# CPEC - stalled and lost momentum?



## Indus Pakistan

Okay it's been some five years since the launch of CPEC so we can have audit of progress and see if it has lived upto it's expectations. My view is it has delivered some progress but* failed *to bring substantive change to Pakistan as I would have liked to seen.

Frankly I am disappointed. What could have been has been missed. CPEC offered the possibility to entirely rework the economy of Pakistan. Bring about a revolution in the way the country traded and opened new vistas. Most importantly it offered the possibility of the corrupt, rentier parasite economic linkages that have taken root in Pakistan and are choking competition. What is wrong with Pakistan's economy? everything as it stands. When a economy of 200 million people can only generate $20 billion exports and the country is forced to live on the ex-pat worker remittances of $22 billion it tells us about what type of industry and trading class we have in Pakistan. They are just rent seekers who do not add value but just export basic products. A good example is Pink Salt which as we know is mined and exported raw to India for it to be processed and sold as brand India with 10 times value addition.

The present rent seeking, mafia economy is established along the eastern corridor which runs from Peshawar-Lahore-Multan-Sukker-Karachi. Decades of investment dating even from the British era rail system has laid infrastructure along this corridor. Rail and roads all go along this corridor discharging into the only port Karachi. The entire economic and trading system of 200 million people is hinged on Karachi as it is the port there thatr interfaces with the global economy. You want to import a truck from Japan, a car from Germany, a industrial lathe from France, Swiss clock for any of the 200 million purchasers in Pakistan those products will land at Karachi port and then move along the transport infra of the eastern corridor.

On the other hand whether your a salt miner in Khewra, a Lap;is Lazuli exporter in Peshawar, a sports manufacturer in Sialkot, a tile maker in Multan your goods will travel along that transport infra of the eastern corridor to be exported at Karachi port.

So the entire trading order is lynched on Karachi pivoted on Karachi and geared towards minimum value addition and reliant on subsidies or monopolies. Competition is seen as sin. This is why despite everything Pakistani industry will continue to be feeble and fail to take off like Bangladesh has. The rent seekers will just make excuses come PTI, PPP, PML.

The infographic below sums up the lay of the eastern corridor. Karachi is vital and is the final point where a national level "bhatta tax" is inflicted by various vested interests in that city which tend to be either PPP or MQM controlled. The entire 1,000 mile corridor will be get stuck here unless some money is not exchanged.








CPEC however offered a tantalising possibility of breaking this entrenched rent seeking economic order thart has taken root over the decades with chockehold at Karach port that has the entire country hostage. As explained above the economic activity of 200 million people rests at the only port to the outside world.

How so? Gwadar. It offered the possibility of a new port. A possibility of a alternative that would break the chokehold of Karachi. It would offer a chance for a new economic corridor to open up. With it it would bring competition and finally some fresh vigour to the Pakistan economy. This would force change in the eastern corridor as monopoly would be broken with rise of Western economic corridor. Please refer to infographic below.







For this to work though it is not enough to build a Port at Gwadar. It also needs the Western corridor built that would mean motorways and railways running north to Quetta-DG-Khan-Islamabad-Peshawar with one spur going to Multan-Lahore. The Chinese role was crucial as it would require at least $25 billion to build up the required infra to link Gwadar with 200 million people of Pakistan along the Western Corridor.

Sadly and tragically this has not happened. Gwadar Port has been built up but the Western Corridor only exists on paper. Some roads are being built but these will never rival the rail and motorway infra of the Eastern Corridor. So all trade will by definition continue rolling along the established eastern corridor, The present monopolies will continue to function as they are.

Frankly Gwadar Port is like a *beached Whale* that is not going anywhere. Let us just think from the POV of a exporter in Sialkot. Do you think you will send your products by truck or rail to Karachi and then have them trucked another 200 miles along the Makran Highway to Gwadar? You would be pretty dumb to do that. As you could easily use Port Qasim or Port Karachi. Why would you add another 200 miles of road and all the costs and time that would imply. For sake of using Gwadar? That is ridicalous.

The other possibilty is use the Quetta-Gwadar route or the alignment of the Western Corridior. The problem is the roads are terrible and law/order is not ideal. Why not just use the excellant M2-M3-M4-M5 motorways to Karach Port? So I am afraid as long as the Western Corridor does not recieve at least $25 billion to build proper motorway followed by proper security Gwadar will remain a beached whale and a white elephant with some ships forced to land there just for photo-ops.

Why the Chinese have not continued with CPEC with the gusto they showed at the outset is another subject we need to look at. But as thing stand CPEC has failed to bring transformation to Pakistan's economy. It has however brought some short term benefits. But sadly not the revolution we all hoped it would bring in.

*CPEC has stalled.*




In short why would you do this and add almost 200 miles transport costs so you can shout "GWADAR"?

Reactions: Like Like:
7 | Haha Haha:
1 | Sad Sad:
1


----------



## 313ghazi

I don't think the roads etc are finished yet are they? It's pretty pointless without them.

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Haha Haha:
1 | Sad Sad:
1


----------



## Muhammad Omar

ML1 not started yet 
Gwadar power plant still no sign of it 
Gwadar Port extension nothing happening 
Sukuur Hyderabad Motorway no work
Dhabeji Rashakai Gwadar Economic Zone nothing much on it 
Havelian Dry port no work 
660 MW Thar Coal Power plant work at snail pace 
330 MW Thal Nova Thar Coal project not started 
1320 MW SSRL Thar Coal project not started 
600 MW Quaid-e-Azam Solar power Project still pending 
Gwadar Eastbay delayed still under construction 
Gwadar Airport working at snail pace 
Gwadar hospital no sign of it
Gwadar free zone no work being done 
Karachi Circular Railway LOL 
Quetta Mass Transit nothing on ground 
Peshawar Greater Circular Train Nothing on it 
It park worth $1.2 billion in Islamabad nothing on it 
Mohmand Marble City no work being done 
AJK economic zone nothing being done 


If someone says CPEC is still underway and is under construction he should shut up this Government is just not doing anything on CPEC these projects are the short and Medium term projects these doesn't include any long term projects 

Yeah some Hydropower projects like Suki Kinari and Karot are under Construction while Kohala Azad Pattan are still pending

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## Vortex

Question is is Pakistan able to export what others countries need ? Another question do Pakistan know how to do marketing of its products ?
Yes I know I have already posted same questions and few others on some others thread.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Love Love:
1


----------



## doorstar

Muhammad Omar said:


> ML1 not started yet
> Gwadar power plant still no sign of it
> Gwadar Port extension nothing happening
> Sukuur Hyderabad Motorway no work
> Dhabeji Rashakai Gwadar Economic Zone nothing much on it
> Havelian Dry port no work
> 660 MW Thar Coal Power plant work at snail pace
> 330 MW Thal Nova Thar Coal project not started
> 1320 MW SSRL Thar Coal project not started
> 600 MW Quaid-e-Azam Solar power Project still pending
> Gwadar Eastbay delayed still under construction
> Gwadar Airport working at snail pace
> Gwadar hospital no sign of it
> Gwadar free zone no work being done
> Karachi Circular Railway LOL
> Quetta Mass Transit nothing on ground
> Peshawar Greater Circular Train Nothing on it
> It park worth $1.2 billion in Islamabad nothing on it
> Mohmand Marble City no work being done
> AJK economic zone nothing being done
> 
> 
> If someone says CPEC is still underway and is under construction he should shut up this Government is just not doing anything on CPEC these projects are the short and Medium term projects these doesn't include any long term projects
> 
> Yeah some Hydropower projects like Suki Kinari and Karot are under Construction while Kohala Azad Pattan are still pending


they must be waiting for fat pandit's return so that he can makes his 20% or for Sayyad ghardari to get his 35%

Reactions: Love Love:
1 | Haha Haha:
1


----------



## TheSnakeEatingMarkhur

Indus Pakistan said:


> Okay it's been some five years since the launch of CPEC so we can have audit of progress and see if it has lived upto it's expectations. My view is it has delivered some progress but* failed *to bring substantive change to Pakistan as I would have liked to seen.
> 
> Frankly I am disappointed. What could have been has been missed. CPEC offered the possibility to entirely rework the economy of Pakistan. Bring about a revolution in the way the country traded and opened new vistas. Most importantly it offered the possibility of the corrupt, rentier parasite economic linkages that have taken root in Pakistan and are choking competition. What is wrong with Pakistan's economy? everything as it stands. When a economy of 200 million people can only generate $20 billion exports and the country is forced to live on the ex-pat worker remittances of $22 billion it tells us about what type of industry and trading class we have in Pakistan. They are just rent seekers who do not add value but just export basic products. A good example is Pink Salt which as we know is mined and exported raw to India for it to be processed and sold as brand India with 10 times value addition.
> 
> The present rent seeking, mafia economy is established along the eastern corridor which runs from Peshawar-Lahore-Multan-Sukker-Karachi. Decades of investment dating even from the British era rail system has laid infrastructure along this corridor. Rail and roads all go along this corridor discharging into the only port Karachi. The entire economic and trading system of 200 million people is hinged on Karachi as it is the port there thatr interfaces with the global economy. You want to import a truck from Japan, a car from Germany, a industrial lathe from France, Swiss clock for any of the 200 million purchasers in Pakistan those products will land at Karachi port and then move along the transport infra of the eastern corridor.
> 
> On the other hand whether your a salt miner in Khewra, a Lap;is Lazuli exporter in Peshawar, a sports manufacturer in Sialkot, a tile maker in Multan your goods will travel along that transport infra of the eastern corridor to be exported at Karachi port.
> 
> So the entire trading order is lynched on Karachi pivoted on Karachi and geared towards minimum value addition and reliant on subsidies or monopolies. Competition is seen as sin. This is why despite everything Pakistani industry will continue to be feeble and fail to take off like Bangladesh has. The rent seekers will just make excuses come PTI, PPP, PML.
> 
> The infographic below sums up the lay of the eastern corridor. Karachi is vital and is the final point where a national level "bhatta tax" is inflicted by various vested interests in that city which tend to be either PPP or MQM controlled. The entire 1,000 mile corridor will be get stuck here unless some money is not exchanged.
> 
> View attachment 713009
> 
> 
> 
> CPEC however offered a tantalising possibility of breaking this entrenched rent seeking economic order thart has taken root over the decades with chockehold at Karach port that has the entire country hostage. As explained above the economic activity of 200 million people rests at the only port to the outside world.
> 
> How so? Gwadar. It offered the possibility of a new port. A possibility of a alternative that would break the chokehold of Karachi. It would offer a chance for a new economic corridor to open up. With it it would bring competition and finally some fresh vigour to the Pakistan economy. This would force change in the eastern corridor as monopoly would be broken with rise of Western economic corridor. Please refer to infographic below.
> 
> View attachment 713010
> 
> 
> 
> For this to work though it is not enough to build a Port at Gwadar. It also needs the Western corridor built that would mean motorways and railways running north to Quetta-DG-Khan-Islamabad-Peshawar with one spur going to Multan-Lahore. The Chinese role was crucial as it would require at least $25 billion to build up the required infra to link Gwadar with 200 million people of Pakistan along the Western Corridor.
> 
> Sadly and tragically this has not happened. Gwadar Port has been built up but the Western Corridor only exists on paper. Some roads are being built but these will never rival the rail and motorway infra of the Eastern Corridor. So all trade will by definition continue rolling along the established eastern corridor, The present monopolies will continue to function as they are.
> 
> Frankly Gwadar Port is like a *beached Whale* that is not going anywhere. Let us just think from the POV of a exporter in Sialkot. Do you think you will send your products by truck or rail to Karachi and then have them trucked another 200 miles along the Makran Highway to Gwadar? You would be pretty dumb to do that. As you could easily use Port Qasim or Port Karachi. Why would you add another 200 miles of road and all the costs and time that would imply. For sake of using Gwadar? That is ridicalous.
> 
> The other possibilty is use the Quetta-Gwadar route or the alignment of the Western Corridior. The problem is the roads are terrible and law/order is not ideal. Why not just use the excellant M2-M3-M4-M5 motorways to Karach Port? So I am afraid as long as the Western Corridor does not recieve at least $25 billion to build proper motorway followed by proper security Gwadar will remain a beached whale and a white elephant with some ships forced to land there just for photo-ops.
> 
> Why the Chinese have not continued with CPEC with the gusto they showed at the outset is another subject we need to look at. But as thing stand CPEC has failed to bring transformation to Pakistan's economy. It has however brought some short term benefits. But sadly not the revolution we all hoped it would bring in.
> 
> *CPEC has stalled.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In short why would you do this and add almost 200 miles transport costs so you can shout "GWADAR"?
> 
> View attachment 713014


And you are judging CPEC based on road maps ? 🤔😆

CPEC is a 40 years plan not 5 or 10 you do know that ?

Roads are just a small part of bigger picture which has SEZs, Infrastructure like power generation related Infrastructure.. then agricultural part of it... Tech part of it... I mean 2nd phase is just starting..

Reactions: Like Like:
9


----------



## Bawag

Indus Pakistan said:


> Okay it's been some five years since the launch of CPEC so we can have audit of progress and see if it has lived upto it's expectations. My view is it has delivered some progress but* failed *to bring substantive change to Pakistan as I would have liked to seen.
> 
> Frankly I am disappointed. What could have been has been missed. CPEC offered the possibility to entirely rework the economy of Pakistan. Bring about a revolution in the way the country traded and opened new vistas. Most importantly it offered the possibility of the corrupt, rentier parasite economic linkages that have taken root in Pakistan and are choking competition. What is wrong with Pakistan's economy? everything as it stands. When a economy of 200 million people can only generate $20 billion exports and the country is forced to live on the ex-pat worker remittances of $22 billion it tells us about what type of industry and trading class we have in Pakistan. They are just rent seekers who do not add value but just export basic products. A good example is Pink Salt which as we know is mined and exported raw to India for it to be processed and sold as brand India with 10 times value addition.
> 
> The present rent seeking, mafia economy is established along the eastern corridor which runs from Peshawar-Lahore-Multan-Sukker-Karachi. Decades of investment dating even from the British era rail system has laid infrastructure along this corridor. Rail and roads all go along this corridor discharging into the only port Karachi. The entire economic and trading system of 200 million people is hinged on Karachi as it is the port there thatr interfaces with the global economy. You want to import a truck from Japan, a car from Germany, a industrial lathe from France, Swiss clock for any of the 200 million purchasers in Pakistan those products will land at Karachi port and then move along the transport infra of the eastern corridor.
> 
> On the other hand whether your a salt miner in Khewra, a Lap;is Lazuli exporter in Peshawar, a sports manufacturer in Sialkot, a tile maker in Multan your goods will travel along that transport infra of the eastern corridor to be exported at Karachi port.
> 
> So the entire trading order is lynched on Karachi pivoted on Karachi and geared towards minimum value addition and reliant on subsidies or monopolies. Competition is seen as sin. This is why despite everything Pakistani industry will continue to be feeble and fail to take off like Bangladesh has. The rent seekers will just make excuses come PTI, PPP, PML.
> 
> The infographic below sums up the lay of the eastern corridor. Karachi is vital and is the final point where a national level "bhatta tax" is inflicted by various vested interests in that city which tend to be either PPP or MQM controlled. The entire 1,000 mile corridor will be get stuck here unless some money is not exchanged.
> 
> View attachment 713009
> 
> 
> 
> CPEC however offered a tantalising possibility of breaking this entrenched rent seeking economic order thart has taken root over the decades with chockehold at Karach port that has the entire country hostage. As explained above the economic activity of 200 million people rests at the only port to the outside world.
> 
> How so? Gwadar. It offered the possibility of a new port. A possibility of a alternative that would break the chokehold of Karachi. It would offer a chance for a new economic corridor to open up. With it it would bring competition and finally some fresh vigour to the Pakistan economy. This would force change in the eastern corridor as monopoly would be broken with rise of Western economic corridor. Please refer to infographic below.
> 
> View attachment 713010
> 
> 
> 
> For this to work though it is not enough to build a Port at Gwadar. It also needs the Western corridor built that would mean motorways and railways running north to Quetta-DG-Khan-Islamabad-Peshawar with one spur going to Multan-Lahore. The Chinese role was crucial as it would require at least $25 billion to build up the required infra to link Gwadar with 200 million people of Pakistan along the Western Corridor.
> 
> Sadly and tragically this has not happened. Gwadar Port has been built up but the Western Corridor only exists on paper. Some roads are being built but these will never rival the rail and motorway infra of the Eastern Corridor. So all trade will by definition continue rolling along the established eastern corridor, The present monopolies will continue to function as they are.
> 
> Frankly Gwadar Port is like a *beached Whale* that is not going anywhere. Let us just think from the POV of a exporter in Sialkot. Do you think you will send your products by truck or rail to Karachi and then have them trucked another 200 miles along the Makran Highway to Gwadar? You would be pretty dumb to do that. As you could easily use Port Qasim or Port Karachi. Why would you add another 200 miles of road and all the costs and time that would imply. For sake of using Gwadar? That is ridicalous.
> 
> The other possibilty is use the Quetta-Gwadar route or the alignment of the Western Corridior. The problem is the roads are terrible and law/order is not ideal. Why not just use the excellant M2-M3-M4-M5 motorways to Karach Port? So I am afraid as long as the Western Corridor does not recieve at least $25 billion to build proper motorway followed by proper security Gwadar will remain a beached whale and a white elephant with some ships forced to land there just for photo-ops.
> 
> Why the Chinese have not continued with CPEC with the gusto they showed at the outset is another subject we need to look at. But as thing stand CPEC has failed to bring transformation to Pakistan's economy. It has however brought some short term benefits. But sadly not the revolution we all hoped it would bring in.
> 
> *CPEC has stalled.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In short why would you do this and add almost 200 miles transport costs so you can shout "GWADAR"?
> 
> View attachment 713014



This is why a Retired General Saab are put in-charge of CPEC. Things were slowing down and then Covid19 hit it hard. 

Relax PDF General Sir, things will pick-up the pace from mid-to-end of 2021

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Ace of Spades

Development of Gwadar is the end of Dubai project
Economic development of Pakistan is end of GCC's monopoly in ummah
Don't discount Iran as well... they are at their best because chips are down
and then in all that there is GCC, India, US nexus and all have different reasons to not let this project to reach it's potential
Now I am afraid it will be not materialized and will rather convert into a military project. Pakistan's establishment, policy makers has the history of making blunders and loosing opportunities given on platter. When GCC needed Pakistan, she could've had made a deal for better business opportunities but they instead settled on gulami and personal grants.
When US needed Pakistan, they settled on few F 16s and few billion in personal pockets. Could've had made strategic gains in economy and development of it's people.
Now china needs Pakistan and Pakistan is settling on roads, and loans. Pakistan needs to be the hub for China's industry and should be materializing chinese industry's relocation in Pakistan.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## vi-va

It's the one man one vote system, make all interest groups sucking blood of Pakistan.

Infrastructure is just infrastructure. Road, railway, power stations, power grid, ports are tools, it's the man who using the tools made life meaningful and different.

There was no country on earth got prosperous by adopting western political system.

Korea is set up , hijacked, controlled and funded by US. *Korea actually is a cooperation Samsung covered by a country.*
Taiwan is set up, hijacked, controlled and funded by US, same as Korea. Taiwan developed fast when Chiang Ching-kuo rules, no one man one vote, but declining when western political system adopted. Taiwan economy is still ok, not because of western political system, but the huge market of mainland China.
HK was prosperous because of it was the only place for western power to do business with China, and declining when China opened up more cities. and* most importantly HKer has no voting rights at all when British was in charge.*
Singapore was prosperous, because of Strait of Malacca and LKY. *While Singapore was one party state just like China which adopted meritocracy.*

The western countries got prosperous by looting others for centuries, and then became what they are nowadays, then start declining because of one man one vote system.

And by the way, one man one vote can be anything.

Most African countries has one man one vote, but literally corrupted, disordered, disorganized, decayed.
Philippine has US constitution, and one man one vote, but just a bunch of oligarchies running the islands.
Thailand has one man one vote, but coup every 2 -4 years. It's the 21st coup going on.
The list goes on.

Let's those illiteracies vote and decide the fate of the country, is very irresponsible.

Any country which want to get prospers should not copy those western countries, but those developing countries which is developing faster than others, such as Vietnam, China. Korea, Taiwan is good case study, but Pakistan should take a very careful looks at Korea, Taiwan 60s-90s not nowadays.

It's the political will and people built Pakistan, infrastructure can be a starter, an engine, but the driving power still in the hands of Pakistanis.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## ARMalik

Indus Pakistan said:


> Okay it's been some five years since the launch of CPEC so we can have audit of progress and see if it has lived upto it's expectations. My view is it has delivered some progress but* failed *to bring substantive change to Pakistan as I would have liked to seen.
> 
> Frankly I am disappointed. What could have been has been missed. CPEC offered the possibility to entirely rework the economy of Pakistan. Bring about a revolution in the way the country traded and opened new vistas. Most importantly it offered the possibility of the corrupt, rentier parasite economic linkages that have taken root in Pakistan and are choking competition. What is wrong with Pakistan's economy? everything as it stands. When a economy of 200 million people can only generate $20 billion exports and the country is forced to live on the ex-pat worker remittances of $22 billion it tells us about what type of industry and trading class we have in Pakistan. They are just rent seekers who do not add value but just export basic products. A good example is Pink Salt which as we know is mined and exported raw to India for it to be processed and sold as brand India with 10 times value addition.
> 
> The present rent seeking, mafia economy is established along the eastern corridor which runs from Peshawar-Lahore-Multan-Sukker-Karachi. Decades of investment dating even from the British era rail system has laid infrastructure along this corridor. Rail and roads all go along this corridor discharging into the only port Karachi. The entire economic and trading system of 200 million people is hinged on Karachi as it is the port there thatr interfaces with the global economy. You want to import a truck from Japan, a car from Germany, a industrial lathe from France, Swiss clock for any of the 200 million purchasers in Pakistan those products will land at Karachi port and then move along the transport infra of the eastern corridor.
> 
> On the other hand whether your a salt miner in Khewra, a Lap;is Lazuli exporter in Peshawar, a sports manufacturer in Sialkot, a tile maker in Multan your goods will travel along that transport infra of the eastern corridor to be exported at Karachi port.
> 
> So the entire trading order is lynched on Karachi pivoted on Karachi and geared towards minimum value addition and reliant on subsidies or monopolies. Competition is seen as sin. This is why despite everything Pakistani industry will continue to be feeble and fail to take off like Bangladesh has. The rent seekers will just make excuses come PTI, PPP, PML.
> 
> The infographic below sums up the lay of the eastern corridor. Karachi is vital and is the final point where a national level "bhatta tax" is inflicted by various vested interests in that city which tend to be either PPP or MQM controlled. The entire 1,000 mile corridor will be get stuck here unless some money is not exchanged.
> 
> View attachment 713009
> 
> 
> 
> CPEC however offered a tantalising possibility of breaking this entrenched rent seeking economic order thart has taken root over the decades with chockehold at Karach port that has the entire country hostage. As explained above the economic activity of 200 million people rests at the only port to the outside world.
> 
> How so? Gwadar. It offered the possibility of a new port. A possibility of a alternative that would break the chokehold of Karachi. It would offer a chance for a new economic corridor to open up. With it it would bring competition and finally some fresh vigour to the Pakistan economy. This would force change in the eastern corridor as monopoly would be broken with rise of Western economic corridor. Please refer to infographic below.
> 
> View attachment 713010
> 
> 
> 
> For this to work though it is not enough to build a Port at Gwadar. It also needs the Western corridor built that would mean motorways and railways running north to Quetta-DG-Khan-Islamabad-Peshawar with one spur going to Multan-Lahore. The Chinese role was crucial as it would require at least $25 billion to build up the required infra to link Gwadar with 200 million people of Pakistan along the Western Corridor.
> 
> Sadly and tragically this has not happened. Gwadar Port has been built up but the Western Corridor only exists on paper. Some roads are being built but these will never rival the rail and motorway infra of the Eastern Corridor. So all trade will by definition continue rolling along the established eastern corridor, The present monopolies will continue to function as they are.
> 
> Frankly Gwadar Port is like a *beached Whale* that is not going anywhere. Let us just think from the POV of a exporter in Sialkot. Do you think you will send your products by truck or rail to Karachi and then have them trucked another 200 miles along the Makran Highway to Gwadar? You would be pretty dumb to do that. As you could easily use Port Qasim or Port Karachi. Why would you add another 200 miles of road and all the costs and time that would imply. For sake of using Gwadar? That is ridicalous.
> 
> The other possibilty is use the Quetta-Gwadar route or the alignment of the Western Corridior. The problem is the roads are terrible and law/order is not ideal. Why not just use the excellant M2-M3-M4-M5 motorways to Karach Port? So I am afraid as long as the Western Corridor does not recieve at least $25 billion to build proper motorway followed by proper security Gwadar will remain a beached whale and a white elephant with some ships forced to land there just for photo-ops.
> 
> Why the Chinese have not continued with CPEC with the gusto they showed at the outset is another subject we need to look at. But as thing stand CPEC has failed to bring transformation to Pakistan's economy. It has however brought some short term benefits. But sadly not the revolution we all hoped it would bring in.
> 
> *CPEC has stalled.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In short why would you do this and add almost 200 miles transport costs so you can shout "GWADAR"?
> 
> View attachment 713014



*CPEC started in 2013 and you want outcomes in 7-years??* Dude, you have ZERO concept of *INFRASTRUCTURE strategic outcomes*. Let me give you an example. I did a project of $200 Million Dollars in 2012, and it was only in 2020 that I achieved the Revenue, Financial and technical objectives of this project !! And here you are going on about a giant $62 Billion dollar project !! For God sakes! 

*You are suppose to be 'Elite Member' but unfortunately there is nothing ELITE about this thread and your post.*

Reactions: Like Like:
10 | Love Love:
1 | Haha Haha:
2


----------



## NAS & GOA

Brother the actually issue is is that CPEC is all about Maritime infrastructure off GwaDAr. The previous government successfully managed to ensure that nothing actually at Gwadar was built however it is not the case now. At least since last year, projects are now up coming and hopefully it will succeed. Without Maritime infrastructure at Gwadar, CPEC is just an extension of Karakoram highway...period

no matter how many Left right projects and Highways you built, if there are no maritime infrastructure at Gwadar, cpec is bound to fail.... A strategy successfully adopted by previous govt

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## HostileInsurgent

I am not trolling or such just asking Pakistani friends on PDF that how can CPEC actually help Pakistan. As far as I know, 

1. The Chinese workers working on the projects and raw materials for the same are coming from China.

2. It is a bilateral corridor hence Chinese products will flood into Pakistani markets and minimal will be sent to China as Pakistan doesn’t have a manufacturing industry to that level.

3. 62 Billion dollar loan is being given to Pakistan by China including an amount as investment, that amount is being spent by Pakistan on Chinese workers and raw materials hence all the money is returning to China and Pakistan is getting free loans.

I’m just curious so don’t curse me pls.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## doorstar

HostileInsurgent said:


> Chinese workers working on the projects and raw materials for the same are coming from China.


yup, look at them there Chinese dominating the workforce

























tipper truck drivers in Thar, aaaall darkest of Chinese not a Pakistani in sight (except two on the right)

Reactions: Like Like:
5 | Haha Haha:
9


----------



## PanzerKiel

doorstar said:


> yup, look at them there Chinese dominating the workforce
> View attachment 713067
> 
> 
> View attachment 713071
> 
> 
> View attachment 713075
> 
> 
> View attachment 713083
> 
> 
> View attachment 713084
> 
> 
> tipper truck drivers in Thar, aaaall darkest of Chinese not a Pakistani in sight (except two on the right)




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1355941074867421185

Reactions: Like Like:
5 | Love Love:
3


----------



## HostileInsurgent

doorstar said:


> yup, look at them there Chinese dominating the workforce
> View attachment 713067
> 
> 
> View attachment 713071
> 
> 
> View attachment 713075
> 
> 
> View attachment 713083
> 
> 
> View attachment 713084
> 
> 
> tipper truck drivers in Thar, aaaall darkest of Chinese not a Pakistani in sight (except two on the right)


Are majority of workers Pakistani in the whole project?


----------



## imranyounus

Overall three main culprits

1 Un sincere bureaucrats
2 corrupt and self centered political parties
3 Opportunist business class.

the primary fault was sincerity.

What was required was a simple central northwest route. Starting from the new propused route from yarkhand via muzaffarabad than through manshira attock mianwali D I Khan Khulu Bolan Khuzdar awaran and end at gawadar.

it should have been one main big road. once this road could have been made operational all other cities could have been connected with it though link roads or upgrade existing roads.
that should have been the model. First build utmost necessary infrastructure. Which could have started economic activities. Than go for associated development and economic activities.
Instead what we get is selfishly bureaucrats. corrupt and nationalist politicians and selfish businessman.

bureaucrats are not interested in Pakistan and its development. They never bother to plan anything.

Corrupt politician from punjab and sind wanted to develop their own province. while nationalist wanted every part of it in their own constituency. whay you need three roads when the entire width of Pakistan is just 600 KM and a road passing through above mentioned district's means that western border was at most just 150 kM from it. but they were actually wanted it running parallel to western border. 
While the business community just wanted to develop their existing infrastructure on eastern side.

And the result is now you get roads being developed every where on expensive loans on eastern side on western side without any economic activities and benefits

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Shabi1

Indus Pakistan said:


> Okay it's been some five years since the launch of CPEC so we can have audit of progress and see if it has lived upto it's expectations. My view is it has delivered some progress but* failed *to bring substantive change to Pakistan as I would have liked to seen.
> 
> Frankly I am disappointed. What could have been has been missed. CPEC offered the possibility to entirely rework the economy of Pakistan. Bring about a revolution in the way the country traded and opened new vistas. Most importantly it offered the possibility of the corrupt, rentier parasite economic linkages that have taken root in Pakistan and are choking competition. What is wrong with Pakistan's economy? everything as it stands. When a economy of 200 million people can only generate $20 billion exports and the country is forced to live on the ex-pat worker remittances of $22 billion it tells us about what type of industry and trading class we have in Pakistan. They are just rent seekers who do not add value but just export basic products. A good example is Pink Salt which as we know is mined and exported raw to India for it to be processed and sold as brand India with 10 times value addition.
> 
> The present rent seeking, mafia economy is established along the eastern corridor which runs from Peshawar-Lahore-Multan-Sukker-Karachi. Decades of investment dating even from the British era rail system has laid infrastructure along this corridor. Rail and roads all go along this corridor discharging into the only port Karachi. The entire economic and trading system of 200 million people is hinged on Karachi as it is the port there thatr interfaces with the global economy. You want to import a truck from Japan, a car from Germany, a industrial lathe from France, Swiss clock for any of the 200 million purchasers in Pakistan those products will land at Karachi port and then move along the transport infra of the eastern corridor.
> 
> On the other hand whether your a salt miner in Khewra, a Lap;is Lazuli exporter in Peshawar, a sports manufacturer in Sialkot, a tile maker in Multan your goods will travel along that transport infra of the eastern corridor to be exported at Karachi port.
> 
> So the entire trading order is lynched on Karachi pivoted on Karachi and geared towards minimum value addition and reliant on subsidies or monopolies. Competition is seen as sin. This is why despite everything Pakistani industry will continue to be feeble and fail to take off like Bangladesh has. The rent seekers will just make excuses come PTI, PPP, PML.
> 
> The infographic below sums up the lay of the eastern corridor. Karachi is vital and is the final point where a national level "bhatta tax" is inflicted by various vested interests in that city which tend to be either PPP or MQM controlled. The entire 1,000 mile corridor will be get stuck here unless some money is not exchanged.
> 
> View attachment 713009
> 
> 
> 
> CPEC however offered a tantalising possibility of breaking this entrenched rent seeking economic order thart has taken root over the decades with chockehold at Karach port that has the entire country hostage. As explained above the economic activity of 200 million people rests at the only port to the outside world.
> 
> How so? Gwadar. It offered the possibility of a new port. A possibility of a alternative that would break the chokehold of Karachi. It would offer a chance for a new economic corridor to open up. With it it would bring competition and finally some fresh vigour to the Pakistan economy. This would force change in the eastern corridor as monopoly would be broken with rise of Western economic corridor. Please refer to infographic below.
> 
> View attachment 713010
> 
> 
> 
> For this to work though it is not enough to build a Port at Gwadar. It also needs the Western corridor built that would mean motorways and railways running north to Quetta-DG-Khan-Islamabad-Peshawar with one spur going to Multan-Lahore. The Chinese role was crucial as it would require at least $25 billion to build up the required infra to link Gwadar with 200 million people of Pakistan along the Western Corridor.
> 
> Sadly and tragically this has not happened. Gwadar Port has been built up but the Western Corridor only exists on paper. Some roads are being built but these will never rival the rail and motorway infra of the Eastern Corridor. So all trade will by definition continue rolling along the established eastern corridor, The present monopolies will continue to function as they are.
> 
> Frankly Gwadar Port is like a *beached Whale* that is not going anywhere. Let us just think from the POV of a exporter in Sialkot. Do you think you will send your products by truck or rail to Karachi and then have them trucked another 200 miles along the Makran Highway to Gwadar? You would be pretty dumb to do that. As you could easily use Port Qasim or Port Karachi. Why would you add another 200 miles of road and all the costs and time that would imply. For sake of using Gwadar? That is ridicalous.
> 
> The other possibilty is use the Quetta-Gwadar route or the alignment of the Western Corridior. The problem is the roads are terrible and law/order is not ideal. Why not just use the excellant M2-M3-M4-M5 motorways to Karach Port? So I am afraid as long as the Western Corridor does not recieve at least $25 billion to build proper motorway followed by proper security Gwadar will remain a beached whale and a white elephant with some ships forced to land there just for photo-ops.
> 
> Why the Chinese have not continued with CPEC with the gusto they showed at the outset is another subject we need to look at. But as thing stand CPEC has failed to bring transformation to Pakistan's economy. It has however brought some short term benefits. But sadly not the revolution we all hoped it would bring in.
> 
> *CPEC has stalled.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In short why would you do this and add almost 200 miles transport costs so you can shout "GWADAR"?
> 
> View attachment 713014



We don't have the spare $$$ to spend extravagantly on media accomplishments. ML1 project progress was in news couple of months ago that should be enough news that things are progressing.
Current gov approach on projects generally is focus on long term ones with strategic importance instead of short term projects that could be finished during their 5yr tenure. Politically its not the right move but shows sincerity with the country.




__





FAQS | China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) Authority Official Website


CPEC | China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) Official Website Develop By Ministry of Planning Development & Special Initiatives CPEC Authority 'P' block Pak-Secretariat, Islamabad,Pakistan. China-Pakistan Economic Corridor is a framework of regional connectivity. CPEC will not only benefit...




cpec.gov.pk








__





Progress Update | China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) Authority Official Website


CPEC | China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) Official Website Develop By Ministry of Planning Development & Special Initiatives CPEC Authority 'P' block Pak-Secretariat, Islamabad,Pakistan. China-Pakistan Economic Corridor is a framework of regional connectivity. CPEC will not only benefit...




cpec.gov.pk





That said CPEC investment inflow is concluding in next couple of years and more increase in size of the project should not be sought as it will become difficult for us to repay the loans which are made at pretty decent returns for China. CPEC is a win win for both Pakistan and China but if it is increased further repayment will become unmanageable. Which is why Bundal Islands and Ravi City projects are the next big things that have to progress.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Rajputana_

vi-va said:


> Korea is set up , hijacked, controlled and funded by US. *Korea actually is a cooperation Samsung covered by a country.*
> Taiwan is set up, hijacked, controlled and funded by US, same as Korea. Taiwan developed fast when Chiang Ching-kuo rules, no one man one vote, but declining when western political system adopted. Taiwan economy is still ok, not because of western political system, but the huge market of mainland China.
> HK was prosperous because of it was the only place for western power to do business with China, and declining when China opened up more cities. and* most importantly HKer has no voting rights at all when British was in charge.*
> Singapore was prosperous, because of Strait of Malacca and LKY. *While Singapore was one party state just like China which adopted meritocracy*



Is this sarcastic?

Literally every country listed here has more freedom and more prosperity for its citizens than China...


----------



## Enigma SIG

The map @Indus Pakistan shows the roads in the most hostile terrain known to man. To make this viable you'd need to post the army along the whole route in todays conditions.


----------



## doorstar

Enigma SIG said:


> The map @Indus Pakistan shows the roads in the most hostile terrain known to man. To make this viable you'd need to post the army along the whole route in todays conditions.


SSD (Special Security Division of the Army) is a force of more than 15000 men that guard these roads
soon there would be Maritime Security Force consisting of 10k for Gwadar port and other coastal areas

Reactions: Like Like:
3 | Love Love:
3


----------



## Nasr

To know people who complain about CPEC, I ask you this, what initiative have you taken as a Pakistani to help out your fellow countryman? What efforts have you made to seek out opportunities arisen from CPEC? Instead of criticizing, what contributions have you made toward advancing Pakistan? 

Most of the time, the ones who complain, are the ones who are the couch potatoes who feel they're entitled to things, or are complacent, procrastinators and one of the parasitic class that feed off of corrupt politicians. 

As a Muslim, it is your duty to seek out the truth, and with it make the effort to improve your's and everyone else's lives around you, in a halal manner. Analyze without being condescending or arrogant. When you point out a flaw, always offer a solution or remedy with it.

Be constructive, not disruptive.

Reactions: Like Like:
9 | Love Love:
2


----------



## vi-va

Rajputana_ said:


> Is this sarcastic?
> 
> Literally every country listed here has more freedom and more prosperity for its citizens than China...


Every Indians I met in US won't go back. I ask them why, everyone tell me the same that they don't want to go back $hitty place.

Reactions: Like Like:
8


----------



## Nasr

vi-va said:


> Every Indians I met in US won't go back. I ask them why, everyone tell me the say that they don't want to go back $hitty place.



Here is where we as Muslims, must part ways in approach mentality, from indians. They (indians) don't want to leave america, since they consider india to be too messed up to go back to. As a Muslim, we are duty bound to face challenges head-on. We as Muslims ought to return to Pakistan, to improve our country's state, in every field. Be it education for our young, be it developing opportunities for employment for our countrymen, or be it to contribute towards the Pakistan's progress as a whole. We have it in us, to make things better. 

It was a few who embraced Islam, when our beloved Prophet Muhammad Alaihi Salaat-u-Wassalam came. The few Muslims who faced the odds heavily and brutally stacked against them. What did they do? Did they abandon Nabi Muhammad Alaihi Salaat-u-Wassalam or did they fight to preserve their Imaan in Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah? As a Muslim, we must come back to our country, our Pakistan and strive to better the lives of our people, and to raise our Pakistan to heights of success and prosperity. A Muslim doesn't get worried when confronted with a difficult situation. 

Do you (Pakistanis) remember what Muhammad Ali Jinnah imparted to us when addressing the Muslims? He said, and I quote "_*Musalmaan museebat main, ghubraya nahin karta.*_" 

Remember these words, whenever you feel discouraged to come back to Pakistan and to contribute towards it's betterment and that of our people.


----------



## waq

What about the debt trap that was mounting in the name of the CPEC? Useless and costly projects have been included in CPEC just because "the chance of earnings" are astronomical in the name of CPEC. Just consider the case of Karachi Circular Railway that is being pushed under the umbrella of CPEC. This project can easily been developed using Pakistani resources. However due a cPEC project, the result would be foreign loan taken for a project that would have a hard time generating revenue even in Pak Rupee.

Another cause of concern is the minimal use of Pakistani resources in developing the projects. Mostly foreign resources are being used in CPEC. 

For these reasons, the stalling of CPEC has been somewhat of a boon for Pakistan in these crunch times because we would have lesser foreign debt to pay for development that is nowhere to be seen.


----------



## Tomcats

Indus Pakistan said:


> Okay it's been some five years since the launch of CPEC so we can have audit of progress and see if it has lived upto it's expectations. My view is it has delivered some progress but* failed *to bring substantive change to Pakistan as I would have liked to seen.
> 
> Frankly I am disappointed. What could have been has been missed. CPEC offered the possibility to entirely rework the economy of Pakistan. Bring about a revolution in the way the country traded and opened new vistas. Most importantly it offered the possibility of the corrupt, rentier parasite economic linkages that have taken root in Pakistan and are choking competition. What is wrong with Pakistan's economy? everything as it stands. When a economy of 200 million people can only generate $20 billion exports and the country is forced to live on the ex-pat worker remittances of $22 billion it tells us about what type of industry and trading class we have in Pakistan. They are just rent seekers who do not add value but just export basic products. A good example is Pink Salt which as we know is mined and exported raw to India for it to be processed and sold as brand India with 10 times value addition.
> 
> The present rent seeking, mafia economy is established along the eastern corridor which runs from Peshawar-Lahore-Multan-Sukker-Karachi. Decades of investment dating even from the British era rail system has laid infrastructure along this corridor. Rail and roads all go along this corridor discharging into the only port Karachi. The entire economic and trading system of 200 million people is hinged on Karachi as it is the port there thatr interfaces with the global economy. You want to import a truck from Japan, a car from Germany, a industrial lathe from France, Swiss clock for any of the 200 million purchasers in Pakistan those products will land at Karachi port and then move along the transport infra of the eastern corridor.
> 
> On the other hand whether your a salt miner in Khewra, a Lap;is Lazuli exporter in Peshawar, a sports manufacturer in Sialkot, a tile maker in Multan your goods will travel along that transport infra of the eastern corridor to be exported at Karachi port.
> 
> So the entire trading order is lynched on Karachi pivoted on Karachi and geared towards minimum value addition and reliant on subsidies or monopolies. Competition is seen as sin. This is why despite everything Pakistani industry will continue to be feeble and fail to take off like Bangladesh has. The rent seekers will just make excuses come PTI, PPP, PML.
> 
> The infographic below sums up the lay of the eastern corridor. Karachi is vital and is the final point where a national level "bhatta tax" is inflicted by various vested interests in that city which tend to be either PPP or MQM controlled. The entire 1,000 mile corridor will be get stuck here unless some money is not exchanged.
> 
> View attachment 713009
> 
> 
> 
> CPEC however offered a tantalising possibility of breaking this entrenched rent seeking economic order thart has taken root over the decades with chockehold at Karach port that has the entire country hostage. As explained above the economic activity of 200 million people rests at the only port to the outside world.
> 
> How so? Gwadar. It offered the possibility of a new port. A possibility of a alternative that would break the chokehold of Karachi. It would offer a chance for a new economic corridor to open up. With it it would bring competition and finally some fresh vigour to the Pakistan economy. This would force change in the eastern corridor as monopoly would be broken with rise of Western economic corridor. Please refer to infographic below.
> 
> View attachment 713010
> 
> 
> 
> For this to work though it is not enough to build a Port at Gwadar. It also needs the Western corridor built that would mean motorways and railways running north to Quetta-DG-Khan-Islamabad-Peshawar with one spur going to Multan-Lahore. The Chinese role was crucial as it would require at least $25 billion to build up the required infra to link Gwadar with 200 million people of Pakistan along the Western Corridor.
> 
> Sadly and tragically this has not happened. Gwadar Port has been built up but the Western Corridor only exists on paper. Some roads are being built but these will never rival the rail and motorway infra of the Eastern Corridor. So all trade will by definition continue rolling along the established eastern corridor, The present monopolies will continue to function as they are.
> 
> Frankly Gwadar Port is like a *beached Whale* that is not going anywhere. Let us just think from the POV of a exporter in Sialkot. Do you think you will send your products by truck or rail to Karachi and then have them trucked another 200 miles along the Makran Highway to Gwadar? You would be pretty dumb to do that. As you could easily use Port Qasim or Port Karachi. Why would you add another 200 miles of road and all the costs and time that would imply. For sake of using Gwadar? That is ridicalous.
> 
> The other possibilty is use the Quetta-Gwadar route or the alignment of the Western Corridior. The problem is the roads are terrible and law/order is not ideal. Why not just use the excellant M2-M3-M4-M5 motorways to Karach Port? So I am afraid as long as the Western Corridor does not recieve at least $25 billion to build proper motorway followed by proper security Gwadar will remain a beached whale and a white elephant with some ships forced to land there just for photo-ops.
> 
> Why the Chinese have not continued with CPEC with the gusto they showed at the outset is another subject we need to look at. But as thing stand CPEC has failed to bring transformation to Pakistan's economy. It has however brought some short term benefits. But sadly not the revolution we all hoped it would bring in.
> 
> *CPEC has stalled.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In short why would you do this and add almost 200 miles transport costs so you can shout "GWADAR"?
> 
> View attachment 713014





Shabi1 said:


> We don't have the spare $$$ to spend extravagantly on media accomplishments. ML1 project progress was in news couple of months ago that should be enough news that things are progressing.
> Current gov approach on projects generally is focus on long term ones with strategic importance instead of short term projects that could be finished during their 5yr tenure. Politically its not the right move but shows sincerity with the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FAQS | China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) Authority Official Website
> 
> 
> CPEC | China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) Official Website Develop By Ministry of Planning Development & Special Initiatives CPEC Authority 'P' block Pak-Secretariat, Islamabad,Pakistan. China-Pakistan Economic Corridor is a framework of regional connectivity. CPEC will not only benefit...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpec.gov.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Progress Update | China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) Authority Official Website
> 
> 
> CPEC | China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) Official Website Develop By Ministry of Planning Development & Special Initiatives CPEC Authority 'P' block Pak-Secretariat, Islamabad,Pakistan. China-Pakistan Economic Corridor is a framework of regional connectivity. CPEC will not only benefit...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpec.gov.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That said CPEC investment inflow is concluding in next couple of years and more increase in size of the project should not be sought as it will become difficult for us to repay the loans which are made at pretty decent returns for China. CPEC is a win win for both Pakistan and China but if it is increased further repayment will become unmanageable. Which is why Bundal Islands and Ravi City projects are the next big things that have to progress.


It would also help that the project be a bit more transparent so we can actually see and perhaps even have a say in the way things go about it, but alas.

I myself am not a fan of this Bundal Islands project, to me they are an environmental hazard and shows nobody has learnt from the mayhem that ensued in Karachi during the monsoon season. Already there are major issues in maintaining and providing facilities to multiple areas of Karachi as well as a dire need to rehabilitate them, despite this they want to build more facility intensive areas? On top of that it seems there has been nothing taking into account the ecological impact, the Bundal Islands are a place where Crabs go and create their next of kin and where many other types of sea creatures' habitat, they would be adversely affected by such activities.


----------



## doorstar

Issam said:


> It would also help that the project be a bit more transparent so we can actually see and perhaps even have a say in the way things go about it, but alas.


I know right! I keep messaging them suggesting that they must consult the PDF PhDs but for some inexplicable reason never get any response. Alas!  Oh, woe is me!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Tomcats

doorstar said:


> I know right! I keep messaging them suggesting that they must consult the PDF PhDs but for some inexplicable reason never get any response. Alas!  Oh, woe is me!


That's a nice way to spin it, thank you for your highly constructive criticism, you truly are the hallmark of a PDF PhD member.


----------



## Muhammad Omar

doorstar said:


> they must be waiting for fat pandit's return so that he can makes his 20% or for Sayyad ghardari to get his 35%



For whomever they are waiting for but for surely they ain't gonna start the mentioned projects anytime soon


----------



## nahtanbob

CPEC will work if Chinese buy Pakistani products

But the CPEC projects are structured to pay Chinese companies and workers for their services
The only problem is that Pakistani populace will be paying the bills unless Chinese government decides to take a haircut on the loans

If infrastructure is a criteria for success Saudi Arabia will be world class industrial power


----------



## TaiShang

nahtanbob said:


> CPEC will work if Chinese buy Pakistani products
> 
> But the CPEC projects are structured to pay Chinese companies and workers for their services
> The only problem is that Pakistani populace will be paying the bills unless Chinese government decides to take a haircut on the loans
> 
> If infrastructure is a criteria for success Saudi Arabia will be world class industrial power



CPEC creates a corridor, it is not planned to end in Pakistan. 

So, there is more to be earned here as a corridor, but not an end market. To do trade with China, Pakistan does not need CPEC-sized project.

CPEC is run by Pakistan and built by Pakistani workers in collaboration with China.

Funds do not come from a single source-country as your manipulated mind imagines. For instance, AIIB joins a number of projects, hence, the loan it provides is international.

Infrastructure is not the only condition for success, but, an essential one.

Schools, hospitals, energy grids are all infrastructure. They help create a more quality people, who help build a better economy.

If development without infrastructure would be feasible, India would be Saudi Arabia today.

No wonder FDR initiated New Deal in the US in the 30s to build more call centers and IT colleges.

Reactions: Like Like:
4 | Love Love:
1 | Haha Haha:
1


----------



## PAKISTANFOREVER

nahtanbob said:


> CPEC will work if Chinese buy Pakistani products
> 
> But the CPEC projects are structured to pay Chinese companies and workers for their services
> The only problem is that Pakistani populace will be paying the bills unless Chinese government decides to take a haircut on the loans
> 
> If infrastructure is a criteria for success Saudi Arabia will be world class industrial power






So an indian really knows all this do they?.......... ...........as typical indian you also have 0 evidence for the above.........

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Indus Pakistan

TaiShang said:


> CPEC creates a *corridor*, it is not planned to end in Pakistan.


If you read my opening post you would know this is exactly my point. Despite 5 years plus of CPEC *no corridor *has been created. All we have is a port with almost know transport infra connecting it with the hinterland. Gwadar is thus like a *beached whale* with rusting cranes that see a ship once every month - even that to keep up the pretence.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Norwegian

Muhammad Omar said:


> this Government is just not doing anything on CPEC


Maybe you can pay for trade deficit and debt CPEC projects take on.


----------



## Muhammad Omar

Norwegian said:


> Maybe you can pay for trade deficit and debt CPEC projects take on.



LOL most of the CPEC Project made are on BOT basis (Build Operate and Transfer) they are still under China and will be transferred to Government of Pakistan after 25 years when they'll get their money invested back from the projects itself along with 2.5% interest rate 

About Trade deficit well the government shouted they have reduced the trade deficit so what's stopping them to restart the projects?? 

The current government can't even finalise the terms and conditions or SOP for starting the new projects with China that's why they send BAJWA sahab to China again and again but yet Chinese are reluctant 

Why do you think even after giving many deadlines about the construction work or ground work of Rashakai Economic Zone to initiate they still are unable to start the construction of Rashakai Economic Zone 😁😁

Reactions: Haha Haha:
1


----------



## Ghost Hobbit

Rajputana_ said:


> Is this sarcastic?
> 
> Literally every country listed here has more freedom and more prosperity for its citizens than China...


Isn't it strange? I've been listening about game changer CPEC for about 15 years. The principle was build it and people/ industries etc. will come. Now they've built some stuff (power plants and stuff) and the response has been null. You didn't need to spend 45 billion to build a power plant and that harbor in Gawadar is the only port after hambentota to be completely empty. This clear looks like hambantota part-2 but with more massive losses.


Muhammad Omar said:


> LOL most of the CPEC Project made are on BOT basis (Build Operate and Transfer) they are still under China and will be transferred to Government of Pakistan after 25 years when they'll get their money invested back from the projects itself along with 2.5% interest rate
> 
> About Trade deficit well the government shouted they have reduced the trade deficit so what's stopping them to restart the projects??
> 
> The current government can't even finalise the terms and conditions or SOP for starting the new projects with China that's why they send BAJWA sahab to China again and again but yet Chinese are reluctant
> 
> Why do you think even after giving many deadlines about the construction work or ground work of Rashakai Economic Zone to initiate they still are unable to start the construction of Rashakai Economic Zone 😁😁



maybe because it won't make a difference. The world is coming to realize that the chinese provide unrealistic assessments of projects under CPEC whose results are actually zero.

You wanna know why there is no silk road anymore...because there is no need for a silk road. Cost of transport by sea is 15% of the cost by land. Why would any manufacturer bother to send by land?

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Norwegian

Muhammad Omar said:


> About Trade deficit well the government shouted they have reduced the trade deficit so what's stopping them to restart the projects??


This:






There will be current account crisis just like 2018 if govt fast speed CPEC


Muhammad Omar said:


> The current government can't even finalise the terms and conditions or SOP for starting the new projects with China that's why they send BAJWA sahab to China again and again but yet Chinese are reluctant


Yes Chinese are reluctant because they no longer have your Mian Saanp who bought anything China sold.








CPEC a gift from China to Pakistan: PM Nawaz | The Express Tribune


China waited for PML-N rule before making CPEC investment, claims PM Nawaz Sharif




tribune.com.pk










Muhammad Omar said:


> Why do you think even after giving many deadlines about the construction work or ground work of Rashakai Economic Zone to initiate they still are unable to start the construction of Rashakai Economic Zone 😁😁


Why don't you ask Chinese coronavirus about it?


Ghost Hobbit said:


> Isn't it strange? I've been listening about game changer CPEC for about 15 years. The principle was build it and people/ industries etc. will come. Now they've built some stuff (power plants and stuff) and the response has been null. You didn't need to spend 45 billion to build a power plant and that harbor in Gawadar is the only port after hambentota to be completely empty. This clear looks like hambantota part-2 but with more massive losses.


CPEC is a game changer for China because Pakistan only had debt growth after it was initiated.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Kingslayerr

HostileInsurgent said:


> Are majority of workers Pakistani in the whole project?


Jee han meri jan. ML1 alone is said to generate 150000 jobs 90% of which will be given to Pakistanis while 10% will be Chinese. Par ye bat india kahan phonchygi.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Haha Haha:
1


----------



## Muhammad Omar

Norwegian said:


> This:
> View attachment 713215
> 
> 
> There will be current account crisis just like 2018 if govt fast speed CPEC
> 
> Yes Chinese are reluctant because they no longer have your Mian Saanp who bought anything China sold.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CPEC a gift from China to Pakistan: PM Nawaz | The Express Tribune
> 
> 
> China waited for PML-N rule before making CPEC investment, claims PM Nawaz Sharif
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tribune.com.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 713216
> 
> 
> Why don't you ask Chinese coronavirus about it?
> 
> CPEC is a game changer for China because Pakistan only had debt growth after it was initiated.


Ok so coronavirus is behind it that CPEC Stalled 👍🏻👍🏻 looks like coronavirus will stay till 2023 after that CPEC will restart again and gain pace

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ghost Hobbit

Norwegian said:


> This:
> View attachment 713215
> 
> 
> There will be current account crisis just like 2018 if govt fast speed CPEC
> 
> Yes Chinese are reluctant because they no longer have your Mian Saanp who bought anything China sold.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CPEC a gift from China to Pakistan: PM Nawaz | The Express Tribune
> 
> 
> China waited for PML-N rule before making CPEC investment, claims PM Nawaz Sharif
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tribune.com.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 713216
> 
> 
> Why don't you ask Chinese coronavirus about it?
> 
> CPEC is a game changer for China because Pakistan only had debt growth after it was initiated.



Now that you have made a frank confession, it's time for us to make a frank confession too....why do you think India opposes belt and Road initiatives? Any economist can do the math that most of these projects are complete duds whose main purpose is to keep chinese laborers employed as their real estate industry slows down. Why do you think there are anxious and heart wrenching pangs in Indian establishment every time a project is announed under belt and road...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Muhammad Omar

Ghost Hobbit said:


> Isn't it strange? I've been listening about game changer CPEC for about 15 years. The principle was build it and people/ industries etc. will come. Now they've built some stuff (power plants and stuff) and the response has been null. You didn't need to spend 45 billion to build a power plant and that harbor in Gawadar is the only port after hambentota to be completely empty. This clear looks like hambantota part-2 but with more massive losses.
> 
> 
> maybe because it won't make a difference. The world is coming to realize that the chinese provide unrealistic assessments of projects under CPEC whose results are actually zero.
> 
> You wanna know why there is no silk road anymore...because there is no need for a silk road. Cost of transport by sea is 15% of the cost by land. Why would any manufacturer bother to send by land?


Well CPEC results are not actually zero for Pakistan 

Electricity projects 
Airports 
Motorway 
Mass transit projects 
Dams 

Are actually fruitful results of CPEC 😁😁

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Norwegian

Muhammad Omar said:


> Well CPEC results are not actually zero for Pakistan
> 
> Electricity projects
> Airports
> Motorway
> Mass transit projects
> Dams
> 
> Are actually fruitful results of CPEC 😁😁


It's all well and good as long debt growth stalls. So far CPEC growth only led to external debt growth which is not sustainable


----------



## Ghost Hobbit

@Norwegian the reason India opposes Belt and Road is....money. See...they suckered India out of 10 Billion for these projects well before they were announced. We are trying our best to halt the proejcts because we are scared we will lose all that cash.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Norwegian

Muhammad Omar said:


> Ok so coronavirus is behind it that CPEC Stalled 👍🏻👍🏻 looks like coronavirus will stay till 2023 after that CPEC will restart again and gain pace


Why Noonies are in a hurry to complete CPEC? Is the debt and trade deficit money to finance CPEC coming from Mian Saanps personal accounts?


----------



## Muhammad Omar

Norwegian said:


> It's all well and good as long debt growth stalls. So far CPEC growth only led to external debt growth which is not sustainable
> View attachment 713239


We can't blame CPEC only as most of the projects gives a time frame of 25 years to return the amount back with interest 

Lack of increase of Export high imports and taking news loans for returning the previous are major factors


Norwegian said:


> Why Noonies are in a hurry to complete CPEC? Is the debt and trade deficit money to finance CPEC coming from Mian Saanps personal accounts?


CPEC is not a debt trap 









CPEC not a ‘debt-trap’ but a boon for Pakistan | The Express Tribune


Country reaps windfall economic gains since inception of corridor




www.google.com

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Norwegian

Ghost Hobbit said:


> Now that you have made a frank confession, it's time for us to make a frank confession too....why do you think India opposes belt and Road initiatives? Any economist can do the math that most of these projects are complete duds whose main purpose is to keep chinese laborers employed as their real estate industry slows down. Why do you think there are anxious and heart wrenching pangs in Indian establishment every time a project is announed under belt and road...


I am not against CPEC. It's a great development initiative for Pakistan and beyond. However its finance model needs revisiting as its pro China.


Muhammad Omar said:


> CPEC is not a debt trap


If it's not, why CPEC is stalled? Because Pakistan does not wish to go back to 2018 current account and debt crisis CPEC led to.


----------



## 313ghazi

HostileInsurgent said:


> I am not trolling or such just asking Pakistani friends on PDF that how can CPEC actually help Pakistan. As far as I know,
> 
> 1. The Chinese workers working on the projects and raw materials for the same are coming from China.
> 
> 2. It is a bilateral corridor hence Chinese products will flood into Pakistani markets and minimal will be sent to China as Pakistan doesn’t have a manufacturing industry to that level.
> 
> 3. 62 Billion dollar loan is being given to Pakistan by China including an amount as investment, that amount is being spent by Pakistan on Chinese workers and raw materials hence all the money is returning to China and Pakistan is getting free loans.
> 
> I’m just curious so don’t curse me pls.



1. I believe most of the workers are Pakistan, but I suspect most of the experts are Chinese. I doubt raw materials are coming from China (apart from steel) but a lot of the machinery will be coming from China.

2. CPEC is more than a corridor. Full details of the projects and progress can be seen here. http://cpec.gov.pk/progress-update 

The idea is that through development of infrastructure, establishment of SEZ's, ending the power deficit, we'll create the physical environment required to help industry flourish in Pakistan. The transit of goods to and through Pakistan is only a very small part of this project. The hope is to attract foreign investors to setup manufacturing and other industry in Pakistan and also encourage local companies to compete with them. Note i used the word hope - i'll touch on that later on in this post.

3. The biggest winner of CPEC is China - this is the same for all OBOR projects. They turn cash into loans which will be returned making a profit. They also create jobs and investment opportunities abroad for their companies and skilled workers. Eventually they generate easy access to export markets for their own products. That doesn't mean the partners in these projects are set to lose; but they have no garunatee of a win. Pakistan must utilise the infrastructure and opportunity created by CPEC and we will win massively, if we don't we will lose. 



nahtanbob said:


> CPEC will work if Chinese buy Pakistani products
> 
> But the CPEC projects are structured to pay Chinese companies and workers for their services
> The only problem is that Pakistani populace will be paying the bills unless Chinese government decides to take a haircut on the loans
> 
> *If infrastructure is a criteria for success Saudi Arabia will be world class industrial power*



100% agree. As i was saying to @HostileInsurgent Pakistan must work to take advantage of the infrastructure developed to actually see any benefits. A few years ago our textile industry was shutting down because power outages were making doing business unaffordable. Today it's back in boom. 

We have a power surplus now, What's the benefit of a power surplus though? Nothing really, not unless we can increase our industrial output to take advantage of it. 

Similarly we have an FTA with China, but do we really benefit if our goods aren't able to penetrate the Chinese market? The opportunity is there though, it's up to our businesses to take advantage of them. 


Ultimately a saying comes to mind... you can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. 

The Pakistani horse has taken out quite a loan to get access to water, it is thirsty, but will it drink?

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## HostileInsurgent

Kingslayerr said:


> Jee han meri jan. ML1 alone is said to generate 150000 jobs 90% of which will be given to Pakistanis while 10% will be Chinese. Par ye bat india kahan phonchygi.


I was just asking.


----------



## TNT

Our rent mentality reallly is a hindrance. Any investors or people with some money i come across want to build a plaza or market or shops and sit and enjoy the rent. No one wants to start manufacturing and exporting, where actually real money can be made. At most we export raw products.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Indus Pakistan

Guys this thread has gone off tangent. Few points to note. CPEC has not stalled because of any debt payment issues. If anybody takes the time to see Pakistan's debt payment profile the CPEC component is very small part of it. If Pakistan is in debt trap it is to other lenders - mostly based in West.

Also when I say stall I mean the corridor itself - in red below. After all CPEC is touted as a "corridor". Thus far only the port has been made opersational but the corridor that was supposed to 'feed' it has not been built.







Thus Gwadar today is just a port like a marooned ship. It has no transport infra to convey the corridor. This is the thrust of this thread. Yes, work under CPEC on other secondary projects continues but the corridor was supposed to be lynchpin of the project. Sadly this has not been taken up with gusto by the Chinese.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## TaiShang

Indus Pakistan said:


> If you read my opening post you would know this is exactly my point. Despite 5 years plus of CPEC *no corridor *has been created. All we have is a port with almost know transport infra connecting it with the hinterland. Gwadar is thus like a *beached whale* with rusting cranes that see a ship once every month - even that to keep up the pretence.



I think, as other members pointed out, it needs time. 

Such a massive project in such a fragile region needs just more than funds: Security structure, education institutions and a whole new culture of development not only in Pakistan, but also in the region (like Afghanistan) so that Pakistan would be truly a corridor as well as participant in trade. 

CPEC is as much political as it is economic. Political aspect can only be helped by people themselves. China would not interfere. So ling as the other political leg is weak, economic leg can only make slow progress - although I do not think the CPEC is that slow.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## TaiShang

Ghost Hobbit said:


> Isn't it strange? I've been listening about game changer CPEC for about 15 years. The principle was build it and people/ industries etc. will come. Now they've built some stuff (power plants and stuff) and the response has been null. You didn't need to spend 45 billion to build a power plant and that harbor in Gawadar is the only port after hambentota to be completely empty. This clear looks like hambantota part-2 but with more massive losses.
> 
> 
> maybe because it won't make a difference. The world is coming to realize that the chinese provide unrealistic assessments of projects under CPEC whose results are actually zero.
> 
> You wanna know why there is no silk road anymore...because there is no need for a silk road. Cost of transport by sea is 15% of the cost by land. Why would any manufacturer bother to send by land?



Actually, Hambantota is not complete yet, as well. It is also only one of the four port projects SL launched. 

And No, unlike Western/Indian claims, there is no debt trap, and the project is just one of many. 









China’s Belt Road Initiative: Hambantota Port an example of China’s Debt Diplomacy? - Silk Road Briefing


By Andre Wheeler An alternative headline for this article could quite easily have been: “Does Sri Lanka really want Hambantota Port returned”. This question is a response to the numerous recent headlines that claim that Sri Lanka’s newly elected government is demanding a return of the Port...



www.silkroadbriefing.com





Some context to Sri Lanka debt is needed to better understand why Hambantota is such a political football. Sri Lanka’s international debt obligations by the end of 2015, was such that $17billion was required to pay for maturing foreign loans between 2019 and 2023. With $55 billion in foreign debt and foreign reserves only totalling $8.3 million, Sri Lanka was headed for financial ruin. It is worthwhile noting that *China accounted for only 10% of that debt. *This raises some interesting questions as to the veracity of claims that only China uses the notion of “debt diplomacy”.

Another claim made is that China charges high commercial interest rates in order to secure indebtedness of Countries. However, when looking at a typical loan structure offered by China, they are offered on concessional terms, at a rate of 2% with a *typical repayment period of 20 years as well as a grace period for repayment between 5 – 12 years*. In the case of Hambantota, there were five loans paid to Sri Lanka between 2007 and 2014 to construct the Port. Whilst the total amounted to around $1.3billion, only $357 million were obtained at the higher commercial interest rate of 6%, the balance have been given at the concessionary rate of 2%. Furthermore, the loan repayment instalments required by China’s EXIM Bank, only accounted for 5% of Sri Lanka’s TOTAL foreign debt repayments.

_*It should also be noted that there was no ‘debt for asset “swap. *_*There has been no debt written off in exchange for equity. *The Loans and Port Lease agreements are separate items, as such 70% of Hambantota has been leased for 99 years to China. The remaining 30% is held by the Sri Lanka Port Authority, with joint operations of the port. In other words, Sri Lanka still owns the port and the $1.12 billion paid in lease agreement was used, not to pay for construction of the port but used to cover Sri Lanka’s balance of payments issues.

China’s Belt& Road Initiative Is Being Blamed For Sri Lanka’s Hambantota Port Problems. But The Real Story Is Rather Different

It is safe to say that claims around China’s predatory “debt diplomacy” strategy, does not stand up to scrutiny. As is argued by the Chief Economist at the Eurasian Fund for Stabilization and Development, China uses its Triple A credit rating to allow developing countries with lower credit ratings, to access funds at lower rates of interest. This is particularly true of the Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank. Furthermore, it allows developing nations to build infrastructure itself to generate loan repayments.

There is also an ongoing claim that Hambantota was a poor choice in terms of location and commercial viability. Of interest is the claim that the shallow draft at the port entrance was a substantial limitation. Some context is needed to understand the issue. The idea of the port was first conceived in 1997. The issue of depth and access were raised as were other issues that needed to be addressed during the development phase. This is typical of all port developments. For example, *Darwin port in northern Australia, had to deal with a depth of 6 meters due to rock and tidal movements, India’s Sittwe port in Myanmar’s north had to accommodate ongoing silting issues in its development plans. *These issues do not necessarily mean that a location is unviable as a port.


Ghost Hobbit said:


> Now that you have made a frank confession, it's time for us to make a frank confession too....why do you think India opposes belt and Road initiatives? Any economist can do the math that most of these projects are complete duds whose main purpose is to keep chinese laborers employed as their real estate industry slows down. Why do you think there are anxious and heart wrenching pangs in Indian establishment every time a project is announed under belt and road...



Actually, real estate investment was up by 6+% in 2020 despite about half of the year the country was on a standstill.



China's property investment up 7 pct in 2020--China Economic Net

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## TaiShang

Norwegian said:


> Why Noonies are in a hurry to complete CPEC? Is the debt and trade deficit money to finance CPEC coming from Mian Saanps personal accounts?



See this way: India has nothing to do with BRI. Yet, it is a net debtor. Even its military procurement is debt-based.

To be in debt, you do not need BRI. You just need incompetent, corrupt political and business class.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Love Love:
1 | Haha Haha:
1


----------



## Indus Pakistan

TaiShang said:


> I think, as other members pointed out, it needs time.
> 
> Such a massive project in such a fragile region needs just more than funds: Security structure, education institutions and a whole new culture of development not only in Pakistan, but also in the region (like Afghanistan) so that Pakistan would be truly a corridor as well as participant in trade.
> 
> CPEC is as much political as it is economic. Political aspect can only be helped by people themselves. China would not interfere. So ling as the other political leg is weak, economic leg can only make slow progress - although I do not think the CPEC is that slow.


I agree with you. The issue with Pakistan is that as a society it is still stuck in the narrative of middle ages and feudal structures. Their solution to the undeveloped condition of the people to find solutions in the very thought that is cause of their backwardness. Pakistan is like before Meiji Japan and the forces that refuse to accept the modern world hold the upper hand. Anybody suggesting moving forward will be called 'gora' [White] or Westoxified liberal beap bleap. Such is the hold of this primitive culture that if this was applied to China you still would be dressed like middle ages China and your women would be walking around in small wooden shoes. Socialism or communism would be branded a European dirty system etc.

So no doubt the problems are in Pakistan. However the western corridor could be developed in 7 years with about $25 billion outlay. I know that is lot of money but for a country like China it's small change. If China pushed ahead and regarded it as Marshal Plan for a ally the corridor would develop and with two decades be a rip roaring success that would transform Pakistan.

I give you one example. The eastern corridor with Karachi as the port was laid by British in 1880s when this region was mostly just desert. If the British had carried out a economic audit the laying down of the Eastern corridor [which was a rail line linking north with Karachi] it would have made no sense. But over the succeeding decades that investment became Pakistan's core economic corridor.

I think China now needs to be more aggressive in it's support of it's allies like USA was to Europe post WW2. It will not only beneit Pakistan but benefit China by having a solid and strong ally with huge trade potential.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Love Love:
5


----------



## Microsoft

TaiShang said:


> I think, as other members pointed out, it needs time.
> 
> Such a massive project in such a fragile region needs just more than funds: Security structure, education institutions and a whole new culture of development not only in Pakistan, but also in the region (like Afghanistan) so that Pakistan would be truly a corridor as well as participant in trade.
> 
> CPEC is as much political as it is economic. Political aspect can only be helped by people themselves. China would not interfere. So ling as the other political leg is weak, economic leg can only make slow progress - although I do not think the CPEC is that slow.



What are China's plans for development in the western part of the country? I think that is the main incentive for China to fully back CPEC. If China has no real incentive then of course the project is likely to lag because Pakistan is generally lazy and probably does not have the expertise to complete this as fast without Chinese help. Covid and the Uighur issue in Xinjiang also don't help.

Reactions: Love Love:
1


----------



## Unite & Defend

If any Pakistani questions the viability of CPEC on this thread - YOU ARE SIMPLY A DUMB ***. 

CPEC is a fu.king GAME CHANGER. 

Get your ***-UP and take advantage of it, before the opportunities pass you by. 

All that is required is a new power order and how society/processes are created and governed within Pakistan!!!!
China waiting, times ticking.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Love Love:
1


----------



## TaiShang

Microsoft said:


> What are China's plans for development in the western part of the country? I think that is the main incentive for China to fully back CPEC. If China has no real incentive then of course the project is likely to lag because Pakistan is generally lazy and probably does not have the expertise to complete this as fast without Chinese help. Covid and the Uighur issue in Xinjiang also don't help.



Western China is currently fastest developing region in the country. China does not have a one size fits all approach. Rather, it is very localized, based on local advantages. For example, in CN's poorest region, Guizhou, AI and big data industries are set up. Tencent, Alibaba, Huawei, Inspur,Lenovo etc. all have research and development centers there. Tibet region is projected as a nature tourism and food industry area. Xinjiang region is being designed as a trade hub with food and textile industries as well as cultural tourism. Last year the region received more than 200 million (mostly) domestic and foreign tourists. I think once COVID is over, Xinjiang lodging business will grow exponentially. Pakistan can utilize Xinjiang trade services (especially online retail such as Tmall, JD or Pinduoduo, and export to the rest of Mainland.

Reactions: Like Like:
5 | Love Love:
1


----------



## Ghost Hobbit

TaiShang said:


> Actually, Hambantota is not complete yet, as well. It is also only one of the four port projects SL launched.
> 
> And No, unlike Western/Indian claims, there is no debt trap, and the project is just one of many.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China’s Belt Road Initiative: Hambantota Port an example of China’s Debt Diplomacy? - Silk Road Briefing
> 
> 
> By Andre Wheeler An alternative headline for this article could quite easily have been: “Does Sri Lanka really want Hambantota Port returned”. This question is a response to the numerous recent headlines that claim that Sri Lanka’s newly elected government is demanding a return of the Port...
> 
> 
> 
> www.silkroadbriefing.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some context to Sri Lanka debt is needed to better understand why Hambantota is such a political football. Sri Lanka’s international debt obligations by the end of 2015, was such that $17billion was required to pay for maturing foreign loans between 2019 and 2023. With $55 billion in foreign debt and foreign reserves only totalling $8.3 million, Sri Lanka was headed for financial ruin. It is worthwhile noting that *China accounted for only 10% of that debt. *This raises some interesting questions as to the veracity of claims that only China uses the notion of “debt diplomacy”.
> 
> Another claim made is that China charges high commercial interest rates in order to secure indebtedness of Countries. However, when looking at a typical loan structure offered by China, they are offered on concessional terms, at a rate of 2% with a *typical repayment period of 20 years as well as a grace period for repayment between 5 – 12 years*. In the case of Hambantota, there were five loans paid to Sri Lanka between 2007 and 2014 to construct the Port. Whilst the total amounted to around $1.3billion, only $357 million were obtained at the higher commercial interest rate of 6%, the balance have been given at the concessionary rate of 2%. Furthermore, the loan repayment instalments required by China’s EXIM Bank, only accounted for 5% of Sri Lanka’s TOTAL foreign debt repayments.
> 
> _*It should also be noted that there was no ‘debt for asset “swap. *_*There has been no debt written off in exchange for equity. *The Loans and Port Lease agreements are separate items, as such 70% of Hambantota has been leased for 99 years to China. The remaining 30% is held by the Sri Lanka Port Authority, with joint operations of the port. In other words, Sri Lanka still owns the port and the $1.12 billion paid in lease agreement was used, not to pay for construction of the port but used to cover Sri Lanka’s balance of payments issues.
> 
> China’s Belt& Road Initiative Is Being Blamed For Sri Lanka’s Hambantota Port Problems. But The Real Story Is Rather Different
> 
> It is safe to say that claims around China’s predatory “debt diplomacy” strategy, does not stand up to scrutiny. As is argued by the Chief Economist at the Eurasian Fund for Stabilization and Development, China uses its Triple A credit rating to allow developing countries with lower credit ratings, to access funds at lower rates of interest. This is particularly true of the Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank. Furthermore, it allows developing nations to build infrastructure itself to generate loan repayments.
> 
> There is also an ongoing claim that Hambantota was a poor choice in terms of location and commercial viability. Of interest is the claim that the shallow draft at the port entrance was a substantial limitation. Some context is needed to understand the issue. The idea of the port was first conceived in 1997. The issue of depth and access were raised as were other issues that needed to be addressed during the development phase. This is typical of all port developments. For example, *Darwin port in northern Australia, had to deal with a depth of 6 meters due to rock and tidal movements, India’s Sittwe port in Myanmar’s north had to accommodate ongoing silting issues in its development plans. *These issues do not necessarily mean that a location is unviable as a port.
> 
> 
> Actually, real estate investment was up by 6+% in 2020 despite about half of the year the country was on a standstill.
> 
> 
> 
> China's property investment up 7 pct in 2020--China Economic Net



I think you should just stop this BS. Everyone knows Hambentota is finished. And Gawadar isn't picking up at all.


----------



## TaiShang

Ghost Hobbit said:


> I think you should just stop this BS. Everyone knows Hambentota is finished. And Gawadar isn't picking up at all.



You are wrong, not everyone. 

Theport is not complete. You need to understand that, by itself, a port facility is of little use. You need a whole ecosystem.

Second phase in Hambantota is complete. Third phase may be finished by 2013 .

Third phase includes port development, such as a ''duty free zone, cement grinding, storage and bagging facilities, a fertiliser manufacturing, storage and packaging plant, LP Gas distribution facility, a warehousing complex, a vehicle assembling facility, flour mill, a food processing and packaging facility and other associated import-export businesses.''









Port of Hambantota


The Port of Hambantota, also called Ruhunu Magampura International Port, is a new international ship port being developed in phases in Hambantota, southern Sri Lanka. The port will be used by ships travelling between the busiest east-west shipping routes that are located at about 10nm from...




www.ship-technology.com

Reactions: Like Like:
3 | Haha Haha:
1


----------



## Ghost Hobbit

TaiShang said:


> You are wrong, not everyone.
> 
> Theport is not complete. You need to understand that, by itself, a port facility is of little use. You need a whole ecosystem.
> 
> Second phase in Hambantota is complete. Third phase may be finished by 2013 .
> 
> Third phase includes port development, such as a ''duty free zone, cement grinding, storage and bagging facilities, a fertiliser manufacturing, storage and packaging plant, LP Gas distribution facility, a warehousing complex, a vehicle assembling facility, flour mill, a food processing and packaging facility and other associated import-export businesses.''
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Port of Hambantota
> 
> 
> The Port of Hambantota, also called Ruhunu Magampura International Port, is a new international ship port being developed in phases in Hambantota, southern Sri Lanka. The port will be used by ships travelling between the busiest east-west shipping routes that are located at about 10nm from...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ship-technology.com



The ecosystem was the lie. You knew it. And still you misled them.


----------



## nahtanbob

TaiShang said:


> Actually, Hambantota is not complete yet, as well. It is also only one of the four port projects SL launched.
> 
> And No, unlike Western/Indian claims, there is no debt trap, and the project is just one of many.



You make it sound like Sri Lanka does not have any ports. They already have one - Colombo. There is no need for Hambantota. It is another ploy for Chinese companies to make money along with corrupted Sri Lankan politicians


313ghazi said:


> 1. I believe most of the workers are Pakistan, but I suspect most of the experts are Chinese. I doubt raw materials are coming from China (apart from steel) but a lot of the machinery will be coming from China.
> 
> 2. CPEC is more than a corridor. Full details of the projects and progress can be seen here. http://cpec.gov.pk/progress-update
> 
> The idea is that through development of infrastructure, establishment of SEZ's, ending the power deficit, we'll create the physical environment required to help industry flourish in Pakistan. The transit of goods to and through Pakistan is only a very small part of this project. The hope is to attract foreign investors to setup manufacturing and other industry in Pakistan and also encourage local companies to compete with them. Note i used the word hope - i'll touch on that later on in this post.
> 
> 3. The biggest winner of CPEC is China - this is the same for all OBOR projects. They turn cash into loans which will be returned making a profit. They also create jobs and investment opportunities abroad for their companies and skilled workers. Eventually they generate easy access to export markets for their own products. That doesn't mean the partners in these projects are set to lose; but they have no garunatee of a win. Pakistan must utilise the infrastructure and opportunity created by CPEC and we will win massively, if we don't we will lose.
> 
> 
> 
> 100% agree. As i was saying to @HostileInsurgent Pakistan must work to take advantage of the infrastructure developed to actually see any benefits. A few years ago our textile industry was shutting down because power outages were making doing business unaffordable. Today it's back in boom.
> 
> We have a power surplus now, What's the benefit of a power surplus though? Nothing really, not unless we can increase our industrial output to take advantage of it.
> 
> Similarly we have an FTA with China, but do we really benefit if our goods aren't able to penetrate the Chinese market? The opportunity is there though, it's up to our businesses to take advantage of them.
> 
> 
> Ultimately a saying comes to mind... you can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
> 
> The Pakistani horse has taken out quite a loan to get access to water, it is thirsty, but will it drink?



China has never pulled any country out of poverty. The ones tied closely to China are North Korea and Myanmar.

The basic problem is no one has gotten rich selling finished products to China. It is one way street. You might supply a few raw materials

Unless Pakistan can repay those loans China is making no money off CPEC


TaiShang said:


> CPEC creates a corridor, it is not planned to end in Pakistan.
> 
> So, there is more to be earned here as a corridor, but not an end market. To do trade with China, Pakistan does not need CPEC-sized project.
> 
> CPEC is run by Pakistan and built by Pakistani workers in collaboration with China.
> 
> Funds do not come from a single source-country as your manipulated mind imagines. For instance, AIIB joins a number of projects, hence, the loan it provides is international.
> 
> Infrastructure is not the only condition for success, but, an essential one.
> 
> Schools, hospitals, energy grids are all infrastructure. They help create a more quality people, who help build a better economy.
> 
> If development without infrastructure would be feasible, India would be Saudi Arabia today.
> 
> No wonder FDR initiated New Deal in the US in the 30s to build more call centers and IT colleges.




Most of CPEC project contracts are to Chinese companies. There are no schools and hospitals in CPECs. It is hard for Chinese companies to make money


USA was a world class industrial power before FDR's New Deal. The New Deal was redistribution of wealth to the working class


----------



## Chakar The Great

Its stupid to think that CPEC has stalled. It did slow down due to massive current account deficit. But its picking up the pace fast.


These projects take decades. I am more than happy and satisfied with CPEC's pace. The fact that over $20Billion US dollars are spent without any corruption speaks volume.

Reactions: Like Like:
4 | Love Love:
1


----------



## PAKISTANFOREVER

nahtanbob said:


> You make it sound like Sri Lanka does not have any ports. They already have one - Colombo. There is no need for Hambantota. It is another ploy for Chinese companies to make money along with corrupted Sri Lankan politicians
> 
> 
> China has never pulled any country out of poverty. The ones tied closely to China are North Korea and Myanmar.
> 
> The basic problem is no one has gotten rich selling finished products to China. It is one way street. You might supply a few raw materials
> 
> Unless Pakistan can repay those loans China is making no money off CPEC
> 
> 
> 
> Most of CPEC project contracts are to Chinese companies. There are no schools and hospitals in CPECs. It is hard for Chinese companies to make money
> 
> 
> USA was a world class industrial power before FDR's New Deal. The New Deal was redistribution of wealth to the working class








All of which you have 0 evidence for............

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ghost Hobbit

Chakar The Great said:


> Its stupid to think that CPEC has stalled. It did slow down due to massive current account deficit. But its picking up the pace fast.
> 
> 
> *These projects take decades. *I am more than happy and satisfied with CPEC's pace. The fact that over $20Billion US dollars are spent without any corruption speaks volume.



Says who? India is about to open the biggest industrial zone in the world supported with the biggest frieght corridoor in the world and the whole thing took about 8 years. Surely you're not suggesting CEPC is anywhere close to that project in scale or scope?


----------



## 313ghazi

Ghost Hobbit said:


> Says who? India is about to open the biggest industrial zone in the world supported with the biggest frieght corridoor in the world and the whole thing took about 8 years. Surely you're not suggesting CEPC is anywhere close to that project in scale or scope?



By the sounds of things CPEC is much bigger. The way you described it, you've built a port and called it an industrial zone. 

*What are the specifics of this project?* The scale of CPEC can be seen here - http://cpec.gov.pk/
----------------------

A few relevant bits of news...











Govt bulldozes CPEC Authority bill through NA


Speaker refuses to give opposition members floor to speak on issue of price hike.



www.dawn.com













Ministries seek time to remove hurdles in CPEC | The Express Tribune


Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi has termed the slow progress on China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) against “national interest”, as the federal and provincial bureaucracy again fails to meet expectations of the political leadership.




tribune.com.pk













Key highlights from the CPEC bill on its way to become law


The CPEC authority will now report to the prime minister, according to provisions of the new bill




www.geo.tv

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Love Love:
1


----------



## TaiShang

nahtanbob said:


> You make it sound like Sri Lanka does not have any ports. They already have one - Colombo. There is no need for Hambantota. It is another ploy for Chinese companies to make money along with corrupted Sri Lankan politicians
> 
> 
> China has never pulled any country out of poverty. The ones tied closely to China are North Korea and Myanmar.
> 
> The basic problem is no one has gotten rich selling finished products to China. It is one way street. You might supply a few raw materials
> 
> Unless Pakistan can repay those loans China is making no money off CPEC
> 
> 
> 
> Most of CPEC project contracts are to Chinese companies. There are no schools and hospitals in CPECs. It is hard for Chinese companies to make money
> 
> 
> USA was a world class industrial power before FDR's New Deal. The New Deal was redistribution of wealth to the working class



Sri Lanka has four port projets.

They need the port.

Indian political class is corrupt.

China is not in the job of pulling countries out of poverty. It does trade. 

Japan is the fourth largest trade partner. ASEAN is the first.

Japanese do get rich by selling lots of stuff. They even enjoy trade surplus. 

General Motors get rich, too.

CPEC projects are multi-financed.

The New Deal built the infrastructure for the next 60 years in the US.

Only India grows without infrastructure.

Reactions: Like Like:
3 | Love Love:
1


----------



## Ghost Hobbit

313ghazi said:


> By the sounds of things CPEC is much bigger. The way you described it, you've built a port and called it an industrial zone.
> 
> *What are the specifics of this project?* The scale of CPEC can be seen here - http://cpec.gov.pk/
> ----------------------
> 
> A few relevant bits of news...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Govt bulldozes CPEC Authority bill through NA
> 
> 
> Speaker refuses to give opposition members floor to speak on issue of price hike.
> 
> 
> 
> www.dawn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ministries seek time to remove hurdles in CPEC | The Express Tribune
> 
> 
> Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi has termed the slow progress on China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) against “national interest”, as the federal and provincial bureaucracy again fails to meet expectations of the political leadership.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tribune.com.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Key highlights from the CPEC bill on its way to become law
> 
> 
> The CPEC authority will now report to the prime minister, according to provisions of the new bill
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.geo.tv



It's the biggest industrial zone in the world, it's 1000s of KMs long, we built an entirely new freight coridoor so that only industrial goods are moved and last week we just tested the longest double stacked electric frieght train the world. *The scale is much bigger than CPEC.

This was the goods train test done barely a few weeks ago. We are opening it in 2 months. I will open a separate thread.





*


----------



## PAKISTANFOREVER

Ghost Hobbit said:


> It's the biggest industrial zone in the world, it's 1000s of KMs long, we built an entirely new freight coridoor so that only industrial goods are moved and last week we just tested the longest double stacked electric frieght train the world. *The scale is much bigger than CPEC.
> 
> This was the goods train test done barely a few weeks ago. We are opening it in 2 months. I will open a separate thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *






Is there ANY evidence to support and confirm your above claims?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ghost Hobbit

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Is there ANY evidence to support and confirm your above claims?



'ANY EVIDENCE' to support the claim that....the biggest Industrial zone in the world  with the biggest freight coridoor in the world is about to open in India in the next two months....I'm gonna say- probably yes. Kinda like...is the blue what the biggest species on the planet...I'd say...probably yes.


----------



## PAKISTANFOREVER

Ghost Hobbit said:


> 'ANY EVIDENCE' to support the claim that....the biggest Industrial zone in the world  with the biggest freight coridoor in the world is about to open in India in the next two months....I'm gonna say- probably yes. Kinda like...is the blue what the biggest species on the planet...I'd say...probably yes.







Just making claims and saying things don't make them true. Can you post a link to some credible evidence that confirms that it will be the biggest industrial zone in the world?

Just FACTS. No meaningless conjectures or hot air.


----------



## Ghost Hobbit

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Just making claims and saying things don't make them true. Can you post a link to some credible evidence that confirms that it will be the biggest industrial zone in the world?
> 
> Just FACTS. No meaningless conjectures or hot air.



It seems to have hit you real hard in some way. One would have thought Pak guys knew about it already.


----------



## PAKISTANFOREVER

Ghost Hobbit said:


> It seems to have hit you real hard in some way. One would have thought Pak guys knew about it already.




Again, you are deviating from the facts and backtracking. Which means there is NO evidence or facts to back up your initial claims........


----------



## Ghost Hobbit

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Again, you are deviating from the facts and backtracking. Which means there is NO evidence or facts to back up your initial claims........



you're right bro. We have no evidence at all.


----------



## Unite & Defend

Pakistan will take a lot of India's current business they have with Western companies, wait and see. 

Once Pakistan has all its ducks in order, our competitive advantage will grow exponentially. 

Costs per units manufactured in Pakistan (production, storage and transportation), will see considerable reductions for all focal companies including all their tiered suppliers within Pakistan's supply chains. - making Pakistani good far more competitively priced. It will be difficult for customers not to buy from Pakistan.

Reactions: Haha Haha:
2


----------



## Arsalan 345

it's already stalled. basically finished. there is so much corruption. nobody wants to invest in pakistan. as i said earlier, civil war is reality. this government is so terrible that you can't even imagine. ministers are only making money.


----------



## 313ghazi

Ghost Hobbit said:


> It's the biggest industrial zone in the world, it's 1000s of KMs long, we built an entirely new freight coridoor so that only industrial goods are moved and last week we just tested the longest double stacked electric frieght train the world. *The scale is much bigger than CPEC.
> 
> This was the goods train test done barely a few weeks ago. We are opening it in 2 months. I will open a separate thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Can you provide a link detailing the scope of the project?

I'm not going to take your word for it. I like to independently verify information that comes from Indians or India.


----------



## Indus Pakistan

@TaiShang For the umpteenth time the issue I see with CPEC is not debt trap - which is just rubbish peddled by Indians and others who have a issue with China. To my mind the problem is the corridor hsas NOT been built. No even close to it. CPEC was about a China Pakistan Economic CORRIDOR. Whilst many projects have been built here and there titled CPEC but the core of CPEC. The establishing of a port at Gwadar and then a infa link. Roads/rail lining Gwadar along the north-south axis thus opening a new trade route and creating a new economic linkages has not taken place.

If you look at the map below only Gwadar port, few miles of A-road going north, a 150 mile motorway right at the norh section of the corridor are anywhere near compoletion. The huge distance inbetween of about 600 miles has nothing. Thus leaving Gwadar effectively with no corridor leading to and my description of that port being a beached whale at the present.









Arsalan 345 said:


> t's already stalled


Stop fcukin bringing in partisan politics you idiot. The issue here is far bigger than any government in Pakistan. It has to do with China and how it runs it's geo-politics, how Pakistan fits in that and the nature of Pakistan culture,socio-political order.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Ghost Hobbit

313ghazi said:


> Can you provide a link detailing the scope of the project?
> 
> I'm not going to take your word for it. I like to independently verify information that comes from Indians or India.


nope. No evidence at all.


----------



## Indos

vi-va said:


> It's the one man one vote system, make all interest groups sucking blood of Pakistan.
> 
> Infrastructure is just infrastructure. Road, railway, power stations, power grid, ports are tools, it's the man who using the tools made life meaningful and different.
> 
> There was no country on earth got prosperous by adopting western political system.
> 
> Korea is set up , hijacked, controlled and funded by US. *Korea actually is a cooperation Samsung covered by a country.*



The strategy of Korea is to let the economy depends on 4-5 Conglomerations. Give them huge incentive so they can grow fast and build capital that is enough to make sophisticated factory. They get protection as well since they are being built before WTO exist.

Today Pakistan has FTA with China even before their domestic industry mature and strong, so Pakistan cannot adopt Korea economic development strategy. I would suggest Pakistan to scrap FTA and also scrap CPEC. The power plan can still be continued but the road and train project should not. If China want to invest in Pakistan for manufacturing, just invest now, no need to wait the motorway and train route project.

There is reason of why Indonesia doesnt want to become part of ASEAN road connection project since it will just smooth the goods coming from ASEAN countries to enter Indonesia market.


----------



## Indus Pakistan

Indos said:


> Today Pakistan


Listen mister the problem with you guys is you know squat all about Pakistan and then you make flawed conclusions. Let me give you a speed intro.

Countries like Indonesia and Malaysia are East Asian equivalents of Oily Arabs. Your literally drowning in natural resources. Those natural resources are huge which then tie you in the global trading system. from that base you can build up because their is sufficient income/capital available to the governments. Pakistan has almost no resources given it's population size and mostly depends on ex-pat foreign remittances thus seriously limiting state's ability to chart a way out.

Malay/Indonesia economies got their jump start from -


oil
coal
gold
gas
rubber
palm oil

Reactions: Like Like:
6 | Love Love:
1


----------



## Indus Pakistan

Take out the natural resources you have, you guys would be dancing with Sub-Saharan Africans. Indonesia produces more oil than UAE, Oman, Bahrain or Qatar.

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Love Love:
1


----------



## Death Professor

Indus Pakistan said:


> Let us just think from the POV of a exporter in Sialkot. Do you think you will send your products by truck or rail to Karachi and then have them trucked another 200 miles along the Makran Highway to Gwadar? You would be pretty dumb to do that. As you could easily use Port Qasim or Port Karachi. Why would you add another 200 miles of road and all the costs and time that would imply. For sake of using Gwadar? That is ridicalous.
> 
> The other possibilty is use the Quetta-Gwadar route or the alignment of the Western Corridior. The problem is the roads are terrible and law/order is not ideal. Why not just use the excellant M2-M3-M4-M5 motorways to Karach Port? So I am afraid as long as the Western Corridor does not recieve at least $25 billion to build proper motorway followed by proper security Gwadar will remain a beached whale and a white elephant with some ships forced to land there just for photo-ops.
> 
> Why the Chinese have not continued with CPEC with the gusto they showed at the outset is another subject we need to look at. But as thing stand CPEC has failed to bring transformation to Pakistan's economy. It has however brought some short term benefits. But sadly not the revolution we all hoped it would bring in.



The main issue, I see is that it would probably need more than 25 B$ to build the western corridor. All the infrastructure is on the eastern side along Indus river having it mostly populated. It wouldn't make sense to invest in Western route from zero, it would take too much time and money. The RoI would come after a long time, when people would "love" to move from their home provinces and live/invest in Baluchistan. Economic zones, infrastructure(electricity, water, land, etc), there is already a base and potential on the eastern side, why invest deeply into a western route so much when you can make eastern route better, much cheaper? Sure your thinking about what happens 70-100 years from now, and I am definitely with you on that, western corridor needs to be built but I don't think this is the need of the hour. And about your question about why would a business man choose Gwadar over Karachi, answer is time. I don't know the current status but these ports will definitely get congested over time. For western route, the base has to be Gwadar, Gwadar has to become a power house and it would force development from south to north towards central Baluchistan rather than from North to South into Baluchistan.


Indus Pakistan said:


> Listen mister the problem with you guys is you know squat all about Pakistan and then you make flawed conclusions. Let me give you a speed intro.
> 
> Countries like Indonesia and Malaysia are East Asian equivalents of Oily Arabs. Your literally drowning in natural resources. Those natural resources are huge which then tie you in the global trading system. from that base you can build up because their is sufficient income/capital available to the governments. Pakistan has almost no resources given it's population size and mostly depends on ex-pat foreign remittances thus seriously limiting state's ability to chart a way out.
> 
> Malay/Indonesia economies got their jump start from -
> 
> 
> oil
> coal
> gold
> gas
> rubber
> palm oil
> 
> View attachment 713467




Well to be fair we had/have huge coal reserves, we just procrastinated over them. Meanwhile China and India made power plants and burned them as much as they could to further their economy. Now that train is gone and there is restrictions on "CHEAP" coal power plants. We could have made use of them while we had the chance, 60's 70's were the right time. Environment friendly coal power plants are expensive.

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Love Love:
1


----------



## vi-va

Indus Pakistan said:


> Listen mister the problem with you guys is you know squat all about Pakistan and then you make flawed conclusions. Let me give you a speed intro.
> 
> Countries like Indonesia and Malaysia are East Asian equivalents of Oily Arabs. Your literally drowning in natural resources. Those natural resources are huge which then tie you in the global trading system. from that base you can build up because their is sufficient income/capital available to the governments. Pakistan has almost no resources given it's population size and mostly depends on ex-pat foreign remittances thus seriously limiting state's ability to chart a way out.
> 
> Malay/Indonesia economies got their jump start from -
> 
> 
> oil
> coal
> gold
> gas
> rubber
> palm oil
> 
> View attachment 713467


Pakistan has man power. Pakistan should leverage man power for labor intensive industry, it will provide more jobs opportunities to ordinary man and women.

Vietnam population 90 millions, export US$267 billion in 2020.
Pakistan population 220 millions, export US$ 23 billions in 2019.

Pakistan should integrate into East/SE Asia supply chain and adopt export driven economy, just like all East/SE Asia countries did.

For export driven economy, Pakistan need Sea Port, more Sea Port, and upgrade existing Sea Port, upgrade and build more railway, connect major cities, along Hindu River. More power stations and connect them all together by power grid. Literally do what China did in past 3 decades.

Let me give you guys an example of Foxconn.

Foxconn employed less than a million employees in China *directly*. For every single Foxconn assemble factory, there will be hundreds of other factories built, either close to Foxconn, or connect by railway, road within 50 miles. Those factories are not owned by Foxconn, they provide parts, services to Foxconn.

Foxconn provided at least 10 millions jobs directly and indirectly, which means 10 millions families can feed themselves.

Why Foxconn choose China? Incentives. Tax, Water, railway, road, electricity, cable, land, law, labor, government policies, government services, efficiencies.

India has a lot more youth, but not skilled labors. Labors are those who can work under great pressure, disciplined, skillful. India lack of good infrastructure.

That's why most industries stay in China, but not India.

While India propaganda machine running in full speed to slander CPEC, but look at India 2021 budget, more infrastructure to be built, more fund.

@Indus Pakistan

Reactions: Like Like:
7 | Love Love:
1


----------



## Chakar The Great

Ghost Hobbit said:


> Says who? India is about to open the biggest industrial zone in the world supported with the biggest frieght corridoor in the world and the whole thing took about 8 years. Surely you're not suggesting CEPC is anywhere close to that project in scale or scope?




India is about to do this and that. You guys are "always going" to do something.


So come back to me when you have done anything. You were suppose to be 5trillion dollar economy ?? Super power by 2020 what happen to all of those ridiculous claims ??


CPEC is not merely an economic project, its strategic. Obviously its stupid to expect that Indians would get it, a country where over 1000sq Km are taken over by Chinese and villages are built in Arunachal Pradesh come here and lecture us.




I know it pains India that Pakistan is developing CPEC, from several terrorist attacks on CPEC projects , killing of Chinese engineers, attack on Gwader airport and so on and so forth. If CPEC is disastrous why the entire Indian RAW funding and machinery is trying to sabotage it.
I will create a separate thread on achievements via CPEC so far.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Haha Haha:
1


----------



## Indos

Indus Pakistan said:


> Take out the natural resources you have, you guys would be dancing with Sub-Saharan Africans. Indonesia produces more oil than UAE, Oman, Bahrain or Qatar.



Well I dont doubt Allah SWT gifts to Indonesia on natural resources we have. AlhamduliLLAH. It is indeed really important for our economic development, not only during the beginning of our serious economic development since Soeharto period (1967-1998), but even Today we try to benefit from our vast nickle reserve to build EV industry.

Despite so I need to correct your false data since UAE, Qatar, and China oil production is larger than Indonesia and USA is also number one oil biggest producing countries in the world for so long and it remain in first position until Today.






In term of gas, Qatar and China position is much higher than Indonesia and even Egypt produce more gas than Indonesia






USA and China also produce more coal than Indonesia where for China their production difference is huge compared to Indonesia






---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indonesia has become net oil importer since 2003 and the reason we still export crude oil is because we dont have enough oil refinery to process our crude oil. Vietnam, your role model country, in the other hand is still net oil exporting country until Today with huge surplus. Surprise ?






List of countries by net oil exports - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Indos

Indus Pakistan said:


> Listen mister the problem with you guys is you know squat all about Pakistan and then you make flawed conclusions. Let me give you a speed intro.
> 
> Countries like Indonesia and Malaysia are East Asian equivalents of Oily Arabs. Your literally drowning in natural resources. Those natural resources are huge which then tie you in the global trading system. from that base you can build up because their is sufficient income/capital available to the governments. Pakistan has almost no resources given it's population size and mostly depends on ex-pat foreign remittances thus seriously limiting state's ability to chart a way out.
> 
> Malay/Indonesia economies got their jump start from -
> 
> 
> oil
> coal
> gold
> gas
> rubber
> palm oil
> 
> View attachment 713467



You get 8 years old data from here isnt it ?













Economy of Indonesia - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





This is the newest development. Alhamdulillah there is progress going on.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jakarta (ANTARA) - Indonesia’s manufacturing industry recorded US$94.36 billion in exports in January-September this year, contributing 80.5 percent to the country’s total exports for the period.

“It means that our industry sector is still aggressively penetrating the international market amid this difficult time as an impact of the COVID-19 pandemic,” head of the Data and Information Center of the Industry Ministry, R Janu Suryanto, said here on Friday.









Indonesia's manufacturing exports top US$94 bln - ANTARA News


Indonesia’s manufacturing industry recorded US$94.36 billion in exports in January-September this year, contributing 80.5 percent to the country’s ...




en.antaranews.com





--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just to correct the data


----------



## Indus Pakistan

Indos said:


> You get 8 years old data from here isnt it ?


The point was Indonesia stood up on back of oil, gas, gold, natural resources. That is fact. Of course once you get the boost from natural resources you begin to invest and diversify the economy. Last time I went to UAE I did not see much oil but I did see tourism, banking, media etc all bulit on oil wealth. Got it Indus or Indos?

Amazing thing even countrries 1,000s of miles awy are naming themselves on our geography ..... !!!

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## Indos

Indus Pakistan said:


> The point was Indonesia stood up on back of oil, gas, gold, natural resources. That is fact. Of course once you get the boost from natural resources you begin to invest and diversify the economy. Last time I went to UAE I did not see much oil but I did see tourism, banking, media etc all bulit on oil wealth. Got it Indus or Indos?



Yup, pretty much true. I dont doubt that.


Indus Pakistan said:


> Amazing thing even countrries 1,000s of miles awy are naming themselves on our geography ..... !!!



he he. We have connection isnt it ? As I have stated before to you maybe two years ago, our indigenous name is Nusantara.

I think South Korea should be your role model in term of how they can become so industrialized despite having a war and has limited natural resources like oil, gas, coal and others.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Indus Pakistan

Death Professor said:


> The main issue, I see is that it would probably need more than 25 B$ to build the western corridor. All the infrastructure is on the eastern side along Indus river having it mostly populated. It wouldn't make sense to invest in Western route from zero, it would take too much time and money. The RoI would come after a long time, when people would "love" to move from their home provinces and live/invest in Baluchistan. Economic zones, infrastructure(electricity, water, land, etc), there is already a base and potential on the eastern side


Great post and thank you for actually grappling with the thust of what I said in the opening post. Your reply deserves a detailed response which I will get to later.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Mugen

Indos said:


> Yup, pretty much true. I dont doubt that.
> 
> 
> he he. We have connection isnt it ? As I have stated before to you maybe two years ago, our indigenous name is Nusantara.
> 
> I think South Korea should be your role model in term of how they can become so industrialized despite having a war and has limited natural resources like oil, gas, coal and others.


South Koreans are intelligent and hard working people, the opposite of Pakistanis.


----------



## Indos

Mugen said:


> South Koreans are intelligent and hard working people, the opposite of Pakistanis.



I believe if we really implement Islam values we can actually surpass many Non-Muslim nations. There is reason why I put this Quran verse in my PDF profile so me and other Muslim can get inspired of. It is Allah promise and I believe if we put our intention as Jihad, there will be huge help coming from our God.

*(8:65) O Prophet! Rouse the believers to fighting. If they be twenty of you who persevere they shall vanquish two hundred; and if there be of you a hundred, they shall vanquish a thousand of those who disbelieve, for they are a people who lack understanding. *

*Modern war is economy and technology right ? Just like how USSR lost cold war due to economy competition with Anti Communist countries*

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## vi-va

Rajputana_ said:


> I've heard kinda similar things, all them chinese women loaded into containers to run away from weak chinese men.
> 
> These chinese poor humans are heartbreaking..
> View attachment 713730


Come on. Average Chinese income is middle class or upper middle class in India. FACTS.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## vi-va

Rajputana_ said:


> Exactly, please compare yourself to asia and africa, not to USA or europe or japan/korea, you got ways to go.
> 
> Come back when you are near equals to western Europe at least.


Who provoke me first with nonsense? which has nothing to do with western Europeans.


Rajputana_ said:


> Is this sarcastic?
> 
> Literally every country listed here has more freedom and more prosperity for its citizens than China...


----------



## Rajputana_

vi-va said:


> Who provoke me first with nonsense? which has nothing to do with western Europeans.



I provoke you with a semblance of truth?

I am honored.


----------



## vi-va

Rajputana_ said:


> I provoke you with a semblance of truth?
> 
> I am honored.


Waste of my time. You are honored in my ignore list.


----------



## tower9

vi-va said:


> Pakistan has man power. Pakistan should leverage man power for labor intensive industry, it will provide more jobs opportunities to ordinary man and women.
> 
> Vietnam population 90 millions, export US$267 billion in 2020.
> Pakistan population 220 millions, export US$ 23 billions in 2019.
> 
> Pakistan should integrate into East/SE Asia supply chain and adopt export driven economy, just like all East/SE Asia countries did.
> 
> For export driven economy, Pakistan need Sea Port, more Sea Port, and upgrade existing Sea Port, upgrade and build more railway, connect major cities, along Hindu River. More power stations and connect them all together by power grid. Literally do what China did in past 3 decades.
> 
> Let me give you guys an example of Foxconn.
> 
> Foxconn employed less than a million employees in China *directly*. For every single Foxconn assemble factory, there will be hundreds of other factories built, either close to Foxconn, or connect by railway, road within 50 miles. Those factories are not owned by Foxconn, they provide parts, services to Foxconn.
> 
> Foxconn provided at least 10 millions jobs directly and indirectly, which means 10 millions families can feed themselves.
> 
> Why Foxconn choose China? Incentives. Tax, Water, railway, road, electricity, cable, land, law, labor, government policies, government services, efficiencies.
> 
> India has a lot more youth, but not skilled labors. Labors are those who can work under great pressure, disciplined, skillful. India lack of good infrastructure.
> 
> That's why most industries stay in China, but not India.
> 
> While India propaganda machine running in full speed to slander CPEC, but look at India 2021 budget, more infrastructure to be built, more fund.
> 
> @Indus Pakistan


It’s in China’s interest to help Pakistan develop into a highly industrialized economy and for gwadar to become the next Dubai. The best allies are the ones that are strong and rich. If CPEC fails then China’s interests will be greatly damaged, that’s why India is determined to hurt CPEC.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kabira

Indus Pakistan said:


> @TaiShang For the umpteenth time the issue I see with CPEC is not debt trap - which is just rubbish peddled by Indians and others who have a issue with China. To my mind the problem is the corridor hsas NOT been built. No even close to it. CPEC was about a China Pakistan Economic CORRIDOR. Whilst many projects have been built here and there titled CPEC but the core of CPEC. The establishing of a port at Gwadar and then a infa link. Roads/rail lining Gwadar along the north-south axis thus opening a new trade route and creating a new economic linkages has not taken place.
> 
> If you look at the map below only Gwadar port, few miles of A-road going north, a 150 mile motorway right at the norh section of the corridor are anywhere near compoletion. The huge distance inbetween of about 600 miles has nothing. Thus leaving Gwadar effectively with no corridor leading to and my description of that port being a beached whale at the present.
> 
> 
> View attachment 713455
> 
> Stop fcukin bringing in partisan politics you idiot. The issue here is far bigger than any government in Pakistan. It has to do with China and how it runs it's geo-politics, how Pakistan fits in that and the nature of Pakistan culture,socio-political order.



The work on western route is in progress, may take 2-3 years. Not sure if this will change anything though. ML-1 probably 5-8 years away.

I dont think one needs 6 lanes motorway in western corridor looking at traffic.

Cities in north should forgot about competing with China/Viet in manufacturing. They cant even compete with Karachi even if ML1, Motorways are completed.

I will advice KP and Punjab gov to invest in IT infrastructure and education instead. Maybe so called CPEC SEZ’s not getting much investment is a sign for things to come.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nahtanbob

TaiShang said:


> Sri Lanka has four port projets.
> 
> They need the port.



The idle port speaks for itself


tower9 said:


> It’s in China’s interest to help Pakistan develop into a highly industrialized economy and for gwadar to become the next Dubai. The best allies are the ones that are strong and rich. If CPEC fails then China’s interests will be greatly damaged, that’s why India is determined to hurt CPEC.



If you truly want to help Pakistan you will be investing in Karachi not Gwadar

Has China ever had a strong and rich ally ?

It is more like North Korea and Myanmar


Unite & Defend said:


> Pakistan will take a lot of India's current business they have with Western companies, wait and see.
> 
> Once Pakistan has all its ducks in order, our competitive advantage will grow exponentially.
> 
> Costs per units manufactured in Pakistan (production, storage and transportation), will see considerable reductions for all focal companies including all their tiered suppliers within Pakistan's supply chains. - making Pakistani good far more competitively priced. It will be difficult for customers not to buy from Pakistan.



India is doing only engineering work. There is little in the way of manufacturing
If you want to compete on manufactured goods you have to worry about China not India


----------



## nahtanbob

Indus Pakistan said:


> I agree with you. The issue with Pakistan is that as a society it is still stuck in the narrative of middle ages and feudal structures. Their solution to the undeveloped condition of the people to find solutions in the very thought that is cause of their backwardness. Pakistan is like before Meiji Japan and the forces that refuse to accept the modern world hold the upper hand. Anybody suggesting moving forward will be called 'gora' [White] or Westoxified liberal beap bleap. Such is the hold of this primitive culture that if this was applied to China you still would be dressed like middle ages China and your women would be walking around in small wooden shoes. Socialism or communism would be branded a European dirty system etc.
> 
> So no doubt the problems are in Pakistan. However the western corridor could be developed in 7 years with about $25 billion outlay. I know that is lot of money but for a country like China it's small change. If China pushed ahead and regarded it as Marshal Plan for a ally the corridor would develop and with two decades be a rip roaring success that would transform Pakistan.
> 
> I give you one example. The eastern corridor with Karachi as the port was laid by British in 1880s when this region was mostly just desert. If the British had carried out a economic audit the laying down of the Eastern corridor [which was a rail line linking north with Karachi] it would have made no sense. But over the succeeding decades that investment became Pakistan's core economic corridor.
> 
> I think China now needs to be more aggressive in it's support of it's allies like USA was to Europe post WW2. It will not only beneit Pakistan but benefit China by having a solid and strong ally with huge trade potential.



There is nothing in CPEC that wll fix Pakistan's cultural issues. China has zero success dealing with foreign cultures. Even America and British have mixed record here.

Putting money in Gwadar and Western corridor is a waste. 90% of Pakistan's populaton live in the Eastern corridor. The Eastern corridor has everything - people, farmlands etc.


Kabira said:


> The work on western route is in progress, may take 2-3 years. Not sure if this will change anything though. ML-1 probably 5-8 years away.
> 
> I dont think one needs 6 lanes motorway in western corridor looking at traffic.
> 
> Cities in north should forgot about competing with China/Viet in manufacturing. They cant even compete with Karachi even if ML1, Motorways are completed.
> 
> I will advice KP and Punjab gov to invest in IT infrastructure and education instead. Maybe so called CPEC SEZ’s not getting much investment is a sign for things to come.



The cost of shipping imports from Karachi to factory in Lahore and sending it back tom Karachi for re-export is too much.

Do not expect the Mandarins on PDF to realize such tiny things


Indus Pakistan said:


> @TaiShang For the umpteenth time the issue I see with CPEC is not debt trap - which is just rubbish peddled by Indians and others who have a issue with China. To my mind the problem is the corridor hsas NOT been built. No even close to it. CPEC was about a China Pakistan Economic CORRIDOR. Whilst many projects have been built here and there titled CPEC but the core of CPEC. The establishing of a port at Gwadar and then a infa link. Roads/rail lining Gwadar along the north-south axis thus opening a new trade route and creating a new economic linkages has not taken place.



most of the CPEC projects are not economical. If it is not a debt trap for Pakistan someone in China is going to taking a haircut on those loans and investments


----------



## Kabira

nahtanbob said:


> The idle port speaks for itself
> 
> 
> If you truly want to help Pakistan you will be investing in Karachi not Gwadar
> 
> Has China ever had a strong and rich ally ?
> 
> It is more like North Korea and Myanmar
> 
> 
> India is doing only engineering work. There is little in the way of manufacturing
> If you want to compete on manufactured goods you have to worry about China not India



If China really wanted to help Pakistan, it would invest in SEZ and increase imports from Pakistan to balance trade. Which is main reason for Pakistan going bankrupt every 3-4 years and begging to IMF. That will result higher GDP growth by default.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## PAKISTANFOREVER

Kabira said:


> If China really wanted to help Pakistan, it would invest in SEZ and increase imports from Pakistan to balance trade. Which is main reason for Pakistan going bankrupt every 3-4 years and begging to IMF. That will result higher GDP growth by default.






Please read the following in full:









CPEC Phase II: Potential of Rashakai Special Economic Zone in Creating Business Opportunities


China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC), a flagship project of Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) launched by Chinese President Xi Jinping in his visit to Pakistan in 2015. In beginning, it was $46 billion project but now its worth has been increased to $62 billion. The project provided Pakistan a...




moderndiplomacy.eu


----------



## Kabira

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Please read the following in full:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CPEC Phase II: Potential of Rashakai Special Economic Zone in Creating Business Opportunities
> 
> 
> China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC), a flagship project of Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) launched by Chinese President Xi Jinping in his visit to Pakistan in 2015. In beginning, it was $46 billion project but now its worth has been increased to $62 billion. The project provided Pakistan a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> moderndiplomacy.eu



I stopped at "potential" part. 5 years and we are still stuck in potential.


----------



## PAKISTANFOREVER

Kabira said:


> I stopped at "potential" part. 5 years and we are still stuck in potential.





Because of the low economic and industrial base that CPEC is starting from, it will take at least 20 years for the impact of CPEC to start showing. Expecting results in the short term is neither feasible nor realistic. The Chinese are famous for having immense patience and planning for the long term. That is what us Pakistanis should be trying to emulate. Also in order for the full potential of CPEC to be realized, Pakistan needs to start heavily investing in the STEM education of Pakistani youth.

Reactions: Like Like:
5 | Love Love:
1


----------



## ghazi52

PAKISTANFOREVER said:


> Because of the low economic and industrial base that CPEC is starting from, it will take at least 20 years for the impact of CPEC to start showing. Expecting results in the short term is neither feasible nor realistic. The Chinese are famous for having immense patience and planning for the long term. That is what us Pakistanis should be trying to emulate. Also in order for the full potential of CPEC to be realized, Pakistan needs to start heavily investing in the STEM education of Pakistani youth.




The best explanation.
Pakistan needs patience.

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Love Love:
2


----------



## Indus Pakistan

nahtanbob said:


> 90% of Pakistan's populaton live in the Eastern corridor.


You should at least do a causual fact check before chucking out numbers. At least 33% of Pakistan's populations falls on the western axis. All of Khbyer Pakhtunkwa Province, Gilgit-Baltistan, westerly portions of Punjab Province [parts of Potohar Plateau including Islamabad Capital territory, Seraiki regions on western flank of Indus] all of Balochistan province. Refer to map below with a north-south axis line.








Historically there was balanced population between western flank and eastern flank of the Indus with slight tilt to the east. However with arrival of the British they invested massively on the eastern flank. Indeed I read the newly merged Punjab and Sind recieved so much investment that the other provinces of India [modern India] complained that were the source of the tax that Raj was spending on this region.

If you and others who complain about CPEC had been around this would have been questioned as most of eastern flank of Indus was desert and Karachi was a tiny fishing village smaller than even Gwadar. However with 1,000 miles of rail lines the connected Peshawar, Rawalpindi, Lahore, Multan, Sukker and finally Karachi created the very eastern corridor that you know tout. In addition vast investments were made in Punjab irrigation colonies which attracted huge number of farming settlements. Most of these populations were brought in from Amritsar-Ludihana region of Indian Punjab - Muslims and Sikhs.

When that rail line that formed the spine of the eastern corridor was laid in 1880s it was a vast undertaking which had almost zero economic driver as it went through what was then sandy desert. The main reason why the Raj did this was geo-strategic and eye to military defence of their empire. They were creating a solid flank against any Russian threat.

Over the next 150 years to the present corridor the British built has developed massively supporting mega cities like Karachi which see the entire trade of the Indus basin being funneled along to it on the corridor laid by the British.

The British entirely ignored the western flank of Indus as they just regarded that as the borderlands and the region saw much warfare thus was more of a conflict zone then a trade zone but I believe 2020 and with independant Pakistan it is time to begin to develop the western corridor. True right now the route will lead through sand, rock and mountains but once built it will begin the process of development and make Gwadar a sustainable, alternatative trade hub/port to Karachi breaking the monopoly provided to that city 150 years ago by the British.

We need to repeat what the British did in 1870 when they laid the* eastern coridor*.It was vast undertaking and in today's terms costing far more than CPEC.






Indus Valley State Railway - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





_The *Indus Valley State Railway* (reporting mark *IVSR*) was a railway founded in 1871 to provide a rail link between Kotri and Multan and to replace the Indus Steam Flotilla.[1][2] The opening of the line thus connected Karachi with Lahore. _

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## ghazi52

Indus Pakistan said:


> You should at least do a causual fact check before chucking out numbers. At least 33% of Pakistan's populations falls on the western axis. All of Khbyer Pakhtunkwa Province, Gilgit-Baltistan, westerly portions of Punjab Province [parts of Potohar Plateau including Islamabad Capital territory, Seraiki regions on western flank of Indus] all of Balochistan province. Refer to map below with a north-south axis line.
> 
> View attachment 714071
> 
> 
> 
> Historically there was balanced population between western flank and eastern flank of the Indus with slight tilt to the east. However with arrival of the British they invested massively on the eastern flank. Indeed I read the newly merged Punjab and Sind recieved so much investment that the other provinces of India [modern India] complained that were the source of the tax that Raj was spending on this region.
> 
> If you and others who complain about CPEC had been around this would have been questioned as most of eastern flank of Indus was desert and Karachi was a tiny fishing village smaller than even Gwadar. However with 1,000 miles of rail lines the connected Peshawar, Rawalpindi, Lahore, Multan, Sukker and finally Karachi created the very eastern corridor that you know tout. In addition vast investments were made in Punjab irrigation colonies which attracted huge number of farming settlements. Most of these populations were brought in from Amritsar-Ludihana region of Indian Punjab - Muslims and Sikhs.
> 
> When that rail line that formed the spine of the eastern corridor was laid in 1880s it was a vast undertaking which had almost zero economic driver as it went through what was then sandy desert. The main reason why the Raj did this was geo-strategic and eye to military defence of their empire. They were creating a solid flank against any Russian threat.
> 
> Over the next 150 years to the present corridor the British built has developed massively supporting mega cities like Karachi which see the entire trade of the Indus basin being funneled along to it on the corridor laid by the British.
> 
> The British entirely ignored the western flank of Indus as they just regarded that as the borderlands and the region saw much warfare thus was more of a conflict zone then a trade zone but I believe 2020 and with independant Pakistan it is time to begin to develop the western corridor. True right now the route will lead through sand, rock and mountains but once built it will begin the process of development and make Gwadar a sustainable, alternatative trade hub/port to Karachi breaking the monopoly provided to that city 150 years ago by the British.
> 
> We need to repeat what the British did in 1870 when they laid the* eastern coridor*.It was vast undertaking and in today's terms costing far more than CPEC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indus Valley State Railway - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The *Indus Valley State Railway* (reporting mark *IVSR*) was a railway founded in 1871 to provide a rail link between Kotri and Multan and to replace the Indus Steam Flotilla.[1][2] The opening of the line thus connected Karachi with Lahore. _
> 
> View attachment 714082




Completely true.


----------



## Indus Pakistan

Some good news guys. There does appear to be solid movement on the Western Corridor. As @PAKISTANFOREVER and @ghazi52 pointed out we have to give some more time for this to pan out. But the potential of the Western Corridor is enormous. Once built it will begin the supercharged development of Gwadar. I hope to one day not too far in the future to drive from Islamabad to Gwadar along A class roads. This may not be as distant as I thought. Minister Murad has really put his back into the Wetern Corridor. A quick summary of where we stand at the present -


M-14 motorway from near Islamabad to Dera Ismail Khan is nearly completed and due to open in June 2021.
Dera Ismail Khan to Zhob section will see work commence on dualizing it
tenders about to be given for Zhob to Kuchlak/Quetta
Planning on Gwadar to Quetta soon to be completed.
So it would look like about 5 years for CPEC Western Corridor to become a reality. That should began the consolidation and development of the vast regions of Pakistan on the Western flank of Indus. And make Gwadar a viable port connected to the entire Pakistan hinterlands including Afghanistan, Central Asia and Sinkiang China.

WESTERN CORRIDOR
RED M-14 About completed
BLUE Zhob Construct about to start
Broken Blue Planning completed [ smaller sections have already been built near Gwadar]








M-14 Motorway - Note the major bridge over Indus River near Mianwali is still not finished.






Zhob road being built. It will require major tunnels as it crosses into the Sulaiman Mountain range.













Listen to Communications Minister Murad under whose remit this falls. He also mentions additional motorway from Peshawar south to Dera Ismail Khan providing even more boost to the Western Corridor by complementing M-14.

Reactions: Like Like:
6


----------



## PAKISTANFOREVER

Indus Pakistan said:


> Some good news guys. There does appear to be solid movement on the Western Corridor. As @PAKISTANFOREVER and @ghazi52 pointed out we have to give some more time for this to pan out. But the potential of the Western Corridor is enormous. Once built it will begin the supercharged development of Gwadar. I hope to one day not too far in the future to drive from Islamabad to Gwadar along A class roads. This may not be as distant as I thought. Minister Murad has really put his back into the Wetern Corridor. A quick summary of where we stand at the present -
> 
> 
> M-14 motorway from near Islamabad to Dera Ismail Khan is nearly completed and due to open in June 2021.
> Dera Ismail Khan to Zhob section will see work commence on dualizing it
> tenders about to be given for Zhob to Kuchlak/Quetta
> Planning on Gwadar to Quetta soon to be completed.
> So it would look like about 5 years for CPEC Western Corridor to become a reality. That should began the consolidation and development of the vast regions of Pakistan on the Western flank of Indus. And make Gwadar a viable port connected to the entire Pakistan hinterlands including Afghanistan, Central Asia and Sinkiang China.
> 
> WESTERN CORRIDOR
> RED M-14 About completed
> BLUE Zhob Construct about to start
> Broken Blue Planning completed [ smaller sections have already been built near Gwadar]
> 
> View attachment 714095
> 
> 
> 
> M-14 Motorway - Note the major bridge over Indus River near Mianwali is still not finished.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zhob road being built. It will require major tunnels as it crosses into the Sulaiman Mountain range.
> 
> 
> View attachment 714096
> 
> 
> View attachment 714097
> 
> 
> 
> Listen to Communications Minister Murad under whose remit this falls. He also mentions additional motorway from Peshawar south to Dera Ismail Khan providing even more boost to the Western Corridor by complementing M-14.






Also in order for CPEC to fully materialize and to somewhat industrialize Pakistan, we need to lay the groundwork for all of this to be achieved and that will take some 10 years at least. That is why the energy and damn projects of CPEC are so immensely important.

Reactions: Like Like:
5


----------



## ghazi52

*“At all costs”: How Pakistan and China control the narrative on the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor*

Madiha Afzal



*EXECUTIVE SUMMARY*

The China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC), China’s 15-year, $62 billion investment in Pakistan and the flagship project of its Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), took the five-decade long strategic alliance between the two countries to the economic sphere in 2015. CPEC is best seen as the economic peg in the wider strategic relationship between Pakistan and China.

While the plan’s details — the terms of the investments and loans, the full extent of the projects, and the overall cost to Pakistan — remain opaque, the Chinese and Pakistani governments have together zealously aimed to control and drive the narrative on CPEC, aggressively stamping out criticism.

Zhao Lijian, formerly China’s deputy chief of mission (DCM) in Islamabad, was a central character in China’s control of information on CPEC, hitting back against critics on social media from his perch at the Chinese Embassy. His success in that sphere saw him promoted to Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman, and he is now a key player in China’s “wolf-warrior diplomacy” on the coronavirus pandemic.

In Pakistan, Prime Minister Imran Khan’s government sought a reset of CPEC, which was seen as closely aligned with the previous government, when it came into office in 2018. It saw swift pushback from China and from Pakistan’s military, with the chief of army staff issuing a telling statement from a visit to Beijing: “BRI with CPEC as its flagship is destined to succeed despite all odds and Pak Army shall ensure security of CPEC at all costs.”

The U.S. Department of State has spoken out in recent months against what it sees as China’s predatory lending to Pakistan. It argues that the plan’s terms benefit Chinese companies and workers, and are unsustainable for Pakistan, leading to its rising debt burden. China and Pakistan have both pushed back concertedly on the criticism. The strength of Pakistan’s pushback is notable in the context of Pakistan’s improving relations with the U.S. since 2018 through the Afghan peace process, and its reliance on the International Monetary Fund.

In the end, the tight control of the narrative on CPEC by both China and Pakistan and a lack of transparency on its terms prevents proper accountability of the venture. It would benefit Pakistan to allow some transparency on CPEC that might pressure both parties to move to terms that are equally beneficial to Pakistan.


*Madiha Afzal
David M. Rubenstein Fellow - Foreign Policy, Center for Middle East Policy, Center for Security, Strategy, and Technology*












“At all costs”: How Pakistan and China control the narrative on the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor


The tight control of the narrative on the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) by both China and Pakistan and a lack of transparency on its terms prevents proper accountability of the venture.




www.brookings.edu


----------



## nahtanbob

Indus Pakistan said:


> You should at least do a causual fact check before chucking out numbers. At least 33% of Pakistan's populations falls on the western axis. All of Khbyer Pakhtunkwa Province, Gilgit-Baltistan, westerly portions of Punjab Province [parts of Potohar Plateau including Islamabad Capital territory, Seraiki regions on western flank of Indus] all of Balochistan province. Refer to map below with a north-south axis line.



Eastern axis = Punjab + Sind
Western axis = NWFP (whatever it is called these days) + Baluchistan

The Eastern axis has Indus river waters. The Western axis has nothing comparable to the Indus river waters


----------



## nahtanbob

Indus Pakistan said:


> Some good news guys. There does appear to be solid movement on the Western Corridor. As @PAKISTANFOREVER and @ghazi52 pointed out we have to give some more time for this to pan out. But the potential of the Western Corridor is enormous. Once built it will begin the supercharged development of Gwadar. I hope to one day not too far in the future to drive from Islamabad to Gwadar along A class roads. This may not be as distant as I thought. Minister Murad has really put his back into the Wetern Corridor. A quick summary of where we stand at the present -
> 
> 
> M-14 motorway from near Islamabad to Dera Ismail Khan is nearly completed and due to open in June 2021.
> Dera Ismail Khan to Zhob section will see work commence on dualizing it
> tenders about to be given for Zhob to Kuchlak/Quetta
> Planning on Gwadar to Quetta soon to be completed.
> So it would look like about 5 years for CPEC Western Corridor to become a reality. That should began the consolidation and development of the vast regions of Pakistan on the Western flank of Indus. And make Gwadar a viable port connected to the entire Pakistan hinterlands including Afghanistan, Central Asia and Sinkiang China.
> 
> WESTERN CORRIDOR
> RED M-14 About completed
> BLUE Zhob Construct about to start
> Broken Blue Planning completed [ smaller sections have already been built near Gwadar]
> 
> View attachment 714095
> 
> 
> 
> M-14 Motorway - Note the major bridge over Indus River near Mianwali is still not finished.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zhob road being built. It will require major tunnels as it crosses into the Sulaiman Mountain range.
> 
> 
> View attachment 714096
> 
> 
> View attachment 714097
> 
> 
> 
> Listen to Communications Minister Murad under whose remit this falls. He also mentions additional motorway from Peshawar south to Dera Ismail Khan providing even more boost to the Western Corridor by complementing M-14.



the photos of the roads in the mountains looks like a road to nowhere


----------



## ACE OF HEARTS

Gwadar needs to be connected to Quetta upto PESHAWAR through a Rail link.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Indus Pakistan

nahtanbob said:


> The Eastern axis has Indus river waters. The Western axis has nothing comparable to the Indus river waters


So I wonder what Khyber Pakhtunkwa Province [40 million] Gilgit Baltistan, western edge of Potohar Punjab, westerlky Seraiki Punjab, Balochistan drink? 

Vodka?


ACE OF HEARTS said:


> Gwadar needs to be connected to Quetta upto PESHAWAR through a Rail link.


That is my exact point. Once [look below] is complete it will be a 'game changer' and create it's own dynamic.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Love Love:
2


----------



## Indos

Kabira said:


> The work on western route is in progress, may take 2-3 years. Not sure if this will change anything though. ML-1 probably 5-8 years away.
> 
> I dont think one needs 6 lanes motorway in western corridor looking at traffic.
> 
> Cities in north should forgot about competing with China/Viet in manufacturing. They cant even compete with Karachi even if ML1, Motorways are completed.
> 
> I will advice KP and Punjab gov to invest in IT infrastructure and education instead. Maybe so called CPEC SEZ’s not getting much investment is a sign for things to come.



Yup, you can see the comparison between Java island and Sumatra island to better understand the situation. The fact is businesses prefer to set up factory in Java where there are more people and more purchasing power than Sumatra, it is despite Sumatra infrastructure is not really bad and located next to Malacca Strait.

Industrial zone in Java get more utilization than in non Java. The tendency doesnt suggest that Indonesia should focus on Java forever, but to make the industrialization get more speed so we can safe much time, it is better to centralize the industrialization in the Java first, while keep opening more industrial zone in non Java islands step by step. This is why when we get huge gas field in Sumatra, the gas is then funeled into West Java, Indonesia manufacturing center.

Investment realization 2018 based on location. Jawa (Java) get the biggest despite it is a small island compared to others, but it is where the most people live and has higher GDP.


----------



## Verve

Indus Pakistan said:


> View attachment 714158



Western route is primarily for China, the real transport corridor. Low density and vastly scattered population. It is strategically important for China as mighty Indus is a natural defence barrier that will play a vital role when the inevitable war between Pakistan and India breaks. Reason for USA not leaving Afghanistan and focus of RAW/ISIS/BW on our Western half.

Eastern route is primarily for Pakistan with majority of the SEZs and local development. Chinese industry relocation here. High population density to fulfil staffing needs of new industries. You may not be aware but the big SEZs like Allama Iqbal SEZ in Faisalabad are fully sold out in last year and construction has really stepped up.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Kabira

Verve said:


> Western route is primarily for China, the real transport corridor. Low density and vastly scattered population. It is strategically important for China as mighty Indus is a natural defence barrier that will play a vital role when the inevitable war between Pakistan and India breaks. Reason for USA not leaving Afghanistan and focus of RAW/ISIS/BW on our Western half.
> 
> Eastern route is primarily for Pakistan with majority of the SEZs and local development. Chinese industry relocation here. High population density to fulfil staffing needs of new industries. You may not be aware but the big SEZs like Allama Iqbal SEZ in Faisalabad are fully sold out in last year and construction has really stepped up.



Here is how Gwadar will make a difference to Pakistan GDP like Karachi does. Lets transplant millions people to Gwadar and see overnight change. Motorways, ML-1 are not going to make much difference to manufacturing in north when its port cities all over the world that lead and Pakistan only have 1. Current infrastructure is good enough from north to south. 

Its not going to happen because first Pakistan will have to become a proper nation. Recently project to fence Gwadar for security was put on hold because nationalists in parliament cried.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## nahtanbob

Indus Pakistan said:


> So I wonder what Khyber Pakhtunkwa Province [40 million] Gilgit Baltistan, western edge of Potohar Punjab, westerlky Seraiki Punjab, Balochistan drink?



KPK and Balochistan have 50 million people. The rest of Pakistan lives off the Indus river water system. That is at least 75% of the population

If CPEC was a meaningful economic project the focus will be on Karachi not Gwadar. Karachi serves the hinterland or heartland.


----------



## Indus Pakistan

nahtanbob said:


> KPK and Balochistan have 50 million people. The rest of Pakistan lives off the Indus river water system. That is at least 75% of the population


Well we see progress. You moved from, what was it 95% to 75% mashallah.



nahtanbob said:


> If CPEC was a meaningful economic project the focus will be on Karachi not Gwadar. Karachi serves the hinterland or heartland.


So you think US should have focused on one or two ports for it's entire trade? 220 million people country but just one port? Ff sakes even 50 million is average sized European country like France. That alone warrants Gwadar. And if you look at the map trade from upper Punjab could easily slightly tilt westwards as it moves south to arrive at Gwadar.

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Haha Haha:
1


----------



## nahtanbob

Indus Pakistan said:


> Well we see progress. You moved from, what was it 95% to 75% mashallah.
> 
> So you think US should have focused on one or two ports for it's entire trade? 220 million people country but just one port? Ff sakes even 50 million is average sized European country like France. That alone warrants Gwadar. And if you look at the map trade from upper Punjab could easily slightly tilt westwards as it moves south to arrive at Gwadar.



The number of ports is determined by the geography and economics. If the people of Balochistan and KPK live in feudal backward system maybe one port is too many.

you keep dodging the main points - for CPEC to have a meaningful impact it has to involve the areas where people live currently

How many ports does the West Coast of USA have ? Break it down by traffic


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

PanzerKiel said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1355941074867421185


Pakistanis always say it will be South Asia's biggest airport but when you land there. The place looks like a dump.

I believe something was off about CPEC. It was started by PMLN and I don't they would have negotiated for the interests of the state of Pakistan. Rather they probably would have negotiated for the interest of their own pockets. 

Rich powerful countries like China and corporations from such countries love doing business with corrupt people in 3rd world countries like Pakistan. Where it's easy to buy off the civil administration and others.

Even if CPEC is legit. Which I hope it is. It will still fall upon Pakistani people to leverage it for their own success. Just like the dam thread that was on here recently.

Does Pakistani qom have enough national ghairat like Turks whose dizileri they love watching?? 

I say yes and no. There are still enough honest, talented and hardworking people in Pakistan if given proper leadership and disciplined properly can do wonders. The problem are paindoo types, who want to do nothing but look busy.


nahtanbob said:


> The number of ports is determined by the geography and economics. If the people of Balochistan and KPK live in feudal backward system maybe one port is too many.
> 
> you keep dodging the main points - for CPEC to have a meaningful impact it has to involve the areas where people live currently
> 
> How many ports does the West Coast of USA have ? Break it down by traffic


In Chicago federal government built water projects and basic wharfs when population was below 10,000 threshold. Only a decade later the population reached 100,000 and trade and new industries and shipping traffic went through the roof. 

13,000 ships and tugs passed through the lake michigan and Chicago River system onwards to the Mississippi river.

For how long wil lyou poor oppressed Israelis bemoan your poor ignored/oppressed little city? 

I wonder if Karachiwalas will still be this pompous when 15 years later Gawadar surpasses you in affluence??

Reactions: Sad Sad:
1


----------



## Indus Pakistan

nahtanbob said:


> you keep dodging the main points - for CPEC to have a meaningful impact it has to involve the areas where people live currently


Okay. A map will explain it for you. Red is for primary area and green for secondary area. Call this port hinterland. As you can see all of Balochistan, all of K-Pk, North Western Punjab including Islamabad capitol territory can easily fall into the Western Corridor. This is about 75 million people. Add into this Afghan transit trade and some, although very limited traffic from Chinese Sinkiang.

This is to get the ball rolling. In two decades potentially Central Asia could also be a market. And please note at least 75 million people live within the area I have marked on the map.


North Western Punjab
Khyber Pakhtunkwa
Gilgit Baltistan
Balochistan
+ Afghan transit trade
If this flies over your head then your just being difficult. In which case even if the darned thing thumped your head you still would deny it.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Indus Pakistan

North Western Punjab is being tied into the Western Corridor by the M-14 motorway which is about to be completed this summer. This begins near Islamabad and heads south west joining the Western Corridor in Khyber Pakhtunkwa at Yarik-Dera Ismail Khan.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Indus Pakistan said:


> North Western Punjab is being tied into the Western Corridor by the M-14 motorway which is about to be completed this summer. This begins near Islamabad and heads south west joining the Western Corridor in Khyber Pakhtunkwa at Yarik-Dera Ismail Khan.
> 
> View attachment 714480
> 
> 
> View attachment 714481


They're reinforcing the Mianwali/DI Khan/Khoshab/Talagang route then which only used to be country dirt mountain roads. Nice. Nato trucks also used this route.


----------



## The Accountant

Indus Pakistan said:


> Okay it's been some five years since the launch of CPEC so we can have audit of progress and see if it has lived upto it's expectations. My view is it has delivered some progress but* failed *to bring substantive change to Pakistan as I would have liked to seen.
> 
> Frankly I am disappointed. What could have been has been missed. CPEC offered the possibility to entirely rework the economy of Pakistan. Bring about a revolution in the way the country traded and opened new vistas. Most importantly it offered the possibility of the corrupt, rentier parasite economic linkages that have taken root in Pakistan and are choking competition. What is wrong with Pakistan's economy? everything as it stands. When a economy of 200 million people can only generate $20 billion exports and the country is forced to live on the ex-pat worker remittances of $22 billion it tells us about what type of industry and trading class we have in Pakistan. They are just rent seekers who do not add value but just export basic products. A good example is Pink Salt which as we know is mined and exported raw to India for it to be processed and sold as brand India with 10 times value addition.
> 
> The present rent seeking, mafia economy is established along the eastern corridor which runs from Peshawar-Lahore-Multan-Sukker-Karachi. Decades of investment dating even from the British era rail system has laid infrastructure along this corridor. Rail and roads all go along this corridor discharging into the only port Karachi. The entire economic and trading system of 200 million people is hinged on Karachi as it is the port there thatr interfaces with the global economy. You want to import a truck from Japan, a car from Germany, a industrial lathe from France, Swiss clock for any of the 200 million purchasers in Pakistan those products will land at Karachi port and then move along the transport infra of the eastern corridor.
> 
> On the other hand whether your a salt miner in Khewra, a Lap;is Lazuli exporter in Peshawar, a sports manufacturer in Sialkot, a tile maker in Multan your goods will travel along that transport infra of the eastern corridor to be exported at Karachi port.
> 
> So the entire trading order is lynched on Karachi pivoted on Karachi and geared towards minimum value addition and reliant on subsidies or monopolies. Competition is seen as sin. This is why despite everything Pakistani industry will continue to be feeble and fail to take off like Bangladesh has. The rent seekers will just make excuses come PTI, PPP, PML.
> 
> The infographic below sums up the lay of the eastern corridor. Karachi is vital and is the final point where a national level "bhatta tax" is inflicted by various vested interests in that city which tend to be either PPP or MQM controlled. The entire 1,000 mile corridor will be get stuck here unless some money is not exchanged.
> 
> View attachment 713009
> 
> 
> 
> CPEC however offered a tantalising possibility of breaking this entrenched rent seeking economic order thart has taken root over the decades with chockehold at Karach port that has the entire country hostage. As explained above the economic activity of 200 million people rests at the only port to the outside world.
> 
> How so? Gwadar. It offered the possibility of a new port. A possibility of a alternative that would break the chokehold of Karachi. It would offer a chance for a new economic corridor to open up. With it it would bring competition and finally some fresh vigour to the Pakistan economy. This would force change in the eastern corridor as monopoly would be broken with rise of Western economic corridor. Please refer to infographic below.
> 
> View attachment 713010
> 
> 
> 
> For this to work though it is not enough to build a Port at Gwadar. It also needs the Western corridor built that would mean motorways and railways running north to Quetta-DG-Khan-Islamabad-Peshawar with one spur going to Multan-Lahore. The Chinese role was crucial as it would require at least $25 billion to build up the required infra to link Gwadar with 200 million people of Pakistan along the Western Corridor.
> 
> Sadly and tragically this has not happened. Gwadar Port has been built up but the Western Corridor only exists on paper. Some roads are being built but these will never rival the rail and motorway infra of the Eastern Corridor. So all trade will by definition continue rolling along the established eastern corridor, The present monopolies will continue to function as they are.
> 
> Frankly Gwadar Port is like a *beached Whale* that is not going anywhere. Let us just think from the POV of a exporter in Sialkot. Do you think you will send your products by truck or rail to Karachi and then have them trucked another 200 miles along the Makran Highway to Gwadar? You would be pretty dumb to do that. As you could easily use Port Qasim or Port Karachi. Why would you add another 200 miles of road and all the costs and time that would imply. For sake of using Gwadar? That is ridicalous.
> 
> The other possibilty is use the Quetta-Gwadar route or the alignment of the Western Corridior. The problem is the roads are terrible and law/order is not ideal. Why not just use the excellant M2-M3-M4-M5 motorways to Karach Port? So I am afraid as long as the Western Corridor does not recieve at least $25 billion to build proper motorway followed by proper security Gwadar will remain a beached whale and a white elephant with some ships forced to land there just for photo-ops.
> 
> Why the Chinese have not continued with CPEC with the gusto they showed at the outset is another subject we need to look at. But as thing stand CPEC has failed to bring transformation to Pakistan's economy. It has however brought some short term benefits. But sadly not the revolution we all hoped it would bring in.
> 
> *CPEC has stalled.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In short why would you do this and add almost 200 miles transport costs so you can shout "GWADAR"?
> 
> View attachment 713014


My friend i am unable to get the jist of the article. What do u think CPEC is all about ? Is it about getting a route alternate to Karachi ? What difference will it make ? The port or transportation charges paid on import or export through karachi are not payable in Gawadar ?

What is real objective of CPEC?

The real objective of CPEC was to connect chinese and Pakistani economy on the lines EU. With the increase in per capita income of china they r become cosyly for low paid jobs such as assembly, packing and basic manufacturing which involves human force i.e. labor intensive.

So idea was to transfer those jobs to Pakistan.

CPEC2.0 was all about this launch in late 2019 but got slowed due to covid19.

Once covid 19 restrictions r minimised we will see a surge in these activities as well.

Wirh respect to gawadar, its just a port which is an alternative to already over crowded karachi. Otherwise it is not going to give any other significant advantage over karachi.

Mqm is long gone. Ppp has no power to effect trading activities.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## Yankee-stani

Never understood why the Western Corridor wasn't the first projects done the East should have been at least 2nd priority what type of de centralized planning mess is this then again it's still wait and see


----------



## Indus Pakistan

The Accountant said:


> My friend i am unable to get the jist of the article. What do u think CPEC is all about ? Is it about getting a route alternate to Karachi ? What difference will it make ? The port or transportation charges paid on import or export through karachi are not payable in Gawadar ?
> 
> What is real objective of CPEC?
> 
> The real objective of CPEC was to connect chinese and Pakistani economy on the lines EU. With the increase in per capita income of china they r become cosyly for low paid jobs such as assembly, packing and basic manufacturing which involves human force i.e. labor intensive.
> 
> So idea was to transfer those jobs to Pakistan.
> 
> CPEC2.0 was all about this launch in late 2019 but got slowed due to covid19.
> 
> Once covid 19 restrictions r minimised we will see a surge in these activities as well.
> 
> Wirh respect to gawadar, its just a port which is an alternative to already over crowded karachi. Otherwise it is not going to give any other significant advantage over karachi.
> 
> Mqm is long gone. Ppp has no power to effect trading activities.


CPEC is about many things.


Provide the Western half of the country as defined by the north-south axis a port in addition offer Afghanistan, Central Asia the most effective way to sealanes
In addition introduce alternative port to Karachi thus bringing competition which is good for all
Allowing another economic corridor to develop the neglected western flank of the country
improve basic communication thus reduce cost of business
attract Chinese investors thus shake up the business regime in Pakistan
bring about social and political change so the country is better fit with global trading order.
This is a quick take from my reading.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Love Love:
1


----------



## jupiter2007

Cliftonite said:


> He's not a Karachiite firstly.
> 
> Let Gwadar bypass Karachi. We'll happily take it. Just give back us Karachiites control of our city from Sindhi feudal lords from Larkana and Dadu.
> 
> Even a post about CPEC has to somehow draw in Karachi some way or the other @PaklovesTurkiye @mikkix @jupiter2007
> 
> We live in their minds rent free.



Just the businesses in Lalukhet (commercial area and supper market) pay more taxes than entire city of Lahore. lalukhet, tiny small dot in the middle of the Karachi.







Can you imagine if we count the all the business in Karachi, Karachi tax collection will be more than whole Pakistan. But establishment doesn't care about Karachi. They care more about keeping balance of power between MQM-P and PPP.


----------



## Enigma SIG

Thread about CPEC devolved into ethno-fascist slurs.
Good job Pakistanis!
Someone please clean up the thread @waz

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Haha Haha:
1


----------



## Chakar The Great



Reactions: Love Love:
1


----------



## Indus Pakistan

More good news on the Western Corridor. Peshawar to DI Khan motorway approved. So this will be second motorway [M-14] to funnel traffic on the Western Corridor.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Love Love:
1


----------



## Kabira

jupiter2007 said:


> Just the businesses in Lalukhet (commercial area and supper market) pay more taxes than entire city of Lahore. lalukhet, tiny small dot in the middle of the Karachi.
> View attachment 714536
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you imagine if we count the all the business in Karachi, Karachi tax collection will be more than whole Pakistan. But establishment doesn't care about Karachi. They care more about keeping balance of power between MQM-P and PPP.





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1359749480611016704


----------



## ziaulislam

Muhammad Omar said:


> ML1 not started yet
> Gwadar power plant still no sign of it
> Gwadar Port extension nothing happening
> Sukuur Hyderabad Motorway no work
> Dhabeji Rashakai Gwadar Economic Zone nothing much on it
> Havelian Dry port no work
> 660 MW Thar Coal Power plant work at snail pace
> 330 MW Thal Nova Thar Coal project not started
> 1320 MW SSRL Thar Coal project not started
> 600 MW Quaid-e-Azam Solar power Project still pending
> Gwadar Eastbay delayed still under construction
> Gwadar Airport working at snail pace
> Gwadar hospital no sign of it
> Gwadar free zone no work being done
> Karachi Circular Railway LOL
> Quetta Mass Transit nothing on ground
> Peshawar Greater Circular Train Nothing on it
> It park worth $1.2 billion in Islamabad nothing on it
> Mohmand Marble City no work being done
> AJK economic zone nothing being done
> 
> 
> If someone says CPEC is still underway and is under construction he should shut up this Government is just not doing anything on CPEC these projects are the short and Medium term projects these doesn't include any long term projects
> 
> Yeah some Hydropower projects like Suki Kinari and Karot are under Construction while Kohala Azad Pattan are still pending


Problem is cost..
Chinese are taking a very high rate of return
Making power so expensive that manufacturing cant compete

Also sukkur motorway was remodeled for same reason debt..

Surprisngly on BOT bases the cost will be lower(in $$) and built by a local company rather then chinese(a compulsory thing under chinese financing)

We werent selective ans careful with it..hence the problem


Gawadar will only grow if connections are completed and manufacturing is introduced via cheap land and cheap power

So far gawadar HAS NO ELECTRICITY and NO connections


Govt needs to build 2 more ports in between gawadar and karachi and provide good acess power and free land for manufacturing 

Juat building an outpost with nothing isnt going to work

China built multiple new cities on coasts


----------



## jupiter2007

Pakistan must invite other countries to invest in Pakistan and loan interest must low. If Chinese continue to invest in Pakistan, they will eventually own 50% of Pakistan.


----------



## Verve

@Indus Pakistan - another entry route just recently announced by new GB (PTI) govt ... there will be more, likely through Wakhan Corridor when Afghanistan is settled.

This new route will be flatter hence bigger road and far less dangerous than KKH.

CPEC hasn't slowed down, it has geared up!








Will a new China-Pakistan road lead to a military boost against India?


Analysts say the transit and trade route linking Xinjiang and Kashmir will increase Beijing and Islamabad’s military interoperability against Indian forces in the region, ringing alarm bells in New Delhi.




www.scmp.com

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Love Love:
1


----------



## imranyounus

ziaulislam said:


> Gawadar will only grow if connections are completed and manufacturing is introduced via cheap land and cheap power
> 
> So far gawadar HAS NO ELECTRICITY and NO connections
> 
> 
> Govt needs to build 2 more ports in between gawadar and karachi and provide good acess power and free land for manufacturing


Definitely agreed we need to develop whole coastal areas. it's not too much. Pakistan navy already has base in Ormara and a city with decent port can be deployed similarly passni is also a good location. these three ports along with two in Karachi and additional on in kati bandar can be linked with a larger coastal highway. 

as far as links I will again reiterated that what we need was a simple central link. Which was most practical approach. it could have been build faster and is more secure. once this road is build and economic activities start you will get resources to build more roads. and that will be need as traffic grows and more countries join in. 

Currently our situation is such that we have started building a mega mall spending our resources without ensuring that we will be left with any resources to fill it with groceries.


----------



## Turingsage

Gwadar is just a navel observation and possibly R&R for the Chinese navy. Already the Chinese are fenced into their little bit of China with golf courses and hotels while the natives do not even have clean water to drink. Nothing more. All the grandiose fantasies about an Oil pipeline to China or a new Dubai is for the cuckoos


----------



## Indus Pakistan

Verve said:


> @Indus Pakistan - another entry route just recently announced by new GB (PTI) govt ... there will be more, likely through Wakhan Corridor when Afghanistan is settled.
> 
> This new route will be flatter hence bigger road and far less dangerous than KKH.
> 
> CPEC hasn't slowed down, it has geared up!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will a new China-Pakistan road lead to a military boost against India?
> 
> 
> Analysts say the transit and trade route linking Xinjiang and Kashmir will increase Beijing and Islamabad’s military interoperability against Indian forces in the region, ringing alarm bells in New Delhi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.scmp.com


Yes. Thanks for that. I have been looking at the Western Corridor and it appears that it has pickep up pace. In another 5 years Gwadar should have great up country connectivity.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Indus Pakistan

Turingsage said:


> Gwadar is just a navel observation


It will take time. As we speak motorways are slowly coursing down south from Peshawar/Islamabad toward Gwadar on the west bank of Indus River. Below is the video of M-14 motorway being built on the Western Corridor of Khyber Pakhtunkwa. Every mile south gets closer to Gwadar. When completed this will inject life into Gwadar.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## ziaulislam

Turingsage said:


> Gwadar is just a navel observation and possibly R&R for the Chinese navy. Already the Chinese are fenced into their little bit of China with golf courses and hotels while the natives do not even have clean water to drink. Nothing more. All the grandiose fantasies about an Oil pipeline to China or a new Dubai is for the cuckoos


you have been to gawadar??

native have more then enough water due to two new dams, there are no chinese and life is imporved 20X after building of road

the only problem India financed bombing of schools and children in meena bazaar

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## PAKISTANFOREVER

Turingsage said:


> Gwadar is just a navel observation and possibly R&R for the Chinese navy. Already the Chinese are fenced into their little bit of China with golf courses and hotels while the natives do not even have clean water to drink. Nothing more. All the grandiose fantasies about an Oil pipeline to China or a new Dubai is for the cuckoos






Gangus wouldn't say anything else. You do know there is 0 GENUINE and CREDIBLE evidence for what you have just written above............

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------

