelm Pakistan but at unacceptable costs. The balance of that cost is where PAF needs to ensure it doesn't fall too far behind in acquisitions but the advantage here is India has little to no domestic capability to produce even 4.5 generation fighter and put into service in significant numbers. Therefore it imports top shelf products and that is exceedingly expensive which helps the price component of arms racing and not falling far behind balance.

If we put F-35, F-22, J-20 in first tier category of inservice fighters in terms of capability ranges. MKI is third tier, below second tier - Typhoons, J-10C, J-16, latest Rafale, latest F-15 F-16 etc. The Indians have delayed upgrading them to the point even J-11B (origin units in below MKI league) upgrades are more capable and done for far more units (AESA and general systems upgrades). JF-17 block 3 would approach the second tier and sit on the boundary basically when only considered for pure A2A role because it's overall performance vs everything out there is quite limited by size.

Rafale gives IAF something in the second tier, they have purchased 36 units of the latest block with the best weapons. PAF's J-10CE purchase lets PAF get something in the second tier in response. Here, it is the absolute best of France and what France has to offer vs the absolute most budget in production fighter that China has to offer. For security, PAF should aim for a 1.5:1 ratio of J-10CE:Rafale. Certainly the price allows for this and more.

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## FuturePAF

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yessir---. That is why posted so close to the border---. Never underestimate that little bird----. There was a reason it was built that way---.
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Your comment has nothing in relation to what I commented on. Thank you.


Would the JF-17 benefit significantly with the inclusion of an APU for motorway operations? (Allowing it to be less reliant on ground equipment, and only requiring a few ground crew to quickly service the jet, refuel and rearm it, and return it to the fight ASAP)


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## MastanKhan

FuturePAF said:


> Would the JF-17 benefit significantly with the inclusion of an APU for motorway operations? (Allowing it to be less reliant on ground equipment, and only requiring a few ground crew to quickly service the jet, refuel and rearm it, and return it to the fight ASAP)



Hi,,

As great as it looks---the motorway operation is for losers---it is for a lost cause---it is a last ditch effort to save your self till someone comes to your rescue---or die fighting till the end just to have the living say " look how they died----".

With the downfall of russia---sweden won't be landing Gripens on the freeways anymore---. The russian myth is broken---.

Technology is king---have a better product in large numbers---have better killing machines---and forget about the freeways---hurt the enemy so bad----that you don't have to hide on the freeways---.

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## VkdIndian

siegecrossbow said:


> True, but it suffers from a much larger RCS. In contrast the JF-17 has a much smaller frontal profile, which offsets the advantage of MKI's radar.


Wouldn’t radar performance be based on power too? It would give it capability to detect and lock on to a target with an RCS above a certain threshold. JF-17s profile is small but with weapons and missiles loaded, the RCS is likely to increase, compared to that with no external weapons.

Block 3’s AESA would be better as a technology but SU-30 pumps in massive amount of power and that would allow it to detect targets at a farther range. JF-17s RCS must be quite low but if it is above a certain threshold then it would be still detected and locked on to.
Only caveat is that SU-30 should have a capable missile and be able to get a launch solution to exploit the radar lock. That is a different story all together as we saw after 26/11.

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## Princeps Senatus

VkdIndian said:


> Wouldn’t radar performance be based on power too? It would give it capability to detect and lock on to a target with an RCS above a certain threshold, JF-17s profile is small but with weapons and missiles loaded the RCS is likely to increase it compared to that with no external weapons.
> 
> Block 3’s AESA would be better as a technology but SU-30 pumps in massive amount of power that would allow it to detect targets at a farther range. JF-17s RCS must be quite low but if it is above a certain threshold then it would be still detected and locked on to.
> Only caveat is that SU-30 should be able to get a launch solution to exploit the radar lock and that is a different story all together as we saw after 26/11.


Bars is actually not that powerful, it has a peak power output of 4-5 kW. Which might be more than KLJ-7A but not by a lot.


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## siegecrossbow

Princeps Senatus said:


> Bars is actually not that powerful, it has a peak power output of 4-5 kW. Which might be more than KLJ-7A but not by a lot.



Radar power level/antenna is only part of the equation though. As I have emphasized many times before the backend DSP is just as, if not more important than the antenna/power level. A lot of people dismiss the radar on Rafale for being small but in reality, size isn’t everything.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

The Game Changer

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## mdmm

Thank you *Mastan Khan* for very good, true information about JF17,J10C and Su30 models.

J-10 and JF-17's are an extremely cost effective combo---price per unit as well as price per flight hour. With aesa radar equipped---PL15's and PL10's missiles---they are an extremely potent combo in the non 5th gen realm. JF 17 aircrafts have one of the fastest spool up time for the engine ( startup to ready to fly ).
A JF17 starts up at Kamra and an SU30 stars up at Srinagar at the same time---. The JF17 will be target locking at sri nagar from the air even before the SU30 took off from the ground.

*MY QUESTIONS?
Are JF17 Block3 and J-10 CE capable of carrying all kind of missiles,like L-15,Meteor,(which Rafale uses), Nuclear arms,missiles etc etc ???*

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## MastanKhan

mdmm said:


> Thank you *Mastan Khan* for very good, true information about JF17,J10C and Su30 models.
> 
> J-10 and JF-17's are an extremely cost effective combo---price per unit as well as price per flight hour. With aesa radar equipped---PL15's and PL10's missiles---they are an extremely potent combo in the non 5th gen realm. JF 17 aircrafts have one of the fastest spool up time for the engine ( startup to ready to fly ).
> A JF17 starts up at Kamra and an SU30 stars up at Srinagar at the same time---. The JF17 will be target locking at sri nagar from the air even before the SU30 took off from the ground.
> 
> *MY QUESTIONS?
> Are JF17 Block3 and J-10 CE capable of carrying all kind of missiles,like L-15,Meteor,(which Rafale uses), Nuclear arms,missiles etc etc ???*


Hi,

Pakistani JF17's & J10's are truly and purely Chinese centric weapons operators. To that, add pakistani weapons and possibly weapons of Turkieye.

These weapons are similar to european weapons---some are better---others are on equal capability---.

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## Talon

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,,
> 
> As great as it looks---the motorway operation is for losers---it is for a lost cause---it is a last ditch effort to save your self till someone comes to your rescue---or die fighting till the end just to have the living say " look how they died----".
> 
> With the downfall of russia---sweden won't be landing Gripens on the freeways anymore---. The russian myth is broken---.
> 
> Technology is king---have a better product in large numbers---have better killing machines---and forget about the freeways---hurt the enemy so bad----that you don't have to hide on the freeways---.


Motorway landings for following emergency purposes :
1) Low fuel
2) Primary and Secondary Runways unavailable due to either being destroyed or occupied due to traffic/other emergency aircrafts
3) Technical Emergency
4) Bad Weather.. ETC
5) Interception as well as other special missions 


They are not for : Hey an enemy fighter is on my tail so I should land and save myself... If that's what you meant in your post.

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## Sifar zero

Talon said:


> Motorway landings for following emergency purposes :
> 1) Low fuel
> 2) Primary and Secondary Runways unavailable due to either being destroyed or occupied due to traffic/other emergency aircrafts
> 3) Technical Emergency
> 4) Bad Weather.. ETC
> 5) Interception as well as other special missions
> 
> 
> They are not for : Hey an enemy fighter is on my tail so I should land and save myself... If that's what you meant in your post.


Well they can be used in war time when the main runways are taken out e.g Ukrops Su 27 taking off from highways.


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## ghazi52

,..,.,

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## Bleek

mdmm said:


> *MY QUESTIONS?
> Are JF17 Block3 and J-10 CE capable of carrying all kind of missiles,like L-15,Meteor,(which Rafale uses), Nuclear arms,missiles etc etc ???*


Meteor is a European produced AAM, which I doubt we'd get access to as India has them in their stock pile and could likely prevent any sale.

They use Chinese and locally produced armaments primarily. Not sure if the Chinese would be willing to integrate foreign missiles with the jets anyway, or if PAF is interested in that.


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## Tank131

mdmm said:


> Thank you *Mastan Khan* for very good, true information about JF17,J10C and Su30 models.
> 
> J-10 and JF-17's are an extremely cost effective combo---price per unit as well as price per flight hour. With aesa radar equipped---PL15's and PL10's missiles---they are an extremely potent combo in the non 5th gen realm. JF 17 aircrafts have one of the fastest spool up time for the engine ( startup to ready to fly ).
> A JF17 starts up at Kamra and an SU30 stars up at Srinagar at the same time---. The JF17 will be target locking at sri nagar from the air even before the SU30 took off from the ground.
> 
> *MY QUESTIONS?
> Are JF17 Block3 and J-10 CE capable of carrying all kind of missiles,like L-15,Meteor,(which Rafale uses), Nuclear arms,missiles etc etc ???*


The issue is NOT capablity. The issue is integration. Any weapon COULD be carried provided the weapon is integrated with the computer and FCR. Should a costumer opt for the Leanardo Grifo E as previously considered for blk 3,then theoretically, JF-17 would have been able to carry Meteor or possibly evem AMRAAM. The European and Americans would NEVER allow their weapons to be integrated into a chinese system, not by Chinese tech, nor even Pakistani. That would require too much code sharing than would be secure/safe for them. Similar is true of China (would not allow Europeans root access to do the integration work). That was one of the reasons why JF-17 didn't get a Leonardo radar for blk 3. All its weapons are chinese, and Europe may not even be willing to se its weapons to PAF (let alone the cost to PAF to acquire them and the logistical nightmare it would create for block 2 and block 3 to use completely different weapons). Same issue arose for PN when they wanted to equip Babur class corvette with HQ-16 but radars and Missile would need integration and the Chinese refused to let the Turks do that. 

Both can or will carry Pl-15 which is equivalent (if not on paper superior) to meteor. Both should carry PL-10



SQ8 said:


> PL-15s in token numbers(no more than 50-60) shipped directly from PLA stock to fly with hybrid Blk-2 with AESA post Balakot.
> 
> PL-15E delivered with J-10C and to be integrated with Block-3s. Mixed signals on whether the range difference of export variant applies or not - but for all known and verified official sources and not hearsay - the PL-15E is 145km max NEZ range


Are you suggesting that post-Balakot, PN integrated some active duty block 2 with AESA radars and PL-15? If so, was is the KLJ-7A or the other radar that was on offer (LK601E)? If so then what is with the integration headaches and delays being experienced with block 3? I would think if they were integrated in 2019 that the block 3 would already be inducted and delayed so much like it has beem (which from what i can tell so far is mostly integration issues/growing pains).

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## arslank03

Tank131 said:


> The issue is NOT capablity. The issue is integration. Any weapon COULD be carried provided the weapon is integrated with the computer and FCR. Should a costumer opt for the Leanardo Grifo E as previously considered for blk 3,then theoretically, JF-17 would have been able to carry Meteor or possibly evem AMRAAM. The European and Americans would NEVER allow their weapons to be integrated into a chinese system, not by Chinese tech, nor even Pakistani. That would require too much code sharing than would be secure/safe for them. Similar is true of China (would not allow Europeans root access to do the integration work). That was one of the reasons why JF-17 didn't get a Leonardo radar for blk 3. All its weapons are chinese, and Europe may not even be willing to se its weapons to PAF (let alone the cost to PAF to acquire them and the logistical nightmare it would create for block 2 and block 3 to use completely different weapons). Same issue arose for PN when they wanted to equip Babur class corvette with HQ-16 but radars and Missile would need integration and the Chinese refused to let the Turks do that.
> 
> Both can or will carry Pl-15 which is equivalent (if not on paper superior) to meteor. Both should carry PL-10



So, just to kill off the first point, MBDA will NOT integrate Meteor onto a non-European radar barring the F-35. India was rejected Meteor for Tejas due to Israeli Radar.

Jinnah and Babur didnt get HQ-16 because there was no space, nothing to do with integration and turks, Chinese even tried to sell Turks hq-9.

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## Tank131

arslank03 said:


> So, just to kill off the first point, MBDA will NOT integrate Meteor onto a non-European radar barring the F-35. India was rejected Meteor for Tejas due to Israeli Radar.
> 
> Jinnah and Babur didnt get HQ-16 because there was no space, nothing to do with integration and turks, Chinese even tried to sell Turks hq-9.


Regarding the hq-16, I'll take your word for it, but selling the turks HQ-9 and allowing turks to do the integration work and integrate hq-16 code into the fire control radars are very different things. Also read that the issue was the chinese actually allowing its integration. Clearly there is space for some type of VLS though i get that the footprint for the CAMM-ER cells is far smaller those of the H/AKJ-16 the type 054A uses for HQ-16. 

Regarding the first point... Arent you reinforcing my point? I said exactly that meteor could only have been carried (potentially) IF JF-17 was using a Leonardo Grifo E...and the chinese would never be allowed or themselves would never allow integration its weapons into European radars and vis a versa.

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## arslank03

Tank131 said:


> Regarding the hq-16, I'll take your word for it, but selling the turks HQ-9 and allowing turks to do the integration work and integrate hq-16 code into the fire control radars are very different things. Also read that the issue was the chinese actually allowing its integration. Clearly there is space for some type of VLS though i get that the footprint for the CAMM-ER cells is far smaller those of the H/AKJ-16 the type 054A uses for HQ-16.
> 
> Regarding the first point... Arent you reinforcing my point? I said exactly that meteor could only have been carried (potentially) IF JF-17 was using a Leonardo Grifo E...and the chinese would never be allowed or themselves would never allow integration its weapons into European radars and vis a versa.


yes as in i was killing that point for others, not yours.

Yeah, space is very, very limited, hence why you see the current arrangement, i went over the below-deck space with an XO from one of the ships., basically there is no way to fit anything down there without lengthening, and even then, it would be tight, H/AJK-16 was too long, hence you saw the raised pedestal for it, nothing like that with GWS26.

Ironically, i think integration would be the 'easier' task, i could be completely wrong on this but since the HQ-16 does not receive midcourse guidance via TDL, rather relies on INS, you are only really telling it in which general direction to go and then finally asking it to lock onto what you illuminate, so its sort of a much 'simpler' solution vs something like CAMM which requires a 2 way datalink for midcourse guidance

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Bleek

SQ8 said:


> PL-15s in token numbers(no more than 50-60) shipped directly from PLA stock to fly with hybrid Blk-2 with AESA post Balakot.
> 
> PL-15E delivered with J-10C and to be integrated with Block-3s. Mixed signals on whether the range difference of export variant applies or not - but for all known and verified official sources and not hearsay - the PL-15E is 145km max NEZ range


Perhaps they don't want to make it public that the PL-15 was the PLAAF production variant, or it's marked export due to the simple fact it was intended for export? 

The Chinese tend to do that with all exported arms it seems. 

I don't see why they would provide it during 2019 but not now

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## arslank03

Bleek said:


> Perhaps they don't want to make it public that the PL-15 was the PLAAF production variant, or it's marked export due to the simple fact it was intended for export?
> 
> The Chinese tend to do that with all exported arms it seems.
> 
> I don't see why they would provide it during 2019 but not now




yeah, i dont buy it, nor do i buy this block 2 hybrid thingy stuff.

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## Bleek

arslank03 said:


> yeah, i dont buy it, nor do i buy this block 2 hybrid thingy stuff.


SQ8 tends to be reliable with what he claims but there's also the chance of purposeful misinformation. 

But yes, I would take it with a heavy grain of salt since nothing is confirmed.

At the moment we can confirm we received the export variant of the PL-15. Anything else is hearsay.

But I'm interested in knowing if the YCL-8E radar was confirmed? It was shown briefly in a PAF video and there was talks about it a while ago

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## Thəorətic Muslim

MastanKhan said:


> As great as it looks---the motorway operation is for losers---it is for a lost cause---it is a last ditch effort to save your self till someone comes to your rescue---or die fighting till the end just to have the living say " look how they died----".



Motorway Operations aren't a "lost cause" exercise. And I'm wondering why you believe so. The technological leaps the military industry has made in the past 40 years is astronomical. Even in the past 20 years' provisions of economies of scale have provided numerous force multipliers down to a single soldier.

Force dispersion is a measure used my many countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_strip The Swedes have taken this to an entirely total war level with their Bas 90 which provides close to 80+ strips that their Air Force can disperse to, rearm, and continue the fight.

The number of missiles an enemy could rain down has out-dated the traditional strategy of actual airforce bases as well as forward operating bases. As most of Pakistan's current ABs and FOBs (most of which are 1-2 runway) are WELL WITHIN range of Indian missiles AND rocket artillery from the border are you really expecting the PAF and PA to have enough CIWS or missile defenses to stop a barrage?

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## Tank131

I agree, usually @SQ8 IS reliable and has good takes, but here, it just doesn't seem logical. How could integration of an aesa radar which hadnt itself completed testing on the JF-17 at the time, nor had any weapons integrated at the time, be put into service on a stop gap measure in 2019,but here we are 3.5 years later and the same radar yet to enter official service with the block it was actually designed for?

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## HRK

Tank131 said:


> I agree, usually @SQ8 IS reliable and has good takes, but here, it just doesn't seem logical. How could integration of an aesa radar which hadnt itself completed testing on the JF-17 at the time, nor had any weapons integrated at the time, be put into service on a stop gap measure in 2019,but here we are 3.5 years later and the same radar yet to enter official service with the block it was actually designed for?


3 three assumptions:

- The Radar was air cooled version
_(NOTE: we already know through media reports that there were 3 AESA radars in competition for JF-17 contract KLJ-7A & LKF-601 have air cooled versions as well) _

- The Radar was built specifically for JF-17 Blk-I & II
_(NOTE: we already know PAF would upgrade its legacy fleet of JF-17 with AESA RADAR as PAF has a policy not to maintain fleet within the fleet of JF-17 as per previous Air Chief)_

- Therefore it was easy to install on the existing fleet

Just recall the *first marketing video of LKF-601 earlier version*, it was integrated and tested on FC-1/JF-17, *but was not adopted *as later reports confirmed so the question is

IF aircooled LKF-601 was integrated & tested with JF-17 than why could no other aircooled version of other AESA RADAR in competition could be tested on JF-17 ... ???

Lastly SQ8 is not the first person who is talk about it, these news/leaks or rumors whatever you would like to termed were at least 3 years old so he in fact kept the silence for such a long time give more weightage to this rumors/leaks.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1586293491230965761

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## Abid123

Thəorətic Muslim said:


> Motorway Operations aren't a "lost cause" exercise. And I'm wondering why you believe so. The technological leaps the military industry has made in the past 40 years is astronomical. Even in the past 20 years' provisions of economies of scale have provided numerous force multipliers down to a single soldier.
> 
> Force dispersion is a measure used my many countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_strip The Swedes have taken this to an entirely total war level with their Bas 90 which provides close to 80+ strips that their Air Force can disperse to, rearm, and continue the fight.
> 
> The number of missiles an enemy could rain down has out-dated the traditional strategy of actual airforce bases as well as forward operating bases. As most of Pakistan's current ABs and FOBs (most of which are 1-2 runway) are WELL WITHIN range of Indian missiles AND rocket artillery from the border are you really expecting the PAF and PA to have enough CIWS or missile defenses to stop a barrage?


There is no guarantee that the Indians (hypothetically) wont manage to launch a massive and comprehensive strike destroying/crippling many PAF airbases destroying in the first hours of conflict.


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## Tank131

HRK said:


> 3 three assumptions:
> 
> - The Radar was air cooled version
> _(NOTE: we already know through media reports that there were 3 AESA radars in competition for JF-17 contract KLJ-7A & LKF-601 have air cooled versions as well) _
> 
> - The Radar was built specifically for JF-17 Blk-I & II
> _(NOTE: we already know PAF would upgrade its legacy fleet of JF-17 with AESA RADAR as PAF has a policy not to maintain fleet within the fleet of JF-17 as per previous Air Chief)_
> 
> - Therefore it was easy to install on the existing fleet
> 
> Just recall the *first marketing video of LKF-601 earlier version*, it was integrated and tested on FC-1/JF-17, *but was not adopted *as later reports confirmed so the question is
> 
> IF aircooled LKF-601 was integrated & tested with JF-17 than why could no other aircooled version of other AESA RADAR in competition could be tested on JF-17 ... ???
> 
> Lastly SQ8 is not the first person who is talk about it, these news/leaks or rumors whatever you would like to termed were at least 3 years old so he in fact kept the silence for such a long time give more weightage to this rumors/leaks.


Not sure i buy it. The only reason i hold. Any stock in it is because @SQ8 is the person saying it. But the story still doesnt make a lot of sense. From what i recall, in 2019 they were still deciding between LKF-601E (which was air cooled) and 2 KLJ-7A versions (air and liquid cooled). If LKF-601E was ready for use why would they not have installed it more widely already, and why would they wait on KLJ-7A which by all intents and purposes, the 2 radars had similar performance. If the LKF-601E was ready, why then wasnt it more widely adopted and why has the blk 3 been 4 years of waiting?

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## Beast

Abid123 said:


> There is no guarantee that the Indians (hypothetically) wont manage to launch a massive and comprehensive strike destroying/crippling many PAF airbases destroying in the first hours of conflict.


And you think too highly of Indian. They even have problem flying fighter jet and you think they can destroy PAF on ground in few hours only? I think Indian Air Force even has problem dealing with AF like Nigeria or Angola.


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## truthseeker2010

Zarvan said:


> Then pray India orders 114 more Rafale in MRCA order. Then you would see close to 200 J-10 C in PAF.



Please first pray that economy is fixed.


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## MastanKhan

Tank131 said:


> Not sure i buy it. The only reason i hold. Any stock in it is because @SQ8 is the person saying it. But the story still doesnt make a lot of sense. From what i recall, in 2019 they were still deciding between LKF-601E (which was air cooled) and 2 KLJ-7A versions (air and liquid cooled). If LKF-601E was ready for use why would they not have installed it more widely already, and why would they wait on KLJ-7A which by all intents and purposes, the 2 radars had similar performance. If the LKF-601E was ready, why then wasnt it more widely adopted and why has the blk 3 been 4 years of waiting?


Hi,

You trying really hard for someone to spill out some information---.

Won't happen till it happens.

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## Tank131

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You trying really hard for someone to spill out some information---.
> 
> Won't happen till it happens.


No, i dont think there are any real beans to spill. We like to think of Pakistani military of always having a trick to reach when they need it, but here i dont actually think there is "any there, there". I just dont buy that there was any "hybrid block 2". It doesnt add up when we think about the delays faced by blk 3 that they already had a working solution for upgrading block 2. If they did, why, 3 years later do we not have multiple sqd of block 2 with this upgrade (it would really put PAF in an advantageous position to have hundred AESA equipped fighters).


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## HRK

Tank131 said:


> Not sure i buy i


A very logical thing I understand and appreciate it & because of this understanding I posted the probable assumptions in my previous post, just to put on record this thing first came in public domain by one of the official of PAF (I would not point it out who it was), and confirmed by another defence professional independently.

But again as both the sources were anonymous sources as per public record its better not accept anything on face value. 


Tank131 said:


> If LKF-601E was ready for use why would they not have installed it more widely already


Because it was found inferior against the KLJ-7A liquid cool version, though the integration & testing of air cooled versions of both LKF-601& KLJ-7A were reported by chinese and international media at later stage. 


Tank131 said:


> why would they wait on KLJ-7A which by all intents and purposes, the 2 radars had similar performance.


KLJ-7A no official figures of latest version of liquid cool KLJ-7A is available in public domain official performance figures which were available is related to the previous version.

Even the latest version of aircooled LKF-601 surpass the *first* version of KLJ-7A, so I believe it is logical to assume that the theory of same performance of LKF-601 & KLJ-7A is related to previous version, and the radar currently integrated with JF-17 is not the same version but the latest iteration of KLJ-7A 


Tank131 said:


> If the LKF-601E was ready, why then wasnt it more widely adopted and why has the blk 3 been 4 years of waiting?


As said earlier LKF-601 previous version found inferior to the liquid cool KLJ-7A

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## SQ8

Tank131 said:


> Not sure i buy it. The only reason i hold. Any stock in it is because @SQ8 is the person saying it. But the story still doesnt make a lot of sense. From what i recall, in 2019 they were still deciding between LKF-601E (which was air cooled) and 2 KLJ-7A versions (air and liquid cooled). If LKF-601E was ready for use why would they not have installed it more widely already, and why would they wait on KLJ-7A which by all intents and purposes, the 2 radars had similar performance. If the LKF-601E was ready, why then wasnt it more widely adopted and why has the blk 3 been 4 years of waiting?


Because the LKF is an imperfect solution to a requirement. I use imperfect loosely but its achieves performance in some areas while compromising others which was not the solution being looked for.

The AESA isn’t the only reason why the Blk-3 is delayed- paucity of funds and some reduced for other projects (some of which flopped if others are to believed) - changes in tooling for additional composites and associated infrastructure, EW system upgrades (now akin to a AIDEWS-lite) along with additional features requested to be added/changed based on what India is doing.

The PAF is making sure that push comes to shove if a block-3 does face off without support against a Meteor equipped Rafale it will not be a simple kill for the Rafale but rather block-3s can push the Rafale meteor combo and put them on the defensive. So the J-10C provides the edge over the Rafale/meteor combo but the block-3 can also tackle it.

As information/intelligence is gathered on the Indian Rafale’s capabilities from friends and human intelligence from India - whatever additional changes that do not overbloat the design or require major changes are put in.

It is a game of chicken too to see who blinks and finalizes their new toy - because changes post delivery are a little more difficult than before.

For right now, the PAF still sits pretty when it comes to the ability to replicate results of 2019 with ease and if the unlikely major escalation takes place can extract a heavy toll from the eastern threat.

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## arslank03

HRK said:


> A very logical thing I understand and appreciate it & because of this understanding I posted the probable assumptions in my previous post, just to put on record this thing first came in public domain by one of the official of PAF (I would not point it out who it was), and confirmed by another defence professional independently.
> 
> But again as both the sources were anonymous sources as per public record its better not accept anything on face value.
> 
> Because it was found inferior against the KLJ-7A liquid cool version, though the integration & testing of air cooled versions of both LKF-601& KLJ-7A were reported by chinese and international media at later stage.
> 
> KLJ-7A no official figures of latest version of liquid cool KLJ-7A is available in public domain official performance figures which were available is related to the previous version.
> 
> Even the latest version of aircooled LKF-601 surpass the *first* version of KLJ-7A, so I believe it is logical to assume that the theory of same performance of LKF-601 & KLJ-7A is related to previous version, and the radar currently integrated with JF-17 is not the same version but the latest iteration of KLJ-7A
> 
> As said earlier LKF-601 previous version found inferior to the liquid cool KLJ-7A


the PAF selected the Air cooled version of the KLJ-7A.

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## Sinnerman108

Beast said:


> And you think too highly of Indian. They even have problem flying fighter jet and you think they can destroy PAF on ground in few hours only? I think Indian Air Force even has problem dealing with AF like Nigeria or Angola.




I believe that strike will be executed through stand of weapons, or cruise missiles. 
both PAF and IAF have the same plan of disabling enemy airbases in the first 1 hour of conflict.

Regards.

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## Beast

Sinnerman108 said:


> I believe that strike will be executed through stand of weapons, or cruise missiles.
> both PAF and IAF have the same plan of disabling enemy airbases in the first 1 hour of conflict.
> 
> Regards.


As I say don't give too much credit to India. Their military personnel will be very happy if their cruise missile didn't explode on launch. Hitting the target as plan is bonus for Indians.

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## VkdIndian

SQ8 said:


> additional features requested to be added/changed based on what India is doing.


Really admire PAF for being so nimble and dynamic in its acquisitions.

IAF and the bureaucracy here makes any acquisition such a long drawn process. This kind of dynamic change while the airframes are almost ready (like BK IIIs) are unthinkable here.


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## SQ8

VkdIndian said:


> Really admire PAF for being so nimble and dynamic in its acquisitions.
> 
> IAF and the bureaucracy here makes any acquisition such a long drawn process. This kind of dynamic change while the airframes are almost ready (like BK IIIs) are unthinkable here.


The new IAF leadership apparently is more dynamic and is focusing on bypassing as much of the red tape as possible - using political pressure to get bureaucrats to sign things through.

However, that means unfortunately in some cases they are providing leverage to certain political groups to extract “favors” later in terms of favorable contracts for their constituents or otherwise. 

The Indian ADGE is an example where this fast track process was applied and pretty soon will make any offensive process outside to the PAF lethal (one way missions for the most part if stand off weapons are not used from Pakistan airspace).

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## Princeps Senatus

SQ8 said:


> EW system upgrades (now akin to a AIDEWS-lite)


Integrated right? Not pod based


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## VkdIndian

SQ8 said:


> The new IAF leadership apparently is more dynamic and is focusing on bypassing as much of the red tape as possible - using political pressure to get bureaucrats to sign things through.


When bureaucracy word is used, it is applicable to not just the babus but IAF, HAL, DRDO and many more.
All of them play games to protect the turf.

IAF to a lesser extent but still a part of it. At times when they do try to do good, they are held back due to other players including babus. Tejas started off well but HAL tried to palm off half finished product. IAF resisted it since they knew that they would be stuck with an unfinished product with HAL not making any attempt to improve further. All players worked in own pockets with very less lateral coordination. Why didn’t IAF and HAL work together in the initial stage to iron out all the hiccups? Turf games it was.

JF-17 too had so many issues when it was inducted. But it was PAFs child and they knew that they could make changes as things went along. Which they did. IAF couldn’t do the same with Tejas due to HALs poor track record and IAFs lack of say or control in the matter. This was babudom at its best.

For PAF, they don’t have so many layers to go though to get something. They have complete control over the entire process and that shows.
In Block III case, I am sure they are just holding off and are evaluating to make critical changes in the equipment and they wouldn’t have faced so much trouble in doing it. In India, similar attempt is unlikely to succeed. Political parties would start a shit storm and no government would even try such a thing due to possible backlash.

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## MastanKhan

VkdIndian said:


> When bureaucracy word is used, it is applicable to not just the babus but IAF, HAL, DRDO and many more.
> All of them play games to protect the turf.
> 
> IAF to a lesser extent but still a part of it. At times when they do try to do good, they are held back due to other players including babus. Tejas started off well but HAL tried to palm off half finished product. IAF resisted it since they knew that they would be stuck with an unfinished product with HAL not making any attempt to improve further. All players worked in own pockets with very less lateral coordination. Why didn’t IAF and HAL work together in the initial stage to iron out all the hiccups? Turf games it was.
> 
> JF-17 too had so many issues when it was inducted. But it was PAFs child and they knew that they could make changes as things went along. Which they did. IAF couldn’t do the same with Tejas due to HALs poor track record and IAFs lack of say or control in the matter. This was babudom at its best.
> 
> For PAF, they don’t have so many layers to go though to get something. They have complete control over the entire process and that shows.
> In Block III case, I am sure they are just holding off and are evaluating to make critical changes in the equipment and they wouldn’t have faced so much trouble in doing it. In India, similar attempt is unlikely to succeed. Political parties would start a shit storm and no government would even try such a thing due to possible backlash.


Hi,

Actually the JF17 had very few issues with the aircraft istelf. What was decided up front---pretty much stayed the same---.

Whatever setbacks that happened were due to france cancelling the original EW package deal---.

The engine issue---Paf already knew going in that the chinese engine may not be ready---.

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## VkdIndian

MastanKhan said:


> Actually the JF17 had very few issues with the aircraft istelf. What was decided up front---pretty much stayed the same---.


Yeah.
Actually, the initial requirement and QRs weren’t set too high. When it was inducted it didn’t have night flying capability and many weapons also weren’t integrated. 
Not a bad decision considering various reasons discussed in detail on various threads. 
Incremental upgrades have continued till date and worked well for PAF.
Block III appears to be more than an incremental upgrade and that may be the reason for unexpected delay in its induction.

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## MastanKhan

VkdIndian said:


> Yeah.
> Actually, the initial requirement and QRs weren’t set too high. When it was inducted it didn’t have night flying capability and many weapons also weren’t integrated.
> Not a bad decision considering various reasons discussed in detail on various threads.
> Incremental upgrades have continued till date and worked well for PAF.
> Block III appears to be more than an incremental upgrade and that may be the reason for unexpected delay in its induction.


Hi,

That was the basis of the " Modular Design "----for a stair step progression---.

Progress at a step at a time---.

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## FuturePAF

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That was the basis of the " Modular Design "----for a stair step progression---.
> 
> Progress at a step at a time---.



Any indication that the Block 3 is going to switch to a Chinese engine, considering the Russian supply issue doe to their war? Or have the Russian engines already been secured/delivered?

Btw, when the Russian engines reach the end of their service life (2000-4000 hours), are they rebuild over and over again and operated for the life of the aircraft?

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Deino

Even at the risk I destroy some member's hopes, the alleged spine-equipped "J-10D" is surely for Pakistan! Here it is, the new J-10CY for the "Ba Yi" aerobatics team.

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## iLION12345_1

Deino said:


> Even at the risk I destroy some member's hopes, the alleged spine-equipped "J-10D" is surely for Pakistan! Here it is, the new J-10CY for the "Ba Yi" aerobatics team.
> 
> View attachment 891274


I don’t get it though, they modified an entire platform just for aerobatics? What gives? There has to be more to it than that. How could adding a spine help with aerobatics. If it’s a maneuverability thing, would we not see it on actual fighters first?

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## Deino

iLION12345_1 said:


> I don’t get it though, they modified an entire platform just for aerobatics? What gives? There has to be more to it than that. How could adding a spine help with aerobatics. If it’s a maneuverability thing, would we not see it on actual fighters first?



Actually I don’t know and cannot explain what’s the PLAAF‘s reasoning behind this decision and IMO it has no aerodynamic reason, but most likely only holds a fuel/oil tank for the smoke generator… otherwise the same feature could hold avionics on an operational bird, but here it is indeed unlikely.


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## WaqarAhmed161247

Deino said:


> Actually I don’t know and cannot explain what’s the PLAAF‘s reasoning behind this decision and IMO it has no aerodynamic reason, but most likely only holds a fuel/oil tank for the smoke generator… otherwise the same feature could hold avionics on an operational bird, but here it is indeed unlikely.


When the third batch of j 10c is expected to land in pak sirzameen sir,


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1586981455309279232

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## MastanKhan

iLION12345_1 said:


> I don’t get it though, they modified an entire platform just for aerobatics? What gives? There has to be more to it than that. How could adding a spine help with aerobatics. If it’s a maneuverability thing, would we not see it on actual fighters first?



Hi,

You are correct---why to do so much for aerobatics---.

Regardless we will only know when they tell us---.

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## siegecrossbow

iLION12345_1 said:


> I don’t get it though, they modified an entire platform just for aerobatics? What gives? There has to be more to it than that. How could adding a spine help with aerobatics. If it’s a maneuverability thing, would we not see it on actual fighters first?



Supposedly UAE ordered L-15 because they were impressed by the performance during an air show. I think that AVIC might’ve taken the cue and could be pushing for sales of a new type via Airshow birds. 

Do keep in mind that August 1st planes are not showboat planes only. They can be converted to combat planes at a moments notice and have participated in air patrols before.

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## SQ8

siegecrossbow said:


> Supposedly UAE ordered L-15 because they were impressed by the performance during an air show. I think that AVIC might’ve taken the cue and could be pushing for sales of a new type via Airshow birds.
> 
> Do keep in mind that August 1st planes are not showboat planes only. They can be converted to combat planes at a moments notice and have participated in air patrols before.


It still is a rather odd choice of modification to be relegated to a display team bird. Unless the modification did not yield the results warranted for operational types and was simply decided to not waste the jet.

Yet, the fact that the jet went through this whole thing only to end up straight with the Aug 1st team is a very confusing choice indeed.

It is possible that he bird is intentionally sent to the Aug-1 because CAC has been authorized to sell the J-10c beyond Chinese shores after successful sales to Pakistan and so it may become the J-10 demo bird at international airshows for what may be a J-10CE version.

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## Abid123

Bleek said:


> An arms race is not a good thing, we simply don't have the economy to support such a thing





serenity said:


> You cannot outspend India in an arms race therefore it is not a good idea. But keeping up with Indian new acquisitions by making better value purchases is the least worst path. That's what J-10CE purchase is about. In response to IAF buying Rafale. But why buy over 100 J-10CE?
> 
> If that is the case, may as well convert JF-17 manufacturing resources into making J-10. Do a deal with China and domesticate the J-10 line for as much in house production as possible. More than 100 units of J-10 is basically close to justifying adding those extra costs and getting the platform in house. This also allows China's new J-10 production line to make J-10 for PLAAF which is needed as a number filler fighter for PLAAF.
> 
> The production has moved from Chengdu to Guizhou. Chengdu's production is focused on J-20. But bothering to start a production line with Guizhou Aircraft Corporation means PLAAF is interested in continuing to buy J-10C which means PLAAF has a need for more. 100 units will be too many for China to export to Pakistan without justifying another production line either in China or in Pakistan. The problem is Pakistan would have to shoulder the cost and the only way to make that cost worthwhile is by buying in large numbers. That would take resources away from 5th generation acquisition for Pakistan.
> 
> India also has not purchased anywhere near 100 Rafale. Even if PAF can buy three J-10CE for the price of every Rafale IAF buys (China selling to Pakistan at pretty much same price the PLAAF buys), it is a provocative act which would require India to respond in pure numbers.
> 
> I think PAF orders for J-10 ought to remain under 100 just to keep up with IAF Rafale orders. Maybe 1.5 margin rather than 1:1. Otherwise save up for airforce variant of J-35. Better yet, develop the country. The security with India should be secured via diplomacy, if not possible, deterrence secured through military means which Pakistan has.


Pakistan's firepower will never match India, even with nukes, that's the reality and the difference between our economy and population, but Pakistan's firepower is high enough to increase the enemies lose versus its benefit. 

This is the strategy the Pakistani leadership should choose for deterence while not pressuring the economy.

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## MastanKhan

SQ8 said:


> The PAF is making sure that push comes to shove if a block-3 does face off without support against a Meteor equipped Rafale it will not be a simple kill for the Rafale but rather block-3s can push the Rafale meteor combo and put them on the defensive. So the J-10C provides the edge over the Rafale/meteor combo but the block-3 can also tackle it.
> 
> As information/intelligence is gathered on the Indian Rafale’s capabilities from friends and human intelligence from India - whatever additional changes that do not overbloat the design or require major changes are put in.
> 
> *It is a game of chicken too to see who blinks and finalizes their new toy - because changes post delivery are a little more difficult than before.*
> 
> For right now, the PAF still sits pretty when it comes to the ability to replicate results of 2019 with ease and if the unlikely major escalation takes place can extract a heavy toll from the eastern threat.


Hi,

Thanks for the post. It was so obvious---but many could not understand that.



Abid123 said:


> Pakistan's firepower will never match India, even with nukes, that's the reality and the difference between our economy and population, but Pakistan's firepower is high enough to increase the enemies lose versus its benefit.
> 
> This is the strategy the Pakistani leadership should choose for deterence while not pressuring the economy.


Hi,

Of course it will match---. India has to take care of 2 fronts.

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## Mrc

Have you guys noted the piss poor performance of Russian sukhois in ukerine? 
The same aircraft which makes majority of indian fleet ...

Ukerinians are still flying... They had 60 aircraft at beginning of war. Air defences are still working so are radars . Air fields are operational.

Indians have 60 mirages and 36 Rafael (some yet to be delivered) rest are sukhois and mig 21

Although you should never underestimate the enemy and prepare like there is no tomorrow....but this doesn't look good for iaf

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## SQ8

Princeps Senatus said:


> Integrated right? Not pod based


Both - an integrated suite which can be augmented by a pod based one

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Good morning

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## Abid123

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Of course it will match---. India has to take care of 2 fronts.


I am talking about India vs Pakistan. Not Pakistan and China vs India.


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## MastanKhan

Abid123 said:


> I am talking about India vs Pakistan. Not Pakistan and China vs India.


Hi,

Did you really think I was commenting about something else---?

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## MastanKhan

Mrc said:


> Have you guys noted the piss poor performance of Russian sukhois in ukerine?
> The same aircraft which makes majority of indian fleet ...
> 
> Ukerinians are still flying... They had 60 aircraft at beginning of war. Air defences are still working so are radars . Air fields are operational.
> 
> Indians have 60 mirages and 36 Rafael (some yet to be delivered) rest are sukhois and mig 21
> 
> Although you should never underestimate the enemy and prepare like there is no tomorrow....but this doesn't look good for iaf


Hi,

Well attacking forces have higher casualties than defending if they are on a similar tier of equipment.

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## Ali_Baba

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Good morning
> View attachment 891650



Thanks for the first original new picture of PAF J10CE's since the induction/flyby ceremonies !!!!

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## Mrc

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Well attacking forces have higher casualties than defending if they are on a similar tier of equipment.




Against a nearly non existent Ukrainian airforcr? Which is still flying?


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## MastanKhan

Mrc said:


> Against a nearly non existent Ukrainian airforcr? Which is still flying?



Hi,

Yeah---why not---. Ukraine has superior equipment---.


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## Sinnerman108

Mrc said:


> Have you guys noted the piss poor performance of Russian sukhois in ukerine?
> The same aircraft which makes majority of indian fleet ...
> 
> Ukerinians are still flying... They had 60 aircraft at beginning of war. Air defences are still working so are radars . Air fields are operational.
> 
> Indians have 60 mirages and 36 Rafael (some yet to be delivered) rest are sukhois and mig 21
> 
> Although you should never underestimate the enemy and prepare like there is no tomorrow....but this doesn't look good for iaf



I wouldn't go as far as to term sukhoi piss poor.

It is a capable aircraft , it has it's cons and pros. 

The reason Ukraine is still fighting, is due to poor strategy on part of Russians, 
and clever strategy on part of Ukraine, who are drawing the Russians into an Urban conflict.

If there is one thing you can clearly learn as far as Sukhoi is concerned, is that a high radar foot print aircraft will get defeated very quickly even with a weaker adversary. 

Regards.

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## siegecrossbow

SQ8 said:


> It still is a rather odd choice of modification to be relegated to a display team bird. Unless the modification did not yield the results warranted for operational types and was simply decided to not waste the jet.
> 
> Yet, the fact that the jet went through this whole thing only to end up straight with the Aug 1st team is a very confusing choice indeed.
> 
> It is possible that he bird is intentionally sent to the Aug-1 because CAC has been authorized to sell the J-10c beyond Chinese shores after successful sales to Pakistan and so it may become the J-10 demo bird at international airshows for what may be a J-10CE version.



On a related note, do you think there is any truth to the rumors that Pakistan will acquire an additional 30 J-10?


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Sinnerman108 said:


> If there is one thing you can clearly learn as far as Sukhoi is concerned, is that a high radar foot print aircraft will get defeated very quickly even with a weaker adversary.


The modern air-warfare is boiling down to a fight b/w the engineering teams! So far, the Western oriented teams are far ahead of their Russian counterparts by a wide margin...

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## SQ8

siegecrossbow said:


> On a related note, do you think there is any truth to the rumors that Pakistan will acquire an additional 30 J-10?


There really isn’t a rumor more than a logical choice but it depends upon finances available. Currently the country is in existential jeopardy financially so it would be really odd to use Pakistan funds to get additional J-10s unless the same shameful act of asking China for loans is taken - although at this point I would be surprised if the PAF even has money to pay the interest on any loans taken from China(not that they are expensive or anything but just that any money being there would be surprising)

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1587665144104030209

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## Mrc

Sinnerman108 said:


> I wouldn't go as far as to term sukhoi piss poor.
> 
> It is a capable aircraft , it has it's cons and pros.
> 
> The reason Ukraine is still fighting, is due to poor strategy on part of Russians,
> and clever strategy on part of Ukraine, who are drawing the Russians into an Urban conflict.
> 
> If there is one thing you can clearly learn as far as Sukhoi is concerned, is that a high radar foot print aircraft will get defeated very quickly even with a weaker adversary.
> 
> Regards.




High radar footprint does not go well in 2020s
The reason to develop stealth and semi stealth was simple. Modern missiles are getting difficult to deceive once they lock on 

Point is Russian sukhois have failed to achieve air superiority against a meager airforce of 60 jets in total. The questions needs to be looked at is why









Ukrainian air forces launch 22 strikes on enemy targets – General Staff


Over the past day, Ukraine’s air forces have struck three Russian air defense missile system positions, and artillery units have destroyed an enemy ammunition depot. — Ukrinform.




www.ukrinform.net

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## MastanKhan

Mrc said:


> Against a nearly non existent Ukrainian airforcr? Which is still flying?


Hi,

First BVR missile fired by the SU35 obliterating a ukranian fighter yesterday.

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## MIRauf

Mrc said:


> High radar footprint does not go well in 2020s
> The reason to develop stealth and semi stealth was simple. Modern missiles are getting difficult to deceive once they lock on
> 
> Point is Russian sukhois have failed to achieve air superiority against a meager airforce of 60 jets in total. The questions needs to be looked at is why
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ukrainian air forces launch 22 strikes on enemy targets – General Staff
> 
> 
> Over the past day, Ukraine’s air forces have struck three Russian air defense missile system positions, and artillery units have destroyed an enemy ammunition depot. — Ukrinform.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ukrinform.net


Likely third parties providing EW support / situational awareness, likely also helping keep the meager 60 aircraft going months after months.

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## ghazi52

.,..

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## luciferdd

Mrc said:


> High radar footprint does not go well in 2020s
> The reason to develop stealth and semi stealth was simple. Modern missiles are getting difficult to deceive once they lock on
> 
> Point is Russian sukhois have failed to achieve air superiority against a meager airforce of 60 jets in total. The questions needs to be looked at is why
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ukrainian air forces launch 22 strikes on enemy targets – General Staff
> 
> 
> Over the past day, Ukraine’s air forces have struck three Russian air defense missile system positions, and artillery units have destroyed an enemy ammunition depot. — Ukrinform.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ukrinform.net


Russian Air-Force have only few AEWACS,and most of them are antiques...

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## Tank131

Lets not forget that the Ukrainian forces are backed by satellites which can detect Russian movements, and are also getting regular supplies of radars and weapons from the west. So it isnt that the Russians didn't establish air superiority, they did... But what good is air superiority when the thing you destroyed got replaced by a better western counterparts 2 days later? The Russians fly over Ukraine unimpeded... That is air superiority. Ukrainian fighters arent who did the most damage to russian airforce, its the air defenses (much of which is of newer western stock). Also western supplied artillery and rockets have wreaked havoc on russian army. They are poorly trained and ill equipped because of much of the same issues the plague Pakistan (maybe not so much its military but definitely its society)... Main among the is corruption and nepotism.

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## LKJ86

Via @飞扬军事铁背心 from Weibo

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## MastanKhan

siegecrossbow said:


> On a related note, do you think there is any truth to the rumors that Pakistan will acquire an additional 30 J-10?


Hi,

I am surprised that this question is being asked---.

Modern 4 ---4.5 gen aircraft are extremely training intensive aircraft.

When a pilot switches ovedr from a conventional radar to an aesa radar---he has to *unlearn* how to fight with the conventional radar and learn how to engage with the aesa radar.

Plus with the modern EW package together---here the situational awareness is at a totally different level---.

What that means is that when you commit to a fighter aircraft of this creed----it will have substantial numbers of purchase behind it to justify its induction.

So---the possible number of the J-10C's would be between to 80---96.

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## syed_yusuf

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am surprised that this question is being asked---.
> 
> Modern 4 ---4.5 gen aircraft are extremely training intensive aircraft.
> 
> When a pilot switches ovedr from a conventional radar to an aesa radar---he has to *unlearn* how to fight with the conventional radar and learn how to engage with the aesa radar.
> 
> Plus with the modern EW package together---here the situational awareness is at a totally different level---.
> 
> What that means is that when you commit to a fighter aircraft of this creed----it will have substantial numbers of purchase behind it to justify its induction.
> 
> So---the possible number of the J-10C's would be between to 80---96.



My number estimare is 100 examples by 2026

All made in China

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## PakFactor

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am surprised that this question is being asked---.
> 
> Modern 4 ---4.5 gen aircraft are extremely training intensive aircraft.
> 
> When a pilot switches ovedr from a conventional radar to an aesa radar---he has to *unlearn* how to fight with the conventional radar and learn how to engage with the aesa radar.
> 
> Plus with the modern EW package together---here the situational awareness is at a totally different level---.
> 
> What that means is that when you commit to a fighter aircraft of this creed----it will have substantial numbers of purchase behind it to justify its induction.
> 
> So---the possible number of the J-10C's would be between to 80---96.



From a contact of mine, I hear the number 110+; let's see how quickly we can recover from this flood and other issues to get back on track with this. He mentioned another batch of pilots currently in China as we speak, getting ready for this. So we should be hearing good news soon.

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## Bleek

PakFactor said:


> From a contact of mine, I hear the number 110+; let's see how quickly we can recover from this flood and other issues to get back on track with this. He mentioned another batch of pilots currently in China as we speak, getting ready for this. So we should be hearing good news soon.


So how many block 3 units will be bought if we are getting that many J-10Cs? 

Capped at 50?

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## PakFactor

Bleek said:


> So how many block 3 units will be bought if we are getting that many J-10Cs?
> 
> Capped at 50?



He didn't give an exact figure; he said it's being discussed. However, he mentioned that they could replace *"some" *early batches of Block I with Block III so that we might see more than 50+.

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## MastanKhan

Bleek said:


> So how many block 3 units will be bought if we are getting that many J-10Cs?
> 
> Capped at 50?


Hi,

Possibly---300 to 350 aircraft----for BLK 3 +++ configuration of the JF17 aircraft.

The BLK 3 is headed to take on the Rafale and come out ahead---. There is a surprise in the making---.

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## PakFactor

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Possibly---300 to 350 aircraft----for BLK 3 +++ configuration of the JF17 aircraft.
> 
> The BLK 3 is headed to take on the Rafale and come out ahead---. There is a surprise in the making---.



That's the confusing part; several years back, I heard they would cap the JF-17s at around 250. I hope that's not true, and we push it towards your 300-350 since we do not have to worry about parts, etc., unlike the Western platforms. But, honestly, this platform and J-10C are what we need to bulk on to get that parity with IAF; it would be foolish if we do not; there's enough real estate in Baluchistan and Sindh to establish large joint air bases with Pakistan Navy. Then we should have something in place on a rotating basis to position our planes in Qatar or Bahrain; if the Pakistan Navy gets its air arm, this will give us cover from North and South in the Indian Ocean.

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## Bleek

PakFactor said:


> That's the confusing part; several years back, I heard they would cap the JF-17s at around 250. I hope that's not true, and we push it towards your 300-350 since we do not have to worry about parts, etc., unlike the Western platforms. But, honestly, this platform and J-10C are what we need to bulk on to get that parity with IAF; it would be foolish if we do not; there's enough real estate in Baluchistan and Sindh to establish large joint air bases with Pakistan Navy. Then we should have something in place on a rotating basis to position our planes in Qatar or Bahrain; if the Pakistan Navy gets its air arm, this will give us cover from North and South in the Indian Ocean.


I wish the Navy could get a couple squadrons of the J-16

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## Tank131

Not sure why people keep bringing up Chinese flankers. China almost was unable to buy russian weapons when they ripped off the flanker. They were under a strict agreement not to sell any flankers externally. Short of Russia giving the go-ahead (which is virtually impossible in the current world political climate) the Chinese will never sell a flanker outside china.

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## Ali_Baba

Fighters I


J-11bg




chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com







> appears to have been converted from a 07 batch *J-10C* (#701) powered by an AL-31FN engine and featuring an enlarged and straightened dorsal spine for additional avionics and fuel. This variant appears to have been developed for the PLAAF August 1st Aerobatic Demonstration Team (dubbed J-10CY?) to replace the old *J-10AY/SY*. The aircraft is also fitted with a new holographic HUD and has the twin 23mm guns removed. *The new dorsal spine configuration is expected to be adopted by J-10D as well*.



#LookingForwardToJ10D ....


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## PakFactor

Bleek said:


> I wish the Navy could get a couple squadrons of the J-16



That will not happen due to Russia. However, the JH-7 or something equivalent would be required.


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## mdmm

Honorable Pak-Factor and Mastan Khan sahib.
We overseas should be provided current infor about Pakistanfuture air defence. As now Pakistan has a lot of enemies inside, in west and east.
Could you please provide a reliable news that by the end of 2023, How many of following will Pakistan get,
J-10CE, JF-17 bl3 , latest helicopters ??

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## MastanKhan

mdmm said:


> Honorable Pak-Factor and Mastan Khan sahib.
> We overseas should be provided current infor about Pakistanfuture air defence. As now Pakistan has a lot of enemies inside, in west and east.
> Could you please provide a reliable news that by the end of 2023, How many of following will Pakistan get,
> J-10CE, JF-17 bl3 , latest helicopters ??


Hi,

You must know by now that Paf does not leak out any information about future acquisitions---they show up---we get them.

As JF17 is pretty much our product---our numbers are unlimited---but for the J10's and F16's---we wait till we get them

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## Abid123

Bleek said:


> I wish the Navy could get a couple squadrons of the J-16


Would be a dream to see in the the navy but unfortunately not for export.


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## Abid123

PakFactor said:


> That's the confusing part; several years back, I heard they would cap the JF-17s at around 250. I hope that's not true, and we push it towards your 300-350 since we do not have to worry about parts, etc., unlike the Western platforms. But, honestly, this platform and J-10C are what we need to bulk on to get that parity with IAF; it would be foolish if we do not; there's enough real estate in Baluchistan and Sindh to establish large joint air bases with Pakistan Navy. Then we should have something in place on a rotating basis to position our planes in Qatar or Bahrain; if the Pakistan Navy gets its air arm, this will give us cover from North and South in the Indian Ocean.


I dont think we are looking for more than 200 JF-17 in total.

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## PakFactor

mdmm said:


> Honorable Pak-Factor and Mastan Khan sahib.
> We overseas should be provided current infor about Pakistanfuture air defence. As now Pakistan has a lot of enemies inside, in west and east.
> Could you please provide a reliable news that by the end of 2023, How many of following will Pakistan get,
> J-10CE, JF-17 bl3 , latest helicopters ??



I wish we all knew. But unfortunately, PAF is very compartmentalized; even among the retirees, very few are selected to give input.

Just look at Feb 2019, where PAF surprised us all, even some with deep connections to PAF.

Most of my relatives are Pakistan Army branches, but it's not something to discuss.

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## Scorpiooo

Something is different here

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## Deino

A new image of the PAF J-10CE spotting the green-grey camouflage. Image via @INTELPSF/Twitter











LKJ86 said:


> View attachment 893227
> 
> Via @飞扬军事铁背心 from Weibo




This is still at CAC I assume?

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## RealNapster

PakFactor said:


> That's the confusing part; several years back, I heard they would cap the JF-17s at around 250. I hope that's not true, and we push it towards your 300-350 since we do not have to worry about parts, etc., unlike the Western platforms. But, honestly, this platform and J-10C are what we need to bulk on to get that parity with IAF; it would be foolish if we do not; there's enough real estate in Baluchistan and Sindh to establish large joint air bases with Pakistan Navy. Then we should have something in place on a rotating basis to position our planes in Qatar or Bahrain; if the Pakistan Navy gets its air arm, this will give us cover from North and South in the Indian Ocean.



Better strategy will be to replace all JF-17 block 1 with Block 3. As well as add further 50+ block 3. This way we get 65+- Block 2 and 100 block 3s added with 100 J-10C. Parity is not always achievable strategy though sought after. Many factors included.

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## Princeps Senatus

RealNapster said:


> Better strategy will be to replace all JF-17 block 1 with Block 3. As well as add further 50+ block 3. This way we get 65+- Block 2 and 100 block 3s added with 100 J-10C. Parity is not always achievable strategy though sought after. Many factors included.


Block 1s don't need to be replaced they can just be MLUed

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## MIRauf

If not mistaken, all Block-I were upgraded to Block-II level or are getting the Block-II upgrade as they go through the overhaul. You can add 100 Block-III on top of 100+ ( Block-II 'including block-I upgraded to block-II. ) and still have potent 200+ JF-17 fleet to be the work horse.

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## Abid123

Beast said:


> And you think too highly of Indian. They even have problem flying fighter jet and you think they can destroy PAF on ground in few hours only? I think Indian Air Force even has problem dealing with AF like Nigeria or Angola.


I am not thinking too highly of the IAF. The problem is that certain Pakistani and Chinese members like overestimate themselves while underestimating IAF. 

I actually think about the worst case scenario for the PAF. In terms of skills and professionalism I rate the PAF much higher than the IAF. 

PAF is the only force in the contemporary history that has fought an air battle with a near peer adversary, which happens to be 6 times larger than Pakistan, in a very complex air environment (with force multipliers like AEWC/IFR, 4th generation plus aircraft, BVR missiles, complex air defense systems) and to come out on top. Credit where due.

However the reality is that the IAF is twice the size PAF and has twice the number of 4th generation aircraft. 

Pakistan is a relatively big country,but lacks strategic depth. Pakistan at its widest point is only 500 kms wide and Indian satellites keep 24x7 watch over Pakistan. Most Pakistani air bases are close to the Indian border meaning they are vulnerable to Indian cruise missiles/ballistic missiles as well as IAF fighter aircraft. 

Pakistan needs airbases in Afghanistan or build mountain airbases like China and North Korea have done.

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## Windjammer



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## Deino

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 894749




I heard similar rumours too ...

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## Tipu7

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Possibly---300 to 350 aircraft----for BLK 3 +++ configuration of the JF17 aircraft.
> 
> The BLK 3 is headed to take on the Rafale and come out ahead---. There is a surprise in the making---.


That's not how plans are folding in reality. PAF is now more inclined towards J-10CE than Jf-17C/D.
Jf17 is almost reaching the requisite figure needed within air force.

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## Mrc

Tipu7 said:


> That's not how plans are folding in reality. PAF is now more inclined towards J-10CE than Jf-17C/D.
> Jf17 is almost reaching the requisite figure needed within air force.




Why not to replace 200 plus mirages with jf and place them in storage reserves


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## Irfan Baloch

Abid123 said:


> Pakistan needs airbases in Afghanistan or build mountain airbases like China and North Korea


no. please don't



Tipu7 said:


> That's not how plans are folding in reality. PAF is now more inclined towards J-10CE than Jf-17C/D.
> Jf17 is almost reaching the requisite figure needed within air force.


why you say that?
explain.. oh because we got 12 J10?

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## siegecrossbow

Any chance of them coming to Shaheen IX if we hold it this year?


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## MastanKhan

Tipu7 said:


> That's not how plans are folding in reality. PAF is now more inclined towards J-10CE than Jf-17C/D.
> Jf17 is almost reaching the requisite figure needed within air force.


Hi,

I don't disagree with that---.

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## Bleek

Irfan Baloch said:


> no. please don't


Why? 😂



Tipu7 said:


> That's not how plans are folding in reality. PAF is now more inclined towards J-10CE than Jf-17C/D.
> Jf17 is almost reaching the requisite figure needed within air force.


How many units is that approximately?


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## SQ8

Irfan Baloch said:


> no. please don't
> 
> 
> why you say that?
> explain.. oh because we got 12 J10?


Each platform was brought in for a particular use case and the one for the JF-17 has been fulfilled. The J-10CE is in a way the PAF’s initial vision of what it thought the J-10 could have when it first looked at it back in 2001-2. 
Some of the leeway with the JF-17 is being experienced on the J-10C as well including being able to add in house weapons. Might even see it end up with a rebuild factory at Kamra. 

Part of the switch might even be the access to the powerplant similar to the access with RD-93.

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## Bleek

SQ8 said:


> Each platform was brought in for a particular use case and the one for the JF-17 has been fulfilled. The J-10CE is in a way the PAF’s initial vision of what it thought the J-10 could have when it first looked at it back in 2001-2.
> Some of the leeway with the JF-17 is being experienced on the J-10C as well including being able to add in house weapons. Might even see it end up with a rebuild factory at Kamra.
> 
> Part of the switch might even be the access to the powerplant similar to the access with RD-93.


Any further news on the future 5th gen platform and project Azm?


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## SQ8

Bleek said:


> Any further news on the future 5th gen platform and project Azm?


Dead in the water(other than people showing up for chai samosas) as far as the dots connect from all channels.

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## Bleek

SQ8 said:


> Dead in the water(other than people showing up for chai samosas) as far as the dots connect from all channels.


Is the TFX with WS-10/15 engines a viable option?

Although I think in the end we'll be going for a variant of the J-35


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## Abid123

Irfan Baloch said:


> no. please don't


Why not? So you would rather park a 50 million USD fighter out in the open where a swarm of cheap suicide drones could take it out? 

Taiwan has one of the biggest underground airbases in the world. North Korea and China also have underground/mountain airbases. It’s a valid tactic against a superior opponent.

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## Irfan Baloch

SQ8 said:


> Each platform was brought in for a particular use case and the one for the JF-17 has been fulfilled. The J-10CE is in a way the PAF’s initial vision of what it thought the J-10 could have when it first looked at it back in 2001-2.
> Some of the leeway with the JF-17 is being experienced on the J-10C as well including being able to add in house weapons. Might even see it end up with a rebuild factory at Kamra.
> 
> Part of the switch might even be the access to the powerplant similar to the access with RD-93.


my post was in response to the suggestion that J-10 replaces the role of JF1-7. in my view they are of two different categories.
that said if the knowledge gained from JF-17 evolution can be applied to Pakistani J-10 version then that's great. 

have you seen mixed reality setups related to flight simulations? they are an interesting concept great for both commercial and military training.

this one is commercial and very impressive





this is military grade and based on F-16s





this one is a private setup but great work by that enthusiast 






if the first two can be combined then they can serve as great training and entertainment platform (for high end rich boys) . only thing missing is the G force sensation and sudden tilts might produce limited 1 or 2 Gs .

wondering if PAF has similar setup





now think of combining the first two setups with this one. centrifugal spinning capsule with a 360 gyro mixed with a VR setup where human hand interaction with physical controls like stick and buttons.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bleek said:


> Is the TFX with WS-10/15 engines a viable option?
> 
> Although I think in the end we'll be going for a variant of the J-35


If the PAF wants MMU/TFX, it'd wait for the TR Motor engines. In the mean time, it can build out the J-10CE fleet.

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## Abramar

RealNapster said:


> Better strategy will be to replace all JF-17 block 1 with Block 3. As well as add further 50+ block 3. This way we get 65+- Block 2 and 100 block 3s added with 100 J-10C. Parity is not always achievable strategy though sought after. Many factors included.


It has to be seen if this is the most cost effective strategy, with how long the Block 3 is taking, it might be a possibility that the PAF has put a higher priority on J-10 acquisition, this is not to say that the Block 3 is not going to happen, but I am starting to have doubts whether PAF will go through the cost of modernizing the older blocks. They may not be cutting edge, but we already know they are more than capable.


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## SQ8

Bleek said:


> Is the TFX with WS-10/15 engines a viable option?
> 
> Although I think in the end we'll be going for a variant of the J-35


No - TFX is likely going to be either Eurojet or F-100 with a rare possibility of something from Motor-Sich later. 

There may be elements of TFX Pakistan might take into a FC-31P



Irfan Baloch said:


> my post was in response to the suggestion that J-10 replaces the role of JF1-7. in my view they are of two different categories.
> that said if the knowledge gained from JF-17 evolution can be applied to Pakistani J-10 version then that's great.
> 
> have you seen mixed reality setups related to flight simulations? they are an interesting concept great for both commercial and military training.
> 
> *this one is commercial and very impressive*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this is military grade and based on F-16s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this one is a private setup but great work by that enthusiast
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if the first two can be combined then they can serve as great training and entertainment platform (for high end rich boys) . only thing missing is the G force sensation and sudden tilts might produce limited 1 or 2 Gs .
> 
> wondering if PAF has similar setup
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> now think of combining the first two setups with this one. centrifugal spinning capsule with a 360 gyro mixed with a VR setup where human hand interaction with physical controls like stick and buttons.


A local group makes these in Pakistan for the PAF… it is now implemented for Mirages and F-7s.. but it is still VR view overall.

No motion simulator yet - as mentioned earlier PAF wants AR - so basically the physical cockpit coupled with the ability to switch to actual cockpit when looking below the frame.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> No - TFX is likely going to be either Eurojet or F-100 with a rare possibility of something from Motor-Sich later.
> 
> There may be elements of TFX Pakistan might take into a FC-31P
> 
> 
> A local group makes these in Pakistan for the PAF… it is now implemented for Mirages and F-7s.. but it is still VR view overall.
> 
> No motion simulator yet - as mentioned earlier PAF wants AR - so basically the physical cockpit coupled with the ability to switch to actual cockpit when looking below the frame.


tbh I'd keep a close eye on Baykar Group. They're working on a twin-engine version of their Kizilelma UCAV. I think, at that point, you're entering manned fighter territory from a design complexity standpoint. This wouldn't be surprising either. Turkey lost out on the F-35B, but it still wants a complete maritime air warfare capability consisting of a manned fighter. TAI's doing some experimental stuff with the Hurjet, but I doubt that the Hurjet as-is would meet Turkey's needs.

I feel that Baykar Group could stealthily be working on a manned medium-weight fighter. I've taken some long shots before, e.g., seeing VLS on the PN MILGEM (done), pursuing a 3,000-ton-ish frigate (Jinnah-class), and an original LRMPA like Swordfish (Sea Sultan). But there were some signs pointing towards those outcomes. I see similar signs with Baykar Group working on its own manned fighter -- and, hear me out, I think the PAF could already be involved.

There's silence about AZM, but I don't think the energy for an original NGFA has gone away. Except now, I think the PAF could be directing it towards another original project, but with a capable partner with similar goals. The successor of the JF-17 could very well be in the works... but in the offices of a private Turkish company.

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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh I'd keep a close eye on Baykar Group. They're working on a twin-engine version of their Kizilelma UCAV. I think, at that point, you're entering manned fighter territory from a design complexity standpoint. This wouldn't be surprising either. Turkey lost out on the F-35B, but it still wants a complete maritime air warfare capability consisting of a manned fighter. TAI's doing some experimental stuff with the Hurjet, but I doubt that the Hurjet as-is would meet Turkey's needs.
> 
> I feel that Baykar Group could stealthily be working on a manned medium-weight fighter. I've taken some long shots before, e.g., seeing VLS on the PN MILGEM (done), pursuing a 3,000-ton-ish frigate (Jinnah-class), and an original LRMPA like Swordfish (Sea Sultan). But there were some signs pointing towards those outcomes. I see similar signs with Baykar Group working on its own manned fighter -- and, hear me out, I think the PAF could already be involved.
> 
> There's silence about AZM, but I don't think the energy for an original NGFA has gone away. Except now, I think the PAF could be directing it towards another original project, but with a capable partner with similar goals. The successor of the JF-17 could very well be in the works... but in the offices of a private Turkish company.


I think for this to work you would need a Baykar Pakistan subsidiary otherwise it would have to have a partnership with PAC. Irrespective, if Pakistan is playing a role, it will need some amount of the IP pie (even if the work is turkish, some of the money is Pakistani).


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh I'd keep a close eye on Baykar Group. They're working on a twin-engine version of their Kizilelma UCAV. I think, at that point, you're entering manned fighter territory from a design complexity standpoint. This wouldn't be surprising either. Turkey lost out on the F-35B, but it still wants a complete maritime air warfare capability consisting of a manned fighter. TAI's doing some experimental stuff with the Hurjet, but I doubt that the Hurjet as-is would meet Turkey's needs.
> 
> I feel that Baykar Group could stealthily be working on a manned medium-weight fighter. I've taken some long shots before, e.g., seeing VLS on the PN MILGEM (done), pursuing a 3,000-ton-ish frigate (Jinnah-class), and an original LRMPA like Swordfish (Sea Sultan). But there were some signs pointing towards those outcomes. I see similar signs with Baykar Group working on its own manned fighter -- and, hear me out, I think the PAF could already be involved.
> 
> There's silence about AZM, but I don't think the energy for an original NGFA has gone away. Except now, I think the PAF could be directing it towards another original project, but with a capable partner with similar goals. The successor of the JF-17 could very well be in the works... but in the offices of a private Turkish company.


Kale Group CEO yesterday said they're ready to working on TF-X engine as a JV with RR. The copyright will be owned by Kale. The final version of the proposal has been submitted to the Turkish Defense Industry secretariat. They're waiting for the go-ahead....

As for the TEI CEO (10 days ago), engineers are working on TF-X engine. As a first step - true engineering development progresses linearly - 6k lb thrust military-grade turbo-fan mock-up is shown. It can easily be graded up to 10k lb one with additional stages at the exhaust. The last leg is the F-22 grade engine.....

At the end of the day it's the_ Iman_ and _Ihlas _enveloping the constant _Mujadele _with the_ Sabr _and_ Shukr _to earn the _Riza_ and _Bereket _from HIM. The rest are all_ Fasa Fiso_ like Bajwas, Sherifs, Zardaris etc....

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## Beast

Abid123 said:


> I am not thinking too highly of the IAF. The problem is that certain Pakistani and Chinese members like overestimate themselves while underestimating IAF.
> 
> I actually think about the worst case scenario for the PAF. In terms of skills and professionalism I rate the PAF much higher than the IAF.
> 
> PAF is the only force in the contemporary history that has fought an air battle with a near peer adversary, which happens to be 6 times larger than Pakistan, in a very complex air environment (with force multipliers like AEWC/IFR, 4th generation plus aircraft, BVR missiles, complex air defense systems) and to come out on top. Credit where due.
> 
> However the reality is that the IAF is twice the size PAF and has twice the number of 4th generation aircraft.
> 
> Pakistan is a relatively big country,but lacks strategic depth. Pakistan at its widest point is only 500 kms wide and Indian satellites keep 24x7 watch over Pakistan. Most Pakistani air bases are close to the Indian border meaning they are vulnerable to Indian cruise missiles/ballistic missiles as well as IAF fighter aircraft.
> 
> Pakistan needs airbases in Afghanistan or build mountain airbases like China and North Korea have done.


It's more of those troll who overestimated Indian AF. Remember some Pakistanis even worry about the so called over rated BARS radar of MKI and indian even claim world best in Asia. And guess what magic of work in LOC 27th Feb air war?

And the enemies of China constantly trying to underestimate. See the amount of trash video and article produced by those bias troll who always talk down China technology. As if those things are zero tested. Those things do go thru real life simulation and vigorous testing that is no much different in real war situation. In fact some of the situation is over complicated than the real life they will encounter which makes the system robust and proven.

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## siegecrossbow

Beast said:


> It's more of those troll who overestimated Indian AF. Remember some Pakistanis even worry about the so called over rated BARS radar of MKI and indian even claim world best in Asia. And guess what magic of work in LOC 27th Feb air war?
> 
> And the enemies of China constantly trying to underestimate. See the amount of trash video and article produced by those bias troll who always talk down China technology. As if those things are zero tested. Those things do go thru real life simulation and vigorous testing that is no much different in real war situation. In fact some of the situation is over complicated than the real life they will encounter which makes the system robust and proven.



When more things like this happens, their minds will change eventually.

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## Beast

siegecrossbow said:


> When more things like this happens, their minds will change eventually.
> 
> View attachment 894855


China weapon don't tested well and unproven...

Then how did the HJ-8 ATGM work magic in Bosnia war taking forn Serbia tank? Or WL-1 UCAV taking down ISIS position in Iraqi war against terrorist while still return to base unhurt?

Or Pakistan or other armed forces who import Chinese arms don't do their own evaluation and purely taken by Chinese salesman words while import blindly?

Those evaluation put thru rigorously testing , tested against real life jamming and and same training combat scenario of continuous hours of combat sorties and drop the real life explosive PGM against targets. Fire BVRAAM at simulated targets with intense ECM imposed by simulated foes no different from war.

Precisely why PAF imported the J-10CE.

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## renhai

SQ8 said:


> No - TFX is likely going to be either Eurojet or F-100 with a rare possibility of something from Motor-Sich later.
> 
> There may be elements of TFX Pakistan might take into a FC-31P
> 
> 
> A local group makes these in Pakistan for the PAF… it is now implemented for Mirages and F-7s.. but it is still VR view overall.
> 
> No motion simulator yet - as mentioned earlier PAF wants AR - so basically the physical cockpit coupled with the ability to switch to actual cockpit when looking below the frame.


real?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500044884090130436

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493574087859326983


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## SQ8

renhai said:


> real?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500044884090130436
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493574087859326983


F-100 was a front runner due to commonality with the F-16. The GE motor is also a front runner for the same reason because TuAF is familiar with the cores of both engines.

The XF-9 is an unknown quantity to me. 
The AL-31 is very unlikely especially after Ukraine conflict.

I find the WS-10 unlikely as well - although it is possible that if Turkey designs a jet for Pakistan that may come with it - maybe a long derivative of TFx but not TFX itself.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> F-100 was a front runner due to commonality with the F-16. The GE motor is also a front runner for the same reason because TuAF is familiar with the cores of both engines.
> 
> The XF-9 is an unknown quantity to me.
> The AL-31 is very unlikely especially after Ukraine conflict.
> 
> I find the WS-10 unlikely as well - although it is possible that if Turkey designs a jet for Pakistan that may come with it - maybe a long derivative of TFx but not TFX itself.


Yep, and it's worth remembering the Turkish Navy wanted the F-35B. So, there's an avenue for another fighter. However, it wouldn't surprise me if this ends up being a private sector project led by Baykar Group. They're taking point on developing air warfare solutions for the Turkish Navy, e.g., UAVs and UCAVs. 

So, this work may evolve into a full-out NGFA. However, doing it for just 2-3 squadrons in the Turkish Navy isn't economical, so a large-scale requirement from either the Turkish Air Force or an outsider (e.g., the PAF) would be key.

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## Irfan Baloch

SQ8 said:


> Dead in the water(other than people showing up for chai samosas) as far as the dots connect from all channels.


the veterans must be proud for scaring and bullying away all talent. now they will have all the exclusive offices to themselves and the office runners to lash out.

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## SQ8

Irfan Baloch said:


> the veterans must be proud for scaring and bullying away all talent. now they will have all the exclusive offices to themselves and the office runners to lash out.


Yup
Will get a medal for putting out CAD drawings and signing a MoU here and there.
Tamgha e imtiaz (and associated plot) is guaranteed

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## Windjammer



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Closeup Shot of Beauty J10C

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

J-10CP omnirole fighters, assigned to the 33rd Tactical Wing’s No. 15 ‘Cobras’ Squadron of the Northern Air Command PAF, taxiing at PAF Base Minhas in Kamra after returning from a training sortie.

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## Abid123

Bleek said:


> Why? 😂


Because increasing the survivability of the PAF is wrong. We should leave them vulnerable to first strike by the enemies


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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

Deleted .....
Wrong thread.


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## syed_yusuf

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 895257


this picture seems fake ... why -- look at the location of the EOTS


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## siegecrossbow

syed_yusuf said:


> this picture seems fake ... why -- look at the location of the EOTS



It could just be mirrored.


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## Super Falcon

J 10 with PL 15 Is emerged as a front line for paf

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## syed_yusuf

siegecrossbow said:


> It could just be mirrored.


cannot be, look at the location of IFR


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## My-Analogous

True?


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Claude Suen




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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Gripen9

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 896332


Not PAF

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## HarisMalik

The J10C actually looks beautiful in camo.
Ripped from PAF's 2023 Calendar. featured on the first month's page.

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## TopGun786

HarisMalik said:


> The J10C actually looks beautiful in camo.
> Ripped from PAF's 2023 Calendar. featured on the first month's page.


Does it mean at least 13 aircrafts have been delivered?


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## HarisMalik

TopGun786 said:


> Does it mean at least 13 aircrafts have been delivered?


hehe


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## Sinnerman108

TopGun786 said:


> Does it mean at least 13 aircrafts have been delivered?



It is PAF strategy to keep everyone guessing ... 
until the americans step in, no one would know the precise numbers and condition except for PAF.

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## mdmm

Regarding J-10 CE for Pakistan,
In future will the maintenance, overhaulling, repairs will be done in Pakistan and is this J-10c capable of carrying nuclear arms too , ??
Some websites are claiming that PAF has ordered total of 70 J-10CE ÉÉ
Please reply.


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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## sneakerspark

TopGun786 said:


> Does it mean at least 13 aircrafts have been delivered?


It could be +1 or -1 😁


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## ghazi52

,.,.,.
PAF unveiled its latest tactical camo for its J-10C in its official Calendar for 2023 at IDEAS 2022 .
The Camo is a dedication to legendary Mirage Fighter of PAF & a show of force that no air superiority camo is required for J-10C due to its unmatched BVR capability in the region...

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## ghazi52

Historic picture,,, Welcome !

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## ghazi52

,..,

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Bleek

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.,.
> PAF unveiled its latest tactical camo for its J-10C in its official Calendar for 2023 at IDEAS 2022 .
> The Camo is a dedication to legendary Mirage Fighter of PAF & a show of force that no air superiority camo is required for J-10C due to its unmatched BVR capability in the region...
> 
> View attachment 896825


Regular camo looks better

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## Ali_Baba

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.,.
> PAF unveiled its latest tactical camo for its J-10C in its official Calendar for 2023 at IDEAS 2022 .
> The Camo is a dedication to legendary Mirage Fighter of PAF & a show of force that no air superiority camo is required for J-10C due to its unmatched BVR capability in the region...
> 
> View attachment 896825



The prettiest picture of the PAF J10CE so far i reckon... colours work on that beauty...

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## Deino

And another green-grey PAF J-10CE, this time 22-119.

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## Gripen9

Deino said:


> And another green-grey PAF J-10CE, this time 22-119.
> 
> View attachment 896936


Does this mean, another squadron with deep strike/interdiction role?


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## Ghessan

Deino said:


> And another green-grey PAF J-10CE, this time 22-119.
> 
> View attachment 896936



it seems something is wrong. first it was 113 and then 119 7th air craft with this camo? 

what does it mean?

besides number 119 looks doubtful/photoshop on air craft.


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## Reichmarshal

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> View attachment 896721


This pattern looks more like acm sidhu wish then any thing else....as in today's world its pretty much useless

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## TopGun786

Deino said:


> And another green-grey PAF J-10CE, this time 22-119.
> 
> View attachment 896936


This must be the same image that you posted a few weeks ago but the serial number was much blurred. I wonder how many jets have been ready for PAF up till now?

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## Dazzler

PAF J10C in Tactical Camouflage Flying Somewhere in Pakistan | PAF J10C in Tactical Camouflage Flying Somewhere in Pakistan | By International Defence Analysis | Facebook


2.2K views, 138 likes, 37 loves, 12 comments, 10 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from International Defence Analysis: PAF J10C in Tactical Camouflage Flying Somewhere in Pakistan




fb.watch

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## Riz



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## Sinnerman108

Dazzler said:


> PAF J10C in Tactical Camouflage Flying Somewhere in Pakistan | PAF J10C in Tactical Camouflage Flying Somewhere in Pakistan | By International Defence Analysis | Facebook
> 
> 
> 2.2K views, 138 likes, 37 loves, 12 comments, 10 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from International Defence Analysis: PAF J10C in Tactical Camouflage Flying Somewhere in Pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fb.watch



Those trees look very much like Kamra.

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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Deino



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## Rashid Mahmood

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,
> View attachment 897076


If the Grey is a bit darker, it would be perfect.
Just like the Mirages.

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## alimobin memon

Regular camo is better.

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## Deino

I would love to see the original image!  (Image by Jibran Noor)

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## Cool_Soldier

Still no information about how many units of J10 c have been inducted in PAF.
JF 17 C production started back in Jan 2021 , I guess and still no clear information about inducted units.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593130742741368832

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## ghazi52

,..,,.

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## syed_yusuf

ghazi52 said:


> ,..,,.
> View attachment 897649


i like this pain job ... i think all of j10 should have this in PAF


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE




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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Avicenna

Rashid Mahmood said:


> If the Grey is a bit darker, it would be perfect.
> Just like the Mirages.
> 
> View attachment 897568
> View attachment 897566



The Mirage camo is a work of art.

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## Ali_Baba

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593130742741368832



Looks like someone is practising a new J10CE display routine for us all..


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## Ghessan

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 897762



i don't know why but it looks photoshop to me but it is mentioned with credits to photographer


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

JF-17B (Bravo) & J-10C with Dual ejector racks

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## MastanKhan

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> JF-17B (Bravo) & J-10C with Dual ejector racks
> 
> View attachment 898004


Hi,

These dual racks will be causing some serious heartburns somewhere---.

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## maverick1977

Pakistan will get 4-6 squadrons minimum


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Deino

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> New batch
> View attachment 898465




Oh come on! Not only you constantly post images again just a few posts after they were originally posted but even more you are once again posting faked images!

Really? Is it only for the numbers count posting whatever it is as long as it is a new post??

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Deino said:


> Oh come on! Not only you constantly post images again just a few posts after they were originally posted but even more you are once again posting faked images!
> 
> Really? Is it only for the numbers count posting whatever it is as long as it is a new post??


Sorry I have deleted that post, an error on my part. Sometimes I skip looking at previous pages. Noticed some other folks commit the same error. Regarding fake images, I normally take them from reputed accounts, not deliberately on my part.


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## Sinnerman108

Deino said:


> Oh come on! Not only you constantly post images again just a few posts after they were originally posted but even more you are once again posting faked images!
> 
> Really? Is it only for the numbers count posting whatever it is as long as it is a new post??



you saw his name right ?

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## mdmm

I learned from airforce people that PAC and CAC have built JF-17 Block 3 to combat/fight Rafale jet fighter at all levels , practically .

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## GriffinsRule

Deino said:


> Oh come on! Not only you constantly post images again just a few posts after they were originally posted but even more you are once again posting faked images!
> 
> Really? Is it only for the numbers count posting whatever it is as long as it is a new post??


Nothing to do with the PAF. His objective is to garner support and gain some respect from others. Its a pointless endeavor though, for he lacks even self respect

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## Deino

So far best image of the two green-grey dragons …

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## Ali_Baba

Deino said:


> So far best image of the two green-grey dragons …
> 
> View attachment 898682



I am looking forward to seeing the full unwatermarked high resolution version of this picture because it will become my new wallpaper when it turns up !

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## Irfan Baloch

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 895169


love this color scheme so much.
no disrespect to that camouflage tactical one like the A-5s and mirages but this is my preference



mdmm said:


> Regarding J-10 CE for Pakistan,
> In future will the maintenance, overhaulling, repairs will be done in Pakistan and is this J-10c capable of carrying nuclear arms too , ??
> Some websites are claiming that PAF has ordered total of 70 J-10CE ÉÉ
> Please reply.


no , we dont want to tell you because you will go and tell Indians.
its a secret

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## SQ8

Irfan Baloch said:


> love this color scheme so much.
> no disrespect to that camouflage tactical one like the A-5s and mirages but this is my preference
> 
> 
> no , we dont want to tell you because you will go and tell Indians.
> its a secret


Then they will have to spend another $90 million per jet to buy even more advanced Rafales beyond F4 which they will fund Dassault to do (and the French ADA will freeload on it) and end up spending $10 billion for the next 30 Rafales.

The poor Tejas Mk.1A will sit on the trailer for another few years because Dassault cleared out the IAF coffer.

Meanwhile, the PAF will get the requisite number of J-10Cs and do a bit of Block-II upgrades to counter it at 1/10th of that cost and be done with it.

All because MMRCA was overstretched and the French have got India by the proverbial balls on pricing. Lesson in why bureaucracy and hyperbloating egos in IAF leadership are never a good combo.

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## GriffinsRule

Deino said:


> So far best image of the two green-grey dragons …
> 
> View attachment 898682


The one in the back seems to be 22-114


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## FuturePAF

Any indication PAF’s acquisition of the J-10 (and satisfaction with the WS-10 engine) and its display at Zhuhai and Ideas-2022 has drawn serious attention from GCC countries? Only last year the UAE indicated it may want to join the Su-75 project, and provide funding for its development. A J-10 that is custom build for these countries may employ all the latest export approved technologies and earn the Chinese industry not only a healthy profit but funding for further development of the design, akin to the Rafales or Eurofighters. 

The acquisition of a Chinese platform and the weapons eco-system would be a political and strategic game changer, so they may be reluctant to make that move. But on the other hand, The threat of the Saudis being cutoff from arm supplies by some of their current suppliers may have changed the dynamic.

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## IblinI

FuturePAF said:


> Any indication PAF’s acquisition of the J-10 (and satisfaction with the WS-10 engine) and its display at Zhuhai and Ideas-2022 has drawn serious attention from GCC countries? Only last year the UAE indicated it may want to join the Su-75 project, and provide funding for its development. A J-10 that is custom build for these countries may employ all the latest export approved technologies and earn the Chinese industry not only a healthy profit but funding for further development of the design, akin to the Rafales or Eurofighters.
> 
> The acquisition of a Chinese platform and the weapons eco-system would be a political and strategic game changer, so they may be reluctant to make that move. But on the other hand, The threat of the Saudis being cutoff from arm supplies by some of their current suppliers may have changed the dynamic.


it maybe not be the case on J10 but J35, they have enough fourth gen fighters.


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## Reichmarshal

SQ8 said:


> Then they will have to spend another $90 million per jet to buy even more advanced Rafales beyond F4 which they will fund Dassault to do (and the French ADA will freeload on it) and end up spending $10 billion for the next 30 Rafales.
> 
> The poor Tejas Mk.1A will sit on the trailer for another few years because Dassault cleared out the IAF coffer.
> 
> Meanwhile, the PAF will get the requisite number of J-10Cs and do a bit of Block-II upgrades to counter it at 1/10th of that cost and be done with it.
> 
> All because MMRCA was overstretched and the French have got India by the proverbial balls on pricing. Lesson in why bureaucracy and hyperbloating egos in IAF leadership are never a good combo.


They will the American route


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## SQ8

Reichmarshal said:


> They will the American route


Not the IAF
They threw in their chips with the heavy, massive rcs elephant that is the mki, then with the ridiculously expensive Rafale and will look desperate not fulfilling their commitment to the Tejas.

Their best bet is to throw in the towel and go all in on the F-35. That will grant them the permanent edge over PAF

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## CivilianSupremacy

SQ8 said:


> Not the IAF
> They threw in their chips with the heavy, massive rcs elephant that is the mki, then with the ridiculously expensive Rafale and will look desperate not fulfilling their commitment to the Tejas.
> 
> Their best bet is to throw in the towel and go all in on the F-35. That will grant them the permanent edge over PAF



True - I think Indians would have already discussed F-35s but US would want so much in return. Complete end to russian weapon systems of all kind. Maybe they even ask for suspension of trade with Russia. These kind of things which India won't accept. India normally don't do agreements which restrict it's freedom in anyway.

However, F-16 block 70 (rebranded as F-21 for india) as their MMRCA contract could really become reality. If gone ahead they surely will receive AMRAAMs 120-D the latest variant. Lockheed already agrees to setting up assembly & manufacturing plant in india. 

I see J-10C numbers will go up from initial order of 25 to 100+ only if IAF finalize its MMRCA.


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## FuturePAF

IblinI said:


> it maybe not be the case on J10 but J35, they have enough fourth gen fighters.


I understand the FC-31/J-31 is approved for export, but seeing the J-35 right around the corner, will the GCC wait for the PLAAF/PLANAF needs to be met before being able to buy the J-35.

The second more pressing issue is supply of weapons. If the Saudis are cut off from supplies for their F-15s and possibly other western suppliers, will they try to acquire a tried and tested platform like the J-10, and have a reliable supply of weapons and spares?


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## siegecrossbow

SQ8 said:


> Not the IAF
> They threw in their chips with the heavy, massive rcs elephant that is the mki, then with the ridiculously expensive Rafale and will look desperate not fulfilling their commitment to the Tejas.
> 
> Their best bet is to throw in the towel and go all in on the F-35. That will grant them the permanent edge over PAF



While the F-35 is the best technical option the political baggage associated is too large. They are pretty much signing away their sovereignty by doing so. Based on what the South Koreans leaked they didn't have permission to use a lot of the plane's features unless they got the direct OK from Lockheed.

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## Abid123

FuturePAF said:


> I understand the FC-31/J-31 is approved for export, but seeing the J-35 right around the corner, will the GCC wait for the PLAAF/PLANAF needs to be met before being able to buy the J-35.
> 
> The second more pressing issue is supply of weapons. If the Saudis are cut off from supplies for their F-15s and possibly other western suppliers, will they try to acquire a tried and tested platform like the J-10, and have a reliable supply of weapons and spares?


Saudis will most likely buy the J-31/J-35 once it is for export.









FC-31 stealth fighter spearheads display of cutting-edge Chinese equipment at Saudi Arabia's 1st World Defense Show - Global Times







www.globaltimes.cn

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## Chandragupt Maurya

What is the RCS of J10c and the range of radars because in BVR fight that’s the most important thing next comes the manoeuvrability to dodge incoming missiles


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## ghazi52

Any update for Pakistan acquisition of this system..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1594326356833075201


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## Tempest II

Hi Good people, 

I am struggling to find Information on the J-10CE radar and IRST specifications.

Please help with the whatever available specifications or the generally accepted specifications


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## Chandragupt Maurya

Tempest II said:


> Hi Good people,
> 
> I am struggling to find Information on the J-10CE radar and IRST specifications.
> 
> Please help with the whatever available specifications or the generally accepted specifications


I want J10c to be compared with Tejas MK1A and MK2 which Indian airforce is procuring in huge numbers rafales are only 36 in number and I don’t think IAF will procure anymore
But Jf17 and J10c will become The mainstay of Pakistan airforce while the Tejas (mk1 and mk2) and Su30mki will be the mainstay of Indian airforce (in foreseeable future) apart from that an interesting news is coming from India that now su30mki will use the indian made UTTAM AESA radar it’s the same radar which India has developed to be used in Tejas MK1A and MK2 but scaled up to take the advantage of big nose cone of Su30MKI


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## MastanKhan

Tempest II said:


> Hi Good people,
> 
> I am struggling to find Information on the J-10CE radar and IRST specifications.
> 
> Please help with the whatever available specifications or the generally accepted specifications


Hi,

You are not the only one---. Majority is in the same boat as you are---.

No information has been leaked out yet---.



ghazi52 said:


> *Any update for Pakistan acquisition of this system*..
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1594326356833075201


Hi,

We already have one in place---the Illyushin ( corrected )---.

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## siegecrossbow

Tempest II said:


> Hi Good people,
> 
> I am struggling to find Information on the J-10CE radar and IRST specifications.
> 
> Please help with the whatever available specifications or the generally accepted specifications



Because there is none publicly available.

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## White privilege

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> We already have one in place---the Antonov---.


Did you mean---- the *Ilyushin *??

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## syed_yusuf

J10c/p is a master stroke purchase of PAF

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## MajesticPug

ghazi52 said:


> Any update for Pakistan acquisition of this system..
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1594326356833075201



J10 could develop into a form of loyal wingman fighting system such that a J10S and 2 to 3 wingman UAV could carry extra weapon loads and detection range. We have seen two-seater J10S and why not the loyal wingman UAVs.  This could be a great addition to the PAF in small quantities.

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## IblinI

FuturePAF said:


> If the Saudis are cut off from supplies for their F-15s and possibly other western suppliers


Thus they will be very careful to not totally pissed off the west, but likely to move to acquired fifth gen platform from China, Russia Su75, SK...they dont have much Choice anyway.

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## FuturePAF

IblinI said:


> Thus they will be very careful to not totally pissed off the west, but likely to move to acquired fifth gen platform from China, Russia Su75, SK...they dont have much Choice anyway.


Yeah, it looks like they are feeling out the possibility of acquiring a Chinese platform, as a Russian one will hit them with CAATSA sanctions. The J-35 looks like a likely choice, but probably in the 2030s.



MajesticPug said:


> J10 could develop into a form of loyal wingman fighting system such that a J10S and 2 to 3 wingman UAV could carry extra weapon loads and detection range. We have seen two-seater J10S and why not the loyal wingman UAVs.  This could be a great addition to the PAF in small quantities.


There are better dedicated loyal wingmen China is developing, and has displayed at this year’s Zhuhai. Simpler designs that are more easier to lose and thus be considered “attritible”.

The Saudis could probably start by acquiring more advanced Chinese UCAVs as a step towards acquiring a manned platform.


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## SQ8

CivilianSupremacy said:


> True - I think Indians would have already discussed F-35s but US would want so much in return. Complete end to russian weapon systems of all kind. Maybe they even ask for suspension of trade with Russia. These kind of things which India won't accept. India normally don't do agreements which restrict it's freedom in anyway.
> 
> However, F-16 block 70 (rebranded as F-21 for india) as their MMRCA contract could really become reality. If gone ahead they surely will receive AMRAAMs 120-D the latest variant. Lockheed already agrees to setting up assembly & manufacturing plant in india.
> 
> I see J-10C numbers will go up from initial order of 25 to 100+ only if IAF finalize its MMRCA.


I don’t see that happening - the IAF has a massive budget.. but a lot of that isn’t just for procurement, and procurement isn’t just new jets. At the end, when the actual economics come into play the decisions have to be smart. And those are not impartial because they have bureaucratic interference and yes men involved.

Some of which now have political interference as well. So suppliers look to influence not just officers but also bureaucrats and BJP politicians to get things done.

Not that the PAF doesn’t have its yes men and kickback types but the lack of funds and civilian oversight means in general that temptation isn’t going around because most major suppliers aren’t interested enough to cultivate relationships beyond the military. That leaves only the PAF personnel able to both mess up decisions but also keep them in line.

Who is the PAF leadership then becomes the ultimate game master in procurement.

With the IAF they have their patriots and opportunists in the force, the bureaucracy and politicians. All fighting their wars and eventually its the most powerful joint force that wins out.



siegecrossbow said:


> While the F-35 is the best technical option the political baggage associated is too large. They are pretty much signing away their sovereignty by doing so. Based on what the South Koreans leaked they didn't have permission to use a lot of the plane's features unless they got the direct OK from Lockheed.


The F-35 is also a massive leap in technology - especially in what it carries and the US even restricted the Israelis in some aspects so they want their own systems on it to avoid it. Lockheed was not happy with the access it had to give the Israelis much like any product manufacturer would not be happy letting someone have freedom in looking around their internal mechanisms.

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## MastanKhan

White privilege said:


> Did you mean---- the *Ilyushin *??


Sorry---yes


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## MastanKhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are not the only one---. Majority is in the same boat as you are---.
> 
> No information has been leaked out yet---.
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> We already have one in place---the Illyushin ( corrected )---.


Hi,

Even the F-16 BLK 52's that Paf has---has a veil of secrecy over what it has inside of it.

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## TsAr

SQ8 said:


> Not the IAF
> They threw in their chips with the heavy, massive rcs elephant that is the mki, then with the ridiculously expensive Rafale and will look desperate not fulfilling their commitment to the Tejas.
> 
> Their best bet is to throw in the towel and go all in on the F-35. That will grant them the permanent edge over PAF


IAF would have to sweeten the deal by adding a few squadrons of F-18


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## SQ8

TsAr said:


> IAF would have to sweeten the deal by adding a few squadrons of F-18


It is possible but the IAF obsession with romanticism on WVR means they will have to really change their doctrine.

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## TsAr

SQ8 said:


> It is possible but the IAF obsession with romanticism on WVR means they will have to really change their doctrine.


logical thing to do would be to buy more Rafale for IN and IAF and get rid of the Mig-23's and replace them with Tejas


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## SQ8

TsAr said:


> logical thing to do would be to buy more Rafale for IN and IAF and get rid of the Mig-23's and replace them with Tejas


Mig-23s are already gone. Their replacement is the Rafale. 
Tejas was to replace the Bisons but they are just slow at it.

IAF has a lot of money but the Rafale isn’t cheap either

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## iLION12345_1

TsAr said:


> logical thing to do would be to buy more Rafale for IN and IAF and get rid of the Mig-23's and replace them with Tejas


Not logical at all unless india can produce Rafale locally and in the process threaten their local fighters, india missed an opportunity to place follow up orders for the Rafale when it ordered its first batch, if they order more now they’ll have to wait until after 2030 to get them because of the huge backlog of orders. The success of the rafale is proving to be an annoyance to some.

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## Bleek

SQ8 said:


> It is possible but the IAF obsession with romanticism on WVR means they will have to really change their doctrine.


Really? I thought Pakistan romanticised WVR the most, and India was the first to achieve BVR in the region which we largely neglected?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Bleek said:


> Really? I thought Pakistan romanticised WVR the most, and India was the first to achieve BVR in the region which we largely neglected?


Since inducting the AIM-120C5 and SD-10, the PAF's been focused on acquiring an advantageous long-range footing. So, it isn't just about range, but (depending on the options available) a long no-escape zone as well. WVR still matters, but the PAF wants to move towards HMD/S and HOBS AAM. In terms of the latter, we may even see talk of a 'Near BVR' capability too, especially with IRST coming online via the J-10CE.

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## siegecrossbow

I think WVR still matters to an extent in the India-Pakistan theater due to geographical complexities. Near Kashmir high mountains may make clear shots with BVR missiles a bit more difficult than it else where.

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## SQ8

Bleek said:


> Really? I thought Pakistan romanticised WVR the most, and India was the first to achieve BVR in the region which we largely neglected?


Nope
Pakistan was forced into the WVR fight - but the whole TVC thing and wanting the WVR arena was something the Indians were obsessed with and kept asking for at exercises.

While the PAF was secretly putting its pilots in some briefings on BVR they would normally not have access to - the IAF was requesting curtailing BVR engagements and wanting to do their TVC dances in the sky with Typhoons and vipers.

This doesn’t mean they did not have leaders that thought of this well. Their Mig-23 pilots practiced against vipers by basically firing their BVR missiles in salvos to get the vipers to defend and lose energy so they could close in with better energy and get kills that way

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF J10C Fighter Jet

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## siegecrossbow

SQ8 said:


> Nope
> Pakistan was forced into the WVR fight - but the whole TVC thing and wanting the WVR arena was something the Indians were obsessed with and kept asking for at exercises.
> 
> While the PAF was secretly putting its pilots in some briefings on BVR they would normally not have access to - the IAF was requesting curtailing BVR engagements and wanting to do their TVC dances in the sky with Typhoons and vipers.
> 
> This doesn’t mean they did not have leaders that thought of this well. Their Mig-23 pilots practiced against vipers by basically firing their BVR missiles in salvos to get the vipers to defend and lose energy so they could close in with better energy and get kills that way



The question is how relevant is TVC even in WVR when off bore SRAAM has become ubiquitous.

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## SQ8

siegecrossbow said:


> The question is how relevant is TVC even in WVR when off bore SRAAM has become ubiquitous.


It still helps in getting better aspect in a fight but only in isolated 1v1 or 1v2 fights. 

Otherwise the more aircraft in a fight the more useless TVC becomes.

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## Deino

Best one so far ... 22-119

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## Scorpiooo

Tipu7 said:


> That's not how plans are folding in reality. PAF is now more inclined towards J-10CE than Jf-17C/D.
> Jf17 is almost reaching the requisite figure needed within air force.


How many block 3 aka jft17c you see in future for PAF



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If the PAF wants MMU/TFX, it'd wait for the TR Motor engines. In the mean time, it can build out the J-10CE fleet.


J10C can go to 90+ (5 sqr) or even we can get future version D of J10 if Chinese go for it... It must semi stealth version



SQ8 said:


> No - TFX is likely going to be either Eurojet or F-100 with a rare possibility of something from Motor-Sich later.
> 
> There may be elements of TFX Pakistan might take into a FC-31P
> 
> 
> A local group makes these in Pakistan for the PAF… it is now implemented for Mirages and F-7s.. but it is still VR view overall.
> 
> No motion simulator yet - as mentioned earlier PAF wants AR - so basically the physical cockpit coupled with the ability to switch to actual cockpit when looking below the frame.


What ever the engine we most probably see TFX Pakistani variant as 5th Gen PFX in coming future


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## Deino



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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh I'd keep a close eye on Baykar Group. They're working on a twin-engine version of their Kizilelma UCAV. I think, at that point, you're entering manned fighter territory from a design complexity standpoint. This wouldn't be surprising either. Turkey lost out on the F-35B, but it still wants a complete maritime air warfare capability consisting of a manned fighter. TAI's doing some experimental stuff with the Hurjet, but I doubt that the Hurjet as-is would meet Turkey's needs.
> 
> I feel that Baykar Group could stealthily be working on a manned medium-weight fighter. I've taken some long shots before, e.g., seeing VLS on the PN MILGEM (done), pursuing a 3,000-ton-ish frigate (Jinnah-class), and an original LRMPA like Swordfish (Sea Sultan). But there were some signs pointing towards those outcomes. I see similar signs with Baykar Group working on its own manned fighter -- and, hear me out, I think the PAF could already be involved.
> 
> There's silence about AZM, but I don't think the energy for an original NGFA has gone away. Except now, I think the PAF could be directing it towards another original project, but with a capable partner with similar goals. The successor of the JF-17 could very well be in the works... but in the offices of a private Turkish company.


Possible, bcuz TFX is heavy fighter and PAf do need light 5th fighter too in future or can get J35 PAF variant



SQ8 said:


> F-100 was a front runner due to commonality with the F-16. The GE motor is also a front runner for the same reason because TuAF is familiar with the cores of both engines.
> 
> The XF-9 is an unknown quantity to me.
> The AL-31 is very unlikely especially after Ukraine conflict.
> 
> I find the WS-10 unlikely as well - although it is possible that if Turkey designs a jet for Pakistan that may come with it - maybe a long derivative of TFx but not TFX itself.


From Russia AL 41 have more chances then Al 31, why Turkish will go for old one when new is already in use by russia


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## Deino

Guys ... acn you stop discussing impossible Russian or Ukrainian engine choices for the TFX in this thread? It's totally irrelevant

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep, and it's worth remembering the Turkish Navy wanted the F-35B. So, there's an avenue for another fighter. However, it wouldn't surprise me if this ends up being a private sector project led by Baykar Group. They're taking point on developing air warfare solutions for the Turkish Navy, e.g., UAVs and UCAVs.
> 
> So, this work may evolve into a full-out NGFA. However, doing it for just 2-3 squadrons in the Turkish Navy isn't economical, so a large-scale requirement from either the Turkish Air Force or an outsider (e.g., the PAF) would be key.


PAF is already engage with TAI, so PAF requirements will also limited in numbers


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## Scorpiooo

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Even the F-16 BLK 52's that Paf has---has a veil of secrecy over what it has inside of it.


Really? What kind off

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## Tempest II

Deino said:


> View attachment 899419


The camo scheme ... does that mean for A2G assignments the planes operate at a lower altitude? And assume there are hunter flying above them?

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## python-000

Deino said:


> View attachment 899419


its look like a tiger Shark


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## Deino

Tempest II said:


> The camo scheme ... does that mean for A2G assignments the planes operate at a lower altitude? And assume there are hunter flying above them?




This is what I got from the text above via Google Lens:

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## Khanivore




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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

The Firebird

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## Gripen9

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> The Firebird
> View attachment 899556


not PAF's

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## ghazi52

.,.,.

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## TopGun786

Pakistan Air Force j10c, Jf17 thunder and Karakoram Eagle/ZDK-03 (AEW&C) are flying together. Also, it seems long-range missile fitted in JF17 is PL15E ?credit on the image

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## LKJ86

TopGun786 said:


> Karakoram Eagle/ZDK-03 (AEW&C)


It looks like KJ-500.

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## Windjammer

LKJ86 said:


> It looks like KJ-500.


I think it's just a CGI.

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## Beast

Deino said:


> This is what I got from the text above via Google Lens:
> 
> View attachment 899421


J-10 is not light weight. Just becos it's single engine doesn't make it really small. J-10 is classify under medium weight fighter.

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## Sinnerman108

Windjammer said:


> I think it's just a CGI.



and a very low quality image editing effort at that.


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## Windjammer



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## Clairvoyant

Not sure if it has been posted before but quite a nice article in "Second to None" magazine on induction of J.10.​​Enter the Dragon Beginning of a New Era​November 8, 2022 Editor by Air Cdre Muhammad Ali




Earlier in March, a new shape took to the skies over Pakistan. Six J-10Cs, bearing the tail numbers 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, and 106, entered Pakistan via PURPA (waypoint) on the northeastern border with China. Precise and lethal equipped with canards, delta wing design, a soaring 4.5 generation Omni-role, all-weather-capable jet – PAF’s ‘Vigorous Dragon’ had arrived to safeguard the country’s future for years to come. The scenes were reminiscent of 1968, when six French Mirage fighters, tail numbers ranging from 101 to 106 entered Pakistani airspace. Leading the formation was Wg Cdr MM Alam. Sqn Ldr Hakimullah, Sqn Ldr Farooq F Khan, Sqn Ldr Farooq Umar, Flt Lt Arif Manzoor, and Flt Lt Akhtar Rao, flew at his wings. Fast forward to 2022. Leading the formation of Dragons was OC No 15 Sqn, Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim Shehzada. Wg Cdr Bilal Raza, Sqn Ldr Jibran Rashid, Sqn Ldr Hasan Anees, Sqn Ldr Zeeshan Muhammad, Sqn Ldr Ali Qasim, flew on the wings of their leader. The formation is on its way to Kamra from Chengdu. Back at PAF Base Minhas, the air is rife with energy. A sense of excitement and pride runs through all, gathered at the occasion to welcome the Dragons. All eyes are glued towards the beginning of the runway to catch the first glance of Dragons about to appear for landing. Assembled on the tarmac of the base is the senior leadership of PAF under its honorable leader, ACM Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, the CAS PAF. Finally, the historic moment had arrived. First Dragon bearing Serial No 101, flown by Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim appeared on the scene. The six J-10Cs touched down at PAF Base Minhas at Kamra. Senior air officials observing from the tarmac breathed a sigh of relief and applauded the perfect landings. As the aircraft appeared on the tarmac, a water canon salute was presented to the incoming Dragons, a tradition followed to welcome the arrival of new aircraft at a facility. Before Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim could disembark and line up his crew for presentation, he found Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, climbing the ladder, to greet him. “Does the plane live up to our expectations?” asked the smiling Air Chief. “I’ll have to admit, it is one of the best fighter jets in the world. With all the work we had been doing in China over the months, improving our tactics in the way we operate the platform, I can safely say that the capability that we have brought back with us is truly phenomenal, far better than what we expected, sir,” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim responded. It’s a significant investment, but in defense, nothing comes cheap. The J-10C is a cutting-edge platform, moving the PAF into a new ball game in terms of operational readiness, in terms of the nature of the platform the PAF was acquiring. When the “Second to None” team spoke with ground crews and the pilots, it was fair to say that the J-10C was a step in the right direction, something that the PAF had been working towards for a long time. It was just fantastic to see them arrive, having traveled all the way from China. It was a thing of beauty. Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force maintained that the induction of the Dragons highlighted the fact that the investments the air force made in capabilities and in capacity was significant. “The fact that we will be flying the J-10C makes a statement that PAF, has significant defense capability and is willing to do its part in the world, and is willing to meet its obligations,” the Air Chief said during the arrival ceremony of the jets at PAF Base Minhas, where the enthusiasm was contagious.





*Taming the Dragon*
To get trained on J-10Cs and later ferry the Dragons from China, a team of professionals including both pilots and ground crew was shortlisted. Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim Shahzada, who has flown F-16s and Mirages was given the honor of leading the contingent to China in October 2021. His team boasted skilled F-16, JF-17, and Mirage pilots, familiar with Beyond Visual Range (BVR), and had AI exposure. Following strict covid protocols, the team traveled in three groups over a span of three weeks. Gp Capt Azkaar from Project Dragon handled logistics, overseeing departure formalities, flight cancellations due to covid, and preparing backups for dropouts. Upon landing in China, on 20 October, the crews were quarantined in the city of arrival for 14 days. On the second last day of the quarantine, Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim tested positive. The rest were cleared to depart to Chengdu, where they were quarantined for another two weeks. Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim spent, in all, 72 days in quarantine before he could join his teammates who had already started their training. The training was focused specifically on operating the J-10C. “In Chengdu, we were basically starting to learn how to fly this technologically advanced jet, and then we went through all the different mission sets and basic skills,” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim said. Most of the pilot’s instructions came on the ground, in the classrooms followed by pilots practicing the aircraft’s most unique capabilities in an advanced simulator. The language was a major barrier, which the PAF crew overcame with the help of an interpreter. After classes, PAF pilots used to sit down to reconcile information on their own. No time to enjoy and see China. They were trained directly by the original equipment manufacturers (OEM), and by Chinese counterparts with perhaps a few more flying hours under their belts. A few days of theoretical sessions were followed by quizzes. During training, it was crucial that pilots got comfortable executing J-10C maneuvers. Hence, simulator training started in detail, learning avionics, switchology, feel of controls was extremely realistic, engine handling, and the response of controls – allowing to recreate emergencies and procedures in the aircraft that really simulate what it would be like to fly in a real J-10C. Each PAF pilot had to complete the prescribed number of sorties in the simulator as a minimum syllabus requirement, only then they could be allowed in the new jet. Anything they could do in an aircraft they could in the simulator – max rate turns, vertical climbs weapon employment techniques, etc. “A lot of people underestimate the amount of work it takes to become a pilot, and a fighter pilot specifically. A one-hour flight, even in a simulator might mean up to several additional hours of the briefing, gearing up, flight inspections, and debriefings, not to mention the hours spent studying/preparing for each mission,” said Wg Cdr Bilal Raza emphasizes the importance of training. Finally, the day arrived when the crew had the opportunity to have the first look at the aircraft. The PAF crew were in awe of the jet when they first set their eyes on the Dragon. The first thing they noticed was its huge size, slightly different shape, and looks as compared to weapon systems they had already flown. “It was a fantastic feeling and we were in love with the bird at first sight,” Wg Cdr Bilal Raza said. “It’s one of the world’s most advanced fighter aircraft and we’re lucky to be a part of that program in the PAF, and to be at the leading edge of that is a real privilege and real delight,” Wg Cdr Bilal Raza added, enthusiastic to feel how it would handle in the air, and wanting to experience its agility and maneuverability. At Chengdu, it was the job of Chinese instructors to teach PAF pilots how to fly the J-10C from scratch. The Chinese were nervous, at first, fearing the guest crew would not be able to hack it. “This wasn’t like college where we could get through with minimum passing grades. We had to attain almost 100% to qualify in each and every phase, there were no let-ups. We were expected to catch on to material we were taught really quickly, the learning curve had definitely been pretty steep,” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim recalled. The instructors worked overtime, and gave up a week of Chinese New Year holidays to train PAF pilots – no compromises to achieve minimum standards.
*





The First Mission*
After all the tedious groundwork – learning about aerodynamics, aircraft systems, navigation, and instrument flying, it was time to get a feel of the jet. PAF crews spent two days climbing into the cockpit, strapping up, and developing equipment familiarization. Each pilot performed ground starts, after start procedures, followed by shut down, slow/medium taxi came later. some of the pilots progressed while the remaining continued on the simulator. “Finally, we had all the gear on, and after months of preparation, it was time to go flying. Of course, a thorough briefing before flight, and supervisor checks were performed so that everything was in order in order before getting airborne.” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim said. Since the PAF airmen had not flown for a long period and they needed to regain their flying currency. They jumped into K-8s to get used to the Gs, get currency, and understand wind patterns and operating areas. Before stepping foot in the J-10C cockpit, student pilots needed to familiarize themselves with the gear needed to operate the J-10C, in their custom-made G suits to fit perfectly. Last but not the least, the pilots learned to utilize the most technologically advanced piece of equipment, their helmets. The pilot’s Heads-Up Display was directly projected on the visor rather than just at the front of the cockpit. This allowed pilots to easily view key data such as altitude, air speed, and direction and even select multiple targets and shoot. “Since the jet helps us so much, flying becomes second nature. That way we can focus on all the information that the plane is giving us,” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim elaborated. “It’s amazing to be in a 4.5 generation semi-stealth fighter, kind of tip of the spear. It’s a heavily weighted aircraft, in terms of combat power, that the PAF brings to the fight,” Sqn Ldr Jibran Rashid said. One part of history was achieved when Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim flew the first solo sortie of the Dragon. “A lot of the challenge was trying to absorb all the information the jet is giving you, operate all the sensors and the systems at the same time, and fly, the feeling was enormous,” the team leader said. All the PAF pilots enjoyed basic handling, and confidence-building maneuvers in advanced handling missions, and in clean and tanked configurations both. This was followed by training in air combat tactics and instructor training for some of the PAF aircrew. The crews were taken aback after engaging afterburner (AB). The kick was bigger than the F-16. “There was an unbelievable amount of thrust when I opened up the afterburner for the first time. The J-10C can produce 29,000 lb thrust, which is 10,000 lbs excess thrust than the JF-17 produces, and as much power as two and a half Mirages put together. A single Mirage produces 14,000 lb thrust,” Sqn Ldr Jibran Rashid said. The speed increment was so fast that post-take-off procedures had to be executed in rapid succession to remain with the aircraft. Once in the air, handling the jet was not the most difficult aspect, Wg Cdr Bilal Raza said adding, “It is actually a really easy plane to fly, the aircraft comes with Voice Recognition Capability which makes your life much easy.” Nonetheless, the pilots flew at 26,000 ft, did general steep turns, building up Gs gradually, performed straight in approach, accessed information through voice commands such as requesting fuel state, hands-on throttle and stick (HOTAS) on most actions, instrument approach, close pattern, low go, and deploying drag shoot and making a full stop landing comfortably within 3, 500 to 4, 000 ft on a 7,500 ft runway. “It was historic and emotional for Pakistanis and Chinese both when we landed safely for the first time. We were presented with bouquets,” Wg Cdr Bilal Raza said.
*





Dragons Ferry*
After six months of trials and tribulations, it was time to ferry the first batch of six J-10C Dragons, back home. From here on, life would never be the same. The crew set down to plan the ferry mission in the minutest details. They needed answers to all the questions, what selecting diversionary airfields, protocols in case of emergency, what is the enroute weather like, etc. Crossing over the Karakorum range was no easy job, it needed perfect and flawless planning which the crew did. Finally, came the ferry day. The aircraft was topped up with required fuel and three external tanks each was fitted to the ferry aircraft. Six Dragons under Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim started up and headed for the take-off point. After Burners on, six aircraft started to roll on the Chengdu runway, off to motherland. Getting airborne, the leader looked around to see if the rest of his section were with him. Climbed up to cruise height and followed the planned route. “It was a proud day, a proud moment for all of us. We knew that we were making history, the feeling was nostalgic. The ferry was eventless, and the weather was good. As we entered the Karakorums we were amazed to see the beauty of the landscape. We flew abreast of the K-2, towering 28000 feet plus the second highest peak in the world. As soon as the six J-10C jets entered Pakistani air space, an escort F-16 from No 9 Sqn ‘Griffins’, joined the formation of the Dragons. “Welcome back boys,” the pilot of the Fighting Falcon, call sign Griffin-1 said over the radio. Bit of a homecoming for the PAF. As soon as we established radio contact with Pakistani ATC radar we were greeted enthusiastically. “Dragon-1, welcome home,” replied the ground controller on the radio. The six new jets, tail numbered 101 to 106, landed at PAF Base Minhas at Kamra, the material and logistical base of the new No 15 Sqn. The PAF crews had achieved a milestone that very few others could. Tremendous investment had been made at Kamra, which has been a key base for many years. A fantastic new chapter in the country’s military capabilities and history. What it said in many ways is that after the induction of this state-of-the-art, modern, and potent weapons system, the PAF is now operating in a much stronger and more efficient manner, thanks to these Dragons.





*By
Air Cdre Muhammad Ali SI(M) &
S.Khalil *

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## FuturePAF

TopGun786 said:


> Pakistan Air Force j10c, Jf17 thunder and Karakoram Eagle/ZDK-03 (AEW&C) are flying together. Also, it seems long-range missile fitted in JF17 is PL15E ?credit on the image
> View attachment 900508


Perhaps the PAF should also induct a Y-9 based EW platform as well as a Y-9 based Tanker, so more tankers can be operated and dispersed to more bases, allowing fighters to stay in the fight longer, and not needing to land to refuel. It would also mean the JF-17 and J-10 could have to have OBOGS if it doesn’t already.

The EW/ELINT Y-9 and Y-9 tanker would be especially useful for naval operations, can could also be marketed for the export market along with the ZDK-03. Argentina with its long coastline and long mountainous border with Chile may find the Y-9 variants especially useful in any potential operation.

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## Beast

FuturePAF said:


> Perhaps the PAF should also induct a Y-9 based EW platform as well as a Y-9 based Tanker, so more tankers can be operated and dispersed to more bases, allowing fighters to stay in the fight longer, and not needing to land to refuel. It would also mean the JF-17 and J-10 could have to have OBOGS if it doesn’t already.
> 
> The EW/ELINT Y-9 and Y-9 tanker would be especially useful for naval operations, can could also be marketed for the export market along with the ZDK-


I think China shall offer a Y-9 tanker for export.

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## Horse_Rider

FuturePAF said:


> Perhaps the PAF should also induct a Y-9 based EW platform as well as a Y-9 based Tanker, so more tankers can be operated and dispersed to more bases, allowing fighters to stay in the fight longer, and not needing to land to refuel. It would also mean the JF-17 and J-10 could have to have OBOGS if it doesn’t already.
> 
> The EW/ELINT Y-9 and Y-9 tanker would be especially useful for naval operations, can could also be marketed for the export market along with the ZDK-03. Argentina with its long coastline and long mountainous border with Chile may find the Y-9 variants especially useful in any potential operation.



The PAF would have to allocate the Tanker support just like it's EW units, i.e. spread out by sector. Y-9 would be a good option but we have enough EW capability so I don't think we'd need to spend money on that. But as J-10CP number grows, tanker support is a must.

@MastanKhan : I'm moving that J-10C related discussion on here. My response below:
We produce a vast majority of JF-17 airframes and sub-systems for the JFT. The tooling equipment is there and can be re-tooled, or, acquired new to setup another assembly line to produce another airframe if we have ToT wrt the blue prints to produce a delta wing J-10 as JFT block 4. 

Additionally, the avionics, being used in JFT already are miniaturized tech of the J-10. It would be a matter of expanding the chipset's capacity to do more. The JFT has set the industry to a big degree in Pakistan. 

We ALL know on here that with J-10C numbers touching 90-100, there will be a "rebuild" factory. That rebuild factory can start as an assembly factory to begin with and later be converted into a rebuild factory when the orders are complete.

This will provide a great Test Bed for future AZM (if they want to kickstart it). When Turkey did this very thing with the F-16 license manufacturing, they didn't have any local defense industry. This one licensed build industry established the Turkish defense industry as we know it today. A journey of 30 years! We need to start now too and build on JFT (the initial investment).

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) :
Bilal bhai - I've been visiting your QUWA site on and off. Good stuff! On this subject, wouldn't it make sense to rebrand JFT block 4 to incorporate delta winged J-10C as local assembly with local ToT? And eventually use this platform for stealthy airframe & tech to convert the same J-10C as a stealthy single engine platform with miniaturized J-20 / TFX tech? That gives us many years to learn and localize the tech. This way, the theoretical JFT block 4 I am proposing, would also eliminate airframe related shortcomings too.


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## FuturePAF

Beast said:


> I think China shall offer a Y-9 tanker for export.



I just recalled the Y-30 project. It’s probably the project many potential customers of a transport or tanker were waiting for if they don’t want to or can’t buy either the C-130J or A-400M. It would carry about a half the fuel a IL-78, as compared to a Y-9 that could only carry a third the fuel that a IL-78 could carry.

Probably better to build the tanker off that aircraft. C-130J sell for about $66 Million.

There is also the possibility of an aircraft similar to the KC-390 from Embraer which has a 26 ton load capacity and is expected to sell for around $50 million. A twin engine smaller version of the Y-20 at around $50 million is probably what may fit the market place going forward. A smaller turboprop Y-30 may have to be priced at around 35-40 million to be competitive with the KC-390, considering the fuel carrying disparity.









Not As Sexy As Stealth, But Maybe More Important: China Shows Off New Cargo Planes


At Zhuhai 2014, China debuts the Y-20 heavy transport to the entire world, with a USAF C-17A Globemaster III present as a guest of honor. Meanwhile, Chinese manufacturers hope to conquer the seas and ground with future types of cargo planes, and China's commercial aircraft gets an export boost...




www.popsci.com





The J-10 (if equipped with an OBOGS) could then stay on station for hours, especially out at sea.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Horse_Rider said:


> The PAF would have to allocate the Tanker support just like it's EW units, i.e. spread out by sector. Y-9 would be a good option but we have enough EW capability so I don't think we'd need to spend money on that. But as J-10CP number grows, tanker support is a must.
> 
> @MastanKhan : I'm moving that J-10C related discussion on here. My response below:
> We produce a vast majority of JF-17 airframes and sub-systems for the JFT. The tooling equipment is there and can be re-tooled, or, acquired new to setup another assembly line to produce another airframe if we have ToT wrt the blue prints to produce a delta wing J-10 as JFT block 4.
> 
> Additionally, the avionics, being used in JFT already are miniaturized tech of the J-10. It would be a matter of expanding the chipset's capacity to do more. The JFT has set the industry to a big degree in Pakistan.
> 
> We ALL know on here that with J-10C numbers touching 90-100, there will be a "rebuild" factory. That rebuild factory can start as an assembly factory to begin with and later be converted into a rebuild factory when the orders are complete.
> 
> This will provide a great Test Bed for future AZM (if they want to kickstart it). When Turkey did this very thing with the F-16 license manufacturing, they didn't have any local defense industry. This one licensed build industry established the Turkish defense industry as we know it today. A journey of 30 years! We need to start now too and build on JFT (the initial investment).
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) :
> Bilal bhai - I've been visiting your QUWA site on and off. Good stuff! On this subject, wouldn't it make sense to rebrand JFT block 4 to incorporate delta winged J-10C as local assembly with local ToT? And eventually use this platform for stealthy airframe & tech to convert the same J-10C as a stealthy single engine platform with miniaturized J-20 / TFX tech? That gives us many years to learn and localize the tech. This way, the theoretical JFT block 4 I am proposing, would also eliminate airframe related shortcomings too.


tbh, if there's a JF-17 Block-4, it'd be a smaller upgrade to the Block-3. I don't think the PAF will invest any further in the JF-17 airframe (besides maybe changing the engine to the WS-13). If it needs more range or payload, it'll procure more J-10CEs.

Otherwise, for what it is (i.e., a lightweight multirole fighter), the JF-17 does the job and some more. 

The only "big" change I can see the PAF pushing for in the JF-17 is adding an integrated IRST. This assumes the PAF moves ahead with the 'Near BVR' concept, i.e., using the IRST as the primary awareness system at up to 40 km and, in turn, using the PL-10E at around 20-30 km out (@SQ8). 

Basically, the idea behind 'Near BVR' is that you have the longest stick within the distance most of your real-life engagements will take place. It's basically the area where you'll want to neutralize every enemy air asset while exposing as little from your end as possible.

I think a really good IRST system that can cue a HOBS AAM with a range of 20-30 km is the key here.

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## Horse_Rider

FuturePAF said:


> I just recalled the Y-30 project. It’s probably the project many potential customers of a transport or tanker were waiting for if they don’t want to or can’t buy either the C-130J or A-400M. It would carry about a half the fuel a IL-78, as compared to a Y-9 that could only carry a third the fuel that a IL-78 could carry.
> 
> Probably better to build the tanker off that aircraft. C-130J sell for about $66 Million.
> 
> There is also the possibility of an aircraft similar to the KC-390 from Embraer which has a 26 ton load capacity and is expected to sell for around $50 million. A twin engine smaller version of the Y-20 at around $50 million is probably what may fit the market place going forward. A smaller turboprop Y-30 may have to be priced at around 35-40 million to be competitive with the KC-390, considering the fuel carrying disparity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not As Sexy As Stealth, But Maybe More Important: China Shows Off New Cargo Planes
> 
> 
> At Zhuhai 2014, China debuts the Y-20 heavy transport to the entire world, with a USAF C-17A Globemaster III present as a guest of honor. Meanwhile, Chinese manufacturers hope to conquer the seas and ground with future types of cargo planes, and China's commercial aircraft gets an export boost...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.popsci.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The J-10 (if equipped with an OBOGS) could then stay on station for hours, especially out at sea.



The PAF doesn't have $ 50 M laying around for ONE tanker purchase. Also, the combat theater we are in (within minutes of each other's airbases, literally), there isn't enough time to refuel more than one formation of 3 jets as we lack depth. Our deepest point is just 500 KM that's reachable through VLBVR missiles within 3-4 minutes during conflict. 

So the best solution may be to acquire a few multirole Y-8 - Y-9's and spread them out for sector based tanker support during conflict.


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## TopGun786

TopGun786 said:


> Pakistan Air Force j10c, Jf17 thunder and Karakoram Eagle/ZDK-03 (AEW&C) are flying together. Also, it seems long-range missile fitted in JF17 is PL15E ?credit on the image
> View attachment 900508


I have learned that this image is fake (photoshopped). makes sense.


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## siegecrossbow

Clairvoyant said:


> Not sure if it has been posted before but quite a nice article in "Second to None" magazine on induction of J.10.​​Enter the Dragon Beginning of a New Era​November 8, 2022 Editor by Air Cdre Muhammad Ali
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Earlier in March, a new shape took to the skies over Pakistan. Six J-10Cs, bearing the tail numbers 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, and 106, entered Pakistan via PURPA (waypoint) on the northeastern border with China. Precise and lethal equipped with canards, delta wing design, a soaring 4.5 generation Omni-role, all-weather-capable jet – PAF’s ‘Vigorous Dragon’ had arrived to safeguard the country’s future for years to come. The scenes were reminiscent of 1968, when six French Mirage fighters, tail numbers ranging from 101 to 106 entered Pakistani airspace. Leading the formation was Wg Cdr MM Alam. Sqn Ldr Hakimullah, Sqn Ldr Farooq F Khan, Sqn Ldr Farooq Umar, Flt Lt Arif Manzoor, and Flt Lt Akhtar Rao, flew at his wings. Fast forward to 2022. Leading the formation of Dragons was OC No 15 Sqn, Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim Shehzada. Wg Cdr Bilal Raza, Sqn Ldr Jibran Rashid, Sqn Ldr Hasan Anees, Sqn Ldr Zeeshan Muhammad, Sqn Ldr Ali Qasim, flew on the wings of their leader. The formation is on its way to Kamra from Chengdu. Back at PAF Base Minhas, the air is rife with energy. A sense of excitement and pride runs through all, gathered at the occasion to welcome the Dragons. All eyes are glued towards the beginning of the runway to catch the first glance of Dragons about to appear for landing. Assembled on the tarmac of the base is the senior leadership of PAF under its honorable leader, ACM Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, the CAS PAF. Finally, the historic moment had arrived. First Dragon bearing Serial No 101, flown by Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim appeared on the scene. The six J-10Cs touched down at PAF Base Minhas at Kamra. Senior air officials observing from the tarmac breathed a sigh of relief and applauded the perfect landings. As the aircraft appeared on the tarmac, a water canon salute was presented to the incoming Dragons, a tradition followed to welcome the arrival of new aircraft at a facility. Before Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim could disembark and line up his crew for presentation, he found Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, climbing the ladder, to greet him. “Does the plane live up to our expectations?” asked the smiling Air Chief. “I’ll have to admit, it is one of the best fighter jets in the world. With all the work we had been doing in China over the months, improving our tactics in the way we operate the platform, I can safely say that the capability that we have brought back with us is truly phenomenal, far better than what we expected, sir,” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim responded. It’s a significant investment, but in defense, nothing comes cheap. The J-10C is a cutting-edge platform, moving the PAF into a new ball game in terms of operational readiness, in terms of the nature of the platform the PAF was acquiring. When the “Second to None” team spoke with ground crews and the pilots, it was fair to say that the J-10C was a step in the right direction, something that the PAF had been working towards for a long time. It was just fantastic to see them arrive, having traveled all the way from China. It was a thing of beauty. Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force maintained that the induction of the Dragons highlighted the fact that the investments the air force made in capabilities and in capacity was significant. “The fact that we will be flying the J-10C makes a statement that PAF, has significant defense capability and is willing to do its part in the world, and is willing to meet its obligations,” the Air Chief said during the arrival ceremony of the jets at PAF Base Minhas, where the enthusiasm was contagious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Taming the Dragon*
> To get trained on J-10Cs and later ferry the Dragons from China, a team of professionals including both pilots and ground crew was shortlisted. Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim Shahzada, who has flown F-16s and Mirages was given the honor of leading the contingent to China in October 2021. His team boasted skilled F-16, JF-17, and Mirage pilots, familiar with Beyond Visual Range (BVR), and had AI exposure. Following strict covid protocols, the team traveled in three groups over a span of three weeks. Gp Capt Azkaar from Project Dragon handled logistics, overseeing departure formalities, flight cancellations due to covid, and preparing backups for dropouts. Upon landing in China, on 20 October, the crews were quarantined in the city of arrival for 14 days. On the second last day of the quarantine, Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim tested positive. The rest were cleared to depart to Chengdu, where they were quarantined for another two weeks. Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim spent, in all, 72 days in quarantine before he could join his teammates who had already started their training. The training was focused specifically on operating the J-10C. “In Chengdu, we were basically starting to learn how to fly this technologically advanced jet, and then we went through all the different mission sets and basic skills,” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim said. Most of the pilot’s instructions came on the ground, in the classrooms followed by pilots practicing the aircraft’s most unique capabilities in an advanced simulator. The language was a major barrier, which the PAF crew overcame with the help of an interpreter. After classes, PAF pilots used to sit down to reconcile information on their own. No time to enjoy and see China. They were trained directly by the original equipment manufacturers (OEM), and by Chinese counterparts with perhaps a few more flying hours under their belts. A few days of theoretical sessions were followed by quizzes. During training, it was crucial that pilots got comfortable executing J-10C maneuvers. Hence, simulator training started in detail, learning avionics, switchology, feel of controls was extremely realistic, engine handling, and the response of controls – allowing to recreate emergencies and procedures in the aircraft that really simulate what it would be like to fly in a real J-10C. Each PAF pilot had to complete the prescribed number of sorties in the simulator as a minimum syllabus requirement, only then they could be allowed in the new jet. Anything they could do in an aircraft they could in the simulator – max rate turns, vertical climbs weapon employment techniques, etc. “A lot of people underestimate the amount of work it takes to become a pilot, and a fighter pilot specifically. A one-hour flight, even in a simulator might mean up to several additional hours of the briefing, gearing up, flight inspections, and debriefings, not to mention the hours spent studying/preparing for each mission,” said Wg Cdr Bilal Raza emphasizes the importance of training. Finally, the day arrived when the crew had the opportunity to have the first look at the aircraft. The PAF crew were in awe of the jet when they first set their eyes on the Dragon. The first thing they noticed was its huge size, slightly different shape, and looks as compared to weapon systems they had already flown. “It was a fantastic feeling and we were in love with the bird at first sight,” Wg Cdr Bilal Raza said. “It’s one of the world’s most advanced fighter aircraft and we’re lucky to be a part of that program in the PAF, and to be at the leading edge of that is a real privilege and real delight,” Wg Cdr Bilal Raza added, enthusiastic to feel how it would handle in the air, and wanting to experience its agility and maneuverability. At Chengdu, it was the job of Chinese instructors to teach PAF pilots how to fly the J-10C from scratch. The Chinese were nervous, at first, fearing the guest crew would not be able to hack it. “This wasn’t like college where we could get through with minimum passing grades. We had to attain almost 100% to qualify in each and every phase, there were no let-ups. We were expected to catch on to material we were taught really quickly, the learning curve had definitely been pretty steep,” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim recalled. The instructors worked overtime, and gave up a week of Chinese New Year holidays to train PAF pilots – no compromises to achieve minimum standards.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The First Mission*
> After all the tedious groundwork – learning about aerodynamics, aircraft systems, navigation, and instrument flying, it was time to get a feel of the jet. PAF crews spent two days climbing into the cockpit, strapping up, and developing equipment familiarization. Each pilot performed ground starts, after start procedures, followed by shut down, slow/medium taxi came later. some of the pilots progressed while the remaining continued on the simulator. “Finally, we had all the gear on, and after months of preparation, it was time to go flying. Of course, a thorough briefing before flight, and supervisor checks were performed so that everything was in order in order before getting airborne.” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim said. Since the PAF airmen had not flown for a long period and they needed to regain their flying currency. They jumped into K-8s to get used to the Gs, get currency, and understand wind patterns and operating areas. Before stepping foot in the J-10C cockpit, student pilots needed to familiarize themselves with the gear needed to operate the J-10C, in their custom-made G suits to fit perfectly. Last but not the least, the pilots learned to utilize the most technologically advanced piece of equipment, their helmets. The pilot’s Heads-Up Display was directly projected on the visor rather than just at the front of the cockpit. This allowed pilots to easily view key data such as altitude, air speed, and direction and even select multiple targets and shoot. “Since the jet helps us so much, flying becomes second nature. That way we can focus on all the information that the plane is giving us,” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim elaborated. “It’s amazing to be in a 4.5 generation semi-stealth fighter, kind of tip of the spear. It’s a heavily weighted aircraft, in terms of combat power, that the PAF brings to the fight,” Sqn Ldr Jibran Rashid said. One part of history was achieved when Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim flew the first solo sortie of the Dragon. “A lot of the challenge was trying to absorb all the information the jet is giving you, operate all the sensors and the systems at the same time, and fly, the feeling was enormous,” the team leader said. All the PAF pilots enjoyed basic handling, and confidence-building maneuvers in advanced handling missions, and in clean and tanked configurations both. This was followed by training in air combat tactics and instructor training for some of the PAF aircrew. The crews were taken aback after engaging afterburner (AB). The kick was bigger than the F-16. “There was an unbelievable amount of thrust when I opened up the afterburner for the first time. The J-10C can produce 29,000 lb thrust, which is 10,000 lbs excess thrust than the JF-17 produces, and as much power as two and a half Mirages put together. A single Mirage produces 14,000 lb thrust,” Sqn Ldr Jibran Rashid said. The speed increment was so fast that post-take-off procedures had to be executed in rapid succession to remain with the aircraft. Once in the air, handling the jet was not the most difficult aspect, Wg Cdr Bilal Raza said adding, “It is actually a really easy plane to fly, the aircraft comes with Voice Recognition Capability which makes your life much easy.” Nonetheless, the pilots flew at 26,000 ft, did general steep turns, building up Gs gradually, performed straight in approach, accessed information through voice commands such as requesting fuel state, hands-on throttle and stick (HOTAS) on most actions, instrument approach, close pattern, low go, and deploying drag shoot and making a full stop landing comfortably within 3, 500 to 4, 000 ft on a 7,500 ft runway. “It was historic and emotional for Pakistanis and Chinese both when we landed safely for the first time. We were presented with bouquets,” Wg Cdr Bilal Raza said.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dragons Ferry*
> After six months of trials and tribulations, it was time to ferry the first batch of six J-10C Dragons, back home. From here on, life would never be the same. The crew set down to plan the ferry mission in the minutest details. They needed answers to all the questions, what selecting diversionary airfields, protocols in case of emergency, what is the enroute weather like, etc. Crossing over the Karakorum range was no easy job, it needed perfect and flawless planning which the crew did. Finally, came the ferry day. The aircraft was topped up with required fuel and three external tanks each was fitted to the ferry aircraft. Six Dragons under Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim started up and headed for the take-off point. After Burners on, six aircraft started to roll on the Chengdu runway, off to motherland. Getting airborne, the leader looked around to see if the rest of his section were with him. Climbed up to cruise height and followed the planned route. “It was a proud day, a proud moment for all of us. We knew that we were making history, the feeling was nostalgic. The ferry was eventless, and the weather was good. As we entered the Karakorums we were amazed to see the beauty of the landscape. We flew abreast of the K-2, towering 28000 feet plus the second highest peak in the world. As soon as the six J-10C jets entered Pakistani air space, an escort F-16 from No 9 Sqn ‘Griffins’, joined the formation of the Dragons. “Welcome back boys,” the pilot of the Fighting Falcon, call sign Griffin-1 said over the radio. Bit of a homecoming for the PAF. As soon as we established radio contact with Pakistani ATC radar we were greeted enthusiastically. “Dragon-1, welcome home,” replied the ground controller on the radio. The six new jets, tail numbered 101 to 106, landed at PAF Base Minhas at Kamra, the material and logistical base of the new No 15 Sqn. The PAF crews had achieved a milestone that very few others could. Tremendous investment had been made at Kamra, which has been a key base for many years. A fantastic new chapter in the country’s military capabilities and history. What it said in many ways is that after the induction of this state-of-the-art, modern, and potent weapons system, the PAF is now operating in a much stronger and more efficient manner, thanks to these Dragons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *By
> Air Cdre Muhammad Ali SI(M) &
> S.Khalil *



This article conclusively answers the seeming conundrum of J-20 pilots stating that their aircraft is easy to fly but hard to master. Like the J-10C, the J-20 is easy to handle/maneuver but since the plane generates so much information, mastering how to best operate the plane in combat situation is difficult. Kudos to Pakistanis pilots for mastering such a bird in such a short period of time.

One other interesting tidbit is the claim that J-10C is semi-stealth. This is inline with leaked information from the Zhurihe Parade a couple of years back where ground radar operators were specifically warned that J-10C (clean) and J-20 (even with lunesburg lens) are difficult to track and require multiple systems covering all the angles for safety purposes. J-16/J-11B do not have this issue.

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## Abid123

In my opinion PAF needs 20 squadrons (360 fighter jets) of 4th and 4.5th generation aircraft before moving on to 5th generation.

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## siegecrossbow

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh, if there's a JF-17 Block-4, it'd be a smaller upgrade to the Block-3. I don't think the PAF will invest any further in the JF-17 airframe (besides maybe changing the engine to the WS-13). If it needs more range or payload, it'll procure more J-10CEs.
> 
> Otherwise, for what it is (i.e., a lightweight multirole fighter), the JF-17 does the job and some more.
> 
> The only "big" change I can see the PAF pushing for in the JF-17 is adding an integrated IRST. This assumes the PAF moves ahead with the 'Near BVR' concept, i.e., using the IRST as the primary awareness system at up to 40 km and, in turn, using the PL-10E at around 20-30 km out (@SQ8).
> 
> Basically, the idea behind 'Near BVR' is that you have the longest stick within the distance most of your real-life engagements will take place. It's basically the area where you'll want to neutralize every enemy air asset while exposing as little from your end as possible.
> 
> I think a really good IRST system that can cue a HOBS AAM with a range of 20-30 km is the key here.



J-10C has already used the near BVR in exercises against Sino-Flankers. Basically use LPI mode on radar to gauge general location of enemy aircraft without detection and then cue with IRST and fire missile without opponent noticing. It is not invincible though. Once the flanker pilots got involved with folks at CETC and figured out how to use their EW suite to the fullest potential they managed to counter this tactic pretty easily.

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## FuturePAF

Horse_Rider said:


> The PAF doesn't have $ 50 M laying around for ONE tanker purchase. Also, the combat theater we are in (within minutes of each other's airbases, literally), there isn't enough time to refuel more than one formation of 3 jets as we lack depth. Our deepest point is just 500 KM that's reachable through VLBVR missiles within 3-4 minutes during conflict.
> 
> So the best solution may be to acquire a few multirole Y-8 - Y-9's and spread them out for sector based tanker support during conflict.



1. I said in my earlier post the Y-30 would have to be around $35-40 million. Acquiring tankers would depend on our economy, just like all other procurements we are thinking about. The Y-9 can hold only 25,000 lb while the proposed Y-30 can hold closer to 40,000 lb of payload. The price difference wouldn’t be as much between these two. Btw, the IL-78 can hold around 85,000 lb of cargo, but probably costs more then double a Y-9 or Y-30. Now if the Y-9 is more affordable on a tons/million basis, then I agree the Y-9 should be procured.
2. *We* may lack depth, but it doesn’t mean we have to operate that way…
3. The enemy would fire BVR missiles when they think they have a higher likelihood of shooting down the target, not at their max range.
4. Fighters use up a lot of fuel to get airborne, refueling them from safer air space and surging them in unison can be a tactic the PAF can employ to maintain high sortie numbers to deal with the enemy’s numerical advantage.
5. Smaller tankers (but not too small) allow more to be procured for the same price as one large tanker and the lose of one in combat won’t be as much of an effect on the mission as would the loss of a large IL-78. Besides, the Il-78 would be detected at a further range then a Y-9 or Y-30. These turboprops could also operate from smaller air strips Making their operations more resilient then a large tanker.
6. There is no substitute for air to air refueling for maritime operations.
7. Not just fighters, but other special mission aircraft can be refueled in the air, allow the time on station to be extended. This would apply to EW platforms as well as AWACS.

The Y-30 is suppose to be the size of the A-400M.

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## tphuang

siegecrossbow said:


> This article conclusively answers the seeming conundrum of J-20 pilots stating that their aircraft is easy to fly but hard to master. Like the J-10C, the J-20 is easy to handle/maneuver but since the plane generates so much information, mastering how to best operate the plane in combat situation is difficult. Kudos to Pakistanis pilots for mastering such a bird in such a short period of time.
> 
> One other interesting tidbit is the claim that J-10C is semi-stealth. This is inline with leaked information from the Zhurihe Parade a couple of years back where ground radar operators were specifically warned that J-10C (clean) and J-20 (even with lunesburg lens) are difficult to track and require multiple systems covering all the angles for safety purposes. J-16/J-11B do not have this issue.



Keep in mind that J-10C is considered by US military to be almost LO, but that also has to be put in the context where China has a whole variety of EW assets flying around. PAF can achieve similar level of LO only if it buys some EW aircraft from China.

I see that as more important than more AWACS.

I'd be curious to hear from PAF side on whether their F-16s can even pick up J-10C from more than 30 to 40 km out.

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh, if there's a JF-17 Block-4, it'd be a smaller upgrade to the Block-3. I don't think the PAF will invest any further in the JF-17 airframe (besides maybe changing the engine to the WS-13). If it needs more range or payload, it'll procure more J-10CEs.
> 
> Otherwise, for what it is (i.e., a lightweight multirole fighter), the JF-17 does the job and some more.
> 
> The only "big" change I can see the PAF pushing for in the JF-17 is adding an integrated IRST. This assumes the PAF moves ahead with the 'Near BVR' concept, i.e., using the IRST as the primary awareness system at up to 40 km and, in turn, using the PL-10E at around 20-30 km out (@SQ8).
> 
> Basically, the idea behind 'Near BVR' is that you have the longest stick within the distance most of your real-life engagements will take place. It's basically the area where you'll want to neutralize every enemy air asset while exposing as little from your end as possible.
> 
> I think a really good IRST system that can cue a HOBS AAM with a range of 20-30 km is the key here.


We have 130 odd Block 1s and 2s. Block 3 is still not fully online. I remember the changes to the central fuel line to incorporate IFR took 18 months of redesigning. The block 3 has been ready since last year when the air frames were demonstrated, waiting for additional capabilities and testing before integration. So the prospect of a Block four with Delta canard is a dream too far( I known you did not raise this question). IRST on Block 1-2's will have to be via centre line pod unless chin modifications can be carried out to earlier blocks to incorporate chin mounted Hard point (I am assuming NOT!).I assume PAF takes the view point that there are general duty work horses (Block 1-2) capable of carrying out air interdictions and BVR engagements. Block 3 could be a specialized aircraft mission driven for specific purposes??. With AWACs and interplane secure comms how do these planes function ?? So in short we have more questions than answers.
A

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## Sinnerman108

siegecrossbow said:


> This article conclusively answers the seeming conundrum of J-20 pilots stating that their aircraft is easy to fly but hard to master. Like the J-10C, the J-20 is easy to handle/maneuver but since the plane generates so much information, mastering how to best operate the plane in combat situation is difficult*. Kudos to Pakistanis pilots for mastering such a bird in such a short period of time.*
> 
> One other interesting tidbit is the claim that J-10C is semi-stealth. This is inline with leaked information from the Zhurihe Parade a couple of years back where ground radar operators were specifically warned that J-10C (clean) and J-20 (even with lunesburg lens) are difficult to track and require multiple systems covering all the angles for safety purposes. J-16/J-11B do not have this issue.



That statement is inaccurate and an overstatement. 

The principle of flight generates a LOT of information, 
the pilot doesn't need all the information 
The pilot needs only the information that takes him to the next step. 
The pilot needs all the RIGHT information, in the right format.

It is the job of the flight controller and human machine interface designers 
to ensure that pilot if never overloaded with information, yet he has all the 
right information at his tips. 

Developing such interfaces takes decades of flight data, pilot interviews and coupling 
this information together in a fashion that technology can reasonably support. 

J-10 is relatively baby, compared to maybe the F-16 or F-15s .. where the americans have 
analyzed it's flight envelope, it's characteristics and then asked pilots how best they can 
assimilate and process that information. 

Regards.

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## siegecrossbow

tphuang said:


> Keep in mind that J-10C is considered by US military to be almost LO, but that also has to be put in the context where China has a whole variety of EW assets flying around. PAF can achieve similar level of LO only if it buys some EW aircraft from China.
> 
> I see that as more important than more AWACS.
> 
> I'd be curious to hear from PAF side on whether their F-16s can even pick up J-10C from more than 30 to 40 km out.



Frontally, maybe, but with external load and at different angles it’ll no doubt be easier to pick up.

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## Deino

Via https://secondtononepaf.com/2022/11/08/enter-the-dragon-beginning-of-a-new-era/

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## siegecrossbow

Clairvoyant said:


> The crews were taken aback after engaging afterburner (AB). The kick was bigger than the F-16. “There was an unbelievable amount of thrust when I opened up the afterburner for the first time. The J-10C can produce 29,000 lb thrust, which is 10,000 lbs excess thrust than the JF-17 produces, and as much power as two and a half Mirages put together. A single Mirage produces 14,000 lb thrust,” Sqn Ldr Jibran Rashid said. The speed increment was so fast that post-take-off procedures had to be executed in rapid succession to remain with the aircraft.​



Looks like first impression with WS-10B engine is a positive one.

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## PakFactor

siegecrossbow said:


> Looks like first impression with WS-10B engine is a positive one.



That and it's good to know the pilots manning J-10Cs are from various backgrounds, previously flying F-16s, Mirages, etc., so their opinions hold more weight than someone from just an F-7 and moving to J-10C.

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## siegecrossbow

PakFactor said:


> That and it's good to know the pilots manning J-10Cs are from various backgrounds, previously flying F-16s, Mirages, etc., so their opinions hold more weight than someone from just an F-7 and moving to J-10C.



Indeed, it is compared directly with the F-16 and the comparison is favorable.

One of my concerns about the J-10C with WS-10 is that additional weight of upgraded radar/avionics and other bells and whistles may cause degradation in flight performance. Looks like that is unfounded.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

I am not sure if it is a repeat!

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh, if there's a JF-17 Block-4, it'd be a smaller upgrade to the Block-3. I don't think the PAF will invest any further in the JF-17 airframe (besides maybe changing the engine to the WS-13). If it needs more range or payload, it'll procure more J-10CEs.
> 
> Otherwise, for what it is (i.e., a lightweight multirole fighter), the JF-17 does the job and some more.
> 
> The only "big" change I can see the PAF pushing for in the JF-17 is adding an integrated IRST. This assumes the PAF moves ahead with the 'Near BVR' concept, i.e., using the IRST as the primary awareness system at up to 40 km and, in turn, using the PL-10E at around 20-30 km out (@SQ8).
> 
> Basically, the idea behind 'Near BVR' is that you have the longest stick within the distance most of your real-life engagements will take place. It's basically the area where you'll want to neutralize every enemy air asset while exposing as little from your end as possible.
> 
> I think a really good IRST system that can cue a HOBS AAM with a range of 20-30 km is the key here.


I think the biggest issue with the JF is that Pakistan’s economy never kept up to the program. I’ve mentioned earlier how the PAF was struggling to pay the loans on just the basic program itself let alone any new airframes and improvements some ten years ago - while some cash inflow came in that did no impact to the time needed to make those changes.

Also, as the threat environment changed so did some of the requirements. The early block-I JF-17s could hold their own against a MKI but would struggle against the updated M2KI - then there was the baited breath on the Rafale saga. As soon as it was clear from HUMINT who the IAF was going to select there were changes needed to the ASR to reflect it.

One needs to do a collective bow of thanks to the Indians themselves of their repeated shooting in their own foot as far as their procurement processes go. Otherwise the PAF would really have to revise ASR and buy better capabilities directly instead of upgrading the JF-17.

The J-10 saga isn’t new either - the PAF looked at the J-10A and requested a list of improvements but wanted to focus it as a strike fighter. Then when many were of those improvements were taken in stride by CAC and they made the J-10B the PAF had no funds for it. Then as feedback ok what the PLAAF needed poured in so did the PAF reps at CAC give their based on what they were hearing from friendly countries on the Rafale and other platforms.

The passive cueing is good on paper for the PL-10 but not sure how well it would apply in real life for the short skirmishes . Considering a lot of initial eastern border engagements are VID dependent it likely will be the ability to deter any incursion in the first place.

If any target from the east realizes they are being locked on 70km out from an aircraft it will have them under consternation from the get go.

Also, I am not totally bought into the semi LO aspect because at the end the limit will be the highest radiated amount and while there is a lower RCS involved it doesn’t mean its comparable to a J-20.



siegecrossbow said:


> J-16/J-11B do not have this issue.


The issue is that flanker variants in general are excellent reflectors for radar and shoot a big RCS out. The Su-35 purchase was done to address what attempts sukhoi has made to reduce the RCS but even that has not been sufficient. Too many flat angles and 90 degree surfaces to send nice returns back.

Compound that with the Canards on the MKi and its even worse than a J-16. A basic airfield radar can mistakenly call the MKI a Airbus A320 because they are close enough

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## tphuang

SQ8 said:


> I think the biggest issue with the JF is that Pakistan’s economy never kept up to the program. I’ve mentioned earlier how the PAF was struggling to pay the loans on just the basic program itself let alone any new airframes and improvements some ten years ago - while some cash inflow came in that did no impact to the time needed to make those changes.
> 
> Also, as the threat environment changed so did some of the requirements. The early block-I JF-17s could hold their own against a MKI but would struggle against the updated M2KI - then there was the baited breath on the Rafale saga. As soon as it was clear from HUMINT who the IAF was going to select there were changes needed to the ASR to reflect it.
> 
> One needs to do a collective bow of thanks to the Indians themselves of their repeated shooting in their own foot as far as their procurement processes go. Otherwise the PAF would really have to revise ASR and buy better capabilities directly instead of upgrading the JF-17.
> 
> The J-10 saga isn’t new either - the PAF looked at the J-10A and requested a list of improvements but wanted to focus it as a strike fighter. Then when many were of those improvements were taken in stride by CAC and they made the J-10B the PAF had no funds for it. Then as feedback ok what the PLAAF needed poured in so did the PAF reps at CAC give their based on what they were hearing from friendly countries on the Rafale and other platforms.
> 
> The passive cueing is good on paper for the PL-10 but not sure how well it would apply in real life for the short skirmishes . Considering a lot of initial eastern border engagements are VID dependent it likely will be the ability to deter any incursion in the first place.
> 
> If any target from the east realizes they are being locked on 70km out from an aircraft it will have them under consternation from the get go.
> 
> Also, I am not totally bought into the semi LO aspect because at the end the limit will be the highest radiated amount and while there is a lower RCS involved it doesn’t mean its comparable to a J-20.
> 
> 
> The issue is that flanker variants in general are excellent reflectors for radar and shoot a big RCS out. The Su-35 purchase was done to address what attempts sukhoi has made to reduce the RCS but even that has not been sufficient. Too many flat angles and 90 degree surfaces to send nice returns back.
> 
> Compound that with the Canards on the MKi and its even worse than a J-16. A basic airfield radar can mistakenly call the MKI a Airbus A320 because they are close enough



my contact (and I won't divulge further background here) says that USAF E-3C has trouble locking on to PLAAF J-10Cs. It has really good emission control and EW suite.

He also said that even with F-16V, its bus speed, subsystem integration and EW suite makes it way less competitive than J-10C.

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## m52k85

tphuang said:


> my contact (and I won't divulge further background here) says that USAF E-3C has trouble locking on to PLAAF J-10Cs. It has really good emission control and EW suite.
> 
> He also said that even with F-16V, its bus speed, subsystem integration and EW suite makes it way less competitive than J-10C.


beta E3C dont lock Sh*t

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## SQ8

tphuang said:


> my contact (and I won't divulge further background here) says that USAF E-3C has trouble locking on to PLAAF J-10Cs. It has really good emission control and EW suite.
> 
> He also said that even with F-16V, its bus speed, subsystem integration and EW suite makes it way less competitive than J-10C.


The E-3C doesn’t lock on - it does track targets but the kit on the E-3C is actually fairly old and of late 90s vintage so not exactly the best benchmark. 
ESA systems like those on the E-7 wedgetail or even the Pakistani Erieyes do a better job than a E-3C

I disagree on the “way less” competitive aspect with the F-16V so lets agree to disagree

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## Trango Towers

Deino said:


> This is what I got from the text above via Google Lens:
> 
> View attachment 899421


I don't get what the camo has to do with ground attack. The point of camo is to make it difficult for the enemy to spot visually. That really is no longer necessary


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## tphuang

SQ8 said:


> The E-3C doesn’t lock on - it does track targets but the kit on the E-3C is actually fairly old and of late 90s vintage so not exactly the best benchmark.
> ESA systems like those on the E-7 wedgetail or even the Pakistani Erieyes do a better job than a E-3C
> 
> I disagree on the “way less” competitive aspect with the F-16V so lets agree to disagree


track, whatever you want to call it. I don't quite recall his exact phrasing here, but basically you don't want to use E-3C to find J-10C.

wrt F-16V, remember that J-10A to J-10B went through a huge redesign of interior in order to accommodate a new avionics architecture, data bus, heat management and MMI that serves as a testbed for J-20. So in terms of amount of data it can provide to pilot, I'm not surprised it impressed upon PAF pilots. F-16V on the other hand didn't go through an interior redesign from C/D.

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## MastanKhan

Clairvoyant said:


> Not sure if it has been posted before but quite a nice article in "Second to None" magazine on induction of J.10.​​Enter the Dragon Beginning of a New Era​November 8, 2022 Editor by Air Cdre Muhammad Ali
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Earlier in March, a new shape took to the skies over Pakistan. Six J-10Cs, bearing the tail numbers 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, and 106, entered Pakistan via PURPA (waypoint) on the northeastern border with China. Precise and lethal equipped with canards, delta wing design, a soaring 4.5 generation Omni-role, all-weather-capable jet – PAF’s ‘Vigorous Dragon’ had arrived to safeguard the country’s future for years to come. The scenes were reminiscent of 1968, when six French Mirage fighters, tail numbers ranging from 101 to 106 entered Pakistani airspace. Leading the formation was Wg Cdr MM Alam. Sqn Ldr Hakimullah, Sqn Ldr Farooq F Khan, Sqn Ldr Farooq Umar, Flt Lt Arif Manzoor, and Flt Lt Akhtar Rao, flew at his wings. Fast forward to 2022. Leading the formation of Dragons was OC No 15 Sqn, Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim Shehzada. Wg Cdr Bilal Raza, Sqn Ldr Jibran Rashid, Sqn Ldr Hasan Anees, Sqn Ldr Zeeshan Muhammad, Sqn Ldr Ali Qasim, flew on the wings of their leader. The formation is on its way to Kamra from Chengdu. Back at PAF Base Minhas, the air is rife with energy. A sense of excitement and pride runs through all, gathered at the occasion to welcome the Dragons. All eyes are glued towards the beginning of the runway to catch the first glance of Dragons about to appear for landing. Assembled on the tarmac of the base is the senior leadership of PAF under its honorable leader, ACM Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, the CAS PAF. Finally, the historic moment had arrived. First Dragon bearing Serial No 101, flown by Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim appeared on the scene. The six J-10Cs touched down at PAF Base Minhas at Kamra. Senior air officials observing from the tarmac breathed a sigh of relief and applauded the perfect landings. As the aircraft appeared on the tarmac, a water canon salute was presented to the incoming Dragons, a tradition followed to welcome the arrival of new aircraft at a facility. Before Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim could disembark and line up his crew for presentation, he found Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, climbing the ladder, to greet him. “Does the plane live up to our expectations?” asked the smiling Air Chief. “I’ll have to admit, it is one of the best fighter jets in the world. With all the work we had been doing in China over the months, improving our tactics in the way we operate the platform, I can safely say that the capability that we have brought back with us is truly phenomenal, far better than what we expected, sir,” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim responded. It’s a significant investment, but in defense, nothing comes cheap. The J-10C is a cutting-edge platform, moving the PAF into a new ball game in terms of operational readiness, in terms of the nature of the platform the PAF was acquiring. When the “Second to None” team spoke with ground crews and the pilots, it was fair to say that the J-10C was a step in the right direction, something that the PAF had been working towards for a long time. It was just fantastic to see them arrive, having traveled all the way from China. It was a thing of beauty. Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force maintained that the induction of the Dragons highlighted the fact that the investments the air force made in capabilities and in capacity was significant. “The fact that we will be flying the J-10C makes a statement that PAF, has significant defense capability and is willing to do its part in the world, and is willing to meet its obligations,” the Air Chief said during the arrival ceremony of the jets at PAF Base Minhas, where the enthusiasm was contagious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Taming the Dragon*
> To get trained on J-10Cs and later ferry the Dragons from China, a team of professionals including both pilots and ground crew was shortlisted. Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim Shahzada, who has flown F-16s and Mirages was given the honor of leading the contingent to China in October 2021. His team boasted skilled F-16, JF-17, and Mirage pilots, familiar with Beyond Visual Range (BVR), and had AI exposure. Following strict covid protocols, the team traveled in three groups over a span of three weeks. Gp Capt Azkaar from Project Dragon handled logistics, overseeing departure formalities, flight cancellations due to covid, and preparing backups for dropouts. Upon landing in China, on 20 October, the crews were quarantined in the city of arrival for 14 days. On the second last day of the quarantine, Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim tested positive. The rest were cleared to depart to Chengdu, where they were quarantined for another two weeks. Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim spent, in all, 72 days in quarantine before he could join his teammates who had already started their training. The training was focused specifically on operating the J-10C. “In Chengdu, we were basically starting to learn how to fly this technologically advanced jet, and then we went through all the different mission sets and basic skills,” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim said. Most of the pilot’s instructions came on the ground, in the classrooms followed by pilots practicing the aircraft’s most unique capabilities in an advanced simulator. The language was a major barrier, which the PAF crew overcame with the help of an interpreter. After classes, PAF pilots used to sit down to reconcile information on their own. No time to enjoy and see China. They were trained directly by the original equipment manufacturers (OEM), and by Chinese counterparts with perhaps a few more flying hours under their belts. A few days of theoretical sessions were followed by quizzes. During training, it was crucial that pilots got comfortable executing J-10C maneuvers. Hence, simulator training started in detail, learning avionics, switchology, feel of controls was extremely realistic, engine handling, and the response of controls – allowing to recreate emergencies and procedures in the aircraft that really simulate what it would be like to fly in a real J-10C. Each PAF pilot had to complete the prescribed number of sorties in the simulator as a minimum syllabus requirement, only then they could be allowed in the new jet. Anything they could do in an aircraft they could in the simulator – max rate turns, vertical climbs weapon employment techniques, etc. “A lot of people underestimate the amount of work it takes to become a pilot, and a fighter pilot specifically. A one-hour flight, even in a simulator might mean up to several additional hours of the briefing, gearing up, flight inspections, and debriefings, not to mention the hours spent studying/preparing for each mission,” said Wg Cdr Bilal Raza emphasizes the importance of training. Finally, the day arrived when the crew had the opportunity to have the first look at the aircraft. The PAF crew were in awe of the jet when they first set their eyes on the Dragon. The first thing they noticed was its huge size, slightly different shape, and looks as compared to weapon systems they had already flown. “It was a fantastic feeling and we were in love with the bird at first sight,” Wg Cdr Bilal Raza said. “It’s one of the world’s most advanced fighter aircraft and we’re lucky to be a part of that program in the PAF, and to be at the leading edge of that is a real privilege and real delight,” Wg Cdr Bilal Raza added, enthusiastic to feel how it would handle in the air, and wanting to experience its agility and maneuverability. At Chengdu, it was the job of Chinese instructors to teach PAF pilots how to fly the J-10C from scratch. The Chinese were nervous, at first, fearing the guest crew would not be able to hack it. “This wasn’t like college where we could get through with minimum passing grades. We had to attain almost 100% to qualify in each and every phase, there were no let-ups. We were expected to catch on to material we were taught really quickly, the learning curve had definitely been pretty steep,” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim recalled. The instructors worked overtime, and gave up a week of Chinese New Year holidays to train PAF pilots – no compromises to achieve minimum standards.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The First Mission*
> After all the tedious groundwork – learning about aerodynamics, aircraft systems, navigation, and instrument flying, it was time to get a feel of the jet. PAF crews spent two days climbing into the cockpit, strapping up, and developing equipment familiarization. Each pilot performed ground starts, after start procedures, followed by shut down, slow/medium taxi came later. some of the pilots progressed while the remaining continued on the simulator. “Finally, we had all the gear on, and after months of preparation, it was time to go flying. Of course, a thorough briefing before flight, and supervisor checks were performed so that everything was in order in order before getting airborne.” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim said. Since the PAF airmen had not flown for a long period and they needed to regain their flying currency. They jumped into K-8s to get used to the Gs, get currency, and understand wind patterns and operating areas. Before stepping foot in the J-10C cockpit, student pilots needed to familiarize themselves with the gear needed to operate the J-10C, in their custom-made G suits to fit perfectly. Last but not the least, the pilots learned to utilize the most technologically advanced piece of equipment, their helmets. The pilot’s Heads-Up Display was directly projected on the visor rather than just at the front of the cockpit. This allowed pilots to easily view key data such as altitude, air speed, and direction and even select multiple targets and shoot. “Since the jet helps us so much, flying becomes second nature. That way we can focus on all the information that the plane is giving us,” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim elaborated. “It’s amazing to be in a 4.5 generation semi-stealth fighter, kind of tip of the spear. It’s a heavily weighted aircraft, in terms of combat power, that the PAF brings to the fight,” Sqn Ldr Jibran Rashid said. One part of history was achieved when Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim flew the first solo sortie of the Dragon. “A lot of the challenge was trying to absorb all the information the jet is giving you, operate all the sensors and the systems at the same time, and fly, the feeling was enormous,” the team leader said. All the PAF pilots enjoyed basic handling, and confidence-building maneuvers in advanced handling missions, and in clean and tanked configurations both. This was followed by training in air combat tactics and instructor training for some of the PAF aircrew. The crews were taken aback after engaging afterburner (AB). The kick was bigger than the F-16. “There was an unbelievable amount of thrust when I opened up the afterburner for the first time. The J-10C can produce 29,000 lb thrust, which is 10,000 lbs excess thrust than the JF-17 produces, and as much power as two and a half Mirages put together. A single Mirage produces 14,000 lb thrust,” Sqn Ldr Jibran Rashid said. The speed increment was so fast that post-take-off procedures had to be executed in rapid succession to remain with the aircraft. Once in the air, handling the jet was not the most difficult aspect, Wg Cdr Bilal Raza said adding, “It is actually a really easy plane to fly, the aircraft comes with Voice Recognition Capability which makes your life much easy.” Nonetheless, the pilots flew at 26,000 ft, did general steep turns, building up Gs gradually, performed straight in approach, accessed information through voice commands such as requesting fuel state, hands-on throttle and stick (HOTAS) on most actions, instrument approach, close pattern, low go, and deploying drag shoot and making a full stop landing comfortably within 3, 500 to 4, 000 ft on a 7,500 ft runway. “It was historic and emotional for Pakistanis and Chinese both when we landed safely for the first time. We were presented with bouquets,” Wg Cdr Bilal Raza said.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dragons Ferry*
> After six months of trials and tribulations, it was time to ferry the first batch of six J-10C Dragons, back home. From here on, life would never be the same. The crew set down to plan the ferry mission in the minutest details. They needed answers to all the questions, what selecting diversionary airfields, protocols in case of emergency, what is the enroute weather like, etc. Crossing over the Karakorum range was no easy job, it needed perfect and flawless planning which the crew did. Finally, came the ferry day. The aircraft was topped up with required fuel and three external tanks each was fitted to the ferry aircraft. Six Dragons under Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim started up and headed for the take-off point. After Burners on, six aircraft started to roll on the Chengdu runway, off to motherland. Getting airborne, the leader looked around to see if the rest of his section were with him. Climbed up to cruise height and followed the planned route. “It was a proud day, a proud moment for all of us. We knew that we were making history, the feeling was nostalgic. The ferry was eventless, and the weather was good. As we entered the Karakorums we were amazed to see the beauty of the landscape. We flew abreast of the K-2, towering 28000 feet plus the second highest peak in the world. As soon as the six J-10C jets entered Pakistani air space, an escort F-16 from No 9 Sqn ‘Griffins’, joined the formation of the Dragons. “Welcome back boys,” the pilot of the Fighting Falcon, call sign Griffin-1 said over the radio. Bit of a homecoming for the PAF. As soon as we established radio contact with Pakistani ATC radar we were greeted enthusiastically. “Dragon-1, welcome home,” replied the ground controller on the radio. The six new jets, tail numbered 101 to 106, landed at PAF Base Minhas at Kamra, the material and logistical base of the new No 15 Sqn. The PAF crews had achieved a milestone that very few others could. Tremendous investment had been made at Kamra, which has been a key base for many years. A fantastic new chapter in the country’s military capabilities and history. What it said in many ways is that after the induction of this state-of-the-art, modern, and potent weapons system, the PAF is now operating in a much stronger and more efficient manner, thanks to these Dragons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *By
> Air Cdre Muhammad Ali SI(M) &
> S.Khalil *


Hi,

Thank you for an excellent find---. Indeed the J-10 C is not an ordinary aircraft and it was the right step forward for the Paf---.


The true surprise in the package for the readers of this article is the earnest manner in that the writer has written about the machine and the narrated experience of the one who trained on it and flew on it---.

I would say that in the next 6 months of further intensive training and flight---this same group would have a lot more to say about this aircraft and its capabilities---.

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## serenity

Good read. Thank you for sharing the article. As much politics and bias would be present in it, it is good to see PAF committing to J-10C platform showing us that it is a fighter that is of satisfactory performance to PAF, an airforce with the highest demand for fighter capability given its restrictions (no access yet to 5th generation fighters).

Hope that PAF will be training hard and continuously on J-10C and in years time the pilots, crews, and tactics are built to top notch level.

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## SQ8

tphuang said:


> track, whatever you want to call it. I don't quite recall his exact phrasing here, but basically you don't want to use E-3C to find J-10C.
> 
> wrt F-16V, remember that J-10A to J-10B went through a huge redesign of interior in order to accommodate a new avionics architecture, data bus, heat management and MMI that serves as a testbed for J-20. So in terms of amount of data it can provide to pilot, I'm not surprised it impressed upon PAF pilots. F-16V on the other hand didn't go through an interior redesign from C/D.


That also has to do with the upgradeability need - the J-10B cannot be upgraded to the C.
The F-16C can become the V. 
But in terms of avionics it does carry a comparable kit and has RCS reduction as well.

Either way, the only way to get a true gauge is if the PAF gets the V upgrades or new builds. Otherwise it is all speculation

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## PakFactor

siegecrossbow said:


> Indeed, it is compared directly with the F-16 and the comparison is favorable.
> 
> One of my concerns about the J-10C with WS-10 is that additional weight of upgraded radar/avionics and other bells and whistles may cause degradation in flight performance. Looks like that is unfounded.



I have to see; if I remember correctly, the Chinese were working on an AESA radar with a GNH transmitter, etc., that gives the same capabilities but eats less power. Plus, the miniaturization of chips and other things will balance out in the long run.

On the other hand, we might see an upgraded version of WS-10 down the road to accommodate the extra power needed.

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## tphuang

SQ8 said:


> That also has to do with the upgradeability need - the J-10B cannot be upgraded to the C.
> The F-16C can become the V.
> But in terms of avionics it does carry a comparable kit and has RCS reduction as well.
> 
> Either way, the only way to get a true gauge is if the PAF gets the V upgrades or new builds. Otherwise it is all speculation



why can't J-10B not be upgraded to C? What's your proof for that?

I can't control PAF if they want to make dumb decisions, but F-16V wouldn't do well against J-10C.

If I was PAF, I'd ask China if I can get some used J-10A with avionics upgrade for low cost. A lot of them are headed to early retirement.


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## SQ8

tphuang said:


> why can't J-10B not be upgraded to C? What's your proof for that?
> 
> I can't control PAF if they want to make dumb decisions, but F-16V wouldn't do well against J-10C.
> 
> If I was PAF, I'd ask China if I can get some used J-10A with avionics upgrade for low cost. A lot of them are headed to early retirement.


You just outlined why it is an entirely different jet with completely redesigned interior. So either you are wrong or really the J-10 was not made for easy upgrades with total redesign on every block.

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## Horse_Rider

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh, if there's a JF-17 Block-4, it'd be a smaller upgrade to the Block-3. I don't think the PAF will invest any further in the JF-17 airframe (besides maybe changing the engine to the WS-13). If it needs more range or payload, it'll procure more J-10CEs.
> 
> Otherwise, for what it is (i.e., a lightweight multirole fighter), the JF-17 does the job and some more.
> 
> The only "big" change I can see the PAF pushing for in the JF-17 is adding an integrated IRST. This assumes the PAF moves ahead with the 'Near BVR' concept, i.e., using the IRST as the primary awareness system at up to 40 km and, in turn, using the PL-10E at around 20-30 km out (@SQ8).
> 
> Basically, the idea behind 'Near BVR' is that you have the longest stick within the distance most of your real-life engagements will take place. It's basically the area where you'll want to neutralize every enemy air asset while exposing as little from your end as possible.
> 
> I think a really good IRST system that can cue a HOBS AAM with a range of 20-30 km is the key here.



My theory was calling for JFT block III to stop further production after the current block III order finishes. Block 4 would really be a J-10CP called JFT block 4 with local assembly / ToT in Pakistan so we can license build like Turkey did to the F-16's, AND, use our industrial capability in the future around this new "JFT block 4" (J-10C with local assembly) for AZM also.

I expect 5th gen platform to have a mix of Chinese and Turkish tech. So in house production of this JFT block 4 would help a lot as we can integrate both Chinese and Turkish tech as well and use these airframes as test bed for stealth.

PL-10 has near BVR and HOBS. So the current JFT only needs IR module and processor. The space may be an issue? otherwise the J-10CP sensors would work also due to common tech baseline.


FuturePAF said:


> 2. *We* may lack depth, but it doesn’t mean we have to operate that way…
> 
> 
> The Y-30 is suppose to be the size of the A-400M.



There is no "may" here. We lack strategic depth, period. ALL strategic and operational plans in Pak military (or any military) are made knowing real facts about their geography. The comment above saying "it doesn't mean we have to operate that way" is beyond my comprehension. If we don't build our military strategy per our geographical situation, what are we defending?

Results of NOT assessing your geographical reality to create a proper strategy results in "Russia vs. Ukraine", loss of over 100,000 soldier's lives, half the conventional combat power of Russia gone and $ 8-10 billion worth of equipment totally destroyed so far!

Y-30 is too big for refueling needs, but can play a dual role (cargo / transport / refuel like IL-76 does). I think Y-8 / Y-9 may be better. Y-8 is already operated by the PAF so the PAF knows how to maintain it.

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## sparten

SQ8 said:


> You just outlined why it is an entirely different jet with completely redesigned interior. So either you are wrong or really the J-10 was not made for easy upgrades with total redesign on every block.


Why would the PAF accept a jet it turned down 20 years ago.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Tank131

Horse_Rider said:


> My theory was calling for JFT block III to stop further production after the current block III order finishes. Block 4 would really be a J-10CP called JFT block 4 with local assembly / ToT in Pakistan so we can license build like Turkey did to the F-16's, AND, use our industrial capability in the future around this new "JFT block 4" (J-10C with local assembly) for AZM also.
> 
> I expect 5th gen platform to have a mix of Chinese and Turkish tech. So in house production of this JFT block 4 would help a lot as we can integrate both Chinese and Turkish tech as well and use these airframes as test bed for stealth.
> 
> PL-10 has near BVR and HOBS. So the current JFT only needs IR module and processor. The space may be an issue? otherwise the J-10CP sensors would work also due to common tech baseline.
> 
> 
> There is no "may" here. We lack strategic depth, period. ALL strategic and operational plans in Pak military (or any military) are made knowing real facts about their geography. The comment above saying "it doesn't mean we have to operate that way" is beyond my comprehension. If we don't build our military strategy per our geographical situation, what are we defending?
> 
> Results of NOT assessing your geographical reality to create a proper strategy results in "Russia vs. Ukraine", loss of over 100,000 soldier's lives, half the conventional combat power of Russia gone and $ 8-10 billion worth of equipment totally destroyed so far!
> 
> Y-30 is too big for refueling needs, but can play a dual role (cargo / transport / refuel like IL-76 does). I think Y-8 / Y-9 may be better. Y-8 is already operated by the PAF so the PAF knows how to maintain it.


Stop trying to refer to J-10CE as block 4. Its a weak attempt to stroke the ego. Not fooling anyone and achieves no logistical benefits. They are completely different aircraft. No need to conflate the 2. 

As for Pakistani FGFA, i dont see any unique or independent project coming to fruition. ALL signs point to PAF jumping into J-35 or a TFX

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## tphuang

SQ8 said:


> You just outlined why it is an entirely different jet with completely redesigned interior. So either you are wrong or really the J-10 was not made for easy upgrades with total redesign on every block.


no, I said there was a major upgrade from J-10A to J-10B. J-10B to J-10C changes were minor.

J-10A itself can still be upgraded to have AESA radar, but the effect will be similar to the upgrade that USAF is planning for block 40/50 F-16s.


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## SQ8

sparten said:


> Why would the PAF accept a jet it turned down 20 years ago.


Where do you get the idea it turned down the jet?

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Long long time ago I stated on this forum that if the Paf went for the J-10---the things would change---. I did not realize then what I was claiming---.

Within months---the prime minister is de-seated----the Paf has made an about turn from the F-16-s and is focused on the J-10's---and uncle sam is not happy about it.

What we learnt from this article written a few days ago---uncle sam knew about it before we did----.


Paf will not let go of the F-16 just because it is inferior to the J-10---. It will stick to it because it because it gives its pilots exposure to world air forces in combat excercizes---.

Secondly---it has 100's of pilots---thousands of support staff---100's of million dollars in equipment and billions in weapons---.

Next---to reach the overall same tier of expertise on the j-10 as it is on the F16's---the Paf pilots & techs are going to take another 2-5 years

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## sparten

SQ8 said:


> Where do you get the idea it turned down the jet?


DM me.


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## Readerdefence

SQ8 said:


> That also has to do with the upgradeability need - the J-10B cannot be upgraded to the C.
> The F-16C can become the V.
> But in terms of avionics it does carry a comparable kit and has RCS reduction as well.
> 
> Either way, the only way to get a true gauge is if the PAF gets the V upgrades or new builds. Otherwise it is all speculation


Hi another way to gauge it easily is chinese way as china can field J10cs against Taiwan f16v & I’m sure Chinese might have already access it or will get there soon if not now as most of the time they keep on pushing their awacs and multiple fighters across the line towards Taiwan 
thank you

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## CivilianSupremacy

tphuang said:


> I can't control PAF if they want to make dumb decisions, but F-16V wouldn't do well against J-10C.



Getting into technical details is futile. That's not the choice at all. Pakistan will never receive F-16Vs at first place. This is a political reality. We all need to be aware of it. PAF has to bet on J-10C (and its future versions) against the indian MMRCA acquisition (F-16V / Rafales / Gripen etc ) .

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## Deino



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## TaimiKhan

The best thing about Chinese defence industry is that they can roll out equipment at an unbelievable pace. 
Nearly a full sqd delivered and made operational within 1-1.5yr time period.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF J10C Somewhere in Pakistan

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## MastanKhan

TaimiKhan said:


> The best thing about Chinese defence industry is that they can roll out equipment at an unbelievable pace.
> Nearly a full sqd delivered and made operational within 1-1.5yr time period.



Hi,

Good to see that you are alive and kicking---.

J-10 production is a great feat---but a bigger feat is what the naval shipyards are churing out---the 054's and the 055's---.

Specially the 054's ---the speed they are building---that is a wonder in itself---.

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## Gripen9

Deino said:


> View attachment 901476
> 
> 
> View attachment 901479


So safe to say 113-119 atleast 6 will be in this camo scheme.

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## Abid123

TaimiKhan said:


> The best thing about Chinese defence industry is that they can roll out equipment at an unbelievable pace.
> Nearly a full sqd delivered and made operational within 1-1.5yr time period.


True. One could only Imagine how much equipment China could produce in war time. Their naval expansion might be the biggest in modern history. 

They are producing destroyers so fast they are running out of cities to name them after lol.

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## ozranger

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 901515


 Unintentional leak on the PLA version of PL-10 says it has a 60km maximum range. PL-10E on Zhuhai Airshow was advertised as with a 20km maximum range.

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## Tempest II

ozranger said:


> Unintentional leak on the PLA version of PL-10 says it has a 60km maximum range. PL-10E on Zhuhai Airshow was advertised as with a 20km maximum range.


Where?


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## Clairvoyant

The exact number of J.10's presently ordered is indeed 36 however the order has now been increased. Won't give the exact number but it has certainly been increased.

Next squadron that will convert to J.10's is 8 squadron which will move out of Masroor for the conversion.

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## m52k85

Clairvoyant said:


> The exact number of J.10's presently ordered is indeed 36 however the order has now been increased. Won't give the exact number but it has certainly been increased.
> 
> Next squadron that will convert to J.10's is 8 squadron which will move out of Masroor for the conversion.


Interesting that the non-Rose Mirages are going before the PGs.


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## TaimiKhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Good to see that you are alive and kicking---.
> 
> J-10 production is a great feat---but a bigger feat is what the naval shipyards are churing out---the 054's and the 055's---.
> 
> Specially the 054's ---the speed they are building---that is a wonder in itself---.


 
Aoa Sir, well and alive but due to professional workload and family unable to give full time. Those were the old days when used to be bachelors, less load of professional life and we had fun here. 

Times change. 

Yeah, their naval output is extraordinary, aircraft carriers, frigates, destroyers, heli carriers, type 71s, submarines etc etc. 

Same case with sir force new fighter jets, army tanks, helicopters of different kind, y-20s. 

And they are going for numbers as well as quality.

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## White privilege

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> PAF J10C Somewhere in Pakistan
> View attachment 901517


Would love to see J-10s at Qadri causing sleepless nights across the LOC.....

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## siegecrossbow

m52k85 said:


> Interesting that the non-Rose Mirages are going before the PGs.



They are older airframes. Many of the PGs are produced post 2000.


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## White privilege

m52k85 said:


> Interesting that the non-Rose Mirages are going before the PGs.





siegecrossbow said:


> They are older airframes. Many of the PGs are produced post 2000.


Will these _Deltas _be finally retired, or sent to #50 squadron instead??


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## Beast

siegecrossbow said:


> Looks like first impression with WS-10B engine is a positive one.


29000 pounds equal 13200kg power. More powerful than AL-31FN and F100-PW-229 engine


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## Deltadart

tphuang said:


> why can't J-10B not be upgraded to C? What's your proof for that?
> 
> I can't control PAF if they want to make dumb decisions, but F-16V wouldn't do well against J-10C.
> 
> If I was PAF, I'd ask China if I can get some used J-10A with avionics upgrade for low cost. A lot of them are headed to early retirement.


Now getting used J10As is an interesting idea. Can the seniors, experts here shed some light on the feasibility of this idea? @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## Horse_Rider

Tank131 said:


> Stop trying to refer to J-10CE as block 4. Its a weak attempt to stroke the ego. Not fooling anyone and achieves no logistical benefits. They are completely different aircraft. No need to conflate the 2.
> 
> As for Pakistani FGFA, i dont see any unique or independent project coming to fruition. ALL signs point to PAF jumping into J-35 or a TFX



What's up with "ego" comments? When you debate, you debate with logic.

The logic behind referring a POTENTIAL JFT block 4 is to refer to Pakistan's internal fighter jet umbrella program. Just like the fact that an F-16 can have a delta wing variant. It's up to the PAF's leadership to call it what they'd like.

In a fighter jet program, one version of a jet ("end product") can be an entirely new jet than the prior version, like how F-16 up to block 40 was really one plane but upgraded, then block 52, then block 70, yet used single engine engineering and borrowed tried and tested airframe. Thus, what could've been new, was kept under the F-16 umbrella. Same goes for F-15C/D/E, Sukhoi's, etc, etc.

If any Manufacturing / People / Process / Technology is being re-used, usually the "umbrella" program's name is kept.

On 5th gen fighter, the idea behind standardizing J-10CE's license manufacturing and airframe was also to gain ability to toy with it for 5th gen stealth design. The Chinese can build the airframe for Pakistan but at some point having an existing assembly of the J-10CP, the machine's can be re-tooled for 5th gen production using best of the both worlds (TFX / J-31 tech / weapons ). What I fear is Pakistan going down this path of procuring whatever it can get and at the end not able to sustain 5th gen platforms properly as they are complicated and very expensive. There is plenty of time to do it right and J-10CP would be a good start if it can be internalized with weapons from TFX / J-31 both integrated locally.

The Chinese are discontinuing the J-10C (or reducing future production capacity significantly as they need 5th gen and heavier jets). So it's a great opportunity for Pakistan to co-manufacture / assemble locally for much cheaper as economies of scale has already been achieved with this platform. The JFT airframe has it's limitations so it makes sense to stop after block III and standardize J-10CP for future assembly and later ToT with focus on going limited ToT / assembly of a stealth design internally in the future. Pakistan will need this industry locally for it's future and to save $$ as the country's dealing with the worst financial crises.

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## Tank131

Horse_Rider said:


> What's up with "ego" comments? When you debate, you debate with logic.
> 
> The logic behind referring a POTENTIAL JFT block 4 is to refer to Pakistan's internal fighter jet umbrella program. Just like the fact that an F-16 can have a delta wing variant. It's up to the PAF's leadership to call it what they'd like.
> 
> In a fighter jet program, one version of a jet ("end product") can be an entirely new jet than the prior version, like how F-16 up to block 40 was really one plane but upgraded, then block 52, then block 70, yet used single engine engineering and borrowed tried and tested airframe. Thus, what could've been new, was kept under the F-16 umbrella. Same goes for F-15C/D/E, Sukhoi's, etc, etc.
> 
> If any Manufacturing / People / Process / Technology is being re-used, usually the "umbrella" program's name is kept.
> 
> On 5th gen fighter, the idea behind standardizing J-10CE's license manufacturing and airframe was also to gain ability to toy with it for 5th gen stealth design. The Chinese can build the airframe for Pakistan but at some point having an existing assembly of the J-10CP, the machine's can be re-tooled for 5th gen production using best of the both worlds (TFX / J-31 tech / weapons ). What I fear is Pakistan going down this path of procuring whatever it can get and at the end not able to sustain 5th gen platforms properly as they are complicated and very expensive. There is plenty of time to do it right and J-10CP would be a good start if it can be internalized with weapons from TFX / J-31 both integrated locally.
> 
> The Chinese are discontinuing the J-10C (or reducing future production capacity significantly as they need 5th gen and heavier jets). So it's a great opportunity for Pakistan to co-manufacture / assemble locally for much cheaper as economies of scale has already been achieved with this platform. The JFT airframe has it's limitations so it makes sense to stop after block III and standardize J-10CP for future assembly and later ToT with focus on going limited ToT / assembly of a stealth design internally in the future. Pakistan will need this industry locally for it's future and to save $$ as the country's dealing with the worst financial crises.


The reason you would change the name has nothing to do with references to Pakistani manufacturers. It has zero bearing on the production lines or logistical supply chain. There is zero reasons that exist why you would need to change the name of an aircraft that (by that time) will have been operating under the name of J-10 in PAF for years. that will have any affect on its production and the logistics tied to it. The J-10CE, EVEN of built in Pakistan, will never be an internal project, and there is no need to refer to it as such. So it is irrational and illogical and making such a change is just pandering to the ego nothing more. This is not to say that J-10CE Line COULD not be set up, or even have the actual JFT line retooled as needed for J-10. BUT that is a separate discussion, though as i said seems uneconomical for just 70-100 fighters. If you are going to retool the line, it should be for a future project that Pakistan has some financial and R&D stake in (FGFA Like J-35 or TFX depending on what they decide). 

As for the delta wing F-16 variant of the F-16, you are referring to the F-16XL which was only ever a tech demonstrator. It was offered to USAF as a future strike fighter but was never serious contender. It was a mildly enlarged fuselage of the standard F-16 and replaced the dual delta with a cranked single delta. It was STILL and F-16, and NOT an entirely different aircraft. Same thing goes with the enlargement of gripen and even the redesign of F-18. These are modified and enlarged versions following a similar structure and design architecture. HAD J-10 never been inducted and then PAF acquired production rights and stopped JF-17 then you MAY have had an argument, but as such it is unnecessary and nonsensical to change its name. 

As for converting J-10CE into a stealth design, i will respond here to your previous post as well... J-10 shares less than nothing in design with J-20 outside the fact that they are delta canards. But that is suggesting J-20 is developed from J-10 in that regard is no different from saying J-20 is derived from Gripen, rafale and typhoon. Converting a non-stealth design will require redesign capability that Pakistan does not possess and is harder than designing a steath fighter from scratch. This is not a case of reuse, repurpose and recycle. Stealth is something that needs to go i to the design scheme from the initial conceptualization. If that were not the case, you dont think the US would have put a design scheme for a stealthy F-16 or a fully stealth F-15 instead of F-35 or F-22? Instead, they went went new fighters, while still having iterative upgrades to the legacy fighters culminating in F-15EX. They even developed F-15SE with stealthy LO features includong more curved lines, internal bays and canted tail, but guess what, its still not a 5th gen foghter. And you want Pakistan to take a fighter, one whose rights you do NOT EVEN POSSESS AND ARE UNLIKELY TO GET, and convert it house, and get CAC AND POSSIBLY TAI to help you do it? Its illogical. Again you have been (reportedly) offered joint venture on J-35 AND TFX. If you dont want PAF to buy off the shelf then they should join one of these programs, invest in this as a partner, and put a production line. It will share the cost of a new fighter with new structural and electrical architecture and will be better served in the long run. 

I have heard nothing on production of J-10 halting, but even if it is true, that should tell you all you need to know about the route you are proposing. Had this been 2005 or even 2010, then your in house production has merit, but younare proposing tying Pakistani Defense industrial future to a variant that is at the end of its generation, and whose generations future replacements are in already hitting the battlefields across the world... Then hoping that somehow Turkey (who would never be allowed within 100ft of J-10s blueprints) or China would exhaust resources helping you convert it into a FGFA (which even US didnt do) leaving you with (at best) a 4.8gen fighter

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## LeGenD

tphuang said:


> my contact (and I won't divulge further background here) says that USAF E-3C has trouble locking on to PLAAF J-10Cs. It has really good emission control and EW suite.
> 
> He also said that even with F-16V, its bus speed, subsystem integration and EW suite makes it way less competitive than J-10C.



Your contact is so enlightening...



tphuang said:


> track, whatever you want to call it. I don't quite recall his exact phrasing here, but basically you don't want to use E-3C to find J-10C.
> 
> wrt F-16V, remember that J-10A to J-10B went through a huge redesign of interior in order to accommodate a new avionics architecture, data bus, heat management and MMI that serves as a testbed for J-20. So in terms of amount of data it can provide to pilot, I'm not surprised it impressed upon PAF pilots. F-16V on the other hand didn't go through an interior redesign from C/D.



Just like there wasn't a need for interior redesign between J-10B to J-10C.



tphuang said:


> I can't control PAF if they want to make dumb decisions, but F-16V wouldn't do well against J-10C.



I pointed out that J-10C is more advanced than F-16 C/D in a thread back in March without checking any magazine.

I am also pointing out that F-16V is a massive leap from F-16C/D.

Your claim is bold.



Readerdefence said:


> Hi another way to gauge it easily is chinese way as china can field J10cs against Taiwan f16v & I’m sure Chinese might have already access it or will get there soon if not now as most of the time they keep on pushing their awacs and multiple fighters across the line towards Taiwan
> thank you



Chinese cannot have access to them on the ground.

PLAAF is way too big for Taiwan Air Force to handle, however. It will be a bloodbath but PLAAF will prevail.

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## MastanKhan

LeGenD said:


> Your contact is so enlightening...
> 
> 
> 
> Just like there wasn't a need for interior redesign between J-10B to J-10C.
> 
> 
> 
> *I pointed out that J-10C is more advanced than F-16 C/D in a thread back in March without checking any magazine.*
> 
> *I am also pointing out that F-16V is a massive leap from F-16C/D.*
> 
> Your claim is bold.
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese cannot have access to them on the ground.
> 
> PLAAF is way too big for Taiwan Air Force to handle, however. It will be a bloodbath but PLAAF will prevail.


Hi,

Wouldn't that be considered a natural progression over time---?

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1598236387484274689

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## python-000

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1598236387484274689


Next stop J-35 InshAllah...

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## Trango Towers

python-000 said:


> Next stop J-35 InshAllah...


Wow a University is responsible for the manufacture. Shows how far behind the western universities are. I studied at Cranfield institute of technology. One of the best for engineering in the UK and even on masters in Aicraft design we had no manufacturing exposure. Design was limited to paper and very theoretical. 
Here in China the student will graduate with hands on state of the art experience. Can u imagine the interview?

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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1559808323704299520

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## Horse_Rider

Tank131 said:


> The reason you would change the name has nothing to do with references to Pakistani manufacturers. It has zero bearing on the production lines or logistical supply chain. There is zero reasons that exist why you would need to change the name of an aircraft that (by that time) will have been operating under the name of J-10 in PAF for years. that will have any affect on its production and the logistics tied to it. The J-10CE, EVEN of built in Pakistan, will never be an internal project, and there is no need to refer to it as such. So it is irrational and illogical and making such a change is just pandering to the ego nothing more. This is not to say that J-10CE Line COULD not be set up, or even have the actual JFT line retooled as needed for J-10. BUT that is a separate discussion, though as i said seems uneconomical for just 70-100 fighters. If you are going to retool the line, it should be for a future project that Pakistan has some financial and R&D stake in (FGFA Like J-35 or TFX depending on what they decide).
> 
> As for the delta wing F-16 variant of the F-16, you are referring to the F-16XL which was only ever a tech demonstrator. It was offered to USAF as a future strike fighter but was never serious contender. It was a mildly enlarged fuselage of the standard F-16 and replaced the dual delta with a cranked single delta. It was STILL and F-16, and NOT an entirely different aircraft. Same thing goes with the enlargement of gripen and even the redesign of F-18. These are modified and enlarged versions following a similar structure and design architecture. HAD J-10 never been inducted and then PAF acquired production rights and stopped JF-17 then you MAY have had an argument, but as such it is unnecessary and nonsensical to change its name.
> 
> As for converting J-10CE into a stealth design, i will respond here to your previous post as well... J-10 shares less than nothing in design with J-20 outside the fact that they are delta canards. But that is suggesting J-20 is developed from J-10 in that regard is no different from saying J-20 is derived from Gripen, rafale and typhoon. Converting a non-stealth design will require redesign capability that Pakistan does not possess and is harder than designing a steath fighter from scratch. This is not a case of reuse, repurpose and recycle. Stealth is something that needs to go i to the design scheme from the initial conceptualization. If that were not the case, you dont think the US would have put a design scheme for a stealthy F-16 or a fully stealth F-15 instead of F-35 or F-22? Instead, they went went new fighters, while still having iterative upgrades to the legacy fighters culminating in F-15EX. They even developed F-15SE with stealthy LO features includong more curved lines, internal bays and canted tail, but guess what, its still not a 5th gen foghter. And you want Pakistan to take a fighter, one whose rights you do NOT EVEN POSSESS AND ARE UNLIKELY TO GET, and convert it house, and get CAC AND POSSIBLY TAI to help you do it? Its illogical. Again you have been (reportedly) offered joint venture on J-35 AND TFX. If you dont want PAF to buy off the shelf then they should join one of these programs, invest in this as a partner, and put a production line. It will share the cost of a new fighter with new structural and electrical architecture and will be better served in the long run.
> 
> I have heard nothing on production of J-10 halting, but even if it is true, that should tell you all you need to know about the route you are proposing. Had this been 2005 or even 2010, then your in house production has merit, but younare proposing tying Pakistani Defense industrial future to a variant that is at the end of its generation, and whose generations future replacements are in already hitting the battlefields across the world... Then hoping that somehow Turkey (who would never be allowed within 100ft of J-10s blueprints) or China would exhaust resources helping you convert it into a FGFA (which even US didnt do) leaving you with (at best) a 4.8gen fighter



 You spent so much time on having some personal issue with the a proposed name and that for discussion only.

Now on F-16 XL, whether it was a demonstrator or not is besides the point, if there was interest from USAF or a foreign partner, LM would've offered it in large numbers. It's also becoming clear on your actual understanding on fighter jets. Can the US turn F-16 into a stealth optimized platform? ABSOLUTELY YES, but will that meet it's requirements? NO! Any airframe can be "re-done" for stealth optimization. But it's not "Stealth" per say like the F-22 or the F-35 (even the -35 is not fully stealth). Stealth is not just the airframe. There is a lot that goes into it. I'll stop here now.

It's a known fact that the Chinese pilots find it easier to transition from J-10 to J-20 than flankers. Because J-10's re-use J-20's tech. Only canards aren't just one similarity. On this forum there have been discussions on how J-20's DNA (tech) goes into J-10 and then some even to the JFT. So there is reusability all across between J-10 and the JFT.

Lastly, the J-10CP assembly in Pakistan, the only real point I got from your post was the "economies of scale production" and you are right. Pakistan will only buy this if it has a greater stake in it and that could be export profit sharing or an additional version of the jet for the future to produce in enough numbers to make it much worthy.

China has potentially produced about 500 of J-10 variants in various versions. The cost to outsource the manufacturing line won't be astronomical. Heck, I'd even say it may be on par with the JFT at this point as for the JFT, the entire cost was dumped on Pakistan but J-10CP is a far superior plane.

On J-10 stopping or reducing production runs, yes, it's been going on since earlier this year. CAC is also selling (or has sold already) J-10's production line to a Tier III aircraft company and there will be very few of these coming out in the future as China's requirements and focus now is to crank out enough J-20's (double the capacity) to equate perceived threat numbers of F-35's / F-22 and upcoming Japanese / Korean stealth fighters. China like the US, is simply focusing on 5th gen, then 6th and then Robotics.



Trango Towers said:


> Wow a University is responsible for the manufacture. Shows how far behind the western universities are. I studied at Cranfield institute of technology. One of the best for engineering in the UK and even on masters in Aicraft design we had no manufacturing exposure. Design was limited to paper and very theoretical.
> Here in China the student will graduate with hands on state of the art experience. Can u imagine the interview?



That's nothing new. Engineering and Business are two different sides of any business. The engineering teams are responsible for creating better products and newer tech. The business is responsible for buildout and sales, how best to manufacture a product and how to be most profitable. Engineering teaches design and now with CAD, to Prototypes, to simulators, there is a lot more than what was taught in aeronautical engineering just ten years ago. While in business schools like the London Schools of Economics, Harvard, etc, you get to learn manufacturing processes, setup, quality (six sigma, etc) and cost / profit management. Of course, engineering teams are used throughout the process.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1598601376749293571

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## ghazi52

,..,.,







Earlier in March, a new shape took to the skies over Pakistan. Six J-10Cs, bearing the tail numbers 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, and 106, entered Pakistan via PURPA (waypoint) on the northeastern border with China. Precise and lethal equipped with canards, delta wing design, a soaring 4.5 generation Omni-role, all-weather-capable jet – PAF’s ‘Vigorous Dragon’ had arrived to safeguard the country’s future for years to come. The scenes were reminiscent of 1968, when six French Mirage fighters, tail numbers ranging from 101 to 106 entered Pakistani airspace. Leading the formation was Wg Cdr MM Alam. Sqn Ldr Hakimullah, Sqn Ldr Farooq F Khan, Sqn Ldr Farooq Umar, Flt Lt Arif Manzoor, and Flt Lt Akhtar Rao, flew at his wings. Fast forward to 2022. Leading the formation of Dragons was OC No 15 Sqn, Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim Shehzada. Wg Cdr Bilal Raza, Sqn Ldr Jibran Rashid, Sqn Ldr Hasan Anees, Sqn Ldr Zeeshan Muhammad, Sqn Ldr Ali Qasim, flew on the wings of their leader. The formation is on its way to Kamra from Chengdu. Back at PAF Base Minhas, the air is rife with energy. A sense of excitement and pride runs through all, gathered at the occasion to welcome the Dragons. All eyes are glued towards the beginning of the runway to catch the first glance of Dragons about to appear for landing. Assembled on the tarmac of the base is the senior leadership of PAF under its honorable leader, ACM Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, the CAS PAF. Finally, the historic moment had arrived. First Dragon bearing Serial No 101, flown by Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim appeared on the scene. The six J-10Cs touched down at PAF Base Minhas at Kamra. Senior air officials observing from the tarmac breathed a sigh of relief and applauded the perfect landings. As the aircraft appeared on the tarmac, a water canon salute was presented to the incoming Dragons, a tradition followed to welcome the arrival of new aircraft at a facility. Before Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim could disembark and line up his crew for presentation, he found Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, climbing the ladder, to greet him. “Does the plane live up to our expectations?” asked the smiling Air Chief. “I’ll have to admit, it is one of the best fighter jets in the world. With all the work we had been doing in China over the months, improving our tactics in the way we operate the platform, I can safely say that the capability that we have brought back with us is truly phenomenal, far better than what we expected, sir,” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim responded. It’s a significant investment, but in defense, nothing comes cheap. The J-10C is a cutting-edge platform, moving the PAF into a new ball game in terms of operational readiness, in terms of the nature of the platform the PAF was acquiring. When the “Second to None” team spoke with ground crews and the pilots, it was fair to say that the J-10C was a step in the right direction, something that the PAF had been working towards for a long time. It was just fantastic to see them arrive, having traveled all the way from China. It was a thing of beauty. Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force maintained that the induction of the Dragons highlighted the fact that the investments the air force made in capabilities and in capacity was significant. “The fact that we will be flying the J-10C makes a statement that PAF, has significant defense capability and is willing to do its part in the world, and is willing to meet its obligations,” the Air Chief said during the arrival ceremony of the jets at PAF Base Minhas, where the enthusiasm was contagious.





*Taming the Dragon*

To get trained on J-10Cs and later ferry the Dragons from China, a team of professionals including both pilots and ground crew was shortlisted. Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim Shahzada, who has flown F-16s and Mirages was given the honor of leading the contingent to China in October 2021. His team boasted skilled F-16, JF-17, and Mirage pilots, familiar with Beyond Visual Range (BVR), and had AI exposure. Following strict covid protocols, the team traveled in three groups over a span of three weeks. Gp Capt Azkaar from Project Dragon handled logistics, overseeing departure formalities, flight cancellations due to covid, and preparing backups for dropouts. 

Upon landing in China, on 20 October, the crews were quarantined in the city of arrival for 14 days. On the second last day of the quarantine, Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim tested positive. The rest were cleared to depart to Chengdu, where they were quarantined for another two weeks. Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim spent, in all, 72 days in quarantine before he could join his teammates who had already started their training. The training was focused specifically on operating the J-10C. “In Chengdu, we were basically starting to learn how to fly this technologically advanced jet, and then we went through all the different mission sets and basic skills,” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim said. 

Most of the pilot’s instructions came on the ground, in the classrooms followed by pilots practicing the aircraft’s most unique capabilities in an advanced simulator. The language was a major barrier, which the PAF crew overcame with the help of an interpreter. After classes, PAF pilots used to sit down to reconcile information on their own. No time to enjoy and see China. They were trained directly by the original equipment manufacturers (OEM), and by Chinese counterparts with perhaps a few more flying hours under their belts. A few days of theoretical sessions were followed by quizzes. During training, it was crucial that pilots got comfortable executing J-10C maneuvers. 

Hence, simulator training started in detail, learning avionics, switchology, feel of controls was extremely realistic, engine handling, and the response of controls – allowing to recreate emergencies and procedures in the aircraft that really simulate what it would be like to fly in a real J-10C. Each PAF pilot had to complete the prescribed number of sorties in the simulator as a minimum syllabus requirement, only then they could be allowed in the new jet. Anything they could do in an aircraft they could in the simulator – max rate turns, vertical climbs weapon employment techniques, etc. “A lot of people underestimate the amount of work it takes to become a pilot, and a fighter pilot specifically. A one-hour flight, even in a simulator might mean up to several additional hours of the briefing, gearing up, flight inspections, and debriefings, not to mention the hours spent studying/preparing for each mission,” said Wg Cdr Bilal Raza emphasizes the importance of training. 

Finally, the day arrived when the crew had the opportunity to have the first look at the aircraft. The PAF crew were in awe of the jet when they first set their eyes on the Dragon. The first thing they noticed was its huge size, slightly different shape, and looks as compared to weapon systems they had already flown. “It was a fantastic feeling and we were in love with the bird at first sight,” Wg Cdr Bilal Raza said. “It’s one of the world’s most advanced fighter aircraft and we’re lucky to be a part of that program in the PAF, and to be at the leading edge of that is a real privilege and real delight,” Wg Cdr Bilal Raza added, enthusiastic to feel how it would handle in the air, and wanting to experience its agility and maneuverability. At Chengdu, it was the job of Chinese instructors to teach PAF pilots how to fly the J-10C from scratch. 

The Chinese were nervous, at first, fearing the guest crew would not be able to hack it. “This wasn’t like college where we could get through with minimum passing grades. We had to attain almost 100% to qualify in each and every phase, there were no let-ups. We were expected to catch on to material we were taught really quickly, the learning curve had definitely been pretty steep,” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim recalled. The instructors worked overtime, and gave up a week of Chinese New Year holidays to train PAF pilots – no compromises to achieve minimum standards.







Enter the Dragon Beginning of a New Era – Second To None Pakistan Air Force Magazine







secondtononepaf.com

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## Chandragupt Maurya

What happened to Jay Yuff Savandeen Jadeedtareen Laraka Taiyyara Made in China Used In Pakistan 
I thought Pakistan would replace all aircrafts in PAF inventory with JF17


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## cssniper

LeGenD said:


> Your contact is so enlightening...
> 
> 
> 
> Just like there wasn't a need for interior redesign between J-10B to J-10C.
> 
> 
> 
> I pointed out that J-10C is more advanced than F-16 C/D in a thread back in March without checking any magazine.
> 
> I am also pointing out that F-16V is a massive leap from F-16C/D.
> 
> Your claim is bold.
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese cannot have access to them on the ground.
> 
> PLAAF is way too big for Taiwan Air Force to handle, however. It will be a bloodbath but PLAAF will prevail.


Actually it will be the PLARF who handles the Taiwan Air Force.

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## TopGun786

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> What happened to Jay Yuff Savandeen Jadeedtareen Laraka Taiyyara Made in China Used In Pakistan
> I thought Pakistan would replace all aircrafts in PAF inventory with JF17


Something is burning. I can smell it. Even the smoke is visible.

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## Windjammer

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> What happened to Jay Yuff Savandeen Jadeedtareen Laraka Taiyyara Made in China Used In Pakistan
> I thought Pakistan would replace all aircrafts in PAF inventory with JF17


You forgot to add....it also visited India without the benefit of a Visa and flew back unlike the Agni Pankh Patil....Abhinandan.

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## Trango Towers

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> What happened to Jay Yuff Savandeen Jadeedtareen Laraka Taiyyara Made in China Used In Pakistan
> I thought Pakistan would replace all aircrafts in PAF inventory with JF17


Loool ummm how many tejas are on a truck and who has putlrchased them...even you airforce if u can call it that refuses the mighty tejas. Wonder why. Where was it on Feb 26 and 27 2019? Jf17 was in active combat. I think even your tejas is like the average Indian....gand##



TopGun786 said:


> Something is burning. I can smell it. Even the smoke is visible.


Indian pubes

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## MIRauf

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> What happened to Jay Yuff Savandeen Jadeedtareen Laraka Taiyyara Made in China Used In Pakistan
> I thought Pakistan would replace all aircrafts in PAF inventory with JF17


It was always of the Opinion / hope of the PAF that they will likely be able to secure more F-16s ( new or used or both,) the J-10CE are not in lieu of JF-17s but of more F-16s.

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## araz

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> What happened to Jay Yuff Savandeen Jadeedtareen Laraka Taiyyara Made in China Used In Pakistan
> I thought Pakistan would replace all aircrafts in PAF inventory with JF17


Bhai. 
JFT is still in production and advancing as we speak. Induction into PAF got delayed due to addition of mors capabilities and subsequent testing. Local production of AESA might also have been a reason. Financial crunch which is a well known problem in current Pakistani economic horizon remains an issue. So there is a delay. With the induction of J10s the emergency regarding countering the capabilities of the Rafale is over. So we do have some time on our hand to develop our baby a bit more. Our work horse remains the JFT. SO THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WORRYING ABOUT THE JFT. But there is nothing to worry about.
A



Trango Towers said:


> Loool ummm how many tejas are on a truck and who has putlrchased them...even you airforce if u can call it that refuses the mighty tejas. Wonder why. Where was it on Feb 26 and 27 2019? Jf17 was in active combat. I think even your tejas is like the average Indian....gand##
> 
> 
> Indian pubes


Bhai
Their problem is that they dont want Samosas anymore but have developed a liking for patties. Becharon ko ziada na danto already they are deprived.
A

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## Chandragupt Maurya

araz said:


> Bhai.
> JFT is still in production and advancing as we speak. Induction into PAF got delayed due to addition of mors capabilities and subsequent testing. Local production of AESA might also have been a reason. Financial crunch which is a well known problem in current Pakistani economic horizon remains an issue. So there is a delay. With the induction of J10s the emergency regarding countering the capabilities of the Rafale is over. So we do have some time on our hand to develop our baby a bit more. Our work horse remains the JFT. SO THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WORRYING ABOUT THE JFT. But there is nothing to worry about.
> A
> 
> 
> Bhai
> Their problem is that they dont want Samosas anymore but have developed a liking for patties. Becharon ko ziada na danto already they are deprived.
> A


When you compare one fighter jet with another you compare the specs like , size , weight , MTOW , RCS , Radar , Avionics , thrust weight ratio , ferry range , combat range , weapons , hard points , maintainability , IFR etc
And i have checked all these specs for Tejas it’s indeed the best jet in it’s category and i am not even talking about MK1A (which is flying already) i am talking about FOC Tejas





India flight-testing new Tejas Mk 1A variant


India has been conducting flight trials of the Mk 1A variant of its domestically developed light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas.



www.janes.com

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## Windjammer

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> That’s why I called it Jadeedtareen laraaka Taiyyara , The name itself says F-17 meaning one step ahead of F-16


By that logic MiG-21 is five steps ahead and with pilot Patil at controls, what chance does even an F-22 would have which after all is just one step ahead of M-21.
BTW, the samosa must be the best stealth aircraft ever produced.... any wonder that even after some 30 years, it still remains almost invisible.

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## Chandragupt Maurya

Windjammer said:


> By that logic MiG-21 is five steps ahead and with pilot Patil at controls, what chance does even an F-22 would have which after all is just one step ahead of M-21.
> BTW, the samosa must be the best stealth aircraft ever produced.... any wonder that even after some 30 years, it still remains almost invisible.


But that’s Mig-21 not F - Solah or The Jadeedtareen Laraaaka Taiyyara from Riyasat E Medinah one and only *F - Sattarah *


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## Windjammer

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> But that’s Mig-21 not F - Solah or The Jadeedtareen Laraaaka Taiyyara from Riyasat E Medinah one and only *F - Sattarah *


Well, the F-16 or JF-17 is their universal designation but only in Gangadesh they like to give others products their own slumdog street titles like Shamsher, Baaz, Vajras and what not. 
Not forgetting other classic inventions like Magarmach and Chamgadar.

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## Signalian

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> 30 LCA Tejas were handed over to IAF till July-12-2022 a


Now Pakistan needs to prepare 30 teas, maybe 30 samosas too, since its Tejas.

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## Dreamer.

Why do some people feel the need to respond to trolls?

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## Trango Towers

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> That’s why I called it Jadeedtareen laraaka Taiyyara , The name itself says F-17 meaning one step ahead of F-16
> 
> 
> 30 LCA Tejas were handed over to IAF till July-12-2022 and it’s not some Urdu Medium Jadeedtareen laraaka taiyyara like Jay Yuff Savandeen it’s a real fighter jet fully operational and combat ready



It's JF17 not f17. That means you can now eat a cow pack

'30 LCA Tejas were HANDED over to IAF till July-12-2022'

Handed IAF didn't ask for them, rejected them and still don't want them but they were handed to them.

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## TopGun786

Windjammer said:


> You forgot to add....it also visited India without the benefit of a Visa and flew back unlike the Agni Pankh Ptil....Abhinandan.


That day we pounded India like a hell. True potential of JF-17


Chandragupt Maurya said:


> That’s why I called it Jadeedtareen laraaka Taiyyara , The name itself says F-17 meaning one step ahead of F-16
> 
> 
> 30 LCA Tejas were handed over to IAF till July-12-2022 and it’s not some Urdu Medium Jadeedtareen laraaka taiyyara like Jay Yuff Savandeen it’s a real fighter jet fully operational and combat ready


Can see your tail still emitting smoke. And yes, Samosa has everything better, but on paper 
It still has to fly after 40 years in development. Another 40 years will pas until it gets to be combat ready. World will have colonies be Mars by then.

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## Trango Towers

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> The “J” in Jay Yuff Savandeen stands for Jadeedtareen because it’s an Urdu Medium Mughal E Azam kind of Laraka Taiyyara so is not the case with LCA Tejas it’s a fighter jet only


Same mugle Azams that ruled India for a 1000 years. You Hindus are a joke. Now my dearest hindi piss pass. Jog on to your gay afghani boyfriend

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## CivilianSupremacy

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> The “J” in Jay Yuff Savandeen stands for Jadeedtareen because it’s an Urdu Medium Mughal E Azam kind of Laraka Taiyyara so is not the case with LCA Tejas it’s a fighter jet only



It seems you are not only obsessed with JFT fighter jet but you are also very much obsessed with Urdu language. 

Let me help you if you don't know already:
Jadeed: Modern
Laraka Tayyara: Fighter Aircraft

We are proud of Urdu. The way you are saying "Urdu Medium ", so what ? You guys don't have any words for fighter aircrafts in hindi ?? Or you are just so ashamed of those ?? I just can't get hold of this low indian mentality.

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## Mig hunter

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> That’s why I called it Jadeedtareen laraaka Taiyyara , The name itself says F-17 meaning one step ahead of F-16
> 
> 
> 30 LCA Tejas were handed over to IAF till July-12-2022 and it’s not some Urdu Medium Jadeedtareen laraaka taiyyara like Jay Yuff Savandeen it’s a real fighter jet fully operational and combat ready


What happened to raptor of East the might SU 30, when u brought in Rafael..😬😬 Hope you would understand, if there exist an iota of intelligence in you which is hard to find in Indians now a days..

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## araz

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> When you compare one fighter jet with another you compare the specs like , size , weight , MTOW , RCS , Radar , Avionics , thrust weight ratio , ferry range , combat range , weapons , hard points , maintainability , IFR etc
> And i have checked all these specs for Tejas it’s indeed the best jet in it’s category and i am not even talking about MK1A (which is flying already) i am talking about FOC Tejas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India flight-testing new Tejas Mk 1A variant
> 
> 
> India has been conducting flight trials of the Mk 1A variant of its domestically developed light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas.
> 
> 
> 
> www.janes.com


Idont want to digress from the main topic which is J10. Please transfer your post to the Tehas thread and I will respond if there is anything there to respond. By the way Bhai Tejas has the US engine so its MTBO will laways be better than the RD series. So no contnetion as this is precisely what I have been saying to @credence .
A

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## TopGun786

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> We can only compare specs which are available on paper neither of us has flown these jets
> And the pilots from all over the world who flew Tejas said the same
> 
> i actually wanted to compare Tejas , JF17 and J10C
> 
> 
> Khallas
> the only thing missing is “Halal” certification this Jadeedtareen laraka taiyyara will become more palatable if it gets Halal certification


Your tail is still smoking.

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## araz

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> We can only compare specs which are available on paper neither of us has flown these jets
> And the pilots from all over the world who flew Tejas said the same
> 
> i actually wanted to compare Tejas , JF17 and J10C
> 
> 
> Khallas
> the only thing missing is “Halal” certification this Jadeedtareen laraka taiyyara will become more palatable if it gets Halal certification


Were you the one giving me bhashan about comparing like for like? You cant compare a medium weight fighter with 2 light weight fighters so get your posts out of here into the rleevant section and I will respond if I have the time. Any more digression will get you a spankong from one of the moderators as you are persistently posting off topic.
A

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## syed_yusuf

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> We can only compare specs which are available on paper neither of us has flown these jets
> And the pilots from all over the world who flew Tejas said the same
> 
> i actually wanted to compare Tejas , JF17 and J10C
> 
> 
> Khallas
> the only thing missing is “Halal” certification this Jadeedtareen laraka taiyyara will become more palatable if it gets Halal certification


i think the paper comparison should be between J10CE/CP and Rafale. or JF17 BLK 3 and Rafale. 

Teja is not a very operational fighter so we should not waste our time on it.

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## renhai

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> And the pilots from all over the world who flew Tejas said the same


They must be very brave. After all. Few people want to test the "Indian assembly goods" with their lives.

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## TopGun786

renhai said:


> They must be very brave. After all. Few people want to test the "Indian assembly goods" with their lives.


Epic. On spot.

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## Deino

*Guys ... do we really need to discuss Israel and now India and the Tejas in this thread?*
*Go and open a new thread but leave this one restricted to the J-10C and PAF!*
*
OK???*

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Trango Towers

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 902940


This one is ready anyone want to play in India?

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## Deino

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 902940




Hey ... finally back on topic!

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## SQ8

Deino said:


> Hey ... finally back on topic!


Takes a few thread bans

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

J10C Close Up(PLAAF)

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Wish could find out an English version.

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## Tempest II

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Wish could find out an English version.
> View attachment 903521


Google lens has a translate function event for text on images

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.
HMDs system of PAF Air Crafts ..

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## Trango Towers

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.,.
> HMDs system of PAF Air Crafts ..
> 
> View attachment 903828


Do Indian fighter have this system?


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## Ghessan

Trango Towers said:


> Do Indian fighter have this system?


they use Israeli HMDs

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

نہیں تیرا نشیمن قصرِ سُلطانی کے گُنبد پر
تُو شاہین ہے بسیرا کر پہاڑوں کی چٹانوں پر

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Windjammer



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*PAF BVR ARSENAL 
PL-15
AIM-120C-5 
SD-10A*

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## Windjammer

Another day, another mission. 
But no damn Indian jet in sight.

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## Horse_Rider

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> *PAF BVR ARSENAL
> PL-15
> AIM-120C-5
> SD-10A*



And soon to be supplemented (around 2024-2025) with Turkish options:
Gökdoğan (Peregrine) and Gökhan (Skykhan)

it seems as between the F-16's / JFT and J-10CP, the standard loadout is 4*BVR+2*WVR munitions. Looks like a heavy punch ready to be delivered!

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## Signalian

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> نہیں تیرا نشیمن قصرِ سُلطانی کے گُنبد پر
> تُو شاہین ہے بسیرا کر پہاڑوں کی چٹانوں پر


Holds true when J-10 deployment arrives for Skardu

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## Trango Towers

Windjammer said:


> Another day, another mission.
> But no damn Indian jet in sight.
> 
> View attachment 904735


Poor kid. No one to play with ...

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF Pilots Feedback on J10C​

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## ghazi52



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## NooriNuth

Signalian said:


> Holds true when J-10 deployment arrives for Skardu


I been to visit Skardu air base. Obviously wasn't allowed inside, but did wait outside for quite some time to watch a thunder flying. Didn't happen. 
Not a busy airbase I must say.


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## Horse_Rider

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 905041



History repeats itself. I believe J-10C is going to be the Mirage case for the PAF and we'd end up acquiring them in large numbers going forward. The J-10C meets ALL PAF's needs. And if this is our future Mirage case, then smart, long term planning is needed to acquire license production / co-manufacturing in Pakistan today. 

We can save billions in cost by producing J-10C local, establish advance industry around latest sensors / airframe, and be worry free by producing both Hi / Lo of the PAF (J-10C and JFT) and integrate anything we need. 

Today's investment into acquiring a production line would pay us back twice, once in savings to produce, second, when we get done with producing numbers, the same production line goes to build new variants / upgrades / rebuilt old airframes, etc.


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## Beast

Horse_Rider said:


> History repeats itself. I believe J-10C is going to be the Mirage case for the PAF and we'd end up acquiring them in large numbers going forward. The J-10C meets ALL PAF's needs. And if this is our future Mirage case, then smart, long term planning is needed to acquire license production / co-manufacturing in Pakistan today.
> 
> We can save billions in cost by producing J-10C local, establish advance industry around latest sensors / airframe, and be worry free by producing both Hi / Lo of the PAF (J-10C and JFT) and integrate anything we need.
> 
> Today's investment into acquiring a production line would pay us back twice, once in savings to produce, second, when we get done with producing numbers, the same production line goes to build new variants / upgrades / rebuilt old airframes, etc.


Pakistan may have an assembly line for J-10CE but important sub component will still need to be import from China like AESA, jet engine and avionics.

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## MastanKhan

SQ8 said:


> Not the IAF
> They threw in their chips with the heavy, massive rcs elephant that is the mki, then with the ridiculously expensive Rafale and will look desperate not fulfilling their commitment to the Tejas.
> 
> *Their best bet is to throw in the towel and go all in on the F-35. That will grant them the permanent edge over PAF*


Hi,

& that would be another way of losing their sovereignty---which they fear the most---.

Do the indians hate pakistan that much to take that final decision to fully come under the umbrella of the magnited states

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## Horse_Rider

Beast said:


> Pakistan may have an assembly line for J-10CE but important sub component will still need to be import from China like AESA, jet engine and avionics.



It will always be a shared venture. After all, it is a Chinese product but the ToT of some components will be given some procured directly. Win-win for both. CAC is focusing on J-20 double production so J-10C's production is being given to some smaller aircraft manufacturer. It's a good proposal to ask to purchase it and do a JV. China will continue to make decent $$ and Pakistan will start an advance aviation industry and will benefit from cost savings, as well as start to build an industry around it's top fighter jet.

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## syed_yusuf

I think Pakistan is trading with China in yuan and rupees not in dollars 

J10cp is a good 4.5gen that can serve paf for for net two decades decently even with 5th gen induction it will still be potent 

If paf don't get production right they should still in est in subsystem production to lower the final cost may be paf can build wings or mid fuselage also

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602369446357729280

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## Bossman

NooriNuth said:


> I been to visit Skardu air base. Obviously wasn't allowed inside, but did wait outside for quite some time to watch a thunder flying. Didn't happen.
> Not a busy airbase I must say.


Because they are permanently based there. It is still a forward base.


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## araz

syed_yusuf said:


> I think Pakistan is trading with China in yuan and rupees not in dollars
> 
> J10cp is a good 4.5gen that can serve paf for for net two decades decently even with 5th gen induction it will still be potent
> 
> If paf don't get production right they should still in est in subsystem production to lower the final cost may be paf can build wings or mid fuselage also


I understand where you are coming from. However, a word of caution!!!! THERE is no data at all from open source literature to support your assumptions. There are glaring shortcomings in Chinese technologies which the PAF is trying to bolster hard by acquiring more F16s. You can see how they are progressively moving assembly lines in Pakistan so alternative source of material and components can be acquired. The J10 is neither good or bad. it is safe to say we dont know how much it is worth till it is tried out. I wish we have a gem in our hands, but the technically savvy will say we do not know.
A

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## Luosifen

araz said:


> I understand where you are coming from. However, a word of caution!!!! THERE is no data at all from open source literature to support your assumptions. There are *glaring* shortcomings in Chinese technologies which the PAF is trying to bolster hard by acquiring more F16s. You can see how they are progressively moving assembly lines in Pakistan so alternative source of material and components can be acquired. The J10 is neither good or bad. it is safe to say we dont know how much it is worth till it is tried out. I wish we have a gem in our hands, but the technically savvy will say we do not know.
> A


That bolded part I'd consider a claim you're gonna want to back with evidence. What do you think are the shortcomings and why is it 'glaring'?

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## Beast

araz said:


> I understand where you are coming from. However, a word of caution!!!! THERE is no data at all from open source literature to support your assumptions. There are glaring shortcomings in Chinese technologies which the PAF is trying to bolster hard by acquiring more F16s. You can see how they are progressively moving assembly lines in Pakistan so alternative source of material and components can be acquired. The J10 is neither good or bad. it is safe to say we dont know how much it is worth till it is tried out. I wish we have a gem in our hands, but the technically savvy will say we do not know.
> A


Look at this liar keep bumping fake lies against Chinese military products. After caught with his pants down fabricate lies about Chinese pulling out from agreement of inducting JF-17 into PLAAF fleet. This serial liar now come with more BS about PAF J-10CE.

PAF only interested in acquire more used F-16 becos the price is dirt cheap. They are not interested in new F-16V. Those used F-16 are selling at rock bottom prices and can be used as spares or canonicalized to maintain remaining fleet of F-16 in operational status without costing a bomb. And now we have smart alec using this as the reason why PAF is not satisfy with J-10CE.. Then can you explain why PAF decide to expand the J-10CE fleet to total of 90 planes if there is glaring shortcoming about Chinese J-10CE?

There are many things that just need use common sense to tell you who is satisfy or not with their new purchase products. Only loser will keep demanding black and white to justify their lies.



Luosifen said:


> That bolded part I'd consider a claim you're gonna want to back with evidence. What do you think are the shortcomings and why is it 'glaring'?


This @araz is a proven Chinese haters. Repeat caught fabricate lies against Chinese military products. From, VT-4, Z-10ME, Type 054A frigates, JF-17 and now to J-10CE.

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## Readerdefence

araz said:


> I understand where you are coming from. However, a word of caution!!!! THERE is no data at all from open source literature to support your assumptions. There are glaring shortcomings in Chinese technologies which the PAF is trying to bolster hard by acquiring more F16s. You can see how they are progressively moving assembly lines in Pakistan so alternative source of material and components can be acquired. The J10 is neither good or bad. it is safe to say we dont know how much it is worth till it is tried out. I wish we have a gem in our hands, but the technically savvy will say we do not know.
> A


Hi araz I’ll not deny of data claim or sharing bit it never or will happen in Chinese case, now I’m understanding is ok one can say less comparable to 5th of 6th generation USA style aircrafts bit if we go by short comings of logic I think Chinese airforce will be piece of cake for Taiwan & Japanese so much so against South Koreans too if they are 
as their fighters main role is to combat with much larger then IAF against Pakistan 
so I’m sure j10 early models might not been comparable to F16 but later and near past & future near models will be more enhanced then F16 
we can say PAF doesn’t have choice to or not been supplied western fighters but then again since 2007 when Pakistan ask for further enhancement in these and waited almost 15 years lot of time period to get these there must be some catch behind getting these fighters now though Chinese were ready to give these in 2007 too on soft loans or whatever 
now people can say oh we were after F16 though PAF in near future up until now won’t be able to get AESA capable long range AMRAAMs from USA or any other western country compatible to F16s
I am pretty much sure even USA won’t allow Turkey to let us have AESA on our F16 not another 5/8 years down the line 
just my thought 
your input will be helpful 
thank you


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Arabs are also generating some interest in J10c.

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## siegecrossbow

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Arabs are also generating some interest in J10c.
> View attachment 905596



What does it say?


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## Gripen9

siegecrossbow said:


> What does it say?


Something like "To be acquired by Egypt soon...?"
or Maybe destined for Egypt soon

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## Horse_Rider

syed_yusuf said:


> I think Pakistan is trading with China in yuan and rupees not in dollars
> 
> J10cp is a good 4.5gen that can serve paf for for net two decades decently even with 5th gen induction it will still be potent
> 
> If paf don't get production right they should still in est in subsystem production to lower the final cost may be paf can build wings or mid fuselage also



Yes, when the money in-flows are in Yuan from the Chinese, obviously the other currency being used is PKR, so it's Yuan-PKR. The CPEC is a Chinese venture with Chinese and they use their own currency in giving out loans. Similarly, when buying / paying to the Chinese, they want Yuans, not dollars. 

J-10C with PAF is a perfect marriage for 30 years to come and more. It literally has everything the PAF wants. Now the ONLY risk is to NOT let it become another "Mirage" saga, where we are forced to buy out of desperation. We need to plan smartly and build a local industry around its tech in Pakistan and license build (50-60%) of it in-house so we can sustain it in numbers cheaply, so upgrade as need be and come up newer variants (similar to the JFT), save billions and be worry free going forward as both Hi-Lo are being produced internally to whatever degree possible.

This way, our focus becomes 5th gen J/31/TFX / Akinci / KizilElma acquisition to complete 5th gen tier and deploy net-centric loyal wingman doctrine.

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## CivilianSupremacy

Horse_Rider said:


> Yes, when the money in-flows are in Yuan from the Chinese, obviously the other currency being used is PKR, so it's Yuan-PKR. The CPEC is a Chinese venture with Chinese and they use their own currency in giving out loans. Similarly, when buying / paying to the Chinese, they want Yuans, not dollars.
> 
> J-10C with PAF is a perfect marriage for 30 years to come and more. It literally has everything the PAF wants. Now the ONLY risk is to NOT let it become another "Mirage" saga, where we are forced to buy out of desperation. We need to plan smartly and build a local industry around its tech in Pakistan and license build (50-60%) of it in-house so we can sustain it in numbers cheaply, so upgrade as need be and come up newer variants (similar to the JFT), save billions and be worry free going forward as both Hi-Lo are being produced internally to whatever degree possible.
> 
> This way, our focus becomes 5th gen J/31/TFX / Akinci / KizilElma acquisition to complete 5th gen tier and deploy net-centric loyal wingman doctrine.



WTH Bro, Don't you get tired saying same thing over and over again. Sorry to be rude, but really no one is accepting this childish argument. You literally don't have money to replace your 2nd generation aircrafts with JF-17 Block IIIs (only 50 ordered) and you want to Setup factory for J-10Cs production lines and replace & produce J-10Cs in numbers ??? Which Oil fields and Gold mines you discovered in Pakistan which nobody else can see as of yet??

Come back to reality!

J-10C is an expensive aircraft for Pakistan. The J-10Cs are for LIMITED numbers. PAF HI/Low combination means the Hi platforms will always be in very limited numbers. It will be insanely expensive to setup entire production lines in Pakistan, train everyone on it and then produce the aircrafts. The setting up production lines and then producing will also see good 6-7 years for first batch. Why would we bother to pay so much for limited aircrafts.

Your mind is stuck at same place and you are fixated in it. Its not practical and its not good to be stubborn. Why to prolong & pollute every thread just for the sake of arguments ? 

Pakistan WILL only get 25 or 36 (whatever is initial order) for this decade. There's no more J-10C in this decade. Even if Pakistan plans to induct 100 J-10Cs, it will be far far more cheaper to get them off the shelf. 

Now next time, you try to repeat same story over & over again. I want to know solution to basic questions which you took for granted. Which are below:-

1) How come you know China will accept this proposal at first hand. Seeing the clear and obvious tilt by Establishment as Pro-american. Former COAS literally made statements in public / pvt meetings on which chinese should be concerned already.

2) Even more important point then first. ECONOMY. Please explain how do you think we have funds for this endaveor. Please explain, how you are going to manage and PAY for imminent payments / loan payments / import bills for next month and for the rest of the year. Also do you know how much billions of dollars of we have to pay for 2023, 2024, and so on till 2030. How much we have to pay for electricity payments, how much billions for Oil and other critical imports. Try to spend a day on it. There's no math which is able to solve this at the moment. We are very short of cash. The govt is betting on KSA to lend some money so that they can make essential payments. On the other hand I see these childish posts for military goods. No reason why we are in this mess. Our people are unaware of realities.

Everyone needs to understand economy, its importance. This is way more important even for War then our wishlist for military. If you have not invested in your economy then you simply cannot win wars. You may win limited conflicts like 27th Feb 2019. But for long, sustained war you need extremely strong economy. The oil consumption is crazy as entire military machine runs on oil. Do we have any money for sustain oil imports during war? Do we have enough money for food and other essentials during full scale war ? I wonder how can people crave for military wishlist in these times of destroyed economy. We need nothing more for military, even we did extra spending where we could have surely managed for-example it was not emergency like sitation that we spent nearly 1 billions USD on VT-4s and probably will pay upto 2 Bil for more numbers. Wars are win with complete national strength in which economy is the strongest element.
We as a nation needs to collectively think and understand that our focus should be ECONOMY. Not military goods. Once our economy is strong, we won't need to worry about anything else. We should keep minimum deterrence but we simply cannot afford beating india in military purchases. We simply cannot buy 100s of J-10Cs. Why its so hard to understand?

EDIT: The J-10Cs production lines will remain active in China for decades to come. please note China still operate old F-7s and F-8s etc. Also it will need to support its current massive numbers. It will always be much more affordable / cheaper to get additional squadron (if required and if has money problems solved) right from the china.

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## Horse_Rider

CivilianSupremacy said:


> WTH Bro, Don't you get tired saying same thing over and over again. Sorry to be rude, but really no one is accepting this childish argument. You literally don't have money to replace your 2nd generation aircrafts with JF-17 Block IIIs (only 50 ordered) and you want to Setup factory for J-10Cs production lines and replace & produce J-10Cs in numbers ??? Which Oil fields and Gold mines you discovered in Pakistan which nobody else can see as of yet??
> 
> Come back to reality!
> 
> J-10C is an expensive aircraft for Pakistan. The J-10Cs are for LIMITED numbers. PAF HI/Low combination means the Hi platforms will always be in very limited numbers. It will be insanely expensive to setup entire production lines in Pakistan, train everyone on it and then produce the aircrafts. The setting up production lines and then producing will also see good 6-7 years for first batch. Why would we bother to pay so much for limited aircrafts.
> 
> Your mind is stuck at same place and you are fixated in it. Its not practical and its not good to be stubborn. Why to prolong & pollute every thread just for the sake of arguments ?
> 
> Pakistan WILL only get 25 or 36 (whatever is initial order) for this decade. There's no more J-10C in this decade. Even if Pakistan plans to induct 100 J-10Cs, it will be far far more cheaper to get them off the shelf.
> 
> Now next time, you try to repeat same story over & over again. I want to know solution to basic questions which you took for granted. Which are below:-
> 
> 1) How come you know China will accept this proposal at first hand. Seeing the clear and obvious tilt by Establishment as Pro-american. Former COAS literally made statements in public / pvt meetings on which chinese should be concerned already.
> 
> 2) Even more important point then first. ECONOMY. Please explain how do you think we have funds for this endaveor. Please explain, how you are going to manage and PAY for imminent payments / loan payments / import bills for next month and for the rest of the year. Also do you know how much billions of dollars of we have to pay for 2023, 2024, and so on till 2030. How much we have to pay for electricity payments, how much billions for Oil and other critical imports. Try to spend a day on it. There's no math which is able to solve this at the moment. We are very short of cash. The govt is betting on KSA to lend some money so that they can make essential payments. On the other hand I see these childish posts for military goods. No reason why we are in this mess. Our people are unaware of realities.
> 
> Everyone needs to understand economy, its importance. This is way more important even for War then our wishlist for military. If you have not invested in your economy then you simply cannot win wars. You may win limited conflicts like 27th Feb 2019. But for long, sustained war you need extremely strong economy. The oil consumption is crazy as entire military machine runs on oil. Do we have any money for sustain oil imports during war? Do we have enough money for food and other essentials during full scale war ? I wonder how can people crave for military wishlist in these times of destroyed economy. We need nothing more for military, even we did extra spending where we could have surely managed for-example it was not emergency like sitation that we spent nearly 1 billions USD on VT-4s and probably will pay upto 2 Bil for more numbers. Wars are win with complete national strength in which economy is the strongest element.
> We as a nation needs to collectively think and understand that our focus should be ECONOMY. Not military goods. Once our economy is strong, we won't need to worry about anything else. We should keep minimum deterrence but we simply cannot afford beating india in military purchases. We simply cannot buy 100s of J-10Cs. Why its so hard to understand?



I am glad you read my post as that was the purpose, It's called education and making "a Frog think outside of the Pond" if you will so people can start to think "long term". 

I can't answer SUCH a lengthy post of disturbed reality and "we are doomed" scenarios. This proposed project will help the economy. While you sit here and write these books on "how Pakistan is doomed". It's not. We are going through a tough patch but we are not "doomed". The expenditure is tightened obviously. No one's saying we execute this proposal tomorrow. We should start to get out of the current situation starting February 2023. If certain political elements don't cause further destruction, our economy should start to stabilize. 

Also, do note, currently there are close to $ 50 billion worth of Power and CPEC related projects being executed right now. If we were "doomed" than none of these projects would be funded by the China / WB / ADB / IMF. I can't teach you economy on an online forum. Just like all other projects, certain defense related projects need to be created to help grow the economy. The proposed growth of Aviation Industry of Pakistan (through J-10 C) is one of them.

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## Deino

Gripen9 said:


> Something like "To be acquired by Egypt soon...?"
> or Maybe destined for Egypt soon




Thanks for the translation, but given Egypt's zoo of modern fighters ranging from Mirage 2000s F-16s, Rafales; MiG-35 and so on I don't expect them to get yet another modern fighter within the same class ... or maybe this exactly is the main reason since they still lack a CHinese Dragon in their fighter-zoo!?

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## Horse_Rider

Deino said:


> Thanks for the translation, but given Egypt's zoo of modern fighters ranging from Mirage 2000s F-16s, Rafales; MiG-35 and so on I don't expect them to get yet another modern fighter within the same class ... or maybe this exactly is the main reason since they still lack a CHinese Dragon in their fighter-zoo!?



You hit it on the head. I always wonder how do Egyptians maintain such a large fleet of various fighters? What's sad is that they still don't have a real, net-centric warfare capability and the Western fighters given are VERY limited in BVR and stand off engagements. It's like having nice shinny cars but they can only be driven locally,

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## Deino

Horse_Rider said:


> You hit it on the head. I always wonder how do Egyptians maintain such a large fleet of various fighters? What's sad is that they still don't have a real, net-centric warfare capability and the Western fighters given are VERY limited in BVR and stand off engagements. It's like having nice shinny cars but they can only be driven locally,




In fact ... almost like India's IAF with MiG-29UPG and MiG-29K, Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Rafale ...

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## Horse_Rider

Deino said:


> In fact ... almost like India's IAF with MiG-29UPG and MiG-29K, Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Rafale ...



Add Tejas MK1, Tejas Mk2, Jaguars to complete the list and soon to add F-18's to it . The IAF seems more like an airforce exhibition than a professional airforce.

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## CivilianSupremacy

Deino said:


> Thanks for the translation, but given Egypt's zoo of modern fighters ranging from Mirage 2000s F-16s, Rafales; MiG-35 and so on I don't expect them to get yet another modern fighter within the same class ... or maybe this exactly is the main reason since they still lack a CHinese Dragon in their fighter-zoo!?



The problem with Egypt is that they have great fighters from the west but they don't have the proper BVR missiles. US / France has not sold AMRAAMS / METEORS to Egypt. They want to ensure Israel's edge. (Though Israel still will have edge even if sold) 

I saw a twitter post that Egyptians are interested in PL-15. So, thats maybe the reason they can be interested in J-10Cs. IMO Egyptians did a mistake buying so many western platforms (knowing very well that they won't be given proper weaponary for those) . Now they have plethora of platforms and perhaps it will become nightmare to maintain all those different kind of stuff.

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## Horse_Rider

CivilianSupremacy said:


> The problem with Egypt is that they have great fighters from the west but they don't have the proper BVR missiles. US / France has not sold AMRAAMS / METEORS to Egypt. They want to ensure Israel's edge. (Though Israel still will have edge even if sold)
> 
> I saw a twitter post that Egyptians are interested in PL-15. So, thats maybe the reason they can be interested in J-10Cs. IMO Egyptians did a mistake buying so many western platforms (knowing very well that they won't be given proper weaponary for those) . Now they have plethora of platforms and perhaps it will become nightmare to maintain all those different kind of stuff.



Egypt will not get the PL-15. SD-10 if they ever agree to a JFT order.


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## Trango Towers

Horse_Rider said:


> Egypt will not get the PL-15. SD-10 if they ever agree to a JFT order.


Why?


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## Horse_Rider

Trango Towers said:


> Why?



I can't put the answer on a public forum. Let's wait and find out. If the "PL-15" is ever used for them, know it's truly SD-10+


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## Ghessan

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Arabs are also generating some interest in J10c.
> View attachment 905596


It says kind of this at google translate, though don't make sense: "Is the J-10CE mud plane stuck in Egypt soon?"


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## araz

Luosifen said:


> That bolded part I'd consider a claim you're gonna want to back with evidence. What do you think are the shortcomings and why is it 'glaring'?


No tangible data on MTBF, MTBOs. No data on war operations and how quickly aircrafts can be turned around for a sortie. What is their breakdown rate in case of high frequency war time use? The problem I have is everything is mired in obscurity. You say "it is the best!" I say "It is the worst"! My question is how do we determine who is right or wrong? These questions will remain till data emerges either of war time usage, or other parameters from Chinese sources. I am absolutely amazed by the progress made by the Chinese and remain a fan of their products. But verifiable data will not be forth coming from Chinese sources and so we will not know where they or we stand
A

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## Luosifen

araz said:


> No tangible data on MTBF, MTBOs. No data on war operations and how quickly aircrafts can be turned around for a sortie. What is their breakdown rate in case of high frequency war time use? The problem I have is everything is mired in obscurity. You say "it is the best!" I say "It is the worst"! My question is how do we determine who is right or wrong? These questions will remain till data emerges either of war time usage, or other parameters from Chinese sources. I am absolutely amazed by the progress made by the Chinese and remain a fan of their products. But verifiable data will not be forth coming from Chinese sources and so we will not know where they or we stand
> A


Ok this we can work with. So, exact specs on the WS-10 engines are still classified and only known to PLAAF, PAF and the manufacturers, the best official public clue we can gain about them is the deputy designer of the J-20 commented at Zhuhai 2021 that J-20s with WS-10C have better flight performance than J-20s equipped with AL-31s after optimization:





The English summary:
1) Engines are the heart of an aircraft, and engine performance (e.g. thrust) is crucial to the overall performance of a fighter aircraft.
2) The J-20 is now equipped with domestic engines, which is a milestone.
3) The design of an aircraft is inseparable from engine development. The two processes are intertwined. The airframe and engines must be matched and optimized for each other. Our design process takes into consideration future engine upgrades.
4) The _overall _flight performance of the J-20 with domestic engines is "_superior *and* not inferior_" to the J-20 powered by Russian engines.

As to their reliability in high tempo use, you'll have to judge based on the fact the PLAAF used them during the recent Taiwan tensions encircling the island and maintaining that presence until the end of the exercises, where engine failure would mean ditching in water.

To me, 'glaring' shortcomings would be more along the lines of if the radars couldn't lock onto targets/get jammed easily, or if they don't carry BVRAAMs that can match or exceed the range and performance of the opposing side, or your comm links can get jammed. If previous statements made here on PDF are credible, the Shaheen IX exercise where PLAAF was authorized to show the full capabilities of the J-10C convinced PAF command to quickly buy these aircraft when they countered everything the PAF tried against them.

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## MastanKhan

Luosifen said:


> Ok this we can work with. So, exact specs on the WS-10 engines are still classified and only known to PLAAF, PAF and the manufacturers, the best official public clue we can gain about them is the deputy designer of the J-20 commented at Zhuhai 2021 that J-20s with WS-10C have better flight performance than J-20s equipped with AL-31s after optimization:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The English summary:
> 1) Engines are the heart of an aircraft, and engine performance (e.g. thrust) is crucial to the overall performance of a fighter aircraft.
> 2) The J-20 is now equipped with domestic engines, which is a milestone.
> 3) The design of an aircraft is inseparable from engine development. The two processes are intertwined. The airframe and engines must be matched and optimized for each other. Our design process takes into consideration future engine upgrades.
> 4) The _overall _flight performance of the J-20 with domestic engines is "_superior *and* not inferior_" to the J-20 powered by Russian engines.
> 
> As to their reliability in high tempo use, you'll have to judge based on the fact the PLAAF used them during the recent Taiwan tensions encircling the island and maintaining that presence until the end of the exercises, where engine failure would mean ditching in water.
> 
> To me, 'glaring' shortcomings would be more along the lines of if the radars couldn't lock onto targets/get jammed easily, or if they don't carry BVRAAMs that can match or exceed the range and performance of the opposing side, or your comm links can get jammed. If previous statements made here on PDF are credible, the Shaheen IX exercise where PLAAF was authorized to show the full capabilities of the J-10C convinced PAF command to quickly buy these aircraft when they countered everything the PAF tried against them.


Hi,

There was a desperate time for Rafael & Gripen---they were desperate in getting some sales---.

Gripen & Rafale had to show what their aircraft had---to make their sale---& that is what they did---. They gave 'catchy' names to their EW counter measure suite etc---they gave 'catchy' names to their weapons---they had 'catchy' advertisements about their product---.

There is no doubt that they have an excellent product.

But otoh---china has an excellent product as well---showing in theo weapons---their EW suite and their aircraft---.

Here---Paf had the opportunity to get the Italian radar and EW pkg but chose the chinese over it---. There must be a reason for that---. 

Both the chinese and Paf have made the right decision about not disclosing the abilities and capabilities of their machines and EW pkgs---.

Let the enemy wonder what we have---they will find out on day of *JUDGEMENT*---the day of combat.

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## Ghessan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There was a desperate time for Rafael & Gripen---they were desperate in getting some sales---.
> 
> Gripen & Rafale had to show what their aircraft had---to make their sale---& that is what they did---. They gave 'catchy' names to their EW counter measure suite etc---they gave 'catchy' names to their weapons---*they had 'catchy' advertisements about their product---.*
> 
> There is no doubt that they have an excellent product.
> 
> But otoh---china has an excellent product as well---showing in theo weapons---their EW suite and their aircraft---.
> 
> Here---Paf had the opportunity to get the Italian radar and EW pkg but chose the chinese over it---. There must be a reason for that---.
> 
> Both the chinese and Paf have made the right decision about not disclosing the abilities and capabilities of their machines and EW pkgs---.
> 
> Let the enemy wonder what we have---they will find out on day of *JUDGEMENT*---the day of combat.



we are lacking same here with PAC/PAF to market JF-17, i am afraid if for Blk III with such capabilities, will ruin on marketing and advertising slipping the orders away. this plane has potential to get sales. 

this is not their job simply because they don't know how to market a product. 

my education and work experience with marketing of products in a multinational tells me, it will always be a flop show where ever PAC/PAF market their product. 

it is not with some hoardings and an attractive stall with lights to display and few people standing there with flat faces and attitude that repels people instead of attracting them. 

it is with personnel standing there, lively, energetic with their body language, way of welcoming guests, presenting the product with "appropriate" details and explanation. above all ready to answer all the questions with information available to them in an impressive way. 

when staff says "cheap plane to fly" then later on what ever goodies you put in, you are already failed with first impression. 

even i can do better with my experience doing same for years in so many countries, just feed me info.

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## WaqarAhmed161247

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There was a desperate time for Rafael & Gripen---they were desperate in getting some sales---.
> 
> Gripen & Rafale had to show what their aircraft had---to make their sale---& that is what they did---. They gave 'catchy' names to their EW counter measure suite etc---they gave 'catchy' names to their weapons---they had 'catchy' advertisements about their product---.
> 
> There is no doubt that they have an excellent product.
> 
> But otoh---china has an excellent product as well---showing in theo weapons---their EW suite and their aircraft---.
> 
> Here---Paf had the opportunity to get the Italian radar and EW pkg but chose the chinese over it---. There must be a reason for that---.
> 
> Both the chinese and Paf have made the right decision about not disclosing the abilities and capabilities of their machines and EW pkgs---.
> 
> Let the enemy wonder what we have---they will find out on day of *JUDGEMENT*---the day of combat.


GOOOD the word DAY OF JUDGMENT very impressive and depicts full of confidence in chinese equipments.


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## Horse_Rider

Ghessan said:


> we are lacking same here with PAC/PAF to market JF-17, i am afraid if for Blk III with such capabilities, will ruin on marketing and advertising slipping the orders away. this plane has potential to get sales.
> 
> this is not their job simply because they don't know how to market a product.
> 
> my education and work experience with marketing of products in a multinational tells me, it will always be a flop show where ever PAC/PAF market their product.
> 
> it is not with some hoardings and an attractive stall with lights to display and few people standing there with flat faces and attitude that repels people instead of attracting them.
> 
> it is with personnel standing there, lively, energetic with their body language, way of welcoming guests, presenting the product with "appropriate" details and explanation. above all ready to answer all the questions with information available to them in an impressive way.
> 
> when staff says "cheap plane to fly" then later on what ever goodies you put in, you are already failed with first impression.
> 
> even i can do better with my experience doing same for years in so many countries, just feed me info.



Marketing is an art! China is NOT good at marketing at all, period. Pakistan is equally not good at marketing defense equipment, second period. Our marketing capability within Pakistan comes from the likes of Nestle / Johnson and Johnson / Zong / Jazz / Pepsi / Coke, etc, historically. China's doesn't do marketing in it's true nature. It's main message is "cheap product manufacturing", vs. the Western alternatives and they give easy profit by targeting vast majorities of lower to middle income population tiers in nations.

When this "cheaper" message is given with defense products a nation wants to defend itself from it's enemies, you won't find buyers. Nations take out loans but won't compromise on defense equipment or their territorial integrity may be at stake.

JFT block III and J-10, both offer great capability. If you put it to nations with large inventories of Mig-21 / 23, older Mig-29's, older F-16's, older Mirages I/III/V, etc. (target market has over 2000 jets globally), it can smoke away the competition.

For this message to be received and sales to be made, Pakistan and China need to distance themselves and their marketing techniques. They need to hire a Western marketing firm, ideally from Italy / EU. Why? Because the countries in our target list majority speak Italian or French as their second language and have good relations with EU than US/UK. Language has a huge role in marketing. Half the sale is connecting with your client in the language they understand! Let these people do the magic and make $$ in commissions. They will sell the same Sino-Pak products as if it was produced by an Asian LM out of Kamra and Shanghai

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## huanghong

araz said:


> No tangible data on MTBF, MTBOs. No data on war operations and how quickly aircrafts can be turned around for a sortie. What is their breakdown rate in case of high frequency war time use? The problem I have is everything is mired in obscurity. You say "it is the best!" I say "It is the worst"! My question is how do we determine who is right or wrong? These questions will remain till data emerges either of war time usage, or other parameters from Chinese sources. I am absolutely amazed by the progress made by the Chinese and remain a fan of their products. But verifiable data will not be forth coming from Chinese sources and so we will not know where they or we stand
> A


I found some relevant data on WS-10.
With a clear MTBF, is it possible to compare with western engines?


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## araz

huanghong said:


> I found some relevant data on WS-10.
> With a clear MTBF, is it possible to compare with western engines?
> View attachment 906056


Can you translate it please. 
Regards
A


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## huanghong

araz said:


> Can you translate it please.
> Regards
> A


WS-10 Basic Design Index
MTBF 150H
ISFD 0.1/1000EFH
It is a pity that MTBO did not give design indicators

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Luosifen

huanghong said:


> I found some relevant data on WS-10.
> With a clear MTBF, is it possible to compare with western engines?
> View attachment 906056


That looks like specs of the early prototypes of WS-10 that were made many years ago and long surpassed by current variants. It was indeed bad, but that was the state of Chinese engine tech and development back in the 2000s.

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## TopGun786

huanghong said:


> WS-10 Basic Design Index
> MTBF 150H
> ISFD 0.1/1000EFH
> It is a pity that MTBO did not give design indicators


That is a very old information. Probably of the very first stage of operational development.

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## tphuang

LeGenD said:


> Your contact is so enlightening...
> 
> 
> 
> Just like there wasn't a need for interior redesign between J-10B to J-10C.
> 
> 
> 
> I pointed out that J-10C is more advanced than F-16 C/D in a thread back in March without checking any magazine.
> 
> I am also pointing out that F-16V is a massive leap from F-16C/D.
> 
> Your claim is bold.


Yes, he would be a guy with access to these data (he is American fwiw). If you look at PLAAF, they don't really put J-10C in front line anymore. But that's purely due to range. I would be absolutely comfortable have J-10Cs along with KJ-500s defending Chinese air space against F-35s.

For the interior redesign, I think it's worth noting that China did the redesign from J-10A to J-10B back in late 2000s. F-16C/D came out in the early 80s. Whatever you think about China, I think it should be obvious that China would've had access to more advanced electronically systems back in mid to late 2000s vs what America had access to back in early 80s. As such, they would be able to design interior of an aircraft that will be able to more closely match the interior subsystems that are currently available. And just as importantly, J-10B itself was a testbed for technologies they eventually put on J-20. Obviously, J-20 came latter and had space/power for more advanced systems. But J-10B itself was quite the upgrade over J-10A.


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## Ghessan

Horse_Rider said:


> Marketing is an art! China is NOT good at marketing at all, period. Pakistan is equally not good at marketing defense equipment, second period. Our marketing capability within Pakistan comes from the likes of Nestle / Johnson and Johnson / Zong / Jazz / Pepsi / Coke, etc, historically. China's doesn't do marketing in it's true nature. It's main message is "cheap product manufacturing", vs. the Western alternatives and they give easy profit by targeting vast majorities of lower to middle income population tiers in nations.
> 
> When this "cheaper" message is given with defense products a nation wants to defend itself from it's enemies, you won't find buyers. Nations take out loans but won't compromise on defense equipment or their territorial integrity may be at stake.
> 
> JFT block III and J-10, both offers great capability. If you put it to nations with large inventories of Mig-21 / 23, older Mig-29's, older F-16's, older Mirages I/III/V, etc. (target market has over 2000 jets globally), it can smoke away the competition.
> 
> For this message to be received and sales to be made, Pakistan and China need to distance themselves and their marketing techniques. They need to hire a Western marketing firm, ideally from Italy / EU. Why? Because the countries in our target list majority speak Italian or French as their second language and have good relations with EU than US/UK. Language has a huge role in marketing. Half the sale is connecting with your client in the language they understand! Let these people do the magic and make $$ in commissions. They will sell the same Sino-Pak products as if it was produced by an Asian LM out of Kamra and Shanghai



if i don't know what marketing is then for years i've been "jhak marta raha hoon". it is those govt institutions with this "my baap" type of attitude, either it is Pakistan or China. 

it does not mean they don't have potential in those countries with professionals who can really make a change. China, i have been visiting since more than 2.5 decades now besides Hong Kong and Singapore, seen huge difference over 25 years, changed entirely catching people in Singapore and Hong Kong.

they are really innovative at marketing, advertisement promotions, digital marketing etc. etc. people coming back after studying abroad and even Chinese universities ranking high with students competitive and innovative. 

so don't assume whole of China in one direction. and no they do not call it cheap when it comes to defense. isn't it us who when market JF-17 give it such slogans? 

of course, there is no bad in hiring people from western agencies. defense industry is a different league but until we do not shed our ego, won't hire some good people/team to work with.

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## Beast

Horse_Rider said:


> Marketing is an art! China is NOT good at marketing at all, period. Pakistan is equally not good at marketing defense equipment, second period. Our marketing capability within Pakistan comes from the likes of Nestle / Johnson and Johnson / Zong / Jazz / Pepsi / Coke, etc, historically. China's doesn't do marketing in it's true nature. It's main message is "cheap product manufacturing", vs. the Western alternatives and they give easy profit by targeting vast majorities of lower to middle income population tiers in nations.
> 
> When this "cheaper" message is given with defense products a nation wants to defend itself from it's enemies, you won't find buyers. Nations take out loans but won't compromise on defense equipment or their territorial integrity may be at stake.
> 
> JFT block III and J-10, both offers great capability. If you put it to nations with large inventories of Mig-21 / 23, older Mig-29's, older F-16's, older Mirages I/III/V, etc. (target market has over 2000 jets globally), it can smoke away the competition.
> 
> For this message to be received and sales to be made, Pakistan and China need to distance themselves and their marketing techniques. They need to hire a Western marketing firm, ideally from Italy / EU. Why? Because the countries in our target list majority speak Italian or French as their second language and have good relations with EU than US/UK. Language has a huge role in marketing. Half the sale is connecting with your client in the language they understand! Let these people do the magic and make $$ in commissions. They will sell the same Sino-Pak products as if it was produced by an Asian LM out of Kamra and Shanghai


Nothing to do with marketing but more to do with politics and whether weapon export is tie to China foreign affairs strategy.

The Soviet export large number of arms to other countries under the Soviet friendship pact with cheap loan or free for alliance.

China has never model after the Soviet strategy as building a bloc and giving large number of arms to nurture alliance is never the strategy of China. China is also wary of exporting it sensitive technology to other countries with exceptional countries like Pakistan, Thailand.

China arms export are still merely based on profits. If China want, China can easily export hundreds of JF-17 to many third world countries without taking profit into consideration as China is flushed with funds. The most recent example will be the Argentina case where procurement of JF-17 seems to have stall and Argentina are trying hard to press down the price further which per unit of USD 55 million for Blk 3 are the limit of China AVIC. China could have easily closed the deal by reducing to USD30 million per pierce at expense of losses but gaining political ground in south America. But China didn't choose the latter.

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## Horse_Rider

Ghessan said:


> if i don't know what marketing is then for years i've been "jhak marta raha hoon". it is those govt institutions with this "my baap" type of attitude, either it is Pakistan or China.
> 
> it does not mean they don't have potential in those countries with professionals who can really make a change. China, i have been visiting since more than 2.5 decades now besides Hong Kong and Singapore, seen huge difference over 25 years, changed entirely catching people in Singapore and Hong Kong.
> 
> they are really innovative at marketing, advertisement promotions, digital marketing etc. etc. people coming back after studying abroad and even Chinese universities ranking high with students competitive and innovative.
> 
> so don't assume whole of China in one direction. and no they do not call it cheap when it comes to defense. isn't it us who when market JF-17 give it such slogans?
> 
> of course, there is no bad in hiring people from western agencies. defense industry is a different league but until we do not shed our ego, won't hire some good people/team to work with.



I guess I need to explain further and it will be a lecture in a Marketing 501 in some MBA class: Did you know Huawei was the first Telcom to come up with 5G phones about two year ago, before anyone else? Outside of a few, NO! The world doesn't know it. The world doesn't know the Chinese have specialty brands selling for IPhone prices either! Pakistan is essentially a Chinese consumer for about 90% of our product imports, and we probably see just a handful of Chinese products on the media. While we do see American / EU brands, such as Lays, Pepsi, Coke, Cadbury Chocolates (Dairy Milk), Garnier, Loreal, Johnson & Johnson, Nestle, McDonald's, Pizzza Hut, Carrfour, etc.

Marketing medium: There is a language barrier, English is the language of the world, Chinese isn't. Marketing is ONLY done to connect with your customer in the language that they understand "intimately" *to make a sale*, period. Chinese / Japanese / Taiwanese / Asian traditional marketing focuses on "cultural" aspects. While the West focuses on "user trends" and slices the target audience data in more than 2 dozen ways to effectively connect with all potential users. *You know WHO has broken that cultural marketing trend in Asia? The KOREANS!!! *They have adopted Western style user driven marketing, check out their brands everywhere including auto brands across the globe including Pakistan. The Middle East generates billions of dollars revenue yearly for Western products, from Cheese, Honey, Construction, Bridge / Roads to Fighter Jets and Tanks! All West with targeted marketing.

There are no Chinese big ticket items (JFT, J-10C, or otherwise) that other nations outside of Pakistan / Bangladesh / Iran and a few others think are "worthy" and "capable" of spending billion $$ on. Is it true? No, I think the Chinese have started to churn out some capable products. Where is the gap? Marketing!

Add "perception" of your target users and TRUST!! "Perception is reality" so barebones: EU / US defense equipment is battle and time tested for now a century (since WWII). So, using that perception, an EU or American team with a few blondes and a few men speaking English educating clients about a defense product (JFT / J-10C) will SURELY bring in more results than another team with a few Chinese females and male doing the same in English. Period. If you'd deny it, I suggest you find employment with an American / EU brand that usually have a multibillion dollar budget (more than Pakistan's total defense budget for big corporations like Apple, IBM, Pepsi, GM, etc) and expand your horizons.

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## Horse_Rider

Beast said:


> Nothing to do with marketing but more to do with politics and whether weapon export is tie to China foreign affairs strategy.
> 
> The Soviet export large number of arms to other countries under the Soviet friendship pact with cheap loan or free for alliance.
> 
> China has never model after the Soviet strategy as building a bloc and giving large number of arms to nurture alliance is never the strategy of China. China is also wary of exporting it sensitive technology to other countries with exceptional countries like Pakistan, Thailand.
> 
> China arms export are still merely based on profits. If China want, China can easily export hundreds of JF-17 to many third world countries without taking profit into consideration as China is flushed with funds. The most recent example will be the Argentina case where procurement of JF-17 seems to have stall and Argentina are trying hard to press down the price further which per unit of USD 55 million for Blk 3 are the limit of China AVIC. China could have easily closed the deal by reducing to USD30 million per pierce at expense of losses but gaining political ground in south America. But China didn't choose the latter.



I would beg to differ. NO country, business or people in the world would say "NO" to business and $$ money or profit, especially when in large numbers. Argentina is at the same point that I was identifying in a different post with respect to marketing and product trust, they are looking into used options from the West (even had some discussions with the Indians too). The Western options can be refurbished and retro-fitted with advance capability from Israel, if the West doesn't give them all options in their potential upgraded package. Until they have those discussions going, they will sideline the JFT discussion. OR, like you said, you make them so CHEAP that they can't resist (we are back to the magic word CHEAP again sadly). You we need to "untangle" the "cheap" from capable products like the JFT / J-10C. ALL products are designed for exports to make money if you can. You strip out the sensitive technology and downgrade them like the US, French, Brits do, it's a common practice.

Can you imagine Pakistan stopping negotiations for F-16's block 70 with AMRAAM D's if US offered those, and we said "bring the unit cost down from $ 90 million (just example) to $ 55 million because we can buy J-10C / JFT block III for this much? HELL NO! It's a battle tested, time tested platform and it's marketing team lists out it's advanced capability a tier below F-35 (which isn't true but it's marketing and it's still VERY capable). Secondly, comparing to Russia in 2022 doesn't make sense because that was the cold war era with only US- Russia in it. 

The world simply doesn't understand the Chinese products "VALUE offering"!! I think right above is another post to review. I think China / Pakistan should hire a team of defense professionals and lobbyists from EU / West (China is doing it on other fronts) and let them market the Chinese products and explain "value offering" with capability to the globe. That would definitely help.


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## Ghessan

Horse_Rider said:


> I guess I need to explain further and it will be a lecture in a Marketing 501 in some MBA class: Did you know Huawei was the first Telcom to come up with 5G phones about two year ago, before anyone else? Outside of a few, NO! The world doesn't know it. The world doesn't know the Chinese have specialty brands selling for IPhone prices either! Pakistan is essentially a Chinese consumer for about 90% of our product imports, and we probably see just a handful of Chinese products on the media. While we do see American / EU brands, such as Lays, Pepsi, Coke, Cadbury Chocolates (Dairy Milk), Garnier, Loreal, Johnson & Johnson, Nestle, McDonald's, Pizzza Hut, Carrfour, etc.
> 
> Marketing medium: There is a language barrier, English is the language of the world, Chinese isn't. Marketing is ONLY done to connect with your customer in the language that they understand "intimately" *to make a sale*, period. Chinese / Japanese / Taiwanese / Asian traditional marketing focuses on "cultural" aspects. While the West focuses on "user trends" and slices the target audience data in more than 2 dozen ways to effectively connect with all potential users. *You know WHO has broken that cultural marketing trend in Asia? The KOREANS!!! *They have adopted Western style user driven marketing, check out their brands everywhere including auto brands across the globe including Pakistan. The Middle East generates billions of dollars revenue yearly for Western products, from Cheese, Honey, Construction, Bridge / Roads to Fighter Jets and Tanks! All West with targeted marketing.
> 
> There are no Chinese big ticket items (JFT, J-10C, or otherwise) that other nations outside of Pakistan / Bangladesh / Iran and a few others think are "worthy" and "capable" of spending billion $$ on. Is it true? No, I think the Chinese have started to churn out some capable products. Where is the gap? Marketing!
> 
> Add "perception" of your target users and TRUST!! "Perception is reality" so barebones: EU / US defense equipment is battle and time tested for now a century (since WWII). So, using that perception, an EU or American team with a few blondes and a few men speaking English educating clients about a defense product (JFT / J-10C) will SURELY bring in more results than another team with a few Chinese females and male doing the same in English. Period. If you'd deny it, I suggest you find employment with an American / EU brand that usually have a multibillion dollar budget (more than Pakistan's total defense budget for big corporations like Apple, IBM, Pepsi, GM, etc) and expand your horizons.



you are writing such huge paragraphs, don't you know how to explain in a nutshell? come out of college life and see how it works. 

you don't know shit about them, if you ever had some experience meeting them in industry, you would know. you talk about Huawei, learn a bit about it begin from Trump trade war to get yourself enlighten with what and why happened that happened.

you need to visit countries around the world frequently to know them. drain pipe thinking take one no where so get experience with people from around the world. 

i don't speak a lot here but give you golden rule: listen if you want to learn instead of just putting mere words here and there. also, respect your domain, do not go out of it, you'll be stoned.

it will give you some knowledge and am not hopeless with you let's see how you grow. 

and i leave you at that,

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## Bleek

Horse_Rider said:


> I guess I need to explain further and it will be a lecture in a Marketing 501 in some MBA class: Did you know Huawei was the first Telcom to come up with 5G phones about two year ago, before anyone else? Outside of a few, NO! The world doesn't know it. The world doesn't know the Chinese have specialty brands selling for IPhone prices either! Pakistan is essentially a Chinese consumer for about 90% of our product imports, and we probably see just a handful of Chinese products on the media. While we do see American / EU brands, such as Lays, Pepsi, Coke, Cadbury Chocolates (Dairy Milk), Garnier, Loreal, Johnson & Johnson, Nestle, McDonald's, Pizzza Hut, Carrfour, etc.
> 
> Marketing medium: There is a language barrier, English is the language of the world, Chinese isn't. Marketing is ONLY done to connect with your customer in the language that they understand "intimately" *to make a sale*, period. Chinese / Japanese / Taiwanese / Asian traditional marketing focuses on "cultural" aspects. While the West focuses on "user trends" and slices the target audience data in more than 2 dozen ways to effectively connect with all potential users. *You know WHO has broken that cultural marketing trend in Asia? The KOREANS!!! *They have adopted Western style user driven marketing, check out their brands everywhere including auto brands across the globe including Pakistan. The Middle East generates billions of dollars revenue yearly for Western products, from Cheese, Honey, Construction, Bridge / Roads to Fighter Jets and Tanks! All West with targeted marketing.
> 
> There are no Chinese big ticket items (JFT, J-10C, or otherwise) that other nations outside of Pakistan / Bangladesh / Iran and a few others think are "worthy" and "capable" of spending billion $$ on. Is it true? No, I think the Chinese have started to churn out some capable products. Where is the gap? Marketing!
> 
> Add "perception" of your target users and TRUST!! "Perception is reality" so barebones: EU / US defense equipment is battle and time tested for now a century (since WWII). So, using that perception, an EU or American team with a few blondes and a few men speaking English educating clients about a defense product (JFT / J-10C) will SURELY bring in more results than another team with a few Chinese females and male doing the same in English. Period. If you'd deny it, I suggest you find employment with an American / EU brand that usually have a multibillion dollar budget (more than Pakistan's total defense budget for big corporations like Apple, IBM, Pepsi, GM, etc) and expand your horizons.


China has no issues with marketing, it just has no need for aggressive marketing. It's not competing in a highly competive environment, they target countries who would struggle obtaining similar equipment due to political reasons or price restrictions, removing most other options off the table. And then they approach them with their own offers directly for negotiation.

This doesn't require aggressive public marketing as much.

Once they entire a competitive environment with customers who have a choice for western/Russian aircraft included and don't need to restrict too much on budget, they will show you just how capable they are at marketing. Might be the case for the J-35 if they pitch to the Arabs.


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## Windjammer



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 906368


Dragon Riders, assigned to the 33rd Tactical Wing’s No. 15 ‘Cobras’ Squadron, rests on the tarmac after intense training sorties, somewhere in the PAF Central Air Command area-of-responsibility.

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## siegecrossbow

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 906368

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## nomi007

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 906368


Helmets look awesome.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

J-10 duo

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## Trango Towers

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 906368


These boy need to go running...looking a bit healthy


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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Horse_Rider

Bleek said:


> China has no issues with marketing, it just has no need for aggressive marketing. It's not competing in a highly competive environment, they target countries who would struggle obtaining similar equipment due to political reasons or price restrictions, removing most other options off the table. And then they approach them with their own offers directly for negotiation.
> 
> This doesn't require aggressive public marketing as much.
> 
> Once they entire a competitive environment with customers who have a choice for western/Russian aircraft included and don't need to restrict too much on budget, they will show you just how capable they are at marketing. Might be the case for the J-35 if they pitch to the Arabs.



I'd disagree with your thoughts, with respect. China knows it needs to do aggressive marketing to sell it's defense equipment, and that's why they setup Zhuhai airshows and go to other global events. No business or government in the world wants to say NO to billions of dollars worth of business that they can generate!

JF-17 is NOT being pitched as a lower cost fighter. with block III around $ 50 Million and block II was $ 35+ Million or so with various packages. This is no little amount. One can get new Russian jets (vast range), or, used Mirage-2000-5's, used F-16's, Gripen, Tejas, etc, minus the F-16's if one isn't in US's good books. But, J-10 or JFT being Chinese, the customer's mind has to be reset in terms of their higher quality and "mil spec grade" technology, etc, because Chinese products in global consumer's mind are "cheap and low quality". That's clearly not the case here.

It is a very cultural Asian / Pak-Indo way of thinking " we can sell everything if the price was cheap". In Western mindset, the defense companies understand they are good at building defense equipment and not marketing. For which, they contract and hire top end marketing capability. How many international channels show Chinese product marketing in Chinese (outside of China)? There is your answer.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Dragons Line up

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ghazi52

.,.,.

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## LeGenD

tphuang said:


> Yes, he would be a guy with access to these data (he is American fwiw). If you look at PLAAF, they don't really put J-10C in front line anymore. But that's purely due to range. I would be absolutely comfortable have J-10Cs along with KJ-500s defending Chinese air space against F-35s.
> 
> For the interior redesign, I think it's worth noting that China did the redesign from J-10A to J-10B back in late 2000s. F-16C/D came out in the early 80s. Whatever you think about China, I think it should be obvious that China would've had access to more advanced electronically systems back in mid to late 2000s vs what America had access to back in early 80s. As such, they would be able to design interior of an aircraft that will be able to more closely match the interior subsystems that are currently available. And just as importantly, J-10B itself was a testbed for technologies they eventually put on J-20. Obviously, J-20 came latter and had space/power for more advanced systems. But J-10B itself was quite the upgrade over J-10A.



Which version of E-3 your contact alluded to?

E-3A Block 10/15
E-3B/C Block 20/25
E-3B/C Block 30/35 with ESM and RISP
E-3G Block 40/45 with DRAGON

- - -

Using J-10C to defend against F-35? 

F-35 is relatively much more advanced and also much more difficult to detect than J-10C from a distance.

Japanese data for reference:






KJ-500 is equipped with more advanced radar system than the one found in E-3 but to what extent it can make it possible for the J-10C to engage F-35 from a distance? KJ-500 itself will be struggling to detect and track F-35 in real time because principles of radar detection have not changed by much in themselves.

Pay close attention to what experienced pilots have to say about F-35 in following links:









5th-Gen vs 4th-Gen: F-35 Fighter Pilots Compare 4th-Gen Jets to F-35


By Kris Osborn - President & Editor-In-Chief, Warrior Maven With all of the discussion, debate and criticism swirling around the F-35 regarding its long term




warriormaven.com





Further perspective in following link:









Can the same tech on the F-35 be put on a 4th generation fighter like F/A-18's or F-16's? Forget stealth, that clearly can't be an option.


James Smith's answer: Some of it can; the USAF’s F-16s and USMC’s F/A-18s are both receiving new AESA radars similar in technology to the F-35’s (although they’re receiving smaller and less capable versions due to limitations in radome size and cooling). USAF F-15s have also already received AESA...




www.quora.com





Connect the dots.

- - -

Americans have a history of coming up with aircraft designs and even vehicle designs that could accomodate electronics decades ahead of their time with limited amendments. 

There was no need to redesign F-16 from Block 15 [rolled out in 1973] to variants all the way up to Block 72 in the present. This speaks volumes about the level of expertise that was reached in terms of conceptualizing and putting together an aircraft in the 1970s on the American side.

Notable amendment was following:














The Viper's Heterogeneous Intakes


© Pit Aquaheart Most people aren't aware that the iconic F-1...




glomilstrat.blogspot.com





This amendment is in line with the engine offered.

The J-10 project was launched in 1988 and provided invaluable insight to China in terms of HOW to conceptualize, develop, and improve an aircraft from scratch in time. As a neutral observer, I appreciate the effort and respect the machine that came out from it in the form of J-10C in the present. 

I am not sure why the Chinese feel the need to draw *conjectural* parallels between Chinese and American projects of similar nature without being mindful of American headstart in numerous fields. This leads to needless contention and underappreciation of Chinese projects just to set things straight.

This isn't about what I think about China but setting things straight. I think highly of China otherwise.

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## Windjammer

Is the PLAAF also inducting the Comuflage version of the J-10.

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## Bilal.

Windjammer said:


> Is the PLAAF also inducting the Comuflage version of the J-10.
> 
> View attachment 906906


Old J10A camo.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A J10 from PLAAF.

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## ghazi52

,..,
Chinese J-10

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## serenity

Those camo J-10s are NOT PLAAF service J-10s.

Those are prototypes. You can tell by the serial on the side showing 10xx.

The usual designation pattern for PLA service is the number itself, then suffix A, then so on if further blocks or new types that still use the designation. For example with regards to J-10 platform, the first service type is designated as J-10 (early to mid 2000s), after that was J-10A (mid to late 2000s), after that J-10B (early 2010s), after that J-10C (mid 2010s). The camo pattern paint J-10s are before J-10, and of course also before J-10A. Those are the prototypes and while flying in 1990s to 2000s (prototype J-10s and J-9 program) the ones shown with serial 10xx were first shown in mid 2000s when J-10 was ready and started service in PLAAF.

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## Windjammer

The Pilot... And The Plane.

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## Trango Towers

Windjammer said:


> The Pilot... And The Plane.
> 
> View attachment 907158


Any women flying jf17 of j10c? 
That would really cut up our Indian neighbours. As far as I am aware it's on the F7s


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## Windjammer

Trango Towers said:


> Any women flying jf17 of j10c?
> That would really cut up our Indian neighbours. As far as I am aware it's on the F7s


Well, this is first PAF F-16 female pilot.

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## tphuang

LeGenD said:


> Which version of E-3 your contact alluded to?
> 
> E-3A Block 10/15
> E-3B/C Block 20/25
> E-3B/C Block 30/35 with ESM and RISP
> E-3G Block 40/45 with DRAGON


all the E-3 versions. They are just not very good. The E-2Ds can track things much further out.


LeGenD said:


> - - -
> 
> Using J-10C to defend against F-35?
> 
> F-35 is relatively much more advanced and also much more difficult to detect than J-10C from a distance.


don't think about things from 1 to 1 point of view but rather from a system point of view. J-10Cs would not be countering F-35s by themselves but also with all the other sensors in service with PLA.

PL-15 is probably the most capable AMRAAM when it comes to locking onto LO/VLO platform due to having AESA seeker.


LeGenD said:


> Japanese data for reference:


All these are just marketing items that don't mean much in real life. I can tell you that US military determines J-20 to have comparable stealth from frontal aspect as early F-35s (case in point, they use early F-35s in J-20 Aggressor roles). J-10C and J-16 have both done a lot of training against J-20s simulating F-35s and have their share of successes.



LeGenD said:


> KJ-500 is equipped with more advanced radar system than the one found in E-3 but to what extent it can make it possible for the J-10C to engage F-35 from a distance? KJ-500 itself will be struggling to detect and track F-35 in real time because principles of radar detection have not changed by much in themselves.


KJ-500 is much better than E-3. You do realize one is a 2nd generation AESA radar and the other is a mechanically steered radar, right?

Why do you think KJ-500 will struggle to detect F-35s? They can get cued up by other sensors. Narrow beaming L-band radar against something like F-35 is not going to work out too great for F-35s. People are way overstating how hard it is to detect F-35s. This is not the early 2000s anymore. AESA radar, UHF/VHF long range search radars, IRST, sensor fusion, modern machine processing have all gotten a lot better.


LeGenD said:


> Pay close attention to what experienced pilots have to say about F-35 in following links:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5th-Gen vs 4th-Gen: F-35 Fighter Pilots Compare 4th-Gen Jets to F-35
> 
> 
> By Kris Osborn - President & Editor-In-Chief, Warrior Maven With all of the discussion, debate and criticism swirling around the F-35 regarding its long term
> 
> 
> 
> 
> warriormaven.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Further perspective in following link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can the same tech on the F-35 be put on a 4th generation fighter like F/A-18's or F-16's? Forget stealth, that clearly can't be an option.
> 
> 
> James Smith's answer: Some of it can; the USAF’s F-16s and USMC’s F/A-18s are both receiving new AESA radars similar in technology to the F-35’s (although they’re receiving smaller and less capable versions due to limitations in radome size and cooling). USAF F-15s have also already received AESA...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.quora.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Connect the dots.


I don't need to read quora posts. Chinese sources say they can easily track all 3 variants of F-35s. My DoD contact says that persistent tracking of F-35s can be established all the way to 1st island chain.


LeGenD said:


> Americans have a history of coming up with aircraft designs and even vehicle designs that could accomodate electronics decades ahead of their time with limited amendments.
> 
> There was no need to redesign F-16 from Block 15 [rolled out in 1973] to variants all the way up to Block 72 in the present. This speaks volumes about the level of expertise that was reached in terms of conceptualizing and putting together an aircraft in the 1970s on the American side.


Seems like you are working too hard to justify prior belief.


LeGenD said:


> The J-10 project was launched in 1988 and provided invaluable insight to China in terms of HOW to conceptualize, develop, and improve an aircraft from scratch in time. As a neutral observer, I appreciate the effort and respect the machine that came out from it in the form of J-10C in the present.
> 
> I am not sure why the Chinese feel the need to draw *conjectural* parallels between Chinese and American projects of similar nature without being mindful of American headstart in numerous fields. This leads to needless contention and underappreciation of Chinese projects just to set things straight.
> 
> This isn't about what I think about China but setting things straight. I think highly of China otherwise.


no, I think you are just unaware of where China is at right now. The problem when it comes to PLA watching is that they advance too fast. People are often years behind in their assessment. Unless you have classified info or are completely in tune with Chinese sources, it's really just hard for you to appreciate these things.

At this point, I really don't think too highly of F-16s. F-18s are clearly the best 4th gen aircraft us military has. USAF are just keeping F-16s around to keep the numbers high. I actually don't think that highly of J-10Cs either. If PLAAF buys more J-10C after this year, I would be disappointed. They are fine for defending air space against Russians and Indians, but just not suitable for a westpac conflict.

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## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> Well, this is first PAF F-16 female pilot.
> 
> View attachment 907162


Coincidently..., she was also the first on the JF-17 before moving on to the Viper with No. 19 (Sherdils).

Currently with No. 11 _(Arrows)_.

The only other female i'm aware of that is currently on the JF-17 is F/L Z***** who is with Sqn No. 26 (Black Spiders).

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## Valiant

J-10 looks utterly menacing and extremely imposing. Very aesthetically pleasing jet, almost on par with Vipers

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## syed_yusuf

Valiant said:


> J-10 looks utterly menacing and extremely imposing. Very aesthetically pleasing jet, almost on par with Vipers


i would rate them as good as blk 70 f-16

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## S10

Windjammer said:


> Is the PLAAF also inducting the Comuflage version of the J-10.
> 
> View attachment 906906


These photos are at least 15 years old. Domestic production of J-10 in China will likely stop in the next few years to focus on J-20, drones and next generation fighter. CAC will still make spare parts and upgrade kits, but probably won't build new planes by 2025.


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## arslank03

LeGenD said:


> Which version of E-3 your contact alluded to?
> 
> E-3A Block 10/15
> E-3B/C Block 20/25
> E-3B/C Block 30/35 with ESM and RISP
> E-3G Block 40/45 with DRAGON
> 
> - - -
> 
> Using J-10C to defend against F-35?
> 
> F-35 is relatively much more advanced and also much more difficult to detect than J-10C from a distance.
> 
> Japanese data for reference:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KJ-500 is equipped with more advanced radar system than the one found in E-3 but to what extent it can make it possible for the J-10C to engage F-35 from a distance? KJ-500 itself will be struggling to detect and track F-35 in real time because principles of radar detection have not changed by much in themselves.
> 
> Pay close attention to what experienced pilots have to say about F-35 in following links:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5th-Gen vs 4th-Gen: F-35 Fighter Pilots Compare 4th-Gen Jets to F-35
> 
> 
> By Kris Osborn - President & Editor-In-Chief, Warrior Maven With all of the discussion, debate and criticism swirling around the F-35 regarding its long term
> 
> 
> 
> 
> warriormaven.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Further perspective in following link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can the same tech on the F-35 be put on a 4th generation fighter like F/A-18's or F-16's? Forget stealth, that clearly can't be an option.
> 
> 
> James Smith's answer: Some of it can; the USAF’s F-16s and USMC’s F/A-18s are both receiving new AESA radars similar in technology to the F-35’s (although they’re receiving smaller and less capable versions due to limitations in radome size and cooling). USAF F-15s have also already received AESA...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.quora.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Connect the dots.
> 
> - - -
> 
> Americans have a history of coming up with aircraft designs and even vehicle designs that could accomodate electronics decades ahead of their time with limited amendments.
> 
> There was no need to redesign F-16 from Block 15 [rolled out in 1973] to variants all the way up to Block 72 in the present. This speaks volumes about the level of expertise that was reached in terms of conceptualizing and putting together an aircraft in the 1970s on the American side.
> 
> Notable amendment was following:
> 
> View attachment 906812
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Viper's Heterogeneous Intakes
> 
> 
> © Pit Aquaheart Most people aren't aware that the iconic F-1...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> glomilstrat.blogspot.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This amendment is in line with the engine offered.
> 
> The J-10 project was launched in 1988 and provided invaluable insight to China in terms of HOW to conceptualize, develop, and improve an aircraft from scratch in time. As a neutral observer, I appreciate the effort and respect the machine that came out from it in the form of J-10C in the present.
> 
> I am not sure why the Chinese feel the need to draw *conjectural* parallels between Chinese and American projects of similar nature without being mindful of American headstart in numerous fields. This leads to needless contention and underappreciation of Chinese projects just to set things straight.
> 
> This isn't about what I think about China but setting things straight. I think highly of China otherwise.



Even cooler was a lot of the radar improvement on the f16 was just LRU/Back end with the same antenna from memory, pretty neat if you ask me.



tphuang said:


> all the E-3 versions. They are just not very good. The E-2Ds can track things much further out.
> 
> don't think about things from 1 to 1 point of view but rather from a system point of view. J-10Cs would not be countering F-35s by themselves but also with all the other sensors in service with PLA.
> 
> PL-15 is probably the most capable AMRAAM when it comes to locking onto LO/VLO platform due to having AESA seeker.
> 
> All these are just marketing items that don't mean much in real life. I can tell you that US military determines J-20 to have comparable stealth from frontal aspect as early F-35s (case in point, they use early F-35s in J-20 Aggressor roles). J-10C and J-16 have both done a lot of training against J-20s simulating F-35s and have their share of successes.
> 
> 
> KJ-500 is much better than E-3. You do realize one is a 2nd generation AESA radar and the other is a mechanically steered radar, right?
> 
> Why do you think KJ-500 will struggle to detect F-35s? They can get cued up by other sensors. Narrow beaming L-band radar against something like F-35 is not going to work out too great for F-35s. People are way overstating how hard it is to detect F-35s. This is not the early 2000s anymore. AESA radar, UHF/VHF long range search radars, IRST, sensor fusion, modern machine processing have all gotten a lot better.
> 
> I don't need to read quora posts. Chinese sources say they can easily track all 3 variants of F-35s. My DoD contact says that persistent tracking of F-35s can be established all the way to 1st island chain.
> 
> Seems like you are working too hard to justify prior belief.
> 
> no, I think you are just unaware of where China is at right now. The problem when it comes to PLA watching is that they advance too fast. People are often years behind in their assessment. Unless you have classified info or are completely in tune with Chinese sources, it's really just hard for you to appreciate these things.
> 
> At this point, I really don't think too highly of F-16s. F-18s are clearly the best 4th gen aircraft us military has. USAF are just keeping F-16s around to keep the numbers high. I actually don't think that highly of J-10Cs either. If PLAAF buys more J-10C after this year, I would be disappointed. They are fine for defending air space against Russians and Indians, but just not suitable for a westpac conflict.


Wow. Sources in both us dod and China giving you such critical info? Have you ever considered working for some mil intel somewhere?


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## TopGun786

Pakistan Air Force 🇵🇰 Chengdu J-10CE 🐲 multi-role fighter armed with PL-15E BVR and PL-10E HOBS Missiles.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Ali_Baba

TopGun786 said:


> Pakistan Air Force 🇵🇰 Chengdu J-10CE 🐲 multi-role fighter armed with PL-15E BVR and PL-10E HOBS Missiles.
> View attachment 907609



PAF really needs to hire some professional photographers to take pictures for its calendars. Those pictures are poorly framed interms of the picture and the setup ...

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Trango Towers

Windjammer said:


> Well, this is first PAF F-16 female pilot.
> 
> View attachment 907162


Oh that's will require a truck of burnol

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## NA71

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,


with IRST ?


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## syed_yusuf

NA71 said:


> with IRST ?


with EOTS, it is integrated to j10c

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## White and Green with M/S

syed_yusuf said:


> with EOTS, it is integrated to j10c


No j10c is not using EOTS but standard IRST , EOTS is only used by J20 and J35

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## NA71

I asked CHATGPT about J-10C:






Indian friends would blame CHATGPT is biased

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## Ali_Baba

NA71 said:


> I asked CHATGPT about J-10C:
> 
> View attachment 907695
> 
> 
> Indian friends would blame CHATGPT is biased



- Ask ChatGpt if the Tejas is better than the F22 Raptor ..... lol.. 

- Ask it why did the MKI Raptor of East get shot down by "an inferior" F16.

- Ask it why Indians like to live in a world of self dellusional fantasty of lies, deception and make believe ?

- Ask it how many wars the Indian-keyboard warriors have won ?

( i really should create my own account at this rate !!!!!!!! )....

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

I have to admit the guts and brains of the PAF! Even during the worst year possible for Pak they are accumulating their resources and multiplying their strength with a singularity of purpose and mind.....

The way the PAF, in comparison and contrast to the IAF, leveraging their sources - be it China, Turkey, USA, or anybody else - is amazing! They have got J-10Cs, are harnessing JF-17Cs, are getting hold on all of the Turkish aviation and EW related staffs (as if they're involved with them as partners) etc. as if there's no tomorrow....

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## LeGenD

tphuang said:


> all the E-3 versions. They are just not very good. The E-2Ds can track things much further out.



E-3 is a time-tested and battle-proven platform. The latest E3G variant (Block 40/45 standard) is equipped with technologies that are relevant for modern warfare needs. E3G was able to monitor, process, and facilitate activities in Syrian airspace where SyADF (Syrian), VKS (Russian), USAF (American), and USN (American) were active for relevant missions and neighboring countries such as Israel and Turkey would get involved intermittently with air arms for distinct pursuits, to avert accidents and make sure that American mission on the ground will succeed. E3G was also involved in incidents in which NATO aircraft engaged and shot down VKS aircraft in the region.

There is so much to a radar system then applying AESA TRMs on it and call it a day.

_A radar system can scan a search volume either by mechanically rotating the antenna or by using a phased-array antenna and performing electronic scanning. Imperfectly shaped antenna beams and the process of sweeping the beam across a search volume introduce additional losses to the system. Electronically steered phased arrays can impact the SNR due to beam broadening and a reduction in the effective aperture area of individual elements when steering off the radar boresight.

Prior to detection, the received radar echoes must pass through the radar signal-processing chain. The purpose of different components in the signal-processing chain is to guarantee the required probabilities of detection and false alarm, reject unwanted echoes from clutter, and account for non-Gaussian noise._



StackPath



The trick is in a well-tested combination of antenna design, waveform technique, peak transmit power, sophisticated algorithms, and information processing technologies, to effectively scan a search volume and improve line-of-sight irrespective of the approach used (purple highlights).

The AN/APY-2 radar system is OFFICIALLY stated to use High PRF pulse doppler waveform in S-band to search for and distinguish airborne targets from clutter returns. But it was found to contain ultra low sidelobe antennas at a closer look. Whoops.

The AN/APY-2 radar received RSIP treatment:

_"In order to counter today's increasing threat sophistication, the AWACS radar system has been significantly upgraded under the radar system improvement program (RISP). The RISP modifications enhance radar performance characteristics, add new capabilities, improve the user interface, and lower the life-cycle cost of the AWACS radar, while improving reliability." _- LOCKHEED MARTIN

Generic statement.

_"RSIP introduces advanced Pulse Doppler waveforms, pulse compression, and new processing algorithms implemented by hardware and software improvements that allow the system to detect and track targets at up to twice the range of original AWACS."_ - Lockheed Martin

More specific here.

I was able to read between the lines with homework - RSIP was aimed to transform AN/APY-2 into a multi-mode PESA radar system. HYBRID architecture was created since AN/APY-2 RSIP can scan the environment in several ways using Pulse Doppler, Non Pulse Doppler, and Combined approaches:

- Pulse Doppler Nonelevation Scan (PDNES)
- Beyond-the-Horizon (BTH)
- Interleaved
- Pulse Doppler Elevation Scan (PDES)
- Maritime
- Passive

Related information in here.

RSIP provides the capability to detect up to 100 airborne targets having a small RCS in the face of Electronic Countermeasures employed by opposing forces. Target detection range was significantly increased as well. New computer systems were installed to process information by AN/APY-2 RSIP. One of these is the Surveillance Radar Computer (SRC) capable of performing over 24 billion operations per second.

Another addition is implementation of the AN/UPX-40 system:

_“The UPX-40 dramatically improves the detection of weak signals or maneuvering targets at maximum range and improves detection of targets at all ranges.” _- Nick Grudziecki

Yet another addition is implementation of DRAGON system:














45 years of Boeing E-3 Sentry - a brief history of AWACS —


25th May 2021 marked exactly 45 years since the first flight of Boeing E-3 Sentry. And that makes a perfect occasion to tell the story of this iconic ‘guardian of the skies’. Origins of the [...]




afterburner.com.pl





Compare the above with original cockpit in here.

E-3G is a transformed platform by extension.

E-3G is unlikely to struggle with detecting and tracking J-10C from a respectable distance but it might struggle to detect and track J-20 from a respectable distance. Enter E-2D.

E-2D is equipped with superior AN/APY-9 radar system, and solves the problem of detecting and tracking all types of Chinese aerial assets from a respectable distance for USAF and USN. J-20 is designed to deflect and absorb radar waves across frequency bands ranging from S to Ku by virtue of its shaping and Chinese RAM application but less effective in either extremes and beyond; canards and all-moving vertical stabilizers are a significant source of specular reflection across a large area.

I was of the view that AN/APY-2 is obsolete until I learned about RSIP update. This system might not hold a candle to AN/APY-9 but it is up to the task for modern warfare needs as it proved itself in Syrian conflict situation where several countries were active for different reasons.

I am somewhat skeptical about your contact. He might be withholding information from you.



tphuang said:


> don't think about things from 1 to 1 point of view but rather from a system point of view. J-10Cs would not be countering F-35s by themselves but also with all the other sensors in service with PLA.
> 
> PL-15 is probably the most capable AMRAAM when it comes to locking onto LO/VLO platform due to having AESA seeker.
> 
> All these are just marketing items that don't mean much in real life. I can tell you that US military determines J-20 to have comparable stealth from frontal aspect as early F-35s (case in point, they use early F-35s in J-20 Aggressor roles). J-10C and J-16 have both done a lot of training against J-20s simulating F-35s and have their share of successes.
> 
> 
> KJ-500 is much better than E-3. You do realize one is a 2nd generation AESA radar and the other is a mechanically steered radar, right?
> 
> Why do you think KJ-500 will struggle to detect F-35s? They can get cued up by other sensors. Narrow beaming L-band radar against something like F-35 is not going to work out too great for F-35s. People are way overstating how hard it is to detect F-35s. This is not the early 2000s anymore. AESA radar, UHF/VHF long range search radars, IRST, sensor fusion, modern machine processing have all gotten a lot better.
> 
> I don't need to read quora posts. Chinese sources say they can easily track all 3 variants of F-35s. My DoD contact says that persistent tracking of F-35s can be established all the way to 1st island chain.
> 
> Seems like you are working too hard to justify prior belief.
> 
> no, I think you are just unaware of where China is at right now. The problem when it comes to PLA watching is that they advance too fast. People are often years behind in their assessment. Unless you have classified info or are completely in tune with Chinese sources, it's really just hard for you to appreciate these things.
> 
> At this point, I really don't think too highly of F-16s. F-18s are clearly the best 4th gen aircraft us military has. USAF are just keeping F-16s around to keep the numbers high. I actually don't think that highly of J-10Cs either. If PLAAF buys more J-10C after this year, I would be disappointed. They are fine for defending air space against Russians and Indians, but just not suitable for a westpac conflict.



System point of view cut both ways, dear.

You need to be more specific about the battle scenario that you have in your mind. WHERE do you expect a battle with US to take place? What is the force composition of China in the relevant region? What is the objective of US in the relevant region?

Eastern Theater Command -- Taiwan, East China Sea
Southern Theater Command -- South China Sea; Southeast Asia border security; territorial disputes
Western Theater Command -- India, Central Asia, "counter-terrorism" in Xinjiang and Tibet
Northern Theater Command -- Korean Peninsula, Russia border security
Central Theater Command -- Capital defense; surge support to other theaters

Many Chinese do not understand how US might fight a war with a near-peer adversary and on what grounds. F-35 has limited capacity to ingress into Chinese mainland on its own. USAF will have to deploy air refueling tankers to support F-35 in this capacity. But US doesn't need to adopt this approach to take on Chinese defenses in the relevant region.

- - -






B-2A might be the aircraft of choice to ingress into Chinese mainland to take on Chinese defenses and infrastructure:






This comparison shows that just two B-2A are sufficient to produce "battlefield effects" that would take multiple aircraft to replicate otherwise. And there is no need to use air refueling tankers for B-2A.

- Costs are reduced.
- Complexity is reduced.
- Probability of suffering losses is reduced.

But US will not stress a single platform for a military operation inside China - Tomahawk Block 4 cruise missiles might be unleashed from ships* and submarines** to complement operations of B-2A to do the needful.






*Arleigh Burke class destroyers and Ticonderoga class cruisers are equipped with an assortment of well-developed munitions that can be used to intercept cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, UAVs, and aircraft. These ships can work together to create a common picture of the threat environment and will not be easy to defeat. China is expected to use DF-21D and DF-26 ASBM to engage USN ships in the Pacific. USN has conducted a large number of live-fire tests to develop the capability to intercept ASBMs. But USN will attempt to take out launchers of DF-21D and DF-26 as well.






**Ohio-class submarine(s) do not need to surface for a long period of time courtesy of the onboard power plant technology and can get close to a country without warning to do their bidding.

- - -

F-35 might be used to provide ISR to USN and engage PLAAF if it comes after USN in the Pacific.

F-35 is designed to deflect and absorb radar waves across a number of frequency bands ranging from L to V by virtue of its shaping and RAM application. These measures allow F-35 to reduce line-of-sight of various radar systems for it to maneuver through the threat environment.






Those radar systems which can detect F-35 such as Chinese YLC-8E might not be able to track it in real time for long -- F-35 is equipped with state-of-the-art broadband EW capabilities for good reason. Combat tactics is another factor -- F-35 offers unprecedented situational awareness to the pilot who in turn will not wait for the kill chain to establish and work against him but engage and destroy valuable targets at earliest opportunity. If this is not possible then F-35 can be used to illuminate YLC-8E among other radar systems on the surface for the USN to take out with a barrage of Tomahawks. The benefits of CEC are boundless. Radar systems on the surface are vulnerable to decapitating strikes but airborne platforms like E-2D can survive with air escort. You might have faith in A2/AD systems like HQ-9 but virtually nothing could stop a volley of Tomahawks from approaching desired targets in conflicts around the world and these cruise missiles are kept up to date. Tomahawks have onboard EW capabilities, can be programmed to bypass threat zones, can be instructed to change course, and adopt terrain-hugging approach to reach desired targets. The window of opportunity to detect and intercept these cruise missiles is very small and a volley is virtually impossible to stop.

But PLAAF is in the air? Enter squadrons.

Imagine dozens of F-35 operating in a threat environment taking cues from each other as well as from other assets including E-2D and E3G. Imagine the effectiveness of this force.

For perspective:

A Blue Force composed of 8 jet fighters (F-35B = 4; Others = 4), was able to achieve a kill ratio of (20 - 1) against a RED Force composed of 20 jet fighters in a RED FLAG event scheduled in 2017. These F-35B were older Block 2B standard and pilots were coming to terms with its capabilities.






To be fair, J-10C, J-16, and J-20 are better than these. But F-35 is much more capable at Block 3F standard in comparison to Block 2B standard and E-2D can add a whole new dimension to its operations in a threat environment.

RED FLAG is also being revisited in its representation of threat environment(s) with new entrants and perceived complexities as pointed out in here, here, and here, and J-20 is being simulated as a part of the training regime for the Blue Force in the present.









F-35 Stealth Fighters Are Revolutionizing The USAF's Aggressor Force


We spoke to the boss of the 65th Aggressor Squadron, flying the F-35 — the Air Force’s latest red air incarnation.




www.thedrive.com










You can see how advanced Aggressor Squadrons have become.

USAF and USN are training to fight PLAAF.



tphuang said:


> PL-15 is probably the most capable AMRAAM when it comes to locking onto LO/VLO platform due to having AESA seeker.
> 
> All these are just marketing items that don't mean much in real life. I can tell you that US military determines J-20 to have comparable stealth from frontal aspect as early F-35s (case in point, they use early F-35s in J-20 Aggressor roles). J-10C and J-16 have both done a lot of training against J-20s simulating F-35s and have their share of successes.
> 
> 
> KJ-500 is much better than E-3. You do realize one is a 2nd generation AESA radar and the other is a mechanically steered radar, right?
> 
> Why do you think KJ-500 will struggle to detect F-35s? They can get cued up by other sensors. Narrow beaming L-band radar against something like F-35 is not going to work out too great for F-35s. People are way overstating how hard it is to detect F-35s. This is not the early 2000s anymore. AESA radar, UHF/VHF long range search radars, IRST, sensor fusion, modern machine processing have all gotten a lot better.



PL-15 is impressive but a pilot needs to obtain "weapons-grade lock" on the target to use it which will be very difficult to achieve in the BVR regime against an F-35 in view of the aforementioned.

F-35 will be able to obtain "weapons-grade lock" on every PLAAF jet fighter from a respectable distance with support of E-2D and to lesser extent E3G on the other hand in view of the aforementioned. AIM-120D is very capable in the BVR regime.

F-35 is very capable in the WVR regime as well due to its formidable EW capabilities and sensor fusion, and the pilot has the option to use both AIM-9X and AIM-120D to engage opposing aircraft in the WVR regime. AIM-120 class can deliver results in the WVR regime as well.

How many jet fighters PLAAF is willing to loose to engage and defeat each F-35 operating in a system of airborne assets? (20 - 1)? (15 - 1)? (10 - 1)? (5 - 1)? Get my drift?

- - -

Marketing items? Japanese data is credible. The AWACS in question might be Japanese E3 variant. RCS figure(s) of the jet fighters are corroborated with official revelations and relevant patents and valid for S-band.

KJ-500 is equipped with a radar system having AESA TRMs which is great but are you privy to its algorithms, waveform technique, and peak transmit power? What I know is that it can detect up to 100 airborne targets and operates in the L-band. The radar system might be good enough to detect cruise missiles and possibly J-20 but... F-35 is VLO across bands ranging from L to V with formidable EW capabilities (see above). This is why I am of the view that KJ-500 itself will be struggling to detect and track F-35 in real time.



tphuang said:


> I don't need to read quora posts. Chinese sources say they can easily track all 3 variants of F-35s. My DoD contact says that persistent tracking of F-35s can be established all the way to 1st island chain.
> 
> Seems like you are working too hard to justify prior belief.
> 
> no, I think you are just unaware of where China is at right now. The problem when it comes to PLA watching is that they advance too fast. People are often years behind in their assessment. Unless you have classified info or are completely in tune with Chinese sources, it's really just hard for you to appreciate these things.
> 
> At this point, I really don't think too highly of F-16s. F-18s are clearly the best 4th gen aircraft us military has. USAF are just keeping F-16s around to keep the numbers high. I actually don't think that highly of J-10Cs either. If PLAAF buys more J-10C after this year, I would be disappointed. They are fine for defending air space against Russians and Indians, but just not suitable for a westpac conflict.



Speaking of sources, Venezuela claimed to have detected and discouraged an F-22A operating nearby courtesy of the Chinese JY-27A radar system - a story that was used to create unrealistic hype of this radar system in here (hundreds fooled) but a realistic take on this radar system is in here. Americans didn't even bother to address this claim. You might have heard of Luneburg lens. You should request your contact to take you to RED FLAG - let me know your findings.

Quora posts might be trash on average but well-informed people are also active on the platform and provide valuable information from time-to-time. Valuable knowledge can be found anywhere including on PDF.

I understand that belief is not convincing, and prefer to work with Facts & Figures or with realistic approximations in case of lack of data. I had a debate with a Russian member about 5th generation fighters and I attempted to convince him with meaningful information that F-22A is much more stealthy than Su-57 but he was dismissive. Well-informed individuals and independent analysis proved me right. Maybe common sense comes to a person naturally - it is not common though.

I am mindful of Chinese advances and appreciate them in person. But I have some observations. China has benefited tremendously from Foreign investments in general, and from purchasing European technologies to develop Chinese tech base in particular, and with this dynamic comes the capacity to compete with US on many counts. Both UK and Germany are significant contributors to Chinese tech base on many counts. Some pointers for reference below.



https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09592296.2021.1883865











Germany gave crucial submarines and destroyers tech to China right under the nose of the EU


The bilateral trade between Germany and China reached $258 billion in 2020, and China enjoys a massive trade surplus of $20.24 billion over Germany.




tfiglobalnews.com













Made in Germany, Co-opted by China


Analysis, Monographs | October 14, 2020 |




www.fdd.org













ARM and SMIC Collaborate To Develop ARM Core-based Test Chip For China


ARM and SMIC Collaborate To Develop ARM Core-based Test Chip For China




www.design-reuse.com













UK ministers quietly approve Chinese microchip factory takeover


Nexperia, a Dutch subsidiary of the Chinese technology company Wingtech, engineered a takeover of Newport Wafer Fab last spring.




www.politico.eu





But US is spooked and have resorted to export controls:









China's Access to Arm's Advanced Chip Designs Limited by U.S. Export Controls


Chinese chip designers can't access high-performance CPU IP.




www.tomshardware.com





The export controls might tighten in time and China will be compelled to develop domestic solutions as noted in following link:









CPC delegate Hu Weiwu: China has to make its own CPU and operating system


A delegate to the 20th National Congress of the Communist Party of China (CPC) has called for more efforts towards developing self-reliant computer technologies.According to Hu, China's IT industry has been mainly built on two foreign technology platforms-




news.cgtn.com





US is a bonafide tech powerhouse on the other hand. US will also attempt to cut off China from Western tech flows. China needs to reflect on this issue and adopt conciliatory tone with Western countries. China also needs to focus on developing on homegrown solutions.

But Chinese are becoming over-confident and looking down on American technologies and underestimating American technological advances. This is bad judgement. One should not grow complacent.









Farewell And Adieu Fair Spanish Ladies' - Capt Quint from Jaws | Edge Studio


Farewell and adieu to you, fair Spanish ladies. Farewell and adieu, you ladies of Spain For we’ve received orders for [...]




edgestudio.com





F-16 Block 70/72 is a significant leap from the older Block 50/52 on all counts:

_The most advanced version of the F-16, the Block 70/72 mounts the APG-83 active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar, a new electronic warfare suite called Viper Shield, a more powerful mission computer, an updated cockpit with larger color displays—including zoom and the ability to rearrange displayed information—an uprated engine, capability for most modern weapons, conformal overwing fuel tanks and an infrared search-and-track system and targeting pod capability, improved data links, precision GPS navigation, and an automatic ground collision avoidance system (GCAS), among other improvements. The Block 70/72 also has a structural service life of 12,000 hours, about 50 percent longer than previous F-16s, meaning the type could stay in service until 2060 or so._









First F-16 Block 70 Emerges From Lockheed Martin’s New Factory—128 More on Order | Air & Space Forces Magazine


The first F-16 of the Block 70/72 configuration has rolled out of Lockheed Martin’s Greenville, S.C., facility.




www.airandspaceforces.com





Anyways, nice talking to you.

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## GriffinsRule

LeGenD said:


> E-3 is a time-tested and battle-proven platform. The latest E3G variant (Block 40/45 standard) is equipped with technologies that are relevant for modern warfare needs. E3G was able to monitor, process, and facilitate activities in Syrian airspace where SyADF (Syrian), VKS (Russian, USAF (American), and USN (American) were active for relevant missions and neighboring countries such as Israel and Turkey would get involved intermittently with air arms for distinct pursuits, to avert accidents and make sure that American mission on the ground will succeed. E3G was also involved in incidents in which NATO aircraft engaged and shot down VKS aircraft in the region.
> 
> There is so much to a radar system then applying AESA TRMs on it and call it a day.
> 
> _A radar system can scan a search volume either by mechanically rotating the antenna or by using a phased-array antenna and performing electronic scanning. Imperfectly shaped antenna beams and the process of sweeping the beam across a search volume introduce additional losses to the system. Electronically steered phased arrays can impact the SNR due to beam broadening and a reduction in the effective aperture area of individual elements when steering off the radar boresight.
> 
> Prior to detection, the received radar echoes must pass through the radar signal-processing chain. The purpose of different components in the signal-processing chain is to guarantee the required probabilities of detection and false alarm, reject unwanted echoes from clutter, and account for non-Gaussian noise._
> 
> 
> 
> StackPath
> 
> 
> 
> The trick is in a well-tested combination of antenna design, waveform technique, peak transmit power, sophisticated algorithms, and information processing technologies, to effectively scan a search volume and improve line-of-sight irrespective of the approach used (purple highlights).
> 
> The AN/APY-2 radar system is OFFICIALLY stated to use High PRF pulse doppler waveform in S-band to search for and distinguish airborne targets from clutter returns. But it was found to contain ultra low sidelobe antennas at a closer look. Whoops.
> 
> The AN/APY-2 radar received RSIP treatment:
> 
> _"In order to counter today's increasing threat sophistication, the AWACS radar system has been significantly upgraded under the radar system improvement program (RISP). The RISP modifications enhance radar performance characteristics, add new capabilities, improve the user interface, and lower the life-cycle cost of the AWACS radar, while improving reliability." _- LOCKHEED MARTIN
> 
> Generic statement.
> 
> _"RSIP introduces advanced Pulse Doppler waveforms, pulse compression, and new processing algorithms implemented by hardware and software improvements that allow the system to detect and track targets at up to twice the range of original AWACS."_ - Lockheed Martin
> 
> More specific here.
> 
> I was able to read between the lines with homework - RSIP was aimed to transform AN/APY-2 into a multi-mode PESA radar system. HYBRID architecture was created since AN/APY-2 RSIP can scan the environment in several ways using Pulse Doppler, Non Pulse Doppler, and Combined approaches:
> 
> - Pulse Doppler Nonelevation Scan (PDNES)
> - Beyond-the-Horizon (BTH)
> - Interleaved
> - Pulse Doppler Elevation Scan (PDES)
> - Maritime
> - Passive
> 
> Related information in here.
> 
> RSIP provides the capability to detect up to 100 airborne targets having a small RCS in the face of Electronic Countermeasures employed by opposing forces. Target detection range was significantly increased as well. New computer systems were installed to process information by AN/APY-2 RSIP. One of these is the Surveillance Radar Computer (SRC) capable of performing over 24 billion operations per second.
> 
> Another addition is implementation of the AN/UPX-40 system:
> 
> _“The UPX-40 dramatically improves the detection of weak signals or maneuvering targets at maximum range and improves detection of targets at all ranges.” _- Nick Grudziecki
> 
> Yet another addition is implementation of DRAGON system:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 45 years of Boeing E-3 Sentry - a brief history of AWACS —
> 
> 
> 25th May 2021 marked exactly 45 years since the first flight of Boeing E-3 Sentry. And that makes a perfect occasion to tell the story of this iconic ‘guardian of the skies’. Origins of the [...]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> afterburner.com.pl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compare the above with original cockpit in here.
> 
> E-3G is a transformed platform by extension.
> 
> E-3G is unlikely to struggle with detecting and tracking J-10C from a respectable distance but it might struggle to detect and track J-20 from a respectable distance. Enter E-2D.
> 
> E-2D is equipped with superior AN/APY-9 radar system, and solves the problem of detecting and tracking all types of Chinese aerial assets from a respectable distance for USAF and USN. J-20 is designed to deflect and absorb radar waves across frequency bands ranging from S to Ku by virtue of its shaping and Chinese RAM application but less effective in either extremes and beyond; canards and all-moving vertical stabilizers are a significant source of specular reflection across a large area.
> 
> I was of the view that AN/APY-2 is obsolete until I learned about RSIP update. This system might not hold a candle to AN/APY-9 but it is up to the task for modern warfare needs as it proved itself in Syrian conflict situation where several countries were active for different reasons.
> 
> I am somewhat skeptical about your contact. He might be withholding information from you.
> 
> 
> 
> System point of view cut both ways, dear.
> 
> You need to be more specific about the battle scenario that you have in your mind. WHERE do you expect a battle with US to take place? What is the force composition of China in the relevant region? What is the objective of US in the relevant region?
> 
> Eastern Theater Command -- Taiwan, East China Sea
> Southern Theater Command -- South China Sea; Southeast Asia border security; territorial disputes
> Western Theater Command -- India, Central Asia, "counter-terrorism" in Xinjiang and Tibet
> Northern Theater Command -- Korean Peninsula, Russia border security
> Central Theater Command -- Capital defense; surge support to other theaters
> 
> Many Chinese do not understand how US might fight a war with a near-peer adversary and on what grounds. F-35 has limited capacity to ingress into Chinese mainland on its own. USAF will have to deploy air refueling tankers to support F-35 in this capacity. But US doesn't need to adopt this approach to take on Chinese defenses in the relevant region.
> 
> - - -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B-2A might be the aircraft of choice to ingress into Chinese mainland to take on Chinese defenses and infrastructure:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This comparison shows that just two B-2A are sufficient to produce "battlefield effects" that would take multiple aircraft to replicate otherwise. And there is no need to use air refueling tankers for B-2A.
> 
> - Costs are reduced.
> - Complexity is reduced.
> - Probability of suffering losses is reduced.
> 
> But US will not stress a single platform for a military operation inside China - Tomahawk Block 4 cruise missiles might be unleashed from ships* and submarines** to complement operations of B-2A to do the needful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Arleigh Burke class destroyers and Ticonderoga class cruisers are equipped with an assortment of well-developed munitions that can be used to intercept cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, UAVs, and aircraft. These ships can work together to create a common picture of the threat environment and will not be easy to defeat. China is expected to use DF-21D and DF-26 ASBM to engage USN ships in the Pacific. USN has conducted a large number of live-fire tests to develop the capability to intercept ASBMs. But USN will attempt to take out launchers of DF-21D and DF-26 as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **Ohio-class submarine(s) do not need to surface for a long period of time courtesy of the onboard power plant technology and can get close to a country without warning to do their bidding.
> 
> - - -
> 
> F-35 might be used to provide ISR to USN and engage PLAAF if it comes after USN in the Pacific.
> 
> F-35 is designed to deflect and absorb radar waves across a number of frequency bands ranging from L to V by virtue of its shaping and RAM application. These measures allow F-35 to reduce line-of-sight of various radar systems for it to maneuver through the threat environment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those radar systems which can detect F-35 such as Chinese YLC-8E might not be able to track it in real time for long -- F-35 is equipped with state-of-the-art broadband EW capabilities for good reason. Combat tactics is another factor -- F-35 offers unprecedented situational awareness to the pilot who in turn will not wait for the kill chain to establish and work against him but engage and destroy valuable targets at earliest opportunity. If this is not possible then F-35 can be used to illuminate YLC-8E among other radar systems on the surface for the USN to take out with a barrage of Tomahawks. The benefits of CEC are boundless. Radar systems on the surface are vulnerable to decapitating strikes but airborne platforms like E-2D can survive with air escort. You might have faith in A2/AD systems like HQ-9 but virtually nothing could stop a volley of Tomahawks from approaching desired targets in conflicts around the world and are kept up to date. Tomahawks have onboard EW capabilities, can be programmed to bypass threat zones, can be instructed to change course, and adopt terrain-hugging approach to reach desired targets. The window of opportunity to detect and intercept these cruise missiles is very small and a volley is virtually impossible to stop.
> 
> But PLAAF is in the air? Enter squadrons.
> 
> Imagine dozens of F-35 operating in a threat environment taking cues from each other as well as from other assets including E-2D and E3G. Imagine the effectiveness of this force.
> 
> For perspective:
> 
> A Blue Force composed of 8 jet fighters (F-35B = 4; Others = 4), was able to achieve a kill ratio of (20 - 1) against a RED Force composed of 20 jet fighters in a RED FLAG event scheduled in 2017. These F-35B were older Block 2B standard and pilots were coming to terms with its capabilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, J-10C, J-16, and J-20 are better than these. But F-35 is much more capable at Block 3F standard in comparison to Block 2B standard and E-2D can add a whole new dimension to its operations in a threat environment.
> 
> RED FLAG is also being revisited in its representation of threat environment(s) with new entrants and perceived complexities as pointed out in here, here, and here, and J-20 is being simulated as a part of the training regime for the Blue Force in the present.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-35 Stealth Fighters Are Revolutionizing The USAF's Aggressor Force
> 
> 
> We spoke to the boss of the 65th Aggressor Squadron, flying the F-35 — the Air Force’s latest red air incarnation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedrive.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see how advanced Aggressor Squadrons have become.
> 
> USAF and USN are training to fight PLAAF.
> 
> 
> 
> PL-15 is impressive but a pilot needs to obtain "weapons-grade lock" on the target to use it which will be very difficult to achieve in the BVR regime against an F-35 in view of the aforementioned.
> 
> F-35 will be able to obtain "weapons-grade lock" on every PLAAF jet fighter from a respectable distance with support of E-2D and to lesser extent E3G on the other hand in view of the aforementioned. AIM-120D is very capable in the BVR regime.
> 
> F-35 is very capable in the WVR regime as well due to its formidable EW capabilities and sensor fusion, and the pilot has the option to use both AIM-9X and AIM-120D to engage opposing aircraft in the WVR regime. AIM-120 class can deliver results in the WVR regime as well.
> 
> How many jet fighters PLAAF is willing to loose to engage and defeat each F-35 operating in a system of airborne assets? (20 - 1)? (15 - 1)? (10 - 1)? (5 - 1)? Get my drift?
> 
> - - -
> 
> Marketing items? Japanese data is credible. The AWACS in question might be Japanese E3 variant. RCS figure(s) of the jet fighters are corroborated with official revelations and relevant patents and valid for S band.
> 
> KJ-500 is equipped with a radar system having AESA TRMs which is great but are you privy to its algorithms, waveform technique, and peak transmit power? What I know is that it can detect up to 100 airborne targets and operates in the L-band. The radar system might be good enough to detect cruise missiles and possibly J-20 but... F-35 is VLO across bands ranging from L to V with formidable EW capabilities (see above). This is why I am of the view that KJ-500 itself will be struggling to detect and track F-35 in real time.
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of sources, Venezuela claimed to have detected and discouraged an F-22A operating nearby courtesy of the Chinese JY-27A radar system - a story that was used to create unrealistic hype of this radar system in here (hundreds fooled) but a realistic take on this radar system is in here. Americans didn't even bother to address this claim. You might have heard of Luneburg lens. You should request your contact to take you to RED FLAG - let me know your findings.
> 
> Quora posts might be trash on average but well-informed people are also active on the platform and provide valuable information from time-to-time. Valuable knowledge can be found anywhere including on PDF.
> 
> I understand that belief is not convincing, and prefer to work with Facts & Figures or with realistic approximations in case of lack of data. I had a debate with a Russian member about 5th generation fighters and I attempted to convince him with meaningful information that F-22A is much more stealthy than Su-57 but he was dismissive. Well-informed individuals and independent analysis proved me right. Maybe common sense comes to a person naturally - it is not common though.
> 
> I am mindful of Chinese advances and appreciate them in person. But I have some observations. China has benefited tremendously from Foreign investments in general, and from purchasing European technologies to develop Chinese tech base in particular, and with this dynamic comes the capacity to compete with US on many counts. Both UK and Germany are significant contributors to Chinese tech base on many counts. Some pointers for reference below.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09592296.2021.1883865
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Germany gave crucial submarines and destroyers tech to China right under the nose of the EU
> 
> 
> The bilateral trade between Germany and China reached $258 billion in 2020, and China enjoys a massive trade surplus of $20.24 billion over Germany.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tfiglobalnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Made in Germany, Co-opted by China
> 
> 
> Analysis, Monographs | October 14, 2020 |
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fdd.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ARM and SMIC Collaborate To Develop ARM Core-based Test Chip For China
> 
> 
> ARM and SMIC Collaborate To Develop ARM Core-based Test Chip For China
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.design-reuse.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK ministers quietly approve Chinese microchip factory takeover
> 
> 
> Nexperia, a Dutch subsidiary of the Chinese technology company Wingtech, engineered a takeover of Newport Wafer Fab last spring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.eu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But US is spooked and have resorted to export controls:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China's Access to Arm's Advanced Chip Designs Limited by U.S. Export Controls
> 
> 
> Chinese chip designers can't access high-performance CPU IP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tomshardware.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The export controls might tighten in time and China will be compelled to develop domestic solutions as noted in following link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CPC delegate Hu Weiwu: China has to make its own CPU and operating system
> 
> 
> A delegate to the 20th National Congress of the Communist Party of China (CPC) has called for more efforts towards developing self-reliant computer technologies.According to Hu, China's IT industry has been mainly built on two foreign technology platforms-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.cgtn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US is a bonafide tech powerhouse on the other hand. US will also attempt to cut off China from Western tech flows. China needs to reflect on this issue and adopt conciliatory tone with Western countries. China also needs to focus on developing on homegrown solutions.
> 
> But Chinese are becoming over-confident and looking down on American technologies and underestimating American technological advances.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Farewell And Adieu Fair Spanish Ladies' - Capt Quint from Jaws | Edge Studio
> 
> 
> Farewell and adieu to you, fair Spanish ladies. Farewell and adieu, you ladies of Spain For we’ve received orders for [...]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edgestudio.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 Block 70/72 is a significant leap from the older Block 50/52 on all counts:
> 
> _The most advanced version of the F-16, the Block 70/72 mounts the APG-83 active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar, a new electronic warfare suite called Viper Shield, a more powerful mission computer, an updated cockpit with larger color displays—including zoom and the ability to rearrange displayed information—an uprated engine, capability for most modern weapons, conformal overwing fuel tanks and an infrared search-and-track system and targeting pod capability, improved data links, precision GPS navigation, and an automatic ground collision avoidance system (GCAS), among other improvements. The Block 70/72 also has a structural service life of 12,000 hours, about 50 percent longer than previous F-16s, meaning the type could stay in service until 2060 or so._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First F-16 Block 70 Emerges From Lockheed Martin’s New Factory—128 More on Order | Air & Space Forces Magazine
> 
> 
> The first F-16 of the Block 70/72 configuration has rolled out of Lockheed Martin’s Greenville, S.C., facility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.airandspaceforces.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways, nice talking to you.


Great post with so much information for a layperson like myself to go through and be better informed.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## huanghong

LeGenD said:


> E-3 is a time-tested and battle-proven platform. The latest E3G variant (Block 40/45 standard) is equipped with technologies that are relevant for modern warfare needs. E3G was able to monitor, process, and facilitate activities in Syrian airspace where SyADF (Syrian), VKS (Russian), USAF (American), and USN (American) were active for relevant missions and neighboring countries such as Israel and Turkey would get involved intermittently with air arms for distinct pursuits, to avert accidents and make sure that American mission on the ground will succeed. E3G was also involved in incidents in which NATO aircraft engaged and shot down VKS aircraft in the region.
> 
> There is so much to a radar system then applying AESA TRMs on it and call it a day.
> 
> _A radar system can scan a search volume either by mechanically rotating the antenna or by using a phased-array antenna and performing electronic scanning. Imperfectly shaped antenna beams and the process of sweeping the beam across a search volume introduce additional losses to the system. Electronically steered phased arrays can impact the SNR due to beam broadening and a reduction in the effective aperture area of individual elements when steering off the radar boresight.
> 
> Prior to detection, the received radar echoes must pass through the radar signal-processing chain. The purpose of different components in the signal-processing chain is to guarantee the required probabilities of detection and false alarm, reject unwanted echoes from clutter, and account for non-Gaussian noise._
> 
> 
> 
> StackPath
> 
> 
> 
> The trick is in a well-tested combination of antenna design, waveform technique, peak transmit power, sophisticated algorithms, and information processing technologies, to effectively scan a search volume and improve line-of-sight irrespective of the approach used (purple highlights).
> 
> The AN/APY-2 radar system is OFFICIALLY stated to use High PRF pulse doppler waveform in S-band to search for and distinguish airborne targets from clutter returns. But it was found to contain ultra low sidelobe antennas at a closer look. Whoops.
> 
> The AN/APY-2 radar received RSIP treatment:
> 
> _"In order to counter today's increasing threat sophistication, the AWACS radar system has been significantly upgraded under the radar system improvement program (RISP). The RISP modifications enhance radar performance characteristics, add new capabilities, improve the user interface, and lower the life-cycle cost of the AWACS radar, while improving reliability." _- LOCKHEED MARTIN
> 
> Generic statement.
> 
> _"RSIP introduces advanced Pulse Doppler waveforms, pulse compression, and new processing algorithms implemented by hardware and software improvements that allow the system to detect and track targets at up to twice the range of original AWACS."_ - Lockheed Martin
> 
> More specific here.
> 
> I was able to read between the lines with homework - RSIP was aimed to transform AN/APY-2 into a multi-mode PESA radar system. HYBRID architecture was created since AN/APY-2 RSIP can scan the environment in several ways using Pulse Doppler, Non Pulse Doppler, and Combined approaches:
> 
> - Pulse Doppler Nonelevation Scan (PDNES)
> - Beyond-the-Horizon (BTH)
> - Interleaved
> - Pulse Doppler Elevation Scan (PDES)
> - Maritime
> - Passive
> 
> Related information in here.
> 
> RSIP provides the capability to detect up to 100 airborne targets having a small RCS in the face of Electronic Countermeasures employed by opposing forces. Target detection range was significantly increased as well. New computer systems were installed to process information by AN/APY-2 RSIP. One of these is the Surveillance Radar Computer (SRC) capable of performing over 24 billion operations per second.
> 
> Another addition is implementation of the AN/UPX-40 system:
> 
> _“The UPX-40 dramatically improves the detection of weak signals or maneuvering targets at maximum range and improves detection of targets at all ranges.” _- Nick Grudziecki
> 
> Yet another addition is implementation of DRAGON system:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 45 years of Boeing E-3 Sentry - a brief history of AWACS —
> 
> 
> 25th May 2021 marked exactly 45 years since the first flight of Boeing E-3 Sentry. And that makes a perfect occasion to tell the story of this iconic ‘guardian of the skies’. Origins of the [...]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> afterburner.com.pl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compare the above with original cockpit in here.
> 
> E-3G is a transformed platform by extension.
> 
> E-3G is unlikely to struggle with detecting and tracking J-10C from a respectable distance but it might struggle to detect and track J-20 from a respectable distance. Enter E-2D.
> 
> E-2D is equipped with superior AN/APY-9 radar system, and solves the problem of detecting and tracking all types of Chinese aerial assets from a respectable distance for USAF and USN. J-20 is designed to deflect and absorb radar waves across frequency bands ranging from S to Ku by virtue of its shaping and Chinese RAM application but less effective in either extremes and beyond; canards and all-moving vertical stabilizers are a significant source of specular reflection across a large area.
> 
> I was of the view that AN/APY-2 is obsolete until I learned about RSIP update. This system might not hold a candle to AN/APY-9 but it is up to the task for modern warfare needs as it proved itself in Syrian conflict situation where several countries were active for different reasons.
> 
> I am somewhat skeptical about your contact. He might be withholding information from you.
> 
> 
> 
> System point of view cut both ways, dear.
> 
> You need to be more specific about the battle scenario that you have in your mind. WHERE do you expect a battle with US to take place? What is the force composition of China in the relevant region? What is the objective of US in the relevant region?
> 
> Eastern Theater Command -- Taiwan, East China Sea
> Southern Theater Command -- South China Sea; Southeast Asia border security; territorial disputes
> Western Theater Command -- India, Central Asia, "counter-terrorism" in Xinjiang and Tibet
> Northern Theater Command -- Korean Peninsula, Russia border security
> Central Theater Command -- Capital defense; surge support to other theaters
> 
> Many Chinese do not understand how US might fight a war with a near-peer adversary and on what grounds. F-35 has limited capacity to ingress into Chinese mainland on its own. USAF will have to deploy air refueling tankers to support F-35 in this capacity. But US doesn't need to adopt this approach to take on Chinese defenses in the relevant region.
> 
> - - -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B-2A might be the aircraft of choice to ingress into Chinese mainland to take on Chinese defenses and infrastructure:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This comparison shows that just two B-2A are sufficient to produce "battlefield effects" that would take multiple aircraft to replicate otherwise. And there is no need to use air refueling tankers for B-2A.
> 
> - Costs are reduced.
> - Complexity is reduced.
> - Probability of suffering losses is reduced.
> 
> But US will not stress a single platform for a military operation inside China - Tomahawk Block 4 cruise missiles might be unleashed from ships* and submarines** to complement operations of B-2A to do the needful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Arleigh Burke class destroyers and Ticonderoga class cruisers are equipped with an assortment of well-developed munitions that can be used to intercept cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, UAVs, and aircraft. These ships can work together to create a common picture of the threat environment and will not be easy to defeat. China is expected to use DF-21D and DF-26 ASBM to engage USN ships in the Pacific. USN has conducted a large number of live-fire tests to develop the capability to intercept ASBMs. But USN will attempt to take out launchers of DF-21D and DF-26 as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **Ohio-class submarine(s) do not need to surface for a long period of time courtesy of the onboard power plant technology and can get close to a country without warning to do their bidding.
> 
> - - -
> 
> F-35 might be used to provide ISR to USN and engage PLAAF if it comes after USN in the Pacific.
> 
> F-35 is designed to deflect and absorb radar waves across a number of frequency bands ranging from L to V by virtue of its shaping and RAM application. These measures allow F-35 to reduce line-of-sight of various radar systems for it to maneuver through the threat environment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those radar systems which can detect F-35 such as Chinese YLC-8E might not be able to track it in real time for long -- F-35 is equipped with state-of-the-art broadband EW capabilities for good reason. Combat tactics is another factor -- F-35 offers unprecedented situational awareness to the pilot who in turn will not wait for the kill chain to establish and work against him but engage and destroy valuable targets at earliest opportunity. If this is not possible then F-35 can be used to illuminate YLC-8E among other radar systems on the surface for the USN to take out with a barrage of Tomahawks. The benefits of CEC are boundless. Radar systems on the surface are vulnerable to decapitating strikes but airborne platforms like E-2D can survive with air escort. You might have faith in A2/AD systems like HQ-9 but virtually nothing could stop a volley of Tomahawks from approaching desired targets in conflicts around the world and are kept up to date. Tomahawks have onboard EW capabilities, can be programmed to bypass threat zones, can be instructed to change course, and adopt terrain-hugging approach to reach desired targets. The window of opportunity to detect and intercept these cruise missiles is very small and a volley is virtually impossible to stop.
> 
> But PLAAF is in the air? Enter squadrons.
> 
> Imagine dozens of F-35 operating in a threat environment taking cues from each other as well as from other assets including E-2D and E3G. Imagine the effectiveness of this force.
> 
> For perspective:
> 
> A Blue Force composed of 8 jet fighters (F-35B = 4; Others = 4), was able to achieve a kill ratio of (20 - 1) against a RED Force composed of 20 jet fighters in a RED FLAG event scheduled in 2017. These F-35B were older Block 2B standard and pilots were coming to terms with its capabilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, J-10C, J-16, and J-20 are better than these. But F-35 is much more capable at Block 3F standard in comparison to Block 2B standard and E-2D can add a whole new dimension to its operations in a threat environment.
> 
> RED FLAG is also being revisited in its representation of threat environment(s) with new entrants and perceived complexities as pointed out in here, here, and here, and J-20 is being simulated as a part of the training regime for the Blue Force in the present.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-35 Stealth Fighters Are Revolutionizing The USAF's Aggressor Force
> 
> 
> We spoke to the boss of the 65th Aggressor Squadron, flying the F-35 — the Air Force’s latest red air incarnation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedrive.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see how advanced Aggressor Squadrons have become.
> 
> USAF and USN are training to fight PLAAF.
> 
> 
> 
> PL-15 is impressive but a pilot needs to obtain "weapons-grade lock" on the target to use it which will be very difficult to achieve in the BVR regime against an F-35 in view of the aforementioned.
> 
> F-35 will be able to obtain "weapons-grade lock" on every PLAAF jet fighter from a respectable distance with support of E-2D and to lesser extent E3G on the other hand in view of the aforementioned. AIM-120D is very capable in the BVR regime.
> 
> F-35 is very capable in the WVR regime as well due to its formidable EW capabilities and sensor fusion, and the pilot has the option to use both AIM-9X and AIM-120D to engage opposing aircraft in the WVR regime. AIM-120 class can deliver results in the WVR regime as well.
> 
> How many jet fighters PLAAF is willing to loose to engage and defeat each F-35 operating in a system of airborne assets? (20 - 1)? (15 - 1)? (10 - 1)? (5 - 1)? Get my drift?
> 
> - - -
> 
> Marketing items? Japanese data is credible. The AWACS in question might be Japanese E3 variant. RCS figure(s) of the jet fighters are corroborated with official revelations and relevant patents and valid for S-band.
> 
> KJ-500 is equipped with a radar system having AESA TRMs which is great but are you privy to its algorithms, waveform technique, and peak transmit power? What I know is that it can detect up to 100 airborne targets and operates in the L-band. The radar system might be good enough to detect cruise missiles and possibly J-20 but... F-35 is VLO across bands ranging from L to V with formidable EW capabilities (see above). This is why I am of the view that KJ-500 itself will be struggling to detect and track F-35 in real time.
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of sources, Venezuela claimed to have detected and discouraged an F-22A operating nearby courtesy of the Chinese JY-27A radar system - a story that was used to create unrealistic hype of this radar system in here (hundreds fooled) but a realistic take on this radar system is in here. Americans didn't even bother to address this claim. You might have heard of Luneburg lens. You should request your contact to take you to RED FLAG - let me know your findings.
> 
> Quora posts might be trash on average but well-informed people are also active on the platform and provide valuable information from time-to-time. Valuable knowledge can be found anywhere including on PDF.
> 
> I understand that belief is not convincing, and prefer to work with Facts & Figures or with realistic approximations in case of lack of data. I had a debate with a Russian member about 5th generation fighters and I attempted to convince him with meaningful information that F-22A is much more stealthy than Su-57 but he was dismissive. Well-informed individuals and independent analysis proved me right. Maybe common sense comes to a person naturally - it is not common though.
> 
> I am mindful of Chinese advances and appreciate them in person. But I have some observations. China has benefited tremendously from Foreign investments in general, and from purchasing European technologies to develop Chinese tech base in particular, and with this dynamic comes the capacity to compete with US on many counts. Both UK and Germany are significant contributors to Chinese tech base on many counts. Some pointers for reference below.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09592296.2021.1883865
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Germany gave crucial submarines and destroyers tech to China right under the nose of the EU
> 
> 
> The bilateral trade between Germany and China reached $258 billion in 2020, and China enjoys a massive trade surplus of $20.24 billion over Germany.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tfiglobalnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Made in Germany, Co-opted by China
> 
> 
> Analysis, Monographs | October 14, 2020 |
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fdd.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ARM and SMIC Collaborate To Develop ARM Core-based Test Chip For China
> 
> 
> ARM and SMIC Collaborate To Develop ARM Core-based Test Chip For China
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.design-reuse.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK ministers quietly approve Chinese microchip factory takeover
> 
> 
> Nexperia, a Dutch subsidiary of the Chinese technology company Wingtech, engineered a takeover of Newport Wafer Fab last spring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.politico.eu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But US is spooked and have resorted to export controls:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China's Access to Arm's Advanced Chip Designs Limited by U.S. Export Controls
> 
> 
> Chinese chip designers can't access high-performance CPU IP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.tomshardware.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The export controls might tighten in time and China will be compelled to develop domestic solutions as noted in following link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CPC delegate Hu Weiwu: China has to make its own CPU and operating system
> 
> 
> A delegate to the 20th National Congress of the Communist Party of China (CPC) has called for more efforts towards developing self-reliant computer technologies.According to Hu, China's IT industry has been mainly built on two foreign technology platforms-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.cgtn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US is a bonafide tech powerhouse on the other hand. US will also attempt to cut off China from Western tech flows. China needs to reflect on this issue and adopt conciliatory tone with Western countries. China also needs to focus on developing on homegrown solutions.
> 
> But Chinese are becoming over-confident and looking down on American technologies and underestimating American technological advances. This is bad judgement. One should not grow complacent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Farewell And Adieu Fair Spanish Ladies' - Capt Quint from Jaws | Edge Studio
> 
> 
> Farewell and adieu to you, fair Spanish ladies. Farewell and adieu, you ladies of Spain For we’ve received orders for [...]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edgestudio.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 Block 70/72 is a significant leap from the older Block 50/52 on all counts:
> 
> _The most advanced version of the F-16, the Block 70/72 mounts the APG-83 active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar, a new electronic warfare suite called Viper Shield, a more powerful mission computer, an updated cockpit with larger color displays—including zoom and the ability to rearrange displayed information—an uprated engine, capability for most modern weapons, conformal overwing fuel tanks and an infrared search-and-track system and targeting pod capability, improved data links, precision GPS navigation, and an automatic ground collision avoidance system (GCAS), among other improvements. The Block 70/72 also has a structural service life of 12,000 hours, about 50 percent longer than previous F-16s, meaning the type could stay in service until 2060 or so._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First F-16 Block 70 Emerges From Lockheed Martin’s New Factory—128 More on Order | Air & Space Forces Magazine
> 
> 
> The first F-16 of the Block 70/72 configuration has rolled out of Lockheed Martin’s Greenville, S.C., facility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.airandspaceforces.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways, nice talking to you.


According to the statement of the general of the US Air Force, the E-3 is not enough to find the j-20 in time.
It's odd to me that, like the F-35, the J-20 hangs the same Luneburg lens while on the mission.
Is the j-20 still such a difficult target for the E-3 after hanging the Luneburg lens? If so, then the e-3's systems are clearly not very capable even after the upgrade.








E-3 insufficient for timely detection of J-20: Pacific Air Forces chief


US Air Force (USAF) General Kenneth Wilsbach says that the Boeing E-3 Sentry AWACS fleet is suffering significant obsolescence issues, and that the Boeing F-15EX is ideally suited to conflict in North Asia.




www.flightglobal.com


----------



## LeGenD

huanghong said:


> According to the statement of the general of the US Air Force, the E-3 is not enough to find the j-20 in time.
> It's odd to me that, like the F-35, the J-20 hangs the same Luneburg lens while on the mission.
> Is the j-20 still such a difficult target for the E-3 after hanging the Luneburg lens? If so, then the e-3's systems are clearly not very capable even after the upgrade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E-3 insufficient for timely detection of J-20: Pacific Air Forces chief
> 
> 
> US Air Force (USAF) General Kenneth Wilsbach says that the Boeing E-3 Sentry AWACS fleet is suffering significant obsolescence issues, and that the Boeing F-15EX is ideally suited to conflict in North Asia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.flightglobal.com



Thanks for the pointer. I am aware of this link and used it in my post. He seems to be speaking in hypothetical terms.

E-3G will easily track J-20 equipped with Luneburg lens from far away:

_"RSIP allow detection of targets about 10 times smaller than non-RSIP AWACS radars, including cruise missiles. Range Resolution improve by 6 times, with a 70 - 100 % increase in Detection Range, and much better Range, Altitude and Azimuth accuracy. RSIP radars are able to see targets with a 0.5 m radar cross section at 300 n.mi. or more. The modification include a new Pulse-compressed waveform, two new adaptive signature processors, and better electronic countermeasures proofing."_



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293774906_Airborne_early_warning_acquires_new_targets



But AN/APY-2 RSIP operates in the S-band frequency and J-20 will be difficult to detect and track in real time in this band from far away when operating without Luneburg lens in wartime situation. This makes sense when WE take a closer look at J-20 shaping coupled with Chinese advances in developing RAM application for it, and onboard EW capabilities.

J-20 is a formidable jet fighter in its latest form. It will be able to deliver results in neighboring threat environments. It posit a significant threat to some of the assets of USAF and USN as well. Credit where due.

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## m52k85

LeGenD said:


> Thanks for the pointer. I am aware of this link and used it in my post. He seems to be speaking in hypothetical terms.
> 
> E-3G will easily track J-20 equipped with Luneburg lens from far away:
> 
> _"RSIP allow detection of targets about 10 times smaller than non-RSIP AWACS radars, including cruise missiles. Range Resolution improve by 6 times, with a 70 - 100 % increase in Detection Range, and much better Range, Altitude and Azimuth accuracy. RSIP radars are able to see targets with a 0.5 m radar cross section at 300 n.mi. or more. The modification include a new Pulse-compressed waveform, two new adaptive signature processors, and better electronic countermeasures proofing."_
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293774906_Airborne_early_warning_acquires_new_targets
> 
> 
> 
> But AN/APY-2 RSIP operates in the S-band frequency and J-20 will be difficult to detect and track in real time in this band from far away when operating without Luneburg lens in wartime situation. This makes sense when WE take a closer look at J-20 shaping coupled with Chinese advances in developing RAM application for it, and onboard EW capabilities.
> 
> J-20 is a formidable jet fighter in its latest form. It will be able to deliver results in neighboring threat environments. It posit a significant threat to some of the assets of USAF and USN as well. Credit where due.


Mr Legend very nice posts these days. I have returned to pdf after a while, I dont recall you were a technical poster. But nice never the less.

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## GriffinsRule

We have seen pictures of the following J-10s in the air superiority two-tone gray scheme or the French styled Gray-Green camo so far. I am guessing all first 12 are in grey while the next 12 are in the Mirage scheme.
Will need more pictures to be certain but this makes sense to me so far. Have we seen any of the missing birds so far?

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## Kompromat

Absolutely hate this camouflage.

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## NooriNuth

syed_yusuf said:


> with EOTS, it is integrated to j10c


I guess EOTS is via the add on pod?
That's why the chin hard point for a Pod?


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## luciferdd

Is the pic true or not?


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## Deino

Actually I highly question this even if from an official PAF brochure.






32,000lbs ??? If I’m not mistaken this would be 142.34 kN, which is IMO impossible, since this is the thrust rating often given for the J-20‘s WS-10C but not for the WS-10B.

As such and since we have seen so many official brochures including wrong data and since this contradicts the official one from AVIC/CAC I’m not sure if simply one from the PAF staff googled a bit and used this. For the WS-10B this thrust is not even given for the J-16 but always something around 136-138 kN.

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## Reichmarshal

We should stay level headed n well clear of these bull sh!t slogans like "game changer" n not over hype things like the Indians n in the process face great embarrassment n heart ache when the outcome is diff from expectations.

The world is moving towards 6th gen ac n by the time we have fully inducted j10 a 4th gen ac, the first prototypes of the 6th gen. should be carrying out their maiden flights.
So let's not go indias way

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## tphuang

Deino said:


> Actually I highly question this even if from an official PAF brochure.
> 
> View attachment 908297
> 
> 
> 32,000lbs ??? If I’m not mistaken this would be 142.34 kN, which is IMO impossible, since this is the thrust rating often given for the J-20‘s WS-10C but not for the WS-10B.
> 
> As such and since we have seen so many official brochures including wrong data and since this contradicts the official one from AVIC/CAC I’m not sure if simply one from the PAF staff googled a bit and used this. For the WS-10B this thrust is not even given for the J-16 but always something around 136-138 kN.


this is confirms by Patch.

Deino, you have to stop underestimating Chinese engines. The reason why they have been so slow with WS-15 is because WS-10C has already reached the original designed specs for WS-15.


----------



## Deino

tphuang said:


> this is confirms by Patch.
> 
> Deino, you have to stop underestimating Chinese engines. The reason why they have been so slow with WS-15 is because WS-10C has already reached the original designed specs for WS-15.




Well, I think it is not underestimating them, but putting them within a realistic frame.

But I wonÄt complain if I am wrong.

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## tphuang

LeGenD said:


> E-3 is a time-tested and battle-proven platform. The latest E3G variant (Block 40/45 standard) is equipped with technologies that are relevant for modern warfare needs. E3G was able to monitor, process, and facilitate activities in Syrian airspace where SyADF (Syrian), VKS (Russian), USAF (American), and USN (American) were active for relevant missions and neighboring countries such as Israel and Turkey would get involved intermittently with air arms for distinct pursuits, to avert accidents and make sure that American mission on the ground will succeed. E3G was also involved in incidents in which NATO aircraft engaged and shot down VKS aircraft in the region.


time-tested and battle proven = OLD

E-3 can't detect J-20s adequately. This is from Pacific Air Force chief. What more do you need to know?








E-3 insufficient for timely detection of J-20: Pacific Air Forces chief


US Air Force (USAF) General Kenneth Wilsbach says that the Boeing E-3 Sentry AWACS fleet is suffering significant obsolescence issues, and that the Boeing F-15EX is ideally suited to conflict in North Asia.




www.flightglobal.com





USAF is retiring half of its E-3s before there is even a replacement. What does that tell you? It's too OLD.








Air Force to Retire Half Its AWACS Fleet, Most JSTARS, Leaving ‘Small Gap’ in ISR | Air & Space Forces Magazine


The Air Force plans to retire half of its E-3 AWACS fleet and most E-8C JSTARS, leaving a “small gap” in ISR.




www.airandspaceforces.com







LeGenD said:


> E-3G is unlikely to struggle with detecting and tracking J-10C from a respectable distance but it might struggle to detect and track J-20 from a respectable distance. Enter E-2D.
> 
> E-2D is equipped with superior AN/APY-9 radar system, and solves the problem of detecting and tracking all types of Chinese aerial assets from a respectable distance for USAF and USN. J-20 is designed to deflect and absorb radar waves across frequency bands ranging from S to Ku by virtue of its shaping and Chinese RAM application but less effective in either extremes and beyond; canards and all-moving vertical stabilizers are a significant source of specular reflection across a large area.


Yes, E-2D can do the work of detecting modern aircraft.

Don't underestimate J-10C. According to my contact, it's borderline LO in PLAAF service. But keep in mind, PLAAF has a wide fleet of EW aircraft that can mess with adversary radar system. And in PLAAF, J-10C can more effectively limit emissions because it can rely on other platform to do sensor fusion and pass it the targeting data. It can be guided by AWACs. But if PAF gets similar aerial assets from China, it can make J-10C a lot harder to detect.


LeGenD said:


> Many Chinese do not understand how US might fight a war with a near-peer adversary and on what grounds. F-35 has limited capacity to ingress into Chinese mainland on its own. USAF will have to deploy air refueling tankers to support F-35 in this capacity. But US doesn't need to adopt this approach to take on Chinese defenses in the relevant region.


absolutely not. F-35 can be detected very easily within first island chain. According to both Chinese sources and verified by my contact. This is entirely off topic, but USAF isn't going to be able to deploy F-35As or tankers. All the surrounding air bases will get destroyed in the event of a westpac conflict. The recent DoD alluded this as much. Everything inside of Guam will be lost in the opening hours.


LeGenD said:


> B-2A might be the aircraft of choice to ingress into Chinese mainland to take on Chinese defenses and infrastructure:


Not even close to happening. That's why B-21 is needed. B-2 is 30 years old and in limited numbers. And very hard to maintain and have low availability.



LeGenD said:


> But US will not stress a single platform for a military operation inside China - Tomahawk Block 4 cruise missiles might be unleashed from ships* and submarines** to complement operations of B-2A to do the needful.


lol, you are talking about the most well defended air space in the world. A few hundred missiles aren't going to do much. Especially something that can as easily intercepted as subsonic cruise missiles. Even in operation desert storm, half of the tomahawk missiles were intercepted.

Why don't you take a look at how many ships USN has in 7th fleet and how many are in the port at any given time and how many tomahawk missiles they can hold (not how many VLS cells, but how tomahawk missiles they can actually hold). Hint: not every MK-41 cells can hold a tomahawk missile on Burke class ship. Due to age and excessive usage, USN ships have to spend a long time in port.

And then why don't you take a look at how many CRUDES China has right now and how many of them are new and have high availability.


LeGenD said:


> *Arleigh Burke class destroyers and Ticonderoga class cruisers are equipped with an assortment of well-developed munitions that can be used to intercept cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, UAVs, and aircraft. These ships can work together to create a common picture of the threat environment and will not be easy to defeat. China is expected to use DF-21D and DF-26 ASBM to engage USN ships in the Pacific. USN has conducted a large number of live-fire tests to develop the capability to intercept ASBMs. But USN will attempt to take out launchers of DF-21D and DF-26 as well.


You do realize hypersonic missiles are a lot harder to intercept than subsonic missiles, right? any this YouTube clip is out of date. The most threatening missile facing USN right now is DF-17, which uses HGV, so it is actually a lot hard to detect and intercept than DF-21D. DF-21D is almost 10 years old. It's irrelevant to a future conflict.


LeGenD said:


> **Ohio-class submarine(s) do not need to surface for a long period of time courtesy of the onboard power plant technology and can get close to a country without warning to do their bidding.


you need to stop watching YouTube clips and get into reality. Ohio class according to my nuclear sub contacts are constantly breaking down because they are so old.



LeGenD said:


> F-35 might be used to provide ISR to USN and engage PLAAF if it comes after USN in the Pacific.
> 
> F-35 is designed to deflect and absorb radar waves across a number of frequency bands ranging from L to V by virtue of its shaping and RAM application. These measures allow F-35 to reduce line-of-sight of various radar systems for it to maneuver through the threat environment.
> 
> Those radar systems which can detect F-35 such as Chinese YLC-8E might not be able to track it in real time for long -- F-35 is equipped with state-of-the-art broadband EW capabilities for good reason. Combat tactics is another factor -- F-35 offers unprecedented situational awareness to the pilot who in turn will not wait for the kill chain to establish and work against him but engage and destroy valuable targets at earliest opportunity. If this is not possible then F-35 can be used to illuminate YLC-8E among other radar systems on the surface for the USN to take out with a barrage of Tomahawks. The benefits of CEC are boundless. Radar systems on the surface are vulnerable to decapitating strikes but airborne platforms like E-2D can survive with air escort. You might have faith in A2/AD systems like HQ-9 but virtually nothing could stop a volley of Tomahawks from approaching desired targets in conflicts around the world and these cruise missiles are kept up to date. Tomahawks have onboard EW capabilities, can be programmed to bypass threat zones, can be instructed to change course, and adopt terrain-hugging approach to reach desired targets. The window of opportunity to detect and intercept these cruise missiles is very small and a volley is virtually impossible to stop.
> 
> But PLAAF is in the air? Enter squadrons.
> 
> Imagine dozens of F-35 operating in a threat environment taking cues from each other as well as from other assets including E-2D and E3G. Imagine the effectiveness of this force.
> 
> For perspective:
> 
> A Blue Force composed of 8 jet fighters (F-35B = 4; Others = 4), was able to achieve a kill ratio of (20 - 1) against a RED Force composed of 20 jet fighters in a RED FLAG event scheduled in 2017. These F-35B were older Block 2B standard and pilots were coming to terms with its capabilities.


Seems like you've spent too much time reading US military propaganda. CEC is nothing new. China has that and sensor fusion. If you don't have these things, it's not fifth generation. J-20s have them. Even J-10Cs might have them (can't remember for sure). I'm not sure why you are constantly downgrading J-10C capabilities.

Detecting and then locking onto F-35s is not that difficult for PLA. KJ-500s are locking onto F-35s constantly. That's why you see Wilsbach talking about how they want to break the PLAAF kill chain where KJ-500s can guide long range AAMs to USAF aircraft.

Keep in mind that USAF considers J-20's frontal stealth to be comparable to earlier blocks of F-35As. That's why the aggressor squad for J-20 uses earlier F-35As. In comparison, USAF uses F-16s to simulate Su-57.



LeGenD said:


> To be fair, J-10C, J-16, and J-20 are better than these. But F-35 is much more capable at Block 3F standard in comparison to Block 2B standard and E-2D can add a whole new dimension to its operations in a threat environment.
> 
> RED FLAG is also being revisited in its representation of threat environment(s) with new entrants and perceived complexities as pointed out in here, here, and here, and J-20 is being simulated as a part of the training regime for the Blue Force in the present.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-35 Stealth Fighters Are Revolutionizing The USAF's Aggressor Force
> 
> 
> We spoke to the boss of the 65th Aggressor Squadron, flying the F-35 — the Air Force’s latest red air incarnation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thedrive.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see how advanced Aggressor Squadrons have become.
> 
> USAF and USN are training to fight PLAAF.


you really need to read more than just what US military is doing. Seriously.



LeGenD said:


> PL-15 is impressive but a pilot needs to obtain "weapons-grade lock" on the target to use it which will be very difficult to achieve in the BVR regime against an F-35 in view of the aforementioned.


The point is that PL-15 has large AESA seeker, so it can be a fire and forget weapon. The threshold for weapon grade locking aren't as high as something using an older mechanical seeker like every other AAMs out there.

It's again amazing to me here that Pakistani fans aren't appreciating what a great AAM you just got.



LeGenD said:


> F-35 will be able to obtain "weapons-grade lock" on every PLAAF jet fighter from a respectable distance with support of E-2D and to lesser extent E3G on the other hand in view of the aforementioned. AIM-120D is very capable in the BVR regime.
> 
> F-35 is very capable in the WVR regime as well due to its formidable EW capabilities and sensor fusion, and the pilot has the option to use both AIM-9X and AIM-120D to engage opposing aircraft in the WVR regime. AIM-120 class can deliver results in the WVR regime as well.
> 
> How many jet fighters PLAAF is willing to loose to engage and defeat each F-35 operating in a system of airborne assets? (20 - 1)? (15 - 1)? (10 - 1)? (5 - 1)? Get my drift?


Again, you spent too much time with this decade long Lockheed propaganda. F-35 is a great aircraft, but what is has right now is nothing special compared to J-20. I'm not sure why you are wasting this much breaths on F-35 on a J-10 thread.


LeGenD said:


> - - -
> 
> Marketing items? Japanese data is credible. The AWACS in question might be Japanese E3 variant. RCS figure(s) of the jet fighters are corroborated with official revelations and relevant patents and valid for S-band.
> 
> KJ-500 is equipped with a radar system having AESA TRMs which is great but are you privy to its algorithms, waveform technique, and peak transmit power? What I know is that it can detect up to 100 airborne targets and operates in the L-band. The radar system might be good enough to detect cruise missiles and possibly J-20 but... F-35 is VLO across bands ranging from L to V with formidable EW capabilities (see above). This is why I am of the view that KJ-500 itself will be struggling to detect and track F-35 in real time.


It really isn't. J-20 and F-35 radar signature from the front is quite comparable once you get to S band or lower. Again, USAF uses a F-35 to simulate J-20 and it uses F-16 to simulate Su-57.



LeGenD said:


> Speaking of sources, Venezuela claimed to have detected and discouraged an F-22A operating nearby courtesy of the Chinese JY-27A radar system - a story that was used to create unrealistic hype of this radar system in here (hundreds fooled) but a realistic take on this radar system is in here. Americans didn't even bother to address this claim. You might have heard of Luneburg lens. You should request your contact to take you to RED FLAG - let me know your findings.


JY27A is a very old export radar.

People that are actually working with US military and have up to date classified information are all taking J-20, KJ-500 and UHF/VHF radar very seriously. And they are investing serious money into NGAD and B-21 in order to penetrate Chinese air space, because the current generation of aircraft cannot do so.

Frankly, my initial post was to explain to people here that J-10C and PL-15 are very capable platforms for PAF to use. PAF is clearly happy with what they got.

Somehow, you got triggered. It's not my problem that the thought of US military losing badly in a westpac conflict is so shocking to you. But these Chinese weapons are very capable and it's your loss for not understanding that.

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## Deino

tphuang said:


> this is confirms by Patch.
> 
> Deino, you have to stop underestimating Chinese engines. The reason why they have been so slow with WS-15 is because WS-10C has already reached the original designed specs for WS-15.



PS:* I need to apologise*  ... I opened indeed an old file but after checking the latest info I compiled to the new Flanker book I have the following likely / estimated performances:

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## FuturePAF

Deino said:


> PS:* I need to apologise*  ... I opened indeed an old file but after checking the latest info I compiled to the new Flanker book I have the following likely / estimated performances:
> 
> View attachment 908316


Do you believe the following video is a credible reference to corroborate the claim?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1608480997099831296


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## Talon

@Windjammer

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## Windjammer

Talon said:


> View attachment 908385
> 
> 
> @Windjammer


Thank you for that sir. 
Albeit, I was going to post this last week but needed further confirmation first.

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## LKJ86

FuturePAF said:


> Do you believe the following video is a credible reference to corroborate the claim?
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1608480997099831296


It was from PLAAF's official Weibo account about 4 years ago.

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## vi-va

FuturePAF said:


> Do you believe the following video is a credible reference to corroborate the claim?
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1608480997099831296


No, I don't think so.


----------



## FuturePAF

vi-va said:


> No, I don't think so.


@LKJ86 says it was from the PLAAF’s official weibo account. That’s as official as it gets, is it not?


----------



## LKJ86

FuturePAF said:


> @LKJ86 says it was from the PLAAF’s official weibo account. That’s as official as it gets, is it not?


1. Believe what you believe.
2. Try to achieve mutual agreement.

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## vi-va

FuturePAF said:


> @LKJ86 says it was from the PLAAF’s official weibo account. That’s as official as it gets, is it not?


I don't know. The video in the link is not PLAAF, it's just an ordinary TV program.
Maybe @LKJ86 has the original PLAAF video link.

The number in the video dry thrust 90kn, wet thrust 144kn may be right. But I would NOT say an ordinary city TV program are reliable source,







*



*




Deino said:


> PS:* I need to apologise*  ... I opened indeed an old file but after checking the latest info I compiled to the new Flanker book I have the following likely / estimated performances:
> 
> View attachment 908316

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## LKJ86

vi-va said:


> Maybe @LKJ86 has the original PLAAF video link.


The video was indeed from PLAAF's official Weibo account, but made by SHENZHEN SATELLITE TV.

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## vi-va

LKJ86 said:


> The video was indeed from PLAAF's official Weibo account, but made by SHENZHEN SATELLITE TV.
> 
> View attachment 908447


I see. I don't see it as a reliable source.
PLAAF doesn't need to be held accountable for the west/dry thrust published by a video of SHENZHEN SATELLITE TV.
It's just a weibo account, not a serious publication.

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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

,.,.,.

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## Deino

Was this already posted?

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## Bleek

I like the plain standard camouflage much better. The other makes it seem like a cheap cardboard box.

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## That Guy

Horus said:


> Absolutely hate this camouflage.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## GriffinsRule

Bleek said:


> I like the plain standard camouflage much better. The other makes it seem like a cheap cardboard box.


I really like the camo but wish they had gone with a scheme similar to the Japanese F-2 for maritime ops


----------



## LeGenD

tphuang said:


> time-tested and battle proven = OLD
> 
> E-3 can't detect J-20s adequately. This is from Pacific Air Force chief. What more do you need to know?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E-3 insufficient for timely detection of J-20: Pacific Air Forces chief
> 
> 
> US Air Force (USAF) General Kenneth Wilsbach says that the Boeing E-3 Sentry AWACS fleet is suffering significant obsolescence issues, and that the Boeing F-15EX is ideally suited to conflict in North Asia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.flightglobal.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> USAF is retiring half of its E-3s before there is even a replacement. What does that tell you? It's too OLD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Air Force to Retire Half Its AWACS Fleet, Most JSTARS, Leaving ‘Small Gap’ in ISR | Air & Space Forces Magazine
> 
> 
> The Air Force plans to retire half of its E-3 AWACS fleet and most E-8C JSTARS, leaving a “small gap” in ISR.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.airandspaceforces.com



E-3G proving itself in the recent Syrian conflict:









Boeing E-3G makes Middle East combat debut


The US Air Force has sent its newly upgraded E-3G Sentry into harm's way for the first time on a deployment to Southwest Asia, where it will presumably be supporting the increasingly cluttered air campaign against Islamic State militants in Iraq and Syria.




www.flightglobal.com













Eye in the sky: U.S. and allies have near-total view of Syria’s aerial battlefield


The missions monitor anti-ISIS coalition aircraft in the eastern part of the country, as well as Russian activity in the west.




www.nbcnews.com













AWACS: NATO’s 'eyes in the sky'


NATO operates a fleet of Boeing E-3A Airborne Warning & Control System (AWACS) aircraft, with their distinctive radar domes mounted on the fuselage, which provide the Alliance with air surveillance, command and control, battle space management and communications. NATO Air Base (NAB)...




www.nato.int





- is OLD ??? 

It looks like you missed some of the links embedded in my statements in my previous post. I am fully aware of your TOP LINK because I felt that you are confusing J-10C with J-20 when you originally claimed that E3G is having difficulty tracking J-10C from unspecified distance(s) which is unlikely:

_"RSIP allow detection of targets about 10 times smaller than non-RSIP AWACS radars, including cruise missiles. Range Resolution improve by 6 times, with a 70 - 100 % increase in Detection Range, and much better Range, Altitude and Azimuth accuracy. RSIP radars are able to see targets with a 0.5 m radar cross section at 300 n.mi. or more. The modification include a new Pulse-compressed waveform, two new adaptive signature processors, and better electronic countermeasures proofing."_

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293774906_Airborne_early_warning_acquires_new_targets

+

_In 1987, the E-3 was upgraded to its current configuration, the Block 30/35 modification on its E-3B/C model. In this modification, the AN/APY-1/2 radar system went through a Radar System Improvement Program. This program was a joint venture between the United States and NATO. The RSIP improves the AN/APY-1/2 radar detection capability against targets with smaller radar cross section such as cruise missiles and low observable aircraft. The power for the radar is provided by electric generators mounted on each of the E-3s Pratt and Whitney’s TF33 engines *produced a combined output of approximately one megawatt of power.* The E-3 also gained a passive electronic support measure system (ESMS) the AN/AYR-2 or also known as the 8 passive detection system (PDS). The PDS system allows a specialist onboard the E-3 to “associate any electromagnetic emission to a specific threat system.” This system allows controllers onboard the E-3 to provide situational awareness of any possible threat surface-to-air missile systems or threat aircraft thus allowing friendly aircraft to determine strike routes and tactics to address those threats. Another key upgrade to the AWACS in this block upgrade is the installation of a Joint Tactical Distribution System (JTIDS) terminal. The installation of this terminal provides the E-3 a “jam-resistant digital communication of data and voice for command and control, navigation, relative positioning, and identification.” In 2003, the E-3 underwent a massive upgrade. The E-3G or Block 40/45 upgrade, is the first significant overhaul of the AWACS platform since its development in the late 1960s. This upgrade replaces the 1970’s based computer system with the latest commercial off the shelf computer systems in which according to Col David Gaedecke, a former commander of the 552nd Air Control Wing, would provide the AWACS community capabilities that are much more advanced the older model Block 30/35._









The Future of AWACS: Technological Advancement or Technological Relic


The United States maintains one of the worlds most successful Command and Control C2 platform in the E-3 AWACS aircraft. The E-3 fleet, however, is aging rapidly and with rising operational costs and no source of sustainable replacement parts. The principal purpose of this research was to...



apps.dtic.mil





E-3G is very capable platform on the whole:

_For a start, the E-3G brings a mission crew of between 13 and 19 people, and an almost unequalled multi-band communications suite to the area of operations. The mission crew receive a huge amount of information from not only the E-3G’s primary AN/APY-1/2 radar but also via satellite communications (SatComms), VHF and UHF radios, Link 16 and a range of other communications and datalink systems. This, coupled with their training as dedicated airspace battle-managers and fighter-controllers allows them to generate high levels of situational awareness. This situational awareness, and their capacity as a large mission crew, is what enables the US Air Force to coordinate in real time the extremely complex multinational air operations which the US and other NATO countries sometimes take for granted, but which most other countries struggle to conduct. The E-3 also typically acts as the Link 16 management function during complex operations, coordinating which data is pushed where and which users can send to others._









US Air Force Request for Funds to Buy E-7 Should Prompt a Rethink on RAF Fleet Size


As the US Air Force looks to the E-7 Wedgetail as its next AWACS, the RAF needs to increase its own order to generate a viable long-term fleet.




rusi.org





Do you expect K. S. Wilsbach to be sincere with you? This man could be spreading disinformation on purpose.

But American E-3G are based on OLD AIRFRAMES:

_But the Air Force’s 31 E-3s are 43 years old on average, and keeping them maintained has become more and more challenging, prompting one top general to push for a replacement as soon as possible.

The Air Force’s statistics on mission-capable rates show the increasing difficulty in keeping the AWACS in the air. The E-3G’s mission-capable rates plunged 10 percentage points last year from 70.7% in 2020 to 60.7% in 2021. The E-3B similarly slumped from 65.8% to 55.8% during that same period._









Air Force eyes contract for AWACS replacement in 2023


The Air Force wants to know how a potential contractor would provide at least two prototype replacements for the AWACS by 2028.




www.defensenews.com





This is why US feels the need to replace E-3G with E-7G in coming years.



tphuang said:


> Yes, E-2D can do the work of detecting modern aircraft.



WE agree on something. 

The onboard AN/APY-9 provides hybrid mechanical and electronically scanning in UHF-Band. This radar system mechanically rotates to cover a full circle around the aircraft but when it spots something of interest, it can stop and stare, concentrating power for a better image without waiting for the sweep of a purely mechanical array. By locking the antenna in place, it can focus on and electronically track a moving target using every photon generated by two 170 kVa generators (340 kVa combined); microwave photonics technology is involved. Space-time adaptive processing (STAP) is used coupled with digital low-noise receivers and processors to address noise or clutter on the screen and in target detection by extension.






Cover Story: Hawkeye’s Long Vision - Avionics International


Like many in their 40s, the E-2 Hawkeye program has learned a lot over the years, becoming smarter and better at what it does while realizing that time has taken its toll. But unlike other 40-somethings, the U.S. Navy’s flying radar program is undergoing a midlife rejuvenation that will make the...




www.aviationtoday.com







tphuang said:


> Don't underestimate J-10C. According to my contact, it's borderline LO in PLAAF service. But keep in mind, PLAAF has a wide fleet of EW aircraft that can mess with adversary radar system. And in PLAAF, J-10C can more effectively limit emissions because it can rely on other platform to do sensor fusion and pass it the targeting data. It can be guided by AWACs. But if PAF gets similar aerial assets from China, it can make J-10C a lot harder to detect.



US developed its first airborne Electronic Warfare (EW) solutions back in the days of World War II.



https://www.jstor.org/stable/26279464



China developed its first airborne EW solutions in the 1980s.

Both US and China had a measure of each other in the domain of EW not long ago:









How Pelosi’s Taiwan trip set off a new wave of US-China electronic warfare


PLA eyes in the sky and at sea sought to track the aircraft carrying the US House speaker.




www.scmp.com





J-10C can do all that can still be tracked from over 300 miles away. 



tphuang said:


> absolutely not. F-35 can be detected very easily within first island chain. According to both Chinese sources and verified by my contact. This is entirely off topic, but USAF isn't going to be able to deploy F-35As or tankers. All the surrounding air bases will get destroyed in the event of a westpac conflict. The recent DoD alluded this as much. Everything inside of Guam will be lost in the opening hours.



Surrounding airbases as in Philippines and Guam? Yes, China can direct PLRAF to attack these airbases.

Philippines is inducting Israeli Spyder air defense system(s) in the present. Philippines placed an order of 3 Spyder batteries in total. Spyder air defense system can be used to intercept aircraft, cruise missiles, helicopters and UAVs but I am not sure about its BMD capability. PLRAF can use DF-26 to strike at airbases in Philippines. US might have to dispatch a THAAD battery to an airbase in Philippines if it is to be used.

A THAAD battery is stationed in Guam already. DF-26 will not be of much help in Guam, therefore. China will have to direct PLAN to attack Guam instead but it might face USN there. The Battle of Guam might be realized.

F-35 can be detected very easily now?  Do you understand the difference between EARLY WARNING and TRACKING? You might receive EARLY WARNING within the first island chain when F-35 are used there. And there is a good chance that Chinese systems deployed in the first island chain are taken out in the process. I explained to you HOW this is possible in my previous post but you are back to square one on this one.

I have seen it all in this forum. Iranians claim to detect and shoot down F-35. Russians claim to detect and shoot down F-35. Chinese claim to detect and shoot down F-35. Every Tom, Dick and Harry claims to detect and shoot down F-35. Let's see if the rhetoric match claims made on a forum.

- Israel used its F-35 to infiltrate Iran to [simulate] strikes on desired targets in an unannounced drill as noted in here and here. ----(A)

- USAF used an F-35 to strike at desired targets in a sector of Syria in 2020 where Russian air defense systems such as S-300 and S-400 were active as noted in here. Both Syrian and Russian air defense systems could not detect the F-35 and counter it. ----(B)

- Israel used its F-35 to conduct strikes on desired targets in a well-protected sector of Syria as noted in here. These strikes also caught Syrian and Russian air defenses in the region by surprise. ----(C)

Just look at what an Iranian Brigadier General has to say about Russian air defense systems:









Russia’s S-400 is a disgrace in Syria, says Brigadier General Abdolrahim Mousavi


Tensions are escalating between Iran and Israel. Israel has said it had destroyed nearly all of Iran's military capabilities in Syria. It was reportedly retaliation for an Iranian missile attack on the Golan Heights. Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett's meeting with President Joe Biden comes...




www.globaldefensecorp.com





This is rare admittance from an Iranian military official.

You are now reminding me that this is off-topic discussion but YOU brought up F-35 in here. Funny.



tphuang said:


> Not even close to happening. That's why B-21 is needed. B-2 is 30 years old and in limited numbers. And very hard to maintain and have low availability.



THEY / THEM tell you _this_ in supposedly classified debriefings?

_The B-2 is one of the most game-changing aircraft ever built and one of the most cost-effective. It has a 172-foot wingspan, 20 feet wider than the Boeing 767 airliner, but unlike the 767, the B-2 has the radar signature of an insect—an amazing technical and manufacturing feat. Beyond the ability to use its low observability to penetrate enemy air defenses, the combination of the B-2’s large payload and precision delivery means its cost per effect is dramatically better than past or present power projection alternatives.

During World War II it took a thousand B-17 or B-24 bombers with 10,000 men and 9,000 weapons to attack a single target. Today the B-2 can attack 80 separate targets thousands of miles away with precision weapons in a single mission in a single day using two people. An aircraft carrier battle group with thousands of people, taking weeks of positioning time from thousands of miles away, and dozens of fighter-attack flights, can potentially achieve the same effects, but not with the same level of stealth, and at multiple orders of magnitude more cost both in terms of dollars and personnel._









The Invisible Anniversary Of The B-2 Bomber


Wednesday marks another anniversary that is less well known than man's first landing on the moon, but of significant consequence — the 30th anniversary of the first flight of the B-2 stealth bomber. Here's how it's transformed U.S. power projection, and at an underappreciatedly reasonable cost.




www.forbes.com





B-2A is called into action on an as-needed basis, and it takes just two B-2A to produce battlefield effects on par with a strike package involving up to 75 aircraft in a conventional war otherwise.

_During Allied Force, the air war over Serbia, six B-2s conducted 45 sorties out of 9,211 Air Force fighter and bomber sorties in the entire war—less than a half of one percent—but they struck 33 percent of the targets in the first eight weeks of combat._

Yugoslavian air defenses were modeled to counter stealthy aircraft in view of Operation Desert Storm but B-2A degraded them to the point of being utterly useless - Yugoslavian air defenses were able to shoot down only 2 aircraft in the entire war (F-117 = 1; F-16 = 1). B-2A delivered significant blows to Yugoslavian air defenses in opening phase of the war and made it much safer for the other aircraft to operate over the country by extension.

When B-2A are flying above, all those JUICY radar systems among other things shall be granted their last rites.

It still makes sense for US to produce a new bomber which would allow USAF to retire both B-1B and B-2A and bring something much more advanced to the table with the option to mass produce it. This is how things roll in life. Good things are eventually replaced by even BETTER things.



tphuang said:


> lol, you are talking about the most well defended air space in the world. A few hundred missiles aren't going to do much. Especially something that can as easily intercepted as subsonic cruise missiles. Even in operation desert storm, half of the tomahawk missiles were intercepted.



Baghdad was one of the most protected cities in the world in 1991, but:






I get it. Good defenses can instill confidence in Public but being over-confident is foolish.

I am not sure from where you are getting the idea that terrain-hugging cruise missiles are easy to detect and shoot down. And I am not sure from where you learned that HALF of the Tomahawk cruise missiles were intercepted over Iraq in 1991. Do you have relevant data on hand? A total of 288 Tomahawk Block II were used to strike at different targets in Iraq in 1991 with 85% of this inventory producing desired results. And a total of 218 Tomahawk Block III were used to strike at different targets in Yugoslavia in 1999 with over 90% of this inventory producing desired results.

Tomahawk Block IV mask itself very well in ground clutter, is found to be very difficult to jam (rare admission from Russians in here), and can be programmed to bypass threat zones in its pathway to reach desired target. It can also be instructed to change course or to loiter for a while. The window of opportunity to detect and intercept this cruise missile becomes very small, and a volley is virtually impossible to stop in any case. The image below shows older Block III capability:






Russians hinted about developing the capability to jam satnav receiver but Americans solved this problem in Block V:

_With the modification Block V__, Tomahawk has increased capabilities, which integrate new seeker, hitting the surface targets, more than 1000 miles range, greater penetrating power, less susceptible to jamming of its seeker and communication and navigation striking the target under the GPS taken down conditions._









Which cruise missile is more powerful, Tomahawk or Kalibr? - Naval Post- Naval News and Information


Comparison of Tomahawk cruise missile of the U.S. and Russia's Kalibr is a matter of curiosity. This article pitches a comparison of these two powerful missiles.




navalpost.com





A few hundred missiles are not going to do much? It comes down to which type of targets will be struck and what would be the resultant effects. US is known to attack airfields, air defense sites, and C2 nodes of any country. Defenses of any country are effective due to its C2 infrastructure - disable this infrastructure and you win half of the war in conventional terms. See the image above? What do you think it tells you?

The least you can do is to study how US fights a conventional war to understand why it does so well in this domain instead of allowing rhetoric to cloud your judgement. American armed forces understand conventional warfare on a scientific level and not as a mere collection of guns and bullets that are visible on the battlefield.

Nevertheless, China made an EXCELLENT decision to establish Military Theater Commands:














Learning from Russia: How China used Russian models and experiences to modernize the PLA


Main findings and conclusions This paper challenges the common assumption among military analysts that China’s military reforms are driven by strategic competition with the United States and inspired by changes in the US military as the sole...




merics.org





This division grants China sufficient mission flexibility to localize a conflict and preserve its resources while it can push for a diplomatic solution. Just look at how China is dealing with India.

China is using Western Theater Command to handle India, Southern Theater Command to handle Philippines, Eastern Theater Command to handle Taiwan, and Northern Theater Command to handle South Korea. US would also like to limit its response to a particular Military Theater Command that is involved in a localized conflict with a neighboring country that might warrant American attention such as in the case of Taiwan or in the case of South Korea. US is unlikely to get involved in other conflicts with the exception of Japan.

Good job there.



tphuang said:


> Why don't you take a look at how many ships USN has in 7th fleet and how many are in the port at any given time and how many tomahawk missiles they can hold (not how many VLS cells, but how tomahawk missiles they can actually hold). Hint: not every MK-41 cells can hold a tomahawk missile on Burke class ship. Due to age and excessive usage, USN ships have to spend a long time in port.



On any given day, up to (100 - 110) ships of the USN are found to be patrolling the oceans around the world. A total of 105 ships were active around the world as on 22-12-22 for instance; 50 were involved in various tasks while 55 were on patrol.

In case of hostilities with China, most of the active ships might be directed to the conflict zone. Assuming a mix of frigates, destroyers, cruisers, and aircraft carriers, up to 5000 VLS might be onboard and loaded, with Tomahawk Block IV + Block V as 50% of the load-out. Now add submarines to the equation. More importantly, USN has resupply-purpose ships.



tphuang said:


> And then why don't you take a look at how many CRUDES China has right now and how many of them are new and have high availability.
> 
> You do realize hypersonic missiles are a lot harder to intercept than subsonic missiles, right? any this YouTube clip is out of date. The most threatening missile facing USN right now is DF-17, which uses HGV, so it is actually a lot hard to detect and intercept than DF-21D. DF-21D is almost 10 years old. It's irrelevant to a future conflict.



China created the ASBM PSYOPS to dissuade American activities in the South China Sea (SCS) but this did not work. ASBM can be useful against a naval force that does not have credible BMD capability and CEC but USN has both.

DF-17 has sufficient accuracy to engage an aircraft carrier. This is in line with the revelation that DF-17 has CEP of 30 m. Problem is that an American aircraft carrier is a moving target and a fast one at that, and DF-17 can miss it much like DF-21D or any ASBM. About time you learn something about *hypersonic physics*.

1. An HGV has to slow down during the terminal phase of its flight in order to engage a target:

_The third technology involves launching a glider from a ballistic missile during its ascending phase, then piloting this device to “bounce” off the layers of the atmosphere to extend its range and change direction. This gives it a trajectory that is very complex to predict, but also leads to very high mechanical and thermal stresses on the terminal vehicle. Its range and final speed will depend on the initial thrust and then the profile of its kinetic energy degradation as it bounces off the layers of the atmosphere. As with the MaRV, the terminal velocity of the glider will be greatly reduced from the initial Mach 20, even potentially below Mach 5._









Hypersonic Missiles: Evolution or Revolution? - Naval News


The French Navy has long been aware of the opportunities that hypersonic missiles can bring for itself and its allies, as well as the threats this new technology would pose in the hands of its adversaries. Like the United States, it has been preparing for both the opportunities and threats, for...




www.navalnews.com





2. An HGV cannot be controlled like a Tomahawk cruise missile mid-flight:

_Hypersonic maneuvers or “bounces” generate high g-force accelerations which dictates very strict requirements for navigation systems, in particular inertial ones. Furthermore, while the ionization of the air around a hypersonic body has little impact on its detection by terrestrial or maritime radars, it can severely limit radio communications (as witnessed by the re-entry of Apollo spacecraft and the Space Shuttle), which proves problematic for external guidance using data link or even GPS. Finally, in the case of an HCM, the operation of a scramjet entails flight constraints in altitude and in profile, because the combustion chamber is optimized for temperature and air pressure conditions corresponding to a specific altitude. In general, very high altitudes are chosen (greater than 50,000 feet). If tactics dictate the need to vary the altitude of the missile, this can only be done at the cost of “deoptimization” of fuel consumption and therefore range, which can be reduced by as much as 80 percent from the theoretical optimum. _









Hypersonic Missiles: Evolution or Revolution? - Naval News


The French Navy has long been aware of the opportunities that hypersonic missiles can bring for itself and its allies, as well as the threats this new technology would pose in the hands of its adversaries. Like the United States, it has been preparing for both the opportunities and threats, for...




www.navalnews.com





3. An HGV is not an ideal choice to engage a moving target:

_Hypersonic missiles have so far been used (for example, the alleged Kinjal strikes in Ukraine) against stationary sites. If it is a question of hitting a moving target like a ship, we must add to the constraints above the problems of targeting and terminal guidance. For this type of target, the challenges related to the transmission and real-time refresh of information on a moving target still seem far from resolved. Another solution would be use a seeker. The problem with placing a seeker on the missile is that it must be located at the nose, which as noted is subject to the highest thermal stresses. In the present case, the use of a heat shield seems incompatible with that of a seeker positioned just behind, which must either emit and receive electromagnetic waves in return, or possibly work in the visual or infrared fields, which reduces its range or exposes it to the thermal phenomena already discussed at length. There are solutions for jettisonable fairings in the dense layers of the atmosphere to protect the seeker, but this jettison must be carried out once the missile has left the hypersonic range to avoid high g-force stress on the missile airframe.

Beyond the thermal constraints, remains the question of targeting to correct the trajectory of the missile. The speed of these weapons implies unmasking at very long distances compared to subsonic missiles. In addition, if the hypersonic missile flies at very high altitude, it must solve radar discrimination problems in what is commonly called sea clutter and therefore must use radar imaging processes using SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) technologies. Added to this is the identification of the target, which must be based on powerful algorithms. All these elements mean that in order to target a naval vessel, the missile must slow down and leave the hypersonic domain in the final phase, returning to “normal” supersonic speeds. However, a maneuvering supersonic missile remains a very complex target to intercept, especially if a substantial part of its flight was made at hypersonic speeds, reducing the time available for the OODA loop._









Hypersonic Missiles: Evolution or Revolution? - Naval News


The French Navy has long been aware of the opportunities that hypersonic missiles can bring for itself and its allies, as well as the threats this new technology would pose in the hands of its adversaries. Like the United States, it has been preparing for both the opportunities and threats, for...




www.navalnews.com





A maneuvering supersonic missile remains a very complex target to intercept _but_ USN has solved this problem for _itself_ to large extent. USN has conducted a large number of live-fire tests to develop its capability to intercept ASBM. These tests also show that 100% intercept rate might not be possible, so it helps to move fast like an American aircraft carrier. USN will also attempt to take out ABSM launchers with suitable munitions that might be used against it.

In light of the above, DF-17 is better suited for strikes on military bases and infrastructure. But USN is developing relevant countermeasures just in case. SM-6 Block 1B is a hypersonic multi-purpose missile and can be used to intercept HGV. Older SM-6 variants might be up to the task as well. But you will not see Americans bragging about this capability on purpose - not anytime soon.

But this:



https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2022-12-29/china-sails-warships-near-guam-in-warning-to-u-s-over-taiwan



I have always maintained that PLAN is your best shot against USN in the Pacific. PLAN is looking forward to put together another Carrier Strike Group (CSG) involving Type 003 with a force composition of KJ-600, J-35 and J-15D - a step in the right direction if you ask me.

----

DF-21D is irrelevant to a future conflict? It is very good MRBM and can be used in regional conflicts if not more. USN can do something about it but this does not suggest that others can.

I did maintain for a long time that Americans understand "rocket science" well enough and they will produce countermeasures for sophisticated ballistic missiles. PAC-3 interceptor is extensively tested and it defeated Pershing II (Storm II target) much like any other ballistic missile when it came in the "engagement envelope." Bypassing a Patriot battery is one thing, trying to engage a target that is protected by a Patriot battery is another. But THAAD provides much greater "engagement envelope" in comparison, THAAD and Patriot are interoperable.



tphuang said:


> you need to stop watching YouTube clips and get into reality. Ohio class according to my nuclear sub contacts are constantly breaking down because they are so old.



Facepalm.  Each Ohio-class submarine was originally built to last 30 years in oceanic environment(s), and some were produced at a different point in time. But service life of each was extended to 42 years in time. USN feels the need to extend service life yet further of the oldest productions in use (5 in total)*; others are GOOD.

*A news like this comes out and you are assuming that USN is broke? Seriously dude.

You cry OLD each time but you need to realize that Americans have produced steel that is about 3 times stronger than top-of-the-line Chinese steel which Americans have access to in compliance with American IMPORT quality standards. Every country is not producing cheap disposable goods.



tphuang said:


> Seems like you've spent too much time reading US military propaganda. CEC is nothing new. China has that and sensor fusion. If you don't have these things, it's not fifth generation. J-20s have them. Even J-10Cs might have them (can't remember for sure). I'm not sure why you are constantly downgrading J-10C capabilities.



I like to do my own homework instead of taking any side's propaganda at face value.

Every professional military force has built C2 infrastructure to enable network-centric warfare (NCW) but level of complexity can be distinguished on following counts:

- PCW allows each platform to provide operational updates to the other through the Combat Information Center (CIC).

- NCW allows each platform to share valuable information in real-time with the other by linking radar systems and CIC across all platforms to produce a Common Operating Picture (COP).

- CEC is a step up above NCW by allowing all types of sensor systems to be linked to produce relatively rich COP with the element of Central Control (CC) that can automatically decide and assign air defense mission to individual platform.









Analysis of Effectiveness of CEC (Cooperative Engagement Capability) Using Schutzer's C2 Theory


Information superiority can be obtained by enhancement of the command and control system. While weapon systems may have been developed to a point of decreasing returns regarding firepower, command and control C2 systems can be developed further. The force that has superior C2 may win the fight...



apps.dtic.mil












https://www.researchgate.net/figure/CECs-Principal-Functions-Source-The-Cooperative-Engagement-Capability-Johns_fig1_235187469



In case of aircraft, you are looking at NCW capability much like Link 16.

Let me show you something:






F-15E and F-15EX can have NCW with each other via Link 16 but F-15E will have to depend upon F-15EX to achieve at par COP when both are deployed and used. This does not suggest that F-15E can leverage every sensor system of F-15EX to achieve at par COP but this information exchange will be limited to radar data.

F-35 can leverage every sensor system of another F-35 to produce excellent COP and reduce its footprint via MADL - this is 5th generation sensor fusion in American terms.

But the (F-35 - F-35) network level is not CEC because it must involve taking cues from other platforms to produce excellent COP for all of the platforms involved. CEC is enabled by equipment of its own which must be installed in each platform to do the needful and is tied to the NIFC-CA principle of USN.

Speaking of J-10C, do you think that it can process information at par with J-20 akin to the (F-15EX - F-15EX) network level? Or it will work with J-20 akin to the (F-15E - F-15EX) network level? Or do you think that J-10C can detect and track F-35 in real-time and provide cues to a Type 055 destroyer of PLAN to engage it from considerable distance akin to CEC?









F-35, SM-6 Live Fire Test Points to Expansion in Networked Naval Warfare


An F-35 test with an Aegis Combat System armed with a SM-6 is the latest step how the Navy and Marine Corps will share data on future battlefields.




news.usni.org





Now you can understand following statement: _"Those radar systems which can detect F-35 such as Chinese YLC-8E might not be able to track it in real time for long -- F-35 is equipped with state-of-the-art broadband EW capabilities for good reason. Combat tactics is another factor -- F-35 offers unprecedented situational awareness to the pilot who in turn will not wait for the kill chain to establish and work against him but engage and destroy valuable targets at earliest opportunity. If this is not possible then F-35 can be used to illuminate YLC-8E among other radar systems on the surface for the USN to take out with a barrage of Tomahawks. The benefits of CEC are boundless. Radar systems on the surface are vulnerable to decapitating strikes but airborne platforms like E-2D can survive with air escort. You might have faith in A2/AD systems like HQ-9 but virtually nothing could stop a volley of Tomahawks from approaching desired targets in conflicts around the world and these cruise missiles are kept up to date."_

PLAN might have developed CEC of its own but I do not recall any demonstrations from PLAN to this effect. PLAN has yet to show that it can shoot down an ASBM let alone CEC. When PLAN will demonstrate these experiments much like USN then WE can talk.



tphuang said:


> Detecting and then locking onto F-35s is not that difficult for PLA. KJ-500s are locking onto F-35s constantly. That's why you see Wilsbach talking about how they want to break the PLAAF kill chain where KJ-500s can guide long range AAMs to USAF aircraft.
> 
> Keep in mind that USAF considers J-20's frontal stealth to be comparable to earlier blocks of F-35As. That's why the aggressor squad for J-20 uses earlier F-35As. In comparison, USAF uses F-16s to simulate Su-57.



F-35 is designed and currently equipped to deflect and absorb radar waves across a number of frequency bands ranging from L to V by virtue of its shaping when combined with its known RAM application:

_A radar absorbing composite includes a (CNT)-infused fiber material disposed in at least a portion of a matrix material. The composite absorbs radar in a frequency range from about 0.10 Megahertz to about 60 Gigahertz. The CNT-infused fiber material forms a first layer that reduces radar reflectance and a second layer that dissipates the energy of the radar. A method of manufacturing this composite includes disposing a CNT-infused fiber material in a portion of a matrix material with a controlled orientation of the CNT-infused fiber material within the matrix material, and curing the matrix material. The composite can be formed into a panel which is adaptable as a structural component of a transport vessel or missile for use in stealth applications._






US20100271253A1 - Cnt-based signature control material - Google Patents


A radar absorbing composite includes a (CNT)-infused fiber material disposed in at least a portion of a matrix material. The composite absorbs radar in a frequency range from about 0.10 Megahertz to about 60 Gigahertz. The CNT-infused fiber material forms a first layer that reduces radar...



patents.google.com





This RAM application allows F-35 to deflect and absorb radar waves across frequency bands ranging from L to V.






These measures allow F-35 to significantly reduce the Line-Of-Sight (LOS) of various radar systems including those operating in the L-band for it to maneuver through the threat environment. Please keep in mind that you will *NOT* find F-35 RCS simulation data involving its RAM application on the web in Public domain - you will have to use your imagination instead.

I can accept that KJ-500 can detect and track F-35 _*but*_ but *NOT* from far away since its radar system is known to operate in the L-band unless it uses HARRY POTTER MAGIC in place of *radar physics*. Detecting and processing a target like F-35 from considerable distance(s) in the BVR regime is the ultimate challenge for every country that does NOT have access to American state-of-the-art.
+
Your claim that _"KJ-500s are locking onto F-35 constantly"_ cannot be taken seriously until you provide relevant details. When did these encounters took place? And are you sure that these F-35 were operating without luneburg lens? The only known operational flights of F-35 without luneburg lens are the ones that I have marked as (A), (B), and (C) respectively (see above).
+
Wilsbach said that KJ-500 has a key role in long-range air-to-air kill chains - generic statement if you ask me. WE cannot tell much from this statement alone.



tphuang said:


> you really need to read more than just what US military is doing. Seriously.



Trust me, I am. But I cannot say the same about you.



tphuang said:


> The point is that PL-15 has large AESA seeker, so it can be a fire and forget weapon. The threshold for weapon grade locking aren't as high as something using an older mechanical seeker like every other AAMs out there.
> 
> It's again amazing to me here that Pakistani fans aren't appreciating what a great AAM you just got.



No air-to-air missile is truly Fire and Forget because it has to produce desired results in what could be possibly be an EW dense environment. Two-way datalink can be helpful in this matter.









Is the European Meteor Air-To-Air Missile Really the Best in the World?


Some would say the best arrow is the one still left in your quiver.




www.thedrive.com





But being VLO is very helpful:









Two RAAF F-35A Lightning II stealth fighters killed Six RSAF F-15SG fighters in a single mock engagement during Exercise Pitch Black 2022 - The Aviation Geek Club


Two RAAF F-35A Lightning II stealth fighters killed Six RSAF F-15SG fighters in a single mock engagement during Exercise Pitch Black 2022




theaviationgeekclub.com





FIRST LOOK - FIRST SHOT - FIRST KILL

In case you are wondering, F-15SG is 4++ generation fighter (one of the best in the world).

---
China has provided PL-15E to PAF by the way - this is less capable version than the original PL-15. But "thank you." 



tphuang said:


> Again, you spent too much time with this decade long Lockheed propaganda. F-35 is a great aircraft, but what is has right now is nothing special compared to J-20. I'm not sure why you are wasting this much breaths on F-35 on a J-10 thread.
> 
> It really isn't. J-20 and F-35 radar signature from the front is quite comparable once you get to S band or lower. Again, USAF uses a F-35 to simulate J-20 and it uses F-16 to simulate Su-57.



See above and tell me.

J-20 has relatively different shaping than F-35 and its effects are pointed out at length in following link:









J-20 Radar scattering simulation


Introduction J-20 is the world’s third operational fifth-generation stealth fighter aircraft after the F-22 and F-35. It made China the second country in the world af…




basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com





And what about J-20 RAM application? How capable it is?

I could find following:

_In this article, a multifunctional and tunable radar absorber which can achieve dynamical modulation of absorbing frequency, bandwidth, and amplitude is presented. Such a tunable radar absorber is composed of a graphene capacitor layer and an active metasurface layer. By controlling the impedance characteristic of each layer through the external bias voltages, the absorber not only can achieve the ultrawideband electromagnetic (EM) absorbing performance, but also can be switched to a narrowband absorption mode, and its absorption amplitude can be further adjusted at each of the above operation modes. Both simulated and experimental results have demonstrated that the −10-dB reflection bandwidth ranging from 3.55 to 19.6 GHz can be realized, and the average reflection amplitude can be dynamically tuned between −3.8 and −11.5 dB. In addition, by changing the bias voltages, the absorber can also, respectively, switch its −10 dB reflection bandwidth to 3.5−11.1 GHz and 10.9−18.9 GHz, where the larger dynamic range of amplitude modulation is obtained. The equivalent circuit model is employed to explain the tunable absorption mechanism by analyzing the impedance matching characteristics. This hybrid design approach can effectively expand the EM reconfigurable functionalities of the current tunable absorber, which may further open a novel way of the graphene application in microwave frequencies._



https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/admt.202001050



This RAM application allows J-20 to deflect and absorb radar waves across frequency bands ranging from S to Ku.






J-20 seems to be a well-equipped jet fighter and posit a significant threat to any adversary in theory but China is still learning the craft and you are expecting too much from your FIRST attempt at creating a VLO aircraft. You seem to have no clue about American advances in stealthy applications and technologies.

Yes, I am aware of USAF using F-35 to simulate RCS of J-20 - this is the LOGICAL on its part. F-35 allows USAF to simulate RCS of upcoming J-35 as well. What you see in this case is the advantage of having a significant headstart in the domain of stealth sciences.



tphuang said:


> JY27A is a very old export radar.



Now you admit it.

But don't worry - I appreciate your honesty.

YJ-27A is still a good radar system and an asset of PAF - helpful against Indian threat dynamics in the present. Thank you. 



tphuang said:


> People that are actually working with US military and have up to date classified information are all taking J-20, KJ-500 and UHF/VHF radar very seriously. And they are investing serious money into NGAD and B-21 in order to penetrate Chinese air space, because the current generation of aircraft cannot do so.



See above and tell me.

US finds itself in GREAT POWER COMPETITION with China so it is absolutely expected from the American Military Industrial Complex to push technological boundaries for the benefit of American armed forces.

NGAD and B-21 are being developed with battlefields of the future in mind like in the 2030s and beyond. What are you thinking really?



tphuang said:


> Frankly, my initial post was to explain to people here that J-10C and PL-15 are very capable platforms for PAF to use. PAF is clearly happy with what they got.
> 
> Somehow, you got triggered. It's not my problem that the thought of US military losing badly in a westpac conflict is so shocking to you. But these Chinese weapons are very capable and it's your loss for not understanding that.



And you could keep it simple and focused on how J-10C can be used to handle Rafale F3R which is the immediate concern and threat for PAF.

I am NOT triggered but addressing your *rhetoric* with technical information on hand for the benefit of all readers. WE must have realistic assessment of these themes instead of thinking like Saddam Hussein.

You are now resorting to ad-hominem which is unfortunate. PDF is a DISCUSSION BOARD and NOT any side's marketing echo chamber. Your input is appreciated but maturity is advised. And try to keep up with technical information because it becomes tiresome to explain it again and again. Thanks.

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## NooriNuth

Deino said:


> Actually I highly question this even if from an official PAF brochure.
> 
> View attachment 908297
> 
> 
> 32,000lbs ??? If I’m not mistaken this would be 142.34 kN, which is IMO impossible, since this is the thrust rating often given for the J-20‘s WS-10C but not for the WS-10B.
> 
> As such and since we have seen so many official brochures including wrong data and since this contradicts the official one from AVIC/CAC I’m not sure if simply one from the PAF staff googled a bit and used this. For the WS-10B this thrust is not even given for the J-16 but always something around 136-138 kN.


So why a user is not allowed to reveal actual specs?
Why such blockage from Chinese government?


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## Riz



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Deino said:


> Was this already posted?
> 
> View attachment 908869


yes


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

J10CE assigned to no.15 squadron "COBRAS"

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## Deino

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> yes




When and where?


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Deino said:


> When and where?


My dear friend, it's post no 7965.

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## NooriNuth

Deino said:


> When and where?


So going back to WS-10B thrust.
It's 70kn dry and 144kn wet?
Compared to F-16 engine. The dry thrust is lower than F-16 but wet is much higher.
Don't know if ots good or bad.

EDIT :
Just read wiki ( Yeah I know).
TWR of F-16 is still better than J-10C.
Despite J-10c having a more powerful engine, the aircraft also happens to ne heavier than Eff Soola.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

J-10CP omnirole fighter aircraft

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## theforgotten0007

Appreciate the sources for posterity. Let's try to unpack this:


LeGenD said:


> E-3G proving itself in the recent Syrian conflict:
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> Boeing E-3G makes Middle East combat debut
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> The US Air Force has sent its newly upgraded E-3G Sentry into harm's way for the first time on a deployment to Southwest Asia, where it will presumably be supporting the increasingly cluttered air campaign against Islamic State militants in Iraq and Syria.
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> www.flightglobal.com
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> Eye in the sky: U.S. and allies have near-total view of Syria’s aerial battlefield
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> The missions monitor anti-ISIS coalition aircraft in the eastern part of the country, as well as Russian activity in the west.
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> AWACS: NATO’s 'eyes in the sky'
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> NATO operates a fleet of Boeing E-3A Airborne Warning & Control System (AWACS) aircraft, with their distinctive radar domes mounted on the fuselage, which provide the Alliance with air surveillance, command and control, battle space management and communications. NATO Air Base (NAB)...
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> www.nato.int
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> - is OLD ???


Yes, it is old. Just because it was used relatively recently to maximize its ageing shelf-life (since '70s) doesn't make the claim invalid. After all, the last unit manufactured dates back to 1992. Indeed, USAF all but admitted it when they announced the "aging" E-3s are due for replacement by the newer E-7 Wedgetail platform. I'm puzzled as to why you seem perplexed by this when you went on to address its replacement potential subsequently, even citing an article by RUSI on the subject.



LeGenD said:


> It looks like you missed some of the links embedded in my statements in my previous post. I am fully aware of your TOP LINK because I felt that you are confusing J-10C with J-20 when you originally claimed that E3G is having difficulty tracking J-10C from unspecified distance(s) which is unlikely:
> 
> _"RSIP allow detection of targets about 10 times smaller than non-RSIP AWACS radars, including cruise missiles. Range Resolution improve by 6 times, with a 70 - 100 % increase in Detection Range, and much better Range, Altitude and Azimuth accuracy. RSIP radars are able to see targets with a 0.5 m radar cross section at 300 n.mi. or more. The modification include a new Pulse-compressed waveform, two new adaptive signature processors, and better electronic countermeasures proofing."_
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293774906_Airborne_early_warning_acquires_new_targets


I'll skip the bit about J-10/J-20 and its radar deflecting properties since I don't think anyone can confidently lay claim to RAM/detection capabilities from either side unless one's directly involved with their respective defense departments. Even then, I'm firmly of the believe that: _the people who know won't reveal anything and the people who don't, will claim otherwise_. That said, I have to point out that citing a 2008 article from an academic standpoint is intellectually flimsy. Most academics agree that research papers are only relevant within a period of a decade as the science would've progressed beyond recognition since.



LeGenD said:


> Do you expect K. S. Wilsbach to be sincere with you? This man could be spreading disinformation on purpose.


Why yes, it's quite believable actually.

The quote was lifted from an interview conducted by the Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies, which is an incredible trove of information made available to the public by the think-tank, ostensibly to formulate informed policies for office-holders. The part that raises eyebrows is that in a span of <6mths, Wilsbach somewhat walked back on his initial statements on how it's (J-20s) "not anything to lose a lot of sleep over". Seems quite a chore if he wanted to spread disinformation when he could've dismissed its capabilities initially.



LeGenD said:


> China developed its first airborne EW solutions in the 1980s.
> 
> Both US and China had a measure of each other in the domain of EW not long ago:
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> How Pelosi’s Taiwan trip set off a new wave of US-China electronic warfare
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> PLA eyes in the sky and at sea sought to track the aircraft carrying the US House speaker.
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> www.scmp.com
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> 
> J-10C can do all that can still be tracked from over 300 miles away.


But you don't seem to have trust issues here when citing an unknown source in this article, by Minnie Chan (of all people)...



LeGenD said:


> F-35 can be detected very easily now?  Do you understand the difference between EARLY WARNING and TRACKING? You might receive EARLY WARNING within the first island chain when F-35 are used there. And there is a good chance that Chinese systems deployed in the first island chain are taken out in the process. I explained to you HOW this is possible in my previous post but you are back to square one on this one.
> 
> - Israel used its F-35 to infiltrate Iran to [simulate] strikes on desired targets in an unannounced drill as noted in here and here. ----(A)
> 
> - USAF used an F-35 to strike at desired targets in a sector of Syria in 2020 where Russian air defense systems such as S-300 and S-400 were active as noted in here. Both Syrian and Russian air defense systems could not detect the F-35 and counter it. ----(B)
> 
> - Israel used its F-35 to conduct strikes on desired targets in a well-protected sector of Syria as noted in here. These strikes also caught Syrian and Russian air defenses in the region by surprise. ----(C)
> 
> Just look at what an Iranian Brigadier General has to say about Russian air defense systems:
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> Russia’s S-400 is a disgrace in Syria, says Brigadier General Abdolrahim Mousavi
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> Tensions are escalating between Iran and Israel. Israel has said it had destroyed nearly all of Iran's military capabilities in Syria. It was reportedly retaliation for an Iranian missile attack on the Golan Heights. Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett's meeting with President Joe Biden comes...
> 
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> www.globaldefensecorp.com
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> .
> 
> This is rare admittance from an Iranian military official.


Again, not delving deep into the specifics of stealth but do consider this for a moment: China is neither Iran nor Syria.

The operative word of today's war being *informationized warfare *(IW).

Essentially, it's insufficient to simply conclude that a single BMD failure be attributed to the entirety of said weapons system. These systems are capable of being hooked up to a slew of other equipment to provide a better battlefield awareness i.e. sensor fusion. In fact, systems integration is a reason why US rescinded terms of F35 support from Turkey (a NATO member) when the latter chose the S400 over it: *"Turkey’s purchase of the Russian S-400 air-defence system threatens its acquisition of the F-35 aircraft and its involvement in the F-35’s production programme." *Should Turkey be allowed to purchase and integrate both S-400 with the JSF's Multifunction Advanced Data Link (MADL), you can be sure the IT systems within the F35s will be compromised in Russia's hands. US DoD knew this and was right to be alarmed.

I also noticed how defense enthusiasts have been overtly critical of Russian systems since the start of the war when the reality is anything but - S-400s have proven their worth recently over Ukraine. Granted, S-400s weren't facing F35s unlike Iranians/Syrians but Ukraine is also heavily assisted by NATO-lite capabilities + intelligence network from Musk's Starlink.

Speaking of satellites, here's an example of China's (1) Jilin (2) monitoring F22s/missiles (3). This is also an essential step in the kill-chain for identifying USN carriers btw. IF all else fails, there's always HUMINT/IMINT monitoring the whereabouts of US assets because China has a legion of bodies to throw at anyway. That's not even discussing drones harvesting intelligence but I digress.



LeGenD said:


> I have seen it all in this forum. Iranians claim to detect and shoot down F-35. Russians claim to detect and shoot down F-35. Chinese claim to detect and shoot down F-35. Every Tom, Dick and Harry claims to detect and shoot down F-35. Let's see if the rhetoric match claims made on a forum.







LeGenD said:


> THEY / THEM tell you _this_ in supposedly classified debriefings?
> 
> _The B-2 is one of the most game-changing aircraft ever built and one of the most cost-effective. It has a 172-foot wingspan, 20 feet wider than the Boeing 767 airliner, but unlike the 767, the B-2 has the radar signature of an insect—an amazing technical and manufacturing feat. Beyond the ability to use its low observability to penetrate enemy air defenses, the combination of the B-2’s large payload and precision delivery means its cost per effect is dramatically better than past or present power projection alternatives.
> 
> During World War II it took a thousand B-17 or B-24 bombers with 10,000 men and 9,000 weapons to attack a single target. Today the B-2 can attack 80 separate targets thousands of miles away with precision weapons in a single mission in a single day using two people. An aircraft carrier battle group with thousands of people, taking weeks of positioning time from thousands of miles away, and dozens of fighter-attack flights, can potentially achieve the same effects, but not with the same level of stealth, and at multiple orders of magnitude more cost both in terms of dollars and personnel._
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> The Invisible Anniversary Of The B-2 Bomber
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> Wednesday marks another anniversary that is less well known than man's first landing on the moon, but of significant consequence — the 30th anniversary of the first flight of the B-2 stealth bomber. Here's how it's transformed U.S. power projection, and at an underappreciatedly reasonable cost.
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> www.forbes.com
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> B-2A is called into action on an as-needed basis, and it takes just two B-2A to produce battlefield effects on par with a strike package involving up to 75 aircraft in a conventional war otherwise.
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> _During Allied Force, the air war over Serbia, six B-2s conducted 45 sorties out of 9,211 Air Force fighter and bomber sorties in the entire war—less than a half of one percent—but they struck 33 percent of the targets in the first eight weeks of combat._
> 
> Yugoslavian air defenses were modeled to counter stealthy aircraft in view of Operation Desert Storm but B-2A degraded them to the point of being utterly useless - Yugoslavian air defenses were able to shoot down only 2 aircraft in the entire war (F-117 = 1; F-16 = 1). B-2A delivered significant blows to Yugoslavian air defenses in opening phase of the war and made it much safer for the other aircraft to operate over the country by extension.
> 
> When B-2A are flying above, all those JUICY radar systems among other things shall be granted their last rites.
> 
> It still makes sense for US to produce a new bomber which would allow USAF to retire both B-1B and B-2A and bring something much more advanced to the table with the option to mass produce it. This is how things roll in life. Good things are eventually replaced by even BETTER things.


Again, not sure about the stealth capabilities of the B-2 to form an opinion but wouldn't the downing of the F-117, one of the stealthiest jet available back then (1999), in a highly contested environment rife with jamming interference by the hands of Serbs' S-125, be telling enough that F35s today wouldn't be able to operate freely in the WestPac during an event of a hot war?



LeGenD said:


> Baghdad was one of the most protected cities in the world in 1991, but:
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> I get it. Good defenses can instill confidence in Public but being over-confident is foolish.
> 
> I am not sure from where you are getting the idea that terrain-hugging cruise missiles are easy to detect and shoot down. And I am not sure from where you learned that HALF of the Tomahawk cruise missiles were intercepted over Iraq in 1991. Do you have relevant data on hand? A total of 288 Tomahawk Block II were used to strike at different targets in Iraq in 1991 with 85% of this inventory producing desired results. And a total of 218 Tomahawk Block III were used to strike at different targets in Yugoslavia in 1999 with over 90% of this inventory producing desired results.
> 
> Tomahawk Block IV mask itself very well in ground clutter, is found to be very difficult to jam (rare admission from Russians in here), and can be programmed to bypass threat zones in its pathway to reach desired target. It can also be instructed to change course or to loiter for a while. The window of opportunity to detect and intercept this cruise missile becomes very small, and a volley is virtually impossible to stop in any case. The image below shows older Block III capability:
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> Russians hinted about developing the capability to jam satnav receiver but Americans solved this problem in Block V:
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> _With the modification Block V__, Tomahawk has increased capabilities, which integrate new seeker, hitting the surface targets, more than 1000 miles range, greater penetrating power, less susceptible to jamming of its seeker and communication and navigation striking the target under the GPS taken down conditions._
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> Which cruise missile is more powerful, Tomahawk or Kalibr? - Naval Post- Naval News and Information
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> Comparison of Tomahawk cruise missile of the U.S. and Russia's Kalibr is a matter of curiosity. This article pitches a comparison of these two powerful missiles.
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> navalpost.com


Latest block of Tomahawks might be tricky to shoot down...but not impossible.

550 miles/hour isn't very fast by today's standards compared to hypersonics and the HQ-16 ABM (and its multiservice variants) mounted with Type 346 (Dragon Eye) radar and HE-fragmentation warhead (detonation radius of ~35m) is designed to target terrain hugging/sea-skimming types. They're frequently compared to US' Evolved Seasparrow Missile (ESSM) or French Aster missiles with an official min. altitude of 50m. Safe to say, Tomahawks hovering at >10m elevation would be the first thing on PLA's mind when designing such systems.

I'd even argue their long range HQ-9Bs could fulfil the same objectives if need be given their confidence in deploying them on all PLAN platforms.



LeGenD said:


> On any given day, up to (100 - 110) ships of the USN are found to be patrolling the oceans around the world. A total of 105 ships were active around the world as on 22-12-22 for instance; 50 were involved in various tasks while 55 were on patrol.
> 
> In case of hostilities with China, most of the active ships might be directed to the conflict zone. Assuming a mix of frigates, destroyers, cruisers, and aircraft carriers, up to 5000 VLS might be onboard and loaded, with Tomahawk Block IV + Block V as 50% of the load-out. Now add submarines to the equation. More importantly, USN has resupply-purpose ships.
> 
> China created the ASBM PSYOPS to dissuade American activities in the South China Sea (SCS) but this did not work. ASBM can be useful against a naval force that does not have credible BMD capability and CEC but USN has both.


If you think the USN alone, in peacetime conditions has a prayer's chance in conducting a hot conflict in China's backyard today then you haven't been paying attention.

No one in their right mind thinks this is possible without allies in the region. Current PLARF's estimates alone outnumbers the number of ships USN can deploy >10 to 1, even assuming all VLS are filled to max capacity. Let's not even go on about the necessity of resupply bases to conduct such an op. The author of "carrier killer" also goes further into the pacing threat.

There's a reason why US is desperately seeking a defensive alliance around the island chains yet neighbouring countries are reluctant to enter the fray. Incidentally, this brings us to your point about "psyops" because whatever China is doing, it seems to be working well in deterring effective relationships from being formed against their interests.



LeGenD said:


> DF-17 has sufficient accuracy to engage an aircraft carrier. This is in line with the revelation that DF-17 has CEP of 30 m. Problem is that an American aircraft carrier is a moving target and a fast one at that, and DF-17 can miss it much like DF-21D or any ASBM. About time you learn something about *hypersonic physics*.
> 
> 1. An HGV has to slow down during the terminal phase of its flight in order to engage a target:
> 
> _The third technology involves launching a glider from a ballistic missile during its ascending phase, then piloting this device to “bounce” off the layers of the atmosphere to extend its range and change direction. This gives it a trajectory that is very complex to predict, but also leads to very high mechanical and thermal stresses on the terminal vehicle. Its range and final speed will depend on the initial thrust and then the profile of its kinetic energy degradation as it bounces off the layers of the atmosphere. As with the MaRV, the terminal velocity of the glider will be greatly reduced from the initial Mach 20, even potentially below Mach 5._
> 
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> Hypersonic Missiles: Evolution or Revolution? - Naval News
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> The French Navy has long been aware of the opportunities that hypersonic missiles can bring for itself and its allies, as well as the threats this new technology would pose in the hands of its adversaries. Like the United States, it has been preparing for both the opportunities and threats, for...
> 
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> www.navalnews.com
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> 2. An HGV cannot be controlled like a Tomahawk cruise missile mid-flight:
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> _Hypersonic maneuvers or “bounces” generate high g-force accelerations which dictates very strict requirements for navigation systems, in particular inertial ones. Furthermore, while the ionization of the air around a hypersonic body has little impact on its detection by terrestrial or maritime radars, it can severely limit radio communications (as witnessed by the re-entry of Apollo spacecraft and the Space Shuttle), which proves problematic for external guidance using data link or even GPS. Finally, in the case of an HCM, the operation of a scramjet entails flight constraints in altitude and in profile, because the combustion chamber is optimized for temperature and air pressure conditions corresponding to a specific altitude. In general, very high altitudes are chosen (greater than 50,000 feet). If tactics dictate the need to vary the altitude of the missile, this can only be done at the cost of “deoptimization” of fuel consumption and therefore range, which can be reduced by as much as 80 percent from the theoretical optimum. _
> 
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> Hypersonic Missiles: Evolution or Revolution? - Naval News
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> The French Navy has long been aware of the opportunities that hypersonic missiles can bring for itself and its allies, as well as the threats this new technology would pose in the hands of its adversaries. Like the United States, it has been preparing for both the opportunities and threats, for...
> 
> 
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> www.navalnews.com
> 
> 
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> 
> 3. An HGV is not an ideal choice to engage a moving target:
> 
> _Hypersonic missiles have so far been used (for example, the alleged Kinjal strikes in Ukraine) against stationary sites. If it is a question of hitting a moving target like a ship, we must add to the constraints above the problems of targeting and terminal guidance. For this type of target, the challenges related to the transmission and real-time refresh of information on a moving target still seem far from resolved. Another solution would be use a seeker. The problem with placing a seeker on the missile is that it must be located at the nose, which as noted is subject to the highest thermal stresses. In the present case, the use of a heat shield seems incompatible with that of a seeker positioned just behind, which must either emit and receive electromagnetic waves in return, or possibly work in the visual or infrared fields, which reduces its range or exposes it to the thermal phenomena already discussed at length. There are solutions for jettisonable fairings in the dense layers of the atmosphere to protect the seeker, but this jettison must be carried out once the missile has left the hypersonic range to avoid high g-force stress on the missile airframe.
> 
> Beyond the thermal constraints, remains the question of targeting to correct the trajectory of the missile. The speed of these weapons implies unmasking at very long distances compared to subsonic missiles. In addition, if the hypersonic missile flies at very high altitude, it must solve radar discrimination problems in what is commonly called sea clutter and therefore must use radar imaging processes using SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) technologies. Added to this is the identification of the target, which must be based on powerful algorithms. All these elements mean that in order to target a naval vessel, the missile must slow down and leave the hypersonic domain in the final phase, returning to “normal” supersonic speeds. However, a maneuvering supersonic missile remains a very complex target to intercept, especially if a substantial part of its flight was made at hypersonic speeds, reducing the time available for the OODA loop._
> 
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> Hypersonic Missiles: Evolution or Revolution? - Naval News
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> 
> The French Navy has long been aware of the opportunities that hypersonic missiles can bring for itself and its allies, as well as the threats this new technology would pose in the hands of its adversaries. Like the United States, it has been preparing for both the opportunities and threats, for...
> 
> 
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> www.navalnews.com
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> 
> A maneuvering supersonic missile remains a very complex target to intercept _but_ USN has solved this problem for _itself_ to large extent. USN has conducted a large number of live-fire tests to develop its capability to intercept ASBM. These tests also show that 100% intercept rate might not be possible, so it helps to move fast like an American aircraft carrier. USN will also attempt to take out ABSM launchers with suitable munitions that might be used against it.
> 
> In light of the above, DF-17 is better suited for strikes on military bases and infrastructure. But USN is developing relevant countermeasures just in case. SM-6 Block 1B is a hypersonic multi-purpose missile and can be used to intercept HGV. Older SM-6 variants might be up to the task as well. But you will not see Americans bragging about this capability on purpose - not anytime soon.


I believe the "30m" figure is from a (2015-2017?) RAND report found here, which is an estimate used in wargaming simulations. The actual quote of their PGM capabilities is: "By 2009, another variant, the DF-15B—reportedly added an active radar seeker and a laser range finder to reach a CEP of* five to ten meters*."

You brought up a good point about speedy moving targets however which is why China's been pushing the envelope on a combination of datalinks between ELINT; satellite feeds and drone platforms (WZ-7/8). The window of communication during full on ionization is during the "blackout phase" where it bounces off signals between satellites to the HGV in reentry. I'm not saying it's easy...because if it were, US/Russia would've done it by now but considering their Chang'e satellite managed to land on the dark side of the moon, I'd say it's more than feasible. HGV is fairly well-understood science by now, it isn't some new ground. Afterall, US already conducted their own tests back in the 80s with the Pershing.

That said, seems China's right on track with their goals of furthering accuracy of AShBMs. This also lends credence to their recent statement about US hacking their Northwestern Polytechnical University in Xi’an, which specializes in aeronautics and space research.



LeGenD said:


> DF-21D is irrelevant to a future conflict? It is very good MRBM and can be used in regional conflicts if not more. USN can do something about it but this does not suggest that others can.
> 
> I did maintain for a long time that Americans understand "rocket science" well enough and they will produce countermeasures for sophisticated ballistic missiles. PAC-3 interceptor is extensively tested and it defeated Pershing II (Storm II target) much like any other ballistic missile when it came in the "engagement envelope." Bypassing a Patriot battery is one thing, trying to engage a target that is protected by a Patriot battery is another. But THAAD provides much greater "engagement envelope" in comparison, THAAD and Patriot are interoperable.


As a sidenote: Patriots failed to defend Saudi refineries from Iranian rockets a few years back. Also, remember the North korean drones that South korea failed to shoot down a few days back? It flew around and took some photos of THAAD systems in 2017.



LeGenD said:


> Facepalm.  Each Ohio-class submarine was originally built to last 30 years in oceanic environment(s), and some were produced at a different point in time. But service life of each was extended to 42 years in time. USN feels the need to extend service life yet further of the oldest productions in use (5 in total)*; others are GOOD.
> 
> *A news like this comes out and you are assuming that USN is broke? Seriously dude.
> 
> You cry OLD each time but you need to realize that Americans have produced steel that is about 3 times stronger than top-of-the-line Chinese steel which Americans have access to in compliance with American IMPORT quality standards. Every country is not producing cheap disposable goods.


I hope they're at least equipped with better sonar systems than their sister Seawolf-class because the USS Connecticut incident was entirely avoidable.

Also, X import != Y export standards. Again, I'm not sure why this comes across as a foreign concept.



LeGenD said:


> I like to do my own homework instead of taking any side's propaganda at face value.
> 
> Every professional military force has built C2 infrastructure to enable network-centric warfare (NCW) but level of complexity can be distinguished on following counts:
> 
> - PCW allows each platform to provide operational updates to the other through the Combat Information Center (CIC).
> 
> - NCW allows each platform to share valuable information in real-time with the other by linking radar systems and CIC across all platforms to produce a Common Operating Picture (COP).
> 
> - CEC is a step up above NCW by allowing all types of sensor systems to be linked to produce relatively rich COP with the element of Central Control (CC) that can automatically decide and assign air defense mission to individual platform.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Analysis of Effectiveness of CEC (Cooperative Engagement Capability) Using Schutzer's C2 Theory
> 
> 
> Information superiority can be obtained by enhancement of the command and control system. While weapon systems may have been developed to a point of decreasing returns regarding firepower, command and control C2 systems can be developed further. The force that has superior C2 may win the fight...
> 
> 
> 
> apps.dtic.mil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 909022
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/figure/CECs-Principal-Functions-Source-The-Cooperative-Engagement-Capability-Johns_fig1_235187469
> 
> 
> 
> In case of aircraft, you are looking at NCW capability much like Link 16.
> 
> Let me show you something:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-15E and F-15EX can have NCW with each other via Link 16 but F-15E will have to depend upon F-15EX to achieve at par COP when both are deployed and used. This does not suggest that F-15E can leverage every sensor system of F-15EX to achieve at par COP but this information exchange will be limited to radar data.
> 
> F-35 can leverage every sensor system of another F-35 to produce excellent COP and reduce its footprint via MADL - this is 5th generation sensor fusion in American terms.
> 
> But the (F-35 - F-35) network level is not CEC because it must involve taking cues from other platforms to produce excellent COP for all of the platforms involved. CEC is enabled by equipment of its own which must be installed in each platform to do the needful and is tied to the NIFC-CA principle of USN.
> 
> Speaking of J-10C, do you think that it can process information at par with J-20 akin to the (F-15EX - F-15EX) network level? Or it will work with J-20 akin to the (F-15E - F-15EX) network level? Or do you think that J-10C can detect and track F-35 in real-time and provide cues to a Type 055 destroyer of PLAN to engage it from considerable distance akin to CEC?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-35, SM-6 Live Fire Test Points to Expansion in Networked Naval Warfare
> 
> 
> An F-35 test with an Aegis Combat System armed with a SM-6 is the latest step how the Navy and Marine Corps will share data on future battlefields.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.usni.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you can understand following statement: _"Those radar systems which can detect F-35 such as Chinese YLC-8E might not be able to track it in real time for long -- F-35 is equipped with state-of-the-art broadband EW capabilities for good reason. Combat tactics is another factor -- F-35 offers unprecedented situational awareness to the pilot who in turn will not wait for the kill chain to establish and work against him but engage and destroy valuable targets at earliest opportunity. If this is not possible then F-35 can be used to illuminate YLC-8E among other radar systems on the surface for the USN to take out with a barrage of Tomahawks. The benefits of CEC are boundless. Radar systems on the surface are vulnerable to decapitating strikes but airborne platforms like E-2D can survive with air escort. You might have faith in A2/AD systems like HQ-9 but virtually nothing could stop a volley of Tomahawks from approaching desired targets in conflicts around the world and these cruise missiles are kept up to date."_
> 
> PLAN might have developed CEC of its own but I do not recall any demonstrations from PLAN to this effect.


The difficulty in understanding China's capabilities is they keep their cards close to the chest and the stuff that's publicly available is most likely approved for commercial viewing/purchase (Zhuhai airshow). Most OSINT communities outside the firewall and language barrier understands this and have come to terms with it. Equipment such as electronics even more so considering the test results are closely guarded secrets.

I think it's reasonable to extol the capabilities of the US with their widely publicised data without casting doubt on others. You don't necessarily have to believe in China but I think it's similarly dishonest to doubt them considering the lack of data available.



LeGenD said:


> PLAN has yet to show that it can shoot down an ASBM let alone CEC. When PLAN will demonstrate these experiments much like USN then WE can talk.


They conducted an anti-ballistic missile test last June iirc.



LeGenD said:


> See above and tell me.
> 
> J-20 has relatively different shaping than F-35 and its effects are pointed out at length in following link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J-20 Radar scattering simulation
> 
> 
> Introduction J-20 is the world’s third operational fifth-generation stealth fighter aircraft after the F-22 and F-35. It made China the second country in the world af…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And what about J-20 RAM application? How capable it is?
> 
> I could find following:
> 
> _In this article, a multifunctional and tunable radar absorber which can achieve dynamical modulation of absorbing frequency, bandwidth, and amplitude is presented. Such a tunable radar absorber is composed of a graphene capacitor layer and an active metasurface layer. By controlling the impedance characteristic of each layer through the external bias voltages, the absorber not only can achieve the ultrawideband electromagnetic (EM) absorbing performance, but also can be switched to a narrowband absorption mode, and its absorption amplitude can be further adjusted at each of the above operation modes. Both simulated and experimental results have demonstrated that the −10-dB reflection bandwidth ranging from 3.55 to 19.6 GHz can be realized, and the average reflection amplitude can be dynamically tuned between −3.8 and −11.5 dB. In addition, by changing the bias voltages, the absorber can also, respectively, switch its −10 dB reflection bandwidth to 3.5−11.1 GHz and 10.9−18.9 GHz, where the larger dynamic range of amplitude modulation is obtained. The equivalent circuit model is employed to explain the tunable absorption mechanism by analyzing the impedance matching characteristics. This hybrid design approach can effectively expand the EM reconfigurable functionalities of the current tunable absorber, which may further open a novel way of the graphene application in microwave frequencies._
> 
> 
> 
> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/admt.202001050
> 
> 
> 
> This RAM application allows J-20 to deflect and absorb radar waves across frequency bands ranging from S to Ku.
> 
> View attachment 909023
> 
> 
> J-20 seems to be a well-equipped jet fighter and posit a significant threat to any adversary in theory but China is still learning the craft and you are expecting too much from your FIRST attempt at creating a VLO aircraft. You seem to have no clue about American advances in stealthy applications and technologies.
> 
> Yes, I am aware of USAF using F-35 to simulate RCS of J-20 - this is the LOGICAL on its part. F-35 allows USAF to simulate RCS of upcoming J-35 as well. What you see in this case is the advantage of having a significant headstart in the domain of stealth sciences.


The radar scattering simulation has been thrown around quite a lot in miltech communities, evidently for good reasons in the absence of accurate data. However, I caution taking the study authoritatively given its limitations in modelling w/o involving 3D scanning of their aerodynamic flight profiles. Every nook and cranny missed could potentially return a higher/lower signal and that's not even considering the RAM used, as you rightly pointed out.

A common view of the Su-57 for instance, is its incredibly high radar cross-section (RCS) relative to the other 3 stealth fighters (F22/F35/J20). The figures often quoted are *0.1m² - 1.0m² *(comparable to a "clean" Super Hornet apparently) according to Sukhoi's patent but similarly, research on F22 also yielded the same results with spikes above those [at 0° front to 85° to 180° back maximum of 5m² & 275°] and other angles reflecting less than those [between 30°-60° degrees and 300°-330° less than 0.01m²]. We haven't even begun discussing inlet profiles and thrust nozzles that may further affect the stealth returns.

On the subject of RAM, there's been numerous speculation that China first got its hands on a piece of F-117 wreckage in Serbia and again, during the hunt for Osama with the tail wreckage of a modified stealth Black Hawk helo used for the op (thanks to Pakistan's assistance ). While metallurgy advancements certainly require a high degree of expertise, surely it isn't an impossible feat to catch up with the US?

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## ZeEa5KPul

NooriNuth said:


> So going back to WS-10B thrust.
> It's 70kn dry and 144kn wet?
> Compared to F-16 engine. The dry thrust is lower than F-16 but wet is much higher.
> Don't know if ots good or bad.
> 
> EDIT :
> Just read wiki ( Yeah I know).
> TWR of F-16 is still better than J-10C.
> Despite J-10c having a more powerful engine, the aircraft also happens to ne heavier than Eff Soola.


It's 90kN dry and 144kN with afterburner, and wikipedia is trash.

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## Deino



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

K/JDC03A laser designator on a 10C of PLAAF.

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## White privilege

Deino said:


> View attachment 909378


Let's see if some one comes up with a _"Dracarys" _patch ....

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## Riz

Boys with AHMDS

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## Ali_Baba

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


>



The original of that photo in full 4K resolution or QHD would be fantastic - they go to all that effort of taking what is actually a good picture - and gimp it by using a lower-res and overly cropped version of it ( sigh ).

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## ghazi52

.,,.,.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1611279471134269441

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## ghazi52

,...,..,






One of J10-C of Pakistan Airforce at Minhas Airbase, Kamra....

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## SQ8

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> K/JDC03A laser designator on a 10C of PLAAF.


Doesn’t look like a PAF example from this angle and lighting


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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Armed with Anti Ship missiles!

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## NooriNuth

Riz said:


> Boys with AHMDS
> 
> View attachment 910134
> 
> 
> View attachment 910135


Their physical fitness looks sub par, with bellies and body fat.
But still lucky sods , flying that thing.



SQ8 said:


> Doesn’t look like a PAF example from this angle and lighting


The post you quoted says PLAAF, not PAF.

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## SQ8

NooriNuth said:


> Their physical fitness looks sub par, with bellies and body fat.
> But still lucky sods , flying that thing.
> 
> 
> The post you quoted says PLAAF, not PAF.


My mistake then - but also not relevant as such to the PAF specific thread

Also, how many layers over their suits do you think they have? 
Those are not bellies but the layer of the G-suit.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF J-10C (22-102) at Chengdu Aircraft production facility in China.

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## m52k85

NooriNuth said:


> Their physical fitness looks sub par, with bellies and body fat.
> But still lucky sods , flying that thing.
> 
> 
> The post you quoted says PLAAF, not PAF.


Today's fighter pilots need to be more 'nerd' than 'hotshot', I suspect it will soon come back to as it was before when 5th/6th Gens will have no option but to go into a knife fight against each other.


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## PakFactor

NooriNuth said:


> Their physical fitness looks sub par, with bellies and body fat.
> But still lucky sods , flying that thing.
> 
> 
> The post you quoted says PLAAF, not PAF.



They look excellent; their puffy clothing makes them look a little plump. But, overall, they look better than 199,999,999 Pakistanis roaming the street.


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## syed_yusuf

m52k85 said:


> Today's fighter pilots need to be more 'nerd' than 'hotshot', I suspect it will soon come back to as it was before when 5th/6th Gens will have no option but to go into a knife fight against each other.


i believe that too, as with 5th/6th gen technology, long range engagement will be problematic. even today if f-22 / f-35 go against j-20 it will be a dog fight


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF J10C from the First Batch

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Unmarked Dragon!

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