# History Of The Freemasons



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Is there a Proven History?

Empirical evidence supporting the history of Freemasonry prior to the 18th Century is hard to find. Theories vary wildly from the plausible to the sensational. Most masons believe that Freemasonry is derived from the early medieval stonemasons guilds and enquire no further. However, a well rounded study in Freemasonry should look more deeply at all possible roots, even if only to be able to dismiss most of them.



There is no commonly accepted Ancient History of Freemasonry &#8211; even UGLE does not publish a house view prior to its own initial conception in 1717. This is curious because a resemblance of modern Freemasonry (judging from a corpus of medieval manuscripts) was already in place beforehand, even if its pedigree was lost.



The Conventional Explanation

Most historians concur that Freemasonry, in its current form, probably developed as an adjunct from medieval stonemasons through the ages leading up to the Operative Stone Masons Guilds. Just how or when the transition took place from Operative Guild Free-Stone Masonry to Speculative intellectual Freemasonry (using stonemasons tools, clothing and customs as allegorical aids to teach their precepts) is not clear, although Scottish Lodge Kilwinnings records showing non Operatives being admitted by at least 1672 and some Lodges in England were entirely non Operative by the time of Elias Ashmole in 1646.



What was so special about stonemasons? They possessed great skill to create the castles, cathedrals and palaces and the necessary sculpted works and ornaments demanded of their masters. Such skill must have seemed almost magical to the vast illiterate masses. They were clearly the elite of the labour force, had secret customs and marks (as shown opposite) and would have attracted some of the brightest non-educated recruits. However, given the complexity and the emphasis on morality of the various Masonic rituals and teachings, this simple explanation of Freemasonry seems inadequate. To obtain a deeper historical appreciation, one could consider the various ancient and medieval legends with an open mind and then decide for yourself which ones are a better fit.



Legend: The Ancient Scientific Perspective

It has recently been suggested (by Knight and Lomas) that Freemasonry ultimately evolved from Megalithic tribes who, having discovered science and astronomy, constructed numerous astounding astronomical observatories including Newgrange on the river Boyne, Bryn Celli Ddu and Stonehenge between 7100 BC and 2500 BC. It is believed that these sites enabled those tribes to chart the seasons and years by observing the rotations of the sun and the third brightest object in the sky, Venus. These were essential skills as without such timekeeping, civilisation would be hopelessly unable to plan or progress beyond mere day to day subsistence.



Indeed, the Book of Enoch, discovered amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls from the Qumran and from which many higher Masonic Orders draw their inspiration, explains the scientific principles by which those earliest observatories (or Uriels Machines) operate. It is then argued that this knowledge was shared and taken to the East prior to a predicted and devastating comet impact and subsequent world flood in 3150 BC. 



Many survivors maintained Enochian and Noachide customs and when the Enochian-Zadokite priests were expelled from Jerusalem in 70 AD by the Romans, having first hidden their scrolls and treasures deep under the ruins of Solomons Temple as recorded in the Qumran Copper Scroll, it seems possible that their alledged descendants, the founding Knights Templar families led by Hugues de Payens, would return in 1140 AD to dig them up and retrieve them. A great story, but it is doubtful whether this theory will take hold in serious academic circles.





Legend: The Ancient Stone Mason Perspective

Whilst Freemasonry draws much imagery from the history and construction of King Solomons Temple (@ 945 BC) by masons from the Phoenician city of Tyre, it seems fanciful to claim direct Stone-Mason links from that era. Nevertheless, skills in the manipulation of stone had been well established by then and had been handed down through the ages and through the hands of many peoples including craftsmen from the Greek, Byzantine and Roman eras. 



Certain present day Masonic words and meanings seem rooted from the time of the early Egyptians of this era: The virtues of truth and justice were said by them to be &#8220;on the square&#8221;. Confucius in 500BC referred to the squareness of actions; even Aristotle in 350 BC associates square actions with honest dealings. The square and its symbolism is very old and has maintained a remarkable consistency of meaning over the centuries. However, it does not necessarily follow that Freemasonry began in those eras any more than trying to assert that Euclid was a Freemason because his 47th Proposition (as shown on the WMs jewel) has relevance in modern Freemasonry!



Legend next informs us that Athelstan, having subjugated most of the minor kingdoms of England, gathered together many skilled masons and established York Rite Masonry in 926 AD by granting them a Royal Charter. The charter enabled the stonemasons to meet in general assembly once a year and seems to have been a catalyst for a host of construction projects including numerous abbeys, castles and fortresses. Athelsans importance to Stonemasons is mentioned in both the Regius and Cooke Manuscripts. The Scottish Rite, by contrast, was established many centuries later by Chevalier Andrew Ramsay (Ramsays Oration of 1737) and other exiled Stuart Scots in France who were plotting the restoration of James II. This has led to a diversity of subsequent Orders following the three basic Craft Degrees. Click here to find a drawing depicting the York and Scottish Rite relationship.



The Medieval Operative Masonic Guilds

We have evidence that Operative Masonic guilds (or gilds) existed in Scotland as early as 1057 and possibly in England from 1220 when we know the Masons Livery Company was in existence. Those guilds, associations or Compagnonnage as they were known in France and mainland Europe, were conscripted to produce sufficient masons of all qualities to satisfy the aspirations of Kings and the Church in their respective building programmes.



In days where travel and communication for all but King and Church was highly restricted, the guilds are believed to have developed their own methods of introduction and secret modes of recognition when working on various programmes around the country. These were essential in order to distinguish a skilled master from the aspiring apprentice. This was important because they were no written credentials in those days because only top Master Masons could read, let alone write letters of introduction on expensive parchment. However, some historians (chief among them John J Robinson) argue it is difficult to prove English stone masons guilds (unlike Scottish guilds) existed at all given the relative lack of evidence available to corroborate them. 



Box Club Charity Theory

A more recent theory suggests modern Freemasonry developed from charitable beginnings. In the 1600s many trades operated what have become known as box clubs where their members would set aside earnings for the group or individual members to fall back on if they suffered hard times. Those without such assistance usually starved through lack of other reliable welfare support. Evidence indicates these box clubs began to admit members outside their trade and had many of the characteristics of early masonic lodges. Perhaps Freemasonry arose from an early and successful box club framework which was later taken over by the leading intellectual lights that emerged in the seventeenth century?



The Knights Templar

Masonic legend and some tradition is borrowed from the fanciful stories of the Knights Templar, an enigmatic and powerful military Order of fighting monks set up by Hugues de Payens in 1118. Their illustrious history has been the subject of numerous fascinating books and their effect upon the course of world history, religion and commerce is much greater than generally recognised. They were also responsible for the erection of many churches (eg Middle Temple on the Embankment in London shown on the left) and the assembly of numerous large estates and would themselves have employed a great many stone masons. 



Although their effect upon Freemasonry is very uncertain, they had amassed considerable wealth and influence in London, Scotland and throughout the United Kingdom that cannot be overlooked. Most serious historians dismiss a direct link to the Knights Templars for lack of evidence. However, is it possible that the Knights Templars might have shared some of their knowledge and rituals with their more senior stone masons with whom they employed who later incorporated them into their own traditions?




The Knights Templars ostensible purpose was the protection of pilgrims on their journey from the coastal port of Jaffra to Jerusalem. Initially however, there were too few of them to be an effective escort. In any event, for the first nine years of their existence, they were far too busy purposefully digging under the ruins of King Solomons Temple to be offering any support to Pilgrims. It seems clear that during their excavations they discovered something of immense spiritual or material value for they swiftly became very rich and powerful and enjoyed this position for nearly two hundred years until the fall of the Holy Lands. Evidence of Templar excavations was found by Lieutenant Warren, Royal Engineers in 1867. The Knights Templars were effectively extinguished on Friday 13th October 1307 by King Philippe of France who, broke at the time, stole their lands and possessions (a fate he inflicted upon French Jews two years earlier) and with collusion from the Pope, instructed the Inquisition to torture any Templars he managed to round up to gain evidence to legitimise his grand theft. Many of the fit and able Knights (and their entourage) and most of their wealth managed to escape. It is from their exodus from France and other parts of Europe that much of Masonic folklore stems. 




Many Knights possibly settled in the comparative backwaters of Scotland, a land ruled by the excommunicated Robert The Bruce and therefore considered comparatively safe, being largely beyond the reach of the Pope and the Inquisition. No doubt they brought with them their treasures, relics, knowledge and ceremonies as depicted on the ground floor South West window stone carving at Roslin Chapel shown below. Some knights are believed to have travelled much further than the known lands of the times and even managed to find America. Certain corn carvings (see left) at Roslin Chapel appear to confirm this.



Given a background of organised secrecy, could it have been possible that Stonemasons guilds became convenient, if not unwitting, conduits of social refuge through the ages? Templars, who required a degree of privacy from State or Church in their thoughts, discussions or travel arrangements would have found stonemasons guilds attractive. History however, contains virtually no written references linking KT and Freemasonry until the 18th C. Most serious historians believe that a link with the Knights Templars only came about through marketing skills displayed by Ramsay in his Oration in 1737 when he attributed (in error) the origins of Freemasonry to Crusaders and the Knights of St John. Ramsey, a talented self-publicist, would have known that such a pedigree was bound to impress the French audience whom he was addressing. Robert Brydon, in his book The Masons and the Rosy Cross, informs us that Alexander Duechar confused the issue still further by his attempts to revive Scottish Templarism and integrating it within the ambit of Freemasonry.





Rosslyn Chapel

No discussion on Masonic history would be truly complete without a reference to Rosslyn Chapel, situated 5 miles south of Edinburgh and built in 1446 by Sir William St Clair whose family had deep Templar ancestry and alledged family ties back to Hugues de Payens. Rosslyn Chapel took 40 years to build and is highly embellished with Templar, Enochian and possibly some Masonic imagery. Given that it was constructed in an age when books could be censored or burned, it seems that William St Clair was intent on leaving permanent and peculiar encoded messages in the fabric of the chapel for posterity. 



The chapel contains the astounding &#8220;Apprentice Pillar&#8221; and numerous other intriguing stone carvings &#8211; one, on an external window (the photograph is on this web page) even depicts some form of initiation. Curiously, the official Rosslyn Chapel guidebook states that the William St Clair, brother of Edward, was granted the Charters of 1630 from the Masons of Scotland, recognising that the position of Grand Master Mason of Scotland had been hereditary in the St Clair family since it was granted by James II in 1441, the original charter having been destroyed in a fire. Whilst the relevance of Roslin Chapel within Freemasonry is highly controversial, its architectural features and carvings are outstanding and well worth a visit.





Proven History: Pre 1700

So much for legend, what about the facts? It is acknowledged that the Regius Manuscript held in the British Museum is the oldest genuine record of Masonic relevance and was written in @ 1390. Its author was probably a priest and this MS takes the form of an historical and instructional poem. Interestingly, the phrase &#8220;So Mote it be&#8221; is first quoted from this text. Next, it is important to consider the Cooke Manuscript (also in the British Museum) written by a Speculative mason in 1450. This is an important document because many current Masonic usages (eg the Constitutions written by Anderson in 1723) have obviously borrowed heavily from its content, which includes reference to the seven Liberal Arts and Sciences and the building of Solomons Temple. There are approximately 100 manuscripts, collectively known as the Old Charges, grouped together in four families held by various museums worldwide.



Next, we know that the London Company of Freemasons were granted Arms in 1473 and their coat included three castles and compasses and wer incorporated within Metropolitan Grand Lodge of London&#8217;s arms upon inauguration in 2003.



In 1583, a William Schaw was appointed by King James VI (later James I of England) as Master of the Work and Warden General. In 1598 he issued the first of the now famous Schaw Statutes which set out the duties its members owed to their Lodge. It also imposed penalties for unsatisfactory work and prohibited work with unqualified masons. Such was the profound significance of these statutes that hey are found transcribed into the Minute book of Aitcheson Haven lodge, an ordinary operative Scottish lodge which has minutes going back to 9 January 1599.



More importantly for Freemasons today, Schaw drew up a second Statute in 1599. The importance of this document lies in the fact that it makes the first veiled reference to the existence of esoteric knowledge within the craft of stone masonry. It also reveals that The Mother Lodge of Scotland, Lodge Kilwinning No. 0 existed at that time. His regulations required all lodges to keep written records, meet at specific times and test members in the Art of Memory. As a consequence he is regarded by some as the founder of modern Freemasonry as we know it today. On the right is a photo of the ruins of the Chapter House, the site of Kilwinnings first Lodge meetings.



The earliest known record of a Masonic initiation anywhere is that of John Boswell, Laird of Auchenleck, who was initiated in the Lodge of Edinburgh according to the lodge minutes of 8 June 1600. That lodge was Operative and Boswell appears to be an example of one of the earliest Speculative initiations and adds weight to a case for the Transition Theory of Freemasonry, at least in Scotland. The earliest records of an initiation in England include Sir Robert Moray in 1641 and Elias Ashmole in 1646. Abroad, the first native-born American to be made a Mason was probably Jonathan Belcher, in 1704, who was then the Governor of Massachusetts. 



Ashmole was a renowned author and scholar and knew contemporary Great Thinkers of the day including Robert Boyle, Sir Robert Moray, Christopher Wren, Isaac Newton and Dr John Wilkins &#8211; all early members of the Royal Society, which began its life as the Invisible College, an organization at one time led by Francis Bacon, before securing a Royal Charter from Charles II in 1662. It is understood the Invisible College often met in the early years in the Compton Room at Canonbury Tower in North London, a room embellished with wood panel carvings of Masonic significance commissioned by Bacon like the one below. 



One can imagine the level of secrecy that must have surrounded the Invisible College in its early days and in the notoriously treacherous years before and after the Reformation &#8211; the consequences of taking the wrong sides or inviting criticism of any kind in those days was often fatal and is commented on frequently enough by Pepys in his famous diary. To get a flavour of the times in mid Seventeenth Century England, bear in mind that slavery was still universal and the gunpowder plot was in recent memory. Galileo was in deep trouble with the Catholic Church by insisting that the earth revolved around the sun, Bacon&#8217;s works were banned by Rome and The Inquisition and the Courts, at least in Scotland, were still burning witches and heretics. These were still times of fear, state control and comparative intolerance. Personal safety therefore probably demanded that discussion of anything with an esoteric, moral or scientific flavour take place underground.



Despite the risks, Freemasonry was spreading quickly. Dr Robert plot, not a freemason (indeed, he was somewhat critical), but a secretary of the Royal Society wrote in his book &#8220;The Natural History of Staffordshire&#8221; in 1686, some forty years before Premier Grand Lodge was formed, that Freemasonry was &#8220;spread more or less all over the Nation and to persons of the most eminent quality &#8230;&#8221;.





So why would Thinkers and educated classes quietly develop or promote the concept of Freemasonry? Might it be possible that those opposed to intellectual and political suppression went underground and retained their anonymity and safety by clothing themselves with the appearance of an operative organization afforded by an early masonic lodge structure? It is then easy to see that embellishment of that structure by the adoption of old stonemasons Manuscripts and a perceived pedigree dating back to King Solomon would have given their membership a certain degree of authenticity and appeal.





Given that non stone-masons (Speculatives) were clearly being initiated from this time in England, some historians believe that Freemasonry was in transition at this point from pure Operative Masonry to Non Operative or Speculative Freemasonry. Equally, it could be argued that around this time, England copied the Scottish Masonic structure and set up an entirely Speculative form of Freemasonry which merely bore allegorical likeness to much earlier Scottish Operative lodges. This opinion has value when one considers that a disproportionate number of early Premier Grand Masters were Scottish and that the Constitutions were written by a Scotsman, Anderson.




Proven History: Post 1700

Little is known of Masonic activity for seventy years after Ashmole&#8217;s initiation in 1646 except that general London Club life became very popular. In 1717, four London lodges (the Apple Tree Tavern in Charles Street, the Goose & Gridiron Ale-house in St. Pauls Churchyard (pictured opposite), Crown Ale House near Drury Street and the Rummer & Grapes Tavern in Channel Row, Westminster) formed The Premier Grand Lodge of England. The date was St John The Baptists Day, 24 June 1717. The Inaugural Festive Board was held at the Goose and Gridiron, St Pauls (right). 



Anthony Sayer (left) presided over this feast as Grand Master and Premier Grand Lodge took on the Coat of Arms first granted to the London Company of Freemasons in 1473. Interestingly, those founding lodges had a very small membership of 15 Freemasons each except for &#8220;Rummer & Grapes which had 70 members. In 1723 the Constitutions were written by Anderson whose father was PM of a lodge in Aberdeen. Clearly, our Scottish brethren had a lot to contribute towards the initial development of English Freemasonry.



Interestingly, it has been suggested that Premier Grand Lodge only came about as a result of the threat by the Scottish Jacobite revolt in 1715. Anti-Scottish sentiment in those days might have prompted nervous London Freemasons to disassociate themselves from their Scottish roots, hide their history and strategically create a governing body allied to the Hanoverian Crown. If so, little wonder that Freemasonry now prohibits discussion of religion and politics at meetings!



In 1730, masonic ritual having been learned parrot-fashion up until then was widely published for the first time in Prichard&#8217;s exposure entitled Masonry Dissected. Ritual prior to that point followed a two-degree system and took the form of a combination of catechisms, some simplified symbolism and the Old Charges (see Jones and Hamer's The Early Masonic Catechisms edited by Henry Carr). Some historians (eg Murray Lyon) believe that this two-tier degree system was expanded when Desaguliers (Grand Master in 1719) wrote the Third Degree and grew again when Laurence Dermott (probably) introduced the Fourth (ie Royal Arch) Degree in 1752. 



It seems reasonably clear that by this time (ie the period between 1690 and 1725), owing to a spate of exposures, that numerous current Masonic usages, customs and ritual were already in practice: The words &#8220;hele&#8221; and &#8220;conceal&#8221; and &#8220;points of fellowship&#8221; are both found in the Edinburgh Register House Manuscript of 1696; the Square Compass and Bible are mentioned together in the Dumfries MS No. 4 of @ 1710, a London newspaper in 1723 salaciously described the five Noble Orders of Architecture and Brotherly Love, Relief, and Truth, made its appearance in print in a pamphlet printed in London in 1724. The word Tyler probably came into usage around this time and is thought to be derived from the French Tailleur, ie one who cuts.



The popularity of Freemasonry grew with great speed throughout the UK and around the world from 1717 following in the wake of British settlers, merchants and the military. In 1731 the first American Grand Lodge obtained its Constitution, The Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania, making it the first Grand Lodge in the United States of America. Over the next 100 years, Freemasonry attracted many leading lights forming the cream of the intellectual and scientific establishment including Sir Robert Walpole, Robert Burns, Mozart, Darwin, Frederick the Great and from the USA, Franklin, and Washington. Interestingly, the Duke of Wellington was initiated in 1790 at a cost of £2 5s 5d






However, initial successes in the UK were followed by a bad patch. This was caused by Premier Grand Lodge making drastic changes to the ritual and passwords and the creation of a third degree out of the previous two-degree ritual system. The reason for this change is unclear. One explanation might be Premier Grand Lodge&#8217;s exasperation with increasing requests for alms from poor and distressed immigrant freemasons arriving in increasing numbers from Ireland and Scotland prompted by the Industrial Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars. Fraudulent claims exploiting Masonic charity from information gleaned from the recent media &#8220;exposures&#8221; probably also upset them. Either way, the changes in the ritual effectively barred most Scottish and Irish Freemasons because they no longer had the right passwords; however, what they saved in misappropriated charity was lost in the goodwill of the established membership. Some traditionalists were so upset, they broke away and set up splinter groups. 



The minor splinter groups included the &#8220;Grand Lodge of All England held at York&#8221;. They claimed roots from the Saxon King Edwin who supposedly presided over masons meeting at York. Other freemasons simply never recognised Premier Grand Lodge in the first place and remained on their own.



The next and much more significant group broke away in 1751 and was called The Grand Lodge of England, nicknamed The Antients, Those whom they left behind in The Premier Grand Lodge of England were nicknamed The &#8220;Moderns&#8221;. The break-away group called themselves &#8220;Antients&#8221; because they felt they were adhering more faithfully to the old ritual, passwords and customs. They also welcomed and heard numerous charitable petitions from Scottish and Irish Freemasons which contrasts markedly with Premier Grand Lodge priorities.



We know that Grand Lodge certificates were in circulation by 1755. UGLE&#8217;s oldest certificate (issued to Bro De Pinna in 1767) is shown below. Click HERE for a separate article about the history of English Grand Lodge Certificates



The Antients met initially in the Turks Head Tavern, (in what is now Gerrard Street), Soho. Their Constitutions, predominantly written by their Grand Secretary, Laurence Dermott, in 1756 were entitled Ahiman Rezon and it is commonly believed that under his influential regime, the RA ritual was augmented to include new esoteric texts now delivered by the three Principals. In 1775, Freemasons Hall in London was first built by Thomas Sandby. Freemasons Hall as we know it today was built on the same, but enlarged site in 1932 and is dedicated to the Glorious Dead who fought in the Great War.



The motto &#8220;Vide Aude Tace&#8221; made its first appearance in the Free-Masons Calendar from 1777. It is derived from a line of &#8220;leonine&#8221; verse (of a type much used in the Middle Ages) and in full is &#8220;Audi, Vide, Tace, Si Vis Vivere In Pace&#8221; meaning Hear, see and hold your tongue, if in peace you would live on.



From this time onwards, new degrees and rituals proliferated which fuelled fierce argument between the &#8220;Antients&#8221; and the &#8220;Moderns&#8221;. Indeed, French Freemason, JM Ragon estimated that at one point, there were over 1400 separate Masonic degrees complete with additional invented or regionalised symbolism. Consequently, sixty years of bitterness followed after the Antient and Modern schism. An example of dispute between these two Grand lodges would be that the Antients worked a four-degree system whilst the Moderns only recognised a three Degree system. To the irritation of the Moderns, they often found their members sympathetic to the fourth or Royal Arch Degree, to the point where it became regarded as an extension to the Third Degree.



Eventually a compromise was negotiated and on St John The Evangelists Day, 27 December 1813, United Grand Lodge of England was formed, largely though the combined efforts of the Earl of Moira presiding over the Duke of Sussex (Moderns Grand Master) and the Duke of Kent (Antients Grand Master). The unification of these two bodies had enormous consequences for the ritual which had to be hurriedly reconciled, mainly in favour of the &#8220;Antients&#8221;. Most of the regulations and ritual determined then still apply to this day, with the exception that in 1832, the Triple Tau and new banners were introduced into the Royal Arch degree as the symbols of that order. 





More recently of course, certain colourful parts of RA and Craft texts have been toned down to satisfy the politically correct lobby. Further modernisation was undertaken in 2003 with the Inauguration of the Metropolitan Grand Lodge of London. This enabled some 50,000 London Freemasons to have a separate identity from United Grand Lodge of England and enabled UGLE to concentrate on its worldwide affairs and duties.



There is another aspect of the history of Freemasonry that should not be completely overlooked: The objection to Freemasonry by the Catholic Church. Freemasonry has been banned by the Catholic Church several times beginning in 1738 by the Papal Bull issued by Pope Clement 12th; this was followed by another Bull in 1751 and again in 1884. Finally these Bulls were rescinded in 1974 and the Vatican has since adopted a more tolerant stance towards Freemasonry.



The reasons the Vatican gave for their objections were varied. However, according to Matthew Scanlan (Freemasonry Today issue 25, 2003), the reason for the first Papal Bull was not based on any ideological objection to Freemasonry as is often supposed. Indeed in the wake of the 1738 Bull, the Popes brother, Cardinal Corsini wrote stressing that Freemasonry in England was merely an innocent amusement. The main objection, according to Corsini, was that a lodge in Florence founded by Freemason Baron Von Stosch had become corrupt. Stosch, it should be noted, was employed by the Foreign Office in London and was possibly using Freemasonry as a cover to spy on the exiled Stuart cause in Rome, of whom Pope Clement was sympathetic. The ensuing ban caused widespread misunderstanding for centuries with the assumption being that it was based purely on theological grounds. 



Indeed, it is recorded that such was the ill feeling towards freemasons in some Catholic countries that in Portugal in 1810, for example, the Duke of Wellington had to curtail his officers public Masonic activities whilst stationed there for fear of public unrest (Yasha Beresiner MQ Magazine April 2004). In more recent times most dictatorships (including those of Hitler, Franco and Mussolini) and certain zealous politicians have shown aggression towards bodies of men, including Freemasons, who might frustrate their fanatical plans by upholding freedom of thought, law and order and tolerance for ones neighbour.



In modern times, it is therefore somewhat gratifying that the EU has now drafted legislation that coincides with and to a degree protects Masonic principles, namely Articles 9 (right to freedom of thought), 10 (freedom of expression) and 11 (freedom of assembly and association) of the European Convention which are maintained by the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg.



Conclusion

So, on reflection, do we consider Freemasonry originated from Megalithic times, King Solomon, Athelstan, the Knights Templars, Medieval Stone Masons, Schaw, Box charities, the Invisible College or the Rosicrucians? Moreover, do we consider the roots of modern Freemasonry to be more vested in Scotland or England or perhaps France? We can only speculate. Whatever course Freemasonry actually followed, it has inspired millions of people across many countries for more than three centuries and has attracted famous personalities from Europe, United States of America and other Continents. Providing Freemasonry adapts to the times, explains its positive purpose more effectively (a task incumbent on each freemason) and learns how to handle media savvy opponents, it will doubtless continue to do so for several centuries more

http://www.oelodge.uklinux.net/history.htm


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

*THE KNIGHTS OF TEMPLER*
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Templarsign.jpg








The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon (Latin: Pauperes commilitones Christi Templique Solomonici), commonly known as the Knights Templar or the Order of the Temple (French: Ordre du Temple or Templiers), were among the most famous of the Western Christian military orders.[3] The organization existed for approximately two centuries in the Middle Ages.

Officially endorsed by the Roman Catholic Church around 1129, the Order became a favoured charity throughout Christendom, and grew rapidly in membership and power. Templar knights, in their distinctive white mantles with a red cross, were among the most skilled fighting units of the Crusades.[4] Non-combatant members of the Order managed a large economic infrastructure throughout Christendom, innovating financial techniques that were an early form of banking,[5][6] and building many fortifications across Europe and the Holy Land.

The Templars' existence was tied closely to the Crusades; when the Holy Land was lost, support for the Order faded. Rumours about the Templars' secret initiation ceremony created mistrust, and King Philip IV of France, deeply in debt to the Order, took advantage of the situation. In 1307, many of the Order's members in France were arrested, tortured into giving false confessions, and then burned at the stake.[7] Under pressure from King Philip, Pope Clement V disbanded the Order in 1312. The abrupt disappearance of a major part of the European infrastructure gave rise to speculation and legends, which have kept the "Templar" name alive into the modern day.


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

*Eye of Providence*







The Eye of Providence, or the all-seeing eye, is a symbol showing an eye surrounded by rays of light or a glory and usually enclosed by a triangle. It is sometimes interpreted as representing the eye of God keeping watch on humankind .

*Religious use of the Eye*

Imagery of an all-seeing eye can be traced back to Egyptian mythology and the Eye of Horus. It also appears in Buddhism, where Buddha is also regularly referred to as the "Eye of the World" throughout Buddhist scriptures (e.g. Mahaparinibbana Sutta) and is represented as a trinity in the shape of a triangle known as the Tiratna, or Triple Gem.

In Medieval and Renaissance European iconography, the Eye (often with the addition of an enclosing triangle) was an explicit image of the Christian Trinity. Seventeenth-century depictions of the Eye of Providence sometimes show it surrounded by clouds or sun bursts.

*FREEMASONARY AND THE EYE OF PROVIDANCE*

Today, the Eye of Providence is usually associated with Freemasonry. The Eye first appeared as part of the iconography of the Freemasons in 1797, with the publication of Thomas Smith Webb's Freemasons Monitor.[3] Here, it represents the all-seeing eye of God and is a reminder that a Mason's thoughts and deeds are always observed by God (who is referred to in Masonry as the Grand Architect of the Universe). Typically, the Masonic Eye of Providence has a semi-circular glory below the eye&#8212;often the lowest rays extend farther down. Sometimes the Eye is enclosed by a triangle.

Popular among conspiracy theorists is the claim that the Eye of Providence shown atop an unfinished pyramid on the Great Seal of the United States indicates the influence of Freemasonry in the founding of the United States. This was dramatised in the 2004 Disney film National Treasure. However, the first Masonic use of the Eye dates to 14 years after the creation of the Great Seal, and the Masonic version does not incorporate a pyramid, although the enclosing triangle is often interpreted as one. Furthermore, among the three members of the original design committee for the Great Seal (or any of the ones that followed it), only Benjamin Franklin was a Mason. Indeed, many Masonic organizations have explicitly denied any connection to the creation of the Seal.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

*THE MASONIC SEAL OF AMERICA*




way back in the Egyptian Times, as far back as 2,500 B.C. We know ancient Egypt had secret societies. As far back as then. 
A small little group called the Knights Templar, were formed and there was 9 of them. They supposedly went to Jeruselum fighting in a war for 9 years. But is fact they were searching for something, what? Nobodies quite sure but whatever they found out or discovered or went for, It appears as they found it and brought it back with them. Upon return they started allowing memberships into the "Knights Templar" secret society, and a membership fee? Entire estate's, Castle's, land all kinds of wordly goods. Within a very short time they became very very wealthy, and had alot of "pull" politically. This put off France. And they sent to capture these "Knights Templar" but they fled England and went to Scotland, changing their name to "Scottish Right of Free Masonry"

This group which is essentially the "Knights Templar" under a new name; (Scottish Right of Free Masonry) proceeded to run it's secret society getting more powerful... And established the first offshoot of themselves tightled the "Free Masons" of London...They also established what are now called "Lodges" and within 3 years of this new London group the "Free Masons" being created it appeared in America. 1730 is the first year of recorded "Free Mason" meetings....and the establishment of the group here in America....

Did you know that 50 out of the 51 signature's on the Constitution are from openly known "Free Mason's" ???

Now around the same time period a group called the "Illuminati" formed in London and were the elite of the elite who liked to get together and discuss the politics of Governments. Well as you might see very clearly, most any country wouldn't allow that out in the open. They were basically the first version of "The Council of Foregn Relations"....They lasted for 8 years and are reported to not be a real group since.

who-knows......

We see later on down the road here a handfull of secret societies set up at the pristine elite college's.....Primarily "Skull and Bones" at Yale. Formed in 1832... About 100 years after Free Mason's appeared in America... And by "Free Mason" money and member's who founded it.

The amount of people who were in the Skull and Bones society, almost every single member goes on to later hold a very important or powerful position in public and world affairs.

"President's are not elected, but more chosen and selected based on Blood"

I mean both the last choices Bush and Kerry were both in the Skull and Bones admittingly. Even across party lines these societies are all connected because the are all offshoots from the one before..... Almost like having a cup covering another cup that's covering another cup and so on and so on. Until you have many layers...

These secret societies are the pecking order and structure of promoting "family names" and "old money" and preserving it. Also the control of the entire world.

Which brings me to the dollar bill.



Notice the eye on the pyramid? Well that is a "Free Mason" Symbol... And notice what's writtin under it?

Novus Ordo Seclorum = The Latin motto "novus ordo seclorum" was suggested by Charles Thomson when he put together the final design for the reverse side of the Great Seal in June 1782: "Novus" means: new, young, fresh, novel. "Ordo" means: series, row, order. "Seclorum, a shortened form of seculorum (s&#195;&#166;culorum), is the plural of seculum (s&#195;&#166;culum), means: generations, centuries, ages.

And...."The single eye was a well-established artistic convention for an 'omniscient Ubiquitous Deity' in the medallic art of the Renaissance. In 1614 the frontispiece of The History of the World by Sir Walter Raleigh showed an eye in a cloud labeled "Providentia" overlooking a globe." hmmm could be interesting.....

But what I'm getting at is "The New World Order" The NWO, is real and in effect currently. And for that matter has been damn near controlling everything that happens since the Knights of Templar......There were 4 who worked on the design of the dollar bill...out of them. Only 1 was was a known free mason (Benjamin Franklin)
And guess who signed and approved the dollar bill design? Have fun finding out who was the president in the year 1782.....I find it very odd that George Washington wasn't president until 1789-1797..... Yet someone and who approved the symbols on our American Currency in 1782. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now I want to talk about a certain trait we all seem to have. And that is that "Birds of a Feather will flock together" People have been partitioning out and segregating themselves for a long time. We even see clique's form on a forum that has been around a while.... And it's a perfectly normal thing and we all do it. You feel more comfortable being around people who are like you or similar to you... We can all relate to this right?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, Apply that principle to VERY VERY WEALTHY FAMILIES... Nothing has changed even since the days of ROME when you married according to "blood line" and "social class" We do it today ourselves.....Only not so methodically thought out. Imagine a select few people who had so much control and so much power they could pretty much do or effect anything to happen and they got together and organised against those who aren't in the "know" You'd always have a head start....to us. We are the Barbarians to them, believe that.

In 1921 The Council of Foreign Relations (secret society) was formed by elite member's of the "Free Mason's" Group and was formed by a David Rockefeller.... They allow a place to have a "free forum thinking community were no-one is held accountable for whatever they say" even if it's treasonous. Going back to the Illuminati, see the resemblance now? Only this time it is formed as a secret society and allowed to be... They in return form the "Tri-Lateral Commision" 

It's important to note that some member's of the Tri-Lateral Commision and the Council of Foreign Relations are: British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Bill Clinton, the head exec of the World Trade, George Bush Sr. and Jr., Also people like Jimmy Carter and many many more, If asked I'll get a list of openly known Tri-Lateral Member's....

These people at the Tri-Lateral Commision basically wrote the whole thing for the formation of the U.N. and handed it over to the president to sign it. He taking all the credit. And boom there's a UN. 

All of this builds up to the infamous "Bilderberg Group" And they are so secret we don't even have a name for them. They are the ultra super elite of the elite who meet up once a year at the ultra exclusive Bilderberg Hotel and Estates.... Now you tell me if I'm crazy but, I'm willing to guess that if you get 100-120 of the most powerful men on the planet who's names include and are not limited too:

Henry Kissinger
Peter Jennings
Bill Clinton

The entire royalty of all European Countries and alot more names, people like Bill Gates... Basically if you had to sit around and name 100 of the most wealthy and powerful people on Earth, (yes, they were there) 

And I bet the didn't have actual Military Forces on a shoot to kill with ultra supreme security surrounding all these people. This meeting is where all the business world wide happens...I am talking about people from England, Saudi Arabia, China, Russia, Japan, America, and pretty much the power player's.....Across party lines and political beliefs and government's. Yet they all meet up together.

The media, well all the head of Washington Post, New York Times, USA Today, and all the major Networks (for TV) have an open invite to the meeting, but must first agree that they will not report about it. AT ALL......

So here's who the man is......It's what 120 super elite rich people decide and that's what goes.

"Whoever has the Gold, Makes the Rules".......live it, learn it, and realize what's going on around you!!!

I believe in this 100&#37; and it's not even a conspiracy, I have demonstrated how all the way back to Egyption Times people had secret societies that affected the Government's and World around them..........................

If these people get what they are aiming for, I fear that we will have a 

(((Global Version of Nazi Germany)))


Now i may have missed a few things but over all I think I nailed it on the head.

The New World Order is here...........................


THIS WAS A POST FROM ANOTHER FORUM.
http://images.google.com.pk/imgres?imgurl=http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/1379/halfdollar7il.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/conspiracy-theories/10196-man.html&usg=__PWvvzEzmIbfMnKrv1ssQDzKJehk=&h=384&w=367&sz=268&hl=en&start=5&tbnid=pktAQCkrTRiDOM:&tbnh=123&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3DFree%2BMason%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

http://www.freethinkersoffaith.com/images/masonic_emblem_chart.jpg


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

I AM NOT SURE BUT SOME PEOPLE CONNECT FREEMASONARY WITH DAJJAL


----------



## Owais

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> I AM NOT SURE BUT SOME PEOPLE CONNECT FREEMASONARY WITH DAJJAL



Thats true my friend. all of US Presidents were of Massonic order except John F. Kennedy who was assassinated by them. they created the NWO to force one eye agenda on the world.






watch zaid hamid exposes the game of these followers of dajjal(Zionists) who controls world's economy

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

[video=google;-9023187359471101619]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9023187359471101619"[/video]


----------



## forcetrip

Please stop this time wasting nonsense propaganda .. They are nothing but things to distract you from real issues at hand .. They just make more money on your ignorance


----------



## chindit

yawn, this is boring. is anyone even interested in this kind of stuff here?


----------



## Owais

forcetrip said:


> Please stop this time wasting nonsense propaganda .. They are nothing but things to distract you from real issues at hand .. They just make more money on your ignorance



can u please tell us what do you mean by "real issues at hand"??
the reality on ground is that USA is hijacked by these jews and christian zionists and they are using USA as a bulldozer to fulfill their objectives. see the Iraq, afghanistan, the greed to capture most of world's wealth (including oil and gold). is this not reality for you??


----------



## Meesna

forcetrip said:


> Please stop this time wasting nonsense propaganda .. They are nothing but things to distract you from real issues at hand .. They just make more money on your ignorance



You may want to see arrivals; 

The Arrivals - Complete Series (Part 1)

The Arrivals - Complete Series (Part 2)

The Arrivals - Complete Series (Part 3)

The Arrivals - Complete Series (Part 4)

The Arrivals - Complete Series (Part 5)

Don't have to agree with everything but try to see at least an hour of it before making up mind.


----------



## TexasJohn

Owais said:


> can u please tell us what do you mean by "real issues at hand"??
> the reality on ground is that USA is hijacked by these jews and christian zionists and they are using USA as a bulldozer to fulfill their objectives. see the Iraq, afghanistan, the greed to capture most of world's wealth (including oil and gold). is this not reality for you??



Owalis and others:

I am a freemason and a Knights Templar. All US presidents were NOT Freemasons. All the signors of the US constitution were not Masons - most of them were.

We have nothing to do with the Illuminati, or the Skull & Bones group..

The history portion of the origins are mostly correct. The conspiracy portion starts @ post #5 and gets more and more hilarious!!

Relax, we are not trying to take over the world!!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Patriot

I don't know anything about freemason .What exactly is freemason ?


----------



## TexasJohn

Patriot said:


> I don't know anything about freemason .What exactly is freemason ?



There you go. It's from a Lodge in Canada, it's sums it up.

What is Freemasonry


----------



## Keysersoze

You know its amazing that with more information available freely to them, that people become dumber......


----------



## forcetrip

Very True ..

And real issues at hand are .. get away from your keyboard go visit some of our IDP's .. Take a weekend .. It will be good for you .. You cant sit in your house and say we are being bulldozed by freemasons .. WE HAVE BEEN BULLDOZED ..


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> how nuch old is this group



this group is centuries old


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen




----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> Please stop this time wasting nonsense propaganda .. They are nothing but things to distract you from real issues at hand .. They just make more money on your ignorance



I think this is not a propaganda. But i have to agree that they really make more money at the ignorance.


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> I don't know anything about freemason .What exactly is freemason ?



They are a century old group which helds its meetings in secracy and their lnguage of contact is geomatery.


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> You know its amazing that with more information available freely to them, that people become dumber......



so you can post something less dumber so that i may become smarter


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> I am a freemason and a Knights Templar. All US presidents were NOT Freemasons. All the signors of the US constitution were not Masons - most of them were.
> 
> We have nothing to do with the Illuminati, or the Skull & Bones group..
> 
> The history portion of the origins are mostly correct. The conspiracy portion starts @ post #5 and gets more and more hilarious!!
> 
> 
> Relax, we are not trying to take over the world!!



So do you have somethingt more usefull to share. though you are not tryin to take over the world.


----------



## wtf

TexasJohn said:


> Owalis and others:
> 
> I am a freemason and a Knights Templar.



I can understand how you could be a free mason. But as far as I know you cannot be a knight Templar.

Knight Templars were a military-religious group who were authorized by the Pope to take over Jerusalem during the crusades. The interest in crusades decreased after a while and they later became bankers . (Forts held by knights were secure for deposits, their network in different countries allowed transfers and lack of family ensured honesty). One of the Pope's did not like them and removed the authorization for Knights to exist as a group and generally went on a witch hunt. Atleast for the next few years the organization did not exist and the pope has never given the authority for the group to re-form. 

Forming another society with the same name does not make you a Knight. 

The mere fact that you guys are probably registered as a non-profit in Canada/US (a territory that in turn has allegience to the Queen or another that is secular) makes you a "wannabe" Knights group. You cannot basically have a Knights templar without papal authority. And another is the fact that you cannot follow any of the original Knights mission - those who call themselves knights today are not monks, are not celibate, do not go charging to Jerusalem and often are not even Christians. 

If I formed a Hashishin club of Kakinada and signed up as the chief, do I become a real Hashishin? That's sort of like Idi Amin calling himself the "King of Scotland".


----------



## TexasJohn

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> So do you have somethingt more usefull to share. though you are not tryin to take over the world.



Certainly! Did you read the link I posted in post #15 completely?

I thought that was pretty comprehensive..what am I missing?


----------



## TexasJohn

wtf said:


> I can understand how you could be a free mason. *But as far as I know you cannot be a knight Templar*.
> 
> Knight Templars were a military-religious group who were authorized by the Pope to take over Jerusalem during the crusades. The interest in crusades decreased after a while and they later became bankers . (Forts held by knights were secure for deposits, their network in different countries allowed transfers and lack of family ensured honesty). One of the Pope's did not like them and removed the authorization for Knights to exist as a group and generally went on a witch hunt. Atleast for the next few years the organization did not exist and the pope has never given the authority for the group to re-form.
> 
> Forming another society with the same name does not make you a Knight.
> 
> The mere fact that you guys are probably registered as a non-profit in Canada/US (a territory that in turn has allegience to the Queen or another that is secular) makes you a "wannabe" Knights group. *You cannot basically have a Knights templar without papal authority*. And another is the fact that you cannot follow any of the original Knights mission - those who call themselves knights today are not monks, are not celibate, do not go charging to Jerusalem and often are not even Christians.
> 
> If I formed a Hashishin club of Kakinada and signed up as the chief, do I become a real Hashishin? That's sort of like Idi Amin calling himself the "King of Scotland".



Your post is awesome in it's stupidity!!!

You obviously know NOTHING about the Masons or the York Rite. You DO have to be a Christian to even take the degrees for Knight Templar, Royal Arch, or Knights of Malta.

You DO NOT need Papal authority for Knight Templar. Matter of fact we are at odds with the Vatican, thank you very much!

That's fine also that you are clueless about all this.

If you are interested go sign up and do the degrees. You can find out for yourself.

Until then...


----------



## wtf

TexasJohn said:


> Your post is awesome in it's stupidity!!!
> 
> You obviously know NOTHING about the Masons or the York Rite. You DO have to be a Christian to even take the degrees for Knight Templar, Royal Arch, or Knights of Malta.
> 
> You DO NOT need Papal authority for Knight Templar. Matter of fact we are at odds with the Vatican, thank you very much!
> 
> That's fine also that you are clueless about all this.
> 
> If you are interested go sign up and do the degrees. You can find out for yourself.
> 
> Until then...



Bah. From the Knight's templar website.
FAQ/INFO

*THERE IS NO PROOF OF DIRECT CONNECTION BETWEEN THE ANCIENT ORDER AND THE MODERN ORDER KNOWN TO DAY AS THE KNIGHTS TEMPLAR.*

What I am claiming is that you are just re-using an old name. And as long as there is no direct connection between the old KoT and the new one (either a time continuity or continuity of aim), this just remains a social club. 

Look at the aims of the original Knights (again from the same website)
_In short, the Knights Templar were laymen who protected and defended Christians traveling to Jerusalem. These men took vows of poverty, chastity and obedience, and were renowned for their fierceness and courage in battle._

And look at the current activities

_Members of the Order today organize fund-raising activities such as *breakfasts, dinners, dances and flea markets* for the support of Masonic-related youth groups, in addition to raising millions of dollars for charitable purposes_

Anyway, what purpose would a Knight have when knights have neither the privilege of leading armies, nor Jerusalem under Muslim rule ?

------------------
To summarize, If you are a Knights templar, then I am the chief lord of Hashishins and the master of all of Arabia.I'll soon be setting up a website with FAQs and recruiting members.Anyone paying $100 a month and professing a belief that organizing tea parties to collect money for my club can join. Use of Hashish is optional.


----------



## wtf

TexasJohn said:


> Your post is awesome in it's stupidity!!!
> 
> You obviously know NOTHING about the Masons or the York Rite. You DO have to be a Christian to even take the degrees for Knight Templar, Royal Arch, or Knights of Malta.



Oh and I missed the Christian part. The Scottish rite does not need you to be a Christian. I could Google up another bunch of groups who also call themselves "Knights" who won't even ask you for a religious affiliation. I at least know of one group that calls itself the Jewish (open to Jews) Knights Templar. Seems like they are too poor to have a website.

Scottish Rite / About Scottish Rite / FAQ

_ARE THERE ANY RELIGIOUS DISQUALIFICATIONS?
The Scottish Rite does not intrude on the religious beliefs of its members, but it does require that its adherents profess a belief in a Supreme Being, and urges its members to be active in their respective houses of worship. It does not attempt to teach any creed nor pretend to be a religion nor a substitute for religion. Scottish Rite practices universality. _


Anyway, my claim is that unless you can either 1) Prove that you are somehow related to the original Knights and are a rebel group or 2) Get a papal authority to be a Knight (or one from British Queen, head of Anglican church), you are not really a Knight. You are just a bunch of guys using an old name to make yourselves sound cool.


----------



## Owais

TexasJohn said:


> Owalis and others:
> 
> I am a freemason and a Knights Templar. All US presidents were NOT Freemasons. All the signors of the US constitution were not Masons - most of them were.
> 
> We have nothing to do with the Illuminati, or the Skull & Bones group..
> 
> The history portion of the origins are mostly correct. The conspiracy portion starts @ post #5 and gets more and more hilarious!!
> 
> Relax, we are not trying to take over the world!!



ok Jhon then tell us what is the mission/core objective of this social club? why this society is still a secret society?? why they have one eyed Triangle as their symbol? aren't Illuminati and freemasonry same?
and BTW: we are relaxed because we are in Pakistan and we know that you cannot takeover the world even you have taken over the west and 80% of Muslim world


----------



## forcetrip

Its like beating your head against the wall .. repeatedly .. and wtf .. WTF? .. I didnt see him post anywhere he was carrying a sword and shield? And you have something against cool names for clubs? what was your whole point?

P.S Free Masons on google .. is like bacteria under a rock ... Thanks to Hash smokers listening to Pink Floyd..


----------



## TexasJohn

wtf said:


> Oh and I missed the Christian part. The Scottish rite does not need you to be a Christian. I could Google up another bunch of groups who also call themselves "Knights" who won't even ask you for a religious affiliation. I at least know of one group that calls itself the Jewish (open to Jews) Knights Templar. Seems like they are too poor to have a website.
> 
> Scottish Rite / About Scottish Rite / FAQ
> 
> _ARE THERE ANY RELIGIOUS DISQUALIFICATIONS?
> The Scottish Rite does not intrude on the religious beliefs of its members, but it does require that its adherents profess a belief in a Supreme Being, and urges its members to be active in their respective houses of worship. It does not attempt to teach any creed nor pretend to be a religion nor a substitute for religion. Scottish Rite practices universality. _
> 
> 
> Anyway, my claim is that unless you can either 1) Prove that you are somehow related to the original Knights and are a rebel group or 2) Get a papal authority to be a Knight (or one from British Queen, head of Anglican church), you are not really a Knight. You are just a bunch of guys using an old name to make yourselves sound cool.



You have your facts wrong again. It is true there is no *direct connection * between the Knights of old and us - I don't remember making that claim.

The Scottish Rite is a different branch of the Masons from the York Rite ( the degrees I mentioned)

The Scottish right does not specify being a Christian - I know Shriners that are Jewish and muslim.

The York Rite on the other hand DOES require you to declare Christianity as your faith.

Atheists are not allowed in Freemasonry.

You are confusing the Knights of Columbus with Knights Templar. KoC have the blessing of the Vatican, The Knights Templar do not! They had the blessings of the Crown and Church of England.

I have never even heard of Jewish "Knights", certainly they are not a part of us.

Masonry has three pillars ,Faith, Hope and Charity. Charity is the main thing.

Have you ever heard of the Scottish Rite Hospitals for Children? they are worldwide. We never charge a single red cent for treatment, it's free, and it's for the kids. 

They also have the Shriners Circus which is to raise money for Charity.

The differences between York and Scottish rites are best explained by this link.

The York And Scottish Rites Compared

Feel free to become the Amir of "Hash...whatever it is". 

You can also believe what you like about the Masons. Your knowledge in their activities is somewhat limited, I can tell..

It's all about wanting to give a little back to humanity and those less fortunate.. like saying thanks to the almighty ( as you know him)

Reactions: Like Like:
2


----------



## wtf

forcetrip said:


> Its like beating your head against the wall .. repeatedly .. and wtf .. WTF? .. I didnt see him post anywhere he was carrying a sword and shield? And you have something against cool names for clubs? what was your whole point?



WTF, wtf, wtf... it's like an echo chamber in here 

I have nothing against cool names for clubs. I hate it when someone picks up a historically important one and then ends up acting all too cool.I find it childish.
http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2009/04/28/

My point was that just because you re-use an old name you don't really become a Knight. At the very least you'd want ideological continuity. 

Look at the definition of a Knight (from wiktionary, but other dictionaries will say the same).
_# A warrior, especially of the Middle Ages.
# Nowadays, a person on whom a knighthood has been conferred by a monarch._

It is a European title for what would go as today's officer. The Queen continues to award the title. You can't just start calling yourself a knight (Just as calling yourself a King or an Amir won't make you one).

Similarly the Templar part - the original Templars were an institution started by Papal authority. When the Pope took the authority (and money) away, the real Templars stopped to exist. Sort of like a public company - it only exists as long as the state authorizes it.Once that is gone, the company ceases to exist and trademarks and assets etc. revert to the state or go to the creditors.


----------



## wtf

TexasJohn said:


> It's all about wanting to give a little back to humanity and those less fortunate.. like saying thanks to the almighty ( as you know him)



I have nothing against all of this. You can run hospitals, charities etc. What I am specifically against is calling yourselves Knights Templar. 
My interest in Knights Templar is due to their banking - it was a big step in European banking to be able to transfer money through time (interests, safekeeping) and from place to place (deposit in france, collect in England). The modern day KT can't fight for Jerusalem, nor are bankers. Why reuse an old name and cause confusion. And even worse, you can't even trademark that name - Look at all the stupid lawsuits between different groups that call themselves the Knights

Complaint Knights Templar


If you don't share their worldviews and if you don't have continuity, why can't you just call yourselves something nice, like "Missionaries of Charity" or something ? (OK, not that specific one, that's taken).

BTW, I am not confusing you with Knights of Columbus. I've seen their headquarters in New Haven and seen their processions in Hamden in summer.I know they are Catholic.


----------



## wtf

TexasJohn said:


> Feel free to become the Amir of "Hash...whatever it is".



Hashishins were a sect of Muslims (currently Ismayelis) who fought battles. They were rumoured to go into battles under influence of Hashish (a narcotic). That is where the name Assassin comes from - because they made political assassinations a powerful tool of influence. 

The original sect is dead. But there are a bunch of Ismayeli sects around (none use Hashish). 

What I was trying to say is that just because I can register the name somewhere and start an NGO, I am not REALLY a hashishin. That name has a place in history.

And about my knowledge being limited -- I certainly don't know much about your organization. But I have researched enough about the real knights to get a picture of what they were like. (Again, as I said, focused on financial side, not the people). I also have met more people than I care for who all claimed to be Knights of Templar in some form or other.


----------



## wtf

TexasJohn said:


> Atheists are not allowed in Freemasonry.



Bull. Maybe not in your particular club.

Welcome on the website of the Grand Orient de France !
Grand Orient de France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## TexasJohn

wtf said:


> Bull. Maybe not in your particular club.
> 
> Welcome on the website of the Grand Orient de France !
> Grand Orient de France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The links you provided have NOTHING to do with the Freemasons. 

The Ancient Free and Accepted Masons are called speculative masons. If you understand THAT term, you would understand why there are Knights Templar today.

Continental Masons are something different.

Again NO atheist can ever be made a Mason. That is part of our screening process. I have served in that commitee several times.

What is so amazing about you, is as little as you yourself admit to know about the Masons, you are fairly adamant in your ignorance of them. I feel for you. Were you ever turned down from joining then?


----------



## wtf

TexasJohn said:


> The links you provided have NOTHING to do with the Freemasons.
> 
> The Ancient Free and Accepted Masons are called speculative masons. If you understand THAT term, you would understand why there are Knights Templar today.
> 
> Continental Masons are something different.
> 
> Again NO atheist can ever be made a Mason. That is part of our screening process. I have served in that commitee several times.
> 
> What is so amazing about you, is as little as you yourself admit to know about the Masons, you are fairly adamant in your ignorance of them. I feel for you. Were you ever turned down from joining then?



What I am saying is that they have as much right to the name as you have. .You don't have a trademark on that name in France, do you ? And the Continental/American divide - Freemasons were started on the continent, so were the knights. I would say they have more right to the name than you do.

That specific group who also call themselves Freemasons, will allow atheists to join. It is apparently why they split from other Freemasons.

BTW, you really have to stop the personal attacks. Each of the posts of yours said "you are ignorant", "you know nothing" and now "were you turned down". You just caused me to disbelieve any of the claims you made about Charity, Faith, whatever else. You are (indirectly) discrediting your group, since you are speaking for them and doing that in a not-so-nice way.

I have no interest in Templars except historical. My opposition to you using the term is because I don't think you calling yourselves that makes you a real knight.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

No Knights Templer exist in the Moderen Times. Even if there exist any they would be the generations living in Scotland.


----------



## TexasJohn

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> No Knights Templer exist in the Moderen Times. Even if there exist any they would be the generations living in Scotland.



OK! have it your way. We are a figment of your imagination. Why then the various conspiracy theories? you started the thread remember?

wtf- If you don't mind, regardless of what you think, I think we will continue to call ourselves Knights. If you do mind, we will continue to do so anyway..

Discussion concluded?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> OK! have it your way. We are a figment of your imagination. Why then the various conspiracy theories? you started the thread remember?



What i got was The Masons are the desendents of the Knights Templer. But being a Desendent dosent makes you the Knight Templer. Its like if i am the Desendet of Mughal then i would call my selves as the Emperor os Subcontinent ofcourse not.

Regards
the elements of life.


----------



## TexasJohn

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> What i got was The Masons are the desendents of the Knights Templer. But being a Desendent dosent makes you the Knight Templer. Its like if i am the Desendet of Mughal then i would call my selves as the Emperor os Subcontinent ofcourse not.
> 
> Regards
> the elements of life.



I don't remember ever saying the Masons are the descendants of the Knight Templar..

unfortunately when I point out the inaccuracies in wtf's information, his feelings get hurt. 

I am trying to figure out the point you guys are trying to make. 

Are we supposed to be this ultra secret society that works in the background controlling the planet?


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> Are we supposed to be this ultra secret society that works in the background controlling the planet?



I think looking at the info available we can conclude this.


----------



## TexasJohn

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> I think looking at the info available we can conclude this.



Your information is flawed. But have it your way!!

We will continue to be the " silent force" behind it all...


----------



## DarkStar

TexasJohn said:


> The links you provided have NOTHING to do with the Freemasons.
> 
> The Ancient Free and Accepted Masons are called speculative masons. If you understand THAT term, you would understand why there are Knights Templar today.
> 
> Continental Masons are something different.
> 
> Again NO atheist can ever be made a Mason. That is part of our screening process. I have served in that commitee several times.
> 
> What is so amazing about you, is as little as you yourself admit to know about the Masons, you are fairly adamant in your ignorance of them. I feel for you. Were you ever turned down from joining then?



Well, my uncle who is a staunch muslim, is also a free mason. Although I personally found it weird that he joined, I was surprised that as a muslim he actually could.


----------



## TexasJohn

DarkStar said:


> Well, my uncle who is a staunch muslim, is also a free mason. Although I personally found it weird that he joined, I was surprised that as a muslim he actually could.



Absolutely!! I am glad to hear that. For we call the Blue Lodge ( Master Mason) you simply have to believe in God. I wish I could meet him some day. Is he in Pakistan or the US?

10 years ago, I visited a Lodge In Bombay, India. While we in the US have a Bible, in India they had holy books from several religions. The quaran was one of them!


----------



## ARSENAL6

TexasJohn said:


> Absolutely!! I am glad to hear that. For we call the Blue Lodge ( Master Mason) you simply have to believe in God. I wish I could meet him some day. Is he in Pakistan or the US?
> 
> 10 years ago, I visited a Lodge In Bombay, India. While we in the US have a Bible, in India they had holy books from several religions. The quaran was one of them!



///....///// Hypocracy 
Being one and going up against it ! 
complete stupidity


----------



## Desertfalcon

It's probably been covered already, but I wanted to give what I know. I am a member of the Knights of Columbus and we are "real" Knights, recognized by the Church, although we are not a military order. We are primarily a charitable and fraternal order. We have a military structure and rank. We are bound, as all Catholic Knights, to the defense of the faith and our Holy Church. The Church does still have military orders however and it also "knights" people directly. I don't know of any actual "Templar" orders that are recognized by Rome, but the other ancient orders such as the Knights of Malta, still exist and are influential. The Masons, although they may use such designations as "Templars", have no real connection with them and are not a religious body, as *John* from Texas has explained. As a Catholic, I am forbidden from joining the Masons. I had no idea that there were Muslims who were also Masons. Interesting.


----------



## wtf

TexasJohn said:


> wtf- If you don't mind, regardless of what you think, I think we will continue to call ourselves Knights. If you do mind, we will continue to do so anyway..
> 
> Discussion concluded?



Absolutely. You have a right to call yourselves whatever you want as long as it is not trademarked. Actually, you'd still have a right to call yourself that even if it was trademarked, but just not in commercial speech or in misleading terms.

The only problem is that so does every other group of people who also think being a Knight is cool. So you end up having atheist knights, Muslim Knights and Jewish Knights. 

Endless confusion since the original Knights were an anti-Muslim order, anti-Semitic (mainly because they wanted Jerusalem, not alleging a personal hatred) , Catholic order.

Messing with dictionary is what you are doing, in my opinion. But there isn't much more to talk about.


----------



## DarkStar

TexasJohn said:


> Absolutely!! I am glad to hear that. For we call the Blue Lodge ( Master Mason) you simply have to believe in God. I wish I could meet him some day. Is he in Pakistan or the US?
> 
> 10 years ago, I visited a Lodge In Bombay, India. While we in the US have a Bible, in India they had holy books from several religions. The quaran was one of them!



He's in the uk, actually. Although I must admit, I do not know much about the masons apart from the usual scare stories that are circulated. According to him, the organisation is fairly benign.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## Desertfalcon

I agree with your take on it *wtf*, but I would say "love-hate" when it comes to Muslims. Through the long battles between Christendom and Islam, we in the West "borrowed" everything we could from the Islamic world. From mathematics and medicine to coffee and chess. No Knight fought for long in Muslim lands who did not gain a healthy respect for his adversary and his culture.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## wtf

Desertfalcon said:


> I agree with your take on it *wtf*, but I would say "love-hate" when it comes to Muslims. Through the long battles between Christendom and Islam, we in the West "borrowed" everything we could from the Islamic world. From mathematics and medicine to coffee and chess. No Knight fought for long in Muslim lands who did not gain a healthy respect for his adversary and his culture.



What's amazing is the exact same ideas spreading and developing from Islam into the Knights who were fighting them .

The holy books of Islam had banned interest payments, but they had pretty amazing "project finance". They had Wadiah (deposits), Sukuks (bonds now, but almost like Project based funding). Even more interesting is the Hawala system that was prevalent even in the early Moslem period. 

You'll later see the exact same ideas in the way the Knights Templar operated. The church had banned interest payments (usury) but the Templars nicely worked around it. The thing that made them powerful, the ability to transfer money from place to place was the exact Moslem idea of Hawala but transferred from market place into fortified camps.

Oddly enough by the time Europe had learned all this stuff, the original Muslim creativity was all but destroyed. They had their dark ages just when Europe came out of its dark ages.And as history shows, Europe really ran with it,putting the ideas into universal frameworks and building strong but mutable legal codes.

BTW, Even more interestingly, you'll see very similar ideas in really old Chinese finance. They seemed to have invented almost everything before the rest of the world did, but they lost interest in those ideas very fast too. (by around the time of Christ, they had abandoned their original paper money).
Or maybe the Silk route had something to do with the ideas spreading and the ideas never died.


----------



## TexasJohn

Desertfalcon said:


> It's probably been covered already, but I wanted to give what I know. I am a member of the Knights of Columbus and we are "real" Knights, recognized by the Church, although we are not a military order. We are primarily a charitable and fraternal order. We have a military structure and rank. We are bound, as all Catholic Knights, to the defense of the faith and our Holy Church. The Church does still have military orders however and it also "knights" people directly. I don't know of any actual "Templar" orders that are recognized by Rome, but the other ancient orders such as the Knights of Malta, still exist and are influential. The Masons, although they may use such designations as "Templars", have no real connection with them and are not a religious body, as *John* from Texas has explained. As a Catholic, I am forbidden from joining the Masons. I had no idea that there were Muslims who were also Masons. Interesting.



I just had the most interesting conversation with a good friend of mine here at work who happens to be a Knights Colombus. The Knights Templar also have a degree for Knights of Malta. Now here is the amazing thing. The 2 degrees are IDENTICAL! we traded some thoughts of the final ceremony ( Templar in my case). The similarites ( we could only go so far) of the ceremony, swords, etc. including the toast are real close.

Turns out when Henry VIII was kicked out of the Catholic Church he took upon himself the tile of " defender and propagator of the faith". Both the KT and the KC take an oath to defend "Christianity over any other religion". Greg, my friend thinks it's quite possible that the Knights of Columbus being a younger outfit drew heavily from the KT. 

Our roots / paths may have diverged as part of the Catholic vs Protestant thing.

I have a real interesting email Greg sent me I can send you if you PM me your email address.

As a Mason you can be of any religion, however once you join the York Rite you HAVE to be a Christian.

Oddly enough, I am forbidden to join the Knights of Colombus....


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

If I remember correctly---we had freemason lodges in pakistan till the 70's. There were pakistani freemasons---till Mr Bhutto ( daddy Bhutto ) came into power---he banned the freemasons from pakistan---what for---a personal grudge or something.


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> Well, my uncle who is a staunch muslim, is also a free mason. Although I personally found it weird that he joined, I was surprised that as a muslim he actually could.



I think people from all religions can become a freemason . You just have to believe in the Ultimate Architect of the Universe(God)


----------



## TexasJohn

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> I think people from all religions can become a freemason . You just have to believe in the Ultimate Architect of the Universe(God)



Absolutely correct!!


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> It's probably been covered already, but I wanted to give what I know. I am a member of the Knights of Columbus and we are "real" Knights, recognized by the Church, although we are not a military order. We are primarily a charitable and fraternal order. We have a military structure and rank. We are bound, as all Catholic Knights, to the defense of the faith and our Holy Church. The Church does still have military orders however and it also "knights" people directly. I don't know of any actual "Templar" orders that are recognized by Rome, but the other ancient orders such as the Knights of Malta, still exist and are influential. The Masons, although they may use such designations as "Templars", have no real connection with them and are not a religious body, as John from Texas has explained. As a Catholic, I am forbidden from joining the Masons. I had no idea that there were Muslims who were also Masons. Interesting.



Ya Muslims are in freemasonary . Alot of people living in Saudia Arabia are freemasons . 
But i have to agree with texas john . Apart from these scary stories i never heared that freemasons are working for the Charity. I just always heared about the negative aspect of the org. Can you tell the internal functioning and rankings of the Freemasons, i mean to which God they actually reffer to and whos the boss.


----------



## Desertfalcon

TexasJohn said:


> I just had the most interesting conversation with a good friend of mine here at work who happens to be a Knights Colombus. The Knights Templar also have a degree for Knights of Malta. Now here is the amazing thing. The 2 degrees are IDENTICAL! we traded some thoughts of the final ceremony ( Templar in my case). The similarites ( we could only go so far) of the ceremony, swords, etc. including the toast are real close.
> 
> Turns out when Henry VIII was kicked out of the Catholic Church he took upon himself the tile of " defender and propagator of the faith". Both the KT and the KC take an oath to defend "Christianity over any other religion". Greg, my friend thinks it's quite possible that the Knights of Columbus being a younger outfit drew heavily from the KT.
> 
> Our roots / paths may have diverged as part of the Catholic vs Protestant thing.
> 
> I have a real interesting email Greg sent me I can send you if you PM me your email address.
> 
> As a Mason you can be of any religion, however once you join the York Rite you HAVE to be a Christian.
> 
> Oddly enough, I am forbidden to join the Knights of Colombus....



Well, yes, you cannot be a faithful Catholic and be a Mason, LoL. Our problem is not with the Masons per say, but with the Reformation/Enlightenment ideas they historically promoted. For us, it's all been down hill since the Reformation..LoL. You are correct though that the KoC did borrow from the Masons. Fr. McGivney, a priest from Rhode Island, started the order in an effort to combat the bigotry against Catholic immigrants at that time in America, (AD 1882). It has become the largest order of Catholic Knights in the world, although it's members are mostly from the Americas and the Philippines. I would be surprised that there is a "Templar" order within the Knights of Malta, as they have always been two separate and rival orders. The KoM are actually called the Knights of St. John Hospitallers, and they are a big deal. former Director of Central Intelligence, Mr. Casey and Gen. Alexander Haig were members for example. I will PM you my e-mail if you will send me that info. It sounds interesting.


----------



## Desertfalcon

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Ya Muslims are in freemasonary . Alot of people living in Saudia Arabia are freemasons .
> But i have to agree with texas john . Apart from these scary stories i never heared that freemasons are working for the Charity. I just always heared about the negative aspect of the org. Can you tell the internal functioning and rankings of the Freemasons, i mean to which God they actually reffer to and whos the boss.



That is a good question *Nitro*. I think *John* will have to answer. As for us Catholic Knights, our Lord and Master is the same as yours I suspect. _Allah, Most Compassionate, the Beneficent, the Gracious._ May His name be praised!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

So---the imprint on the shroud---is that of Jacque de Molay.


----------



## TexasJohn

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> So---the imprint on the shroud---is that of Jacque de Molay.



Unless you can back up that claim, I'm afraid I'd have to chuckle!!


----------



## TexasJohn

Desertfalcon said:


> That is a good question *Nitro*. I think *John* will have to answer. As for us Catholic Knights, *our Lord and Master is the same as yours *I suspect. _Allah, Most Compassionate, the Beneficent, the Gracious._ May His name be praised!



That's correct - The Supreme Architect of the Universe can have many names - that does not change his role.

All religions appear to proscribe to the common rules that I see written in the Bible. To clarify, the Ten Commandments are common to all religions, and indeed to a greater way of life.

That is why the Masons define God "as you know him" - whatever name you choose to call him. Whatever your religion, culture etc. 

Most people miss this simple fact.


----------



## MastanKhan

TexasJohn said:


> Unless you can back up that claim, I'm afraid I'd have to chuckle!!




Hi,

Oh no---I am not claiming---I am just asking---as a templar---what do you say to that.


----------



## great one

I have a question that is indirectly related, why were the Iluminati so against the Tsar of Russa?


----------



## TexasJohn

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Oh no---I am not claiming---I am just asking---as a templar---what do you say to that.



Given that him and his buddy were burned at the stake their ashes and bones ground to dust, and scattered into the river Siene (Paris), the chances of him leaving an imprint on any shroud are slim.

I am assuming you mean the shroud of Turin.


----------



## TexasJohn

great one said:


> I have a question that is indirectly related, why were the Iluminati so against the Tsar of Russa?



Conspiracy theories abound one popular one is that the Iluminati in England and France wanted to invade the US during the civil war. The Tsar was a close friend of Abraham Lincoln and warned of military action if they did....whatever!!


----------



## great one

It is also true that people such as Lenin and Trotsky were high level occultists who were in touch with some secret brotherhoods. The ideas of the Russian revolution which aimed to destory religion were first tested in the French revolution.

In the French revolution the Iluminati were instrumental in creating the first Atheist revolution. Napoleon also opposed many powerful economic families in Europe such as the Rothschild which was the reason for the British attacking the French.

The bank of England is controlled by external creditors such as the Rothschilds which provided some funding to the Bolsheviks. 

Now the question I have is which secret societies oppose the Iluminati and which support them?

Is the Catholic Church powerful enough to oppose the Iluminati and if they did what would there relation be to the freemasons who also oppose the Iluminati?


----------



## TexasJohn

I have no evidence of the actual existence of the Illuminati. It is a term I hear often, but....


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

I have question that Does Freemasons belive on the judjment day as laid down in Quran and other Holy books. 
And what is your stance Regardin the Dajjal. Our Prophet Mohammad(Peace Be Upon Him) has pridicted that when the end of the world will come nearer a one eyed man(Dajjal) will emerge from the Land of Israel. He will be very genious and people will consider him as God then he will be Murdered by Hazrat Essa(Jesus) who will be sent down to Earth From heavens. This is our Belief.


----------



## Desertfalcon

I don't know about the Freemasons *Nitro*, but that is similar to our Christian book of Revelation. The "Anti-Christ" will come upon the world, we don't know where from necessarily, and he will appear as a peacemaker. He will fool people into believing he is a holy man and people and governments will give away their freedom to him. He will turn on them and evil will rule for a time. In the last days of Judgment, Jesus will come, we believe that Michael Archangel, (_Mikha'il_), will actually lead the forces of heaven in the final judgment, but the evil one will be destroyed and Jesus will have His victory.


----------



## TexasJohn

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> I have question that Does Freemasons belive on the judjment day as laid down in Quran and other Holy books.
> And what is your stance Regardin the Dajjal. Our Prophet Mohammad(Peace Be Upon Him) has pridicted that when the end of the world will come nearer a one eyed man(Dajjal) will emerge from the Land of Israel. He will be very genious and people will consider him as God then he will be Murdered by Hazrat Essa(Jesus) who will be sent down to Earth From heavens. This is our Belief.



Freemasons as such do not have to be Christian or Muslim. That said, Knights Templar do have to be Christian.

We certainly believe in the Bible and the book of Revelations and judgement day.

I must confess I have not heard about the one eyed man.

All religions do appear to point to the same set of circumstances and events and the natural conclusion of the same.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## moha199

TexasJohn said:


> Freemasons as such do not have to be Christian or Muslim. That said, Knights Templar do have to be Christian.
> 
> We certainly believe in the Bible and the book of Revelations and judgement day.
> 
> I must confess I have not heard about the one eyed man.
> 
> All religions do appear to point to the same set of circumstances and events and the natural conclusion of the same.


Well he meant by anti christ. We Muslims and Christen scholars believe that he will be the king of Jewish people. Him being one eyes means that he will be very bias!!!!!!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## byondzenith

Salam 2 All!
1st of all we hv to admit that Zionists are our enemies, either in the form of Jews, Christians or Hindus.
All of us must b known that we, Muslims, are the winner of all Crusade Wars and these wars were against Christians.
Now what is going on?
All the Christian community is now burning in Revenge.
All Jews are feeling the pain of Defeat by Muslims, Christians (the oldest enemies of Jews) and Germanz (Napolian).
Hindus are in the inferiority complex from Muslims bcoz of their 1000 years rule in Hindustan and now they are in the fear of submissiveness.
This Triangle is now against Muslims, especially Khurasan (Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan).
They are in the fear from Islamic Bomb owned by Pakistan and Iran as well.
*I think the claim of Freemason as not a religion is wrong.
I think, Freemason is a Religion nd they all are Zionist.*
and their prospective is to govern the world by one Govt. and to destroy all other Religions of the world.
Islam Zindabad.
Pakistan Paindabad.
Allah Hafiz


----------



## TexasJohn

byondzenith said:


> Salam 2 All!
> 1st of all we hv to admit that *Zionists are our enemies, either in the form of Jews, Christians or Hindus.*
> All of us must b known that we, Muslims, are the winner of all Crusade Wars and these wars were against Christians.
> Now what is going on?
> All the Christian community is now burning in Revenge.
> All Jews are feeling the pain of Defeat by Muslims, Christians (the oldest enemies of Jews) and Germanz (Napolian).
> Hindus are in the inferiority complex from Muslims bcoz of their 1000 years rule in Hindustan and now they are in the fear of submissiveness.
> This Triangle is now against Muslims, especially Khurasan (Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan).
> They are in the fear from Islamic Bomb owned by Pakistan and Iran as well.
> *I think the claim of Freemason as not a religion is wrong.
> I think, Freemason is a Religion nd they all are Zionist.*
> and their prospective is to govern the world by one Govt. and to destroy all other Religions of the world.
> Islam Zindabad.
> Pakistan Paindabad.
> Allah Hafiz



Wow! simply -wow!! One question - what are you smoking this bright sunny morning? You obviously did not read the thread nor do you know anything about the Freemasons. Btw, I know some muslims who are also freemasons. Does that bother you?


----------



## ARSENAL6

TexasJohn said:


> . Btw, I know some muslims who are also freemasons. Does that bother you?



...and your point is ?


----------



## TexasJohn

ARSENAL6 said:


> ...and your point is ?



My point is that I am a FreeMason and we have members from all religions in our Lodge.

I recognize gibberish like this when I see it.

How can a muslim be a Zionist?


----------



## Creder

i like Assassin's creed 

but yh before the mods delete this saying pointless one liner.... one of my buddies his dad is a free mason, he was telling me they dont believe in any religion, they're just believer ... i dunno can anybody explain in "two lines" who and what free masons are.


----------



## TexasJohn

Creder said:


> i like Assassin's creed
> 
> but yh before the mods delete this saying pointless one liner.... one of my buddies his dad is a free mason, he was telling me they dont believe in any religion, they're just believer ... i dunno can anybody explain in "two lines" who and what free masons are.



Here you go:

Who are Freemasons? | freemasoninformation.com


----------



## ARSENAL6

TexasJohn said:


> My point is that I am a FreeMason and we have members from all religions in our Lodge.
> 
> I recognize gibberish like this when I see it.
> 
> How can a muslim be a Zionist?



_How can a muslim be a zionist ?_

true ! they can't ! you're a muslim or not
Muslim zionist doesn't exist.


----------



## mikkix

ARSENAL6 said:


> _How can a muslim be a zionist ?_
> 
> true ! they can't ! you're a muslim or not
> Muslim zionist doesn't exist.



Muslim zionist can exist.....
Some Muslims are freemason too..
Some elites of some muslim countries are freemasons...
Am i right texas john???


----------



## TexasJohn

Yes, Mikkix we do have muslims in our lodge.


----------



## IBRIS

In Patiala, Punjab near Patiala University, There is very old white building built during 1800. Every Year Indian Free Mason's get together for a meeting. 

I got the chance to go there and was quickly escorted out by police and guards. Building seems like ghost house but inside is well maintained and surrounding businessmen also look out for any intruders.


----------



## Spring Onion

Creder said:


> i like Assassin's creed
> 
> but yh before the mods delete this saying pointless one liner.... one of my buddies his dad is a free mason, he was telling me they dont believe in any religion, they're just believer ... i dunno can anybody explain in "two lines" who and what free masons are.



Basically they are peaceful from their ways of penetrating in the societies. They are followers of Lucifer or satan  though they claim to worship light or angle of light but many objective analysis and history has proven it that infact they worship satan


----------



## Spring Onion

IBRIS said:


> In Patiala, Punjab near Patiala University, There is very old white building built during 1800. Every Year Indian Free Mason's get together for a meeting.
> 
> I got the chance to go there and was quickly escorted out by police and guards. Building seems like ghost house but inside is well maintained and surrounding businessmen also look out for any intruders.



. There are different tires and even not all Freemasons are allowed at certain point. They have to moved up to that level


----------



## xenia

they are pagans n worship pagan gods, follow their rituals-some very obscure ones-directly they dont worship lucifer but since paganism is somehow opposite to present day theology, this is often considered so..


----------



## Solomon2

ARSENAL6 said:


> _How can a muslim be a zionist ?_
> true ! they can't ! you're a muslim or not
> Muslim zionist doesn't exist.


At least one poll has implied that showed about 20% of Arabs (mostly Muslims) support Israel as a predominantly Jewish State. link That is more Muslims than Jews!

Egypt had the highest level of support: 29%. Odd, isn't it, because expressing support for Zionism is a crime in Egypt. Then again, maybe the deep level of support for Israel is the reason why such a law was put on the books of an authoritarian state.


----------



## RescueRanger

Very Interesting Thread. I have done quite a bit of research on GrandLodge and Temple Masons here in Pakistan and their history:

GRAND LODGE - Home Page

They were banned in 1972, and most of the lodges were bunt or destroyed: 

Buildings:

In Rawalpindi if you go to on Canning Road opposite GURGSON CO, lies the ruin of the Mason Lodge. In muree you can still see the old Masonic Lodge behind the curch opposite pindi Point and they have also preserved a winter lodge near the mall.

Quetta: The PTV Office is based in the abandoned Quetta Lodge

Lahore Masonic Lodge 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonic_Temple_(Lahore)

Karachi Masonic Hall
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RTSDEluAfp4/SaWCzra5NjI/AAAAAAAAAFw/1SdySj81ms0/s320/histo+a9.jpg


----------



## TexasJohn

Rescue Ranger, what happened in 1972 to lead to their banning? Pre-Zia was it not?

Jana and Xenia - sorry y'all you just displayed complete ignorance about Masons. So be it!!


----------



## TexasJohn

IBRIS said:


> In Patiala, Punjab near Patiala University, There is very old white building built during 1800. Every Year Indian Free Mason's get together for a meeting.
> 
> I got the chance to go there and was quickly escorted out by police and guards. Building seems like ghost house but inside is well maintained and surrounding businessmen also look out for any intruders.



Perhaps if you had said the word of the Masons or the grip, your experience would have been different!! sorry about that!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## linkwheel

i was abducted by some old shady freemasons when i was a kid they told me tht i was a chick magnet and i should help them in recruiting chicks  they also invited me to join club of rome 

BTW is club of rome still in rome?

Douglasville Masonic Lodge no.289


----------



## Solomon2

RescueRanger said:


> They were banned in 1972, and most of the lodges were bunt or destroyed


It's only a popular myth that Pakistan took a wrong turn starting with Zia; things were getting bad before that, too.


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

It was Z A Bhutto who banned that organization in pakistan---reasons known better to him.

Zia had the oppurtunity to make things better---it was just a small breach in a small canal. Instead he just went on a wild tangent and totally destroyed the system as best as he could.

What caused him to create so much hatred amongst men of different beliefs---we may never know---but this man spewed so much poision into mainstream pakistan that the even today we are hurting bad.


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan

Solomon2 said:


> It's only a popular myth that Pakistan took a wrong turn starting with Zia; things were getting bad before that, too.



There was no Gun culture before 1978 in Pakistan and its not a myth but reality. 
During Afghan war between the Bear and Mujaheddin Israel played its part in supplying guns to fight the Bear too.


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It was Z A Bhutto who banned that organization in pakistan---reasons known better to him.
> 
> Zia had the oppurtunity to make things better---it was just a small breach in a small canal. Instead he just went on a wild tangent and totally destroyed the system as best as he could.
> 
> What caused him to create so much hatred amongst men of different beliefs---we may never know---but this man spewed so much poision into mainstream pakistan that the even today we are hurting bad.



But what if Freemasons are active under some other name in Pakistan. Its not Zia's time any more.


----------



## MastanKhan

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> But what if Freemasons are active under some other name in Pakistan. Its not Zia's time any more.



Hi,

Freemasons is a fraternity of men---it has no agenda of destroying pakistan. Freemasons are not against countries---if you would go to school here in the u s---you will come across different fraternities in the college campuses---for men and for women.

It creates fraternal brotherhood amongst men/women of similiar background as well as dissimiliar background---. They may grow up to become leaders or in important places, but they are not in the game of over throwing govts.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## Evil Flare

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Freemasons is a fraternity of men---it has no agenda of destroying pakistan. Freemasons are not against countries---if you would go to school here in the u s---you will come across different fraternities in the college campuses---for men and for women.
> 
> It creates fraternal brotherhood amongst men/women of similiar background as well as dissimiliar background---. They may grow up to become leaders or in important places, but they are not in the game of over throwing govts.




you are freemason ?


----------



## Meesna

MastanKhan said:


> It creates fraternal brotherhood amongst men/women



Freemasons allow women too? I remember reading on some lodge sites that they are men only.


----------



## DaRk WaVe

Meesna said:


> Freemasons allow women too? I remember reading on some lodge sites that they are men only.



In most of the world the the orders which take ppl from both sexes are not recognized, Mainstream Masonic Grand Lodges justify the exclusion of women from Freemasonry, women join associated separate bodies



> *Women in Freemasonry​*
> The subject of women and Freemasonry is complex and without an easy explanation. *Traditionally, only men can be made Freemasons* in regular Freemasonry. *Many Grand Lodges do not admit women because they believe it would break the ancient Masonic Landmarks*. However, *there are many non-mainstream Masonic bodies that do admit both men and women or exclusively women.*
> 
> Furthermore, there are many female orders associated with regular Freemasonry, such as : -
> 
> * Order of Women Freemasons
> * Order of the Eastern Star
> * Order of the Amaranth
> * White Shrine of Jerusalem
> * Social Order of Beauceant
> * Daughters of the Nile
> 
> _The United Grand Lodge of England (UGLE), Grand Lodge of Scotland and all the Grand Lodges in the United States along with other Grand Lodges which are concordant in that regular tradition, do not formally recognize any Masonic body that accepts women._
> 
> eillen-grayThe UGLE has stated since 1998 that two English women&#8217;s jurisdictions are regular in practice, except for their inclusion of women, and has indicated that, _while not formally recognized_, these bodies* may be* regarded as part of Freemasonry, when describing Freemasonry in general.
> *
> In North America, women cannot become regular Freemasons per se, but rather join associated separate bodies,* which are not Masonic in their content. These offer an extended social network around the Lodge and includes the Order of the Eastern Star, created in the United States in the mid-19th Century for adult close female relatives of Masons, and Rainbow Girls and Job&#8217;s Daughters, both for girls.
> 
> _Mainstream Masonic Grand Lodges justify the exclusion of women from Freemasonry_ for several reasons. The structure and traditions of modern day Freemasonry is based from the operative medieval stonemasons of Europe. These operative masonic guilds did not allow women to join, because of the culture of the time.
> 
> Many Grand Lodges purpose that altering this structure would completely change freemasonry. Furthermore, mainstream Grand Lodges adhere to the masonic landmarks laid out in the early 18th century and are deemed unchangeable. One of these landmarks specify that women are not to be made a mason. Finally, mainstream masons swear &#8220;not to be present at the making of a woman a Mason&#8221; in their obligations. _Many masons believe that regardless of their opinions of women in masonry, they can not break their obligation._
> 
> Women in Freemasonry | Masonic Network Blog

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## BATMAN

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It was Z A Bhutto who banned that organization in pakistan---reasons known better to him.



When i was in grade 10 (1988) i read an interview of a former ISI cheif in MAG weekly.
It was a two page interview without name.... and this fellow mentioned that the said Masonic lodge of Lahore was used by CIA and Bhutto's stance was very clear and strict.
I remember this fellow also stated that during Bhutto's era Pakistan was the biggest CIA operation base out side US and CIA was spending money like tap water.....in Pakistan on buying people in almost every walk of life..... as a result Pak currency strengthend 5 ruppes against USD.

Dear MK, Have you read book.... *synagogue of satan*

Amazon.com: The Synagogue of Satan (9781930004450): Andrew Carrington Hitchcock: Books

If yes than what is your opinion about the given historic references. In any case it si a hell of a search work!

I would like to hear your side of story about President Lincolin printing green Back dollars!

I like to listen the opinion of a person who have read it!
Any one?


----------



## Ali.009

Interesting Research


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

No, I have not read that book and No---I am not a freemason.

The agency will use any resource it can get to mask its existence---that is what happened in pakistan---by banning it, it didnot solve the problem. They just went underground to some other source---.

About the women---it was about general fraternities in college universities---men and women have their fraternities---it was not meant that women are freemasons. They might be---I don't know.

Texesjohn can shed some light on it.


----------



## TexasJohn

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> No, I have not read that book and No---I am not a freemason.
> 
> The agency will use any resource it can get to mask its existence---that is what happened in pakistan---by banning it, it didnot solve the problem. They just went underground to some other source---.
> 
> About the women---it was about general fraternities in college universities---men and women have their fraternities---it was not meant that women are freemasons. They might be---I don't know.
> 
> Texesjohn can shed some light on it.



EmoGirl was pretty accurate about the role of women in Masonry. My wife is a member of the Order of the Eastern Star herself. However women are not allowed into what we call the "Blue Lodge" - Master Masons and other degrees.

It is a fraternity, the one thing that is unusual about it is that no one will ever approach you to join. You have to ASK to be made a Mason. You also cannot have a criminal record or be guilty of "crimes of moral terpitude"


----------



## mikkix

TexasJohn said:


> Yes, Mikkix we do have muslims in our lodge.



Freemasonary are ideologies, beliefs and values,,
it is not a religion now but it is moving to become a religion???
Right???


----------



## TexasJohn

mikkix said:


> Freemasonary are ideologies, beliefs and values,,
> it is not a religion now but it is moving to become a religion???
> Right???



Actually, while it is mandatory you believe in the existence of a supreme God, it does not specify which God that should be. I am a Christian ( protestant) and my friend is a muslim. He attends his mosque and I go to my church. Never a conflict. It is mostly a charitable organization. If you have heard of the Scottish Rite hospitals worldwide ( possibly the most visible example of our work), then you have an idea of what the Masons do. Never a charge for the kids, and have some really good doctors. I don't know if there are any in Pakistan.


----------



## xenia

texas John..u r a freemason?tell me whats so secretive about this organization..they say they hold powerful hidden truths n then y so mant "conspiracy theories" (presumably) surrounding it?


----------



## TexasJohn

xenia said:


> texas John..u r a freemason?tell me whats so secretive about this organization..they say they hold powerful hidden truths n then y so mant "conspiracy theories" (presumably) surrounding it?



Yes Sir, I am. There is nothing secretive about it. Conspiracy theories abound about it though. We just kinda chuckle about it. It is true that most of the founding fathers of America were Masons, so Iam not surprised!

I am surprised Jana has not jumped in yet to call me a Satan worshipper!!

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## xenia

TexasJohn said:


> Yes Sir, I am. There is nothing secretive about it. Conspiracy theories abound about it though. We just kinda chuckle about it. It is true that most of the founding fathers of America were Masons, so Iam not surprised!
> 
> I am surprised Jana has not jumped in yet to call me a Satan worshipper!!


from my knowlege of initial american settlers from UK mainly, they were protestants n others who came for trade after getting license from king james I..then they leart to coexist..it was basically a mixture of people..how exactly did this freemason thing came in?
n am not sir..


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Then why theres so much propaganda against Freemasons in movies and all that stuff that they are here to rule the world and similar BS , Is it to create paranoia . . . . . ??


----------



## TexasJohn

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Then why theres so much propaganda against Freemasons in movies and all that stuff that they are here to rule the world and similar BS , Is it to create paranoia . . . . . ??



I think it is good movie material!! National treasure, DaVinci code, etc.


----------



## xenia

TexasJohn said:


> I think it is good movie material!! National treasure, DaVinci code, etc.



n lately _the lost symbol_
u dint answer me!


----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

TexasJohn said:


> I think it is good movie material!! National treasure, DaVinci code, etc.



Funny ppl realy endup believing all that . 

What i was asking is Freemasons are good people than why theres so much bad against there name.??


----------



## BATMAN

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> No, I have not read that book and No---I am not a freemason.
> 
> The agency will use any resource it can get to mask its existence---that is what happened in pakistan---by banning it, it didnot solve the problem. They just went underground to some other source---.
> 
> About the women---it was about general fraternities in college universities---men and women have their fraternities---it was not meant that women are freemasons. They might be---I don't know.
> 
> Texesjohn can shed some light on it.



Dear MK, I never asked if you are free mason! seems like mis-understanding.
But you didn't shared your opinion about the descion of President Lincolin to print 'green back'.

Interview, which i quoted was what i once read and never forgot... i will not go in details about what could be the compelling reasons for a retired ISI head to lie about an operation against a cult society.

But, when you find time please, do read the book about. it as written by an American non-Muslim author and a lot of hardwork.


----------



## BATMAN

TexasJohn said:


> I think it is good movie material!! National treasure, DaVinci code, etc.



And tremendous opposition to such movies!!!!


----------



## Jigs

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Then why theres so much propaganda against Freemasons in movies and all that stuff that they are here to rule the world and similar BS , Is it to create paranoia . . . . . ??



I thought we had the Bilderberg's for that. 

Bilderberg Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## TexasJohn

xenia said:


> n lately _the lost symbol_
> u dint answer me!



Lost symbol? I don't understand..


----------



## TexasJohn

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> Funny ppl realy endup believing all that .
> 
> What i was asking is Freemasons are good people than why theres so much bad against there name.??



I think a lot of that must be the legends that evolved over time about the Masons, the Templars ( I am one of those too), and the various tales that have spun off about the Ark of the covenant, holy grail, pyramids, etc. Pretty soon the human imagination takes over.

My very own uncle gives me a earful ( whenever I let him) about belonging to a "secret cult" simply because I am silent when he asks what we do in the Lodge. Sometimes I go ahead and have fun with it! What the hey...

Family asks me often enough if I am STILL a good Christian...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## DaRk WaVe

TexasJohn said:


> Yes Sir, I am. There is nothing secretive about it. Conspiracy theories abound about it though. We just kinda chuckle about it. It is true that most of the founding fathers of America were Masons, so Iam not surprised!
> 
> I am surprised Jana has not jumped in yet to *call me a Satan worshipper!!*



& i saw Jana & her likes don't even know difference b/w Lucifer & satan, they think Lucifer & Satan are same 

Don't mind Jana, plz


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan




----------



## H2O3C4Nitrogen

Jigs said:


> I thought we had the Bilderberg's for that.
> 
> Bilderberg Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



you forgot to mention the Rothschilds and the Rockfellers


----------



## Jigs

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> you forgot to mention the Rothschilds and the Rockfellers



Rockefeller attends the Bilderberg meetings. President Obama also went to the one this year i believe. Microsoft and IBM top guys also attend them. Along with NATO top brass.


----------



## TexasJohn

Jigs said:


> Rockefeller attends the Bilderberg meetings. President Obama also went to the one this year i believe. Microsoft and IBM top guys also attend them. Along with NATO top brass.



Mostly just a brainstorming / partying session. No need for the press there. But that's how all conspiracy theories start.. "what no press?? what are they up to"??

Would you invite the press for a private party?? wondering...


----------



## Jigs

TexasJohn said:


> Mostly just a brainstorming / partying session. No need for the press there. But that's how all conspiracy theories start.. "what no press?? what are they up to"??
> 
> Would you invite the press for a private party?? wondering...



Of course not and i am not one for conspiracy theories but it is still interesting to speculate what exactly is discussed since some of the worlds most powerful people come together to discuss matters for a few days.


----------



## TexasJohn

The list of antendees changes every year based on what the group feels the need to discuss. I look at it sort of like a high level corporate meeting of say directors of any large company. The employees may not be privy to the discussions. Wheras some policy decisions could be made in a company, it would be hard to make wordwide policy decisions especially as the invitees change every year and every countries' representatives have their own fish to fry. That's why I called it a brain storming session, nothing else.


----------



## Jigs

TexasJohn said:


> The list of antendees changes every year based on what the group feels the need to discuss. I look at it sort of like a high level corporate meeting of say directors of any large company. The employees may not be privy to the discussions. Wheras some policy decisions could be made in a company, it would be hard to make wordwide policy decisions especially as the invitees change every year and every countries' representatives have their own fish to fry. That's why I called it a brain storming session, nothing else.



Yes but if you look into it more only people from countries of influence are invited. Then again you could be completely right and it could be a brain storming session. It could also be a place where serious matters/deals are discussed/cut under the table between certain attendees. Or big matters discussed openly though because of how many different people of opinion are invited that wouldn't really be possible without debate.


----------



## linkwheel

The Rothschilds have a history of funding both sides in a war. 

After all, it's the most profitable business out there. They like to bankrupt countries and then lend them gold and set up central banking control to rule over the proles. 

You won't find these people listed on any "Most Rich" lists. 

They have been in control for over 250 years and operate on an entirely different level. 

Accounting for the Rothschild Wealth and Influence 

Morton (1962) noted that the Rothschild wealth was estimated at over $6 billion US in 1850. Not a significant amount in today's dollars; however, consider the potential future value compounded over 147 years! 

Taking $6 billion (and assuming no erosion of the wealth base) and compounding that figure at various returns on investment (a conservative range of 4% to 8%) would suggest the following net worth of the Rothschild family enterprise: 


$1.9 trillion US (@ 4%) 
$7.8 trillion US (@ 5%) 
$31.5 trillion US (@ 6%) 
$125,189.1 trillion US (@ 7%) 
$491,409.0 trillion US (@ 8%) 



To give these figures some perspective consider these benchmarks: 

A little of $300 billion US buys every ounce of gold in every central bank in the world 

U.S. M3 money supply August 1997 was $5.2 trillion 
U.S. debt is currently $5.4 trillion. 
U.S. GDP (1997; 2nd Q.) is $8.03 trillion. 

Currency Chaos and Financial Collapse


----------



## untitled

Hi 

Did you know Yasser Arafat and Mustafa Kemal Ataturk were freemasons? So was Donald Bradman


----------



## n_advocate

Dears, 
Though you people have said a lot about the history of freemasons yet i wonder to find their current objectives. Are there any freemansons in pakistan nowadays. Has there been a convert from freemasonary who might have or is ready to tell the truth about freemasonary. I think the world of freemasonary is shrouded in clouds and all that the people are saying are just presumptions. There must be someone to tell us the truth about them. 
if there is any one who can answer me, then please my address is (n_advocate@yahoo.com)
waiting


----------



## farazjaved

Hi, everyone, Im new here so can't post pictures. If you want to know about history of freemasonry in Pakistan, just go to maps.google.com, and write GPO Building Lahore...switch to satellite mode, zoom in, and u'll get ur answers.

Regarding the Freemasons presence or someone declaring he's a freemason, all I can say is that its a secret society with lots of secrets...so don't take anyone's word ... they have levels and not every freemason knows everything... especially someone who says "im a freemason"


----------



## Najam Khan

varigeo said:


> Hi
> 
> Did you know Yasser Arafat and Mustafa Kemal Ataturk were freemasons? So was Donald Bradman


 
Yeah.How about Naseem Ashraf, former chairman of PCB.?


----------

