# Battle of Longewala- This day...41 years ago!



## StormShadow

On This Day 41 Years Ago , The Pakistan army decided to enter through Longewala (about 80 km from Ramgarh) and then hoped to capture Jaisalmer via Ramgarh. 

*The Longewala outpost was held by Major Kuldip Singh Chandpuri and his 120 men*. Their position was on top of a large sand dune which they had surrounded by barbed wires. The Indian party was in a very strong defensive position due to height of the dune. Also the sandy area was not easily navigable by the vehicles (as well as tanks). *Apart from their usual rifles, the Indian men had only one Jeep mounted M40 anti-tank gun.* *The attacking Pak force had 2800 soldiers, 65 tanks, 138 military vehicles, 5 field guns and 3 anti-aircraft guns.* Pakistani forces, led by Brigadier Tariq Mir, attacked Indian outpost on the intervening night of 4th and 5th December 1971. The attack began at 12:30 in the night.

*In the first wave of attack, the Pak soldiers killed five out of ten camels of the BSF available to the outpost.* Indians had no time to lay a proper minefield -so they hastily laid as many mines as possible near to the outpost. As the column of 65 Pakistani tanks advanced the Indian soldiers patiently held fire. When the tanks were about 20 meters away -the Indians opened fire and using the only anti-tank gun they had they destroyed two foremost tanks in the column.

*The outpost was to get support from Indian Air Force but the IAF plane could not fly because they were not equipped with the night vision. So, the outpost was told either to hold ground until dawn or flee. Major Chandpuris men, brave as they were, decided to defend their post. And they did. They held the advance of Pakistani forces until the sun rose above the horizon.*

That rising sun brought nightmare for the Pakistani troops. The Indian Air Force sent four Hawker Hunter fighter jets to help the Indian soldiers. Pakistani troops had not planned for this. They had thought that they will easily win the outpost in the cover of night. But as the night waned they found IAF jets hovering over their heads. And then began destruction. For Indian jets the Pakistani tanks proved to be sitting ducks. The desert was open, no place to hide, tanks guns were not able to hit the aircraft and were under fire from the ground Indian soldiers. The Pakistani forces sent messages to ask for air support but the Pakistan Air Force was busy elsewhere. So, Indian jets had no resistance at all.

*36 tanks of Pakistan were destroyed or captured, 200 soldiers were killed and 100 military vehicles were destroyed*. Arrival of Indian jets had stopped the advance of Pak army -and when Indian tanks arrived -the Pakistani troops were forced to withdraw from the area.

Major Chandpuris men destroyed 12 tanks whereas 22 tanks were destroyed by the Indian jets. Some of the tanks were captured by Indian forces. The IAF attack was led by Wing Commander M.S. Bawa.

*Courtesy- Facebook/Indian Air Force*

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## Skull and Bones

That was one of the most decisive battle on the 71 war.

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## Srinivas

This Battle is a testimony to the determination of Indian soldiers.

This Battle inspires future generations of soldiers.

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## IndoUS

Loved the movie they made on it forgot the name gonna find it and watch it again.


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## malgudi

IndoUS said:


> Loved the movie they made on it forgot the name gonna find it and watch it again.



Border.

But i have heard that they deviated from most of the facts, especially about the casuality on the Indian side. They have exaggerated the number of deaths on the Indian side apparently.

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## StormShadow

IndoUS said:


> Loved the movie they made on it forgot the name gonna find it and watch it again.


You are talking about Border movie brother...



malgudi said:


> Border.
> 
> But i have heard that they deviated from most of the facts, especially about the casuality on the Indian side. *They have exaggerated the number of deaths* on the Indian side apparently.


Yeah...it was highly dramatized. Infact we lost just 2 men in that battle!

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## IndoUS

^ We took on 2800 soldiers and lost two just shows the bravery of our men, God bless their souls.


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## malgudi

StormShadow said:


> You are talking about Border movie brother...
> 
> 
> Yeah...it was highly dramatized. Infact we lost just 2 men in that battle!



One wikipedia source that I had read sometime back mentioned that we lost only 1.


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## StormShadow

IndoUS said:


> ^ We took on 2800 soldiers and lost two just shows the bravery of our men, *God bless their souls*.


Amen...!!


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## JonAsad

IndoUS said:


> ^ We took on 2800 soldiers and lost two just shows the bravery of our men, God bless their souls.



Unless we were fighting against immortals which is unlikely i find the figures really funny-
Infact i think i am seeing babies talking to each other--

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## AUSTERLITZ

The figures are correct,but mostly because pakistani fire was sporadic.And indians protected by sand dunes.The paksitanis were mostly busy trying for cover against IAF hunters.


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## StormShadow

JonAsad said:


> Unless we were fighting against immortals which is unlikely* i find the figures really funny*-
> Infact i think i am seeing babies talking to each other--


What I find funny is that the attackers whose battle plan was to *have breakfast at Longewala, lunch at Jaisalmer and dinner at Jodhpur[ *LINK ]ended up being breakfast for the Indian Air Force!!

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## JonAsad

AUSTERLITZ said:


> The figures are correct,but mostly because pakistani fire was sporadic.And indians protected by sand dunes.The paksitanis were mostly busy trying for cover against IAF hunters.



Exactly we were firing blanks- while the two dead on your side was natural dead- they died of heart attack-
So the score should be 200 : 0 -

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## AUSTERLITZ

Lol.now u are trolling.
Longewala wasn't really a land battle u are correct.The real heroics by indian troops in a land battle would be asal uttar.


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## janon

JonAsad said:


> Unless we were fighting against immortals which is unlikely i find the figures really funny-
> Infact i think i am seeing babies talking to each other--



Believe me, we find them funnier.

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## karan21

I salute the soldiers of my land India. Jai Hind.


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## Shinigami

4 hawker hunters, 75,000$ each - changed the course of history, played a pivotal role in creating a new nation

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## veekysingh

mera bharat mahan.


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## Mirza Jatt

This battle proves the bravery of Indian soldiers....just 120 men with only 1 anti tank vehicle fought and defeated 2800 men amed with 65 tanks and more than a hundred miltary vehicles. Even to take a decision of standing there without leaving your post needs heart of a lion. amazing. I salute the brave hearts.

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## ajtr

JonAsad said:


> Unless we were fighting against immortals which is unlikely i find the figures really funny-
> Infact i think i am seeing babies talking to each other--


I dont think that figures are unrealistic. A well trenched platoon can hold/delay a large size army.What major kuldeep singh's 120 men did was to hold on larger pakistani force till next daylight. Same thing like kasab and hi men did -they held whole of mumbai police force,navy MARCOS,NSG,ARMY etc for whole 3 days by being well entrenched in hotel taj and at chabbad house.

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## Anony

This is also the very same day when lone but highly praised submarine of Pakistan PNS Gazi was also destroyed by INS Rajput.


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## Abingdonboy

malgudi said:


> Border.
> 
> But i have heard that they deviated from most of the facts, especially about the casuality on the Indian side. They have exaggerated the number of deaths on the Indian side apparently.


Yep there was only 2 losses on the Indian side not the dozens as portrayed in Border. That's Bollywood for you!!

@thread- a great a decisive battle that reads like a Bollywood/Hollywood film but is actually more unbelievable in real life! I cannot think of any other battle in military History that should have been so one-sided for one side (45 tanks and 1000s of soldiers vs 120 dismounted infantry!) but was so one-sided to the other! 120 soldiers vs 45 tanks and 1000s of soldiers- just unbelievable!! 

Everyone of those 120 were heroes I can scarcely imagine how terrified you'd be going up against a better armed and outnumbering force. IA- never surrenders, never says never!! Words fail me......


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## jaiind

when i see or remember border movie.the next thing i will do is i pray for Indian army martyrs of longhenwala.

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## Abingdonboy

Shinigami said:


> 4 hawker hunters, 75,000$ each - changed the course of history, played a pivotal role in creating a new nation



To be fair the IA company still had to hold out through the night. The Hunters couldn't fly at night.


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## Umair Nawaz

StormShadow said:


> On This Day 41 Years Ago , The Pakistan army decided to enter through Longewala (about 80 km from Ramgarh) and then hoped to capture Jaisalmer via Ramgarh.
> 
> *The Longewala outpost was held by Major Kuldip Singh Chandpuri and his 120 men*. Their position was on top of a large sand dune which they had surrounded by barbed wires. The Indian party was in a very strong defensive position due to height of the dune. Also the sandy area was not easily navigable by the vehicles (as well as tanks). *Apart from their usual rifles, the Indian men had only one Jeep mounted M40 anti-tank gun.* *The attacking Pak force had 2800 soldiers, 65 tanks, 138 military vehicles, 5 field guns and 3 anti-aircraft guns.* Pakistani forces, led by Brigadier Tariq Mir, attacked Indian outpost on the intervening night of 4th and 5th December 1971. The attack began at 12:30 in the night.
> 
> *In the first wave of attack, the Pak soldiers killed five out of ten camels of the BSF available to the outpost.* Indians had no time to lay a proper minefield -so they hastily laid as many mines as possible near to the outpost. As the column of 65 Pakistani tanks advanced the Indian soldiers patiently held fire. When the tanks were about 20 meters away -the Indians opened fire and using the only anti-tank gun they had they destroyed two foremost tanks in the column.
> 
> *The outpost was to get support from Indian Air Force but the IAF plane could not fly because they were not equipped with the night vision. So, the outpost was told either to hold ground until dawn or flee. Major Chandpuri&#8217;s men, brave as they were, decided to defend their post. And they did. They held the advance of Pakistani forces until the sun rose above the horizon.*
> 
> That rising sun brought nightmare for the Pakistani troops. The Indian Air Force sent four Hawker Hunter fighter jets to help the Indian soldiers. Pakistani troops had not planned for this. They had thought that they will easily win the outpost in the cover of night. But as the night waned they found IAF jets hovering over their heads. And then began destruction. For Indian jets the Pakistani tanks proved to be sitting ducks. The desert was open, no place to hide, tanks&#8217; guns were not able to hit the aircraft and were under fire from the ground Indian soldiers. The Pakistani forces sent messages to ask for air support but the Pakistan Air Force was busy elsewhere. So, Indian jets had no resistance at all.
> 
> *36 tanks of Pakistan were destroyed or captured, 200 soldiers were killed and 100 military vehicles were destroyed*. Arrival of Indian jets had stopped the advance of Pak army -and when Indian tanks arrived -the Pakistani troops were forced to withdraw from the area.
> 
> Major Chandpuri&#8217;s men destroyed 12 tanks whereas 22 tanks were destroyed by the Indian jets. Some of the tanks were captured by Indian forces. The IAF attack was led by Wing Commander M.S. Bawa.
> 
> *Courtesy- Facebook/Indian Air Force*



another facebook stunt of indian army to get some publicity


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## LURKER

ajtr said:


> I dont think that figures are unrealistic. A well trenched platoon can hold/delay a large size army.What major kuldeep singh's 120 men did was to hold on larger pakistani force till next daylight. Same thing like kasab and hi men did -they held whole of mumbai police force,navy MARCOS,NSG,ARMY etc for whole 3 days by being well entrenched in hotel taj and at chabbad house.



what a stupid analogy

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## Umair Nawaz

jaiind said:


> when i see or remember border movie.the next thing i will do is i pray for Indian army martyrs of longhenwala.



this is called propaganda at its very best!!!!!!!!!


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## black_jack

ajtr said:


> I dont think that figures are unrealistic. A well trenched platoon can hold/delay a large size army.What major kuldeep singh's 120 men did was to hold on larger pakistani force till next daylight. Same thing like kasab and hi men did -they held whole of mumbai police force,navy MARCOS,NSG,ARMY etc for whole 3 days by being well entrenched in hotel taj and at chabbad house.



i wish u should have been victim on 26/11 
G@NDU kasab and company were playing hide n sick.....

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## karan.1970

LURKER said:


> what a stupid analogy




And you are surprised why ??


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## Umair Nawaz

karan.1970 said:


> And you are surprised why ??



aah the school master is back!!!!


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## arp2041

ajtr said:


> I dont think that figures are unrealistic. A well trenched platoon can hold/delay a large size army.What major kuldeep singh's 120 men did was to hold on larger pakistani force till next daylight. Same thing like kasab and hi men did -they held whole of mumbai police force,navy MARCOS,NSG,ARMY etc for whole 3 days by being well entrenched in hotel taj and at chabbad house.





Aunty 

comparing the brave soldiers who were fighting like tigers to the PA (they were seeing eye to eye) to that of Kasab & others who were fighting Gorilla war???

again a big *LOL* to ur post.

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## jaiind

Umair Nawaz said:


> this is called propaganda at its very best!!!!!!!!!



 i think it hurts your ego


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## Umair Nawaz

jaiind said:


> i think it hurts your ego


LOL its not us who make these propaganda movies but u do.
Actually it satisfies yr ego not ours


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## BlueDot_in_Space

ajtr said:


> I dont think that figures are unrealistic. A well trenched platoon can hold/delay a large size army.What major kuldeep singh's 120 men did was to hold on larger pakistani force till next daylight. Same thing like kasab and hi men did -they held whole of mumbai police force,navy MARCOS,NSG,ARMY etc for whole 3 days by being well entrenched in hotel taj and at chabbad house.



Weired thinking, I must say. The former involved soldiers courage and latter cowards taking civilians as human shields. Your above comparison in a way justifies Taliban attack in your cities, at your NAVAL airbase, AF base and Army HQs. Should I compare the talibanis killed at Army HQ to the pakistani soldiers killed in Salala attack? No, I wouldnt do that because both are beyond comparison.

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## Umair Nawaz

arp2041 said:


> Aunty
> 
> comparing the brave *soldiers who were fighting like tigers to the PA *(they were seeing eye to eye) to that of Kasab & others who were fighting Gorilla war???
> 
> again a big *LOL* to ur post.


Its Pak army soldiers yrs talking about not of any dummy or lazy army ie indian army
Its true the courage, motivation n class that our army has yr army cant come even close to it.
So live with it!


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## black_jack

another major attack Operation Trident was carried out on 4-5 December .


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## LURKER

Umair Nawaz said:


> Its Pak army soldiers yrs talking about not of any dummy or lazy army ie indian army
> Its true the courage, motivation n class that our army has yr army cant come even close to it.
> So live with it!



too bad macho mujahids of pak army could not save east pakistan from lazy Indian soldiers

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## Punjabbi Munda

Karachi harbour was hammered this day

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## ajtr

arp2041 said:


> Aunty
> 
> comparing the brave soldiers who were fighting like tigers to the PA (they were seeing eye to eye) to that of Kasab & others who were fighting Gorilla war???
> 
> again a big *LOL* to ur post.


Lol.............even G.Parthsarthy and mahroof raza termed 26/11 attack in military terms as brilliantly planned and executed commando type raid whe they said 26/11 was not a normal terror attack it was more like commando raid.

As for comparing both longewala and 26/11 the reason being to show how difficult is to clear a well entrenched enemy even when numbers are in your favour.If not 26/11 you can also take example of kargil war.even though numbers were in india's favour it took IA/IAF nearly 3 months to clear those peaks.


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## malayalee

Umair Nawaz said:


> Its Pak army soldiers yrs talking about not of any dummy or lazy army ie indian army
> Its true the courage, motivation n class that our army has yr army cant come even close to it.
> So live with it!



our so called 'dummy, lazy army' defeated your so called true courage, motivated and class pakki army in all wars.


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## jaiind




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## Lyrical Mockery

ajtr said:


> Lol.............even G.Parthsarthy and mahroof raza termed 26/11 attack in military terms as brilliantly planned and executed commando type raid whe they said 26/11 was not a normal terror attack it was more like commando raid.



Longewala wasn't a commando style operation. Was it?



ajtr said:


> As for comparing both longewala and 26/11 the reason being to show how difficult is to clear a well entrenched enemy even when numbers are in your favour.If not 26/11 you can also take example of kargil war.even though numbers were in india's favour it took IA/IAF nearly 3 months to clear those peaks.



the kargil comparison is more apt.


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## ajtr

BlueDot_in_Space said:


> Weired thinking, I must say. The former involved soldiers courage and latter cowards taking civilians as human shields. Your above comparison in a way justifies Taliban attack in your cities, at your NAVAL airbase, AF base and Army HQs. Should I compare the talibanis killed at Army HQ to the pakistani soldiers killed in Salala attack? No, I wouldnt do that because both are beyond comparison.


Salala and attack on GHQ cant be considered as successful raid. But both Mehran raid and attack on Kamra airbase was something like brilliantly planned and execute commando type raid in military terms.


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## arp2041

ajtr said:


> Lol.............even G.Parthsarthy and mahroof raza termed 26/11 attack in military terms as brilliantly planned and executed commando type raid whe they said 26/11 was not a normal terror attack it was more like commando raid.
> 
> As for comparing both longewala and 26/11 the reason being to show how difficult is to clear a well entrenched enemy even when numbers are in your favour.If not 26/11 you can also take example of kargil war.even though numbers were in india's favour it took IA/IAF nearly 3 months to clear those peaks.



On both counts u r wrong:

1. Agreed that 26/11 can be termed as masterstroke in military terms, but ultimately it was a Gorilla warfare tactic, same tactic which even the world superpower is finding hard to beat in Afghanistan, besides in 26/11 it was more about saving human lives than killing terrorists.

2. In Kargil the regulars (or irregulars whatever u may like to call) were holding high ground (which is the best position strategically) from where even a stone dropped can make huge damage to any human while IA was countering them from ground i.e. they were easily visible to the enemy & the enemy didn't had to be "Arjuns" to kill a IA soldier, besides IAF was also unable to utilize it's firepower completely as there mandate was not to go beyond LOC when the peaks occupied were on LOC itself.

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## ajtr

Lyrical Mockery said:


> Longewala wasn't a commando style operation. Was it?


nope it wasnt and i never said that.all i 've been saying is that how difficult is to clear a small size well entrenched enemy even when numbers are in your favour.Thats where mumbai attack came into pic where marcos and nsg had to clear room by room on every floor both in taj and oberoi hotels .





> the kargil comparison is more apt.


i gave kargil example just coz indians seems too sensitive about 26/11.


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## KRAIT

In 26/11, Indian security forces were supposed to carry out operation to avoid or minimize civilian casualties. This affect the entire counter strategy in hostage scenario. They can't just bomb the entire hotel as civilians were also there. They had to kill the terrorists AND save the hostages.

In case of Longewala, there was no such concern for Pak army. They don't have to save any hostage along with killing the enemy. All they had to do is kill those 120 soldiers by anything and anyway possible. 2800 soldiers and 65 tanks against 120 men and one anti tank vehicle, ask any military man, he will say both are completely different scenario. 

Weird and idiotic analogy is used.

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## Umair Nawaz

malayalee said:


> our so called 'dummy, lazy army' defeated your so called true courage, motivated and class pakki army in all wars.



All Wars 
This is Pakistan's Military Forum not any indian forum or media where u can change the facts of history by twisting the historical facts.
Bottom line is that we won 1948's war and 1965's wars but only lost 1971's war because yr great n peaceful gov had back stabbed us in East Pak by inter fairing into the internal matters of our country!!.
This the truth live with it!.


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## Lyrical Mockery

ajtr said:


> nope it wasnt and i never said that.all i 've been saying is that how difficult is to clear a small size well entrenched enemy even when numbers are in your favour.Thats where mumbai attack came into pic where marcos and nsg had to clear room by room on every floor both in taj and oberoi hotels .


That is true. 





> i gave kargil example just coz indians seems too sensitive about 26/11.


well i am not. for me it is not India's 9/11 or the worst attack(though the style was). There have been countless terrorist attacks in India, why should i be sensitive about just one of 'em?

anyway, let's be back to topic.

I think Longewala was a win for army and air-force combined. without AF, the men on ground would have eventually been overrunned, and without these men halting the attack till morning, Jaisalmer would have been in Pakistani hands.


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## ajtr

arp2041 said:


> On both counts u r wrong:
> 
> 1. Agreed that 26/11 can be termed as masterstroke in military terms, but ultimately it was a Gorilla warfare tactic, same tactic which even the world superpower is finding hard to beat in Afghanistan, besides in 26/11 it was more about saving human lives than killing terrorists.
> 
> 2. In Kargil the regulars (or irregulars whatever u may like to call) were holding high ground (which is the best position strategically) from where even a stone dropped can make huge damage to any human while IA was countering them from ground i.e. they were easily visible to the enemy & the enemy didn't had to be "Arjuns" to kill a IA soldier, besides IAF was also unable to utilize it's firepower completely as there mandate was not to go beyond LOC when the peaks occupied were on LOC itself.


nope on both counts its you who is reading it wrong.

All i said from very first post is that *its very difficult to clear an well entrenched enemy even if numbers are in your favour.*

but then when just mention of 26/11 make your brain behave like lunatic then its not my problem


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## karan.1970

ajtr said:


> i gave kargil example just coz indians seems too sensitive about 26/11.



Actually multiple attempts of Pakistan to clear Siachen heights from Indian Army would be a more apt comparison with Longewala since in both cases, the entrenched defendants managed to defeat the numerically superior attacking forces. Unlike in Kargil and also 26/11 where the defendants were eventually routed..


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## Umair Nawaz

ajtr said:


> Salala and attack on GHQ cant be considered as successful raid. But both Mehran raid and attack on Kamra airbase was something like brilliantly planned and execute commando type raid in military terms.



The best military raid so far interns of Security lapse (by the host country), planing,execution n coordination in terms of military was the Mumbai Saga!!!!

Who r u actually a Pakistani or Indian seriously!!!


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## Umair Nawaz

LURKER said:


> too bad macho mujahids of pak army could not save east pakistan from lazy Indian soldiers



Only when u had back stabbed us by inter fairing into the internal matters of our country n by blocking us by air n sea.
Rest even the war had not been started if it was not for this reason of foreign hand in East Pak.


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## ajtr

Lyrical Mockery said:


> That is true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well i am not. for me it is not India's 9/11 or the worst attack(though the style was). There have been countless terrorist attacks in India, why should i be sensitive about just one of 'em?


When the 26/11 attack was still in progress i tink on 27th nov. in one of the news interviews both mahroof raza and G.parthasarthy had said then that its not any terror attack its a millitary style commando raid and they were surprised that PM office is calling it as terror attack or india's 9/11.What they clearly said that mumbai has been militarily attacked.



> anyway, let's be back to topic.
> 
> I think Longewala was a win for army and air-force combined. without AF, the men on ground would have eventually been overrunned, and without these men halting the attack till morning, Jaisalmer would have been in Pakistani hands.


Its the IAF that saved the days for army.


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## arp2041

ajtr said:


> nope on both counts its you who is reading it wrong.
> 
> All i said from very first post is that *its very difficult to clear an well entrenched enemy even if numbers are in your favour.*
> 
> but then when just mention of 26/11 make your brain behave like lunatic then its not my problem



OK, I am not getting emotional when u say about 26/11, read my posts again & u will understand that this line of urs - "its very difficult to clear an well entrenched enemy even if numbers are in your favour." doesn't make Longewala comparable to either 26/11 or Kargil or any other eg. u like to make, they are totally different cases strategically/militarily.

I will like to summarize though:

Longewalla - Direct 3rd gen warfare in which Nos./weapons/equipment are everything, even than PA lost.

26/11 - 4th gen asymmetric warfare in which Indian forces were more interested in saving human life rather than killing terrorists while Terrorists were playing Gorilla tactics of *hide-attack-make human shield-run*, thats why they were able to hold for 2 & a half days.

Kargil - IA was against PA which was occupying HIGH GROUNDS (best position in any war) while IAF was not able to use it's full potential (just guest appearance).

The latter two can't be compared to the former any which way, PERIOD.


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## PARAS

Umair Nawaz said:


> All Wars
> This is Pakistan's Military Forum not any indian forum or media where u can change the facts of history by twisting the historical facts.
> Bottom line is that we won 1948's war and 1965's wars but only lost 1971's war because yr great n peaceful gov had back stabbed us in East Pak by inter fairing into the internal matters of our country!!.
> This the truth live with it!.



You got your arses spanked in all wars and we know it gives you sleepless nights. Live with it ! P@kis are really very insane


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## ajtr

karan.1970 said:


> Actually multiple attempts of Pakistan to clear Siachen heights from Indian Army would be a more apt comparison with Longewala since in both cases, the entrenched defendants managed to defeat the numerically superior attacking forces. Unlike in Kargil and also 26/11 where the defendants were eventually routed..


i'll still say 26/11 and world is witness to it.


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## Bratva

War of 1971 is filled with stories of valour and incompetence on both PA and IA side . On one side, Pak Army was bogged down in such circumstances and on the other side Brigadir Tajammul Malik with 3000 soldiers hold 20,000 Soldiers of Indian army and complete ariel spport of IAF without any resistance from PAF in battle of Hilli for straight 3 weeks until Fake tiger niazi order the surrender. Hands off to Indian soldiers for utilizing a strong position efficiently and displaying extra valour and courage in Burewala bu

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## karan.1970

ajtr said:


> i'll still say 26/11 and world is witness to it.



The gaps in your comparison are pretty obvious. Longewala and Siachen are both military against military in a war zone where as 26/11 was a guerrilla attack/ Hostage situation. Air force played a crucial role in both Longewala and Siachen where as its role was non existent in 26/11. And finally in Longewala and Siachen the defenders managed to hold out against the attacking force where as in 26/11 (just like in GHQ, Mehran and Kamra attacks) the guerrilla force that was holding out got eventually vanquished..


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## ajtr

arp2041 said:


> OK, I am not getting emotional when u say about 26/11, read my posts again & u will understand that this line of urs - "its very difficult to clear an well entrenched enemy even if numbers are in your favour." doesn't make Longewala comparable to either 26/11 or Kargil or any other eg. u like to make, they are totally different cases strategically/militarily.
> 
> I will like to summarize though:
> 
> Longewalla - Direct 3rd gen warfare in which Nos./weapons/equipment are everything, even than PA lost.
> 
> 26/11 - 4th gen asymmetric warfare in which Indian forces were more interested in saving human life rather than killing terrorists while Terrorists were playing Gorilla tactics of *hide-attack-make human shield-run*, thats why they were able to hold for 2 & a half days.
> 
> Kargil - IA was against PA which was occupying HIGH GROUNDS (best position in any war) while IAF was not able to use it's full potential (just guest appearance).
> 
> The latter two can't be compared to the former any which way, PERIOD.


longewala 120 *well entrenched* men of IA delayed PA advance till morning even when numbers and equipment were in favour of PA.

26/11- 8 men *well entrenched *in taj and oberoi hotels and chabbad house held on against whole mumbai police, IA,NSG,MARCOS for almost 3 days.

Kargil-NLI men were so *well entrenched* that it took whole might of IA and IAF to clear them in almost 3 months.

Now do you see the similarities.


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## Peshwa

Umair Nawaz said:


> Only when u had back stabbed us by inter fairing into the internal matters of our country n by blocking us by air n sea.
> Rest even the war had not been started if it was not for this reason of foreign hand in East Pak.



I think you expect too much from your enemies...

Its only back stabbing if we were your friends...enemies are meant to **** you up...and we did exactly that...

As for blocking air and sea routes....do you really expect Indians to fight on your terms?
We hit u where it hurts...thats why it hurts...

The problem with Pakistanis is that instead of accepting that you were truly beaten by a superior and organized force and take learnings for future, some of you try to rationalize your loss...
Indians have to accept their defeat by the Chonese....we did exactly that...learned from our mistakes...

Its time you do the same instead of whining..


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## ajtr

mafiya said:


> War of 1971 is filled with stories of valour and incompetence on both PA and IA side . On one side, Pak Army was bogged down in such circumstances and on the other side *Brigadir Tajammul Malik with 3000 soldiers hold 20,000 Soldiers of Indian army and complete ariel spport of IAF without any resistance from PAF in battle of Hilli for straight 3 weeks *until Fake tiger niazi order the surrender. Hands off to Indian soldiers for utilizing a strong position efficiently and displaying extra valour and courage in Burewala bu


Thats valour deserves more awards and appreciation than the battle of longewala.
comparison can be made in a sense if i make valor of Brigadir Tajammul Malik as sun then Major kuldip singh chandpuri's valour will be like a lamp.


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## Umair Nawaz

PARAS said:


> You got your arses spanked in all wars and we know it gives you sleepless nights. Live with it ! P@kis are really very insane




Another brain farts n brainwashed Enemy individual.
We won 1948 war and 1965 war u had only won 1971 1999 was just a conflict at its best not a full scale war still the result was not very decisive as Pakistan in the end held on to he tiger hill that it had captured during conflict, which is the highest point in the area n gives a massive advantage to its beholder.So now we can launch again an attack better by utilizing this advantage in future inshallah!!!


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## KRAIT

Leave it guys. Why do you all want to hear excuses and comparison with people who don't see the obvious difference between two armies with no civilians vs militant attack and hostage situation ?

Sometimes Indian leaders' and security forces' words are taken as gospel whereas they discard it when its against them and weaken their point. 

Its just face saving contest for them. Indian soldiers at Longewala never surrendered even when they were just 120 whereas 90,000 surrendered.

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## rockstarIN

Umair Nawaz said:


> Another brain farts n brainwashed Enemy individual.
> We won 1948 war and 1965 war u had only won 1971 1999 was just a conflict at its best not a full scale war still the result was not very decisive as Pakistan in the end held on to he tiger hill that it had captured during conflict, which is the highest point in the area n gives a massive advantage to its beholder.So now we can launch again an attack better by utilizing this advantage in future inshallah!!!



No man you won 1971, the comparable courage of fight as same as Longevala is 93k man strategically surrendered and was not paid even a penny to go to west pakistan from east pakistan. Damn adventage..


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## ajtr

karan.1970 said:


> The gaps in your comparison are pretty obvious. Longewala and Siachen are both military against military in a war zone where as 26/11 was a guerrilla attack/ Hostage situation. Air force played a crucial role in both Longewala and Siachen where as its role was non existent in 26/11. And finally in Longewala and Siachen the defenders managed to hold out against the attacking force where as in 26/11 (just like in GHQ, Mehran and Kamra attacks) the guerrilla force that was holding out got eventually vanquished..


Mehran and kamra raids were nothing in comparison to 26/11. 26/11 guys attacked in different country where as mehran terrorists attacked in their own.I still agree with G.Parthasarthy that 26/11 was military attack which was termed as terror attack to brush under the carpet just like other terror attacks.hence it is comparable to longewala and kargil and siachen.


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## Windjammer

*

Bharti Propganda Busted. *


The battle of Longewala is an inspiring tale of courage, determination and grit against all odds. JP Dutta captured this story in his film &#65533;Border&#65533; that was highly appreciated. But some war veterans have challenged this story after 37 years.

THE BATTLE of Longewala is part of army folklore. This is a fairy tale of 100 odd soldiers and their steely resolve, which forced an entire Pakistani brigade, backed by an armoured regiment of 45 tanks, to retreat in the 1971 war. This fascinating story was also captured on celluloid in the film Border, directed by JP Dutta. The battle of Longewala has been told and retold in military journals and is held out as a shining example to students graduating from the military academies. The sheer valour displayed by Major Kuldeep Singh Chandpuri and his alpha team is just an unmatched feat.

*But some war veterans have challenged this story after 37 years. Major General (retd), Atma Singh Hansara, told Hindustan Times in an interview, I dispute the ground battle completely. It is mockery of army ethos. No ground battle was fought and the army had merely rehearsed it on a sand model after the ceasefire to cover up the incompetence of senior military commanders. *

_Air marshal, MS Bawa, who was directly involved in the war, also agrees with Hansara. He says, This is a challenge. There was no contact between the enemy and the army. He further said that the Pakistani thrust was blunted entirely by air action alone_.

This controversy made me go through some facts related to the battle. It is very hard for me to believe, as the story of Longewala has motivated several youngsters to join the forces. I tried to read the available journals, articles, magazines and accounts of war heroes to know the truth.

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## KRAIT

So someone gave terrorists military training for 26/11. I wonder why they defend against allegations of involvement of state actors in 26/11 ? Who could have trained Kasab and his buddies ?

Now same people who question Indian army general's statement over state supported terrorism by neighbor, they discard it and ask for proof, whereas deny the Patton tanks' wreckage. 

This thread is turning in funny direction.


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## KRAIT

26/11 and Mehran can't be compared. One involved attack by terrorists on a *HOTEL with civilians with minimum security *while other was attack on a *MILITARY base which is supposed to be guarded with maximum security.*


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## ajtr

Windjammer said:


> *
> 
> Bharti Propganda Busted. *
> 
> He further said that the Pakistani thrust was blunted entirely by air action alone.


Thats what i said before that IAF saved the days for IA at longowala.
As for Indian war time propaganda,its nothing new.Indians have habit of making border type movies on propaganda stories like one was made on prathvi raj chauhan in which it was shown he kills Ghauri in the end.Indians have habit to make heros out of zeros.

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## Umair Nawaz

Peshwa said:


> I think you expect too much from your enemies...
> 
> Its only back stabbing if we were your friends...enemies are meant to **** you up...and we did exactly that...
> 
> As for blocking air and sea routes....do you really expect Indians to fight on your terms?
> We hit u where it hurts...thats why it hurts...
> 
> The problem with Pakistanis is that instead of accepting that you were truly beaten by a superior and organized force and take learnings for future, some of you try to rationalize your loss...
> Indians have to accept their defeat by the Chonese....we did exactly that...learned from our mistakes...
> 
> Its time you do the same instead of whining..


LOL
Yes yr right u people ie Hindu Baniya r well known for yr arrogance and immoral acts.
We dont expect u to fight on our terms and conditions.

But when u say the bold part then we just laugh at u because yr army was only able to win by just stabbing into our backs n blocking our supplies, it had failed or knew that it cant win against us in the fair basis ie Man to Man basis, like how it had failed in 1965 by fighting Man to Man or Eye to Eye!!!!!

But cant digest the same fact when Pakistan does the same in Occupied Kashmir (which is our land too)that yr Gov did in East Pakistan.


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## karan.1970

ajtr said:


> Mehran and kamra raids were nothing in comparison to 26/11. 26/11 guys attacked in different country where as mehran terrorists attacked in their own.I still agree with G.Parthasarthy that *26/11 was military attack* which was termed as terror attack to brush under the carpet just like other terror attacks.hence it is comparable to longewala and kargil and siachen.



So your contention is that Kasab and team were Pakistani Army ?? Even then, while Longewala, Kargil and Siachen were force on force engagements, Kamran, GHQ, Mehran and 26/11 were guerilla attacks.. Hence the difference

btw, its really sad when you guys have to stoop down to the level of taking credit of terror strikes in the enemy country as a military attack by your forces. More than anything, you do disservice to the brave lads of Pakistani Army...


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## Umair Nawaz

Peshwa said:


> I think you expect too much from your enemies...
> 
> Its only back stabbing if we were your friends...enemies are meant to **** you up...and we did exactly that...
> 
> As for blocking air and sea routes....do you really expect Indians to fight on your terms?
> We hit u where it hurts...thats why it hurts...
> 
> The problem with Pakistanis is that instead of accepting that you were truly beaten by a superior and organized force and take learnings for future, some of you try to rationalize your loss...
> Indians have to accept their defeat by the Chonese....we did exactly that...learned from our mistakes...
> 
> Its time you do the same instead of whining..


LOL
Yes yr right u people ie Hindu Baniya r well known for yr arrogance and immoral acts.
We dont expect u to fight on our terms and conditions.

But when u say the bold part then we just laugh at u because yr army was only able to win by just stabbing into our backs n blocking our supplies, it had failed or knew that it cant win against us in the fair basis ie Man to Man basis, like how it had failed in 1965 by fighting Man to Man or Eye to Eye!!!!!

But cant digest the same fact when Pakistan does the same in Occupied Kashmir (which is our land too)that yr Gov did in East Pakistan.


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## arp2041

@ajtr do u have trouble comprehending English??? I want to reply to ur last post but wonder if u will read it rationally or not, Anyways, a last try................. 



ajtr said:


> longewala 120 *well entrenched* men of IA delayed PA advance till morning even when numbers and equipment were in favour of PA.



PA strength = 2800 + 65 tanks 

while IA strength = 120 + 1 Anti tank vehicle

Simple Maths - There were 23+ PA soldiers for every IA soldier not to mention the unopposed tank superiority enjoyed by PA.

NOW, what great entrenchment did IA employed that stopped 2800 PA soldiers from killing just 120 IA soldiers for six complete hours???

I mean both were on same ground, seeing eye to eye.



ajtr said:


> 26/11- 8 men *well entrenched *in taj and oberoi hotels and chabbad house held on against whole mumbai police, IA,NSG,MARCOS for almost 3 days.



It was not possible to just kill the terrorists for the Indian forces, they were holding there positions for 3 days b'coz:

1. Indian forces priority was to save human life while terrorists were hiding behind civilians, India is not SL such that we don't kill our own people.

2. Surprise factor, such that for 1st day or so it was the fight b/w fully trained terrorists to that of Mumbai police.

3. There are more than 550 rooms in both Trident & Taj hotels, & NSG had to secure each & every room, thus unlike longewala enemy was taking human & infrastructure shield.



ajtr said:


> Kargil-NLI men were so *well entrenched* that it took whole might of IA and IAF to clear them in almost 3 months.



As i said earlier they were on high grounds easily targeting Indian positions + neither IA nor IAF's whole might was employed for Kargil.

Again can't compare to Longewalla since this time enemy was placed in strategically superior position.



ajtr said:


> Now do you see the similarities.



The only similarity i see are the words "well entranched" put in place only to prove ur fundamentally flawed point Right, oh & u have Bold it also, thanks otherwise i would not have seen it

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## Windjammer

ajtr said:


> Thats what i said before that IAF saved the days for IA at longowala.
> As for Indian war time propaganda,its nothing new.Indians have habit of making border type movies on propaganda stories like one was made on prathvi raj chauhan in which it was shown he kills Ghauri in the end.Indians have habit to make heros out of zeros.



Even the IAF is highly exaggerating the claims.....The Pakistan General, Muqeem, in his book Crisis of Leadership in Pakistan, mentions that large number of vehicles, tanks and guns got bogged in sand. The enemy destroyed 18 tanks and other vehicles .
Now compare that figure with the 45 Tanks claimed in the article...........Internet Hindus. !!!


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## ajtr

KRAIT said:


> 26/11 and Mehran can't be compared. One involved attack by terrorists on a *HOTEL with civilians with minimum security *while other was attack on a *MILITARY base which is supposed to be guarded with maximum security.*


you have to appriciate that SSG cleared the base with in 6 hrs where india's top commandos took 3 days.....says a lot about the capability isnt it?


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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> Even the IAF is highly exaggerating the claims.....The Pakistan General, Muqeem, in his book &#8216;Crisis of Leadership in Pakistan&#8217;, mentions that large number of vehicles, tanks and guns got bogged in sand. The enemy destroyed 18 tanks and other vehicles .
> Now compare that figure with the 45 Tanks claimed in the article...........Internet Hindus. !!!



We all know about Pakistan's habit of underplaying its losses.. It wasnt too long back when only slight damage to a single Saab 2000 was being tom tomed on this forum which later turned out to be a total write off (almost) of 1 plane and significant damage to the other 2.. Now compare that with the claim of only 18 vehicles being destroyed 

Or may be the remaining 27 (45-18) vehicles got blown into space and landed somewhere else after *10 hours of drifting thru space* lol and hence General Muqeem missed those in his book

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## ajtr

Windjammer said:


> Even the IAF is highly exaggerating the claims.....The Pakistan General, Muqeem, in his book &#8216;Crisis of Leadership in Pakistan&#8217;, mentions that large number of vehicles, tanks and guns got bogged in sand. The enemy destroyed 18 tanks and other vehicles .
> Now compare that figure with the 45 Tanks claimed in the article...........Internet Hindus. !!!


I dont know much about this book all i know about longewala from the movie itself. rest i get to learn on such threads where lies are called out.


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## karan.1970

ajtr said:


> you have to appriciate that SSG cleared the base with in 6 hrs where india's top commandos took 3 days.....says a lot about the capability isnt it?



Urban setting with civilian hostages vs army base.. well, congrats to SSG for taking 6 hours


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## ajtr

@apr2041 haan ji sunny deol to tank ki gun ke samnay same ground pe khada tha fir usnay aur pakistani tank commander ne 10 karam peechay liye aur sunny deol aka major kuldeep singh chandpuri ne apne hand grenade se tank ko uda diya.sabash.ab sab samajh a gaya mujhe........


Bahut shukriya samjhane ka.


but still 26/11 =longewala. go figure.



karan.1970 said:


> Urban setting with civilian hostages vs army base.. well, congrats to SSG for taking 6 hours


Haanji hostage to bas civilian hote hain base par koi nahi hostage ho sakta.


Brlliant indian minds at work.


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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> We all know about Pakistan's habit of underplaying its losses.. It wasnt too long back when only slight damage to a single Saab 2000 was being tom tomed on this forum which later turned out to be a total write off (almost) of 1 plane and significant damage to the other 2.. Now compare that with the claim of only 18 vehicles being destroyed
> 
> Or may be the remaining 27 (45-18) vehicles got blown into space and landed somewhere else after *10 hours of drifting thru space* lol and hence General Muqeem missed those in his book



Ya. this from those who recently issued the ten most wanted list.....or have fake encounters embedded in their psyche. 
When a dozen men can hold your financial capital hostage for three days, one understands you getting your knickers in a twist and dragging every unrelated matter into one post.....in a desperate effort to salvage your (Non) pride.

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## arp2041

ajtr said:


> but still 26/11 =longewala. go figure.
> 
> Haanji hostage to bas civilian hote hain base par koi nahi hostage ho sakta.
> 
> 
> Brlliant indian minds at work.





Aunty's Logic:

Q. Prove 4+3 = 0

Ans.

Taking left hand side:

=> 4+3

Multiplying it by 0 (don't ask how, go figure)

=> (4+3)*0 = 0

LHS=RHS

_HENCE PROVED_



& THANKS for appreciating my qualities

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## ajtr

arp2041 said:


> Aunty's Logic:
> 
> Q. Prove 4+3 = 0
> 
> Ans.
> 
> Taking left hand side:
> 
> => 4+3
> 
> Multiplying it by 0 (don't ask how, go figure)
> 
> => (4+3)*0 = 0
> 
> LHS=RHS
> 
> _HENCE PROVED_
> 
> 
> 
> & THANKS for appreciating my qualities


Chalo i got to know about one more quality of yours ie blame others for your illogically stupid logic. ...................


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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> Ya. this from those who recently issued the ten most wanted list.....or have fake encounters embedded in their psyche.
> When a dozen men can hold your financial capital hostage for three days, one understands you getting your knickers in a twist and dragging every unrelated matter into one post.....in a desperate effort to salvage your (Non) pride.



 but really apply some mind to this.. You expect a defeated general's word on the losses to be taken at face value and imply the victor's word being the exaggeration.. Its a standard he said, she said deal dude.. Just because he wrote a book, it doesn't make it the truth.. And its your bhabi jaan AJTR who brought unrelated 26/11 into the mix to deflect the defeat of longewala towards a troll fest


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## Peshwa

ajtr said:


> Haanji hostage to bas civilian hote hain base par koi nahi hostage ho sakta.
> 
> 
> Brlliant indian minds at work.



Dont believe they had any hostages during the raid on the naval base....It was more a hit and run...

Also, do take into consideration the logistical nightmare of clearing a massive multi story hotel vs. a naval base which is hard wired for security and the security personell have a clear map and understanding of the landscape.
Another advantage at the naval operation was the availability of SSG and security personell that are already present on the base...

Anyways...26/11 was a massive intelligence failure...again..somethign we have have learned from our mistake...
NEVER AGAIN!


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## arp2041

ajtr said:


> Chalo i got to know about one more quality of yours ie blame others for your illogically stupid logic. ...................



I don't have ANY PROBLEM if u prove my logic WRONG, i will be more than happy, but ur reply should be atleast rational/practical, i am still waiting for it, just look back to my posts & ur replies, if u will see it with neutral perspective, u will understand what i mean 

I rest my arguments here


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## Peshwa

Umair Nawaz said:


> LOL
> Yes yr right u people ie Hindu Baniya r well known for yr arrogance and immoral acts.
> We dont expect u to fight on our terms and conditions.



This is exactly why you should give up trying to fight us Indians...

Hamare jaise kaminey bahut kam milte hain....



> But when u say the bold part then we just laugh at u because yr army was only able to win by just stabbing into our backs n blocking our supplies, it had failed or knew that it cant win against us in the fair basis ie Man to Man basis, like how it had failed in 1965 by fighting Man to Man or Eye to Eye!!!!!
> 
> But cant digest the same fact when Pakistan does the same in Occupied Kashmir (which is our land too)that yr Gov did in East Pakistan



Ok...name one war in the history of the world where the attacker or defender didnt rack up numbers, geography, technology or logistics to their advantage....
Wars are won by strategy, not stupid beliefs like 1 of your soldiers is worth 10 of ours...which is pretty much what your suggesting here...LOL!
The rest of your post is simply whiny and frankly quite pathetic...


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## BlueDot_in_Space

ajtr said:


> Salala and attack on GHQ cant be considered as successful raid. But both Mehran raid and attack on Kamra airbase was something like brilliantly planned and execute commando type raid in military terms.



Ok thanks.


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## $@rJen

karan.1970 said:


> We all know about Pakistan's habit of underplaying its losses.. It wasnt too long back when only slight damage to a single Saab 2000 was being tom tomed on this forum which later turned out to be a total write off (almost) of 1 plane and significant damage to the other 2.. Now compare that with the claim of only 18 vehicles being destroyed
> 
> Or may be the remaining 27 (45-18) vehicles got blown into space and landed somewhere else after *10 hours of drifting thru space* lol and hence General Muqeem missed those in his book



Ya Dude you r right, even their missile test in last month was failed but they went on claiming as a complete success, these Pakistanis and chinese people can't digest the facts... so far i know Pakistanis never accepted their failure tests so do Chinese


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## Windjammer

karan.1970 said:


> but really apply some mind to this.. You expect a defeated general's word on the losses to be taken at face value and imply the victor's word being the exaggeration.. Its a standard he said, she said deal dude.. Just because he wrote a book, it doesn't make it the truth.. And its your bhabi jaan AJTR who brought unrelated 26/11 into the mix to deflect the defeat of longewala towards a troll fest



How ironic, Pakistani general has got your attention but you have conveniently ignored the egg in the face... courtesy of, Major General (retd), Atma Singh Hansara,.....before mentioning other members, consider your own attitude of grabbing to straws and digressing and indulging in cheap banter. A little introspection will not go a miss.

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## Gandhi G in da house

bravery and valour of Indian army was witnessed in this battle. A '300' like battle of our own. We should make more movies on this even though i think Border was good .


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## BlueDot_in_Space

ajtr said:


> i gave kargil example just coz indians seems too sensitive about 26/11.



Why are you not sensitive about attacks like salala, GHQ etc? your soldiers were killed on their own land.


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## Cherokee

Windjammer said:


> How ironic, Pakistani general has got your attention but you have conveniently ignored the egg in the face... courtesy of, Major General (retd), Atma Singh Hansara,.....before mentioning other members, consider your own attitude of grabbing to straws and digressing and indulging in cheap banter. A little introspection will not go a miss.



Go to Sleep Mate . You Don't Want Green Land of Pakistan reshaped now Do you . How Shamelessly you are downplaying a massive defeat .


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## karan.1970

Windjammer said:


> How ironic, Pakistani general has got your attention but you have conveniently ignored the egg in the face... courtesy of, Major General (retd), Atma Singh Hansara,.....before mentioning other members, consider your own attitude of grabbing to straws and digressing and indulging in cheap banter. A little introspection will not go a miss.



Well, I could pull up multiple accounts from Pakistani side talking about the crushing defeat at Longewala or even more recently complicity of Pakistani Leadership in hiding OBL in Pakistan. Now a single person's account, whether that person in Maj Gen Hansara or Gen. Ziauddin Khawaja does not become proof in itself. Because if it was, the Musharraf wouldn't be living comfortably in UK after being accused by Gen. Ziauddin Khawaja of hiding OBL in Pakistan


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## JonAsad

To much exaggeration oh well the indians they have to cover up 1000 years of unglorious history with some thing- -

Before picking up on 1000 years theory- do tell me how many centuries of slavery you gona agree to wrt this half a century old 71--


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## MilSpec

JonAsad said:


> Exactly we were firing blanks- while the two dead on your side was natural dead- they died of heart attack-
> So the score should be 200 : 0 -



Can't digest it, can you? Longewala has to go down in the history as one of the biggest victory of the 20th century... the stuff epics are made out of...


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## Cherokee

JonAsad said:


> To much exaggeration oh well the indians they have to cover up 1000 years of unglorious history with some thing- -
> 
> Before picking up on 1000 years theory- do tell me how many centuries of slavery you gona agree to wrt this half a century old 71--



LOL Pakistan was always slave , much more than India from Afghanis to Greeks to Mongols to Ummayads to Sikhs to Hindus to Buddists to Persians to what not . 

Even now a slave of U.S. and slowly slave ownership is getting to China.

Now cry a river.



sandy_3126 said:


> Can't digest it, can you? Longewala has to go down in the history as one of the biggest victory of the 20th century... the stuff epics are made out of...



That is the reason why he is hurt

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## MilSpec

ajtr said:


> nope on both counts its you who is reading it wrong.
> 
> All i said from very first post is that *its very difficult to clear an well entrenched enemy even if numbers are in your favour.*
> 
> but then when just mention of 26/11 make your brain behave like lunatic then its not my problem



Astonishing that a senior member doesn't have simple skills to diffrentiate between, 120 soldiers taking on 2000 enemy soldiers and an armored brigade with terrorists hiding inside a hotel sprawling with civilains... 

epic fail ... even for you


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## Basbug

Cherokee said:


> LOL Pakistan was always slave , much more than India from Afghanis to Greeks to Mongols to Ummayads to Sikhs to Hindus to Buddists to Persians to what not .
> 
> Even now a slave of U.S. and slowly slave ownership is getting to China.
> 
> Now cry a river.
> 
> 
> 
> That is the reason why he is hurt



Greeks? Your really having problems. How can you be ruled by Sikhs or Hindus how can you be ruled by a religion.


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## Abingdonboy

JonAsad said:


> To much exaggeration oh well the indians they have to cover up 1000 years of unglorious history with some thing- -
> 
> Before picking up on 1000 years theory- do tell me how many centuries of slavery you gona agree to wrt this half a century old 71--




I'm sorry but you have got all your info mixed up. It is India that has all the success anf victories and Pakistan has virtually 0, even your own intellectuals agree with this stark assesment.


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## JonAsad

sandy_3126 said:


> Can't digest it, can you? Longewala has to go down in the history as one of the biggest victory of the 20th century... the stuff epics are made out of...



Yes because indians sez so- Kindly dont joke around-


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## Abingdonboy

Basbug said:


> Greeks? Your really having problems. How can you be ruled by Sikhs or Hindus how can you be ruled by a religion.


Look up the Sikh army and Empire!


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## JonAsad

Cherokee said:


> LOL Pakistan was always slave , much more than India from Afghanis to Greeks to Mongols to Ummayads to Sikhs to Hindus to Buddists to Persians to what not .
> 
> Even now a slave of U.S. and slowly slave ownership is getting to China.
> 
> Now cry a river.
> 
> 
> 
> That is the reason why he is hurt



O yeah rite- the muslims ruled the hindus for how many centuries?-
In the end it will alway be muslims vs hindus- poor fellas were made to work hard in their own lands--


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## Basbug

Abingdonboy said:


> Look up the Sikh army and Empire!



First time i heard an empire with a religion name - Islam empire, Christian empire, Jewish empire lol. 

What is Sikh army got to do with empire. An army is part of an empire.


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## MilSpec

JonAsad said:


> Yes because indians sez so- Kindly dont joke around-



Ab armored brigade ke jarnail ko jaldi thi... pak fiziyaa busy thi, uske uppar pala pada to sikh regiment se.... halat to tight honee hi thi boss... 

200 men, well entrenched held you guys all night... your tanks became sish kebab by morning... most unfortunate loss for pakistan.... 


But in restrospect it was also a huge Intel failure for India


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## Basbug

Lol I looked Sikh empire 1799-1849. Like 50 years shortest empire in history.


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## Abingdonboy

Basbug said:


> Lol I looked Sikh empire 1799-1849. Like 50 years shortest empire in history.



Along came the British. Unfortunate timing for the Sikhs.


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## JonAsad

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm sorry but you have got all your info mixed up. It is India that has all the success anf victories and Pakistan has virtually 0, even your own intellectuals agree with this stark assesment.



Yup and your generals point of views on too much exaggeration be it 71 or kargil does not count- isnt it?-
I cant say you didnt know that- -


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## MilSpec

JonAsad said:


> To much exaggeration oh well the indians they have to cover up 1000 years of unglorious history with some thing- -
> 
> Before picking up on 1000 years theory- do tell me how many centuries of slavery you gona agree to wrt this half a century old 71--



oooh... longewala itte zor ka jhatka deti hai.. immediately 1000 year diatribe starts slinging around...



Basbug said:


> Lol I looked Sikh empire 1799-1849. Like 50 years shortest empire in history.



off topic... thread is on longewala


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## JonAsad

Abingdonboy said:


> Along came the British. Unfortunate timing for the Sikhs.


And the mighty sikhs were suddenly not mighty any more- Great-


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## Abingdonboy

JonAsad said:


> Yup and your generals point of views on too much exaggeration be it 71 or kargil does not count- isnt it?-
> I cant say you didnt know that- -



Point to a SINGLE military victory of Pakistan over India. Stop spouting nonsense otherwise.


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## MilSpec

Abingdonboy said:


> Point to a SINGLE military victory of Pakistan over India. Stop spouting nonsense otherwise.



does assymetric warfare count?


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## Abingdonboy

sandy_3126 said:


> does assymetric warfare count?



Even there they have failed miserably- JK violence is almost non-existent these days and Khalistan movement is dead.

And no it doesn't count.

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## Windjammer

Cherokee said:


> Go to Sleep Mate . You Don't Want Green Land of Pakistan reshaped now Do you . How *Shamelessly* you are downplaying a massive defeat .



If you know the meaning of the word.....and when you eventually come to your senses , check your country's map pre and post 1947......of late we waited for a whole year for your sinha to show a pair but i guess blowing saffron smoke out of every exit is your only speciality.



Abingdonboy said:


> Point to a SINGLE military victory of Pakistan over India. Stop spouting nonsense otherwise.



1965 may have been before our life time....but 2002 certainly wasn't. !!

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## SQ8

I am not sure how 26/11 is even close to Longewalla.. i have to disagree if there is the intention there.
A terrorist attack where unarmed civillians were the objective vs a Military attack carried out to capture strategic objectives??

I would request clarification from members saying that... since its plain support for terrorism then.

As to the actual battle, the Jaisalmir gambit was a long shot...and extremely ambitious.. 
had it actually worked out it would have been a shocker but brilliant plans need brilliant execution.
In this case.. the execution and manner of how it was tactically thought was sheer stupidity.

No co-ordination was carried out with the PAF to provide cover.
No consideration was given to the effectiveness of the vehicles in the terrain(AA guns jammed).
No consideration was given to the idea that if for a moments notice the tanks were bogged down.. they were sitting ducks for the IAF.. 
Just an abysmal failure of execution.. and quite rightly given a drubbing.
The IA men who held out at longewalla deserve praise.. but they would have been sacrificed had it not been for the IAF.
What the IAF did then is equal to the PAF's efforts in the Sialkot sector in 65.

An analysis of the actual plan.. the way it was thought up.. shows great strategy.. but the tactics were idiocy.
Somehow Pakistan's military machine has a problem.. its either brilliant tactics or brilliant strategy.. never will the two co-exist.

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## Umair Nawaz

Peshwa said:


> This is exactly why you should give up trying to fight us Indians...
> 
> Hamare jaise kaminey bahut kam milte hain....
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...name one war in the history of the world where the attacker or defender didnt rack up numbers, geography, technology or logistics to their advantage....
> Wars are won by strategy, not stupid beliefs like 1 of your soldiers is worth 10 of ours...which is pretty much what your suggesting here...LOL!
> *The rest of your post is simply whiny and frankly quite pathetic*...


Quite pathetic HUH!!!!!!!
Why because i have shown u yr true face of a cry baby in Occupied kashmir!!!!
Dude the war of 1965 n 1948 was won by us just live with it our soldiers had done n made the example of what a human being can do!!!! against all odds.

Its not about 1;10 but its about Belief in God,Country,Faith and Leadership, who make u win not just numerical or tech. advantage.

It is true that even today yr armed forces out number us in numerical calculations.Rest about yr saying about geography, technology or logistics blah blah were in the side of Pak army except of the numerical advantage rather it had a very small force against the might of its enemy, but still it menage to defend country in 1965 against yr Mammoth Army, its not fair to only judge the results of war just by watching or reading the indian sources (or wikipedia).


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## Umair Nawaz

Abingdonboy said:


> Point to a SINGLE military victory of Pakistan over India. Stop spouting nonsense otherwise.



1965 and 1948 now shhhhhhhhhuuuuuuuussshhhhhhhhh


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## ROCKETRAJA

Umair Nawaz said:


> The best military raid so far interns of Security lapse (by the host country), planing,execution n coordination in terms of military was the Mumbai Saga!!!!
> 
> Who r u actually a Pakistani or Indian seriously!!!



so all the attacks happening in Pakistan are military raid by taliban and al queda. I was thinking that was terrorist attacks.


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## karan21

Umair Nawaz said:


> 1965 and 1948 now shhhhhhhhhuuuuuuuussshhhhhhhhh


1948 was not a war but an invasion of kashmir by forces on both sides. We occupied 70% and you the remaining 30%. 

Lol go and tell that 1965 bs to someone else like Zaid hamid. Pakistan has not won a single war against India.


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## ROCKETRAJA

Umair Nawaz said:


> Quite pathetic HUH!!!!!!!
> Why because i have shown u yr true face of a cry baby in Occupied kashmir!!!!
> Dude the war of 1965 n 1948 was won by us just live with it our soldiers had done n made the example of what a human being can do!!!! against all odds.
> 
> Its not about 1;10 but its about Belief in God,Country,Faith and Leadership, who make u win not just numerical or tech. advantage.
> 
> It is true that even today yr armed forces out number us in numerical calculations.Rest about yr saying about geography, technology or logistics blah blah were in the side of Pak army except of the numerical advantage rather it had a very small force against the might of its enemy, but still it menage to defend country in 1965 against yr Mammoth Army, its not fair to only judge the results of war just by watching or reading the indian sources (or wikipedia).



same thing happens for u too; its not fair to only judge the results of war just by watching or reading Pakistani sources.


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## Kloitra

Umair Nawaz said:


> 1965 and 1948 now shhhhhhhhhuuuuuuuussshhhhhhhhh



1948, when you were able to capture 1/3 territory of the super power, princely state of Kashmir. And 1965, when you had super successful operation Gibraltar. Yeah, your wins.


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## SQ8

ROCKETRAJA said:


> same thing happens for u too; its not fair to only judge the results of war just by watching or reading Pakistani sources.



The same can be said otherwise.
The reality is in the middle.. from the mouths of those that actually fought it..
and these accounts should not have passed through the garbage can of the propaganda machines.

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## DroneAcharya

Oscar said:


> The same can be said otherwise.
> *The reality is in the middle.. from the mouths of those that actually fought it..*
> and these accounts should not have passed through the garbage can of the propaganda machines.


The reality is not only from the mouths who fought, but by accounts who can independently corroborate the said events. Now, in the other thread that you just closed down saying as sensationalism and flamebait and propaganda and what-not, the events have been independently verified and corroborated, thereby are entirely factual. Now simply because it is not up to your taste, would you suppress such background information from coming out ?


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## ROCKETRAJA

ajtr said:


> i'll still say 26/11 and world is witness to it.



as supporting 26/11, are you a terrorist supporter? or r u?????


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## Umair Nawaz

Kloitra said:


> 1948, when you were able to capture 1/3 territory of the super power, princely state of Kashmir. And 1965, when you had super successful operation Gibraltar. Yeah, your wins.



LOLdude u dont know history of 1948.
Operation gibralter that u claim only but u dont have any proof of that. other then yr own sources or wikipedia.
There is no concrete proof of that!.
The 1965 war was started in 6th September 1965 and lasted for 17 days, till 23 September 1965. When ur forces crossed the international borders in the early hours of the 6th september morning ie 3am n launched their advance towards Lahore.
That invasion was denied. Next Big Battle was the Battle of Chawinda Where the biggest armored battle took place after WW2 and Pak won it.
The other main battle is the Sea Raid on yr Coastal town of Dwarka which was done by navy n won by it without sustaining any damage even yr navy had a aircraft carrier too which was docked in port but never used against our fleet.

Now what did u do other then those fantasy of capturing of land etc etc mentioned in wikipedia only



ROCKETRAJA said:


> same thing happens for u too; its not fair to only judge the results of war just by watching or reading Pakistani sources.



Yes i completely agree only neutral sources should be trusted!!!


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## Umair Nawaz

karan21 said:


> 1948 was not a war but an invasion of kashmir by forces on both sides. We occupied 70% and you the remaining 30%.
> 
> Lol go and tell that 1965 bs to someone else like Zaid hamid. Pakistan has not won a single war against India.


LOL what a joke u go n tell ''Pakistan has not won a single war against India'' this crap to yr like minded once of RSS, Shev Sehna, BJP and Narendra Modi type radical terrorists, u dont have any credible proof other then just wikipedia



ROCKETRAJA said:


> so all the attacks happening in Pakistan are military raid by taliban and al queda. I was thinking that was terrorist attacks.



LOL i used to think Mumbai saga was too a terrorist act/attack, its just ajtr used these words n i had posted a reply to her not u.
But it seems u people have a had habit of inter fairing into others business/debates.


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## SQ8

DroneAcharya said:


> The reality is not only from the mouths who fought, but by accounts who can independently corroborate the said events. Now, in the other thread that you just closed down saying as sensationalism and flamebait and propaganda and what-not, the events have been* independently verified and corroborated,* thereby are entirely factual. Now simply because it is not up to your taste, would you suppress such background information from coming out ?


who?

and more importantly.. when those events were corroborated.. those versions exclude the jingoism bull-crap that is all in that piece.

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## DroneAcharya

Oscar said:


> who?
> 
> and more importantly.. when those events were corroborated.. those versions exclude the jingoism bull-crap that is all in that piece.


Do you really want signatures from your soldiers who surrendered to the 4/5 Gurkha FF saying they were terrified from the war-cries that made them surrender to a 500 battalion-sized force ? Or do you believe that 31 Punjab led by Hussain Shah did not surrender based on _his_ accounts ?


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## SQ8

DroneAcharya said:


> Do you really want signatures from your soldiers who surrendered to the 4/5 Gurkha FF saying they were terrified from the war-cries that made them surrender to a 500 battalion-sized force ? Or do you believe that 31 Punjab led by Hussain Shah did not surrender based on _his_ accounts ?



Yeah.. I do want signatures.. 
his accounts probably did not have anything to do with war cries and sensationalism in dialogues.
Unless you like that sort of bollywood drama.

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## 帅的一匹

This is more like typical Indian propaganda, 120 vs 2800 BS.

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## Kloitra

wanglaokan said:


> This is more like typical Indian propaganda, 120 vs 2800 BS.



Did you even read the thread?



Umair Nawaz said:


> LOLdude u dont know history of 1948.
> Operation gibralter that u claim only but u dont have any proof of that. other then yr own sources or wikipedia.
> There is no concrete proof of that!.


Oh yeah, how could I blame Op Gibraltar on Pakistan. After all, you have no such history, of infiltrating as mujahideen n all. Never have Pakistan attempted something like that, hiding your army as non-state actors. I totally agree.


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## AUSTERLITZ

They made a amateur attack without air cover in enemy territory probably thinking indians would run away from the 'ghazis',but the indian infantry stood its ground,and the invaders in turn got owned like a group of novices .


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## 帅的一匹

AUSTERLITZ said:


> They made a amateur attack without air cover in enemy territory probably thinking indians would run away from the 'ghazis',but the indian infantry stood its ground,and the invaders in turn got owned like a group of novices .


As you said, the battle was totally unfair. You got help from IAF there while PA without air support.


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## dollarman

wanglaokan said:


> As you said, the battle was totally unfair. You got help from IAF there while PA without air support.



More like bad planning by Pak Generals/higher military. Battles are not won and lost by soldiers, its by Generals that plan the attack/war, and their tactics/decisions play a huge role. No such thing as a fair war vs unfair war. More of a case of competence vs incompetence.


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## malgudi

ajtr said:


> I dont think that figures are unrealistic. A well trenched platoon can hold/delay a large size army.What major kuldeep singh's 120 men did was to hold on larger pakistani force till next daylight. Same thing like kasab and hi men did -they held whole of mumbai police force,navy MARCOS,NSG,ARMY etc for whole 3 days by being well entrenched in hotel taj and at chabbad house.



What an idiotic comparision. Kasab and co. were holding civilians as hostages and were on a killing spree. The forces viz the MARCOS, police force, navy, army, NSG, air force, the UN peace keeping force etc etc had to taken into account the civilian well being as well. The two incidents are in now way similar!

One is an act of exemplary bravery, the other sheer cowardness!


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## kurup

wanglaokan said:


> As you said, the battle was totally unfair. You got help from IAF there while PA without air support.



You are calling something unfair in a war .

It was not our problem that PAF never came to help PA.


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## sachin@india

the best thing about pak army is that after every debacle and humiliating losss htey don't reveal any inquiry or commission report.. which ofcourse bring down the moral of the army... this says enough about the bravery of PA.


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## kurup

Reel Heroes Of Border Who Depicted Real Heroes Of Laungewala !

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## Varunastra

ajtr said:


> I dont think that figures are unrealistic. A well trenched platoon can hold/delay a large size army.What major kuldeep singh's 120 men did was to hold on larger pakistani force till next daylight. Same thing like kasab and hi men did -they held whole of mumbai police force,navy MARCOS,NSG,ARMY etc for whole 3 days by being well entrenched in hotel taj and at chabbad house.



The Taj palace hotel is a hotel of historic interest and the terrorists also had civilian prisoners and it was in the heart of mumbai city,you can't compare that with the battle of longewala l where there were only military men with no civilians around with only a bunker for protection......if terrorists were in a position where the indian army was in longewala we would have bombed the whole place and the case would have been closed in a few hours or so but the Indian army with the airforce with sheer courage and determination had forced an entire tank regiment with 8000 soldiers to flee when all the odds were stacked against them .
I salute those brave men


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## Varunastra

tank tracks left by the pakistan army tanks while they were trying to flee


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## PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER

ajtr said:


> Thats valour deserves more awards and appreciation than the battle of longewala.
> comparison can be made in a sense if i make valor of Brigadir Tajammul Malik as sun then Major kuldip singh chandpuri's valour will be like a lamp.


how can u compare the two..battle of hilli was fought in the hills and longewalla in the deserts of rajasthan??? they were a more strategically advanced position ehan the indian soldiers at longewalla


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## karan.1970

ajtr said:


> Thats valour deserves more awards and appreciation than the battle of longewala.
> comparison can be made in a sense if i make valor of Brigadir Tajammul Malik as sun then Major kuldip singh chandpuri's valour will be like a lamp.



Its ironical that despite being having the Sun of valor, Pakistan loses the battle and despite only having a lamp of valor in comparison, India still ends up winning it


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## dekho

Kashmir is still with us, East Pakistan is gone and Bangladesh was created, also we hold Siachin - this is a classic example of strategic and geopolitical victory. Longewala, Karachi bombardment and 90000 POWs were cherry on top. 

Give them nothing but take from them everything.


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## Shinigami

Oscar said:


> The same can be said otherwise.
> The reality is in the middle.. from the mouths of those that actually fought it..
> and these accounts should not have passed through the garbage can of the propaganda machines.



i would put my faith in indian assessments, because they tend to be truthful as the indian military, like its government is transparent and all its mistakes are talked about and analyzed unlike Pakistan. (words of a PA colonel not mine http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/26461-pakistan-army-1965-1971-a.html)


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## Erhabi

Any Indian here know about Battle of Hilli? If yes thn why jumping over this small battle? it happens rite?


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## karan.1970

Malik Abdullah said:


> Any Indian here know about Battle of Hilli?* If yes thn why jumping over this small battle*? it happens rite?



Because that small battle is the topic of this thread.. You want to talk about another battle, open another thread


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## The_magnificent

Malik Abdullah said:


> Any Indian here know about Battle of Hilli? If yes thn why jumping over this small battle? it happens rite?



we know very well. how you people could do nothing there. ok tell us your version of battle of hilli and *please backen it with neutral source of information *. not with some random blogs of pakistani chest thumping lie websites


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## Erhabi

The_magnificent said:


> we know very well. how you people could do nothing there. ok tell us your version of battle of hilli and *please backen it with neutral source of information *. not with some random blogs of pakistani chest thumping lie websites




Battle of Hilli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The battle

The main objective of the Indian Army was to control Bogra, thereby cutting off Pakistan forces in the north from the rest of East Pakistan. The best way of getting to Bogra was through Hilli. The frontal assault on the Pakistan fortifications took a huge toll on both sides before Indian forces finally broke through by establishing a block in the read of Pakistani forces in Hilli, upon which the 4FF Battalion in Hilli was withdrew for the defence of Bogra.
[edit]Indian forces
The Indian side consisted of the *20 Indian Mountain Division led by Maj-Gen. Lachhman Singh. The constituent units of this division were 66 Brigade, 165 Brigade, 202 Brigade and 340 Brigade (all infantry units), 3 Armoured Brigade, 471 Engineer Brigade and two artillery brigades augmented by 33 Corps Artillery. The ground troops were aided by aerial support provided by the Indian Air Force which had acquired air superiority in the east and were armed with rockets, guns and 100 lb bombs.*
[edit]Pakistani forces
On the Pakistan side, the Area of Responsibility (AOR) was on *205 Brigade of Pakistan Army led by Brigadier (later retired as Major General) Tajammul Hussain Malik.* He had joined the brigade 4 days ago, when he volunteered to leave GHQ, Rawalpindi and command troops in the East Pakistan. He put up a stiff resistance that earned praise from many quarters.


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## acetophenol

Malik Abdullah said:


> Battle of Hilli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The battle
> 
> The main objective of the Indian Army was to control Bogra, thereby cutting off Pakistan forces in the north from the rest of East Pakistan. The best way of getting to Bogra was through Hilli. The frontal assault on the Pakistan fortifications took a huge toll on both sides before Indian forces finally broke through by establishing a block in the read of Pakistani forces in Hilli, upon which the 4FF Battalion in Hilli was withdrew for the defence of Bogra.
> [edit]Indian forces
> The Indian side consisted of the *20 Indian Mountain Division led by Maj-Gen. Lachhman Singh. The constituent units of this division were 66 Brigade, 165 Brigade, 202 Brigade and 340 Brigade (all infantry units), 3 Armoured Brigade, 471 Engineer Brigade and two artillery brigades augmented by 33 Corps Artillery. The ground troops were aided by aerial support provided by the Indian Air Force which had acquired air superiority in the east and were armed with rockets, guns and 100 lb bombs.*
> [edit]Pakistani forces
> On the Pakistan side, the Area of Responsibility (AOR) was on *205 Brigade of Pakistan Army led by Brigadier (later retired as Major General) Tajammul Hussain Malik.* He had joined the brigade 4 days ago, when he volunteered to leave GHQ, Rawalpindi and command troops in the East Pakistan. He put up a stiff resistance that earned praise from many quarters.



I hope you did read the full wiki article


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## The_magnificent

Malik Abdullah said:


> Battle of Hilli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The battle
> 
> The main objective of the Indian Army was to control Bogra, thereby cutting off Pakistan forces in the north from the rest of East Pakistan. The best way of getting to Bogra was through Hilli. The frontal assault on the Pakistan fortifications took a huge toll on both sides before Indian forces finally broke through by establishing a block in the read of Pakistani forces in Hilli, upon which the 4FF Battalion in Hilli was withdrew for the defence of Bogra.
> [edit]Indian forces
> The Indian side consisted of the *20 Indian Mountain Division led by Maj-Gen. Lachhman Singh. The constituent units of this division were 66 Brigade, 165 Brigade, 202 Brigade and 340 Brigade (all infantry units), 3 Armoured Brigade, 471 Engineer Brigade and two artillery brigades augmented by 33 Corps Artillery. The ground troops were aided by aerial support provided by the Indian Air Force which had acquired air superiority in the east and were armed with rockets, guns and 100 lb bombs.*
> [edit]Pakistani forces
> On the Pakistan side, the Area of Responsibility (AOR) was on *205 Brigade of Pakistan Army led by Brigadier (later retired as Major General) Tajammul Hussain Malik.* He had joined the brigade 4 days ago, when he volunteered to leave GHQ, Rawalpindi and command troops in the East Pakistan. He put up a stiff resistance that earned praise from many quarters.



And ?? You won the battle ? What so special you did ? you people were caught pants down and later surrendered. Anything special ?

You people just going gaga by saying Sun moon lamp examples. Here is what your source say about it. 

Malik had placed screens along the railway line nearby and at the Railway Station complex in the area. The defensive positions were sited in depth to cover all routes leading into East Pakistan._ They fought the entire Indian division and the Mukti Bahini soldiers until the Indians decided to bypass Hilli and establish a block in its rear_. Brig. Malik then* withdrew the forces in Hilli to avoid being cut off and to defend for the Bogra itself.*
Bogra was surrounded from all sides by the greater numbers of the Indian army and the Mukti Bahini. Brig. Malik's resistance continued even after the Pakistani Eastern Command surrendered in Dacca on 16 December. He, in his staff car with flags and stars uncovered went around the streets of Bogra motivating his soldiers to keep fighting. The Indian army had by then, surrounded the city of Bogra. The Brigade Major along with some 50 ORs surrendered but the Brigadier still full of vigour refused to give up.
Brig. Malik ordered the rest of his brigade to break out in small groups to Naogong, where one of his units was still fighting on. However en-route,* his jeep was ambushed, severely injuring him and his orderly. Muktis captured both of them and subjected them to torture.* *They broke his arms and split his head after which he was taken semi-conscious to an Indian army hospital.* Major General Nazar Hussain Shah, was especially flown in from Natore for the surrender of this brigade on 18 December 1971, due to the refusal of Brigadier Malik. Upon return from captivity, he was the only brigadier out of 32 or so who fought the 1971 War in East Pakistan to have been promoted to Major General rank.







This is so funny how you people take pride in surrender, humiliation, being tortured and loosing battle. What so special you did here? Other thn being tortured n Spitted on face by bengalis 



acetophenol said:


> I hope you did read the full wiki article



No he didn't he was taught another version of the article by his madarrsa, media, family on regular basis which resides deep down his heart. lies to save thmself from being ashamed


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## Erhabi

The_magnificent said:


> And ?? You won the battle ? What so special you did ? you people were caught pants down and later surrendered. Anything special ?
> 
> You people just going gaga by saying Sun moon lamp examples. Here is what your source say about it.
> 
> Malik had placed screens along the railway line nearby and at the Railway Station complex in the area. The defensive positions were sited in depth to cover all routes leading into East Pakistan._ They fought the entire Indian division and the Mukti Bahini soldiers until the Indians decided to bypass Hilli and establish a block in its rear_. Brig. Malik then* withdrew the forces in Hilli to avoid being cut off and to defend for the Bogra itself.*
> Bogra was surrounded from all sides by the greater numbers of the Indian army and the Mukti Bahini. Brig. Malik's resistance continued even after the Pakistani Eastern Command surrendered in Dacca on 16 December. He, in his staff car with flags and stars uncovered went around the streets of Bogra motivating his soldiers to keep fighting. The Indian army had by then, surrounded the city of Bogra. The Brigade Major along with some 50 ORs surrendered but the Brigadier still full of vigour refused to give up.
> Brig. Malik ordered the rest of his brigade to break out in small groups to Naogong, where one of his units was still fighting on. However en-route,* his jeep was ambushed, severely injuring him and his orderly. Muktis captured both of them and subjected them to torture.* *They broke his arms and split his head after which he was taken semi-conscious to an Indian army hospital.* Major General Nazar Hussain Shah, was especially flown in from Natore for the surrender of this brigade on 18 December 1971, due to the refusal of Brigadier Malik. Upon return from captivity, he was the only brigadier out of 32 or so who fought the 1971 War in East Pakistan to have been promoted to Major General rank.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is so funny how you people take pride in surrender, humiliation, being tortured and loosing battle. What so special you did here? Other thn being tortured n Spitted on face by bengalis
> 
> 
> 
> No he didn't he was taught another version of the article by his madarrsa, media, family on regular basis which resides deep down his heart. lies to save thmself from being ashamed



Ashamed? why wud I be ashamed of some malnourished Indians and Bengalis?..you belong to a back stabbing nation...taking pride on how your army took advantage of civil war in Pakistan..wish our army did the same to your country when in 1962 Chinese forces were spitting and raping your malnourished army..



acetophenol said:


> I hope you did read the full wiki article



and I hope you read it too...it was not a one night battle like Longewala...much longer and brutal thn tht..its amazing how PA fought such a large army and local Mukti Bani forces.. wish we had more officers like Tajamul Hussain at tht time


----------



## The_magnificent

Malik Abdullah said:


> Ashamed? why wud I be ashamed of some malnourished Indians and Bengalis?..you belong to a back stabbing nation...taking pride on how your army took advantage of civil war in Pakistan..wish our army did the same to your country when in 1962 Chinese forces were spitting and raping your malnourished army..


 Ok Blonde hair blue eyed surrendering pak boy. Just because you don't have any proud moment now you are trying to take support of someone's ( China ) Victory as yours. 

Truth remains truth that your battle of hilli was nothing but you got kicked and Shamefully surrendered n torturered by bengalis. 

Shame shame


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## Erhabi

The_magnificent said:


> Ok Blonde hair blue eyed surrendering pak boy. Just because you don't have any proud moment now you are trying to take support of someone's ( China ) Victory as yours.
> 
> Truth remains truth that your battle of hilli was nothing but you got kicked and Shamefully surrendered n torturered by bengalis.
> 
> Shame shame




How old are you? you cant even discuss properly...cockroach


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## arbit

Oscar said:


> The same can be said otherwise.
> *The reality is in the middle.. from the mouths of those that actually fought *it..
> and these accounts should not have passed through the garbage can of the propaganda machines.



Partly true. The biggest of lies and bitterest of truths come from those who fight in a war. But prevalance of make believe stories is slightly higher on your side. Don't take it otherwise. We have our share of bullsh*** here, but you beat us all fair and square.



wanglaokan said:


> As you said, the battle was totally unfair. You got help from IAF there while PA without air support.



Yeah totally unfair. You have 10 nukes more than us. Totally unfair. You weren't ready and i threw a punch. Totally unfair. You bullying a small nation like vietnam. Yeah totally unfair.

There is a casino decked up in disco lights floating somewhere near a shore. You will find it easily. Just look for plenty of tourists. There is a loo also, decked up again, yeah u guessed it right!, in disco lights. Go and **** over there.


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## The_magnificent

Malik Abdullah said:


> How old are you? you cant even discuss properly...cockroach



I am old enough .You are the one who is running battle to battle and being humiliated on each and every . Topic is Longewala. You ran away to discuss hilli , when you saw your army did nothing and got spanked now you wanna ride chinese sholders and wanna discuss 1962. 

now just because you cannot face the facts you are doing personal attacks calling others cockroach, back stabber, mal naurished. because this is the way your family taught you. n I can see you talk this way within home as well.

What is backstabber ? we are rivals. we are here to fight. we ever said you should trust us ? we are to hit your arse whenever we can. You shameless people just trying to save shame by calling your lost battle as enemy's back stabbing. 

Mind it again , It was you who started air strike in India. which started the war.


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## arbit

Malik Abdullah said:


> How old are you? you cant even discuss properly...cockroach



ROFL... @ cockroach.. (sorry off topic, but it really cracked me up)


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## Erhabi

The_magnificent said:


> I am old enough .You are the one who is running battle to battle and being humiliated on each and every . Topic is Longewala. You ran away to discuss hilli , when you saw your army did nothing and got spanked now you wanna ride chinese sholders and wanna discuss 1962.
> 
> now just because you cannot face the facts you are doing personal attacks calling others cockroach, back stabber, mal naurished. because this is the way your family taught you. n I can see you talk this way within home as well.
> 
> What is backstabber ? we are rivals. we are here to fight. we ever said you should trust us ? we are to hit your arse whenever we can. You shameless people just trying to save shame by calling your lost battle as enemy's back stabbing.
> 
> Mind it again ,It was you who started air strike in India. which started the war.




we are enemies rite? thn why Indians cry over Mumbai attack? we are also suppose to hit your arse whenever we can rite? your whole Mumbai got locked up by few armed men..if 10 can kill 160 thn imagine wht 200 million can do to your malnourished n polio infested nation ..I dont justify tht but since you bring rivalry had to mention tht.. ..Wars can be fought fairly with honorable enemy but unfortunately we Pakistanis are facing a very cheap and backstabbing enemy


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## Black Widow

ajtr said:


> Lol.............even G.Parthsarthy and mahroof raza termed 26/11 attack in military terms as brilliantly planned and executed commando type raid whe they said 26/11 was not a normal terror attack it was more like commando raid.
> 
> As for comparing both longewala and 26/11 the reason being to show how difficult is to clear a well entrenched enemy even when numbers are in your favour.If not 26/11 you can also take example of kargil war.even though numbers were in india's favour it took IA/IAF nearly 3 months to clear those peaks.




Though there are some similarities, there are many difference...

1. one was urban warfare , other was conventional warfare.
2. One was defensive operation, another was suicide mission.
3. One was unethical (Killing unarmed civilian) another was ethical warfare. 

26/11 can only be compared with 9/11, there is no conventional war which can be compared with it. It was not a commando action, No commando action in world allow its soldier to die. AFAIK from America to Japan (except Pakistan) can allow such action against unarmed civilian


Kargil war can be compared with longewala war, where Pakisatni soldier were in Bunker and Indian were in open... But then also "Pakistani Loose".


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## dollarman

Malik Abdullah said:


> we are enemies rite? thn why Indians cry over Mumbai attack? we are also suppose to hit your arse whenever we can rite? your whole Mumbai got locked up by few armed men..if 10 can kill 160 thn imagine wht 200 million can do to your malnourished n polio infested nation ..I dont justify tht but since you bring rivalry had to mention tht.. ..Wars can be fought fairly with honorable enemy but unfortunately we Pakistanis are facing a very cheap and backstabbing enemy



You guys used terrorists to do your dirty work using hostages, because last time you tried using that Army of yours, you lost half your country.

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## karan.1970

Black Widow said:


> Though there are some similarities, there are some difference...
> 
> 1. one was urban warfare , other was conventional warfare.
> 2. One was defensive operation, another was suicide mission.
> 3. One was unethical (Killing unarmed civilian) another was ethical warfare.
> 
> 26/11 can only be compared with 9/11, there is no conventional war which can be compared with it. It was not a commando action, No commando action in world allow its soldier to die. AFAIK from America to Japan (except Pakistan) can allow such action against unarmed civilian



Pakistani perspective mein this is allowed it seems.. I dont know how long an Indian member would have survived after comparing the Battle of Chawinda with the attack on Mehran Base or Kamra Base or Srilanka cricket team or Pakistan GHQ...


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## Windjammer

dollarman said:


> You guys used terrorists to do your dirty work using hostages, because* last time you tried using that Army of yours*, you lost half your country.



Kindly pull your head or whatever out of sand and realise this is 2012....last time you felt adventurous was in 2002, but then your army became paralysed for a whole year.


> *
> Casualties*
> The standoff inflicted heavy casualties. It took India months to mobilize and lost 789 men[3] to 1874 men[23] in the standoff. Around 100 soldiers were killed in the initial phase of laying mines, another 250 were injured. The remaining casualties were a result of artillery duels with Pakistan and vehicle accidents. The Pakistani losses were estimated to be about 34 casualties and 10 injuries.
> 
> *Cost of standoff*
> 
> The Indian cost for the buildup was 21,600 crore (US$3.93 billion) being much greater than that of Pakistani $1.4 billion.[24]

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## SpArK

Major KC CHANDPURI and his 120 brave hearts
Major Kuldip Singh Chandpuri , MVC (3rd from left) with his company@battle of longewala





Indian soldiers, along with Maj KS Chandpuri (Right) in front of a bombed enemy Jeep.

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## Windjammer

_The issue has been discussed on this very forum before and the Indian lies and propaganda thoroughly exposed, but the fan boys need some simulation alas small things amuse little minds. _

*Army faked battle of Laungewala*


The splendid victory achieved by our army in the battle of Laungewala during the 14-day 1971 India-Pakistan war was faked, a soldier awarded a military decoration in those operations has said. It was actually our air force that crushed the Pakistanis.

Major General Atma Singh (retd), who won the Vir Chakra for gallantry at Laungewala, told Hindustan Times that no ground battle was fought and the army had merely rehearsed it on a sand model after the ceasefire to cover up the incompetence of senior military commanders.

The army had last week presented Defence Minister AK Antony a blow-by-blow account of how Major KS Chandpuri (later brigadier) leading just 100 men had frustrated a formidable attack by a Pakistani brigade (some 2,800 troops) backed by an armoured regiment of 45 tanks. Chandpuri was given the Maha Vir Chakra. His alpha company (23 Punjab) won six gallantry awards. The armys role in the battle had motivated generations and also inspired the Bollywood hit Border.

Atma Singh was then commanding the No 12 Air Observation Post (AOP) flight, tasked with directing close air support firepower towards enemy targets on the ground. I dispute the ground battle completely. It is a mockery of army ethos, he said. We are teaching military history to future commanders citing battle accounts with no credibility. IAFs Hunter fighters saved the day. Atma Singhs AOP flight of five Krishak light recce aircraft undertook 80 sorties and logged more than 110 flying hours.

Colonel PS Sangha (retd), who also served 12 AOP and was awarded a VrC, said Laungewala was an air force victory without doubt. Fighter pilots won eight Vir Chakras in that battle.

A senior officer in the army headquarters dismissed doubts on the armys accomplishments in the battle.

The officer said: "It was a moment of glory. The combat ratio of 27:1 was in the enemy's favour. That's why we presented a simulated version of the action at Laungewala to the defence minister." Antony had dubbed it a "fascinating battle".

According to the army, Chandpuri's and his men -- equipped with recoilless guns, medium machine guns, 81 mm mortars and small arms -- had engaged enemy armour. Atma Singh refuted it. "There were no signs of ground battle. I was out there in no man's land after an emergency landing at the Laungewala helipad. The enemy suffered no casualty in men or material till a Hunter hit their first T-59 tank."

Chandpuri regretted that the army's role in the battle was being questioned. He said the contribution of ground troops was in no way inferior to the IAF. "The troops on the ground fought against the enemy. The IAF hardly faced any opposition. The air force operated freely as the enemy had not scrambled its fighters," he said.

The scary prospect of being overrun by the enemy had made Chandpuri's men slightly edgy. But the army says his high standards of leadership motivated his men to fight to finish.

Major General Ian Cardozo (retd), who has authored several books on military history, said, "Truth is the first casualty of war worldwide. The fact is that the air force saved the day. But the army deserves credit for standing fast and holding the line despite overwhelming enemy forces."

âArmy faked battle of Laungewalaâ - Hindustan Times

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...y-faked-battle-laungewalla.html#ixzz2EAtrUFnj

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## SQ8

Shinigami said:


> i would put my faith in indian assessments, because they tend to be truthful as the indian military, like its government is transparent and all its mistakes are talked about and analyzed unlike Pakistan. (words of a PA colonel not mine http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history-strategy/26461-pakistan-army-1965-1971-a.html)



Absolutely agreed.. but there are also jingoistic accounts from the Indian side.
The difference being.. that India would analyze these to sort out truth from fiction for ITS OWN CONSUMPTION.
Not for the outside world.. as the zee news type actions of Kargil or Pran Chopra type fecal matter written on 71.

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## Alphacharlie

Oscar said:


> Absolutely agreed.. but there are also jingoistic accounts from the Indian side.
> The difference being.. that India would analyze these to sort out truth from fiction for ITS OWN CONSUMPTION.
> Not for the outside world.. as the zee news type actions of Kargil or Pran Chopra type fecal matter written on 71.



There is an Established fact Victor will project How difficult the Battle was......

The Beleaguered will project How Heavy Odds they faced.........

Bottom line - Exaggerations factor kicks in............. + History has been made 'NOW" make more.


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## mikz

*Indian army general reveal about lies of Indian army at longewala battle... see in this link

1971 : Coward Indian Army left their Post in rajistan sector: Ex Indian General*



StormShadow said:


> On This Day 41 Years Ago , The Pakistan army decided to enter through Longewala (about 80 km from Ramgarh) and then hoped to capture Jaisalmer via Ramgarh.
> 
> *The Longewala outpost was held by Major Kuldip Singh Chandpuri and his 120 men*. Their position was on top of a large sand dune which they had surrounded by barbed wires. The Indian party was in a very strong defensive position due to height of the dune. Also the sandy area was not easily navigable by the vehicles (as well as tanks). *Apart from their usual rifles, the Indian men had only one Jeep mounted M40 anti-tank gun. The attacking Pak force had 2800 soldiers, 65 tanks, 138 military vehicles, 5 field guns and 3 anti-aircraft guns.* Pakistani forces, led by Brigadier Tariq Mir, attacked Indian outpost on the intervening night of 4th and 5th December 1971. The attack began at 12:30 in the night.
> 
> *In the first wave of attack, the Pak soldiers killed five out of ten camels of the BSF available to the outpost.* Indians had no time to lay a proper minefield -so they hastily laid as many mines as possible near to the outpost. As the column of 65 Pakistani tanks advanced the Indian soldiers patiently held fire. When the tanks were about 20 meters away -the Indians opened fire and using the only anti-tank gun they had they destroyed two foremost tanks in the column.
> 
> *The outpost was to get support from Indian Air Force but the IAF plane could not fly because they were not equipped with the night vision. So, the outpost was told either to hold ground until dawn or flee. Major Chandpuris men, brave as they were, decided to defend their post. And they did. They held the advance of Pakistani forces until the sun rose above the horizon.*
> 
> That rising sun brought nightmare for the Pakistani troops. The Indian Air Force sent four Hawker Hunter fighter jets to help the Indian soldiers. Pakistani troops had not planned for this. They had thought that they will easily win the outpost in the cover of night. But as the night waned they found IAF jets hovering over their heads. And then began destruction. For Indian jets the Pakistani tanks proved to be sitting ducks. The desert was open, no place to hide, tanks guns were not able to hit the aircraft and were under fire from the ground Indian soldiers. The Pakistani forces sent messages to ask for air support but the Pakistan Air Force was busy elsewhere. So, Indian jets had no resistance at all.
> 
> *36 tanks of Pakistan were destroyed or captured, 200 soldiers were killed and 100 military vehicles were destroyed*. Arrival of Indian jets had stopped the advance of Pak army -and when Indian tanks arrived -the Pakistani troops were forced to withdraw from the area.
> 
> Major Chandpuris men destroyed 12 tanks whereas 22 tanks were destroyed by the Indian jets. Some of the tanks were captured by Indian forces. The IAF attack was led by Wing Commander M.S. Bawa.
> 
> *Courtesy- Facebook/Indian Air Force*



*Indian army general reveal about lies of Indian army at longewala battle... see in this link

1971 : Coward Indian Army left their Post in rajistan sector: Ex Indian General
*


StormShadow said:


> On This Day 41 Years Ago , The Pakistan army decided to enter through Longewala (about 80 km from Ramgarh) and then hoped to capture Jaisalmer via Ramgarh.
> 
> *The Longewala outpost was held by Major Kuldip Singh Chandpuri and his 120 men*. Their position was on top of a large sand dune which they had surrounded by barbed wires. The Indian party was in a very strong defensive position due to height of the dune. Also the sandy area was not easily navigable by the vehicles (as well as tanks). *Apart from their usual rifles, the Indian men had only one Jeep mounted M40 anti-tank gun. The attacking Pak force had 2800 soldiers, 65 tanks, 138 military vehicles, 5 field guns and 3 anti-aircraft guns.* Pakistani forces, led by Brigadier Tariq Mir, attacked Indian outpost on the intervening night of 4th and 5th December 1971. The attack began at 12:30 in the night.
> 
> *In the first wave of attack, the Pak soldiers killed five out of ten camels of the BSF available to the outpost.* Indians had no time to lay a proper minefield -so they hastily laid as many mines as possible near to the outpost. As the column of 65 Pakistani tanks advanced the Indian soldiers patiently held fire. When the tanks were about 20 meters away -the Indians opened fire and using the only anti-tank gun they had they destroyed two foremost tanks in the column.
> 
> *The outpost was to get support from Indian Air Force but the IAF plane could not fly because they were not equipped with the night vision. So, the outpost was told either to hold ground until dawn or flee. Major Chandpuris men, brave as they were, decided to defend their post. And they did. They held the advance of Pakistani forces until the sun rose above the horizon.*
> 
> That rising sun brought nightmare for the Pakistani troops. The Indian Air Force sent four Hawker Hunter fighter jets to help the Indian soldiers. Pakistani troops had not planned for this. They had thought that they will easily win the outpost in the cover of night. But as the night waned they found IAF jets hovering over their heads. And then began destruction. For Indian jets the Pakistani tanks proved to be sitting ducks. The desert was open, no place to hide, tanks guns were not able to hit the aircraft and were under fire from the ground Indian soldiers. The Pakistani forces sent messages to ask for air support but the Pakistan Air Force was busy elsewhere. So, Indian jets had no resistance at all.
> 
> *36 tanks of Pakistan were destroyed or captured, 200 soldiers were killed and 100 military vehicles were destroyed*. Arrival of Indian jets had stopped the advance of Pak army -and when Indian tanks arrived -the Pakistani troops were forced to withdraw from the area.
> 
> Major Chandpuris men destroyed 12 tanks whereas 22 tanks were destroyed by the Indian jets. Some of the tanks were captured by Indian forces. The IAF attack was led by Wing Commander M.S. Bawa.
> 
> *Courtesy- Facebook/Indian Air Force*


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## The_magnificent

Says Idiotic Siasat.pk website. bitch please.  Chootiya writer needs to know it is not rajisthan but Rajasthan .


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## hari sud

Thanks to Major Chandpuri and his 100 men, who held the post against all odds, all night , until 6.00 AM, until the airforce could come to the rescue and make minced meat of Pakistani tanks, what more could be braver than that.

Pakistani members have been denying that this battle ever took place. They have no knowledge of their own history, although it is written in skewed manner to circumvent the issue of defeat and loss of face, but military men turned historian like A H AMIN has interviewed the defeated commander about his version of the loss of face.

Even the Brtish could not believe it earlier until Chief of the Imperial Defence Forces Visited the site ten years later and confirmed the account of the battle as per Indian version.


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## hussain0216

Lies lies and more lies now proven by the very man who was supposed to be their

With the Indian military staging mock battles and events what else have the Indian military lied to you about


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## NRI

1948 was actually da result of intervention by the UN wen the pakistanis were sure that IA would sweep dem out of J and K in a few days dat UN odered a ceasefire n pakistanis sit ovr wat is Azad Kashmir now,,however again to note that pakistanis were afraid that the tribals which dey had sent to kashmir to rape and loot myt nt b abl 2 invade kashmir,,wenevr in doubt always run to the UN out of fear,,dat s da pak motto,,evn in 1971 zanab bhutto tried to run to the UN wid tears in his eyes but wen he was snubbed by the UN he jst tore a sheet of paper in the UN gen assembly as a publicity stunt to his local voters,,1965 ke bare me sabko pta hai dat india inflicted much larger territory loss on pak and bein at an afvatagoeus positon holding pak territory india won the war,,1999 was a direct betrayl espcially wen retreat was mutually decided by indian n pak army to capture n invade indian posts,,which india did neutralize,,1965 ki asliyat sab jaante hain,,evn 1971 mein india had hold of 13000 sq kms of pakistani land on the west,,however, the world knows that zanab bhutto begged for mercy as smthin 2 show to his puclic in pak to indira gandhi and she bein a lady and kind returned **** land back


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## S.A.

NRI said:


> 1948 was actually da result of intervention by the UN *wen the pakistanis were sure that IA would sweep dem out of J and K in a few days* dat UN odered a ceasefire n pakistanis sit ovr wat is Azad Kashmir now,,*however again to note that pakistanis were afraid that the tribals which dey had sent to kashmir to rape and loot myt nt b abl 2 invade kashmir*,,*wenevr in doubt always run to the UN out of fear,,dat s da pak motto*,,evn in 1971 *zanab bhutto* tried to run to the UN *wid tears in his eyes* but wen he was snubbed by the UN he jst tore a sheet of paper in the UN gen assembly as a publicity stunt to his local voters,,1965 ke bare me sabko pta hai dat india inflicted much larger territory loss on pak and bein at an afvatagoeus positon holding pak territory *india won the war*,,1999 was a direct betrayl espcially wen *retreat was mutually decided* by indian n pak army to capture n invade indian posts,,which india did neutralize,,1965 ki asliyat sab jaante hain,,evn 1971 mein india had hold of 13000 sq kms of pakistani land on the west,,however, the world knows that *zanab bhutto begged for mercy* as smthin 2 show to his puclic in pak to *indira gandhi and she bein a lady and kind* returned **** land back



Your first post and wt a start .... Keep it up....

BTW who is Zanab Bhutto???


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## NRI

ur very own zulfiqar ali bhutto,,wenevr india anhilates pakistan dey run to the UN like a cry baby!! dis is a fact


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## NRI

Yes pakistan did capture some 540 km2 of our territory in 1965,,but that were in the barren areas of rann of kutch where as india held 1840km2 of **** land in sialkot and lahore sectors of fertile punjab,, dese r few neutral assessments of 1965 war which was forced upon india by pakistani aggression. 
*Neutral assessments*
There have been several neutral assessments of the losses incurred by both India and Pakistan during the war. Most of these assessments agree that India had the upper hand over Pakistan when ceasefire was declared. Some of the neutral assessments are mentioned below —


According to the Library of Congress Country Studies conducted by the Federal Research Division of the United States[73] –
The war was militarily inconclusive; each side held prisoners and some territory belonging to the other. Losses were relatively heavy—on the Pakistani side, twenty aircraft, 200 tanks, and 3,800 troops. Pakistan's army had been able to withstand Indian pressure, but a continuation of the fighting would only have led to further losses and ultimate defeat for Pakistan. Most Pakistanis, schooled in the belief of their own martial prowess, refused to accept the possibility of their country's military defeat by "Hindu India" and were, instead, quick to blame their failure to attain their military aims on what they considered to be the ineptitude of Ayub Khan and his government.


TIME magazine reported that India held 690 mi2 of Pakistan territory while Pakistan held 250 mi2 of Indian territory in Kashmir and Rajasthan. Additionally, Pakistan had lost almost half its armour temporarily.[74] The article further elaborates,
Severely mauled by the larger Indian armed forces, Pakistan could continue the fight only by teaming up with Red China and turning its back on the U.N.


Devin T. Hagerty wrote in his book _"South Asia in world politics"_[75] –
The invading Indian forces outfought their Pakistani counterparts and halted their attack on the outskirts of Lahore, Pakistan's second-largest city. By the time United Nations intervened on September 22, Pakistan had suffered a clear defeat.


In his book _"National identity and geopolitical visions"_,[76] Gertjan Dijkink writes –
The superior Indian forces, however, won a decisive victory and the army could have even marched on into Pakistani territory had external pressure not forced both combatants to cease their war efforts.


An excerpt from Stanley Wolpert's _India_,[77] summarizing the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965,
In three weeks the second Indo-Pak War ended in what appeared to be a draw when the embargo placed by Washington on U.S. ammunition and replacements for both armies forced cessation of conflict before either side won a clear victory. India, however, was in a position to inflict grave damage to, if not capture, Pakistan's capital of the Punjab when the cease-fire was called, and controlled Kashmir's strategic Uri-Poonch bulge, much to Ayub's chagrin.


In his book titled _The greater game: India's race with destiny and China_, David Van Praagh wrote[7] –
India won the war. It gained 1,840 km2 (710 sq mi) of Pakistani territory: 640 km2 (250 sq mi) in Azad Kashmir, Pakistan's portion of the state; 460 km2 (180 sq mi) of the Sailkot sector; 380 km2 (150 sq mi) far to the south of Sindh; and most critical, 360 km2 (140 sq mi) on the Lahore front. Pakistan took 540 km2 (210 sq mi) of Indian territory: 490 km2(190 sq mi) in the Chhamb sector and 50 km2 (19 sq mi) around Khem Karan.


Dennis Kux's _"India and the United States estranged democracies"_ also provides a summary of the war,[78]
Although both sides lost heavily in men and material, and neither gained a decisive military advantage, India had the better of the war. New Delhi achieved its basic goal of thwarting Pakistan's attempt to seize Kashmir by force. Pakistan gained nothing from a conflict which it had instigated.


BBC reported that the war served game changer in Pakistani politics,[79]
The defeat in the 1965 war led to the army's invincibility being challenged by an increasingly vocal opposition. This became a surge after his protege, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, deserted him and established the Pakistan People's Party.


"_A region in turmoil: South Asian conflicts since 1947_" by Robert Johnson mentions[8] –
India's strategic aims were modest – it aimed to deny Pakistani Army victory, although it ended up in possession of 720 square miles (1,900 km2) of Pakistani territory for the loss of just 220 square miles (570 km2) of its own.


An excerpt from William M. Carpenter and David G. Wiencek's "_Asian security handbook: terrorism and the new security environment_"[80] –
A brief but furious 1965 war with India began with a covert Pakistani thrust across the Kashmiri cease-fire line and ended up with the city of Lahore threatened with encirclement by Indian Army. Another UN-sponsored cease-fire left borders unchanged, but Pakistan's vulnerability had again been exposed.


English historian John Keay's "_India: A History_" provides a summary of the 1965 war[81] –
The 1965 Indo-Pak war lasted barely a month. Pakistan made gains in the Rajasthan desert but its main push against India's Jammu-Srinagar road link was repulsed and Indian tanks advanced to within a sight of Lahore. Both sides claimed victory but India had most to celebrate.


Uk Heo and Shale Asher Horowitz write in their book "_Conflict in Asia: Korea, China-Taiwan, and India-Pakistan_"[82] –
Again India appeared, logistically at least, to be in a superior position but neither side was able to mobilize enough strength to gain a decisive victory.


Newsweek magazine, however, praised the Pakistani military's ability to hold off the much larger Indian Army.[83]
By just the end of the week, in fact, it was clear that the Pakistanis were more than holding their own.​


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## Fahad Khan 2

NRI said:


> 1948 was actually da result of intervention by the UN wen the pakistanis were sure that IA would sweep dem out of J and K in a few days dat UN odered a ceasefire n pakistanis sit ovr wat is Azad Kashmir now,,however again to note that pakistanis were afraid that the tribals which dey had sent to kashmir to rape and loot myt nt b abl 2 invade kashmir,,wenevr in doubt always run to the UN out of fear,,dat s da pak motto,,evn in 1971 zanab bhutto tried to run to the UN wid tears in his eyes but wen he was snubbed by the UN he jst tore a sheet of paper in the UN gen assembly as a publicity stunt to his local voters,,1965 ke bare me sabko pta hai dat india inflicted much larger territory loss on pak and bein at an afvatagoeus positon holding pak territory india won the war,,1999 was a direct betrayl espcially wen retreat was mutually decided by indian n pak army to capture n invade indian posts,,which india did neutralize,,1965 ki asliyat sab jaante hain,,evn 1971 mein india had hold of 13000 sq kms of pakistani land on the west,,however, the world knows that zanab bhutto begged for mercy as smthin 2 show to his puclic in pak to indira gandhi and she bein a lady and kind returned **** land back




You should change country flag first because false flag operation are not allowed on PDF... You are new fan boy you should learn from other Indians how to debate on this forum.... If you you making big arguments then you should back it with reliable references don't just start war with you keyboard and type every Shir that pop up in your mind...


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## NRI

ok so wat references u need? that pak did send tribals to rape and loot? or it always runs to the UN to save itself wenever bogged down by india? or india did actually hold a significant **** terrirtory in 1965 n 71? haven t u seen the neitral references about the outcome of 1965 war above? n still u feel dat pak won the war?  :p


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## NRI

dis is not at all nonsesne!!! jst tell me for which u want references ,,dat PA did not rape lakhs of women in BD or the tribals did nt rape n loot ppl in 1948? or you really were at the negative weaker end in 1965 and lost in 71 and you did actually betray us in kargil n still we kciked PA out of our territory?


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## TigerKhanX

lol people are discussing here for the Border movie but nobody discussing about Indian failed intrusion to Rahim Yar Khan
https://theprint.in/opinion/the-197...-sam-manekshaws-order-pakistans-folly/329321/


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