# India | A Democracy Soaked In Blood.



## Kompromat

*Indias Blood-Stained Democracy​*
By MIRZA WAHEED
Published: July 6, 2012 








*LAST September, a lawmaker in Indian-controlled Kashmir stood up in the states legislative assembly and spoke of a valley filled with human carcasses near his home constituency in the mountains: In our area, there are big gorges, where there are the bones of several hundred people who were eaten by crows.*

I read about this in faraway London and was filled with a chill  I had written of a similar valley, a fictional one, in my novel about the lost boys of Kashmir. The assembly was debating a report on the uncovering of more than 2,000 unmarked and mass graves not far from the Line of Control that divides Indian- and Pakistani-controlled Kashmir. The report, by Indias government-appointed State Human Rights Commission, marked the first official acknowledgment of the presence of mass graves. More significantly, the report found that civilians, potentially the victims of extrajudicial killings, may be buried at some of the sites.

Corpses were brought in by the truckload and buried on an industrial scale. The report cataloged 2,156 bullet-riddled bodies found in mountain graves and called for an inquiry to identify them. Many were men described as unidentified militants killed in fighting with soldiers during the armed rebellion against Indian rule during the 1990s, but according to the report, more than 500 were local residents. There is every probability, the report concluded, that the graves might contain the dead bodies of enforced disappearances, a euphemism for people who have been detained, abducted, taken away by armed forces or the police, often without charge or conviction, and never seen again.

Had the graves been found under Col. Muammar el-Qaddafis compound in Libya or in the rubble of Homs in Syria, there surely would have been an uproar. But when over 2,000 skeletons appear in the conflict-ridden backyard of the worlds largest democracy, no one bats an eye. While the West proselytizes democracy and respect for human rights, sometimes going so far as to cheerlead cavalier military interventions to remove repressive regimes, how can it reconcile its humanitarianism with such brazen disregard for the right to life in Kashmir? Have we come to accept that there are different benchmarks for justice in democracies and autocracies? Are mass graves unearthed in democratic India somehow less offensive?

The Indian government has long been intransigent on the issue of Kashmir  preferring to blame Pakistan for fomenting violence rather than address Kashmiris legitimate aspirations for freedom or honor its own promises to resolve the issue according to the wishes of Kashmiri people and investigate the crimes of its army. And almost a year after the human rights commission issued its report on mass graves, the Indian state continues to remain indifferent to evidence of possible crimes against humanity. As a believer in a moral universe, I expected better. But it is an all too familiar pattern.

In March 2000, a day before President Bill Clinton visited India, about 35 Kashmiri Sikhs were massacred by unidentified gunmen in the village of Chattisinghpora, 50 miles from the Kashmiri capital, Srinagar. Soon after, L. K. Advani, then Indias home minister, declared that the terrorists responsible for the killings had been shot dead in an encounter with the Indian Army. But the truth turned out to be more sinister. Under pressure from human rights groups and relatives, the bodies of the so-called terrorists were exhumed, and after a couple of botched investigations in which DNA samples were fudged, it was revealed that the dead men were innocent Kashmiris.

It took nearly 12 years  primarily because of the Indian governments refusal to prosecute those involved in the murders  to reach the Supreme Court of India. On May 1, in a widely criticized decision, the court left it to the army to decide how to proceed, and the army has opted for a court-martial rather than a transparent civilian trial. In the eyes of Pervez Imroz, a Kashmiri lawyer and civil rights activist, the courts decision further emboldens the security forces and strengthens a process that has appeared to never favor the victims.

But the victims have not forgotten Kashmirs estimated 8,000 disappeared. Perhaps the most telling reminder is the women who stage a symbolic protest every month in a Srinagar park like the Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo in Buenos Aires, who protested weekly after their children became desaparecidos under the Argentine dictatorship of 1976-83. Each woman wears a headband bearing a blank photo  steadfastly refusing to forget in the face of the Indian governments callous and immoral indifference.

IN the long and bloody narrative of Indias injustices in Kashmir, there come seasons that are etched in the public consciousness as collective epitaphs of mourning and loss. In the summer of 2010, there was a mass uprising against Indian rule in Kashmir  an Arab Spring before the Arab Spring.

It came after police killed a teenager; thousands of people came out into the streets across Kashmir. The Indian paramilitary forces and police yet again reacted with brute force, keeping the region under virtual siege for over two months and killing 120 people, many of them teenagers. The youngest, Sameer Rah, not even 10, was beaten to death by irate paramilitaries. The provincial government promised speedy justice. But once again, no one has been charged with these killings, let alone convicted of them.

The Indian government must do what may seem inconceivable to the hawks in the military establishment but is long overdue. Before it can even begin to contemplate negotiating a lasting political solution in consultation with Kashmiris it must act to deliver justice  for the parents of the disappeared; for the young lives brutally extinguished in 2010; for the innocent dead stealthily buried in unmarked graves in the mountains; for the Kashmiris languishing in Indian prisons without any legal recourse; for the exiled Kashmiri Hindu Pandits who fled in 1990 after some were targeted and killed by militants; and for the mother of Sameer Rah, who still doesnt know why her young son was bludgeoned to death and his body left by a curb.
 
A journalist and the author of the novel The Collaborator.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/08/opinion/sunday/indias-blood-stained-democracy.html

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## Jade

Whatever...Kashmir belongs to India. Period.

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## Dance

Already posted:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/193025-india-s-blood-stained-democracy.html

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## Kompromat

Please merge.



Jade said:


> Whatever...Kashmir belongs to India. Period.



We will change it to belonge*D*


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## Jade

Aeronaut said:


> Please merge.
> 
> 
> 
> We will change it to belonge*D*



hehe...what have you been doing since last 65 years?

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## Jade

Aeronaut said:


> Please merge.
> 
> 
> 
> We will change it to belonge*D*



hehe...what have you been doing since last 65 years? Sleeping? It seems your nation is characterized by "Big Talk No Action"

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## DesiGuy

Jade said:


> hehe...what have you been doing since last 65 years?



That's a million dollar question!

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## Ticker

By: Khan A. Sufyan
July 12, 2012

_We arrived in Darzo (Mizoram, India) about ten in the morning. My orders were to get the villagers to collect whatever moveable property they could, and set their own village on fire at seven in the evening.

Night fell, I lit a torch myself and set fire to one of the houses. I knew I was carrying out orders, and would hate to do such a thing if I had my way. My soldiers also started torching other buildings, and the whole place was soon ablaze. Women were wailing and shouting and cursing. Children were frightened and cried. But the grown men were silent; not a whimper or a whisper from them. When it was time for the world to sleep, we marched out of Darzo .

We walked fifteen miles and the morning saw us in Hnahthial. I hated myself that night. I had done the job of an executioner. I called the Darzo Village Council President and his village elders and ordered them to sign a document saying that they had voluntarily asked to be resettled under the protection of the Security Forces as they were being harassed by the insurgents and that no force or coercion was used by the Security Forces.

They refused to sign. So I called them in one man at a time. On my table was a loaded revolver, and in the corner stood two NCOs with loaded sten-guns. This frightened them, and one by one they signed the documents.

(Lalkhama 2006. A Mizo Civil Servants Random Reflections. Ghazaibad:
Express Print House, pp.177-180)​_
In September 2011, state assembly of Indian Occupied Kashmir (IOK) debated a report which uncovered presence of more than 2,000 unmarked mass graves not far from the Line of Control that divides Pakistan from IOK. The report, by Indian government appointed State Human Rights Commission, also issued its first official acknowledgment of the presence of these mass graves.
Such incidents have not only been reported from IOK but many other parts of India. The atrocities committed to counter many ongoing insurgencies in the name of democratic Union of India are wide-spread, horrendous and shameful, yet only a handful of the perpetrators has ever been brought to justice.

India has been able to bring some of these insurgencies under a measure of control. Yet the wanton atrocities committed by Indian security forces and the coercive manipulation of democratic process probably has been some of the major causes why India houses one of the largest number of freedom movements and secessionist groups, insurgencies and extremist groups and in any one country in the world. Currently, there are around 140 such known groups operating in 28 Indian States and 7 Union Territories.

There are parts of India where diverse set of freedom movement groups run their own independent governments, collect taxes, maintain functional bureaucratic institutions, judiciary and maintain well organized regular and trained armies. On 30 June 2012, the Army of Government of Peoples Republic of Nagaland held an openly announced passing out parade of a batch of officers at their military base Khehoi, merely 40 kilometers from Rangapahar, Dimapur. Rangapahar is the Headquarters of Indian Army 3 Corps and is a big cantonment also housing large Para-military force nearby. Yet the Indian Army and other security apparatus did not have the courage to establish the writ of Indian government.

Over 120 Indian Army battalions and over 250 para-military battalions are deployed in Occupied Kashmir. Close to 70 Indian Army battalions and over 220 para-military battalions are deployed in North East of India. Over 80 para-military battalions are also deployed in the rest of India to combat insurgencies. These forces have committed massive human rights violations. They are protected under the law, particularly the Armed Forces Special Power Act (AFSPA) for protection of Indian Army, giving it blanket cover for killing or torturing anyone.

Does anybody in the so-called civilized world know that a lady known by the name of Irom Sharmila Chanu, also known as the Iron Lady of Manipur, has been on hunger strike for the past 12 years and is being force-fed. She went on a hunger strike on 4 November 2000 in an effort to have the Government of India withdraw AFSPA from Manipur and other parts of India.

India has always blamed her neighbors, mainly Pakistan for presence of such a large number of secessionist groups. However, according to Indian media sources only 32 such groups operate in IOK, presence of which is conveniently blamed on Pakistan. Large majority of the IOK populace however blame oppression of Indian Security Forces in the killings of over 100,000 Kashmiri people. Bulk of the remaining groups around 72 in number operate in the North East of India, while the remaining are spread over the rest of Indian territory. Overall, around 30-40 percent of Indian territory has been inflicted by freedom movements and insurgencies due to un-equal treatment meted out to the local populace and atrocities committed by Indian Security Forces, who are protected by law through manipulation of democratic institutions.

In addition to this, Naxalite movement alone has spread to over 40 percent of India and is fast getting out of hand. These are poor people who have risen up in arms against a manipulative democratic dispensation in which the rich are getting richer and the poor getting poorer without any future. Even with oppressive application of large number of security forces, India is clearly losing her writ on almost 50 percent of its territory.

The neo-colonial attitude followed by Indian political elite has further exacerbated the dichotomies present in the democratic and political dispensation meted out to the population at large. Their indifferent internal economic policies sustained through oppressive application of security strategies kept hidden from the world at large through adroit media handling in order to achieve some unattainable foreign policy precepts may lead to undesirable consequences. The blind followers of Indianized Kingdom or Indianization through attempted assimilation of neo-colonial cultural fail to understand that US achieved the objectives of its state-hood as a result of a civil war in 1860s.

India apparently is fast approaching this red line, where these freedom movements and insurgencies may result in internecine civil wars in different parts of India. In their ambition to undo the 1947 partition of India, the Indian neo-colonial dispensators may further fuel the disintegration of India through a democracy soaked in blood of her own people.

Link: India: Democracy Soaked In Blood Of Her Own People - OpEd Eurasia Review

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## Nassr

India not only follows the neo-colonial attitude towards her own people, she follows this coercive policy towards her neighbours as well. And rightly pointed out that in an endavour to undo the freedom we received in 1947, India by hurting her own people is edging towards disintegration. The number of freedom movements and secessionist groups in India surprise me as I don't think any other country in the world would have so many such groups. The neo-colonial governance system followed by Indian political elite and so-called Brahmanic elite in all likelihood would damage India beyond relief.


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## livingdead

Nassr said:


> India not only follows the neo-colonial attitude towards her own people, she follows this coercive policy towards her neighbours as well. And rightly pointed out that in an endavour to undo the freedom we received in 1947, India by hurting her own people is edging towards disintegration. The number of freedom movements and secessionist groups in India surprise me as I don't think any other country in the world would have so many such groups. The neo-colonial governance system followed by Indian political elite and so-called Brahmanic elite in all likelihood would damage India beyond relief.


Well, the number of such movement was quite high during early period but has gone down a lot due to democracy and federalism. 
Previously too much power was centered at delhi but now state capitals are the centres of power. With more devaluation of power to villages, such movements will go down.

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## Gandhi G in da house

This article = Unabashedly Biased crap 

The conclusion of the article= Wishful thinking since 65 years and running

Most of these so called 140 geoups have already surrendered and many of them have not more than 50-100 members. Hardly anything lethal about them .

Check out SATP.org , insurgency violence particularly in Kashmir Valley and North-East has gone drastically in the last few years .

In fact , in the North East there is hardly any serious , worth its salt insurgency or so called freedom movement left .

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## Nassr

hinduguy said:


> Well, the number of such movement was quite high during early period but has gone down a lot due to democracy and federalism.
> Previously too much power was centered at delhi but now state capitals are the centres of power. With more devaluation of power to villages, such movements will go down.



Sir, I don't think it has gone down. Conversely It has increased manifold over a period of years and the Indian media acknowledges it. In my personal opinion, it is this very attitude (chiragh talay andhera) which exacerbates the problems within India. Indians do not want to believe that such a problem exists.


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## kurup

Written by *Khan A. Sufyan* is a* Lahore-based* defence analyst....

Enough said .........

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## Nassr

nick_indian said:


> This article = Unabashedly Biased crap
> 
> The conclusion of the article= Wishful thinking since 65 years and running
> 
> Most of these so called 140 geoups have already surrendered and many of them have not more than 50-100 members. Hardly anything lethal about them .
> 
> Check out SATP.org , insurgency violence particularly in Kashmir Valley and North-East has gone drastically in the last few years .
> 
> In fact , in the North East there is hardly any serious , worth its salt insurgency or so called freedom movement left .




Sir, I urge you to go to SATP.org again and you may like to count the number of such groups operating in Indian states. I think even you will be surprised. This site is operated by Mr. IPS Gill, whom the Sikhs term as the "Butcher of Indian Held Punjab". Therefore the voracity of his citations with regard to these groups can not be questioned - even you quote it. 

Like I said this is the problem with most of Indians, they just don't want to believe that such a problem exists.

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## Gandhi G in da house

Nassr said:


> Sir, I urge you to go to SATP.org again and you may like to count the number of such groups operating in Indian states. I think even you will be surprised. This site is operated by Mr. IPS Gill, whom the Sikhs term as the "Butcher of Indian Held Punjab". Therefore the voracity of his citations with regard to these groups can not be questioned - even you quote it.
> 
> Like I said this is the problem with most of Indians, they just don't want to believe that such a problem exists.



This is the problem with Pakistanis . The concept of logic is difficult to grasp . You want me to check the number of groups operating in India from SATP.org because they are a great number but when the same site shows consistently declining violence in India then I should not believe it since it is run by KPS Gill 

Indians understand that such problems exist and that is the very reason we have been handling it and the country is still one .We are not the kind of people who remain in denial about our problems and issues . For this very reason we have not been divided yet and won't be in the forseeable future .

I would suggest you to look at your own country where in every part except Punjab there is a separatist movement before Pakistan turns into Punjabistan .

There is reason why international community calls Pakistan as 'Denialistan' and not India.

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## Nassr

nick_indian said:


> This is the problem with Pakistanis . The concept of logic is difficult to grasp . You want me to check the number of groups operating in India from SATP.org because they are a great number but when the same site shows consistently declining violence in India then I should not believe it since it is run by KPS Gill
> 
> Indians understand that such problems exist and that is the very reason we have been handling it and the country is still one .We are not the kind of people who remain in denial about our problems and issues . For this very reason we have not been divided yet and won't be in the forseeable future .
> 
> I would suggest you to look at your own country where in every part except Punjab there is a separatist movement before Pakistan turns into Punjabistan .
> 
> There is reason why international community calls Pakistan as 'Denialistan' and not India.



Sir, The stats on violence in India keeps on going up and down and may have declined as we speak. This is exactly what the author is trying to probably convey - the brutalities committed by Indian security forces may bring the violence down but has it cooled the feelings of people brutalised - I think it has resulted in increase of anti-India feelings manifold. And it is this very thing that you people need to understand. 

Blaming others for your own mistakes does not hide the true picture.

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## Jinx1

Nassr said:


> Sir, The stats on violence in India keeps on going up and down and may have declined as we speak. This is exactly what the author is trying to probably convey - the brutalities committed by Indian security forces may bring the violence down but has it cooled the feelings of people brutalised - I think it has resulted in increase of anti-India feelings manifold. And it is this very thing that you people need to understand.
> 
> Blaming others for your own mistakes does not hide the true picture.




On the ***. The violence can be controlled but the hatred can not subside through the use of torture. It is this use of torture by Indian security forces which further fuel this hatred. Indians are still saying that everything is honky-dory, whereas the reality is that close to 50 percent of India effected by these freedom movements. Surprising that they still can not see the danger it poses to their country and continue to blame others.


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## livingdead

Nassr said:


> Sir, I don't think it has gone down. Conversely It has increased manifold over a period of years and the Indian media acknowledges it. In my personal opinion, it is this very attitude (chiragh talay andhera) which exacerbates the problems within India. Indians do not want to believe that such a problem exists.


Well, may be because I never lived in those areas.(kashmir/north east) Many such disturbed areas do not have any disturbance anymore. Govt has negotiated with many parties in north east and talk is going on. 
I have lived in so called naxal areas, it is not how it seems in news. Kashmir and north east is different but more or less under control now. Remember how there used to be bomb blast every so often in India? Does it happen now?
Many of these fighers have entered into politics or have got their demand met already.

Record number of Indians visiting kashmir this summer, I dont think people will visit disturbed areas for having fun. I have been to kashmir too, they are quite welcoming people.



Jinx1 said:


> On the ***. The violence can be controlled but the hatred can not subside through the use of torture. It is this use of torture by Indian security forces which further fuel this hatred. Indians are still saying that everything is honky-dory, whereas the reality is that close to 50 percent of India effected by these freedom movements. Surprising that they still can not see the danger it poses to their country and continue to blame others.


Everything is not okey, but it is definitely better than what it used to be. And yes, I will give pakistan credit for reduction in violence in J&K.

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## notsuperstitious

Jinx1 said:


> On the ***. The violence can be controlled but the hatred can not subside through the use of torture. It is this use of torture by Indian security forces which further fuel this hatred. Indians are still saying that everything is honky-dory, whereas the reality is that close to 50 percent of India effected by these freedom movements. Surprising that they still can not see the danger it poses to their country and continue to blame others.



You are talking through your behind.

Kashmir and north east most of the locally based groups have either surrendered or signed cease fire and in talks with the government. In some cases even final agreements of settlement have been signed.

The hatred and torture is in your trained and pre conditioned mind. Thanks for the preview, but its very predictable and boring.

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## Mysterious

Jinx1 said:


> On the ***. The violence can be controlled but the hatred can not subside through the use of torture. It is this use of torture by Indian security forces which further fuel this hatred. Indians are still saying that everything is honky-dory, whereas the reality is that close to 50 percent of India effected by these freedom movements. Surprising that they still can not see the danger it poses to their country and continue to blame others.



whenever some group gets banned and accounts got freeze they simply change their name and keep on creating new group with different name but with same people...that's why number of group is so high......


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## jha

Oh yes... Soaked with blood of our own people... Another one of wishful article for local consumption.

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## Gandhi G in da house

Jinx1 said:


> On the ***. The violence can be controlled but the hatred can not subside through the use of torture. It is this use of torture by Indian security forces which further fuel this hatred. Indians are still saying that everything is honky-dory, *whereas the reality is that close to 50 percent of India effected by these freedom movements*. Surprising that they still can not see the danger it poses to their country and continue to blame others.





Where do these guys come from ?

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## jha

nick_indian said:


> Where do these guys come from ?



Mars ... Where else would Martians come from..? 
Another factory in our neighbourhood is not running at full potential. They are barely producing enough Martians for local consumption...

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## INDIC

Mizo insurgency died in 1986 with peace treaty and here we have another bullshit in 2012.

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## notsuperstitious

nick_indian said:


> Where do these guys come from ?



Its a place called Iwannafeelgoodaboutmyplightistan!

The citizens are well trained and post the same stuff over and over again without the law of diminishing returns coming into play.

BTW thanks for bringing up the Mizo problem that was settled only 26 years ago, the interference of Pakistan in that internal issue that did not affect them waaay before 1971 is a good slap square in the face for those desperately re writing the 1971 history.

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## Tinu

Deleted.
Posted afresh with map later.


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## Gandhi G in da house

Tinu said:


> The Indian make believers have launched a counter offensive against an appropriate and well written piece. Woha guys, hold your horses.
> 
> This is a map from Indian favourite Terrorism | South Asia Terrorism Portal. Show me a place which is free from insurgencies. Oh yeah ..... Gujarat. But who needs insurgency in Gujarat where the great terrorist Modi governs himself and burns Muslims.



Earlier he was talking about freedom movements , now he switched to insurgencies . Richard Clarke got it so right

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## Tinu

The Indian make believers have launched a counter offensive against an appropriate and well written piece. Woha guys, hold your horses.

This is a map from Indian favourite satp.org. Show me a place which is free from insurgencies. Oh yeah ..... Gujarat. But who needs insurgency in Gujarat where the great terrorist Modi governs himself and burns Muslims.

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## vK_man

Tinu said:


> The Indian make believers have launched a counter offensive against an appropriate and well written piece. Woha guys, hold your horses.
> 
> This is a map from Indian favourite satp.org. Show me a place which is free from insurgencies. Oh yeah ..... Gujarat. But who needs insurgency in Gujarat where the great terrorist Modi governs himself and burns Muslims.



The piece is well written indeed.India's current growth model is very problematic and corrupt thanks to western corporate control and subversion by foreign western agencies.But the situation is similiar in Pakistan. The only movement indigenous in origin is the naxal movement which is due to the utterly worthless mining policies of the govt.


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## Tinu

vK_man said:


> The piece is well written indeed.India's current growth model is very problematic and corrupt thanks to western corporate control and subversion by foreign western agencies.But the situation is similiar in Pakistan. The only movement indigenous in origin is the naxal movement which is due to the utterly worthless mining policies of the govt.



Oh come on guys. The map above heads India: Chronic Conflict - and this says all. The current growth in India is only in limited areas and not in most of India where millions languish below poverty line. And this poverty line (Indian Rupee/dollar equivalent) is lowered officially every now and then to fool Indians and the world. The OpEd indicates the unequal economic dispensation - and this is the cause. 

If you think that Naxal is the only indigenous movement then where did 140 others come from. Oh-Yeah ..... the neighbours are responsible. As if India's neighbours have nothing else to do and raise freedom movements and insurgencies in India. WOW - paranoid aren't you guys. Wake up and understand that you people have a major problem at hand. Stop your brave soldiers from killing and torturing your own before the curtains are drawn for your shining India.

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## notsuperstitious

Curtains for India is good news for Pakistani fanbois. Yet this fanboi is so concerned. He should be happy that the hundreds of millions of poor people will be free finally and the brahminical system will break apart and the social reform started by Mohammed Bin Qasim the emancipator millennium ago will be fulfilled. The fanboi should be ecstatic.

But he is not.

Does not compute.


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## vK_man

Tinu said:


> Oh come on guys. The map above heads India: Chronic Conflict - and this says all. The current growth in India is only in limited areas and not in most of India where millions languish below poverty line. And this poverty line (Indian Rupee/dollar equivalent) is lowered officially every now and then to fool Indians and the world. The OpEd indicates the unequal economic dispensation - and this is the cause.
> 
> If you think that Naxal is the only indigenous movement then where did 140 others come from. Oh-Yeah ..... the neighbours are responsible. As if India's neighbours have nothing else to do and raise freedom movements and insurgencies in India. WOW - paranoid aren't you guys. Wake up and understand that you people have a major problem at hand. Stop your brave soldiers from killing and torturing your own before the curtains are drawn for your shining India.


 
Other zones do not have insurgencies comparable to the naxal rebellion nor that kind of popularity.I am not paranoid or kneejerk type either.


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## Tinu

Pakistan is a cradle of Indus Civilization. Over a period of centuries, this mass of territory was occupied by people who followed different religions at different times, from Hindus to Buddhists and now Muslims. This mass of territory is geographically an independent entity which was completely separate from the rest of South Asia, part of which is now India. 

The Indians think that they lost their identity with the loss of ares bounded within Indus Civilization. To find an identity, the Ganges Civilization was later invented by them which cradled Gangetic planes. Besides the Indus Civilization Areas the rest of what now is called India is essentially a forced amalgamation of three separate areas inhabited by completely different set of terrain and people i.e. East, South and Central India. These three set of different entities are likely to succeed from the now so-called forced-entity India. It will happen sooner than later. 

What Pakistan occupies now is an independent and separate geographical entity with some areas being manipulatively taken away at the time of independence. We are the current holders of Indus Civilization and any major changes to such a geographical entity takes centuries to evolve. 

India being an un-natural geographical forced-entity will take much less time to breakup. Many renowned contemporary scholars agree with this outcome.

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## oFFbEAT

.
.
Pakistanis suffers from identity crisis all the time......they even claim a non-Islamic civilization their own....despite the fact that their forefathers destroyed the civilization....what hypocrisy..


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## Tinu

oFFbEAT said:


> .
> .
> Pakistanis suffers from identity crisis all the time......they even claim a non-Islamic civilization their own....despite the fact that their forefathers destroyed the civilization....what hypocrisy..



Like it or not, you will always remain off-beat as your identity has been lost for good and you will continue fighting and killing your own people to keep India united. However, the unity that you Indians seek in diversity will not unite different entities of what you call India.

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## oFFbEAT

^^^^The fact is, if you're hostile towards Hindus and Buddhists, you cannot claim the heritage of the Indus Valley Civilization.....

You cannot claim the heritage of the people your forefathers killed.....if you do so, then you're a hypocrite......as simple as that....


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## Jinx1

Tinu said:


> Pakistan is a cradle of Indus Civilization. Over a period of centuries, this mass of territory was occupied by people who followed different religions at different times, from Hindus to Buddhists and now Muslims. This mass of territory is geographically an independent entity which was completely separate from the rest of South Asia, part of which is now India.
> 
> The Indians think that they lost their identity with the loss of ares bounded within Indus Civilization. To find an identity, the Ganges Civilization was later invented by them which cradled Gangetic planes. Besides the Indus Civilization Areas the rest of what now is called India is essentially a forced amalgamation of three separate areas inhabited by completely different set of terrain and people i.e. East, South and Central India. These three set of different entities are likely to succeed from the now so-called forced-entity India. It will happen sooner than later.
> 
> What Pakistan occupies now is an independent and separate geographical entity with some areas being manipulatively taken away at the time of independence. We are the current holders of Indus Civilization and any major changes to such a geographical entity takes centuries to evolve.
> 
> India being an un-natural geographical forced-entity will take much less time to breakup. Many renowned contemporary scholars agree with this outcome.



Very good explanation Tinu. Good yaar.


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## vK_man

Tinu said:


> Pakistan is a cradle of Indus Civilization. Over a period of centuries, this mass of territory was occupied by people who followed different religions at different times, from Hindus to Buddhists and now Muslims. This mass of territory is geographically an independent entity which was completely separate from the rest of South Asia, part of which is now India.
> 
> The Indians think that they lost their identity with the loss of ares bounded within Indus Civilization. To find an identity, the Ganges Civilization was later invented by them which cradled Gangetic planes. Besides the Indus Civilization Areas the rest of what now is called India is essentially a forced amalgamation of three separate areas inhabited by completely different set of terrain and people i.e. East, South and Central India. These three set of different entities are likely to succeed from the now so-called forced-entity India. It will happen sooner than later.
> 
> What Pakistan occupies now is an independent and separate geographical entity with some areas being manipulatively taken away at the time of independence. We are the current holders of Indus Civilization and any major changes to such a geographical entity takes centuries to evolve.
> 
> India being an un-natural geographical forced-entity will take much less time to breakup. Many renowned contemporary scholars agree with this outcome.



What if I said Soviet archaeological findings indicate that Indo-harrappan-ganges civilisation is way older.more than 10000 years and believe that they were destroyed in an ancient nuclear war? I am more on the conspirological side.Not the fanboy flame war type .



Tinu said:


> India being an un-natural geographical forced-entity will take much less time to breakup. Many renowned contemporary scholars agree with this outcome.



What if I said that committee of 300 targets you for destruction first then India.NATO is successfully destabilising Pakistan.


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## DARIUS

Tinu said:


> Like it or not, you will always remain off-beat as your identity has been lost for good and you will continue fighting and killing your own people to keep India united. However, the unity that you Indians seek in diversity will not unite different entities of what you call India.


U are talking as if the so called Muslim ummah in your country are sparing the Ahmedia's and the Ismaeli's or the Muhajir's!!Leave them aside,u people are killing each other each and every single day.Come out of ur delusional state of mind for once mate. . . . Once Pakistan manages to survive it's current fate u guy's will have enough time to worry about India.So for the time being focus on ur internal issues!Arent the Pakistani Talibans killing 100's of their Muslim brothers every single day.And as far as India is concerned its a land of *huge *diversity.We in our country have a conglomeration of every existing faith on earth. . . u just name it,Jews,Christians,Muslims,Parsees,Bahai's. . . and what not!!Given these sensational paradoxes it is but quite natural for us to have dissimilarities in mind set's and petty disputes now and then which BTW we are capable of managing pretty well all by ourselves!But ur Quiad-e-Azam M.A. Jinnah laid the foundation stone of ur great nation on the basis of Islam alone so that no innocent Muslim blood is ever spilled(Which I am totally in support of)!!Then why are Pakistanis killed on a regular basis??Why are ur politicians* just like our's *looting the nation of it's wealth,why is ur Islamic Army going out of bound's to destabilize the democratically elected Govt.?Why is Pakistan counted amongst the top most failed states??What did ull do to ur Eastern brother's?Do u have any answer?Now please do not give me all that conspiracy crap propagated by lunatic's like Mr.Zaid Hamid. . . So u see instead of bashing us make straight ur own state!!And lastly I am hearing rumors about the US planning to intervene in Balochistan,if situations in India had been that bad escpecially on the HR issue the world would have treated India in the same way,so why aren't they doing anything,if I go by ur views that *"no one gives a damn about India" *then there's all the more reason for the international community to intervene cause India according to u is a petty nation like Pakistan.So why this biased approach.A Pakistani would ordinarily respond by saying,"It's a Hindu-Zionist conspiracy against the Islamic world"!!If that had been the reality my friend then the same fate would have been shared by the U.A.E.,Saudi Arab,Indonesia,Brunei,Turkey(which BTW is a NATO member state and heavily involved in Afghanistan)and all such Muslim Nation's!!But its not so. . . So kindly stop worrying about India and get a life!!

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## oFFbEAT

^^^^good point.....


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## Jinx1

vK_man said:


> What if I said Soviet archaeological findings indicate that Indo-harrappan-ganges civilisation is way older.more than 10000 years and believe that they were destroyed in an ancient nuclear war? I am more on the conspirological side.Not the fanboy flame war type .



Yeah yeah yeah ...... What if I tell you that there is no Soviet Union now. I will be telling the truth. You need to open your eyes and wake up from sleep sir. 




vK_man said:


> What if I said that committee of 300 targets you for destruction first then India.NATO is successfully destabilising Pakistan.



Sir, I assure you that I will join the committee of 300 and support them for the second destruction


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## whythiskolaveridi

India at least has been able to maintain the democracy for last 60 years. Those who don't know the meaning or have rarely seen democracy in their own country will naturally be ignorant people. That's why people from Pakistan come all the way to India to learn about Democracy. Only in March this year 200 lawyers from Pakistan visited India to study democratic Institutions. is not this hypocrisy???????????????//////


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## Jinx1

You ladies come over here, hurl insults at us all the time, abuse our country, our people, our leaders and our religion and desire that we should simply bow in obedience. It is not going to happen mademoiselles. We will hit back and respond - of-course while remaining within the forum rules. 

Your JCO Bana was a brave soldier. I have no qualms about acknowledging that. But if you think that there are whimpies here on this side - you all are mistaken. We don't underestimate or overestimate our enemies. 

May I ask where were the brave JCO Bana like Sikh worriers when the Indian Army invaded and destroyed the sacred Sri Harmandir Sahib. My ancestors living near jullundhar saved a great guru of yours from the mughals - yes we were Muslims then as well. But where were your Sikh warriors when your holiest place was desecrated. 

This is what this OpEd writer is probably saying. Instead of releasing your Sikh anger on us Pakistanis, learn to safeguard what is yours in a land that belongs to you. 

The Hindus dont even accept that Sikhs have a separate religion. They say that it is just an off-shoot of Hinduism. Two Sikhs killed Indra Gandhi - Over three thousand Sikhs were killed and burnt alive only in Delhi alone. The terrorist Modi from Gujarat did the same with Muslims. They are doing the same in Kashmir, in North East India and in many other places because the minorities are not Hindu and they don't have a place in Indianized Kingdom. 

You think you don't have a Stalin - who is Modi of Gujarat. For those who don't know Russians hate Stalin for killing millions of Russians because he had the power. Have your Stalins and kill as many Indians that you want to, because you have a democracy soaked in blood of your own people.


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## oFFbEAT

^^^^^You are mistaken....the Sikh massacre was *NOT* religiously motivated.....there were complicated political issues involved.....
The Sikh massacre was a result of personal vendetta of a powerful man.....once Rajiv Gandhi even said, *"*there are always tremors when a great tree(like Indira Gandhi) falls*"*...........

*The incident leading to 'operation blue star'....followed by killing of Indira Gandhi.....and finally Sikh massacre is a separatist movement of which many Sikhs were against....infact a Sikh named Kuldip Singh Brar led 'operation blue star'......
Therefore, it was NOT Hindus who attacked Sikhs, it was Congressi thugs who attacked Shiks.....*
And believe it or not there are so many Indians who hate the Nehru-Gandhi family for the blunders they have done......

Hindus don't hate Sikh....we even consider GURU NANAK DEV(founder of Sikhism) as one of our gods....like we consider GAUTAMA BUDDHA(founder of Buddhism), Mahavira(founder of Jainism) as our gods....*because all these religious leaders were born Hindus*....and we respect and love these enlightened persons by worshiping them.....

*Therefore there is no inherent conflict between the Religions originated from India(Hinduism,Buddhism,Sikhism,Jainism)......*

BUT this is not the case for Islam.....even though other religions have no problem with Islam.....Islam has problem with all the other religions.......
Hindus think, there are multiple ways(paths) to God(truth), therefore we accept different religions as different ways(paths).....
Whereas Muslims think there is ONLY ONE way to God which is Islam and problems arise when they try to force their beliefs on others and kill them if they deny.....
Ofcourse there are sane, moderate Muslims who helped people of other religions under different circumstances.....but majority are hardliners and they regard people of all other religions as *'Kaafirs'*......


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## whythiskolaveridi

Jinx1 said:


> You ladies come over here, hurl insults at us all the time, abuse our country, our people, our leaders and our religion and desire that we should simply bow in obedience. It is not going to happen mademoiselles. We will hit back and respond - of-course while remaining within the forum rules.
> 
> Your JCO Bana was a brave soldier. I have no qualms about acknowledging that. But if you think that there are whimpies here on this side - you all are mistaken. We don't underestimate or overestimate our enemies.
> 
> May I ask where were the brave JCO Bana like Sikh worriers when the Indian Army invaded and destroyed the sacred Sri Harmandir Sahib. My ancestors living near jullundhar saved a great guru of yours from the mughals - yes we were Muslims then as well. But where were your Sikh warriors when your holiest place was desecrated.
> 
> This is what this OpEd writer is probably saying. Instead of releasing your Sikh anger on us Pakistanis, learn to safeguard what is yours in a land that belongs to you.
> 
> The Hindus dont even accept that Sikhs have a separate religion. They say that it is just an off-shoot of Hinduism. Two Sikhs killed Indra Gandhi - Over three thousand Sikhs were killed and burnt alive only in Delhi alone. The terrorist Modi from Gujarat did the same with Muslims. They are doing the same in Kashmir, in North East India and in many other places because the minorities are not Hindu and they don't have a place in Indianized Kingdom.
> 
> You think you don't have a Stalin - who is Modi of Gujarat. For those who don't know Russians hate Stalin for killing millions of Russians because he had the power. Have your Stalins and kill as many Indians that you want to, because you have a democracy soaked in blood of your own people.



Religious riots are common world over but What Pakistan had done to its own Muslim brothers in East Pakistan is no where to be matched. You were probably not even born that time but ask the generation of that era what they had gone through. Muslims, who agreed to be part of the dream which Jinnah had promised to the Muslims of India was not to be seen. 

Even today you are treating Ahmadis and Mohajirs like that only. You feel you are the only purest Muslims in the world. Before showing concern for the people of different religions take care of your own people. Sikhs are quite happy and very much part of India. The PM and the Chief of Army are Sikh only. How many Hindus you have on such posts in Pakistan.

And what do you know about democracy? India had 60 years of democracy and running. What guarantee is there for your elected govt. 1971 is a testimony to your democracy when Mujib being the elected representative of the people was denied power. Instead you butchered men, women and kids in Bangladesh. The worst human rights violation in history in the sub-continent.


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## vK_man

Jinx1 said:


> You ladies come over here, hurl insults at us all the time, abuse our country, our people, our leaders and our religion and desire that we should simply bow in obedience. It is not going to happen mademoiselles. We will hit back and respond - of-course while remaining within the forum rules.
> 
> Your JCO Bana was a brave soldier. I have no qualms about acknowledging that. But if you think that there are whimpies here on this side - you all are mistaken. We don't underestimate or overestimate our enemies.
> 
> May I ask where were the brave JCO Bana like Sikh worriers when the Indian Army invaded and destroyed the sacred Sri Harmandir Sahib. My ancestors living near jullundhar saved a great guru of yours from the mughals - yes we were Muslims then as well. But where were your Sikh warriors when your holiest place was desecrated.
> 
> This is what this OpEd writer is probably saying. Instead of releasing your Sikh anger on us Pakistanis, learn to safeguard what is yours in a land that belongs to you.
> 
> The Hindus dont even accept that Sikhs have a separate religion. They say that it is just an off-shoot of Hinduism. Two Sikhs killed Indra Gandhi - Over three thousand Sikhs were killed and burnt alive only in Delhi alone. The terrorist Modi from Gujarat did the same with Muslims. They are doing the same in Kashmir, in North East India and in many other places because the minorities are not Hindu and they don't have a place in Indianized Kingdom.
> 
> You think you don't have a Stalin - who is Modi of Gujarat. For those who don't know Russians hate Stalin for killing millions of Russians because he had the power. Have your Stalins and kill as many Indians that you want to, because you have a democracy soaked in blood of your own people.



Stalin is one of most respected guys in Russia Today,Sir. And Stalin was responsible for 700,000 deaths not the millions of fake deaths the west claims and was deliberate propaganda .Modi is no where close to what Stalin achieved.
Joseph Stalin voted Third Best Russian | NowPublic News Coverage


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## Jinx1

Ladies ..... Ladies, we are discussing India here and not Pakistan. While explaining the Indian situation you start trashing Pakistan and then you start saying things against our religion. This is your problem. Instead of blaming others please sort out your own problems. See, others don't kill your own people as much as you kill your own through oppressive use of your security forces. 

In Canada, people in Quebec Province speak French and they want to form an independent country. Every now and then they hold a referendum and vote for it. They have so far been defeated with narrow margins. Yet they don't kill the people who want to secede from Canada. 

Why don't you guys allow such referendums in all those Indian States where people want to secede like civilized people. You don't do this and instead use oppression. This further fuels the freedom movements and insurgencies result. Whatever the level of violence, these movements have increased in number and the hatred against India grows by the day. 

Please stop blaming others for the mistakes you commit, and invite Stalins who you say killed 700,000 Russians to make Russia powerful. WoW what an argument.


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## Sashan

hinduguy said:


> Well, the number of such movement was quite high during early period but has gone down a lot due to democracy and federalism.
> Previously too much power was centered at delhi but now state capitals are the centres of power. With more devaluation of power to villages, such movements will go down.




A very rational posting. 



octopus said:


> Written by *Khan A. Sufyan* is a* Lahore-based* defence analyst....
> 
> Enough said .........




I read his other articles briefly. His analysis were well-researched and very sensible.


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## Jinx1

Sashan said:


> I read his other articles briefly. His analysis were well-researched and very sensible.



I agree with you. His earlier pieces were pretty good. 

The current one is also very good where he highlights a perpetual problem which India faces. And if treated in the manner as it is being treated, it is bound to get out of hand - that is if has already not gotten out of hand.


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## Jinx1

Dr. Subramanian Swamy is the President of a well known political party known as Janata Party. And this is what he says about one such genocide. This is just tip of the iceberg. This has happened again and again and again. The Indians can keep on blaming others for the genocides carried out by their own. I dont think this is a mere fanboy thing! 

Hashimpura massacre and PC?s role in it

Hashimpura massacre and PCs role in it 
14 Jul 2012 

Author: Subramanian Swamy (president of the Janata Party)

Excerpts from the piece ..

During the early hours of May 22, 1987, trucks of the Uttar Pradesh Provincial Armed Constabulary (PAC) arrived in a mixed Hindu-Muslim Meerut mohalla named Hashimpura, populated by labourers and weavers. This mohalla was peaceful despite protracted communal clashes in Meerut since April 1987. The opening of the locks of the Babri Masjid by the Rajiv Gandhi government was the point of conflagration.

Nineteen PAC men with their commanding officer, had been ordered to surround the Hashimpura mohalla, to wake up the residents and then segregate them as Hindus and Muslims. Thereafter, they separated Muslim women and elderly men from the youth. Of these youth, the PAC constables picked young boys aged between 15 and 35 years, and ordered them to board two of their trucks.

The trucks then drove 20 Km to Gang Neher, a canal near Murad Nagar and to Hindon canal. At the two places, the youth were ordered to disembark one by one. As each young man got down, he was shot in the head by a PAC jawan, and his body kicked into the canal. Only three survived, one of them was to die later. In all, 42 were killed in that pre-dawn, execution-style massacre.

A few days later on May 26, 1987, Syed Shahabuddin, then a Janata Party MP, called me up in a highly emotionally charged voice to explain what had happened and asked me to do something.

I therefore visited Hashimpura and spoke to the residents. I took some of the Hindus aside and asked for confirmation of what Shahabuddin had narrated to me. They confirmed the account. I also visited Gang Neher and saw the tell tale marks of blood and flesh, and also inhaled the stench from the rotting blood clots.

By then I was in a shock. I thought atrocities in the 1975-77 Emergency was the rock bottom to which the modern Indian nation could sink in terms of State sponsored terror. But this was right out of the Nazi Holocaust. ...

I therefore I called up Shahabuddin and promised that I would do something. At that time the Prime Minister was Rajiv Gandhi and who was also my friend, and therefore I had unlimited access to meet him.

Thus a meeting between Rajiv and me took place. He of course knew about the matter. So I urged him to set up an inquiry. He told me he would, but his tone was not assuring. Several months passed but nothing happened.

Then Shahabuddin and I decided that the Janata Party would launch an agitation. By then Chandrashekhar had handed over the party presidentship to Ajit Singh, but both were supportive. A number protest meetings and a long walk from Hashimpura to Vijay Chowk in New Delhi took place. But there was no response from Rajiv on our demand except sympathy for our cause.

By then officials, Home Minister Buta Singh and even the UP CM, Vir Bahadur Singh. began speaking to me in confidence about what happened. They said that Rajiv will not order an inquiry because the then Minister of State for Home P Chidambaram (the current Indian Home Minister) was the one whose idea it was to teach a lesson to Muslims, as Congress did with the Sikhs. So Rajiv feared that his name too would be dragged in if an inquiry is held.

I learnt on May 18, 1987 that Chidambaram, along with Vir Bahadur Singh, conducted an aerial survey of Hashimpura, Malliana, and other riot-affected areas of Meerut. This the government confirmed on the floor of Rajya Sabha, when I had raised the matter.

However, the Government went on the offensive when I stated in the Rajya Sabha that soon after Chidambaram had held a closed door meeting in Meerut of officials and PAC officers. The MP of Meerut, Mohsina Kidwai, should have been invited to this meeting, but instead she was put on de facto house arrest in the Dak Bungalow to prevent her from turning up. There, at that meeting, Chidambaram (the current Indian Home Minister) gave the genocide order: Kill about 50 Muslim youth. 

Irrespective of the religious colour of this genocide, we cannot allow the Hashimpura genocide slip into oblivion. For the sake of the nations pride in democracy, we must avenge this State  sponsored genocide.

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## notsuperstitious

Pakistan telling India about democracy is the same as India telling Pakistan about the hudood ordinance or military junta!

As to the blood soaked part, only recently pakistani ex general from the 1971 war has come clean on the genetic engineering through rape and slaughter of millions by pak fauj in east pakistan. So there we recognize pakistan's absolute authority and vast experience on the subject.


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## Nassr

@Jinx1
Good post buddy. It amply exemplifies what Sufyan Khan has already stated in his piece. I think it may - just may, open the eyes of Indian posters here now that one of their own, a well known political leader, says the same thing. 

Dr. Subramanian Swamy says that it is *State Sponsored Genocide* by India against her own people. What a shame indeed.



fateh71 said:


> Pakistan telling India about democracy is the same as India telling Pakistan about the hudood ordinance or military junta!
> 
> As to the blood soaked part, only recently pakistani ex general from the 1971 war has come clean on the genetic engineering through rape and slaughter of millions by pak fauj in east pakistan. So there we recognize pakistan's absolute authority and vast experience on the subject.



Sir, we are discussing India and not Pakistan. 

You ought to think again when you accuse others for your own doings. Your own political leader is accusing your government of *State Sponsored Genocide*. Oh well, the poor guys massacred were Indian Muslims - it doesn't matter to you does it. 

I don't think so, as Indian Democracy Is Soaked In The Blood Of Her Own People.


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## Sashan

Nassr said:


> @Jinx1
> Good post buddy. It amply exemplifies what Sufyan Khan has already stated in his piece. I think it may - just may, open the eyes of Indian posters here now that one of their own, a well known political leader, says the same thing.
> 
> Dr. Subramanian Swamy says that it is *State Sponsored Genocide* by India against her own people. What a shame indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> Sir, we are discussing India and not Pakistan.
> 
> You ought to think again when you accuse others for your own doings. Your own political leader is accusing your government of *State Sponsored Genocide*. Oh well, the poor guys massacred were Indian Muslims - it doesn't matter to you does it.
> 
> I don't think so, as Indian Democracy Is Soaked In The Blood Of Her Own People.



No one denies the Hashimpura massacre and many Indians are all for justice to the victims. As for Dr. Swamy supporting the justice for the victims, you should know Dr. Swamy is slammed by many pseudo secularists as hindutva supporter for his extreme political views. In short, that defines Indian democracy for you. India as a democracy is pretty lenient but when it comes to voices of secession, the crackdown will be brutal and innocent people get affected as collateral damage. Many Indians like Swamy irrespective of their views do not condone such behavior and try to sweep it under the carpet. Else the author who had written the article will not know about what is going on. 

As for the author quoting almost 50% of the land not under Indian government control, it is a fig of imagination on his part which shows the lack of research similar to what he has done in many of his other articles. Maoism is the most severe threat to India but if Maoism is such an extreme threat to India, Indian army would have been unleased by now instead of police forces fighting the battle with Maoists.


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## vK_man

Sashan said:


> No one denies the Hashimpura massacre and many Indians are all for justice to the victims. As for Dr. Swamy supporting the justice for the victims, you should know Dr. Swamy is slammed by many pseudo secularists as hindutva supporter for his extreme political views. In short, that defines Indian democracy for you. India as a democracy is pretty lenient but when it comes to voices of secession, the crackdown will be brutal and innocent people get affected as collateral damage. Many Indians like Swamy irrespective of their views do not condone such behavior and try to sweep it under the carpet. Else the author who had written the article will not know about what is going on.
> 
> As for the author quoting almost 50% of the land not under Indian government control, it is a fig of imagination on his part which shows the lack of research similar to what he has done in many of his other articles. Maoism is the most severe threat to India but if Maoism is such an extreme threat to India, Indian army would have been unleased by now instead of police forces fighting the battle with Maoists.



unleashing the army will make the situation way worse.The tribal revolt which the govt loves to dub as maoism is very popular due to the govt's insanely corrupt and stupid mining policies and corporate bribery of politicans and disregarding the tribal way of life.The simple solution of handing mining rights to the tribals will solve the issue as the govt has proven too corrupt and has disregarded the tribal ways of life and forcibly trying to drive them out so that their land can be exploited by the likes of Vedenta. 

The only solution to this:
1) give the tribals mining rights(similiar policy in USA where ownership of mineral rights is private)
2) respect the tribal way of life.

this will dissipate the tribal rebellion.Anything else will make it way way worse. and yes 40% of land is naxal yellow zone. Which govt has only partial control.


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## Sashan

vK_man said:


> *unleashing the army will make the situation way worse*.The tribal revolt which the govt loves to dub as maoism is very popular due to the govt's insanely corrupt and stupid mining policies and corporate bribery of politicans and disregarding the tribal way of life.The simple solution of handing mining rights to the tribals will solve the issue as the govt has proven too corrupt and has disregarded the tribal ways of life and forcibly trying to drive them out so that their land can be exploited by the likes of Vedenta.
> 
> The only solution to this:
> 1) give the tribals mining rights(similiar policy in USA where ownership of mineral rights is private)
> 2) respect the tribal way of life.
> 
> this will dissipate the tribal rebellion.Anything else will make it way way worse.



The highlighted portion is the very reason why Indian army is not sitting there in the Maoist affected regions. I agree that tribals were exploited which made these Maoist leaders from outside sit there and cause trouble. If the 2 points you highlighted is the solution, so be it.


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## Nassr

Sashan said:


> No one denies the Hashimpura massacre and many Indians are all for justice to the victims. As for Dr. Swamy supporting the justice for the victims, you should know Dr. Swamy is slammed by many pseudo secularists as hindutva supporter for his extreme political views. In short, that defines Indian democracy for you. India as a democracy is pretty lenient but when it comes to voices of secession, the crackdown will be brutal and innocent people get affected as collateral damage. Many Indians like Swamy irrespective of their views do not condone such behavior and try to sweep it under the carpet. Else the author who had written the article will not know about what is going on.
> 
> As for the author quoting almost 50% of the land not under Indian government control, it is a fig of imagination on his part which shows the lack of research similar to what he has done in many of his other articles. Maoism is the most severe threat to India but if Maoism is such an extreme threat to India, Indian army would have been unleased by now instead of police forces fighting the battle with Maoists.



Let me quote from this article

Hashimpura massacre and PC
_
I learnt on May 18, 1987 that Chidambaram, along with Vir Bahadur Singh, conducted an aerial survey of Hashimpura, Malliana, and other riot-affected areas of Meerut. This the government confirmed on the floor of Rajya Sabha, when I had raised the matter.

However, the Government went on the offensive when I stated in the Rajya Sabha that soon after Chidambaram had held a closed door meeting in Meerut of officials and PAC officers. The MP of Meerut, Mohsina Kidwai, should have been invited to this meeting, but instead she was put on de facto house arrest in the Dak Bungalow to prevent her from turning up. There, at that meeting, Chidambaram gave the genocide order: &#8220;Kill about 50 Muslim youth&#8221;. _

The Hashimpura massacre occurred in UP and was not part of a secessionist movement. Yet, the PCs carried out the massacre on the apparent orders of Chidambaram to &#8220;Kill about 50 Muslim youth&#8221;. This counters your theory that India as a democracy is pretty lenient and only brutalizes secessionists. What about the massacre of Muslims in Gujarat by Modi &#8211; even Vajpai was shocked. And many other such horrifying incidents elsewhere in India. 

Even you people should understand that the brutalities are symptomatic in Indian system which Sufyan Khan identifies as neo-colonial attitude. Or is it to teach a lesson to the Indian minorities that we have the power and we will brutalize you, even to the extent of carrying out a genocide unless they fall in line and live like slaves of Hidutva ruled majority. 

I agree, Subramanian Swamy is well known for his views and I was surprised by his article, which may have political undertones. But that&#8217;s not the point. It is routine and massive human rights violations that are being committed by Indian security forces against their own people which creates doubts about the veracity of India being a tolerant multi-ethnic and multi-cultural and multi religious entity. And there is too much evidence that it is not. 

Regarding the possibility of 40-50% of India being covered by these insurgencies is a moot point. Lets agree to disagree on this.


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## Sashan

Nassr said:


> Let me quote from this article
> 
> Hashimpura massacre and PC
> _
> I learnt on May 18, 1987 that Chidambaram, along with Vir Bahadur Singh, conducted an aerial survey of Hashimpura, Malliana, and other riot-affected areas of Meerut. This the government confirmed on the floor of Rajya Sabha, when I had raised the matter.
> 
> However, the Government went on the offensive when I stated in the Rajya Sabha that soon after Chidambaram had held a closed door meeting in Meerut of officials and PAC officers. The MP of Meerut, Mohsina Kidwai, should have been invited to this meeting, but instead she was put on de facto house arrest in the Dak Bungalow to prevent her from turning up. There, at that meeting, Chidambaram gave the genocide order: &#8220;Kill about 50 Muslim youth&#8221;. _
> 
> The Hashimpura massacre occurred in UP and was not part of a secessionist movement. Yet, the PCs carried out the massacre on the apparent orders of Chidambaram to &#8220;Kill about 50 Muslim youth&#8221;. This counters your theory that India as a democracy is pretty lenient and only brutalizes secessionists. What about the massacre of Muslims in Gujarat by Modi &#8211; even Vajpai was shocked. And many other such horrifying incidents elsewhere in India.
> 
> Even you people should understand that the brutalities are symptomatic in Indian system which Sufyan Khan identifies as neo-colonial attitude. Or is it to teach a lesson to the Indian minorities that we have the power and we will brutalize you, even to the extent of carrying out a genocide unless they fall in line and live like slaves of Hidutva ruled majority.
> 
> I agree, Subramanian Swamy is well known for his views and I was surprised by his article, which may have political undertones. But that&#8217;s not the point. It is routine and massive human rights violations that are being committed by Indian security forces against their own people which creates doubts about the veracity of India being a tolerant multi-ethnic and multi-cultural and multi religious entity. And there is too much evidence that it is not.
> 
> Regarding the possibility of 40-50% of India being covered by these insurgencies is a moot point. Lets agree to disagree on this.



Here is something I posted in response to the news yesterday in another thread.

Hashimpura maybe the handiwork of PAC but I do not think Chiddu is involved in the massacre. Swamy has been going against Chiddu in a dogged manner in 2G case as well this one. Swamy is a brilliant mind who was the brain behind the 1991 reforms though MM took the credit. He was instrumental in 2G case as well. This being the case, he could not succeed against Chiddu which only shows he has a vendetta against him.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/member...slims-p-chidambaram-s-role.html#ixzz20hgUwons


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## Nassr

Sashan said:


> Here is something I posted in response to the news yesterday in another thread.
> 
> Hashimpura maybe the handiwork of PAC but I do not think Chiddu is involved in the massacre. Swamy has been going against Chiddu in a dogged manner in 2G case as well this one. Swamy is a brilliant mind who was the brain behind the 1991 reforms though MM took the credit. He was instrumental in 2G case as well. This being the case, he could not succeed against Chiddu which only shows he has a vendetta against him.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/member...slims-p-chidambaram-s-role.html#ixzz20hgUwons



Look, I already said that swamy's views may have political undertones. That is not in contention here. 

What surprises me is the matter of fact way in which such massacres are taken. And there are so many known examples of such massacres having been undertaken again and again with quite apparent Indian government nod. Lets see how long does it last. The oppression always ends in counter oppression and almost always ends in some form of revolt. The brutalities committed by Taliban in Afghanistan is one such example.


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## Sashan

Nassr said:


> Look, I already said that swamy's views may have political undertones. That is not in contention here.
> 
> What surprises me is the matter of fact way in which such massacres are taken. And there are so many known examples of such massacres having been undertaken again and again with quite apparent Indian government nod. Lets see how long does it last. The oppression always ends in counter oppression and almost always ends in some form of revolt. The brutalities committed by Taliban in Afghanistan is one such example.



Massacres have happened in India and there is no denying the fact. But let me assure you, majority Indians are not proud of this and they want justice. India is different in the aspect that post-incident voices are not suppressed. And the voices are very shrill so nothing can be hidden as well. So there is no opportunity for revolt.


----------



## Nassr

Sashan said:


> Massacres have happened in India and there is no denying the fact. But let me assure you, majority Indians are not proud of this and they want justice. India is different in the aspect that post-incident voices are not suppressed. And the voices are very shrill so nothing can be hidden as well. So there is no opportunity for revolt.



Sir, you surprise me at times. It is not the majority Indians who are massacred, it is the minorities and some others who want to secede and are fighting for secession. These people are in majority in their own areas and not overall in India. The Hashimpura massacre happened in 1987 and what has happened since then - shrill voices of Swamy - have a heart. 

The Iron Lady, who is on hunger strike since last 12 years and then what! I can continue and continue naming a lot of such known incidents. Discovery of 2000 mass graves. Sir in which country such massive and large scale atrocities are committed by their security forces - name one. Swamy quotes Nazis. So should we compare the Indian Army and other security forces with Nazi forces. 

Sir, you people need to understand that such massacres and genocides can not be carried out in perpetuity.


----------



## Sashan

Nassr said:


> Sir, you surprise me at times. It is not the majority Indians who are massacred, it is the minorities and some others who want to secede and are fighting for secession. These people are in majority in their own areas and not overall in India. The Hashimpura massacre happened in 1987 and what has happened since then - shrill voices of Swamy - have a heart.
> 
> The Iron Lady, who is on hunger strike since last 12 years and then what! I can continue and continue naming a lot of such known incidents. Discovery of 2000 mass graves. Sir in which country such massive and large scale atrocities are committed by their security forces - name one. Swamy quotes Nazis. So should we compare the Indian Army and other security forces with Nazi forces.
> 
> Sir, you people need to understand that such massacres and genocides can not be carried out in perpetuity.




It is not just minorities but majority as well who have been affected. As for you quoting few examples here.

1. Hashimpura does not ask for secession. It is part of the Hindu-muslim riots where maybe PAC were trigger happy.
2. Irom Sharmila is not a secessionist voice. She calls for getting rid of AFSPA from Manipur. Her fast is in response to Assam rifles killing 10 villagers. And mind you, the restrictions on her is by the Manipur state and not Indian government. Manipur government is elected by its own people. 
3. 2000 mass graves - it is still up for debate who is there in those graves - foreign militants who does not belong to Kashmir or local Kashmiris. Investigation is on and I would wait for the outcome. 

As for majority too getting affected - 

1. Precursor to Gujarat riots(again in the riots both Hindus and muslims died) - 58 hindus were killed.
2. ULFA is due to the Assam people getting affected due to foreign illegal immigrants changing the demographics in certain regions. 
3. Kashmir pandits thrown out of Kashmir.


So in short, incidents happen but India is forgiving and accomodating when it comes to minorities. It is a federation. The power rests with the states to rule their own people except for certain areas like foreign affairs.

But if someone wants secession, India will kick their b***. And India is unforgiving in that aspect and the message is very clear. Democracy is there when the people want to live within India and enjoy the fruits of a federal setup. Beyond that, there is nothing to do with democracy.


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## Nassr

Sashan said:


> It is not just minorities but majority as well who have been affected. As for you quoting few examples here.
> 
> 1. Hashimpura does not ask for secession. It is part of the Hindu-muslim riots where maybe PAC were trigger happy.
> 2. Irom Sharmila is not a secessionist voice. She calls for getting rid of AFSPA from Manipur. Her fast is in response to Assam rifles killing 10 villagers. And mind you, the restrictions on her is by the Manipur state and not Indian government. Manipur government is elected by its own people.
> 3. 2000 mass graves - it is still up for debate who is there in those graves - foreign militants who does not belong to Kashmir or local Kashmiris. Investigation is on and I would wait for the outcome.
> 
> As for majority too getting affected -
> 
> 1. Precursor to Gujarat riots(again in the riots both Hindus and muslims died) - 58 hindus were killed.
> 2. ULFA is due to the Assam people getting affected due to foreign illegal immigrants changing the demographics in certain regions.
> 3. Kashmir pandits thrown out of Kashmir.
> 
> 
> So in short, incidents happen but India is forgiving and accomodating when it comes to minorities. It is a federation. The power rests with the states to rule their own people except for certain areas like foreign affairs.
> 
> But if someone wants secession, India will kick their b***. And India is unforgiving in that aspect and the message is very clear. Democracy is there when the people want to live within India and enjoy the fruits of a federal setup. Beyond that, there is nothing to do with democracy.



Sir, you amply highlight why India is a Democracy Soaked in Blood of Her Own People. 

Keep at it, you will be able to kill hundreds of thousands more of your own. After all you have over a billion people to kill. It will take some time indeed.


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## Sashan

Nassr said:


> Sir, you amply highlight why India is a Democracy Soaked in Blood of Her Own People.
> 
> Keep at it, you will be able to kill hundreds of thousands more of your own. After all you have over a billion people to kill. It will take some time indeed.



I believe the discussions have run its course as there is no where to go from here. Peace.


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## Stealth

nick_indian said:


> This article = Unabashedly Biased crap
> 
> The conclusion of the article= Wishful thinking since 65 years and running
> 
> Most of these so called 140 geoups have already surrendered and many of them have not more than 50-100 members. Hardly anything lethal about them .
> 
> Check out SATP.org , insurgency violence particularly in Kashmir Valley and North-East has gone drastically in the last few years .
> 
> In fact , in the North East there is hardly any serious , worth its salt insurgency or so called freedom movement left .



Do you have any idea how many so called "SEPARATION MOVEMENT Holder in Baluchistan" ??????

my answer is "LOL AT ALL INDIANS ON PDF"

by your logic thn only 2 Sardar who even don't have majority and not even have 200 + members whom your INDIA and USA claim for so called "FREEDOM GROUPS" lol not even represent 2% of Baluchistan. Where as 68 Sardaars in which few hold 20/20/30% of Baluchistan with Pakistan.

The problem with you guyz is when some news regarding India (Negative) you start bashing against the author, writer and deny all the claims and blames.. but when it comes to Pakistan.. you guys even believe those News and post those links which even wrote by anonymous Author lol


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## Nassr

Sashan said:


> I believe the discussions have run its course as there is no where to go from here. Peace.



Sir, contrarily, it has just begun. Got tired and so soon?


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## Punjabbi Munda

Though the article is biased and the 'groups' it is talking about,most of them have given up arms/surrendered,India is a democracy but the people aren't enjoying much,from inflation to national growth rate to anti-corruption laws to tackling of local issues like roads,electricity,water supply etc..the results are far from what people would have wanted.


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## Sashan

Nassr said:


> Sir, contrarily, it has just begun. Got tired and so soon?



Not tired but it will degenerate into troll fight from here onwards and I hate being subjective with my posts as there is nothing for me in your more recent post to counter objectively.


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## Nassr

Sashan said:


> Not tired but it will degenerate into troll fight from here onwards and I hate being subjective with my posts as there is nothing for me in your more recent post to counter objectively.



I am sorry I said that.



Punjabbi Munda said:


> Though the article is biased and the 'groups' it is talking about,most of them have given up arms/surrendered,India is a democracy but the people aren't enjoying much,from inflation to national growth rate to anti-corruption laws to tackling of local issues like roads,electricity,water supply etc..the results are far from what people would have wanted.



However, the Indian media does not acknowledge that and lists all these groups as still operational in different parts of India.


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## livingdead

Nassr said:


> I am sorry I said that.
> 
> 
> 
> However, the Indian media does not acknowledge that and lists all these groups as still operational in different parts of India.


Indian media does acknowledge which is why you see the numbers. But sometimes the number does not tell the whole story. The number of incidents have gone down considerably( I am only comparing, I am not saying all is well) in all other regions, except the naxal areas where it has gone up.
You dont see that everyday in news because news works on basis of something happening bad( say stone throwing, bomb blast, police-naxal clash etc)
Naxalism is a separate topic, and there are many in India who are sympathetic to the cause they espouse (including me), I dont agree about their communism or armed struggle. Even govt agrees that they are to be blamed for the mess.


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## Nassr

hinduguy said:


> Indian media does acknowledge which is why you see the numbers. But sometimes the number does not tell the whole story. The number of incidents have gone down considerably( I am only comparing, I am not saying all is well) in all other regions, except the naxal areas where it has gone up.
> You dont see that everyday in news because news works on basis of something happening bad( say stone throwing, bomb blast, police-naxal clash etc)
> Naxalism is a separate topic, and there are many in India who are sympathetic to the cause they espouse (including me), I dont agree about their communism or armed struggle. Even govt agrees that they are to be blamed for the mess.



I had earlier posted my reply on a similar point raised by another gentleman:

_>>>>>>Sir, The stats on violence in India keeps on going up and down and may have declined as we speak. This is exactly what the author is trying to probably convey - the brutalities committed by Indian security forces may bring the violence down but has it cooled the feelings of people brutalised - I think it has resulted in increase of anti-India feelings manifold. And it is this very thing that you people need to understand.

Blaming others for your own mistakes does not hide the true picture.<<<<<<_

In my opinion even Naxal movement has grown into an insurgency in certain parts, where Indian security forces are afraid to commit themselves and therefore government writ can not be established.


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## livingdead

Nassr said:


> I had earlier posted my reply on a similar point raised by another gentleman:
> 
> _>>>>>>Sir, The stats on violence in India keeps on going up and down and may have declined as we speak. This is exactly what the author is trying to probably convey - the brutalities committed by Indian security forces may bring the violence down but has it cooled the feelings of people brutalised - I think it has resulted in increase of anti-India feelings manifold. And it is this very thing that you people need to understand.
> 
> Blaming others for your own mistakes does not hide the true picture.<<<<<<_
> 
> In my opinion even Naxal movement has grown into an insurgency in certain parts, where Indian security forces are afraid to commit themselves and therefore government writ can not be established.



I am from naxal affected area, I dont like to call them terrorist. Some of the grievences of the local people (tribals) are genuine which feeds the movement. I dont agree with the ideaology (overthrow of democratic rule and brining communism through armed struggle), but many of the people were pushed into the movement due to negligence of govt.

Most Indians here side with the govt because they have enjoyed the fruits of democracy. When we say, India is shining, everything is fine, we are not lying. It is our perception, because we live in cities/towns and we benefit from govt's schemes. We also can see things changing infront of our eye. For many people in naxal areas, things have not changed for decades.


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## Ticker

hinduguy said:


> I am from naxal affected area, I dont like to call them terrorist. Some of the grievences of the local people (tribals) are genuine which feeds the movement. I dont agree with the ideaology (overthrow of democratic rule and brining communism through armed struggle), but many of the people were pushed into the movement due to negligence of govt.
> 
> Most Indians here side with the govt because they have enjoyed the fruits of democracy. When we say, India is shining, everything is fine, we are not lying. It is our perception, because we live in cities/towns and we benefit from govt's schemes. We also can see things changing infront of our eye. For many people in naxal areas, things have not changed for decades.



I agree with what you are saying. There are pockets of prosperity in India and outside these pockets much of India has not seen the shining part of India. The Naxalite movement is apparently maturing into a well organized resistance group which is preparing to cross the red line, to become an insurgency. 

Today&#8217;s Deccan Chronicle report that Naxals have now developed a fully hi-tech weapons testing laboratory similar to the ones used by the defence forces and the DRDO, is a clear indicator of this fact. 

Naxals have labs to test weapons | Deccan Chronicle


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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> I agree with what you are saying. There are pockets of prosperity in India and outside these pockets much of India has not seen the shining part of India. *The Naxalite movement is apparently maturing into a well organized resistance group which is preparing to cross the red line, to become an insurgency*.
> 
> Todays Deccan Chronicle report that Naxals have now developed a fully hi-tech weapons testing laboratory similar to the ones used by the defence forces and the DRDO, is a clear indicator of this fact.
> 
> Naxals have labs to test weapons | Deccan Chronicle



Still they are same even after 50 years could not harness the opportunity when this country was dirt poor in 60s like Mao Zedong harnessed the opportunity.


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## Ticker

Gigawatt said:


> Still they are same even after 50 years could not harness the opportunity when this country was dirt poor in 60s like Mao Zedong harnessed the opportunity.



gigawatt ji they are your own people and you are laughing when they ask for their rights. This apparently is symptomatic with Indian government and most of Indians. And this is the problem. You people are not pushed when your security forces kill innocent Indians in tens of thousands all over India and you say - ye hai India meray dost yahan sab chalta hai. You will feel the pinch when it reaches your home and it will some day unless you treat other Indians as human beings.


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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> gigawatt ji they are your own people and you are laughing when they ask for their rights. This apparently is symptomatic with Indian government and most of Indians. And this is the problem. You people are not pushed when your security forces kill innocent Indians in tens of thousands all over India and you say - ye hai India meray dost yahan sab chalta hai. You will feel the pinch when it reaches your home and it will some day unless you treat other Indians as human beings.



Because the hardcore corrupt Naxalites indulge in anti-people criminal activities that's why it never became a people's movement even in 50years and so will be another 100 years. So, I was laughing at your intelligence.


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## Ticker

Gigawatt said:


> Because the hardcore corrupt Naxalites indulge in anti-people criminal activities that's why it never became a people's movement even in 50years and so will be another 100 years. So, I was laughing at your intelligence.



You can laugh all the way to Chattisgarh and meet the Naxals in their weapon testing labs. Or you may go to any of the 120 or more other districts where Naxals are killing Indian soldiers and dance tango with AK-47s hung on your shoulder. Laugh gigawatt as there is no bijli in chattisgarh these days


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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> You can laugh all the way to Chattisgarh and meet the Naxals in their weapon testing labs. Or you may go to any of the 120 or more other districts where Naxals are killing Indian soldiers and dance tango with AK-47s hung on your shoulder. Laugh gigawatt as there is no bijli in chattisgarh these days



now, a keyboard warrior sitting in well fortified Islamabad who only believe in anti-India venom will tell me about Naxalites.


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## Ticker

Gigawatt said:


> now, a keyboard warrior sitting in well fortified Islamabad who only believe in anti-India venom will tell me about Naxalites.



Nope. I am just quoting Indian media. I am not here to teach you anything. You need to learn about Naxals from your own media outlets and other Indians who have posted here. By what you have said so far - you don't seem to be an intellectual of any sort. I am not being personal, but just stating my opinion from what you have posted so far.


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## INDIC

Ticker said:


> Nope. I am just quoting Indian media. I am not here to teach you anything. You need to learn about Naxals from your own media outlets and other Indians who have posted here. By what you have said so far - you don't seem to be an intellectual of any sort. I am not being personal, but just stating my opinion from what you have posted so far.



If I will tell you the true situation of Naxalism, you won't believe it. I know the general knowledge of your countrymen who even don't know difference between insurgency and separatist movement.


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## whythiskolaveridi

Ticker said:


> I agree with what you are saying. There are pockets of prosperity in India and outside these pockets much of India has not seen the shining part of India. The Naxalite movement is apparently maturing into a well organized resistance group which is preparing to cross the red line, to become an insurgency.
> 
> T*oday&#8217;s Deccan Chronicle report that Naxals have now developed a fully hi-tech weapons testing laboratory similar to the ones used by the defence forces and the DRDO, is a clear indicator of this fact.
> *
> Naxals have labs to test weapons | Deccan Chronicle



By your own admission, they have developed a high tech lab. Is not it enough reason to believe that they are not friends of tribals but just a racket for extortion from mining firms. Otherwise the kind of money and technology they have got in the jungles, it could have been used for a better purpose. Now who says the area is backward. Even our Pak brothers know that a state-of-the-art lab is functioning there. What stops them to start an enterprise or a school there with that kind of money?


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## Ticker

whythiskolaveridi said:


> By your own admission, they have developed a high tech lab. Is not it enough reason to believe that they are not friends of tribals but just a racket for extortion from mining firms. Otherwise the kind of money and technology they have got in the jungles, it could have been used for a better purpose. Now who says the area is backward. Even our Pak brothers know that a state-of-the-art lab is functioning there. What stops them to start an enterprise or a school there with that kind of money?



Not by my admission - it is Deccan Chronicle which is an Indian Newspaper. 

I agree with you. By the same token the Indian government has to provide her people equal political and economic opportunities. In the absence of such dispensation, these movements thrive and thriving they are. When the security forces kill and torture and rape, people revolt. It is this revolt which is taking place and instead of providing them their basic needs the torture and killings increase which forces the Naxals to seek additional protective measures, which apparently they are doing. 

Same is the case with other oppressed people in different parts of India.


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## Ticker

Why is such a thing happening in India. It is the world's biggest democracy. However, being a democratic country, big or small, is certainly not the mantra of solving the problems of good governance. After all US and Canada are big and democratic. They have multi-religious, multi-ethnic and multi-cultural societies. Yet such problems do not exist in these countries.

The example of Quebec in Canada is in front of us. French speaking populace in Quebec want an independent Quebec. They have a civilized way to deal with it. They held referendum and those who wanted freedom lost the vote. This is democracy at its best. Why don&#8217;t we hear of an armed freedom movement in Canada. Do we see the Canadian security forces brutalizing those who seek freedom. NO. This is what civilized countries do.

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## Tinu

What happened in Quebec in Canada were Plebiscites. And the people decided to remain united with Canada. This shows the confidence of the people in their country and the confidence of the country in its people. 

Can it happen in India. It will not happen in India easily as force is needed to keep together the entity called India. If the force is removed, the people in almost half of India would secede within weeks. 

But how long the so-called unity of India can it last. I believe not long enough. 

Beginning of another such movement though in its infancy (politically active since some time) is Telengana. There will be many more.


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## Jako

Tinu said:


> What happened in Quebec in Canada were Plebiscites. And the people decided to remain united with Canada. This shows the confidence of the people in their country and the confidence of the country in its people.
> 
> Can it happen in India. It will not happen in India easily as force is needed to keep together the entity called India. If the force is removed, the people in almost half of India would secede within weeks.
> 
> But how long the so-called unity of India can it last. I believe not long enough.
> 
> Beginning of another such movement though in its infancy (politically active since some time) is Telengana. There will be many more.


Its quite amusing how cyber jehadis post things without knowing SHYTE bout anything.
Telengana movement is for a state out Andhra Pradesh mr Jehadi.

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## Tinu

Self deleted.


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## Jako

Tinu said:


> Hey JackAss, learn to read the thing carefully. I said politically active since some time. I know that the KangerAss party of India promised them a separate state since long which has not happened. Those who demand a separate state of Telengana have already started using violence - that is why I said in its infancy.
> 
> Jehad is sacred to Muslims. Learn to respect other religions. Don't use this word insultingly.
> 
> Now go and run to the admins and tell them I called you a Jacko


And still you deny that you know nothing bout telengana you moron?
You used it in relevance to the breaking up of India,dint you?
And call your dad what called me,it suits you cyber jehadis better.

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## Tinu

Self deleted.


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## Jako

Tinu said:


> You are a MF kolkutta Bangaali. Not worth talking to.


And a racist b*stard as well you are.
When have no reply resort to trolling.
Worthless piece of Shyte you are actually.

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## Tinu

Jako said:


> And a racist b*stard as well you are.
> When have no reply resort to trolling.
> Worthless piece of Shyte you are actually.



When you call me a jehadi, that is racist. You are not worth a reply even.


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## INDIC

Tinu said:


> Beginning of another such movement though in its infancy (politically active since some time) is Telengana. There will be many more.



Separatist movement in Telangana. Is it clown Zaid Hamid effect.


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## Tinu

Gigawatt said:


> Separatist movement in Telangana. Who told you this, clown Zaid Hamid.



I didn't say that. Like Naxals who use violence for a different reason, those seeking a separate state within India have also started using violence. If these things are not granted within specifies time line, the level of violence will increase. Telengana movement people destroyed a number of statues in a park some time ago. Read the names of the people whose statues they destroyed, it may surprise you. 

Stop using derogatory names for people who have a different opinion. Kahin tumhari watt hi na lag jae gigawatt.


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## livingdead

Tinu said:


> I didn't say that. Like Naxals who use violence for a different reason, those seeking a separate state within India have also started using violence. If these things are not granted within specifies time line, the level of violence will increase. Telengana movement people destroyed a number of statues in a park some time ago. Read the names of the people whose statues they destroyed, it may surprise you.
> 
> Stop using derogatory names for people who have a different opinion. Kahin tumhari watt hi na lag jae gigawatt.


There is no violence in telengana movement as such. India (or south asia) is a violent place, and people resort to violence for much less (like say power cut). Talking telengana and naxalism in same sentence is laughable.


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## INDIC

Tinu said:


> I didn't say that. Like Naxals who use violence for a different reason, those seeking a separate state within India have also started using violence. If these things are not granted within specifies time line, the level of violence will increase. Telengana movement people destroyed a number of statues in a park some time ago. Read the names of the people whose statues they destroyed, it may surprise you.
> 
> Stop using derogatory names for people who have a different opinion. Kahin tumhari watt hi na lag jae gigawatt.


 
one can still roam freely in Hyderabad-Secunderabad freely in night unlike Karachi where everyone is running for their life daily.


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## Tinu

The movement became violent in 1969 and in some instances police had to resort to firing to control the mobs and the army had to be called in. Currently, the violence is limited. However, most of the local and even other Indian leaders are predicting that the movement is likely to turn violent.


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## livingdead

Tinu said:


> The movement became violent in 1969 and in some instances police had to resort to firing to control the mobs and the army had to be called in. Currently, the violence is limited. However, most of the local and even other Indian leaders are predicting that the movement is likely to turn violent.


In India police fires when mob goes on rampage, and mob can go on rampage due to various things. The recent notable ones include unrest in some factory, gujjar asking for job quota etc. I am not sure whether you are from south asia, but it always starts with a buring of a bus or some public property.
I am not saying police should be like that, but India is not canada. When I said there is no violence wrt telengana movement, you should understand the level of violence I am talking about.

And yes, telengana has all the recipe for becoming violent. But may be it wont, because there is near consensus in telengana region that they should get a state(in all parties).


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## Imam Bukhari

Tinu said:


> Jehad is sacred to Muslims. Learn to respect other religions. Don't use this word insultingly.



Tinu Bhai,

You are certaintly correct when you say that Jihad is sacred to Muslims. In fact, many maulvis say that "Jihad Islam key Choti Hay".

However, when people are asked, "what is Jihad?", everyone gives a different answer even though everyone is agreed that Jihad is sacred and obligatory. So what is your interpretation of Jihad in practice? Struggling against corruption by not offering 50-rupee bribe to the sarkari karkoon? Or blowing up the Data Darbar and killing the kabar-parast mushriqun?

And I can give you many, many examples of this type of things for numerous "sacred" Islamic concepts. For each concept, there is almost universal consensus that it is Sacred in THEORY, but there is almost zero consensus on what exactly that concept might mean in PRACTICE.

As an example, I am sure you will agree that the concept of Jannah (Jannat) is VERY IMPORTANT in Islam. In fact, going to Jannah is universally considered the ultimate goal of every momim musalman. But what is this Jannah? Where is it? What are we to expect to find there? On issues like this, everybody seems to have their own ideas and nobody seems to agree with one another. Here is one Mowla's (Shaykh Meraj Rabbani Rashdi) interpretation of what happens in Jannah:

Tharki Wahabi Molvi - YouTube

Do you agree with this view? We all know that Jannah is a sacred concept in Islam, but is this your view of Jannah? Is this the only reason why you want to go there? And if so, what are you willing to do in this Duniyah to achieve the described life-style in Jannah in the Akhira.

I would request all my Pakistani Bhaiyon to reflect on PRACTICAL applications before regurgitating theoretical concepts of an Islam they might not have understood very well.


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## Imam Bukhari

Ticker said:


> ... the Indian government has to provide her people equal political and economic opportunities. In the absence of such dispensation, these movements thrive and thriving they are. When the security forces kill and torture and rape, people revolt. It is this revolt which is taking place and instead of providing them their basic needs the torture and killings increase which forces the Naxals to seek additional protective measures, which apparently they are doing....



Ticker Bhai,

I agree with you that equality of economic and political opportunities are very important for all people everywhere. Without them, people tend to revolt. When security agencies kill, torture and rape, the violence feeds on itself and the revolt either becomes a revolution or a seccessionist movement. 

If we look inside --once again-- our own gireban, we can see that this is precisely what is happening here (especially the women from 2:51 onwards):

Balochistan and Kashmir - YouTube

If you want more details on this subject, I would recommend that you visit Al Jazeera:

Balochistan: Pakistan's other war - Al Jazeera World - Al Jazeera English

Something to think about. Apnay ghar may aag lagee hay, aur hum doosron kay ghar par paani chhidak rahen hain.


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## INDIC

Tinu said:


> The movement became violent in 1969 and in some instances police had to resort to firing to control the mobs and the army had to be called in. Currently, the violence is limited. However, most of the local and even other Indian leaders are predicting that the movement is likely to turn violent.


 
I visit Hyderabad very often, everything is peaceful here apart from some postors for demand of Telangana. You are fantasizing too much.


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## Nassr

Gigawatt said:


> I visit Hyderabad very often, everything is peaceful here apart from some postors for demand of Telangana. You are fantasizing too much.



Calm before the storm ...... eh



Imam Bukhari said:


> Ticker Bhai,
> 
> I agree with you that equality of economic and political opportunities are very important for all people everywhere. Without them, people tend to revolt. When security agencies kill, torture and rape, the violence feeds on itself and the revolt either becomes a revolution or a seccessionist movement.
> 
> If we look inside --once again-- our own gireban, we can see that this is precisely what is happening here (especially the women from 2:51 onwards):
> 
> Something to think about. Apnay ghar may aag lagee hay, aur hum doosron kay ghar par paani chhidak rahen hain.



Bukhari Sir Ji, We are discussing India here. Lets restrict ourselves to India. Please use other threads to discuss this aspect.


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## INDIC

Nassr said:


> Calm before the storm ...... eh


 
Is this some prophecy clown Zaid Hamid saw in his dreams.


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## Nassr

Gigawatt said:


> Is this some prophecy clown Zaid Hamid saw in his dreams.



No sir, neither it is from the famous Mumbaikar Bal thakeray.

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## Nassr

Response of Indian leaders after Gujarat burning of thousands of Muslims .........

I do not know what face I will show them (the world) now after the shameful events in Gujarat.

-- Atal Behari Vajpayee, during his visit to Ahmedabad on April 4, 2002; in The Hindustan Times.

My one message to the chief minister is that he should follow raj dharma. A ruler should not make any discrimination between his subjects on the basis of caste, creed and religion.

-- Atal Behari Vajpayee, during his visit to Ahmedabad on April 4, 2002; in The Hindustan Times.

&#8220;Let Muslims understand that their real safety lies in the goodwill of the majority&#8221;.
-- RSS resolution at its Bangalore meet, March 18, 2002.

&#8220;After the post-Godhra spontaneous Hindu upsurge the party will have to consider the people&#8217;s strong feelings on Hindutva and nationalism&#8221;.
-- Bharat Pandya, BJP MLA, quoted in India Today, March 18, 2002. The report added that at a closed-door meeting with party president Jana Krishnamurthy in Ahmedabad, MLA after MLA of the BJP talked of reverting to the Hindutva track). 

&#8220;Now, it is the end of tolerance. If the Muslims do not learn, it will be very harmful for them.&#8221;
-- Harish Bhai Bhatt, VHP leader, quoted in Mid-Day from a New York Times report, March 6, 2002

&#8220;He (Narendra Modi) has salvaged the party&#8217;s credibility and honour in a way no one has done after we came to power in the Centre.&#8221;
-- A Union minister from the BJP, not identified by name, quoted in The Telegraph, March 6, 2002.

&#8220;Modi was the only one who had the guts to defend what happened in his state without batting an eyelid or being red-faced. He did not say one thing one day and another the next day.&#8221;
-- &#8216;BJP sources&#8217;, not identified by name, quoted in The Telegraph, March 6, 2002.

&#8220;(T)he presence of the army has definitely helped as no major violence has been reported today,&#8221; he said even as parts of the walled city were burning after arsonists and mobs went on a rampage during curfew relaxation&#8221;.
-- Ashok Narayan, Gujarat&#8217;s Additional Home Secretary, in The Indian Express, March 4, 2002.

&#8220;From Godhra to Ahmedabad, in so many places, there are so many incidents of people being burnt alive, including helpless women and children. This is a blot on nation&#8217;s forehead and has grievously harmed India&#8217;s image in the eyes of the world&#8221;.
-- Atal Bihari Vajpayee, Prime Minister of India, statement on March 3, 2002. 

&#8220;Let Muslims look upon Ram as their hero and the communal problems will all be over&#8221;.
-- RSS mouthpiece, Organisor, June 20, 1971.


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## Jinx1

Nassr said:


> No sir, neither it is from the famous Mumbaikar Bal thakeray.



I was recently talking with some one in Bombay. There they call him Bal-less Tharki.


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## Imam Bukhari

Nassr said:


> Bukhari Sir Ji, We are discussing India here. Lets restrict ourselves to India. Please use other threads to discuss this aspect.



Nasser Bhai,

This is precisely my point. We waste too much time discussing India, India, India, and so we do not have enough time left to investigate and realize what is going on in our country.

And it is not just I who says this. Shaykh Tauseef Rahman also says that Pakistanis waste so much time obsessing about the status of Islam in India, that we have become blind to the rapid spread of unislamic practices (shirk & kufar) right here at home. You can see what the Shaykh says--
Jihad e kashmir by Sheikh tauseef ur rehman kashmir mai jari jihad ki shari haisiyat - YouTube

As you can see (at 3:50), he says... aur jau lahore say utth kar India may ladnay kay liyay jaata hay and aur kaytah hay "main tawheed kay liyay larh raha hoon", usko poochho, "tujhay lahore may phailta hua shirk aur Kufar nazar nahin aata?". Apnay ghar may aad lagee hay.....


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## Abu Zolfiqar

*Terror and Impunity in Kashmir - FPIF

In 1991, the historian Alastair Lamb wrote that “it has become apparent that the Indian Republic is faced with, at least in that part of the Vale of Kashmir which it occupies, what can only be described as a terminal colonial situation.”*

*This terminal colonial situation has lasted for 25 years and has brought suffering and violence on an unimaginable scale to the civilian population. Although the violence has been seared into Kashmiri memory, it is forgotten or deliberately obscured in India and the rest of the world. Now, finally, these stories are being told and shared with new audiences, in large part due to new social media. Evidence of massive human rights abuses by Indian forces is being documented in credible and compelling detail. In their scope and nature, these abuses meet the legal definition of crimes against humanity.*

Indian-administered Kashmir remains one of the most highly militarized regions in the world. The history of military violence—disappearances, shootings, extrajudicial killings, torture, arson, and rape—has touched virtually every home and family in the valley. The total number of those killed, maimed, and otherwise harmed will probably never be known. To date, no one has been held accountable for these atrocities.

National security laws like the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA), in effect in Kashmir since 1990, guarantee impunity to military personnel accused of these crimes. Against this continuing chronicle of military terror, the Kashmiri movement for justice and rights offers a profoundly moral voice. Grief and love give the families the courage to confront and challenge this most paradoxical of all systems of terror—a military regime in service of a country that bills itself as the “world’s largest democracy.”

*The Association of Parents of Disappeared Persons (APDP) has brought together hundreds of victims’ families united by a quest for truth and justice. Founded in 1994 by Parveena Ahangar, one of the mothers of the disappeared, it has become a rallying point for victims and survivors. Guided by the concerns of the families, APDP’s mandate has expanded to cover crimes like extrajudicial killings, torture, and rape. It has also pioneered the legal strategy that offers the best chance of ending these abuses and of bringing the abusers to justice. Meticulous documentation of the disappearances and other abuses in collaboration with the UN High Commission on Human Rights has produced a detailed record. It provides documentary evidence that may serve in any future tribunals on crimes against humanity in Kashmir. Such accountability is essential to any kind of peace settlement.*

*The Right to Kill*

Among those seeking justice for the crimes committed against them is Masooda Parveen, whose husband Ghulam Mohiuddin Regoo, a businessman and lawyer, was murdered by the army in 1998.* Arrested by the army and pro-India militants at the instigation of a business rival, he was tortured first in his own home and then in the army camp where he was taken for “interrogation.” He died under torture. To conceal the evidence, a landmine was tied to his body and exploded. The broken pieces were left by the front door of the house two days later.*

Traumatized and left with the responsibility of bringing up her young children singlehandedly, Masooda Parveen was nevertheless determined to seek justice. *Since the courts in Kashmir were completely under the domination of the army, she chose to go to the Supreme Court of India and petitioned for compensation for the wrongful death of her husband. The petition was refused twice before the Supreme Court agreed to consider it.*

The army’s response in court is remarkable for its callousness. The best interpretation of its version of the events is that the army used Regoo as a human shield. Interrogation, according to the army’s account, revealed that Regoo was a Pakistani-trained militant. “He had offered to lead a patrol to a hideout,” the army testified. “A patrol was deputed to move to the hideout accompanied by Regoo. He stopped the patrol 50 meters short of the hideout. After ensuring that he was not in a position to escape, Regoo was released with a direction to go forward. When he tried to create an opening, an explosion resulted leading to his death.”

In 2007, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the army. It also reaffirmed the provisions of AFSPA that give military personnel the right to kill on suspicion, maintaining that the law was essential to upholding Indian rule in Kashmir. Masooda Parveen, who now identifies as Kashmiri rather than Indian, reflects on the outcome: “After this judgment, how does India claim me as its citizen? By what right?” She is haunted by the memory of her husband’s death. “What did he ever do to them? They killed him, then they mutilated his body.” She feels that her struggle for justice is also fought for the many others who have suffered as much or even more than she has, but are forced to remain silent and helpless. Echoing a universal sentiment among the victims and survivors of Indian army violence, she says that she will fight for justice until the end of her life.

*In May 2012, the Supreme Court again upheld the principle of military impunity in the Pathribal fake encounter case. “Fake encounter” is a term from the coded lexicon of Indian policing and counterinsurgency, widely understood to denote a staged shootout with militants—in other words, an extrajudicial killing by the police or army.*

*In March 2000, in Pathribal, five Kashmiri villagers were abducted and killed by the army, and passed off as the militants responsible for the infamous Chattisinghpora massacre, where armed militants killed 35 Sikhs. Since the killings took place just before U.S. President Bill Clinton’s visit to India, they attracted international attention. The identity of the killers was somewhat blurred, as the militants wore Indian army uniforms and shouted Hindu slogans during the killing, according to the sole surviving eyewitness, who was quoted in an Amnesty International report in 2000. An Indian army post less than half a mile from the village took no action to prevent the massacre, which unfolded over three hours.*

A few days after the massacre, five men were killed by the military in an “encounter” in the Anantnag area of south Kashmir.

*The army claimed that the slain men were the “foreign militants” responsible for the massacre. The bodies were buried and the officers in charge commended. Protests by villagers in the area, however, brought to light the fact that the military had abducted 17 local men, and that those killed by the army were not militants but local farmers.*

*The killings continued. On April 3, police opened fire on a group of protestors at Barakpora, killing eight, including the son of one of the missing persons.*

The mass protests continued and resulted in an investigation and the exhumation of the bodies, which were identified through DNA testing as civilians from Pathribal village.

In 2003, the inquiry into the encounter was handed over to the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI), which submitted its report in 2006. On the basis of the report, the CBI filed kidnapping and murder charges against five army officers belonging to the 7th Rashtriya Rifles.

The army’s response was to invoke the AFSPA. The matter went before the Supreme Court, which in May 2012 gave the army the choice of surrendering the officers to face trial in a civilian court or to institute a court martial. After much delay, the army chose the latter option. Amnesty International noted that “by giving the first option to the army for a court martial, this ruling reinforces immunity from prosecution in other cases of alleged extra-judicial killings in Jammu and Kashmir…Instead of upholding the universal and constitutional right to life, the Supreme Court chose to rely on emergency laws which provide excessive powers, as well as impunity, to the army.”

Under AFSPA, military personnel cannot be prosecuted without permission sanctioned by the central government in Delhi. There is no recorded case of such permission being granted since the beginning of the conflict. Responding to Right to Information (RTI) applications filed by a Kashmiri NGO, the Jammu and Kashmir Home Department affirmedthat “no sanction for prosecution has been intimated by the Ministry of Home Affairs and Ministry of Defense to the State Government from 1990-2011 under the J&K Armed Forces Special Powers Act.”

*The court martial in the Pathribal fake encounter case opened in September 2012. Fear, intimidation, and the absence of information about court dates and locations made it impossible for the testimonies of the families of the victims and local witnesses to be recorded.* On January 23, 2014, the army closed the court martial, with an inexplicable statement: “The evidence recorded could not establish a prime-facie case against any of the accused persons but clearly established that it was a joint operation by the Police and the Army, based on specific intelligence.”

*De Facto Impunity*

Police have been implicated in abuses alongside the armed forces. They enjoy a similar climate of impunity.

*One such case concerns the death of Tufail Ahmed Mattoo, a 17-year-old schoolboy who was killed when he was struck by a tear gas shell at close quarters in June 2010. He was returning home from school when he walked past protestors demanding justice for three young men who had been abducted and killed by the army and passed off as “foreign militants” a few months earlier.*

On June 11, police and paramilitaries were firing tear gas shells and baton-charging the protestors. A press note prepared by Tufail’s father, Mohammed Ashraf Mattoo, gives an eyewitness’ version of the killing: “The woman, who is sole ‘official eye witness’ of the above case, narrates the heart wrenching incident of Tufail’s killing,” Matoo wrote. “‘It was 11th June, a Friday. There was a loud bang,’ she says. The boom that sounded like that of a grenade explosion ‘was actually sound of a tear gas shell being fired.’ She says that moments before hearing the explosion, ‘I saw three boys running towards the Gani Memorial from Syed Sahib Shrine. One of them was Tufail. He was being closely chased by the policemen. Tufail entered the gate of the stadium but could not go too far as he slipped on the mud. Two Jammu and Kashmir police officers then came out of the Gypsy (police van) and followed him to the ground,’ she says. They were hurling abuses at him in Kashmiri, saying “we will not leave you.” The officers aimed at Tufail from close range and fired a tear gas shell straight at him.’ The officers went near his body, she claims. ‘I managed to catch hold of arm of the officer who had fired at Tufail and started slapping his face. But another officer who had ordered the former to shoot pushed me to the ground and freed him from my hold. They escaped in the same white colored Gypsy they had arrived in,’ she says. ‘The tear gas shell shattered Tufail’s skull and killed him instantly.’”

When the family went to the local police station, the police refused to file an incident report. The family then went to the local court, which ordered the police to record and investigate the incident. A year later, when the police investigation had not made any progress, the family petitioned the High Court in Srinagar, which ordered a special police investigation. “In November 2012,” according to Amnesty International, “after more than a year, the police team submitted a case closure report to a Srinagar trial court, without informing the Mattoo family, saying that the perpetrators of the crime were ‘untraceable.’ The closure report said there was insufficient evidence available to identify Tufail ‘s killers. When the Mattoo family learned about the police report, they challenged the closure of the investigation before the J&K High Court. The family said the investigation disregarded crucial evidence and eyewitness testimonies, including a post-mortem report submitted by a team of doctors stating that the cause of death was a tear gas shell.”

*In the course of the police investigation, the eyewitness who confronted the policeman who shot Tufail was able to identify him in a line up. Yet the investigation report dismissed her testimony with two self-contradictory statements about the suspect she picked: first, they said that the man was actually a tailor, not a policeman; and second, they said that he was a policeman but was not on duty at that location on that day.* On February 14, 2014, the Jammu and Kashmir High Court ordered the police to reopen their investigation into the killing of Tufail Ahmed Mattoo.

Mohammed Ashraf Matoo understands clearly what is at stake in his struggle for justice for his son: “I am defending the right of every citizen in a democracy to get justice,” he says. He argues that justice is a basic human right, and human rights are for all, regardless of religion, race, or language.

Despite the silence of the international community and the active obstruction of justice by the Indian government, courts, and army, Kashmiri initiatives for justice by groups like the APDP are the foundation on which international criminal prosecutions can be built. The State Human Rights Commission (SHRC) in Kashmir, despite many shortcomings and a lack of resources, has begun investigating the crimes that have gone unpunished for so long. It has investigated thousands of unmarked mass graves in border districts. The forgotten massacres of the early 1990s and the mass rapes at Kunan Poshpora are also being reinvestigated and new prosecutions opened in Kashmiri courts.

*Kashmir and International Justice*

*The Kashmiri emphasis on discovering the truth and seeking justice for these crimes is consistent with international human rights law. Given the scale of the human rights violations and the persistence of impunity, the only possibility for justice is through international criminal prosecutions. Such prosecutions will be an essential part of any negotiated and peaceful settlement of the Kashmir conflict.*

International law presents at least an ideal of justice that cannot be subverted by impunity and claims of national sovereignty. It has come to recognize that victims of grave violations of human rights and society at large have a right to see justice done; a right to know the truth; an entitlement to compensation and also to nonmonetary forms of restitution; and a right to new, reorganized, and accountable institutions. It must be recognized in Kashmir that bringing human rights abusers to justice is an essential part of the peacemaking process itself.

*There is no statute of limitations in international law on war crimes and crimes against humanity. Over the past two decades, the concerns raised by victims of massive human rights abuses—in situations of war, internal conflict, and political repression—have become the driving force behind the creation of international human rights mechanisms. In post-conflict societies from Guatemala to Cambodia, abusers have been brought to justice with the intervention of the international human rights community in collaboration with victims, survivors, local NGOs, and courts. Kashmir remains the unfortunate exception.*

*This is due in large part to the enormous amount of support India has been able to maintain internationally for its version of the conflict, even though the UN recognizes Kashmir as a disputed territory and UN Security Council resolutions dating back to 1948 call for a plebiscite to determine the future of Kashmir. The Indian version—that the insurgency is the product of Pakistani interference alone—is a convenient fiction.*

The number of militants fighting against Indian rule has never been more than a few thousand, and is now not more than 200 or 300, according to the Indian army. The problem is not the insurgency, as India would have the world believe. *The insurgency itself is a symptom of the problem, which is the denial of the basic human right of self-determination to the Kashmiri people. The massive military presence is meant to terrorize the civilian population into giving up the struggle for Azadi, or freedom.*

Meanwhile, Kashmiris are prevented from speaking out. *Local Kashmiri television channels have been banned since 2010. *This regime of state terror and impunity has flourished in the absence of any serious efforts by the international community to hold India accountable for its abuses. The active role of the UN in investigating war crimes in Sri Lanka contrasts sharply with its hands-off attitude when it comes to Kashmir.

Like the UN, the United States too has preferred to turn a blind eye to the abuses in Kashmir, passing up opportunities to bring Indian military officers accused of such crimes to justice when they were present on U.S. soil. Although in the run-up to his election in 2008, U.S. President Barack Obama acknowledged the need for a resolution to the conflict as the basis for a lasting peace in the region, the idea was quietly dropped in the wake of the Indian outcry provoked by his remarks. The U.S. foreign policy consensus seems to hover around the notion of formalizing the status quo, turning the highly militarized Line of Control (LoC) into an international border between India and Pakistan. This proposal ignores the history and dynamics of the conflict. The LoC marks the Ceasefire Line of 1948, where the Indian and Pakistani armies stood at the close of their first war. It divides Kashmir into two parts, administered by India and Pakistan. Much like other partitions and divisions, it is bitterly resented since it divides villages and separates families from each other. The Kashmiris call it the _*khooni lakeer,* _or “line of blood.”

Most workable proposals for the resolution of the conflict recognize the role the division has played in fueling the conflict. In its place, they propose a similar series of steps: demilitarization and free movement across the LoC; the release of all political prisoners; an end to all repressive laws that limit freedom of speech, expression, and association; accountability and justice for human rights abuses through mechanisms such as an international criminal tribunal; and the creation within a specifically defined time-frame of a process for determining the future of the region according the wishes of its diverse inhabitants. To these proposals, Kashmiri political scientist Noor Ahmed Baba adds the guiding principle, born out of the uniquely Kashmiri ethos, of turning Kashmir from a conflict zone into a zone of peace between India and Pakistan.

_Shubh Mathur is an Indian anthropologist whose work concerns memory and justice, human rights, the meanings of violence, nations and borders, the death penalty, environmental ethics, South Asia, and neighboring regions. Her first book, *The Everyday Life of Hindu Nationalism*, was published by the Three Essays Collective Press. She is currently working on a collaborative ethnography with the families of the disappeared in Kashmir. More information regarding the Association of the Parents of the Disappeared is available at disappearancesinkashmir.org._

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